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<posthistory>
  <row Id="1" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1" RevisionGUID="91f282cd-bbc0-4d3b-9a57-32ff2ad3c4e6" CreationDate="2015-04-28T15:51:47.600" UserId="9" Text="I know that much of Greek mythology was passed on by word of mouth but someone must have been the first to collect this in one source.  What was that Compendium and is there a version available in modern English?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1" RevisionGUID="91f282cd-bbc0-4d3b-9a57-32ff2ad3c4e6" CreationDate="2015-04-28T15:51:47.600" UserId="9" Text="Where can I find the earliest literary compendium for the Greek Pantheon?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1" RevisionGUID="91f282cd-bbc0-4d3b-9a57-32ff2ad3c4e6" CreationDate="2015-04-28T15:51:47.600" UserId="9" Text="|greek|reference-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2" RevisionGUID="6276dad9-a023-4dbd-9e77-6e0c2d1396d7" CreationDate="2015-04-28T15:57:27.380" UserId="13" Text="I know that the Ancient Greeks built temples for a lot of the major children of Chronus, such as the [Temple of Zeus][1] and the [Temple of Hera][2]. Were temples built for all of the children of Chronus, or were they only built for the major ones? If some were left out, is there any indication of why?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Zeus,_Olympia&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Hera,_Olympia" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2" RevisionGUID="6276dad9-a023-4dbd-9e77-6e0c2d1396d7" CreationDate="2015-04-28T15:57:27.380" UserId="13" Text="Did the Greeks build temples for all of the children of Chronus (i.e. Zeus, Hera, etc.)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2" RevisionGUID="6276dad9-a023-4dbd-9e77-6e0c2d1396d7" CreationDate="2015-04-28T15:57:27.380" UserId="13" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3" RevisionGUID="033e8aa7-35ea-4e88-86ef-e74a0862114e" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:06:15.057" UserId="13" Text="I know in mythologies such as Greek mythology, gods and goddesses would act as patrons. For example, Athena was the patron goddess of Athens. Did the gods and goddesses in Norse mythology have any sort of similar patronage system, whether based on region or (like with Catholic saints) based on the profession of a person?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3" RevisionGUID="033e8aa7-35ea-4e88-86ef-e74a0862114e" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:06:15.057" UserId="13" Text="Did the Gods and Goddesses in Norse mythology act as patron gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3" RevisionGUID="033e8aa7-35ea-4e88-86ef-e74a0862114e" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:06:15.057" UserId="13" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4" RevisionGUID="a0bbf9ec-a10f-44d9-9efe-7b85d7b6f58a" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:07:07.237" UserId="16" Text="According to [Wikipedia][1] (here's my grain of salt. Please take it :) ), &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;the only general mythographical handbook to survive from Greek antiquity was the Library of Pseudo-Apollodorus.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also good to note, the work is incomplete. A portion of the third volume has been lost.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5" RevisionGUID="884bcb1a-77e7-4788-a86d-46bc45862188" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:08:40.040" UserId="26" Text="In the legend of Theseus and the Minotaur, we know that the Minotaur dwelled at the centre of the maze built by Icarus and Dedalus. However, the creature itself (part man, part bull) doesn't show up in any other well-known legends?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was this Minotaur the only being like him, or was he part of a larger &quot;race&quot; of creatures?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5" RevisionGUID="884bcb1a-77e7-4788-a86d-46bc45862188" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:08:40.040" UserId="26" Text="Was the Minotaur a single being, or a race?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5" RevisionGUID="884bcb1a-77e7-4788-a86d-46bc45862188" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:08:40.040" UserId="26" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="18" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7" RevisionGUID="e8676272-c448-4f61-9d94-45c2b3daddea" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:11:58.093" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="Many of the Gods were bisexual so how many male lovers did Zeus have?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="19" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7" RevisionGUID="e8676272-c448-4f61-9d94-45c2b3daddea" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:11:58.093" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="How many male lovers did Zeus have?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="20" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7" RevisionGUID="e8676272-c448-4f61-9d94-45c2b3daddea" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:11:58.093" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="27" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10" RevisionGUID="2c1fc460-2b0a-448a-98e0-bb0dce84b20c" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:21:01.033" UserId="29" Text="I have read numerous times that some Norse Warriors, upon death, would go in Fólkvangr, while some others would go to Valhalla. How was it decided, which one would go to which place? And why did the need to have many &quot;paradises&quot; (whatever you many call it) exist?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Citing Wikipedia:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Norse mythology, Fólkvangr (Old Norse &quot;field of the host&quot; or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;people-field&quot; or &quot;army-field&quot;) is a meadow or field ruled over by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the goddess Freyja where half of those that die in combat go upon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; death, while the other half go to the god Odin in Valhalla." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="28" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10" RevisionGUID="2c1fc460-2b0a-448a-98e0-bb0dce84b20c" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:21:01.033" UserId="29" Text="Fólkvangr and Valhalla" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="29" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10" RevisionGUID="2c1fc460-2b0a-448a-98e0-bb0dce84b20c" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:21:01.033" UserId="29" Text="|norse|valhalla|folkvangr|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="30" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10" RevisionGUID="4d8d8f75-f51d-4dfb-861f-c1cba37ea8b3" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:27:43.060" UserId="29" Comment="added 61 characters in body" Text="I have read numerous times that some Norse Warriors, upon death, would go in Fólkvangr, while some others would go to Valhalla. How was it decided, which one would go to which place? And why did the need to have many &quot;paradises&quot; (whatever you many call it) exist?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Citing [Wikipedia][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Norse mythology, Fólkvangr (Old Norse &quot;field of the host&quot; or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;people-field&quot; or &quot;army-field&quot;) is a meadow or field ruled over by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the goddess Freyja where half of those that die in combat go upon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; death, while the other half go to the god Odin in Valhalla.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%B3lkvangr" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="31" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="11" RevisionGUID="7fb18c42-1541-4fbf-9346-fdbaf3436228" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:28:51.577" UserId="34" Text="In Greek mythology the word Titan and God seem to be used interchangeably. For example Zeus is a God, but Cronus his father was a Titian. So what is the difference between a Titian and a God in Greek mythology? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="32" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="11" RevisionGUID="7fb18c42-1541-4fbf-9346-fdbaf3436228" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:28:51.577" UserId="34" Text="What is the diffrence between a God and a Titan?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="33" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="11" RevisionGUID="7fb18c42-1541-4fbf-9346-fdbaf3436228" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:28:51.577" UserId="34" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="34" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="12" RevisionGUID="79eef251-9254-453e-97d6-2807010bad9c" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:29:40.317" UserId="33" Text="Today, many people are aware of &quot;genies&quot; as beings from Arabic myth, mostly thanks to Disney's _Aladdin_. Other works of fantasy have often co-opted djinn as creatures in their worlds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But [Disney's depiction of a genie][1] is, shall we say, cartoonish, and surely does not resemble the djinn of Arabic mythology. How were they traditionally depicted (in terms of their physical portrayal)? Textual sources and art would both be helpful here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Os6Fr.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="35" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="12" RevisionGUID="79eef251-9254-453e-97d6-2807010bad9c" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:29:40.317" UserId="33" Text="How were djinn traditionally depicted in pre-Islamic Arabic myth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="36" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="12" RevisionGUID="79eef251-9254-453e-97d6-2807010bad9c" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:29:40.317" UserId="33" Text="|arabic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="37" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="13" RevisionGUID="701bdbb1-312f-4516-8023-638def0c03d8" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:35:29.493" UserId="33" Text="The _Kojiki_ (_Record of Ancient Matters_) is the oldest surviving work of Japanese mythology (and, indeed, the oldest surviving work in the Japanese language, period), and as I understand it, much of our understanding of early Japanese mythology (the creation myths, the mythological emperors, etc.) comes from it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do we have reason to believe that there were earlier, non-surviving written works that collected Japanese myths? For example, do any early texts claim that such-and-such story is narrated in some other work that we no longer have any copies of?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="38" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="13" RevisionGUID="701bdbb1-312f-4516-8023-638def0c03d8" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:35:29.493" UserId="33" Text="Do we know of the existence of Japanese mythological texts that predate the Kojiki?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="39" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="13" RevisionGUID="701bdbb1-312f-4516-8023-638def0c03d8" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:35:29.493" UserId="33" Text="|japanese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="40" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4" RevisionGUID="81d8552b-fea7-43f9-a230-3587cd287414" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:36:46.167" UserId="16" Comment="moar detail!" Text="According to [Wikipedia][1] (here's my grain of salt. Please take it :) ), &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;the only general mythographical handbook to survive from Greek antiquity was the Library of Pseudo-Apollodorus.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also good to note, the work is incomplete. There are three (known) books fallling under this umbrella. A portion of the third volume has been lost. [This site][2] shows the chapters by text ending at Thesus, similar to the Wikipedia posting. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The book is a compilation, taking pieces from ancient Greek epics and plays. This excerpt lists some of the genealogy of the titans:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;[1.1.3] And again he begat children by Earth, to wit, the Titans as they are named: Ocean, Coeus, Hyperion, Crius, Iapetus, and, youngest of all, Cronus; also daughters, the Titanides as they are called: Tethys, Rhea, Themis, Mnemosyne, Phoebe, Dione, Thia.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus1.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="41" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="14" RevisionGUID="e47d217b-5beb-413a-9d56-e4c6e2c5b875" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:39:31.120" UserId="38" Text="In Greek Mythology, the Minotaur was a singular creature, the man/bull hybrid offspring of King Minos' wife. Minotaur is a proper noun meaning &quot;bull of Minos&quot;, while the creature itself was known as Asterion in its native Crete. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The use of Minotaur as a *species* name, and the idea that more of these creatures exist, is a purely 20th Century concept, exampled in such works as *The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe* and Thomas Burnett Swann's *Minotaur Trilogy*. In Dante's *Inferno* (14th C) he is still very much the singular Minotaur. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See [here][1] for various references from Classical sources about the Minotaur as a singular creature. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Ther/Minotauros.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="42" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="11" RevisionGUID="da464444-ea6f-4ddc-8ad0-f95b3cf91b5e" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:42:51.480" UserId="38" Comment="corrected spelling " Text="In Greek mythology the word Titan and God seem to be used interchangeably, for example Zeus is a God, but Cronus his father was a Titan. So what is the difference between a Titan and a God in Greek mythology? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="43" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="11" RevisionGUID="da464444-ea6f-4ddc-8ad0-f95b3cf91b5e" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:42:51.480" Comment="Proposed by 38 approved by 34 edit id of 2" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="44" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="15" RevisionGUID="47cf17a1-3df5-4b77-8bfe-831bc3801a91" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:44:17.923" UserId="33" Text="It is well-known today that many peoples trace their origin back to a group of people known as the Proto-Indo-Europeans, who probably lived c. 4000 BCE. Among them are some of the most mythologically-rich cultures in the world - most of Europe (including the Greeks and Romans); northern India; and also the Persians. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Much work has been done in reconstructing the shared language of the PIE people; what about their mythology? I am aware of some weak but well-substantiated connections, such as the fact that the Norse Æsir and the Hindu Asuras were probably the same group of beings at one point. Have we managed to reconstruct any narratives that putatively are derived from common PIE myths?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="45" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="15" RevisionGUID="47cf17a1-3df5-4b77-8bfe-831bc3801a91" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:44:17.923" UserId="33" Text="Are there any myths we can plausibly trace back to a common Proto-Indo-European ancestor?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="46" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="15" RevisionGUID="47cf17a1-3df5-4b77-8bfe-831bc3801a91" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:44:17.923" UserId="33" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="47" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="16" RevisionGUID="00699ed1-fd71-4f52-bf3c-ec5e8b3853d0" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:51:59.180" UserId="33" Text="The cultural exchange between the Greeks (under Alexander, at first) and the Buddhists of northwestern India is known to have had impacts on both parties. I'm aware of some theological influences, at least, in that some features of Mahayana (e.g. the existence of an elaborate pantheon) are thought to have been influenced by features of the ancient Greek religion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On a mythological level, though, I am unaware of any cases where a Greek narrative was altered to incorporate some mythological feature borrowed from the Buddhists, or vice versa. Were there any such cases? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="48" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="16" RevisionGUID="00699ed1-fd71-4f52-bf3c-ec5e8b3853d0" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:51:59.180" UserId="33" Text="Were any Buddhist narratives ever folded into the myths of the Greeks, or vice versa?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="49" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="16" RevisionGUID="00699ed1-fd71-4f52-bf3c-ec5e8b3853d0" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:51:59.180" UserId="33" Text="|greek|buddhist|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="50" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="17" RevisionGUID="513e9261-3b5c-44c6-a353-334070c0ef77" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:52:59.307" UserId="29" Text="The word `Titan` is used to denote a class of mythological entities that existed before `Gods` were born and Titans are usually used to describe the creation of the world. All titans were born from Oranos (Sky) and Gaia (Earth), which were the first mythological creatures to be created when the world was formed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;After them, Cronus was born, the cunning, youngest and the most terrifying of his her children (Gaia's) and hated his strong father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`Cronus` was one of their children and since `Oranos` considered `Cronus` monstrous, he imprisoned him in the depths of the earth. `Cronus` was able to escape and soon seized power and became the king of the Titans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All mythological creatures of that generation are called `Titans`. `Gods` are the children of the Titans. Specifically, Zeus was born from `Cronus` and `Rea`. Since `Cronus` feared that some time his childrens would try to seize power, he would eat them, but Rea managed to save Zeus and he tried to seize power when he grew up. The series of events that followed is known as `Titanomachy` (battle of the Titans), in which the `Gods` defeated the `Titans` and became the kings of the world." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="52" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="18" RevisionGUID="bfb8e996-4b70-4d21-b895-af3e757f61e8" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:58:10.430" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="Most Egyptian Gods had animal heads.  Why was this so?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="53" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="18" RevisionGUID="bfb8e996-4b70-4d21-b895-af3e757f61e8" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:58:10.430" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="Why did Egyptian Gods have animal heads?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="54" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="18" RevisionGUID="bfb8e996-4b70-4d21-b895-af3e757f61e8" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:58:10.430" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="55" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="19" RevisionGUID="d0f88b85-f131-4066-b232-9e9ef0f91f63" CreationDate="2015-04-28T16:58:42.587" UserId="38" Text="A 'god' is synonymous to a 'deity'; the Titans and Titanessas *were* gods, they were members of the second order of divine beings - after Gaia and Uranus, and the other primordial deities. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cronus and his fellow Titans comprised the first Ancient Greek pantheon, which the younger generation of gods including Zeus would later usurp, as the Titans usurped the primordial gods before them. (For more information on this concept of change in dominant deities, read up on the theory of [The Golden Age][1], particularly that of Hesiod, who also wrote the only surviving account of the Titans in his [Theogany][2].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for *why* the Titans have their own order name as opposed to Zeus et al who are simply 'gods', there is debate as to the exact etymology of the word 'titan' but this quote from Hesiod's *Theogany* states:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;But their father, great Ouranos, called them Titans by surname, rebuking his sons, whom he had begotten himself; for he said they had strained (τιταίνοντας) in their wickedness to perform a mighty deed, and at some later time there would be vengeance (τίσιν) for this.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However this is not to say Hesiod was correct; he himself was writing long after the supposed Golden Age ended.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Age&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theogony" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="56" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="20" RevisionGUID="0abd4200-87ba-47e7-adf7-7fadfc57d29f" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:01:14.340" UserId="33" Text="Arthurian legend features swords called &quot;Excalibur&quot; and &quot;Caliburn&quot;. It is not clear to me whether these two swords are the same entity (at minimum, the names are clearly cognate), or whether they refer to different things. Or, perhaps, at some point in history, mythographers treated them separately before later unifying them as a single thing. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In particular, is either/both of these swords the sword that Arthur pulled from the stone? And is either/both the sword that Arthur received from the Lady of the Lake?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="57" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="20" RevisionGUID="0abd4200-87ba-47e7-adf7-7fadfc57d29f" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:01:14.340" UserId="33" Text="Are Excalibur and Caliburn different swords?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="58" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="20" RevisionGUID="0abd4200-87ba-47e7-adf7-7fadfc57d29f" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:01:14.340" UserId="33" Text="|arthurian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="59" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="21" RevisionGUID="7e900360-7512-428a-b73f-818e41afd692" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:02:49.707" UserId="26" Text="The Greek Gods have their own hierarchy/timeline going on.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First were the **primordial deities**, the first beings in existence, which included Uranus and Gaia. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then, descended from the primordial deities were the **Titans**, which included Chronos and Rhea (Zeus' parents). Note that the Titans were still deities. According to Wikipedia:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Among the first generation of twelve Titans, the females were&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mnemosyne, Tethys, Theia, Phoebe, Rhea, and Themis and the males were&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Oceanus, Hyperion, Coeus, Cronus, Crius, and Iapetus.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The second generation of Titans consisted of Hyperion's children&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Helios, Selene, and Eos; Coeus' children Lelantos, Leto, and Asteria;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Iapetus' sons Atlas, Prometheus, Epimetheus, and Menoetius; Oceanus'&#xD;&#xA;&gt; daughter Metis; and Crius' sons Astraeus, Pallas, and Perses.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What you call Gods would be the **Olympians**, who later overthrew the Titans, some of whom were their own parents.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Twelve Olympians are the major deities of the Greek pantheon,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; commonly considered to be Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Demeter, Athena,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollo, Artemis, Ares, Aphrodite, Hephaestus, Hermes and either&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hestia, or Dionysus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then, there are a whole host of minor deities, who fall under the &quot;Olympian&quot; umbrella.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a family tree denoting the differences between the three classes of deity [here][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In short, they are all deities, but different generations of deities. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/1f/5d/c1/1f5dc1857de2d527c25bdbfe87099df2.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="61" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="23" RevisionGUID="959868ed-73f0-4afe-8d4f-8c3c68e848d2" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:07:14.850" UserId="31" Text="While the vast majority of Zeus's lover's were female, one of Zeus's lovers was the mortal Ganymede. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ganymede][1] is noted as the only one of Zeus's lovers to whom he granted immortality.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganymede_%28mythology%29" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="62" PostHistoryTypeId="12" PostId="17" RevisionGUID="6eeabe01-c4d6-4e5a-8b46-b622a8e3c148" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:07:33.080" UserId="29" Comment="via Vote" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:29,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;naltipar&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="63" PostHistoryTypeId="13" PostId="17" RevisionGUID="9ec0b42c-1aa1-4089-b4f0-9c7da2f47cb8" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:07:36.860" UserId="29" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:29,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;naltipar&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="64" PostHistoryTypeId="12" PostId="17" RevisionGUID="5dad26a3-37aa-48a2-8d67-9d4f6efa8de1" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:08:42.423" UserId="29" Comment="via Vote" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:29,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;naltipar&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="65" PostHistoryTypeId="13" PostId="17" RevisionGUID="bbd10fdd-943d-4c8f-9dc1-dd2ac1e500ca" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:08:54.857" UserId="29" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:29,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;naltipar&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="66" PostHistoryTypeId="12" PostId="17" RevisionGUID="888a5e73-cfd4-46a8-8bdd-af7f048b5913" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:09:16.960" UserId="29" Comment="via Vote" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:29,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;naltipar&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="67" PostHistoryTypeId="13" PostId="17" RevisionGUID="ab6d4b10-9cac-4ce9-9551-ea1fd9d96097" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:09:27.853" UserId="29" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:29,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;naltipar&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="71" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="25" RevisionGUID="4daeaeba-a2dc-4f93-92ad-010ebda1094d" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:13:14.363" UserId="38" Text="Egyptian gods were often depicted in therianthrophic – part human, part animal form, to depict the personality of that particular god/ess in a symbolic way. For example, Sekhmet, goddess of ferocious war, was sometimes shown with the head a lioness, as lions are ferocious creatures. Similarly Anubis was shown with a jackal head because the jackal was associated with the necropolis and Anubis was a god of the dead. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are also theriomorphic depictions, where gods are shown entirely in animal form.  These are quite common, and in fact were the most common representations of gods in the very earliest periods of Egyptian history. For example, Anubis as a black jackal, or Thoth as either an ibis or a white baboon. Taweret was even a hybrid of hippo, crocodile and lioness. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is the same reasoning behind why Christians equate Jesus with the lion, or why we give angels wings. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="72" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="26" RevisionGUID="936225cb-cc96-4a99-bfb4-79c5fc865894" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:13:40.813" UserId="33" Text="I don't know much about Scientology, but I hear that their version of cosmogony involves Xenu bringing a large number of humans to Earth from somewhere-or-the-other (some millions of years ago), and then killing them all with hydrogen bombs. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How does the myth describe the &quot;rebirth&quot; of the human race after everyone was killed by hydrogen bombs? Was it that some people survived to repopulate the Earth, or is there some sort of thetan shenanigans going on here?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'd try and read up on this myself, but, you know, I'm not an Operating Thetan, so this stuff is hard to find." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="73" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="26" RevisionGUID="936225cb-cc96-4a99-bfb4-79c5fc865894" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:13:40.813" UserId="33" Text="How does the Scientological creation myth describe the rebirth of humankind following Xenu's hydrogen bombing?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="74" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="26" RevisionGUID="936225cb-cc96-4a99-bfb4-79c5fc865894" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:13:40.813" UserId="33" Text="|scientology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="75" PostHistoryTypeId="12" PostId="17" RevisionGUID="b988e894-3d3f-4a72-b6c7-858bca79a8af" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:14:04.793" UserId="29" Comment="via Vote" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:29,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;naltipar&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="76" PostHistoryTypeId="13" PostId="17" RevisionGUID="2da3a22d-3e4e-4b8d-abbf-4c75f23c1aa5" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:14:38.923" UserId="29" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:29,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;naltipar&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="77" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="27" RevisionGUID="986604d9-91c6-4aef-886a-8a92497a4d2c" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:16:09.787" UserId="11" Text="Judeo-Christian lore declares humanity's protoplasts to be [Adam and Eve](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_and_Eve). Norse lore declares them to be [Ask and Embla](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ask_and_Embla).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Linguistically, these seem to be fairly similar names. Is there actually a connection there, or is it just a coincidence?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="78" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="27" RevisionGUID="986604d9-91c6-4aef-886a-8a92497a4d2c" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:16:09.787" UserId="11" Text="Adam and Eve vs. Ask and Embla" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="79" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="27" RevisionGUID="986604d9-91c6-4aef-886a-8a92497a4d2c" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:16:09.787" UserId="11" Text="|norse|judeo-christian|cross-mythology|linguistics|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="80" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="28" RevisionGUID="d978e0ba-ba62-4d95-b0fd-ba924c4bb5cc" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:19:41.073" UserId="31" Text="It's fairly easy to imagine how **Calibur**n may have migrated linguistically to Ex**calibur**, especially as spelling was not standardised until the end of the 18th Century and copying of manuscripts was a performed by hand.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They are indeed two names for the same sword. [Roman de Brut][1] has both Caliborne, and Escaliborc in various copies of the document. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_de_Brut" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="81" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="29" RevisionGUID="73f78066-8052-4f63-9317-f585d0f107d7" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:21:50.793" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="Hereacles and Perseus were two well known sons of Zeus but how many demigods did Zeus actually father?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="82" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="29" RevisionGUID="73f78066-8052-4f63-9317-f585d0f107d7" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:21:50.793" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="How many sons did Zeus father through mortal women" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="83" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="29" RevisionGUID="73f78066-8052-4f63-9317-f585d0f107d7" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:21:50.793" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="84" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="11" RevisionGUID="2471aef7-f420-481b-b5d2-a8e7c532fa76" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:24:15.093" UserId="33" Comment="spelling/cleanup" Text="In Greek mythology, the words &quot;Titan&quot; and &quot;God&quot; seem to be used interchangeably. For example, Zeus is a God, but Cronus (his father) was a Titan. So what is the difference between a Titan and a God in Greek mythology? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="85" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="11" RevisionGUID="2471aef7-f420-481b-b5d2-a8e7c532fa76" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:24:15.093" UserId="33" Comment="spelling/cleanup" Text="What is the difference between a God and a Titan?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="86" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="11" RevisionGUID="2471aef7-f420-481b-b5d2-a8e7c532fa76" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:24:15.093" Comment="Proposed by 33 approved by 34 edit id of 3" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="87" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="30" RevisionGUID="cce5f805-c3c0-4997-afed-4989d2e9f275" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:28:44.623" UserId="43" Text="It seems there is only one: **Ganymede**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've consulted these sources for a list of Zeus' lovers:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Zeus Lovers by J.M. Hunt][1]&#xD;&#xA; - [Zeus' Lovers | GreekMythology.com][2]&#xD;&#xA; - [Zeus's Love Affairs by Nancy Conner][3]&#xD;&#xA; - [Zeus's Many Lovers by Kip Wheeler][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here are his lovers, in alphabetical order:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Aegina][5], a nymph&#xD;&#xA; - [Alcmene][6], princess of Mycenae by whom Zeus fathered Heracles&#xD;&#xA; - [Callisto][7], a nymph&#xD;&#xA; - [Danaë][8], princess of Argos by whom Zeus fathered Perseus&#xD;&#xA; - [Demeter][9], goddess of the harvest&#xD;&#xA; - [Dione][10], a Titaness&#xD;&#xA; - [Electra][11], princess of Mycenae&#xD;&#xA; - [Eurynome][12], an Oceanide and Zeus' third bride, mother of the Charities&#xD;&#xA; - [Europa][13], a Phoenician woman&#xD;&#xA; - [Ganymede][14], Trojan hero&#xD;&#xA; - [Hera][15], Zeus' sister and first wife&#xD;&#xA; - [Io][16], a priestess of Hera in Argos&#xD;&#xA; - [Leda][17], a Spartan queen&#xD;&#xA; - [Leto][18], Titan goddess of motherhood&#xD;&#xA; - [Maia][19], one of the Pleiades&#xD;&#xA; - [Metis][20], a Titaness&#xD;&#xA; - [Mnemosyne][21], Titan goddess of time, and mother with Zeus of the Nine Muses&#xD;&#xA; - [Nemesis][22], goddess of revenge&#xD;&#xA; - [Persephone][23], Zeus' daughter&#xD;&#xA; - [Semele][24], princess of Thebes by whom Zeus fathered Dionysus&#xD;&#xA; - [Taygete][25], a nymph and one of the Pleiades&#xD;&#xA; - [Themis][26], Titan goddess of law&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Again, **Ganymede** is the only male on this list. But given Zeus' romantic eclecticism, it's probably safe to assume he's not the only actual male lover. The earliest version of the myth (in the *Iliad*) doesn't claim they were lovers, however.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://edweb.sdsu.edu/people/bdodge/scaffold/gg/zeuslover.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.greekmythology.com/Myths/The_Myths/Zeus's_Lovers/zeus's_lovers.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.netplaces.com/classical-mythology/zeus-and-hera-a-marriage-made-in-heaven/zeuss-love-affairs.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/documents/Gods_n_DemigodsGrk.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegina_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcmene&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callisto_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dana%C3%AB&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demeter&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dione_(Titaness)&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electra&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurynome_(Oceanid)&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganymede_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hera&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Io_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leda_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leto&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maia_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metis_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mnemosyne&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemesis_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persephone&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semele&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taygete&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Themis" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="88" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="31" RevisionGUID="fa452c2b-e70f-4db4-8670-21a575090330" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:29:00.413" UserId="46" Text="I'm assuming that the Gilgamesh myth is fairly distinct from the Mesoamerican Fountain of Youth and the Hindu *Soma*, but are there any corroborating myths or other research into the details of the plant in Gilgamesh. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The myth itself has the plant growing in or under- water, and so has obvious connections with the Lotus. Was the lotus a possibility for the time and region of the story?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="89" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="31" RevisionGUID="fa452c2b-e70f-4db4-8670-21a575090330" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:29:00.413" UserId="46" Text="What was the plant that Gilgamesh found after Utnapishtim's story?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="90" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="31" RevisionGUID="fa452c2b-e70f-4db4-8670-21a575090330" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:29:00.413" UserId="46" Text="|gilgamesh|magic-plant|the-great-flood|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="91" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="32" RevisionGUID="64fadcff-01cb-47af-b9d8-df923579931f" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:32:26.977" UserId="29" Text="`Eclipse` is probably one of the phenomena that puzzled the ancient people. How was it explained in Egyptian mythology and were there any gods connected with it (like thunders are connected to Zeus)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="92" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="32" RevisionGUID="64fadcff-01cb-47af-b9d8-df923579931f" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:32:26.977" UserId="29" Text="The signifigance of Eclipse in Egyptian Mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="93" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="32" RevisionGUID="64fadcff-01cb-47af-b9d8-df923579931f" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:32:26.977" UserId="29" Text="|egyptian|eclipse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="94" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="31" RevisionGUID="5d92a0bc-dc45-4793-9947-ed83f1b0e770" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:33:00.827" UserId="22" Comment="Corrected a tag and added &quot;Sumerian&quot;" Text="|gilgamesh|magic-plant|flood-myth|sumerian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="95" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="31" RevisionGUID="5d92a0bc-dc45-4793-9947-ed83f1b0e770" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:33:00.827" Comment="Proposed by 22 approved by 46 edit id of 5" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="96" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="33" RevisionGUID="31b42e91-2b7c-4151-9f01-da3aabda91ca" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:33:56.627" UserId="26" Text="Arthurian legend is essentially combined from a wide variety of sources.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first narrative account is from Geoffrey of Monmouth in Historia Regum Britanniae (History of the Kings of Britain), 12th Century. He wrote, in Latin, of a sword called Caliburnus, whcih was made on the isle of Avalon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Chretien de Troyes wrote (again in the 12th Century), of a sword called Escalibor or Excalibor. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Robert de Boron (late 12th/early 13th Century) wrote of the Sword in the Stone, and the idea of only the &quot;one true king&quot; being able to retrieve the sword. It isn't confirmed that this sword is Excalibur, but later versions took this story and called the sword Excalibur.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later, in the *[Post-Vulgate Cycle*][1] (13th Century), French writers attempted to bring together some of the scenes and characters of the legends (Wiki calls it a &quot;rehandling of the earlier Vulgate Cycle&quot;). In this version, the sword is called Excalibur, and is given to Arthur by the Lady of the Lake.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Le Morte d'Arthur*, by Thomas Malory, he gives both versions, and calls both Excalibur. Arthur receives the sword three different times in Le Morte, in three different ways (the stone, the lake and once in a battle). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, according to the 15th Century Alliterative Morte d'Arthur, there is a sword called Clarent, a fragile sword designed for ceremonial purposes rather than fighting. The internet (though I haven't found an original source for this) associates this with being the Sword in the Stone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In conclusion, there isn't a clear answer. The stories evolved quite a bit, and the sword that some writers took to be Excalibur was taken by others to mean Clarent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, it does seem that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Excalibur and Caliburn ***do*** seem to be the same sword. It is a linguistic evolution. Both are taken to be Arthur's &quot;main&quot; sword, regardless of writer or name.&#xD;&#xA; - The Sword in the Stone, and the one from the Lake, may or may not be the same sword.&#xD;&#xA; - Clarent is ***not*** Excalibur, and is a different sword, wielded by King Arthur at points (and later, Mordred). It ***may*** be the Sword in the Stone, but ***is not*** the sword from the Lady in the Lake.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-Vulgate_Cycle" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="97" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="34" RevisionGUID="fed9156e-2ab0-4e1b-b4a8-a3fd0bdd5b1b" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:38:24.130" UserId="33" Text="We currently live in the Kali Yuga, at least according to the Hindu conception of time. At the end of it, Kalki is supposed to descend, destroy evil, and bring an end to this mahayuga. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But there are many Kali Yugas - one for each mahayuga. Does Kalki appear at the end of _each one_, or does he only appear at the end of _this one_?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="98" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="34" RevisionGUID="fed9156e-2ab0-4e1b-b4a8-a3fd0bdd5b1b" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:38:24.130" UserId="33" Text="Does Kalki appear at the end of every Kali Yuga, or just the current one?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="99" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="34" RevisionGUID="fed9156e-2ab0-4e1b-b4a8-a3fd0bdd5b1b" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:38:24.130" UserId="33" Text="|hindu|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="100" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="19" RevisionGUID="ffb4e5a4-61b6-4bbc-bc36-8735a2452f7c" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:38:44.567" UserId="22" Comment="Edited links for non-mobile version, edited grammar" Text="A 'god' is synonymous to a 'deity'; the Titans and Titanessas *were* gods, they were members of the second order of divine beings - after Gaia and Uranus, and the other primordial deities. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cronus and his fellow Titans comprised the first Ancient Greek pantheon, which the younger generation of gods, including Zeus, would later usurp, as the Titans usurped the primordial gods before them. (For more information on this concept of change in dominant deities, read up on the theory of [The Golden Age][1], particularly that of Hesiod, who also wrote the only surviving account of the Titans in his [Theogany][2].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for *why* the Titans have their own order name as opposed to Zeus et al who are simply 'gods', there is debate as to the exact etymology of the word 'titan' but this quote from Hesiod's *Theogany* states:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;But their father, great Ouranos, called them Titans by surname, rebuking his sons, whom he had begotten himself; for he said they had strained (τιταίνοντας) in their wickedness to perform a mighty deed, and at some later time there would be vengeance (τίσιν) for this.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However this is not to say Hesiod was correct; he himself was writing long after the supposed Golden Age ended.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Age&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theogony" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="101" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="19" RevisionGUID="ffb4e5a4-61b6-4bbc-bc36-8735a2452f7c" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:38:44.567" Comment="Proposed by 22 approved by 38 edit id of 4" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="102" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="23" RevisionGUID="aeba8951-4600-4132-ad13-d5fee649b0f9" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:40:21.693" UserId="31" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="While the vast majority of Zeus's lovers were female, one of Zeus's lovers was the mortal Ganymede. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ganymede][1] is noted as the only one of Zeus's lovers to whom he granted immortality.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganymede_%28mythology%29" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="104" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="33" RevisionGUID="be00d0fc-7997-4560-8835-0bde860e637f" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:41:15.433" UserId="26" Comment="improved formatting and sources" Text="Arthurian legend is essentially combined from a wide variety of sources, and there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first narrative account is from Geoffrey of Monmouth in *[Historia Regum Britanniae][1]* (History of the Kings of Britain), 12th Century. He wrote, in Latin, of a sword called **Caliburnus**, whcih was made on the isle of Avalon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wace wrote *[Roman de Brut][2]* (12th Century), which is described as &quot;an Old French translation and versification of [Monmouth]&quot;. According to Wiki, the sword is called  Calabrum, Callibourc, Chalabrun, and Calabrun (with alternate spellings such as Chalabrum, Calibore, Callibor, Caliborne, Calliborc, and Escaliborc).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Chretien de Troyes wrote, in *[Perceval][3]*, (again in the 12th Century), of a sword called **Escalibor** or **Excalibor**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Robert de Boron (late 12th/early 13th Century), in *[Merlin][4]*, wrote of the **Sword in the Stone**, and the idea of only the &quot;one true king&quot; being able to retrieve the sword. It isn't confirmed that this sword is Excalibur, but later versions took this story and called the sword Excalibur.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later, in the *[Post-Vulgate Cycle*][5] (13th Century), French writers attempted to bring together some of the scenes and characters of the legends (Wiki calls it a &quot;rehandling of the earlier Vulgate Cycle&quot;). In this version, the sword is called **Excalibur**, and is given to Arthur by the **Lady of the Lake**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *[Le Morte d'Arthur][6]*, by Thomas Malory, he gives both versions, and calls both **Excalibur**. Arthur receives the sword three different times in *Le Morte*, in three different ways (the stone, the lake and once in a battle). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, according to the 15th Century *[Alliterative Morte Arthur][7]*, there is a sword called **Clarent**, a fragile sword designed for ceremonial purposes rather than fighting. The internet (though I haven't found an original source for this yet) associates this with being the **Sword in the Stone**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In conclusion, there isn't a clear answer. The stories evolved quite a bit, and the sword that some writers took to be Excalibur was taken by others to mean Clarent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, it does seem that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Excalibur and Caliburn ***do*** seem to be the same sword. It is a linguistic evolution. Both are taken to be Arthur's &quot;main&quot; sword, regardless of writer or name.&#xD;&#xA; - The Sword in the Stone, and the one from the Lake, may or may not be the same sword.&#xD;&#xA; - Clarent is ***not*** Excalibur, and is a different sword, wielded by King Arthur at points (and later, Mordred). It ***may*** be the Sword in the Stone, but ***is not*** the sword from the Lady in the Lake.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_Regum_Britanniae&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_de_Brut&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perceval,_the_Story_of_the_Grail&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merlin#Later_adaptations_of_the_legend&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-Vulgate_Cycle&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Morte_d%27Arthur&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliterative_Morte_Arthure" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="105" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="35" RevisionGUID="989b5618-63b3-4a3e-87e8-e16054b6f4c2" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:43:07.570" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="106" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="36" RevisionGUID="34bea4db-da45-48eb-9d72-b8c54230f1a5" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:43:07.570" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="108" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="19" RevisionGUID="fbccad11-6b15-4202-b368-b00918d0c896" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:46:09.993" UserId="38" Comment="Edited links for non-mobile version, edited grammar" Text="A 'god' is synonymous to a 'deity'; the Titans and Titanessas *were* gods, they were members of the second order of divine beings - after Gaia and Uranus, and the other primordial deities. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cronus and his fellow Titans comprised the first Ancient Greek pantheon, which the younger generation of gods, including Zeus, would later usurp, as the Titans usurped the primordial gods before them. (For more information on this concept of change in dominant deities, read up on the theory of [The Golden Age][1], particularly that of Hesiod, who also wrote the only surviving account of the Titans in his [Theogany][2].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for *why* the Titans have their own order name as opposed to Zeus et al who are simply 'gods', there is debate as to the exact etymology of the word 'titan' but this quote from Hesiod's *Theogany* states:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;But these sons whom he begot himself great Heaven used to call Titans （Strainers） in reproach, for he said that they strained  (τιταίνοντας) and did presumptuous a fearful deed, and that vengeance (τίσιν) for it would come afterwards.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Trans. Evelyn-White, [here with side-by-side Greek][3]. &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;However this is not to say Hesiod was correct; he himself was writing long after the supposed Golden Age ended.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Age&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theogony&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D207" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="109" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="37" RevisionGUID="58be5456-42a4-4e21-b7ef-b141a3cdb7dd" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:46:22.013" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="Theseus's paternity seems to be in question.  Which God fathered him? Was it Zeus or Poseidon?s" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="110" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="37" RevisionGUID="58be5456-42a4-4e21-b7ef-b141a3cdb7dd" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:46:22.013" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="Was Theseus the son of Zeus or Poseidon?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="111" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="37" RevisionGUID="58be5456-42a4-4e21-b7ef-b141a3cdb7dd" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:46:22.013" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="115" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="39" RevisionGUID="e7776ce6-b876-412b-af44-af7509d7d487" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:58:06.933" UserId="33" Text="Remember all that end-of-the-world (pseudo-)hysteria that was going on back in 2012? That corresponded to the Mayan Long Count rolling over from 12.19.19.17.19 to 13.0.0.0.0; i.e. baktun 12 ended and baktun 13 began. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did the Mayans believe that anything out of the ordinary would actually happen when a new baktun began? The Mayan civilization _did_ live to witness the end of baktun 8 and the start of baktun 9 (c. 435 CE); do any of the extant codices describe anything happening then? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="116" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="39" RevisionGUID="e7776ce6-b876-412b-af44-af7509d7d487" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:58:06.933" UserId="33" Text="What did the Mayans believe would happen when the Long Count rolled over to a new baktun, like it did on Dec 21, 2012?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="117" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="39" RevisionGUID="e7776ce6-b876-412b-af44-af7509d7d487" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:58:06.933" UserId="33" Text="|mayan|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="118" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="40" RevisionGUID="50fe2919-7fcb-4638-b5e5-31fc4124c780" CreationDate="2015-04-28T17:58:59.823" UserId="29" Text="As someone has already commented, the confusion is between Aegeus and Poseidon. This question does not have many alternate interpretations, it's just that it's never made clear, who the father of Theseus is. In [Wikipedia][1] the double paternity is addressed:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Still without a male heir, Aegeus asked the oracle at Delphi for advice. Her cryptic words were &quot;Do not loosen the bulging mouth of the wineskin until you have reached the height of Athens, lest you die of grief.&quot; (...) This puzzling oracle forced Aegeus to visit Pittheus, king of Troezen, who was famous for his wisdom and skill at expounding oracles. Pittheus understood the prophecy and introduced Aegeus to his daughter, Aethra, when Aegeus was drunk. But following the instructions of Athena in a dream, Aethra left the sleeping Aegeus and waded across to the island of Sphairia (...) and was possessed by the sea god in the night. The mix gave Theseus a combination of divine as well as mortal characteristics in his nature;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Greek version of Wikipedia, it's made clear that Aethra did sleep with Aegeus at night.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theseus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="120" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="41" RevisionGUID="800b32b9-74b3-455a-a1cb-4506a51a1338" CreationDate="2015-04-28T18:13:11.940" UserId="33" Text="One thing has always confused me about the story of Pandora. When she opened her box (or jar, whatever), all sorts of evil things escaped outside the box, and this is why we have evil in the world now. Then, she closed the box before hope could escape, so that hope remained within the box. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Doesn't this mean that the world _doesn't_ have hope, though? I thought that the &quot;moral&quot; of the story, so to speak, was that even though there's all this evil out in the world, there's still hope, so not all is lost. But that doesn't make sense if hope is still stuck inside the box." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="121" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="41" RevisionGUID="800b32b9-74b3-455a-a1cb-4506a51a1338" CreationDate="2015-04-28T18:13:11.940" UserId="33" Text="Why was it a good thing that hope remained in Pandora's box?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="122" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="41" RevisionGUID="800b32b9-74b3-455a-a1cb-4506a51a1338" CreationDate="2015-04-28T18:13:11.940" UserId="33" Text="|greek|pandora|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="125" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="41" RevisionGUID="c700a212-b4d6-452c-9363-6aead38cf8f8" CreationDate="2015-04-28T18:18:52.043" UserId="33" Comment="added 36 characters in body" Text="One thing has always confused me about the story of Pandora. When she opened her box (or jar, whatever), all sorts of evil things escaped outside the box, and this is why we have evil in the world now. Then, she closed the box before hope could escape, so that hope remained within the box. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Doesn't this mean that the world _doesn't_ have hope, though (since it's still stuck in the box)? I thought that the &quot;moral&quot; of the story, so to speak, was that even though there's all this evil out in the world, there's still hope, so not all is lost. But that doesn't make sense if hope is still stuck inside the box." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="127" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="44" RevisionGUID="9e7a0c0e-375b-4079-9c68-359d718c2d57" CreationDate="2015-04-28T18:40:21.037" UserId="29" Text="&gt; Πανδώρα (παν + δώρα): the all-gifted&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The myth of Pandora (the first mortal woman) is misinterpreted. I've seen many books claiming that hope did escape the box and, despite all evil that was spread throughout the land, people still hoped that better days would soon come. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Isiodus is the one that refers to the box (it was not a box actually, but more like a jar) and claims that Pandora (actually referring to women) is the root of all evil, because she would hurt the man with her beauty and lies.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;From her is the race of women and female kind: &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;of her is the deadly race and tribe of women who &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;live amongst mortal men to their great trouble, &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;no helpmates in hateful poverty, but only in wealth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Pandora opened the box, all evil escaped it, but Zeus held hope inside the jar by his own will. Isiodus doesn't say why hope stayed into the jar, but one (judging from Isiodus' view on women) can imply that  he meant by that, that the men would have no hope against women, for without her, they would die alone, but with her, they'd have to withstand their cunning nature." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="128" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="45" RevisionGUID="82441374-b677-4e70-82bd-4b4dff3b6d21" CreationDate="2015-04-28T18:40:35.510" UserId="26" Text="There is a [list of offspring of Zeus][1] on Wikipedia. To avoid simply repeating it, I've tried to add more detail. This list is not complete, as they are many &quot;possible offspring&quot;, and many with confused or unclear heritage, which may be Zeus', but may not.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Perseus, son of Danae, who went on to behead Medusa and save Andromeda. Conceived when Zeus was in the form of &quot;a shower of gold&quot;.&#xD;&#xA; - Heracles, son of Alcmene. Conceived while Zeus was disguised as Alcmene's husband&#xD;&#xA; - Dionysus, son of Semele. After Semele's death during her pregnancy, Zeus sewed Dionysus into his thigh, before releasing/&quot;birthing&quot; him several months later.&#xD;&#xA; - Amphion and Zethus, twin sons by Antiope. Conceived when Antiope was raped by Zeus in the form of a satyr.&#xD;&#xA; - Arcas, son of Callisto. Conceived while Zeus was disguised as Artemis, the only person Callisto would be with.&#xD;&#xA; - Tityos, a giant, son of Elara (who was not a giant - ouch). Zeus hid Elara from his jealous wife Hera beneath the Earth (it is assumed that Tityos' giant-ness was caused by this hiding, and Tityos is sometimes said to be a son of Gaia, Earth goddess).&#xD;&#xA; - Castor and Pollux, sons of Leda (conceived when Zeus was disguised as a swan)&#xD;&#xA; - Helen of Troy, daughter of Leda&#xD;&#xA; - Minos, son of Europa, and owner of *[that][2]* labyrinth&#xD;&#xA; - Myrmidon, son of Eurymedusa (said to have conceived when Zeus turned her into an ant before raping her)&#xD;&#xA; - Keroassa, daughter of Io, who later gave birth herself to a son by Poseidon who went on to found Byzantium&#xD;&#xA; - Tantalus, son of Plouto, a nymph. Known for his eternal punishment of standing in a pool with fruit hanging over him, but never quite within reach, and the water always receding before he could drink.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Lesser-known offspring:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Rhadamanthus, son of Europa, a king somewhere in the Aegean islands, sometimes considered the husband of Ariadne.&#xD;&#xA; - Sarpedon, son of Europa, king of Lycia&#xD;&#xA; - Alagonia, daughter of Europa&#xD;&#xA; - Carnus, son of Europa, and a seer&#xD;&#xA; - Arcesius, king in Ithaca&#xD;&#xA; - Thebe, daughter of Iodame, who married Ogyges&#xD;&#xA; - Epaphus, son of Io, kind of Egypt (conceived by the touch of Zeus' hand)&#xD;&#xA; - Argus, son of Niobe&#xD;&#xA; - Opus, son of Protogenia, and a king of the Epeians&#xD;&#xA; - Lacedaemon, son of Taygete, a nymph. King of Laconia and husband of Sparta&#xD;&#xA; - Magnes (first king of Magnesia) and Makednos (ancestor of Macedonians), sons of Thyia&#xD;&#xA; - Carius, son of Torrhebia - he learned music from nymphs and later taught it to the Lydians&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Possible offspring:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Dardanus, son of Electra&#xD;&#xA; - Iasion, son of Electra&#xD;&#xA; - Harmonia, daughter of Electra (according to one account - other sources call her the daughter of Ares and Aphrodite)&#xD;&#xA; - Aethlius, son of Protogenia&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus#Consorts_and_children&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minotaur" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="132" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="45" RevisionGUID="429dd935-a043-462c-ae23-aa418e31ef53" CreationDate="2015-04-28T18:45:48.337" UserId="26" Comment="added 54 characters in body" Text="There is a [list of offspring of Zeus][1] on Wikipedia. To avoid simply repeating it, I've tried to add more detail. This list is not complete, as they are many &quot;possible offspring&quot;, and many with confused or unclear heritage, which may be Zeus', but may not.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Perseus, son of Danae, who went on to behead Medusa and save Andromeda. Conceived when Zeus was in the form of &quot;a shower of gold&quot;.&#xD;&#xA; - Heracles, son of Alcmene. Conceived while Zeus was disguised as Alcmene's husband&#xD;&#xA; - Dionysus, son of Semele. After Semele's death during her pregnancy, Zeus sewed Dionysus into his thigh, before releasing/&quot;birthing&quot; him several months later.&#xD;&#xA; - Amphion and Zethus, twin sons by Antiope. Conceived when Antiope was raped by Zeus in the form of a satyr.&#xD;&#xA; - Arcas, son of Callisto. Conceived while Zeus was disguised as Artemis, the only person Callisto would be with.&#xD;&#xA; - Tityos, a giant, son of Elara (who was not a giant - ouch). Zeus hid Elara from his jealous wife Hera beneath the Earth (it is assumed that Tityos' giant-ness was caused by this hiding, and Tityos is sometimes said to be a son of Gaia, Earth goddess).&#xD;&#xA; - Castor and Pollux, sons of Leda (conceived when Zeus was disguised as a swan)&#xD;&#xA; - Helen of Troy, daughter of Leda&#xD;&#xA; - Minos, son of Europa, and owner of *[that][2]* labyrinth&#xD;&#xA; - Myrmidon, son of Eurymedusa (said to have conceived when Zeus turned her into an ant before raping her)&#xD;&#xA; - Keroassa, daughter of Io, who later gave birth herself to a son by Poseidon who went on to found Byzantium&#xD;&#xA; - Tantalus, son of Plouto, a nymph. Known for his eternal punishment of standing in a pool with fruit hanging over him, but never quite within reach, and the water always receding before he could drink.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Lesser-known offspring:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Rhadamanthus, son of Europa, a king somewhere in the Aegean islands, sometimes considered the husband of Ariadne.&#xD;&#xA; - Sarpedon, son of Europa, king of Lycia&#xD;&#xA; - Alagonia, daughter of Europa&#xD;&#xA; - Carnus, son of Europa, and a seer&#xD;&#xA; - Arcesius, king in Ithaca&#xD;&#xA; - Thebe, daughter of Iodame, who married Ogyges&#xD;&#xA; - Epaphus, son of Io, kind of Egypt (conceived by the touch of Zeus' hand)&#xD;&#xA; - Argus, son of Niobe&#xD;&#xA; - Opus, son of Protogenia, and a king of the Epeians&#xD;&#xA; - Lacedaemon, son of Taygete, a nymph. King of Laconia and husband of Sparta&#xD;&#xA; - Magnes (first king of Magnesia) and Makednos (ancestor of Macedonians), sons of Thyia&#xD;&#xA; - Carius, son of Torrhebia - he learned music from nymphs and later taught it to the Lydians&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Possible offspring:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Dardanus, son of Electra&#xD;&#xA; - Iasion, son of Electra&#xD;&#xA; - Harmonia, daughter of Electra (according to one account - other sources call her the daughter of Ares and Aphrodite)&#xD;&#xA; - Aethlius, son of Protogenia&#xD;&#xA; - Sparaios, Kronios and Kytos, sons of Himalia, a nymph&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus#Consorts_and_children&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minotaur" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="137" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="48" RevisionGUID="d5ba3e6c-e362-4abe-b2c0-41a87ff539d4" CreationDate="2015-04-28T18:49:52.100" UserId="58" Text="What is the link between Wodan and Santa Claus? How does Santa trace his origins to the Norse god?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="138" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="48" RevisionGUID="d5ba3e6c-e362-4abe-b2c0-41a87ff539d4" CreationDate="2015-04-28T18:49:52.100" UserId="58" Text="What is the link between Wodan and Santa Claus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="139" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="48" RevisionGUID="d5ba3e6c-e362-4abe-b2c0-41a87ff539d4" CreationDate="2015-04-28T18:49:52.100" UserId="58" Text="|norse|modern-influence|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="140" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="49" RevisionGUID="d665ea5e-7e32-4cc3-80c1-63a44011da67" CreationDate="2015-04-28T18:49:52.100" UserId="58" Text="Santa Claus is derived from the Dutch festival figure St Nicholas, or Sinterklaas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story is that St Nicholas is a Roman Catholic bishop who rides over the rooftop on a white horse at night, accompanied by his black manservant. While the children are asleep they bring presents, throwing them through the chimney, or the manservant climbing down the chimney to deliver the presents.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The characters have several influences, but the oldest version of St Nicholas seems to be Wodan. With the christianisation of Europe, festivals were changed to better fit the christian mythology. Witness how the midwinter festivals became Christmas and spring festivals became Easter - the latter name itself deriving from Ishtar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The manservant goes back to Wodans ravens, the white horse traces its origin to Sleipnir. There have been considerable influences over the ages, but this seems to be the oldest origin." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="142" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="44" RevisionGUID="0955c600-af8c-46a8-b75a-72d6e948ef83" CreationDate="2015-04-28T18:56:21.110" UserId="29" Comment="added 30 characters in body" Text="&gt; Πανδώρα (παν + δώρα): the all-gifted&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The myth of Pandora (the first mortal woman) is misinterpreted. I've seen many books claiming that hope did escape the box and, despite all evil that was spread throughout the land, people still hoped that better days would soon come. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Isiodus is the one that refers to the box (it was not a box actually, but more like a jar) and claims that Pandora (actually referring to women) is the root of all evil, because she would hurt the man with her beauty and lies.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;From her is the race of women and female kind: &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;of her is the deadly race and tribe of women who &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;live amongst mortal men to their great trouble, &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;no helpmates in hateful poverty, but only in wealth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Pandora opened the box, all evil escaped it, but Pandora (under Zeus' will) held hope inside the jar by his own will. Isiodus doesn't say why hope stayed into the jar, but one (judging from Isiodus' view on women) can imply that  he meant by that, that the men would have no hope against women, for without her, they would die alone, but with her, they'd have to withstand their cunning nature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="143" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="51" RevisionGUID="9f6d13d0-14f8-4498-b392-5d0a87dd090d" CreationDate="2015-04-28T18:57:59.560" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="144" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="52" RevisionGUID="bc2a6298-9501-41a7-8c5b-a73420116059" CreationDate="2015-04-28T18:57:59.560" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="146" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="44" RevisionGUID="3d64dac4-36b8-438e-8369-24a1a368d5fd" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:02:20.153" UserId="29" Comment="added 461 characters in body" Text="&gt; Πανδώρα (παν + δώρα): the all-gifted&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The myth of Pandora (the first mortal woman) is misinterpreted. I've seen many books claiming that hope did escape the box and, despite all evil that was spread throughout the land, people still hoped that better days would soon come. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Isiodus is the one that refers to the box (it was not a box actually, but more like a jar) and claims that Pandora (actually referring to women) is the root of all evil, because she would hurt the man with her beauty and lies.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;From her is the race of women and female kind: &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;of her is the deadly race and tribe of women who &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;live amongst mortal men to their great trouble, &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;no helpmates in hateful poverty, but only in wealth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Pandora opened the box, all evil escaped it, but Pandora (under Zeus' will) held hope inside the jar by closing the lid. Isiodus doesn't say why hope stayed into the jar, but one (judging from Isiodus' view on women) can imply that  he meant by that, that the men would have no hope against women, for without her, they would die alone, but with her, they'd have to withstand their cunning nature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Judging by this, which is how Isiodus closes [Theogony][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thus it is not possible to escape the mind of Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; an angry Zeus decides to give humanity a punishing gift to compensate for the boon they had been given. He commands Hephaestus to mold from earth the first woman, a &quot;beautiful evil&quot; whose descendants would torment the human race&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One can see what Isiodus wanted to say in the end.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theogony" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="147" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="29" RevisionGUID="e0214a53-d59f-41ce-991b-96db41a7de5e" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:04:51.680" UserId="-1" Comment="104" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:31,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Robert Longson&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:29,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;naltipar&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:56,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Judith&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:62,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Christofian&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="149" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="53" RevisionGUID="14449b11-da74-4c48-aa34-4c7707f5dad0" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:06:11.870" UserId="61" Text="I am looking for a comparison/contrast of these European war gods.  (Feel free to mention other deities in your answer if they are relevant or helpful in explaining)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Tyr&#xD;&#xA;- Ares&#xD;&#xA;- Mars&#xD;&#xA;- Anhur (I count Egypt as part of the Mediterranean)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Q1:  How did these deities interacted with the military forces of the day?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Q2:  How were these deities worshiped by the military forces of the day&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Q3:  What variances between the deities are relevant when it comes to the organized military forces of the day?  This is mainly referring to portfolio and temperament." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="150" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="53" RevisionGUID="14449b11-da74-4c48-aa34-4c7707f5dad0" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:06:11.870" UserId="61" Text="What are the similarities and differences between European war gods in regards to ancient military forces?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="151" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="53" RevisionGUID="14449b11-da74-4c48-aa34-4c7707f5dad0" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:06:11.870" UserId="61" Text="|gods|pantheon|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="152" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="45" RevisionGUID="fe003d7f-ad13-4d87-9dfb-13333d86edca" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:11:58.583" UserId="26" Comment="added a few to list for reference" Text="There is a [list of offspring of Zeus][1] on Wikipedia. To avoid simply repeating it, I've tried to add more detail. This list is not complete, as they are many &quot;possible offspring&quot;, and many with confused or unclear heritage, which may be Zeus', but may not.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Perseus, son of Danae, who went on to behead Medusa and save Andromeda. Conceived when Zeus was in the form of &quot;a shower of gold&quot;.&#xD;&#xA; - Heracles, son of Alcmene. Conceived while Zeus was disguised as Alcmene's husband&#xD;&#xA; - Dionysus, son of Semele. After Semele's death during her pregnancy, Zeus sewed Dionysus into his thigh, before releasing/&quot;birthing&quot; him several months later.&#xD;&#xA; - Amphion and Zethus, twin sons by Antiope. Conceived when Antiope was raped by Zeus in the form of a satyr.&#xD;&#xA; - Arcas, son of Callisto. Conceived while Zeus was disguised as Artemis, the only person Callisto would be with.&#xD;&#xA; - Tityos, a giant, son of Elara (who was not a giant - ouch). Zeus hid Elara from his jealous wife Hera beneath the Earth (it is assumed that Tityos' giant-ness was caused by this hiding, and Tityos is sometimes said to be a son of Gaia, Earth goddess).&#xD;&#xA; - Castor and Pollux, sons of Leda (conceived when Zeus was disguised as a swan)&#xD;&#xA; - Helen of Troy, daughter of Leda&#xD;&#xA; - Minos, son of Europa, and owner of *[that][2]* labyrinth&#xD;&#xA; - Myrmidon, son of Eurymedusa (said to have conceived when Zeus turned her into an ant before raping her)&#xD;&#xA; - Keroassa, daughter of Io, who later gave birth herself to a son by Poseidon who went on to found Byzantium&#xD;&#xA; - Tantalus, son of Plouto, a nymph. Known for his eternal punishment of standing in a pool with fruit hanging over him, but never quite within reach, and the water always receding before he could drink.&#xD;&#xA; - Pirithous, son of Dia (father could also be Ixion). Best friend of Theseus, and husband of Hippodamia, at whose wedding the [Battle of Lapiths and Centaurs][3] occurred.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Lesser-known offspring:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Rhadamanthus, son of Europa, a king somewhere in the Aegean islands, sometimes considered the husband of Ariadne.&#xD;&#xA; - Sarpedon, son of Europa, king of Lycia&#xD;&#xA; - Alagonia, daughter of Europa&#xD;&#xA; - Carnus, son of Europa, and a seer&#xD;&#xA; - Arcesius, king in Ithaca&#xD;&#xA; - Thebe, daughter of Iodame, who married Ogyges&#xD;&#xA; - Epaphus, son of Io, kind of Egypt (conceived by the touch of Zeus' hand)&#xD;&#xA; - Argus, son of Niobe&#xD;&#xA; - Opus, son of Protogenia, and a king of the Epeians&#xD;&#xA; - Lacedaemon, son of Taygete, a nymph. King of Laconia and husband of Sparta&#xD;&#xA; - Magnes (first king of Magnesia) and Makednos (ancestor of Macedonians), sons of Thyia&#xD;&#xA; - Carius, son of Torrhebia - he learned music from nymphs and later taught it to the Lydians&#xD;&#xA; - Solymus and Milye, son and daughter of Chaldene, who later married each other&#xD;&#xA; - Argus, son of Niobe. Later king of Argos. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Possible offspring: (aka those mentioned on the Wiki's list that I need to research more, will update when I do)**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Dardanus, son of Electra&#xD;&#xA; - Iasion, son of Electra&#xD;&#xA; - Harmonia, daughter of Electra (according to one account - other sources call her the daughter of Ares and Aphrodite)&#xD;&#xA; - Aethlius, son of Protogenia&#xD;&#xA; - Sparaios, Kronios and Kytos, sons of Himalia, a nymph&#xD;&#xA; - Balius and Xanthus, two immortal horses&#xD;&#xA; - Aecus and Damocrateia, children of Aegina&#xD;&#xA; - Olenus, son of Anaxithea&#xD;&#xA; - Acragas, son of Asterope, an Oceanid&#xD;&#xA; - Britomartis, daughter of Carme, the Minoan goddess of mountains and hunting&#xD;&#xA; - Atymnius, son of Cassiopeia and beloved of Sarpedon (above)&#xD;&#xA; - Dodon, son of Europa&#xD;&#xA; - Cres, son of the nymph Idaea&#xD;&#xA; - Orchomenus, son of Isonoe&#xD;&#xA; - Achilleus and Herophile, sons of Lamia, who was cursed by Hera to eat children (legend varies on whether she devoured her own, or those of others)&#xD;&#xA; - Locrus, son of Maera. Said to have assisted Zethus and Amphion (above) in the building of Thebes&#xD;&#xA; - Pelasgus, son of Niobe, and ancestor of the Pelasgians&#xD;&#xA; - Meliteus, son of Othreis, a nymph. He was nurtured by bees after an incident involving Othreis' fear of Hera's wrath.&#xD;&#xA; - Graecus and Latinus, sons of Pandora II (Pandora's granddaughter)&#xD;&#xA; - Hellen, son of Pyrrha (father could be Deucalion), progenitor of the Hellenes&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Taenarus, Calabrus and Geraestys, three brothers said to have sailed to Peloponnese and founded a sanctuary of Poseidon&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus#Consorts_and_children&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minotaur&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centauromachy" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="153" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="54" RevisionGUID="901ffb2b-7900-44c8-a2b5-c03e82920509" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:12:51.470" UserId="57" Text="According to the traditional geneaology of the Greek Gods, Cronus had six children with Rhea: Hestia, Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Hades and Demeter. All children were part of at least one major variation of the Twelve Olympians and - with the exception of Hestia - had temples honouring them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hestia was Cronus firstborn and her sanctuary was the hearth of the [Prytaneion][1], the political and religious center of the community. Also, Hestia was thought of as being present in every offering fire in all temples and received first offering in sacrifices. Thus, she didn't need temples of her own.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of course there may have been temples honouring Hestia that we simply don't know about. After all, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prytaneum" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="154" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="55" RevisionGUID="113686a9-0978-47da-954e-ff1b8acd6ecb" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:13:18.157" UserId="38" Text="&gt; *Only Hope remained there in an unbreakable home within under the rim of the great jar, and did not fly out at the door.*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Trans. Evelyn-White. ][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The answer to this question depends on how you interpret the above quote. Is hope being protected in the jar? Or withheld from humanity? The word Hesiod uses for hope, *elpis*, can also mean 'expectation'. [Verdenius states][2] that &quot;*elpis* may be regarded either (a) as a good, or (b) as an evil&quot;. In this view, the hope in Pandora's jar is potential, but for good or evil Hesiod never specified. &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Additional sources:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;West, M. L. Hesiod, Theogony, ed. with prolegomena and commentary (Oxford 1966).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;West, M. L. Hesiod, Works and Days, ed. with prolegomena and commentary (Oxford 1978).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/HesiodWorksDays.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://books.google.com/books?id=9Kk3AAAAIAAJ&amp;printsec=frontcover" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="164" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="32" RevisionGUID="7d1b8f43-0ba3-4974-aa63-36e8fa3d80a6" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:23:24.767" UserId="29" Comment="edited title" Text="How was Eclipse explained in Egyptian Mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="170" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="62" RevisionGUID="31d94d73-a6b4-4e0a-938f-a6e0db4fe012" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:28:09.507" UserId="65" Text="There is actually an Egyptian goddess named Hathor and he is the god of Solar Eclipses. From this [website][1] there are actually many gods associated with the sun:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Horus the Hawk is the Sun in totality.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Sun god Atum is the eclipsed Sun passing the second contact of a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; total eclipse.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ra is the eclipsed Sun shining past the third contact as the Diamond&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ring (Sacred Geometry)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Scarab Khepri was a representation of the dark New Moon.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Great Sphinx was the Egyptian Lord of Solar Eclipses.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hathor was the Egyptian Goddess of Solar Eclipses.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The problem is the Egyptians couldn't explain why the gods had this phenomenon and never actually put into words their beleif on the matter.&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.crystalinks.com/eclipse.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="171" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="32" RevisionGUID="23dfeb6d-8ad8-43d5-ba7f-3ef95ae88d3e" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:28:55.913" UserId="33" Comment="grammar/cleanup" Text="Eclipses are probably one of the phenomena that puzzled the ancient people. How was it explained in Egyptian mythology, and were there any gods connected with it (like thunder is connected to Zeus)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="172" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="32" RevisionGUID="23dfeb6d-8ad8-43d5-ba7f-3ef95ae88d3e" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:28:55.913" UserId="33" Comment="grammar/cleanup" Text="How were eclipses explained in Egyptian mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="173" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="32" RevisionGUID="23dfeb6d-8ad8-43d5-ba7f-3ef95ae88d3e" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:28:55.913" Comment="Proposed by 33 approved by 29 edit id of 11" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="180" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="64" RevisionGUID="5c60db3c-a028-4c2c-b5fa-c8b24332519b" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:38:05.800" UserId="65" Text="Many tools and weapons were given to the gods as gifts in order to perform their daily tasks. However there is no mention about how Hermes got his fabled shoes. So were they crafted or given as a gift? How did Hermes get his winged shoes?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="181" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="64" RevisionGUID="5c60db3c-a028-4c2c-b5fa-c8b24332519b" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:38:05.800" UserId="65" Text="Who gave Hermes his winged shoes?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="182" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="64" RevisionGUID="5c60db3c-a028-4c2c-b5fa-c8b24332519b" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:38:05.800" UserId="65" Text="|greek|god-items|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="183" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="65" RevisionGUID="81990156-ee89-4882-93e8-87d09ae8f0a2" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:38:34.573" UserId="58" Text="There is a theme that I found in several folk tales from Ireland to Russia - although mostly in Irish/Celtic stories. It is where a house has supernatural helpers, who do work overnight. However, the rule is to not give them clothes, or they will go away.  &#xD;&#xA;(And yes, we find that back in Harry Potter, with the house elves).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since this seems to be a recurring theme in cultures separated by long distances, I figure it has a hidden meaning - a warning conveyed in somewhat cryptic terms.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My best guess is, it is a warning to not spoil your servants, or it may go to their heads. Is that right, or is there another meaning? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="184" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="65" RevisionGUID="81990156-ee89-4882-93e8-87d09ae8f0a2" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:38:34.573" UserId="58" Text="What is the meaning of not giving clothes to supernatural helpers?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="185" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="65" RevisionGUID="81990156-ee89-4882-93e8-87d09ae8f0a2" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:38:34.573" UserId="58" Text="|interpretation|celtic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="186" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="66" RevisionGUID="2d93e145-aa45-428a-be28-e942bb993fe9" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:41:31.770" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="187" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="67" RevisionGUID="4c198c4d-a264-4c81-81eb-28100d551cda" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:41:31.770" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="188" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="68" RevisionGUID="876e64d4-79b3-41a9-b427-6cb8fc574f95" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:42:10.980" UserId="65" Text="The Greeks and Romans had stories about mermaids and various other half man half fish beings. What creatures are they referring to? If it isn't a creature but more of a &quot;fishing tale&quot; then when was the first recordings of one?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="189" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="68" RevisionGUID="876e64d4-79b3-41a9-b427-6cb8fc574f95" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:42:10.980" UserId="65" Text="Greek/Roman Mermaids" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="190" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="68" RevisionGUID="876e64d4-79b3-41a9-b427-6cb8fc574f95" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:42:10.980" UserId="65" Text="|greek|roman|sea-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="191" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="69" RevisionGUID="92395a0c-fe45-4e3b-847a-6d86202b0491" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:42:40.767" UserId="67" Text="I think the poetry of Innana's high priestess Enheduanna, recently translated into English from the original cuneiform tablets (and currently thought to be the earliest known writing) have quite a rich mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a sizeable pantheon that developed in the fertile crescent and a lot of stories involving them." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="192" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="70" RevisionGUID="c70bd9a8-8325-47e1-9e6f-cd3e9a984cac" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:44:17.180" UserId="29" Text="Zeus did that. Hermes was the son of Zeus, but he grew up very quickly&#xD;&#xA; and one day he decided to seek out adventure. The first thing he &#xD;&#xA;thought of was to steal Apollon's oxes and he actually did that. Apollon didn't know who it was at first, but he soon found out that Hermes stole the oxes and took Hermes&#xD;&#xA;to Olympus on trial. Hermes confessed the crime and made a deal with Zeus which&#xD;&#xA;made him the messenger of the gods. After that, Zeus gave Hermes&#xD;&#xA;a wand, a round hat and the Sandals." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="193" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="71" RevisionGUID="f8ea05d4-9d9b-4e35-b8eb-b4ab8a2d1633" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:44:29.973" UserId="65" Text="I have heard these stories as well and this is what I take from it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you give these beings human possessions they will no longer have their supernatural abilities. It is almost identical to Harry Potter, if you give a master's clothes to a house elf you are saying that the house elf is a master. If you give a being clothes you are saying it is nothing but a human." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="194" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="65" RevisionGUID="2e186764-fbd7-4c12-9df3-5a6d8e752fc7" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:45:06.937" UserId="58" Comment="edited tags" Text="|interpretation|celtic|shared-elements|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="195" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="72" RevisionGUID="ed60fde8-0bdd-43ad-b4f6-1efe97300fd4" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:46:37.377" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="196" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="73" RevisionGUID="3609dcd1-5eb8-4dd7-b50e-7c632362860d" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:46:37.377" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="201" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="74" RevisionGUID="110e19c7-1a36-47ef-81d5-b8b74650e7df" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:50:19.400" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="In the story Peredur the Son of Evrawc (part of the Mabinogion), Peredur encounters:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  And he saw a tall tree by the side of the river, one half of which was in flames from the root to the top, and the other half was green and in full leaf. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(This was after Peredur kills &quot;the black oppressor&quot; but before he inquires about which of the three roads he should take).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the meaning of the half-burning tree?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="202" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="74" RevisionGUID="110e19c7-1a36-47ef-81d5-b8b74650e7df" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:50:19.400" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="What is the meaning of the half burning tree in the Mabinogion?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="203" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="74" RevisionGUID="110e19c7-1a36-47ef-81d5-b8b74650e7df" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:50:19.400" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="|arthurian|welsh|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="204" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="75" RevisionGUID="be81a8af-f3d5-40da-8b17-a991ecb3cf2d" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:51:02.807" UserId="33" Text="Japan's birth rate dropped precipitiously in 1966, only to recover completely in 1967.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![birth rate in Japan][1]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is apparently because 1966 was the &quot;year of the Fire Horse&quot; - that is, in the 60-year zodiacal cycle you get by crossing the twelve zodiac animals with the five traditional elements (fire, water, earth, wood, metal), 1966 was in the Horse year of the Fire cycle. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there some sort of mythological story explaining why it's so bad to be born in the year of the Fire Horse? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/FG97t.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.tofugu.com/2012/04/11/the-curse-of-the-fire-horse-japans-ultimate-form-of-contraception/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="205" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="75" RevisionGUID="be81a8af-f3d5-40da-8b17-a991ecb3cf2d" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:51:02.807" UserId="33" Text="Why is it so bad to be born in the year of the Fire Horse?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="206" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="75" RevisionGUID="be81a8af-f3d5-40da-8b17-a991ecb3cf2d" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:51:02.807" UserId="33" Text="|japanese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="208" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="70" RevisionGUID="30002828-0359-4e6e-bcf1-030edf1419d2" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:51:23.650" UserId="29" Comment="added 79 characters in body" Text="Zeus did that. Hermes was the son of Zeus, but he grew up very quickly&#xD;&#xA; and one day he decided to seek out adventure. The first thing he &#xD;&#xA;thought of was to steal Apollon's oxes and he actually did that. Apollon didn't know who it was at first, but he soon found out that Hermes stole the oxes and took Hermes&#xD;&#xA;to Olympus on trial. Hermes confessed the crime and made a deal with Zeus which&#xD;&#xA;made him the messenger of the gods. After that, Zeus gave Hermes&#xD;&#xA;a wand, a round hat and the Sandals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When Zeus called Hermes to Olympus to chide him for stealing and lying, Hermes promised he would never again lie if Zeus named him as his messenger and herald. Zeus quickly accepted this offer, and told his son that his duties would also include protecting travelers, promoting trade, and negotiating treaties.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;To ensure rapid delivery of his messages, Zeus presented Hermes with golden winged sandals as swift as the wind&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source: http://www.infoplease.com/cig/mythology/little-rascal-hermes.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="212" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="67" RevisionGUID="a6b0924c-6fb1-49e0-a282-0a763d4ab49b" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:51:55.553" UserId="58" Comment="added 73 characters in body" Text="Used for questions asking for the deeper meaning behind a story or theme." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="213" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="67" RevisionGUID="a6b0924c-6fb1-49e0-a282-0a763d4ab49b" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:51:55.553" Comment="Proposed by 58 approved by 55 edit id of 13" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="214" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="36" RevisionGUID="276b9710-d62d-42aa-8659-90924009b99c" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:52:05.320" UserId="46" Comment="added 137 characters in body" Text="A pan-mythos prehistorical worldwide flood event. It is described in the biblical Noah's Ark, as well as the Sumerian myth of Gilgamesh. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="215" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="36" RevisionGUID="276b9710-d62d-42aa-8659-90924009b99c" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:52:05.320" Comment="Proposed by 46 approved by 55 edit id of 8" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="216" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3" RevisionGUID="4e8c04bd-5a4c-432c-8882-1482842ca2ad" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:52:07.700" UserId="22" Comment="Added a couple of tags to improve searchability" Text="|norse|teutonic|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="217" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3" RevisionGUID="4e8c04bd-5a4c-432c-8882-1482842ca2ad" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:52:07.700" Comment="Proposed by 22 approved by 55 edit id of 1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="218" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="35" RevisionGUID="da36086f-4eb5-4fd8-bf49-19a71c106fa7" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:52:11.003" UserId="46" Comment="added 284 characters in body" Text="The *deluge* or &quot;Great Flood&quot; is an event described in several independent mythologies, including the biblical account of Noah's Ark, and the story of Utnapishtim in the Sumerian epic of Gilgamesh.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is distinct from other *sinking continent* myths such as Atlantis and Lemuria.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="219" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="35" RevisionGUID="da36086f-4eb5-4fd8-bf49-19a71c106fa7" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:52:11.003" Comment="Proposed by 46 approved by 55 edit id of 7" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="220" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="73" RevisionGUID="7b8592d5-c1bd-4fa3-ae93-358083ff2c9e" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:52:15.567" UserId="58" Comment="added 70 characters in body" Text="For questions about the shared elements between different mythologies." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="221" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="73" RevisionGUID="7b8592d5-c1bd-4fa3-ae93-358083ff2c9e" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:52:15.567" Comment="Proposed by 58 approved by 55 edit id of 14" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="222" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="77" RevisionGUID="9ce767b2-db83-40d9-b583-29274730090e" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:57:55.763" UserId="65" Text="There is some mythology backing this. In 1966 Japan began testing birth control and abortion which led to the decline of births. However they did this even more with women because there is an old omen that says that women born on this year would be impossible to marry off.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This led to the abortion rate of women to almost double this year." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="223" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="78" RevisionGUID="0816ffc4-43c1-41f6-be99-214d92285faf" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:59:28.780" UserId="58" Text="A recurring theme in Irish stories about the Faerie is that they can be kept away by clothing turned inside-out. This (according to [this particular Wikipedia source about Spriggans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spriggan#Spriggans_in_folklore)) is &quot;as effective as holy water or iron in repelling fairies&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Holy water makes sense, as the Irish reconciled their original stories with the Christian mythology by saying that the Good Folk were the angels who had stayed neutral during God's conflict with Lucifer. Not good enough for heaven, not bad enough for hell, they remained on Earth, repelled by Christian symbols.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are some theories about why iron would repel them, one of them being that this was influenced by the Picts, who apparently had not discovered iron-working and could be defeated by the superior iron weapons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But turning one's clothing inside-out? Why would such a simple method repel these beings?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="224" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="78" RevisionGUID="0816ffc4-43c1-41f6-be99-214d92285faf" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:59:28.780" UserId="58" Text="Why would turning clothes inside-out keep the Faerie away?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="225" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="78" RevisionGUID="0816ffc4-43c1-41f6-be99-214d92285faf" CreationDate="2015-04-28T19:59:28.780" UserId="58" Text="|interpretation|fairies|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="227" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="79" RevisionGUID="a78b6d6f-3084-4b58-b472-672bfeae8572" CreationDate="2015-04-28T20:05:05.860" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="Core and Persephone were interchangeable in Hades wife myth.  Which is it? Core or Persephone?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="228" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="79" RevisionGUID="a78b6d6f-3084-4b58-b472-672bfeae8572" CreationDate="2015-04-28T20:05:05.860" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="Why is Core and Persephone interchangeable in the myth regarding Hades wife?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="229" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="79" RevisionGUID="a78b6d6f-3084-4b58-b472-672bfeae8572" CreationDate="2015-04-28T20:05:05.860" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="230" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="80" RevisionGUID="2a86bd3b-03ac-4260-a249-7202c9a48e11" CreationDate="2015-04-28T20:06:34.183" UserId="65" Text="The River Styx is mentioned quite alot when our Greek hero meets his demise. However is this really a body of water in Hades? Is it made out of something else? What is the River Styx?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="231" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="80" RevisionGUID="2a86bd3b-03ac-4260-a249-7202c9a48e11" CreationDate="2015-04-28T20:06:34.183" UserId="65" Text="What is the River Styx?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="232" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="80" RevisionGUID="2a86bd3b-03ac-4260-a249-7202c9a48e11" CreationDate="2015-04-28T20:06:34.183" UserId="65" Text="|greek|underworld|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="233" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="81" RevisionGUID="e7a58bff-fa1f-4fc0-91c7-a4132890acee" CreationDate="2015-04-28T20:10:49.350" UserId="36" Text="##The [Minotaur][1] was a lone creature, the first and only of it's kind. The unfortunate result of a Greek God loosing his temper.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Shortly after King Minos (or [Minos The King][2]) ascended to the throne of the island of Crete, he began to pray to [Poseidon][3] a sign of his right to sit on said throne. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Poseidon sent a snow-white bull, the [Cretan Bull][4], out of the sea as a gift to Minos and as proof that he was indeed worthy to be king, and in turn Minos promised he would sacrifice the bull in Posidean's name.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortuanlty, Minos' wife [Pasiphaë][5], took a liking to the bull and begged Minos to spare it. Minos did, and sacrificed a different bull in it's place.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortuatly again, Poseidon was not easily deceived and when he learned of Minos' treachery, he promptly cursed Pasiphaë with [zoophilia][6]...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_It get's creepy from here on..._&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;!Pasiphaë's zoophilic urges got the better of her but alas, she could not seduce the Cretan Bull. So she had a wooden bull built. Apparently a very realistic and attractive wooden bull. And proceeded to climb inside and wait for nature to take it's course. Sure enough this did the trick and soon the placae was blessed with the pitter-patter of cloven feet. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Minotaur, which they named Asterius, was an abomination. So with the help of [Daedalus][7], [The Labyrinth][8] was constructed. As Daedalus puts it, it was a : &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt;chamber that with its tangled windings perplexed the outward way&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Minos place Asterius in the centre, and as he didn't want anyone to know about his odd step-son, he threw Daedalus and his son [Icarus][9] in too but [they escaped][10].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And so the poor Minotaur languished in The Labyrinth alone, for the rest of his miserable days. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;...until [Theseus][11] paid him a [visit][12].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minotaur&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minos&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poseidon&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretan_Bull&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasipha%C3%AB&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoophilia&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daedalus&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labyrinth&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icarus&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.corbisimages.com/images/Corbis-42-18132270.jpg?size=67&amp;uid=2a711a1d-ee5d-484d-9114-6a39bdd52302&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theseus&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://slodive.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/simon-dominic-brewer/Theseus-and-the-Minotaur.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="234" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="82" RevisionGUID="adea1d45-10fe-43e5-9e82-cd3d912a59b3" CreationDate="2015-04-28T20:11:03.147" UserId="18" Text="The Wikipedia page on the [Monomyth](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth) has these statements in the summary at the top:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Campbell held that numerous myths from disparate times and regions share fundamental structures and stages,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Campbell argues that classic myths from many cultures follow this basic pattern.&lt;sup&gt;[citation needed]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately, the second one doesn't have a reference. However, I think there's a pretty good chance that this *was* Campbell's belief. Now, I'm wondering if he ever said anything about **why so many myths follow this pattern**. I'm not looking for anyone's opinion - I'm specifically looking for Campbell's opinion on this matter. Why is it that so many myths from all sorts of cultures follow the monomyth pattern?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="235" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="82" RevisionGUID="adea1d45-10fe-43e5-9e82-cd3d912a59b3" CreationDate="2015-04-28T20:11:03.147" UserId="18" Text="Why, according to Joseph Campbell, is the monomyth is so common?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="236" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="82" RevisionGUID="adea1d45-10fe-43e5-9e82-cd3d912a59b3" CreationDate="2015-04-28T20:11:03.147" UserId="18" Text="|monomyth|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="238" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="84" RevisionGUID="4575e081-407f-4185-8b4a-ed9e2942f7a2" CreationDate="2015-04-28T20:15:11.537" UserId="38" Text="Kore was the Ancient Greek word for young girl, the equivalent of our maiden, and Persephone was often referred to as such to highlight her innocence. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="239" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="85" RevisionGUID="2cea410b-f20f-48c3-a665-b2c0f7553719" CreationDate="2015-04-28T20:15:58.487" UserId="58" Text="It is the mystical division between life and death - or rather, life and afterlife. It is a symbol of that border.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is definitely not made out of normal water, as falling into the Styx causes one to lose one's memories. Which is why one has to take the ferry to the other side.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="240" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="82" RevisionGUID="d7868e49-57cc-465e-b3e1-6a04f7d70866" CreationDate="2015-04-28T20:16:56.370" UserId="70" Comment="Fixed typo in title" Text="Why, according to Joseph Campbell, is the monomyth so common?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="241" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="82" RevisionGUID="d7868e49-57cc-465e-b3e1-6a04f7d70866" CreationDate="2015-04-28T20:16:56.370" Comment="Proposed by 70 approved by 18 edit id of 16" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="242" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="71" RevisionGUID="c347e16d-3128-4f82-a52e-b13d6089af58" CreationDate="2015-04-28T20:17:24.753" UserId="65" Comment="added 59 characters in body" Text="These spirits are known as [Domovoi][1]. They watch over the house and are not harmful unless you neglect the house. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Offering them clothes would anger them because they would feel as if they are unwanted the way they are and leave the household.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While stories and books (such as the Harry Potter series) have taken a spin off of the Domovoi there is no link between the two.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domovoi" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="243" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="74" RevisionGUID="a1cb9718-43fc-4ce8-b947-6eed1d6b5da9" CreationDate="2015-04-28T20:25:52.123" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added link to source" Text="In the story Peredur the Son of Evrawc (part of [the Mabinogion](http://sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/index.htm#contents)), Peredur encounters:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  And he saw a tall tree by the side of the river, one half of which was in flames from the root to the top, and the other half was green and in full leaf. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(This was after Peredur kills &quot;the black oppressor&quot; but before he inquires about which of the three roads he should take).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the meaning of the half-burning tree?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="244" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="86" RevisionGUID="db576069-88e1-47ff-8627-cb04184e71bc" CreationDate="2015-04-28T20:28:22.460" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="Why is Heracles named after Hera if she hated him so much? He was Zeus's favored son but not Hera's." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="245" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="86" RevisionGUID="db576069-88e1-47ff-8627-cb04184e71bc" CreationDate="2015-04-28T20:28:22.460" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="Why is Heracles named after Hera if she hated him so much?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="246" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="86" RevisionGUID="db576069-88e1-47ff-8627-cb04184e71bc" CreationDate="2015-04-28T20:28:22.460" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="247" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="87" RevisionGUID="1245a678-d285-498d-bbe7-ec30f5fec19b" CreationDate="2015-04-28T20:33:02.207" UserId="36" Text="##The [River Styx][1] is one of the five rivers of the  Greek Underworld, that separate Hades from the land of the living.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;During the [Titanomachy][2] (the Titan war), which was fought between the [Titans][3] and the [Olympians][4], the goddess Styx sided with the Olympians. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Once the war was won, [Zeus][5], king of the Olympians, promised that every oath be sworn on Styx's name, as a sign of the greatest respect. He also proceeded to name the River Styx after her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Achilles][6] was dipped in it as a child and was rewarded with invulnerability, except for his heel, which was where his mother was holding him, hence the term :  Achilles' heel.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The full list of rivers surrounding Hades :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Acheron][7] - the river of woe&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. [Cocytus][8] - the river of lamentation;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. [Phlegethon][9] - the river of fire;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. [Lethe][10] - the river of forgetfulness; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;5. [Styx][11] - the river of hate.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Dor%C3%A9_-_Styx.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanomachy&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Olympians&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://api.ning.com/files/RxYDN27Lud8gaH*HXdHQh26D6YPz4WtXpJRuqmrHryg*U4eTgN1r-I6-zC2k*ZyIHViCvdPCeGVLFh3d5bAfwuWAyyp2aAfV/zeus2.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acheron&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocytus&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phlegethon&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethe&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styx" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="248" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="88" RevisionGUID="9628a61f-15ae-40dd-88bd-eac865164439" CreationDate="2015-04-28T20:34:08.620" UserId="58" Text="On a holiday in Mexico, we were told about Chac, the Mayan rain deity. The tour guide said that Chac's snout was that of an elephant, indicating that the Maya originally came from India.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While humans have migrated over long distances, this story seemed somehow unlikely to me. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there support for the theory that Chac represents an elephant? Or, if not, can we rule this theory out, given what we know about the migrations in the ancient past?  &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="249" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="88" RevisionGUID="9628a61f-15ae-40dd-88bd-eac865164439" CreationDate="2015-04-28T20:34:08.620" UserId="58" Text="Is there support for the theory that the Mayan deity Chac represents an elephant?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="250" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="88" RevisionGUID="9628a61f-15ae-40dd-88bd-eac865164439" CreationDate="2015-04-28T20:34:08.620" UserId="58" Text="|maya|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="255" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="89" RevisionGUID="b0079c77-da2a-4328-9ac5-3a6407c776a7" CreationDate="2015-04-28T20:41:04.140" UserId="75" Text="I typically hear of the silver bullet being the gold standard (so to speak) weapon for killing a werewolf and rarely hear of other weapons successfully doing the job. Even Wikipedia's article on [silver bullets][1] states:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (it) is often the only weapon that is effective against a werewolf&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is the fact that it is a bullet important in some way?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there some mythological context to suggest that the velocity is essential, or would any silver weapon (such as a sword) do the job?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_bullet" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="256" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="89" RevisionGUID="b0079c77-da2a-4328-9ac5-3a6407c776a7" CreationDate="2015-04-28T20:41:04.140" UserId="75" Text="Can a werewolf be killed by any silver weapon or must it be a bullet?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="257" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="89" RevisionGUID="b0079c77-da2a-4328-9ac5-3a6407c776a7" CreationDate="2015-04-28T20:41:04.140" UserId="75" Text="|werewolves|weapons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="258" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="90" RevisionGUID="40f6cc95-464d-4d00-83c6-e79d899b4722" CreationDate="2015-04-28T20:41:09.053" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="As is evident from the fact that there is a half-burning tree, the landscape that Peredur is in is somewhat magical. That is pretty much what the tree symbolises: it's a sign that he's left his own world and &quot;isn't in Kansas any more.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[As explained in Will Parker's Mabinogion.info](http://www.mabinogion.info/peredur.htm):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This extraordinary vision strongly hints at the allegorical, but its significance is never explored or disclosed. As with so much in the dreamscape of Romance, it is presented but not explained. Rather than being a token or a parable, the burning tree is a monstrum – a sign or a prodigy – that suggests that the protective boundary between the internal and the external worlds is in temporary abeyance. Such wonders serve to emphasise the apprehension that the final phase or end-game of the magical plot is close at hand. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I can't remember where I read this, but I've also heard a more subtle interpretation of the burning tree: because the tree is both burning (supernatural) and living (the &quot;real world&quot;), it symbolizes the connection between the two worlds. This fits with the other image that accompanies the burning tree:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And on one side of the river he saw a flock of white sheep, and on the other a flock of black sheep. And whenever one of the white sheep bleated, one of the black sheep would cross over and become white; and when one of the black sheep bleated, one of the white sheep would cross over and become black.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Source: [Peredur the Son of Evrawc](http://sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab10.htm))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like the sheep, Peradur easily moves between the real and spiritual world (i.e. changes from black to white)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="262" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="75" RevisionGUID="9d0ea10d-29a6-4017-8896-9da2e3a64031" CreationDate="2015-04-28T21:12:48.950" UserId="33" Comment="oops" Text="Japan's birth rate dropped precipitiously in 1966, only to recover completely in 1967.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![birth rate in Japan][1]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is apparently because 1966 was the &quot;year of the Fire Horse&quot; - that is, in the 60-year zodiacal cycle you get by crossing the twelve zodiac animals with the five traditional elements (fire, water, earth, wood, metal), 1966 was in the Horse year of the Fire cycle - and women actively avoided having children in that year because children born in that year were said to have poor prospects for marriage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there some sort of mythological story explaining why it's so bad to be born in the year of the Fire Horse? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/FG97t.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.tofugu.com/2012/04/11/the-curse-of-the-fire-horse-japans-ultimate-form-of-contraception/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="263" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="92" RevisionGUID="64650e2c-4a06-4bc9-a422-ade705f89e0f" CreationDate="2015-04-28T21:19:15.903" UserId="57" Text="Heracles was originally named Alcaeus or Alcidis (~grandson of Alcaeus). He was renamed Heracles (literally Hera's glory) in a failed attempt to appease Hera's anger. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="264" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="93" RevisionGUID="357c6e0c-88b7-4992-a1d9-e8490de9417a" CreationDate="2015-04-28T21:24:26.110" UserId="33" Text="Many systems of myth have a mythological explanation for how mankind came to possess fire (the most famous, at least in the West, is probably that of how Prometheus stole fire). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How does the mythology of the Native Americans of the Pacific Northwest describe humankind's acquisition of the ability to create fire?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="265" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="93" RevisionGUID="357c6e0c-88b7-4992-a1d9-e8490de9417a" CreationDate="2015-04-28T21:24:26.110" UserId="33" Text="According to the myth of the indigenous people of the Pacific Northwest, how did people get fire?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="266" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="93" RevisionGUID="357c6e0c-88b7-4992-a1d9-e8490de9417a" CreationDate="2015-04-28T21:24:26.110" UserId="33" Text="|native-american|pacific-northwest|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="267" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="94" RevisionGUID="6257647e-bad7-407f-80c4-4c0e7ca3a898" CreationDate="2015-04-28T21:24:26.110" UserId="33" Text="Given that the people of the Pacific Northwest are not a homogeneous group, there is, naturally, variation in their versions of the fire-acquisition story. It seems, though, that they all agree that an animal stole fire from a mountain and brought it to humankind, much like in the myth of Prometheus (though there is surely no direct connection with Greek myth here).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Three versions of this story are collected by K. B. Judson in [_Myths and Legends of the Pacific Northwest_][1]. According to the Nez Perce, it was Beaver that stole fire; while according to the Achomawi, it was Dog; and according to another group ([perhaps the Shoshone?][2]), it was Coyote. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is an excerpt from the story about Coyote, which contains the word &quot;Skookum&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Coyote seized the fire and jumped down the mountain side. Quickly&#xD;&#xA;Skookum followed him. She caught the tip of his tail in her hand; therefore it is white, even to this day. But Coyote reached Wolf. Wolf seized the fire and leaped down the mountain. Skookum chased Wolf. But Wolf reached Squirrel. Squirrel seized the fire and leaped from branch to branch down the mountain. The fire was so hot it burned the back of his neck. You can see the black spot there, even to this day. The fire was so hot it made Squirrel's tail curl up over his back. Skookum chased Squirrel But Squirrel reached Frog. Frog took the coals of fire in his mouth and hopped away. Skookum chased Frog. She caught his tail in her hand. Frog jumped away but Skookum kept the tail. That is why frogs have no tail, even to this day. Soon Skookum caught up with Frog again. To save the fire, Frog spit it out on Wood. Wood swallowed it. Skookum did not know how to get the fire out of Wood. But Coyote did. Coyote showed the Indians how to get fire out of Wood by rubbing two dry sticks together, as they do even to this day&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sos.wa.gov/legacy/images/publications/SL_judsonmyths/SL_judsonmyths.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/usupress_pubs/81/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="268" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="95" RevisionGUID="d923ab6f-0ce3-4448-bea1-fa2dad28f266" CreationDate="2015-04-28T21:30:52.600" UserId="85" Text="I've read that when she was young she was called Core (maiden), and after she was kidnapped she changed her name to Persephone (the destroyer). It's possible that my book dramatized that a bit and she didn't necessarily choose it herself in the original myths.![Persephone choosing a name][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/iLMn9.jpg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is from the book (graphic novel, actually) *Hades : Lord of the Dead* by George O'Connor." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="271" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="96" RevisionGUID="3ef80dd2-8e6b-4acd-a172-53e33e3dcb33" CreationDate="2015-04-28T21:38:28.037" UserId="86" Text="I have always wondered if before the Greek city states got united in the same country how they managed to keep the same mythology. There seems to be no central authority to maintain the beliefs (it is not really an organized religion) but every time you read about Greek mythology, it does seem that everyone believed the same thing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So I'm wondering if there are actually some differences that are actually usually ignored or if they actually maintained unity and in this case I would be interested in knowning how." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="272" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="96" RevisionGUID="3ef80dd2-8e6b-4acd-a172-53e33e3dcb33" CreationDate="2015-04-28T21:38:28.037" UserId="86" Text="Where there some differences in the mythology between the different city states?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="273" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="96" RevisionGUID="3ef80dd2-8e6b-4acd-a172-53e33e3dcb33" CreationDate="2015-04-28T21:38:28.037" UserId="86" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="274" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="97" RevisionGUID="4720a01e-a956-420f-983e-beb9825bbabe" CreationDate="2015-04-28T21:38:42.537" UserId="79" Text="In Islamic theology, jinn are said to be creatures with free will, made from smokeless fire by Allah as humans were made of clay, among other things.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinn)&#xD;&#xA;&gt;They are usually invisible to humans, but humans do appear clearly to jinn, as they can possess them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Clearly, this contradicts the existence of depictions of jinn.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, jinn are classified into three:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **ghūl (غول)**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A ghul or ghoul is said to be a desert dwelling, shape shifting demon. It is said to commonly take the appearance of a hyena. Legends about the ghul inform that the ghul takes the appearance of whatever it last devoured.  &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **ifrīt (عفريت)**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;An ifrit is an enormous winged creature of fire, either male or female, who lives underground and frequents ruins.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **siʿlā**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They are said to be the female creatures that fall under the jinn category. However, they're immutable in shape and appear in the guise of an attractive young woman.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="276" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="81" RevisionGUID="18685a89-bb78-41dd-af0f-8c9cff5d7c24" CreationDate="2015-04-28T21:44:15.173" UserId="36" Comment="edited body" Text="##The [Minotaur][1] was a lone creature, the first and only of it's kind. The unfortunate result of a Greek God loosing his temper.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Shortly after King Minos (or [Minos The King][2]) ascended to the throne of the island of Crete, he began to pray to [Poseidon][3] a sign of his right to sit on said throne. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Poseidon sent a snow-white bull, the [Cretan Bull][4], out of the sea as a gift to Minos and as proof that he was indeed worthy to be king, and in turn Minos promised he would sacrifice the bull in Posidean's name.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortuanlty, Minos' wife [Pasiphaë][5], took a liking to the bull and begged Minos to spare it. Minos did, and sacrificed a different bull in it's place.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortuatly again, Poseidon was not easily deceived and when he learned of Minos' treachery, he promptly cursed Pasiphaë with [zoophilia][6]...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_It get's creepy from here on..._&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;!Pasiphaë's zoophilic urges got the better of her but alas, she could not seduce the Cretan Bull. So she had a wooden bull built. Apparently a very realistic and attractive wooden bull. And proceeded to climb inside and wait for nature to take it's course. Sure enough this did the trick and soon the palace was blessed with the pitter-patter of cloven feet. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Minotaur, which they named Asterius, was an abomination. So with the help of [Daedalus][7], [The Labyrinth][8] was constructed. As Daedalus puts it, it was a : &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt;chamber that with its tangled windings perplexed the outward way&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Minos place Asterius in the centre, and as he didn't want anyone to know about his odd step-son, he threw Daedalus and his son [Icarus][9] in too but [they escaped][10].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And so the poor Minotaur languished in The Labyrinth alone, for the rest of his miserable days. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;...until [Theseus][11] paid him a [visit][12].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minotaur&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minos&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poseidon&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretan_Bull&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasipha%C3%AB&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoophilia&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daedalus&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labyrinth&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icarus&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.corbisimages.com/images/Corbis-42-18132270.jpg?size=67&amp;uid=2a711a1d-ee5d-484d-9114-6a39bdd52302&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theseus&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://slodive.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/simon-dominic-brewer/Theseus-and-the-Minotaur.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="278" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="96" RevisionGUID="23f670d6-3867-487d-a40a-79abf2291c7c" CreationDate="2015-04-28T21:51:43.103" UserId="33" Comment="wording/cleanup" Text="I have always wondered how the Greek city-states managed to keep the same mythology before they got united into the same country. There seems to be no central authority to maintain the beliefs (it is not really an organized religion) but every time you read about Greek mythology, it does seem that everyone believed the same thing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So I'm wondering if there are actually some differences that are usually ignored or if they actually maintained unity, and in this case, I would be interested in knowing how." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="279" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="96" RevisionGUID="23f670d6-3867-487d-a40a-79abf2291c7c" CreationDate="2015-04-28T21:51:43.103" UserId="33" Comment="wording/cleanup" Text="Were there some differences in mythology between the different city-states?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="280" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="96" RevisionGUID="23f670d6-3867-487d-a40a-79abf2291c7c" CreationDate="2015-04-28T21:51:43.103" Comment="Proposed by 33 approved by 86 edit id of 17" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="281" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="98" RevisionGUID="e003b2d0-b788-499b-aac4-f5076254dd7b" CreationDate="2015-04-28T21:54:24.620" UserId="79" Text="From [Wikipedia article on Hades](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades):&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Zeus got the sky, Poseidon got the seas, and Hades received the underworld, the unseen realm to which the souls of the dead go upon leaving the world as well as any and all things beneath the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I had read certain articles which in some way imply that he was betrayed by Zeus and cast as the ruler of the Underworld. Was Hades forcibly made to accept his position or was it his own free will?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="282" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="98" RevisionGUID="e003b2d0-b788-499b-aac4-f5076254dd7b" CreationDate="2015-04-28T21:54:24.620" UserId="79" Text="How did the Greek gods get their worlds?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="283" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="98" RevisionGUID="e003b2d0-b788-499b-aac4-f5076254dd7b" CreationDate="2015-04-28T21:54:24.620" UserId="79" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="284" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="95" RevisionGUID="e13711d3-3ccb-43d1-81f7-f0e5db51899b" CreationDate="2015-04-28T21:54:32.003" UserId="85" Comment="added 92 characters in body" Text="I've read that when she was young she was called Core (maiden), and after she was kidnapped she changed her name to Persephone (the destroyer).  &#xD;&#xA;![Persephone choosing a name][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/iLMn9.jpg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is from the book (graphic novel, actually) *Hades : Lord of the Dead* by George O'Connor. O’Connor draws from primary documents to reconstruct and retell classic Greek myths.  &#xD;&#xA;It's possible that my book dramatized that a bit and she didn't necessarily choose it herself in the original myths." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="285" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="99" RevisionGUID="ac7707ac-937f-4f18-aadf-a3002a159d70" CreationDate="2015-04-28T21:54:56.683" UserId="26" Text="The following quotes are taken from *Spirits, Fairies, Leprechauns and Goblins - An Encyclopedia*, by Carol Rose (highly recommended).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the entry for Brownies:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Families were proud of their Brownies as they brought good fortune; to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lose one was disastrous. [...] In general, the Brownie was the most&#xD;&#xA;&gt; industrious of the household spirits, ploughing, reaping, grinding&#xD;&#xA;&gt; grain, cleaning the house and barns, churning butter - in fact, most&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the tedious jobs he would gladly do. In return the Brownie was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; entitled to a bowl of the best cream and new baked cake or bread, to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; be put within his reach. **To offer the Brownie any form of payment&#xD;&#xA;&gt; other than this, especially to take pity and to give him new clothes,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was an insult, and he would vanish immediately.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the entry for Tomtar:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tomtar are the Little People in the folklore of Sweden.... They enjoy&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a bowl of porridge, and some bread and tobacco, but only on Christmas&#xD;&#xA;&gt; morning. To give the Tomtar any better gift during the year would be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sure to offend him, and he would do no more work.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In essence, then, your theory is correct - it is a warning not to spoil your servants. However, I'm not sure that this is because it will &quot;go to their heads&quot;. My impression is that brownies, and similar beings, want to work on their own terms. To turn it into a payment, or transaction, was highly insulting to them, particularly if they wanted to do the jobs they want because they enjoyed it, or liked the family. To take pity on them, implying that they are lesser beings relegated to housework, causes offence, and this is the reason they leave - not that their newfound power has gone to their heads. Beings such as Tomtar and Brownies, then, seem to like ***appreciation***, but not ***payment***." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="286" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="100" RevisionGUID="a4a0330b-c88a-4e18-8fb6-8e478965138d" CreationDate="2015-04-28T21:55:56.417" UserId="29" Text="The ancient Greek city-states were connected through different customs, although they are often seen as discrete entities. So, even before the city-states started merging with one another, there were common customs and common beliefs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since, as you are implying, there was no central authority that &quot;preached&quot; a certain belief, I think you can expect that pantheon of gods would vary in different locations, due to the importance of some gods for whatever reason (e.g. Athena was worshipped greatly in Athens and you can tell that because Parthenon was dedicated to her). There were variations of the Dodecatheon tracing back in older times:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While the number was fixed at twelve, there was considerable variation as to which deities were included. The Dodekatheon of Herodorus of Heraclea included Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Hermes, Athena, Apollo, Alpheus, Cronus, Rhea and the Charites. The historian Herodotus states that Heracles was included as one of the Twelve by some. At Kos, Heracles and Dionysus are added to the Twelve, and Ares and Hephaestus are not. For Pindar, the Bibliotheca, and Herodorus, Heracles is not one of the Twelve Gods, but the one who established their cult. Lucian (2nd century AD) includes Heracles and Asclepius as members of the Twelve, without explaining which two had to give way for them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The pantheon (not necessarily the Dodecatheon) could also vary geographically, depending on the regional landscape and included gods such as rivers, who were worshipped greatly due to their importance to the survival and well-being of people living in the nearby regions. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Olympians&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;P.S. The `Dodecatheon` is a greek word and denoted the set of the twelve main gods." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="287" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="95" RevisionGUID="289e9a2f-7af5-466a-a8d7-6cf0c75933ba" CreationDate="2015-04-28T21:57:58.230" UserId="85" Comment="added 92 characters in body" Text="I've read that when she was young she was called Core (maiden), and after she was kidnapped she changed her name to Persephone (the destroyer).  &#xD;&#xA;I see it as a sort of coming of age thing.&#xD;&#xA;![Persephone choosing a name][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/iLMn9.jpg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is from the book (graphic novel, actually) *Hades : Lord of the Dead* by George O'Connor. O’Connor draws from primary documents to reconstruct and retell classic Greek myths.  &#xD;&#xA;It's possible that my book dramatized that a bit and she didn't necessarily choose it herself in the original myths." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="288" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="77" RevisionGUID="f7dddda1-71a4-4e34-8a37-32335ad3e7ae" CreationDate="2015-04-28T21:59:06.780" UserId="65" Comment="added 897 characters in body" Text="There is some mythology backing this. In 1966 Japan began testing birth control and abortion which led to the decline of births. However they did this even more with women because there is an old omen that says that women born on this year would be impossible to marry off.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a [governmental site][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A decrease of about 463 000 live births occurred in Japan in 1966,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; constituting a sharp departure from the linear trend before and after.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This was partly caused by contraception and partly by induced&#xD;&#xA;&gt; abortion. The induced abortion rate, 43.1 per 1000 births in the year&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (a total of 65 000), was significantly higher than the 30.6 expected&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (46.200 total) from the regression trend computed from the years 1963&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to 1969. No epidemics were reported in 1966 which might have caused&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the increase in abortion. It is more likely to be due to observance of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hinoe-Uma (Elder Fire-Horse), which comes round every sixty years by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; zodiac almanac. This event represents a superstition observed only by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Japanese, in whcih it is a bad omen for female babies to be born&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in the year.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This led to the abortion rate of women to almost double this year.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1052742" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="291" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="95" RevisionGUID="4283a3d5-38d8-4538-b2b4-dacf21fb7d71" CreationDate="2015-04-28T22:03:58.690" UserId="85" Comment="added 92 characters in body" Text="I've read that when she was young she was called Core (maiden), and after she was kidnapped she changed her name to Persephone (bringer of destruction/death).  &#xD;&#xA;I see it as a sort of coming of age thing.&#xD;&#xA;![Persephone choosing a name][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/iLMn9.jpg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is from the book (graphic novel, actually) *Hades : Lord of the Dead* by George O'Connor. O’Connor draws from primary documents to reconstruct and retell classic Greek myths.  &#xD;&#xA;It's possible that my book dramatized that a bit and she didn't necessarily choose it herself in the original myths." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="292" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="100" RevisionGUID="76067c93-205f-4686-9288-c8de0c4b8aca" CreationDate="2015-04-28T22:07:43.383" UserId="29" Comment="edited body" Text="The ancient Greek city-states were connected through different customs, although they are often seen as discrete entities. So, even before the city-states started merging with one another, there were common customs and common beliefs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since, as you are implying, there was no central authority that &quot;preached&quot; a certain belief, I think you can expect that pantheon of gods would vary in different locations, due to the importance of some gods for whatever reason (e.g. Athena was worshipped greatly in Athens and you can tell that because Parthenon was dedicated to her). There were variations of the Dodecatheon tracing back in older times:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While the number was fixed at twelve, there was considerable variation as to which deities were included. The Dodekatheon of Herodorus of Heraclea included Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Hermes, Athena, Apollo, Alpheus, Cronus, Rhea and the Charites. The historian Herodotus states that Heracles was included as one of the Twelve by some. At Kos, Heracles and Dionysus are added to the Twelve, and Ares and Hephaestus are not. For Pindar, the Bibliotheca, and Herodorus, Heracles is not one of the Twelve Gods, but the one who established their cult. Lucian (2nd century AD) includes Heracles and Asclepius as members of the Twelve, without explaining which two had to give way for them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The pantheon (not necessarily the Dodecatheon) could also vary geographically, depending on the regional landscape and included gods such as rivers, who were worshipped greatly due to their importance to the survival and well-being of people living in the nearby regions. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Olympians&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;P.S. The `Dodecatheon` is a greek word and denotes the set of the twelve main gods." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="293" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="101" RevisionGUID="85ba9f3b-6585-4cb3-a7db-e613c3aa1240" CreationDate="2015-04-28T22:11:33.757" UserId="33" Text="My understanding of the origin myth of the Easter Islanders (Rapa Nui) is that they had a legendary founder named Hotu Matu'a, who came to the island, and who was the direct patrilineal ancestor of all future Easter Islanders. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does the origin myth say where Hotu Matu'a came from? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="294" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="101" RevisionGUID="85ba9f3b-6585-4cb3-a7db-e613c3aa1240" CreationDate="2015-04-28T22:11:33.757" UserId="33" Text="Where did the Easter Islanders come from, according to their own myths?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="295" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="101" RevisionGUID="85ba9f3b-6585-4cb3-a7db-e613c3aa1240" CreationDate="2015-04-28T22:11:33.757" UserId="33" Text="|easter-island|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="296" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="102" RevisionGUID="084ff387-b5f5-4cf0-b6c1-9cdb247524a4" CreationDate="2015-04-28T22:17:27.267" UserId="88" Text="The sources used for many of the stories are few. Hesiod, [link][1], is a major source for many of the myths of his time, if there were differences in the tales between the city states he was from (kimi in the island of Evia), it would be difficult to tell. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We can tell that the myths had differences over time in the sources. We cannot be sure if this was due to different poets/bards who told/wrote the stories or different regions had their own versions. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Places like Volos would place emphasis on certain tales and probably embellish the grandness of the Argonaughts.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesiod" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="297" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="103" RevisionGUID="d2c93169-815a-4ce0-889e-d45d8cff5807" CreationDate="2015-04-28T22:17:33.447" UserId="57" Text="According to Pseudo-Apollodorus, the three brothers drew lots to decide their dominions: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But when Zeus was full-grown, he took Metis, daughter of Ocean, to help him, and she gave Cronus a drug to swallow, which forced him to disgorge first the stone and then the children whom he had swallowed, and with their aid Zeus waged the war against Cronus and the Titans. They fought for ten years, and Earth prophesied victory to Zeus if he should have as allies those who had been hurled down to Tartarus. So he slew their jailoress Campe, and loosed their bonds. And the Cyclopes then gave Zeus thunder and lightning and a thunderbolt, and on Pluto they bestowed a helmet and on Poseidon a trident. Armed with these weapons the gods overcame the Titans, shut them up in Tartarus, and appointed the Hundred-handers their guards; but they themselves cast lots for the sovereignty, and to Zeus was allotted the dominion of the sky, to Poseidon the dominion of the sea, and to Pluto the dominion in Hades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; Source: [Apollodorus, Library, 1.2.1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D2%3Asection%3D1) &lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="298" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="104" RevisionGUID="1cebe0ab-4dbe-40c7-869c-22ef9f37fb52" CreationDate="2015-04-28T22:18:04.037" UserId="79" Text="&gt;Hau-Maka had a dream in which his spirit traveled to a far country, to help look for new land for King Hotu Matu'a. He traveled to the Mata ki te rangi ('Eyes that look to the sky). The island has also been called &quot;Te pito o te henua&quot;, which means &quot;the Center of the Earth.&quot; Both islands are commonly said to be Easter Island.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;When Hau-Maka woke, he told the King. The King then ordered seven men to travel to the island from Hiva, their mythical home, to investigate. They found the land and returned to Hiva. The king himself then traveled to the new island.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hotu Matu'a led his people from Hiva; linguistic analysis comparing Rapanui to other Polynesian languages suggests this was the Marquesas Islands.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotu_Matu%27a &lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="299" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="103" RevisionGUID="e6c6f7e8-630b-4a3f-a9bd-66a29499ad8d" CreationDate="2015-04-28T22:22:35.110" UserId="57" Comment="added 123 characters in body" Text="According to Pseudo-Apollodorus, the three brothers drew lots to decide their dominions: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But when Zeus was full-grown, he took Metis, daughter of Ocean, to help him, and she gave Cronus a drug to swallow, which forced him to disgorge first the stone and then the children whom he had swallowed, and with their aid Zeus waged the war against Cronus and the Titans. They fought for ten years, and Earth prophesied victory to Zeus if he should have as allies those who had been hurled down to Tartarus. So he slew their jailoress Campe, and loosed their bonds. And the Cyclopes then gave Zeus thunder and lightning and a thunderbolt, and on Pluto they bestowed a helmet and on Poseidon a trident. Armed with these weapons the gods overcame the Titans, shut them up in Tartarus, and appointed the Hundred-handers their guards; but they themselves cast lots for the sovereignty, and to Zeus was allotted the dominion of the sky, to Poseidon the dominion of the sea, and to Pluto the dominion in Hades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; Source: [Apollodorus, Library, 1.2.1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D2%3Asection%3D1) &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interestingly, the three brothers shared dominion over the earth. This is why Poseidon is also the god of earthquakes. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="300" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="105" RevisionGUID="e4e4fca4-9855-42a3-9120-ee1dc53fda62" CreationDate="2015-04-28T22:23:16.960" UserId="11" Text="##There is some disagreement on this issue.##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [Theogony, lines 881-885](https://www.msu.edu/~tyrrell/theogon.pdf) (emphasis mine):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But when the blessed gods completed their toil and made settlement of honors for the Titans by brute force, they urged wide-seeing **Olympian Zeus** in accord with the advice of Gaia to be king and lord, and **he apportioned** provinces to them well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, [in the Iliad](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hom.%20Il.%2015.187&amp;lang=original), it says this (emphasis mine again):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [185] “Out upon it, verily strong though he be he hath spoken overweeningly, if in sooth by force and in mine own despite he will restrain me that am of like honour with himself. For three brethren are we, begotten of Cronos, and born of Rhea,—Zeus, and myself, and the third is Hades, that is lord of the dead below. And in three-fold wise are all things divided, and unto each hath been apportioned his own domain. [190] I verily, **when the lots were shaken, won** for my portion the grey sea to be my habitation for ever, and Hades won the murky darkness, while Zeus won the broad heaven amid the air and the clouds; but the earth and high Olympus remain yet common to us all. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="301" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="106" RevisionGUID="1de80ce1-56c6-4569-b3e2-30ae6c0b5287" CreationDate="2015-04-28T22:25:18.650" UserId="88" Text="The reason that his mother 'Alcmene' named him as such was to mock Hera's failed attempts at preventing her from delivering her child into the world. She required assistance to escape the minions of Hera,[link][1]. There are different accounts to the efforts Hera put into this plot. Hercule's birth was Hera's 'failure', so by calling it a 'glory' would ridicule. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcmene#Pausanias" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="306" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="108" RevisionGUID="c18d0979-709e-46d9-8200-db9c73e5b154" CreationDate="2015-04-28T22:45:04.340" UserId="79" Text="Present works of fiction present Mjölnir as a hammer of unbelievable power, which can only be used by the worthy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But, when the Mjölnir is given to Thor, its properties are described:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Then he gave the hammer to Thor, and said that Thor might smite as hard as he desired, whatsoever might be before him, and the hammer would not fail; and if he threw it at anything, it would never miss, and never fly so far as not to return to his hand; and if be desired, he might keep it in his sark, it was so small; but indeed it was a flaw in the hammer that the fore-haft was somewhat short.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It says nothing of the &quot;worthiness&quot; of the weilder. Is there any significant evidence in Norse mythology about the Mjölnir and the worthiness of its user?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="307" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="108" RevisionGUID="c18d0979-709e-46d9-8200-db9c73e5b154" CreationDate="2015-04-28T22:45:04.340" UserId="79" Text="Was the Mjölnir usable by only the worthy?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="308" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="108" RevisionGUID="c18d0979-709e-46d9-8200-db9c73e5b154" CreationDate="2015-04-28T22:45:04.340" UserId="79" Text="|norse|god-items|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="310" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="7" RevisionGUID="d0a2a91d-12e9-4419-8f97-223ee5093faf" CreationDate="2015-04-28T22:49:53.177" UserId="-1" Comment="104" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:62,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Christofian&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:29,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;naltipar&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:65,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Young Guilo&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:22,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Stuart H&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:79,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ero Sɘnnin&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="312" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="106" RevisionGUID="34815e2b-95dd-4790-9987-dafae409758c" CreationDate="2015-04-28T22:52:54.073" UserId="88" Comment="added 112 characters in body" Text="The reason that his mother 'Alcmene' named him as such was to mock Hera's failed attempts at preventing her from delivering her child into the world. She required assistance to escape the minions of Hera,[link][1], her daughter Eileithyia played a role in this, [link][2]. There are different accounts to the efforts Hera put into this plot. Hercule's birth was Hera's 'failure', so by calling it a 'glory' would ridicule. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcmene#Pausanias&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Ouranios/Eileithyia.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="313" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="89" RevisionGUID="8b2b93a4-b29d-4f68-8f07-5cfd4d75201e" CreationDate="2015-04-28T22:52:55.213" UserId="-1" Comment="105" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:62,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Christofian&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:51,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;kenorb&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:29,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;naltipar&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:79,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ero Sɘnnin&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:33,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;senshin&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="314" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="44" RevisionGUID="249fc237-a0a4-4ffc-a291-e833587a392b" CreationDate="2015-04-28T22:54:31.360" UserId="29" Comment="edited body" Text="&gt; Πανδώρα (παν + δώρα): the all-gifted&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The myth of Pandora (the first mortal woman) is misinterpreted. I've seen many books claiming that hope did escape the box and, despite all evil that was spread throughout the land, people still hoped that better days would soon come. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod is the one that refers to the box (it was not a box actually, but more like a jar) and claims that Pandora (actually referring to women) is the root of all evil, because she would hurt the man with her beauty and lies.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;From her is the race of women and female kind: &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;of her is the deadly race and tribe of women who &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;live amongst mortal men to their great trouble, &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;no helpmates in hateful poverty, but only in wealth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Pandora opened the box, all evil escaped it, but Pandora (under Zeus' will) held hope inside the jar by closing the lid. Isiodus doesn't say why hope stayed into the jar, but one (judging from Isiodus' view on women) can imply that  he meant by that, that the men would have no hope against women, for without her, they would die alone, but with her, they'd have to withstand their cunning nature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Judging by this, which is how Hesiod closes [Theogony][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thus it is not possible to escape the mind of Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; an angry Zeus decides to give humanity a punishing gift to compensate for the boon they had been given. He commands Hephaestus to mold from earth the first woman, a &quot;beautiful evil&quot; whose descendants would torment the human race&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One can see what Hesiod wanted to say in the end.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theogony" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="317" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="92" RevisionGUID="dc2afa89-a747-4a7d-8d96-ff0a0cf801a2" CreationDate="2015-04-28T22:59:45.733" UserId="57" Comment="added 1469 characters in body" Text="Diodorus Siculus tells us that Heracles was originally named Alcaus and was renamed Heracles&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; after he gained glory with Hera's aid: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; μετὰ δὲ ταῦτα ἡ μὲν Ἥρα δύο δράκοντας ἀπέστειλε τοὺς ἀναλώσοντας τὸ βρέφος, ὁ δὲ παῖς οὐ καταπλαγεὶς ἑκατέρᾳ τῶν χειρῶν τὸν αὐχένα σφίγξας ἀπέπνιξε τοὺς δράκοντας. διόπερ Ἀργεῖοι πυθόμενοι τὸ γεγονὸς Ἡρακλέα προσηγόρευσαν, ὅτι δἰ Ἥραν ἔσχε κλέος, Ἀλκαῖον πρότερον καλούμενον. τοῖς μὲν οὖν ἄλλοις οἱ γονεῖς τοὔνομα περιτιθέασι, τούτῳ δὲ μόνῳ ἡ ἀρετὴ τὴν προσηγορίαν ἔθετο.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Diod. 4.10.1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0540%3Abook%3D4%3Achapter%3D10%3Asection%3D1)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus also tells us that Hercules had a different name at birth (Alcides, which means grandson of Alcaeus), but gives a different account of his renaming: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now it came to pass that after the battle with the Minyans Hercules was driven mad through the jealousy of Hera and flung his own children, whom he had by Megara, and two children of Iphicles into the fire;1 wherefore he condemned himself to exile, and was purified by Thespius, and repairing to Delphi he inquired of the god where he should dwell.2 The Pythian priestess then first called him Hercules, for hitherto he was called Alcides.3 And she told him to dwell in Tiryns, serving Eurystheus for twelve years and to perform the ten labours imposed on him, and so, she said, when the tasks were accomplished, he would be immortal.4&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Apollod. 2.4.12](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Apollod.+2.4.12&amp;fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; Literally Hera's glory&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="318" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="44" RevisionGUID="a7e0ff36-6a4a-4752-8a9e-43eebd2d5cb9" CreationDate="2015-04-28T23:00:50.553" UserId="29" Comment="added 55 characters in body" Text="&gt; Πανδώρα (παν + δώρα): the all-gifted&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The myth of Pandora (the first mortal woman) is misinterpreted. I've seen many books claiming that hope did escape the box and, despite all evil that was spread throughout the land, people still hoped that better days would soon come. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod is the one that refers to the box (it was not a box actually, but more like a jar) and claims that Pandora (actually referring to women) is the root of all evil, because she would hurt the man with her beauty and lies.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;From her is the race of women and female kind: &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;of her is the deadly race and tribe of women who &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;live amongst mortal men to their great trouble, &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;no helpmates in hateful poverty, but only in wealth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Pandora opened the box, all evil escaped it, but Pandora (under Zeus' will) held hope inside the jar by closing the lid. Isiodus doesn't say why hope stayed into the jar, but one (judging from Isiodus' view on women) can imply that  he meant by that, that the men would have no hope against women, for without her, they would die alone, but with her, they'd have to withstand their cunning nature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Judging by this, which is how Hesiod closes [Theogony][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thus it is not possible to escape the mind of Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; an angry Zeus decides to give humanity a punishing gift to compensate for the boon they had been given. He commands Hephaestus to mold from earth the first woman, a &quot;beautiful evil&quot; whose descendants would torment the human race&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One can see what Hesiod wanted to say in the end.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theogony&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources: https://www.msu.edu/~tyrrell/theogon.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="319" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="92" RevisionGUID="0f3ffb0d-6336-476d-99d3-c4334f3420c7" CreationDate="2015-04-28T23:01:28.170" UserId="57" Comment="added 1469 characters in body" Text="Diodorus Siculus tells us that Heracles was originally named Alcaus and was renamed Heracles&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; after he gained glory with Hera's aid: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; μετὰ δὲ ταῦτα ἡ μὲν Ἥρα δύο δράκοντας ἀπέστειλε τοὺς ἀναλώσοντας τὸ βρέφος, ὁ δὲ παῖς οὐ καταπλαγεὶς ἑκατέρᾳ τῶν χειρῶν τὸν αὐχένα σφίγξας ἀπέπνιξε τοὺς δράκοντας. διόπερ Ἀργεῖοι πυθόμενοι τὸ γεγονὸς Ἡρακλέα προσηγόρευσαν, ὅτι δἰ Ἥραν ἔσχε κλέος, Ἀλκαῖον πρότερον καλούμενον. τοῖς μὲν οὖν ἄλλοις οἱ γονεῖς τοὔνομα περιτιθέασι, τούτῳ δὲ μόνῳ ἡ ἀρετὴ τὴν προσηγορίαν ἔθετο.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Diod. 4.10.1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0540%3Abook%3D4%3Achapter%3D10%3Asection%3D1)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus also tells us that Hercules had a different name at birth (Alcides, which means grandson of Alcaeus), but gives a different account of his renaming: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now it came to pass that after the battle with the Minyans Hercules was driven mad through the jealousy of Hera and flung his own children, whom he had by Megara, and two children of Iphicles into the fire; wherefore he condemned himself to exile, and was purified by Thespius, and repairing to Delphi he inquired of the god where he should dwell. The Pythian priestess then first called him Hercules, for hitherto he was called Alcides. And she told him to dwell in Tiryns, serving Eurystheus for twelve years and to perform the ten labours imposed on him, and so, she said, when the tasks were accomplished, he would be immortal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Apollod. 2.4.12](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Apollod.+2.4.12&amp;fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm pretty sure there's another version of the story, where Heracles gets his name from Apollo, but I cannot remember the source. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; Literally &quot;Hera's glory&quot;&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="321" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="104" RevisionGUID="b9683f93-8d4e-469d-80f2-4be1503c051b" CreationDate="2015-04-28T23:06:29.587" UserId="79" Comment="added 440 characters in body" Text="From [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotu_Matu%27a):&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Hau-Maka had a dream in which his spirit traveled to a far country, to help look for new land for King Hotu Matu'a. He traveled to the Mata ki te rangi ('Eyes that look to the sky). The island has also been called &quot;Te pito o te henua&quot;, which means &quot;the Center of the Earth.&quot; Both islands are commonly said to be Easter Island.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;When Hau-Maka woke, he told the King. The King then ordered seven men to travel to the island from Hiva, their mythical home, to investigate. They found the land and returned to Hiva. The king himself then traveled to the new island.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hotu Matu'a led his people from Hiva; linguistic analysis comparing Rapanui to other Polynesian languages suggests this was the Marquesas Islands.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From [Nova Travel](http://www.novatravels.350.com/chile/EasterIsland/History.htm)'s article on the History of Easter Island:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Hotu Matu'a was the first highest rank leader of Easter Island. According to the legends, the Ariki Mau, **Hotu Matu'a arrived from an island or group of islands called Hiva**; apparently a catastrophe had sunk their land. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Other source(s): http://pvs.kcc.hawaii.edu/ike/moolelo/hotu_matua.html&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="322" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="44" RevisionGUID="566a3262-2296-4c92-ab11-77399e7a80e6" CreationDate="2015-04-28T23:06:56.883" UserId="29" Comment="added 55 characters in body" Text="&gt; Πανδώρα (παν + δώρα): the all-gifted&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The myth of Pandora (the first mortal woman) is misinterpreted. I've seen many modern books wrongly claiming that hope did escape the box and, despite all evil that was spread throughout the land, people still hoped that better days would soon come. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod is the one that refers to the box (it was not a box actually, but more like a jar) and claims that Pandora (actually referring to women) is the root of all evil, because she would hurt the man with her beauty and lies.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Citing [Theogonia][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;For from her is the descent of female women       &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;a great pain for mortals, living with men, &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;companions not of destructive Poverty but of Plenty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Pandora opened the box, all evil escaped it, but Pandora (under Zeus' will) held hope inside the jar by closing the lid. Isiodus doesn't say why hope stayed into the jar, but one (judging from Isiodus' view on women) can imply that  he meant by that, that the men would have no hope against women, for without her, they would die alone, but with her, they'd have to withstand their cunning nature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Judging by this, which is how Hesiod closes [Theogony][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thus it is not possible to escape the mind of Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; an angry Zeus decides to give humanity a punishing gift to compensate for the boon they had been given. He commands Hephaestus to mold from earth the first woman, a &quot;beautiful evil&quot; whose descendants would torment the human race&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One can see what Hesiod wanted to say in the end.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources: https://www.msu.edu/~tyrrell/theogon.pdf&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.msu.edu/~tyrrell/theogon.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theogony" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="324" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="44" RevisionGUID="788512af-0a91-42f0-85cc-359794f03b16" CreationDate="2015-04-28T23:16:41.147" UserId="29" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="&gt; Πανδώρα (παν + δώρα): the all-gifted&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The myth of Pandora (the first mortal woman) is misinterpreted. I've seen many modern books wrongly claiming that hope did escape the box and, despite all evil that was spread throughout the land, people still hoped that better days would soon come. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod is the one that refers to the box (it was not a box actually, but more like a jar) and claims that Pandora (actually referring to women) is the root of all evil, because she would hurt the man with her beauty and lies.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Citing [Theogony][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;For from her is the descent of female women       &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;a great pain for mortals, living with men, &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;companions not of destructive Poverty but of Plenty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Pandora opened the box, all evil escaped it, but Pandora (under Zeus' will) held hope inside the jar by closing the lid. Isiodus doesn't say why hope stayed into the jar, but one (judging from Isiodus' view on women) can imply that  he meant by that, that the men would have no hope against women, for without her, they would die alone, but with her, they'd have to withstand their cunning nature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Judging by this, which is how Hesiod closes [Theogony][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thus it is not possible to escape the mind of Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; an angry Zeus decides to give humanity a punishing gift to compensate for the boon they had been given. He commands Hephaestus to mold from earth the first woman, a &quot;beautiful evil&quot; whose descendants would torment the human race&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One can see what Hesiod wanted to say in the end.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources: https://www.msu.edu/~tyrrell/theogon.pdf&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.msu.edu/~tyrrell/theogon.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theogony" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="325" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5" RevisionGUID="6cf067a9-01cf-40d6-a87b-53e68f240f9e" CreationDate="2015-04-28T23:19:15.643" UserId="26" Comment="added 8 characters in body" Text="In the legend of Theseus and the Minotaur, we know that the Minotaur dwelled at the centre of the maze built by Icarus and Dedalus. However, the creature itself (part man, part bull) doesn't appear to show up in any other well-known legends.&#xA;&#xA;Was this Minotaur the only being like him, or was he part of a larger &quot;race&quot; of creatures?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="326" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="108" RevisionGUID="25c3b3cd-3cd2-4e51-93ce-e6ead1e3021c" CreationDate="2015-04-28T23:27:19.407" UserId="79" Comment="added 70 characters in body" Text="Present works of fiction present Mjölnir as a hammer of unbelievable power, which can only be used by the worthy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But, when the Mjölnir is given to Thor, its properties are [described](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mj%C3%B6lnir#Sk.C3.A1ldskaparm.C3.A1l):&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Then he gave the hammer to Thor, and said that Thor might smite as hard as he desired, whatsoever might be before him, and the hammer would not fail; and if he threw it at anything, it would never miss, and never fly so far as not to return to his hand; and if be desired, he might keep it in his sark, it was so small; but indeed it was a flaw in the hammer that the fore-haft was somewhat short.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It says nothing of the &quot;worthiness&quot; of the weilder. Is there any significant evidence in Norse mythology about the Mjölnir and the worthiness of its user?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="327" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="109" RevisionGUID="9e8dd64f-c167-4705-802b-3950bf475685" CreationDate="2015-04-28T23:27:52.600" UserId="91" Text="[The Dreaming][1], or dreamtime, is the Australian Aboriginal term for the pre-creation formless world, which was then given form by various deities including the [rainbow serpent][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How long ago was the dreaming supposed to be? If there are great variations due to different versions of the creation myth by different aboriginal cultures, please give a few examples, or the &quot;most notable&quot; one if possible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreamtime&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_Serpent" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="328" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="109" RevisionGUID="9e8dd64f-c167-4705-802b-3950bf475685" CreationDate="2015-04-28T23:27:52.600" UserId="91" Text="How long ago was the Dreaming?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="329" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="109" RevisionGUID="9e8dd64f-c167-4705-802b-3950bf475685" CreationDate="2015-04-28T23:27:52.600" UserId="91" Text="|australian|creation|chronology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="332" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="110" RevisionGUID="abe7fe6a-4333-4424-84de-cdb87cb56f0b" CreationDate="2015-04-28T23:37:00.797" UserDisplayName="user93" Text="It seems that there are a great many similarities between Roman and Greek Mythology. In fact, many people consider them synonymous and only really differ in the names. For example:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Greek &gt;&gt; Roman&#xD;&#xA;* Zeus &gt;&gt; Jupiter &#xD;&#xA;* Poseidon &gt;&gt; Neptune&#xD;&#xA;* Hades &gt;&gt; Pluto&#xD;&#xA;* Hermes &gt;&gt; Mercury&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And many others.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My impression is that they are nearly identical, so I want to know when, why and how did the Roman people adopt the Greek Mythos? Did they bring it with them? Is there evidence that they believed something else first that evolved into a Greek-like mythos?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If this belief is false, please point out where the Roman mythology differs from the Greek and why that is significant enough to say they are different religions." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="333" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="110" RevisionGUID="abe7fe6a-4333-4424-84de-cdb87cb56f0b" CreationDate="2015-04-28T23:37:00.797" UserDisplayName="user93" Text="When and how did the Greek mythos transfer to the Romans?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="334" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="110" RevisionGUID="abe7fe6a-4333-4424-84de-cdb87cb56f0b" CreationDate="2015-04-28T23:37:00.797" UserDisplayName="user93" Text="|greek|roman|history|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="336" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="111" RevisionGUID="32ef8117-9910-4140-aa18-b3e1c4668b22" CreationDate="2015-04-28T23:54:37.847" UserDisplayName="user93" Text="Hinduism is a *very* ancient religion and has predominated the area of modern India for millennia. It's a complex religion with a very large pantheon that doesn't seem to be strictly regulated by any &quot;official&quot; body. In fact, I have heard that there are so many gods that some are specific to just individual families and their dedication to them and no other believers seem to mind too much.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In light of this, what mythoi existed in the area before Hinduism predominated? Did they affect modern Hinduism in any way? If it is the case that we really don't know, please be sure to cite reputable sources that state there is no evidence of anything else existing there previously." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="337" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="111" RevisionGUID="32ef8117-9910-4140-aa18-b3e1c4668b22" CreationDate="2015-04-28T23:54:37.847" UserDisplayName="user93" Text="What do we know about the beliefs of the people of modern India before Hinduism and how much did that affect modern Hinduism?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="338" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="111" RevisionGUID="32ef8117-9910-4140-aa18-b3e1c4668b22" CreationDate="2015-04-28T23:54:37.847" UserDisplayName="user93" Text="|hindu|history|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="339" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="112" RevisionGUID="ded9e4e5-9073-42f2-9942-98480da2d4e7" CreationDate="2015-04-29T00:01:11.307" UserId="57" Text="[Publius Cornelius Tacitus][1] in his De Origine et situ Germanorum tells us that 1st century Germanic tribes worshipped Hercules: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They say that Hercules, too, once visited them; and when going into battle, they sing of him first of all heroes. They have also those songs of theirs, by the recital of which (“baritus,” they call it), they rouse their courage, while from the note they augur the result of the approaching conflict. For, as their line shouts, they inspire or feel alarm. It is not so much an articulate sound, as a general cry of valour. They aim chiefly at a harsh note and a confused roar, putting their shields to their mouth, so that, by reverberation, it may swell into a fuller and deeper sound. Ulysses, too, is believed by some, in his long legendary wanderings, to have found his way into this ocean, and, having visited German soil, to have founded and named the town of Asciburgium, which stands on the bank of the Rhine, and is to this day inhabited. They even say that an altar dedicated to Ulysses, with the addition of the name of his father, Laertes, was formerly discovered on this same spot, and that certain monuments and tombs, with Greek inscriptions, still exist on the borders of Germany and Rhætia. These statements I have no intention of sustaining by proofs, or of refuting; every one may believe or disbelieve them as he feels inclined.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Tac. Ger. 3](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0083%3Achapter%3D3)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there other sources that discuss a Hercules cult in the general area? Or is this an instance of [interpretatio graeca](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretatio_graeca)? And if so, which Germanic deity or hero is Tacitus substituting with Hercules?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="340" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="112" RevisionGUID="ded9e4e5-9073-42f2-9942-98480da2d4e7" CreationDate="2015-04-29T00:01:11.307" UserId="57" Text="Was there a cult of Hercules in Germania?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="341" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="112" RevisionGUID="ded9e4e5-9073-42f2-9942-98480da2d4e7" CreationDate="2015-04-29T00:01:11.307" UserId="57" Text="|untagged|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="342" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="113" RevisionGUID="3eede96d-f19e-4637-9ab2-e382c91688e7" CreationDate="2015-04-29T00:12:40.793" UserId="42" Text="As your quote shows, the story of it's creation makes no such specification.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If stealing it qualifies as &quot;using&quot;, the Þrymskviða from the Poetic Edda tells the story of the giant Þrymr stealing Mjollnir.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://www.germanicmythology.com/PoeticEdda/THYBryant.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Seems to indicate that the worthiness requirement is likely a Marvel invention." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="345" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="114" RevisionGUID="f8b0b04b-a475-4842-b3f9-25cf8d617afa" CreationDate="2015-04-29T00:22:04.287" UserId="98" Text="It is weird to see two different religions so closely related to each other. Roman mythology seems to have some Greek Mythology and vice versa. For example:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greek - Zeus, Roman - Jupiter&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Two of the same gods with different names. Much of the two religions are closely related to each other and it can be confusing to know which is which. Why are the two religions so close related to each other and what is the major thing that makes them two different religions?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="346" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="114" RevisionGUID="f8b0b04b-a475-4842-b3f9-25cf8d617afa" CreationDate="2015-04-29T00:22:04.287" UserId="98" Text="Why is Roman Mythology so similar to Greek Mythology or vice versa" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="347" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="114" RevisionGUID="f8b0b04b-a475-4842-b3f9-25cf8d617afa" CreationDate="2015-04-29T00:22:04.287" UserId="98" Text="|greek|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="348" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="115" RevisionGUID="efde0aee-a36e-4cbe-bec3-4a385dfea665" CreationDate="2015-04-29T00:24:04.700" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="349" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="116" RevisionGUID="c0a9ce76-9313-45b9-9887-dd27ab8e8e95" CreationDate="2015-04-29T00:24:04.700" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="353" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="92" RevisionGUID="f82e65a2-0afb-4c3a-b37a-ab70c9bcb705" CreationDate="2015-04-29T00:37:31.383" UserId="57" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="Diodorus Siculus tells us that Heracles was originally named Alcaeus and was renamed Heracles&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; after he gained glory with Hera's aid: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; μετὰ δὲ ταῦτα ἡ μὲν Ἥρα δύο δράκοντας ἀπέστειλε τοὺς ἀναλώσοντας τὸ βρέφος, ὁ δὲ παῖς οὐ καταπλαγεὶς ἑκατέρᾳ τῶν χειρῶν τὸν αὐχένα σφίγξας ἀπέπνιξε τοὺς δράκοντας. διόπερ Ἀργεῖοι πυθόμενοι τὸ γεγονὸς Ἡρακλέα προσηγόρευσαν, ὅτι δἰ Ἥραν ἔσχε κλέος, Ἀλκαῖον πρότερον καλούμενον. τοῖς μὲν οὖν ἄλλοις οἱ γονεῖς τοὔνομα περιτιθέασι, τούτῳ δὲ μόνῳ ἡ ἀρετὴ τὴν προσηγορίαν ἔθετο.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Diod. 4.10.1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0540%3Abook%3D4%3Achapter%3D10%3Asection%3D1)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus also tells us that Hercules had a different name at birth (Alcides, which means grandson of Alcaeus), but gives a different account of his renaming: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now it came to pass that after the battle with the Minyans Hercules was driven mad through the jealousy of Hera and flung his own children, whom he had by Megara, and two children of Iphicles into the fire; wherefore he condemned himself to exile, and was purified by Thespius, and repairing to Delphi he inquired of the god where he should dwell. The Pythian priestess then first called him Hercules, for hitherto he was called Alcides. And she told him to dwell in Tiryns, serving Eurystheus for twelve years and to perform the ten labours imposed on him, and so, she said, when the tasks were accomplished, he would be immortal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Apollod. 2.4.12](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Apollod.+2.4.12&amp;fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm pretty sure there's another version of the story, where Heracles gets his name from Apollo, but I cannot remember the source. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; Literally &quot;Hera's glory&quot;&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="357" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="118" RevisionGUID="4489a778-b131-4957-b44d-d246e73c8a0f" CreationDate="2015-04-29T00:48:05.507" UserId="91" Text="According to Greek mythology, there was a mythical time known as the [Golden Age][1] where the titans ruled and the [gods of Olympus][2] didn't exist.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Were there any real cultures that actually worshipped the titans, to the exclusion of the Olympians? Or perhaps mythical cultures that did so?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Age&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Olympians" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="358" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="118" RevisionGUID="4489a778-b131-4957-b44d-d246e73c8a0f" CreationDate="2015-04-29T00:48:05.507" UserId="91" Text="Who worshipped the titans?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="359" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="118" RevisionGUID="4489a778-b131-4957-b44d-d246e73c8a0f" CreationDate="2015-04-29T00:48:05.507" UserId="91" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="360" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="119" RevisionGUID="23c81320-8049-4b0d-b2e7-74451ded6a2e" CreationDate="2015-04-29T01:08:17.167" UserId="95" Text="It's mentioned in the Coffin Texts that only the dead can know the true forms of the gods. (Erik Hornung- Conceptions of God in Ancient Egypt.)&#xD;&#xA;&quot;None of these images shows the true form of a god, and none can encompass the full richness of his nature–hence the variable iconography of Egyptian gods, which is seldom reduced to a fixed, canonical form. Every image is an imperfect means of making a god visible, characterizing his nature, and distinguishing him from other deities.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The animal heads (and various headdresses) are meant to tell us something about the gods, and to distinguish them in artwork. Aset/Isis wears a stairstep-throne on her head to show she's the Queen. Wepwawet, &quot;the opener of the ways,&quot; was shown in jackal form, or with a jackal head because they stylized the jackal as sleek, fast, and agile. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="361" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="120" RevisionGUID="d8cc83a3-3a84-459e-a90c-b4ee727d0949" CreationDate="2015-04-29T01:21:20.293" UserId="95" Text="The Greek god Hermes is sometimes depicted as a plain column with a carved head at the top, and an erect phallus (a &quot;Herm&quot;). What's the earliest estimate on when these statues appeared?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How does that date compare with ithyphalic representations in Egypt (Min, for example.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="362" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="120" RevisionGUID="d8cc83a3-3a84-459e-a90c-b4ee727d0949" CreationDate="2015-04-29T01:21:20.293" UserId="95" Text="When did &quot;Herm&quot; images appear in Greece?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="363" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="120" RevisionGUID="d8cc83a3-3a84-459e-a90c-b4ee727d0949" CreationDate="2015-04-29T01:21:20.293" UserId="95" Text="|greek|hermes|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="364" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="121" RevisionGUID="979096e2-7c75-447a-886a-3ba8e5615116" CreationDate="2015-04-29T01:24:00.663" UserId="96" Text="I'm interested in creation stories from various cultures.  I find it interesting to see similarities and differences between various &quot;origin of man&quot; and &quot;origin of the world&quot; accounts.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Ho-Chunk Nation][1] is very visible in the area where I live, yet i know next to nothing about them, their culture, or their mythology, so I thought it'd be interesting to explore their mythology on this site, starting with their creation account.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, what, exactly is the Ho-Chunk creation story?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.ho-chunknation.com/about.aspx" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="365" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="121" RevisionGUID="979096e2-7c75-447a-886a-3ba8e5615116" CreationDate="2015-04-29T01:24:00.663" UserId="96" Text="In Ho-Chunk mythos, how was the world created?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="366" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="121" RevisionGUID="979096e2-7c75-447a-886a-3ba8e5615116" CreationDate="2015-04-29T01:24:00.663" UserId="96" Text="|native-american|creation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="367" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="122" RevisionGUID="7e5ae9b7-3065-4edd-898f-5592dec49820" CreationDate="2015-04-29T01:24:00.663" UserId="96" Text="The entire story can be found [here][1].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This story deals with a Creator god (Earthmaker) who was alone in space, with nothing around him.  His first &quot;creation&quot; was his tears, which formes oceans, lakes, and streams.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;His following creations (light, earth, plants, etc.) were all thought into existence.  He then made man out of clay, and breathed life into man.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A partial excerpt follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the beginning, Earthmaker sat in space and there was nothing around&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him. He became conscious and realized there was nothing there. He&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wondered what he should do, and he began to cry. Tears flowed from his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eyes and fell down below him. He looked down and saw something bright:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; it was his tears which had fallen and formed the oceans, lakes, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; streams. Earthmaker thought some more. He realized that if he thought&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of something, it would simply appear. He thought of light and it&#xD;&#xA;&gt; became light. Then he wished for the earth, and the earth came into&#xD;&#xA;&gt; existence. Earthmaker looked at the earth and thought it was fine, but&#xD;&#xA;&gt; it was not quiet and steady: it moved like waves on the ocean. Then he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; made the trees, but they did not make the earth steady. Then he made&#xD;&#xA;&gt; grass and rocks and stones and they helped to steady and quiet the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; earth, but it wasn't really steady yet. So then he made the four&#xD;&#xA;&gt; directions and the four winds and he placed one at each corner of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; earth to hold it down and steady it. But still the earth was not quite&#xD;&#xA;&gt; steady. He then made four large snake beings and threw them down to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the earth, and they fell through the earth to the place underneath.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then the earth was steady and quiet.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The earth and the trees were all formed, but Earthmaker thought of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; something else He took a piece of clay and shaped it so it looked just&#xD;&#xA;&gt; like him. He talked to the small form, but it did not answer because&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he had not given it a mind. He talked to it again, and again it did&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not answer, and he realized that he had not given it a tongue. He made&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a tongue for it but still it could not talk. He gave it a soul and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; breathed into its mouth and it answered him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.mpm.edu/WIRP/ICW-140.html#origin" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="368" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="123" RevisionGUID="a3021575-6cf8-4c96-ab1b-575a6049cc4c" CreationDate="2015-04-29T01:38:13.653" UserId="95" Text="Some ancient Egyptian images were worked into later mythology in the area (Bes, for instance.) &#xD;&#xA;A source for &quot;Less-than-deities&quot; in ancient Egypt is Egyptologist Kasia Szpakowska's [DemonThings blog][1]. It might be worth checking.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.demonthings.com/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="369" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="124" RevisionGUID="9a677f88-711d-4283-a41a-61de88f4916b" CreationDate="2015-04-29T01:46:20.680" UserId="44" Text="I was just wondering because there never seems to be a beginning. Greek mythology always seems to start with just there being Uranus and Gaea with no events before that. Is there a beginning before the beginning?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="370" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="124" RevisionGUID="9a677f88-711d-4283-a41a-61de88f4916b" CreationDate="2015-04-29T01:46:20.680" UserId="44" Text="Is there any explanation in greek mythology for the creation of Uranus and Gaea?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="371" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="124" RevisionGUID="9a677f88-711d-4283-a41a-61de88f4916b" CreationDate="2015-04-29T01:46:20.680" UserId="44" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="373" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="125" RevisionGUID="ee8e8929-237b-4df0-a437-3cddf2b55da1" CreationDate="2015-04-29T02:02:10.723" UserId="10" Text="Well, before Gaea and Uranus there were a few deities, but not many. In the [Greek story of creation]() it says&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the beginning there was only Chaos. Then out of the void appeared Erebus, the unknowable place where death dwells, and Night. All else was empty, silent, endless, dark. Then, Love was born bringing along the beginning of order. From Love emerged Light, followed by Gaea, the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So before Gaea, there was Chaos, Erebus, Night, and Love. Love then created Light, which in turn had Gaea. Then, Erebus and Night has Ether and Day, heavenly and earthly light respectively and Night alone had &quot;all things that dwell in the darkness haunting mankind.&quot; This includes Death, Fate, and Sleep. Gaea then gave birth to Uranus, who she then married.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, there were powerful beings before Gaea and Uranus. How these beings came into existence is less clear, but it seems that how it all starts with Chaos is similar to the creation story for Christians. Chaos was just there." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="376" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="127" RevisionGUID="d33db994-177b-413e-83a9-cc287f7719d7" CreationDate="2015-04-29T03:08:06.530" UserId="86" Text="Before the gods of Olympus came to power, the humans didn't have fire (since Promotheus stole it) so I would assume that the greeks didn't consider any culture could exist before that.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are some non humans who sided with the titans like the giants or cyclops so you could maybe consider them as a culture." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="377" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="128" RevisionGUID="eb3d284f-e621-4636-9461-acb71be6cd79" CreationDate="2015-04-29T03:36:02.733" UserId="91" Text="[Guan Yu][1] was a real general who lived almost 2000 years ago, but was deified as early as the [Sui dynasty][2] (circa 7th century). He is still an important figure of Chinese folklore today, worshipped by many as a god of war, righteousness, and protection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although he was a respectable figure during his life, you'd expect a gradual process between being revered and becoming a god. This process even extended after his deification, where for example he became Emperor Guan (關帝) during the Ming dynasty (17th century). So how exactly did this process unfold? Was there a cult of Guan Yu that spread? Did he replace some earlier god(s) of war? Did some ruler elevate his status along the way for political purposes?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guan_Yu&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sui_dynasty" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="378" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="128" RevisionGUID="eb3d284f-e621-4636-9461-acb71be6cd79" CreationDate="2015-04-29T03:36:02.733" UserId="91" Text="How was Guan Yu deified?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="379" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="128" RevisionGUID="eb3d284f-e621-4636-9461-acb71be6cd79" CreationDate="2015-04-29T03:36:02.733" UserId="91" Text="|chinese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="380" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="125" RevisionGUID="9941c05f-52e8-480e-8ca1-301810a829ac" CreationDate="2015-04-29T03:40:47.210" UserId="10" Comment="added 73 characters in body" Text="Well, before Gaea and Uranus there were a few gods, but not many. In the [Greek story of creation](http://www.greekmythology.com/Myths/The_Myths/The_Creation/the_creation.html) it says&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the beginning there was only Chaos. Then out of the void appeared Erebus, the unknowable place where death dwells, and Night. All else was empty, silent, endless, dark. Then, Love was born bringing along the beginning of order. From Love emerged Light, followed by Gaea, the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So before Gaea, there was Chaos, Erebus, Night, and Love. Love then created Light, which in turn had Gaea. Then, Erebus and Night has Ether and Day, heavenly and earthly light respectively and Night alone had &quot;all things that dwell in the darkness haunting mankind.&quot; This includes Death, Fate, and Sleep. Gaea then gave birth to Uranus, who she then married.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, there were powerful beings before Gaea and Uranus. How these beings came into existence is less clear, but it seems that how it all starts with Chaos is similar to the creation story for Christians. Chaos was just there." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="381" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="122" RevisionGUID="9b2ab587-bfc8-41db-abff-24fdd13881d5" CreationDate="2015-04-29T04:11:11.963" UserId="96" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="The entire story can be found [here][1].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This story deals with a Creator god (Earthmaker) who was alone in space, with nothing around him.  His first &quot;creation&quot; was his tears, which forms oceans, lakes, and streams.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;His following creations (light, earth, plants, etc.) were all thought into existence.  He then made man out of clay, and breathed life into man.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A partial excerpt follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the beginning, Earthmaker sat in space and there was nothing around&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him. He became conscious and realized there was nothing there. He&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wondered what he should do, and he began to cry. Tears flowed from his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eyes and fell down below him. He looked down and saw something bright:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; it was his tears which had fallen and formed the oceans, lakes, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; streams. Earthmaker thought some more. He realized that if he thought&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of something, it would simply appear. He thought of light and it&#xD;&#xA;&gt; became light. Then he wished for the earth, and the earth came into&#xD;&#xA;&gt; existence. Earthmaker looked at the earth and thought it was fine, but&#xD;&#xA;&gt; it was not quiet and steady: it moved like waves on the ocean. Then he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; made the trees, but they did not make the earth steady. Then he made&#xD;&#xA;&gt; grass and rocks and stones and they helped to steady and quiet the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; earth, but it wasn't really steady yet. So then he made the four&#xD;&#xA;&gt; directions and the four winds and he placed one at each corner of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; earth to hold it down and steady it. But still the earth was not quite&#xD;&#xA;&gt; steady. He then made four large snake beings and threw them down to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the earth, and they fell through the earth to the place underneath.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then the earth was steady and quiet.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The earth and the trees were all formed, but Earthmaker thought of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; something else He took a piece of clay and shaped it so it looked just&#xD;&#xA;&gt; like him. He talked to the small form, but it did not answer because&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he had not given it a mind. He talked to it again, and again it did&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not answer, and he realized that he had not given it a tongue. He made&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a tongue for it but still it could not talk. He gave it a soul and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; breathed into its mouth and it answered him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.mpm.edu/WIRP/ICW-140.html#origin" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="383" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="129" RevisionGUID="1d41dc90-76e2-4891-9859-10d3879df20f" CreationDate="2015-04-29T04:17:24.540" UserId="11" Text="My understanding is that Helios (a Titan) was actually the one who drove the Sun Chariot across the sky every day. But why, then, was Apollo the god of the Sun?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Am I correct in this understanding? Was Apollo (as a son of Zeus) sort of Helios's boss? He could ride the chariot if he wanted to, but he was also free to mate with Daphne, Cyrene and so forth, and otherwise meddle in human affairs, while Helios had to drive the bus every day? Or did it work another way?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="384" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="129" RevisionGUID="1d41dc90-76e2-4891-9859-10d3879df20f" CreationDate="2015-04-29T04:17:24.540" UserId="11" Text="What exactly did Apollo do with respect to the Sun?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="385" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="129" RevisionGUID="1d41dc90-76e2-4891-9859-10d3879df20f" CreationDate="2015-04-29T04:17:24.540" UserId="11" Text="|greek|sun|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="386" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="130" RevisionGUID="d729fa90-ede0-40ae-b927-19514241d7d0" CreationDate="2015-04-29T04:37:02.990" UserId="108" Text="1966 was a [`hinoe-uma (丙午)`](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bingwu) year. This does not come from &quot;crossing zodiac with elements&quot; per se, but is instead a specific combination of [*celestial stem*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_stem) and [*earthly branch*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthly_Branches) in the traditional [sexagenary dating system](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexagenary_cycle).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Both** the stem `hinoe (丙)` and branch `uma (午)` belonged to the element of fire. This overabundance of fieriness led to the belief in Japan that this is a year of disasters and also informs the astrological interpretations that those born on this year have a fiery character - impulsive, vociferous, quick to anger.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Specifically, there is a traditional superstition in Japan that women born in the year of `hinoe-uma` would shorten their husbands' life (and presumably vice versa but not quite as oft-repeated). This interpretation seems motivated (with little basis) by the [great fires of Edo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fires_in_Edo), and was popularised along with such tales as that of attempted arsonist [Yaoya Oshichi](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaoya_Oshichi).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Oshichi had a crush on someone she met during a previous fire, and attempted to set another fire in order to meet him again. Notably, she is believed to have been born in 1666, a `hinoe-um` year.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="387" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="65" RevisionGUID="894792c7-f3a5-44e1-b68f-37f8a945c2f2" CreationDate="2015-04-29T04:38:19.117" UserId="58" Comment="edited tags" Text="|interpretation|celtic|shared-elements|mythical-creatures|symbolism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="388" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="131" RevisionGUID="83162dfb-997b-4d4b-af74-43fc1d13a885" CreationDate="2015-04-29T04:47:47.540" UserId="108" Text="In Norse mythology, [Líf and Lífþrasir](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%ADf_and_L%C3%ADf%C3%BErasir) are supposed to survive [Ragnarök](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar%C3%B6k) and repopulate the world by hiding in [Hoddmímis holt](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoddm%C3%ADmis_holt). How is it that Hoddmímis holt is able to survive the destruction of the world, and why are Lif and Lífþrasir and only two humans to hide in it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="389" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="131" RevisionGUID="83162dfb-997b-4d4b-af74-43fc1d13a885" CreationDate="2015-04-29T04:47:47.540" UserId="108" Text="How Hoddmímis holt able to protect humans from Ragnarök?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="390" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="131" RevisionGUID="83162dfb-997b-4d4b-af74-43fc1d13a885" CreationDate="2015-04-29T04:47:47.540" UserId="108" Text="|norse|ragnarok|apocalypse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="391" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="98" RevisionGUID="4530c2a8-7c4e-484b-9901-a661d9d45a27" CreationDate="2015-04-29T04:53:28.987" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="title clearer" Text="How did Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades decide who would rule what?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="392" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="98" RevisionGUID="4530c2a8-7c4e-484b-9901-a661d9d45a27" CreationDate="2015-04-29T04:53:28.987" Comment="Proposed by 62 approved by 79 edit id of 21" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="393" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="132" RevisionGUID="c7a5710a-6ac7-4eac-a00d-74933b0a825c" CreationDate="2015-04-29T05:17:52.143" UserId="110" Text="According to Hesiod's Theogony at first there was Chaos, from Chaos came Eros and Tartarus, Erebus and Aether, from Aether came Gaia and from Gaia came Urenus, Ourea and Pontus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who created Chaos? How did Chaos create it's children" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="394" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="132" RevisionGUID="c7a5710a-6ac7-4eac-a00d-74933b0a825c" CreationDate="2015-04-29T05:17:52.143" UserId="110" Text="Who created the Primordials?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="395" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="132" RevisionGUID="c7a5710a-6ac7-4eac-a00d-74933b0a825c" CreationDate="2015-04-29T05:17:52.143" UserId="110" Text="|ancient-greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="396" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="133" RevisionGUID="389e1e00-644b-4506-bfbf-f56248c8c63d" CreationDate="2015-04-29T05:23:52.693" UserId="110" Text="Romans had little mythology of their own when they occupied Greece. One of the many aspects they were lacking cultural wise that they borrowed from Greece. Thus they inherited many (or the lot) of ancient greek mythology which led to their existing Gods getting many of the characteristics of the Ancient greek ones." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="397" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="134" RevisionGUID="447b9bbf-4252-4bc9-b315-f14d6d79dc8d" CreationDate="2015-04-29T05:26:32.667" UserId="110" Text="Romans had little mythology of their own when they occupied Greece. One of the many aspects they were lacking cultural wise that they borrowed from Greece. Thus they inherited many (or the lot) of ancient greek mythology which led to their existing Gods getting many of the characteristics of the Ancient greek ones.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example he cult of Sun was introduced in Rome after Aurelian's (around 260) successful campaigns in Syria. At that time the Asiatic divinities Mithras (that is to say, the Sun) and Ba'al were combined with Apollo and Helios into one Sol Invictus(Unconquered Sun), with conglomerated rites and compound attributes. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="400" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="135" RevisionGUID="b35e6e0a-6df6-4366-96bb-8b35c3197d1b" CreationDate="2015-04-29T05:33:21.123" UserId="110" Text="According to Christian Mythology Adam and Eve were the first people created. So their children were living alone in the world. &#xD;&#xA;In genesis 4:16-17 it says that Kain left Eden and went towards the east to live. There he met his wife and got married and had a child. Where did that woman come from? Wasn't Adam and Even the first people created? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="401" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="135" RevisionGUID="b35e6e0a-6df6-4366-96bb-8b35c3197d1b" CreationDate="2015-04-29T05:33:21.123" UserId="110" Text="Who did Adam and Eve's son marry?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="402" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="135" RevisionGUID="b35e6e0a-6df6-4366-96bb-8b35c3197d1b" CreationDate="2015-04-29T05:33:21.123" UserId="110" Text="|christianity|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="404" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="136" RevisionGUID="be2d5be7-57d6-4010-bfb2-ec02198267c0" CreationDate="2015-04-29T05:45:35.737" UserId="108" Text="**Common Ancestry**&#xD;&#xA;-------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Both the Ancient Greeks and Romans were descended from [Proto-Indo-Europeans](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans).** While the two groups had diverged, they continued to share remnants of a common language and other features including mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most obvious sign of this is the chief deities of their respective pantheons: [Zeus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus) and [Jupiter](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_(mythology)): both derive from the Proto-Indo-European sky deity [***Dyēus ph&lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt;ter**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyeus). Their counterparts could be found in various Indo-European mythologies, including the Germanic [Týr](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%BDr), the Baltic [Dievas](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dievas), and the Vedic [Dyaus Pita](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyaus_Pita).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, Greek and Roman mythologies exhibit great similarities due to them being cousins.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Syncretism**&#xD;&#xA;--------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Furthermore, from the earliest period of the Republic, Roman religious belief had [adopted](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syncretism) Greek elements. **This begun extremely early, and far predates the Roman conquest of Greece.** One example is [Apollo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo#Roman_Apollo), who was directly adopted into the Roman pantheon. [A temple for him](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Apollo_Sosianus) was erected in Rome as early as 431 BC, long before the [Romans conquered Greece in 141 BC](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Corinth_(146_BC)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One way in which Greek beliefs were transmitted to the early Romans was via the [Etruscans](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_civilization). After their conquest by the Roman Republic, elements from the Etruscan belief system were integrated into classical Roman culture. In this way, the Etruscans bequeathed notable Greek influence on their own mythology to the Romans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For instance, the Etruscan [Menrva](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menrva) passed on influences from the Greek [Athena](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athena) to the Roman [Minerva](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minerva). Another example is [](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_(mythology)), who inherited traits of the Greek [Hermes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes) from the Etruscan [Turms](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turms). Both long predates the Roman mastery of Greece; Mercury had a temple on [Aventine]() as early as 495 BC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is not accurate to say that Rome inherited Greek religions because she had &quot;little mythology&quot; when she conquered Greece, although Greek culture did went on to be highly influential on Rome (&quot;*Captive Greece captured her rude conqueror*&quot;)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="405" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="131" RevisionGUID="5e2d96d6-5748-41d9-907f-129e815edc54" CreationDate="2015-04-29T05:50:13.360" UserId="108" Comment="edited title" Text="How is Hoddmímis holt able to protect humans from Ragnarök?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="406" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="137" RevisionGUID="3ad61785-8bce-4697-b06d-f2450ef13848" CreationDate="2015-04-29T06:10:04.867" UserId="58" Text="Adam and Eve had more children; this is found in Genesis 5:4&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found my answer on [this Christian site](http://bibleresources.org/cains-wife/). On that particular site it is argued that the woman Cain married had to be one of his sisters. They argue against the theory that God created other humans as well, saying that according to the Bible all men descended from Adam. (I'm still looking for an exact bible verse to say that, but it fits with what I've been taught).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The relationship would be incestual, but the command against incest appears in Leviticus - it is given long after the events in Genesis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="407" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="138" RevisionGUID="83f9201a-fd42-4530-9de4-b0c9c7589669" CreationDate="2015-04-29T06:11:39.063" UserId="91" Text="Analogous to the Greek Zeus or the Norse Odin, who is the supreme god in the Chinese folk religion pantheon?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems that this may be the concept of [&quot;Tai Di&quot;][1], or *primordial divinity*, but it's unclear *who* this is, as in various contexts, this could be the [Jade Emperor][2], or [Shangdi][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which one is the supreme god? Are they different names for the same god? Or are they all supreme gods but belonging to different varieties of Chinese mythology?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primordial_Divinity_(Tai_Di)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jade_Emperor&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shangdi" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="408" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="138" RevisionGUID="83f9201a-fd42-4530-9de4-b0c9c7589669" CreationDate="2015-04-29T06:11:39.063" UserId="91" Text="Who is the Chinese supreme god?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="409" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="138" RevisionGUID="83f9201a-fd42-4530-9de4-b0c9c7589669" CreationDate="2015-04-29T06:11:39.063" UserId="91" Text="|chinese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="410" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="139" RevisionGUID="6446de17-6d42-477c-b11d-26ccb018ffb3" CreationDate="2015-04-29T06:16:41.287" UserId="79" Text="Adam and Eve had many other unnamed sons and daughters besides Seth, Kain and Abel (Gen. 5:4). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Marriage to a sister in the early stage of the human race was not considere wrong or unnatural. Even later on Abraham’s wife was his half-sister (20:12); also 24:4 and 28:2. God did not prohibit such marriages until the time of Moses when is was specifically stated it was against the law of God according to Lev. 18:9, 18:11, 20:17, and Deut. 27:22.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Because there were no human beings except those born of Adam and Eve, sibling marriages were a necessity. St Augustine says,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;As, therefore, the human race, subsequently to the first marriage of the man who was made of dust, and his wife who was made out of his side, required the union of males and females in order that it might multiply, and as there were no human beings except those who had been born of these two, men took their sisters for wives,—an act which was as certainly dictated by necessity in these ancient days as afterwards it was condemned by the prohibitions of religion . . . and though it was quite allowable in the earliest ages of the human race to marry one’s sister, it is now abhorred as a thing which no circumstances could justify. (The City of God XV.16)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So Kain married a woman who was related to him by blood.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Catholic](https://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/adam-and-eve-had-three-children-cain-able-and-seth-who-married-and-had-children-whom-)&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="411" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="140" RevisionGUID="deb046b8-28f9-47c3-a69b-4b5c4d185401" CreationDate="2015-04-29T06:35:40.323" UserId="79" Text="Hindu gods, most notably, Shiva, Krishna, Vishnu, Kali, are depicted as blue colored beings. But there are also depictions of them being either dark skinned or having a normal skin tone. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any textual evidence regarding the color of the skin of the gods? Or were these ideas of skin color made up by the illustrator?    " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="412" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="140" RevisionGUID="deb046b8-28f9-47c3-a69b-4b5c4d185401" CreationDate="2015-04-29T06:35:40.323" UserId="79" Text="Is there any textual evidence that confirms the color of Hindu gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="413" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="140" RevisionGUID="deb046b8-28f9-47c3-a69b-4b5c4d185401" CreationDate="2015-04-29T06:35:40.323" UserId="79" Text="|hindu|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="414" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="141" RevisionGUID="904751d4-a1ee-42c1-afcf-ebca99609799" CreationDate="2015-04-29T06:38:32.997" UserId="91" Text="Bears have a prominent place in the Korean creation myth: [Ungnyeo][1] was the name of a bear that turned into a woman, who gave birth to [Dangun][2], the legendary first Korean king. So really, Ungnyeo the bear-woman was the mother of the Korean people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the creation myth states that a tiger also wanted to be turned into a human, and it prayed together with Ungnyeo to be turned human, but gave up due to hunger. By this story alone, tigers should be *less* revered in Korean culture than bears, but the reverse is so: [tigers are much more revered][3], some sources saying that South Korea's national animal is the [tiger][4] (as the bald eagle is for USA), and the [mascot for the 1988 Seoul olympics][5] was a tiger.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whilst I'll admit tigers are much cooler than bears, it doesn't explain the conspicuous absence of bears in Korean culture, when compared to the tiger. Did bears lose their status at some point in history? Or sexism? Or is there more to Korean mythology that would cause people to lose respect for bears?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ungnyeo&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dangun&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_in_Korean_culture&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hodori" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="415" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="141" RevisionGUID="904751d4-a1ee-42c1-afcf-ebca99609799" CreationDate="2015-04-29T06:38:32.997" UserId="91" Text="Why aren't bears more revered in Korean culture?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="416" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="141" RevisionGUID="904751d4-a1ee-42c1-afcf-ebca99609799" CreationDate="2015-04-29T06:38:32.997" UserId="91" Text="|korean|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="419" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="143" RevisionGUID="ec663abb-ff76-4372-96f0-d07958470253" CreationDate="2015-04-29T06:58:44.137" UserId="57" Text="Chaos is the primeval void, the starting point in Hesiod's theogony. No one created it, it just came to be: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tell how at the first gods and earth came to be, and rivers, and the boundless sea with its raging swell, and the gleaming stars, and the wide heaven above, and the gods who were born of them, givers of good things, and how they divided their wealth, and how they shared their honors amongst them, and also how at the first they took many-folded Olympus. These things declare to me from the beginning, you Muses who dwell in the house of Olympus, and tell me which of them first came to be. In truth at first Chaos came to be, but next wide-bosomed Earth, the ever-sure foundation of all1the deathless ones who hold the peaks of snowy Olympus, and dim Tartarus in the depth of the wide-pathed Earth,  and Eros （Love）, fairest among the deathless gods, who unnerves the limbs and overcomes the mind and wise counsels of all gods and all men within them. From Chaos came forth Erebus and black Night; but of Night were born Aether2and Day, whom she conceived and bore from union in love with Erebus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Hes. Th. 116](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hes.+Th.+116)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="421" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="144" RevisionGUID="c0850b18-6a9a-4538-9a3e-63011330fcc7" CreationDate="2015-04-29T07:17:06.123" UserId="108" Text="**The [`haotian shang-ti (昊天上帝)`](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shangdi) is the supreme deity of *traditional* Chinese religions.** He is attested to in the earliest Chinese writings as `ti` or [`tian`](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tian), and thus dates to the earliest period in Chinese civilisation. This is also the belief maintained in [Confucianism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucianism). His name is usually abbreviated to just `shang-ti`.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In contrast, the [Jade Emperor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jade_Emperor) is the ruler of heaven in the [***Taoist* tradition**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism). While the Judaeo-Christian narrative identifies this position as supreme, the same is not true in Taoism. Instead, the Jade Emperor is subordinate to the [Three Purities](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Pure_Ones) and thus, by definition, **not supreme**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a side note, the Jade Emperor emerged in the [late Han Dynasty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_dynasty#Eastern_Han). For some period during the same dynasty, the [Pole Star](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris) was elevated into the supreme as deity [`tai-yi (太乙)`](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiyi), eclipsing `shang-ti`. Confucianism ultimately rejected this interpretation however, and Taiyi was subsequently demoted." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="422" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3" RevisionGUID="71b0a8a3-aa20-4c03-8a8d-240a6222f519" CreationDate="2015-04-29T07:23:54.687" UserId="13" Comment="deleted 62 characters in body" Text="I know in mythologies such as Greek mythology, gods and goddesses would act as patrons. For example, Athena was the patron goddess of Athens. Did the gods and goddesses in Norse mythology have any sort of similar patronage system for certain cities or regions?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="423" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="145" RevisionGUID="16e91857-ab7e-4819-8dd0-59833dd6c7f1" CreationDate="2015-04-29T07:29:46.177" UserId="57" Text="Apollo didn't have any solar properties in Homeric times, and he and Helios were clearly distinct entities. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the 5th century and onwards Helios started to be identified with Apollo, and Apollo acquired the epithet &quot;Phoebus&quot; (shining). An early reference to the fusion of the two beings can be found in fragment 781 of Euripidis' Faethon, where the poet tells us that Helios is &quot;rightly called Apollo&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ὦ καλλιφεγγὲς Ἥλι᾿, ὥς μ᾿ ἀπώλεσας καὶ τόνδ᾿ Ἀπόλλων δ᾿ ἐν βροτοῖς ὀρθῶς καλῇ, ὅστις τὰ σιγῶντ᾿ ἀνόματ᾿ οἶδε δαιμόνων. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The association became a lot more commonplace during Hellenistic times. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="424" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="143" RevisionGUID="93a530f8-eda2-4de0-83ef-4e199fa3df98" CreationDate="2015-04-29T07:31:10.403" UserId="57" Comment="edited body" Text="Chaos is the primeval void, the starting point in Hesiod's theogony. No one created it, it just came to be: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tell how at the first gods and earth came to be, and rivers, and the boundless sea with its raging swell, and the gleaming stars, and the wide heaven above, and the gods who were born of them, givers of good things, and how they divided their wealth, and how they shared their honors amongst them, and also how at the first they took many-folded Olympus. These things declare to me from the beginning, you Muses who dwell in the house of Olympus, and tell me which of them first came to be. In truth at first Chaos came to be, but next wide-bosomed Earth, the ever-sure foundation of all1the deathless ones who hold the peaks of snowy Olympus, and dim Tartarus in the depth of the wide-pathed Earth, and Eros (Love), fairest among the deathless gods, who unnerves the limbs and overcomes the mind and wise counsels of all gods and all men within them. From Chaos came forth Erebus and black Night; but of Night were born Aether and Day, whom she conceived and bore from union in love with Erebus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Hes. Th. 116](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hes.+Th.+116)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="425" PostHistoryTypeId="12" PostId="144" RevisionGUID="a6b3e376-d408-42ee-aff3-e8707b1f5cbe" CreationDate="2015-04-29T07:38:36.427" UserId="108" Comment="via Vote" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:108,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Semaphore&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="426" PostHistoryTypeId="13" PostId="144" RevisionGUID="09fc706f-5f94-4368-b8c4-3d99103c779c" CreationDate="2015-04-29T07:41:18.500" UserId="108" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:108,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Semaphore&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="427" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="146" RevisionGUID="bfdf57fb-071f-4da6-b9ce-324a9ae6042d" CreationDate="2015-04-29T07:45:39.570" UserId="117" Text="Did the ancient Greeks believe that the number 12 symbolized everything? Was it random that there were 12 gods and no more (or less)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="428" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="146" RevisionGUID="bfdf57fb-071f-4da6-b9ce-324a9ae6042d" CreationDate="2015-04-29T07:45:39.570" UserId="117" Text="Why were there 12 Olympian Gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="429" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="146" RevisionGUID="bfdf57fb-071f-4da6-b9ce-324a9ae6042d" CreationDate="2015-04-29T07:45:39.570" UserId="117" Text="|greek|interpretation|ancient-greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="430" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="147" RevisionGUID="f6dbca37-5a61-4aa0-9928-08762aabd418" CreationDate="2015-04-29T08:02:04.393" UserId="118" Text="There are NOT only 12 Olympian gods, there were 12 gods in the council that presided over Olympus, these were Zeus's immediate family (minus Hades) and did not include minor deities such as Nemesis, Hypnos, Nike, etc. So the number of gods was (at least in the myth, It may have been symbolic in Greece(I don't know much about real Greek history)) dependent on the number of gods in the Olympian family." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="431" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="148" RevisionGUID="8c0437c5-c8c5-4a5f-a572-e3536995131c" CreationDate="2015-04-29T08:31:04.763" UserId="29" Text="The number `12` is used in most religions as something holy and perfect. In every religion you can see that the number twelve is always present in main events or facts:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;e.g.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* **Greek Mythology**: Labours of Hercules, the Dodecatheon and twelve Titans, according to Hesiod.&#xD;&#xA;* **Christianity**: The 12 Disciples of Christ&#xD;&#xA;* **Norse Mythology**: Odin had 12 sons&#xD;&#xA;* **Islam**:  There are twelve Imams, legitimate successors of the Islamic prophet.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are way too many examples where 12 is used and I it's probably because `12` had a special place for ancient people, since the use of the [Duodecimal][1] and [Sexagesimal][2] systems was widespread at the time and it's actually the first base used in arithmetics. I have found no reference (and I believe there isn't any) as to **why** it is deemed a special number, apart from the fact that it had many mathematical properties, such as being the first number with six divisors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duodecimal&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexagesimal" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="432" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="148" RevisionGUID="2bace481-6cb5-44de-9b72-4572c34a896e" CreationDate="2015-04-29T09:02:35.000" UserId="29" Comment="added 3 characters in body" Text="The number `12` is used in most religions as something holy and perfect. In every religion you can see that the number twelve is always present in main events or facts:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;e.g.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* **Greek Mythology**: Labours of Hercules, the Dodecatheon and twelve Titans, according to Hesiod.&#xD;&#xA;* **Christianity**: The 12 Disciples of Christ&#xD;&#xA;* **Norse Mythology**: Odin had 12 sons&#xD;&#xA;* **Islam**:  There are twelve Imams, legitimate successors of the Islamic prophet.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are way too many examples where 12 is used and I it's probably because `12` had a special place for ancient people, since the use of the [Duodecimal][1] and [Sexagesimal][2] systems was widespread at the time and it's actually the first systems used in arithmetics. I have found no reference (and I believe there isn't any) as to **why** it is deemed a special number, apart from the fact that it had many mathematical properties, such as being the first number with six divisors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duodecimal&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexagesimal" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="433" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="149" RevisionGUID="4aa92e88-a422-4bd4-88c1-77dbee1b3379" CreationDate="2015-04-29T09:04:16.267" UserId="119" Text="According to Hesiod, by the time the Olympians came to power, Golden man had vanished. [Hugh G. Evelyn-White's translation of _Works and Days_ (from ellopos.net)](http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/ancient-greece/hesiod/works-days.asp?pg=4) describes them as&#xD;&#xA;&gt;(ll. 109-120) First of all the deathless gods who dwell on Olympus made a golden race of mortal men who lived in the time of Cronos when he was reigning in heaven. And they lived like gods without sorrow of heart, remote and free from toil and grief: miserable age rested not on them; but with legs and arms never failing they made merry with feasting beyond the reach of all evils. When they died, it was as though they were overcome with sleep, and they had all good things; for the fruitful earth unforced bare them fruit abundantly and without stint. They dwelt in ease and peace upon their lands with many good things, rich in flocks and loved by the blessed gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They were loved _by_ the gods, but nothing is mentioned about man worshipping or serving the gods.&#xD;&#xA;It seems it was Zeus who first demanded that of the Silver man (same source):&#xD;&#xA;&gt;(ll. 121-139) [...] But when they were full grown and were come to the full measure of their prime, they lived only a little time in sorrow because of their foolishness, for they could not keep from sinning and from wronging one another, nor would they serve the immortals, nor sacrifice on the holy altars of the blessed ones as it is right for men to do wherever they dwell. Then Zeus the son of Cronos was angry and put them away, because they would not give honour to the blessed gods who live on Olympus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And then on it goes to the Bronze and finally the Iron age. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At least according to Hesiod it seems the Titans didn't need worhip, at least from the Golden man. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for real people worshipping Titans, I can't think of a culture that worshipped Titans exclusively, but Cronos had a temple at the foot of the Acropolis in Athens, so at least one Titan was worshipped by real people, as [cosmovision](http://www.cosmovisions.com/$Cronos.htm) states:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cronos ne figure guère que dans les mythes théogoniques; pourtant il avait un temple à Athènes au pied de l'Acropole.  &#xD;&#xA;_Cronos hardly played a part in mythology except in theogenic myths; and yet, he had a temple in Athens at the foot of the Acropolis._&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And of course there is the temple of Saturn in Rome ([Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Saturn)) and the Roman Saturnalia ([Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturnalia)), as well as the day after Friday. Saturn is usually seen as the Roman association of Cronos, so at least that one Titan did get worshipped quite a lot by real people, although, admittedly, it seems never to exclude the Olympians." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="434" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="127" RevisionGUID="43353e7a-167d-4e20-b4a9-dc766a0ca0ab" CreationDate="2015-04-29T09:15:00.777" UserId="86" Comment="added 100 characters in body" Text="Before the gods of Olympus came to power, the humans didn't have fire (since Promotheus stole it from the gods to give to to the humans) so I would assume that the greeks didn't consider any culture could exist before that. Even if one did exist it must not have been very developped.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are some non humans who sided with the titans like the giants or cyclops so you could maybe consider them as a culture." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="435" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="127" RevisionGUID="8d0c302a-4117-434c-b95f-fec04ed6aa05" CreationDate="2015-04-29T09:33:46.350" UserId="86" Comment="added 859 characters in body" Text="If we only consider humans cultures, there is not really any human culture before the gods of Olympus came to power. Prometheus is the one that created humankind and then gave them fire (which represents the superiority of humans over mere animals), as written [here][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; PROMETHEUS was the Titan god of forethought and crafty counsel who was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; entrusted with the task of moulding mankind out of clay. His attempts&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to better the lives of his creation brought him into direct conflict&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with Zeus. Firstly he tricked the gods out of the best portion of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sacrificial feast, acquiring the meat for the feasting of man. Then,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; when Zeus withheld fire, he stole it from heaven and delivered it to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mortal kind hidden inside a fennel-stalk.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So since the humans only knew the Olympian rule, they never had to fear the Titans and worship them. They were thought to be powerless after their defeat in the [Titanomachy][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The war lasted ten years, but eventually Zeus and the other Olympians won, the Titans were imprisoned in Tartarus, and the Hecatonchires were made their guards. Atlas was given the special punishment of holding up the sky.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanPrometheus.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanomachy" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="436" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="150" RevisionGUID="23379f7e-3436-4c8b-950c-cabcaf6fd864" CreationDate="2015-04-29T09:44:12.347" UserId="57" Text="An early reference to a herma can be found in Aesop's (620–564 BCE) fables: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ἐν ὁδῷ τις Ἑρμῆς τετράγωνος εἱστήκει, λίθων δ᾿ ὑπ᾿ αὐτῷ σωρὸς ἦν. κύων τούτῳ εἶπεν προσελθών “χαῖρε πρῶτον, Ἑρμεία ἔπειτ᾿ ἀλεῖψαι βούλομαί σε, μηδ᾿ οὕτω θεὸν παρελθεῖν, καὶ θεὸν παλαιστρίτην.” ὁ δ᾿ εἶπεν “ἤν μου τοῦτο μὴ ’πιλιχμήσῃς τοὔλαιον ἐλθών, μηδέ μοι προσουρήσῃς, χάριν εἴσομαί σοι· καὶ πλέον με μὴ τίμα.”  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Babrius collection, tale 48&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another reference that shows the statues were known at least as early as the 6th century BCE can be found in Plato's [Hipparchus][1]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ... he proceeded next, with the design of educating those of the countryside, to set up figures of Hermes for them along the roads in the midst of the city and every district town; and then, after selecting from his own wise lore, both learnt from others and discovered for himself, the things that he considered the wisest, he threw these into elegiac form and inscribed them on the figures as verses of his own and testimonies of his wisdom, so that in the first place,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; Source: [Plat. Hipparch. 228d](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0176%3Atext%3DHipparch.%3Asection%3D228d) &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the origin of the statues, Herodotus tells us that the Athenians learned the production of the hermai not from the Egyptians but from the [Pelasgians](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians) (via the [Samothracians](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samothrace)): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These customs, then, and others besides, which I shall indicate, were taken by the Greeks from the Egyptians. It was not so with the ithyphallic images of Hermes; the production of these came from the Pelasgians, from whom the Athenians were the first Greeks to take it, and then handed it on to others. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; For the Athenians were then already counted as Greeks when the Pelasgians came to live in the land with them and thereby began to be considered as Greeks. Whoever has been initiated into the rites of the Cabeiri, which the Samothracians learned from the Pelasgians and now practice, understands what my meaning is.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; Source: [Hdt. 2.51.1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126%3Abook%3D2%3Achapter%3D51%3Asection%3D1), [Hdt. 2.51.2](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126%3Abook%3D2%3Achapter%3D51%3Asection%3D2)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hipparchus_%28son_of_Peisistratos%29" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="437" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="151" RevisionGUID="873166e1-066e-4608-ba45-8e2ebe04793f" CreationDate="2015-04-29T09:45:05.080" UserId="123" Text="in oral legends i heard, djinn were humanoids with goat hoofs who disliked salt. (only the hoofs, not legs or lower parts like fauns)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;they are not trully invisible but live in a sort of parrallele world a bit like islandic fae. they co-exist, or occupy the same space as humans so there are sometimes interactions, including cross-species mariages. in some legends they have knowledge of treasures but in others they are just like us.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;i also remember another type with is similar to nagas, they are woman headed great snakes that can slide upright thought the desert. don't ask for refetrences, this is from stories i vaguely remember from childhood.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;i think that one of the problems is that these terms are wiledly used in arabic for various supernatural phenomenon. djins are also blamed for possessions, hauntings and mental illnesses.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ghul is also a broad term that emcompasses beasts, monsters, scary things or any frightning uncontrolable entity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;the surest way to hunt down the pre-islamic roots is through jewish, babilonian, and assirian mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="438" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="140" RevisionGUID="f999a9f7-0c95-4559-b5b9-ee74c572c8cd" CreationDate="2015-04-29T09:48:25.967" UserId="79" Comment="added 106 characters in body" Text="Hindu gods, most notably, Shiva, Krishna, Vishnu, Kali, are depicted as blue colored beings. But there are also depictions of them being either dark skinned ([black](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/RadhaKrishnaUdaipur.JPG)) or having a skin tone resembling a normal human. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any textual evidence regarding the color of the skin of the gods? Or were these ideas of skin color made up by the illustrator?    " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="439" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="152" RevisionGUID="3a7e1201-8db8-45b9-b82b-68c35cbfb77d" CreationDate="2015-04-29T09:55:39.077" UserId="123" Text="i beleive it may be the tritons, but there are probably other part fish- part humain plus there was a fish headed god in antiquity (not greco-romain).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;a side note is that there was some mistranslations and some of the &quot;sirens&quot; in greek tales where half-birds and not half-fish (harpies and not mermaids)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://www.crystalinks.com/sirens.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;In Greek mythology, the Sirens were three dangerous bird-women, portrayed as seductresses who lured nearby sailors with their enchanting music and voices to shipwreck on the rocky coast of their island. Roman poets placed them on an island called Sirenum scopuli. In some later, rationalized traditions, the literal geography of the &quot;flowery&quot; island of Anthemoessa, or Anthemusa, is fixed: sometimes on Cape Pelorum and at others in the islands known as the Sirenuse, near Paestum, or in Capreae. All such locations were surrounded by cliffs and rocks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;When the Sirens were given a parentage they were considered the daughters of the river god Achelous, fathered upon Terpsichore, Melpomene, Sterope, or Chthon (the Earth; in Euripides' Helen 167, Helen in her anguish calls upon &quot;Winged maidens, daughters of the Earth&quot;). Although they lured mariners, for the Greeks the Sirens in their &quot;meadow starred with flowers&quot; were not sea deities. Roman writers linked the Sirens more closely to the sea, as daughters of Phorcys.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Their number is variously reported as between two and five. In the Odyssey, Homer says nothing of their origin or names, but gives the number of the Sirens as two. Later writers mention both their names and number: some state that there were three, Peisinoe, Aglaope, and Thelxiepeia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Sirens of Greek mythology are sometimes portrayed in later folklore as fully aquatic and mermaid-like; the facts that in Spanish, French, Italian, Polish, Romanian and Portuguese the word for mermaid is respectively Sirena, Sirene, Sirena, Syrena, Sirena and Sereia, and that in biology the Sirenia comprise an order of fully aquatic mammals that includes the dugong and manatee, add to the visual confusion, so that Sirens are even represented as mermaids. However, &quot;the sirens, though they sing to mariners, are not sea-maidens,&quot; Harrison had cautioned; &quot;they dwell on an island in a flowery meadow.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="440" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="150" RevisionGUID="0c4e7e2a-6d64-4c44-b9e5-00944ea29009" CreationDate="2015-04-29T09:57:49.183" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 28 characters in body" Text="An early reference to a herma can be found in Aesop's (620–564 BCE) fables: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ἐν ὁδῷ τις Ἑρμῆς τετράγωνος εἱστήκει, λίθων δ᾿ ὑπ᾿ αὐτῷ σωρὸς ἦν. κύων τούτῳ εἶπεν προσελθών “χαῖρε πρῶτον, Ἑρμεία ἔπειτ᾿ ἀλεῖψαι βούλομαί σε, μηδ᾿ οὕτω θεὸν παρελθεῖν, καὶ θεὸν παλαιστρίτην.” ὁ δ᾿ εἶπεν “ἤν μου τοῦτο μὴ ’πιλιχμήσῃς τοὔλαιον ἐλθών, μηδέ μοι προσουρήσῃς, χάριν εἴσομαί σοι· καὶ πλέον με μὴ τίμα.”  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Babrius collection, tale 48&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another reference that shows the statues were known at least as early as the 6th century BCE can be found in Plato's [Hipparchus][1]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ... he proceeded next, with the design of educating those of the countryside, to set up figures of Hermes for them along the roads in the midst of the city and every district town; and then, after selecting from his own wise lore, both learnt from others and discovered for himself, the things that he considered the wisest, he threw these into elegiac form and inscribed them on the figures as verses of his own and testimonies of his wisdom, so that in the first place,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; Source: [Plat. Hipparch. 228d](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0176%3Atext%3DHipparch.%3Asection%3D228d) &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the origin of the statues, Herodotus tells us that the Athenians learned the production of the hermai from the [Pelasgians](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians), via the [Samothracians](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samothrace): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These customs, then, and others besides, which I shall indicate, were taken by the Greeks from the Egyptians. It was not so with the ithyphallic images of Hermes; the production of these came from the Pelasgians, from whom the Athenians were the first Greeks to take it, and then handed it on to others. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; For the Athenians were then already counted as Greeks when the Pelasgians came to live in the land with them and thereby began to be considered as Greeks. Whoever has been initiated into the rites of the Cabeiri, which the Samothracians learned from the Pelasgians and now practice, understands what my meaning is.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; Source: [Hdt. 2.51.1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126%3Abook%3D2%3Achapter%3D51%3Asection%3D1), [Hdt. 2.51.2](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126%3Abook%3D2%3Achapter%3D51%3Asection%3D2)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hipparchus_%28son_of_Peisistratos%29" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="441" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="153" RevisionGUID="0b640c2a-87bd-42e4-87fd-1c98dedab873" CreationDate="2015-04-29T10:00:11.427" UserDisplayName="user124" Text="Related to the question [How long ago was the Dreaming?][1], according to the Wikipedia [Rainbow Serpent][2] page, the Rainbow Serpent is an integral part of many indigenous Australian cultures, and specifically&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The most common motif in Rainbow Serpent stories is the Serpent as creator, with the Serpent often bringing life to an empty space&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Why is the serpent the most common motif for creation in indigenous Australian cultures?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/109/how-long-ago-was-the-dreaming&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_Serpent" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="442" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="153" RevisionGUID="0b640c2a-87bd-42e4-87fd-1c98dedab873" CreationDate="2015-04-29T10:00:11.427" UserDisplayName="user124" Text="Why is the serpent the most common motif for creation in indigenous Australian cultures?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="443" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="153" RevisionGUID="0b640c2a-87bd-42e4-87fd-1c98dedab873" CreationDate="2015-04-29T10:00:11.427" UserDisplayName="user124" Text="|creation|symbolism|australian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="444" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="114" RevisionGUID="4ffd13c4-612e-4c88-8006-661269bb176c" CreationDate="2015-04-29T10:05:02.547" UserId="-1" Comment="101" Text="{&quot;OriginalQuestionIds&quot;:[110],&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Yannis&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:79,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ero Sɘnnin&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:117,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Shevliaskovic&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:22,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Stuart H&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:29,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;naltipar&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="445" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="151" RevisionGUID="90b048bb-171e-490f-a983-9349fb6eb615" CreationDate="2015-04-29T10:15:13.770" UserId="29" Comment="Fixed grammar" Text="In oral legends, I've heard, `Djinn` were humanoids with goat hoofs who disliked salt. (only the hoofs, not legs or lower parts like fauns)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They are not trully invisible but live in a sort of parrallel world a bit like islandic fae. they co-exist, or occupy the same space as humans so there are sometimes interactions, including cross-species marriages. In some legends they have knowledge of treasures but in others they are just like us.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I also remember another type with is similar to nagas, they are woman headed great snakes that can slide upright thought the desert. Don't ask for references, this is from stories I vaguely remember from childhood.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think that one of the problems is that these terms are wiledly used in arabic for various supernatural phenomenon. djins are also blamed for possessions, hauntings and mental illnesses.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ghul is also a broad term that emcompasses beasts, monsters, scary things or any frightning uncontrolable entity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The surest way to hunt down the pre-islamic roots is through Jewish, Babylonian, and Assyrian mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="446" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="151" RevisionGUID="90b048bb-171e-490f-a983-9349fb6eb615" CreationDate="2015-04-29T10:15:13.770" Comment="Proposed by 29 approved by 123 edit id of 25" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="447" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="118" RevisionGUID="e1aa4ad8-9fd6-433f-b44d-cdd0654aaab1" CreationDate="2015-04-29T10:17:47.457" UserId="79" Comment="capitalised" Text="According to Greek mythology, there was a mythical time known as the [Golden Age][1] where the Titans ruled and the [gods of Olympus][2] didn't exist.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Were there any real cultures that actually worshipped the Titans, to the exclusion of the Olympians? Or perhaps mythical cultures that did so?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Age&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Olympians" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="448" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="118" RevisionGUID="e1aa4ad8-9fd6-433f-b44d-cdd0654aaab1" CreationDate="2015-04-29T10:17:47.457" UserId="79" Comment="capitalised" Text="Who worshipped the Titans?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="449" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="118" RevisionGUID="e1aa4ad8-9fd6-433f-b44d-cdd0654aaab1" CreationDate="2015-04-29T10:17:47.457" Comment="Proposed by 79 approved by 91 edit id of 24" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="450" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="154" RevisionGUID="03d9aed1-142c-4d9a-987e-0b74572cf548" CreationDate="2015-04-29T10:31:38.310" UserId="32" Text="The god Thor, in many stories I have been exposed to, has a hammer that provides superpowers. In some versions of stories the powers are stronger then a God alone. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where did the Hammer come from? Who made it, or how was it made?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="451" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="154" RevisionGUID="03d9aed1-142c-4d9a-987e-0b74572cf548" CreationDate="2015-04-29T10:31:38.310" UserId="32" Text="Who made Thor's Hammer?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="452" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="154" RevisionGUID="03d9aed1-142c-4d9a-987e-0b74572cf548" CreationDate="2015-04-29T10:31:38.310" UserId="32" Text="|norse|gods|thor|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="453" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="140" RevisionGUID="3f242e53-2140-4185-bcb0-06e867c09866" CreationDate="2015-04-29T10:37:07.687" UserId="79" Comment="deleted 99 characters in body" Text="Hindu gods, most notably, Shiva, Krishna, Vishnu, Kali, are depicted as blue colored beings. But they are also depicted with many different skin colors, some looking&#xD;&#xA;more natural than others.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any textual evidence regarding the color of the skin of the gods? Or were these ideas of skin color made up by the illustrator?    " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="454" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="153" RevisionGUID="ef7a9173-704d-48a6-8006-3916d410faf6" CreationDate="2015-04-29T10:38:06.063" UserDisplayName="user124" Comment="added 8 characters in body; edited title" Text="Related to the question [How long ago was the Dreaming?][1], according to the Wikipedia [Rainbow Serpent][2] page, the Rainbow Serpent is an integral part of many indigenous Australian cultures, and specifically&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The most common motif in Rainbow Serpent stories is the Serpent as creator, with the Serpent often bringing life to an empty space&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Why is the Rainbow Serpent the most common motif s the creator in indigenous Australian cultures?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/109/how-long-ago-was-the-dreaming&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_Serpent" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="455" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="153" RevisionGUID="ef7a9173-704d-48a6-8006-3916d410faf6" CreationDate="2015-04-29T10:38:06.063" UserDisplayName="user124" Comment="added 8 characters in body; edited title" Text="Why is the Rainbow Serpent the most common motif as the creator in indigenous Australian cultures?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="456" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="154" RevisionGUID="015a01d2-36bd-46f8-93c1-7b875a3a97e8" CreationDate="2015-04-29T10:39:25.613" UserId="32" Comment="edited body" Text="The God Thor, in many stories I have been exposed to, has a hammer that provides superpowers. In some versions of stories the powers are stronger then a God alone. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where did the Hammer come from? Who made it, or how was it made?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="457" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="153" RevisionGUID="43421eb1-327d-4a1b-bef6-c1641067cb3f" CreationDate="2015-04-29T10:44:05.913" UserDisplayName="user124" Comment="deleted 7 characters in body; edited title" Text="Related to the question [How long ago was the Dreaming?][1], according to the Wikipedia [Rainbow Serpent][2] page, the Rainbow Serpent is an integral part of many indigenous Australian cultures, and specifically&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The most common motif in Rainbow Serpent stories is the Serpent as creator, with the Serpent often bringing life to an empty space&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Why is the Serpent the most common motif as the creator in indigenous Australian cultures?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/109/how-long-ago-was-the-dreaming&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_Serpent" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="458" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="153" RevisionGUID="43421eb1-327d-4a1b-bef6-c1641067cb3f" CreationDate="2015-04-29T10:44:05.913" UserDisplayName="user124" Comment="deleted 7 characters in body; edited title" Text="Why is the Serpent the most common motif as the creator in indigenous Australian cultures?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="459" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="155" RevisionGUID="d4663ed7-6669-4f0a-842e-b3b4380b7df5" CreationDate="2015-04-29T10:55:42.613" UserId="26" Text="It is fairly well known that Medusa, the snake-headed Gorgon, had two sisters, Stheno and Euryale. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While the story of Medusa is concluded when Perseus beheads her, in modern retellings and versions, we don't hear about her sisters. What happens to the other two Gorgons? Are they immortal? Do they seek revenge?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="460" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="155" RevisionGUID="d4663ed7-6669-4f0a-842e-b3b4380b7df5" CreationDate="2015-04-29T10:55:42.613" UserId="26" Text="What happened to Medusa's sisters?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="461" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="155" RevisionGUID="d4663ed7-6669-4f0a-842e-b3b4380b7df5" CreationDate="2015-04-29T10:55:42.613" UserId="26" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|medusa|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="462" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="156" RevisionGUID="9ce5b474-0cc2-4ddf-8b27-475bdfb2caf4" CreationDate="2015-04-29T10:59:39.280" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="463" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="157" RevisionGUID="9592e503-34fc-4800-bd42-ba9de954e0ee" CreationDate="2015-04-29T10:59:39.280" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="464" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="158" RevisionGUID="fbee9a0c-f14e-4c57-8fde-834a1054c5db" CreationDate="2015-04-29T11:01:51.507" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="465" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="159" RevisionGUID="dc4cacc9-8b0b-41b7-b809-2ef73791456d" CreationDate="2015-04-29T11:01:51.507" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="466" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="160" RevisionGUID="9ad4af82-7f3b-49cc-9c0d-81556ebbf8b2" CreationDate="2015-04-29T11:23:11.033" UserId="57" Text="In pseudo-Apollodorus' version, Medusa's sisters sought revenge on Perseus, who escaped them by using the [Cap of Hades][1] (which rendered its wearer invisible): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So Perseus put the head of Medusa in the wallet (kibisis) and went back again; but the Gorgons started up from their slumber and pursued Perseus: but they could not see him on account of the cap, for he was hidden by it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Apollod. 2.4.3](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D2%3Achapter%3D4%3Asection%3D3)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From what I know of the myth, Medusa was the only mortal Gorgon. I'm afraid I don't have a good source for this, so take it with a grain of salt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cap_of_invisibility" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="468" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="160" RevisionGUID="06571005-6210-4b7c-92d4-2520247ee404" CreationDate="2015-04-29T11:29:50.963" UserId="57" Comment="[Edit removed during grace period]" Text="In pseudo-Apollodorus' version, Medusa's sisters sought revenge on Perseus, who escaped them by using the [Cap of Hades][1] (which rendered its wearer invisible): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So Perseus put the head of Medusa in the wallet (kibisis) and went back again; but the Gorgons started up from their slumber and pursued Perseus: but they could not see him on account of the cap, for he was hidden by it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Apollod. 2.4.3](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D2%3Achapter%3D4%3Asection%3D3)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From what I know of the myth, Medusa was the only mortal Gorgon. I'm afraid I don't have a good source for this, so take it with a grain of salt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cap_of_invisibility" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="470" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="161" RevisionGUID="300e8b61-2491-4bff-a99d-46745058baca" CreationDate="2015-04-29T12:12:56.430" UserId="51" Text="Do we know how and in which circumstances Gilgamesh died?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [these answers][1] seems that The Epic of Gilgamesh doesn't mention that, however [Wikipedia page][2] mention something about Sumerian poem - The Death of Gilgamesh.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120209235546AANK73n&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="471" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="161" RevisionGUID="300e8b61-2491-4bff-a99d-46745058baca" CreationDate="2015-04-29T12:12:56.430" UserId="51" Text="How Gilgamesh died?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="472" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="161" RevisionGUID="300e8b61-2491-4bff-a99d-46745058baca" CreationDate="2015-04-29T12:12:56.430" UserId="51" Text="|gilgamesh|sumerian|mesopotamia|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="474" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="146" RevisionGUID="91d052df-f26b-4dbd-8a15-7f8c8119e30d" CreationDate="2015-04-29T12:16:54.850" UserId="117" Comment="edited title" Text="Why were there exactly 12 Olympian Gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="475" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="87" RevisionGUID="c683ce84-38b0-4fb7-b149-c1948e2c62ed" CreationDate="2015-04-29T12:17:03.913" UserId="36" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="##The [River Styx][1] is one of the five rivers of the  Greek Underworld, that separate Hades from the land of the living.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;During the [Titanomachy][2] (the Titan war), which was fought between the [Titans][3] and the [Olympians][4], the goddess Styx sided with the Olympians. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Once the war was won, [Zeus][5], king of the Olympians, promised that every oath be sworn on Styx's name, as a sign of the greatest respect. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He also proceeded to name the River Styx after her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Achilles][6] was dipped in it as a child and was rewarded with invulnerability, except for his heel, which was where his mother was holding him, hence the term :  Achilles' heel.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The full list of rivers surrounding Hades :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Acheron][7] - the river of woe&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. [Cocytus][8] - the river of lamentation&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. [Phlegethon][9] - the river of fire&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. [Lethe][10] - the river of forgetfulness&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;5. [Styx][11] - the river of hate&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Dor%C3%A9_-_Styx.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanomachy&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Olympians&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://api.ning.com/files/RxYDN27Lud8gaH*HXdHQh26D6YPz4WtXpJRuqmrHryg*U4eTgN1r-I6-zC2k*ZyIHViCvdPCeGVLFh3d5bAfwuWAyyp2aAfV/zeus2.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acheron&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocytus&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phlegethon&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethe&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styx" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="476" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="161" RevisionGUID="8d944edd-7276-4b16-ae32-1cdc64adbfbe" CreationDate="2015-04-29T12:17:41.143" UserId="119" Comment="Small grammar fix in the title" Text="How did Gilgamesh die?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="477" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="161" RevisionGUID="8d944edd-7276-4b16-ae32-1cdc64adbfbe" CreationDate="2015-04-29T12:17:41.143" Comment="Proposed by 119 approved by 51 edit id of 30" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="478" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="144" RevisionGUID="ba7e423e-ea3a-4208-b193-94acd4e0b5ed" CreationDate="2015-04-29T12:22:06.113" UserId="108" Comment="added 18 characters in body" Text="**The [`haotian shang-ti (昊天上帝)`](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shangdi) is the supreme deity of *traditional* Chinese religions.** He is attested to in the earliest Chinese writings as `ti` or [`tian`](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tian), and thus dates to the earliest period in Chinese civilisation. This is also the belief maintained in [Confucianism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucianism). His name is usually abbreviated to just `shang-ti`.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In contrast, the [Jade Emperor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jade_Emperor) is the ruler of heaven in the [***Taoist* tradition**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism). While the Judaeo-Christian narrative identifies this position as supreme, the same is not true in Taoism. Instead, the Jade Emperor is subordinate to the [Three Purities](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Pure_Ones) and thus, by definition, **not supreme**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a side note, the Jade Emperor emerged in the [late Han Dynasty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_dynasty#Eastern_Han). For some period during the same dynasty, the [Pole Star](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris) was worshipped (by imperial decree) as the supreme deity [`tai-yi (太乙)`](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiyi), eclipsing `shang-ti`. Confucianism ultimately rejected this interpretation however, and Taiyi was subsequently demoted." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="479" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="162" RevisionGUID="0198193a-694b-415a-9828-bad989fd37a8" CreationDate="2015-04-29T12:25:11.860" UserId="36" Text="According to [The Electronic Text Corpus of Sumerian Literature][1], my best guess from reading the [translated text provided][2] is he died of old age :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;..... hero ...... has lain down and is never to rise again. ...... has lain down and is never to rise again. He of well-proportioned limbs ...... has lain down and is never to rise again. ...... has lain down and is never to rise again. He who ...... wickedness has lain down and is never to rise again. The young man ...... has lain down and is never to rise again. He who was perfect in ...... and feats of strength has lain down and is never to rise again. ......&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It doesn't give an specific explanation for his death, but the text is fragmentary at best and several parts are missing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/index1.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr1813.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="481" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="163" RevisionGUID="722a9a95-3dc5-4a05-8275-238b54ad5a14" CreationDate="2015-04-29T12:27:48.930" UserId="111" Text="How did Dionysos/Bacchus become the central figure of Orphism, given the relatively modest importance he has in classical Greek and Roman mythology?  &#xD;&#xA;From a semi-god of Wine in the latter, he becomes in the former the central character of a metempsychosis-centered, mystical cult prescribing an &quot;ascetic&quot;(!) way of life.  &#xD;&#xA;In Ovid's Metamophosis he is even depicted as quite a powerful and vengeful god.  &#xD;&#xA;There seems to be quite a mismatch between both visions of the supposedly same character." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="482" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="163" RevisionGUID="722a9a95-3dc5-4a05-8275-238b54ad5a14" CreationDate="2015-04-29T12:27:48.930" UserId="111" Text="Importance of Dionysos/Bacchus in Orphism" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="483" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="163" RevisionGUID="722a9a95-3dc5-4a05-8275-238b54ad5a14" CreationDate="2015-04-29T12:27:48.930" UserId="111" Text="|greek|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="484" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="164" RevisionGUID="265d8d9f-3cac-47f2-96a8-a6f132e40d7a" CreationDate="2015-04-29T12:29:06.000" UserId="129" Text="Direct quote from the wikipedia article of [Mjölnir][1]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hammer of [Thor][2], a major Norse god associated with thunder. [Mjölnir][1] is depicted in Norse mythology as one of the most fearsome weapons, capable of leveling mountains. In his account of Norse mythology, Snorri Sturluson relates how the hammer was made by the dwarven brothers [Sindri][3] and [Brokkr][4], and how its characteristically short handle was due to a mishap during its manufacture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]:http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mj%C3%B6lnir&#xD;&#xA;[2]:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor&#xD;&#xA;[3]:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eitri&#xD;&#xA;[4]:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brokkr" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="485" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="144" RevisionGUID="95401305-0f82-4e86-8fbb-b79300cc5865" CreationDate="2015-04-29T12:37:06.443" UserId="108" Comment="edited body" Text="**The [`haotian shang-ti (昊天上帝)`](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shangdi) is the supreme deity of *traditional* Chinese religions.** He is attested to in the earliest Chinese writings as `ti` or [`tian`](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tian), and thus dates to the earliest period in Chinese civilisation. This is also the belief maintained in [Confucianism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucianism). His name is usually abbreviated to just `shang-ti`.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In contrast, **the [Jade Emperor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jade_Emperor) is the ruler of heaven in the [*Taoist* tradition](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism)**. While the Judaeo-Christian narrative identifies this position as supreme, the same is not true in Taoism. Instead, the Jade Emperor is subordinate to the [Three Purities](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Pure_Ones) and thus, by definition, **not supreme**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a side note, the Jade Emperor emerged in the [late Han Dynasty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_dynasty#Eastern_Han). For some period during the same dynasty, the [Pole Star](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris) was worshipped (by imperial decree) as the supreme deity [`tai-yi (太乙)`](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiyi), eclipsing `shang-ti`. Confucianism ultimately rejected this interpretation however, and Taiyi was subsequently demoted." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="486" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="131" RevisionGUID="2ad5e337-019d-4452-9718-a51d3bbed84a" CreationDate="2015-04-29T12:38:22.840" UserId="108" Comment="added 40 characters in body; edited title" Text="In Norse mythology, [Líf and Lífþrasir](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%ADf_and_L%C3%ADf%C3%BErasir) are supposed to survive [Ragnarök](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar%C3%B6k) and repopulate the world by hiding in [Hoddmímis holt](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoddm%C3%ADmis_holt). How is it that Hoddmímis holt is able to survive the destruction of the world and even shelter Lif and Lífþrasir? And is there a reason why there wouldn't be more humans hiding in it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="487" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="131" RevisionGUID="2ad5e337-019d-4452-9718-a51d3bbed84a" CreationDate="2015-04-29T12:38:22.840" UserId="108" Comment="added 40 characters in body; edited title" Text="How is the Hoddmímis holt able to protect humans from Ragnarök?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="488" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="163" RevisionGUID="e9a45570-171e-4abd-bfd7-f4e896021eb5" CreationDate="2015-04-29T12:47:58.743" UserId="111" Comment="added 135 characters in body" Text="How did Dionysos/Bacchus become the central figure of Orphism, given the relatively modest importance he has in classical Greek and Roman mythology?  &#xD;&#xA;From a semi-god of Wine in the latter, he becomes in the former the central character of a metempsychosis-centered, mystical cult prescribing an &quot;ascetic&quot;(!) way of life.  &#xD;&#xA;In Ovid's Metamophosis he is even depicted as quite a powerful and vengeful god.  &#xD;&#xA;There seems to be quite a mismatch between both visions of the supposedly same character: is it possible the orphic cult was in fact worshipping another imported character, foreign to the greek/roman pantheon, that was later assimilated to Dionysos?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="489" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="162" RevisionGUID="dd6a2ddd-c1b8-4bf3-80ef-31fb223eb3a2" CreationDate="2015-04-29T13:02:05.557" UserId="36" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="According to **[The Electronic Text Corpus of Sumerian Literature][1]**, my best guess from reading the [translated text provided][2] is he died of old age :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;..... hero ...... has lain down and is never to rise again. ...... has lain down and is never to rise again. He of well-proportioned limbs ...... has lain down and is never to rise again. ...... has lain down and is never to rise again. He who ...... wickedness has lain down and is never to rise again. The young man ...... has lain down and is never to rise again. He who was perfect in ...... and feats of strength has lain down and is never to rise again. ......&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It doesn't give an specific explanation for his death, but the text is fragmentary at best and several parts are missing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/index1.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr1813.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="490" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="165" RevisionGUID="165c340e-9cf2-4d66-bd86-e25cad9848c2" CreationDate="2015-04-29T13:22:48.280" UserId="108" Text="In Irish mythology, Ireland was once inhabited by the [*Fir Bolg*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fir_Bolg), who were descended from the earlier [Nemedians](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemed). They were later defeated by a later group of Nemed's descendants known as the [*Tuatha Dé Danann*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuatha_D%C3%A9_Danann). However, the victors gave the *Fir Bolg* a quarter of Ireland to live in. According to Wikipedia,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [T]he Tuath Dé offer them one quarter of Ireland as their own; they choose Connacht and are mentioned very little after this in the myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So clearly the *Fir Bolg* sunk into oblivion. However, the above quote implies that they were still mentioned at least occasionally - &quot;very little&quot; is more than not at all. What is known to have happened to them?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="491" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="165" RevisionGUID="165c340e-9cf2-4d66-bd86-e25cad9848c2" CreationDate="2015-04-29T13:22:48.280" UserId="108" Text="What happened to the Fir Bolg after Ireland was conquered by the Tuatha Dé Danann?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="492" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="165" RevisionGUID="165c340e-9cf2-4d66-bd86-e25cad9848c2" CreationDate="2015-04-29T13:22:48.280" UserId="108" Text="|irish|mythohistory|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="493" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="166" RevisionGUID="18b7f261-121b-4e84-8881-c58c30680e67" CreationDate="2015-04-29T13:27:31.663" UserId="79" Text="In Norse mythology, the Kraken is said to be a gigantic octopuss (or sometimes a squid) that attack sailing ships. It is said that the Kraken would surface at Ragnarök.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So far, I haven't found any articles stating that the Kraken is a single entity. Nor have I found anything which denies it. Is the Kraken a single being or is it a species?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="494" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="166" RevisionGUID="18b7f261-121b-4e84-8881-c58c30680e67" CreationDate="2015-04-29T13:27:31.663" UserId="79" Text="Is the Kraken a single being or a species?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="495" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="166" RevisionGUID="18b7f261-121b-4e84-8881-c58c30680e67" CreationDate="2015-04-29T13:27:31.663" UserId="79" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="496" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="167" RevisionGUID="732527a8-72d7-4d6a-b1e6-e07737283dad" CreationDate="2015-04-29T13:28:15.807" UserId="51" Text="Wikipedia page suggest that in the epic, [Gilgamesh][1] is a demigod of superhuman.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How do we know he was a demigod? What makes someone a demigod?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did he posses some special powers which makes him a superhuman?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgamesh" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="497" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="167" RevisionGUID="732527a8-72d7-4d6a-b1e6-e07737283dad" CreationDate="2015-04-29T13:28:15.807" UserId="51" Text="How do we know that Gilgamesh was a demigod?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="498" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="167" RevisionGUID="732527a8-72d7-4d6a-b1e6-e07737283dad" CreationDate="2015-04-29T13:28:15.807" UserId="51" Text="|gilgamesh|demi-gods|superhuman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="499" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="167" RevisionGUID="dc99d8f4-ed27-4211-b147-695e7c8b5165" CreationDate="2015-04-29T13:35:30.403" UserId="79" Comment="added missing word" Text="Wikipedia page suggest that in the epic, [Gilgamesh][1] is a demigod of superhuman strength.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How do we know he was a demigod? What makes someone a demigod?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did he posses some special powers which makes him a superhuman?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgamesh" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="500" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="167" RevisionGUID="dc99d8f4-ed27-4211-b147-695e7c8b5165" CreationDate="2015-04-29T13:35:30.403" Comment="Proposed by 79 approved by 51 edit id of 31" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="501" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="168" RevisionGUID="5ec935e5-e8d1-4eb4-a17d-09bdadf2dd15" CreationDate="2015-04-29T13:45:35.840" UserId="111" Text="Korrigans are part of the modern Breton folklore, as water spirits. Some sources give them an origin in ancient Gaul (Thomas Keightley's 1892 [&quot;The Fairy Mythology&quot;](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/41006/41006-h/41006-h.htm) for instance). Is there any evidence for this?  &#xD;&#xA;From some of the stories surrounding those creatures, many seems related to the rise of Christianity (see the ones related on the [wikipedia page](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korrigan) for instance), hence the more natural idea that the Korrigans legends actually originated later." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="502" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="168" RevisionGUID="5ec935e5-e8d1-4eb4-a17d-09bdadf2dd15" CreationDate="2015-04-29T13:45:35.840" UserId="111" Text="When did Korrigans become part of the Breton folklore?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="503" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="168" RevisionGUID="5ec935e5-e8d1-4eb4-a17d-09bdadf2dd15" CreationDate="2015-04-29T13:45:35.840" UserId="111" Text="|celtic|brittany|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="504" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="169" RevisionGUID="6bc2eb2e-810b-4acc-80cb-f6414cd0d96c" CreationDate="2015-04-29T13:53:18.003" UserId="79" Text="The definition for demigod differs from culture to culture. But the definition of demigod, which can be used here in the case of Gilgamesh would be &quot;half-god&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gilgamesh was a Sumerian king who wished to become immortal. Endowed with superhuman strength, courage, and power, he appeared in numerous legends and myths, including the Epic of Gilgamesh.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From [Myth Encyclopedia article](https://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Fi-Go/Gilgamesh.html) on Gilgamesh (emphasis mine): &#xD;&#xA;&gt;According to legendary accounts, Gilgamesh was the **son of the goddess Ninsun** and of either Lugalbanda, a king of Uruk, or of a high priest of the district of Kullab.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The fact  that his mother was a goddess and his father, a mortal, suggests than Gilgamesh was a demigod. And his superhuman abilities could have been due the fact that one of his parents was a god. In the Epic, his strength and feats were described as superhuman." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="508" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="159" RevisionGUID="4005d5f4-65ec-454e-9415-7fe51e3e896c" CreationDate="2015-04-29T14:01:58.500" UserId="26" Comment="added 56 characters in body" Text="For questions about ancient Roman mythology and legends." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="509" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="159" RevisionGUID="4005d5f4-65ec-454e-9415-7fe51e3e896c" CreationDate="2015-04-29T14:01:58.500" Comment="Proposed by 26 approved by 55 edit id of 29" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="510" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="154" RevisionGUID="06936b32-b5e3-417e-b668-f4038f38d5d7" CreationDate="2015-04-29T14:02:13.347" UserId="79" Comment="added essential tag" Text="|norse|gods|god-items|thor|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="511" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="154" RevisionGUID="06936b32-b5e3-417e-b668-f4038f38d5d7" CreationDate="2015-04-29T14:02:13.347" Comment="Proposed by 79 approved by 55 edit id of 27" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="512" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="157" RevisionGUID="dcf6c749-b965-488b-b550-a9eab7c007fe" CreationDate="2015-04-29T14:02:24.480" UserId="26" Comment="added 87 characters in body" Text="A mythical creature is an animal or non-human being described in folklore and legends. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="513" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="157" RevisionGUID="dcf6c749-b965-488b-b550-a9eab7c007fe" CreationDate="2015-04-29T14:02:24.480" Comment="Proposed by 26 approved by 55 edit id of 28" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="514" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="86" RevisionGUID="d8fba809-3e63-4afc-b509-4411fd368ab3" CreationDate="2015-04-29T14:02:27.840" UserId="33" Comment="add source based on comments" Text="Why is Heracles named after Hera if she hated him so much? He was Zeus's favored son but not Hera's. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is from [Eric Flaum's _The Encyclopedia of Mythology_][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.amazon.com/Encyclopedia-Mythology-Heroes-Legends-Greeks/dp/1561382310/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="515" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="86" RevisionGUID="d8fba809-3e63-4afc-b509-4411fd368ab3" CreationDate="2015-04-29T14:02:27.840" Comment="Proposed by 33 approved by 55 edit id of 18" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="516" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="52" RevisionGUID="7e9ae23a-f862-4b7c-b1fd-8adf16dd83f3" CreationDate="2015-04-29T14:02:31.790" UserId="58" Comment="added 72 characters in body" Text="For questions about how ancient mythology influences today's traditions." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="517" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="52" RevisionGUID="7e9ae23a-f862-4b7c-b1fd-8adf16dd83f3" CreationDate="2015-04-29T14:02:31.790" Comment="Proposed by 58 approved by 55 edit id of 9" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="518" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="135" RevisionGUID="a3c35e6b-1a41-4c6f-9f31-a0a3b805b5ec" CreationDate="2015-04-29T14:02:33.983" UserId="33" Comment="spelling; name in title" Text="According to Christian mythology, Adam and Eve were the first people created. So their children were living alone in the world. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Genesis 4:16-17 it says that Cain left Eden and went towards the east to live. There he met his wife and got married and had a child. Where did that woman come from? Weren't Adam and Eve the first people created? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="519" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="135" RevisionGUID="a3c35e6b-1a41-4c6f-9f31-a0a3b805b5ec" CreationDate="2015-04-29T14:02:33.983" UserId="33" Comment="spelling; name in title" Text="Who did Adam and Eve's son Cain marry?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="520" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="135" RevisionGUID="a3c35e6b-1a41-4c6f-9f31-a0a3b805b5ec" CreationDate="2015-04-29T14:02:33.983" Comment="Proposed by 33 approved by 55 edit id of 23" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="522" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="144" RevisionGUID="4a669723-e976-41dd-831b-f428c838577e" CreationDate="2015-04-29T14:04:35.047" UserId="108" Comment="added 39 characters in body" Text="**The [`haotian shang-ti (昊天上帝)`](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shangdi) is the supreme deity of *traditional* Chinese religions.** He is attested to in the earliest Chinese writings as `ti` or [`tian`](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tian), and thus dates to the earliest period in Chinese civilisation. This is also the belief maintained in [Confucianism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucianism). His name is usually abbreviated to just `shang-ti`.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In contrast, **the [Jade Emperor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jade_Emperor) is the ruler of heaven in the [*Taoist* tradition](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism)**. He emerged much later in the [late Han Dynasty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_dynasty#Eastern_Han), as a Taoist interpretation of the traditional `shang-ti`. While the Judaeo-Christian narrative identifies this position as supreme, this is not precisely true in Taoism. Instead, the Jade Emperor is second to the [Three Purities](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Pure_Ones) and thus, by definition, **not supreme**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For some period during the same dynasty, the [Pole Star](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris) was worshiped (by imperial decree) as the supreme deity [`tai-yi (太乙)`](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiyi), eclipsing `shang-ti`. Confucianism ultimately rejected this interpretation however, and Taiyi was subsequently demoted." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="523" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="170" RevisionGUID="3c0e603b-5d2c-4b52-8c83-6234ca12b98b" CreationDate="2015-04-29T14:09:47.533" UserId="42" Text="To address the claim that Cain moved away and then found his wife, this simply isn't stated in the text.  Perhaps the confusion is on the phrasing.  Genesis 4:16-17 doesn't say that Cain *met* his wife in the land of Nod.  Here is the King James Version of those verses:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.  And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The phrase &quot;knew his wife&quot; is a construction used repeatedly in the King James translation.  &quot;knew&quot; here doesn't mean &quot;met&quot;, it means &quot;had sex with&quot;.  Later translations are usually a bit less evasive on this point, using phrases like &quot;made love to&quot;, instead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is nothing that precludes Cain having already been married to one of his sisters at the time that he left for Nod, and that he brought her with him." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="524" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="144" RevisionGUID="3ac1f0d1-4d9a-4e34-84a2-fae2305a35ba" CreationDate="2015-04-29T14:15:23.887" UserId="108" Comment="added 423 characters in body" Text="**The [`haotian shang-ti (昊天上帝)`](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shangdi) is the supreme deity of *traditional* Chinese religions.** He is attested to in the earliest Chinese writings as `ti` or [`tian`](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tian), and thus dates to the earliest period in Chinese civilisation. This is also the belief maintained in [Confucianism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucianism). His name is usually abbreviated to just `shang-ti`.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In contrast, **the [Jade Emperor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jade_Emperor) is the ruler of heaven in the [*Taoist* tradition](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism)**. He emerged much later in the [late Han Dynasty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_dynasty#Eastern_Han), as a Taoist interpretation of the traditional `shang-ti`. While the Judaeo-Christian narrative identifies this position as supreme, this is not precisely true in Taoism. Instead, the Jade Emperor is second to the [Three Purities](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Pure_Ones) and thus, by definition, **not supreme**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The jurisdiction of the Jade Emperor closely resembles that of the temporal bureaucracy. Superimposed on him are the Three Pure Ones, represented by the triumvirate of the Celestial-honourd Primordial, the Supreme Old sovereign (Laotzu) and a third god, which are simple plagiarisms of the Buddhist trikaya.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Crotty, Robert B., ed. *The Charles Strong Lectures: 1972-1984.* Brill Archive, 1987.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For some period during the same dynasty, the [Pole Star](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris) was worshiped (by imperial decree) as the supreme deity [`tai-yi (太乙)`](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiyi), eclipsing `shang-ti`. Confucianism ultimately rejected this interpretation however, and Taiyi was subsequently demoted in official dedications.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="525" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="144" RevisionGUID="a22654f0-f4f2-46f0-b59e-0501d8a89e68" CreationDate="2015-04-29T14:28:54.463" UserId="108" Comment="added 423 characters in body" Text="Unlike the Zeus or Norse pantheons, Chinese supreme deities are not very well defined. Generally speaking the chief deity of Chinese traditional beliefs is a personification of the sky; this character however evolved through the centuries as Chinese religions developed distinct identifies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Strictly speaking **the [`haotian shang-ti (昊天上帝)`](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shangdi) is the supreme deity of *traditional* Chinese religions.** He is attested to in the earliest Chinese writings as `ti` or [`tian`](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tian), and thus dates to the earliest period in Chinese civilisation. This is also the belief maintained in [Confucianism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucianism). His name is usually abbreviated to just `shang-ti`.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In contrast, **the [Jade Emperor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jade_Emperor) is the ruler of heaven in the [*Taoist* tradition](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism)**. He emerged much later in the [late Han Dynasty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_dynasty#Eastern_Han), as a Taoist interpretation of the traditional `shang-ti` and personification of [Polaris](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris). However, while the Judaeo-Christian narrative identifies his position as supreme, this is not precisely true in Taoism. Instead, in Taoist hierarchy the Jade Emperor is in fact second to the [Three Purities](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Pure_Ones). By definition, therefore, he is **not supreme**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The jurisdiction of the Jade Emperor closely resembles that of the temporal bureaucracy. Superimposed on him are the Three Pure Ones, represented by the triumvirate of the Celestial-honourd Primordial, the Supreme Old sovereign (Laotzu) and a third god, which are simple plagiarisms of the Buddhist trikaya.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Crotty, Robert B., ed. *The Charles Strong Lectures: 1972-1984.* Brill Archive, 1987.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For some period during the same dynasty, the Pole Star was worshiped (by imperial decree) as the supreme deity [`tai-yi (太乙)`](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiyi), eclipsing `shang-ti`. Confucianism ultimately rejected this interpretation however, and Taiyi was subsequently demoted in official dedications.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="528" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="171" RevisionGUID="5df50754-0bdc-4039-b800-6c67ab284e7a" CreationDate="2015-04-29T14:38:49.600" UserId="111" Text="Epona is said to be &quot;the sole Celtic divinity ultimately worshipped in Rome itself&quot; (see [Wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epona) quoting [Phyllis Fray Bober](http://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/501975.pdf?acceptTC=true&amp;jpdConfirm=true)).  &#xD;&#xA;Is there any reason this divinity *in particular* was worshipped in the Roman Empire and none of the numerous other Celtic gods despite the apparent habit of Romans to borrow divinities from everyone they conquered?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="529" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="171" RevisionGUID="5df50754-0bdc-4039-b800-6c67ab284e7a" CreationDate="2015-04-29T14:38:49.600" UserId="111" Text="Worship of Epona in the Roman Empire" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="530" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="171" RevisionGUID="5df50754-0bdc-4039-b800-6c67ab284e7a" CreationDate="2015-04-29T14:38:49.600" UserId="111" Text="|roman|celtic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="531" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="143" RevisionGUID="36563eae-c9ea-4f2b-8740-1c6013370eeb" CreationDate="2015-04-29T14:45:13.380" UserId="57" Comment="edited body" Text="Chaos is the primeval void, the starting point in Hesiod's theogony. No one created it, it just came to be: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tell how at the first gods and earth came to be, and rivers, and the boundless sea with its raging swell, and the gleaming stars, and the wide heaven above, and the gods who were born of them, givers of good things, and how they divided their wealth, and how they shared their honors amongst them, and also how at the first they took many-folded Olympus. These things declare to me from the beginning, you Muses who dwell in the house of Olympus, and tell me which of them first came to be. In truth at first Chaos came to be, but next wide-bosomed Earth, the ever-sure foundation of all the deathless ones who hold the peaks of snowy Olympus, and dim Tartarus in the depth of the wide-pathed Earth, and Eros (Love), fairest among the deathless gods, who unnerves the limbs and overcomes the mind and wise counsels of all gods and all men within them. From Chaos came forth Erebus and black Night; but of Night were born Aether and Day, whom she conceived and bore from union in love with Erebus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Hes. Th. 116](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hes.+Th.+116)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="532" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="172" RevisionGUID="49aec33c-a1c4-4108-a985-0659368bc310" CreationDate="2015-04-29T14:49:25.773" UserId="51" Text="Who were Anunnaki? Were they gods or another race from different planet?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some alternative sources suggest that Anunnaki were extraterrestrial race in Sumerian myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What's the consensus on that? How do we tell who they were?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="533" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="172" RevisionGUID="49aec33c-a1c4-4108-a985-0659368bc310" CreationDate="2015-04-29T14:49:25.773" UserId="51" Text="Who were Anunnaki according to Sumerians's tales?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="534" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="172" RevisionGUID="49aec33c-a1c4-4108-a985-0659368bc310" CreationDate="2015-04-29T14:49:25.773" UserId="51" Text="|gods|anunnaki|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="535" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="173" RevisionGUID="4ecd343c-15d7-41fc-8158-1db40453ab11" CreationDate="2015-04-29T15:05:15.100" UserId="61" Text="Dionysus was a mortal that was raised to divinity.  While he is most well known for wine and revelry, his portfolio also grew to include:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- festivals&#xD;&#xA;- fertility&#xD;&#xA;- the wilds&#xD;&#xA;- crops&#xD;&#xA;- sanity&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This are centrally important to the daily lives of average citizens for the time.  Sure Zeus is the king, and sure Poseidon is incredibly powerful, but I need my crops to grow, sons to help me run the farm and carry on my name and lets face it an opportunity to drown my sorrows once in a while.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Orphism espouses the idea of an immortal soul and in a similar fashion to Hindu reincarnation the goal of the follower is to exit a cyclical pattern of death and rebirth in human bodies to become one with the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who better to worship and lead such a 'religion' than a man who became a god himself." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="537" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="172" RevisionGUID="8710d98d-a77f-48b5-a093-068c21d6fc8d" CreationDate="2015-04-29T15:13:51.730" UserId="79" Comment="grammar fix" Text="Who were the Anunnaki? Were they gods or another race from a different planet?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some alternative sources suggest that the Anunnaki were an extraterrestrial race in Sumerian myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What's the consensus on that? How do we tell who they were?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="538" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="172" RevisionGUID="8710d98d-a77f-48b5-a093-068c21d6fc8d" CreationDate="2015-04-29T15:13:51.730" UserId="79" Comment="grammar fix" Text="Who were Anunnaki according to Sumerians' tales?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="539" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="172" RevisionGUID="8710d98d-a77f-48b5-a093-068c21d6fc8d" CreationDate="2015-04-29T15:13:51.730" Comment="Proposed by 79 approved by 51 edit id of 34" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="540" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="174" RevisionGUID="3850dfa2-4b40-41dc-b0e8-ca4811f6f31a" CreationDate="2015-04-29T15:13:52.607" UserId="11" Text="I can't seem to figure out if the [Sirens](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siren_(mythology)) were, like, half human half bird monsters (who attracted men with their magical song only)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Wikipedia Bird Image][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;or if they were also very beautiful women&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Wikipedia Siren Image][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/EZaAT.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/aLVcn.jpg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Were they humans with magical abilities / harps? Or did they have power derived from the blood of gods? Is the latter interpretation a (relatively) modern revision?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="541" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="174" RevisionGUID="3850dfa2-4b40-41dc-b0e8-ca4811f6f31a" CreationDate="2015-04-29T15:13:52.607" UserId="11" Text="Were Sirens humans or Monsters?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="542" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="174" RevisionGUID="3850dfa2-4b40-41dc-b0e8-ca4811f6f31a" CreationDate="2015-04-29T15:13:52.607" UserId="11" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="548" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="145" RevisionGUID="982591ba-501b-46ba-9244-fb35ee72a5cc" CreationDate="2015-04-29T15:22:35.767" UserId="57" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="Apollo didn't have any solar properties in Homeric times, and he and Helios were clearly distinct entities. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the 5th century BCE and onwards Helios started to be identified with Apollo, and Apollo acquired the epithet &quot;Phoebus&quot; (shining). An early reference to the fusion of the two beings can be found in fragment 781 of Euripidis' Faethon, where the poet tells us that Helios is &quot;rightly called Apollo&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ὦ καλλιφεγγὲς Ἥλι᾿, ὥς μ᾿ ἀπώλεσας καὶ τόνδ᾿ Ἀπόλλων δ᾿ ἐν βροτοῖς ὀρθῶς καλῇ, ὅστις τὰ σιγῶντ᾿ ἀνόματ᾿ οἶδε δαιμόνων. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The association became a lot more commonplace during Hellenistic times. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="549" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="29" RevisionGUID="041c8402-f57c-4633-a47a-24c3d5a4ff7e" CreationDate="2015-04-29T15:31:02.340" UserId="61" Comment="Clarification and specification." Text="Hereacles and Perseus were two well known sons of Zeus.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How many other **male** offspring did Zeus father by **human women**?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Included names should be sourced back only to Zeus, no *&quot;of uncertain parentage&quot;* folks included please." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="550" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="29" RevisionGUID="041c8402-f57c-4633-a47a-24c3d5a4ff7e" CreationDate="2015-04-29T15:31:02.340" UserId="61" Comment="Clarification and specification." Text="|greek|demi-gods|family-tree|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="551" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="29" RevisionGUID="041c8402-f57c-4633-a47a-24c3d5a4ff7e" CreationDate="2015-04-29T15:31:02.340" Comment="Proposed by 61 approved by 28 edit id of 35" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="552" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="176" RevisionGUID="88b5d25c-5703-4884-8967-221359771941" CreationDate="2015-04-29T15:39:14.670" UserId="33" Text="In general, English &quot;demigod&quot; refers to a person who is partially divine and partially human. Most typically, this refers to someone who has one divine and one human parent (like Hercules, or the Pandavas). But the case of Gilgamesh is slightly different. Rather than being half-divine, Gilgamesh is in fact _two-thirds_ divine. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When the gods created Gilgamesh they gave him a perfect body. Shamash the glorious sun endowed him with beauty, Adad the god of the storm endowed him with courage, the great gods made his beauty perfect, surpassing all others, terrifying like a great wild bull. **Two thirds they made him god and one third man.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[_Epic of Gilgamesh_, Prologue][1]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a mathematical perspective, you can only be two-thirds something if 1.) you have a very finely-crafted family tree extending infinitely far back [i.e. successive binary approximations of 2/3]; or 2.) you have loops in your family tree [which requires time travel, probably]. (This is because 2/3 is not a binary fraction).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So how is it that Gilgamesh was two-thirds divine if born from a divine mother (Ninsun) and a mortal father (Lugalbanda)? I don't know, but there you have it. I can't imagine mathematical accuracy would have been a priority of the Sumerians when they crafted the _Epic_.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.aina.org/books/eog/eog.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="553" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="177" RevisionGUID="58d3b99a-0a1e-4511-8eaf-0c49ff410da8" CreationDate="2015-04-29T15:42:06.720" UserId="88" Text="I don't think that the number 12 symbolized everything as other numbers occur in various stories. Odysseus sailed for 9 days with the gift of favorable winds from Aeolus god of wind and on the 10th day the bag was opened as he saw Ithaka for on the horizon. Dimitra searched for her daughter for 9 days before on the tenth day she discovered she had been taken to the underworld, &quot;Demeter wandered about in search of her daughter for nine days, without taking any nectar or ambrosia, and without bathing.&quot; [link][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But 12 does seem to be associated with a harmonious state. Different cultures have different views on the same numbers. Some cultures see number '6' as a positive sign [link][2]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Demeter.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbers_in_Chinese_culture#Six" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="555" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="144" RevisionGUID="e48a9bd1-0436-4ac1-831e-b4ee039959fd" CreationDate="2015-04-29T15:45:51.440" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 12 characters in body" Text="Unlike the Zeus or Norse pantheons, Chinese supreme deities are not very well defined. Generally speaking the chief deity of Chinese traditional beliefs is a personification of the sky; this character however evolved through the centuries as Chinese religious beliefs developed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Strictly speaking **the [`haotian shang-ti (昊天上帝)`](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shangdi) is the supreme deity of *traditional* Chinese religions.** He is attested to in the earliest Chinese writings as `ti` or [`tian`](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tian), and thus dates to the earliest period in Chinese civilisation. This is also the belief maintained in [Confucianism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucianism). His name is usually abbreviated to just `shang-ti`.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In contrast, **the [Jade Emperor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jade_Emperor) is the ruler of heaven in the [*Taoist* tradition](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism)**. He emerged much later in the [late Han Dynasty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_dynasty#Eastern_Han), as a Taoist interpretation of the traditional `shang-ti` and personification of [Polaris](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris). However, while the Judaeo-Christian narrative identifies his position as supreme, this is not precisely true in Taoism. Instead, in Taoist hierarchy the Jade Emperor is in fact second to the [Three Purities](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Pure_Ones). By definition, therefore, he is **not supreme**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The jurisdiction of the Jade Emperor closely resembles that of the temporal bureaucracy. Superimposed on him are the Three Pure Ones, represented by the triumvirate of the Celestial-honourd Primordial, the Supreme Old sovereign (Laotzu) and a third god, which are simple plagiarisms of the Buddhist trikaya.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Crotty, Robert B., ed. *The Charles Strong Lectures: 1972-1984.* Brill Archive, 1987.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For some period during the same dynasty, the Pole Star was worshiped (by imperial decree) as the supreme deity [`tai-yi (太乙)`](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiyi), eclipsing `shang-ti`. Confucianism ultimately rejected this interpretation however, and Taiyi was subsequently demoted in official dedications.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="556" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="172" RevisionGUID="316536f2-a766-4789-9a1d-0f195aef4f25" CreationDate="2015-04-29T15:46:11.467" UserId="33" Comment="retag with myth system" Text="Who were the Anunnaki? Were they gods or another race from a different planet?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some alternative sources suggest that the Anunnaki were an extraterrestrial race in Sumerian myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What's the consensus on that? How do we tell who they were?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="557" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="172" RevisionGUID="316536f2-a766-4789-9a1d-0f195aef4f25" CreationDate="2015-04-29T15:46:11.467" UserId="33" Comment="retag with myth system" Text="Who were the Anunnaki according to Sumerians' tales?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="558" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="172" RevisionGUID="316536f2-a766-4789-9a1d-0f195aef4f25" CreationDate="2015-04-29T15:46:11.467" UserId="33" Comment="retag with myth system" Text="|sumerian|mesopotamia|anunnaki|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="559" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="172" RevisionGUID="316536f2-a766-4789-9a1d-0f195aef4f25" CreationDate="2015-04-29T15:46:11.467" Comment="Proposed by 33 approved by 51 edit id of 36" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="560" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="176" RevisionGUID="7749ee65-f935-4147-b9a0-24909ddaa353" CreationDate="2015-04-29T15:46:59.197" UserId="33" Comment="added 24 characters in body" Text="In general, English &quot;demigod&quot; refers to a person who is partially divine and partially human. Most typically, this refers to someone who has one divine and one human parent (like Hercules, or the Pandavas), making them 50% divine. But the case of Gilgamesh is slightly different. Rather than being half-divine, Gilgamesh is in fact _two-thirds_ divine. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When the gods created Gilgamesh they gave him a perfect body. Shamash the glorious sun endowed him with beauty, Adad the god of the storm endowed him with courage, the great gods made his beauty perfect, surpassing all others, terrifying like a great wild bull. **Two thirds they made him god and one third man.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[_Epic of Gilgamesh_, Prologue][1]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a mathematical perspective, you can only be two-thirds something if 1.) you have a very finely-crafted family tree extending infinitely far back [i.e. successive binary approximations of 2/3]; or 2.) you have loops in your family tree [which requires time travel, probably]. (This is because 2/3 is not a binary fraction).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So how is it that Gilgamesh was two-thirds divine if born from a divine mother (Ninsun) and a mortal father (Lugalbanda)? I don't know, but there you have it. I can't imagine mathematical accuracy would have been a priority of the Sumerians when they crafted the _Epic_.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.aina.org/books/eog/eog.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="561" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="178" RevisionGUID="7a0e4b41-a51d-4aef-b675-9241f6046b00" CreationDate="2015-04-29T16:04:54.673" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="In some versions of the 12 labors of Heracles, Eurystheus is a lover of Heracles and he undertook the 12 labors for Eurystheus' love. Did Heracles have any other male lovers?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="562" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="178" RevisionGUID="7a0e4b41-a51d-4aef-b675-9241f6046b00" CreationDate="2015-04-29T16:04:54.673" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="Was Eurystheus a lover of Heracles? Did Heracles have any other male lovers?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="563" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="178" RevisionGUID="7a0e4b41-a51d-4aef-b675-9241f6046b00" CreationDate="2015-04-29T16:04:54.673" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="564" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="173" RevisionGUID="1317ebaa-300a-472b-9aee-4a9efc27ce8f" CreationDate="2015-04-29T16:06:50.357" UserId="61" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="Dionysus was a mortal that was raised to divinity.  While he is most well known for wine and revelry, his portfolio also grew to include:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- festivals&#xD;&#xA;- fertility&#xD;&#xA;- the wilds&#xD;&#xA;- crops&#xD;&#xA;- sanity&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These are centrally important to the daily lives of average citizens for the time.  Sure Zeus is the king, and sure Poseidon is incredibly powerful, but I need my crops to grow, sons to help me run the farm and carry on my name and lets face it an opportunity to drown my sorrows once in a while.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Orphism espouses the idea of an immortal soul and in a similar fashion to Hindu reincarnation the goal of the follower is to exit a cyclical pattern of death and rebirth in human bodies to become one with the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who better to worship and lead such a 'religion' than a man who became a god himself." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="565" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="179" RevisionGUID="0d0e2cdb-b422-41bd-ae84-0435bf6651d3" CreationDate="2015-04-29T16:11:24.473" UserId="110" Text="In Genesis chapter 4 it says&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 14 &quot;Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever&#xD;&#xA;&gt; finds me will kill me.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who are those that when they find him will kill him? Were there other people on earth?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--Reminder: Cain was Adam and Eve's son and this was proverb was after he killed his older brother (so he was left alone with his parents)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="566" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="179" RevisionGUID="0d0e2cdb-b422-41bd-ae84-0435bf6651d3" CreationDate="2015-04-29T16:11:24.473" UserId="110" Text="Who are those that Cain refers to in Chapter 4:14" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="567" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="179" RevisionGUID="0d0e2cdb-b422-41bd-ae84-0435bf6651d3" CreationDate="2015-04-29T16:11:24.473" UserId="110" Text="|christianity|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="568" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="180" RevisionGUID="8a606fff-923f-4c4a-90bc-3f5970e78255" CreationDate="2015-04-29T16:15:03.980" UserId="108" Text="The Welsh [Tylwyth Teg](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tylwyth_Teg), or fairies, is said to take human mates. This [website](http://www.bellaterreno.com/art/welsh/welshfairies.aspx) mentions how:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There are many tales of intermarriage between faeries and humans, and advice on how to make sure you actually have a fully human mate.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which implies it goes both ways, but it seems to be mostly fairy women marrying human men. Wikipedia for instances states only that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [F]airy maidens may become the wives of human men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Without any word on the reverse. Are there Welsh tales involving fairy men and human women marrying, or is this phenomenon restricted to fairy women?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="569" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="180" RevisionGUID="8a606fff-923f-4c4a-90bc-3f5970e78255" CreationDate="2015-04-29T16:15:03.980" UserId="108" Text="Do Welsh fairies marry human women?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="570" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="180" RevisionGUID="8a606fff-923f-4c4a-90bc-3f5970e78255" CreationDate="2015-04-29T16:15:03.980" UserId="108" Text="|welsh|british|folklore|fairies|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="571" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="167" RevisionGUID="4343b4b5-140a-41ae-98bc-8ed5197e96aa" CreationDate="2015-04-29T16:16:28.723" UserId="33" Comment="typos; tag with myth system" Text="The Wikipedia page suggest that in the epic, [Gilgamesh][1] is a demigod of superhuman strength.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How do we know he was a demigod? What makes someone a demigod?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did he possess some special powers that make him a superhuman?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgamesh" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="572" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="167" RevisionGUID="4343b4b5-140a-41ae-98bc-8ed5197e96aa" CreationDate="2015-04-29T16:16:28.723" UserId="33" Comment="typos; tag with myth system" Text="|gilgamesh|sumerian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="573" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="167" RevisionGUID="4343b4b5-140a-41ae-98bc-8ed5197e96aa" CreationDate="2015-04-29T16:16:28.723" Comment="Proposed by 33 approved by 51 edit id of 37" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="574" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="27" RevisionGUID="c70072c1-8175-4b61-a6ab-da3f4ee05179" CreationDate="2015-04-29T16:18:11.003" UserId="11" Comment="Seems people are using &quot;christianity&quot; not &quot;judeo-christian&quot;" Text="|norse|christianity|cross-mythology|linguistics|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="576" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="181" RevisionGUID="a7369827-70c4-4a71-88e1-6207297a8846" CreationDate="2015-04-29T16:23:49.307" UserId="51" Text="In which story we can find information about the Plant of Everlasting Youth and what kind of plant it was?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was it giving the immortality or something else?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="577" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="181" RevisionGUID="a7369827-70c4-4a71-88e1-6207297a8846" CreationDate="2015-04-29T16:23:49.307" UserId="51" Text="What was the Plant of Everlasting Youth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="578" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="181" RevisionGUID="a7369827-70c4-4a71-88e1-6207297a8846" CreationDate="2015-04-29T16:23:49.307" UserId="51" Text="|sumerian|immortality|plants|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="579" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="132" RevisionGUID="3aa83262-41e8-4111-9461-01f759ccdc92" CreationDate="2015-04-29T16:24:13.457" UserId="33" Comment="readability; retag to just [greek] for standardization" Text="According to Hesiod's Theogony, at first there was Chaos; from Chaos came Eros and Tartarus, Erebus and Aether; from Aether came Gaia; and from Gaia came Uranus, Ourea and Pontus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who created Chaos? How did Chaos create its children?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="580" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="132" RevisionGUID="3aa83262-41e8-4111-9461-01f759ccdc92" CreationDate="2015-04-29T16:24:13.457" UserId="33" Comment="readability; retag to just [greek] for standardization" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="581" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="132" RevisionGUID="3aa83262-41e8-4111-9461-01f759ccdc92" CreationDate="2015-04-29T16:24:13.457" Comment="Proposed by 33 approved by 110 edit id of 38" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="582" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="130" RevisionGUID="49179330-d444-445b-8eb0-9e601bd96c60" CreationDate="2015-04-29T16:26:11.380" UserId="108" Comment="added 72 characters in body" Text="1966 was a [`hinoe-uma (丙午)`](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bingwu) year. This does not come from &quot;crossing zodiac with elements&quot; per se, but is instead a specific combination of [*celestial stem*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_stem) and [*earthly branch*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthly_Branches) in the traditional [sexagenary dating system](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexagenary_cycle).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Both** the stem `hinoe (丙)` and branch `uma (午)` belonged to the element of fire. This overabundance of fieriness informs the astrological interpretations that those born on this year have a fiery character - impulsive, vociferous, quick to anger. To the Japanese in particular, `hinoe uma` is believed to a year of disasters due to its (somewhat irrational) association with great fires.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Specifically, there is a traditional superstition in Japan that women born in the year of `hinoe-uma` would shorten their husbands' life (and presumably vice versa but not quite as oft-repeated). This interpretation seems motivated (with little basis) by the [great fires of Edo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fires_in_Edo), and was popularised along with such tales as that of attempted arsonist [Yaoya Oshichi](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaoya_Oshichi).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Oshichi had a crush on someone she met during a previous fire, and attempted to set another fire in order to meet him again. Notably, she is believed to have been born in 1666, a `hinoe-um` year.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="583" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="182" RevisionGUID="e8ce5109-ff67-441e-aaa7-5672b521c96f" CreationDate="2015-04-29T16:30:37.717" UserId="51" Text="On the [Wikipedia page][1] we can read:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Babylonian astronomy, the constellation was listed in the MUL.APIN as GU4.AN.NA, &quot;The Bull of Heaven&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the Mesopotamian Epic of Gilgamesh, one of the earliest works of literature, the goddess Ishtar sends Taurus, the Bull of Heaven, to kill Gilgamesh for spurning her advances.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But still it's not clear enough for me.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does this mean Taurus constellation (zodiac sign) was named after the Bull of Heaven? Or it's just coincident?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurus_(constellation)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="584" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="182" RevisionGUID="e8ce5109-ff67-441e-aaa7-5672b521c96f" CreationDate="2015-04-29T16:30:37.717" UserId="51" Text="Is Taurus constellation was named after Bull of Heaven?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="585" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="182" RevisionGUID="e8ce5109-ff67-441e-aaa7-5672b521c96f" CreationDate="2015-04-29T16:30:37.717" UserId="51" Text="|mesopotamia|bull-of-heaven|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="586" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="183" RevisionGUID="53101989-7725-4668-b573-4fd575aa8d62" CreationDate="2015-04-29T16:34:48.403" UserId="26" Text="In Arthurian legend, the Lady of the Lake is usually depicted as a beautiful woman. However, she is clearly not human (as she seems to spend most of her time hanging out underwater). One might think mermaid, but I don't recall any mentions of fins or similar typical mermaid characteristics.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Is there any clarification, in Arthurian mythology, about what the Lady of the Lake is, or anything about her physical capabilities?**" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="587" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="183" RevisionGUID="53101989-7725-4668-b573-4fd575aa8d62" CreationDate="2015-04-29T16:34:48.403" UserId="26" Text="What species is the Lady of the Lake?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="588" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="183" RevisionGUID="53101989-7725-4668-b573-4fd575aa8d62" CreationDate="2015-04-29T16:34:48.403" UserId="26" Text="|mythical-creatures|arthurian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="589" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="170" RevisionGUID="eed3f95e-2438-4725-a4d2-850b79507214" CreationDate="2015-04-29T16:36:32.700" UserId="42" Comment="added 683 characters in body" Text="To address the claim that Cain moved away and then found his wife, this simply isn't stated in the text.  Perhaps the confusion is on the phrasing.  Genesis 4:16-17 doesn't say that Cain *met* his wife in the land of Nod.  Here is the King James Version of those verses:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.  And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The phrase &quot;knew his wife&quot; is a construction used repeatedly in the King James translation.  &quot;knew&quot; here doesn't mean &quot;met&quot;, it means &quot;had sex with&quot;.  Later translations usually make this a bit more clear to the modern ear, using phrases like &quot;made love to&quot;, instead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As I understand it (and I'm not a scholar of Hebrew), לדעת has many meanings, including both having knowledge of, and having sexual congress with (possibly euphemistically). To me, the intended meaning seems clear here (not all people I meet conceive and bear my children, after all). And to the best of my knowledge there isn't any real debate of the correct interpretation of this passage. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More discussion of this usage can be found on English Language &amp; Usage:  [Why did Old Testament scholars choose to employ “to know” in a sexual sense?](http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/20107/why-did-old-testament-scholars-choose-to-employ-to-know-in-a-sexual-sense)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is nothing that precludes Cain having already been married to one of his sisters at the time that he left for Nod, and that he brought her with him." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="590" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="144" RevisionGUID="26f78512-056e-4b03-b40d-a97c68b77ceb" CreationDate="2015-04-29T16:42:46.293" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 116 characters in body" Text="Unlike the Zeus or Norse pantheons, Chinese supreme deities are not very well defined. Generally speaking the chief deity of Chinese traditional beliefs is a personification of the sky; this character however evolved through the centuries as Chinese religious beliefs developed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Strictly speaking **the [`haotian shang-ti (昊天上帝)`](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shangdi) is the supreme deity of *traditional* Chinese religions.** He is attested to in the earliest Chinese writings as `ti` or [`tian`](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tian), and thus dates to the earliest period in Chinese civilisation. This is also the belief maintained in [Confucianism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucianism). His name is usually abbreviated to just `shang-ti`.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In contrast, **the [Jade Emperor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jade_Emperor) is the ruler of heaven in the [*Taoist* tradition](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism)**. He emerged much later in the [late Han Dynasty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_dynasty#Eastern_Han), as a Taoist interpretation of the traditional `shang-ti` and personification of [Polaris](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris). However, in the Taoist hierarchy the Jade Emperor is in fact second to the [Three Purities](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Pure_Ones). By definition, therefore, he is **not supreme**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The jurisdiction of the Jade Emperor closely resembles that of the temporal bureaucracy. Superimposed on him are the Three Pure Ones, represented by the triumvirate of the Celestial-honourd Primordial, the Supreme Old sovereign (Laotzu) and a third god, which are simple plagiarisms of the Buddhist trikaya.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Crotty, Robert B., ed. *The Charles Strong Lectures: 1972-1984.* Brill Archive, 1987.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For some period during the same dynasty, the Pole Star was worshiped (by imperial decree) as the supreme deity [`tai-yi (太乙)`](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiyi), eclipsing `shang-ti`. Confucianism ultimately rejected this interpretation however, and Taiyi was subsequently demoted in official dedications.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="591" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="182" RevisionGUID="8429a526-6e35-4369-a65f-66d9f30c3149" CreationDate="2015-04-29T17:09:20.910" UserId="79" Comment="grammar fix" Text="On the [Wikipedia page][1] we can read:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Babylonian astronomy, the constellation was listed in the MUL.APIN as GU4.AN.NA, &quot;The Bull of Heaven&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the Mesopotamian Epic of Gilgamesh, one of the earliest works of literature, the goddess Ishtar sends Taurus, the Bull of Heaven, to kill Gilgamesh for spurning her advances.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But still it's not clear enough for me.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does this mean Taurus constellation (zodiac sign) was named after the Bull of Heaven? Or it's just a coincidence?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurus_(constellation)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="592" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="182" RevisionGUID="8429a526-6e35-4369-a65f-66d9f30c3149" CreationDate="2015-04-29T17:09:20.910" UserId="79" Comment="grammar fix" Text="Is Taurus constellation was named after the Bull of Heaven?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="593" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="182" RevisionGUID="8429a526-6e35-4369-a65f-66d9f30c3149" CreationDate="2015-04-29T17:09:20.910" Comment="Proposed by 79 approved by 51 edit id of 40" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="594" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="184" RevisionGUID="43099e46-d123-4a37-b19f-a453456aeed2" CreationDate="2015-04-29T17:25:56.397" UserId="79" Text="Heracles had a number of male lovers. Plutarch's Dialogue sur l'amour (Eroticos) mentions that the number of Heracles' male lovers were beyond counting. Hence, the list of lovers presented here is incomplete (most probably):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Abderus&#xD;&#xA; - Admetus &#xD;&#xA; - Adonis&#xD;&#xA; - Corythus&#xD;&#xA; - Diomus&#xD;&#xA; - Elacatas&#xD;&#xA; - Euphemus&#xD;&#xA; - Hylas &#xD;&#xA; - Iolaus&#xD;&#xA; - Iphitus&#xD;&#xA; - Jason&#xD;&#xA; - Nestor&#xD;&#xA; - Nireus&#xD;&#xA; - Perithoas&#xD;&#xA; - Philoctetes&#xD;&#xA; - Phrix&#xD;&#xA; - Sostratus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nowhere it is mentioned that Eurystheus and Heracles were lovers, neigh, had feeling for each other. Hence the probability of Eurystheus being one of Heracles' lovers is ruled out.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;sources:&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heracles#Men)&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;              [Hellenica](http://www.hellenicaworld.com/Greece/Ancient/en/AncientGreekScienceAndTechnology.html)&#xD;&#xA;&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="595" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="185" RevisionGUID="d15012a1-8a63-466a-aa9b-0e3776a666b6" CreationDate="2015-04-29T17:52:58.623" UserId="26" Text="&gt; *Turn your cloaks / For fairy folks / Are in old oaks* - Old English saying&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I couldn't find a definitive explanation of why this legend happens. What I have ascertained is that it turns up absolutely everywhere, not just in Irish stories. I have found a few quotes that begin to offer a reason (although, I have to say, not a hugely satisfying one).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The main reason offered appears to be to confuse the fairies.** These sort of beings are depicted as mischeivous, and to counter their mischief, one could do something unexpected, to confuse them. This didn't necessarily repell them, in the same way that iron (which they were generally scared of) or other things might - it was more a last-minute distraction, designed to give you time to escape any enchantments, rather than a lasting effect.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's largely associated with pixies, as well as spriggans - it is often offered as a solution to being pixie-led:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Pixies] took a delight in misleading night-bound weary travellers&#xD;&#xA;&gt; until they became exhausted and lost; this was called being&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;pixy-led&quot;... The usual manner of disenchanting oneself from this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; situation was to remove one's jacket and put it back on inside out.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Spirits, Fairies, Leprechauns and Goblins*, Carol Rose&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Humans become lost on the trackless moors of Dartmoor are said to have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; been &quot;pixie led&quot;, or led astray by the pixies. It is said that if&#xD;&#xA;&gt; travelers feel the onset of the pixie spell, they can turn their coats&#xD;&#xA;&gt; inside out **to confuse the pixies and escape**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*An Encyclopedia of Mythology and Folklore*, Josepha Sherman (emphasis mine)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One way of avoiding fairies and their magic was to wear one's clothing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; inside out, **which would confound them**. Fairies were also reputed to be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; terrified of iron or steel, so even a single pin could prove effective&#xD;&#xA;&gt; against them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*The Everything Celtic Wisdom Book*, Jennifer Emick (emphasis mine)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This source also offers another alternative:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Actions could break the fairy spell. The most common one was turning&#xD;&#xA;&gt; one's clothing inside out or wearing it backward, the latter&#xD;&#xA;&gt; presumably based on the idea that the **fairies fail to torment someone&#xD;&#xA;&gt; who seems to be departing rather than approaching**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*The Encyclopedia of Celtic Mythology and Folkore*, Patrician Monaghan (emphasis mine)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, not an official source by any means, but [this blog post][1] offered an explanation which seems plausible and takes the idea of confusing the fairies a step further (and which I quite like - emphasis mine):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The presciption, intended to break the binding spell of the fairy&#xD;&#xA;&gt; otherworld, is a fight fire with fire recommendation; turning your&#xD;&#xA;&gt; coat inside out corresponds to and counters the inherently contrary&#xD;&#xA;&gt; nature of Elfland (It is Summer there when it's Winter here; we grow&#xD;&#xA;&gt; old, they grow young, etc.) ~ **thus by doing something irrational&#xD;&#xA;&gt; within irrationality, one may flip the coin and come out back in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; comfortably predictable and thus, safe, world of the mundane**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://dandylandmuse.blogspot.co.uk/2008/10/ue-it-looks-ghostly-doesnt-it-was.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="600" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="187" RevisionGUID="812dbff8-e38d-4aab-bb35-946192292bbe" CreationDate="2015-04-29T18:35:30.343" UserId="58" Text="In the Wikipedia page that you link, they all seem to be related to the gods or the supernatural.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As I understood the myth, the Siren is a symbol for the lure of the sea; men feel attracted to the sea despite the danger it poses. The mermaid is similarly used to symbolize the attraction of the sea. There is a difference, the temptation posed by a mermaid is the beauty of her body, the temptation of a Siren is in her voice. Depicting the lure of the sea as a desirable woman works as a great narrative device.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the Sirens have a supernatural origin, and their power is supernatural. Their seductive magic is in their voice, so they don't have to be beautiful - or Odysseus would have required his men to not only stuff their ears, but also wear blindfolds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When depicting Sirens, it makes sense to depict them as beautiful women to make it more immediately clear to the audience that they are temptresses. But this was not in the Odyssey." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="601" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="188" RevisionGUID="4e2925ea-00b7-4a42-b852-b870e4ddb8a4" CreationDate="2015-04-29T18:38:56.850" UserId="79" Text="The Bull of heaven was sent to earth by the goddess Ishtar, to destroy Gilgamesh. But Gilgamesh thwarts the bull and kills it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There two versions of the incidents that happened next.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From [Sky Script](http://www.skyscript.co.uk/taurus_myth.html):&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Gilgamesh triumphed over the Bull, **which was then placed in the heavens**, but for his sacrilege the gods declared that the life of his best friend, Enkidu, should be taken as a forfeit. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This particular extract indicates that, after its death, the bull rose to the heavens, receiving a place in there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The other version, from [Sydney Observatory](http://www.sydneyobservatory.com.au/2014/dr-pryke-considers-taurus-and-the-bull-of-heaven-in-mesopotamian-myth-and-astronomy/):&#xD;&#xA;&gt;However, Gilgamesh is able to use his heroic strength to slay the giant creature, and **offers its heart to the Mesopotamian sun god, Shamash**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This extract, tells that it was Gilgamesh who presented the bull to the Sun god. But it is not clearly mentioned whether it was Shamash or some other being, who placed the bull of heaven as the constellation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hence from both cases, it is certain that it was indeed the bull of heaven which became the constellation known as Taurus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="604" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="189" RevisionGUID="b85f061f-bd13-47da-84f2-2bf7dc79d9a5" CreationDate="2015-04-29T18:56:16.097" UserId="135" Text="There are a lot of different stories about the Sirens'nature, looks, number and parentage. One that keeps coming back is that initially they were indeed beautiful sea nymphs/ demi-godesses, able to lure seamen purely with the beauty of their song. They were also Persephone's handmaidens. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Persephone was abducted by Hades, Demeter gave them the bodies of birds so that they could assist in the search for the girl (in some versions they requested this, in others , e.g. that of Ovid, they were punished by Demeter because she held them responsible for Persephone's abduction - due to negligence).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Check out [this link][1]: it has a lot of information gathered on the sirens from different sources. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Seirenes.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="605" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="190" RevisionGUID="f5ddadfb-e830-4b12-b4dd-3e735bf20dec" CreationDate="2015-04-29T19:02:39.917" UserId="110" Text="Apollonius of Tyana is believed to be similar to Jesus Christ. Both &quot;lived&quot; during the same period in time and both made similar miracles. &#xD;&#xA;Was Apollonios of Tyana a historical figure that was raised to divinity or is he completely mythological?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="606" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="190" RevisionGUID="f5ddadfb-e830-4b12-b4dd-3e735bf20dec" CreationDate="2015-04-29T19:02:39.917" UserId="110" Text="Was Apollonius of Tyana a historical figure?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="607" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="190" RevisionGUID="f5ddadfb-e830-4b12-b4dd-3e735bf20dec" CreationDate="2015-04-29T19:02:39.917" UserId="110" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="608" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="191" RevisionGUID="85c7795c-7289-4034-95b7-2cde4818e99e" CreationDate="2015-04-29T19:05:42.953" UserId="53" Text="Many early Celtic legends apply male and female characteristics to geographical features.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you take Mary Caine's works on the areas around the Isle of Avalon, the hills of Glastonbury, then the location of the lake is female.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where the Michael ley line (red male energy) intersects the much shorter Mary ley line (white female energy) at Glastonbury Tor, the Mary ley leads to Pomparles Bridge.  This was said by the Monks of the Abbey to be the place where Excalibur was returned to the lake.  The lake therefore being female energy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sir Thomas Malory is the first to use the phrase &quot;Lady of the Lake&quot; in his poetry.  This has come into popular culture as anthropomorphising the lake itself." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="609" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="164" RevisionGUID="3863ce0f-bb8b-4c7f-9cf3-020160593e40" CreationDate="2015-04-29T19:07:32.530" UserId="129" Comment="added more information" Text="Direct quote from the wikipedia article of [Mjölnir][1]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hammer of [Thor][2], a major Norse god associated with thunder. [Mjölnir][1] is depicted in Norse mythology as one of the most fearsome weapons, capable of leveling mountains. In his account of Norse mythology, Snorri Sturluson relates how the hammer was made by the dwarven brothers [Sindri][3] and [Brokkr][4], and how its characteristically short handle was due to a mishap during its manufacture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As to how it's made it is said on the wiki that it was made as a bet to show Loki that they could make a item more beautiful than those of the Sons of Ivaldi. Although they didn't intend to make the handle as short as it is. the reason for that is that Loki did not intend to let them win and therefor tried to hinder them during forging. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Finally, Sindri puts some iron in the forge and tells Brokkr not to stop pumping the bellows. Loki comes a third time and this time bites Brokkr on the eyelid even harder. The bite is so deep that it draws blood. The blood runs into Brokkr's eyes and forces him stop working the bellows just long enough to wipe his eyes. This time, when Sindri returns, he takes Mjöllnir out of the forge. The handle is shorter than Sindri had planned and so the hammer can only be wielded with one hand.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And as to how [Thor][2] got [Mjölnir][1] if my memory isn't wrong then it was because [Mjölnir][1] was given to [Odin][5] as a gift. When [Odin][5] found out that [Mjölnir][1] deemed [Thor][2] worthy to wield him [Odin][5] gave [Mjölnir][1] to [Thor][2]. For he him self didn't need the hammer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]:http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mj%C3%B6lnir&#xD;&#xA;[2]:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor&#xD;&#xA;[3]:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eitri&#xD;&#xA;[4]:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brokkr&#xD;&#xA;[5]:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odin" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="611" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="191" RevisionGUID="dc39ce3d-eca3-4c0f-826d-76ea78705489" CreationDate="2015-04-29T19:20:15.513" UserId="53" Comment="Added arm in white samite" Text="Many early Celtic legends apply male and female characteristics to geographical features.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you take Mary Caine's works on the areas around the Isle of Avalon, the hills of Glastonbury, then the location of the lake is female.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where the Michael ley line (red male energy) intersects the much shorter Mary ley line (white female energy) at Glastonbury Tor, the Mary ley leads to Pomparles Bridge.  This was said by the Monks of the Abbey to be the place where Excalibur was returned to the lake.  The lake therefore being female energy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sir Thomas Malory is the first to use the phrase &quot;Lady of the Lake&quot; in his poetry.  This has come into popular culture as anthropomorphising the lake itself.  He does however give us the physical description of &quot;An arm in white samite&quot; which takes the sword." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="612" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="192" RevisionGUID="9c97c9ae-7f81-4415-8149-06f70784a49a" CreationDate="2015-04-29T19:22:51.170" UserId="79" Text="The only two examples I can remember at the moment are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Ra merging with Horus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In later Egyptian dynastic times, Ra was merged with the god Horus, as Ra-Horakhty (&quot;Ra, who is Horus of the Two Horizons&quot;).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 2. Amun merging with Ra&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;After the rebellion of Thebes against the Hyksos and with the rule of Ahmose I, Amun acquired national importance, expressed in his fusion with the Sun god, Ra, as Amun-Ra.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What does fusion/merging really imply? What becomes of the duties of the fused god(s)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="613" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="192" RevisionGUID="9c97c9ae-7f81-4415-8149-06f70784a49a" CreationDate="2015-04-29T19:22:51.170" UserId="79" Text="How does merging of two gods actually work?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="614" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="192" RevisionGUID="9c97c9ae-7f81-4415-8149-06f70784a49a" CreationDate="2015-04-29T19:22:51.170" UserId="79" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="615" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="81" RevisionGUID="d4d37240-3642-46b7-9266-ddcc29758f4b" CreationDate="2015-04-29T19:27:12.273" UserId="36" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="##The [Minotaur][1] was a lone creature, the first and only of it's kind. The unfortunate result of a Greek God loosing his temper.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Shortly after King Minos (or [Minos The King][2]) ascended to the throne of the island of Crete, he began to pray to [Poseidon][3] for a sign of his right to sit on said throne. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Poseidon sent a snow-white bull, the [Cretan Bull][4], out of the sea as a gift to Minos and as proof that he was indeed worthy to be king, and in turn Minos promised he would sacrifice the bull in Posidean's name.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortuanlty, Minos' wife [Pasiphaë][5], took a liking to the bull and begged Minos to spare it. Minos did, and sacrificed a different bull in it's place.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortuatly again, Poseidon was not easily deceived and when he learned of Minos' treachery, he promptly cursed Pasiphaë with [zoophilia][6]...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_It get's creepy from here on..._&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;!Pasiphaë's zoophilic urges got the better of her but alas, she could not seduce the Cretan Bull. So she had a wooden bull built. Apparently a very realistic and attractive wooden bull. And proceeded to climb inside and wait for nature to take it's course. Sure enough this did the trick and soon the palace was blessed with the pitter-patter of cloven feet. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Minotaur, which they named Asterius, was an abomination. So with the help of [Daedalus][7], [The Labyrinth][8] was constructed. As Daedalus puts it, it was a : &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt;chamber that with its tangled windings perplexed the outward way&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Minos place Asterius in the centre, and as he didn't want anyone to know about his odd step-son, he threw Daedalus and his son [Icarus][9] in too but [they escaped][10].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And so the poor Minotaur languished in The Labyrinth alone, for the rest of his miserable days. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;...until [Theseus][11] paid him a [visit][12].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minotaur&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minos&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poseidon&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretan_Bull&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasipha%C3%AB&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoophilia&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daedalus&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labyrinth&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icarus&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.corbisimages.com/images/Corbis-42-18132270.jpg?size=67&amp;uid=2a711a1d-ee5d-484d-9114-6a39bdd52302&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theseus&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://slodive.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/simon-dominic-brewer/Theseus-and-the-Minotaur.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="616" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="193" RevisionGUID="d1a2951d-34b0-4dbf-af70-d3be7441be9d" CreationDate="2015-04-29T19:35:14.890" UserId="38" Text="From *New Scientist* Dec 24-31, 1988 (available [here][1]), an explanation of how the myth of Gilgamesh and the Bull came about due to the constellation's position. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Taurus faces Orion in the sky. There is no Greek myth to explain this conflict, but the Sumerian of the Middle East saw Orion as their great hero Gilgamesh fighting a creature called the Bull of Heaven&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=wYbt_U_FjWgC&amp;pg=PA36&amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="618" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="141" RevisionGUID="f7fbc9af-d838-4278-a8d3-0becd28c1edd" CreationDate="2015-04-29T19:44:32.583" UserId="-1" Comment="102" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:9,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chad&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:79,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ero Sɘnnin&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:98,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;PythonMaster&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:58,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Vixen Populi&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:18,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;El'endia Starman&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="619" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="192" RevisionGUID="f1d625ee-a501-45fb-9a28-ed64be9b972c" CreationDate="2015-04-29T19:46:57.807" UserId="18" Comment="Added clarification." Text="The only two examples I can remember at the moment are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Ra merging with Horus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In later Egyptian dynastic times, Ra was merged with the god Horus, as Ra-Horakhty (&quot;Ra, who is Horus of the Two Horizons&quot;).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 2. Amun merging with Ra&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;After the rebellion of Thebes against the Hyksos and with the rule of Ahmose I, Amun acquired national importance, expressed in his fusion with the Sun god, Ra, as Amun-Ra.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What does fusion/merging really imply? What becomes of the duties of the fused god(s)? Answers should derive from Egyptian mythology specifically." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="620" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="192" RevisionGUID="f1d625ee-a501-45fb-9a28-ed64be9b972c" CreationDate="2015-04-29T19:46:57.807" Comment="Proposed by 18 approved by 79 edit id of 43" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="621" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="194" RevisionGUID="92561f24-90bc-429f-8df7-935c8651b2d8" CreationDate="2015-04-29T19:49:29.547" UserId="129" Text="I was reading about something and came across the [wikipage][E] of Loki. There it says that Loki is a shapeshifter.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Loki is a shape shifter and in separate incidents he appears in the form of a salmon, mare, seal, a fly, and possibly an elderly woman. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But when I take a look at the [Dutch wikipage][D] for Loki it says that Loki's parents where giants thus making Loki one as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And in some occasions Loki is said to be ( or portrayed as) a god like Thor and Odin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So from what we know what is Loki? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[D]:http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki&#xD;&#xA;[E]:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="622" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="194" RevisionGUID="92561f24-90bc-429f-8df7-935c8651b2d8" CreationDate="2015-04-29T19:49:29.547" UserId="129" Text="What is Loki considered to be?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="623" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="194" RevisionGUID="92561f24-90bc-429f-8df7-935c8651b2d8" CreationDate="2015-04-29T19:49:29.547" UserId="129" Text="|norse|mythohistory|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="624" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="195" RevisionGUID="30f934c9-8f08-4030-aa26-062a30b7ef65" CreationDate="2015-04-29T19:52:09.030" UserDisplayName="user124" Text="Several sources state that Apollonius of Tyana was indeed a real person. For example, the website Livius.org's page [Apollonius of Tyana][1] states that he was a charismatic teacher and miracle worker from the 1st century AD.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Crucially,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He received divine honors in the third century. Although the Athenian sophist (professional orator) Philostratus wrote a lengthy [Life of Apollonius,][2] hardly anything about the sage is certain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The work from Philostratus was not a biography in the traditional sense, but rather from an orator, who wanted to make clear &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that the divine Apollonius was above all a champion of the Greek culture and a wise philosopher&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But makes special note that it was Apollonius' &quot;superior knowledge&quot;, not &quot;wizardry&quot; that allowed him to perform his work.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, in the [8th Book][3] of Philostratus' account about his &quot;ascension&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The writer culls various versions of the end of Apollonius' earthly existence from other sources, devoting the most attention to Apollonius' ascension from the Dictynna temple on Crete (8.30). The sage of Tyana appears posthumously to a young man in a dream to confirm the immortality of the soul (8.31).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.livius.org/ap-ark/apollonius/apollonius01.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.livius.org/ap-ark/apollonius/apollonius_life.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.livius.org/ap-ark/apollonius/apollonius_life.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="625" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="182" RevisionGUID="bd15e8bb-e6b0-40d4-a1a8-9f22ae110627" CreationDate="2015-04-29T20:00:30.740" UserId="26" Comment="fixed grammar in title, removed tag" Text="Was the constellation named after the Bull of Heaven?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="626" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="182" RevisionGUID="bd15e8bb-e6b0-40d4-a1a8-9f22ae110627" CreationDate="2015-04-29T20:00:30.740" UserId="26" Comment="fixed grammar in title, removed tag" Text="|mesopotamia|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="627" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="182" RevisionGUID="bd15e8bb-e6b0-40d4-a1a8-9f22ae110627" CreationDate="2015-04-29T20:00:30.740" Comment="Proposed by 26 approved by 51 edit id of 44" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="628" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="196" RevisionGUID="0e6e9eeb-c43c-41b4-b7a9-5a269f475d7c" CreationDate="2015-04-29T20:00:51.370" UserId="58" Text="Both the Dutch and the English wikipedia pages state that Loki is the son of Fárbauti and Laufey, who are both giants. Loki is a giant. The Dutch page adds that he is also a blood brother to Odin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The fact that Loki can shift shape - and can even change his sex while doing so, as (s)he did when (s)he gave birth to Sleipnir - does not alter the fact that he is a giant. &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="629" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="196" RevisionGUID="69627aa3-115d-4122-af83-435fd43cc77e" CreationDate="2015-04-29T20:06:09.420" UserId="58" Comment="added 100 characters in body" Text="Both the Dutch and the English wikipedia pages state that Loki is the son of Fárbauti and Laufey, who are both giants (Jötun). Loki is a Jötun, a giant, as well. The Dutch page adds that he is also a blood brother to Odin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The fact that Loki can shift shape - and can even change his sex while doing so, as (s)he did when (s)he gave birth to Sleipnir - does not alter the fact that he is a giant. It is simply his special gift, which fits his nature as a trickster deity.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="630" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="197" RevisionGUID="f89d2c9e-e6f6-4c38-b8fc-7a74a15d6573" CreationDate="2015-04-29T20:06:13.597" UserId="129" Text="On the wikipage of Mjölnir it is said to be made by the dwarves Eitri and Brokkr. On wikipedia it also says that they created other items for the gods. Those items being: Skidbladnir, the ship of Freyr, Mjölnir,Draupnir and Gungnir&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wiki Quotes:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;the Sons of Ivaldi are a group of dwarfs who fashion Skidbladnir, the ship of Freyr, and the Gungnir, the spear of Odin, as well as golden hair for Sif to replace what Loki had cut off.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Eitri succeeded in making the golden boar Gullinbursti, the golden ring Draupnir, and the hammer Mjöllnir.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question being, are there any other items that the dwarves made for the gods of the norse mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="631" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="197" RevisionGUID="f89d2c9e-e6f6-4c38-b8fc-7a74a15d6573" CreationDate="2015-04-29T20:06:13.597" UserId="129" Text="What item's were by the dwarves for the norse gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="632" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="197" RevisionGUID="f89d2c9e-e6f6-4c38-b8fc-7a74a15d6573" CreationDate="2015-04-29T20:06:13.597" UserId="129" Text="|norse|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="633" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="37" RevisionGUID="2e781b73-8d87-4522-af7c-e608d3136252" CreationDate="2015-04-29T20:08:36.957" UserId="29" Comment="deleted 23 characters in body" Text="Theseus's paternity seems to be in question.  Which God fathered him? &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="634" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="197" RevisionGUID="ce3af35a-b488-4a96-9650-a5bc787834a5" CreationDate="2015-04-29T20:11:04.433" UserId="79" Comment="caps, tag &amp; grammar" Text="On the Wikipage of Mjölnir, it is said to be made by the dwarves Eitri and Brokkr. Wikipedia also states that they created other items for the gods. Those items being: Skidbladnir, the ship of Freyr, Mjölnir, Draupnir and Gungnir.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wiki Quotes:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;the Sons of Ivaldi are a group of dwarfs who fashion Skidbladnir, the ship of Freyr, and the Gungnir, the spear of Odin, as well as golden hair for Sif to replace what Loki had cut off.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Eitri succeeded in making the golden boar Gullinbursti, the golden ring Draupnir, and the hammer Mjöllnir.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question being, are there any other items that the dwarves made for the gods of the Norse mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="635" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="197" RevisionGUID="ce3af35a-b488-4a96-9650-a5bc787834a5" CreationDate="2015-04-29T20:11:04.433" UserId="79" Comment="caps, tag &amp; grammar" Text="What items were made by the dwarves for the Norse gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="636" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="197" RevisionGUID="ce3af35a-b488-4a96-9650-a5bc787834a5" CreationDate="2015-04-29T20:11:04.433" UserId="79" Comment="caps, tag &amp; grammar" Text="|norse|god-items|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="637" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="197" RevisionGUID="ce3af35a-b488-4a96-9650-a5bc787834a5" CreationDate="2015-04-29T20:11:04.433" Comment="Proposed by 79 approved by 129 edit id of 45" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="638" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="37" RevisionGUID="44a79047-bdb8-487e-994d-8fd3e2816d68" CreationDate="2015-04-29T20:14:00.597" UserId="29" Comment="deleted 23 characters in body" Text="Theseus's paternity seems to be in question.  Who was his father?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="639" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="37" RevisionGUID="44a79047-bdb8-487e-994d-8fd3e2816d68" CreationDate="2015-04-29T20:14:00.597" UserId="29" Comment="deleted 23 characters in body" Text="Who was the father of Theseus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="640" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="198" RevisionGUID="7781fa5f-d5e1-44a7-bea7-6f440d425e47" CreationDate="2015-04-29T20:23:11.150" UserId="36" Text="###[Loki][1] is an anomaly, [his parents][2] were a giant, Fárbauti, and a goddess (or possibly a giantess, we don't know for sure) Laufey.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_(I can't find any decent images of either Fárbauti or Laufey)_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you say, he is indeed a shapeshifter, in fact he is the [_mother_][3] of Odin's horse [Sleipnir][4], whom he gave birth to after shapshifting into a mare and breeding with [Svaðilfari][5] .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But in his _normal_ form, he also regularly mated with Asgardians and [giants][6], the offspring of these pairings were all manner of creatures :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Fenrir][7], who kills Odin during the events of Ragnarök&#xD;&#xA; - [Jormungandar][8], whom is so large his body emcompasses the entire planet&#xD;&#xA; - [Hel][9], the half dead goddess&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It really seems as if Loki is a shapeshifter in the truest sense of the word and takes whatever form suited him best at the time. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/the-aesir-gods-and-goddesses/loki/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://loki-in-myth.tumblr.com/post/29634916739/creation-to-lokis-conception&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://norse-mythology.org/tales/the-fortification-of-asgard/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/others/sleipnir/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/mythology/myths/text/wall_of_asgard.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://feminismandreligion.com/2012/08/22/angrboda-her-children-and-our-shadow-selves-by-deanne-quarrie/&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/209/0/9/FENRIR_by_pamansazz.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.google.ie/search?q=jormungand%20norse%20mythology&amp;newwindow=1&amp;es_sm=93&amp;biw=944&amp;bih=961&amp;source=lnms&amp;tbm=isch&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=LzxBVa6yLMGc7gbEiIGgDQ&amp;ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ#imgrc=bupFnDDs4975RM%253A%3BHsTzGbi-deohiM%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fs-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com%252Foriginals%252F03%252F0f%252Fdf%252F030fdfc2008d1119149d04e136bd9963.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fpixshark.com%252Fnorse-mythology-jormungand.htm%3B900%3B738&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-aswvRluFlZA/TtpiGeAZCDI/AAAAAAAAAno/GCO3NMuhE_4/s1600/Hel%2Bpost.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="641" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="199" RevisionGUID="07a6bd7a-da37-4e00-8240-54f537421be1" CreationDate="2015-04-29T20:25:06.800" UserId="33" Text="Is there anything in the Matter of Britain (or, if I'm using that term wrong, medieval British mythology in general) that discusses Stonehenge? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm curious, given how Stonehenge has captured the modern imagination, whether medieval mythographers thought to make any &quot;just-so stories&quot; about Stonehenge, or anything like that." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="642" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="199" RevisionGUID="07a6bd7a-da37-4e00-8240-54f537421be1" CreationDate="2015-04-29T20:25:06.800" UserId="33" Text="Does anything in the Matter of Britain ever explain or otherwise address Stonehenge?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="643" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="199" RevisionGUID="07a6bd7a-da37-4e00-8240-54f537421be1" CreationDate="2015-04-29T20:25:06.800" UserId="33" Text="|british|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="644" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="16" RevisionGUID="7a41ec0b-d5d9-4fc6-bc62-9838a10b163d" CreationDate="2015-04-29T20:25:18.217" UserId="11" Comment="Added crossover tag" Text="|greek|buddhist|cross-mythology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="645" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="16" RevisionGUID="7a41ec0b-d5d9-4fc6-bc62-9838a10b163d" CreationDate="2015-04-29T20:25:18.217" Comment="Proposed by 11 approved by 29, 33 edit id of 46" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="647" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="39" RevisionGUID="9594d888-a35d-41c6-a394-a795d5a27244" CreationDate="2015-04-29T20:28:16.880" UserId="33" Comment="edited tags" Text="|maya|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="648" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="198" RevisionGUID="f34fb145-7d03-4bdd-bceb-d3ba187ca654" CreationDate="2015-04-29T20:32:39.750" UserId="36" Comment="added 233 characters in body" Text="###[Loki][1] is an anomaly, [his parents][2] were a giant, Fárbauti, and a goddess (or possibly a giantess, we don't know for sure) Laufey.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_(I can't find any decent images of either Fárbauti or Laufey)_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Loki's was originally considered a fire deity, before becoming the trickster we know him as. Farbauti means 'fierce strike' and Laufey means 'pine needles'. So his birth was the result of lightening striking 'pine needles', or the forest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you say, he is indeed a shapeshifter, in fact he is the [_mother_][3] of Odin's horse [Sleipnir][4], whom he gave birth to after shapshifting into a mare and breeding with [Svaðilfari][5] .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But in his _normal_ form, he also regularly mated with Asgardians and [giants][6], the offspring of these pairings were all manner of creatures :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Fenrir][7], who kills Odin during the events of Ragnarök&#xD;&#xA; - [Jormungandar][8], whom is so large his body emcompasses the entire planet&#xD;&#xA; - [Hel][9], the half dead goddess&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It really seems as if Loki is a shapeshifter in the truest sense of the word and takes whatever form suites him best at the time. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/the-aesir-gods-and-goddesses/loki/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://loki-in-myth.tumblr.com/post/29634916739/creation-to-lokis-conception&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://norse-mythology.org/tales/the-fortification-of-asgard/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/others/sleipnir/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/mythology/myths/text/wall_of_asgard.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://feminismandreligion.com/2012/08/22/angrboda-her-children-and-our-shadow-selves-by-deanne-quarrie/&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/209/0/9/FENRIR_by_pamansazz.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.google.ie/search?q=jormungand%20norse%20mythology&amp;newwindow=1&amp;es_sm=93&amp;biw=944&amp;bih=961&amp;source=lnms&amp;tbm=isch&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=LzxBVa6yLMGc7gbEiIGgDQ&amp;ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ#imgrc=bupFnDDs4975RM%253A%3BHsTzGbi-deohiM%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fs-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com%252Foriginals%252F03%252F0f%252Fdf%252F030fdfc2008d1119149d04e136bd9963.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fpixshark.com%252Fnorse-mythology-jormungand.htm%3B900%3B738&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-aswvRluFlZA/TtpiGeAZCDI/AAAAAAAAAno/GCO3NMuhE_4/s1600/Hel%2Bpost.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="649" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="200" RevisionGUID="0f2b67ad-f7c0-49c6-b0fd-f407a5fad1b0" CreationDate="2015-04-29T20:38:36.083" UserId="33" Text="One rather memorable event in the Shinto creation narrative is that Amaterasu retreated into her cave (the Ama-no-Iwato) after Susanoo did a bunch of awful things to her. One of the things Susanoo did was throw a flayed horse at her. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, I can see why anybody would be unhappy about having a flayed horse thrown at them, but I can't help but wonder if there's some subtext here that I'm missing. Why _specifically_ a flayed horse? For example, was it the case that the horse was an animal sacred to Amaterasu? Or, contrariwise, was the horse perhaps seen as an &quot;unclean&quot; animal, whereby having one thrown at you was some sort of grievous insult?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="650" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="200" RevisionGUID="0f2b67ad-f7c0-49c6-b0fd-f407a5fad1b0" CreationDate="2015-04-29T20:38:36.083" UserId="33" Text="Why was Amaterasu so angered by the flayed horse that Susanoo threw at her?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="651" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="200" RevisionGUID="0f2b67ad-f7c0-49c6-b0fd-f407a5fad1b0" CreationDate="2015-04-29T20:38:36.083" UserId="33" Text="|japanese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="652" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="201" RevisionGUID="02d6b8cd-bccf-4e5b-991f-07818eb2aaf9" CreationDate="2015-04-29T20:54:02.943" UserId="11" Text="It certainly seems that the Greek invasion of India led to the introduction of the first statues of the Buddha. The Greeks loved to make statues of their deities, but the early Buddhists did not. See this answer on Buddhism Stack Exchange: http://buddhism.stackexchange.com/questions/2515/did-the-buddha-discourage-antropomorphic-representations-of-himself&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Alexander himself certainly seemed interested in participating in all the local religions around which he was encountering:](http://www.academia.edu/5974580/When_the_Greeks_Converted_the_Buddha_Asymmetrical_Transfers_of_Knowledge_in_Indo-Greek_Cultures)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Alexander was unusually open to foreign religious influences and over the course of his lifetime he embraced many non-Greek deities and practices, sacrificing to the Egyptian gods while in Egypt and rebuilding the temple of the god Bel in Babylon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ultimately, it seems that the two cultures recognized the existence of the other as separate religions. There was enough cultural self awareness in this period in this part of the world for people to identify themselves as members of a particular religion, and ultimately to convert to another, such as the case of [Greek King Meander I](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menander_I), who converted to Buddhism in the second century BCE. There is a Buddhist text, the [Milinda Panha](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milinda_Panha), which is philosophical discussions between King Meander and a Buddhist monk Nagasena. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, ultimately, because of the self identification as distinct religions / traditions, *there appears to be little **narrative** crossover in this period*, as much as there were cultural crossover recognized in things like currency (see the Meander article again), art, and [morality, e.g.](http://www.academia.edu/5974580/When_the_Greeks_Converted_the_Buddha_Asymmetrical_Transfers_of_Knowledge_in_Indo-Greek_Cultures):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In order to propagate rules based on morality, equality and righteousness (Pāli dhamma; Skt. dharma), he employed several official languages and scripts derived from Aramaic, namely Brāhmī and Kharoṣṭhī, and also used Greek and Aramaic in public inscriptions carved on polished rock or stone. His pragmatism was likely to have been inspired by the Buddhists  who propagated their teachings in the languages spoken in different regions. In what may have been the earliest of these inscriptions issued in 258 B.C.E. Aśoka declares himself to have been a lay Buddhist disciple for more than two and a half years, and by the eighth year of his reign he publicly expresses remorse for the massacre in Kaliṇga and denounces the taking of lives." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="654" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="203" RevisionGUID="02f1a4b2-70ff-4484-82a2-d55224f9b762" CreationDate="2015-04-29T21:03:52.810" UserId="79" Text="The objects mentioned in your were created by Eitri and Brokkr, and the Sons of Ivaldi. However, there exists more objects which were crafted by the dwarves. You can find a list of objects belonging to Norse deities here:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Viking Mythology**](http://www.viking-mythology.com/items.php)&#xD;&#xA;--&#xD;&#xA;[**Timeless Myth**](http://www.timelessmyths.com/norse/objects.html)&#xD;&#xA;--&#xD;&#xA;Most of the objects mentioned in the list were created by the Dwarf craftsmen. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="655" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="178" RevisionGUID="0e118d65-6c8c-4c4f-8200-c5749ab71972" CreationDate="2015-04-29T21:19:02.717" UserId="61" Comment="added tag (demi-gods)" Text="|greek|demi-gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="656" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="178" RevisionGUID="0e118d65-6c8c-4c4f-8200-c5749ab71972" CreationDate="2015-04-29T21:19:02.717" Comment="Proposed by 61 approved by 29, 28 edit id of 41" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="657" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="204" RevisionGUID="ec22b135-f4e9-4fd6-908c-97427506f162" CreationDate="2015-04-29T21:31:19.190" UserId="108" Text="It wasn't the flayed horse that [`Amaterasu-ōmikami`](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amaterasu) was offended by, per se.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the [*kojiki* `(古事記)`](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kojiki), what happened was that [`Susano'o`](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susanoo-no-Mikoto) flayed a beautiful spotted horse and threw it into a room where Amaterasu's weavers were making clothes. In the ensuing shock and chaos, one of the weaving girls was impaled on a [shuttle](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuttle_%28weaving%29) (through her private parts...) and killed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The version in [*Nihon Shoki* `(日本書紀)`](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihon_Shoki) is similar, but elaborates that the unfortunate weaver was **`waka hirume no mikoto (稚日女尊)`**, Amaterasu's own sister. Understandably, Amaterasu was less than amused. The *Shoki* further explains that, in her grief and anger:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 【日本書紀　卷第一　第七段】 故天照大神謂素戔嗚尊曰　汝猶有黑心　不欲與汝相見　乃入于天石窟&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (*Nihon Shoki* volume 1 section 7) Therefore, Amaterasu-omikami said to Susano'o; &quot;You have a black heart; I do not wish to see you.&quot; And so she entered [Ama-no-Iwato](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amano-Iwato).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So it seems that Amaterasu was angered by the consequences of her brother's actions, rather than the horse itself." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="658" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="205" RevisionGUID="2bf1c0c1-379e-4a32-804d-9efb6d92a3f9" CreationDate="2015-04-29T21:36:58.117" UserId="51" Text="The Anunnaki, a group of deities in ancient Mesopotamian culture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How many they were at the peak time (which we know about)?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And according to which sources?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="659" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="205" RevisionGUID="2bf1c0c1-379e-4a32-804d-9efb6d92a3f9" CreationDate="2015-04-29T21:36:58.117" UserId="51" Text="How many Annunaki were living on Earth at the peak?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="660" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="205" RevisionGUID="2bf1c0c1-379e-4a32-804d-9efb6d92a3f9" CreationDate="2015-04-29T21:36:58.117" UserId="51" Text="|mesopotamia|anunnaki|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="661" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="206" RevisionGUID="42c01a20-1745-4fb3-99cb-dc263eef0526" CreationDate="2015-04-29T21:44:16.510" UserId="51" Text="How many Great Gods the Sumerians had?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was it twelve as counted on [Wikipedia][1] or it's just a coincidence? Does the number of Great Gods has any meaning?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_religion#Pantheon" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="662" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="206" RevisionGUID="42c01a20-1745-4fb3-99cb-dc263eef0526" CreationDate="2015-04-29T21:44:16.510" UserId="51" Text="How many Great Gods the Sumerians had?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="663" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="206" RevisionGUID="42c01a20-1745-4fb3-99cb-dc263eef0526" CreationDate="2015-04-29T21:44:16.510" UserId="51" Text="|sumerian|gods|numbers|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="664" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="179" RevisionGUID="30e3d0ea-7659-44c9-931f-289f2c1815b5" CreationDate="2015-04-29T21:44:36.330" UserId="-1" Comment="102" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:18,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;El'endia Starman&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:29,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;naltipar&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:79,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ero Sɘnnin&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:26,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Luna&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:138,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;King Shimkus&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="665" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="207" RevisionGUID="430f1ab3-99df-4d31-b7fa-4a1995af4633" CreationDate="2015-04-29T21:49:29.173" UserId="42" Text="I'm drawing my information for this answer from my reading of the doctoral dissertation of Amira El-Zein, titled &quot;The Evolution of the Concept of the Jinn from Pre-Islam to Islam&quot;.  I have attempted to summarize *extremely briefly* a few salient bits, particularly from pages 65-98.  However, as it turns out, this topic is actually fairly complex, so giving it a read would be recommended:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://www.scribd.com/doc/32732591/The-Evolution-of-the-Concept-of-the-Jinn&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jinn is a classification of a number of different types of supernatural being.  They may be either good or bad, and there is no clear demarcation between types of jinn as either strictly good or strictly evil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The could appear as pure spiritual beings, as stand ins for angels or demons, as indicated by Ibn Manẓūr, in &quot;Lisān al-ʿArab&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The people of the Jahiliyyah called angels-peace be upon them-jinn because they were invisible from sight&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They could also be tangible creatures, particularly with animal-like characteristics, as stated by &quot;The Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...were not pure spirits, for they were often represented as hairy and often as having the form of an ostrich or a snake.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Four specific types of Jinn are detailed as significant in the pre-islamic world:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Ghūl - Quoting Al-Jāḥiẓ &quot;Every supernatural creature that takes diverse forms&quot;.  They seem to appear in many different forms, often animalistic, and can appear and disappear &quot;like the light of a torch&quot;.  They (and generally any jinn, it appears) leave a physical corpse behind when killed, thus the poem by Ta'abbata Sharran:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I spent the night leaning on her, waiting for the morning to see what I caught.  Then I found two eyes in an ugly head, similar to the head of a cat with a forked tongue.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Si'lah - The difference between this and the former is not clear to me.  They seem to be more sneaky and clever.  A story exists of a one marrying and bearing human children.  Possible other differences may be that they are active during the day, instead of at night, or that the Se'lah is female, and the Ghūl male.  neither seems to be universally respected though.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Shiqq - A man with only half of a body, and will beat a human to death if encountered.  Again, from Al-Jāḥiẓ:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There, a shiqq appeared to him.  He had only one hand, one eye, one leg.  They recited poetry to each other, then they hit each other, and both of them fell dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Shaytān - They are noted for being smart, cunning and powerful.  And generally rebellious.  May or may not be a loan word from Hebrew, but still not necessarily evil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - ʻIfrīt, Qutrub and Mārid - Not well-known in pre-islamic time." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="667" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="40" RevisionGUID="46e0a39e-7dd0-464a-9641-f77f6d9e1544" CreationDate="2015-04-29T21:56:49.923" UserId="29" Comment="added 16 characters in body" Text="As someone has already commented, the confusion is between Aegeus and Poseidon. This question does not have many alternate interpretations, it's just that it's never made clear, who the father of Theseus is. In [Wikipedia][1] the double paternity is addressed:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Still **without a male heir**, Aegeus asked the oracle at Delphi for advice. Her cryptic words were &quot;Do not loosen the bulging mouth of the wineskin until you have reached the height of Athens, lest you die of grief.&quot; (...) This puzzling oracle forced Aegeus to visit Pittheus, king of Troezen, who was famous for his wisdom and skill at expounding oracles. Pittheus understood the prophecy and **introduced Aegeus to his daughter**, Aethra, when Aegeus was drunk. But following the instructions of Athena in a dream, **Aethra** left the sleeping Aegeus and waded across to the island of Sphairia (...) and **was possessed by the sea god in the night**. The mix gave Theseus a combination of divine as well as mortal characteristics in his nature;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Greek version of Wikipedia, it's made clear that Aethra did sleep with Aegeus at night.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theseus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="668" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="208" RevisionGUID="48959181-50c5-4246-b79f-5bfe26cd1d4c" CreationDate="2015-04-29T22:06:43.337" UserId="51" Text="[Wikipedia][1] reads:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He also created the Labyrinth on Crete, in which the Minotaur (part man, part bull) was kept.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However what was the main purpose of the Labyrinth being built?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I guess this has been mentioned by Homer. Or maybe there some other stories which describes it?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daedalus#The_Labyrinth" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="669" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="208" RevisionGUID="48959181-50c5-4246-b79f-5bfe26cd1d4c" CreationDate="2015-04-29T22:06:43.337" UserId="51" Text="What was the purpose of the Labyrinth built by Daedalus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="670" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="208" RevisionGUID="48959181-50c5-4246-b79f-5bfe26cd1d4c" CreationDate="2015-04-29T22:06:43.337" UserId="51" Text="|daedalus|homer|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="671" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="198" RevisionGUID="947b4e44-2609-4161-981c-1276f3cbb5d8" CreationDate="2015-04-29T22:22:02.427" UserId="36" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body" Text="###[Loki][1] is an anomaly, [his parents][2] were a giant, Fárbauti, and a goddess (or possibly a giantess, we don't know for sure) Laufey.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_(I can't find any decent images of either Fárbauti or Laufey)_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Loki was originally considered a fire deity, before becoming the trickster we know him as. Farbauti means 'fierce strike' and Laufey means 'pine needles'. So his birth was the result of lightening striking 'pine needles', or the forest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you say, he is indeed a shapeshifter, in fact he is the [_mother_][3] of Odin's horse [Sleipnir][4], whom he gave birth to after shapshifting into a mare and breeding with [Svaðilfari][5] .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But in his _normal_ form, he also regularly mated with Asgardians and [giants][6], the offspring of these pairings were all manner of creatures :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Fenrir][7], who kills Odin during the events of Ragnarök&#xD;&#xA; - [Jormungandar][8], whom is so large his body emcompasses the entire planet&#xD;&#xA; - [Hel][9], the half dead goddess&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It really seems as if Loki is a shapeshifter in the truest sense of the word and takes whatever form suites him best at the time. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/the-aesir-gods-and-goddesses/loki/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://loki-in-myth.tumblr.com/post/29634916739/creation-to-lokis-conception&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://norse-mythology.org/tales/the-fortification-of-asgard/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/others/sleipnir/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/mythology/myths/text/wall_of_asgard.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://feminismandreligion.com/2012/08/22/angrboda-her-children-and-our-shadow-selves-by-deanne-quarrie/&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/209/0/9/FENRIR_by_pamansazz.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.google.ie/search?q=jormungand%20norse%20mythology&amp;newwindow=1&amp;es_sm=93&amp;biw=944&amp;bih=961&amp;source=lnms&amp;tbm=isch&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=LzxBVa6yLMGc7gbEiIGgDQ&amp;ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ#imgrc=bupFnDDs4975RM%253A%3BHsTzGbi-deohiM%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fs-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com%252Foriginals%252F03%252F0f%252Fdf%252F030fdfc2008d1119149d04e136bd9963.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fpixshark.com%252Fnorse-mythology-jormungand.htm%3B900%3B738&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-aswvRluFlZA/TtpiGeAZCDI/AAAAAAAAAno/GCO3NMuhE_4/s1600/Hel%2Bpost.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="673" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="209" RevisionGUID="5ecdc4a9-6cea-48be-b7ad-3643f4aad280" CreationDate="2015-04-29T23:30:13.817" UserId="42" Text="The source of the claim of twelve great gods comes from a book titled &quot;The Chaldean Account of Genesis&quot; by George Smith, written in 1876.  You can see the list in Chapter 4, here:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://wisdomlib.org/mesopotamian/book/the-chaldean-account-of-genesis/d/doc2816.html  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm not really sure whether I buy the &quot;twelve great gods&quot; claim entirely, but nevermind that.  I'll call it plausible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In some remote age there appear to have been three great cities in the country, Erech, Eridu, and Nipur, and their divinities Anu, Hea, and Bel were considered the &quot;great gods&quot; of the country. Subsequent changes led to the decline of these cities, but their deities still retained their position at the head of the Babylonian system.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Smith claims that gods became &quot;great&quot; as a function of the growth of their cities, so the list of great gods would grow naturally as cities rise and fall.  Which leads, once again, to the number twelve is likely coincidental.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More recent resources have claimed a pantheon of 7 &quot;gods who decree&quot; and 50 &quot;great gods&quot; (from [&quot;The Sumerians. Their History, Culture and Character&quot;](https://books.google.com/books?id=iY9xp4pLp88C&amp;pg=PA115&amp;lpg=PA115&amp;dq=%22seven+gods+who+decree%22&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=AjWob0mkNY&amp;sig=UdtT1PywbOER9D6n2t5qWwG6zQ0&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=BGRBVY7eLYHpoATap4CoBQ&amp;ved=0CCIQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&amp;q=%22seven%20gods%20who%20decree%22&amp;f=false), by Samuel Noah Kramer, 1963)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="674" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="210" RevisionGUID="6094ed51-438a-4172-9977-e52876f56307" CreationDate="2015-04-29T23:52:55.080" UserId="139" Text="Sisyphus punishment, to roll a rock on top of a moutain forever, is said to have been given because of his trickery with Thanatos. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, it seems that the reason behind this punishment was not explicitely stated : [French Wikipedia](http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphe) states on the subject this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Toutefois, Homère ne faisait pas mention de la raison de ce châtiment. Certaines traditions le justifient par la réputation de brigand et de malfaiteur que Sisyphe avait acquise de son vivant.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; However, Homer did not mention the reason of the punishment. Certain traditions justify it by [Sisyphus's] reputation of a criminal and wrongdoer that [he] has developed during his life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So **what was the reason behind the punishment?** And what is **the source behind the reason being the trickery with Thanatos**, as explained in the English Wikipedia?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="675" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="210" RevisionGUID="6094ed51-438a-4172-9977-e52876f56307" CreationDate="2015-04-29T23:52:55.080" UserId="139" Text="What was the definitive reason behind Sisyphus punishment?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="676" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="210" RevisionGUID="6094ed51-438a-4172-9977-e52876f56307" CreationDate="2015-04-29T23:52:55.080" UserId="139" Text="|greek|homer|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="677" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="211" RevisionGUID="40e7acf5-9b50-4f60-9688-17494b13cd20" CreationDate="2015-04-30T00:01:55.653" UserId="96" Text="It was built specifically as a prison for the minotaur.  See [this article](http://www.ancient.eu/Labyrinth/)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most famous labyrinth is found in Greek mythology: Designed by Daedalus for King Minos of Knossos to contain the ferocious Minotaur (a half-man and half-bull monster). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'd elaborate further but there's not much more to say that could add value to the answer." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="678" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="211" RevisionGUID="05c179ee-82b4-4d9d-a147-1fa66b0ffe8d" CreationDate="2015-04-30T00:14:00.967" UserId="96" Comment="added 7 characters in body" Text="It was built specifically as a prison for the minotaur.  See [this article](http://www.ancient.eu/Labyrinth/)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The most famous labyrinth is found in Greek mythology: Designed by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Daedalus for King Minos of Knossos to contain the ferocious Minotaur&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (a half-man and half-bull monster).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'd elaborate further but there's not much more to say that could add value to the answer." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="679" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="212" RevisionGUID="5bfd5c9e-74ca-4fda-a248-affbe0d12f68" CreationDate="2015-04-30T00:29:46.477" UserId="108" Text="He Meant Thor&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The report by Tacitus was indeed a case of [*interpretatio graeca*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretatio_graeca) at work. As the Austrian historian [Herwig Wolfram](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herwig_Wolfram) writes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thor must have been swinging his hammer as the god Donar (&quot;the Thunderer&quot;) of the West Germanic peoples already during the imperial period, **since Tacitus equated him with Hercules.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Wolfram, Herwig. *The Roman Empire and Its Germanic Peoples*. University of California Press, 1997.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This seems to be the opinion shared by most scholars, such as: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tacitus speaks of a Germanic silva Herculi sacra, i.e. a &quot;forest sacred to Hercules&quot; by which is meant the Germanic god Þórr.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Snyder, William H. *Time, Being, and Soul in the Oldest Sanskrit Sources.* Global Academic Publishing, 2001.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Þórr being of course [Thor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor), and:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tacitus, who claims that the highest god among the Germanic tribes was Mercury, followed by Hercules ... in the case of Hercules, however, the Roman interpretation must have meant Thor.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Murdoch, Brian, and Malcolm Kevin Read, eds. *Early Germanic Literature and Culture*. Vol. 1. Boydell &amp; Brewer, 2004.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But There Was Hercules Magusanus&#xD;&#xA;-----------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While Tacitus meant Thor, there *was* a following for the syncretic deity Hercules Magusanus in [Germania (Inferior)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germania_Inferior). This *kind of* qualifies as a cult of Hercules perhaps.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Significant here is the epigraphic evidence for the cult of Hercules Magusanus. Hercules Magusanus is a god with a double name, a Roman and an indigenous one respectively, and we should regard him as a syncretism of the Roman Hercules with Magusanus, a local deity or hero. The cult was based in Germania Inferior, particularly the Batavian region, as attested to by the distribution of votive inscriptions and the presence of some monumental sanctuaries that can be ascribed to this deity.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Roymans, Nico. *Ethnic Identity and Imperial Power: The Batavians in the Early Roman Empire*. Vol. 10. Amsterdam University Press, 2004. &lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are enough attestations for the worship of this god, that he is thought to be the chief deity of the [Batavians](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batavi_%28Germanic_tribe%29).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hercules Magusanus, who was probably the chief deity of the Batavians. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Nicolay, Johan. Armed Batavians. Amsterdam University Press, 2007.&lt;/sub&gt;**" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="680" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="213" RevisionGUID="4e0852c5-1f46-430c-9ba2-315e6ffdbdc5" CreationDate="2015-04-30T00:29:53.710" UserId="91" Text="Both the [kitsune][1] and [huli jing][2] are &quot;fox spirits&quot; with 9 tails, tricksters that can shapeshift into, or possess, young women.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- One famous kitsune appears in the [true story][3] of [Hideyoshi][4] writing a letter threatening to kill all foxes in Japan unless the kitsune ceases to possess one of his servants.&#xD;&#xA;- Perhaps the most well-known huli jing is the historical [Daji][5], consort of King Zhou and blamed for the fall of the Shang dynasty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems that they either have a common origin or are greatly influenced by each other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, according to some scholars, the kitsune may have been native to Japan, only acquiring its negative qualities from Chinese folklore later. In particular, kitsune are strongly related to the *kami* [Inari][6], whereas huli jing are not strongly associated with any god in particular. From Wikipedia:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Japanese folklorist Kiyoshi Nozaki argues that the Japanese regarded kitsune positively as early as the 4th century A.D.; the only things imported from China or Korea were the kitsune's negative attributes. He states that, according to a 16th-century book of records called the Nihon Ryakki, foxes and human beings lived close together in ancient Japan, and he contends that indigenous legends about the creatures arose as a result. Inari scholar Karen Smyers notes that the idea of the fox as seductress and the connection of the fox myths to Buddhism were introduced into Japanese folklore through similar Chinese stories, but she maintains that some fox stories contain elements unique to Japan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How much support is there for their separate origins? What is the relationship between these two mythical creatures?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsune&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huli_jing&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://history.stackexchange.com/q/5933/2957&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyotomi_Hideyoshi&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daji&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inari_%C5%8Ckami" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="681" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="213" RevisionGUID="4e0852c5-1f46-430c-9ba2-315e6ffdbdc5" CreationDate="2015-04-30T00:29:53.710" UserId="91" Text="Are Kitsune and Huli jing the same?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="682" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="213" RevisionGUID="4e0852c5-1f46-430c-9ba2-315e6ffdbdc5" CreationDate="2015-04-30T00:29:53.710" UserId="91" Text="|mythical-creatures|japanese|chinese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="683" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="210" RevisionGUID="d1c350da-248d-40ff-b1ce-95535d92f49f" CreationDate="2015-04-30T00:44:47.280" UserId="29" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="Sisyphus punishment, to roll a rock on top of a moutain forever, is said to have been given because of his trickery with Thanatos. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, it seems that the reason behind this punishment was not explicitely stated : [French Wikipedia](http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphe) states on the subject this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Toutefois, Homère ne faisait pas mention de la raison de ce châtiment. Certaines traditions le justifient par la réputation de brigand et de malfaiteur que Sisyphe avait acquise de son vivant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; However, Homer did not mention the reason of the punishment. Certain traditions justify it by [Sisyphus's] reputation of a criminal and wrongdoer that [he] has developed during his life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So **what was the reason behind the punishment?** And what is **the source behind the reason being the trickery with Thanatos**, as explained in the English Wikipedia?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="684" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="214" RevisionGUID="a2f61055-2d8f-4ab0-88e9-e145b5f67adb" CreationDate="2015-04-30T01:08:09.637" UserId="38" Text="Homer describes Sisyphus as the *craftiest* of men; he was a generally deceitful guy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus, *Library* writes of one of his apparently many duplicities:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  This punishment he endures for the sake of Aegina, daughter of Asopus; for when Zeus had secretly carried her off, Sisyphus is said to have betrayed the secret to Asopus, who was looking for her. &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="685" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="215" RevisionGUID="b61d1f2a-15bb-452b-8de9-45c4b138f3b0" CreationDate="2015-04-30T01:39:54.857" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="In the Mayan myth Popol Vuh, the sport &quot;ball&quot; seems to play a special role in the story. For example, playing ball seems to have indicated a lack of respect in this section of the story:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As for One Hunahpu and Seven Hunahpu, they would merely play dice and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ball everyday. The four of them would pair off to oppose each other.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; When they gathered together to play in the ballcourt, the Falcon would&#xD;&#xA;&gt; arrive to watch over them. This Falcon was the messenger of Huracan,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Youngest Thunderbolt, and Sudden Thunderbolt. The face of the earth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was not far for him. Nor was Xibalba [the underworld] far for him. In an instant, he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; could return again to the sky with Huracan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now it was on the path leading to Xibalba where they played ball. Thus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the lords of Xibalba, One Death and Seven Death, heard them:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; “What is happening on the surface of the earth? They are just stomping&#xD;&#xA;&gt; about and shouting. May they be summoned here therefore. They shall&#xD;&#xA;&gt; come to play ball, and we shall defeat them. They have simply failed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to honor us. They have neither honor nor respect. Certainly they act&#xD;&#xA;&gt; arrogantly here over our heads,” said therefore all those of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Xibalba.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([the online version of Allen J. Christenson's translation][1])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But later in the story, to punish the denizens of Xibalba, a different set of heroes proclaim that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; you shall be brought low and shall no longer be allowed to play ball.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Nicholson, Irene. *Mexican and Central American Mythology*, Page 61.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I may not be reading the story closely enough, but I feel like there's some sort of context that I'm missing out on. Could someone please elaborate on what role the sport ball plays in the Popol Vuh?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.mesoweb.com/publications/christenson/popolvuh.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="686" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="215" RevisionGUID="b61d1f2a-15bb-452b-8de9-45c4b138f3b0" CreationDate="2015-04-30T01:39:54.857" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="What is the significance of the sport ball in the popol vuh?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="687" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="215" RevisionGUID="b61d1f2a-15bb-452b-8de9-45c4b138f3b0" CreationDate="2015-04-30T01:39:54.857" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="|maya|popol-vuh|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="688" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="215" RevisionGUID="f80d19fd-0a02-4ed3-ae3a-ebf123401393" CreationDate="2015-04-30T01:46:17.387" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="capitalization" Text="What is the significance of the sport ball in the Popol Vuh?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="689" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="74" RevisionGUID="29b30294-5c06-4739-9c51-a33154e56c83" CreationDate="2015-04-30T01:46:42.447" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="tags" Text="|arthurian|welsh|mabinogion|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="691" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="214" RevisionGUID="0bda3148-fe7a-4583-b7f7-bbce6471a4cd" CreationDate="2015-04-30T02:21:07.993" UserId="38" Comment="added 1434 characters in body" Text="Homer describes Sisyphus as the *craftiest* of men; he was a generally deceitful guy. However Homer gives no reason for his punishment, no list of crimes and so we must look to other Classical writers. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The myth featuring Sisyphus and Thanatos comes from a fragment by Aeschylus titled *[Sisyphus the Stone-Roller][1]*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sisyphus bound Death fast, so that men ceased to die, until Ares came to the rescue, released Death, and gave Sisyphus into his power. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus, *Library* writes of one of his apparently many duplicities:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  This punishment he endures for the sake of Aegina, daughter of Asopus; for when Zeus had secretly carried her off, Sisyphus is said to have betrayed the secret to Asopus, who was looking for her. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyginus in his *[Fabulae][2]* gives the following reason :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sisyphus and Salmoneus, sons of Aeolus, hated each other. Sisyphus asked Apollo how he might kill his enemy, meaning his brother, and the answer was given that if he had children from the embrace of Tryo, daughter of his brother Salmoneus, they would avenge him. When Sisyphus followed this advice, two sons were born, but their mother slew them when she learned of the prophecy. But when Sisyphus found out, ecause of his impiety he now, it is said, in the Land of the Dead rolls a stone... &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While [Plutarch writes][3]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Anticleia, while yet a virgin, was violated by Sisyphus and conceived Odysseus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Euripides also supports][4] this version of Odysseus's true parentage). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/AeschylusFragments2.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusFabulae2.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:2008.01.0216:section=43&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0094%3Acard%3D82" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="692" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="216" RevisionGUID="9139863d-4e63-4af6-aa3d-673281479aff" CreationDate="2015-04-30T02:37:26.040" UserDisplayName="user93" Text="I'm having trouble understanding how the Roman mythology revolves around or is associated with the concept of [Genius][1]. From what I understand, every thing has a spirit or soul, that can be venerated in some way. This was the thought that eventually led to the Imperial Cult, where the Emperor himself was not actually worshiped, but it was his Genius.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If I were to hazard to guess, I would say that the Genii came first. People worshiped the sky, which eventually became Jupiter, the god of the sky. But by the time we get to 30 BC with the advent of the Imperial Cult, they are still talking about it. So they didn't abandon it as a primitive understanding of the gods, but embraced it as fundamental to divinity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So around 30 BC, at the advent of the Imperial Cult, how did the Romans at this time typically understand how the Genii fit into the mythology?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;___&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some side questions spawn out of this so here they are out of curiosity, not expectation that they should be answered:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Doesn't this just make Roman Mythology a kind of pantheism?&#xD;&#xA;2. Where there different theologies based on this concept that asserted that Jupiter et al. didn't actually exist like the myths portrayed?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genius_%28mythology%29" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="693" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="216" RevisionGUID="9139863d-4e63-4af6-aa3d-673281479aff" CreationDate="2015-04-30T02:37:26.040" UserDisplayName="user93" Text="How does the Genius concept fit into the Roman Mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="694" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="216" RevisionGUID="9139863d-4e63-4af6-aa3d-673281479aff" CreationDate="2015-04-30T02:37:26.040" UserDisplayName="user93" Text="|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="696" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="217" RevisionGUID="2b0e90b5-2ccd-42ed-b619-41bfabf49286" CreationDate="2015-04-30T03:57:29.067" UserId="91" Text="Among East Asian / Confucian empires (China and Vietnam, maybe others), emperors ruled under a philosophical concept known as [Mandate of Heaven][1] - that is, heaven will grant a specific ruler the right of government based on virtue, and natural disasters were seen as signs of heaven's displeasure with the current ruler. Under this belief system, the emperor has the title of [Son of Heaven][2] (天子).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unlike Japanese emperors that also have the same title (*tenshi*) who are literally descended from [Amaterasu][3], there is no lineage in the Chinese system, only a title anointed by heaven. But who or what is &quot;heaven&quot;? Is it an actual god, like the [supreme god Shangdi][4]? The Celestial Bureaucracy as a whole - and if so, are there gods within the &quot;mandate&quot; system, such as judges, bringers of natural disasters and so on? Or some other concept of [&quot;heaven&quot;][5] entirely?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandate_of_Heaven&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_Heaven&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amaterasu&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/138/91&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tian" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="697" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="217" RevisionGUID="2b0e90b5-2ccd-42ed-b619-41bfabf49286" CreationDate="2015-04-30T03:57:29.067" UserId="91" Text="Son of Heaven: who is the father/mother?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="698" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="217" RevisionGUID="2b0e90b5-2ccd-42ed-b619-41bfabf49286" CreationDate="2015-04-30T03:57:29.067" UserId="91" Text="|chinese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="702" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="172" RevisionGUID="8a80c866-2739-4329-9289-f3d31bdc8230" CreationDate="2015-04-30T04:54:12.643" UserId="-1" Comment="102" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:62,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Christofian&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:42,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;femtoRgon&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:93,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;fredsbend&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:18,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;El'endia Starman&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:58,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Vixen Populi&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="703" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="218" RevisionGUID="b5e9ded8-7399-4630-8818-c4a874847744" CreationDate="2015-04-30T05:12:47.137" UserId="110" Text="In Greek mythology there was this ancient robot like (or god like) creature named Talos who was responsible for protecting Crete. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Image above we can see depicted the death of Talos. But who killed him? How and why was he murdered?&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Q66aS.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="704" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="218" RevisionGUID="b5e9ded8-7399-4630-8818-c4a874847744" CreationDate="2015-04-30T05:12:47.137" UserId="110" Text="How and why was Talos killed?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="705" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="218" RevisionGUID="b5e9ded8-7399-4630-8818-c4a874847744" CreationDate="2015-04-30T05:12:47.137" UserId="110" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="706" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="95" RevisionGUID="60196772-1553-4448-8a80-e4060de8f972" CreationDate="2015-04-30T05:16:56.870" UserId="85" Comment="deleted 81 characters in body" Text="I've read that when she was young she was called Core (maiden), and after she was kidnapped she changed her name to Persephone (bringer of destruction/death).  &#xD;&#xA;I see it as a sort of coming of age thing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is from the book (graphic novel, actually) *Hades : Lord of the Dead* by George O'Connor. O’Connor draws from primary documents to reconstruct and retell classic Greek myths.  &#xD;&#xA;It's possible that my book dramatized that a bit and she didn't necessarily choose it herself in the original myths." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="707" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="219" RevisionGUID="a55b4ee5-ab28-46f0-990e-ca847d197102" CreationDate="2015-04-30T05:17:43.647" UserId="110" Text="Roman and Greek mythologies and religions are intertwined and this because of the time Greece send occupied by the Roman empire. But are there any (atleast) two different cultures have similarities in their mythologies but have no know interactions with which they could have transferred their mythologies to each other?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="708" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="219" RevisionGUID="a55b4ee5-ab28-46f0-990e-ca847d197102" CreationDate="2015-04-30T05:17:43.647" UserId="110" Text="Are there any cultures with no known interactions that have notable similarities in their creation myths?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="709" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="219" RevisionGUID="a55b4ee5-ab28-46f0-990e-ca847d197102" CreationDate="2015-04-30T05:17:43.647" UserId="110" Text="|cross-mythology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="710" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="135" RevisionGUID="ce36a1f4-6518-475f-befa-a08ce5f16742" CreationDate="2015-04-30T05:23:41.460" UserId="-1" Comment="102" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:18,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;El'endia Starman&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:29,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;naltipar&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:138,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;King Shimkus&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:93,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;fredsbend&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:79,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ero Sɘnnin&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="711" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="188" RevisionGUID="9cde22e6-02bb-4107-9311-313ed6a0a62e" CreationDate="2015-04-30T05:28:43.437" UserId="79" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="The Bull of heaven was sent to earth by the goddess Ishtar, to destroy Gilgamesh. But Gilgamesh thwarts the bull and kills it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are two versions of the incidents that happened next.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From [Sky Script](http://www.skyscript.co.uk/taurus_myth.html):&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Gilgamesh triumphed over the Bull, **which was then placed in the heavens**, but for his sacrilege the gods declared that the life of his best friend, Enkidu, should be taken as a forfeit. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This particular extract indicates that, after its death, the bull rose to the heavens, receiving a place in there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The other version, from [Sydney Observatory](http://www.sydneyobservatory.com.au/2014/dr-pryke-considers-taurus-and-the-bull-of-heaven-in-mesopotamian-myth-and-astronomy/):&#xD;&#xA;&gt;However, Gilgamesh is able to use his heroic strength to slay the giant creature, and **offers its heart to the Mesopotamian sun god, Shamash**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This extract, tells that it was Gilgamesh who presented the bull to the Sun god. But it is not clearly mentioned whether it was Shamash or some other being, who placed the bull of heaven as the constellation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hence from both cases, it is certain that it was indeed the bull of heaven which became the constellation known as Taurus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="712" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="136" RevisionGUID="8a9066e0-44b1-462f-bc9a-93297237fc79" CreationDate="2015-04-30T05:31:42.933" UserId="108" Comment="added 49 characters in body" Text="**Common Ancestry**&#xD;&#xA;-------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Both the Ancient Greeks and Romans were descended from [Proto-Indo-Europeans](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans).** While the two groups had diverged, they continued to share remnants of a common language and other features including mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most obvious sign of this is the chief deities of their respective pantheons: [Zeus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus) and [Jupiter](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_(mythology)): both derive from the Proto-Indo-European sky deity [***Dyēus ph&lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt;ter**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyeus). Their counterparts could be found in various Indo-European mythologies, including the Germanic [Týr](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%BDr), the Baltic [Dievas](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dievas), and the Vedic [Dyaus Pita](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyaus_Pita).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, Greek and Roman mythologies exhibit great similarities due to them being cousins.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Syncretism**&#xD;&#xA;--------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Furthermore, from the earliest period of the Republic, Roman religious belief had [adopted](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syncretism) Greek elements. **This begun extremely early, and far predates the Roman conquest of Greece.** One example is [Apollo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo#Roman_Apollo), who was directly adopted into the Roman pantheon. [A temple for him](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Apollo_Sosianus) was erected in Rome as early as 431 BC, long before the [Romans conquered Greece in 141 BC](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Corinth_(146_BC)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One way in which Greek beliefs were transmitted to the early Romans was via the [Etruscans](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_civilization). After their conquest by the Roman Republic, elements from the Etruscan belief system were integrated into classical Roman culture. In this way, the Etruscans bequeathed notable Greek influence on their own mythology to the Romans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For instance, the Etruscan [Menrva](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menrva) passed on influences from the Greek [Athena](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athena) to the Roman [Minerva](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minerva). Another example is [Mercury](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_(mythology)), who inherited traits of the Greek [Hermes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes) from the Etruscan [Turms](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turms). Both long predates the Roman mastery of Greece; Mercury had a temple on [Aventine](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aventine_Hill) as early as 495 BC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is not accurate to say that Rome inherited Greek religions because she had &quot;little mythology&quot; when she conquered Greece, although Greek culture did went on to be highly influential on Rome (&quot;*Captive Greece captured her rude conqueror*&quot;)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="713" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="220" RevisionGUID="dc576c08-86f8-40fb-a773-5a0cb5019e14" CreationDate="2015-04-30T05:32:26.670" UserId="65" Text="According to [Ancient Origins][1] Talos is:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to the legends, Talos was not a human being but a creature&#xD;&#xA;&gt; made by Zeus himself. Another version of the myth attributes his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; creation to Hephaestus, the god of fire and iron. In other versions,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Talos was the son of Cres and the god Hephaestus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It goes on to say that&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Talos protected Crete for many years until he was finally defeated by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jason and the Argonauts, and not by any kind of weapon, of course, but&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by trickery. When Jason and the Argonauts approached Crete, Medea, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sorceress, occupied Talos by talking to him and using spells,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; persuading him to remove the nails from his ankles. Thus the liquid&#xD;&#xA;&gt; metal spilled out and Talos died.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So you could say that Talos bled to death. He was constucted out of metal and the blood in his veins was also liquid metal. Without it Talos died.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends/talos-crete-00157" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="714" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="212" RevisionGUID="b4a3b6c1-8844-4a3f-a654-c82237d1703d" CreationDate="2015-04-30T05:34:42.410" UserId="108" Comment="added 46 characters in body" Text="He Meant Thor&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The report by Tacitus was indeed a case of [*interpretatio graeca*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretatio_graeca) at work. As the Austrian historian [Herwig Wolfram](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herwig_Wolfram) writes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thor must have been swinging his hammer as the god Donar (&quot;the Thunderer&quot;) of the West Germanic peoples already during the imperial period, **since Tacitus equated him with Hercules.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Wolfram, Herwig. *The Roman Empire and Its Germanic Peoples*. University of California Press, 1997.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This seems to be the opinion shared by most scholars, such as: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tacitus speaks of a Germanic silva Herculi sacra, i.e. a &quot;forest sacred to Hercules&quot; by which is meant the Germanic god Þórr.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Snyder, William H. *Time, Being, and Soul in the Oldest Sanskrit Sources.* Global Academic Publishing, 2001.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Þórr being of course [Thor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor), and:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tacitus, who claims that the highest god among the Germanic tribes was Mercury, followed by Hercules ... in the case of Hercules, however, the Roman interpretation must have meant Thor.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Murdoch, Brian, and Malcolm Kevin Read, eds. *Early Germanic Literature and Culture*. Vol. 1. Boydell &amp; Brewer, 2004.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But There Was Hercules Magusanus&#xD;&#xA;-----------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While Tacitus meant Thor, there *was* a following for the syncretic deity Hercules Magusanus in [Germania (Inferior)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germania_Inferior). This *kind of* qualifies as a cult of Hercules perhaps.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Significant here is the epigraphic evidence for the cult of Hercules Magusanus. Hercules Magusanus is a god with a double name, a Roman and an indigenous one respectively, and we should regard him as a syncretism of the Roman Hercules with Magusanus, a local deity or hero. The cult was based in Germania Inferior, particularly the Batavian region, as attested to by the distribution of votive inscriptions and the presence of some monumental sanctuaries that can be ascribed to this deity.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Roymans, Nico. *Ethnic Identity and Imperial Power: The Batavians in the Early Roman Empire*. Vol. 10. Amsterdam University Press, 2004. &lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are enough attestations for the worship of this god, especially in the area of modern Netherlands, that he is thought to be the chief deity of the [Batavians](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batavi_%28Germanic_tribe%29).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hercules Magusanus, who was probably the chief deity of the Batavians. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Nicolay, Johan. Armed Batavians. Amsterdam University Press, 2007.&lt;/sub&gt;**" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="715" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="221" RevisionGUID="da2d668b-f86c-48fe-8384-c0696a1ceed1" CreationDate="2015-04-30T05:37:36.517" UserId="65" Text="Based on excavation and digs we have currently found over 560 deities. However scientist believe that there could be as many as 750.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Bottéro's book titled: *Religion in Ancient Mesopotamia* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A Sumerian list of around 560 deities that did this was uncovered at&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Fâra and Tell Abû Ṣalābīkh and dated to circa 2600 BCE, ranking five&#xD;&#xA;&gt; primary deities as being of particular importance." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="717" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="163" RevisionGUID="6277bf93-73d5-466d-b355-22554e77e932" CreationDate="2015-04-30T05:42:05.537" UserId="61" Comment="Formatting, proofing" Text="How did Dionysus/Bacchus become the central figure of Orphism, given the relatively modest importance he has in classical Greek and Roman mythology?&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;From a semi-god of Wine in the latter, he becomes in the former the central character of a metempsychosis-centered, mystical cult prescribing an &quot;ascetic&quot;(!) way of life.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Ovid's Metamorphosis he is even depicted as quite a powerful and vengeful god.  &#xD;&#xA;There seems to be quite a mismatch between both visions of the supposedly same character: is it possible the Orphic cult was in fact worshiping another imported character, foreign to the Greek/Roman pantheon, that was later assimilated to Dionysus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="718" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="163" RevisionGUID="6277bf93-73d5-466d-b355-22554e77e932" CreationDate="2015-04-30T05:42:05.537" Comment="Proposed by 61 approved by 29, 111 edit id of 33" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="719" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="222" RevisionGUID="c6d46a08-d5bc-42d3-972b-91455316d3eb" CreationDate="2015-04-30T05:42:57.417" UserId="65" Text="Epona was a protector goddess and also the goddess of fertility and was welcomed into many homesteads at the time because she just about covered everything. The Romans believed that they should never anger the gods and so when a new god surfaced that had a high likability like Epona, the Romans took them in.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, Epona wasn't highly worshiped by Roman Soldiers because she didn't hold powers that the soldiers requested. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Epona was only worshiped by mothers and farmers and was probably only worshiped in the Northern parts of the Roman Empire." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="720" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="140" RevisionGUID="6d174dc2-7d3c-4598-94b9-b9cfd83c64f8" CreationDate="2015-04-30T05:45:01.257" UserId="79" Comment="edited tags" Text="|hindu|reference-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="721" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="223" RevisionGUID="a4d370bf-c2da-4dfd-9721-80fbdae55198" CreationDate="2015-04-30T05:49:12.370" UserId="65" Text="The Kraken is a single entity. However in modern times it became a more loose term having sailors during the 1500-1700s calling giant squids &quot;Krakens&quot;. The possibility of so many sightings led people to believe that this was a race.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Norse mythology named the beast Kraken based on the word Krake means &quot;a twisted animal&quot; while Krake in German means &quot;Octopus&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Kraken in Norse mythology was definitely a giant squid because octopus was too far south for Norsemen to come into contact with." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="723" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="224" RevisionGUID="31a0a39c-34c0-478d-a16e-76f6c2eb775a" CreationDate="2015-04-30T05:52:46.753" UserId="65" Text="The two are pretty much the same. However leaders of the warriors would go to Valhalla while the regular soldiers/vikings would go to Fólkvangr.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Fólkvangr means field of the host. Host refers to a large sum of people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Valhalla mean &quot;Hall of the slain&quot;. Usually only someone of importance would be slain, a regular man would be killed." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="726" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="225" RevisionGUID="19cf2a95-d7c3-48e2-ad2b-6e49db1b8907" CreationDate="2015-04-30T06:55:22.307" UserId="144" Text="In [Age of Mythology][1], there is a **lot** of fairly accurate background info on all the Gods and lore present in the game.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Obviously the story itself is fabricated, but is based around accurate lore. It's woven around events such as the siege of Troy, the death (and reincarnation) of Osiris, Ragnarok and the destruction of Thor's Hammer and even Odysseus's treacherous journey home from Troy is written in.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So I'm wondering whether Poseidon's jealousy of Zeus (the main reason behind his attempts to free the Titans) was actually included in his lore, or whether it was just a plot device of this game?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="727" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="225" RevisionGUID="19cf2a95-d7c3-48e2-ad2b-6e49db1b8907" CreationDate="2015-04-30T06:55:22.307" UserId="144" Text="Was Poseidon actually jealous of Zeus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="728" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="225" RevisionGUID="19cf2a95-d7c3-48e2-ad2b-6e49db1b8907" CreationDate="2015-04-30T06:55:22.307" UserId="144" Text="|greek|age-of-mythology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="729" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="226" RevisionGUID="c6cc2574-4701-41b1-9230-580e382ffca1" CreationDate="2015-04-30T06:56:13.013" UserId="79" Text="For example, &#xD;&#xA;&gt;In Norse mythology, Ragnarök is a series of **future events**, including a great battle foretold to ultimately result in the death of a number of major figures (including the gods Odin, Thor, Týr, Freyr, Heimdallr, and Loki), the occurrence of various natural disasters, and the subsequent submersion of the world in water. Afterward, the world&#xD;&#xA;will resurface anew and fertile, the surviving and returning gods will meet, and the&#xD;&#xA;world will be repopulated by two human survivors . Ragnarök is an important event in the Norse canon, and has been the subject of scholarly discourse and theory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not wanting to make the question broad, I'm putting it in scope of the Norse mythology and it becomes: **If the events of Ragnarok are set in the future, how is it that it is detailed so greatly at present?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="730" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="226" RevisionGUID="c6cc2574-4701-41b1-9230-580e382ffca1" CreationDate="2015-04-30T06:56:13.013" UserId="79" Text="How are future apolcalyptic events detailed so greatly?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="731" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="226" RevisionGUID="c6cc2574-4701-41b1-9230-580e382ffca1" CreationDate="2015-04-30T06:56:13.013" UserId="79" Text="|norse|apocalypse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="732" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="227" RevisionGUID="4c8ad5e8-5ad6-43cf-bb9f-34e72d1b451f" CreationDate="2015-04-30T07:22:24.650" UserDisplayName="user40" Text="In all the Olympic Pantheon, Athena has always been one of my favourites. She was revered as goddes of many things: she is a warrior, representing the &quot;noble&quot; part of war, but she is also the goddess of &quot;feminine arts&quot;, like weaving.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How come that this goddess is associated with activities so different from one another?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;PS: sorry if I made any mistake writing in English." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="733" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="227" RevisionGUID="4c8ad5e8-5ad6-43cf-bb9f-34e72d1b451f" CreationDate="2015-04-30T07:22:24.650" UserDisplayName="user40" Text="Why is Athena considered the goddess of both fighting and craft skills?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="734" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="227" RevisionGUID="4c8ad5e8-5ad6-43cf-bb9f-34e72d1b451f" CreationDate="2015-04-30T07:22:24.650" UserDisplayName="user40" Text="|greek|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="735" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="198" RevisionGUID="76992ad1-d7f8-44b6-bd90-ab937f766ac0" CreationDate="2015-04-30T07:28:34.080" UserId="36" Comment="added 33 characters in body; deleted 323 characters in body" Text="###[Loki][1] is an anomaly, [his parents][2] were a giant, Fárbauti, and a goddess (or possibly a giantess, we don't know for sure) Laufey.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_(I can't find any decent images of either Fárbauti or Laufey)_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Loki was originally considered a fire deity, before becoming the trickster we know him as. Farbauti means 'fierce strike' and Laufey means 'pine needles'. So his birth was the result of lightening striking 'pine needles', or the forest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you say, he is indeed a shapeshifter, in fact he is the [_mother_][3] of Odin's horse [Sleipnir][4], whom he gave birth to after shapshifting into a mare and breeding with [Svaðilfari][5] .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But in his _normal_ form, he also regularly mated with Asgardians and [giants][6], the offspring of these pairings were all manner of creatures :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Fenrir][7], the great wolf who kills Odin during the events of Ragnarök&#xD;&#xA; - [Jormungandar][8], the great serpent whom is so large his body emcompasses the entire planet&#xD;&#xA; - [Hel][9], the half dead goddess&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It really seems as if Loki is a shapeshifter in the truest sense of the word and takes whatever form suites him best at the time. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/the-aesir-gods-and-goddesses/loki/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://loki-in-myth.tumblr.com/post/29634916739/creation-to-lokis-conception&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://norse-mythology.org/tales/the-fortification-of-asgard/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/others/sleipnir/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/mythology/myths/text/wall_of_asgard.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://feminismandreligion.com/2012/08/22/angrboda-her-children-and-our-shadow-selves-by-deanne-quarrie/&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/209/0/9/FENRIR_by_pamansazz.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://25.media.tumblr.com/2a5f952941bf3e98f4126b0535a7c041/tumblr_ml7s4byGbF1rqbtm2o1_1280.jpg&#xA;  [9]: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-aswvRluFlZA/TtpiGeAZCDI/AAAAAAAAAno/GCO3NMuhE_4/s1600/Hel%2Bpost.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="736" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="219" RevisionGUID="d059faec-392c-4c84-9ae6-98c3ee95c32a" CreationDate="2015-04-30T07:47:27.610" UserId="-1" Comment="104" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:65,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Young Guilo&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:108,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Semaphore&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:79,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ero Sɘnnin&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:144,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Robotnik&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:40,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Lucia Bentivoglio&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="737" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="228" RevisionGUID="51964e2e-a60f-4f0e-a450-7ce6c144e051" CreationDate="2015-04-30T08:05:31.547" UserId="111" Text="In the [Völuspa](http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda/V%C3%B6lusp%C3%A1) (part of the poetic Edda), the tale is told to Odin as a prophecy by a völva who tell him both the story of earth creation and destruction.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [Gylfaginning](http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning) (part of the prose Edda), which quotes extensively the latter, the tale is told by three characters in Ásgard (Hárr, the king, Janhárr and Thridi). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Presumably in the first case it is a vision that the völva had while in the second case the characters are, I think, meant to be omniscient.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Alternatively, an interesting theory is the one argued by Rudolf Simek (in *Lexikon der germanischen Mythologie*), according to which the norse timeline is a palingenesis (i.e. time is cyclical): Ragnarokr being, according to him, a prelude to the creation myth. In this case these events would be set both in the future and in the past, which would explain how the völva and the three characters from Ásgard can recount it as if it already happened. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="738" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="229" RevisionGUID="b7036f50-54dd-43aa-aa5e-ec87701e2ab6" CreationDate="2015-04-30T08:06:16.840" UserId="57" Text="According to the [Argonautica](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argonautica), the primary source for the story of Talos, the bronze automaton died when he accidentaly &quot;grazed his ankle on a pointed crag&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (ll. 1673-1693) Father Zeus, surely great wonder rises in my mind, seeing that dire destruction meets us not from disease and wounds alone, but lo! even from afar, may be, it tortures us! So Talos, for all his frame of bronze, yielded the victory to the might of Medea the sorceress. And as he was heaving massy rocks to stay them from reaching the haven, he grazed his ankle on a pointed crag; and the ichor gushed forth like melted lead; and not long thereafter did he stand towering on the jutting cliff. But even as some huge pine, high up on the mountains, which woodmen have left half hewn through by their sharp axes when they returned from the forest—at first it shivers in the wind by night, then at last snaps at the stump and crashes down; so Talos for a while stood on his tireless feet, swaying to and fro, when at last, all strengthless, fell with a mighty thud. For that night there in Crete the heroes lay; then, just as dawn was growing bright, they built a shrine to Minoan Athena, and drew water and went aboard, so that first of all they might by rowing pass beyond Salmone's height.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Project Gutenberg EBook of The Argonautica, by Apollonius Rhodius](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/830/830-h/830-h.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ichor, the fluid that &quot;gushed forth like melted lead&quot; from Talos' ankle, is the ethereal blood of gods and immortals. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="739" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="229" RevisionGUID="1a567723-13bd-412d-97e7-34160d5efc0f" CreationDate="2015-04-30T08:20:53.577" UserId="57" Comment="added 2328 characters in body" Text="When the Argonauts reached Crete, Talos - the bronze guardian of [Europa](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_%28mythology%29) - managed to push them back to the sea with ease. The Argonauts were desperate for food and water, and Medea decided to use her magic to kill Talos. She &quot;sent forth baneful phantoms&quot; and as Talos was trying to stop them from reaching [Dikti](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dikti) (Europa's hideout) accidentaly &quot;grazed his ankle on a pointed crag&quot;, releasing the [ichor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichor) from his single vein. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's the story, as told in [Argonautica](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argonautica): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (ll. 1638-1653) And Talos, the man of bronze, as he broke off rocks from the hard cliff, stayed them from fastening hawsers to the shore, when they came to the roadstead of Dicte's haven. He was of the stock of bronze, of the men sprung from ash-trees, the last left among the sons of the gods; and the son of Cronos gave him to Europa to be the warder of Crete and to stride round the island thrice a day with his feet of bronze. Now in all the rest of his body and limbs was he fashioned of bronze and invulnerable; but beneath the sinew by his ankle was a blood-red vein; and this, with its issues of life and death, was covered by a thin skin. So the heroes, though outworn with toil, quickly backed their ship from the land in sore dismay. And now far from Crete would they have been borne in wretched plight, distressed both by thirst and pain, had not Medea addressed them as they turned away:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (ll. 1654-1658) &quot;Hearken to me. For I deem that I alone can subdue for you that man, whoever he be, even though his frame be of bronze throughout, unless his life too is everlasting. But be ready to keep your ship here beyond the cast of his stones, till he yield the victory to me.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;(ll. 1659-1672) Thus she spake; and they drew the ship out of range, resting on their oars, waiting to see what plan unlooked for she would bring to pass; and she, holding the fold of her purple robe over her cheeks on each side, mounted on the deck; and Aeson's son took her hand in his and guided her way along the thwarts. And with songs did she propitiate and invoke the Death-spirits, devourers of life, the swift hounds of Hades, who, hovering through all the air, swoop down on the living. Kneeling in supplication, thrice she called on them with songs, and thrice with prayers; and, shaping her soul to mischief, with her hostile glance she bewitched the eyes of Talos, the man of bronze; and her teeth gnashed bitter wrath against him, and she sent forth baneful phantoms in the frenzy of her rage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (ll. 1673-1693) Father Zeus, surely great wonder rises in my mind, seeing that dire destruction meets us not from disease and wounds alone, but lo! even from afar, may be, it tortures us! So Talos, for all his frame of bronze, yielded the victory to the might of Medea the sorceress. And as he was heaving massy rocks to stay them from reaching the haven, he grazed his ankle on a pointed crag; and the ichor gushed forth like melted lead; and not long thereafter did he stand towering on the jutting cliff. But even as some huge pine, high up on the mountains, which woodmen have left half hewn through by their sharp axes when they returned from the forest—at first it shivers in the wind by night, then at last snaps at the stump and crashes down; so Talos for a while stood on his tireless feet, swaying to and fro, when at last, all strengthless, fell with a mighty thud. For that night there in Crete the heroes lay; then, just as dawn was growing bright, they built a shrine to Minoan Athena, and drew water and went aboard, so that first of all they might by rowing pass beyond Salmone's height.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Project Gutenberg EBook of The Argonautica, by Apollonius Rhodius](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/830/830-h/830-h.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="740" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="229" RevisionGUID="cb9517d9-e77f-409d-86dc-af3083a615a4" CreationDate="2015-04-30T08:27:36.873" UserId="57" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="When the Argonauts reached Crete, Talos - the bronze guardian of [Europa](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_%28mythology%29) - managed to push them back to the sea with ease. The Argonauts were desperate for food and water, and Medea decided to use her magic to kill Talos. She &quot;sent forth baneful phantoms&quot; and as Talos was trying to stop them from reaching [Dikti](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dikti) (Europa's hideout), he accidentaly &quot;grazed his ankle on a pointed crag&quot;, releasing the [ichor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichor) from his single vein. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's the story, as told in [Argonautica](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argonautica): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (ll. 1638-1653) And Talos, the man of bronze, as he broke off rocks from the hard cliff, stayed them from fastening hawsers to the shore, when they came to the roadstead of Dicte's haven. He was of the stock of bronze, of the men sprung from ash-trees, the last left among the sons of the gods; and the son of Cronos gave him to Europa to be the warder of Crete and to stride round the island thrice a day with his feet of bronze. Now in all the rest of his body and limbs was he fashioned of bronze and invulnerable; but beneath the sinew by his ankle was a blood-red vein; and this, with its issues of life and death, was covered by a thin skin. So the heroes, though outworn with toil, quickly backed their ship from the land in sore dismay. And now far from Crete would they have been borne in wretched plight, distressed both by thirst and pain, had not Medea addressed them as they turned away:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (ll. 1654-1658) &quot;Hearken to me. For I deem that I alone can subdue for you that man, whoever he be, even though his frame be of bronze throughout, unless his life too is everlasting. But be ready to keep your ship here beyond the cast of his stones, till he yield the victory to me.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;(ll. 1659-1672) Thus she spake; and they drew the ship out of range, resting on their oars, waiting to see what plan unlooked for she would bring to pass; and she, holding the fold of her purple robe over her cheeks on each side, mounted on the deck; and Aeson's son took her hand in his and guided her way along the thwarts. And with songs did she propitiate and invoke the Death-spirits, devourers of life, the swift hounds of Hades, who, hovering through all the air, swoop down on the living. Kneeling in supplication, thrice she called on them with songs, and thrice with prayers; and, shaping her soul to mischief, with her hostile glance she bewitched the eyes of Talos, the man of bronze; and her teeth gnashed bitter wrath against him, and she sent forth baneful phantoms in the frenzy of her rage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (ll. 1673-1693) Father Zeus, surely great wonder rises in my mind, seeing that dire destruction meets us not from disease and wounds alone, but lo! even from afar, may be, it tortures us! So Talos, for all his frame of bronze, yielded the victory to the might of Medea the sorceress. And as he was heaving massy rocks to stay them from reaching the haven, he grazed his ankle on a pointed crag; and the ichor gushed forth like melted lead; and not long thereafter did he stand towering on the jutting cliff. But even as some huge pine, high up on the mountains, which woodmen have left half hewn through by their sharp axes when they returned from the forest—at first it shivers in the wind by night, then at last snaps at the stump and crashes down; so Talos for a while stood on his tireless feet, swaying to and fro, when at last, all strengthless, fell with a mighty thud. For that night there in Crete the heroes lay; then, just as dawn was growing bright, they built a shrine to Minoan Athena, and drew water and went aboard, so that first of all they might by rowing pass beyond Salmone's height.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Project Gutenberg EBook of The Argonautica, by Apollonius Rhodius](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/830/830-h/830-h.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="742" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="198" RevisionGUID="47cf801b-f7e6-4875-ae32-f54c5228bfc3" CreationDate="2015-04-30T08:36:14.380" UserId="36" Comment="added 171 characters in body" Text="###[Loki][1] is an anomaly, [his parents][2] were a giant, Fárbauti, and a goddess (or possibly a giantess, we don't know for sure) Laufey.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_(I can't find any decent images of either Fárbauti or Laufey)_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Loki was originally considered a fire deity, before becoming the trickster we know him as. Farbauti means 'fierce strike' and Laufey means 'pine needles'. So his birth was the result of lightening striking 'pine needles', or the forest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you say, he is indeed a shapeshifter, in fact he is the [_mother_][3] of Odin's horse [Sleipnir][4], whom he gave birth to after shapshifting into a mare and breeding with [Svaðilfari][5] .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But as an Asgardian male, he also regularly mated with Asgardians and giants, the offspring of these pairings were all manner of creatures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example with the giantess [Angrboða][7] he fathered :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Fenrir][8], the great wolf who kills Odin during the events of Ragnarök&#xD;&#xA; - [Jormungandar][9], the great serpent whom is so large his body emcompasses the entire planet&#xD;&#xA; - [Hel][10], the half dead goddess&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It really seems as if Loki is a shapeshifter in the truest sense of the word and takes whatever form suites him best at the time. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/the-aesir-gods-and-goddesses/loki/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://loki-in-myth.tumblr.com/post/29634916739/creation-to-lokis-conception&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://norse-mythology.org/tales/the-fortification-of-asgard/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/others/sleipnir/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/mythology/myths/text/wall_of_asgard.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://feminismandreligion.com/2012/08/22/angrboda-her-children-and-our-shadow-selves-by-deanne-quarrie/&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://feminismandreligion.com/2012/08/22/angrboda-her-children-and-our-shadow-selves-by-deanne-quarrie/&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/209/0/9/FENRIR_by_pamansazz.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://25.media.tumblr.com/2a5f952941bf3e98f4126b0535a7c041/tumblr_ml7s4byGbF1rqbtm2o1_1280.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-aswvRluFlZA/TtpiGeAZCDI/AAAAAAAAAno/GCO3NMuhE_4/s1600/Hel%2Bpost.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="743" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="227" RevisionGUID="f348fd3a-c206-4c84-9656-e0e47df1324e" CreationDate="2015-04-30T08:40:31.957" UserId="26" Comment="improved grammar and removed apology for language" Text="In all the Olympic Pantheon, Athena was revered as goddess of many things: she is a warrior, representing the &quot;noble&quot; part of war, but she is also the goddess of &quot;feminine arts&quot;, like weaving.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How come this goddess is associated with activities so different from one another?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="744" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="227" RevisionGUID="f348fd3a-c206-4c84-9656-e0e47df1324e" CreationDate="2015-04-30T08:40:31.957" Comment="Proposed by 26 approved by 40 edit id of 47" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="745" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="194" RevisionGUID="218cda42-18ce-4838-b254-54cb81fc22e3" CreationDate="2015-04-30T09:10:28.133" UserId="129" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|mythical-creatures|gods|giants|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="746" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="194" RevisionGUID="ba3812c0-6b70-4d9d-af5e-cabce1bcc647" CreationDate="2015-04-30T09:44:58.423" UserId="129" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|mythical-creatures|gods|giants|norse-mythology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="747" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="230" RevisionGUID="a1f046f3-4786-456b-a35b-da21c5bf3418" CreationDate="2015-04-30T09:47:25.633" UserDisplayName="user124" Text="An interesting perspective is given in the Theoi Project webpage [Athena][1], where the goddess was one of a purely ethical divine character and not of one particular naturally manifested physical power.  Specifically, she was considered as a protector of the state in a 'holistic' manner, as explained by the website as:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her power and wisdom appear in her being the protectress and preserver of the state and of social institutions. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Essentially, she preserves the 'state's prosperity and strength within, as well its defense from those from the outside.  The website authors summarise that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As Athena promoted the internal prosperity of the state, by encouraging agriculture and industry, and by maintaining law and order in all public transactions, so also she protected the state from outward enemies, and thus assumes the character of a warlike divinity, though in a very different sense from Ares, Eris, or Enyo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Additionally, Athena is also connected with the invention of the tools and the types of work that men and women did, specifically&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in short Athena and Hephaestus were the great patrons both of the useful and elegant arts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Athena.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="748" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="231" RevisionGUID="27125320-fc71-43f2-86b5-f0d9b6fd44a7" CreationDate="2015-04-30T09:59:52.263" UserId="79" Text="Well, Poseidon's relationship with Zeus was a rocky one. There have been instances where Poseidon is jealous about Zeus' position as the King of gods. However, the same instance is said to be inspired by a conflict of interests, as Poseidon was not satisfied with Zeus' rule. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Poseidon took once part in a minor conspiracy in heaven; for he, along with Hera and Athena, had agreed to put Zeus in bonds. However, he was saved by Briareus (one of the HECATONCHEIRES), whom Achilles' mother Thetis had called to Zeus' rescue; and by just squatting down close to him and through the mere display of his force, Briareus frightened Poseidon and the goddesses away.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But, his views towards Zeus was not always filled with jealousy. There have been times when Poseidon helped Zeus with his troubles and also fought beside him.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;He allied himself with Zeus in the battles against the Giants and repeatedly helped Zeus’s lovers. For example, he calmed the sea so Zeus, disguised as a bull, could cross it with Europa. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Looking into the case more deeply, Poseidon was not overly jealous of his younger brother and had a sense of respect towards him.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In Book Eight, Hera comes to Poseidon and asks him to join forces with her against Zeus, who is aiding the Trojans. His response displays the way in which his attitudes can change quickly. &quot;But the Earth-Shaker growled at her in anger: 'Hera, mistress of babble that you are, what empty-headed talk is this? I would not dream of pitting all the rest of us against Lord Zeus. He overmasters all'&quot; (188). Poseidon had recently attempted to dethrone Zeus on his own, but now became angered at Hera for even mentioning the idea. He switches his opinion again soon after this, however. In Book Thirteen, he chooses to disregard Zeus' orders to stay out of the combat and intervenes on behalf of the Achaeans. &quot;Rancor within him deepened against Zeus… from the deep water, girdler of earth and shaker of earth, Poseidon came to arouse new spirit in the Argives&quot; (300). He went from conspiring against Zeus, to anger at the mere mention of opposing Zeus, and back to opposing Zeus himself. Poseidon's attitudes towards Zeus here are not solid. Instead, they shift and sway, much like water does." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="749" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="172" RevisionGUID="c0639a3b-7ca6-40e9-bda5-a45d1ae1ff44" CreationDate="2015-04-30T10:09:45.900" UserId="51" Comment="Improving question." Text="Who were the Anunnaki? Were they gods or another human race? And what was their mission?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How do we tell who they were?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="751" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2" RevisionGUID="c3dacfa3-b959-42a5-89d6-9c1c3dcf4032" CreationDate="2015-04-30T10:12:41.130" UserId="57" Comment="minor spelling" Text="I know that the Ancient Greeks built temples for a lot of the major children of Cronus, such as the [Temple of Zeus][1] and the [Temple of Hera][2]. Were temples built for all of the children of Cronus, or were they only built for the major ones? If some were left out, is there any indication of why?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Zeus,_Olympia&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Hera,_Olympia" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="752" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2" RevisionGUID="c3dacfa3-b959-42a5-89d6-9c1c3dcf4032" CreationDate="2015-04-30T10:12:41.130" UserId="57" Comment="minor spelling" Text="Did the Greeks build temples for all of the children of Cronus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="754" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="232" RevisionGUID="574ec963-3605-4b46-a3a4-a012e6902fda" CreationDate="2015-04-30T10:21:25.007" UserId="36" Text="###[Poseidon's][1] swaying character often embodies the same traits that the water he rules over displays. Towards Zeus, he is benevolent and helpful at times, but can quickly become jealous, angry, and destructive. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Poseidon's feelings towards Zeus change often (although jealousy is an ongoing theme), he tries to dethrone him in one story and in another, when Hera approaches him and requests aid him in overthrowing Zeus, Posidean angrily rejects her :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;But the Earth-Shaker growled at her in anger: 'Hera, mistress of babble that you are, what empty-headed talk is this? I would not dream of pitting all the rest of us against Lord Zeus. He overmasters all'&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But as a testament to Poseidon's unpredictable character, he almost immediately changes his mind and agrees to aid Hera in overthrowing Zeus :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;He agreed to go along with Hera's plot and she tricked Zeus, getting him to fall asleep on top of Mount Ida while Poseidon led the other gods in an attack against the Trojans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://robertjamesreese.com/essays/a-history-of-poseidon&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/grecoromanmyth1/a/titanomachy.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="755" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="206" RevisionGUID="c7a2caf1-9b10-443e-bb40-05500f6d1326" CreationDate="2015-04-30T10:26:07.873" UserId="79" Comment="added 8 characters in body; edited title" Text="How many Great Gods did the Sumerians have?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was it twelve, as counted on [Wikipedia][1], or it's just a coincidence? Does the number of Great Gods have any meaning?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_religion#Pantheon" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="756" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="206" RevisionGUID="c7a2caf1-9b10-443e-bb40-05500f6d1326" CreationDate="2015-04-30T10:26:07.873" UserId="79" Comment="added 8 characters in body; edited title" Text="How many Great Gods did the Sumerians have?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="757" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="232" RevisionGUID="fd4c1a5d-abbd-4fa0-9bad-c125a6a142b6" CreationDate="2015-04-30T10:26:58.050" UserId="36" Comment="deleted 18 characters in body" Text="###[Poseidon's][1] swaying character often embodies the same traits that the water he rules over displays. Towards Zeus, he is an ally and helpful at times, but can quickly become jealous and angry.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Poseidon's feelings towards Zeus change often (although jealousy is an ongoing theme), he tries to dethrone him in one story and in another, when Hera approaches him and requests aid him in overthrowing Zeus, Posidean angrily rejects her :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;But the Earth-Shaker growled at her in anger: 'Hera, mistress of babble that you are, what empty-headed talk is this? I would not dream of pitting all the rest of us against Lord Zeus. He overmasters all'&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But as a testament to Poseidon's unpredictable character, he almost immediately changes his mind and agrees to aid Hera in overthrowing Zeus :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;He agreed to go along with Hera's plot and she tricked Zeus, getting him to fall asleep on top of Mount Ida while Poseidon led the other gods in an attack against the Trojans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://robertjamesreese.com/essays/a-history-of-poseidon&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/grecoromanmyth1/a/titanomachy.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="758" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="205" RevisionGUID="54300b25-f67a-41cf-a9b9-4d06cce50824" CreationDate="2015-04-30T10:27:59.950" UserId="79" Comment="added 13 characters in body; edited title" Text="The Anunnaki were a group of deities in ancient Mesopotamian culture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How many of them were there at the peak time (which we know about)?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And according to which sources?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="759" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="205" RevisionGUID="54300b25-f67a-41cf-a9b9-4d06cce50824" CreationDate="2015-04-30T10:27:59.950" UserId="79" Comment="added 13 characters in body; edited title" Text="How many Annunaki were living on Earth at the peak of their time?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="760" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="208" RevisionGUID="3ac25dbf-8b51-4ca1-aba2-4408947817d6" CreationDate="2015-04-30T10:30:02.673" UserId="51" Comment="Expanding question." Text="[Wikipedia][1] reads:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He also created the Labyrinth on Crete, in which the Minotaur (part man, part bull) was kept.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However what was the main purpose of the Labyrinth being built? Is it just for keeping a bull?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I guess this has been mentioned by Homer. Or maybe there some other stories which describes it?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is another [cite][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The myth of the Minotaur tells that Theseus, a prince from Athens, sailed to Crete, where he was forced to fight a terrible creature called the Minotaur. The Minotaur was a half man, half bull, and was kept in the Labyrinth - a building like a maze - by the king Minos, the ruler of Crete.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This this could indicate that Labyrinth was used as some kind of fight arena, so people can get punished there? Is this was a purpose?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daedalus#The_Labyrinth&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knossos#Legends_of_Knossos" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="761" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="208" RevisionGUID="3ac25dbf-8b51-4ca1-aba2-4408947817d6" CreationDate="2015-04-30T10:30:02.673" UserId="51" Comment="Expanding question." Text="|greek|homer|daedalus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="762" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="205" RevisionGUID="bf6d6cb0-032a-4e62-8be1-701b134805ad" CreationDate="2015-04-30T10:32:24.247" UserId="51" Comment="Added Wikipedia cite." Text="The Anunnaki were a group of deities in ancient Mesopotamian culture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How many of them were there at the peak time (which we know about)?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And according to which sources?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example on [Wikipedia page][1] we can read:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the Epic of Creation, it is said that there are 300 lgigu of heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anunnaki#Mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="763" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="232" RevisionGUID="db0cf3c0-1d16-4f9d-9b23-883020d18e95" CreationDate="2015-04-30T10:34:00.790" UserId="36" Comment="deleted 18 characters in body" Text="###[Poseidon's][1] swaying character often embodies the same traits that the water he rules over displays. Towards Zeus, he is an ally and helpful at times, but can quickly become jealous and angry.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Homer's **[The Iliad][2]**  provides the best source of information on the relationship between Poseidon and Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In **[Book Eight][3]** :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Poseidon's feelings towards Zeus change often (although jealousy is an ongoing theme), he tries to dethrone him in one story and in another, when Hera approaches him and requests aid him in overthrowing Zeus, Posidean angrily rejects her :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;But the Earth-Shaker growled at her in anger: 'Hera, mistress of babble that you are, what empty-headed talk is this? I would not dream of pitting all the rest of us against Lord Zeus. He overmasters all'&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But as a testament to Poseidon's unpredictable character, he almost immediately changes his mind and agrees to aid Hera in overthrowing Zeus :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;He agreed to go along with Hera's plot and she tricked Zeus, getting him to fall asleep on top of Mount Ida while Poseidon led the other gods in an attack against the Trojans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://robertjamesreese.com/essays/a-history-of-poseidon&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.8.viii.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="765" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="206" RevisionGUID="639c59cc-e3dc-4b8b-b54b-05e27ceac288" CreationDate="2015-04-30T10:37:32.847" UserId="51" Comment="Expanding question." Text="How many Great Gods did the Sumerians have?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was it twelve, as counted on [Wikipedia][1], or it's just a coincidence? Does the number of Great Gods have any meaning?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example in this [article][2] it's suggested:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Department of Oriental Antiquities at the British Museum - describes a pantheon of 'twelve great gods' who despite having been given somewhat different names&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See The Sumerian Pantheon (the family tree) below:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![The Sumerian Pantheon below][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does it indicate that the twelve was some special number?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_religion#Pantheon&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.ianlawton.com/mes2.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MPriX.gif" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="766" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="233" RevisionGUID="30b7ded9-9c79-48e5-a7b1-921cf931d17e" CreationDate="2015-04-30T10:48:55.967" UserId="51" Text="Did it have concentric circular walls with passages blocked by radials or it had rectangular lines?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or we simply don't know?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="767" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="233" RevisionGUID="30b7ded9-9c79-48e5-a7b1-921cf931d17e" CreationDate="2015-04-30T10:48:55.967" UserId="51" Text="Do we know how the Labyrinth on Crete looked like?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="768" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="233" RevisionGUID="30b7ded9-9c79-48e5-a7b1-921cf931d17e" CreationDate="2015-04-30T10:48:55.967" UserId="51" Text="|greek|labyrinth|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="769" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="134" RevisionGUID="c6883653-88a3-409d-a785-527dc7532ddb" CreationDate="2015-04-30T10:50:44.233" UserId="110" Comment="added 360 characters in body" Text="Romans had little mythology of their own when they occupied Greece. One of the many aspects they were lacking cultural wise that they borrowed from Greece. Thus they inherited many (or the lot) of ancient greek mythology which led to their existing Gods getting many of the characteristics of the Ancient greek ones.&#xD;&#xA;They borrowed aspects of the Greek Pantheon before conquering Greece. The romans were never godless or religious-less but they borrowed and merged many of the Greek and Etruscan Gods into their own.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example the cult of Sun was introduced in Rome after Aurelian's (around 260) successful campaigns in Syria. At that time the Asiatic divinities Mithras (that is to say, the Sun) and Ba'al were combined with Apollo and Helios into one Sol Invictus(Unconquered Sun), with conglomerated rites and compound attributes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Here][1] you can find some of the most major Gods of the Roman Pantheon and their origin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.unrv.com/culture/major-roman-god-list.php" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="770" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="206" RevisionGUID="06ce6ab2-e1f4-407c-bb3a-cd501cbd1cfe" CreationDate="2015-04-30T10:52:34.080" UserId="51" Comment="added 52 characters in body" Text="How many Great Gods did the Sumerians have?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was it twelve, as counted on [Wikipedia][1], or it's just a coincidence? Does the number of Great Gods have any meaning?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example in this [article][2] it's suggested:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Department of Oriental Antiquities at the British Museum - describes a pantheon of 'twelve great gods' who despite having been given somewhat different names&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See The Sumerian Pantheon (the family tree) below:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![The Sumerian Pantheon below][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does it indicate that the twelve was some special number? Similar to Greek pantheon (The Pantheon of Twelve)?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_religion#Pantheon&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.ianlawton.com/mes2.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MPriX.gif" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="771" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="234" RevisionGUID="d03a7095-8894-4ee2-befc-5cecc6ae8d02" CreationDate="2015-04-30T10:58:32.763" UserId="119" Text="The settlement of Knossos is associated with the palace of king Minos who housed the Minotaur, as [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knossos) tells us. There are, however, as far as I know, no actual remains discovered that are associated with the labyrinth itself. However, [Wikipedia](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Knossos_silver_coin_400bc.jpg) also shows us a coin that supposedly is from Knossos, around 400BC, that looks like this:&#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whether the coin represents the actual labyrith (if that ever existed) or an artist impression of what they thought the labyrinth would have looked like is of course hard to tell.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/LIfLM.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="775" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="205" RevisionGUID="3e8482af-2d3e-481a-88a5-d16af6897933" CreationDate="2015-04-30T11:00:38.303" UserId="51" Comment="Added tag." Text="|mesopotamia|anunnaki|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="776" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="233" RevisionGUID="51db4a83-e709-4d74-bb26-083394aa2854" CreationDate="2015-04-30T11:04:26.667" UserId="119" Comment="Some grammar corrections" Text="Did it have concentric circular walls with passages blocked by radials or it did it have rectangular lines?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or do we simply not know?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="777" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="233" RevisionGUID="51db4a83-e709-4d74-bb26-083394aa2854" CreationDate="2015-04-30T11:04:26.667" UserId="119" Comment="Some grammar corrections" Text="Do we know what the Labyrinth on Crete looked like?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="778" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="233" RevisionGUID="51db4a83-e709-4d74-bb26-083394aa2854" CreationDate="2015-04-30T11:04:26.667" Comment="Proposed by 119 approved by 51 edit id of 48" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="779" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="206" RevisionGUID="49a39fdb-bb23-4ded-a83b-8bfa8f508a2c" CreationDate="2015-04-30T11:14:55.850" UserId="51" Comment="Added link." Text="How many Great Gods did the Sumerians have?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was it twelve, as counted on [Wikipedia][1], or it's just a coincidence? Does the number of Great Gods have any meaning?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example in this [article][2] it's suggested:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Department of Oriental Antiquities at the British Museum - describes a pantheon of 'twelve great gods' who despite having been given somewhat different names&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See The Sumerian Pantheon (the family tree) below:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![The Sumerian Pantheon below][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does it indicate that the twelve was some special number? Similar to Greek pantheon (The Pantheon of Twelve)?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See also: [“Assembly of the Gods” – 12 Members][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_religion#Pantheon&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.ianlawton.com/mes2.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MPriX.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.mesopotamiangods.com/assembly-of-the-gods-12-members-2/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="781" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="134" RevisionGUID="fc3e65b4-c59f-43cb-ab3a-f10152cf7217" CreationDate="2015-04-30T11:16:59.027" UserId="110" Comment="added 42 characters in body" Text="Romans had little mythology of their own before meeting with other civilizations. One of the many aspects they were lacking, cultural wise, that they borrowed from Greece (and other civilizations). Thus they inherited many (or the lot) of ancient greek mythology which led to their existing Gods getting many of the characteristics of the Ancient greek ones.&#xD;&#xA;They borrowed aspects of the Greek Pantheon before conquering Greece. The romans were never godless or religious-less but they borrowed and merged many of the Greek and Etruscan Gods into their own.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example the cult of Sun was introduced in Rome after Aurelian's (around 260) successful campaigns in Syria. At that time the Asiatic divinities Mithras (that is to say, the Sun) and Ba'al were combined with Apollo and Helios into one Sol Invictus(Unconquered Sun), with conglomerated rites and compound attributes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Here][1] you can find some of the most major Gods of the Roman Pantheon and their origin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.unrv.com/culture/major-roman-god-list.php" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="782" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="206" RevisionGUID="c1e953bc-24d9-4c76-81b4-af690e551371" CreationDate="2015-04-30T11:23:14.140" UserId="51" Comment="added 126 characters in body" Text="How many Great Gods did the Sumerians have?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was it twelve, as counted on [Wikipedia][1], or it's just a coincidence? Does the number of Great Gods have any meaning?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example in this [article][2] it's suggested:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Department of Oriental Antiquities at the British Museum - describes a pantheon of 'twelve great gods' who despite having been given somewhat different names&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See The Sumerian Pantheon (the family tree) below:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![The Sumerian Pantheon below][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does it indicate that the twelve was some special number? Similar to Greek pantheon (The Pantheon of Twelve)?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This source: [“Assembly of the Gods” – 12 Members][4] reads:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There are 6 male deities and 6 female deities among the ruling twelve positions in the “Assembly of the Gods“.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_religion#Pantheon&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.ianlawton.com/mes2.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MPriX.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.mesopotamiangods.com/assembly-of-the-gods-12-members-2/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="783" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="237" RevisionGUID="51390a7f-1cbf-4519-8497-5ef39a2e8477" CreationDate="2015-04-30T11:23:35.633" UserId="51" Text="According to this [source][1], the gods had some numerical ranks as below:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Anu (ranking #60)&#xD;&#xA;1. Antu (ranking #55)&#xD;&#xA;1. Enlil (ranking #50)&#xD;&#xA;1. Ninlil / Sud (ranking #45)&#xD;&#xA;1. Enki / EA (ranking #40)&#xD;&#xA;1. Ninki / Damkina (ranking #35)&#xD;&#xA;1. Nanna / Nannar / Sin / El (ranking #30)&#xD;&#xA;1. Ningal (ranking #25)&#xD;&#xA;1. Utu / Shamash / Allah (ranking #20)&#xD;&#xA;1. Inanna / Ishtar (ranking #15)&#xD;&#xA;1. Adad / Ishkur (ranking #10)&#xD;&#xA;1. Ninhursag / Ninmah / Ninti (ranking #5)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How this system worked?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.mesopotamiangods.com/assembly-of-the-gods-12-members-2/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="784" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="237" RevisionGUID="51390a7f-1cbf-4519-8497-5ef39a2e8477" CreationDate="2015-04-30T11:23:35.633" UserId="51" Text="How the ranking system worked for Sumerian pantheon?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="785" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="237" RevisionGUID="51390a7f-1cbf-4519-8497-5ef39a2e8477" CreationDate="2015-04-30T11:23:35.633" UserId="51" Text="|mesopotamia|gods|annunaki|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="786" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="234" RevisionGUID="ee04e906-d170-4189-9944-44ac46ca85a9" CreationDate="2015-04-30T11:31:08.123" UserId="119" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="The settlement of Knossos is associated with the palace of king Minos who housed the Minotaur, as [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knossos) tells us. There are, however, as far as I know, no actual remains discovered that are associated with the labyrinth itself. However, [Wikipedia](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Knossos_silver_coin_400bc.jpg) also shows us a coin that supposedly is from Knossos, around 400BC, that looks like this:&#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whether the coin represents the actual labyrinth (if that ever existed) or an artist impression of what they thought the labyrinth would have looked like is of course hard to tell.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/LIfLM.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="790" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="239" RevisionGUID="da4e49f3-c169-4c91-94a3-710774810398" CreationDate="2015-04-30T11:36:23.907" UserId="110" Text="Although this might be considered a list based questions the full answer's validity will not change with time as there was a finite list of Greek and Roman deities and that will not change in the future. &#xD;&#xA;Which Greek deities do not have an &quot;equivalent&quot; in the Roman pantheon and vice versa?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="791" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="239" RevisionGUID="da4e49f3-c169-4c91-94a3-710774810398" CreationDate="2015-04-30T11:36:23.907" UserId="110" Text="Which Greek deities do not have an &quot;equivalent&quot; in the Roman pantheon and vice versa?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="792" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="239" RevisionGUID="da4e49f3-c169-4c91-94a3-710774810398" CreationDate="2015-04-30T11:36:23.907" UserId="110" Text="|roman|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="793" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="231" RevisionGUID="4adaaeee-e5f0-4bb8-a925-160b70df308a" CreationDate="2015-04-30T11:44:20.047" UserId="79" Comment="added 477 characters in body" Text="Well, Poseidon's relationship with Zeus was a rocky one. There have been instances where Poseidon is jealous about Zeus' position as the King of gods. However, the same instance is said to be inspired by a conflict of interests, as Poseidon was not satisfied with Zeus' rule. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Poseidon took once part in a minor conspiracy in heaven; for he, along with Hera and Athena, had agreed to put Zeus in bonds. However, he was saved by Briareus (one of the HECATONCHEIRES), whom Achilles' mother Thetis had called to Zeus' rescue; and by just squatting down close to him and through the mere display of his force, Briareus frightened Poseidon and the goddesses away.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But, his views towards Zeus was not always filled with jealousy. There have been times when Poseidon helped Zeus with his troubles and also fought beside him.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;He allied himself with Zeus in the battles against the Giants and repeatedly helped Zeus’s lovers. For example, he calmed the sea so Zeus, disguised as a bull, could cross it with Europa. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Looking into the case more deeply, Poseidon was not overly jealous of his younger brother and had a sense of respect towards him.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In Book Eight, Hera comes to Poseidon and asks him to join forces with her against Zeus, who is aiding the Trojans. His response displays the way in which his attitudes can change quickly. &quot;But the Earth-Shaker growled at her in anger: 'Hera, mistress of babble that you are, what empty-headed talk is this? I would not dream of pitting all the rest of us against Lord Zeus. He overmasters all'&quot; (188). Poseidon had recently attempted to dethrone Zeus on his own, but now became angered at Hera for even mentioning the idea. He switches his opinion again soon after this, however. In Book Thirteen, he chooses to disregard Zeus' orders to stay out of the combat and intervenes on behalf of the Achaeans. &quot;Rancor within him deepened against Zeus… from the deep water, girdler of earth and shaker of earth, Poseidon came to arouse new spirit in the Argives&quot; (300). He went from conspiring against Zeus, to anger at the mere mention of opposing Zeus, and back to opposing Zeus himself. **Poseidon's attitudes towards Zeus here are not solid. Instead, they shift and sway, much like water does**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;sources: [1](http://www.igreekmythology.com/poseidon.html#L1),[2](https://books.google.co.in/books?id=7x9EAgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA73&amp;lpg=PA73&amp;dq=poseidon+conspired+against+Zeus&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=VpWgrhJiWv&amp;sig=-6szBPKYyTd1m6C2kVmVKobAinI&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=7fpBVf32DsHYmAWPzYHgDA&amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;q=poseidon%20conspired%20against%20Zeus&amp;f=false),[3](http://robertjamesreese.com/essays/a-history-of-poseidon),[4](http://www.maicar.com/GML/Poseidon.html)&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="794" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="237" RevisionGUID="40f23159-8ffb-4c51-9e75-e11a682a09b7" CreationDate="2015-04-30T11:45:29.540" UserId="119" Comment="mall grammar corrections" Text="According to this [source][1], the gods had some numerical ranks as below:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Anu (ranking #60)&#xD;&#xA;1. Antu (ranking #55)&#xD;&#xA;1. Enlil (ranking #50)&#xD;&#xA;1. Ninlil / Sud (ranking #45)&#xD;&#xA;1. Enki / EA (ranking #40)&#xD;&#xA;1. Ninki / Damkina (ranking #35)&#xD;&#xA;1. Nanna / Nannar / Sin / El (ranking #30)&#xD;&#xA;1. Ningal (ranking #25)&#xD;&#xA;1. Utu / Shamash / Allah (ranking #20)&#xD;&#xA;1. Inanna / Ishtar (ranking #15)&#xD;&#xA;1. Adad / Ishkur (ranking #10)&#xD;&#xA;1. Ninhursag / Ninmah / Ninti (ranking #5)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How did this system work?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.mesopotamiangods.com/assembly-of-the-gods-12-members-2/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="795" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="237" RevisionGUID="40f23159-8ffb-4c51-9e75-e11a682a09b7" CreationDate="2015-04-30T11:45:29.540" UserId="119" Comment="mall grammar corrections" Text="How did the ranking system for the Sumerian pantheon work?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="796" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="237" RevisionGUID="40f23159-8ffb-4c51-9e75-e11a682a09b7" CreationDate="2015-04-30T11:45:29.540" Comment="Proposed by 119 approved by 79, 51 edit id of 49" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="797" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="240" RevisionGUID="b4583c7d-c866-4e6d-93c2-87e98cd7f76b" CreationDate="2015-04-30T11:58:41.987" UserId="36" Text="###It is a commonly held belief that The Labyrinth is in fact the [Palace of Knossos][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Labyrinth has been [described as][2] :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;... a maze-like building of winding corridors and complicated twists and turns, which confused anyone who entered it so much that he could not find the way out.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which could be considered an apt description of the palace.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here][3]&#xD;&#xA;The Palace of Knossos&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And according to legend :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Knossos itself was built by the architect Daedalus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://ancient-greece.org/archaeology/knossos.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.explorecrete.com/mythology/daedalus.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/khHaC.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="798" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="241" RevisionGUID="cf82839c-0963-4a70-b7ac-6e9f6c2b0fb5" CreationDate="2015-04-30T12:05:11.297" UserId="57" Text="[Plutarch][1] quotes [Philochorus][2] in Life of Theseus and tells us that (although the Cretans wouldn't admit it) the labyrinth was a normal prison: &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; But Philochorus writeth, that the Cretans do not confess that, but say that this labyrinth was a gail or prison, in the which they had no other hurt, saving that they which were kept there under lock and key could not fly nor start away.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Plut. Thes.](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.03.0078%3Atext%3DThes.)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutarch&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philochorus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="799" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="240" RevisionGUID="975434da-74b7-4c8f-b691-eb803614c7e4" CreationDate="2015-04-30T12:14:34.180" UserId="36" Comment="added 127 characters in body" Text="###It is a commonly held belief that The Labyrinth is in fact the [Palace of Knossos][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Labyrinth has been [described as][2] :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;... a maze-like building of winding corridors and complicated twists and turns, which confused anyone who entered it so much that he could not find the way out.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which could be considered an apt description of the palace.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here][3]&#xD;&#xA;The Palace of Knossos&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And according to legend :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Knossos itself was built by the architect Daedalus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;No one knows exactly where The Labyrinth is or supposed to be and as such how it actually looks is open to interpretation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://ancient-greece.org/archaeology/knossos.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.explorecrete.com/mythology/daedalus.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/khHaC.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="800" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="242" RevisionGUID="c8c5add8-208b-439b-bc37-7ef584146724" CreationDate="2015-04-30T12:17:12.250" UserId="26" Text="The character of Zeus is well-known for seducing many women, both human and goddesses. In many of these stories, Zeus assumes a form other than his true self. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most famous is perhaps Leda - it is said that Zeus seduced her in the form of a swan (some versions specify that he came to her, in swan form, seeking protection from an eagle).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there are many other stories - [this page][1] lists several lovers who were not seduced in human form:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ANTIOPE: A Lady of Thebes in Boiotia (Central Greece) who was seduced&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by Zeus in the shape of a **satyr**. She bore him twin sons Amphion and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zethos which were exposed at birth.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; DANAE: A Princess of Argos (in Central Greece) who was imprisoned by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her father in a bronze tower. Zeus seduced her in the form of **a golden&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shower**, and she gave birth to a son, the hero Perseus.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; EURYMEDOUSA: A Princess of Phthiotis (in Northern Greece) who was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; seduced by Zeus in the form of **an ant**. Their son was named Myrmidon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Ant-Man).&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; LEDA: A Queen of Lakedaimonia (in Southern Greece) who was seduced by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zeus in the form of **a swan**. She laid an egg from which were hatched the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dioskouroi twins&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; PHTHIA: A girl from Aegion in Akhaia (southern Greece). Zeus seduced&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her in the guise of **a pigeon or dove**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In some stories, it makes complete sense why Zeus assumed the form he did:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ALKMENE: A Lady of Thebes in Boiotia (Central Greece) who was seduced&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by Zeus in **the form of her own husband**. She bore twins: Herakles&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by Zeus and Likymnios by her husband Amphitryon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story of Semele, Dionysus' mother, explains why Zeus does not present himself in his godly form - mortals perish when they look upon gods. However, it doesn't really explain why Zeus chose such varied, non-human, and frankly weird (ant?!), shapes for his seduction process. My question is, do any stories every offer an explanation for Zeus' shapes, or an indication of the motivation behind it?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/ZeusLoves3.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="801" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="242" RevisionGUID="c8c5add8-208b-439b-bc37-7ef584146724" CreationDate="2015-04-30T12:17:12.250" UserId="26" Text="Why did Zeus assume so many different forms for seduction?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="802" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="242" RevisionGUID="c8c5add8-208b-439b-bc37-7ef584146724" CreationDate="2015-04-30T12:17:12.250" UserId="26" Text="|greek|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="803" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="240" RevisionGUID="b0661353-b9f8-48cd-9e14-99364b8fbe9c" CreationDate="2015-04-30T12:22:35.833" UserId="36" Comment="added 127 characters in body" Text="###It is a commonly held belief that The Labyrinth is in fact the [Palace of Knossos][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Labyrinth has been [described as][2] :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;... a maze-like building of winding corridors and complicated twists and turns, which confused anyone who entered it so much that he could not find the way out.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which could be considered an apt description of the palace.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here][3]&#xD;&#xA;The Palace of Knossos&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And according to legend :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Knossos itself was built by the architect Daedalus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Minoan building complex at Knossos, from the [excavations of Arthur Evans][5] (1851 – 1941) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://ancient-greece.org/archaeology/knossos.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.explorecrete.com/mythology/daedalus.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/khHaC.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/eE490.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://quadriformisratio.wordpress.com/2013/07/01/an-eternal-way-of-confusion/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="804" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="214" RevisionGUID="824c66e5-8cf0-4706-ae7a-dfd20645b48a" CreationDate="2015-04-30T12:30:08.330" UserId="119" Comment="Extra line break and ellipsis in quote (seeming continuation of the sentence was confusing and not in line wiith the quoted original)" Text="Homer describes Sisyphus as the *craftiest* of men; he was a generally deceitful guy. However Homer gives no reason for his punishment, no list of crimes and so we must look to other Classical writers. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The myth featuring Sisyphus and Thanatos comes from a fragment by Aeschylus titled *[Sisyphus the Stone-Roller][1]*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sisyphus bound Death fast, so that men ceased to die, until Ares came to the rescue, released Death, and gave Sisyphus into his power. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus, *Library* writes of one of his apparently many duplicities:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  This punishment he endures for the sake of Aegina, daughter of Asopus; for when Zeus had secretly carried her off, Sisyphus is said to have betrayed the secret to Asopus, who was looking for her. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyginus in his *[Fabulae][2]* gives the following reason :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sisyphus and Salmoneus, sons of Aeolus, hated each other. Sisyphus asked Apollo how he might kill his enemy, meaning his brother, and the answer was given that if he had children from the embrace of Tryo, daughter of his brother Salmoneus, they would avenge him. When Sisyphus followed this advice, two sons were born, but their mother slew them when she learned of the prophecy. But when Sisyphus found out  . . .  &#xD;&#xA;Because of his impiety he now, it is said, in the Land of the Dead rolls a stone, [...]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While [Plutarch writes][3]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Anticleia, while yet a virgin, was violated by Sisyphus and conceived Odysseus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Euripides also supports][4] this version of Odysseus's true parentage). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/AeschylusFragments2.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusFabulae2.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:2008.01.0216:section=43&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0094%3Acard%3D82" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="805" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="214" RevisionGUID="824c66e5-8cf0-4706-ae7a-dfd20645b48a" CreationDate="2015-04-30T12:30:08.330" Comment="Proposed by 119 approved by 79, -1 edit id of 50" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="806" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="214" RevisionGUID="944a0bc7-2320-45cb-a12f-42232e0cbcba" CreationDate="2015-04-30T12:30:08.330" UserId="26" Comment="Extra line break and ellipsis in quote (seeming continuation of the sentence was confusing and not in line wiith the quoted original)" Text="Homer describes Sisyphus as the *craftiest* of men; he was a generally deceitful guy. However Homer gives no reason for his punishment, no list of crimes and so we must look to other Classical writers. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The myth featuring Sisyphus and Thanatos comes from a fragment by Aeschylus titled *[Sisyphus the Stone-Roller][1]*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sisyphus bound Death fast, so that men ceased to die, until Ares came to the rescue, released Death, and gave Sisyphus into his power. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus, *Library* writes of one of his apparently many duplicities:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  This punishment he endures for the sake of Aegina, daughter of Asopus; for when Zeus had secretly carried her off, Sisyphus is said to have betrayed the secret to Asopus, who was looking for her. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyginus in his *[Fabulae][2]* gives the following reason :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sisyphus and Salmoneus, sons of Aeolus, hated each other. Sisyphus asked Apollo how he might kill his enemy, meaning his brother, and the answer was given that if he had children from the embrace of Tryo, daughter of his brother Salmoneus, they would avenge him. When Sisyphus followed this advice, two sons were born, but their mother slew them when she learned of the prophecy. But when Sisyphus found out  . . .  &#xD;&#xA;Because of his impiety he now, it is said, in the Land of the Dead rolls a stone [...].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While [Plutarch writes][3]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Anticleia, while yet a virgin, was violated by Sisyphus and conceived Odysseus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Euripides also supports][4] this version of Odysseus's true parentage). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/AeschylusFragments2.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusFabulae2.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:2008.01.0216:section=43&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0094%3Acard%3D82" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="807" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="234" RevisionGUID="3948bc5d-56d7-40d9-9826-38165aa49dd8" CreationDate="2015-04-30T12:34:01.010" UserId="119" Comment="added 54 characters in body" Text="The settlement of Knossos is associated with the palace of king Minos who housed the Minotaur, as [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knossos) tells us. There are, however, as far as I know, no actual remains discovered of the labyrinth itself. A common interpretation is that the Laybyrinth is actually the palace.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, [Wikipedia](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Knossos_silver_coin_400bc.jpg) also shows us a coin that supposedly is from Knossos, around 400BC, that looks like this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whether the coin represents the actual labyrinth (if that ever existed) or an artist impression of what they thought the labyrinth would have looked like is of course hard to tell.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/LIfLM.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="809" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="231" RevisionGUID="7371d9e3-46e1-4828-84b1-f48542bc6992" CreationDate="2015-04-30T12:39:30.203" UserId="57" Comment="added 163 characters in body" Text="Well, Poseidon's relationship with Zeus was a rocky one. There have been instances where Poseidon is jealous about Zeus' position as the King of gods. However, the same instance is said to be inspired by a conflict of interests, as Poseidon was not satisfied with Zeus' rule. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Poseidon took once part in a minor conspiracy in heaven; for he, along with Hera and Athena, had agreed to put Zeus in bonds. However, he was saved by Briareus (one of the HECATONCHEIRES), whom Achilles' mother Thetis had called to Zeus' rescue; and by just squatting down close to him and through the mere display of his force, Briareus frightened Poseidon and the goddesses away.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Source: http://www.igreekmythology.com/poseidon.html#L1&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But, his views towards Zeus was not always filled with jealousy. There have been times when Poseidon helped Zeus with his troubles and also fought beside him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He allied himself with Zeus in the battles against the Giants and repeatedly helped Zeus’s lovers. For example, he calmed the sea so Zeus, disguised as a bull, could cross it with Europa. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Source: [Mythology 101: From Gods and Goddesses to Monsters and Mortals, Your Guide to Ancient Mythology](https://books.google.co.in/books?id=7x9EAgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA73&amp;lpg=PA73&amp;dq=poseidon+conspired+against+Zeus&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=VpWgrhJiWv&amp;sig=-6szBPKYyTd1m6C2kVmVKobAinI&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=7fpBVf32DsHYmAWPzYHgDA&amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;q=poseidon%20conspired%20against%20Zeus&amp;f=false)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Looking into the case more deeply, Poseidon was not overly jealous of his younger brother and had a sense of respect towards him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Book Eight, Hera comes to Poseidon and asks him to join forces with her against Zeus, who is aiding the Trojans. His response displays the way in which his attitudes can change quickly. &quot;But the Earth-Shaker growled at her in anger: 'Hera, mistress of babble that you are, what empty-headed talk is this? I would not dream of pitting all the rest of us against Lord Zeus. He overmasters all'&quot; (188). Poseidon had recently attempted to dethrone Zeus on his own, but now became angered at Hera for even mentioning the idea. He switches his opinion again soon after this, however. In Book Thirteen, he chooses to disregard Zeus' orders to stay out of the combat and intervenes on behalf of the Achaeans. &quot;Rancor within him deepened against Zeus… from the deep water, girdler of earth and shaker of earth, Poseidon came to arouse new spirit in the Argives&quot; (300). He went from conspiring against Zeus, to anger at the mere mention of opposing Zeus, and back to opposing Zeus himself. **Poseidon's attitudes towards Zeus here are not solid. Instead, they shift and sway, much like water does**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Source: [A History of Poseidon by Robert James Reese, 2002](http://robertjamesreese.com/essays/a-history-of-poseidon)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further reading: http://www.maicar.com/GML/Poseidon.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="811" PostHistoryTypeId="11" PostId="172" RevisionGUID="c3320dc5-832a-4d99-9e3a-91bb0910b7db" CreationDate="2015-04-30T12:43:29.173" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:51,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;kenorb&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:26,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Luna&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:79,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ero Sɘnnin&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:110,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;John Demetriou&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="812" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="243" RevisionGUID="081bb6ac-275e-41b7-bd0f-83fad4bffe4d" CreationDate="2015-04-30T12:45:36.747" UserId="65" Text="The ranking system (which I believe to be a little off) seem to be how powerful the god was according to the people and priests.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anu is the top dog while his wife Antu is 5 below symbolizing that man was considered higher than women.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you can see the system is based on 5's with every male in the 10's and their spouses 5 below." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="814" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="212" RevisionGUID="cc3d50d9-4b9a-404e-9074-aad35f4bf071" CreationDate="2015-04-30T13:03:29.237" UserId="108" Comment="added 272 characters in body" Text="He Meant Thor&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The report by Tacitus was indeed a case of [*interpretatio graeca*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretatio_graeca) at work. As the Austrian historian [Herwig Wolfram](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herwig_Wolfram) writes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thor must have been swinging his hammer as the god Donar (&quot;the Thunderer&quot;) of the West Germanic peoples already during the imperial period, **since Tacitus equated him with Hercules.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Wolfram, Herwig. *The Roman Empire and Its Germanic Peoples*. University of California Press, 1997.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This seems to be the opinion shared by most scholars, such as: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tacitus speaks of a Germanic silva Herculi sacra, i.e. a &quot;forest sacred to Hercules&quot; by which is meant the Germanic god Þórr.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Snyder, William H. *Time, Being, and Soul in the Oldest Sanskrit Sources.* Global Academic Publishing, 2001.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Þórr being of course [Thor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor)) and:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tacitus, who claims that the highest god among the Germanic tribes was Mercury, followed by Hercules ... in the case of Hercules, however, the Roman interpretation must have meant Thor.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Murdoch, Brian, and Malcolm Kevin Read, eds. *Early Germanic Literature and Culture*. Vol. 1. Boydell &amp; Brewer, 2004.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But There Was Hercules Magusanus&#xD;&#xA;-----------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While Tacitus meant Thor, there *was* a following for the syncretic deity Hercules Magusanus in [Germania (Inferior)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germania_Inferior). This *kind of* qualifies as a cult of Hercules perhaps.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Significant here is the epigraphic evidence for the cult of Hercules Magusanus. Hercules Magusanus is a god with a double name, a Roman and an indigenous one respectively, and we should regard him as a syncretism of the Roman Hercules with Magusanus, a local deity or hero. The cult was based in Germania Inferior, particularly the Batavian region, as attested to by the distribution of votive inscriptions and the presence of some monumental sanctuaries that can be ascribed to this deity.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Roymans, Nico. *Ethnic Identity and Imperial Power: The Batavians in the Early Roman Empire*. Vol. 10. Amsterdam University Press, 2004. &lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Religious sites dedicated to him has been found at [Empel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empel), [Kessel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kessel,_North_Brabant), and [Elst](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elst,_Gelderland), with significant attestations all around the Rhineland. In fact there are enough attestations for the worship of this god that he is thought to be the chief deity of the [Batavians](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batavi_%28Germanic_tribe%29), who lived around modern Netherlands.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hercules Magusanus, who was probably the chief deity of the Batavians. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Nicolay, Johan. Armed Batavians. Amsterdam University Press, 2007.&lt;/sub&gt;**" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="815" PostHistoryTypeId="11" PostId="135" RevisionGUID="e98ff9dc-0480-44c8-a127-bd13ea8c7195" CreationDate="2015-04-30T13:10:45.107" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:42,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;femtoRgon&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:144,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Robotnik&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:26,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Luna&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:111,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;plannapus&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:11,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;durron597&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="817" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="244" RevisionGUID="085664f4-15cc-44c4-a093-a60f43c92af7" CreationDate="2015-04-30T13:30:33.313" UserId="51" Text="In Legend of Keret we can read that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; King Keret of Hubur (or Khuburu), despite being reputed to be a son of the great god [El][1] himself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To which El god this legend refers to?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Could be the same El as in the Bible?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="818" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="244" RevisionGUID="085664f4-15cc-44c4-a093-a60f43c92af7" CreationDate="2015-04-30T13:30:33.313" UserId="51" Text="Who is god El in Legend of Keret?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="819" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="244" RevisionGUID="085664f4-15cc-44c4-a093-a60f43c92af7" CreationDate="2015-04-30T13:30:33.313" UserId="51" Text="|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="820" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="245" RevisionGUID="de5c3cf5-f9b8-4201-a14f-a7fe14e826a0" CreationDate="2015-04-30T13:53:48.643" UserId="108" Text="Yes, we we do. In fact, none other than the [*Kojiki*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kojiki) itself states that its stories are collected from contemporary works (which have all been lost). This is because the ***Kojiki* was a compilation**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It arose out of a royal effort to collected &quot;historical&quot; texts in circulation at the time. And, more importantly, to edit it into a (relatively) coherent narrative (and prropaganda).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the *Kojiki's* own preface,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 朕聞諸家之所藏帝紀及本辭，既違正實，多加虚僞。當今之時，不改其失，未經幾年，其旨欲滅。斯乃邦家經緯，王化之鴻基焉？故惟撰録帝紀，討覈舊辭，削僞、定實，欲流後葉&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; We heard that **chronicles collected by other families** are inaccurate and contains many fabrications. If this is not corrected now, within a few years the true message would dissipate. Therefore we compile this chronicle, examine the old tales to remove false narratives and pin down the truth for the future.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus clearly there were earlier works." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="822" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="247" RevisionGUID="94d2398c-7842-41e2-a2c0-63e1b1d1e72b" CreationDate="2015-04-30T14:11:30.077" UserId="51" Text="Here is the picture of cylinder seal VA/243.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![cylinder seal VA/243][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Image credits: [Z. Sitchin][2]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This seal was named like that because it is number 243 in the collection of the Vorderasiatische Museum in Berlin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the meaning of the star symbols below?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![cylinder seal VA/243 - star symbols][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is I guess explained in [A Brief Analysis of Cylinder Seal VA 243][4], however it's still not clear for me.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does it show some specific constellation?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ceEZu.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sitchin.com/teapot.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/raQCN.png&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.sitchiniswrong.com/VA243seal.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="823" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="247" RevisionGUID="94d2398c-7842-41e2-a2c0-63e1b1d1e72b" CreationDate="2015-04-30T14:11:30.077" UserId="51" Text="What is the meaning of star symbols appearing on seal VA 243?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="824" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="247" RevisionGUID="94d2398c-7842-41e2-a2c0-63e1b1d1e72b" CreationDate="2015-04-30T14:11:30.077" UserId="51" Text="|sumerian|mesopotamia|interpretation|symbolism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="825" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="247" RevisionGUID="aa9c4a39-df31-41a3-8d10-6f6ad07f7b77" CreationDate="2015-04-30T14:21:17.380" UserId="79" Comment="added 9 characters in body; edited title" Text="Here is the picture of cylinder seal VA/243.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![cylinder seal VA/243][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Image credits: [Z. Sitchin][2]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This seal was named like that because it is number 243 in the collection of the Vorderasiatische Museum in Berlin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the meaning of the star symbols shown below?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![cylinder seal VA/243 - star symbols][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is I guess explained in [A Brief Analysis of Cylinder Seal VA 243][4], however it's still not clear for me.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it referring to a specific constellation?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ceEZu.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sitchin.com/teapot.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/raQCN.png&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.sitchiniswrong.com/VA243seal.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="826" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="247" RevisionGUID="aa9c4a39-df31-41a3-8d10-6f6ad07f7b77" CreationDate="2015-04-30T14:21:17.380" UserId="79" Comment="added 9 characters in body; edited title" Text="What is the meaning of the star symbols appearing on seal VA 243?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="830" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="249" RevisionGUID="05d5e788-617f-4c62-9352-0c6d86b85023" CreationDate="2015-04-30T14:37:44.507" UserId="11" Text="I don't think it's explicitly said, but essentially, as being constantly unable to control himself, yet still being married to Hera, Zeus had two problems:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Hera, ever jealous was constantly after him. As a result, Zeus kept trying different tricks with which to hide from her (which never worked). Once, he tried blanketing the earth in clouds and transforming [Io](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Io_(mythology)) into a cow. From [Ovid's *Metamorphoses*](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/Metamorph.htm#anchor_Toc64105476):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;   &gt; Meanwhile Juno looked down into the heart of Argos, surprised that rapid mists had created night in shining daylight. She knew they were not vapours from the river, or breath from the damp earth. She looked around to see where her husband was, knowing by now the intrigues of a spouse so often caught in the act. When she could not find him in the skies, she said ‘Either I am wrong, or being wronged’ and gliding down from heaven’s peak, she stood on earth ordering the clouds to melt. Jupiter had a presage of his wife’s arrival and had changed Inachus’s daughter into a gleaming heifer. Even in that form she was beautiful. Saturnia approved the animal’s looks, though grudgingly, asking, then, whose she was, where from, what herd, as if she did not know. Jupiter, to stop all inquiry, lied, saying she had been born from the earth. Then Saturnia claimed her as a gift. What could he do? Cruel to sacrifice his love, but suspicious not to. Shame urges him to it, Amor urges not. Amor would have conquered Shame, but if he refused so slight a gift as a heifer to the companion of his race and bed, it might appear no heifer!&#xD;&#xA;2. The women themselves were almost never interested, and so he transformed himself to make them more willing. This happened all the time; [a good example was in the myth](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus3.html#10) of [Leda](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leda_(mythology)) / [Nemesis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemesis_(mythology)):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    &gt; But Zeus in the form of a swan consorted with Leda, and on the same night Tyndareus cohabited with her; and she bore Pollux and Helen to Zeus, and Castor and Clytaemnestra to Tyndareus. But some say that Helen was a daughter of Nemesis and Zeus; for that she, flying from the arms of Zeus, changed herself into a goose, but Zeus in his turn took the likeness of a swan and so enjoyed her; and as the fruit of their loves she laid an egg, and a certain shepherd found it in the groves and brought and gave it to Leda; and she put it in a chest and kept it; and when Helen was hatched in due time, Leda brought her up as her own daughter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, for one or the other of these reasons, Zeus pretty much had no choice, if he wanted to keep raping every beautiful woman he met. And he was the king of the gods, so he certainly wasn't going to give *that* up." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="840" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="208" RevisionGUID="3937c065-4577-41e9-9016-dcaf111510b2" CreationDate="2015-04-30T14:58:05.053" UserId="51" Comment="Expanding question." Text="[Wikipedia][1] reads:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He also created the Labyrinth on Crete, in which the Minotaur (part man, part bull) was kept.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However what was the main purpose of the Labyrinth being built? Is it just for keeping a bull?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I guess this has been mentioned by Homer. Or maybe there some other stories which describes it?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is another [cite][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The myth of the Minotaur tells that Theseus, a prince from Athens, sailed to Crete, where he was forced to fight a terrible creature called the Minotaur. The Minotaur was a half man, half bull, and was kept in the Labyrinth - a building like a maze - by the king Minos, the ruler of Crete.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This this could indicate that Labyrinth was used as some kind of fight arena, so people can get punished there?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And in [here][3] it's suggested that The Labyrinth could be in fact the Palace of Knossos. Therefore the purpose could be just residential.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore is the purpose of the Labyrinth has any other meaning than just housing the Minotaur?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daedalus#The_Labyrinth&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knossos#Legends_of_Knossos&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/233/51" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="841" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="251" RevisionGUID="269f06a5-5b98-4d9a-a674-50d353848bd3" CreationDate="2015-04-30T15:19:03.260" UserId="11" Text="It's well known the story of Acrisius and Danae; Acrisius wants male children, and the oracle says he won't have any, but he'll have a grandson who kills him. So he locks Danae up in a prison, and Zeus impregnates her with a golden shower. [Apollodorus 2.4.1](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus2.html):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When Acrisius inquired of the oracle how he should get male children, the god said that his daughter would give birth to a son who would kill him.49 Fearing that, Acrisius built a brazen chamber under ground and there guarded Danae.50 However, she was seduced, as some say, by Proetus, whence arose the quarrel between them51; but some say that Zeus had intercourse with her in the shape of a stream of gold which poured through the roof into Danae's lap. When Acrisius afterwards learned that she had got a child Perseus, he would not believe that she had been seduced by Zeus, and putting his daughter with the child in a chest, he cast it into the sea. The chest was washed ashore on Seriphus, and Dictys took up the boy and reared him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But my question is, what did *Danae* want? Did she want to mate with Zeus, or was she raped? Did she go in her prison willingly or voluntarily?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="842" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="251" RevisionGUID="269f06a5-5b98-4d9a-a674-50d353848bd3" CreationDate="2015-04-30T15:19:03.260" UserId="11" Text="What did Danae want?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="843" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="251" RevisionGUID="269f06a5-5b98-4d9a-a674-50d353848bd3" CreationDate="2015-04-30T15:19:03.260" UserId="11" Text="|greek|zeus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="844" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="252" RevisionGUID="8548604f-4418-429a-94ea-15987b7c44c2" CreationDate="2015-04-30T15:20:01.557" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="845" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="253" RevisionGUID="1ddb2ee3-43d0-45b8-9f8a-ce9bddf6136b" CreationDate="2015-04-30T15:20:01.557" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="846" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="254" RevisionGUID="9e8f9530-bed9-4b82-b78b-dfdd82f760c1" CreationDate="2015-04-30T15:24:04.607" UserId="155" Text="The myth of dragons can be found in many different traditions, with the major two being the European dragon and the Chinese dragon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;There are *two **distinct** cultural traditions* of dragons: the European&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dragon, derived from European folk traditions and ultimately related&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to Greek and Middle Eastern mythologies, and the Chinese dragon, with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; counterparts in Japan (namely the Japanese dragon), Korea and other&#xD;&#xA;&gt; East Asian countries[1][1].&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [Smithsonian][2], one theory behind this myth is the unearthing of dinosaur fossils:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Ancient people may have discovered dinosaur fossils and understandably&#xD;&#xA;&gt; misinterpreted them as the remains of dragons. Chang Qu, a Chinese&#xD;&#xA;&gt; historian from the 4th century B.C., mislabeled such a fossil in what&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is now Sichuan Province.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you can see, the Chinese historian in the article discovered these dinosaur fossils in the 4th century B.C., however, when (and where) did the **earliest known myth of 'dragons'** originate?&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon#cite_note-1&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.smithsonian.com/science-nature/where-did-dragons-come-from-23969126/#3MPFc6DsH7dCBMOV.99" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="847" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="254" RevisionGUID="9e8f9530-bed9-4b82-b78b-dfdd82f760c1" CreationDate="2015-04-30T15:24:04.607" UserId="155" Text="Where Did Dragons Come From?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="848" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="254" RevisionGUID="9e8f9530-bed9-4b82-b78b-dfdd82f760c1" CreationDate="2015-04-30T15:24:04.607" UserId="155" Text="|mythical-creatures|cross-mythology|dragons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="849" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="255" RevisionGUID="b30c953b-1352-43a0-a932-76a349969141" CreationDate="2015-04-30T15:57:49.280" UserId="98" Text="Charon is known as the ferryman of the River Styx, letting certain people cross the river with a fee. Charon himself is well known for helping many significant heroes in multiple Greek legends.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He always seems to collect a toll from those who cross the River Styx with his assisstance. What exactly does Charon do with the toll money he receives from his passengers? And why exactly does he need to collect a toll?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="850" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="255" RevisionGUID="b30c953b-1352-43a0-a932-76a349969141" CreationDate="2015-04-30T15:57:49.280" UserId="98" Text="Why did Charon collect a toll at the River Styx" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="851" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="255" RevisionGUID="b30c953b-1352-43a0-a932-76a349969141" CreationDate="2015-04-30T15:57:49.280" UserId="98" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="854" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="256" RevisionGUID="8a134a82-3a25-488e-a623-d8f1daf082a4" CreationDate="2015-04-30T16:39:08.750" UserId="98" Text="Medusa is known for being so ugly that if men even look at her face, they would immediately be turned into stone statues. Perseus was somehow able to overcome this challenge of killing her by looking at her reflection in a mirror. Even though he was technically looking at her, just with a mirror, he did not turn into stone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So how does looking at Medusa's reflection in a mirror prevent men from turning into stone? Technically he should have turned into stone as he looked at her, but this time indirectly. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="855" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="256" RevisionGUID="8a134a82-3a25-488e-a623-d8f1daf082a4" CreationDate="2015-04-30T16:39:08.750" UserId="98" Text="Why does looking at Medusa with a mirror work?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="856" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="256" RevisionGUID="8a134a82-3a25-488e-a623-d8f1daf082a4" CreationDate="2015-04-30T16:39:08.750" UserId="98" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="859" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="257" RevisionGUID="bbbc9219-f074-47b1-8d56-85b1340b4b79" CreationDate="2015-04-30T16:46:04.933" UserId="98" Text="In many religions, such as the Greeks, the number 12 is considered holy and sacred for many generations. There are 12 main gods in Greek mythology, Odin had 12 sons in Norse mythology, 12 disicples of Christ in Christinaity, and 12 Imams in the Islam religion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So why exactly is the number 12 considered sacred and holy by many religions?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: This [answer][1] by naltipar has inspired my question. He has said this, which deems my question unanswered as of for now:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I have found no reference (and I believe there isn't any) as to **why** it is deemed a special number, apart from the fact that it had many mathematical properties, such as being the first number with six divisors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;   [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/146/why-were-there-exactly-12-olympian-gods" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="860" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="257" RevisionGUID="bbbc9219-f074-47b1-8d56-85b1340b4b79" CreationDate="2015-04-30T16:46:04.933" UserId="98" Text="Why is 12 such a holy number?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="861" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="257" RevisionGUID="bbbc9219-f074-47b1-8d56-85b1340b4b79" CreationDate="2015-04-30T16:46:04.933" UserId="98" Text="|12|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="863" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="257" RevisionGUID="7645c099-2457-400b-8e77-315d2e0e4f57" CreationDate="2015-04-30T16:54:06.000" UserId="18" Comment="Tag edits.   " Text="|numerology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="864" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="257" RevisionGUID="7645c099-2457-400b-8e77-315d2e0e4f57" CreationDate="2015-04-30T16:54:06.000" Comment="Proposed by 18 approved by 98 edit id of 53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="865" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="239" RevisionGUID="1771827b-6ac7-4c5e-8878-f8509c406fe5" CreationDate="2015-04-30T16:54:41.383" UserId="-1" Comment="102" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:96,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;David Stratton&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:108,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Semaphore&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:65,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Young Guilo&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:98,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;PythonMaster&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="866" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="257" RevisionGUID="57a3b07d-b99b-48ac-80be-1361dff1d26d" CreationDate="2015-04-30T16:54:42.807" UserId="36" Comment="deleted 4 characters in body" Text="In many religions, such as the Greeks, the number 12 is considered holy and sacred for many generations. There are 12 main gods in Greek mythology, Odin had 12 sons in Norse mythology, 12 disicples of Christ in Christinaity, and 12 Imams in the Islam religion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So why exactly is the number 12 considered sacred and holy by many religions?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: This [answer][1] by naltipar has inspired my question. He has said this, which deems my question unanswered as of now:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I have found no reference (and I believe there isn't any) as to **why** it is deemed a special number, apart from the fact that it had many mathematical properties, such as being the first number with six divisors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;   [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/146/why-were-there-exactly-12-olympian-gods" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="867" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="258" RevisionGUID="f2b33119-6441-4cd5-8de6-4dac18d7d5c0" CreationDate="2015-04-30T17:16:44.513" UserId="57" Text="It was looking _directly_ into Medusa's eyes that would turn a mortal to stone, not the whole of her face. Using the shield as a mirror meant that even if Medusa's gaze fell upon Perseus, it would be at an ankle. Not that it matter in the end, as Perseus was lucky enough to catch Medusa and her sisters sleeping:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But the Gorgons had heads twined about with the scales of dragons, and great tusks like swine's, and brazen hands, and golden wings, by which they flew; and they turned to stone such as beheld them. So Perseus stood over them as they slept, and while Athena guided his hand and he looked with averted gaze on a brazen shield, in which he beheld the image of the Gorgon,5 he beheaded her. When her head was cut off, there sprang from the Gorgon the winged horse Pegasus and Chrysaor, the father of Geryon; these she had by Poseidon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Apollod. 2.4.2](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D2%3Achapter%3D4%3Asection%3D2#note6)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It should be noted, however, that Hesiod doesn't mention the shield at all: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And again, Ceto bore to Phorcys the fair-cheeked Graiae, sisters grey from their birth: and both deathless gods and men who walk on earth call them Graiae, Pemphredo well-clad, and saffron-robed Enyo, and the Gorgons who dwell beyond glorious Ocean in the frontier land towards Night where are the clear-voiced Hesperides, Sthenno, and Euryale, and Medusa who suffered a woeful fate: she was mortal, but the two were undying and grew not old. With her lay the Dark-haired One in a soft meadow amid spring flowers. And when Perseus cut off her head, there sprang forth great Chrysaor and the horse Pegasus who is so called because he was born near the springs of Ocean; and that other, because he held a golden blade3in his hands. Now Pegasus flew away and left the earth, the mother of flocks, and came to the deathless gods: and he dwells in the house of Zeus and brings to wise Zeus the thunder and lightning&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hes. Th. 280](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hes.%20Th.%20280&amp;lang=original)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="868" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="259" RevisionGUID="e626a390-5e35-4059-b8ab-6502e304ea80" CreationDate="2015-04-30T17:17:39.400" UserId="31" Text="Coins (specifically a type called an [obol][1] or obolos) were left on the body or placed [in the mouths][2] of the dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The dead give Charon the coin, which shows they have had proper funeral rites and therefore deserve to be transported to Hades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Aenid by Vergil, Chapter 6][5] has this to say&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Why some were ferried o'er, and some refus'd.&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Son of Anchises, offspring of the gods,&quot;&#xD;&#xA;The Sibyl said, &quot;you see the Stygian floods,&#xD;&#xA;The sacred stream which heav'n's imperial state&#xD;&#xA;Attests in oaths, and fears to violate.&#xD;&#xA;The ghosts rejected are th' unhappy crew&#xD;&#xA;Depriv'd of sepulchers and fun'ral due:&#xD;&#xA;The boatman, Charon; those, the buried host,&#xD;&#xA;He ferries over to the farther coast;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Despite having neither coin, nor being dead, [Heracles managed to cross][3] as did [Orpheus][4] and various other heroes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obol_%28coin%29#Currency&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://archive.org/stream/callimachuslycop00calluoft/callimachuslycop00calluoft_djvu.txt&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.mythweb.com/encyc/entries/heracles.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Ni-Pa/Orpheus.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://classics.mit.edu/Virgil/aeneid.6.vi.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="869" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="160" RevisionGUID="a5e60391-3e07-4387-a04f-a459f6124c4b" CreationDate="2015-04-30T17:20:05.973" UserId="57" Comment="added 504 characters in body" Text="In pseudo-Apollodorus' version, Medusa's sisters sought revenge on Perseus, who escaped them by using the [Cap of Hades][1] (which rendered its wearer invisible): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So Perseus put the head of Medusa in the wallet (kibisis) and went back again; but the Gorgons started up from their slumber and pursued Perseus: but they could not see him on account of the cap, for he was hidden by it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Apollod. 2.4.3](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D2%3Achapter%3D4%3Asection%3D3)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, at least according to Hesiod, Medusa's sister were immortal:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And again, Ceto bore to Phorcys the fair-cheeked Graiae, sisters grey from their birth: and both deathless gods and men who walk on earth call them Graiae, Pemphredo well-clad, and saffron-robed Enyo, and the Gorgons who dwell beyond glorious Ocean in the frontier land towards Night where are the clear-voiced Hesperides, Sthenno, and Euryale, and Medusa who suffered a woeful fate: she was mortal, but the two were undying and grew not old.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hes. Th. 275](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hes.+Th.+275&amp;fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cap_of_invisibility" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="870" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="258" RevisionGUID="07c6f760-2d7b-44c4-8820-60137a3802b0" CreationDate="2015-04-30T17:31:48.037" UserId="57" Comment="edited body" Text="It was looking _directly_ into Medusa's eyes that would turn a mortal to stone, not the whole of her face. Using the shield as a mirror meant that even if Medusa's gaze fell upon Perseus, it would be at an ankle. Not that it matter in the end, as Perseus was lucky enough to catch Medusa and her sisters sleeping:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But the Gorgons had heads twined about with the scales of dragons, and great tusks like swine's, and brazen hands, and golden wings, by which they flew; and they turned to stone such as beheld them. So Perseus stood over them as they slept, and while Athena guided his hand and he looked with averted gaze on a brazen shield, in which he beheld the image of the Gorgon,5 he beheaded her. When her head was cut off, there sprang from the Gorgon the winged horse Pegasus and Chrysaor, the father of Geryon; these she had by Poseidon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Apollod. 2.4.2](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D2%3Achapter%3D4%3Asection%3D2#note6)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It should be noted, however, that Hesiod doesn't mention the shield at all: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And again, Ceto bore to Phorcys the fair-cheeked Graiae, sisters grey from their birth: and both deathless gods and men who walk on earth call them Graiae, Pemphredo well-clad, and saffron-robed Enyo, and the Gorgons who dwell beyond glorious Ocean in the frontier land towards Night where are the clear-voiced Hesperides, Sthenno, and Euryale, and Medusa who suffered a woeful fate: she was mortal, but the two were undying and grew not old. With her lay the Dark-haired One in a soft meadow amid spring flowers. And when Perseus cut off her head, there sprang forth great Chrysaor and the horse Pegasus who is so called because he was born near the springs of Ocean; and that other, because he held a golden blade in his hands. Now Pegasus flew away and left the earth, the mother of flocks, and came to the deathless gods: and he dwells in the house of Zeus and brings to wise Zeus the thunder and lightning&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hes. Th. 280](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hes.%20Th.%20280&amp;lang=original)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="872" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="260" RevisionGUID="0dcbdd36-f979-406a-9e8d-1853bacac6c1" CreationDate="2015-04-30T18:19:38.830" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="873" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="261" RevisionGUID="c8852aa8-3295-4260-ae3c-914b5e2f2277" CreationDate="2015-04-30T18:19:38.830" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="874" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="262" RevisionGUID="d078ae71-175e-4277-ae83-0b688d4e3268" CreationDate="2015-04-30T18:21:35.373" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="875" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="263" RevisionGUID="3b234633-fdbc-46a2-b9d8-d17c7f17acba" CreationDate="2015-04-30T18:21:35.373" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="876" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="264" RevisionGUID="40984bf1-8dd0-427b-ace3-9d61f3067620" CreationDate="2015-04-30T18:30:18.307" UserId="53" Text="Atlantis is a mythic civilisation lost underwater according to European mythology.  &#xD;&#xA;The Continent of Mu is a mythic civilisation lost underwater according to pre-columbian South American mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The myths of Mu were researched and published by Churchward in the 1920s.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any common details between the two lost civilisations?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="877" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="264" RevisionGUID="40984bf1-8dd0-427b-ace3-9d61f3067620" CreationDate="2015-04-30T18:30:18.307" UserId="53" Text="What parallels are there beween the myths of Atlantis and Mu?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="878" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="264" RevisionGUID="40984bf1-8dd0-427b-ace3-9d61f3067620" CreationDate="2015-04-30T18:30:18.307" UserId="53" Text="|atlantis|mu|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="879" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="265" RevisionGUID="a1b60a9c-63ee-4120-a192-370234255819" CreationDate="2015-04-30T18:31:30.887" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="880" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="266" RevisionGUID="3f58cac3-1511-4cfc-b50e-101163708cb3" CreationDate="2015-04-30T18:31:30.887" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="881" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="267" RevisionGUID="57e84f44-9a0a-4d7f-8f6d-54bc70fe911a" CreationDate="2015-04-30T18:33:55.663" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="882" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="268" RevisionGUID="1fb21a5b-894f-409a-ac27-5bf7c4aa9acf" CreationDate="2015-04-30T18:33:55.663" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="883" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="196" RevisionGUID="b0e5ccbf-3929-47e6-b93b-bbec8597fbf6" CreationDate="2015-04-30T18:35:07.020" UserId="58" Comment="added 497 characters in body" Text="Both the Dutch and the English wikipedia pages state that Loki is the son of Fárbauti and Laufey, who are both giants (Jötun). Loki is a Jötun, a giant, as well. The Dutch page adds that he is also a blood brother to Odin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The fact that Loki can shift shape - and can even change his sex while doing so, as (s)he did when (s)he gave birth to Sleipnir - does not alter the fact that he is a giant. It is simply his special gift, which fits his nature as a trickster deity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, he is still counted as one of the Aesir. From the [Prose Edda on Project Gutenberg](https://www.gutenberg.org/files/18947/18947-0.txt):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;33. There is yet one who is numbered among the asas, but whom some call&#xD;&#xA;the backbiter of the asas. He is the originator of deceit, and the&#xD;&#xA;disgrace of all gods and men. His name is Loke, or Lopt. His father is&#xD;&#xA;the giant Farbaute, but his mother’s name is Laufey, or Nal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, at least in the Prose Edda, Loki is considered to be an Asa. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="884" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="269" RevisionGUID="e36e2cb7-9cc0-42d5-9d57-42946bfb3078" CreationDate="2015-04-30T19:03:00.913" UserId="79" Text="The Norse mythological texts record three primary places where the dead were perceived to go: **Helheim** (Old Norse Helheimr, “the home of the goddess Hel“), **Valhalla** (Old Norse Valhöll, “the hall of the fallen”), and **Folkvang** (Old Norse Fólkvangr, “the field of the people” or “the field of warriors”).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But they're indistinguishable and doesn't have any major differences between them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Valhalla is presided over by Odin, and to gain entrance to it, one must be chosen by him and his valkyries, the “choosers of the fallen.” &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarily, entrance to Folkvang is dependent upon being selected by Freya.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Valhalla is often depicted as a realm where distinguished warriors engage in a continuous battle, and just such a place is described, in important early sources, as being located beneath the ground – and, intriguingly, without the name “Valhalla” or a cognate anywhere in the account.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sub&gt;source: Ellis, Hilda Roderick. 1968. The Road to Hel: A Study of the Conception of the Dead in Old Norse Literature. p. 85-86. &lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;14. Folkvang is the ninth, and there Freyia arranges&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;the choice of seats in the hall;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;half the slain she chooses every day,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;and half Odin owns.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sub&gt;source: 1996 Carolyne Larrington in The Poetic Edda “Grimnir’s Sayings”&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only difference that is pointed out, is in the way that the dead are chosen to stay. Odin chooses for Valhalla, while Freya chooses for Folkvang.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="885" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="264" RevisionGUID="41d7dc8f-5666-4f34-9e52-8ad284cfa333" CreationDate="2015-04-30T19:11:34.937" UserId="56" Comment="Added cross-mythology tag" Text="|cross-mythology|atlantis|mu|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="886" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="264" RevisionGUID="41d7dc8f-5666-4f34-9e52-8ad284cfa333" CreationDate="2015-04-30T19:11:34.937" Comment="Proposed by 56 approved by 79, 53 edit id of 58" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="887" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="270" RevisionGUID="b1f9d209-7cd1-4733-add5-a74cef10a140" CreationDate="2015-04-30T19:21:06.300" UserId="42" Text="The biggest one, to my mind, is that neither of them are really mythological, per se.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Atlantis was a fictional island made up by Plato.  It serves as the fictional antagonist to Plato's ideal state in &quot;Timaeus&quot; and &quot;Critias&quot;.  There remains debate on whether there was some other story (mythological or historical) that inspired Plato's island.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The continent of Mu sprang from a discredited translation used on a text that has now been shown to be a treatise on astrology.  From there, it was developed into a full-blown hoax by James Churchward." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="890" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="271" RevisionGUID="5cff4026-9284-414d-a592-1fc806ea6ca6" CreationDate="2015-04-30T19:36:11.047" UserId="79" Text="In the 45th stanza of the Poetic Edda, it is told that&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Lif and Lifthrasir survived Ragnarok by hiding “in Hoddmimir’s forest” (í holti Hoddmímis) and consuming the morning dew for their food. When the cataclysm passed and the cosmos began to reemerge, the couple went on to repopulate the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sub&gt;The Poetic Edda. Vafþrúðnismál, stanza 45.&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The expression Hoddmimis holt, is commonly interpreted to mean the World-Tree, based on a similar expression in Fjölsvinnsmál 20, which calls Yggdrassil, Mimameiðr, &quot;Mimir's Tree&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But, the prefix hodd-  means “hoard” or “treasure” and Mimir is well-known as a collector of treasures.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Mimir is well-known to own a well that feeds Yggdrasil. Since he lives beneath it, the Tree can be called his. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore, metaphorically speaking, Lif and Lifthrasir, are precious treasures, gathered together and hidden underground like a seed which lies dormant through the winter waiting for spring.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;45. Lif and Lifthrasir&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; lie hidden&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; in the grove of Hoard-Mimir;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; the morning dews&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; they shall have as meat,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; from them generations will spring.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Váfþruðnismál 45&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The word &quot;lie hidden&quot; can also be interpreted as &quot;buried&quot; .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hence the entirety will be&#xD;&#xA;&gt;When the great fimbul-winter has passed, Lif and Lifthriasir will emerge from their hiding place and become the parents of a new race of men, without the need for a second act of creation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This type of metaphor is not unique in Germanic poetry.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore, since the holt &quot;hid&quot; or &quot;buried&quot; the two, they were able to survive.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Poetic Edda, at several times, mentions Lif and Lifthrasir as the `only surviving seeds of humanity`. Meaning, the rest of humanity were wiped out, leaving only the two as the sole survivors. &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="893" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="231" RevisionGUID="9906bc8d-ce53-4a66-83ec-48219836c6a5" CreationDate="2015-04-30T19:46:06.337" UserId="79" Comment="added 44 characters in body" Text="Well, Poseidon's relationship with Zeus was a rocky one. There have been instances where Poseidon is jealous about Zeus' position as the King of gods. However, the same instance is said to be inspired by a conflict of interests, as Poseidon was not satisfied with Zeus' rule. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Poseidon took once part in a minor conspiracy in heaven; for he, along with Hera and Athena, had agreed to put Zeus in bonds. However, he was saved by Briareus (one of the HECATONCHEIRES), whom Achilles' mother Thetis had called to Zeus' rescue; and by just squatting down close to him and through the mere display of his force, Briareus frightened Poseidon and the goddesses away.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Source: http://www.igreekmythology.com/poseidon.html#L1&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But, his views towards Zeus was not always filled with jealousy. There have been times when Poseidon helped Zeus with his troubles and also fought beside him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He allied himself with Zeus in the battles against the Giants and repeatedly helped Zeus’s lovers. For example, he calmed the sea so Zeus, disguised as a bull, could cross it with Europa. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Source: [Mythology 101: From Gods and Goddesses to Monsters and Mortals, Your Guide to Ancient Mythology](https://books.google.co.in/books?id=7x9EAgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA73&amp;lpg=PA73&amp;dq=poseidon+conspired+against+Zeus&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=VpWgrhJiWv&amp;sig=-6szBPKYyTd1m6C2kVmVKobAinI&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=7fpBVf32DsHYmAWPzYHgDA&amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;q=poseidon%20conspired%20against%20Zeus&amp;f=false)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Looking into the case more deeply, Poseidon was not overly jealous of his younger brother and had a sense of respect towards him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Book Eight, Hera comes to Poseidon and asks him to join forces with her against Zeus, who is aiding the Trojans. His response displays the way in which his attitudes can change quickly. &quot;But the Earth-Shaker growled at her in anger: 'Hera, mistress of babble that you are, what empty-headed talk is this? I would not dream of pitting all the rest of us against Lord Zeus. He overmasters all'&quot; (188). Poseidon had recently attempted to dethrone Zeus on his own, but now became angered at Hera for even mentioning the idea. He switches his opinion again soon after this, however. In Book Thirteen, he chooses to disregard Zeus' orders to stay out of the combat and intervenes on behalf of the Achaeans. &quot;Rancor within him deepened against Zeus… from the deep water, girdler of earth and shaker of earth, Poseidon came to arouse new spirit in the Argives&quot; (300). He went from conspiring against Zeus, to anger at the mere mention of opposing Zeus, and back to opposing Zeus himself. **Poseidon's attitudes towards Zeus here are not solid. Instead, they shift and sway, much like water does**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Source: [A History of Poseidon by Robert James Reese, 2002](http://robertjamesreese.com/essays/a-history-of-poseidon)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Further reading: http://www.maicar.com/GML/Poseidon.html&lt;/sup&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="894" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="196" RevisionGUID="31cb7df5-792e-4c37-aba9-d21eefd55601" CreationDate="2015-04-30T19:50:31.493" UserId="58" Comment="Added the reference about blood brothership. Striking out where Loki is a Jotun, starting to wonder if Jotun is more of an allegiance than a race." Text="Both the Dutch and the English wikipedia pages state that Loki is the son of Fárbauti and Laufey, who are both giants (Jötun). &lt;del&gt;Loki is a Jötun, a giant, as well.&lt;/del&gt; The Dutch page adds that he is also a blood brother to Odin. This comes from the [Edda](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14726/14726-h/14726-h.htm#Page_85)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 9. Odin! dost thou remember when we in early days blended our blood together? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The fact that Loki can shift shape - and can even change his sex while doing so, as (s)he did when (s)he gave birth to Sleipnir - does not alter the fact that he is a giant. It is simply his special gift, which fits his nature as a trickster deity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, he is still counted as one of the Aesir. From the [Prose Edda on Project Gutenberg](https://www.gutenberg.org/files/18947/18947-0.txt):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;33. There is yet one who is numbered among the asas, but whom some call&#xD;&#xA;the backbiter of the asas. He is the originator of deceit, and the&#xD;&#xA;disgrace of all gods and men. His name is Loke, or Lopt. His father is&#xD;&#xA;the giant Farbaute, but his mother’s name is Laufey, or Nal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, at least in the Prose Edda, Loki is considered to be an Asa. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="895" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="271" RevisionGUID="009d9474-22e4-4a47-8e43-ab93cb1060dd" CreationDate="2015-04-30T19:59:34.097" UserId="79" Comment="added 83 characters in body" Text="In the 45th stanza of the Poetic Edda, it is told that&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Lif and Lifthrasir survived Ragnarok by hiding “in Hoddmimir’s forest” (í holti Hoddmímis) and consuming the morning dew for their food. When the cataclysm passed and the cosmos began to reemerge, the couple went on to repopulate the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sub&gt;The Poetic Edda. Vafþrúðnismál, stanza 45.&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The expression Hoddmimis holt, is commonly interpreted to mean the World-Tree, based on a similar expression in Fjölsvinnsmál 20, which calls Yggdrassil, Mimameiðr, &quot;Mimir's Tree&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But, the prefix hodd-  means “hoard” or “treasure” and Mimir is well-known as a collector of treasures.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Mimir is well-known to own a well that feeds Yggdrasil. Since he lives beneath it, the Tree can be called his. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore, metaphorically speaking, Lif and Lifthrasir, are precious treasures, gathered together and hidden underground like a seed which lies dormant through the winter waiting for spring.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;45. Lif and Lifthrasir&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; lie hidden&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; in the grove of Hoard-Mimir;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; the morning dews&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; they shall have as meat,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; from them generations will spring.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;sup&gt;Váfþruðnismál 45&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The word &quot;lie hidden&quot; can also be interpreted as &quot;buried&quot; .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hence the entirety will be&#xD;&#xA;&gt;When the great fimbul-winter has passed, Lif and Lifthriasir will emerge from their hiding place and become the parents of a new race of men, without the need for a second act of creation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This type of metaphor is not unique in Germanic poetry.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore, since the holt &quot;hid&quot; or &quot;buried&quot; the two, they were able to survive.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Poetic Edda, at several times, mentions Lif and Lifthrasir as the `only surviving seeds of humanity`. Meaning, the rest of humanity were wiped out, leaving only the two as the sole survivors. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;source: http://www.germanicmythology.com/PoeticEdda/GRM27.html&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="896" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="269" RevisionGUID="05aaf83f-983d-4d53-8887-859b192436b2" CreationDate="2015-04-30T20:03:19.700" UserId="79" Comment="added 108 characters in body" Text="The Norse mythological texts record three primary places where the dead were perceived to go: **Helheim** (Old Norse Helheimr, “the home of the goddess Hel“), **Valhalla** (Old Norse Valhöll, “the hall of the fallen”), and **Folkvang** (Old Norse Fólkvangr, “the field of the people” or “the field of warriors”).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But they're indistinguishable and doesn't have any major differences between them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Valhalla is presided over by Odin, and to gain entrance to it, one must be chosen by him and his valkyries, the “choosers of the fallen.” &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarily, entrance to Folkvang is dependent upon being selected by Freya.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Valhalla is often depicted as a realm where distinguished warriors engage in a continuous battle, and just such a place is described, in important early sources, as being located beneath the ground – and, intriguingly, without the name “Valhalla” or a cognate anywhere in the account.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sub&gt;source: Ellis, Hilda Roderick. 1968. The Road to Hel: A Study of the Conception of the Dead in Old Norse Literature. p. 85-86. &lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;14. Folkvang is the ninth, and there Freyia arranges&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;the choice of seats in the hall;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;half the slain she chooses every day,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;and half Odin owns.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sub&gt;source: 1996 Carolyne Larrington in The Poetic Edda “Grimnir’s Sayings”&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only difference that is pointed out, is in the way that the dead are chosen to stay. Odin chooses for Valhalla, while Freya chooses for Folkvang.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;source: [Norse-Mythology.org](http://norse-mythology.org/concepts/death-and-the-afterlife/)&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="897" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="272" RevisionGUID="db1f4e01-ba41-4062-a2eb-db87fb069672" CreationDate="2015-04-30T20:44:57.343" UserId="119" Text="I do realise this may be more about history / sociology than about mythology per se...  &#xD;&#xA;I'm not really sure there is an actual answer to this, as a girl was subject to what her father (or later in life her husband) decided and her job was to comply.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rape was not so much a crime against a woman as it was against her father or husband. In many of the myths, the author is utterly unconcerned with what the female characters want, feel or desire.  &#xD;&#xA;A notable exception is made when it comes to goddesses." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="898" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="273" RevisionGUID="6ba377df-ea25-4199-8550-7d241006f227" CreationDate="2015-04-30T21:37:19.133" UserId="98" Text="This seems to be the answer as 12 is honored mathematically and religiously. In terms of math, it seems to be involved in lots of combinations as shown:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The numbers 1,2 and 3 are all prime numbers and are symbolic of creation through the holy trinity. The number 12 would be reduced in numerology as 1+2=3, which means that the number 12 is also symbolic of the trinity. According to the rules of music vibration, we know that octaves of the fundamental vibration are created through multiplication or division from the number two. Two times twelve is 24 and half of 12 is 6. It is interesting to note that all prime numbers greater than 3 (the original trinity of prime numbers) are properties of the number six. The formula for creating prime numbers is 6n + 1where n is any number and + 1 is symbolic of unity or the original cause. For example: 6*2 = 12 and 12 – 1 is 11 and 12 + 1 is 13 and 11 and 13 are prime numbers. 6 *3 is 18 and 18 – 1 is 17 and 18 + 1 is 19 and both 17 and 19 are prime numbers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Religiously, it is known as the symbolic of the creation of the universe as it represents the division or fractionating of unity (God) into twelve individual distinct vibrations or tones. Of course, there is more to the number 12 in the religious way, but there is simply too much.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source: http://www.sacredscience.com/ferrera/numbertwelve.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="899" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="274" RevisionGUID="89824799-3305-4b82-87c7-c5bcd9de56fb" CreationDate="2015-04-30T21:51:25.180" UserId="98" Text="Nope. Not even close (okay, a little bit).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to my [source][1], the symbol is actually a star (just one). It looks kinda confusing like a solar system or a Sun. To make a Sun, you must at least meet this regulation for this type of art:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The sun symbol always has either four arms plus wavy lines extending from a &quot;ball&quot; in the middle, or it is a ball with wavy lines.  VA 243 has no wavy lines.  It does not depict the sun.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact it is a star rather than our beloved Sun. As seen in the picture below, the picture you showed is a star as it has 6 - 8 points. This time it has 6 points. &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Caption: Below are examples of star symbols.  Stars could have 6, 7, or 8 pts in Sumero-Mesopotamian art (VA 243 has six):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;![enter image description here][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So your picture is a star, not a constellation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]:http://www.michaelsheiser.com/va_243%20page.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/wDGoz.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="904" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="275" RevisionGUID="d2c60bdc-008c-49b8-a27b-338c27204d61" CreationDate="2015-05-01T00:21:26.777" UserId="91" Text="Unlike modern monotheistic religions that only accept one, omnipotent and omniscient god, ancient Greek religion has a pantheon of fallible gods. Yet it was also well developed, where the pantheon has hierarchy (Zeus, king of gods) and lineage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was there ever a time and place where the religion evolved into a monotheistic form? That is, only accepting one god, rejecting the others as false ones or manifestations of the one true god. For example, ancient Egyptian religion briefly gave rise to [Atenism][1], the offshoot religion that states the sun-disc *Aten* was the only god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did a similar thing happen to Greek religion? If so, which god became the one? Or was it an amalgam?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atenism" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="905" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="275" RevisionGUID="d2c60bdc-008c-49b8-a27b-338c27204d61" CreationDate="2015-05-01T00:21:26.777" UserId="91" Text="Did Hellenistic religion ever become monotheistic?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="906" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="275" RevisionGUID="d2c60bdc-008c-49b8-a27b-338c27204d61" CreationDate="2015-05-01T00:21:26.777" UserId="91" Text="|greek|history|theology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="914" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="215" RevisionGUID="94a6830c-e620-45aa-aac4-b7335cd5c6c6" CreationDate="2015-05-01T01:55:15.943" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 44 characters in body" Text="In the Mayan creation myth Popol Vuh, the sport &quot;ball&quot; seems to play a special role in the story. For example, playing ball seems to have indicated a lack of respect in this section of the story:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As for One Hunahpu and Seven Hunahpu, they would merely play dice and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ball everyday. The four of them would pair off to oppose each other.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; When they gathered together to play in the ballcourt, the Falcon would&#xD;&#xA;&gt; arrive to watch over them. This Falcon was the messenger of Huracan,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Youngest Thunderbolt, and Sudden Thunderbolt. The face of the earth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was not far for him. Nor was Xibalba [the underworld] far for him. In an instant, he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; could return again to the sky with Huracan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now it was on the path leading to Xibalba where they played ball. Thus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the lords of Xibalba, One Death and Seven Death, heard them:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; “What is happening on the surface of the earth? They are just stomping&#xD;&#xA;&gt; about and shouting. May they be summoned here therefore. They shall&#xD;&#xA;&gt; come to play ball, and we shall defeat them. They have simply failed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to honor us. They have neither honor nor respect. Certainly they act&#xD;&#xA;&gt; arrogantly here over our heads,” said therefore all those of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Xibalba.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([the online version of Allen J. Christenson's translation][1])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But later in the story, to punish the denizens of Xibalba (after their defeat), a different set of heroes proclaim that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; you [habitants of Xibalba] shall be brought low and shall no longer be allowed to play ball.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Nicholson, Irene. *Mexican and Central American Mythology*, Page 61.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I may not be reading the story closely enough, but I feel like there's some sort of context that I'm missing out on. Could someone please elaborate on what role the sport ball plays in the Popol Vuh?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.mesoweb.com/publications/christenson/popolvuh.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="917" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="275" RevisionGUID="cecd600c-54c2-44c1-a1ff-71b5f9f8cbeb" CreationDate="2015-05-01T03:25:11.593" UserId="91" Comment="edited title" Text="Did ancient Greek religion ever become monotheistic?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="919" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="278" RevisionGUID="cabe8a15-4cc1-4f80-a202-ef73dfe57394" CreationDate="2015-05-01T03:40:00.320" UserId="151" Text="&gt; But my question is, what did Danae want? Did she want to mate with Zeus, or was she raped? Did she go in her prison willingly or voluntarily&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is a myth, within a culture where a woman was subordinate to the man, if not property of the man. Creating a personality for Danae means giving her an age. She was probably incarcerated at the signs of puberty. Would a child of 12 voluntarily go to prison, or decide to be pregnant? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now if golden rain is rape its another story. If the rain passing through the cracks became a man, who knows? the poor child might be so happy to see a face that she would fall in love." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="920" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="31" RevisionGUID="b53d376a-aaa8-4787-8361-e29cdee171f2" CreationDate="2015-05-01T04:08:53.080" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="&quot;magic-plant&quot; should not be a tag" Text="|sumerian|gilgamesh|flood-myth|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="921" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="31" RevisionGUID="b53d376a-aaa8-4787-8361-e29cdee171f2" CreationDate="2015-05-01T04:08:53.080" Comment="Proposed by 62 approved by 38, 46 edit id of 59" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="925" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="280" RevisionGUID="e5744961-0900-4252-b00b-f3210400c237" CreationDate="2015-05-01T04:44:00.077" UserId="91" Text="Zeus is a complex character; although he is chief among gods, with many noble qualities, he is also deeply flawed. Among various sites on the internet [1][1] [2][2] [3][3] [4][4], there's this passage which suggests that he is a *compilation of various supreme gods*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zeus was  mighty, glorious, awesome and wise, although he did show a certain degree of surprising foolishness and naiveness when it came to hiding his love affairs. **Some historians attribute this less than noble behavior of the &quot;noblest one of all&quot; to the fact that Zeus was most likely a compilation of many &quot;supreme gods&quot; from different areas.** When his worship spread to an area which already worshipped another god, some of that god’s qualities as well as his wife or lover were transferred to Zeus. Aside from the endless affairs Zeus was different from other gods in that he did not participate in the arguments and the resulting petty scheming that made up the daily activities of other gods. Being this wise ruler, he also demanded just and righteous action from men. Zeus was however vengeful, as can be seen in The creation of man by Prometheus, but only rightly so.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately, this passage is unsourced and those sites might all be plagiarising some unknown, original source.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is this assertion true, was Zeus a compilation of other gods, combining their qualities? If so, do we know which gods became lumped into Zeus, and what were they like?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythman.com/zeus01.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.allaboutturkey.com/gods2.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://zeusisachampion.weebly.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.zeus-publications.com/zeusgod.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="926" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="280" RevisionGUID="e5744961-0900-4252-b00b-f3210400c237" CreationDate="2015-05-01T04:44:00.077" UserId="91" Text="Was Zeus a compilation of gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="927" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="280" RevisionGUID="e5744961-0900-4252-b00b-f3210400c237" CreationDate="2015-05-01T04:44:00.077" UserId="91" Text="|greek|zeus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="930" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="281" RevisionGUID="8f0c3d52-95c9-45a9-9ea9-ccfcec3b9ac8" CreationDate="2015-05-01T06:09:44.497" UserId="79" Text="The plant Gilgamesh found was not a lotus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(emphasis mine)&#xD;&#xA;&gt;So Utanapishtim revealed to Gilgamesh another secret of the gods. **Under the sea** there is a wondrous plant, like a flower with **thorns**, that will return a man to his youth. Gilgamesh then opened the conduit, tied stones to his feet, plunged into the deep (Apsu), and retrieved the plant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;source: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sunrise/49-99-0/mi-wtst.htm&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lotus doesn't grow underwater. Neither does it have thorns. Also, lotus growing in a sea is highly unlikely because it doesn't favor the conditions needed for the lotus to exist.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is confirmed in another translation of the same text (emphasis mine).&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Then Utnapishtim spoke unto Gilgamesh (and said): “Gilgamesh, thou didst come here weary; thou didst labour and row. What now shall I give thee, that thou mayest return to thy country? I will reveal unto thee, Gilgamesh, a mystery of the gods I will announce unto thee. There is a **plant resembling buckthorn**; its **thorn** stings like that of a bramble. When thy hands can reach that plant, then thy hands will hold that which gives life everlasting.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;source: http://www.jasoncolavito.com/epic-of-gilgamesh.html&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the plant Gilgamesh found was most probably a species of [**Rhamnus**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhamnus_(genus)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A myth related to the plant that Gilgamesh found is related to the snakes (emphasis mine):&#xD;&#xA;&gt;At twenty double-leagues they then took a meal: and at thirty double-leagues they took a rest. And Gilgamesh saw a well wherein was cool water; he stepped into it and bathed in the water. **A serpent smelled the sweetness of the plant and darted out; he took the plant away, and as he turned back to the well, he sloughed his skin**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;source:http://www.jasoncolavito.com/epic-of-gilgamesh.html&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This myth serves as an explanation to the skin shedding of the snakes. By implying (indirectly) that the snakes achieved eternal youth &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="932" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="282" RevisionGUID="43206822-7e2a-4d42-9857-6f6dafb21ace" CreationDate="2015-05-01T06:59:33.140" UserId="91" Text="The [Yellow Emperor][1] is the legendary first ruler of China and originator of [Huaxia Chinese civilisation][2], reigning during 2698–2598 BC, and as recently as 1920s he was regarded by most Chinese as a real figure. Modern scholars cast doubt on his historicity, and nowadays most consider him to be a former god, transformed into a human figure during the Warring States era, although some still regard him as a legendary cultural hero, in the manner of [Lu Ban][3] who has numerous inventions attributed to.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If the Yellow Emperor was originally a god, which god was he supposed to be? [Yang Kuan][4] argues that he is a transformation of [Shangdi][5], the supreme god. Is there any evidence for what kind of god the Yellow Emperor was? What are the main scholarly theories on this matter?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Emperor&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huaxia&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lu_Ban&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yang_Kuan&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shangdi" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="933" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="282" RevisionGUID="43206822-7e2a-4d42-9857-6f6dafb21ace" CreationDate="2015-05-01T06:59:33.140" UserId="91" Text="What kind of god was the Yellow Emperor?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="934" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="282" RevisionGUID="43206822-7e2a-4d42-9857-6f6dafb21ace" CreationDate="2015-05-01T06:59:33.140" UserId="91" Text="|chinese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="939" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="283" RevisionGUID="3cd4c35d-1f43-4770-8865-a3bbf0630392" CreationDate="2015-05-01T09:24:32.890" UserId="57" Text="I was browsing Wikipedia and came upon three different variations for Ra's origins: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - In the former version, a mound arises from the waters. An egg was laid upon this mound by a celestial bird. The egg contained Ra. In some variants, the egg is laid by a cosmic goose. However, the egg was also said to have been a gift from Thoth, and laid by an ibis, the bird with which he was associated. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Later, when Atum had become assimilated into Ra as Atum-Ra, the belief that Atum emerged from a (blue) lotus bud, in the Ennead cosmogony, was adopted and attached to Ra. The lotus was said to have arisen from the waters after the explosive interaction as a bud, which floated on the surface, and slowly opened its petals to reveal the beetle, Khepri, inside. Khepri, an aspect of Ra representing the rising sun, immediately turns into a weeping boy – Nefertum, whose tears form the creatures of the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Ogdoad: In_Egyptian_mythology](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogdoad#In_Egyptian_mythology)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Ptah is rarely mentioned in the literature of Old Kingdom pyramids. This is believed by some to be a result of the Ra-worshipping people of Heliopolis being the main writers of these inscriptions. Followers of Ra were known to be jealous of Ptah. While some believed that Ra is self-created, others believed that Ptah created him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Ra: Rival_gods](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra#Rival_gods)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Given Ra's popularity and central position in Egyptian mythology, I would have assumed his origin story would be somewhat standardized. Local variations are to be expected, of course, but I couldn't find any information on which one stood out - if any." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="940" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="283" RevisionGUID="3cd4c35d-1f43-4770-8865-a3bbf0630392" CreationDate="2015-05-01T09:24:32.890" UserId="57" Text="What was the more prominent of Ra's origins stories?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="941" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="283" RevisionGUID="3cd4c35d-1f43-4770-8865-a3bbf0630392" CreationDate="2015-05-01T09:24:32.890" UserId="57" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="942" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="284" RevisionGUID="5eb15f6b-01ae-460c-9f06-0f17dbebf3b1" CreationDate="2015-05-01T10:03:13.900" UserId="57" Text="No, at least not that we know of. If there was a monotheistic cult in ancient Greece, it certainly wasn't as popular as Atenism. There are traces of monotheistic thought in Platonism (e.g. the [Euthyphro dilemma][1]), but that's more about philosophy than religion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's one theory, put forth by Elizabeth Kessler in _Dionysian Monotheism in Nea Paphos_ that &quot;two monotheistic religions, Dionysian and Christian, existed contemporaneously in [Nea Paphos][2] during the 4th century C.E.&quot;. The only evidence cited, however, is a mosaic where Dionysus is the central figure, so I'll take this with a grain of salt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paphos" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="943" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="283" RevisionGUID="8a773aed-e00b-43c4-ba82-c13c5ec7d8c9" CreationDate="2015-05-01T10:33:16.973" UserId="57" Comment="edited body" Text="I was browsing Wikipedia and came upon three different variations for Ra's origins: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - In the former version, a mound arises from the waters. An egg was laid upon this mound by a celestial bird. The egg contained Ra. In some variants, the egg is laid by a cosmic goose. However, the egg was also said to have been a gift from Thoth, and laid by an ibis, the bird with which he was associated. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Later, when Atum had become assimilated into Ra as Atum-Ra, the belief that Atum emerged from a (blue) lotus bud, in the Ennead cosmogony, was adopted and attached to Ra. The lotus was said to have arisen from the waters after the explosive interaction as a bud, which floated on the surface, and slowly opened its petals to reveal the beetle, Khepri, inside. Khepri, an aspect of Ra representing the rising sun, immediately turns into a weeping boy – Nefertum, whose tears form the creatures of the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Ogdoad: In Egyptian mythology](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogdoad#In_Egyptian_mythology)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Ptah is rarely mentioned in the literature of Old Kingdom pyramids. This is believed by some to be a result of the Ra-worshipping people of Heliopolis being the main writers of these inscriptions. Followers of Ra were known to be jealous of Ptah. While some believed that Ra is self-created, others believed that Ptah created him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Ra: Rival gods](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra#Rival_gods)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Given Ra's popularity and central position in Egyptian mythology, I would have assumed his origin story would be somewhat standardized. Local variations are to be expected, of course, but I couldn't find any information on which one stood out - if any." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="945" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="242" RevisionGUID="7a78e3de-8f43-42ec-b8d4-999be829bd0a" CreationDate="2015-05-01T10:38:02.247" UserId="165" Comment="added tag." Text="|greek|gods|zeus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="946" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="242" RevisionGUID="7a78e3de-8f43-42ec-b8d4-999be829bd0a" CreationDate="2015-05-01T10:38:02.247" Comment="Proposed by 165 approved by 79, 36 edit id of 60" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="947" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="286" RevisionGUID="ac16e4e4-92e7-4eb2-a98c-91aa671e716a" CreationDate="2015-05-01T10:45:18.403" UserId="32" Text="I have been exposed to some different Native American mythologies and there seem to be many differences.  Are there any beliefs or stories that they all share?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Question is limited to tribes who's information has survived to current times.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="948" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="286" RevisionGUID="ac16e4e4-92e7-4eb2-a98c-91aa671e716a" CreationDate="2015-05-01T10:45:18.403" UserId="32" Text="Are there any points of mythology/religion that all Native Americans have in common?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="949" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="286" RevisionGUID="ac16e4e4-92e7-4eb2-a98c-91aa671e716a" CreationDate="2015-05-01T10:45:18.403" UserId="32" Text="|native-american|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="951" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="287" RevisionGUID="1d73aee4-1cac-40e1-ab43-30a816ed249a" CreationDate="2015-05-01T10:57:58.023" UserId="53" Text="During the Dreamtime, the Wondjina (or Wandjina) are said to have come to Earth and created the landscape.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How did they travel?  Were they able to move independently or did they ride on some other creature?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="952" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="287" RevisionGUID="1d73aee4-1cac-40e1-ab43-30a816ed249a" CreationDate="2015-05-01T10:57:58.023" UserId="53" Text="How did the Wondjina travel in the Dreamtime?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="953" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="287" RevisionGUID="1d73aee4-1cac-40e1-ab43-30a816ed249a" CreationDate="2015-05-01T10:57:58.023" UserId="53" Text="|australian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="954" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="284" RevisionGUID="44f4f512-f9dd-43a2-8203-0dff60091fc5" CreationDate="2015-05-01T11:14:22.057" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="No, at least not that we know of. If there was a monotheistic cult in ancient Greece, it certainly wasn't as popular as Atenism. There are traces of monotheistic thought in Platonism (e.g. the [Euthyphro dilemma][1]), but that's more about philosophy than religion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's one theory, put forth by Elizabeth Kessler in _Dionysian Monotheism in Nea Paphos_ that &quot;two monotheistic religions, Dionysian and Christian, existed contemporaneously in [Nea Paphos][2] during the 4th century C.E.&quot;. The only evidence cited, however, is a mosaic where Dionysus is the central figure, so I'd take this with a grain of salt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paphos" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="955" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="229" RevisionGUID="064d71df-7410-428f-814d-976e16545b05" CreationDate="2015-05-01T11:28:11.847" UserId="57" Comment="there's no need for the internal references" Text="When the Argonauts reached Crete, Talos - the bronze guardian of [Europa](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_%28mythology%29) - managed to push them back to the sea with ease. The Argonauts were desperate for food and water, and Medea decided to use her magic to kill Talos. She &quot;sent forth baneful phantoms&quot; and as Talos was trying to stop them from reaching [Dikti](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dikti) (Europa's hideout), he accidentaly &quot;grazed his ankle on a pointed crag&quot;, releasing the [ichor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichor) from his single vein. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's the story, as told in [Argonautica](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argonautica): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Talos, the man of bronze, as he broke off rocks from the hard cliff, stayed them from fastening hawsers to the shore, when they came to the roadstead of Dicte's haven. He was of the stock of bronze, of the men sprung from ash-trees, the last left among the sons of the gods; and the son of Cronos gave him to Europa to be the warder of Crete and to stride round the island thrice a day with his feet of bronze. Now in all the rest of his body and limbs was he fashioned of bronze and invulnerable; but beneath the sinew by his ankle was a blood-red vein; and this, with its issues of life and death, was covered by a thin skin. So the heroes, though outworn with toil, quickly backed their ship from the land in sore dismay. And now far from Crete would they have been borne in wretched plight, distressed both by thirst and pain, had not Medea addressed them as they turned away:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Hearken to me. For I deem that I alone can subdue for you that man, whoever he be, even though his frame be of bronze throughout, unless his life too is everlasting. But be ready to keep your ship here beyond the cast of his stones, till he yield the victory to me.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thus she spake; and they drew the ship out of range, resting on their oars, waiting to see what plan unlooked for she would bring to pass; and she, holding the fold of her purple robe over her cheeks on each side, mounted on the deck; and Aeson's son took her hand in his and guided her way along the thwarts. And with songs did she propitiate and invoke the Death-spirits, devourers of life, the swift hounds of Hades, who, hovering through all the air, swoop down on the living. Kneeling in supplication, thrice she called on them with songs, and thrice with prayers; and, shaping her soul to mischief, with her hostile glance she bewitched the eyes of Talos, the man of bronze; and her teeth gnashed bitter wrath against him, and she sent forth baneful phantoms in the frenzy of her rage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Father Zeus, surely great wonder rises in my mind, seeing that dire destruction meets us not from disease and wounds alone, but lo! even from afar, may be, it tortures us! So Talos, for all his frame of bronze, yielded the victory to the might of Medea the sorceress. And as he was heaving massy rocks to stay them from reaching the haven, he grazed his ankle on a pointed crag; and the ichor gushed forth like melted lead; and not long thereafter did he stand towering on the jutting cliff. But even as some huge pine, high up on the mountains, which woodmen have left half hewn through by their sharp axes when they returned from the forest—at first it shivers in the wind by night, then at last snaps at the stump and crashes down; so Talos for a while stood on his tireless feet, swaying to and fro, when at last, all strengthless, fell with a mighty thud. For that night there in Crete the heroes lay; then, just as dawn was growing bright, they built a shrine to Minoan Athena, and drew water and went aboard, so that first of all they might by rowing pass beyond Salmone's height.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Project Gutenberg EBook of The Argonautica, by Apollonius Rhodius](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/830/830-h/830-h.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="956" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="288" RevisionGUID="8bb4b24d-8a98-43e8-938a-e13cc22f0e33" CreationDate="2015-05-01T11:41:55.253" UserId="108" Text="In Maori mythology, the progenitor of humanity was [Tāne](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C4%81ne), a child of [Father Sky and Mother Earth](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangi_and_Papa). In the more popular version of the tale, Tāne - desiring a mate - created the first woman using the soil of Kurawaka. Her name is Hineahuone, and together they had a daughter, [Hinetītama](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hine-nui-te-p%C5%8D).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, Tāne married Hinetītama without the latter knowing his identity. When she finally found out, she fled in disgust to the underworld, becoming the goddess of death, Hinenuitepō. There she waits for her children to join her in after life. This is said to be the start of death for humans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But why would Tāne marry his own daughter rather than her mother, Hineahuone? How is it that Hinetītama did not know she was marrying her own father, and how did she find out?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="957" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="288" RevisionGUID="8bb4b24d-8a98-43e8-938a-e13cc22f0e33" CreationDate="2015-05-01T11:41:55.253" UserId="108" Text="Why did Tāne marry his own daughter?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="958" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="288" RevisionGUID="8bb4b24d-8a98-43e8-938a-e13cc22f0e33" CreationDate="2015-05-01T11:41:55.253" UserId="108" Text="|maori|polynesian|protoplast|new-zealand|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="959" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="245" RevisionGUID="a65d2b52-e9f6-4b65-bdee-2ecaa2a59ba8" CreationDate="2015-05-01T12:05:27.823" UserId="108" Comment="edited body" Text="Yes, we we do. In fact, none other than the [*Kojiki*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kojiki) itself states that its stories are collected from contemporary works (which have all been lost). This is because **the *Kojiki* was a compilation**. It was the product of a royal effort to collect &quot;historical&quot; texts in circulation at the time. And, more importantly, to edit it into a (relatively) coherent narrative (and propaganda).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the *Kojiki's* own preface,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 朕聞諸家之所藏帝紀及本辭，既違正實，多加虚僞。當今之時，不改其失，未經幾年，其旨欲滅。斯乃邦家經緯，王化之鴻基焉？故惟撰録帝紀，討覈舊辭，削僞、定實，欲流後葉&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; We heard that **chronicles collected by other families** are inaccurate and contains many fabrications. If this is not corrected now, within a few years the true message would dissipate. Therefore we compile this chronicle, examine the old tales to remove false narratives and pin down the truth for the future.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus clearly there were earlier works." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="960" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="288" RevisionGUID="4acd9799-82a8-4e26-b0ac-ad7664d3e69c" CreationDate="2015-05-01T12:37:06.337" UserId="108" Comment="added 1061 characters in body" Text="In Maori mythology, the progenitor of humanity was [Tāne](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C4%81ne), a child of [Father Sky and Mother Earth](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangi_and_Papa). In the more popular version of the tale, Tāne - desiring a mate - created the first woman using the soil of Kurawaka. Her name is Hineahuone, and together they had a daughter, [Hinetītama](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hine-nui-te-p%C5%8D).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, Tāne married Hinetītama without the latter knowing his identity. When she finally found out, she fled in disgust to the underworld, becoming the goddess of death, Hinenuitepō. There she waits for her children to join her in after life. This is said to be the start of death for humans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But why would Tāne marry his own daughter? How is it that Hinetītama did not know she was marrying her own father? Was her mother Hineahuone not around to tell her?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Excerpt from Hinetītama's origin story:*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Tanematua took her as a wife and in the Aonui month of the Orongonui season (Pipiri) she gave birth to Hinerauwharangi. After a while Hinetitama, watching her child with her husband, became curious as to who her father was, for she had no recollection of her father. She pondered on this for a few months and then asked Tanematua. He evasively referred her to the posts of her mother's house.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;A great dread came over Hinetitama as she began to suspect the truth and asked a second time. Tanematua did not reply, but made an unmistakable gesture. Hinetitama, so shocked, told Tanematua that she could not continue in the world of light but would seek the protection of her grandmother, Papatuanuku and would retire to the lower world.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Her reply epitomised her grief and abandonment, &quot;The path of Tahekeroa to the lower world shall be layed down for all time. From the Muriwaihou I will look up to you and our offspring moving in the world.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-- [*Korero o Nehera*](http://www.maori.org.nz/korero/)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="961" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="268" RevisionGUID="9ea5c270-e55c-4345-b46e-ab1fe1c50899" CreationDate="2015-05-01T13:10:22.617" UserId="53" Comment="added 97 characters in body" Text="An island in the Pacific containing an advanced civilisation said to have been lost underwater.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="962" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="268" RevisionGUID="9ea5c270-e55c-4345-b46e-ab1fe1c50899" CreationDate="2015-05-01T13:10:22.617" Comment="Proposed by 53 approved by 57, 55 edit id of 57" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="963" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="263" RevisionGUID="978aea84-33b1-48ee-be1b-727b49707e8a" CreationDate="2015-05-01T13:10:29.867" UserId="53" Comment="added 113 characters in body" Text="For questions regarding the stories within the holy book of the Quiche Maya people of pre-columbian South America" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="964" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="263" RevisionGUID="978aea84-33b1-48ee-be1b-727b49707e8a" CreationDate="2015-05-01T13:10:29.867" Comment="Proposed by 53 approved by 57, 55 edit id of 55" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="965" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="253" RevisionGUID="b55ef47d-f1e4-456c-bfc7-6e77c9178cf8" CreationDate="2015-05-01T13:10:35.757" UserId="98" Comment="added 64 characters in body" Text="For questions about the items that gods had in their possession." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="966" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="253" RevisionGUID="b55ef47d-f1e4-456c-bfc7-6e77c9178cf8" CreationDate="2015-05-01T13:10:35.757" Comment="Proposed by 98 approved by 55 edit id of 52" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="967" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="266" RevisionGUID="1e7f8dae-6375-4bce-920c-f1a8e21dee71" CreationDate="2015-05-01T13:10:39.260" UserId="53" Comment="added 78 characters in body" Text="A civilisation said to have been lost underwater according to Greek mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="968" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="266" RevisionGUID="1e7f8dae-6375-4bce-920c-f1a8e21dee71" CreationDate="2015-05-01T13:10:39.260" Comment="Proposed by 53 approved by 57, 55 edit id of 56" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="969" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="116" RevisionGUID="9187bda0-0a5f-468c-83fe-c8c4cd33bcb2" CreationDate="2015-05-01T13:10:47.637" UserId="98" Comment="added 48 characters in body" Text="For questions about Greek Mythology and legends." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="970" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="116" RevisionGUID="9187bda0-0a5f-468c-83fe-c8c4cd33bcb2" CreationDate="2015-05-01T13:10:47.637" Comment="Proposed by 98 approved by 55 edit id of 39" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="971" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="261" RevisionGUID="949f47e4-4726-4ed0-b8f6-4e535d82d67b" CreationDate="2015-05-01T13:10:52.720" UserId="53" Comment="added 105 characters in body" Text="For questions relating to the Celtic British mythology of King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="972" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="261" RevisionGUID="949f47e4-4726-4ed0-b8f6-4e535d82d67b" CreationDate="2015-05-01T13:10:52.720" Comment="Proposed by 53 approved by 57, 55 edit id of 54" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="973" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="289" RevisionGUID="f8255306-d4dd-42b5-9889-fbfaea42d114" CreationDate="2015-05-01T13:19:47.077" UserId="148" Text="Cats were worshipped in ancient Egypt. This can be clearly seen by the large amount of cat statues, mummified cats, ... that have been found. There is even a God specific for cats (Bastet).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But *why* were cats seen as sacred animals?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="974" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="289" RevisionGUID="f8255306-d4dd-42b5-9889-fbfaea42d114" CreationDate="2015-05-01T13:19:47.077" UserId="148" Text="Why are cats so important in old Egypt?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="975" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="289" RevisionGUID="f8255306-d4dd-42b5-9889-fbfaea42d114" CreationDate="2015-05-01T13:19:47.077" UserId="148" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="976" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="289" RevisionGUID="8ba0b68c-1134-439a-95ae-da294e56219b" CreationDate="2015-05-01T13:21:04.533" UserId="36" Comment="edited title" Text="Why are cats so important in Ancient Egypt?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="977" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="290" RevisionGUID="125f22b2-a55b-4b81-8667-270b011680e0" CreationDate="2015-05-01T13:41:13.703" UserId="36" Text="###Their association with [Bastet][1] coupled with their general usefulness in day to day life is the reason they were treated as they were&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Firstly, Bastet was the goddess of more than just cats, she was also the goddess of fire and pregnant women _(an odd combination)_. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Bastet was originally called [Mafdet][2] and was the [lion headed goddess][3] of judgement, justice, and execution. But as feelings towards cats changed, she became a much softer and beloved cat headed goddess.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**[The cat][4]**, while a beloved household pet, was a status symbol and in general an incredibly useful creature to have around :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Praised for controlling vermin and its ability to kill snakes such as cobras, the domesticated cat became a symbol of grace and poise.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They were _employed_ to protect royal granaries and food stores from rodents and snakes. If a cat was present anywhere, it was a certain sign of cleanliness and wealth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interestingly, they were so beloved that :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The export of cats from Egypt was so strictly prohibited that a branch of the government was formed solely to deal with this issue. Government agents were dispatched to other lands to find and return cats which had been smuggled out. It is clearly established that, by 450 BCE, the penalty in Egypt for killing a cat was death&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.egyptianmyths.net/bastet.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://egyptian-gods.org/egyptian-gods-mafdet/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.landofpyramids.org/images/sekhmet-8.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.ancient.eu/article/466/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="978" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="291" RevisionGUID="5fe299e2-d9e1-4e60-b0b9-8f3c0d671eb8" CreationDate="2015-05-01T13:41:35.107" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="979" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="292" RevisionGUID="f66a7259-ec85-4ffe-aa6c-887ed7d1c70b" CreationDate="2015-05-01T13:41:35.107" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="980" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="290" RevisionGUID="bcb0228d-0243-44c9-816f-302aa2274ed6" CreationDate="2015-05-01T13:46:16.293" UserId="36" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="###Their association with [Bastet][1] coupled with their general usefulness in day to day life is the reason they were treated as they were&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Firstly, Bastet was the goddess of more than just cats, she was also the goddess of fire and pregnant women _(an odd combination)_. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Bastet was originally called [Mafdet][2] and was the [lion headed goddess][3] of judgement, justice, and execution. But as feelings towards cats changed, she became a much softer and beloved cat headed goddess.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**[The cat][4]**, while a beloved household pet, was also a status symbol and in general an incredibly useful creature to have around :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Praised for controlling vermin and its ability to kill snakes such as cobras, the domesticated cat became a symbol of grace and poise.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They were _employed_ to protect royal granaries and food stores from rodents and snakes. If a cat was present anywhere, it was a certain sign of cleanliness and wealth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interestingly, they were so beloved that :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The export of cats from Egypt was so strictly prohibited that a branch of the government was formed solely to deal with this issue. Government agents were dispatched to other lands to find and return cats which had been smuggled out. It is clearly established that, by 450 BCE, **the penalty in Egypt for killing a cat was death**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And of course, some were so revered they were eventually [mummified][5].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.egyptianmyths.net/bastet.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://egyptian-gods.org/egyptian-gods-mafdet/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.landofpyramids.org/images/sekhmet-8.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.ancient.eu/article/466/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.britishmuseum.org/images/ps289496_l.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="982" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="293" RevisionGUID="85931497-5f10-4ab4-b2bd-6a7222fdbc23" CreationDate="2015-05-01T13:48:42.433" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="983" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="294" RevisionGUID="9839bf64-3752-4c0c-8cd5-c02296317abc" CreationDate="2015-05-01T13:48:42.433" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="984" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="295" RevisionGUID="824bba0d-b303-4cc7-ae85-eeb745616110" CreationDate="2015-05-01T13:58:06.343" UserId="11" Text="I think it's just **who he was**. Here is an excerpt of his description in &#xD;&#xA;[A Concise Encyclopedia of Maori Myth and Legend](http://www.amazon.com/Concise-Encyclopedia-Maori-Myth-Legend/dp/0908812566):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Since the word tāne ordinarily means 'male, husband, lover,' Tāne's name is a personification, Male. In the myths relating to him, male energy is presented as having shaped the world and created the life forms that belong to the land. Every human man - every tāne - who fathered a child was re-enacting the occasion on which Tāne, having obtained a wife, fathered the first of his children.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He married women because that was the essence of who he was. This is probably also the legend that taught the Maori not to commit incest - in order to teach a lesson, you need to have a story that says why it's a bad idea; marry your daughter, and she will become the Goddess of the Underworld!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="988" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="296" RevisionGUID="c7e0df90-004b-474e-b426-601b66acea8b" CreationDate="2015-05-01T14:26:51.893" UserId="65" Text="Medusa was a mythical creature that could turn all living beings into stone. However why was her hair made into snakes? Was it Medusa's eyes that turned people or the snakes'?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="989" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="296" RevisionGUID="c7e0df90-004b-474e-b426-601b66acea8b" CreationDate="2015-05-01T14:26:51.893" UserId="65" Text="Medusa's head of snakes" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="990" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="296" RevisionGUID="c7e0df90-004b-474e-b426-601b66acea8b" CreationDate="2015-05-01T14:26:51.893" UserId="65" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="992" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="290" RevisionGUID="b35af34a-c697-460e-9c4e-26edf9f55b10" CreationDate="2015-05-01T14:30:06.610" UserId="36" Comment="deleted 9 characters in body" Text="###Their association with [Bastet][1] coupled with their general usefulness in day to day life is the reason they were treated as they were&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Bastet was the goddess of more than just cats, she was also the goddess of fire and pregnant women _(an odd combination)_. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Bastet was originally called [Mafdet][2] and was the [lion headed goddess][3] of judgement, justice, and execution. But as feelings towards cats changed, she became a much softer and beloved cat headed goddess.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**[The cat][4]**, while a beloved household pet, was also a status symbol and in general an incredibly useful creature to have around :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Praised for controlling vermin and its ability to kill snakes such as cobras, the domesticated cat became a symbol of grace and poise.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They were _employed_ to protect royal granaries and food stores from rodents and snakes. If a cat was present anywhere, it was a certain sign of cleanliness and wealth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interestingly, they were so beloved that :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The export of cats from Egypt was so strictly prohibited that a branch of the government was formed solely to deal with this issue. Government agents were dispatched to other lands to find and return cats which had been smuggled out. It is clearly established that, by 450 BCE, **the penalty in Egypt for killing a cat was death**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And of course, some were so revered they were eventually [mummified][5].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.egyptianmyths.net/bastet.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://egyptian-gods.org/egyptian-gods-mafdet/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.landofpyramids.org/images/sekhmet-8.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.ancient.eu/article/466/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.britishmuseum.org/images/ps289496_l.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="996" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="298" RevisionGUID="4490fbb6-8ee1-432f-bdbc-f5e0249b3763" CreationDate="2015-05-01T14:33:37.430" UserId="79" Text="**1. Why did Tane Mahuta marry his own daughter?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He did not intend to marry her in the first place. His concerns for his daughter made him choose a path, which according to him, was ideal. He accepted a suggestion from a fellow god and utilized it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(emphasis mine)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;One day he (Tane Mahuta) called his brothers and said, &quot;When my daughter, Hinetitama grows up, who will she marry?&quot;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The gods looked at each other.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Why don’t you make her a husband out of earth?&quot; said Tu Matauenga, the god of war.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Choose one of us,&quot; sighed Tawhiri Matea, the god of the wind.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&quot;**Marry her yourself,**&quot; thundered Tangaroa, god of the Sea.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&quot;It’s your problem,&quot; they shouted,&quot;Leave us out of it,&quot; and they departed.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;So Tane Mahuta changed his form and became a simple man. When Hinetitama saw him she fell in love with him and became his wife. She was very happy. Children were born. Hinetitama was very busy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;source: https://www.visitzealandia.com/wp-content/.../edu-maori-myths-examples.pdf&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**2. How is it that Hinetītama did not know she was marrying her own father?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the above extract (emphasis mine),&#xD;&#xA;&gt;So Tane Mahuta **changed his form and became a simple man**. When Hinetitama saw him she fell in love with him and became his wife.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since Tane Mahuta changed his entire form, it made him unrecognizable to his daughter. Hence, she purely didn't know that her husband was also her father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**3. Was her mother Hineahuone not around to tell her?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm not sure about this part. While speaking of the relationship between Tane and Hinetitama, there is no mention of Hineahuone. So if I were to answer this question, it would be just pure speculation. &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="997" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="299" RevisionGUID="654979db-4b8b-4265-a5bb-3e3095c72ebe" CreationDate="2015-05-01T14:37:31.683" UserId="36" Text="###It was an especially cruel and specific punishment for [Medusa][1] as she was known for her beautiful golden hair &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Medusa's transformation from a beautiful golden haired priestess of Athena to not-so-beautiful Gorgan [snake-lady][2] was not instant, is was a gradual and drawn out punishment:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;She was originally a golden-haired, fair maiden, who, as a priestess of Athena, was devoted to a life of celibacy; however, after being wooed by Poseidon and falling for him, she forgot her vows and married him. For this offence, **she was punished by the goddess in a most terrible manner. Each wavy lock of the beautiful hair that had charmed her husband was changed into a venomous snake**;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.greekmythology.com/Myths/Creatures/Medusa/medusa.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs37/f/2008/285/0/c/Medusa_by_GENZOMAN.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="999" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="300" RevisionGUID="2d35ac75-8d70-4b28-9ba0-43023c9b6367" CreationDate="2015-05-01T14:48:35.170" UserId="65" Text="In Greek mythology the seasons change because Hades takes a beautiful girl down to the Underworld, her mother weeps and while in deep sorrow it becomes winter. But how according to the ROMANS do the seasons change?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1000" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="300" RevisionGUID="2d35ac75-8d70-4b28-9ba0-43023c9b6367" CreationDate="2015-05-01T14:48:35.170" UserId="65" Text="How (According to the Romans) do Seasons Change?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1001" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="300" RevisionGUID="2d35ac75-8d70-4b28-9ba0-43023c9b6367" CreationDate="2015-05-01T14:48:35.170" UserId="65" Text="|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1002" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="301" RevisionGUID="8c91d25f-297d-44a8-a265-503208fc364f" CreationDate="2015-05-01T14:50:57.823" UserId="65" Text="In Greek mythology Cronos ate his children. After he dies Zeus tries to eat his children. Why does everyone want to eat their children?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1003" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="301" RevisionGUID="8c91d25f-297d-44a8-a265-503208fc364f" CreationDate="2015-05-01T14:50:57.823" UserId="65" Text="What is the significance of eating your young?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1004" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="301" RevisionGUID="8c91d25f-297d-44a8-a265-503208fc364f" CreationDate="2015-05-01T14:50:57.823" UserId="65" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1006" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="302" RevisionGUID="9d946fde-5489-4a31-917a-379869edb40a" CreationDate="2015-05-01T14:53:55.147" UserId="65" Text="In Roman mythology Romulus and Remus were two brothers that were kept alive by suckling from a wolf. Romulus later kills Remus and that is how Rome got it's name. But were Romulus and Remus real people?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1007" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="302" RevisionGUID="9d946fde-5489-4a31-917a-379869edb40a" CreationDate="2015-05-01T14:53:55.147" UserId="65" Text="Romulus and Remus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1008" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="302" RevisionGUID="9d946fde-5489-4a31-917a-379869edb40a" CreationDate="2015-05-01T14:53:55.147" UserId="65" Text="|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1009" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="286" RevisionGUID="ed80b958-44bd-4ad5-8803-f26ad378c05c" CreationDate="2015-05-01T14:55:03.670" UserId="65" Comment="deleted 82 characters in body" Text="I have been exposed to some different Native American mythologies and there seem to be many differences.  Are there any beliefs or stories that they all share?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1010" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="298" RevisionGUID="55688bae-c736-4477-b0cf-5914324c1bda" CreationDate="2015-05-01T14:56:40.077" UserId="79" Comment="added 237 characters in body" Text="**1. Why did Tane Mahuta marry his own daughter?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He did not intend to marry her in the first place. His concerns for his daughter made him choose a path, which according to him, was ideal. He accepted a suggestion from a fellow god and utilized it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(emphasis mine)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;One day he (Tane Mahuta) called his brothers and said, &quot;When my daughter, Hinetitama grows up, who will she marry?&quot;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The gods looked at each other.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Why don’t you make her a husband out of earth?&quot; said Tu Matauenga, the god of war.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Choose one of us,&quot; sighed Tawhiri Matea, the god of the wind.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&quot;**Marry her yourself,**&quot; thundered Tangaroa, god of the Sea.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&quot;It’s your problem,&quot; they shouted,&quot;Leave us out of it,&quot; and they departed.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;So Tane Mahuta changed his form and became a simple man. When Hinetitama saw him she fell in love with him and became his wife. She was very happy. Children were born. Hinetitama was very busy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;source: [Maori Myths Examples](http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&amp;rct=j&amp;q=&amp;esrc=s&amp;source=web&amp;cd=2&amp;cad=rja&amp;uact=8&amp;ved=0CCUQFjAB&amp;url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.visitzealandia.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F03%2Fedu-maori-myths-examples.pdf&amp;ei=lpNDVcCFOIOcugSR4YHACw&amp;usg=AFQjCNEO8DseGfScdU7yxWCY2amCUDWqCQ&amp;bvm=bv.92189499,d.c2E) &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**2. How is it that Hinetītama did not know she was marrying her own father?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the above extract (emphasis mine),&#xD;&#xA;&gt;So Tane Mahuta **changed his form and became a simple man**. When Hinetitama saw him she fell in love with him and became his wife.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since Tane Mahuta changed his entire form, it made him unrecognizable to his daughter. Hence, she purely didn't know that her husband was also her father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**3. Was her mother Hineahuone not around to tell her?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm not sure about this part. While speaking of the relationship between Tane and Hinetitama, there is no mention of Hineahuone. So if I were to answer this question, it would be just pure speculation. &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1011" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="298" RevisionGUID="ab48f975-23c0-4f9f-a22e-0dbf2b07ea11" CreationDate="2015-05-01T15:11:41.907" UserId="79" Comment="added 297 characters in body" Text="**1. Why did Tane Mahuta marry his own daughter?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He did not intend to marry her in the first place. His concerns for his daughter made him choose a path, which according to him, was ideal. He accepted a suggestion from a fellow god and utilized it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(emphasis mine)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;One day he (Tane Mahuta) called his brothers and said, &quot;When my daughter, Hinetitama grows up, who will she marry?&quot;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The gods looked at each other.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Why don’t you make her a husband out of earth?&quot; said Tu Matauenga, the god of war.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Choose one of us,&quot; sighed Tawhiri Matea, the god of the wind.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&quot;**Marry her yourself,**&quot; thundered Tangaroa, god of the Sea.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&quot;It’s your problem,&quot; they shouted,&quot;Leave us out of it,&quot; and they departed.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;So Tane Mahuta changed his form and became a simple man. When Hinetitama saw him she fell in love with him and became his wife. She was very happy. Children were born. Hinetitama was very busy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;source: [Maori Myths Examples](http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&amp;rct=j&amp;q=&amp;esrc=s&amp;source=web&amp;cd=2&amp;cad=rja&amp;uact=8&amp;ved=0CCUQFjAB&amp;url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.visitzealandia.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F03%2Fedu-maori-myths-examples.pdf&amp;ei=lpNDVcCFOIOcugSR4YHACw&amp;usg=AFQjCNEO8DseGfScdU7yxWCY2amCUDWqCQ&amp;bvm=bv.92189499,d.c2E) &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a realistic perspective, (I think) Tane wanted the best for his daughter. He loved her very much and was proud of her.&#xD;&#xA;So, having the idea planted in his mind (courtesy of Tangaroa), he thought that would work out well.&#xD;&#xA;Because, he could keep a close eye on her and remain proud of her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**2. How is it that Hinetītama did not know she was marrying her own father?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the above extract (emphasis mine),&#xD;&#xA;&gt;So Tane Mahuta **changed his form and became a simple man**. When Hinetitama saw him she fell in love with him and became his wife.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since Tane Mahuta changed his entire form, it made him unrecognizable to his daughter. Hence, she purely didn't know that her husband was also her father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**3. Was her mother Hineahuone not around to tell her?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm not sure about this part. While speaking of the relationship between Tane and Hinetitama, there is no mention of Hineahuone. So if I were to answer this question, it would be just pure speculation. &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1012" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="247" RevisionGUID="5e74a03a-b8fd-4364-b5db-1f527b400ba4" CreationDate="2015-05-01T15:15:06.583" UserId="51" Comment="Improving question a bit." Text="Here is the picture of cylinder seal VA/243.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![cylinder seal VA/243][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Image credits: [Z. Sitchin][2]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This seal was named like that because it is number 243 in the collection of the Vorderasiatische Museum in Berlin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the correct meaning of the star symbol (including dots) shown below?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![cylinder seal VA/243 - star symbols][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is I guess explained in [A Brief Analysis of Cylinder Seal VA 243][4], however it's still not clear for me.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it referring to some specific constellation?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ceEZu.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sitchin.com/teapot.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/raQCN.png&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.sitchiniswrong.com/VA243seal.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1013" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="302" RevisionGUID="bff1a7e7-5d6f-4b03-b847-050afab9a280" CreationDate="2015-05-01T15:19:54.073" UserId="5" Comment="Put an actual question in the title." Text="Were Romulus and Remus real people?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1014" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="274" RevisionGUID="61b2ec46-b47b-413a-8aa4-07857138855b" CreationDate="2015-05-01T15:20:37.507" UserId="98" Comment="added 69 characters in body" Text="Nope. Not even close (okay, a little bit).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to my [source][1], the symbol is actually a star (just one). It looks kinda confusing like a solar system or a Sun. To make a Sun, you must at least meet this regulation for this type of art:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The sun symbol always has either four arms plus wavy lines extending from a &quot;ball&quot; in the middle, or it is a ball with wavy lines.  VA 243 has no wavy lines.  It does not depict the sun.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact it is a star rather than our beloved Sun. As seen in the picture below, the picture you showed is a star as it has 6 - 8 points. This time it has 6 points. &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Caption: Below are examples of star symbols.  Stars could have 6, 7, or 8 pts in Sumero-Mesopotamian art (VA 243 has six):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;![enter image description here][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So your picture is a star, not a constellation. It represents a star in the sky, even the dots are part of the star.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]:http://www.michaelsheiser.com/va_243%20page.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/wDGoz.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1015" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="296" RevisionGUID="6bd7eca5-903f-4f73-a2b2-6e862526278f" CreationDate="2015-05-01T15:21:10.540" UserId="5" Comment="Put an actual question in the title." Text="Why was Medusa's hair made of snakes?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1016" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="247" RevisionGUID="c9821d98-e51e-4cda-8815-30bf369f5e18" CreationDate="2015-05-01T15:21:58.847" UserId="51" Comment="Improving question a bit." Text="Here is the picture of cylinder seal VA/243.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![cylinder seal VA/243][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Image credits: [Z. Sitchin][2]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This seal was named like that because it is number 243 in the collection of the Vorderasiatische Museum in Berlin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the correct meaning of the star symbol (including 11 dots around) shown below?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![cylinder seal VA/243 - star symbols][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So in total [12][4] mysterious objects (I guess).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is I guess explained in [A Brief Analysis of Cylinder Seal VA 243][5], however it's still not clear for me.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And the star in the middle, is it our Sun or it's not?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If it's not, is it referring to some specific constellation?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ceEZu.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sitchin.com/teapot.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/VVWRX.png&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/257/51&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.sitchiniswrong.com/VA243seal.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1017" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="303" RevisionGUID="ca2b5601-bc68-44ce-8c49-dd5e16cbf87f" CreationDate="2015-05-01T15:39:46.127" UserId="51" Text="Humbaba was the guardian of the Cedar Forest and was fought by Gilgamesh.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some say Humbaba is a monstrous giant and some say he was a dangerous mechanical monster (like a robot).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example in [Flying Serpents and Dragons by R. A. Boulay][2] we can read:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it true that he was a robot? If it's not, what kind of being he/it was?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/QHnZy.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=2TtOjwtbXG8C&amp;pg=PA256&amp;lpg=PA256&amp;dq=Humbaba#v=onepage&amp;q=Humbaba&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1018" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="303" RevisionGUID="ca2b5601-bc68-44ce-8c49-dd5e16cbf87f" CreationDate="2015-05-01T15:39:46.127" UserId="51" Text="What kind of being was Huwawa?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1019" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="303" RevisionGUID="ca2b5601-bc68-44ce-8c49-dd5e16cbf87f" CreationDate="2015-05-01T15:39:46.127" UserId="51" Text="|sumerian|gilgamesh|beings|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1020" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="304" RevisionGUID="b7e8b515-99e7-408f-a65a-ec40a7572035" CreationDate="2015-05-01T15:42:19.933" UserId="31" Text="The idea of the Coyote Trickster god is pretty widespread. My copy of [The Book of the Navajo][1] contains &quot;The Tale of Coyote, the Troublemaker&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Coyote is also known to the Apache in the &quot;[Badger carries Darkness: Coyote and Bobcat scratch each other][2]&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A Cheyenne tale called &quot;[How he got tongue][3]&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And a Blackfoot Coyote tale called &quot;[Little Friend Coyote][4]&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He's known to the [Sioux][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A list of other tribes and legends can be found [here][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/The_Book_of_the_Navajo.html?id=Z8e2mfFJa-4C&amp;redir_esc=y&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.firstpeople.us/FP-Html-Legends/Badger_Carries_Darkness_Coyote_And_Bobcat_Scratch_Each_Other-Apache.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.angelfire.com/ca/Indian/HowHeGotTongue.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://riverwalkofancients.tripod.com/friendcoyote.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://nativeamericanregions.wikispaces.micds.org/Sioux+-+Stories,+Tradition+%26+Celebrations&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.native-languages.org/legends-coyote.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1021" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="305" RevisionGUID="bd444949-e606-41b3-b758-431fcf3b1c4b" CreationDate="2015-05-01T15:51:49.730" UserId="51" Text="There are similarities between the stories of [Noah][1] from the Bible and [Ziusudra][2] hero of the [Sumerian flood epic][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both stories describe a flood myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Based on what kind of information/similarities we can say that both stories describe the same [flood myth][4] and that Noah and Ziusudra are the same persons, or they're not?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziusudra&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_creation_myth&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1022" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="305" RevisionGUID="bd444949-e606-41b3-b758-431fcf3b1c4b" CreationDate="2015-05-01T15:51:49.730" UserId="51" Text="Are Noah and Ziusudra the same persons?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1023" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="305" RevisionGUID="bd444949-e606-41b3-b758-431fcf3b1c4b" CreationDate="2015-05-01T15:51:49.730" UserId="51" Text="|sumerian|mesopotamia|flood-myth|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1024" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="237" RevisionGUID="96874268-cc50-4a10-93d2-97cba16f3831" CreationDate="2015-05-01T15:55:16.890" UserId="51" Comment="Fixed tag name." Text="|mesopotamia|anunnaki|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1025" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="306" RevisionGUID="7c487e66-3ab2-470d-a726-d58ff7acadd2" CreationDate="2015-05-01T15:56:45.020" UserId="108" Text="Depends on what you mean, **but probably not**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most scholars would not consider them to be real. Their tale is too farfetched to be literally true, and in this sense they were not real. On the other hand, legends could be based on real events, so there might have been real historical figures who inspired the stories. You might, with a great deal of stretching, call them &quot;Romulus and Remus&quot;, but they probably bore no resemblance to the legends even if they actually exist.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact, names Romulus and Remus are thought to be [backformations](http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/back-formation#English). That is, Romulus' name was invented based on the the city's name of Rome.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; However, most scholars regard Romulus as a backformation from the name of the city, Rome.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The name of Romulus means simply 'Roman', cf. the two forms *Sicanus* and *Siculus*; Remus (who in the Latin tradition replaces the Rhomos of most Greek authors), if not a back-formation from local place-names such as Remurinus ager, Remona, is prossibly formed from Roma by false analogy with such doublets as *Kipvapa*, *Corcyra*, where the o is short.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Hornblower, Simon, and Antony Spawforth, eds. The Oxford classical dictionary. Vol. 3. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2003.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover, this is not regarded to be as old as the city's founding. This further diminishes the probability that the two brothers were historical, since if that were the case there should be more evidence of it existing in older times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;This legend, though probably as old as the late 4th cent. BC in one form or another, cannot be very old.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Hornblower, Simon, and Antony Spawforth, eds. The Oxford classical dictionary. Vol. 3. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2003.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's no way to know for certain today, but they were most likely fictional or at least very distorted from historical reality." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1026" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="304" RevisionGUID="a645d080-641f-419b-a6c5-3540b6ed90fc" CreationDate="2015-05-01T16:12:02.033" UserId="31" Comment="More tribes added" Text="The idea of the Coyote Trickster god is pretty widespread. My copy of [The Book of the Navajo][1] contains &quot;The Tale of Coyote, the Troublemaker&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Coyote is also known to the Apache in the &quot;[Badger carries Darkness: Coyote and Bobcat scratch each other][2]&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A Cheyenne tale called &quot;[How he got tongue][3]&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And a Blackfoot Coyote tale called &quot;[Little Friend Coyote][4]&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He's known to the [Sioux][5], the Caddo [in Why Coyote Stopped Imitating His Friends][6] and the Cherokee in [How the Bluebeard and the Coyote got their Color][7]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A list of other tribes and legends can be found [here][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/The_Book_of_the_Navajo.html?id=Z8e2mfFJa-4C&amp;redir_esc=y&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.firstpeople.us/FP-Html-Legends/Badger_Carries_Darkness_Coyote_And_Bobcat_Scratch_Each_Other-Apache.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.angelfire.com/ca/Indian/HowHeGotTongue.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://riverwalkofancients.tripod.com/friendcoyote.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://nativeamericanregions.wikispaces.micds.org/Sioux+-+Stories,+Tradition+%26+Celebrations&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.turtletrack.org/Issues01/Co03242001/CO_03242001_Coyote.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.artrainusa.org/downloads/10ep_appendix1.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.native-languages.org/legends-coyote.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1028" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="306" RevisionGUID="23ea1d9f-9e48-497b-b570-9e5034eb10d7" CreationDate="2015-05-01T16:29:11.330" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 65 characters in body" Text="Depends on what you mean, **but probably not**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most scholars would not consider them to be real. Their tale is too farfetched to be literally true, and in this sense they were not real. On the other hand, legends could be based on real events, so there might have been real historical figures who inspired the stories. You might, with a great deal of stretching, call them &quot;Romulus and Remus&quot;, but they probably bore no resemblance to the legends even if they actually exist.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact, the names Romulus and Remus are thought to be [backformations](http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/back-formation#English). That is, Romulus' name was invented based on the the city's name of Rome.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The name of Romulus means simply 'Roman', cf. the two forms *Sicanus* and *Siculus*; Remus (who in the Latin tradition replaces the Rhomos of most Greek authors), if not a back-formation from local place-names such as Remurinus ager, Remona, is possibly formed from Roma by false analogy with such doublets as *Kipvapa*, *Corcyra*, where the o is short.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Hornblower, Simon, and Antony Spawforth, eds. The Oxford classical dictionary. Vol. 3. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2003.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover, the legend is not regarded to be as old as the city's founding. A historical event should be better remembered when closer in time. Instead, the story as we know it developed later during the 3rd and 4th centuries BC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;This legend, though probably as old as the late 4th cent. BC in one form or another, cannot be very old.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Hornblower, Simon, and Antony Spawforth, eds. The Oxford classical dictionary. Vol. 3. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2003.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore, while there's no way to know for certain, the legendary Romulus and Remus are most likely fictional, or at least heavily distorted from historical reality." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1029" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="307" RevisionGUID="3f73b583-88ee-4823-b5ff-cbbf5ccccd08" CreationDate="2015-05-01T16:40:26.573" UserId="38" Text="![Clay Mask of Huwawa][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Clay mask of the demon Huwawa, [The British Museum] [2]. From Sippar, southern Iraq, about 1800-1600 BC.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Huwawa was a demonic creature, of neither mortal nor godly origin, created by Enlil to guard the forest of Lebanon : &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I never knew a mother who bore me, nor a father who brought me up! I was born in the mountains...  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He is described in *The Epic of Gilgamesh*, tablet 2, as:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Humbaba's roar is a flood, his mouth is death and his breath is fire! He can hear a hundred leagues away any [rustling?] in his forest!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He was not, however, a mechanical creature such as a robot, as such things did not exist in Ancient Mesopotamia. He had human characteristics, and a physical body which Gilgamesh could capture: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Huwawa bared his teeth at him [...] He tied up his arms like a captured man [...] Huwawa sat down and began to weep, shedding tears...  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He is also easily slayed by Enkidu:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Enkidu, full of rage and anger, cut his throat...  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Furthermore, Enlil adds further evidence to Huwawa's mortal characteristics when, upset by Huwawa's death, he cries out:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He should have eaten the bread that you eat, and should have drunk the water that you drink. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (all quotes from *[Gilgamesh and Huwawa][3]*) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He appears, then, to be a monstrous but mortal creature. Parallels have been drawn between the stories of Huwawa and Medusa(1), because of their similarities of a hero beheading a demonic creature. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;Source:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Clark Hopkins, &quot;Assyrian elements in the Perseus–Gorgon story,&quot; American Journal of Archaeology 38 (1934:341-ff)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/UbGbF.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/me/c/clay_mask_of_the_demon_huwawa.aspx&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr1815.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1030" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="308" RevisionGUID="f9a9d1aa-5f57-4680-be38-58a776cc6008" CreationDate="2015-05-01T16:44:50.100" UserId="51" Text="Were there any distinctive wearing which depicted Sumerian gods (Anunnaki) and their [ranks][1]? Like wearing helmets with horns?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Few examples:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [cylinder seal VA/243][2]&#xD;&#xA;- Akkadian Cylinder Seal of Adda (c. 2250 B.C.) with, left to right, Ninurta, Ishtar, Shamash, and Ea. From Dury, Art of the Ancient Near and Middle East, Abrams, NY&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  ![Akkadian Cylinder Seal of Adda (c. 2250 B.C.) with, left to right, Ninurta, Ishtar, Shamash, and Ea. From Dury, Art of the Ancient Near and Middle East, Abrams, NY.][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Akkadian Cylinder Seal (c. 2200 B.C. showing Gilgamesh slaying the bull of heaven, with Enkidu? Also from Dury; both in British Museum)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  ![Akkadian Cylinder Seal (c. 2200 B.C. showing Gilgamesh slaying the bull of heaven, with Enkidu? Also from Dury; both in British Museum.][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Image sources: [tulane.edu][5]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/237/51&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/247/51&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/6aBXX.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/s4j3O.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.tulane.edu/~danny/arch.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1031" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="308" RevisionGUID="f9a9d1aa-5f57-4680-be38-58a776cc6008" CreationDate="2015-05-01T16:44:50.100" UserId="51" Text="What kind of distinctive wearing depicted Sumerian gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1032" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="308" RevisionGUID="f9a9d1aa-5f57-4680-be38-58a776cc6008" CreationDate="2015-05-01T16:44:50.100" UserId="51" Text="|sumerian|gods|anunnaki|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1033" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="245" RevisionGUID="f3dd2ddb-8951-4977-8eb7-79f9e22b2ec1" CreationDate="2015-05-01T16:56:40.433" UserId="108" Comment="added 252 characters in body" Text="**We know they existed, but not much else.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact, none other than the [*Kojiki*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kojiki) itself states that its stories are collected from contemporary works (which have all been lost). This is because **the *Kojiki* was a compilation**. It was the product of a royal effort to collect &quot;historical&quot; texts in circulation at the time, to edit into a relatively coherent narrative. And propaganda.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the *Kojiki's* own preface,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 朕聞諸家之所藏帝紀及本辭，既違正實，多加虚僞。當今之時，不改其失，未經幾年，其旨欲滅。斯乃邦家經緯，王化之鴻基焉？故惟撰録帝紀，討覈舊辭，削僞、定實，欲流後葉&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; We heard that **chronicles collected by other families** are inaccurate and contains many fabrications. If this is not corrected now, within a few years the true message would dissipate. Therefore we compile this chronicle, examine the old tales to remove false narratives and pin down the truth for the future.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, it is certain there were earlier works, but unfortunately none has survived. The *Kojiki* (and later the [*Nihon Shoki*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihon_Shoki) were somewhat political in nature for justifying the legitimacy of the ruling house. Thus natural attrition due to time and lack of government patronage aside, contrarian records likely faced a hostile environment when it comes to preservation. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1034" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="307" RevisionGUID="35191aa4-77ca-4fb5-94e6-ac4bfe941ed5" CreationDate="2015-05-01T16:57:51.447" UserId="38" Comment="added 284 characters in body" Text="![Clay Mask of Huwawa][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Clay mask of the demon Huwawa, [The British Museum] [2]. From Sippar, southern Iraq, about 1800-1600 BC.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Huwawa was a demonic creature, of neither mortal nor godly origin, created by Enlil to guard the forest of Lebanon : &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I never knew a mother who bore me, nor a father who brought me up! I was born in the mountains...  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He is described in *[The Epic of Gilgamesh][3]*, tablet 2, as:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Humbaba's roar is a flood, his mouth is death and his breath is fire! He can hear a hundred leagues away any [rustling?] in his forest!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He was not, however, a mechanical creature such as a robot, as such things did not exist in Ancient Mesopotamia. He had human characteristics, and a physical body which Gilgamesh could capture: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they pulled out his insides including his tongue.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (tablet 5, *[The Epic of Gilgamesh][4]*) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Huwawa bared his teeth at him [...] He tied up his arms like a captured man [...] Huwawa sat down and began to weep, shedding tears...  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He is also easily slayed by Enkidu:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Enkidu, full of rage and anger, cut his throat...  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Furthermore, Enlil adds further evidence to Huwawa's mortal characteristics when, upset by Huwawa's death, he cries out:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He should have eaten the bread that you eat, and should have drunk the water that you drink. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (all quotes from *[Gilgamesh and Huwawa][5]* unless mentioned) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He appears, then, to be a monstrous but mortal creature. Parallels have been drawn between the stories of Huwawa and Medusa(1), because of their similarities of a hero beheading a demonic creature. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;Source:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Clark Hopkins, &quot;Assyrian elements in the Perseus–Gorgon story,&quot; American Journal of Archaeology 38 (1934:341-ff)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/UbGbF.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/me/c/clay_mask_of_the_demon_huwawa.aspx&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/mesopotamian/gilgamesh/tab2.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/mesopotamian/gilgamesh/tab5.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr1815.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1035" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="290" RevisionGUID="3a426fa3-df9d-42c2-a814-9dc066020272" CreationDate="2015-05-01T17:10:32.780" UserId="36" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="###Their association with [Bastet][1] coupled with their general usefulness in day to day life is the reason they were treated as they were&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Bastet was the goddess of more than just cats, she was also the goddess of fire and pregnant women _(an odd combination)_. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Bastet was originally called [Mafdet][2] and was the [lion headed goddess][3] of judgement, justice, and execution. But as feelings towards cats changed, she became a much softer and beloved cat headed goddess.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**[The cat][4]**, while a beloved household pet, was also a status symbol and in general an incredibly useful creature to have around :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Praised for controlling vermin and its **ability to kill snakes such as cobras**, the domesticated cat became a symbol of grace and poise.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They were _employed_ to protect royal granaries and food stores from rodents and snakes. If a cat was present anywhere, it was a certain sign of cleanliness and wealth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interestingly, they were so beloved that :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The export of cats from Egypt was so strictly prohibited that a branch of the government was formed solely to deal with this issue. Government agents were dispatched to other lands to find and return cats which had been smuggled out. It is clearly established that, by 450 BCE, **the penalty in Egypt for killing a cat was death**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And of course, some were so revered they were eventually [mummified][5].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.egyptianmyths.net/bastet.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://egyptian-gods.org/egyptian-gods-mafdet/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.landofpyramids.org/images/sekhmet-8.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.ancient.eu/article/466/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.britishmuseum.org/images/ps289496_l.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1036" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="305" RevisionGUID="3615ae4b-aa0b-4267-991f-4f8fa102c8e8" CreationDate="2015-05-01T17:12:32.250" UserId="51" Comment="Added tag." Text="|sumerian|mesopotamia|flood-myth|bible|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1037" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="309" RevisionGUID="176f9605-6190-4e0f-9138-46f2f4f720e1" CreationDate="2015-05-01T17:21:00.447" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="In ancient Egypt what did the Ba and the Ka represent? They were parts of the soul but why two parts?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1038" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="309" RevisionGUID="176f9605-6190-4e0f-9138-46f2f4f720e1" CreationDate="2015-05-01T17:21:00.447" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="In ancient Egypt what did the Ba and the Ka represent?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1039" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="309" RevisionGUID="176f9605-6190-4e0f-9138-46f2f4f720e1" CreationDate="2015-05-01T17:21:00.447" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="|egyptian|ancient|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1040" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="310" RevisionGUID="05b40beb-11d5-4a70-9964-50ce16f53ba3" CreationDate="2015-05-01T17:27:24.740" UserId="108" Text="The Romans believed the same thing, actually.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Roman version, [Ceres](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceres_(mythology)) is the goddess of agriculture and mother to [Proserpina](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proserpina), an obvious copy of the Greek [Persephone](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persephone). Like her Greek version, Proserpina was abducted by Pluto, and Ceres caused the earth to stop growing food until her daughter was returned at the behest of Jupiter, but not before eating seeds from the underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Most prominent [of Italian rites connected to fertility] were the annual rites to Ceres, which were **performed at all crossroads in the city by Roman *matronae***, commemorating the kidnap of Proserpina, and Ceres' search for her daughter which resulted in the story explaining the changing seasons.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Lennon, Jack J. *Pollution and Religion in Ancient Rome.* Cambridge University Press, 2013.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rome imported Persephone's story from the Greek colonies in southern Italy around 205 BC." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1041" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="311" RevisionGUID="8dc6038c-fac8-4c64-b333-40b884e1d607" CreationDate="2015-05-01T17:32:55.393" UserId="51" Text="On Anunnaki Wikipedia page we can read:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Their relation to the group of gods known as the Igigi is unclear – at times the names are used synonymously but in the Atra-Hasis flood myth the Igigi are the sixth generation of the gods who have to work for the Anunnaki, rebelling after 40 days and replaced by the creation of humans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further down:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jeremy Black and Anthony Green offer a slightly different perspective on the Igigi and the Anunnaki, writing that &quot;lgigu or Igigi is a term introduced in the Old Babylonian Period as a name for the (ten) &quot;great gods&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the Epic of Creation, it is said that there are 300 lgigu of heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this [answer][1] we can read that scientists believe that there could be as many as 750 Anunnaki.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore, what is the difference between Igigi and Anunnaki, can anybody elaborate that?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Were they different group of deities or Igigi were just the lower class of Anunnaki?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/221/51" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1042" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="311" RevisionGUID="8dc6038c-fac8-4c64-b333-40b884e1d607" CreationDate="2015-05-01T17:32:55.393" UserId="51" Text="What is the difference between Igigi and Anunnaki deities?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1043" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="311" RevisionGUID="8dc6038c-fac8-4c64-b333-40b884e1d607" CreationDate="2015-05-01T17:32:55.393" UserId="51" Text="|sumerian|anunnaki|gods|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1044" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="312" RevisionGUID="c0015751-7c35-4bc5-8f5f-7084266621b3" CreationDate="2015-05-01T17:35:38.880" UserId="51" Text="Did story of [Adam and Eve][1] from Book of Genesis is influenced by Sumerian story of [Enki][3] and [Ninti][2]?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On Wikipedia page about [Ninti][4] we can read:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Some scholars suggest that this served as the basis for the story of Eve created from Adam's rib in the Book of Genesis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also based on this [article][5] seems it is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can you elaborate what are the main clues which proves that theory? Or what evidence goes against it (if you think it isn't)?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If it's more likely, then Adam would refer to Enki and Eve to Ninti?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_and_Eve&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninti&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enki&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninti&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.meta-religion.com/World_Religions/Ancient_religions/Mesopotamia/Epic_of_gilgamesh/biblical_parallels_in_sumerian_l.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1045" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="312" RevisionGUID="c0015751-7c35-4bc5-8f5f-7084266621b3" CreationDate="2015-05-01T17:35:38.880" UserId="51" Text="Did story of Adam and Eve was influenced by Sumerian Ninti and Enki?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1046" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="312" RevisionGUID="c0015751-7c35-4bc5-8f5f-7084266621b3" CreationDate="2015-05-01T17:35:38.880" UserId="51" Text="|sumerian|mesopotamia|creation|comparative|bible|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1047" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="313" RevisionGUID="3274fdf2-cbe0-46b4-908a-47139703fc7e" CreationDate="2015-05-01T17:35:56.653" UserId="108" Text="The *`ka`* is like the spirit; its the element that makes something alive. In contrast, the *`ba`* is more like the personality of a person.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Ka was the life force, astral double or spiritual twin ... the Ba was the impersonal life force of the soul, the essence of one's individuality and unique characteristics.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Ruiz, Ana. The spirit of ancient Egypt. Algora Publishing, 2001.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There were in fact five parts to the [Egyptian view of the soul](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_concept_of_the_soul), not just two." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1048" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="314" RevisionGUID="f1532e94-53a7-41ef-a1df-227547f2218d" CreationDate="2015-05-01T17:38:47.140" UserDisplayName="user93" Text="Both flood myths are certainly similar that it is sound to reason that they may have similar origins or one draws from the other. The Noahide flood myth is detailed in Genesis chapters 6 through 9 of the Jewish/Christian Bible. The Ziusudra flood myth is from a single tablet often called Eridu Genesis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarities&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Both floods are brought about by divine intervention.&#xD;&#xA;* Both floods were for the express purpose to destroy mankind.&#xD;&#xA;* Both persons build an ark to survive the flood.&#xD;&#xA;* Both persons save pairs of animals as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Differences&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Ziusudra was a king; Genesis neither states nor implies that Noah is anything other than average.&#xD;&#xA;* Ziusudra is part of a mythology that involves a pantheon of gods; Noah exists within the monotheistic Jewish mythology.&#xD;&#xA;* Enlil, a god to Ziusudra, was annoyed by all the noise that human cities and activities made, so he persuaded the other gods to wipe out mankind. Noah's God was grieved that he had ever made mankind because every thought and action of their's was only wicked, so he decided to destroy them.&#xD;&#xA;* Enki, another god to Ziusudra, was fond of Ziusudra so he resolved to save him in some way. Noah's God seems to be conflicted, favoring Noah because he is actually not wicked, so God resolves to save Noah, his family, and the animals.&#xD;&#xA;* Ziusudra is rewarded by the gods with immortality. Within the myth itself, Noah is not rewarded with anything (some theologies certainly say he has eternal life, but that is not derived from the myth itself). In fact, Noah praises God and sacrifices and worships!&#xD;&#xA;* Ziusudra's gods don't seem bothered that so many were killed. Noah's God promises that he will never again destroy mankind, showing perhaps regret for the whole affair.&#xD;&#xA;* Ziusudra's flood myth doesn't seem to bother with rebuilding and re-population; there's no pragmatism, as is typical for myths. Noah's flood myth goes into this a great deal (i.e. there's genealogies, locations named, who settled where, etc.) and the stories in Genesis start to sound a little more plausible and less like epic legends.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Conclusions&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The dating of each myth suggests that the Sumerian Flood Epic may very well have influenced the development of the Jewish Flood Epic. Many scholars believe that the whole Genesis creation myth (the first 11 chapters of Genesis) was influenced by the Babylonian version of the epic of Gilgamesh, which does mention a flood and Ziusudra. Further, the Jewish people were held captive by the Babylonians in the 8th century BCE. This surely influenced their culture and already existing myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jewish culture stands out among most other ancient cultures. Generally, they were xenophobic and extremely resistant to syncretism. They would fall away and worship other gods, but they were always defined by their &quot;one true God&quot;. You can see this in the Noahide adaptation of &quot;the flood that wiped out mankind&quot;. In Ziusudra's myth, the gods look at man like a plaything that entertains and aggravates them. The Jewish god loves his creation dearly and is grieved when they do wrong, not annoyed. Ziusudra's gods are one dimensional, having particular characteristics and persuasions, while the Jewish god is multifaceted and sometimes seems to contradict himself as a consequence of adapting these epics to revolve around a monotheism. In light of this, the differences between the two myths makes sense, while the core similarities remain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1049" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="314" RevisionGUID="776fea8e-58f0-4c78-834d-f93d0744181e" CreationDate="2015-05-01T17:44:36.367" UserDisplayName="user93" Comment="added 185 characters in body" Text="Both flood myths are certainly similar that it is sound to reason that they may have similar origins or one draws from the other. The Noahide flood myth is detailed in Genesis chapters 6 through 9 of the Jewish/Christian Bible. The Ziusudra flood myth is from a single tablet often called Eridu Genesis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarities&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Both floods are brought about by divine intervention.&#xD;&#xA;* Both floods were for the express purpose to destroy mankind.&#xD;&#xA;* Both persons build an ark to survive the flood.&#xD;&#xA;* Both persons save pairs of animals as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Differences&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Ziusudra was a king; Genesis neither states nor implies that Noah is anything other than average.&#xD;&#xA;* Ziusudra is part of a mythology that involves a pantheon of gods; Noah exists within the monotheistic Jewish mythology.&#xD;&#xA;* Enlil, a god to Ziusudra, was annoyed by all the noise that human cities and activities made, so he persuaded the other gods to wipe out mankind. Noah's God was grieved that he had ever made mankind because every thought and action of their's was only wicked, so he decided to destroy them.&#xD;&#xA;* Enki, another god to Ziusudra, was fond of Ziusudra so he resolved to save him in some way. Noah's God seems to be conflicted, favoring Noah because he is actually not wicked, so God resolves to save Noah, his family, and the animals.&#xD;&#xA;* Ziusudra is rewarded by the gods with immortality. Within the myth itself, Noah is not rewarded with anything (some theologies certainly say he has eternal life, but that is not derived from the myth itself). In fact, Noah praises God and sacrifices and worships!&#xD;&#xA;* Ziusudra's gods don't seem bothered that so many were killed. Noah's God promises that he will never again destroy mankind, showing perhaps regret for the whole affair.&#xD;&#xA;* Ziusudra's flood myth doesn't seem to bother with rebuilding and re-population; there's no pragmatism, as is typical for myths. Noah's flood myth goes into this a great deal (i.e. there's genealogies, locations named, who settled where, etc.) and the stories in Genesis start to sound a little more plausible and less like epic legends.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Conclusions&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The dating of each myth suggests that the Sumerian Flood Epic may very well have influenced the development of the Jewish Flood Epic. Many scholars believe that the whole Genesis creation myth (the first 11 chapters of Genesis) was influenced by the Babylonian version of the epic of Gilgamesh, which does mention a flood. Further, the Jewish people were held captive by the Babylonians in the 8th century BCE. This surely influenced their culture and already existing myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jewish culture stands out among most other ancient cultures. Generally, they were xenophobic and extremely resistant to syncretism. They would fall away and worship other gods, but they were always defined by their &quot;one true God&quot;. You can see this in the Noahide adaptation of &quot;the flood that wiped out mankind&quot;. In Ziusudra's myth, the gods look at man like a plaything that entertains and aggravates them. The Jewish god loves his creation dearly and is grieved when they do wrong, not annoyed. Ziusudra's gods are one dimensional, having particular characteristics and persuasions, while the Jewish god is multifaceted and sometimes seems to contradict himself as a consequence of adapting these epics to revolve around a monotheism. In light of this, the differences between the two myths makes sense, while the core similarities remain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sources**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* [The Eridu Genesis][1]&#xD;&#xA;* [Genesis 6-9][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.piney.com/EriduGen.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%206-9&amp;version=NIV" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1050" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="315" RevisionGUID="d1853dfa-a21d-4224-a37f-b668161dc919" CreationDate="2015-05-01T17:45:36.050" UserId="51" Text="According to Hebrew Bible and Islamic tradition Eve is known as Adam's wife.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Some other works][1] (such as [Alphabet of Ben Sira][2]) suggest that Eve could be a sexual temptation and Adam's first wife being [Lilith][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do we actually know who was the first wife of Adam? Or this vary on the sources?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_and_Eve#Adam_and_Eve_in_other_works&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabet_of_Sirach&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1051" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="315" RevisionGUID="d1853dfa-a21d-4224-a37f-b668161dc919" CreationDate="2015-05-01T17:45:36.050" UserId="51" Text="Who was first wife of Adam?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1052" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="315" RevisionGUID="d1853dfa-a21d-4224-a37f-b668161dc919" CreationDate="2015-05-01T17:45:36.050" UserId="51" Text="|mesopotamia|comparative|bible|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1053" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="312" RevisionGUID="3825f7d3-ca5b-46ee-8e9e-134b35db7020" CreationDate="2015-05-01T17:47:00.407" UserId="108" Comment="added 5 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Was the story of [Adam and Eve][1] from Book of Genesis influenced by the Sumerian story of [Enki][3] and [Ninti][2]?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On Wikipedia page about [Ninti][4] we can read:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Some scholars suggest that this served as the basis for the story of Eve created from Adam's rib in the Book of Genesis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also based on this [article][5] seems it is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can you elaborate what are the main clues which proves that theory? Or what evidence goes against it (if you think it isn't)?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If it's more likely, then Adam would refer to Enki and Eve to Ninti?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_and_Eve&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninti&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enki&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninti&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.meta-religion.com/World_Religions/Ancient_religions/Mesopotamia/Epic_of_gilgamesh/biblical_parallels_in_sumerian_l.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1054" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="312" RevisionGUID="3825f7d3-ca5b-46ee-8e9e-134b35db7020" CreationDate="2015-05-01T17:47:00.407" UserId="108" Comment="added 5 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Was the story of Adam and Eve nfluenced by Sumerian Ninti and Enki?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1055" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="312" RevisionGUID="3825f7d3-ca5b-46ee-8e9e-134b35db7020" CreationDate="2015-05-01T17:47:00.407" UserId="108" Comment="added 5 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|sumerian|mesopotamia|creation|abrahamic-religions|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1056" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="305" RevisionGUID="82bd683e-a158-414a-8f9a-b02262c52f1f" CreationDate="2015-05-01T17:47:16.340" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="|sumerian|mesopotamia|flood-myth|abrahamic-religions|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1057" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="305" RevisionGUID="82bd683e-a158-414a-8f9a-b02262c52f1f" CreationDate="2015-05-01T17:47:16.340" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="Are Noah and Ziusudra the same person?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1058" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="315" RevisionGUID="7a102850-5d29-44e7-ae5a-e2b599a886e3" CreationDate="2015-05-01T17:48:31.290" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mesopotamia|comparative|abrahamic-religions|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1060" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="314" RevisionGUID="5a9e4038-aee6-4cc2-8c04-137cf8177686" CreationDate="2015-05-01T17:55:17.670" UserDisplayName="user93" Comment="sources" Text="Both flood myths are certainly similar that it is sound to reason that they may have similar origins or one draws from the other. The Noahide flood myth is detailed in Genesis chapters 6 through 9 of the Jewish/Christian Bible. The Ziusudra flood myth is from a single tablet often called Eridu Genesis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarities&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Both floods are brought about by divine intervention.&#xD;&#xA;* Both floods were for the express purpose to destroy mankind.&#xD;&#xA;* Both persons build an ark to survive the flood.&#xD;&#xA;* Both persons save pairs of animals as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Differences&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Ziusudra was a king; Genesis neither states nor implies that Noah is anything other than average.&#xD;&#xA;* Ziusudra is part of a mythology that involves a pantheon of gods; Noah exists within the monotheistic Jewish mythology.&#xD;&#xA;* Enlil, a god to Ziusudra, was annoyed by all the noise that human cities and activities made, so he persuaded the other gods to wipe out mankind. Noah's God was grieved that he had ever made mankind because every thought and action of their's was only wicked, so he decided to destroy them.&#xD;&#xA;* Enki, another god to Ziusudra, was fond of Ziusudra so he resolved to save him in some way. Noah's God seems to be conflicted, favoring Noah because he is actually not wicked, so God resolves to save Noah, his family, and the animals.&#xD;&#xA;* Ziusudra is rewarded by the gods with immortality. Within the myth itself, Noah is not rewarded with anything (some theologies certainly say he has eternal life, but that is not derived from the myth itself). In fact, Noah praises God and sacrifices and worships!&#xD;&#xA;* Ziusudra's gods don't seem bothered that so many were killed. Noah's God promises that he will never again destroy mankind, showing perhaps regret for the whole affair.&#xD;&#xA;* Ziusudra's flood myth doesn't seem to bother with rebuilding and re-population; there's no pragmatism, as is typical for myths. Noah's flood myth goes into this a great deal (i.e. there's genealogies, locations named, who settled where, etc.) and the stories in Genesis start to sound a little more plausible and less like epic legends.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Conclusions&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The dating of each myth suggests that the Sumerian Flood Epic (2300 BCE) may very well have influenced the development of the Jewish Flood Epic (1400 BCE to 700 BCE depending on who you ask). Many scholars believe that the whole Genesis creation myth (the first 11 chapters of Genesis) was influenced by the Babylonian version of the epic of Gilgamesh, which does mention a flood. Further, the Jewish people were held captive by the Babylonians in the 7th century BCE. This surely influenced their culture and already existing myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jewish culture stands out among most other ancient cultures. Generally, they were xenophobic and extremely resistant to syncretism. They would fall away and worship other gods, but they were always defined by their &quot;one true God&quot;. You can see this in the Noahide adaptation of &quot;the flood that wiped out mankind&quot;. In Ziusudra's myth, the gods look at man like a plaything that entertains and aggravates them. The Jewish god loves his creation dearly and is grieved when they do wrong, not annoyed. Ziusudra's gods are one dimensional, having particular characteristics and persuasions, while the Jewish god is multifaceted and sometimes seems to contradict himself as a consequence of adapting these epics to revolve around a monotheism. In light of this, the differences between the two myths makes sense, while the core similarities remain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sources**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* [The Eridu Genesis][1]&#xD;&#xA;* [Genesis 6-9][2]&#xD;&#xA;* [Ancient History Encyclopedia - Eridu][3]&#xD;&#xA;* [Wikipedia - Babylonian Captivity - Exilic literature and post-exilic revisions of the Torah/Pentateuch][4] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.piney.com/EriduGen.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%206-9&amp;version=NIV&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.ancient.eu/eridu/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_captivity#Exilic_literature_and_post-exilic_revisions_of_the_Torah.2FPentateuch" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1061" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="312" RevisionGUID="0842c02c-f7c8-4bf0-ad55-0c0bcc1f0a32" CreationDate="2015-05-01T17:56:06.857" UserId="108" Comment="edited title" Text="Was the story of Adam and Eve influenced by Sumerian Ninti and Enki?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1062" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="300" RevisionGUID="6d6a6c7a-194c-45dd-8070-bf4cc0e80517" CreationDate="2015-05-01T18:16:03.983" UserId="57" Comment="added 3 characters in body; edited title" Text="In Greek mythology the seasons change because Hades takes a beautiful girl down to the Underworld, her mother weeps and while in deep sorrow it becomes winter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What did the Romans believe for the change of seasons?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1063" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="300" RevisionGUID="6d6a6c7a-194c-45dd-8070-bf4cc0e80517" CreationDate="2015-05-01T18:16:03.983" UserId="57" Comment="added 3 characters in body; edited title" Text="How did the seasons change, according to the Romans?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1064" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="292" RevisionGUID="26b1b7b5-47c1-4060-897d-dac07a810936" CreationDate="2015-05-01T18:38:04.450" UserId="53" Comment="added 55 characters in body" Text="For questions regarding Australian Aboriginal mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1065" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="292" RevisionGUID="26b1b7b5-47c1-4060-897d-dac07a810936" CreationDate="2015-05-01T18:38:04.450" Comment="Proposed by 53 approved by 79, 55 edit id of 61" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1066" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="294" RevisionGUID="09a78dbd-6d19-4cca-ae19-6f2ee0e787f6" CreationDate="2015-05-01T18:38:16.030" UserId="53" Comment="added 105 characters in body" Text="For questions regarding the Norse Ragnarok.  The doom of the Gods and the end of the world as we know it." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1067" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="294" RevisionGUID="09a78dbd-6d19-4cca-ae19-6f2ee0e787f6" CreationDate="2015-05-01T18:38:16.030" Comment="Proposed by 53 approved by 79, 55 edit id of 62" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1068" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="270" RevisionGUID="f54e8f98-32b3-4357-8450-41848e5afadc" CreationDate="2015-05-01T18:39:28.383" UserId="42" Comment="Adding some more information, and citations." Text="The biggest one, to my mind, is that neither of them are really mythological, per se.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Atlantis was a fictional island made up by Plato.  It serves as the fictional antagonist to Plato's ideal state in &quot;Timaeus&quot; and (especially) &quot;Critias&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Scott Arthur Leonard provides a statement on it's classification in his article [&quot;A Closer Look: Is Plato’s Story of Atlantis a Myth?&quot;](http://saleonard.people.ysu.edu/PlatosAtlantis.html)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is, perhaps, most accurate to conclude that Plato’s Atlantis story is not myth so much as it is mythic.  That is, it imitates myth in most important respects.  It projects metaphysical assumptions, it comments on cultural origins, and dramatizes a set of virtues, values, and beliefs just the way a better-developed, more culturally representative myth might do.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And a more thorough treatment of it's fictional nature can be found in Diskin Clay's [&quot;Plato's Atlantis: The Anatomy of a Fiction&quot;](http://books.google.com/books?id=AMRl67uqD9wC&amp;pg=PA1#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There remains debate on whether there was some other story (mythological or historical) that inspired Plato's island.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The continent of Mu sprang from a discredited translation used on a text that has now been shown to be a treatise on astrology.  From there, it was developed into a full-blown hoax by James Churchward.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Codex in question was known as the Troano Codex, but has since been combined with the Cortesianus Codex, and is known as the Madrid Codex.  It's actual contents are summarized in [&quot;Research Methodologies and New Approaches to Interpreting the Madrid Codex&quot;](http://www.upcolorado.com/excerpts/9780870818615.pdf) by Gabrielle Vail and Anthony Aveni:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  ...it is the longest of the surviving Maya manuscripts, containing approximately 250 almanacs concerned with a variety of topics, including rain ceremonies associated with the deity Chaak, agricultural activities, ceremonies to commemorate the end of one year and the start of the next, deer hunting and trapping, the sacrifice of captives and other events associated with the five nameless days (Wayeb’) at the end of the year, carving deity images, and beekeeping. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1069" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="270" RevisionGUID="a2722e5a-fa24-4533-9b0a-7c913a978c08" CreationDate="2015-05-01T18:47:50.667" UserId="42" Comment="added 118 characters in body" Text="The biggest one, to my mind, is that neither of them are really mythological, per se.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Atlantis was a fictional island made up by Plato.  It serves as the fictional antagonist to Plato's ideal state in &quot;Timaeus&quot; and (especially) &quot;Critias&quot;.  They are written in the dialectic style, in which the character Critias narrates the story of Atlantis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Scott Arthur Leonard provides a statement on it's classification in his article [&quot;A Closer Look: Is Plato’s Story of Atlantis a Myth?&quot;](http://saleonard.people.ysu.edu/PlatosAtlantis.html)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is, perhaps, most accurate to conclude that Plato’s Atlantis story is not myth so much as it is mythic.  That is, it imitates myth in most important respects.  It projects metaphysical assumptions, it comments on cultural origins, and dramatizes a set of virtues, values, and beliefs just the way a better-developed, more culturally representative myth might do.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And a more thorough treatment of it's fictional nature can be found in Diskin Clay's [&quot;Plato's Atlantis: The Anatomy of a Fiction&quot;](http://books.google.com/books?id=AMRl67uqD9wC&amp;pg=PA1#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There remains debate on whether there was some other story (mythological or historical) that inspired Plato's island.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The continent of Mu sprang from a discredited translation used on a text that has now been shown to be a treatise on astrology.  From there, it was developed into a full-blown hoax by James Churchward.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Codex in question was known as the Troano Codex, but has since been combined with the Cortesianus Codex, and is known (collectively) as the Madrid Codex.  It's actual contents are summarized in [&quot;Research Methodologies and New Approaches to Interpreting the Madrid Codex&quot;](http://www.upcolorado.com/excerpts/9780870818615.pdf) by Gabrielle Vail and Anthony Aveni:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  ...it is the longest of the surviving Maya manuscripts, containing approximately 250 almanacs concerned with a variety of topics, including rain ceremonies associated with the deity Chaak, agricultural activities, ceremonies to commemorate the end of one year and the start of the next, deer hunting and trapping, the sacrifice of captives and other events associated with the five nameless days (Wayeb’) at the end of the year, carving deity images, and beekeeping. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1070" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="264" RevisionGUID="1712115f-9cf6-4ffd-a8a6-056f80b85e79" CreationDate="2015-05-01T18:54:59.757" UserId="-1" Comment="102" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:93,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;fredsbend&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:79,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ero Sɘnnin&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:37,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Jenny D&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:26,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Luna&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:18,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;El'endia Starman&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="1071" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="270" RevisionGUID="99aa66fa-3261-46b3-bf7d-9d11215695a7" CreationDate="2015-05-01T18:58:36.030" UserId="42" Comment="deleted 52 characters in body" Text="The biggest one, to my mind, is that neither of them are really mythological, per se.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Atlantis was a fictional island made up by Plato.  It serves as the fictional antagonist to Plato's ideal state in &quot;Timaeus&quot; and (especially) &quot;Critias&quot;.  They are written in the dialectic style, in which the character Critias narrates the story of Atlantis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Scott Arthur Leonard provides a statement on it's classification in his article [&quot;A Closer Look: Is Plato’s Story of Atlantis a Myth?&quot;](http://saleonard.people.ysu.edu/PlatosAtlantis.html)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is, perhaps, most accurate to conclude that Plato’s Atlantis story is not myth so much as it is mythic.  That is, it imitates myth in most important respects.  It projects metaphysical assumptions, it comments on cultural origins, and dramatizes a set of virtues, values, and beliefs just the way a better-developed, more culturally representative myth might do.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And a more thorough treatment of it's fictional nature can be found in Diskin Clay's [&quot;Plato's Atlantis: The Anatomy of a Fiction&quot;](http://books.google.com/books?id=AMRl67uqD9wC&amp;pg=PA1#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There remains debate on whether there was some other story (mythological or historical) that inspired Plato's island.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The continent of Mu sprang from a discredited translation of a Mayan Codex.  From there, it was developed into a full-blown hoax by James Churchward.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Codex in question was known as the Troano Codex, but has since been combined with the Cortesianus Codex, and is known (collectively) as the Madrid Codex.  It's actual contents, having since been better translated, are summarized in [&quot;Research Methodologies and New Approaches to Interpreting the Madrid Codex&quot;](http://www.upcolorado.com/excerpts/9780870818615.pdf) by Gabrielle Vail and Anthony Aveni:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  ...it is the longest of the surviving Maya manuscripts, containing approximately 250 almanacs concerned with a variety of topics, including rain ceremonies associated with the deity Chaak, agricultural activities, ceremonies to commemorate the end of one year and the start of the next, deer hunting and trapping, the sacrifice of captives and other events associated with the five nameless days (Wayeb’) at the end of the year, carving deity images, and beekeeping. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1073" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="315" RevisionGUID="b1303bac-d714-41f4-9053-69046dde5975" CreationDate="2015-05-01T19:40:33.857" UserId="-1" Comment="105" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:108,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Semaphore&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:93,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;fredsbend&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:98,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;PythonMaster&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:62,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Christofian&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:65,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Young Guilo&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="1074" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="316" RevisionGUID="6a85b44f-927d-4ef5-ac6c-d8d989b9b75b" CreationDate="2015-05-01T20:25:02.270" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1075" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="317" RevisionGUID="c2943a95-22a3-42a4-bc44-39e8b45155a5" CreationDate="2015-05-01T20:25:02.270" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1076" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="318" RevisionGUID="758b3e05-5c51-4e19-94cf-64dd28768712" CreationDate="2015-05-01T20:26:57.600" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1077" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="319" RevisionGUID="a0eefc14-5d8f-4b4f-9bc2-5dffb1791935" CreationDate="2015-05-01T20:26:57.600" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1078" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="320" RevisionGUID="132c5387-2a48-4c20-ad1a-4f1e37c153cd" CreationDate="2015-05-01T20:28:47.113" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1079" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="321" RevisionGUID="84f0243f-f5e1-433e-ae1d-655e83943e21" CreationDate="2015-05-01T20:28:47.113" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1081" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="317" RevisionGUID="f221afdb-a1f0-4a14-8264-de31efd9b0f6" CreationDate="2015-05-01T22:50:50.537" UserId="108" Comment="added 72 characters in body" Text="For questions on or relating to a mythological progenitor of human kind." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1082" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="317" RevisionGUID="f221afdb-a1f0-4a14-8264-de31efd9b0f6" CreationDate="2015-05-01T22:50:50.537" Comment="Proposed by 108 approved by 57, 79 edit id of 63" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1083" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="319" RevisionGUID="24abbbfd-49ef-41ef-a957-f69019fcb046" CreationDate="2015-05-01T22:51:05.717" UserId="108" Comment="added 112 characters in body" Text="For questions on shared themes or subjects common to the Abrahamic faiths, i.e. Judaism, Christianity and Islam." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1084" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="319" RevisionGUID="24abbbfd-49ef-41ef-a957-f69019fcb046" CreationDate="2015-05-01T22:51:05.717" Comment="Proposed by 108 approved by 57, 79 edit id of 64" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1085" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="321" RevisionGUID="601c9bda-2832-4ef0-abf4-d3c097133ea5" CreationDate="2015-05-01T22:51:18.183" UserId="108" Comment="added 83 characters in body" Text="For questions regarding the end of the world, as the theme features in mythologies." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1086" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="321" RevisionGUID="601c9bda-2832-4ef0-abf4-d3c097133ea5" CreationDate="2015-05-01T22:51:18.183" Comment="Proposed by 108 approved by 57, 79 edit id of 65" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1087" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="256" RevisionGUID="8fa1f9e4-5d43-4eb9-a09d-ab5903918630" CreationDate="2015-05-01T23:37:37.680" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1088" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="218" RevisionGUID="ae6b28b9-5386-4d4f-9163-2aec24e0241b" CreationDate="2015-05-01T23:38:14.093" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1089" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="132" RevisionGUID="b7b83f1c-26db-42be-9082-32617c1e0108" CreationDate="2015-05-01T23:38:24.573" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1090" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="283" RevisionGUID="40bb8235-0b7d-4264-abb6-609ea029386b" CreationDate="2015-05-01T23:39:44.213" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|egyptian|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1091" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="309" RevisionGUID="7e68bbf0-84d1-4b17-b59f-4ac2d0391134" CreationDate="2015-05-01T23:40:08.253" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1092" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="308" RevisionGUID="39b8bdf7-7e40-4bd4-85a5-9f5da51ac807" CreationDate="2015-05-01T23:40:27.300" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|sumerian|anunnaki|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1095" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="322" RevisionGUID="e560aad8-edae-4275-8251-f92d05f7dd99" CreationDate="2015-05-02T01:49:49.023" UserId="108" Text="[Pyramids](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid) are iconic structures from [Ancient Egypt](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egypt). But why did the ancient Egyptians shape their pyramids in a, well, pyramidal shape? These are not exactly intuitively shaped tombs. Some research suggests that the pyramids might have been shaped in the likeness of the mythical hill that rose out of the primordial waters at the beginning of time, [Benben](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benben).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any information from Egyptian mythology that explains why the pyramids would be shaped like Benben?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1096" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="322" RevisionGUID="e560aad8-edae-4275-8251-f92d05f7dd99" CreationDate="2015-05-02T01:49:49.023" UserId="108" Text="Do Egyptian myths provide explanations for the shape of the pyramid?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1097" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="322" RevisionGUID="e560aad8-edae-4275-8251-f92d05f7dd99" CreationDate="2015-05-02T01:49:49.023" UserId="108" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1098" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="323" RevisionGUID="6591c0a4-0048-414e-bda4-d0d89caa4a96" CreationDate="2015-05-02T02:47:47.067" UserId="171" Text="After Osiris is tricked and killed by Seth, he is dismembered, and is up to his wife Isis to recover all the pieces and bring him back to life. There is something that always caught my attention about the way she does this, since there is a pice [she can't recover][1] (Osiris' penis).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One piece only she did not recover, for it had been eaten by certain impious fishes; and their kind were accursed ever afterwards, and no Egyptian would touch or eat them. [...] She gathered the pieces together, rejoined them by magic, and by magic made a likeness of the missing member so that Osiris was complete.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have always wondered the significance of having a missing piece, and that this piece is the one used to conceive. I have read several slightly different versions of the Smith in which she is able to reconstruct it with magic or able to have a posthumous union with her husband an conceive in spite of the missing piece.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Could somebody clarify what is the importance of not being able to recover all pieces of Osiris and the significance of the missing piece being Osiris' manhood?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1] : http://www.egyptianmyths.net/mythisis.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1099" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="323" RevisionGUID="6591c0a4-0048-414e-bda4-d0d89caa4a96" CreationDate="2015-05-02T02:47:47.067" UserId="171" Text="What is the significance of this part on the myth of the resurrection of Osiris?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1100" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="323" RevisionGUID="6591c0a4-0048-414e-bda4-d0d89caa4a96" CreationDate="2015-05-02T02:47:47.067" UserId="171" Text="|egyptian|osiris|resurrection|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1102" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="324" RevisionGUID="b7d7ba3b-5ab2-44e4-9282-d7e05c652625" CreationDate="2015-05-02T03:28:02.643" UserId="171" Text="The information about the _Plant of Everlasting Youth_ form the Sumerian mythos can be found on the second half of [**The Epic of Gilgamesh**][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [_Tablet eleven_][2] Utnapishtim's wife asks her husband to offer a parting gift to Gilgamesh, so he learns that &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; at the bottom of the sea there lives a boxthorn-like plant that will make **him young again** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Note: there is already a related question with [an answer][3] that states that this plant _was most probably a species of Rhamnus_).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The _Tablen eleven_ states that &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; if you can possess this plant, you'll be again as you were in your youth [...] with it a man can regain his vigour&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and that Gilgamesh was planing to test this plant on a man of old age to see it the plan would rejuvenate him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The epic explains how Gilgamesh loses the plant, so he can never make use of it. It is not described if it rejuvenating effects ara permanent or just a work-only-once-per-take property.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh &#xD;&#xA;[2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh#Tablet_eleven&#xD;&#xA;[3]:http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/281/171" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1103" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="323" RevisionGUID="c10a94f0-eb9c-457c-bce9-2e173f25760f" CreationDate="2015-05-02T03:28:36.460" UserId="171" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="After Osiris is tricked and killed by Seth, he is dismembered, and is up to his wife Isis to recover all the pieces and bring him back to life. There is something that always caught my attention about the way she does this, since there is a pice [she can't recover][1] (Osiris' penis).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One piece only she did not recover, for it had been eaten by certain impious fishes; and their kind were accursed ever afterwards, and no Egyptian would touch or eat them. [...] She gathered the pieces together, rejoined them by magic, and by magic made a likeness of the missing member so that Osiris was complete.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have always wondered the significance of having a missing piece, and that this piece is the one used to conceive. I have read several slightly different versions of the Smith in which she is able to reconstruct it with magic or able to have a posthumous union with her husband an conceive in spite of the missing piece.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Could somebody clarify what is the importance of not being able to recover all pieces of Osiris and the significance of the missing piece being Osiris' manhood?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]: http://www.egyptianmyths.net/mythisis.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1104" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="325" RevisionGUID="7af90832-c78a-4342-913e-e6c24edb1533" CreationDate="2015-05-02T04:26:00.237" UserId="151" Text="&#xD;&#xA;Maybe you should give a link to the version of the myth you are stating , as it is not in the wikipedia article linked below. The only mention about penises is in&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Plutarch also states that Set steals and dismembers the corpse only after Isis has retrieved it. Isis then finds and buries each piece of her husband's body, with the exception of the penis, which she has to reconstruct with magic, because the original was eaten by fish in the river. According to Plutarch, this is the reason the Egyptians had a taboo against eating fish. In Egyptian accounts, however, the penis of Osiris is found intact, and the only close parallel with this part of Plutarch's story is in &quot;The Tale of Two Brothers&quot;, a folk tale from the New Kingdom with similarities to the Osiris myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![isisosirishorus][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[From right to left][2]: Isis, her husband Osiris, and their son Horus, the protagonists of the Osiris myth, in a Twenty-second Dynasty statuette&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thinking on your version:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Were he not emasculated  in his final form it would be expected that he would deal with Seth . He needed a son to vindicate his line and Isis managed it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is interesting that in this image Osiris is shown only from the waist up, indicative of the emasculation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The  penis that magically Isis regenerated reminds the  parthenogenesis myths in the region.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/12XQK.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris_myth" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1105" PostHistoryTypeId="11" PostId="264" RevisionGUID="3c11772a-b916-4c2c-9361-deb5058da5a1" CreationDate="2015-05-02T07:57:50.417" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:42,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;femtoRgon&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:124,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;santiago&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:138,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;King Shimkus&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:86,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;meneldal&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:111,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;plannapus&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="1106" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="216" RevisionGUID="d2e88ac5-4735-4624-9f22-bd6fa7192abf" CreationDate="2015-05-02T08:26:34.000" UserDisplayName="user93" Comment="really significant edit, huh?" Text="I'm having trouble understanding how the Roman mythology revolves around or is associated with the concept of [Genius][1]. From what I understand, every thing has a spirit or soul, that can be venerated in some way. This was the thought that eventually led to the Imperial Cult, where the Emperor himself was not actually worshiped, but it was his Genius.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If I were to hazard to guess, I would say that the Genii came first. People worshiped the sky, which eventually became Jupiter, the god of the sky. But by the time we get to 30 BC with the advent of the Imperial Cult, they are still talking about it. So they didn't abandon it as a primitive understanding of the gods, but embraced it as fundamental to divinity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So around 30 BC, at the advent of the Imperial Cult, how did the Romans at this time typically understand how the Genii fit into the mythology?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;___&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some side questions spawn out of this so here they are out of curiosity, not expectation that they should be answered:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Doesn't this just make Roman Mythology a kind of pantheism?&#xD;&#xA;2. Were there different theologies based on this concept that asserted that Jupiter et al. didn't actually exist like the myths portrayed?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genius_%28mythology%29" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1107" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="326" RevisionGUID="8d3755e6-be10-4cf4-9b94-42c20a4e791c" CreationDate="2015-05-02T08:34:01.817" UserId="111" Text="Euhemerus (4th Century BC) is famous for his attempt to interpret myths as deformed historical events. In particular he thought that Zeus was originally a Cretan king whose tomb could be found in Crete. This theory was followed by a few of his contemporaries and later by Christian scholars, including early chistians such as Cyprian in *De idolorum vanitate* (3rd Century AD) and to some extent even 17th century historians such as Antoine Banier in *La Mythologie et la fable expliqués par l'histoire* (1711).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Without going into the details of the actual tomb which seems a little bit far-fetched, does any modern scholar (mythologist?) give any credit to the idea that Zeus was a king, later deified by the rumor?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1108" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="326" RevisionGUID="8d3755e6-be10-4cf4-9b94-42c20a4e791c" CreationDate="2015-05-02T08:34:01.817" UserId="111" Text="Status of Euhemerus theory on Zeus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1109" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="326" RevisionGUID="8d3755e6-be10-4cf4-9b94-42c20a4e791c" CreationDate="2015-05-02T08:34:01.817" UserId="111" Text="|greek|zeus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1110" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="326" RevisionGUID="8bc87379-125b-4d75-b3ca-b9573ef65552" CreationDate="2015-05-02T08:43:41.817" UserId="111" Comment="added 54 characters in body" Text="Euhemerus (4th Century BC) is famous for his attempt to interpret myths as deformed historical events. In particular he thought that Zeus was originally a Cretan king whose tomb could be found in Crete. This theory was followed by a few of his contemporaries and later by Christian scholars, including early chistians such as Cyprian in *De idolorum vanitate* (3rd Century AD) and to some extent even 17th century historians such as Antoine Banier in *La Mythologie et la fable expliqués par l'histoire* (1711; litteraly *Mythology and fable explained by history*).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Without going into the details of the actual tomb which seems a little bit far-fetched, does any modern scholar (mythologist?) give any credit to the idea that Zeus was a king, later deified by the rumor?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1111" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="327" RevisionGUID="b900f135-6028-4077-a241-c249b1c46d91" CreationDate="2015-05-02T09:12:05.140" UserId="111" Text="To complete @Semaphore answer, historian Angelo Brelich in his 1960 article *[&quot;Quirinus: una divinita romana alla luce della comparazione storica&quot;](http://cisadu2.let.uniroma1.it/smsr/issues/1960/pages/#page/62/mode/2up)*  and later in 2001, Rebecca Allen in her article *['Romulus and Quirinus: an etruscan deity in Ancient Rome'](https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&amp;rct=j&amp;q=&amp;esrc=s&amp;source=web&amp;cd=4&amp;ved=0CD8QFjAD&amp;url=https%3A%2F%2Fjournals.lib.byu.edu%2Fspc%2Findex.php%2FStudiaAntiqua%2Farticle%2Fdownload%2F11485%2F11427&amp;ei=FJFEVYfWFYvgavWzgbAH&amp;usg=AFQjCNEI0Uky8N5LuMSEhTPLwEz01nSTXQ&amp;sig2=PPa2a3LRXqPIsFJZWNGG3Q)* both express the idea that the character of Romulus may actually derive from the Sabine god of war Quirinus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For those of you who do not speak italian, [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quirinus) offers an english summary of Brelich's theory:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Religious historian A. Brelich has argued that Quirinus and Romulus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were originally the same divine entity which was split into a founder&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hero and a god when Roman religion became demythicised. Among the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; features of Romulus that make of him the human equivalent of Quirinus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is his death at the hands of the patres which occurred on the date of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Quirinalia, February 17, also the last day of the Fornacalia or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Stultorum Feriae according to Ovid's Fasti II 481 ff. Brelich&#xD;&#xA;&gt; maintains the identity of a god and founder hero with a staple food of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a community, spelt in this case, is a well-known theme in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; anthropology, as shown in the myth of Hanuwele, which Jensen named as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dema myth. The possible presence of the flamen Quirinalis at the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; festival of Acca Larentia would corroborate this thesis, given the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fact that Romulus is a stepson of hers, and one the original twelfth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; arval brethren (Fratres Arvales)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1112" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="327" RevisionGUID="aaba9707-1154-4983-a382-f6a2c563a74b" CreationDate="2015-05-02T09:20:57.343" UserId="111" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="To complete @Semaphore answer, historian Angelo Brelich in his 1960 article *[&quot;Quirinus: una divinita romana alla luce della comparazione storica&quot;](http://cisadu2.let.uniroma1.it/smsr/issues/1960/pages/#page/62/mode/2up)*  and later in 2001, Rebecca Allen in her article *['Romulus and Quirinus: an etruscan deity in Ancient Rome'](https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&amp;rct=j&amp;q=&amp;esrc=s&amp;source=web&amp;cd=4&amp;ved=0CD8QFjAD&amp;url=https%3A%2F%2Fjournals.lib.byu.edu%2Fspc%2Findex.php%2FStudiaAntiqua%2Farticle%2Fdownload%2F11485%2F11427&amp;ei=FJFEVYfWFYvgavWzgbAH&amp;usg=AFQjCNEI0Uky8N5LuMSEhTPLwEz01nSTXQ&amp;sig2=PPa2a3LRXqPIsFJZWNGG3Q)* both expressed the idea that the character of Romulus may actually derive from the Sabine god of war Quirinus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For those of you who do not speak italian, [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quirinus) offers an english summary of Brelich's theory:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Religious historian A. Brelich has argued that Quirinus and Romulus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were originally the same divine entity which was split into a founder&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hero and a god when Roman religion became demythicised. Among the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; features of Romulus that make of him the human equivalent of Quirinus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is his death at the hands of the patres which occurred on the date of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Quirinalia, February 17, also the last day of the Fornacalia or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Stultorum Feriae according to Ovid's Fasti II 481 ff. Brelich&#xD;&#xA;&gt; maintains the identity of a god and founder hero with a staple food of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a community, spelt in this case, is a well-known theme in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; anthropology, as shown in the myth of Hanuwele, which Jensen named as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dema myth. The possible presence of the flamen Quirinalis at the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; festival of Acca Larentia would corroborate this thesis, given the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fact that Romulus is a stepson of hers, and one the original twelfth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; arval brethren (Fratres Arvales)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1114" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="181" RevisionGUID="a743dd26-d66d-4e10-a950-314fca5fcebc" CreationDate="2015-05-02T09:49:54.550" UserId="-1" Comment="101" Text="{&quot;OriginalQuestionIds&quot;:[31],&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:93,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;fredsbend&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:33,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;senshin&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:79,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ero Sɘnnin&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:124,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;santiago&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:86,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;meneldal&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="1115" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="326" RevisionGUID="2a76a420-f45d-4f53-8c76-27b3f836c96d" CreationDate="2015-05-02T10:28:55.620" UserId="111" Comment="added 3 characters in body" Text="Euhemerus (4th Century BC) is famous for his attempt to interpret myths as deformed historical events. In particular he thought that Zeus was originally a Cretan king whose tomb could be found in Crete. This theory was followed by a few of his contemporaries and later by Christian scholars, including early chistians such as Cyprian in *De idolorum vanitate* (3rd Century AD) and to some extent even 17th century historians such as Antoine Banier in *La Mythologie et les fables expliquées par l'histoire* (1711; litteraly *Mythology and fable explained by history*).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Without going into the details of the actual tomb which seems a little bit far-fetched, does any modern scholar (mythologist?) give any credit to the idea that Zeus was a king, later deified by the rumor?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1116" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="328" RevisionGUID="e850ea8b-82a0-4dbd-a131-13cfb2439318" CreationDate="2015-05-02T10:29:36.400" UserId="79" Text="The shape of the pyramids was indeed influenced by the benben. Here's something I found on [Egypt Tour](https://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/pyramidreligion.htm):&#xD;&#xA;&gt;One of their earliest creation myths envisioned the first place in the world as a mound of earth emerging from the waters of a universal ocean.[...]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;It seems that the earliest temples of Egypt, particularly in the north, sometimes incorporated a mound of earth as a symbol of the original site of all life. The earliest such mounds may have been a small hill of earth or sand, but the icon eventually took the form of a small pyramid carved from a single block of stone, known as a bnbn (benben). This name comes from the root, bn, which means to &quot;sell up&quot; or &quot;swell forth&quot;. The benben also, because of the sun's part in creation, came to be an icon of both the primeval mound as well as the sun which rose from it. In fact, the Egyptian word for the rising sun is wbn, which comes from the same root as benben.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The above extract tells how the &quot;rising mound of earth&quot; was imitated by the pyramids and how the Egyptians considered it sacred. That sacred feeling was achieved by the Egyptians through the construction of the pyramids.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Multiple sources do confirm that the Egyptian pyramids were based on their beliefs on benben:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;First of all, they reflect the shape of the primordial mound of creation &quot;benben&quot;. According to the Egyptian creation myth, which describes how the world was born, benben was an earthly mound that appeared out of the water and produced the first God.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sub&gt;source: [Function of the Egyptian Pyramids](http://www.experience-ancient-egypt.com/egyptian-pyramids.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The pyramid was not only a recreation of the benben, but along with it, the pyramids were considered to be the steps to heaven, where at the peak, they (Pharaohs) could greet the Sun god, Ra.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Moreover, the origin of the monument, hitherto overlooked, made it a symbol of the highest sacredness, rising above the mortal remains of the king, to greet the Sun, whose offspring the Pharaoh was.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sub&gt;source: [LECTURE III THE REALMS OF THE DEAD—THE PYRAMID TEXTS—THE ASCENT TO THE SKY](http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/rtae/rtae07.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is said that the myth is confirmed in the [Pyramid Texts](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_Texts).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1117" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="323" RevisionGUID="a3ac6bd5-315a-47fc-a591-87cc5e56c9c9" CreationDate="2015-05-02T10:36:10.850" UserId="57" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="After Osiris is tricked and killed by Seth, he is dismembered, and is up to his wife Isis to recover all the pieces and bring him back to life. There is something that always caught my attention about the way she does this, since there is a piece [she can't recover][1] (Osiris' penis).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One piece only she did not recover, for it had been eaten by certain impious fishes; and their kind were accursed ever afterwards, and no Egyptian would touch or eat them. [...] She gathered the pieces together, rejoined them by magic, and by magic made a likeness of the missing member so that Osiris was complete.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have always wondered the significance of having a missing piece, and that this piece is the one used to conceive. I have read several slightly different versions of the Smith in which she is able to reconstruct it with magic or able to have a posthumous union with her husband an conceive in spite of the missing piece.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Could somebody clarify what is the importance of not being able to recover all pieces of Osiris and the significance of the missing piece being Osiris' manhood?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]: http://www.egyptianmyths.net/mythisis.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1118" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="322" RevisionGUID="064bd4ea-3f88-49f8-91dd-e4853ef88018" CreationDate="2015-05-02T11:03:28.700" UserId="108" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="[Pyramids](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid) are iconic structures from [Ancient Egypt](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egypt). But why did the ancient Egyptians shape their pyramids in a, well, pyramidal shape? These are not exactly intuitively shaped tombs. Some research suggests that the pyramids might have been shaped in the likeness of the mythical hill that rose out of the primordial waters at the beginning of time, [Benben](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benben).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any information **from Egyptian *mythology*** that explains why the pyramids would be shaped like Benben?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1119" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="306" RevisionGUID="f96d3036-d68f-473e-948f-036cc4711620" CreationDate="2015-05-02T11:07:34.670" UserId="108" Comment="edited body" Text="Depends on what you mean, **but probably not**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most scholars would not consider them to be real. Their tale is too far-fetched to be literally true, and in this sense they weren't real. On the other hand, legends could be based on real events, so there might have been real historical figures who inspired the stories. You might, with a great deal of stretching, call them &quot;Romulus and Remus&quot;, but they probably bore no resemblance to the legends even if they actually exist.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact, the names Romulus and Remus are thought to be [backformations](http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/back-formation#English). That is, Romulus' name was invented based on the the city's name of Rome.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The name of Romulus means simply 'Roman', cf. the two forms *Sicanus* and *Siculus*; Remus (who in the Latin tradition replaces the Rhomos of most Greek authors), if not a back-formation from local place-names such as Remurinus ager, Remona, is possibly formed from Roma by false analogy with such doublets as *Kipvapa*, *Corcyra*, where the o is short.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Hornblower, Simon, and Antony Spawforth, eds. The Oxford classical dictionary. Vol. 3. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2003.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover, the legend is not regarded to be as old as the city's founding. A historical event should be better remembered when closer in time. Instead, the story as we know it developed later during the 3rd and 4th centuries BC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;This legend, though probably as old as the late 4th cent. BC in one form or another, cannot be very old.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Hornblower, Simon, and Antony Spawforth, eds. The Oxford classical dictionary. Vol. 3. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2003.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore, while there's no way to know for certain, the legendary Romulus and Remus are most likely fictional, or at least heavily distorted from historical reality." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1120" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="308" RevisionGUID="fd14ed9f-b3ea-4941-b63c-beefa82c1456" CreationDate="2015-05-02T11:43:34.900" UserId="36" Comment="edited body; edited title" Text="Was there any distinctive clothing which depicted Sumerian gods (Anunnaki) and their [ranks][1]? Like wearing helmets with horns?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Few examples:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [cylinder seal VA/243][2]&#xD;&#xA;- Akkadian Cylinder Seal of Adda (c. 2250 B.C.) with, left to right, Ninurta, Ishtar, Shamash, and Ea. From Dury, Art of the Ancient Near and Middle East, Abrams, NY&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  ![Akkadian Cylinder Seal of Adda (c. 2250 B.C.) with, left to right, Ninurta, Ishtar, Shamash, and Ea. From Dury, Art of the Ancient Near and Middle East, Abrams, NY.][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Akkadian Cylinder Seal (c. 2200 B.C. showing Gilgamesh slaying the bull of heaven, with Enkidu? Also from Dury; both in British Museum)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  ![Akkadian Cylinder Seal (c. 2200 B.C. showing Gilgamesh slaying the bull of heaven, with Enkidu? Also from Dury; both in British Museum.][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Image sources: [tulane.edu][5]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/237/51&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/247/51&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/6aBXX.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/s4j3O.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.tulane.edu/~danny/arch.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1121" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="308" RevisionGUID="fd14ed9f-b3ea-4941-b63c-beefa82c1456" CreationDate="2015-05-02T11:43:34.900" UserId="36" Comment="edited body; edited title" Text="What kind of distinctive clothing depicted Sumerian gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1122" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="329" RevisionGUID="2188ff1b-657c-4b93-9634-5efdb61d6e3a" CreationDate="2015-05-02T12:02:05.800" UserId="108" Text="**No.** Modern scholarship usually considers [Zeus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus) to be the Greek continuation of a [Proto-Indo-European](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_religion) sky deity reconstructed as [***Dyēus ph&lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt;ter**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyeus). In fact, of all the Greek pantheon, Zeus is the most obviously descended from a prehistorical deity common to the [Proto-Indo-European peoples](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans). Under the prevailing consensus, therefore, Zeus is not a deified [Cretan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crete) king.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The same root for 'shine' furnished the name of the head of the PIE pantheon, a god called Father Sky, whose name is securely reconstructible from the exact equation of Vedic Sanskrit *dyàuṣ pítar* '(o) Father Sky', Greek *Zeu pater* '(o) Father Zeus', and the Latin *Iū-piter* 'Jupiter' (Literlaly 'father Jove', also originally a vocative or form of direct address like the previous two.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Fortson, B. *Indo-European Language and Culture: an Introduction.* Oxford: Blackwell Publishing, 2004.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More generally, Euphemerus' theory on the origin of myths has one essential flaw. There is typically no evidence to support historical explanations for mythical events or figures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Euhemerus' theory has one basic weakness. In most cases, modern scholars lack enough historical evidence to determine whether a mythical figure ever existed. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Jacobs, Dale W. The World Book Encyclopedia. World Book Inc, 1997.&lt;/sub&gt;**" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1123" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="330" RevisionGUID="6bcf1941-aab6-4708-a0f0-7e50fb57c368" CreationDate="2015-05-02T12:06:59.767" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1124" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="331" RevisionGUID="17fed049-370a-4e9f-9a42-3382f23d0a18" CreationDate="2015-05-02T12:06:59.767" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1125" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="332" RevisionGUID="15ba9ebe-316c-4d58-9a4e-858e43867f3c" CreationDate="2015-05-02T12:07:59.453" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1126" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="333" RevisionGUID="9f9149b2-8623-437c-8538-4d46184b14d8" CreationDate="2015-05-02T12:07:59.453" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1127" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="334" RevisionGUID="89ee8c65-fd25-47e4-8fc5-6ee0ac9ece1e" CreationDate="2015-05-02T12:11:10.120" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1128" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="335" RevisionGUID="e70366f3-e827-49d0-8211-9e6ccdf9d175" CreationDate="2015-05-02T12:11:10.120" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1129" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="336" RevisionGUID="2deeb269-5030-4a8f-bc6e-5dd32b04b6b3" CreationDate="2015-05-02T12:12:22.890" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1130" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="337" RevisionGUID="86d74405-9d82-408c-8e03-b185b6b8382d" CreationDate="2015-05-02T12:12:22.890" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1131" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="329" RevisionGUID="33046e9f-03ff-44de-b667-67e923ad68f2" CreationDate="2015-05-02T12:12:59.287" UserId="111" Comment="corrected spelling of Euhemerus and added link to Fortson's book." Text="**No.** Modern scholarship usually considers [Zeus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus) to be the Greek continuation of a [Proto-Indo-European](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_religion) sky deity reconstructed as [***Dyēus ph&lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt;ter**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyeus). In fact, of all the Greek pantheon, Zeus is the most obviously descended from a prehistorical deity common to the [Proto-Indo-European peoples](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans). Under the prevailing consensus, therefore, Zeus is not a deified [Cretan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crete) king.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The same root for 'shine' furnished the name of the head of the PIE pantheon, a god called Father Sky, whose name is securely reconstructible from the exact equation of Vedic Sanskrit *dyàuṣ pítar* '(o) Father Sky', Greek *Zeu pater* '(o) Father Zeus', and the Latin *Iū-piter* 'Jupiter' (Literlaly 'father Jove', also originally a vocative or form of direct address like the previous two.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Fortson, B. *[Indo-European Language and Culture: an Introduction.](http://eu.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-1405188960.html)* Oxford: Blackwell Publishing, 2004.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More generally, Euhemerus' theory on the origin of myths has one essential flaw. There is typically no evidence to support historical explanations for mythical events or figures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Euhemerus' theory has one basic weakness. In most cases, modern scholars lack enough historical evidence to determine whether a mythical figure ever existed. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Jacobs, Dale W. The World Book Encyclopedia. World Book Inc, 1997.&lt;/sub&gt;**" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1132" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="329" RevisionGUID="33046e9f-03ff-44de-b667-67e923ad68f2" CreationDate="2015-05-02T12:12:59.287" Comment="Proposed by 111 approved by 108 edit id of 69" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1133" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="338" RevisionGUID="997d8eee-f7a0-4233-9b76-fecd76bd86fa" CreationDate="2015-05-02T12:13:47.230" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1134" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="339" RevisionGUID="3cb61abb-243e-473e-a3b4-e9cbf688cd8a" CreationDate="2015-05-02T12:13:47.230" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1135" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="329" RevisionGUID="e92c59bc-6f1d-4b6d-93ca-1bc534eab94f" CreationDate="2015-05-02T12:16:41.187" UserId="108" Comment="added 42 characters in body" Text="**No.** Modern scholarship usually considers [Zeus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus) to be the Greek continuation of a [Proto-Indo-European](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_religion) sky deity reconstructed as [***Dyēus ph&lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt;ter**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyeus). In fact, of all the Greek pantheon, Zeus is the most obviously descended from a prehistorical deity common to the [Proto-Indo-European peoples](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans). Under the prevailing consensus, therefore, Zeus is not a deified [Cretan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crete) king.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The same root for 'shine' furnished the name of the head of the PIE pantheon, a god called Father Sky, whose name is securely reconstructible from the exact equation of Vedic Sanskrit *dyàuṣ pítar* '(o) Father Sky', Greek *Zeu pater* '(o) Father Zeus', and the Latin *Iū-piter* 'Jupiter' (Literlaly 'father Jove', also originally a vocative or form of direct address like the previous two.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Fortson, B. *[Indo-European Language and Culture: an Introduction.](http://eu.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-1405188960.html)* Oxford: Blackwell Publishing, 2004.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More generally, [Euhemerus'](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euhemerus) theory on the origin of myths has one essential flaw. There is typically no evidence to support historical explanations for mythical events or figures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Euhemerus' theory has one basic weakness. In most cases, modern scholars lack enough historical evidence to determine whether a mythical figure ever existed. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Jacobs, Dale W. The World Book Encyclopedia. World Book Inc, 1997.&lt;/sub&gt;**" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1138" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="315" RevisionGUID="f7061964-4589-456b-8f78-b41460626d5e" CreationDate="2015-05-02T12:33:54.150" UserId="51" Comment="Changing question approach, so it can be re-open, as suggested in the comments." Text="According to Hebrew Bible and Islamic tradition Eve is known as Adam's wife.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However [some other works][1] suggested something opposite.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which myths suggest that Biblical Eve wasn't first wife of Adam?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_and_Eve#Adam_and_Eve_in_other_works&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabet_of_Sirach&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1139" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="315" RevisionGUID="f7061964-4589-456b-8f78-b41460626d5e" CreationDate="2015-05-02T12:33:54.150" UserId="51" Comment="Changing question approach, so it can be re-open, as suggested in the comments." Text="Which myth says that Eve wasn't first wife of Adam, but Lilith?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1141" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="340" RevisionGUID="b450d8f6-f116-43c0-8c1e-0dda4d013c63" CreationDate="2015-05-02T14:35:24.923" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1142" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="341" RevisionGUID="104097ba-cbb8-4370-aaad-e7f5109db651" CreationDate="2015-05-02T14:35:24.923" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1143" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="342" RevisionGUID="177948a1-a38f-4fcf-b22e-30c2434bbf05" CreationDate="2015-05-02T14:46:13.460" UserId="98" Text="Odin is known to be one-eyed because of a trade between Mimir and Odin. When Odin asked Mimir for some water in the well, Mimir declined him of giving any water unless Odin gave him an eye. Surprisingly, Odin took one of his eyes out and gave it to Mimir for water. The trade was made and Odin was very happy for the water.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But what did Mimir do with Odin's eye? The [source][1] tells nothing about the use for Odin's eye or what happens to it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;   [1]:http://norse-mythology.org/tales/why-odin-is-one-eyed/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1144" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="342" RevisionGUID="177948a1-a38f-4fcf-b22e-30c2434bbf05" CreationDate="2015-05-02T14:46:13.460" UserId="98" Text="What did Mimir Do With Odin's Eye" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1145" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="342" RevisionGUID="177948a1-a38f-4fcf-b22e-30c2434bbf05" CreationDate="2015-05-02T14:46:13.460" UserId="98" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1146" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="342" RevisionGUID="9a30b775-3570-452c-a890-4739cad7f530" CreationDate="2015-05-02T15:02:13.417" UserId="98" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse-mythology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1147" PostHistoryTypeId="9" PostId="342" RevisionGUID="5f7d1fac-fc1f-461f-be75-d6531192f028" CreationDate="2015-05-02T15:02:24.020" UserId="98" Comment="Rollback to [177948a1-a38f-4fcf-b22e-30c2434bbf05]" Text="|norse|" />
  <row Id="1149" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="343" RevisionGUID="7e99524e-1aed-4809-889a-0cf026aca736" CreationDate="2015-05-02T15:06:05.580" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1150" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="344" RevisionGUID="f8e5215e-776a-4a36-9a5c-b7fab82e8e5b" CreationDate="2015-05-02T15:06:05.580" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1151" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="345" RevisionGUID="cee2e890-c49d-4242-a543-43c80a56879e" CreationDate="2015-05-02T15:14:27.107" UserId="57" Text="It is not important.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The point of the tale is to convey the message that no sacrifice is too great for wisdom. What happens to Odin's eye after it has been thrown into Mimir's Well is not significant. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1152" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="345" RevisionGUID="c9473d8a-4f24-4f9d-943a-f1c7636f6a98" CreationDate="2015-05-02T15:20:41.667" UserId="57" Comment="added 369 characters in body" Text="Odin's eye remains at the bottom of Mimir's Well: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I know where Othin's eye is hidden,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Deep in the wide-famed well of Mimir;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mead from the pledge of Othin each mom  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Does Mimir drink: would you know yet more?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Völuspá, the Poetic Edda, translated by by Henry Adams Bellows][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The point of the tale is to convey the message that no sacrifice is too great for wisdom. What happens to Odin's eye after it has been thrown into Mimir's Well is not particularly significant. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe03.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1153" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="342" RevisionGUID="fca8e7b6-da5f-482f-a588-7e5db73ae381" CreationDate="2015-05-02T15:21:07.220" UserId="57" Comment="edited title" Text="What did Mimir do with Odin's eye?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1155" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="346" RevisionGUID="17158200-0433-4b64-bf62-0800021421a8" CreationDate="2015-05-02T16:23:18.850" UserId="57" Text="In Balkan folklore, the concept of the vampire appears to derive from the concept of the werewolf.  Several words that originally meant werewolf (e.g. the Bulgarian vǎrkolak and the Serbian vulkodlak) either ended up being used for both creatures or for vampires alone (e.g the Greek word vrykolakas, a derivative of vǎrkolak).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How did the transition from werewolves to vampires happen? Was it straightforward or was there an intermediate creature that combines characteristics from both species? &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1156" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="346" RevisionGUID="17158200-0433-4b64-bf62-0800021421a8" CreationDate="2015-05-02T16:23:18.850" UserId="57" Text="How did the transition from werewolves to vampires happen?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1157" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="346" RevisionGUID="17158200-0433-4b64-bf62-0800021421a8" CreationDate="2015-05-02T16:23:18.850" UserId="57" Text="|vampires|werewolves|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1158" PostHistoryTypeId="11" PostId="315" RevisionGUID="49d290dc-9c38-4143-92ed-fa233fb0bc3f" CreationDate="2015-05-02T16:26:41.220" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:111,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;plannapus&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:86,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;meneldal&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:51,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;kenorb&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:79,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ero Sɘnnin&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:42,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;femtoRgon&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="1159" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="299" RevisionGUID="ba09af66-478b-48b9-a10f-a4610c5f3647" CreationDate="2015-05-02T16:57:11.187" UserId="57" Comment="edited body" Text="###It was an especially cruel and specific punishment for [Medusa][1] as she was known for her beautiful golden hair &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Medusa's transformation from a beautiful golden haired priestess of Athena to not-so-beautiful Gorgon [snake-lady][2] was not instant, is was a gradual and drawn out punishment:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;She was originally a golden-haired, fair maiden, who, as a priestess of Athena, was devoted to a life of celibacy; however, after being wooed by Poseidon and falling for him, she forgot her vows and married him. For this offence, **she was punished by the goddess in a most terrible manner. Each wavy lock of the beautiful hair that had charmed her husband was changed into a venomous snake**;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.greekmythology.com/Myths/Creatures/Medusa/medusa.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs37/f/2008/285/0/c/Medusa_by_GENZOMAN.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1160" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="347" RevisionGUID="8b61104f-8bca-44be-9823-cb24a15da5a1" CreationDate="2015-05-02T17:02:08.123" UserId="108" Text="Yes, the very common [**divine twins myths**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_twins) are believed to trace back to a shared [Proto-Indo-European](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_religion) narrative. The central motif involves two twins born of the sky deity (or sun), with some customary attributes such as being horsemen or riding horse-drawn chariots.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Another manifestation of the binary conception of society and the world is the cult of twins widespread in Indo-European mythology. A myth of divine twins who are children of the sun god goes back to Proto-Indo-European antiquity. The myth is found in all the main ancient Indo-European traditions, which not only repeat the same motfisbut also share correspondences in the names of the heroes, thus establishing the Proto-Indo-European character of the motif and the personages.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Gamkrelidze, T. V., and Vjaceslav V. I. *Indo-European and the Indo-Europeans: A Reconstruction and Historical Analysis of a Proto-Language and Proto-Culture*. Vol. 80. Walter de Gruyter, 1995. &lt;/sub&gt;** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A variant of this myth is found in all major [Indo-European traditions](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages). Furthermore, elements of this myth is preserved in the [dual kingships](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diarchy) widespread in antiquity, including Sparta, Rome, and some Germanic tribes. The popularity of the motif in Indo-European cultures allows scholars to securely reconstruct this as a common Proto-Indo-European heritage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Example myths considered linked to a common PIE origin include:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Graeco Roman [Dioskouri](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castor_and_Pollux): *Castor and Pollux* (Greek) or *Gemini and Castores* (Roman).&#xD;&#xA;- Hindu [Nara-Narayana](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nara-Narayana)&#xD;&#xA;- Vedic [Ashwini Kumaras](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashvins)&#xD;&#xA;- Lithuanian [Ašvieniai](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%C5%A1vieniai)&#xD;&#xA;- Germanic [Alics](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcis_(gods))" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1161" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="258" RevisionGUID="62ef8e3e-b1cb-4742-8dc9-66e3918587c3" CreationDate="2015-05-02T17:02:27.287" UserId="57" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="It was looking _directly_ into Medusa's eyes that would turn a mortal to stone, not the whole of her face. Using the shield as a mirror meant that even if Medusa's gaze fell upon Perseus, it would be at an ankle. Not that it mattered in the end, as Perseus was lucky enough to catch Medusa and her sisters sleeping:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But the Gorgons had heads twined about with the scales of dragons, and great tusks like swine's, and brazen hands, and golden wings, by which they flew; and they turned to stone such as beheld them. So Perseus stood over them as they slept, and while Athena guided his hand and he looked with averted gaze on a brazen shield, in which he beheld the image of the Gorgon,5 he beheaded her. When her head was cut off, there sprang from the Gorgon the winged horse Pegasus and Chrysaor, the father of Geryon; these she had by Poseidon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Apollod. 2.4.2](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D2%3Achapter%3D4%3Asection%3D2#note6)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It should be noted, however, that Hesiod doesn't mention the shield at all: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And again, Ceto bore to Phorcys the fair-cheeked Graiae, sisters grey from their birth: and both deathless gods and men who walk on earth call them Graiae, Pemphredo well-clad, and saffron-robed Enyo, and the Gorgons who dwell beyond glorious Ocean in the frontier land towards Night where are the clear-voiced Hesperides, Sthenno, and Euryale, and Medusa who suffered a woeful fate: she was mortal, but the two were undying and grew not old. With her lay the Dark-haired One in a soft meadow amid spring flowers. And when Perseus cut off her head, there sprang forth great Chrysaor and the horse Pegasus who is so called because he was born near the springs of Ocean; and that other, because he held a golden blade in his hands. Now Pegasus flew away and left the earth, the mother of flocks, and came to the deathless gods: and he dwells in the house of Zeus and brings to wise Zeus the thunder and lightning&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hes. Th. 280](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hes.%20Th.%20280&amp;lang=original)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1162" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="347" RevisionGUID="9e03482f-8de6-4b23-a0c9-6548d301f5fb" CreationDate="2015-05-02T17:07:25.653" UserId="108" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="Yes, the very common [**divine twins myths**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_twins) are believed to trace back to a shared [Proto-Indo-European](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_religion) narrative. The central motif involves two twins born of the sky deity (or sun), with some customary attributes such as being horsemen or riding horse-drawn chariots.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Another manifestation of the binary conception of society and the world is the cult of twins widespread in Indo-European mythology. A myth of divine twins who are children of the sun god goes back to Proto-Indo-European antiquity. The myth is found in all the main ancient Indo-European traditions, which not only repeat the same motfisbut also share correspondences in the names of the heroes, thus establishing the Proto-Indo-European character of the motif and the personages.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Gamkrelidze, T. V., and Vjaceslav V. I. *Indo-European and the Indo-Europeans: A Reconstruction and Historical Analysis of a Proto-Language and Proto-Culture*. Vol. 80. Walter de Gruyter, 1995. &lt;/sub&gt;** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A variant of this myth is found in all major [Indo-European traditions](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages). Furthermore, elements of this myth is preserved in the [dual kingships](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diarchy) widespread in antiquity, including Sparta, Rome, and some Germanic tribes. The popularity of the motif in Indo-European cultures allows scholars to securely reconstruct this as a common Proto-Indo-European heritage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Examples of myths considered linked to a common PIE origin include:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Graeco Roman [Dioskouri](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castor_and_Pollux): *Castor and Pollux* (Greek) or *Gemini and Castores* (Roman).&#xD;&#xA;- Hindu [Nara-Narayana](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nara-Narayana)&#xD;&#xA;- Vedic [Ashwini Kumaras](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashvins)&#xD;&#xA;- Lithuanian [Ašvieniai](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%C5%A1vieniai)&#xD;&#xA;- Germanic [Alics](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcis_(gods))" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1163" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="347" RevisionGUID="3c03ed2b-5722-4203-b7ef-9b280126bce7" CreationDate="2015-05-02T17:21:33.340" UserId="108" Comment="added 36 characters in body" Text="Yes, the very common [**divine twins myths**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_twins) are believed to trace back to a shared [Proto-Indo-European](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_religion) narrative. The central motif involves two twins born of the sky deity (or sun), with some customary attributes such as being horsemen or riding horse-drawn chariots.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Another manifestation of the binary conception of society and the world is the cult of twins widespread in Indo-European mythology. A myth of divine twins who are children of the sun god goes back to Proto-Indo-European antiquity. The myth is found in all the main ancient Indo-European traditions, which not only repeat the same motfisbut also share correspondences in the names of the heroes, thus establishing the Proto-Indo-European character of the motif and the personages.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Gamkrelidze, T. V., and Vjaceslav V. I. *Indo-European and the Indo-Europeans: A Reconstruction and Historical Analysis of a Proto-Language and Proto-Culture*. Vol. 80. Walter de Gruyter, 1995. &lt;/sub&gt;** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A variant of this myth is found in all major [Indo-European traditions](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages) of old. It's popularity in very geographically diverse Indo-European cultures allows scholars to securely reconstruct it as a common Proto-Indo-European heritage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In addition, elements of this myth is preserved in the systems of [dual kingships](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diarchy) widespread in antiquity, including Sparta, Rome, and some Germanic tribes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Examples of myths considered linked to a common PIE origin include:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Graeco Roman [Dioskouri](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castor_and_Pollux): *Castor and Pollux* (Greek) or *Gemini and Castores* (Roman).&#xD;&#xA;- Hindu [Nara-Narayana](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nara-Narayana)&#xD;&#xA;- Vedic [Ashwini Kumaras](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashvins)&#xD;&#xA;- Lithuanian [Ašvieniai](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%C5%A1vieniai)&#xD;&#xA;- Germanic [Alics](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcis_(gods))" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1164" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="348" RevisionGUID="59fba264-ef02-4d4b-ae8b-a395cef07823" CreationDate="2015-05-02T17:22:29.013" UserId="57" Text="The story of Lilith being Adam's first wife can be found in the fifth question of the [Alphabet of ben Sirach][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;The angels who are in charge of medicine: Snvi, Snsvi, and Smnglof. After God created Adam, who was alone, He said, 'It is not good for man to be alone' (Gen. 2:18). He then created a woman for Adam, from the earth, as He had created Adam himself, and called her Lilith. Adam and Lilith began to fight. She said, 'I will not lie below,' and he said, 'I will not lie beneath you, but only on top. For you are fit only to be in the bottom position, while am to be in the superior one.' Lilith responded, 'We are equal to each other inasmuch as we were both created from the earth.' But they would not listen to one another. When Lilith saw this, she pronounced the Ineffable Name and flew away into the air. Adam stood in prayer before his Creator: 'Sovereign of the universe!' he said, 'the woman you gave me has run away.' At once, the Holy One, blessed be He, sent these three angels to bring her back.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://jewishchristianlit.com/Topics/Lilith/alphabet.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1165" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="315" RevisionGUID="a8129523-b602-4516-8a71-56f75ad3dce1" CreationDate="2015-05-02T17:48:18.093" UserId="79" Comment="added 9 characters in body; edited title" Text="According to the Hebrew Bible and Islamic tradition, Eve is known as Adam's wife.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However [some other works][1] suggested something opposite.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which myths suggest that Biblical Eve wasn't the first wife of Adam?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_and_Eve#Adam_and_Eve_in_other_works&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabet_of_Sirach&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1166" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="315" RevisionGUID="a8129523-b602-4516-8a71-56f75ad3dce1" CreationDate="2015-05-02T17:48:18.093" UserId="79" Comment="added 9 characters in body; edited title" Text="Which myth says that Eve wasn't the first wife of Adam, but Lilith?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1168" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="208" RevisionGUID="83e78d07-8dc9-43d5-a89e-859d9b40dc53" CreationDate="2015-05-02T18:01:58.403" UserId="-1" Comment="102" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:62,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Christofian&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:38,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Piper&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:44,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;awesomepi&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:98,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;PythonMaster&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:108,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Semaphore&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="1169" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="349" RevisionGUID="03dfa302-e275-48d0-8614-1a75f798a9b8" CreationDate="2015-05-02T18:14:22.813" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="There are three different &quot;lenses&quot; that we can use to answer this question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# What is &quot;ball&quot;?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's a description of a similar ball game played by the Aztecs&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These balls... were solid, of a certain resin or gum which is called ulli [rubber] which is very light in weight and bounces like an inflated ball.... The ballgame was called tlaxtli or tlachtli. The court consisted of two walls with some twenty or thirty feet of distance between them and each was up to forty or fifty feet in length. The floor and walls were heavily plastered, the latter having some one and a half estados [nearly ten feet] in height. In the middle of the court was a line made especially for the game; and in the middle of the walls, halfway down the playing stretch, were two stones like millstones perforated in the middle, facing each other, and they each had holes wide enough that the ball could fit into each of them. And whoever placed the ball there won the game. They did not play with their hands but hit the ball with their flanks. For playing they wore gloves on their hands and a leather apron on their flanks to hit the ball (Sahagún 1938, II.viii.10, pp. 297-298).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([the online version of Allen J. Christenson's translation][3])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# The Game's Role in the Plot&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Just to summarise, the general plot of the Popol Vuh is one of a creation myth. It tells the story of how the gods created the worlds, the animals, and of the god's several attempts to create humans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An important thing to note is that the reason behind the failure of the gods several attempts to create humans is that their attempts could not speak the names of the gods (e.g. know of them or worship them). Here's an example of this (this passage accounts why just creating animals was insufficient):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Speak therefore our names. Worship  us, for we are your Mother and your Father. Say this, therefore: ‘Huracan, Youngest Thunderbolt, and Sudden Thunderbolt, Heart of Sky and Heart of Earth, Framer and Shaper, She Who Has Borne Children and He Who Has Begotten Sons.’ Speak! Call upon us! Worship us!” they were told.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; But they did not succeed. They did not speak like people. They only squawked and chattered and roared. Their speech was unrecognizable, for each cried out in a&#xD;&#xA;different way.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;When they heard this, the Framer and the Shaper said, “Their speech did not&#xD;&#xA;&gt;turn out well.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;And again they said to each other:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; “They were not able to speak our names. We are their Framer and their Shaper.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This is not good,” said She Who Has Borne Children and He Who Has Begotten Sons to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; each other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([the online version of Allen J. Christenson's translation][3])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Xibalba (the underworld) doesn't appear until after three failed creation attempts (the second and third attempts failed for the same reason as the first creation attempt). They first appear to oppose the fathers of the twins, &quot;One Hunahpu and Seven Hunahpu,&quot; who, it is important to note, were &quot;born to Xpiyacoc and Xmucane&quot; (two of the seven gods who created the world) ([Christenson][3]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “What is happening on the surface of the earth? They are just stomping about and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shouting. May they be summoned here therefore. They shall come to play ball, and we&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shall defeat them. They have simply failed to honor us. They have neither honor nor&#xD;&#xA;&gt; respect. Certainly they act arrogantly here over our heads,” said therefore all&#xD;&#xA;&gt; those of Xibalba.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Christenson][3])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It should become clear that the lords of Xibalba are an opposing force to the creation god(desses). Not only are they the lords of death, but they, like the lords of creation, also want recognition from humans. As explained in the online book [*Esotericism of the Popol Vuh*][1]&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; (which uses a different translation of the Popol Vuh):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; We have here a contest between opposing forces, since those of Xibalbá cannot tolerate that &quot; 'anyone greater than they, or any having greater power, should exist,' they all said unanimously.&quot; From this passage it is seen that the organization of the false gods is similar to that of the true since, like the latter, the false gods compose a sevenfold entity whose components must get together and reach decisions by a unanimity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the plot perspective, the game &quot;ball&quot; is simply a competition to resolve the conflict, and the story wouldn't be much different if they played chess or another game.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Just to clarify the plot: One Hunahpu and Seven Hunahpu are defeated by Xibalba, but their sons learn to play ball, go to Xibalba, and defeat the Lords of Xibalba. Afterwords, humans are finally created.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# The Symbolic Interpretation of the Game&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, another way of looking at the game is as a symbol representing the sky. From [*Esotericism of the Popol Vuh*][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Besides symbolizing the sun's relative position in the order of its rising and its daily trajectory, Hunahpú and Ixbalamqué, playing alone for a long time on opposite sides of the court, represent the position of the sun and the moon at opposing solstices, just as this continues to be depicted on Chortí altars. All this unmistakably reflects a gradual progress in astronomic and cosmogonic knowledge. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Popol Vuh is the only American source to speak of the origin of the ball game and place it in time. Not only does it tell us of the game's ethnological antiquity, it also explains its symbolism. It in fact establishes a parallel between the ball players and the solar gods, which from the angles of the universe — to employ the phraseology of the Chumayel manuscript — meet in the center, in this case in the ball court, where they can convert themselves into two and even four persons with no loss of their theogonic individuality, at once a unity and a multiplicity. During the ball game they wear their resplendent ceremonial gear — that is, they exhibit their insignia as solar deities. Two by two they come from the eastern and western sectors of the cosmos and, meeting in the center, forge themselves into the individuality of Heart of Heaven. This fusion of a number of forms under &quot;one single head,&quot; as the Chortís say, is expressed in the principal rule of the game which is that the players can touch the ball only with their body but never with their heads, feet, or arms; each time this happens a point is given the other team. The continual contact of two or four bodies with a single ball makes clear the monotheistic principle whereby the deity integrates itself through the union of its hypostases. This idea is objectified in the group of ball players unable to use their heads or extremities since the ball — the symbol of the Star or Sun god — is alternatively the head of each. This figure of a single-headed god having many bodies is characteristic of Maya thought. We need only to remember Oxlahun-oc (&quot;it of the thirteen feet&quot;), who is mentioned in the Chilam Balam of Chumayel. The motion of the ball imitates the trajectory of the sun, a figure that the Chortí actors also reproduce in their dramatization of this part of the Popol Vuh. Besides this, the Quiché codex represents the descent of god-Seven from the Center of Heaven to the center of the earth by the solar bird which, coming down from on high, &quot;came to see them play.&quot; As said, in Chortí religious allegory the bird of prey, which is the mask, nahual, or messenger of the deity of Heaven, descends vertically to the center of the earth — like the sun's rays — when the daystar goes through the zenith, symbolizing the descent of divine grace. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This interpretation lends a new interpretation to the text: Xibalba, the &quot;Lords of the subterrene regions&quot; ([*Esotericism*][1]) are in conflict with the lords of the sky (the creators) over power. The punishment of the Lords of Xibalba (&quot;you... shall no longer be allowed to play ball.&quot;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;) reflects that Xibalba is restricted to a subteranian sphere, and that the power of death is limited. This may be one of the reasons why the gods can then create humans who &quot;can speak their name.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, we don't know enough to know without a doubt the real symbolism behind the ball game&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;. The conquistadors deliberately supressed indiginous culture when they conquored central america, and only four written mayan documents remain. It's impossible to understate the destruction that these cultures faced, and we are very fortunate that texts like the Popol Vuh still exist.&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; I am continuously amazed at the quality of sources on mythology available online. Why would anyone want to read wikipedia?  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; This line does not occur in the Christenson translation, but the Lords of Xibalba still faced severe restrictions on their power.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; There is disagreement about the meaning of the ball game.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; A good account of the translation can be found [on JStor (behind a paywall)][2]. Another account, which also discusses the cultural destruction of the maya, is located in the preamble of [the online version of Allen J. Christenson's translation][3]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/popolvuh/pv-hp.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/20736600 &#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.mesoweb.com/publications/christenson/popolvuh.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1170" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="346" RevisionGUID="b8a4f8a1-cd78-4551-a671-bb42468900da" CreationDate="2015-05-02T18:41:51.473" UserId="57" Comment="added 79 characters in body; edited title" Text="In Balkan folklore, several words that originally meant werewolf (e.g. the Bulgarian vǎrkolak and the Serbian vulkodlak) either ended up being used for both creatures or for vampires alone (e.g the Greek word vrykolakas, a derivative of vǎrkolak). This - to me - suggests that the concept of the vampire is strongly related to and possibly derives from the concept of the werewolf. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is that true? And if so, how did the transition from werewolves to vampires happen? Was it straightforward or was there an intermediate creature that combined characteristics from both species? &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1171" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="346" RevisionGUID="b8a4f8a1-cd78-4551-a671-bb42468900da" CreationDate="2015-05-02T18:41:51.473" UserId="57" Comment="added 79 characters in body; edited title" Text="What is the relationship between werewolves and vampires in Balkan folklore?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1172" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="350" RevisionGUID="dfa92d89-9055-4116-83cd-91a049e5984b" CreationDate="2015-05-02T19:19:53.593" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1173" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="351" RevisionGUID="c0f020e3-7bef-4624-8394-904fd50cde9f" CreationDate="2015-05-02T19:19:53.593" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1174" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="352" RevisionGUID="2a476fbe-d5ce-4056-81b0-f1abcc4922aa" CreationDate="2015-05-02T19:23:59.780" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1175" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="353" RevisionGUID="5146d231-fb97-4da7-8a23-9347337e97b3" CreationDate="2015-05-02T19:23:59.780" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1176" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="354" RevisionGUID="c5d279ac-f3ab-4381-a17f-2a4c0981154e" CreationDate="2015-05-02T21:09:29.497" UserId="183" Text="The Aboriginal people are protective of their culture, and they do not share all of their stories with the rest of the world. For them, much of what transpired is a private matter, and so only some stories can be accessed.&lt;sup&gt;[[1]][[3]][[6]]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The idea of the Dreamtime&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; is an interesting and complex part of Aboriginal culture. As [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreamtime) says, the word was a (mis)translation of an Aboriginal word, *alcheringa*, also transliterated as *altjira*. The Dreamtime, however, is not just a past event. It existed thousands of years ago, exists in the present, and will exist far into the future. It is an entity that forms the basis for Aboriginal spirituality, rituals, and history. Another word, *tjurjunga*, is perhaps a better description of this facet of the concept.&lt;sup&gt;[[2]]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many different Dreamtime stories, arising from the fact that the Aboriginal people are not one group, but a collection of related cultures that happen to live on the same island. This also means that there are many different versions of the same story.&lt;sup&gt;[[3]]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One big problem is that all these stories are completely separate. The Aboriginal people do not have a single *physical* &quot;holy book&quot;, as some religions do, nor do they have a certain set of deities. Rather, they believe that certain spirits - often nameless - or ancestors were responsible for the creation of certain things in their world. These ancestors can take very different forms - not necessarily human - depending on which people are telling the story.&lt;sup&gt;[[4]]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are some specific stories about how certain creatures arose, or how certain features formed. Attempts have been made to correlate these with actual archaeological dates. Unfortunately, there isn't necessarily a connection between when the Aboriginal legends arose and when the things they talk about arose.&lt;sup&gt;[[5]]&lt;/sup&gt; One claim says that some stories go back 65,000 years, making it possible that the stories correctly told of when the creatures were created, if not the actual accurate process.&lt;sup&gt;[[3]]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All of these stories make up the legends of the Dreamtime, but the creation of the world itself in Aboriginal lore is not connected with all of them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is impossible to date all of the different Dreamtime stories, but it seems like you're asking about the actual creation of the world/universe. The exact details of the myth(s) of this period have never been shared with non-Aboriginals, so almost nothing is known about them. There *are* a few separate answers. Some groups believe that the Dreamtime is/was eternal. This belief goes hand in hand with the idea that the Dreamtime is still occurring. The Gunwinggu follow this belief. Another belief is that the creation happened &quot;a long time ago&quot;, or in &quot;the distant past&quot;. Most myths are not concerned with an exact date, simply stating that it happened a long, long time ago.&lt;sup&gt;[[6]]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most comprehensive source I could find on the Dreamtime was [*The Australian Aboriginal &quot;Dreamtime&quot; (Its History, Cosmogenesis Cosmology&#xD;&#xA;and Ontology)* by Colin Dean](http://gamahucherpress.yellowgum.com/books/religion/DREAMTIME1.pdf), which was my source for the last paragraph.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; I'm choosing to use &quot;Dreamtime&quot; throughout the answer to refer to the entire collection of myths, though thanks to competing translations and large language differences, different terms can be used to mean different things.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; [1]: http://www.kateowengallery.com/page/Aboriginal-Dreamtime-Stories.aspx&#xD;&#xA; [2]: http://www.aboriginalartonline.com/culture/dreamtim.php&#xD;&#xA; [3]: http://www.gadimirrabooka.com/dreamtime&#xD;&#xA; [4]: http://www.australianhistory.org/dreamtime&#xD;&#xA; [5]: http://www.aboriginalstories.org.au/aboriginal-storytelling&#xD;&#xA; [6]: http://gamahucherpress.yellowgum.com/books/religion/DREAMTIME1.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1178" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="354" RevisionGUID="3680f3be-401a-45b9-a8c1-5af813c16549" CreationDate="2015-05-02T21:29:39.247" UserId="183" Comment="added 3 characters in body" Text="The Aboriginal people are protective of their culture, and they do not share all of their stories with the rest of the world. For them, much of what transpired is a private matter, and so only some stories can be accessed.&lt;sup&gt;[[1]][[3]][[6]]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The idea of the Dreamtime&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; is an interesting and complex part of Aboriginal culture. As [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreamtime) says, the word was a (mis)translation of an Aboriginal word, *alcheringa*, also transliterated as *altjira*. The Dreamtime, however, is not just a past event. It existed thousands of years ago, exists in the present, and will exist far into the future. It is an entity that forms the basis for Aboriginal spirituality, rituals, and history. Another word, *tjurjunga*, is perhaps a better description of this facet of the concept.&lt;sup&gt;[[2]]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many different Dreamtime stories, arising from the fact that the Aboriginal people are not one group, but a collection of related cultures that happen to live on the same continent. This also means that there are many different versions of the same story.&lt;sup&gt;[[3]]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One big problem is that all these stories are completely separate. The Aboriginal people do not have a single *physical* &quot;holy book&quot;, as some religions do, nor do they have a certain set of deities. Rather, they believe that certain spirits - often nameless - or ancestors were responsible for the creation of certain things in their world. These ancestors can take very different forms - not necessarily human - depending on which people are telling the story.&lt;sup&gt;[[4]]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are some specific stories about how certain creatures arose, or how certain features formed. Attempts have been made to correlate these with actual archaeological dates. Unfortunately, there isn't necessarily a connection between when the Aboriginal legends arose and when the things they talk about arose.&lt;sup&gt;[[5]]&lt;/sup&gt; One claim says that some stories go back 65,000 years, making it possible that the stories correctly told of when the creatures were created, if not the actual accurate process.&lt;sup&gt;[[3]]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All of these stories make up the legends of the Dreamtime, but the creation of the world itself in Aboriginal lore is not connected with all of them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is impossible to date all of the different Dreamtime stories, but it seems like you're asking about the actual creation of the world/universe. The exact details of the myth(s) of this period have never been shared with non-Aboriginals, so almost nothing is known about them. There *are* a few separate answers. Some groups believe that the Dreamtime is/was eternal. This belief goes hand in hand with the idea that the Dreamtime is still occurring. The Gunwinggu follow this belief. Another belief is that the creation happened &quot;a long time ago&quot;, or in &quot;the distant past&quot;. Most myths are not concerned with an exact date, simply stating that it happened a long, long time ago.&lt;sup&gt;[[6]]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most comprehensive source I could find on the Dreamtime was [*The Australian Aboriginal &quot;Dreamtime&quot; (Its History, Cosmogenesis Cosmology&#xD;&#xA;and Ontology)* by Colin Dean](http://gamahucherpress.yellowgum.com/books/religion/DREAMTIME1.pdf), which was my source for the last paragraph.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; I'm choosing to use &quot;Dreamtime&quot; throughout the answer to refer to the entire collection of myths, though thanks to competing translations and large language differences, different terms can be used to mean different things.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; [1]: http://www.kateowengallery.com/page/Aboriginal-Dreamtime-Stories.aspx&#xD;&#xA; [2]: http://www.aboriginalartonline.com/culture/dreamtim.php&#xD;&#xA; [3]: http://www.gadimirrabooka.com/dreamtime&#xD;&#xA; [4]: http://www.australianhistory.org/dreamtime&#xD;&#xA; [5]: http://www.aboriginalstories.org.au/aboriginal-storytelling&#xD;&#xA; [6]: http://gamahucherpress.yellowgum.com/books/religion/DREAMTIME1.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1180" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="354" RevisionGUID="ef935ece-4128-41ea-8f33-d59e703d0539" CreationDate="2015-05-02T21:35:20.000" UserId="183" Comment="Edited Australia error and changed source formatting." Text="The Aboriginal people are protective of their culture, and they do not share all of their stories with the rest of the world. For them, much of what transpired is a private matter, and so only some stories can be accessed.([Aboriginal Dreamtime Stories - Jukurrpa][1], [Gadi Mirrabooka Aboriginal Stories][3], [*The Australian Aboriginal &quot;Dreamtime&quot; (Its History, Cosmogenesis Cosmology&#xD;&#xA;and Ontology)* by Colin Dean][6])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The idea of the Dreamtime&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; is an interesting and complex part of Aboriginal culture. As [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreamtime) says, the word was a (mis)translation of an Aboriginal word, *alcheringa*, also transliterated as *altjira*. The Dreamtime, however, is not just a past event. It existed thousands of years ago, exists in the present, and will exist far into the future. It is an entity that forms the basis for Aboriginal spirituality, rituals, and history. Another word, *tjurjunga*, is perhaps a better description of this facet of the concept.([Aboriginal Art Online][2])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many different Dreamtime stories, arising from the fact that the Aboriginal people are not one group, but a collection of related cultures that happen to live on the same continent. This also means that there are many different versions of the same story.([Gadi Mirrabooka Aboriginal Stories][3])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One big problem is that all these stories are completely separate. The Aboriginal people do not have a single *physical* &quot;holy book&quot;, as some religions do, nor do they have a certain set of deities. Rather, they believe that certain spirits - often nameless - or ancestors were responsible for the creation of certain things in their world. These ancestors can take very different forms - not necessarily human - depending on which people are telling the story.([Australian History - Dreamtime][4])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are some specific stories about how certain creatures arose, or how certain features formed. Attempts have been made to correlate these with actual archaeological dates. Unfortunately, there isn't necessarily a connection between when the Aboriginal legends arose and when the things they talk about arose.([Aboriginal Stories][5]) One claim says that some stories go back 65,000 years, making it possible that the stories correctly told of when the creatures were created, if not the actual accurate process.([Gadi Mirrabooka Aboriginal Stories][3])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All of these stories make up the legends of the Dreamtime, but the creation of the world itself in Aboriginal lore is not connected with all of them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is impossible to date all of the different Dreamtime stories, but it seems like you're asking about the actual creation of the world/universe. The exact details of the myth(s) of this period have never been shared with non-Aboriginals, so almost nothing is known about them. There *are* a few separate answers. Some groups believe that the Dreamtime is/was eternal. This belief goes hand in hand with the idea that the Dreamtime is still occurring. The Gunwinggu follow this belief. Another belief is that the creation happened &quot;a long time ago&quot;, or in &quot;the distant past&quot;. Most myths are not concerned with an exact date, simply stating that it happened a long, long time ago.([*The Australian Aboriginal &quot;Dreamtime&quot; (Its History, Cosmogenesis Cosmology&#xD;&#xA;and Ontology)* by Colin Dean][6])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most comprehensive source I could find on the Dreamtime was [*The Australian Aboriginal &quot;Dreamtime&quot; (Its History, Cosmogenesis Cosmology&#xD;&#xA;and Ontology)* by Colin Dean][6], which was my source for the last paragraph.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; I'm choosing to use &quot;Dreamtime&quot; throughout the answer to refer to the entire collection of myths, though thanks to competing translations and large language differences, different terms can be used to mean different things.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; [1]: http://www.kateowengallery.com/page/Aboriginal-Dreamtime-Stories.aspx&#xD;&#xA; [2]: http://www.aboriginalartonline.com/culture/dreamtim.php&#xD;&#xA; [3]: http://www.gadimirrabooka.com/dreamtime&#xD;&#xA; [4]: http://www.australianhistory.org/dreamtime&#xD;&#xA; [5]: http://www.aboriginalstories.org.au/aboriginal-storytelling&#xD;&#xA; [6]: http://gamahucherpress.yellowgum.com/books/religion/DREAMTIME1.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1181" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="347" RevisionGUID="980f534c-aa6f-49bb-9fff-aaa64ad35262" CreationDate="2015-05-02T21:37:10.833" UserId="108" Comment="added 414 characters in body" Text="Yes, the very common [**divine twins myths**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_twins) are believed to trace back to a shared [Proto-Indo-European](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_religion) narrative. The central motif involves two twins born of the sky deity (or sun), with some customary attributes such as being horsemen or riding horse-drawn chariots.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Another manifestation of the binary conception of society and the world is the cult of twins widespread in Indo-European mythology. A myth of divine twins who are children of the sun god goes back to Proto-Indo-European antiquity. The myth is found in all the main ancient Indo-European traditions, which not only repeat the same motfisbut also share correspondences in the names of the heroes, thus establishing the Proto-Indo-European character of the motif and the personages.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Gamkrelidze, T. V., and Vjaceslav V. I. *Indo-European and the Indo-Europeans: A Reconstruction and Historical Analysis of a Proto-Language and Proto-Culture*. Vol. 80. Walter de Gruyter, 1995. &lt;/sub&gt;** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A variant of this myth is found in all major [Indo-European traditions](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages) of old. It's popularity in very geographically diverse Indo-European cultures allows scholars to securely reconstruct it as a common Proto-Indo-European heritage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In addition, elements of this myth is preserved in the systems of [dual kingships](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diarchy) widespread in antiquity. Examples include the famous [Romulus and Remus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romulus_and_Remus) of [Rome](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Rome), the twins [Eurysthenes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurysthenes) and [Procles](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procles) of [Sparta](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta), and [Hengist and Horsa](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hengist_and_Horsa) of the [Anglo-Saxons](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxons) in Britain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Examples of myths considered linked to a common PIE origin include:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Graeco Roman [Dioskouri](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castor_and_Pollux): *Castor and Pollux* (Greek) or *Gemini and Castores* (Roman).&#xD;&#xA;- Hindu [Nara-Narayana](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nara-Narayana)&#xD;&#xA;- Vedic [Ashwini Kumaras](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashvins)&#xD;&#xA;- Lithuanian [Ašvieniai](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%C5%A1vieniai)&#xD;&#xA;- Germanic [Alics](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcis_(gods))" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1184" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="165" RevisionGUID="e71e7897-d25e-42ed-b0c7-e8633cf35fad" CreationDate="2015-05-02T21:49:52.517" UserId="108" Comment="added 127 characters in body" Text="In Irish mythology, Ireland was once inhabited by the [*Fir Bolg*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fir_Bolg), who were descended from the earlier [*Muintir Nemid*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemed). The Fir Bolg were later defeated by another group of Nemed's descendants known as the [*Tuatha Dé Danann*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuatha_D%C3%A9_Danann) in the [Battle of Cath Maige Tuired](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cath_Maige_Tuired). However, the victors gave the *Fir Bolg* a quarter of Ireland to live in. According to Wikipedia,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [T]he Tuath Dé offer them one quarter of Ireland as their own; they choose Connacht and are mentioned very little after this in the myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Clearly the *Fir Bolg* sunk into oblivion. However, the above quote implies that they were still mentioned at least occasionally - &quot;very little&quot; is more than not at all. What is known to have happened to them? When were they last mentioned?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1186" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="355" RevisionGUID="e93b5d68-85dc-48ce-8e01-d5dc97245955" CreationDate="2015-05-02T22:03:34.060" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="In the Popol Vuh, the twins Hunahpú and Ixbalamqué refuse to tell the Lords of Xibalba who they are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;“Where did you really come from? Would you tell us, boys?” they were asked by&#xD;&#xA;the Xibalbans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;“We must have come from somewhere, but we don’t know.” Only this they said.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;They told them nothing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([the online version of Allen J. Christenson's translation][1])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is this?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.mesoweb.com/publications/christenson/popolvuh.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1187" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="355" RevisionGUID="e93b5d68-85dc-48ce-8e01-d5dc97245955" CreationDate="2015-05-02T22:03:34.060" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="Why don't Hunahpú and Ixbalamqué tell the Lords of Xibalblo their names?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1188" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="355" RevisionGUID="e93b5d68-85dc-48ce-8e01-d5dc97245955" CreationDate="2015-05-02T22:03:34.060" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="|maya|popol-vuh|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1189" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="356" RevisionGUID="2e77d006-e0df-4082-b1ec-aa30f50bb8b7" CreationDate="2015-05-02T22:03:34.060" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="Names have power.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the ways the twins gained power of Xibalba is that they learn their names before they meet them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then they sent an insect named Mosquito. They sent him on ahead to obtain for&#xD;&#xA;them what he could hear:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;... &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Next he bit the third one seated there, who was One Death—“Ouch!” said&#xD;&#xA;&gt; each one when he was bitten. “What?” was their reply:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Ow!” said One Death.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; “What, One Death? What is it?”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; “I am being bitten!”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; “It’s just . . . Ow! What was that? Now I am being bitten!” said the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fourth one seated there.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; “What, Seven Death? What is it?”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; “I am being bitten!”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[this goes on for some time]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thus their names were named. Each of them revealed the name of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; other. Each of the individuals in order of their rank had his name&#xD;&#xA;&gt; revealed by the one who sat next to him, Not one of their names was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; missed until all of the names were named when they were bitten by a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hair that Hunahpu had plucked from the front of his knee. It wasn’t&#xD;&#xA;&gt; really a mosquito that had bitten them. And so Hunahpu and Xbalanque&#xD;&#xA;&gt; heard the names of all of them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This allows the twins to name all of the Lords of Xibalba, and thus have power over them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; All of them had their faces revealed, for all of their names were&#xD;&#xA;&gt; named. Not one of their names was missed. When they were called upon,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they gave the names of each one without leaving any of them out.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Contrast this to how the parents of the twins were tricked by the Lords of Xibalba because they didn't know their names:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thus they [One Hunahpu and Seven Hunahpu, the parents of the twins Hunahpú and Ixbalamqué] did not prevail [because they didn't know who the Lords of Xibalba were, and confused them with wooden statues]. Instead, the lords of Xibalba roared &#xD;&#xA;&gt; with laughter. They merely roared with laughter, all the lords,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; because they had completely prevailed. In their hearts, they had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; defeated One Hunahpu and Seven Hunahpu.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(the above quotations are all from [the online version of Allen J. Christenson's translation][1])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This scene recalls other Central American stories where the hero gains power over others through magical projectiles:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But, adds the Quiché account, &quot;in reality it wasn't the mosquito that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bit and went to hear all the names, but rather a hair that Hunahpú&#xD;&#xA;&gt; plucked out of his shinbone, and it was this that stung them and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; obliged them to say their names.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; This clearly defines the magical technique of affecting events from a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; distance, through invisible darts that sting like the mosquito but&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which really express the personal magical power of the sender. That&#xD;&#xA;&gt; method, invented by Hunahpú, a sage par excellence, explains the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; origin of an interesting magical practice employed by one class of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Chortí wise men, who &quot;foretell by means of the calf of the leg,&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; imitating the pattern laid down by the god-hero who found out the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; names of his adversaries by means of a hair torn from his shin. An&#xD;&#xA;&gt; identical procedure, consisting of throwing out magical darts, is also&#xD;&#xA;&gt; used by Chortí elders who declare they &quot;have shot the god-Seven&quot; when&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by magical art they succeed in making the Agrarian deity descend to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the center of the earth. A similar method is also mentioned in Mexican&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sources which say that the sun, having come to a halt, was stung by a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mosquito in its leg. Ixtlilxóchitl says of this that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; during the Third Age [equivalent to the Age in which the Popol Vuh places the invention of shooting out such magical darts], the sun&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; stood still for one full day without moving from its place; and as the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; mosquito saw the sun so still and pensive, it said, &quot;Lord of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; World, why are you so still and thoughtful and why don't you carry out&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; your duty as you are ordered? Do you want to destroy the world, as you&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; are now doing?&quot; And seeing that the sun was silent and did not answer,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; the mosquito approached and bit it on the leg. Feeling itself bitten,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; the sun began to travel its usual course again.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In another version it is Citli who shoots an arrow at the sun but, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; arrow having missed its mark, the sun kills Citli.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([*Esotericism of the Popol Vuh*][2])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.mesoweb.com/publications/christenson/popolvuh.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/popolvuh/pv-hp.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1195" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="165" RevisionGUID="a3b8a505-8176-4a07-a92e-205915d92fe6" CreationDate="2015-05-02T22:07:17.573" UserId="108" Comment="added 531 characters in body" Text="In Irish mythology, Ireland was once inhabited by the [*Fir Bolg*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fir_Bolg), who were descended from the earlier [*Muintir Nemid*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemed). The Fir Bolg were later defeated by another group of Nemed's descendants known as the [*Tuatha Dé Danann*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuatha_D%C3%A9_Danann) in the [Battle of Cath Maige Tuired](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cath_Maige_Tuired). However, the victors gave the *Fir Bolg* a quarter of Ireland to live in. According to Wikipedia,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [T]he Tuath Dé offer them one quarter of Ireland as their own; they choose Connacht and are mentioned very little after this in the myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Clearly the *Fir Bolg* sunk into oblivion, but they were not exterminated. When the [Milesians](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milesians_%28Irish%29) conquered Ireland, they were apparently still around. [This site](http://homepage.eircom.net/~kthomas/history.htm) says, for instance,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The races that occupied the land when the so-called Milesians came, chiefly the Firbolg and the Tuatha De Danann, were certainly not exterminated by the conquering Milesians. Those two peoples formed the basis of the future population, which was dominated and guided, and had its characteristics moulded, by the far less numerous but more powerful Milesian aristocracy and soldiery.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what happened to the Fir Bolg ultimately? When was them last mentioned as a distinct identity?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1196" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="357" RevisionGUID="be64479c-8116-4cd4-8718-572053fac81a" CreationDate="2015-05-02T22:20:44.180" UserId="87" Text="If I remember the story correctly, Penelope spends over a decade telling her suitors that she will choose one of them as a husband some day, but continues inventing elaborate reasons why she cannot yet make that choice. It seemed clear to the reader that she simply doesn't want to remarry. Which begs the question: Is there a reason why she didn't she just say so?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did the society of ancient Greece not allow a woman to refuse remarriage? Was she so indecisive she couldn't bring herself to either make a choice or refuse to make a choice? Was she afraid they would revolt and try to take her by force if she refused? Was it considered unfathomably rude to ask guests to leave your house, ever? (I recall hospitality toward guests was a common theme in that story)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1197" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="357" RevisionGUID="be64479c-8116-4cd4-8718-572053fac81a" CreationDate="2015-05-02T22:20:44.180" UserId="87" Text="In the Odyssey, why didn't Penelope simply turn away her suitors?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1198" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="357" RevisionGUID="be64479c-8116-4cd4-8718-572053fac81a" CreationDate="2015-05-02T22:20:44.180" UserId="87" Text="|greek|odyssey|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1199" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="358" RevisionGUID="78388052-fd27-45de-9295-f36015140cef" CreationDate="2015-05-02T23:10:23.083" UserId="57" Text="Penelope didn't have a choice. She may have been Queen of Ithaca, but she had little actual power. All men loyal to Odysseus had followed him to Troy, she simply had no way of forcing the suitors to leave the palace.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Telemachus did try to order the suitors out of the palace, in front of the Ithacan assembly, but was ignored: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Telemachus took this speech as of good omen and rose at once, for he was bursting with what he had to say. He stood in the middle of the assembly and the good herald Pisenor brought him his staff. Then, turning to Aegyptius, &quot;Sir,&quot; said he, &quot;it is I, as you will shortly learn, who have convened you, for it is I who am the most aggrieved. I have not got wind of any host approaching about which I would warn you, nor is there any matter of public moment on which I would speak. My grieveance is purely personal, and turns on two great misfortunes which have fallen upon my house. The first of these is the loss of my excellent father, who was chief among all you here present, and was like a father to every one of you; the second is much more serious, and ere long will be the utter ruin of my estate. The sons of all the chief men among you are pestering my mother to marry them against her will. They are afraid to go to her father Icarius, asking him to choose the one he likes best, and to provide marriage gifts for his daughter, but day by day they keep hanging about my father's house, sacrificing our oxen, sheep, and fat goats for their banquets, and never giving so much as a thought to the quantity of wine they drink. No estate can stand such recklessness; we have now no Ulysses to ward off harm from our doors, and I cannot hold my own against them. I shall never all my days be as good a man as he was, still I would indeed defend myself if I had power to do so, for I cannot stand such treatment any longer; my house is being disgraced and ruined. Have respect, therefore, to your own consciences and to public opinion. Fear, too, the wrath of heaven, lest the gods should be displeased and turn upon you. I pray you by Jove and Themis, who is the beginning and the end of councils, [do not] hold back, my friends, and leave me singlehanded- unless it be that my brave father Ulysses did some wrong to the Achaeans which you would now avenge on me, by aiding and abetting these suitors. Moreover, if I am to be eaten out of house and home at all, I had rather you did the eating yourselves, for I could then take action against you to some purpose, and serve you with notices from house to house till I got paid in full, whereas now I have no remedy.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; With this Telemachus dashed his staff to the ground and burst into tears. Every one was very sorry for him, but they all sat still and no one ventured to make him an angry answer, save only Antinous, who spoke thus: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Telemachus, insolent braggart that you are, how dare you try to throw the blame upon us suitors? It is your mother's fault not ours, for she is a very artful woman. This three years past, and close on four, she has been driving us out of our minds, by encouraging each one of us, and sending him messages without meaning one word of what she says. And then there was that other trick she played us. She set up a great tambour frame in her room, and began to work on an enormous piece of fine needlework. 'Sweet hearts,' said she, 'Ulysses is indeed dead, still do not press me to marry again immediately, wait- for I would not have skill in needlework perish unrecorded- till I have completed a pall for the hero Laertes, to be in readiness against the time when death shall take him. He is very rich, and the women of the place will talk if he is laid out without a pall.' &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Odyssey, Book II, translated by Samuel Butler](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/odyssey.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1200" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="358" RevisionGUID="b681a58a-9f89-4933-9373-566ef3b3e493" CreationDate="2015-05-02T23:15:32.923" UserId="57" Comment="added 164 characters in body" Text="Penelope didn't have a choice. She may have been Queen of Ithaca, but she had little actual power. All men loyal to Odysseus had followed him to Troy, she simply had no way of forcing the suitors to leave the palace. And of course she feared that antagonizing the suitors in any way would put Telemachus' life in danger. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nevertheless, Telemachus did try to order the suitors out of the palace, in front of the Ithacan assembly: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Telemachus took this speech as of good omen and rose at once, for he was bursting with what he had to say. He stood in the middle of the assembly and the good herald Pisenor brought him his staff. Then, turning to Aegyptius, &quot;Sir,&quot; said he, &quot;it is I, as you will shortly learn, who have convened you, for it is I who am the most aggrieved. I have not got wind of any host approaching about which I would warn you, nor is there any matter of public moment on which I would speak. My grieveance is purely personal, and turns on two great misfortunes which have fallen upon my house. The first of these is the loss of my excellent father, who was chief among all you here present, and was like a father to every one of you; the second is much more serious, and ere long will be the utter ruin of my estate. The sons of all the chief men among you are pestering my mother to marry them against her will. They are afraid to go to her father Icarius, asking him to choose the one he likes best, and to provide marriage gifts for his daughter, but day by day they keep hanging about my father's house, sacrificing our oxen, sheep, and fat goats for their banquets, and never giving so much as a thought to the quantity of wine they drink. No estate can stand such recklessness; we have now no Ulysses to ward off harm from our doors, and I cannot hold my own against them. I shall never all my days be as good a man as he was, still I would indeed defend myself if I had power to do so, for I cannot stand such treatment any longer; my house is being disgraced and ruined. Have respect, therefore, to your own consciences and to public opinion. Fear, too, the wrath of heaven, lest the gods should be displeased and turn upon you. I pray you by Jove and Themis, who is the beginning and the end of councils, [do not] hold back, my friends, and leave me singlehanded- unless it be that my brave father Ulysses did some wrong to the Achaeans which you would now avenge on me, by aiding and abetting these suitors. Moreover, if I am to be eaten out of house and home at all, I had rather you did the eating yourselves, for I could then take action against you to some purpose, and serve you with notices from house to house till I got paid in full, whereas now I have no remedy.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; With this Telemachus dashed his staff to the ground and burst into tears. Every one was very sorry for him, but they all sat still and no one ventured to make him an angry answer, save only Antinous, who spoke thus: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Telemachus, insolent braggart that you are, how dare you try to throw the blame upon us suitors? It is your mother's fault not ours, for she is a very artful woman. This three years past, and close on four, she has been driving us out of our minds, by encouraging each one of us, and sending him messages without meaning one word of what she says. And then there was that other trick she played us. She set up a great tambour frame in her room, and began to work on an enormous piece of fine needlework. 'Sweet hearts,' said she, 'Ulysses is indeed dead, still do not press me to marry again immediately, wait- for I would not have skill in needlework perish unrecorded- till I have completed a pall for the hero Laertes, to be in readiness against the time when death shall take him. He is very rich, and the women of the place will talk if he is laid out without a pall.' &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Odyssey, Book II, translated by Samuel Butler](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/odyssey.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Telemachus insolence was not only ignored, but it also instigated a plot amongst the suitors to kill him as he returned from his visits to [Nestor][1] and [Menelaus][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestor_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menelaus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1201" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="354" RevisionGUID="26f7c4b0-02fc-4e3a-b152-c58cd36bfbca" CreationDate="2015-05-02T23:19:38.397" UserId="183" Comment="added 161 characters in body" Text="The Aboriginal people are protective of their culture, and they do not share all of their stories with the rest of the world. For them, much of what transpired is a private matter, and so only some stories can be accessed. ([Aboriginal Dreamtime Stories - Jukurrpa][1], [Gadi Mirrabooka Aboriginal Stories][3], [*The Australian Aboriginal &quot;Dreamtime&quot; (Its History, Cosmogenesis Cosmology&#xD;&#xA;and Ontology)* by Colin Dean][6])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The idea of the Dreamtime&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; is an interesting and complex part of Aboriginal culture. As [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreamtime) says, the word was a (mis)translation of an Aboriginal word, *alcheringa*, also transliterated as *altjira*. The Dreamtime, however, is not just a past event. It existed thousands of years ago, exists in the present, and will exist far into the future. It is an entity that forms the basis for Aboriginal spirituality, rituals, and history. Another word, *tjurjunga*, is perhaps a better description of this facet of the concept. ([Aboriginal Art Online][2]) However, different tribes have different languages, and so the usage varies across Australia; *alcheringa* is simply one of the most commonly used terms.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many different Dreamtime stories, arising from the fact that the Aboriginal people are not one group, but a collection of related cultures that happen to live on the same continent. This also means that there are many different versions of the same story. ([Gadi Mirrabooka Aboriginal Stories][3])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One big problem is that all these stories are completely separate. The Aboriginal people do not have a single *physical* &quot;holy book&quot;, as some religions do, nor do they have a certain set of deities. Rather, they believe that certain spirits - often nameless - or ancestors were responsible for the creation of certain things in their world. These ancestors can take very different forms - not necessarily human - depending on which people are telling the story. ([Australian History - Dreamtime][4])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are some specific stories about how certain creatures arose, or how certain features formed. Attempts have been made to correlate these with actual archaeological dates. Unfortunately, there isn't necessarily a connection between when the Aboriginal legends arose and when the things they talk about arose. ([Aboriginal Stories][5]) One claim says that some stories go back 65,000 years, making it possible that the stories correctly told of when the creatures were created, if not the actual accurate process. ([Gadi Mirrabooka Aboriginal Stories][3])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All of these stories make up the legends of the Dreamtime, but the creation of the world itself in Aboriginal lore is not connected with all of them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is impossible to date all of the different Dreamtime stories, but it seems like you're asking about the actual creation of the world/universe. The exact details of the myth(s) of this period have never been shared with non-Aboriginals, so almost nothing is known about them. There *are* a few separate answers. Some groups believe that the Dreamtime is/was eternal. This belief goes hand in hand with the idea that the Dreamtime is still occurring. The Gunwinggu follow this belief. Another belief is that the creation happened &quot;a long time ago&quot;, or in &quot;the distant past&quot;. Most myths are not concerned with an exact date, simply stating that it happened a long, long time ago. ([*The Australian Aboriginal &quot;Dreamtime&quot; (Its History, Cosmogenesis Cosmology&#xD;&#xA;and Ontology)* by Colin Dean][6])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most comprehensive source I could find on the Dreamtime was [*The Australian Aboriginal &quot;Dreamtime&quot; (Its History, Cosmogenesis Cosmology&#xD;&#xA;and Ontology)* by Colin Dean][6], which was my source for the last paragraph.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; I'm choosing to use &quot;Dreamtime&quot; throughout the answer to refer to the entire collection of myths, though thanks to competing translations and large language differences, different terms can be used to mean different things.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; [1]: http://www.kateowengallery.com/page/Aboriginal-Dreamtime-Stories.aspx&#xD;&#xA; [2]: http://www.aboriginalartonline.com/culture/dreamtim.php&#xD;&#xA; [3]: http://www.gadimirrabooka.com/dreamtime&#xD;&#xA; [4]: http://www.australianhistory.org/dreamtime&#xD;&#xA; [5]: http://www.aboriginalstories.org.au/aboriginal-storytelling&#xD;&#xA; [6]: http://gamahucherpress.yellowgum.com/books/religion/DREAMTIME1.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1202" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="358" RevisionGUID="3f2b7f4d-6dba-4c43-815a-6675ea845053" CreationDate="2015-05-02T23:21:25.237" UserId="57" Comment="added 31 characters in body" Text="**tl;dr** Mob rule.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--- &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Penelope didn't have a choice. She may have been Queen of Ithaca, but she had little actual power. All men loyal to Odysseus had followed him to Troy, she simply had no way of forcing the suitors to leave the palace. And of course she feared that antagonizing the suitors in any way would put Telemachus' life in danger. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nevertheless, Telemachus did try to order the suitors out of the palace, in front of the Ithacan assembly: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Telemachus took this speech as of good omen and rose at once, for he was bursting with what he had to say. He stood in the middle of the assembly and the good herald Pisenor brought him his staff. Then, turning to Aegyptius, &quot;Sir,&quot; said he, &quot;it is I, as you will shortly learn, who have convened you, for it is I who am the most aggrieved. I have not got wind of any host approaching about which I would warn you, nor is there any matter of public moment on which I would speak. My grieveance is purely personal, and turns on two great misfortunes which have fallen upon my house. The first of these is the loss of my excellent father, who was chief among all you here present, and was like a father to every one of you; the second is much more serious, and ere long will be the utter ruin of my estate. The sons of all the chief men among you are pestering my mother to marry them against her will. They are afraid to go to her father Icarius, asking him to choose the one he likes best, and to provide marriage gifts for his daughter, but day by day they keep hanging about my father's house, sacrificing our oxen, sheep, and fat goats for their banquets, and never giving so much as a thought to the quantity of wine they drink. No estate can stand such recklessness; we have now no Ulysses to ward off harm from our doors, and I cannot hold my own against them. I shall never all my days be as good a man as he was, still I would indeed defend myself if I had power to do so, for I cannot stand such treatment any longer; my house is being disgraced and ruined. Have respect, therefore, to your own consciences and to public opinion. Fear, too, the wrath of heaven, lest the gods should be displeased and turn upon you. I pray you by Jove and Themis, who is the beginning and the end of councils, [do not] hold back, my friends, and leave me singlehanded- unless it be that my brave father Ulysses did some wrong to the Achaeans which you would now avenge on me, by aiding and abetting these suitors. Moreover, if I am to be eaten out of house and home at all, I had rather you did the eating yourselves, for I could then take action against you to some purpose, and serve you with notices from house to house till I got paid in full, whereas now I have no remedy.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; With this Telemachus dashed his staff to the ground and burst into tears. Every one was very sorry for him, but they all sat still and no one ventured to make him an angry answer, save only Antinous, who spoke thus: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Telemachus, insolent braggart that you are, how dare you try to throw the blame upon us suitors? It is your mother's fault not ours, for she is a very artful woman. This three years past, and close on four, she has been driving us out of our minds, by encouraging each one of us, and sending him messages without meaning one word of what she says. And then there was that other trick she played us. She set up a great tambour frame in her room, and began to work on an enormous piece of fine needlework. 'Sweet hearts,' said she, 'Ulysses is indeed dead, still do not press me to marry again immediately, wait- for I would not have skill in needlework perish unrecorded- till I have completed a pall for the hero Laertes, to be in readiness against the time when death shall take him. He is very rich, and the women of the place will talk if he is laid out without a pall.' &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Odyssey, Book II, translated by Samuel Butler](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/odyssey.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Telemachus insolence was not only ignored, but it also instigated a plot amongst the suitors to kill him as he returned from his visits to [Nestor][1] and [Menelaus][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestor_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menelaus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1203" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="87" RevisionGUID="f5a5d5a3-84e9-4b98-9ba6-a4de85f227cb" CreationDate="2015-05-02T23:24:15.517" UserId="36" Comment="added 7 characters in body" Text="##The [River Styx][1] is one of the five rivers of the  Greek Underworld, rivers that separate Hades from the land of the living.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;During the [Titanomachy][2] (the Titan war), which was fought between the [Titans][3] and the [Olympians][4], the goddess Styx sided with the Olympians. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Once the war was won, [Zeus][5], king of the Olympians, promised that every oath be sworn on Styx's name, as a sign of the greatest respect. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He also proceeded to name the River Styx after her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Achilles][6] was dipped in it as a child and was rewarded with invulnerability, except for his heel, which was where his mother was holding him, hence the term :  Achilles' heel.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The full list of rivers surrounding Hades :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Acheron][7] - the river of woe&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. [Cocytus][8] - the river of lamentation&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. [Phlegethon][9] - the river of fire&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. [Lethe][10] - the river of forgetfulness&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;5. [Styx][11] - the river of hate&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Dor%C3%A9_-_Styx.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanomachy&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Olympians&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://api.ning.com/files/RxYDN27Lud8gaH*HXdHQh26D6YPz4WtXpJRuqmrHryg*U4eTgN1r-I6-zC2k*ZyIHViCvdPCeGVLFh3d5bAfwuWAyyp2aAfV/zeus2.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acheron&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocytus&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phlegethon&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethe&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styx" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1204" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="359" RevisionGUID="9920fd01-f196-4d12-9ceb-08a9d97358ed" CreationDate="2015-05-02T23:35:23.663" UserId="108" Text="Stalling her suitors for as long as possible was probably her best tactic. If she were to turn them away, or even to make a selection, those rejected could well have turned to violence. More generally speaking, `trigger warnings` [rejecting](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/13/mary-spears-mark-dorch-detroit_n_6151152.html) [advances](http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/25/us-usa-stabbing-connecticut-idUSBREA3O1G920140425) [bluntly](http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/14/new-hampshire-man-to-get-life-for-killing-woman-after-rejection/) [is](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/sc-cops-attempted-murder-with-bowling-ball-as-rejected-man-targets-woman/) [not](http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/03/14/texas-man-accused-brutal-13-day-assault/) [always](http://www.mrt.com/top_stories/article_c03b7a17-6871-53fc-82a1-168ee809c49d.html) [the](http://nypost.com/2014/10/08/womans-throat-slashed-after-rejecting-mans-advances/) [safest](http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Woman-eight-moths-pregnant-slammed-on-the-5883072.php) [idea](http://www.annarbor.com/news/crime/ann-arbor-man-allegedly-beats-woman-who-rejected-him-man-who-tried-to-defend-her/). This commonly manifests in Greek mythology ([and](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_de_Clare) [medieval](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_de_Audley,_2nd_Baroness_Audley) [history](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleanor_de_Clare#Marriage_to_William_de_la_Zouche), btw) as abduction.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Abduction of Persephone](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persephone#Abduction_myth) by [Hades](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades)&#xD;&#xA;2. [Attempted abduction of Persephone](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theseus#The_abduction_of_Persephone_and_encounter_with_Hades) by Theseus and [Pirithous](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirithous)&#xD;&#xA;2. [Abduction of Europa](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(mythology)#Abduction)&#xD;&#xA;3. Abduction of [Hilaeira](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilaeira)&#xD;&#xA;4. Abduction of [Phoebe](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebe_(Leucippid))&#xD;&#xA;5. [Attempted abduction of Deianira](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deianira#Death_of_Heracles) by [Nessus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nessus_(mythology))&#xD;&#xA;6. Abduction of [Helen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_of_Troy) by [Theseus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theseus)&#xD;&#xA;8. [Abduction of Orithyia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orithyia) by [Boreas](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anemoi#Boreas)&#xD;&#xA;9. Everyone else raped by [Zeus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus)&#xD;&#xA;10. Abduction of [Chrysippus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysippus_(mythology))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That Helen's father had to institute the [Oath of Tyndareus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyndareus), binding all suitors against quarrels, is a good illustration of the pitfalls of rejecting suitors in Greek mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1206" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="360" RevisionGUID="a31c355c-fd19-409b-9619-509ac11532ea" CreationDate="2015-05-03T00:13:34.103" UserId="10" Text="In Greek mythology, there is [Chiron](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiron), a centaur, and [Charon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charon_%28mythology%29), the ferryman of the Underworld. They couldn't be more different, yet they have such similar names. Is there any reason for this?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1207" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="360" RevisionGUID="a31c355c-fd19-409b-9619-509ac11532ea" CreationDate="2015-05-03T00:13:34.103" UserId="10" Text="Is there any reason that Chiron and Charon have such similar names?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1208" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="360" RevisionGUID="a31c355c-fd19-409b-9619-509ac11532ea" CreationDate="2015-05-03T00:13:34.103" UserId="10" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1209" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="359" RevisionGUID="39181eec-8f85-4741-b495-f972b938ff77" CreationDate="2015-05-03T00:58:56.340" UserId="108" Comment="added 292 characters in body" Text="Stalling her suitors for as long as possible was probably her best tactic. If she were to turn them away, or even to make a selection, those rejected could well have turned to violence. More generally speaking, `trigger warnings` [rejecting](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/13/mary-spears-mark-dorch-detroit_n_6151152.html) [advances](http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/25/us-usa-stabbing-connecticut-idUSBREA3O1G920140425) [bluntly](http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/14/new-hampshire-man-to-get-life-for-killing-woman-after-rejection/) [is](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/sc-cops-attempted-murder-with-bowling-ball-as-rejected-man-targets-woman/) [not](http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/03/14/texas-man-accused-brutal-13-day-assault/) [always](http://www.mrt.com/top_stories/article_c03b7a17-6871-53fc-82a1-168ee809c49d.html) [the](http://nypost.com/2014/10/08/womans-throat-slashed-after-rejecting-mans-advances/) [safest](http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Woman-eight-moths-pregnant-slammed-on-the-5883072.php) [idea](http://www.annarbor.com/news/crime/ann-arbor-man-allegedly-beats-woman-who-rejected-him-man-who-tried-to-defend-her/). This commonly manifests in Greek mythology ([and](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_de_Clare) [medieval](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_de_Audley,_2nd_Baroness_Audley) [history](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleanor_de_Clare#Marriage_to_William_de_la_Zouche), btw) as abduction.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Abduction of Persephone](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persephone#Abduction_myth) by [Hades](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades)&#xD;&#xA;2. [Attempted abduction of Persephone](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theseus#The_abduction_of_Persephone_and_encounter_with_Hades) by Theseus and [Pirithous](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirithous)&#xD;&#xA;2. [Abduction of Europa](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(mythology)#Abduction)&#xD;&#xA;3. Abduction of [Hilaeira](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilaeira)&#xD;&#xA;4. Abduction of [Phoebe](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebe_(Leucippid))&#xD;&#xA;5. [Attempted abduction of Deianira](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deianira#Death_of_Heracles) by [Nessus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nessus_(mythology))&#xD;&#xA;6. Abduction of [Helen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_of_Troy) by [Theseus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theseus)&#xD;&#xA;8. [Abduction of Orithyia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orithyia) by [Boreas](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anemoi#Boreas)&#xD;&#xA;9. Everyone else raped by [Zeus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus)&#xD;&#xA;10. Abduction of [Chrysippus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysippus_(mythology))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which isn't to say that the suitors would have abducted Penelope per se, but that this was an environment where people easily resort to violence to get what they want. Given this context delaying tactics was probably the better option than risking a confrontation with oturight rejection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That Helen's father had to institute the [Oath of Tyndareus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyndareus), binding all suitors against quarrels, is a good illustration of the pitfalls of rejecting suitors in Greek mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1210" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="361" RevisionGUID="57e174a1-2bfc-4c9a-a6ff-531320cef0d3" CreationDate="2015-05-03T01:38:16.033" UserId="171" Text="As far as I understood the myth of Medusa, she was punished by Athena (either for letting herself being raped by Poseidon or for [succumbing to Poseidon's woes][1]). Her sisters, Euryale and Stheno (all daughters of Phorcys and Ceto) stood with Medusa, and Athena transformed all of them in _gorgons_.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm not surprised about the punishment of te gods, neither to Medusa for her offenses nor to her sisters for staying with her (most Greek mythos depict similar punishments for something that is almost responsibility of the gods), but I'm surprised by the fact that Medusa is depicted as the only mortal of the Gorgons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why this difference between the three of them? Is something that is attributable to Athena when transforming the sisters? Or for any reason they were different in spite of being daughters of the same father and mother? Is is just due to the definition of &quot;inmortal&quot; (meaning from &quot;not growing old&quot; to &quot;can't be killed or die&quot;)? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]:http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/299/171" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1211" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="361" RevisionGUID="57e174a1-2bfc-4c9a-a6ff-531320cef0d3" CreationDate="2015-05-03T01:38:16.033" UserId="171" Text="Why was Medusa the only mortal of the Gorgons?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1212" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="361" RevisionGUID="57e174a1-2bfc-4c9a-a6ff-531320cef0d3" CreationDate="2015-05-03T01:38:16.033" UserId="171" Text="|greek|medusa|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1213" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="362" RevisionGUID="4f31a24d-9d96-477b-8fe3-c1be83aff610" CreationDate="2015-05-03T02:13:36.780" UserId="171" Text="I remember reading a reference of a tale (I think it was on Joseph Campbell's _Hero of Thousand Faces_, but I have to search for this passage and than provide a proper quotation and reference here) in which a man sees a pregnant woman who walks next to the river shore. Then, she gives birth to a child and after that, here face transforms on that of a hideous monster, devours that child she just gave birth to an leaves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Many deities are both givers of life and bringers of destruction. You (as a creation-child of this divinity) are given a life, but are irremediable condemned to die too. _Time_, embodied by Chronos will give you origin, but then you'll age, and _Time_ will eventually take your life. This duality bringer of life/destruction applies to many divine entities (there is no Life without Death) and highlights the cyclic nature of life/time in many different cultures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, the significance of _eating its own children_ is that the creator divinity gives its creations a life which will have an end. There is a cyclic nature for birth, death and (re)birth and the divinity does not consider the death of the creations-children as something evil (even if its _eating_ them). It is part of the cycle." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1214" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="110" RevisionGUID="5b0229f2-6c01-48ad-ac0f-22fe63d80bef" CreationDate="2015-05-03T02:39:28.087" UserId="183" Comment="&quot;cross-mythology&quot; helps categorize the question." Text="|greek|roman|cross-mythology|history|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1215" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="110" RevisionGUID="5b0229f2-6c01-48ad-ac0f-22fe63d80bef" CreationDate="2015-05-03T02:39:28.087" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 108, 38 edit id of 79" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1216" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="352" RevisionGUID="7c67c38c-ac98-40c4-a706-9e6ed6310399" CreationDate="2015-05-03T03:19:35.330" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 39 characters in body" Text="The supreme sky god of greek mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1217" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="352" RevisionGUID="7c67c38c-ac98-40c4-a706-9e6ed6310399" CreationDate="2015-05-03T03:19:35.330" Comment="Proposed by 62 approved by 57, 79 edit id of 76" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1218" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="349" RevisionGUID="4ad7ba95-b222-4ab0-b181-4c22945a9156" CreationDate="2015-05-03T03:28:38.297" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="clarified Xibalba" Text="There are three different &quot;lenses&quot; that we can use to answer this question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# What is &quot;ball&quot;?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's a description of a similar ball game played by the Aztecs&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These balls... were solid, of a certain resin or gum which is called ulli [rubber] which is very light in weight and bounces like an inflated ball.... The ballgame was called tlaxtli or tlachtli. The court consisted of two walls with some twenty or thirty feet of distance between them and each was up to forty or fifty feet in length. The floor and walls were heavily plastered, the latter having some one and a half estados [nearly ten feet] in height. In the middle of the court was a line made especially for the game; and in the middle of the walls, halfway down the playing stretch, were two stones like millstones perforated in the middle, facing each other, and they each had holes wide enough that the ball could fit into each of them. And whoever placed the ball there won the game. They did not play with their hands but hit the ball with their flanks. For playing they wore gloves on their hands and a leather apron on their flanks to hit the ball (Sahagún 1938, II.viii.10, pp. 297-298).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([the online version of Allen J. Christenson's translation][3])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# The Game's Role in the Plot&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Just to summarise, the general plot of the Popol Vuh is one of a creation myth. It tells the story of how the gods created the worlds, the animals, and of the god's several attempts to create humans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An important thing to note is that the reason behind the failure of the gods several attempts to create humans is that their attempts could not speak the names of the gods (e.g. know of them or worship them). Here's an example of this (this passage accounts why just creating animals was insufficient):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Speak therefore our names. Worship  us, for we are your Mother and your Father. Say this, therefore: ‘Huracan, Youngest Thunderbolt, and Sudden Thunderbolt, Heart of Sky and Heart of Earth, Framer and Shaper, She Who Has Borne Children and He Who Has Begotten Sons.’ Speak! Call upon us! Worship us!” they were told.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; But they did not succeed. They did not speak like people. They only squawked and chattered and roared. Their speech was unrecognizable, for each cried out in a&#xD;&#xA;different way.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;When they heard this, the Framer and the Shaper said, “Their speech did not&#xD;&#xA;&gt;turn out well.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;And again they said to each other:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; “They were not able to speak our names. We are their Framer and their Shaper.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This is not good,” said She Who Has Borne Children and He Who Has Begotten Sons to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; each other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([the online version of Allen J. Christenson's translation][3])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Xibalba (the underworld) doesn't appear until after three failed creation attempts (the second and third attempts failed for the same reason as the first creation attempt). They first appear to oppose the fathers of the twins, &quot;One Hunahpu and Seven Hunahpu,&quot; who, it is important to note, were &quot;born to Xpiyacoc and Xmucane&quot; (two of the seven gods who created the world) ([Christenson][3]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “What is happening on the surface of the earth? They are just stomping about and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shouting. May they be summoned here therefore. They shall come to play ball, and we&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shall defeat them. They have simply failed to honor us. They have neither honor nor&#xD;&#xA;&gt; respect. Certainly they act arrogantly here over our heads,” said therefore all&#xD;&#xA;&gt; those of Xibalba.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Christenson][3])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It should become clear that the lords of Xibalba are an opposing force to the creation god(desses). Not only are they the lords of death, but they, like the lords of creation, also want recognition from humans. As explained in the online book [*Esotericism of the Popol Vuh*][1]&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; (which uses a different translation of the Popol Vuh):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; We have here a contest between opposing forces, since those of Xibalbá cannot tolerate that &quot; 'anyone greater than they, or any having greater power, should exist,' they all said unanimously.&quot; From this passage it is seen that the organization of the false gods is similar to that of the true since, like the latter, the false gods compose a sevenfold entity whose components must get together and reach decisions by a unanimity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the plot perspective, the game &quot;ball&quot; is simply a competition to resolve the conflict, and the story wouldn't be much different if they played chess or another game.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Just to clarify the plot: One Hunahpu and Seven Hunahpu are defeated by Xibalba, but their sons learn to play ball, go to Xibalba, and defeat the Lords of Xibalba. Afterwords, humans are finally created.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# The Symbolic Interpretation of the Game&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, another way of looking at the game is as a symbol representing the sky. From [*Esotericism of the Popol Vuh*][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Besides symbolizing the sun's relative position in the order of its rising and its daily trajectory, Hunahpú and Ixbalamqué, playing alone for a long time on opposite sides of the court, represent the position of the sun and the moon at opposing solstices, just as this continues to be depicted on Chortí altars. All this unmistakably reflects a gradual progress in astronomic and cosmogonic knowledge. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Popol Vuh is the only American source to speak of the origin of the ball game and place it in time. Not only does it tell us of the game's ethnological antiquity, it also explains its symbolism. It in fact establishes a parallel between the ball players and the solar gods, which from the angles of the universe — to employ the phraseology of the Chumayel manuscript — meet in the center, in this case in the ball court, where they can convert themselves into two and even four persons with no loss of their theogonic individuality, at once a unity and a multiplicity. During the ball game they wear their resplendent ceremonial gear — that is, they exhibit their insignia as solar deities. Two by two they come from the eastern and western sectors of the cosmos and, meeting in the center, forge themselves into the individuality of Heart of Heaven. This fusion of a number of forms under &quot;one single head,&quot; as the Chortís say, is expressed in the principal rule of the game which is that the players can touch the ball only with their body but never with their heads, feet, or arms; each time this happens a point is given the other team. The continual contact of two or four bodies with a single ball makes clear the monotheistic principle whereby the deity integrates itself through the union of its hypostases. This idea is objectified in the group of ball players unable to use their heads or extremities since the ball — the symbol of the Star or Sun god — is alternatively the head of each. This figure of a single-headed god having many bodies is characteristic of Maya thought. We need only to remember Oxlahun-oc (&quot;it of the thirteen feet&quot;), who is mentioned in the Chilam Balam of Chumayel. The motion of the ball imitates the trajectory of the sun, a figure that the Chortí actors also reproduce in their dramatization of this part of the Popol Vuh. Besides this, the Quiché codex represents the descent of god-Seven from the Center of Heaven to the center of the earth by the solar bird which, coming down from on high, &quot;came to see them play.&quot; As said, in Chortí religious allegory the bird of prey, which is the mask, nahual, or messenger of the deity of Heaven, descends vertically to the center of the earth — like the sun's rays — when the daystar goes through the zenith, symbolizing the descent of divine grace. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This interpretation lends a new interpretation to the text: Xibalba, the &quot;Lords of the subterrene regions&quot; ([*Esotericism*][1]) are in conflict with the lords of the sky (the creators of the world) over power over the living world. The punishment of the Lords of Xibalba (&quot;you... shall no longer be allowed to play ball.&quot;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;) reflects that Xibalba is restricted to a subteranian sphere, and that the power of death is limited. This may be one of the reasons why the gods can then create humans who &quot;can speak their name.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, we don't know enough to know without a doubt the real symbolism behind the ball game&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;. The conquistadors deliberately supressed indiginous culture when they conquored central america, and only four written mayan documents remain. It's impossible to understate the destruction that these cultures faced, and we are very fortunate that texts like the Popol Vuh still exist.&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; I am continuously amazed at the quality of sources on mythology available online. Why would anyone want to read wikipedia?  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; This line does not occur in the Christenson translation, but the Lords of Xibalba still faced severe restrictions on their power.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; There is disagreement about the meaning of the ball game.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; A good account of the translation can be found [on JStor (behind a paywall)][2]. Another account, which also discusses the cultural destruction of the maya, is located in the preamble of [the online version of Allen J. Christenson's translation][3]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/popolvuh/pv-hp.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/20736600 &#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.mesoweb.com/publications/christenson/popolvuh.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1219" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="363" RevisionGUID="78f15ea1-af05-4183-81f6-9c924df9f29d" CreationDate="2015-05-03T04:27:32.117" UserId="79" Text="The reason the same term was end up using for two creatures, which were very different, was because they were connected. But not in a sense of family ties. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;![enter image description here][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;sup&gt;source: pg 800, The Vampire Book: The Encyclopedia of the Undead, J. Gordon Melton&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The reason to be believe so was because, the Slavs and Balkans believed that *vampire* was a stage that came after the *werewolf*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;![enter image description here][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sub&gt;source: pg xiv, The Vampire in Lore and Legend, Montague Summers&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since the vampires were creatures that were werewolves before their death, it is natural for the terms to be connected. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another [myth](http://www.sacred-texts.com/goth/vkk/vkk03.htm) from the same region:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;those who had eaten the flesh of a sheep killed by a wolf might become vampires after death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sub&gt;source: Curtius Wachsmutt, Das alte Griechenland im Neuen, p. 117&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In both cases, the transition to a vampire comes *after* the event related with the wolf. Hence the base of the term is connected with the werewolf.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Note: As for the transition in appearance and characteristics, I'm still researching on it and can't seem to find the appearance descriptions (no two sources say the same). Other answers are welcome :D &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/aOsDd.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/JI6px.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1220" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="361" RevisionGUID="519fa798-a87a-4d84-9bed-10853553c014" CreationDate="2015-05-03T06:34:20.447" UserId="79" Comment="edited body" Text="As far as I understood the myth of Medusa, she was punished by Athena (either for letting herself being raped by Poseidon or for [succumbing to Poseidon's woes][1]). Her sisters, Euryale and Stheno (all daughters of Phorcys and Ceto) stood with Medusa, and Athena transformed all of them in _gorgons_.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm not surprised about the punishment of te gods, neither to Medusa for her offenses nor to her sisters for staying with her (most Greek mythos depict similar punishments for something that is almost responsibility of the gods), but I'm surprised by the fact that Medusa is depicted as the only mortal of the Gorgons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why this difference between the three of them? Is something that is attributable to Athena when transforming the sisters? Or for any reason they were different in spite of being daughters of the same father and mother? Is is just due to the definition of &quot;immortal&quot; (meaning from &quot;not growing old&quot; to &quot;can't be killed or die&quot;)? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]:http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/299/171" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1221" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="80" RevisionGUID="4df295de-eece-40eb-8f1a-14ed2f674dbb" CreationDate="2015-05-03T06:41:35.780" UserId="36" Comment="added 4 characters in body; added 2 characters in body" Text="The River Styx is mentioned quite alot when our Greek hero meets his demise. &#xA;&#xA;However is this really a body of water in Hades? &#xA;&#xA;Is it made out of something else? &#xA;&#xA;What is the River Styx?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1222" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="364" RevisionGUID="41c94fdf-bd54-47fb-9af1-6ec467ed6f03" CreationDate="2015-05-03T07:16:43.200" UserId="108" Text="In Greek mythology, the deceased pays a ferryman, [Charon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charon_(mythology)), to take them across the river [Styx](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styx). Apparently this reflects a common custom in the funeral rites of antiquity. Sometimes, though not always, a coin is placed in the deceased's mouth as a toll. This is known as [Charon's obol](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charon%27s_obol).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [this book](https://books.google.com/books?id=LIcL56NQ3gsC&amp;lpg=PA67&amp;dq=charon%20toll%20mouth&amp;pg=PA67#v=onepage&amp;q=charon%20toll%20mouth&amp;f=false):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In ancient times a coin, known as Charon's toll, was often placed in the mouth of a corpse prior to burial as payment to Charon, to ensure the deceased was seen safely into the underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But why the mouth? Are there anything from Greco-Roman mythology to explain why the ferry fee should go into this orifice?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1223" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="364" RevisionGUID="41c94fdf-bd54-47fb-9af1-6ec467ed6f03" CreationDate="2015-05-03T07:16:43.200" UserId="108" Text="Why is the ferry toll for Charon placed in the dead person's mouth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1224" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="364" RevisionGUID="41c94fdf-bd54-47fb-9af1-6ec467ed6f03" CreationDate="2015-05-03T07:16:43.200" UserId="108" Text="|greco-roman|funerals|afterllife|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1225" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="365" RevisionGUID="7ef90b53-738a-4b12-a357-92d1adee290f" CreationDate="2015-05-03T07:21:13.163" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1226" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="366" RevisionGUID="937949e3-4719-4f15-8dc5-3cf1ce8fa5ca" CreationDate="2015-05-03T07:21:13.163" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1227" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="367" RevisionGUID="a876a7cd-9e99-4d13-a929-4bb24331f75e" CreationDate="2015-05-03T07:48:42.593" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1228" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="368" RevisionGUID="9dc7f64e-a738-44ba-a01a-1be9ba16cd2a" CreationDate="2015-05-03T07:48:42.593" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1229" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="361" RevisionGUID="6f23c441-902a-497f-9a1e-f3e2ae8c90ad" CreationDate="2015-05-03T09:50:16.083" UserId="57" Comment="added 590 characters in body" Text="As far as I understood the myth of Medusa, she was punished by Athena (either for letting herself being raped by Poseidon or for [succumbing to Poseidon's woes][1]). Her sisters, Euryale and Stheno (all daughters of Phorcys and Ceto) stood with Medusa, and Athena transformed all of them in _gorgons_.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm not surprised about the punishment of the gods, neither to Medusa for her offenses nor to her sisters for staying with her (most Greek mythos depict similar punishments for something that is almost responsibility of the gods), but I'm surprised by the fact that Medusa is depicted as the only mortal of the Gorgons: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And again, Ceto bore to Phorcys the fair-cheeked Graiae, sisters grey from their birth: and both deathless gods and men who walk on earth call them Graiae, Pemphredo well-clad, and saffron-robed Enyo, and the Gorgons who dwell beyond glorious Ocean in the frontier land towards Night where are the clear-voiced Hesperides, Sthenno, and Euryale, and Medusa who suffered a woeful fate: **she was mortal, but the two were undying and grew not old.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hes. Th. 275](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hes.+Th.+275&amp;fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why this difference between the three of them? Is something that is attributable to Athena when transforming the sisters? Or for any reason they were different in spite of being daughters of the same father and mother? Is is just due to the definition of &quot;immortal&quot; (meaning from &quot;not growing old&quot; to &quot;can't be killed or die&quot;)? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]:http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/299/171" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1230" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="369" RevisionGUID="ca02dc6c-d3c8-485d-b47a-f4b8af7eaa83" CreationDate="2015-05-03T12:26:33.450" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1231" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="370" RevisionGUID="aff97d05-74c0-4504-8830-d0c236a486bd" CreationDate="2015-05-03T12:26:33.450" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1232" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="53" RevisionGUID="20f6d709-bd0a-4564-96c8-be8d7241eb17" CreationDate="2015-05-03T13:00:18.447" UserId="-1" Comment="104" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:93,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;fredsbend&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:86,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;meneldal&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:79,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ero Sɘnnin&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:108,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Semaphore&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:98,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;PythonMaster&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="1233" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="371" RevisionGUID="bf1cb3fb-2dd8-4420-a2ad-ee92a22381c4" CreationDate="2015-05-03T13:04:17.613" UserId="108" Text="In Judeo-Christian traditions, [Heaven](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven) is defended by an army of good angels known as the [Heavenly Host](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavenly_host). Christian mythology from the [Book of Revelation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation) that the Heavenly Host will take part in the [War in Heaven](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Heaven) and defeat the army of Satan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does God Himself command the Heavenly Host in combat? Or does God delegate the responsibility to an angelic commander? [Revelation 12](https://bible.org/netbible/index.htm?rev12.htm) says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 12:7 Then war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which seems to suggest that [Michael](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_%28archangel%29) is in command for at least that conflict. Is that the typical situation? Why doesn't God command his side in the war?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1234" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="371" RevisionGUID="bf1cb3fb-2dd8-4420-a2ad-ee92a22381c4" CreationDate="2015-05-03T13:04:17.613" UserId="108" Text="Who commands the Heavenly Host in combat?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1235" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="371" RevisionGUID="bf1cb3fb-2dd8-4420-a2ad-ee92a22381c4" CreationDate="2015-05-03T13:04:17.613" UserId="108" Text="|judeo-christian|angels|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1236" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="372" RevisionGUID="e4d0209f-779d-4d68-a6d1-7eb286c11c07" CreationDate="2015-05-03T13:53:56.457" UserId="98" Text="According to Norse Mythology, Ragnarök is a series of future events that means great disasters for the world and the end of many important and powerful gods:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Norse mythology, Ragnarök is a series of future events, including a great battle foretold to ultimately result in the death of a number of major figures (including the gods Odin, Thor, Týr, Freyr, Heimdallr, and Loki), the occurrence of various natural disasters, and the subsequent submersion of the world in water. Afterward, the world will resurface anew and fertile, the surviving and returning gods will meet, and the world will be repopulated by two human survivors . Ragnarök is an important event in the Norse canon, and has been the subject of scholarly discourse and theory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After Ragnarök, it is said that the world will be repopulated with two human survivors. How will these two human survivors be chosen? Will they be randomly chosen or selected by the remaining gods who didn't die during Ragnarök?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1237" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="372" RevisionGUID="e4d0209f-779d-4d68-a6d1-7eb286c11c07" CreationDate="2015-05-03T13:53:56.457" UserId="98" Text="How are the two humans selected to repopulate the world after Ragnarök?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1238" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="372" RevisionGUID="e4d0209f-779d-4d68-a6d1-7eb286c11c07" CreationDate="2015-05-03T13:53:56.457" UserId="98" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1239" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="373" RevisionGUID="eaed8265-9dfa-43f1-adc7-e90632d2bd45" CreationDate="2015-05-03T14:03:04.003" UserId="18" Text="*This is a rather quick answer, and I will expand on it after I get back from church.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In short, God is too powerful. One twitch of a (metaphorical) muscle, and **poof** everything is gone. Throughout the Bible, it is clear that there are many, many situations where God does not directly do some work Himself, but rather delegates it to another being. For instance, the Christian church grew from ~120 to 3000+ to 2 billion through the efforts of human evangelism. (Yes, God played a big role, but hardly anyone ever converts to Christianity without being told about it.) Similarly, the devil (also known as Lucifer) and his minions, the demons, attack humans and particularly Jews/Christians, and Michael and the angels fight back. A rather popular misconception among Christians is that God and Satan are equals. This is entirely wrong. *Michael* and Satan are equals. Furthermore, there is additional symbolic meaning to be found in the fact that there is a spiritual war between angels and demons, and I will elaborate on this later.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To directly answer your questions, God *does* command His side in the war, but not directly, and Michael is essentially His second-in-command. So, Michael is the foremost angel of the Heavenly Host, but God is the Commander-in-Chief." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1240" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="370" RevisionGUID="cda41ad4-83e0-4d3b-8e7e-cf68bf5bf245" CreationDate="2015-05-03T14:14:26.653" UserId="171" Comment="added 94 characters in body" Text="One of the gorgons, monsters with hair made of serpents whose gaze could turn people to stone." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1241" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="370" RevisionGUID="cda41ad4-83e0-4d3b-8e7e-cf68bf5bf245" CreationDate="2015-05-03T14:14:26.653" Comment="Proposed by 171 approved by 108, 79 edit id of 83" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1242" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="369" RevisionGUID="64f10ad5-3a59-49c1-bc23-c7a52bcce855" CreationDate="2015-05-03T14:14:36.017" UserId="171" Comment="added 256 characters in body" Text="Medusa was a priestess of Athena, whose beauty attracted the attention of god Poseidon. Poseidon had sex with her in Athena's temple, and for this offense Athena transformed Medusa in a monster with serpents for hair and which gaze would turn men to stone." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1243" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="369" RevisionGUID="64f10ad5-3a59-49c1-bc23-c7a52bcce855" CreationDate="2015-05-03T14:14:36.017" Comment="Proposed by 171 approved by 108, 79 edit id of 82" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1244" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="374" RevisionGUID="55de6094-eacf-444b-8444-ea299a6eb0e3" CreationDate="2015-05-03T14:35:00.800" UserId="183" Text="[Wikipedia](https\://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charon%27s_obol) actually has an interesting interpretation:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Attempts to explain the symbolism of the rite also must negotiate the illogical placement of the coin in the mouth. The Latin term *viaticum* makes sense of Charon’s obol as “sustenance for the journey,” and it has been suggested that coins replaced offerings of food for the dead in Roman tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This dichotomy of food for the living and gold for the dead is a theme in the myth of King Midas, versions of which draw on elements of the Dionysian mysteries. The Phrygian king's famous &quot;golden touch&quot; was a divine gift from Dionysus, but its acceptance separated him from the human world of nourishment and reproduction: both his food and his daughter were transformed by contact with him into immutable, unreciprocal gold. In some versions of the myth, Midas's hard-won insight into the meaning of life and the limitations of earthly wealth is accompanied by conversion to the cult of Dionysus. Having learned his lessons as an initiate into the mysteries, and after ritual immersion in the river Pactolus, Midas forsakes the “bogus eternity” of gold for spiritual rebirth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This, though, is more of an effort to explain the practice, as opposed to something based in Greek or Roman mythology. A related interpretation is that the coin symbolically seals the mouth, as the dead cannot talk.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I may be reading too much into this, but [*The Golden Ass*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Ass), by Apuleius, [contains this passage](http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Kharon.html) (emphasis mine):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (So even among the dead, greed enjoys its life; even that great god Charon, who gathers taxes for Dis [Haides], does not do anything for nothing. A poor man on the point of death must find his fare, and **no one will let him breathe his last until he has his copper ready.**) You must allow this squalid elder to take for your fare one of the coins you are to carry, but he must remove it form your mouth with his own hand.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This seems to support the idea that the coin sealed a dead person's mouth, but it could be merely a complete coincidence; &quot;breathe his last&quot; could be used in place of &quot;die&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[*Charon's Obol and Other Coins in Ancient Funerary Practice*, by Susan T. Stevens](http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1088792?uid=2134&amp;uid=391386161&amp;uid=3739808&amp;uid=2&amp;uid=391386151&amp;uid=70&amp;uid=3&amp;uid=3739256&amp;uid=60&amp;purchase-type=article&amp;accessType=none&amp;sid=21106252287221&amp;showMyJstorPss=false&amp;seq=6&amp;showAccess=false), gives evidence to support the *viaticum*-coin-as-sustenance theory, citing Apuleis's usage but as food, not breath. She does mention that other &quot;Latin authors&quot; (unspecified) wrote that the coin was used to seal the mouth to prevent the soul from escaping." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1245" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="364" RevisionGUID="2bee7d0d-6fee-4e10-938a-0c0ac65dad77" CreationDate="2015-05-03T14:37:36.657" UserId="183" Comment="Corrected tag spelling." Text="|greco-roman|funerals|afterlife|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1246" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="364" RevisionGUID="2bee7d0d-6fee-4e10-938a-0c0ac65dad77" CreationDate="2015-05-03T14:37:36.657" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by -1 edit id of 84" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1247" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="364" RevisionGUID="0719a378-2729-4f12-86f9-dede448ee772" CreationDate="2015-05-03T14:37:36.657" UserId="108" Comment="Corrected tag spelling." Text="|underworld|greco-roman|funerals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1248" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="374" RevisionGUID="d6b54385-a7b0-456d-a53a-3584f0e706d1" CreationDate="2015-05-03T14:46:30.053" UserId="183" Comment="Added in another (better) Wikipedia quote." Text="[Wikipedia](https\://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charon%27s_obol) actually has an interesting interpretation:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Attempts to explain the symbolism of the rite also must negotiate the illogical placement of the coin in the mouth. The Latin term *viaticum* makes sense of Charon’s obol as “sustenance for the journey,” and it has been suggested that coins replaced offerings of food for the dead in Roman tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This dichotomy of food for the living and gold for the dead is a theme in the myth of King Midas, versions of which draw on elements of the Dionysian mysteries. The Phrygian king's famous &quot;golden touch&quot; was a divine gift from Dionysus, but its acceptance separated him from the human world of nourishment and reproduction: both his food and his daughter were transformed by contact with him into immutable, unreciprocal gold. In some versions of the myth, Midas's hard-won insight into the meaning of life and the limitations of earthly wealth is accompanied by conversion to the cult of Dionysus. Having learned his lessons as an initiate into the mysteries, and after ritual immersion in the river Pactolus, Midas forsakes the “bogus eternity” of gold for spiritual rebirth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This, though, is more of an effort to explain the practice, as opposed to something based in Greek or Roman mythology. A related interpretation is that the coin symbolically seals the mouth, as the dead cannot talk.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia also says,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Latin, Charon's obol sometimes is called a viaticum, or &quot;sustenance for the journey&quot;; the placement of the coin on the mouth has been explained also as a seal to protect the deceased's soul or to prevent it from returning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I may be reading too much into this, but [*The Golden Ass*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Ass), by Apuleius, [contains this passage](http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Kharon.html) (emphasis mine):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (So even among the dead, greed enjoys its life; even that great god Charon, who gathers taxes for Dis [Haides], does not do anything for nothing. A poor man on the point of death must find his fare, and **no one will let him breathe his last until he has his copper ready.**) You must allow this squalid elder to take for your fare one of the coins you are to carry, but he must remove it form your mouth with his own hand.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This seems to support the idea that the coin sealed a dead person's mouth, but it could be merely a complete coincidence; &quot;breathe his last&quot; could be used in place of &quot;die&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[*Charon's Obol and Other Coins in Ancient Funerary Practice*, by Susan T. Stevens](http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1088792?uid=2134&amp;uid=391386161&amp;uid=3739808&amp;uid=2&amp;uid=391386151&amp;uid=70&amp;uid=3&amp;uid=3739256&amp;uid=60&amp;purchase-type=article&amp;accessType=none&amp;sid=21106252287221&amp;showMyJstorPss=false&amp;seq=6&amp;showAccess=false), gives evidence to support the *viaticum*-coin-as-sustenance theory, citing Apuleis's usage but as food, not breath. She does mention that other &quot;Latin authors&quot; (unspecified) wrote that the coin was used to seal the mouth to prevent the soul from escaping." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1249" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="374" RevisionGUID="71964c1a-996c-4af3-8689-976cfa516ea6" CreationDate="2015-05-03T14:53:16.507" UserId="183" Comment="Added in another (better) Wikipedia quote and added some references used therein." Text="[Wikipedia](https\://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charon%27s_obol) actually has an interesting interpretation:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Attempts to explain the symbolism of the rite also must negotiate the illogical placement of the coin in the mouth. The Latin term *viaticum* makes sense of Charon’s obol as “sustenance for the journey,” and it has been suggested that coins replaced offerings of food for the dead in Roman tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This dichotomy of food for the living and gold for the dead is a theme in the myth of King Midas, versions of which draw on elements of the Dionysian mysteries. The Phrygian king's famous &quot;golden touch&quot; was a divine gift from Dionysus, but its acceptance separated him from the human world of nourishment and reproduction: both his food and his daughter were transformed by contact with him into immutable, unreciprocal gold. In some versions of the myth, Midas's hard-won insight into the meaning of life and the limitations of earthly wealth is accompanied by conversion to the cult of Dionysus. Having learned his lessons as an initiate into the mysteries, and after ritual immersion in the river Pactolus, Midas forsakes the “bogus eternity” of gold for spiritual rebirth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This, though, is more of an effort to explain the practice, as opposed to something based in Greek or Roman mythology. A related interpretation is that the coin symbolically seals the mouth, as the dead cannot talk.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia also says,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Latin, Charon's obol sometimes is called a viaticum, or &quot;sustenance for the journey&quot;; the placement of the coin on the mouth has been explained also as a seal to protect the deceased's soul or to prevent it from returning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The basis for these interpretations are analyses of Latin writers; the theories stem from, among others, &quot;Charon's Obol&quot; by Susan T. Stevens (see below), *Money and the Early Greek Mind: Homer, Philosophy, Tragedy*, by Richard Seaford, and *Modern Greek Folklore and Ancient Greek Religion*, by John Cuthbert Lawson. The above quotes are condensations of their work as historians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I may be reading too much into this, but [*The Golden Ass*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Ass), by Apuleius, [contains this passage](http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Kharon.html) (emphasis mine):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (So even among the dead, greed enjoys its life; even that great god Charon, who gathers taxes for Dis [Haides], does not do anything for nothing. A poor man on the point of death must find his fare, and **no one will let him breathe his last until he has his copper ready.**) You must allow this squalid elder to take for your fare one of the coins you are to carry, but he must remove it form your mouth with his own hand.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This seems to support the idea that the coin sealed a dead person's mouth, but it could be merely a complete coincidence; &quot;breathe his last&quot; could be used in place of &quot;die&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[*Charon's Obol and Other Coins in Ancient Funerary Practice*, by Susan T. Stevens](http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1088792?uid=2134&amp;uid=391386161&amp;uid=3739808&amp;uid=2&amp;uid=391386151&amp;uid=70&amp;uid=3&amp;uid=3739256&amp;uid=60&amp;purchase-type=article&amp;accessType=none&amp;sid=21106252287221&amp;showMyJstorPss=false&amp;seq=6&amp;showAccess=false), gives evidence to support the *viaticum*-coin-as-sustenance theory, citing Apuleis's usage but as food, not breath. She does mention that other &quot;Latin authors&quot; (unspecified) wrote that the coin was used to seal the mouth to prevent the soul from escaping." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1250" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="375" RevisionGUID="51246754-1204-4918-8dd8-aa067c25c71d" CreationDate="2015-05-03T14:54:27.647" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1251" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="376" RevisionGUID="212d2b7c-1ab6-4490-88a4-81e311c247f3" CreationDate="2015-05-03T14:54:27.647" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1252" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="377" RevisionGUID="22f285dc-3383-41d0-aa31-6211906c59cc" CreationDate="2015-05-03T15:01:52.077" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1253" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="378" RevisionGUID="e27adc68-15ed-456d-8458-1925867de327" CreationDate="2015-05-03T15:01:52.077" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1255" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="379" RevisionGUID="d561fa49-68c7-4fa1-a38c-6688c9d1b3b2" CreationDate="2015-05-03T15:10:05.810" UserId="183" Text="One of the most popular accounts of the life of [King Arthur](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Arthur) is that of [Geoffrey of Monmouth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_of_Monmouth), who writes that Arthur was killed by his nephew, [Mordred](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordred). Geoffrey's account is by no means canonical, as there are many folk stories of Arthur. However, I haven't been able to find any other accounts of Arthur's death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do other stories of King Arthur's death exist?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1256" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="379" RevisionGUID="d561fa49-68c7-4fa1-a38c-6688c9d1b3b2" CreationDate="2015-05-03T15:10:05.810" UserId="183" Text="Are there alternate versions of King Arthur's death?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1257" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="379" RevisionGUID="d561fa49-68c7-4fa1-a38c-6688c9d1b3b2" CreationDate="2015-05-03T15:10:05.810" UserId="183" Text="|arthurian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1258" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="379" RevisionGUID="a9576e1b-b7a8-4a47-af23-b23f7b8054d8" CreationDate="2015-05-03T15:15:32.933" UserId="183" Comment="added 40 characters in body; edited title; added 57 characters in body" Text="One of the most popular accounts of the life of [King Arthur](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Arthur) is that of [Geoffrey of Monmouth](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_of_Monmouth), who writes that Arthur was killed by his nephew, [Mordred](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordred). Geoffrey's account is by no means canonical, as there are many folk stories of Arthur. However, I haven't been able to find any other accounts of Arthur's death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do Arthurian scholars agree with Geoffrey of Monmouth's depiction of King Arthur's death? What are their historical (preferably written) accounts?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1259" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="379" RevisionGUID="a9576e1b-b7a8-4a47-af23-b23f7b8054d8" CreationDate="2015-05-03T15:15:32.933" UserId="183" Comment="added 40 characters in body; edited title; added 57 characters in body" Text="Do Arthurian scholars agree with Geoffrey of Monmouth's depiction of King Arthur's death?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1260" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="380" RevisionGUID="e7e5477b-f7c2-4154-ad14-089575d7d535" CreationDate="2015-05-03T15:24:47.217" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1261" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="381" RevisionGUID="66ebfead-fb2e-46c0-9243-c3022eb34f8c" CreationDate="2015-05-03T15:24:47.217" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1262" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="376" RevisionGUID="dc5cd426-9344-44fb-a45c-b7ac984bcff7" CreationDate="2015-05-03T16:14:03.267" UserId="53" Comment="added 151 characters in body" Text="For questions relating to the mythology of Sumeria.  An area between the Euphrates and Tigris rivers, later known as Mesopotamia by the Ancient Greeks." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1263" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="376" RevisionGUID="dc5cd426-9344-44fb-a45c-b7ac984bcff7" CreationDate="2015-05-03T16:14:03.267" Comment="Proposed by 53 approved by 79, 108 edit id of 85" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1264" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="381" RevisionGUID="689e6412-3525-42f0-a0f6-1dad43f2f15e" CreationDate="2015-05-03T16:14:06.203" UserId="183" Comment="added 137 characters in body" Text="For questions about elements of mythology shared between the Greeks and Romans, as opposed to those used by only one of the two cultures." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1265" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="381" RevisionGUID="689e6412-3525-42f0-a0f6-1dad43f2f15e" CreationDate="2015-05-03T16:14:06.203" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 79, 108 edit id of 87" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1267" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="372" RevisionGUID="d6a8332b-2348-4d93-82a9-5ab1bc8c1ae0" CreationDate="2015-05-03T16:53:43.733" UserId="98" Comment="added 124 characters in body" Text="According to Norse Mythology, Ragnarök is a series of future events that means great disasters for the world and the end of many important and powerful gods:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Norse mythology, Ragnarök is a series of future events, including a great battle foretold to ultimately result in the death of a number of major figures (including the gods Odin, Thor, Týr, Freyr, Heimdallr, and Loki), the occurrence of various natural disasters, and the subsequent submersion of the world in water. Afterward, the world will resurface anew and fertile, the surviving and returning gods will meet, and the world will be repopulated by two human survivors . Ragnarök is an important event in the Norse canon, and has been the subject of scholarly discourse and theory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After Ragnarök, it is said that the world will be repopulated with two human survivors. How will these two human survivors be chosen? Will they be randomly chosen or selected by the remaining gods who didn't die during Ragnarök?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source of quote: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/226/how-are-future-apolcalyptic-events-detailed-so-greatly" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1268" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="382" RevisionGUID="95130941-fcfa-4193-a299-b91288a0adb7" CreationDate="2015-05-03T17:01:52.763" UserId="183" Text="The two human survivors are [Lif and Lifthrasir](http://norse-mythology.org/lif-lifthrasir/). They live through Ragnarök by [hiding in Yggdrasil](http://www.viking-mythology.com/ragnarok.php) before the great battles, supposedly [in Hoddmimir's wood](http://www.timelessmyths.com/norse/ragnarok.html#NewAge). Apparently, [Vafthrudnir told this to Odin](http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/norse-mythology.php?deity=RAGNAROK) in a prophecy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They are mentioned in verse 45 of [*Vafþrúðnismál*](http://www.heimskringla.no/wiki/Vaf%C3%BEr%C3%BA%C3%B0nism%C3%A1l):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Líf ok Lifþrasir,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;br&gt;en þau leynask munu&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;br&gt;í holti Hoddmímis;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;br&gt;morgindöggvar&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;br&gt;þau sér at mat hafa,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; en þaðan af aldir alask.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't know Icelandic, and Google Translate (never the best!) gives me&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Life and Lifþrasir, but they will leynask hill Hoddmímis; morgindöggvar þau at a food has, but from centuries of feast&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I can't find anything better. This, however, is the source of the prophecy to Odin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems that the two humans were, though prophesied, simply random people who happened to find a safe (and sacred) place to hide." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1269" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="226" RevisionGUID="65b0b274-17e0-42fb-bb88-ca3ff7551d4f" CreationDate="2015-05-03T17:08:49.983" UserId="79" Comment="added 101 characters in body" Text="For example, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From Wikipedia article on [Ragnarök](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar%C3%B6k) (emphasis mine):&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In Norse mythology, Ragnarök is a series of **future events**, including a great battle foretold to ultimately result in the death of a number of major figures (including the gods Odin, Thor, Týr, Freyr, Heimdallr, and Loki), the occurrence of various natural disasters, and the subsequent submersion of the world in water. Afterward, the world&#xD;&#xA;will resurface anew and fertile, the surviving and returning gods will meet, and the&#xD;&#xA;world will be repopulated by two human survivors . Ragnarök is an important event in the Norse canon, and has been the subject of scholarly discourse and theory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not wanting to make the question broad, I'm putting it in scope of the Norse mythology and it becomes: **If the events of Ragnarok are set in the future, how is it that it is detailed so greatly at present?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1270" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="372" RevisionGUID="cd892c12-4c8a-4722-a3d3-95761aca0c1d" CreationDate="2015-05-03T17:18:43.480" UserId="79" Comment="deleted 21 characters in body" Text="According to Norse Mythology, Ragnarök is a series of future events that means great disasters for the world and the end of many important and powerful gods:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Norse mythology, Ragnarök is a series of future events, including a great battle foretold to ultimately result in the death of a number of major figures (including the gods Odin, Thor, Týr, Freyr, Heimdallr, and Loki), the occurrence of various natural disasters, and the subsequent submersion of the world in water. Afterward, the world will resurface anew and fertile, the surviving and returning gods will meet, and the world will be repopulated by two human survivors . Ragnarök is an important event in the Norse canon, and has been the subject of scholarly discourse and theory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;source: Wikipedia article on [Ragnarök](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar%C3%B6k)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After Ragnarök, it is said that the world will be repopulated with two human survivors. How will these two human survivors be chosen? Will they be randomly chosen or selected by the remaining gods who didn't die during Ragnarök?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1271" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="379" RevisionGUID="5411837a-93df-4212-9f8c-4c191fd316e9" CreationDate="2015-05-03T17:21:25.487" UserId="183" Comment="Slight clarification; I'm interested in original accounts." Text="One of the most popular accounts of the life of [King Arthur](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Arthur) is that of [Geoffrey of Monmouth](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_of_Monmouth), who writes that Arthur was killed by his nephew, [Mordred](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordred). Geoffrey's account is by no means canonical, as there are many folk stories of Arthur. However, I haven't been able to find any other accounts of Arthur's death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do Arthurian scholars or other original Arthurian legends agree with Geoffrey of Monmouth's depiction of King Arthur's death? What are their historical (preferably written) accounts?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1272" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="379" RevisionGUID="5411837a-93df-4212-9f8c-4c191fd316e9" CreationDate="2015-05-03T17:21:25.487" UserId="183" Comment="Slight clarification; I'm interested in original accounts." Text="Do Arthurian scholars or other original Arthurian legends agree with Geoffrey of Monmouth's depiction of King Arthur's death?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1275" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="382" RevisionGUID="b4646276-69f5-465a-b1de-fca41aa5c1ae" CreationDate="2015-05-03T17:27:34.700" UserId="183" Comment="added 208 characters in body" Text="The two human survivors are [Lif and Lifthrasir](http://norse-mythology.org/lif-lifthrasir/). They live through Ragnarök by [hiding in Yggdrasil](http://www.viking-mythology.com/ragnarok.php) before the great battles, supposedly [in Hoddmimir's wood](http://www.timelessmyths.com/norse/ragnarok.html#NewAge). Apparently, [Vafthrudnir told this to Odin](http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/norse-mythology.php?deity=RAGNAROK) in a prophecy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They are mentioned in verse 45 of [*Vafþrúðnismál*](http://www.heimskringla.no/wiki/Vaf%C3%BEr%C3%BA%C3%B0nism%C3%A1l):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Líf ok Lifþrasir,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;br&gt;en þau leynask munu&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;br&gt;í holti Hoddmímis;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;br&gt;morgindöggvar&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;br&gt;þau sér at mat hafa,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; en þaðan af aldir alask.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't know Icelandic, but [this answer](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/131/how-is-the-hoddm%c3%admis-holt-able-to-protect-humans-from-ragnar%c3%b6k/271#271) gives me&#xD;&#xA;&gt;45. Lif and Lifthrasir&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; lie hidden&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; in the grove of Hoard-Mimir;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; the morning dews&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; they shall have as meat,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; from them generations will spring.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;source: http://www.germanicmythology.com/PoeticEdda/GRM27.html&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This verse is the source of the prophecy to Odin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems that the two humans were, though prophesied, simply random people who happened to find a safe (and sacred) place to hide." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1276" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="383" RevisionGUID="28bfa8da-c4c9-4e6c-9b00-3f5a35d5e1f4" CreationDate="2015-05-03T17:51:28.127" UserId="96" Text="The Iroquois creation myth tells of Sky people that lived in the Sky World.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From [firstpeople.us][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the beginning, the world was not as we know it now. It was a water&#xD;&#xA;&gt; world inhabited only by animals and creatures of the air who could&#xD;&#xA;&gt; survive without land.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Up above, the Sky World was quite different. Human-type beings lived&#xD;&#xA;&gt; there with infinite types of plants and animals to enjoy.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the Sky World, there was a Tree of Life that was very special to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the people of the Sky World. They knew that it grew at the entrance to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the world below and forbade anyone to tamper with the Tree. One woman&#xD;&#xA;&gt; who was soon to give birth was curious about the Tree and convinced&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her brother to uproot the Tree.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Beneath the Tree was a great hole. The woman peered from the edge into&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the hole and suddenly fell off the edge. As she was falling she&#xD;&#xA;&gt; grasped at the edge and clutched in her hand some of the earth from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Sky World. As she fell, the birds of the world below were&#xD;&#xA;&gt; disturbed and alerted to her distress. The birds responded and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gathered a great many of their kind to break her fall and cradle her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to the back of a great sea turtle. The creatures of the water believed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that she needed land to live on, so they set about to collect some for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her. They dove to the great depths of the world's oceans to gather&#xD;&#xA;&gt; earth to make her a place to live. Many of the animals tried to gather&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the earth from the ocean floor, only the muskrat was successful. With&#xD;&#xA;&gt; only a small bit of earth brought onto turtle's back from his small&#xD;&#xA;&gt; paws, Turtle Island began to grow.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Sky Woman soon gave birth to a daughter on Turtle Island. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; daughter grew fast. There were no man-beings on Turtle Island, but a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; being known as the West Wind married the daughter of Sky Woman.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Soon the daughter of Sky Woman gave birth to Twins. One was born the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; natural way, and he was called the Right-Handed Twin. The other was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; born in a way that caused the death of the mother. He was called the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Left-Handed Twin. When their mother died, their grandmother, Sky&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Woman, placed the fistful of earth that she grasped from the edge of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Sky World, and placed it on her daughter's grave. The earth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; carried special seeds from the Sky World that were nourished by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; earth over her daughter. So from the body of her daughter came the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sacred Tobacco, Strawberry and Sweetgrass. We call these Kionhekwa.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Life Givers.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Right and Left-Handed Twins were endowed with special creative&#xD;&#xA;&gt; powers. The Right-Handed Twin created gentle hills, beautiful smelling&#xD;&#xA;&gt; flowers, quiet brooks, butterflies and numerous creatures, plants and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; earth formations. His brother the Left-Handed Twin made snakes, thorns&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on rose bushes, thunder and lightning and other more disturbing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; attributes of today's world. Together, they created man and his many&#xD;&#xA;&gt; attributes. The Right-Handed Twin believed in diplomacy and conflict&#xD;&#xA;&gt; resolution. The Left-Handed Twin believed in conflict as resolution.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They were very different, but all that they created is an integral&#xD;&#xA;&gt; part of this Earth's Creation.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Their Grandmother, Sky Woman, now came to the end of her life. When&#xD;&#xA;&gt; she died, the Twins fought over her body and pulled it apart, throwing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her head into the sky. As part of the Sky World, there her head&#xD;&#xA;&gt; remained to shine upon the world as Grandmother Moon. The Twins could&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not live together without fighting. They agreed to dwell in different&#xD;&#xA;&gt; realms of the earth. The Right-Handed Twin continued to live in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; daylight and the Left-Handed Twin became a dweller of the night. Both&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of them continue their special duties to their Mother the Earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, this doesn't tell us where the Sky People came from.  Is there another legend or story that tells us this?&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.firstpeople.us/FP-Html-Legends/TheCreationStory-Iroquois.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1277" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="383" RevisionGUID="28bfa8da-c4c9-4e6c-9b00-3f5a35d5e1f4" CreationDate="2015-05-03T17:51:28.127" UserId="96" Text="Does Iroquois legend tell where the Sky People came from?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1278" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="383" RevisionGUID="28bfa8da-c4c9-4e6c-9b00-3f5a35d5e1f4" CreationDate="2015-05-03T17:51:28.127" UserId="96" Text="|creation|native-american|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1279" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="383" RevisionGUID="ab4a7920-5d4b-48ce-947e-51366e78519b" CreationDate="2015-05-03T18:02:15.313" UserId="96" Comment="added 184 characters in body" Text="The Iroquois creation myth tells of Sky people that lived in the Sky World.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From [firstpeople.us][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the beginning, the world was not as we know it now. It was a water&#xD;&#xA;&gt; world inhabited only by animals and creatures of the air who could&#xD;&#xA;&gt; survive without land.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Up above, the Sky World was quite different. Human-type beings lived&#xD;&#xA;&gt; there with infinite types of plants and animals to enjoy.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the Sky World, there was a Tree of Life that was very special to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the people of the Sky World. They knew that it grew at the entrance to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the world below and forbade anyone to tamper with the Tree. One woman&#xD;&#xA;&gt; who was soon to give birth was curious about the Tree and convinced&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her brother to uproot the Tree.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Beneath the Tree was a great hole. The woman peered from the edge into&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the hole and suddenly fell off the edge. As she was falling she&#xD;&#xA;&gt; grasped at the edge and clutched in her hand some of the earth from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Sky World. As she fell, the birds of the world below were&#xD;&#xA;&gt; disturbed and alerted to her distress. The birds responded and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gathered a great many of their kind to break her fall and cradle her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to the back of a great sea turtle. The creatures of the water believed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that she needed land to live on, so they set about to collect some for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her. They dove to the great depths of the world's oceans to gather&#xD;&#xA;&gt; earth to make her a place to live. Many of the animals tried to gather&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the earth from the ocean floor, only the muskrat was successful. With&#xD;&#xA;&gt; only a small bit of earth brought onto turtle's back from his small&#xD;&#xA;&gt; paws, Turtle Island began to grow.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Sky Woman soon gave birth to a daughter on Turtle Island. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; daughter grew fast. There were no man-beings on Turtle Island, but a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; being known as the West Wind married the daughter of Sky Woman.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Soon the daughter of Sky Woman gave birth to Twins. One was born the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; natural way, and he was called the Right-Handed Twin. The other was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; born in a way that caused the death of the mother. He was called the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Left-Handed Twin. When their mother died, their grandmother, Sky&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Woman, placed the fistful of earth that she grasped from the edge of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Sky World, and placed it on her daughter's grave. The earth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; carried special seeds from the Sky World that were nourished by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; earth over her daughter. So from the body of her daughter came the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sacred Tobacco, Strawberry and Sweetgrass. We call these Kionhekwa.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Life Givers.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Right and Left-Handed Twins were endowed with special creative&#xD;&#xA;&gt; powers. The Right-Handed Twin created gentle hills, beautiful smelling&#xD;&#xA;&gt; flowers, quiet brooks, butterflies and numerous creatures, plants and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; earth formations. His brother the Left-Handed Twin made snakes, thorns&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on rose bushes, thunder and lightning and other more disturbing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; attributes of today's world. Together, they created man and his many&#xD;&#xA;&gt; attributes. The Right-Handed Twin believed in diplomacy and conflict&#xD;&#xA;&gt; resolution. The Left-Handed Twin believed in conflict as resolution.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They were very different, but all that they created is an integral&#xD;&#xA;&gt; part of this Earth's Creation.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Their Grandmother, Sky Woman, now came to the end of her life. When&#xD;&#xA;&gt; she died, the Twins fought over her body and pulled it apart, throwing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her head into the sky. As part of the Sky World, there her head&#xD;&#xA;&gt; remained to shine upon the world as Grandmother Moon. The Twins could&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not live together without fighting. They agreed to dwell in different&#xD;&#xA;&gt; realms of the earth. The Right-Handed Twin continued to live in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; daylight and the Left-Handed Twin became a dweller of the night. Both&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of them continue their special duties to their Mother the Earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, this doesn't tell us where the Sky People came from.  Is there another legend or story that tells us this?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Note: I realize that many Native American tribes have a shared mythos, so other tribes that share this story are also fair sources for an origin of the Sky People.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.firstpeople.us/FP-Html-Legends/TheCreationStory-Iroquois.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1280" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="373" RevisionGUID="8f452e29-afa0-454d-a252-93a4c1cf89bf" CreationDate="2015-05-03T18:03:50.710" UserId="18" Comment="Elaborated." Text="To oversimplify it, **God is too powerful**. One twitch of a (metaphorical) muscle, and ***poof*** everything is gone. God created everything, the whole universe, including the dragon (devil/Satan) and demons. Furthermore, He sustains the existence of everything ([Hebrews 1:3](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+1:3&amp;version=NIV&quot;)) , so He has the upper hand in this war, to put it mildly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Throughout the Bible, it is clear that there are many, many situations where God does not directly do some work Himself, but rather delegates it to another being. For instance, the Christian church grew from [~120](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts+1%3A15&amp;version=NIV) to [3000+](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts+2%3A41&amp;version=NIV) to [2.2 billion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations#Adherent_estimates) through the efforts of human evangelism. Yes, of course God was heavily involved, but He still needed/wanted His followers to spread the Gospel ([Romans 10:13-15](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans+10%3A13-15&amp;version=NIV)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarly, angels appear almost exclusively as messengers, worshipers, and/or warriors. The devil, also known as Satan or Lucifer, used to be the best and brightest ([literally](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+14:12&amp;version=NIV)) of the angels. He and the demons especially attack Jews/Christians ([1 Peter 5:3](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Peter+5%3A8&amp;version=NIV)), and Michael and the angels fight back ([Daniel 10:12-14](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel+10:12-14&amp;version=NIV)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A rather popular misconception among Christians is that God and Satan are equals. This is entirely wrong. *Michael* and Satan/Lucifer are equals, even brothers. Furthermore, one good way to look at God is as if He was an Author and that this whole universe and all the events that happen are part of one huge, grand Story. In that sense, this struggle between angels and demons is the classic Good vs. Evil battle. If God were to step in and wipe out all the forces of Evil with a single thought, that would be Deus Ex Machina of the highest order, and make for a pretty poor Story. Really, God has *already* won the War with the death and resurrection of His Son Jesus Christ (and the demons never had a chance), but the battles continue for the souls of people, and will continue until God brings the Story to its conclusion (the first chapter anyway).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To directly answer your questions, God *does* command His side in the war, but as Commander-in-Chief and does not get directly, personally involved in the battles. Michael is essentially His second-in-command and the foremost angel of the Heavenly Host." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1282" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="372" RevisionGUID="459cc5a6-e1ab-4dcf-bd55-bb37dabdd17e" CreationDate="2015-05-03T18:39:34.103" UserId="183" Comment="Added &quot;ragnarok&quot; tag." Text="|norse|ragnarok|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1283" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="372" RevisionGUID="459cc5a6-e1ab-4dcf-bd55-bb37dabdd17e" CreationDate="2015-05-03T18:39:34.103" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 79, 108 edit id of 89" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1285" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="351" RevisionGUID="8e004ec9-116f-426a-813c-f6c2efe37703" CreationDate="2015-05-03T19:17:35.353" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 48 characters in body" Text="The Epic of Gilgamesh, a Mesopotamian epic poem." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1286" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="351" RevisionGUID="8e004ec9-116f-426a-813c-f6c2efe37703" CreationDate="2015-05-03T19:17:35.353" Comment="Proposed by 62 approved by 79, 38 edit id of 75" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1287" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="378" RevisionGUID="b9a5d01b-114a-4821-9e81-8b290159dabf" CreationDate="2015-05-03T19:17:44.883" UserId="53" Comment="added 62 characters in body" Text="Regardings myths of the creation of Earth and mankind upon it." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1288" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="378" RevisionGUID="b9a5d01b-114a-4821-9e81-8b290159dabf" CreationDate="2015-05-03T19:17:44.883" Comment="Proposed by 53 approved by 108, 38 edit id of 86" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1289" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="339" RevisionGUID="301f67db-e28d-402a-a5a7-8a20086b7f88" CreationDate="2015-05-03T19:18:05.580" UserId="108" Comment="added 49 characters in body" Text="For questions on the folklore and myths of Wales." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1290" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="339" RevisionGUID="301f67db-e28d-402a-a5a7-8a20086b7f88" CreationDate="2015-05-03T19:18:05.580" Comment="Proposed by 108 approved by 79, 38 edit id of 71" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1291" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="335" RevisionGUID="000ec759-7a34-46ba-b8a6-061d27af7164" CreationDate="2015-05-03T19:18:13.553" UserId="108" Comment="added 124 characters in body" Text="For questions on the myths and religious beliefs of the Norse people, the pre-Christian inhabitants from modern Scandinavia." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1292" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="335" RevisionGUID="000ec759-7a34-46ba-b8a6-061d27af7164" CreationDate="2015-05-03T19:18:13.553" Comment="Proposed by 108 approved by 79, 38 edit id of 68" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1293" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="333" RevisionGUID="55ca28c0-daf3-4022-b82e-07866a61afe8" CreationDate="2015-05-03T19:18:22.143" UserId="108" Comment="added 76 characters in body" Text="For questions on the myths, legends, and religious beliefs of ancient Egypt." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1294" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="333" RevisionGUID="55ca28c0-daf3-4022-b82e-07866a61afe8" CreationDate="2015-05-03T19:18:22.143" Comment="Proposed by 108 approved by 79, 38 edit id of 67" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1295" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="366" RevisionGUID="a1e0e60c-bb93-4f8a-96bd-aca5e43e2648" CreationDate="2015-05-03T19:18:29.927" UserDisplayName="user93" Comment="added 54 characters in body" Text="Use this tag for questions regarding mythical history." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1296" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="366" RevisionGUID="a1e0e60c-bb93-4f8a-96bd-aca5e43e2648" CreationDate="2015-05-03T19:18:29.927" Comment="Proposed by 93 approved by 108, 38 edit id of 80" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1297" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="331" RevisionGUID="e5a5be0d-0168-4ced-ab24-665c84c7ae9e" CreationDate="2015-05-03T19:18:34.833" UserId="108" Comment="added 261 characters in body" Text="For questions on a type of mythical creatures found in European folklore. They are generally human in appearance and capable of magic, but exact definitions and forms vary from tradition to tradition. Their names are alternative spelt fay, fae, faerie or fairy." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1298" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="331" RevisionGUID="e5a5be0d-0168-4ced-ab24-665c84c7ae9e" CreationDate="2015-05-03T19:18:34.833" Comment="Proposed by 108 approved by 79, 38 edit id of 66" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1299" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="384" RevisionGUID="d557bf55-eb86-490b-b6d7-8b9aa0fa579a" CreationDate="2015-05-03T19:20:53.920" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1300" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="385" RevisionGUID="a5a2edde-b447-438c-857c-1e87e12ba4c9" CreationDate="2015-05-03T19:20:53.920" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1301" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="368" RevisionGUID="9768bd1e-cdc4-4bd2-8c25-a691a8fec654" CreationDate="2015-05-03T19:21:07.073" UserDisplayName="user93" Comment="added 49 characters in body" Text="Use this tag for questions about factual history." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1302" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="368" RevisionGUID="9768bd1e-cdc4-4bd2-8c25-a691a8fec654" CreationDate="2015-05-03T19:21:07.073" Comment="Proposed by 93 approved by 108, 38 edit id of 81" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1303" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="337" RevisionGUID="78b2cbc0-e487-4f8b-bbe5-13366bddffae" CreationDate="2015-05-03T19:21:13.217" UserId="108" Comment="added 73 characters in body" Text="For questions on the local folklore, myths, and legends found in Britain." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1304" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="337" RevisionGUID="78b2cbc0-e487-4f8b-bbe5-13366bddffae" CreationDate="2015-05-03T19:21:13.217" Comment="Proposed by 108 approved by 79, 38 edit id of 70" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1305" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="353" RevisionGUID="4f27c4b9-9549-4227-b523-55696a0443d6" CreationDate="2015-05-03T19:21:28.060" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 39 characters in body" Text="The supreme sky god of greek mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1306" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="353" RevisionGUID="4f27c4b9-9549-4227-b523-55696a0443d6" CreationDate="2015-05-03T19:21:28.060" Comment="Proposed by 62 approved by 79, 38 edit id of 77" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1307" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="386" RevisionGUID="f1989ec1-726e-4f38-8173-680b8c82bc19" CreationDate="2015-05-03T19:23:13.893" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1308" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="387" RevisionGUID="e24a2fef-a697-487b-9d16-f6de892db81d" CreationDate="2015-05-03T19:23:13.893" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1309" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="388" RevisionGUID="280a9b40-012c-409d-8a3a-0a19ce481a5a" CreationDate="2015-05-03T19:24:41.247" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1310" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="389" RevisionGUID="540491f0-2a60-4dae-9432-7e9cffa19f9b" CreationDate="2015-05-03T19:24:41.247" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1312" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="390" RevisionGUID="9a69da6b-e988-48bd-a5df-c34ac5dcdc6a" CreationDate="2015-05-03T19:30:14.960" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1313" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="391" RevisionGUID="28c13b61-986a-4e23-8183-6b3ddaf02efe" CreationDate="2015-05-03T19:30:14.960" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1314" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="392" RevisionGUID="865d0ee5-f273-413a-b1a1-ec551215fa44" CreationDate="2015-05-03T19:32:48.037" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1315" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="393" RevisionGUID="be763d86-8931-43ff-8f3a-6e2a57716132" CreationDate="2015-05-03T19:32:48.037" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1316" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="387" RevisionGUID="015937bd-d3fa-4f71-850f-bd5c4ab8e8e3" CreationDate="2015-05-03T20:25:37.683" UserId="108" Comment="added 225 characters in body" Text="For questions on Judeo-Christian beliefs shared by both Judaism and Christianity. Questions that only concerns one faith should be tagged with [judaism] or [christianity]. See also [abrahamic-religions], which includes Islam." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1317" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="387" RevisionGUID="015937bd-d3fa-4f71-850f-bd5c4ab8e8e3" CreationDate="2015-05-03T20:25:37.683" Comment="Proposed by 108 approved by 79, 38 edit id of 91" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1318" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="391" RevisionGUID="35620157-4670-44cc-8e13-4b68a182bd33" CreationDate="2015-05-03T20:25:55.943" UserId="108" Comment="added 79 characters in body" Text="For questions on the traditional beliefs and stories of a community or culture." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1319" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="391" RevisionGUID="35620157-4670-44cc-8e13-4b68a182bd33" CreationDate="2015-05-03T20:25:55.943" Comment="Proposed by 108 approved by 79, 38 edit id of 93" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1320" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="389" RevisionGUID="74a9a18a-ced5-4c3d-9b6b-bf716d51d634" CreationDate="2015-05-03T20:26:02.647" UserId="108" Comment="added 110 characters in body" Text="For questions on the mythical realm of the dead, typically far underground, where the deceased go after death." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1321" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="389" RevisionGUID="74a9a18a-ced5-4c3d-9b6b-bf716d51d634" CreationDate="2015-05-03T20:26:02.647" Comment="Proposed by 108 approved by 79, 38 edit id of 92" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1322" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="394" RevisionGUID="7b27c2e2-b418-478b-beef-271ad3f164ec" CreationDate="2015-05-03T20:30:50.503" UserId="108" Text="It *actually* was a gradual process. It was primarily driven by his personal popularity in a society where ancestor worship has long been an integral element. Moreso than his fame as a general, his personality traits (loyalty, bravery, honesty) appealed to traditional Chinese sensibilities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In addition to low level reverance as a hero, the deification of [Guan Yu](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guan_Yu) really began when [Emperor Suzhong](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Suzong_of_Tang) instituted the worship of historic generals during the [Tang Dynasty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_dynasty). Note that when the dedications first began in A.D. 760, **Guan Yu was *not* even included**. The primary god Suzhong's Martial Temple was [Jiang Jiya](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiang_Ziya), with ten other famed generals of antiquity under [Zhang Liang](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang_Liang_(Western_Han)) as secondary deities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A few years later, the Martial Temple was expanded by [Emperor Dezong](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Dezong_of_Tang) with staggering 64 addition. Guan Yu was one of the extras inducted into official state worship at this juncture. His positioning was very much **in the middle of the pack**. He was placed below his contemporary [Zhang Liao](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang_Liao) of Wei but above [Zhou Yu](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhou_Yu) of Wu. The Martial Temple retained this basic structure into the [Song Dynasty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_dynasty).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, it was during the Song Dynasty that Guan Yu begun surging in popularity. He received his first kingly title under [Emperor Huizong](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Huizong_of_Song) in 1107. By the 13th century, the bureaucrat-author Hao Jing writes that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 其英靈義烈遍天下，故所在廟祀，福善禍惡，神威赫然，人咸畏而敬之，而燕、趙、荊、楚爲尤篤。郡國州縣、鄉邑間井皆有廟。&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *(rough translation)* His righteousness and strength of character is known throughout the world. His temple brings fortune and wards off disaster, and people respect his might. Yan, Zhao, Jin and Chu are particularly pious. Every county, province, city and village has his temples.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is around this point that Guan Yu became less revered hero, and more full blown deity. When the [Ming Dynasty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ming_dynasty) rolls around, he had eclipsed other targets of worship. Under [Wanli Emperor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanli_Emperor), Guan Yu was declared `協天護國忠義大帝` (*Loyal and Righteous Great Emperor of National Defence*) in 1578, followed by the even more extravagant `三界伏魔大帝神威遠鎮天尊關聖帝君` (*Demon-Suppressing Divinely Mighty Heavenly Sovereign Saint-Emperor of Three Realms*) in 1613. The subsequent [Qing Dynasty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qing_dynasty) continued his worship, though they gave him their own titles.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1324" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="394" RevisionGUID="8f679486-f728-4491-a090-80b445acf49d" CreationDate="2015-05-03T20:37:15.120" UserId="108" Comment="added 257 characters in body" Text="It *actually* was a gradual process. It was primarily driven by his personal popularity in a society where ancestor worship has long been an integral element. Moreso than his fame as a general, his personality traits (loyalty, bravery, honesty) appealed to traditional Chinese sensibilities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In addition to low level reverance as a hero, the deification of [Guan Yu](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guan_Yu) really began when [Emperor Suzhong](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Suzong_of_Tang) instituted the worship of historic generals during the [Tang Dynasty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_dynasty). Note that when the dedications first began in A.D. 760, **Guan Yu was *not* even included**. The primary god Suzhong's Martial Temple was [Jiang Jiya](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiang_Ziya), with ten other famed generals of antiquity under [Zhang Liang](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang_Liang_(Western_Han)) as secondary deities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A few years later, the Martial Temple was expanded by [Emperor Dezong](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Dezong_of_Tang) with staggering 64 addition. Guan Yu was one of the extras inducted into official state worship at this juncture. His positioning was very much **in the middle of the pack**. He was placed below his contemporary [Zhang Liao](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang_Liao) of Wei but above [Zhou Yu](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhou_Yu) of Wu. The Martial Temple retained this basic structure into the [Song Dynasty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_dynasty).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, it was during the Song Dynasty that Guan Yu begun surging in popularity. He received his first kingly title under [Emperor Huizong](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Huizong_of_Song) in 1107. By the 13th century, the bureaucrat-author Hao Jing wrote that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 其英靈義烈遍天下，故所在廟祀，福善禍惡，神威赫然，人咸畏而敬之，而燕、趙、荊、楚爲尤篤。郡國州縣、鄉邑間井皆有廟。&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *(rough translation)* His righteousness and strength of character is known throughout the world. His temple brings fortune and wards off disaster, and people respect his might. Yan, Zhao, Jin and Chu are particularly pious. Every county, province, city and village has his temples.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Around this point Guan Yu was becoming less revered hero, and more full blown deity. When the [Ming Dynasty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ming_dynasty) rolled around in the 14th centuries, he had eclipsed other generals for worship. The Ming Empire had no Martial Temple, but the [Hongwu Emperor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hongwu_Emperor) specifically included Guan Yu in official veneration at Nanking.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Under [Wanli Emperor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanli_Emperor), Guan Yu was declared `協天護國忠義大帝` (*Loyal and Righteous Great Emperor of National Defence*) in 1578, followed by the even more extravagant `三界伏魔大帝神威遠鎮天尊關聖帝君` (*Demon-Suppressing Divinely Mighty Heavenly Sovereign Saint-Emperor of Three Realms*) in 1613. These titles reflect how Guan Yu had become one of the most important deities worshiped in China by this stage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The subsequent [Qing Dynasty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qing_dynasty) continued his worship, though they gave him their own titles.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1325" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="395" RevisionGUID="ae60543e-6856-4124-be85-61a117a1ed94" CreationDate="2015-05-03T21:33:24.927" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1326" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="396" RevisionGUID="a204d7a7-6a71-4dbb-8d59-59f65d8ad9cc" CreationDate="2015-05-03T21:33:24.927" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1327" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="397" RevisionGUID="d4dcf977-d4d3-4cdd-931f-637e70bbac33" CreationDate="2015-05-03T21:34:08.067" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1328" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="398" RevisionGUID="be8b6e69-f6ba-482e-89d4-5b2b0fbf4ed3" CreationDate="2015-05-03T21:34:08.067" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1330" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="326" RevisionGUID="a3a9ae38-2ab5-4a2a-b3c8-2de73f5e3637" CreationDate="2015-05-03T22:04:27.050" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|zeus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1331" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="398" RevisionGUID="85e02f93-0e07-43be-8953-59f41cbed508" CreationDate="2015-05-03T22:15:11.917" UserId="183" Comment="added 71 characters in body" Text="For questions about beings with supreme power over a world or universe." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1332" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="398" RevisionGUID="85e02f93-0e07-43be-8953-59f41cbed508" CreationDate="2015-05-03T22:15:11.917" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 57, 38 edit id of 96" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1333" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="396" RevisionGUID="ec25131d-1eb4-47e4-9c43-090defdbc075" CreationDate="2015-05-03T22:15:19.980" UserId="183" Comment="added 75 characters in body" Text="For questions about the mythology behind the creation of a being or object." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1334" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="396" RevisionGUID="ec25131d-1eb4-47e4-9c43-090defdbc075" CreationDate="2015-05-03T22:15:19.980" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 57, 38 edit id of 95" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1335" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="399" RevisionGUID="18e78e8e-3a81-45f9-89b1-1bb6b14298d8" CreationDate="2015-05-03T22:24:25.097" UserId="26" Text="**TL;DR:** They do indeed! The details vary, but certainly after Geoffrey of Monmouth, it's generally agreed that Mordred was responsible for Arthur's downfall - Arthur killed Mordred, but was mortally wounded in the process.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**c. 1136:** [The original account][1] in Geoffrey of Monmouth's *Historia Regum Brittaniae*, the generally accepted first appearance of Arthur, in which he refers to Mordred as Modred, says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [In Cornwall] Modred, as he was the boldest of men, and always the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; quickest at making an attack, immediately placed his troops in order,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; resolving either to conquer or to die, rather than continue his flight&#xD;&#xA;&gt; any longer. [...] It would be both grievous and tedious to relate the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; slaughter, the cruel havoc, and the excess of fury that was to be seen&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on both sides. In this manner they spent a good part of the day, till&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Arthur at last made a push with his company, consisting of six&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thousand six hundred and sixty-six men, against that in which he knew&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Modred was; and having opened a way with their swords, they pierced&#xD;&#xA;&gt; quite through it, and made a grievous slaughter. For in this assault&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fell the wicked traitor himself, and many thousands with him. [...]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And even the renowned king Arthur himself was mortally wounded; and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; being carried thence to the isle of Avallon to be cured of his wounds,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he gave up the crown of Britain to his kinsman Constantine, the son of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cador, duke of Cornwall, in the five hundred and forty-second year of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; our Lord's incarnation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**c. 1155:** Wace's *[Roman de Brut][2]* (translation by Eugene Mason) says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Arthur was sick with wrath that he was not avenged of Mordred. He had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; neither peace nor rest whilst the traitor abode in his land. Arthur&#xD;&#xA;&gt; learned of Mordred’s strength in Cornwall, and this was grievous to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him. [...] Arthur sent after his men to the very Humber. He gathered&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to himself so mighty a host that it was as the sand for multitude.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; With this he sought Mordred where he knew he could be found. He&#xD;&#xA;&gt; purposed to slay and make an end of the traitor and his perjury alike.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mordred had no desire to shrink from battle. He preferred to stake all&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on the cast, yea, though the throw meant death—rather than be harried&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from place to place. The battle was arrayed on the Camel, over against&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the entrance to Cornwall. [...] There, too, was Mordred slain in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; press, together with the greater part of his folk; and in the selfsame&#xD;&#xA;&gt; day were destroyed the flower of Arthur’s host, the best and hardiest&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of his men. So the chronicle speaks sooth, Arthur himself was wounded&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in his body to the death. He caused him to be borne to Avalon for the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; searching of his hurts. [...] Arthur bade that he should be carried to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Avalon in this hope in the year 642 of the Incarnation. The sorer&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sorrow that he was a childless man. To Constantine, Cador’s son, Earl&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Cornwall, and his near kin, Arthur committed the realm, commanding&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him to hold it as king until he returned to his own. The earl took the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; land to his keeping. He held it as bidden, but nevertheless Arthur&#xD;&#xA;&gt; came never again.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**c. 1400:** In the *[Alliterative Morte Arthure][4]* (because who needs prose when you can have it in stanzas?!):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He hit Mordred amid the breste&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And out at the backe bone him bore;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; There hath Mordred his life lost,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; That speche spake he never more;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then keenly up his arm he cast&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And gave Arthur a wounde sore,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Into the hede through the helm and crest,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; That three times he swooned there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**1485:** Thomas Mallory, in his famous *[Le Morte d'Arthur][3]* (Helen Cooper, Oxford World Classics version), in Book VIII: The Death of Arthur, says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And when Sir Mordred saw King Arthur, he ran unto him with his sword&#xD;&#xA;&gt; drawn in his hand; and there King Arthur smote Sir Mordred under the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shield with a foin of his spear, throughout the body, more than a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fathom. And when Sir Mordred felt that he had his death’s wound, he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thrust himself with the might that he had up to the bur* of King&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Arthur’s spear; and right so he smote his father, King Arthur, with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his sword holding in both his hands, upon the side of the head, that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the sword pierced the helmet and the tay* of the brain. And there-with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mordred dashed down stark dead to the earth. And noble King Arthur&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fell in a swoon to the earth, and there he swooned oftentimes.[...]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ‘Comfort thyself,’ said the King, ‘and do as well as thou mayest, for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in me is no trust for to trust in. For I will into the vale of Avilion&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to heal me of my grievous wound; and if thou hear never more of me,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; pray for my soul.’&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/text/geoffrey-of-monmouth-arthurian-passages-from-the-history-of-the-kings-of-britain&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/wace_mason.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Morte_d%27Arthur#Book_VIII:_.E2.80.9CThe_Death_of_Arthur.E2.80.9D_.28Caxton_XX.E2.80.93XXI.29&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://d.lib.rochester.edu/teams/text/benson-and-foster-king-arthurs-death-stanzaic-morte-arthur-part-iii" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1336" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="394" RevisionGUID="4df93bc3-b223-4ce5-abe3-9b3dc88da960" CreationDate="2015-05-03T22:26:37.550" UserId="108" Comment="added 53 characters in body" Text="It *actually* was a gradual process. It was primarily driven by his personal popularity in a society where ancestor worship has long been an integral element. Moreso than his fame as a general, his personality traits (loyalty, bravery, honesty) appealed to traditional Chinese sensibilities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In addition to low level reverance as a hero, the deification of [Guan Yu](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guan_Yu) really began when [Emperor Suzhong](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Suzong_of_Tang) instituted the worship of historic generals during the [Tang Dynasty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_dynasty). Note that when the dedications first began in A.D. 760, **Guan Yu was *not* even included**. The primary god Suzhong's Martial Temple was [Jiang Jiya](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiang_Ziya), with ten other famed generals of antiquity under [Zhang Liang](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang_Liang_(Western_Han)) as secondary deities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A few years later, the Martial Temple was expanded by [Emperor Dezong](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Dezong_of_Tang) with staggering 64 addition. Guan Yu was one of the extras inducted into official state worship at this juncture. His positioning was very much **in the middle of the pack**. He was placed below his contemporary [Zhang Liao](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang_Liao) of Wei but above [Zhou Yu](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhou_Yu) of Wu. The Martial Temple retained this basic structure into the [Song Dynasty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_dynasty).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, it was during the Song Dynasty that Guan Yu begun surging in popularity. He received his first kingly title under [Emperor Huizong](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Huizong_of_Song) in 1107. By the 13th century, the bureaucrat-author Hao Jing wrote that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 其英靈義烈遍天下，故所在廟祀，福善禍惡，神威赫然，人咸畏而敬之，而燕、趙、荊、楚爲尤篤。郡國州縣、鄉邑間井皆有廟。&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *(rough translation)* His righteousness and strength of character is known throughout the world. His temple brings fortune and wards off disaster, and people respect his might. Yan, Zhao, Jin and Chu are particularly pious. Every county, province, city and village has his temples.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Around this point Guan Yu was becoming less revered hero, and more full blown deity. When the [Ming Dynasty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ming_dynasty) rolled around in the 14th centuries, he had eclipsed other generals for worship. The Ming Empire had no Martial Temple, but the [Hongwu Emperor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hongwu_Emperor) specifically included Guan Yu in official veneration at Nanking.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Under [Wanli Emperor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanli_Emperor), Guan Yu was declared `協天護國忠義大帝` (*Loyal and Righteous Great Emperor of National Defence*) in 1578, followed by the even more extravagant `三界伏魔大帝神威遠鎮天尊關聖帝君` (*Demon-Suppressing Divinely Mighty Heavenly Sovereign Saint-Emperor of Three Realms*) in 1613. These titles reflect how Guan Yu had become one of the most important deities worshiped in China by this stage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The subsequent [Qing Dynasty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qing_dynasty) continued his worship, though they gave him their own titles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For references, see - 蔡东洲, 文廷海. 关羽崇拜硏究. 巴蜀书社, 2001." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1337" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="400" RevisionGUID="495f8a2c-5d26-44a8-b4d1-a54743a1077b" CreationDate="2015-05-03T22:29:51.117" UserId="57" Text="The [Wikipedia article on Zeus][1] tells us (emphasis mine):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Although etymology indicates that Zeus was originally a sky god, **many Greek cities honored a local Zeus who lived underground**. Athenians and Sicilians honored Zeus Meilichios (&quot;kindly&quot; or &quot;honeyed&quot;) while **other cities had Zeus Chthonios (&quot;earthy&quot;), Zeus Katachthonios (&quot;under-the-earth&quot;)** and Zeus Plousios (&quot;wealth-bringing&quot;). These deities might be represented as snakes or in human form in visual art, or, for emphasis as both together in one image. They also received offerings of black animal victims sacrificed into sunken pits, as did chthonic deities like Persephone and Demeter, and also the heroes at their tombs. Olympian gods, by contrast, usually received white victims sacrificed upon raised altars.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which cities had a Zeus Chthonios or a Zeus Katachthonios cult? Did these cults consider Zeus a sky god with chthonic properties, or a completely chthonic deity? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus#Additional_cults_of_Zeus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1338" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="400" RevisionGUID="495f8a2c-5d26-44a8-b4d1-a54743a1077b" CreationDate="2015-05-03T22:29:51.117" UserId="57" Text="Which cities had chthonic Zeus cults?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1339" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="400" RevisionGUID="495f8a2c-5d26-44a8-b4d1-a54743a1077b" CreationDate="2015-05-03T22:29:51.117" UserId="57" Text="|greek|zeus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1340" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="399" RevisionGUID="466a0d6d-92bf-4333-9cc5-dd970a7b0e09" CreationDate="2015-05-03T22:52:38.520" UserId="26" Comment="added some context to a couple of the stories" Text="**TL;DR:** They do indeed! The details vary, but certainly after Geoffrey of Monmouth, it's generally agreed that Mordred was responsible for Arthur's downfall - Arthur killed Mordred, but was mortally wounded in the process.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**c. 1136:** [The original account][1] in Geoffrey of Monmouth's *Historia Regum Brittaniae*, the generally accepted first appearance of Arthur, in which he refers to Mordred as Modred, says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [In Cornwall] Modred, as he was the boldest of men, and always the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; quickest at making an attack, immediately placed his troops in order,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; resolving either to conquer or to die, rather than continue his flight&#xD;&#xA;&gt; any longer. [...] It would be both grievous and tedious to relate the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; slaughter, the cruel havoc, and the excess of fury that was to be seen&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on both sides. In this manner they spent a good part of the day, till&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Arthur at last made a push with his company, consisting of six&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thousand six hundred and sixty-six men, against that in which he knew&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Modred was; and having opened a way with their swords, they pierced&#xD;&#xA;&gt; quite through it, and made a grievous slaughter. For in this assault&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fell the wicked traitor himself, and many thousands with him. [...]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And even the renowned king Arthur himself was mortally wounded; and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; being carried thence to the isle of Avallon to be cured of his wounds,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he gave up the crown of Britain to his kinsman Constantine, the son of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cador, duke of Cornwall, in the five hundred and forty-second year of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; our Lord's incarnation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**c. 1155:** Wace's *[Roman de Brut][2]* (translation by Eugene Mason) says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Arthur was sick with wrath that he was not avenged of Mordred. He had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; neither peace nor rest whilst the traitor abode in his land. Arthur&#xD;&#xA;&gt; learned of Mordred’s strength in Cornwall, and this was grievous to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him. [...] Arthur sent after his men to the very Humber. He gathered&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to himself so mighty a host that it was as the sand for multitude.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; With this he sought Mordred where he knew he could be found. He&#xD;&#xA;&gt; purposed to slay and make an end of the traitor and his perjury alike.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mordred had no desire to shrink from battle. He preferred to stake all&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on the cast, yea, though the throw meant death—rather than be harried&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from place to place. The battle was arrayed on the Camel, over against&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the entrance to Cornwall. [...] There, too, was Mordred slain in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; press, together with the greater part of his folk; and in the selfsame&#xD;&#xA;&gt; day were destroyed the flower of Arthur’s host, the best and hardiest&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of his men. So the chronicle speaks sooth, Arthur himself was wounded&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in his body to the death. He caused him to be borne to Avalon for the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; searching of his hurts. [...] Arthur bade that he should be carried to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Avalon in this hope in the year 642 of the Incarnation. The sorer&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sorrow that he was a childless man. To Constantine, Cador’s son, Earl&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Cornwall, and his near kin, Arthur committed the realm, commanding&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him to hold it as king until he returned to his own. The earl took the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; land to his keeping. He held it as bidden, but nevertheless Arthur&#xD;&#xA;&gt; came never again.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**c. 1400:** In the *[Alliterative Morte Arthure][4]* (because who needs prose when you can have it in stanzas?):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He hit Mordred amid the breste&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And out at the backe bone him bore;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; There hath Mordred his life lost,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; That speche spake he never more;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then keenly up his arm he cast&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And gave Arthur a wounde sore,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Into the hede through the helm and crest,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; That three times he swooned there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Wider context in *Alliterative Morte Arthure*:** I've found references stating that Mordred attached Arthur in disguise in this version, but that Arthur recognised him because he was using Arthur's other sword (not Excalibur), Clarent. However, I need to read the orignal text more carefully to verify this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**1485:** Thomas Mallory, in his famous *[Le Morte d'Arthur][3]* (Helen Cooper, Oxford World Classics version), in Book VIII: The Death of Arthur, says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And when Sir Mordred saw King Arthur, he ran unto him with his sword&#xD;&#xA;&gt; drawn in his hand; and there King Arthur smote Sir Mordred under the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shield with a foin of his spear, throughout the body, more than a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fathom. And when Sir Mordred felt that he had his death’s wound, he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thrust himself with the might that he had up to the bur* of King&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Arthur’s spear; and right so he smote his father, King Arthur, with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his sword holding in both his hands, upon the side of the head, that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the sword pierced the helmet and the tay* of the brain. And there-with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mordred dashed down stark dead to the earth. And noble King Arthur&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fell in a swoon to the earth, and there he swooned oftentimes.[...]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ‘Comfort thyself,’ said the King, ‘and do as well as thou mayest, for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in me is no trust for to trust in. For I will into the vale of Avilion&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to heal me of my grievous wound; and if thou hear never more of me,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; pray for my soul.’&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Wider context in *Le Morte d'Arthur*:** Sir Gawain has been slain in a recent battle with Mordred's forces. Later, he comes to Arthur in a dream and warns him not to battle with Mordred. Arthur asks for a truce, and the two armies meet to discuss this, but after a snake appears, a knight draws a sword to kill it. This is taken as a symbol of aggression, and the &quot;final battle&quot; starts. After Arthur is mortally wounded, he gives his sword, Excalibur, to Sir Bedivere to throw in a lake. After Sir Bedivere finally complies, a hand rises from the water to catch the sword.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/text/geoffrey-of-monmouth-arthurian-passages-from-the-history-of-the-kings-of-britain&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/wace_mason.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Morte_d%27Arthur#Book_VIII:_.E2.80.9CThe_Death_of_Arthur.E2.80.9D_.28Caxton_XX.E2.80.93XXI.29&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://d.lib.rochester.edu/teams/text/benson-and-foster-king-arthurs-death-stanzaic-morte-arthur-part-iii" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1341" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="401" RevisionGUID="e60b216a-ce3d-4633-a7da-a21c5f01329a" CreationDate="2015-05-03T23:06:55.863" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1342" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="402" RevisionGUID="209cf160-a087-411a-bd08-da90e8198d37" CreationDate="2015-05-03T23:06:55.863" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1343" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="403" RevisionGUID="41f0aee5-3025-4f2b-8cd7-7f7b6a5e5fbe" CreationDate="2015-05-03T23:08:39.890" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1344" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="404" RevisionGUID="610ac6ad-8df4-4692-bb25-9c887aac2571" CreationDate="2015-05-03T23:08:39.890" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1345" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="405" RevisionGUID="0ac7ed2a-c3aa-4502-8ee1-bc5bbf8ba626" CreationDate="2015-05-03T23:09:47.623" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1346" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="406" RevisionGUID="7034c3c6-61c0-4642-a1c5-56a94d9bf0e7" CreationDate="2015-05-03T23:09:47.623" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1347" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="407" RevisionGUID="e84663ab-ac25-48ce-b7d0-99c9c663ce77" CreationDate="2015-05-03T23:10:59.427" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1348" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="408" RevisionGUID="ccb4dd4c-c3c4-4412-8c42-08663e89b243" CreationDate="2015-05-03T23:10:59.427" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1349" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="409" RevisionGUID="0df75386-6320-4ce5-bcf5-15000574b546" CreationDate="2015-05-03T23:11:44.657" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1350" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="410" RevisionGUID="f0d5afff-dcb0-4784-a9ed-02f347ebdb01" CreationDate="2015-05-03T23:11:44.657" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1353" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="404" RevisionGUID="cda3726d-1987-4d61-bff2-7e4df6ff2dfa" CreationDate="2015-05-03T23:29:42.043" UserId="183" Comment="added 113 characters in body" Text="For questions about Hercules, an ancient Greek hero and the son of Zeus, known for completing a series of labors." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1354" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="404" RevisionGUID="cda3726d-1987-4d61-bff2-7e4df6ff2dfa" CreationDate="2015-05-03T23:29:42.043" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 38, 108 edit id of 98" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1355" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="402" RevisionGUID="9dbaf412-3443-49d9-9515-862806b4a709" CreationDate="2015-05-03T23:29:44.913" UserId="183" Comment="added 84 characters in body" Text="For questions about Daedalus, an ancient Greek inventor, and his various inventions." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1356" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="402" RevisionGUID="9dbaf412-3443-49d9-9515-862806b4a709" CreationDate="2015-05-03T23:29:44.913" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 38, 108 edit id of 97" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1359" PostHistoryTypeId="12" PostId="394" RevisionGUID="c3fc05b3-53d2-4e73-a9dc-c1ce1dbd3e1d" CreationDate="2015-05-03T23:42:34.763" UserId="108" Comment="via Vote" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:108,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Semaphore&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="1361" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="411" RevisionGUID="08818df2-df10-4ef7-a4c3-24c0f4c6fe15" CreationDate="2015-05-03T23:53:00.360" UserId="11" Text="I always thought that [Artemis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemis) was the Goddess of the Moon (and Hunting, stags, etc.)... until I thought about how there's [Helios/Apollo](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/129/what-exactly-did-apollo-do-with-respect-to-the-sun) which caused me to learn about [Selene](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selene). But further research revealed yet another Moon goddess - [Hecate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecate), who is associated with the moon, and is Selene's grandmother. Still further research revealed [Phoebe](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebe_(mythology)), whose Wikipedia article is pretty sparse and is the grandmother of Selene.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did the goddess who had domain of the moon change over time? Did they all sort of do it together?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1362" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="411" RevisionGUID="08818df2-df10-4ef7-a4c3-24c0f4c6fe15" CreationDate="2015-05-03T23:53:00.360" UserId="11" Text="What is the difference between Hecate, Selene, Artemis, and Phoebe?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1363" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="411" RevisionGUID="08818df2-df10-4ef7-a4c3-24c0f4c6fe15" CreationDate="2015-05-03T23:53:00.360" UserId="11" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1364" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="412" RevisionGUID="2b0f4bbe-6f1b-4d78-86ec-7f0d379d389c" CreationDate="2015-05-04T00:19:46.270" UserId="43" Text="After Perseus killed Medusa, he mounted her head on a shield and gifted it to Athena, who used the shield in battle to turn her enemies into stone. How did she keep herself from being turned into stone by looking at the shield?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1365" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="412" RevisionGUID="2b0f4bbe-6f1b-4d78-86ec-7f0d379d389c" CreationDate="2015-05-04T00:19:46.270" UserId="43" Text="How did Athena keep from being turned into stone by her shield?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1366" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="412" RevisionGUID="2b0f4bbe-6f1b-4d78-86ec-7f0d379d389c" CreationDate="2015-05-04T00:19:46.270" UserId="43" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1367" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="413" RevisionGUID="0f9ce13f-38d7-404c-9e89-03577ddc439c" CreationDate="2015-05-04T00:36:11.600" UserId="11" Text="There isn't much to go on with this one. The best first source I can find is a book called [Myths and Legends of the New York State Iroquois, by Harriet Maxwell Converse, 1908](http://goo.gl/e4v496). It's about as good of a first source as there's going to be, since Iroquois stories were transmitted from generation to generation orally, and other people like Ms. Converse had to be the ones to write them down.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, it seems that the father of the Sky Woman is known by many names, including **Sho-gwa-yah-dit-sat-oh** (He Who Created Us), **Ha-wen-ni-yu** (He Who Governs), **Hah-ni-go-e-yoo** (Good Mind), and **To-no-do-oo** (Great Spirit). He seems to have been a sort of monotheistic, omnipotent being who then created the earth and all the other gods:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; By Iroquois mythology, the earth was the thought of the Indian Ruler of a great island which floats in space. In all of the Iroquois myths, the natural and the supernatural are so closely bonded that they seem one realm. Yet in the story of the creation, the Ruler bestowed universal authority upon the two spirits, Good and Evil, who remain on earth always.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It goes on to tell the story you have in your question and the names of the Great Ruler that I wrote above.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, the best answer I give is that to ask this question is akin to asking a Jew/Christian &quot;where did God (the Father) come from&quot; or an ancient Greek where the Chaos came from. There is no answer besides &quot;He was always there.&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1368" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="414" RevisionGUID="f4ff8831-de61-4dfb-8556-4b521950f2f6" CreationDate="2015-05-04T00:43:36.603" UserId="43" Text="Zeus swallowed Metis to prevent the prophecy of her future son overthrowing him from being fulfilled, but she was already pregnant, and later her daughter Athena sprang from Zeus' head. What happened to Metis herself when this happened?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1369" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="414" RevisionGUID="f4ff8831-de61-4dfb-8556-4b521950f2f6" CreationDate="2015-05-04T00:43:36.603" UserId="43" Text="What happened to Metis after the birth of Athena?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1370" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="414" RevisionGUID="f4ff8831-de61-4dfb-8556-4b521950f2f6" CreationDate="2015-05-04T00:43:36.603" UserId="43" Text="|greek|zeus|metis|athena|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1371" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="415" RevisionGUID="b5eb5beb-e6f9-4a32-b1cb-4539403d33ca" CreationDate="2015-05-04T00:45:39.107" UserId="11" Text="Well, [according to Ovid](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/Metamorph4.htm#anchor_Toc64106272), she din't put Medusa's entire head on the shield, just the snakes from her hair:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jupiter’s daughter turned away, and hid her chaste eyes behind her aegis. So that it might not go unpunished, she changed the Gorgon’s hair to foul snakes. And now, to terrify her enemies, numbing them with fear, the goddess wears the snakes, that she created, as a breastplate.’&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Because Ovid (that translation anyway) says &quot;terrify&quot; and not &quot;turn to stone&quot;, it would suggest that **Athena didn't actually wear the entire head in her armor**, just the snakes; which perhaps on their own didn't turn anyone to stone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, it was certainly not because Medusa could not turn gods to stone; Perseus turned [Atlas](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_(mythology)), a Titan, to stone:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Perseus delaying resolutely, and combining that with calm words. Inferior in strength (who could equal Atlas in strength?), he said, ‘Well now, since you show me so little kindness, accept a gift’ and turning away himself, he held out Medusa’s foul head, on his left hand side. Atlas became a mountain, as huge as he himself had been. Now his hair and beard were changed into trees, his shoulders and hands into ridges. What had been his head before was the crest on the mountain summit. His bones became stones. Then he grew to an immense height in every part (so you gods determined) and the whole sky, with its many stars, rested on him." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1374" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="406" RevisionGUID="5d917f9b-060f-4cf7-9026-2abe901a4464" CreationDate="2015-05-04T01:00:29.550" UserId="183" Comment="added 60 characters in body" Text="For questions about Hermes, the messenger of the Greek gods." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1375" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="406" RevisionGUID="5d917f9b-060f-4cf7-9026-2abe901a4464" CreationDate="2015-05-04T01:00:29.550" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 108, 38 edit id of 99" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1376" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="410" RevisionGUID="c1d2429b-457a-4a9a-8de1-cce20f8760f7" CreationDate="2015-05-04T01:00:41.713" UserId="183" Comment="added 127 characters in body" Text="For questions about stories of floods that had drastic impact on civilizations, such as the Great Flood described in the Bible." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1377" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="410" RevisionGUID="c1d2429b-457a-4a9a-8de1-cce20f8760f7" CreationDate="2015-05-04T01:00:41.713" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 108, 38 edit id of 101" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1378" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="408" RevisionGUID="7a2e8f4a-85cc-4441-a6f6-cca9422b1f4e" CreationDate="2015-05-04T01:00:50.307" UserId="183" Comment="added 74 characters in body" Text="For questions about humans who periodically turn into wolf-like creatures." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1379" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="408" RevisionGUID="7a2e8f4a-85cc-4441-a6f6-cca9422b1f4e" CreationDate="2015-05-04T01:00:50.307" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 108, 38 edit id of 100" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1380" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="412" RevisionGUID="53b05a19-59b5-492d-ab40-42a15a4466ed" CreationDate="2015-05-04T01:04:04.507" UserId="43" Comment="For accuracy." Text="After Perseus killed Medusa, he gifted her head to Athena, who mounted it on a shield and used it in battle to turn her enemies into stone. How did she keep herself from being turned into stone by looking at the shield?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1381" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="416" RevisionGUID="57746861-cbad-4577-a27e-94293a06d5b5" CreationDate="2015-05-04T03:32:34.313" UserId="155" Text="There are two possibilities here: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Either, Metis was killed when Zeus swallowed her. This could be proven by this quote:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It may seem odd for Metis to have been pregnant with Athena but, never&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mentioned as her mother. This is because the classic Greeks believed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that children were generated solely from the fathers sperm. The women&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was thought to be nothing more than a vessel for the fetus to grow in.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Since Metis was killed well before Athena's birth her role doesn't&#xD;&#xA;&gt; count.[1][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, other myths state that she continues to live inside Zeus and that she is the source of Zeus' wisdom. Since she was the [goddess of wisdom, prudence and deep thought][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is said that she is the source for Zeus wisdom and that she still&#xD;&#xA;&gt; advises Zeus from his belly.[2][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I believe the second is more believable because [Zeus is himself titled Mêtieta, &quot;the wise counsellor,&quot; in the Homeric poems][4] and the Wikipedia article for Metis also states that (while she was inside Zeus):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; She began making a helmet and robe for her fetal daughter. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hammering as she made the helmet caused Zeus great pain.[3][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which would mean that Metis was alive inside Zeus before Athena was born.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://edweb.sdsu.edu/people/bdodge/scaffold/gg/titan.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.greekmythology.com/Titans/Metis/metis.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://edweb.sdsu.edu/people/bdodge/scaffold/gg/titan.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metis_%28mythology%29" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1382" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="416" RevisionGUID="74ba3d28-c4b3-44a7-872e-0d5c7b961f97" CreationDate="2015-05-04T03:37:56.107" UserId="155" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body" Text="There are two possibilities here: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Either, Metis was killed when Zeus swallowed her. This could be proven by this quote:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It may seem odd for Metis to have been pregnant with Athena but, never&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mentioned as her mother. This is because the classic Greeks believed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that children were generated solely from the fathers sperm. The women&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was thought to be nothing more than a vessel for the fetus to grow in.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Since Metis was killed well before Athena's birth her role doesn't&#xD;&#xA;&gt; count.[1][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, other myths state that she continues to live inside Zeus and that she is the source of Zeus' wisdom. Since she was the [goddess of wisdom, prudence and deep thought][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is said that she is the source for Zeus wisdom and that she still&#xD;&#xA;&gt; advises Zeus from his belly.[2][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I believe the second is more believable because [Zeus is himself titled Mêtieta, &quot;the wise counsellor,&quot; in the Homeric poems][4] and the Wikipedia article for Metis also states that (while she was inside Zeus):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; She began making a helmet and robe for her fetal daughter. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hammering as she made the helmet caused Zeus great pain.[3][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which would mean that Metis was not killed and was living inside Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://edweb.sdsu.edu/people/bdodge/scaffold/gg/titan.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.greekmythology.com/Titans/Metis/metis.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://edweb.sdsu.edu/people/bdodge/scaffold/gg/titan.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metis_%28mythology%29" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1383" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="416" RevisionGUID="9c637c3b-2322-4499-a777-c58a83590918" CreationDate="2015-05-04T03:49:56.297" UserId="155" Comment="deleted 36 characters in body" Text="There are two possibilities here: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Either, Metis was killed when Zeus swallowed her:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It may seem odd for Metis to have been pregnant with Athena but, never&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mentioned as her mother. This is because the classic Greeks believed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that children were generated solely from the fathers sperm. The women&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was thought to be nothing more than a vessel for the fetus to grow in.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Since Metis was killed well before Athena's birth her role doesn't&#xD;&#xA;&gt; count.[1][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, other myths state that she continues to live inside Zeus and that she is the source of Zeus' wisdom. Since she was the [goddess of wisdom, prudence and deep thought][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is said that she is the source for Zeus wisdom and that she still&#xD;&#xA;&gt; advises Zeus from his belly.[2][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I believe the second is more believable because [Zeus is himself titled Mêtieta, &quot;the wise counsellor,&quot; in the Homeric poems][4] and the Wikipedia article for Metis also states that (while she was inside Zeus):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; She began making a helmet and robe for her fetal daughter. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hammering as she made the helmet caused Zeus great pain.[3][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which would mean that Metis was not killed and was living inside Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://edweb.sdsu.edu/people/bdodge/scaffold/gg/titan.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.greekmythology.com/Titans/Metis/metis.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://edweb.sdsu.edu/people/bdodge/scaffold/gg/titan.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metis_%28mythology%29" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1384" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="416" RevisionGUID="a44d7ecd-5594-4a4b-9b61-edf83048a856" CreationDate="2015-05-04T04:05:47.750" UserId="79" Comment="added 39 characters in body" Text="There are two possibilities here: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Either, Metis was killed when Zeus swallowed her:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It may seem odd for Metis to have been pregnant with Athena but, never&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mentioned as her mother. This is because the classic Greeks believed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that children were generated solely from the fathers sperm. The women&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was thought to be nothing more than a vessel for the fetus to grow in.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Since Metis was killed well before Athena's birth her role doesn't&#xD;&#xA;&gt; count.&lt;sup&gt;[[1][1]]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, other myths state that she continues to live inside Zeus and that she is the source of Zeus' wisdom. Since she was the [goddess of wisdom, prudence and deep thought][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is said that she is the source for Zeus wisdom and that she still&#xD;&#xA;&gt; advises Zeus from his belly.&lt;sup&gt;[[2][3]]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I believe the second is more believable because [Zeus is himself titled Mêtieta, &quot;the wise counsellor,&quot; in the Homeric poems][4] and the Wikipedia article for Metis also states that (while she was inside Zeus):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; She began making a helmet and robe for her fetal daughter. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hammering as she made the helmet caused Zeus great pain.&lt;sup&gt;[[3][4]]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which would mean that Metis was not killed and was living inside Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://edweb.sdsu.edu/people/bdodge/scaffold/gg/titan.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.greekmythology.com/Titans/Metis/metis.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://edweb.sdsu.edu/people/bdodge/scaffold/gg/titan.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metis_%28mythology%29" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1387" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="417" RevisionGUID="a943fb22-4436-4f2e-be19-7703fdcdf28f" CreationDate="2015-05-04T05:38:05.193" UserId="42" Text="I believe there is simply no clear explanation offered for this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Two sources I'm aware of make reference to the mortality of Medusa.  They are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Hesiod, Theogony, 276](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:abo:tlg,0020,001:276)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt; Gorgons who dwell beyond glorious Ocean in the frontier land towards Night where are the clear-voiced Hesperides, Sthenno, and Euryale, and Medusa who suffered a woeful fate: she was mortal, but the two were undying and grew not old. With her lay the Dark-haired One in a soft meadow amid spring flowers. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Pseudo-Apollodorus, Library, 2.4.2](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus2.html)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt; ...he flew to the ocean and caught the Gorgons asleep. They were Stheno, Euryale, and Medusa. Now Medusa alone was mortal; for that reason Perseus was sent to fetch her head.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Neither of these offers any explanation of the phenomenon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Possible explanations:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Athena's punishment - While both of the quotes sources refer to Medusa having offspring with Poseidon, the first mention I can find of Athena's (more accurately Minerva's) punishment is [Ovid's Metamorphosies, Book 4](http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph4.htm#478205208), in response to the question of &quot;...why Medusa, alone among her sisters, had snakes twining in her hair.&quot;  Which is somewhat difficult to reconcile with the quoted Apollodorus myth, in which all three are described as similarly monstrous:&#xD;&#xA; &gt; But the Gorgons had heads twined about with the scales of dragons, and great tusks like swine's, and brazen hands, and golden wings, by which they flew; and they turned to stone such as beheld them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Perhaps it just works out that way sometimes.   Looking at the offspring of Phorcys and Ceto, some few of them appear to have been killed.  In one version of the story, Ladon was killed by Heracles, in pursuit of the Apples of the Hesperides (his 11th labor).  Echidna was killed by Argus Panoptes, as related in pseudo-Apollodorus Library.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    The idea that, by some chance of fate, she was born mortal seems more in line with my impression from the phrasing used in translations of Hesiod, with phrases like &quot;suffered a woeful fate&quot; or &quot;suffered grievously&quot;, in the two translation I've seen.  That turn of phrase seems interesting to me.  Analysis of the original text might be valuable here, but I am unequipped to provide it." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1391" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="393" RevisionGUID="29655e34-9fd1-4773-ad62-e756e4e7f0c2" CreationDate="2015-05-04T06:55:24.080" UserId="108" Comment="added 291 characters in body" Text="For questions on the mythology and beliefs of the Celtic people, who were once widespread across Europe but now mostly confined to Brittany, Scotland, Ireland, Wales and Cornwall. Questions specific to one of the Celtic nations should be tagged by the appropriate regional tag, e.g. [wales]." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1392" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="393" RevisionGUID="29655e34-9fd1-4773-ad62-e756e4e7f0c2" CreationDate="2015-05-04T06:55:24.080" Comment="Proposed by 108 approved by 38, 57 edit id of 94" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1394" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="254" RevisionGUID="8d400646-ff7a-4ecd-829a-aeffc958368e" CreationDate="2015-05-04T08:38:57.330" UserId="79" Comment="added 13 characters in body" Text="The myth of dragons can be found in many different traditions, with the major two being the European dragon and the Chinese dragon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;There are *two **distinct** cultural traditions* of dragons: the European&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dragon, derived from European folk traditions and ultimately related&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to Greek and Middle Eastern mythologies, and the Chinese dragon, with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; counterparts in Japan (namely the Japanese dragon), Korea and other&#xD;&#xA;&gt; East Asian countries&lt;sup&gt;[[1][1]]&lt;/sup&gt;.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [Smithsonian][2], one theory behind this myth is the unearthing of dinosaur fossils:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Ancient people may have discovered dinosaur fossils and understandably&#xD;&#xA;&gt; misinterpreted them as the remains of dragons. Chang Qu, a Chinese&#xD;&#xA;&gt; historian from the 4th century B.C., mislabeled such a fossil in what&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is now Sichuan Province.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you can see, the Chinese historian in the article discovered these dinosaur fossils in the 4th century B.C., however, when (and where) did the **earliest known myth of 'dragons'** originate?&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon#cite_note-1&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.smithsonian.com/science-nature/where-did-dragons-come-from-23969126/#3MPFc6DsH7dCBMOV.99" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1395" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="177" RevisionGUID="87d895e5-f705-4909-af26-b08b2455a0e4" CreationDate="2015-05-04T08:49:56.333" UserId="79" Comment="added 67 characters in body" Text="I don't think that the number 12 symbolized everything, as there are occurrence of other numbers in various stories. Odysseus sailed for 9 days with the gift of Favorable Winds from Aeolus, god of wind and on the 10th day, the bag was opened as he saw Ithaka for on the horizon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dimitra searched for her daughter for 9 days and on the tenth day, she discovered she had been taken to the underworld,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Demeter wandered about in search of her daughter for nine days, without taking any nectar or ambrosia, and without bathing.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;source: [Theoi article on Demeter][1]&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But 12 does seem to be associated with a harmonious state. Different cultures have different views on the same numbers. [Some cultures][2] see number '6' as a positive sign. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Demeter.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbers_in_Chinese_culture#Six" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1396" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="106" RevisionGUID="fb19c33d-60ae-47cc-98c0-6ae4ba0749e1" CreationDate="2015-05-04T08:53:05.977" UserId="79" Comment="deleted 7 characters in body" Text="The reason that his mother 'Alcmene' named him as such, was to mock Hera's failed attempts at preventing her from delivering her child into the world. She required assistance to escape the [Hera's minions][1] and her daughter Eileithyia, played a [role in this][2]. There are different accounts of the efforts Hera put into this plot. Hercule's birth was Hera's 'failure', so by calling it a 'glory' would ridicule. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcmene#Pausanias&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Ouranios/Eileithyia.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1397" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="102" RevisionGUID="a5170809-c1e0-4c78-a8da-95b2304fef05" CreationDate="2015-05-04T08:59:05.107" UserId="79" Comment="deleted 8 characters in body" Text="The sources used for many of the stories are few. [Hesiod][1], is a major source for many of the myths of his time, if there were differences in the tales between the city states he was from (Kimi in the island of Evia), it would be difficult to tell. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We can tell that the myths had differences over time in the sources. We cannot be sure if this was due to different poets/bards who told/wrote the stories or different regions had their own versions. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Places like Volos would place emphasis on certain tales and probably embellish the grandness of the Argonauts.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesiod" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1398" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="418" RevisionGUID="fb28b9be-6e83-4484-bc90-9b109f33a283" CreationDate="2015-05-04T09:42:58.567" UserId="29" Text="There is no direct link between `Chiron` and `Charon`. That similarity means nothing; to have a direct link through their names, their meanings would have to be similar, not just the letters of which they consist.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm not going to get into details on their stories, since what you have posted is more than enough, I just want to note that `-ων` or even `-ρων` is a suffix of many ancient Greek names (Chiron is Χεί**ρων** and Charon is Χά**ρων** in Greek), so you cannot suppose a link between the two judging from two or three letters.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1399" PostHistoryTypeId="13" PostId="394" RevisionGUID="4a09f3d9-f4ad-41c2-b93d-644833b1b0b0" CreationDate="2015-05-04T09:57:57.883" UserId="108" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:108,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Semaphore&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="1400" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="148" RevisionGUID="8c1113e4-30eb-49dd-bab7-ceafe5f20aae" CreationDate="2015-05-04T10:10:29.403" UserId="29" Comment="added 1244 characters in body" Text="The number `12` is used in most religions as something holy and perfect. In every religion you can see that the number twelve is always present in main events or facts:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;e.g.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* **Greek Mythology**: Labours of Hercules, the Dodecatheon and twelve Titans, according to Hesiod.&#xD;&#xA;* **Christianity**: The 12 Disciples of Christ&#xD;&#xA;* **Norse Mythology**: Odin had 12 sons&#xD;&#xA;* **Islam**:  There are twelve Imams, legitimate successors of the Islamic prophet.&#xD;&#xA;* **Judaism**: 12 tribes of Israel.&#xD;&#xA;* **Sumerian Pantheon**: 12 Major Gods &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are way too many examples where 12 is used and I it's probably because `12` had a special place for ancient people, since the use of the [Duodecimal][1] and [Sexagesimal][2] systems was widespread at the time and it's actually the first systems used in arithmetics. I have found no reference (and I believe there isn't any) as to **why** it is deemed a special number, apart from the fact that it had many mathematical properties, such as being the first number with six divisors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The number 12 is a **highly respected and practical** number. It has **many factors for such a low number**, so it is one of the lowest easily-divisible numbers. Number 11 is not divisible, number 10 only has two factors (2 and 5) meaning that if you measure anything in tens, you can only divide it into either halves or pairs. Number 9 only divides into 3, number 8 only into 2 and 4, number 7 is a prime number with no factors, number 6 only breaks down into half or thirds, number 5 is a prime, you can only halve number 4 or 2, and 3 and 1 don't divide and are so small you wouldn't want to measure things in them, anyway. **Number 12, however, divides into 6, 4, 3 and 2, giving it a large number of practical uses where things have to be divided up into whole numbers, from calendars to clocks.** As a result of all these factors, mathematicians get excited about the number 12 and apparently, they always have done! For example, **Pythagoras, the classical mathematics genius, teacher, and leader of a pagan religious movement, taught that the number 12 had divine, profound mystical meaning.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source: http://www.humanreligions.info/twelve.html#Maths&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duodecimal&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexagesimal" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1401" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="394" RevisionGUID="e8f7535f-1b9a-451f-8dd4-f65fc79f2b22" CreationDate="2015-05-04T10:11:21.683" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 2046 characters in body" Text="It *actually* was a gradual process. It was primarily driven by his personal popularity in a society where ancestor worship has long been an integral element. Moreso than his fame as a general, his personality traits (loyalty, bravery, honesty) appealed to traditional Chinese sensibilities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These factor led to his popularity steadily increasing, before he really became a deity per se (as opposed to a folk hero venerated in the tradition of ancestor worship). So that by the [Song Dynasty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_dynasty), the bureaucrat-author Hao Jing wrote that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 其英靈義烈遍天下，故所在廟祀，福善禍惡，神威赫然，人咸畏而敬之，而燕、趙、荊、楚爲尤篤。郡國州縣、鄉邑間井皆有廟。&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *(rough translation)* His righteousness and strength of character is known throughout the world. Hence his temple brings fortune and wards off disaster, and people respect his might. The provinces of Yan, Zhao, Jin and Chu are particularly pious. Every county, province, city and village has his temples.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore, when he received his imperial (divine) title during the Ming Dynasty, it was already after centuries of popularity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For references, see - 蔡东洲, 文廷海. 关羽崇拜硏究. 巴蜀书社, 2001." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1402" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="394" RevisionGUID="844e9a03-a751-47d8-909e-a783ae187eb4" CreationDate="2015-05-04T10:27:46.900" UserId="108" Comment="added 631 characters in body" Text="It *actually* was a gradual process. It was primarily driven by his personal popularity in a society where ancestor worship has long been an integral element. Moreso than his fame as a general, his personality traits (loyalty, bravery, honesty) appealed to traditional Chinese sensibilities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These factors led to his popularity steadily increasing, before he really became a deity per se (as opposed to a folk hero venerated in the tradition of ancestor worship). So that by the [Song Dynasty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_dynasty), the bureaucrat-author Hao Jing wrote that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 其英靈義烈遍天下，故所在廟祀，福善禍惡，神威赫然，人咸畏而敬之，而燕、趙、荊、楚爲尤篤。郡國州縣、鄉邑間井皆有廟。&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *(rough translation)* His righteousness and strength of character is known throughout the world. Hence his temple brings fortune and wards off disaster, and people respect his might. The provinces of Yan, Zhao, Jin and Chu are particularly pious. Every county, province, city and village has his temples.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Between the Song and Yuan dynasties, a tradition of historical fiction flourished in China. The Three Kingdom era from which Guan Yu hailed were one of the most popular topics, and this greatly aided the spread of his fame.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is well known that the spread of the worship of Guan Yu as a folk deity beyond the confines of sectarian religion was communicated in the vernacular novels and plays of the Song-Yuan transition.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Duara, Prasenjit. *The Global and Regional in China’s Nation-Formation.* Routledge, 2008.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore, when he received his imperial (divine) title during the Ming Dynasty, it was already after centuries of popularity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the [process of deification previously described](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/revisions/394/3), see: *关羽崇拜硏究* by 蔡东洲 &amp; 文廷海, 2001" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1403" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="148" RevisionGUID="6699333c-6ecf-4343-a59a-af76783bfba1" CreationDate="2015-05-04T10:31:53.267" UserId="29" Comment="added 23 characters in body" Text="The number `12` is used in most religions as something holy and perfect. In every religion you can see that the number twelve is always present in main events or facts:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;e.g.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* **Greek Mythology**: Labours of Hercules, the Dodecatheon and twelve Titans, according to Hesiod.&#xD;&#xA;* **Christianity**: The 12 Disciples of Christ&#xD;&#xA;* **Norse Mythology**: Odin had 12 sons&#xD;&#xA;* **Islam**:  There are twelve Imams, legitimate successors of the Islamic prophet.&#xD;&#xA;* **Judaism**: 12 tribes of Israel.&#xD;&#xA;* **Sumerian Pantheon**: 12 Major Gods &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are way too many examples where 12 is used and I it's probably because `12` had a special place for ancient people, since the use of the [Duodecimal][1] and [Sexagesimal][2] systems was widespread at the time and it's actually the first systems used in arithmetics. I have found no reference (and I believe there isn't any) as to **why** it is deemed a special number in a religious essence, apart from the fact that it had many mathematical properties, such as being the first number with six divisors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The number 12 is a **highly respected and practical** number. It has **many factors for such a low number**, so it is one of the lowest easily-divisible numbers. Number 11 is not divisible, number 10 only has two factors (2 and 5) meaning that if you measure anything in tens, you can only divide it into either halves or pairs. Number 9 only divides into 3, number 8 only into 2 and 4, number 7 is a prime number with no factors, number 6 only breaks down into half or thirds, number 5 is a prime, you can only halve number 4 or 2, and 3 and 1 don't divide and are so small you wouldn't want to measure things in them, anyway. **Number 12, however, divides into 6, 4, 3 and 2, giving it a large number of practical uses where things have to be divided up into whole numbers, from calendars to clocks.** As a result of all these factors, mathematicians get excited about the number 12 and apparently, they always have done! For example, **Pythagoras, the classical mathematics genius, teacher, and leader of a pagan religious movement, taught that the number 12 had divine, profound mystical meaning.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source: http://www.humanreligions.info/twelve.html#Maths&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duodecimal&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexagesimal" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1404" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="146" RevisionGUID="16cd196f-8dfe-4b75-befb-3e3f3bbc9f42" CreationDate="2015-05-04T10:32:22.653" UserId="29" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|interpretation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1406" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="418" RevisionGUID="a143867f-6b17-4a6d-ad4c-0d87234e8169" CreationDate="2015-05-04T10:54:04.460" UserId="29" Comment="added 847 characters in body" Text="There is no direct link between `Chiron` and `Charon`. That similarity means nothing; to have a direct link through their names, their meanings would have to be similar, not just the letters of which they consist.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Το όνομα Χάρων πιθανότατα προέρχεται από το επίθετο &quot;χάρων&quot;, που αποτελεί ποιητικό τύπο του αρχαίου χαροπός/ -ωπός &lt; ρήμα χαίρω. Δεδομένου ότι ο Χάρων ήταν χθόνια θεότητα, η απευθείας συσχέτιση με το ρήμα χαίρω οφείλεται σε ευφημισμό.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This greek text implies that `Charon` is named after the verb `Χαίρω`, which means to be glad. His name is essentially a euphemism. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Χείρων (από το χειρ) είναι αυτός που είναι ικανός στα χέρια, αυτός που τα χειρίζεται καλά. Και φυσικά ένας γιατρός τα χρησιμοποιεί για να γιατρεύει. Για να αλείφει βότανα. Για να διορθώνει τα σπασίματα. Για να κλείνει τις πληγές. Δηλαδή χειροπράκτης ή και χειρούργος. Τέτοιος λοιπόν γιατρός ήταν ο μέγιστος Χείρων. Με τη βοήθεια των χεριών του γιάτρευε κάθε αρρώστια.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Τhis Greek text implies that `Χείρων` is someone adept at using his hands (hand is `Χείρ` in ancient Greek), since Chiron was a doctor who would heal every sickness with his medicine.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I also want to note that `-ων` or even `-ρων` is a suffix of many ancient Greek names (Chiron is Χεί**ρων** and Charon is Χά**ρων** in Greek), so you could not suppose a link between the two judging from two or three letters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sources:** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* http://www.pame.gr/istoria/mithologia/kentavroi.html&#xD;&#xA;* http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A7%CE%AC%CF%81%CF%89%CE%BD_%28%CE%BC%CF%85%CE%B8%CE%BF%CE%BB%CE%BF%CE%B3%CE%AF%CE%B1%29" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1407" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="418" RevisionGUID="55b57a10-1c24-4844-b8a6-5a28162e2ec8" CreationDate="2015-05-04T10:59:22.257" UserId="29" Comment="added 847 characters in body" Text="There is no direct link between `Chiron` and `Charon`. That similarity means nothing; to have a direct link through their names, their meanings would have to be similar, not just the letters of which they consist.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Το όνομα Χάρων πιθανότατα προέρχεται από το επίθετο &quot;χάρων&quot;, που αποτελεί ποιητικό τύπο του αρχαίου χαροπός/ -ωπός &lt; ρήμα χαίρω. Δεδομένου ότι ο Χάρων ήταν χθόνια θεότητα, η απευθείας συσχέτιση με το ρήμα χαίρω οφείλεται σε ευφημισμό.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This Greek text implies that `Charon` is named after the verb `Χαίρω`, which means to be glad. His name is essentially a euphemism. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Χείρων (από το χειρ) είναι αυτός που είναι ικανός στα χέρια, αυτός που τα χειρίζεται καλά. Και φυσικά ένας γιατρός τα χρησιμοποιεί για να γιατρεύει. Για να αλείφει βότανα. Για να διορθώνει τα σπασίματα. Για να κλείνει τις πληγές. Δηλαδή χειροπράκτης ή και χειρούργος. Τέτοιος λοιπόν γιατρός ήταν ο μέγιστος Χείρων. Με τη βοήθεια των χεριών του γιάτρευε κάθε αρρώστια.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Τhis Greek text implies that `Χείρων` is someone adept at using his hands (hand is `Χείρ` in ancient Greek), since `Chiron` was a doctor who would heal every sickness with his medicine.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I also want to note that `-ων` or even `-ρων` is a suffix of many ancient Greek names (`Chiron` is Χεί**ρων** and `Charon` is Χά**ρων** in Greek), so you could not suppose a link between the two judging from two or three letters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sources:** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* http://www.pame.gr/istoria/mithologia/kentavroi.html&#xD;&#xA;* http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A7%CE%AC%CF%81%CF%89%CE%BD_%28%CE%BC%CF%85%CE%B8%CE%BF%CE%BB%CE%BF%CE%B3%CE%AF%CE%B1%29" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1408" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="394" RevisionGUID="c0a90f81-8265-4c99-bdca-31d2f61381f4" CreationDate="2015-05-04T11:04:14.310" UserId="108" Comment="added 631 characters in body" Text="It *actually* was a gradual process. It was primarily driven by his personal popularity in a society where ancestor worship has long been an integral element. Moreso than his fame as a general, his personality traits (loyalty, bravery, honesty) appealed to traditional Chinese sensibilities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These factors led to his popularity steadily increasing, before he really became a deity per se (as opposed to a folk hero venerated in the tradition of ancestor worship). So that by the [Song Dynasty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_dynasty), the bureaucrat-author Hao Jing wrote that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 其英靈義烈遍天下，故所在廟祀，福善禍惡，神威赫然，人咸畏而敬之，而燕、趙、荊、楚爲尤篤。郡國州縣、鄉邑間井皆有廟。&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *(rough translation)* His righteousness and strength of character is known throughout the world. Hence his temple brings fortune and wards off disaster, and people respect his might. The provinces of Yan, Zhao, Jin and Chu are particularly pious. Every county, province, city and village has his temples.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Between the Song and [Yuan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuan_dynasty) dynasties, a tradition of [historical fiction](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_fiction#10-18th-century) flourished in China. The [Three Kingdoms era](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Kingdoms) from which Guan Yu hailed were one of [the most popular topics](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_of_the_Three_Kingdoms), and this greatly aided the spread of his fame.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is well known that the spread of the worship of Guan Yu as a folk deity beyond the confines of sectarian religion was communicated in the vernacular novels and plays of the Song-Yuan transition.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Duara, Prasenjit. *The Global and Regional in China’s Nation-Formation.* Routledge, 2008.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore, when he received his imperial (divine) title during the Ming Dynasty, it was already after centuries of popularity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For references on the [deification process described previously](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/revisions/394/3), see: `关羽崇拜硏究 by 蔡东洲 &amp; 文廷海`" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1409" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="419" RevisionGUID="64a1f176-7d46-4b80-98c2-05ab7a26ea8d" CreationDate="2015-05-04T11:50:52.950" UserId="29" Text="*This question is similar to a question asked in the definition stage and since noone has asked it yet and since I am curious about its answer, here it is:*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odin's ravens would continuously fly all over Midgard collect information and bring it back to Odin. Citing [Wikipedia][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Norse mythology, Huginn (from Old Norse &quot;thought&quot;) and Muninn&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Old Norse &quot;memory&quot; or &quot;mind&quot;) are a pair of ravens that fly all&#xD;&#xA;&gt; over the world, Midgard, and bring information to the god Odin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the poem [Grímnismál][2], it is said that Odin is afraid the two ravens would not come back.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Citing [Wikipedia][1] yet again:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    Hugin and Munin fly each day &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    over the spacious earth. &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    I fear for Hugin, that he come not back, &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    yet more anxious am I for Munin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why would a god be afraid that his ravens would not come back? Is there any secret meaning, connected to the ravens' names (`Memory` and `Thought`)?&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huginn_and_Muninn&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gr%C3%ADmnism%C3%A1l" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1410" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="419" RevisionGUID="64a1f176-7d46-4b80-98c2-05ab7a26ea8d" CreationDate="2015-05-04T11:50:52.950" UserId="29" Text="Why was Odin afraid that his ravens would not return back to him?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1411" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="419" RevisionGUID="64a1f176-7d46-4b80-98c2-05ab7a26ea8d" CreationDate="2015-05-04T11:50:52.950" UserId="29" Text="|norse|odin|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1412" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="419" RevisionGUID="19b3e297-0e23-44d5-b122-413f7031155b" CreationDate="2015-05-04T12:06:36.340" UserId="29" Comment="deleted 4 characters in body" Text="*This question is similar to a question asked in the definition stage and since noone has asked it yet and since I am curious about its answer, here it is:*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odin's ravens would continuously fly all over Midgard collect information and bring it back to Odin. Citing [Wikipedia][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Norse mythology, Huginn (from Old Norse &quot;thought&quot;) and Muninn&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Old Norse &quot;memory&quot; or &quot;mind&quot;) are a pair of ravens that fly all&#xD;&#xA;&gt; over the world, Midgard, and bring information to the god Odin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the poem [Grímnismál][2], it is said that Odin is afraid the two ravens would not come back.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Citing [Wikipedia][1] yet again:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    Hugin and Munin fly each day &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    over the spacious earth. &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    I fear for Hugin, that he come not back, &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    yet more anxious am I for Munin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why would a god be afraid that his ravens would not come back? Is there any secret meaning, connected to the ravens' names (`Memory` and `Thought`)?&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huginn_and_Muninn&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe06.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1414" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="419" RevisionGUID="1e8c5c18-1c59-4573-a8a3-ebe592c40236" CreationDate="2015-05-04T12:07:29.070" UserId="79" Comment="added 3 characters in body" Text="*This question is similar to a question asked in the definition stage and since noone has asked it yet and since I am curious about its answer, here it is:*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odin's ravens would continuously fly all over Midgard to collect information and bring it back to Odin. Citing [Wikipedia][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Norse mythology, Huginn (from Old Norse &quot;thought&quot;) and Muninn&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Old Norse &quot;memory&quot; or &quot;mind&quot;) are a pair of ravens that fly all&#xD;&#xA;&gt; over the world, Midgard, and bring information to the god Odin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the poem [Grímnismál][2], it is said that Odin is afraid the two ravens would not come back.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Citing [Wikipedia][1] yet again:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    Hugin and Munin fly each day &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    over the spacious earth. &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    I fear for Hugin, that he come not back, &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    yet more anxious am I for Munin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why would a god be afraid that his ravens would not come back? Is there any secret meaning, connected to the ravens' names (`Memory` and `Thought`)?&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huginn_and_Muninn&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe06.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1415" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="419" RevisionGUID="183aa600-c786-4171-9ec2-b36f6bea4651" CreationDate="2015-05-04T12:16:44.430" UserId="57" Comment="no need for meta commentary, it's just a distraction that doesn't add anything valuable to the question. " Text="Odin's ravens would continuously fly all over Midgard to collect information and bring it back to Odin. Citing [Wikipedia][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Norse mythology, Huginn (from Old Norse &quot;thought&quot;) and Muninn&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Old Norse &quot;memory&quot; or &quot;mind&quot;) are a pair of ravens that fly all&#xD;&#xA;&gt; over the world, Midgard, and bring information to the god Odin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the poem [Grímnismál][2], it is said that Odin is afraid the two ravens would not come back.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Citing [Wikipedia][1] yet again:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    Hugin and Munin fly each day &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    over the spacious earth. &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    I fear for Hugin, that he come not back, &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    yet more anxious am I for Munin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why would a god be afraid that his ravens would not come back? Is there any secret meaning, connected to the ravens' names (`Memory` and `Thought`)?&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huginn_and_Muninn&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe06.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1416" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="420" RevisionGUID="3422a033-9b99-4a95-930f-66444cb48af5" CreationDate="2015-05-04T12:17:02.523" UserId="194" Text="I often hear of a story of Loki taking Mjölnir away from Thor and selling it to giants. Thor then gets angry and makes Loki join him in wearing wedding dresses to enter the giants place unnoticed to get it back.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the actual story behind this and who were these giants and were they actually able to wield Mjölnir? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1417" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="420" RevisionGUID="3422a033-9b99-4a95-930f-66444cb48af5" CreationDate="2015-05-04T12:17:02.523" UserId="194" Text="What is the story behind Thor wearing a wedding dress to get Mjölnir back?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1418" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="420" RevisionGUID="3422a033-9b99-4a95-930f-66444cb48af5" CreationDate="2015-05-04T12:17:02.523" UserId="194" Text="|norse|thor|mjolnir|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1419" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="421" RevisionGUID="876a9696-969d-4f70-867d-6cae77a9edc9" CreationDate="2015-05-04T12:31:06.110" UserId="57" Text="The source of the story is the [Þrymskviða poem (The Lay of Thrym)][1], which is included in the [Poetic Edda][2].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was Thrymr, king of the jotnar, who stole Mjölnir. Loki wasn't involved in stealing the hammer, but he did accompany Thor to Jötunheimr to retrieve it, dressed as Thor's bridesmaid.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.germanicmythology.com/PoeticEdda/THYBryant.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1420" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="420" RevisionGUID="1664fdd7-3421-4e82-817f-077d3d36281b" CreationDate="2015-05-04T12:32:53.440" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|thor|mjolnir|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1421" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="421" RevisionGUID="b5fdbe3a-21ba-4a3c-a840-9f04aed26a0d" CreationDate="2015-05-04T12:43:19.767" UserId="57" Comment="added 255 characters in body" Text="The source of the story is the [Þrymskviða poem (The Lay of Thrym)][1], which is included in the [Poetic Edda][2].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was Thrymr, king of the [jötnar][3], who stole Mjölnir. He then demanded the gods allow him to marry [Freyja][4], in order to return it. Thor travelled to  Jötunheimr to claim back his hammer, and he managed to sneak in dressed as a bride.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Loki wasn't involved in stealing the hammer, but he did accompany Thor, disguised as his bridesmaid.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.germanicmythology.com/PoeticEdda/THYBryant.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6tunn&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freyja" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1422" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="422" RevisionGUID="194fa0d6-f59b-409c-9410-d04784d2a3ac" CreationDate="2015-05-04T12:45:19.437" UserId="29" Text="As said already, your story is taken from [Þrymskviða][1]. There's a retelling of the story named [The Children of Odin][2], which refers to that in a more easily comprehensible way:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The actual story does not say that Loki stole the hammer from Thor. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Then when they were far from Jötunheim Thor missed Miölnir, missed the hammer that was the defence of Asgard and the help of the Gods. He could not remember how or where he had mislaid it. Loki's thoughts went toward Thrym, that stupid Giant who yet had cunning streaks in him. Thor, who had lost the hammer that he had sworn never to let out of his sight, did not know what to do.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;But Loki thought it would be worth while to see if Thrym knew anything about it. He went first to Asgard.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By having a discussion with Thrym, the hammer's location is identified:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Ha, Loki, Shape-changer,&quot; said Thrym, &quot;you are there! But all your watching will not help you to find Miölnir.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;I have buried Thor's hammer eight miles deep in the earth. Find it if you can. It is below the caves of the Dwarfs.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;During the feast, where Thor and Loki are disguised, the Hammer is presented to `Thor`.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Then Thrym, the stupidest of the Giants, rose up and brought Miölnir, the defence of Asgard, into the feasting hall. Thor could hardly restrain himself from springing up and seizing it from the Giant. But Loki was able to keep him still. Thrym brought over the hammer and put the handle into the hands of her whom he thought was his bride. Thor's hands closed on his hammer. Instantly he stood up. The veil fell off him. His countenance and his blazing eyes were seen by all. He struck one blow on the wall of the house. Down it crashed. Then Thor went striding out of the ruin with Loki beside him, while within the Giants bellowed as the roof and walls fell down on them. And so was Miölnir, the defence of Asgard, lost and won back.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Erymskvi%C3%B0a&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0025VKZFM/internetsacredte" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1423" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="350" RevisionGUID="28bda49b-4539-4ddb-a5f5-a20fbd81731d" CreationDate="2015-05-04T12:46:38.793" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 48 characters in body" Text="The Epic of Gilgamesh, a Mesopotamian epic poem." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1424" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="350" RevisionGUID="28bda49b-4539-4ddb-a5f5-a20fbd81731d" CreationDate="2015-05-04T12:46:38.793" Comment="Proposed by 62 approved by 38, 29 edit id of 74" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1425" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="385" RevisionGUID="26a881ba-f6f4-415e-bbc5-01a7f7450ead" CreationDate="2015-05-04T12:49:03.333" UserId="108" Comment="added 142 characters in body" Text="For questions on a type of celestial being in the Abrahamic and Zoroastrian beliefs, typically acting as messengers begin heaven and humanity." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1426" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="385" RevisionGUID="26a881ba-f6f4-415e-bbc5-01a7f7450ead" CreationDate="2015-05-04T12:49:03.333" Comment="Proposed by 108 approved by 57, 29 edit id of 90" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1427" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="423" RevisionGUID="c7efbe91-82c6-402c-ad1f-a3f723d6c120" CreationDate="2015-05-04T13:04:55.187" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1428" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="424" RevisionGUID="b0a10347-dc9a-44d8-ab28-a36788b5ee45" CreationDate="2015-05-04T13:04:55.187" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1429" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="425" RevisionGUID="2fc753fd-cdbb-41ea-99e5-f99ac91ea608" CreationDate="2015-05-04T13:06:48.670" UserId="171" Text="I found a different wikipedia source, for [_Hugin a Munin_][1] which states:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Scholars have linked Odin's relation to Huginn and Muninn to shamanic practice. John Lindow relates Odin's ability to send his &quot;thought&quot; (Huginn) and &quot;mind&quot; (Muninn) to the trance-state journey of shamans. Lindow says the Grímnismál stanza where **Odin worries about the return of Huginn and Muninn &quot;would be consistent with the danger that the shaman faces on the trance-state journey**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although it seems that this approach of interpreting the ravens as a personification of the Odin's intellectual powers has been criticized too.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huginn_and_Muninn#Theories" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1430" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="426" RevisionGUID="8cf7412c-f760-460a-8da7-bdf5453ae4ce" CreationDate="2015-05-04T13:14:18.087" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1431" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="427" RevisionGUID="e7dec1f2-594a-4113-bf05-d731ff70942b" CreationDate="2015-05-04T13:14:18.087" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1433" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="428" RevisionGUID="1dee0cda-b9d9-4e78-90de-56953bdc786d" CreationDate="2015-05-04T13:17:05.820" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1434" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="429" RevisionGUID="73ccb321-e84f-42cb-b102-aaeffa6b45a4" CreationDate="2015-05-04T13:17:05.820" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1435" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="430" RevisionGUID="4e859640-6f63-4095-a799-af94cc513d37" CreationDate="2015-05-04T13:20:33.293" UserId="111" Text="In [his 1907 essay on Chukchi mythology](http://digitallibrary.amnh.org/dspace/bitstream/2246/5745/5/M11Pt02.pdf), Wladimir Bogoraz describe their cosmogony as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to the cosmogonical beliefs of the Chukchee, there are several worlds situated one above another, in such a manner that the ground of one forms the sky of the one below. The number of these worlds is stated as five, seven, or nine. These worlds are arranged symmetrically above and below the earth, each of the lower worlds having a corresponding one above it.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [...]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; All these worlds, as said before, are joined by holes situated under the Polar Star. Shamans and spirits while going from one world to another slip through these holes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And earlier, while describing the star itself:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The most important is the Polar Star, which is called in the Chukchee language Ilu'kalin e'nier or Ilu'k-e'iner (&quot;motionless star&quot;), or Aglqe'p- e'ner (&quot;nail star&quot;), or Unp-e'nier (&quot;the pole-stuck star&quot;). This latter name occurs throughout Asia. It suggests the existence of a simile in which all other stars move around the Polar Star as horses or reindeer move around a pole to which they are tethered. The house of the Polar Star stands in the zenith. Directly under it is a hole through which it is possible to pass from one world to another. Through a series of these holes the Polar Star can be seen in al the lower and higher worlds, while the other constellations change with the diferent worlds. Carrying this idea further, the house of the Polar Star is supposed to be higher than that of any other star. Itis made of a material similar to ice, and on the top of it is set the beacon- lamp of the star.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Chukchi being a people living in the arctic Siberia, one would indeed expect the North Star to be central to their cosmogony. Hence my question: did the other people indigenous to the Arctic develop similar cosmogonical beliefs surrounding the North Star?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1436" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="430" RevisionGUID="4e859640-6f63-4095-a799-af94cc513d37" CreationDate="2015-05-04T13:20:33.293" UserId="111" Text="Role of the North Star in arctic mythologies" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1437" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="430" RevisionGUID="4e859640-6f63-4095-a799-af94cc513d37" CreationDate="2015-05-04T13:20:33.293" UserId="111" Text="|cross-mythology|arctic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1438" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="431" RevisionGUID="9fb708c4-644e-4131-9495-172312535282" CreationDate="2015-05-04T13:22:03.337" UserId="51" Text="According to Sitchin interpretation of Sumerian mythology, this is how gods grouped the stars in each sky segment into constellations (the twelve zodiac constellations) and named them after their own leaders." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1439" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="432" RevisionGUID="2b1bc8dd-682d-41b0-b2c9-832b8f4f5fcf" CreationDate="2015-05-04T13:22:25.673" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1440" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="433" RevisionGUID="d432e570-cae1-43ea-9a4f-082381596713" CreationDate="2015-05-04T13:22:25.673" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1441" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="430" RevisionGUID="625f1c7e-f4e7-4ec1-9ca6-f8c73df40ad7" CreationDate="2015-05-04T13:29:45.850" UserId="111" Comment="not sure his first name is indeed Wladimir as in the article he signed Waldemar" Text="In [his 1907 essay on Chukchi mythology](http://digitallibrary.amnh.org/dspace/bitstream/2246/5745/5/M11Pt02.pdf), Bogoraz describe their cosmogony as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to the cosmogonical beliefs of the Chukchee, there are several worlds situated one above another, in such a manner that the ground of one forms the sky of the one below. The number of these worlds is stated as five, seven, or nine. These worlds are arranged symmetrically above and below the earth, each of the lower worlds having a corresponding one above it.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [...]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; All these worlds, as said before, are joined by holes situated under the Polar Star. Shamans and spirits while going from one world to another slip through these holes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And earlier, while describing the star itself:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The most important is the Polar Star, which is called in the Chukchee language Ilu'kalin e'nier or Ilu'k-e'iner (&quot;motionless star&quot;), or Aglqe'p- e'ner (&quot;nail star&quot;), or Unp-e'nier (&quot;the pole-stuck star&quot;). This latter name occurs throughout Asia. It suggests the existence of a simile in which all other stars move around the Polar Star as horses or reindeer move around a pole to which they are tethered. The house of the Polar Star stands in the zenith. Directly under it is a hole through which it is possible to pass from one world to another. Through a series of these holes the Polar Star can be seen in al the lower and higher worlds, while the other constellations change with the diferent worlds. Carrying this idea further, the house of the Polar Star is supposed to be higher than that of any other star. It is made of a material similar to ice, and on the top of it is set the beacon - lamp of the star.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Chukchi being a people living in the arctic Siberia, one would indeed expect the North Star to be central to their cosmogony. Hence my question: did the other people indigenous to the Arctic develop similar cosmogonical beliefs surrounding the North Star?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1442" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="219" RevisionGUID="741923ac-6a57-4183-bcd9-6b1ec97e80cc" CreationDate="2015-05-04T14:00:27.323" UserId="111" Comment="tried to make the text more readable" Text="Roman and Greek mythologies and religions are intertwined because of the occupation of Greece by the Roman empire.  &#xD;&#xA;But are there any occurrence of two different cultures having similarities in their mythologies but no known interactions by which they could have transferred their mythologies to each other?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1443" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="219" RevisionGUID="741923ac-6a57-4183-bcd9-6b1ec97e80cc" CreationDate="2015-05-04T14:00:27.323" Comment="Proposed by 111 approved by 29, 110 edit id of 106" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1444" PostHistoryTypeId="11" PostId="219" RevisionGUID="f89b8f19-602d-4f2b-a581-a8102e92c04a" CreationDate="2015-05-04T14:14:53.150" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:32,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;James Jenkins&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:110,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;John Demetriou&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:31,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Robert Longson&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:79,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ero Sɘnnin&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="1446" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="427" RevisionGUID="de85d28e-1228-405c-bbe3-4dbc838d292f" CreationDate="2015-05-04T14:21:12.037" UserId="29" Comment="added 69 characters in body" Text="For questions about Homer, the author of the poems Iliad and Odyssey." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1447" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="427" RevisionGUID="de85d28e-1228-405c-bbe3-4dbc838d292f" CreationDate="2015-05-04T14:21:12.037" Comment="Proposed by 29 approved by 79, 57 edit id of 103" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1448" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="429" RevisionGUID="78a7c774-55db-4ac7-b272-cb55d87aa48e" CreationDate="2015-05-04T14:21:20.440" UserId="29" Comment="added 65 characters in body" Text="A god of Norse mythology associated with thunders and lightnings." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1449" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="429" RevisionGUID="78a7c774-55db-4ac7-b272-cb55d87aa48e" CreationDate="2015-05-04T14:21:20.440" Comment="Proposed by 29 approved by 79, 57 edit id of 104" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1450" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="424" RevisionGUID="c42bdff7-dbb8-4ffd-a22d-e82ef0866e7c" CreationDate="2015-05-04T14:21:30.410" UserId="29" Comment="added 47 characters in body" Text="For questions about Japanese myths and legends." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1451" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="424" RevisionGUID="c42bdff7-dbb8-4ffd-a22d-e82ef0866e7c" CreationDate="2015-05-04T14:21:30.410" Comment="Proposed by 29 approved by 79, 57 edit id of 102" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1452" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="434" RevisionGUID="9b1b4c3e-5cff-4332-bfb3-52860c817043" CreationDate="2015-05-04T14:24:43.843" UserId="51" Text="According to Kabbalah mysticism, [The Tree of Life][1] is the developed symbol which can be used as a full model of reality, using the tree to depict a map of Creation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A Tree of Life consist 10 sephiroth (11th is hidden) and 22 paths (22 Hebrew letters) - 3 horizontal, 7 vertical and 12 diagonals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![A Tree of Life with 10 sephiroth and 22 paths - 3 horizontal, 7 vertical. 12 diagonals. This version appears as a diagram in R. Moses Cordovero's Pardes Rimonim, and is the preferred form in modern Jewish Kabbalah.][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Source and image credits: [The Tree of Life at Hermetic Kaballah][3]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Renaissance occult philosophy, Cornelius Agrippa provides tables of correspondences (&quot;scales&quot;) for all the numbers up to twelve. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are close relationship to the ancient hermetic notion of sympathies and harmonic connection via a higher world of the divine essences.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These are the dimensions of Creation and the fundamental building blocks of our reality.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We can divide them into the following groups:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Motion:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Time (Physical motion).&#xD;&#xA;2. Feeling (Emotional motion).&#xD;&#xA;3. Thought (Mental motion).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Space:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. Spherical separation (Sphere).&#xD;&#xA;5. Circular separation (Diameter).&#xD;&#xA;6. Linear separation (Radius).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Energy (All matter is energy):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;7. Electric energy (the building block of physical matter).&#xD;&#xA;8. Magnetic energy (the primal field of the universe).&#xD;&#xA;9. Etheric energy (Life energy, traditionally referred as [Prana][4] or [Chi][5]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Consciousness of the Creator:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;10. Infinite Universes.&#xD;&#xA;11. Mother Creator principle.&#xD;&#xA;12. Father Creator principle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Our life on Earth functions within first 3 by 3 matrix (9 intertwined dimensions).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_life_(Kabbalah)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/vifJVm.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.digital-brilliance.com/themes/tol.php&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prana&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1456" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="434" RevisionGUID="94190cd2-be18-437e-a3d9-e577b71036e5" CreationDate="2015-05-04T14:42:37.183" UserId="51" Comment="added 123 characters in body" Text="According to Kabbalah mysticism, [The Tree of Life][1] is the developed symbol which can be used as a full model of reality, using the tree to depict a map of Creation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A Tree of Life consist 10 sephiroth (11th is hidden) and 22 paths (22 Hebrew letters) - 3 horizontal, 7 vertical and 12 diagonals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![A Tree of Life with 10 sephiroth and 22 paths - 3 horizontal, 7 vertical. 12 diagonals. This version appears as a diagram in R. Moses Cordovero's Pardes Rimonim, and is the preferred form in modern Jewish Kabbalah.][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Source and image credits: [The Tree of Life at Hermetic Kaballah][3]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Renaissance occult philosophy, Cornelius Agrippa provides tables of correspondences (&quot;scales&quot;) for all the numbers up to twelve. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are close relationship to the ancient hermetic notion of sympathies and harmonic connection via a higher world of the divine essences.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These are the dimensions of Creation and the fundamental building blocks of our reality.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We can divide them into the following groups:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Motion:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Time (Physical motion).&#xD;&#xA;2. Feeling (Emotional motion).&#xD;&#xA;3. Thought (Mental motion).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Space:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. Spherical separation (Sphere).&#xD;&#xA;5. Circular separation (Diameter).&#xD;&#xA;6. Linear separation (Radius).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Energy (All matter is energy):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;7. Electric energy (the building block of physical matter).&#xD;&#xA;8. Magnetic energy (the primal field of the universe).&#xD;&#xA;9. Etheric energy (Life energy, traditionally referred as [Prana][4] or [Chi][5]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Consciousness of the Creator:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;10. Infinite Universes.&#xD;&#xA;11. Mother Creator principle.&#xD;&#xA;12. Father Creator principle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Our life on Earth functions within first 3 by 3 matrix (9 intertwined dimensions).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Source: [The 12 dimensions of Creation.][6]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_life_(Kabbalah)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/vifJVm.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.digital-brilliance.com/themes/tol.php&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prana&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://robertjrgraham.com/the-12-dimensions-of-creation/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1457" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="436" RevisionGUID="f5dabdda-a50c-44a8-911b-6733b24329cb" CreationDate="2015-05-04T14:50:14.700" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1458" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="437" RevisionGUID="dfcb68a5-9959-4813-b2a5-496e293e2b09" CreationDate="2015-05-04T14:50:14.700" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1459" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="219" RevisionGUID="bde90c0b-e2e2-4ff6-b073-bbeb3e5443f2" CreationDate="2015-05-04T14:51:02.827" UserId="110" Comment="added 105 characters in body" Text="Roman and Greek mythologies and religions are intertwined because of the occupation of Greece by the Roman empire.  &#xD;&#xA;But are there any occurrence of two different cultures having similarities in their mythologies but no known interactions by which they could have transferred their mythologies to each other?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**EDIT** By cultural interactions I mean recorded historical events and not just people visiting etc." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1460" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="438" RevisionGUID="11df1450-11bf-44cd-9016-d51d67ad0947" CreationDate="2015-05-04T14:51:56.687" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1461" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="439" RevisionGUID="d034b56a-21ac-4c1b-913e-781ffdd3324d" CreationDate="2015-05-04T14:51:56.687" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1462" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="440" RevisionGUID="795210b8-449f-4f1b-89f7-20a2e23738f5" CreationDate="2015-05-04T14:53:46.983" UserId="29" Text="The number twelve is considered holy by many religions and in many circumstances. Usually, it's never argued why it is such an important number, but it's present in many holy texts, accompanying important figures. Since the quote in the question is mine, I'd like to insist that there is not clear evidence as to why it is an important number from a religious aspect. Yes, once can judge from the multiple occurrences that it is an important number, but the mythological texts never go into details as to why it is so.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's usually explained in a mathematical essence. The number `10` is quite important nowadays due to the use of the `decimal` system. Since the use of the [Duodecimal][1] and [Sexagesimal][2] systems was widespread at the time, 12 was considered to have an important meaning on a mathematical aspect.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, it is wrong to treat the number `12` as... `12`.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* 10 in the duodecimal system&#xD;&#xA;* C in the hexadecimal system&#xD;&#xA;* 1100 in the binary system and so on.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and so on. We should rather focus on properties which are independent of the numerical system.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* First number with six divisors&#xD;&#xA;* 12 hours a day, 12 hours a night, 12 months etc (actually attributed to the use of the duodecimal system) &#xD;&#xA;* Considered a divine number by mathematicians such as Pythagoras.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duodecimal&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexagesimal" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1463" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="441" RevisionGUID="0d58020c-2c6c-4b90-b939-dde7ea989d5d" CreationDate="2015-05-04T14:55:52.890" UserId="87" Text="In the story of Ragnarok, [Lif and Lifthrasir survive by hiding in Yggdrasil](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/382/87), and presumably they go on to repopulate the world after all the fighting is over.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any other cultures whose end-of-the-world myths explicitly include some survivors who could potentially rebuild civilization?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1464" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="441" RevisionGUID="0d58020c-2c6c-4b90-b939-dde7ea989d5d" CreationDate="2015-05-04T14:55:52.890" UserId="87" Text="Are there any apocalypse myths other than Ragnarok in which some people survive to repopulate the world?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1465" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="441" RevisionGUID="0d58020c-2c6c-4b90-b939-dde7ea989d5d" CreationDate="2015-05-04T14:55:52.890" UserId="87" Text="|comparative|apocalypse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1466" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="441" RevisionGUID="3479b5fc-2f82-4f71-bb2a-78b89722ea77" CreationDate="2015-05-04T15:01:37.583" UserId="183" Comment="&quot;Ragnarok&quot; tag makes question more specific." Text="|comparative|apocalypse|ragnarok|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1467" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="441" RevisionGUID="3479b5fc-2f82-4f71-bb2a-78b89722ea77" CreationDate="2015-05-04T15:01:37.583" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 29, 87 edit id of 110" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1468" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="442" RevisionGUID="563fc042-736d-423d-b1d5-fde9a6b0466c" CreationDate="2015-05-04T15:02:11.123" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1469" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="443" RevisionGUID="23e41690-2424-418a-b19b-80bcd1d72da7" CreationDate="2015-05-04T15:02:11.123" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1470" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="444" RevisionGUID="e202051a-7720-424f-b753-3f029fef92f5" CreationDate="2015-05-04T15:03:13.977" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1471" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="445" RevisionGUID="60124acf-d3d8-4413-8fa8-b7a5ed26308b" CreationDate="2015-05-04T15:03:13.977" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1472" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="446" RevisionGUID="b5406407-328f-46a8-a7fe-32a476c86328" CreationDate="2015-05-04T15:04:11.343" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1473" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="447" RevisionGUID="55385602-28e4-4d6a-8e79-9884533e6936" CreationDate="2015-05-04T15:04:11.343" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1474" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="437" RevisionGUID="395c5517-314a-4266-add0-edc0285fbf90" CreationDate="2015-05-04T15:48:12.343" UserId="26" Comment="added 77 characters in body" Text="For questions about faerie folk, a spirit people common in European folklore." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1475" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="437" RevisionGUID="395c5517-314a-4266-add0-edc0285fbf90" CreationDate="2015-05-04T15:48:12.343" Comment="Proposed by 26 approved by 55 edit id of 108" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1476" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="344" RevisionGUID="3b8f94bc-ad23-4eb9-86e5-c21aaee72852" CreationDate="2015-05-04T15:48:18.323" UserId="26" Comment="added 126 characters in body" Text="For questions about subjects and themes that appear in several mythologies, and the similarities and differences between them." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1477" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="344" RevisionGUID="3b8f94bc-ad23-4eb9-86e5-c21aaee72852" CreationDate="2015-05-04T15:48:18.323" Comment="Proposed by 26 approved by 29, 55 edit id of 107" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1478" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="448" RevisionGUID="705aa98d-2a5f-4d20-8f2c-d76dcec35bb1" CreationDate="2015-05-04T15:48:21.260" UserId="183" Text="There are many different accounts of the life of [Merlin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merlin), one of the noted magical figures in the tales of King Arthur. Some accounts do not cover the end of his life, while others state that he died at the hands of the Lady of the Lake or by Niviane, his lover.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How old was Merlin when he died? I'd like to focus on these two instances, as they are the most commonly cited myths which I have been able to find. The one source I have found is *Vulgate Merlin*, as explained [here](http://www.timelessmyths.com/arthurian/merlin.html#DeadMerlin), though it states that Niviane was also known as the Lady of the Lake - yet not the same as the Lady of the Lake who bore Excalibur to King Arthur!&lt;sup&gt;*&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;sup&gt;*This may lead to another question. . .&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1479" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="448" RevisionGUID="705aa98d-2a5f-4d20-8f2c-d76dcec35bb1" CreationDate="2015-05-04T15:48:21.260" UserId="183" Text="How old was Merlin when he died?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1480" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="448" RevisionGUID="705aa98d-2a5f-4d20-8f2c-d76dcec35bb1" CreationDate="2015-05-04T15:48:21.260" UserId="183" Text="|arthurian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1481" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="443" RevisionGUID="ec7ebcf1-83f8-413d-98e7-63e8a0beb104" CreationDate="2015-05-04T15:48:43.127" UserId="29" Comment="added 45 characters in body" Text="For question about Chinese myths and legends." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1482" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="443" RevisionGUID="ec7ebcf1-83f8-413d-98e7-63e8a0beb104" CreationDate="2015-05-04T15:48:43.127" Comment="Proposed by 29 approved by 55 edit id of 111" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1483" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="447" RevisionGUID="41aebc5c-0401-4c33-bd23-06a88b13525e" CreationDate="2015-05-04T15:48:46.030" UserId="29" Comment="added 60 characters in body" Text="For questions about myths and legends connected to Vampires." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1484" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="447" RevisionGUID="41aebc5c-0401-4c33-bd23-06a88b13525e" CreationDate="2015-05-04T15:48:46.030" Comment="Proposed by 29 approved by 55 edit id of 113" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1485" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="341" RevisionGUID="98eff3c9-4101-47c5-af81-a9533d3cfc58" CreationDate="2015-05-04T15:48:55.310" UserId="98" Comment="added 98 characters in body" Text="For questions about immortal beings that represent something in nature and have superhuman powers." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1486" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="341" RevisionGUID="98eff3c9-4101-47c5-af81-a9533d3cfc58" CreationDate="2015-05-04T15:48:55.310" Comment="Proposed by 98 approved by 108, 55 edit id of 72" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1487" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="433" RevisionGUID="9f222c45-0900-4bc6-9f4e-123662dc48bd" CreationDate="2015-05-04T15:50:42.380" UserId="29" Comment="added 77 characters in body" Text="For questions about beings known to combine human and super-human properties." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1488" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="433" RevisionGUID="9f222c45-0900-4bc6-9f4e-123662dc48bd" CreationDate="2015-05-04T15:50:42.380" Comment="Proposed by 29 approved by 26, 55 edit id of 105" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1489" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="449" RevisionGUID="31754fac-09d1-48ae-9dd1-37d9c0e7f8f1" CreationDate="2015-05-04T15:53:07.570" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1490" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="450" RevisionGUID="9a6be3cc-28ba-440e-b3b3-34a8be4de669" CreationDate="2015-05-04T15:53:07.570" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1491" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="451" RevisionGUID="34ac16c6-8ad7-4763-b49b-e687324636e5" CreationDate="2015-05-04T15:58:05.537" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1492" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="452" RevisionGUID="0f8c9f56-897c-486e-943f-3b50208597da" CreationDate="2015-05-04T15:58:05.537" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1493" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="453" RevisionGUID="23b18539-d9b7-4a53-b712-36bded7e0234" CreationDate="2015-05-04T15:59:51.763" UserId="171" Text="Yes. Many different cultures and mythologies depict really similar stories about floods. There are only a handful survivors of the flooding, who have to repopulate the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the Sumerian version of the myth, Enlil sends a flood to kills the too-numerous and yoo-noisy humans. The god Enki intervenes and warns the king to save his family and a collection of animals. Babylonians have a similar version of the myth in which a man called tnapishtim built a boat, took aboard his family and a selection of craftspeople and animals. The [list goes on][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]: http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Fi-Go/Floods.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1494" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="219" RevisionGUID="2ceb9237-3d03-433d-ba68-1e7cac26dab6" CreationDate="2015-05-04T16:11:39.843" UserId="110" Comment="added 602 characters in body" Text="Roman and Greek mythologies and religions are intertwined because of the occupation of Greece by the Roman empire.  &#xD;&#xA;But are there any occurrence of two different cultures having similarities in their mythologies but no known interactions by which they could have transferred their mythologies to each other?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**EDIT** By cultural interactions I mean recorded historical events and not just people visiting etc. By similarities I mean stuff the christian flood myth (Noah) and the Greek flood myth (Deucalion) which are similar stories and one influenced the other (or both are influenced by a third before them). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a few words, my question is are there any civilizations with similar stories in their mythology but with no historical record of one influencing the other or both being influenced by a third that predates them. (for example a has same story with b. If a derived from b or be derived from a then that is not what I want. If both a and b were derived from c, then again this is not what I want)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1496" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="219" RevisionGUID="c464f681-459f-44f5-83fa-a79b8d522907" CreationDate="2015-05-04T16:22:01.237" UserId="-1" Comment="104" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:18,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;El'endia Starman&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:42,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;femtoRgon&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:43,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Mr. Bultitude&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:183,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;HDE 226868&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:11,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;durron597&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="1498" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="257" RevisionGUID="73f8edbb-9579-474b-9c64-225df454a1f1" CreationDate="2015-05-04T16:29:34.750" UserId="29" Comment="added 19 characters in body" Text="In many religions, such as the Greeks, the number 12 is considered holy and sacred for many generations. There are 12 main gods in Greek mythology, Odin had 12 sons in Norse mythology, 12 disicples of Christ in Christinaity, and 12 Imams in the Islam religion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So why exactly is the number 12 considered sacred and holy by many religions?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: This [answer][1] by naltipar has inspired my question. He has said this, which deems my question unanswered as of now:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I have found no reference (and I believe there isn't any) as to why it is deemed a special number in a religious essence, apart from the fact that it had many mathematical properties, such as being the first number with six divisors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;   [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/146/why-were-there-exactly-12-olympian-gods" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1499" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="452" RevisionGUID="6c7b6d48-9ca8-4763-855a-1e76244587c5" CreationDate="2015-05-04T16:31:45.650" UserId="29" Comment="added 96 characters in body" Text="For questions linked to the area between Tigris and Euphrates, corresponding to modern-day Iraq." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1500" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="452" RevisionGUID="6c7b6d48-9ca8-4763-855a-1e76244587c5" CreationDate="2015-05-04T16:31:45.650" Comment="Proposed by 29 approved by 79, 26 edit id of 115" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1501" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="448" RevisionGUID="266fd33d-1d7b-4e50-ade7-3ce7b64f1dbf" CreationDate="2015-05-04T16:40:26.117" UserDisplayName="user93" Comment="new tag probably needed" Text="|arthurian|merlin|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1502" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="448" RevisionGUID="266fd33d-1d7b-4e50-ade7-3ce7b64f1dbf" CreationDate="2015-05-04T16:40:26.117" Comment="Proposed by 93 approved by 33, 29 edit id of 116" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1503" PostHistoryTypeId="8" PostId="257" RevisionGUID="90879055-2c32-4025-86cd-6d9cd56af39e" CreationDate="2015-05-04T16:41:35.070" UserId="98" Comment="Rollback to [57a3b07d-b99b-48ac-80be-1361dff1d26d]" Text="In many religions, such as the Greeks, the number 12 is considered holy and sacred for many generations. There are 12 main gods in Greek mythology, Odin had 12 sons in Norse mythology, 12 disicples of Christ in Christinaity, and 12 Imams in the Islam religion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So why exactly is the number 12 considered sacred and holy by many religions?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: This [answer][1] by naltipar has inspired my question. He has said this, which deems my question unanswered as of now:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I have found no reference (and I believe there isn't any) as to **why** it is deemed a special number, apart from the fact that it had many mathematical properties, such as being the first number with six divisors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;   [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/146/why-were-there-exactly-12-olympian-gods" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1504" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="454" RevisionGUID="e5851f55-3cb8-4a39-90a3-f5252a18710a" CreationDate="2015-05-04T17:12:16.640" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1505" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="455" RevisionGUID="5b164c00-02e1-4f7b-b823-e8c045ad2258" CreationDate="2015-05-04T17:12:16.640" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1506" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="450" RevisionGUID="3963894f-a6d2-40d5-92a3-0f5673036c65" CreationDate="2015-05-04T17:13:06.800" UserId="29" Comment="added 69 characters in body" Text="For questions about the mythology surrounding the Mayan civilization." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1507" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="450" RevisionGUID="3963894f-a6d2-40d5-92a3-0f5673036c65" CreationDate="2015-05-04T17:13:06.800" Comment="Proposed by 29 approved by 26, 38 edit id of 114" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1508" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="456" RevisionGUID="33423bfe-7287-4432-a1f1-7e881dd5a346" CreationDate="2015-05-04T17:13:26.590" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1509" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="457" RevisionGUID="7301dd2d-b7a3-409d-9a8a-2c77ff05010a" CreationDate="2015-05-04T17:13:26.590" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1510" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="457" RevisionGUID="c3a0dce8-0f7c-411f-aeca-8b94191d124b" CreationDate="2015-05-04T17:22:45.480" UserId="183" Comment="added 104 characters in body" Text="For questions about elements of mythology that exist or have counterparts in other systems of mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1511" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="457" RevisionGUID="c3a0dce8-0f7c-411f-aeca-8b94191d124b" CreationDate="2015-05-04T17:22:45.480" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 38, 79 edit id of 118" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1512" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="455" RevisionGUID="1909c2fd-fb5b-4168-af7d-caecd5e29c46" CreationDate="2015-05-04T17:30:15.410" UserId="183" Comment="added 95 characters in body" Text="For questions about living entities with no other classification (i.e. not gods, humans, etc.)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1513" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="455" RevisionGUID="1909c2fd-fb5b-4168-af7d-caecd5e29c46" CreationDate="2015-05-04T17:30:15.410" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 38, 79 edit id of 117" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1514" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="458" RevisionGUID="911ef859-541e-4ed2-94d4-97d07be01fbc" CreationDate="2015-05-04T17:52:00.593" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1515" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="459" RevisionGUID="7340ac06-134e-4407-a36a-6481117fd794" CreationDate="2015-05-04T17:52:00.593" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1516" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="460" RevisionGUID="38810f5e-4c77-4a37-9b7b-7267cbab042b" CreationDate="2015-05-04T17:53:18.420" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1517" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="461" RevisionGUID="0e00e7ac-2293-4fc5-a4ae-5163ab4c1cc1" CreationDate="2015-05-04T17:53:18.420" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1518" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="459" RevisionGUID="9237c67e-becd-4be9-ab24-f1ebb7a6ffd6" CreationDate="2015-05-04T18:03:30.547" UserId="183" Comment="added 145 characters in body" Text="For questions about the mythology of the original occupants of North and South America, excluding Europeans and other peoples coming afterwards. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1519" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="459" RevisionGUID="9237c67e-becd-4be9-ab24-f1ebb7a6ffd6" CreationDate="2015-05-04T18:03:30.547" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 29, 26 edit id of 119" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1520" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="461" RevisionGUID="a8ecb177-f5c3-4a23-8040-3b71e5ce2850" CreationDate="2015-05-04T18:03:37.453" UserId="183" Comment="added 200 characters in body" Text="For questions about the mythology of people originally occupying the regions in or about Oregon, Seattle, British Columbia, and other regions in the northwestern United States and southwestern Canada." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1521" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="461" RevisionGUID="a8ecb177-f5c3-4a23-8040-3b71e5ce2850" CreationDate="2015-05-04T18:03:37.453" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 29, 26 edit id of 120" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1522" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="462" RevisionGUID="3dd29c7a-20e0-4bf2-9c1c-1801a0577679" CreationDate="2015-05-04T18:22:25.773" UserId="151" Text="In Greek mythology there is Deucalion and Pyrrha&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[In Greek mythology, D][1]eucalion (Greek: Δευκαλίων) was the son of Prometheus; ancient sources name his mother as Clymene, Hesione, or Pronoia.[1] The anger of Zeus was ignited by the hubris of the Pelasgians, so he decided to put an end to the Bronze Age. Lycaon, the king of Arcadia, had sacrificed a boy to Zeus, who was appalled by this savage offering. Zeus unleashed a deluge, so that the rivers ran in torrents and the sea flooded the coastal plain, engulfed the foothills with spray, and washed everything clean. Deucalion, with the aid of his father Prometheus, was saved from this deluge by building a chest.[2] Like the Biblical Noah and the Mesopotamian counterpart Utnapishtim, he uses his device to survive the deluge with his wife, Pyrrha.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; ....&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Once the deluge was over and the couple had given thanks to Zeus, Deucalion (said in several of the sources to have been aged 82 at the time) consulted an oracle of Themis about how to repopulate the earth. He was told to cover your head and throw the bones of your mother behind your shoulder. Deucalion and Pyrrha understood that &quot;mother&quot; is Gaia, the mother of all living things, and the &quot;bones&quot; to be rocks. They threw the rocks behind their shoulders and the stones formed people. Pyrrha's became women; Deucalion's became men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Deucalion and Pyrrha had at least two children, Hellen and Protogenea, and possibly a third, Amphictyon (who is autochthonous in other traditions).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deucalion" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1524" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="453" RevisionGUID="185d2f29-126b-4063-a0ba-7bb24c092ca3" CreationDate="2015-05-04T19:11:38.513" UserId="18" Comment="Corrected two typos. Added a third example to exceed 6-character edit limit." Text="Yes. Many different cultures and mythologies depict really similar stories about floods. There are only a handful survivors of the flooding, who have to repopulate the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the Sumerian version of the myth, Enlil sends a flood to kills the too-numerous and too-noisy humans. The god Enki intervenes and warns the king to save his family and a collection of animals. Babylonians have a similar version of the myth in which a man called Tnapishtim built a boat, took aboard his family and a selection of craftspeople and animals. The well-known Judeo-Christian version of the myth has Noah build an ark, take aboard seven family members and representatives of all land animals to survive a global flood. The [list goes on][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]: http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Fi-Go/Floods.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1525" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="453" RevisionGUID="185d2f29-126b-4063-a0ba-7bb24c092ca3" CreationDate="2015-05-04T19:11:38.513" Comment="Proposed by 18 approved by 29, 171 edit id of 122" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1526" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="463" RevisionGUID="da8122b2-3788-4f85-87f1-92975f0b5911" CreationDate="2015-05-04T19:39:57.130" UserId="171" Text="I am a little bit confused by the way the terms &quot;giant&quot;, &quot;frost giant&quot;, &quot;jotun&quot; (or _jötunn_), &quot;ettin&quot; and &quot;troll&quot; seem to overlap in norse mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They usually refer to what we could understood as a race, but then they are unconsistenly depicted as really ugly or really beautiful (I understand how good or evil character could vary between individuals, but I''m confused that the physical appearance is not consistent for the whole &quot;race&quot;). The word &quot;giant&quot; would make you thing that they were of a greater size (greater than average, being this &quot;grater than human size&quot; or &quot;greater than god/Æsir /Vanir size&quot;), but this doesn't seem to be a problem sometimes in order to interact (intermarrying, procreating, etc.) with other beings. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Could somebody clarify if these are different classes of beings, the same with different names or clarify what they were or &quot;embodied&quot; (like, giant or troll is another way of depict a race as &quot;evil&quot;)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1527" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="463" RevisionGUID="da8122b2-3788-4f85-87f1-92975f0b5911" CreationDate="2015-05-04T19:39:57.130" UserId="171" Text="What is the difference between giants, Jotuns and trolls in norse mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1528" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="463" RevisionGUID="da8122b2-3788-4f85-87f1-92975f0b5911" CreationDate="2015-05-04T19:39:57.130" UserId="171" Text="|norse|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1529" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="463" RevisionGUID="94cc4d23-13af-46fe-baec-ac1408799aac" CreationDate="2015-05-04T19:59:57.867" UserId="18" Comment="Spelling, grammar." Text="I am a little bit confused by the way the terms &quot;giant&quot;, &quot;frost giant&quot;, &quot;jotun&quot; (or _jötunn_), &quot;ettin&quot; and &quot;troll&quot; seem to overlap in norse mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They usually refer to what we could understood as a race, but then they are inconsistenly depicted as really ugly or really beautiful (I understand how good or evil character could vary between individuals, but I''m confused that the physical appearance is not consistent for the whole &quot;race&quot;). The word &quot;giant&quot; would make you think that they were of a greater size (greater than average, being this &quot;greater than human size&quot; or &quot;greater than god/Æsir/Vanir size&quot;), but this doesn't seem to be a problem sometimes in order to interact (intermarrying, procreating, etc.) with other beings. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Could somebody clarify if these are different classes of beings, the same class with different names, or clarify what they were an &quot;embodiment&quot; of (like, giant or troll is another way of depict a race as &quot;evil&quot;)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1530" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="463" RevisionGUID="94cc4d23-13af-46fe-baec-ac1408799aac" CreationDate="2015-05-04T19:59:57.867" Comment="Proposed by 18 approved by -1 edit id of 123" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1531" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="463" RevisionGUID="91e2948e-aa98-463d-b408-bc59caf4b0f0" CreationDate="2015-05-04T19:59:57.867" UserId="29" Comment="Spelling, grammar. " Text="I am a little bit confused by the way the terms `giant`, `frost giant`, `jotun` (or _jötunn_), `ettin` and `troll` seem to overlap in Norse mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They usually refer to what we could understood as a race, but then they are inconsistently depicted as really ugly or really beautiful (I understand how good or evil character could vary between individuals, but I'm confused that the physical appearance is not consistent for the whole &quot;race&quot;). The word &quot;giant&quot; would make you think that they were of a greater size (greater than average, being this &quot;greater than human size&quot; or &quot;greater than god/Æsir/Vanir size&quot;), but this doesn't seem to be a problem sometimes in order to interact (intermarrying, procreating, etc.) with other beings. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Could somebody clarify if these are different classes of beings, the same class with different names, or clarify what they were an &quot;embodiment&quot; of (like, giant or troll is another way of depict a race as &quot;evil&quot;)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1533" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="394" RevisionGUID="7fa7b8a8-8d44-475f-97bc-eb04b964e25e" CreationDate="2015-05-04T20:10:33.123" UserId="108" Comment="added 300 characters in body" Text="It *actually* was a gradual process. It was primarily driven by his personal popularity in a society where [ancestor worship has long been an integral element](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancestor_veneration_in_China). Moreso than his fame as a general, his personality traits (loyalty, bravery, honesty) appealed to traditional Chinese sensibilities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Among the general population, Liu Bei and Guan Yu have set a more significant moral standard than Confucius or Mencius.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Yong, Jin, and Daisaku Ikeda. C*ompassionate Light in Asia: A Dialogue.* IB Tauris, 2013.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These factors led to his popularity steadily increasing, before he really became a deity per se (as opposed to a folk hero venerated in the tradition of ancestor worship). So that by the [Song Dynasty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_dynasty), the bureaucrat-author Hao Jing wrote that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 其英靈義烈遍天下，故所在廟祀，福善禍惡，神威赫然，人咸畏而敬之，而燕、趙、荊、楚爲尤篤。郡國州縣、鄉邑間井皆有廟。&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *(rough translation)* His righteousness and strength of character is known throughout the world. Hence his temple brings fortune and wards off disaster, and people respect his might. The provinces of Yan, Zhao, Jin and Chu are particularly pious. Every county, province, city and village has his temples.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Between the Song and [Yuan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuan_dynasty) dynasties, a tradition of [historical fiction](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_fiction#10-18th-century) flourished in China. The [Three Kingdoms era](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Kingdoms) from which Guan Yu hailed were one of [the most popular topics](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_of_the_Three_Kingdoms), and this greatly aided the spread of his fame.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is well known that the spread of the worship of Guan Yu as a folk deity beyond the confines of sectarian religion was communicated in the vernacular novels and plays of the Song-Yuan transition.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Duara, Prasenjit. *The Global and Regional in China’s Nation-Formation.* Routledge, 2008.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore, when he received his imperial (divine) title during the Ming Dynasty, it was already after centuries of popularity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For references on the [deification process described previously](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/revisions/394/3), see: `关羽崇拜硏究 by 蔡东洲 &amp; 文廷海`" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1535" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="464" RevisionGUID="27370047-3748-4d0d-b52c-5992b273c000" CreationDate="2015-05-04T20:18:27.563" UserId="42" Text="As I understand it, it was common practice for a playwright to retell a well-known story with the details changed to suit the playwright's needs.  A tidy way to avoid a lot of tedious exposition. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Antigone, this leads to some significantly different endings:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In Sophocles play, she is imprisoned and hangs herself, Creon has a change of heart too late, and  Haemon commits suicide. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In Euripides play, Dionysus intercedes, and everyone lives happily ever after. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In Hyginus' interpretation, Antigone is hidden away, and discovered years later, when she is finally executed by Haemon, in spite of intercession from Heracles. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So artistic license aside, is there a canonical ending to the myth?  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1536" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="464" RevisionGUID="27370047-3748-4d0d-b52c-5992b273c000" CreationDate="2015-05-04T20:18:27.563" UserId="42" Text="Is there a canonical ending to the story of Antigone?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1537" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="464" RevisionGUID="27370047-3748-4d0d-b52c-5992b273c000" CreationDate="2015-05-04T20:18:27.563" UserId="42" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1538" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="445" RevisionGUID="15c123e0-b63e-46b3-adc1-215aaa215f59" CreationDate="2015-05-04T20:39:26.570" UserId="183" Comment="added 110 characters in body" Text="For questions about stories and myths of the religion based around Jesus Christ, the son of the Christian God." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1539" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="445" RevisionGUID="15c123e0-b63e-46b3-adc1-215aaa215f59" CreationDate="2015-05-04T20:39:26.570" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 79, 38 edit id of 121" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1540" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="440" RevisionGUID="cc5cc40d-112c-4662-b65c-7a365149ad69" CreationDate="2015-05-04T20:51:44.997" UserId="29" Comment="deleted 10 characters in body" Text="The number twelve is considered holy by many religions and in many circumstances. Usually, it's never argued why it is such an important number, but it's present in many holy texts, accompanying important figures. Since the quote in the question is mine, I'd like to insist that there is not clear evidence as to why it is an important number from a religious aspect. Yes, once can judge from the multiple occurrences that it is an important number, but the mythological texts never go into details as to why it is so.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's usually explained in a mathematical essence. The number `10` is quite important nowadays due to the use of the `decimal` system. Since the use of the [Duodecimal][1] and [Sexagesimal][2] systems was widespread at the time, 12 was considered to have an important meaning on a mathematical aspect.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, it is wrong to treat the number `12` as... `12`.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* 10 in the duodecimal system&#xD;&#xA;* C in the hexadecimal system&#xD;&#xA;* 1100 in the binary system &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and so on. We should rather focus on properties which are independent of the numerical system.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* First number with six divisors&#xD;&#xA;* 12 hours a day, 12 hours a night, 12 months etc (actually attributed to the use of the duodecimal system) &#xD;&#xA;* Considered a divine number by mathematicians such as Pythagoras.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duodecimal&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexagesimal" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1541" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="465" RevisionGUID="53ee9727-e365-4f1d-8ff7-3c07ec67aeb3" CreationDate="2015-05-04T21:14:05.107" UserId="11" Text="The Sophocles version is the canonical one, for several reasons:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. It was written first, and has been preserved in it's complete form.&#xD;&#xA;2. There is some disagreement about what actually happens in the Euripedes version. I hate to use Wikipedia as a source, but [this particular one](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigone_(Euripides)) is well cited, largely from [this text](http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674996250). I struggle to consider a source canonical if we can't figure out if Dionysus saved the day, or if they managed to marry secretly or what. It also appears to have been written slightly later.&#xD;&#xA;3. The Hyginus version is likely to have been derived not one step away from Sophocles version, but two: [there is another version written by Astydamas the Younger](http://books.google.com/books/p/harvard?oe=UTF-8&amp;id=0PQlAQAAIAAJ&amp;focus=searchwithinvolume&amp;q=astydamas), who is [at least 100 years farther in the future](http://www.theoi.com/Text/ListTragedians2.html):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;   &gt; differently from Sophocles that it cannot be considered for reconstructing Euripides (cf. Jebb in his Antigone p. xxxvii and Paton [1901], followed by most editors. It is now widely agreed that Hyginus and one or two 4th c. vases reflect the Antigone of Astydamas the Younger&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. Modern adaptations generally use the suicide ending. For instance, [this 1949 opera](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigonae) and [this 1961 movie](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055375/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1). &#xD;&#xA; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1542" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="466" RevisionGUID="16534949-ebb5-4519-b629-465697d00425" CreationDate="2015-05-04T21:32:55.757" UserId="198" Text="I searched alot but I couldn't find a creature that is similar to a Frost Pheonix or a frost bird like «Articuno» in pokemon for example.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's for a project (I like to keep real mythology in my story) and I want something as close as this as possible." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1543" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="466" RevisionGUID="16534949-ebb5-4519-b629-465697d00425" CreationDate="2015-05-04T21:32:55.757" UserId="198" Text="Is there a creature in mythology that is a Frost Bird, Frost Pheonix?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1544" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="466" RevisionGUID="16534949-ebb5-4519-b629-465697d00425" CreationDate="2015-05-04T21:32:55.757" UserId="198" Text="|cross-mythology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1545" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="467" RevisionGUID="0689d6b8-04e8-4bf6-a2ef-62c1bd88ef78" CreationDate="2015-05-04T21:33:58.320" UserId="38" Text="![enter image description here][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A mid-14th-century manuscript illustration showing Merlin building Stonehenge, an idea widely accepted until as late as the 16th century&#xD;&#xA;© British Library Board (Egerton MS 3028 fol 30)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The earliest surviving written references to Stonehenge date from the medieval period, and from the 14th century onwards there are increasing references to Stonehenge and drawings and paintings of it. At this time, Stonehenge was thought to have been built by the Romans. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;During the 12th century, Geoffrey of Monmouth [suggested that Stonehenge was built by none other than Merlin][2], under instructions from King Aurelian, Arthur's uncle, as a burial ground for a group of British nobles slaughtered by Saxons. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;If you are desirous,&quot; said Merlin, &quot;to honour the burying-place of these men with an everlasting monument, send for the Giant's Dance, which is in Killaraus, a mountain in Ireland. For there is a structure of stones there, which none of this age could raise, wthout a profound knowledge of the mechanical arts. They are stones of a vast magnitude and wonderful quality; and if they can be placed here, as they are there, round this spot of ground, they will stand forever.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This was an idea which gained popularity alongside much of Monmouth's writings. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aurelius ordered Merlin to erect round the burial-place the stones which he had brought from Ireland. Merlin obeyed the King's orders and put the stones up in a circle round the sepulchre, in exactly the same way as they had been arranged on Mount Killaraus in Ireland... &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can also read the [Legend of the Heel Stone here][3]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ad0NE.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/History_of_the_Kings_of_Britain/Book_8&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.math.nus.edu.sg/aslaksen/gem-projects/hm/0102-1-stonehenge/legends.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1546" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="468" RevisionGUID="4a9c5104-5ee9-458c-b335-3b3a05d02764" CreationDate="2015-05-04T21:36:19.227" UserId="65" Text="Geoffrey's account of Merlin Ambrosius' early life in the Historia Regum Britanniae is based on the story of Ambrosius in the Historia Brittonum.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Historia Regum Britanniae explains that when Merlin died he was &quot;400 Summers his Lord&quot; (His Lord would be Arthur and Arthur died in his 40's to 60's). So we can assume that Merlin was around 440-460 years old.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However his character was based on Myrddin Wyllt. Myrddin died at the age of 39." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1547" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="469" RevisionGUID="c47c9f6d-3714-4230-b5f4-ec56ee5f071f" CreationDate="2015-05-04T21:48:38.827" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1548" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="470" RevisionGUID="1cee490a-026c-4d70-8a35-c13f319de866" CreationDate="2015-05-04T21:48:38.827" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1549" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="471" RevisionGUID="a8862510-aeae-4588-8ae0-da221d2e0847" CreationDate="2015-05-04T21:57:44.710" UserId="98" Text="In Greek mythology, Cronus/Kronos and Gaea were the first gods to exist, Gaea the goddess to rule the Earth and Cronus the moon. When they first appeared, the Earth was already in existence. Gaea nor Cronus have created the Earth and seemingly, the Earth was created by something or someone before them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So how was the Earth created in Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1550" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="471" RevisionGUID="a8862510-aeae-4588-8ae0-da221d2e0847" CreationDate="2015-05-04T21:57:44.710" UserId="98" Text="To the Greeks, how was the Earth created?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1551" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="471" RevisionGUID="a8862510-aeae-4588-8ae0-da221d2e0847" CreationDate="2015-05-04T21:57:44.710" UserId="98" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1552" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="466" RevisionGUID="3e8c9cfe-6463-47e6-8563-3cf0ea5d7afc" CreationDate="2015-05-04T21:59:24.963" UserId="183" Comment="Edited tags; minor capitalization stuff." Text="I searched a lot but I couldn't find a creature that is similar to a frost phoenix or a frost bird like «Articuno» in Pokémon, for example.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's for a project (I like to keep real mythology in my story) and I want something as close as this as possible." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1553" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="466" RevisionGUID="3e8c9cfe-6463-47e6-8563-3cf0ea5d7afc" CreationDate="2015-05-04T21:59:24.963" UserId="183" Comment="Edited tags; minor capitalization stuff." Text="Is there a creature in mythology that is a frost bird or a frost phoenix?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1554" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="466" RevisionGUID="3e8c9cfe-6463-47e6-8563-3cf0ea5d7afc" CreationDate="2015-05-04T21:59:24.963" UserId="183" Comment="Edited tags; minor capitalization stuff." Text="|mythical-creatures|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1555" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="466" RevisionGUID="3e8c9cfe-6463-47e6-8563-3cf0ea5d7afc" CreationDate="2015-05-04T21:59:24.963" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 29, 198 edit id of 125" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1556" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="470" RevisionGUID="29900613-23c7-4899-bdf4-8a03330b0be5" CreationDate="2015-05-04T22:03:29.880" UserId="183" Comment="added 131 characters in body" Text="For questions about Merlin, a mythological medieval British mage who assisted King Arthur and the Knights of Camelot, among others." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1557" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="470" RevisionGUID="29900613-23c7-4899-bdf4-8a03330b0be5" CreationDate="2015-05-04T22:03:29.880" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 29, 38 edit id of 124" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1558" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="472" RevisionGUID="fa0a7204-d026-4a60-b728-ff0f575351e9" CreationDate="2015-05-04T22:04:16.027" UserId="183" Text="First, there was nothing. Absolutely nothing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the beginning there was only Chaos. Then out of the void appeared Erebus, the unknowable place where death dwells, and Night. All else was empty, silent, endless, dark. Then, Love was born bringing along the beginning of order. From Love emerged Light, followed by Gaea, the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;http://www.greekmythology.com/Myths/The_Myths/The_Creation/the_creation.html&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That's one version. Another explanation is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It all started when Chaos, Gaea (Earth) and Eros started sleeping with each other, leading to the Gods. So, in Greek mythology, the creation of the world starts with the creation of the different classes of Gods. In this instance, the term 'gods' refers to the characters that ruled the Earth (without necessarily possessing any divine attributes) until the 'real' Gods, the Olympians, came.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;http://www.greekmythology.com/Myths/The_Myths/The_Creation_II/the_creation_ii.html&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These are based in Hesiod's *Theogony*. I was able to find [an actual quote from it](http://www.theoi.com/greek-mythology/primeval-gods.html):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Declare to me from the beginning, you Mousai who dwell in the house of Olympos, and tell me which of them first came to be.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In truth at first Khaos (Air) came to be, but next wide-bosomed Gaia (Earth), the ever-sure foundation of all the deathless ones who hold the peaks of snowy Olympos, and dim Tartaros (the Pit) in the depth of the wide-pathed Earth, and Eros (Love), fairest among the deathless gods, who unnerves the limbs and overcomes the mind and wise counsels of all gods and all men within them. From Khaos (Air) came forth Erebos (Darkness) and black Nyx (Night); but of Nyx (Night) were born Aither (Light) and Hemera (Day), whom she conceived and bore from union in love with Erebos. And Gaia (Earth) first bore starry Ouranos (Heaven), equal to herself, to cover her on every side, and to be an ever-sure abiding-place for the blessed gods. And she brought forth long Ourea (Mountains), graceful haunts of the goddess Nymphai who dwell amongst the glens of the hills. She bore also the fruitless deep with his raging swell, Pontos (Sea), without sweet union of love.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But afterwards he [Gaia, Earth] lay with Ouranos (Heaven) and bare deep-swirling Okeanos, Koios and Krios and Hyperion and Iapetos, Theia and Rhea, Themis and Mnemosyne and gold-crowned Phoibe and lovely Tethys. After them was born Kronos the wily.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; -- Hesiod, Theogony 115&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aristophanes had a slightly different version:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At the beginning there was only Khaos (Air), Nyx (Night), dark Erebos (Darkness), and deep Tartaros (Hell's Pit). Ge (Earth), Aer (Air) and Ouranos (Heaven) had no existence. Firstly, black-winged Nyx (Night) laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebos (Darkness), and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros (Love) with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartaros (Hell-Pit) with dark Khaos (Air), winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race [the birds], which was the first to see the light. That of the Immortals did not exist until Eros had brought together all the ingredients of the world, and from their marriage Ouranos (Heaven), Okeanos (Ocean), Ge (Earth) and the imperishable race of blessed gods (Theoi) sprang into being.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; -- Aristophanes, Birds 685" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1559" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="467" RevisionGUID="f52a158a-ed4b-4d53-8a4a-087891b664bc" CreationDate="2015-05-04T22:05:04.723" UserId="38" Comment="added 14 characters in body" Text="![enter image description here][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A mid-14th-century manuscript illustration showing Merlin building Stonehenge, an idea widely accepted until as late as the 16th century&#xD;&#xA;© British Library Board (Egerton MS 3028 fol 30)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The earliest surviving written references to Stonehenge date from the medieval period, and from the 14th century onwards there are increasing references to Stonehenge and drawings and paintings of it. At this time, Stonehenge was thought to have been built by the Romans. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;During the 12th century, Geoffrey of Monmouth [suggested that Stonehenge was built by none other than Merlin][2], under instructions from King Aurelian, Arthur's uncle, as a burial ground for a group of British nobles slaughtered by Saxons. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;If you are desirous,&quot; said Merlin, &quot;to honour the burying-place of these men with an everlasting monument, send for the Giant's Dance, which is in Killaraus, a mountain in Ireland. For there is a structure of stones there, which none of this age could raise, wthout a profound knowledge of the mechanical arts. They are stones of a vast magnitude and wonderful quality; and if they can be placed here, as they are there, round this spot of ground, they will stand forever.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This was an idea which gained popularity alongside much of Monmouth's writings. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aurelius ordered Merlin to erect round the burial-place the stones which he had brought from Ireland. Merlin obeyed the King's orders and put the stones up in a circle round the sepulchre, in exactly the same way as they had been arranged on Mount Killaraus in Ireland... &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can also read the [Legend of the Heel Stone here][3]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ad0NE.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/History_of_the_Kings_of_Britain/Book_8&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.math.nus.edu.sg/aslaksen/gem-projects/hm/0102-1-stonehenge/legends.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1560" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="473" RevisionGUID="95835c6c-633e-42b5-8dd9-71516e733bf1" CreationDate="2015-05-04T22:10:14.177" UserId="29" Text="It's not made clear how the Earth was created. It just came to be, having been born after Chaos came into existence:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Citing [Wikipedia][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Η Γαία (αρχ. ελλ.: Γαῖα) προϋπήρχε με το Χάος και τον Έρωτα-Φάνη στη δημιουργία του Κόσμου.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Citing [Theogonia][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;First of all Chawos [Gap] came into being. But then Gaia broadchested, always the unshakable seat of all the immortals who hold the peaks of snowy Olympus,and dark Tartaros in the recesses of the wide-wayed earth, and Eros, the most beautiful among the immortal gods, loosener of limbs, who subdues the mind and prudent counsel in the chests of all gods and of all men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, once can suggest, that Earth was a deity which pre-existed, without an explanation of how it came to be.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%93%CE%B1%CE%AF%CE%B1_%28%CE%BC%CF%85%CE%B8%CE%BF%CE%BB%CE%BF%CE%B3%CE%AF%CE%B1%29&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.msu.edu/~tyrrell/theogon.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1561" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="472" RevisionGUID="360481c4-0254-4dd3-922b-20eaeedaaf2f" CreationDate="2015-05-04T22:12:30.927" UserId="183" Comment="added 145 characters in body" Text="First, there was nothing. Absolutely nothing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the beginning there was only Chaos. Then out of the void appeared Erebus, the unknowable place where death dwells, and Night. All else was empty, silent, endless, dark. Then, Love was born bringing along the beginning of order. From Love emerged Light, followed by Gaea, the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;http://www.greekmythology.com/Myths/The_Myths/The_Creation/the_creation.html&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That's one version. Another explanation is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It all started when Chaos, Gaea (Earth) and Eros started sleeping with each other, leading to the Gods. So, in Greek mythology, the creation of the world starts with the creation of the different classes of Gods. In this instance, the term 'gods' refers to the characters that ruled the Earth (without necessarily possessing any divine attributes) until the 'real' Gods, the Olympians, came.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;http://www.greekmythology.com/Myths/The_Myths/The_Creation_II/the_creation_ii.html&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These are based in Hesiod's *Theogony*. I was able to find [an actual quote from it](http://www.theoi.com/greek-mythology/primeval-gods.html):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Declare to me from the beginning, you Mousai who dwell in the house of Olympos, and tell me which of them first came to be.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In truth at first Khaos (Air) came to be, but next wide-bosomed Gaia (Earth), the ever-sure foundation of all the deathless ones who hold the peaks of snowy Olympos, and dim Tartaros (the Pit) in the depth of the wide-pathed Earth, and Eros (Love), fairest among the deathless gods, who unnerves the limbs and overcomes the mind and wise counsels of all gods and all men within them. From Khaos (Air) came forth Erebos (Darkness) and black Nyx (Night); but of Nyx (Night) were born Aither (Light) and Hemera (Day), whom she conceived and bore from union in love with Erebos. And Gaia (Earth) first bore starry Ouranos (Heaven), equal to herself, to cover her on every side, and to be an ever-sure abiding-place for the blessed gods. And she brought forth long Ourea (Mountains), graceful haunts of the goddess Nymphai who dwell amongst the glens of the hills. She bore also the fruitless deep with his raging swell, Pontos (Sea), without sweet union of love.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But afterwards he [Gaia, Earth] lay with Ouranos (Heaven) and bare deep-swirling Okeanos, Koios and Krios and Hyperion and Iapetos, Theia and Rhea, Themis and Mnemosyne and gold-crowned Phoibe and lovely Tethys. After them was born Kronos the wily.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; -- Hesiod, Theogony 115&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aristophanes had a slightly different version:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At the beginning there was only Khaos (Air), Nyx (Night), dark Erebos (Darkness), and deep Tartaros (Hell's Pit). Ge (Earth), Aer (Air) and Ouranos (Heaven) had no existence. Firstly, black-winged Nyx (Night) laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebos (Darkness), and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros (Love) with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartaros (Hell-Pit) with dark Khaos (Air), winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race [the birds], which was the first to see the light. That of the Immortals did not exist until Eros had brought together all the ingredients of the world, and from their marriage Ouranos (Heaven), Okeanos (Ocean), Ge (Earth) and the imperishable race of blessed gods (Theoi) sprang into being.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; -- Aristophanes, Birds 685&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In both cases, Gaea is understood to be a personification of the Earth; the same goes for Chaos, Erebus/Erebos, Eros, and many of the others." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1562" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="473" RevisionGUID="34e866c4-13c1-44d1-b6f0-1c316e86ea06" CreationDate="2015-05-04T22:14:44.703" UserId="29" Comment="added 80 characters in body" Text="It's not made clear how the Earth was created. It just came to be, having been born after Chaos came into existence:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Citing [Wikipedia][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Η Γαία (αρχ. ελλ.: Γαῖα) προϋπήρχε με το Χάος και τον Έρωτα-Φάνη στη δημιουργία του Κόσμου.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Earth pre-existed with Chaos and Eros (Love) in the creation of the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Citing [Theogonia][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;First of all Chawos [Gap] came into being. But then Gaia broadchested, always the unshakable seat of all the immortals who hold the peaks of snowy Olympus,and dark Tartaros in the recesses of the wide-wayed earth, and Eros, the most beautiful among the immortal gods, loosener of limbs, who subdues the mind and prudent counsel in the chests of all gods and of all men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, once can suggest, that Earth was a deity which pre-existed, without an explanation of how it came to be.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%93%CE%B1%CE%AF%CE%B1_%28%CE%BC%CF%85%CE%B8%CE%BF%CE%BB%CE%BF%CE%B3%CE%AF%CE%B1%29&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.msu.edu/~tyrrell/theogon.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1563" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="467" RevisionGUID="accfb95a-b20f-4301-8ab3-12a8e4f41816" CreationDate="2015-05-04T22:21:26.747" UserId="38" Comment="edited body" Text="![enter image description here][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A mid-14th-century manuscript illustration showing Merlin building Stonehenge, an idea widely accepted until as late as the 16th century&#xD;&#xA;© British Library Board (Egerton MS 3028 fol 30)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The earliest surviving written references to Stonehenge date from the medieval period, and from the 14th century onwards there are increasing references to Stonehenge and drawings and paintings of it. At this time, Stonehenge was thought to have been built by the Romans. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;During the 12th century, Geoffrey of Monmouth [suggested that Stonehenge was built by none other than Merlin][2], under instructions from King Aurelius, Arthur's uncle, as a burial ground for a group of British nobles slaughtered by Saxons. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;If you are desirous,&quot; said Merlin, &quot;to honour the burying-place of these men with an everlasting monument, send for the Giant's Dance, which is in Killaraus, a mountain in Ireland. For there is a structure of stones there, which none of this age could raise, wthout a profound knowledge of the mechanical arts. They are stones of a vast magnitude and wonderful quality; and if they can be placed here, as they are there, round this spot of ground, they will stand forever.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This was an idea which gained popularity alongside much of Monmouth's writings. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aurelius ordered Merlin to erect round the burial-place the stones which he had brought from Ireland. Merlin obeyed the King's orders and put the stones up in a circle round the sepulchre, in exactly the same way as they had been arranged on Mount Killaraus in Ireland... &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can also read the [Legend of the Heel Stone here][3]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ad0NE.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/History_of_the_Kings_of_Britain/Book_8&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.math.nus.edu.sg/aslaksen/gem-projects/hm/0102-1-stonehenge/legends.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1564" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="474" RevisionGUID="d13843e3-d455-4e9b-8852-33ca37a3ff1d" CreationDate="2015-05-04T22:23:22.370" UserId="98" Text="&gt; In Norse mythology, Ragnarök is a series of future events, including a great battle foretold to ultimately result in the death of a number of major figures (including the gods Odin, Thor, Týr, Freyr, Heimdallr, and Loki), the occurrence of various natural disasters, and the subsequent submersion of the world in water. Afterward, the world will resurface anew and fertile, the surviving and returning gods will meet, and the world will be repopulated by two human survivors . Ragnarök is an important event in the Norse canon, and has been the subject of scholarly discourse and theory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the end of this prophercy, it stated that two surviving humans will repopulate the Earth while the remaing gods will meet with each other and do something, like helping with the repopulation of the human race or something like that.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what exactly do the remaining gods and two humans do after Ragnarök?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1565" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="474" RevisionGUID="d13843e3-d455-4e9b-8852-33ca37a3ff1d" CreationDate="2015-05-04T22:23:22.370" UserId="98" Text="What happens after Ragnarök" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1566" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="474" RevisionGUID="d13843e3-d455-4e9b-8852-33ca37a3ff1d" CreationDate="2015-05-04T22:23:22.370" UserId="98" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1567" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="474" RevisionGUID="32fdeb8e-0553-42f3-be03-f05a2cdc82e4" CreationDate="2015-05-04T22:27:39.873" UserId="183" Comment="added 72 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="&gt; In Norse mythology, Ragnarök is a series of future events, including a great battle foretold to ultimately result in the death of a number of major figures (including the gods Odin, Thor, Týr, Freyr, Heimdallr, and Loki), the occurrence of various natural disasters, and the subsequent submersion of the world in water. Afterward, the world will resurface anew and fertile, the surviving and returning gods will meet, and the world will be repopulated by two human survivors . Ragnarök is an important event in the Norse canon, and has been the subject of scholarly discourse and theory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar%C3%B6k)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the end of this prophercy, it states that two surviving humans will repopulate the Earth while the remaing gods will meet with each other and do something, like helping with the repopulation of the human race or something like that.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what exactly do the remaining gods and two humans do after Ragnarök?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1568" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="474" RevisionGUID="32fdeb8e-0553-42f3-be03-f05a2cdc82e4" CreationDate="2015-05-04T22:27:39.873" UserId="183" Comment="added 72 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="What happens after Ragnarök?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1569" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="474" RevisionGUID="32fdeb8e-0553-42f3-be03-f05a2cdc82e4" CreationDate="2015-05-04T22:27:39.873" UserId="183" Comment="added 72 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|norse|ragnarok|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1570" PostHistoryTypeId="8" PostId="474" RevisionGUID="495bccae-49a8-4191-972e-20a6d83ca67a" CreationDate="2015-05-04T22:30:21.697" UserId="98" Comment="Rollback to [d13843e3-d455-4e9b-8852-33ca37a3ff1d]" Text="&gt; In Norse mythology, Ragnarök is a series of future events, including a great battle foretold to ultimately result in the death of a number of major figures (including the gods Odin, Thor, Týr, Freyr, Heimdallr, and Loki), the occurrence of various natural disasters, and the subsequent submersion of the world in water. Afterward, the world will resurface anew and fertile, the surviving and returning gods will meet, and the world will be repopulated by two human survivors . Ragnarök is an important event in the Norse canon, and has been the subject of scholarly discourse and theory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the end of this prophercy, it stated that two surviving humans will repopulate the Earth while the remaing gods will meet with each other and do something, like helping with the repopulation of the human race or something like that.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what exactly do the remaining gods and two humans do after Ragnarök?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1571" PostHistoryTypeId="7" PostId="474" RevisionGUID="495bccae-49a8-4191-972e-20a6d83ca67a" CreationDate="2015-05-04T22:30:21.697" UserId="98" Comment="Rollback to [d13843e3-d455-4e9b-8852-33ca37a3ff1d]" Text="What happens after Ragnarök" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1572" PostHistoryTypeId="9" PostId="474" RevisionGUID="495bccae-49a8-4191-972e-20a6d83ca67a" CreationDate="2015-05-04T22:30:21.697" UserId="98" Comment="Rollback to [d13843e3-d455-4e9b-8852-33ca37a3ff1d]" Text="|norse|" />
  <row Id="1573" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="474" RevisionGUID="fd51cac2-3ae6-4364-beb6-309f7a5e208c" CreationDate="2015-05-04T22:30:42.863" UserId="98" Comment="edited title" Text="What happens after Ragnarök?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1574" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="431" RevisionGUID="7ae24643-d2b5-4773-b160-aaf8ad5f16f1" CreationDate="2015-05-04T22:31:54.870" UserId="51" Comment="Added cite." Text="According to Sitchin interpretation of Sumerian mythology, this is how gods grouped the stars in each sky segment into constellations (the twelve zodiac constellations) and named them after their own leaders.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; To them (gods) this number, twelve, was a basic number to be applied in all celestial matters affecting the Bond Heaven-Earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [...] they grouped the stars in each sky segment into constellations. &lt;sup&gt;[source][1]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://archive.org/stream/CompleteWorksportugusEnglish/ZechariaSitchin-TheCosmicCode_djvu.txt" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1575" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="431" RevisionGUID="4c2b46d4-6037-43ad-9011-759d1cb216a3" CreationDate="2015-05-04T22:34:07.990" UserId="51" Comment="added 10 characters in body" Text="According to Sitchin interpretation of Sumerian mythology, this is how gods grouped the stars in each sky segment into constellations (the twelve zodiac constellations) and named them after their own leaders.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; To them (gods) this number, twelve, was a basic number to be applied in all celestial matters affecting the Bond Heaven-Earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [...] they grouped the stars in each sky segment into constellations. &lt;sup&gt;[p.49][1]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://ia701206.us.archive.org/20/items/CompleteWorksportugusEnglish/ZechariaSitchin-TheCosmicCode.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1576" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="474" RevisionGUID="c502ee74-ea34-4904-a902-677e4016c5aa" CreationDate="2015-05-04T22:37:14.650" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|ragnarok|apocalypse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1577" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="475" RevisionGUID="48bf5ee1-29ef-412c-b6ef-6f3a0024e6f4" CreationDate="2015-05-04T22:42:02.873" UserId="29" Text="Only two humans are left to repopulate the world after `Ragnarok`. [The Children of Odin][1] addresses the event in an easily comprehensible way:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; What said Odin to the Gods and to the Champions who surrounded him?&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&quot;We will give our lives and let our world be destroyed, but we will&#xD;&#xA;&gt; battle so that these evil powers will not live after us.&quot;** Out of Hel's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ship sprang Fenrir the Wolf. His mouth gaped; his lower jaw hung&#xD;&#xA;&gt; against the earth, and his upper jaw scraped the sky. Against the Wolf&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Odin All-Father fought. Thor might not aid him, for Thor had now to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; encounter Jörmungand, the monstrous serpent.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; By Fenrir the Wolf **Odin was slain**. But the younger Gods were now&#xD;&#xA;&gt; advancing to the battle; and Vidar, the Silent God, came face to face&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with Fenrir. He laid his foot on the Wolf's lower jaw, that foot that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; had on the sandal made of all the scraps of leather that shoemakers&#xD;&#xA;&gt; had laid by for him, and with his hands he seized the upper jaw and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tore his gullet. **Thus died Fenrir**, the fiercest of all the enemies of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Gods.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jörmungand, the monstrous serpent, would have overwhelmed all with the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; venom he was ready to pour forth. But Thor sprang forward and crushed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him with a stroke of his hammer Miölnir. **Then Thor stepped back nine&#xD;&#xA;&gt; paces. But the serpent blew his venom over him, and blinded and choked&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and burnt, Thor, the World's Defender, perished.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Loki sprang from his ship and strove with Heimdall, the Warder of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Rainbow Bridge and the Watcher for the Gods. **Loki slew Heimdall and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was slain by him.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Bravely fought Tyr, the God who had sacrificed his swordhand for the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; binding of the Wolf. Bravely he fought, and many of the powers of evil&#xD;&#xA;&gt; perished by his strong left hand. **But Garm, the hound with bloody&#xD;&#xA;&gt; jaws, slew Tyr.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The text goes on many deaths take place. Together with the gods, the evil also dies, which is what Odin was striving for.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After [Ragnarok][2]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Deep in a wood two of human kind were left; the fire of Surtur did not touch them; they slept, and when they wakened the world was green and beautiful again. These two fed on the dews of the morning; a woman and a man they were, Lif and Lifthrasir. They walked abroad in the world, and from them and from their children came the men and women who spread themselves over the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can take a look [here][3] for the complete version of the battle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0025VKZFM/?tag=stackoverfl08-20&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar%C3%B6k&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://sacred-texts.com/neu/ice/coo/coo36.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1581" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="475" RevisionGUID="5704de7d-e5bf-40cb-a8e7-22364e80e085" CreationDate="2015-05-04T22:48:53.750" UserId="29" Comment="added 107 characters in body" Text="Only two humans are left to repopulate the world after `Ragnarok`. The gods die during the battle together with the evil and the two people are left to repopulate the world. [The Children of Odin][1] addresses the event in an easily comprehensible way:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; What said Odin to the Gods and to the Champions who surrounded him?&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&quot;We will give our lives and let our world be destroyed, but we will&#xD;&#xA;&gt; battle so that these evil powers will not live after us.&quot;** Out of Hel's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ship sprang Fenrir the Wolf. His mouth gaped; his lower jaw hung&#xD;&#xA;&gt; against the earth, and his upper jaw scraped the sky. Against the Wolf&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Odin All-Father fought. Thor might not aid him, for Thor had now to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; encounter Jörmungand, the monstrous serpent.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; By Fenrir the Wolf **Odin was slain**. But the younger Gods were now&#xD;&#xA;&gt; advancing to the battle; and Vidar, the Silent God, came face to face&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with Fenrir. He laid his foot on the Wolf's lower jaw, that foot that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; had on the sandal made of all the scraps of leather that shoemakers&#xD;&#xA;&gt; had laid by for him, and with his hands he seized the upper jaw and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tore his gullet. **Thus died Fenrir**, the fiercest of all the enemies of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Gods.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jörmungand, the monstrous serpent, would have overwhelmed all with the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; venom he was ready to pour forth. But Thor sprang forward and crushed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him with a stroke of his hammer Miölnir. **Then Thor stepped back nine&#xD;&#xA;&gt; paces. But the serpent blew his venom over him, and blinded and choked&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and burnt, Thor, the World's Defender, perished.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Loki sprang from his ship and strove with Heimdall, the Warder of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Rainbow Bridge and the Watcher for the Gods. **Loki slew Heimdall and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was slain by him.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Bravely fought Tyr, the God who had sacrificed his swordhand for the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; binding of the Wolf. Bravely he fought, and many of the powers of evil&#xD;&#xA;&gt; perished by his strong left hand. **But Garm, the hound with bloody&#xD;&#xA;&gt; jaws, slew Tyr.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The text goes on many deaths take place. Together with the gods, the evil also dies, which is what Odin was striving for.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After [Ragnarok][2]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Deep in a wood two of human kind were left; the fire of Surtur did not touch them; they slept, and when they wakened the world was green and beautiful again. These two fed on the dews of the morning; a woman and a man they were, Lif and Lifthrasir. They walked abroad in the world, and from them and from their children came the men and women who spread themselves over the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can take a look [here][3] for the complete version of the battle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0025VKZFM/?tag=stackoverfl08-20&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar%C3%B6k&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://sacred-texts.com/neu/ice/coo/coo36.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1582" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="475" RevisionGUID="542ba76e-26e7-4dc2-9759-2e8f1127386c" CreationDate="2015-05-04T23:08:28.637" UserId="29" Comment="deleted 70 characters in body" Text="Only two humans are left to repopulate the world after `Ragnarok`. The gods die during the battle together with the evil and the two people are left to repopulate the world. [The Children of Odin][1] addresses the event in an easily comprehensible way:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; What said Odin to the Gods and to the Champions who surrounded him?&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&quot;We will give our lives and let our world be destroyed, but we will&#xD;&#xA;&gt; battle so that these evil powers will not live after us.&quot;** Out of Hel's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ship sprang Fenrir the Wolf. His mouth gaped; his lower jaw hung&#xD;&#xA;&gt; against the earth, and his upper jaw scraped the sky. Against the Wolf&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Odin All-Father fought. Thor might not aid him, for Thor had now to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; encounter Jörmungand, the monstrous serpent.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; By Fenrir the Wolf **Odin was slain**. But the younger Gods were now&#xD;&#xA;&gt; advancing to the battle; and Vidar, the Silent God, came face to face&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with Fenrir. He laid his foot on the Wolf's lower jaw, that foot that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; had on the sandal made of all the scraps of leather that shoemakers&#xD;&#xA;&gt; had laid by for him, and with his hands he seized the upper jaw and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tore his gullet. **Thus died Fenrir**, the fiercest of all the enemies of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Gods.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jörmungand, the monstrous serpent, would have overwhelmed all with the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; venom he was ready to pour forth. But Thor sprang forward and crushed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him with a stroke of his hammer Miölnir. **Then Thor stepped back nine&#xD;&#xA;&gt; paces. But the serpent blew his venom over him, and blinded and choked&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and burnt, Thor, the World's Defender, perished.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Loki sprang from his ship and strove with Heimdall, the Warder of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Rainbow Bridge and the Watcher for the Gods. **Loki slew Heimdall and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was slain by him.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Bravely fought Tyr, the God who had sacrificed his swordhand for the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; binding of the Wolf. Bravely he fought, and many of the powers of evil&#xD;&#xA;&gt; perished by his strong left hand. **But Garm, the hound with bloody&#xD;&#xA;&gt; jaws, slew Tyr.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The text goes on many deaths take place. Together with the gods, the evil also dies, which is what Odin was striving for.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After [Ragnarok][2]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Deep in a wood two of human kind were left; the fire of Surtur did not touch them; they slept, and when they wakened the world was green and beautiful again. These two fed on the dews of the morning; a woman and a man they were, Lif and Lifthrasir. They walked abroad in the world, and from them and from their children came the men and women who spread themselves over the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source: http://sacred-texts.com/neu/ice/coo/coo36.htm&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0025VKZFM/?tag=stackoverfl08-20&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar%C3%B6k" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1583" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="477" RevisionGUID="3145a770-d5ae-4d10-8617-67d62529e968" CreationDate="2015-05-04T23:11:31.207" UserId="87" Text="This is something [Marvel's Thor does all the time](https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/76334/what-kind-of-pathfinding-system-does-mjolnir-use/76336#76336):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So I was wondering: **Has Thor/Mjolnir ever done anything like this in actual Norse mythology?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/aBviE.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1584" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="477" RevisionGUID="3145a770-d5ae-4d10-8617-67d62529e968" CreationDate="2015-05-04T23:11:31.207" UserId="87" Text="Is Mjolnir actually capable of flying back into Thor's hand like a boomerang after being thrown?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1585" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="477" RevisionGUID="3145a770-d5ae-4d10-8617-67d62529e968" CreationDate="2015-05-04T23:11:31.207" UserId="87" Text="|norse|thor|mjolnir|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1587" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="466" RevisionGUID="d2336a8b-f5f4-4b52-8769-68fb47d77b5c" CreationDate="2015-05-04T23:18:05.677" UserId="-1" Comment="102" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:98,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;PythonMaster&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:38,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Piper&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:93,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;fredsbend&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:155,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;logic&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:62,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Christofian&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="1588" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="329" RevisionGUID="593e99b9-29f6-4619-bd5e-52ac23ea5d35" CreationDate="2015-05-04T23:19:47.033" UserId="108" Comment="added 173 characters in body" Text="**No.** Modern scholarship usually considers [Zeus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus) to be the Greek continuation of a [Proto-Indo-European](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_religion) sky deity reconstructed as [***Dyēus ph&lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt;ter**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyeus). In fact, of all the Greek pantheon, Zeus is the most obviously descended from a prehistorical deity common to the [Proto-Indo-European peoples](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans). Under the prevailing consensus, therefore, Zeus is not a deified [Cretan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crete) king.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The same root for 'shine' furnished the name of the head of the PIE pantheon, a god called Father Sky, whose name is securely reconstructible from the exact equation of Vedic Sanskrit *dyàuṣ pítar* '(o) Father Sky', Greek *Zeu pater* '(o) Father Zeus', and the Latin *Iū-piter* 'Jupiter' (Literlaly 'father Jove', also originally a vocative or form of direct address like the previous two.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Fortson, B. *[Indo-European Language and Culture: an Introduction.](http://eu.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-1405188960.html)* Oxford: Blackwell Publishing, 2004.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More generally, [Euhemerus'](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euhemerus) theory on the origin of myths has one essential flaw. There is typically no evidence to support historical explanations for mythical events or figures. In the case of Zeus, the evidence that he dates back to the time of Proto-Indo-Europeans makes the theory that he was a (relatively) more recent Cretan king quite unlikely.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Euhemerus' theory has one basic weakness. In most cases, modern scholars lack enough historical evidence to determine whether a mythical figure ever existed. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Jacobs, Dale W. The World Book Encyclopedia. World Book Inc, 1997.&lt;/sub&gt;**" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1589" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="471" RevisionGUID="dcf1b4c1-760a-42fe-afef-3a5becd408bd" CreationDate="2015-05-04T23:20:48.840" UserId="183" Comment="added 8 characters in body; edited tags" Text="In Greek mythology, Cronus/Kronos and Gaea were the first gods to exist, Gaea the goddess to rule the Earth and Cronus the moon. When they first appeared, the Earth was already in existence. Neither Gaea nor Cronus have created the Earth and seemingly, the Earth was created by something or someone before them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So how was the Earth created in Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1590" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="471" RevisionGUID="dcf1b4c1-760a-42fe-afef-3a5becd408bd" CreationDate="2015-05-04T23:20:48.840" UserId="183" Comment="added 8 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|greek|creation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1591" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="448" RevisionGUID="68921822-afff-4a15-854f-157926c66b82" CreationDate="2015-05-04T23:32:05.403" UserId="183" Comment="edited title" Text="How old was Merlin when he died at the hand of Niviane or the Lady of the Lake?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1592" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="475" RevisionGUID="19a482e7-f3cd-48ea-b79c-49f8ea738c5f" CreationDate="2015-05-04T23:36:09.037" UserId="29" Comment="deleted 67 characters in body" Text="The gods die during the battle together with the evil and the two people are left to repopulate the world. [The Children of Odin][1] addresses the event in an easily comprehensible way:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; What said Odin to the Gods and to the Champions who surrounded him?&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&quot;We will give our lives and let our world be destroyed, but we will&#xD;&#xA;&gt; battle so that these evil powers will not live after us.&quot;** Out of Hel's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ship sprang Fenrir the Wolf. His mouth gaped; his lower jaw hung&#xD;&#xA;&gt; against the earth, and his upper jaw scraped the sky. Against the Wolf&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Odin All-Father fought. Thor might not aid him, for Thor had now to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; encounter Jörmungand, the monstrous serpent.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; By Fenrir the Wolf **Odin was slain**. But the younger Gods were now&#xD;&#xA;&gt; advancing to the battle; and Vidar, the Silent God, came face to face&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with Fenrir. He laid his foot on the Wolf's lower jaw, that foot that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; had on the sandal made of all the scraps of leather that shoemakers&#xD;&#xA;&gt; had laid by for him, and with his hands he seized the upper jaw and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tore his gullet. **Thus died Fenrir**, the fiercest of all the enemies of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Gods.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jörmungand, the monstrous serpent, would have overwhelmed all with the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; venom he was ready to pour forth. But Thor sprang forward and crushed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him with a stroke of his hammer Miölnir. **Then Thor stepped back nine&#xD;&#xA;&gt; paces. But the serpent blew his venom over him, and blinded and choked&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and burnt, Thor, the World's Defender, perished.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Loki sprang from his ship and strove with Heimdall, the Warder of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Rainbow Bridge and the Watcher for the Gods. **Loki slew Heimdall and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was slain by him.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Bravely fought Tyr, the God who had sacrificed his swordhand for the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; binding of the Wolf. Bravely he fought, and many of the powers of evil&#xD;&#xA;&gt; perished by his strong left hand. **But Garm, the hound with bloody&#xD;&#xA;&gt; jaws, slew Tyr.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The text goes on many deaths take place. Together with the gods, the evil also dies, which is what Odin was striving for.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After [Ragnarok][2]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Deep in a wood two of human kind were left; the fire of Surtur did not touch them; they slept, and when they wakened the world was green and beautiful again. These two fed on the dews of the morning; a woman and a man they were, Lif and Lifthrasir. They walked abroad in the world, and from them and from their children came the men and women who spread themselves over the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source: http://sacred-texts.com/neu/ice/coo/coo36.htm&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0025VKZFM/?tag=stackoverfl08-20&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar%C3%B6k" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1594" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="478" RevisionGUID="8a986abe-726b-4d09-858a-11d65d4f6e39" CreationDate="2015-05-05T00:11:48.400" UserId="42" Text="Yes, it seems so.  In the Prose Edda, when Thor is presented with the hammer by Brokkr, this property is in the description ([Page 147, here](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre05.htm)):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then he gave the hammer to Thor, and said that Thor might smite as hard as he desired, whatsoever might be before him, and the hammer would not fail; and if he threw it at anything, it would never miss, and never fly so far as not to return to his hand;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1595" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="479" RevisionGUID="0697c600-4d67-45c9-9796-542aa2f4ee24" CreationDate="2015-05-05T00:27:21.297" UserId="183" Text="This is the offshoot I mentioned of [this question](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/448/how-old-was-merlin-when-he-died-at-the-hand-of-niviane-or-the-lady-of-the-lake).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [this](http://www.timelessmyths.com/arthurian/merlin.html#DeadMerlin),&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In a few tales, a maiden or a fay had trapped Merlin in an enchantment. The most famous was the Lady of the Lake. Again, there are few versions involving his death at the hand of the Lady of the Lake.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Lady of the Lake was a powerful sorceress and the lady of Otherworldly realm, hidden by the illusionary lake. The Lady of the Lake was known by several other names, such as Niniane, Viviane and Nimue. Further confusion resulted when some author listed several women with title the Lady of the Lake.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Following [a link](http://www.timelessmyths.com/arthurian/women.html#Lake),&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There seemed to be several &quot;Lady of the Lake&quot;. The most important Lady of the Lake was Niniane (also known as Viviane, Vivien or Nimue). Some even say that Morgan le Fay was also the Lady of the Lake, though most often Morgan was referred to as one of nine sorceresses of Avalon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even more detail is given [here](http://www.kingarthursknights.com/others/ladylake.asp). I looked at [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_of_the_Lake) and found&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Post-Vulgate Cycle's second Lady of the Lake is called Ninianne, and her story is nearly identical to the one in the Lancelot-Grail, though it adds her bestowal of the magic sword Excalibur to Arthur. Sir Thomas Malory also uses both Ladies of the Lake in his Le Morte d'Arthur; he leaves the first one unnamed and calls the second one Nimue.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems like the &quot;some author&quot; mentioned in the first quote is Sir Thomas Malory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any connection between the two Ladies of the Lake, given that Malory implies that they are separate figures?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1596" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="479" RevisionGUID="0697c600-4d67-45c9-9796-542aa2f4ee24" CreationDate="2015-05-05T00:27:21.297" UserId="183" Text="Is there any relationship between the Ladies of the Lake?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1597" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="479" RevisionGUID="0697c600-4d67-45c9-9796-542aa2f4ee24" CreationDate="2015-05-05T00:27:21.297" UserId="183" Text="|arthurian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1598" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="382" RevisionGUID="b029ccf9-0088-4ad1-9a10-0ad2d952b4ee" CreationDate="2015-05-05T00:30:28.857" UserId="183" Comment="added 183 characters in body" Text="The two human survivors are [Lif and Lifthrasir](http://norse-mythology.org/lif-lifthrasir/). They live through Ragnarök by [hiding in Yggdrasil](http://www.viking-mythology.com/ragnarok.php) before the great battles, supposedly [in Hoddmimir's wood](http://www.timelessmyths.com/norse/ragnarok.html#NewAge). Apparently, [Vafthrudnir told this to Odin](http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/norse-mythology.php?deity=RAGNAROK) in a prophecy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They are mentioned in verse 45 of [*Vafþrúðnismál*](http://www.heimskringla.no/wiki/Vaf%C3%BEr%C3%BA%C3%B0nism%C3%A1l):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Líf ok Lifþrasir,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;br&gt;en þau leynask munu&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;br&gt;í holti Hoddmímis;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;br&gt;morgindöggvar&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;br&gt;þau sér at mat hafa,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; en þaðan af aldir alask.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't know Icelandic, but [this answer](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/131/how-is-the-hoddm%c3%admis-holt-able-to-protect-humans-from-ragnar%c3%b6k/271#271) gives me&#xD;&#xA;&gt;45. Lif and Lifthrasir&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; lie hidden&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; in the grove of Hoard-Mimir;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; the morning dews&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; they shall have as meat,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; from them generations will spring.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;source: http://www.germanicmythology.com/PoeticEdda/GRM27.html&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This verse is the source of the prophecy to Odin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems that the two humans were, though prophesied, simply random people who happened to find a safe (and sacred) place to hide.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I must admit that I have no idea how a tree protected them, although Yggdrasil was a sacred, powerful tree, and was most likely the safest place in the world, thanks to its power." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1602" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="480" RevisionGUID="9f64bd53-2f99-493a-9c8e-ccb0940eb95f" CreationDate="2015-05-05T01:14:41.107" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1603" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="481" RevisionGUID="557795c8-2da9-4032-8907-34e9fc94e544" CreationDate="2015-05-05T01:14:41.107" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1609" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="463" RevisionGUID="b162f9c7-aa09-4136-9e3b-ca24fa3044e2" CreationDate="2015-05-05T02:25:31.433" UserId="171" Comment="added 471 characters in body" Text="I am a little bit confused by the way the terms `giant`, `frost giant`, `jotun` (or _jötunn_), `ettin` and `troll` seem to overlap in Norse mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't understand if they refer to what we could understood as a single race or multiple (or even variations within the race). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It also adds to my confusion that not only some of the terms seems to refer to really similar beings, but that some of this creatures that are inconsistently depicted. The same beings can be portrayed both as really ugly or really beautiful (I understand how good or evil character could vary between individuals, but I'm confused that the physical appearance is not consistent for the whole &quot;race&quot;). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another example: the word &quot;giant&quot; would make you think that beings of this race were of a greater size (greater than average, being this &quot;greater than human size&quot; or &quot;greater than god/Æsir/Vanir size&quot;), but this doesn't seem to be a problem sometimes in order to interact (intermarrying, procreating, etc.) with other beings. That makes me think that the all those names depict different creatures, and not just one race, still, as pointed above, there doesn't seem to be consistency for the traits of each of these races..&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Could somebody clarify if these are different classes of beings, the same class with different names, or clarify what they were an &quot;embodiment&quot; of (like, giant or troll is another way of depict a race as &quot;evil&quot;)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1610" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="482" RevisionGUID="5f18b0ca-c7e2-41fb-b2dd-764bd395c819" CreationDate="2015-05-05T03:38:40.140" UserId="155" Text="Semele was the [mortal mother of Zeus' son Dionysus][1]. She was tricked by the jealous Hera because Zeus was in love with her:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Zeus fell in love with Semele and afterwards repeatedly visited her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; secretly &lt;sup&gt;[[1][4]]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In short, Semele ends up dying. Afterwards, when Dionysus grew older, he was concerned for his mother and retrieved her from the underworld: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dionysus feared for his mother, whom he had not seen since birth. He bypassed the god of death, known as Thanatos, thus successfully returning Semele to Mount Olympus. Out of the twelve Olympians, he was of the few that could restore the deceased from the underworld back to life. &lt;sup&gt;[[2][2]]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, once Semele is among the gods, Dionysus refers to her under the name Thyone:&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; THYO′NE (Thuônê), the name of Semele, under which Dionysus fetched her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from Hades, and introduced her among the immortals.&lt;sup&gt;[[3][3]]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a specific reason for this name change?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semele#cite_note-1&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus#cite_note-50&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/Thyone.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semele#cite_note-9" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1611" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="482" RevisionGUID="5f18b0ca-c7e2-41fb-b2dd-764bd395c819" CreationDate="2015-05-05T03:38:40.140" UserId="155" Text="Why did Dionysus change his mother's name?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1612" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="482" RevisionGUID="5f18b0ca-c7e2-41fb-b2dd-764bd395c819" CreationDate="2015-05-05T03:38:40.140" UserId="155" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1613" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="482" RevisionGUID="018f041d-b061-413a-adee-c03417df59d2" CreationDate="2015-05-05T03:45:31.437" UserId="155" Comment="deleted 168 characters in body" Text="Semele was the [mortal mother of Zeus' son Dionysus][1]. She was tricked by the jealous Hera she ends up dying. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Dionysus survived][2], but when he grew older, he was concerned for his mother and retrieved her from the underworld: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dionysus feared for his mother, whom he had not seen since birth. He bypassed the god of death, known as Thanatos, thus successfully returning Semele to Mount Olympus. Out of the twelve Olympians, he was of the few that could restore the deceased from the underworld back to life. &lt;sup&gt;[[1][3]]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, once Semele is among the gods, Dionysus refers to her under the name Thyone:&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; THYO′NE (Thuônê), the name of Semele, under which Dionysus fetched her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from Hades, and introduced her among the immortals.&lt;sup&gt;[[2][4]]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a specific reason for this name change?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semele#cite_note-1&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.greekmythology.com/Other_Gods/Dionysus/dionysus.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus#cite_note-50&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/Thyone.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1614" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="481" RevisionGUID="25caca2f-5b5d-409f-bd42-30754e11b332" CreationDate="2015-05-05T03:49:04.930" UserId="183" Comment="added 129 characters in body" Text="For questions about the mythology of Brittany, an area of Northwestern France with strong cultural influence from Celtic Britain." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1615" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="481" RevisionGUID="25caca2f-5b5d-409f-bd42-30754e11b332" CreationDate="2015-05-05T03:49:04.930" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 38, 11 edit id of 127" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1616" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="341" RevisionGUID="91fda20e-fd18-43d9-8ce6-a881116f5efa" CreationDate="2015-05-05T03:49:43.510" UserId="29" Comment="completely renewing the edit. gods are not always immortal and that might lead to misinterpretations" Text="For questions about beings with superhuman powers, closely tied to a specific property and worshipped by ancient people." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1617" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="341" RevisionGUID="91fda20e-fd18-43d9-8ce6-a881116f5efa" CreationDate="2015-05-05T03:49:43.510" Comment="Proposed by 29 approved by 38, 11 edit id of 126" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1618" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="483" RevisionGUID="59ac3340-cc66-4fd7-98c6-c24109595875" CreationDate="2015-05-05T04:32:45.060" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1619" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="484" RevisionGUID="35cf032c-ce11-45a7-a471-726195c9badf" CreationDate="2015-05-05T04:32:45.060" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1621" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="482" RevisionGUID="a69eed7b-4a28-4e5f-b3da-fd5972bb09bd" CreationDate="2015-05-05T06:41:29.293" UserId="79" Comment="added 5 characters in body" Text="Semele was the [mortal mother of Zeus' son Dionysus][1]. She was tricked by the jealous Hera and she ends up dying. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Dionysus survived][2], but when he grew older, he was concerned for his mother and retrieved her from the Underworld: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dionysus feared for his mother, whom he had not seen since birth. He bypassed the god of death, known as Thanatos, thus successfully returning Semele to Mount Olympus. Out of the twelve Olympians, he was of the few that could restore the deceased from the underworld back to life. &lt;sup&gt;[[1][3]]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, once Semele was among the gods, Dionysus refers to her under the name Thyone:&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; THYO′NE (Thuônê), the name of Semele, under which Dionysus fetched her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from Hades, and introduced her among the immortals.&lt;sup&gt;[[2][4]]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was there a specific reason for this name change?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semele#cite_note-1&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.greekmythology.com/Other_Gods/Dionysus/dionysus.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus#cite_note-50&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/Thyone.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1623" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="484" RevisionGUID="bdff4914-c4ee-485e-a83a-a156adb156c6" CreationDate="2015-05-05T07:09:59.377" UserId="171" Comment="added 116 characters in body" Text="A fearsome and powerful war hammer forged by dwarves, this is the trademark weapon of the norse god of thunder Thor." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1624" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="484" RevisionGUID="bdff4914-c4ee-485e-a83a-a156adb156c6" CreationDate="2015-05-05T07:09:59.377" Comment="Proposed by 171 approved by 79, 29 edit id of 128" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1625" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="485" RevisionGUID="67588845-519b-441e-863b-92688c4b62b4" CreationDate="2015-05-05T07:38:28.343" UserId="29" Text="When Dionysus fetches Semele from Hades and introduces her to Olympus, she is no longer a human being, but a goddess. The name change is actually due to this transform.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Στην ελληνική μυθολογία το όνομα **Thyone** ήταν μια άλλη ονομασία της μητέρας του θεού Διονύσου, της **Σεμέλης**. Η εξήγηση που δίνεται για τη μεταξύ τους διαφορά είναι ότι «**Σεμέλη**» είναι η θνητή υπόσταση της μητέρας του θεού, ενώ «**Θυώνη**» είναι η **Σεμέλη** μετά την αποθέωσή της (δηλαδή τη μετατροπή της σε θεά) από τον Διόνυσο, ο οποίος την έφερε στον Όλυμπο παίρνοντάς την από τον Άδη.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;source: Wikipedia article on [Thyone](http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%98%CF%85%CF%8E%CE%BD%CE%B7)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In Greek mythology the name **Θυώνη** was another name of Dionysus' mother, **Semele**. The difference is that **Semele** is a mortal aspect of Dionysus' mother, while deification is actually **Semele** after her **Αποθέωσις**. (deification).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Little is however known about the etymology of the name **Semele**. One theory is that it's derived from the word `Θεμέλη` which means Earth in ancient Greek. That said, the names are tied to **Themele's** subsistence at the time." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1626" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="485" RevisionGUID="b8134eb6-68d4-4dff-9ba5-6a167b93c650" CreationDate="2015-05-05T07:46:42.047" UserId="29" Comment="added 20 characters in body" Text="When Dionysus fetches Semele from Hades and introduces her to Olympus, she is no longer a human being, but a goddess. The name change is actually due to this transform.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Στην ελληνική μυθολογία το όνομα **Θυώνη** ήταν μια άλλη ονομασία της μητέρας του θεού Διονύσου, της **Σεμέλης**. Η εξήγηση που δίνεται για τη μεταξύ τους διαφορά είναι ότι «**Σεμέλη**» είναι η θνητή υπόσταση της μητέρας του θεού, ενώ «**Θυώνη**» είναι η **Σεμέλη** μετά την αποθέωσή της (δηλαδή τη μετατροπή της σε θεά) από τον Διόνυσο, ο οποίος την έφερε στον Όλυμπο παίρνοντάς την από τον Άδη.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;source: Wikipedia article on [Thyone](http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%98%CF%85%CF%8E%CE%BD%CE%B7)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In Greek mythology the name **Thyone** was another name of Dionysus' mother, **Semele**. The difference is that **Semele** is a mortal aspect of Dionysus' mother, while **Thyone** is actually **Semele** after her **Αποθέωσις** (which means deification in Greek).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Little is however known about the etymology of the name **Semele**. One theory is that it's derived from the word `Θεμέλη` which means Earth in ancient Greek. That said, the names are tied to **Themele's** subsistence at the time." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1627" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="486" RevisionGUID="16ea2bc4-1667-4c02-9f59-b2f39451190d" CreationDate="2015-05-05T07:48:53.987" UserId="111" Text="Pausanias in its *[Description of Greece](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Pausanias2A.html)* mentions during his visit to Corynth an image of Zeus Chthonios in a temple:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The images of Zeus also are in the open; one had not a surname, another they call Chthonius (of the Lower World) and the third Most High.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This has been confirmed by archeological findings (see [Williams &amp; Fisher 1975](http://www.jstor.org/stable/147424)). The latter article also mentions that Zeus Chthonios was worshipped in Boeotia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Additionally, in his 1908 article on [*The propitation of Zeus*](http://www.jstor.org/stable/310320), Hewitt mentions that an inscription has been found in Mykonos in which: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the worshipper is directed to sacrifice to Zeus Chthonius on behalf of the crops, and to Ge Chthonia, of which sacrifice no stranger may eat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However one has to note that there is a controversy as to whether Zeus Chthonios and Zeus Katachthonios are indeed Zeus or in fact nicknames of Hades. It seems particularly clear for Katachthonios (see [Fairbanks 1900](http://www.jstor.org/stable/287716) for instance) but less so for Chthonios which seems more linked to agriculture than to the underworld anyway. See Hesiod in *Works and Days* about Zeus Chthonios (here called by the translator &quot;Zeus of the Earth&quot;):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pray to Zeus of the Earth and to pure Demeter to make Demeter's holy grain sound and heavy, when first you begin ploughing, when you hold in your hand the end of the plough-tail and bring down your stick on the backs of the oxen as they draw on the pole-bar by the yoke-straps.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In that sense Zeus Chthonios is not so much &quot;earthly&quot; because he is underground but rather because he is &quot;the giver of the fruit of the earth&quot; (to quote Fairbanks)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1628" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="486" RevisionGUID="a1314b39-9aff-4776-a4e5-1710cc7d7e59" CreationDate="2015-05-05T08:18:39.273" UserId="111" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="Pausanias in its *[Description of Greece](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Pausanias2A.html)* mentions during his visit to Corynth an image of Zeus Chthonios in a temple:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The images of Zeus also are in the open; one had not a surname, another they call Chthonius (of the Lower World) and the third Most High.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This has been confirmed by archeological findings (see [Williams &amp; Fisher 1975](http://www.jstor.org/stable/147424)). The latter article also mentions that Zeus Chthonios was worshipped in Boeotia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Additionally, in his 1908 article on [*The propitiation of Zeus*](http://www.jstor.org/stable/310320), Hewitt mentions that an inscription has been found in Mykonos in which: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the worshipper is directed to sacrifice to Zeus Chthonius on behalf of the crops, and to Ge Chthonia, of which sacrifice no stranger may eat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However one has to note that there is a controversy as to whether Zeus Chthonios and Zeus Katachthonios are indeed Zeus or in fact nicknames of Hades. It seems particularly clear for Katachthonios (see [Fairbanks 1900](http://www.jstor.org/stable/287716) for instance) but less so for Chthonios which seems more linked to agriculture than to the underworld anyway. See Hesiod in *Works and Days* (lines 465-469) about Zeus Chthonios (here called by the translator &quot;Zeus of the Earth&quot;):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pray to Zeus of the Earth and to pure Demeter to make Demeter's holy grain sound and heavy, when first you begin ploughing, when you hold in your hand the end of the plough-tail and bring down your stick on the backs of the oxen as they draw on the pole-bar by the yoke-straps.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In that sense Zeus Chthonios is not so much *earthy* because he is underground but rather because he is *the giver of the fruit of the earth* (to quote Fairbanks)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1629" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="486" RevisionGUID="f0362354-b900-476e-a91e-8b9f97634679" CreationDate="2015-05-05T08:21:02.863" UserId="57" Comment="edited body" Text="Pausanias in its *[Description of Greece](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Pausanias2A.html)* mentions during his visit to Corinth an image of Zeus Chthonios in a temple:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The images of Zeus also are in the open; one had not a surname, another they call Chthonius (of the Lower World) and the third Most High.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This has been confirmed by archeological findings (see [Williams &amp; Fisher 1975](http://www.jstor.org/stable/147424)). The latter article also mentions that Zeus Chthonios was worshipped in Boeotia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Additionally, in his 1908 article on [*The propitiation of Zeus*](http://www.jstor.org/stable/310320), Hewitt mentions that an inscription has been found in Mykonos in which: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the worshipper is directed to sacrifice to Zeus Chthonius on behalf of the crops, and to Ge Chthonia, of which sacrifice no stranger may eat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However one has to note that there is a controversy as to whether Zeus Chthonios and Zeus Katachthonios are indeed Zeus or in fact nicknames of Hades. It seems particularly clear for Katachthonios (see [Fairbanks 1900](http://www.jstor.org/stable/287716) for instance) but less so for Chthonios which seems more linked to agriculture than to the underworld anyway. See Hesiod in *Works and Days* (lines 465-469) about Zeus Chthonios (here called by the translator &quot;Zeus of the Earth&quot;):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pray to Zeus of the Earth and to pure Demeter to make Demeter's holy grain sound and heavy, when first you begin ploughing, when you hold in your hand the end of the plough-tail and bring down your stick on the backs of the oxen as they draw on the pole-bar by the yoke-straps.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In that sense Zeus Chthonios is not so much *earthy* because he is underground but rather because he is *the giver of the fruit of the earth* (to quote Fairbanks)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1631" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="487" RevisionGUID="326535f0-bf23-4e74-88ac-3efa09b0d29d" CreationDate="2015-05-05T11:20:26.340" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1632" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="488" RevisionGUID="0d6bd41f-9cff-4bed-a951-a6b83422ebc1" CreationDate="2015-05-05T11:20:26.340" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1633" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="489" RevisionGUID="4b0f8cb0-92c1-47d1-8899-cb26c6c9c59b" CreationDate="2015-05-05T13:27:09.213" UserId="79" Text="Giants are said to be element-based creatures. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Giants are extremely strong and are associated with cold and frost.&lt;sup&gt;[1]&lt;/sup&gt; One giant is supposed to bring about the wind (Hræsvelgr), while another is associated with the sea (Ægir) and yet another with fire (Logi).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sub&gt;source: http://www.germanicmythology.com/original/cosmology4.html &lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[1]: Vafthrüthnismal 33 and Grimnismal 31.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;So, frost giants come under the category of giants.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, the jotun (jǫtunn). A Jotun is a giant with superhuman strength; their homeland is Jotunheim. Ægir is said to be the sea jotun. And from the above quote, it is clear that Ægir was a giant. Hence confirming that the terms jotun and giants are very same.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In modern Icelandic, *jötunn* has kept its original meaning. In Old English, the cognate to ***jötunn*** is ***eoten***, whence modern English ***ettin***. Hence ettin is *another* term for giants, which evolved from the ancient roots of its original term.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;This extract from the Prose Edda book Skáldskaparmál, suggest that trolls were opposites to the giants (emphasis mine).&#xD;&#xA;&gt;They call me a troll,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;    moon of the earth-Hrungnir &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;    **wealth sucker of the giant**,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;    destroyer of the storm-sun &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;    beloved follower of the seeress,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The giants were often involved in incidents of higher degree (eg. battles with gods) whereas trolls live isolated and are not involved (not as much of the giants) with the higher degree incidents. Another major difference is that, as I have mentioned earlier in the answer, giants are element based. Trolls however, were not.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Further reading: http://netlibrary.net/articles/j%C3%B6tunn&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;	&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1634" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="488" RevisionGUID="9202fff4-c175-465c-991c-a6fade146078" CreationDate="2015-05-05T13:35:57.927" UserId="53" Comment="added 89 characters in body" Text="A written collection of Welsh myths compiled in the 13th Century from earlier oral tales." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1635" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="488" RevisionGUID="9202fff4-c175-465c-991c-a6fade146078" CreationDate="2015-05-05T13:35:57.927" Comment="Proposed by 53 approved by 11, 38 edit id of 129" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1636" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="53" RevisionGUID="6648f370-bfda-4416-99d0-aba94d27e649" CreationDate="2015-05-05T13:44:06.993" UserId="61" Comment="narrowed the question" Text="I am looking for a comparison/contrast of war gods.  (Feel free to mention other deities in your answer if they are relevant or helpful in explaining)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Considering their direct linkage I am curious to know how Ares and Mars were treated different by the respective Greek and Roman military respectively.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- What was different between the two in regards to their relationship with the military?&#xD;&#xA;- In what ways were the two deities worshiped the same?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1637" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="53" RevisionGUID="07698077-e9d4-4024-aa9f-8d866a0dd4f7" CreationDate="2015-05-05T14:33:05.667" UserId="36" Comment="Correcting spelling" Text="I am looking for a comparison/contrast of war gods.  (Feel free to mention other deities in your answer if they are relevant or helpful in explaining)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Considering their direct linkage I am curious to know how Ares and Mars were treated different by the Greek and Roman military respectively.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- What was different between the two in regards to their relationship with the military?&#xD;&#xA;- In what ways were the two deities worshipped the same?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1638" PostHistoryTypeId="11" PostId="53" RevisionGUID="011dd164-b47e-4a2d-8a7e-89ba762bbfd6" CreationDate="2015-05-05T14:52:24.233" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:61,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;James&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:111,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;plannapus&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:86,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;meneldal&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:171,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Deion&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="1639" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="490" RevisionGUID="4a957542-2992-42eb-803b-fb6ad41399d2" CreationDate="2015-05-05T16:41:50.877" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="This is an offshoot of a question asked about the Ba and Ka but what were the other 3 parts of the Egyptian soul and what did they represent?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1640" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="490" RevisionGUID="4a957542-2992-42eb-803b-fb6ad41399d2" CreationDate="2015-05-05T16:41:50.877" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="What were the five parts of the Egyptian soul?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1641" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="490" RevisionGUID="4a957542-2992-42eb-803b-fb6ad41399d2" CreationDate="2015-05-05T16:41:50.877" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1642" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="491" RevisionGUID="4d20ec5a-aa72-4291-a6d1-6574e0e05c1d" CreationDate="2015-05-05T17:23:42.163" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="Why is Athene often referred to as Pallas when it comes to her warrior side? In one myth it is said that Pallas was her father and another that Pallas was a friend she sparred with and accidentally killed." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1643" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="491" RevisionGUID="4d20ec5a-aa72-4291-a6d1-6574e0e05c1d" CreationDate="2015-05-05T17:23:42.163" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="Why is Athene often referred to as Pallas when it comes to her warrior side?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1644" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="491" RevisionGUID="4d20ec5a-aa72-4291-a6d1-6574e0e05c1d" CreationDate="2015-05-05T17:23:42.163" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="|ancient-greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1645" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="492" RevisionGUID="7f9f60d8-4203-4e65-bc7d-f90841501aef" CreationDate="2015-05-05T18:01:00.390" UserId="29" Text="There is no clear explanation on this and opinions seem to vary, some of which are the following:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The name comes from a Giant called `Πάλλαντας` (**Pallantas**), whom Athena killed during the Titanomachy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Athena got that name because she was born out of Zeus' head by throbbing her spear.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The name is attributed to a friend of Athena, whom she killed accidentally, so she was named after her, in terms of recognition and so that she could be remembered.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Kontos Aleksandros**, a linguist and sociologist, believes the following interpretation to be the most precise:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The main significance of the verb `Πάλλω` is to shake a lottery, until the ejection of the results, which would be the people to take place as judges in the supreme court of Ancient Greece. Since it was feared that there was would be a fraud in who would get selected, the people is charge of the draw would throb the lottery, until the names of the judges came out, due to that movement of the lottery jar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The primary importance therefore of **Pallas** is the motion that someone in a legatee to achieve the draw. And **Pallas** means the custodian of the draw, the custodian of the Republic. And **Pallas** Athena was primarily the protector of democratic Athens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources (unfortunately in Greek): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* https://lykomidis.wordpress.com/2010/01/17/%CE%BF%CE%B9-%CF%80%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%83%CF%89%CE%BD%CF%85%CE%BC%CE%AF%CE%B5%CF%82-%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82-%CE%B8%CE%B5%CE%AC%CF%82-%CE%B1%CE%B8%CE%B7%CE%BD%CE%AC%CF%82/&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%91%CE%B8%CE%B7%CE%BD%CE%AC&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1646" PostHistoryTypeId="12" PostId="203" RevisionGUID="a2799924-3038-452a-bf56-0b6302113f8f" CreationDate="2015-05-05T18:12:48.710" UserId="79" Comment="via Vote" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:79,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ero Sɘnnin&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="1647" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="493" RevisionGUID="a26a26b1-dc08-40e5-9b8f-576dd15e3c27" CreationDate="2015-05-05T18:18:21.117" UserId="171" Text="The five parts of the Egyptian soul were the Ren, the Ba, the Ka, the Sheut, and the Ib. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The Ren was the **name** given to a person at birth. Egyptians believed it was part of a person's soul and that  it would live for as long as that name was spoken&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The Sheut was the person's **shadow** or silhouette. Egyptians believed that the shadow, somehow, contained part of the essence of the person.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The _Ib_ was a metaphysical **heart** and to ancient Egyptians it was the focus of emotion, thought, will and intention. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The _Ba_ was the notion of **personality**. Everything that makes a person unique.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The _Ka_ was the **vital fire** or spark, that distinguishes living people from dead." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1648" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="415" RevisionGUID="f1002332-73fd-4768-9e27-c4107431563b" CreationDate="2015-05-05T18:27:52.097" UserId="11" Comment="Added citation" Text="Well, [according to Ovid](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/Metamorph4.htm#anchor_Toc64106272), she din't put Medusa's entire head on the shield, just the snakes from her hair:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jupiter’s daughter turned away, and hid her chaste eyes behind her aegis. So that it might not go unpunished, she changed the Gorgon’s hair to foul snakes. And now, to terrify her enemies, numbing them with fear, the goddess wears the snakes, that she created, as a breastplate.’&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Because Ovid (that translation anyway) says &quot;terrify&quot; and not &quot;turn to stone&quot;, it would suggest that **Athena didn't actually wear the entire head in her armor**, just the snakes; which perhaps on their own didn't turn anyone to stone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, it was certainly not because Medusa could not turn gods to stone; Perseus turned [Atlas](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_(mythology)), a Titan, to stone (again [according to Ovid](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/Metamorph4.htm#anchor_Toc64106269)):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Perseus delaying resolutely, and combining that with calm words. Inferior in strength (who could equal Atlas in strength?), he said, ‘Well now, since you show me so little kindness, accept a gift’ and turning away himself, he held out Medusa’s foul head, on his left hand side. Atlas became a mountain, as huge as he himself had been. Now his hair and beard were changed into trees, his shoulders and hands into ridges. What had been his head before was the crest on the mountain summit. His bones became stones. Then he grew to an immense height in every part (so you gods determined) and the whole sky, with its many stars, rested on him." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1649" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="492" RevisionGUID="47d5a6b9-7851-4171-bf60-832ba101df15" CreationDate="2015-05-05T18:28:38.947" UserId="29" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="There is no clear explanation on this and opinions seem to vary, some of which are the following:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The name comes from a Giant called `Πάλλαντας` (**Pallantas**), whom Athena killed during the Titanomachy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Athena got that name because she was born out of Zeus' head by throbbing her spear.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The name is attributed to a friend of Athena, whom she killed accidentally, so she was named after her, in terms of recognition and so that she could be remembered.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Kontos Aleksandros**, a linguist and sociologist, believes the following interpretation to be the most precise:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The main significance of the verb `Πάλλω` is to shake a lottery, until the ejection of the results, which would be the people to take place as judges in the supreme court of Ancient Greece. Since it was feared that there would be a fraud in who would get selected, the people is charge of the draw would throb the lottery, until the names of the judges came out, due to that movement of the lottery jar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The primary importance therefore of **Pallas** is the motion that someone does in a legatee to achieve the draw. And **Pallas** means the custodian of the draw, the custodian of the Republic. And **Pallas** Athena was primarily the protector of democratic Athens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources (unfortunately in Greek): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* https://lykomidis.wordpress.com/2010/01/17/%CE%BF%CE%B9-%CF%80%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%83%CF%89%CE%BD%CF%85%CE%BC%CE%AF%CE%B5%CF%82-%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82-%CE%B8%CE%B5%CE%AC%CF%82-%CE%B1%CE%B8%CE%B7%CE%BD%CE%AC%CF%82/&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%91%CE%B8%CE%B7%CE%BD%CE%AC&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1650" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="491" RevisionGUID="fecc80ae-9694-4fb1-a60c-36b1d22fcabc" CreationDate="2015-05-05T18:34:09.107" UserId="29" Comment="edited body; edited title" Text="Why is Athena often referred to as Pallas when it comes to her warrior side? In one myth it is said that Pallas was her father and another that Pallas was a friend she sparred with and accidentally killed." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1651" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="491" RevisionGUID="fecc80ae-9694-4fb1-a60c-36b1d22fcabc" CreationDate="2015-05-05T18:34:09.107" UserId="29" Comment="edited body; edited title" Text="Why is Athena often referred to as Pallas when it comes to her warrior side?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1652" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="493" RevisionGUID="afffd554-b9f8-455f-87a3-4176bd41fe44" CreationDate="2015-05-05T18:36:24.000" UserId="171" Comment="added 90 characters in body" Text="The five parts of the Egyptian soul were the Ren, the Ba, the Ka, the Sheut, and the Ib. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The Ren was the **name** given to a person at birth. Egyptians believed it was part of a person's soul and that  it would live for as long as that name was spoken or the person remembered.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The Sheut was the person's **shadow** or silhouette. Egyptians believed that the shadow, somehow, contained part of the essence of the person.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The _Ib_ was a metaphysical **heart** and to ancient Egyptians it was the focus of emotion, thought, will and intention. They understood it as the seat for the soul.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The _Ba_ was the notion of **personality**. Everything that makes a person unique.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The _Ka_ was the **vital fire** or spark, that distinguishes living people from dead (warm vs. cold, ).&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1653" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="491" RevisionGUID="fecc80ae-9694-4fb1-a60c-36b1d22fcabc" CreationDate="2015-05-05T18:34:09.107" UserId="29" Comment="edited body; edited title" Text="|greek|athena|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1654" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="492" RevisionGUID="c8594176-a425-4ca6-a03b-b89c4169f1e7" CreationDate="2015-05-05T18:54:40.983" UserId="29" Comment="added 924 characters in body" Text="There is no clear explanation on this and opinions seem to vary, some of which are the following:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The name comes from a Giant called `Πάλλαντας` (**Pallantas**), whom Athena killed during the Titanomachy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Athena got that name because she was born out of Zeus' head by throbbing her spear.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The name is attributed to a friend of Athena, whom she killed accidentally, so she was named after her, in terms of recognition and so that she could be remembered.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Kontos Aleksandros**, a linguist and sociologist, believes the following interpretation to be the most precise:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The main significance of the verb `Πάλλω` is to shake a lottery, until the ejection of the results, which would be the people to take place as judges in the supreme court of Ancient Greece. Since it was feared that there would be a fraud in who would get selected, the people is charge of the draw would throb the lottery, until the names of the judges came out, due to that movement of the lottery jar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The primary importance therefore of **Pallas** is the motion that someone does in a legatee to achieve the draw. And **Pallas** means the custodian of the draw, the custodian of the Republic. And **Pallas** Athena was primarily the protector of democratic Athens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus informs us about Pallas, Athena's friend:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;They say that when Athena was born she was brought up by Triton,  who had a daughter Pallas; and that both girls practised the arts of war, but that once on a time they fell out; and when Pallas was about to strike a blow, Zeus in fear interposed the aegis, and Pallas, being startled, looked up, and so fell wounded by Athena. And being exceedingly grieved for her, Athena made a wooden image in her likeness, and wrapped the aegis, which she had feared, about the breast of it, and set it up beside Zeus and honored it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Apollodorus 3.12.2&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;More than one interpretations might be true in its own aspect. In the aspect of mythology, Apollodorus' version is correct. But in the aspect of reality (why the people who worshipped Athena named her **Pallas** and why the had to find a myth that gave her that name), Kontos Aleksandros' analysis might be true as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources (unfortunately in Greek): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* https://lykomidis.wordpress.com/2010/01/17/%CE%BF%CE%B9-%CF%80%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%83%CF%89%CE%BD%CF%85%CE%BC%CE%AF%CE%B5%CF%82-%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82-%CE%B8%CE%B5%CE%AC%CF%82-%CE%B1%CE%B8%CE%B7%CE%BD%CE%AC%CF%82/&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%91%CE%B8%CE%B7%CE%BD%CE%AC&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* http://www.class.uh.edu/MCL/Classics/Athena/Texts_Athena.html&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1655" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="494" RevisionGUID="f5a6f149-2b2b-4bd3-b6eb-c11883184879" CreationDate="2015-05-05T19:15:08.993" UserId="11" Text="The reason for the discrepancy is that Egyptian mythology was **not unified even four thousand years ago**. There were four major cities, each with their own stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. The [egg creation myth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogdoad#In_Egyptian_mythology) is that of the city of [Hermopolis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermopolis), that you've already cited above. **Ogdoad** is the name of the 8 divine entities of that city's faith.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. [Heliopolis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliopolis_(ancient)) had [a different interpretation](http://books.google.com/books?id=6KUdBAAAQBAJ&amp;q=creation#v=snippet&amp;q=creation&amp;f=false):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; The actual process of creation was the interest of theologians in another great Egyptian city, Heliopolis (near the site of modern Cairo). Egyptian creation accounts do not seem to have envisaged the possibility of something being created from nothing. Instead, they describe how everything in the world-all its elements and forces-came from a single source, much like the primordial singularity in the &quot;Big Bang&quot; theory of modern physics. This original source of all things was known as the god Atum. The god's name means &quot;finisher,&quot; and refers to the fact that Atum &quot;finished up&quot; as the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; &amp;lt;snip&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; The birth of the sun is actually the cumlination of creation in the Heliopolitan system, as it is in the early myth of the primeval mound. The sun's first rising into the newly created world-space marks the end of creation and the beginning of the eternal cycle of life, which the sun regulates (as king of nature) and makes possible through his heat and light. The Heliopolitan accounts therefore concentrate not only on Atum's &quot;evolution&quot; but also on the sun's role in the creation. An element of nature, the sun is known simply as &quot;Sun&quot; (usually trascribed &quot;Re&quot; or &quot;Ra&quot;). As the newly risen &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. [Memphis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memphis,_Egypt) had [yet another interpretation](http://books.google.com/books?id=6KUdBAAAQBAJ&amp;q=creation#v=onepage&amp;q=ptah&amp;f=false) which is very similar to that of Heliopolis, except that **Ptah** served as the intermediary through which Atum's will was given form:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; But much older is Ptah, who enlivened all the gods as well as their life-forces through this heart and through this tongue ... His Ennead is in his presence in teeth and lips, which are the seed and hands of Atum: for Atum's Ennead evolved form his seed and his fingers, but the Ennead is teeth and lips in this mouth that pronounced the identity of everything and through which Shu and Tefnut emerged and gave bearth to the Ennead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. [Thebes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thebes,_Egypt) is the city that believed in Amun [taking the form of an animal, e.g. a goose or a serpent](https://books.google.com/books?id=0H3v0nPk1V4C&amp;q=thebes#v=snippet&amp;q=thebes&amp;f=false). I don't have a reference for the creation of Ra, but I assume it goes hand-in-hand with the creation of the world:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; The Thebans did not reject the Ogdoad altogether, but placed Amun as its sole creator: he was the &quot;First One Who Gave Birth to the First Ones.&quot; One version of the myth depicts him as a serpent, Amun-Khamutef (&quot;He Who Has Completed his Moment&quot;), living in the waters of Nun. However, it is suggested elsewhere that he emitted a mighty honk, like a goose, which burst into the stillness of the universe, causing a cosmic reaction by which the Ogdoad and the Ennead were formed.&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; The Thebans developed a distinct theology in which Amun was concealed even from the gods, existing somewhere beyond the natural world. It was thought that a creator had to stand apart from his creation, and Amun, the &quot;hidden&quot; god, suited this role. The texts summarized Amun's mystery and power:&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; &gt; &quot;He is hidden from the gods, and his aspect is unknown. He is farther than the sky, he is deeper than the Duat. No god knows his true appearance ... no one testifies to him accurately. He is too secret to uncover his awesomeness, he is too great to investigate, too powerful to know. Manifest one, whose identity is hidden ... as it is inaccessible.&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="1656" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="492" RevisionGUID="c14eeab4-d44f-4f6b-81e6-9ef126f05c98" CreationDate="2015-05-05T19:23:05.060" UserId="29" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="There is no clear explanation on this and opinions seem to vary, some of which are the following:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The name comes from a Giant called `Πάλλαντας` (**Pallantas**), whom Athena killed during the Titanomachy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Athena got that name because she was born out of Zeus' head by throbbing her spear.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The name is attributed to a friend of Athena, whom she killed accidentally, so she was named after her, in terms of recognition and so that she could be remembered.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Kontos Aleksandros**, a linguist and sociologist, believes the following interpretation to be the most precise:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The main significance of the verb `Πάλλω` is to shake a lottery, until the ejection of the results, which would be the people to take place as judges in the supreme court of Ancient Greece. Since it was feared that there would be a fraud in who would get selected, the people is charge of the draw would throb the lottery, until the names of the judges came out, due to that movement of the lottery jar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The primary importance therefore of **Pallas** is the motion that someone does in a legatee to achieve the draw. And **Pallas** means the custodian of the draw, the custodian of the Republic. And **Pallas** Athena was primarily the protector of democratic Athens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus informs us about Pallas, Athena's friend:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;They say that when Athena was born she was brought up by Triton,  who had a daughter Pallas; and that both girls practised the arts of war, but that once on a time they fell out; and when Pallas was about to strike a blow, Zeus in fear interposed the aegis, and Pallas, being startled, looked up, and so fell wounded by Athena. And being exceedingly grieved for her, Athena made a wooden image in her likeness, and wrapped the aegis, which she had feared, about the breast of it, and set it up beside Zeus and honored it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Apollodorus 3.12.2&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;More than one interpretations might be true in their own aspect. In the aspect of mythology, Apollodorus' version is correct. But in the aspect of reality (why the people who worshipped Athena named her **Pallas** and why the had to find a myth that gave her that name), Kontos Aleksandros' analysis might be true as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources (unfortunately in Greek): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* https://lykomidis.wordpress.com/2010/01/17/%CE%BF%CE%B9-%CF%80%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%83%CF%89%CE%BD%CF%85%CE%BC%CE%AF%CE%B5%CF%82-%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82-%CE%B8%CE%B5%CE%AC%CF%82-%CE%B1%CE%B8%CE%B7%CE%BD%CE%AC%CF%82/&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%91%CE%B8%CE%B7%CE%BD%CE%AC&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* http://www.class.uh.edu/MCL/Classics/Athena/Texts_Athena.html&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2658" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="495" RevisionGUID="34b52acf-b1c8-460c-b427-3e94258b65a2" CreationDate="2015-05-05T22:05:06.010" UserId="183" Text="I'll finally take a stab at this, as I hate seeing these awesome [tag:australian] questions go unanswered.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First, I took a look at [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_Serpent#Possible_origins_in_nature). It explains that the Rainbow Serpent may have been inspired by one or more of the following Australian snakes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The rough-scaled python&#xD;&#xA; - The taipan&#xD;&#xA; - The file snake&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These snakes could inspire cultures across the continent. Research tells me that the rough-scaled python is active in a small area of [Western Australia](http://www.arod.com.au/arod/reptilia/Squamata/Pythonidae/Morelia/carinata), though its range may be much larger. The taipan lives [in central Australia](http://inlandtaipan.weebly.com/habitat.html) as well as [the coast](http://www.ozanimals.com/Reptile/Coastal-Taipan/Oxyuranus/scutellatus%20.html) and [regions beyond](http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/580808/taipan). File snakes live in [aquatic areas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrochordidae) [across the region](http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1563896?uid=3739808&amp;uid=391386151&amp;uid=2&amp;uid=3&amp;uid=3739256&amp;uid=60&amp;sid=21106716459113). An extinct snake, *Wonambia*, would also have lived [in the plains](http://dinosaurs.about.com/od/predinosaurreptiles/p/Wonambi.htm); [other large species](http://www.prehistoric-wildlife.com/species/w/wonambi.html) existed. Given the geographic spread of these snakes, they all could have inspired cultures across Australia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I independently found [one of the Wikipedia sources](http://education.nationalgeographic.com/education/media/rainbow-serpent/?ar_a=1), which supports the conclusions (of course!), as well as [a related document](http://media.education.nationalgeographic.com:8080/assets/reference/assets/rainbow-serpent-1.pdf). [This](http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/breakfast/saving-the-rainbow-serpent/6407852) is the only other non-National Geographic source I could find. The evidence, though, stacks up to give a sensible conclusion: Snakes were everywhere in Australia, so they provided a common habitat component. And the big ones sure seemed powerful.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;[A related page.](http://www.bom.gov.au/iwk/climate_culture/rainbow_serp.shtml)&lt;/sup&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2661" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="496" RevisionGUID="26022deb-aa6e-4c77-8649-1ef7b1911a36" CreationDate="2015-05-05T23:23:00.010" UserId="98" Text="&gt; Although an Olympian, Hades preferred the Underworld and rarely left his kingdom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As seen in my [source][1], Hades loved being in his &quot;beloved&quot; Underworld rather than being in the outside world and Olympus, like all other gods. Yet it says that Hades occasionally and rarely left the Underworld. Other than the time he kidnapped Persephone, when would Hades leave the Underworld?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;   [1]:http://www.greekmythology.com/Olympians/Hades/hades.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2662" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="496" RevisionGUID="26022deb-aa6e-4c77-8649-1ef7b1911a36" CreationDate="2015-05-05T23:23:00.010" UserId="98" Text="When did Hades leave the Underworld" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2663" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="496" RevisionGUID="26022deb-aa6e-4c77-8649-1ef7b1911a36" CreationDate="2015-05-05T23:23:00.010" UserId="98" Text="|greek|hades|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2664" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="225" RevisionGUID="3f920f0d-80e1-4aae-b86d-bf80cf79c4db" CreationDate="2015-05-05T23:38:16.870" UserId="18" Comment="Tag  edit." Text="|greek|zeus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2665" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="225" RevisionGUID="3f920f0d-80e1-4aae-b86d-bf80cf79c4db" CreationDate="2015-05-05T23:38:16.870" Comment="Proposed by 18 approved by 98, 183 edit id of 130" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2666" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="225" RevisionGUID="c39483d4-5981-4628-a67e-6ea0f7a01f4d" CreationDate="2015-05-05T23:42:26.967" UserId="98" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2667" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="497" RevisionGUID="b6bee8ce-783d-4c09-84aa-67cc21583a4f" CreationDate="2015-05-05T23:43:54.033" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2668" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="498" RevisionGUID="d114fd87-5558-4976-99f9-90770c3d56d8" CreationDate="2015-05-05T23:43:54.033" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2669" PostHistoryTypeId="7" PostId="448" RevisionGUID="37ddf3c9-572e-40b7-a7ba-2320a8339c4b" CreationDate="2015-05-05T23:46:11.757" UserId="183" Comment="Rollback to [266fd33d-1d7b-4e50-ade7-3ce7b64f1dbf]" Text="How old was Merlin when he died?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2670" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="491" RevisionGUID="0ca39507-4bfe-467f-a4dc-64ebc1791d88" CreationDate="2015-05-05T23:46:17.057" UserId="98" Comment="added 5 characters in body" Text="Why is Athena often referred to as Pallas when it comes to her warrior side? In one myth, it is said that Pallas was her father and another that Pallas was a friend she sparred with and accidentally killed her." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2671" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="479" RevisionGUID="5a819c42-5746-4a96-8312-dbeed7c47240" CreationDate="2015-05-05T23:48:14.030" UserId="98" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="This is the offshoot I mentioned of [this question](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/448/how-old-was-merlin-when-he-died-at-the-hand-of-niviane-or-the-lady-of-the-lake).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [this](http://www.timelessmyths.com/arthurian/merlin.html#DeadMerlin),&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In a few tales, a maiden or a fay had trapped Merlin in an enchantment. The most famous was the Lady of the Lake. Again, there are few versions involving his death at the hand of the Lady of the Lake.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Lady of the Lake was a powerful sorceress and the lady of Otherworldly realm, hidden by the illusionary lake. The Lady of the Lake was known by several other names, such as Niniane, Viviane and Nimue. Further confusion resulted when some author listed several women with title the Lady of the Lake.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Following [a link](http://www.timelessmyths.com/arthurian/women.html#Lake),&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There seemed to be several &quot;Lady of the Lake&quot;. The most important Lady of the Lake was Niniane (also known as Viviane, Vivien or Nimue). Some even say that Morgan le Fay was also the Lady of the Lake, though most often Morgan was referred to as one of nine sorceresses of Avalon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even more detail is given [here](http://www.kingarthursknights.com/others/ladylake.asp). I looked at [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_of_the_Lake) and found:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Post-Vulgate Cycle's second Lady of the Lake is called Ninianne, and her story is nearly identical to the one in the Lancelot-Grail, though it adds her bestowal of the magic sword Excalibur to Arthur. Sir Thomas Malory also uses both Ladies of the Lake in his Le Morte d'Arthur; he leaves the first one unnamed and calls the second one Nimue.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems like the &quot;some author&quot; mentioned in the first quote is Sir Thomas Malory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any connection between the two Ladies of the Lake, given that Malory implies that they are separate figures?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2673" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="489" RevisionGUID="63a3fa51-accc-463a-97eb-2e4626ab5d21" CreationDate="2015-05-05T23:49:11.037" UserId="98" Comment="deleted 8 characters in body" Text="Giants are said to be element-based creatures. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Giants are extremely strong and are associated with cold and frost.&lt;sup&gt;[1]&lt;/sup&gt; One giant is supposed to bring about the wind (Hræsvelgr), while another is associated with the sea (Ægir) and yet another with fire (Logi).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sub&gt;source: http://www.germanicmythology.com/original/cosmology4.html &lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[1]: Vafthrüthnismal 33 and Grimnismal 31.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;So, frost giants come under the category of giants.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, the jotun (jǫtunn). A Jotun is a giant with superhuman strength; their homeland is Jotunheim. Ægir is said to be the sea jotun. And from the above quote, it is clear that Ægir was a giant. Hence confirming that the terms jotun and giants are very same.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In modern Icelandic, *jötunn* has kept its original meaning. In Old English, the cognate to ***jötunn*** is ***eoten***, whence modern English ***ettin***. Hence ettin is *another* term for giants, which evolved from the ancient roots of its original term.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;This extract from the Prose Edda book Skáldskaparmál, suggest that trolls were opposites to the giants (emphasis mine).&#xD;&#xA;&gt;They call me a troll,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;    moon of the earth-Hrungnir &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;    **wealth sucker of the giant**,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;    destroyer of the storm-sun &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;    beloved follower of the seeress,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The giants were often involved in incidents of higher degree (eg. battles with gods) whereas trolls live isolated and are not involved (not as much of the giants) with the higher degree incidents. Another major difference is that, as I have mentioned earlier in the answer, giants are element based. Trolls however, were not.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Further reading: http://netlibrary.net/articles/j%C3%B6tunn&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;	&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2674" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="414" RevisionGUID="49b7d6e5-69e5-4a2f-ace9-9f97c002307a" CreationDate="2015-05-05T23:49:44.683" UserId="98" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2675" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="499" RevisionGUID="0896d30d-8368-44ca-bc1a-8f468ba6616a" CreationDate="2015-05-05T23:57:44.283" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="In the african folklore epic *Muwindo*, Muwindo goes to see his aunt Iyangura after his father attempts to murder him. However, the husband of Iyangury, Mukiti, does not want Muwindo to do so and blocks Muwindo's way to his aunt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Mukiti refused to let you pass.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(pg 333, *A Treasury of African Folklore*)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is this? As far as I can tell, Mukiti has no good reason for doing this (Muwindo and Iyangury are family, and it should be normal for them to visit each other)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2676" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="499" RevisionGUID="0896d30d-8368-44ca-bc1a-8f468ba6616a" CreationDate="2015-05-05T23:57:44.283" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="Why doesn't Mukiti want Mwindo to visit his aunt?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2677" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="499" RevisionGUID="0896d30d-8368-44ca-bc1a-8f468ba6616a" CreationDate="2015-05-05T23:57:44.283" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="|folklore|mwindo|african-folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2679" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="500" RevisionGUID="12b9dcc3-c581-4183-8237-cb4ebaa55c2b" CreationDate="2015-05-06T00:02:06.087" UserId="183" Text="As written [here](http://www.timelessmyths.com/arthurian/vulgate.html),&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Quest of the Holy Grail introduced the new Grail hero: Galahad, the son of Lancelot and Elaine, daughter of King Pelles. Galahad with his two companions, Sir Perceval and Sir Bors were the only Knights of the Round Table to complete the mysterious quest. It is only Galahad achieved the ultimate spiritual enlightenment of the Grail mystery. The story ended with the death of Galahad and Perceval. With Galahad's death, the Grail vanished.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; With the disappearance of the Grail from Britain, it also meant the withdrawal of God's grace from Britain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems quite odd that the Holy Grail, one of the most sacred relics in Arthurian literature, should disappear for all eternity and never re-appear. Does the Vulgate Cycle (also known as the Lancelot-Grail Cycle) discuss a possible return of the Holy Grail to Britain - or anywhere else, for that matter?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2680" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="500" RevisionGUID="12b9dcc3-c581-4183-8237-cb4ebaa55c2b" CreationDate="2015-05-06T00:02:06.087" UserId="183" Text="According to the Vulgate Cycle, can the Holy Grail ever re-appear in Britain?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2681" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="500" RevisionGUID="12b9dcc3-c581-4183-8237-cb4ebaa55c2b" CreationDate="2015-05-06T00:02:06.087" UserId="183" Text="|arthurian|christianity|holy-grail|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2682" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="495" RevisionGUID="07482999-39fd-424f-888d-27dd9d35a7e5" CreationDate="2015-05-06T00:26:08.580" UserId="183" Comment="added 298 characters in body" Text="I'll finally take a stab at this, as I hate seeing these awesome [tag:australian] questions go unanswered.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First, I took a look at [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_Serpent#Possible_origins_in_nature). It explains that the Rainbow Serpent may have been inspired by one or more of the following Australian snakes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The rough-scaled python&#xD;&#xA; - The taipan&#xD;&#xA; - The file snake&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These snakes could inspire cultures across the continent. Research tells me that the rough-scaled python is active in a small area of [Western Australia](http://www.arod.com.au/arod/reptilia/Squamata/Pythonidae/Morelia/carinata), though its range may be much larger. The taipan lives [in central Australia](http://inlandtaipan.weebly.com/habitat.html) as well as [the coast](http://www.ozanimals.com/Reptile/Coastal-Taipan/Oxyuranus/scutellatus%20.html) and [regions beyond](http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/580808/taipan). File snakes live in [aquatic areas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrochordidae) [across the region](http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1563896?uid=3739808&amp;uid=391386151&amp;uid=2&amp;uid=3&amp;uid=3739256&amp;uid=60&amp;sid=21106716459113). An extinct snake, *Wonambia*, would also have lived [in the plains](http://dinosaurs.about.com/od/predinosaurreptiles/p/Wonambi.htm); [other large species](http://www.prehistoric-wildlife.com/species/w/wonambi.html) existed. Given the geographic spread of these snakes, they all could have inspired cultures across Australia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I independently found [one of the Wikipedia sources](http://education.nationalgeographic.com/education/media/rainbow-serpent/?ar_a=1), which supports the conclusions (of course!), as well as [a related document](http://media.education.nationalgeographic.com:8080/assets/reference/assets/rainbow-serpent-1.pdf). [This](http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/breakfast/saving-the-rainbow-serpent/6407852) is the only other non-National Geographic source I could find. The evidence, though, stacks up to give a sensible conclusion: Snakes were everywhere in Australia, so they provided a common habitat component. And the big ones sure seemed powerful.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One issue with this hypothesis is that some of the snakes have small geographic distributions - just look at the range of the rough-scaled python! There are other species of snakes in Australia, so they could make up the difference, but the limits of the three given snakes are a tad worrisome.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;[A related page.](http://www.bom.gov.au/iwk/climate_culture/rainbow_serp.shtml)&lt;/sup&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2683" PostHistoryTypeId="11" PostId="466" RevisionGUID="f8813bfd-d8b9-4cbb-8dcd-fc0fbd2f242c" CreationDate="2015-05-06T00:35:19.360" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:29,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;naltipar&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:144,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Robotnik&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:79,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ero Sɘnnin&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:98,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;PythonMaster&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:183,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;HDE 226868&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="2684" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="493" RevisionGUID="af2f6511-35c5-4075-b4b4-37044815aef9" CreationDate="2015-05-06T00:43:39.240" UserId="171" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body" Text="The five parts of the Egyptian soul were the Ren, the Ba, the Ka, the Sheut, and the Ib. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The Ren was the **name** given to a person at birth. Egyptians believed it was part of a person's soul and that  it would live for as long as that name was spoken or the person remembered.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The Sheut was the person's **shadow** or silhouette. Egyptians believed that the shadow, somehow, contained part of the essence of the person.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The _Ib_ was a metaphysical **heart** and to ancient Egyptians it was the focus of emotion, thought, will and intention. They understood it as the seat for the soul.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The _Ba_ was the notion of **personality**. Everything that makes a person unique.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The _Ka_ was the **vital fire** or spark, that distinguishes living people from dead (warm vs. cold).&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2686" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="466" RevisionGUID="cd83dfbd-6a01-4d3d-bb6a-1cbaf14bab24" CreationDate="2015-05-06T00:56:02.153" UserId="198" Comment="added 17 characters in body" Text="I searched a lot but I couldn't find a creature that is similar to a frost phoenix or a frost bird, or a giant creature similar to a frost bird for example.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's for a project (I like to keep real mythology in my story) and I want something as close as this as possible." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2687" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="498" RevisionGUID="f466fdb4-af8f-4f3e-b752-68a739588daf" CreationDate="2015-05-06T01:34:11.773" UserId="98" Comment="added 48 characters in body" Text="For questions about Hindu mythology and legends." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2688" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="498" RevisionGUID="f466fdb4-af8f-4f3e-b752-68a739588daf" CreationDate="2015-05-06T01:34:11.773" Comment="Proposed by 98 approved by 38, 11 edit id of 131" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2689" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="501" RevisionGUID="99caf810-499b-4fee-af13-1f44e7bd6b29" CreationDate="2015-05-06T01:38:02.353" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="There are many (many many many) different versions of the grail legend&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;, so there are two different ways of answering this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you go by the &quot;Christianized&quot; version of the story, the grail is returned to heaven, because that's where it belongs (it's god's grail, and doesn't belong to humans).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(I will add quotes for this part either tonight or tomorrow, I just need to find them)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you go by the older version of the story, the quest for the holy grail represents an attempt to heal a king, which is connected to healing the kingdom (the health of the land is connected to the health of the kind):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (a) There is a general consensus of evidence to the effect that the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; main object of the Quest is the restoration to health and vigour of a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; King suffering from infirmity caused by wounds, sickness, or old age;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; (b) and whose infirmity, for some mysterious and unexplained reason,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reacts disastrously upon his kingdom, either depriving it of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; vegetation, or exposing it to the ravages of war.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; (c) In two cases it is definitely stated that the King will be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; restored to youthful vigour and beauty.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; (d) In both cases where we find Gawain as the hero of the story, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in one connected with Perceval, the misfortune which has fallen upon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the country is that of a prolonged drought, which has destroyed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; vegetation, and left the land Waste; the effect of the hero's question&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is to restore the waters to their channel, and render the land once&#xD;&#xA;&gt; more fertile.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; (e) In three cases the misfortunes and wasting of the land are the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; result of war, and directly caused by the hero's failure to ask the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; question; we are not dealing with an antecedent condition. This, in my&#xD;&#xA;&gt; opinion, constitutes a marked difference between the two groups, which&#xD;&#xA;&gt; has not hitherto received the attention it deserves. One aim of our&#xD;&#xA;&gt; present investigation will be to determine which of these two forms&#xD;&#xA;&gt; should be considered the elder.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Weston, Jessie, [From Ritual to Romance][1]&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;. )&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to that (older) version, once the king/land is healed, the grail is no longer needed, and thus vanished.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What the grail represents is a highly debated question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; The reason why the online encyclopedia cited in the question doesn't have this information is that online encyclopedias mix and match different versions of myths, without even thinking about where those versions came from. They aren't alone in this; most interpretations of myths (e.g. children's books, Percy Jackson) do this as well. Reading the original versions of myths is often more interesting than reading encyclopedias, as you learn the author's original intent and wording.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; This book is somewhat out of date, and the main theory in the book -- that the grail legend comes from religious rituals designed to make the land fertile -- has been disputed (to say the least), but this part of it's analysis is sound and supported by textual analysis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/4090" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2690" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="502" RevisionGUID="034db173-c68a-482c-98b2-28355b30ab45" CreationDate="2015-05-06T01:38:49.463" UserId="11" Text="Where did Morgana le Fay come from? From where did she get her power?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As the primary antagonist of many Arthurian legends, it always seems to me that she's just there because she's always been there, she has so much power; but no one else (except Merlin) seems to have access to this sort of power. What's her origin story?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2691" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="502" RevisionGUID="034db173-c68a-482c-98b2-28355b30ab45" CreationDate="2015-05-06T01:38:49.463" UserId="11" Text="Where did Morgana le Fay come from?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2692" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="502" RevisionGUID="034db173-c68a-482c-98b2-28355b30ab45" CreationDate="2015-05-06T01:38:49.463" UserId="11" Text="|arthurian|magic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2693" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="503" RevisionGUID="52cd600c-c92a-482b-a4fe-61d0d84f03ec" CreationDate="2015-05-06T01:45:28.380" UserId="183" Text="There are a few different accounts, detailed [here](http://www.timelessmyths.com/arthurian/women.html#Morgan):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. She was the half sister of none other than King Arthur himself, the daughter of King Gorlois and Igraine. She was most likely the aunt of Mordred, though one or two accounts give her as his mother.&#xD;&#xA; 2. She was one of nine sisters living in the land of Avalon (of course), who had magical, mystical powers, learned from Merlin.&#xD;&#xA; 3. She was a (perhaps Celtic) goddess, such as Morrigan or Modron, or else a fairy queen. Her magical powers should be self-explanatory from these.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This](http://www.kingarthursknights.com/others/morganlefay.asp) and [this](http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/392293/Morgan-le-Fay) confirm the stories that she was one of the nine queens of Avalon, and that she learned from Merlin." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2696" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="501" RevisionGUID="a8eb73d3-685b-4467-85f8-103574c8a876" CreationDate="2015-05-06T02:02:18.903" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added quotes" Text="There are many (many many many) different versions of the grail legend&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;, so there are two different ways of answering this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you go by the &quot;Christianized&quot; version of the story, the grail is returned to heaven, because that's where it belongs (it's god's grail, and doesn't belong to humans).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...for in that place was part of the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, that Joseph of Arimathea brought into this land, and there himself lay in that rich bed. And that was the same spear that Longius smote our Lord to the heart; and King Pellam was nigh of Joseph's kin, and that was the most worshipful man that lived in those days, and great pity it was of his hurt, for through that stroke, turned to great dole, tray and tene.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And therewith he [Galahad] kneeled down to-fore the table and made his prayers, and then suddenly his soul departed to Jesu Christ, and a great multitude of angels bare his soul up to heaven, that the two fellows might well behold it. Also the two fellows saw come from heaven an hand, but they saw not the body. And then it came right to the Vessel, and took it and the spear, and so bare it up to heaven. Sithen was there never man so hardy to say that he had seen the Sangreal. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Malory, Thomas, Le Morte d'Arthur [Part 1](http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/1251) and [Part 2](http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/1252)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you go by the older version of the story, the quest for the holy grail represents an attempt to heal a king, which is connected to healing the kingdom (the health of the land is connected to the health of the king):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (a) There is a general consensus of evidence to the effect that the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; main object of the Quest is the restoration to health and vigour of a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; King suffering from infirmity caused by wounds, sickness, or old age;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; (b) and whose infirmity, for some mysterious and unexplained reason,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reacts disastrously upon his kingdom, either depriving it of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; vegetation, or exposing it to the ravages of war.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; (c) In two cases it is definitely stated that the King will be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; restored to youthful vigour and beauty.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; (d) In both cases where we find Gawain as the hero of the story, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in one connected with Perceval, the misfortune which has fallen upon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the country is that of a prolonged drought, which has destroyed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; vegetation, and left the land Waste; the effect of the hero's question&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is to restore the waters to their channel, and render the land once&#xD;&#xA;&gt; more fertile.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; (e) In three cases the misfortunes and wasting of the land are the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; result of war, and directly caused by the hero's failure to ask the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; question; we are not dealing with an antecedent condition. This, in my&#xD;&#xA;&gt; opinion, constitutes a marked difference between the two groups, which&#xD;&#xA;&gt; has not hitherto received the attention it deserves. One aim of our&#xD;&#xA;&gt; present investigation will be to determine which of these two forms&#xD;&#xA;&gt; should be considered the elder.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Weston, Jessie, [From Ritual to Romance][1]&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;. )&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to that (older) version, once the king/land is healed, the grail is no longer needed, and thus vanished.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What the grail represents is a highly debated question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; The reason why the online encyclopedia cited in the question doesn't have this information is that online encyclopedias mix and match different versions of myths, without even thinking about where those versions came from. They aren't alone in this; most interpretations of myths (e.g. children's books, Percy Jackson) do this as well. Reading the original versions of myths is often more interesting than reading encyclopedias, as you learn the author's original intent and wording.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; This book is somewhat out of date, and the main theory in the book -- that the grail legend comes from religious rituals designed to make the land fertile -- has been disputed (to say the least), but this part of it's analysis is sound and supported by textual analysis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/4090" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2698" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="504" RevisionGUID="3664809c-cf3e-42af-a1a7-850506f9d13e" CreationDate="2015-05-06T02:26:19.023" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2699" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="505" RevisionGUID="dff286f4-28d7-4fee-b98f-1d953dba0c2e" CreationDate="2015-05-06T02:26:19.023" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2700" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="506" RevisionGUID="7a9f7916-6c96-4357-8817-e559ed0c5041" CreationDate="2015-05-06T02:27:56.113" UserId="18" Text="In [this answer](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/356/18), I saw this in a quote-in-a-quote:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; during the Third Age [equivalent to the Age in which the Popol Vuh places the invention of shooting out such magical darts], the sun stood still for one full day without moving from its place; - [*Esotericism of the Popol Vuh*: Chapter 10](http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/popolvuh/pv-10.htm)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This caught my eye because the sun stands still in [Joshua 10](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua+10&amp;version=NIV) in the Bible as well, so I went looking for this event in the Popol Vuh itself. However, I'm having difficulty finding it. Could someone point me to its location in the Popol Vuh so I can look at the surrounding context?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2701" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="506" RevisionGUID="7a9f7916-6c96-4357-8817-e559ed0c5041" CreationDate="2015-05-06T02:27:56.113" UserId="18" Text="Where does the Sun stand still in the Popol Vuh?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2702" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="506" RevisionGUID="7a9f7916-6c96-4357-8817-e559ed0c5041" CreationDate="2015-05-06T02:27:56.113" UserId="18" Text="|popol-vuh|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2703" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="506" RevisionGUID="06688e7f-454f-4e76-b27b-0a8bb8997572" CreationDate="2015-05-06T03:33:11.897" UserId="18" Comment="added 215 characters in body" Text="In [this answer](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/356/18), I saw this in a quote-in-a-quote:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; during the Third Age [equivalent to the Age in which the Popol Vuh places the invention of shooting out such magical darts], the sun stood still for one full day without moving from its place; - [*Esotericism of the Popol Vuh*: Chapter 10](http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/popolvuh/pv-10.htm)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This caught my eye because the sun stands still in [Joshua 10](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua+10&amp;version=NIV) in the Bible as well, so I went looking for this event in the Popol Vuh itself. However, I'm having difficulty finding it. Could someone point me to its location in the Popol Vuh so I can look at the surrounding context?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Apparently](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/506/where-does-the-sun-stand-still-in-the-popol-vuh#comment2634_506), this does not appear in the Popol Vuh. Where then does it appear? What myth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2704" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="505" RevisionGUID="81bf0e26-3de9-4198-b8a6-b3fad98cd9ae" CreationDate="2015-05-06T03:36:32.820" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 50 characters in body" Text="An African epic from the Nyanga of central Africa." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2705" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="505" RevisionGUID="81bf0e26-3de9-4198-b8a6-b3fad98cd9ae" CreationDate="2015-05-06T03:36:32.820" Comment="Proposed by 62 approved by 11, 38 edit id of 133" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2706" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="487" RevisionGUID="73397bfc-bda4-4376-bd53-1e494eed0880" CreationDate="2015-05-06T03:36:45.710" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 119 characters in body" Text="You can read a translation on [SacredTexts.com][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/index.htm#contents" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2707" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="487" RevisionGUID="73397bfc-bda4-4376-bd53-1e494eed0880" CreationDate="2015-05-06T03:36:45.710" Comment="Proposed by 62 approved by 11, 38 edit id of 134" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2708" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="504" RevisionGUID="97da1161-b73a-4920-8a36-1ed5431a2e91" CreationDate="2015-05-06T03:36:51.350" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 50 characters in body" Text="An African epic from the Nyanga of central Africa." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2709" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="504" RevisionGUID="97da1161-b73a-4920-8a36-1ed5431a2e91" CreationDate="2015-05-06T03:36:51.350" Comment="Proposed by 62 approved by 11, 38 edit id of 132" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2712" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="507" RevisionGUID="7eb8e741-1f28-4cc5-9798-9790c8ff6e62" CreationDate="2015-05-06T04:42:23.443" UserId="108" Text="Most versions of the Arthurian legend relates that, after the [Battle of Camlann](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Camlann), a dying King Arthur ordered a surviving knight - usually [Sir Griflet](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griflet) or [Sir Bedivere](Bedivere) - to dispose of [Excalibur](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excalibur) in a nearby lake. The knight however hides the sword twice and lies to Arthur, who sees through the deception, before finally throwing Excalibur into the lake. Then a hand reaches out from the water and snatches it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [Sir Thomas Malroy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Malory)'s [*Le Morte d'Arthur*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Morte_d%27Arthur), the scene is described as:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Sir Bedivere departed, and went to the sword, and lightly took it up, and went to the water side; and there he bound the girdle about the hilts, and then he threw the sword as far into the water as he might; and there came an arm and an hand above the water and met it, and caught it, and so shook it thrice and brandished, and then vanished away the hand with the sword in the water. So Sir Bedivere came again to the king, and told him what he saw.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is commonly said that the sword was thus returned to the [Lady of the Lake](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_of_the_Lake), but how is that known? It doesn't seem to be the same lake where Arthur received the sword from originally. Moreover, which lady would it be? Nyneve, Nymue, or some other unnamed entity?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2713" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="507" RevisionGUID="7eb8e741-1f28-4cc5-9798-9790c8ff6e62" CreationDate="2015-05-06T04:42:23.443" UserId="108" Text="Who was Arthur's sword, Excalibur, returned to?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2714" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="507" RevisionGUID="7eb8e741-1f28-4cc5-9798-9790c8ff6e62" CreationDate="2015-05-06T04:42:23.443" UserId="108" Text="|arthurian|welsh|british|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2715" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="506" RevisionGUID="9e0c352d-b553-4d5d-ad30-bcd48a4a6bcd" CreationDate="2015-05-06T05:30:03.003" UserId="18" Comment="deleted 9 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="In [this answer](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/356/18), I saw this in a quote-in-a-quote:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; during the Third Age [equivalent to the Age in which the Popol Vuh places the invention of shooting out such magical darts], the sun stood still for one full day without moving from its place; - [*Esotericism of the Popol Vuh*: Chapter 10](http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/popolvuh/pv-10.htm)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This caught my eye because the sun stands still in [Joshua 10](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua+10&amp;version=NIV) in the Bible as well, so I went looking for this event in the Popol Vuh itself. However, I had difficulty finding it and was recently enlightened to the fact that, [apparently](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/506/where-does-the-sun-stand-still-in-the-popol-vuh#comment2634_506), this does not appear in the Popol Vuh.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where then does it appear? What Native American myth has the sun stand still for a full day?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2716" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="506" RevisionGUID="9e0c352d-b553-4d5d-ad30-bcd48a4a6bcd" CreationDate="2015-05-06T05:30:03.003" UserId="18" Comment="deleted 9 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="In what Native American myth does the Sun stand still?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2717" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="506" RevisionGUID="9e0c352d-b553-4d5d-ad30-bcd48a4a6bcd" CreationDate="2015-05-06T05:30:03.003" UserId="18" Comment="deleted 9 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|native-american|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2719" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="508" RevisionGUID="0ca11e2f-18c4-46de-b0b3-8112979f25d6" CreationDate="2015-05-06T06:25:06.197" UserId="108" Text="This tale appears to come from [Toltec](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toltec) mythology, related to us by the [Aztec](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec) and preserved in later Mexican source. The Ixtlilxochitl your source cites is almost certainly [Fernando de Alva Cortés Ixtlilxochitl](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernando_de_Alva_Cort%C3%A9s_Ixtlilxochitl), an early modern native historian from [New Spain](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Spain). He wrote that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the year 8 Tochtli, which was 1,347 years after the second calamity and 4,779 years since the creation of the world, it is recorded in their history that **the sun stood still one natural day without moving**, and a myth evolved wherein a mosquito saw the sun suspended in the air in a pensive mood and said, &quot;Lord of the world, why are you standing still and why are you in such deep thought? Why are you not doing the work you are supposed to do? Do you want to destroy the world as before?&quot; And the mosquito said many other things to the sun, but the sun still did not move. The mosquito then stung the sun on the leg, and seeing that his leg had been stung, the sun began again to move along its course as before.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is clearly the same story described in your link. The preceding paragraphs make it clear that Ixtlilxochitl was, or at least thought he was, writing about the beliefs of the Toltecs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Tultecas, consisting of seven men and their wives ...  they wandered for 104 years in different parts of the land until they settled in Huehue Tlapallan, their homeland.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; -  [*The Historical Works of Fernando de Alva Ixtlilxochitl.* Edited and annotated by Alfredo Chavero, 1892.](http://www.ancientamerica.org/library/media/382chapter11.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since pretty much all we know about Toltec mythology are second hand from the Aztecs, who viewed themselves as the Toltecs' successors, you could also consider this myth to be Aztec." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2720" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="509" RevisionGUID="b3a7e69e-1f03-4e06-b178-875c74910fe2" CreationDate="2015-05-06T07:24:50.303" UserId="57" Text="Hades was present when Hercules besieged Pylos, presumably collecting the souls of the dead:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And so suffered monstrous Hades even as the rest a bitter arrow, when this same man, the son of Zeus that beareth the aegis, smote him in Pylos amid the dead, and gave him over to pains. But he went to the house of Zeus and to high Olympus with grief at heart, pierced through with pains; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hom. Il. 5.395](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hom.+Il.+5.395&amp;fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In another instance, Hades visits Olympus to bring accusations against [Asclepius][1]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [4.71.2] Consequently, the myth goes on to say, Hades brought accusation against Asclepius, charging him before Zeus of acting to the detriment of his own province, for, he said, the number of the dead was steadily diminishing, now that men were being healed by Asclepius.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [4.71.3] So Zeus, in indignation, slew Asclepius with his thunderbolt, but Apollo, indignant at the slaying of Asclepius, murdered the Cyclopes who had forged the thunderbolt for Zeus; but at the death of the Cyclopes Zeus was again indignant and laid a command upon Apollo that he should serve as a labourer for a human being and that this should be the punishment he should receive fro him for his crimes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Bibliotheca historica, Diodorus Siculus](http://www.theoi.com/Text/DiodorusSiculus4D.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asclepius" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2721" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="510" RevisionGUID="a1bf2c51-515a-48be-ad22-e5798f377dc0" CreationDate="2015-05-06T08:32:49.413" UserId="53" Text="Excalibur was returned to the lake from whence it came.  Most accounts have it that Sir Bedivere  took it there from Camlan.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Malory is the only source that I know of that mentions an arm taking the sword.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the monks of Glastonbury Abbey, it was returned at what is now Pomparles Bridge over the River Brue.  Just to the southwest of the Isle of Avalon.  In the dark ages, this was undrained marshland.  The whole area would have been a collection of lakes that changed position with the seasons.  Therefore, almost anywhere could have been described as being the same lake as the origin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many other myths of geomancy surrounding this part of the world.  As mentioned in my answer to &lt;a href=&quot;http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/183/what-species-is-the-lady-of-the-lake/191#191&quot;&gt;this question&lt;/a&gt; the lake itself could easily have been regarded as possessing female energy, particularly at this location.  This would mean that the answer to &quot;*to whom was Excalibur returned?*&quot; being &quot;*the lake herself*&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Indeed, the area flooded every year until the drainage was improved in the 1970s, each year seeing floods in different parts of the moors.  And as seen in 2014, can still flood badly." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2724" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="509" RevisionGUID="3e473411-cc52-4c89-b730-038037259e17" CreationDate="2015-05-06T10:17:50.613" UserId="57" Comment="added 300 characters in body" Text="Hades leaving his cozy domain was rare, but not unheard of. Persephone wasn't the only reason that compelled him to take a trip above ground, she wasn't even his only kidnapping; [Leuce][1] suffered a similar fate.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kidnappings aside, Hades was present when Hercules besieged Pylos, presumably collecting the souls of the dead:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And so suffered monstrous Hades even as the rest a bitter arrow, when this same man, the son of Zeus that beareth the aegis, smote him in Pylos amid the dead, and gave him over to pains. But he went to the house of Zeus and to high Olympus with grief at heart, pierced through with pains; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hom. Il. 5.395](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hom.+Il.+5.395&amp;fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In another instance, Hades visits Olympus to bring accusations against [Asclepius][2]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [4.71.2] Consequently, the myth goes on to say, Hades brought accusation against Asclepius, charging him before Zeus of acting to the detriment of his own province, for, he said, the number of the dead was steadily diminishing, now that men were being healed by Asclepius.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [4.71.3] So Zeus, in indignation, slew Asclepius with his thunderbolt, but Apollo, indignant at the slaying of Asclepius, murdered the Cyclopes who had forged the thunderbolt for Zeus; but at the death of the Cyclopes Zeus was again indignant and laid a command upon Apollo that he should serve as a labourer for a human being and that this should be the punishment he should receive fro him for his crimes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Bibliotheca historica, Diodorus Siculus](http://www.theoi.com/Text/DiodorusSiculus4D.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leuce_%28mythology%29&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asclepius" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2726" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="496" RevisionGUID="d2c4eea6-416f-46e8-99e8-1c52077495ff" CreationDate="2015-05-06T10:49:19.047" UserId="57" Comment="edited title" Text="When did Hades leave the Underworld?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2727" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="495" RevisionGUID="7406ba06-f983-475a-bf38-a0168d8213fd" CreationDate="2015-05-06T10:56:10.870" UserId="57" Comment="meta commentary doesn't belong in posts, it's nothing but a distraction. " Text="First, I took a look at [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_Serpent#Possible_origins_in_nature). It explains that the Rainbow Serpent may have been inspired by one or more of the following Australian snakes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The rough-scaled python&#xD;&#xA; - The taipan&#xD;&#xA; - The file snake&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These snakes could inspire cultures across the continent. Research tells me that the rough-scaled python is active in a small area of [Western Australia](http://www.arod.com.au/arod/reptilia/Squamata/Pythonidae/Morelia/carinata), though its range may be much larger. The taipan lives [in central Australia](http://inlandtaipan.weebly.com/habitat.html) as well as [the coast](http://www.ozanimals.com/Reptile/Coastal-Taipan/Oxyuranus/scutellatus%20.html) and [regions beyond](http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/580808/taipan). File snakes live in [aquatic areas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrochordidae) [across the region](http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1563896?uid=3739808&amp;uid=391386151&amp;uid=2&amp;uid=3&amp;uid=3739256&amp;uid=60&amp;sid=21106716459113). An extinct snake, *Wonambia*, would also have lived [in the plains](http://dinosaurs.about.com/od/predinosaurreptiles/p/Wonambi.htm); [other large species](http://www.prehistoric-wildlife.com/species/w/wonambi.html) existed. Given the geographic spread of these snakes, they all could have inspired cultures across Australia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I independently found [one of the Wikipedia sources](http://education.nationalgeographic.com/education/media/rainbow-serpent/?ar_a=1), which supports the conclusions (of course!), as well as [a related document](http://media.education.nationalgeographic.com:8080/assets/reference/assets/rainbow-serpent-1.pdf). [This](http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/breakfast/saving-the-rainbow-serpent/6407852) is the only other non-National Geographic source I could find. The evidence, though, stacks up to give a sensible conclusion: Snakes were everywhere in Australia, so they provided a common habitat component. And the big ones sure seemed powerful.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One issue with this hypothesis is that some of the snakes have small geographic distributions - just look at the range of the rough-scaled python! There are other species of snakes in Australia, so they could make up the difference, but the limits of the three given snakes are a tad worrisome.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;[A related page.](http://www.bom.gov.au/iwk/climate_culture/rainbow_serp.shtml)&lt;/sup&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2729" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="511" RevisionGUID="b91275b3-5a9d-48af-b24d-5d883e075856" CreationDate="2015-05-06T12:00:42.017" UserId="65" Text="It's a well known fact that the Greek Gods resided in the fabled mountain of Olympus. However most mythology was created based on factual stories that have been twisted or altered. Why is Mount Olympus so important to the Greeks that the Gods would live there?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2730" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="511" RevisionGUID="b91275b3-5a9d-48af-b24d-5d883e075856" CreationDate="2015-05-06T12:00:42.017" UserId="65" Text="Why were the Greek Gods on Olympus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2731" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="511" RevisionGUID="b91275b3-5a9d-48af-b24d-5d883e075856" CreationDate="2015-05-06T12:00:42.017" UserId="65" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2732" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="512" RevisionGUID="ccc6e1be-cda3-46fa-a5f1-ed2f52d7afc4" CreationDate="2015-05-06T12:43:17.630" UserId="36" Text="###The Olympians defeated the Titans on [Mt. Olympus][1] and decided to build their kingdom at the scene of their greatest victory.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Titanomachy][2] (the great war between the Olympians and the Titans) took place on Olympus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.greek-gods.info/ancient-greece/mount-olympus/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.greekmyths-greekmythology.com/titans-and-titanomachy/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2733" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="512" RevisionGUID="23059bca-5fe3-4dba-aadb-56657ad512e1" CreationDate="2015-05-06T12:56:10.093" UserId="36" Comment="added 398 characters in body" Text="###The Olympians defeated the Titans on [Mt. Olympus][1] and decided to build their kingdom at the scene of their greatest victory.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Titanomachy][2] (the great war between the Olympians and the Titans) took place on Olympus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are some theories that the Greeks assumed Olympus was the seat of power for their gods as it was so high it _touched the clouds_. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of all of the mountain ranges called Olympus throughout ancient Greece, Turkey and Cyprus only one breaks the 2000 meter trehsold to reach the clouds :  [Mytikas][3] at 2918 meters (9570 feet).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.greek-gods.info/ancient-greece/mount-olympus/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.greekmyths-greekmythology.com/titans-and-titanomachy/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://sacredsites.com/europe/greece/mt_olympus.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2734" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="512" RevisionGUID="85210ef7-3aba-4dff-8dee-8257b01974dc" CreationDate="2015-05-06T12:58:41.283" UserId="36" Comment="added 398 characters in body" Text="###The Olympians defeated the Titans on [Mt. Olympus][1] and decided to build their kingdom at the scene of their greatest victory.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Titanomachy][2] (the great war between the Olympians and the Titans) took place on Olympus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The exact mountain range referred to by Homer is still unknown as he offers little to no geological information about it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But there are some theories that the Greeks assumed Olympus was the seat of power for their gods as it was so high it _touched the clouds_. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If this is true, then of all of the mountain ranges called Olympus throughout ancient Greece, Turkey and Cyprus only one breaks the 2000 meter trehsold to reach the clouds :  [Mytikas][3] at 2918 meters (9570 feet).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.greek-gods.info/ancient-greece/mount-olympus/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.greekmyths-greekmythology.com/titans-and-titanomachy/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://sacredsites.com/europe/greece/mt_olympus.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2735" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="513" RevisionGUID="622d40ec-f180-4211-a69b-0dcf608bc4e7" CreationDate="2015-05-06T12:59:48.727" UserId="57" Text="Olympus has always been the home of the gods, even before Zeus' reign: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (ll. 109-120) First of all the deathless gods who dwell on Olympus made a golden race of mortal men who lived in the time of Cronos when he was reigning in heaven. And they lived like gods without sorrow of heart, remote and free from toil and grief: miserable age rested not on them; but with legs and arms never failing they made merry with feasting beyond the reach of all evils. When they died, it was as though they were overcome with sleep, and they had all good things; for the fruitful earth unforced bare them fruit abundantly and without stint. They dwelt in ease and peace upon their lands with many good things, rich in flocks and loved by the blessed gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (ll. 121-139) But after earth had covered this generation -- they are called pure spirits dwelling on the earth, and are kindly, delivering from harm, and guardians of mortal men; for they roam everywhere over the earth, clothed in mist and keep watch on judgements and cruel deeds, givers of wealth; for this royal right also they received; -- then they who dwell on Olympus made a second generation which was of silver and less noble by far. It was like the golden race neither in body nor in spirit. A child was brought up at his good mother's side an hundred years, an utter simpleton, playing childishly in his own home. But when they were full grown and were come to the full measure of their prime, they lived only a little time in sorrow because of their foolishness, for they could not keep from sinning and from wronging one another, nor would they serve the immortals, nor sacrifice on the holy altars of the blessed ones as it is right for men to do wherever they dwell. Then Zeus the son of Cronos was angry and put them away, because they would not give honour to the blessed gods who live on Olympus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hesiod: Works And Days, translated by Hugh G. Evelyn-White][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm not aware of any &quot;in-universe&quot; explanation of why the gods would favour Olympus over any other place. The logical explanation would be that it's the highest mountain in Greece, the closest you can get to the heavens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/works.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2742" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="514" RevisionGUID="b834faf9-c1cc-42ab-8a2f-409f56d24007" CreationDate="2015-05-06T14:12:48.007" UserId="11" Text="Short answer: Color signifies the property of the God's character.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Long answer: Honestly, anything I write here would be a duplicate of this excellent answer on Hinduism.SE: [Why are Hindu Gods colored?](http://hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/2696/why-are-hindu-gods-colored). It has good textual references.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've made this answer community wiki as the content is not mine, so I don't deserve any rep from it. But at least this can be marked as accepted now." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2743" PostHistoryTypeId="16" PostId="514" RevisionGUID="b834faf9-c1cc-42ab-8a2f-409f56d24007" CreationDate="2015-05-06T14:12:48.007" UserId="11" />
  <row Id="2744" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="514" RevisionGUID="56f2a0d3-963c-4692-981f-7a71166b1189" CreationDate="2015-05-06T14:21:54.863" UserId="11" Comment="added 104 characters in body" Text="Short answer: Color signifies the property of the God's character. See [this Mantra reference](http://greenmesg.org/mantras_slokas/bhakta_hanuman-atulita_bala_dhamam.php)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Long answer: Honestly, anything I write here would be a duplicate of this excellent answer on Hinduism.SE: [Why are Hindu Gods colored?](http://hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/2696/why-are-hindu-gods-colored). It has good textual references.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've made this answer community wiki as the content is not mine, so I don't deserve any rep from it. But at least this can be marked as accepted now." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2745" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="514" RevisionGUID="ded90ebb-1399-4238-9672-26cff680fe6e" CreationDate="2015-05-06T14:27:21.937" UserId="11" Comment="Added the full text in block quotes" Text="Short answer: Color signifies the property of the God's character. See [this Mantra reference](http://greenmesg.org/mantras_slokas/bhakta_hanuman-atulita_bala_dhamam.php)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Long answer: Honestly, anything I write here would be a duplicate of this excellent answer on Hinduism.SE: [Why are Hindu Gods colored?](http://hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/2696/why-are-hindu-gods-colored). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've made this answer community wiki as the content is not mine, so I don't deserve any rep from it. But at least this can be marked as accepted now. Here is the full text as written by [@Creator](http://hinduism.stackexchange.com/users/489/creator) in case it gets edited or removed:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Color signifies the property of the God's character&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; `Shiva is karpur Gaur` - i.e. white as a camphor, because he is sinless and is totally nirlipta(not affected by samsara or worldly habits or wealth) he is always covered in white Bhasma (ashes which come out of his own agni stambha form [refer :Linga Purana]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Talking about Rama he is light-blue colored signifying the calmness and politeness also the maryada(always being within human limits) in fact in our body the 5th chakra (from root chakra or mooladhar chakra) Throat Chakra is light-blue coloured (see [this][1] for more info on Throat Chakra or Vishudha chakra). It is said that after reaching this chakra kundalini dosen't goes down or one does not degrades (spritually) that's why lord Rama is taken as ideal human or god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dark Blue color of lord Krishna Depicts the milan of Shiva and Hari it means the Sandhya Kal (Evening Time) where day meets night (day-shiva night-hari(dark blue)). Also Narayana's core character is regarded as Krishna that's why he is depicted Dark Blue same as narayana.The Anjana Chakra (Third-Eye) has same color as lord Krishna (see [this][2] for more info)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; अतुलितबलधामं हेमशैलाभदेहं &lt;br&gt; दनुजवनकृशानुं ज्ञानिनामग्रगण्यम् ।&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; सकलगुणनिधानं वानराणामधीशं&lt;br&gt; रघुपतिप्रियभक्तं वातात्मजं नमामि ॥&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Mantra Reference][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This mantra from SunderKand of Ramayana depicts Characteristics of lord Hanuman. Here *Haemshalbdeham* means 'body like `Golden Mountain`'. The golden color of his body depicts that he is so beautiful and powerful (full of good aura) that his body has become golden also because of ram Bhakti or chanting of continuous ram name.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At Last Gauri as name depicts is white as her husband Mahadev Lord Shiva, because she has unified with him she posses same character as Mahadev Lord Shiva.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In humans it is the varna which is specified in jyotishya (Astrology) and the patrika of a person this depicts the color of human child when he is born and this affects its characterstics (do not consider it racism).According to this varna the gana is found.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Read [this][4] if you want more details on colour and their significance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vishuddha&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajna&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://greenmesg.org/mantras_slokas/bhakta_hanuman-atulita_bala_dhamam.php&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.wou.edu/provost/library/exhibits/exhibits2004-05/color/Images/hinduism.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2747" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="515" RevisionGUID="481b5689-5371-439b-bf09-9cf368db051f" CreationDate="2015-05-06T15:33:20.963" UserId="11" Text="#Nothing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or, more accurately, about as much as happens to us when one of our centuries ends - people worry about banking software crashing (aside: the ancient Mayans did not have banking software), and then nothing happens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;David Stuart, a Maya researcher, [explains it on his blog: Baktuns and more Baktuns](https://decipherment.wordpress.com/2012/12/19/baktuns-and-more-baktuns/):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This upcoming 13.0.0.0.0 date is a repetition of the “base” of the system which fell in 3114 BCE, also represented as 13.0.0.0.0. Back then, the subsequent bak’tun number was re-set as 1 (1.0.0.0.0) and thereafter their count progressed forward until the reappearance of 13 bak’tuns on December 21 of this year. This repetition of 13s has led some to suppose that a similar re-set of the bak’tun system is upon us now, and that we are destined to go back to 1.0.0.0.0 in some 400 years from now. This is not true. Based on texts from Palenque that project calendar stations far into the future, we know there will be a linear sequence of bak’tuns from here on, represented as 14.0.0.0.0, 15.0.0.0.0, and so on. This will run forward still until 19.0.0.0.0, about 2,400 years from now.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Notice that at the end of this roughly 13,000-year span that the bak’tun changes to 0 and the next higher period, the piktun, turns over as 1. As it happens, the piktun unit before this date was set at 13, although this is left unwritten in the dates above. (Mayanists have long tended to just write five numbers of the Long Count, following the convention of the ancient Maya scribes themselves. But we know that this is a truncated representation, and that there were many more cycles above bak’tun and piktun. The full system I call the “Grand Long Count” encompassed 24 units!)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, yeah, nothing. From [this NPR article](http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/12/20/167626648/maya-expert-the-end-of-times-is-our-idea-not-the-ancients), Stuart also said:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;It's a big deal — if you're an ancient Maya astronomer priest,&quot; Stuart says. &quot;But apart from that, they didn't say anything about ... what will be happening.&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2748" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="516" RevisionGUID="b6cb554b-1cc2-463d-8695-cb9e95d31918" CreationDate="2015-05-06T15:53:35.023" UserId="183" Text="I've been reading [the first branch of the Mabinogion](http://www.mabinogi.net/pwyll.htm), which details the journeys of Pwyll, lord of Dyfed. While hunting, he meets Arawn, king of Annwfn, who strikes a deal with him: The two will switch places for a year. At the end of the year, Pwyll will battle - and kill Hafgan, the other king of Annwfn, in Arawn's stead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both Arawn and Hafgan seem to posses magical powers - as evidenced by Arawn's hunting dogs and his ability to cast enchantments to change a person's appearance - while it does not seem that Pwyll had any special powers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the footnotes, an explanation for Pwynn's victory is given:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; We see here that, rather like the Gawain, Pwyll is able to defeat the Annuvian king by following a prescribed form of behaviour, one that in many ways might seem somewhat counter-intuitive. The denouement of this act, as it were, is Pwyll's refusal to finish what he started and give Hafgan the mortal blow. The underlying implication of this act is that had Pwyll given in to his enemy's entreaty, he would have somehow failed to defeat him. Here, the natural laws of the Otherworld seem diametrically opposed to those of the mortal world, where destroying an enemy in this way would have been simple common sense.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Given that Hafgan would (seemingly) have had the advantage over Pwyll, why did Arawn choose to swap? Wouldn't he have known of the rules of the Otherworld (Annwfn), given that he was one of its kings, and been able to use that to kill Hafgan?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2749" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="516" RevisionGUID="b6cb554b-1cc2-463d-8695-cb9e95d31918" CreationDate="2015-05-06T15:53:35.023" UserId="183" Text="Why did Arawn choose Pwyll to fight Hafgan, king of Annwfn?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2750" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="516" RevisionGUID="b6cb554b-1cc2-463d-8695-cb9e95d31918" CreationDate="2015-05-06T15:53:35.023" UserId="183" Text="|arthurian|welsh|mabinogion|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2753" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7" RevisionGUID="dd49ab1e-ec4e-4817-9233-578a4903ce40" CreationDate="2015-05-06T16:27:18.643" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 1 character in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Many of the Greek gods were bisexual. Did Zeus have any male lovers?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2754" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="7" RevisionGUID="dd49ab1e-ec4e-4817-9233-578a4903ce40" CreationDate="2015-05-06T16:27:18.643" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 1 character in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Did Zeus have any male lovers?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2755" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="7" RevisionGUID="dd49ab1e-ec4e-4817-9233-578a4903ce40" CreationDate="2015-05-06T16:27:18.643" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 1 character in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|greek|zeus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2756" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="517" RevisionGUID="20485baf-932a-447d-bc9c-233a19cd7aef" CreationDate="2015-05-06T16:35:15.950" UserId="171" Text="In order to learn the secrets of the runes (symbols of some of the most powerful forces in the cosmos) Odin hugs himself from Yggdrasil, pierces himself with his own spear and peers downward to the Well of Urn for nine days. He fasts during this time and instructs the other gods not to assist him in the slightest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the end of the ninth night he perceives some shapes on the depth of the Well. The runes have accepted his sacrifice (Odin is sacrificing himself to himself) and show to him, and thus Odin is able to learn their secrets. &lt;sup&gt;[1]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not that this is not a great feat, but if the process might consist in going through an ordeal were a being &quot;offers himself or herself&quot; to the runes, overcomes or withstands the ordeal and the runes accept this sacrifice, it could look like something that others might be tempted to try.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Has any other god or entity in the norse mythology, successfully or unsuccessfully, attempted to repeat this feat in order to gain knowledge of the runes like Odin did?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;[1]: [One reference][1] to this process.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]: http://norse-mythology.org/tales/odins-discovery-of-the-runes/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2757" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="517" RevisionGUID="20485baf-932a-447d-bc9c-233a19cd7aef" CreationDate="2015-05-06T16:35:15.950" UserId="171" Text="Is Odin the only being who gained knowledge of the runes?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2758" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="517" RevisionGUID="20485baf-932a-447d-bc9c-233a19cd7aef" CreationDate="2015-05-06T16:35:15.950" UserId="171" Text="|norse|odin|sacrifice|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2759" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="517" RevisionGUID="cd21db5b-a0db-4e6a-87f9-8161416eb708" CreationDate="2015-05-06T17:40:36.170" UserId="183" Comment="edited body; edited tags" Text="In order to learn the secrets of the runes (symbols of some of the most powerful forces in the cosmos) Odin hugs himself from Yggdrasil, pierces himself with his own spear and peers downward to the Well of Urn for nine days. He fasts during this time and instructs the other gods not to assist him in the slightest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the end of the ninth night he perceives some shapes on the depth of the Well. The runes have accepted his sacrifice (Odin is sacrificing himself to himself) and show to him, and thus Odin is able to learn their secrets. &lt;sup&gt;[1]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not that this is not a great feat, but if the process might consist in going through an ordeal were a being &quot;offers himself or herself&quot; to the runes, overcomes or withstands the ordeal and the runes accept this sacrifice, it could look like something that others might be tempted to try.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Has any other god or entity in the Norse mythology, successfully or unsuccessfully, attempted to repeat this feat in order to gain knowledge of the runes like Odin did?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;[1]: [One reference][1] to this process.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]: http://norse-mythology.org/tales/odins-discovery-of-the-runes/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2760" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="517" RevisionGUID="cd21db5b-a0db-4e6a-87f9-8161416eb708" CreationDate="2015-05-06T17:40:36.170" UserId="183" Comment="edited body; edited tags" Text="|norse|odin|sacrifice|yggdrasil|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2762" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="518" RevisionGUID="2badc0be-4ec1-4899-a220-60dcd498b0e5" CreationDate="2015-05-06T17:54:16.573" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2763" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="519" RevisionGUID="8150c619-3197-4eb0-a028-977a7b9e7784" CreationDate="2015-05-06T17:54:16.573" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2764" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="503" RevisionGUID="d66a3f41-9fbb-4813-b7fb-dd465840e4f6" CreationDate="2015-05-06T17:58:10.273" UserId="183" Comment="added 67 characters in body" Text="There are a few different accounts, detailed [here](http://www.timelessmyths.com/arthurian/women.html#Morgan):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. She was the half sister of none other than King Arthur himself, the daughter of King Gorlois and Igraine (Arthur's mother). She was most likely the aunt of Mordred, though one or two accounts give her as his mother.&#xD;&#xA; 2. She was one of nine sisters living in the land of Avalon (of course), who had magical, mystical powers, learned from Merlin.&#xD;&#xA; 3. She was a (perhaps Celtic) goddess, such as Morrigan or Modron (note the similarities in the names), or else a fairy queen. Her magical powers should be self-explanatory from these assumptions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This](http://www.kingarthursknights.com/others/morganlefay.asp) and [this](http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/392293/Morgan-le-Fay) confirm the stories that she was one of the nine queens of Avalon, and that she learned from Merlin." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2765" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="519" RevisionGUID="74778d49-1770-4345-9f51-6812c84ab0d4" CreationDate="2015-05-06T18:03:56.550" UserId="183" Comment="added 120 characters in body" Text="For questions about the role of the Sun, the star around which Earth orbits, in mythology, including deities of the Sun." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2766" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="519" RevisionGUID="74778d49-1770-4345-9f51-6812c84ab0d4" CreationDate="2015-05-06T18:03:56.550" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 29, 79 edit id of 135" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2767" PostHistoryTypeId="11" PostId="7" RevisionGUID="349403c2-a93b-4b62-921b-641abc36fd79" CreationDate="2015-05-06T18:17:22.627" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Yannis&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:183,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;HDE 226868&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:108,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Semaphore&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:68,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Yes&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:42,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;femtoRgon&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="2772" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="520" RevisionGUID="c2a174d0-1cbf-4986-98bb-2d61d68af1d1" CreationDate="2015-05-06T19:00:30.283" UserId="174" Text="In the myth of [Utgard-Loki][1], Thor and friends visit the castle Utgard, where several beings have nearly identical names:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Utgard-Loki, a giant and the ruler of Utgard&#xD;&#xA;* Loki, an Aesir and the half-brother of Thor&#xD;&#xA;* Logi, another guest, the personification of fire&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any deeper meaning to these similar names? Do the beings have a mythological or etymological connection? Is it simple wordplay, or coincidence? I know that Loki and Utgard-Loki are both associated with giants, and that Loki and Logi are both associated with fire. Is there more to it than that?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Atgar%C3%B0a-Loki" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2773" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="520" RevisionGUID="c2a174d0-1cbf-4986-98bb-2d61d68af1d1" CreationDate="2015-05-06T19:00:30.283" UserId="174" Text="Utgard-Loki, Loki, and Logi" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2774" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="520" RevisionGUID="c2a174d0-1cbf-4986-98bb-2d61d68af1d1" CreationDate="2015-05-06T19:00:30.283" UserId="174" Text="|norse|etymology|names|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2775" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="521" RevisionGUID="e1994151-bb06-435a-ad15-fa2121666495" CreationDate="2015-05-06T19:01:52.580" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2776" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="522" RevisionGUID="50542072-813a-4627-89cd-5d9f6347a161" CreationDate="2015-05-06T19:01:52.580" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2777" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="523" RevisionGUID="47a6590b-4874-489a-8071-290232fa86f1" CreationDate="2015-05-06T19:07:08.877" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="Hephaestus and Medusa had a son named Cacus.  How come Hephaestus and Cacus was shielded from being turned to stone? Does being a God shield them?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2778" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="523" RevisionGUID="47a6590b-4874-489a-8071-290232fa86f1" CreationDate="2015-05-06T19:07:08.877" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="Hephaestus and Medusa had a son named Cacus. How come Hephaestus was shielded from being turned to stone?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2779" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="523" RevisionGUID="47a6590b-4874-489a-8071-290232fa86f1" CreationDate="2015-05-06T19:07:08.877" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2780" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="524" RevisionGUID="9c3c413b-e544-4f5e-800f-86260e593a05" CreationDate="2015-05-06T19:15:03.947" UserId="79" Text="In Greek mythology, the giant Alcyoneus had seven daughters: Phthonia, Anthe, Methone, Alcippe, Pallene, Drimo, and Asteria.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When their father was slain by Heracles, they threw themselves into the sea, and were changed into **ice-birds**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To be more [specific](http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NymphaiAlkyonides.html), the species they transformed into was the kingfisher.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;source: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0104:entry=alcyonides-bio-1&amp;highlight=&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2781" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="522" RevisionGUID="0009aab8-46bb-4903-b0cb-f2d9beb58d33" CreationDate="2015-05-06T19:18:04.030" UserId="171" Comment="added 115 characters in body" Text="For sacrificial rituals or processes in mythology, or any other processes in which a character undergoes an ordeal." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2782" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="522" RevisionGUID="0009aab8-46bb-4903-b0cb-f2d9beb58d33" CreationDate="2015-05-06T19:18:04.030" Comment="Proposed by 171 approved by 79, 65 edit id of 137" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2783" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="521" RevisionGUID="af5a4ca6-494f-4b35-8dd7-f97f466cc406" CreationDate="2015-05-06T19:18:29.937" UserId="171" Comment="added 301 characters in body" Text="Sacrifices are rituals or processes in which a character undergoes an ordeal. This traumatic experience is significant in modeling the mythos of the character or key on a certain story of a mythos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It can also depict sacrificial rituals made to gods of a pantheon in order to gain favors from them." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2784" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="521" RevisionGUID="af5a4ca6-494f-4b35-8dd7-f97f466cc406" CreationDate="2015-05-06T19:18:29.937" Comment="Proposed by 171 approved by 79, 65 edit id of 136" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2785" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="525" RevisionGUID="3edff07a-7c2c-49ba-a5bc-5248aca42515" CreationDate="2015-05-06T19:29:57.143" UserId="11" Text="For a story to be so universal, it must echo experiences that happen to all of us. What happens to all of us? The obvious candidate is: growing up. [Glen C. Strathy explains it quite well here](http://www.how-to-write-a-book-now.com/monomyth.html):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It's also the formula for a rite of initiation, which may be why the monomyth is so popular among young adults. It echoes the process all teenagers go through as as they transform from children into adults. Seen from this perspective, the three stages might be described as ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1. As the young teen leaves childhood, he/she moves towards greater independence from parents.&#xD;&#xA;2. Adolescence and the struggle to become an adult (to come to terms with adult power, shoulder adult responsibilities, become sexually active, achieve a new understanding of one's parents, find one's place in the world, etc.).&#xD;&#xA;3. Settling into adulthood (marriage, parenthood), so the cycle can continue.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Transitioning from dependence (Mom! Could you do my laundry for me today?!?!?) to independence is *hard*. And we can all relate to it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--- &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But you asked for What Campbell himself said in [The Hero with a Thousand Faces](http://amzn.com/1577315936) (emphasis mine):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It has always been the prime function of mythology and rite to supply the symbols that carry the human spirit forward, in counteraction to those constant human fantasies that tent to tie it back. In fact, it may well be that the very high incidence of neuroticism among ourselves follows from the decline among us of such effective spiritual aid. **We remain fixated to the unexercised images of our infancy, and hence disinclined to the necessary passages of our adulthood. ** ... The psychoanalyst has to come along, at last, to assert again the tried wisdom of the older, forward looking teachings of the masked medicine dances and the witch-doctor-circumcisers; whereupon we find, as in the dream of the serpent bite, that ageless initiation symbolism is produced spontaneously by the patient himself at the moment of the release. Apparently, there is something in these initiatory images so necessary to the psyche that if they are not supplied from without, through myth and ritual, they will have to be announced again, through dream, from within-lest our energies remain locked in a banal, long-outmoded toy-room, at the bottom of the sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as a citation for Campbell saying that classic myths from many cultures follow this pattern, he said, again in The Hero with a Thousand Faces:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The wonder is that characteristic efficacy to touch and inspire deep creative centers dwells in the smallest nursery fair tale-as the flavor of the ocean is contained in a droplet or the whole mystery of life within the egg of a flea. For the symbols of mythology are not manufactured; they cannot be ordered, inveted, or permanently suppressed. They are spontaneous productions of the psyche, and each bears within it, undamaged, the germ power of its source.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; What is the secret of the timeless vision? From what profundity of the mind does it derive? Why is mythology everywhere the same, beneath its varieties of costume? And what does it teach?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2786" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="523" RevisionGUID="8d511c33-88dd-4f3c-a5f1-9d2f8eba295a" CreationDate="2015-05-06T19:31:23.850" UserId="171" Comment="added 477 characters in body; edited tags" Text="Hephaestus and Medusa had a son named Cacus.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**Cacus was the son of Hephaestus and Medusa**. Inheriting the properties of fire from his father and monstrousness from his mother, Cacus was a fire-breathing monster who was sometimes described as a three-headed giant. He lived on human flesh and decorated his cave with the bones and skulls of his victims.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; source: [Cacus Versus Heracles by Nancy Conner, PhD](http://www.netplaces.com/classical-mythology/monster-madness/cacus-versus-heracles.htm) &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How come Hephaestus and Cacus was shielded from being turned to stone? Does being a God shield them?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2787" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="523" RevisionGUID="8d511c33-88dd-4f3c-a5f1-9d2f8eba295a" CreationDate="2015-05-06T19:31:23.850" UserId="171" Comment="added 477 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|greek|medusa|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2788" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="526" RevisionGUID="81db9a32-f3e7-4fe7-9fd4-6c14e53bd94d" CreationDate="2015-05-06T19:43:11.933" UserId="11" Text="I don't really consider that a particularly good source. Virgil says that Cacus was Half Human, in the Aeneid, Book VIII:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There was a cave here, receding to vast depths,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; untouched by the sun’s rays, inhabited by the fell shape&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Cacus, **the half-human,** and the ground was always warm&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with fresh blood, and the heads of men, insolently&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; nailed to the doors, hung there pallid with sad decay.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Vulcan was father to this monster:** and, as he moved&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his massive bulk, he belched out his dark fires.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now at last time brought what we wished, the presence&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and assistance of a god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Additionally, I have been unable to find a single corroborating citation to your source about Medusa being Cacus's mother. Especially since, as a Gorgon, Medusa was a [Daughter of Phorcys and his sister Ceto, ancient Cthonic deities.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medusa)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, your source says that Cacus inherited Monstrousness from his mother, but we know that other children of Hephaestus were also monsters, for example in [Apollonius I](http://www.theoi.com/Text/ApolloniusRhodius1.html):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [202] With him came Palaemonius, son of Olenian Lernus, of Lernus by repute, but his birth was from Hephaestus; and so he was crippled in his feet, but his bodily frame and his valour no one would dare to scorn.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Side note: Being a God did not shield one from Medusa. See: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/412/how-did-athena-keep-from-being-turned-into-stone-by-her-shield/415#415" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2789" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="527" RevisionGUID="aebaec2f-17ce-41c8-9a8c-58ccb5969c31" CreationDate="2015-05-06T19:43:47.987" UserId="36" Text="###The [Pomola][1] is  a snow bird spirit in Native American mythology, it lived on [Mt Katahdin][2] and caused cold weather&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In Penobscot folklore, the Pomola was a bird spirit that lived on Mt Katahdin. It was associated with night, wind, snow, and storms. Apparently it had a moose's head according to some legends. The [Penobscots][3] and [Abenakis][4] avoided climbing to the top of this mountain so as not to disturb it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately, I couldn't find an image without a watermark.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.native-languages.org/pomola.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/TjWikiKatahdin.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.penobscotnation.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.tolatsga.org/aben.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/7yCHU.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2790" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="517" RevisionGUID="9e5afe8b-175b-4a3f-9769-28b0943f326d" CreationDate="2015-05-06T21:02:35.743" UserId="201" Comment="fixed typo and added a word to satisfy the SE interface" Text="In order to learn the secrets of the runes (symbols of some of the most powerful forces in the cosmos) Odin hangs himself from Yggdrasil, pierces himself with his own spear, and peers downward to the Well of Urn for nine days. He fasts during this time and instructs the other gods not to assist him in the slightest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the end of the ninth night he perceives some shapes on the depth of the Well. The runes have accepted his sacrifice (Odin is sacrificing himself to himself) and show themselves to him, and thus Odin is able to learn their secrets. &lt;sup&gt;[1]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not that this is not a great feat, but if the process might consist in going through an ordeal were a being &quot;offers himself or herself&quot; to the runes, overcomes or withstands the ordeal and the runes accept this sacrifice, it could look like something that others might be tempted to try.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Has any other god or entity in the Norse mythology, successfully or unsuccessfully, attempted to repeat this feat in order to gain knowledge of the runes like Odin did?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;[1]: [One reference][1] to this process.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]: http://norse-mythology.org/tales/odins-discovery-of-the-runes/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2791" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="517" RevisionGUID="9e5afe8b-175b-4a3f-9769-28b0943f326d" CreationDate="2015-05-06T21:02:35.743" Comment="Proposed by 201 approved by 171 edit id of 138" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2794" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="526" RevisionGUID="87224ccc-0bf9-4d9f-af09-d1264e502a80" CreationDate="2015-05-06T21:26:51.447" UserId="11" Comment="added 29 characters in body" Text="I don't really consider that a particularly good source. Virgil says that Cacus was Half Human, in the Aeneid, Book VIII:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There was a cave here, receding to vast depths,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; untouched by the sun’s rays, inhabited by the fell shape&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Cacus, **the half-human,** and the ground was always warm&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with fresh blood, and the heads of men, insolently&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; nailed to the doors, hung there pallid with sad decay.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Vulcan was father to this monster:** and, as he moved&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his massive bulk, he belched out his dark fires.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now at last time brought what we wished, the presence&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and assistance of a god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Additionally, I have been unable to find a single corroborating citation to your source about Medusa being Cacus's mother. Especially since, as a Gorgon, Medusa was a [Daughter of Phorcys and his sister Ceto, ancient Cthonic deities](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medusa), and was therefore not human.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, your source says that Cacus inherited Monstrousness from his mother, but we know that other children of Hephaestus were also monsters, for example in [Apollonius I](http://www.theoi.com/Text/ApolloniusRhodius1.html):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [202] With him came Palaemonius, son of Olenian Lernus, of Lernus by repute, but his birth was from Hephaestus; and so he was crippled in his feet, but his bodily frame and his valour no one would dare to scorn.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Side note: Being a God did not shield one from Medusa. See: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/412/how-did-athena-keep-from-being-turned-into-stone-by-her-shield/415#415" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2795" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="528" RevisionGUID="b5cc4778-f413-4636-be3a-489324bf2549" CreationDate="2015-05-06T21:45:24.440" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="This answer is a supplement to [durron597's answer][1] (which is completely correct and should be the accepted one). I'm writing this answer because there are several misconceptions floating around about the meaning and the implications of Campbell's monomyth, and I want to clarify them (this answer also gets at the original question -- why is the monomyth so common).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(I'm not going to cite sources in this answer because this is my own interpretation of Campbell, and the argument's I'm using are probably different from Campbell's own. However, I think my interpretation is useful and will help people understand Campbell.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The monomyth is more interesting to people who study literature than it is to people who study religion. This is because it is fundamentally about how stories are composed, and isn't directly about religion (though Campbell [successfully] argues that stories are a key component of religion).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although most people describe the monomyth as having 12 steps, I think of it as a two step process:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. The hero is put into an unfamiliar situation or faces an obstacle.&#xD;&#xA;2. The hero learns to overcome that situation/obstacle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason why the monomyth is so common is that the two step formula I just described is one of the best ways to tell a story (some people would say it's the only way). *If you are an author and you want to teach your reader's a lesson (e.g. how to live their life), a great way to do that is to create a story where the hero faces a challange (e.g. my life is not meaningful) and then overcomes it (e.g. the hero finds meaning in their life). **Because people place themselves in the situation and see through the eyes of the characters they read about**, the reader will then learn from the fictional characters and learn how to overcome similar obstacles in their own life.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As Campbell notes, the monomyth is frequently used in religion, but I think that has more to do with the fact that religions use stories than with religions using the monomyth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/525/62" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2796" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="528" RevisionGUID="43c7c851-6e70-43fe-8af4-818ca7ee9914" CreationDate="2015-05-06T21:56:06.203" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 110 characters in body" Text="This answer is a supplement to [durron597's answer][1] (which is completely correct and should be the accepted one). I'm writing this answer because there are several misconceptions floating around about the meaning and the implications of Campbell's monomyth, and I want to clarify them (this answer also gets at the original question -- why is the monomyth so common).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(I'm not going to cite sources in this answer because this is my own interpretation of Campbell, and the argument's I'm using are probably different from Campbell's own. However, I think my interpretation is useful and will help people understand Campbell.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The monomyth is more interesting to people who study literature than it is to people who study religion. This is because it is fundamentally about how stories are composed, and isn't directly about religion (though Campbell [successfully] argues that stories are a key component of religion).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although most people describe the monomyth as having 12 steps, I think of it as a two step process:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. The hero is put into an unfamiliar situation or faces an obstacle.&#xD;&#xA;2. The hero learns to overcome that situation/obstacle (or just learns something -- the hero could be compared to a child/adolescent learning to navigate the world).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason why the monomyth is so common is that the two step formula I just described is one of the best ways to tell a story (some people would say it's the only way). *If you are an author and you want to teach your reader's a lesson (e.g. how to live their life), a great way to do that is to create a story where the hero faces a challange (e.g. my life is not meaningful) and then overcomes it (e.g. the hero finds meaning in their life). **Because people place themselves in the situation and see through the eyes of the characters they read about**, the reader will then learn from the fictional characters and learn how to overcome similar obstacles in their own life.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As Campbell notes, the monomyth is frequently used in religion, but I think that has more to do with the fact that religions use stories than with religions using the monomyth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/525/62" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2797" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="528" RevisionGUID="e721fc7f-2f7c-484e-8fe0-828341a748d3" CreationDate="2015-05-06T21:58:54.543" UserId="11" Comment="Removed lots of parentheses, fixed spelling errors, fixed 's that should s (like reader's)" Text="This answer is a supplement to [durron597's answer][1] - which is completely correct and should be the accepted one. I'm writing this answer because there are several misconceptions floating around about the meaning and the implications of Campbell's monomyth, and I want to clarify them. This answer also gets at the original question -- why is the monomyth so common.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(I'm not going to cite sources in this answer because this is my own interpretation of Campbell, and the arguments I'm using are probably different from Campbell's own. However, I think my interpretation is useful and will help people understand Campbell.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The monomyth is more interesting to people who study literature than it is to people who study religion. This is because it is fundamentally about how stories are composed and not directly about religion, though Campbell (successfully) argues that stories are a key component of religion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although most people describe the monomyth as having 12 steps, I think of it as a two step process:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. The hero is put into an unfamiliar situation or faces an obstacle.&#xD;&#xA;2. The hero learns to overcome that situation/obstacle (or just learns something) &#xD;&#xA;  - The hero could be compared to a child/adolescent learning to navigate the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason why the monomyth is so common is that the two step formula I just described is one of the best ways to tell a story; some people would say it's the only way. *If you are an author and you want to teach your readers a lesson (e.g. how to live their life), a great way to do that is to create a story where the hero faces a challenge (e.g. my life is not meaningful) and then overcomes it (e.g. the hero finds meaning in their life). **Because people place themselves in the situation and see through the eyes of the characters they read about**, the reader will then learn from the fictional characters and learn how to overcome similar obstacles in their own life.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As Campbell notes, the monomyth is frequently used in religion, but I think that has more to do with the fact that religions use stories than with religions using the monomyth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/525/62" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2800" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="172" RevisionGUID="d55acd2f-fd79-4cc0-8a7c-3442f982cfa7" CreationDate="2015-05-06T22:20:15.733" UserId="51" Comment="Improving a bit." Text="Who were the Anunnaki? Were they gods, demigods or different race? And what was their role?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How do we tell who they were?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2803" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="529" RevisionGUID="ff088f07-47cf-4352-b9f0-43a6c7beb2db" CreationDate="2015-05-06T22:30:31.590" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="You're right that Arawn didn't explain his actions, but if he did you should consider it a red herring. The most important part of this story is that the hero and the &quot;otherworld&quot; character swap places. From the [footnotes of your online translation][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As this point the plot begins to take the form of another stereotyped&#xD;&#xA;&gt; narrative mytheme, equally familiar throughout the Celtic world. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Otherworld Sojourn, as we might call this scenario, could take a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; number of forms: but always followed the same basic gist: the mortal&#xD;&#xA;&gt; protagonist is lured to an Otherworldly domain, where they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; subsequently abide for a period of time. This occurs at the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; instigation of one or more of the Otherworld beings, and often follows&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a Chase of the White Stag introduction, or some variant thereof.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The purpose of Pwyll's sorjourn in the Indigenous Underworld is to rid&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Arawn of his 'oppression': the rival king Hafgan ('Summer-Bright')&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with whom he is locked in a ongoing and irreconcilable conflict. A&#xD;&#xA;&gt; further example of mortal interventions in Otherworldly conflicts of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this kind in the Celtic world include Arthur's adjudication of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; seasonal dual between Gwynn ap Nudd and Gwerthyfyr ap Greidawl for the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hand of Creiyldyd, on the Calends of May. In this and other respects,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the plot of The Sickness of CuChulain and The Only Jealosy of Emer&#xD;&#xA;&gt; follows this First Branch episode even closer: complete with the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'Chase of the White Stag' entrée. This narrative can be summarised&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[it compares the story with another story]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Like Pwyll, CúChulainn finds himself indebted to Otherworld powers as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a result of abusing magical animals on a hunting expedition. Like&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pwyll also, this encounter carries the appearance of having been&#xD;&#xA;&gt; contrived and instigated by the Otherworld agency. The measured&#xD;&#xA;&gt; responses of Arawn ('I know who you are...'), the location and timing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of their encounter, and its favourable outcome for the Annuvian king&#xD;&#xA;&gt; suggest that the event was no coincidence. Like Cú Chulainn, Pwyll was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in effect drawn and entrapped by the otherworld powers involved. And&#xD;&#xA;&gt; both were required to visit Underworld regions where they were obliged&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to lend their assistance as mortal warriors in the magical&#xD;&#xA;&gt; protagonists' struggles for power. Interestingly as well, the Irish&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Manawydan - Manannan mac Lír - features in this same story as the one&#xD;&#xA;&gt; time spouse of the heroine involved. (As we shall see in subsequent&#xD;&#xA;&gt; chapters, Pwyll and Manawydan become linked in a similar way).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**This is the most relevant section:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; That the denizens of the Indigenous Underworld should be so in need of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the military prowess of mortal warriors is another motif not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; unfamiliar within the Celtic world and beyond. The well known myth of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the aversion of faery-folk to iron is an example of the ambiguous&#xD;&#xA;&gt; power-relationship between themselves and the mortal world. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Indigenous Underworld, however, while being mysteriously vulnerable in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; certain respects, was clearly a source of danger when it came to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; magical initiatives. The trade-off of these respective strengths and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; weaknesses is a frequent theme in fairy tales and popular magical&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tales from around the world. It was within this tradition that the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; narrative of much of the Mabinogi would have been understood.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; *The narratives produced by animistic belief systems often focus on the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; acquisition of power, in its elemental-magical form. The struggle for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; possession of this substance of power is typically waged by any&#xD;&#xA;&gt; variety of means: trickery and cunning prevailing as frequently as any&#xD;&#xA;&gt; other stratagem. In this episode Pwyll is consummately manipulated by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Underworld agent who thereby obtains his power, which becomes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; harnessed to the latter's own agenda in the arena of Annuvian&#xD;&#xA;&gt; politics.* Through an act of impulsive foolishness (significantly, as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; we shall see, involving the dog and the stag), the ironically-named&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pwyll (see p ##-##) had inadvertedly placed himself in a chain of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; events, which would ultimately result in a mysterious fusion between&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dyfed and Annwn.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This story is about the somewhat coercive relationship between the &quot;otherworld&quot; and the real world. *I think it's just as important to the story that Arawn (the otherworlder) takes Pwynn's (the human's) place in the real world:* both the otherworld and the real world have their strengths and weaknesses, and this story is about travelling between the two, and about man's relationship with spirits. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The purpose of god's and spirits isn't to do everything themselves, but (in this story) to coerce and trick mortals into doing things for them. A specific logical reason why Arawn needs Pwynn doesn't exist, because the point of this story is that it's an example of the interactions between the spirit and real world, and not that &quot;Arawn needed Pwynn because Pwynn is really stealthy.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.mabinogi.net/pwyll.htm#_ftn9" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2804" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="529" RevisionGUID="53940f0c-50cd-46e6-8c7a-e35b1406a660" CreationDate="2015-05-06T22:47:54.280" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited body" Text="You're right that Arawn didn't explain his actions, but if he did you should consider it a red herring. The most important part of this story is that the hero and the &quot;otherworld&quot; character swap places. From the [footnotes of your online translation][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As this point the plot begins to take the form of another stereotyped&#xD;&#xA;&gt; narrative mytheme, equally familiar throughout the Celtic world. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Otherworld Sojourn, as we might call this scenario, could take a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; number of forms: but always followed the same basic gist: the mortal&#xD;&#xA;&gt; protagonist is lured to an Otherworldly domain, where they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; subsequently abide for a period of time. This occurs at the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; instigation of one or more of the Otherworld beings, and often follows&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a Chase of the White Stag introduction, or some variant thereof.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The purpose of Pwyll's sorjourn in the Indigenous Underworld is to rid&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Arawn of his 'oppression': the rival king Hafgan ('Summer-Bright')&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with whom he is locked in a ongoing and irreconcilable conflict. A&#xD;&#xA;&gt; further example of mortal interventions in Otherworldly conflicts of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this kind in the Celtic world include Arthur's adjudication of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; seasonal dual between Gwynn ap Nudd and Gwerthyfyr ap Greidawl for the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hand of Creiyldyd, on the Calends of May. In this and other respects,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the plot of The Sickness of CuChulain and The Only Jealosy of Emer&#xD;&#xA;&gt; follows this First Branch episode even closer: complete with the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'Chase of the White Stag' entrée. This narrative can be summarised&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[it compares the story with another story]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Like Pwyll, CúChulainn finds himself indebted to Otherworld powers as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a result of abusing magical animals on a hunting expedition. Like&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pwyll also, this encounter carries the appearance of having been&#xD;&#xA;&gt; contrived and instigated by the Otherworld agency. The measured&#xD;&#xA;&gt; responses of Arawn ('I know who you are...'), the location and timing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of their encounter, and its favourable outcome for the Annuvian king&#xD;&#xA;&gt; suggest that the event was no coincidence. Like Cú Chulainn, Pwyll was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in effect drawn and entrapped by the otherworld powers involved. And&#xD;&#xA;&gt; both were required to visit Underworld regions where they were obliged&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to lend their assistance as mortal warriors in the magical&#xD;&#xA;&gt; protagonists' struggles for power. Interestingly as well, the Irish&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Manawydan - Manannan mac Lír - features in this same story as the one&#xD;&#xA;&gt; time spouse of the heroine involved. (As we shall see in subsequent&#xD;&#xA;&gt; chapters, Pwyll and Manawydan become linked in a similar way).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**This is the most relevant section:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; That the denizens of the Indigenous Underworld should be so in need of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the military prowess of mortal warriors is another motif not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; unfamiliar within the Celtic world and beyond. The well known myth of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the aversion of faery-folk to iron is an example of the ambiguous&#xD;&#xA;&gt; power-relationship between themselves and the mortal world. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Indigenous Underworld, however, while being mysteriously vulnerable in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; certain respects, was clearly a source of danger when it came to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; magical initiatives. The trade-off of these respective strengths and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; weaknesses is a frequent theme in fairy tales and popular magical&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tales from around the world. It was within this tradition that the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; narrative of much of the Mabinogi would have been understood.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; *The narratives produced by animistic belief systems often focus on the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; acquisition of power, in its elemental-magical form. The struggle for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; possession of this substance of power is typically waged by any&#xD;&#xA;&gt; variety of means: trickery and cunning prevailing as frequently as any&#xD;&#xA;&gt; other stratagem. In this episode Pwyll is consummately manipulated by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Underworld agent who thereby obtains his power, which becomes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; harnessed to the latter's own agenda in the arena of Annuvian&#xD;&#xA;&gt; politics.* Through an act of impulsive foolishness (significantly, as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; we shall see, involving the dog and the stag), the ironically-named&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pwyll (see p ##-##) had inadvertedly placed himself in a chain of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; events, which would ultimately result in a mysterious fusion between&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dyfed and Annwn.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This story is about the somewhat coercive relationship between the &quot;otherworld&quot; and the real world. *I think it's just as important to the story that Arawn (the otherworlder) takes Pwyll's (the human's) place in the real world:* both the otherworld and the real world have their strengths and weaknesses, and this story is about travelling between the two, and about man's relationship with spirits. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The purpose of god's and spirits isn't to do everything themselves, but (in this story) to coerce and trick mortals into doing things for them. A specific logical reason why Arawn needs Pwyll doesn't exist, because the point of this story is that it's an example of the interactions between the spirit and real world, and not that &quot;Arawn needed Pwyll because Pwyll is really stealthy.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.mabinogi.net/pwyll.htm#_ftn9" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2806" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="516" RevisionGUID="b0725d28-a2b6-413b-958e-234849e31fb5" CreationDate="2015-05-06T22:50:29.050" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="changed character's name (important)" Text="I've been reading [the first branch of the Mabinogion](http://www.mabinogi.net/pwyll.htm), which details the journeys of Pwyll, lord of Dyfed. While hunting, he meets Arawn, king of Annwfn, who strikes a deal with him: The two will switch places for a year. At the end of the year, Pwyll will battle - and kill Hafgan, the other king of Annwfn, in Arawn's stead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both Arawn and Hafgan seem to posses magical powers - as evidenced by Arawn's hunting dogs and his ability to cast enchantments to change a person's appearance - while it does not seem that Pwyll had any special powers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the footnotes, an explanation for Pwyll's victory is given:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; We see here that, rather like the Gawain, Pwyll is able to defeat the Annuvian king by following a prescribed form of behaviour, one that in many ways might seem somewhat counter-intuitive. The denouement of this act, as it were, is Pwyll's refusal to finish what he started and give Hafgan the mortal blow. The underlying implication of this act is that had Pwyll given in to his enemy's entreaty, he would have somehow failed to defeat him. Here, the natural laws of the Otherworld seem diametrically opposed to those of the mortal world, where destroying an enemy in this way would have been simple common sense.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Given that Hafgan would (seemingly) have had the advantage over Pwyll, why did Arawn choose to swap? Wouldn't he have known of the rules of the Otherworld (Annwfn), given that he was one of its kings, and been able to use that to kill Hafgan?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2807" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="530" RevisionGUID="81c75233-5a1e-4d2a-872b-c290054c9fd0" CreationDate="2015-05-06T23:03:41.170" UserId="18" Text="[As I learned](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/508/18) from my previous question, the Toltecs had a myth where the Sun did not move for a day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the year 8 Tochtli, which was 1,347 years after the second calamity and 4,779 years since the creation of the world, it is recorded in their history that **the sun stood still one natural day without moving**,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ~ [*The Historical Works of Fernando de Alva Ixtlilxochitl.* Edited and annotated by Alfredo Chavero, 1892.](http://www.ancientamerica.org/library/media/382chapter11.htm)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This struck me as interesting because this myth also appears in the Bible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 12 On the day the Lord gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the Lord in the presence of Israel:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;pre&gt;&#xD;&#xA;“Sun, stand still over Gibeon,&#xD;&#xA;    and you, moon, over the Valley of Aijalon.”&#xD;&#xA;13 So the sun stood still,&#xD;&#xA;    and the moon stopped,&#xD;&#xA;    till the nation avenged itself on[b] its enemies,&#xD;&#xA;as it is written in the Book of Jashar.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;/pre&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day.** 14 There has never been a day like it before or since, a day when the Lord listened to a human being. Surely the Lord was fighting for Israel!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ~ [Joshua 10:12-14](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=joshua+10%3A12-14&amp;version=NIV)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This made me wonder if these are the same event. Do the chronologies of these myths match up?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2808" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="530" RevisionGUID="81c75233-5a1e-4d2a-872b-c290054c9fd0" CreationDate="2015-05-06T23:03:41.170" UserId="18" Text="Did the sun stand still at around the same time in Toltec and Judeo-Christian mythologies?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2809" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="530" RevisionGUID="81c75233-5a1e-4d2a-872b-c290054c9fd0" CreationDate="2015-05-06T23:03:41.170" UserId="18" Text="|chronology|judeo-christian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2810" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="531" RevisionGUID="2c48cd10-bbe8-41f3-bb10-7c1325c0a2a6" CreationDate="2015-05-06T23:03:41.170" UserId="18" Text="Alas, **no**, they do not happen around the same time. The time difference is about 1350 years.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The corresponding footnote in the source for the Toltec version states that&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 9. Anytime a number is in front of a name such as 8 Tochtli, the number refers to the day and the month and is correlated with a year. **The date in which the sun stood stilt [sic] corresponds with 52 BC** in the dates given by Ixtlilxochitl.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Emphasis mine.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the Judeo-Christian version in Joshua, [this BibleHub website page](http://biblehub.com/timeline/joshua/1.htm) has a chronology for Joshua and gives **1406 B.C.** for the events of Joshua 10.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, these two myths are separated by **1354** years. Hence, these two events **did not** happen around the same time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you're really desperate to make the dates coincide, you can try to subtract 1664 years (the length of an age for the Toltecs) for no real good reason from 52 B.C. and get a date of 1716 B.C., which is only *310 years* away from the Joshua version! A small enough time span to invoke fuzzy memories and the Toltec desire to have significant events fit into a numerically significant chronolgy." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2814" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="532" RevisionGUID="b06213a2-068c-4f1c-bbe8-a07f27cf8ad4" CreationDate="2015-05-06T23:59:15.400" UserId="43" Text="I've been reading Edith Hamilton's anthology Mythology. In the introduction she says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Hera is often called &quot;cow-faced,&quot; as if the adjective had somehow stuck to her through all her changes from a divine cow to the very human queen of heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In what extant Greek tales is Hera called &quot;cow-faced&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2815" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="532" RevisionGUID="b06213a2-068c-4f1c-bbe8-a07f27cf8ad4" CreationDate="2015-05-06T23:59:15.400" UserId="43" Text="Where was Hera called &quot;cow-faced&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2816" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="532" RevisionGUID="b06213a2-068c-4f1c-bbe8-a07f27cf8ad4" CreationDate="2015-05-06T23:59:15.400" UserId="43" Text="|greek|hera|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2817" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="533" RevisionGUID="6bdf43a5-0765-48de-82d8-4012afac4c0b" CreationDate="2015-05-07T00:18:54.707" UserId="183" Text="In [the second branch of the Mabinogion](http://www.mabinogi.net/branwen.htm), King Bendigeidfran and his men travel from Britain (&quot;the Island of the Mighty&quot;, or *Ynys Y Kedeirn*), intent on avenging the punishment of his sister, Branwen, at the hands of the Irish (which takes place against the will of the Irish king Matholwch).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is written that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Bendigeidfran, and the aforementioned hosting sailed towards Ireland. The ocean was not extensive [back] then: he went by wading. There used to be nothing except two rivers called the Lli and the Archen. And after that the ocean spread out, and the sea flooded the kingdoms. Then he advanced, carrying all the string-minstrels on his back, making for the land of Ireland.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Bendigeidfran was a giant, and so it was easy for him to cross, though the rivers were too deep for normal men to cross (he looks like a mountain from afar).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why did the Lli and Archen rivers flood, creating an ocean (which we today call the Irish Sea)? The two are never mentioned again in the Mabinogion (I checked the three other branches), and Bendigeidfran soon drops out of the story (I won't spoil the reason why), so giants crossing rivers are not involved.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a side note, the rivers seem purely fictional; I do not know if they show up in any other legends, though." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2818" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="533" RevisionGUID="6bdf43a5-0765-48de-82d8-4012afac4c0b" CreationDate="2015-05-07T00:18:54.707" UserId="183" Text="Why did the Lli and Archen rivers flood, separating Ireland and Britain?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2819" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="533" RevisionGUID="6bdf43a5-0765-48de-82d8-4012afac4c0b" CreationDate="2015-05-07T00:18:54.707" UserId="183" Text="|arthurian|welsh|mabinogion|irish|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2822" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="534" RevisionGUID="5aabb528-5515-4f9a-81f7-c9913dea7dda" CreationDate="2015-05-07T01:08:15.160" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2823" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="535" RevisionGUID="c62a7181-72af-4987-94ce-7231a4684230" CreationDate="2015-05-07T01:08:15.160" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2824" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="536" RevisionGUID="6b36450f-232c-4392-9273-16906b8fb4e0" CreationDate="2015-05-07T01:10:21.330" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2825" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="537" RevisionGUID="7c689c37-baad-42fc-93ea-dd405f5d64f9" CreationDate="2015-05-07T01:10:21.330" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2827" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="538" RevisionGUID="0d578ced-ed69-48b2-bf2e-655fc74ce6c3" CreationDate="2015-05-07T01:16:26.077" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2828" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="539" RevisionGUID="ab8c075e-2566-4c6d-903d-9dcef408d60f" CreationDate="2015-05-07T01:16:26.077" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2829" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="539" RevisionGUID="abffa5d3-61d7-40d4-a97e-a90c18d69bae" CreationDate="2015-05-07T01:31:21.223" UserId="108" Comment="added 206 characters in body" Text="For questions on the mythical container object from Christian lore, noted for being used to collect the blood of Christ. The Holy Grail, and the search for it, is a prominent element of [arthurian] legends." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2830" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="539" RevisionGUID="abffa5d3-61d7-40d4-a97e-a90c18d69bae" CreationDate="2015-05-07T01:31:21.223" Comment="Proposed by 108 approved by 183, 11 edit id of 141" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2831" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="535" RevisionGUID="b0f23b2f-3a98-4c28-8ae4-ea46c7940697" CreationDate="2015-05-07T01:31:24.253" UserId="108" Comment="added 55 characters in body" Text="For questions on the mythology and folklore of Ireland." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2832" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="535" RevisionGUID="b0f23b2f-3a98-4c28-8ae4-ea46c7940697" CreationDate="2015-05-07T01:31:24.253" Comment="Proposed by 108 approved by 183, 11 edit id of 139" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2833" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="537" RevisionGUID="4f2fc1fa-194f-46c5-9f66-3c71fb037618" CreationDate="2015-05-07T01:31:28.017" UserId="108" Comment="added 94 characters in body" Text="For questions on Yggdrasil, a mythical tree which connects the nine worlds of Norse cosmology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2834" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="537" RevisionGUID="4f2fc1fa-194f-46c5-9f66-3c71fb037618" CreationDate="2015-05-07T01:31:28.017" Comment="Proposed by 108 approved by 183, 11 edit id of 140" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2835" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="540" RevisionGUID="4864bd89-ac3c-4977-9323-3c1a0ae3f22d" CreationDate="2015-05-07T01:48:37.157" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2836" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="541" RevisionGUID="337e25c9-44d0-4d32-8d19-b3923fd7edcb" CreationDate="2015-05-07T01:48:37.157" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2837" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="542" RevisionGUID="79ba1ee8-48cb-4290-84cc-f0bba32638d4" CreationDate="2015-05-07T01:51:04.647" UserId="11" Text="This is a reference to the greek word [βο-ῶπις](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=bow=pis) or bo-opis, which is translated in different places as one of:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - ox-eyed&#xD;&#xA; - cow-eyed&#xD;&#xA; - cow-faced&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Homer uses it throughout his works; it is one of his [Homeric Epithets](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epithets_in_Homer). For example, he uses it in the [Iliad, Book 1, lines 531-567](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad1.htm):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ‘Hera’ replied the father of men and gods, ‘do not expect to know all my thoughts: though you are my wife you would find it a burden. Whatever it is right for you to hear, no immortal, no human, shall know before you; but of what I plan without reference to the gods, make no question, do not ask.’&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ‘Dread son of Cronos,’ the **ox-eyed** queen replied, ‘what is this? I have never questioned you, nor asked: you have ever peace to think on what you wish. But now my heart fears silver-footed Thetis, daughter of the Old Man of the Sea, has swayed you; for she knelt by you at dawn and clasped your knees. Dare I imagine that you bowed to her, gave her a firm pledge of support for Achilles, and promised slaughter by the Greek ships?’" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2838" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="543" RevisionGUID="48df2822-90ca-445b-8b1a-62ad52a64236" CreationDate="2015-05-07T01:51:06.540" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2839" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="544" RevisionGUID="f2fd9366-40f9-40f2-a115-9c3f552577e8" CreationDate="2015-05-07T01:51:06.540" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2840" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="350" RevisionGUID="95662df9-4d9d-459c-be2e-30bf1c2d810e" CreationDate="2015-05-07T02:16:37.870" UserId="183" Comment="added 158 characters in body" Text="The Epic of Gilgamesh is a Mesopotamian epic poem about Gilgamesh, a king who, after the death of his friend Enkidu, sets out to achieve immortality. This tag can also be used to refer to Gilgamesh himself." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2841" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="350" RevisionGUID="95662df9-4d9d-459c-be2e-30bf1c2d810e" CreationDate="2015-05-07T02:16:37.870" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 79, 11 edit id of 142" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2842" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="544" RevisionGUID="00c055c0-8d59-45a6-9ad3-082ce577be92" CreationDate="2015-05-07T02:16:42.570" UserId="183" Comment="added 90 characters in body" Text="For questions about the passage of time within a certain myth and its significant effects." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2843" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="544" RevisionGUID="00c055c0-8d59-45a6-9ad3-082ce577be92" CreationDate="2015-05-07T02:16:42.570" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 79, 11 edit id of 146" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2844" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="368" RevisionGUID="22f52b83-97e5-4b6d-bc16-2e7073d5b38c" CreationDate="2015-05-07T02:16:49.460" UserId="183" Comment="added 75 characters in body" Text="For questions about the place of mythology in history, as opposed to potentially fictional mythological accounts of history." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2845" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="368" RevisionGUID="22f52b83-97e5-4b6d-bc16-2e7073d5b38c" CreationDate="2015-05-07T02:16:49.460" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 79, 11 edit id of 145" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2846" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="541" RevisionGUID="a4b7b25b-a300-4aeb-a1ac-2605ebe858e6" CreationDate="2015-05-07T02:16:56.643" UserId="183" Comment="added 140 characters in body" Text="For questions about identifying a particular myth based on certain known facts or a basic description of its context, characters and events." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2847" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="541" RevisionGUID="a4b7b25b-a300-4aeb-a1ac-2605ebe858e6" CreationDate="2015-05-07T02:16:56.643" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 79, 11 edit id of 144" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2848" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="351" RevisionGUID="501827b7-8c7a-4520-b38a-fec6ad20b474" CreationDate="2015-05-07T02:17:01.667" UserId="183" Comment="added 51 characters in body" Text="For questions about the Epic of Gilgamesh, a Mesopotamian epic poem, as well as its eponymous hero." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2849" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="351" RevisionGUID="501827b7-8c7a-4520-b38a-fec6ad20b474" CreationDate="2015-05-07T02:17:01.667" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 79, 11 edit id of 143" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2850" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="542" RevisionGUID="a4377a87-fcea-46a4-b1d4-59a8530ff793" CreationDate="2015-05-07T02:21:41.160" UserId="11" Comment="added 133 characters in body" Text="This is a reference to the greek word [βο-ῶπις](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=bow=pis) or bo-opis, which is translated in different places as one of:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - ox-eyed&#xD;&#xA; - cow-eyed&#xD;&#xA; - cow-faced&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Homer uses it throughout his works; it is one of his [Homeric Epithets](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epithets_in_Homer). For example, he uses it in the [Iliad, Book 1, lines 531-567](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad1.htm):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ‘Hera’ replied the father of men and gods, ‘do not expect to know all my thoughts: though you are my wife you would find it a burden. Whatever it is right for you to hear, no immortal, no human, shall know before you; but of what I plan without reference to the gods, make no question, do not ask.’&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ‘Dread son of Cronos,’ the **ox-eyed** queen replied, ‘what is this? I have never questioned you, nor asked: you have ever peace to think on what you wish. But now my heart fears silver-footed Thetis, daughter of the Old Man of the Sea, has swayed you; for she knelt by you at dawn and clasped your knees. Dare I imagine that you bowed to her, gave her a firm pledge of support for Achilles, and promised slaughter by the Greek ships?’&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is likely Homer chose to give her this nickname as her [patron animal was the cow](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hera#Emblems)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2851" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="545" RevisionGUID="531219ee-7c7d-4e6c-8173-fa342c629475" CreationDate="2015-05-07T03:16:00.667" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="In the story Culhwch (sometimes spelled Kilhwch) and Olwen, the story is interrupted by a seemingly endless list of character's names:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I seek it from Kai, and Bedwyr, and Greidawl Galldonyd, and Gwythyr&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the son of Greidawl, and Greid the son of Eri, and Kynddelig&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kyvarwydd, and Tathal Twyll Goleu, and Maelwys the son of Baeddan, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Crychwr the son of Nes, and Cubert the son of Daere, and Percos the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; son of Poch, and Lluber Beuthach, and Corvil Bervach, and Gwynn the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; son of Nudd, and Edeyrn the son of Nudd, and Gadwy the son of Geraint,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and Prince Fflewddur Fflam, and Ruawn Pebyr the son of Dorath, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Bradwen the son of Moren Mynawc, and Moren Mynawc himself, and Dalldav&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the son of Kimin Côv, and the son of Alun Dyved, and the son of Saidi,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and the son of Gwryon, and Uchtryd Ardywad Kad, and Kynwas Curvagyl,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and Gwrhyr Gwarthegvras, and Isperyr Ewingath, and Gallcoyt Govynynat,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and Duach, and Grathach, and Nerthach, the sons of Gwawrddur Kyrvach&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (these men came forth from the confines of hell), and Kilydd&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Canhastyr, and Canastyr Kanllaw, and Cors Cant-Ewin, and Esgeir&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gulhwch Govynkawn, and Drustwrn Hayarn, and Glewlwyd Gavaelvawr, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lloch Llawwynnyawc, and Aunwas Adeiniawc, and Sinnoch the son of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Seithved, and Gwennwynwyn the son of Naw, and Bedyw the son of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Seithved, and Gobrwy the son of Echel Vorddwyttwll, and Echel&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Vorddwyttwll himself, and Mael the son of Roycol, and Dadweir&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dallpenn, and Garwyli the son of Gwythawc Gwyr, and Gwythawc Gwyr&#xD;&#xA;&gt; himself...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Culhwch and Olwen, AncientTexts.org][1])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(That list doesn't stop; it goes on for several pages.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the purpose of listing these seemingly random characters? Most of them don't even appear again later in the story. Why would any storyteller do this?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/culhwch.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2852" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="545" RevisionGUID="531219ee-7c7d-4e6c-8173-fa342c629475" CreationDate="2015-05-07T03:16:00.667" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="Why is there a long list of names in the story &quot;Culhwch and Olwen&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2853" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="545" RevisionGUID="531219ee-7c7d-4e6c-8173-fa342c629475" CreationDate="2015-05-07T03:16:00.667" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="|welsh|mabinogion|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2854" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="546" RevisionGUID="738a138f-aa58-4250-9490-966fa592fbad" CreationDate="2015-05-07T03:16:00.667" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="That is called an [epic catalogue][1] ([TVTropes link!][2]), and is used in several old stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Part of the point of this specific epic catalogue is that Culhwch is invoking each member of Arthur's court by name (&quot;this boon I likewise seek at the hands of thy warriors. I seek it from [list of names]&quot;). Because Culhwch needs not just Arthur’s help but also the help of his court, it makes sense that he asks each night individually -- it shows that member's of Arthur’s court are respected as individuals. In addition, the catalogue shows the size of Arthur's court.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In general, catalogue’s are used for similar reasons:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; By virtue of these three basic qualities, catalogues can be used to at least four different ends: (1) to describe characters of the plot, (2) to intensify the presentation of the events, (3) to foreshadow future events and create suspense, (4) and to provoke or increase the reader's emotional involvement in the narrative. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Gaertner, Jan, The Homeric Catalogues and Their Function in Epic Narrative][3])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, this specific catalogue is also interesting for a completely different reason: **it is a parody of epic catalogues and other narrative techniques!** If you read the passage carefully, you will see some funny names:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hirerwm and Hiratrwm. (The day they went on a visit three Cantrevs provided for their entertainment, and they feasted until noon and drank until night, when they went to sleep. And then they devoured the heads of the vermin through hunger, as if they had never eaten anything. When they made a visit they left neither the fat nor the lean, neither the hot nor the cold, the sour nor the sweet, the fresh nor the salt, the boiled nor the raw.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Gwevyl the son of Gwestad (on the day that he was sad, he would let one of his lips drop below his waist, while he turned upon the other like a cap upon his head). Uchtryd Varyf Draws (who spread his red untrimmed beard over the eight-and-forty rafters which were in Arthur's Hall).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there could be more than satire going on in this story. While the story Culhwch and Olwen has humorous overtones, that shouldn't detract from the &quot;sacredness&quot; of it. In fact, in many European stories, humor and seriousness exist at the same time. From [Mabinogion.info][4]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is crucial to realise the extent to which this differs from modern&#xD;&#xA;&gt; narrative-cultural norms, where the comedic and the dramatic are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mutually exclusive. Modern audiences have become accustomed to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; specialised use of parodic humour as a device to undermine, deflate or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dismiss ‘serious’ genres; making it hard for us to understand how the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; comedic and the dramatic can co-exist within the same artistic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; expression. But such incompatability of genres has by no means always&#xD;&#xA;&gt; been the case. Just as the monstrous gargoyle can inhabit the same&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cathedral wall as the saintly icon; or the irreverent doodle can adorn&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the exegetical manuscript – it cannot always be said that the presence&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of humour or whimsy within the medieval narrative was intended to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; undermine its psycho-dramatic potency. Indeed, more often than not,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; such flourishes signalled a generalised intensification of affect: a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cultural experience in which all emotional registers (wonder,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hilarity, excitement, fear etc.) were simultaneously subject to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; heightened stimulation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think that's pretty interesting. Don't you?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_catalogue&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EpicCatalog&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/4477439 &#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://mabinogion.info/culhwch.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2855" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="547" RevisionGUID="ea4cf11e-8f01-4e40-9331-bf17bc4cbb5c" CreationDate="2015-05-07T04:12:04.193" UserId="151" Text="They exist in the mythology of Sumeria:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;.[are the Sumerian deities][1] of the old primordial line; they are chthonic deities of fertility, associated eventually with the underworld, where they became judges. They take their name from the old sky god An (Anu).&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    .........&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Anunnaki appear in the Babylonian creation myth, Enuma Elish&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;     .......&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Anunnaki are mentioned in The Epic of Gilgamesh when Utnapishtim tells the story of the flood. The seven judges of hell are called the Anunna&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  ........&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anunnaki" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2857" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="153" RevisionGUID="15275ec9-eb06-4901-a4e9-18e1e057c223" CreationDate="2015-05-07T05:54:35.253" UserId="144" Comment="Change of tag [australian] to [indigenous-australian] as per this meta: http://meta.mythology.stackexchange.com/q/173/144" Text="|creation|symbolism|indigenous-australian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2858" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="153" RevisionGUID="15275ec9-eb06-4901-a4e9-18e1e057c223" CreationDate="2015-05-07T05:54:35.253" Comment="Proposed by 144 approved by 124 edit id of 149" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2859" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="512" RevisionGUID="bf158a3a-70db-4fd9-817f-1ef182d50597" CreationDate="2015-05-07T06:09:52.523" UserId="36" Comment="added 113 characters in body" Text="###The Olympians defeated the Titans on [Mt. Olympus][1] and decided to build their kingdom at the scene of their greatest victory.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Titanomachy][2] (the great war between the Olympians and the Titans) took place on Olympus. &#xD;After the Olympians defeated the Titans, they proceeded to build their kingdom there, in honour of their victory.&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The exact mountain range referred to by Homer is still unknown as he offers little to no geological information about it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But there are some theories that the Greeks assumed Olympus was the seat of power for their gods as it was so high it _touched the clouds_. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If this is true, then of all of the mountain ranges called Olympus throughout ancient Greece, Turkey and Cyprus only one breaks the 2000 meter trehsold to reach the clouds :  [Mytikas][3] at 2918 meters (9570 feet).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.greek-gods.info/ancient-greece/mount-olympus/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.greekmyths-greekmythology.com/titans-and-titanomachy/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://sacredsites.com/europe/greece/mt_olympus.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2862" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="527" RevisionGUID="a828175a-4ead-4a7c-96f0-2a73b46d8cde" CreationDate="2015-05-07T07:19:28.223" UserId="57" Comment="I like the image, but it appears to be copyrighted. " Text="###The [Pomola][1] is  a snow bird spirit in Native American mythology, it lived on [Mt Katahdin][2] and caused cold weather&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In Penobscot folklore, the Pomola was a bird spirit that lived on Mt Katahdin. It was associated with night, wind, snow, and storms. Apparently it had a moose's head according to some legends. The [Penobscots][3] and [Abenakis][4] avoided climbing to the top of this mountain so as not to disturb it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.native-languages.org/pomola.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/TjWikiKatahdin.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.penobscotnation.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.tolatsga.org/aben.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/7yCHU.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2864" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="287" RevisionGUID="ad3acfc0-5498-4fe1-af60-d52cda610523" CreationDate="2015-05-07T08:20:37.140" UserId="144" Comment="Change of tag [australian] to [indigenous-australian] as per this meta: http://meta.mythology.stackexchange.com/q/173/144" Text="|indigenous-australian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2865" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="287" RevisionGUID="ad3acfc0-5498-4fe1-af60-d52cda610523" CreationDate="2015-05-07T08:20:37.140" Comment="Proposed by 144 approved by 79, 29 edit id of 148" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2866" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="109" RevisionGUID="543e84e2-d198-471f-b9ff-f236b738d679" CreationDate="2015-05-07T08:20:44.677" UserId="144" Comment="Change of tag [australian] to [indigenous-australian] as per this meta: http://meta.mythology.stackexchange.com/q/173/144" Text="|creation|chronology|indigenous-australian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2867" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="109" RevisionGUID="543e84e2-d198-471f-b9ff-f236b738d679" CreationDate="2015-05-07T08:20:44.677" Comment="Proposed by 144 approved by 79, 29 edit id of 150" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2869" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="548" RevisionGUID="2f33b6bb-c7ec-4da8-975e-d8328198f9a3" CreationDate="2015-05-07T10:07:58.077" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2870" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="549" RevisionGUID="762613f5-2cd2-4235-8538-8405537ca887" CreationDate="2015-05-07T10:07:58.077" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2871" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="360" RevisionGUID="7e0df7de-592c-48f1-a0f2-84b09a6b3637" CreationDate="2015-05-07T10:14:55.170" UserId="29" Comment="added 8 characters in body" Text="In Greek mythology, there is [Chiron](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiron), a centaur, and [Charon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charon_%28mythology%29), the ferryman of the Underworld. They couldn't be more different, yet they have such similar names. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Is there a reason for this?**" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2872" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="550" RevisionGUID="c826dc11-dea0-479c-9920-ab662f6b44ed" CreationDate="2015-05-07T10:32:13.733" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2873" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="551" RevisionGUID="2abfe241-8f15-4382-894b-cd5e305953f9" CreationDate="2015-05-07T10:32:13.733" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2875" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="523" RevisionGUID="386fed5e-5ecd-454c-a7a2-04a956b1971c" CreationDate="2015-05-07T11:01:35.117" UserId="36" Comment="edited title" Text="Hephaestus and Medusa had a son named Cacus. How was Hephaestus shielded from being turned to stone?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2876" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="549" RevisionGUID="0c698761-4a82-48cb-9914-2b42c8c5be28" CreationDate="2015-05-07T11:01:37.917" UserId="53" Comment="added 54 characters in body" Text="For questions regarding the return to life of the dead" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2877" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="549" RevisionGUID="0c698761-4a82-48cb-9914-2b42c8c5be28" CreationDate="2015-05-07T11:01:37.917" Comment="Proposed by 53 approved by 29, 108 edit id of 151" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2878" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="552" RevisionGUID="de6dfa51-fb6e-4301-9578-954b25251f6e" CreationDate="2015-05-07T11:27:02.523" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2879" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="553" RevisionGUID="c30aa113-8a0c-44d2-8511-6743cd228aec" CreationDate="2015-05-07T11:27:02.523" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2880" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="418" RevisionGUID="691609a5-616b-4f19-8eb9-3562c0bd399d" CreationDate="2015-05-07T12:09:39.440" UserId="29" Comment="deleted 14 characters in body" Text="There is no direct link between `Chiron` and `Charon`. That similarity means nothing; to have a direct link through their names, their meanings would have to be similar, not just the letters of which they consist.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Το όνομα Χάρων πιθανότατα προέρχεται από το επίθετο &quot;χάρων&quot;, που αποτελεί ποιητικό τύπο του αρχαίου χαροπός/ -ωπός &lt; ρήμα χαίρω. Δεδομένου ότι ο Χάρων ήταν χθόνια θεότητα, η απευθείας συσχέτιση με το ρήμα χαίρω οφείλεται σε ευφημισμό.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This Greek text implies that `Charon` is named after the verb `Χαίρω`, which means to be glad. His name is essentially a euphemism. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Χείρων (από το χειρ) είναι αυτός που είναι ικανός στα χέρια, αυτός που τα χειρίζεται καλά. Και φυσικά ένας γιατρός τα χρησιμοποιεί για να γιατρεύει. Για να αλείφει βότανα. Για να διορθώνει τα σπασίματα. Για να κλείνει τις πληγές. Δηλαδή χειροπράκτης ή και χειρούργος. Τέτοιος λοιπόν γιατρός ήταν ο μέγιστος Χείρων. Με τη βοήθεια των χεριών του γιάτρευε κάθε αρρώστια.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Τhis Greek text implies that `Χείρων` is someone adept at using his hands (hand is `Χείρ` in ancient Greek), since `Chiron` was a doctor who would heal every sickness with his medicine.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I also want to note that `-ων` is a suffix of many ancient Greek names (`Chiron` is Χείρ**ων** and `Charon` is Χάρ**ων** in Greek), so you could not suppose a link between the two judging from such a little amount of letters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sources:** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* http://www.pame.gr/istoria/mithologia/kentavroi.html&#xD;&#xA;* http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A7%CE%AC%CF%81%CF%89%CE%BD_%28%CE%BC%CF%85%CE%B8%CE%BF%CE%BB%CE%BF%CE%B3%CE%AF%CE%B1%29" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2882" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="554" RevisionGUID="d2cc0908-8f18-49aa-8840-82157e70e649" CreationDate="2015-05-07T13:05:21.140" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2883" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="555" RevisionGUID="be808967-699a-4c27-adaf-07c0fe2b72e9" CreationDate="2015-05-07T13:05:21.140" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2884" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="551" RevisionGUID="fe866c76-1171-4096-bea9-8830ec5cca5d" CreationDate="2015-05-07T13:19:01.317" UserId="53" Comment="added 55 characters in body" Text="For questions regarding Australian Aboriginal mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2885" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="551" RevisionGUID="fe866c76-1171-4096-bea9-8830ec5cca5d" CreationDate="2015-05-07T13:19:01.317" Comment="Proposed by 53 approved by 57, 11 edit id of 152" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2886" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="555" RevisionGUID="99988716-ed3a-42fb-977e-4f1f431809db" CreationDate="2015-05-07T13:40:38.173" UserId="53" Comment="added 65 characters in body" Text="For questions regarding the mythology of the Indian subcontinent." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2887" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="555" RevisionGUID="99988716-ed3a-42fb-977e-4f1f431809db" CreationDate="2015-05-07T13:40:38.173" Comment="Proposed by 53 approved by 11, 38 edit id of 154" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2888" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="553" RevisionGUID="4e06a06e-0c99-487a-b8d8-457fc64c465f" CreationDate="2015-05-07T13:40:51.200" UserId="53" Comment="added 87 characters in body" Text="Pandora was created by Hephaestus as first woman on Earth according to Greek mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2889" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="553" RevisionGUID="4e06a06e-0c99-487a-b8d8-457fc64c465f" CreationDate="2015-05-07T13:40:51.200" Comment="Proposed by 53 approved by 11, 38 edit id of 153" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2890" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="556" RevisionGUID="30011a4e-d3cb-4fbe-bd2f-49f3dd4f1d58" CreationDate="2015-05-07T13:57:55.377" UserId="11" Text="The [Wikipedia on the Erinyes (Furies)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erinyes) is that they live in Erebus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Erinyes live in Erebus and are more ancient deities than any of the Olympians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is [backed up by Homer](http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Erinyes.html):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to the Homeric notion, the Erinnyes, whom the poet conceives as distinct beings, are reckoned among those who inhabit Erebos, srwhere they rest until some curse pronounced upon a criminal calls them to life and activity. (Il. ix 571, Od. xv. 234.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the Wikipedia [entry on Erebus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erebus) describes it/him as a chthonic deity:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Greek mythology, Erebus /ˈɛrəbəs/, also Erebos (Greek: Ἔρεβος, &quot;deep darkness, shadow&quot;),[1] was often conceived as a primordial deity, representing the personification of darkness; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is backed up by [Hesiod's Theogony](https://www.msu.edu/~tyrrell/theogon.pdf):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; From Chawos were born Erebos and black Night.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; From Night, again, were born Aether and Day, whom she &#xD;&#xA;&gt; conceived and bore after mingling with Erebos in philotês.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm confused. **Is Erebos a person or a place?**" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2891" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="556" RevisionGUID="30011a4e-d3cb-4fbe-bd2f-49f3dd4f1d58" CreationDate="2015-05-07T13:57:55.377" UserId="11" Text="Is Erebos a deity or a place?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2892" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="556" RevisionGUID="30011a4e-d3cb-4fbe-bd2f-49f3dd4f1d58" CreationDate="2015-05-07T13:57:55.377" UserId="11" Text="|greek|erinyes|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2894" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="557" RevisionGUID="bc6deb1d-aa3a-4b79-b9f4-0cf551d9b890" CreationDate="2015-05-07T14:13:51.013" UserId="57" Text="As your Wikipedia quote notes, Erebos is the personification of darkness. He is neither a deity nor a domain; he is both. Which aspect of him we are talking about, depends on context. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a common pattern for [primordials][1]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Chaos is the personification of the void, but also the void itself.&#xD;&#xA;- Ouranos is the personification of the sky, but also the sky itself. &#xD;&#xA;- Gaia is the personification of the earth, but also the earth itself. &#xD;&#xA;- etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_primordial_deities" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2895" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="558" RevisionGUID="527da469-eae1-4beb-9a8a-ba4445323273" CreationDate="2015-05-07T14:13:52.960" UserId="65" Text="From the [Erebus Wiki][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Greek literature the name Erebus is also used of a region of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greek underworld where the dead pass immediately after dying, and is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sometimes used interchangeably with Tartarus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So Erebus is a person and a place. Just like Hades is a person and a place.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erebus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2896" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="556" RevisionGUID="0cc550d2-c48c-4308-85e4-d6a7f59b1395" CreationDate="2015-05-07T14:15:28.690" UserId="11" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="The [Wikipedia on the Erinyes (Furies)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erinyes) is that they live in Erebus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Erinyes live in Erebus and are more ancient deities than any of the Olympians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is [backed up by Homer](http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Erinyes.html):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to the Homeric notion, the Erinnyes, whom the poet conceives as distinct beings, are reckoned among those who inhabit Erebos, srwhere they rest until some curse pronounced upon a criminal calls them to life and activity. (Il. ix 571, Od. xv. 234.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the Wikipedia [entry on Erebus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erebus) describes it/him as a chthonic deity:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Greek mythology, Erebus /ˈɛrəbəs/, also Erebos (Greek: Ἔρεβος, &quot;deep darkness, shadow&quot;),[1] was often conceived as a primordial deity, representing the personification of darkness; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is backed up by [Hesiod's Theogony](https://www.msu.edu/~tyrrell/theogon.pdf):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; From Chawos were born Erebos and black Night.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; From Night, again, were born Aether and Day, whom she &#xD;&#xA;&gt; conceived and bore after mingling with Erebos in philotês.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm confused. **Is Erebos a deity or a place?**" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2897" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="360" RevisionGUID="b0433890-2561-4f7a-9953-060150553efe" CreationDate="2015-05-07T14:24:27.160" UserId="10" Comment="added 195 characters in body" Text="In Greek mythology, there is [Chiron](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiron), a centaur, and [Charon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charon_%28mythology%29), the ferryman of the Underworld. They couldn't be more different, yet they have such similar names. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Is there a reason for this?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Edit:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As said in the comments, the names in Greek are Χείρων for Chiron and Χάρων for Charon. This is a little bit bigger difference (two letters), but I decided it should be mentioned. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2898" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="559" RevisionGUID="c159a7df-0b35-4d73-b540-d0491258f156" CreationDate="2015-05-07T14:26:03.103" UserId="65" Text="The only thing in common is the spelling.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;LOK in Norse means - The end, or to lock the end.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So Loki would be who everyone goes to when they die.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;UTGARD in Norse, from [the wiki][1] means - Outyards or outlands&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Utgard-Loki is the ruler of the Outyards (Utgard) and his name is also Loki so the name means, Loki ruler of Utgard.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Logi in Norse literally means fire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Atgar%C3%B0ar" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2899" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="557" RevisionGUID="29a85310-65c9-4094-9416-6ee24164743b" CreationDate="2015-05-07T14:28:19.417" UserId="57" Comment="added 2123 characters in body" Text="As your Wikipedia quote notes, Erebos is the personification of darkness. He is neither a deity nor a domain; he is both. Which aspect of him we are talking about, depends on context. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a common pattern for [primordials][1]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Chaos is the personification of the void, but also the void itself.&#xD;&#xA;- Ouranos is the personification of the sky, but also the sky itself. &#xD;&#xA;- Gaia is the personification of the earth, but also the earth itself. &#xD;&#xA;- etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lastly, at least according to Hesiod, Erebos is distinct from Tartarus (emphasis mine): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hail, children of Zeus! Grant lovely song and celebrate the holy race of the deathless gods who are for ever, those that were born of Earth and starry Heaven and gloomy Night and them that briny Sea did rear. Tell how at the first gods and earth came to be, and rivers, and the boundless sea with its raging swell, and the gleaming stars, and the wide heaven above, and the gods who were born of them, givers of good things, and how they divided their wealth, and how they shared their honors amongst them, and also how at the first they took many-folded Olympus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These things declare to me from the beginning, you Muses who dwell in the house of Olympus, and tell me which of them first came to be. In truth at first Chaos came to be, but next wide-bosomed Earth, the ever-sure foundation of all1the deathless ones who hold the peaks of snowy Olympus, and *dim Tartarus in the depth of the wide-pathed Earth*, and Eros (Love), fairest among the deathless gods, who unnerves the limbs and overcomes the mind and wise counsels of all gods and all men within them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *From Chaos came forth Erebus and black Night*; but of Night were born Aether and Day, whom she conceived and bore from union in love with Erebus. And Earth first bore starry Heaven, equal to herself, to cover her on every side, and to be an ever-sure abiding-place for the blessed gods. And she brought forth long hills, graceful haunts of the goddess Nymphs who dwell amongst the glens of the hills. She bore also the fruitless deep with his raging swell, Pontus, without sweet union of love. But afterwards she lay with Heaven and bore deep-swirling Oceanus, Coeus and Crius and Hyperion and Iapetus, Theia and Rhea, Themis and Mnemosyne and gold-crowned Phoebe and lovely Tethys. After them was born Cronos the wily, youngest and most terrible of her children, and he hated his lusty sire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Theogony, Hesiod, lines 104-138](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0020.tlg001.perseus-eng1:104-138)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_primordial_deities" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2900" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="557" RevisionGUID="79125054-79b6-49f5-bcaf-3f42ca97b810" CreationDate="2015-05-07T14:29:43.533" UserId="57" Comment="added 2123 characters in body" Text="As your Wikipedia quote notes, Erebos is the personification of darkness. He is neither a deity nor a domain; he is both. Which aspect of him we are talking about, depends on context. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a common pattern for [primordials][1]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Chaos is the personification of the void, but also the void itself.&#xD;&#xA;- Ouranos is the personification of the sky, but also the sky itself. &#xD;&#xA;- Gaia is the personification of the earth, but also the earth itself. &#xD;&#xA;- etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lastly, while it's true that some writers may have used Erebos as an alternative name for Tartarus, Hesiod considers them distinct (emphasis mine): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hail, children of Zeus! Grant lovely song and celebrate the holy race of the deathless gods who are for ever, those that were born of Earth and starry Heaven and gloomy Night and them that briny Sea did rear. Tell how at the first gods and earth came to be, and rivers, and the boundless sea with its raging swell, and the gleaming stars, and the wide heaven above, and the gods who were born of them, givers of good things, and how they divided their wealth, and how they shared their honors amongst them, and also how at the first they took many-folded Olympus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These things declare to me from the beginning, you Muses who dwell in the house of Olympus, and tell me which of them first came to be. In truth at first Chaos came to be, but next wide-bosomed Earth, the ever-sure foundation of all1the deathless ones who hold the peaks of snowy Olympus, and *dim Tartarus in the depth of the wide-pathed Earth*, and Eros (Love), fairest among the deathless gods, who unnerves the limbs and overcomes the mind and wise counsels of all gods and all men within them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *From Chaos came forth Erebus and black Night*; but of Night were born Aether and Day, whom she conceived and bore from union in love with Erebus. And Earth first bore starry Heaven, equal to herself, to cover her on every side, and to be an ever-sure abiding-place for the blessed gods. And she brought forth long hills, graceful haunts of the goddess Nymphs who dwell amongst the glens of the hills. She bore also the fruitless deep with his raging swell, Pontus, without sweet union of love. But afterwards she lay with Heaven and bore deep-swirling Oceanus, Coeus and Crius and Hyperion and Iapetus, Theia and Rhea, Themis and Mnemosyne and gold-crowned Phoebe and lovely Tethys. After them was born Cronos the wily, youngest and most terrible of her children, and he hated his lusty sire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Theogony, Hesiod, lines 104-138](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0020.tlg001.perseus-eng1:104-138)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_primordial_deities" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2904" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="194" RevisionGUID="b09e96ed-8449-4aa0-bb68-e9a0ce1eb3e6" CreationDate="2015-05-07T14:33:59.723" UserId="65" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|mythical-creatures|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2905" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="242" RevisionGUID="881dd57a-9794-4bd0-8f69-13434c7a6d29" CreationDate="2015-05-07T14:34:24.987" UserId="65" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2906" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="155" RevisionGUID="d29554fb-e47e-4a52-ba96-ab853d4d44e6" CreationDate="2015-05-07T14:34:41.903" UserId="65" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2907" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="558" RevisionGUID="0318ce34-26ac-4746-ba70-ec132d6d8003" CreationDate="2015-05-07T14:40:39.090" UserId="65" Comment="added 656 characters in body" Text="From the [Erebus Wiki][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Greek literature the name Erebus is also used of a region of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greek underworld where the dead pass immediately after dying, and is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sometimes used interchangeably with Tartarus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Theoi.com][2] explains that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; EREBOS (or Erebus) was the Protogenos (primeval god) of darkness, consort of Nyx (Night), whose dark mists enveloped the edges of the world, and filled the deep hollows of the earth.&#xD;&#xA;The name Erebos was also used for the dismal, netherworld realm of Haides.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From [GreekMythology.com][3]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The word Erebus was also used to indicate a region of the Underworld where the dead would go immediately after dying.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However modernized texts and translatins may have skewed the pure mythos behind Erebus, based on my research Erebus is considered both a person and a place.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erebus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Erebos.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.greekmythology.com/Other_Gods/Erebus/erebus.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2909" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="558" RevisionGUID="ca74d415-8335-49fc-84d4-887b2c974eaf" CreationDate="2015-05-07T14:43:57.933" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="From the [Erebus Wiki][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Greek literature the name Erebus is also used of a region of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greek underworld where the dead pass immediately after dying, and is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sometimes used interchangeably with Tartarus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Theoi.com][2] explains that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; EREBOS (or Erebus) was the Protogenos (primeval god) of darkness, consort of Nyx (Night), whose dark mists enveloped the edges of the world, and filled the deep hollows of the earth.&#xD;&#xA;The name Erebos was also used for the dismal, netherworld realm of Haides.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From [GreekMythology.com][3]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The word Erebus was also used to indicate a region of the Underworld where the dead would go immediately after dying.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However modernized texts and translations may have skewed the pure mythos behind Erebus, based on my research Erebus is considered both a person and a place.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erebus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Erebos.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.greekmythology.com/Other_Gods/Erebus/erebus.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2910" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="557" RevisionGUID="64bfcd35-10a4-4d99-90f6-b0e8b7555b56" CreationDate="2015-05-07T14:50:07.810" UserId="57" Comment="yet another quote. " Text="As your Wikipedia quote notes, Erebos is the personification of darkness. He is neither a deity nor a domain; he is both. Which aspect of him we are talking about, depends on context. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a common pattern for [primordials][1]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Chaos is the personification of the void, but also the void itself.&#xD;&#xA;- Ouranos is the personification of the sky, but also the sky itself. &#xD;&#xA;- Gaia is the personification of the earth, but also the earth itself. &#xD;&#xA;- etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lastly, while it's true that some writers may have used Erebos as an alternative name for Tartarus, Hesiod considers them distinct (emphasis mine): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hail, children of Zeus! Grant lovely song and celebrate the holy race of the deathless gods who are for ever, those that were born of Earth and starry Heaven and gloomy Night and them that briny Sea did rear. Tell how at the first gods and earth came to be, and rivers, and the boundless sea with its raging swell, and the gleaming stars, and the wide heaven above, and the gods who were born of them, givers of good things, and how they divided their wealth, and how they shared their honors amongst them, and also how at the first they took many-folded Olympus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These things declare to me from the beginning, you Muses who dwell in the house of Olympus, and tell me which of them first came to be. In truth at first Chaos came to be, but next wide-bosomed Earth, the ever-sure foundation of all1the deathless ones who hold the peaks of snowy Olympus, and *dim Tartarus in the depth of the wide-pathed Earth*, and Eros (Love), fairest among the deathless gods, who unnerves the limbs and overcomes the mind and wise counsels of all gods and all men within them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *From Chaos came forth Erebus and black Night*; but of Night were born Aether and Day, whom she conceived and bore from union in love with Erebus. And Earth first bore starry Heaven, equal to herself, to cover her on every side, and to be an ever-sure abiding-place for the blessed gods. And she brought forth long hills, graceful haunts of the goddess Nymphs who dwell amongst the glens of the hills. She bore also the fruitless deep with his raging swell, Pontus, without sweet union of love. But afterwards she lay with Heaven and bore deep-swirling Oceanus, Coeus and Crius and Hyperion and Iapetus, Theia and Rhea, Themis and Mnemosyne and gold-crowned Phoebe and lovely Tethys. After them was born Cronos the wily, youngest and most terrible of her children, and he hated his lusty sire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Theogony, Hesiod, lines 104-138](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0020.tlg001.perseus-eng1:104-138)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The same is true for Aristophanes: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At the beginning there was only Chaos, Night, dark Erebus, and deep Tartarus. Earth, the air and heaven had no existence. Firstly, blackwinged Night laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebus, and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartarus with dark Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was the first to see the light. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Birds, Aristophanes, lines 690-695](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0019.tlg006.perseus-eng1:685-707)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_primordial_deities" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2911" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="503" RevisionGUID="560ada65-5776-4188-9da0-244fb6b48f56" CreationDate="2015-05-07T15:03:03.970" UserId="183" Comment="Added excerpt from Vita Merlini." Text="There are a few different accounts, detailed [here](http://www.timelessmyths.com/arthurian/women.html#Morgan):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. She was the half sister of none other than King Arthur himself, the daughter of King Gorlois and Igraine (Arthur's mother). She was most likely the aunt of Mordred, though one or two accounts give her as his mother.&#xD;&#xA; 2. She was one of nine sisters living in the land of Avalon (of course), who had magical, mystical powers, some of which may have been learned from Merlin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; In [*Vita Merlini*](http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/merlini.html), by Geoffrey of Monmouth, Avalon and Morgana (Morgen) are described:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;That is the place where nine sisters exercise a kindly rule over those who come to them from our land. The one who is first among them has greater skill in healing, as her beauty surpasses that of her sisters. Her name is Morgen, and she has learned the uses of all plants in curing the ills of the body. She knows, too, the art of changing her shape, of flying through the air, like Daedalus, on strange wings. At will, she is now at Brest, now at Chartres, now at Pavia; and at will she glides down from the sky on to your shores.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt; &quot;They say she had taught astrology to her sisters--Moronoe, Mazoe, Gliten, Glitonea, Gliton, Tyronoe, and Thiten,--Thiten, famous for her lyre.&#xD;&#xA; 3. She was a (perhaps Celtic) goddess, such as Morrigan or Modron (note the similarities in the names), or else a fairy queen. Her magical powers should be self-explanatory from these assumptions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This](http://www.kingarthursknights.com/others/morganlefay.asp) and [this](http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/392293/Morgan-le-Fay) confirm the stories that she was one of the nine queens of Avalon, and that she learned from Merlin." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2912" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="561" RevisionGUID="efaf4eb9-35fe-4260-af75-303747f20503" CreationDate="2015-05-07T15:09:45.800" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2913" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="562" RevisionGUID="f8241488-849d-4157-bce5-24d461b5a984" CreationDate="2015-05-07T15:09:45.800" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2914" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="563" RevisionGUID="5e2a6c6e-2a6b-4ea8-b532-4968c13b6e3a" CreationDate="2015-05-07T15:10:54.987" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2915" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="564" RevisionGUID="7dc3fb58-51d4-4b6c-a3c1-a3a10563bef8" CreationDate="2015-05-07T15:10:54.987" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2916" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="557" RevisionGUID="88071e5f-a366-4955-8432-064c7f199dd1" CreationDate="2015-05-07T15:14:53.790" UserId="57" Comment="added 43 characters in body" Text="As your Wikipedia quote notes, Erebos is the personification of darkness. He is neither a deity nor a domain; he is both. Which aspect of him we are talking about, depends on context. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a common pattern for [primordials][1]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Chaos is the personification of the void, but also the void itself.&#xD;&#xA;- Ouranos is the personification of the sky, but also the sky itself. &#xD;&#xA;- Gaia is the personification of the earth, but also the earth itself. &#xD;&#xA;- etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lastly, while it's true that some writers may have used Erebos as an alternative name for Tartarus, Hesiod considers them distinct (emphasis mine): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hail, children of Zeus! Grant lovely song and celebrate the holy race of the deathless gods who are for ever, those that were born of Earth and starry Heaven and gloomy Night and them that briny Sea did rear. Tell how at the first gods and earth came to be, and rivers, and the boundless sea with its raging swell, and the gleaming stars, and the wide heaven above, and the gods who were born of them, givers of good things, and how they divided their wealth, and how they shared their honors amongst them, and also how at the first they took many-folded Olympus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These things declare to me from the beginning, you Muses who dwell in the house of Olympus, and tell me which of them first came to be. In truth at first Chaos came to be, but next wide-bosomed Earth, the ever-sure foundation of all1the deathless ones who hold the peaks of snowy Olympus, and *dim Tartarus in the depth of the wide-pathed Earth*, and Eros (Love), fairest among the deathless gods, who unnerves the limbs and overcomes the mind and wise counsels of all gods and all men within them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *From Chaos came forth Erebus and black Night*; but of Night were born Aether and Day, whom she conceived and bore from union in love with Erebus. And Earth first bore starry Heaven, equal to herself, to cover her on every side, and to be an ever-sure abiding-place for the blessed gods. And she brought forth long hills, graceful haunts of the goddess Nymphs who dwell amongst the glens of the hills. She bore also the fruitless deep with his raging swell, Pontus, without sweet union of love. But afterwards she lay with Heaven and bore deep-swirling Oceanus, Coeus and Crius and Hyperion and Iapetus, Theia and Rhea, Themis and Mnemosyne and gold-crowned Phoebe and lovely Tethys. After them was born Cronos the wily, youngest and most terrible of her children, and he hated his lusty sire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Theogony, Hesiod, lines 104-138](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0020.tlg001.perseus-eng1:104-138)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The same is true for Aristophanes, no less than two centuries after Hesiod: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At the beginning there was only Chaos, Night, dark Erebus, and deep Tartarus. Earth, the air and heaven had no existence. Firstly, blackwinged Night laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebus, and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartarus with dark Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was the first to see the light. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Birds, Aristophanes, lines 690-695](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0019.tlg006.perseus-eng1:685-707)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_primordial_deities" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2917" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="565" RevisionGUID="bad9595c-2a78-4517-bb0e-0c45adf7991b" CreationDate="2015-05-07T15:15:22.413" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2918" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="566" RevisionGUID="b155bb6c-cb81-416d-af01-5a3c7e23dd1a" CreationDate="2015-05-07T15:15:22.413" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2919" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="564" RevisionGUID="303fdd2b-afa5-4a56-923d-ba1766545af0" CreationDate="2015-05-07T15:28:07.443" UserId="183" Comment="added 137 characters in body" Text="For questions about objects in myths that stand for something else in either the myth or the real world, sometimes for teaching a lesson." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2920" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="564" RevisionGUID="303fdd2b-afa5-4a56-923d-ba1766545af0" CreationDate="2015-05-07T15:28:07.443" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 11, 108 edit id of 156" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2921" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="566" RevisionGUID="88875c84-ba6f-478c-aada-baafdeab46dc" CreationDate="2015-05-07T15:28:10.507" UserId="183" Comment="added 106 characters in body" Text="For questions about the deity in Norse mythology, also known as Woden, who was the king of the Aesir gods." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2922" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="566" RevisionGUID="88875c84-ba6f-478c-aada-baafdeab46dc" CreationDate="2015-05-07T15:28:10.507" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 11, 108 edit id of 157" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2926" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="546" RevisionGUID="2003fce6-0fb2-4015-b14e-497ffccf94fe" CreationDate="2015-05-07T18:41:58.923" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 49 characters in body" Text="That is called an [epic catalogue][1] ([TVTropes link!][2]), and is used in several old stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Part of the point of this specific epic catalogue is that Culhwch is invoking each member of Arthur's court by name (&quot;this boon I likewise seek at the hands of thy warriors. I seek it from [list of names]&quot;). Because Culhwch needs not just Arthur’s help but also the help of his court, it makes sense that he asks each night individually -- it shows that member's of Arthur’s court are respected as individuals. In addition, the catalogue shows the size of Arthur's court.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In general, catalogue’s are used for similar reasons:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; By virtue of these three basic qualities, catalogues can be used to at least four different ends: (1) to describe characters of the plot, (2) to intensify the presentation of the events, (3) to foreshadow future events and create suspense, (4) and to provoke or increase the reader's emotional involvement in the narrative. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Gaertner, Jan, The Homeric Catalogues and Their Function in Epic Narrative][3])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, this specific catalogue is also interesting for a completely different reason: **it is a parody of epic catalogues and other narrative techniques!** If you read the passage carefully, you will see some funny names:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hirerwm and Hiratrwm. (The day they went on a visit three Cantrevs provided for their entertainment, and they feasted until noon and drank until night, when they went to sleep. And then they devoured the heads of the vermin through hunger, as if they had never eaten anything. When they made a visit they left neither the fat nor the lean, neither the hot nor the cold, the sour nor the sweet, the fresh nor the salt, the boiled nor the raw.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Gwevyl the son of Gwestad (on the day that he was sad, he would let one of his lips drop below his waist, while he turned upon the other like a cap upon his head). Uchtryd Varyf Draws (who spread his red untrimmed beard over the eight-and-forty rafters which were in Arthur's Hall).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there could be more than satire going on in this story. While the story Culhwch and Olwen has humorous overtones, that shouldn't detract from the &quot;sacredness&quot; of it. In fact, in many European stories, humor and seriousness exist at the same time. From [Mabinogion.info][4]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is crucial to realise the extent to which this differs from modern&#xD;&#xA;&gt; narrative-cultural norms, where the comedic and the dramatic are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mutually exclusive. Modern audiences have become accustomed to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; specialised use of parodic humour as a device to undermine, deflate or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dismiss ‘serious’ genres; making it hard for us to understand how the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; comedic and the dramatic can co-exist within the same artistic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; expression. But such incompatability of genres has by no means always&#xD;&#xA;&gt; been the case. Just as the monstrous gargoyle can inhabit the same&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cathedral wall as the saintly icon; or the irreverent doodle can adorn&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the exegetical manuscript – it cannot always be said that the presence&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of humour or whimsy within the medieval narrative was intended to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; undermine its psycho-dramatic potency. Indeed, more often than not,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; such flourishes signalled a generalised intensification of affect: a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cultural experience in which all emotional registers (wonder,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hilarity, excitement, fear etc.) were simultaneously subject to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; heightened stimulation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Basically, the fact that the story contains absurd jokes doesn't mean the story isn't serious.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_catalogue&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EpicCatalog&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/4477439 &#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://mabinogion.info/culhwch.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2928" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="567" RevisionGUID="8d4df155-7c91-49a8-af8a-c112a104159b" CreationDate="2015-05-07T19:16:43.570" UserId="11" Text="#It's not likely.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I shall approach the question from two sides:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##Was it likely that Mayans knew about elephants?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are no modern elephants that were ever native to the Americas, including Mexico. However, there were Woolly mammoths, which have the same long snouts. The *very last* known living [Woolly Mammoths were alive 6500 years ago](https://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2005AM/finalprogram/abstract_97313.htm); the very earliest [Mayans were alive closer to 4000 years ago, in the Early Preclassic period](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_civilization#History). So, while it's technically possible that the Mayans either knew about the Elephant snouts from when their [ancestors travelled over the Beringa Land Bridge 20000 years ago](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beringia) or from Woolly Mammoth snout **fossils**, it seems unlikely.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##Well, if not elephants or mammoths, why a snout?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first thing to note is that **Chaac did not always appear with a snout.** In [Mythology: Myths, Legends and Fantasies, page 481](https://books.google.com/books?id=p7dR2w1Wv2sC&amp;pg=PA481&amp;lpg=PA481&amp;dq=maya+chaac+snout&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=NSwtTsVuA4&amp;sig=dyIY7i6V-xwIhqRYvHb-1PXWlYA&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=9LVLVdKkOMa3oQSjxIG4Ag&amp;ved=0CFkQ6AEwCw#v=onepage&amp;q=maya%20chaac%20snout&amp;f=false) it says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Chaac appears in many faces and guises. Some images show him with a curled, snoutlike nose, and sometimes he is seen with scales or catfish whiskers, or with tears flowing from his eyes. Often he is seen painted blue and weilding an axe, which he uses to create lightning and thunder.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So why did he have a snout? The same source says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Codz Poop building at Kabah in the Yucatan region of Mexico features 250 masks of Chaac. One of the many beliefs about Chaac is that he uses his **hooked nose to penetrate the clouds, causing rain to fall.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is an alternate reasoning for him to have the hooked nose - to part the clouds, not because he's elephant-like.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you can see, Chaac's long nose doesn't always really remind of Elephants:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Chaac urn][1]&#xD;&#xA;![Chaac drawing][2]&#xD;&#xA;![Chaac statue][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/SXj8r.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/U5Xsy.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/dzi96.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2929" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="68" RevisionGUID="4f492ef1-8661-4ce4-b3a4-172b53088586" CreationDate="2015-05-07T19:49:13.253" UserDisplayName="user93" Comment="trying to stick to a tagging guideline: http://meta.mythology.stackexchange.com/a/118/93" Text="|sea-creatures|greco-roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2930" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="68" RevisionGUID="4f492ef1-8661-4ce4-b3a4-172b53088586" CreationDate="2015-05-07T19:49:13.253" Comment="Proposed by 93 approved by 28, 171 edit id of 158" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2931" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="16" RevisionGUID="3bf3a32a-5c66-4571-a86f-a0597d97c063" CreationDate="2015-05-07T20:22:17.333" UserId="11" Comment="Changed cross mythology tag to comparative" Text="|greek|comparative|buddhist|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2933" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="557" RevisionGUID="076d1c8b-96cd-4be6-97ec-4ecac7957d40" CreationDate="2015-05-07T20:39:31.053" UserId="11" Comment="Why Tartarus?" Text="As your Wikipedia quote notes, Erebos is the personification of darkness. He is neither a deity nor a domain; he is both. Which aspect of him we are talking about, depends on context. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a common pattern for [primordials][1]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Chaos is the personification of the void, but also the void itself.&#xD;&#xA;- Ouranos is the personification of the sky, but also the sky itself. &#xD;&#xA;- Gaia is the personification of the earth, but also the earth itself. &#xD;&#xA;- etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lastly, the Erinyes/Eumenides are also described as living in **Tartarus**, not Erebus. From the [Oresteia of Aeschylus](https://archive.org/stream/oresteiaofaeschy00aescuoft/oresteiaofaeschy00aescuoft_djvu.txt):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These hoary ancient maidens, with whom never &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hath any god mingled, nor man, nor beast. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Evil was cause of their creation, evil &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The murky pit of **Tartarus** where they dwell &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Abhorred by men and by the Olympian gods. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, while it's true that some writers may have used Erebos as an alternative name for Tartarus, Hesiod considers them distinct (emphasis mine): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hail, children of Zeus! Grant lovely song and celebrate the holy race of the deathless gods who are for ever, those that were born of Earth and starry Heaven and gloomy Night and them that briny Sea did rear. Tell how at the first gods and earth came to be, and rivers, and the boundless sea with its raging swell, and the gleaming stars, and the wide heaven above, and the gods who were born of them, givers of good things, and how they divided their wealth, and how they shared their honors amongst them, and also how at the first they took many-folded Olympus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These things declare to me from the beginning, you Muses who dwell in the house of Olympus, and tell me which of them first came to be. In truth at first Chaos came to be, but next wide-bosomed Earth, the ever-sure foundation of all1the deathless ones who hold the peaks of snowy Olympus, and *dim Tartarus in the depth of the wide-pathed Earth*, and Eros (Love), fairest among the deathless gods, who unnerves the limbs and overcomes the mind and wise counsels of all gods and all men within them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *From Chaos came forth Erebus and black Night*; but of Night were born Aether and Day, whom she conceived and bore from union in love with Erebus. And Earth first bore starry Heaven, equal to herself, to cover her on every side, and to be an ever-sure abiding-place for the blessed gods. And she brought forth long hills, graceful haunts of the goddess Nymphs who dwell amongst the glens of the hills. She bore also the fruitless deep with his raging swell, Pontus, without sweet union of love. But afterwards she lay with Heaven and bore deep-swirling Oceanus, Coeus and Crius and Hyperion and Iapetus, Theia and Rhea, Themis and Mnemosyne and gold-crowned Phoebe and lovely Tethys. After them was born Cronos the wily, youngest and most terrible of her children, and he hated his lusty sire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Theogony, Hesiod, lines 104-138](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0020.tlg001.perseus-eng1:104-138)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The same is true for Aristophanes, no less than two centuries after Hesiod: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At the beginning there was only Chaos, Night, dark Erebus, and deep Tartarus. Earth, the air and heaven had no existence. Firstly, blackwinged Night laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebus, and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartarus with dark Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was the first to see the light. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Birds, Aristophanes, lines 690-695](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0019.tlg006.perseus-eng1:685-707)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_primordial_deities" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2935" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="557" RevisionGUID="c763b9a2-02c9-4074-9810-0df9af43ea0e" CreationDate="2015-05-07T20:55:19.547" UserId="57" Comment="added 202 characters in body" Text="As your Wikipedia quote notes, Erebos is the personification of darkness. He is neither a deity nor a domain; he is both. Which aspect of him we are talking about, depends on context. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a common pattern for [primordials][1]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Chaos is the personification of the void, but also the void itself.&#xD;&#xA;- Ouranos is the personification of the sky, but also the sky itself. &#xD;&#xA;- Gaia is the personification of the earth, but also the earth itself. &#xD;&#xA;- etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, it should be noted that some writers used Erebos as an alternative name for [Tartaros][2], and vice versa. One such instance can be found in [The Eumenides][3], the final play of Aeschylus' Oresteia:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These hoary ancient maidens, with whom never  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hath any god mingled, nor man, nor beast.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Evil was cause of their creation, evil  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The murky pit of Tartarus where they dwell  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Abhorred by men and by the Olympian gods.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Oresteia, Aeschylus, translated by R.C. Trevelyan](https://archive.org/stream/oresteiaofaeschy00aescuoft/oresteiaofaeschy00aescuoft_djvu.txt)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod - on the other hand - considers Erebos and Tartaros distinct (emphasis mine): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hail, children of Zeus! Grant lovely song and celebrate the holy race of the deathless gods who are for ever, those that were born of Earth and starry Heaven and gloomy Night and them that briny Sea did rear. Tell how at the first gods and earth came to be, and rivers, and the boundless sea with its raging swell, and the gleaming stars, and the wide heaven above, and the gods who were born of them, givers of good things, and how they divided their wealth, and how they shared their honors amongst them, and also how at the first they took many-folded Olympus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These things declare to me from the beginning, you Muses who dwell in the house of Olympus, and tell me which of them first came to be. In truth at first Chaos came to be, but next wide-bosomed Earth, the ever-sure foundation of all1the deathless ones who hold the peaks of snowy Olympus, and *dim Tartarus in the depth of the wide-pathed Earth*, and Eros (Love), fairest among the deathless gods, who unnerves the limbs and overcomes the mind and wise counsels of all gods and all men within them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *From Chaos came forth Erebus and black Night*; but of Night were born Aether and Day, whom she conceived and bore from union in love with Erebus. And Earth first bore starry Heaven, equal to herself, to cover her on every side, and to be an ever-sure abiding-place for the blessed gods. And she brought forth long hills, graceful haunts of the goddess Nymphs who dwell amongst the glens of the hills. She bore also the fruitless deep with his raging swell, Pontus, without sweet union of love. But afterwards she lay with Heaven and bore deep-swirling Oceanus, Coeus and Crius and Hyperion and Iapetus, Theia and Rhea, Themis and Mnemosyne and gold-crowned Phoebe and lovely Tethys. After them was born Cronos the wily, youngest and most terrible of her children, and he hated his lusty sire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Theogony, Hesiod, lines 104-138](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0020.tlg001.perseus-eng1:104-138)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The same is true for Aristophanes, no less than two centuries after Hesiod: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At the beginning there was only Chaos, Night, dark Erebus, and deep Tartarus. Earth, the air and heaven had no existence. Firstly, blackwinged Night laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebus, and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartarus with dark Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was the first to see the light. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Birds, Aristophanes, lines 690-695](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0019.tlg006.perseus-eng1:685-707)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_primordial_deities&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartarus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oresteia#The_Eumenides" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2938" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="68" RevisionGUID="13e604c5-b781-4a14-aef5-0bfcdbe487f9" CreationDate="2015-05-07T21:14:54.570" UserId="65" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|greco-roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2939" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="152" RevisionGUID="ea35c547-73ba-4ef2-b096-18e8d43f9f33" CreationDate="2015-05-07T21:16:27.297" UserId="183" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="I beleive it may be the Tritons, but there are probably other part-fish, part-humans. Plus, there was a fish-headed god in antiquity (not greco-romain).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A side note is that were was some mistranslations and some of the &quot;sirens&quot; in Greek tales were half-birds and not half-fish (harpies and not mermaids).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://www.crystalinks.com/sirens.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;In Greek mythology, the Sirens were three dangerous bird-women, portrayed as seductresses who lured nearby sailors with their enchanting music and voices to shipwreck on the rocky coast of their island. Roman poets placed them on an island called Sirenum scopuli. In some later, rationalized traditions, the literal geography of the &quot;flowery&quot; island of Anthemoessa, or Anthemusa, is fixed: sometimes on Cape Pelorum and at others in the islands known as the Sirenuse, near Paestum, or in Capreae. All such locations were surrounded by cliffs and rocks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;When the Sirens were given a parentage they were considered the daughters of the river god Achelous, fathered upon Terpsichore, Melpomene, Sterope, or Chthon (the Earth; in Euripides' Helen 167, Helen in her anguish calls upon &quot;Winged maidens, daughters of the Earth&quot;). Although they lured mariners, for the Greeks the Sirens in their &quot;meadow starred with flowers&quot; were not sea deities. Roman writers linked the Sirens more closely to the sea, as daughters of Phorcys.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Their number is variously reported as between two and five. In the Odyssey, Homer says nothing of their origin or names, but gives the number of the Sirens as two. Later writers mention both their names and number: some state that there were three, Peisinoe, Aglaope, and Thelxiepeia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Sirens of Greek mythology are sometimes portrayed in later folklore as fully aquatic and mermaid-like; the facts that in Spanish, French, Italian, Polish, Romanian and Portuguese the word for mermaid is respectively Sirena, Sirene, Sirena, Syrena, Sirena and Sereia, and that in biology the Sirenia comprise an order of fully aquatic mammals that includes the dugong and manatee, add to the visual confusion, so that Sirens are even represented as mermaids. However, &quot;the sirens, though they sing to mariners, are not sea-maidens,&quot; Harrison had cautioned; &quot;they dwell on an island in a flowery meadow.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2941" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="568" RevisionGUID="489cf7ae-ba29-494b-b586-68ad04027d5d" CreationDate="2015-05-07T21:26:41.493" UserId="110" Text="I am aware that Hermes Trismegistus is a combination of the greek god Hermes and the Egyptian god Thoth. But he is credited as the writer of a few books with `Asclepius` and the `Corpus Hermeticum`. So in the end was he a historical figure that was promoted to divinity? Or are the books written by other &quot;ghostwriters&quot; and simply credited to him?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2942" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="568" RevisionGUID="489cf7ae-ba29-494b-b586-68ad04027d5d" CreationDate="2015-05-07T21:26:41.493" UserId="110" Text="Was Hermes Trismegistus a historical figure?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2943" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="568" RevisionGUID="489cf7ae-ba29-494b-b586-68ad04027d5d" CreationDate="2015-05-07T21:26:41.493" UserId="110" Text="|greek|egyptian|ancient-greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2944" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="569" RevisionGUID="47add299-15b3-4309-a8da-8aea0890000b" CreationDate="2015-05-07T21:41:22.347" UserId="108" Text="He was not a historical person. Those writings were simply credited to [Hermes Trismegistus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes_Trismegistus) because they were held to be **divinely inspired** by him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [The author] gave shape and form to th etext, but its substance was of transcendent origin. Those who held hermes Trismegistus to be the author of a text believed that Hermetic tradition embodied a knokwledge inspired by Hermes Trismegistus Himself. There is little reason to doube that the authors of Hermetic writings were convinced that they were passing down an age-old, devinely inspired knowledge.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Ebeling, Florian. *The Secret History of Hermes Trismegistus: Hermeticism from Ancient to Modern times.* Cornell University Press, 2007.**&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2945" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="569" RevisionGUID="b9dafb6d-d159-4175-a5d3-6f86e89ef9ae" CreationDate="2015-05-07T21:46:39.230" UserId="18" Comment="Just typos." Text="He was not a historical person. Those writings were simply credited to [Hermes Trismegistus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes_Trismegistus) because they were held to be **divinely inspired** by him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [The author] gave shape and form to the text, but its substance was of transcendent origin. Those who held Hermes Trismegistus to be the author of a text believed that Hermetic tradition embodied a knowledge inspired by Hermes Trismegistus Himself. There is little reason to doubt that the authors of Hermetic writings were convinced that they were passing down an age-old, divinely inspired knowledge.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Ebeling, Florian. *The Secret History of Hermes Trismegistus: Hermeticism from Ancient to Modern times.* Cornell University Press, 2007.**&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2946" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="569" RevisionGUID="b9dafb6d-d159-4175-a5d3-6f86e89ef9ae" CreationDate="2015-05-07T21:46:39.230" Comment="Proposed by 18 approved by 108 edit id of 159" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2947" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="568" RevisionGUID="51ac515e-acae-4973-92e4-01c5ae90f2c6" CreationDate="2015-05-07T21:47:42.680" UserId="57" Comment="please don't use code blocks for emphasis. code blocks are only meant for code." Text="I am aware that Hermes Trismegistus is a combination of the greek god Hermes and the Egyptian god Thoth. But he is credited as the writer of a few books with Asclepius and the Corpus Hermeticum. So in the end was he a historical figure that was promoted to divinity? Or are the books written by other &quot;ghostwriters&quot; and simply credited to him?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2948" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="569" RevisionGUID="e135b0ff-f245-42e4-89c4-9b14cd4c0b74" CreationDate="2015-05-07T21:56:05.467" UserId="108" Comment="added 260 characters in body" Text="He was not a historical person. Those writings were simply credited to [Hermes Trismegistus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes_Trismegistus) because they were held to be **divinely inspired** by him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [The author] gave shape and form to the text, but its substance was of transcendent origin. Those who held Hermes Trismegistus to be the author of a text believed that Hermetic tradition embodied a knowledge inspired by Hermes Trismegistus Himself. There is little reason to doubt that the authors of Hermetic writings were convinced that they were passing down an age-old, divinely inspired knowledge.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Ebeling, Florian. *The Secret History of Hermes Trismegistus: Hermeticism from Ancient to Modern times.* Cornell University Press, 2007.**&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [*Hermetica*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermetica) basically takes the form of dialogues involving Hermes Trismgistus. Since the authors believe they were merely recording his words, it would've made easy sense to attribute the works to him as well." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2949" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="68" RevisionGUID="cb34fa49-a0a0-4acf-8457-ca34fd513173" CreationDate="2015-05-07T22:17:05.403" UserId="11" Comment="Having [greco-roman] is redundant." Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2950" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="364" RevisionGUID="0d259758-b267-442d-9ddf-df5784c15a26" CreationDate="2015-05-07T22:17:21.447" UserId="11" Comment="Having [greco-roman] is redundant." Text="|greek|roman|underworld|funerals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2951" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="364" RevisionGUID="bcb7ba57-29f1-4278-93e2-3eed4fbd70fe" CreationDate="2015-05-07T22:19:55.650" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|underworld|funerals|afterlife|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2952" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="570" RevisionGUID="c77f2416-93f9-482f-9995-fdc0d7854bba" CreationDate="2015-05-07T22:25:16.547" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2953" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="571" RevisionGUID="05db3ecb-9189-4f16-959f-083eca4138f1" CreationDate="2015-05-07T22:25:16.547" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2954" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="572" RevisionGUID="a02a5785-da00-4de1-a674-91005f6d6e6d" CreationDate="2015-05-07T22:26:56.677" UserId="42" Text="In the Táin Bó Cúailnge, the men of Ulster are disabled by a curse placed upon them by Macha to feel her labor pains in their hour of greatest need, thus disabling them when the army of Connacht attacks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cúchulainn is immune to this curse.  As I understand it, he is immune because he is yet a beardless youth, and so a curse upon the men does not apply to him.  This makes sense, since, when an exhausted Cúchulainn sleeps three days, the boys of Ulster come to the defense.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've also read that the explanation of his immunity is due to his demi-godhood, being that he is the son of Lugh, the Long Arm.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In either case, Súaltam, Cúchulainn's human father, is neither a youth, nor is he descended from the Tuatha Dé Danann.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similar for Cúchulainn's charioteer, Loeg mac Riangabra.  I can't find where it's stated he's older that Cúchulainn, but if I'm mistaken on that point, I [must not](http://old.john844.org/sites/default/files/images/scan0105.preview.jpg) [be alone](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Cuinbattle.jpg)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2955" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="572" RevisionGUID="a02a5785-da00-4de1-a674-91005f6d6e6d" CreationDate="2015-05-07T22:26:56.677" UserId="42" Text="Why aren't Súaltam and Loeg disabled by Macha's curse?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2956" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="572" RevisionGUID="a02a5785-da00-4de1-a674-91005f6d6e6d" CreationDate="2015-05-07T22:26:56.677" UserId="42" Text="|irish|ulster-cycle|tain-bo-cuailnge|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2957" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="573" RevisionGUID="22ad4b26-3ce2-4fe7-a1fa-8d66af6bd9fc" CreationDate="2015-05-07T22:27:46.943" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2958" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="574" RevisionGUID="6602eeaa-652e-4a4b-adb3-15b62694d1c5" CreationDate="2015-05-07T22:27:46.943" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2959" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="575" RevisionGUID="c0cf3838-0d1e-4303-928c-d6ff4406017b" CreationDate="2015-05-07T22:30:06.730" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2960" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="576" RevisionGUID="2d5b7148-e146-44be-9a0c-c3431a3d7edc" CreationDate="2015-05-07T22:30:06.730" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2961" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="577" RevisionGUID="2e2232c9-0882-4282-8ee9-89d3bbb67114" CreationDate="2015-05-07T22:36:56.057" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2962" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="578" RevisionGUID="dd8b367e-6dda-4a32-b001-110059439071" CreationDate="2015-05-07T22:36:56.057" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2963" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="579" RevisionGUID="0f45e755-aa34-4d85-8eb8-49693bcdcb86" CreationDate="2015-05-07T22:38:45.713" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2964" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="580" RevisionGUID="78f3e26f-3831-49bb-b258-a9824162646c" CreationDate="2015-05-07T22:38:45.713" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2965" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="581" RevisionGUID="999d907c-6454-44ca-a7a2-08cdd1ca4756" CreationDate="2015-05-07T22:39:59.073" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2966" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="582" RevisionGUID="d69582e3-5b33-4671-81ab-6fcc0290e4f8" CreationDate="2015-05-07T22:39:59.073" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2967" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="576" RevisionGUID="23da43c5-3093-45e6-ae39-e1eab678d9f3" CreationDate="2015-05-07T22:41:51.330" UserId="108" Comment="added 66 characters in body" Text="For questions on Athena, the goddess of wisdom in Greek mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2968" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="576" RevisionGUID="23da43c5-3093-45e6-ae39-e1eab678d9f3" CreationDate="2015-05-07T22:41:51.330" Comment="Proposed by 108 approved by 183, 29 edit id of 162" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2969" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="574" RevisionGUID="1936df0c-9eae-4007-aef1-1d33bf4c74b5" CreationDate="2015-05-07T22:42:31.937" UserId="108" Comment="added 136 characters in body" Text="For questions on or related to Buddhism, a collection of traditions originating from India and based on the teachings of Gautama Buddha." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2970" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="574" RevisionGUID="1936df0c-9eae-4007-aef1-1d33bf4c74b5" CreationDate="2015-05-07T22:42:31.937" Comment="Proposed by 108 approved by 183, 29 edit id of 161" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2971" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="571" RevisionGUID="09a1cd72-9f46-42cc-b253-35dbee90d82c" CreationDate="2015-05-07T22:42:41.280" UserId="108" Comment="added 167 characters in body" Text="For questions on the goddesses of vengeance in Greek mythology, also known as *furies*, believed to pursue those guilty of some transgressions with endless tormenting." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2972" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="571" RevisionGUID="09a1cd72-9f46-42cc-b253-35dbee90d82c" CreationDate="2015-05-07T22:42:41.280" Comment="Proposed by 108 approved by 183, 29 edit id of 160" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2973" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="568" RevisionGUID="33401cd3-bd83-4f97-a92f-c9e18bf6b879" CreationDate="2015-05-07T22:44:07.720" UserId="29" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2974" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="583" RevisionGUID="04a71f71-a4e7-486f-9a8f-88710f0255c8" CreationDate="2015-05-07T22:44:24.310" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2975" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="584" RevisionGUID="5ff8f27c-d8f5-4b0d-9465-2045a79de90c" CreationDate="2015-05-07T22:44:24.310" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2976" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="578" RevisionGUID="07808167-3779-45b0-a0c3-97874e7ef204" CreationDate="2015-05-07T23:14:06.300" UserId="183" Comment="added 92 characters in body" Text="For questions about the stories of the religion based around the writings of L. Ron Hubbard." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2977" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="578" RevisionGUID="07808167-3779-45b0-a0c3-97874e7ef204" CreationDate="2015-05-07T23:14:06.300" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 29, 108 edit id of 163" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2978" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="582" RevisionGUID="b7dec7e0-7877-4fc7-bc83-ff5e5783a474" CreationDate="2015-05-07T23:14:11.200" UserId="183" Comment="added 160 characters in body" Text="For questions about mythological creatures that possess reptilian traits but may, in some tales, have supernatural abilities, such as flying and breathing fire." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2979" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="582" RevisionGUID="b7dec7e0-7877-4fc7-bc83-ff5e5783a474" CreationDate="2015-05-07T23:14:11.200" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 29, 108 edit id of 165" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2980" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="584" RevisionGUID="676009e2-ca4d-4faf-affe-770e917cc5d8" CreationDate="2015-05-07T23:17:40.037" UserId="108" Comment="added 144 characters in body" Text="For questions on a group of primordial deities in Sumerian mythology, named after the sky god Anu and eventually associated with the underworld." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2981" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="584" RevisionGUID="676009e2-ca4d-4faf-affe-770e917cc5d8" CreationDate="2015-05-07T23:17:40.037" Comment="Proposed by 108 approved by 29, 183 edit id of 166" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2982" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="585" RevisionGUID="9eefeeb9-8c62-4def-942c-5b778500b0be" CreationDate="2015-05-07T23:32:13.460" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2983" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="586" RevisionGUID="8135a45c-5eb6-4b52-bbc7-313af5363421" CreationDate="2015-05-07T23:32:13.460" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2984" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="587" RevisionGUID="2edb60cf-23c5-4459-a902-f64be578f5fd" CreationDate="2015-05-07T23:46:47.823" UserId="108" Text="[Láeg](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A1eg) may have been a descendant of the [Tuatha Dé Danann](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuatha_D%C3%A9_Danann). His father Riangabar may have been one of the [fairy folk, *sidhe*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aos_S%C3%AD), a later version of the Tuatha Dé Danann. This would explain why he would be exempted from Macha's curse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cu Chulainn, the hero of the chief epic Tain Bo Cuailnge (&quot;The Cattle-Raid of Cooley&quot;), whose father is alternately made out to be Lug or the mortal Sualtam; and Loeg, Cu chulainn's charioteer, is the son of **the elf-chieftain Riangabar**, as are the charioteers of some other Ulster heroes.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Fulk, Robert D. “History in Medieval Scandinavian Heroic Literature and the Northwest European Context.” In *Epic and History*, ed. David Konstan and Kurt A. Raaflaub, 328–46. Chichester: Wiley-Blackwell, 2010.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2985" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="580" RevisionGUID="d02874d1-83c2-4ed4-bd7c-c40ff1482c56" CreationDate="2015-05-08T00:49:02.803" UserId="183" Comment="added 110 characters in body" Text="For questions about the Táin Bó Cúailnge, an epic story making up part of the Ulster Cycle of Irish mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2986" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="580" RevisionGUID="d02874d1-83c2-4ed4-bd7c-c40ff1482c56" CreationDate="2015-05-08T00:49:02.803" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 108, 65 edit id of 164" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2987" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="588" RevisionGUID="c1353517-a9cf-4651-b59f-321f9c7d5976" CreationDate="2015-05-08T00:57:24.823" UserId="183" Text="In [the second branch of the Mabinogion](http://www.mabinogi.net/branwen.htm), the forces of the Isle of the Mighty (Britain) defeat the Irish, though only seven survive. The dying Welsh king, Bendigeidfran, orders his men to cut off his head, bring it back to London (after a stop along the way) and bury it, facing France, where it will protect the island.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'Take the head' said he 'and bring it to the White Hill in London, and bury it with its face towards France. And you will be on the road a long time. In Harlech you will be seven years in feasting, the birds of Rhiannon singing to you. The head will be as good company to you as it was at its best when it was ever on me. And you will be at Gwales in Penfro for eighty years. Until you open the door facing Aber Henvelen on the side facing Cornwall, you will be able to abide there, along with the head with you uncorrupted. But when you open that door, you will not be able to remain there. You will make for London and bury the head. Cross over to the other side.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why would the head face towards France, and not Ireland, given that Britain and Ireland had just fought an extremely violent (albeit shortlived) battle? Would the Irish, though extremely weakened, if not virtually destroyed (and therefore not a threat), still be disliked far more than the French?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2988" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="588" RevisionGUID="c1353517-a9cf-4651-b59f-321f9c7d5976" CreationDate="2015-05-08T00:57:24.823" UserId="183" Text="Why was Bendigeidfran's head buried facing France and not Ireland?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2989" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="588" RevisionGUID="c1353517-a9cf-4651-b59f-321f9c7d5976" CreationDate="2015-05-08T00:57:24.823" UserId="183" Text="|welsh|mabinogion|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2990" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="586" RevisionGUID="420e0dfa-fad3-44ab-baab-e4a1473c9f78" CreationDate="2015-05-08T01:38:20.620" UserId="183" Comment="added 83 characters in body" Text="For questions about the hall of Odin in Norse mythology, where many of the dead go." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2991" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="586" RevisionGUID="420e0dfa-fad3-44ab-baab-e4a1473c9f78" CreationDate="2015-05-08T01:38:20.620" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 65, 38 edit id of 167" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2992" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="589" RevisionGUID="31c291e5-9f7f-47d3-85a2-4ac9ef68e374" CreationDate="2015-05-08T01:46:09.313" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2993" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="590" RevisionGUID="3ef98675-88cd-4cdb-b767-a68880a30e89" CreationDate="2015-05-08T01:46:09.313" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2994" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="439" RevisionGUID="0c8b788d-861d-407b-a40d-99b8cc1a7adc" CreationDate="2015-05-08T02:01:07.850" UserId="183" Comment="added 101 characters in body" Text="For questions about the ten-year travels of Odysseus, a Greek hero, after fighting in the Trojan War." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2995" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="439" RevisionGUID="0c8b788d-861d-407b-a40d-99b8cc1a7adc" CreationDate="2015-05-08T02:01:07.850" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 65, 79 edit id of 168" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2996" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="591" RevisionGUID="4434cbc5-2b50-4e16-9fb1-f625fbbc7fbb" CreationDate="2015-05-08T02:20:05.617" UserId="11" Text="##The Father is the deity Tien... but not really.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Firstly, as @Semaphore says in the comments, &quot;Heaven&quot; (天, tian) refers to the supreme sky deity. Sinologist [Herrlee Glessner Creel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herrlee_Creel) says in [The Origins of Statecraft in China:](http://books.google.com/books/about/The_Origins_of_Statecraft_in_China.html?id=F5d1mQEACAAJ)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For three thousand years it has been believed that from time immemorial all Chinese revered T'ien 天, &quot;Heaven,&quot; as the highest deity, and that this same deity was also known as Ti 帝 or Shang Ti 上帝. But the new materials that have become available in the present century, and especially the Shang inscriptions, make it evident that this was not the case. It appears rather that T'ien is not named at all in the Shang inscriptions, which instead refer with great frequency to Ti or Shang Ti. T'ien appears only with the Chou, and was apparently a Chou deity. After the conquest the Chou considered T'ien to be identical with the Shang deity Ti (or Shang Ti), much as the Romans identified the Greek Zeus with their Jupiter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, in China this phrase **&quot;Son of Heaven&quot; should not be taken literally.** In [Heritage of China: Contemporary Perspectives on Chinese Civilization](http://books.google.com/books/about/Heritage_of_China.html?id=zm6Sm64y5CwC), it states:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The ruler soon bore a new title that was based on the legitimating concept of the Mandate of Heaven: the Son of Heaven. The term **was not taken in the literal sense to mean that the Chou king was descended from Heaven** and therefore divine, but it did convey the idea that the King had been chosen by Heaven. Just as lineage heads were patrimonially responsible to the Chou king, so too was he responsible, as a son, to Heaven, who could withdraw the mandate and confer it on a more deserving, that is, a more morally responsible, ruling house." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2997" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="562" RevisionGUID="18212e8f-ed44-44ab-b9a2-57e525d80480" CreationDate="2015-05-08T02:20:27.033" UserId="183" Comment="added 62 characters in body" Text="For questions about the Greek god and ruler of the underworld." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2998" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="562" RevisionGUID="18212e8f-ed44-44ab-b9a2-57e525d80480" CreationDate="2015-05-08T02:20:27.033" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 79, 11 edit id of 170" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="2999" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="590" RevisionGUID="be08dbf5-e3a8-4087-980e-6dda45dfc10f" CreationDate="2015-05-08T02:20:46.663" UserId="183" Comment="added 98 characters in body" Text="For questions about what a being may encounter after death, such as a heaven, hell, or underworld." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3000" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="590" RevisionGUID="be08dbf5-e3a8-4087-980e-6dda45dfc10f" CreationDate="2015-05-08T02:20:46.663" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 79, 11 edit id of 169" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3001" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="592" RevisionGUID="ab2737bc-6105-4d36-a46c-3d91fe120329" CreationDate="2015-05-08T02:20:54.447" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3002" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="593" RevisionGUID="4ba6ca3f-642f-44db-8334-23ad17f5ecd3" CreationDate="2015-05-08T02:20:54.447" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3003" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="594" RevisionGUID="83a16ae6-9f72-490c-8be7-660b162c7bc4" CreationDate="2015-05-08T02:23:35.340" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3004" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="595" RevisionGUID="80dbc973-68c4-4875-a108-04a4f25b073c" CreationDate="2015-05-08T02:23:35.340" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3005" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="572" RevisionGUID="f5b7d816-f6c2-4ee0-9c95-7f9edd5638e1" CreationDate="2015-05-08T02:34:22.903" UserId="42" Comment="Editting question to address only Loeg, since Sualtam appears to have a different explanation." Text="In the Táin Bó Cúailnge, the men of Ulster are disabled by a curse placed upon them by Macha to feel her labor pains in their hour of greatest need, thus disabling them when the army of Connacht attacks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cúchulainn is immune to this curse.  As I understand it, he is immune because he is yet a beardless youth, and so a curse upon the men does not apply to him.  This makes sense, since, when an exhausted Cúchulainn sleeps three days, the boys of Ulster come to the defense.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've also read that the explanation of his immunity is due to his demi-godhood, being that he is the son of Lugh, the Long Arm.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So why isn't Cúchulainn's charioteer, Loeg mac Riangabra, affected?  I can't find where it's stated he's older that Cúchulainn, but if I'm mistaken on that point, I [must not](http://old.john844.org/sites/default/files/images/scan0105.preview.jpg) [be alone](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Cuinbattle.jpg)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3006" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="572" RevisionGUID="f5b7d816-f6c2-4ee0-9c95-7f9edd5638e1" CreationDate="2015-05-08T02:34:22.903" UserId="42" Comment="Editting question to address only Loeg, since Sualtam appears to have a different explanation." Text="Why isn't Loeg disabled by Macha's curse?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3008" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="596" RevisionGUID="ee2e0ef3-5750-4495-bc2e-148d7eec40bd" CreationDate="2015-05-08T03:01:04.597" UserId="42" Text="In the Táin Bó Cúailnge, the men of Ulster are disabled by a curse placed upon them by Macha to feel her labor pains in their hour of greatest need, thus disabling them when the army of Connacht attacks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cúchulainn is immune to the curse.  I've understood that he is immune because he is a beardless youth, and so not affected by a curse affecting the men of Ulster.  It may also be due to his demi-godhood, as a son of Lugh, the Long Arm.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In either case, Súaltam, Cúchulainn's human father, is neither a youth, nor is he descended from the Tuatha Dé Danann.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [translation from L. Winifred Faraday](http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/tain_faraday.pdf) states specifically that Súaltam was unaffected:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A warning was sent from Fergus to the Ulstermen here, for friendship. They were now in the weakness, except Cúchulainn and his father Sualtaim.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And [this version combining the translation efforts of Joseph Dunn Ernst Windisch](http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/) has as apparently unaffected Súaltam out grazing his horse with Cúchulainn when the warning from Fergus arrives, and Súaltam sets out for Emain Macha (in [6: March of the Host](http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/March.html)).  The is after the curse is first said to have taken affect in [4: The Foretelling](http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/Foretelling.html).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Related question:  http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/572/why-arent-s%C3%BAaltam-and-loeg-disabled-by-machas-curse" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3009" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="596" RevisionGUID="ee2e0ef3-5750-4495-bc2e-148d7eec40bd" CreationDate="2015-05-08T03:01:04.597" UserId="42" Text="Why isn't Súaltam disabled by Macha's curse?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3010" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="596" RevisionGUID="ee2e0ef3-5750-4495-bc2e-148d7eec40bd" CreationDate="2015-05-08T03:01:04.597" UserId="42" Text="|irish|ulster-cycle|tain-bo-cuailnge|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3011" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="572" RevisionGUID="36b7c2e6-a8bb-47e6-b08f-2d65fcd349fe" CreationDate="2015-05-08T03:04:06.790" UserId="42" Comment="added 117 characters in body" Text="In the Táin Bó Cúailnge, the men of Ulster are disabled by a curse placed upon them by Macha to feel her labor pains in their hour of greatest need, thus disabling them when the army of Connacht attacks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cúchulainn is immune to this curse.  As I understand it, he is immune because he is yet a beardless youth, and so a curse upon the men does not apply to him.  This makes sense, since, when an exhausted Cúchulainn sleeps three days, the boys of Ulster come to the defense.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've also read that the explanation of his immunity is due to his demi-godhood, being that he is the son of Lugh, the Long Arm.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So why isn't Cúchulainn's charioteer, Loeg mac Riangabra, affected?  I can't find where it's stated he's older that Cúchulainn, but if I'm mistaken on that point, I [must not](http://old.john844.org/sites/default/files/images/scan0105.preview.jpg) [be alone](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Cuinbattle.jpg)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Related question: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/596/why-isnt-s%C3%BAaltam-disabled-by-machas-curse" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3012" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="596" RevisionGUID="153e378e-5f23-405d-851c-02c4f7667143" CreationDate="2015-05-08T03:19:07.513" UserId="42" Comment="added 5 characters in body" Text="In the Táin Bó Cúailnge, the men of Ulster are disabled by a curse placed upon them by Macha to feel her labor pains in their hour of greatest need, thus disabling them when the army of Connacht attacks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cúchulainn is immune to the curse.  I've understood that he is immune because he is a beardless youth, and so not affected by a curse affecting the men of Ulster.  It may also be due to his demi-godhood, as a son of Lugh, the Long Arm.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In either case, Súaltam, Cúchulainn's human father, is neither a youth, nor is he descended from the Tuatha Dé Danann.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [translation from L. Winifred Faraday](http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/tain_faraday.pdf) states specifically that Súaltam was unaffected:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A warning was sent from Fergus to the Ulstermen here, for friendship. They were now in the weakness, except Cúchulainn and his father Sualtaim.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And [this version combining the translation efforts of Joseph Dunn and Ernst Windisch](http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/) has an apparently unaffected Súaltam out grazing his horse with Cúchulainn when the warning from Fergus arrives, and Súaltam sets out for Emain Macha (in [6: March of the Host](http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/March.html)).  This is after the curse is first said to have taken affect in [4: The Foretelling](http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/Foretelling.html).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Related question:  http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/572/why-arent-s%C3%BAaltam-and-loeg-disabled-by-machas-curse" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3013" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="593" RevisionGUID="4d8f70d8-30ce-4f56-b71f-f5a5d4b9dd1a" CreationDate="2015-05-08T05:10:25.270" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 37 characters in body" Text="A Greek goddess and the wife of Zeus." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3014" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="593" RevisionGUID="4d8f70d8-30ce-4f56-b71f-f5a5d4b9dd1a" CreationDate="2015-05-08T05:10:25.270" Comment="Proposed by 62 approved by 11, 108 edit id of 173" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3015" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="595" RevisionGUID="dff57cbf-c906-47dd-84d8-35ff1f8fd9e4" CreationDate="2015-05-08T05:10:46.023" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 64 characters in body" Text="Joseph Campbell's theoretical structure for (religious) stories." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3016" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="595" RevisionGUID="dff57cbf-c906-47dd-84d8-35ff1f8fd9e4" CreationDate="2015-05-08T05:10:46.023" Comment="Proposed by 62 approved by 11, 108 edit id of 175" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3017" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="594" RevisionGUID="5c0846b2-e958-4071-a6ff-7943a5570416" CreationDate="2015-05-08T05:10:50.900" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 128 characters in body" Text="Joseph Campbell's theoretical structure for (religious) stories. It was first proposed in the book *Hero with a Thousand Faces*." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3018" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="594" RevisionGUID="5c0846b2-e958-4071-a6ff-7943a5570416" CreationDate="2015-05-08T05:10:50.900" Comment="Proposed by 62 approved by 11, 108 edit id of 174" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3019" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="592" RevisionGUID="ee588022-b990-4bf0-92d1-bf5f59e29862" CreationDate="2015-05-08T05:11:03.977" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 37 characters in body" Text="A Greek goddess and the wife of Zeus." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3020" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="592" RevisionGUID="ee588022-b990-4bf0-92d1-bf5f59e29862" CreationDate="2015-05-08T05:11:03.977" Comment="Proposed by 62 approved by 11, 108 edit id of 172" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3024" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="580" RevisionGUID="978bc29e-e7f6-4394-8867-d928aa331948" CreationDate="2015-05-08T06:45:58.410" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="shortened" Text="an epic story making up part of the Ulster Cycle of Irish mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3025" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="580" RevisionGUID="978bc29e-e7f6-4394-8867-d928aa331948" CreationDate="2015-05-08T06:45:58.410" Comment="Proposed by 62 approved by 11, 79 edit id of 171" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3026" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="597" RevisionGUID="18a88215-2a10-45ee-b644-f45ff28951db" CreationDate="2015-05-08T07:02:17.230" UserId="57" Text="Hades, apparently, was present in the battlefield when Hercules besieged Pylos: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And so suffered monstrous Hades even as the rest a bitter arrow, when this same man, the son of Zeus that beareth the aegis, smote him in Pylos amid the dead, and gave him over to pains. But he went to the house of Zeus and to high Olympus with grief at heart, pierced through with pains; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hom. Il. 5.395](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hom.+Il.+5.395&amp;fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is one of the rare instances we see [Hades outside the Underworld][1]. One interpretation for his presence in the battlefield is that he was there collecting or overseeing the collection of souls. This interpretation, however, feels to me like an attempt to attach Christian symbolism to the story. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any other references for Hades being in battlefields, while the battle was going on (or immediately after it ended)? And if so, are there any explicit mentions on what exactly was the reason for him being there?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/496/57" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3027" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="597" RevisionGUID="18a88215-2a10-45ee-b644-f45ff28951db" CreationDate="2015-05-08T07:02:17.230" UserId="57" Text="Was it common for Hades to visit battlefields?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3028" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="597" RevisionGUID="18a88215-2a10-45ee-b644-f45ff28951db" CreationDate="2015-05-08T07:02:17.230" UserId="57" Text="|greek|hades|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3029" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="597" RevisionGUID="d44149e4-c68e-4b51-8824-8f01c680c3e7" CreationDate="2015-05-08T07:38:19.103" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 63 characters in body; edited title" Text="Hades, apparently, was present in the battlefield when Hercules besieged Pylos: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And so suffered monstrous Hades even as the rest a bitter arrow, when this same man, the son of Zeus that beareth the aegis, smote him in Pylos amid the dead, and gave him over to pains. But he went to the house of Zeus and to high Olympus with grief at heart, pierced through with pains; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hom. Il. 5.395](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hom.+Il.+5.395&amp;fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is one of the rare instances we see [Hades outside the Underworld][1]. One interpretation for his presence in the battlefield is that he was there collecting or overseeing the collection of souls. This interpretation, however, feels to me like an attempt to attach Christian symbolism to the story. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any other references for Hades visiting battlefields? And if so, are there any explicit mentions on what exactly was the reason for him being there?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/496/57" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3030" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="597" RevisionGUID="d44149e4-c68e-4b51-8824-8f01c680c3e7" CreationDate="2015-05-08T07:38:19.103" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 63 characters in body; edited title" Text="Why would Hades visit a battlefield?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3031" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="430" RevisionGUID="3e07b0f8-bcdd-4f91-a549-d68a38733ea5" CreationDate="2015-05-08T08:06:07.843" UserId="111" Comment="changed tag" Text="|comparative|arctic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3032" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="598" RevisionGUID="f628c39e-7540-47c8-be56-17b03c0f4a9d" CreationDate="2015-05-08T09:45:23.427" UserId="57" Text="Homer, in book 5 of the Iliad, tells us that during his expedition against [Neleus][1] of Pylos (Poseidon's son), Heracles won battles against Poseidon and Apollo, and managed to wound Hera and Hades with his arrows. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He also killed Neleus and eleven of his twelve sons, including [Periclymenus][2] (an Argonaut and a shapeshifter). Citizens of Pylos that stood in his way suffered a similar fate.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All this, because Heracles felt Neleus had insulted him. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, Heracles wasn't known for running away from a fight. However, going into battle and slaughtering a city over an insult feels a bit out of character for the classical version of the legend. Furthermore, overcoming not one but four Olympians is simply too magnificent a feat. Some, including [Pindar][3], are highly skeptical of the story: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For how could Heracles have wielded his club against the trident, when Poseidon took his stand to guard Pylos, and pressed him hard, and Phoebus pressed him hard, attacking with his silver bow; nor did Hades keep his staff unmoved, with which he leads mortal bodies down to the hollow path of the dead. My mouth, fling this story away from me! Since to speak evil of the gods is a hateful skill, and untimely boasting is in harmony with madness. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Olympian Ode 9: For Epharmostus of Opus Wrestling-Match 466 B.C., Pindar](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0033.tlg001.perseus-eng1:9)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was there a significant change in views about Heracles from Homeric times (around 850 BCE) to Pindar's time (c. 522 – c. 443 BC)? Was the Homeric version of Heracles a far more brutal hero than the classical version? And if so, have we identified other distinct points in the transformation of the myth?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neleus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periclymenus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pindar" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3033" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="598" RevisionGUID="f628c39e-7540-47c8-be56-17b03c0f4a9d" CreationDate="2015-05-08T09:45:23.427" UserId="57" Text="Was there a significant transformation of the Heracles mythos from Homeric times to classical times?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3034" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="598" RevisionGUID="f628c39e-7540-47c8-be56-17b03c0f4a9d" CreationDate="2015-05-08T09:45:23.427" UserId="57" Text="|greek|hercules|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3035" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="597" RevisionGUID="dcff1be7-641b-4159-a49c-aaf591ed6be1" CreationDate="2015-05-08T10:14:26.357" UserId="57" Comment="added 18 characters in body" Text="Hades, apparently, was present in the battlefield when Hercules besieged Pylos: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And so suffered monstrous Hades even as the rest a bitter arrow, when this same man, the son of Zeus that beareth the aegis, smote him in Pylos amid the dead, and gave him over to pains. But he went to the house of Zeus and to high Olympus with grief at heart, pierced through with pains; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hom. Il. 5.395](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hom.+Il.+5.395&amp;fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is one of the rare instances we see [Hades outside the Underworld][1]. One interpretation for his presence in the battlefield is that he was there collecting or overseeing the collection of souls (&quot;amid the dead&quot;). This interpretation, however, feels to me like an attempt to attach Christian symbolism to the story. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any other references for Hades visiting battlefields? And if so, are there any explicit mentions on what exactly was the reason for him being there?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/496/57" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3037" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="599" RevisionGUID="bcfa03a7-ed44-48c3-ae38-50c8c17eeadc" CreationDate="2015-05-08T15:11:28.993" UserId="51" Text="On [Wikipedia page][1] we can read:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Vimāna is a mythological flying palace or chariot described in Hindu texts and Sanskrit epics.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Early 20th-century sanskrit [Vaimānika Śāstra][2] claim that the vimānas mentioned in ancient Sanskrit epics were aerodynamic flying vehicles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The topics covered include, &quot;definition of an airplane, a pilot, aerial routes, food, clothing, metals, metal production, mirrors and their uses in wars, varieties of machinery and yantras, planes like ‘mantrik’, ‘tantrik’, and ‘kritak’&quot; and four planes called **Shakuna, Sundara, Rukma, and Tripura** are described in greater detail.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The question is: what are the main differences between those four planes?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vimana&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaim%C4%81nika_Sh%C4%81stra" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3038" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="599" RevisionGUID="bcfa03a7-ed44-48c3-ae38-50c8c17eeadc" CreationDate="2015-05-08T15:11:28.993" UserId="51" Text="What are the differences between Shakuna, Sundara, Rukma and Tripura Vimana flying machines?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3039" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="599" RevisionGUID="bcfa03a7-ed44-48c3-ae38-50c8c17eeadc" CreationDate="2015-05-08T15:11:28.993" UserId="51" Text="|hindu|vimana|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3040" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="600" RevisionGUID="af46c30c-006a-4c0a-b32c-cc3d1126c7f8" CreationDate="2015-05-08T15:26:58.097" UserId="9" Text="Pylos was the only city in ancient greece dedicated to the worship of Hades so it would appear that Hades joined in the battle on the side of the Pylosians. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; During the battle for Pylos, Heracles 1 wounded Hades, who was siding&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with the Pylians, for only in Pylos the lord of the Underworld was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; worshipped.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Source][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.greecetravel.com/greekmyths/argos12.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3043" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="600" RevisionGUID="a137534a-36ed-4b9a-a423-15dc8b5db56f" CreationDate="2015-05-08T15:36:42.520" UserId="79" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="Pylos was the only city in ancient Greece dedicated to the worship of Hades. So, it would appear that Hades joined the battle on the side of the Pylosians. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; During the battle for Pylos, Heracles wounded Hades, who was siding&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with the Pylosians, for only in Pylos the lord of the Underworld was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; worshipped.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Source][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.greecetravel.com/greekmyths/argos12.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3044" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="600" RevisionGUID="b01bd418-6bb2-4ace-a6e2-f52023ec7090" CreationDate="2015-05-08T15:43:11.217" UserId="11" Comment="This source matches the quote" Text="Pylos was the only city in ancient Greece dedicated to the worship of Hades. So, it would appear that Hades joined the battle on the side of the Pylosians. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; During the battle for Pylos, Heracles wounded Hades, who was siding&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with the Pylosians, for only in Pylos the lord of the Underworld was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; worshipped.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Source][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.maicar.com/GML/Nestor.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3045" PostHistoryTypeId="8" PostId="600" RevisionGUID="8c5732a3-a074-457e-986d-80675d5dd314" CreationDate="2015-05-08T15:44:17.450" UserId="9" Comment="Rollback to [a137534a-36ed-4b9a-a423-15dc8b5db56f]" Text="Pylos was the only city in ancient Greece dedicated to the worship of Hades. So, it would appear that Hades joined the battle on the side of the Pylosians. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; During the battle for Pylos, Heracles wounded Hades, who was siding&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with the Pylosians, for only in Pylos the lord of the Underworld was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; worshipped.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Source][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.greecetravel.com/greekmyths/argos12.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3046" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="600" RevisionGUID="16bc7210-06cc-49c4-bbc8-20d70b3ada64" CreationDate="2015-05-08T15:44:37.310" UserId="9" Comment="deleted 13 characters in body" Text="Pylos was the only city in ancient Greece dedicated to the worship of Hades. So, it would appear that Hades joined the battle on the side of the Pylosians. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; During the battle for Pylos, Heracles wounded Hades, who was siding&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with the Pylosians, for only in Pylos the lord of the Underworld was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; worshipped.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Source][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.maicar.com/GML/Nestor.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3047" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="601" RevisionGUID="04384ac5-c3fb-481c-a80f-3f38fa28d244" CreationDate="2015-05-08T16:01:54.747" UserId="11" Text="Indeed, the city of [Pylos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pylos), in Elis, was one of the few places with a cult of worship dedicated to Hades. This his probably why he cared enough about the city to be personally present for the battle. There was one cult in the main city itself:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [2] The sacred enclosure of Hades and its temple （for the Eleans have these among their possessions） are opened once every year, but not even on this occasion is anybody permitted to enter except the priest. The following is the reason why the Eleans worship Hades; they are the only men we know of so to do. It is said that, when Heracles was leading an expedition against Pylus in Elis, Athena was one of his allies. Now among those who came to fight on the side of the Pylians was Hades, who was the foe of Heracles but was worshipped at Pylus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [3] Homer is quoted in support of the story, who says in the Iliad:“And among them huge Hades suffered a wound from a swift arrow,&#xD;&#xA;When the same man, the son of aegis-bearing Zeus,&#xD;&#xA;Hit him in Pylus among the dead, and gave him over to pains.&#xD;&#xA;”Hom. Il. 5.395-397If in the expedition of Agamemnon and Menelaus against Troy Poseidon was according to Homer an ally of the Greeks, it cannot be unnatural for the same poet to hold that Hades helped the Pylians. At any rate it was in the belief that the god was their friend but the enemy of Heracles that the Eleans made the sanctuary for him. The reason why they are wont to open it only once each year is, I suppose, because men too go down only once to Hades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Pausanias, Description of Greece 6. 25. 2-3](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0160%3Abook%3D6%3Achapter%3D25%3Asection%3D2)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There was also a nearby precinct devoted to Hades at Mount [Minthe](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Minthe), a mountain named after a nymph who was Hades' concubine:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Near Pylus, towards the east, is a mountain named after Minthe, who, according to myth, became the concubine of Hades, was trampled under foot by Core, and was transformed into garden-mint, the plant which some call Hedyosmos.4 Furthermore, near the mountain is a precinct sacred to Hades, which is revered by the Macistians too,5 and also a grove sacred to Demeter, which is situated above the Pylian plain. This plain is fertile; it borders on the sea and stretches along the whole distance between Samicum and the River Neda. But the shore of the sea is narrow and sandy, so that one could not refuse to believe that Pylus got its epithet &quot;emathöeis&quot; therefrom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source [Strabo, Geography 8. 3. 14](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0198%3Abook%3D8%3Achapter%3D3%3Asection%3D14)&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3050" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="602" RevisionGUID="5a8d7578-ecc3-4593-abb5-057103b9f94b" CreationDate="2015-05-08T17:11:01.360" UserId="11" Text="You have two questions here. I'll start with the straightforward part first. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##Which El is the El referred to in the Legend of Keret?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Legend of Keret](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend_of_Keret#cite_note-1), discovered in modern Ras Shamra, is from the late bronze age. It's the right age and the right part of the world to be referring to [El](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)) from the [Ancient Canaanite religion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanite_religion). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It has been suggested that the poem was composed to glorify King Niqmad of Ugarit by giving him a deified ancester, the Keret, King of Hubur, who is the subjectof this poem. The mythological element is sufficiently prominent to justify its inclusion in an account of **Canaanite mythology.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Middle Eastern Mythology, S. H. Hooke, 88](http://books.google.com/books?id=YSUnmTKWhtkC)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##Is the Canaanite El the same deity as the Bible's Yahweh?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This fascinating question of is a topic under much contention among historians of the period, but I found the most compelling argument from [John Day](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Day_(Old_Testament_scholar)):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the nineteenth century J. Wellhausen believed Yahweh to be the same as El, and more recently this has been particularly argued by F.M. Cross and J.C. de Moor. However, the following arguments may be brought against this. First, in the Ugaritic texts the god El is revealed to be wholly benevolent in nature, whereas Yayweh has a fierce as well as a kind side. Secondly, as T.N.D. Mettinger has rightly emphasized, the earliest evidence, such as that found in Judg. 5.4-5, associates Yahweh with the storm, which was not something with which El was connected at all. Rather, this is reminiscent of Baal. Thirdly, as for F.M. Cross's view that Yahweh was originally a part of El's cultic title, 'El who creates hosts' (*'il ḏū yahwī ṣaba'ōt*), this is pure speculation. The formula in question is nowhere attested, whether inside or outside the Bible. Cross's reasons for thinking that *yhwh ṣb't* cannot simply mean 'Lord of hosts', namely, that a proper name should not appear in the construct, is incorrect. Further *hyh (hwh)* is not attested in Hebrew in the hiphil ('cause to be', 'create'), though this is case in Aramaic and Syriac. Yahweh in any case more likely means 'he is' (qal) rather than 'he causes to be/creates' (hiphil): to suppose otherwise requires emendation of the Hebrew text in Exod. 3.14 (*'ehyeh*, 'I am'), which explains the name Yahweh. I conclude, therefore, that El and Yahweh were originally distinct deities that became amalgamated. This view was held as long ago as F.K. Movers, and has been argued since by scholars such as O. Eissfeldt and T.N.D. Mettinger.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan, 13-14](http://books.google.com/books?id=y-gfwlltlRwC)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This section in the book is very well cited and I recommend following up on his different sources; it also goes on quite fascinatingly at some length, but to do so is outside the scope of this answer." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3051" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="602" RevisionGUID="289fe4e8-b12b-4bb2-a952-45c964f5f0b0" CreationDate="2015-05-08T17:17:46.860" UserId="11" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="You have two questions here. I'll start with the straightforward part first. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##Which El is the El referred to in the Legend of Keret?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Legend of Keret](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend_of_Keret#cite_note-1), discovered in modern Ras Shamra, is from the late bronze age. It's the right age and the right part of the world to be referring to [El](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)) from the [Ancient Canaanite religion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanite_religion). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It has been suggested that the poem was composed to glorify King Niqmad of Ugarit by giving him a deified ancester, the Keret, King of Hubur, who is the subjectof this poem. The mythological element is sufficiently prominent to justify its inclusion in an account of **Canaanite mythology.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Middle Eastern Mythology, S. H. Hooke, 88](http://books.google.com/books?id=YSUnmTKWhtkC)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##Is the Canaanite El the same deity as the Bible's Yahweh?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This fascinating question of is a topic under much contention among historians of the period, but I found the most compelling argument from [John Day](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Day_(Old_Testament_scholar)):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the nineteenth century J. Wellhausen believed Yahweh to be the same as El, and more recently this has been particularly argued by F.M. Cross and J.C. de Moor. However, the following arguments may be brought against this. First, in the Ugaritic texts the god El is revealed to be wholly benevolent in nature, whereas Yayweh has a fierce as well as a kind side. Secondly, as T.N.D. Mettinger has rightly emphasized, the earliest evidence, such as that found in Judg. 5.4-5, associates Yahweh with the storm, which was not something with which El was connected at all. Rather, this is reminiscent of Baal. Thirdly, as for F.M. Cross's view that Yahweh was originally a part of El's cultic title, 'El who creates hosts' (*'il ḏū yahwī ṣaba'ōt*), this is pure speculation. The formula in question is nowhere attested, whether inside or outside the Bible. Cross's reasons for thinking that *yhwh ṣb't* cannot simply mean 'Lord of hosts', namely, that a proper name should not appear in the construct, is incorrect. Further *hyh (hwh)* is not attested in Hebrew in the hiphil ('cause to be', 'create'), though this is case in Aramaic and Syriac. Yahweh in any case more likely means 'he is' (qal) rather than 'he causes to be/creates' (hiphil): to suppose otherwise requires emendation of the Hebrew text in Exod. 3.14 (*'ehyeh*, 'I am'), which explains the name Yahweh. **I conclude, therefore, that El and Yahweh were originally distinct deities that became amalgamated.** This view was held as long ago as F.K. Movers, and has been argued since by scholars such as O. Eissfeldt and T.N.D. Mettinger.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan, John Day, 13-14](http://books.google.com/books?id=y-gfwlltlRwC)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This section in the book is very well cited and I recommend following up on his different sources; it also goes on quite fascinatingly at some length, but to do so is outside the scope of this answer." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3052" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="603" RevisionGUID="b96b9468-088b-4a82-8f54-f6f27a1eb8f4" CreationDate="2015-05-08T17:19:34.713" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="Cadmus married Harmonia.  Their wedding was the first between mortals that was ever attended by Olympians, whose favor ensured Cadmus a long and successful reign." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3053" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="603" RevisionGUID="b96b9468-088b-4a82-8f54-f6f27a1eb8f4" CreationDate="2015-05-08T17:19:34.713" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="Was Cadmus the only mortal whose wedding was attended by Olympians?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3054" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="603" RevisionGUID="b96b9468-088b-4a82-8f54-f6f27a1eb8f4" CreationDate="2015-05-08T17:19:34.713" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3056" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="516" RevisionGUID="9a6ee179-1bef-41eb-a6d0-5a753686595b" CreationDate="2015-05-08T17:40:37.810" UserId="183" Comment="edited tags" Text="|welsh|mabinogion|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3057" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="533" RevisionGUID="c92b393b-c7e4-4f8c-adfd-3184372d8a8c" CreationDate="2015-05-08T17:40:50.680" UserId="183" Comment="edited tags" Text="|welsh|mabinogion|irish|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3058" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="371" RevisionGUID="922c2be8-2d84-4976-9a94-2d7454cb778a" CreationDate="2015-05-08T17:42:05.570" UserId="18" Comment="Re-tagged." Text="|angels|christian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3059" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="371" RevisionGUID="922c2be8-2d84-4976-9a94-2d7454cb778a" CreationDate="2015-05-08T17:42:05.570" Comment="Proposed by 18 approved by 42, -1 edit id of 176" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3060" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="371" RevisionGUID="97bcf448-a2f5-4478-b842-2fcab894f0f0" CreationDate="2015-05-08T17:42:05.570" UserId="108" Comment="Re-tagged." Text="|judeo-christian|angels|christian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3061" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="371" RevisionGUID="613f3f10-1ef9-4cf6-bdc6-fa8bcb02d2a2" CreationDate="2015-05-08T17:49:43.833" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="|judeo-christian|angels|christian|judaism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3062" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="371" RevisionGUID="ae4f4f6f-4618-4d39-8e53-353adcd24d79" CreationDate="2015-05-08T18:07:08.270" UserId="11" Comment="The book of Revelation is not in the New Testament. Whether this should be tagged judeo-christian is a matter for discussion, but it should not be tagged judaism." Text="|judeo-christian|angels|christian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3063" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="371" RevisionGUID="829cb468-893a-492e-8d07-283287aee432" CreationDate="2015-05-08T18:10:57.287" UserId="108" Comment="The question is not about Revelations specifically" Text="In Judeo-Christian traditions, [Heaven](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven) is defended by an army of good angels known as the [Heavenly Host](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavenly_host). For example, Christian mythology from the [Book of Revelation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation) states that the Heavenly Host will take part in the [War in Heaven](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Heaven) and defeat the army of Satan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does God Himself command the Heavenly Host in combat? Or does God delegate the responsibility to an angelic commander? [Revelation 12](https://bible.org/netbible/index.htm?rev12.htm) says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 12:7 Then war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which seems to suggest that [Michael](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_%28archangel%29) is in command for at least that conflict. Is that the typical situation? Why doesn't God command his side in the war?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3065" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="604" RevisionGUID="75ba43cb-2c09-40d1-b3d0-05d218c8a341" CreationDate="2015-05-08T18:23:46.400" UserId="183" Text="Cadmus and Harmonia may have been the first mortals to be married while Olympians watched, but they were not the only ones.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Peleus and Thetis**](http://www.mythindex.com/greek-mythology/P/Peleus.html) were married on Mount Pelion. Thetis was, according to some stories, immortal, but Peleus himself was mortal.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While on mount Pelion, Peleus married the Nereid Thetis, by whom he became the father of Achilles, though some regarded this Thetis as different from the marine divinity, and called her a daughter of Cheiron. (Apollon. Rhod. i. 558; comp. THETIS.) The gods took part in the marriage solemnity, and Cheiron presented Peleus with a lance (Hom. Il. xvi. 143, xxiv. 61, &amp;c., which, however, according to Pindar, Nem. iii. 56, Peleus made for himself), Poseidon with the immortal horses, Balius and Xanthus, and the other gods with arms. (Apollod. iii. 13. § 5; Horn. Il. xvi. 381, xvii. 443, xviii. 84.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eris was not invited, however, and [began the Trojan War](http://web.stanford.edu/~plomio/history.html)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3066" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="601" RevisionGUID="b9f89bdc-917e-4327-b6e1-e58af90d7a7f" CreationDate="2015-05-08T18:23:57.633" UserId="57" Comment="added 8 characters in body" Text="Indeed, the city of [Pylos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pylos), in Elis, was one of the few places with a cult of worship dedicated to Hades. This his probably why he cared enough about the city to be personally present for the battle. There was one cult in the main city itself:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [2] The sacred enclosure of Hades and its temple (for the Eleans have these among their possessions) are opened once every year, but not even on this occasion is anybody permitted to enter except the priest. The following is the reason why the Eleans worship Hades; they are the only men we know of so to do. It is said that, when Heracles was leading an expedition against Pylus in Elis, Athena was one of his allies. Now among those who came to fight on the side of the Pylians was Hades, who was the foe of Heracles but was worshipped at Pylus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [3] Homer is quoted in support of the story, who says in the Iliad: “And among them huge Hades suffered a wound from a swift arrow,&#xD;&#xA;When the same man, the son of aegis-bearing Zeus,&#xD;&#xA;Hit him in Pylus among the dead, and gave him over to pains.” Hom. Il. 5.395-397&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; If in the expedition of Agamemnon and Menelaus against Troy Poseidon was according to Homer an ally of the Greeks, it cannot be unnatural for the same poet to hold that Hades helped the Pylians. At any rate it was in the belief that the god was their friend but the enemy of Heracles that the Eleans made the sanctuary for him. The reason why they are wont to open it only once each year is, I suppose, because men too go down only once to Hades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Pausanias, Description of Greece 6. 25. 2-3](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0160%3Abook%3D6%3Achapter%3D25%3Asection%3D2)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There was also a nearby precinct devoted to Hades at Mount [Minthe](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Minthe), a mountain named after a nymph who was Hades' concubine:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Near Pylus, towards the east, is a mountain named after Minthe, who, according to myth, became the concubine of Hades, was trampled under foot by Core, and was transformed into garden-mint, the plant which some call Hedyosmos.4 Furthermore, near the mountain is a precinct sacred to Hades, which is revered by the Macistians too,5 and also a grove sacred to Demeter, which is situated above the Pylian plain. This plain is fertile; it borders on the sea and stretches along the whole distance between Samicum and the River Neda. But the shore of the sea is narrow and sandy, so that one could not refuse to believe that Pylus got its epithet &quot;emathöeis&quot; therefrom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source [Strabo, Geography 8. 3. 14](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0198%3Abook%3D8%3Achapter%3D3%3Asection%3D14)&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3067" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="604" RevisionGUID="e437f680-8f64-495d-a55e-15a972011ee8" CreationDate="2015-05-08T18:28:53.297" UserId="183" Comment="added 162 characters in body" Text="Cadmus and Harmonia may have been the first mortals to be married while Olympians watched, but they were not the only ones.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Peleus and Thetis**](http://www.mythindex.com/greek-mythology/P/Peleus.html) were married on Mount Pelion. Thetis was, according to some stories, immortal, but Peleus himself was mortal.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While on mount Pelion, Peleus married the Nereid Thetis, by whom he became the father of Achilles, though some regarded this Thetis as different from the marine divinity, and called her a daughter of Cheiron. (Apollon. Rhod. i. 558; comp. THETIS.) The gods took part in the marriage solemnity, and Cheiron presented Peleus with a lance (Hom. Il. xvi. 143, xxiv. 61, &amp;c., which, however, according to Pindar, Nem. iii. 56, Peleus made for himself), Poseidon with the immortal horses, Balius and Xanthus, and the other gods with arms. (Apollod. iii. 13. § 5; Horn. Il. xvi. 381, xvii. 443, xviii. 84.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eris was not invited, however, and [began the Trojan War](http://web.stanford.edu/~plomio/history.html).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Additionally, [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hymen_(god)) claims that Hymenaios was supposed to attend every wedding, being the wedding god himself." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3068" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="601" RevisionGUID="f08eb09e-7e8a-4be0-8abd-5f9ec29256ac" CreationDate="2015-05-08T18:30:07.300" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body" Text="Indeed, the city of [Pylos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pylos), in Elis, was one of the few places with a cult of worship dedicated to Hades. This his probably why he cared enough about the city to be personally present for the battle. There was one cult in the main city itself:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [2] The sacred enclosure of Hades and its temple (for the Eleans have these among their possessions) are opened once every year, but not even on this occasion is anybody permitted to enter except the priest. The following is the reason why the Eleans worship Hades; they are the only men we know of so to do. It is said that, when Heracles was leading an expedition against Pylus in Elis, Athena was one of his allies. Now among those who came to fight on the side of the Pylians was Hades, who was the foe of Heracles but was worshipped at Pylus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [3] Homer is quoted in support of the story, who says in the Iliad: “And among them huge Hades suffered a wound from a swift arrow,&#xD;&#xA;When the same man, the son of aegis-bearing Zeus,&#xD;&#xA;Hit him in Pylus among the dead, and gave him over to pains.” Hom. Il. 5.395-397&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; If in the expedition of Agamemnon and Menelaus against Troy Poseidon was according to Homer an ally of the Greeks, it cannot be unnatural for the same poet to hold that Hades helped the Pylians. At any rate it was in the belief that the god was their friend but the enemy of Heracles that the Eleans made the sanctuary for him. The reason why they are wont to open it only once each year is, I suppose, because men too go down only once to Hades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Pausanias, Description of Greece 6. 25. 2-3](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0160%3Abook%3D6%3Achapter%3D25%3Asection%3D2)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There was also a nearby precinct devoted to Hades at Mount [Minthe](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Minthe), a mountain named after a nymph who was Hades' concubine:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Near Pylus, towards the east, is a mountain named after Minthe, who, according to myth, became the concubine of Hades, was trampled under foot by Core, and was transformed into garden-mint, the plant which some call Hedyosmos. Furthermore, near the mountain is a precinct sacred to Hades, which is revered by the Macistians too, and also a grove sacred to Demeter, which is situated above the Pylian plain. This plain is fertile; it borders on the sea and stretches along the whole distance between Samicum and the River Neda. But the shore of the sea is narrow and sandy, so that one could not refuse to believe that Pylus got its epithet &quot;emathöeis&quot; therefrom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source [Strabo, Geography 8. 3. 14](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0198%3Abook%3D8%3Achapter%3D3%3Asection%3D14)&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3069" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="605" RevisionGUID="7876bd9a-87bc-4606-90f1-2c5dc70e9dbd" CreationDate="2015-05-08T20:09:43.037" UserId="11" Text="In [Leviticus 16.8-10](http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9917#v=8), there is a reference to Azazel (עֲזָאזֵל):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 	חוְנָתַן אַהֲרֹן עַל שְׁנֵי הַשְּׂעִירִם גֹּרָלוֹת גּוֹרָל אֶחָד לַיהֹוָה וְגוֹרָל אֶחָד לַעֲזָאזֵל:  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 	טוְהִקְרִיב אַהֲרֹן אֶת הַשָּׂעִיר אֲשֶׁר עָלָה עָלָיו הַגּוֹרָל לַיהוָֹה וְעָשָׂהוּ חַטָּאת:  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 	יוְהַשָּׂעִיר אֲשֶׁר עָלָה עָלָיו הַגּוֹרָל לַעֲזָאזֵל יָעֳמַד חַי לִפְנֵי יְהוָֹה לְכַפֵּר עָלָיו לְשַׁלַּח אֹתוֹ לַעֲזָאזֵל הַמִּדְבָּרָה:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Aaron shall place lots upon the two he goats: one lot &quot;For the Lord,&quot; and the other lot, &quot;For Azazel.&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Aaron shall bring the he goat upon which the lot, &quot;For the Lord,&quot; came up, and designate it as a sin offering.	 &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And the he goat upon which the lot &quot;For Azazel&quot; came up, shall be placed while still alive, before the Lord, to [initiate] atonement upon it, and to send it away to Azazel, into the desert.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It would be extraordinarily unusual for Aaron to be sacrificing a goat to a separate entity. Arguably the most important prayer in Judaism is the [Shema](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shema_Yisrael), &quot;Hear oh Israel, the Lord is G-d, the Lord is One!&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- So, then, who or what is Azazel? Is Azazel a deity or a concept (as discussed under [Wikipedia: Scapegoat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapegoat))? &#xD;&#xA;   - If the former, why would Aaron be sacrificing to a second entity?&#xD;&#xA;   - If the latter, what did the ceremony *actually* mean?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3070" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="605" RevisionGUID="7876bd9a-87bc-4606-90f1-2c5dc70e9dbd" CreationDate="2015-05-08T20:09:43.037" UserId="11" Text="In the Old Testament, who or what is Azazel?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3071" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="605" RevisionGUID="7876bd9a-87bc-4606-90f1-2c5dc70e9dbd" CreationDate="2015-05-08T20:09:43.037" UserId="11" Text="|judaism|ceremonies|torah|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3072" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="606" RevisionGUID="d90abb7e-cd36-4ac5-94d6-2ab52a3ebfd5" CreationDate="2015-05-08T21:14:57.137" UserId="7" Text="Plato suggests a connection between the [monthly feasts](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attic_calendar#Names_of_the_months), the [Greek tribes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_Greek_tribes#Classical_Greece) and the gods:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For the law will state that there are twelve feasts to the twelve gods who give their names to the several tribes: to each of these they shall perform monthly sacrifices and assign choirs and musical contests, and also gymnastic contests, as is suitable both to the gods themselves and to the several seasons of the year.&amp;mdash;Plato, [_Laws_ \[828b\]](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0166%3Abook%3D8%3Apage%3D828)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Plato often draws from earlier Greek poets (especially Homer and Stesichorus) for his information, but a particularly long passage in [_Phaedrus_](http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/phaedrus.html) seems to be his own creation. In it he describes the procession of Zeus and his attendants through heaven:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zeus, the mighty lord, holding the reins of a winged chariot, leads the way in heaven, ordering all and taking care of all; and there follows him the array of gods and demigods, marshalled in eleven bands; Hestia alone abides at home in the house of heaven; of the rest they who are reckoned among the princely twelve march in their appointed order. They see many blessed sights in the inner heaven, and there are many ways to and fro, along which the blessed gods are passing, every one doing his own work; he may follow who will and can, for jealousy has no place in the celestial choir. But when they go to banquet and festival, then they move up the steep to the top of the vault of heaven. The chariots of the gods in even poise, obeying the rein, glide rapidly; but the others labour, for the vicious steed goes heavily, weighing down the charioteer to the earth when his steed has not been thoroughly trained:-and this is the hour of agony and extremest conflict for the soul. For the immortals, when they are at the end of their course, go forth and stand upon the outside of heaven, and the revolution of the spheres carries them round, and they behold the things beyond.&amp;mdash;Plato, [_Phaedrus_](http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/phaedrus.html) [246e-247c]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A plausible interpretation is that the twelve groups are the [signs of the Zodiac](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac#Hellenistic_and_Roman_era). So Plato suggests at least three different connections between the number of Olympians other sets of twelve:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Monthly festivals,&#xD;&#xA;* The Zodiac, and&#xD;&#xA;* Greek tribes.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tolkien, in [&quot;On Fairy-Stories&quot;](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Fairy-Stories), talks about the &quot;Cauldron of Story&quot; in which elements of myths get pulled apart, mixed around, and combined to produce the stories that are told and retold. Classical-period mythology used [Homeric epics](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeric_Question) as it's base elements, but storytellers (such as Plato's Socrates) were free to create their own organizing structure. There is no fixed membership among the [Twelve](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Olympians) because different storytellers had different visions of Zeus' court. Even a single author, such as Plato, might have different versions designed for [different purposes](http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato-myths/#MytTeaToo).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From this distance, it's probably impossible for us to identify the original connection between the number 12 and the Olympic gods and goddesses. But once the number became attracted, it stuck because of the variety of associations with other groups of twelve. It's not so much that the number was special as that the gods and the number became entwined in each other." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3076" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="607" RevisionGUID="0df14b32-52d5-422b-9454-a569d7c434e0" CreationDate="2015-05-09T00:18:16.810" UserId="183" Text="In [the third branch of the Mabiogion](http://www.mabinogi.net/manawydan.htm), Manawydan and his companions, Pryderi, Rhiannon and Cifga come across a deserted caer. First Pryderi and then Rhiannon go to investigate. They are forced immobile and speechless by putting their hands on a golden bowl; the caer, along with them, then disappears.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Manawydan is plagued with other ills, including a pestilence whereby his crops are besieged by a horde of mice. He catches one and decides to hang it. He is met first by a scholar, a priest, and a bishop, each of whom offer increasing prices to free the mouse. Manawydan declines each one. The scholar and priest leave after his refusal, but the bishop raises the price he will pay.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The bishop eventually allows Manawydan to name his price, whereupon Manawydan replies,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'I will name it,' he replied 'the freeing Rhiannon and Pryderi.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The bishop agrees, and eventually the two lost companions reappear.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How did Manawydan know that the bishop (actually named Llwyd Cil Coed, with ulterior motives) was responsible for the disappearance of his friends and the other plagues upon the foursome?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3077" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="607" RevisionGUID="0df14b32-52d5-422b-9454-a569d7c434e0" CreationDate="2015-05-09T00:18:16.810" UserId="183" Text="How did Manawydan know that the bishop (Llwyd Cil Coed) was responsible for the imprisonment of Pryderi and Rhiannon?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3078" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="607" RevisionGUID="0df14b32-52d5-422b-9454-a569d7c434e0" CreationDate="2015-05-09T00:18:16.810" UserId="183" Text="|welsh|mabinogion|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3080" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="608" RevisionGUID="e7669a71-06e8-45b3-928e-82dce7a44636" CreationDate="2015-05-09T01:38:37.487" UserId="171" Text="The valkyries are female demigod warriors from the Norse mythology. They served Odin by choosing, among the warriors in a battle, who dies and who lives and from the ones who die which ones go to Valhalla, to become Odin's einherjar and wait in the Valhalla's hall for Ragnarok.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it explain how do the valkyries choose among this warriors either who dies or which dead warriors go to Valhalla? For example, based on certain traits like courage or skill in battle." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3081" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="608" RevisionGUID="e7669a71-06e8-45b3-928e-82dce7a44636" CreationDate="2015-05-09T01:38:37.487" UserId="171" Text="How do the valkyries choose among the warriors in a battle?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3082" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="608" RevisionGUID="e7669a71-06e8-45b3-928e-82dce7a44636" CreationDate="2015-05-09T01:38:37.487" UserId="171" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3085" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="609" RevisionGUID="fbe7a1d4-bfff-4fcf-807c-5b4e70f9d177" CreationDate="2015-05-09T07:17:13.307" UserId="108" Text="They are not really the same. In fact, they are ***not*** both fox spirits with ***nine tails*.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here][1]![enter image description here][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;**Left:** A nine-tailed fox depicted in the ancient Chinese bestiary [*Classic of Mountains and Seas* `(山海經)`](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_of_Mountains_and_Seas) | **Right:** A distinctly single tailed *kitsune* depicted in the Japanese almanac `kin mou zui (訓蒙図彙)`&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The fox spirits of later Chinese traditions do not necessarily have nine tails, either. Similarly, Japan later imported the Chinese nine-tailed fox, but it found a place in Japanese folklore as a distinct entity separate from the traditional *kitsune*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although they share notable similarities, the Japanese *kitsune* and the Chinese *hulijing* actually have fundamental differences.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Japanese language, the word [`kitsune`](http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E3%82%AD%E3%83%84%E3%83%8D) **literally just means &quot;a fox&quot;**. There's no difference between that and the fox as an animal. As this would imply, the *kitsune* are regarded as simply common foxes, though held to be naturally long lived and attributed with magical abilities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In contrast, the Chinese `hulijing` means **specifically a &quot;fox *spirit*&quot;**. They are no ordinary foxes, but instead the result of centuries or even millenia of [training](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C4%81dhan%C4%81). Some tales further describe them as engaging in powerleveling through essence-sucking intercourse with mortal humans à la western [succubi](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succubus) or [incubi](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incubus).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [*Classic of Mountains and Seas*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_of_Mountains_and_Seas) for instance mentions that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 有獸焉，其狀如狐而九尾，其音如嬰兒，能食人；食者不蠱。&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There is a beast, which is **shaped like a fox** but has nine tails, and sounds like a baby. It eats men; eating it wards off evil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which clearly shows that the fox spirit is considered distinct from normal foxes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another difference manifests in the worship of the two entities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In traditional Japanese folklore, the *kitsune* have an essential feature as messengers of the god of rice productivity and prosperity, the [`inari ōkami (稲荷大神)`](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inari_%C5%8Ckami).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Japan, however, the fox known as *kitsune* has since the eight century been enshrined and worshipped in a pervasive network of sacred associations in connection with Inari. The widespread cult portrays *kitsune* as a divine messenger of the rice god who promotes agrarian fertility as well as productivity and prosperity in a much broader sense.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Heine, Steven. Shifting Shape, Shaping Text: Philosophy and Folklore in the Fox Kōan. University of Hawaii Press, 1999.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The association had formed as early as the 8th century and remains extremely strong to this day. The kitsune continues to feature in tens of thousands of Inari shrines across Japan, as recipients of fried tofu and rubbing by sickly miracle-seekers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;A stone *kitsune* at the [Fushimi Inari Taisha](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fushimi_Inari-taisha), the chief shrine of the Inari god.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In contrast, in Chinese folklore fox spirits have a much more ambiguous standing. For instance [Ji Xiaolan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ji_Yun) in his *Notes of the Thatched Abode of Close Observations* that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 幽明異路，狐則在幽明之間。仙妖殊途，狐則在仙妖之間。&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dark and light are different, but foxes are between dark and light. Humans and objects are different, and foxes are between humasn [Hsien](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xian_(Taoism)) and [Yao](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaoguai) are different, but foxes are between the two.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unlike the worship of *kitsune* in major shrines as messengers of a rice god, the foxes of China were prayed to in private homes as one of a group of five animal spirits. Exact compositions vary, but these typically includes  weasels, snakes, hedgehogs and rats. Families would offer sacrifices in the hopes of receiving protection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no real evidence that the Chinese and Japanese versions share a common origin. Fox worship is ancient in Japan; the earliest documentation of fox folklores appeared in the late 8th century [`nihon ryōiki (日本霊異記)`](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihon_Ry%C5%8Diki), lit. *Chronicles of Supernatural Tales of Japan.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That is almost as early as the first written works of any kind in Japan, and reelates the tale of a fox assuming the form of a woman and marrying a human. The tale claims the incident to be the origin of the term *kitsune*, but that is almost certainly an invented etymology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 昔欽明天皇御世、三乃國大乃郡人應為妻、覓好孃乘路而行。時曠野中遇於姝女。其女媚壯、馴之壯睇之。言:「何行稚孃?」孃答:「將覓能緣而行女也。」壯亦語言:「成我妻耶?」女:「聽」答言、即將於家、交通相住。此頃懷任、生一男子。時其家犬、十二月十五日生子。彼犬之子每向家室、而期剋睚眥嘷吠。家室脅惶、告家長言:「此犬打殺。」雖然患告、而猶不殺。於二月三月之頃、設年米舂時、其家室於稻舂女等、將充間食入於碓屋。即彼犬將咋家室而追吠。即驚澡恐、成野干、登籠上而居。家長見、言:「汝與我之中子相生、故吾不忘汝。每來相寐。」故誦夫語而來寐。故名為岐都禰也。時彼妻著紅襴染裳、而窈窕裳襴引逝也。夫視去容、戀歌曰: 古比波未奈加我宇弊邇於知奴多万可支流波呂可邇美江天伊爾師古由惠邇。故其令相生子名、號岐都禰。亦、其子姓負、狐直也。是人、強力多有、走疾如鳥飛矣。三乃國狐直等根本是也。&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (very roughly) During the reign of [Kinmei Tennō](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Kinmei), a man was looking for a bride and met a pretty woman who was looking for a husband. They started sleeping together and produced a baby boy on December 15. Tthe family dog gave birth too and the puppy was aggressive towards the woman, chasing her. Frightened, she turned into a [`yakan`](http://sanskritdictionary.com/?q=%C5%9B%E1%B9%9Bg%C4%81la) and fled. The man saw and pled, &quot;You and I have a child together, I cannot forget you. Come (`kitsu`) back to sleep (`ne`) at least.&quot; She agreed. This is where the name `kitsune` comes from (...)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Either version of fox worship were later affected by the Indian version, which spread through both China and Japan by way of Buddhism. The nine tailed fox, for instance, was introduced to Japan in the form of an ancient fox spirit from Indian. It is said to have tried to overthrow an ancient Indian kingdom, and later became [Consort Daji](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daji) who helped brought about the Shang Dynasty's downfall. The spirit eventually made it to Japan, where nine-tails became a distinct spirit different from the usual *kitsune*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MBuQx.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/WNwL3.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Ptysq.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3086" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="608" RevisionGUID="1aa2e1bf-8314-444d-b6e4-56a35d8ae0fd" CreationDate="2015-05-09T07:27:29.697" UserDisplayName="user124" Comment="grammar in heading and body" Text="The Valkyries are female demigod warriors from the Norse mythology. They served Odin by choosing, among the warriors in a battle, who dies and who lives and from the ones who die, which ones go to Valhalla, to become Odin's Einherjar and wait in the Valhalla's hall for Ragnarok.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it explained how do the Valkyries choose among this warriors either who dies or which dead warriors go to Valhalla? For example, based on certain traits like courage or skill in battle." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3087" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="608" RevisionGUID="1aa2e1bf-8314-444d-b6e4-56a35d8ae0fd" CreationDate="2015-05-09T07:27:29.697" UserDisplayName="user124" Comment="grammar in heading and body" Text="How do the Valkyries choose among the warriors in a battle?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3088" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="608" RevisionGUID="1aa2e1bf-8314-444d-b6e4-56a35d8ae0fd" CreationDate="2015-05-09T07:27:29.697" Comment="Proposed by 124 approved by 111, 57 edit id of 177" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3089" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="610" RevisionGUID="9bc8daad-d78a-4415-9fcf-f31e5b216208" CreationDate="2015-05-09T08:24:39.697" UserId="57" Text="The [Neo-Hittite][1] Chimera (850–750 BC) from [Karkemish][2] is housed in the Museum of Anatolian Civilizations in Ankara, Turkey: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Neo-Hitte Chimera][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Museum_of_Anatolian_Civilizations080.jpg#/media/File:Museum_of_Anatolian_Civilizations080.jpg&quot;&gt;Museum of Anatolian Civilizations080&lt;/a&gt;&quot; by Georges Jansoone (&lt;a href=&quot;//commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:JoJan&quot; title=&quot;User:JoJan&quot;&gt;JoJan&lt;/a&gt;) - &lt;span class=&quot;int-own-work&quot;&gt;Self-photographed&lt;/span&gt;. Licensed under Public Domain via &lt;a href=&quot;//commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/&quot;&gt;Wikimedia Commons&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This chimera is presumably a precursor to the more well known [Greek chimera][4]. Do we know of any stories associated with it? Is it mentioned in Hittite mythology?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syro-Hittite_states&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carchemish&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/cORmZ.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_%28mythology%29" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3090" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="610" RevisionGUID="9bc8daad-d78a-4415-9fcf-f31e5b216208" CreationDate="2015-05-09T08:24:39.697" UserId="57" Text="What is the story of the Chimera?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3091" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="610" RevisionGUID="9bc8daad-d78a-4415-9fcf-f31e5b216208" CreationDate="2015-05-09T08:24:39.697" UserId="57" Text="|mythical-creatures|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3092" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="269" RevisionGUID="bda84536-bd02-4876-8247-02b1e8d41094" CreationDate="2015-05-09T10:33:07.977" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body" Text="The Norse mythological texts record three primary places where the dead were perceived to go: **Helheim** (Old Norse Helheimr, “the home of the goddess Hel“), **Valhalla** (Old Norse Valhöll, “the hall of the fallen”), and **Folkvang** (Old Norse Fólkvangr, “the field of the people” or “the field of warriors”).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But they're indistinguishable and don't have any major differences between them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Valhalla is presided over by Odin, and to gain entrance to it, one must be chosen by him and his valkyries, the “choosers of the fallen.” &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarily, entrance to Folkvang is dependent upon being selected by Freya.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Valhalla is often depicted as a realm where distinguished warriors engage in a continuous battle, and just such a place is described, in important early sources, as being located beneath the ground – and, intriguingly, without the name “Valhalla” or a cognate anywhere in the account.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sub&gt;source: Ellis, Hilda Roderick. 1968. The Road to Hel: A Study of the Conception of the Dead in Old Norse Literature. p. 85-86. &lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;14. Folkvang is the ninth, and there Freyia arranges&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;the choice of seats in the hall;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;half the slain she chooses every day,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;and half Odin owns.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sub&gt;source: 1996 Carolyne Larrington in The Poetic Edda “Grimnir’s Sayings”&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only difference that is pointed out, is in the way that the dead are chosen to stay. Odin chooses for Valhalla, while Freya chooses for Folkvang.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;source: [Norse-Mythology.org](http://norse-mythology.org/concepts/death-and-the-afterlife/)&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3102" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="269" RevisionGUID="c636e4bd-28ee-4690-88df-f1ba8145343c" CreationDate="2015-05-09T13:24:49.767" UserId="79" Comment="added 596 characters in body" Text="The Norse mythological texts record three primary places where the dead were perceived to go: **Helheim** (Old Norse Helheimr, “the home of the goddess Hel“), **Valhalla** (Old Norse Valhöll, “the hall of the fallen”), and **Folkvang** (Old Norse Fólkvangr, “the field of the people” or “the field of warriors”).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But they're indistinguishable and don't have any major differences between them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Valhalla is presided over by Odin, and to gain entrance to it, one must be chosen by him and his valkyries, the “choosers of the fallen.” &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarily, entrance to Folkvang is dependent upon being selected by Freya.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Valhalla is often depicted as a realm where distinguished warriors engage in a continuous battle, and just such a place is described, in important early sources, as being located beneath the ground – and, intriguingly, without the name “Valhalla” or a cognate anywhere in the account.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sub&gt;source: Ellis, Hilda Roderick. 1968. The Road to Hel: A Study of the Conception of the Dead in Old Norse Literature. p. 85-86. &lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;14. Folkvang is the ninth, and there Freyia arranges&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;the choice of seats in the hall;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;half the slain she chooses every day,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;and half Odin owns.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sub&gt;source: 1996 Carolyne Larrington in The Poetic Edda “Grimnir’s Sayings”&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only difference that is pointed out, is in the way that the dead are chosen to stay. Odin chooses for Valhalla, while Freya chooses for Folkvang.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Coming to the second part of the question:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;And why did the need to have many &quot;paradises&quot; (whatever you many call it) exist?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hel is a place where all humans have to go after their death:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;“For there is a time&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;when every man&lt;br&gt; shall journey hence to Hel.&quot;&lt;br&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Fáfnismál 10&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So before the dead finally reaches Hel, Odin and Freyja select the ones who are worthy of living in Valhalla and Folkvang. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Valhalla receives distinguished warriors.&#xD;&#xA; - Folkvangr receives the rest of the warriors.&#xD;&#xA; - Hel receives the rest of the dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;source: [Norse-Mythology.org](http://norse-mythology.org/concepts/death-and-the-afterlife/)&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3107" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="604" RevisionGUID="a0b72557-e2ac-4296-b32c-756af7a86225" CreationDate="2015-05-09T13:39:57.610" UserId="183" Comment="Found better evidence of Hymenaios than Wikipedia." Text="Cadmus and Harmonia may have been the first mortals to be married while Olympians watched, but they were not the only ones.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Peleus and Thetis**](http://www.mythindex.com/greek-mythology/P/Peleus.html) were married on Mount Pelion. Thetis was, according to some stories, immortal, but Peleus himself was mortal.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While on mount Pelion, Peleus married the Nereid Thetis, by whom he became the father of Achilles, though some regarded this Thetis as different from the marine divinity, and called her a daughter of Cheiron. (Apollon. Rhod. i. 558; comp. THETIS.) The gods took part in the marriage solemnity, and Cheiron presented Peleus with a lance (Hom. Il. xvi. 143, xxiv. 61, &amp;c., which, however, according to Pindar, Nem. iii. 56, Peleus made for himself), Poseidon with the immortal horses, Balius and Xanthus, and the other gods with arms. (Apollod. iii. 13. § 5; Horn. Il. xvi. 381, xvii. 443, xviii. 84.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eris was not invited, however, and [began the Trojan War](http://web.stanford.edu/~plomio/history.html).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Additionally, [Hymenaios](http://www.theoi.com/Ouranios/ErosHymenaios.html) was supposed to attend every wedding, being the wedding god himself." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3108" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="613" RevisionGUID="ecab26e8-7c25-47b5-a05a-9767e028a8f2" CreationDate="2015-05-09T13:44:06.097" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="This isn't about politics; Mukiti is a nature spirit (or whatever the analogous term is in Nyanga folklore) who took Iyangura away from the ordinary world and doesn't want her to go back.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first piece of evidence is that Mukiti is a somewhat supernatural snake (I didn't mention this in the question because I didn't understand the implications):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Close to the village of Shemwindo [Mwindo's father] there was a river in which there was a pool, and in this pool there was a water serpent, master of the unfathomable. In his dwelling place, in the pool, Mukiti heard the news that downstream from him there was a chief who had a sister called Iyangura.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(all quotes are from *A Treasury of African Folklore*, the same source of the quotes in the question.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second piece of evidence is that once Mukiti marries Iyangura, he traps her in his village while he returns to his supernatural pool. This has nothing to do with Mwindo, who isn't even born yet:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Mukiti] made a proclamation  saying &quot;You, all my people, if one day you see a man going downstream, then you will tear out his spinal column, you Banamaka, Banabirurmba, Banankomo, Banatubusa, and Banampongo; however, this path here which follows the flow of the river, it is the great path on which all people pass.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; After he had passed this interdiction regarding these two paths, and while in his village there lives his Shemwami called Kasiyembe, Mukiti told his big headman Kasiyembe: &quot;You, go to dwell with my wife Iyangura at the borders of the pool; and I Mukiti shall from now on always reside here where all the dry leaves collect in flowing down, where all the fallen tree trunks are obstructed in the middle of the pool.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am still confused by the order about the &quot;path... which follows the flow of the river,&quot; but the rest seems clear to me. Mukiti has taken Iyangura to the edge of a supernatural pool, where he will live. He doesn't want anyone to take her from the supernatural world, so he has her live with his headman and instructs his subjects to stop people from approaching the village. I find it extraordinarily relevant that the pool is described as the place &quot;where all the dry leaves collect in flowing down&quot;: to me, it suggests that Mukiti and the pool are supernatural and exist at the center of the spiritual universe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here are some quotes where Mwindo sings about how he will defeat Mukiti:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For Mukiti shall I get out of my way?  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; You see I am going to encounter Iyangura,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Iyangury, sister of Shemwindo.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mukiti, you are powerless against Mwindo.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mwindo is the Little-one-just-born-he-walked.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is an interesting story, but unfortunately the book I'm reading it from cuts the story off shortly after Mwindo meets his aunt. I'm going to have to get the full story from somewhere (the book I'm reading excerpts it from *The Mwindo Epic*, translated and edited by Daniel Biebuyck and Kohombo Mateene)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3109" PostHistoryTypeId="8" PostId="608" RevisionGUID="e1b594b4-b4e8-4ccb-a450-3214ca467567" CreationDate="2015-05-09T13:48:16.673" UserId="171" Comment="Rollback to [e7669a71-06e8-45b3-928e-82dce7a44636]" Text="The valkyries are female demigod warriors from the Norse mythology. They served Odin by choosing, among the warriors in a battle, who dies and who lives and from the ones who die which ones go to Valhalla, to become Odin's einherjar and wait in the Valhalla's hall for Ragnarok.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it explain how do the valkyries choose among this warriors either who dies or which dead warriors go to Valhalla? For example, based on certain traits like courage or skill in battle." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3110" PostHistoryTypeId="7" PostId="608" RevisionGUID="e1b594b4-b4e8-4ccb-a450-3214ca467567" CreationDate="2015-05-09T13:48:16.673" UserId="171" Comment="Rollback to [e7669a71-06e8-45b3-928e-82dce7a44636]" Text="How do the valkyries choose among the warriors in a battle?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3111" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="608" RevisionGUID="cdcf4478-34c7-4eeb-85ae-a7712d9922f1" CreationDate="2015-05-09T13:48:29.943" UserId="171" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="The valkyries are female demigod warriors from the Norse mythology. They served Odin by choosing, among the warriors in a battle, who dies and who lives and from the ones who die which ones go to Valhalla, to become Odin's einherjar and wait in the Valhalla's hall for Ragnarok.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it explained how do the valkyries choose among this warriors either who dies or which dead warriors go to Valhalla? For example, based on certain traits like courage or skill in battle." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3112" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="269" RevisionGUID="7637674b-5138-44c9-8767-1da272edfd05" CreationDate="2015-05-09T13:49:34.690" UserId="29" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body" Text="The Norse mythological texts record three primary places where the dead were perceived to go: **Helheim** (Old Norse Helheimr, “the home of the goddess Hel“), **Valhalla** (Old Norse Valhöll, “the hall of the fallen”), and **Folkvang** (Old Norse Fólkvangr, “the field of the people” or “the field of warriors”).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But they're indistinguishable and don't have any major differences between them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Valhalla is presided over by Odin, and to gain entrance to it, one must be chosen by him and his valkyries, the “choosers of the fallen.” &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarily, entrance to Folkvang is dependent upon being selected by Freya.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Valhalla is often depicted as a realm where distinguished warriors engage in a continuous battle, and just such a place is described, in important early sources, as being located beneath the ground – and, intriguingly, without the name “Valhalla” or a cognate anywhere in the account.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sub&gt;source: Ellis, Hilda Roderick. 1968. The Road to Hel: A Study of the Conception of the Dead in Old Norse Literature. p. 85-86. &lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;14. Folkvang is the ninth, and there Freyia arranges&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;the choice of seats in the hall;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;half the slain she chooses every day,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;and half Odin owns.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sub&gt;source: 1996 Carolyne Larrington in The Poetic Edda “Grimnir’s Sayings”&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only difference that is pointed out, is in the way that the dead are chosen to stay. Odin chooses for Valhalla, while Freya chooses for Folkvang.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Coming to the second part of the question:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;And why did the need to have many &quot;paradises&quot; (whatever you many call it) exist?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hel is a place where all humans have to go after their death:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;“For there is a time&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;when every man&lt;br&gt; shall journey hence to Hel.&quot;&lt;br&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Fáfnismál 10&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So before the dead finally reach Hel, Odin and Freyja select the ones who are worthy of living in Valhalla and Folkvang. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Valhalla receives distinguished warriors.&#xD;&#xA; - Folkvangr receives the rest of the warriors.&#xD;&#xA; - Hel receives the rest of the dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;source: [Norse-Mythology.org](http://norse-mythology.org/concepts/death-and-the-afterlife/)&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3113" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="374" RevisionGUID="12420d54-f1ba-4d77-9bba-45e6a28cf707" CreationDate="2015-05-09T14:00:08.637" UserId="183" Comment="Reorganization for some clarity." Text="[Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charon%27s_obol) actually has an interesting interpretation:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Attempts to explain the symbolism of the rite also must negotiate the illogical placement of the coin in the mouth. The Latin term *viaticum* makes sense of Charon’s obol as “sustenance for the journey,” and it has been suggested that coins replaced offerings of food for the dead in Roman tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This dichotomy of food for the living and gold for the dead is a theme in the myth of King Midas, versions of which draw on elements of the Dionysian mysteries. The Phrygian king's famous &quot;golden touch&quot; was a divine gift from Dionysus, but its acceptance separated him from the human world of nourishment and reproduction: both his food and his daughter were transformed by contact with him into immutable, unreciprocal gold. In some versions of the myth, Midas's hard-won insight into the meaning of life and the limitations of earthly wealth is accompanied by conversion to the cult of Dionysus. Having learned his lessons as an initiate into the mysteries, and after ritual immersion in the river Pactolus, Midas forsakes the “bogus eternity” of gold for spiritual rebirth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia also says,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Latin, Charon's obol sometimes is called a viaticum, or &quot;sustenance for the journey&quot;; the placement of the coin on the mouth has been explained also as a seal to protect the deceased's soul or to prevent it from returning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The basis for these interpretations are analyses of Latin writers; the theories stem from, among others, &quot;Charon's Obol&quot; by Susan T. Stevens (see below), *Money and the Early Greek Mind: Homer, Philosophy, Tragedy*, by Richard Seaford, and *Modern Greek Folklore and Ancient Greek Religion*, by John Cuthbert Lawson. The above quotes are condensations of their work as historians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I may be reading too much into this, but [*The Golden Ass*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Ass), by Apuleius, [contains this passage](http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Kharon.html) (emphasis mine):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (So even among the dead, greed enjoys its life; even that great god Charon, who gathers taxes for Dis [Haides], does not do anything for nothing. A poor man on the point of death must find his fare, and **no one will let him breathe his last until he has his copper ready.**) You must allow this squalid elder to take for your fare one of the coins you are to carry, but he must remove it form your mouth with his own hand.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This seems to support the idea that the coin sealed a dead person's mouth, but it could be merely a complete coincidence; &quot;breathe his last&quot; could be used in place of &quot;die&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[*Charon's Obol and Other Coins in Ancient Funerary Practice*, by Susan T. Stevens](http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1088792?uid=2134&amp;uid=391386161&amp;uid=3739808&amp;uid=2&amp;uid=391386151&amp;uid=70&amp;uid=3&amp;uid=3739256&amp;uid=60&amp;purchase-type=article&amp;accessType=none&amp;sid=21106252287221&amp;showMyJstorPss=false&amp;seq=6&amp;showAccess=false), gives evidence to support the *viaticum*-coin-as-sustenance theory, citing Apuleis's usage but as food, not breath. She does mention that other &quot;Latin authors&quot; (unspecified) wrote that the coin was used to seal the mouth to prevent the soul from escaping.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The two main theories, therefore, are&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Coins provide &quot;sustenance&quot; for the journey, like food, and so are placed on the mouth.&#xD;&#xA; - Coins seal the mouth, which is the only opening from which a soul could escape. This could also be symbolic, e.g. representing the fact that the dead cannot talk." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3114" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="10" RevisionGUID="a98ddf07-dce4-4d83-b31e-52b439e87d77" CreationDate="2015-05-09T14:15:09.110" UserId="29" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|valhalla|folkvang|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3117" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10" RevisionGUID="1bdbdd48-9424-46c5-8d84-e575450551f3" CreationDate="2015-05-09T17:06:14.220" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 14 characters in body; edited tags" Text="I have read numerous times that some Norse warriors, upon death, would go in Fólkvangr, while some others would go to Valhalla. How was it decided which warrior would go to which place? Why did the need to have many &quot;paradises&quot; (whatever you many call it) exist?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Citing [Wikipedia][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Norse mythology, Fólkvangr (Old Norse &quot;field of the host&quot; or &quot;people-field&quot; or &quot;army-field&quot;) is a meadow or field ruled over by the goddess Freyja where half of those that die in combat go upon death, while the other half go to the god Odin in Valhalla.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%B3lkvangr" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3118" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="10" RevisionGUID="1bdbdd48-9424-46c5-8d84-e575450551f3" CreationDate="2015-05-09T17:06:14.220" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 14 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|norse|valhalla|folkvangr|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3119" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="371" RevisionGUID="54f1ade4-b37e-4e41-888c-58e165420648" CreationDate="2015-05-09T17:09:37.153" UserId="183" Comment="We already have a &quot;christianity&quot; tag." Text="In Judeo-Christian traditions, [Heaven](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven) is defended by an army of good angels known as the [Heavenly Host](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavenly_host). For example, Christian mythology from the [Book of Revelation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation) states that the Heavenly Host will take part in the [War in Heaven](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Heaven) and defeat the army of Satan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does God Himself command the Heavenly Host in combat? Or does God delegate the responsibility to an angelic commander? [Revelation 12](http://bible.org/netbible/index.htm?rev12.htm) says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 12:7 Then war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which seems to suggest that [Michael](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_%28archangel%29) is in command for at least that conflict. Is that the typical situation? Why doesn't God command his side in the war?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3120" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="371" RevisionGUID="54f1ade4-b37e-4e41-888c-58e165420648" CreationDate="2015-05-09T17:09:37.153" UserId="183" Comment="We already have a &quot;christianity&quot; tag." Text="|christianity|judeo-christian|angels|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3121" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="614" RevisionGUID="bc77fd32-df30-4feb-baae-f412afcb814d" CreationDate="2015-05-09T17:11:24.370" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3122" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="615" RevisionGUID="55c83d0c-a31c-416a-b6e3-b18dc6bc1272" CreationDate="2015-05-09T17:11:24.370" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3123" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="616" RevisionGUID="f32784d8-948f-416c-a760-fe51fce0df7c" CreationDate="2015-05-09T17:12:06.970" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3124" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="617" RevisionGUID="d7e0bbc9-b229-4d98-98a5-e51dbfcbb032" CreationDate="2015-05-09T17:12:06.970" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3127" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="615" RevisionGUID="d0fbd87a-7703-48d1-bf6f-9fca58ca04f4" CreationDate="2015-05-09T18:09:37.313" UserId="183" Comment="added 69 characters in body" Text="For questions about the impact of names and languages upon mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3128" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="615" RevisionGUID="d0fbd87a-7703-48d1-bf6f-9fca58ca04f4" CreationDate="2015-05-09T18:09:37.313" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 29, 62 edit id of 178" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3129" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="617" RevisionGUID="da35c14f-864a-4e23-95d4-6ecfe308981d" CreationDate="2015-05-09T18:09:43.363" UserId="183" Comment="added 105 characters in body" Text="For questions about the names of people, creatures, deities and beings, and how they influence mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3130" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="617" RevisionGUID="da35c14f-864a-4e23-95d4-6ecfe308981d" CreationDate="2015-05-09T18:09:43.363" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 29, 62 edit id of 179" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3131" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="603" RevisionGUID="f4e59635-3f05-49a3-81a3-fdec5e01cc2e" CreationDate="2015-05-09T18:36:21.433" UserId="11" Comment="Added the question to the question." Text="Cadmus married Harmonia.  Their wedding was the first between mortals that was ever attended by Olympians, whose favor ensured Cadmus a long and successful reign.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was Cadmus the only mortal whose wedding was attended by Olympians?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3132" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="603" RevisionGUID="f4e59635-3f05-49a3-81a3-fdec5e01cc2e" CreationDate="2015-05-09T18:36:21.433" UserId="11" Comment="Added the question to the question." Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3133" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="27" RevisionGUID="44ca32d7-275d-4d3d-a229-5ea42c27fa7a" CreationDate="2015-05-09T18:57:27.617" UserId="11" Comment="Retagged because of new policies" Text="|norse|comparative|judeo-christian|linguistics|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3134" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="618" RevisionGUID="e5411eea-8d40-4e79-96b2-739b930ae438" CreationDate="2015-05-09T19:33:19.093" UserId="87" Text="I'm thinking specifically of the [viral news stories](https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&amp;rct=j&amp;q=&amp;esrc=s&amp;source=web&amp;cd=7&amp;cad=rja&amp;uact=8&amp;ved=0CEcQFjAG&amp;url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fnewstopics%2Fhowaboutthat%2F8635624%2FPastafarian-wins-religious-freedom-right-to-wear-pasta-strainer-for-driving-licence.html&amp;ei=Tl5OVbGlI8uz7gb_4oHoBw&amp;usg=AFQjCNF2BtDX7nzSTu8MnpQ07Aa_oEcAQw&amp;sig2=ctE_sDbHOP2T8FtzoOwNhQ&amp;bvm=bv.92885102,d.ZGU) about various Pastafarians being allowed to wear a spaghetti strainer as religious headgear at work or in a driver's license photo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Many religious outfits or articles of clothing have a stated purpose or even a whole story behind them, so I was wondering if Pastafarians have any stories about holy strainers (or other articles of unconventional clothing)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3135" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="618" RevisionGUID="e5411eea-8d40-4e79-96b2-739b930ae438" CreationDate="2015-05-09T19:33:19.093" UserId="87" Text="Are there Pastafarian myths which explain their religious attire?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3136" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="618" RevisionGUID="e5411eea-8d40-4e79-96b2-739b930ae438" CreationDate="2015-05-09T19:33:19.093" UserId="87" Text="|myth-identification|pastafarianism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3137" PostHistoryTypeId="12" PostId="618" RevisionGUID="ff4aabd8-575c-445e-997e-38dd6ee6d5cd" CreationDate="2015-05-09T19:33:23.890" UserId="87" Comment="via Vote" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:87,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ixrec&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="3138" PostHistoryTypeId="13" PostId="618" RevisionGUID="ba8978b9-acfa-466a-bb69-94e7f5585b83" CreationDate="2015-05-09T19:33:37.650" UserId="87" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:87,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ixrec&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="3139" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="619" RevisionGUID="634b34ca-7e4d-4b36-8f68-9774227fdb0f" CreationDate="2015-05-09T19:53:54.217" UserId="87" Text="Strangely, the Pastafarian mythos doesn't seem to support the notion of strainers as religious headgear. The most prominent mention is the colander in the flood myth:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He produced a great Colander of Goodness and He did collect water in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; an enormous pot, which He heated; and He did drop in a heaping portion&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of pasta and slowly simmer the sauce for so long that the original&#xD;&#xA;&gt; human weren't even around anymore when He was finally ready to eat.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And He poured the spaghetti and water into the Colander of Goodness,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; careful to make sure that the water went down the drain of His sink.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And as He was eating, He vacantly considered where the drain did&#xD;&#xA;&gt; empty, and the FSM said, &quot;Uh oh.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster](http://www.klps.pl/pliki/gospel_fsm_eng.pdf) - The Flood&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And no part of this story implies that wearing the great colander would be a particularly good thing. Since even the Loose Canon has no explanation for this, it seems as though strainers are worn by Pastafarians solely because they're pasta-related and hemispherical.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there is a completely different kind of outfit that the mythos is extremely supportive of: **Pirate regalia**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ... it is disrespectful to teach our beliefs without wearing His&#xD;&#xA;&gt; chosen outfit, which, of course, is full Pirate regalia.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster](http://www.klps.pl/pliki/gospel_fsm_eng.pdf) - Pamphlets &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no single reason why pirate regalia has this status, but the Gospel has a **lot** to say about pirates in general. Here are a few examples:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pirates, as you know, are His Chosen People. Yet their numbers have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; been shrinking ever since the 1800s. Consequently, we find that global&#xD;&#xA;&gt; warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters are a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; direct result of the shrinking number of Pirates.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster](http://www.klps.pl/pliki/gospel_fsm_eng.pdf) - The Spaghedeity&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ... we were created in His ideal image: that of the Pirate. Since then&#xD;&#xA;we've only come to resemble other people's gods. ... It is important that we return to the ways of the Pirate before it's too&#xD;&#xA;late. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster](http://www.klps.pl/pliki/gospel_fsm_eng.pdf) - Unified Spaghetti Cheory&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3140" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="609" RevisionGUID="83a9021a-6299-4f80-839a-179c07c717ca" CreationDate="2015-05-09T19:56:32.487" UserId="108" Comment="added 718 characters in body" Text="They are not really the same. In fact, they are ***not*** both fox spirits with ***nine tails*.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here][1]![enter image description here][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;**Left:** A nine-tailed fox depicted in the ancient Chinese bestiary [*Classic of Mountains and Seas* `(山海經)`](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_of_Mountains_and_Seas) | **Right:** A distinctly single tailed *kitsune* depicted in the Japanese almanac `kin mou zui (訓蒙図彙)`&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The fox spirits of later Chinese traditions do not necessarily have nine tails, either. Similarly, Japan later imported the Chinese nine-tailed fox, but it found a place in Japanese folklore as a distinct entity separate from the traditional *kitsune*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although they share notable similarities, such as transformation and betwitching humans, the Japanese *kitsune* and the Chinese *hulijing* actually have fundamental differences.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Japanese language, the word [`kitsune`](http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E3%82%AD%E3%83%84%E3%83%8D) **literally just means &quot;a fox&quot;**. There's no difference between that and the fox as an animal. As this would imply, the *kitsune* are regarded as simply common foxes, though held to be naturally long lived and attributed with magical abilities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In contrast, the Chinese `hulijing` means **specifically a &quot;fox *spirit*&quot;**. They are no ordinary foxes, but instead the result of centuries or even millenia of [training](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C4%81dhan%C4%81). Some tales further describe them as engaging in powerleveling through essence-sucking intercourse with mortal humans à la western [succubi](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succubus) or [incubi](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incubus).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [*Classic of Mountains and Seas*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_of_Mountains_and_Seas) for instance mentions that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 有獸焉，其狀如狐而九尾，其音如嬰兒，能食人；食者不蠱。&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There is a beast, which is **shaped like a fox** but has nine tails, and sounds like a baby. It eats men; eating it wards off evil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which clearly shows that the fox spirit is considered distinct from normal foxes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also a host of minor differences, such as the *kitsune*'s reputed love for fried tofu versus the *hulijing*'s preference for eggs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another major difference exists in the worship of the two entities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In traditional Japanese folklore, the *kitsune* have an essential feature as messengers of the god of rice productivity and prosperity, the [`inari ōkami (稲荷大神)`](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inari_%C5%8Ckami).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Japan, however, the fox known as *kitsune* has since the eight century been enshrined and worshipped in a pervasive network of sacred associations in connection with Inari. The widespread cult portrays *kitsune* as a divine messenger of the rice god who promotes agrarian fertility as well as productivity and prosperity in a much broader sense.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Heine, Steven. Shifting Shape, Shaping Text: Philosophy and Folklore in the Fox Kōan. University of Hawaii Press, 1999.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The association had formed as early as the 8th century and remains extremely strong to this day. The kitsune continues to feature in tens of thousands of Inari shrines across Japan, as recipients of fried tofu and rubbing by sickly miracle-seekers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;A stone *kitsune* at the [Fushimi Inari Taisha](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fushimi_Inari-taisha), the chief shrine of the Inari god.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In contrast, in Chinese folklore fox spirits have a much more ambiguous standing. For instance [Ji Xiaolan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ji_Yun) in his *Notes of the Thatched Abode of Close Observations* that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 幽明異路，狐則在幽明之間。仙妖殊途，狐則在仙妖之間。&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dark and light are different, but foxes are between dark and light. Humans and objects are different, and foxes are between humasn [Hsien](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xian_(Taoism)) and [Yao](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaoguai) are different, but foxes are between the two.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unlike the worship of *kitsune* in major shrines as messengers of a rice god, the foxes of China were prayed to in private homes as one of a group of five animal spirits. Exact compositions vary, but these typically includes  weasels, snakes, hedgehogs and rats. Families would offer sacrifices in the hopes of receiving protection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no real evidence that the Chinese and Japanese versions share a common origin. Fox worship is ancient in Japan; the earliest documentation of fox folklores appeared in the late 8th century [`nihon ryōiki (日本霊異記)`](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihon_Ry%C5%8Diki), lit. *Chronicles of Supernatural Tales of Japan.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That is almost as early as the first written works of any kind in Japan, and reelates the tale of a fox assuming the form of a woman and marrying a human. The tale claims the incident to be the origin of the term *kitsune*, but that is almost certainly an invented etymology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 昔欽明天皇御世、三乃國大乃郡人應為妻、覓好孃乘路而行。時曠野中遇於姝女。其女媚壯、馴之壯睇之。言:「何行稚孃?」孃答:「將覓能緣而行女也。」壯亦語言:「成我妻耶?」女:「聽」答言、即將於家、交通相住。此頃懷任、生一男子。時其家犬、十二月十五日生子。彼犬之子每向家室、而期剋睚眥嘷吠。家室脅惶、告家長言:「此犬打殺。」雖然患告、而猶不殺。於二月三月之頃、設年米舂時、其家室於稻舂女等、將充間食入於碓屋。即彼犬將咋家室而追吠。即驚澡恐、成野干、登籠上而居。家長見、言:「汝與我之中子相生、故吾不忘汝。每來相寐。」故誦夫語而來寐。故名為岐都禰也。時彼妻著紅襴染裳、而窈窕裳襴引逝也。夫視去容、戀歌曰: 古比波未奈加我宇弊邇於知奴多万可支流波呂可邇美江天伊爾師古由惠邇。故其令相生子名、號岐都禰。亦、其子姓負、狐直也。是人、強力多有、走疾如鳥飛矣。三乃國狐直等根本是也。&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (very roughly) During the reign of [Kinmei Tennō](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Kinmei), a man was looking for a bride and met a pretty woman who was looking for a husband. They started sleeping together and produced a baby boy on December 15. Tthe family dog gave birth too and the puppy was aggressive towards the woman, chasing her. Frightened, she turned into a [`yakan`](http://sanskritdictionary.com/?q=%C5%9B%E1%B9%9Bg%C4%81la) and fled. The man saw and pled, &quot;You and I have a child together, I cannot forget you. Come (`kitsu`) back to sleep (`ne`) at least.&quot; She agreed. This is where the name `kitsune` comes from (...)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Japanese *kitsune* ultimately absorbed elements, particularly of malice, from the Chinese *hulijing*. Both traditions were further affected by the Indian version, which spread through both China and Japan by way of Buddhism. The Buddhist spirit [ḍākinī](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakini) for example was syncretised with native Inari worship to become a fox spirit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The nine tailed fox, additionally, was introduced to Japan both as a general concept as well as a specific ancient fox spirit from India. It is said to have tried to overthrow an ancient Indian kingdom, and later brought about the Shang Dynasty's downfall as [Consort Daji](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daji). The spirit eventually made it to Japan and became [Tamamo-no-Mae](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamamo-no-Mae) before being exposed and vanquished.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;The Nine-Tailed Fox terrorising Indian Prince Hanzoku, by 19th century painter [Utagawa Kuniyoshi](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utagawa_Kuniyoshi)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MBuQx.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/WNwL3.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Ptysq.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/16Qi0.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3141" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="619" RevisionGUID="f1eaef43-468c-42b3-9f78-268418c167fe" CreationDate="2015-05-09T19:59:14.310" UserId="87" Comment="added 90 characters in body" Text="Strangely, the Pastafarian mythos doesn't seem to support the notion of strainers as religious headgear. The most prominent mention is the colander in the flood myth:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He produced a great Colander of Goodness and He did collect water in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; an enormous pot, which He heated; and He did drop in a heaping portion&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of pasta and slowly simmer the sauce for so long that the original&#xD;&#xA;&gt; human weren't even around anymore when He was finally ready to eat.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And He poured the spaghetti and water into the Colander of Goodness,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; careful to make sure that the water went down the drain of His sink.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And as He was eating, He vacantly considered where the drain did&#xD;&#xA;&gt; empty, and the FSM said, &quot;Uh oh.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster](http://www.klps.pl/pliki/gospel_fsm_eng.pdf) - The Flood&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And no part of this story implies that wearing the great colander would be a particularly good thing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even the Loose Canon only has no more than a passing mention of someone wearing a &quot;Holy Colander&quot; and one Pastalm mentioning a strainer. So, it seems as though strainers are worn by Pastafarians solely because they're pasta-related and hemispherical.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there is a completely different kind of outfit that the mythos is extremely supportive of: **Pirate regalia**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ... it is disrespectful to teach our beliefs without wearing His&#xD;&#xA;&gt; chosen outfit, which, of course, is full Pirate regalia.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster](http://www.klps.pl/pliki/gospel_fsm_eng.pdf) - Pamphlets &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no single reason why pirate regalia has this status, but the Gospel has a **lot** to say about pirates in general. Here are a few memorable examples:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pirates, as you know, are His Chosen People. Yet their numbers have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; been shrinking ever since the 1800s. Consequently, we find that global&#xD;&#xA;&gt; warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters are a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; direct result of the shrinking number of Pirates.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster](http://www.klps.pl/pliki/gospel_fsm_eng.pdf) - The Spaghedeity&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ... we were created in His ideal image: that of the Pirate. Since then&#xD;&#xA;we've only come to resemble other people's gods. ... It is important that we return to the ways of the Pirate before it's too&#xD;&#xA;late. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster](http://www.klps.pl/pliki/gospel_fsm_eng.pdf) - Unified Spaghetti Cheory&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3142" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="619" RevisionGUID="b1838901-bc59-4e41-85e6-a05b9ab44de3" CreationDate="2015-05-09T20:05:09.777" UserId="87" Comment="added 90 characters in body" Text="Strangely, the Pastafarian mythos doesn't seem to support the notion of strainers as religious headgear. The most prominent mention is the colander in the flood myth:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He produced a great Colander of Goodness and He did collect water in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; an enormous pot, which He heated; and He did drop in a heaping portion&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of pasta and slowly simmer the sauce for so long that the original&#xD;&#xA;&gt; human weren't even around anymore when He was finally ready to eat.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And He poured the spaghetti and water into the Colander of Goodness,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; careful to make sure that the water went down the drain of His sink.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And as He was eating, He vacantly considered where the drain did&#xD;&#xA;&gt; empty, and the FSM said, &quot;Uh oh.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster](http://www.klps.pl/pliki/gospel_fsm_eng.pdf) - The Flood&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And no part of this story implies that wearing the great colander would be a particularly good thing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even the [Loose Canon](http://www.loose-canon.info/Loose-Canon-1st-Ed.pdf) has no more than a passing mention of someone wearing a &quot;Holy Colander&quot; and one Pastalm mentioning a strainer. So, it seems as though strainers are worn by Pastafarians solely because they're pasta-related and hemispherical.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there is a completely different kind of outfit that the mythos is extremely supportive of: **Pirate regalia**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ... it is disrespectful to teach our beliefs without wearing His&#xD;&#xA;&gt; chosen outfit, which, of course, is full Pirate regalia.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster](http://www.klps.pl/pliki/gospel_fsm_eng.pdf) - Pamphlets &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no single reason why pirate regalia has this status, but the Gospel has a **lot** to say about pirates in general. Here are a few memorable examples:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pirates, as you know, are His Chosen People. Yet their numbers have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; been shrinking ever since the 1800s. Consequently, we find that global&#xD;&#xA;&gt; warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters are a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; direct result of the shrinking number of Pirates.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster](http://www.klps.pl/pliki/gospel_fsm_eng.pdf) - The Spaghedeity&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ... we were created in His ideal image: that of the Pirate. Since then&#xD;&#xA;we've only come to resemble other people's gods. ... It is important that we return to the ways of the Pirate before it's too&#xD;&#xA;late. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster](http://www.klps.pl/pliki/gospel_fsm_eng.pdf) - Unified Spaghetti Cheory&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3143" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="620" RevisionGUID="19f08865-643e-4169-b13b-eddfa70e1b8c" CreationDate="2015-05-09T20:22:34.820" UserId="183" Text="I found [an interesting site](http://www.behindthename.com/) for comparing names. I can't trace the exact source(s) used for all four names, but the [references](http://www.behindthename.com/info/references) given for the entire site may prove useful (and impossible to scroll through, admittedly).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **[Adam:](http://www.behindthename.com/name/adam)** Originally from the Hebrew אדם, &quot;'adam&quot;, meaning &quot;man&quot;.&#xD;&#xA; - **[Eve:](http://www.behindthename.com/name/eve)** Originally from the Hebrew חַוָּה, &quot;chawwah&quot;, derived from חוה,&quot;chawah&quot;, meaning &quot;to breathe&quot;, or חיה, &quot;chayah&quot;, meaning &quot;to live&quot;.&#xD;&#xA; - **[Ask:](http://www.behindthename.com/name/ask)** Originally from the Old Norse &quot;askr&quot;, meaning &quot;ash tree&quot;.&#xD;&#xA; - **[Embla:](http://www.behindthename.com/name/embla)** Originally from the Old Norse &quot;almr&quot;, meaning &quot;elm&quot;. The origin of &quot;Embla&quot; is less certain; other scholars give it as [&quot;water pot&quot;](http://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/others/ask-and-embla/).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Old Norse](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Norse) is, at heart, an [Indo-European language](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages). [Hebrew](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language), on the other hand, is an [Afro-Asiatic language](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afroasiatic_languages). Given that these two families are extremely different, it appears that their last common ancestral language would have to be millennia ago. Old Norse dates back less than 1,000 years ago, while Hebrew, from its earliest forms, is about 3,000 years old.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There seems to be no connection." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3144" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="621" RevisionGUID="a3571c12-b96d-41ef-8b07-2cfe1a430dea" CreationDate="2015-05-09T21:21:31.950" UserId="42" Text="In Wolkstein and Kramer's telling of &quot;Inanna and the God of Wisdom&quot; (ISBN 978-0060908546)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Inanna placed the *shugurra*, the crown of the steppe, on her head.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; She went to the sheepfold, to the shepard.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; She leaned back against the apple tree.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When she leaned against the apple tree, her vulva was wonderous to behold.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Rejoicing at her wounderous vulva, the young woman Inanna applauded herself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Full text [is available here](http://one-heaven.org/sacred_texts/book/Inanna_and_the_God_of_Wisdom/c/1.html)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She then proceeds to visit Enki, the God of Wisdom, and receives the *me*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why does Inanna admire her vulva in this passage, and why does this prompt her to visit Enki?  What does this symbolize?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3145" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="621" RevisionGUID="a3571c12-b96d-41ef-8b07-2cfe1a430dea" CreationDate="2015-05-09T21:21:31.950" UserId="42" Text="Why does Inanna rejoice at her wondrous vulva?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3146" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="621" RevisionGUID="a3571c12-b96d-41ef-8b07-2cfe1a430dea" CreationDate="2015-05-09T21:21:31.950" UserId="42" Text="|sumerian|inanna|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3147" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="621" RevisionGUID="e42f5600-9e45-4510-a8a7-6f71f0a1cc34" CreationDate="2015-05-09T21:27:33.427" UserId="42" Comment="deleted 8 characters in body" Text="In Wolkstein and Kramer's telling of &quot;Inanna and the God of Wisdom&quot; (ISBN 978-0060908546)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Inanna placed the *shugurra*, the crown of the steppe, on her head.  &#xD;&#xA;She went to the sheepfold, to the shepard.  &#xD;&#xA;She leaned back against the apple tree.  &#xD;&#xA;When she leaned against the apple tree, her vulva was wonderous to behold.  &#xD;&#xA;Rejoicing at her wounderous vulva, the young woman Inanna applauded herself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Full text [is available here](http://one-heaven.org/sacred_texts/book/Inanna_and_the_God_of_Wisdom/c/1.html)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She then proceeds to visit Enki, the God of Wisdom, and receives the *me*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why does Inanna admire her vulva in this passage, and why does this prompt her to visit Enki?  What does this symbolize?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3152" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="547" RevisionGUID="afbb94e8-ef4e-4510-ab95-b6cc81661df7" CreationDate="2015-05-09T22:39:30.553" UserId="42" Comment="deleted 19 characters in body" Text="They exist in the mythology of Sumeria:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;...[are the Sumerian deities][1] of the old primordial line; they are chthonic deities of fertility, associated eventually with the underworld, where they became judges. They take their name from the old sky god An (Anu).&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; .........&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Anunnaki appear in the Babylonian creation myth, Enuma Elish&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; .......&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Anunnaki are mentioned in The Epic of Gilgamesh when Utnapishtim tells the story of the flood. The seven judges of hell are called the Anunna&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anunnaki" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3155" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="608" RevisionGUID="32c9f115-3164-416d-8873-40bba07c35e6" CreationDate="2015-05-10T01:52:58.957" UserId="-1" Comment="101" Text="{&quot;OriginalQuestionIds&quot;:[10],&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:11,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;durron597&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:86,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;meneldal&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;,&quot;BindingReason&quot;:{&quot;DuplicateApprovedByAsker&quot;:&quot;&quot;}}]}" />
  <row Id="3156" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="622" RevisionGUID="6741cf56-fb46-47f3-acf3-4d7d8923eb11" CreationDate="2015-05-10T04:38:28.847" UserId="139" Text="&lt;h3&gt;Similar question&lt;/h3&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[Why is 12 such a holy number?][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/257/why-is-12-such-a-holy-number/273#273&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;7 is one of the most important number in history. It would be hard to ignore :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The seven days of the week&#xD;&#xA; - The seven deadly sins&#xD;&#xA; - The lucky 7&#xD;&#xA; - The seven wise men of Greece&#xD;&#xA; - ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is 7 such an important number? What are the other societies it had an important place in?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3157" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="622" RevisionGUID="6741cf56-fb46-47f3-acf3-4d7d8923eb11" CreationDate="2015-05-10T04:38:28.847" UserId="139" Text="Why is 7 important in mythology and religion?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3158" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="622" RevisionGUID="6741cf56-fb46-47f3-acf3-4d7d8923eb11" CreationDate="2015-05-10T04:38:28.847" UserId="139" Text="|greek|christianity|numerology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3159" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="623" RevisionGUID="96e17aa5-8a19-431a-9c2c-3b9fa367c2ad" CreationDate="2015-05-10T04:38:28.847" UserId="139" Text="&lt;h1&gt;The number 7, symbol of perfection&lt;/h1&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;h2&gt;In Egypt&lt;/h2&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In Ancient Egypt, the numer **seven** was considered a symbol of perfection and efficiency. In many myths, the number 7 is used for both good and bad events.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Ra repented. His fierce anger passed away, and he sought to save the remnant of mankind. He sent messengers, who ran swifter than the storm wind, unto Elephantine, so that they might obtain speedily many plants of virtue. These they brought back, and they were well ground and steeped with barley in vessels filled with the blood of mankind. So was beer made and seven thousand jars were filled with it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In the seventh hour-division sits Osiris, divine judge of the dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can find these texts and more [here](http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/eml/eml04.htm). &#xD;&#xA;[Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbers_in_Egyptian_mythology) lists a lot of occurences of the number 7.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;h2&gt;In judeo-christian myths&lt;/h2&gt;&#xD;&#xA;This idea of perfection and completeness is [found in judeo-christian beliefs as well](http://faculty.lasierra.edu/~wclarke/nhmx.pdf) :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Roy Alan Anderson in Unfolding the Revelationi&#xD;&#xA; notices that to the Hebrew:&#xD;&#xA; 6 represented unrest,&#xD;&#xA; 7 perfection and&#xD;&#xA; 8 victory. &#xD;&#xA;When the number is repeated then it signifies an eternal quality. For example 666 would signify&#xD;&#xA;eternal unrest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that the repetition is 3 times - three being the number of holiness.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The number 7 is extremely frequent in Christianity - the Book Of Revelations mentions 7 churches, 7 trumpets, 7 bowls, 7 seals and 7 spirits. This tends to confirm that 7 is used to make a _complete set_.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;h2&gt;In Greece and the origin of the 7 in Christianity&lt;/h2&gt;&#xD;&#xA;While the reason about the origin of the number 7 in Egypt is hard to know, there are sources trying to explain where the 7 came to mean &quot;perfection&quot; in christian myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greeks considered 6 to be a perfect number, because of its **divisibility**. A sixth is one, or unity. A third is two, a half is 3, etc. The foot is also a sixth of the human size, so 6 represented the human. Finally, it is the sum of its divisers.[More here.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfection)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pope Gregory I found similar properties in the number 7, aswell as considering it representing **eternity** according to *Dialectics and Humanism*, vol. VII, no. 2. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This changed a lot - While Saint Augustine wrote that the world had been created in 6 days, this changed to 7 in the Middle Ages.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason behind the Seven Sages of Greece seems thus not to be linked to mythology or religion." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3160" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="624" RevisionGUID="2df7c0a0-6b0c-428d-9094-76f47f01631c" CreationDate="2015-05-10T04:43:51.887" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3161" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="625" RevisionGUID="0a382e66-eafa-41ed-87e5-3b9101800b58" CreationDate="2015-05-10T04:43:51.887" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3162" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="626" RevisionGUID="79ccf1bf-c526-420b-8f62-2ef7f426273f" CreationDate="2015-05-10T04:47:32.967" UserId="42" Text="In [Aron Pinker's article &quot;A Goat for Azazel&quot;](http://www.jhsonline.org/Articles/article_69.pdf), in the Journal of Hewbrew Scriptures, he suggests Azazel (עזאזל), was originally it's homophone עזזאל, or &quot;Powerful God&quot;, residing in the desert.  In effect, both goats would be offered to the same God, in two different aspects and locations.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He concludes as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jewish tradition associates the outstanding manifestations or attributes of God with the deity’s various names. Thus with יהוה is associated “mercy,” with אלהים “justice,” with שלום “peace,” etc. It has been shown that significant evidence suggests that biblical עזאזל was originally the homophone עזזאל “Powerful God,” whose abode on earth was in the desert. Perhaps, עזזאל was associated with the deity’s attribute of strength, explaining the coming of the deity from the desert in theophanies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The ritual described in Lev 16:5–26 was to the same God, potentially being at two locations—the Temple or the desert, and identified as יהוה and עזזאל respectively. This would explain the meticulous rite of ensuring sameness of sacrifice and leaving the final pick of the scapegoat to God via the procedure of a lot. On the unique Day of Atonement God (as יהוה and עזזאל ) was approached at both locations, there could not be even the slightest show of preference.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In later times, God’s abode in the Temple or Jerusalem completely displaced God’s desert abode, relegating it to evil forces as was the belief in Near-Eastern cultures. In this process עזזאל , or a derivative of this name, became a satanic figure.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is hardly the only available interpretation, but he makes a very compelling, and well-supported, case." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3163" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="624" RevisionGUID="e01d831b-a7d4-4798-96cf-83dec6bd2ac7" CreationDate="2015-05-10T05:04:12.910" UserId="139" Comment="added 194 characters in body" Text="Numerology is any belief of a divine or mystical relationship between a number and an event or property.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, the 3 was frequently used in judeo-christian, norse and egyptian beliefs." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3164" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="624" RevisionGUID="e01d831b-a7d4-4798-96cf-83dec6bd2ac7" CreationDate="2015-05-10T05:04:12.910" Comment="Proposed by 139 approved by 42, 79 edit id of 180" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3165" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="625" RevisionGUID="36562a17-870a-4b0d-bbf3-086a2452451f" CreationDate="2015-05-10T05:04:21.700" UserId="139" Comment="added 191 characters in body" Text="Numerology is any belief of a divine or mystical relationship between a number and an event or property. For example, the 3 was frequently used in judeo-christian, norse and egyptian beliefs." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3166" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="625" RevisionGUID="36562a17-870a-4b0d-bbf3-086a2452451f" CreationDate="2015-05-10T05:04:21.700" Comment="Proposed by 139 approved by 42, 79 edit id of 181" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3167" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="625" RevisionGUID="c68620e3-6fd7-4f61-aa5b-0d4addf2d853" CreationDate="2015-05-10T11:58:20.287" UserId="79" Comment="deleted 86 characters in body" Text="Numerology is any belief of a divine or mystical relationship between a number and an event or property. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3168" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="625" RevisionGUID="c68620e3-6fd7-4f61-aa5b-0d4addf2d853" CreationDate="2015-05-10T11:58:20.287" Comment="Proposed by 79 approved by 42, 29 edit id of 182" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3169" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="627" RevisionGUID="3c6036c3-a7ff-432c-9d32-12f225432e74" CreationDate="2015-05-10T15:47:38.473" UserId="57" Text="[Role playing games](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game) are usually focused on a relatively small and disparate party of adventurers, that come together to achieve a common goal. More often than not each member's motivation for joining the party is unique; some join for honour, some for solidarity, some for gold and others simply because they don't have a choice. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There sometimes is a clear leader of the pack, but the rest of the party aren't just followers. Each member's background, unique skills, and sense of morality usually play a crucial part in the story. In the more complex games of the genre, your pick of the lot may affect the story to the point that it may even lead to a different ending.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A very common example of a story centered around such a party of adventures in modern literature is Tolkien's [The Lord of the Rings](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lord_of_the_Rings). The &quot;company&quot; formed in the first book of the trilogy, quite possibly provided the template early RPG game writers based their own adventuring parties upon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But how about ancient myths? Are there any myths from historical periods before the Middle Ages that are focused on such a party of adventurers?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3170" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="627" RevisionGUID="3c6036c3-a7ff-432c-9d32-12f225432e74" CreationDate="2015-05-10T15:47:38.473" UserId="57" Text="Are there any ancient myths about adventuring parties?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3171" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="627" RevisionGUID="3c6036c3-a7ff-432c-9d32-12f225432e74" CreationDate="2015-05-10T15:47:38.473" UserId="57" Text="|myth-identification|mythopoeia|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3172" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="628" RevisionGUID="74de23cb-89f5-42c6-b829-ec9f5180b046" CreationDate="2015-05-10T15:47:38.473" UserId="57" Text="An archetypal story of a wandering party of adventures is the story of Jason and the [Argonauts](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argonauts) long and arduous expedition to Colchis in order to retrieve the Golden Fleece. Although the myth was known in Homeric times, its classic telling is the [Argonautica](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argonautica), the only surviving Hellenistic epic, written by [Apollonius of Rhodes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonius_of_Rhodes). The oldest surviving version of the story can be found in Pindar's [Pythian Ode IV: For Arcesilas of Cyrene Chariot Race 462 BC](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0033.tlg002.perseus-eng1:4).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the story, the party is first assembled in [Iolcos](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iolcos), when famed heroes of the era answer Jason's call for adventure. The story is noted for its moral ambiguity, a departure from the clear lines between good and evil in the Homeric epics. Whether the Argonauts are a party of heroes returning the Golden Fleece to its rightful place, or a bunch of pirates wreaking havoc for little more than personal gain is left to the reader to decide.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the adventures themselves, although there's no definitive list of the Argonauts, here are some of the more interesting characters: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Jason](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  The leader of the company is the only one of the adventurers who isn't an established warrior or craftsman at the beginning of the story. The Argonautica is essentially his coming of age story. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Orpheus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orpheus)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  In modern RPG vernacular, the legendary poet would be the bard of the party. His songs soothe tensions amongst the crew, and he saves the day when the Argonauts encounter the [Sirens](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siren_%28mythology%29).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Argus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argus_(son_of_Arestor))&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;  The builder of Argo, and also a member of her crew. It is heavily implied in the story that the journey would be impossible without Argus at the helm of the ship. He is the elder of the company, and the one Jason would more often turn to for counsel. &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;- [Medea](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medea)&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;  The echantress fulfils the role of Jason's love interest. She appears late in the story, and only joins the crew after they've retrieved the Golden Fleece. She [commits fratricide](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absyrtus) to help the crew escape Colchis and [uses her magic to kill Talos](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/218/57) and Pelias. If you are familiar with [Dungeons &amp; Dragons](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons), you'd probably think of Medea as [neutral evil](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)#Neutral_Evil).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Heracles](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heracles)  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;  The legendary brute doesn't feature much in the story, in Argonautica he's left behind in the first book. However, his role is crucial in the forming the company: The Argonauts, including Jason, elect him to lead their journey. However, Heracles passes the role to Jason, establishing the young adventurer's position atop the hierarchy of the company early on in the story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think this limited set is enough to show how disparate the members of the party were. Although tensions between members were common, ultimately the combination of their unique strengths and skillsets lead them to success. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3173" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="627" RevisionGUID="02b3628c-31c4-4d52-a7ab-01f39b6ab4f2" CreationDate="2015-05-10T16:00:37.473" UserId="57" Comment="added 84 characters in body" Text="[Role playing games](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game) are usually focused on a relatively small and disparate party of adventurers, that come together to achieve a common goal. More often than not each member's motivation for joining the party is unique; some join for honour, some for solidarity, some for gold and others simply because they don't have a choice. The members may not always share the same loyalties, or even be of the same species.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There sometimes is a clear leader of the pack, but the rest of the party aren't just followers. Each member's background, unique skills, and sense of morality usually play a crucial part in the story. In the more complex games of the genre, your pick of the lot may affect the story to the point that it may even lead to a different ending.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A very common example of a story centered around such a party of adventures in modern literature is Tolkien's [The Lord of the Rings](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lord_of_the_Rings). The &quot;company&quot; formed in the first book of the trilogy, quite possibly provided the template early RPG game writers based their own adventuring parties upon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But how about ancient myths? Are there any myths from historical periods before the Middle Ages that are focused on such a party of adventurers?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3174" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="628" RevisionGUID="66a8afe2-38ae-4bc6-8724-629044b8b9b9" CreationDate="2015-05-10T18:25:03.627" UserId="57" Comment="added 124 characters in body" Text="An archetypal story of a wandering party of adventures is the story of Jason and the [Argonauts](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argonauts) long and arduous expedition to Colchis in order to retrieve the Golden Fleece. Although the myth was known in Homeric times, its classic telling is the [Argonautica](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argonautica), the only surviving Hellenistic epic, written by [Apollonius of Rhodes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonius_of_Rhodes). The oldest surviving version of the story can be found in Pindar's [Pythian Ode IV: For Arcesilas of Cyrene Chariot Race 462 BC](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0033.tlg002.perseus-eng1:4).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the story, the party is first assembled in [Iolcos](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iolcos), when famed heroes of the era answer Jason's call for adventure. The story is noted for its moral ambiguity, a departure from the clear lines between good and evil in the Homeric epics. Whether the Argonauts are a party of heroes returning the Golden Fleece to its rightful place, or a bunch of pirates wreaking havoc for little more than personal gain is left to the reader to decide.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the adventures themselves, although there's no definitive list of the Argonauts, here are some of the more interesting characters: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Jason](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  The leader of the company is the only one of the adventurers who isn't an established warrior or craftsman at the beginning of the story. The Argonautica is essentially his coming of age story. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Orpheus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orpheus)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  In modern RPG vernacular, the legendary poet would be the bard of the party. His songs soothe tensions amongst the crew, and he saves the day when the Argonauts encounter the [Sirens](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siren_%28mythology%29).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Argus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argus_(son_of_Arestor))&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;  The builder of Argo, and also a member of her crew. It is heavily implied in the story that the journey would be impossible without Argus at the helm of the ship. He is the elder of the company, and the one Jason would more often turn to for counsel. &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;- [Medea](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medea)&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;  The echantress fulfils the role of Jason's love interest. She appears late in the story, and only joins the crew after they've retrieved the Golden Fleece. She [commits fratricide](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absyrtus) to help the crew escape Colchis and [uses her magic to kill Talos](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/218/57) and Pelias. If you are familiar with [Dungeons &amp; Dragons](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons), you'd probably think of Medea as [neutral evil](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)#Neutral_Evil).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Heracles](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heracles)  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;  The legendary brute doesn't feature much in the story, in Argonautica he's left behind in the first book. However, his role is crucial in the forming the company: The Argonauts, including Jason, elect him to lead their journey. However, Heracles passes the role to Jason, establishing the young adventurer's position atop the hierarchy of the company early on in the story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think this limited set is enough to show how diverse the members of the party were. This wasn't an army ordered to retrieve the Fleece, but a party brought together by a common sense of adventure. Although tensions between members were common, ultimately the combination of their unique strengths and skillsets lead them to success. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3176" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="627" RevisionGUID="28c9bec9-bd77-40fc-8d87-2b0c3a3afe35" CreationDate="2015-05-10T20:10:02.553" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3178" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="629" RevisionGUID="d5e4dad9-adc3-4d9c-9259-43f5bba28be5" CreationDate="2015-05-10T20:33:33.083" UserId="227" Text="I recently listened to [Purcell's &quot;King Arthur&quot;][1], and at one point in the libretto, Grimbald speaks of &quot;moon-born elves&quot; (at 19:25 in the linked video), which made me curious because I haven't previously heard of any particular connection between elves and the moon, at least not apart from the occasional affinity with the night in general.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any more wide-spread basis for elves originating from the moon somehow, or is &quot;moon-born&quot; some kind of more general term for deceitful creatures, or something else?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The whole libretto is available [here][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Also, I'm not exactly sure how to tag this due to the cross-over of Celtic and Germanic myth in Britain.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byecmk9ANYs&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.impresario.ch/libretto/libpurkin_e.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3179" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="629" RevisionGUID="d5e4dad9-adc3-4d9c-9259-43f5bba28be5" CreationDate="2015-05-10T20:33:33.083" UserId="227" Text="Are elves born on the moon?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3180" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="629" RevisionGUID="d5e4dad9-adc3-4d9c-9259-43f5bba28be5" CreationDate="2015-05-10T20:33:33.083" UserId="227" Text="|celtic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3181" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="629" RevisionGUID="1096f355-9b23-4b86-a383-a18d159c7c6a" CreationDate="2015-05-10T21:01:38.687" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 1 character in body; edited tags" Text="I recently listened to [Purcell's &quot;King Arthur&quot;][1], and at one point in the libretto, Grimbald speaks of &quot;moon-born elves&quot; (at 19:25 in the linked video), which made me curious because I haven't previously heard of any particular connection between elves and the moon, at least not apart from the occasional affinity with the night in general.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any more wide-spread basis for elves originating from the moon somehow, or is &quot;moon-born&quot; some kind of more general term for deceitful creatures, or something else?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The whole libretto is available [here][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Also, I'm not exactly sure how to tag this due to the cross-over of Celtic and Germanic myth in Britain.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byecmk9ANYs&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.impresario.ch/libretto/libpurkin_e.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3182" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="629" RevisionGUID="1096f355-9b23-4b86-a383-a18d159c7c6a" CreationDate="2015-05-10T21:01:38.687" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 1 character in body; edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|arthurian|celtic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3183" PostHistoryTypeId="8" PostId="629" RevisionGUID="d874f30f-9ff1-463d-8cb4-d83a1301eb44" CreationDate="2015-05-10T21:31:24.997" UserId="183" Comment="Rollback to [d5e4dad9-adc3-4d9c-9259-43f5bba28be5]" Text="I recently listened to [Purcell's &quot;King Arthur&quot;][1], and at one point in the libretto, Grimbald speaks of &quot;moon-born elves&quot; (at 19:25 in the linked video), which made me curious because I haven't previously heard of any particular connection between elves and the moon, at least not apart from the occasional affinity with the night in general.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any more wide-spread basis for elves originating from the moon somehow, or is &quot;moon-born&quot; some kind of more general term for deceitful creatures, or something else?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The whole libretto is available [here][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Also, I'm not exactly sure how to tag this due to the cross-over of Celtic and Germanic myth in Britain.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byecmk9ANYs&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.impresario.ch/libretto/libpurkin_e.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3184" PostHistoryTypeId="9" PostId="629" RevisionGUID="d874f30f-9ff1-463d-8cb4-d83a1301eb44" CreationDate="2015-05-10T21:31:24.997" UserId="183" Comment="Rollback to [d5e4dad9-adc3-4d9c-9259-43f5bba28be5]" Text="|celtic|" />
  <row Id="3185" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="604" RevisionGUID="b530ebe5-4a2f-4d64-a81b-0ea139411bfe" CreationDate="2015-05-10T22:16:00.053" UserId="183" Comment="Whoops! Fixed error; Harmonia was immortal." Text="Cadmus may have been the first mortal (Harmonia was immortal) to be married while Olympians watched, but he was not the only one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Peleus and Thetis**](http://www.mythindex.com/greek-mythology/P/Peleus.html) were married on Mount Pelion. Thetis was, according to some stories, immortal, but Peleus himself was mortal.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While on mount Pelion, Peleus married the Nereid Thetis, by whom he became the father of Achilles, though some regarded this Thetis as different from the marine divinity, and called her a daughter of Cheiron. (Apollon. Rhod. i. 558; comp. THETIS.) The gods took part in the marriage solemnity, and Cheiron presented Peleus with a lance (Hom. Il. xvi. 143, xxiv. 61, &amp;c., which, however, according to Pindar, Nem. iii. 56, Peleus made for himself), Poseidon with the immortal horses, Balius and Xanthus, and the other gods with arms. (Apollod. iii. 13. § 5; Horn. Il. xvi. 381, xvii. 443, xviii. 84.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eris was not invited, however, and [began the Trojan War](http://web.stanford.edu/~plomio/history.html).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Additionally, [Hymenaios](http://www.theoi.com/Ouranios/ErosHymenaios.html) was supposed to attend every wedding, being the wedding god himself." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3187" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="630" RevisionGUID="16ff697b-593f-4a4c-bade-6fc68834f149" CreationDate="2015-05-10T22:59:49.823" UserId="183" Text="In [the fourth branch of the Mabinogion](http://www.mabinogi.net/math.htm), Gwydion and company move through the areas surrounding the court of Dryfed after receiving pigs from Pryderi:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; That night they made it as far as the uplands of Ceredigion - and the place [where they stopped] is still called 'Mochdref' because of that. The next day they went on their way [and] they came through Elenid. That night they were between Keri and Arwystli, in a township that is also called 'Mochtref' for that reason. And thense they went onwards, and that night they came to a commote in Powys which is likewise called 'Mochnant' after that incident, and they were there for the night. And from there they went on as far as the cantref of Rhos, and there they were that night in a town still known as 'Mochtref'.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Mochdref&quot; literally translates to &quot;Pig town&quot;, and &quot;Mochnant&quot; literally translates to &quot;Pig valley&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What were the original names of the four places thereafter known as Mochdref, Mochtref, Mochnant and Mochtref?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3188" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="630" RevisionGUID="16ff697b-593f-4a4c-bade-6fc68834f149" CreationDate="2015-05-10T22:59:49.823" UserId="183" Text="What were the original names of Mochdref, Mochtref, Mochnant and Mochtref?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3189" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="630" RevisionGUID="16ff697b-593f-4a4c-bade-6fc68834f149" CreationDate="2015-05-10T22:59:49.823" UserId="183" Text="|welsh|mabinogion|names|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3190" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="623" RevisionGUID="b8650f61-1529-4a00-9e32-a093a78991a4" CreationDate="2015-05-10T23:19:06.080" UserId="139" Comment="Added informations about Pope Gregory I" Text="&lt;h1&gt;The number 7, symbol of perfection&lt;/h1&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;h2&gt;In Egypt&lt;/h2&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In Ancient Egypt, the numer **seven** was considered a symbol of perfection and efficiency. In many myths, the number 7 is used for both good and bad events.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Ra repented. His fierce anger passed away, and he sought to save the remnant of mankind. He sent messengers, who ran swifter than the storm wind, unto Elephantine, so that they might obtain speedily many plants of virtue. These they brought back, and they were well ground and steeped with barley in vessels filled with the blood of mankind. So was beer made and seven thousand jars were filled with it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In the seventh hour-division sits Osiris, divine judge of the dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can find these texts and more [here](http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/eml/eml04.htm). &#xD;&#xA;[Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbers_in_Egyptian_mythology) lists a lot of occurences of the number 7.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;h2&gt;In judeo-christian myths&lt;/h2&gt;&#xD;&#xA;This idea of perfection and completeness is [found in judeo-christian beliefs as well](http://faculty.lasierra.edu/~wclarke/nhmx.pdf) :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Roy Alan Anderson in Unfolding the Revelationi&#xD;&#xA; notices that to the Hebrew:&#xD;&#xA; 6 represented unrest,&#xD;&#xA; 7 perfection and&#xD;&#xA; 8 victory. &#xD;&#xA;When the number is repeated then it signifies an eternal quality. For example 666 would signify&#xD;&#xA;eternal unrest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that the repetition is 3 times - three being the number of holiness.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The number 7 is extremely frequent in Christianity - the Book Of Revelations mentions 7 churches, 7 trumpets, 7 bowls, 7 seals and 7 spirits. This tends to confirm that 7 is used to make a _complete set_.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;h2&gt;In Greece and the origin of the 7 in Christianity&lt;/h2&gt;&#xD;&#xA;While the reason about the origin of the number 7 in Egypt is hard to know, there are sources trying to explain where the 7 came to mean &quot;perfection&quot; in christian myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greeks considered 6 to be a perfect number, because of its **divisibility**. A sixth is one, or unity. A third is two, a half is 3, etc. The foot is also a sixth of the human size, so 6 represented the human. Finally, it is the sum of its divisers. [More here.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfection)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pope Gregory I found similar properties in the number 7, aswell as considering it representing **eternity** according to *Dialectics and Humanism*, vol. VII, no. 2. One of the reasons given for his fascination with the number is [its presence in Antique history : the Seven Wonders, the seven stages of man, the seven planets...](http://www.le.ac.uk/arthistory/seedcorn/faq-sds.html) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The number Seven always represented a complete set.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This changed a lot - While Saint Augustine wrote that the world had been created in 6 days, this changed to 7 in the Middle Ages.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason behind the Seven Sages of Greece seems thus not to be linked to mythology or religion." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3191" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="631" RevisionGUID="1a77224a-41f3-47c5-892d-46f391e88964" CreationDate="2015-05-10T23:24:47.357" UserId="227" Text="I will admit that I'm not a scholar on the subject and mostly just speculating from what I have available to me, but maybe my speculation is better than nothing, lacking another answer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My interpretation is that Inanna has just matured enough to realize her own majesty, as seen not only by her delight at her own beauty but also by her placing the crown upon her head. In realizing her majesty, she also feels that the *me* belong rightly to herself rather than to Enki, and therefore she goes to retrieve them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You may also find [this text][1] interesting in the context; it appears to be a more &quot;raw&quot; translation of the original tablets. In particular, it includes the following fragments (that Inanna speak) in the beginning which seem to be missing from your version of the text:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When I have gratified the lord ……, when I have made …… brilliant, when I have made …… beautiful, when I have made …… glorious, when I have ……, when I have made …… perfect, when I have made …… luxuriant, when I have made …… exuberant, when I have made …… shining (?), when I have made …… return, when I have made …… brilliant, when I have made …… shimmering&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I quote them as they appear to me to support my interpretation that Inanna has realized her own greatness.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But again, I'm really not very well-versed in Sumerian myth. I hope someone might be able to give a more informed answer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.1.3.1#&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3192" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="631" RevisionGUID="a352f4ce-6221-42fb-aa8a-283611d5a563" CreationDate="2015-05-10T23:30:40.660" UserId="227" Comment="added 8 characters in body" Text="I will admit that I'm not a scholar on the subject and mostly just speculating from what I have available to me, but maybe my speculation is better than nothing, lacking another answer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My interpretation is that Inanna has just matured enough to realize her own majesty, as seen not only by her delight at her own beauty but also by her placing the crown upon her head. In realizing her majesty, she also feels that the *me* belong rightly to herself rather than to Enki, and therefore she goes to retrieve them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You may also find [this text][1] interesting in the context; it appears to be a more &quot;raw&quot; translation of the original tablets. In particular, it includes the following fragments (that Inanna speak) in the beginning which seem to be missing from your version of the text:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When I have gratified the lord ……, when I have made …… brilliant, when I have made …… beautiful, when I have made …… glorious, when I have ……, when I have made …… perfect, when I have made …… luxuriant, when I have made …… exuberant, when I have made …… shining (?), when I have made …… return, when I have made …… brilliant, when I have made …… shimmering&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I quote them as they appear to me to support my interpretation that Inanna has grown to realize her own greatness.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But again, I'm really not very well-versed in Sumerian myth. I hope someone might be able to give a more informed answer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.1.3.1#&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3193" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="632" RevisionGUID="6bc881ad-cd55-4958-9d50-dfddcfe378ce" CreationDate="2015-05-11T00:11:21.800" UserId="227" Text="I recently listened to [Purcell's &quot;King Arthur&quot;][1], and at one point in the libretto, the Saxons sing of the &quot;juice that makes the Britons bold&quot; (at 11:40 in the linked video; the movement starts at 11:00), which immediately made me think of Asterix with the magic potion(/juice) that makes the Gauls(/Celts/Britons) strong(/bold).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there some underlying mythology about some Celtic potion that makes people bold/strong, or is the connection entirely apparent and spurious? (And in the case of the latter, what does the juice actually refer to?)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As an aside, I also find it interesting that they'd drink British potions in the hall of Woden. What's up with that?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The whole libretto is available [here][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Yes, this is very similar to my [other question][3]. King Arthur deals me a few surprises.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byecmk9ANYs&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.impresario.ch/libretto/libpurkin_e.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/629/are-elves-born-on-the-moon" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3194" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="632" RevisionGUID="6bc881ad-cd55-4958-9d50-dfddcfe378ce" CreationDate="2015-05-11T00:11:21.800" UserId="227" Text="Did the Gauls have a magic potion that made them strong?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3195" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="632" RevisionGUID="6bc881ad-cd55-4958-9d50-dfddcfe378ce" CreationDate="2015-05-11T00:11:21.800" UserId="227" Text="|celtic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3196" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="633" RevisionGUID="55dd54a1-785b-4445-b621-48ae6f243650" CreationDate="2015-05-11T00:21:52.353" UserId="11" Text="I haven't been able to find any reference for fairy men marrying human women, or the existence of fairy men *at all*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that the Tylwyth Teg only ever kidnapped human boys, not girls. This seems to support this (emphasis mine):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mr. John Jones speaks very little English, and Mr. John Rees, of the Council School, acted as our interpreter. This is the testimony:--&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pygmy-sized 'Tylwyth Teg'.--'I was born and bred where there was tradition that the Tylwyth Teg lived in holes in the hills, and that none of these Tylwyth Teg was taller than three to four feet. It was a common idea that many of the Tylwyth Teg, forming in a ring, would dance and sing out on the mountain-sides, or on the plain, and that if children should meet with them at such a time they would lose their way and never get out of the ring. If the Tylwyth Teg fancied any particular child they would always keep that child, taking off its clothes and putting them on one of their own children, which was then left in its place. **They took only boys, never girls.'**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Human-sized 'Tylwyth Teg'.--'A special sort of Tylwyth Teg used to come out of lakes and dance, and their *line looks enticed **young men** to follow them back into the lakes, and there marry one of them. If the husband wished to leave the lake he had to go without his fairy wife.* This sort of Tylwyth Teg were as big as ordinary people; and they were often seen riding out of the lakes and back again on horses.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Fairy-Faith in Celtic Countries, By W. Y. Evans-Wentz, 148](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/ffcc/ffcc124.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This passage, coupled with the fact that I haven't been able to find *any* stories to the contrary, suggests to me that there are no male fairies to marry human women." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3199" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="632" RevisionGUID="35de400d-8c82-4e6c-85e4-7bc64e001278" CreationDate="2015-05-11T00:42:09.753" UserId="227" Comment="edited tags" Text="|celtic|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3200" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="634" RevisionGUID="89ac5ae2-03eb-4e64-9aad-b4f64ea463a6" CreationDate="2015-05-11T01:11:50.260" UserId="42" Text="Doing some more reading, I found that Wolkstein does provide some information on this bit of text, which expresses a similar meaning to @Dolda2000's answer:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Sumerian, the word for sheepfold, womb, vulva, loins, and lap are the same.  The images presented in the first few lines - shepherd, sheepfold, apple tree, young woman, and vulva - are all related to fertility.  Gone is the brooding, fearful adolescent girl of &quot;The Huluppu Tree.&quot;  Inanna has received her throne and crown.  The story of &quot;Inanna and the God of Wisdom&quot; begins with Inanna delighting in her womanhood and wishing to test its powers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which provides some insight into the emphasis on fertility, but apart from that seems to agree, that she realizes her maturity and greatness, and, given that knowledge, sets out to claim her due.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3201" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="635" RevisionGUID="bec01ba0-8b42-48c5-9917-1632eaead825" CreationDate="2015-05-11T02:35:28.697" UserId="18" Text="##The name El was a generic name.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the Wikipedia article on [El](), &quot;El&quot; was a generic name for a god, usually a supreme god. In that sense, &quot;El&quot; functions very much like &quot;God&quot; does in the English language.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ʾĒl ...is a Northwest Semitic word meaning &quot;god&quot; or &quot;deity&quot;, or referring (as a proper name) to any one of multiple major Ancient Near East deities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Specific deities known as El or Il include the supreme god of the Canaanite religion,&lt;sup&gt;[[4](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)#cite_note-FOOTNOTEMatthews200479-4)]&lt;/sup&gt; the supreme god of the Mesopotamian Semites in the pre-Sargonic period,&lt;sup&gt;[[5](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)#CITEREFGelb1961)]&lt;/sup&gt; and the God of the Hebrew Bible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[There are many names of God](http://christianity.stackexchange.com/a/706/58) in the Bible, and many start with &quot;El&quot;. Now, the Legend of Keret is an Ugaritic story, whereas the Wikipedia article and the Bible talk about Canaan. So, it's worth noting that&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The foundations of the Bronze Age city Ugarit were divided into quarters. In the north-east quarter of the walled enclosure, the remains of three significant religious buildings were discovered, including two temples (of the gods Baal Hadad and Dagon) and a building referred to as the library or the high priest's house. Within these structures atop the acropolis numerous invaluable mythological texts were found. These texts have provided the basis for understanding of the Canaanite mythological world and religion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ~ [Wikipedia: Ugaritic Religion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugarit#Ugaritic_religion)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;[Baal](https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=baal&amp;qs_version=NIV)&quot; and &quot;[Dagon](https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=dagon&amp;qs_version=NIV)&quot; both appear in the Old Testament as Canaanite/Philistine/pagan gods. So Ugarite and Canaan are closely related.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##El in the Legend of Keret is *not* the same as El in the Bible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As [durron597 quoted in his answer](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/602/18),&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [I]n the Ugaritic texts the god El is revealed to be wholly benevolent in nature, whereas Yahweh has a fierce as well as a kind side.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ~ [Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan, John Day, 13-14](http://books.google.com/books?id=y-gfwlltlRwC)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Indeed, looking at the original text, near the end this god El is referred to as&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Kindly One, El Benign&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ~ [Ugaritic Myths, Epics, and Legends](http://www.ericlevy.com/Revel/Intro2/ANET%20Ugarit%20Epics.PDF), p 148&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have never heard Yahweh/the Christian God (let's use &quot;Jehovah&quot;) called &quot;benign&quot;. He is *benevolent*, yes, but that's not all there is to Him. There are several more quite significant differences that further distinguish &quot;El&quot; and Yahweh/Jehovah, including but not limited to:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - King Keret is El's son. Yahweh doesn't have a son.&#xD;&#xA; - King Keret almost died. Jehovah's son wasn't mortal until his birth around 3-4 A.D., give or take 2 years. These myths are separated by 1200-1500 years. (Plus, Jehovah's son *did* die [and was resurrected, but that's beside the point].)&#xD;&#xA; - There are multiple positive/neutral references to gods (such as Baal, Asherah, and Ashtoreth) in the Legend of Keret that are strongly condemned in the Old Testament.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even if the god &quot;El&quot; referred to in the Legend of Keret and the god that became known as Yahweh used to be the same, so to speak, by the time any of the books in the Bible were written, they were certainly different gods." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3202" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="602" RevisionGUID="13a1e1c0-660a-423f-a673-c97297b73982" CreationDate="2015-05-11T02:44:08.093" UserId="18" Comment="Yayweh -&gt; Yahweh" Text="You have two questions here. I'll start with the straightforward part first. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##Which El is the El referred to in the Legend of Keret?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Legend of Keret](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend_of_Keret#cite_note-1), discovered in modern Ras Shamra, is from the late bronze age. It's the right age and the right part of the world to be referring to [El](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)) from the [Ancient Canaanite religion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanite_religion). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It has been suggested that the poem was composed to glorify King Niqmad of Ugarit by giving him a deified ancester, the Keret, King of Hubur, who is the subjectof this poem. The mythological element is sufficiently prominent to justify its inclusion in an account of **Canaanite mythology.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Middle Eastern Mythology, S. H. Hooke, 88](http://books.google.com/books?id=YSUnmTKWhtkC)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##Is the Canaanite El the same deity as the Bible's Yahweh?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This fascinating question of is a topic under much contention among historians of the period, but I found the most compelling argument from [John Day](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Day_(Old_Testament_scholar)):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the nineteenth century J. Wellhausen believed Yahweh to be the same as El, and more recently this has been particularly argued by F.M. Cross and J.C. de Moor. However, the following arguments may be brought against this. First, in the Ugaritic texts the god El is revealed to be wholly benevolent in nature, whereas Yahweh has a fierce as well as a kind side. Secondly, as T.N.D. Mettinger has rightly emphasized, the earliest evidence, such as that found in Judg. 5.4-5, associates Yahweh with the storm, which was not something with which El was connected at all. Rather, this is reminiscent of Baal. Thirdly, as for F.M. Cross's view that Yahweh was originally a part of El's cultic title, 'El who creates hosts' (*'il ḏū yahwī ṣaba'ōt*), this is pure speculation. The formula in question is nowhere attested, whether inside or outside the Bible. Cross's reasons for thinking that *yhwh ṣb't* cannot simply mean 'Lord of hosts', namely, that a proper name should not appear in the construct, is incorrect. Further *hyh (hwh)* is not attested in Hebrew in the hiphil ('cause to be', 'create'), though this is case in Aramaic and Syriac. Yahweh in any case more likely means 'he is' (qal) rather than 'he causes to be/creates' (hiphil): to suppose otherwise requires emendation of the Hebrew text in Exod. 3.14 (*'ehyeh*, 'I am'), which explains the name Yahweh. **I conclude, therefore, that El and Yahweh were originally distinct deities that became amalgamated.** This view was held as long ago as F.K. Movers, and has been argued since by scholars such as O. Eissfeldt and T.N.D. Mettinger.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan, John Day, 13-14](http://books.google.com/books?id=y-gfwlltlRwC)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This section in the book is very well cited and I recommend following up on his different sources; it also goes on quite fascinatingly at some length, but to do so is outside the scope of this answer." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3203" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="636" RevisionGUID="1198257b-9929-4402-a6fa-6b20a0bf3b9b" CreationDate="2015-05-11T03:45:40.883" UserId="11" Text="The actual lyric is:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I call you all  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; To Woden's Hall,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Your temples round  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; With ivy bound  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In goblets crown'd,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And plenteous bowls of burnish'd gold,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Where ye shall laugh  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And dance and quaff  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The juice that makes the Britons bold&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To figure this out, what is Woden's Hall? The simplest source for this is Wikipedia - though it's corroborated in many palces:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In wider Germanic mythology and paganism, Odin was known in Old English as Wóden, in Old Saxon as Wōden, and in Old High German as Wuotan or Wodan, all stemming from the reconstructed Proto-Germanic theonym *wōđanaz.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, Woden's Hall is almost certainly [Valhalla](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valhalla), a hall where the fiercest Nordic warriors would sit around waiting for [Ragnarok](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar%C3%B6k). So what is Valhalla like, as far magic drink is like? For that, we go to the Poetic Edda:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 23. Five hundred doors | and forty there are,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; I ween, in Valhall's walls;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eight hundred fighters | through one door fare  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; When to war with the wolf they go.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 24. Five hundred rooms | and forty there are  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; I ween, in Bilskirnir built;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Of all the homes | whose roofs I beheld,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; My son's the greatest meseemed.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 25. Heithrun is the goat | who stands by Heerfather's hall,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And the branches of Lærath she bites;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **The pitcher she fills | with the fair, clear mead,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ne'er fails the foaming drink.**   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Poetic Edda, translated by Henry Adams Bellows, p. 94](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe06.htm) &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So: the juice that makes the Briton's bold is probably referring to the mead served by the magic goat Heithrun in Odin's Valhalla." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3205" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="637" RevisionGUID="70d5957f-b6e4-4e46-b1a9-b82eb3dc69df" CreationDate="2015-05-11T08:05:59.890" UserId="111" Text="In the 16th-century chinese classic *Journey to the West* by Wu Cheng'en, the Jade Emperor is depicted as ruling over Heavens the way an actual human emperor would rule over a country. Complaints are brought to him and he rules by decrees and ordinances, in a very bureaucratic way. Everyone in Heaven has a specific job to do and need to report on said job to him. Slackers are shown to be punished severely.  &#xD;&#xA;In the book, the Jade Emperor also have an impressive army whose generals are some of the other classic Chinese deities (the list being quite long I will abstain from naming them here). The Jade Emperor is also shown to be sometimes proud, inflexible and short-tempered.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This depiction seems very peculiar to me (in particular it seems to lack in idealism).  &#xD;&#xA;Now I'm aware that the author veers frequently away from the canon of chinese mythology (even if most of the novel is just a rewriting of classic folkloric tales), but is this particular depiction close to the canonical chinese mythology or is it just a modification the author made to allow the story arc to make sense (Sun Wukong free spirit thus conflicting with the Jade Emperor strict bureaucracy and thus triggering his rebellion)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3206" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="637" RevisionGUID="70d5957f-b6e4-4e46-b1a9-b82eb3dc69df" CreationDate="2015-05-11T08:05:59.890" UserId="111" Text="Accuracy of the depiction of the Jade Emperor in &quot;Journey to the West&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3207" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="637" RevisionGUID="70d5957f-b6e4-4e46-b1a9-b82eb3dc69df" CreationDate="2015-05-11T08:05:59.890" UserId="111" Text="|chinese|journey-to-the-west|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3208" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="152" RevisionGUID="c5973222-0e49-4a79-ac77-82fc9cc51730" CreationDate="2015-05-11T09:45:41.833" UserId="111" Comment="corrected typos" Text="I believe it may be the Tritons, but there are probably other part-fish, part-humans. Plus, there was a fish-headed god in antiquity (not greco-roman).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A side note is that there were some mistranslations and some of the &quot;sirens&quot; in Greek tales were half-birds and not half-fish (i.e., harpies and not mermaids).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://www.crystalinks.com/sirens.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;In Greek mythology, the Sirens were three dangerous bird-women, portrayed as seductresses who lured nearby sailors with their enchanting music and voices to shipwreck on the rocky coast of their island. Roman poets placed them on an island called Sirenum scopuli. In some later, rationalized traditions, the literal geography of the &quot;flowery&quot; island of Anthemoessa, or Anthemusa, is fixed: sometimes on Cape Pelorum and at others in the islands known as the Sirenuse, near Paestum, or in Capreae. All such locations were surrounded by cliffs and rocks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;When the Sirens were given a parentage they were considered the daughters of the river god Achelous, fathered upon Terpsichore, Melpomene, Sterope, or Chthon (the Earth; in Euripides' Helen 167, Helen in her anguish calls upon &quot;Winged maidens, daughters of the Earth&quot;). Although they lured mariners, for the Greeks the Sirens in their &quot;meadow starred with flowers&quot; were not sea deities. Roman writers linked the Sirens more closely to the sea, as daughters of Phorcys.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Their number is variously reported as between two and five. In the Odyssey, Homer says nothing of their origin or names, but gives the number of the Sirens as two. Later writers mention both their names and number: some state that there were three, Peisinoe, Aglaope, and Thelxiepeia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Sirens of Greek mythology are sometimes portrayed in later folklore as fully aquatic and mermaid-like; the facts that in Spanish, French, Italian, Polish, Romanian and Portuguese the word for mermaid is respectively Sirena, Sirene, Sirena, Syrena, Sirena and Sereia, and that in biology the Sirenia comprise an order of fully aquatic mammals that includes the dugong and manatee, add to the visual confusion, so that Sirens are even represented as mermaids. However, &quot;the sirens, though they sing to mariners, are not sea-maidens,&quot; Harrison had cautioned; &quot;they dwell on an island in a flowery meadow.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3210" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="638" RevisionGUID="bc454cec-ed89-438c-849f-a88ec740df31" CreationDate="2015-05-11T10:33:15.210" UserId="91" Text="A [shachihoko][1] (鯱鉾) is an animal in Japanese folklore with the head of a tiger and the body of a carp. It is said to bring rain so is often used on roofs, most notably on [Nagoya Castle][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Golden Shachihoko on Nagoya Castle][3]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since tigers became extinct in Japan in prehistoric times, it is possible that the creature was not a 100% native Japanese creation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If not, then how was the creature created, what was it based on? Was it partly derived, say the tiger part, from mainland Asian influences, whose myths feature tigers prominently? Was there originally a similar chimeric creature, one that took on its modern tiger-carp form later? Or was it largely based on a similar creature in foreign myth?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shachihoko&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagoya_Castle&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Ni276.png&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kinshachi_crow.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3211" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="638" RevisionGUID="bc454cec-ed89-438c-849f-a88ec740df31" CreationDate="2015-05-11T10:33:15.210" UserId="91" Text="How was the Shachihoko created?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3212" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="638" RevisionGUID="bc454cec-ed89-438c-849f-a88ec740df31" CreationDate="2015-05-11T10:33:15.210" UserId="91" Text="|mythical-creatures|japanese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3213" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="639" RevisionGUID="b0d6fb2d-4070-4ac7-bd3f-9c9874c1b62b" CreationDate="2015-05-11T11:07:54.233" UserDisplayName="user124" Text="You are correct in that this being is not an entirely Japanese creation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the [Japanese Buddhist Statuary page about this creature][1], its actual origin is unknown, suggesting that it has its origins in foreign myths:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Probably derived from the ancient Vedic sea monster known (in Sanskrit) as [Makara][2]. Also possibly derived from a type of Chinese temple-roof ornament known in Japan as [Shibi][3] 鴟尾&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The frequent use as roof ornaments occurred in the Edo era, and it was believed that the&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The creatures are thought to provide **protection against fire**, as they are attributed with the power to control rain. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An interesting perspective of the origins of the *Shachihoko* comes from the blog article [The twin fish, state symbol of Uttar Pradesh and commonly found on ancient buildings of Ayodhya, is the biggest clue to the link and the route undertaken by Kaya (Kara/Gaya) royals to Korea (and Japan)][4], that a cultural/mythological route between India and Korea and then to Japan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Nippon.com blog article [Real Animals and Mythical Counterparts][5], states that the kanji for *shachi* (an abbreviated form of *shachihoko*) shares the same kanji for an orca or killer whale - although it is not clear which influence which.  However, the writers suggest another link in that the orca&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; venerated by the Ainu and other northern peoples and credited with supernatural powers similar to those of the weather-controlling fabulous beast&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/shachihoko.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makara_%28Hindu_mythology%29&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shibi_(roof_tile)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://japanesemythology.wordpress.com/the-twin-fish-which-is-the-state-symbol-of-uttar-pradesh-found-on-ancient-buildings-of-ayodhya-is-the-biggest-clue-to-the-link-and-the-route-undertaken-by-kaya-karagaya-royals-to-korea-and-japa/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.nippon.com/en/nipponblog/m00079/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3214" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="637" RevisionGUID="a6a87ac4-c9a2-4256-b0ea-985f33903937" CreationDate="2015-05-11T11:08:40.940" UserId="111" Comment="integrated comments into text" Text="In the 16th-century chinese classic *Journey to the West* by Wu Cheng'en, the Jade Emperor is depicted as ruling over Heavens the way an actual human emperor would rule over a country. Complaints are brought to him and he rules by decrees and ordinances, in a very bureaucratic way. Everyone in Heaven has a specific job to do and need to report on said job to him. Slackers are shown to be punished severely.  &#xD;&#xA;The Jade Emperor is also shown to be sometimes proud, inflexible and short-tempered. This depiction seems peculiar to me: one would expect the ruler of Heaven to show some temperance, leniency and humility, and the Heaven that the Immortals longed for to be a little more relaxing.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Additionally, the powers of the Jade Emperor seems to be purely (as for a human emperor) its authority. When he decides to stop Sun Wukong he has to send an army after him. When Sun Wukong wrecks the Peach Banquet, he has to order an investigation to know what happens, etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This contrasts a lot with the depiction of the Buddha in the book, who manage to trick Sun Wukong to be trapped under his hand, that he then transforms into a mountain. This contrast lead me to think that maybe the depiction of the Jade Emperor and his Heaven is biased.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now I'm aware that the author veers frequently away from the canon of chinese mythology (even if most of the novel is just a rewriting of classic folkloric tales), but how far does the depiction of the Jade Emperor and his Heaven deviate from the canonical chinese mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3216" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="636" RevisionGUID="b4bb953a-1982-4fc0-af27-76d51ce4a8be" CreationDate="2015-05-11T13:24:11.010" UserId="11" Comment="edited body" Text="The actual lyric is:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I call you all  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; To Woden's Hall,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Your temples round  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; With ivy bound  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In goblets crown'd,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And plenteous bowls of burnish'd gold,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Where ye shall laugh  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And dance and quaff  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The juice that makes the Britons bold&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To figure this out, what is Woden's Hall? The simplest source for this is Wikipedia - though it's corroborated in many places:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In wider Germanic mythology and paganism, Odin was known in Old English as Wóden, in Old Saxon as Wōden, and in Old High German as Wuotan or Wodan, all stemming from the reconstructed Proto-Germanic theonym *wōđanaz.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, Woden's Hall is almost certainly [Valhalla](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valhalla), a hall where the fiercest Nordic warriors would sit around waiting for [Ragnarok](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar%C3%B6k). So what is Valhalla like, as far magic drink is like? For that, we go to the Poetic Edda:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 23. Five hundred doors | and forty there are,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; I ween, in Valhall's walls;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eight hundred fighters | through one door fare  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; When to war with the wolf they go.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 24. Five hundred rooms | and forty there are  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; I ween, in Bilskirnir built;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Of all the homes | whose roofs I beheld,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; My son's the greatest meseemed.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 25. Heithrun is the goat | who stands by Heerfather's hall,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And the branches of Lærath she bites;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **The pitcher she fills | with the fair, clear mead,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ne'er fails the foaming drink.**   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Poetic Edda, translated by Henry Adams Bellows, p. 94](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe06.htm) &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So: the juice that makes the Briton's bold is probably referring to the mead served by the magic goat Heithrun in Odin's Valhalla." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3218" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="640" RevisionGUID="23c4a04a-9219-4d7a-9b23-038b1995f17b" CreationDate="2015-05-11T14:19:16.030" UserId="11" Text="#Not really, no.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Adam of Bremen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesta_Hammaburgensis_ecclesiae_pontificum) describes a [temple at Uppsala](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_at_Uppsala) to Thor, Odin and Frey:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; xxvi (26) That folk has a very famous temple called Uppsala, situated not far from the city of Sigtuna and Björkö. In this temple, entirely decked out in gold, the people worship the status of their gods in such wise that the mightiest of them, **Thor, occupies a throne in the middle of the chamber; Wotan and Frikko have places on either side....**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; xxvii (27). **For all their gods** there are appointed priests to offer sacrifices for the people. If plague and famine threaten, a libation is poured to the idol Thor; if war, to Wotan; if marriages are to be celebrated, to Frikko.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [History of the Archibishops of Hamburg-Bremen, Tschan, F.J., 207-208](http://www.amazon.com/History-Archbishops-Hamburg-Bremen-Adam-Bremen/dp/0231125755)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, Wikipedia says the existence of this temple is not corroborated by archaelogical evidence. However, there is other evidence supporting the lack of a patron; we have this passage from [*Germania*, by Gaius Cornelius Tacitus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germania_(book)):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Germans, however, do not consider it consistent with the grandeur of celestial beings to confine the gods within walls, or to liken them to the form of any human countenance. They consecrate woods and groves, and they apply the names of deities to the abstraction which they see only in spiritual worship.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Germania, Tacitus, 9](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0083:chapter=9&amp;highlight=walls)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The same source also says that they did not even really have cities (with which to have patron gods):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is well known that the nations of Germany have no cities, and that they do not even tolerate closely contiguous dwellings. They live scattered and apart, just as a spring, a meadow, or a wood has attracted them. Their villages they do not arrange in our fashion, with the buildings connected and joined together, but every person surrounds his dwelling with an open space, either as a precaution against the disasters of fire, or because they do not know how to build.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Germania, Tacitus, 16](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0083%3Achapter%3D16)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further, it seems that the worship sites are distributed all over Scandinavia for the same gods:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *vé* (ON, 'shrine'). The term derives from Germanic *\*wtha* and designates heathen shrines and sacred places in the widest sense of the word. Even the homes of the gods in mythological poetry of the *Edda* (*Vafthruthnismol*, 51) are called *vé*, and the word occurs repeatedly in skaldic poetry....&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Place-names reveal the wide distribution of shrines with the name *vé* in Scandinavia: in Sweden there are more than 80 place-names based on *-vé*, 18 of them found with the name of the god Ullr, 16 with Skaði, 8 with Freyr, but only 4 with Odin and 2 with Thor. In addition to this there are a large number of place-names based on *-vé* which use geographical elements (e.g. Visby). In Denmark, on the other hand, all 5 place names based on *-vé* are combined with Odin (e.g. Odense). Most of the few Norwegian place names called Ve are not compound, and in Iceland there are none whatsoever.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [A Dictionary of Modern Mythology, Simek, 355](http://www.amazon.com/Dictionary-Northern-Mythology-Rudolf-Simek/dp/0859915131)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Given the existence of temples to multiple gods at once, the lack of cities throughout the region with which to be patron cities, and the existence of many shrines to the same gods distributed all over scandinavia, it doesn't seem as if there were any patron **cities** or **regions** to one particular god; though there were smaller shrines and geographic formations that were dedicated to one god." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3220" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="620" RevisionGUID="b378ba56-c8b3-4479-b0c9-c072cb49199b" CreationDate="2015-05-11T15:00:11.620" UserId="183" Comment="Religious addition." Text="I found [an interesting site](http://www.behindthename.com/) for comparing names. I can't trace the exact source(s) used for all four names, but the [references](http://www.behindthename.com/info/references) given for the entire site may prove useful (and impossible to scroll through, admittedly).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **[Adam:](http://www.behindthename.com/name/adam)** Originally from the Hebrew אדם, &quot;'adam&quot;, meaning &quot;man&quot;.&#xD;&#xA; - **[Eve:](http://www.behindthename.com/name/eve)** Originally from the Hebrew חַוָּה, &quot;chawwah&quot;, derived from חוה,&quot;chawah&quot;, meaning &quot;to breathe&quot;, or חיה, &quot;chayah&quot;, meaning &quot;to live&quot;.&#xD;&#xA; - **[Ask:](http://www.behindthename.com/name/ask)** Originally from the Old Norse &quot;askr&quot;, meaning &quot;ash tree&quot;.&#xD;&#xA; - **[Embla:](http://www.behindthename.com/name/embla)** Originally from the Old Norse &quot;almr&quot;, meaning &quot;elm&quot;. The origin of &quot;Embla&quot; is less certain; other scholars give it as [&quot;water pot&quot;](http://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/others/ask-and-embla/).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Old Norse](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Norse) is, at heart, an [Indo-European language](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages). [Hebrew](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language), on the other hand, is an [Afro-Asiatic language](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afroasiatic_languages). Given that these two families are extremely different, it appears that their last common ancestral language would have to be millennia ago. Old Norse dates back less than 1,000 years ago, while Hebrew, from its earliest forms, is about 3,000 years old.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There seems to be no connection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, as [Dolda2000 writes](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/27/adam-and-eve-vs-ask-and-embla/620#comment2805_620), [Christianity existed in Scandinavia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianization_of_Scandinavia) prior to the writing down of some of these tales, although perhaps not before their inception." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3221" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="630" RevisionGUID="549d9bd5-7d1f-4bf8-a312-4e7f86e6c43c" CreationDate="2015-05-11T15:15:18.950" UserId="183" Comment="added 74 characters in body" Text="In [the fourth branch of the Mabinogion](http://www.mabinogi.net/math.htm), Gwydion and company move through the areas surrounding the court of Dryfed after receiving pigs from Pryderi:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; That night they made it as far as the uplands of Ceredigion - and the place [where they stopped] is still called 'Mochdref' because of that. The next day they went on their way [and] they came through Elenid. That night they were between Keri and Arwystli, in a township that is also called 'Mochtref' for that reason. And thense they went onwards, and that night they came to a commote in Powys which is likewise called 'Mochnant' after that incident, and they were there for the night. And from there they went on as far as the cantref of Rhos, and there they were that night in a town still known as 'Mochtref'.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Mochdref&quot; literally translates to &quot;Pig town&quot;, and &quot;Mochnant&quot; literally translates to &quot;Pig valley&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The same thing later happens at a town thereafter known as Creuwyryon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What were the original names of the four places thereafter known as Mochdref, Mochtref, Mochnant and Mochtref?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3223" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="641" RevisionGUID="6bae4fb1-cc70-4f24-b30d-7dad5dc6eaf7" CreationDate="2015-05-11T15:38:49.140" UserId="183" Text="In [the fourth branch of the Mabiogion](http://www.mabinogi.net/math.htm), Lleu Llaw Gyffes reveales to Blodeuedd that he can only be killed in a certain way.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'Will you, for God's sake and mine, tell me by what means you might be killed? Since my memory is a better safeguard than yours.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'I'll tell you gladly,' he said 'It is not easy,' he continued 'to kill me by a blow . It would be necessary to spend a year making the spear to strike me with - and without making any of it [at any other time] except when one was at mass on Sundays.' &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'And is that certain?' she asked.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'It's certain, God knows,' he replied 'I cannot be killed inside a house, nor outside,' he continued 'I cannot be killed on horseback or on foot.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'Aye,' said she '[so] in what way can you be killed?'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'I'll tell you,' he replied. 'By making a bath for me by the side of a river, making a curved, slatted roof over the tub, and thatching that well and without [leaving] any gaps. And bringing a buck,' he continued 'and putting it next to the tub, and me putting one of my feet on the buck's back, and the other one on the side of the tub. Whoever would strike me [while I am] like that would bring about my death.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is it that Lleu can only be killed in this manner? Is it because of the [tyngeds](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tynged) placed upon him by Arianrhod?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The exact details of said tyngeds, as they concern Lleu's ultimate fate, are not revealed earlier in the story." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3224" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="641" RevisionGUID="6bae4fb1-cc70-4f24-b30d-7dad5dc6eaf7" CreationDate="2015-05-11T15:38:49.140" UserId="183" Text="Why is it that Lleu Llaw Gyffes can only be killed in a certain way?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3225" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="641" RevisionGUID="6bae4fb1-cc70-4f24-b30d-7dad5dc6eaf7" CreationDate="2015-05-11T15:38:49.140" UserId="183" Text="|welsh|mabinogion|magic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3226" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="642" RevisionGUID="f18f93cc-48f5-4610-b317-8038714c3734" CreationDate="2015-05-11T15:57:54.530" UserId="11" Text="First, note that the first known mention of Ask and Embla is in the [*Völuspá, in the Poetic Edda*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lusp%C3%A1):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 17. Then from the throng | did three come forth,  &#xD;&#xA;From the home of the gods, | the mighty and gracious;  &#xD;&#xA;Two without fate | on the land they found,  &#xD;&#xA;Ask and Embla, | empty of might.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 18. Soul they had not, | sense they had not,  &#xD;&#xA;Heat nor motion, | nor goodly hue;  &#xD;&#xA;Soul gave Othin, | sense gave Hönir,  &#xD;&#xA;Heat gave Lothur | and goodly hue.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 19. An ash I know, | Yggdrasil its name,  &#xD;&#xA;With water white | is the great tree wet;  &#xD;&#xA;Thence come the dews | that fall in the dales,  &#xD;&#xA;Green by Urth's well | does it ever grow. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source:[Völuspá, The Poetic Edda, tr. Henry Adams Bellows 17-19](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe03.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Obviously, it's difficult to analyze the comparative nature of a question like this without being a well versed scholar in the authorship of the original myths. Fortunately, [Henry Adams Bellows](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Adams_Bellows) has already done such an analysis in the introduction to the Völuspá:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This final passage, in particular, has caused wide differences of opinion as to the date and character of the poem. That the poet was heathen and not Christian seems almost beyond dispute; there is an intensity and vividness in almost every stanza which no archaizing Christian could possibly have achieved. On the other hand, the evidences of Christian influence are sufficiently striking to outweigh the arguments of Finnur Jonsson, Müllenhoff and others who maintain that the Voluspo is purely a product of heathendom. The roving Norsemen of the tenth century, very few of whom had as yet accepted Christianity, were nevertheless in close contact with Celtic races which had already been converted, and in many ways the Celtic influence was strongly felt. *It seems likely, then, that the Voluspo was the work of a poet living chiefly in Iceland, though possibly in the &quot;Western Isles,&quot; in the middle of the tenth century, a vigorous believer in the old gods, and yet with an imagination active enough to be **touched by the vague tales of a different religion** emanating from his neighbor Celts.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source:[Völuspá, The Poetic Edda, tr. Henry Adams Bellows, Intr.](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe03.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This suggests to me that, even though the author was decidedly not a Christian, it is entirely possible, and even likely, that the author used the Adam and Eve myth as inspiration for the Ask and Embla story. Note also that Ask and Embla were created out of trees (Ash and Elm), reminscient of the *Garden* of Eden but giving it an Icelandic spin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 17. Here the poem resumes its course after the interpolated section. Probably, however, something has been lost, for there is no apparent connection between the three giant-maids of stanza 8 and the three gods, Othin, Hönir and Lothur, who in stanza 17 go forth to create man and woman. The word &quot;three&quot; in stanzas 9 and 17 very likely confused some early reciter, or perhaps the compiler himself. Ask and Embla: ash and elm; Snorri gives them simply as the names of the first man and woman, but says that the gods made this pair out of trees.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source:[Völuspá, The Poetic Edda, tr. Henry Adams Bellows, 17 footnotes](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe03.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3227" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="633" RevisionGUID="33f73b30-f11f-4052-9ec6-e865c4b3be29" CreationDate="2015-05-11T16:00:48.910" UserId="11" Comment="added 11 characters in body" Text="I haven't been able to find any reference for fairy men marrying human women, or the existence of full-sized fairy men *at all*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that the Tylwyth Teg only ever kidnapped human boys, not girls. This seems to support this (emphasis mine):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mr. John Jones speaks very little English, and Mr. John Rees, of the Council School, acted as our interpreter. This is the testimony:--&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pygmy-sized 'Tylwyth Teg'.--'I was born and bred where there was tradition that the Tylwyth Teg lived in holes in the hills, and that none of these Tylwyth Teg was taller than three to four feet. It was a common idea that many of the Tylwyth Teg, forming in a ring, would dance and sing out on the mountain-sides, or on the plain, and that if children should meet with them at such a time they would lose their way and never get out of the ring. If the Tylwyth Teg fancied any particular child they would always keep that child, taking off its clothes and putting them on one of their own children, which was then left in its place. **They took only boys, never girls.'**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Human-sized 'Tylwyth Teg'.--'A special sort of Tylwyth Teg used to come out of lakes and dance, and their *line looks enticed **young men** to follow them back into the lakes, and there marry one of them. If the husband wished to leave the lake he had to go without his fairy wife.* This sort of Tylwyth Teg were as big as ordinary people; and they were often seen riding out of the lakes and back again on horses.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Fairy-Faith in Celtic Countries, By W. Y. Evans-Wentz, 148](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/ffcc/ffcc124.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This passage, coupled with the fact that I haven't been able to find *any* stories to the contrary, suggests to me that there are no male fairies to marry human women." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3238" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="638" RevisionGUID="6912523b-bd17-495f-b916-c2bc026d1ff8" CreationDate="2015-05-11T19:31:43.380" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="title more relevant" Text="What are the origins of the mythic Shachihoko?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3239" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="545" RevisionGUID="ded188c4-75fc-43f0-aee0-ac836abccab3" CreationDate="2015-05-11T19:38:23.600" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="quote does not need to be so long" Text="In the story Culhwch (sometimes spelled Kilhwch) and Olwen, the story is interrupted by a seemingly endless list of character's names:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I seek it from Kai, and Bedwyr, and Greidawl Galldonyd, and Gwythyr&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the son of Greidawl, and Greid the son of Eri, and Kynddelig&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kyvarwydd, and Tathal Twyll Goleu, and Maelwys the son of Baeddan, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Crychwr the son of Nes, and Cubert the son of Daere, and Percos the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; son of Poch, and Lluber Beuthach, and Corvil Bervach, and Gwynn the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; son of Nudd, and ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Culhwch and Olwen, AncientTexts.org][1])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(That list doesn't stop; it goes on for several pages [*literally*].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the purpose of listing these seemingly random characters? Most of them don't even appear again later in the story. Why would any storyteller do this?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/culhwch.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3240" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="644" RevisionGUID="6a250c44-a260-4cfa-9107-68c023f66802" CreationDate="2015-05-11T20:11:23.300" UserId="18" Text="One of Studio Ghibli's (excellent) films, named Princess Mononoke, has depictions of ***kodama***:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![screenshot from Princess Mononoke depicting kodama][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Japanese folklore, kodama are tree spirits that inhabit trees that are older than 100 years.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the collection of yōkai depictions, the Gazu Hyakki Yagyō by Toriyama Sekien, under the title 木魅 (&quot;kodama&quot;), an aged man and woman are depicted standing alongside the trees, and here it is stated that when a tree has passed a hundred years of age, a divine spirit would come dwell inside it, and show its appearance.&lt;sup&gt;[[6]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kodama_%28spirit%29#cite_note-6)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This depiction mentioned here is this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What the Wikipedia article does not answer, possibly doesn't even touch on, is the origin of the kodama. I have two very related questions on this matter:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- What myth (if there is one) first describes or talks about kodama?&#xD;&#xA;- Is there a myth that talks about where the kodama came from? If so, what is their origin?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In essence, **what is the original myth?** and **where did they come from?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/PoqwZ.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/C5MjM.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3241" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="644" RevisionGUID="6a250c44-a260-4cfa-9107-68c023f66802" CreationDate="2015-05-11T20:11:23.300" UserId="18" Text="What is the origin of the Japanese Kodama?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3242" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="644" RevisionGUID="6a250c44-a260-4cfa-9107-68c023f66802" CreationDate="2015-05-11T20:11:23.300" UserId="18" Text="|japanese|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3243" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="591" RevisionGUID="29e0c0ab-5fc8-42c5-8f7c-e3ff94c961af" CreationDate="2015-05-11T20:32:08.090" UserId="11" Comment="deleted 32 characters in body" Text="##The Father is the deity Tien... but not really.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Firstly, &quot;Heaven&quot; (天, tian) refers to the supreme sky deity. Sinologist [Herrlee Glessner Creel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herrlee_Creel) says in [The Origins of Statecraft in China:](http://books.google.com/books/about/The_Origins_of_Statecraft_in_China.html?id=F5d1mQEACAAJ)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For three thousand years it has been believed that from time **immemorial all Chinese revered T'ien 天, &quot;Heaven,&quot; as the highest deity,** and that this same deity was also known as Ti 帝 or Shang Ti 上帝. But the new materials that have become available in the present century, and especially the Shang inscriptions, make it evident that this was not the case. It appears rather that T'ien is not named at all in the Shang inscriptions, which instead refer with great frequency to Ti or Shang Ti. T'ien appears only with the Chou, and was apparently a Chou deity. After the conquest the Chou considered T'ien to be identical with the Shang deity Ti (or Shang Ti), much as the Romans identified the Greek Zeus with their Jupiter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, in China this phrase **&quot;Son of Heaven&quot; should not be taken literally.** In [Heritage of China: Contemporary Perspectives on Chinese Civilization](http://books.google.com/books/about/Heritage_of_China.html?id=zm6Sm64y5CwC), it states:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The ruler soon bore a new title that was based on the legitimating concept of the Mandate of Heaven: the Son of Heaven. The term **was not taken in the literal sense to mean that the Chou king was descended from Heaven** and therefore divine, but it did convey the idea that the King had been chosen by Heaven. Just as lineage heads were patrimonially responsible to the Chou king, so too was he responsible, as a son, to Heaven, who could withdraw the mandate and confer it on a more deserving, that is, a more morally responsible, ruling house." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3246" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="181" RevisionGUID="48f5fc0b-cd87-4b95-a044-85fda6e94228" CreationDate="2015-05-11T21:06:56.293" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 6 characters in body; edited tags" Text="In which story we can find information about the Plant of Everlasting Youth and what kind of plant it was?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did it give immortality or something else?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3247" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="181" RevisionGUID="48f5fc0b-cd87-4b95-a044-85fda6e94228" CreationDate="2015-05-11T21:06:56.293" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 6 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|sumerian|gilgamesh|immortality|plants|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3248" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="31" RevisionGUID="f3234a03-13b9-425e-a55b-298273fa4685" CreationDate="2015-05-11T21:08:21.817" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body; edited tags" Text="I'm assuming that the Gilgamesh myth is fairly distinct from the Mesoamerican Fountain of Youth and the Hindu *Soma*, but are there any corroborating myths or other research into the details of the plant in Gilgamesh?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The myth itself has the plant growing in or under water, and so has obvious connections with the lotus. Was the lotus a possibility for the time and region of the story?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3249" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="31" RevisionGUID="f3234a03-13b9-425e-a55b-298273fa4685" CreationDate="2015-05-11T21:08:21.817" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|sumerian|gilgamesh|flood-myth|immortality|plants|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3250" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="641" RevisionGUID="7c4021fc-18ce-46a8-b5a4-87ac1dea3163" CreationDate="2015-05-11T22:00:06.133" UserId="183" Comment="Grammar; made some bits more concise." Text="In [the fourth branch of the Mabiogion](http://www.mabinogi.net/math.htm), Lleu Llaw Gyffes revealed to Blodeuedd that he can only be killed in a certain way.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'Will you, for God's sake and mine, tell me by what means you might be killed? Since my memory is a better safeguard than yours.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'I'll tell you gladly,' he said 'It is not easy,' he continued 'to kill me by a blow . It would be necessary to spend a year making the spear to strike me with - and without making any of it [at any other time] except when one was at mass on Sundays.' &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'And is that certain?' she asked.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'It's certain, God knows,' he replied 'I cannot be killed inside a house, nor outside,' he continued 'I cannot be killed on horseback or on foot.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'Aye,' said she '[so] in what way can you be killed?'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'I'll tell you,' he replied. 'By making a bath for me by the side of a river, making a curved, slatted roof over the tub, and thatching that well and without [leaving] any gaps. And bringing a buck,' he continued 'and putting it next to the tub, and me putting one of my feet on the buck's back, and the other one on the side of the tub. Whoever would strike me [while I am] like that would bring about my death.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why could Lleu only be killed in this manner? Was it because of the [tyngeds](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tynged) placed upon him by Arianrhod?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The exact details of said tyngeds, as they concern Lleu's ultimate fate, are not revealed earlier in the story." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3251" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="641" RevisionGUID="7c4021fc-18ce-46a8-b5a4-87ac1dea3163" CreationDate="2015-05-11T22:00:06.133" UserId="183" Comment="Grammar; made some bits more concise." Text="Why could Lleu Llaw Gyffes only be killed in a certain way?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3255" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="645" RevisionGUID="1f399614-732c-4112-85f1-f595d92d7ce4" CreationDate="2015-05-11T22:06:16.777" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3256" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="646" RevisionGUID="cd3fa03b-a285-45dd-858f-4e4f265993bf" CreationDate="2015-05-11T22:06:16.777" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3257" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="647" RevisionGUID="a212bffb-038a-4088-ae1e-246503c73512" CreationDate="2015-05-11T23:55:07.763" UserDisplayName="user124" Text="One of my favourite Japanese myths.  According to the 百物語怪談会 Hyakumonogatari Kaidankai webpage [Kodama – The Tree Spirit][1],&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In ancient times, kodama were said to be kami, nature dieties that dwelled in trees. Some believed that kodama were not linked to a single tree but could move nimbly through the forest, traveling freely from tree to tree.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, it seems that the sounds of the forests were related to the kodama:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But they were also a sound. Echoes that reverberated through mountains and valleys were said to be kodama. The sound of a tree crashing in the woods was also said to be the plaintive cry of a kodama. (In modern times this mountain echo is associated with the yokai yamabiko and not with kodama).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In ancient times, their form was either considered to be invisible or indistinguishable from the trees themselves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The oldest known reference is from the 10th century CE (Heian period) in the Wamuryorui Jyusho (和名類聚抄; Japanese Names for Things; written 931 – 938 CE), this was a dictionary of sorts:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  listed 古多万 as the Japanese word for spirits of the trees. Another Heian era book, Genji Monogatari (源氏物語; The Tale of Genji), uses木魂 to describe kodama as sort of tree-dwelling goblin. Genji Monogatari also uses the phrase “either oni or kami or kitsune or kodama,” showing that these four spirits were thought to be separate entities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;During the Edo era, the kodama became 'humanised' and even stated that they could change their form to be human.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://hyakumonogatari.com/2012/08/05/kodama-the-tree-spirit/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3258" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="641" RevisionGUID="f1d09891-2a88-4cd3-8397-2ca7c8c96270" CreationDate="2015-05-12T00:18:32.603" UserId="183" Comment="Typo." Text="In [the fourth branch of the Mabinogion](http://www.mabinogi.net/math.htm), Lleu Llaw Gyffes revealed to Blodeuedd that he can only be killed in a certain way.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'Will you, for God's sake and mine, tell me by what means you might be killed? Since my memory is a better safeguard than yours.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'I'll tell you gladly,' he said 'It is not easy,' he continued 'to kill me by a blow . It would be necessary to spend a year making the spear to strike me with - and without making any of it [at any other time] except when one was at mass on Sundays.' &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'And is that certain?' she asked.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'It's certain, God knows,' he replied 'I cannot be killed inside a house, nor outside,' he continued 'I cannot be killed on horseback or on foot.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'Aye,' said she '[so] in what way can you be killed?'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'I'll tell you,' he replied. 'By making a bath for me by the side of a river, making a curved, slatted roof over the tub, and thatching that well and without [leaving] any gaps. And bringing a buck,' he continued 'and putting it next to the tub, and me putting one of my feet on the buck's back, and the other one on the side of the tub. Whoever would strike me [while I am] like that would bring about my death.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why could Lleu only be killed in this manner? Was it because of the [tyngeds](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tynged) placed upon him by Arianrhod?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The exact details of said tyngeds, as they concern Lleu's ultimate fate, are not revealed earlier in the story." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3263" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="646" RevisionGUID="f6490486-fb64-4fc2-834c-c1272891c0e9" CreationDate="2015-05-12T02:23:22.933" UserId="11" Comment="added 77 characters in body" Text="For questions that ask for a canonical reference about a commonly known myth." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3264" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="646" RevisionGUID="f6490486-fb64-4fc2-834c-c1272891c0e9" CreationDate="2015-05-12T02:23:22.933" Comment="Proposed by 11 approved by 183, 79 edit id of 183" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3266" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="648" RevisionGUID="8fbe1de7-dd8f-4592-b385-e84e37849ced" CreationDate="2015-05-12T05:07:47.160" UserId="232" Text="Robert Graves wrote the widely published book _Greek Myths_.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have heard that classicists dispute that his account of the myths is valid.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are Graves' myths mythologically valid, and for what purpose?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3267" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="648" RevisionGUID="8fbe1de7-dd8f-4592-b385-e84e37849ced" CreationDate="2015-05-12T05:07:47.160" UserId="232" Text="Is Robert Graves' Greek Myths considered mythically trustworthy by mythographers?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3268" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="648" RevisionGUID="8fbe1de7-dd8f-4592-b385-e84e37849ced" CreationDate="2015-05-12T05:07:47.160" UserId="232" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3272" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="649" RevisionGUID="7470f073-a257-4be0-90af-a794d8a12179" CreationDate="2015-05-12T05:47:14.090" UserId="233" Text="The Judeo/Christian system of heaven is very organised with different angels, class of angels, prophets, and today ministers, pastors, bishops, etc. They each have a role.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jesus for example is placed in charge.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Seraphims guarding the gate of Eden.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cherubs guarding the tablets.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Archangel Michael is in charge of the heavenly army.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Your question misses the point much in regard to actually placing God as God, rather than a personified character. For example, God created everything. What is everything? Everything must be part of God, for without God, you can't have anything created for all are part of &quot;him&quot;. Science explains this also with dark matter and matter only taking up a very small portion of it all. Planck scale and supersymetry regarding connectivity of all things.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, you look at Michael. Michael has El at the end of his name. El means God. We know this because God is called Eloh, translated in arabic as Allah. Michael then means that he is part of God or an aspect of God. So, God isn't really sending someone else, he is sending a personification of himself in the form of a very defined entity - Archangel Michael.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is some others... Gabriel, Rathael, Uriel.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another interesting point is Israel - which as you probably guessed means his people or El's people or God's people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Keep in mind that the bible has different canons and in different times the church will pull different canons to present to people based on the times. Currently the King James bible which is suited for a protestant world is presented.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Something was being presented here. God doesn't need to have a fight with anything as all things are &quot;himself&quot;. Rather what I can see is that some things were being presented such as the fight of light and dark (sunset and sunrise from Egyptian mythology) and principles of chess (black and white players), and also the fight between Ahura Mazda (good mind) verses Angra Mainyu (bad mind)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3273" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="648" RevisionGUID="773c0afb-95e8-442a-b153-9377c6398722" CreationDate="2015-05-12T05:48:35.950" UserId="232" Comment="added 324 characters in body" Text="Robert Graves wrote the widely published book _Greek Myths_.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have heard that classicists dispute that his account of the myths is valid, in the sense that either:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; * Graves' editing, translation and collation of the source texts lacks fidelity to those texts&#xD;&#xA; * His proposals of the underlying mythopoesis of the Greek myths is the pure invention of Graves himself and lacks any basis in textual or archaeological evidence &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are Graves' myths mythologically valid in these senses?  What purposes could they be used for?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3274" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="197" RevisionGUID="ab4a7775-e3a5-4b41-9aa8-f136560c7908" CreationDate="2015-05-12T06:00:55.063" UserId="-1" Comment="104" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Yannis&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:79,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ero Sɘnnin&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:124,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;santiago&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:58,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Vixen Populi&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:117,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Shevliaskovic&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="3275" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="650" RevisionGUID="29fe910e-c643-4432-96ea-53eb0ae7316f" CreationDate="2015-05-12T06:07:59.680" UserId="117" Text="According to Greek Mythology, Gaia had many children. All of them were with a partner, except for three:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Uranus&#xD;&#xA; - Pontus&#xD;&#xA; - Ourea&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it ever explained how these children were conceived?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3276" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="650" RevisionGUID="29fe910e-c643-4432-96ea-53eb0ae7316f" CreationDate="2015-05-12T06:07:59.680" UserId="117" Text="How were the first children of Gaia conceived?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3277" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="650" RevisionGUID="29fe910e-c643-4432-96ea-53eb0ae7316f" CreationDate="2015-05-12T06:07:59.680" UserId="117" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3278" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="649" RevisionGUID="05d1755f-ba5c-4a3f-9b87-cd30bec852f9" CreationDate="2015-05-12T06:32:52.630" UserId="233" Comment="added 247 characters in body" Text="The Judeo/Christian system of heaven is very organised with different angels, class of angels, prophets, and today ministers, pastors, bishops, etc. They each have a role.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jesus for example is placed in charge.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Seraphims guarding the gate of Eden.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cherubs guarding the tablets.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Archangel Michael is in charge of the heavenly army.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Your question misses the point much in regard to actually placing God as God, rather than a personified character. For example, God created everything. What is everything? Everything must be part of God, for without God, you can't have anything created for all are part of &quot;him&quot;. Science explains this also with dark matter and matter only taking up a very small portion of it all. Planck scale and supersymetry regarding connectivity of all things.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, you look at Michael. Michael has El at the end of his name. El means God. We know this because God is called Eloh, translated in arabic as Allah. Michael then means that he is part of God or an aspect of God. So, God isn't really sending someone else, he is sending a personification of himself in the form of a very defined entity - Archangel Michael.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is some others... Gabriel, Rathael, Uriel.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another interesting point is Israel - which as you probably guessed means his people or El's people or God's people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Keep in mind that the bible has different canons and in different times the church will pull different canons to present to people based on the times. Currently the King James bible which is suited for a protestant world is presented.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Something was being presented here. God doesn't need to have a fight with anything as all things are &quot;himself&quot;. Rather what I can see is that some things were being presented such as the fight of light and dark (sunset and sunrise from Egyptian mythology) and principles of chess (black and white players), and also the fight between Ahura Mazda (good mind) verses Angra Mainyu (bad mind).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was the total misrepresentation of this last point that made man put a man or womans colour to signify good and bad rather than the virtue of each person. A very unfortunate thing for all of humanity, but I am glad we all a bit wiser today." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3279" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="651" RevisionGUID="9bea42eb-83b4-405f-b49b-11fefca53aa6" CreationDate="2015-05-12T08:44:23.933" UserId="229" Text="Ourea I'd never heard of before, so I looked that one up. Turns out that was not one entity, but rather a word used to designate the mountains. [Wikipedia][1] names 10 of them, but other references I found seem to indicate [any mountain][2] was considered one of the Ourea. So this is effectively saying &quot;the Earth gave birth to the mountains&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That same Wikipedia reference claims they were the &quot;[parthenogenetic][3] offspring of Gaia alone&quot;, which means there was no partner; they just happened.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ourea&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Ourea.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3280" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="651" RevisionGUID="369a7d05-288f-4de0-9dec-85840d368107" CreationDate="2015-05-12T08:59:17.763" UserId="229" Comment="added 767 characters in body" Text="Ourea I'd never heard of before, so I looked that one up. Turns out that was not one entity, but rather a word used to designate the mountains. [Wikipedia][1] names 10 of them, but other references I found seem to indicate [any mountain][2] was considered one of the Ourea. So this is effectively saying &quot;the Earth gave birth to the mountains&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That same Wikipedia reference claims they were the &quot;[parthenogenetic][3] offspring of Gaia alone&quot;, which means there was no partner; they just happened.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm not sure if there's another original source that mentions them, but this is what [Hesiod][4] had to say:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Gaia (Earth) first bore starry Ouranos (Heaven), equal to herself,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to cover her on every side, and to be an ever-sure abiding-place for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the blessed gods. And she brought forth long Ourea (Mountains),&#xD;&#xA;&gt; graceful haunts of the goddess Nymphai who dwell amongst the glens of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the hills. She bore also the fruitless deep with his raging swell,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pontos (Sea), without sweet union of love.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That last phrase there is key. It appears to be applied to Pontos only, but since no partner is mentioned for the previous children either, I think we can assume it applies to them as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ourea&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Ourea.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3285" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="653" RevisionGUID="381fa227-d69f-415f-bb85-820507cfb14f" CreationDate="2015-05-12T14:55:17.610" UserId="111" Text="From the early Roman kings on&lt;sup&gt;*&lt;/sup&gt;, fifteen gods were given each an officially appointed priest, the *[flamen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamen)*, to take care of its cult in Rome.  &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;The three main priests (*flamines maiores*) were in charge of the cult of Jupiter, Mars and Quirinus, while 12 others (*flamines minores*) were in charge of the cult of Ceres, Vulcan, Flora, Pomona, Carmentis, Falacer, Furrina, Palatua, Portunes, Volturnus, and two others, unknown today.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We know this list primarily from Varro in *De lingua latina* who, when he wrote it (late Republic), already considered most of those gods to be obscure. So obscure that most of them are widely unknown today (two of which we even forgot the name of, apparently).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hence my question: how and why did those (fairly numerous) gods whose cult was actively maintained by appointed officials fell into oblivion during the Roman Republic? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;___&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;*&lt;/sup&gt; [According to Livy](http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/From_the_Founding_of_the_City/Book_1#20), Numa Pompilius (second king of Rome) founded this system of flamines.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3286" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="653" RevisionGUID="381fa227-d69f-415f-bb85-820507cfb14f" CreationDate="2015-05-12T14:55:17.610" UserId="111" Text="What happened to the flamines minores?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3287" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="653" RevisionGUID="381fa227-d69f-415f-bb85-820507cfb14f" CreationDate="2015-05-12T14:55:17.610" UserId="111" Text="|roman|flamines-minores|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3288" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="654" RevisionGUID="2e6f0a03-fe2b-48a0-9573-8a856d8a8486" CreationDate="2015-05-12T15:18:24.240" UserId="11" Text="I'm not entirely certain this means &quot;born on the moon&quot;. Most texts that I can find refer to Elfland as being subterranean:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The fairyland of the ballad tradition similarly existed in a kind of wilderness, albiet one suffused in preternatural light. As already indicated, Thomas Rhymer's Elfland **was situated in some sort of subterranean locale** wherein 'he saw neither sun nor moon / But heard the roaring of the see'. Likewise, the enchanted wood in 'Tam Lin' lacked solar and lunar illumination: 'Seven days she tarried there/Saw neither sun nor meen'.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Frequent mention is made of the location of the home of the elves in the witch trials, virtually every example placing the fairies **beside or inside hills.** The trial of Lady Fowlis or Katherine Ross in 1590 reported that she 'wald gang in Hillis to speik the elf folk'. In 1615, Jonet Drever was convicted for the 'fostering of ane bairne in the hill of Westray to the fary folk, callit of hir guid nichbouris'. In Shetland, Katherine Jonesdochter, tride in 1616, saw trows on a hill called Greinfaill.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Scottish Fairy Belief: A History; Henderson &amp; Cowan, 40-41](http://books.google.com/books?id=IokHsI7y008C)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This begs the question, are we even sure what is meant by moon-born? For that, we go to the [OED](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_English_Dictionary) (which actually mentions [King Arthur](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Arthur_(opera))):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; moon-born adj. chiefly poet.    &#xD;&#xA;&gt; (a) **born under the moon's influence;**  (b) originating from the moon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Oxford English Dictionary: moon-born](http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/121900?rskey=fAf8Bu&amp;result=1#eid35988663)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps what is meant here is not &quot;originating from the moon&quot;, but **born under the moon's influence**. This is back up by the else tended to operate at night:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The face of the country, too, might have some effect; as we should naturally attribute a less malicious disposition, and a less frightful appearance, to the **fays who glide by moon-light** through the oaks of Windsor, then those who haunt the solitary heaths and lofty mountains of the North. The fact at least is certain; and it has not escaped a late ingenious traveller, that the character of the Scottish Fairy is more harsh and terrific than that wish is ascribed to the elves of our sister kingdom.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; A beautiful reason is assigned by Fletcher for the fays frequenting streams and fountains: He tells us of   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; A virtuous well, about whose flowery banks   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; The nimble-footed Fairies dance their rounds,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; By the **pale moon-shine,** dipping oftentimes   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; Their stolen children, so to make them free   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; From dying flesh and dull mortality.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Faithful Shepherdess   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is sometimes accounted unlucky to pass such places, without performing some ceremony to avert the displeasure of the elves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Book of Scottish Ballads, Etc.; Alexander Whitelaw; 438-439](https://books.google.com/books?id=si1YAAAAcAAJ)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3289" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="653" RevisionGUID="3f278680-17ec-4b19-8fe9-d185eed75075" CreationDate="2015-05-12T15:21:12.103" UserId="11" Comment="Added link to the Varro wikipedia" Text="From the early Roman kings on&lt;sup&gt;*&lt;/sup&gt;, fifteen gods were given each an officially appointed priest, the *[flamen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamen)*, to take care of its cult in Rome.  &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;The three main priests (*flamines maiores*) were in charge of the cult of Jupiter, Mars and Quirinus, while 12 others (*flamines minores*) were in charge of the cult of Ceres, Vulcan, Flora, Pomona, Carmentis, Falacer, Furrina, Palatua, Portunes, Volturnus, and two others, unknown today.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We know this list primarily from [Varro in *De lingua latina*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Terentius_Varro) who, when he wrote it (late Republic), already considered most of those gods to be obscure. So obscure that most of them are widely unknown today (two of which we even forgot the name of, apparently).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hence my question: how and why did those (fairly numerous) gods whose cult was actively maintained by appointed officials fell into oblivion during the Roman Republic? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;___&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;*&lt;/sup&gt; [According to Livy](http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/From_the_Founding_of_the_City/Book_1#20), Numa Pompilius (second king of Rome) founded this system of flamines.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3290" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="653" RevisionGUID="0dac484d-2f8e-4f52-8372-2537cf6ce1cd" CreationDate="2015-05-12T15:23:05.977" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 5 characters in body" Text="From the early Roman kings on&lt;sup&gt;*&lt;/sup&gt;, fifteen gods were each given an officially appointed priest, the *[flamen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamen)*, to take care of its cult in Rome.  &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;The three main priests (*flamines maiores*) were in charge of the cult of Jupiter, Mars and Quirinus, while 12 others (*flamines minores*) were in charge of the cult of Ceres, Vulcan, Flora, Pomona, Carmentis, Falacer, Furrina, Palatua, Portunes, Volturnus, and two others, unknown today.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We know this list primarily from [Varro in *De lingua latina*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Terentius_Varro) who, when he wrote it (late Republic), already considered most of those gods to be obscure. So obscure that most of them are widely unknown today (two of which we even forgot the name of, apparently).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hence my question: how and why did those (fairly numerous) gods whose cult was actively maintained by appointed officials fall into oblivion during the Roman Republic? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;___&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;*&lt;/sup&gt; [According to Livy](http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/From_the_Founding_of_the_City/Book_1#20), Numa Pompilius (second king of Rome) founded this system of flamines.&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3291" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="650" RevisionGUID="b62fc517-80a7-4885-861c-f2e862ffba5c" CreationDate="2015-05-12T16:10:55.927" UserId="11" Comment="added 193 characters in body" Text="According to Greek Mythology, [Gaia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_(mythology)) had many children. All of them were with a partner, except for three:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Uranus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranus_(mythology))&#xD;&#xA; - [Pontus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontus_(mythology))&#xD;&#xA; - [Ourea](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ourea)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it ever explained how these children were conceived?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3292" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="629" RevisionGUID="b19bb107-9973-4a8f-8123-b228da6f48dc" CreationDate="2015-05-12T16:13:17.787" UserId="11" Comment="Added quote, updated link to be the proper time in the video" Text="I recently listened to [Purcell's &quot;King Arthur&quot;][1], and at one point in the libretto, Grimbald speaks of &quot;moon-born elves&quot; (at 19:25 in the linked video):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Let not a moon-born elf mislead ye   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; From your prey and from your glory;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This made me curious because I haven't previously heard of any particular connection between elves and the moon, at least not apart from the occasional affinity with the night in general.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any more wide-spread basis for elves originating from the moon somehow, or is &quot;moon-born&quot; some kind of more general term for deceitful creatures, or something else?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The whole libretto is available [here][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://youtu.be/byecmk9ANYs?t=1165&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.impresario.ch/libretto/libpurkin_e.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3293" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="655" RevisionGUID="89c3f8d9-5169-4231-a8f4-8a9acc3ecdbd" CreationDate="2015-05-12T17:17:53.237" UserId="42" Text="That's harder to answer that it might first appear.  The term Anunnaki (alternate spellings: Anunnaku, Anunna, Anuna) is applied inconsistently, and the meaning appears to shift over time.  They may be a term applied to a pantheon of gods of the heavens and the underworld, or the term may be used to refer to the underworld gods only, or it may refer specifically to seven underworld judges, among others.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The common thread seems to be that they are a group of gods, and they decide the fates of men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [Enki and the World Order](http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr113.htm) they are stated to be a set of gods who decide the fates.  Enki is clearly identified as an Anuna god here as well (not quoted).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Anuna, the great gods, have taken up dwellings in your midst, and consume their food in your giguna shrines with their single trees. Household Sumer, may your sheepfolds be built and your cattle multiply, may your giguna touch the skies. May your good temples reach up to heaven. May the Anuna determine the destinies in your midst.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [Enuma Elish](http://www.ancient.eu/article/225/) (tablet VI), Marduk divides the Anunna into 300 assigned to the heavens, and 300 to the netherworld:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; King Marduk divided the gods,  &#xD;&#xA;All the Anunnaki into upper and lower groups.  &#xD;&#xA;He assigned 300 in the heavens to guard the decrees of Anu  &#xD;&#xA;And appointed them as a guard.  &#xD;&#xA;Next he arranged the organization of the netherworld.  &#xD;&#xA;In heaven and netherworld he stationed 600 gods.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [Erra and Ishum](http://www.piney.com/Baberraishum.html), the Anunna appear in a similar fashion, but are now specifically the set of underworld deities, while the term Igigi is applied to the gods of the heavens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For that time I will govern and keep strong the regulation of heaven and earth,  &#xD;&#xA;&quot;I will go up to heaven and issue instructions to the Igigi gods,  &#xD;&#xA;&quot;I will go down to the depths and keep the Anunna gods in order.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [the Descent of Inanna](http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr141.htm) they are identified specifically as the seven judges of the underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then she made her sister Erec-ki-gala rise from her throne, and instead she sat on her throne. The Anuna, the seven judges, rendered their decision against her. They looked at her -- it was the look of death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And similarly, they also appear specifically as judges of the underworld in [the Epic of Gilgamesh](http://www.aina.org/books/eog/eog.pdf) (page 18)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When the Anunnaki, the judges, come together, and Mammetun the mother of&#xD;&#xA;destinies, together they decree the fates of men. Life and death they allot but the day of death they do not disclose&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The article [Anunna (Anunnaku, Anunnaki) (a group of gods)](http://oracc.museum.upenn.edu/amgg/listofdeities/anunna/) by Nicole Brisch provides some further details on the varying meaning of the term." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3294" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="655" RevisionGUID="87af35c3-ef7b-4568-93df-ea51d2d48c0b" CreationDate="2015-05-12T17:27:08.980" UserId="42" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="That's harder to answer that it might first appear.  The term Anunnaki (alternate spellings: Anunnaku, Anunna, Anuna) is applied inconsistently, and the meaning appears to shift over time.  It may be a term applied to a pantheon of the gods of the heavens and the underworld, or the term may be used to refer to the underworld gods only, or it may refer specifically to seven underworld judges, among others.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The common thread seems to be that they are a group of gods, and they decide the fates of men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [Enki and the World Order](http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr113.htm) they are stated to be a set of gods who decide the fates.  Enki is clearly identified as an Anuna god here as well (not quoted).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Anuna, the great gods, have taken up dwellings in your midst, and consume their food in your giguna shrines with their single trees. Household Sumer, may your sheepfolds be built and your cattle multiply, may your giguna touch the skies. May your good temples reach up to heaven. May the Anuna determine the destinies in your midst.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [Enuma Elish](http://www.ancient.eu/article/225/) (tablet VI), Marduk divides the Anunna into 300 assigned to the heavens, and 300 to the netherworld:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; King Marduk divided the gods,  &#xD;&#xA;All the Anunnaki into upper and lower groups.  &#xD;&#xA;He assigned 300 in the heavens to guard the decrees of Anu  &#xD;&#xA;And appointed them as a guard.  &#xD;&#xA;Next he arranged the organization of the netherworld.  &#xD;&#xA;In heaven and netherworld he stationed 600 gods.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [Erra and Ishum](http://www.piney.com/Baberraishum.html), the Anunna appear in a similar fashion, but are now specifically the set of underworld deities, while the term Igigi is applied to the gods of the heavens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For that time I will govern and keep strong the regulation of heaven and earth,  &#xD;&#xA;&quot;I will go up to heaven and issue instructions to the Igigi gods,  &#xD;&#xA;&quot;I will go down to the depths and keep the Anunna gods in order.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [the Descent of Inanna](http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr141.htm) they are identified specifically as the seven judges of the underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then she made her sister Erec-ki-gala rise from her throne, and instead she sat on her throne. The Anuna, the seven judges, rendered their decision against her. They looked at her -- it was the look of death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And similarly, they also appear specifically as judges of the underworld in [the Epic of Gilgamesh](http://www.aina.org/books/eog/eog.pdf) (page 18)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When the Anunnaki, the judges, come together, and Mammetun the mother of&#xD;&#xA;destinies, together they decree the fates of men. Life and death they allot but the day of death they do not disclose&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The article &quot;[Anunna (Anunnaku, Anunnaki) (a group of gods)](http://oracc.museum.upenn.edu/amgg/listofdeities/anunna/)&quot; by Nicole Brisch provides some further details on the varying meaning of the term." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3295" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="656" RevisionGUID="b4c6b4b3-3e23-4100-8329-3f0d79cda03a" CreationDate="2015-05-12T17:30:09.313" UserId="183" Text="In [*Roman Gods: A Conceptual Approach*](http://books.google.com/books?id=1zGZQnqWH2MC&amp;pg=PA62&amp;lpg=PA62&amp;dq=flamines+minores+end&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=kH9kZw1JJx&amp;sig=xde_rQdC6xmQbep2BOnE6-UGAtc&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=5RxSVZ-LKqOwsATL5oDwDw&amp;ved=0CEkQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&amp;q=flamines%20minores%20end&amp;f=false), Michael Lipka offers the following explanation:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Under the Empire, the focal force of the traditional foci of the traditional Republican cults disappeared. One indication of this disappearance is the well-known scarcity of references to the traditional *flamines* in imperial sources. **Even if we grant that these *flamines*, especially the *flamines minores*, may have been indifferent towards mentioning their priesthood in the inscriptions, or may rather have been interested in mentioning it in a different guise (because the flaminates themselves had no longer 'communicable prestigious potential'), this would only serve to prove that they had ceased to be significant personal foci of the deity.** This may have happened because the cult itself was in decline, or because the traditional focalization of the cult through the *flamines* had been abandoned or shifted elsewhere. Those *flamines* who were attested, may well owe their attestation to a certain popularity of the *feriae* of the god they represented, but statistics are too limited for further conclusions, although it is a fair guess to say that some flaminates existed until at least the beginning of the second century A.D.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This indicates that the *flamines* had fallen by an even grater extent during the time of the Roman Empire, after the Republic. Some of the reasoning expressed here, could be applied during the Republican period.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamen#Flamines_minores) has another explanation (uncited):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The flamines minores seem mostly connected to agriculture or local cults. The change to an urban way of life may explain why these deities lost their importance or fell into oblivion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One more explanation is given in [*A commentary on Cicero's oration De haruspicum responso*, by John O. Lenaghan](https://books.google.com/books?id=Rfl6MqQJpDwC&amp;pg=PA80&amp;lpg=PA80&amp;dq=flamines+minores+end&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=d4XSV1-6pn&amp;sig=lwwtnX4JCSn4Xr8vP3ANI3VdqdY&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=6DdSVa-7OouxggTqg4GQAw&amp;ved=0CDsQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&amp;q=flamines%20minores%20end&amp;f=false):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is also quite probable that all or many of the posts of the *flamines minores* were vacant at the end of the Republic, simply because they involved too many ritual observances and sanctions to be worthiwhile.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This last theory seems to be one of the more sound." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3296" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="656" RevisionGUID="013dacba-5fd8-415f-8834-7e97ffeff4c1" CreationDate="2015-05-12T17:43:03.890" UserId="18" Comment="Typos." Text="In [*Roman Gods: A Conceptual Approach*](http://books.google.com/books?id=1zGZQnqWH2MC&amp;pg=PA62&amp;lpg=PA62&amp;dq=flamines+minores+end&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=kH9kZw1JJx&amp;sig=xde_rQdC6xmQbep2BOnE6-UGAtc&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=5RxSVZ-LKqOwsATL5oDwDw&amp;ved=0CEkQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&amp;q=flamines%20minores%20end&amp;f=false), Michael Lipka offers the following explanation:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Under the Empire, the focal force of the traditional foci of the traditional Republican cults disappeared. One indication of this disappearance is the well-known scarcity of references to the traditional *flamines* in imperial sources. **Even if we grant that these *flamines*, especially the *flamines minores*, may have been indifferent towards mentioning their priesthood in the inscriptions, or may rather have been interested in mentioning it in a different guise (because the flaminates themselves had no longer 'communicable prestigious potential'), this would only serve to prove that they had ceased to be significant personal foci of the deity.** This may have happened because the cult itself was in decline, or because the traditional focalization of the cult through the *flamines* had been abandoned or shifted elsewhere. Those *flamines* who were attested, may well owe their attestation to a certain popularity of the *feriae* of the god they represented, but statistics are too limited for further conclusions, although it is a fair guess to say that some flaminates existed until at least the beginning of the second century A.D.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This indicates that the *flamines* had fallen by an even greater extent during the time of the Roman Empire, after the Republic. Some of the reasoning expressed here could be applied during the Republican period.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamen#Flamines_minores) has another explanation (uncited):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The flamines minores seem mostly connected to agriculture or local cults. The change to an urban way of life may explain why these deities lost their importance or fell into oblivion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One more explanation is given in [*A commentary on Cicero's oration De haruspicum responso*, by John O. Lenaghan](https://books.google.com/books?id=Rfl6MqQJpDwC&amp;pg=PA80&amp;lpg=PA80&amp;dq=flamines+minores+end&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=d4XSV1-6pn&amp;sig=lwwtnX4JCSn4Xr8vP3ANI3VdqdY&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=6DdSVa-7OouxggTqg4GQAw&amp;ved=0CDsQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&amp;q=flamines%20minores%20end&amp;f=false):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is also quite probable that all or many of the posts of the *flamines minores* were vacant at the end of the Republic, simply because they involved too many ritual observances and sanctions to be worthwhile.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This last theory seems to be one of the more sound." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3298" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="172" RevisionGUID="52cc5162-c90d-4ace-a479-eb63f7c804f0" CreationDate="2015-05-12T17:51:55.947" UserId="11" Comment="added 42 characters in body" Text="Who were the [Anunnaki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anunnaki)? Were they gods, demigods or different race? And what was their role?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How do we tell who they were?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3299" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="16" RevisionGUID="4bd6c66d-8415-42ff-bc14-8c0694affc5b" CreationDate="2015-05-12T17:56:00.637" UserId="11" Comment="Added wikipedia links" Text="The cultural exchange between the [Greeks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece) (under [Alexander](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great), at first) and the Buddhists of northwestern India is [known to have had impacts on both parties](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhism). I'm aware of some theological influences, at least, in that some features of [Mahayana](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahayana) (e.g. the existence of an elaborate pantheon) are thought to have been influenced by features of the ancient Greek religion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On a mythological level, though, I am unaware of any cases where a Greek narrative was altered to incorporate some mythological feature borrowed from the Buddhists, or vice versa. Were there any such cases? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3300" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="464" RevisionGUID="78881f1e-40ba-40a0-aea6-01d31448641c" CreationDate="2015-05-12T18:00:00.283" UserId="11" Comment="Added wikipedia links" Text="As I understand it, it was common practice for a playwright to retell a well-known story with the details changed to suit the playwright's needs.  A tidy way to avoid a lot of tedious exposition. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [Antigone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigone_(Sophocles)), this leads to some significantly different endings:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In [Sophocles'](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophocles) play, she is imprisoned and hangs herself, [Creon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creon) has a change of heart too late, and [Haemon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haemon) commits suicide. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In [Euripides'](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euripides) play, [Dionysus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus) intercedes, and everyone lives happily ever after. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In [Hyginus'](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaius_Julius_Hyginus) interpretation, Antigone is hidden away, and discovered years later, when she is finally executed by Haemon, in spite of intercession from [Heracles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heracles). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So artistic license aside, is there a canonical ending to the myth?  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3301" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="655" RevisionGUID="566531c6-1eae-4b7e-b3b3-4f87b0312757" CreationDate="2015-05-12T18:00:19.047" UserId="42" Comment="deleted 55 characters in body" Text="The term Anunnaki (alternate spellings: Anunnaku, Anunna, Anuna) is applied inconsistently, and the meaning appears to shift over time.  It may be a term applied to a pantheon of the gods of the heavens and the underworld, or the term may be used to refer to the underworld gods only, or it may refer specifically to seven underworld judges, among others.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The common thread seems to be that they are a group of gods, and they decide the fates of men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [Enki and the World Order](http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr113.htm) they are stated to be a set of gods who decide the fates.  Enki is clearly identified as an Anuna god here as well (not quoted).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Anuna, the great gods, have taken up dwellings in your midst, and consume their food in your giguna shrines with their single trees. Household Sumer, may your sheepfolds be built and your cattle multiply, may your giguna touch the skies. May your good temples reach up to heaven. May the Anuna determine the destinies in your midst.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [Enuma Elish](http://www.ancient.eu/article/225/) (tablet VI), Marduk divides the Anunna into 300 assigned to the heavens, and 300 to the netherworld:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; King Marduk divided the gods,  &#xD;&#xA;All the Anunnaki into upper and lower groups.  &#xD;&#xA;He assigned 300 in the heavens to guard the decrees of Anu  &#xD;&#xA;And appointed them as a guard.  &#xD;&#xA;Next he arranged the organization of the netherworld.  &#xD;&#xA;In heaven and netherworld he stationed 600 gods.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [Erra and Ishum](http://www.piney.com/Baberraishum.html), the Anunna appear in a similar fashion, but are now specifically the set of underworld deities, while the term Igigi is applied to the gods of the heavens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For that time I will govern and keep strong the regulation of heaven and earth,  &#xD;&#xA;I will go up to heaven and issue instructions to the Igigi gods,  &#xD;&#xA;I will go down to the depths and keep the Anunna gods in order.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [the Descent of Inanna](http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr141.htm) they are identified specifically as the seven judges of the underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then she made her sister Erec-ki-gala rise from her throne, and instead she sat on her throne. The Anuna, the seven judges, rendered their decision against her. They looked at her -- it was the look of death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And similarly, they also appear specifically as judges of the underworld in [the Epic of Gilgamesh](http://www.aina.org/books/eog/eog.pdf) (page 18)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When the Anunnaki, the judges, come together, and Mammetun the mother of&#xD;&#xA;destinies, together they decree the fates of men. Life and death they allot but the day of death they do not disclose&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The article &quot;[Anunna (Anunnaku, Anunnaki) (a group of gods)](http://oracc.museum.upenn.edu/amgg/listofdeities/anunna/)&quot; by Nicole Brisch provides some further details on the varying meaning of the term." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3302" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="655" RevisionGUID="5933fd65-6e89-49b4-8c3e-186ae87c38af" CreationDate="2015-05-12T18:07:51.510" UserId="42" Comment="added 51 characters in body" Text="The term Anunnaki (alternate spellings: Anunnaku, Anunna, Anuna) is applied inconsistently, and the meaning appears to shift over time.  It may be a term applied to a pantheon of the gods of the heavens and the underworld, or the term may be used to refer to the underworld gods only, or it may refer specifically to seven underworld judges, among others.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The common thread seems to be that they are a group of gods, and they decide the fates of men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [Enki and the World Order](http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr113.htm) they are stated to be a set of gods who decide the fates.  Enki is clearly identified as an Anuna god here as well (not quoted).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Anuna, the great gods, have taken up dwellings in your midst, and consume their food in your giguna shrines with their single trees. Household Sumer, may your sheepfolds be built and your cattle multiply, may your giguna touch the skies. May your good temples reach up to heaven. May the Anuna determine the destinies in your midst.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [Enuma Elish](http://www.ancient.eu/article/225/) (tablet VI), Marduk divides the Anunna into 300 assigned to the heavens, and 300 to the netherworld:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; King Marduk divided the gods,  &#xD;&#xA;All the Anunnaki into upper and lower groups.  &#xD;&#xA;He assigned 300 in the heavens to guard the decrees of Anu  &#xD;&#xA;And appointed them as a guard.  &#xD;&#xA;Next he arranged the organization of the netherworld.  &#xD;&#xA;In heaven and netherworld he stationed 600 gods.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [Erra and Ishum](http://www.piney.com/Baberraishum.html), the Anunna appear in a similar fashion, but are now specifically the set of underworld deities, while the term Igigi is applied to the gods of the heavens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For that time I will govern and keep strong the regulation of heaven and earth,  &#xD;&#xA;I will go up to heaven and issue instructions to the Igigi gods,  &#xD;&#xA;I will go down to the depths and keep the Anunna gods in order.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [the Descent of Inanna](http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr141.htm) they are identified specifically as the seven judges of the underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then she made her sister Erec-ki-gala rise from her throne, and instead she sat on her throne. The Anuna, the seven judges, rendered their decision against her. They looked at her -- it was the look of death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And similarly, they also appear specifically as judges of the underworld in [the Epic of Gilgamesh](http://www.aina.org/books/eog/eog.pdf) (page 18)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When the Anunnaki, the judges, come together, and Mammetun the mother of&#xD;&#xA;destinies, together they decree the fates of men. Life and death they allot but the day of death they do not disclose&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The article &quot;[Anunna (Anunnaku, Anunnaki) (a group of gods)](http://oracc.museum.upenn.edu/amgg/listofdeities/anunna/)&quot; by [Nicole Brisch](http://ccrs.ku.dk/staff/?pure=en/persons/440541) provides some further details on the varying meaning of the term." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3303" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="172" RevisionGUID="c61df3fb-708a-40dc-a342-d3516428ddfe" CreationDate="2015-05-12T18:36:25.413" UserId="11" Comment="Edited [this comment](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/172/who-were-the-anunnaki-according-to-sumerians-tales?noredirect=1#comment2849_172) into the question" Text="Who were the [Anunnaki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anunnaki)? Were they gods, demigods or different race? And what was their role?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How do we tell who they were?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am looking for primary or canonical sources that explain about the Annunaki.  Wikipedia doesn't have sufficient cites; usually they refer to some sources which are not available." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3304" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="172" RevisionGUID="c61df3fb-708a-40dc-a342-d3516428ddfe" CreationDate="2015-05-12T18:36:25.413" UserId="11" Comment="Edited [this comment](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/172/who-were-the-anunnaki-according-to-sumerians-tales?noredirect=1#comment2849_172) into the question" Text="|sumerian|mesopotamia|anunnaki|reference-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3305" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="146" RevisionGUID="da90139b-7f2b-4a8c-842f-7665eb70d092" CreationDate="2015-05-12T18:44:16.767" UserId="29" Comment="added 5 characters in body; edited title" Text="Did the ancient Greeks believe that the number 12 symbolized everything? Was it random that there were 12 main gods and no more (or less)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3306" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="146" RevisionGUID="da90139b-7f2b-4a8c-842f-7665eb70d092" CreationDate="2015-05-12T18:44:16.767" UserId="29" Comment="added 5 characters in body; edited title" Text="Why were there exactly 12 main Olympian Gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3307" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="148" RevisionGUID="e434704b-4a04-4611-ab95-9ed55d713947" CreationDate="2015-05-12T18:45:50.367" UserId="29" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="The number `12` is used in most religions as something holy and perfect. In every religion you can see that the number twelve is always present in main events or facts:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;e.g.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* **Greek Mythology**: Labours of Hercules, the Dodecatheon and twelve Titans, according to Hesiod.&#xD;&#xA;* **Christianity**: The 12 Disciples of Christ&#xD;&#xA;* **Norse Mythology**: Odin had 12 sons&#xD;&#xA;* **Islam**:  There are twelve Imams, legitimate successors of the Islamic prophet.&#xD;&#xA;* **Judaism**: 12 tribes of Israel.&#xD;&#xA;* **Sumerian Mythology**: 12 Major Gods &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are way too many examples where 12 is used and I it's probably because `12` had a special place for ancient people, since the use of the [Duodecimal][1] and [Sexagesimal][2] systems was widespread at the time and it's actually the first systems used in arithmetics. I have found no reference (and I believe there isn't any) as to **why** it is deemed a special number in a religious essence, apart from the fact that it had many mathematical properties, such as being the first number with six divisors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The number 12 is a **highly respected and practical** number. It has **many factors for such a low number**, so it is one of the lowest easily-divisible numbers. Number 11 is not divisible, number 10 only has two factors (2 and 5) meaning that if you measure anything in tens, you can only divide it into either halves or pairs. Number 9 only divides into 3, number 8 only into 2 and 4, number 7 is a prime number with no factors, number 6 only breaks down into half or thirds, number 5 is a prime, you can only halve number 4 or 2, and 3 and 1 don't divide and are so small you wouldn't want to measure things in them, anyway. **Number 12, however, divides into 6, 4, 3 and 2, giving it a large number of practical uses where things have to be divided up into whole numbers, from calendars to clocks.** As a result of all these factors, mathematicians get excited about the number 12 and apparently, they always have done! For example, **Pythagoras, the classical mathematics genius, teacher, and leader of a pagan religious movement, taught that the number 12 had divine, profound mystical meaning.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source: http://www.humanreligions.info/twelve.html#Maths&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duodecimal&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexagesimal" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3308" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="658" RevisionGUID="2ff9ce60-ce18-4f16-b994-7c57769530d9" CreationDate="2015-05-12T20:43:05.950" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="Who were the weapons makers for the Norse Gods? Was there a specific God like in Greek Mythology? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3309" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="658" RevisionGUID="2ff9ce60-ce18-4f16-b994-7c57769530d9" CreationDate="2015-05-12T20:43:05.950" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="Who were the weapons makers for the Norse Gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3310" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="658" RevisionGUID="2ff9ce60-ce18-4f16-b994-7c57769530d9" CreationDate="2015-05-12T20:43:05.950" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3311" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="659" RevisionGUID="997e502c-7821-429a-af7e-dd5de38f7c3b" CreationDate="2015-05-12T20:45:27.840" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="Did ancient Egyptian gods have weapons like the Greek Gods? If so, who made them?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3312" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="659" RevisionGUID="997e502c-7821-429a-af7e-dd5de38f7c3b" CreationDate="2015-05-12T20:45:27.840" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="Did ancient Egyptian gods have weapons like the Greek Gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3313" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="659" RevisionGUID="997e502c-7821-429a-af7e-dd5de38f7c3b" CreationDate="2015-05-12T20:45:27.840" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3317" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="659" RevisionGUID="032dc1a5-616d-4e8b-9211-94b29a57e8ab" CreationDate="2015-05-12T21:02:27.770" UserDisplayName="user28" Comment="added 55 characters in body" Text="Did ancient Egyptian gods have weapons like the Greek Gods? For instance Zeus's thunderbolt or Poseidon's trident? If so, who made them?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3318" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="658" RevisionGUID="54b5a27a-2781-4012-8197-ed1fdb793775" CreationDate="2015-05-12T21:16:21.620" UserId="183" Comment="edited body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Who were the weapons-makers for the Norse gods? Was there a specific god like in Greek mythology? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3319" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="658" RevisionGUID="54b5a27a-2781-4012-8197-ed1fdb793775" CreationDate="2015-05-12T21:16:21.620" UserId="183" Comment="edited body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Who were the weapons-makers for the Norse gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3320" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="658" RevisionGUID="54b5a27a-2781-4012-8197-ed1fdb793775" CreationDate="2015-05-12T21:16:21.620" UserId="183" Comment="edited body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|norse|weapons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3321" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="659" RevisionGUID="c3b33fc8-61cb-4862-afa6-db53dfea92a1" CreationDate="2015-05-12T21:22:22.450" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 5 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Did ancient Egyptian gods have weapons like the Greek gods, such as Zeus's thunderbolt or Poseidon's trident? If so, who made them?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3322" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="659" RevisionGUID="c3b33fc8-61cb-4862-afa6-db53dfea92a1" CreationDate="2015-05-12T21:22:22.450" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 5 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Did ancient Egyptian gods have weapons like the Greek gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3323" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="659" RevisionGUID="c3b33fc8-61cb-4862-afa6-db53dfea92a1" CreationDate="2015-05-12T21:22:22.450" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 5 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|egyptian|weapons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3324" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="661" RevisionGUID="9486f6ff-cc96-492e-be90-505bd02a8dbb" CreationDate="2015-05-12T21:39:36.547" UserId="197" Text="Who was the first person to translate part or all of Homer's works, the Iliad or the Odyssey, to Latin?  Have these translations survived to current times? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My original motivation for the question is the following.  Devecseri Gábor has written an epistle about the art of poetic translation addressed to Horace, the ancient Roman poet.  From this, it seems like Devecseri has considered Horace (as well as Babits Mihály) his master and role model in poetry and translation.  I had mistakenly assumed that this was because Horace has also translated the Homeric epics, but it turns out this was a false assumption. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3325" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="661" RevisionGUID="9486f6ff-cc96-492e-be90-505bd02a8dbb" CreationDate="2015-05-12T21:39:36.547" UserId="197" Text="Who has translated the Iliad or the Odyssey to Latin language first?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3326" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="661" RevisionGUID="9486f6ff-cc96-492e-be90-505bd02a8dbb" CreationDate="2015-05-12T21:39:36.547" UserId="197" Text="|iliad|odyssey|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3327" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="662" RevisionGUID="3320b108-39c2-4686-8fe9-fd67e8de14d0" CreationDate="2015-05-12T21:39:36.547" UserId="197" Text="[I have asked this question on the English Wikipedia Reference Desk a few months ago][wq].  This answer contains a copy of the answers volunteered there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**[Livius Andronicus][li]** (c. 284 – c. 204 BC) was possibly the first who translated the Odyssey into Latin, but his translation has not survived. There have been many Latin translations of Homer over the centuries, but the **oldest surviving** seems to be by **[Leontius Pilatus][le]** (died 1366): [see catalog entry of a modern publication of that translation][let].  [This answer contributed by [Lindert][ul].]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Educated Romans read Homer in the original Greek, so I'm not sure there was great demand for a written literary translation into Latin. There was the [Ilias Latina][il], which was kind of &quot;downmarket&quot; (not a full translation, and not very literary).  [This answer contributed by [AnonMoos][ua].]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Attius Labeo][al] was renowned for the badness of his translations of Homer, so there was clearly a market. [Comment by [Paul Barlow][up].]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[wq]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Humanities/2015_March_18#Did_Horace_translate_the_Iliad_or_Odyssey&#xD;&#xA;[li]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livius_Andronicus&#xD;&#xA;[le]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leontius_Pilatus&#xD;&#xA;[let]: http://swb.bsz-bw.de/DB=2.1/PPNSET?PPN=367138905&amp;INDEXSET=1&#xD;&#xA;[ul]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lindert&#xD;&#xA;[il]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilias_Latina&#xD;&#xA;[ua]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:AnonMoos&#xD;&#xA;[up]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Paul_Barlow&#xD;&#xA;[al]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attius_Labeo" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3328" PostHistoryTypeId="16" PostId="662" RevisionGUID="71fdd4b2-b88e-465c-bfb8-091bbd23bffe" CreationDate="2015-05-12T21:39:36.547" UserId="197" />
  <row Id="3329" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="663" RevisionGUID="4762bec6-e958-48e2-a3b5-915dc5c07445" CreationDate="2015-05-12T21:40:13.497" UserId="183" Text="In [*Lludd and Lleuelys*](http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/lludd.html), three plagues fall upon Britain. The first consists of a fierce race, the Coranians; the second consists of a terrible noise which renders the Britons terrified, and the third is a plague of disappearing food and drink.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lludd, after council with his brother, Lleuelys, king of France, figures out how to end the first two plagues, and then fights the &quot;mighty man of magic&quot; who is responsible for the third, defeating him. The magician pleads for mercy.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; All the losses that ever I have caused thee,&quot; said he, &quot;I will make thee atonement for, equal to what I have taken. And I will never do the like from this time forth. But thy faithful vassal will I be.&quot; And the king accepted this from him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How does he atone for his deeds? The tale ends shortly after, and I cannot find another story in which it continues. I suspect that this detail is never revealed, but I could be wrong." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3330" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="663" RevisionGUID="4762bec6-e958-48e2-a3b5-915dc5c07445" CreationDate="2015-05-12T21:40:13.497" UserId="183" Text="How does the &quot;mighty man of magic&quot; atone for his plague?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3331" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="663" RevisionGUID="4762bec6-e958-48e2-a3b5-915dc5c07445" CreationDate="2015-05-12T21:40:13.497" UserId="183" Text="|welsh|the-native-tales|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3332" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="664" RevisionGUID="3003b261-a5b6-4ba7-9c67-062c13afb6a4" CreationDate="2015-05-12T21:46:04.700" UserId="31" Text="Many weapons were made by dwarfs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Brokk and Eiti (Sindri)][1] made Mjölnir (Thor's hammer) according to the [Prose Edda][2] and Odin's spear [Gungnir][3] which the dwarfs [originally gave to Loki][4].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.timelessmyths.com/norse/beings.html#Brokk&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=T6rKRuqqpv8C&amp;pg=PT126&amp;dq=brokk%20prose%20edda&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=7HJSVe_EIu6t7AaEmIKQBA&amp;ved=0CDAQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&amp;q=brokk%20prose%20edda&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.timelessmyths.com/norse/thor.html#Gifts&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=tpGDLLZZ8AYC&amp;pg=PT101&amp;dq=gungnir%20prose%20edda&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=Z3RSVeLhE8m57gbxv4HABg&amp;ved=0CCwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&amp;q=gungnir%20prose%20edda&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3333" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="659" RevisionGUID="fa2dcfad-d594-4310-afac-d798f68b338d" CreationDate="2015-05-12T21:49:52.023" UserDisplayName="user28" Comment="added 49 characters in body" Text="Did ancient Egyptian gods have weapons like the Greek gods, such as Zeus's thunderbolt or Poseidon's trident? If so, who made them? I've never read anywhere where they had weapons." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3334" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="665" RevisionGUID="ae3895da-48f5-4751-9ec6-93b7b634612f" CreationDate="2015-05-12T21:57:28.500" UserId="243" Text="In Robert Graves translation of Apuleius Golden Ass when Psyche is asking Juno for help, Juno says she can't because of one of the Fabian laws.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is a Fabian law?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3335" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="665" RevisionGUID="ae3895da-48f5-4751-9ec6-93b7b634612f" CreationDate="2015-05-12T21:57:28.500" UserId="243" Text="Juno - one of the Fabian laws" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3336" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="665" RevisionGUID="ae3895da-48f5-4751-9ec6-93b7b634612f" CreationDate="2015-05-12T21:57:28.500" UserId="243" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3337" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="665" RevisionGUID="f6bb64f3-765d-4730-99f2-7b1b42ea70da" CreationDate="2015-05-12T21:58:37.887" UserId="183" Comment="added 60 characters in body; edited title" Text="In Robert Graves' translation of Apuleius's [The Golden Ass](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Ass), when Psyche is asking Juno for help, Juno says she can't help because of one of the Fabian laws.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is a Fabian law?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3338" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="665" RevisionGUID="f6bb64f3-765d-4730-99f2-7b1b42ea70da" CreationDate="2015-05-12T21:58:37.887" UserId="183" Comment="added 60 characters in body; edited title" Text="Juno and one of the Fabian laws" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3339" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="659" RevisionGUID="1554d9ef-ee4e-487f-a3a9-e1aa4ed879c4" CreationDate="2015-05-12T21:59:54.583" UserId="-1" Comment="103" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:62,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Christofian&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:29,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;naltipar&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:18,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;El'endia Starman&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:98,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;PythonMaster&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:11,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;durron597&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="3340" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="648" RevisionGUID="3a022af2-4844-4357-ad6f-fae427cfdac9" CreationDate="2015-05-12T22:00:33.263" UserId="232" Comment="added 93 characters in body" Text="Robert Graves wrote the widely published book _Greek Myths_.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have heard that classicists dispute that his account of the myths is valid&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;, in the sense that either:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; * Graves' editing, translation and collation of the source texts lacks fidelity to those texts&#xD;&#xA; * His proposals of the underlying mythopoesis of the Greek myths is the pure invention of Graves himself and lacks any basis in textual or archaeological evidence &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are Graves' myths mythologically valid in these senses?  What purposes could they be used for?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Greek_Myths#Reception" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3342" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="666" RevisionGUID="b283fcf9-5eca-45c8-81b0-d5b56ad10157" CreationDate="2015-05-12T22:24:26.817" UserId="42" Text="Dwarfs, mostly.  Some particular exampels:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Gungnir: created by the Sons of Ivaldi ([Prose Edda](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre05.htm), p 145)&#xD;&#xA;    &gt; Loki went to those dwarves who are called Ívaldi's Sons; and they made the hair, and Skídbladnir also, and the spear which became Odin's possession&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Mjölnir: created by Eitri and Brokkr ([Prose Edda](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre05.htm), p 146)&#xD;&#xA;    &gt; Then he [Eitri] took from the forge a hammer [Mjölnir], put all the precious works into the hands of Brokkr his brother...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Dainsleif ([Prose Edda](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre05.htm), p. 189)&#xD;&#xA;    &gt; Thou hast made this offer over-late, if thou wouldst make peace: for now I have drawn Dáinsleif, which the dwarves made&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Tyrfing: created by Dvalinn and Durin ([Hervarar Saga](http://www.germanicmythology.com/FORNALDARSAGAS/HervararSagaTunstall.html) (1. KAPÍTULI))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And just maybe [Völundr (Wayland the Smith)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_the_Smith) (who forged Gram), who *might* also have forged:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Lævateinn ([Viktor Rydberg’s Investigations into Germanic Mythology Vol. II](http://www.germanicmythology.com/ugm2/UGM2%20Addtionsandmisc%20.pdf))" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3343" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="665" RevisionGUID="70219c5d-3fae-4453-bc1a-9699bfef39b0" CreationDate="2015-05-12T22:28:11.860" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 5 characters in body; edited tags" Text="In Robert Graves' translation of Apuleius's [The Golden Ass](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Ass), when Psyche asks Juno for help, Juno says she can't help because of one of the Fabian laws.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is a Fabian law?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3344" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="665" RevisionGUID="70219c5d-3fae-4453-bc1a-9699bfef39b0" CreationDate="2015-05-12T22:28:11.860" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 5 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3345" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="666" RevisionGUID="d37fd273-4c1c-4327-998f-d77a11c832a4" CreationDate="2015-05-12T22:32:15.703" UserId="42" Comment="added 10 characters in body" Text="Dwarfs, mostly.  Some particular exampels:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Gungnir: created by the Sons of Ivaldi ([Prose Edda](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre05.htm), p 145)&#xD;&#xA;    &gt; Loki went to those dwarves who are called Ívaldi's Sons; and they made the hair, and Skídbladnir also, and the spear which became Odin's possession [Gungnir]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Mjölnir: created by Eitri and Brokkr ([Prose Edda](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre05.htm), p 146)&#xD;&#xA;    &gt; Then he [Eitri] took from the forge a hammer [Mjölnir], put all the precious works into the hands of Brokkr his brother...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Dainsleif ([Prose Edda](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre05.htm), p. 189)&#xD;&#xA;    &gt; Thou hast made this offer over-late, if thou wouldst make peace: for now I have drawn Dáinsleif, which the dwarves made&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Tyrfing: created by Dvalinn and Durin ([Hervarar Saga](http://www.germanicmythology.com/FORNALDARSAGAS/HervararSagaTunstall.html) (1. KAPÍTULI))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And just maybe [Völundr (Wayland the Smith)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_the_Smith) (who forged Gram), who *might* also have forged:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Lævateinn ([Viktor Rydberg’s Investigations into Germanic Mythology Vol. II](http://www.germanicmythology.com/ugm2/UGM2%20Addtionsandmisc%20.pdf))" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3346" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="604" RevisionGUID="6dc55d35-86ca-4275-8643-0215ac242451" CreationDate="2015-05-12T22:40:12.453" UserId="183" Comment="added 382 characters in body" Text="Cadmus may have been the first mortal (Harmonia was immortal) to be married while Olympians watched, but he was not the only one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Peleus and Thetis**](http://www.mythindex.com/greek-mythology/P/Peleus.html) were married on Mount Pelion. Thetis was, according to some stories, immortal, but Peleus himself was mortal.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While on mount Pelion, Peleus married the Nereid Thetis, by whom he became the father of Achilles, though some regarded this Thetis as different from the marine divinity, and called her a daughter of Cheiron. (Apollon. Rhod. i. 558; comp. THETIS.) The gods took part in the marriage solemnity, and Cheiron presented Peleus with a lance (Hom. Il. xvi. 143, xxiv. 61, &amp;c., which, however, according to Pindar, Nem. iii. 56, Peleus made for himself), Poseidon with the immortal horses, Balius and Xanthus, and the other gods with arms. (Apollod. iii. 13. § 5; Horn. Il. xvi. 381, xvii. 443, xviii. 84.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eris was not invited, however, and [began the Trojan War](http://web.stanford.edu/~plomio/history.html).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Additionally, [Hymenaios](http://www.theoi.com/Ouranios/ErosHymenaios.html) was supposed to attend every wedding, being the wedding god himself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This source](http://www.angelfire.com/nd/GreekGods/), though not necessarily a reputable one, is the only source that outright states that these were the only two instances. I emphasize once more that it is not as trustworthy as most acceptable sources, but it is still noteworthy in that it claims that Peleus and Cadmus were the only mortals whose weddings the gods attended." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3347" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="667" RevisionGUID="763b7fb9-bb24-488a-9ea5-26216ae3763a" CreationDate="2015-05-12T23:11:24.327" UserId="42" Text="In &quot;The Golden Ass&quot;, the particular quote in question ([seen here](https://books.google.com/books?id=XefnNMole2kC&amp;pg=PA129&amp;lpg=PA129&amp;dq=golden+ass+fabian+law&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=-y4wflKGPW&amp;sig=uledCI2SAmXgjPHlvEpymNjdPnM&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=dINSVZjMC9GBygSHwYCgDg&amp;ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&amp;q=golden%20ass%20fabian%20law&amp;f=false)) is:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Besides, I am forbidden by law - one of the Fabian laws - to harbour any fugitive slave-girl without her owner's consent&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The College of Law George William Hopper Law Library has [this document on Roman Fabian Laws](http://www.uwyo.edu/lawlib/blume-justinian/_files/docs/book-9pdf/book9-20.pdf) in their Annotated Justinian Code.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They deal with kidnapping, particularly, with a good deal of treatment on the sale of kidnapped individuals into slavery, and the kidnapping of slaves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the articles of particular interest would probably be:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 9.20.9: The law is not uncertain that a man who conceals another's slave is subject to an accusation under the Fabian law.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 9.20.12: If a man knowingly harbors a fugitive slave together with stolen property, he is subject to an action on theft on account thereof, and the rector of the province will cause such property to be restored to you, with the usual penalty, and if you should file an accusation for the crime of kidnapping, the rector will not hesitate to hear you. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3348" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="666" RevisionGUID="069eb60f-8c9c-4bb7-890e-d5816deeef3c" CreationDate="2015-05-12T23:15:08.590" UserId="42" Comment="edited body" Text="Dwarfs, mostly.  Some particular examples:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Gungnir: created by the Sons of Ivaldi ([Prose Edda](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre05.htm), p 145)&#xD;&#xA;    &gt; Loki went to those dwarves who are called Ívaldi's Sons; and they made the hair, and Skídbladnir also, and the spear which became Odin's possession [Gungnir]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Mjölnir: created by Eitri and Brokkr ([Prose Edda](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre05.htm), p 146)&#xD;&#xA;    &gt; Then he [Eitri] took from the forge a hammer [Mjölnir], put all the precious works into the hands of Brokkr his brother...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Dainsleif ([Prose Edda](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre05.htm), p. 189)&#xD;&#xA;    &gt; Thou hast made this offer over-late, if thou wouldst make peace: for now I have drawn Dáinsleif, which the dwarves made&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Tyrfing: created by Dvalinn and Durin ([Hervarar Saga](http://www.germanicmythology.com/FORNALDARSAGAS/HervararSagaTunstall.html) (1. KAPÍTULI))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And just maybe [Völundr (Wayland the Smith)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_the_Smith) (who forged Gram), who *might* also have forged:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Lævateinn ([Viktor Rydberg’s Investigations into Germanic Mythology Vol. II](http://www.germanicmythology.com/ugm2/UGM2%20Addtionsandmisc%20.pdf))" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3349" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="667" RevisionGUID="4687d6c4-f41b-4ff6-8b37-920345732606" CreationDate="2015-05-12T23:19:11.623" UserId="42" Comment="added 7 characters in body" Text="In &quot;The Golden Ass&quot;, the particular quote in question ([seen here](https://books.google.com/books?id=XefnNMole2kC&amp;lpg=PP1&amp;pg=PA129#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false)) is:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Besides, I am forbidden by law - one of the Fabian laws - to harbour any fugitive slave-girl without her owner's consent&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The College of Law George William Hopper Law Library has [this document on Roman Fabian Laws](http://www.uwyo.edu/lawlib/blume-justinian/_files/docs/book-9pdf/book9-20.pdf) in their Annotated Justinian Code.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They deal with kidnapping, particularly, with a good deal of treatment on the sale of kidnapped (free) individuals into slavery, and the kidnapping of slaves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the articles of particular interest would probably be:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 9.20.9: The law is not uncertain that a man who conceals another's slave is subject to an accusation under the Fabian law.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 9.20.12: If a man knowingly harbors a fugitive slave together with stolen property, he is subject to an action on theft on account thereof, and the rector of the province will cause such property to be restored to you, with the usual penalty, and if you should file an accusation for the crime of kidnapping, the rector will not hesitate to hear you. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3350" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="667" RevisionGUID="058a08a1-6996-4bbe-8c4a-81ebdbfbcd7d" CreationDate="2015-05-12T23:26:48.583" UserId="42" Comment="added 7 characters in body" Text="In &quot;The Golden Ass&quot;, the particular quote in question ([seen here](https://books.google.com/books?id=XefnNMole2kC&amp;lpg=PP1&amp;pg=PA129#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false)) is:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Besides, I am forbidden by law - one of the Fabian laws - to harbour any fugitive slave-girl without her owner's consent&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The University of Wyoming George William Hopper Law Library has [this document on Roman Fabian Laws](http://www.uwyo.edu/lawlib/blume-justinian/_files/docs/book-9pdf/book9-20.pdf) in their Annotated Justinian Code.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They deal with kidnapping, particularly, with a good deal of treatment on the sale of kidnapped (free) individuals into slavery, and the kidnapping of slaves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the articles of particular interest would probably be:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 9.20.9: The law is not uncertain that a man who conceals another's slave is subject to an accusation under the Fabian law.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 9.20.12: If a man knowingly harbors a fugitive slave together with stolen property, he is subject to an action on theft on account thereof, and the rector of the province will cause such property to be restored to you, with the usual penalty, and if you should file an accusation for the crime of kidnapping, the rector will not hesitate to hear you. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3351" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="661" RevisionGUID="d771ac38-d52f-460f-8145-3f2d48ac2241" CreationDate="2015-05-12T23:52:29.677" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 8 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Who was the first person to translate part or all of Homer's works, the Iliad and/or the Odyssey, to Latin? Have these translations survived to current times? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My original motivation for the question is the following: Devecseri Gábor has written an epistle about the art of poetic translation addressed to Horace, the ancient Roman poet. From this, it seems like Devecseri considered Horace (as well as Babits Mihály) his master and role model in poetry and translation. I had mistakenly assumed that this was because Horace also translated the Homeric epics, but it turns out this was a false assumption. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3352" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="661" RevisionGUID="d771ac38-d52f-460f-8145-3f2d48ac2241" CreationDate="2015-05-12T23:52:29.677" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 8 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Who translated the Iliad or the Odyssey to Latin first?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3353" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="661" RevisionGUID="d771ac38-d52f-460f-8145-3f2d48ac2241" CreationDate="2015-05-12T23:52:29.677" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 8 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|greek|roman|odyssey|iliad|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3355" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="648" RevisionGUID="5c3d4369-1080-4de1-9ef7-ca5be94ad014" CreationDate="2015-05-13T00:06:42.307" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="title simpler" Text="Is Robert Graves' Greek Myths considered trustworthy?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3356" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="648" RevisionGUID="5c3d4369-1080-4de1-9ef7-ca5be94ad014" CreationDate="2015-05-13T00:06:42.307" Comment="Proposed by 62 approved by 183, 232 edit id of 184" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3357" PostHistoryTypeId="8" PostId="604" RevisionGUID="b37e9877-73f5-481a-9b34-61808acd18ef" CreationDate="2015-05-13T00:20:51.853" UserId="183" Comment="Rollback to [b530ebe5-4a2f-4d64-a81b-0ea139411bfe]" Text="Cadmus may have been the first mortal (Harmonia was immortal) to be married while Olympians watched, but he was not the only one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Peleus and Thetis**](http://www.mythindex.com/greek-mythology/P/Peleus.html) were married on Mount Pelion. Thetis was, according to some stories, immortal, but Peleus himself was mortal.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While on mount Pelion, Peleus married the Nereid Thetis, by whom he became the father of Achilles, though some regarded this Thetis as different from the marine divinity, and called her a daughter of Cheiron. (Apollon. Rhod. i. 558; comp. THETIS.) The gods took part in the marriage solemnity, and Cheiron presented Peleus with a lance (Hom. Il. xvi. 143, xxiv. 61, &amp;c., which, however, according to Pindar, Nem. iii. 56, Peleus made for himself), Poseidon with the immortal horses, Balius and Xanthus, and the other gods with arms. (Apollod. iii. 13. § 5; Horn. Il. xvi. 381, xvii. 443, xviii. 84.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eris was not invited, however, and [began the Trojan War](http://web.stanford.edu/~plomio/history.html).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Additionally, [Hymenaios](http://www.theoi.com/Ouranios/ErosHymenaios.html) was supposed to attend every wedding, being the wedding god himself." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3358" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="668" RevisionGUID="df653f5f-c034-4a56-b95e-88cc5267de89" CreationDate="2015-05-13T00:23:03.570" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3359" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="669" RevisionGUID="eed6c194-39cf-485f-9d2e-34647561a508" CreationDate="2015-05-13T00:23:03.570" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3360" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="670" RevisionGUID="58b8efa0-586e-492a-b2b0-e7f312f66405" CreationDate="2015-05-13T01:55:39.373" UserId="171" Text="Norse gods didn't have a &quot;smith&quot; god (like the Greek god Hephaestus or his Roman counterpart Vulcan). In spite of being polytheists they didn't divide every aspect of their lives in the way that other cultures (Greek, Roman) did.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Norse mythology most of the &quot;cool crafts&quot; where done by the Dwarfs (Dwarves).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Dwarfs had] a far greater cleverness in the arts and crafts of working with iron and gold and precious stones. These Dwarfs, with Durin as their king, made rings and swords and priceless treasures, and mined gold out of the earth for the AEsir's use&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;(Roger Lancely Green. Myths of the Norsemen)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are though &quot;legendary&quot; smith figures in the Norse mythology beside the Dwarfs, like **Waylan the Smith**. Wayland (sometimes Weyland or Weiland) is, according to Völundarkviða (a poem in the Poetic Edda), one of the three sons of the king of the Finns. But, in spite of being a legendary master blacksmith, he didn't forge any remarkable artifacts nor any of the god's weapons. He is also a human figure (although maybe with skills that could rival with those of the Dwarves) not a god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;   " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3362" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="669" RevisionGUID="48ef1ea7-be1c-47aa-9917-66dc3590d158" CreationDate="2015-05-13T03:04:56.550" UserId="183" Comment="added 90 characters in body" Text="For questions about a series of Welsh stories sometimes considered part of the Mabinogion." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3363" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="669" RevisionGUID="48ef1ea7-be1c-47aa-9917-66dc3590d158" CreationDate="2015-05-13T03:04:56.550" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 79, 11 edit id of 185" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3364" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="383" RevisionGUID="f3386a8a-3ce8-4524-963e-6e04592926b8" CreationDate="2015-05-13T03:42:57.777" UserId="11" Comment="Added link to wikipedia for basic reference" Text="The [Iroquois creation myth](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroquois_mythology#Creation) tells of Sky people that lived in the Sky World.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From [firstpeople.us][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the beginning, the world was not as we know it now. It was a water&#xD;&#xA;&gt; world inhabited only by animals and creatures of the air who could&#xD;&#xA;&gt; survive without land.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Up above, the Sky World was quite different. Human-type beings lived&#xD;&#xA;&gt; there with infinite types of plants and animals to enjoy.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the Sky World, there was a Tree of Life that was very special to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the people of the Sky World. They knew that it grew at the entrance to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the world below and forbade anyone to tamper with the Tree. One woman&#xD;&#xA;&gt; who was soon to give birth was curious about the Tree and convinced&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her brother to uproot the Tree.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Beneath the Tree was a great hole. The woman peered from the edge into&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the hole and suddenly fell off the edge. As she was falling she&#xD;&#xA;&gt; grasped at the edge and clutched in her hand some of the earth from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Sky World. As she fell, the birds of the world below were&#xD;&#xA;&gt; disturbed and alerted to her distress. The birds responded and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gathered a great many of their kind to break her fall and cradle her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to the back of a great sea turtle. The creatures of the water believed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that she needed land to live on, so they set about to collect some for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her. They dove to the great depths of the world's oceans to gather&#xD;&#xA;&gt; earth to make her a place to live. Many of the animals tried to gather&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the earth from the ocean floor, only the muskrat was successful. With&#xD;&#xA;&gt; only a small bit of earth brought onto turtle's back from his small&#xD;&#xA;&gt; paws, Turtle Island began to grow.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Sky Woman soon gave birth to a daughter on Turtle Island. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; daughter grew fast. There were no man-beings on Turtle Island, but a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; being known as the West Wind married the daughter of Sky Woman.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Soon the daughter of Sky Woman gave birth to Twins. One was born the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; natural way, and he was called the Right-Handed Twin. The other was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; born in a way that caused the death of the mother. He was called the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Left-Handed Twin. When their mother died, their grandmother, Sky&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Woman, placed the fistful of earth that she grasped from the edge of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Sky World, and placed it on her daughter's grave. The earth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; carried special seeds from the Sky World that were nourished by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; earth over her daughter. So from the body of her daughter came the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sacred Tobacco, Strawberry and Sweetgrass. We call these Kionhekwa.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Life Givers.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Right and Left-Handed Twins were endowed with special creative&#xD;&#xA;&gt; powers. The Right-Handed Twin created gentle hills, beautiful smelling&#xD;&#xA;&gt; flowers, quiet brooks, butterflies and numerous creatures, plants and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; earth formations. His brother the Left-Handed Twin made snakes, thorns&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on rose bushes, thunder and lightning and other more disturbing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; attributes of today's world. Together, they created man and his many&#xD;&#xA;&gt; attributes. The Right-Handed Twin believed in diplomacy and conflict&#xD;&#xA;&gt; resolution. The Left-Handed Twin believed in conflict as resolution.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They were very different, but all that they created is an integral&#xD;&#xA;&gt; part of this Earth's Creation.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Their Grandmother, Sky Woman, now came to the end of her life. When&#xD;&#xA;&gt; she died, the Twins fought over her body and pulled it apart, throwing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her head into the sky. As part of the Sky World, there her head&#xD;&#xA;&gt; remained to shine upon the world as Grandmother Moon. The Twins could&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not live together without fighting. They agreed to dwell in different&#xD;&#xA;&gt; realms of the earth. The Right-Handed Twin continued to live in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; daylight and the Left-Handed Twin became a dweller of the night. Both&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of them continue their special duties to their Mother the Earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, this doesn't tell us where the Sky People came from.  Is there another legend or story that tells us this?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Note: I realize that many Native American tribes have a shared mythos, so other tribes that share this story are also fair sources for an origin of the Sky People.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.firstpeople.us/FP-Html-Legends/TheCreationStory-Iroquois.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3365" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="671" RevisionGUID="74d2c436-bda1-4939-a5bb-a7f876d35434" CreationDate="2015-05-13T03:52:28.960" UserId="79" Text="After researching on the topic for a considerable amount of time, it seems most of the sources which describe the Neo-Hittite Chimera, do not contain any myths about the creature nor any in-depth details.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore, it leads me to believe what another source said (emphasis mine):&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;On the [orthostats](http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/43.135.2) at Neo-Hittite sites, **the Chimaera had no narrative context and served only to ward off evil**, but in Greek myth the beast was to be conquered by a hero&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sub&gt;source: http://cuartmuseum.colorado.edu/collection.bak/classics/greekvases/orientalizing.html&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which means, the Neo-Hittite Chimera was created just to &quot;ward off evil&quot; and hence does not have any myths associated with it." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3373" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="418" RevisionGUID="1bca4f35-e270-45aa-a577-18d73191c23e" CreationDate="2015-05-13T06:27:14.783" UserId="29" Comment="added 334 characters in body" Text="There is no direct link between [Chiron][1] and [Charon][2]. That similarity means nothing; to have a direct link through their names, their meanings would have to be similar, not just the letters of which they consist.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Το όνομα Χάρων πιθανότατα προέρχεται από το επίθετο &quot;χάρων&quot;, που αποτελεί ποιητικό τύπο του αρχαίου χαροπός/ -ωπός &lt; ρήμα χαίρω. Δεδομένου ότι ο Χάρων ήταν χθόνια θεότητα, η απευθείας συσχέτιση με το ρήμα χαίρω οφείλεται σε ευφημισμό.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This Greek text implies that [Charon][3] is named after the verb `Χαίρω`, which means to be glad. His name is essentially a euphemism. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Χείρων (από το χειρ) είναι αυτός που είναι ικανός στα χέρια, αυτός που τα χειρίζεται καλά. Και φυσικά ένας γιατρός τα χρησιμοποιεί για να γιατρεύει. Για να αλείφει βότανα. Για να διορθώνει τα σπασίματα. Για να κλείνει τις πληγές. Δηλαδή χειροπράκτης ή και χειρούργος. Τέτοιος λοιπόν γιατρός ήταν ο μέγιστος Χείρων. Με τη βοήθεια των χεριών του γιάτρευε κάθε αρρώστια.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Τhis Greek text implies that `Χείρων` is someone adept at using his hands (hand is `Χείρ` in ancient Greek), since [Chiron][4] was a doctor who would heal every sickness with his medicine.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I also want to note that `-ων` is a suffix of many ancient Greek names ([Chiron][5] is Χείρ**ων** and [Charon][6] is Χάρ**ων** in Greek), so you could not suppose a link between the two judging from such a little amount of letters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sources:** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* http://www.pame.gr/istoria/mithologia/kentavroi.html&#xD;&#xA;* http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A7%CE%AC%CF%81%CF%89%CE%BD_%28%CE%BC%CF%85%CE%B8%CE%BF%CE%BB%CE%BF%CE%B3%CE%AF%CE%B1%29&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiron&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charon_%28mythology%29&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charon_%28mythology%29&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiron&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiron&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charon_%28mythology%29" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3374" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="360" RevisionGUID="bdb66a8c-c061-4162-a8ff-22471668f54e" CreationDate="2015-05-13T06:28:23.160" UserId="29" Comment="added 8 characters in body" Text="In Greek mythology, there is [Chiron](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiron), a centaur, and [Charon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charon_%28mythology%29), the ferryman of the Underworld. They couldn't be more different, yet they have such similar names. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Is there a reason for this?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**EDIT:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As said in the comments, the names in Greek are **Χείρων** for Chiron and **Χάρων** for Charon. This is a little bit bigger difference (two letters), but I decided it should be mentioned. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3375" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="653" RevisionGUID="3df5893b-2b0d-414e-a8c7-31435f8b8f2f" CreationDate="2015-05-13T06:53:11.210" UserId="111" Comment="linked to the paragraph talking about flamines in &quot;de lingua latina&quot;" Text="From the early Roman kings on&lt;sup&gt;*&lt;/sup&gt;, fifteen gods were each given an officially appointed priest, the *[flamen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamen)*, to take care of its cult in Rome.  &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;The three main priests (*flamines maiores*) were in charge of the cult of Jupiter, Mars and Quirinus, while 12 others (*flamines minores*) were in charge of the cult of Ceres, Vulcan, Flora, Pomona, Carmentis, Falacer, Furrina, Palatua, Portunes, Volturnus, and two others, unknown today.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We know this list primarily from [Varro](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Terentius_Varro) in [*De lingua latina*](https://archive.org/stream/onlatinlanguage01varruoft#page/310/mode/2up) who, when he wrote it (late Republic), already considered most of those gods to be obscure. So obscure that most of them are widely unknown today (two of which we even forgot the name of, apparently).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hence my question: how and why did those (fairly numerous) gods whose cult was actively maintained by appointed officials fall into oblivion during the Roman Republic? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;___&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;*&lt;/sup&gt; [According to Livy](http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/From_the_Founding_of_the_City/Book_1#20), Numa Pompilius (second king of Rome) founded this system of flamines.&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3378" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="598" RevisionGUID="e2fb72b5-35fb-4b30-8ce2-29a51b9cfd01" CreationDate="2015-05-13T07:25:32.280" UserId="57" Comment="1" />
  <row Id="3379" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="672" RevisionGUID="16ec3bda-5079-4b73-b0d8-569948836072" CreationDate="2015-05-13T07:35:08.093" UserId="57" Text="The head was placed facing France to protect Britain from Saxon invasion. Ireland, was no longer a concern (emphasis mine): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'Shame on my beard,' said he 'if I don't open the door and find out whether it is true what is said about it. [So] he opened the door, and looked out to Cornwall and over Aber Henvelen. And when he looked, suddenly everything they had ever lost - loved ones and companions, and all the bad things that had ever happened to them; and most of all the loss of their king - became as clear as if it had been rushing in towards them. And from that moment, they were not able to rest unless they were making for London with the head. However long they were on the road, they came to London, and they buried the head in The White Hill.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And that was one of the Three Fortunate concealments when it was buried, and one of the Three Unfortunate Disclosures when it was unearthed: **since no affliction would ever came to this Island from across the sea, as long as the head was in that concealment**. That is what this tradition says. Their adventure 'The men who set out to Ireland', is [the name of] that [tale].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **In Ireland, there was no person left alive**, except five pregnant women in a cave in the wilderness of Ireland. And to those five women, after the same amount of time, were born five sons. They raised those five boys until they were fully-grown youths, and they thought about women and desired to take them.  And then, each sleeps willy-nilly with the mother of his companion, and rules the country and inhabits it, and divides it between the five of them. And because of that division, the 'Five Parts of Ireland' are still so called.  And they searched the country, wherever there had been fighting - and found gold and silver, until they became wealthy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Mabinogi of Branwen](http://www.mabinogi.net/branwen.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3381" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="673" RevisionGUID="3c47a457-1c58-4719-a0bf-86bccbd086e9" CreationDate="2015-05-13T07:45:26.693" UserId="57" Text="Bendigeidfran's head was one of the Three Fortunate concealments (emphasis mine): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'Shame on my beard,' said he 'if I don't open the door and find out whether it is true what is said about it. [So] he opened the door, and looked out to Cornwall and over Aber Henvelen. And when he looked, suddenly everything they had ever lost - loved ones and companions, and all the bad things that had ever happened to them; and most of all the loss of their king - became as clear as if it had been rushing in towards them. And from that moment, they were not able to rest unless they were making for London with the head. However long they were on the road, they came to London, and they buried the head in The White Hill.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **And that was one of the Three Fortunate concealments when it was buried, and one of the Three Unfortunate Disclosures when it was unearthed**: since no affliction would ever came to this Island from across the sea, as long as the head was in that concealment. That is what this tradition says. Their adventure 'The men who set out to Ireland', is [the name of] that [tale].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Mabinogi of Branwen](http://www.mabinogi.net/branwen.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What were the other two Fortunate Concealments? What are their stories?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3382" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="673" RevisionGUID="3c47a457-1c58-4719-a0bf-86bccbd086e9" CreationDate="2015-05-13T07:45:26.693" UserId="57" Text="Bendigeidfran's head was one of the Three Fortunate concealments; what are the other two?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3383" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="673" RevisionGUID="3c47a457-1c58-4719-a0bf-86bccbd086e9" CreationDate="2015-05-13T07:45:26.693" UserId="57" Text="|welsh|mabinogion|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3384" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="673" RevisionGUID="81e6fb31-3267-49bf-afc4-5e256e1f5c19" CreationDate="2015-05-13T07:56:58.010" UserId="57" Comment="added 41 characters in body" Text="Bendigeidfran's head was one of the Three Fortunate concealments (emphasis mine): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'Shame on my beard,' said he 'if I don't open the door and find out whether it is true what is said about it. [So] he opened the door, and looked out to Cornwall and over Aber Henvelen. And when he looked, suddenly everything they had ever lost - loved ones and companions, and all the bad things that had ever happened to them; and most of all the loss of their king - became as clear as if it had been rushing in towards them. And from that moment, they were not able to rest unless they were making for London with the head. However long they were on the road, they came to London, and they buried the head in The White Hill.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **And that was one of the Three Fortunate concealments when it was buried, and one of the Three Unfortunate Disclosures when it was unearthed**: since no affliction would ever came to this Island from across the sea, as long as the head was in that concealment. That is what this tradition says. Their adventure 'The men who set out to Ireland', is [the name of] that [tale].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Mabinogi of Branwen](http://www.mabinogi.net/branwen.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What were the other two Fortunate Concealments? What was their significance, and in what stories do they appear?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3385" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="674" RevisionGUID="b9a46a58-e7c3-4d88-b71d-c546b97daf41" CreationDate="2015-05-13T08:29:45.917" UserId="111" Text="Actually the list of moon-goddess goes on and on since, according to this [Theoi](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Selene.html) page:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Other Greek moon goddesses included Pasiphae, the Leukippides, Eileithyia, Hekate, Artemis, Bendis, and Hera (who sometimes doubled for Selene in the Endymion myth).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But let's focus first on the one you mentioned:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Artemis](http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Artemis.html). Her association with the moon seems relatively straight-forward: if Apollo is associated with the Sun, then his sister has to be associated with the moon.&#xD;&#xA; - [Selene](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Selene.html) (= Mene or Luna). She is the proper Titan-goddess of the Moon, often even the personnification of the moon itself. See among many other sources, Apollonius Rhodius's *Argonautica*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Rising from the distant east, the Lady Selene (Moon), Titanian goddess...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Phoibe/Phoebe](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanisPhoibe.html). The Titan Phoibe doesn't actually seem to be associated with the moon, the confusion comes from Selene being often nicknamed Phoebe (i. e. *'bright'*). Phoibe was apparently a prophetess Titan-goddess and as such is supposed to have held the Oracle of Delphi at some point. From the first line of Aeschlyus's [*Eumenides*](http://classics.mit.edu/Aeschylus/eumendides.html):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;THE PYTHIAN PRIESTESS  &#xD;&#xA;First, in this prayer, of all the gods I name   &#xD;&#xA;The prophet-mother Earth; and Themis next,   &#xD;&#xA;Second who sat-for so with truth is said-   &#xD;&#xA;On this her mother's shrine oracular.   &#xD;&#xA;Then by her grace, who unconstrained allowed,   &#xD;&#xA;There sat thereon another child of Earth-   &#xD;&#xA;Titanian Phoebe.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA; - Hecate. Now Hecate is something else I think. As one can see on her [Theoi](http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Hekate.html) page, the different sources tend to contradict each other on her parentage, descendance, attributions etc. leading some scholars to think that Hecate was in fact a goddess foreign to the Greek Pantheon that was only added later (and well integrated thanks to Hesiod *Hymn to Hecate* and the place he gave her in the *Theogony*). See for instance what Sarah Johnston says about it in [*Restless Deads*](https://books.google.de/books?id=qbihKIJw_OUC&amp;lpg=PP1&amp;pg=PA205#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Let us go back further, to Hecate's place of origin. There is general agreement that this was Caria, in southwestern Asia Minor, which is supported by the fact that by the Hellenistic period her precinct in Lagina was the largest of all the precincts there (in constrast, in all of Greece, only Aegina seems to have had any significant sanctuary devoted wholly to Hecate).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lagina being in today's Turkey and Caria being southwestern Anatolia.&#xD;&#xA;Similarly (from the list I mentioned earlier), [Pasiphae](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Pasiphae.html) seems to have been the cretan moon-goddess and [Bendis](http://www.theoi.com/Thrakios/Bendis.html) the one from Thrace." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3386" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="674" RevisionGUID="4486124b-ff6b-4668-b662-cff5cf05dd00" CreationDate="2015-05-13T08:34:48.553" UserId="111" Comment="deleted 32 characters in body" Text="Actually the list of moon-goddess goes on and on since, according to this [Theoi](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Selene.html) page:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Other Greek moon goddesses included Pasiphae, the Leukippides, Eileithyia, Hekate, Artemis, Bendis, and Hera (who sometimes doubled for Selene in the Endymion myth).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But let's focus first on the one you mentioned:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Artemis](http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Artemis.html). Her association with the moon seems relatively straight-forward: if Apollo is associated with the Sun, then his sister has to be associated with the moon.&#xD;&#xA; - [Selene](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Selene.html) (= Mene or Luna). She is the proper Titan-goddess of the Moon, often even the personnification of the moon itself. See among many other sources, Apollonius Rhodius's *Argonautica*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Rising from the distant east, the Lady Selene (Moon), Titanian goddess...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Phoibe/Phoebe](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanisPhoibe.html). The Titan Phoibe doesn't actually seem to be associated with the moon, the confusion comes from Selene being often nicknamed Phoebe (i. e. *'bright'*). Phoibe was apparently a prophetess Titan-goddess and as such is supposed to have held the Oracle of Delphi at some point. From the first line of Aeschlyus's [*Eumenides*](http://classics.mit.edu/Aeschylus/eumendides.html):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;THE PYTHIAN PRIESTESS  &#xD;&#xA;First, in this prayer, of all the gods I name   &#xD;&#xA;The prophet-mother Earth; and Themis next,   &#xD;&#xA;Second who sat-for so with truth is said-   &#xD;&#xA;On this her mother's shrine oracular.   &#xD;&#xA;Then by her grace, who unconstrained allowed,   &#xD;&#xA;There sat thereon another child of Earth-   &#xD;&#xA;Titanian Phoebe.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA; - Hecate. Now Hecate is something else I think. As one can see on her [Theoi](http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Hekate.html) page, the different sources tend to contradict each other on her parentage, descendance, attributions etc. leading some scholars to think that Hecate was in fact a goddess foreign to the Greek Pantheon that was only added later (and well integrated thanks to Hesiod *Hymn to Hecate* and the place he gave her in the *Theogony*). See for instance what Sarah Johnston says about it in [*Restless Deads*](https://books.google.de/books?id=qbihKIJw_OUC&amp;lpg=PP1&amp;pg=PA205#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Let us go back further, to Hecate's place of origin. There is general agreement that this was Caria, in southwestern Asia Minor, which is supported by the fact that by the Hellenistic period her precinct in Lagina was the largest of all the precincts there (in constrast, in all of Greece, only Aegina seems to have had any significant sanctuary devoted wholly to Hecate).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Caria being in southwestern Anatolia.&#xD;&#xA;Similarly (from the list I mentioned earlier), [Pasiphae](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Pasiphae.html) seems to have been the cretan moon-goddess and [Bendis](http://www.theoi.com/Thrakios/Bendis.html) the one from Thrace.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;___&#xD;&#xA;So to summarize, the difference between Selene and Artemis is that one *is*  the moon while the other is just associated with it, and on top of that one is a Titan while the other is an Olympian; Phoebe has nothing to do with the moon; and the others are foreign/regional goddesses integrated *a posteriori*  into the Greek Pantheon." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3387" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="674" RevisionGUID="e316fe89-3e75-495d-8b3b-987fd1f9d53a" CreationDate="2015-05-13T08:48:04.567" UserId="111" Comment="edited body" Text="Actually the list of moon-goddess goes on and on since, according to this [Theoi](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Selene.html) page:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Other Greek moon goddesses included Pasiphae, the Leukippides, Eileithyia, Hekate, Artemis, Bendis, and Hera (who sometimes doubled for Selene in the Endymion myth).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But let's focus first on the one you mentioned:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Artemis](http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Artemis.html). Her association with the moon seems relatively straight-forward: if Apollo is associated with the Sun, then his sister has to be associated with the moon.&#xD;&#xA; - [Selene](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Selene.html) (= Mene or Luna). She is the proper Titan-goddess of the Moon, often even the personnification of the moon itself. See among many other sources, Apollonius Rhodius's *Argonautica*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Rising from the distant east, the Lady Selene (Moon), Titanian goddess...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Phoibe/Phoebe](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanisPhoibe.html). The Titan Phoibe doesn't actually seem to be associated with the moon, the confusion comes from Selene being often nicknamed Phoebe (i. e. *'bright'*). Phoibe was apparently a prophetess Titan-goddess and as such is supposed to have held the Oracle of Delphi at some point. From the first line of Aeschylus's [*Eumenides*](http://classics.mit.edu/Aeschylus/eumendides.html):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;THE PYTHIAN PRIESTESS  &#xD;&#xA;First, in this prayer, of all the gods I name   &#xD;&#xA;The prophet-mother Earth; and Themis next,   &#xD;&#xA;Second who sat-for so with truth is said-   &#xD;&#xA;On this her mother's shrine oracular.   &#xD;&#xA;Then by her grace, who unconstrained allowed,   &#xD;&#xA;There sat thereon another child of Earth-   &#xD;&#xA;Titanian Phoebe.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA; - Hecate. Now Hecate is something else I think. As one can see on her [Theoi](http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Hekate.html) page, the different sources tend to contradict each other on her parentage, descendance, attributions etc. leading some scholars to think that Hecate was in fact a goddess foreign to the Greek Pantheon that was only added later (and well integrated thanks to Hesiod *Hymn to Hecate* and the place he gave her in the *Theogony*). See for instance what Sarah Johnston says about it in [*Restless Deads*](https://books.google.de/books?id=qbihKIJw_OUC&amp;lpg=PP1&amp;pg=PA205#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Let us go back further, to Hecate's place of origin. There is general agreement that this was Caria, in southwestern Asia Minor, which is supported by the fact that by the Hellenistic period her precinct in Lagina was the largest of all the precincts there (in constrast, in all of Greece, only Aegina seems to have had any significant sanctuary devoted wholly to Hecate).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Caria being in southwestern Anatolia.&#xD;&#xA;Similarly (from the list I mentioned earlier), [Pasiphae](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Pasiphae.html) seems to have been the cretan moon-goddess and [Bendis](http://www.theoi.com/Thrakios/Bendis.html) the one from Thrace.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;___&#xD;&#xA;So to summarize, the difference between Selene and Artemis is that one *is*  the moon while the other is just associated with it, and on top of that one is a Titan while the other is an Olympian; Phoebe has nothing to do with the moon; and the others are foreign/regional goddesses integrated *a posteriori*  into the Greek Pantheon." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3388" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="674" RevisionGUID="0db435d8-f593-4a24-8540-27890890a4a2" CreationDate="2015-05-13T09:01:02.027" UserId="111" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="Actually the list of moon-goddesses goes on since, according to Selene's [Theoi](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Selene.html) page:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Other Greek moon goddesses included Pasiphae, the Leukippides, Eileithyia, Hekate, Artemis, Bendis, and Hera (who sometimes doubled for Selene in the Endymion myth).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But let's focus first on the one you mentioned:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Artemis](http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Artemis.html). Her association with the moon seems relatively straight-forward: if Apollo is associated with the Sun, then his sister has to be associated with the moon.&#xD;&#xA; - [Selene](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Selene.html) (= Mene or Luna). She is the proper Titan-goddess of the Moon, often even the personnification of the moon itself. See among many other sources, Apollonius Rhodius's *Argonautica*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Rising from the distant east, the Lady Selene (Moon), Titanian goddess...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Phoibe/Phoebe](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanisPhoibe.html). The Titan Phoibe doesn't actually seem to be associated with the moon, the confusion comes from Selene being often nicknamed Phoebe (i. e. *'bright'*). Phoibe was apparently a prophetess Titan-goddess and as such is supposed to have held the Oracle of Delphi at some point. From the first line of Aeschylus's [*Eumenides*](http://classics.mit.edu/Aeschylus/eumendides.html):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;THE PYTHIAN PRIESTESS  &#xD;&#xA;First, in this prayer, of all the gods I name   &#xD;&#xA;The prophet-mother Earth; and Themis next,   &#xD;&#xA;Second who sat-for so with truth is said-   &#xD;&#xA;On this her mother's shrine oracular.   &#xD;&#xA;Then by her grace, who unconstrained allowed,   &#xD;&#xA;There sat thereon another child of Earth-   &#xD;&#xA;Titanian Phoebe.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA; - Hecate. Now Hecate is something else I think. As one can see on her [Theoi](http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Hekate.html) page, the different sources tend to contradict each other on her parentage, descendance, attributions etc. leading some scholars to think that Hecate was in fact a goddess foreign to the Greek Pantheon that was only added later (and well integrated thanks to Hesiod *Hymn to Hecate* and the place he gave her in the *Theogony*). See for instance what Sarah Johnston says about it in [*Restless Deads*](https://books.google.de/books?id=qbihKIJw_OUC&amp;lpg=PP1&amp;pg=PA205#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Let us go back further, to Hecate's place of origin. There is general agreement that this was Caria, in southwestern Asia Minor, which is supported by the fact that by the Hellenistic period her precinct in Lagina was the largest of all the precincts there (in constrast, in all of Greece, only Aegina seems to have had any significant sanctuary devoted wholly to Hecate).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Caria being in southwestern Anatolia.&#xD;&#xA;Similarly (from the list I mentioned earlier), [Pasiphae](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Pasiphae.html) seems to have been the cretan moon-goddess and [Bendis](http://www.theoi.com/Thrakios/Bendis.html) the one from Thrace.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;___&#xD;&#xA;So to summarize, the difference between Selene and Artemis is that one *is*  the moon while the other is just associated with it, and on top of that one is a Titan while the other is an Olympian; Phoebe has nothing to do with the moon; and the others are foreign/regional goddesses integrated *a posteriori*  into the Greek Pantheon." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3389" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="675" RevisionGUID="ee823e2f-213d-4b3a-9a0d-80bdef3caf75" CreationDate="2015-05-13T09:33:07.287" UserId="29" Text="[Sacrifice][1] is a common practice in the [Norse pagan religion][2]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**Sacrifice** `(blót)` played a huge role in most of the rituals that are known about today, and communal feasting on the meat of sacrificed animals, [...] **The purpose of these sacrifices was to ensure fertility and growth.** However, sudden crises or transitions such as births, weddings and burials could also be the reason. In those times there was a clear distinction between private and public faith, and the rituals were thus tied either to the household and the individual or to the structures of society.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Wikipedia][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The writings of [Ibn Fadlan][4], specifically [Ibn Fadlan and the Rusiyyah][5], inform us of a strange phenomenon of human sacrifice:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **When their chieftain dies, his family ask his slave-girls and slave-boys, &#xD;&#xA;“Who among you will die with him?”** and some of them reply, “I shall.” &#xD;&#xA;Having said this, it becomes incumbent upon the person and it is impossible &#xD;&#xA;ever to turn back. Should that person try to, he is not permitted to do so. It is &#xD;&#xA;usually slave-girls who make this offer.  [...]  I quizzed the interpreter about her actions and he said, **“The first time &#xD;&#xA;they lifted her, she said, ‘Behold, I see my father and my mother.’ The &#xD;&#xA;second time she said, ‘Behold, I see all of my dead kindred, seated.’ The &#xD;&#xA;third time she said, ‘Behold, I see my master, seated in Paradise. Paradise &#xD;&#xA;is beautiful and verdant. He is accompanied by his men and his male-&#xD;&#xA;slaves.** He summons me, so bring me to him.’”&#xD;&#xA;61&#xD;&#xA; So they brought her to &#xD;&#xA;the ship and she removed two bracelets that she was wearing, handing &#xD;&#xA;them to the woman called the “Angel of Death,” the one who was to kill &#xD;&#xA;her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; Source: [Ibn Fadlan and the Rusiyyah][5] &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why was there a need to sacrifice slaves after their master's death? Didn't people at the time believe that a chieftain, being a person of high importance, would enter [Valhalla][6]? If so, why would a slave be allowed to enter [Valhalla][7]?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrifice&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_religion&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_ibn_Fadlan&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/montgo1.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valhalla&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valhalla" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3390" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="675" RevisionGUID="ee823e2f-213d-4b3a-9a0d-80bdef3caf75" CreationDate="2015-05-13T09:33:07.287" UserId="29" Text="Why would slaves be sacrificed after their master's death?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3391" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="675" RevisionGUID="ee823e2f-213d-4b3a-9a0d-80bdef3caf75" CreationDate="2015-05-13T09:33:07.287" UserId="29" Text="|norse|sacrifice|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3392" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="675" RevisionGUID="6fbc7110-2b58-4248-a9bd-6648da592d0d" CreationDate="2015-05-13T09:59:08.613" UserId="29" Comment="deleted 6 characters in body" Text="[Sacrifice][1] is a common practice in the [Norse pagan religion][2]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**Sacrifice** `(blót)` played a huge role in most of the rituals that are known about today, and communal feasting on the meat of sacrificed animals, [...] **The purpose of these sacrifices was to ensure fertility and growth.** However, sudden crises or transitions such as births, weddings and burials could also be the reason. In those times there was a clear distinction between private and public faith, and the rituals were thus tied either to the household and the individual or to the structures of society.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Wikipedia][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The writings of [Ibn Fadlan][4], specifically [Ibn Fadlan and the Rusiyyah][5], inform us of a strange phenomenon of human sacrifice:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **When their chieftain dies, his family ask his slave-girls and slave-boys, &#xD;&#xA;“Who among you will die with him?”** and some of them reply, “I shall.” &#xD;&#xA;Having said this, it becomes incumbent upon the person and it is impossible &#xD;&#xA;ever to turn back. Should that person try to, he is not permitted to do so. It is &#xD;&#xA;usually slave-girls who make this offer.  [...]  I quizzed the interpreter about her actions and he said, **“The first time &#xD;&#xA;they lifted her, she said, ‘Behold, I see my father and my mother.’ The &#xD;&#xA;second time she said, ‘Behold, I see all of my dead kindred, seated.’ The &#xD;&#xA;third time she said, ‘Behold, I see my master, seated in Paradise. Paradise &#xD;&#xA;is beautiful and verdant. He is accompanied by his men and his male-&#xD;&#xA;slaves.** He summons me, so bring me to him.’” So they brought her to &#xD;&#xA;the ship and she removed two bracelets that she was wearing, handing &#xD;&#xA;them to the woman called the “Angel of Death,” the one who was to kill &#xD;&#xA;her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; Source: [Ibn Fadlan and the Rusiyyah][5] &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why was there a need to sacrifice slaves after their master's death? Didn't people at the time believe that a chieftain, being a person of high importance, would enter [Valhalla][6]? If so, why would a slave be allowed to enter [Valhalla][7]?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrifice&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_religion&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_ibn_Fadlan&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/montgo1.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valhalla&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valhalla" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3393" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="676" RevisionGUID="0ead5008-ebdf-4337-aaea-139bf44ef56b" CreationDate="2015-05-13T10:09:24.487" UserId="229" Text="There used to be a theory that the Titans were actually the gods of the inhabitants of (geographical) Greece before the Greeks invaded and took it over. The idea there is that the story of [Titanomachy][1] is actually an allegory for the Greek takeover of their modern homeland.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This theory was popular enough back when I was in school 3 decades ago that it was presented to me as fact by an anthropology professor. The best online reference to it I could find today is from an online copy of [The Minoan-Mycenaean Religion and Its Survival in Greek Religion][2] by Martin Persson Nilsson (1950).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Mr. Nilsson, the identity of those chthonic Titan-worshippers would be the Mycenaeans. There's no reason it couldn't be older than that though. Knowing the history of the area, I'd think the [Anatolians][3](eg [Hittites][4]) would be another possibility (they entered Asia Minor through Greece, so presumably there were at one point similar Indo-European tribes all the way back from there to the PIE homeland somewhere north of the black sea). Backing this up a bit is the fact that some Titans are loosely associated with Asia Minor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm guessing this theory is not currently in favor though, based on its vintage and the trouble I had looking it up online.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanomachy&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://Mycenaean%20Religion%20and%20Its%20Survival%20in%20Greek%20Religion&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_languages&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3394" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="677" RevisionGUID="d4a7b61f-8a38-4b4e-9f3c-3fffc53e1f7e" CreationDate="2015-05-13T10:27:18.733" UserId="57" Text="Although slaves aren't specifically mentioned, Odin's burial laws tell us that &quot;every one will come to Valhalla with the riches he had with him upon the pile&quot;:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Odin established the same law in his land that had been in force&#xD;&#xA;in Asaland. Thus he established by law that all dead men should&#xD;&#xA;be burned, and their belongings laid with them upon the pile, and&#xD;&#xA;the ashes be cast into the sea or buried in the earth.  Thus,&#xD;&#xA;said he, every one will come to Valhalla with the riches he had&#xD;&#xA;with him upon the pile; and he would also enjoy whatever he&#xD;&#xA;himself had buried in the earth.  For men of consequence a mound&#xD;&#xA;should be raised to their memory, and for all other warriors who&#xD;&#xA;had been distinguished for manhood a standing stone; which custom&#xD;&#xA;remained long after Odin's time.  On winter day there should be&#xD;&#xA;blood-sacrifice for a good year, and in the middle of winter for&#xD;&#xA;a good crop; and the third sacrifice should be on summer day, for&#xD;&#xA;victory in battle.  Over all Swithiod the people paid Odin a&#xD;&#xA;scatt or tax -- so much on each head; but he had to defend the&#xD;&#xA;country from enemy or disturbance, and pay the expense of the&#xD;&#xA;sacrifice feasts for a good year.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [THE YNGLINGA SAGA, OR THE STORY OF THE YNGLING FAMILY FROM ODIN&#xD;&#xA;TO HALFDAN THE BLACK](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/heim/02ynglga.htm).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The logical conclusion, therefore, is that servants would be sacrificed in order to continue serving their master in the afterlife. How else could their master &quot;enjoy whatever he himself had buried in the earth&quot;?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another hint that the sacrificed slaves were intended as a burial gift can be found in the poem The Short Lay of Sigurth: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 68\. &quot;The door of the hall | shall strike not the heel  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Of the hero fair | with flashing rings,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; If hence my following | goes with him;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Not mean our faring | forth shall be.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 69\. &quot;Bond-women five | shall follow him,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And eight of my thralls, | well-born are they,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Children with me, | and mine they were  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; As gifts that Buthli | his daughter gave.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [SIGURTHARKVITHA EN SKAMMA](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe28.htm).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lastly, I think it's interesting to mention that Ibn Fadlan's narrative may be  supported by archaeological finds: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ten Viking Age individuals from the northern Norwegian site at Flakstad were analysed for δ13C, δ15N and ancient mitochondrial DNA fragments. The material derives from both single and multiple burials with individuals treated in different ways. The genetic analyses show that the individuals buried together were unlikely to be maternally related, and stable isotope analyses suggest different strata of society. It is, therefore, suggested that slaves may have been offered as grave gifts at Flakstad. A comparison with the remaining population from single graves shows that the presumed slaves had a diet similar to that of the common population, whereas the high status individuals in multiple graves had a diet different from both slaves and the common population. The results provide an insight into the subsistence of different social groups in a Viking Age society, exposing unexpected patterns of living conditions and food distribution.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Slaves as burial gifts in Viking Age Norway? Evidence from stable isotope and ancient DNA analyses](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305440313003117), Elise Naumanna, Maja Krzewińskab, Anders Götherströmd, Gunilla Erikssond.&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3398" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="676" RevisionGUID="822bb9f7-29bd-4c5d-8979-09f6f44a6006" CreationDate="2015-05-13T10:35:56.380" UserId="57" Comment="fixed broken book link" Text="There used to be a theory that the Titans were actually the gods of the inhabitants of (geographical) Greece before the Greeks invaded and took it over. The idea there is that the story of [Titanomachy][1] is actually an allegory for the Greek takeover of their modern homeland.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This theory was popular enough back when I was in school 3 decades ago that it was presented to me as fact by an anthropology professor. The best online reference to it I could find today is from an online copy of [The Minoan-Mycenaean Religion and Its Survival in Greek Religion][2] by Martin Persson Nilsson (1950).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Mr. Nilsson, the identity of those chthonic Titan-worshippers would be the Mycenaeans. There's no reason it couldn't be older than that though. Knowing the history of the area, I'd think the [Anatolians][3] (eg [Hittites][4]) would be another possibility (they entered Asia Minor through Greece, so presumably there were at one point similar Indo-European tribes all the way back from there to the PIE homeland somewhere north of the black sea). Backing this up a bit is the fact that some Titans are loosely associated with Asia Minor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm guessing this theory is not currently in favor though, based on its vintage and the trouble I had looking it up online.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanomachy&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.gr/books?id=-OwRuSQQYi0C&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_languages&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3399" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="676" RevisionGUID="194f25cc-9436-418e-a89f-2d6d97bee290" CreationDate="2015-05-13T10:48:53.190" UserId="229" Comment="added 40 characters in body" Text="There used to be a theory that the Titans were actually the gods of the inhabitants of (geographical) Greece before the Greeks invaded and took it over. The idea there is that the story of [Titanomachy][1] is actually an allegory for the Greek takeover of their modern homeland.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This theory was popular enough back when I was in school 3 decades ago that it was presented to me as fact by an anthropology professor. The best online reference to it I could find today is from an online copy of [The Minoan-Mycenaean Religion and Its Survival in Greek Religion][2] by Martin Persson Nilsson (1950).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Mr. Nilsson, the identity of those chthonic Titan-worshippers would be the Mycenaeans. There's no reason it couldn't be older than that though. Knowing the history of the area, I'd think the [Anatolians][3] (eg [Hittites][4]) would be another possibility. They entered Asia Minor through Greece, so presumably there were at one point similar Indo-European tribes all the way back from there to the PIE homeland somewhere north of the black sea. Backing this up a bit is the fact that some Titans are loosely associated with Asia Minor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm guessing this theory is not currently in favor though, based on its vintage and the trouble I had looking it up online.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanomachy&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.de/books?id=-OwRuSQQYi0C&amp;printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_languages&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3401" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="678" RevisionGUID="16c9b714-628d-48cb-bc0b-76d7490cf865" CreationDate="2015-05-13T11:31:56.833" UserId="95" Text="There are a number of different types of syncretic relationships:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some were political, often involving foreign deities. Serapis (making an Egyptian deity who would be acceptable to Greeks), Arensnuphis-Shu, etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some were one god inhabiting another. In the Amduat book, Ra comes to rest in Osiris in the middle of the night, and is recharged for the next day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In others, the -Ra suffix is used to show the other deity taking a cosmic role. Wepwawet-Ra,  Amun-Ra, etc. Sometimes the connection goes in the other direction, as in Ra-Horakhty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Combinations with the goddess Mut showed a motherhood/creator connection. Nekhbet-Mut, Sekhmet-Mut, etc. The &quot;Crossword Hymn to Mut&quot; shows this in an extreme form. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In some cases there's a male/female fusion: Sekhmet (or Mut) and Min. Or Atum (who is both male and female) and some other deity. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In others one deity is acting as the Ba of another. Khnum is the Ba of Ra- (and Ba for a ram-aspect deitiy was a pun for the Egyptians.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Banebdjedet (was said to be the Ba of Ra, Shu, Geb, and Osiris) and was sometimes represented as a four-headed ram. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's a very complex subject. Erik Hornung's &quot;Conceptions of God in ancient Egypt : the One and the Many&quot; is one source to check.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3403" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="676" RevisionGUID="e052889c-c8f0-4335-9d3a-3f2bf0717aec" CreationDate="2015-05-13T11:49:44.003" UserId="229" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body" Text="There used to be a theory that the Titans were actually the gods of the inhabitants of (geographical) Greece before the Greeks invaded and took it over. The idea there is that the story of [Titanomachy][1] is actually an allegory for the Greek takeover of their modern homeland.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This theory was popular enough back when I was in school 3 decades ago that it was presented to me as fact by an anthropology professor. The best online reference to it I could find today is from an online copy of [The Minoan-Mycenaean Religion and Its Survival in Greek Religion][2] by Martin Persson Nilsson (1950).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Mr. Nilsson, the identity of those chthonic Titan-worshippers would be the Mycenaeans. There's no reason it couldn't be older than that though. Knowing the history of the area, I'd think the [Anatolians][3] (eg [Hittites][4]) would be another possibility. They entered Asia Minor through Greece, so presumably there were at one point similar Indo-European tribes all the way back from there to the PIE homeland somewhere north of the black sea. Backing this up a bit is the fact that some Titans are loosely associated with Asia Minor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm guessing this theory is not currently in favor though, based on its vintage and the trouble I had looking it up online.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanomachy&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.de/books?id=-OwRuSQQYi0C&amp;lpg=PP1&amp;pg=PA536#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_languages&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3404" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="676" RevisionGUID="30138dc6-102b-41ae-9c03-ed608a000b29" CreationDate="2015-05-13T11:55:34.073" UserId="229" Comment="added 71 characters in body" Text="There used to be a theory that the Titans were actually the gods of the inhabitants of (geographical) Greece before the Greeks invaded and took it over. The idea there is that the story of [Titanomachy][1] is actually an allegory for the Greek takeover of their modern homeland.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This theory was popular enough back when I was in school 3 decades ago that it was presented to me as fact by an anthropology professor. The best online reference to it I could find today is from an online copy of [The Minoan-Mycenaean Religion and Its Survival in Greek Religion][2] by Martin Persson Nilsson (1950).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Mr. Nilsson, the identity of those chthonic Titan-worshippers would be the [Mycenaeans][3]. There's no reason it couldn't be older than that though. Knowing the history of the area, I'd think the [Anatolians][4] (eg [Hittites][5]) would be another possibility. They entered Asia Minor through Greece, so presumably there were at one point similar Indo-European tribes all the way back from there to the [PIE][6] homeland somewhere north of the black sea. Backing this up a bit is the fact that some Titans are loosely associated with Asia Minor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm guessing this theory is not currently in favor though, based on its vintage and the trouble I had looking it up online.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanomachy&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.de/books?id=-OwRuSQQYi0C&amp;lpg=PP1&amp;pg=PA536#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_Greece&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_languages&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3407" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="678" RevisionGUID="6a48f2c9-4bda-41ed-9271-47898f8e172c" CreationDate="2015-05-13T13:25:21.727" UserId="11" Comment="Added links" Text="There are a number of different types of syncretic relationships:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some were political, often involving foreign deities. Serapis (making an Egyptian deity who would be acceptable to Greeks), Arensnuphis-Shu, etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some were one god inhabiting another. In [the Amduat book](http://www.wisdomlib.org/egypt/book/the-book-of-am-tuat/index.html), Ra comes to rest in Osiris in the middle of the night, and is recharged for the next day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In others, the -Ra suffix is used to show the other deity taking a cosmic role. Wepwawet-Ra,  Amun-Ra, etc. Sometimes the connection goes in the other direction, as in Ra-Horakhty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Combinations with the goddess Mut showed a motherhood/creator connection. Nekhbet-Mut, Sekhmet-Mut, etc. The [Crossword Hymn to Mut](http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3855946?uid=3739920&amp;uid=2&amp;uid=4&amp;uid=3739256&amp;sid=21106810676963) shows this in an extreme form. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In some cases there's a male/female fusion: Sekhmet (or Mut) and Min. Or Atum (who is both male and female) and some other deity. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In others one deity is acting as the Ba of another. Khnum is the Ba of Ra- (and Ba for a ram-aspect deitiy was a pun for the Egyptians.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Banebdjedet (was said to be the Ba of Ra, Shu, Geb, and Osiris) and was sometimes represented as a four-headed ram. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's a very complex subject. [Erik Hornung's &quot;Conceptions of God in ancient Egypt : the One and the Many&quot;](http://amzn.com/0801483840) is one source to check.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3408" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="676" RevisionGUID="732f040f-2b9c-4701-9631-4198d2d08519" CreationDate="2015-05-13T13:27:40.477" UserId="229" Comment="deleted 25 characters in body" Text="There used to be a theory that the Titans were actually the gods of the inhabitants of (geographical) Greece before the Greeks invaded and took it over. The idea there is that the story of [Titanomachy][1] is actually an allegory for the Greek takeover of their modern homeland.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This theory was popular enough back when I was in school 3 decades ago that it was presented to me as fact by an anthropology professor. The best online reference to it I could find today is from an online copy of [The Minoan-Mycenaean Religion and Its Survival in Greek Religion][2] by Martin Persson Nilsson (1950).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Mr. Nilsson, the identity of those chthonic Titan-worshippers would be the [Mycenaeans][3]. There's no reason it couldn't be older than that though. Knowing the history of the area, I'd think the [Anatolians][4] (eg [Hittites][5]) would be another possibility. Backing this up a bit is the fact that some Titans are loosely associated with Asia Minor. Another good possibility is the original non-Indo-European inhabitants of the area (who we have little record of, aside from the Minoans and some other nearby islands).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm guessing this theory is not currently in favor though, based on its vintage and the trouble I had looking it up online.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanomachy&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.de/books?id=-OwRuSQQYi0C&amp;lpg=PP1&amp;pg=PA536#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_Greece&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_languages&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3409" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="659" RevisionGUID="667979ff-d644-498f-91da-af781eb3261a" CreationDate="2015-05-13T14:33:57.500" UserId="42" Comment="Possible source of confusion?" Text="Did ancient Egyptian gods have weapons, like the Greek gods (Zeus's thunderbolt or Poseidon's trident, for example)? If so, who made them? I've never read anywhere where they had weapons." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3412" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="679" RevisionGUID="78eab1db-d2fd-4aae-90a4-515badcb3ba3" CreationDate="2015-05-13T15:02:01.820" UserId="183" Text="1. **[The dragons trapped by Lludd.](http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/lludd.html)**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; In *The Adventure of Lludd and Llefelys*, there are three plagues which fall upon Britain. The second is a horrible screech that renders the inhabitants scared. King Lludd, on the advice of his brother, Llefelys, builds a pit in the center of Britain, at Oxford. He traps the dragons responsible for the screeches by getting them drunk with mead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt; This dragon is being attacked by a foreign enemy. The burial of the two dragons keeps Britain safe from invasion (making it one of the Three Concealments, until they are revealed again by Vortigern (one of the Three Disclosures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. **[The Bones of Gwerhefyr Fendigaid.](http://www.nightsoftheroad.com/category/the-mabinogion/)**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt; The other two are the Bones of Gwerhefyr Fendigaid, buried in various ‘great ports’ around the coast, and the Dragons which Lludd ap Beli or Lugh of the Silver Hand, Celtic god of health and healing, captured at Oxford – center of the ancient kingdom – and buried in Dinas Emrys in Snowdonia, deemed to be the strongest part of the island.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; The Concealments are also detailed [here](http://www.vortigernstudies.org.uk/artsou/triadstex.htm), in what seems to be an original manuscript, *The Welsh Triads*, from the 14th century:&#xD;&#xA; &gt; The Head of Bran the Blessed, son of Llyr, which was buried in the White Hill in London. And as long as the Head was there in that position, no Oppression would ever come to this Island;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The second: the Bones of Gwerthefyr the Blessed, which were buried in the Chief Ports of this Island;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The third: the Dragons which Lludd son of Beli buried in Dinas Emrys in Eryri.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; This text also details the Three Unfortunate Disclosures:&#xD;&#xA; &gt; And there were the Three Unfortunate Disclosures when these were disclosed.&#xD;&#xA;And Gwrtheyrn the Thin disclosed the bones of Gwerthefyr the Blessed form the love of a woman: that was Ronnwen the pagan woman;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And it was he who disclosed the Dragons;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And Arthur disclosed the head of Bran the Blessed from the White Hill, because it did not seem right to him that this Island should be defended by the strenght of anyone, but by his own." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3419" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="681" RevisionGUID="96fe1d51-e42b-4b90-a7f3-75c24e84ddfb" CreationDate="2015-05-13T17:31:52.233" UserId="42" Text="The four tiered headress is frequently repeated in representations mesopotamian deities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some other examples include:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - the [Burney Relief](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burney_Relief), which depicts either Inanna or Ereshkigal:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Depiction of Shamash on a [Hammurabi stele](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - A bust of an unknown god&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - A relief of [Enki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enki)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![the Burney Relief][1]     ![Hammurabi stele][2]   ![Bust of an unknown god][3]  ![Enki][4]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These do seem to be worn by the most important deities, which seems to line up roughly with the gods Samuel Noah Kramer as the &quot;Gods who Decree&quot;, which includes:  Anu, Enlil, Enki, Ninhursag, Inanna, Nanna and Shamash.  And, if we conclude the Burney Relief is Ereshkigal, then her too I suppose.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lesser gods seem to often wear hats like this one (shown on Nergal):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Nergal with hat][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as the horned helmet on the lower seal, the fellow on the right has noticeably bovine legs and tail.  The horns are probably not intended to be a helmet, but rather part of the depiction of him being half-animal.  Similar depiction seen here:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Another possible Enkidu][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Mw6DP.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/yitqJ.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/3WgPH.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/vY3t7.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/1pBHe.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/lVe39.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3420" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="630" RevisionGUID="0981037a-dc19-4ae4-bbad-f834d89dd518" CreationDate="2015-05-13T18:23:14.750" UserId="183" Comment="added 197 characters in body" Text="In [the fourth branch of the Mabinogion](http://www.mabinogi.net/math.htm), Gwydion and company move through the areas surrounding the court of Dryfed after receiving pigs from Pryderi:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; That night they made it as far as the uplands of Ceredigion - and the place [where they stopped] is still called 'Mochdref' because of that. The next day they went on their way [and] they came through Elenid. That night they were between Keri and Arwystli, in a township that is also called 'Mochtref' for that reason. And thense they went onwards, and that night they came to a commote in Powys which is likewise called 'Mochnant' after that incident, and they were there for the night. And from there they went on as far as the cantref of Rhos, and there they were that night in a town still known as 'Mochtref'.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Mochdref&quot; literally translates to &quot;Pig town&quot;, and &quot;Mochnant&quot; literally translates to &quot;Pig valley&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The same thing later happens at a town thereafter known as Creuwyryon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What were the original names of the four places thereafter known as Mochdref, Mochtref, Mochnant and Mochtref?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;It appears that the name [&quot;Mochnant&quot;](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mochnant) has survived, indicating that these places may not been simply figments of a tale, but real towns.&lt;/sup&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3421" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="682" RevisionGUID="5c3bffea-62c9-47a0-beea-d0f9c6b2cedd" CreationDate="2015-05-13T18:33:10.297" UserId="42" Text="Earlier in the Tain Bo Cuailnge, [Fergus Mac Roich and Cuchulainn meet for single combat](http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/Fergus.html).  At this time, Fergus makes an arrangement with Cuchulainn, that if Cuchulainn yeilds to him in their single combat, Fergus will yield when [they meet in battle of the Tain](http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/Muster.html).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why couldn't a similar arrangement have been reached when he was [forced to meet Ferdiad mac Damain](http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/Ferdiad.html), his foster-brother, in single combat as well?  They are both young and hot-headeed, but by the third day of their combat it seems clear that Ferdiad regrets the battle:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Culann's Hound, with floods of deeds,  &#xD;&#xA;Medb, not thou, hath us betrayed;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yet both combatants seem to find there is no choice but to continue the battle to the death.  So what makes the situation different from the earlier meeting with Fergus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3422" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="682" RevisionGUID="5c3bffea-62c9-47a0-beea-d0f9c6b2cedd" CreationDate="2015-05-13T18:33:10.297" UserId="42" Text="Why couldn't Cuchulainn yield to Ferdiad (or vice versa)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3423" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="682" RevisionGUID="5c3bffea-62c9-47a0-beea-d0f9c6b2cedd" CreationDate="2015-05-13T18:33:10.297" UserId="42" Text="|irish|ulster-cycle|tain-bo-cuailnge|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3425" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="683" RevisionGUID="1cb4b069-9f60-4665-9abc-921712deb5a6" CreationDate="2015-05-13T18:50:09.637" UserId="183" Text="[Medb, the queen, had previously offered Ferdiad great rewards](http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/Ferdiad.html):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And when Ferdiad was come into the camp, he was honoured and waited on, and choice, well-flavoured strong liquor was poured out for him till he became drunken and merry. Great rewards were promised him if he would make the fight and combat, namely a chariot worth four times seven bondmaids, and the apparel of two men and ten men, of cloth of every colour, and the equivalent of the Plain of Murthemne of the rich Plain of Ai, free of tribute, without duress for his son, or for his grandson, or for his great-grandson, till the end of time and existence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Medb: &quot;Champions will be surety,  &#xD;&#xA;Thou needst not keep hostings.  &#xD;&#xA;Reins and splendid horses  &#xD;&#xA;Shall be given as pledge!  &#xD;&#xA;Ferdiad, good, of battle,  &#xD;&#xA;For that thou art dauntless,  &#xD;&#xA;Thou shalt be my lover,  &#xD;&#xA;Past all, free of cain!&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ferdiad: &quot;Without bond I'll go not  &#xD;&#xA;To engage in ford-feats;  &#xD;&#xA;It will live till doomsday  &#xD;&#xA;In full strength and force.  &#xD;&#xA;Ne'er I'll yield-- who hears me,  &#xD;&#xA;Whoe'er counts upon me--  &#xD;&#xA;Without sun- and moon-oath,  &#xD;&#xA;Without sea and land!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Medb also manipulates him by twisting his foster-brother's words:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Ye men,&quot; spake Medb, in the wonted fashion of stirring up disunion and dissension, &quot;true is the word Cuchulain speaks.&quot; &quot;What word is that?&quot; asked Ferdiad. **&quot;He said, then,&quot; replied Medb, &quot;he would not think it too much if thou shouldst fall by his hands in the choicest feat of his skill in arms, in the land whereto he should come.&quot; &quot;It was not just for him to speak so,&quot; quoth Ferdiad; &quot;for it is not cowardice or lack of boldness that he hath ever seen in me.** And I swear by my arms of valour, if it be true that he spoke so, I will be the first man of the men of Erin to contend with him on the morrow!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This](http://www.shee-eire.com/Magic&amp;Mythology/Warriors&amp;Heroes/Warriors/Males/Ferdiad/Page1.htm) interprets Medb's words not just as poison, but as a threat:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ferdiad does not want to fight Cúchulainn but he is threatened with satires about himself and his family if he does not comply to the wishes of Medb.  He had already refused her gifts of a chariot and the hand of her daughter Finnabair in marriage, the threat of being a figure of fun for all eternity proves too much for Ferdiad and he reluctantly consents to fight his foster brother.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Also](http://www.shee-eire.com/Magic&amp;Mythology/Myths/Cuchulainn/Ferdiad/page%201.htm), Cúchulainn apparently thought there was no way out:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thus Ferdiad went into combat albeit reluctantly.  Cúchulainn greeted him in a friendly manner only to be told by Ferdiad that due to circumstances beyond his control he had come to do battle instead of renewing their friendship.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, in summary:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Medb twisted Cúchulainn's words to anger Ferdiad, and alternately threatened him and promised rewards.&#xD;&#xA; - Cúchulainn thought, for whatever reason, that there was no other way out." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3426" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="681" RevisionGUID="cffbcc28-153a-47af-b069-ee7261eb724b" CreationDate="2015-05-13T19:01:22.080" UserId="42" Comment="added 14 characters in body" Text="The four tiered headress is frequently repeated in representations mesopotamian deities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some other examples include:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - the [Burney Relief](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burney_Relief), which depicts either Inanna or Ereshkigal:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Depiction of Shamash on a [Hammurabi stele](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - A bust of an unknown god&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - A relief of [Enki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enki)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![the Burney Relief][1]     ![Hammurabi stele][2]   ![Bust of an unknown god][3]  ![Enki][4]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These do seem to be worn by the most important deities, which seems to line up roughly with the gods Samuel Noah Kramer as the &quot;Gods who Decree&quot;, which includes:  Anu, Enlil, Enki, Ninhursag, Inanna, Nanna and Shamash.  And, if we conclude the Burney Relief is Ereshkigal, then her too I suppose.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lesser gods seem to often wear hats like this one (shown on Nergal):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Nergal with hat][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as the horned helmet on the lower seal, the fellow on the right has noticeably bovine legs and tail.  The horns are probably not intended to be a helmet, but rather part of the depiction of him being half-animal.  Similar depiction seen here:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Another possible Enkidu][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Mw6DP.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/yitqJ.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/3WgPH.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/vY3t7.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/1pBHe.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/lVe39.jpg &quot;Quit looking at the camera, Gilgamesh!&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3427" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="684" RevisionGUID="9f53cfa2-4092-4d03-bedd-f6d1d99b657d" CreationDate="2015-05-13T20:03:32.503" UserId="14" Text="**No, Kalki only comes in this Kali Yuga, not every Kali Yuga.**  Let me first explain a bit about Hindu timescales.  The four Yugas known as Satya, Treta, Dwapara, and Kali together make up one Mahayuga, and a thousand Mahayugas make up one Kalpa or day of Brahma.  But in addition to being divided into 1000 Mahayugas, a Kalpa is also divided into fourteen Manvantaras, each of which is made up of about 71 Mahayugas.  We're currently living in the seventh Manvantara of the present Kalpa, known as the Vaivasvata Manavantara, and we're living in the 28th Kali Yuga of the Vaivasvata Manvantara.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now that we have some background, in [this chapter][1] of the Matsya Purana (an important Hindu scripture), various incarnations of Vishnu in the present Vaivasvata Manvantara.  But Kalki is only mentioned once, and that is in the current Kali Yuga.  [This excerpt][2] from the Skanda Purana says the same thing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And we can find explicit references to how Kali Yugas have ended in the past.  In particular, [this chapter][3] of the famous Hindu epic the Mahabharata describes how Vishnu's incarnation Parashurama brought about the 20th Satya Yuga of the Vaivasvata Manvantara by killing the kings of the world:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Even the great ascetic Rama, the hero worshipped by all heroes, that son of Jamadagni, of great fame, will die, without being contented (with the period of his life). **Rooting out all evils from the earth, he caused the primeval Yuga to set in.** Having obtained unrivalled prosperity, no fault could be seen in him. His father having been slain and his calf having been stolen by the Kshatriyas, he without any boast, slew Kartavirya who had never been vanquished before by foes. With his bow he slew four and sixty times ten thousand Kshatriyas already within the jaws of death. In that slaughter were included fourteen thousand Brahmana-hating Kshatriyas of the Dantakura country, all of whom he slew. Of the Haihayas, he slew a thousand with his short club, a thousand with his sword, and a thousand by hanging. Heroic warriors, with their cars, steeds, and elephants, lay dead on the field, slain by the wise son of Jamadagni, enraged at the slaughter of his father. And Rama, on that occasion, slew ten thousand Kshatriyas with his axe. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact, as far as I know there was only one other occasion where Vishnu took a Kalki incarnation.  The Kalki incarnation was named Pramati, and he seems to have lived in the Swayambhuva Manvantara, the first Manvantara of the present Kalpa.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By the way, if you're interested in those lists of Vaivasvata Manvantara incarnations found in the Matsya and Skanda Puranas, I've posted a few questions about them on Hinduism.SE, [here][4], [here][5], and [here][6].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=nckrAAAAMAAJ&amp;dq=%2224th%20treta%22&amp;pg=PA138#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.indianscriptures.com/Content/Articles/PDFs/27478/62f_chapter_19_2.pdf#toolbar=0&amp;pagemode=none&amp;view=FitBH&amp;page=1%22&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://Even%20the%20great%20ascetic%20Rama,%20the%20hero%20worshipped%20by%20all%20heroes,%20that%20son%20of%20Jamadagni,%20of%20great%20fame,%20will%20die,%20without%20being&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://hinduism.stackexchange.com/q/7192/36&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://hinduism.stackexchange.com/q/7194/36&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://hinduism.stackexchange.com/q/7221/36" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3428" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="683" RevisionGUID="928ad598-852c-4ad0-8fca-6e051e870578" CreationDate="2015-05-13T20:35:45.793" UserId="183" Comment="added 377 characters in body" Text="[Medb, the queen, had previously offered Ferdiad great rewards](http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/Ferdiad.html):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And when Ferdiad was come into the camp, he was honoured and waited on, and choice, well-flavoured strong liquor was poured out for him till he became drunken and merry. Great rewards were promised him if he would make the fight and combat, namely a chariot worth four times seven bondmaids, and the apparel of two men and ten men, of cloth of every colour, and the equivalent of the Plain of Murthemne of the rich Plain of Ai, free of tribute, without duress for his son, or for his grandson, or for his great-grandson, till the end of time and existence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Medb: &quot;Champions will be surety,  &#xD;&#xA;Thou needst not keep hostings.  &#xD;&#xA;Reins and splendid horses  &#xD;&#xA;Shall be given as pledge!  &#xD;&#xA;Ferdiad, good, of battle,  &#xD;&#xA;For that thou art dauntless,  &#xD;&#xA;Thou shalt be my lover,  &#xD;&#xA;Past all, free of cain!&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ferdiad: &quot;Without bond I'll go not  &#xD;&#xA;To engage in ford-feats;  &#xD;&#xA;It will live till doomsday  &#xD;&#xA;In full strength and force.  &#xD;&#xA;Ne'er I'll yield-- who hears me,  &#xD;&#xA;Whoe'er counts upon me--  &#xD;&#xA;Without sun- and moon-oath,  &#xD;&#xA;Without sea and land!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Medb also manipulates him by twisting his foster-brother's words:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Ye men,&quot; spake Medb, in the wonted fashion of stirring up disunion and dissension, &quot;true is the word Cuchulain speaks.&quot; &quot;What word is that?&quot; asked Ferdiad. **&quot;He said, then,&quot; replied Medb, &quot;he would not think it too much if thou shouldst fall by his hands in the choicest feat of his skill in arms, in the land whereto he should come.&quot; &quot;It was not just for him to speak so,&quot; quoth Ferdiad; &quot;for it is not cowardice or lack of boldness that he hath ever seen in me.** And I swear by my arms of valour, if it be true that he spoke so, I will be the first man of the men of Erin to contend with him on the morrow!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This](http://www.shee-eire.com/Magic&amp;Mythology/Warriors&amp;Heroes/Warriors/Males/Ferdiad/Page1.htm) interprets Medb's words not just as poison, but as a threat:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ferdiad does not want to fight Cúchulainn but he is threatened with satires about himself and his family if he does not comply to the wishes of Medb.  He had already refused her gifts of a chariot and the hand of her daughter Finnabair in marriage, the threat of being a figure of fun for all eternity proves too much for Ferdiad and he reluctantly consents to fight his foster brother.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Also](http://www.shee-eire.com/Magic&amp;Mythology/Myths/Cuchulainn/Ferdiad/page%201.htm), Cúchulainn apparently thought there was no way out:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thus Ferdiad went into combat albeit reluctantly.  Cúchulainn greeted him in a friendly manner only to be told by Ferdiad that due to circumstances beyond his control he had come to do battle instead of renewing their friendship.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Later](http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/Ferdiad.html), he said&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cuchulain: &quot;I'm come before warriors  &#xD;&#xA; Around the herd's wild Boar,  &#xD;&#xA; Before troops and hundreds,  &#xD;&#xA; To drown thee in deep  &#xD;&#xA; In anger, to prove thee  &#xD;&#xA; In hundred-fold battle,  &#xD;&#xA; Till on thee come havoc,  &#xD;&#xA; Defending thy head!&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, in summary:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Medb twisted Cúchulainn's words to anger Ferdiad, and alternately threatened him and promised rewards.&#xD;&#xA; - Cúchulainn thought, for whatever reason, that there was no other way out, and was determined to defend those he was fighting for." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3429" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="472" RevisionGUID="31e61e30-6851-49e2-8c3b-10720ee2a076" CreationDate="2015-05-13T20:51:51.370" UserId="183" Comment="added 158 characters in body" Text="First, there was nothing. Absolutely nothing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the beginning there was only Chaos. Then out of the void appeared Erebus, the unknowable place where death dwells, and Night. All else was empty, silent, endless, dark. Then, Love was born bringing along the beginning of order. From Love emerged Light, followed by Gaea, the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;http://www.greekmythology.com/Myths/The_Myths/The_Creation/the_creation.html&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That's one version. Another explanation is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It all started when Chaos, Gaea (Earth) and Eros started sleeping with each other, leading to the Gods. So, in Greek mythology, the creation of the world starts with the creation of the different classes of Gods. In this instance, the term 'gods' refers to the characters that ruled the Earth (without necessarily possessing any divine attributes) until the 'real' Gods, the Olympians, came.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;http://www.greekmythology.com/Myths/The_Myths/The_Creation_II/the_creation_ii.html&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These are based in Hesiod's *Theogony*. I was able to find [an actual quote from it](http://www.theoi.com/greek-mythology/primeval-gods.html):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Declare to me from the beginning, you Mousai who dwell in the house of Olympos, and tell me which of them first came to be.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In truth at first Khaos (Air) came to be, but next wide-bosomed Gaia (Earth), the ever-sure foundation of all the deathless ones who hold the peaks of snowy Olympos, and dim Tartaros (the Pit) in the depth of the wide-pathed Earth, and Eros (Love), fairest among the deathless gods, who unnerves the limbs and overcomes the mind and wise counsels of all gods and all men within them. From Khaos (Air) came forth Erebos (Darkness) and black Nyx (Night); but of Nyx (Night) were born Aither (Light) and Hemera (Day), whom she conceived and bore from union in love with Erebos. And Gaia (Earth) first bore starry Ouranos (Heaven), equal to herself, to cover her on every side, and to be an ever-sure abiding-place for the blessed gods. And she brought forth long Ourea (Mountains), graceful haunts of the goddess Nymphai who dwell amongst the glens of the hills. She bore also the fruitless deep with his raging swell, Pontos (Sea), without sweet union of love.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But afterwards he [Gaia, Earth] lay with Ouranos (Heaven) and bare deep-swirling Okeanos, Koios and Krios and Hyperion and Iapetos, Theia and Rhea, Themis and Mnemosyne and gold-crowned Phoibe and lovely Tethys. After them was born Kronos the wily.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; -- Hesiod, Theogony 115&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aristophanes had a slightly different version:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At the beginning there was only Khaos (Air), Nyx (Night), dark Erebos (Darkness), and deep Tartaros (Hell's Pit). Ge (Earth), Aer (Air) and Ouranos (Heaven) had no existence. Firstly, black-winged Nyx (Night) laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebos (Darkness), and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros (Love) with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartaros (Hell-Pit) with dark Khaos (Air), winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race [the birds], which was the first to see the light. That of the Immortals did not exist until Eros had brought together all the ingredients of the world, and from their marriage Ouranos (Heaven), Okeanos (Ocean), Ge (Earth) and the imperishable race of blessed gods (Theoi) sprang into being.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; -- Aristophanes, Birds 685&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In both cases, Gaea is understood to be a personification of the Earth; the same goes for Chaos, Erebus/Erebos, Eros, and many of the others.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For information on just *how* Gaea begat her children, see http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/650/how-were-the-first-children-of-gaia-conceived." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3430" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="681" RevisionGUID="c7db9a9b-49df-4fcc-9dff-5db879415a87" CreationDate="2015-05-13T21:07:43.850" UserId="42" Comment="added 49 characters in body" Text="The [four-tiered headress](http://www.naitimp3.ru/img/artist/_/78867.jpg) is frequently repeated in representations mesopotamian deities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some other examples include:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - the [Burney Relief](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burney_Relief), which depicts either Inanna or Ereshkigal:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Depiction of Shamash on a [Hammurabi stele](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - A bust of an unknown god&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - A relief of [Enki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enki)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![the Burney Relief][1]     ![Hammurabi stele][2]   ![Bust of an unknown god][3]  ![Enki][4]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These do seem to be worn by the most important deities, which seems to line up roughly with the gods Samuel Noah Kramer as the &quot;Gods who Decree&quot;, which includes:  Anu, Enlil, Enki, Ninhursag, Inanna, Nanna and Shamash.  And, if we conclude the Burney Relief is Ereshkigal, then her too I suppose.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lesser gods seem to often wear hats like this one (shown on Nergal):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Nergal with hat][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as the horned helmet on the lower seal, the fellow on the right has noticeably bovine legs and tail.  The horns are probably not intended to be a helmet, but rather part of the depiction of him being half-animal.  Similar depiction seen here:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Another possible Enkidu][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Mw6DP.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/yitqJ.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/3WgPH.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/vY3t7.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/1pBHe.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/lVe39.jpg &quot;Quit looking at the camera, Gilgamesh!&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3431" PostHistoryTypeId="11" PostId="659" RevisionGUID="153d6a85-05c5-45c4-a9c4-df733d09746f" CreationDate="2015-05-13T22:10:08.127" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:42,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;femtoRgon&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:183,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;HDE 226868&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:171,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Deion&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:28,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Jody&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:31,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Robert Longson&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="3432" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="685" RevisionGUID="43712630-ddf5-4d96-8dd1-86618db41086" CreationDate="2015-05-13T22:43:58.093" UserId="183" Text="*[The Dream of Macsen Wledig](http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/macsen.html)* is a Welsh tale that may be loosely based on Emperor [Magnus Maximus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_Maximus), of Rome. The story tracks his search for a fair maiden he sees in a dream, eventually bringing him to Britain, where he finds the lady he seeks. Learning that he has been replaced as emperoro, he rushes back to Rome with his newly-wedded wife.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does this story appear in Roman folklore? It somewhat corresponds to historical events involving Magnus Maximus, but other parts seem to be embellished. Also, Welsh folklore typically involves Welsh heroes and nobles; it seems rather odd to have a legend told from a Roman perspective. I suspect that Romans in Britain could have influenced the story, but I'm not sure." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3433" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="685" RevisionGUID="43712630-ddf5-4d96-8dd1-86618db41086" CreationDate="2015-05-13T22:43:58.093" UserId="183" Text="Does Roman folklore feature an account of The Dream of Macsen Wledig?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3434" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="685" RevisionGUID="43712630-ddf5-4d96-8dd1-86618db41086" CreationDate="2015-05-13T22:43:58.093" UserId="183" Text="|roman|welsh|mabinogion|the-native-tales|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3439" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="685" RevisionGUID="7e0824ee-a891-407d-8510-d3eaeb9fe030" CreationDate="2015-05-14T07:43:17.073" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="*[The Dream of Macsen Wledig](http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/macsen.html)* is a Welsh tale that may be loosely based on Emperor [Magnus Maximus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_Maximus), of Rome. The story tracks his search for a fair maiden he sees in a dream, eventually bringing him to Britain, where he finds the lady he seeks. Learning that he has been replaced as emperor, he rushes back to Rome with his newly-wedded wife.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does this story appear in Roman folklore? It somewhat corresponds to historical events involving Magnus Maximus, but other parts seem to be embellished. Also, Welsh folklore typically involves Welsh heroes and nobles; it seems rather odd to have a legend told from a Roman perspective. I suspect that Romans in Britain could have influenced the story, but I'm not sure." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3440" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="675" RevisionGUID="a3e858b5-254c-413e-959e-c289c6f36e65" CreationDate="2015-05-14T08:12:10.067" UserId="29" Comment="added some links" Text="[Sacrifice][1] is a common practice in the [Norse pagan religion][2]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**Sacrifice** `(blót)` played a huge role in most of the rituals that are known about today, and communal feasting on the meat of sacrificed animals, [...] **The purpose of these sacrifices was to ensure fertility and growth.** However, sudden crises or transitions such as births, weddings and burials could also be the reason. In those times there was a clear distinction between private and public faith, and the rituals were thus tied either to the household and the individual or to the structures of society.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Wikipedia][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The writings of [Ibn Fadlan][4], specifically [Ibn Fadlan and the Rusiyyah][5], inform us of a strange phenomenon of human sacrifice:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **When their chieftain dies, his family ask his slave-girls and slave-boys, &#xD;&#xA;“Who among you will die with him?”** and some of them reply, “I shall.” &#xD;&#xA;Having said this, it becomes incumbent upon the person and it is impossible &#xD;&#xA;ever to turn back. Should that person try to, he is not permitted to do so. It is &#xD;&#xA;usually slave-girls who make this offer.  [...]  I quizzed the interpreter about her actions and he said, **“The first time &#xD;&#xA;they lifted her, she said, ‘Behold, I see my father and my mother.’ The &#xD;&#xA;second time she said, ‘Behold, I see all of my dead kindred, seated.’ The &#xD;&#xA;third time she said, ‘Behold, I see my master, seated in Paradise. Paradise &#xD;&#xA;is beautiful and verdant. He is accompanied by his men and his male-&#xD;&#xA;slaves.** He summons me, so bring me to him.’” So they brought her to &#xD;&#xA;the ship and she removed two bracelets that she was wearing, handing &#xD;&#xA;them to the woman called the “Angel of Death,” the one who was to kill &#xD;&#xA;her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; Source: [Ibn Fadlan and the Rusiyyah][6] &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why was there a need to [sacrifice][7] slaves after their master's death? Didn't people at the time believe that a chieftain, being a person of high importance, would enter [Valhalla][9]? If so, why would a [slave][10] be allowed to enter [Valhalla][11]?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrifice&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_religion&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_ibn_Fadlan&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/montgo1.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/montgo1.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrifice&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valhalla&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valhalla" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3441" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="674" RevisionGUID="a219cde4-7e4d-4bf8-8361-e0bae2f63f15" CreationDate="2015-05-14T08:33:46.033" UserId="111" Comment="added 839 characters in body" Text="Actually the list of moon-goddesses goes on since, according to Selene's [Theoi](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Selene.html) page:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Other Greek moon goddesses included Pasiphae, the Leukippides, Eileithyia, Hekate, Artemis, Bendis, and Hera (who sometimes doubled for Selene in the Endymion myth).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But let's focus first on the one you mentioned:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Artemis](http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Artemis.html). Her association with the moon seems relatively straight-forward: if Apollo is associated with the Sun, then his sister has to be associated with the moon.&#xD;&#xA; - [Selene](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Selene.html) (= Mene or Luna). She is the proper Titan-goddess of the Moon, often even the personnification of the moon itself. See among many other sources, Apollonius Rhodius's *Argonautica*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Rising from the distant east, the Lady Selene (Moon), Titanian goddess...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Phoibe/Phoebe](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanisPhoibe.html). The Titan Phoibe doesn't actually seem to be associated with the moon, the confusion comes from Selene being often nicknamed Phoebe (i. e. *'bright'*). Phoibe was apparently a prophetess Titan-goddess and as such is supposed to have held the Oracle of Delphi at some point. From the first line of Aeschylus's [*Eumenides*](http://classics.mit.edu/Aeschylus/eumendides.html):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;THE PYTHIAN PRIESTESS  &#xD;&#xA;First, in this prayer, of all the gods I name   &#xD;&#xA;The prophet-mother Earth; and Themis next,   &#xD;&#xA;Second who sat-for so with truth is said-   &#xD;&#xA;On this her mother's shrine oracular.   &#xD;&#xA;Then by her grace, who unconstrained allowed,   &#xD;&#xA;There sat thereon another child of Earth-   &#xD;&#xA;Titanian Phoebe.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA; - Hecate. Now Hecate is something else I think. As one can see on her [Theoi](http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Hekate.html) page, the different sources tend to contradict each other on her parentage, descendance, attributions etc. leading some scholars to think that Hecate was in fact a goddess foreign to the Greek Pantheon that was only added later (and well integrated thanks to Hesiod *Hymn to Hecate* and the place he gave her in the *Theogony*). See for instance what Sarah Johnston says about it in [*Restless Deads*](https://books.google.de/books?id=qbihKIJw_OUC&amp;lpg=PP1&amp;pg=PA205#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Let us go back further, to Hecate's place of origin. There is general agreement that this was Caria, in southwestern Asia Minor, which is supported by the fact that by the Hellenistic period her precinct in Lagina was the largest of all the precincts there (in constrast, in all of Greece, only Aegina seems to have had any significant sanctuary devoted wholly to Hecate).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Caria being in southwestern Anatolia.&#xD;&#xA;Similarly (from the list I mentioned earlier), [Pasiphae](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Pasiphae.html) seems to have been the cretan moon-goddess and [Bendis](http://www.theoi.com/Thrakios/Bendis.html) the one from Thrace.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The specific reason why Hecate was associated with the moon seems a bit complex. Originally, in Caria, Hecate seems to have been a fairly generic mother Goddess. Even in Hesiod's *Theogony* she is presented as having dominion over basically everything. According to Sarah Johnston in *[Hekate Soteira: A Study of Hekate's Role in the Chaldean Oracles and Related Literature](https://books.google.de/books?ei=9FlUVd7JLce5UbrxgcgH&amp;id=pyp-AAAAMAAJ)* (which I haven't been able to find and thus read so I might be misrepresenting her idea here), the association came relatively late (1st Century AD) from the fact that at some point Hecate was seen as a &quot;*liminal*&quot; goddess, an intermediary between two worlds (hence also probably the association between Hecate and witchcraft), which is a quality that was supposedly shared by the Moon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;___&#xD;&#xA;So to summarize, the difference between Selene and Artemis is that one *is*  the moon while the other is just associated with it, and on top of that one is a Titan while the other is an Olympian; Phoebe has nothing to do with the moon; and the others are foreign/regional goddesses integrated *a posteriori*  into the Greek Pantheon." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3442" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="674" RevisionGUID="a7d9f7a0-89f5-4a3e-a6ca-79ebd7a7726f" CreationDate="2015-05-14T08:40:26.683" UserId="111" Comment="added 839 characters in body" Text="Actually the list of moon-goddesses goes on since, according to Selene's [Theoi](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Selene.html) page:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Other Greek moon goddesses included Pasiphae, the Leukippides, Eileithyia, Hekate, Artemis, Bendis, and Hera (who sometimes doubled for Selene in the Endymion myth).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But let's focus first on the one you mentioned:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Artemis](http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Artemis.html). Her association with the moon seems relatively straight-forward: if Apollo is associated with the Sun, then his sister has to be associated with the moon.&#xD;&#xA; - [Selene](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Selene.html) (= Mene or Luna). She is the proper Titan-goddess of the Moon, often even the personnification of the moon itself. See among many other sources, Apollonius Rhodius's *Argonautica*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Rising from the distant east, the Lady Selene (Moon), Titanian goddess...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Phoibe/Phoebe](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanisPhoibe.html). The Titan Phoibe doesn't actually seem to be associated with the moon, the confusion comes from Selene being often nicknamed Phoebe (i. e. *'bright'*). Phoibe was apparently a prophetess Titan-goddess and as such is supposed to have held the Oracle of Delphi at some point. From the first line of Aeschylus's [*Eumenides*](http://classics.mit.edu/Aeschylus/eumendides.html):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;THE PYTHIAN PRIESTESS  &#xD;&#xA;First, in this prayer, of all the gods I name   &#xD;&#xA;The prophet-mother Earth; and Themis next,   &#xD;&#xA;Second who sat-for so with truth is said-   &#xD;&#xA;On this her mother's shrine oracular.   &#xD;&#xA;Then by her grace, who unconstrained allowed,   &#xD;&#xA;There sat thereon another child of Earth-   &#xD;&#xA;Titanian Phoebe.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA; - [Hecate](http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Hekate.html). Now Hecate is something else I think. The different sources we have tend to contradict each other on her parentage, descendance, attributions etc. leading some scholars to think that Hecate was in fact a goddess foreign to the Greek Pantheon that was only added later (and well integrated thanks to the place Hesiod gave her in the *Theogony*). See for instance what Sarah Johnston says about it in [*Restless Deads*](https://books.google.de/books?id=qbihKIJw_OUC&amp;lpg=PP1&amp;pg=PA205#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Let us go back further, to Hecate's place of origin. There is general agreement that this was Caria, in southwestern Asia Minor, which is supported by the fact that by the Hellenistic period her precinct in Lagina was the largest of all the precincts there (in constrast, in all of Greece, only Aegina seems to have had any significant sanctuary devoted wholly to Hecate).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    Caria being in southwestern Anatolia.&#xD;&#xA;Similarly (from the list I mentioned earlier), [Pasiphae](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Pasiphae.html) seems to have been the cretan moon-goddess and [Bendis](http://www.theoi.com/Thrakios/Bendis.html) the one from Thrace.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    The specific reason why Hecate was associated with the moon seems a bit complex. Originally, in Caria, Hecate seems to have been a fairly generic mother Goddess. Even in Hesiod's *Theogony* she is presented as having dominion over basically everything. According to Sarah Johnston in *[Hekate Soteira: A Study of Hekate's Role in the Chaldean Oracles and Related Literature](https://books.google.de/books?ei=9FlUVd7JLce5UbrxgcgH&amp;id=pyp-AAAAMAAJ)* (which I haven't been able to find and thus read so I might be misrepresenting her idea here), the association came relatively late (1st Century AD) from the fact that at some point Hecate was seen as a &quot;*liminal*&quot; goddess, an intermediary between two worlds (hence also probably the association between Hecate and witchcraft), which is a quality that was supposedly shared by the Moon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;___&#xD;&#xA;So to summarize, the difference between Selene and Artemis is that one *is*  the moon while the other is just associated with it, and on top of that one is a Titan while the other is an Olympian; Phoebe has nothing to do with the moon; and the others are foreign/regional goddesses integrated *a posteriori*  into the Greek Pantheon." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3443" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="674" RevisionGUID="aaadbd2b-c2cc-4f3f-aac5-6072688d16cd" CreationDate="2015-05-14T08:47:23.417" UserId="111" Comment="deleted 4 characters in body" Text="Actually the list of moon-goddesses goes on since, according to Selene's [Theoi](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Selene.html) page:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Other Greek moon goddesses included Pasiphae, the Leukippides, Eileithyia, Hekate, Artemis, Bendis, and Hera (who sometimes doubled for Selene in the Endymion myth).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But let's focus first on the one you mentioned:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Artemis](http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Artemis.html). Her association with the moon seems relatively straight-forward: if Apollo is associated with the Sun, then his sister has to be associated with the moon.&#xD;&#xA; - [Selene](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Selene.html) (= Mene or Luna). She is the proper Titan-goddess of the Moon, often even the personnification of the moon itself. See among many other sources, Apollonius Rhodius's *Argonautica*:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Rising from the distant east, the Lady Selene (Moon), Titanian goddess...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Phoibe/Phoebe](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanisPhoibe.html). The Titan Phoibe doesn't actually seem to be associated with the moon, the confusion comes from Selene being often nicknamed Phoebe (i. e. *'bright'*). Phoibe was apparently a prophetess Titan-goddess and as such is supposed to have held the Oracle of Delphi at some point. From the first line of Aeschylus's [*Eumenides*](http://classics.mit.edu/Aeschylus/eumendides.html):&#xD;&#xA;&gt;THE PYTHIAN PRIESTESS  &#xD;&#xA;First, in this prayer, of all the gods I name   &#xD;&#xA;The prophet-mother Earth; and Themis next,   &#xD;&#xA;Second who sat-for so with truth is said-   &#xD;&#xA;On this her mother's shrine oracular.   &#xD;&#xA;Then by her grace, who unconstrained allowed,   &#xD;&#xA;There sat thereon another child of Earth-   &#xD;&#xA;Titanian Phoebe.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA; - [Hecate](http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Hekate.html). Now Hecate is something else I think. The different sources we have tend to contradict each other on her parentage, descendance, attributions etc. leading some scholars to think that Hecate was in fact a goddess foreign to the Greek Pantheon that was only added later (and well integrated thanks to the place Hesiod gave her in the *Theogony*). See for instance what Sarah Johnston says about it in [*Restless Deads*](https://books.google.de/books?id=qbihKIJw_OUC&amp;lpg=PP1&amp;pg=PA205#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Let us go back further, to Hecate's place of origin. There is general agreement that this was Caria, in southwestern Asia Minor, which is supported by the fact that by the Hellenistic period her precinct in Lagina was the largest of all the precincts there (in constrast, in all of Greece, only Aegina seems to have had any significant sanctuary devoted wholly to Hecate).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    Caria being in southwestern Anatolia.&#xD;&#xA;Similarly (from the list I mentioned earlier), [Pasiphae](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Pasiphae.html) seems to have been the cretan moon-goddess and [Bendis](http://www.theoi.com/Thrakios/Bendis.html) the one from Thrace.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    The specific reason why Hecate was associated with the moon seems a bit complex. Originally, in Caria, Hecate seems to have been a fairly generic mother Goddess. Even in Hesiod's *Theogony* she is presented as having dominion over basically everything. According to Sarah Johnston in *[Hekate Soteira: A Study of Hekate's Role in the Chaldean Oracles and Related Literature](https://books.google.de/books?ei=9FlUVd7JLce5UbrxgcgH&amp;id=pyp-AAAAMAAJ)* (which I haven't been able to find and thus read so I might be misrepresenting her idea here), the association came relatively late (1st Century AD) from the fact that at some point Hecate was seen as a &quot;*liminal*&quot; goddess, an intermediary between two worlds (hence also probably the association between Hecate and witchcraft), which is a quality that was supposedly shared by the Moon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;___&#xD;&#xA;So to summarize, the difference between Selene and Artemis is that one *is*  the moon while the other is just associated with it, and on top of that one is a Titan while the other is an Olympian; Phoebe has nothing to do with the moon; and the others are foreign/regional goddesses integrated *a posteriori*  into the Greek Pantheon." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3444" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="674" RevisionGUID="4f0564aa-6c2f-4968-8df1-e5132f16d021" CreationDate="2015-05-14T08:53:28.703" UserId="111" Comment="added 474 characters in body" Text="Actually the list of moon-goddesses goes on since, according to Selene's [Theoi](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Selene.html) page:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Other Greek moon goddesses included Pasiphae, the Leukippides, Eileithyia, Hekate, Artemis, Bendis, and Hera (who sometimes doubled for Selene in the Endymion myth).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But let's focus first on the one you mentioned:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Artemis](http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Artemis.html). Her association with the moon seems relatively straight-forward: if Apollo is associated with the Sun, then his sister has to be associated with the moon.&#xD;&#xA; - [Selene](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Selene.html) (= Mene or Luna). She is the proper Titan-goddess of the Moon, often even the personnification of the moon itself. See among many other sources, Apollonius Rhodius's *Argonautica*:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Rising from the distant east, the Lady Selene (Moon), Titanian goddess...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Phoibe/Phoebe](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanisPhoibe.html). The Titan Phoibe doesn't actually seem to be associated with the moon, the confusion comes from Selene being often nicknamed Phoebe (i. e. *'bright'*). Phoibe was apparently a prophetess Titan-goddess and as such is supposed to have held the Oracle of Delphi at some point. From the first line of Aeschylus's [*Eumenides*](http://classics.mit.edu/Aeschylus/eumendides.html):&#xD;&#xA;&gt;THE PYTHIAN PRIESTESS  &#xD;&#xA;First, in this prayer, of all the gods I name   &#xD;&#xA;The prophet-mother Earth; and Themis next,   &#xD;&#xA;Second who sat-for so with truth is said-   &#xD;&#xA;On this her mother's shrine oracular.   &#xD;&#xA;Then by her grace, who unconstrained allowed,   &#xD;&#xA;There sat thereon another child of Earth-   &#xD;&#xA;Titanian Phoebe.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA; - [Hecate](http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Hekate.html). Now Hecate is something else I think. The different sources we have tend to contradict each other on her parentage, descendance, attributions etc. leading some scholars to think that Hecate was in fact a goddess foreign to the Greek Pantheon that was only added later (and well integrated thanks to the place Hesiod gave her in the *Theogony*). See for instance what Sarah Johnston says about it in [*Restless Deads*](https://books.google.de/books?id=qbihKIJw_OUC&amp;lpg=PP1&amp;pg=PA205#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Let us go back further, to Hecate's place of origin. There is general agreement that this was Caria, in southwestern Asia Minor, which is supported by the fact that by the Hellenistic period her precinct in Lagina was the largest of all the precincts there (in constrast, in all of Greece, only Aegina seems to have had any significant sanctuary devoted wholly to Hecate).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    Caria being in southwestern Anatolia.&#xD;&#xA;Similarly (from the list I mentioned earlier), [Pasiphae](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Pasiphae.html) seems to have been the cretan moon-goddess and [Bendis](http://www.theoi.com/Thrakios/Bendis.html) the one from Thrace.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    The specific reason why Hecate was associated with the moon seems a bit complex. Originally, in Caria, Hecate seems to have been a fairly generic mother Goddess. Even in Hesiod's *Theogony* she is presented as having dominion over basically everything:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;For to this day, whenever any one of men on earth offers rich sacrifices and prays for favour according to custom, he calls upon Hecate. [...] For as many as were born of Earth and Ocean amongst all these she has her due portion. The son of Cronos did her no wrong nor took anything away of all that was her portion among the former Titan gods: but she holds, as the division was at the first from the beginning, privilege both in earth, and in heaven, and in sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    According to Sarah Johnston in *[Hekate Soteira: A Study of Hekate's Role in the Chaldean Oracles and Related Literature](https://books.google.de/books?ei=9FlUVd7JLce5UbrxgcgH&amp;id=pyp-AAAAMAAJ)* (which I haven't been able to find and thus read so I might be misrepresenting her idea here), the association came relatively late (1st Century AD) from the fact that at some point Hecate was seen as a &quot;*liminal*&quot; goddess, an intermediary between two worlds (hence also probably the association between Hecate and witchcraft), which is a quality that was supposedly shared by the Moon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;___&#xD;&#xA;So to summarize, the difference between Selene and Artemis is that one *is*  the moon while the other is just associated with it, and on top of that one is a Titan while the other is an Olympian; Phoebe has nothing to do with the moon; and the others are foreign/regional goddesses integrated *a posteriori*  into the Greek Pantheon." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3457" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="687" RevisionGUID="07160640-5124-469d-81e0-2be798c6ca2c" CreationDate="2015-05-14T12:00:15.673" UserId="229" Text="It was fairly typical for Indo-European gods to have associated weapons or tools. For example, Thor's hammer and [Lugh's spear][1]. Vishnu, having 4 arms, can dual-wield a club and a [oddjob-esque death Frisbee][2]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, Semitic people did their deities a bit differently. They tended to have non-human aspects, in some cases being entirely based on animals. Egypt particularly tended towards the latter. There are humanoid depictions of their main gods holding flails, but those are generally considered agricultural (herding) symbols rather than war weapons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugh#Lugh.27s_Spear&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudarshana_Chakra" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3458" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="287" RevisionGUID="c1af3bc6-8a29-4165-812e-2a982d6e0908" CreationDate="2015-05-14T14:49:18.033" UserId="79" Comment="2" />
  <row Id="3460" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="688" RevisionGUID="b32c238d-d836-4275-93ab-16947500eb0d" CreationDate="2015-05-14T16:07:33.987" UserId="42" Text="The only particular weapon given more than passing mention that I can find is Isis's harpoon in [The Contendings of Horus and Seth](http://www.touregypt.net/contendingshorusseth.htm), which she makes herself from some yarn and copper:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then she fetched a skein of yarn. She fashioned a line, fetched a deben-weight's (worth) of copper, cast it in (the form of) a harpoon, tied the line to it, and hurled it into the water at the spot where Horus and Seth had submerged. / But then the copper (barb) bit into the person of her son Horus. So Horus let out a loud shriek, saying: Help me, mother Isis, my mother. Appeal to your copper (barb) to let go of me. I am Horus, son of Isis. thereupon Isis let out a loud shriek and told &lt;her&gt; copper (barb): Let go of him. See, it is my son Horus. He is my child. So her copper (barb) let go of him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The same story contains other references to weapons used by the gods, but they don't seem to have any special properties, or supernatural qualities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - &#xD;&#xA;    &gt; ...having his cleaver of 16 deben-weight in his hand.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    (16 deben-weight would be about 1.5 kg, I believe, which [according to wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_axe) is a pretty typical weight for an axe designed for warfare)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - &#xD;&#xA;    &gt; ...seized the copper (knife), cut off his hand(s)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - &#xD;&#xA;    &gt; Horus took his copper (harpoon) and hurled it at the person of Seth." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3461" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="688" RevisionGUID="3410e47a-702a-44ff-bee2-6fcaddff5a8c" CreationDate="2015-05-14T16:25:35.300" UserId="42" Comment="added 39 characters in body" Text="The only particular weapon given more than passing mention that I can find is Isis's harpoon in [The Contendings of Horus and Seth](http://www.touregypt.net/contendingshorusseth.htm) (part of the Papyrus Chester Beatty I), which she makes herself from some yarn and copper:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then she fetched a skein of yarn. She fashioned a line, fetched a deben-weight's (worth) of copper, cast it in (the form of) a harpoon, tied the line to it, and hurled it into the water at the spot where Horus and Seth had submerged. / But then the copper (barb) bit into the person of her son Horus. So Horus let out a loud shriek, saying: Help me, mother Isis, my mother. Appeal to your copper (barb) to let go of me. I am Horus, son of Isis. thereupon Isis let out a loud shriek and told &lt;her&gt; copper (barb): Let go of him. See, it is my son Horus. He is my child. So her copper (barb) let go of him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The same story contains other references to weapons used by the gods, but they don't seem to have any special properties, or supernatural qualities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - &#xD;&#xA;    &gt; ...having his cleaver of 16 deben-weight in his hand.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    (16 deben-weight would be about 1.5 kg, I believe, which [according to wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_axe) is a pretty typical weight for an axe designed for warfare)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - &#xD;&#xA;    &gt; ...seized the copper (knife), cut off his hand(s)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - &#xD;&#xA;    &gt; Horus took his copper (harpoon) and hurled it at the person of Seth." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3462" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="689" RevisionGUID="e7d4f4e1-17b1-4d05-83b8-02938d83afee" CreationDate="2015-05-14T17:55:33.143" UserId="183" Text="In *[Culhwch and Olwen](http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/culhwch.html)*, King Kilydd's wife, Goleuddydd, dies in childbirth, leaving behind the king's only son. She tells him to go forth and remarry once two briar blossoms bloom on her grave, and he does so when the blossoms appear seven years later.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He finds a maiden (Olwen) to marry, kills her husband (another king), and plans to marry her. Then something curious happens (dramatic emphasis mine).&#xD;&#xA;&gt; On a certain day, as the lady walked abroad, she came to the house of an old crone that dwelt in the town, and that had no tooth in her head. And the queen said to her, &quot;Old woman, tell me that which I shall ask thee, for the love of Heaven. Where are the children of the man who has carried me away by violence?&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Said the crone, &quot;He has not children.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Said the queen, &quot;Woe is me, that I should have come to one who is childless!&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then said the hag, &quot;Thou needest not lament on account of that, for there is a prediction that he shall have an heir by thee, and by none other. Moreover, be not sorrowful, for he has one son.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The lady returned home with joy; and she asked her consort, **&quot;Wherefore hast thou concealed thy children from me?&quot;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The king said, &quot;I will do so no longer.&quot; And he sent messengers for his son, and he was brought to the Court.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm somewhat confused by the fact that the crone at first says that Kilydd has no children, then tells Olwen the truth. Even more puzzling, though, is that the king concealed his son.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question is the same as Lady Olwen's: Why did Kilydd hide his son from her?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3463" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="689" RevisionGUID="e7d4f4e1-17b1-4d05-83b8-02938d83afee" CreationDate="2015-05-14T17:55:33.143" UserId="183" Text="Why did King Kilydd conceal his son from Olwen?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3464" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="689" RevisionGUID="e7d4f4e1-17b1-4d05-83b8-02938d83afee" CreationDate="2015-05-14T17:55:33.143" UserId="183" Text="|welsh|mabinogion|the-native-tales|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3465" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="684" RevisionGUID="98c4921b-5267-4d3e-bda2-8ddf0792edd5" CreationDate="2015-05-14T19:14:19.853" UserId="14" Comment="added 14 characters in body" Text="**No, Kalki only comes in this Kali Yuga, not every Kali Yuga.**  Let me first explain a bit about Hindu timescales.  The four Yugas known as Satya, Treta, Dwapara, and Kali together make up one Mahayuga, and a thousand Mahayugas make up one Kalpa or day of Brahma.  But in addition to being divided into 1000 Mahayugas, a Kalpa is also divided into fourteen Manvantaras, each of which is made up of about 71 Mahayugas.  We're currently living in the seventh Manvantara of the present Kalpa, known as the Vaivasvata Manavantara, and we're living in the 28th Kali Yuga of the Vaivasvata Manvantara.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now that we have some background, in [this chapter][1] of the Matsya Purana (an important Hindu scripture), various incarnations of Vishnu in the present Vaivasvata Manvantara are described.  But Kalki is only mentioned once, and that is in the current Kali Yuga.  [This excerpt][2] from the Skanda Purana says the same thing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And we can find explicit references to how Kali Yugas have ended in the past.  In particular, [this chapter][3] of the famous Hindu epic the Mahabharata describes how Vishnu's incarnation Parashurama brought about the 20th Satya Yuga of the Vaivasvata Manvantara by killing the kings of the world:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Even the great ascetic Rama, the hero worshipped by all heroes, that son of Jamadagni, of great fame, will die, without being contented (with the period of his life). **Rooting out all evils from the earth, he caused the primeval Yuga to set in.** Having obtained unrivalled prosperity, no fault could be seen in him. His father having been slain and his calf having been stolen by the Kshatriyas, he without any boast, slew Kartavirya who had never been vanquished before by foes. With his bow he slew four and sixty times ten thousand Kshatriyas already within the jaws of death. In that slaughter were included fourteen thousand Brahmana-hating Kshatriyas of the Dantakura country, all of whom he slew. Of the Haihayas, he slew a thousand with his short club, a thousand with his sword, and a thousand by hanging. Heroic warriors, with their cars, steeds, and elephants, lay dead on the field, slain by the wise son of Jamadagni, enraged at the slaughter of his father. And Rama, on that occasion, slew ten thousand Kshatriyas with his axe. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact, as far as I know there was only one other occasion where Vishnu took a Kalki incarnation.  The Kalki incarnation was named Pramati, and he seems to have lived in the Swayambhuva Manvantara, the first Manvantara of the present Kalpa.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By the way, if you're interested in those lists of Vaivasvata Manvantara incarnations found in the Matsya and Skanda Puranas, I've posted a few questions about them on Hinduism.SE, [here][4], [here][5], and [here][6].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=nckrAAAAMAAJ&amp;dq=%2224th%20treta%22&amp;pg=PA138#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.indianscriptures.com/Content/Articles/PDFs/27478/62f_chapter_19_2.pdf#toolbar=0&amp;pagemode=none&amp;view=FitBH&amp;page=1%22&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://Even%20the%20great%20ascetic%20Rama,%20the%20hero%20worshipped%20by%20all%20heroes,%20that%20son%20of%20Jamadagni,%20of%20great%20fame,%20will%20die,%20without%20being&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://hinduism.stackexchange.com/q/7192/36&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://hinduism.stackexchange.com/q/7194/36&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://hinduism.stackexchange.com/q/7221/36" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3466" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="690" RevisionGUID="0198a1fd-52f6-4f5b-8289-eb32bfc6249e" CreationDate="2015-05-14T19:38:33.390" UserId="197" Text="The myths of ancient Rome recount of Horatius Cocles, a brave Roman soldier officer who has defended the Roman republic from an etruscian attack.  He stood alone on the sole bridge above the Tiber river separating the attackers from the city of Rome, while his companions demolished the bridge.  The etruscians were so afraid of his stance that they dared not to approach him, and instead only threw their spears from afar, none of which would hit him.  When the bridge was finally demolished behind her, and he was on the side farther from the city, he has jumped into the river. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Horatius Cocles has performed this heroic deed, was he on foot, or was he on a horse?  Modern illustrations seem to vary in this important detail." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3467" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="690" RevisionGUID="0198a1fd-52f6-4f5b-8289-eb32bfc6249e" CreationDate="2015-05-14T19:38:33.390" UserId="197" Text="Was Horatius Cocles a footman or mounted?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3468" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="690" RevisionGUID="0198a1fd-52f6-4f5b-8289-eb32bfc6249e" CreationDate="2015-05-14T19:38:33.390" UserId="197" Text="|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3469" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="691" RevisionGUID="75b795ce-e1b6-4d5c-a60c-21944116f844" CreationDate="2015-05-14T20:09:58.470" UserId="57" Text="Livy, Plutarch and Dionysius of Halicarnassus seem to agree that Horatius Cocles was on foot, when he defended the bridge. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;###Livy&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He therefore warned and commanded them to break down the bridge with steel, with fire, with any instrument at their disposal; and promised that he would himself receive the onset of the enemy, so far as it could be withstood by a single body. Then, striding to the head of the bridge, conspicuous amongst the fugitives who were clearly seen to be shirking the fight, he covered himself with his sword and buckler and made ready to do battle at close quarters, confounding the Etruscans with amazement at his audacity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Yet were there two who were prevented by shame from leaving him. These were Spurius Larcius and Titus Herminius, both famous for their birth and their deeds. With these he endured the peril of the first rush and the stormiest moment of the battle. But after a while he forced even these two to leave him and save themselves, for there was scarcely anything left of the bridge, and those who were cutting it down called to them to come back. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Titus Livius (Livy), The History of Rome, Book 2, Benjamin Oliver Foster, Ph.D., Ed.](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:latinLit:phi0914.phi0012.perseus-eng1:10)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### Plutarch&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Horatius Cocles, however, first, and with him two of the most illustrious men of the city, Herminius and Lartius, defended the wooden bridge against them. Horatius had been given his surname of Cocles because he had lost one of his eyes in the wars. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Some, however, say that his nose was flat and sunken, so that there was nothing to separate his eyes, and his eye-brows ran together, and that for this reason the multitude wished to call him Cyclops, but by a slip of the tongue the name of Cocles became generally prevalent instead. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This Cocles, standing at the head of the bridge, kept the enemy back until his companions had cut the bridge in two behind him. Then, all accoutred as he was, he plunged into the river and swam across to the other side, in spite of a wound in the buttocks from a Tuscan spear. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Publicola, out of admiration for his valour, proposed that every Roman should at once contribute for him as much provision as each consumed in a day, and that afterwards he should be given as much land as he could plough round in a day. Besides this, they set up a bronze statue of him in the temple of Vulcan, to console him with honour for the lameness consequent upon his wound.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Life of Publicola, The Parallel Lives by Plutarch, published in Vol. I of the Loeb Classical Library edition, 1914](http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Lives/Publicola*.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### Dionysius of Halicarnassus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While they were all fleeing to the city and endeavouring to force their way in a body over a single bridge, the enemy made a strong attack upon them; and the city came very near being taken by storm, and would surely have fallen if the pursuers had entered it at the same time with those who fled. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Those who checked the enemy's attack and saved the whole army were three in number, two of them older men, Spurius Larcius and Titus Herminius, who commanded the right wing, and one a younger man, Publius Horatius, who was called Cocles from an injury to his sight, and one of his eyes having been struck out in a battle, and was the fairest of men in philosophical appearance and the bravest in spirit. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This man was nephew to Marcus Horatius, one of the consuls, and traced his descent from Marcus Horatius, one of the triplets who conquered the Alban triplets when the two cities, having become involved in war over the leadership, agreed not to risk a decision with all their forces, but with three men on each side, as I have related in one of the earlier books.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These three men, then, all alone, with their backs to the bridge, barred the passage of the enemy for a considerable time and stood their ground, though pelted by many foes with all sorts of missiles and struck with swords in hand-to-hand conflict, till the whole army had crossed the river.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When they judged their own men to be safe, two of them, Herminius and Larcius, their defensive arms being now rendered useless by the continual blows they had received, began to retreat gradually. But Horatius alone, though not only the consuls but the rest of the citizens as well, solicitous above all things that such a man should be saved to his country and his parents, called to him from the city to retire, could not be prevailed upon, but remained where he had first taken his stand, and directed Herminius and Larcius to tell the consuls, as from him, to cut away the bridge in all haste at the end next the city (there was but one bridge in those days, which was built of wood and fastened together with the timbers alone, without iron, which the Romans preserve even to my day in the same condition), and to bid them, when the greater part of the bridge had been broken down and little of it remained, to give him notice of it by some signals or by shouting in a louder voice than usual; the rest, he said, would be his concern. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Having given these instructions to the two men, he stood upon the bridge itself, and when the enemy advanced upon him, he struck some of them with his sword and beat down others with his shield, repulsing all who attempted to rush upon the bridge. For the pursuers, looking upon him as a madman who was courting death, dared no longer come to grips with him. At the same time it was not easy for them even to come near him, since he had the river as a defence on the right and left, and in front of him a heap of arms and dead bodies. But standing massed at a distance, they hurled spears, javelins, and large stones at him, and those who were not supplied with these threw the swords and bucklers of the slain. But he fought on, making use of their own weapons against them, and hurling these into the crowd, he was bound, as may well be supposed, to find some mark every time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Finally, when he was overwhelmed with missiles and had a great number of wounds in many parts of his body, and one in particular inflicted by a spear which, passing straight through one of his buttocks above the hip-joint, weakened him with the pain and impeded his steps, he heard those behind him shouting out that the greater part of the bridge was broken down. Thereupon he leaped with his arms into the river and swimming across the stream with great difficulty (for the current, being divided by the piles, ran swift and formed large eddies), he emerged upon the shore without having lost any of his arms in swimming.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Roman Antiquities of Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Book 4, published in Vol. III  of the Loeb Classical Library edition, 1940](http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Dionysius_of_Halicarnassus/5B*.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3470" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="690" RevisionGUID="f8ed95a3-5fc2-426c-ba30-15f15d1ab6a2" CreationDate="2015-05-14T20:10:22.777" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body" Text="The myths of ancient Rome recount of Horatius Cocles, a brave Roman soldier officer who has defended the Roman republic from an Etruscan attack.  He stood alone on the sole bridge above the Tiber river separating the attackers from the city of Rome, while his companions demolished the bridge.  The Etruscan were so afraid of his stance that they dared not to approach him, and instead only threw their spears from afar, none of which would hit him.  When the bridge was finally demolished behind her, and he was on the side farther from the city, he has jumped into the river. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Horatius Cocles has performed this heroic deed, was he on foot, or was he on a horse?  Modern illustrations seem to vary in this important detail." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3471" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="691" RevisionGUID="56474b6d-64df-486f-a59a-7a1435c170d3" CreationDate="2015-05-14T20:16:09.423" UserId="57" Comment="added 1333 characters in body" Text="Livy, Plutarch, Dionysius of Halicarnassus and Polybius seem to agree that Horatius Cocles was on foot, when he defended the bridge. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;###Livy&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He therefore warned and commanded them to break down the bridge with steel, with fire, with any instrument at their disposal; and promised that he would himself receive the onset of the enemy, so far as it could be withstood by a single body. Then, striding to the head of the bridge, conspicuous amongst the fugitives who were clearly seen to be shirking the fight, he covered himself with his sword and buckler and made ready to do battle at close quarters, confounding the Etruscans with amazement at his audacity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Yet were there two who were prevented by shame from leaving him. These were Spurius Larcius and Titus Herminius, both famous for their birth and their deeds. With these he endured the peril of the first rush and the stormiest moment of the battle. But after a while he forced even these two to leave him and save themselves, for there was scarcely anything left of the bridge, and those who were cutting it down called to them to come back. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Titus Livius (Livy), The History of Rome, Book 2, Benjamin Oliver Foster, Ph.D., Ed.](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:latinLit:phi0914.phi0012.perseus-eng1:10)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### Plutarch&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Horatius Cocles, however, first, and with him two of the most illustrious men of the city, Herminius and Lartius, defended the wooden bridge against them. Horatius had been given his surname of Cocles because he had lost one of his eyes in the wars. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Some, however, say that his nose was flat and sunken, so that there was nothing to separate his eyes, and his eye-brows ran together, and that for this reason the multitude wished to call him Cyclops, but by a slip of the tongue the name of Cocles became generally prevalent instead. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This Cocles, standing at the head of the bridge, kept the enemy back until his companions had cut the bridge in two behind him. Then, all accoutred as he was, he plunged into the river and swam across to the other side, in spite of a wound in the buttocks from a Tuscan spear. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Publicola, out of admiration for his valour, proposed that every Roman should at once contribute for him as much provision as each consumed in a day, and that afterwards he should be given as much land as he could plough round in a day. Besides this, they set up a bronze statue of him in the temple of Vulcan, to console him with honour for the lameness consequent upon his wound.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Life of Publicola, The Parallel Lives by Plutarch, published in Vol. I of the Loeb Classical Library edition, 1914](http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Lives/Publicola*.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### Dionysius of Halicarnassus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While they were all fleeing to the city and endeavouring to force their way in a body over a single bridge, the enemy made a strong attack upon them; and the city came very near being taken by storm, and would surely have fallen if the pursuers had entered it at the same time with those who fled. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Those who checked the enemy's attack and saved the whole army were three in number, two of them older men, Spurius Larcius and Titus Herminius, who commanded the right wing, and one a younger man, Publius Horatius, who was called Cocles from an injury to his sight, and one of his eyes having been struck out in a battle, and was the fairest of men in philosophical appearance and the bravest in spirit. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This man was nephew to Marcus Horatius, one of the consuls, and traced his descent from Marcus Horatius, one of the triplets who conquered the Alban triplets when the two cities, having become involved in war over the leadership, agreed not to risk a decision with all their forces, but with three men on each side, as I have related in one of the earlier books.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These three men, then, all alone, with their backs to the bridge, barred the passage of the enemy for a considerable time and stood their ground, though pelted by many foes with all sorts of missiles and struck with swords in hand-to-hand conflict, till the whole army had crossed the river.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When they judged their own men to be safe, two of them, Herminius and Larcius, their defensive arms being now rendered useless by the continual blows they had received, began to retreat gradually. But Horatius alone, though not only the consuls but the rest of the citizens as well, solicitous above all things that such a man should be saved to his country and his parents, called to him from the city to retire, could not be prevailed upon, but remained where he had first taken his stand, and directed Herminius and Larcius to tell the consuls, as from him, to cut away the bridge in all haste at the end next the city (there was but one bridge in those days, which was built of wood and fastened together with the timbers alone, without iron, which the Romans preserve even to my day in the same condition), and to bid them, when the greater part of the bridge had been broken down and little of it remained, to give him notice of it by some signals or by shouting in a louder voice than usual; the rest, he said, would be his concern. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Having given these instructions to the two men, he stood upon the bridge itself, and when the enemy advanced upon him, he struck some of them with his sword and beat down others with his shield, repulsing all who attempted to rush upon the bridge. For the pursuers, looking upon him as a madman who was courting death, dared no longer come to grips with him. At the same time it was not easy for them even to come near him, since he had the river as a defence on the right and left, and in front of him a heap of arms and dead bodies. But standing massed at a distance, they hurled spears, javelins, and large stones at him, and those who were not supplied with these threw the swords and bucklers of the slain. But he fought on, making use of their own weapons against them, and hurling these into the crowd, he was bound, as may well be supposed, to find some mark every time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Finally, when he was overwhelmed with missiles and had a great number of wounds in many parts of his body, and one in particular inflicted by a spear which, passing straight through one of his buttocks above the hip-joint, weakened him with the pain and impeded his steps, he heard those behind him shouting out that the greater part of the bridge was broken down. Thereupon he leaped with his arms into the river and swimming across the stream with great difficulty (for the current, being divided by the piles, ran swift and formed large eddies), he emerged upon the shore without having lost any of his arms in swimming.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Roman Antiquities of Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Book 4, published in Vol. III  of the Loeb Classical Library edition, 1940](http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Dionysius_of_Halicarnassus/5B*.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;###Polybius&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  It is narrated that when Horatius Cocles was engaged in combat with two of the enemy at the far end of the bridge over the Tiber that lies in the front of the town, he saw large reinforcements coming up to help the enemy, and fearing lest they should force the passage and get into town, he turned round and called to those behind him to retire and cut the bridge with all speed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; His order was obeyed, and while they were cutting the bridge, he stood to his ground receiving many wounds, and arrested the attack of the enemy who were less astonished at his physical strength than at his endurance and courage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The bridge once cut, the enemy were prevented from attacking; and Cocles, plunging into the river in full armour as he was, deliberately sacrificed his life,2 regarding the safety of his country and the glory which in future would attach to his name as of more importance than his present existence and the years of life which remained to him. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Such, if I am not wrong, is the eager emulation of achieving noble deeds engendered in the Roman youth by their institutions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Histories of Polybius, Book 6, published in Vol. III of the Loeb Classical Library edition, 1922 thru 1927](http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Polybius/6*.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3475" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="685" RevisionGUID="0f4842ab-7c0b-4e1d-abf5-60a5d96752fd" CreationDate="2015-05-14T22:26:38.170" UserId="183" Comment="added 232 characters in body" Text="*[The Dream of Macsen Wledig](http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/macsen.html)* is a Welsh tale that may be loosely based on Emperor [Magnus Maximus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_Maximus), of Rome. The story tracks his search for a fair maiden he sees in a dream, eventually bringing him to Britain, where he finds the lady he seeks. Learning that he has been replaced as emperor, he rushes back to Rome with his newly-wedded wife.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does this story appear in Roman folklore? It somewhat corresponds to historical events involving Magnus Maximus, but other parts seem to be embellished. Also, Welsh folklore typically involves Welsh heroes and nobles; it seems rather odd to have a legend told from a Roman perspective. There were Romans in the south of Britain at the time (including Magnus Maximus, of course), and I suspect that they could have influenced the story, but I'm not sure. That would have been hundreds of years before the Welsh tales were collected in their medieval form, but they could have been different originally." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3476" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="693" RevisionGUID="16fcc047-4b11-4422-9d47-919d3a9439a6" CreationDate="2015-05-14T22:35:52.367" UserId="42" Text="This is closely related to a previous question:  http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/682/why-couldnt-cuchulainn-yield-to-ferdiad-or-vice-versa&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems clear from the [answer there](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/683/42) that Cuchulainn would be bound to fight to defend the men of Ulster, regardless of any affection for his opponent.  Clearly, that includes his foster-brother Ferdiad, who he eventually kills in a grueling single combat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, when Fergus Mac Roich is selected to meet Cuchulainn in single combat, they come to an arrangement, and Cuchulainn agrees to yield to him on that day, and in exchange Fergus will yield to him later.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems from the exchange with Ferdiad, though, that an arangement like this in order to avoid fighting someone he loves is not adequate to satisfy Cuchulainn's honor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So why does he yield?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3477" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="693" RevisionGUID="16fcc047-4b11-4422-9d47-919d3a9439a6" CreationDate="2015-05-14T22:35:52.367" UserId="42" Text="How could Cuchulainn yeild to Fergus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3478" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="693" RevisionGUID="16fcc047-4b11-4422-9d47-919d3a9439a6" CreationDate="2015-05-14T22:35:52.367" UserId="42" Text="|irish|ulster-cycle|tain-bo-cuailnge|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3479" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="694" RevisionGUID="56546fa1-0912-43c9-883b-578642547ce4" CreationDate="2015-05-14T22:35:52.367" UserId="42" Text="Fergus didn't offer only to retreat in battle himself.  He promised to retreat *with the men of Erin in tow*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From [19. The Battle Of Fergus And Cuchulain](http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/Fergus.html) (emphasis mine)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;...give way before me this day in the presence of the men of Erin!&quot; &quot;Truly I am loath to do that,&quot; answered Cuchulain, &quot;to flee before any one man on the Cattle-spoil of Cualnge.&quot; &quot;Nay then it is not a thing to be taken amiss by thee,&quot; said Fergus; &quot;for I in my turn will retreat before thee when thou wilt be covered with wounds and dripping with gore and pierced with holes in the battle of the Táin. **And when I alone shall turn in flight before thee, so will all the men of Erin also flee before thee in like manner.&quot;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **So zealous was Cuchulain to do whatever made for Ulster's weal** that he had his chariot brought to him, and he mounted his chariot and he went in confusion and flight from Fergus in the presence of the men of Erin. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So Fergus has not just offered Cuchulainn an out on a difficult situation, he's offered him a serious advantage on the battlefield, with which to defend Ulster.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cuchulainn makes clear with his initial rejection of the agreement that simply not wanting to kill (or be killed by) his foster-father is not enough to compel him to yield.  Only something gained &quot;for Ulster's weal&quot; will suffice.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ferdiad, on the other hand, had only just arrived (against his will) in Mebd and Ailill's camp.  He had no armies with which he could offer such an advantage to Cuchulainn.  Even if he had wished to make such an agreement, he would not have been able to offer much, apart from his own life, which was already being offered in single combat." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3480" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="682" RevisionGUID="9a3f88f2-99ed-4c1b-af2f-50a8cb70e6e4" CreationDate="2015-05-14T22:37:24.313" UserId="42" Comment="linking to new, related question" Text="Earlier in the Tain Bo Cuailnge, [Fergus Mac Roich and Cuchulainn meet for single combat](http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/Fergus.html).  At this time, Fergus makes an arrangement with Cuchulainn, that if Cuchulainn yeilds to him in their single combat, Fergus will yield when [they meet in battle of the Tain](http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/Muster.html).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why couldn't a similar arrangement have been reached when he was [forced to meet Ferdiad mac Damain](http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/Ferdiad.html), his foster-brother, in single combat as well?  They are both young and hot-headeed, but by the third day of their combat it seems clear that Ferdiad regrets the battle:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Culann's Hound, with floods of deeds,  &#xD;&#xA;Medb, not thou, hath us betrayed;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yet both combatants seem to find there is no choice but to continue the battle to the death.  So what makes the situation different from the earlier meeting with Fergus?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Related question:  http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/693/how-could-cuchulainn-yeild-to-fergus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3482" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="693" RevisionGUID="09b7954f-b1b3-4a1a-84d4-8d95c8b7df3c" CreationDate="2015-05-14T23:07:28.123" UserId="42" Comment="added 19 characters in body" Text="This is closely related to a previous question:  http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/682/why-couldnt-cuchulainn-yield-to-ferdiad-or-vice-versa&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems clear from the [answer there](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/683/42) that Cuchulainn would be bound to fight to defend the men of Ulster, regardless of any affection for his opponent.  Clearly, that includes his foster-brother Ferdiad, who he eventually kills in a grueling single combat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, when his foster-father, Fergus Mac Roich, is selected to meet Cuchulainn in single combat, they come to an arrangement, and Cuchulainn agrees to yield to him on that day, and in exchange Fergus will yield to him later.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems from the exchange with Ferdiad, though, that an arangement like this in order to avoid fighting someone he loves is not adequate to satisfy Cuchulainn's honor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So why does he yield?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3484" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="693" RevisionGUID="faecd00a-eb00-4933-82f7-eb8a564b2fe1" CreationDate="2015-05-15T00:36:25.163" UserId="183" Comment="Fixed typo." Text="This is closely related to a previous question:  http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/682/why-couldnt-cuchulainn-yield-to-ferdiad-or-vice-versa&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems clear from the [answer there](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/683/42) that Cuchulainn would be bound to fight to defend the men of Ulster, regardless of any affection for his opponent. Clearly, that includes his foster-brother Ferdiad, who he eventually kills in a grueling single combat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, when his foster-father, Fergus Mac Roich, is selected to meet Cuchulainn in single combat, they come to an arrangement, and Cuchulainn agrees to yield to him on that day, and in exchange Fergus will yield to him later.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems from the exchange with Ferdiad, though, that an arangement like this in order to avoid fighting someone he loves is not adequate to satisfy Cuchulainn's honor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So why does he yield?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3485" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="693" RevisionGUID="faecd00a-eb00-4933-82f7-eb8a564b2fe1" CreationDate="2015-05-15T00:36:25.163" UserId="183" Comment="Fixed typo." Text="How could Cuchulainn yield to Fergus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3488" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="696" RevisionGUID="31ebd9a8-942a-4f7e-a1ba-811727cd868b" CreationDate="2015-05-15T07:08:07.733" UserId="111" Text="In addition to the literary evidences from @Yannis answer, W. Fröhner in [*Les Médaillons de l'Empiron romain depuis le Règne d'Auguste jusqu'à Priscus Attale*](https://archive.org/stream/lesmdaillonsdel00froegoog#page/n83/mode/2up) (1878) reproduce a medaillon dating from the reign of Antoninus Pius (138-161) showing Horatius Cocles indeed without any horse:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Medaillon showing on one side Horatius Cocles drowning in the Tiber... without any horse][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/fsji8.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3489" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="696" RevisionGUID="30f0c30c-951d-4606-b635-d5a32b1496e1" CreationDate="2015-05-15T07:34:04.413" UserId="111" Comment="edited body" Text="In addition to the literary evidences from @Yannis answer, W. Fröhner in [*Les Médaillons de l'Empire romain depuis le Règne d'Auguste jusqu'à Priscus Attale*](https://archive.org/stream/lesmdaillonsdel00froegoog#page/n83/mode/2up) (1878) reproduced a medallion dating from the reign of Antoninus Pius (138-161) showing Horatius Cocles indeed without any horse:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Medaillon showing on one side Horatius Cocles drowning in the Tiber... without any horse][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/fsji8.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3490" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="697" RevisionGUID="80975052-9ef2-4b62-a96f-2ce3b7564bd4" CreationDate="2015-05-15T10:52:21.270" UserId="36" Text="Did an island actually sink in ancient Greece, due to a volcanic eruption or some other cataclysmic event perhaps? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was it completely wiped off the map by a tsunami?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did Plato base his story on fact or is it a work of fiction?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3491" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="697" RevisionGUID="80975052-9ef2-4b62-a96f-2ce3b7564bd4" CreationDate="2015-05-15T10:52:21.270" UserId="36" Text="What was Plato's inspiration for the Atlantis myth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3492" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="697" RevisionGUID="80975052-9ef2-4b62-a96f-2ce3b7564bd4" CreationDate="2015-05-15T10:52:21.270" UserId="36" Text="|greek|atlantis|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3493" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="698" RevisionGUID="29ada0fd-6d0e-4d72-90d9-20df714788ae" CreationDate="2015-05-15T11:20:45.577" UserId="57" Text="Any of the following catastrophes _may_ have been an inspiration for Atlantis: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Thera (partially) sunk as a result of the [Minoan eruption][1]. The eruption also produced a tsunami, that devastated Minoan Crete and reached as far as Egypt. &#xD;&#xA;- [Helike][2] was completely submerged by a tsunami in 373 BC.&#xD;&#xA;- [Pavlopetri][3], submerged sometime around 1200 BC. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The truth is, however, that we don't know. Since our only sources for the story are Timaeus and Critias, Atlantis could very well be a completely fictitious product.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_eruption&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helike&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavlopetri" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3494" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="698" RevisionGUID="1f0f9133-762f-470d-b9f9-c434ee7c3da1" CreationDate="2015-05-15T12:30:52.057" UserId="57" Comment="added 121 characters in body" Text="We don't know. The only sources for the story are Plato's dialogues Timaeus and Critias, for all we know the story of Atlantis is a completely fictitious product.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, any of the following historical catastrophes _may_ have been an inspiration for Atlantis: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Minoan eruption][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  Thera (partially) sunk as a result of the eruption, which also produced a tsunami that devastated Minoan Crete and reached as far as Egypt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Helike][2] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  The city was completely submerged by an earthquake or its subsequent tsunami in 373 BC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Pavlopetri][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  The city was completely submerged by an earthquake sometime around 1000 BC. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_eruption&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helike&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavlopetri" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3495" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="113" RevisionGUID="317ce843-a3cf-453b-a2cd-9bf02b141cb1" CreationDate="2015-05-15T15:25:16.823" UserId="42" Comment="Quoting the Þrymskviða, instead of just linking to it, and adding a line about the uncertainty in the word &quot;worthy&quot;." Text="As your quote shows, the story of it's creation makes no such specification.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If stealing it qualifies as &quot;using&quot; (I believe, in the the Marvel universe, [simply lifting][1] the hammer qualifies), [the Þrymskviða from the Poetic Edda](http://www.germanicmythology.com/PoeticEdda/THYBryant.html) tells the story of the giant Þrymr stealing Mjollnir, in order to extort the gods into giving him Freyja as his wife.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;I have Hloritha's  &#xD;&#xA;Hammer hidden:  &#xD;&#xA;Under eight miles  &#xD;&#xA;of earth it lies,   &#xD;&#xA;And such no one  &#xD;&#xA;shall see again  &#xD;&#xA;Save he first bring me  &#xD;&#xA;Freyja to wife!&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It does depend on your definition of &quot;worthy&quot;, but I think Þrymr's intentions disqualify him by most reasonable definitions.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Seems to indicate that the worthiness requirement is a Marvel invention.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/6Zxa8.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3496" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="699" RevisionGUID="5d7ab520-2350-4b05-a504-24a4194915f7" CreationDate="2015-05-15T16:45:53.560" UserId="42" Text="The modern term Sasquatch is a loan word ([first used by Indian Agent J.W. Burns](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigfoot#Before_1958)) based on the Halkomelem First Nations people's word sásq'ets.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the myths of the Halkomelem people, what was sásq'ets?  Were there identifiable stories told about it, or was it just a strange man-like hairy creature a friend of a friend caught a glimpse of in the woods, much like you hear about today?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3497" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="699" RevisionGUID="5d7ab520-2350-4b05-a504-24a4194915f7" CreationDate="2015-05-15T16:45:53.560" UserId="42" Text="What are the sásq'ets, from Halkomelem myths" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3498" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="699" RevisionGUID="5d7ab520-2350-4b05-a504-24a4194915f7" CreationDate="2015-05-15T16:45:53.560" UserId="42" Text="|native-american|first-nations|halkomelem|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3499" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="700" RevisionGUID="84e8912b-3178-4d35-bb5c-b490b6adb921" CreationDate="2015-05-15T17:03:48.073" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3500" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="701" RevisionGUID="042e1a35-6650-4380-8a99-52ffc7773e24" CreationDate="2015-05-15T17:03:48.073" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3501" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="699" RevisionGUID="2ae96fac-7f43-44fe-b966-e89238a6ac0d" CreationDate="2015-05-15T17:07:34.823" UserId="42" Comment="edited tags" Text="|first-nations|halkomelem|indigenous-american|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3502" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="702" RevisionGUID="3a595e32-82c6-4be3-ac9c-b37a6c1bfc54" CreationDate="2015-05-15T17:13:33.453" UserId="282" Text="In John Hale's &quot;Lords of the Sea: The Epic Story of the Athenian Navy and the Birth of Democracy&quot;, he argues that Atlantis was a thinly-veiled allegory for Athens itself and the collapse of their power after over-stretching themselves militarily. It's rather like &quot;Gulliver's Travels&quot; in that the political issues involved are obscured to us, but would have been glaringly obvious when it was written.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3503" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="703" RevisionGUID="782334ad-f550-4460-92f3-ed0e99aa85db" CreationDate="2015-05-15T17:22:30.323" UserId="283" Text="Possibly the events in Syracuse were part of Plato's inspiration, cf. Gunnar Rudberg: Atlantis and Syracuse. - Yet possibly Plato talked of Atlantis as a real place, as some academics point out. Academic approaches towardas Plato's Atlantis as a real place can be found here: [Atlantis-Scout][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.atlantis-scout.de/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3504" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="699" RevisionGUID="889994c7-dd3a-4a57-8d4d-06f38ac53d81" CreationDate="2015-05-15T17:29:59.067" UserId="42" Comment="I actually am not *quite* sure whether that's plural,  but I don't think it is." Text="What is sásq'ets, from Halkomelem myths" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3506" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="704" RevisionGUID="e5d24535-5784-4f22-8733-810093e6d58c" CreationDate="2015-05-15T18:01:37.910" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3507" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="705" RevisionGUID="750728ff-7cbc-439f-b0d2-9faa65d11e08" CreationDate="2015-05-15T18:01:37.910" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3508" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="706" RevisionGUID="3e01698f-8347-4b87-b68d-590bc3b020ec" CreationDate="2015-05-15T18:08:07.477" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3509" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="707" RevisionGUID="f9d5a497-ff00-492f-9eb2-a657703a319c" CreationDate="2015-05-15T18:08:07.477" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3510" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="699" RevisionGUID="954f2268-f72a-436a-b03c-f9aea339c250" CreationDate="2015-05-15T18:09:27.117" UserId="42" Comment="edited tags" Text="|native-american|first-nations|halkomelem|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3511" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="708" RevisionGUID="fcd0ebb6-2776-4b5b-bd69-d9ae15e27cf4" CreationDate="2015-05-15T18:34:21.567" UserId="31" Text="Plato [describes Atlantis][1] as&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Three rings of water with two rings of land surrounded the city center. The water rings were connected with canals and a 5-mile canal connected to the ocean. On the land rings were houses, various civic buildings, gardens, and other structures. The diameter of the entire city was only 2-miles. Surrounding the center city was a huge plain and a large mountainous area. Much of this land was of a rural nature with grazing animals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Santorini][2] would be a good match for this as it [did have the required structure][3] prior to c1645BC and it was also suject to a massive volcanic eruption probably somewhere between [1627BC and 1600BC][4] which significantly changed the shape of the island and would have destroyed any civilisation based there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Against this, Plato also said that Atlantis was &quot;outside the Pillars of Heracles&quot; (which are usually interpreted as being the Straits of Gibraltar) and that it was &quot;an island greater in extent than Libya and Asia&quot;. Such constraints would put it somewhere in the Atlantic Ocean, however there is [no sign of any large sunken island there][5].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.edgarcayce.org/_AncientMysteriesTemp/platocayce.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Santorini,+Greece/@36.4071539,25.4206309,12z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x1499ce86adfd9ff7:0xb2a761f740d68afc&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.decadevolcano.net/santorini/preminoan.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.volcanodiscovery.com/santorini/minoan_eruption/1613bc_olive-tree-date.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://unmuseum.mus.pa.us/atlantis.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3512" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="698" RevisionGUID="4869ac73-b5b9-4802-88f6-16628e55cec8" CreationDate="2015-05-15T19:47:33.117" UserId="57" Comment="added 52 characters in body" Text="We don't know. The only sources for the story are Plato's dialogues Timaeus and Critias, for all we know the story of Atlantis is a completely fictitious product.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, any of the following historical catastrophes _may_ have been an inspiration for Atlantis: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Minoan eruption][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  Thera (partially) sunk as a result of the eruption, which also produced a tsunami that devastated Minoan Crete and reached as far as Egypt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Helike][2] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  The city was completely submerged by an earthquake or its subsequent tsunami in 373 BC, about a decade before Plato wrote Timaeus and Critias.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Pavlopetri][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  The city was completely submerged by an earthquake sometime around 1000 BC. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_eruption&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helike&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavlopetri" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3513" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="700" RevisionGUID="2c62f68f-55b7-4e8f-8053-8994941fc0f6" CreationDate="2015-05-15T21:08:26.973" UserId="42" Comment="added 107 characters in body" Text="The First Nations are the aboriginal people of current-day Canada, excluding the Inuit and Métis peoples.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3514" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="700" RevisionGUID="2c62f68f-55b7-4e8f-8053-8994941fc0f6" CreationDate="2015-05-15T21:08:26.973" Comment="Proposed by 42 approved by 57, 29 edit id of 186" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3515" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="707" RevisionGUID="126bf0f8-e89e-4404-bde2-0a1cf56363fa" CreationDate="2015-05-15T21:08:30.493" UserId="42" Comment="added 116 characters in body" Text="Also known as the Red Branch Cycle, a body of Irish mythology dealing with traditional heroes of the Ulaid (Ulster)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3516" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="707" RevisionGUID="126bf0f8-e89e-4404-bde2-0a1cf56363fa" CreationDate="2015-05-15T21:08:30.493" Comment="Proposed by 42 approved by 57, 29 edit id of 190" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3517" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="701" RevisionGUID="524aa7b4-2a37-4392-b6be-93203a905ac3" CreationDate="2015-05-15T21:08:33.627" UserId="42" Comment="added 85 characters in body" Text="The aboriginal people of current-day Canada, excluding the Inuit and Métis peoples.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3518" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="701" RevisionGUID="524aa7b4-2a37-4392-b6be-93203a905ac3" CreationDate="2015-05-15T21:08:33.627" Comment="Proposed by 42 approved by 57, 29 edit id of 187" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3519" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="705" RevisionGUID="3b86f537-956a-4b90-913f-bc9633e00ae1" CreationDate="2015-05-15T21:08:36.483" UserId="42" Comment="added 113 characters in body" Text="Used for the First Nations peoples of British Columbia who speak, or historically spoke, the Halkomelem language." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3520" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="705" RevisionGUID="3b86f537-956a-4b90-913f-bc9633e00ae1" CreationDate="2015-05-15T21:08:36.483" Comment="Proposed by 42 approved by 57, 29 edit id of 189" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3521" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="704" RevisionGUID="7a872285-028d-4fee-8fc4-4b2f64fb69c3" CreationDate="2015-05-15T21:08:43.737" UserId="42" Comment="added 872 characters in body" Text="Halkomelem is a Coastal Salish language, used by the First Nations people of southwest British Columbia and Vancouver Island.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This includes the following bands:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Downriver dialect group:&#xD;&#xA;Tsleil-Waututh (Burrards), &#xD;&#xA;Musqueam (Hmethkwyem), &#xD;&#xA;Kwantlen, &#xD;&#xA;Katzie,&#xD;&#xA;Kwikwetlem, &#xD;&#xA;Snokomish, &#xD;&#xA;Tsawwassen.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Island dialect group:&#xD;&#xA;Cowichan, &#xD;&#xA;Lake Cowichan, &#xD;&#xA;Malahat, &#xD;&#xA;Halalt, &#xD;&#xA;Lamalcha (Hwlitsum),&#xD;&#xA;Lyackson, &#xD;&#xA;Pauquachin, &#xD;&#xA;Penelakut, &#xD;&#xA;Stz'uminus (Chemainus), &#xD;&#xA;Snaw-naw-as, &#xD;&#xA;Qualicum, &#xD;&#xA;Snuneymuxw (Nanaimo), &#xD;&#xA;Scia'new (Beecher Bay Band).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Upriver dialect group:&#xD;&#xA;Tsleil-Waututh (Burrards), &#xD;&#xA;Aitchelitz, &#xD;&#xA;Chawathil, &#xD;&#xA;Cheam, &#xD;&#xA;Leq' a: mel, &#xD;&#xA;Matsqui, &#xD;&#xA;Popkum, &#xD;&#xA;Qayqayt, &#xD;&#xA;Seabird Island, &#xD;&#xA;Skawahlook (Tait), &#xD;&#xA;Shxw'ow'hamel, &#xD;&#xA;Skway (Shxwhá:y), &#xD;&#xA;Skowkale, &#xD;&#xA;Skwah, &#xD;&#xA;Soowahlie, &#xD;&#xA;Sts'Ailes (Chehalis, BC), &#xD;&#xA;Sumas, &#xD;&#xA;Tzeachten, &#xD;&#xA;Yakweakwioose." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3522" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="704" RevisionGUID="7a872285-028d-4fee-8fc4-4b2f64fb69c3" CreationDate="2015-05-15T21:08:43.737" Comment="Proposed by 42 approved by 57, 29 edit id of 188" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3523" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="708" RevisionGUID="4ddfc9ba-25c2-4280-851f-9179d4792e7a" CreationDate="2015-05-15T21:24:38.313" UserId="31" Comment="added link" Text="Plato [describes Atlantis][1] as&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Three rings of water with two rings of land surrounded the city center. The water rings were connected with canals and a 5-mile canal connected to the ocean. On the land rings were houses, various civic buildings, gardens, and other structures. The diameter of the entire city was only 2-miles. Surrounding the center city was a huge plain and a large mountainous area. Much of this land was of a rural nature with grazing animals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Santorini][2] would be a good match for this as it [did have the required structure][3] prior to c1645BC and it was also suject to a massive volcanic eruption probably somewhere between [1627BC and 1600BC][4] which significantly changed the shape of the island and would have destroyed any [civilisation][5] based there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Against this, Plato also said that Atlantis was &quot;outside the Pillars of Heracles&quot; (which are usually interpreted as being the Straits of Gibraltar) and that it was &quot;an island greater in extent than Libya and Asia&quot;. Such constraints would put it somewhere in the Atlantic Ocean, however there is [no sign of any large sunken island there][6].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.edgarcayce.org/_AncientMysteriesTemp/platocayce.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Santorini,+Greece/@36.4071539,25.4206309,12z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x1499ce86adfd9ff7:0xb2a761f740d68afc&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.decadevolcano.net/santorini/preminoan.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.volcanodiscovery.com/santorini/minoan_eruption/1613bc_olive-tree-date.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Attraction_Review-g1189834-d4126654-Reviews-Akrotiri_Archaeological_Site-Akrotiri_Santorini_Cyclades.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://unmuseum.mus.pa.us/atlantis.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3528" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="709" RevisionGUID="892fa8be-7e61-4baf-9539-0cb9648dba46" CreationDate="2015-05-16T00:05:52.923" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="In the short story [Descent of the Goddess Ishtar into the Lower World](http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/mesopotamian/ishtar.html), Ishtar travels to the underworld, and then returns.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; To the land of no return, the land of darkness,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ishtar, the daughter&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Sin directed her thought,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ishtar on arriving at the gate of the land of no return,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; To the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gatekeeper thus addressed herself:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately, I don't understand why she would do that. Can anyone explain?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3529" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="709" RevisionGUID="892fa8be-7e61-4baf-9539-0cb9648dba46" CreationDate="2015-05-16T00:05:52.923" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="Why does Ishtar go to the underworld?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3530" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="709" RevisionGUID="892fa8be-7e61-4baf-9539-0cb9648dba46" CreationDate="2015-05-16T00:05:52.923" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="|sumerian|ishtar|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3532" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="710" RevisionGUID="8bd549a4-4e52-457d-941d-ca421b46679b" CreationDate="2015-05-16T01:27:11.260" UserId="292" Text="According to the myth, she &quot;opened her ear to the underworld&quot;, and, after prudently arranging for help if it goes wrong, she goes to the doors of the underworld and demands entrance. The other myths about her tell us how she got her power and dominions, in this myth she goes to the one place where she has no power, and survives, just. It seems to be a model of heroic initiation, like Odin hanging on the World Tree." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3533" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="711" RevisionGUID="d194f204-74a4-434c-9317-3cd974cb40e7" CreationDate="2015-05-16T02:02:59.117" UserId="171" Text="Ishtar was the goddess of fertility. She was married to _Tammuz_ and when he died Ishtar was still young. She fell then in love with Gilgamesh (when he was king) but it seems he was not interested in her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; After being rejected by Gilgamesh, Ishtar became depressed and decided she would descend into the Underworld to be with Tammuz&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt; source: [Ishtar’s journey into the Underworld][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So she goes there due to her sorrow, in order to rejoin with her former husband and lover.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There she goes trough the seven gates that lead to the underworld. As she passes each door she loses her jewels, clothing, etc. The Ruler of the underworld has her striped of her powers and memories (and all memories of her past existence, of her great love Tammuz, disappeared too). Then the other gods must &quot;rescue&quot; her from the underworld to bring back fertility on earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]:http://fairytalesoftheworld.com/quick-reads/ishtars-journey-into-the-underworld/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3534" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="712" RevisionGUID="e3e0e414-426f-4bfa-8908-8611056469c8" CreationDate="2015-05-16T02:31:30.050" UserId="293" Text="Many blogs and websites say that people who die on the Nile by drowning or being eaten by a crocodile are deified. They are chosen by Osiris and are somehow involved in the flooding of the Nile or some-such thing like that. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a specific myth (Egyptian, Greek, Roman, anything really) that this is based on? And which writers wrote about this phenomenon?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3535" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="712" RevisionGUID="e3e0e414-426f-4bfa-8908-8611056469c8" CreationDate="2015-05-16T02:31:30.050" UserId="293" Text="Are people who drown/die in the Nile deified (or divinized in some way)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3536" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="712" RevisionGUID="e3e0e414-426f-4bfa-8908-8611056469c8" CreationDate="2015-05-16T02:31:30.050" UserId="293" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3537" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="713" RevisionGUID="0315b5e2-a356-42ef-bfbb-18a676084e7e" CreationDate="2015-05-16T03:17:23.047" UserId="42" Text="The Descent of Inanna (Ishtar) was unearthed from 1889 - 1900, but as far as I can tell, it wasn't really considered that well reconstructed until around 1940.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I will be [Wolkstein and Kramer's translation](http://www.amazon.com/Inanna-Queen-Heaven-Earth-Stories/dp/0060908548) of the text, published in 1983.  Both because it's excellent and well-explained, and because it's the one sitting on my desk.  [Full text here.](http://people.uncw.edu/deagona/myth/Descent%20Of%20Inanna.pdf)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We could take Inanna (Ishtar) at her word.  Her overt reason is given:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Inanna answered:  &#xD;&#xA;&quot;Because . . . of my older sister, Ereshkigal,  &#xD;&#xA;Her husband, Gugulanna, the Bull of Heaven, has died.  &#xD;&#xA;I have come to witness the funeral rites.  &#xD;&#xA;Let the beer of his funeral rites be poured into the cup.  &#xD;&#xA;Let it be done.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That, however, is just the excuse she gives at the gate.  It doesn't seem likely this is her real reason for the trip.  More likely the real reason is shown here:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; From the Great Above she opened her ear to the Great Below.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; From the Great Above the goddess opened her ear to the Great Below.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; From the Great Above Inanna opened her ear to the Great Below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which gives us the hint that she has heard the Great Below, the underworld, in some way.  Wolkstein's explanations, however, give us more to go on:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Inanna is the Queen of Heaven and Earth, but she does not know the underworld.  Until her ear opens to the Great Below, her understanding is necessarily limited.  In Sumerian, the word for ear and wisdom is the same ... In order to fully appreciate or &quot;know&quot;  what is said or meant, a great understanding is needed - an understanding of all things.  It is the Great Below, and knowledge of death and rebirth, life and stasis, that will make Inanna an &quot;Honored Counselor&quot; and a guide to the land.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So Inanna, already powerful and knowledgeable of Heaven and Earth, needs to acquire knowledge of death and the underworld to be complete in her wisdom.  This is further supported later, from the statement of Enlil, when hearing that Inanna has not returned from the underworld:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;My daughter craved the Great Above.  &#xD;&#xA;Inanna craved the Great Below.  &#xD;&#xA;She who receives the *me* of the underworld does not return.  &#xD;&#xA;She who goes to the Dark City stays there.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here Enlil (and later, Nanna, in an identical statement) states that Inanna has gone seeking the *me* of the underworld.  *me* is a tricky word that most translators refuse to translate, and too much can be said about it to address completely here.  Suffice to say, the *me* represent knowledge and wisdom.  So, the gods know that she has gone seeking that knowledge that can only be gained in the underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To go just one more step, a *very popular* interpretation of the text is through a Jungian lens.  Just to hit the main points very briefly.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The goal of gaining wisdom of the underworld, to complement the wisdom of the heavens and of the earth, speaks of Inanna becoming complete, but this interpretation views it, instead of her completing her body of knowledge, she is completing herself, developing into a *whole* person (goddess).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this light, we see Inanna and her sister Ereshkigal as part of the same whole person.  In order to become complete, Inanna must become vulnerable, and face the dark side of herself (Ereshkigal), die and be reborn.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Inanna abandons her temples on the way to the underworld, and has to leave her crown, robe and other vestments (also *me*, like I said, complicated) at the gates of the underworld.  She arrives naked, powerless and vulnerable.  The death and rebirth are fairly clear to be read, but of particular interest is that after Inanna's death, and preparing for rebirth, Ereshkigal is in pain &quot;With the cries of a woman about to give birth.&quot;  Which does rather speak to the interpretation of being reborn from her darker half." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3538" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="713" RevisionGUID="ecf1cbad-c9b0-4644-8f6b-76cb98b617af" CreationDate="2015-05-16T03:24:24.440" UserId="42" Comment="added 15 characters in body" Text="The Descent of Inanna (Ishtar) was unearthed from 1889 - 1900, but as far as I can tell, it wasn't really considered that well reconstructed until around the 1940s.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I will be using [Wolkstein and Kramer's translation](http://www.amazon.com/Inanna-Queen-Heaven-Earth-Stories/dp/0060908548) of the text, published in 1983.  Both because it's excellent and well-explained, and because it's the one sitting on my desk.  [Full text here.](http://people.uncw.edu/deagona/myth/Descent%20Of%20Inanna.pdf)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, we could take Inanna (Ishtar) at her word.  Her overt reason is given:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Inanna answered:  &#xD;&#xA;&quot;Because . . . of my older sister, Ereshkigal,  &#xD;&#xA;Her husband, Gugulanna, the Bull of Heaven, has died.  &#xD;&#xA;I have come to witness the funeral rites.  &#xD;&#xA;Let the beer of his funeral rites be poured into the cup.  &#xD;&#xA;Let it be done.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That, however, is just the excuse she gives at the gate.  It doesn't seem likely this is her real reason for the trip.  More likely the real reason is shown here:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; From the Great Above she opened her ear to the Great Below.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; From the Great Above the goddess opened her ear to the Great Below.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; From the Great Above Inanna opened her ear to the Great Below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which gives us the hint that she has heard the Great Below, the underworld, in some way.  Wolkstein's explanations, however, give us more to go on:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Inanna is the Queen of Heaven and Earth, but she does not know the underworld.  Until her ear opens to the Great Below, her understanding is necessarily limited.  In Sumerian, the word for ear and wisdom is the same ... In order to fully appreciate or &quot;know&quot;  what is said or meant, a great understanding is needed - an understanding of all things.  It is the Great Below, and knowledge of death and rebirth, life and stasis, that will make Inanna an &quot;Honored Counselor&quot; and a guide to the land.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So Inanna, already powerful and knowledgeable of Heaven and Earth, needs to acquire knowledge of death and the underworld to be complete in her wisdom.  This is further supported later, from the statement of Enlil, when hearing that Inanna has not returned from the underworld:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;My daughter craved the Great Above.  &#xD;&#xA;Inanna craved the Great Below.  &#xD;&#xA;She who receives the *me* of the underworld does not return.  &#xD;&#xA;She who goes to the Dark City stays there.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here Enlil (and later, Nanna, in an identical statement) states that Inanna has gone seeking the *me* of the underworld.  *me* is a tricky word that most translators refuse to translate, and too much can be said about it to address completely here.  Suffice to say, the *me* represent knowledge and wisdom.  So, the gods know that she has gone seeking that knowledge that can only be gained in the underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To go just one more step, a *very popular* interpretation of the text is through a Jungian lens.  Just to hit the main points very briefly.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The goal of gaining wisdom of the underworld, to complement the wisdom of the heavens and of the earth, speaks of Inanna becoming complete, but this interpretation views it, instead of her completing her body of knowledge, she is completing herself, developing into a *whole* person (goddess).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this light, we see Inanna and her sister Ereshkigal as part of the same whole person.  In order to become complete, Inanna must become vulnerable, and face the dark side of herself (Ereshkigal), die and be reborn.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Inanna abandons her temples on the way to the underworld, and has to leave her crown, robe and other vestments (also *me*, like I said, complicated) at the gates of the underworld.  She arrives naked, powerless and vulnerable.  The death and rebirth are fairly clear to be read, but of particular interest is that after Inanna's death, and preparing for rebirth, Ereshkigal is in pain &quot;With the cries of a woman about to give birth.&quot;  Which does rather speak to the interpretation of being reborn from her darker half." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3540" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="712" RevisionGUID="57105612-41dc-4d84-a7e6-b2d98b38d082" CreationDate="2015-05-16T07:32:29.147" UserId="18" Comment="Added tag." Text="|egyptian|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3541" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="712" RevisionGUID="57105612-41dc-4d84-a7e6-b2d98b38d082" CreationDate="2015-05-16T07:32:29.147" Comment="Proposed by 18 approved by 42, 57 edit id of 191" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3542" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="714" RevisionGUID="56ff6451-4cf4-4c0e-abb1-4de9fcb61cdf" CreationDate="2015-05-16T09:57:08.523" UserId="295" Text="I remember reading a myth as a child, but have not been able finding it again ever since. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It starts like a typical Apollo myth: Apollo has a young best friend/lover, and they are inseparable. Then the young man's sixteenth birthday approaches (or was it some other day symbolizing the coming of age?), and Apollo wants to give him the best present a mortal has ever had. But he is neither powerful enough to grant the best, nor wise enough to know what the best is. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollo then goes to Zeus and asks him to give his friend the best present on his special day. Zeus agrees and Apollo tells his friend, both awaiting the day with happy apprehension. But then, on the birthday, the young boy is struck by lightning. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollo is very angry and demands an explanation of Zeus. The explanation: Zeus killed the boy on the happiest day of his life, before he had met the sorrow of the drudging adult routine. This was the best present a mortal could have. Apollo understands this and mourns his friend. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have forgotten the name of the boy. Upon checking, it's not one of the usual suspects (Hyacinth, Cyparis). I also don't know any more where I have read it, although it's not in the thick Kuhn edition of the Greek myths in my parents' home. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does anybody recognize the myth? Can you give me more info about the name of the boy, and a source where it is recorded?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3543" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="714" RevisionGUID="56ff6451-4cf4-4c0e-abb1-4de9fcb61cdf" CreationDate="2015-05-16T09:57:08.523" UserId="295" Text="Looking for an obscure Apollo myth" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3544" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="714" RevisionGUID="56ff6451-4cf4-4c0e-abb1-4de9fcb61cdf" CreationDate="2015-05-16T09:57:08.523" UserId="295" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3545" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="714" RevisionGUID="3efe4434-9154-4645-ac94-346994f1f357" CreationDate="2015-05-16T10:44:22.900" UserId="57" Comment="bit more descriptive title; edited tags" Text="Looking for an obscure myth where Zeus kills one of Apollo's male lovers" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3546" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="714" RevisionGUID="3efe4434-9154-4645-ac94-346994f1f357" CreationDate="2015-05-16T10:44:22.900" UserId="57" Comment="bit more descriptive title; edited tags" Text="|greek|myth-identification|zeus|apollo|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3548" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="715" RevisionGUID="a469680f-4e7e-4c56-b7b0-9c5ceb09b236" CreationDate="2015-05-16T15:23:27.827" UserId="215" Text="Both Jörmungandr and Fenrir are Loki's children and are mentioned in connection to Ragnarok.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But do they as beings have any sort of relationship/interaction between each other mentioned in any of the sources?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3549" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="715" RevisionGUID="a469680f-4e7e-4c56-b7b0-9c5ceb09b236" CreationDate="2015-05-16T15:23:27.827" UserId="215" Text="Did Jörmungandr and Fenrir have any relationship/interaction aside from sharing a father?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3550" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="715" RevisionGUID="a469680f-4e7e-4c56-b7b0-9c5ceb09b236" CreationDate="2015-05-16T15:23:27.827" UserId="215" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3555" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="717" RevisionGUID="654d0c7b-76dd-4e20-8575-0fe9c68cf2d4" CreationDate="2015-05-16T15:55:32.090" UserId="183" Text="#Etymology and related names&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[*Sasquatch: Legend Meets Science*, by Jeff Meldrum](http://books.google.com/books?id=ggeQHFa5E7AC&amp;lpg=PA50&amp;dq=salish+sasquatch&amp;pg=PA50&amp;hl=en#v=onepage&amp;q=salish%20sasquatch&amp;f=false), says (emphasis mine):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The various tribes across North America have attached their own names to the entity. These names number more than sixty, but most generally make reference to a &quot;Wildman of the woods.&quot; In the 1920s, Canadian journalist J.W. Burns coined the term *Sasquatch* as a common denominator for the myriad of native names. ***Sasquatch* derives directly from the word &quot;*sésquac*.&quot;** The original word, in the dialect of the Stó:lò dialect of the Halkomelem language, is used by the Coast Sasqu Indians of the Frase Valley and parts of Vancouver Island, British Columbia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This](http://thelongestlistofthelongeststuffatthelongestdomainnameatlonglast.com/trivia10.html) translates &quot;sésquac&quot; as &quot;wild man.&quot; [This](http://www.bfro.net/gdb/show_FAQ.asp?id=584) has a passage curiously similar to the one in Meldrum's book:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The term &quot;sasquatch&quot; is an anglicized derivative of the word &quot;Sésquac&quot;, meaning &quot;wild man&quot;. The original word, in the Stó:lõ dialect of the Halkomelem language, is used by the Coast Salish Indians of the Fraser Valley and parts of Vancouver Island, British Columbia. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Indian tribes across North America have a total of more than sixty different terms for the sasquatch.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Strangely enough, Meldrum is not listed in the [&quot;Useful Links&quot;](http://www.bfro.net/gdb/show_FAQ.asp?id=588) section, though that should not be confused with sources.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A fairly detailed list of name related to the creature is given by [Ontario Sasquatch](http://www.ontariosasquatch.com/#/canadian-names-pg-1/4522683510). Most related words are simply translated as &quot;Sasquatch&quot; (or &quot;male Sasquatch&quot; or &quot;female Sasquatch&quot;), though the word &quot;Suhsq’uhtch&quot;, used by the Coast Salish people, is translated as &quot;men, covered with dark fur, more than eight feet tall, who leave footprints about twenty inches long.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Cowicham people gave the creatures the name &quot;Thumquas.&quot;](http://www.joejack.com/sasquatch.html). Interestingly enough, the Cowicham people do speak [Halkomelem](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halkomelem), though Wikipedia describes them as speaking a branch distinct from that of the Stó:lò.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the most tantalizing sources I could find about the mythology surrounding the name was from the article [&quot;Retired principal puts out second pre-teen novel&quot;, by Clyde Woolman (*Comox Valley Record*)](http://www.comoxvalleyrecord.com/entertainment/224265911.html) (emphasis mine):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It at least seems reasonably clear that the origin of the English word came from an Agassiz teacher in the 1920s **who heard the term sasq'ets from the Sts'ailes (Chehalis) people) who live in the area, which described a sollicum, a being of the natural and supernatural world.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The word &quot;sollicum&quot; does not seem to appear anywhere else related the Chehalis mythology - at least, nowhere that I could find.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[A page on SasquatchSighting.ca](http://sasquatchsighting.ca/the-legend-of-saskakaua-creek) claims (emphasis mine),&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **The legends of Sasquatch have been part of the Chehalis tribe for centuries. In fact, their oral history says that sasquatch are their mortal enemies.** And in their St:olo dialect the word Saskakaua roughly means “Place of the Wild Men”.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[*The Sunday Journal and Star*](http://www.bfro.net/GDB/ReportImages/article_bc_1934_NE_large.gif) says much the same thing. In the lower left-hand corner,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The existence of a troglodytic race inhabiting the mountains of British Columbia in many of the vast caves  is a tribal legend among the Chehalis Indians and those of the Skwah Reservation, near Chilliwack, in the Harrison Lake district, about a hundred miles east of Vancouver. Among the Indians the race has been known for centuries by the name &quot;Sasquatch,&quot; or hairy men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The article later says that legends date back &quot;at least three generations&quot; (this was written in 1934).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This](http://www.bigfootencounters.com/articles/sasq-ets.htm) also says&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The creature has a spiritual quality for the Chehalis--the spiritual and physical are closely connected in First Nations beliefs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It also says that First Nations people all over have legends based around the creature, and that rock paintings appear to have been made of them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I was not able to find anything about &quot;Thumquas,&quot; unfortunately.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One a side note, [the Quinalt people have a legend about a being known as &quot;Glue-Keek&quot;](http://www.bigfootencounters.com/articles/quinalt.htm). A Quinalt woman, Harvest Moon, tells the story (also given [here](http://www.sasquatchchronicles.com/bigfoot-believers/):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Harvest Moon is familiar with several native legends about Bigfoot. The Quinault woman works as a storyteller at the Lake Quinault Lodge and other resorts along the coast during the summer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; She tells the story of the Glue-Keek monster she learned from a Lummi elder and its ties to the creation of mosquitos. The monster frightens tribal members and prevents them from hunting and gathering food.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; His legs were as big as tree trunks, she said while swaying her hips and making arm and hand gestures during a recent storytelling presentation at the Lake Quinault Lodge. His skin was as tough as leather and his eyes had a hypnotic glow to them. The monster started chasing the women through the berry patch. He took his huge, big feet, knocking over every basket of berries, wasting them on the ground.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to the legend, warriors from various tribes gathered and vowed to kill the monster. They dug a hole, tricked Glue-Keek into falling into it and burned him. As Glue-Keek perished, he swore he would return to drink the villagers blood. As his ashes ascended into the air, they transformed into mosquitos." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3556" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="715" RevisionGUID="2fa60b8c-9df8-48a8-8b33-d213ac84bcf0" CreationDate="2015-05-16T15:56:42.010" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|ragnarok|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3557" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="179" RevisionGUID="edd4d617-7b84-46ae-936e-641d5752d044" CreationDate="2015-05-16T16:04:21.450" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 11 characters in body; edited title" Text="In Genesis, chapter 4, it says&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 14 &quot;Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who are those that when they find him will kill him? Were there other people on earth?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Reminder: Cain was Adam and Eve's son, and this proverb was after he killed his older brother (so he was left alone with his parents)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3558" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="179" RevisionGUID="edd4d617-7b84-46ae-936e-641d5752d044" CreationDate="2015-05-16T16:04:21.450" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 11 characters in body; edited title" Text="Who are those that Cain refers to in Chapter 4:14?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3559" PostHistoryTypeId="11" PostId="179" RevisionGUID="c8c6e0be-4f1c-44a5-9712-e3b0417ce12c" CreationDate="2015-05-16T16:04:21.640" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:42,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;femtoRgon&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:171,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Deion&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:124,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;santiago&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:11,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;durron597&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:183,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;HDE 226868&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="3560" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="699" RevisionGUID="12b6c641-b6b0-4675-a219-9af6a8d6f0ca" CreationDate="2015-05-16T16:05:39.913" UserId="183" Comment="edited tags; edited title" Text="What is sásq'ets, from Halkomelem myths?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3561" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="699" RevisionGUID="12b6c641-b6b0-4675-a219-9af6a8d6f0ca" CreationDate="2015-05-16T16:05:39.913" UserId="183" Comment="edited tags; edited title" Text="|mythical-creatures|native-american|first-nations|halkomelem|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3562" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="718" RevisionGUID="d3d36e64-b92a-4f32-b556-efdeeb67ebba" CreationDate="2015-05-16T16:07:28.817" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="Throughout the story, it's very clear that one &quot;power&quot; is responsible for the events occurring to Manawydon and his friends:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'God knows,' said the other 'your counsel to go into the caer is not good. We did not see this caer here ever before. If you would follow my counsel, you would not go in. Whoever put enchantment on this land, has also made the caer appear here.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(All quotes are from the source cited in the question)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Part of the enchantment is that the character's land becomes deserted, and when the bishop (and the priest and the scholar) visit, &quot;It had been all of seven years since he had seen man or beast - other than the four people who had been together (until  two had been lost).&quot; Since the visitors are concerned with saving one of the creatures responsible for the devastation of Manawydon's land, it doesn't take a genius to guess that they had something to do with the other enchantments." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3563" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="719" RevisionGUID="096fd32d-f1e2-4099-9439-fa49d97fdc56" CreationDate="2015-05-16T16:53:05.170" UserId="18" Text="###The magnitude of Cain's crime was immense.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the record in Genesis, the first children of Adam and Eve that we know of are Cain, Abel, and Seth. At the time that Cain killed Abel, then, it is plausible to conclude that Cain just killed half of the rest of the human race. It's bad enough to kill someone else, worse to kill them over the quality of sacrifices and God's acceptance of them, worse still to kill your own brother, and then you add in the fact that Cain killed one of only four humans alive at the time. Cain has committed one of the greatest crimes imaginable. He is very much deserving of death, and he has good reason to be fearful of others that might want to take vengeance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;###The identity of the others.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who are these others, you might ask? Well...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. 4 After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 6 When Seth had lived 105 years, he became the father of Enosh. 7 After he became the father of Enosh, Seth lived 807 years and had other sons and daughters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ~ [Genesis 5](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%205&amp;version=NIV)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would conjecture that Cain lived about as long as Seth, give or take a couple hundred years.&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; Supposing somewhat arbitrarily that Cain lived 800 years, in that time the family tree would be at least **six** levels deep just from Seth's branch. The following people would have been born in Cain's lifespan: Seth, Enosh, Kenan, Mahalalel, Jared, Enoch, and Methusaleh. This is not counting the other sons and daughters *each* of them had. Including Adam, incidentally. To get a rough, lower-bound estimate for the number of descendants of Seth alive in Cain's time, I'm going to assume that each son had five children, three of whom are sons.&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; This leads to **at least 1215** people alive in Cain's lifetime who would have had reason to find him and kill him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That's a lower bound. Adam and Eve also had &quot;other sons and daughters&quot; (which would bump up the population to at least 4000), and Cain himself had progeny. We're talking at least **5000** people living before Cain died, a significant portion of which might want to kill him. It is also quite possible that Adam and Eve already had other children by the time they had Cain, and in either case, Cain was probably smart enough to realize that there would be other people that would want to kill him, even if they hadn't been born yet. Hence, his fear is justified.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; Now that's a phrase you won't hear often regarding human lifespans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; Given the lack of a prohibition against incest, which didn't appear until Moses' time&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;, I'm going to assume that the daughters very well might have married brothers/cousins. It's easiest to leave them out of the calculation (and I'm calculating a *lower* bound anyway).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; [Leviticus 18:8-18](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=leviticus%2018:8-18:18&amp;version=NIV) and [Leviticus 20:11-21](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=leviticus%2020:11-20:21&amp;version=NIV)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3569" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="712" RevisionGUID="05f7799a-ac36-4294-8b9c-842985b72eda" CreationDate="2015-05-16T17:44:12.087" UserId="183" Comment="added 86 characters in body" Text="[Many blogs](http://aediculaantinoi.wordpress.com/) [and websites](http://redeeminggod.com/egyptian-baptism/) say that people who die on the Nile by drowning or being eaten by a crocodile are deified. They are chosen by Osiris and are somehow involved in the flooding of the Nile or some-such thing like that. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a specific myth (Egyptian, Greek, Roman, anything really) that this is based on? And which writers wrote about this phenomenon?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3577" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="722" RevisionGUID="7ea59809-cf5a-4b13-baf3-0e5084318504" CreationDate="2015-05-16T20:20:20.923" UserId="183" Text="In Geoffrey of Monmouth's [*Vita Merlini*](http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/merlini.html), Merlin discussed past (and future) British history. He goes on at great length about the time of Arthur, describing some of his later exploits after defeating &quot;a pagan people from Angla&quot; with the help of Hoel, king of Brittany:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Soon after this struggle he subdued the Scots and, changing the direction of his campaign, the war-like Irish. He overcame all nations in the expeditions he led. He brought into subjection both the Norwegians who lived far across the broad seas and the Danes whom he sought out with his dreaded fleet.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;He brought the people of France under his rule after killing Frollo, to whose care the country had been committed by those in power at Rome. He even fought and defeated the Romans themselves when they were preparing a campaign against his kingdom. He killed the procurator Lucius Hiberius, who had become the colleague of Emperor Leo and had come on the Senate's orders to bring the French territories back under its authority.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;During this time the faithless and foolhardy guardian of our realm, Modred, had begun to take over the kingdom and to carry on an unlawful love affair with the king's wife. The king, it is said, had entrusted the kingdom and the queen to Modred's care when about to leave on a campaign against his enemies overseas. When the report of this great crime reached his ears, he gave up his intended campaign and returned home, landing with many thousands of men. He attacked his nephew and drove him abroad in flight. There this man of treachery gathered Saxon troops from all quarters and began a battle against his prince. But he was tricked by the evil race on whom he had relied in his large enterprise, and he was killed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And, of course, after being taken to Avalon soon after being wounded during the battle in which he killed his nephew,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;! Arthur died.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Merlin then talks about how &quot;the two sons of Modred&quot; fought each other for the crown and killed each other, which made the time ripe for Arthur's nephew, Constantine, to become king, shortly after Arthur's death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Merlin is then interrupted by retainers, and never (it appears) finishes his story - if he intended to say any more, that is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Obviously, Arthur's empire did not last. Did Geoffrey of Monmouth ever elaborate on how long it lasted?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a follow-up question, does he specify why it crumbled (though I think the answer is rather clear)? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Supposedly, the story is also written in Geoffrey's *Historia Regum Britanniae*, though I have not yet read it.&lt;/sup&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3578" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="722" RevisionGUID="7ea59809-cf5a-4b13-baf3-0e5084318504" CreationDate="2015-05-16T20:20:20.923" UserId="183" Text="How long did King Arthur's empire last?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3579" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="722" RevisionGUID="7ea59809-cf5a-4b13-baf3-0e5084318504" CreationDate="2015-05-16T20:20:20.923" UserId="183" Text="|welsh|arthurian|vita-merlini|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3581" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="256" RevisionGUID="4da5bf55-5aba-42af-bbfd-09139341e044" CreationDate="2015-05-16T21:58:05.537" UserId="236" Comment="3" />
  <row Id="3582" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="685" RevisionGUID="a95966bd-813f-42f4-9a2d-4c60bdf4c637" CreationDate="2015-05-16T22:43:02.223" UserId="183" Comment="edited tags" Text="|welsh|roman|mabinogion|comparative|the-native-tales|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3583" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="723" RevisionGUID="c526495f-8edc-4229-bde5-6a7d8851305d" CreationDate="2015-05-17T00:59:00.817" UserId="42" Text="Yes, there is a basis for it.  In [Herodotus, Book II](http://perseus.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/GreekScience/hdtbk2.html):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Chapter 90**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [1] Anyone, Egyptian or foreigner, known to have been carried off by a crocodile or drowned by the river itself, must by all means be embalmed and wrapped as attractively as possible and buried in a sacred coffin by the people of the place where he is cast ashore;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [2] none of his relatives or friends may touch him, but his body is considered something more than human, and is handled and buried by the priests of the Nile themselves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aaron Cheak, of the University of Philosophical Research writes more on the topic in an article titled: [&quot;Waters Animating and Annihilating: Apotheosis by Drowning in the Greek Magical Papyri&quot;](http://www.aaroncheak.com/waters-animating/) (Yes, sketchy-sounding name aside, the [Greek Magical Papyri](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Magical_Papyri) are a real thing).  He asserts that this apotheosis by drowning was due to the connection to the death and ressurection of Osiris:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Only later, from the New Kingdom through to the late period, were the drowned increasingly regarded as sacred. This is due chiefly to the increasing significance of the role of Osiris, for whom drowning becomes instrumental to his revivification and deification. As Hopfner observes: “only after death by drowning could he [Osiris] become a god.” It is thus the myth of Osiris—and more significantly his death and resurrection at the hands of his enemy, Seth-Typhon—that underpins the motif of apotheosis by drowning that we meet in the magical papyri.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also worth mentioning, there is one significant example of a drowning in the Nile leading to a good and proper Roman state deification, complete with widespread cult.  [Antinous](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinous#Deification_and_the_cult_of_Antinous), a lover of Emperor Hadrian, died by downing in the Nile.  Emperor Hadrian was devasted, and, in an unprecented move (for someone not in the ruling family), Hadrian deified him.  His cult spread to at least 70 cities, and at least 115 scultures of him are known to survive today.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first blog linked in your question seems to have conflated these two somewhat, although I didn't really give it a thorough read." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3584" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="349" RevisionGUID="11d42757-4bff-455c-a9e0-e9ea4e339dd0" CreationDate="2015-05-17T01:36:25.430" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added evidence" Text="There are three different &quot;lenses&quot; that we can use to answer this question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# What is &quot;ball&quot;?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's a description of a similar ball game played by the Aztecs&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These balls... were solid, of a certain resin or gum which is called ulli [rubber] which is very light in weight and bounces like an inflated ball.... The ballgame was called tlaxtli or tlachtli. The court consisted of two walls with some twenty or thirty feet of distance between them and each was up to forty or fifty feet in length. The floor and walls were heavily plastered, the latter having some one and a half estados [nearly ten feet] in height. In the middle of the court was a line made especially for the game; and in the middle of the walls, halfway down the playing stretch, were two stones like millstones perforated in the middle, facing each other, and they each had holes wide enough that the ball could fit into each of them. And whoever placed the ball there won the game. They did not play with their hands but hit the ball with their flanks. For playing they wore gloves on their hands and a leather apron on their flanks to hit the ball (Sahagún 1938, II.viii.10, pp. 297-298).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([the online version of Allen J. Christenson's translation][3])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# The Game's Role in the Plot&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Just to summarise, the general plot of the Popol Vuh is one of a creation myth. It tells the story of how the gods created the worlds, the animals, and of the god's several attempts to create humans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An important thing to note is that the reason behind the failure of the gods several attempts to create humans is that their attempts could not speak the names of the gods (e.g. know of them or worship them). Here's an example of this (this passage accounts why just creating animals was insufficient):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Speak therefore our names. Worship  us, for we are your Mother and your Father. Say this, therefore: ‘Huracan, Youngest Thunderbolt, and Sudden Thunderbolt, Heart of Sky and Heart of Earth, Framer and Shaper, She Who Has Borne Children and He Who Has Begotten Sons.’ Speak! Call upon us! Worship us!” they were told.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; But they did not succeed. They did not speak like people. They only squawked and chattered and roared. Their speech was unrecognizable, for each cried out in a&#xD;&#xA;different way.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;When they heard this, the Framer and the Shaper said, “Their speech did not&#xD;&#xA;&gt;turn out well.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;And again they said to each other:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; “They were not able to speak our names. We are their Framer and their Shaper.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This is not good,” said She Who Has Borne Children and He Who Has Begotten Sons to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; each other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([the online version of Allen J. Christenson's translation][3])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Xibalba (the underworld) doesn't appear until after three failed creation attempts (the second and third attempts failed for the same reason as the first creation attempt). They first appear to oppose the fathers of the twins, &quot;One Hunahpu and Seven Hunahpu,&quot; who, it is important to note, were &quot;born to Xpiyacoc and Xmucane&quot; (two of the seven gods who created the world) ([Christenson][3]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “What is happening on the surface of the earth? They are just stomping about and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shouting. May they be summoned here therefore. They shall come to play ball, and we&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shall defeat them. They have simply failed to honor us. They have neither honor nor&#xD;&#xA;&gt; respect. Certainly they act arrogantly here over our heads,” said therefore all&#xD;&#xA;&gt; those of Xibalba.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Christenson][3])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It should become clear that the lords of Xibalba are an opposing force to the creation god(desses). Not only are they the lords of death, but they, like the lords of creation, also want recognition from humans. As explained in the online book [*Esotericism of the Popol Vuh*][1]&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; (which uses a different translation of the Popol Vuh):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; We have here a contest between opposing forces, since those of Xibalbá cannot tolerate that &quot; 'anyone greater than they, or any having greater power, should exist,' they all said unanimously.&quot; From this passage it is seen that the organization of the false gods is similar to that of the true since, like the latter, the false gods compose a sevenfold entity whose components must get together and reach decisions by a unanimity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact, when the Lords of Xibalba are defeated, their power is restricted, paving the way for the creation gods and goddesses to create humans: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Very well. Here then is our word that we declare to you. Hearken all&#xD;&#xA;&gt; you of Xibalba; for never again will you or your posterity be great.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Your offerings also will never again be great. They will henceforth be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reduced to croton sap. No longer will clean blood be yours. Unto you&#xD;&#xA;&gt; will be given only worn-out griddles and pots, only flimsy and brittle&#xD;&#xA;&gt; things.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thus began their devastation, the ruin of their being called upon in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; worship. Their glory was not great in the past, for they wanted only&#xD;&#xA;&gt; conflict with the people of ancient times. **Surely they were not true&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gods.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the plot perspective, the game &quot;ball&quot; is simply a competition to resolve the conflict, and the story wouldn't be much different if they played chess or another game.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Just to clarify the plot: One Hunahpu and Seven Hunahpu are defeated by Xibalba, but their sons learn to play ball, go to Xibalba, and defeat the Lords of Xibalba. Afterwords, humans are finally created.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# The Symbolic Interpretation of the Game&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, another way of looking at the game is as a symbol representing the sky. From [*Esotericism of the Popol Vuh*][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Besides symbolizing the sun's relative position in the order of its rising and its daily trajectory, Hunahpú and Ixbalamqué, playing alone for a long time on opposite sides of the court, represent the position of the sun and the moon at opposing solstices, just as this continues to be depicted on Chortí altars. All this unmistakably reflects a gradual progress in astronomic and cosmogonic knowledge. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Popol Vuh is the only American source to speak of the origin of the ball game and place it in time. Not only does it tell us of the game's ethnological antiquity, it also explains its symbolism. It in fact establishes a parallel between the ball players and the solar gods, which from the angles of the universe — to employ the phraseology of the Chumayel manuscript — meet in the center, in this case in the ball court, where they can convert themselves into two and even four persons with no loss of their theogonic individuality, at once a unity and a multiplicity. During the ball game they wear their resplendent ceremonial gear — that is, they exhibit their insignia as solar deities. Two by two they come from the eastern and western sectors of the cosmos and, meeting in the center, forge themselves into the individuality of Heart of Heaven. This fusion of a number of forms under &quot;one single head,&quot; as the Chortís say, is expressed in the principal rule of the game which is that the players can touch the ball only with their body but never with their heads, feet, or arms; each time this happens a point is given the other team. The continual contact of two or four bodies with a single ball makes clear the monotheistic principle whereby the deity integrates itself through the union of its hypostases. This idea is objectified in the group of ball players unable to use their heads or extremities since the ball — the symbol of the Star or Sun god — is alternatively the head of each. This figure of a single-headed god having many bodies is characteristic of Maya thought. We need only to remember Oxlahun-oc (&quot;it of the thirteen feet&quot;), who is mentioned in the Chilam Balam of Chumayel. The motion of the ball imitates the trajectory of the sun, a figure that the Chortí actors also reproduce in their dramatization of this part of the Popol Vuh. Besides this, the Quiché codex represents the descent of god-Seven from the Center of Heaven to the center of the earth by the solar bird which, coming down from on high, &quot;came to see them play.&quot; As said, in Chortí religious allegory the bird of prey, which is the mask, nahual, or messenger of the deity of Heaven, descends vertically to the center of the earth — like the sun's rays — when the daystar goes through the zenith, symbolizing the descent of divine grace. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This interpretation lends a new interpretation to the text: Xibalba, the &quot;Lords of the subterrene regions&quot; ([*Esotericism*][1]) are in conflict with the lords of the sky (the creators of the world) over power over the living world. The punishment of the Lords of Xibalba (&quot;you... shall no longer be allowed to play ball.&quot;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;) reflects that Xibalba is restricted to a subteranian sphere, and that the power of death is limited. This may be one of the reasons why the gods can then create humans who &quot;can speak their name.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, we don't know enough to know without a doubt the real symbolism behind the ball game&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;. The conquistadors deliberately supressed indiginous culture when they conquored central america, and only four written mayan documents remain. It's impossible to understate the destruction that these cultures faced, and we are very fortunate that texts like the Popol Vuh still exist.&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; I am continuously amazed at the quality of sources on mythology available online. Why would anyone want to read wikipedia?  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; This line does not occur in the Christenson translation, but the Lords of Xibalba still faced severe restrictions on their power.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; There is disagreement about the meaning of the ball game.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; A good account of the translation can be found [on JStor (behind a paywall)][2]. Another account, which also discusses the cultural destruction of the maya, is located in the preamble of [the online version of Allen J. Christenson's translation][3]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/popolvuh/pv-hp.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/20736600 &#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.mesoweb.com/publications/christenson/popolvuh.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3585" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="724" RevisionGUID="d0caafe0-595a-4a7b-b581-cf4405a9c66d" CreationDate="2015-05-17T02:57:53.397" UserId="215" Text="In most sources, Olympian gods were (nearly?) all directly descended from Chaos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Were they unique in this (having a shared ancestor deity, not too far up the family tree), or was it a common thing for a polytheistic pantheon?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3586" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="724" RevisionGUID="d0caafe0-595a-4a7b-b581-cf4405a9c66d" CreationDate="2015-05-17T02:57:53.397" UserId="215" Text="Were the Olympians unique in everyone being descended from single parentage?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3587" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="724" RevisionGUID="d0caafe0-595a-4a7b-b581-cf4405a9c66d" CreationDate="2015-05-17T02:57:53.397" UserId="215" Text="|greek|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3588" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="725" RevisionGUID="712836bb-85a1-4d6d-abe3-ec0582c89812" CreationDate="2015-05-17T09:59:42.220" UserId="304" Text="According to Graham Campbell, who has been doing a lot of research for a long time on megaliths and ancient cultures, there has been recent evidence of a gigantic cataclysm around 12500 years ago from multiple large fragments of a 200km Comet. Apparently the evidence, in the form of nano diamonds, widespread flood across North America, mass extinctions had been brought to light by about 30 specialists of one sort or another, but is kind of buried in various papers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He has been searching for a very long time for evidence of a global culture that he believes was responsible for megaliths in South America, Egypt, Turkey and which was flourishing before this huge event. He looks for evidence of cities in areas hundreds of metres below current sea level, which were flooded by the global flood around 12,000 years ago.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The comet hit the 2km thick ice sheet, producing massive heating and flooding, then that was followed by a worse ice age before this period ended. According to him, this period matches exactly the time that Plato was talking about. A talk containing details of his book to come where he describes some of this is at -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75j5CP0vtsI" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3589" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="726" RevisionGUID="1ea2ba7e-f35a-4097-8e62-a92984a77e6f" CreationDate="2015-05-17T12:20:58.670" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="In [The Descent of Inanna](http://people.uncw.edu/deagona/myth/Descent%20Of%20Inanna.pdf), the word &quot;me&quot; is used as a noun in several places:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; With the &#xD;&#xA;me&#xD;&#xA;in her possession, she prepared herself: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;She &#xD;&#xA;who receives the &#xD;&#xA;me&#xD;&#xA;of the underworld does not return. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What does the word &quot;me&quot; mean in this context?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3590" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="726" RevisionGUID="1ea2ba7e-f35a-4097-8e62-a92984a77e6f" CreationDate="2015-05-17T12:20:58.670" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="What is the meaning of the word &quot;me&quot; in The Descent of Inanna" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3591" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="726" RevisionGUID="1ea2ba7e-f35a-4097-8e62-a92984a77e6f" CreationDate="2015-05-17T12:20:58.670" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="|sumerian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3592" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="727" RevisionGUID="37bb96a9-4f78-4bf3-b9a3-75cdaa437eba" CreationDate="2015-05-17T12:51:09.757" UserId="29" Text="The concept of [*mes*][1] refers to set of ordinances of decrees as defined by the gods:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **In Sumerian mythology, a me (Sumerian, conventionally pronounced [mɛ]) or ñe [ŋɛ] or parşu (Akkadian, [parsˤu]) is one of the decrees of the gods foundational to those social institutions**, religious practices, technologies, behaviors, mores, and human conditions that make civilization, as the Sumerians understood it, possible. They are fundamental to the Sumerian understanding of the relationship between humanity and the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kramer and Maier explain the concept of *mes*, but also the relationship of [*Inanna*][3] with them :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Another important concept in Sumerian theology, was that of me. The me were universal decrees of divine authority.** They are the invocations that spread arts, crafts, and civilization. **The me were assembled by Enlil in Ekur and given to Enki to guard and impart to the world**, beginning with Eridu, his center of worship. From there, he guards the me and imparts them on the people. He directs the me towards Ur and Meluhha and Dilmun, organizing the world with his decrees. Later, **Inanna comes to Enki and complains at having been given too little power from his decrees.** In a different text, she gets Enki drunk and he grants her more powers, arts, crafts, and attributes - a total of ninety-four me. **Inanna parts company with Enki to deliver the me to her cult center at Erech.** Enki recovers his wits and tries to recover the me from her, but she arrives safely in Erech with them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[(Kramer &amp; Maier 1989: pp. 38-68)][4]&lt;/sub&gt; &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Sumerian FAQ][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Let me note, that a possible interpretation of the myth is the transfer of hegemony from [Eridu][6] to [Uruk][7] in [Sumerian History][8]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eridu was long considered the earliest city in southern Mesopotamia, and is still today argued to be the oldest city in the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][9]&lt;/sub&gt; &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Leick, Gwendolyn (2002), &quot;Mesopotamia: The Invention of the City&quot;][10]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In addition to being one of the first cities, Uruk was the main force of urbanization during the Uruk period (4000–3200 BC). This period of 800 years saw a shift from small, agricultural villages to a larger urban center with a full-time bureaucracy, military, and stratified society.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][11]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_%28mythology%29&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_%28mythology%29&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inanna&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.amazon.com/Myths-Enki-Crafty-Samuel-Kramer/dp/0195055020&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/sumer-faq.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eridu&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruk&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Sumer&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eridu&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.amazon.co.uk/372/dp/0140265740&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruk" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3593" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="727" RevisionGUID="3694fa99-8675-4d55-99e7-b268145eecf5" CreationDate="2015-05-17T13:19:27.353" UserId="29" Comment="added 589 characters in body" Text="The concept of [*mes*][1] refers to set of ordinances of decrees as defined by the gods:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **In Sumerian mythology, a me (Sumerian, conventionally pronounced [mɛ]) or ñe [ŋɛ] or parşu (Akkadian, [parsˤu]) is one of the decrees of the gods foundational to those social institutions**, religious practices, technologies, behaviors, mores, and human conditions that make civilization, as the Sumerians understood it, possible. They are fundamental to the Sumerian understanding of the relationship between humanity and the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kramer and Maier explain the concept of *mes*, but also the relationship of [*Inanna*][3] with them :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Another important concept in Sumerian theology, was that of me. The me were universal decrees of divine authority.** They are the invocations that spread arts, crafts, and civilization. **The me were assembled by Enlil in Ekur and given to Enki to guard and impart to the world**, beginning with Eridu, his center of worship. From there, he guards the me and imparts them on the people. He directs the me towards Ur and Meluhha and Dilmun, organizing the world with his decrees. Later, **Inanna comes to Enki and complains at having been given too little power from his decrees.** In a different text, she gets Enki drunk and he grants her more powers, arts, crafts, and attributes - a total of ninety-four me. **Inanna parts company with Enki to deliver the me to her cult center at Erech.** Enki recovers his wits and tries to recover the me from her, but she arrives safely in Erech with them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[(Kramer &amp; Maier 1989: pp. 38-68)][4]&lt;/sub&gt; &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Sumerian FAQ][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are over [*100 mes* but only 60 of them are known][6] to us because of the tables that were found, some of which are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1. **Godship**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2. **The exalted shrine**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 3. **The flood**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4. **Sexual intercourse**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 5. **Prostitution**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 6. **Art**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and are some times represented as physical objects:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Uruk, by the big apple tree, Dumuzi, the husband of Inanna, **was dressed in his shining me garments**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Descent of Inanna][7]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Let me note, that a possible interpretation of the myth is the transfer of hegemony from [Eridu][8] to [Uruk][9] in [Sumerian History][10]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eridu was long considered the **earliest city in southern Mesopotamia**, and is still today argued to be the oldest city in the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][11]&lt;/sub&gt; &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Leick, Gwendolyn (2002), &quot;Mesopotamia: The Invention of the City&quot;][12]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In addition to being one of the first cities, Uruk was the main force of urbanization during the Uruk period (4000–3200 BC). This period of 800 years **saw a shift from small, agricultural villages to a larger urban center** with a full-time bureaucracy, military, and stratified society.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][13]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_%28mythology%29&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_%28mythology%29&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inanna&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.amazon.com/Myths-Enki-Crafty-Samuel-Kramer/dp/0195055020&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/sumer-faq.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_%28mythology%29#List_of_mes&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://people.uncw.edu/deagona/myth/Descent%20Of%20Inanna.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eridu&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruk&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Sumer&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eridu&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.amazon.co.uk/372/dp/0140265740&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruk" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3595" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="727" RevisionGUID="c9d17756-a726-468d-83de-c02e8e9bb786" CreationDate="2015-05-17T14:53:03.993" UserId="29" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="The concept of [*mes*][1] refers to set of *ordinances* or *decrees* as defined by the gods:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **In Sumerian mythology, a me (Sumerian, conventionally pronounced [mɛ]) or ñe [ŋɛ] or parşu (Akkadian, [parsˤu]) is one of the decrees of the gods foundational to those social institutions**, religious practices, technologies, behaviors, mores, and human conditions that make civilization, as the Sumerians understood it, possible. They are fundamental to the Sumerian understanding of the relationship between humanity and the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kramer and Maier explain the concept of *mes*, but also the relationship of [*Inanna*][3] with them :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Another important concept in Sumerian theology, was that of me. The me were universal decrees of divine authority.** They are the invocations that spread arts, crafts, and civilization. **The me were assembled by Enlil in Ekur and given to Enki to guard and impart to the world**, beginning with Eridu, his center of worship. From there, he guards the me and imparts them on the people. He directs the me towards Ur and Meluhha and Dilmun, organizing the world with his decrees. Later, **Inanna comes to Enki and complains at having been given too little power from his decrees.** In a different text, she gets Enki drunk and he grants her more powers, arts, crafts, and attributes - a total of ninety-four me. **Inanna parts company with Enki to deliver the me to her cult center at Erech.** Enki recovers his wits and tries to recover the me from her, but she arrives safely in Erech with them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[(Kramer &amp; Maier 1989: pp. 38-68)][4]&lt;/sub&gt; &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Sumerian FAQ][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are over [*100 mes* but only 60 of them are known][6] to us because of the tables that were found, some of which are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1. **Godship**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2. **The exalted shrine**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 3. **The flood**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4. **Sexual intercourse**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 5. **Prostitution**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 6. **Art**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and are some times represented as physical objects:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Uruk, by the big apple tree, Dumuzi, the husband of Inanna, **was dressed in his shining me garments**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Descent of Inanna][7]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Let me note, that a possible interpretation of the myth is the transfer of hegemony from [Eridu][8] to [Uruk][9] in [Sumerian History][10]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eridu was long considered the **earliest city in southern Mesopotamia**, and is still today argued to be the oldest city in the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][11]&lt;/sub&gt; &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Leick, Gwendolyn (2002), &quot;Mesopotamia: The Invention of the City&quot;][12]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In addition to being one of the first cities, Uruk was the main force of urbanization during the Uruk period (4000–3200 BC). This period of 800 years **saw a shift from small, agricultural villages to a larger urban center** with a full-time bureaucracy, military, and stratified society.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][13]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_%28mythology%29&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_%28mythology%29&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inanna&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.amazon.com/Myths-Enki-Crafty-Samuel-Kramer/dp/0195055020&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/sumer-faq.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_%28mythology%29#List_of_mes&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://people.uncw.edu/deagona/myth/Descent%20Of%20Inanna.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eridu&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruk&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Sumer&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eridu&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.amazon.co.uk/372/dp/0140265740&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruk" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3597" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="729" RevisionGUID="eb741a9c-bf93-4a00-b694-6cb8b649788d" CreationDate="2015-05-17T15:51:22.167" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="Who were the beings that the Titans overthrew to gain power on Olympus? Did they even have a group name or were they just the first beings?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3598" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="729" RevisionGUID="eb741a9c-bf93-4a00-b694-6cb8b649788d" CreationDate="2015-05-17T15:51:22.167" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="Who were the beings that the Titans overthrew to gain power on Olympus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3599" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="729" RevisionGUID="eb741a9c-bf93-4a00-b694-6cb8b649788d" CreationDate="2015-05-17T15:51:22.167" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3600" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="730" RevisionGUID="dc0b11a2-d69a-44c8-90cc-28d6d339c6e9" CreationDate="2015-05-17T16:08:08.930" UserId="57" Text="The Titans overthrew the [primordials][1], the first beings that came into existence. More specifically, according to Hesiod the Titans, lead by [Cronos][2], castrated [Uranus][3] (personification of the sky) at the behest of [Gaia][4] (personification of the earth): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (ll. 147-163) And again, three other sons were born of Earth and Heaven, great and doughty beyond telling, Cottus and Briareos and Gyes, presumptuous children. From their shoulders sprang an hundred arms, not to be approached, and each had fifty heads upon his shoulders on their strong limbs, and irresistible was the stubborn strength that was in their great forms. For of all the children that were born of Earth and Heaven, these were the most terrible, and they were hated by their own father from the first.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And he used to hide them all away in a secret place of Earth so soon as each was born, and would not suffer them to come up into the light: **and Heaven rejoiced in his evil doing. But vast Earth groaned within, being straitened, and she made the element of grey flint and shaped a great sickle, and told her plan to her dear sons. And she spoke, cheering them, while she was vexed in her dear heart:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (ll. 164-166) **'My children, gotten of a sinful father, if you will obey me, we should punish the vile outrage of your father; for he first thought of doing shameful things.'**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (ll. 167-169) So she said; but fear seized them all, and none of them uttered a word. But great Cronos the wily took courage and answered his dear mother:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (ll. 170-172) `Mother, I will undertake to do this deed, for I reverence not our father of evil name, for he first thought of doing shameful things.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (ll. 173-175) So he said: and vast Earth rejoiced greatly in spirit, and set and hid him in an ambush, and put in his hands a jagged sickle, and revealed to him the whole plot.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (ll. 176-206) And Heaven came, bringing on night and longing for love, and he lay about Earth spreading himself full upon her (7).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Then the son from his ambush stretched forth his left hand and in his right took the great long sickle with jagged teeth, and swiftly lopped off his own father's members and cast them away to fall behind him. And not vainly did they fall from his hand**; for all the bloody drops that gushed forth Earth received, and as the seasons moved round she bare the strong Erinyes and the great Giants with gleaming armour, holding long spears in their hands and the Nymphs whom they call Meliae (8) all over the boundless earth. And so soon as he had cut off the members with flint and cast them from the land into the surging sea, they were swept away over the main a long time: and a white foam spread around them from the immortal flesh, and in it there grew a maiden. First she drew near holy Cythera, and from there, afterwards, she came to sea-girt Cyprus, and came forth an awful and lovely goddess, and grass grew up about her beneath her shapely feet. Her gods and men call Aphrodite, and the foam-born goddess and rich-crowned Cytherea, because she grew amid the foam, and Cytherea because she reached Cythera, and Cyprogenes because she was born in billowy Cyprus, and Philommedes (9) because sprang from the members. And with her went Eros, and comely Desire followed her at her birth at the first and as she went into the assembly of the gods. This honour she has from the beginning, and this is the portion allotted to her amongst men and undying gods, -- the whisperings of maidens and smiles and deceits with sweet delight and love and graciousness.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (ll. 207-210) But these sons whom be begot himself great Heaven used to call Titans (Strainers) in reproach, for he said that they strained and did presumptuously a fearful deed, and that vengeance for it would come afterwards.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Theogony of Hesiod, translated by Hugh G. Evelyn-White](http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_primordial_deities&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranus_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_(mythology)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3601" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="148" RevisionGUID="d0c37f9b-0beb-4bed-ba08-2d16a6f070fd" CreationDate="2015-05-17T16:44:09.043" UserId="29" Comment="added 40 characters in body" Text="The number `12` is used in most religions as something holy and perfect. In every religion you can see that the number twelve is always present in main events or facts:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;e.g.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* **Greek Mythology**: Labours of Hercules, the Dodecatheon and twelve Titans, according to Hesiod.&#xD;&#xA;* **Christianity**: The 12 Disciples of Christ&#xD;&#xA;* **Norse Mythology**: Odin had 12 sons&#xD;&#xA;* **Islam**:  There are twelve Imams, legitimate successors of the Islamic prophet.&#xD;&#xA;* **Judaism**: 12 tribes of Israel.&#xD;&#xA;* **Sumerian Mythology**: 12 Major Gods &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are way too many examples where 12 is used and I it's probably because `12` had a special place for ancient people, since the use of the [Duodecimal][1] and [Sexagesimal][2] systems was widespread at the time and it's actually the first systems used in arithmetics. I have found no reference (and I believe there isn't any) as to **why** it is deemed a special number in a religious essence, apart from the fact that it had many mathematical properties, such as being the first number with six divisors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The number 12 is a **highly respected and practical** number. It has **many factors for such a low number**, so it is one of the lowest easily-divisible numbers. Number 11 is not divisible, number 10 only has two factors (2 and 5) meaning that if you measure anything in tens, you can only divide it into either halves or pairs. Number 9 only divides into 3, number 8 only into 2 and 4, number 7 is a prime number with no factors, number 6 only breaks down into half or thirds, number 5 is a prime, you can only halve number 4 or 2, and 3 and 1 don't divide and are so small you wouldn't want to measure things in them, anyway. **Number 12, however, divides into 6, 4, 3 and 2, giving it a large number of practical uses where things have to be divided up into whole numbers, from calendars to clocks.** As a result of all these factors, mathematicians get excited about the number 12 and apparently, they always have done! For example, **Pythagoras, the classical mathematics genius, teacher, and leader of a pagan religious movement, taught that the number 12 had divine, profound mystical meaning.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[The Divine Number 12][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duodecimal&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexagesimal&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.humanreligions.info/twelve.html#Maths" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3602" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="70" RevisionGUID="fd2e90f2-92bd-46a8-a4ec-2e9fab13fdd9" CreationDate="2015-05-17T16:44:57.057" UserId="29" Comment="added 45 characters in body" Text="Zeus did that. Hermes was the son of Zeus, but he grew up very quickly&#xD;&#xA; and one day he decided to seek out adventure. The first thing he &#xD;&#xA;thought of was to steal Apollon's oxes and he actually did that. Apollon didn't know who it was at first, but he soon found out that Hermes stole the oxes and took Hermes&#xD;&#xA;to Olympus on trial. Hermes confessed the crime and made a deal with Zeus which&#xD;&#xA;made him the messenger of the gods. After that, Zeus gave Hermes&#xD;&#xA;a wand, a round hat and the Sandals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When Zeus called Hermes to Olympus to chide him for stealing and lying, Hermes promised he would never again lie if Zeus named him as his messenger and herald. Zeus quickly accepted this offer, and told his son that his duties would also include protecting travelers, promoting trade, and negotiating treaties.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;To ensure rapid delivery of his messages, Zeus presented Hermes with golden winged sandals as swift as the wind&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[The Little Rascal: Hermes][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.infoplease.com/cig/mythology/little-rascal-hermes.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3603" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="418" RevisionGUID="e1bbc61f-6ec9-4fb8-a74a-604c614b6e51" CreationDate="2015-05-17T16:46:42.537" UserId="29" Comment="added 59 characters in body" Text="There is no direct link between [Chiron][1] and [Charon][2]. That similarity means nothing; to have a direct link through their names, their meanings would have to be similar, not just the letters of which they consist.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Το όνομα Χάρων πιθανότατα προέρχεται από το επίθετο &quot;χάρων&quot;, που αποτελεί ποιητικό τύπο του αρχαίου χαροπός/ -ωπός &lt; ρήμα χαίρω. Δεδομένου ότι ο Χάρων ήταν χθόνια θεότητα, η απευθείας συσχέτιση με το ρήμα χαίρω οφείλεται σε ευφημισμό.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[el.Wikipedia][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This Greek text implies that [Charon][4] is named after the verb `Χαίρω`, which means to be glad. His name is essentially a euphemism. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Χείρων (από το χειρ) είναι αυτός που είναι ικανός στα χέρια, αυτός που τα χειρίζεται καλά. Και φυσικά ένας γιατρός τα χρησιμοποιεί για να γιατρεύει. Για να αλείφει βότανα. Για να διορθώνει τα σπασίματα. Για να κλείνει τις πληγές. Δηλαδή χειροπράκτης ή και χειρούργος. Τέτοιος λοιπόν γιατρός ήταν ο μέγιστος Χείρων. Με τη βοήθεια των χεριών του γιάτρευε κάθε αρρώστια.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Κένταυροι][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Τhis Greek text implies that `Χείρων` is someone adept at using his hands (hand is `Χείρ` in ancient Greek), since [Chiron][6] was a doctor who would heal every sickness with his medicine.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;I also want to note that `-ων` is a suffix of many ancient Greek names ([Chiron][7] is Χείρ**ων** and [Charon][8] is Χάρ**ων** in Greek), so you could not suppose a link between the two judging from such a little amount of letters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiron&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charon_%28mythology%29&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A7%CE%AC%CF%81%CF%89%CE%BD_%28%CE%BC%CF%85%CE%B8%CE%BF%CE%BB%CE%BF%CE%B3%CE%AF%CE%B1%29&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charon_%28mythology%29&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.pame.gr/istoria/mithologia/kentavroi.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiron&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiron&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charon_%28mythology%29" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3604" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="729" RevisionGUID="be4c319c-d585-4eab-a8fe-73d07f16cf90" CreationDate="2015-05-17T16:48:36.347" UserDisplayName="user28" Comment="added 137 characters in body" Text="Who were the beings that the Titans overthrew to gain power on Olympus?  In the book of Encyclopedia of Mythology by Eric Flaum it discusses how Mother Earth conspired with Cronus to overthrow Uranus who was in power at the time. Who were these other beings before the Titans?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3605" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="44" RevisionGUID="0f8c2bd2-57b5-42a3-b3a1-0edfea14ee58" CreationDate="2015-05-17T16:49:09.147" UserId="29" Comment="added 207 characters in body" Text="&gt; Πανδώρα (παν + δώρα): the all-gifted&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Etymolgoy of Pandora][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The myth of Pandora (the first mortal woman) is misinterpreted. I've seen many modern books wrongly claiming that hope did escape the box and, despite all evil that was spread throughout the land, people still hoped that better days would soon come. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod is the one that refers to the box (it was not a box actually, but more like a jar) and claims that Pandora (actually referring to women) is the root of all evil, because she would hurt the man with her beauty and lies.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;For from her is the descent of female women       &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;a great pain for mortals, living with men, &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;companions not of destructive Poverty but of Plenty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Theogony][2]&lt;sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Pandora opened the box, all evil escaped it, but Pandora (under Zeus' will) held hope inside the jar by closing the lid. Isiodus doesn't say why hope stayed into the jar, but one (judging from Isiodus' view on women) can imply that  he meant by that, that the men would have no hope against women, for without her, they would die alone, but with her, they'd have to withstand their cunning nature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Judging by this, which is how Hesiod closes [Theogony][3]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thus it is not possible to escape the mind of Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Theogony][4]&lt;sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; an angry Zeus decides to give humanity a punishing gift to compensate for the boon they had been given. He commands Hephaestus to mold from earth the first woman, a &quot;beautiful evil&quot; whose descendants would torment the human race&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One can see what Hesiod wanted to say in the end.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Pandora&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.msu.edu/~tyrrell/theogon.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theogony&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.msu.edu/~tyrrell/theogon.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora#Hesiod" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3606" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="422" RevisionGUID="ca42ddca-b7b8-4994-9c29-9b8fa1fe8bd0" CreationDate="2015-05-17T16:50:08.833" UserId="29" Comment="added 130 characters in body" Text="As said already, your story is taken from [Þrymskviða][1]. There's a retelling of the story named [The Children of Odin][2], which refers to that in a more easily comprehensible way:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The actual story does not say that Loki stole the hammer from Thor. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Then when they were far from Jötunheim Thor missed Miölnir, missed the hammer that was the defence of Asgard and the help of the Gods. He could not remember how or where he had mislaid it. Loki's thoughts went toward Thrym, that stupid Giant who yet had cunning streaks in him. Thor, who had lost the hammer that he had sworn never to let out of his sight, did not know what to do.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;But Loki thought it would be worth while to see if Thrym knew anything about it. He went first to Asgard.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt; [The Children of Odin][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By having a discussion with Thrym, the hammer's location is identified:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Ha, Loki, Shape-changer,&quot; said Thrym, &quot;you are there! But all your watching will not help you to find Miölnir.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;I have buried Thor's hammer eight miles deep in the earth. Find it if you can. It is below the caves of the Dwarfs.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt; [The Children of Odin][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;During the feast, where Thor and Loki are disguised, the Hammer is presented to `Thor`.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Then Thrym, the stupidest of the Giants, rose up and brought Miölnir, the defence of Asgard, into the feasting hall. Thor could hardly restrain himself from springing up and seizing it from the Giant. But Loki was able to keep him still. Thrym brought over the hammer and put the handle into the hands of her whom he thought was his bride. Thor's hands closed on his hammer. Instantly he stood up. The veil fell off him. His countenance and his blazing eyes were seen by all. He struck one blow on the wall of the house. Down it crashed. Then Thor went striding out of the ruin with Loki beside him, while within the Giants bellowed as the roof and walls fell down on them. And so was Miölnir, the defence of Asgard, lost and won back.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt; [The Children of Odin][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Erymskvi%C3%B0a&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0025VKZFM/internetsacredte" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3607" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="492" RevisionGUID="4c1a821c-36f4-44e5-80d4-ca99ab75bd9e" CreationDate="2015-05-17T16:55:12.277" UserId="29" Comment="deleted 16 characters in body" Text="There is no clear explanation on this and opinions seem to vary, some of which are the following:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The name comes from a Giant called `Πάλλαντας` (**Pallantas**), whom Athena killed during the Titanomachy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Athena got that name because she was born out of Zeus' head by throbbing her spear.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The name is attributed to a friend of Athena, whom she killed accidentally, so she was named after her, in terms of recognition and so that she could be remembered.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Kontos Aleksandros**, a linguist and sociologist, believes the following interpretation to be the most precise:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The main significance of the verb `Πάλλω` is to shake a lottery, until the ejection of the results, which would be the people to take place as judges in the supreme court of Ancient Greece. Since it was feared that there would be a fraud in who would get selected, the people is charge of the draw would throb the lottery, until the names of the judges came out, due to that movement of the lottery jar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Οι προσωνυμίες της Αθηνάς][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The primary importance therefore of **Pallas** is the motion that someone does in a legatee to achieve the draw. And **Pallas** means the custodian of the draw, the custodian of the Republic. And **Pallas** Athena was primarily the protector of democratic Athens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Οι προσωνυμίες της Αθηνάς][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus informs us about Pallas, Athena's friend:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;They say that when Athena was born she was brought up by Triton,  who had a daughter Pallas; and that both girls practised the arts of war, but that once on a time they fell out; and when Pallas was about to strike a blow, Zeus in fear interposed the aegis, and Pallas, being startled, looked up, and so fell wounded by Athena. And being exceedingly grieved for her, Athena made a wooden image in her likeness, and wrapped the aegis, which she had feared, about the breast of it, and set it up beside Zeus and honored it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Apollodorus 3.12.3][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;More than one interpretations might be true in their own aspect. In the aspect of mythology, Apollodorus' version is correct. But in the aspect of reality (why the people who worshipped Athena named her **Pallas** and why the had to find a myth that gave her that name), Kontos Aleksandros' analysis might be true as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://lykomidis.wordpress.com/2010/01/17/%CE%BF%CE%B9-%CF%80%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%83%CF%89%CE%BD%CF%85%CE%BC%CE%AF%CE%B5%CF%82-%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82-%CE%B8%CE%B5%CE%AC%CF%82-%CE%B1%CE%B8%CE%B7%CE%BD%CE%AC%CF%82/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus3.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3608" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="726" RevisionGUID="5dd03297-60b4-42ee-9d1b-5e076a678a35" CreationDate="2015-05-17T16:55:23.970" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="deleted 10 characters in body" Text="In [The Descent of Inanna](http://people.uncw.edu/deagona/myth/Descent%20Of%20Inanna.pdf), the word &quot;me&quot; is used as a noun in several places:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; With the me in her possession, she prepared herself: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;She who receives the me of the underworld does not return. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What does the word &quot;me&quot; mean in this context?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3609" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="475" RevisionGUID="e34d1b9f-20a5-47b1-b806-43e621b8c8fa" CreationDate="2015-05-17T16:58:02.560" UserId="29" Comment="added 79 characters in body" Text="The gods die during the battle together with the evil and the two people are left to repopulate the world. [The Children of Odin][1] addresses the event in an easily comprehensible way:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; What said Odin to the Gods and to the Champions who surrounded him?&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&quot;We will give our lives and let our world be destroyed, but we will&#xD;&#xA;&gt; battle so that these evil powers will not live after us.&quot;** Out of Hel's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ship sprang Fenrir the Wolf. His mouth gaped; his lower jaw hung&#xD;&#xA;&gt; against the earth, and his upper jaw scraped the sky. Against the Wolf&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Odin All-Father fought. Thor might not aid him, for Thor had now to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; encounter Jörmungand, the monstrous serpent.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; By Fenrir the Wolf **Odin was slain**. But the younger Gods were now&#xD;&#xA;&gt; advancing to the battle; and Vidar, the Silent God, came face to face&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with Fenrir. He laid his foot on the Wolf's lower jaw, that foot that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; had on the sandal made of all the scraps of leather that shoemakers&#xD;&#xA;&gt; had laid by for him, and with his hands he seized the upper jaw and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tore his gullet. **Thus died Fenrir**, the fiercest of all the enemies of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Gods.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jörmungand, the monstrous serpent, would have overwhelmed all with the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; venom he was ready to pour forth. But Thor sprang forward and crushed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him with a stroke of his hammer Miölnir. **Then Thor stepped back nine&#xD;&#xA;&gt; paces. But the serpent blew his venom over him, and blinded and choked&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and burnt, Thor, the World's Defender, perished.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Loki sprang from his ship and strove with Heimdall, the Warder of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Rainbow Bridge and the Watcher for the Gods. **Loki slew Heimdall and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was slain by him.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Bravely fought Tyr, the God who had sacrificed his swordhand for the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; binding of the Wolf. Bravely he fought, and many of the powers of evil&#xD;&#xA;&gt; perished by his strong left hand. **But Garm, the hound with bloody&#xD;&#xA;&gt; jaws, slew Tyr.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[The Children of Odin][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The text goes on many deaths take place. Together with the gods, the evil also dies, which is what Odin was striving for.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After [Ragnarok][3]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Deep in a wood two of human kind were left; the fire of Surtur did not touch them; they slept, and when they wakened the world was green and beautiful again. These two fed on the dews of the morning; a woman and a man they were, Lif and Lifthrasir. They walked abroad in the world, and from them and from their children came the men and women who spread themselves over the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[The Children of Odin][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0025VKZFM/?tag=stackoverfl08-20&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://sacred-texts.com/neu/ice/coo/coo36.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar%C3%B6k" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3610" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="100" RevisionGUID="ead68872-2c5f-4d36-be0d-def40e75722c" CreationDate="2015-05-17T16:58:47.197" UserId="29" Comment="added 11 characters in body" Text="The ancient Greek city-states were connected through different customs, although they are often seen as discrete entities. So, even before the city-states started merging with one another, there were common customs and common beliefs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since, as you are implying, there was no central authority that &quot;preached&quot; a certain belief, I think you can expect that pantheon of gods would vary in different locations, due to the importance of some gods for whatever reason (e.g. Athena was worshipped greatly in Athens and you can tell that because Parthenon was dedicated to her). There were variations of the Dodecatheon tracing back in older times:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While the number was fixed at twelve, there was considerable variation as to which deities were included. The Dodekatheon of Herodorus of Heraclea included Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Hermes, Athena, Apollo, Alpheus, Cronus, Rhea and the Charites. The historian Herodotus states that Heracles was included as one of the Twelve by some. At Kos, Heracles and Dionysus are added to the Twelve, and Ares and Hephaestus are not. For Pindar, the Bibliotheca, and Herodorus, Heracles is not one of the Twelve Gods, but the one who established their cult. Lucian (2nd century AD) includes Heracles and Asclepius as members of the Twelve, without explaining which two had to give way for them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Olympians &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The pantheon (not necessarily the Dodecatheon) could also vary geographically, depending on the regional landscape and included gods such as rivers, who were worshipped greatly due to their importance to the survival and well-being of people living in the nearby regions. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;P.S. The `Dodecatheon` is a greek word and denotes the set of the twelve main gods." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3611" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="731" RevisionGUID="8cb5c419-ac7e-44ec-b267-8aff98d890a7" CreationDate="2015-05-17T17:07:34.487" UserId="183" Text="In [*Vita Merlini*](http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/merlini.html), Merlin goes quite mad for a while, speaking of Britain in the past and remarking on nature and religion. He makes grand prophecies of what will happen in the future - he is, after all, a prophet. All of this happens while he resides in the woods, in a house with 70 windows and doors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After he regains his sanity, his sister, Ganieda, and his friends Maeldin and Taliesin decide to turn their backs on the outside and world and live with him in his house in the woods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The chieftains departed. The three remained, and with them a fourth--Ganieda, the prophet's sister, who had finally taken to their way of life also. She had been leading a retired life since the death of the king. She who till now had been the queen of a large nation under the appointed law, now found nothing pleasanter than living in the woods with her brother. She, too, was from time to time exalted in spirit to sing often of the future of the kingdom. So, one day when she stood in her brother's hall and gazed at the house and at its windows glittering in the sun, she uttered these dark sayings out of a dark heart:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;I see the city of Oxford filled with helmeted men, and holy men and holy bishops bound on the decision of the Council.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; . . .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; She did not end with this, and her friends listened in amazement.  So also did her brother, who after a while went up to her and congratulated her in kindly words, saying, &quot;Sister, is it you the spirit has willed to foretell the future? He has curbed my tongue and closed my book. Then this task is given to you. Be glad of it, and under my authority declare everything faithfully.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Throughout the whole story, Merlin seems to have attributed many things in the world that have helped him to God. Yet his remark at the end - about &quot;the spirit&quot; - seems a bit cryptic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who does Merlin attribute his - and his sister's - gift of prophecy to? Is it God, or something else (perhaps the same being who caused his madness, leading him to the woods)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3612" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="731" RevisionGUID="8cb5c419-ac7e-44ec-b267-8aff98d890a7" CreationDate="2015-05-17T17:07:34.487" UserId="183" Text="In Vita Merlini, what did Merlin attribute his power of prophecy to?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3613" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="731" RevisionGUID="8cb5c419-ac7e-44ec-b267-8aff98d890a7" CreationDate="2015-05-17T17:07:34.487" UserId="183" Text="|welsh|arthurian|merlin|vita-merlini|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3614" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="382" RevisionGUID="448b483a-7f2c-4221-935e-5d4968e53e4d" CreationDate="2015-05-17T17:27:21.393" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 9 characters in body" Text="The two human survivors are [Lif and Lifthrasir](http://norse-mythology.org/lif-lifthrasir/). They live through Ragnarök by [hiding in Yggdrasil](http://www.viking-mythology.com/ragnarok.php) before the great battles, supposedly [in Hoddmimir's wood](http://www.timelessmyths.com/norse/ragnarok.html#NewAge). Apparently, [Vafthrudnir told this to Odin](http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/norse-mythology.php?deity=RAGNAROK) in a prophecy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They are mentioned in verse 45 of [*Vafþrúðnismál*](http://www.heimskringla.no/wiki/Vaf%C3%BEr%C3%BA%C3%B0nism%C3%A1l):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Líf ok Lifþrasir,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;br&gt;en þau leynask munu&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;br&gt;í holti Hoddmímis;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;br&gt;morgindöggvar&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;br&gt;þau sér at mat hafa,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; en þaðan af aldir alask.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't know Icelandic, but [this answer](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/131/how-is-the-hoddm%c3%admis-holt-able-to-protect-humans-from-ragnar%c3%b6k/271#271) gives me&#xD;&#xA;&gt;45. Lif and Lifthrasir&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; lie hidden&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; in the grove of Hoard-Mimir;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; the morning dews&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; they shall have as meat,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; from them generations will spring.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;source: http://www.germanicmythology.com/PoeticEdda/GRM27.html&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This verse is the source of the prophecy to Odin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems that the two humans were, though prophesied, simply random people who happened to find a safe (and sacred) place to hide.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the reasons why Yggdrasil was safe, see http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/131/how-is-the-hoddm%c3%admis-holt-able-to-protect-humans-from-ragnar%c3%b6k?lq=1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3615" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="718" RevisionGUID="fc0ad636-e355-40e5-8522-d7bb0db73f5b" CreationDate="2015-05-17T17:31:19.093" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 125 characters in body" Text="Throughout the story, it's very clear that one &quot;power&quot; is responsible for the events occurring to Manawydon and his friends:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'God knows,' said the other 'your counsel to go into the caer is not good. We did not see this caer here ever before. If you would follow my counsel, you would not go in. Whoever put enchantment on this land, has also made the caer appear here.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(All quotes are from the source cited in the question)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Part of the enchantment is that the character's land becomes deserted, and when the bishop (and the priest and the scholar) visit, &quot;It had been all of seven years since he had seen man or beast - other than the four people who had been together (until  two had been lost).&quot; Since the visitors are concerned with saving one of the creatures responsible for the devastation of Manawydon's land, it doesn't take a genius to guess that they had something to do with the other enchantments.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Don't forget that there's intuition going on here: these characters are in a magical setting and are familiar with magic." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3616" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="732" RevisionGUID="9f6fc919-59ce-4b71-a1c4-570ee7b7920c" CreationDate="2015-05-17T17:35:47.643" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3617" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="733" RevisionGUID="ebbe1e9f-23a5-4686-b423-90d01f2ff29e" CreationDate="2015-05-17T17:35:47.643" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3618" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="732" RevisionGUID="4dbed8e8-a8db-42c7-9153-126e931f8e1f" CreationDate="2015-05-17T17:43:15.983" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 33 characters in body" Text="A Greek epic attributed to Homer." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3619" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="732" RevisionGUID="4dbed8e8-a8db-42c7-9153-126e931f8e1f" CreationDate="2015-05-17T17:43:15.983" Comment="Proposed by 62 approved by 183, 29 edit id of 193" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3620" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="733" RevisionGUID="b7d93370-1033-4625-8760-6f3458f9d651" CreationDate="2015-05-17T17:43:22.733" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 33 characters in body" Text="A Greek epic attributed to Homer." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3621" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="733" RevisionGUID="b7d93370-1033-4625-8760-6f3458f9d651" CreationDate="2015-05-17T17:43:22.733" Comment="Proposed by 62 approved by 183, 29 edit id of 194" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3622" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="727" RevisionGUID="5a18a9e5-d2a3-45a5-b658-961476cbf601" CreationDate="2015-05-17T17:56:43.620" UserId="29" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="##The concept of [*mes*][1] refers to set of *ordinances* or *decrees* as defined by the gods:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **In Sumerian mythology, a me (Sumerian, conventionally pronounced [mɛ]) or ñe [ŋɛ] or parşu (Akkadian, [parsˤu]) is one of the decrees of the gods foundational to those social institutions**, religious practices, technologies, behaviors, mores, and human conditions that make civilization, as the Sumerians understood it, possible. They are fundamental to the Sumerian understanding of the relationship between humanity and the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kramer and Maier explain the concept of *mes*, but also the relationship of [*Inanna*][3] with them :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Another important concept in Sumerian theology, was that of me. The me were universal decrees of divine authority.** They are the invocations that spread arts, crafts, and civilization. **The me were assembled by Enlil in Ekur and given to Enki to guard and impart to the world**, beginning with Eridu, his center of worship. From there, he guards the me and imparts them on the people. He directs the me towards Ur and Meluhha and Dilmun, organizing the world with his decrees. Later, **Inanna comes to Enki and complains at having been given too little power from his decrees.** In a different text, she gets Enki drunk and he grants her more powers, arts, crafts, and attributes - a total of ninety-four me. **Inanna parts company with Enki to deliver the me to her cult center at Erech.** Enki recovers his wits and tries to recover the me from her, but she arrives safely in Erech with them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[(Kramer &amp; Maier 1989: pp. 38-68)][4]&lt;/sub&gt; &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Sumerian FAQ][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are over [**100 mes but only 60 of them are known**][6] to us because of the tables that were found, some of which are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1. **Godship**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2. **The exalted shrine**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 3. **The flood**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4. **Sexual intercourse**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 5. **Prostitution**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 6. **Art**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and are some times represented as physical objects:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Uruk, by the big apple tree, Dumuzi, the husband of Inanna, **was dressed in his shining me garments**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Descent of Inanna][7]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Let me note, that a possible interpretation of the myth is the transfer of hegemony from [Eridu][8] to [Uruk][9] in [Sumerian History][10]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eridu was long considered the **earliest city in southern Mesopotamia**, and is still today argued to be the oldest city in the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][11]&lt;/sub&gt; &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Leick, Gwendolyn (2002), &quot;Mesopotamia: The Invention of the City&quot;][12]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In addition to being one of the first cities, Uruk was the main force of urbanization during the Uruk period (4000–3200 BC). This period of 800 years **saw a shift from small, agricultural villages to a larger urban center** with a full-time bureaucracy, military, and stratified society.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][13]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_%28mythology%29&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_%28mythology%29&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inanna&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.amazon.com/Myths-Enki-Crafty-Samuel-Kramer/dp/0195055020&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/sumer-faq.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_%28mythology%29#List_of_mes&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://people.uncw.edu/deagona/myth/Descent%20Of%20Inanna.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eridu&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruk&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Sumer&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eridu&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.amazon.co.uk/372/dp/0140265740&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruk" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3631" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="713" RevisionGUID="70409492-eff6-41ee-9cd9-63884b84720f" CreationDate="2015-05-17T20:19:24.483" UserId="42" Comment="added 112 characters in body" Text="The Descent of Inanna (Ishtar) was unearthed from 1889 - 1900, but as far as I can tell, it wasn't really considered that well reconstructed until around the 1940s.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I will be using [Wolkstein and Kramer's translation](http://www.amazon.com/Inanna-Queen-Heaven-Earth-Stories/dp/0060908548) of the text, published in 1983.  Both because it's excellent and well-explained, and because it's the one sitting on my desk.  [Full text here.](http://people.uncw.edu/deagona/myth/Descent%20Of%20Inanna.pdf)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, we could take Inanna (Ishtar) at her word.  Her overt reason is given:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Inanna answered:  &#xD;&#xA;&quot;Because . . . of my older sister, Ereshkigal,  &#xD;&#xA;Her husband, Gugulanna, the Bull of Heaven, has died.  &#xD;&#xA;I have come to witness the funeral rites.  &#xD;&#xA;Let the beer of his funeral rites be poured into the cup.  &#xD;&#xA;Let it be done.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That, however, is just the excuse she gives at the gate.  It doesn't seem likely this is her real reason for the trip.  More likely the real reason is shown here:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; From the Great Above she opened her ear to the Great Below.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; From the Great Above the goddess opened her ear to the Great Below.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; From the Great Above Inanna opened her ear to the Great Below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which gives us the hint that she has heard the Great Below, the underworld, in some way.  Wolkstein's explanations, however, give us more to go on:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Inanna is the Queen of Heaven and Earth, but she does not know the underworld.  Until her ear opens to the Great Below, her understanding is necessarily limited.  In Sumerian, the word for ear and wisdom is the same ... In order to fully appreciate or &quot;know&quot;  what is said or meant, a great understanding is needed - an understanding of all things.  It is the Great Below, and knowledge of death and rebirth, life and stasis, that will make Inanna an &quot;Honored Counselor&quot; and a guide to the land.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So Inanna, already powerful and knowledgeable of Heaven and Earth, needs to acquire knowledge of death and the underworld to be complete in her wisdom.  This is further supported later, from the statement of Enlil, when hearing that Inanna has not returned from the underworld:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;My daughter craved the Great Above.  &#xD;&#xA;Inanna craved the Great Below.  &#xD;&#xA;She who receives the *me* of the underworld does not return.  &#xD;&#xA;She who goes to the Dark City stays there.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here Enlil (and later, Nanna, in an identical statement) states that Inanna has gone seeking the *me* of the underworld.  [*me* is a tricky word](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/726/what-is-the-meaning-of-the-word-me-in-the-descent-of-inanna) that most translators refuse to translate, and too much can be said about it to address completely here.  Suffice to say, the *me* represent knowledge and wisdom.  So, the gods know that she has gone seeking that knowledge that can only be gained in the underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To go just one more step, a *very popular* interpretation of the text is through a Jungian lens.  Just to hit the main points very briefly.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The goal of gaining wisdom of the underworld, to complement the wisdom of the heavens and of the earth, speaks of Inanna becoming complete, but this interpretation views it, instead of her completing her body of knowledge, she is completing herself, developing into a *whole* person (goddess).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this light, we see Inanna and her sister Ereshkigal as part of the same whole person.  In order to become complete, Inanna must become vulnerable, and face the dark side of herself (Ereshkigal), die and be reborn.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Inanna abandons her temples on the way to the underworld, and has to leave her crown, robe and other vestments (also *me*, like I said, complicated) at the gates of the underworld.  She arrives naked, powerless and vulnerable.  The death and rebirth are fairly clear to be read, but of particular interest is that after Inanna's death, and preparing for rebirth, Ereshkigal is in pain &quot;With the cries of a woman about to give birth.&quot;  Which does rather speak to the interpretation of being reborn from her darker half." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3634" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="727" RevisionGUID="c45b5afb-ab43-4966-9e16-b85ebe27e316" CreationDate="2015-05-17T22:31:23.953" UserId="29" Comment="deleted 21 characters in body" Text="##The concept of [*mes*][1] refers to set of *ordinances* or *decrees* as defined by the gods:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **In Sumerian mythology, a me (Sumerian, conventionally pronounced [mɛ]) or ñe [ŋɛ] or parşu (Akkadian, [parsˤu]) is one of the decrees of the gods foundational to those social institutions**, religious practices, technologies, behaviors, mores, and human conditions that make civilization, as the Sumerians understood it, possible. They are fundamental to the Sumerian understanding of the relationship between humanity and the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kramer and Maier explain the concept of *mes*, but also the relationship of [*Inanna*][3] with them :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Another important concept in Sumerian theology, was that of me. The me were universal decrees of divine authority.** They are the invocations that spread arts, crafts, and civilization. **The me were assembled by Enlil in Ekur and given to Enki to guard and impart to the world**, beginning with Eridu, his center of worship. From there, he guards the me and imparts them on the people. He directs the me towards Ur and Meluhha and Dilmun, organizing the world with his decrees. Later, **Inanna comes to Enki and complains at having been given too little power from his decrees.** In a different text, she gets Enki drunk and he grants her more powers, arts, crafts, and attributes - a total of ninety-four me. **Inanna parts company with Enki to deliver the me to her cult center at Erech.** Enki recovers his wits and tries to recover the me from her, but she arrives safely in Erech with them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[(Kramer &amp; Maier 1989: pp. 38-68)][4]&lt;/sub&gt; &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Sumerian FAQ][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are over 100 mes (around 80 are known to us - 64 of them are listed [here][6]), some of which are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1. **Godship**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2. **The exalted shrine**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 3. **The flood**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4. **Sexual intercourse**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 5. **Prostitution**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 6. **Art**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and are some times represented as physical objects:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Uruk, by the big apple tree, Dumuzi, the husband of Inanna, **was dressed in his shining me garments**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Descent of Inanna][7]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Let me note, that a possible interpretation of the myth is the transfer of hegemony from [Eridu][8] to [Uruk][9] in [Sumerian History][10]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eridu was long considered the **earliest city in southern Mesopotamia**, and is still today argued to be the oldest city in the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][11]&lt;/sub&gt; &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Leick, Gwendolyn (2002), &quot;Mesopotamia: The Invention of the City&quot;][12]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In addition to being one of the first cities, Uruk was the main force of urbanization during the Uruk period (4000–3200 BC). This period of 800 years **saw a shift from small, agricultural villages to a larger urban center** with a full-time bureaucracy, military, and stratified society.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][13]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_%28mythology%29&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_%28mythology%29&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inanna&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.amazon.com/Myths-Enki-Crafty-Samuel-Kramer/dp/0195055020&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/sumer-faq.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_%28mythology%29#List_of_mes&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://people.uncw.edu/deagona/myth/Descent%20Of%20Inanna.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eridu&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruk&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Sumer&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eridu&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.amazon.co.uk/372/dp/0140265740&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruk" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3635" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="717" RevisionGUID="f716e289-d658-441e-8fed-e0ebda2deb51" CreationDate="2015-05-17T22:46:39.213" UserId="183" Comment="added 50 characters in body" Text="#Sásq'ets is a mythical creature. . . Sort of.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#Etymology and related names&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[*Sasquatch: Legend Meets Science*, by Jeff Meldrum](http://books.google.com/books?id=ggeQHFa5E7AC&amp;lpg=PA50&amp;dq=salish+sasquatch&amp;pg=PA50&amp;hl=en#v=onepage&amp;q=salish%20sasquatch&amp;f=false), says (emphasis mine):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The various tribes across North America have attached their own names to the entity. These names number more than sixty, but most generally make reference to a &quot;Wildman of the woods.&quot; In the 1920s, Canadian journalist J.W. Burns coined the term *Sasquatch* as a common denominator for the myriad of native names. ***Sasquatch* derives directly from the word &quot;*sésquac*.&quot;** The original word, in the dialect of the Stó:lò dialect of the Halkomelem language, is used by the Coast Sasqu Indians of the Frase Valley and parts of Vancouver Island, British Columbia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This](http://thelongestlistofthelongeststuffatthelongestdomainnameatlonglast.com/trivia10.html) translates &quot;sésquac&quot; as &quot;wild man.&quot; [This](http://www.bfro.net/gdb/show_FAQ.asp?id=584) has a passage curiously similar to the one in Meldrum's book:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The term &quot;sasquatch&quot; is an anglicized derivative of the word &quot;Sésquac&quot;, meaning &quot;wild man&quot;. The original word, in the Stó:lõ dialect of the Halkomelem language, is used by the Coast Salish Indians of the Fraser Valley and parts of Vancouver Island, British Columbia. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Indian tribes across North America have a total of more than sixty different terms for the sasquatch.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Strangely enough, Meldrum is not listed in the [&quot;Useful Links&quot;](http://www.bfro.net/gdb/show_FAQ.asp?id=588) section, though that should not be confused with sources.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A fairly detailed list of name related to the creature is given by [Ontario Sasquatch](http://www.ontariosasquatch.com/#/canadian-names-pg-1/4522683510). Most related words are simply translated as &quot;Sasquatch&quot; (or &quot;male Sasquatch&quot; or &quot;female Sasquatch&quot;), though the word &quot;Suhsq’uhtch&quot;, used by the Coast Salish people, is translated as &quot;men, covered with dark fur, more than eight feet tall, who leave footprints about twenty inches long.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Cowicham people gave the creatures the name &quot;Thumquas.&quot;](http://www.joejack.com/sasquatch.html). Interestingly enough, the Cowicham people do speak [Halkomelem](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halkomelem), though Wikipedia describes them as speaking a branch distinct from that of the Stó:lò.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the most tantalizing sources I could find about the mythology surrounding the name was from the article [&quot;Retired principal puts out second pre-teen novel&quot;, by Clyde Woolman (*Comox Valley Record*)](http://www.comoxvalleyrecord.com/entertainment/224265911.html) (emphasis mine):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It at least seems reasonably clear that the origin of the English word came from an Agassiz teacher in the 1920s **who heard the term sasq'ets from the Sts'ailes (Chehalis) people) who live in the area, which described a sollicum, a being of the natural and supernatural world.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The word &quot;sollicum&quot; does not seem to appear anywhere else related the Chehalis mythology - at least, nowhere that I could find.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[A page on SasquatchSighting.ca](http://sasquatchsighting.ca/the-legend-of-saskakaua-creek) claims (emphasis mine),&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **The legends of Sasquatch have been part of the Chehalis tribe for centuries. In fact, their oral history says that sasquatch are their mortal enemies.** And in their St:olo dialect the word Saskakaua roughly means “Place of the Wild Men”.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[*The Sunday Journal and Star*](http://www.bfro.net/GDB/ReportImages/article_bc_1934_NE_large.gif) says much the same thing. In the lower left-hand corner,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The existence of a troglodytic race inhabiting the mountains of British Columbia in many of the vast caves  is a tribal legend among the Chehalis Indians and those of the Skwah Reservation, near Chilliwack, in the Harrison Lake district, about a hundred miles east of Vancouver. Among the Indians the race has been known for centuries by the name &quot;Sasquatch,&quot; or hairy men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The article later says that legends date back &quot;at least three generations&quot; (this was written in 1934).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This](http://www.bigfootencounters.com/articles/sasq-ets.htm) also says&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The creature has a spiritual quality for the Chehalis--the spiritual and physical are closely connected in First Nations beliefs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It also says that First Nations people all over have legends based around the creature, and that rock paintings appear to have been made of them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I was not able to find anything about &quot;Thumquas,&quot; unfortunately.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One a side note, [the Quinalt people have a legend about a being known as &quot;Glue-Keek&quot;](http://www.bigfootencounters.com/articles/quinalt.htm). A Quinalt woman, Harvest Moon, tells the story (also given [here](http://www.sasquatchchronicles.com/bigfoot-believers/):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Harvest Moon is familiar with several native legends about Bigfoot. The Quinault woman works as a storyteller at the Lake Quinault Lodge and other resorts along the coast during the summer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; She tells the story of the Glue-Keek monster she learned from a Lummi elder and its ties to the creation of mosquitos. The monster frightens tribal members and prevents them from hunting and gathering food.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; His legs were as big as tree trunks, she said while swaying her hips and making arm and hand gestures during a recent storytelling presentation at the Lake Quinault Lodge. His skin was as tough as leather and his eyes had a hypnotic glow to them. The monster started chasing the women through the berry patch. He took his huge, big feet, knocking over every basket of berries, wasting them on the ground.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to the legend, warriors from various tribes gathered and vowed to kill the monster. They dug a hole, tricked Glue-Keek into falling into it and burned him. As Glue-Keek perished, he swore he would return to drink the villagers blood. As his ashes ascended into the air, they transformed into mosquitos." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3636" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="256" RevisionGUID="6fc33c19-b741-4954-887a-828ed19ac95a" CreationDate="2015-05-18T00:59:41.493" UserId="236" Comment="3" />
  <row Id="3638" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="463" RevisionGUID="3cb1e1df-79bd-4eac-a33f-d07890ba23a6" CreationDate="2015-05-18T03:24:11.290" UserId="79" Comment="edited title" Text="What is the difference between giants, Jotuns and trolls in Norse mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3639" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="735" RevisionGUID="46925b02-c239-4e8b-940b-286e3847f907" CreationDate="2015-05-18T04:48:20.840" UserId="79" Text="**There haven't been any myths which describes the relationship or stories of interaction between Fenrir and Jörmungandr.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This could be because, in *Gylfaginning*, it is described that Fenrir, Jörmungandr and Hel were just children when they were seperated.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;evil was to be expected from them, to begin with because of their mother's nature, but still worse because of their father's. **Then All-Father sent the gods to get the children and bring them to him. And when they came to him, he threw the serpent into that deep sea which lies round all lands**, and this serpent grew so that it lies in the midst of the ocean encircling all lands and bites on its own tail&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sub&gt;source: Faulkes, https://notendur.hi.is/eybjorn/ugm/hymir/hym22.html&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Fenrir is then bound with the chain Gleipner until the day of Ragnarök. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With Fenrir held bound by the chain and Jörmungandr lying deep in the ocean, until the time of Ragnarök, there were no possibilities or incidences of them meeting each other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;**Note:** I'm not sure if this counts, but in some versions of the story, it said that Fenrir and Jörmungandr enter the battle of Ragnarök together.&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3642" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="736" RevisionGUID="0ca09785-8c1a-4400-9d0d-d2784ab0967b" CreationDate="2015-05-18T15:12:14.293" UserId="11" Text="&gt; Does this story appear in Roman folklore?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#No.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Magnus Maximus was the emperor of the [**Western** Roman Empire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Roman_Empire) from 383-388 AD. The empire fell approximately 90-120 years later. For comparison, calling this story part of Roman Mythology would be a little bit like regarding the [Spanish-American War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish%E2%80%93American_War) as part of *&quot;American Mythology&quot;*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most of Roman folklore and mythology comes from stories like [Ovid's Metamorphoses - 8 AD](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphoses), [Virgil's Aeneid - ~25 BC](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneid), and [Livy's Ab Urbe Condita Libri - ~25 BC](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ab_Urbe_Condita_Libri_(Livy)). Note that this is hardly a comprehensive list.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, Magnus Maximus was too close to the fall of the Roman empire to be reasonably included in it's mythos; he was emperor after the Empire split in two. This is why it is a relevant myth for the [5th century newly rising Anglo-Saxons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_settlement_of_Britain), but not for the Romans themselves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Note: I have decided that Wikipedia is a sufficient for this answer as the facts contained herein are basic, widely accepted historic facts of the era.&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3643" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="736" RevisionGUID="018c61fb-e758-4401-b568-e0c9ce343b4f" CreationDate="2015-05-18T15:36:01.740" UserId="11" Comment="added 7 characters in body" Text="&gt; Does this story appear in Roman folklore?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#No.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Magnus Maximus was the emperor of the [**Western** Roman Empire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Roman_Empire) from 383-388 AD. The empire fell approximately 90-120 years later. For comparison, calling this story part of Roman Mythology would be a little bit like regarding the [Spanish-American War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish%E2%80%93American_War) as part of *&quot;American Mythology&quot;*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most of Roman folklore and mythology comes from stories like [Ovid's Metamorphoses - 8 AD](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphoses), [Virgil's Aeneid - ~25 BC](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneid), and [Livy's Ab Urbe Condita Libri - ~25 BC](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ab_Urbe_Condita_Libri_(Livy)). Note that this is hardly a comprehensive list.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, Magnus Maximus was too close to the fall of the Roman empire to be reasonably included in it's mythos; he was emperor after the Empire split in two. This is why it is a relevant myth for the [5th century newly rising Anglo-Saxons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_settlement_of_Britain), but not for the Romans themselves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Note: I have decided that Wikipedia is a sufficient source for this answer as the facts contained herein are basic, widely accepted historic facts of the era.&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3644" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="53" RevisionGUID="b407b76f-5c47-401f-8252-83cbf4ca0148" CreationDate="2015-05-18T17:43:03.427" UserId="42" Comment="Using the reformulated question in comments as the title, to better reflect the narrowed scope of the question." Text="What differences were there in Greek soldiers worship of Ares and Roman soldiers worship of Mars?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3648" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="738" RevisionGUID="97fdf3ff-f0d2-441e-bdfd-d584b7301e2d" CreationDate="2015-05-18T19:02:08.303" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="Who were the Cimmerians, the Hyperboreans, and the Ethiopians? Were they races of men or something else? The Cimmerians were lived in endless night while the Hyperboreans who lived across Ocean were exceedingly fortunate. In that race sickness and deathly old age had no part, and the Ethiopians the Gods held in such favor that they would sit with them ay joyful banquets in their halls. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3649" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="738" RevisionGUID="97fdf3ff-f0d2-441e-bdfd-d584b7301e2d" CreationDate="2015-05-18T19:02:08.303" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="Who were the Cimmerians, the Hyperboreans, and the Ethiopians? Were they races of men or something else?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3650" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="738" RevisionGUID="97fdf3ff-f0d2-441e-bdfd-d584b7301e2d" CreationDate="2015-05-18T19:02:08.303" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3651" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="738" RevisionGUID="248661e7-7020-4515-ad42-cd8079f48eab" CreationDate="2015-05-18T19:21:16.343" UserDisplayName="user28" Comment="added 96 characters in body" Text="Who were the Cimmerians, the Hyperboreans, and the Ethiopians? Were they races of men or something else? The Cimmerians were lived in endless night while the Hyperboreans who lived across Ocean were exceedingly fortunate. In that race sickness and deathly old age had no part, and the Ethiopians the Gods held in such favor that they would sit with them ay joyful banquets in their halls. They were supposed to exist before mankind came into existence so what sort of people were they?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3652" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="738" RevisionGUID="3e278628-e35b-43d8-a901-f3104a0ba70e" CreationDate="2015-05-18T19:57:05.890" UserDisplayName="user28" Comment="deleted 5 characters in body" Text="Who were the Cimmerians, the Hyperboreans, and the Ethiopians? Were they races of men or something else? The Cimmerians lived in endless night while the Hyperboreans who lived across Ocean were exceedingly fortunate. In that race sickness and deathly old age had no part, and the Ethiopians the Gods held in such favor that they would sit with them ay joyful banquets in their halls. They were supposed to exist before mankind came into existence so what sort of people were they?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3653" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="739" RevisionGUID="41a5166e-f157-4aa8-b6ae-20f7d50fa8d4" CreationDate="2015-05-18T20:25:36.170" UserId="292" Text="I can't speak for the Cimmerians, although I think they were a Central Asian people, but the Hyperboreans were legendary. They lived &quot;beyond the north wind&quot; in a [land in the extreme far north][1], with huge mountains in the frigid land to their south.&#xD;&#xA;They supposedly built the [second temple][2] at Delphi, from feathers and beeswax, and sent tribute to Apollo's temple at Delos.&#xD;&#xA;There has been much speculation that the Hyperboreans were the Norse or [British][3] people, and [this paper][4] also mentions the Balkans, because of the mountains. As a side note, however, there is a similar story about a place called Glaesisvellir at the very end of Jotunheim, the remote, barren land of the giants (jotuns), which appears in several sagas and the [History of the Danes][5]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Phylos/Hyperborea.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/Pausanias10A.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://historyplanet.wordpress.com/2010/08/24/hyperboria/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.escholar.manchester.ac.uk/api/datastream?publicationPid=uk-ac-man-scw:1m1174&amp;datastreamId=POST-PEER-REVIEW-PUBLISHERS-DOCUMENT.PDF&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&amp;rct=j&amp;q=&amp;esrc=s&amp;source=web&amp;cd=3&amp;ved=0CCMQFjAC&amp;url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F620633%2Fvpp_ec_%25C3%25BE%25C3%25A9r_verp_oc_%25C3%25A1_avstr_vega_throwing_up_in_%25C3%2586gir_s_hall&amp;ei=YkhaVcHFIuaHsQStoYHACA&amp;usg=AFQjCNENnl00LKRjMdmQVli5ZyEnSPpMfw&amp;sig2=LbJiTovTChZ63ZdX3hKF3Q&amp;bvm=bv.93564037,d.ZGU" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3654" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="738" RevisionGUID="0e639127-9339-4213-84ae-da1bb11d796f" CreationDate="2015-05-18T20:26:28.887" UserDisplayName="user28" Comment="added 42 characters in body" Text="Who were the Cimmerians, the Hyperboreans, and the Ethiopians? Were they races of men or something else? The Cimmerians lived in endless night while the Hyperboreans who lived across Ocean were exceedingly fortunate. In that race sickness and deathly old age had no part, and the Ethiopians the Gods held in such favor that they would sit with them ay joyful banquets in their halls. The myth speaks about them being races that were here before mankind so the question is Were they races of man or some other type of race?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3658" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="736" RevisionGUID="cfb88d9f-ae27-4863-ab1b-940647c53cab" CreationDate="2015-05-18T21:08:52.540" UserId="11" Comment="Linked the story emperor to the real emperor" Text="&gt; Does this story appear in Roman folklore?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#No.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Firstly, we should verify that the Magnus Maximus in the story is, in fact, the same Magnus Maximus as we see in recorded history.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This excerpt is from [*De Excidio et Conquestu Britanniae*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Excidio_et_Conquestu_Britanniae), a historical document from the 6th century AD (emphasis mine):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The tyranni.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 13. At length also, as thickets of tyrants were growing up and bursting forth soon into an immense forest, the island retained the Roman name, but not the morals and law; nay rather, casting forth a shoot of its own planting, **it sends out Maximus[20] to the two Gauls**, accompanied by a great crowd of followers, with an emperor's ensigns in addition, which he never worthily bore nor legitimately, but as one elected after the manner of a tyrant and amid a turbulent soldiery. This man, through cunning art rather than by valour, first attaches to his guilty rule certain neighbouring countries or provinces against the Roman power, by nets of perjury and falsehood. He then extends **one wing to Spain, the other to Italy,** fixing the throne of his iniquitous empire at Trier, and raged with such madness against his lords that he drove two legitimate emperors, the one from Rome, the other from a most pious life. Though fortified by hazardous deeds of so dangerous a character, it was not long ere **he lost his accursed head at Aquileia:** he who had in a way cut off the crowned heads of the empire of the whole world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Picts and Scots.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 14. After this, **Britain is robbed of all her armed soldiery, of her military supplies, of her rulers, cruel though they were, and of her vigorous youth who followed the footsteps of the above-mentioned tyrant and never returned.** Completely ignorant of the practice of war, she is, for the first time, open to be trampled upon by two foreign tribes of extreme cruelty, the Scots from the north-west, the Picts from the north; and for many years continues stunned and groaning.[21]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [*De Excidio et Conquestu Britanniae*, St. Gildas, 13-14](http://www.vortigernstudies.org.uk/arthist/vortigernquotesgil.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This sounds like the same story as *The Dream of Macsen Wledig* (emphasis mine):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And immediately the emperor set forth with his army. And these men were his guides. **Towards the Island of Britain they went over the sea and the deep. And he conquered the Island from Beli the son of Manogan,** and his sons, and drove them to the sea, and went forward even unto Arvon. And the emperor knew the land when he saw it. And when he beheld the castle of Aber Sain, &quot;Look yonder,&quot; said he, &quot;there is the castle wherein I saw the damsel whom I best love.&quot; And he went forward into the castle and into the hall, and there he saw Kynan the son of Eudav, and Adeon the son of Eudav, playing at chess. And he saw Eudav the son of Caradawc, sitting on a chair of ivory carving chessmen. And the maiden whom he had beheld in his sleep, he saw sitting on a chair of gold. &quot;Empress of Rome,&quot; said he, &quot;all hail!&quot; And the emperor threw his arms about her neck; and that night she became his bride.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt;...  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Seven years did the emperor tarry in this Island. Now, at that time, the men of Rome had a custom, that whatsoever emperor should remain in other lands more than seven years, should remain to his own overthrow, and should never return to Rome again.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt;So they made a new emperor. And this one wrote a letter of threat to Maxen. There was nought in the letter but only this. &quot;If thou comest, and if thou ever comest to Rome.&quot; And even unto Caerlleon came this letter to Maxen, and these tidings. Then sent he a letter to the man who styled himself emperor in Rome. There was nought in that letter also but only this. &quot;If I come to Rome, and if I come.&quot;   &#xD;&#xA;&gt;**And thereupon Maxen set forth towards Rome with his army, and vanquished France and Burgundy, and every land on the way, and sat down before the city of Rome.**   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Dream of Macscen Wledig](http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/macsen.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now that we know the historical figure is the same as the story's figure, we can talk a little about the history. Magnus Maximus was the emperor of the [**Western** Roman Empire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Roman_Empire) from 383-388 AD. The empire fell approximately 90-120 years later. For comparison, calling this story part of Roman Mythology would be a little bit like regarding the [Spanish-American War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish%E2%80%93American_War) as part of *&quot;American Mythology&quot;*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most of Roman folklore and mythology comes from stories like [Ovid's Metamorphoses - 8 AD](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphoses), [Virgil's Aeneid - ~25 BC](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneid), and [Livy's Ab Urbe Condita Libri - ~25 BC](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ab_Urbe_Condita_Libri_(Livy)). Note that this is hardly a comprehensive list.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, Magnus Maximus was too close to the fall of the Roman empire to be reasonably included in it's mythos; he was emperor after the Empire split in two. This is why it is a relevant myth for the [5th century newly rising Anglo-Saxons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_settlement_of_Britain), but not for the Romans themselves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Note: I have decided that Wikipedia is a sufficient source for this part of answer as the facts contained herein are basic, widely accepted historic facts of the era.&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3661" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="740" RevisionGUID="2405e479-f839-42f5-9b31-1764364f83ae" CreationDate="2015-05-18T23:56:47.837" UserId="183" Text="The ancient Greek gods lived on the famous [Mount Olympus](http://www.theoi.com/Kosmos/Olympos.html), which is [an actual mountain in Greece](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Olympus).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Romans borrowed quite a bit of mythology from the Greeks, so I at first assumed that the Roman gods lived somewhere similar, if not in the exact same place (though perhaps with the mountain renamed and moved somewhere else). Strangely enough, though, I have not been able to find any ancient accounts that make that claim - nor any mention of the home of the Roman gods at *all*, save for on a certain (rather untrustworthy and often inaccurate) question-and-answer site.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where did the Roman gods live? Were they said to live on Mount Olympus (or a similar place), or was their home somewhere else?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3662" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="740" RevisionGUID="2405e479-f839-42f5-9b31-1764364f83ae" CreationDate="2015-05-18T23:56:47.837" UserId="183" Text="Where did the Roman gods live?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3663" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="740" RevisionGUID="2405e479-f839-42f5-9b31-1764364f83ae" CreationDate="2015-05-18T23:56:47.837" UserId="183" Text="|roman|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3664" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="739" RevisionGUID="71dfe5db-7565-463c-b4ee-cbae334f90bf" CreationDate="2015-05-19T01:36:54.783" UserId="292" Comment="added 14 characters in body" Text="I can't speak for the Cimmerians, although I think they were a Central Asian people, but the Hyperboreans were legendary. They lived &quot;beyond the north wind&quot; in a [land in the extreme far north][1], with huge mountains in the frigid land to their south.&#xD;&#xA;They supposedly built the [second temple][2] at Delphi, from feathers and beeswax, and sent tribute to Apollo's temple at Delos.&#xD;&#xA;There has been much speculation that the Hyperboreans were the Norse or [British][3] people, and [this paper][4] also mentions the Balkans, because of the mountains. As a side note, however, there is a similar story in Norse myth about a place called Glaesisvellir at the very end of Jotunheim, the remote, barren land of the giants (jotuns), which appears in several sagas and the [History of the Danes][5]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Phylos/Hyperborea.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/Pausanias10A.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://historyplanet.wordpress.com/2010/08/24/hyperboria/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.escholar.manchester.ac.uk/api/datastream?publicationPid=uk-ac-man-scw:1m1174&amp;datastreamId=POST-PEER-REVIEW-PUBLISHERS-DOCUMENT.PDF&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&amp;rct=j&amp;q=&amp;esrc=s&amp;source=web&amp;cd=3&amp;ved=0CCMQFjAC&amp;url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F620633%2Fvpp_ec_%25C3%25BE%25C3%25A9r_verp_oc_%25C3%25A1_avstr_vega_throwing_up_in_%25C3%2586gir_s_hall&amp;ei=YkhaVcHFIuaHsQStoYHACA&amp;usg=AFQjCNENnl00LKRjMdmQVli5ZyEnSPpMfw&amp;sig2=LbJiTovTChZ63ZdX3hKF3Q&amp;bvm=bv.93564037,d.ZGU" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3668" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="742" RevisionGUID="e2385f9b-963d-4af8-8b99-b5e66e6a2e93" CreationDate="2015-05-19T04:20:13.123" UserId="108" Text="The Romans also thought them to live on [Mount Olympos](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Olympus). For instance, [Lucius Annaeus Seneca](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seneca_the_Younger) writes in his play *Hercules Furens* that, appealing to [Jupiter](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_%28mythology%29) for mercy, [Amphitryon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphitryon) prayed:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **[205]** *O magne **Olympi rector** et mundi arbiter,*  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Jam statue tandem gravibus aerumnis modum*&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [O mighty ruler of **Olympus**, judge of all the world,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; set now at length a limit to our crushing cares, an end to our disasters.](http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaHerculesFurens.html)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the rest of the play, Senea used Roman names to refer to the deities, such as [Juno](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juno_%28mythology%29) instead of [Hera](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hera):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **[213-4]** *Sequitur a primo statim infesta **Juno*** &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; From his very birth relentless Juno has pursued him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hence, the Roman equivalent of Olympos *is* Olympos." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3669" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="743" RevisionGUID="b7f8ed19-07c4-428e-9692-cee34599ac57" CreationDate="2015-05-19T04:26:37.723" UserId="42" Text="Many people have been said to have soul their soul to Satan.  Musicians such as Robert Johnson and Niccolò Paganini are said to have sold their soul for their musical virtuosity.  Faust provides another obvious example, as well as historic witch hunts which resulted in supposed signed documents detailing pacts with demons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Theophilus of Adana](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophilus_of_Adana) seems a likely early instance of this sort of story, and while the he is said to have died in the 6th century, I don't know much about the origin of the story of a bargain for his soul, or whether this is the earliest such story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Committing sins in pursuit of worldly wealth or fame can be seen as a figurative deal with the devil, of course, especially in combination with the biblical devil's role as a tempter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So where does the legend of a literal deal with the devil (or demon, e.g. Mephistopheles), be it written or oral, originate?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3670" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="743" RevisionGUID="b7f8ed19-07c4-428e-9692-cee34599ac57" CreationDate="2015-05-19T04:26:37.723" UserId="42" Text="Where does the story of selling one's soul to the devil originate?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3671" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="743" RevisionGUID="b7f8ed19-07c4-428e-9692-cee34599ac57" CreationDate="2015-05-19T04:26:37.723" UserId="42" Text="|christianity|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3675" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="743" RevisionGUID="0b338315-5dba-40fa-a31e-aa2cf08d931c" CreationDate="2015-05-19T05:42:49.300" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|christianity|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3677" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="744" RevisionGUID="d46abcd4-c2e0-4c1f-8ef6-e8e3ad16f37e" CreationDate="2015-05-19T07:13:10.917" UserId="57" Text="In the Babylonian creation mythos, the Enuma Elish, the gods are created as a result of the union between two primordial entities: [Apsu][1] (male) and [Tiamut][2] (female): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When in the height heaven was not named,  &#xD;&#xA;And the earth beneath did not yet bear a name,  &#xD;&#xA;And the primeval Apsu, who begat them,  &#xD;&#xA;And chaos, Tiamut, the mother of them both  &#xD;&#xA;Their waters were mingled together,  &#xD;&#xA;And no field was formed, no marsh was to be seen;  &#xD;&#xA;When of the gods none had been called into being,  &#xD;&#xA;And none bore a name, and no destinies were ordained;   &#xD;&#xA;Then were created the gods in the midst of heaven,  &#xD;&#xA;Lahmu and Lahamu were called into being...  &#xD;&#xA;Ages increased,...  &#xD;&#xA;Then Ansar and Kisar were created, and over them....  &#xD;&#xA;Long were the days, then there came forth.....  &#xD;&#xA;Anu, their son,...  &#xD;&#xA;Ansar and Anu...  &#xD;&#xA;And the god Anu...  &#xD;&#xA;Nudimmud, whom his fathers, his begetters.....  &#xD;&#xA;Abounding in all wisdom,...'  &#xD;&#xA;He was exceeding strong...  &#xD;&#xA;He had no rival -  &#xD;&#xA;Thus were established and were... the great gods.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [ENUMA ELISH, THE EPIC OF CREATION, L.W. King Translator](http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/enuma.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia has a helpful diagram of the [family tree of the Babylonian gods][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abzu&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_tree_of_the_Babylonian_gods" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3679" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="724" RevisionGUID="bfe36756-abf4-4ac8-9083-043184103bb8" CreationDate="2015-05-19T07:28:15.333" UserId="-1" Comment="104" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:62,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Christofian&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:29,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;naltipar&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:98,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;PythonMaster&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:18,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;El'endia Starman&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:91,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;congusbongus&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="3680" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="744" RevisionGUID="fc61b8c8-2142-4c43-a69a-6ade952e5155" CreationDate="2015-05-19T07:41:09.380" UserId="57" Comment="added 389 characters in body" Text="In the Babylonian creation mythos, the Enuma Elish, the gods are created as a result of the union between two primordial entities: [Apsu][1] (male) and [Tiamut][2] (female): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When in the height heaven was not named,  &#xD;&#xA;And the earth beneath did not yet bear a name,  &#xD;&#xA;And the primeval Apsu, who begat them,  &#xD;&#xA;And chaos, Tiamut, the mother of them both  &#xD;&#xA;Their waters were mingled together,  &#xD;&#xA;And no field was formed, no marsh was to be seen;  &#xD;&#xA;When of the gods none had been called into being,  &#xD;&#xA;And none bore a name, and no destinies were ordained;   &#xD;&#xA;Then were created the gods in the midst of heaven,  &#xD;&#xA;Lahmu and Lahamu were called into being...  &#xD;&#xA;Ages increased,...  &#xD;&#xA;Then Ansar and Kisar were created, and over them....  &#xD;&#xA;Long were the days, then there came forth.....  &#xD;&#xA;Anu, their son,...  &#xD;&#xA;Ansar and Anu...  &#xD;&#xA;And the god Anu...  &#xD;&#xA;Nudimmud, whom his fathers, his begetters.....  &#xD;&#xA;Abounding in all wisdom,...'  &#xD;&#xA;He was exceeding strong...  &#xD;&#xA;He had no rival -  &#xD;&#xA;Thus were established and were... the great gods.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [ENUMA ELISH, THE EPIC OF CREATION, L.W. King Translator](http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/enuma.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later in the epic, Apsu wishes to kill his offsprings (for being a bit too noisy), which results in him being killed by his grandson [Ea (aka Enki)][3], who then becomes leader of the pantheon. The epic has broad similarities with Hesiod's Theogony and with the Jewish Genesis myth, and could perhaps have been an inspiration for both.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--- &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia has a helpful diagram of the [family tree of the Babylonian gods][4].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abzu&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enki&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_tree_of_the_Babylonian_gods" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3681" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="744" RevisionGUID="2ee3add2-591a-464a-9b83-c930d11a290a" CreationDate="2015-05-19T07:52:50.573" UserId="57" Comment="added 389 characters in body" Text="In the Babylonian creation mythos, the Enuma Elish, the gods are created as a result of the union between two primordial entities: [Apsu][1] (male) and [Tiamut][2] (female): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When in the height heaven was not named,  &#xD;&#xA;And the earth beneath did not yet bear a name,  &#xD;&#xA;And the primeval Apsu, who begat them,  &#xD;&#xA;And chaos, Tiamut, the mother of them both  &#xD;&#xA;Their waters were mingled together,  &#xD;&#xA;And no field was formed, no marsh was to be seen;  &#xD;&#xA;When of the gods none had been called into being,  &#xD;&#xA;And none bore a name, and no destinies were ordained;   &#xD;&#xA;Then were created the gods in the midst of heaven,  &#xD;&#xA;Lahmu and Lahamu were called into being...  &#xD;&#xA;Ages increased,...  &#xD;&#xA;Then Ansar and Kisar were created, and over them....  &#xD;&#xA;Long were the days, then there came forth.....  &#xD;&#xA;Anu, their son,...  &#xD;&#xA;Ansar and Anu...  &#xD;&#xA;And the god Anu...  &#xD;&#xA;Nudimmud, whom his fathers, his begetters.....  &#xD;&#xA;Abounding in all wisdom,...'  &#xD;&#xA;He was exceeding strong...  &#xD;&#xA;He had no rival -  &#xD;&#xA;Thus were established and were... the great gods.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [ENUMA ELISH, THE EPIC OF CREATION, L.W. King Translator](http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/enuma.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later in the epic, Apsu wishes to kill his offsprings (for being a bit too noisy), which results in him being killed by his grandson [Ea (aka Enki)][3], who then becomes leader of the pantheon. The epic has broad similarities with [Hesiod's Theogony][4] and with the [Jewish Genesis myth][5], and could perhaps have been an inspiration for both.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--- &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia has a helpful diagram of the [family tree of the Babylonian gods][6].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abzu&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enki&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theogony#Other_cosmogonies_in_ancient_literature&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_creation_narrative#Mesopotamian_influence&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_tree_of_the_Babylonian_gods" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3682" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="745" RevisionGUID="eee4a750-b0a2-4a6a-95d8-c03e90b3f900" CreationDate="2015-05-19T09:58:21.947" UserId="29" Text="###Ares and Athena are both gods of war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;About [Athena][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Athena is the goddess of wisdom, courage, inspiration, civilization, law and justice, mathematics, strength, **war strategy**, the arts, crafts, and skill in ancient Greek religion and mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;About [Ares][3]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ares is the **Greek god of war**. He is one of the Twelve Olympians, and the son of Zeus and Hera. In Greek literature, he often represents the physical or violent and untamed aspect of war, in contrast to his sister the armored Athena, whose functions as a goddess of intelligence include military strategy and generalship.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since both gods represent war, **how are they different in relation to that? Is there any case where these two gods would come in conflict with one-another?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athena&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athena&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ares&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ares" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3683" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="745" RevisionGUID="eee4a750-b0a2-4a6a-95d8-c03e90b3f900" CreationDate="2015-05-19T09:58:21.947" UserId="29" Text="How were Athena and Ares worshipped in relation to war?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3684" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="745" RevisionGUID="eee4a750-b0a2-4a6a-95d8-c03e90b3f900" CreationDate="2015-05-19T09:58:21.947" UserId="29" Text="|greek|athena|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3685" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="746" RevisionGUID="2de57ad3-0fce-437d-91f9-76d2527be188" CreationDate="2015-05-19T09:58:21.947" UserId="29" Text="## Those two gods were worshipped differently.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Η Αθηνά, η οποία ξεκίνησε ως πάνοπλη Θεά του πολέμου και στη συνέχεια εξελίχθηκε σε πολιούχο Θεά της Αθήνας και σύμβολο της σοφίας, (...) Ο αιμοδιψής Άρης ήταν πολεμικός θεός, ο οποίος εκπροσωπούσε τη μανία και το παράλογο του πολέμου.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Athena, who initially was an armed Goddess of War and then became a patron goddess of Athens and a symbol of wisdom, (...) &#xD;&#xA;The bloodthirsty Mars was a war god, who represented the fury and the absurdity of war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Ekivolos.gr][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; While both gods are representantives of war, [Ares][2] actually represented the violence of war, while [Athena][3] was believed to have taught the Greek warriors the the art of war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Η μαχητική φύση της Αθηνάς εξαιτίας της  οποίας  λατρευόταν ως Άρια, διαφοροποιούνταν από τον χαρακτήρα του Άρη, το θεό του πολέμου. Ο Άρης αντιπροσώπευε αναρχικές διαμάχες, την βία του πολέμου, ενώ η Αθηνά πιστευόταν ότι είχε διδάξει στην ανθρωπότητα τις τεχνικές και τους κανόνες του πολέμου. Ως αποτέλεσμα, τα δυο αδέλφια συχνά περιγράφονταν από αρχαίους συγγραφείς σε μια κατάσταση διαμάχης και αυτό ήταν ιδιαίτερα αληθινό κατά την διάρκεια του Τρωικού πολέμου.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The combative nature of Athena because of which she was worshipped, **differentiated from the nature of Ares**, the god of war. **Mars represented anarchist struggles, the violence of war**, **while Athena was believed to have taught mankind the techniques and the rules of war**. As a result, the two brothers often were described by ancient writers in a conflict situation and that was especially true during the Trojan war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Ekivolos.gr][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ares][5] never became a patron god and was not worshipped as much as the other gods initially, although he was established as a god of the [Dodekatheon][6] later on, tied to people with tough and violent customs: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Όπως ήταν φυσικό, καμιά πόλη δεν τον έκανε πολιούχο της ενώ δεν ήταν ιδιαίτερα αγαπητός και στον κύκλο των υπολοίπων θεών. Για τους αρχαίους Έλληνες ο Άρης ήταν η κυρίαρχη φιγούρα πίσω από την βία, τις μάχες και τις άλλες διαμάχες μεταξύ των ανδρών.  Η «αίρεση» και η συνακόλουθη λατρεία  του θεού μάλλον άρχισε στην Θράκη όπου σύμφωνα με τον Όμηρο ζούσε ο Άρης. Από εκεί η λατρεία  του εξαπλώθηκε στην Βοιωτία και μετά σε ολόκληρη την Ελλάδα ολοκληρωτικά, οδηγώντας στην καθιέρωση του Άρη ως ενός  από τους δώδεκα θεούς του Ολύμπου. Οι ιδιότητες του Άρη συνδέονται με τις ρίζες του αφού, για τους αρχαίους Έλληνες, η Θράκη ήταν ένα μέρος σκληρών ανθρώπων και εθίμων.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Naturally, no city made him a patron god and he was not as popular as the other gods. For the ancient Greeks Mars was the dominant figure behind the violence, battles and other conflicts among men. The &quot;heresy&quot; and the subsequent worship of God began in Thrace [*a region in Northern Greece*] where, according to Homer, Mars lived. From there, the cult spread to Viotia [*Another region of Greece*] and then throughout Greece completely, leading to the establishment of Mars as one of the twelve gods of Olympus. The Martian properties associated with its roots since, for the ancient Greeks, **Thrace was a place of hard people and customs.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Ekivolos.gr][7]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It should be noted, that ancient Greeks had two war gods in order to demonstrate that a subtle technique of conducting war is a lot more efficient than brute force.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Σε αντίθεση με την Αθηνά που επινοούσε μεθοδικούς τρόπους για να κηρύττει και να διεξάγει  πόλεμο, ο Άρης αγαπούσε τις αιματοχυσίες και τις χαοτικές μάχες. Στον Τρωικό πόλεμο, ο Άρης τραυματίστηκε σοβαρά από την Αθηνά καθώς βοηθούσε τους Τρώες, αποδεικνύοντας έτσι ότι η τεχνική ήταν ικανή να υπερνικήσει την ωμή βία.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Unlike Athena who invented methodical ways to preach and to conduct war, Mars loved bloodshed and chaotic battles. The Trojan war, Mars was seriously injured by Athena as help the Trojans, **thus proving that the technique was able to overcome brute force.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Ekivolos.gr][8]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.ekivolos.gr/H%20thrhskeia%20twn%20arxaiwn%20ellhnwn.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ares&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athena&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.ekivolos.gr/H%20thrhskeia%20twn%20arxaiwn%20ellhnwn.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ares&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenism_%28religion%29&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.ekivolos.gr/H%20thrhskeia%20twn%20arxaiwn%20ellhnwn.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.ekivolos.gr/H%20thrhskeia%20twn%20arxaiwn%20ellhnwn.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3686" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="746" RevisionGUID="0e8b8567-212c-4335-a847-dd4a583f1af6" CreationDate="2015-05-19T12:08:31.057" UserId="29" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="## Those two gods were worshipped differently.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Η Αθηνά, η οποία ξεκίνησε ως πάνοπλη Θεά του πολέμου και στη συνέχεια εξελίχθηκε σε πολιούχο Θεά της Αθήνας και σύμβολο της σοφίας, (...) Ο αιμοδιψής Άρης ήταν πολεμικός θεός, ο οποίος εκπροσωπούσε τη μανία και το παράλογο του πολέμου.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Athena, who initially was an armed Goddess of War and then became a patron goddess of Athens and a symbol of wisdom, (...) &#xD;&#xA;The bloodthirsty Mars was a war god, who represented the fury and the absurdity of war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Ekivolos.gr][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; While both gods are representantives of war, [Ares][2] actually represented the violence of war, while [Athena][3] was believed to have taught the Greek warriors the the art of war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Η μαχητική φύση της Αθηνάς εξαιτίας της  οποίας  λατρευόταν ως Άρια, διαφοροποιούνταν από τον χαρακτήρα του Άρη, το θεό του πολέμου. Ο Άρης αντιπροσώπευε αναρχικές διαμάχες, την βία του πολέμου, ενώ η Αθηνά πιστευόταν ότι είχε διδάξει στην ανθρωπότητα τις τεχνικές και τους κανόνες του πολέμου. Ως αποτέλεσμα, τα δυο αδέλφια συχνά περιγράφονταν από αρχαίους συγγραφείς σε μια κατάσταση διαμάχης και αυτό ήταν ιδιαίτερα αληθινό κατά την διάρκεια του Τρωικού πολέμου.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The combative nature of Athena because of which she was worshipped, **differentiated from the nature of Ares**, the god of war. **Mars represented anarchist struggles, the violence of war**, **while Athena was believed to have taught mankind the techniques and the rules of war**. As a result, the two brothers often were described by ancient writers in a conflict situation and that was especially true during the Trojan war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Ekivolos.gr][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ares][5] never became a patron god and was not worshipped as much as the other gods initially, although he was established as a god of the [Dodekatheon][6] later on, tied to people who had tough and violent customs: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Όπως ήταν φυσικό, καμιά πόλη δεν τον έκανε πολιούχο της ενώ δεν ήταν ιδιαίτερα αγαπητός και στον κύκλο των υπολοίπων θεών. Για τους αρχαίους Έλληνες ο Άρης ήταν η κυρίαρχη φιγούρα πίσω από την βία, τις μάχες και τις άλλες διαμάχες μεταξύ των ανδρών.  Η «αίρεση» και η συνακόλουθη λατρεία  του θεού μάλλον άρχισε στην Θράκη όπου σύμφωνα με τον Όμηρο ζούσε ο Άρης. Από εκεί η λατρεία  του εξαπλώθηκε στην Βοιωτία και μετά σε ολόκληρη την Ελλάδα ολοκληρωτικά, οδηγώντας στην καθιέρωση του Άρη ως ενός  από τους δώδεκα θεούς του Ολύμπου. Οι ιδιότητες του Άρη συνδέονται με τις ρίζες του αφού, για τους αρχαίους Έλληνες, η Θράκη ήταν ένα μέρος σκληρών ανθρώπων και εθίμων.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Naturally, no city made him a patron god and he was not as popular as the other gods. For the ancient Greeks Ares was the dominant figure behind violence, battles and other conflicts among men. The &quot;heresy&quot; and the subsequent worship of God began in Thrace [*a region in Northern Greece*] where, according to Homer, Mars lived. From there, the cult spread to Viotia [*Another region of Greece*] and then throughout Greece completely, leading to the establishment of Ares as one of the twelve gods of Olympus. The properties of Ares were associated with its roots since, for the ancient Greeks, **Thrace was a place of hard people and customs.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Ekivolos.gr][7]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It should be noted, that ancient Greeks had two war gods in order to demonstrate that a subtle technique of conducting war is a lot more efficient than brute force.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Σε αντίθεση με την Αθηνά που επινοούσε μεθοδικούς τρόπους για να κηρύττει και να διεξάγει  πόλεμο, ο Άρης αγαπούσε τις αιματοχυσίες και τις χαοτικές μάχες. Στον Τρωικό πόλεμο, ο Άρης τραυματίστηκε σοβαρά από την Αθηνά καθώς βοηθούσε τους Τρώες, αποδεικνύοντας έτσι ότι η τεχνική ήταν ικανή να υπερνικήσει την ωμή βία.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Unlike Athena who invented methodical ways to preach and to conduct war, Mars loved bloodshed and chaotic battles. The Trojan war, Mars was seriously injured by Athena as help the Trojans, **thus proving that the technique was able to overcome brute force.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Ekivolos.gr][8]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.ekivolos.gr/H%20thrhskeia%20twn%20arxaiwn%20ellhnwn.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ares&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athena&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.ekivolos.gr/H%20thrhskeia%20twn%20arxaiwn%20ellhnwn.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ares&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenism_%28religion%29&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.ekivolos.gr/H%20thrhskeia%20twn%20arxaiwn%20ellhnwn.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.ekivolos.gr/H%20thrhskeia%20twn%20arxaiwn%20ellhnwn.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3690" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="684" RevisionGUID="7a3811d3-3ede-4e8c-82e4-a008c782a558" CreationDate="2015-05-19T13:49:12.030" UserId="14" Comment="added 11 characters in body" Text="**No, Kalki only comes in this Kali Yuga, not every Kali Yuga.**  Let me first explain a bit about Hindu timescales.  The four Yugas known as Satya, Treta, Dwapara, and Kali together make up one Mahayuga, and a thousand Mahayugas make up one Kalpa or day of Brahma.  But in addition to being divided into 1000 Mahayugas, a Kalpa is also divided into fourteen Manvantaras, each of which is made up of about 71 Mahayugas.  We're currently living in the seventh Manvantara of the present Kalpa, known as the Vaivasvata Manavantara, and we're living in the 28th Kali Yuga of the Vaivasvata Manvantara.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now that we have some background, in [this chapter][1] of the Matsya Purana (an important Hindu scripture), various incarnations of Vishnu in the present Vaivasvata Manvantara are described.  But Kalki is only mentioned once, and that is in the current Kali Yuga.  [This excerpt][2] from the Skanda Purana says the same thing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And we can find explicit references to how Kali Yugas have ended in the past.  In particular, [this chapter][3] of the famous Hindu epic the Mahabharata describes how Vishnu's incarnation Parashurama brought about the end of the 19th Kali Yuga of the Vaivasvata Manvantara by killing the kings of the world:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Even the great ascetic Rama, the hero worshipped by all heroes, that son of Jamadagni, of great fame, will die, without being contented (with the period of his life). **Rooting out all evils from the earth, he caused the primeval Yuga to set in.** Having obtained unrivalled prosperity, no fault could be seen in him. His father having been slain and his calf having been stolen by the Kshatriyas, he without any boast, slew Kartavirya who had never been vanquished before by foes. With his bow he slew four and sixty times ten thousand Kshatriyas already within the jaws of death. In that slaughter were included fourteen thousand Brahmana-hating Kshatriyas of the Dantakura country, all of whom he slew. Of the Haihayas, he slew a thousand with his short club, a thousand with his sword, and a thousand by hanging. Heroic warriors, with their cars, steeds, and elephants, lay dead on the field, slain by the wise son of Jamadagni, enraged at the slaughter of his father. And Rama, on that occasion, slew ten thousand Kshatriyas with his axe. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact, as far as I know there was only one other occasion where Vishnu took a Kalki incarnation.  The Kalki incarnation was named Pramati, and he seems to have lived in the Swayambhuva Manvantara, the first Manvantara of the present Kalpa.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By the way, if you're interested in those lists of Vaivasvata Manvantara incarnations found in the Matsya and Skanda Puranas, I've posted a few questions about them on Hinduism.SE, [here][4], [here][5], and [here][6].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=nckrAAAAMAAJ&amp;dq=%2224th%20treta%22&amp;pg=PA138#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.indianscriptures.com/Content/Articles/PDFs/27478/62f_chapter_19_2.pdf#toolbar=0&amp;pagemode=none&amp;view=FitBH&amp;page=1%22&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://Even%20the%20great%20ascetic%20Rama,%20the%20hero%20worshipped%20by%20all%20heroes,%20that%20son%20of%20Jamadagni,%20of%20great%20fame,%20will%20die,%20without%20being&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://hinduism.stackexchange.com/q/7192/36&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://hinduism.stackexchange.com/q/7194/36&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://hinduism.stackexchange.com/q/7221/36" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3694" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="44" RevisionGUID="78e8e13e-b744-4731-8df8-57bc0580ef61" CreationDate="2015-05-19T15:04:01.157" UserId="29" Comment="typo" Text="&gt; Πανδώρα (παν + δώρα): the all-gifted&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Etymology of Pandora][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The myth of Pandora (the first mortal woman) is misinterpreted. I've seen many modern books wrongly claiming that hope did escape the box and, despite all evil that was spread throughout the land, people still hoped that better days would soon come. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod is the one that refers to the box (it was not a box actually, but more like a jar) and claims that Pandora (actually referring to women) is the root of all evil, because she would hurt the man with her beauty and lies.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;For from her is the descent of female women       &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;a great pain for mortals, living with men, &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;companions not of destructive Poverty but of Plenty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Theogony][2]&lt;sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Pandora opened the box, all evil escaped it, but Pandora (under Zeus' will) held hope inside the jar by closing the lid. Isiodus doesn't say why hope stayed into the jar, but one (judging from Isiodus' view on women) can imply that  he meant by that, that the men would have no hope against women, for without her, they would die alone, but with her, they'd have to withstand their cunning nature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Judging by this, which is how Hesiod closes [Theogony][3]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thus it is not possible to escape the mind of Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Theogony][4]&lt;sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; an angry Zeus decides to give humanity a punishing gift to compensate for the boon they had been given. He commands Hephaestus to mold from earth the first woman, a &quot;beautiful evil&quot; whose descendants would torment the human race&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One can see what Hesiod wanted to say in the end.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Pandora&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.msu.edu/~tyrrell/theogon.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theogony&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.msu.edu/~tyrrell/theogon.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora#Hesiod" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3695" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="746" RevisionGUID="3b0c3dc1-c4c6-457f-aa77-7177490e5f65" CreationDate="2015-05-19T15:05:14.093" UserId="29" Comment="edited body" Text="## Those two gods were worshipped differently.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Η Αθηνά, η οποία ξεκίνησε ως πάνοπλη Θεά του πολέμου και στη συνέχεια εξελίχθηκε σε πολιούχο Θεά της Αθήνας και σύμβολο της σοφίας, (...) Ο αιμοδιψής Άρης ήταν πολεμικός θεός, ο οποίος εκπροσωπούσε τη μανία και το παράλογο του πολέμου.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Athena, who initially was an armed Goddess of War and then became a patron goddess of Athens and a symbol of wisdom, (...) &#xD;&#xA;The bloodthirsty Ares was a war god, who represented the fury and the absurdity of war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Ekivolos.gr][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; While both gods are representantives of war, [Ares][2] actually represented the violence of war, while [Athena][3] was believed to have taught the Greek warriors the the art of war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Η μαχητική φύση της Αθηνάς εξαιτίας της  οποίας  λατρευόταν ως Άρια, διαφοροποιούνταν από τον χαρακτήρα του Άρη, το θεό του πολέμου. Ο Άρης αντιπροσώπευε αναρχικές διαμάχες, την βία του πολέμου, ενώ η Αθηνά πιστευόταν ότι είχε διδάξει στην ανθρωπότητα τις τεχνικές και τους κανόνες του πολέμου. Ως αποτέλεσμα, τα δυο αδέλφια συχνά περιγράφονταν από αρχαίους συγγραφείς σε μια κατάσταση διαμάχης και αυτό ήταν ιδιαίτερα αληθινό κατά την διάρκεια του Τρωικού πολέμου.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The combative nature of Athena because of which she was worshipped, **differentiated from the nature of Ares**, the god of war. **Ares represented anarchist struggles, the violence of war**, **while Athena was believed to have taught mankind the techniques and the rules of war**. As a result, the two brothers often were described by ancient writers in a conflict situation and that was especially true during the Trojan war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Ekivolos.gr][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ares][5] never became a patron god and was not worshipped as much as the other gods initially, although he was established as a god of the [Dodekatheon][6] later on, tied to people who had tough and violent customs: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Όπως ήταν φυσικό, καμιά πόλη δεν τον έκανε πολιούχο της ενώ δεν ήταν ιδιαίτερα αγαπητός και στον κύκλο των υπολοίπων θεών. Για τους αρχαίους Έλληνες ο Άρης ήταν η κυρίαρχη φιγούρα πίσω από την βία, τις μάχες και τις άλλες διαμάχες μεταξύ των ανδρών.  Η «αίρεση» και η συνακόλουθη λατρεία  του θεού μάλλον άρχισε στην Θράκη όπου σύμφωνα με τον Όμηρο ζούσε ο Άρης. Από εκεί η λατρεία  του εξαπλώθηκε στην Βοιωτία και μετά σε ολόκληρη την Ελλάδα ολοκληρωτικά, οδηγώντας στην καθιέρωση του Άρη ως ενός  από τους δώδεκα θεούς του Ολύμπου. Οι ιδιότητες του Άρη συνδέονται με τις ρίζες του αφού, για τους αρχαίους Έλληνες, η Θράκη ήταν ένα μέρος σκληρών ανθρώπων και εθίμων.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Naturally, no city made him a patron god and he was not as popular as the other gods. For the ancient Greeks Ares was the dominant figure behind violence, battles and other conflicts among men. The &quot;heresy&quot; and the subsequent worship of God began in Thrace [*a region in Northern Greece*] where, according to Homer, Ares lived. From there, the cult spread to Viotia [*Another region of Greece*] and then throughout Greece completely, leading to the establishment of Ares as one of the twelve gods of Olympus. The properties of Ares were associated with its roots since, for the ancient Greeks, **Thrace was a place of hard people and customs.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Ekivolos.gr][7]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It should be noted, that ancient Greeks had two war gods in order to demonstrate that a subtle technique of conducting war is a lot more efficient than brute force.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Σε αντίθεση με την Αθηνά που επινοούσε μεθοδικούς τρόπους για να κηρύττει και να διεξάγει  πόλεμο, ο Άρης αγαπούσε τις αιματοχυσίες και τις χαοτικές μάχες. Στον Τρωικό πόλεμο, ο Άρης τραυματίστηκε σοβαρά από την Αθηνά καθώς βοηθούσε τους Τρώες, αποδεικνύοντας έτσι ότι η τεχνική ήταν ικανή να υπερνικήσει την ωμή βία.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Unlike Athena who invented methodical ways to preach and to conduct war, Ares loved bloodshed and chaotic battles. The Trojan war, Ares was seriously injured by Athena as help the Trojans, **thus proving that the technique was able to overcome brute force.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Ekivolos.gr][8]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.ekivolos.gr/H%20thrhskeia%20twn%20arxaiwn%20ellhnwn.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ares&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athena&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.ekivolos.gr/H%20thrhskeia%20twn%20arxaiwn%20ellhnwn.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ares&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenism_%28religion%29&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.ekivolos.gr/H%20thrhskeia%20twn%20arxaiwn%20ellhnwn.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.ekivolos.gr/H%20thrhskeia%20twn%20arxaiwn%20ellhnwn.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3698" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="743" RevisionGUID="14519882-6217-4b1b-a24f-e632add2e105" CreationDate="2015-05-19T16:35:38.073" UserId="42" Comment="Attempting to make the question a bit more clear." Text="Many people have been said to have soul their soul to Satan.  Musicians such as Robert Johnson and Niccolò Paganini are said to have sold their soul for their musical virtuosity.  Faust provides another obvious example, as well as historic witch hunts which resulted in supposed signed documents detailing pacts with demons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Theophilus of Adana](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophilus_of_Adana) seems a likely early instance of this sort of story, and while the he is said to have died in the 6th century, I don't know much about the origin of the story of a bargain for his soul, or whether this is the earliest such story.  If this is the earliest example, when does this story first occur, or when was it documented?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Committing sins in pursuit of worldly wealth or fame can be seen as a figurative deal with the devil, of course, especially in combination with the biblical devil's role as a tempter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So where does the legend of a literal deal with the devil (or demon, e.g. Mephistopheles) for one's soul, be it written or oral, first appear?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3699" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="748" RevisionGUID="1034f1b8-f7e3-4e57-ab99-a2bb8bd14e53" CreationDate="2015-05-19T18:04:46.720" UserId="42" Text="A number of sources claim Loki to have originally been a fire god of some description.  [This, for instance](http://loki-in-myth.tumblr.com/post/29634916739/creation-to-lokis-conception):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Loki was originally a fire deity before he became more closely associated with the trickster archetype, and this better explains the odd story of conception.  Farbauti, meaning “fierce strike”, was a representation of lightning.  Nal meant “pine needles”, and her other name, Laufey, meant “leaves”.  In this way, Loki – fire – was created by Farbauti – lightning – striking Nal or Laufey – pine needles or leaves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Loki appears as a fire god (Loge) in [Wagner's Ring Cycle](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Ring_des_Nibelungen#List_of_characters), as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, I've also read that this is a mistake, caused by the similarity between the names Loki and Logi, who is a personification of fire, as seen together in [the Prose Edda](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre04.htm):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So it was also with the games, in which ye did contend against my henchmen: that was the first, which Loki did; he was very hungry and ate zealously, but he who was called Logi was &quot;wild-fire,&quot; and he burned the trough no less swiftly than the meat. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was Loki really once considered a fire god?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(On a related note, does Farbauti's name (&quot;fierce striker&quot;) really refer to, or could it reasonably refer to, a lightning strike?)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3700" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="748" RevisionGUID="1034f1b8-f7e3-4e57-ab99-a2bb8bd14e53" CreationDate="2015-05-19T18:04:46.720" UserId="42" Text="Was Loki originally a fire god?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3701" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="748" RevisionGUID="1034f1b8-f7e3-4e57-ab99-a2bb8bd14e53" CreationDate="2015-05-19T18:04:46.720" UserId="42" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3703" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="749" RevisionGUID="4cfc90eb-98c8-4e47-ba4a-326715d4f220" CreationDate="2015-05-19T18:39:03.460" UserId="292" Text="No, the confusion between Loki and Logi goes back to 19th-century theories about myth, which saw Odin as the storm (or sun), Thor as literally thunder, and Loki as fire. No one accepts these ideas now, as Rudolf Simek and John Lindow make clear in the dictionaries of Norse myth. The general consensus about Loki is that pinning him down to one thing is like nailing Jell-O to the wall. The 9th-century poem [Haustlong][1] calls him the &quot;rouser of tales&quot; and I think that's as close as we're going to get to a defintion of Loki. &#xD;&#xA;It is ironic that Logi is confused with Loki, as they are opponents in the contests that Utgard-loki sets up. (After all, Thor contends with the Midgard-Serpent and old age, and no one thinks he is somehow the same as them.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.wyrdwords.vispa.com/goddesses/idhun/haustlong.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3704" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="750" RevisionGUID="204e350e-d1a2-482e-8b3c-55c433e683ab" CreationDate="2015-05-19T18:49:48.687" UserId="29" Text="It's true, [Loki][1] is believed to have been a god of fire, before being considered a trickster god. But, as [Karl Seigfried][2] tells us:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The “god of fire” idea is a famous mistake that is due to the similarity between the names Loki and Logi, the latter being a personification of fire in the well-known story of Thor’s visit to the giant Útgarða-Loki. The connection to fire was popularized by the composer Richard Wagner in his Ring operas, in which he portrayed Loki as a sort of fire-sprite named Loge.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Norse Mythology Blog][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;###So, is he just a trickster god? No, he was neither a fire god, nor a trickster god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Loki is not referred to by either of these titles in the source texts of Norse mythology. Rudolf Simek calls him “a god without a function,” and all the major scholars of Norse mythology and religion agree that Loki was never actually worshiped in ancient times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Norse Mythology Blog][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_E._H._Seigfried&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.norsemyth.org/2013/01/questioning-loki-part-one.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.norsemyth.org/2013/01/questioning-loki-part-one.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3705" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="727" RevisionGUID="06f3961e-f65c-4446-ac54-445f5b6fb879" CreationDate="2015-05-19T18:53:55.440" UserId="29" Comment="added 9 characters in body" Text="##The concept of [*mes*][1] refers to set of *ordinances* or *decrees* as defined by the gods:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **In Sumerian mythology, a me (Sumerian, conventionally pronounced [mɛ]) or ñe [ŋɛ] or parşu (Akkadian, [parsˤu]) is one of the decrees of the gods foundational to those social institutions**, religious practices, technologies, behaviors, mores, and human conditions that make civilization, as the Sumerians understood it, possible. They are fundamental to the Sumerian understanding of the relationship between humanity and the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kramer and Maier explain the concept of *mes*, but also the relationship of [*Inanna*][3] with them :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Another important concept in Sumerian theology, was that of me. The me were universal decrees of divine authority.** They are the invocations that spread arts, crafts, and civilization. **The me were assembled by Enlil in Ekur and given to Enki to guard and impart to the world**, beginning with Eridu, his center of worship. From there, he guards the me and imparts them on the people. He directs the me towards Ur and Meluhha and Dilmun, organizing the world with his decrees. Later, **Inanna comes to Enki and complains at having been given too little power from his decrees.** In a different text, she gets Enki drunk and he grants her more powers, arts, crafts, and attributes - a total of ninety-four me. **Inanna parts company with Enki to deliver the me to her cult center at Erech.** Enki recovers his wits and tries to recover the me from her, but she arrives safely in Erech with them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[(Kramer &amp; Maier 1989: pp. 38-68)][4]&lt;/sub&gt; &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Sumerian FAQ][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are over 100 mes (around 80 are known to us and are listed [here][6]), some of which are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1. **Godship**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2. **The exalted shrine**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 3. **The flood**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4. **Sexual intercourse**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 5. **Prostitution**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 6. **Art**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and are some times represented as physical objects:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Uruk, by the big apple tree, Dumuzi, the husband of Inanna, **was dressed in his shining me garments**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Descent of Inanna][7]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Let me note, that a possible interpretation of the myth is the transfer of hegemony from [Eridu][8] to [Uruk][9] in [Sumerian History][10]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eridu was long considered the **earliest city in southern Mesopotamia**, and is still today argued to be the oldest city in the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][11]&lt;/sub&gt; &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Leick, Gwendolyn (2002), &quot;Mesopotamia: The Invention of the City&quot;][12]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In addition to being one of the first cities, Uruk was the main force of urbanization during the Uruk period (4000–3200 BC). This period of 800 years **saw a shift from small, agricultural villages to a larger urban center** with a full-time bureaucracy, military, and stratified society.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][13]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_%28mythology%29&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_%28mythology%29&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inanna&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.amazon.com/Myths-Enki-Crafty-Samuel-Kramer/dp/0195055020&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/sumer-faq.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://one-heaven.org/sacred_texts/book/Inanna_and_the_God_of_Wisdom/c/3.html&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://people.uncw.edu/deagona/myth/Descent%20Of%20Inanna.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eridu&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruk&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Sumer&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eridu&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.amazon.co.uk/372/dp/0140265740&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruk" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3707" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="743" RevisionGUID="1fddfeba-e86e-4d5e-88a5-6adf3cb07ff7" CreationDate="2015-05-19T19:29:07.170" UserId="42" Comment="added 27 characters in body" Text="Many people have been said to have soul their soul to Satan.  Musicians such as Robert Johnson and Niccolò Paganini are said to have sold their soul for their musical virtuosity.  Faust provides another obvious example, as well as historic witch hunts which resulted in supposed signed documents detailing pacts with demons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Theophilus of Adana](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophilus_of_Adana) seems a likely early instance of this sort of story, and while the he is said to have died in the 6th century, I don't know much about the origin of the story of a bargain for his soul, or whether this is the earliest such story.  If this is the earliest example, when does this story first occur, or when was it documented?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Committing sins in pursuit of worldly wealth or fame can be seen as a figurative deal with the devil, of course, especially in combination with the biblical devil's role as a tempter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So where does the legend of a literal deal with the devil (or demon, e.g. Mephistopheles) for one's soul, be it written or oral, first appear in the Christian tradition?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3708" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="750" RevisionGUID="e8e4fedb-5465-42fd-8d8d-8b801ba65bae" CreationDate="2015-05-19T19:29:32.253" UserId="29" Comment="added 1274 characters in body" Text="It's true, [Loki][1] is believed to have been a god of fire, before being considered a trickster god. But, as [Karl Seigfried][2] tells us:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The “god of fire” idea is a famous mistake that is due to the similarity between the names Loki and Logi, the latter being a personification of fire in the well-known story of Thor’s visit to the giant Útgarða-Loki. The connection to fire was popularized by the composer Richard Wagner in his Ring operas, in which he portrayed Loki as a sort of fire-sprite named Loge.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Norse Mythology Blog][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;###So, is he just a trickster god? No, he was neither a fire god, nor a trickster god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Loki is not referred to by either of these titles in the source texts of Norse mythology. Rudolf Simek calls him “a god without a function,” and all the major scholars of Norse mythology and religion agree that Loki was never actually worshiped in ancient times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Norse Mythology Blog][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Someone could say that whether or not he was worshipped could be a matter of conflict, but it seems noone disagrees with this view:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##[John Lindow][5]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In Runemarks’ character list, all the gods and goddesses are defined by their (antagonistic) relationships with Loki. He appears more in both novels than any of the Æsir or Vanir. John Lindow writes that **“[e]veryone agrees that there was never any cult of Loki,”** yet he is a favorite fictional character today.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Interview with Joanne Harris][6]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##[Ellis Davidson][7]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;(...) for there is no evidence of his worship among men (...)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Gods and Myths of Northern Europe][8]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and so on...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_E._H._Seigfried&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.norsemyth.org/2013/01/questioning-loki-part-one.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.norsemyth.org/2013/01/questioning-loki-part-one.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lindow&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.joanne-harris.co.uk/books/the-gospel-of-loki/read-the-interview-from-the-norse-mythology-blog-with-dr-karl-seigfried/&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilda_Ellis_Davidson&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://books.google.gr/books?id=rkwXBwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT101&amp;lpg=PT101&amp;dq=There%20is%20no%20evidence%20of%20[Loki%27s]%20worship%20among%20men.&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=F5oEeajrrW&amp;sig=c_U4Cc4AQ6RyPUqz4Kml8BNqe5U&amp;hl=el&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=Yo1bVcf7JaKjyAOn_4DADQ&amp;ved=0CEQQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&amp;q=There%20is%20no%20evidence%20of%20[Loki%27s]%20worship%20among%20men.&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3709" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="750" RevisionGUID="4e7adcf0-5f64-4f3a-9348-06988da6ecdf" CreationDate="2015-05-19T19:40:27.230" UserId="29" Comment="added 17 characters in body" Text="It's true, [Loki][1] is believed to have been a god of fire, before being considered a trickster god. But, as [Karl Seigfried][2] tells us:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The “god of fire” idea is a famous mistake that is due to the similarity between the names Loki and Logi, the latter being a personification of fire in the well-known story of Thor’s visit to the giant Útgarða-Loki. The connection to fire was popularized by the composer Richard Wagner in his Ring operas, in which he portrayed Loki as a sort of fire-sprite named Loge.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Norse Mythology Blog][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;###So, is he just a trickster god? No, he was neither a fire god, nor a trickster god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Loki is not referred to by either of these titles in the source texts of Norse mythology. Rudolf Simek calls him “a god without a function,” and all the major scholars of Norse mythology and religion agree that Loki was never actually worshiped in ancient times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Norse Mythology Blog][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Someone could say that whether or not he was worshipped could be a matter of conflict among historians, but it seems noone disagrees with this view:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##[John Lindow][5]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In Runemarks’ character list, all the gods and goddesses are defined by their (antagonistic) relationships with Loki. He appears more in both novels than any of the Æsir or Vanir. John Lindow writes that **“[e]veryone agrees that there was never any cult of Loki,”** yet he is a favorite fictional character today.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Interview with Joanne Harris][6]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##[Ellis Davidson][7]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;(...) for there is no evidence of his worship among men (...)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Gods and Myths of Northern Europe][8]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and so on...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_E._H._Seigfried&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.norsemyth.org/2013/01/questioning-loki-part-one.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.norsemyth.org/2013/01/questioning-loki-part-one.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lindow&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.joanne-harris.co.uk/books/the-gospel-of-loki/read-the-interview-from-the-norse-mythology-blog-with-dr-karl-seigfried/&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilda_Ellis_Davidson&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://books.google.gr/books?id=rkwXBwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT101&amp;lpg=PT101&amp;dq=There%20is%20no%20evidence%20of%20[Loki%27s]%20worship%20among%20men.&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=F5oEeajrrW&amp;sig=c_U4Cc4AQ6RyPUqz4Kml8BNqe5U&amp;hl=el&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=Yo1bVcf7JaKjyAOn_4DADQ&amp;ved=0CEQQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&amp;q=There%20is%20no%20evidence%20of%20[Loki%27s]%20worship%20among%20men.&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3711" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="751" RevisionGUID="296a0bd2-e512-455b-8a42-f98856a8af95" CreationDate="2015-05-19T21:34:55.637" UserId="183" Text="I was reading about [how Pele, the goddess of volcanoes, came to Hawaii](http://play.google.com/books/reader?id=IXtMAAAAMAAJ&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;output=reader&amp;hl=en&amp;pg=GBS.PA9). On page 9, it says,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Na-maka-oka-hai went to the highest of all the mythical lands of the ancestors, Nuu-mea-lani (The raised dais of heaven). There she could look over all the seas from Ka-la-kee-nui-a-Kane to Kauai; i.e. from a legendary land in the south to the most northerly part of the Hawaiian Islands.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This passage makes it sound like Nuu-mea-lani is somewhere in the sky, yet many Hawaiian myths talk about Pele traveling over the sea to get to Hawai'i, implying that it is a land.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is Nuu-mea-lani an island?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3712" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="751" RevisionGUID="296a0bd2-e512-455b-8a42-f98856a8af95" CreationDate="2015-05-19T21:34:55.637" UserId="183" Text="Was Nuu-mea-lani, a home of the Hawaiian gods, an island?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3713" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="751" RevisionGUID="296a0bd2-e512-455b-8a42-f98856a8af95" CreationDate="2015-05-19T21:34:55.637" UserId="183" Text="|hawaiian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3714" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="752" RevisionGUID="c46131c3-e5cc-4176-9375-f5f559524f5d" CreationDate="2015-05-19T21:58:47.363" UserId="183" Text="&lt;sup&gt;It looks like I've found an answer after posting this.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#It varies in different tales.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Hawaiian Romance Of Laieikawai](http://fraternalorderofmoai.org/funstuff/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/The-Hawaiian-Romance-Of-Laieikawai-1917.pdf) contains numerous references to Nuu-mea-lani being in the air (emphasis mine):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A terrible sight to Mokukelekahiki to see that lizard; **he flew away up to Nuumealani, the Raised Place in the Heavens;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Kaeloikamalama flew down with Mokukelekahiki **from the heights of Nuumealani, the land in the air.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lo! on that day, the rainbow pathway was **let down from Nuumealani** and Kaonohiokala and Laieikawai mounted upon that way, and she laid her last commands upon her sisters, the seer, and Laielohelohe; these were her words:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lailai flies to heaven, rests upon &quot;the boughs of the aoa tree in Nuumealani,&quot; and bears the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Legends of Gods and Ghosts](http://www.forgottenbooks.com/readbook_text/Legends_of_Gods_and_Ghosts_Hawaiian_Mythology_1000049143/201) implies that it is an island.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The boy was very angry and said: &quot;You have treated me cruelly, when I only came to see you and to love you. You would have taken my young life for sacrifice. Now you tell me you belong to the temple of my ancestors in Nuu-mea-lani.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ke-au-nini returned on his ocean journey to Nuu-mea-lani." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3715" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="746" RevisionGUID="adf2d59a-7fd9-4514-b02a-7fe37ee354fe" CreationDate="2015-05-19T22:12:51.490" UserId="29" Comment="added 9 characters in body" Text="## Those two gods were worshipped differently.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Η Αθηνά, η οποία ξεκίνησε ως πάνοπλη Θεά του πολέμου και στη συνέχεια εξελίχθηκε σε πολιούχο Θεά της Αθήνας και σύμβολο της σοφίας, (...) Ο αιμοδιψής Άρης ήταν πολεμικός θεός, ο οποίος εκπροσωπούσε τη μανία και το παράλογο του πολέμου.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Athena, who initially was an armed Goddess of War and then became a patron goddess of Athens and a symbol of wisdom, (...) &#xD;&#xA;The bloodthirsty Ares was a war god, who represented the fury and the absurdity of war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Ekivolos.gr][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; While both gods are representantives of war, [Ares][2] actually represented the violence of war, while [Athena][3] was believed to have taught the Greek warriors the the art of war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Η μαχητική φύση της Αθηνάς εξαιτίας της  οποίας  λατρευόταν ως Άρια, διαφοροποιούνταν από τον χαρακτήρα του Άρη, το θεό του πολέμου. Ο Άρης αντιπροσώπευε αναρχικές διαμάχες, την βία του πολέμου, ενώ η Αθηνά πιστευόταν ότι είχε διδάξει στην ανθρωπότητα τις τεχνικές και τους κανόνες του πολέμου. Ως αποτέλεσμα, τα δυο αδέλφια συχνά περιγράφονταν από αρχαίους συγγραφείς σε μια κατάσταση διαμάχης και αυτό ήταν ιδιαίτερα αληθινό κατά την διάρκεια του Τρωικού πολέμου.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The combative nature of Athena because of which she was worshipped, **differentiated from the nature of Ares**, the god of war. **Ares represented anarchist struggles, the violence of war**, **while Athena was believed to have taught mankind the techniques and the rules of war**. As a result, the two brothers often were described by ancient writers in a conflict situation and that was especially true during the Trojan war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Ekivolos.gr][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ares][5] never became a patron god and was not worshipped as much as the other gods initially, although he was established as a god of the [Dodekatheon][6] later on, tied to people who had tough and violent customs: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Όπως ήταν φυσικό, καμιά πόλη δεν τον έκανε πολιούχο της ενώ δεν ήταν ιδιαίτερα αγαπητός και στον κύκλο των υπολοίπων θεών. Για τους αρχαίους Έλληνες ο Άρης ήταν η κυρίαρχη φιγούρα πίσω από την βία, τις μάχες και τις άλλες διαμάχες μεταξύ των ανδρών.  Η «αίρεση» και η συνακόλουθη λατρεία  του θεού μάλλον άρχισε στην Θράκη όπου σύμφωνα με τον Όμηρο ζούσε ο Άρης. Από εκεί η λατρεία  του εξαπλώθηκε στην Βοιωτία και μετά σε ολόκληρη την Ελλάδα ολοκληρωτικά, οδηγώντας στην καθιέρωση του Άρη ως ενός  από τους δώδεκα θεούς του Ολύμπου. Οι ιδιότητες του Άρη συνδέονται με τις ρίζες του αφού, για τους αρχαίους Έλληνες, η Θράκη ήταν ένα μέρος σκληρών ανθρώπων και εθίμων.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Naturally, no city made him a patron god and he was not as popular as the other gods. For the ancient Greeks Ares was the dominant figure behind violence, battles and other conflicts among men. The &quot;heresy&quot; and the subsequent worship of God began in Thrace [*a region in Northern Greece*] where, according to Homer, Ares lived. From there, the cult spread to Viotia [*Another region of Greece*] and then throughout Greece completely, leading to the establishment of Ares as one of the twelve gods of Olympus. The properties of Ares were associated with its roots since, for the ancient Greeks, **Thrace was a place of hard people and customs.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Ekivolos.gr][7]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It should be noted, that ancient Greeks had two war gods in order to demonstrate that a subtle technique of conducting war is a lot more efficient than brute force.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Σε αντίθεση με την Αθηνά που επινοούσε μεθοδικούς τρόπους για να κηρύττει και να διεξάγει  πόλεμο, ο Άρης αγαπούσε τις αιματοχυσίες και τις χαοτικές μάχες. Στον Τρωικό πόλεμο, ο Άρης τραυματίστηκε σοβαρά από την Αθηνά καθώς βοηθούσε τους Τρώες, αποδεικνύοντας έτσι ότι η τεχνική ήταν ικανή να υπερνικήσει την ωμή βία.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Unlike Athena who invented methodical ways to preach and to conduct war, Ares loved bloodshed and chaotic battles. In the Trojan war, Ares was seriously injured by Athena as he was helping the Trojans, **thus proving that technique was able to overcome brute force.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Ekivolos.gr][8]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.ekivolos.gr/H%20thrhskeia%20twn%20arxaiwn%20ellhnwn.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ares&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athena&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.ekivolos.gr/H%20thrhskeia%20twn%20arxaiwn%20ellhnwn.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ares&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenism_%28religion%29&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.ekivolos.gr/H%20thrhskeia%20twn%20arxaiwn%20ellhnwn.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.ekivolos.gr/H%20thrhskeia%20twn%20arxaiwn%20ellhnwn.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3716" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="751" RevisionGUID="57ac50be-3091-4ed6-ad46-3be0a60ef0e9" CreationDate="2015-05-19T22:20:04.050" UserId="183" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="I was reading about [how Pele, the goddess of volcanoes, came to Hawai'i](http://play.google.com/books/reader?id=IXtMAAAAMAAJ&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;output=reader&amp;hl=en&amp;pg=GBS.PA9). On page 9, it says,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Na-maka-oka-hai went to the highest of all the mythical lands of the ancestors, Nuu-mea-lani (The raised dais of heaven). There she could look over all the seas from Ka-la-kee-nui-a-Kane to Kauai; i.e. from a legendary land in the south to the most northerly part of the Hawaiian Islands.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This passage makes it sound like Nuu-mea-lani is somewhere in the sky, yet many Hawaiian myths talk about Pele traveling over the sea to get to Hawai'i, implying that it is a land.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is Nuu-mea-lani an island?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3717" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="752" RevisionGUID="b7c0292a-1312-4185-80aa-9e132085be75" CreationDate="2015-05-19T22:26:10.163" UserId="29" Comment="You should add the removed sentence as a comment." Text="#It varies in different tales.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Hawaiian Romance Of Laieikawai](http://fraternalorderofmoai.org/funstuff/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/The-Hawaiian-Romance-Of-Laieikawai-1917.pdf) contains numerous references to Nuu-mea-lani being in the air (emphasis mine):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A terrible sight to Mokukelekahiki to see that lizard; **he flew away up to Nuumealani, the Raised Place in the Heavens;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Kaeloikamalama flew down with Mokukelekahiki **from the heights of Nuumealani, the land in the air.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lo! on that day, the rainbow pathway was **let down from Nuumealani** and Kaonohiokala and Laieikawai mounted upon that way, and she laid her last commands upon her sisters, the seer, and Laielohelohe; these were her words:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lailai flies to heaven, rests upon &quot;the boughs of the aoa tree in Nuumealani,&quot; and bears the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Legends of Gods and Ghosts](http://www.forgottenbooks.com/readbook_text/Legends_of_Gods_and_Ghosts_Hawaiian_Mythology_1000049143/201) implies that it is an island.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The boy was very angry and said: &quot;You have treated me cruelly, when I only came to see you and to love you. You would have taken my young life for sacrifice. Now you tell me you belong to the temple of my ancestors in Nuu-mea-lani.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ke-au-nini returned on his ocean journey to Nuu-mea-lani." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3718" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="65" RevisionGUID="a4dab410-1cf5-4b54-9400-09b8b3b25542" CreationDate="2015-05-19T22:57:23.087" UserId="183" Comment="added 9 characters in body; edited tags" Text="There is a theme that I found in several folk tales from Ireland to Russia - although mostly in Irish/Celtic stories. It is where a house has supernatural helpers, who do work overnight. However, the rule is to not give them clothes, or they will go away.  &#xD;&#xA;(And yes, we find that back in Harry Potter, with the house elves).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since this seems to be a recurring theme in cultures separated by long distances, I figure it has a hidden meaning - a warning conveyed in somewhat cryptic terms.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My best guess is that it is a warning to not spoil your servants, or else it may go to their heads. Is that right, or is there another meaning? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3719" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="65" RevisionGUID="a4dab410-1cf5-4b54-9400-09b8b3b25542" CreationDate="2015-05-19T22:57:23.087" UserId="183" Comment="added 9 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|comparative|celtic|interpretation|symbolism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3720" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="753" RevisionGUID="79a845b6-5419-4e6b-b365-e19c96103c5b" CreationDate="2015-05-19T23:14:29.657" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3721" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="754" RevisionGUID="97dfd934-9c80-4f9d-80d0-931084a57659" CreationDate="2015-05-19T23:14:29.657" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3722" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="755" RevisionGUID="facaf822-cdd6-451f-90bf-b8eb7b5b6961" CreationDate="2015-05-19T23:15:30.577" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3723" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="756" RevisionGUID="5a9672b3-4177-4fad-8290-4e8cd0d063ce" CreationDate="2015-05-19T23:15:30.577" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3724" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="743" RevisionGUID="32b00610-5a06-4f27-9aa3-1e3304ecf7f3" CreationDate="2015-05-19T23:49:00.273" UserId="42" Comment="Clarifying the title" Text="Where does the story of selling one's soul to the devil first occur in Christian myth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3726" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="740" RevisionGUID="4e8fcbd9-fab3-4253-818e-0a227eaf9192" CreationDate="2015-05-20T00:19:23.740" UserId="183" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="The ancient Greek gods lived on the famous [Mount Olympus](http://www.theoi.com/Kosmos/Olympos.html), which is [an actual mountain in Greece](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Olympus).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Romans borrowed quite a bit of mythology from the Greeks, so I at first assumed that the Roman gods lived somewhere similar, if not in the exact same place (though perhaps with the mountain renamed and moved somewhere else). Strangely enough, though, I have not been able to find any ancient accounts that make that claim - nor any mention of the home of the Roman gods at *all*, save for on a certain (rather untrustworthy and often inaccurate) question-and-answer site.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where did the Roman gods live? Were they said to live on Mount Olympus (or an equivalent place), or was their home somewhere else?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3727" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="754" RevisionGUID="0a18f97f-70b0-4101-8dcf-2eaf80133eb3" CreationDate="2015-05-20T02:31:04.743" UserId="183" Comment="added 116 characters in body" Text="For questions about a story of by Geoffrey of Monmouth detailing one account of the life of Merlin, a Welsh prophet." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3728" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="754" RevisionGUID="0a18f97f-70b0-4101-8dcf-2eaf80133eb3" CreationDate="2015-05-20T02:31:04.743" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 42, 79 edit id of 196" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3729" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="756" RevisionGUID="02126547-d15a-455e-a5b6-315bb17ecb0c" CreationDate="2015-05-20T02:31:09.890" UserId="183" Comment="added 131 characters in body" Text="For questions about myths involving the ability to live forever, often a gift of a being from birth, which is prevalent in deities." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3730" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="756" RevisionGUID="02126547-d15a-455e-a5b6-315bb17ecb0c" CreationDate="2015-05-20T02:31:09.890" Comment="Proposed by 183 approved by 42, 79 edit id of 197" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3733" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="757" RevisionGUID="ab43e680-a804-47db-a19d-87ebc7070f72" CreationDate="2015-05-20T06:49:09.037" UserId="151" Text="Reading through the wiki article on [Jupiter:][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Many of his functions were focused on the Capitoline (&quot;Capitol Hill&quot;), where the citadel was located. He was the chief deity of the early Capitoline Triad with Mars and Quirinus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems that if there were a location, the [Capittoline][2] hill would be it, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Many of his functions were focused on the Capitoline (&quot;Capitol Hill&quot;), where the citadel was located. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems that the Roman's view was closer to the current view of the deity : in the sky ,  and the temples are the house of the god. It is possible that the Olympus version of the indo-European deities  is particular to the region of Greece. That mostly people in other  mediteranean countries had the concept of deity as somewhere in the sky, or sea, or underworld , focused on their temples. The cultural incursion of the greek point of view introduces the need for a &quot;location where Gods gather&quot;,  and the Olympus site was adopted for the Roman gods too. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems also that [Norse mythology][3] has a home for the gods to gather , &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In the middle of the world, high up in the sky is Asgard. It is the home of the gods and goddesses. The male gods in Asgard, are called Aesir, and the female gods are called Asynjur. Odin is the ruler of Asgard, and the chief of the Aesir. Odin is married to Frigg; she is the Queen of the Aesir. Inside the gates of Asgard is Valhalla; it is the place where the Vikings &quot;Einherjer&quot; that died in battle will go for the afterlife.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_%28mythology%29&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitoline_Hill&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.viking-mythology.com/theNineWorlds.php" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3734" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="758" RevisionGUID="eacfbaf9-b853-457e-84f4-0eeff5699f42" CreationDate="2015-05-20T08:16:48.963" UserId="111" Text="There is probably something also to be said about the [**Lares**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lares).  &#xD;&#xA;Those guardian deities (of Etruscan origin) were protecting homes, fields, cities, crossroads, etc. (One *Lar* protecting one home or one field, etc.) and were thought to inhabit to place they were protecting.  &#xD;&#xA;Some literary evidence for this can be found in Plaut's [*Aulularia*](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16564/16564-h/16564-h.htm#Aulularia) for instance:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;LAR FAMILIARIS  &#xD;&#xA;That no one may wonder who I am, I shall inform you briefly. I am the Household God of that family from whose house you saw me come. For many years now I have possessed this dwelling, and preserved it for the sire and grandsire of its present occupant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or in Ovid's [*Fasti*](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/OvidFastiBkFour.htm#BkIVApr21):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They were commanded to move the Lares to their new homes&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or again in Cicero's [*De domo sua*](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0020%3Atext%3DDom.%3Achapter%3D41):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[109] What is there more holy, what is there more carefully fenced round with every description of religious respect, than the house of every individual citizen? here are his altars, here are his hearths, here are his household gods: here all his sacred rites, all his religious ceremonies are preserved&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whether the Lares qualify properly as Gods and not just spirits is to be debated though, since they were basically deified ancestral spirits (in the quotes above the name 'Household God' was only a choice made by the translator as the original text in both case was *lar* or *lares familiaris*)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3735" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="758" RevisionGUID="2eca6637-69a7-46c8-97c4-38d610aad35e" CreationDate="2015-05-20T08:23:41.620" UserId="111" Comment="deleted 154 characters in body" Text="There is probably something also to be said about the [**Lares**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lares) and the [**Penates**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Di_Penates).  &#xD;&#xA;Those guardian deities (of Etruscan origin) were protecting homes, fields, cities, crossroads, etc. (One *Lar* protecting one home or one field, etc.) and were thought to inhabit to place they were protecting.  &#xD;&#xA;Some literary evidence for this can be found in Plaut's [*Aulularia*](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16564/16564-h/16564-h.htm#Aulularia) for instance:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;LAR FAMILIARIS  &#xD;&#xA;That no one may wonder who I am, I shall inform you briefly. I am the Household God of that family from whose house you saw me come. For many years now I have possessed this dwelling, and preserved it for the sire and grandsire of its present occupant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or in Ovid's [*Fasti*](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/OvidFastiBkFour.htm#BkIVApr21):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They were commanded to move the Lares to their new homes&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or again in Cicero's [*De domo sua*](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0020%3Atext%3DDom.%3Achapter%3D41):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[109] What is there more holy, what is there more carefully fenced round with every description of religious respect, than the house of every individual citizen? here are his altars, here are his hearths, here are his household gods: here all his sacred rites, all his religious ceremonies are preserved&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whether the Lares qualify properly as Gods and not just spirits is to be debated though, since they were basically deified ancestral spirits. The Penates however (as in Cicero excerpt) were explicitely called gods." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3736" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="758" RevisionGUID="099114f1-5597-4c29-9709-04c1eba5a773" CreationDate="2015-05-20T08:29:33.387" UserId="111" Comment="deleted 154 characters in body" Text="There is probably something also to be said about the [**Lares**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lares) and the [**Penates**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Di_Penates).  &#xD;&#xA;The Lares, as guardian deities (of Etruscan origin), were protecting homes, fields, cities, crossroads, etc. (One *Lar* protecting one home or one field, etc.) while Penates were specifically protecting household and both were thought to inhabit the place they were protecting.  &#xD;&#xA;Some literary evidence for this can be found in Plaut's [*Aulularia*](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16564/16564-h/16564-h.htm#Aulularia) for instance:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;LAR FAMILIARIS  &#xD;&#xA;That no one may wonder who I am, I shall inform you briefly. I am the Household God of that family from whose house you saw me come. For many years now I have possessed this dwelling, and preserved it for the sire and grandsire of its present occupant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or in Ovid's [*Fasti*](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/OvidFastiBkFour.htm#BkIVApr21):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They were commanded to move the Lares to their new homes&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or again in Cicero's [*De domo sua*](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0020%3Atext%3DDom.%3Achapter%3D41):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[109] What is there more holy, what is there more carefully fenced round with every description of religious respect, than the house of every individual citizen? here are his altars, here are his hearths, here are his household gods: here all his sacred rites, all his religious ceremonies are preserved  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[109 ]quid est sanctius, quid omni religione munitius quam domus unius cuiusque civium? hic arae sunt, hic foci, hic **di penates**, hic sacra, religiones, caerimoniae continentur&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whether the Lares qualify properly as Gods and not just spirits is to be debated though, since they were basically deified ancestral spirits. The Penates however (as in Cicero excerpt) were explicitely called gods." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3737" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="759" RevisionGUID="2fa81ac9-2fef-446c-b765-452ef981bb95" CreationDate="2015-05-20T08:30:27.377" UserId="29" Text="The story of [Theophilus of Adana](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophilus_of_Adana) is indeed the first documented story of a pact of this type:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The subject of the **first recorded story** of a pact with the devil, Theophilus of Adana humbly declined to become bishop of Adana, now in modern Turkey.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; [Historical Dictionary of Witchcraft][1] &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Eythichianus of Adana][2] seems to have been the one to have recorded this story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eutyches, who claimed to be an eyewitness of the events, is the first to record Theophilus’ story. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Theophilus of Adana][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Judging from this and since [Theophilus of Adana](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophilus_of_Adana) lived until ca. 538 AD, it is safe to assume that the story was recorded in the 6th century.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although the story is of an apocryphal nature, [Theophilus of Adana](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophilus_of_Adana) is a historical figure.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Although Theophilus is considered to be an historical personage, the tale associated with him is of an apocryphal nature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Theophilus of Adana][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.gr/books?id=nkSQtU-PSa8C&amp;pg=PA190&amp;lpg=PA190&amp;dq=Theophilus%20of%20Adana&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=2ie9YhF8Gv&amp;sig=O4BhcHbGpTDmg6nLSh3edytA77c&amp;hl=el&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=hjpcVbXdH8aksAGC14HYCw&amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;q=Theophilus%20of%20Adana&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutychianus_of_Adana&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.faust.com/legend/theophilus-of-adana/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3738" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="760" RevisionGUID="b1736483-4c84-4766-ad5f-5d5f17b6d9e7" CreationDate="2015-05-20T09:20:14.673" UserId="29" Text="The meaning of those two ravens is not 100% answered, yet. One possible explanation is as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the Norse shamanic tradition, Odin's ravens represent the powers of necromancy, clairvoyance and telepathy, and they were guides for the dead. This poem expresses a shaman's fear of his loss of magical powers. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt; **The Well of Remembrance by Ralph Metzner, Shambala, Boston, 1994**&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, it is implied the name of one of the ravens is mistranslated:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  **it’s often claimed that Munin’s name means “Memory,” but for this to be so, it would have to be derived from minni**, “memory,” **rather than munr, “desire.”** The latter, however, is by far the more parsimonious derivation; if the former were the case, we should expect Munin’s Old Norse name to have been something like “Minninn” rather than “Muninn.” Moreover, **the above verse from the Grímnismál makes much more sense if Munin’s name means “Desire” rather than “Memory”** it’s often claimed that Munin’s name means “Memory,” but for this to be so, it would have to be derived from minni, “memory,” rather than munr, “desire.” The latter, however, is by far the more parsimonious derivation; **if the former were the case, we should expect Munin’s Old Norse name to have been something like “Minninn” rather than “Muninn.”** Moreover, the above verse from the Grímnismál makes much more sense if Munin’s name means “Desire” rather than “Memory”.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Norse Mythology for Smart People][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another possible explanation is the following:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Anthony Winterbourne** connects Huginn and Muninn to the Norse concepts **of the fylgja—a concept with three characteristics; shape-shifting abilities, good fortune, and the guardian spirit—and the hamingja—the ghostly double of a person that may appear in the form of an animal.** Winterbourne states that “**The shaman’s journey through the different parts of the cosmos is symbolized by the hamingja concept of the shape-shifting soul, and gains another symbolic dimension for the Norse soul in the account of Oðin’s ravens, Huginn and Muninn.”** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt; [My Travels with Huggin and Munnin][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, [Rudolf Simek][3] has an entirely different point to make, saying that the names of the ravens were only used in later times:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Rudolf Simek is critical of the approach**, stating that **&quot;attempts have been made to interpret Odin's ravens as a personification of the god's intellectual powers, but this can only be assumed from the names Huginn and Muninn themselves which were unlikely to have been invented much before the 9th or 10th centuries&quot;** yet that the two ravens, as Odin's companions, appear to derive from much earlier times. **Instead, Simek connects Huginn and Muninn with wider raven symbolism in the Germanic world, including the Raven Banner (described in English chronicles and Scandinavian sagas), a banner which was woven in a method that allowed it, when fluttering in the wind, to appear as if the raven depicted upon it was beating its wings.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/others/hugin-and-munin/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://ljmoore.wordpress.com/2013/03/16/my-travels-with-huginn-and-muninn/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Simek&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huginn_and_Muninn#Theories" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3739" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="760" RevisionGUID="72324d20-4b4f-4eef-a59b-05695f8f8b41" CreationDate="2015-05-20T09:25:16.113" UserId="29" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="##The meaning of those two ravens is not 100% answered, yet. One possible explanation is as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the Norse shamanic tradition, Odin's ravens represent the powers of necromancy, clairvoyance and telepathy, and they were guides for the dead. This poem expresses a shaman's fear of his loss of magical powers. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt; **The Well of Remembrance by Ralph Metzner, Shambala, Boston, 1994**&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, it is implied the name of one of the ravens is mistranslated:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  **it’s often claimed that Munin’s name means “Memory,” but for this to be so, it would have to be derived from minni**, “memory,” **rather than munr, “desire.”** The latter, however, is by far the more parsimonious derivation; if the former were the case, we should expect Munin’s Old Norse name to have been something like “Minninn” rather than “Muninn.” Moreover, **the above verse from the Grímnismál makes much more sense if Munin’s name means “Desire” rather than “Memory”** it’s often claimed that Munin’s name means “Memory,” but for this to be so, it would have to be derived from minni, “memory,” rather than munr, “desire.” The latter, however, is by far the more parsimonious derivation; **if the former were the case, we should expect Munin’s Old Norse name to have been something like “Minninn” rather than “Muninn.”** Moreover, the above verse from the Grímnismál makes much more sense if Munin’s name means “Desire” rather than “Memory”.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Norse Mythology for Smart People][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another possible explanation is the following:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Anthony Winterbourne** connects Huginn and Muninn to the Norse concepts **of the fylgja—a concept with three characteristics; shape-shifting abilities, good fortune, and the guardian spirit—and the hamingja—the ghostly double of a person that may appear in the form of an animal.** Winterbourne states that “**The shaman’s journey through the different parts of the cosmos is symbolized by the hamingja concept of the shape-shifting soul, and gains another symbolic dimension for the Norse soul in the account of Oðin’s ravens, Huginn and Muninn.”** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt; [My Travels with Huggin and Munnin][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, [Rudolf Simek][3] has an entirely different point to make, saying that the names of the ravens were only used in later times:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Rudolf Simek is critical of the approach**, stating that **&quot;attempts have been made to interpret Odin's ravens as a personification of the god's intellectual powers, but this can only be assumed from the names Huginn and Muninn themselves which were unlikely to have been invented much before the 9th or 10th centuries&quot;** yet that the two ravens, as Odin's companions, appear to derive from much earlier times. **Instead, Simek connects Huginn and Muninn with wider raven symbolism in the Germanic world, including the Raven Banner (described in English chronicles and Scandinavian sagas), a banner which was woven in a method that allowed it, when fluttering in the wind, to appear as if the raven depicted upon it was beating its wings.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/others/hugin-and-munin/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://ljmoore.wordpress.com/2013/03/16/my-travels-with-huginn-and-muninn/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Simek&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huginn_and_Muninn#Theories" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3740" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="750" RevisionGUID="39686321-47c1-49d6-ba5c-ae37af5c2c6f" CreationDate="2015-05-20T09:33:25.837" UserId="29" Comment="added 305 characters in body" Text="It's true, [Loki][1] is believed to have been a god of fire, before being considered a trickster god. But, as [Karl Seigfried][2] tells us:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The “god of fire” idea is a famous mistake that is due to the similarity between the names Loki and Logi, the latter being a personification of fire in the well-known story of Thor’s visit to the giant Útgarða-Loki. The connection to fire was popularized by the composer Richard Wagner in his Ring operas, in which he portrayed Loki as a sort of fire-sprite named Loge.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Norse Mythology Blog][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;###So, is he just a trickster god? No, he was neither a fire god, nor a trickster god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Loki is not referred to by either of these titles in the source texts of Norse mythology. Rudolf Simek calls him “a god without a function,” and all the major scholars of Norse mythology and religion agree that Loki was never actually worshiped in ancient times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Norse Mythology Blog][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Someone could say that whether or not he was worshipped could be a matter of conflict among historians, but it seems noone disagrees with this view:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##[John Lindow][5]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In Runemarks’ character list, all the gods and goddesses are defined by their (antagonistic) relationships with Loki. He appears more in both novels than any of the Æsir or Vanir. John Lindow writes that **“[e]veryone agrees that there was never any cult of Loki,”** yet he is a favorite fictional character today.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Interview with Joanne Harris][6]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##[Ellis Davidson][7]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;(...) for there is no evidence of his worship among men (...)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Gods and Myths of Northern Europe][8]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##[Gabriel Turville-Petre][9]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There is nothing to suggest that Loki was ever worshipped.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##[Rudolf Simek][10]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;There was no cult of Loki, and place-names based on his name are equally unknown.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_E._H._Seigfried&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.norsemyth.org/2013/01/questioning-loki-part-one.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.norsemyth.org/2013/01/questioning-loki-part-one.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lindow&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.joanne-harris.co.uk/books/the-gospel-of-loki/read-the-interview-from-the-norse-mythology-blog-with-dr-karl-seigfried/&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilda_Ellis_Davidson&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://books.google.gr/books?id=rkwXBwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT101&amp;lpg=PT101&amp;dq=There%20is%20no%20evidence%20of%20[Loki%27s]%20worship%20among%20men.&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=F5oEeajrrW&amp;sig=c_U4Cc4AQ6RyPUqz4Kml8BNqe5U&amp;hl=el&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=Yo1bVcf7JaKjyAOn_4DADQ&amp;ved=0CEQQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&amp;q=There%20is%20no%20evidence%20of%20[Loki%27s]%20worship%20among%20men.&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel_Turville-Petre&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Simek" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3742" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="761" RevisionGUID="e7cefda0-c390-40cf-b958-99209c9918f0" CreationDate="2015-05-20T10:37:50.107" UserId="53" Text="According to most versions of the myth, the reign has not ended.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;No version explicitly states how long the physical reign of Arthur lasted.  That is almost certainly deliberate, in order to maintain some mysticism.  There are no texts that give an age for Arthur or any of the other protagonists at Camlan or after.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Malory is the best known source that describes Arthur as *Rex Quondam Rex Futurus* - The Once And Future King.  This is also evidenced on his tombstone at Glastonbury, although of course some doubt its authenticity.  This indicates that the spiritual reign continues, even if the physical reign has been suspended.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The myth as it is still known in the West Country is that Arthur will rise again from Avalon in England's hour of greatest need and save the day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![King Arthur's Gravestone][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/oZBC1.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3743" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="762" RevisionGUID="d1a05a7f-a4e1-4e5d-be5c-5bcfafb7b9ab" CreationDate="2015-05-20T11:40:48.350" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3744" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="763" RevisionGUID="b79b9b3e-8b92-4e62-8649-cf9aeb9340c3" CreationDate="2015-05-20T11:40:48.350" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3745" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="475" RevisionGUID="67df749e-4708-47a7-ab9f-04ca93526ac8" CreationDate="2015-05-20T13:22:10.853" UserId="29" Comment="added 895 characters in body" Text="Most gods die during the battle together with the evil and the two people are left to repopulate the world. [The Children of Odin][1] addresses the event in an easily comprehensible way:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; What said Odin to the Gods and to the Champions who surrounded him?&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&quot;We will give our lives and let our world be destroyed, but we will&#xD;&#xA;&gt; battle so that these evil powers will not live after us.&quot;** Out of Hel's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ship sprang Fenrir the Wolf. His mouth gaped; his lower jaw hung&#xD;&#xA;&gt; against the earth, and his upper jaw scraped the sky. Against the Wolf&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Odin All-Father fought. Thor might not aid him, for Thor had now to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; encounter Jörmungand, the monstrous serpent.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; By Fenrir the Wolf **Odin was slain**. But the younger Gods were now&#xD;&#xA;&gt; advancing to the battle; and Vidar, the Silent God, came face to face&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with Fenrir. He laid his foot on the Wolf's lower jaw, that foot that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; had on the sandal made of all the scraps of leather that shoemakers&#xD;&#xA;&gt; had laid by for him, and with his hands he seized the upper jaw and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tore his gullet. **Thus died Fenrir**, the fiercest of all the enemies of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Gods.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jörmungand, the monstrous serpent, would have overwhelmed all with the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; venom he was ready to pour forth. But Thor sprang forward and crushed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him with a stroke of his hammer Miölnir. **Then Thor stepped back nine&#xD;&#xA;&gt; paces. But the serpent blew his venom over him, and blinded and choked&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and burnt, Thor, the World's Defender, perished.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Loki sprang from his ship and strove with Heimdall, the Warder of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Rainbow Bridge and the Watcher for the Gods. **Loki slew Heimdall and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was slain by him.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Bravely fought Tyr, the God who had sacrificed his swordhand for the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; binding of the Wolf. Bravely he fought, and many of the powers of evil&#xD;&#xA;&gt; perished by his strong left hand. **But Garm, the hound with bloody&#xD;&#xA;&gt; jaws, slew Tyr.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[The Children of Odin][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The text goes on many deaths take place. Together with the gods, the evil also dies, which is what Odin was striving for.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After [Ragnarok][3]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Deep in a wood two of human kind were left; the fire of Surtur did not touch them; they slept, and when they wakened the world was green and beautiful again. These two fed on the dews of the morning; a woman and a man they were, Lif and Lifthrasir. They walked abroad in the world, and from them and from their children came the men and women who spread themselves over the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[The Children of Odin][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But some of the gods survive as well:&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Other survivors of Ragnarok included some of the gods, particularly Odin's brother Honir, Odin's sons Vidar and Vali, Thor's sons Modi and Magni. Another of Odin's sons, Balder, was revived from the dead after the battle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Ancient Mythology][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The surviving gods talk to each other about Ragnarok:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gods. The runes told them of a heaven that was above Asgard, of Gimli, that was untouched by Surtur's fire. Vili and Ve, Will and Holiness, ruled in it. Baldur and Hödur came from Hela's habitation, and the Gods sat on the peak together and held speech with each other, calling to mind the secrets and the happenings they had known before Ragnarök, the Twilight of the Gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[The Children of Odin][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0025VKZFM/?tag=stackoverfl08-20&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://sacred-texts.com/neu/ice/coo/coo36.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar%C3%B6k&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://sacred-texts.com/neu/ice/coo/coo36.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.ancient-mythology.com/norse/ragnarok.php" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3746" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="763" RevisionGUID="d03cead3-cacf-4f81-9c06-e62ac4d2e84f" CreationDate="2015-05-20T14:09:59.977" UserId="53" Comment="added 108 characters in body" Text="Rapa Nui, or Easter Island, a remote island in the Pacific Ocean famous for the Moai, ancient carved statues" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3747" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="763" RevisionGUID="d03cead3-cacf-4f81-9c06-e62ac4d2e84f" CreationDate="2015-05-20T14:09:59.977" Comment="Proposed by 53 approved by 29, 11 edit id of 198" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3755" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="764" RevisionGUID="e6f2ebef-f1a1-4d93-a638-b6498ff34e0c" CreationDate="2015-05-20T16:44:47.040" UserId="42" Text="It appears the Theophilus of Adana is, indeed, the first known instance of this myth.  Dating the origin of the myth was a bit harder for me to establish.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is claimed to have been written by Eutychianus of Adana, but the claim seems questionable to me, and, I've come to find out, others as well.  [&quot;A Dictionary of Christian Biography, Literature, Sects and Doctrines&quot;](https://books.google.com/books?id=O945AQAAMAAJ&amp;pg=PA1009&amp;lpg=PA1009&amp;dq=Eutychianus+of+Adana&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=BJTu4ixlU8&amp;sig=qpqfq37n8w4L1ZpUooC1lD3COrg&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=k6ZcVeHuJ4baoATgq4DICA&amp;ved=0CDYQ6AEwBA#v=snippet&amp;q=eutychianus&amp;f=false) sources the story to the biography of Eutychianus of Adana (apparently a part of the Acta Sanctorum), but calls it's veracity into questions: &quot;Cave, however, questions the authenticity of this biography.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Sources of the Faust Tradition](https://books.google.com/books?id=_psuAgAAQBAJ&amp;printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false) By Robert P. More, Philip M. Palmer state the the last paragraph of the translated story, which provides that accounting of authorship, was likely added by the story's scribe to help authenticity:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Most of the Theophilus scholars are of the opinion that Eutychianus was more probably a scribe who elaborated the original legend and added the final paragraph in order to make the whole more plausible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The authors state the 6th century dating for the story is possible, but that the first version was probably written:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; between 650 and 850 A.D.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With 850 AD being the approximate timing of a more readily verified latin translation, by Paulus Diaconus of Naples.  The deal with the devil from this translation (then translated into english) in the same paper, is as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The devil then said : &quot;How shall I give help to him, a man serving his God?  But if he will be my servant and be counter among out hosts, I will aid him so that he may do more than before and rule over all, even the bishop.&quot;  And the perverted Jew said to the wretched steward : &quot;Didst thou hear what he hath said to thee?&quot;  And he replied : &quot;I have heard and whatsoever he shall say to me, I will do so long as he helps me.&quot;  And he began to kill the feet of the prince and to implore him.  The devil said to the Jew : &quot;Let him deny the son of Mary and those things which are offensive to me, and let him set down in writing that he denieth absolutely, and whatsoever he may desire he shall obtain from me, so long as he denieth.&quot;  Then Satan entered into the steward and he replied : &quot;I deny Christ and His mother.&quot;  And making a written statement and putting wax on it, he sealed it with his own ring and the two went away rejoicing greatly at his perdition." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3756" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="759" RevisionGUID="33bf0b00-afa7-47b9-a462-0c9b84308864" CreationDate="2015-05-20T16:46:23.163" UserId="29" Comment="added 1251 characters in body" Text="The story of [Theophilus of Adana](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophilus_of_Adana) is indeed the first documented story of a pact of this type:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The subject of the **first recorded story** of a pact with the devil, Theophilus of Adana humbly declined to become bishop of Adana, now in modern Turkey.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; [Historical Dictionary of Witchcraft][1] &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Eythichianus of Adana][2] seems to have been the one to have recorded this story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eutyches, who claimed to be an eyewitness of the events, is the first to record Theophilus’ story. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Theophilus of Adana][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Judging from this and since [Theophilus of Adana](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophilus_of_Adana) lived until ca. 538 AD, it is safe to assume that the story was recorded in the 6th century.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although the story is of an apocryphal nature, [Theophilus of Adana](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophilus_of_Adana) is a historical figure.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Although Theophilus is considered to be an historical personage, the tale associated with him is of an apocryphal nature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Theophilus of Adana][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems the authorship of Eythichianus is accepted by the Church as factual:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Του Βίου του Θεοφίλου Αδάνων της Κιλικίας, ον συνέγραψεν ο σύγχρονος αυτού Ευτυχιανός, η υπό του Παύλου διακόνου λατινική μετάφρασις υπάρχει εν τοις Acta SS. Februarii 1, 483 έ.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The life of Theophilus of Adana of Cilicia, **which was written by his contemporary Eythichianus**, is translated in Latin by Paul and is to be found in Acta SS. Februarii 1.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Ιστορία της Βυζαντινής Λογοτεχνίας][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By having a look in [Acta Sanctorum][6]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;DE THEOPHILO POENITENTE&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Auctore Eutychiano&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; interprete Paulo Diacolo Neapoleos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Acta Sanctorum][7]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.gr/books?id=nkSQtU-PSa8C&amp;pg=PA190&amp;lpg=PA190&amp;dq=Theophilus%20of%20Adana&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=2ie9YhF8Gv&amp;sig=O4BhcHbGpTDmg6nLSh3edytA77c&amp;hl=el&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=hjpcVbXdH8aksAGC14HYCw&amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;q=Theophilus%20of%20Adana&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutychianus_of_Adana&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.faust.com/legend/theophilus-of-adana/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.faust.com/legend/theophilus-of-adana/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://books.google.gr/books?id=GuzOBQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA375&amp;lpg=PA375&amp;dq=%CE%95%CF%85%CF%84%CF%85%CF%87%CE%B9%CE%B1%CE%BD%CF%8C%CF%82%20%CF%84%CF%89%CE%BD%20%CE%B1%CE%B4%CE%AC%CE%BD%CF%89%CE%BD&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=PCMnr0-QAM&amp;sig=pRziXyJp0qAD1lagjApOiAR6Ud8&amp;hl=el&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=WK9cVffFIcX4ywOL84CoAg&amp;ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&amp;q=%CE%95%CF%85%CF%84%CF%85%CF%87%CE%B9%CE%B1%CE%BD%CF%8C%CF%82%20&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acta_Sanctorum&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://archive.org/stream/actasanctorum04unse#page/488/mode/2up" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3757" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="759" RevisionGUID="6c7702f0-7a2a-4af6-a006-118745f46c2c" CreationDate="2015-05-20T16:52:53.213" UserId="29" Comment="edited body" Text="The story of [Theophilus of Adana](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophilus_of_Adana) is indeed the first documented story of a pact of this type:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The subject of the **first recorded story** of a pact with the devil, Theophilus of Adana humbly declined to become bishop of Adana, now in modern Turkey.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; [Historical Dictionary of Witchcraft][1] &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Eythichianus of Adana][2] seems to have been the one to have recorded this story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eutyches, who claimed to be an eyewitness of the events, is the first to record Theophilus’ story. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Theophilus of Adana][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Judging from this and since [Theophilus of Adana](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophilus_of_Adana) lived until ca. 538 AD, it is safe to assume that the story was recorded in the 6th century.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although the story is of an apocryphal nature, [Theophilus of Adana](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophilus_of_Adana) is a historical figure.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Although Theophilus is considered to be an historical personage, the tale associated with him is of an apocryphal nature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Theophilus of Adana][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems the authorship of Eythichianus is accepted by the Church as factual:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Του Βίου του Θεοφίλου Αδάνων της Κιλικίας, ον συνέγραψεν ο σύγχρονος αυτού Ευτυχιανός, η υπό του Παύλου διακόνου λατινική μετάφρασις υπάρχει εν τοις Acta SS. Februarii 1, 483 έ.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The life of Theophilus of Adana of Cilicia, **which was written by his contemporary Eythichianus**, is translated in Latin by Paul and is to be found in Acta SS. Februarii 1.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Ιστορία της Βυζαντινής Λογοτεχνίας][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By having a look in [Acta Sanctorum][6]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;DE THEOPHILO POENITENTE&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Auctore Eutychiano&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; interprete Paulo Diacono Neapoleos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Acta Sanctorum][7]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.gr/books?id=nkSQtU-PSa8C&amp;pg=PA190&amp;lpg=PA190&amp;dq=Theophilus%20of%20Adana&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=2ie9YhF8Gv&amp;sig=O4BhcHbGpTDmg6nLSh3edytA77c&amp;hl=el&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=hjpcVbXdH8aksAGC14HYCw&amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;q=Theophilus%20of%20Adana&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutychianus_of_Adana&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.faust.com/legend/theophilus-of-adana/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.faust.com/legend/theophilus-of-adana/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://books.google.gr/books?id=GuzOBQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA375&amp;lpg=PA375&amp;dq=%CE%95%CF%85%CF%84%CF%85%CF%87%CE%B9%CE%B1%CE%BD%CF%8C%CF%82%20%CF%84%CF%89%CE%BD%20%CE%B1%CE%B4%CE%AC%CE%BD%CF%89%CE%BD&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=PCMnr0-QAM&amp;sig=pRziXyJp0qAD1lagjApOiAR6Ud8&amp;hl=el&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=WK9cVffFIcX4ywOL84CoAg&amp;ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&amp;q=%CE%95%CF%85%CF%84%CF%85%CF%87%CE%B9%CE%B1%CE%BD%CF%8C%CF%82%20&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acta_Sanctorum&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://archive.org/stream/actasanctorum04unse#page/488/mode/2up" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3758" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="765" RevisionGUID="fc95f8c0-dc84-4e36-8bf4-cb8873e92edd" CreationDate="2015-05-20T18:59:20.693" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="I've been reading a lot of Native American mythology, and I've noticed that horses play a prominent role in several stories. For example:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Looking around, she saw a great white horse with black eyes. He had a long white mane, and he pranced above the ground, not on the earth itself. She saw that the bridle was white too, and that the saddle was white. And there was a young man sitting on the horse. The young man's moccasins and leggings and clothing were all white.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Diné Bahaneʼ][1]. This isn't the [only example][2] of horses in navajo or other native american mythology.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What surprised me is that horses are not native to north america, but were brought over by Europeans:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The disappearance of the horse from the Western Hemisphere for 10,000 years supports the position that today's American wild horses should not be considered &quot;native.&quot;  American wild horses are descended from domestic horses, some of which were brought over by European explorers in the late 15th and 16th centuries, plus others that were released or escaped captivity in modern times.  Over this 500-year period, these horses (and burros) have adapted successfully to the Western range.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Bureau of Land Management][3])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If horses are not native to America, how and why did they become integrated in Navajo (and other Native American) mythology? And why aren't other European artefacts, like guns, integrated the same way? I can't find any stories where non-europeans use guns, but horses seem to have been absorbed into the culture so much that it features prominently in the Navajo *creation* myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/nam/nav/omni/omni04.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/nam/nav/nt/nt6.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/whbprogram/history_and_facts/myths_and_facts.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3759" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="765" RevisionGUID="fc95f8c0-dc84-4e36-8bf4-cb8873e92edd" CreationDate="2015-05-20T18:59:20.693" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="How did horses become integrated into navajo mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3760" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="765" RevisionGUID="fc95f8c0-dc84-4e36-8bf4-cb8873e92edd" CreationDate="2015-05-20T18:59:20.693" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="|native-american|navajo|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3761" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="766" RevisionGUID="9d4e6ce3-49a1-43d7-ad5d-0c4553d4ee69" CreationDate="2015-05-20T19:05:00.887" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="In Edith Hamilton's Mythology it speaks of several sea gods and river gods. Was Poseidon ruler over all of these? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3762" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="766" RevisionGUID="9d4e6ce3-49a1-43d7-ad5d-0c4553d4ee69" CreationDate="2015-05-20T19:05:00.887" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="Does Poseidon rule over all the sea gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3763" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="766" RevisionGUID="9d4e6ce3-49a1-43d7-ad5d-0c4553d4ee69" CreationDate="2015-05-20T19:05:00.887" UserDisplayName="user28" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3770" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="713" RevisionGUID="c4c57941-e613-43a4-9433-055b5715a654" CreationDate="2015-05-20T19:46:35.230" UserId="42" Comment="added 436 characters in body" Text="The Descent of Inanna (Ishtar) was unearthed from 1889 - 1900, but as far as I can tell, it wasn't really considered that well reconstructed until around the 1940s or later.  Early published versions were generally based on less complete information, and had to make assumptions that turned out incorrect, especially with regards to Dumuzi's (Tammuz) role in the story (See: or Kramer's explanation of the decipherment in [the this print version](http://www.amazon.com/Inanna-Queen-Heaven-Earth-Stories/dp/0060908548), and also [&quot;Tammuz and the Bible&quot;](http://www.jstor.org/stable/3265029)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I will be using [Wolkstein and Kramer's translation](http://www.amazon.com/Inanna-Queen-Heaven-Earth-Stories/dp/0060908548) of the text, published in 1983.  Both because it's excellent and well-explained, and because it's the one sitting on my desk.  [Full text here.](http://people.uncw.edu/deagona/myth/Descent%20Of%20Inanna.pdf)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, we could take Inanna (Ishtar) at her word.  Her overt reason is given:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Inanna answered:  &#xD;&#xA;&quot;Because . . . of my older sister, Ereshkigal,  &#xD;&#xA;Her husband, Gugulanna, the Bull of Heaven, has died.  &#xD;&#xA;I have come to witness the funeral rites.  &#xD;&#xA;Let the beer of his funeral rites be poured into the cup.  &#xD;&#xA;Let it be done.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That, however, is just the excuse she gives at the gate.  It doesn't seem likely this is her real reason for the trip.  More likely the real reason is shown here:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; From the Great Above she opened her ear to the Great Below.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; From the Great Above the goddess opened her ear to the Great Below.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; From the Great Above Inanna opened her ear to the Great Below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which gives us the hint that she has heard the Great Below, the underworld, in some way.  Wolkstein's explanations, however, give us more to go on:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Inanna is the Queen of Heaven and Earth, but she does not know the underworld.  Until her ear opens to the Great Below, her understanding is necessarily limited.  In Sumerian, the word for ear and wisdom is the same ... In order to fully appreciate or &quot;know&quot;  what is said or meant, a great understanding is needed - an understanding of all things.  It is the Great Below, and knowledge of death and rebirth, life and stasis, that will make Inanna an &quot;Honored Counselor&quot; and a guide to the land.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So Inanna, already powerful and knowledgeable of Heaven and Earth, needs to acquire knowledge of death and the underworld to be complete in her wisdom.  This is further supported later, from the statement of Enlil, when hearing that Inanna has not returned from the underworld:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;My daughter craved the Great Above.  &#xD;&#xA;Inanna craved the Great Below.  &#xD;&#xA;She who receives the *me* of the underworld does not return.  &#xD;&#xA;She who goes to the Dark City stays there.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here Enlil (and later, Nanna, in an identical statement) states that Inanna has gone seeking the *me* of the underworld.  [*me* is a tricky word](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/726/what-is-the-meaning-of-the-word-me-in-the-descent-of-inanna) that most translators refuse to translate, and too much can be said about it to address completely here.  Suffice to say, the *me* represent knowledge and wisdom.  So, the gods know that she has gone seeking that knowledge that can only be gained in the underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To go just one more step, a *very popular* interpretation of the text is through a Jungian lens.  Just to hit the main points very briefly.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The goal of gaining wisdom of the underworld, to complement the wisdom of the heavens and of the earth, speaks of Inanna becoming complete, but this interpretation views it, instead of her completing her body of knowledge, she is completing herself, developing into a *whole* person (goddess).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this light, we see Inanna and her sister Ereshkigal as part of the same whole person.  In order to become complete, Inanna must become vulnerable, and face the dark side of herself (Ereshkigal), die and be reborn.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Inanna abandons her temples on the way to the underworld, and has to leave her crown, robe and other vestments (also *me*, like I said, complicated) at the gates of the underworld.  She arrives naked, powerless and vulnerable.  The death and rebirth are fairly clear to be read, but of particular interest is that after Inanna's death, and preparing for rebirth, Ereshkigal is in pain &quot;With the cries of a woman about to give birth.&quot;  Which does rather speak to the interpretation of being reborn from her darker half." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3771" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="765" RevisionGUID="57838b06-8737-4af3-8512-28c76aa5eea0" CreationDate="2015-05-20T20:23:24.333" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 1 character in body; edited title" Text="I've been reading a lot of Native American mythology, and I've noticed that horses play a prominent role in several stories. For example:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Looking around, she saw a great white horse with black eyes. He had a long white mane, and he pranced above the ground, not on the earth itself. She saw that the bridle was white too, and that the saddle was white. And there was a young man sitting on the horse. The young man's moccasins and leggings and clothing were all white.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Diné Bahaneʼ][1]. This isn't the [only example][2] of horses in Navajo or other Native American mythology.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What surprised me is that horses are not native to North America, but were brought over by Europeans:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The disappearance of the horse from the Western Hemisphere for 10,000 years supports the position that today's American wild horses should not be considered &quot;native.&quot; American wild horses are descended from domestic horses, some of which were brought over by European explorers in the late 15th and 16th centuries, plus others that were released or escaped captivity in modern times. Over this 500-year period, these horses (and burros) have adapted successfully to the Western range.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Bureau of Land Management][3])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If horses are not native to America, how and why did they become integrated in Navajo (and other Native American) mythology? And why aren't other European artefacts, like guns, integrated the same way? I can't find any stories where non-Europeans use guns, but horses seem to have been absorbed into the culture so much that it features prominently in the Navajo *creation* myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/nam/nav/omni/omni04.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/nam/nav/nt/nt6.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/whbprogram/history_and_facts/myths_and_facts.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3772" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="765" RevisionGUID="57838b06-8737-4af3-8512-28c76aa5eea0" CreationDate="2015-05-20T20:23:24.333" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 1 character in body; edited title" Text="How did horses become integrated into Navajo mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3776" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="750" RevisionGUID="9849239d-1792-4507-ba50-0c4b4cf940bc" CreationDate="2015-05-20T20:53:12.390" UserId="29" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body" Text="It's true, [Loki][1] is believed to have been a god of fire, before being considered a trickster god. But, as [Karl Seigfried][2] tells us:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The “god of fire” idea is a famous mistake that is due to the similarity between the names Loki and Logi, the latter being a personification of fire in the well-known story of Thor’s visit to the giant Útgarða-Loki. The connection to fire was popularized by the composer Richard Wagner in his Ring operas, in which he portrayed Loki as a sort of fire-sprite named Loge.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Norse Mythology Blog][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;###So, is he just a trickster god? No, he was neither a fire god, nor a trickster god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Loki is not referred to by either of these titles in the source texts of Norse mythology. Rudolf Simek calls him “a god without a function,” and all the major scholars of Norse mythology and religion agree that Loki was never actually worshiped in ancient times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Norse Mythology Blog][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Someone could say that whether or not he was worshipped could be a matter of conflict among historians, but it seems noone disagrees with this view:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##[John Lindow][5]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In Runemarks’ character list, all the gods and goddesses are defined by their (antagonistic) relationships with Loki. He appears more in both novels than any of the Æsir or Vanir. John Lindow writes that **“[e]veryone agrees that there was never any cult of Loki,”** yet he is a favorite fictional character today.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Interview with Joanne Harris][6]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##[Ellis Davidson][7]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;(...) for there is no evidence of his worship among men (...)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Gods and Myths of Northern Europe][8]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##[Gabriel Turville-Petre][9]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There is nothing to suggest that Loki was ever worshipped.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##[Rudolf Simek][10]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;There was no cult of Loki, and place-names based on his name are equally unknown.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_E._H._Seigfried&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.norsemyth.org/2013/01/questioning-loki-part-one.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.norsemyth.org/2013/01/questioning-loki-part-one.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lindow&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.joanne-harris.co.uk/books/the-gospel-of-loki/read-the-interview-from-the-norse-mythology-blog-with-dr-karl-seigfried/&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilda_Ellis_Davidson&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://books.google.gr/books?id=rkwXBwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT101&amp;lpg=PT101&amp;dq=There%20is%20no%20evidence%20of%20[Loki%27s]%20worship%20among%20men.&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=F5oEeajrrW&amp;sig=c_U4Cc4AQ6RyPUqz4Kml8BNqe5U&amp;hl=el&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=Yo1bVcf7JaKjyAOn_4DADQ&amp;ved=0CEQQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&amp;q=There%20is%20no%20evidence%20of%20[Loki%27s]%20worship%20among%20men.&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel_Turville-Petre&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Simek" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3777" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="766" RevisionGUID="e6e2f78c-a468-4350-9185-568afa0d72ad" CreationDate="2015-05-20T21:54:29.637" UserId="42" Comment="added 76 characters in body" Text="In [Edith Hamilton's Mythology](http://www.amazon.com/Mythology-Timeless-Tales-Gods-Heroes/dp/0446574759) it speaks of several sea gods and river gods. Was Poseidon ruler over all of these? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3778" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="630" RevisionGUID="b476b574-506e-4e41-9915-6260c1fc283b" CreationDate="2015-05-20T22:04:34.757" UserId="183" Comment="4" />
  <row Id="3779" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="766" RevisionGUID="db7f8c19-083e-4eb8-a0a8-d2cb8f3a59cf" CreationDate="2015-05-20T22:16:20.083" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="made the question clearer" Text="According to [Edith Hamilton's Mythology](http://www.amazon.com/Mythology-Timeless-Tales-Gods-Heroes/dp/0446574759), there are several sea gods and river gods. Since [Poseidon is one of the twelve main greed god(desses)][1], is he the ruler of or otherwise in charge of those sea and river gods?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/146/why-were-there-exactly-12-main-olympian-gods" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3780" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="766" RevisionGUID="56016bf7-cd18-4da7-841b-1cf1c5ac4630" CreationDate="2015-05-20T22:22:15.673" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited body" Text="According to [Edith Hamilton's Mythology](http://www.amazon.com/Mythology-Timeless-Tales-Gods-Heroes/dp/0446574759), there are several sea gods and river gods. Since [Poseidon is one of the twelve main greek god(desses)][1], is he the ruler of or otherwise in charge of those sea and river gods?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/146/why-were-there-exactly-12-main-olympian-gods" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3781" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="769" RevisionGUID="f8b1239f-0045-4858-afd2-0e3a50089a05" CreationDate="2015-05-20T22:24:31.643" UserId="42" Text="The Tain fairly often specifies specific geographical locations as the settings for it's events.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [final battle of the Tain](http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/Muster.html), Fergus is convinced to turn from the battle and expend his anger on the hills, to spare the men of Ulster.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thus it was with that sword, which was the sword of Fergus: The sword of Fergus, the sword of Letè from Faery: Whenever he desired to strike with it, it became the size of a rainbow in the air. Thereupon Fergus turned his hand slantwise over the heads of the hosts, so that he smote the three tops of the three hills, so that they are still visible on the moor, and these are the three Maels ('the Balds') of Meath.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [meaning of Mael](http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/m%C3%A1el) here seems to be &quot;flat-topped hillock&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This takes place on a plain [referred to as](http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/Array.html) &quot;the wide plain of Meath&quot;, which I would be assume is somewhere around the historic [Kingdom of Meath](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Meath), and generally between Connacht and the Ulaid.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does this story explain the creation of some known geographic feature?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3782" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="769" RevisionGUID="f8b1239f-0045-4858-afd2-0e3a50089a05" CreationDate="2015-05-20T22:24:31.643" UserId="42" Text="Where are the three Maels of Meath" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3783" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="769" RevisionGUID="f8b1239f-0045-4858-afd2-0e3a50089a05" CreationDate="2015-05-20T22:24:31.643" UserId="42" Text="|irish|ulster-cycle|tain-bo-cuailnge|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3784" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="770" RevisionGUID="e883cf9f-072d-484f-b063-86467f1812f1" CreationDate="2015-05-20T22:32:54.663" UserId="183" Text="According to the ever-helpful [theoi.com](http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Poseidon.html) (emphasis mine),&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Being the ruler of the sea (the Mediterranean), he is described as gathering clouds and calling forth storms, but at the same he has it in his power to grant a successful voyage and save those who are in danger, and **all other marine divinities are subject to him.** As the sea surrounds and holds the earth, he himself is described as the god who holds the earth (gaiêochos), and who has it in his power to shake the earth (enosichthôn, kinêtêr gas).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That just so happens to be one of the only parts of the page lacking in-line citations. Go figure. However, it later quotes *Aelian, On Animals 12. 45 (trans. Schofield) (Greek natural history C2nd to 3rd A.D.)* (emphasis mine):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This is the hymn: **‘Highest of the gods, lord of the sea,**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On [another page](http://www.theoi.com/greek-mythology/sea-gods.html), it explicitly says:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The ancient Greek term for sea gods was &quot;Theoi Halioi&quot; or &quot;Theoi Einalioi.&quot; These deities were commanded by the Sea-King Poseidon and his queen Amphitrite. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3785" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="770" RevisionGUID="bf83e336-5881-45a7-9c80-9fa3fc21dfc3" CreationDate="2015-05-20T22:41:31.527" UserId="183" Comment="added 234 characters in body" Text="According to the ever-helpful [theoi.com](http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Poseidon.html) (emphasis mine),&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Being the ruler of the sea (the Mediterranean), he is described as gathering clouds and calling forth storms, but at the same he has it in his power to grant a successful voyage and save those who are in danger, and **all other marine divinities are subject to him.** As the sea surrounds and holds the earth, he himself is described as the god who holds the earth (gaiêochos), and who has it in his power to shake the earth (enosichthôn, kinêtêr gas).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That just so happens to be one of the only parts of the page lacking in-line citations. Go figure. However, it later quotes *Aelian, On Animals 12. 45 (trans. Schofield) (Greek natural history C2nd to 3rd A.D.)* (emphasis mine):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This is the hymn: **‘Highest of the gods, lord of the sea,**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On [another page](http://www.theoi.com/greek-mythology/sea-gods.html), it explicitly says:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The ancient Greek term for sea gods was &quot;Theoi Halioi&quot; or &quot;Theoi Einalioi.&quot; These deities were commanded by the Sea-King Poseidon and his queen Amphitrite.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, [there was an older god](http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/sea-god.htm), Pontus, the husband/brother of Gaia. He was around long before Poseidon, and was the patriarch of all the sea/river/water gods." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3786" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="769" RevisionGUID="f9bb9990-98c7-43b5-8e39-240917cefaf7" CreationDate="2015-05-20T22:45:08.243" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 4 characters in body; edited title" Text="The Tain fairly often specifies specific geographical locations as the settings for its events.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [final battle of the Tain](http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/Muster.html), Fergus is convinced to turn from the battle and expend his anger on the hills, to spare the men of Ulster.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thus it was with that sword, which was the sword of Fergus: The sword of Fergus, the sword of Letè from Faery: Whenever he desired to strike with it, it became the size of a rainbow in the air. Thereupon Fergus turned his hand slantwise over the heads of the hosts, so that he smote the three tops of the three hills, so that they are still visible on the moor, and these are the three Maels ('the Balds') of Meath.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [meaning of Mael](http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/m%C3%A1el) here seems to be &quot;flat-topped hillock&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This takes place on a plain [referred to as](http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/Array.html) &quot;the wide plain of Meath&quot;, which I would assume is somewhere around the historic [Kingdom of Meath](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Meath), and generally between Connacht and the Ulaid.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does this story explain the creation of some known geographic feature?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3787" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="769" RevisionGUID="f9bb9990-98c7-43b5-8e39-240917cefaf7" CreationDate="2015-05-20T22:45:08.243" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 4 characters in body; edited title" Text="Where are the three Maels of Meath?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3788" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="760" RevisionGUID="498a9743-8340-4fdf-a5bb-66865e4c02c1" CreationDate="2015-05-20T22:47:44.660" UserId="29" Comment="added 32 characters in body" Text="#The meaning of those two ravens is not 100% answered, yet. One possible explanation is as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the Norse shamanic tradition, Odin's ravens represent the powers of necromancy, clairvoyance and telepathy, and they were guides for the dead. This poem expresses the shaman's fear of his loss of magical powers. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt; **The Well of Remembrance by Ralph Metzner, Shambala, Boston, 1994**&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, it is implied the name of one of the ravens is mistranslated:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  **it’s often claimed that Munin’s name means “Memory,” but for this to be so, it would have to be derived from minni**, “memory,” **rather than munr, “desire.”** The latter, however, is by far the more parsimonious derivation; if the former were the case, we should expect Munin’s Old Norse name to have been something like “Minninn” rather than “Muninn.” Moreover, **the above verse from the Grímnismál makes much more sense if Munin’s name means “Desire” rather than “Memory”** it’s often claimed that Munin’s name means “Memory,” but for this to be so, it would have to be derived from minni, “memory,” rather than munr, “desire.” The latter, however, is by far the more parsimonious derivation; **if the former were the case, we should expect Munin’s Old Norse name to have been something like “Minninn” rather than “Muninn.”** Moreover, the above verse from the Grímnismál makes much more sense if Munin’s name means “Desire” rather than “Memory”.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Norse Mythology for Smart People][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another possible explanation is the following, which is similar to first one:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Anthony Winterbourne** connects Huginn and Muninn to the Norse concepts **of the fylgja—a concept with three characteristics; shape-shifting abilities, good fortune, and the guardian spirit—and the hamingja—the ghostly double of a person that may appear in the form of an animal.** Winterbourne states that “**The shaman’s journey through the different parts of the cosmos is symbolized by the hamingja concept of the shape-shifting soul, and gains another symbolic dimension for the Norse soul in the account of Oðin’s ravens, Huginn and Muninn.”** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt; [My Travels with Huggin and Munnin][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, [Rudolf Simek][3] has an entirely different point to make, saying that the names of the ravens were only used in later times:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Rudolf Simek is critical of the approach**, stating that **&quot;attempts have been made to interpret Odin's ravens as a personification of the god's intellectual powers, but this can only be assumed from the names Huginn and Muninn themselves which were unlikely to have been invented much before the 9th or 10th centuries&quot;** yet that the two ravens, as Odin's companions, appear to derive from much earlier times. **Instead, Simek connects Huginn and Muninn with wider raven symbolism in the Germanic world, including the Raven Banner (described in English chronicles and Scandinavian sagas), a banner which was woven in a method that allowed it, when fluttering in the wind, to appear as if the raven depicted upon it was beating its wings.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/others/hugin-and-munin/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://ljmoore.wordpress.com/2013/03/16/my-travels-with-huginn-and-muninn/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Simek&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huginn_and_Muninn#Theories" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3789" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="419" RevisionGUID="47c34920-432f-4a5c-8ce0-d241a2086f56" CreationDate="2015-05-20T22:54:38.393" UserId="29" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="Odin's ravens would continuously fly all over Midgard to collect information and bring it back to Odin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Norse mythology, Huginn (from Old Norse &quot;thought&quot;) and Muninn&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Old Norse &quot;memory&quot; or &quot;mind&quot;) are a pair of ravens that fly all&#xD;&#xA;&gt; over the world, Midgard, and bring information to the god Odin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the poem [Grímnismál][2], it is said that Odin is afraid the two ravens would not come back.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    Hugin and Munin fly each day &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    over the spacious earth. &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    I fear for Hugin, that he come not back, &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    yet more anxious am I for Munin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why would a god be afraid that his ravens would not come back? Is there any secret meaning, connected to the ravens' names (`Memory` and `Thought`)?&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huginn_and_Muninn&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe06.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3790" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="771" RevisionGUID="ef0f624b-c85d-4dab-987a-1113d3cfe246" CreationDate="2015-05-20T22:55:24.663" UserId="183" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3791" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="772" RevisionGUID="253577d0-8937-4852-90eb-5bfaf39a2487" CreationDate="2015-05-20T22:55:24.663" UserId="183" Text="For questions about how weapons play a role in myths or mythical events, as well as famous mythological weapons, such as Poseidon's trident or Zeus' lightning bolts." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3792" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="773" RevisionGUID="12e97946-31cd-4314-9de2-738bd7b63ac4" CreationDate="2015-05-20T22:56:56.990" UserId="183" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3793" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="774" RevisionGUID="3440dc32-6c15-4a4d-940b-45af29390bf4" CreationDate="2015-05-20T22:56:56.990" UserId="183" Text="For questions about supernatural powers, often possessed by deities. Magic exists in many myths; do not use this tag unless magic is the focus of the question." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3794" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="775" RevisionGUID="7561037e-b1dc-4dbe-8758-58b0814eff1c" CreationDate="2015-05-20T22:58:26.993" UserId="183" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3795" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="776" RevisionGUID="71b750aa-3103-48f9-a6a9-880ebfcbf167" CreationDate="2015-05-20T22:58:26.993" UserId="183" Text="For questions about the mythology of the peoples of the Korean peninsula." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3796" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="777" RevisionGUID="9f23fd19-6008-41b0-a9e6-94ece29e8968" CreationDate="2015-05-20T23:16:09.037" UserId="31" Text="They [Sang for Horses][1] first published in 1966 is devoted pretty much exclusively to this topic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Navajos first obtained horses [in the early 1600s][2], and the Navajo nations didn't become part of the [United States till 1848][3] so that gave them around 250 years in which to establish their own mythology around horses. Navajo was an [unwritten language][4] prior to the middle of the 19th century so that's a number of generations where stories passed solely by oral tradition. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The book [describes how][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mythological elements were  developed in such a way that the horse became a “gift of the gods,” useful not only in daily mundane life, but also in curing and  other  supernatural areas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and in the end&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I was struck by how completely this historical incident *(that horses had originally been obtained by raiding them from the Spanish)* had been erased from Navajo consciousness and replaced by a mythological version. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.amazon.com/They-Sang-Horses-Impact-Folklore/dp/0870814966&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.redoaktree.org/indianhorse/history2.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1171.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://aboutworldlanguages.com/navajo&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1525/aa.1968.70.1.02a00310/pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3797" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="770" RevisionGUID="402d5601-e6ce-42c8-9890-8ff86e1e22ff" CreationDate="2015-05-21T00:02:54.897" UserId="183" Comment="added 78 characters in body; deleted 1 character in body" Text="According to the ever-helpful [theoi.com](http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Poseidon.html) (emphasis mine on all quotes),&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Being the ruler of the sea (the Mediterranean), he is described as gathering clouds and calling forth storms, but at the same he has it in his power to grant a successful voyage and save those who are in danger, and **all other marine divinities are subject to him.** As the sea surrounds and holds the earth, he himself is described as the god who holds the earth (gaiêochos), and who has it in his power to shake the earth (enosichthôn, kinêtêr gas).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That just so happens to be one of the only parts of the page lacking in-line citations. Go figure. However, it later quotes *Aelian, On Animals 12. 45 (trans. Schofield) (Greek natural history C2nd to 3rd A.D.)*:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This is the hymn: **‘Highest of the gods, lord of the sea,**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On [another page](http://www.theoi.com/greek-mythology/sea-gods.html), it explicitly says:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The ancient Greek term for sea gods was &quot;Theoi Halioi&quot; or &quot;Theoi Einalioi.&quot; These deities were commanded by the Sea-King Poseidon and his queen Amphitrite.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, [there was an older god](http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/sea-god.htm), Pontus, the husband/brother of Gaia. He was around long before Poseidon, and was the patriarch of all the sea/river/water gods. I do know if/when Poseidon became dominant over Pontus, if that ever happened." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3798" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="778" RevisionGUID="bd0c991d-ab06-4e8c-9a24-d73d86f6a58e" CreationDate="2015-05-21T00:04:21.873" UserId="183" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3799" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="779" RevisionGUID="09625300-12fd-4aa5-a23e-88c664a641ed" CreationDate="2015-05-21T00:04:21.873" UserId="183" Text="For questions about the Cretan structure built by Daedalus for King Minos to contain the Minotaur." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3800" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="780" RevisionGUID="9e738db9-c41b-4efd-86dd-68e73fcf08d7" CreationDate="2015-05-21T00:05:01.900" UserId="183" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3801" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="781" RevisionGUID="2f3151b5-7132-438a-a982-79d6baa1633b" CreationDate="2015-05-21T00:05:01.900" UserId="183" Text="For questions about the stories and myths of the religion centered around the Flying Spaghetti Monster." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3802" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="782" RevisionGUID="ca269a27-bf84-4d95-963b-5a7ea46a7682" CreationDate="2015-05-21T00:06:07.680" UserId="183" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3803" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="783" RevisionGUID="ba0d4602-0d49-4baa-8c5b-0bc3e70fff21" CreationDate="2015-05-21T00:06:07.680" UserId="183" Text="For questions about the mythology and religion of the people of the Hawaiian islands, often before outside contact with, for example, Europeans." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3804" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="784" RevisionGUID="64117b98-bcd9-43d5-b427-9096fb7c7331" CreationDate="2015-05-21T00:06:56.043" UserId="183" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3805" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="785" RevisionGUID="17fa8a1d-2ac9-40b3-b4f9-7306d3ebfede" CreationDate="2015-05-21T00:06:56.043" UserId="183" Text="For questions about a group of Roman priests dedicated to honoring several minor deities." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3806" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="786" RevisionGUID="bb02b378-9718-40b1-be23-e69b3d480b6b" CreationDate="2015-05-21T00:16:52.557" UserId="183" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3807" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="787" RevisionGUID="200f0107-b350-408e-8db9-b9d791dab2a7" CreationDate="2015-05-21T00:16:52.557" UserId="183" Text="For questions about the study of religions." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3808" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="788" RevisionGUID="5637d398-0a83-44e2-b817-9c3e9aa70368" CreationDate="2015-05-21T00:37:46.817" UserId="183" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3809" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="789" RevisionGUID="91918091-5522-496c-a85a-2bd98423b2e4" CreationDate="2015-05-21T00:37:46.817" UserId="183" Text="For questions about the mythology of the indigenous people of New Zealand, a country in the South Pacific Ocean near Polynesia." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3810" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="333" RevisionGUID="e4ec6286-c57b-4f8c-8741-e5c87e97fbcf" CreationDate="2015-05-21T00:39:15.340" UserId="183" Comment="added 14 characters in body; deleted 8 characters in body" Text="For questions on the myths, legends, and religious beliefs of the people of Egypt." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3811" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="779" RevisionGUID="46535860-8842-450b-bc2c-c7385159b88a" CreationDate="2015-05-21T00:40:12.293" UserId="183" Comment="added 19 characters in body" Text="For questions about the Cretan structure built by the Greek inventor Daedalus for King Minos to contain the Minotaur." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3812" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="783" RevisionGUID="37860bed-0a11-419c-9837-1cf84c1fbfdc" CreationDate="2015-05-21T00:40:32.040" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 14 characters in body" Text="For questions about the mythology and religion of the people of the Hawaiian islands, often before outside contact with Europeans." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3813" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="781" RevisionGUID="1057e817-d8d6-42d4-862f-bb0877459556" CreationDate="2015-05-21T00:40:56.563" UserId="183" Comment="added 39 characters in body" Text="For questions about the stories and myths of the religion centered around the Flying Spaghetti Monster, originally created by Bobby Henderson." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3814" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="321" RevisionGUID="59ad9e89-89b2-45c3-ae7a-8e0431d5de7a" CreationDate="2015-05-21T00:42:37.383" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 13 characters in body" Text="For questions regarding the end of the world as featured in mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3815" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="376" RevisionGUID="baa28345-f544-489a-bf57-d146a1b605a6" CreationDate="2015-05-21T00:43:37.197" UserId="183" Comment="added 35 characters in body" Text="For questions relating to the mythology of Sumeria, an area between the Euphrates and Tigris rivers, later known as Mesopotamia by the Ancient Greeks. See also the [tag:mesopotamia] tag." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3816" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="452" RevisionGUID="c7f1a3c8-6c3b-4fa6-bc7a-173cb8c9eead" CreationDate="2015-05-21T00:43:50.910" UserId="183" Comment="added 32 characters in body" Text="For questions linked to the area between Tigris and Euphrates, corresponding to modern-day Iraq. See also the [tag:sumeria] tag." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3819" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="598" RevisionGUID="e5408966-e60b-4672-9f94-d14af8de267c" CreationDate="2015-05-21T08:56:46.727" UserId="-1" Comment="1" />
  <row Id="3821" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="790" RevisionGUID="393e3a68-6e7a-4dbb-9655-3f7d1285d411" CreationDate="2015-05-21T10:16:31.037" UserId="229" Text="One important thing to note here is that many (most?) American Indians did not get horses directly from the European traders or settlers. According to [Jared Diamond][1] what happened was that the Spanish brought horses with them, some escaped and [went feral][2], and the plains tribes (many of whom had never encountered a European) tamed those feral horses. So from their perspective, these useful creatures just *appeared* one day. That's the kind of thing that could use a good explanation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Goods like guns they did not have the capability of producing themselves, and indeed had to get directly from European traders. So it was pretty obvious to American Indian people where guns came from.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is spoiled a bit in the case of the Navajo, in that they were a settled farming people prior to the introduction of the horse, and due to their location they encountered the Spanish fairly early (1540 or so).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustang#History" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3822" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="790" RevisionGUID="66e4ddb3-6561-4cef-97f6-a7f692627eda" CreationDate="2015-05-21T10:23:10.787" UserId="229" Comment="added 9 characters in body" Text="One important thing to note here is that many (most?) American Indians did not first get horses directly from the European traders or settlers. According to [Jared Diamond][1] what happened was that the Spanish brought horses with them, some escaped and [went feral][2], and the plains tribes (many of whom had never encountered a European) tamed those feral horses. So from their perspective, these useful creatures just *appeared* one day. That's the kind of thing that could use a good explanation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Goods like guns they did not have the capability of producing themselves, and indeed had to get directly from European traders. So it was pretty obvious to American Indian people where guns came from.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is spoiled a bit in the case of the Navajo, in that due to their location they [encountered the Spanish fairly early][3] (1540 at the earliest).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustang#History&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://navajopeople.org/blog/first-contact-with-the-navajo-1540/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3825" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="770" RevisionGUID="40632140-9d09-4ef9-8cbc-114cf659aaae" CreationDate="2015-05-21T21:21:01.970" UserId="183" Comment="&quot;do&quot; -&gt; &quot;don't&quot;. Quite an error." Text="According to the ever-helpful [theoi.com](http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Poseidon.html) (emphasis mine on all quotes),&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Being the ruler of the sea (the Mediterranean), he is described as gathering clouds and calling forth storms, but at the same he has it in his power to grant a successful voyage and save those who are in danger, and **all other marine divinities are subject to him.** As the sea surrounds and holds the earth, he himself is described as the god who holds the earth (gaiêochos), and who has it in his power to shake the earth (enosichthôn, kinêtêr gas).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That just so happens to be one of the only parts of the page lacking in-line citations. Go figure. However, it later quotes *Aelian, On Animals 12. 45 (trans. Schofield) (Greek natural history C2nd to 3rd A.D.)*:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This is the hymn: **‘Highest of the gods, lord of the sea,**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On [another page](http://www.theoi.com/greek-mythology/sea-gods.html), it explicitly says:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The ancient Greek term for sea gods was &quot;Theoi Halioi&quot; or &quot;Theoi Einalioi.&quot; These deities were commanded by the Sea-King Poseidon and his queen Amphitrite.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, [there was an older god](http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/sea-god.htm), Pontus, the husband/brother of Gaia. He was around long before Poseidon, and was the patriarch of all the sea/river/water gods. I don't know if/when Poseidon became dominant over Pontus, if that ever happened." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3826" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="67" RevisionGUID="cdaeb369-4890-4dae-aec7-7459bff33759" CreationDate="2015-05-21T22:12:17.737" UserId="183" Comment="added 8 characters in body" Text="For questions for the deeper meaning behind a myth, such as a theme or symbolism." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3827" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="580" RevisionGUID="b2385a34-9fb0-4736-a720-a0d2bbfcdd58" CreationDate="2015-05-21T22:13:11.830" UserId="183" Comment="added 88 characters in body" Text="For questions about an epic story making up part of the Ulster Cycle of Irish mythology, compiled in the Middle Ages but dating from many centuries earlier." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3828" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="378" RevisionGUID="95ba7682-91d9-4661-8a80-790a463306ab" CreationDate="2015-05-21T22:13:40.003" UserId="183" Comment="added 29 characters in body" Text="For questions about myths of the creation of the universe, Earth, and all the things on it." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3829" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="157" RevisionGUID="756d4889-ad8f-4d0a-af08-2e27dac9b356" CreationDate="2015-05-21T22:14:19.750" UserId="183" Comment="added 46 characters in body" Text="For questions about animals or non-human beings described in folklore and legends, which may or may not be based on actual creatures." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3830" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="487" RevisionGUID="16da3f08-066e-433d-9002-c343bb21a6ee" CreationDate="2015-05-21T22:15:42.517" UserId="183" Comment="added 110 characters in body" Text="The Mabinogion is a series of tales centered on four major &quot;branches&quot;; it also includes other short stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can read a translation on [SacredTexts.com][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/index.htm#contents" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3831" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="488" RevisionGUID="3a423d08-8abd-45c7-84c0-65cc172bbda3" CreationDate="2015-05-21T22:15:42.517" UserId="183" Comment="added 54 characters in body" Text="For questions about a written collection of Welsh myths compiled in the 13th Century from earlier oral tales, occasionally called the Mabinogi." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3832" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="429" RevisionGUID="6e0af6c7-8736-4fef-9e86-cfe81574e4c3" CreationDate="2015-05-21T22:16:28.870" UserId="183" Comment="added 20 characters in body; added 37 characters in body" Text="For questions about the god of Norse mythology associated with thunder and lightning, often depicted as wielding a hammer." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3833" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="732" RevisionGUID="639665dd-19b5-4e37-ae75-06bb9ad11b7a" CreationDate="2015-05-21T22:17:54.780" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body" Text="See also the [tag:odyssey] tag." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3834" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="733" RevisionGUID="23f423bf-987e-4cf8-a11e-520ec573f28b" CreationDate="2015-05-21T22:17:54.780" UserId="183" Comment="added 42 characters in body" Text="For questions about a Greek epic attributed to Homer, about the Trojan War." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3835" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="438" RevisionGUID="2dfd0023-fc8b-42e4-9ea2-a739aad02f09" CreationDate="2015-05-21T22:18:27.650" UserId="183" Comment="added 76 characters in body" Text="See also the [tag:iliad] tag for another epic by Homer about the Trojan War." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3836" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="447" RevisionGUID="ee3b19ea-9762-4f23-a8c3-c8d50a86d838" CreationDate="2015-05-21T22:20:10.900" UserId="183" Comment="added 116 characters in body" Text="For questions about myths and legends connected to vampires, humanoid beings occasionally (especially in modern literature) depicted as nocturnal and preferring to drink blood." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3837" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="429" RevisionGUID="a3c66dd7-8443-410e-b206-20498af07f99" CreationDate="2015-05-21T22:22:05.043" UserId="183" Comment="added 15 characters in body" Text="For questions about the god of Norse mythology associated with thunder and lightning, often depicted as wielding a hammer called Mjolnir." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3838" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="484" RevisionGUID="ac97dae3-595e-4ecb-a3a8-34b4d5ef2580" CreationDate="2015-05-21T22:22:29.130" UserId="183" Comment="added 16 characters in body" Text="For questions about the  fearsome and powerful war hammer forged by dwarves, the trademark weapon of the Norse god of thunder, Thor." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3839" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="408" RevisionGUID="782c8f2e-358f-48f0-9d64-b929657267b0" CreationDate="2015-05-21T22:22:45.523" UserId="183" Comment="added 24 characters in body" Text="For questions about humans who periodically turn into wolf-like creatures, often at the full moon." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3840" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="369" RevisionGUID="fddbea73-ae72-421a-8246-7068d75fa603" CreationDate="2015-05-21T22:26:42.590" UserId="183" Comment="added 82 characters in body" Text="Medusa was a priestess of Athena, whose beauty attracted the attention of god Poseidon. Poseidon had sex with her in Athena's temple, and for this offense Athena transformed Medusa in a monster with serpents for hair and which gaze would turn men to stone. Medusa, unlike her two sisters, was mortal, and was eventually killed by Perseus." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3841" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="370" RevisionGUID="ae1f4e6e-af9c-492b-be61-43bd7f02e8f4" CreationDate="2015-05-21T22:26:42.590" UserId="183" Comment="added 33 characters in body" Text="For questions about one of the Gorgons, three monster sisters with hair made of serpents whose gaze could turn people to stone." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3842" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="159" RevisionGUID="d729a725-1639-4c1d-ae16-2c4cb6c93019" CreationDate="2015-05-22T00:27:55.670" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 8 characters in body" Text="For questions about Roman mythology and legends." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3843" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="116" RevisionGUID="683d64fa-4641-40a2-a38a-ea4f57f9d67a" CreationDate="2015-05-22T00:28:14.643" UserId="183" Comment="added 40 characters in body" Text="For questions about Greek mythology and legends, from ancient Greece to the present day." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3844" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="791" RevisionGUID="65698836-8a4c-4ac4-8cb5-ecf476673a4c" CreationDate="2015-05-22T09:05:00.710" UserId="229" Text="I haven't heard quite that theory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The theory about the Original source of Zeus that I tend to come across&lt;sup&gt;*&lt;/sup&gt; is that the original proto-Indo-European people (PIE), based on comparative linguistic and religion studies, appear to have likely had a pantheon headed up by [*Dyeus Ph2ter][1] (Sky Father). They also had a thunder god [*Perkwunos][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greeks are of course Indo-European descendants, and Zeus is both a fairly typical exemplar of the Sky Father god, and seems to have taken on the attributes of the thunder god (the thunderbolts are kind of a dead giveaway). So at the absolute least, he appears to be a combination of both the PIE Dyeus and Perkwunos. Somehow for the Greeks, both got merged into one god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;* - The go-to reference for this appears to be [The Oxford Introduction to Proto-Indo-European and the Proto-Indo-European World][3]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyeus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perkwunos&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.amazon.com/Oxford-Introduction-Proto-Indo-European-World-Linguistics/dp/0199296685" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3845" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="791" RevisionGUID="416bda98-88a9-468b-bfb8-0318e296c43f" CreationDate="2015-05-22T09:10:47.277" UserId="229" Comment="added 141 characters in body" Text="I haven't heard quite that theory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The theory about the Original source of Zeus that I tend to come across&lt;sup&gt;*&lt;/sup&gt; is that the original proto-Indo-European people (PIE), based on comparative linguistic and religion studies, appear to have likely had a pantheon headed up by [*Dyeus Ph2ter][1] (Sky Father). They also had a thunder and/or Oak god [*Perkwunos][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greeks are of course Indo-European descendants, and Zeus is both a fairly typical exemplar of the Sky Father god, and seems to have taken on the attributes of the thunder god (the thunderbolts are kind of a dead giveaway). Oaks are also said to be sacred to Zeus in many sources, particularly at [Dodona][3]. So at the absolute least, he appears to be a combination of both the PIE Dyeus and Perkwunos. Somehow for the Greeks, both got merged into one god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;* - The go-to reference for this appears to be [The Oxford Introduction to Proto-Indo-European and the Proto-Indo-European World][4]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyeus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perkwunos&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.bartleby.com/196/26.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.amazon.com/Oxford-Introduction-Proto-Indo-European-World-Linguistics/dp/0199296685" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3846" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="791" RevisionGUID="40df6058-3e3a-4863-abfa-b42961cd84c9" CreationDate="2015-05-22T09:54:28.783" UserId="229" Comment="deleted 38 characters in body" Text="I haven't heard quite that theory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The theory about the Original source of Zeus that I tend to come across&lt;sup&gt;*&lt;/sup&gt; is that the original proto-Indo-European people (PIE), based on comparative linguistic and religion studies, appear to have likely had a pantheon headed up by [*Dyeus Ph2ter][1] (Sky Father). They also had a thunder and/or Oak god [*Perkwunos][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greeks are of course Indo-European descendants, and Zeus is both a fairly typical exemplar of the Sky Father god, and seems to have taken on the attributes of the thunder god (the thunderbolts are kind of a dead giveaway). Oaks are also said to be sacred to Zeus in many sources, particularly at [Dodona][3]. So he appears to be a combination of both the PIE Dyeus and Perkwunos. Somehow, both got merged into one god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;* - The go-to reference for this appears to be [The Oxford Introduction to Proto-Indo-European and the Proto-Indo-European World][4]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyeus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perkwunos&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.bartleby.com/196/26.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.amazon.com/Oxford-Introduction-Proto-Indo-European-World-Linguistics/dp/0199296685" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3847" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="792" RevisionGUID="7489bbc0-4bec-40f9-b862-a1f1a252fd0c" CreationDate="2015-05-22T12:27:25.143" UserId="111" Text="Chamberlain, in [*'Aino folk-tales'*](http://www.sacred-texts.com/shi/aft/aft.htm), reports the following tale, referred to as *'How it was settled who should rule the World'*, from the Ainus (Hokkaido, Japan):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    When the Creator had finished creating this world of men, the good and the bad gods were all mixed together promiscuously, and began disputing for the possession of the world. They disputed,—the bad gods wanting to be at the head of the government of this world, and the good gods likewise wanting to be at the head. So the following arrangement was agreed to: Whoever, at the time of sunrise, should be the first to see the luminary, should rule the world. If the bad gods should be the first to see it rise, then they should rule; and if the good gods should be the first, then they should rule. Thereupon both the bad Gods and the brilliant gods looked towards the place where the luminary was to rise. But the fox[-god] alone stood looking towards the west. After a little time, the fox cried out: &quot;I see the sunrise.&quot; On the gods, both bad and good, turning round and gazing, they saw in truth the refulgence of the luminary in the west. This is the cause for which the brilliant gods rule the world.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;—(Translated literally. Told by Ishanashte, 10th July, 1886.)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meaning that the Ainus consider some of their gods ([*Kamuy*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamuy)) to be bad. Do we have any idea of which one they consider(ed) to be the the *bad ones*?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3848" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="792" RevisionGUID="7489bbc0-4bec-40f9-b862-a1f1a252fd0c" CreationDate="2015-05-22T12:27:25.143" UserId="111" Text="Which Kamuy are the 'bad ones'?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3849" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="792" RevisionGUID="7489bbc0-4bec-40f9-b862-a1f1a252fd0c" CreationDate="2015-05-22T12:27:25.143" UserId="111" Text="|japanese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3850" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="792" RevisionGUID="437ec51c-ac68-45a9-ae5e-fd69ff8ae29a" CreationDate="2015-05-22T12:40:21.763" UserId="111" Comment="deleted 4 characters in body" Text="Chamberlain, in [*'Aino folk-tales'*](http://www.sacred-texts.com/shi/aft/aft.htm), reports the following tale, referred to as *'How it was settled who should rule the World'*, from the Ainus (Hokkaido, Japan):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    When the Creator had finished creating this world of men, the good and the bad gods were all mixed together promiscuously, and began disputing for the possession of the world. They disputed,—the bad gods wanting to be at the head of the government of this world, and the good gods likewise wanting to be at the head. So the following arrangement was agreed to: Whoever, at the time of sunrise, should be the first to see the luminary, should rule the world. If the bad gods should be the first to see it rise, then they should rule; and if the good gods should be the first, then they should rule. Thereupon both the bad Gods and the brilliant gods looked towards the place where the luminary was to rise. But the fox[-god] alone stood looking towards the west. After a little time, the fox cried out: &quot;I see the sunrise.&quot; On the gods, both bad and good, turning round and gazing, they saw in truth the refulgence of the luminary in the west. This is the cause for which the brilliant gods rule the world.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;—(Translated literally. Told by Ishanashte, 10th July, 1886.)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meaning that the Ainus consider some of their gods ([*Kamuy*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamuy)) to be bad. Do we have any idea of which one they consider(ed) to be the *bad ones*?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3851" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="287" RevisionGUID="f67dd86e-ef7f-4816-ad77-310729aece62" CreationDate="2015-05-22T16:06:02.367" UserId="-1" Comment="2" />
  <row Id="3852" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="74" RevisionGUID="3861a59e-c385-4c89-9a5f-5fbf0aa16faf" CreationDate="2015-05-22T19:51:46.920" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="tags" Text="|welsh|mabinogion|arthurian|the-native-tales|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3853" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="793" RevisionGUID="03f6145c-1ce3-4742-9619-542cacd04887" CreationDate="2015-05-22T22:49:11.543" UserId="108" Text="These evil supernatural beings are known collectively as the `kunne kamuy` or `wen kamuy`, *lit.* &quot;dark spirits&quot; or &quot;evil spirits&quot;, respectively. They are referred to as *kamuy* because it is considered more polite than calling them demons to their faces.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is always good to call any being politely as *kamuy*. Then its soul would be pleased and won't do any harm to us. that's why we call even demons *kunne kamuy* or *wen kamuy*. Then they will be pleased and stay away from us.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Ohnuki-Tierney, Emiko. The Ainu of the Northwest Coast of Southern Sakhalin. Holt, Rinehart and Winston, 1974. &lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One example is *Pakoro Kamuy*, the spirit of pestilence, also known as the Oripak Kamuy. Manifesting as smallpox, it is evil and feared for obvious reasons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The smallpox, which ravaged the villages, was called Pakoro (punishing) Kamui and even Oripak (awe-inspiring) Kamui.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Munro, Neil Gordon, and Brenda Z. Seligman. *Ainu Creed and Cult.* Kegan Paul Intl, 1996.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another is the [*Pawci Kamuy*](http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%91%E3%82%A6%E3%83%81%E3%82%AB%E3%83%A0%E3%82%A4), the spirit of lust and lust induced insanity (i.e. naked dancing).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pauchi Kamui, who is supposed to hail from the Willow-soul River (Susu-ram Pet) in High Heaven (Rukun Kando) [is] responsible for gastralgia, food pisoning, insanity, and epidemics of frenzied dancing.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Munro, Neil Gordon, and Brenda Z. Seligman. *Ainu Creed and Cult.* Kegan Paul Intl, 1996.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [*Mintuci Kamuy*](http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%9F%E3%83%B3%E3%83%88%E3%82%A5%E3%83%81), a sort of monster like the Japanese [*kappa*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappa_%28folklore%29), is usually regarded as a not exactly good spirit, but also said to help people occasionally." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3854" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="749" RevisionGUID="ebebca33-54ee-43af-942f-1417dcb23056" CreationDate="2015-05-23T00:21:30.983" UserId="42" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="No, the confusion between Loki and Logi goes back to 19th-century theories about myth, which saw Odin as the storm (or sun), Thor as literally thunder, and Loki as fire. No one accepts these ideas now, as Rudolf Simek and John Lindow make clear in the dictionaries of Norse myth. The general consensus about Loki is that pinning him down to one thing is like nailing Jell-O to the wall. The 9th-century poem [Haustlong][1] calls him the &quot;rouser of tales&quot; and I think that's as close as we're going to get to a defintion of Loki. &#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is ironic that Logi is confused with Loki, as they are opponents in the contests that Utgard-loki sets up. (After all, Thor contends with the Midgard-Serpent and old age, and no one thinks he is somehow the same as them.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.wyrdwords.vispa.com/goddesses/idhun/haustlong.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3857" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="794" RevisionGUID="0eb467b1-aee2-473a-9c00-37d27cbd04bc" CreationDate="2015-05-23T06:55:14.020" UserId="42" Text="While it certainly seems to explain the existence of certain hills at the time, there doesn't seem to be any known landmark to attach this to.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The battle appears, as written, to have taken place in Westmeath, between Athlone and Mullingar, but the hills in question don't seem to be identified.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After attempting collect a bunch of references to [known locations of the Tain](http://www.zeemaps.com/view?group=1462924&amp;x=-7.245913&amp;y=53.772154&amp;z=9), I came across recently written paper including maps explaining and proposed changes to the accepted route of the Tain: [The Route of Táin Bó Cúailnge Revisited](https://www.academia.edu/10829315/The_Route_of_T%C3%A1in_B%C3%B3_C%C3%BAailnge_Revisited), by [Paul Gosling](https://gmit.academia.edu/PaulGosling).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Please do go take a look at the map labelled Figure 4 (I have intentionally not reproduced it here, per the [Academia.edu licensing terms](https://www.academia.edu/terms))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some locations near the battle can be established very clearly:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Ath Luane - Modern Athlone, a city in county Westmeath - Where Donn Cuailnge leaves Finnbenach's loins immediately after the battle in question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Ath Firdia - Modern Ardee, a city in county Louth ([Complete with local monument](http://medieval.ucdavis.edu/TAIN/Ath%20Firdia.html)) - The location of Cuchullain and Ferdiad's combat.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At Ath Firdia, the Connacht army is making a bee-line back to Chruachan with their prize in tow (harried by Cuchullain along the way, of course).  Accepted opinion seems to place the final battle squarely in County Westmeath, somewhere generally between the modern cities of Athlone and Mullingar.  The paper fills in the established locations of the camps of Ulster and Connacht:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Slemain Midhe (camp of Ulster) - Slanemore Hill&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Clathra (camp of Connacht) - Clare Hill&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The author gives one location as the most likely location of the battle, and a second location posited in an older resource:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Garthy - The suggestion by the author&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Washford Bridge - The suggestion by an earlier researcher.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The two are less than 10 km apart, so pretty close.  No statement as to the hills in question though.  A speculation on them here or there, but nothing that seems worth crediting.  It's not too hard to see the problem.  The author of the above paper describes the surrounding areas as &quot;gently undulating enclosed farmland&quot;.  Indeed, taking a quick look at a topographic map of the vicinity:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Google topographic map of the areas][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Reveals not much going on.  [Ushnagh Hill](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hill_of_Uisneach) seems to be the most marked hill in the area.  It's the gentle incline just to the right of the &quot;Killare&quot; label on the map.  The hill does appear to have quite a storied history, but I can't find any compelling reason to assume it is one of those mentioned in the story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/n1Ol3.png (You call those hills?)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3858" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="739" RevisionGUID="47426ccc-b8a0-4734-a711-c8502f03328d" CreationDate="2015-05-23T07:11:27.370" UserId="42" Comment="Adding extra returns where they appear in the markdown, to make them appear when viewed." Text="I can't speak for the Cimmerians, although I think they were a Central Asian people, but the Hyperboreans were legendary. They lived &quot;beyond the north wind&quot; in a [land in the extreme far north][1], with huge mountains in the frigid land to their south.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They supposedly built the [second temple][2] at Delphi, from feathers and beeswax, and sent tribute to Apollo's temple at Delos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There has been much speculation that the Hyperboreans were the Norse or [British][3] people, and [this paper][4] also mentions the Balkans, because of the mountains. As a side note, however, there is a similar story in Norse myth about a place called Glaesisvellir at the very end of Jotunheim, the remote, barren land of the giants (jotuns), which appears in several sagas and the [History of the Danes][5]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Phylos/Hyperborea.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/Pausanias10A.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://historyplanet.wordpress.com/2010/08/24/hyperboria/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.escholar.manchester.ac.uk/api/datastream?publicationPid=uk-ac-man-scw:1m1174&amp;datastreamId=POST-PEER-REVIEW-PUBLISHERS-DOCUMENT.PDF&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&amp;rct=j&amp;q=&amp;esrc=s&amp;source=web&amp;cd=3&amp;ved=0CCMQFjAC&amp;url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F620633%2Fvpp_ec_%25C3%25BE%25C3%25A9r_verp_oc_%25C3%25A1_avstr_vega_throwing_up_in_%25C3%2586gir_s_hall&amp;ei=YkhaVcHFIuaHsQStoYHACA&amp;usg=AFQjCNENnl00LKRjMdmQVli5ZyEnSPpMfw&amp;sig2=LbJiTovTChZ63ZdX3hKF3Q&amp;bvm=bv.93564037,d.ZGU" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3859" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="794" RevisionGUID="c3a87aa3-f16d-4030-bf78-739b38638289" CreationDate="2015-05-23T07:20:10.247" UserId="42" Comment="Cleaning up a bit" Text="While it certainly seems to explain the existence of certain hills at the time, there isn't any known landmark to attach this event to.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The battle strongly appears to have taken place in Westmeath, between Athlone and Mullingar, but the hills in question don't seem to be identified.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After attempting collect a bunch of references to [known locations of the Tain](http://www.zeemaps.com/view?group=1462924&amp;x=-7.245913&amp;y=53.772154&amp;z=9), I came across a recently written paper including maps explaining, and proposing changes to, the accepted route of the Tain: [The Route of Táin Bó Cúailnge Revisited](https://www.academia.edu/10829315/The_Route_of_T%C3%A1in_B%C3%B3_C%C3%BAailnge_Revisited), by [Paul Gosling](https://gmit.academia.edu/PaulGosling).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Please do go take a look at the map labelled Figure 4 (I have intentionally *not* reproduced it here, per the [Academia.edu licensing terms](https://www.academia.edu/terms)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some locations near the battle can be established clearly and easily:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Ath Luane - Modern Athlone, a city in County Westmeath - Where Donn Cuailnge leaves Finnbenach's loins immediately after the battle in question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Ath Firdia - Modern Ardee, a city in County Louth ([Complete with local monument](http://medieval.ucdavis.edu/TAIN/Ath%20Firdia.html)) - The location of Cuchullain and Ferdiad's combat.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At Ath Firdia, the Connacht army is making a bee-line back to Cruachan with their prize in tow (harried by Cuchullain along the way, of course).  Accepted opinion seems to place the final battle squarely in County Westmeath, somewhere generally between the modern cities of Athlone and Mullingar.  The paper fills in the established locations of the camps of Ulster and Connacht:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Slemain Midhe (camp of Ulster) - Slanemore Hill&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Clathra (camp of Connacht) - Clare Hill&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And the author gives one location as the most likely location of the battle, as well as giving mention to a second possible location posited in an older resource, supposed supported by local tradition:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Garthy - The suggestion by the author&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Washford Bridge - The suggestion by an earlier researcher.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The two are less than 10 km apart, so pretty close.  No statement as to the hills in question though.  A speculation can be found here or there, but nothing that seems worth crediting.  It's not too hard to see the problem.  The author of the above paper describes the surrounding areas as &quot;gently undulating enclosed farmland&quot;.  Indeed, taking a quick look at a topographic map of the vicinity:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Google topographic map of the areas][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which reveals not much going on.  [Ushnagh Hill](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hill_of_Uisneach) seems to be the most dramatic hill in the area.  It's the gentle incline just to the right of the &quot;Killare&quot; label on the map.  The hill does appear to have quite a storied history, but I can't find any compelling reason to assume it is one of those mentioned in the story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/n1Ol3.png (You call those hills?)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3861" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="487" RevisionGUID="a21ad7b9-78a3-4c44-8421-d96fc3909e3e" CreationDate="2015-05-23T13:32:57.940" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="trying out an idea on chat, and editing for translation recomendations" Text="The Mabinogion is a series of tales centered on four major &quot;branches&quot;; it also includes other short stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can read a translation on [SacredTexts.com][1], or at [Mabinogi.net][2]. The first translation includes eight additional stories&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;, but the second translation is more accurate.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; The [tag:the-native-tales] stories, which are sometimes considered supplemental to the four main stories&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/index.htm#contents&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.mabinogi.net/translations.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3862" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="487" RevisionGUID="a21ad7b9-78a3-4c44-8421-d96fc3909e3e" CreationDate="2015-05-23T13:32:57.940" Comment="Proposed by 62 approved by 79, 29 edit id of 199" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3863" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="795" RevisionGUID="59b3919f-2ad8-46c6-808b-68fb22ac7c21" CreationDate="2015-05-23T14:36:50.803" UserId="188" Text="From [Wiktionary: Fairy : Etymology][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; From Middle English fairie, from Old French faerie, the -erie abstract of fae, from Vulgar Latin Fāta (“goddess of fate”), from Latin fātum (“fate”)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, what we call 'fairies' were, in the languages that their stories originated from, ['sidhe'][3], ['alfar' (Elves)][4], or [pigsie (Pixies)][2]...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Am I right?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fairy#Etymology&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pixie&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sidhe&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/alfr#Old_Norse" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3864" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="795" RevisionGUID="59b3919f-2ad8-46c6-808b-68fb22ac7c21" CreationDate="2015-05-23T14:36:50.803" UserId="188" Text="'Fairies' are sort of a backformation, right?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3865" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="795" RevisionGUID="59b3919f-2ad8-46c6-808b-68fb22ac7c21" CreationDate="2015-05-23T14:36:50.803" UserId="188" Text="|folklore|fairies|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3866" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="795" RevisionGUID="305716be-0d9a-4699-900c-cddeaaff445c" CreationDate="2015-05-23T14:49:39.577" UserId="188" Comment="Added names tag" Text="|folklore|fairies|names|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3867" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="796" RevisionGUID="4bebd475-c820-4892-8933-b2bdddbcd621" CreationDate="2015-05-23T15:50:37.777" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="I have been reading the Shahnameh, and there's a scene where a demon kisses a character's shoulders, which causes &quot;two black snakes [to grow from the character's] shoulders.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;I have one request to ask of the victorious king, even though I am quite unworthy of it, and this is that he will command me to kiss his shoulders, and rub my eyes and face there.&quot; When Zahhak heard his words he had no notion of what the man was plotting and said, &quot;I grant your request, and may your name be honored for it.&quot; Then he said that the cook should kiss his shoulders, **as if he were his bosom friend**. The demon kissed the king's shoulders, and disappeared forthwith.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Firdawsī. Shahnameh: The Persian Book of Kings. Trans. Dick Davis. New York: Penguin, 2007. Print. )&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems like has some sort of social meaning (like a handshake or a hug), as it is implied that the gesture is reserved for &quot;bosom friends.&quot; Could anyone elaborate on this?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3868" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="796" RevisionGUID="4bebd475-c820-4892-8933-b2bdddbcd621" CreationDate="2015-05-23T15:50:37.777" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="What is the significance of kissing someone's shoulder in the Shahnameh" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3869" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="796" RevisionGUID="4bebd475-c820-4892-8933-b2bdddbcd621" CreationDate="2015-05-23T15:50:37.777" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="|shahnameh|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3870" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="796" RevisionGUID="084df31d-057f-440b-9621-0ed10161a68e" CreationDate="2015-05-23T15:56:10.917" UserId="183" Comment="edited tags; edited title" Text="What is the significance of kissing someone's shoulder in the Shahnameh?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3871" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="796" RevisionGUID="084df31d-057f-440b-9621-0ed10161a68e" CreationDate="2015-05-23T15:56:10.917" UserId="183" Comment="edited tags; edited title" Text="|shahnameh|persian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3872" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="797" RevisionGUID="6610fff1-7c35-4aa2-8bc5-7526425d3945" CreationDate="2015-05-23T16:10:04.583" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3873" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="798" RevisionGUID="76b9102f-1d67-4371-8f42-1b35f2a53c11" CreationDate="2015-05-23T16:10:04.583" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3874" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="799" RevisionGUID="5299da6e-bf66-48ed-b9d6-779f72721e63" CreationDate="2015-05-23T16:17:23.930" UserId="183" Text="Shoulder kissing is a tradition that seems to be practiced as a greeting in, among other places, Saudi Arabia and Iran.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[*The Guardian*](http://www.theguardian.com/news/blog/2009/aug/03/iran-ahmadinejad-president-trials) has an article about one instance:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, was supposed to be endorsing Mahmoud Ahmadinejad for his second term as the president of Iran, but his awkward body language at today's ceremony has again raised questions about possible splits in the regime.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ahmadinejad was permitted only a peck on the shoulder of Khamenei, and the supreme leader did not embrace the president as he did four years ago.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[A blog](http://americanbedu.com/2009/05/12/how-to-kiss-saudi-style/) writes (emphasis mine)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A Saudi man greeting another Saudi man whom he knows and respects will likely shake nose-kissinghis hand, embrace him and kiss him. Usually like with the women, the kiss will take place on either side of the cheek. Sometimes they will exchange multiple “air kisses” to the sides of each others neck. Other times Saudi men who are well known to one another may share a brief “nose kiss” which is the tips of the noses touching. **Or if a Saudi man is an elder, the younger male may show his respect with a kiss to the shoulder, the hand or perhaps on the forehead. This manner in showing of affection is a natural custom and tradition in Saudi Arabia.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This indicates even more clearly that the gesture is between a subordinate and an elder. This seems to be more of a tradition, rather than an event specific to a myth." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3875" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="798" RevisionGUID="808c1658-0a24-4dcc-b56b-4c7e60fdd357" CreationDate="2015-05-23T16:19:09.627" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 58 characters in body" Text="The &quot;Persian book of kings&quot; and the national epic of Iran." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3876" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="798" RevisionGUID="808c1658-0a24-4dcc-b56b-4c7e60fdd357" CreationDate="2015-05-23T16:19:09.627" Comment="Proposed by 62 approved by 183 edit id of 201" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3877" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="797" RevisionGUID="6eb406e2-eb7e-4f4b-b43f-46c191645974" CreationDate="2015-05-23T16:19:14.333" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 58 characters in body" Text="The &quot;Persian book of kings&quot; and the national epic of Iran." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3878" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="797" RevisionGUID="6eb406e2-eb7e-4f4b-b43f-46c191645974" CreationDate="2015-05-23T16:19:14.333" Comment="Proposed by 62 approved by 183 edit id of 200" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3879" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="800" RevisionGUID="8804c32c-d9f9-4e5d-bfca-e2b9f1b5cddf" CreationDate="2015-05-23T17:15:33.397" UserId="183" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3880" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="801" RevisionGUID="df62219b-2980-495f-8bda-3f22fd1a8631" CreationDate="2015-05-23T17:15:33.397" UserId="183" Text="For questions about the history of a name, including its evolution and the words and language it stems from." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3881" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="802" RevisionGUID="cab61c1a-50a6-4f17-8241-fb919ef59e53" CreationDate="2015-05-23T17:16:03.767" UserId="183" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3882" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="803" RevisionGUID="ef8fff83-7a54-458f-be31-d782906993f1" CreationDate="2015-05-23T17:16:03.767" UserId="183" Text="For questions about the tales and legends of Africa." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3883" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="804" RevisionGUID="229d2e12-97c1-4ab9-ad3b-98d74483415a" CreationDate="2015-05-23T17:16:45.823" UserId="183" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3884" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="805" RevisionGUID="17a4bf77-791c-47fd-a4fa-09728d1d70b3" CreationDate="2015-05-23T17:16:45.823" UserId="183" Text="For questions about the mythology and traditions surrounding a ceremony commemorating a person's passing." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3885" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="806" RevisionGUID="fc8ea3b7-730c-4b70-ac0d-f284d5093de2" CreationDate="2015-05-23T17:20:21.460" UserId="183" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3886" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="807" RevisionGUID="bee921da-14a5-4df4-9455-2102fae30fc8" CreationDate="2015-05-23T17:20:21.460" UserId="183" Text="For questions about a practice commemorating some event, either taking place in or inspired by mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3887" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="808" RevisionGUID="94309b0c-f536-45d1-b745-b66b6a2676ce" CreationDate="2015-05-23T17:20:45.500" UserId="183" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3888" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="809" RevisionGUID="0ec5c0be-74bc-4570-a49f-77fa2f70783a" CreationDate="2015-05-23T17:20:45.500" UserId="183" Text="For questions about the descent and heritage (as well as offspring) of a being." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3889" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="810" RevisionGUID="7931db41-ac75-4a8f-a2a1-5cc0fb0ff183" CreationDate="2015-05-23T17:21:51.567" UserId="183" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3890" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="811" RevisionGUID="8aa0731d-9043-43a5-9b54-a103adef650a" CreationDate="2015-05-23T17:21:51.567" UserId="183" Text="For questions about the mythology and stories of the Jewish religion; do not use this tag for general questions about Judaism." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3891" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="812" RevisionGUID="aac7f6cc-4064-45e8-b497-41dfad957a74" CreationDate="2015-05-23T17:23:10.550" UserId="183" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3892" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="813" RevisionGUID="a43b466b-1472-4e1d-8b2a-56f50c0f6e37" CreationDate="2015-05-23T17:23:10.550" UserId="183" Text="For questions about the mythology and legends of the Navajo tribe of western North America." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3893" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="814" RevisionGUID="c611d261-3616-4f52-a808-0ad906e37ebd" CreationDate="2015-05-23T17:23:59.610" UserId="183" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3894" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="815" RevisionGUID="ad319477-b068-4229-bbd8-2fbe2909ea67" CreationDate="2015-05-23T17:23:59.610" UserId="183" Text="For questions about the mythology of the people of Polynesia, and group of islands in the Pacific Ocean." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3895" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="816" RevisionGUID="8b62f534-8cdb-4b04-80ac-b9eaca761ce4" CreationDate="2015-05-23T17:24:41.853" UserId="183" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3896" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="817" RevisionGUID="0b129c5c-6b07-410a-87bb-b7948144ad35" CreationDate="2015-05-23T17:24:41.853" UserId="183" Text="For questions about the occurrence or significance of numbers in a specific myth or set of myths." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3898" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="795" RevisionGUID="b356ba45-5faf-4f01-bd44-afacb2a1f45b" CreationDate="2015-05-23T17:29:14.007" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="hopefully made clearer)" Text="From [Wiktionary: Fairy : Etymology][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; From Middle English fairie, from Old French faerie, the -erie abstract of fae, from Vulgar Latin Fāta (“goddess of fate”), from Latin fātum (“fate”)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This seems to indicate that 'fairies' is a term that was made up to encompass all those Fairy Tales (like how all/most Pagan Gods -&gt; Demons in Christianity in the past). That would indicate that what we call 'fairies' were, in the languages that their stories originated from, ['sidhe'][3], ['alfar' (Elves)][4], or [pigsie (Pixies)][2]...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Could someone confirm my theory?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fairy#Etymology&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pixie&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sidhe&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/alfr#Old_Norse" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3899" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="795" RevisionGUID="b356ba45-5faf-4f01-bd44-afacb2a1f45b" CreationDate="2015-05-23T17:29:14.007" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="hopefully made clearer)" Text="Did the word &quot;fairies&quot; originate after the creation of stories about fairies?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3900" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="818" RevisionGUID="90e37508-04be-42b2-beac-9a31fa3a5eed" CreationDate="2015-05-23T17:29:21.590" UserId="183" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3901" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="819" RevisionGUID="a19c3546-37c7-438d-8a17-c33a0861a1f8" CreationDate="2015-05-23T17:29:21.590" UserId="183" Text="For questions about stories contained in the five books of the Tanakh, which are central to Judaism." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3902" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="820" RevisionGUID="d42253e9-e932-4012-a206-a11f7ac31e0f" CreationDate="2015-05-23T17:30:41.533" UserId="183" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3903" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="821" RevisionGUID="653bc819-8eb1-4edb-8d67-440fd7edf6b6" CreationDate="2015-05-23T17:30:41.533" UserId="183" Text="For questions about myths related to times when the Sun, Earth and Moon align, creating a shadow on either the Earth or the Moon caused by the other body blocking the Sun's light." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3904" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="822" RevisionGUID="090475a2-487e-4ae2-b535-24b2b49cae4b" CreationDate="2015-05-23T18:19:24.630" UserId="183" Text="In Geoffrey of Monmouth's [*Historia Regum Brittaniae*](http://books.google.com/books/reader?id=FUoMAAAAIAAJ&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;output=reader&amp;source=gbs_atb_hover&amp;pg=GBS.PA19), Brutus wanders about western Europe, stopping in, amongst other places, Aquitane and Gaul. He vanquished Goffarius, king of the Pictavians at Aquitane, with the help of Corineus, the leader of the people who will become known as the Cornish. The next passage (page 17) reads,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The king [Goffarius] after a narrow escape went to several parts of Gaul, to procure succours among such princes as were related or known to him. At that time Gaul was subject to twelve princes, who with equal authority possess the whole country. These receive him courteously, and promise with one consent to expel the foreigners from Aquitane.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who were the twelve princes?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3905" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="822" RevisionGUID="090475a2-487e-4ae2-b535-24b2b49cae4b" CreationDate="2015-05-23T18:19:24.630" UserId="183" Text="Who were the twelve princes of Gaul?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3906" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="822" RevisionGUID="090475a2-487e-4ae2-b535-24b2b49cae4b" CreationDate="2015-05-23T18:19:24.630" UserId="183" Text="|historia-regum-brittaniae|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3907" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="823" RevisionGUID="ccc814e8-3bf6-4ccb-a530-5ec52c8c1013" CreationDate="2015-05-23T18:21:15.367" UserId="183" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3908" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="824" RevisionGUID="dfac2324-7ea5-41e9-b05a-d6ca5eae55b9" CreationDate="2015-05-23T18:21:15.367" UserId="183" Text="For questions about the tale by Geoffrey of Monmouth about the fictitious chronology of the history of the kings of Britain." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3909" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="825" RevisionGUID="291cd2e1-c557-46e1-bb5e-5721c55be132" CreationDate="2015-05-23T19:55:59.997" UserId="197" Text="There are legends in several mythologies about who invented writing, or a particular writing system (script).  For example, the futhark runes used to write Norse were invented by the god Odin, and there is a legend recounting how the humans came to know them.  Middle-Earth mythology claims that the tengwar, which was the first writing system, was invented by the elf Feanor.  I believe there is a legend about the invention of Chinese writing (hanzi) as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a similar legend in ancient Greek mythology?  According to the ancient Greeks, who has invented writing, or the first writing system, or letters, the alphabet, or the abjad?  Does writing originate from the gods, and if so, did the gods use it before the humans, and did Prometheus or Hephaistos teach it to the humans?  Or did the gods have no use for recording anything in writing permanently, given that they were immortal, in which case writing is a human invention? &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3910" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="825" RevisionGUID="291cd2e1-c557-46e1-bb5e-5721c55be132" CreationDate="2015-05-23T19:55:59.997" UserId="197" Text="Who invented writing, or who taught writing to the mortals, according to Greek myths?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3911" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="825" RevisionGUID="291cd2e1-c557-46e1-bb5e-5721c55be132" CreationDate="2015-05-23T19:55:59.997" UserId="197" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3912" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="825" RevisionGUID="3ff80d83-7321-4b8e-808d-c7928444b968" CreationDate="2015-05-23T20:18:26.243" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3916" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="827" RevisionGUID="276623b0-0f61-40a0-8325-ffec712a0fac" CreationDate="2015-05-23T22:18:05.360" UserId="215" Text="From Wikipedia article on Diomedes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Diomedes, in turn, **married Aegialeus's daughter Aegialia** when he returned from battle. He was then appointed as the King of Argos and thus became one of the most powerful rulers of Hellas at such a young age.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(*the battle referred to in the first sentence is battle at Glisas, during Epigoni war*).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later on, as explanation of why he joined the Achaean expedition to Troy, it says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Diomedes became one of the suitors of Helen** and, as such, he was bound by the oath of Tyndareus, which established that all the suitors would defend and protect the man who was chosen as Helen's husband against any wrong done against him in regard to his marriage. Accordingly, when the seducer Paris stole Menelaus' wife, all those who had sworn the oath were summoned by Agamemnon (Menelaus’ brother), so that they would join the coalition that was to sail from Aulis to Troy in order to demand the restoration of Helen and the Spartan property that was stolen.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**How is it possible that a married man was allowed to be one of the suitors of Helen?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I considered that Wikipedia's narrative merely reversed the chronological order of the two events, but all descriptions I saw of the suitors of Helen was that they were kings/princes, and Diomedes only became a ruler post-marriage." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3917" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="827" RevisionGUID="276623b0-0f61-40a0-8325-ffec712a0fac" CreationDate="2015-05-23T22:18:05.360" UserId="215" Text="How could Diomedes be married yet still be Helen's suitor?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3918" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="827" RevisionGUID="276623b0-0f61-40a0-8325-ffec712a0fac" CreationDate="2015-05-23T22:18:05.360" UserId="215" Text="|greek|iliad|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3919" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="828" RevisionGUID="e4cbc15b-1c00-4a71-9b09-51a7bea2ba34" CreationDate="2015-05-23T22:35:35.477" UserId="215" Text="An important point in the story of the Iliad is that Odysseus (hoping to win the hand of Penelope, King Tyndareus niece), proposes an &quot;Oath of Tyndareus&quot;, which binds all the suitors of Helen to join one another if one of the suitors abducts her after she marries one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That Oath was what provided the legal pretext for the whole of Trojan expedition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It **also** provided the reason for Odysseus to be sent to Troy (resulting in both the fall of Troy and the &quot;Odyssey&quot;), for he was one of the suitors of Helen!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**If Odyssey actually wanted to marry Penelope and not Helen, why was he even among the suitors of Helen in the first place?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First, it seemed entirely useless to him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Second, that roped him into the whole adventure, and he should have been wily enough to realize it was the risk.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3920" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="828" RevisionGUID="e4cbc15b-1c00-4a71-9b09-51a7bea2ba34" CreationDate="2015-05-23T22:35:35.477" UserId="215" Text="Why did Odysseus pretend to be Helen's suitor if he wanted to win Penelope?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3921" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="828" RevisionGUID="e4cbc15b-1c00-4a71-9b09-51a7bea2ba34" CreationDate="2015-05-23T22:35:35.477" UserId="215" Text="|greek|iliad|odyssey|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3922" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="827" RevisionGUID="cb4a921a-15bf-4574-bf2f-a64799865098" CreationDate="2015-05-23T22:44:05.140" UserId="215" Comment="added 93 characters in body" Text="From Wikipedia article on Diomedes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Diomedes, in turn, **married Aegialeus's daughter Aegialia** when he returned from battle. He was then appointed as the King of Argos and thus became one of the most powerful rulers of Hellas at such a young age.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(*the battle referred to in the first sentence is battle at Glisas, during Epigoni war*).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later on, as explanation of why he joined the Achaean expedition to Troy, it says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Diomedes became one of the suitors of Helen** and, as such, he was bound by the oath of Tyndareus, which established that all the suitors would defend and protect the man who was chosen as Helen's husband against any wrong done against him in regard to his marriage. Accordingly, when the seducer Paris stole Menelaus' wife, all those who had sworn the oath were summoned by Agamemnon (Menelaus’ brother), so that they would join the coalition that was to sail from Aulis to Troy in order to demand the restoration of Helen and the Spartan property that was stolen.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**How is it possible that a married man was allowed to be one of the suitors of Helen?** (either by his wife, or - from Ancient Greek viewpoint - more importantly, by Tyndareus)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I considered that Wikipedia's narrative merely reversed the chronological order of the two events, but all descriptions I saw of the suitors of Helen was that they were kings/princes, and Diomedes only became a ruler post-marriage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3923" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="828" RevisionGUID="4cd76761-21b7-43f2-8c5d-e2fe623ad1c3" CreationDate="2015-05-23T22:47:10.923" UserId="215" Comment="added 92 characters in body" Text="An important point in the story of the Iliad is that Odysseus (hoping to win the hand of Penelope, King Tyndareus niece), proposes an &quot;Oath of Tyndareus&quot;, which binds all the suitors of Helen to join one another if one of the suitors abducts her after she marries one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That Oath was what provided the legal pretext for the whole of Trojan expedition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It **also** provided the reason for Odysseus to be sent to Troy (resulting in both the fall of Troy and the &quot;Odyssey&quot;), for he was one of the suitors of Helen! (and he clearly had no wish to go, as evidenced by attempt to fake insanity when summoned).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**If Odyssey actually wanted to marry Penelope and not Helen, why was he even among the suitors of Helen in the first place?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First, it seemed entirely useless to him. He could have proposed the Oath without being a Suitor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Second, that roped him into the whole adventure, and he should have been wily enough to realize it was the risk.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3924" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="689" RevisionGUID="c5f22782-1515-4e73-a9f8-84cdbd09761d" CreationDate="2015-05-24T13:38:45.300" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="Olwen is someone different" Text="In *[Culhwch and Olwen](http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/culhwch.html)*, King Kilydd's wife, Goleuddydd, dies in childbirth, leaving behind the king's only son. She tells him to go forth and remarry once two briar blossoms bloom on her grave, and he does so when the blossoms appear seven years later.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He finds a maiden to marry, kills her husband (another king), and plans to marry her. Then something curious happens (dramatic emphasis mine).&#xD;&#xA;&gt; On a certain day, as the lady walked abroad, she came to the house of an old crone that dwelt in the town, and that had no tooth in her head. And the queen said to her, &quot;Old woman, tell me that which I shall ask thee, for the love of Heaven. Where are the children of the man who has carried me away by violence?&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Said the crone, &quot;He has not children.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Said the queen, &quot;Woe is me, that I should have come to one who is childless!&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then said the hag, &quot;Thou needest not lament on account of that, for there is a prediction that he shall have an heir by thee, and by none other. Moreover, be not sorrowful, for he has one son.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The lady returned home with joy; and she asked her consort, **&quot;Wherefore hast thou concealed thy children from me?&quot;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The king said, &quot;I will do so no longer.&quot; And he sent messengers for his son, and he was brought to the Court.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm somewhat confused by the fact that the crone at first says that Kilydd has no children, then tells his new wife the truth. Even more puzzling, though, is that the king concealed his son.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question is the same as the unnamed wife's: Why did Kilydd hide his son from her?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3925" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="689" RevisionGUID="f4cc4428-9f0f-4103-ba31-af5cc248e3d5" CreationDate="2015-05-24T14:02:48.020" UserId="183" Comment="edited title" Text="Why did King Kilydd conceal his son from his wife?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3926" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="487" RevisionGUID="187a6a92-d8d1-4251-9fe9-1fe452ad0a68" CreationDate="2015-05-24T14:10:48.813" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="third source" Text="The Mabinogion is a series of tales centered on four major &quot;branches&quot;; it also includes other short stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can read a translation on [SacredTexts.com][1], or at [Mabinogi.net][2]. The first translation includes eight additional stories&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;, but the second translation is more accurate. A third translation (along with other [tag:welsh] texts) is available at [AncientTexts.org][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; The [tag:the-native-tales] stories, which are sometimes considered supplemental to the four main stories&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/index.htm#contents&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.mabinogi.net/translations.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/index_welsh.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3927" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="487" RevisionGUID="187a6a92-d8d1-4251-9fe9-1fe452ad0a68" CreationDate="2015-05-24T14:10:48.813" Comment="Proposed by 62 approved by 183 edit id of 202" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3928" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="829" RevisionGUID="5f344a52-7ed8-4c3c-88bb-447a4cccb589" CreationDate="2015-05-24T14:20:34.277" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="King Kylydd did the right thing in concealing his son from his new wife, because once she sees Kilhwch (Culhwch), she places a curse on him (after he refuses to marry her daughter):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; His stepmother said unto him, &quot;It were well for thee to have a wife,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and I have a daughter who is sought of every man of renown in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; world.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;I am not yet of an age to wed,&quot; answered the youth. Then she said&#xD;&#xA;&gt; unto him, &quot;I declare to thee, that it is thy destiny not to be suited&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with a wife until thou obtain Olwen, the daughter of Yspaddaden&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Penkawr.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is easy to miss, because the characters act like it's no big deal: Kilhwch is told that it &quot;will be easy for thee&quot; to marry Olwen. However, keep in mind the following three things:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. It wasn't easy: the characters have to achieve several supposedly impossible magical tasks in order for Kilhwch to be able to marry Olwen.&#xD;&#xA;2. These characters are accustomed to magic (the relationship between the real world and the magical world is a common theme in the Mabinogion).&#xD;&#xA;3. A central theme in the story is the control of reproductive power. This story features a &quot;jealous stepmother&quot; motif; to quote from [Will Parker's Mabinogion.info][1] (which quotes Stephen Knight's Culhwch analysis):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;   &gt; The threat represented in the essential plot of the story us the failure of the family to reproduce itself. The stepmother’s curse means Culhwch will either go childless or be killed by the giant … the central fear [is] of a sterile generation and of reproductive power lying in enemy hands, whether giants or stepmothers. (Arthurian Literature and Society Macmillan Press, 1963 pp 16-18)&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;    The story is, in a way, a precursor to stories like Cinderella: the stepmother wants to control the father, so she controls the father's children with his first wife.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't know why the crone first concealed Kilhwch (Culhwch) from the stepmother, and then revealed Kilhwch to her. That could be explained as an inconsistency in the text, or as the stepmother persuading the crone with her emotion by her &quot;lament on account of that.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(The stepmother said &quot;woe is me, that I should have come to one who is childless!&quot; when she heard King Kilydd had no children. This is another example of the importance of fertility: she wants to be able to have children and control the King.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.mabinogion.info/culhwch.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3929" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="487" RevisionGUID="d0047b5b-456e-4da1-babb-8bf476550ec8" CreationDate="2015-05-24T15:01:46.853" UserId="183" Comment="added 17 characters in body" Text="The Mabinogion is a series of tales centered on four major &quot;branches&quot;; it also includes other short stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can read a translation on [SacredTexts.com][1], or at [Mabinogi.net][2]. The first translation includes eight additional stories&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;, but the second translation is more accurate. A third translation (along with other [tag:welsh] and [tag:celtic] texts) is available at [AncientTexts.org][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; The [tag:the-native-tales] stories, which are sometimes considered supplemental to the four main stories&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/index.htm#contents&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.mabinogi.net/translations.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/index_welsh.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3930" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="540" RevisionGUID="bca2f016-5f6c-43e8-b48d-af5bfb327f45" CreationDate="2015-05-24T15:02:48.770" UserId="183" Comment="added 162 characters in body" Text="See http://meta.mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/109/is-asking-for-resources-and-myth-identification-allowed for information about [tag:myth-identification]." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3931" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="350" RevisionGUID="e6740d10-906d-4371-a36f-f335ead5f327" CreationDate="2015-05-24T15:04:39.217" UserId="183" Comment="added 114 characters in body" Text="The Epic of Gilgamesh is a Mesopotamian epic poem about Gilgamesh, a king who, after the death of his friend Enkidu, sets out to achieve immortality. This tag can also be used to refer to Gilgamesh himself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Project Gutenberg text is available [here](http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/11000) in a variety of formats." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3932" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="579" RevisionGUID="8dd748f9-159d-4658-8ec8-3ee58beb8a4c" CreationDate="2015-05-24T15:05:39.163" UserId="183" Comment="added 111 characters in body" Text="A translation of the [tag:tain-bo-cuailnge] can be found [here](http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3933" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="707" RevisionGUID="4852ac8f-51ec-46d7-8989-4eb9713a6908" CreationDate="2015-05-24T15:06:33.923" UserId="183" Comment="added 20 characters in body" Text="For questions about a body of Irish mythology dealing with traditional heroes of the Ulaid (Ulster), also known as the Red Branch Cycle." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3934" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="668" RevisionGUID="be47daec-c38e-4f27-a76c-6119ecb73287" CreationDate="2015-05-24T15:08:16.660" UserId="183" Comment="added 190 characters in body" Text="Translations of [tag:the-native-tales] can be found [here](http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/index.html), along with translations of other [tag:celtic] (and even more) texts." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3935" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="550" RevisionGUID="ac31f7f9-a834-46a5-93bd-224501666826" CreationDate="2015-05-24T15:11:58.360" UserId="183" Comment="added 353 characters in body" Text="See http://meta.mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/173/tag-rename-australian-australian-aboriginal-or-australian-aborigines for a discussion about using this tag.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Many indigenous tribes prefer to keep their mythology a secret, as it is a crucial part of their cultures. Be careful when researching and writing answers for questions using this tag." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3936" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="551" RevisionGUID="63e07451-6c5c-436e-b398-0d6fc0393334" CreationDate="2015-05-24T15:11:58.360" UserId="183" Comment="added 22 characters in body" Text="For questions regarding the mythology of the indigenous peoples of Australia." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3937" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="753" RevisionGUID="6902e2bb-7500-437b-9cac-01b9a43086d3" CreationDate="2015-05-24T15:13:04.633" UserId="183" Comment="added 99 characters in body; added 4 characters in body" Text="One translation of [tag:vita-merlini] can be found [here](http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/merlini.html)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3938" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="262" RevisionGUID="f50a184c-779d-4187-bd05-2fbffc72ab87" CreationDate="2015-05-24T15:14:40.327" UserId="183" Comment="added 223 characters in body" Text="A translation of the [tag:popol-vuh] can be found [here](http://www.mesoweb.com/publications/Christenson/PopolVuh.pdf); an older version can be found [here](http://library.osu.edu/projects/popolwuj/), in multiple languages." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3939" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="263" RevisionGUID="30a76900-b989-40cc-aee3-b4c31bdb6262" CreationDate="2015-05-24T15:14:40.327" UserId="183" Comment="edited body" Text="For questions regarding the stories within the holy book of the Quiche Maya people of pre-Columbian South America" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3940" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="705" RevisionGUID="ec026f19-2425-4aee-b3eb-0acadb8462eb" CreationDate="2015-05-24T15:16:25.293" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 31 characters in body" Text="For questions about the language of the First Nations peoples of British Columbia." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3941" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="823" RevisionGUID="a6e9286e-391f-4b8b-ae1d-92c1ce316a76" CreationDate="2015-05-24T15:17:06.703" UserId="183" Comment="added 199 characters in body" Text="One translation of [tag:historia-regum-brittaniae] can be found [here](https://books.google.com/books/reader?id=FUoMAAAAIAAJ&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;output=reader&amp;source=gbs_atb_hover&amp;pg=GBS.PA19&amp;hl=en)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3942" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="830" RevisionGUID="ddc8c251-890a-468f-ad93-11a0fbae3f16" CreationDate="2015-05-24T15:21:58.837" UserId="183" Text="The Project Gutenberg version of [tag:journey-to-the-west] can be found [here](http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/23962)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3943" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="831" RevisionGUID="50902377-99eb-4224-9523-46193dae79bd" CreationDate="2015-05-24T15:21:58.837" UserId="183" Text="For questions about the Chinese epic by Wu Cheng'en." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3944" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="366" RevisionGUID="51d1c0a2-9d18-4113-b959-9e83f40895e0" CreationDate="2015-05-24T15:22:20.913" UserId="183" Comment="added 9 characters in body" Text="Use this tag for questions history as represented in mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3945" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="797" RevisionGUID="bffb2646-c66c-4288-9de6-b6f57f151344" CreationDate="2015-05-24T15:23:35.130" UserId="183" Comment="added 122 characters in body" Text="The [tag:shahnameh], the &quot;Persian book of kings&quot; and the national epic of Iran.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A translation can be found [here](http://www.iranchamber.com/literature/shahnameh/shahnameh.php)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3946" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="798" RevisionGUID="e3871de3-8586-4cd6-ae64-8292ff0622f0" CreationDate="2015-05-24T15:23:35.130" UserId="183" Comment="added 20 characters in body" Text="For questions about the &quot;Persian book of kings&quot; and the national epic of Iran." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3947" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="439" RevisionGUID="0e03d6db-e32f-4325-ab77-96d305ba41e2" CreationDate="2015-05-24T15:32:44.793" UserId="183" Comment="added 24 characters in body" Text="For questions about the book by Homer about the ten-year travels of Odysseus, a Greek hero, after fighting in the Trojan War." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3948" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="732" RevisionGUID="0901e361-9f77-4acf-b84d-622efdcc6913" CreationDate="2015-05-24T15:32:57.010" UserId="183" Comment="added 47 characters in body; added 97 characters in body" Text="See also the [tag:odyssey] tag for another epic by Homer about the Trojan War.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Project Gutenberg translation can be found [here](http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/16452)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3949" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="438" RevisionGUID="7448eb80-8c57-48a7-9622-6f89df314783" CreationDate="2015-05-24T15:35:29.157" UserId="183" Comment="added 96 characters in body" Text="See also the [tag:iliad] tag for another epic by Homer about the Trojan War.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Project Gutenberg translation can be found [here](http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/3160)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3950" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="832" RevisionGUID="570aa7da-9f3e-4cc9-8a66-d1894c98f2e9" CreationDate="2015-05-24T19:10:30.663" UserId="57" Text="The strongest candidate for a god of writing would be Hermes, the god of - amongst other things - language: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Also the Guide, the Slayer of Argus, contrived within her lies and crafty words and a deceitful nature at the will of loud thundering Zeus, and the Herald of the gods put speech in her. And he called this woman Pandora, because all they who dwelt on Olympus gave each a gift, a plague to men who eat bread.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hesiod, Works and Days](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0020.tlg002.perseus-eng1:59-82)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Plato elaborates on Hermes' association with language, in Cratylus: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Hermogenes**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; I will do so, but first one more god. I want to ask you about Hermes, since Cratylus says I am not Hermogenes (son of Hermes). Let us investigate the name of Hermes, to find out whether there is anything in what he says.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Socrates**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Well then, this name “Hermes” seems to me to have to do with speech; he is an interpreter (ἡρμηνεύς) and a messenger, is wily and deceptive in speech, and is oratorical. All this activity is concerned with the power of speech. Now, as I said before, εἴρειν denotes the use of speech; moreover, Homer often uses the word ἐμήσατο, which means “contrive.” From these two words, then, the lawgiver imposes upon us the name of this god who contrived speech and the use of speech—εἴρειν means “speak” and tells us: “Ye human beings, he who contrived speech (εἴρειν ἐμήσατο) ought to be called Eiremes by you.” We, however, have beautified the name, as we imagine, and call him Hermes. Iris also seems to have got her name from εἴρειν, because she is a messenger.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source [Plato, Cratylus](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0059.tlg005.perseus-eng1:408)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hermes was the messenger of the gods, and naturally writing would be essential to him. He isn't however credited with inventing writing, at least not until Roman times: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [143] CXLIII. PHORONEUS&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Inachus, son of Oceanus, begat Phoroneus by his sister Argia, and he is said to have been the first of mortals to rule. Men for many centuries before lived without town or laws, speaking one tongue under the rule of Jove. But after Mercury had explained the languages of men (when he is called ermeneutes, “interpreter,” for Mercury in Greek is called Hermes; he too, divided the nations), then discord arose among mortals, which was not pleasing to Jove. And so he gave over the first rule to Phoroneus, because hew as first to make offerings to Juno.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [277] CCLXXVII. FIRST INVENTORS&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Parcae, Clotho, Lachesis, and Atropos invented seven Greek letters - A B H T I Y.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Others say that Mercury invented them from the flight of cranes, which, when they fly, form letters.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Palamedes, too, son of Nauplius, invented eleven letters; Simonides, too, invented four letters – Ó E Z PH; Epicharmus of Sicily, two - P and PS.    &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Greek letters Mercury is said to have brought to Egypt, and from Egypt Cadmus took them to Greece. Cadmus in exile from Arcadia, took them to Italy, and his mother Carmenta changed them to Latin to the number of 15.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollo on the lyre added the rest.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Myths of Hyginus, translated and edited by Mary Grant](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusFabulae1.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyginus belief that Hermes brought the Greek letters from Egypt is interesting because Hermes would some times be identified with [Thoth](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoth), who the Egyptians credited with the invention of writing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, the Greeks probably didn't think of writing as a product of divine inspiration; in fact, they had a pretty good idea where their alphabet came from:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These Phoenicians who came with [Cadmus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadmus) and of whom the Gephyraeans were a part brought with them to Hellas, among many other kinds of learning, the alphabet, which had been unknown before this, I think, to the Greeks. As time went on the sound and the form of the letters were changed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Herodotus, The Histories, Book 5, chapter 58, section 1](http://data.perseus.org/citations/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0016.tlg001.perseus-eng1:5.58.1)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3951" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="832" RevisionGUID="fc89182e-0793-4ebd-b9ee-a81ba634523e" CreationDate="2015-05-24T19:17:35.057" UserId="57" Comment="added 39 characters in body" Text="The strongest candidate for a god of writing would be [Hermes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes), the god of - amongst other things - language: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Also the Guide, the Slayer of Argus, contrived within her lies and crafty words and a deceitful nature at the will of loud thundering Zeus, and the Herald of the gods put speech in her. And he called this woman Pandora, because all they who dwelt on Olympus gave each a gift, a plague to men who eat bread.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hesiod, Works and Days](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0020.tlg002.perseus-eng1:59-82)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Plato elaborates on Hermes' association with language, in Cratylus: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Hermogenes**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; I will do so, but first one more god. I want to ask you about Hermes, since Cratylus says I am not Hermogenes (son of Hermes). Let us investigate the name of Hermes, to find out whether there is anything in what he says.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Socrates**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Well then, this name “Hermes” seems to me to have to do with speech; he is an interpreter (ἡρμηνεύς) and a messenger, is wily and deceptive in speech, and is oratorical. All this activity is concerned with the power of speech. Now, as I said before, εἴρειν denotes the use of speech; moreover, Homer often uses the word ἐμήσατο, which means “contrive.” From these two words, then, the lawgiver imposes upon us the name of this god who contrived speech and the use of speech—εἴρειν means “speak” and tells us: “Ye human beings, he who contrived speech (εἴρειν ἐμήσατο) ought to be called Eiremes by you.” We, however, have beautified the name, as we imagine, and call him Hermes. Iris also seems to have got her name from εἴρειν, because she is a messenger.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source [Plato, Cratylus](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0059.tlg005.perseus-eng1:408)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hermes was the messenger of the gods, and naturally writing would be essential to him. He isn't however credited with inventing writing, at least not until Roman times: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [143] CXLIII. PHORONEUS&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Inachus, son of Oceanus, begat Phoroneus by his sister Argia, and he is said to have been the first of mortals to rule. Men for many centuries before lived without town or laws, speaking one tongue under the rule of Jove. But after Mercury had explained the languages of men (when he is called ermeneutes, “interpreter,” for Mercury in Greek is called Hermes; he too, divided the nations), then discord arose among mortals, which was not pleasing to Jove. And so he gave over the first rule to Phoroneus, because hew as first to make offerings to Juno.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [277] CCLXXVII. FIRST INVENTORS&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Parcae, Clotho, Lachesis, and Atropos invented seven Greek letters - A B H T I Y.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Others say that Mercury invented them from the flight of cranes, which, when they fly, form letters.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Palamedes, too, son of Nauplius, invented eleven letters; Simonides, too, invented four letters – Ó E Z PH; Epicharmus of Sicily, two - P and PS.    &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Greek letters Mercury is said to have brought to Egypt, and from Egypt Cadmus took them to Greece. Cadmus in exile from Arcadia, took them to Italy, and his mother Carmenta changed them to Latin to the number of 15.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollo on the lyre added the rest.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Myths of Hyginus, translated and edited by Mary Grant](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusFabulae1.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyginus belief that Hermes brought the Greek letters from Egypt is interesting because Hermes would some times be identified with [Thoth](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoth), who the Egyptians credited with the invention of writing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, the Greeks probably didn't think of writing as a product of divine inspiration; in fact, they had a pretty good idea where their alphabet came from:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These Phoenicians who came with [Cadmus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadmus) and of whom the Gephyraeans were a part brought with them to Hellas, among many other kinds of learning, the alphabet, which had been unknown before this, I think, to the Greeks. As time went on the sound and the form of the letters were changed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Herodotus, The Histories, Book 5, chapter 58, section 1](http://data.perseus.org/citations/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0016.tlg001.perseus-eng1:5.58.1)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3952" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="832" RevisionGUID="9782c1c8-2179-4226-ac40-64912357e2f0" CreationDate="2015-05-24T19:25:07.100" UserId="57" Comment="added 39 characters in body" Text="The strongest candidate for a god of writing would be [Hermes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes), the god of - amongst other things - language: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Also the Guide, the Slayer of Argus, contrived within her lies and crafty words and a deceitful nature at the will of loud thundering Zeus, and the Herald of the gods put speech in her. And he called this woman Pandora, because all they who dwelt on Olympus gave each a gift, a plague to men who eat bread.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hesiod, Works and Days](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0020.tlg002.perseus-eng1:59-82)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Plato elaborates on Hermes' association with language, in Cratylus: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Hermogenes**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; I will do so, but first one more god. I want to ask you about Hermes, since Cratylus says I am not Hermogenes (son of Hermes). Let us investigate the name of Hermes, to find out whether there is anything in what he says.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Socrates**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Well then, this name “Hermes” seems to me to have to do with speech; he is an interpreter (ἡρμηνεύς) and a messenger, is wily and deceptive in speech, and is oratorical. All this activity is concerned with the power of speech. Now, as I said before, εἴρειν denotes the use of speech; moreover, Homer often uses the word ἐμήσατο, which means “contrive.” From these two words, then, the lawgiver imposes upon us the name of this god who contrived speech and the use of speech—εἴρειν means “speak” and tells us: “Ye human beings, he who contrived speech (εἴρειν ἐμήσατο) ought to be called Eiremes by you.” We, however, have beautified the name, as we imagine, and call him Hermes. Iris also seems to have got her name from εἴρειν, because she is a messenger.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source [Plato, Cratylus](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0059.tlg005.perseus-eng1:408)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hermes was the messenger of the gods, and naturally writing would be essential to him. He isn't however credited with inventing writing, at least not until Roman times: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [143] CXLIII. PHORONEUS&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Inachus, son of Oceanus, begat Phoroneus by his sister Argia, and he is said to have been the first of mortals to rule. Men for many centuries before lived without town or laws, speaking one tongue under the rule of Jove. But after Mercury had explained the languages of men (when he is called ermeneutes, “interpreter,” for Mercury in Greek is called Hermes; he too, divided the nations), then discord arose among mortals, which was not pleasing to Jove. And so he gave over the first rule to Phoroneus, because hew as first to make offerings to Juno.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [277] CCLXXVII. FIRST INVENTORS&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Parcae, Clotho, Lachesis, and Atropos invented seven Greek letters - A B H T I Y.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Others say that Mercury invented them from the flight of cranes, which, when they fly, form letters.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Palamedes, too, son of Nauplius, invented eleven letters; Simonides, too, invented four letters – Ó E Z PH; Epicharmus of Sicily, two - P and PS.    &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Greek letters Mercury is said to have brought to Egypt, and from Egypt Cadmus took them to Greece. Cadmus in exile from Arcadia, took them to Italy, and his mother Carmenta changed them to Latin to the number of 15.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollo on the lyre added the rest.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Myths of Hyginus, translated and edited by Mary Grant](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusFabulae1.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyginus belief that Hermes brought the Greek letters from Egypt is interesting because Hermes would some times be identified with [Thoth](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoth), who the Egyptians credited with the invention of writing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, the Greeks probably didn't think of writing as a product of divine inspiration; in fact, they were aware their alphabet derived from the Phoenician one: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These Phoenicians who came with [Cadmus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadmus) and of whom the Gephyraeans were a part brought with them to Hellas, among many other kinds of learning, the alphabet, which had been unknown before this, I think, to the Greeks. As time went on the sound and the form of the letters were changed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Herodotus, The Histories, Book 5, chapter 58, section 1](http://data.perseus.org/citations/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0016.tlg001.perseus-eng1:5.58.1)&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3954" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="645" RevisionGUID="6acdb6ff-1a05-4571-8f7f-3257f7ed2c19" CreationDate="2015-05-24T20:35:31.643" UserId="183" Comment="added 153 characters in body" Text="For information on how to use this tag, see http://meta.mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/109/is-asking-for-resources-and-myth-identification-allowed" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3955" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="444" RevisionGUID="2a6abf2e-4d18-462e-be81-0fc02128fdac" CreationDate="2015-05-24T20:38:02.570" UserId="183" Comment="added 131 characters in body" Text="See http://meta.mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/170/should-mormon-mythology-be-on-topic for a discussion on Mormon mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3956" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="386" RevisionGUID="85a1ca58-f786-4df8-b35a-c7b46b3af62c" CreationDate="2015-05-24T20:40:47.307" UserId="183" Comment="added 147 characters in body" Text="This tag can also be used for Biblical questions, as per http://meta.mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/130/which-tag-to-use-for-biblical-tales." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3957" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="387" RevisionGUID="671e33ec-8f95-4ad0-885e-ceaeb534be68" CreationDate="2015-05-24T20:40:47.307" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="For questions on Judeo-Christian beliefs shared by both Judaism and Christianity. Questions that only concern one faith should be tagged with [judaism] or [christianity]. See also [abrahamic-religions], which includes Islam." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3958" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="810" RevisionGUID="f4add8e7-b5cf-4330-8755-1b3bc1b21b42" CreationDate="2015-05-24T20:42:03.577" UserId="183" Comment="added 119 characters in body" Text="For general questions about Judaism that are *not* about mythology, see [Mi Yodeya](http://judaism.stackexchange.com/)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3959" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="577" RevisionGUID="b5c12b8e-282f-4c40-83d3-1cd2f44a70d9" CreationDate="2015-05-24T20:43:23.367" UserId="183" Comment="added 90 characters in body" Text="See also http://meta.mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2/is-scientology-on-topic-here." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3960" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="833" RevisionGUID="9eca5ba8-dd72-4c80-b85c-663f9ccc719c" CreationDate="2015-05-24T20:44:42.053" UserId="183" Text="For the differences between [tag:teutonic] and [tag:norse], see http://meta.mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/24/teutonic-vs-norse-tag." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3961" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="834" RevisionGUID="6c1eda88-9a59-416b-a823-30ff997b97e7" CreationDate="2015-05-24T20:44:42.053" UserId="183" Text="For questions about a certain group of Germanic peoples." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3962" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="334" RevisionGUID="c93e7f77-d637-4ba4-b965-b0232d2be1ee" CreationDate="2015-05-24T20:45:07.250" UserId="183" Comment="added 138 characters in body" Text="For the difference between [tag:norse] and [tag:teutonic], see http://meta.mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/24/teutonic-vs-norse-tag." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3963" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="407" RevisionGUID="9444481c-8111-4657-9142-fe029ad5bcc0" CreationDate="2015-05-24T20:46:03.237" UserId="183" Comment="added 127 characters in body" Text="See also http://meta.mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/51/where-should-we-draw-the-line-for-werewolf-and-vampire-questions." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3964" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="446" RevisionGUID="6b4c3857-f59d-4e9d-bf58-23775e3eadc3" CreationDate="2015-05-24T20:46:21.357" UserId="183" Comment="added 127 characters in body" Text="See also http://meta.mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/51/where-should-we-draw-the-line-for-werewolf-and-vampire-questions." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3965" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="115" RevisionGUID="f6660e87-30dc-4d60-8b7b-60cf8b59a9e8" CreationDate="2015-05-24T20:47:04.127" UserId="183" Comment="added 91 characters in body" Text="See also http://meta.mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/39/greek-and-ancient-greek-tags." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3966" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="835" RevisionGUID="13008f93-2e8a-4ea4-94ac-34b523222342" CreationDate="2015-05-24T20:48:06.220" UserId="183" Text="See also http://meta.mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/39/greek-and-ancient-greek-tags." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3967" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="836" RevisionGUID="9bbcdc01-d52e-4ccc-9f66-a38f89b83fc7" CreationDate="2015-05-24T20:48:06.220" UserId="183" Text="For questions about Greek mythology from roughly the 8th century B.C. to the 6th century A.D." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3968" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="837" RevisionGUID="ddb32842-27e5-4cf8-89a3-4cc021399662" CreationDate="2015-05-24T22:00:39.387" UserId="183" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3969" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="838" RevisionGUID="e9e1d12f-3149-4de7-89fe-05fc6f7d3ca2" CreationDate="2015-05-24T22:00:39.387" UserId="183" Text="For questions about the Greek god of, among other things, music, the Sun, and prophecy, who was the twin brother of Artemis." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3970" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="592" RevisionGUID="1e9d1b01-01e2-4189-b789-35692862ea69" CreationDate="2015-05-24T22:01:42.793" UserId="183" Comment="added 53 characters in body" Text="For questions about the Greek goddess, Hera, the wife of Zeus and Queen of the Greek gods." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3971" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="593" RevisionGUID="d264f541-e277-4008-80bf-da8b432dc4e2" CreationDate="2015-05-24T22:01:42.793" UserId="183" Comment="added 53 characters in body" Text="For questions about the Greek goddess, Hera, the wife of Zeus and Queen of the Greek gods." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3972" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="839" RevisionGUID="ef131dfe-b62e-415d-902d-1a94e698a155" CreationDate="2015-05-24T22:02:28.350" UserId="183" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3973" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="840" RevisionGUID="ab65dd05-a4f7-446b-a2b6-b93b77de4d59" CreationDate="2015-05-24T22:02:28.350" UserId="183" Text="For questions about the mythology of cultures of the far north, such as the Chukchi." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3974" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="841" RevisionGUID="cb81f75e-6cfe-4c52-b001-54b83a4ad1bb" CreationDate="2015-05-24T22:02:50.250" UserId="183" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3975" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="842" RevisionGUID="a681177d-928f-437c-9a80-1c1bbdc6b0b6" CreationDate="2015-05-24T22:02:50.250" UserId="183" Text="For questions about the mythology of cultures in the Middle East, such as Persia." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3976" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="843" RevisionGUID="46b85471-01a4-4f97-836c-3efe5dfc504c" CreationDate="2015-05-24T22:03:54.607" UserId="183" Text="See also [tag:valhalla], the other place of the afterlife." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3977" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="844" RevisionGUID="bc0093de-0d58-44b5-8ad0-a3dcd81ca533" CreationDate="2015-05-24T22:03:54.607" UserId="183" Text="For questions about one of the two places of the afterlife in Norse Mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3978" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="585" RevisionGUID="c830a706-d27a-4a9d-a953-82c2b5118191" CreationDate="2015-05-24T22:04:20.170" UserId="183" Comment="added 62 characters in body" Text="See also [tag:folkvangr] for the other place of the afterlife." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3979" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="845" RevisionGUID="7193820e-2346-49f4-9764-bba0d91eeaa8" CreationDate="2015-05-24T23:02:39.577" UserId="351" Text="I have a memory that must be from before the year 2000, so I'm very unsure of the details, of reading what I think was a mythology book from a country with less famous mythology, maybe from the Middle East or South Asia. There was a story in the book that ended with two deities playing a game for the rest of time. I think it was a board game in which one controlled white pieces, and wherever the white pieces go on the board mapping, a star appears in the sky.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think it might make sense if they were playing othello, if not for historical inaccuracy (this also slightly makes me doubt it wasn't just modern fiction). I got the impression they were playing checkers, but I may have just seen it that way because I was a child and didn't know what they were really playing and never played othello. I thought the opponent in the game had black pieces, but it's possible they had white pieces too or just had to remove the white pieces from the board.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There were illustrations in the book, which I don't vividly remember, and I think the one for that story depicted the dieties in a style that looked like ancient egyptian, as two thin men in the starry sky sitting at the board. I think there was another illustration for another story, depicting a flower like a lotus in the ocean (this is not rare imagery so I have doubts about remembering this right) for the first story in the book which was a creation myth in which the world was covered in ocean, and a flower appeared, and a woman came out of it, or there was no flower.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is this story? Where is it from?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3980" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="845" RevisionGUID="7193820e-2346-49f4-9764-bba0d91eeaa8" CreationDate="2015-05-24T23:02:39.577" UserId="351" Text="Where did this story about stars being part of a board game come from?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3981" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="845" RevisionGUID="7193820e-2346-49f4-9764-bba0d91eeaa8" CreationDate="2015-05-24T23:02:39.577" UserId="351" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3982" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="846" RevisionGUID="e4485ad7-a0bb-4761-94d6-b52f76063fee" CreationDate="2015-05-25T00:31:39.440" UserId="183" Text="I think it might be [Game of the Gods](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_of_the_Gods), from Norse mythology. It is described in [The Poetic Edda](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe03.htm), in stanza 8:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 8. In their dwellings at peace | they played at tables,  &#xD;&#xA; Of gold no lack | did the gods then know,--  &#xD;&#xA; Till thither came | up giant-maids three,  &#xD;&#xA; Huge of might, | out of Jotunheim.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a note below (emphasis mine):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Tables: the exact nature of this game, and whether it more closely resembled chess or checkers, has been made the subject of a 400-page treatise, Willard Fiske's &quot;Chess in Iceland.&quot;** Giant-maids: perhaps the three great Norns, corresponding to the three fates; cf. stanza 20, and note. Possibly, however, something has been lost after this stanza, and the missing passage, replaced by the catalogue of the dwarfs (stanzas 9-16), may have explained the &quot;giant-maids&quot; otherwise than as Norns. In Vafthruthnismol, 49, the Norms (this time &quot;three throngs&quot; in stead of simply &quot;three&quot;) are spoken of as giant-maidens; [fp. 6] Fafnismol, 13, indicates the existence of many lesser Norns, belonging to various races. Jotunheim: the world of the giants.]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedias claims that it is a variant of [Tafl](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tafl_games), which has black and white pieces, like you said.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Stanza 57 describes the Earth going into the sea - similar to what you mentioned:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 57. The sun turns black, | earth sinks in the sea,  &#xD;&#xA; The hot stars down | from heaven are whirled;  &#xD;&#xA; Fierce grows the steam | and the life-feeding flame,  &#xD;&#xA; Till fire leaps high | about heaven itself.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I can find no mention of a flower, in either the Poetic Edda or [The Prose Edda](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/index.htm). Stars are also not mentioned, unfortunately." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3983" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="832" RevisionGUID="7b87ed4d-31e3-4ace-88f9-81d8667a3310" CreationDate="2015-05-25T06:40:10.537" UserId="57" Comment="added 15 characters in body" Text="The strongest candidate for a god of writing would be [Hermes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes), the god of - amongst other things - language: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Also the Guide, the Slayer of Argus, contrived within her lies and crafty words and a deceitful nature at the will of loud thundering Zeus, and the Herald of the gods put speech in her. And he called this woman Pandora, because all they who dwelt on Olympus gave each a gift, a plague to men who eat bread.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hesiod, Works and Days, lines 75-80](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0020.tlg002.perseus-eng1:59-82)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Plato elaborates on Hermes' association with language, in Cratylus: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Hermogenes**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; I will do so, but first one more god. I want to ask you about Hermes, since Cratylus says I am not Hermogenes (son of Hermes). Let us investigate the name of Hermes, to find out whether there is anything in what he says.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Socrates**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Well then, this name “Hermes” seems to me to have to do with speech; he is an interpreter (ἡρμηνεύς) and a messenger, is wily and deceptive in speech, and is oratorical. All this activity is concerned with the power of speech. Now, as I said before, εἴρειν denotes the use of speech; moreover, Homer often uses the word ἐμήσατο, which means “contrive.” From these two words, then, the lawgiver imposes upon us the name of this god who contrived speech and the use of speech—εἴρειν means “speak” and tells us: “Ye human beings, he who contrived speech (εἴρειν ἐμήσατο) ought to be called Eiremes by you.” We, however, have beautified the name, as we imagine, and call him Hermes. Iris also seems to have got her name from εἴρειν, because she is a messenger.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source [Plato, Cratylus, p.408](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0059.tlg005.perseus-eng1:408)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hermes was the messenger of the gods, and naturally writing would be essential to him. He isn't however credited with inventing writing, at least not until Roman times: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [143] CXLIII. PHORONEUS&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Inachus, son of Oceanus, begat Phoroneus by his sister Argia, and he is said to have been the first of mortals to rule. Men for many centuries before lived without town or laws, speaking one tongue under the rule of Jove. But after Mercury had explained the languages of men (when he is called ermeneutes, “interpreter,” for Mercury in Greek is called Hermes; he too, divided the nations), then discord arose among mortals, which was not pleasing to Jove. And so he gave over the first rule to Phoroneus, because hew as first to make offerings to Juno.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [277] CCLXXVII. FIRST INVENTORS&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Parcae, Clotho, Lachesis, and Atropos invented seven Greek letters - A B H T I Y.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Others say that Mercury invented them from the flight of cranes, which, when they fly, form letters.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Palamedes, too, son of Nauplius, invented eleven letters; Simonides, too, invented four letters – Ó E Z PH; Epicharmus of Sicily, two - P and PS.    &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Greek letters Mercury is said to have brought to Egypt, and from Egypt Cadmus took them to Greece. Cadmus in exile from Arcadia, took them to Italy, and his mother Carmenta changed them to Latin to the number of 15.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollo on the lyre added the rest.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Myths of Hyginus, translated and edited by Mary Grant](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusFabulae1.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyginus belief that Hermes brought the Greek letters from Egypt is interesting because Hermes would some times be identified with [Thoth](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoth), who the Egyptians did credit with inventing writing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, the Greeks probably didn't think of writing as a product of divine inspiration; in fact, they were aware their alphabet derived from the Phoenician one: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These Phoenicians who came with [Cadmus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadmus) and of whom the Gephyraeans were a part brought with them to Hellas, among many other kinds of learning, the alphabet, which had been unknown before this, I think, to the Greeks. As time went on the sound and the form of the letters were changed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Herodotus, The Histories, Book 5, chapter 58, section 1](http://data.perseus.org/citations/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0016.tlg001.perseus-eng1:5.58.1)&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3984" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="847" RevisionGUID="311b01a3-cfbc-4a8e-b638-e091fec408c5" CreationDate="2015-05-25T07:48:26.527" UserId="57" Text="Odysseus knew he wasn't a favourite amongst the suitors, and had anticipated that Helen would pick Menelaus, if given the choice: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And from Ithaca the sacred might of Odysseus, Laertes son, who knew many-fashioned wiles, sought her to wife. He never sent gifts for the sake of the neat-ankled maid, for he knew in his heart that golden-haired Menelaus would win, since he was greatest of the Achaeans in possessions and was ever sending messages to horse-taming Castor and prize-winning Polydeuces.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hesiod, Catalogue of Women](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HesiodCatalogues.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not wanting to leave Sparta empty handed, Odysseus devised the Oath which allowed Helen to choose her favourite, and him to marry Penelope. At this point in time, the Oath was a pretty smart plan; we can't really blame Odysseus for failing to predict that a decade later Paris would cross paths with Helen. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3985" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="847" RevisionGUID="c0bc2f9a-987d-475c-a1e7-49f5e0ae6c78" CreationDate="2015-05-25T07:55:08.067" UserId="57" Comment="added 125 characters in body" Text="Odysseus knew he wasn't a favourite amongst the suitors, and had anticipated that Helen would pick Menelaus, if given the choice: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And from Ithaca the sacred might of Odysseus, Laertes son, who knew many-fashioned wiles, sought her to wife. He never sent gifts for the sake of the neat-ankled maid, for he knew in his heart that golden-haired Menelaus would win, since he was greatest of the Achaeans in possessions and was ever sending messages to horse-taming Castor and prize-winning Polydeuces.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hesiod, Catalogue of Women](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HesiodCatalogues.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not wanting to leave Sparta empty handed, Odysseus devised the Oath which allowed Helen to choose her favourite, and him to marry Penelope. At this point in time, the Oath was a pretty smart plan; all major players got what they wanted, without conflict. Of course the plan wasn't foolproof and it did backfire eventually, but we can't really blame Odysseus for failing to predict Paris would cross paths with Helen a decade later. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3986" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="847" RevisionGUID="f3b4b2e6-17e1-4654-9c58-aa513fa54fca" CreationDate="2015-05-25T08:08:50.940" UserId="57" Comment="added 41 characters in body" Text="Odysseus was interested in marrying Helen, but he knew he wasn't a favourite amongst the suitors, and had anticipated that Helen would pick Menelaus, if given the choice: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And from Ithaca the sacred might of Odysseus, Laertes son, who knew many-fashioned wiles, sought her to wife. He never sent gifts for the sake of the neat-ankled maid, for he knew in his heart that golden-haired Menelaus would win, since he was greatest of the Achaeans in possessions and was ever sending messages to horse-taming Castor and prize-winning Polydeuces.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hesiod, Catalogue of Women](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HesiodCatalogues.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not wanting to leave Sparta empty handed, Odysseus devised the Oath which allowed Helen to choose her favourite, and him to marry Penelope. At this point in time, the Oath was a pretty smart plan; all major players got what they wanted, without conflict. Of course the plan wasn't foolproof and it did backfire eventually, but we can't really blame Odysseus for failing to predict Paris would cross paths with Helen a decade later. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3987" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="847" RevisionGUID="08ff0dca-822c-4ac5-9dbf-cc0dcafed341" CreationDate="2015-05-25T09:32:41.503" UserId="57" Comment="added 743 characters in body" Text="Odysseus was interested in marrying Helen, but he knew he wasn't a favourite amongst the suitors, and had anticipated that Helen would pick Menelaus, if given the choice: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And from Ithaca the sacred might of Odysseus, Laertes son, who knew many-fashioned wiles, sought her to wife. He never sent gifts for the sake of the neat-ankled maid, for he knew in his heart that golden-haired Menelaus would win, since he was greatest of the Achaeans in possessions and was ever sending messages to horse-taming Castor and prize-winning Polydeuces.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hesiod, Catalogue of Women](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HesiodCatalogues.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not wanting to leave Sparta empty handed, Odysseus devised the Oath which allowed Helen to choose her favourite, and him to marry Penelope. At this point in time, the Oath was a pretty smart plan; all major players got what they wanted, without conflict. Of course the plan wasn't foolproof and it did backfire eventually, but we can't really blame Odysseus for failing to predict Paris would cross paths with Helen a decade later. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lastly, I think it's interesting to note that the Oath's actual power is questionable: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And to me it seemeth that Agamemnon got together that fleet, not so much for that he had with him the suitors of Helen bound thereto by oath to Tindareus as for this, that he exceeded the rest in power.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Thucydides, History of the Peloponnesian War, Book 1, chapter 9](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0003.tlg001.perseus-eng1:1.9)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odysseus probably wouldn't have a choice, even if he wasn't bound by the Oath. It wasn't only the suitors that followed Agamemnon after all, the prime example of a non suitor that made it to Troy being [Achilles](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles). &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3988" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="848" RevisionGUID="b1ff9e02-a1f1-4af3-8777-e12bf5eedff1" CreationDate="2015-05-25T11:07:24.957" UserId="111" Text="&lt;sub&gt;Little disclaimer: I haven't been able to find the myth/legend in question but hopefully my answer will help narrowing it down.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The game you're describing in your question looks a lot like the game of go (also known as *weiqi* in China, *baduk* in Korea and *igo* in Japan; because it arrived only in Europe/USA during the 20th century, early translations in english would call it *chess* or *checkers*). It is a [very old game](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Go): although the first occurrence of this game in chinese literature date from the 4th century BC, legends date its origins in the 2nd millenium BC. Consequently, due to its age, it is a game that one encounter frequently in eastern Asia legends.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Links between the game and astrology, in popular culture, are legions, due to the inherent look of a game in progress. In fact, in modern japanese, the central point of the board is referred to as the *[tengen](http://senseis.xmp.net/?Tengen)* (litt. origin of Heaven) and the other marked intersections as *[hoshi](http://senseis.xmp.net/?Hoshi)* (litt. stars).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Chinese historian Ban Gu (32-92 AD) in *Yi Zhi* (Essence of Go) wrote about the game:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The board must be square, for it represents the Earth laws. The lines must be straight for they embody the spirit of pure virtue. The pieces are white and black, and so are divided into the Yin and the Yang. Paired and set out in order, they represent the patterns of the Heavens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Additionally, gods are often pictured playing the game, in Chinese and Japanese tradition: see piece of arts like [this sculpture of Hotei, god of Wealth, playing against Jurojin, god of longevity](http://www.laurabordignon.co.uk/japanese-art/d/japanese-ivory-okimono-of-hotei-god-of-wealth-playing-the-game-g%C3%85%C2%8D-with-jurojin-god-of-longevity/80735) or the Yuan Dynasty painting representing the [Three Stars Playing Weiqi](http://www.lacma.org/sites/default/files/Chinese_Paintings_LACMA_Checklist_PartTwo.pdf).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And to finish, on the idea of an ever lasting game, there is this famous (among go player) legend that approaches this idea: the *Ranka* story. Here is an account of it from [Asian popular culture: new, hybrid, and alternate media](https://books.google.de/books?id=OixuQqUWHbIC):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ... such as the famous Axe Story which told of a lumberjack who, wandering the woods of Shi Bao mountain in Zhejiang Province, saw two immortals playing Weiqi. He stopped to watch them play, and they shared their nectar of the gods with him. After some time had passed, one of the immortals looked up and exclaimed, &quot;What? You are still here? Shouldn't you be going home now?&quot; and pointed to the lumberjack'axe, the wooden handle of which had rotten away with age. When the lumberjack returned home, he discovered that so much time had gone by in his absence, that everyone he knew had long since perished.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is therefore possible that the story you read was a mishmash of legends about the game of go.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3989" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="848" RevisionGUID="1eab3cb4-4ca7-4a86-950b-af3a8b3235aa" CreationDate="2015-05-25T11:18:33.727" UserId="111" Comment="added 35 characters in body" Text="&lt;sub&gt;Little disclaimer: I haven't been able to find the myth/legend in question but hopefully my answer will help narrowing it down.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The game you're describing in your question looks a lot like the game of go (also known as *weiqi* in China, *baduk* in Korea and *igo* in Japan; because it arrived only in Europe/USA during the 20th century, early translations in english would call it *chess* or *checkers*). It is a [very old game](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Go): although the first occurrence of this game in chinese literature date from the 4th century BC, legends date its origins in the 2nd millenium BC. Consequently, due to its age, it is a game that one encounter frequently in eastern Asia legends.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Links between the game and astrology/astronomy are legions, due to the inherent look of a game in progress. In fact, in modern japanese, the central point of the board is referred to as the *[tengen](http://senseis.xmp.net/?Tengen)* (litt. origin of Heaven) and the other marked intersections as *[hoshi](http://senseis.xmp.net/?Hoshi)* (litt. stars).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Chinese historian Ban Gu (32-92 AD) in *Yi Zhi* (Essence of Go) wrote about the game:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The board must be square, for it represents the Earth laws. The lines must be straight for they embody the spirit of pure virtue. The pieces are white and black, and so are divided into the Yin and the Yang. Paired and set out in order, they represent the patterns of the Heavens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Additionally, gods are often pictured playing the game, in Chinese and Japanese tradition: see piece of arts like [this sculpture of Hotei, god of Wealth, playing against Jurojin, god of longevity](http://www.laurabordignon.co.uk/japanese-art/d/japanese-ivory-okimono-of-hotei-god-of-wealth-playing-the-game-g%C3%85%C2%8D-with-jurojin-god-of-longevity/80735) or the Yuan Dynasty painting representing the [Three Stars Playing Weiqi](http://www.lacma.org/sites/default/files/Chinese_Paintings_LACMA_Checklist_PartTwo.pdf), just to give a couple of examples.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And to finish, on the idea of an ever lasting game, there is this famous (among go player) legend that approaches this idea: the *Ranka* story. Here is an account of it from [Asian popular culture: new, hybrid, and alternate media](https://books.google.de/books?id=OixuQqUWHbIC):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ... such as the famous Axe Story which told of a lumberjack who, wandering the woods of Shi Bao mountain in Zhejiang Province, saw two immortals playing Weiqi. He stopped to watch them play, and they shared their nectar of the gods with him. After some time had passed, one of the immortals looked up and exclaimed, &quot;What? You are still here? Shouldn't you be going home now?&quot; and pointed to the lumberjack'axe, the wooden handle of which had rotten away with age. When the lumberjack returned home, he discovered that so much time had gone by in his absence, that everyone he knew had long since perished.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is therefore possible that the story you read was a mishmash of legends about the game of go.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3990" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="829" RevisionGUID="8a4cd02a-1f32-4a5b-b41c-719ec7faa68a" CreationDate="2015-05-25T16:00:53.767" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="deleted 48 characters in body" Text="King Kylydd did the right thing in concealing his son from his new wife, because once she sees Kilhwch (Culhwch), she places a curse on him:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; His stepmother said unto him, &quot;It were well for thee to have a wife,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and I have a daughter who is sought of every man of renown in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; world.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;I am not yet of an age to wed,&quot; answered the youth. `Then she said unto him, &quot;I declare to thee, that it is thy destiny not to be suited with a wife until thou obtain Olwen, the daughter of Yspaddaden Penkawr.`&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is easy to miss, because the characters act like it's no big deal: Kilhwch is told that it &quot;will be easy for thee&quot; to marry Olwen. However, keep in mind the following three things:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. It wasn't easy: the characters have to achieve several supposedly impossible magical tasks in order for Kilhwch to be able to marry Olwen.&#xD;&#xA;2. These characters are accustomed to magic (the relationship between the real world and the magical world is a common theme in the Mabinogion).&#xD;&#xA;3. A central theme in the story is the control of reproductive power. This story features a &quot;jealous stepmother&quot; motif; to quote from [Will Parker's Mabinogion.info][1] (which quotes Stephen Knight's Culhwch analysis):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;   &gt; The threat represented in the essential plot of the story us the failure of the family to reproduce itself. The stepmother’s curse means Culhwch will either go childless or be killed by the giant … the central fear [is] of a sterile generation and of reproductive power lying in enemy hands, whether giants or stepmothers. (Arthurian Literature and Society Macmillan Press, 1963 pp 16-18)&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;    The story is, in a way, a precursor to stories like Cinderella: the stepmother wants to control the father, so she controls the father's children with his first wife.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't know why the crone first concealed Kilhwch (Culhwch) from the stepmother, and then revealed Kilhwch to her. That could be explained as an inconsistency in the text, or as the stepmother persuading the crone with her emotion by her &quot;lament on account of that.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(The stepmother said &quot;woe is me, that I should have come to one who is childless!&quot; when she heard King Kilydd had no children. This is another example of the importance of fertility: she wants to be able to have children and control the King.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.mabinogion.info/culhwch.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="3991" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="829" RevisionGUID="8abac183-65f5-45c7-90b1-7abec75f45d6" CreationDate="2015-05-25T16:08:26.920" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="bold is better" Text="King Kylydd did the right thing in concealing his son from his new wife, because once she sees Kilhwch (Culhwch), she places a curse on him:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; His stepmother said unto him, &quot;It were well for thee to have a wife,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and I have a daughter who is sought of every man of renown in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; world.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;I am not yet of an age to wed,&quot; answered the youth. **Then she said unto him, &quot;I declare to thee, that it is thy destiny not to be suited with a wife until thou obtain Olwen, the daughter of Yspaddaden Penkawr.**&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is easy to miss, because the characters act like it's no big deal: Kilhwch is told that it &quot;will be easy for thee&quot; to marry Olwen. However, keep in mind the following three things:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. It wasn't easy: the characters have to achieve several supposedly impossible magical tasks in order for Kilhwch to be able to marry Olwen.&#xD;&#xA;2. These characters are accustomed to magic (the relationship between the real world and the magical world is a common theme in the Mabinogion).&#xD;&#xA;3. A central theme in the story is the control of reproductive power. This story features a &quot;jealous stepmother&quot; motif; to quote from [Will Parker's Mabinogion.info][1] (which quotes Stephen Knight's Culhwch analysis):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;   &gt; The threat represented in the essential plot of the story us the failure of the family to reproduce itself. The stepmother’s curse means Culhwch will either go childless or be killed by the giant … the central fear [is] of a sterile generation and of reproductive power lying in enemy hands, whether giants or stepmothers. (Arthurian Literature and Society Macmillan Press, 1963 pp 16-18)&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;    The story is, in a way, a precursor to stories like Cinderella: the stepmother wants to control the father, so she controls the father's children with his first wife.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't know why the crone first concealed Kilhwch (Culhwch) from the stepmother, and then revealed Kilhwch to her. That could be explained as an inconsistency in the text, or as the stepmother persuading the crone with her emotion by her &quot;lament on account of that.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(The stepmother said &quot;woe is me, that I should have come to one who is childless!&quot; when she heard King Kilydd had no children. This is another example of the importance of fertility: she wants to be able to have children and control the King.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.mabinogion.info/culhwch.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4005" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="852" RevisionGUID="42d9d957-419a-4cd4-9cd8-d66278bbec41" CreationDate="2015-05-25T19:54:28.577" UserId="355" Text="Is there a specific reason the Minotaur was kept in a labyrinth instead of a normal jail?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If not mentioned in the original writings, are there any speculations as to why go through the trouble of making a labyrinth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4006" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="852" RevisionGUID="42d9d957-419a-4cd4-9cd8-d66278bbec41" CreationDate="2015-05-25T19:54:28.577" UserId="355" Text="Why was the Minotaur enclosed in a labyrinth and not in jail of some sort?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4007" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="852" RevisionGUID="42d9d957-419a-4cd4-9cd8-d66278bbec41" CreationDate="2015-05-25T19:54:28.577" UserId="355" Text="|greek|labyrinth|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4008" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="853" RevisionGUID="7b96f3b1-f9b9-40c2-ac11-016cee694648" CreationDate="2015-05-25T20:06:47.803" UserId="188" Text="Are there any other gods that permanently lost an eye, other than Odin?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I can't find any other gods that lost an eye... other than Horus, and it wasn't permanent 'cause he got a replacement...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Looked here already:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Disabled Deities](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DisabledDeity)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Eyepatch of Power](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EyepatchOfPower)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[EyeScream - Mythology](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/EyeScream/Mythology)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4009" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="853" RevisionGUID="7b96f3b1-f9b9-40c2-ac11-016cee694648" CreationDate="2015-05-25T20:06:47.803" UserId="188" Text="Are there any other gods that permenantly lost an eye, other than Odin?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4010" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="853" RevisionGUID="7b96f3b1-f9b9-40c2-ac11-016cee694648" CreationDate="2015-05-25T20:06:47.803" UserId="188" Text="|norse|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4012" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="854" RevisionGUID="9623aa08-a30d-4ed5-bf68-d99fa81d1574" CreationDate="2015-05-25T21:14:15.623" UserId="87" Text="I can't find any version of the myth that directly addresses this question, but my best guess is that **the Labyrinth is designed to be so baffling and misleading that anyone in it would never find the way out**, even if they could break through the walls (which I'm guessing the Minotaur could, and would do in a regular prison). As we all know, Theseus needed magic string to find his way back out, rather than a map or a compass or some similarly ordinary tool.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm basing that theory largely on [this description of the labyrinth in Ovid's Metamorphoses](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Metamorphoses_(tr._Garth,_Dryden,_et_al.)/Book_VIII#The_Labyrinth):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Great Daedalus of Athens was the man  &#xD;&#xA;That made the draught, and form'd the wondrous plan;  &#xD;&#xA;Where rooms within themselves encircled lye,  &#xD;&#xA;With various windings, to deceive the eye.  &#xD;&#xA;As soft Maeander's wanton current plays,  &#xD;&#xA;When thro' the Phrygian fields it loosely strays;  &#xD;&#xA;Backward and forward rouls the dimpl'd tide,  &#xD;&#xA;Seeming, at once, two different ways to glide:  &#xD;&#xA;While circling streams their former banks survey,  &#xD;&#xA;And waters past succeeding waters see:  &#xD;&#xA;Now floating to the sea with downward course,  &#xD;&#xA;Now pointing upward to its ancient source,  &#xD;&#xA;Such was the work, so intricate the place,  &#xD;&#xA;That scarce the workman all its turns cou'd trace;  &#xD;&#xA;And Daedalus was puzzled how to find  &#xD;&#xA;The secret ways of what himself design'd.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4013" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="854" RevisionGUID="972690ba-08bf-4940-a185-85d2f297e093" CreationDate="2015-05-25T21:32:25.233" UserId="87" Comment="added 851 characters in body" Text="I can't find any version of the myth that directly addresses this question, but the [description of the labyrinth in Ovid's Metamorphoses](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Metamorphoses_(tr._Garth,_Dryden,_et_al.)/Book_VIII#The_Labyrinth) leads me to suggest at least two educated guesses.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1) It's meant to prevent anyone from ever seeing the Minotaur, because Minos is that ashamed of it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mean-while the monster of a human-beast,  &#xD;&#xA;His family's reproach, and stain, increas'd.  &#xD;&#xA;His double kind the rumour swiftly spread,  &#xD;&#xA;And evidenc'd the mother's beastly deed.  &#xD;&#xA;When Minos, willing to conceal the shame  &#xD;&#xA;That sprung from the reports of tatling Fame,  &#xD;&#xA;**Resolves a dark inclosure to provide,**  &#xD;&#xA;**And, far from sight, the two-form'd creature hide.**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A regular prison would presumably still involve guards checking that the Minotaur is in his cell, while the labyrinth doesn't seem to require any guards.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2) The Labyrinth is designed to be so baffling and misleading that anyone in it would never find the way out.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Great Daedalus of Athens was the man  &#xD;&#xA;That made the draught, and form'd the wondrous plan;  &#xD;&#xA;Where rooms within themselves encircled lye,  &#xD;&#xA;With various windings, to deceive the eye.  &#xD;&#xA;As soft Maeander's wanton current plays,  &#xD;&#xA;When thro' the Phrygian fields it loosely strays;  &#xD;&#xA;Backward and forward rouls the dimpl'd tide,  &#xD;&#xA;Seeming, at once, two different ways to glide:  &#xD;&#xA;While circling streams their former banks survey,  &#xD;&#xA;And waters past succeeding waters see:  &#xD;&#xA;Now floating to the sea with downward course,  &#xD;&#xA;Now pointing upward to its ancient source,  &#xD;&#xA;**Such was the work, so intricate the place,**  &#xD;&#xA;**That scarce the workman all its turns cou'd trace;**  &#xD;&#xA;**And Daedalus was puzzled how to find**  &#xD;&#xA;**The secret ways of what himself design'd.**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Presumably the Minotaur can break through the walls of a regular prison cell, and possibly the labyrinth too (it's never described as having super-strong walls as far as I can tell). Ovid's description implies that even Daedalus would have trouble finding the way out, and Theseus obviously needed magic string to to do it, so it's likely that even if the Minotaur could tear down several walls that wouldn't be enough to stop him from getting lost." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4014" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="855" RevisionGUID="b2c20545-4db3-468b-922d-7ca9a358f572" CreationDate="2015-05-25T21:56:12.073" UserId="357" Text="The well-known religions of the developed world teach about an all-powerful, transcendental God, existing in a state far beyond our understanding of space and time, who will come at the end of the world but until then doesn't interfere too much or too visibly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, in Greek mythology the deities were more human, actually more like superpowered humans with human ambitions, and they personally walked the Earth, took part in human wars, and personally visited the temples dedicated to them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What was the explanation for the ancient Greeks, for example in the time between Homer and Herodotus, why they don't see any giants, immortals, centaurs, fauns etc. running around, why doesn't Dionysus show up for a big party, and why doesn't anyone since many generations remember seeing Artemis hunting in the nearby forests. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm not interested in speculation, but in real sources. Was there any indication in the myths or any written records by philosophers or historians why the supernatural creatures are missing? In that time they still had temples where they had active services for the gods which, according to the myths, often, and visibly, physically visited their temples and human settlements. I have a rough general knowledge about ancient Greek mythology/history, but I don't remember having seen any such explanation." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4015" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="855" RevisionGUID="b2c20545-4db3-468b-922d-7ca9a358f572" CreationDate="2015-05-25T21:56:12.073" UserId="357" Text="What was the explanation in Greek mythology for the absence of their deities?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4016" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="855" RevisionGUID="b2c20545-4db3-468b-922d-7ca9a358f572" CreationDate="2015-05-25T21:56:12.073" UserId="357" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4018" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="856" RevisionGUID="23927f72-98cd-4321-a5d3-e1a132c78517" CreationDate="2015-05-26T03:52:30.143" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="You are in ancient Greece. Everyone is gathered around the campfire (or theatre, or temple, or wherever people tell stories). A renowned storyteller is telling a story about Artemis hunting in the local forest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Suddenly, vsz gets up and asks:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; why [hasn't] anyone since many generations remember seeing Artemis hunting in the nearby forests?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What do you think the storyteller would say? Maybe he will ignore the question, maybe he will say that you are bad at looking for things in the forest, [maybe he will go Rick Riordan and invent something similar to the mist][1] (which was based on something said in the Iliad, where a god prevented a mortal from seeing something), maybe he will will say [&quot;because it's death to look on a god/goddess in their true form&quot;][2], or maybe he will say [&quot;because Artemis kills \[male\] mortals who spy on her&quot;][3]. There are many &quot;logical&quot; explanations storytellers can make. The storyteller may also think you are an atheist ([there were atheists in Greece at the time][4]). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(That paragraph should have answered your question.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's what I think: **it doesn't matter**. As you can tell from the variety of &quot;excuses&quot;, coming up with a consistent explanation for why people don't see magic **is not a priority of religions or storytellers**. People who understand religions or literature (i.e. not the internet) know that *the supernatural is a metaphor*, and is not supposed to make rational or scientific sense. It's only recently that we've seen authors (and people on the internet) trying to reconcile irrational metaphors with rational science. In my opinion, it's a complete waste of time and won't lead to a better understanding of the story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The well-known religions of the developed world...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm sure the non-Abrahamic religions will be upset for not being included in the &quot;developed world&quot;, but OK.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...teach about an all-powerful, transcendental God, existing in a state far beyond our understanding of space and time, who will come at the end of the world but until then doesn't interfere too much or too visibly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;God did &quot;interfere&quot; with the world several times, both in the new testament and the old, and a similar question to this one is *how do Christians explain how God created the world in seven days when the majority of scientific evidence says that's not possible?*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which gets back to my original point: asking for religions (and literature in general) to justify themselves scientifically is neither the point of religion nor the best way to understand religion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I will accept my downvotes stoically. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://camphalfblood.wikia.com/wiki/Mist&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semele#Seduction_by_Zeus_and_birth_of_Dionysus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actaeon&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismhistory/a/AncientGreeceSkepticism.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4019" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="856" RevisionGUID="42f452af-d339-401c-a5b9-58146ede3be6" CreationDate="2015-05-26T07:14:57.280" UserId="111" Comment="i think calling a user by name in this context is unnecessary and needlessly aggressive. " Text="You are in ancient Greece. Everyone is gathered around the campfire (or theatre, or temple, or wherever people tell stories). A renowned storyteller is telling a story about Artemis hunting in the local forest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Suddenly, someone gets up and asks:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; why [hasn't] anyone since many generations remember seeing Artemis hunting in the nearby forests?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What do you think the storyteller would say? Maybe he will ignore the question, maybe he will say that you are bad at looking for things in the forest, [maybe he will go Rick Riordan and invent something similar to the mist][1] (which was based on something said in the Iliad, where a god prevented a mortal from seeing something), maybe he will will say [&quot;because it's death to look on a god/goddess in their true form&quot;][2], or maybe he will say [&quot;because Artemis kills \[male\] mortals who spy on her&quot;][3]. There are many &quot;logical&quot; explanations storytellers can make. The storyteller may also think you are an atheist ([there were atheists in Greece at the time][4]). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(That paragraph should have answered your question.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's what I think: **it doesn't matter**. As you can tell from the variety of &quot;excuses&quot;, coming up with a consistent explanation for why people don't see magic **is not a priority of religions or storytellers**. People who understand religions or literature (i.e. not the internet) know that *the supernatural is a metaphor*, and is not supposed to make rational or scientific sense. It's only recently that we've seen authors (and people on the internet) trying to reconcile irrational metaphors with rational science. In my opinion, it's a complete waste of time and won't lead to a better understanding of the story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The well-known religions of the developed world...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm sure the non-Abrahamic religions will be upset for not being included in the &quot;developed world&quot;, but OK.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...teach about an all-powerful, transcendental God, existing in a state far beyond our understanding of space and time, who will come at the end of the world but until then doesn't interfere too much or too visibly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;God did &quot;interfere&quot; with the world several times, both in the new testament and the old, and a similar question to this one is *how do Christians explain how God created the world in seven days when the majority of scientific evidence says that's not possible?*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which gets back to my original point: asking for religions (and literature in general) to justify themselves scientifically is neither the point of religion nor the best way to understand religion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I will accept my downvotes stoically. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://camphalfblood.wikia.com/wiki/Mist&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semele#Seduction_by_Zeus_and_birth_of_Dionysus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actaeon&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismhistory/a/AncientGreeceSkepticism.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4020" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="856" RevisionGUID="42f452af-d339-401c-a5b9-58146ede3be6" CreationDate="2015-05-26T07:14:57.280" Comment="Proposed by 111 approved by 57 edit id of 203" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4021" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="856" RevisionGUID="9beddc5b-7f6a-4c7e-a192-ecf5352d43f7" CreationDate="2015-05-26T14:33:06.663" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 237 characters in body" Text="You are in ancient Greece. Everyone is gathered around the campfire (or theatre, or temple, or wherever people tell stories). A renowned storyteller is telling a story about Artemis hunting in the local forest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Suddenly, someone gets up and asks:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; why [hasn't] anyone since many generations remember seeing Artemis hunting in the nearby forests?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What do you think the storyteller would say? Maybe he will ignore the question, maybe he will say that you are bad at looking for things in the forest, [maybe he will go Rick Riordan and invent something similar to the mist][1] (which was based on something said in the Iliad, where a god prevented a mortal from seeing something), maybe he will will say [&quot;because it's death to look on a god/goddess in their true form&quot;][2], or maybe he will say [&quot;because Artemis kills \[male\] mortals who spy on her&quot;][3]. There are many &quot;logical&quot; explanations storytellers can make. The storyteller may also think you are an atheist ([there were atheists in Greece at the time][4]). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(That paragraph should have answered your question.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's what I think: **it doesn't matter**. As you can tell from the variety of &quot;excuses&quot;, coming up with a consistent explanation for why people don't see magic **is not a priority of religions or storytellers**. People who understand religions or literature (i.e. not the internet) know that *the supernatural is a metaphor*, and is not supposed to make rational or scientific sense. It's only recently that we've seen [authors][5] (and people on the internet) trying to reconcile irrational metaphors with rational science. In my opinion, it's a complete waste of time and won't lead to a better understanding of the story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The well-known religions of the developed world...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are you referring to Abrahamic religions, or just Christianity and Judaism (not Islam)? Either way, you have an extremely small sample size: most &quot;pagan&quot;/&quot;non-modern&quot; religions that I can think of are based around the idea of gods/spirits interacting with the real world on a regular basis. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...teach about an all-powerful, transcendental God, existing in a state far beyond our understanding of space and time, who will come at the end of the world but until then doesn't interfere too much or too visibly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;God did &quot;interfere&quot; with the world several times, both in the new testament and the old, and a similar question to this one is *how do Christians explain how God created the world in seven days when the majority of scientific evidence says that's not possible?*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which gets back to my original point: asking for religions (and literature in general) to justify themselves scientifically is neither the point of religion nor the best way to understand religion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I will accept my downvotes stoically. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://camphalfblood.wikia.com/wiki/Mist&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semele#Seduction_by_Zeus_and_birth_of_Dionysus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actaeon&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismhistory/a/AncientGreeceSkepticism.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4022" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="855" RevisionGUID="55f609c4-5368-460f-8da4-10f09594698e" CreationDate="2015-05-26T15:02:27.503" UserId="357" Comment="added 620 characters in body" Text="The most well-known religions of the developed world teach about an all-powerful, transcendental God, existing in a state far beyond our understanding of space and time, who will come at the end of the world but until then doesn't interfere too much or too visibly, therefore the question of the missing physical appearances of God in current times either doesn't come up at all, or has a well-established canonical answer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, in Greek mythology the deities were more human, actually more like superpowered humans with human ambitions, and they personally walked the Earth, took part in human wars, and personally visited the temples dedicated to them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What was the explanation for the ancient Greeks, for example in the time between Homer and Herodotus, why they don't see any giants, immortals, centaurs, fauns etc. running around, why doesn't Dionysus show up for a big party, and why doesn't anyone since many generations remember seeing Artemis hunting in the nearby forests. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm sure if Herodotus had encountered anyone of the Greek pantheon or any of the mythical creatures in person (or if he heard enough claims of others having done so), he would have written about it, so it must have been an obvious fact even for his contemporaries that their mythological figures don't (or at least no longer) behave as they did in the myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm looking for an &quot;in-universe&quot; explanation, as I have a rough general knowledge about ancient Greek mythology/history, but I don't remember having seen any such explanation. Maybe there is one, and I just missed it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm not interested in speculation, but in real sources. Was there any indication in the myths or any written records by philosophers or historians why the supernatural creatures are missing? In that time they still had temples where they had active services for the gods which, according to the myths, often, and visibly, physically visited their temples and human settlements. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4023" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="857" RevisionGUID="baa61148-6fd7-4fa7-88c7-3f78081dd115" CreationDate="2015-05-26T15:23:20.750" UserId="151" Text="Another tack, extrapolated backwards from the innumerable churches and votive sites in the current Greek country side, where Mary and Nicolas and George sit in the church [templon][1] as a holy picture and are very much real for the devotees, from gold and silver offerings on the icons to great celebrations on the name day. Each site is really as a different deity, Mary gets an epithet of the site, and is specially celebrated. IMHO this is a continuation of the ancient greek religiosity. The temples turned into churches. (St Helias churches are on top of hills, for example, where the temples of Apollo-Helios were located, the association clear). Each house has a small iconostasis with a candle lit from the resurrection ceremony light once a year.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is the most popular prayer to God as Holy Spirit in current orthodox christianity:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Heavenly King][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Heavenly King , &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Paraclete ,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;the Spirit of truth ,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;who is ubiquitous and &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;permeates everything&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;the treasurer of goods&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and the giver of life,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;come and dwell in us&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;......&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the deity is present though only seen in the churches.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Extrapolating from the present religiosity to the ancient religiosity should not be a big step. The ancients had the statues, not icons, three dimensional representations of the gods, in full color, not the immaculate white of the underlying marble, but vivid color. The houses had the house altar. In a similar way with the present, their gods were with them in their everyday life, with the prayers and votive offerings,  the new dresses sewn for the name day, the processions. Their gods were interwoven with their life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One could say that they had captured ( like a three dimensional photo)their gods to keep them in their societies. From this last it is evident that they gave a spiritual immaterial format to their gods in general. Again not different than the way saints and divinity  are  still currently seen.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_church_architecture#Iconostasis&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.paidika.gr/index.php?option=com_content&amp;task=view&amp;id=692&amp;Itemid=83" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4024" PostHistoryTypeId="9" PostId="194" RevisionGUID="3b51e903-41c0-429b-b5c9-ecbb4851dcee" CreationDate="2015-05-26T16:43:21.723" UserId="129" Comment="Rollback to [ba3812c0-6b70-4d9d-af5e-cabce1bcc647]" Text="|norse|mythical-creatures|gods|giants|norse-mythology|" />
  <row Id="4027" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="858" RevisionGUID="ed6a0573-ed90-4513-aa6e-cd01466ee56a" CreationDate="2015-05-27T07:28:52.337" UserId="57" Text="In Islamic eschatology, [Masih ad-Dajjal][1] is a one eyed false messiah: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Allah's Apostle said. &quot;While I was sleeping, I saw myself (in a dream) performing Tawaf around the Ka'ba. Behold, I saw a reddish-white man with lank hair, and water was dropping from his head. I asked, &quot;Who is this?' They replied, 'The son of Mary.' Then I turned my face to see another man with a huge body, red complexion and curly hair and blind in one eye. His eye looked like a protruding out grape. They said (to me), He is Ad-Dajjal.&quot; The Prophet added, &quot;The man he resembled most is Ibn Qatan, a man from the tribe of Khuza'a. &quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 88: Afflictions and the End of the World, Volume 9, Number 242](http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/088-sbt.php#009.088.242)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;His missing eye appears to be significant, as it is what betrays his true nature: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Narrated Anas:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Prophet said, &quot;No prophet was sent but that he warned his followers against the one-eyed liar (Ad-Dajjal). Beware! He is blind in one eye, and your Lord is not so, and there will be written between his (Ad-Dajjal's) eyes (the word) Kafir (i.e., disbeliever).&quot; (This Hadith is also quoted by Abu Huraira and Ibn 'Abbas).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 88: Afflictions and the End of the World, Volume 9, Number 245](http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/088-sbt.php#009.088.245)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do we know how Masih ad-Dajjal ended up with such an obvious giveaway?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masih_ad-Dajjal" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4028" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="858" RevisionGUID="ed6a0573-ed90-4513-aa6e-cd01466ee56a" CreationDate="2015-05-27T07:28:52.337" UserId="57" Text="How did Masih ad-Dajjal lose his eye?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4029" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="858" RevisionGUID="ed6a0573-ed90-4513-aa6e-cd01466ee56a" CreationDate="2015-05-27T07:28:52.337" UserId="57" Text="|untagged|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4030" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="858" RevisionGUID="47c50556-1a3d-478c-9e00-39d15ab1867a" CreationDate="2015-05-27T08:38:15.790" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 8 characters in body" Text="In Islamic eschatology, [Masih ad-Dajjal][1] is a one eyed false messiah: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Allah's Apostle said. &quot;While I was sleeping, I saw myself (in a dream) performing Tawaf around the Ka'ba. Behold, I saw a reddish-white man with lank hair, and water was dropping from his head. I asked, &quot;Who is this?' They replied, 'The son of Mary.' Then I turned my face to see another man with a huge body, red complexion and curly hair and blind in one eye. His eye looked like a protruding out grape. They said (to me), He is Ad-Dajjal.&quot; The Prophet added, &quot;The man he resembled most is Ibn Qatan, a man from the tribe of Khuza'a. &quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 88: Afflictions and the End of the World, Volume 9, Number 242](http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/088-sbt.php#009.088.242)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;His missing eye appears to be significant, as it betrays his true nature: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Narrated Anas:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Prophet said, &quot;No prophet was sent but that he warned his followers against the one-eyed liar (Ad-Dajjal). Beware! He is blind in one eye, and your Lord is not so, and there will be written between his (Ad-Dajjal's) eyes (the word) Kafir (i.e., disbeliever).&quot; (This Hadith is also quoted by Abu Huraira and Ibn 'Abbas).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 88: Afflictions and the End of the World, Volume 9, Number 245](http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/088-sbt.php#009.088.245)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do we know how Masih ad-Dajjal ended up with such an obvious giveaway?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masih_ad-Dajjal" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4031" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="859" RevisionGUID="a74b3372-2e11-455f-8df2-39d93dd69ba5" CreationDate="2015-05-27T11:04:36.137" UserId="161" Text="I'm pretty convinced that the answer is: they were not absent (or, at least, Greeks did not consider them absent).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First clue, the infamous trick that Peisistratos did in order to gain popularity among Athenians: he found a tall, young, pretty lady, dressed her as Athena and put her on his chariot. They say he pretended he could not see her but, in the end, the result was that he *could* spread the rumour that Athena herself came to Athens to put he crown on the head of Athens's true ruler.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This story strongly suggests that Athenians of the age thought that it was possible, one day, as they were walking, to see a god or a goddess in front of them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are other stories as well, e.g. when in Cuma (Asia Minor) the people asked the oracle of Apollo about whether they should provide sanctuary to a rebel from Lydia named Paktyes, there was an intervention from Aristodikos after which &quot;the voice of the god was heard&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Second clue, I've read a few old folk stories of Greece, stories about fairies and spirits etc. which proved clearly enough that Greeks could actually *see* supernatural entities until the 1950's (or thought they saw). Some of these stories have a similarity with ancient greek mythology, but we are not discussing this right now. :)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One mention I found about an absent god, is in Lucianus's Timon (I'm not sure if this is the play) where the leading character cries out to Zeus &quot;...unless you're dead, as Cretans believe.&quot; (Though some believe that Cretans worshiped Zeus as a ressurecting god.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4032" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="194" RevisionGUID="2b5fec98-b63d-43aa-8ff3-189b2df93e9a" CreationDate="2015-05-27T11:55:32.817" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|mythical-creatures|gods|giants|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4033" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="860" RevisionGUID="13940279-a005-4e52-a338-a465c57123a1" CreationDate="2015-05-27T23:41:31.750" UserId="292" Text="Loki is the son of a giant (Farbauti) according to both Snorri and the 9th century poem [Haustlong][1]. Snorri tells us that Farbauti is a giant, but doesn't say what species (?) Laufey is. &#xD;&#xA;The fact that Loki's mother is mainly known as Laufey, which probably means &quot;leafy island&quot;, has led to speculation that she was a goddess, or at least not a giant. (Giantesses tend to have names indicating mountains, cold, stone, or else they're warlike, i.e. Skadi = Harm.) If Loki's mother is a goddess, then that would contradict the general refusal of the gods to let the giants marry/mate with goddesses, and thus would make him an anomaly in Norse myth. &#xD;&#xA;This view was first expressed by [John Lindow][2] in *Murder and Vengeance Among the Gods*, and others took it up. [Preben Meulengracht Sorensen][3] suggested that Loki and the saga hero Egil were misfits and this explained a lot about their interactions with others.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://freya.theladyofthelabyrinth.com/?page_id=79&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/2887098?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://opac.regesta-imperii.de/lang_en/anzeige.php?buchbeitrag=Starka%C3%B0r%2C%20Loki%20and%20Egil%20Skallagr%C3%ADmsson&amp;pk=355294" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4034" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="861" RevisionGUID="f836dcf3-6862-4c37-9c0e-efb10df25dd6" CreationDate="2015-05-28T00:22:51.097" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="I've been doing some research into Quetzalcoatl, and one of the surprising things about him is that Mormons think he is Christ (Mormons believe Christ visited America, and that the story of Quetzalcoatl is actually a corrupted version of the story of Christ).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Book of Mormon is a sacred, ancient American document recorded by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; writers as the events unfolded, starting more than two thousand years&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ago.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ancient American texts written by native Americans support this origin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ancient American literature contains references to a white, bearded&#xD;&#xA;&gt; god who descended out of the heavens. He is called by many names; one&#xD;&#xA;&gt; example is Quetzalcoatl.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([The Book of Mormon: A Sacred Ancient Record](https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1995/10/the-book-of-mormon-a-sacred-ancient-record?lang=eng))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is this?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4035" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="861" RevisionGUID="f836dcf3-6862-4c37-9c0e-efb10df25dd6" CreationDate="2015-05-28T00:22:51.097" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="Why do Mormons believe Quetzalcoatl (and other American deities) are Christ reincarnated?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4036" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="861" RevisionGUID="f836dcf3-6862-4c37-9c0e-efb10df25dd6" CreationDate="2015-05-28T00:22:51.097" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="|aztec|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4037" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="861" RevisionGUID="a1486a46-a2cf-4aa7-a1d1-b3b5d7f06f7a" CreationDate="2015-05-28T01:06:30.990" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited title" Text="Why do Mormons believe Quetzalcoatl (and other American deities) are actually Christ?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4038" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="859" RevisionGUID="48ee2545-e430-44ea-8dae-8210f07fcdfc" CreationDate="2015-05-28T07:05:49.410" UserId="161" Comment="Edited spelling of greek names and added few references" Text="I'm pretty convinced that the answer is: they were not absent (or, at least, Greeks did not consider them absent).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First clue, the infamous trick that Peisistratos did in order to gain popularity among Athenians: he found a tall, young, pretty lady, dressed her as Athena and put her on his chariot. They say he pretended he could not see her but, in the end, the result was that he *could* spread the rumour that Athena herself came to Athens to put he crown on the head of Athens's true ruler.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This story strongly suggests that Athenians of the age thought that it was possible, one day, as they were walking, to see a god or a goddess in front of them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are other stories as well, e.g. when in Cyme (Asia Minor) the people asked the oracle of Apollo in Didyma about whether they should provide sanctuary to a rebel from Lydia named Pactyas, there was an intervention from Aristodicus after which &quot;the voice of the god was heard&quot; ([Herodotus, Clio][1])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Second clue, I've read a few old folk stories of Greece (like the ones collected by N. Politis), stories about fairies and spirits etc. which proved clearly enough that Greeks could actually *see* supernatural entities until the 1950's (or thought they saw). Some of these stories have a similarity with ancient greek mythology, but we are not discussing this right now. :)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One mention I found about an absent god, is in Lucianus's Timon (I'm not sure if this is the play) where the leading character cries out to Zeus &quot;...unless you're dead, as Cretans believe.&quot; (Though some believe that Cretans worshiped Zeus as a ressurecting god.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.gr/books?id=rledbh92a0QC&amp;lpg=PA73&amp;ots=UPIIo2pea1&amp;dq=aristodicus%20of%20cyme&amp;hl=el&amp;pg=PA73#v=onepage&amp;q=aristodicus%20of%20cyme&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4039" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="862" RevisionGUID="1bac5e2f-871a-4996-b54c-a140fa1b7dc4" CreationDate="2015-05-28T08:45:38.647" UserId="161" Text="Apart from Hermes, **Prometheus** takes pride that he gave letters to humans. According to [Aeschylus's Prometheus Bound (v.460)][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ἐξηῦρον αὐτοῖς, γραμμάτων τε συνθέσεις&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[which translates to][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  I invented for them, and the combining of letters&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.greek-language.gr/Resources/ancient_greek/anthology/literature/browse.html?text_id=155&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0085.tlg003.perseus-eng1:436-471" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4041" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="863" RevisionGUID="ca4ba228-a577-453e-8d01-88a97cbf23c3" CreationDate="2015-05-28T14:53:58.717" UserId="367" Text="The word Fairy is most commonly used to describe a mystical entity that holds no true connection with our physical world. Because of this non-connection, the word &quot;Fairy&quot; has a neutral connotation and is used to describe the powerful forces of nature and the mystical entities that inhabit nature.  It is likely that because old Pagan religions are deeply entangled with the forces of nature, the term &quot;Fairy Tails&quot; came naturally to describe stories of mystical encounters in the forests during that time.  The modern interpretation of a &quot;Fairy&quot; has evolved to something that is still evolved with the forest but is far from what the original historical context suggested. Think... mysterious weather and swirling clouds(old pagen view of &quot;fairies&quot;) vs.. Tinker Bell(modern interpretation of &quot;fairies&quot;) " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4042" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="863" RevisionGUID="a85175c6-aa32-47e8-83a7-b666787b8e4f" CreationDate="2015-05-28T15:03:00.770" UserId="188" Comment="Spelling Corrections" Text="The word 'Fairy' is most commonly used to describe a mystical entity that holds no true connection with our physical world. Because of this non-connection, the word &quot;Fairy&quot; has a neutral connotation and is used to describe the powerful forces of nature and the mystical entities that inhabit nature.  It is likely that because old Pagan religions are deeply entangled with the forces of nature, the term &quot;Fairy Tales&quot; came naturally to describe stories of mystical encounters in the forests during that time.  The modern interpretation of a &quot;Fairy&quot; has evolved to something that is still evolved with the forest but is far from what the original historical context suggested. Think... mysterious weather and swirling clouds (old pagan view of &quot;fairies&quot;) vs.. Tinker Bell (modern interpretation of &quot;fairies&quot;) " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4043" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="863" RevisionGUID="a85175c6-aa32-47e8-83a7-b666787b8e4f" CreationDate="2015-05-28T15:03:00.770" Comment="Proposed by 188 approved by 367 edit id of 204" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4045" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="864" RevisionGUID="2a4b13dc-9e4a-4e89-b8b3-054bac6e6d8f" CreationDate="2015-05-28T19:13:21.260" UserId="42" Text="Firstly, the idea that Quetzalcoatl is, in fact, Jesus Christ, is not official LDS Church doctrine, and neither does the comparison feature particularly critically in the faith of the typical Mormon, as I understand it.  It's apologia, not dogma.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which isn't to say the idea can be dismissed there.  It seems to be a reasonably popular position in Mormon apologetics.  Indeed, the third president of the LDS church, John Taylor, was fairly certain of the link:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The story of the life of the Mexican divinity, Quetzalcoatl, closely resembles that of the Savior; so closely, indeed, that we can come to no other conclusion than that Quetzalcoatl and Christ are the same being.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(That still doesn't establish the position as church doctrine, since [prophets are fallible](http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_doctrine/Prophets_are_not_infallible))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What this is attempting to establish is, the Book of Mormon writes that Jesus appeared on the American continent, [in 3 Nephi](https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/3-ne/11.7-10?lang=eng#6).  Quetzalcoatl has proved a compelling myth to attach the story to, and suggest this is the native record of the life of Jesus.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some of the parallels identified are as follows (sources: [1](http://en.fairmormon.org/Jesus_Christ/Relationship_to_Quetzalcoatl), [2](https://ojs.lib.byu.edu/spc/index.php/JBMRS/article/viewFile/19946/18511)):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Identity as a creator deity&#xD;&#xA; - Depiction as white, with a long beard and european features&#xD;&#xA; - Virgin Birth&#xD;&#xA; - Teacher of virtue&#xD;&#xA; - Bringer of sustenance (&quot;Bread of Life&quot;)&#xD;&#xA; - Sacrifice for the benefit of man&#xD;&#xA; - Hanging from a &quot;tree&quot;&#xD;&#xA; - Ressurrection&#xD;&#xA; - Belief in a later return&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which is all fairly compelling.  The trick is figuring out what dates to the pre-Columbian era.  As [Diane E. Wirth](http://www.mormon.org/me/4swq) states in her paper [&quot;Quetzalcoatl, the Maya Maize God, and Jesus Christ&quot;](https://ojs.lib.byu.edu/spc/index.php/JBMRS/article/viewFile/19946/18511):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...Spanish chroniclers, desiring to please adherents of both Christianity and the religion of the indigenous natives, emphasized the powerful symbolic continuity between the Catholic and Mesoamerican belief systems. They did this by frequently combining myth and history from pre-Hispanic times. Such manipulation was even a native tradition in Mesoamerica.  Kings caused historical records to be manipulated in order to strengthen and authenticate their legitimacy to rule their people. Because of these practices, scholars are sometimes in a quandary as to what is historical and what is mythological." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4047" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="864" RevisionGUID="5f618a47-9721-47e4-95b5-2e733ca6e2b5" CreationDate="2015-05-28T20:23:56.110" UserId="42" Comment="added 137 characters in body" Text="Firstly, the idea that Quetzalcoatl is, in fact, Jesus Christ, is not official LDS Church doctrine, and neither does the comparison feature particularly critically in the faith of the typical Mormon, as I understand it.  It's apologia, not dogma.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which isn't to say the idea can be dismissed there.  It seems to be a reasonably popular position in Mormon apologetics.  Indeed, the third president of the LDS church, John Taylor, was fairly certain of the link:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The story of the life of the Mexican divinity, Quetzalcoatl, closely resembles that of the Savior; so closely, indeed, that we can come to no other conclusion than that Quetzalcoatl and Christ are the same being.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(That still doesn't establish the position as church doctrine, since [prophets are fallible](http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_doctrine/Prophets_are_not_infallible))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What this is attempting to establish is:  The Book of Mormon writes that Jesus appeared on the American continent, [in 3 Nephi](https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/3-ne/11.7-10?lang=eng#6).  Quetzalcoatl has proved a compelling myth to attach the story to, and suggest this is the native record of the life of Jesus.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some of the parallels identified are as follows (sources: [1](http://en.fairmormon.org/Jesus_Christ/Relationship_to_Quetzalcoatl), [2](https://ojs.lib.byu.edu/spc/index.php/JBMRS/article/viewFile/19946/18511)):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Identity as a creator deity&#xD;&#xA; - Depiction as white, with a long beard and european features&#xD;&#xA; - Virgin Birth&#xD;&#xA; - Teacher of virtue&#xD;&#xA; - Bringer of sustenance (&quot;Bread of Life&quot;)&#xD;&#xA; - Sacrifice for the benefit of man&#xD;&#xA; - Hanging from a &quot;tree&quot;&#xD;&#xA; - Ressurrection&#xD;&#xA; - Belief in a later return&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which is all fairly compelling.  The trick is figuring out which dates to the pre-Columbian era, and which resemble Christian tradition because they were directly influenced by the Christian (ie. Spanish) conquest and colonization.  As [Diane E. Wirth](http://www.mormon.org/me/4swq) states in her paper [&quot;Quetzalcoatl, the Maya Maize God, and Jesus Christ&quot;](https://ojs.lib.byu.edu/spc/index.php/JBMRS/article/viewFile/19946/18511):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...Spanish chroniclers, desiring to please adherents of both Christianity and the religion of the indigenous natives, emphasized the powerful symbolic continuity between the Catholic and Mesoamerican belief systems. They did this by frequently combining myth and history from pre-Hispanic times. Such manipulation was even a native tradition in Mesoamerica.  Kings caused historical records to be manipulated in order to strengthen and authenticate their legitimacy to rule their people. Because of these practices, scholars are sometimes in a quandary as to what is historical and what is mythological." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4048" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="630" RevisionGUID="cecbd9d8-cd99-4cd3-8f09-619b59ea564c" CreationDate="2015-05-28T23:26:01.157" UserId="-1" Comment="4" />
  <row Id="4050" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="215" RevisionGUID="75d8c51d-157e-461e-8638-77cc3ffe1392" CreationDate="2015-05-29T00:19:33.930" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="question shorter, removed unnessessary quotation" Text="In the Mayan creation myth Popol Vuh, the sport &quot;ball&quot; seems to play a special role in the story. For example, playing ball seems to have indicated a lack of respect in this section of the story:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As for One Hunahpu and Seven Hunahpu, they would merely play dice and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ball everyday. The four of them would pair off to oppose each other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now it was on the path leading to Xibalba [the underworld] where they played ball. Thus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the lords of Xibalba, One Death and Seven Death, heard them:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; “What is happening on the surface of the earth? They are just stomping&#xD;&#xA;&gt; about and shouting. May they be summoned here therefore. They shall&#xD;&#xA;&gt; come to play ball, and we shall defeat them. They have simply failed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to honor us. They have neither honor nor respect. Certainly they act&#xD;&#xA;&gt; arrogantly here over our heads,” said therefore all those of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Xibalba.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([the online version of Allen J. Christenson's translation][1])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later in the story, to punish the denizens of Xibalba (after their defeat), a different set of heroes proclaim that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; you [habitants of Xibalba] shall be brought low and shall no longer be allowed to play ball.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Nicholson, Irene. *Mexican and Central American Mythology*, Page 61.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I may not be reading the story closely enough, but I feel like there's some sort of context that I'm missing out on. Could someone please elaborate on what role the sport ball plays in the Popol Vuh?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.mesoweb.com/publications/christenson/popolvuh.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4058" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="866" RevisionGUID="bd27fabb-f660-48ea-a91e-b2aa679a2d28" CreationDate="2015-05-29T20:46:34.727" UserId="174" Text="The Old English word for fairies is [*elf*](http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=elf) (Online Etymology Dictionary):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “one of a race of powerful supernatural beings in Germanic folklore,” Old English *elf* (Mercian, Kentish), *ælf* (Northumbrian), *ylfe* (plural, West Saxon) “sprite, fairy, goblin, incubus,” from Proto-Germanic *\*albiz* (cognates: Old Saxon *alf,* Old Norse *alfr,* German *alp* “evil spirit, goblin, incubus”), origin unknown; according to Watkins, possibly from PIE *\*albho-* “white.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Old French word for fairies is [*faerie*](http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=fairy):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “land of fairies, meeting of fairies; enchantment, magic, witchcraft, sorcery” (12c.), from *fae* “fay,” from Latin *fata* “the Fates,” plural of *fatum* “that which is ordained; destiny, fate,” from PIE *\*bha-* “to speak” (see *fame* (n.)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The entry for [*fate*](http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=fate) notes that it’s also connected to the concept of guiding spirits in general and not just specifically the Fates, just as an *elf* is rooted in the concept of mischievous spirits in general.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, *faerie* is simply the French word for the concept, just as *elf* is the Germanic word and *sidhe* is the Gaelic word for it. The development of the English language is such that a lot of native words were replaced or augmented with their French equivalents. For example, the native English word for the concept of fate is *wyrd,* which still survives as one of the meanings of *weird,* but is mostly supplanted by the Latinate word *fate,* very much like how *elf* shares with the Latinate *fairy.*" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4061" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="867" RevisionGUID="73252047-3d9e-4057-afe3-c645f93f9730" CreationDate="2015-05-30T00:28:19.470" UserId="183" Text="The story of [Romulus and Remus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romulus_and_Remus) involves the abandoned twins surviving out of chance, being helped by, among others, a female wolf, who suckles them. They are later taken in by a shepherd, Faustulus, and his wife, Acca Laurentia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia says&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Another and probably late tradition has Acca Larentia as a sacred prostitute (one of many Roman slangs for prostitute was lupa (she-wolf)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The double use of &quot;she-wolf&quot; seems to be a very curious coincidence. Is there a connection between the wolf who suckled the twins and Acca Laurentia?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4062" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="867" RevisionGUID="73252047-3d9e-4057-afe3-c645f93f9730" CreationDate="2015-05-30T00:28:19.470" UserId="183" Text="Is there a connection between Acca Laurentia and the wolf that suckled Romulus and Remus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4063" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="867" RevisionGUID="73252047-3d9e-4057-afe3-c645f93f9730" CreationDate="2015-05-30T00:28:19.470" UserId="183" Text="|roman|romulus-and-remus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4066" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="867" RevisionGUID="84508c4f-9948-4ec3-b49e-9930b563af7c" CreationDate="2015-05-30T08:58:52.063" UserId="111" Comment="I think her name is Acca Larentia and not Acca Laurentia" Text="The story of [Romulus and Remus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romulus_and_Remus) involves the abandoned twins surviving out of chance, being helped by, among others, a female wolf, who suckles them. They are later taken in by a shepherd, Faustulus, and his wife, Acca Larentia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia says&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Another and probably late tradition has Acca Larentia as a sacred prostitute (one of many Roman slangs for prostitute was lupa (she-wolf)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The double use of &quot;she-wolf&quot; seems to be a very curious coincidence. Is there a connection between the wolf who suckled the twins and Acca Larentia?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4067" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="867" RevisionGUID="84508c4f-9948-4ec3-b49e-9930b563af7c" CreationDate="2015-05-30T08:58:52.063" UserId="111" Comment="I think her name is Acca Larentia and not Acca Laurentia" Text="Is there a connection between Acca Larentia and the wolf that suckled Romulus and Remus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4068" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="867" RevisionGUID="84508c4f-9948-4ec3-b49e-9930b563af7c" CreationDate="2015-05-30T08:58:52.063" Comment="Proposed by 111 approved by 57 edit id of 205" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4072" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="868" RevisionGUID="72cf7cfe-cd50-476b-97cf-1ee92f4329a6" CreationDate="2015-05-30T19:52:03.517" UserId="183" Text="&lt;p&gt;Please &lt;a href=&quot;/search&quot;&gt;look around&lt;/a&gt; to see if your question has been asked before. It’s also OK to &lt;a href=&quot;/helpcenter/self-answer&quot;&gt;ask and answer your own question&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;&#xA;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;If your question is not specifically on-topic for $SiteName, it may be on topic for another Stack Exchange site. If no site currently exists that will accept your question, you may &lt;a href=&quot;http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq&quot;&gt;commit to&lt;/a&gt; or &lt;a href=&quot;http://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/76974/how-can-i-propose-a-new-site&quot;&gt;propose&lt;/a&gt; a new site at &lt;a href=&quot;http://area51.stackexchange.com/&quot;&gt;Area51&lt;/a&gt;, the place where new Stack Exchange communities are democratically created.&lt;/p&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Please do not ask about religious questions that are not about stories of the religion." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4073" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="868" RevisionGUID="80a2cf8b-91d0-40fb-9f4e-8640ab42d174" CreationDate="2015-05-30T19:57:06.980" UserId="183" Comment="Moderator edits article" Text="&lt;p&gt;Please &lt;a href=&quot;/search&quot;&gt;look around&lt;/a&gt; to see if your question has been asked before. It’s also OK to &lt;a href=&quot;/helpcenter/self-answer&quot;&gt;ask and answer your own question&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;&#xA;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;If your question is not specifically on-topic for $SiteName, it may be on topic for another Stack Exchange site. If no site currently exists that will accept your question, you may &lt;a href=&quot;http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq&quot;&gt;commit to&lt;/a&gt; or &lt;a href=&quot;http://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/76974/how-can-i-propose-a-new-site&quot;&gt;propose&lt;/a&gt; a new site at &lt;a href=&quot;http://area51.stackexchange.com/&quot;&gt;Area51&lt;/a&gt;, the place where new Stack Exchange communities are democratically created.&lt;/p&gt;&#xA;&#xA;**What topics can I ask about here?**&#xA;&#xA;Mythology Stack Exchange is a Q&amp;A site for mythology enthusiasts and experts. You are encouraged to ask questions about:&#xA;&#xA;- Explaining the plot, character, setting or symbolism of a myth&#xA;- Historical or societal context of a myth&#xA;- Myth identification&#xA;- Translations of and primary sources for a myth&#xA; &#xA;**What qualifies as a &quot;myth&quot;?**&#xA;&#xA;- Traditional myths, i.e. stories of great cultural significance such as the labors of Hercules or King Arthur's exploits are on-topic&#xA;- Folklore is on-topic&#xA;- Stories from religious scripture are on-topic; the doctrines espoused by a religion are off-topic&#xA;- Myths that exist solely within a fictional work (e.g., Star Wars, Game of Thrones) are off-topic, though you may be able to ask about them on another site such as SciFi.SE&#xA; &#xA;**What mythology-related questions should I not ask here?**&#xA; &#xA;- Questions calling for a list of myths, deities, cultures, . . .: What are all the myths where X happens? How many cultures have a god for X?&#xA;- Scientific explanations: In this story X did Y, but is that really possible?&#xA;- Reading recommendations: I liked X, what should I read next?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4074" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="868" RevisionGUID="80a2cf8b-91d0-40fb-9f4e-8640ab42d174" CreationDate="2015-05-30T19:57:06.980" UserId="183" Comment="Moderator edits article" Text="What topics can I ask about here?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4075" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="869" RevisionGUID="d95fedb9-5b11-4e8d-bb14-37b6ecd52536" CreationDate="2015-05-31T06:40:51.940" UserId="42" Text="Sun Wukong, the Monkey King, seems to have got his start as a fictional character in the classical movel &quot;Journey to the West&quot; by Wu Cheng'en (though I have read a vague statement somewhere that earlier stories of a monkey assistant to Xuanzang may have existed).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Today, he seems to have transitioned to a religious figure, outside the context of the novel, with his birthday celebrated in September in the [&quot;Monkey King Festival&quot;](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_King_Festival).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[J. Gordon Melton's Encyclopedia of Religious Celebrations](https://books.google.com/books?id=KDU30Ae4S4cC&amp;pg=PA586&amp;hl=en#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false) presents the following brief accounting of the establishment of the Sun Wukong as a religious figure:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Monkey King is a minor Taoist figure appearing in a Buddhist novel.  The novel, however, had the effect of elevating him to a high status, at least relative to popularity.  Thus, in the wake of the novel's popularity, Monkey King temples began to appear, and a biography constructed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What novel is this (certainly not Journey to the West, the article already covered that, and calling him a minor figure in that novel would be grossly inaccurate)?  And what does this what &quot;a biography constructed&quot; mean?  Does this refer to some sort of official state, or religious, biographical document that describes approved religious figures?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4076" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="869" RevisionGUID="d95fedb9-5b11-4e8d-bb14-37b6ecd52536" CreationDate="2015-05-31T06:40:51.940" UserId="42" Text="How did the Monkey King (Sun Wukong) go from fictional character to religious icon?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4077" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="869" RevisionGUID="d95fedb9-5b11-4e8d-bb14-37b6ecd52536" CreationDate="2015-05-31T06:40:51.940" UserId="42" Text="|journey-to-the-west|china|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4078" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="869" RevisionGUID="1f380896-fce5-45c5-8e50-36e030d1b0b8" CreationDate="2015-05-31T08:40:30.100" UserId="42" Comment="added 4 characters in body; added 1 character in body" Text="Sun Wukong, the Monkey King, seems to have got his start as a fictional character in the classical movel &quot;Journey to the West&quot; by Wu Cheng'en (though I have read a vague statement somewhere that earlier stories of a monkey assistant to Xuanzang may have existed).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Today, he seems to have transitioned to a religious figure, outside the context of the novel, with his birthday celebrated in September in the [&quot;Monkey King Festival&quot;](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_King_Festival).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[J. Gordon Melton's Encyclopedia of Religious Celebrations](https://books.google.com/books?id=KDU30Ae4S4cC&amp;pg=PA586&amp;hl=en#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false) presents the following brief accounting of the establishment of the Sun Wukong as a religious figure:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Monkey King is a minor Taoist figure appearing in a Buddhist novel.  The novel, however, had the effect of elevating him to a high status, at least relative to popularity.  Thus, in the wake of the novel's popularity, Monkey King temples began to appear, and a biography constructed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What novel is this (certainly not Journey to the West, the article already covered that, and calling him a minor figure in that novel would be grossly inaccurate)?  And what does this phrase &quot;a biography constructed&quot; mean?  Does this refer to some sort of official state, or religious, biographical document that describes a recognized religious figure?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4079" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="709" RevisionGUID="62dcd38b-734a-4beb-9a29-4e4aad4f53a5" CreationDate="2015-06-01T01:36:08.913" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|sumerian|inanna|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4081" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="870" RevisionGUID="18506b60-e754-4c3f-a971-2fd2c78c5de1" CreationDate="2015-06-01T10:10:07.350" UserId="229" Text="It wasn't permanent, but I did find a similar story. In Hittite mythology, the sky/storm god [Tarhunt][1] had as his nemesis a snake/dragon god [Illuyanka][2]. Note the similarities here between the story of Thor and the [World Serpent][3]. Both are Indo-European peoples, so this is likely not coincidental.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are [two surviving accounts][4] of this story, both from [CTH 321][5]. In the second&lt;sup&gt;*&lt;/sup&gt;, Illuyanka wins an initial fight with Tarhunt, and takes his heart and eyes. So now blind, Tarhunt has to rely on trickery. He marries, fathers a son, and marries him off the snake's daughter. With that entry to the snake's home, he gets his son to retrieve the eyes and heart so that he may renew the battle (at which he is victorious and kills the serpent, but at the cost of his own son).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So while he did get eventually his eyes back, it took quite a while, and he had to sacrifice his own son to do it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;* - Interestingly, in the first story, killing the serpent involves tricking it into getting tied up, much like the Norse story of Loki's other monstrous offspring, Fenrir.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teshub&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuyanka&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rmungandr&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.jtsa.edu/Documents/pagedocs/JANES/1982%2014/Beckman14.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_texts" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4082" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="870" RevisionGUID="26210564-959e-429b-b91f-e91b194b6731" CreationDate="2015-06-01T10:20:42.383" UserId="229" Comment="added 786 characters in body" Text="It wasn't permanent, but I did find a similar story. In Hittite mythology, the sky/storm god [Tarhunt][1] had as his nemesis a snake/dragon god [Illuyanka][2]. Note the similarities here between the story of Thor and the [World Serpent][3]. Both are Indo-European peoples, so this is likely not coincidental.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are [two surviving accounts][4] of this story, both from [CTH 321][5]. In the second&lt;sup&gt;*&lt;/sup&gt;, Illuyanka wins an initial fight with Tarhunt, and takes his heart and eyes. So now blind, Tarhunt has to rely on trickery. He marries, fathers a son, and marries him off the snake's daughter. With that entry to the snake's home, he gets his son to retrieve the eyes and heart so that he may renew the battle (at which he is victorious and kills the serpent, but at the cost of his own son).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    (21) The serpent defeated the Storm-god and took his heart and eyes. ...&#xD;&#xA;    (22) And he took as his wife the daughter of a poor man, and he sired a&#xD;&#xA;         son. When he grew up, he took as his wife the daughter of the serpent.&#xD;&#xA;    (23) The Storm-god instructed his son: &quot;When you go to the house of your &#xD;&#xA;         wife, then demand from them my heart and eyes!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;    ...&#xD;&#xA;    (25) When he was again sound in body as of old, then he went once more to&#xD;&#xA;         the sea for battle. When he gave battle to him and was beginning to&#xD;&#xA;         smite the serpent, then the son of the Storm-god was with the serpent&#xD;&#xA;         and shouted up to heaven, to his father:&#xD;&#xA;    (26) &quot;Include me - do not show me any mercy!&quot; Then the Storm-god killed the&#xD;&#xA;         serpent and his own son.&#xD;&#xA;So while he did get eventually his eyes back, it took quite a while, and he had to sacrifice his own son to do it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;* - Interestingly, in the first story, killing the serpent involves tricking it into getting tied up, much like the Norse story of Loki's other monstrous offspring, Fenrir.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teshub&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuyanka&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rmungandr&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.jtsa.edu/Documents/pagedocs/JANES/1982%2014/Beckman14.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_texts" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4083" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="871" RevisionGUID="771d9d65-7d9e-4aba-8228-fceecec64abe" CreationDate="2015-06-01T11:32:02.667" UserId="111" Text="From the original, historical account of the pilgrimage of Xuangzang (i. e. *The Great Tang Dynasty Record of the Western Regions*) supposedly compiled in  646 AD to Wu Cheng'en's *Journey to the West* written during the 16th Century, there have been several novels relating the same story.  &#xD;&#xA;[The english translation of *Journey to the West* by WJF Jenner](http://www.amazon.com/Journey-Chinese-Classics-Classic-Volumes/dp/7119016636) contains in the foreword a detailed account of the known versions of that story. The earlier account including Sun Wukong seems to be from the Song Dynasty (960-1279):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The character of Monkey first appears in the stories as one of Xuanzang's escorts on his mission in the Song Dynasty, becoming an almost universal participant in the expedition during the following Southern Song Dynasty. In an extent printed storyteller's prompt book of the Southern Song Dynasty, titled *The Tale of How Sanzang of the Great Tang Dynasty Fetched the Scriptures*, Monkey appears among Xuanzang's companions in episodes such as The Mountain of Flowers and Fruit, Slaying the White Tiger Spirit, Expelling the Dragon Kui, Overcoming the Deep Sand God and Stealing and Eating the Peach of Immortality. Although the characterization is somewhat coarse and unimaginative, Monkey is from then on a permanent fixture in the framework of the stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are several theories on where does this character come from, the main theories being that he derives from the [indian monkey-god Hanuman](http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp081_monkey_sun_wukong.pdf), or that his roots can be found in the [Fukien cult of Ch'i-t'ien Ta-sheng](https://books.google.de/books?id=bNo8AAAAIAAJ&amp;lpg=PP2&amp;ots=GCxeBPQWjA&amp;dq=The%20Hsi-yu%20chi%3A%20A%20Study%20of%20Antecedents%20to%20the%20Sixteenth-Century%20Chinese%20Novel&amp;pg=PA158#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false), some link Sun Wukong with the [monkey worshipped in Lingyin Si](http://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/2719331.pdf), etc.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whichever theory is correct, it seems that the path Sun Wukong followed is not actually from fantasy novel to mythology/folklore but instead from mythology to novel, and then only to mythology/folklore again.&#xD;&#xA;And whichever theory is correct, the fact remains that the post-*Journey to the West* Sun Wukong and whichever monkey-god he originally was are significantly different, as he was completely reshaped by the novel(s).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Concerning the novel to mythology transition, here is what Whalen Lai (1994) says about it in [*Protean Ape to Handsome Saint: the Monkey King*](http://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/1178559.pdf):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; We scholars may think  of Monkey as nothing  more than a literary creation, but the  common folk of China know better.  To us,  a text  is just  a text,  but to  them *Journey* is more than fable:  it tells of reality.  The  Sage  Equal to  Heaven  is  a living  reality, as real as St. Christopher is to an old-time  Catholic.  As  St.  Christopher still protects travelers, Monkey still  answers prayers.  Monkey  has  his  own temple; he was worshipped  and prayed to  as a god by the  history-making rebels of  the  Boxer  Rebellion.  This  Great  Sage is still  present to  those  who have eyes to  see  and  ears to  hear.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4084" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="871" RevisionGUID="da0878f4-1d73-44a7-8a4e-1f240be6403f" CreationDate="2015-06-01T13:52:46.590" UserId="111" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="From the original, historical account of the pilgrimage of Xuangzang (i. e. *The Great Tang Dynasty Record of the Western Regions*) supposedly compiled in  646 AD to Wu Cheng'en's *Journey to the West* written during the 16th Century, there have been several novels relating the same story.  &#xD;&#xA;[The english translation of *Journey to the West* by WJF Jenner](http://www.amazon.com/Journey-Chinese-Classics-Classic-Volumes/dp/7119016636) contains in the foreword a detailed account of the known versions of that story. The earlier account including Sun Wukong seems to be from the Song Dynasty (960-1279):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The character of Monkey first appears in the stories as one of Xuanzang's escorts on his mission in the Song Dynasty, becoming an almost universal participant in the expedition during the following Southern Song Dynasty. In an extent printed storyteller's prompt book of the Southern Song Dynasty, titled *The Tale of How Sanzang of the Great Tang Dynasty Fetched the Scriptures*, Monkey appears among Xuanzang's companions in episodes such as The Mountain of Flowers and Fruit, Slaying the White Tiger Spirit, Expelling the Dragon Kui, Overcoming the Deep Sand God and Stealing and Eating the Peach of Immortality. Although the characterization is somewhat coarse and unimaginative, Monkey is from then on a permanent fixture in the framework of the stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are several theories on where does this character come from, the main theories being that he derives from the [indian monkey-god Hanuman](http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp081_monkey_sun_wukong.pdf), or that his roots can be found in the [Fukien cult of Ch'i-t'ien Ta-sheng](https://books.google.de/books?id=bNo8AAAAIAAJ&amp;lpg=PP2&amp;ots=GCxeBPQWjA&amp;dq=The%20Hsi-yu%20chi%3A%20A%20Study%20of%20Antecedents%20to%20the%20Sixteenth-Century%20Chinese%20Novel&amp;pg=PA158#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false), some link Sun Wukong with the [monkeys worshipped in Lingyin Si](http://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/2719331.pdf), etc.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whichever theory is correct, it seems that the path Sun Wukong followed is not actually from fantasy novel to mythology/folklore but instead from mythology to novel, and then only to mythology/folklore again.&#xD;&#xA;And whichever theory is correct, the fact remains that the post-*Journey to the West* Sun Wukong and whichever monkey-god he originally was are significantly different, as he was completely reshaped by the novel(s).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Concerning the novel to mythology transition, here is what Whalen Lai (1994) says about it in [*Protean Ape to Handsome Saint: the Monkey King*](http://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/1178559.pdf):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; We scholars may think  of Monkey as nothing  more than a literary creation, but the  common folk of China know better.  To us,  a text  is just  a text,  but to  them *Journey* is more than fable:  it tells of reality.  The  Sage  Equal to  Heaven  is  a living  reality, as real as St. Christopher is to an old-time  Catholic.  As  St.  Christopher still protects travelers, Monkey still  answers prayers.  Monkey  has  his  own temple; he was worshipped  and prayed to  as a god by the  history-making rebels of  the  Boxer  Rebellion.  This  Great  Sage is still  present to  those  who have eyes to  see  and  ears to  hear.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4085" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="869" RevisionGUID="c474fcbe-fc72-477d-bcca-4f0d5c9311e7" CreationDate="2015-06-01T14:00:16.917" UserId="111" Comment="corrected the tag, corrected typo." Text="Sun Wukong, the Monkey King, seems to have got his start as a fictional character in the classical novel *&quot;Journey to the West&quot;* by Wu Cheng'en (though I have read a vague statement somewhere that earlier stories of a monkey assistant to Xuanzang may have existed).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Today, he seems to have transitioned to a religious figure, outside the context of the novel, with his birthday celebrated in September in the [&quot;Monkey King Festival&quot;](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_King_Festival).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[J. Gordon Melton's Encyclopedia of Religious Celebrations](https://books.google.com/books?id=KDU30Ae4S4cC&amp;pg=PA586&amp;hl=en#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false) presents the following brief accounting of the establishment of the Sun Wukong as a religious figure:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Monkey King is a minor Taoist figure appearing in a Buddhist novel.  The novel, however, had the effect of elevating him to a high status, at least relative to popularity.  Thus, in the wake of the novel's popularity, Monkey King temples began to appear, and a biography constructed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What novel is this (certainly not *Journey to the West*, the article already covered that, and calling him a minor figure in that novel would be grossly inaccurate)?  And what does this phrase &quot;a biography constructed&quot; mean?  Does this refer to some sort of official state, or religious, biographical document that describes a recognized religious figure?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4086" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="869" RevisionGUID="c474fcbe-fc72-477d-bcca-4f0d5c9311e7" CreationDate="2015-06-01T14:00:16.917" UserId="111" Comment="corrected the tag, corrected typo." Text="|chinese|journey-to-the-west|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4087" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="869" RevisionGUID="c474fcbe-fc72-477d-bcca-4f0d5c9311e7" CreationDate="2015-06-01T14:00:16.917" Comment="Proposed by 111 approved by 42 edit id of 206" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4088" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="872" RevisionGUID="5efce7a9-377e-40c6-898c-b09aebf601a8" CreationDate="2015-06-01T14:44:51.787" UserId="379" Text="Since this is more a philological question, I'm going with this somewhat different take on the matter from noted philologist J.R.R. Tolkien:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; _Fairy,_ as a noun more or less equivalent to _elf,_ is a relatively modern word, hardly used until the Tudor period. The first quotation in the Oxford Dictionary (the only one before A.D. 1450) is significant. It is taken from the poet Gower: _as he were a faerie._ But this Gower did not say. He wrote _as he were of faerie,_ &quot;as if he were come from faerie&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The source for this is his noted essay [&quot;On Fairy Stories&quot;](http://excellence-in-literature.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/fairystoriesbytolkien.pdf), pp 3 (PDF). (I have taken one liberty in transcribing it: the PDF to which I linked appears to have dropped the italics. Tolkien used italics heavily; my memory of first reading &quot;On Fairy Stories&quot; includes that customary italicization; so I have attempted to recreate it as best I can. If I got it wrong, that's on me.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anyway, it's bracing to hear a professional imply that the use of the term &quot;fairies&quot; stems mainly from a publisher's error. Tolkien certainly knew his field, and was probably familiar with the occasional accident in transcription carrying large linguistic consequences.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For what it's worth, Tolkien did not hesitate to place Feerie - the land, not the inhabitants - in its proper place in mythology &amp; folklore. From the same essay, on page 4:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Faerie contains many things besides elves and fays, and besides dwarfs, witches, trolls, giants, or dragons: it holds the seas, the sun, the moon, the sky; and the earth, and all things that are in it: tree and bird, water&#xD;&#xA;and stone, wine and bread, and ourselves, mortal men, when we are enchanted.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That rather magnificent bit of wordsmithing outlines the beginning's of Tolkien's theme for the essay. I won't issue spoilers, but this admittedly fairly long piece might be of considerable interest to mythology.SE." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4089" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="873" RevisionGUID="3df6e2cb-fb9f-4769-bd9d-6ec1a8e44437" CreationDate="2015-06-01T15:10:51.537" UserId="131" Text="The Minotaur was certainly the son of the Queen of Knossos, and possibly the grandson of Poseidon, the patron of Crete. You cannot just sling such a being in a cell; building a separate wing of the palace for him (specially designed for him by the leading architect Daedalus and visited at regular intervals by the best and brightest young people of Greece) sounds much better.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Royalty, by definition, is not treated like the rest of the population when it comes to crime or disease; there was a twentieth-century story of the 'Monster of Glamis', allegedly a member of the British Royal Family born with terrible mental and physical defects who was confined to Glamis Castle for life. What credibility the story had came form the undobted fact that if such a child were born, it would certainly not have been been put in a normal asylum or seen in public." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4093" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="873" RevisionGUID="c850f394-80e3-43da-9024-13a050558662" CreationDate="2015-06-01T21:07:44.973" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added source" Text="The Minotaur was certainly the son of the Queen of Knossos, and possibly the grandson of Poseidon, the patron of Crete. You cannot just sling such a being in a cell; building a separate wing of the palace for him (specially designed for him by the leading architect Daedalus and visited at regular intervals by the best and brightest young people of Greece) sounds much better.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Royalty, by definition, is not treated like the rest of the population when it comes to crime or disease; there was a twentieth-century story of the ['Monster of Glamis'][1] -- allegedly a member of the British Royal Family born with terrible mental and physical defects -- who was confined to Glamis Castle for life (this is folklore, not a historical fact). What credibility the story had came form the undobted fact that if such a child were born, it would certainly not have been been put in a normal asylum or seen in public.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-monster-of-glamis-92015626/?no-ist" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4094" PostHistoryTypeId="8" PostId="873" RevisionGUID="0375ae94-fa80-4349-90e8-241f9e04e5a7" CreationDate="2015-06-01T21:30:43.637" UserId="131" Comment="Rollback to [3df6e2cb-fb9f-4769-bd9d-6ec1a8e44437]" Text="The Minotaur was certainly the son of the Queen of Knossos, and possibly the grandson of Poseidon, the patron of Crete. You cannot just sling such a being in a cell; building a separate wing of the palace for him (specially designed for him by the leading architect Daedalus and visited at regular intervals by the best and brightest young people of Greece) sounds much better.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Royalty, by definition, is not treated like the rest of the population when it comes to crime or disease; there was a twentieth-century story of the 'Monster of Glamis', allegedly a member of the British Royal Family born with terrible mental and physical defects who was confined to Glamis Castle for life. What credibility the story had came form the undobted fact that if such a child were born, it would certainly not have been been put in a normal asylum or seen in public." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4095" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="873" RevisionGUID="a4a0b929-8cab-44ab-aa57-77d2b9c07964" CreationDate="2015-06-01T21:38:22.313" UserId="131" Comment="added point, sub-edited." Text="The Minotaur was certainly the son of the Queen of Knossos, and possibly the grandson of Poseidon, the patron of Crete. You cannot just sling such a being in a cell; building a separate wing of the palace for him (specially designed for him by the leading architect Daedalus and visited at regular intervals by the best and brightest young people of Greece) sounds much better.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Royalty, by definition, is not treated like the rest of the population when it comes to crime or disease; there was a twentieth-century story of the 'Monster of Glamis', allegedly a member of the British Royal Family born with terrible mental and physical defects who was confined to Glamis Castle for life. The story had almost nothing behind it: what credibility it had came from the undoubted fact that if such a child had been born, it would certainly not have been been put in a normal asylum or seen in public." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4096" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="874" RevisionGUID="93545cd7-2c9c-4aca-8838-bec1eb8f48cc" CreationDate="2015-06-01T22:44:21.573" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="In the story *Peradur* in the Mabinogion, Peradur is told by his Uncle not to ask questions if he sees anything strange, unless someone explains the strange thing to him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Leave, then, the habits and the discourse of thy mother, and I will be thy teacher; and I will raise thee to the rank of knight from this time forward. And thus do thou. If thou seest aught to cause thee wonder, ask not the meaning of it; if no one has the courtesy to inform thee, the reproach will not fall upon thee, but upon me that am thy teacher.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later, Peradur sees a spear dripping with blood, and, taking his uncle's advice, does not ask about it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he beheld two youths enter the hall, and proceed up to the chamber, bearing a spear of mighty size, with three streams of blood flowing from the point to the ground. And when all the company saw this, they began wailing and lamenting. But for all that, the man did not break off his discourse with Peredur. And as he did not tell Peredur the meaning of what he saw, he forbore to ask him concerning it. And when the clamour had a little subsided, behold two maidens entered, with a large salver between them, in which was a man's head, surrounded by a profusion of blood. And thereupon the company of the court made so great an outcry, that it was irksome to be in the same hall with them. But at length they were silent. And when time was that they should sleep, Peredur was brought into a fair chamber.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later, he is told that his failure to do so meant the King would remain injured, and that he could have healed the king by asking about the spear.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;And she greeted Arthur and all his household except Peredur. And to Peredur she spoke harsh and angry words. &quot;Peredur, I greet thee not, seeing that thou dost not merit it. Blind was fate in giving thee fame and favour. When thou wast in the Court of the Lame King, and didst see there the youth bearing the streaming spear, from the points of which were drops of blood flowing in streams, even to the hand of the youth, and many other wonders likewise, thou didst not inquire their meaning nor their cause. **Hadst thou done so, the King would have been restored to health, and his dominions to peace.** Whereas from henceforth, he will have to endure battles and conflicts, and his knights will perish, and wives will be widowed, and maidens will be left portionless, and all this is because of thee.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Quotes are from [Sacred-Texts.com][1]. An alternative version of the story is available [here][2]. The best translations are offline.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Huh? Can someone explain why is it asking about the spear would have healed Peradur's family, and why he was originally told not to ask about the spear?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab10.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://web.archive.org/web/20141113121002/http://www.donaldcorrell.com/mabinogn/peredur.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4097" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="874" RevisionGUID="93545cd7-2c9c-4aca-8838-bec1eb8f48cc" CreationDate="2015-06-01T22:44:21.573" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="What is the significance of Peradur asking about (or not asking about) the bloodied spear?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4098" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="874" RevisionGUID="93545cd7-2c9c-4aca-8838-bec1eb8f48cc" CreationDate="2015-06-01T22:44:21.573" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="|welsh|mabinogion|the-native-tales|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4101" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="870" RevisionGUID="8bf8a753-91e6-4b76-87c7-0702f6b84b8e" CreationDate="2015-06-02T09:01:46.180" UserId="229" Comment="added 8 characters in body" Text="It wasn't permanent, but I did find a similar story. In Hittite mythology, the sky/storm god [Tarhunt][1] had as his nemesis a snake/dragon god [Illuyanka][2]. Note the similarities here between the story of Thor and the [World Serpent][3]. Both are Indo-European peoples, so this is likely not coincidental.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are [two surviving accounts][4] of this story, both from [CTH 321][5]. In the second&lt;sup&gt;*&lt;/sup&gt;, Illuyanka wins an initial fight with Tarhunt, and takes his heart and eyes. So now blind, Tarhunt has to rely on trickery. He marries, fathers a son, and then marries him off to the snake's daughter. With that entry to the snake's home, Tarhunt gets his son to retrieve the eyes and heart so that he may renew the battle (at which Tarhunt is victorious and kills the serpent, but at the cost of his own son).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    (21) The serpent defeated the Storm-god and took his heart and eyes. ...&#xD;&#xA;    (22) And he took as his wife the daughter of a poor man, and he sired a&#xD;&#xA;         son. When he grew up, he took as his wife the daughter of the serpent.&#xD;&#xA;    (23) The Storm-god instructed his son: &quot;When you go to the house of your &#xD;&#xA;         wife, then demand from them my heart and eyes!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;    ...&#xD;&#xA;    (25) When he was again sound in body as of old, then he went once more to&#xD;&#xA;         the sea for battle. When he gave battle to him and was beginning to&#xD;&#xA;         smite the serpent, then the son of the Storm-god was with the serpent&#xD;&#xA;         and shouted up to heaven, to his father:&#xD;&#xA;    (26) &quot;Include me - do not show me any mercy!&quot; Then the Storm-god killed the&#xD;&#xA;         serpent and his own son.&#xD;&#xA;So while he did get eventually his eyes back, it took quite a while, and he had to sacrifice his own son to do it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;* - Interestingly, in the first story, killing the serpent involves tricking it into getting tied up, much like the Norse story of Loki's other monstrous offspring, Fenrir.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teshub&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuyanka&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rmungandr&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.jtsa.edu/Documents/pagedocs/JANES/1982%2014/Beckman14.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_texts" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4102" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="875" RevisionGUID="5f3b8574-d19c-4686-b600-ec4195789e34" CreationDate="2015-06-02T12:59:57.990" UserId="108" Text="To expand on @plannapus' answer:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Chinese folk religion or Taoism doesn't worship *Sun Wu Kong* (`孫悟空`) *per se*, but rather a monkey deity usually referred to as the *Great Sage* (`大聖`) or *Heaven Rivaling Great Sage* (`齊天大聖`). Historically, this has been particularly prevalent in [Fukien](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fujian), but stories similar to Sun Wu Kong's backstory can be found in several regions. **This predates the *c.* 1592 [*Journey to the West*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_to_the_West)**, but the popularity of that novel furnished the traditional monkey deity with a standardised (sort of) backstory and the name Sun Wu Kong.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roots of the modern monkey deity worship certainly predates the late 16th century fictional work, however. From about the late Yuan dynasty, elements of traditional folklore were incorporated into fictional works. A play by the Mongolian playwrite Yang Jing-xian, confusingly also titled *Journey to the West*, contains an autobiographic line by a certain *&quot;Itinerant Monk Sun&quot;* (recycled into the much later novel as a common title for Sun Wu Kong):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 《元·楊景賢·西遊記·第三本》小聖弟兄、姊妹五人，大姊驪山老母，二妹巫枝祗聖母，大兄齊天大聖，小聖通天大聖，三弟耍耍三郎&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I have five brothers and sisters. Big sister is the *Old Lady of [Mt Li](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Li)*; little sister is the *Wu Zhiqi Sage*; big brother is the *Heaven Rivaling Great Sage*; **I am the *Heaven Reaching Great Sage***; and little brother is Shua Shua.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that here, Xuanzhong's monkey companion has a name (Heaven Reaching Great Sage) that's different form its usual modern version (Heaven Rivaling Great Sage). Both names do however appear for the monkey brothers in contemporary works such as the play `二郎神鎖齊天大聖` or the novella `陳從善梅嶺失渾家`. They are also found in an archaeological site on Baoshan mountain in [Shunchang, Fukien](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunchang_County), known as the Twin Sages Tomb. it's located near the Southern Heaven Gate, a temple first built in 1391 and rebuilt in 1548, which some scholars argue are the upper and lower bounds for the tomb's age.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here][3]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;(順昌寶山雙聖墓 - Twin Sages Tomb, at Baoshan, Fukien)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The inscriptions are difficult to read from the photo, but the left is the [spirit tablet](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_tablet) for a certain *Heaven Reaching Great Saint* (`通天大聖`), while the right is for the more familiar *Heaven Rivaling Great Saint*. The positioning (left is senior) and style of the steles matches the play's version that the *Heaven Reaching Great Saint* is the younger brother.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On this basis it is thought that the *Journey*'s character of Sun Wukong - and the monkey deity - is in fact **an amalgamation of both Great Sages and their sister, *Wu Zhiqi*.** That is in fact a considerably more ancient name, tracing back to at least ninth century. During the Tang Dynasty, [Li Gongzu](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Gongzuo), a fantasy novelist who penned the famous [*Governor of Nanke*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Governor_of_Nanke), wrote that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;《唐·李公佐·古岳讀經》 禹理水，三至桐柏山，驚風走雷，石號木鳴，五伯擁川，天老肅兵，不能興。禹怒，召集百靈，搜命夔龍，桐柏千君長稽首請命，禹因囚鴻蒙氏、章商氏、兜盧氏、犁婁氏，乃獲淮渦水神，名無支祁，善應對言語，辨江淮之淺深、原隰之遠近。形若猿猴，縮鼻高額，青軀白首，金目雪牙，頸伸百尺，力逾九象，搏擊騰踔疾奔，輕利倏忽，聞視不可久，禹授之章律，不能制，授之鳥木由，不能制，授之庚辰，能制。鴟脾桓木魅水靈，山妖石怪，奔號聚繞，以數千載，庚辰以戰逐去，頸鎖大索，鼻穿金鈴，徙淮陰之龜山之足下&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While trying to control the flood, [Yu](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yu_the_Great) came to [Tongbai](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tongbai_County) thrice ... [there he] captured the river god of [Huai](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huai_River). **It is named Wu Zichi and shaped like a money**, with a sunken forehead and tall nose, a green body and white face, golden eyes and white teeth ... With a chain tied around his neck, [the monkey] was imprisoned under the Turtle Mountain of Huai.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While it might only be his own fictional invention, the story was collected into `戎幕閒談`, a compilation of strange tales by the Tang writer Wei Xuan (`韋絢`), as the explanation for a supposed incident he heard:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 時有漁人，夜釣於龜山之下，其釣因物所制，不複出。漁者健水，疾沉於下五十丈，見大鐵鎖，盤繞山足，尋不知極，遂告湯。湯命漁人及能水者數十，獲其獲，力莫能制，加以牛五十餘頭，鎖乃振動，稍稍就岸。時無風濤，驚浪翻湧，觀者大駭，鎖之末，見一獸，狀有如猿，白首長口，雪牙金爪，闖然上岸。高五丈許，蹲踞之狀若猿猴，但兩目不能開，兀若昏昧，目鼻水流如泉，涎沫腥穢，人不可近。久乃引頸伸欠，雙目忽開，光彩若電，顧視人焉，欲發狂怒，觀者奔走，獸亦徐徐引鎖，拽牛入水去，竟不複出&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A fisherman was fishing by the Turtle Mountain at night. His hook was caught on something and would not budge. Knowing how to swim, he dived in 50 yards, and saw a seemingly endless, large iron chain surrounding the foot of the mountain. He reported what he saw to the governor, who sent dozens of swimmers and more than 50 bulls to pull the chain out. There was no wind at the time, but to the shock of bystanders huge waves formed on the river. **At the end of the chain, there was a beast, shaped like a monkey/ape, white faced and long moused, white teeth and golden eyes.** He stumbled onto the shore, some five yards tall, moving like a monkey but with his eyes closed ... [after a while] his eyes suddenly opened, looking around like lightening, and looked around like he's about to go on a rampage. Everyone started running off, and he slowly walked back into the water, dragging the bulls with him, and vanished.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Furthermore, the Tang scholar Li Zhao records in his *Addendum to Tang Histories* (`唐國史補`) that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 楚州有漁人，忽于准中釣得古鐵鎖，挽之不絕，以告官。刺史李陽大集人力引之。鎖窮，有青獼猴躍出水，复沒而逝。後有驗《山海經》云：水獸好為害，禹鎖于軍山之下，其名曰無支奇&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A fisherman from Chu found an old iron chain in the Huai River. He pulled on it but it went on endlessly, so he reported it to the government. The governor gathered many men to pull. At the end of the chain, a green monkey lept out of the water, then vanished. Consulting the *Classics of Mountains and Seas* found a passage saying: A water beast was being a pest, and Yu locked it under the Jun Mountain. **Its name is Wu Zichi.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [*Classics of Mountains and Seas*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_of_Mountains_and_Seas) cited in the last passage is an ancient bestiary that dates back as far as the fourth century *B.C.*, but the extant versions do not contain this supposed quote. It is quite possible that this part is a fabrication - citing old documents lend credence to the story. Nonetheless, the numerous references to the story suggests that, while the specifics might be inventions of writers, the idea of a monkey river god was an established concept in Chinese folklore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover, there are obvious parallels with the Sun Wukong character from the *Journey to the West*. The imprisonment under a mountain is particularly notable, and the physical description of the monkey Wu Zichi's golden eyes is an obvious precursor to Sun Wukong's fabled true seeing Flaming Eyes and Golden Iris (`火眼金睛`). These similarities are why Wu Zichi is widely considered the origin of Chinese folk religion's monkey deity, the Great Sage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An alternative school of thought argues that the Great Sage was inspired by the Hindu monkey god [Hanuman](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanuman). Whether a native Wu Zichi absorbed influences of Hanuman, or whether Wu Zichi itself was inspired by Hanuman, is a matter of some scholarly debate. Regardless of the true sequence of events, a tradition of a monkey deity most likely found itself transplanted from India into China. An (originally) [Tang](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_dynasty) era Hindu-Buddhist [Kaiyuan Temple](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiyuan_Temple_(Quanzhou)) at [Zayton](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quanzhou) contains a stone mural widely considered to depict Sun Wu Kong.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here][2]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;(泉州開元寺仁壽塔 - Renshou Pagoda, rebuilt in 1237, at the Kaiyuan Temple, Fukien.)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This &quot;Itinerant Monk Sun (Monkey)&quot;, as the mural is often called, predates *Journey to the West* by centuries.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since the Ming Dynasty, Fukien has been a primary source of Chinese emigration and colonialisation. Unsurprisingly, veneration of the monkey god was transplanted by Hokkien settlers to Taiwan and South East Asia by Hokkien settlers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/qzS8w.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/YbyFZ.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/fAYW6.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4104" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="876" RevisionGUID="728e4cba-f4d7-4884-adab-0df5d8b5dce6" CreationDate="2015-06-03T00:03:15.153" UserId="385" Text="I studied Latin in 7th grade, and my teacher used to read some stories from Greek and Roman mythology to us. There is one of those that I wanted to learn more about, but haven't been able to find. Here is what I remember. Bear with me, that was over twenty years ago.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One god (or two?) is travelling disguised as mortals. He asks an elderly, poor couple for hospitality, and is very well received. The couple goes as far as killing its only goose to feed the traveller.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If I remember correctly, they keep serving wine to the traveller, and realise something is weird because the amphora remains full.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eventually the traveller reveals that he is a god and, to thank them for their generosity, turns them both into a tree, half oak and half olive tree or something of the sort, so that they will forever together.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As I said, it was a very long time ago, and I may have some elements wrong, but I think I remember the general idea correctly. Does someone know what Greek and/or Roman myth this is?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4105" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="876" RevisionGUID="728e4cba-f4d7-4884-adab-0df5d8b5dce6" CreationDate="2015-06-03T00:03:15.153" UserId="385" Text="What is this myth: elderly couple unwittingly feed gods, changed into tree" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4106" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="876" RevisionGUID="728e4cba-f4d7-4884-adab-0df5d8b5dce6" CreationDate="2015-06-03T00:03:15.153" UserId="385" Text="|roman|greek|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4108" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="877" RevisionGUID="bf8e1489-f46b-468e-940e-5f8eeb021188" CreationDate="2015-06-03T00:27:00.687" UserId="18" Text="##This is the myth of Baucis and Philemon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is the Wikipedia page: [Baucis and Philemon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baucis_and_Philemon), and here is one website with the full text (I think): [Tales Beyond Belief: Baucis and Philemon](http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/myth-stories/baucis-and-philemon.htm).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By the way, the two gods were **Zeus** and **Hermes**, and the two trees were **oak** and **linden**." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4109" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="679" RevisionGUID="105a9544-17f1-4534-ac57-e6706b0bffb6" CreationDate="2015-06-03T01:35:13.150" UserId="183" Comment="added 55 characters in body" Text="1. **[The dragons trapped by Lludd.](http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/lludd.html)**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; In *The Adventure of Lludd and Llefelys*, there are three plagues which fall upon Britain. The second is a horrible screech that renders the inhabitants scared. King Lludd, on the advice of his brother, Llefelys, builds a pit in the center of Britain, at Oxford. He traps the dragons responsible for the screeches by getting them drunk with mead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt; This dragon is being attacked by a foreign enemy. The burial of the two dragons keeps Britain safe from invasion (making it one of the Three Concealments, until they are revealed again by Vortigern (one of the Three Disclosures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. **[The Bones of Gwerhefyr Fendigaid.](http://www.nightsoftheroad.com/category/the-mabinogion/)**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt; The other two are the Bones of Gwerhefyr Fendigaid, buried in various ‘great ports’ around the coast, and the Dragons which Lludd ap Beli or Lugh of the Silver Hand, Celtic god of health and healing, captured at Oxford – center of the ancient kingdom – and buried in Dinas Emrys in Snowdonia, deemed to be the strongest part of the island.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; The Concealments are also detailed [here](http://www.vortigernstudies.org.uk/artsou/triadstex.htm), in what seems to be an original manuscript, *The Welsh Triads*, from the 14th century:&#xD;&#xA; &gt; The Head of Bran the Blessed, son of Llyr, which was buried in the White Hill in London. And as long as the Head was there in that position, no Oppression would ever come to this Island;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The second: the Bones of Gwerthefyr the Blessed, which were buried in the Chief Ports of this Island;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The third: the Dragons which Lludd son of Beli buried in Dinas Emrys in Eryri.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; This text also details the Three Unfortunate Disclosures, which are based on the Three Unfortunate Concealments:&#xD;&#xA; &gt; And there were the Three Unfortunate Disclosures when these were disclosed.&#xD;&#xA;And Gwrtheyrn the Thin disclosed the bones of Gwerthefyr the Blessed form the love of a woman: that was Ronnwen the pagan woman;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And it was he who disclosed the Dragons;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And Arthur disclosed the head of Bran the Blessed from the White Hill, because it did not seem right to him that this Island should be defended by the strenght of anyone, but by his own." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4111" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="876" RevisionGUID="6e9375a2-7a83-4005-8c4e-4b00c43541c9" CreationDate="2015-06-03T13:42:10.033" UserId="385" Comment="couple grammar mistakes" Text="I studied Latin in 7th grade, and my teacher used to read some stories from Greek and Roman mythology to us. There is one of those that I wanted to learn more about, but haven't been able to find. Here is what I remember. Bear with me, that was over twenty years ago.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One god (or two?) is travelling disguised as a mortal. He asks an elderly, poor couple for hospitality, and is very well received. The couple goes as far as killing its only goose to feed the traveller.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If I remember correctly, they keep serving wine to the traveller, and realise something is weird because the amphora remains full.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eventually the traveller reveals that he is a god and, to thank them for their generosity, turns them both into a tree, half oak and half olive tree or something of the sort, so that they will remain forever together.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As I said, it was a very long time ago, and I may have some elements wrong, but I think I remember the general idea correctly. Does someone know what Greek and/or Roman myth this is?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4112" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="430" RevisionGUID="1cfc3e4e-71f4-4a66-9de5-00fe52a24792" CreationDate="2015-06-03T15:38:13.767" UserId="183" Comment="5" />
  <row Id="4113" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="869" RevisionGUID="1bc1dfef-953f-407a-995e-7a748479035d" CreationDate="2015-06-03T20:38:56.587" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="6" />
  <row Id="4117" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="878" RevisionGUID="20855a15-434a-49d9-89ef-81d1fe2c6407" CreationDate="2015-06-04T11:49:35.533" UserId="229" Text="I was researching my tribe's [clan history][1] and came across something interesting. Osages, like most American Indian tribes, name their tribes after either mythological creatures, or common animals (typically with a mythological backstory for the choice).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the other subclans caught my eye: &quot;Puma in the Water&quot;. This appears to be a reference to a common American Indian mythological character, [Underwater Panther][2]. I had never previously heard of this creature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apparently, he is the opposite and nemesis of [Thunderbird][3] (which I had heard of)&lt;sup&gt;*&lt;/sup&gt;. He's not an actual panther, but rather an aquatic hybrid creature with a feline body, but also horns, scales, and a very long tail.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, every reference to Underwater Panther I could dig up was in the mythology of [Great-lakes area Algonquin-speaking tribes][5]. Osages are not Algonquians, but rather Mississippi Valley Sioxans. And yet, there Underwater Panther is in my tribal history. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia does now mention some possibility of a connection with the [Mississippians][6]. My tribe maintains that the Middle Mississippians were their ancestors, and there does seem to be some consensus that at least some of them were probably Siouxan. That's about the best breadcrumb I have.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the question here is exactly how widespread was Underwater Panther mythology among the Native American tribes? What nations featured it? Is he everwhere that has Thunderbird as well?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;* - Yes, Osages have a Thunderbird clan as well. &lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.hotcakencyclopedia.com/ho.OsageClans.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwater_panther&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunderbird_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/dFuiK.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anishinaabe&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippian_culture" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4118" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="878" RevisionGUID="20855a15-434a-49d9-89ef-81d1fe2c6407" CreationDate="2015-06-04T11:49:35.533" UserId="229" Text="Popularity of Underwater Panther" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4119" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="878" RevisionGUID="20855a15-434a-49d9-89ef-81d1fe2c6407" CreationDate="2015-06-04T11:49:35.533" UserId="229" Text="|mythical-creatures|comparative|native-american|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4120" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="878" RevisionGUID="8c855a18-f15d-4bbc-94d4-a48829ef44ea" CreationDate="2015-06-04T11:54:51.897" UserId="229" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="I was researching my tribe's [clan history][1] and came across something interesting. Osages, like most American Indian tribes, name their clans after either mythological creatures, or common animals (typically with a mythological backstory for the choice).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the other subclans caught my eye: &quot;Puma in the Water&quot;. This appears to be a reference to a common American Indian mythological character, [Underwater Panther][2]. I had never previously heard of this creature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apparently, he is the opposite and nemesis of [Thunderbird][3] (which I had heard of)&lt;sup&gt;*&lt;/sup&gt;. He's not an actual panther, but rather an aquatic hybrid creature with a feline body, but also horns, scales, and a very long tail.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, every reference to Underwater Panther I could dig up was in the mythology of [Great-lakes area Algonquin-speaking tribes][5]. Osages are not Algonquians, but rather Mississippi Valley Sioxans. And yet, there Underwater Panther is in my tribal history. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia does now mention some possibility of a connection with the [Mississippians][6], but completely unattested. My tribe maintains that the Middle Mississippians were their ancestors, and there does seem to be some consensus that at least some of them were probably Siouxan. That's about the best breadcrumb I have.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the question here is exactly how widespread was Underwater Panther mythology among the Native American tribes? What nations featured it? Is he everwhere that has Thunderbird as well?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;* - Yes, Osages have a clan associated with Thunderbird as well. &lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.hotcakencyclopedia.com/ho.OsageClans.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwater_panther&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunderbird_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/dFuiK.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anishinaabe&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippian_culture" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4131" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="878" RevisionGUID="15fba3e7-61c8-4d85-a2ff-37b8e4362c1b" CreationDate="2015-06-04T14:35:35.413" UserId="229" Comment="edited title" Text="Prevalence of Underwater Panther" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4133" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="880" RevisionGUID="d741811b-aff2-4347-9242-57c69d89def3" CreationDate="2015-06-04T17:45:09.973" UserId="355" Text="How should one look at the coming to be of the different Greek/Roman Gods and the stories behind them..More specifically; how formal was it?&#xA;&#xA;Was it more informally: a continuous, more dynamic process?&#xA;Or was it more formal: all stories developed in a short period and stayed that way?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4134" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="880" RevisionGUID="d741811b-aff2-4347-9242-57c69d89def3" CreationDate="2015-06-04T17:45:09.973" UserId="355" Text="How formal was the coming to be of Greek/Roman mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4135" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="880" RevisionGUID="d741811b-aff2-4347-9242-57c69d89def3" CreationDate="2015-06-04T17:45:09.973" UserId="355" Text="|history|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4136" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="880" RevisionGUID="fb6eb980-e082-4cea-a023-e79f393777db" CreationDate="2015-06-04T17:51:05.913" UserId="355" Comment="added 117 characters in body" Text="How should one look at the coming to be of the different Greek/Roman Gods and the stories behind them..More specifically; how formal was it?&#xA;&#xA;Was it more informally: a continuous, more dynamic process? Could you for example make yourself some new stories and if they were popular they got picked up and written down?&#xA;&#xA;Or was it more formal: all stories developed in a short period and stayed that way?&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4137" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="880" RevisionGUID="768ed57e-f72a-4c0d-a1e4-1f525d7040e2" CreationDate="2015-06-04T18:00:28.117" UserId="183" Comment="added 3 characters in body; edited tags" Text="How should one look at the coming to be of the different Greek/Roman gods and the stories behind them. More specifically, how formal was it?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was it more informally: a continuous, more dynamic process? Could you for example make yourself some new stories and if they were popular they got picked up and written down?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or was it more formal: all stories developed in a short period and stayed that way?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4138" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="880" RevisionGUID="768ed57e-f72a-4c0d-a1e4-1f525d7040e2" CreationDate="2015-06-04T18:00:28.117" UserId="183" Comment="added 3 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|greek|roman|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4139" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="881" RevisionGUID="da4d0994-8466-40a8-914d-2c309ca509cd" CreationDate="2015-06-05T07:05:40.747" UserId="111" Text="Now that there is a bounty and an answer, i feel a bit self-conscious to self-answer but I happen to have stumbled across an article, a couple of weeks ago, that is relevant to this question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is an article by Åke Hultkrantz called [*A new look at the world pillar in Arctic and sub-Arctic religions*](https://books.google.de/books?hl=en&amp;lr=&amp;id=rvf0V3z-6asC&amp;oi=fnd&amp;pg=PA31&amp;dq=arctic+the+world+axis&amp;ots=ncSmrWTluY&amp;sig=GEsTlLVPzHACLpu8TGZ2qAbrXvc#v=onepage&amp;q=arctic%20the%20world%20axis&amp;f=false).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Hultkrantz, there is a cosmogonical concept common to a number of Eurasian arctic and subarctic people: that of a world pillar/pole maintaining the sky. Here is what he says about its relationship with the north star:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The top of the world pillar, or the world pillar as a whole, is identified with the polar star. Basic here is the observation that, in the northern sky, the stars revolve as if around a fixed point. It is believed that this point is the upper end of the world pillar, provided with an iron needle around which the sky circles. This needle is the mechanism for the rotation of the sky, and is thereby easily identified with the polar star.  &#xD;&#xA;The distribution of the pertinent traits shows that while the concept of the polar star as the fixed point of the world pillar seems to be common to the whole circumpolar area, the idea of the needle is only represented among Eurasian sub-Arctic peoples. [...]  &#xD;&#xA;The nail on the world column, or what we here conveniently could call the &quot;world nail&quot;, has apparently been a widely distributed Eurasian concept. All sources at our disposal hint that this nail was identical with the polar star. This holds for the Saamis, the Esthonians, the Samoyeds, the Chuckchee and the Koryak. It is furthermore most interesting that the polar star has been called world pillar. Thus, as Harva has noted, Mongols, Buryats, Kalmucks, Altai Tatars and Uigurs call the polar star &quot;the golden pillar&quot;, Kirghis, Bashgirs and other Tatars name it &quot;iron pillar&quot;, the Teleuts &quot;the lone post&quot; and the Orotchi (Tungus) &quot;the golden post&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the origin of the concept, according to Hultkrantz:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The world pillar, we may insist, genuinely represents an archaic, circumpolar world view. Since circumpolar culture, besides being an adaptation to the Arctic and sub-Arctic environment, typifies a culture of mesolithic-palaeolithic origins it seems probable that the world pillar and associated mythic-ritual complex may be traced back to this time and age." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4144" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="880" RevisionGUID="8118bfc1-9144-454f-9541-d810f8a1f8a5" CreationDate="2015-06-06T01:55:44.330" UserId="-1" Comment="103" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:62,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Christofian&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:171,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Deion&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:31,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Robert Longson&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:18,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;El'endia Starman&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="4145" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="853" RevisionGUID="6c34fc89-1c8c-4fc2-a824-b197744b8f97" CreationDate="2015-06-06T02:23:32.837" UserId="188" Comment="It appears that I spelt 'permanently' wrong..." Text="Are there any other gods that permanently lost an eye, other than Odin?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4149" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="880" RevisionGUID="eb65d511-5c87-4c87-a409-9f09f5e7d087" CreationDate="2015-06-07T12:44:14.910" UserId="398" Comment="Edited to make OP's question clearer. It was actually straightforward once certain phrases were replaced with key vocabulary." Text="How should one look at the creation of the different Greek and Roman gods and the stories behind them. Was the process informal, i.e. an on-going ad hoc collection of stories? Could anyone just make up a myth/god and if they were popular they got picked up and written down? Or Or was it more formal: were all the stories developed in a short period and stayed that way?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4150" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="880" RevisionGUID="eb65d511-5c87-4c87-a409-9f09f5e7d087" CreationDate="2015-06-07T12:44:14.910" Comment="Proposed by 398 approved by 79, 38 edit id of 208" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4152" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="885" RevisionGUID="52dbc8ba-bce4-4338-9db7-642893de0b6e" CreationDate="2015-06-07T14:57:07.987" UserId="400" Text="The Sanskrit scriptures mentions the colour of the divine entities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sri Hari was first golden colour, then white, then sky blue and dark.&#xD;&#xA;Siva is white&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Durga/Lalitha - red in colour (raktha varna) golden hued (swarn Ambika)&#xD;&#xA;Parvathy/Girija green in colour &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In essence God is formless, colourless, He is in everything and everything is with in Him. He lives in everything (Sarva bhootha nivaso asi Vasudeva namosthuthe)   " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4156" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="869" RevisionGUID="9e2b8fd3-b084-459c-9737-1943a6b1403b" CreationDate="2015-06-07T22:32:19.490" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="6" />
  <row Id="4157" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="887" RevisionGUID="f5dffe22-0015-4c5b-9cef-96d27fa53899" CreationDate="2015-06-07T23:02:37.133" UserId="42" Text="Hinduism is generally considered to have begun around 500-200 BCE.  This formation of Hinduism from a combination of other traditions is often referred to as the &quot;Hindu Synthesis&quot; or &quot;Brahmanic Synthesis&quot;.  This formative process is counted as lasting into the beginning of the Gupta Empire, around 320 CE. (see [The Religious Traditions of Asia: Religion, History, and Culture](https://books.google.nl/books?id=kfyzAAAAQBAJ&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;hl=nl#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false) by Joseph M. Kitagawa).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As might be implied by the name, this formation of Hinduism involved the combining of historical [Vedic tranditions](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Vedic_religion) (Brahmanism), and the [Śramaṇa tradition](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sramana) (which is also linked to Buddhism and Jainism), over a course of centuries.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most significant texts would be [the Vedas](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedas) and [the Upanishads](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanishads), which are remain among the most prominently featured texts in Hindu observance, and are generally considered to predate the formation of Hinduism." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4158" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="880" RevisionGUID="0e155c9d-11df-46e0-85f4-0fd9f1c28ac1" CreationDate="2015-06-07T23:26:03.553" UserId="42" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body" Text="How should one look at the creation of the different Greek and Roman gods and the stories behind them. Was the process informal, i.e. an on-going ad hoc collection of stories? Could anyone just make up a myth/god and if they were popular they got picked up and written down? Or was it more formal: were all the stories developed in a short period and stayed that way?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4159" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="887" RevisionGUID="e1c3a226-080f-4115-85cd-ff5dc34f0248" CreationDate="2015-06-08T03:20:57.273" UserId="42" Comment="added 18 characters in body" Text="Hinduism is generally considered to have begun around 500-200 BCE.  Hinduism was formed from a combination of other traditions, in what is often referred to as the &quot;Hindu Synthesis&quot; or &quot;Brahmanic Synthesis&quot;.  This formative process is counted as lasting into the beginning of the Gupta Empire, around 320 CE. (see [The Religious Traditions of Asia: Religion, History, and Culture](https://books.google.nl/books?id=kfyzAAAAQBAJ&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;hl=nl#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false) by Joseph M. Kitagawa).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As might be implied by the name, this formation of Hinduism involved the combining multiple earlier traidtions,  in particular the historical [Vedic tranditions](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Vedic_religion) (Brahmanism), and the [Śramaṇa tradition](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sramana) (which is also linked to Buddhism and Jainism), over a course of centuries.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most significant texts would be [the Vedas](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedas) and [the Upanishads](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanishads), which remain among the most prominent Hindu texts, and are generally considered to predate the formation of Hinduism." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4160" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="888" RevisionGUID="a0cc25bd-5755-43b1-ba72-75be8fef0116" CreationDate="2015-06-08T18:28:07.520" UserId="42" Text="The underwater panther is indeed a very widespread figure.  [Ancient Objects and Sacred Realms: Interpretations of Mississippian Iconography](https://books.google.com/books?id=HeDkqLlJNEIC&amp;pg=PA109#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false) has a section titled &quot;The Forms of the Underwater Powers&quot;, which gives brief descriptions of records of similar traditions from peoples spanning the Plains, Mississippi river valley, Great Lakes, and Southeastern United States.  The figure is referred to in different ways, sometimes a Great Serpent, or Underwater Panther, or others.  In common, though, it is a powerful being of the Underworld, usually has horns and combines qualities of multiple animals, and opposes the Thunderbird (or similar Overworld being).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To justify linking these traditions (Great Serpent and Underwater Panther), the author has this to say:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Although Western eyes might readily identify the two creatures as quite different species, the native view, rooted in shape-shifting and symbolic imagery, seems to find much less distinction between the two.  It appears, in fact, that the two quite different images would be better envisioned as the two ends of a pole, with various morphs possible between the extremes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Generally, the [Southeastern Ceremonial Complex](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeastern_Ceremonial_Complex) seems to be (very roughly) a reasonable fit, though I have seen some sources that dispute the usefulness of that model.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Southeastern Ceremonial Complex][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Among the particular peoples called out in the aforementioned book as having such a tradition:  Algonkian peoples (in general), Ojibwa, Illinois, Peoria, Shawnee,  Miami, Plains tribes (broadly), Mitchigamea, Menominee, Meskwaki (Fox), Cree, Sioux, Muskogee (Creek), Potawatomi, Dakota, Delaware, Mandan, Hidatsa, Arikara, Omaha, Ponca, Winnebago, Micmac, Passamaquoddy, and Penobscot.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While the tradition is very widespread, I don't believe it would be safe to say that it appears everywhere that Thunderbird myths occur.  For a counterexample, Thunderbird is a major figure in Pacific Northwest traditions, but to the best of my knowledge, Underwater Panther does *not* occur in that region.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ZgjTK.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4161" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="887" RevisionGUID="2acbe805-7dfe-4f76-8331-e577207ce9bb" CreationDate="2015-06-08T18:32:23.983" UserId="42" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="Hinduism is generally considered to have begun around 500-200 BCE.  Hinduism was formed from a combination of other traditions, in what is often referred to as the &quot;Hindu Synthesis&quot; or &quot;Brahmanic Synthesis&quot;.  This formative process is counted as lasting into the beginning of the Gupta Empire, around 320 CE. (see [The Religious Traditions of Asia: Religion, History, and Culture](https://books.google.nl/books?id=kfyzAAAAQBAJ&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;hl=nl#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false) by Joseph M. Kitagawa).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As might be implied by the name, this formation of Hinduism involved the combining multiple earlier traditions,  in particular the historical [Vedic traditions](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Vedic_religion) (Brahmanism), and the [Śramaṇa tradition](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sramana) (which is also linked to Buddhism and Jainism), over a course of centuries.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most significant texts would be [the Vedas](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedas) and [the Upanishads](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanishads), which remain among the most prominent Hindu texts, and are generally considered to predate the formation of Hinduism." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4162" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="888" RevisionGUID="86906a3e-a954-465d-b829-1a776fc3292c" CreationDate="2015-06-08T18:37:06.207" UserId="42" Comment="deleted 7 characters in body" Text="The underwater panther is indeed a very widespread figure.  [Ancient Objects and Sacred Realms: Interpretations of Mississippian Iconography](https://books.google.com/books?id=HeDkqLlJNEIC&amp;pg=PA109#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false) has a section titled &quot;The Forms of the Underwater Powers&quot;, which gives brief descriptions of records of similar traditions from peoples spanning the Plains, Mississippi river, Great Lakes, and Southeastern United States.  The figure is referred to in different ways, sometimes a Great Serpent, or Underwater Panther, or others.  In common, though, it is a powerful being of the Underworld, usually has horns and combines qualities of multiple animals, and opposes the Thunderbird (or similar Overworld being).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To justify linking these traditions (Great Serpent and Underwater Panther), the author has this to say:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Although Western eyes might readily identify the two creatures as quite different species, the native view, rooted in shape-shifting and symbolic imagery, seems to find much less distinction between the two.  It appears, in fact, that the two quite different images would be better envisioned as the two ends of a pole, with various morphs possible between the extremes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Generally, the [Southeastern Ceremonial Complex](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeastern_Ceremonial_Complex) seems to be (very roughly) a reasonable fit, though I have seen some sources that dispute the usefulness of that model.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Southeastern Ceremonial Complex][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Among the particular peoples called out in the aforementioned book as having such a tradition:  Algonkian peoples (in general), Ojibwa, Illinois, Peoria, Shawnee,  Miami, Plains tribes (broadly), Mitchigamea, Menominee, Meskwaki (Fox), Cree, Sioux, Muskogee (Creek), Potawatomi, Dakota, Delaware, Mandan, Hidatsa, Arikara, Omaha, Ponca, Winnebago, Micmac, Passamaquoddy, and Penobscot.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While the tradition is very widespread, I don't believe it would be safe to say that it appears everywhere that Thunderbird myths occur.  For a counterexample, Thunderbird is a major figure in Pacific Northwest traditions, but to the best of my knowledge, Underwater Panther does *not* occur in that region.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ZgjTK.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4163" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="880" RevisionGUID="76b44206-b218-4ead-9d3a-e7ae0f8960bd" CreationDate="2015-06-08T18:39:11.710" UserId="355" Comment="structure, clarification, making it more specific (only greek mythology)" Text="How should one look at the creation/development of the Greek gods and the stories behind them.&#xD;&#xA;More specifically; I would like to know how formal/informal it was.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Let me explain I little more what I mean by &quot;formal&quot; or &quot;informal&quot;...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Formal:** Given the religious element of the stories, I could imagine that they were very &quot;official&quot;, implying that they were created in a relatively short time and by a relatively small group off people. Without many extentions or modifications afterwards.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Informal:** I could also imagine that the stories were more naturally develloped, like an on-going ad hoc collection of stories. A scenario where anyone could just make up a myth/god and where the popular ones got picked up and written down?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4164" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="880" RevisionGUID="76b44206-b218-4ead-9d3a-e7ae0f8960bd" CreationDate="2015-06-08T18:39:11.710" UserId="355" Comment="structure, clarification, making it more specific (only greek mythology)" Text="How formal was the creation/development of Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4165" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="880" RevisionGUID="76b44206-b218-4ead-9d3a-e7ae0f8960bd" CreationDate="2015-06-08T18:39:11.710" UserId="355" Comment="structure, clarification, making it more specific (only greek mythology)" Text="|greek|history|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4166" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="880" RevisionGUID="03efe329-1ecf-422d-82c2-1df729d53118" CreationDate="2015-06-08T18:44:47.917" UserId="355" Comment="added a small disclaimer" Text="How should one look at the creation/development of the Greek gods and the stories behind them.&#xD;&#xA;More specifically; I would like to know how (in)formal it was.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Let me explain I little more what I mean by &quot;formal&quot; or &quot;informal&quot;...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Formal:** Given the religious element of the stories, I could imagine that they were very &quot;official&quot;, implying that they were created in a relatively short time and by a relatively small group off people. Without many extentions or modifications afterwards.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Informal:** I could also imagine that the stories were more naturally develloped, like an on-going ad hoc collection of stories. A scenario where anyone could just make up a myth/god and where the popular ones got picked up and written down?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;May it be clair that the last two pieces of text are merely meaningfull as an attempt to further clarify my answer, and are by no means attempts to provide actual answers to the question." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4167" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="880" RevisionGUID="03efe329-1ecf-422d-82c2-1df729d53118" CreationDate="2015-06-08T18:44:47.917" UserId="355" Comment="added a small disclaimer" Text="How (in)formal was the creation/development of Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4168" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="888" RevisionGUID="01c6fb7a-74ac-4dd8-abd8-1cbc875b04b3" CreationDate="2015-06-08T19:04:25.007" UserId="42" Comment="added 69 characters in body" Text="The underwater panther is indeed a very widespread figure.  [Ancient Objects and Sacred Realms: Interpretations of Mississippian Iconography](https://books.google.com/books?id=HeDkqLlJNEIC&amp;pg=PA109#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false) has a section titled &quot;The Forms of the Underwater Powers&quot;, which gives brief descriptions of records of similar traditions from peoples spanning the Plains, Mississippi river, Great Lakes, and Southeastern United States.  The figure is referred to in different ways, sometimes a Great Serpent, or Underwater Panther, or others.  In common, though, it is a powerful being of the Underworld, usually has horns and combines qualities of multiple animals, and opposes the Thunderbird (or similar Overworld being).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To justify linking these traditions (Great Serpent and Underwater Panther), the author has this to say:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Although Western eyes might readily identify the two creatures as quite different species, the native view, rooted in shape-shifting and symbolic imagery, seems to find much less distinction between the two.  It appears, in fact, that the two quite different images would be better envisioned as the two ends of a pole, with various morphs possible between the extremes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Generally, the [Southeastern Ceremonial Complex](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeastern_Ceremonial_Complex) seems to be (very roughly) a reasonable fit, though I have seen some sources that [dispute the usefulness of that model](http://www.jstor.org/stable/40713375?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Southeastern Ceremonial Complex][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Among the particular peoples called out in the aforementioned book as having such a tradition:  Algonkian peoples (in general), Ojibwa, Illinois, Peoria, Shawnee,  Miami, Plains tribes (broadly), Mitchigamea, Menominee, Meskwaki (Fox), Cree, Sioux, Muskogee (Creek), Potawatomi, Dakota, Delaware, Mandan, Hidatsa, Arikara, Omaha, Ponca, Winnebago, Micmac, Passamaquoddy, and Penobscot.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While the tradition is very widespread, I don't believe it would be safe to say that it appears everywhere that Thunderbird myths occur.  For a counterexample, Thunderbird is a major figure in Pacific Northwest traditions, but to the best of my knowledge, Underwater Panther does *not* occur in that region.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ZgjTK.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4169" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="889" RevisionGUID="82107f72-c325-4846-9ad6-895e824eec05" CreationDate="2015-06-08T23:30:18.243" UserId="42" Text="Perhaps **the Graeae** bear mentioning.  The Graeae were 2-4 sisters who only had one eye (and one tooth) to share between them.  There is not any indication that means there was ever a loss of another 3-7 eyes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, Perseus stole their sole eye on his way to slay Medusa.  In the most well-known version of the myth today, the eye is then ransomed back to them for information.  However, is other versions of the myth, the eye was not returned, and Perseus merely took advantage of their blindness to pass by them:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [Hyginus Astronomica](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusAstronomica.html#12), the eye was not returned, but rather was cast into a nearby lake:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They are thought to have had but one eye among them, and thus to have kept guard, watch one taking it in her turn. This eye Perseus snatches, as one was passing it to another, and threw is in Lake Tritonis. So, when the guards were blinded, he easily killed the Gorgon when she was overcome with sleep. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And similar according to [Ovid's Metamorphoses](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D4%3Acard%3D706), while no mention of what became of the eye is given, it certainly doesn't seem to be returned to them:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There is a spot beneath cold Atlas, where in bulwarks of enormous strength, to guard its rocky entrance, dwelt two sisters, born of Phorcys. These were wont to share in turn a single eye between them: this by craft I got possession of, when one essayed to hand it to the other.—I put forth my hand and took it as it passed between: then, far, remote, through rocky pathless crags, over wild hills that bristled with great woods, I thence arrived to where the Gorgon dwelt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems that the Graeae were almost certainly immortal ([2/3 of their other siblings, the gorgons, were, anyway](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/361/why-was-medusa-the-only-mortal-of-the-gorgons)), but whether they fit your definition of &quot;gods&quot; I can only leave to your judgement." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4170" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="853" RevisionGUID="09a1c775-d83f-49c7-8d8d-fbfc7e8439c8" CreationDate="2015-06-09T00:38:19.557" UserId="188" Comment="Okay... I see why the answers were weird... I should have said &quot;Permenantly had an eye removed&quot;..." Text="Are there any other gods that were permenantly blinded in one eye, other than Odin?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4174" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="880" RevisionGUID="0216720d-a40e-4f69-ae1c-692eb2be0c7b" CreationDate="2015-06-09T01:09:18.473" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 4 characters in body" Text="How should one look at the creation/development of the Greek gods and the stories behind them.&#xD;&#xA;More specifically; I would like to know how (in)formal it was.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Let me explain a little more what I mean by &quot;formal&quot; or &quot;informal&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Formal:** Given the religious element of the stories, I could imagine that they were very &quot;official&quot;, implying that they were created in a relatively short time and by a relatively small group off people. Without many extentions or modifications afterwards.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Informal:** I could also imagine that the stories were more naturally develloped, like an on-going ad hoc collection of stories. A scenario where anyone could just make up a myth/god and where the popular ones got picked up and written down?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it be clear that the last two pieces of text are merely meaningful as an attempt to further clarify my answer, and are by no means attempts to provide actual answers to the question?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4175" PostHistoryTypeId="11" PostId="880" RevisionGUID="52d46a9a-5a26-405e-8c7e-2c38c5960587" CreationDate="2015-06-09T01:09:18.680" UserId="183" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:42,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;femtoRgon&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:79,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ero Sɘnnin&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:111,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;plannapus&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:183,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;HDE 226868&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="4176" PostHistoryTypeId="11" PostId="208" RevisionGUID="f080dee1-0836-422e-ab3a-e555c6958cf4" CreationDate="2015-06-09T01:09:52.493" UserId="183" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:51,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;kenorb&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:58,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Vixen Populi&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:42,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;femtoRgon&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:79,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ero Sɘnnin&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:183,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;HDE 226868&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="4180" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="891" RevisionGUID="b7232a4e-c687-4802-9328-5f3d86d94bdd" CreationDate="2015-06-09T10:56:51.600" UserId="151" Text="&gt; I could also imagine that the stories were more naturally develloped, like an on-going ad hoc collection of stories. A scenario where anyone could just make up a myth/god and where the popular ones got picked up and written down?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The time constants you are contemplating are way off , in my opinion. Long before written records gods and their histories were alive in the myths of the people. As comparative myths show, similar to common roots in indoeuropean language , common roots can be seen in the [religions of the indoeuropean races.][1]. Changes and growth would be slow and not out of  random creativity, but of religious needs as the environment changed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Before the advent of Christianity in the region gods from other regions were not rejected, viz the altar in Athens to the &quot;unknown god&quot;  which apostle Paul used to take off his proselytizing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even Christianity, a proselytizing religion, took a few centuries to become the main religion, and even then, a lot of the rites and god attributes were transferred to the new saints.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The religious stance of the hoi polloi started in the home and in childhood and was a continuous narrative which can be embellished and changed but much more slowly than you imagine. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A week ago I went to a memorial service in a  village of about 2000 people in Greece.  About two hundred people were following the liturgy, children and adults, to kiss the icons and genuflect,  and communion taken by some as young as 15 yrs old, before the memorial part started. Religious feelings are strong, and can be manipulated by apocalyptic religions, as the take of Christianity shows, but it is a time consuming process. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apocalyptic religions, like the laws of Moses, and Christianity, and the advent of Mohamed seem to be the province of the Semitic line of culture. They obviously address a part of the human psyche strongly, but there is no indication in the Greek mythological records that there was any apocalyptic  act that generated the narrative of Olympus etc. (apocalyptic with the original meaning, sudden appearance).&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_religion" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4182" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="880" RevisionGUID="6fed9109-31cb-4545-b4ec-fb19a9430446" CreationDate="2015-06-09T14:12:12.727" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="formal and informal makes no sense, changing to dynamic and static" Text="Did Greek mythology develop dynamically or statically? Let me explain a little more what I mean by &quot;dynamic&quot; and &quot;static&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Static:** Given the religious element of the stories, I could imagine that they were very &quot;official&quot;, implying that they were created in a relatively short time and by a relatively small group off people. Without many extensions or modifications afterwards.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Dynamic:** I could also imagine that the stories were more naturally developed, like an on-going ad hoc collection of stories. A scenario where anyone could just make up a myth/god and where the popular ones got picked up and written down?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Is it be clear that the last two pieces of text are merely meaningful as an attempt to further clarify my answer, and are by no means attempts to provide actual answers to the question?)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4183" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="880" RevisionGUID="6fed9109-31cb-4545-b4ec-fb19a9430446" CreationDate="2015-06-09T14:12:12.727" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="formal and informal makes no sense, changing to dynamic and static" Text="Was the development of Greek mythology dynamic or static?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4184" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="892" RevisionGUID="f00491d4-6798-444e-b5cb-063cde4e3e87" CreationDate="2015-06-09T18:05:16.303" UserId="10" Text="I was looking up some stuff and I saw a quote about Aphrodite's genealogy from [this page.](http://gogreece.about.com/cs/mythology/a/mythaphrodite.htm)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One genealogy gives her parents as Zeus, King of the Gods, and Dione, an early earth/mother goddess. More commonly, she was believed to be born of the foam in the sea which bubbled around the severed member of Ouranos when Kronos slew him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is very conflicting information. Where do these two different stories appear? Is one of these officially right? &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4185" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="892" RevisionGUID="f00491d4-6798-444e-b5cb-063cde4e3e87" CreationDate="2015-06-09T18:05:16.303" UserId="10" Text="Who were Aphrodite's parents?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4186" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="892" RevisionGUID="f00491d4-6798-444e-b5cb-063cde4e3e87" CreationDate="2015-06-09T18:05:16.303" UserId="10" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4187" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="893" RevisionGUID="e9e02cf1-f51b-47da-8edd-d8f011b59f44" CreationDate="2015-06-09T18:38:58.223" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4188" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="894" RevisionGUID="d6ee3150-502c-4b04-9b26-facac222b198" CreationDate="2015-06-09T18:38:58.223" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4189" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="895" RevisionGUID="9f09fe00-d6c9-4a6a-9803-0202bc57e683" CreationDate="2015-06-09T19:28:17.347" UserId="42" Text="The story of her being born from Ouranos severed member is from [Hesiod's Theogony](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D173):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And so soon as he had cut off the members with flint and cast them from the land into the surging sea, they were swept away over the main a long time: and a white foam spread around them from the immortal flesh, and in it there grew a maiden. First she drew near holy Cythera, and from there, afterwards, she came to sea-girt Cyprus, and came forth an awful and lovely goddess, and grass grew up about her beneath her shapely feet. Her gods and men call Aphrodite, and the foam-born goddess&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where her lineage from Zeus and Dione is presented in Homer's Illiad.  [Book 5](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.5.v.html) makes repeated reference to her parentage.  These segments, for instance, which refer to her father:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  I am only following your own instructions; you told me not to fight any of the blessed gods; but if Jove's daughter Venus came into battle I was to wound her with my spear.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And her mother:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But Venus flung herself on to the lap of her mother Dione, who threw her arms about her and caressed her...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4190" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="895" RevisionGUID="a8eb1289-a7cd-4c4a-aca7-6777f6ff92f0" CreationDate="2015-06-09T19:38:23.877" UserId="42" Comment="added 507 characters in body" Text="The story of her being born from Ouranos severed member is from [Hesiod's Theogony](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D173):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And so soon as he had cut off the members with flint and cast them from the land into the surging sea, they were swept away over the main a long time: and a white foam spread around them from the immortal flesh, and in it there grew a maiden. First she drew near holy Cythera, and from there, afterwards, she came to sea-girt Cyprus, and came forth an awful and lovely goddess, and grass grew up about her beneath her shapely feet. Her gods and men call Aphrodite, and the foam-born goddess&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where her lineage from Zeus and Dione is presented in Homer's Illiad.  [Book 5](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.5.v.html) makes repeated reference to her parentage.  These segments, for instance, which refer to her father:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  I am only following your own instructions; you told me not to fight any of the blessed gods; but if Jove's daughter Venus came into battle I was to wound her with my spear.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And her mother:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But Venus flung herself on to the lap of her mother Dione, who threw her arms about her and caressed her...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [Plato's Symposium](https://books.google.com/books?id=-j-GaDjLdhYC&amp;pg=PA12), these actually represent two different entities: Aphrodite Ourania (&quot;heavenly&quot;) and Aphrodite Pandemos (&quot;common&quot;):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One, older obviously, is the daughter of Uranus and had no mother, and we call her &quot;Heavenly Aphrodite&quot;; the younger is the child of Zeus and Dione and we call her &quot;Common Aphrodite&quot;.  It follows then that the Love who works with the latter Aphrodite should correctly be called &quot;Common Love&quot; and the other &quot;Heavenly Love&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4195" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="894" RevisionGUID="98aeafb7-534e-401e-a758-fca0ebe281da" CreationDate="2015-06-10T02:03:59.723" UserId="53" Comment="added 73 characters in body" Text="For questions regarding the mythology of the Maori people of New Zealand." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4196" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="894" RevisionGUID="98aeafb7-534e-401e-a758-fca0ebe281da" CreationDate="2015-06-10T02:03:59.723" Comment="Proposed by 53 approved by 42, 183 edit id of 209" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4202" PostHistoryTypeId="7" PostId="853" RevisionGUID="3c6c94a1-63d5-4735-8234-b27ea20113c9" CreationDate="2015-06-10T15:24:27.637" UserId="188" Comment="Rollback to [7b96f3b1-f9b9-40c2-ac11-016cee694648]" Text="Are there any other gods that permenantly lost an eye, other than Odin?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4203" PostHistoryTypeId="7" PostId="853" RevisionGUID="695a3c79-6d77-4cb6-a220-182d870a6d2d" CreationDate="2015-06-10T15:24:46.287" UserId="188" Comment="Rollback to [6c34fc89-1c8c-4fc2-a824-b197744b8f97]" Text="Are there any other gods that permanently lost an eye, other than Odin?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4204" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="898" RevisionGUID="6d196501-ac48-48fa-8c28-98d4d5887d5f" CreationDate="2015-06-10T16:12:04.810" UserId="419" Text="Many cultures have a flood myth. Is any one aware of any myth having to do with the last glacial period? Or do all mythologies start when the ice has melted and caused wide spread flooding?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4205" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="898" RevisionGUID="6d196501-ac48-48fa-8c28-98d4d5887d5f" CreationDate="2015-06-10T16:12:04.810" UserId="419" Text="The Last Glacial Period in Myth" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4206" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="898" RevisionGUID="6d196501-ac48-48fa-8c28-98d4d5887d5f" CreationDate="2015-06-10T16:12:04.810" UserId="419" Text="|flood-myth|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4210" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="430" RevisionGUID="492fa4dc-ab1d-4127-82f1-420738c1dcc6" CreationDate="2015-06-10T17:25:54.290" UserId="183" Comment="5" />
  <row Id="4211" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="861" RevisionGUID="a5fb5558-f519-48c0-b5ff-b10e7b8bce4c" CreationDate="2015-06-10T17:30:08.137" UserId="-1" Comment="takes up less space" Text="I've been doing some research into Quetzalcoatl, and one of the surprising things about him is that Mormons think he is Christ (Mormons believe Christ visited America, and that the story of Quetzalcoatl is actually a corrupted version of the story of Christ).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Book of Mormon is a sacred, ancient American document recorded by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; writers as the events unfolded, starting more than two thousand years&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ago... Ancient American texts written by native Americans support this origin... Ancient American literature contains references to a white, bearded&#xD;&#xA;&gt; god who descended out of the heavens. He is called by many names; one&#xD;&#xA;&gt; example is Quetzalcoatl.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([The Book of Mormon: A Sacred Ancient Record](https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1995/10/the-book-of-mormon-a-sacred-ancient-record?lang=eng))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is this?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4212" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="861" RevisionGUID="a5fb5558-f519-48c0-b5ff-b10e7b8bce4c" CreationDate="2015-06-10T17:30:08.137" Comment="Proposed by anonymous approved by 62 edit id of 210" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4218" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="899" RevisionGUID="c23c4d7e-0d64-46be-aada-664856a18021" CreationDate="2015-06-10T21:58:35.933" UserId="183" Text="The [Rígsþula](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%ADgs%C3%BEula) (found [here](http://www.archive.org/stream/elderorpoeticedd01brayuoft#page/216/mode/2up)) ends with a crow giving ominous council to Kon(r), son or Jarl, son of Rígr. The crow seems to urge him to fight Dan and Damp (also spelled &quot;Danp&quot;), supposedly Danish kings. On that note, the poem abruptly ends.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, as suggested by the Skjöldungasaga and the Ynglinga saga, descendants of Rígr married into the ruling families of Denmark, and thus took control.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These are said to be the only tales of Rígr, but I would think that Dan/Danp show up somewhere else, possibly as genuine historical figures, and there might be a mention of Konr, given that his name led to the term *konungr*, meaning &quot;king&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In any other sources, is a mention of Konr associated with a peaceful transition of power or a violent one, involving battles (as the crow advised)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4219" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="899" RevisionGUID="c23c4d7e-0d64-46be-aada-664856a18021" CreationDate="2015-06-10T21:58:35.933" UserId="183" Text="Was the transition of the descendants of Rígr into the family of Dan a peaceful one or a violent one?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4220" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="899" RevisionGUID="c23c4d7e-0d64-46be-aada-664856a18021" CreationDate="2015-06-10T21:58:35.933" UserId="183" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4226" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="902" RevisionGUID="107eb7eb-a9b4-40ef-bdd5-6da4946d8775" CreationDate="2015-06-11T02:15:24.893" UserId="421" Text="In Sophocles' *Electra*, it is revealed at the end that one of the guards there is Electra's long lost brother. What is the name of this guard? I have looked for it online, and in the book he is referred to by his title." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4227" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="902" RevisionGUID="107eb7eb-a9b4-40ef-bdd5-6da4946d8775" CreationDate="2015-06-11T02:15:24.893" UserId="421" Text="Name of Electra's brother" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4228" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="902" RevisionGUID="107eb7eb-a9b4-40ef-bdd5-6da4946d8775" CreationDate="2015-06-11T02:15:24.893" UserId="421" Text="|family-tree|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4232" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="903" RevisionGUID="c8039beb-98ed-47e5-a32f-33e08969618d" CreationDate="2015-06-11T19:35:53.013" UserId="161" Text="Definitely dynamic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Burkert's &quot;Graechische Religion...&quot; (Intro/2: sources), we can find the following reasons:&#xD;&#xA; - as there were no holy scriptures there was no &quot;canon&quot; whatsoever to tell apart &quot;canonical&quot; myths from &quot;non-canonical&quot; &#xD;&#xA; - myths were continuously being rewritten, as poets were composing new hymns to the gods for celebrations or contests.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In &quot;Elliniki Mythologia&quot; (edited by Ekdotiki Athinon) there is a description of the process of myth creation (pg.24-26) and, while to big to transcript here, its main points is that, at first, myths were created by the people from fairy-tale-like stories that they were telling the children and, then, it passed on to the poets. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Plus, it definitely says on pg.26:&quot;so, greek myths were processed and reprocessed for approximately 1,500 years&quot;." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4233" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="904" RevisionGUID="6a5ee18b-37ea-4643-8896-89841b5d122f" CreationDate="2015-06-11T22:02:56.833" UserId="398" Text="While the passage in question is unreadable through Google Books, I fear you've just misunderstood the translation. This is the part, right?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0188%3Acard%3D1339&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That's not her brother. She has but one brother, Orestes, and the &quot;guardian&quot; is actually the pedagogue (paidagōgos)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4234" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="905" RevisionGUID="a59ac841-78a6-42c6-9c4b-97bfa441b513" CreationDate="2015-06-12T01:19:36.400" UserId="292" Text="I know someone else is going to come along behind me who knows a whole lot more about Denmark, but I think Rigsthula is more about establishing the social order than any real kings, or ancestors of them. However, [this paper][1] might help you out.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/alvismal/10rigr.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4236" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="152" RevisionGUID="ba303bc0-fb91-47ad-ac6e-22ef48f9bd9a" CreationDate="2015-06-12T02:08:19.403" UserId="123" Comment="edit from comments" Text="I believe it may be the Tritons, but there are probably other part-fish, part-humans. Plus, there was a fish-headed god in antiquity (not greco-roman).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A side note is that there were some mistranslations and some of the &quot;sirens&quot; in Greek tales were half-birds and not half-fish (i.e., harpies and not mermaids).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://www.crystalinks.com/sirens.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;In Greek mythology, the Sirens were three dangerous bird-women, portrayed as seductresses who lured nearby sailors with their enchanting music and voices to shipwreck on the rocky coast of their island. Roman poets placed them on an island called Sirenum scopuli. In some later, rationalized traditions, the literal geography of the &quot;flowery&quot; island of Anthemoessa, or Anthemusa, is fixed: sometimes on Cape Pelorum and at others in the islands known as the Sirenuse, near Paestum, or in Capreae. All such locations were surrounded by cliffs and rocks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;When the Sirens were given a parentage they were considered the daughters of the river god Achelous, fathered upon Terpsichore, Melpomene, Sterope, or Chthon (the Earth; in Euripides' Helen 167, Helen in her anguish calls upon &quot;Winged maidens, daughters of the Earth&quot;). Although they lured mariners, for the Greeks the Sirens in their &quot;meadow starred with flowers&quot; were not sea deities. Roman writers linked the Sirens more closely to the sea, as daughters of Phorcys.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Their number is variously reported as between two and five. In the Odyssey, Homer says nothing of their origin or names, but gives the number of the Sirens as two. Later writers mention both their names and number: some state that there were three, Peisinoe, Aglaope, and Thelxiepeia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Sirens of Greek mythology are sometimes portrayed in later folklore as fully aquatic and mermaid-like; the facts that in Spanish, French, Italian, Polish, Romanian and Portuguese the word for mermaid is respectively Sirena, Sirene, Sirena, Syrena, Sirena and Sereia, and that in biology the Sirenia comprise an order of fully aquatic mammals that includes the dugong and manatee, add to the visual confusion, so that Sirens are even represented as mermaids. However, &quot;the sirens, though they sing to mariners, are not sea-maidens,&quot; Harrison had cautioned; &quot;they dwell on an island in a flowery meadow.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;EDIT from comments&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Plus, there was a fish-headed god in antiquity (not greco-roman) could you name him/her? From which mythology is he/she from? –  plannapus May 11 at 9:46&#xD;&#xA;1	 	&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are several, the most famous is Dagon: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Dagon was originally an East Semitic Mesopotamian (Akkadian, Assyrian, Babylonian) fertility god who evolved into a major Northwest Semitic god, reportedly of grain (as symbol of fertility) and fish and/or fishing (as symbol of multiplying).&quot;&#xD;&#xA; 	&#xD;&#xA;There are also fish-headed fertility figures, like: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;The anthropomorphic female sculpture (known as Praroditeljka / Ancestress) found in the front of the sanctuary in house No. XLIV at Lepenski Vir has a large &quot;fish-like&quot; head, collar-bones and clawed hands that appear to be opening up her vulva, in a very similar way to that of European Sheela-Na-Gigs figures.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://ancientcraft.co.uk/reenactment/pa_lepenski_vir.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4237" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="152" RevisionGUID="9621678d-0490-4bd8-901c-ae776ff62837" CreationDate="2015-06-12T02:21:27.597" UserId="123" Comment="added" Text="I believe it may be the Tritons, but there are probably other part-fish, part-humans. Plus, there was a fish-headed god in antiquity (not greco-roman).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A side note is that there were some mistranslations and some of the &quot;sirens&quot; in Greek tales were half-birds and not half-fish (i.e., harpies and not mermaids).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://www.crystalinks.com/sirens.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;In Greek mythology, the Sirens were three dangerous bird-women, portrayed as seductresses who lured nearby sailors with their enchanting music and voices to shipwreck on the rocky coast of their island. Roman poets placed them on an island called Sirenum scopuli. In some later, rationalized traditions, the literal geography of the &quot;flowery&quot; island of Anthemoessa, or Anthemusa, is fixed: sometimes on Cape Pelorum and at others in the islands known as the Sirenuse, near Paestum, or in Capreae. All such locations were surrounded by cliffs and rocks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;When the Sirens were given a parentage they were considered the daughters of the river god Achelous, fathered upon Terpsichore, Melpomene, Sterope, or Chthon (the Earth; in Euripides' Helen 167, Helen in her anguish calls upon &quot;Winged maidens, daughters of the Earth&quot;). Although they lured mariners, for the Greeks the Sirens in their &quot;meadow starred with flowers&quot; were not sea deities. Roman writers linked the Sirens more closely to the sea, as daughters of Phorcys.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Their number is variously reported as between two and five. In the Odyssey, Homer says nothing of their origin or names, but gives the number of the Sirens as two. Later writers mention both their names and number: some state that there were three, Peisinoe, Aglaope, and Thelxiepeia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Sirens of Greek mythology are sometimes portrayed in later folklore as fully aquatic and mermaid-like; the facts that in Spanish, French, Italian, Polish, Romanian and Portuguese the word for mermaid is respectively Sirena, Sirene, Sirena, Syrena, Sirena and Sereia, and that in biology the Sirenia comprise an order of fully aquatic mammals that includes the dugong and manatee, add to the visual confusion, so that Sirens are even represented as mermaids. However, &quot;the sirens, though they sing to mariners, are not sea-maidens,&quot; Harrison had cautioned; &quot;they dwell on an island in a flowery meadow.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;EDIT from comments&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Plus, there was a fish-headed god in antiquity (not greco-roman) could you name him/her? From which mythology is he/she from? –  plannapus May 11 at 9:46&#xD;&#xA;1	 	&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are several, the most famous is Dagon: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Dagon was originally an East Semitic Mesopotamian (Akkadian, Assyrian, Babylonian) fertility god who evolved into a major Northwest Semitic god, reportedly of grain (as symbol of fertility) and fish and/or fishing (as symbol of multiplying).&quot;&#xD;&#xA; 	&#xD;&#xA;There are also fish-headed fertility figures, like: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;The anthropomorphic female sculpture (known as Praroditeljka / Ancestress) found in the front of the sanctuary in house No. XLIV at Lepenski Vir has a large &quot;fish-like&quot; head, collar-bones and clawed hands that appear to be opening up her vulva, in a very similar way to that of European Sheela-Na-Gigs figures.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://ancientcraft.co.uk/reenactment/pa_lepenski_vir.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  The original Question asked &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;What creatures are they referring to?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If it is a non-mythological creature, it may be based on real anthropomorphic fishes like the monk/clerc fish or the &quot;*cardinal*&quot; fish, the ***poisson évèque*** which was described by 16th century French naturalists   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://www.paranormal-encyclopedie.com/wiki/Articles/Poisson_%C3%A9v%C3%AAque&#xD;&#xA;http://expositions.bnf.fr/lamer/arret/merveill1.htm&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(site in French)&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4238" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="906" RevisionGUID="47f25e58-5781-4680-bf51-8f6e3de9032b" CreationDate="2015-06-12T04:33:14.807" UserId="398" Text="Nereus was a fish-tailed deity: http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Nereus.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4240" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="902" RevisionGUID="7769270b-881a-4d22-be28-01630284e7b4" CreationDate="2015-06-12T08:53:19.630" UserId="57" Comment="added tags; edited tags" Text="|greek|sophocles|tragedy|atreidai|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4241" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="464" RevisionGUID="d00c7f07-3ffa-448e-9fbc-c6357377b1a8" CreationDate="2015-06-12T08:56:16.893" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags; edited tags" Text="|greek|sophocles|tragedy|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4242" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="907" RevisionGUID="4a4eac37-def6-49f6-9d6a-114114761c82" CreationDate="2015-06-12T09:00:29.970" UserId="57" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4243" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="908" RevisionGUID="0c4ac74f-d064-49fc-8db2-11b879562df0" CreationDate="2015-06-12T09:00:29.970" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 39 characters in body" Text="Questions about the descendants of Atreus, which include Tantalus, Pelops, Agamemnon, Menelaus, Orestes, Iphigenia and Electra." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4245" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="909" RevisionGUID="9d5a3254-902b-4a74-bf2e-10b7e6a17b00" CreationDate="2015-06-12T13:09:18.140" UserId="430" Text="According to a poem by MacLeigh which can be found and discussed in the Annuals of the Four Masters&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They  fled to Connaught and having seized power in the 1st century ruled there until the 3rd century, when Aodh son of Garadh King of Connaught and last king of the Fir Bolg was defeated by Cormac king of Ireland.  &#xD;&#xA;The Fir Bolg never had any power in Ireland following this and were reduced to peasants of which a great many are still (as of 1499) considered to be of Fir Bolg origin. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From The Annals of Ireland Translated from the Original Irish of the Four Masters by Owen Connellan - Reign of Henry VII&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So it would seem they became the lower rungs of society and could assume they are eventually assimilated into &quot;the irish people&quot; through marriage etc&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4246" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="909" RevisionGUID="c2ce670a-5e2d-4bf9-9322-7cc21910e213" CreationDate="2015-06-12T13:17:49.147" UserId="430" Comment="Added that power was taken from Milesians" Text="According to a poem by MacLeigh which can be found and discussed in the Annuals of the Four Masters&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They  fled to Connaught and having seized power from the Milesians in the 1st century ruled there until the 3rd century, when Aodh son of Garadh King of Connaught and last king of the Fir Bolg was defeated by Cormac king of Ireland.  &#xD;&#xA;The Fir Bolg never had any power in Ireland following this and were reduced to peasants of which a great many are still (as of 1499) considered to be of Fir Bolg origin. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From The Annals of Ireland Translated from the Original Irish of the Four Masters by Owen Connellan - Reign of Henry VII&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So it would seem they became the lower rungs of society and could assume they are eventually assimilated into &quot;the irish people&quot; through marriage etc&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4247" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="910" RevisionGUID="336a033d-53be-4ad7-805b-8e5275e0e673" CreationDate="2015-06-12T16:02:38.883" UserId="398" Text="Since Sophocles wrote first, his account is perhaps the &quot;most canonical&quot;; it seems not even the *Oedipodea* mentions Antigone's actions (as Gantz attests). However, ancient Greeks didn't really think of mythological accounts in terms of &quot;canonicity&quot; until very late. Playwrights were free to change the narrative at will and often did so.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For us, since Sophocles' *Antigone* is so well known, that has become canonical to us." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4249" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="911" RevisionGUID="09535ec5-778d-4417-8c74-cac70d5d358f" CreationDate="2015-06-12T17:25:20.510" UserId="42" Text="According to legend (particularly [Luo Guanzhong's &quot;Romance of the Three Kingdoms&quot;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fictitious_stories_in_Romance_of_the_Three_Kingdoms#Three_visits_to_the_thatched_cottage)), after Liu Bei pays three visits to the remote thatched cottage of the strategist Zhuge Liang (Kongming), he agrees to join him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He is touted and one of the greatest strategists and referred to as the sleeping (or perhaps, hidden) dragon.  He is personally recommended by established strategists Sima Hui and Xu Shu.  Upon Liu Bei asking that he be invited to meet, Liu Bei is told he will have to go in person to to meet the strategist, and he then warrants three personal visitations from Liu Bei at his remote cottage.  With all that, he certainly seems to have established quite a reputation, and this is well before the events he is best known for, which were is service to Liu Bei.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How did he establish this reputation?  He seemed to be leading the simple life of a farmer, when he was approached.  Were there previous campaigns he had been involved in?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4250" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="911" RevisionGUID="09535ec5-778d-4417-8c74-cac70d5d358f" CreationDate="2015-06-12T17:25:20.510" UserId="42" Text="How was the reputation of Zhuge Liang established, before joining Liu Bei?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4251" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="911" RevisionGUID="09535ec5-778d-4417-8c74-cac70d5d358f" CreationDate="2015-06-12T17:25:20.510" UserId="42" Text="|chinese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4252" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="713" RevisionGUID="4b03db13-7fce-422f-8628-c61163554177" CreationDate="2015-06-12T21:22:51.103" UserId="42" Comment="deleted 17 characters in body" Text="The Descent of Inanna (Ishtar) was unearthed from 1889 - 1900, but as far as I can tell, it wasn't really considered that well reconstructed until around the 1940s or later.  Early published versions were based on less complete information, and had to make assumptions that turned out incorrect, especially with regards to Dumuzi's (Tammuz) role in the story (See: Kramer's explanation of the decipherment in [this print version](http://www.amazon.com/Inanna-Queen-Heaven-Earth-Stories/dp/0060908548), and also [&quot;Tammuz and the Bible&quot;](http://www.jstor.org/stable/3265029)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I will be using [Wolkstein and Kramer's translation](http://www.amazon.com/Inanna-Queen-Heaven-Earth-Stories/dp/0060908548) of the text, published in 1983.  Both because it's excellent and well-explained, and because it's the one sitting on my desk.  [Full text here.](http://people.uncw.edu/deagona/myth/Descent%20Of%20Inanna.pdf)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, we could take Inanna (Ishtar) at her word.  Her overt reason is given:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Inanna answered:  &#xD;&#xA;&quot;Because . . . of my older sister, Ereshkigal,  &#xD;&#xA;Her husband, Gugulanna, the Bull of Heaven, has died.  &#xD;&#xA;I have come to witness the funeral rites.  &#xD;&#xA;Let the beer of his funeral rites be poured into the cup.  &#xD;&#xA;Let it be done.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That, however, is just the excuse she gives at the gate.  It doesn't seem likely this is her real reason for the trip.  More likely the real reason is shown here:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; From the Great Above she opened her ear to the Great Below.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; From the Great Above the goddess opened her ear to the Great Below.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; From the Great Above Inanna opened her ear to the Great Below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which gives us the hint that she has heard the Great Below, the underworld, in some way.  Wolkstein's explanations, however, give us more to go on:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Inanna is the Queen of Heaven and Earth, but she does not know the underworld.  Until her ear opens to the Great Below, her understanding is necessarily limited.  In Sumerian, the word for ear and wisdom is the same ... In order to fully appreciate or &quot;know&quot;  what is said or meant, a great understanding is needed - an understanding of all things.  It is the Great Below, and knowledge of death and rebirth, life and stasis, that will make Inanna an &quot;Honored Counselor&quot; and a guide to the land.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So Inanna, already powerful and knowledgeable of Heaven and Earth, needs to acquire knowledge of death and the underworld to be complete in her wisdom.  This is further supported later, from the statement of Enlil, when hearing that Inanna has not returned from the underworld:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;My daughter craved the Great Above.  &#xD;&#xA;Inanna craved the Great Below.  &#xD;&#xA;She who receives the *me* of the underworld does not return.  &#xD;&#xA;She who goes to the Dark City stays there.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here Enlil (and later, Nanna, in an identical statement) states that Inanna has gone seeking the *me* of the underworld.  [*me* is a tricky word](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/726/what-is-the-meaning-of-the-word-me-in-the-descent-of-inanna) that most translators refuse to translate, and too much can be said about it to address completely here.  Suffice to say, the *me* represent knowledge and wisdom.  So, the gods know that she has gone seeking that knowledge that can only be gained in the underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To go just one more step, a *very popular* interpretation of the text is through a Jungian lens.  Just to hit the main points very briefly.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The goal of gaining wisdom of the underworld, to complement the wisdom of the heavens and of the earth, speaks of Inanna becoming complete, but this interpretation views it, instead of her completing her body of knowledge, she is completing herself, developing into a *whole* person (goddess).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this light, we see Inanna and her sister Ereshkigal as part of the same whole person.  In order to become complete, Inanna must become vulnerable, and face the dark side of herself (Ereshkigal), die and be reborn.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Inanna abandons her temples on the way to the underworld, and has to leave her crown, robe and other vestments (also *me*. Like I said, complicated) at the gates of the underworld.  She arrives naked, powerless and vulnerable.  The death and rebirth are fairly clear to be read, but of particular interest is that after Inanna's death, and preparing for rebirth, Ereshkigal is in pain &quot;With the cries of a woman about to give birth.&quot;  Which does rather speak to the interpretation of being reborn from her darker half." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4253" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="911" RevisionGUID="746941af-c944-43a2-b736-b941b24f1161" CreationDate="2015-06-12T21:30:13.857" UserId="42" Comment="added 7 characters in body" Text="According to legend (particularly [Luo Guanzhong's &quot;Romance of the Three Kingdoms&quot;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fictitious_stories_in_Romance_of_the_Three_Kingdoms#Three_visits_to_the_thatched_cottage)), after Liu Bei pays three visits to the remote thatched cottage of the strategist Zhuge Liang (Kongming), he agrees to join him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zhuge Liang is touted as among the greatest strategists and referred to as the sleeping (or hidden) dragon.  He is personally recommended by established strategists Sima Hui and Xu Shu.  Upon Liu Bei asking that he be invited to meet, Liu Bei is told he will have to go in person to to meet the strategist, instead, and he then warrants three personal visitations from Liu Bei at his remote cottage.  With all that, he certainly seems to have established quite a reputation, and this is well before the events he is best known for, which were in service to Liu Bei.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How did he establish this reputation?  He seemed to be leading the simple life of a farmer, when he was approached.  Were there previous campaigns he had been involved in?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4254" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="912" RevisionGUID="1a4e3394-0811-411c-9541-eb66b41f5f22" CreationDate="2015-06-12T22:18:58.500" UserId="431" Text="In [The Wicker Man (1973)][1], the Mayday procession is headed by three masked characters:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    Their cast includes many alarming characters:&#xD;&#xA;    A man-animal, or hobbyhorse,&#xD;&#xA;    who canters at the head of the&#xD;&#xA;    procession charging at the girls;&#xD;&#xA;    A man-woman, the sinister teaser,&#xD;&#xA;    played by the community leader or priest;&#xD;&#xA;    And a man-fool, Punch,&#xD;&#xA;    most complex of all the symbolic figures -&#xD;&#xA;    the privileged simpleton and king for a day.&#xD;&#xA;    Six swordsmen follow these figures...&#xD;&#xA;    and at the climax of the ceremony&#xD;&#xA;    lock their swords together...&#xD;&#xA;    In a clear symbol of the Sun.&#xD;&#xA;    In pagan times, however, these dances&#xD;&#xA;    were not simply picturesque jigs.&#xD;&#xA;    They were frenzied rites ending in a sacrifice&#xD;&#xA;    by which the dancers hoped desperately&#xD;&#xA;    to win over the goddess of the fields.&#xD;&#xA;    In good times, they offered produce&#xD;&#xA;    to the gods and slaughtered animals,&#xD;&#xA;    but in bad years, when the harvest had been poor,&#xD;&#xA;    the sacrifice was a human being.&#xD;&#xA;    In some cultures, it would be the king himself.&#xD;&#xA;    In others, the most beloved virgin.&#xD;&#xA;    Very often he or she would be kept hidden&#xD;&#xA;    for months preceding the ceremony,&#xD;&#xA;    just as the Sun is hidden&#xD;&#xA;    from the Earth in winter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would like to know if these are real characters from the Celtic mythology or they were just made up for the movie.  If yes, what is the symbolic meaning of those characters beyond what was said in the movie?&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070917/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/FL8XK.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4255" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="912" RevisionGUID="1a4e3394-0811-411c-9541-eb66b41f5f22" CreationDate="2015-06-12T22:18:58.500" UserId="431" Text="Symbolism of three characters leading Mayday ritual in The Wicker Man (1973)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4256" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="912" RevisionGUID="1a4e3394-0811-411c-9541-eb66b41f5f22" CreationDate="2015-06-12T22:18:58.500" UserId="431" Text="|celtic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4257" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="912" RevisionGUID="5d1e8f10-d6fd-49b3-93c2-b30fc62f4e95" CreationDate="2015-06-12T22:24:32.980" UserId="431" Comment="added 30 characters in body" Text="In [The Wicker Man (1973)][1], the Mayday procession is headed by three masked characters:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    Their cast includes many alarming characters:&#xD;&#xA;    A man-animal, or hobbyhorse,&#xD;&#xA;    who canters at the head of the&#xD;&#xA;    procession charging at the girls;&#xD;&#xA;    A man-woman, the sinister teaser,&#xD;&#xA;    played by the community leader or priest;&#xD;&#xA;    And a man-fool, Punch,&#xD;&#xA;    most complex of all the symbolic figures -&#xD;&#xA;    the privileged simpleton and king for a day.&#xD;&#xA;    Six swordsmen follow these figures...&#xD;&#xA;    and at the climax of the ceremony&#xD;&#xA;    lock their swords together...&#xD;&#xA;    In a clear symbol of the Sun.&#xD;&#xA;    In pagan times, however, these dances&#xD;&#xA;    were not simply picturesque jigs.&#xD;&#xA;    They were frenzied rites ending in a sacrifice&#xD;&#xA;    by which the dancers hoped desperately&#xD;&#xA;    to win over the goddess of the fields.&#xD;&#xA;    In good times, they offered produce&#xD;&#xA;    to the gods and slaughtered animals,&#xD;&#xA;    but in bad years, when the harvest had been poor,&#xD;&#xA;    the sacrifice was a human being.&#xD;&#xA;    In some cultures, it would be the king himself.&#xD;&#xA;    In others, the most beloved virgin.&#xD;&#xA;    Very often he or she would be kept hidden&#xD;&#xA;    for months preceding the ceremony,&#xD;&#xA;    just as the Sun is hidden&#xD;&#xA;    from the Earth in winter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would like to know if these are real characters from the Celtic mythology or they were just made up for the movie.  If yes, do they have formal names and what is the symbolic meaning of those characters beyond what was said in the movie?&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070917/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/FL8XK.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4258" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="913" RevisionGUID="3594c5bf-4957-4b34-a646-1171f6b1f740" CreationDate="2015-06-12T22:29:33.737" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="Sahagún's Codex Florentine includes an account of people sacrificed for [Tezcatlipoca][1] (an Aztec god):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For him who was thus, who had no flaw, who had no bodily defects, who had no blemish, who had no mark, who had no warts, no small tumor; the greatest care was taken that he be taught to blow the flute and whistle. He would hold flowers and his smoking tube. At the same time he would go playing the flute, he would go sucking the smoking tube, he would go smelling the flowers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Stocker, Terry, [The Aztec Trickster On Display][2]. Note that &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is significant is that the person, before he dies, breaks the flutes that he played while he was alive:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When he arrived where he was to die, a small temple called Tlacochcalco stood, he ascended by himself of his own free will. Climbing the steps, he shattered his flutes and whistles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the purpose of breaking the flutes?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's a picture of the event (originally from Sahagún's Codex Florentine — the same source as the written account) taken from [Mexilore.Co.Uk][3]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Picture of the breaking of the flutes from Sahagún's Codex Florentine][4]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.azteccalendar.com/god/tezcatlipoca.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.trinity.edu/org/tricksters/trixway/current/Vol%201/Vol%201_1/Tstocker.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/music/music-song-and-dance-among-the-aztecs-a-short-introduction&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/F7H7r.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4259" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="913" RevisionGUID="3594c5bf-4957-4b34-a646-1171f6b1f740" CreationDate="2015-06-12T22:29:33.737" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="Why do sacrificial victims break flutes on the steps of a temple before their death?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4260" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="913" RevisionGUID="3594c5bf-4957-4b34-a646-1171f6b1f740" CreationDate="2015-06-12T22:29:33.737" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="|aztec|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4261" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="914" RevisionGUID="c0d3a5bd-a489-4d26-a155-9412c8ddd840" CreationDate="2015-06-12T22:29:33.737" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="Music [plays a huge role in Aztec (and other central American) cultures][1]. As such, its meaning is complex, and a lot has been written about both Aztec music in general and the specific meaning of the breaking of the flutes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most basic interpretation is that the breaking of the flutes simply represents the death of the sacrificial victim/avatar of the god on earth:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; What then do the flutes, flute playing, and the physical breaking of the flutes by the player himself signify? Not only is a painful death the end of the happiness of earth, but the flute also symbolizes all that is humanly and spiritually powerful, as Carrasco explains: &quot;The sound of the flute, as with the word, depends on the exhalation of the breath or, in Nahua thought, the soul.&quot; Therefore, the soul of the sacrificial victim who represented the &quot;god of gods&quot; is forever lost with his death and by his own breaking of the flutes that represented his soul.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Olsen, Dale A., [World Flutelore: Folktales, Myths, and Other Stories of Magical Flute Power][2].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is further supported by the fact that flutes were a metaphor for flowers, meaning that the act of breaking the flute was analogous to picking a flower (i.e. killing them, but preserving their &quot;essence&quot; like preserving a flower in a vase):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Furthermore, the particular Aztec ceramic duct flute... performed by the young impersonator of Tezcatlipoca is called a &quot;flower flute&quot; because it has a flared distal end that represents a flower blossom. Furthermore, the flower... symbolizes beauty, blood offering, and music, according to Arnd Adje Both:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&gt; Indeed, the heart of a deity impersonator itself was compared to a flower, metaphorically &quot;plucked&quot; and offered in ritual human sacrifice. Analogously the impersonator &quot;plucked&quot; the flutes before his own death, as symbolized in breaking the bells from the tube over the stairway and leaving them as undamaged as possible. This act of ritual destruction is clearly evident by organological data and could be interpreted as a process of transformation into the spiritual realm.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Olsen][3]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here are some pictures of the flower shaped flutes used in the ritual (from [Arnd Adje Both's fantastic pdf about the instruments][5]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Drawings of Aztec flutes.][4]][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Aztec flute playing posture.][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another interpretation focuses on the use of music to communicate with the gods. In fact:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Some musical instruments were considered to be sounding idols, indicating that ritual music could be perceived as a voice of the gods, and that the Aztec instrumentalist fulfilled the role of an expert mediator through whom a god sang. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Both, Arnd Adje, [Aztec Music Culture][7].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The importance of music is further emphasized by the myths that discuss the origin of music. In Central American myths, music is stolen from gods (often with the help of Tezcatlipoca, and gives humans the power to communicate with the spiritual realm:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; An interesting myth... related that originally music was the property of the sun. After the sacrifice of the gods in Teotihuacan, men gathered their remains and made sacred bundles out of them, but they did not know how to adore them. Tezcatlipoca created Ehecatl (Wind), whom he entrusted with the task of going to the house of the sun to bring the musicians there to the earth. Water goddesses, the nieces of Tezcatlipoca, build a bridge [sic] so that Ehecatl could reach the abode of the sun. The musicians were warned not to answer the intruder with the &quot;mellifluous song,&quot; but in spite of these warnings, one of the musicians succumbed to the charm of the song and followed the envoy of Tezcatlipoca. That was the origin of music and prayers on the earth, thanks to which men could adore the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the Popol Vuh, the noise of the ball game provokes the ire of the underworld masters of Xibalba; several modern myths give the same function to the song and music played by the hero... Thus the noise from the ball game, smoke, and music all have parallel functions. They manifest the acquisition of cultural goods, which constitute a king of usurpation of the power of the creator gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Oliver, Guilhem, [The Hidden King and the Broken Flutes: the Mythical and Royal Dimension of Tezcatlipoca's Feast in Toxcatl][8].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is also supported by the Aztec connection between flowers and music (which we've previously discussed when comparing the shape of the flutes to flowers). The scent of flowers and the sound of music are analogous in Aztec culture, as both allow humans to communicate with their deities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Aztec concept of music as a “flowery song” is reflected in the calyx-shape of the flower-flute. To play it allows to visualize the metaphorical link between sound and the scent of blossoms, both regarded as sacrificial gifts functioning as a means of communication with the spiritual realm, probably because of their invisible sensual quality. That the ruler was compared to the flute, through which Tezcatlipoca could express his will, makes the important social function of the instrument evident and shows that instrumental sound was perceived as the proper voice or ‘flowery song’ of a deity. Thus, the flutist fulfilled the role of a mediator. It can be proposed that he was sacrificed instead of the ruler.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Both, Arnd Adje. [Aztec Flower-Flutes: The Symbolic Organization of Sound in Late Postclassic Mesoamerica][9].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore, breaking of the flutes represents a pause in communication with the gods, which is then reinstated after the sacrifice occurs. (I think it's also reasonable to interpret the breaking of the flutes as briefly returning the gift of music to the gods, and thereby thanking them for said gift.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Recall that in the myth the envoy-counterpart of Tezcatlipoca descended from the abode of the sun and offered music to the people so that they could adore their gods. In the ritual, the representative of Tezcatlipoca returned toward the sun [i.e. walked back up the temple] and broke the flutes. By breaking them on the temple steps, he foresaw his own death by becoming one with the instrument. With his death the possibility of contact with the god was broken, and only with the coming of a new representative would it be possible to reestablish a link between gods and humans. The king could then leave his retreat, and the sound of flutes would again make the presence of the god known in the city.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Oliver][10].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yet another interpretation looks at the ritual through the lens of [Aztec and Central American ideas about the soul and human nature][11]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The sacrifice of the youth was linked to the profound philosophical idea that only the true, the deified heart is worthy to become nourishment for the great start that maintains life on earth. The Nahua peoples believed that we are born with a physical heart and face, but that we have to create a deified heart and a true face.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Nicholson, Irene. *Mexican and Central American Mythology*.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **The ceremony was a myth acted out in real life. The myth was about man, who must learn to glorify god through sensual things, through fine clothes and music and dance, before he is worthy of breaking the senses one by one and losing his life in order to gain it.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Nicholson.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This interpretation of the breaking of the flutes reminds me of the following quote about art:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The poet and critic Allen Grossman tells a story (there are many versions of the story) that goes like this: you’re moved to write a poem because of some transcendent impulse to get beyond the human, the historical, the finite. But as soon as you move from that impulse to the actual poem, the song of the infinite is compromised by the finitude of its terms. So the poem is always a record of failure.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Lerner, Ben. [On Disliking Poetry][12])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And now we've come full circle: a reason why flutes are so important is that music allows humans to express themselves. Breaking a flute is the equivalent to killing someone as they can not speak nor communicate with the gods. However, the breaking of the flute also represents both an interruption of divine communication *and* (as argued by Nicholson) an attempt at a rebirth into a realm where flutes aren't necessary, because there is direct communication with the spiritual realm.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of course, none of that theology makes the human sacrifices performed by the Aztecs ethical, but it helps us understand their perspective better.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/41699767&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.com/books?id=3bUPBAAAQBAJ&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://books.google.com/books?id=3bUPBAAAQBAJ&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/4yOFP.png&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.mixcoacalli.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/both_2002.PDF &quot;This source also contains technical details behind the \&quot;flower-flutes\&quot;.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/xFCZH.png&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://books.google.com/books?id=3bUPBAAAQBAJ&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.academia.edu/8645965/_The_Hidden_King_and_the_Broken_Flutes_the_Mythical_and_Royal_Dimension_of_Tezcatlipocas_Feast_in_Toxcatl_en_Representing_Ritual_Performance_Text_and_Image_in_the_Work_of_Sahag%C3%BAn_Eloise_Qui%C3%B1ones_Keber_coord._Niwat_University_of_Colorado_Press_2002_pp._107-142&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.mixcoacalli.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/both_2002.PDF &quot;This source also contains technical details behind the \&quot;flower-flutes\&quot;.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://www.academia.edu/8645965/_The_Hidden_King_and_the_Broken_Flutes_the_Mythical_and_Royal_Dimension_of_Tezcatlipocas_Feast_in_Toxcatl_en_Representing_Ritual_Performance_Text_and_Image_in_the_Work_of_Sahag%C3%BAn_Eloise_Qui%C3%B1ones_Keber_coord._Niwat_University_of_Colorado_Press_2002_pp._107-142&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.iep.utm.edu/aztec/&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v37/n12/ben-lerner/diary" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4262" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="913" RevisionGUID="ac3f35a1-f30e-4a8d-a7d6-18d8867171b2" CreationDate="2015-06-12T22:45:04.890" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="deleted 10 characters in body" Text="Sahagún's Codex Florentine includes an account of people sacrificed for [Tezcatlipoca][1] (an Aztec god):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For him who was thus, who had no flaw, who had no bodily defects, who had no blemish, who had no mark, who had no warts, no small tumor; the greatest care was taken that he be taught to blow the flute and whistle. He would hold flowers and his smoking tube. At the same time he would go playing the flute, he would go sucking the smoking tube, he would go smelling the flowers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Stocker, Terry, [The Aztec Trickster On Display][2].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is significant is that the person, before he dies, breaks the flutes that he played while he was alive:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When he arrived where he was to die, a small temple called Tlacochcalco stood, he ascended by himself of his own free will. Climbing the steps, he shattered his flutes and whistles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the purpose of breaking the flutes?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's a picture of the event (originally from Sahagún's Codex Florentine — the same source as the written account) taken from [Mexilore.Co.Uk][3]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Picture of the breaking of the flutes from Sahagún's Codex Florentine][4]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.azteccalendar.com/god/tezcatlipoca.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.trinity.edu/org/tricksters/trixway/current/Vol%201/Vol%201_1/Tstocker.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/music/music-song-and-dance-among-the-aztecs-a-short-introduction&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/F7H7r.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4263" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="915" RevisionGUID="41ec6ccf-62c8-414a-b41d-3b4fcf611f12" CreationDate="2015-06-12T23:49:34.013" UserId="42" Text="Well, the movie's culture is purportedly based on Celtic paganism.  Mostly gods were worshiped locally in this tradition.  Epona is a rare exception:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Epona sculpture][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Epona is a unusual case of a pagan Celtic god that received widespread worship, to the point she was even incorporated to some degree into the Roman pantheon.  She is a goddess of fertility and protector of horses.  The man dressed as a woman shown above is holding a sickle and a plant of some kind.  A Cornucopia, patera, or grains would be more iconic, but an implement of argiculture, and a plant do seem to speak of fertility symbolism.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As protected of horses, she is usually depicted alongside them, so the horse figure may be simply a part of her representation (perhaps with the creepiness turned up to 11 for cinematic effect).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Epona is a fitting leader of the procession, as it is a ceremony to ensure a bountiful harvest in the coming year.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as the fool, seems certainly to be a representation of [Punch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punch_and_Judy), a fool who has been appearing in slapstick comedy acts for centuries.  It's a nice poetic turn, considering who is behind the mask, but I don't think there is any deeper identity than Punch.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/J4ROK.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4264" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="915" RevisionGUID="c5b27fc9-6a28-406b-b89a-1680cd432e89" CreationDate="2015-06-12T23:54:44.417" UserId="42" Comment="edited body" Text="Well, the movie's culture is purportedly based on Celtic paganism.  Mostly gods were worshiped locally in this tradition.  Epona is a rare exception:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Epona sculpture][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Epona is a unusual case of a pagan Celtic god that received widespread worship, to the point she was even incorporated to some degree into the Roman pantheon.  She is a goddess of fertility and protector of horses.  The man dressed as a woman shown above is holding a sickle and a plant of some kind.  A Cornucopia, patera, or grains would be more iconic, but an implement of argiculture, and a plant do seem to speak of fertility symbolism.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As protector of horses, she is usually depicted alongside them, so the horse figure may be simply a part of her representation (perhaps with the creepiness turned up to 11 for cinematic effect).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Epona is a fitting leader of the procession, as it is a ceremony to ensure a bountiful harvest in the coming year.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as the fool, seems certainly to be a representation of [Punch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punch_and_Judy), a fool who has been appearing in slapstick comedy acts for centuries.  It's a nice poetic turn, considering who is behind the mask, but I don't think there is any deeper identity than Punch.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/J4ROK.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4265" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="914" RevisionGUID="11199041-045f-42ee-a7dc-bc43e21b288f" CreationDate="2015-06-13T02:00:05.400" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="fixed link" Text="Music [plays a huge role in Aztec (and other central American) cultures][1]. As such, its meaning is complex, and a lot has been written about both Aztec music in general and the specific meaning of the breaking of the flutes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most basic interpretation is that the breaking of the flutes simply represents the death of the sacrificial victim/avatar of the god on earth:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; What then do the flutes, flute playing, and the physical breaking of the flutes by the player himself signify? Not only is a painful death the end of the happiness of earth, but the flute also symbolizes all that is humanly and spiritually powerful, as Carrasco explains: &quot;The sound of the flute, as with the word, depends on the exhalation of the breath or, in Nahua thought, the soul.&quot; Therefore, the soul of the sacrificial victim who represented the &quot;god of gods&quot; is forever lost with his death and by his own breaking of the flutes that represented his soul.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Olsen, Dale A., [World Flutelore: Folktales, Myths, and Other Stories of Magical Flute Power][2].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is further supported by the fact that flutes were a metaphor for flowers, meaning that the act of breaking the flute was analogous to picking a flower (i.e. killing them, but preserving their &quot;essence&quot; like preserving a flower in a vase):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Furthermore, the particular Aztec ceramic duct flute... performed by the young impersonator of Tezcatlipoca is called a &quot;flower flute&quot; because it has a flared distal end that represents a flower blossom. Furthermore, the flower... symbolizes beauty, blood offering, and music, according to Arnd Adje Both:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&gt; Indeed, the heart of a deity impersonator itself was compared to a flower, metaphorically &quot;plucked&quot; and offered in ritual human sacrifice. Analogously the impersonator &quot;plucked&quot; the flutes before his own death, as symbolized in breaking the bells from the tube over the stairway and leaving them as undamaged as possible. This act of ritual destruction is clearly evident by organological data and could be interpreted as a process of transformation into the spiritual realm.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Olsen][3]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here are some pictures of the flower shaped flutes used in the ritual (from [Arnd Adje Both's fantastic pdf about the instruments][5]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Drawings of Aztec flutes.][4]][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Aztec flute playing posture.][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another interpretation focuses on the use of music to communicate with the gods. In fact:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Some musical instruments were considered to be sounding idols, indicating that ritual music could be perceived as a voice of the gods, and that the Aztec instrumentalist fulfilled the role of an expert mediator through whom a god sang. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Both, Arnd Adje, [Aztec Music Culture][1].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The importance of music is further emphasized by the myths that discuss the origin of music. In Central American myths, music is stolen from gods (often with the help of Tezcatlipoca, and gives humans the power to communicate with the spiritual realm:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; An interesting myth... related that originally music was the property of the sun. After the sacrifice of the gods in Teotihuacan, men gathered their remains and made sacred bundles out of them, but they did not know how to adore them. Tezcatlipoca created Ehecatl (Wind), whom he entrusted with the task of going to the house of the sun to bring the musicians there to the earth. Water goddesses, the nieces of Tezcatlipoca, build a bridge [sic] so that Ehecatl could reach the abode of the sun. The musicians were warned not to answer the intruder with the &quot;mellifluous song,&quot; but in spite of these warnings, one of the musicians succumbed to the charm of the song and followed the envoy of Tezcatlipoca. That was the origin of music and prayers on the earth, thanks to which men could adore the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the Popol Vuh, the noise of the ball game provokes the ire of the underworld masters of Xibalba; several modern myths give the same function to the song and music played by the hero... Thus the noise from the ball game, smoke, and music all have parallel functions. They manifest the acquisition of cultural goods, which constitute a king of usurpation of the power of the creator gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Oliver, Guilhem, [The Hidden King and the Broken Flutes: the Mythical and Royal Dimension of Tezcatlipoca's Feast in Toxcatl][8].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is also supported by the Aztec connection between flowers and music (which we've previously discussed when comparing the shape of the flutes to flowers). The scent of flowers and the sound of music are analogous in Aztec culture, as both allow humans to communicate with their deities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Aztec concept of music as a “flowery song” is reflected in the calyx-shape of the flower-flute. To play it allows to visualize the metaphorical link between sound and the scent of blossoms, both regarded as sacrificial gifts functioning as a means of communication with the spiritual realm, probably because of their invisible sensual quality. That the ruler was compared to the flute, through which Tezcatlipoca could express his will, makes the important social function of the instrument evident and shows that instrumental sound was perceived as the proper voice or ‘flowery song’ of a deity. Thus, the flutist fulfilled the role of a mediator. It can be proposed that he was sacrificed instead of the ruler.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Both, Arnd Adje. [Aztec Flower-Flutes: The Symbolic Organization of Sound in Late Postclassic Mesoamerica][9].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore, breaking of the flutes represents a pause in communication with the gods, which is then reinstated after the sacrifice occurs. (I think it's also reasonable to interpret the breaking of the flutes as briefly returning the gift of music to the gods, and thereby thanking them for said gift.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Recall that in the myth the envoy-counterpart of Tezcatlipoca descended from the abode of the sun and offered music to the people so that they could adore their gods. In the ritual, the representative of Tezcatlipoca returned toward the sun [i.e. walked back up the temple] and broke the flutes. By breaking them on the temple steps, he foresaw his own death by becoming one with the instrument. With his death the possibility of contact with the god was broken, and only with the coming of a new representative would it be possible to reestablish a link between gods and humans. The king could then leave his retreat, and the sound of flutes would again make the presence of the god known in the city.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Oliver][10].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yet another interpretation looks at the ritual through the lens of [Aztec and Central American ideas about the soul and human nature][11]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The sacrifice of the youth was linked to the profound philosophical idea that only the true, the deified heart is worthy to become nourishment for the great start that maintains life on earth. The Nahua peoples believed that we are born with a physical heart and face, but that we have to create a deified heart and a true face.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Nicholson, Irene. *Mexican and Central American Mythology*.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **The ceremony was a myth acted out in real life. The myth was about man, who must learn to glorify god through sensual things, through fine clothes and music and dance, before he is worthy of breaking the senses one by one and losing his life in order to gain it.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Nicholson.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This interpretation of the breaking of the flutes reminds me of the following quote about art:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The poet and critic Allen Grossman tells a story (there are many versions of the story) that goes like this: you’re moved to write a poem because of some transcendent impulse to get beyond the human, the historical, the finite. But as soon as you move from that impulse to the actual poem, the song of the infinite is compromised by the finitude of its terms. So the poem is always a record of failure.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Lerner, Ben. [On Disliking Poetry][12])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And now we've come full circle: a reason why flutes are so important is that music allows humans to express themselves. Breaking a flute is the equivalent to killing someone as they can not speak nor communicate with the gods. However, the breaking of the flute also represents both an interruption of divine communication *and* (as argued by Nicholson) an attempt at a rebirth into a realm where flutes aren't necessary, because there is direct communication with the spiritual realm.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of course, none of that theology makes the human sacrifices performed by the Aztecs ethical, but it helps us understand their perspective better.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/41699767&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.com/books?id=3bUPBAAAQBAJ&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://books.google.com/books?id=3bUPBAAAQBAJ&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/4yOFP.png&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.mixcoacalli.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/both_2002.PDF &quot;This source also contains technical details behind the \&quot;flower-flutes\&quot;.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/xFCZH.png&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://books.google.com/books?id=3bUPBAAAQBAJ&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.academia.edu/8645965/_The_Hidden_King_and_the_Broken_Flutes_the_Mythical_and_Royal_Dimension_of_Tezcatlipocas_Feast_in_Toxcatl_en_Representing_Ritual_Performance_Text_and_Image_in_the_Work_of_Sahag%C3%BAn_Eloise_Qui%C3%B1ones_Keber_coord._Niwat_University_of_Colorado_Press_2002_pp._107-142&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.mixcoacalli.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/both_2002.PDF &quot;This source also contains technical details behind the \&quot;flower-flutes\&quot;.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://www.academia.edu/8645965/_The_Hidden_King_and_the_Broken_Flutes_the_Mythical_and_Royal_Dimension_of_Tezcatlipocas_Feast_in_Toxcatl_en_Representing_Ritual_Performance_Text_and_Image_in_the_Work_of_Sahag%C3%BAn_Eloise_Qui%C3%B1ones_Keber_coord._Niwat_University_of_Colorado_Press_2002_pp._107-142&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.iep.utm.edu/aztec/&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v37/n12/ben-lerner/diary" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4266" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="912" RevisionGUID="18b49420-b4bc-4135-9291-27afc5ecdffd" CreationDate="2015-06-13T02:07:38.437" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 7 characters in body; edited title" Text="In [The Wicker Man (1973)][1], the Mayday procession is headed by three masked characters:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Mayday procession in The Wicker Man][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Their cast includes many alarming characters:  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; A man-animal, or hobbyhorse,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; who canters at the head of the  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; procession charging at the girls;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; A man-woman, the sinister teaser,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; played by the community leader or priest;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And a man-fool, Punch,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; most complex of all the symbolic figures -  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; the privileged simpleton and king for a day.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Six swordsmen follow these figures...  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; and at the climax of the ceremony  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; lock their swords together...  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In a clear symbol of the Sun.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In pagan times, however, these dances  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; were not simply picturesque jigs.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; They were frenzied rites ending in a sacrifice  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; by which the dancers hoped desperately  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; to win over the goddess of the fields.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In good times, they offered produce  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; to the gods and slaughtered animals,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; but in bad years, when the harvest had been poor,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; the sacrifice was a human being.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In some cultures, it would be the king himself.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In others, the most beloved virgin.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Very often he or she would be kept hidden  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; for months preceding the ceremony,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; just as the Sun is hidden  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; from the Earth in winter.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would like to know if these are real characters from the Celtic mythology or they were just made up for the movie.  If yes, do they have formal names and what is the symbolic meaning of those characters beyond what was said in the movie?&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070917/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/FL8XK.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4267" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="912" RevisionGUID="18b49420-b4bc-4135-9291-27afc5ecdffd" CreationDate="2015-06-13T02:07:38.437" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 7 characters in body; edited title" Text="Symbolism of three characters leading Mayday ritual in The Wicker Man" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4268" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="916" RevisionGUID="e80b7bab-aaff-4403-a3c5-6859eabb71ac" CreationDate="2015-06-13T09:38:05.147" UserId="37" Text="These three characters are recurring in various mummer or guiser plays. These are old traditional folk dance/theatrical rituals which are known to have been performed at least as early as in the Middle Ages, though it's not known exactly how the plays/dances looked back them. But the versions that are still performed are documented at least in the mid-1800's.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Wikipedia][1] says &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Although usually broadly comic performances, the plays seem to be based on underlying themes of duality and resurrection and generally involve a battle between two or more characters, perhaps representing good against evil. Usually they feature a doctor who has a magic potion which is able to resuscitate a slain character. It is interesting to note that even though the quack doctor performed witchcraft in a largely catholic country, he was still a widely accepted and beloved character. Early scholars of folk drama, influenced by James Frazer's The Golden Bough, tended to view these plays as debased versions of a pre-Christian fertility ritual, but some modern researchers discount this view preferring a late mediaeval origin (for which there is no evidence either).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are as many versions of the plays as there are places where they're performed, possibly more. But in their essence they are about death and resurrection, and they are performed at times of renewal such as the New year or the harvest (as in the movie).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The three characters are &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. &quot;The Fool&quot; - he's the one who becomes &quot;king for a day&quot; and is then cut down. In many versions, he's resurrected immediately. He straddles the boundary between life and death.&#xD;&#xA; 2. &quot;The Hobbyhorse&quot; - he's half human, half animal, so he straddles the boundary between the human world and the rest of nature&#xD;&#xA; 3. &quot;The teaser&quot; - half man, half woman, crossing the gender boundary. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(If you're interested in seeing a different take of the characters, Ngaio Marsh wrote a detective story set around a particular version of the Guiser play/sword dance, which describes the characters used in that dance in great detail. It's called &quot;[Off with his head][2]&quot;. It was after reading that book that I started learning about the tradition.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mummers_play&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.amazon.com/Off-Head-Ngaio-Marsh-Collection-ebook/dp/B002YPORTY/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4269" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="917" RevisionGUID="d2135b67-bf5b-46b9-b894-ad8e832edfd0" CreationDate="2015-06-13T16:05:25.920" UserDisplayName="user93" Text="Ragnarok myths, especially the Voluspa, were greatly influenced by Christianity. Typically pagan myths influenced Christianity more, but in this case, the influence of Christianity on Ragnarok myths is not just likely, but certain. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The book of Revelation from the New Testament is highly detailed, yet it is a prophecy. The prose of such prophecies is that the prophet sees everything unfold in a vision, so from his perspective, it did happen. The author of Voluspa was undoubtedly imitating the style of Revelation and in larger part, Judeo-Christian prophetic works.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Specific elements within each work indicate this imitation. For example, Loki brings the giants together to fight against the gods in the final battle of Ragnarok, which results in the Earth's destruction by fire. In Revelation, the Devil amasses an army of demons and wicked humans to fight against God and his angels in the battle of Armageddon. The world is also destroyed by fire, although by the will of God, rather than as a result of the battle. A new Earth is also made in both myths. The only major differences are the names, places, and death of &quot;the good guys&quot; in Ragnarok, but total annihilation of &quot;the bad guys&quot; by the Almighty God in Revelation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you are familiar with both works, the Christian influence on Voluspa is quite evident and the dating of the Voluspa puts it in the 10th century, after Christianity had been in the area for nearly 2 centuries.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;SOURCES&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [*Völuspá* - New Advent][1] - &quot;Christian influence is not only possible, but certain.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;2. [Viking Religion - BBC History][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15507a.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/vikings/religion_01.shtml" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4270" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="918" RevisionGUID="ba0f97e6-8ca5-4783-b4a4-ccf9170d908a" CreationDate="2015-06-13T16:25:10.257" UserDisplayName="user93" Text="There is a lot of influence from non-Christian myths on Christian myths. There are numerous examples of syncretism, especially revolving around the various saints and what they might have done. However, when researching on how Loki might have influenced Christian myths, there is a dearth of information. He seems to have been completely neglected. Did Loki influence any Christian characters? Did any actions he might have done influence the actions of any Christian figure?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4271" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="918" RevisionGUID="ba0f97e6-8ca5-4783-b4a4-ccf9170d908a" CreationDate="2015-06-13T16:25:10.257" UserDisplayName="user93" Text="Did myths involving Loki influence Christian myths?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4272" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="918" RevisionGUID="ba0f97e6-8ca5-4783-b4a4-ccf9170d908a" CreationDate="2015-06-13T16:25:10.257" UserDisplayName="user93" Text="|norse|comparative|christianity|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4273" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="919" RevisionGUID="99a00783-bbae-4819-ae92-5c5a34f5fe92" CreationDate="2015-06-13T16:25:10.257" UserDisplayName="user93" Text="It is typically assumed that when similarities are found between Christianity and another religion, whether in myth, dogma, or practice, the flow of influence is syncretism *into* Christianity. This tendency is largely due to the many instances of Catholic hagiology (mythology about the Saints) appearing much like myths from earlier pagan times *before* Christianity had heavy influence over the area.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is very likely some level of influence, however, **it is Christianity that influenced myths about Loki.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The earliest Norse myths involving Loki portray a character that is certainly a trickster, but not malicious. There are many instances of Loki engaging in a good deal of intentional mischief, but also resourceful and helpful, giving inventions to humans, and eventually resolving his mostly harmless mischief. However, by the 10th century, after nearly 200 years of significant Christian influence, Loki's myths make him out to be a much darker character. In a myth involving a character named Baldr (who was certainly influenced by Christian depictions of Jesus), Loki is an evil specimen that murders Baldr out of jealousy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When they capture Loki, he is held in a prison until Ragnarok (the Norse apocalypse that was also likely influenced by Christianity) and tortured by having a perpetual stream of snake venom drip into is face.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Loki's evil nature and jealousy (of a Christ like image especially) and his ultimate tortuous imprisonment was undoubtedly influenced by Christian perceptions of Satan.** In Christian mythology, Satan is evil. And the eschatology (apocalyptic theology) revolving around him involves an eternity of torment, which is undoubtedly because of his heinous misdeeds against God, humanity, and the rest of creation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This progression for trickster gods to take on a darker persona as the centuries pass is actually quite common (Satan in Job, for example, is not necessarily evil, but is certainly an accuser and adversary, but by Revelation he *is* patently evil). It is therefore expected that Loki would become more like Satan as Christianity influenced the Norse mythos, because Satan had already progressed into a personification of evil centuries earlier. Without Christian influence, Loki still likely would have become more evil and less trickster, so the rising influence of Christianity in Norse areas and Loki's conversion to an evil character may have been coincidental, however it does seem likely that Christianity at least hastened the process.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;SOURCES&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [*Lucifer: The Devil in the Middle Ages*][1] - &quot;The parallels between Loki and Satan are striking but are for the most part Christian coloring of paganism rather than the opposite.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;2. [*The Trickster, the Devil, and an Ambiguous World* - The Anthropik Network][3] - &quot;It’s fairly easy to divide stories about Loki into two historical categories: pre-Christianity, and post-Christianity.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;3. [*A Brief History of the Vikings*][4] - &quot;By the [10th century], Loki had perhaps been influenced by several centuries of Christian lore, and was now seen as a far more devilish figure that he may originally have been.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;4. *[Archetypes and Motifs in Folklore and Literature][5]* - &quot;Tales of Loki's evil and binding are clearly influenced by the later Christian identification of Loki and the Devil (tricksters, perhaps because of their profane character, are often equated with the Devil if their original culture is converted to Christianity).&quot;&#xD;&#xA;5. [*Völuspá* - New Advent][2] - &quot;Balder, the innocent god, is treacherously slain through the machinations of the wicked Loki.&quot; and &quot;Christian influence is not only possible, but certain.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;6. [Viking Religion - BBC History][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;NOTES&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [*A New Place for Loki, Part II* on Polytheist.com][7] states that &quot;since Loki was a deity who I believe was originally responsible for carrying burnt sacrifices to the gods and freeing the souls of the dead via cremation, it is only natural that the Catholic Church would have found him particularly deplorable.&quot; There are many sources for the article, but I have not looked through them. There is a certain level of sense to the claim, but without vetting it, the source finds itself in the notes section instead.&#xD;&#xA;2. [*Christmas in Germany: A Cultural History*][8] states &quot;The Norse God Loki [et al.] ... contributed to Elm's syncretic descriptions of Christmas custom.&quot; A different topic, but interesting.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=i_AcX5Znv6cC&amp;pg=PA65&amp;lpg=PA65&amp;dq=how%20did%20christianity%20influence%20loki&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=AhrGkhMI-T&amp;sig=aAVpfHl_Q9imD5cYN9A7x9DtMp4&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0CDgQ6AEwAzgKahUKEwjmttfryovGAhUNmYgKHVwBAGQ#v=onepage&amp;q=how%20did%20christianity%20influence%20loki&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15507a.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://rewild.com/anthropik/2006/06/the-trickster-the-devil-and-an-ambiguous-world/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://books.google.com/books?id=j6jABAAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT28&amp;lpg=PT28&amp;dq=how%20did%20christianity%20influence%20loki&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=PjDgMl1QoH&amp;sig=aPwf-G8MX9-cSxDwWtiTHKxSKtQ&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0CE8Q6AEwCDgKahUKEwjmttfryovGAhUNmYgKHVwBAGQ#v=onepage&amp;q=how%20did%20christianity%20influence%20loki&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://books.google.com/books?id=Cn6pWMverBIC&amp;pg=PA478&amp;lpg=PA478&amp;dq=how%20did%20christianity%20influence%20loki&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=uH2Z1vtWds&amp;sig=lOmVFmDB4MDkDMHnz4bvam_wSv8&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0CFIQ6AEwCTgKahUKEwjmttfryovGAhUNmYgKHVwBAGQ#v=onepage&amp;q=how%20did%20christianity%20influence%20loki&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/vikings/religion_01.shtml&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://polytheist.com/orgrandr-lokean/2014/09/23/a-new-place-for-loki-part-ii/&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://books.google.com/books?id=HQiFgiRrLQwC&amp;pg=PA57&amp;lpg=PA57&amp;dq=loki%20catholic%20syncretism&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=NMyjo9O0KV&amp;sig=4xhHSxgOFpnrjTVXeFSW1P9IcAs&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0CFMQ6AEwB2oVChMI6diL-b2LxgIVEjSICh2kRQAv#v=onepage&amp;q=loki%20catholic%20syncretism&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4274" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="916" RevisionGUID="cac757cd-3c11-4f9a-b82a-957204a97d46" CreationDate="2015-06-13T19:08:47.737" UserId="37" Comment="corrected the date of the dance in the movie, added information about identification of the characters" Text="These three characters are recurring in various mummer or guiser plays. These are old traditional folk dance/theatrical rituals which are known to have been performed at least as early as in the Middle Ages, though it's not known exactly how the plays/dances looked back them. But the versions that are still performed are documented at least in the mid-1800's.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Wikipedia][1] says &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Although usually broadly comic performances, the plays seem to be based on underlying themes of duality and resurrection and generally involve a battle between two or more characters, perhaps representing good against evil. Usually they feature a doctor who has a magic potion which is able to resuscitate a slain character. It is interesting to note that even though the quack doctor performed witchcraft in a largely catholic country, he was still a widely accepted and beloved character. Early scholars of folk drama, influenced by James Frazer's The Golden Bough, tended to view these plays as debased versions of a pre-Christian fertility ritual, but some modern researchers discount this view preferring a late mediaeval origin (for which there is no evidence either).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are as many versions of the plays as there are places where they're performed, possibly more. But in their essence they are about death and resurrection, and they are performed at times of renewal such as the New year, the harvest or May Day/Beltaine (as in the movie).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The three characters are, as mentioned in the movie:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. &quot;The Fool&quot; - he's the one who becomes &quot;king for a day&quot; and is then cut down. In many versions, he's resurrected immediately. He straddles the boundary between life and death.&#xD;&#xA; 2. &quot;The Hobbyhorse&quot; - he's half human, half animal, so he straddles the boundary between the human world and the rest of nature&#xD;&#xA; 3. &quot;The teaser&quot; - half man, half woman, crossing the gender boundary.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The movie has a scene where Sergeant Howie finds a book describing these characters and reads from it aloud, while the viewer can see the pictures in the pages of the book.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(If you're interested in seeing a different take of the characters, Ngaio Marsh wrote a detective story set around a particular version of the Guiser play/sword dance, which describes the characters used in that dance in great detail. It's called &quot;[Off with his head][2]&quot;. It was after reading that book that I started learning about the tradition.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mummers_play&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.amazon.com/Off-Head-Ngaio-Marsh-Collection-ebook/dp/B002YPORTY/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4275" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="916" RevisionGUID="af414f11-d9ce-4ccc-b20c-bfd858cbd5cd" CreationDate="2015-06-13T19:20:07.460" UserId="37" Comment="added 42 characters in body" Text="These three characters are recurring in various mummer or guiser plays. These are old traditional folk dance/theatrical rituals which are known to have been performed at least as early as in the Middle Ages, though it's not known exactly how the plays/dances looked back them. But the versions that are still performed are documented at least in the mid-1800's.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Wikipedia][1] says &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Although usually broadly comic performances, the plays seem to be based on underlying themes of duality and resurrection and generally involve a battle between two or more characters, perhaps representing good against evil. Usually they feature a doctor who has a magic potion which is able to resuscitate a slain character. It is interesting to note that even though the quack doctor performed witchcraft in a largely catholic country, he was still a widely accepted and beloved character. Early scholars of folk drama, influenced by James Frazer's The Golden Bough, tended to view these plays as debased versions of a pre-Christian fertility ritual, but some modern researchers discount this view preferring a late mediaeval origin (for which there is no evidence either).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are as many versions of the plays as there are places where they're performed, possibly more. But in their essence they are about death and resurrection, and they are performed at times of renewal such as the New year, the harvest or May Day/Beltaine (as in the movie).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The three characters are, as described in the movie quote in the question:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. &quot;The Fool&quot; - he's the one who becomes &quot;king for a day&quot; and is then cut down. In many versions, he's resurrected immediately. He straddles the boundary between life and death.&#xD;&#xA; 2. &quot;The Hobbyhorse&quot; - he's half human, half animal, so he straddles the boundary between the human world and the rest of nature&#xD;&#xA; 3. &quot;The teaser&quot; - half man, half woman, crossing the gender boundary.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The quote in the question is from a scene where Sergeant Howie finds a book describing these characters and reads from it aloud, while the viewer can see the pictures in the pages of the book.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(If you're interested in seeing a different take of the characters, Ngaio Marsh wrote a detective story set around a particular version of the Guiser play/sword dance, which describes the characters used in that dance in great detail. It's called &quot;[Off with his head][2]&quot;. It was after reading that book that I started learning about the tradition.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mummers_play&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.amazon.com/Off-Head-Ngaio-Marsh-Collection-ebook/dp/B002YPORTY/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4281" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="920" RevisionGUID="e53ec6ff-45a8-4a0d-99db-687c29c78c36" CreationDate="2015-06-14T06:23:18.513" UserDisplayName="user93" Text="In the Pacific Northwest USA, the Indian lore has many flood myths. The area has its fair share of floods, however, there was a glacial lake called [Lake Missoula][1] during the last ice age. The lake was held back by ice dams that broke at least once (called a [glacial lake outburst flood][2]), flooding nearly the entire Pacific Northwest. Though there has never been a solid connection with this event and the Indian lore, it is often suggested whenever the two are mentioned in the same place. As a resident of the area, I hear it all the time whenever the area's ancient history is discussed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;nearly SOURCES&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Here's a source that talks about some of that lore][3], but not the glacial Lake Missoula.&#xD;&#xA;2. [A typical article discussing the myths and the actual flooding.][4]&#xD;&#xA;3. [An example myth.][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Missoula&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glacial_lake_outburst_flood#Contiguous_United_States&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://pnsn.org/outreach/native-american-stories/other-stories/the-flood&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://io9.com/5940112/ancient-flood-myths-may-have-a-basis-in-geological-history&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://books.google.com/books?id=Z8-3KVL03UYC&amp;pg=PA14&amp;lpg=PA14&amp;dq=flood%20myths%20of%20the%20pacific%20northwest&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=vEtoa-Vv0F&amp;sig=G1kZIrV2407RNidx7uzImiwOc0k&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0CDEQ6AEwA2oVChMItqS318COxgIVR5qICh0q4gBW#v=onepage&amp;q=flood%20myths%20of%20the%20pacific%20northwest&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4282" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="920" RevisionGUID="6a1956bf-cb15-4600-bda2-1967fb8513f2" CreationDate="2015-06-14T06:29:59.043" UserDisplayName="user93" Comment="added 618 characters in body" Text="In the Pacific Northwest USA, the Indian lore has many flood myths. The area has its fair share of floods, however, there was a glacial lake called [Lake Missoula][1] during the last ice age. The lake was held back by ice dams that broke at least once (called a [glacial lake outburst flood][2]), flooding nearly the entire Pacific Northwest. Though there has never been a solid connection with this event and the Indian lore, it is often suggested whenever the two are mentioned in the same place. As a resident of the area, I hear it all the time whenever the area's ancient history is discussed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;nearly SOURCES&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Here's a source that talks about some of that lore][3], but not the glacial Lake Missoula.&#xD;&#xA;2. [A typical article discussing the myths and the actual flooding.][4]&#xD;&#xA;3. [An example myth.][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Addendum&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's a mistake to think that all or even most flood myths are the result of glacial melt. In fact, floods in general are the most common natural disaster; nearly every area in the world experiences them from time to time. Floods are most often caused by tsunamis and rivers overflowing from snow pack melt (not the same thing as glacial melt). There's a few notable exceptions throughout history, but most floods are caused by those two. And considering most ancient communities gathered around rivers and shorelines, it makes sense that a great many flood myths would develop around the world. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Missoula&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glacial_lake_outburst_flood#Contiguous_United_States&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://pnsn.org/outreach/native-american-stories/other-stories/the-flood&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://io9.com/5940112/ancient-flood-myths-may-have-a-basis-in-geological-history&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://books.google.com/books?id=Z8-3KVL03UYC&amp;pg=PA14&amp;lpg=PA14&amp;dq=flood%20myths%20of%20the%20pacific%20northwest&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=vEtoa-Vv0F&amp;sig=G1kZIrV2407RNidx7uzImiwOc0k&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0CDEQ6AEwA2oVChMItqS318COxgIVR5qICh0q4gBW#v=onepage&amp;q=flood%20myths%20of%20the%20pacific%20northwest&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4283" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="906" RevisionGUID="c5e2a117-ebc9-4b22-bf2c-28198806b536" CreationDate="2015-06-14T12:42:17.210" UserId="123" Comment="included the comments in the answwer" Text="Nereus was a fish-tailed deity: http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Nereus.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anything needed to be said about Nereus is nicely expressed in the link, but I'll sum up some things. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That Nereus is a sea-god of some antiquity is noted by the familiarity in which he appears in Hesiod, though that particular name might be later. In Homer, he is named instead something like &quot;The Old Man of the Sea.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He wasn't always depicted half-fish, though. The earliest depiction we have of him does (a cup made ca. 520), but contemporary pottery (late 500s/early 400s) also portrays him human-like. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Romero Recio and B. Kowalzig connect him to archaic maritime divinities that sprang up following overseas expansion.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4284" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="906" RevisionGUID="c5e2a117-ebc9-4b22-bf2c-28198806b536" CreationDate="2015-06-14T12:42:17.210" Comment="Proposed by 123 approved by 65, 38 edit id of 211" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4286" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="921" RevisionGUID="f267a48b-874f-45c5-9981-35c4db7c3b73" CreationDate="2015-06-14T17:39:24.433" UserId="183" Text="[This](http://www.timelessmyths.com/celtic/faeries.html#Korrigan) compares the Korrigans to three earlier mythological figures:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Ceridwen&#xD;&#xA; - The Lady of the Fountain&#xD;&#xA; - The Lady of the Lake&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ceridwen is first (and perhaps only) mentioned in the story of *[Taliesin](http://sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab32.htm)*, in the Mabinogion. She is not depicted favorably - as a magical figure who, to put it one way, reacts poorly to failure. She really only appears in the first part of the story; her role leads to the life of Taliesin, the main character. her name, however, sounds quite similar to that of the Korrigans. Given that mythological names can change over time, she could be an important precursor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*[The Lady of the Fountain](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab05.htm)* is a tale of King Arthur, also related to a French poem, *Ywain, or, The Knight with the Lion*. It features (of course) the Lady of the Fountain, also referred to as the Countess of the Fountain. She does not appear to directly have any magical powers, but the Fountain does - at least in the story of Ywain. In this tale, she is named [Laudine](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laudine). The important tie here is that in the French version (as well, I think as the Arthurian), the Lady hails from Gaul or Brittany.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Lady of the Lake](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_of_the_Lake) is, of course, a central character in the stories of King Arthur (though there are some odd discrepancies; I would be indebted to anyone who can answer [this](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/479/is-there-any-relationship-between-the-ladies-of-the-lake)). I think that while the etymological argument in favor of Ceridwen being the influence is strong, there is also a very good argument to be made for the Lady of the Lake in Avalon. She is described as having eight other sisters; this is quite consistent with the nine Korrigans Keightley refers to as existing on some versions of the myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Each character has one or more chief similarities to the Korrigans, aside from any magical powers and other defining characteristics. For Ceridwen, it is the name. For the Lady of the Fountain, it is that she hails from Gaul or Brittany. For the Lady of the Lake, it is that she is one of nine sisters. It does seem likely that the Korrigans are composites of the three, meaning that the Korrigans did not appear in Breton folklore at a particular time, but were corruptions of earlier tales." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4287" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="684" RevisionGUID="8aadea05-95ea-4a95-8637-329c11bce26b" CreationDate="2015-06-15T01:30:49.627" UserId="14" Comment="added 94 characters in body" Text="**No, Kalki only comes in this Kali Yuga, not every Kali Yuga.**  Let me first explain a bit about Hindu timescales.  The four Yugas known as Satya, Treta, Dwapara, and Kali together make up one Mahayuga, and a thousand Mahayugas make up one Kalpa or day of Brahma.  But in addition to being divided into 1000 Mahayugas, a Kalpa is also divided into fourteen Manvantaras, each of which is made up of about 71 Mahayugas.  We're currently living in the seventh Manvantara of the present Kalpa, known as the Vaivasvata Manavantara, and we're living in the 28th Kali Yuga of the Vaivasvata Manvantara.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now that we have some background, in [this chapter][1] of the Matsya Purana (an important Hindu scripture), various incarnations of Vishnu in the present Vaivasvata Manvantara are described.  But Kalki is only mentioned once, and that is in the current Kali Yuga.  [This excerpt][2] from the Skanda Purana says the same thing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And we can find explicit references to how Kali Yugas have ended in the past.  In particular, [this chapter][3] of the famous Hindu epic the Mahabharata describes how Vishnu's incarnation Parashurama brought about the end of the 19th Kali Yuga of the Vaivasvata Manvantara by killing the kings of the world:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Even the great ascetic Rama, the hero worshipped by all heroes, that son of Jamadagni, of great fame, will die, without being contented (with the period of his life). **Rooting out all evils from the earth, he caused the primeval Yuga to set in.** Having obtained unrivalled prosperity, no fault could be seen in him. His father having been slain and his calf having been stolen by the Kshatriyas, he without any boast, slew Kartavirya who had never been vanquished before by foes. With his bow he slew four and sixty times ten thousand Kshatriyas already within the jaws of death. In that slaughter were included fourteen thousand Brahmana-hating Kshatriyas of the Dantakura country, all of whom he slew. Of the Haihayas, he slew a thousand with his short club, a thousand with his sword, and a thousand by hanging. Heroic warriors, with their cars, steeds, and elephants, lay dead on the field, slain by the wise son of Jamadagni, enraged at the slaughter of his father. And Rama, on that occasion, slew ten thousand Kshatriyas with his axe. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact, as far as I know there was only one other occasion where Vishnu took a Kalki incarnation.  The Kalki incarnation was named Pramati, and he seems to have lived in the Swayambhuva Manvantara, the first Manvantara of the present Kalpa.  (The Kalki incarnation who is going to come in present Kali Yuga will be named Vishnuyasha.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By the way, if you're interested in those lists of Vaivasvata Manvantara incarnations found in the Matsya and Skanda Puranas, I've posted a few questions about them on Hinduism.SE, [here][4], [here][5], and [here][6].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=nckrAAAAMAAJ&amp;dq=%2224th%20treta%22&amp;pg=PA138#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.indianscriptures.com/Content/Articles/PDFs/27478/62f_chapter_19_2.pdf#toolbar=0&amp;pagemode=none&amp;view=FitBH&amp;page=1%22&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://Even%20the%20great%20ascetic%20Rama,%20the%20hero%20worshipped%20by%20all%20heroes,%20that%20son%20of%20Jamadagni,%20of%20great%20fame,%20will%20die,%20without%20being&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://hinduism.stackexchange.com/q/7192/36&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://hinduism.stackexchange.com/q/7194/36&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://hinduism.stackexchange.com/q/7221/36" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4288" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="898" RevisionGUID="36fc1522-91a5-48e8-853e-7264b9f769b7" CreationDate="2015-06-15T07:46:42.230" UserId="-1" Comment="104" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:62,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Christofian&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:98,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;PythonMaster&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:65,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Young Guilo&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:93,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;fredsbend&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="4289" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="226" RevisionGUID="307a13ad-ef1d-42d3-804b-838a78f7a329" CreationDate="2015-06-15T08:27:59.907" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|apocalypse|gylfaginning|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4290" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="922" RevisionGUID="182d52f2-f48d-4876-9b5e-a742c9d43240" CreationDate="2015-06-15T08:37:39.487" UserId="57" Text="Gefjun, an Aesir, apparently had four ox sons with a giant:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But this woman was of the asa-race; her name was Gefjun. She took from the north, from Jotunheim, four oxen, which were the sons of a giant and her, and set them before the plow. Then went the plow so hard and deep that it tore up the land, and the oxen drew it westward into the sea, until it stood still in a sound. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Gylfaginning (The Fooling Of Gylfe), Prose Edda by Snorri Sturluson][1], Wikisource&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do we know who this giant was? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4291" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="922" RevisionGUID="182d52f2-f48d-4876-9b5e-a742c9d43240" CreationDate="2015-06-15T08:37:39.487" UserId="57" Text="Who fathered Gefjun's ox sons?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4292" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="922" RevisionGUID="182d52f2-f48d-4876-9b5e-a742c9d43240" CreationDate="2015-06-15T08:37:39.487" UserId="57" Text="|norse|gylfaginning|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4297" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="924" RevisionGUID="3f102d22-b87c-4a4d-9ed4-f17043d52470" CreationDate="2015-06-15T14:10:13.110" UserId="197" Text="I seem to remember a particular ancient Greek myth that used to explain how animal sacrifices to the Olympian gods were performed.  In particular, when poultry or mammals was sacrificed, the humans would keep the meat of the animal to them, and burn the less tasty parts (skins, fats, and entrails) for the gods to smell.  I cannot find this myth now.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What myths describe the general procedure of sacrifices to the Olympian gods, as in, what goods should be sacrificed and how, and give the mythical origin explaining these habits?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4298" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="924" RevisionGUID="3f102d22-b87c-4a4d-9ed4-f17043d52470" CreationDate="2015-06-15T14:10:13.110" UserId="197" Text="What myth explains animal sacrifices to the Olympian gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4299" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="924" RevisionGUID="3f102d22-b87c-4a4d-9ed4-f17043d52470" CreationDate="2015-06-15T14:10:13.110" UserId="197" Text="|greek|myth-identification|sacrifice|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4300" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="925" RevisionGUID="bee9622f-b25f-4961-9c74-19c1a9fdf35d" CreationDate="2015-06-15T15:50:55.607" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="I'm reading the Gylfaginning as part of our site's [myth of the month][1] challenge, and I noticed the following line:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; How was the earth fashioned? Made answer Har: The earth is round, and without it round about lies the deep ocean, and along the outer strand of that sea they gave lands for the giant races to dwell in; and against the attack of restless giants they built a burg within the sea and around the earth. For this purpose they used the giant Ymer's eyebrows, and they called the burg Midgard. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the norse understanding of geography at the time, where does that put the giants? Did they stay there all the time?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://meta.mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/263/myth-of-the-month-1-gylfaginning" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4301" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="925" RevisionGUID="bee9622f-b25f-4961-9c74-19c1a9fdf35d" CreationDate="2015-06-15T15:50:55.607" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="According to the Gylfaginning, where do giants live?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4302" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="925" RevisionGUID="bee9622f-b25f-4961-9c74-19c1a9fdf35d" CreationDate="2015-06-15T15:50:55.607" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="|gylfaginning|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4304" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="926" RevisionGUID="c82a6bdf-86d3-4d64-97ff-a093cfe01f69" CreationDate="2015-06-15T16:26:22.483" UserId="398" Text="The myth you're looking for is first outlined in Hesiod's *Theogony*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Theogony 535-558:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [535] For when the gods and mortal men had a dispute at Mecone, even then Prometheus was forward to cut up a great ox and set portions before them, trying to deceive the mind of Zeus. Before the rest he set flesh and inner parts thick with fat upon the hide, covering them with an ox paunch; [540] but for Zeus he put the white bones dressed up with cunning art and covered with shining fat. Then the father of men and of gods said to him: “Son of Iapetus, most glorious of all lords, good sir, how unfairly you have divided the portions!”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [545] So said Zeus whose wisdom is everlasting, rebuking him. But wily Prometheus answered him, smiling softly and not forgetting his cunning trick: “Zeus, most glorious and greatest of the eternal gods, take which ever of these portions your heart within you bids.” [550] So he said, thinking trickery. But Zeus, whose wisdom is everlasting, saw and failed not to perceive the trick, and in his heart he thought mischief against mortal men which also was to be fulfilled. With both hands he took up the white fat and was angry at heart, and wrath came to his spirit [555] when he saw the white ox-bones craftily tricked out: and because of this the tribes of men upon earth burn white bones to the deathless gods upon fragrant altars. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4306" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="927" RevisionGUID="8d6cbb0f-01d8-4fd2-a254-288d2b1c1487" CreationDate="2015-06-15T20:20:53.200" UserId="440" Text="I originally posted this question in the [Spanish StackExchange][1] but it seems it fits more in here, even though the significance of the word looks more direct in Spanish than English.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My doubt rose up after vaguely remember the words of a professor I had some years ago at the University, but I've been unable to find the source of the history on Internet.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What I remember about what he said is that the story began with a God who is in love with a river and from that relation emerged the mermaids, from which arise the word &quot;encantar&quot; (from the word &quot;cantar&quot;-&quot;to sing&quot; in spanish). This behaviour of seducing people by singing (apart from the extremely beauty of mermaids) is then related with a person who can extract you from this monotony and commonly distraught reality (associated with the life of sailors in a boat) and take you to a new more spiritual and joyful reality without the delusions of the other (associated with the place after death in the case of the sailors).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question then arises as if anybody can recognize this (intent of) cite and point out the classic text in which it's narrated (or maybe not a classic text but a posterior analysis and analogy of some classic text). I think this history is really beautiful, and wonderful to dedicate to a person who you really love and appreciate :)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks you so much in advance, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Warren.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;PS: Please excuse my English :s&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://spanish.stackexchange.com/questions/13025/etimolog%C3%ADa-de-la-palabra-encantadora-visto-desde-el-contexto-de-la-mitolog%C3%ADa-g" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4307" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="927" RevisionGUID="8d6cbb0f-01d8-4fd2-a254-288d2b1c1487" CreationDate="2015-06-15T20:20:53.200" UserId="440" Text="Etymology of &quot;charming&quot; (&quot;Encantadora&quot; in spanish) seeing from the Greek mythology point of view" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4308" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="927" RevisionGUID="8d6cbb0f-01d8-4fd2-a254-288d2b1c1487" CreationDate="2015-06-15T20:20:53.200" UserId="440" Text="|greek|mythohistory|etymology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4309" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="927" RevisionGUID="11c28929-2164-45d0-9b5c-a4245264b1ff" CreationDate="2015-06-15T20:27:02.020" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 81 characters in body" Text="I originally posted this question in the [Spanish StackExchange][1] but it seems it fits more in here, even though the significance of the word looks more direct in Spanish than English.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My doubt rose up after vaguely remember the words of a professor I had some years ago at the University, but I've been unable to find the source of the history on Internet.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What I remember about what he said is that the story began with a God who is in love with a river and from that relation emerged the mermaids, from which arise the word &quot;encantar&quot; (from the word &quot;cantar&quot;-&quot;to sing&quot; in spanish). This behaviour of seducing people by singing (apart from the extremely beauty of mermaids) is then related with a person who can extract you from this monotony and commonly distraught reality (associated with the life of sailors in a boat) and take you to a new more spiritual and joyful reality without the delusions of the other (associated with the place after death in the case of the sailors).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question then arises as if anybody can recognize this (intent of) cite and point out the classic text in which it's narrated (or maybe not a classic text but a posterior analysis and analogy of some classic text). I think this history is really beautiful, and wonderful to dedicate to a person who you really love and appreciate :)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://spanish.stackexchange.com/questions/13025/etimolog%C3%ADa-de-la-palabra-encantadora-visto-desde-el-contexto-de-la-mitolog%C3%ADa-g" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4310" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="928" RevisionGUID="dffbc380-20b0-4340-9165-3a5c79b295b5" CreationDate="2015-06-15T21:04:44.020" UserId="183" Text="Disclaimer: The Wikipedia article on [Niflheim](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niflheim) led me to these parts of the story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Quoting directly from the Gylfaginning (verse 15), with emphasis,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 15. Then said Ganglere: Where is the chief or most holy place of the gods? Har answered: That is by the ash Ygdrasil. There the gods meet in council every day. Said Ganglere: What is said about this place? Answered Jafnhar: This ash is the best and greatest of all trees; its branches spread over all the world, and reach up above heaven. **Three roots sustain the tree and stand wide apart; one root is with the asas and another with the frost-giants, where Ginungagap formerly was; the third reaches into Niflheim; under it is Hvergelmer, where Nidhug gnaws the root from below. But under the second root, which extends to the frost-giants, is the well of Mimer, wherein knowledge and wisdom are concealed.** The owner of the well hight Mimer. He is full of wisdom, for he drinks from the well with the Gjallar-horn. Alfather once came there and asked for a drink from the well, but he did not get it before he left one of his eyes as a pledge.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That indicates that the frost giants live &quot;where Giningagap formerly was&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From verse 43,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When the builder saw that his work was not going to be completed, he resumed his giant form. When the asas thus became sure that it was really a mountain-giant that had come among them, they did not heed their oaths, but called on Thor. **He came straightaway, swung his hammer, Mjolner, and paid the workman his wages,.---not with the sun and moon, but rather by preventing him from dwelling in Jotunheim; and this was easily done with the first blow of the hammer, which broke his skull into small pieces and sent him down to Niflhel.** But Loke had run such a race with Svadilfare that he some time after bore a foal. It was gray, and had eight feet, and this is the best horse among gods and men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For at least one mountain-giant, Niflhel became home.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [another article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6tunn#Ragnar.C3.B6k_and_the_fire_j.C3.B6tnar), Wikipedia says,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **A certain class of jötnar are the fire jötnar (Múspellsmegir, &quot;sons of Muspell&quot;, or eldjötnar), said to reside in Muspelheim, the world of heat and fire, ruled by the fire jötunn Surtr (&quot;the black one&quot;).** The main role of the fire jötnar in Norse mythology is to wreak the final destruction of the world by setting fire to it at the end of Ragnarök, when the jötnar of Jotunheim and the forces of Hel shall launch an attack on the gods, and kill all but a few of them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This makes sense, as Muspelheim is the counterpart of Niflheim (fire vs. ice).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, [Jötunheimr](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6tunheimr) and [Útgarðar](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Atgar%C3%B0ar) are also homes of giants (with the former being more important). Curiously enough, though, the giant mentioned who was thrown to Niflheim was originally from Jötunheimr. Note that Jötunheimr and Útgarðar together comprise one of the Nine Worlds; Niflheim and Muspelheim are two other of the worlds. This makes it hard to determine which are older. [This](http://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/giants/ymir/) says that Ymer (Ymir) was formed from the meeting of Niflheim and Muspelheim, indicating that those are the first homes of the giants (because Ymer was the first being)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4311" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="925" RevisionGUID="05547608-f2e1-46c3-b156-22a56124a91d" CreationDate="2015-06-15T21:06:00.357" UserId="183" Comment="Edited tags and one or two other things." Text="I'm reading the Gylfaginning as part of our site's [myth of the month][1] challenge, and I noticed the following line:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; How was the earth fashioned? Made answer Har: The earth is round, and without it round about lies the deep ocean, and along the outer strand of that sea they gave lands for the giant races to dwell in; and against the attack of restless giants they built a burg within the sea and around the earth. For this purpose they used the giant Ymer's eyebrows, and they called the burg Midgard. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the Norse understanding of geography at the time, where does that put the giants? Did they stay there all the time?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://meta.mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/263/myth-of-the-month-1-gylfaginning" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4312" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="925" RevisionGUID="05547608-f2e1-46c3-b156-22a56124a91d" CreationDate="2015-06-15T21:06:00.357" UserId="183" Comment="Edited tags and one or two other things." Text="|norse|gylfaginning|giants|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4313" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="921" RevisionGUID="5d471d21-8bd4-4aa2-8c56-72323c93ac0d" CreationDate="2015-06-15T21:15:00.570" UserId="183" Comment="added 20 characters in body" Text="[This](http://www.timelessmyths.com/celtic/faeries.html#Korrigan) compares the Korrigans to three earlier mythological figures:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Ceridwen&#xD;&#xA; - The Lady of the Fountain&#xD;&#xA; - The Lady of the Lake&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ceridwen** is first (and perhaps only) mentioned in the story of *[Taliesin](http://sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab32.htm)*, in the Mabinogion. She is not depicted favorably - as a magical figure who, to put it one way, reacts poorly to failure. She really only appears in the first part of the story; her role leads to the life of Taliesin, the main character. her name, however, sounds quite similar to that of the Korrigans. Given that mythological names can change over time, she could be an important precursor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*[The Lady of the Fountain](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab05.htm)* is a tale of King Arthur, also related to a French poem, *Ywain, or, The Knight with the Lion*. It features (of course) **the Lady of the Fountain**, also referred to as the **Countess of the Fountain**. She does not appear to directly have any magical powers, but the Fountain does - at least in the story of Ywain. In this tale, she is named **[Laudine](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laudine)**. The important tie here is that in the French version (as well, I think as the Arthurian), the Lady hails from Gaul or Brittany.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**[The Lady of the Lake](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_of_the_Lake)** is, of course, a central character in the stories of King Arthur (though there are some odd discrepancies; I would be indebted to anyone who can answer [this](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/479/is-there-any-relationship-between-the-ladies-of-the-lake)). I think that while the etymological argument in favor of Ceridwen being the influence is strong, there is also a very good argument to be made for the Lady of the Lake in Avalon. She is described as having eight other sisters; this is quite consistent with the nine Korrigans Keightley refers to as existing on some versions of the myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Each character has one or more chief similarities to the Korrigans, aside from any magical powers and other defining characteristics. For Ceridwen, it is the name. For the Lady of the Fountain, it is that she hails from Gaul or Brittany. For the Lady of the Lake, it is that she is one of nine sisters. It does seem likely that the Korrigans are composites of the three, meaning that the Korrigans did not appear in Breton folklore at a particular time, but were corruptions of earlier tales." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4314" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="928" RevisionGUID="bb3e66d0-2000-4494-adc2-44189e25f484" CreationDate="2015-06-16T00:20:06.767" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 126 characters in body" Text="Quoting directly from the Gylfaginning (verse 15), with emphasis,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 15. Then said Ganglere: Where is the chief or most holy place of the gods? Har answered: That is by the ash Ygdrasil. There the gods meet in council every day. Said Ganglere: What is said about this place? Answered Jafnhar: This ash is the best and greatest of all trees; its branches spread over all the world, and reach up above heaven. **Three roots sustain the tree and stand wide apart; one root is with the asas and another with the frost-giants, where Ginungagap formerly was; the third reaches into Niflheim; under it is Hvergelmer, where Nidhug gnaws the root from below. But under the second root, which extends to the frost-giants, is the well of Mimer, wherein knowledge and wisdom are concealed.** The owner of the well hight Mimer. He is full of wisdom, for he drinks from the well with the Gjallar-horn. Alfather once came there and asked for a drink from the well, but he did not get it before he left one of his eyes as a pledge.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That indicates that the frost giants live &quot;where Giningagap formerly was&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From verse 43,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When the builder saw that his work was not going to be completed, he resumed his giant form. When the asas thus became sure that it was really a mountain-giant that had come among them, they did not heed their oaths, but called on Thor. **He came straightaway, swung his hammer, Mjolner, and paid the workman his wages,.---not with the sun and moon, but rather by preventing him from dwelling in Jotunheim; and this was easily done with the first blow of the hammer, which broke his skull into small pieces and sent him down to Niflhel.** But Loke had run such a race with Svadilfare that he some time after bore a foal. It was gray, and had eight feet, and this is the best horse among gods and men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For at least one mountain-giant, Niflhel became home.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [another article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6tunn#Ragnar.C3.B6k_and_the_fire_j.C3.B6tnar), Wikipedia says,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **A certain class of jötnar are the fire jötnar (Múspellsmegir, &quot;sons of Muspell&quot;, or eldjötnar), said to reside in Muspelheim, the world of heat and fire, ruled by the fire jötunn Surtr (&quot;the black one&quot;).** The main role of the fire jötnar in Norse mythology is to wreak the final destruction of the world by setting fire to it at the end of Ragnarök, when the jötnar of Jotunheim and the forces of Hel shall launch an attack on the gods, and kill all but a few of them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This makes sense, as Muspelheim is the counterpart of Niflheim (fire vs. ice).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, [Jötunheimr](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6tunheimr) and [Útgarðar](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Atgar%C3%B0ar) are also homes of giants (with the former being more important). Curiously enough, though, the giant mentioned who was thrown to Niflheim was originally from Jötunheimr. Note that Jötunheimr and Útgarðar together comprise one of the Nine Worlds; Niflheim and Muspelheim are two other of the worlds. This makes it hard to determine which are older. [This](http://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/giants/ymir/) says that Ymer (Ymir) was formed from the meeting of Niflheim and Muspelheim, indicating that those are the first homes of the giants (because Ymer was the first being)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4315" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10" RevisionGUID="0b13dc28-6a13-4285-8d6d-9bb5414a30cb" CreationDate="2015-06-16T08:34:55.077" UserId="57" Comment="edited title" Text="How was it decided which warriors would go to Fólkvangr and which to Valhalla?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4316" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="929" RevisionGUID="5a8891bc-8486-4e5c-ba38-e58b96cfcdf9" CreationDate="2015-06-16T08:46:59.980" UserId="57" Text="[Ero Sɘnnin's answer][1] in [How was it decided which warriors would go to Fólkvangr and which to Valhalla?][2] seems to suggest that Odin gets to choose who enters Valhalla: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Valhalla is presided over by Odin, and to gain entrance to it, one must be chosen by him and his valkyries, the “choosers of the fallen.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The only difference that is pointed out, is in the way that the dead are chosen to stay. Odin chooses for Valhalla, while Freya chooses for Folkvang.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the Gylfaginning seems to be painting a slightly different picture: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Folkvang it is called,  &#xD;&#xA;And there rules Freyja.  &#xD;&#xA;For the seats in the hall  &#xD;&#xA;Half of the slain  &#xD;&#xA;She chooses each day;  &#xD;&#xA;The other half is Odin's.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Gylfaginning (The Fooling Of Gylfe), Prose Edda by Snorri Sturluson][3], Wikisource&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The way I read the above quote, Freyja is the one that chooses and Odin and Valhalla receive the half &quot;of the slain&quot; that's left. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does Odin actually have a say? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/269/57&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/10/57&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4317" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="929" RevisionGUID="5a8891bc-8486-4e5c-ba38-e58b96cfcdf9" CreationDate="2015-06-16T08:46:59.980" UserId="57" Text="Does Odin chose who enters Valhalla?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4318" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="929" RevisionGUID="5a8891bc-8486-4e5c-ba38-e58b96cfcdf9" CreationDate="2015-06-16T08:46:59.980" UserId="57" Text="|norse|gylfaginning|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4319" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="929" RevisionGUID="8bae67de-d7d3-4c55-9b06-a7e41f4c901b" CreationDate="2015-06-16T09:10:49.300" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|gylfaginning|odin|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4320" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="929" RevisionGUID="3789780b-175a-450f-99ce-6e35e46776cf" CreationDate="2015-06-16T09:21:33.587" UserId="57" Comment="edited title" Text="Does Odin choose who enters Valhalla?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4321" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="929" RevisionGUID="b8b72ec0-dcfe-4983-9b47-f84b34981252" CreationDate="2015-06-16T11:02:47.660" UserId="57" Comment="added 185 characters in body" Text="Ero Sɘnnin's [answer][1] in [How was it decided which warriors would go to Fólkvangr and which to Valhalla?][2] seems to suggest that Odin gets to choose who enters Valhalla: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Valhalla is presided over by Odin, and to gain entrance to it, one must be chosen by him and his valkyries, the “choosers of the fallen.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The only difference that is pointed out, is in the way that the dead are chosen to stay. Odin chooses for Valhalla, while Freya chooses for Folkvang.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This seems to be supported by Ero's (secondary) source: [Death and the Afterlife, Norse Mythology for Smart People][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the Gylfaginning seems to be painting a slightly different picture: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Folkvang it is called,  &#xD;&#xA;And there rules Freyja.  &#xD;&#xA;For the seats in the hall  &#xD;&#xA;Half of the slain  &#xD;&#xA;She chooses each day;  &#xD;&#xA;The other half is Odin's.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Gylfaginning (The Fooling Of Gylfe), Prose Edda by Snorri Sturluson][4], Wikisource&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The way I read the above quote, Freyja is the one that chooses and Odin and Valhalla receive the half &quot;of the slain&quot; that's left. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does Odin actually have a say? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/269/57&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/10/57&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://norse-mythology.org/concepts/death-and-the-afterlife/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4322" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="929" RevisionGUID="c4391c8c-5b06-4139-913c-23b3cbf0c668" CreationDate="2015-06-16T11:08:12.567" UserId="57" Comment="added 185 characters in body" Text="Ero Sɘnnin's [answer][1] in [How was it decided which warriors would go to Fólkvangr and which to Valhalla?][2] seems to suggest that Odin gets to choose who enters Valhalla: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Valhalla is presided over by Odin, and to gain entrance to it, one must be chosen by him and his valkyries, the “choosers of the fallen.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The only difference that is pointed out, is in the way that the dead are chosen to stay. Odin chooses for Valhalla, while Freya chooses for Folkvang.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This seems to be supported by Ero's (secondary) source: [Death and the Afterlife, Norse Mythology for Smart People][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the Gylfaginning seems to be painting a slightly different picture: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Folkvang it is called,  &#xD;&#xA;And there rules Freyja.  &#xD;&#xA;For the seats in the hall  &#xD;&#xA;Half of the slain  &#xD;&#xA;She chooses each day;  &#xD;&#xA;The other half is Odin's.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Gylfaginning (The Fooling Of Gylfe), Prose Edda by Snorri Sturluson][4], Wikisource&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The way I read the above quote, Freyja is the one that chooses and Odin and Valhalla receive the half &quot;of the slain&quot; that's left. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does Odin actually have a say? Or is Valhalla essentially the hall of Freyja's rejects?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/269/57&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/10/57&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://norse-mythology.org/concepts/death-and-the-afterlife/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4323" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="913" RevisionGUID="82ebf652-baff-43bc-b327-0a741c22f6e9" CreationDate="2015-06-16T11:12:53.873" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|sacrifice|aztec|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4327" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="929" RevisionGUID="2f3b373c-ee8c-4c95-8804-0b9081e63116" CreationDate="2015-06-16T11:50:13.993" UserId="57" Comment="edited body" Text="Ero Sɘnnin's [answer][1] in [How was it decided which warriors would go to Fólkvangr and which to Valhalla?][2] seems to suggest that Odin gets to choose who enters Valhalla: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Valhalla is presided over by Odin, and to gain entrance to it, one must be chosen by him and his valkyries, the “choosers of the fallen.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The only difference that is pointed out, is in the way that the dead are chosen to stay. Odin chooses for Valhalla, while Freya chooses for Folkvang.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This seems to be supported by Ero's (secondary) source: [Death and the Afterlife, Norse Mythology for Smart People][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the Gylfaginning seems to be painting a slightly different picture: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Folkvang it is called,  &#xD;&#xA;And there rules Freyja.  &#xD;&#xA;For the seats in the hall  &#xD;&#xA;Half of the slain  &#xD;&#xA;She chooses each day;  &#xD;&#xA;The other half is Odin's.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Gylfaginning (The Fooling Of Gylfe), Prose Edda by Snorri Sturluson][4], Wikisource&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The way I read the above quote, Freyja is the one who chooses, and Odin and Valhalla receive the &quot;half of the slain&quot; that's left. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does Odin actually have a say? Or is Valhalla essentially the hall of Freyja's rejects?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/269/57&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/10/57&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://norse-mythology.org/concepts/death-and-the-afterlife/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4328" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="930" RevisionGUID="906f82a9-ccf4-4e24-bec7-9a9b7f5bc842" CreationDate="2015-06-16T12:11:26.240" UserId="390" Text="The frontispiece to George Steiner's 1989 *Antigones* is a quote from J. Lempriere's 1797 *A Classical Dictionary*, &quot;Antigone, a daughter of Oedipuus, king of Thebes, by his mother Jocasta. She buried by night her brother Polynices, against the positive orders of Creon, who, when he heard of it, ordered her to be buried alive. She however killed herself before the sentence was executed; and Haemon, the king's son, who was passionately fond of her, and had not been able to obtain her pardon, killed himself on her grave.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We can assume that this is the *classical* view of Antigone's fate and that Steiner's book is the single best modern consideration of the play's significance and history. The plurality in Steiner's book title is deliberate and a tip of the hat to the many *Antigones* for their enduring fascination and many reinterpretations." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4329" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="927" RevisionGUID="ea63e24d-9f2d-442b-b9fa-2f1ee29d355d" CreationDate="2015-06-16T12:21:37.137" UserId="111" Comment="added tentatively the tag &quot;myth-identification&quot;" Text="|greek|myth-identification|etymology|mythohistory|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4330" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="931" RevisionGUID="70f98628-1b51-4fc0-b16a-7b7059f13f85" CreationDate="2015-06-16T19:12:48.730" UserId="161" Text="I can find no other story than the Sirens. They agree with the above by all aspects, that is:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Their father is either Acheloos (the river god) or Forkys (a sea deity) and their mother is either Chthon (Earth) or a Muse (usually Terpsechore).&#xD;&#xA; - They are not necessarily beautiful but their singing is delightful. I think I need not repeat the story from Odyssey where it describes that seamen were drowning in their attempt to reach for the sirens and how Odysseus himself got away with it.&#xD;&#xA; - According to a theory the name &quot;Siren- Σειρήναι&quot; comes from the phoenician root &quot;sir&quot; - to charm - as the myth itself is of asian origin (here is the connection with charm).&#xD;&#xA; - There is also a theory that Sirens are the &quot;Muses of the underworld&quot;, i.e. spirits of the world beyond, holding superhuman knowledge.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources: Elliniki Mithologia (Greek Mythology), Ekdotiki Athinon, vol.2 Gods&#xD;&#xA;The two theories are attributed to the names Marot (etymology/origin) and Buscher (Muses of the underwold)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4332" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="932" RevisionGUID="f6c991b5-345b-4715-858c-54bb6c15bb6a" CreationDate="2015-06-16T20:19:19.900" UserId="398" Text="Unfortunately, your Spanish teacher was wrong. Look under Lewis and Short II.C to see that canere (the ultimate root of enchant &gt; incantare &gt; in + cantare = frequentative of canere) was often used in Latin for spells. Under cantare III you'll see enchant that goes all the way back to the first prose writer in Latin, Cato the Elder (De Re Rustica 160.1).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The myth of the Sirens (as theodojo mentioned) was probably not the origin of singing = enchanting, but rather the other way around. For the power of music over humans, one need not look much further than Demodocus in the Odyssey whose singing made Odysseus weep (8.62-67). Furthermore, song, especially formal epic song, always began with an invocation to the Muses, daughters of Apollo and thus song was both religious and prophetic (remember Apollo was the god of prophecy, among other things).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For Hesiod, not only do is the poet a &quot;servant of the Muse&quot; (Hes. *Th.* 100), but the &quot;divine gift&quot; (*Th.* 93) of the Muse allows the poet to speak of things of the past and the future: &quot;they breathed a divine voice into me, so that I might glorify what will be and what was before (*Th*. 32).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources: Apart from Hesiod and Homer, good starts would be Stoddard's &quot;The Programmatic Message of the &quot;Kings and Singers&quot; Passage: Hesiod, &quot;Theogony&quot; 80-103&quot; in *TAPhA* 133 (2003): 1-16. See also Greg Nagy's &quot;Ancient Greek Poetry, Prophecy, and Concepts of Theory&quot; in Kugel's *Poetry and Prophecy: The Beginnings of a Literary Tradition*, Cornell University Press, 1990." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4333" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="933" RevisionGUID="30cd5b5a-84f6-4a4c-ac49-4e49617912cd" CreationDate="2015-06-16T20:29:08.020" UserId="398" Text="The site that michaelpri gives is incorrect. Here is the relevant passage in Hesiod, starting at line 116:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; First Chaos came to be, but next wide-bosomed Earth (Gaia), the ever-sure foundations of all the deathless ones who hold the peaks of snowy Olympus, and dim Tartarus in the depth of the wide-pathed Earth, and Love (Eros), fairest among the deathless gods, who unnerves the limbs and overcomes the mind and wise counsels of all gods and all men within them. From Chaos came forth Erebus and black Night (Nyx); but of Night were born Aether and Day (Hemera), whom she conceived and bare from union in love with Erebus. And Earth first bare starry Heaven (Ouranos, Latinized as Uranus), equal to herself, to cover her on every side, and to be an ever-sure abiding-place for the blessed gods." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4334" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="933" RevisionGUID="f1449c93-d0f8-44b4-9b8b-c0983b60d78b" CreationDate="2015-06-17T11:09:03.860" UserId="57" Comment="moved source of the quote from the comments" Text="The site that michaelpri gives is incorrect. Here is the relevant passage in Hesiod, starting at line 116:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; First Chaos came to be, but next wide-bosomed Earth (Gaia), the ever-sure foundations of all the deathless ones who hold the peaks of snowy Olympus, and dim Tartarus in the depth of the wide-pathed Earth, and Love (Eros), fairest among the deathless gods, who unnerves the limbs and overcomes the mind and wise counsels of all gods and all men within them. From Chaos came forth Erebus and black Night (Nyx); but of Night were born Aether and Day (Hemera), whom she conceived and bare from union in love with Erebus. And Earth first bare starry Heaven (Ouranos, Latinized as Uranus), equal to herself, to cover her on every side, and to be an ever-sure abiding-place for the blessed gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Theogony of Hesiod, translated by Hugh G. Evelyn-White][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4335" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="926" RevisionGUID="d3e41499-2c6a-467e-bfa5-cb6f8cadcaff" CreationDate="2015-06-17T17:50:38.767" UserId="398" Comment="added link" Text="The myth you're looking for is first outlined in Hesiod's *Theogony*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Theogony 535-558:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [535] For when the gods and mortal men had a dispute at Mecone, even then Prometheus was forward to cut up a great ox and set portions before them, trying to deceive the mind of Zeus. Before the rest he set flesh and inner parts thick with fat upon the hide, covering them with an ox paunch; [540] but for Zeus he put the white bones dressed up with cunning art and covered with shining fat. Then the father of men and of gods said to him: “Son of Iapetus, most glorious of all lords, good sir, how unfairly you have divided the portions!”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [545] So said Zeus whose wisdom is everlasting, rebuking him. But wily Prometheus answered him, smiling softly and not forgetting his cunning trick: “Zeus, most glorious and greatest of the eternal gods, take which ever of these portions your heart within you bids.” [550] So he said, thinking trickery. But Zeus, whose wisdom is everlasting, saw and failed not to perceive the trick, and in his heart he thought mischief against mortal men which also was to be fulfilled. With both hands he took up the white fat and was angry at heart, and wrath came to his spirit [555] when he saw the white ox-bones craftily tricked out: and because of this the tribes of men upon earth burn white bones to the deathless gods upon fragrant altars. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Translated by Hugh G. Evelyn-White](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hes.+Th.+535-560&amp;fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4337" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="934" RevisionGUID="9a6f2632-20b8-4b51-8e63-86922ef8903d" CreationDate="2015-06-17T18:36:10.550" UserId="449" Text="As with anything in Hinduism, there is an overabundance of sources rather than a lack of one. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Taking examples from just one text (Abirami Andhadhi, a poem on Abirami which is another name for Parvati (or Gauri, the consort of Shiva as mentioned in the other answer): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The very first stanza of the poem describes the various similes to the **red** colour of the Goddess: the rising sun in the morning (உதிக்கின்ற செங்கதிர்), the red kumkum kept on the forehead (உச்சித்திலகம்), a ruby stone (மாணிக்கம்), the flower of pomegranate (மாதுளம்போது), all these are given as examples of how her skin looks. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But then, a few verses later (v:15), the poem compares her to a &quot;**green** parrot&quot; (பைங்கிளியே ), and then later (v:70) calls her someone who appears in a &quot;green that denotes a joyful land&quot; (மண் களிக்கும் பச்சை வண்ணமும் ஆகி ... தோன்றிய எம்பெருமாட்டி).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The best of all is verse 21 though, which calls her &quot;பிங்கலை நீலி செய்யாள் வெளியாள் பசும்பெண்கொடி&quot;:    &#xD;&#xA;* பிங்கலை refers to a yellow or **golden**-skinned person    &#xD;&#xA;* நீலி directly translates to &quot;**blue**-coloured&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;* செய்யாள் translates to &quot;**red**-coloured&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;* வெளியாள் translates to &quot;**white**-coloured&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;* பசும் பெண் கொடி calls her &quot;**green** coloured      &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All within a single line!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And this poem is not a special case either: most of these references go back to older texts (eg. Lalitha Sahasra Nama or Sankara's Soundarya Lahari), which too assign varying colours to the Goddess. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And this isn't limited to Goddess Parvati too. Shiva gets white, black or blue skin in different places, Vishnu goes through black, blue, red and green in different texts, and so on. One of Vishnu's avatars, Krishna, actually directly translates to &quot;the dark-skinned one&quot;, but even he usually gets blue-skin in illustrations, as the question mentions. (My theory is that this is actually linguistic misunderstanding: the original Sanskrit calls him &quot;neela&quot; coloured, which back then refered to any dark colour, black or dark blue or dark green; by the time of these illustrations though, the common languages had &quot;neela&quot; meaning just blue.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reasons for this can be given from two viewpoints:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* from a historical view, the reason there's so much variation is (a) these texts were generally written by poets in the Bhakthi tradition, which is all about emotion and personal connection with God rather than analytical accuracy (b) Hinduism has absorbed various local beliefs through time, and allowed them all place within itself, turning those regional Gods into forms of the original Hindu Gods (so for eg. when Maariyamma மாரியம்மா a Tamil regional Goddess was taken in as a form of Goddess Parvati, Parvati acquired her dark skin as one of her colours). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* from a philosophical view, it is a constant reminder to not get attached to the form of the God, that names and forms (Naama-Roopa) - even those of Gods - are only products of Maya, and the Truth is beyond such limitations. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4338" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="935" RevisionGUID="0c4b1b37-f0eb-49cd-a238-44fa8a4b2fc2" CreationDate="2015-06-17T23:10:13.127" UserDisplayName="user450" Text="In [Roman Mars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Mars)'s podcast, [99% Invisible](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99%25_Invisible), in *[Episode 79: Symphony of Sirens, Revisited](http://99percentinvisible.org/episode/episode-79-symphony-of-sirens-revisited/)*, from 00:23-01:00, Mars recounts the Sirens scene in Homer's *The Odyssey*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In Homer's Odyssey, there's a story where Odysseus and his men are traveling near an area where sirens are known to inhabit. And Odysseus knows that if he hears the sirens' song, his ship is going to sink. But he still wants to hear what they sound like, so he comes up with a plan: Odysseus has his men tie him to the mast so that he can't take control of the ship. Then Odysseus has his men fill their own ears with beeswax so they can't hear anything.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The plan works: Odysseus gets to hear the sirens' call, his men don't, and they sail on to safety, with Odysseus *pleading* with his crew to crash the boat the whole way.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What I'm confused about is that Mars says that&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Odysseus wanted to hear what the Sirens sound like.&#xD;&#xA;2. He told his men to put beeswax in their ears.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But I don't remember **ever** learning that he actually *wanted* to hear what the Sirens sound like, nor do I remember any beeswax being involved. Which is the original? Or, are there multiple versions of the *Odyssey*, all just as valid?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4339" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="935" RevisionGUID="0c4b1b37-f0eb-49cd-a238-44fa8a4b2fc2" CreationDate="2015-06-17T23:10:13.127" UserDisplayName="user450" Text="Correct version of the Sirens scene in &quot;The Odyssey&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4340" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="935" RevisionGUID="0c4b1b37-f0eb-49cd-a238-44fa8a4b2fc2" CreationDate="2015-06-17T23:10:13.127" UserDisplayName="user450" Text="|greek|odyssey|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4341" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="936" RevisionGUID="3b4df018-dfdb-4c83-8fa3-3c884f98d5d2" CreationDate="2015-06-18T01:20:47.800" UserId="398" Text="There is but only one *Odyssey*, and I've reproduced below the relevant passages [using Butler's accessible translation](http://sacred-texts.com/cla/homer/ody/ody12.htm):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(*Od*. 12.39-54)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'First you will come to the Sirens who enchant all who come near them. If any one unwarily draws in too close and hears the singing of the Sirens, his wife and children will never welcome him home again, for they sit in a green field and warble him to death with the sweetness of their song. There is a great heap of dead men's bones lying all around, with the flesh still rotting off them. Therefore pass these Sirens by, and **stop your men's ears with wax** that none of them may hear; **but if you like you can listen yourself**, for you may get the men to bind you as you stand upright on a cross-piece half way up the mast, and they must lash the rope's ends to the mast itself, that you may have the pleasure of listening. If you beg and pray the men to unloose you, then they must bind you faster.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(*Od*. 12.158-164)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;First she said we were to keep clear of the Sirens, who sit and sing most beautifully in a field of flowers; **but she said I might hear them myself so long as no one else did. Therefore, take me and bind me** to the crosspiece half way up the mast; bind me as I stand upright, with a bond so fast that I cannot possibly break away, and lash the rope's ends to the mast itself. If I beg and pray you to set me free, then bind me more tightly still.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The essential logic is that Circe said ordered him to be bound *if* he wanted to hear it. Odysseus relayed these instructions to his men, and therefore he must have wanted to hear the song.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Secondly, the word for wax here is κηρός [kēros], which is bees-wax.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Just in case you had learned a different ancient version that was not the *Odyssey*, I checked Ps.-Apollodorus' version, and it merely summarizes Homer's version without any variants:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Pseudo-Apollodorus, *Bibliotecha*, E.7.19](http://www.theoi.com/Text/ApollodorusE.html#7)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sailing by them, Ulysses [i.e. Odysseus] wished to hear their song, so by Circe's advice he stopped the ears of his comrades with wax, and ordered that he should himself be bound to the mast. And being persuaded by the Sirens to linger, he begged to be released, but they bound him the more, and so he sailed past." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4342" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="934" RevisionGUID="06169eb3-30d2-4a3c-b2ad-4c14bd0dd304" CreationDate="2015-06-18T03:33:56.177" UserId="79" Comment="edited body" Text="As with anything in Hinduism, there is an overabundance of sources rather than a lack of one. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Taking examples from just one text; Abirami Andhadhi, a poem on Abirami which is another name for Parvati (or Gauri, the consort of Shiva as mentioned in the other answer): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The very first stanza of the poem describes the various similes to the **red** colour of the Goddess: the rising sun in the morning (உதிக்கின்ற செங்கதிர்), the red kumkum kept on the forehead (உச்சித்திலகம்), a ruby stone (மாணிக்கம்), the flower of pomegranate (மாதுளம்போது), all these are given as examples of how her skin looks. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But then, a few verses later (v:15), the poem compares her to a &quot;**green** parrot&quot; (பைங்கிளியே ), and then later (v:70) calls her someone who appears in a &quot;green that denotes a joyful land&quot; (மண் களிக்கும் பச்சை வண்ணமும் ஆகி ... தோன்றிய எம்பெருமாட்டி).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The best of all is verse 21 though, which calls her &quot;பிங்கலை நீலி செய்யாள் வெளியாள் பசும்பெண்கொடி&quot;:    &#xD;&#xA;* பிங்கலை refers to a yellow or **golden**-skinned person    &#xD;&#xA;* நீலி directly translates to &quot;**blue**-coloured&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;* செய்யாள் translates to &quot;**red**-coloured&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;* வெளியாள் translates to &quot;**white**-coloured&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;* பசும் பெண் கொடி calls her &quot;**green** coloured      &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All within a single line!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And this poem is not a special case either: most of these references go back to older texts (eg. Lalitha Sahasra Nama or Sankara's Soundarya Lahari), which too assign varying colours to the Goddess. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And this isn't limited to Goddess Parvati too. Shiva gets white, black or blue skin in different places, Vishnu goes through black, blue, red and green in different texts, and so on. One of Vishnu's avatars, Krishna, actually directly translates to &quot;the dark-skinned one&quot;, but even he usually gets blue-skin in illustrations, as the question mentions. (My theory is that this is actually linguistic misunderstanding: the original Sanskrit calls him &quot;neela&quot; coloured, which back then refered to any dark colour, black or dark blue or dark green; by the time of these illustrations though, the common languages had &quot;neela&quot; meaning just blue.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reasons for this can be given from two viewpoints:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* from a historical view, the reason there's so much variation is (a) these texts were generally written by poets in the Bhakthi tradition, which is all about emotion and personal connection with God rather than analytical accuracy (b) Hinduism has absorbed various local beliefs through time, and allowed them all place within itself, turning those regional Gods into forms of the original Hindu Gods (so for eg. when Maariyamma மாரியம்மா a Tamil regional Goddess was taken in as a form of Goddess Parvati, Parvati acquired her dark skin as one of her colours). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* from a philosophical view, it is a constant reminder to not get attached to the form of the God, that names and forms (Naama-Roopa) - even those of Gods - are only products of Maya, and the Truth is beyond such limitations. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4343" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="146" RevisionGUID="d9f8af14-6a2c-4e1c-b08b-b1c4e5c3f28f" CreationDate="2015-06-18T07:10:47.197" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|symbolism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4344" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="82" RevisionGUID="0e3660aa-4cbe-4b28-b103-e6d47e1e0e92" CreationDate="2015-06-18T07:13:13.613" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|monomyth|mythography|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4345" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="146" RevisionGUID="4917d15b-7f57-48da-86ea-91e36add0282" CreationDate="2015-06-18T07:30:13.297" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|symbolism|olympians|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4346" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="603" RevisionGUID="270e4783-b709-4c37-a4d5-46b13837a2bf" CreationDate="2015-06-18T07:30:37.903" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|olympians|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4347" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="118" RevisionGUID="d1d2a56a-e5d3-45b2-9836-84daabf888a0" CreationDate="2015-06-18T07:31:03.817" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|titans|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4348" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="729" RevisionGUID="3e83a112-4bbc-44e0-adbf-5199895a6221" CreationDate="2015-06-18T07:31:51.613" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|titans|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4349" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="11" RevisionGUID="14cc9936-495c-44ba-8ef3-633cf0094a72" CreationDate="2015-06-18T07:31:59.267" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|olympians|titans|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4350" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="225" RevisionGUID="878d9e63-8dfa-4567-880d-2dd5ce18abec" CreationDate="2015-06-18T07:32:28.397" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|zeus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4351" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="129" RevisionGUID="fd6906d8-170f-48dc-9c43-c6d6aa0b4803" CreationDate="2015-06-18T07:32:38.627" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|sun|apollo|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4352" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="145" RevisionGUID="25d892ab-dabb-4fce-ac48-2093283e12bf" CreationDate="2015-06-18T09:53:51.793" UserId="57" Comment="added 20 characters in body" Text="Apollo didn't have any solar properties in Homeric times, and he and Helios were clearly distinct entities. Helios is extensively discussed in Book XII of the Odyssey, for example. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the 5th century BCE and onwards Helios started to be identified with Apollo. An early reference to the fusion of the two beings can be found in fragment 781 of Euripidis' Faethon, where the poet tells us that Helios is &quot;rightly called Apollo&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ὦ καλλιφεγγὲς Ἥλι᾿, ὥς μ᾿ ἀπώλεσας καὶ τόνδ᾿ Ἀπόλλων δ᾿ ἐν βροτοῖς ὀρθῶς καλῇ, ὅστις τὰ σιγῶντ᾿ ἀνόματ᾿ οἶδε δαιμόνων. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The association became a lot more commonplace during Hellenistic times. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4354" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="937" RevisionGUID="09391065-8fd8-4e98-b8a0-1ecf5625b398" CreationDate="2015-06-18T13:19:12.320" UserId="57" Text="In the Gylfaginning, Snorri Sturluson calls Vidar &quot;the silent asa&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 29\. Vidar is the name of the silent asa. He has a very thick shoe, and he is the strongest next after Thor. From him the gods have much help in all hard tasks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Gylfaginning (The Fooling Of Gylfe), Prose Edda by Snorri Sturluson](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning), Wikisource&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The one source I checked claims we don't know why that is: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Elsewhere, Vidar is called the “silent god,” although no explanation for this epithet is given.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Vidar, Norse Mythology for Smart People](http://norse-mythology.org/vidar/)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is that true? And if so, do we at least have any plausible theories for Vidar's silence?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4355" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="937" RevisionGUID="09391065-8fd8-4e98-b8a0-1ecf5625b398" CreationDate="2015-06-18T13:19:12.320" UserId="57" Text="Why is Vidar silent?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4356" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="937" RevisionGUID="09391065-8fd8-4e98-b8a0-1ecf5625b398" CreationDate="2015-06-18T13:19:12.320" UserId="57" Text="|norse|gylfaginning|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4358" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="938" RevisionGUID="2131a865-7d2c-4c20-8af7-0c97cfb1b92b" CreationDate="2015-06-18T14:44:42.580" UserId="111" Text="The only real role of Víđarr in the norse mythology seems to be to avenge his father Odin during Ragnarokr by slaughtering Fenrir. In a footnote to his article *[Le dieu scandinave Víđarr](http://www.jstor.org/stable/23667105)* , Georges Dumézil hints that it may be one explanation for his silence:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;On  a  proposé  d'autres explications  pour &#xD;&#xA;le  silence de  Vidarr;  ce  serait,  par  exemple,  une  prescription  initiatique,  Vidarr ayant besoin  d'une  «initiation» pour son exploit. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;which translates roughly as: *&quot;Other explanations for the silence of Vidarr have been proposed: it could, for instance, be an initiation requirement, Vidarr needing an initiation in preparation for his achievement.&quot;*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interestingly, another story in which Víđarr can be found is the *[Lokasenna](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda/Lokasenna)* (Loki's Wrangling). This story relates a banquet that many gods attend (including Víđarr), the banquet is eventually interrupted by Loki and the poem turns basically into an insult contest between the gods attending the banquet and Loki. With one notable exception: Víđarr, who says nothing, but stands up to make a space for Loki, and pour him a drink.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It may be possible that Víđarr is then referred to as &quot;the silent one&quot; for not taking part in that verbal joust." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4359" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="938" RevisionGUID="9a627a4a-ce6c-44bf-8611-cc80cc522298" CreationDate="2015-06-18T14:57:39.240" UserId="111" Comment="added 31 characters in body" Text="The only real role of Víđarr in the norse mythology seems to be to avenge his father Odin during Ragnarokr by slaughtering Fenrir. In a footnote to his article *[Le dieu scandinave Víđarr](http://www.jstor.org/stable/23667105)* , Georges Dumézil hints that it may be one explanation for his silence:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;On  a  proposé  d'autres explications  pour &#xD;&#xA;le  silence de  Vidarr;  ce  serait,  par  exemple,  une  prescription  initiatique,  Vidarr ayant besoin  d'une  «initiation» pour son exploit. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;which translates roughly as: *&quot;Other explanations for the silence of Vidarr have been proposed: it could, for instance, be an initiation requirement, Vidarr needing an initiation in preparation for his achievement.&quot;*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interestingly, another story in which Víđarr can be found is the *[Lokasenna](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda/Lokasenna)* (Loki's Wrangling). This story relates a banquet that many gods attend (including Víđarr), the banquet is eventually interrupted by Loki and the poem turns basically into an insult contest between the gods attending the banquet and Loki. With one notable exception: Víđarr, who says nothing, but stands up to make a space for Loki (at the request of his father), and pour him a drink.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It may be possible that Víđarr is then referred to as &quot;the silent one&quot; for not taking part in that verbal joust." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4365" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="940" RevisionGUID="7805fe1d-dbca-486b-b9ca-ba77a4757b93" CreationDate="2015-06-18T18:37:17.687" UserId="398" Text="The other great &quot;adventure&quot; besides the Argonaut journey was the boar hunt. The most famous was the Calydonian Boar Hunt. This one is a bit more difficult in the ancient details, since no epic exists of it. Nevertheless, it is attested as early as the Iliad.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First, all primary sources for it can be found on [Theoi](http://theoi.com). I'll list the main ones.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Homer, *Iliad* 9.543ff.&#xD;&#xA; - Hesiod, *Catalogue of Women*, fr. 98&#xD;&#xA; - Ps.-Apollodorus, *Bibliotecha*, 1.66&#xD;&#xA; - Ovid, *Metamorphoses*, 8.269&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The point was to kill an oversized boar which was ravaging the land around Calydon. The king, Oenaus, put a bounty out on it, and the most famous Greek heroes of the time (barring Heracles) joined in, including:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Meleager, son of Oenaus, and the subject&#xD;&#xA; - Castor and Pollux, twin sons of Zeus (though one was said to be born of his mortal father Tyndareus); these two were always adventuring about, and they also joined in the Argonaut quest (they're also the &quot;Gemini&quot; in the sky);&#xD;&#xA; - Jason, leader of the Argonauts as outlined by Yannis;&#xD;&#xA; - Iolaus, most famously known as the side-kick of Heracles;&#xD;&#xA; - Peleus, father of Achilles, the greatest Greek warrior to fight in the Trojan War;&#xD;&#xA; - Theseus, slayer of the Minotaur and hero of Athens;&#xD;&#xA; - Atalanta, with whom Meleager fell in love; also known as the quickest woman in the ancient world, and the only woman ever mentioned in these adventures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The prime hero of the story is Meleager, and this adventuring ultimately led to his demise.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Ps.-Apollodorus, *Bibliotecha* 1.66, translated by Aldrich with emendations by me)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When they had gathered, Oeneus entertained them for nine days. On the tenth day, Kepheus and Ankaios and some of the others refused contemptuously to go out hunting with a woman [i.e. Atalanta], but Meleager...wanted to make a child with Atalanta, and so compelled the men to join the hunt with her. When they had encircled the boar, the animal killed Hyleus and Ankaios, and Peleus accidentally speared Eurytion [king of Phthia] with his javelin. Atalanta was first to hit the boar, in the back with an arrow. Amphiaraus then got it in the eye, and Meleager killed it with a blow on the flank. When he received the skin, he gave it to Atalanta. But the sons of Thestius, who considered it disgraceful that a woman should get the trophy where men were involved, took the skin from her, saying that it was properly theirs by right of birth, if Meleager chose not to accept it. Outraged by this, Meleager slew them and again gave the skin to Atalanta. But Althaea, in grief over the death of her brothers, set fire to the brand [that the Fates declared when consumed would end the life of Meleager, otherwise he would have lived forever], and Meleager died on the spot.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another variant preserved by Ovid's *Metamorphoses* is that Meleager instead killed his brothers Plexippus and Toxeus, who were the ones that took it from Atalanta. This makes better sense out of the &quot;birthright&quot; claim." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4369" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="17" RevisionGUID="d03287f3-d396-4bb0-8c5c-44c6b9ed2110" CreationDate="2015-06-19T06:53:07.917" UserId="-1" Comment="fixed misuse of code tags" Text="The word &quot;Titan&quot; is used to denote a class of mythological entities that existed before &quot;Gods&quot; were born and Titans are usually used to describe the creation of the world. All titans were born from Oranos (Sky) and Gaia (Earth), which were the first mythological creatures to be created when the world was formed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;After them, Cronus was born, the cunning, youngest and the most terrifying of his her children (Gaia's) and hated his strong father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cronus was one of their children and since Oranos considered Cronus monstrous, he imprisoned him in the depths of the earth. Cronus was able to escape and soon seized power and became the king of the Titans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All mythological creatures of that generation are called Titans. Gods are the children of the Titans. Specifically, Zeus was born from Cronus and Rea. Since Cronus feared that some time his childrens would try to seize power, he would eat them, but Rea managed to save Zeus and he tried to seize power when he grew up. The series of events that followed is known as *Titanomachy* (battle of the Titans), in which the Gods defeated the Titans and became the kings of the world." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4370" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="17" RevisionGUID="d03287f3-d396-4bb0-8c5c-44c6b9ed2110" CreationDate="2015-06-19T06:53:07.917" Comment="Proposed by anonymous approved by 62, 111 edit id of 212" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4372" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="941" RevisionGUID="b7160817-7cc2-451c-a6bf-7dd288b75b44" CreationDate="2015-06-19T07:53:07.237" UserId="57" Text="Thessalonike was the daughter of Phillip II of Macedon, and a half sister to Alexander III of Macedon. Legend has it that when Alexander died, Thessalonike &quot;became a mermaid passing judgment on mariners&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There exists a popular Greek legend which talks about a mermaid who lived in the Aegean for hundreds of years who was thought to be Thessalonike. The legend states that Alexander, in his quest for the Fountain of Immortality, retrieved with great exertion a flask of immortal water with which he bathed his sister's hair. When Alexander died his grief-stricken sister attempted to end her life by jumping into the sea. Instead of drowning, however, she became a mermaid passing judgment on mariners throughout the centuries and across the seven seas. To the sailors who encountered her she would always pose the same question: &quot;Is Alexander the king alive?&quot; (Greek: Ζει ο βασιλιάς Αλέξανδρος;), to which the correct answer would be &quot;He lives and reigns and conquers the world&quot; (Greek: Ζει και βασιλεύει, και τον κόσμο κυριεύει!). Given this answer she would allow the ship and her crew to sail safely away in calm seas. Any other answer would transform her into the raging Gorgon, bent on sending the ship and every sailor on board to the bottom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Thessalonike of Macedon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thessalonike_of_Macedon), Wikipedia&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Almost every version I've read mentions Alexander's search for the fountain of youth, which points to the legend being part of the  [Alexander romance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_romance). However, I haven't been able to pinpoint a possible source for the legend or even get a vague idea of when it first appeared.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Help?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4373" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="941" RevisionGUID="b7160817-7cc2-451c-a6bf-7dd288b75b44" CreationDate="2015-06-19T07:53:07.237" UserId="57" Text="What is the oldest known version of the Thessalonike legend?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4374" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="941" RevisionGUID="b7160817-7cc2-451c-a6bf-7dd288b75b44" CreationDate="2015-06-19T07:53:07.237" UserId="57" Text="|greek|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4375" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="942" RevisionGUID="3dd562d6-61f6-4736-afb8-6091c3506253" CreationDate="2015-06-19T08:02:43.317" UserId="111" Text="This is probably not a very satisfying answer but it seems that his name isn't mentioned in any account of this story, and knowing that he comes from Jotunheim doesn't really help narrowing down the possibilities.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One thing to consider is the way the plowing of Denmark is related in the *[Ynglinga saga](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Heimskringla/Ynglinga_Saga)* (which is the first chapter of the *Heimskringla*, which was also written by Snorri Sturluson):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then he [Odin] sent Gefion across the sound to the north to discover new countries; and she came to King Gylve, who gave her a ploughgate of land. Then she went to Jotunheim, and bore four sons to a giant, and transformed them into a yoke of oxen.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here it is explicitly said that she had those four sons precisely for the purpose of having them plough the land of Gylfi. From that, one can assume that which Giant fathered them didn't really matter to her, as long as it was a Giant, hence, maybe, why the Giant remained anonymous." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4376" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="941" RevisionGUID="d49ea2af-5550-42a2-b1b9-6ba08a626ae2" CreationDate="2015-06-19T08:42:01.267" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4378" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="941" RevisionGUID="6ee9fdf9-18a4-4e73-95ae-e0bc45e0f9c1" CreationDate="2015-06-19T11:54:12.253" UserId="57" Comment="added 27 characters in body" Text="Thessalonike was the daughter of Phillip II of Macedon, and a half sister to Alexander III of Macedon. Legend has it that when Alexander died, Thessalonike &quot;became a mermaid passing judgment on mariners&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There exists a popular Greek legend which talks about a mermaid who lived in the Aegean for hundreds of years who was thought to be Thessalonike. The legend states that Alexander, in his quest for the Fountain of Immortality, retrieved with great exertion a flask of immortal water with which he bathed his sister's hair. When Alexander died his grief-stricken sister attempted to end her life by jumping into the sea. Instead of drowning, however, she became a mermaid passing judgment on mariners throughout the centuries and across the seven seas. To the sailors who encountered her she would always pose the same question: &quot;Is Alexander the king alive?&quot; (Greek: Ζει ο βασιλιάς Αλέξανδρος;), to which the correct answer would be &quot;He lives and reigns and conquers the world&quot; (Greek: Ζει και βασιλεύει, και τον κόσμο κυριεύει!). Given this answer she would allow the ship and her crew to sail safely away in calm seas. Any other answer would transform her into the raging Gorgon, bent on sending the ship and every sailor on board to the bottom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Thessalonike of Macedon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thessalonike_of_Macedon#The_legend_of_Thessalonike), Wikipedia&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Almost every version I've read mentions Alexander's search for the fountain of youth, which points to the legend being part of the  [Alexander romance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_romance). However, I haven't been able to pinpoint a possible source for the legend or even get a vague idea of when it first appeared.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Help?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4380" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="943" RevisionGUID="43fb01a1-406c-4723-b1d3-7dc785198ffe" CreationDate="2015-06-19T15:09:07.483" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="In the old testament, God accepts Abel's offering but rejects Cain's:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering, but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Genesis 4:2-5][1])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why does God do this?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%204&amp;version=NIV" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4381" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="943" RevisionGUID="43fb01a1-406c-4723-b1d3-7dc785198ffe" CreationDate="2015-06-19T15:09:07.483" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="Why did god prefer Abel's offering to Cain's?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4382" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="943" RevisionGUID="43fb01a1-406c-4723-b1d3-7dc785198ffe" CreationDate="2015-06-19T15:09:07.483" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4383" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="943" RevisionGUID="d7270a4c-bc33-4791-bf9d-a7a627ebf6da" CreationDate="2015-06-19T18:04:39.857" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 1 character in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="In the Old Testament, God accepts Abel's offering but rejects Cain's:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering, but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Genesis 4:2-5][1])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why does God do this?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%204&amp;version=NIV" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4384" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="943" RevisionGUID="d7270a4c-bc33-4791-bf9d-a7a627ebf6da" CreationDate="2015-06-19T18:04:39.857" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 1 character in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Why did God prefer Abel's offering to Cain's?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4385" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="943" RevisionGUID="d7270a4c-bc33-4791-bf9d-a7a627ebf6da" CreationDate="2015-06-19T18:04:39.857" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 1 character in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|judeo-christian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4386" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="944" RevisionGUID="3537ddc2-5ec9-46cb-8a2c-aa2337fba271" CreationDate="2015-06-19T18:18:55.693" UserId="398" Text="There still remains much controversy on this question. In fact, there are books written devoted to just this narrative. It's frankly impossible to answer, however, I've outlined some of the theories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the surface, god prefers blood sacrifices. Surely we must have, at least at some layer, some etiological myth that explains why the ancient Hebrews used lambs, bulls, and birds for sacrifices instead of more mundane objects like vegetables.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Others have noted that it may preserve a tradition of backlash against the introduction of agriculture in the region. Abel's offerings would be the offerings of a semi-nomadic shepherd, while Cain's is indicative of a farmer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some like Frazer thinks this is a fertility narrative, and God's rejection has nothing to do with the original story except to serve as a device for moving the narrative. The real story is the slaughter of Abel, whose blood &quot;fertilizes&quot; the earth. This is apparent in the Greek translation (which actually may precede the *current*, Masoretic text of the Old Testament, or at least is a translation of an earlier Hebrew text), which has Cain and Abel in a field, and—in both Greek and Hebrew—the earth &quot;opened her mouth to receive [Abel's] blood,&quot; which offers evidence of fertilizing the field. As Hooke notes, the Mark of Cain is symbolic of a larger plan of Yahweh's, that this was *meant* to happen, probably so not as to condemn all farmers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hooke also points out some Near Eastern parallels, though they're rather tenuous. One is the Babylonian New Year Festival, in which after slaughtering a lamb, two priests smear blood on the walls of a shrine, &quot;after which they are obliged to flee into the...desert until the Festival is over, because they are defiled by their ritual act.&quot; Instead of a lamb, though, the ancient Hebrews may have sacrificed a human, though this again seems far-fetched to me.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ancient commentators, writing long afterward, would not have thought of this. Indeed, most, like Philo or Didymus or even Hellenistic Jewish writings, state or imply that Cain's offerings were rejected because *Cain himself* was evil, and thus warranted rejection. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some starting points for further research:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;S. H. Hooke 1939. &quot;Cain and Abel,&quot; in *Folklore* vol. 50 no. 1 pp. 58–65.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;G. D. Hornblower 1944. &quot;Cain and Abel: The Choice of Kind of Sacrifice,&quot; in *Man* vol. 44 pp. 45–46.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;E. A. Speiser 1964. *Genesis: Introduction, Translation, and Notes.* Anchor Bible Commentary. Doubleday.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;D. Bergant 1992. *The Collegeville Bible Commentary: Old Testament.* Liturgical Press.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;J. Byron 2011. *Cain and Abel in Text and Tradition: Jewish and Christian Interpretations of the First Sibling Rivalry.&quot; Brill." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4387" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="944" RevisionGUID="f0d51689-6084-4c6e-80f9-7b075523f880" CreationDate="2015-06-19T18:33:37.553" UserId="398" Comment="added 121 characters in body" Text="There still remains much controversy on this question. In fact, there are books written devoted to just this narrative. It's frankly impossible to answer, however, I've outlined some of the theories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the surface, god prefers blood sacrifices. Surely we must have, at least at some layer, some etiological myth that explains why the ancient Hebrews used lambs, bulls, and birds for sacrifices instead of more mundane objects like vegetables.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Others have noted that it may preserve a tradition of backlash against the introduction of agriculture in the region. Abel's offerings would be the offerings of a semi-nomadic shepherd, while Cain's is indicative of a farmer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some like Frazer thinks this is a fertility narrative, and God's rejection has nothing to do with the original story except to serve as a device for moving the narrative. The real story is the slaughter of Abel, whose blood &quot;fertilizes&quot; the earth. This is apparent in the Greek translation (which actually may precede the *current*, Masoretic text of the Old Testament, or at least is a translation of an earlier Hebrew text), which has Cain and Abel in a field, and—in both Greek and Hebrew—the earth &quot;opened her mouth to receive [Abel's] blood,&quot; which offers evidence of fertilizing the field. As Hooke notes, the Mark of Cain is symbolic of a larger plan of Yahweh's, that this was *meant* to happen, probably so not as to condemn all farmers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hooke also points out some Near Eastern parallels, though they're rather tenuous. One is the Babylonian New Year Festival, in which after slaughtering a lamb, two priests smear blood on the walls of a shrine, &quot;after which they are obliged to flee into the...desert until the Festival is over, because they are defiled by their ritual act.&quot; Instead of a lamb, though, the ancient Hebrews may have sacrificed a human, though this again seems far-fetched to me.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ancient commentators, writing long afterward, would not have thought of this. Indeed, most, like Philo or Didymus or even Hellenistic Jewish writings, state or imply that Cain's offerings were rejected because *Cain himself* was evil, and thus warranted rejection. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some starting points for further research:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;J. D. Frazer 1918. *Folklore in the Old Testament: Studies in Comparative Religion, Legend, and Law.* MacMillan &amp; Co.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;S. H. Hooke 1939. &quot;Cain and Abel,&quot; in *Folklore* vol. 50 no. 1 pp. 58–65.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;G. D. Hornblower 1944. &quot;Cain and Abel: The Choice of Kind of Sacrifice,&quot; in *Man* vol. 44 pp. 45–46.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;E. A. Speiser 1964. *Genesis: Introduction, Translation, and Notes.* Anchor Bible Commentary. Doubleday.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;D. Bergant 1992. *The Collegeville Bible Commentary: Old Testament.* Liturgical Press.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;J. Byron 2011. *Cain and Abel in Text and Tradition: Jewish and Christian Interpretations of the First Sibling Rivalry.&quot; Brill." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4388" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="945" RevisionGUID="9f49998b-c559-427f-9e1d-14c8fb80686f" CreationDate="2015-06-19T19:41:30.160" UserId="183" Text="In the [Gylfaginning](http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning ), it is said that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The sixth is Freyja, who is ranked with Frigg. She is wedded to the man whose name is Oder; their daughter's name is Hnos, and she is so fair that all things fair and precious are called, from her name, Hnos. Oder went far away. Freyja weeps for him, but her tears are red gold. Freyja has many names, and the reason therefor is that she changed her name among the various nations to which she came in search of Oder.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are a few other mentions of Oder (commonly called Óðr) in Norse mythology, but I can't seem to find an explanation for this journeys.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why does Óðr travel?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: There are theories that Óðr represents Odin, who travels frequently - which would solve the problem - but I am interested in any information that does *not* rely on those theories." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4389" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="945" RevisionGUID="9f49998b-c559-427f-9e1d-14c8fb80686f" CreationDate="2015-06-19T19:41:30.160" UserId="183" Text="Why does Óðr (Oder) travel away from Freyja?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4390" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="945" RevisionGUID="9f49998b-c559-427f-9e1d-14c8fb80686f" CreationDate="2015-06-19T19:41:30.160" UserId="183" Text="|norse|gylfaginning|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4391" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="946" RevisionGUID="6a0146db-ad9e-4ccb-814e-c2d6e3c46983" CreationDate="2015-06-20T01:25:36.433" UserId="461" Text="Offering and the one who gives offering are not separated. If the offerer is defiled, the offering is defiled too.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Your feeling, your thoughts, your deeds, your knowledge and everything of you have impacts on the offering.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On Leviticus, God instructs how you make various offerings on various situation: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When you offer fine flours as a gift to God (Lev 2): It must be 'fine' flours and it's not easy to grind fine flours especially in the old times. He also has to pour oil on it. And again, it's not easy to extract oil in the old times. If the offerer is with a thankful heart, he will do it with a joy and it won't be a chore to him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And sin offering via animal sacrifices (Lev 4): the sacrificer puts his hands on the animal, and kills the animal by himself. It signifies that even though he should be dead because of his sin, but the animal is killed on behalf of him and his sin. He repents while doing so and it's accepted. If not, it's not an offering but a slaughter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These knowledge are expressed throughout the whole Bible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, the New Testament mentions Abel. Heb 11:4 says, 'By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice.'&#xD;&#xA;And there are all kinds of faith in the same chapter: faith on God's very existence, his goodness, his joy, his love, his righteousness, his faithfulness, his vision, and his power.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It may look fuzzy, but it's really about having a personal relationship with God. If you have a healthy relationship with Father or Mother, how you are going to express your thankfulness to them? How about when you feel sorry? How about to your Husband or Wife? With God, you are having a relationship with the original one. God is our original as he created man in his image.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I recently became a father by myself and I thank God for the blessing. Amen." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4392" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="947" RevisionGUID="b896e146-d392-4451-986b-4f9768134f2c" CreationDate="2015-06-20T08:40:02.420" UserId="151" Text="Why are sacrifices made? In the myth of Iphigenia's sacrifice it was supposed to be in order that Artemis was appeased and winds would be a good tail wind for the fleet that was gathered for the Troy war. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So one reason for sacrifice is to appease the elements personified into gods  by giving up something as precious as a live much valued human.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Iphigenia was replaced by a deer in  a less blood thirsty version. An animal bleeds , and thus it can be a stand in for a human body. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other reasons for offering sacrifices were in order that the fields would prosper, generally for prosperity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Produce is inanimate and does not bleed. So in the Cain and Abel narrative considered as a myth the produce is a poor substitute  for a human, it is not alive. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It probably reflects the values the cultures  set  in order , for  whoever felt the need to sacrifice , *not my life* but, &quot;another human stand in&quot;  (slaves and captured enemies) , &quot;an animal&quot;, &quot;produce&quot; in diminishing importance. A sociological and psychological issue. Always in my opinion." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4393" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="948" RevisionGUID="b8c2ef49-05e0-4b8a-8df3-bad42915ed2a" CreationDate="2015-06-20T10:01:07.600" UserId="57" Text="In the Wikipedia [Wild Hunt article][1], an Indian related myth is mentioned: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; M.M. Banks cautioned against viewing the Wild Hunt as a peculiarly European phenomenon, identifying a similar tale of cavalry being heard on the wind that was located in the early twentieth-century in the Ghats, India.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The cited source is [Banks, M.M. (1944). &quot;The Wild Hunt?&quot;. Folklore (London: The Folklore Society)][2], which I don't have access to.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there an Indian Wild Hunt myth?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Hunt#Related_myths&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/1257629?&amp;seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4394" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="948" RevisionGUID="b8c2ef49-05e0-4b8a-8df3-bad42915ed2a" CreationDate="2015-06-20T10:01:07.600" UserId="57" Text="Is there an Indian Wild Hunt myth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4395" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="948" RevisionGUID="b8c2ef49-05e0-4b8a-8df3-bad42915ed2a" CreationDate="2015-06-20T10:01:07.600" UserId="57" Text="|myth-identification|india|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4397" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="949" RevisionGUID="a35dc3c6-9cc9-4828-aad7-58c1551144ca" CreationDate="2015-06-20T18:06:44.670" UserId="398" Text="The example seems to be a particularly bad counterexample. I reproduced the relevant part of the article you cited:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;On 29th January (1818), another body of the Peshawa's cavalry was caught in a defile of the Ghats . . . between the hammer and the anvil of an infantry detachment and a cavalry force, and slain or scattered. . . . Fort after fort tumbled into British hands while the Peshwa raced and doubled with a celerity and hopeless misery that impressed themselves on the communal mind so that to this day the villagers remember that spectacle . . . and the scamper of the horses' feet is heard on the wind.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; Ed. Thompson, The Making of the Indian Princes (1943), p. 250.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It does not claim what Wikipedia implies, that the cavalry on the wind is an ancient myth that survived in popular folktales until recorded in the twentieth century. Rather, it seems that this is a very recent historical event that is remembered and connected with natural phenomena. How long will a local tale survive to become myth remains (from what I can tell) to be seen." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4400" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="948" RevisionGUID="3b213e14-029f-4f7a-8d19-847a8dd02095" CreationDate="2015-06-21T06:47:26.897" UserId="57" Comment="added 174 characters in body" Text="In the Wikipedia [Wild Hunt article][1], an Indian related myth is mentioned&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; M.M. Banks cautioned against viewing the Wild Hunt as a peculiarly European phenomenon, identifying a similar tale of cavalry being heard on the wind that was located in the early twentieth-century in the Ghats, India.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The cited source is [Banks, M.M. (1944). &quot;The Wild Hunt?&quot;. Folklore (London: The Folklore Society)][2], which I don't have access to.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there an Indian Wild Hunt myth?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; The article has since been updated, and [the &quot;Related Myths&quot; section was removed](https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wild_Hunt&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=667863529).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Hunt&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/1257629?&amp;seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4401" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="948" RevisionGUID="23963c2f-bab3-4c6b-83fa-a997f4f033bd" CreationDate="2015-06-21T07:03:22.680" UserId="57" Comment="edited body" Text="In the Wikipedia [Wild Hunt article][1], an Indian related myth is mentioned&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; M.M. Banks cautioned against viewing the Wild Hunt as a peculiarly European phenomenon, identifying a similar tale of cavalry being heard on the wind that was located in the early twentieth-century in the Ghats, India.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The cited source is [Banks, M.M. (1944). &quot;The Wild Hunt?&quot;. Folklore (London: The Folklore Society)][2], which I don't have access to.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there an Indian Wild Hunt myth?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; The article has since [been updated](https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wild_Hunt&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=667863529), and the &quot;Related Myths&quot; section was removed.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Hunt&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/1257629?&amp;seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4403" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="950" RevisionGUID="f7258300-41e1-4b7e-ab22-443212396f4d" CreationDate="2015-06-21T13:42:17.170" UserId="201" Text="I saw a &quot;story from Greek mythology&quot; referenced in my morning paper, and I'd never heard it before.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;A woman came to the River Styx and asked to be taken across into that dark land. [The ferryman] Charon reminded her that the dead were offered the option of drinking from the River Lethe, whose waters removed all memory of previous existence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;She wanted to know, “Will I forget how I have suffered?” Charon replied, “Yes, but you will forget how you have rejoiced.” Then she asked, “Will I forget my failures?” Patiently, Charon responded, “Yes, and your victories as well.” Finally, she wanted to know, “Will I forget how I have been hated?” “Yes,” said Charon, “but also you will forget how you have been loved.” After a few moments of reflection, the woman decided to leave the waters of Lethe untasted.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This story is entirely new to me, and the only references I can find are other people saying &quot;There's this Greek myth...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is this in fact an actual myth? What's the origin, or at least what's the oldest version recorded?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4404" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="950" RevisionGUID="f7258300-41e1-4b7e-ab22-443212396f4d" CreationDate="2015-06-21T13:42:17.170" UserId="201" Text="Looking for source: Woman refuses to drink from the River Lethe" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4405" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="950" RevisionGUID="f7258300-41e1-4b7e-ab22-443212396f4d" CreationDate="2015-06-21T13:42:17.170" UserId="201" Text="|greek|underworld|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4406" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="937" RevisionGUID="7bbad4e7-fa71-485f-9b4e-fa05614ad9e5" CreationDate="2015-06-21T14:54:55.500" UserId="57" Comment="added 9 characters in body" Text="In chapter 29 of the Gylfaginning, Snorri Sturluson calls Vidar &quot;the silent asa&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Vidar is the name of the silent asa. He has a very thick shoe, and he is the strongest next after Thor. From him the gods have much help in all hard tasks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Gylfaginning (The Fooling Of Gylfe), Prose Edda by Snorri Sturluson](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning), Wikisource&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The one source I checked claims we don't know why that is: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Elsewhere, Vidar is called the “silent god,” although no explanation for this epithet is given.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Vidar, Norse Mythology for Smart People](http://norse-mythology.org/vidar/)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is that true? And if so, do we at least have any plausible theories for Vidar's silence?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4407" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="945" RevisionGUID="eab5bd52-e093-4003-b4c0-febe56dcdd32" CreationDate="2015-06-21T14:58:53.680" UserId="57" Comment="added 17 characters in body" Text="In chapter 36 of the [Gylfaginning](http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning ), it is said that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The sixth is Freyja, who is ranked with Frigg. She is wedded to the man whose name is Oder; their daughter's name is Hnos, and she is so fair that all things fair and precious are called, from her name, Hnos. Oder went far away. Freyja weeps for him, but her tears are red gold. Freyja has many names, and the reason therefor is that she changed her name among the various nations to which she came in search of Oder.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are a few other mentions of Oder (commonly called Óðr) in Norse mythology, but I can't seem to find an explanation for this journeys.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why does Óðr travel?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: There are theories that Óðr represents Odin, who travels frequently - which would solve the problem - but I am interested in any information that does *not* rely on those theories." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4408" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="951" RevisionGUID="911aaaa2-f321-4757-acea-9650838ca102" CreationDate="2015-06-21T15:00:18.963" UserId="57" Text="In chapter 2 of the Gylfaginning, Gylfe is lead to Odin (in the form of [High, Just-as-High, and Third][1]) by a nameless sword juggler: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the door of the hall Gylfe saw a man who played with swords so dexterously that seven were in the air at one time. That man asked him what his name was. Gylfe answered that his name was Ganglere; that he had come a long way, and that he sought lodgings for the night. He also asked who owned the burg. The other answered that it belonged to their king: I will go with you to see him and then you may ask him for his name yourself. Then the man turned and led the way into the hall. Ganglere followed, and suddenly the doors closed behind him. There he saw many rooms and a large number of people, of whom some were playing, others were drinking, and some were fighting with weapons. He looked around him, and much of what he saw seemed to him incredible. Then quoth he:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gates all,  &#xD;&#xA;Before in you go,  &#xD;&#xA;You must examine well;  &#xD;&#xA;For you cannot know  &#xD;&#xA;Where enemies sit  &#xD;&#xA;In the house before you.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He saw three high-seats, one above the other, and in each sat a man. He asked what the names of these chiefs were. He, who had conducted him in, answered that the one who sat in the lowest high-seat was king, and hight Har; the other next above him, Jafnhar; but the one who sat on the highest throne, Thride. Har asked the comer what more his errand was, and added that food and drink was there at his service, as for all in Har's hall. Ganglere answered that he first would like to ask whether there was any wise man. Answered Har: You will not come out from here hale unless you are wiser.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Gylfaginning (The Fooling Of Gylfe), Prose Edda by Snorri Sturluson](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning), Wikisource&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who is the sword juggler? Is he another god, or perhaps yet another form of Odin? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High,_Just-as-High,_and_Third" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4409" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="951" RevisionGUID="911aaaa2-f321-4757-acea-9650838ca102" CreationDate="2015-06-21T15:00:18.963" UserId="57" Text="Who is the sword juggler in the Gylfaginning?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4410" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="951" RevisionGUID="911aaaa2-f321-4757-acea-9650838ca102" CreationDate="2015-06-21T15:00:18.963" UserId="57" Text="|norse|gylfaginning|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4411" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="952" RevisionGUID="6df063f6-ec85-4787-9d75-627d7609d901" CreationDate="2015-06-21T19:24:10.397" UserId="151" Text="The only relevant thing I found on the web with the exact description is [here][1] . &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;READY: We all have to cross the River Styx&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;I wish I could take credit for this topic, but the truth is my friend Rev. Thomas Butts wrote something like this for his weekly column in the Monroeville paper several years ago. He kindly gave me permission to paraphrase some of his thoughts. I also found a similar treatment in a 1992 Easter sermon by Dr. James Baird for First Presbyterian Church of Jackson, Miss. The theme for both pieces is that river we are all going to cross someday from this life into the next.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Goes on with the conversation as you quote it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems to me it is a modern narrative created by a pastor in the US as a paradigm of religious significance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mobile3308.rssing.com/browser.php?indx=8094601&amp;item=4342" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4412" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="929" RevisionGUID="2b20f364-b56e-4a49-a814-f5ca4ee623ef" CreationDate="2015-06-21T19:39:01.243" UserId="57" Comment="added 13 characters in body" Text="Ero Sɘnnin's [answer][1] in [How was it decided which warriors would go to Fólkvangr and which to Valhalla?][2] seems to suggest that Odin gets to choose who enters Valhalla: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Valhalla is presided over by Odin, and to gain entrance to it, one must be chosen by him and his valkyries, the “choosers of the fallen.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The only difference that is pointed out, is in the way that the dead are chosen to stay. Odin chooses for Valhalla, while Freya chooses for Folkvang.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This seems to be supported by Ero's (secondary) source: [Death and the Afterlife, Norse Mythology for Smart People][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the Gylfaginning seems to be painting a slightly different picture (chapter 24): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Folkvang it is called,  &#xD;&#xA;And there rules Freyja.  &#xD;&#xA;For the seats in the hall  &#xD;&#xA;Half of the slain  &#xD;&#xA;She chooses each day;  &#xD;&#xA;The other half is Odin's.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Gylfaginning (The Fooling Of Gylfe), Prose Edda by Snorri Sturluson][4], Wikisource&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The way I read the above quote, Freyja is the one who chooses, and Odin and Valhalla receive the &quot;half of the slain&quot; that's left. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does Odin actually have a say? Or is Valhalla essentially the hall of Freyja's rejects?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/269/57&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/10/57&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://norse-mythology.org/concepts/death-and-the-afterlife/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4413" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="953" RevisionGUID="10974c60-a96e-4b5c-9375-2e84eaa7ba00" CreationDate="2015-06-21T20:18:20.193" UserId="57" Text="In contrast to the stanza in Gylfaginning's chapter 24, in the Hákonarmál Odin sends his valkyries to announce to king [Haakon the Good](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haakon_the_Good) that he has been granted a seat in the hall of the slain:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They spoke over his grave, as heathen people are used to do, and wished him in Valhal. Eyvind Skaldaspiller composed a poem on the death of King Hakon, and on how well he was received in Valhal. The poem is called &quot;Hakonarmal&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;In Odin's hall an empty place  &#xD;&#xA;Stands for a king of Yngve's race;  &#xD;&#xA;'Go, my valkyries,' Odin said,  &#xD;&#xA;'Go forth, my angels of the dead,  &#xD;&#xA;Gondul and Skogul, to the plain  &#xD;&#xA;Drenched with the battle's bloody rain,  &#xD;&#xA;And to the dying Hakon tell,  &#xD;&#xA;Here in Valhal shall he dwell.'  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hakon the Good's Saga, Heimskringla](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Heimskringla), Wikisource.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus Odin appears to be in full control of who enters Valhalla. However, even if that's not the case and Freyja does get first pick &quot;of the slain&quot;, it doesn't really matter. All of the fallen, including those who end up in Folkvang, are chosen by Odin, as Odin - through his valkyries - chooses who lives and who dies:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 37\. There are still others who are to serve in Valhal, bear the drink around, wait upon the table and pass the ale-horns. Thus they are named in Grimner's Lay:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hrist and Mist  &#xD;&#xA;I want my horn to bring to me;  &#xD;&#xA;Skeggold and Skogul,  &#xD;&#xA;Hild and Thrud,  &#xD;&#xA;Hlok and Herfjoter,  &#xD;&#xA;Gol and Geirahod,  &#xD;&#xA;Randgrid and Radgrid,  &#xD;&#xA;And Óðinssen;  &#xD;&#xA;These bear ale to the einherjes.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These are called valkyries. Odin sends them to all battles, where they choose those who are to be slain, and rule over the victory. Gud and Rosta, and the youngest norn, Skuld, always ride to sway the battle and choose the slain. Jord, the mother of Thor, and Rind, Vale's mother, are numbered among the goddesses.&#xD;&#xA;valky&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Gylfaginning (The Fooling Of Gylfe), Prose Edda by Snorri Sturluson](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning), Wikisource&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4414" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="954" RevisionGUID="8c7b3c71-e908-4e5a-b773-b9a3b4a867c4" CreationDate="2015-06-21T20:56:25.653" UserId="57" Text="The Gylfaginning was our first ever [Myth of the Month][1]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://meta.mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/263/myth-of-the-month-1-gylfaginning" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4415" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="955" RevisionGUID="76e0785b-f1c1-469a-bb84-e1ae375e7709" CreationDate="2015-06-21T20:56:25.653" UserId="57" Text="Questions about the Gylfaginning, the first book of the Prose Edda." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4416" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="956" RevisionGUID="82499a82-fb5f-4679-affb-8893c534af29" CreationDate="2015-06-21T22:12:29.370" UserId="292" Text="Also - in the [Volsung Saga][1] Odin demotes Brynhild because she disobeys his orders that a certain king should win in battle, and kills him instead. (He condemns her to marry a mortal.) If he can pick who wins, he can also choose the losers.  &#xD;&#xA;Of course, there may have been different traditions about Odin and Freyja, just like the followers of Amun and those of Ptah (Egypt) both believed their god made the world.  &#xD;&#xA;I've also seen it suggested that since Freyja is the valkyrie-goddess, she gets first choice of the slain, once they're slain, which would reconcile the two traditions nicely. I'm not sure where I saw this, but it's an extrapolation, rather than something in the sources. That would suggest that Odin decides who dies, but Freyja gets to choose which slain are hers.  &#xD;&#xA;[Britt-Mari Naastrom][2] suggests that there may have been two different traditions of [warrior initiation][3], with different destinations for each one.  &#xD;&#xA;I think the idea that Odin decides who dies, and then Freyja gets first pick of the actual dead, makes sense.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lsunga_saga&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freyja&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://books.google.ca/books?id=TU_H79-CtucC&amp;pg=PA57&amp;hl=en#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4417" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="956" RevisionGUID="303538d4-a788-4adb-a983-fd763395e17d" CreationDate="2015-06-21T23:25:09.110" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="Stack Exchange doesn't like it when the paragraphs are formatted any other way" Text="Also - in the [Volsung Saga][1] Odin demotes Brynhild because she disobeys his orders that a certain king should win in battle, and kills him instead. (He condemns her to marry a mortal.) If he can pick who wins, he can also choose the losers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of course, there may have been different traditions about Odin and Freyja, just like the followers of Amun and those of Ptah (Egypt) both believed their god made the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've also seen it suggested that since Freyja is the valkyrie-goddess, she gets first choice of the slain, once they're slain, which would reconcile the two traditions nicely. I'm not sure where I saw this, but it's an extrapolation, rather than something in the sources. That would suggest that Odin decides who dies, but Freyja gets to choose which slain are hers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Britt-Mari Naastrom][2] suggests that there may have been two different traditions of [warrior initiation][3], with different destinations for each one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think the idea that Odin decides who dies, and then Freyja gets first pick of the actual dead, makes sense.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lsunga_saga&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freyja&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://books.google.ca/books?id=TU_H79-CtucC&amp;pg=PA57&amp;hl=en#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4418" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="950" RevisionGUID="bc34f99d-2175-45fb-8cfc-905cd7d162e3" CreationDate="2015-06-21T23:50:59.750" UserId="183" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|myth-identification|underworld|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4419" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="957" RevisionGUID="b82ca9e9-5357-4c0c-9655-35625bd16e6e" CreationDate="2015-06-22T00:16:14.297" UserId="57" Text="In the Gylfaginning, king Gylfe travels to Asgard disguised as an old man. When asked, he introduces himself with a fake name (Ganglere). The Aesir are on to him from the start, however they don't seem to care; Gylfe gets answers to his questions, and there's no punishment for his deceit. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is Gylfe trying to deceit the Aesir in the first place? Is there a reason it would be easier for him to reach Asgard as an old man, rather than as king? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4420" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="957" RevisionGUID="b82ca9e9-5357-4c0c-9655-35625bd16e6e" CreationDate="2015-06-22T00:16:14.297" UserId="57" Text="Why is Gylfe trying to deceit his way into Asgard?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4421" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="957" RevisionGUID="b82ca9e9-5357-4c0c-9655-35625bd16e6e" CreationDate="2015-06-22T00:16:14.297" UserId="57" Text="|norse|gylfaginning|interpretation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4422" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="287" RevisionGUID="bc219c25-bb7d-4460-82bf-a0ae3629d70f" CreationDate="2015-06-22T07:36:12.790" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|indigenous-australian|dreamtime|wondjina|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4423" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="109" RevisionGUID="fdccebad-6239-421f-b65e-aacf793770df" CreationDate="2015-06-22T07:36:54.857" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|creation|indigenous-australian|dreamtime|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4424" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="941" RevisionGUID="863e58f6-0046-4b6c-a45d-e09670e05b03" CreationDate="2015-06-22T07:47:06.747" UserId="57" Comment="added 95 characters in body" Text="Thessalonike was the daughter of Phillip II of Macedon, and a half sister to Alexander III of Macedon. Legend has it that when Alexander died, Thessalonike &quot;became a mermaid passing judgment on mariners&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There exists a popular Greek legend which talks about a mermaid who lived in the Aegean for hundreds of years who was thought to be Thessalonike. The legend states that Alexander, in his quest for the Fountain of Immortality, retrieved with great exertion a flask of immortal water with which he bathed his sister's hair. When Alexander died his grief-stricken sister attempted to end her life by jumping into the sea. Instead of drowning, however, she became a mermaid passing judgment on mariners throughout the centuries and across the seven seas. To the sailors who encountered her she would always pose the same question: &quot;Is Alexander the king alive?&quot; (Greek: Ζει ο βασιλιάς Αλέξανδρος;), to which the correct answer would be &quot;He lives and reigns and conquers the world&quot; (Greek: Ζει και βασιλεύει, και τον κόσμο κυριεύει!). Given this answer she would allow the ship and her crew to sail safely away in calm seas. Any other answer would transform her into the raging Gorgon, bent on sending the ship and every sailor on board to the bottom.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Wikipedia contributors, 'Thessalonike of Macedon', Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia, 16 June 2015, 18:36 UTC, &lt;https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Thessalonike_of_Macedon&amp;oldid=667233592&gt; [accessed 22 June 2015]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Almost every version I've read mentions Alexander's search for the fountain of youth, which points to the legend being part of the  [Alexander romance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_romance). However, I haven't been able to pinpoint a possible source for the legend or even get a vague idea of when it first appeared.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Help?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4425" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="951" RevisionGUID="e5ba144f-a777-48e4-8fe0-54eefa4ac1ec" CreationDate="2015-06-22T07:52:44.313" UserId="57" Comment="added 65 characters in body" Text="In chapter 2 of the Gylfaginning, Gylfe is lead to Odin (in the form of [High, Just-as-High, and Third][1]) by a nameless sword juggler: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the door of the hall Gylfe saw a man who played with swords so dexterously that seven were in the air at one time. That man asked him what his name was. Gylfe answered that his name was Ganglere; that he had come a long way, and that he sought lodgings for the night. He also asked who owned the burg. The other answered that it belonged to their king: I will go with you to see him and then you may ask him for his name yourself. Then the man turned and led the way into the hall. Ganglere followed, and suddenly the doors closed behind him. There he saw many rooms and a large number of people, of whom some were playing, others were drinking, and some were fighting with weapons. He looked around him, and much of what he saw seemed to him incredible. Then quoth he:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gates all,  &#xD;&#xA;Before in you go,  &#xD;&#xA;You must examine well;  &#xD;&#xA;For you cannot know  &#xD;&#xA;Where enemies sit  &#xD;&#xA;In the house before you.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He saw three high-seats, one above the other, and in each sat a man. He asked what the names of these chiefs were. He, who had conducted him in, answered that the one who sat in the lowest high-seat was king, and hight Har; the other next above him, Jafnhar; but the one who sat on the highest throne, Thride. Har asked the comer what more his errand was, and added that food and drink was there at his service, as for all in Har's hall. Ganglere answered that he first would like to ask whether there was any wise man. Answered Har: You will not come out from here hale unless you are wiser.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Wikisource contributors, 'Prose Edda/Gylfaginning', Wikisource , 29 January 2013, 01:25 UTC, &lt;https://en.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning&amp;oldid=4271175&gt; [accessed 22 June 2015]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who is the sword juggler? Is he another god, or perhaps yet another form of Odin? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High,_Just-as-High,_and_Third" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4426" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="929" RevisionGUID="63a3b658-5105-4735-8582-52701a429ec8" CreationDate="2015-06-22T08:02:42.627" UserId="57" Comment="added 118 characters in body" Text="Ero Sɘnnin's [answer][1] in [How was it decided which warriors would go to Fólkvangr and which to Valhalla?][2] seems to suggest that Odin gets to choose who enters Valhalla: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Valhalla is presided over by Odin, and to gain entrance to it, one must be chosen by him and his valkyries, the “choosers of the fallen.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The only difference that is pointed out, is in the way that the dead are chosen to stay. Odin chooses for Valhalla, while Freya chooses for Folkvang.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This seems to be supported by Ero's (secondary) source: [Death and the Afterlife, Norse Mythology for Smart People][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the Gylfaginning seems to be painting a slightly different picture (chapter 24): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Folkvang it is called,  &#xD;&#xA;And there rules Freyja.  &#xD;&#xA;For the seats in the hall  &#xD;&#xA;Half of the slain  &#xD;&#xA;She chooses each day;  &#xD;&#xA;The other half is Odin's.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Wikisource contributors, 'Prose Edda/Gylfaginning', Wikisource , 29 January 2013, 01:25 UTC, &lt;https://en.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning&amp;oldid=4271175&gt; [accessed 22 June 2015]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The way I read the above quote, Freyja is the one who chooses, and Odin and Valhalla receive the &quot;half of the slain&quot; that's left. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does Odin actually have a say? Or is Valhalla essentially the hall of Freyja's rejects?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/269/57&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/10/57&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://norse-mythology.org/concepts/death-and-the-afterlife/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4427" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="953" RevisionGUID="d05eff5a-43a8-4548-b558-a3e3c40728eb" CreationDate="2015-06-22T08:03:37.977" UserId="57" Comment="added 190 characters in body" Text="In contrast to the stanza in Gylfaginning's chapter 24, in the Hákonarmál Odin sends his valkyries to announce to king [Haakon the Good](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haakon_the_Good) that he has been granted a seat in the hall of the slain:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They spoke over his grave, as heathen people are used to do, and wished him in Valhal. Eyvind Skaldaspiller composed a poem on the death of King Hakon, and on how well he was received in Valhal. The poem is called &quot;Hakonarmal&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;In Odin's hall an empty place  &#xD;&#xA;Stands for a king of Yngve's race;  &#xD;&#xA;'Go, my valkyries,' Odin said,  &#xD;&#xA;'Go forth, my angels of the dead,  &#xD;&#xA;Gondul and Skogul, to the plain  &#xD;&#xA;Drenched with the battle's bloody rain,  &#xD;&#xA;And to the dying Hakon tell,  &#xD;&#xA;Here in Valhal shall he dwell.'  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Wikisource contributors, 'Heimskringla/Hakon the Good's Saga', Wikisource , 13 April 2012, 18:55 UTC, &lt;https://en.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=Heimskringla/Hakon_the_Good%27s_Saga&amp;oldid=3740623&gt; [accessed 22 June 2015]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus Odin appears to be in full control of who enters Valhalla. However, even if that's not the case and Freyja does get first pick &quot;of the slain&quot;, it doesn't really matter. All of the fallen, including those who end up in Folkvang, are chosen by Odin, as Odin - through his valkyries - chooses who lives and who dies:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 37\. There are still others who are to serve in Valhal, bear the drink around, wait upon the table and pass the ale-horns. Thus they are named in Grimner's Lay:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hrist and Mist  &#xD;&#xA;I want my horn to bring to me;  &#xD;&#xA;Skeggold and Skogul,  &#xD;&#xA;Hild and Thrud,  &#xD;&#xA;Hlok and Herfjoter,  &#xD;&#xA;Gol and Geirahod,  &#xD;&#xA;Randgrid and Radgrid,  &#xD;&#xA;And Óðinssen;  &#xD;&#xA;These bear ale to the einherjes.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These are called valkyries. Odin sends them to all battles, where they choose those who are to be slain, and rule over the victory. Gud and Rosta, and the youngest norn, Skuld, always ride to sway the battle and choose the slain. Jord, the mother of Thor, and Rind, Vale's mother, are numbered among the goddesses.&#xD;&#xA;valky&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Wikisource contributors, 'Prose Edda/Gylfaginning', Wikisource , 29 January 2013, 01:25 UTC, &lt;https://en.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning&amp;oldid=4271175&gt; [accessed 22 June 2015]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4428" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="958" RevisionGUID="25e301c9-808e-4f45-9367-ef7174eb63d4" CreationDate="2015-06-23T00:44:46.297" UserId="57" Text="Wikipedia proposes two theories for why the Wondjina are typically depicted without mouths: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Common composition is with large upper bodies and heads that show eyes and nose, but typically no mouth. Two explanations have been given for this: they are so powerful they do not require speech and if they had mouths, the rain would never cease. &#xA;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Wikipedia contributors, 'Wondjina', Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia, 15 April 2015, 22:34 UTC, &lt;https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wondjina&amp;oldid=656672374&gt; [accessed 22 June 2015]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;However the article provides no source for either theory. Is there a story that explains why the Wondjina are mouthless?&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4429" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="958" RevisionGUID="25e301c9-808e-4f45-9367-ef7174eb63d4" CreationDate="2015-06-23T00:44:46.297" UserId="57" Text="Why are the Wondjina mouthless?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4430" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="958" RevisionGUID="25e301c9-808e-4f45-9367-ef7174eb63d4" CreationDate="2015-06-23T00:44:46.297" UserId="57" Text="|indigenous-australian|wondjina|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4431" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="958" RevisionGUID="238b2037-7e35-4177-9eed-8e16ec7c9e26" CreationDate="2015-06-23T00:55:52.820" UserId="57" Comment="added 18 characters in body" Text="Wikipedia proposes two explanations for why the Wondjina are typically depicted without mouths: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Common composition is with large upper bodies and heads that show eyes and nose, but typically no mouth. Two explanations have been given for this: they are so powerful they do not require speech and if they had mouths, the rain would never cease. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: Wikipedia contributors, 'Wondjina', Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia, 23 June 2015, 00:55 UTC, &lt;https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wondjina&amp;oldid=668217877&gt; [accessed 23 June 2015]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However the article provides no source for either theory. Is there a story that explains why the Wondjina are mouthless?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4432" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="959" RevisionGUID="dbf0f941-a0f9-46c3-8f35-c55f59f72bf0" CreationDate="2015-06-23T02:31:24.097" UserId="42" Text="I've been playing [&quot;The Talos Principle&quot;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Talos_Principle).  In it, Talos is presented as a symbolic representation of an intelligent artificial being (a robot, if you're feeling less pretentious).  The bronze giant from the Argonautica is certainly a reasonable symbol to choose for the themes of the game.  However, is this representation, of an construct with human-like intelligence, accurate, with regards to the mythology?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I suppose I'm asking two questions in a sense:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Is he artificial? (that is, not a member of some ancient natural race of metal giants, for instance)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Is he intelligent?  He is presented as having wishes and desires of his own, and at one point this very quality is said to have been the cause of his downfall.  What does that refer to?  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4433" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="959" RevisionGUID="dbf0f941-a0f9-46c3-8f35-c55f59f72bf0" CreationDate="2015-06-23T02:31:24.097" UserId="42" Text="Was Talos an intelligent machine?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4434" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="959" RevisionGUID="dbf0f941-a0f9-46c3-8f35-c55f59f72bf0" CreationDate="2015-06-23T02:31:24.097" UserId="42" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4435" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="960" RevisionGUID="22f39fcb-ea43-48b5-af3d-3c24523db67a" CreationDate="2015-06-23T02:54:31.457" UserId="57" Text="The more popular version of the Talos story can be found in the Argonautica. In it, Talos was an automaton, a self operating machine. He was forged by Hephaistos and was tasked by Zeus to guard Europa's hideout in mount Dikti (in Crete): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Talos, the man of bronze, as he broke off rocks from the hard cliff, stayed them from fastening hawsers to the shore, when they came to the roadstead of Dicte's haven. He was of the stock of bronze, of the men sprung from ash-trees, the last left among the sons of the gods; and the son of Cronos gave him to Europa to be the warder of Crete and to stride round the island thrice a day with his feet of bronze. Now in all the rest of his body and limbs was he fashioned of bronze and invulnerable; but beneath the sinew by his ankle was a blood-red vein; and this, with its issues of life and death, was covered by a thin skin. So the heroes, though outworn with toil, quickly backed their ship from the land in sore dismay. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Project Gutenberg EBook of The Argonautica, by Apollonius Rhodius](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/830/830-h/830-h.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pseudo-Apollodorus' version differs a bit; Talos is tasked by king Minos to patrol Crete, and he might shaped like a bull: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Putting to sea from there, they were hindered from touching at Crete by Talos. Some say that he was a man of the Brazen Race, others that he was given to Minos by Hephaestus; he was a brazen man, but some say that he was a bull. He had a single vein extending from his neck to his ankles, and a bronze nail was rammed home at the end of the vein. This Talos kept guard, running round the island thrice every day; wherefore, when he saw the Argo standing inshore, he pelted it as usual with stones. His death was brought about by the wiles of Medea, whether, as some say, she drove him mad by drugs, or, as others say, she promised to make him immortal and then drew out the nail, so that all the ichor gushed out and he died. But some say that Poeas shot him dead in the ankle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Book 1, Apollodorus, Library, Sir James George Frazer, Ed.](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0548.tlg001.perseus-eng1:1.9)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Regardless of these differences, Talos doesn't appear to be capable of anything other than following instructions.  &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4436" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="960" RevisionGUID="c32f8b6c-5da0-4399-94ba-466c6c0b92fe" CreationDate="2015-06-23T03:01:09.453" UserId="57" Comment="added 90 characters in body" Text="The more popular version of the Talos story can be found in the Argonautica. In it, Talos was an automaton, a self operating machine. He was forged by Hephaistos and was tasked by Zeus to guard Europa's hideout in mount Dikti (in Crete): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Talos, the man of bronze, as he broke off rocks from the hard cliff, stayed them from fastening hawsers to the shore, when they came to the roadstead of Dicte's haven. He was of the stock of bronze, of the men sprung from ash-trees, the last left among the sons of the gods; and the son of Cronos gave him to Europa to be the warder of Crete and to stride round the island thrice a day with his feet of bronze. Now in all the rest of his body and limbs was he fashioned of bronze and invulnerable; but beneath the sinew by his ankle was a blood-red vein; and this, with its issues of life and death, was covered by a thin skin. So the heroes, though outworn with toil, quickly backed their ship from the land in sore dismay. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Project Gutenberg EBook of The Argonautica, by Apollonius Rhodius](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/830/830-h/830-h.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pseudo-Apollodorus' version differs a bit; Talos is tasked by king Minos to patrol Crete, and he might shaped like a bull: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Putting to sea from there, they were hindered from touching at Crete by Talos. Some say that he was a man of the Brazen Race, others that he was given to Minos by Hephaestus; he was a brazen man, but some say that he was a bull. He had a single vein extending from his neck to his ankles, and a bronze nail was rammed home at the end of the vein. This Talos kept guard, running round the island thrice every day; wherefore, when he saw the Argo standing inshore, he pelted it as usual with stones. His death was brought about by the wiles of Medea, whether, as some say, she drove him mad by drugs, or, as others say, she promised to make him immortal and then drew out the nail, so that all the ichor gushed out and he died. But some say that Poeas shot him dead in the ankle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Book 1, Apollodorus, Library, Sir James George Frazer, Ed.](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0548.tlg001.perseus-eng1:1.9)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Regardless of these differences Talos doesn't appear to be intelligent in either version. He is following instructions mechanically, similarly to Hephaistos' other automatons (e.g. the Khalkotauroi or the Cabeirian Horses). &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4437" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="959" RevisionGUID="d3fba01c-4f5c-4803-84c5-a9a29c05c7e4" CreationDate="2015-06-23T03:03:57.740" UserId="42" Comment="added 293 characters in body" Text="I've been playing [&quot;The Talos Principle&quot;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Talos_Principle).  In it, Talos is presented as a symbolic representation of an intelligent artificial being (a robot, if you're feeling less pretentious).  The bronze giant from the Argonautica is certainly a reasonable symbol to choose for the themes of the game.  However, is this representation, of an construct with human-like intelligence, accurate, with regards to the mythology?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I suppose I'm asking two questions in a sense:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Is he artificial? (that is, not a member of some ancient natural race of metal giants, for instance)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Is he intelligent?  He is presented as having wishes and desires of his own, and at one point this very quality is said to have been the cause of his downfall. &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;    &gt; May we not then say that Talos, though created as a machine or a toy, had all the essential properties of a man?  He moved of his own volition.  He spoke and could be spoken to, had wishes and desires.  Indeed in the tale of the Argonauts, that was the cause of his downfall.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    What does that refer to?  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4438" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="960" RevisionGUID="3001c0b6-d495-4848-8025-f53e4b365a21" CreationDate="2015-06-23T03:52:07.277" UserId="57" Comment="added 3 characters in body" Text="The more popular version of the Talos story can be found in the Argonautica. In it, Talos was an automaton, a self operating machine. He was forged by Hephaistos and was tasked by Zeus to guard Europa's hideout in mount Dikti (in Crete): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Talos, the man of bronze, as he broke off rocks from the hard cliff, stayed them from fastening hawsers to the shore, when they came to the roadstead of Dicte's haven. He was of the stock of bronze, of the men sprung from ash-trees, the last left among the sons of the gods; and the son of Cronos gave him to Europa to be the warder of Crete and to stride round the island thrice a day with his feet of bronze. Now in all the rest of his body and limbs was he fashioned of bronze and invulnerable; but beneath the sinew by his ankle was a blood-red vein; and this, with its issues of life and death, was covered by a thin skin. So the heroes, though outworn with toil, quickly backed their ship from the land in sore dismay. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Project Gutenberg EBook of The Argonautica, by Apollonius Rhodius](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/830/830-h/830-h.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pseudo-Apollodorus' version differs a bit; Talos is tasked by king Minos to patrol Crete, and he might be shaped like a bull: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Putting to sea from there, they were hindered from touching at Crete by Talos. Some say that he was a man of the Brazen Race, others that he was given to Minos by Hephaestus; he was a brazen man, but some say that he was a bull. He had a single vein extending from his neck to his ankles, and a bronze nail was rammed home at the end of the vein. This Talos kept guard, running round the island thrice every day; wherefore, when he saw the Argo standing inshore, he pelted it as usual with stones. His death was brought about by the wiles of Medea, whether, as some say, she drove him mad by drugs, or, as others say, she promised to make him immortal and then drew out the nail, so that all the ichor gushed out and he died. But some say that Poeas shot him dead in the ankle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Book 1, Apollodorus, Library, Sir James George Frazer, Ed.](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0548.tlg001.perseus-eng1:1.9)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Regardless of these differences Talos doesn't appear to be intelligent in either version. He is following instructions mechanically, similarly to Hephaistos' other automatons (e.g. the Khalkotauroi or the Cabeirian Horses). &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4439" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="959" RevisionGUID="f7f7025b-4aa7-47d5-b1fc-5452610ab1b5" CreationDate="2015-06-23T04:38:43.877" UserId="42" Comment="added 84 characters in body" Text="I've been playing [&quot;The Talos Principle&quot;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Talos_Principle).  In it, Talos is presented as a symbolic representation of an intelligent artificial being (a robot, if you're feeling less pretentious).  The bronze giant from the Argonautica is certainly a reasonable symbol to choose for the themes of the game.  However, is this representation, of an construct with human-like intelligence, accurate, with regards to the mythology?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I suppose I'm asking two questions in a sense:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Is he artificial? (that is, not a member of some ancient natural race of metal giants, for instance)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Is he intelligent?  He is presented as having wishes and desires of his own, and at one point this very quality is said to have been the cause of his downfall. &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;    &gt; May we not then say that Talos, though created as a machine or a toy, had all the essential properties of a man?  He moved of his own volition.  He spoke and could be spoken to, had wishes and desires.  Indeed in the tale of the Argonauts, that was the cause of his downfall.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    &gt; &lt;sub&gt; Attributed in game to &quot;Straton of Stageira&quot;, who is fictional.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    What does that refer to?  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4440" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="959" RevisionGUID="acd11087-0b7a-4c05-80ff-9a7ec12035ad" CreationDate="2015-06-23T04:47:15.010" UserId="42" Comment="added 44 characters in body" Text="I've been playing [&quot;The Talos Principle&quot;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Talos_Principle).  In it, Talos is presented as a symbolic representation of an intelligent artificial being (a robot, if you're feeling less pretentious).  The bronze giant from the Argonautica is certainly a reasonable symbol to choose for the themes of the game.  However, is this representation, of an construct with human-like intelligence, accurate, with regards to the mythology?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I suppose I'm asking two questions in a sense:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Is he artificial? (that is, not a member of some ancient natural race of metal giants, for instance)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Is he intelligent?  He is presented as having wishes and desires of his own, and at one point this very quality is said to have been the cause of his downfall. &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;    &gt; May we not then say that Talos, though created as a machine or a toy, had all the essential properties of a man?  He moved of his own volition.  He spoke and could be spoken to, had wishes and desires.  Indeed in the tale of the Argonauts, that was the cause of his downfall.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    &gt; &lt;sub&gt; Attributed in game to [&quot;Straton of Stageira&quot;](https://stratonofstageira.wordpress.com/), who is fictional.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    What does that refer to?  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4443" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="961" RevisionGUID="3372c720-0226-42c7-9b40-c1709d3f5070" CreationDate="2015-06-23T21:02:27.040" UserId="466" Text="Are there stories explaining the Northern or Southern Lights; and if so, are they similar across different nations?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4444" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="961" RevisionGUID="3372c720-0226-42c7-9b40-c1709d3f5070" CreationDate="2015-06-23T21:02:27.040" UserId="466" Text="What cultures have myths related to the origin of aurora phenomena?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4445" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="961" RevisionGUID="3372c720-0226-42c7-9b40-c1709d3f5070" CreationDate="2015-06-23T21:02:27.040" UserId="466" Text="|comparative|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4446" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="962" RevisionGUID="d5f0f353-8d44-4de6-ad2a-4002a1f97318" CreationDate="2015-06-24T03:59:21.340" UserId="123" Text="&#xD;&#xA;Is Kali, the dancing goddess, with skull necklaces, and blood licking tongue, unique? Specifically the mix of joyous rapture, death embrace, yet mothering and sexual. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;eros and thanatos, at once a maiden, a mother and a crone&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there other divinities who mix warm embrace with destruction, love with death, sex with protection…?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4447" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="962" RevisionGUID="d5f0f353-8d44-4de6-ad2a-4002a1f97318" CreationDate="2015-06-24T03:59:21.340" UserId="123" Text="Are there Kali-types deities in other pantheons?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4448" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="962" RevisionGUID="d5f0f353-8d44-4de6-ad2a-4002a1f97318" CreationDate="2015-06-24T03:59:21.340" UserId="123" Text="|comparative|hindu|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4449" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="963" RevisionGUID="76a6a4a7-7256-418e-81c3-6900b91ddd65" CreationDate="2015-06-24T05:14:10.333" UserId="467" Text="This idea based on the Sumerian myth known as *Enki and Ninhursag* (see *ANET,* pp. 37-41) keeps popping up, especially in popular literature and on the internet. Kramer, however, did give credence to it, as mentioned by the blogger to whom you linked (see Kramer's *History Begins at Sumer,* pp. 143-44). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To make a long story short, the god Enki out of curiosity eats 8 plants in the paradise of Dilmun (cf. Eve eating the forbidden fruit), which the goddess Ninhursag considers a mortal sin, so she causes 8 body parts (including his rib) of Enki to suffer, and he is on the brink of death. Enlil takes up Enki's cause and persuades Ninhursag to relent, and so various deities then come to heal each of Enki's body parts. The one who heals his rib is the goddess Ninti, whose name means both &quot;lady of the rib,&quot; and &quot;lady who makes live,&quot; which serves as a pun. Thus is established a possible parallel between Ninti and Eve, who was created from Adam's rib (in Hebrew *tesla*) and whose name in Hebrew (*hawwa*) connotes life (thus Eve was called &quot;the mother of all the living&quot; in Genesis 3:20). The pun doesn't work in Hebrew since the words for rib and life differ, but I'm not sure the biblical writer knew about it or, if he did, cared. (Having said that, it looks like the biblical writer made his own pun, because the Hebrew word for rib, *tsela,* can also connote &quot;stumbling,&quot; so although Eve was ostensibly created to be Adam's helper (Gen. 2:18), she proved to be his stumbling block.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are obvious parallels here, which have gotten many people excited, but proving a direct influence has proved elusive, and I know of no biblical scholars (whether faith-based or secular) who maintain that there is any such direct influence, because the usual scholarly criteria for proving intertextual influence are not strongly met here; but this remains a reasonable possibility. More generally, many prevalent ancient Near Eastern mythological motifs do show up in the Hebrew Bible, so it is clear to me that biblical Palestine shared a common cultural (including mythological) context with the broader ancient Near East.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4450" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="960" RevisionGUID="b789f5ad-6db9-4e08-95fd-6099a40bbe41" CreationDate="2015-06-24T07:02:18.803" UserId="57" Comment="added 238 characters in body" Text="The more popular version of the Talos story can be found in the Argonautica. In it, Talos was an automaton, a self operating machine. He was forged by Hephaistos and was tasked by Zeus to guard Europa's hideout in mount Dikti (in Crete): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Talos, the man of bronze, as he broke off rocks from the hard cliff, stayed them from fastening hawsers to the shore, when they came to the roadstead of Dicte's haven. He was of the stock of bronze, of the men sprung from ash-trees, the last left among the sons of the gods; and the son of Cronos gave him to Europa to be the warder of Crete and to stride round the island thrice a day with his feet of bronze. Now in all the rest of his body and limbs was he fashioned of bronze and invulnerable; but beneath the sinew by his ankle was a blood-red vein; and this, with its issues of life and death, was covered by a thin skin. So the heroes, though outworn with toil, quickly backed their ship from the land in sore dismay. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Project Gutenberg EBook of The Argonautica, by Apollonius Rhodius](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/830/830-h/830-h.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pseudo-Apollodorus' version differs a bit; Talos is tasked by king Minos to patrol Crete, and he might be shaped like a bull: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Putting to sea from there, they were hindered from touching at Crete by Talos. Some say that he was a man of the Brazen Race, others that he was given to Minos by Hephaestus; he was a brazen man, but some say that he was a bull. He had a single vein extending from his neck to his ankles, and a bronze nail was rammed home at the end of the vein. This Talos kept guard, running round the island thrice every day; wherefore, when he saw the Argo standing inshore, he pelted it as usual with stones. His death was brought about by the wiles of Medea, whether, as some say, she drove him mad by drugs, or, as others say, she promised to make him immortal and then drew out the nail, so that all the ichor gushed out and he died. But some say that Poeas shot him dead in the ankle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Book 1, Apollodorus, Library, Sir James George Frazer, Ed.](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0548.tlg001.perseus-eng1:1.9)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Regardless of these differences Talos doesn't appear to be intelligent in either version. He is following instructions mechanically, similarly to Hephaistos' other automatons (e.g. the Khalkotauroi or the Cabeirian Horses). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a sidenote, these coins from Phaistos tell us the Cretans thought Talos had wings. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately a tale of a flying Talos didn't survive.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/zEiSf.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4451" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="964" RevisionGUID="6c837dd3-bbbb-4329-8891-a759206e7d8a" CreationDate="2015-06-24T07:22:41.423" UserId="111" Text="In Chukchee mythology, according to [Bogoraz (1907)](http://digitallibrary.amnh.org/dspace/bitstream/2246/5745/5/M11Pt02.pdf), the Aurora Borealis is made of the spirits of the people who died a violent death. Some of them are playing soccer in the sky with a walrus head:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Aurora Borealis is chiefly the place of abode for those who die a sudden or violent death. The whitish spots are the people who died from contagious diseases; the red spots are those stabbed with a knife; the dark spots are those strangled by the &quot;spirits&quot; of nervous diseases; the changeable rays are deceased people running about and playing ball with a walrus-head which is alive. It roars when in motion, after it has been tossed. It wants to strike with its tusks anybody who tries to catch it. Men who have been strangled with a slip-noose at their own request, have honorary places among the spectators; or they themselves may play, but do so in a very awkward manner, because of the rope dangling behind them on the ground." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4452" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="964" RevisionGUID="8be7aa28-9cbb-48a3-a480-d12e401f3ae8" CreationDate="2015-06-24T07:27:53.490" UserId="111" Comment="added 194 characters in body" Text="In Chukchee mythology, according to [Bogoras (1907)](http://digitallibrary.amnh.org/dspace/bitstream/2246/5745/5/M11Pt02.pdf), the Aurora Borealis is made of the spirits of the people who died a violent death. Some of them are playing soccer in the sky with a walrus head:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Aurora Borealis is chiefly the place of abode for those who die a sudden or violent death. The whitish spots are the people who died from contagious diseases; the red spots are those stabbed with a knife; the dark spots are those strangled by the &quot;spirits&quot; of nervous diseases; the changeable rays are deceased people running about and playing ball with a walrus-head which is alive. It roars when in motion, after it has been tossed. It wants to strike with its tusks anybody who tries to catch it. Men who have been strangled with a slip-noose at their own request, have honorary places among the spectators; or they themselves may play, but do so in a very awkward manner, because of the rope dangling behind them on the ground.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt; W. Bogoras, 1907. [The Chukchee – Religion (Part II)](http://digitallibrary.amnh.org/dspace/bitstream/2246/5745/5/M11Pt02.pdf). Memoirs of the American Museum of Natural History.&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4453" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="964" RevisionGUID="2d56c58e-f316-4658-9ed0-2f24ec0355ef" CreationDate="2015-06-24T07:43:14.963" UserId="111" Comment="added 194 characters in body" Text="In Chukchee mythology, according to [Bogoras (1907)](http://digitallibrary.amnh.org/dspace/bitstream/2246/5745/5/M11Pt02.pdf), the Aurora Borealis is made of the spirits of the people who died a violent death. Some of them are playing soccer in the sky with a walrus head:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Aurora Borealis is chiefly the place of abode for those who die a sudden or violent death. The whitish spots are the people who died from contagious diseases; the red spots are those stabbed with a knife; the dark spots are those strangled by the &quot;spirits&quot; of nervous diseases; the changeable rays are deceased people running about and playing ball with a walrus-head which is alive. It roars when in motion, after it has been tossed. It wants to strike with its tusks anybody who tries to catch it. Men who have been strangled with a slip-noose at their own request, have honorary places among the spectators; or they themselves may play, but do so in a very awkward manner, because of the rope dangling behind them on the ground.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt; W. Bogoras, 1907. [The Chukchee – Religion (Part II)](http://digitallibrary.amnh.org/dspace/bitstream/2246/5745/5/M11Pt02.pdf). Memoirs of the American Museum of Natural History.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Inuits from Labrador had similar beliefs:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Only the spirits of those who have died a voluntary or violent death, and the raven, have been over this pathway. The spirits who live there light torches to guide the feet of new arrivals. This is the light of the aurora. They can be seen there feasting and playing football with a walrus skull.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Extract from *Aurora: the northern lights in mythology, history and science.*](https://books.google.de/books?hl=en&amp;lr=&amp;id=Poxcz5AbrpcC&amp;oi=fnd&amp;pg=PA7&amp;dq=aurora+borealis+walrus&amp;ots=g6T54jsM0l&amp;sig=aRI-ornG4GcLU1_8NPhxoahMpwg#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false) &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The 'soccer game with a walrus head'-part of the belief was also rapported by Knud Rasmussen for the Iglulik Eskimos living in Greenland." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4454" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="964" RevisionGUID="6d680222-5116-44f7-99d1-603b75c5f4e0" CreationDate="2015-06-24T07:51:24.543" UserId="111" Comment="added 894 characters in body" Text="In Chukchee mythology, according to [Bogoras (1907)](http://digitallibrary.amnh.org/dspace/bitstream/2246/5745/5/M11Pt02.pdf), the Aurora Borealis is made of the spirits of the people who died a violent death. Some of them are playing soccer in the sky with a walrus head:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Aurora Borealis is chiefly the place of abode for those who die a sudden or violent death. The whitish spots are the people who died from contagious diseases; the red spots are those stabbed with a knife; the dark spots are those strangled by the &quot;spirits&quot; of nervous diseases; the changeable rays are deceased people running about and playing ball with a walrus-head which is alive. It roars when in motion, after it has been tossed. It wants to strike with its tusks anybody who tries to catch it. Men who have been strangled with a slip-noose at their own request, have honorary places among the spectators; or they themselves may play, but do so in a very awkward manner, because of the rope dangling behind them on the ground.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt; W. Bogoras, 1907. [The Chukchee – Religion (Part II)](http://digitallibrary.amnh.org/dspace/bitstream/2246/5745/5/M11Pt02.pdf). Memoirs of the American Museum of Natural History.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This narrative seems to be relatively widespread among Eskimo people since the Inuits from Labrador had similar beliefs:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Only the spirits of those who have died a voluntary or violent death, and the raven, have been over this pathway. The spirits who live there light torches to guide the feet of new arrivals. This is the light of the aurora. They can be seen there feasting and playing football with a walrus skull.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Extract from *Aurora: the northern lights in mythology, history and science.*](https://books.google.de/books?hl=en&amp;lr=&amp;id=Poxcz5AbrpcC&amp;oi=fnd&amp;pg=PA7&amp;dq=aurora+borealis+walrus&amp;ots=g6T54jsM0l&amp;sig=aRI-ornG4GcLU1_8NPhxoahMpwg#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false) &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The soccer game with a walrus head was also rapported by Knud Rasmussen for the Iglulik Eskimos:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Here, they are constantly playing ball, the Eskimos' favourite game, laughing and singing, and the ball&#xD;&#xA;they play with is the skull of a walrus. The object is to kick the skull&#xD;&#xA;in such a manner that is always falls with the tusks downwards, and&#xD;&#xA;thus sticks fast in the ground. It is this ball game of the departed&#xD;&#xA;souls that appears as the aurora borealis, and is heard as a whistling,&#xD;&#xA;rustling, crackling sound. The noise is made by the souls as they&#xD;&#xA;run across the frost-hardened snow of the heavens. If one happens&#xD;&#xA;to be out alone at night when the aurora borealis is visible, and&#xD;&#xA;hears this whistling sound, one has only to whistle in return and&#xD;&#xA;the lights will come nearer, out of curiosity.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Rasmussen, K., 1929. [The Intellectual Culture of the Iglulik Eskimos](https://archive.org/details/intellectualcult00rasm). Report of the 5th Thule Expedition 1921-1924.&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4455" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="964" RevisionGUID="5a41383b-9e09-4cd7-ac4e-06485b866b6c" CreationDate="2015-06-24T08:05:37.947" UserId="111" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="In Chukchee mythology, according to [Bogoras (1907)](http://digitallibrary.amnh.org/dspace/bitstream/2246/5745/5/M11Pt02.pdf), the Aurora Borealis is made of the spirits of the people who died a violent death. Some of them are playing soccer in the sky with a walrus head:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Aurora Borealis is chiefly the place of abode for those who die a sudden or violent death. The whitish spots are the people who died from contagious diseases; the red spots are those stabbed with a knife; the dark spots are those strangled by the &quot;spirits&quot; of nervous diseases; the changeable rays are deceased people running about and playing ball with a walrus-head which is alive. It roars when in motion, after it has been tossed. It wants to strike with its tusks anybody who tries to catch it. Men who have been strangled with a slip-noose at their own request, have honorary places among the spectators; or they themselves may play, but do so in a very awkward manner, because of the rope dangling behind them on the ground.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt; W. Bogoras, 1907. [The Chukchee – Religion (Part II)](http://digitallibrary.amnh.org/dspace/bitstream/2246/5745/5/M11Pt02.pdf). Memoirs of the American Museum of Natural History.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This narrative seems to be relatively widespread among Eskimo people since the Inuits from Labrador had similar beliefs:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Only the spirits of those who have died a voluntary or violent death, and the raven, have been over this pathway. The spirits who live there light torches to guide the feet of new arrivals. This is the light of the aurora. They can be seen there feasting and playing football with a walrus skull.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Extract from *Aurora: the northern lights in mythology, history and science.*](https://books.google.de/books?hl=en&amp;lr=&amp;id=Poxcz5AbrpcC&amp;oi=fnd&amp;pg=PA7&amp;dq=aurora+borealis+walrus&amp;ots=g6T54jsM0l&amp;sig=aRI-ornG4GcLU1_8NPhxoahMpwg#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false) &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The soccer game with a walrus head was also rapported by Knud Rasmussen for the Iglulik Inuits:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Here, they are constantly playing ball, the Eskimos' favourite game, laughing and singing, and the ball&#xD;&#xA;they play with is the skull of a walrus. The object is to kick the skull&#xD;&#xA;in such a manner that is always falls with the tusks downwards, and&#xD;&#xA;thus sticks fast in the ground. It is this ball game of the departed&#xD;&#xA;souls that appears as the aurora borealis, and is heard as a whistling,&#xD;&#xA;rustling, crackling sound. The noise is made by the souls as they&#xD;&#xA;run across the frost-hardened snow of the heavens. If one happens&#xD;&#xA;to be out alone at night when the aurora borealis is visible, and&#xD;&#xA;hears this whistling sound, one has only to whistle in return and&#xD;&#xA;the lights will come nearer, out of curiosity.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Rasmussen, K., 1929. [The Intellectual Culture of the Iglulik Eskimos](https://archive.org/details/intellectualcult00rasm). Report of the 5th Thule Expedition 1921-1924.&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4456" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="965" RevisionGUID="00825b37-0d6d-477a-9fbd-1c0a74b8f32a" CreationDate="2015-06-24T08:24:15.877" UserId="398" Text="In fact, several! Four immediately come to mind: **Dionysus**, **Inanna**/**Ishtar**, **Aphrodite**, and **Cybele**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First up is Dionysus, a god best known for wine and drunkenness, but surely you can see how that quickly is connected to other, darker qualities. Already in the earliest text mentioning him, Dionysus is a god of two natures, &quot;joy and sorrow&quot; as Hesiod (or Pseudo-Hesiod) in the *Catalogue of Women* fr. 179 Most (= fr. 87 Evelyn-White, for those with the older Loeb or are looking online) puts it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;...Dionysus gave to Mmen as a delight and as a burden  &#xD;&#xA;Whoever drinks his fill, the wine becomes maddening for him,  &#xD;&#xA;it binds together his feet and his hands and his tongue and his mind  &#xD;&#xA;with invisible bonds, and soft sleep loves him.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Trans. Glenn Most, Loeb Classical Library)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Clearly Dionysus embodies the very nature of alcohol.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aside from the power which comes from over-intoxication, there were also his attendants, the Maenads (also called the Bacchae or Bacchantes). These women roamed the countryside in drunken, mad revelry. In their frenzy, though, they were also known to kill because of the altered state that received from Dionysus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Two of the most famous of this event were the killing of Orpheus and the killing of Pentheus. Orpheus, the eminent musician of the ancient Greek world, who with his lyre charmed Hades himself into giving him back his wife, in grief after losing his wife again (he was instructed not to turn back to look at her before they left the cave, and yet when he neared the end he could not help himself), was torn apart by Maenads in Thrace.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The death of Pentheus is recounted in Euripides' [*Bacchae*](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0092). There Pentheus the king of Thebes refused the worship of Dionysus, so the god made local women crazy, including Pentheus' own mother, and they tore him to pieces.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ancients made it clear the god himself was part of this hallucinogenic enterprise:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;While busily engaged, with sudden beat  &#xD;&#xA;they hear resounding tambourines; and pipes  &#xD;&#xA;and crooked horns and tinkling brass renew,  &#xD;&#xA;unseen, the note; saffron and myrrh dissolve  &#xD;&#xA;in dulcet odours; and, beyond belief,  &#xD;&#xA;the woven webs, dependent on the loom,  &#xD;&#xA;take tints of green, put forth new ivy leaves,  &#xD;&#xA;or change to grape-vines verdant. There the thread  &#xD;&#xA;is twisted into tendrils, there the warp  &#xD;&#xA;is fashioned into many-moving leaves—  &#xD;&#xA;the purple lends its splendour to the grape.  &#xD;&#xA;And now the day is past; it is the hour  &#xD;&#xA;when night ambiguous merges into day,  &#xD;&#xA;which dubious owns nor light nor dun obscure;  &#xD;&#xA;and suddenly the house begins to shake,  &#xD;&#xA;and torches oil-dipped seem to flare around,  &#xD;&#xA;and fires a-glow to shine in every room,  &#xD;&#xA;and phantoms, feigned of savage beasts, to howl.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ovid, *Metamorphoses* 4.391–404, trans. by More 1922&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The next goddesses are **Ishtar** and **Inanna**, with Isthar being the Akkadian equivalent of the Sumerian Inanna, and therefore there is considerable overlap between the two. Nevertheless, despite Ishtar's recognition, Inanna precedes her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the central myths of **Inanna** is the *Descent of Inanna*. Here Inanna comes to visit her sister Ereshkigal in the Underworld, when her sister has her stripped of her garments (symbolic of her power) and tries to force her to remain there. Inanna was able to escape by offering a substitute, and she ended up choosing her lover (husband?) Dumuzi.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It should be also noted that she utterly leveled Ebih, a mountain which refused to worship her. Yet clearly she's also a sexual goddess. The historical Shulgi, king of Ur, uses terms like &quot;my consort&quot; and &quot;your beloved husband&quot; in describing his relationship with the goddess. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This and other hymns lead some scholars to see her as a powerful goddess, whose personality could be highly erotic but simultaneously utterly destructive.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Semitic people of southern Iraq borrowed these myths of Inanna for their goddess **Ishtar**, whom they equated. Not much more can be said about Ishtar and Tammuz (the Akkadian version of Dumuzi) that Gilgamesh, in his famous epic, hadn't already:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Woe to him whom Ishtar had honoured! The fickle goddess treated her passing lovers cruelly, and the unhappy wretches usually paid dearly for the favours heaped on them. Animals, enslaved by love, lost their native vigour: they fell into traps laid by men or were domesticated by them. 'Thou has loved the lion, mighty in strength', says the hero Gilgamesh to Ishtar, 'and thou hast dug for him seven and seven pits! Thou hast loved the steed, proud in battle, and destined him for the halter, the goad and the whip.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Listen to me while I tell the tale of your lovers. There was Tammuz, the lover of your youth, for him you decreed wailing, year after year. You loved the many-coloured Lilac-breasted Roller, but still you struck and broke his wing [...] You have loved the lion tremendous in strength: seven pits you dug for him, and seven. You have loved the stallion magnificent in battle, and for him you decreed the whip and spur and a thong [...] You have loved the shepherd of the flock; he made meal-cake for you day after day, he killed kids for your sake. You struck and turned him into a wolf; now his own herd-boys chase him away, his own hounds worry his flanks.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Epic of Gilgamesh* Tablet 6, trans. by Sandars 1972&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Reference and further reading:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gwendolyn Leick 1994. *Sex and Eroticism in Mesopotamian Literature*. Routledge.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See in particular chapter 9 (&quot;Inanna Rejoicing in Her Vulva&quot;) and chapter 10 (&quot;'My Consort, Maid Inanna, Lady Voluptuousness of Heaven and Earth'&quot;).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Next is **Cybele**, originally an Anatolian wilderness/mountain goddess who was later imported to Greece and Rome.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This goddess' most famous story seems a neat parallel with Inanna/Ishtar, though it's too speculative to say whether there is a direct connection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ovid in his *Fasti* (a lengthy etiological elegy of the Roman calendar) sums it up nicely:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I said ‘Where did this urge to cut off  &#xD;&#xA;Their members come from?’ As I ended, the Muse spoke:  &#xD;&#xA;‘In the woods, a Phrygian boy, Attis, of handsome face,  &#xD;&#xA;Won the tower-bearing goddess with his chaste passion.  &#xD;&#xA;She desired him to serve her, and protect her temple,  &#xD;&#xA;And said: “Wish, you might be a boy for ever.”  &#xD;&#xA;He promised to be true, and said: “If I’m lying  &#xD;&#xA;May the love I fail in be my last love.”  &#xD;&#xA;He did fail, and in meeting the nymph Sagaritis,  &#xD;&#xA;Abandoned what he was: the goddess, angered, avenged it.  &#xD;&#xA;She destroyed the Naiad, by wounding a tree,  &#xD;&#xA;Since the tree contained the Naiad’s fate.  &#xD;&#xA;Attis was maddened, and thinking his chamber’s roof  &#xD;&#xA;Was falling, fled for the summit of Mount Dindymus.  &#xD;&#xA;Now he cried: “Remove the torches”, now he cried:  &#xD;&#xA;“Take the whips away”: often swearing he saw the Furies.  &#xD;&#xA;He tore at his body too with a sharp stone,  &#xD;&#xA;And dragged his long hair in the filthy dust,  &#xD;&#xA;Shouting: “I deserved this! I pay the due penalty  &#xD;&#xA;In blood! Ah! Let the parts that harmed me, perish!  &#xD;&#xA;Let them perish!” cutting away the burden of his groin,  &#xD;&#xA;And suddenly bereft of every mark of manhood.  &#xD;&#xA;His madness set a precedent, and his unmanly servants  &#xD;&#xA;Toss their hair, and cut off their members as if worthless.’&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ovid, *Fasti* 4.221-242 (trans. Kline 2004)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interestingly, several ancient authors (e.g. Apollodorus 3.5) state that Cybele taught to Dionysus the *orgia*, the ecstatic and frenzied form of worship in their respective cults. Orpheus, said to have been killed by Bacchantes, as aforementioned the ecstatic and frenzied worshipers of Dionysus, also had orgiastic mysteries.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The last of the goddesses I'll mention is **Aphrodite**. The infamous goddess of love is called Venus by the Romans, there is thus a connection to Inanna/Ishtar, who were said to have been represented by the planet Venus (as too was Aphrodite and Venus).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like alcohol, love can be good or bad, and it shows with her. Befitting the goddess of love, she was also said to be the most beautiful goddess. She was married to Hephaestus (= Vulcan), a lame and disfigured god but an excellent craftsman, and already in Homer she is caught by him having an affair with the more handsome Ares (= Mars).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Her destructive power was manifest in different ways. First, as the most beautiful goddess, she won the &quot;beauty contest&quot; (caused by a golden apple thrown at a party on Olympus on which was inscribed &quot;to the most beautiful&quot;) with the Trojan prince Paris (also called Alexander, not at all to be confused with Alexander the Great) judging her, Hera (= Juno, Queen of the Gods, goddess of childbirth), and Athena (= Minvera, a goddess of wisdom, craft, and skill)—the event is now aptly named The Judgment of Paris). Most will know how this story ends: Paris receives as a bribery gift the hand of Helen of Sparta, wife to Menelaus, who thereupon with his brother Agamemnon and &quot;all the Achaeans, Danaans, and Argives&quot; attack Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ever since then, &quot;love and war&quot; was a major theme throughout all of Greek and Roman literature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a connection with Inanna/Ishtar, too. First, Aphrodite used to be connected to war more intimately than merely the cause of the Trojan War. Some early depictions of Aphrodite have her suited up for battle. There's also the story inside the *Iliad* in which Aphrodite fights, is wounded by Diomedes, and cries to her mother, the goddess Dione, after which Zeus then chastises her for being out of place in war:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This only drew a smile from the Father of men and gods. Calling golden Aphrodite to his side, he said: &quot;War is not for you, my child, tend to the loving deeds of wedlock, and leave the fighting to Ares the swift and to Athene.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Homer, *Iliad* 428-430, trans. Kline 2009&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The whole scene is a close parallel to Ishtar who, after Gilgamesh insulted her (referencing Tammuz/Dumizi), flies up to her father Anu, and asks him to release Gugalanna the mighty Bull of Heaven to punish Gilgamesh, though it was then slain by Gilgamesh's companion Enkidu, who himself died because of it).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Homer therefore is likely to be combating the existent idea of Aphrodite as a goddess of *both* love and war. Even if he was fairly successful, her destructive powers were still seen. I always found this vase to be a nice representation of this: http://www.theoi.com/Gallery/K9.1.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To further this connection, Aphrodite also had a lover, whose name was **Adonis**, most certainly connected to the Semitic word *adon*, meaning &quot;lord&quot; (whence Hebrew *adonai* meaning &quot;My Lord&quot;). Pseudo-Apollodorus has the best summary (shorter than Ovid's, whose is the best story, but not a summary):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Because of Aphrodite's wrath** (for she did not honour Aphrodite), Smyrna developed a lust for her father, and with the help of her nurse slept with him for twelve nights without his knowing it. When he found out he drew his sword and started after her, and as he was about to overtake her, she prayed to the gods to become invisible. The gods took pity on her and changed her into the tree called the Smyrna. Nine months later the tree split open and the baby named Adonis was born. Because of his beauty, Aphrodite secreted him away in a chest, keeping it from the gods, and left him with Persephone. But when Persephone got a glimpse of Adonis, she refused to return him. When the matter was brought to Zeus for arbitration, he divided the year into three parts and decreed that Adonis would spent one third of the year by himself, one third with Persephone, and the rest with Aphrodite. But Adonis added his own portion to Aphrodite’s. Later on, while hunting, he was attacked by a boar and died.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus *Bibliotecha* 3.18 trans. Aldrich 1921&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(I highlighted above a nice phrase summarizing this response!)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also concerns of the Underworld, similar to Inanna and Dumuzi:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; On his death Adonis was obliged to descend into the lower world, but he was allowed to spend six months out of every year with his beloved Aphrodite in the upper world. (Orph. hymn. 55. 10.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Adonis&quot; in *A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology*, ed. by William Smith." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4457" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="965" RevisionGUID="9b830080-b69e-45bc-b9c3-2e445f4b16c8" CreationDate="2015-06-24T09:35:31.203" UserId="57" Comment="added headings to separate the god specific sections a bit more clearly" Text="In fact, several! Four immediately come to mind: **Dionysus**, **Inanna**/**Ishtar**, **Aphrodite**, and **Cybele**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Dionysus&#xD;&#xA;First up is Dionysus, a god best known for wine and drunkenness, but surely you can see how that quickly is connected to other, darker qualities. Already in the earliest text mentioning him, Dionysus is a god of two natures, &quot;joy and sorrow&quot; as Hesiod (or Pseudo-Hesiod) in the *Catalogue of Women* fr. 179 Most (= fr. 87 Evelyn-White, for those with the older Loeb or are looking online) puts it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;...Dionysus gave to Mmen as a delight and as a burden  &#xD;&#xA;Whoever drinks his fill, the wine becomes maddening for him,  &#xD;&#xA;it binds together his feet and his hands and his tongue and his mind  &#xD;&#xA;with invisible bonds, and soft sleep loves him.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Trans. Glenn Most, Loeb Classical Library)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Clearly Dionysus embodies the very nature of alcohol.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aside from the power which comes from over-intoxication, there were also his attendants, the Maenads (also called the Bacchae or Bacchantes). These women roamed the countryside in drunken, mad revelry. In their frenzy, though, they were also known to kill because of the altered state that received from Dionysus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Two of the most famous of this event were the killing of Orpheus and the killing of Pentheus. Orpheus, the eminent musician of the ancient Greek world, who with his lyre charmed Hades himself into giving him back his wife, in grief after losing his wife again (he was instructed not to turn back to look at her before they left the cave, and yet when he neared the end he could not help himself), was torn apart by Maenads in Thrace.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The death of Pentheus is recounted in Euripides' [*Bacchae*](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0092). There Pentheus the king of Thebes refused the worship of Dionysus, so the god made local women crazy, including Pentheus' own mother, and they tore him to pieces.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ancients made it clear the god himself was part of this hallucinogenic enterprise:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;While busily engaged, with sudden beat  &#xD;&#xA;they hear resounding tambourines; and pipes  &#xD;&#xA;and crooked horns and tinkling brass renew,  &#xD;&#xA;unseen, the note; saffron and myrrh dissolve  &#xD;&#xA;in dulcet odours; and, beyond belief,  &#xD;&#xA;the woven webs, dependent on the loom,  &#xD;&#xA;take tints of green, put forth new ivy leaves,  &#xD;&#xA;or change to grape-vines verdant. There the thread  &#xD;&#xA;is twisted into tendrils, there the warp  &#xD;&#xA;is fashioned into many-moving leaves—  &#xD;&#xA;the purple lends its splendour to the grape.  &#xD;&#xA;And now the day is past; it is the hour  &#xD;&#xA;when night ambiguous merges into day,  &#xD;&#xA;which dubious owns nor light nor dun obscure;  &#xD;&#xA;and suddenly the house begins to shake,  &#xD;&#xA;and torches oil-dipped seem to flare around,  &#xD;&#xA;and fires a-glow to shine in every room,  &#xD;&#xA;and phantoms, feigned of savage beasts, to howl.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ovid, *Metamorphoses* 4.391–404, trans. by More 1922&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##Inanna/Ishtar&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The next goddesses are **Ishtar** and **Inanna**, with Isthar being the Akkadian equivalent of the Sumerian Inanna, and therefore there is considerable overlap between the two. Nevertheless, despite Ishtar's recognition, Inanna precedes her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the central myths of **Inanna** is the *Descent of Inanna*. Here Inanna comes to visit her sister Ereshkigal in the Underworld, when her sister has her stripped of her garments (symbolic of her power) and tries to force her to remain there. Inanna was able to escape by offering a substitute, and she ended up choosing her lover (husband?) Dumuzi.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It should be also noted that she utterly leveled Ebih, a mountain which refused to worship her. Yet clearly she's also a sexual goddess. The historical Shulgi, king of Ur, uses terms like &quot;my consort&quot; and &quot;your beloved husband&quot; in describing his relationship with the goddess. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This and other hymns lead some scholars to see her as a powerful goddess, whose personality could be highly erotic but simultaneously utterly destructive.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Semitic people of southern Iraq borrowed these myths of Inanna for their goddess **Ishtar**, whom they equated. Not much more can be said about Ishtar and Tammuz (the Akkadian version of Dumuzi) that Gilgamesh, in his famous epic, hadn't already:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Woe to him whom Ishtar had honoured! The fickle goddess treated her passing lovers cruelly, and the unhappy wretches usually paid dearly for the favours heaped on them. Animals, enslaved by love, lost their native vigour: they fell into traps laid by men or were domesticated by them. 'Thou has loved the lion, mighty in strength', says the hero Gilgamesh to Ishtar, 'and thou hast dug for him seven and seven pits! Thou hast loved the steed, proud in battle, and destined him for the halter, the goad and the whip.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Listen to me while I tell the tale of your lovers. There was Tammuz, the lover of your youth, for him you decreed wailing, year after year. You loved the many-coloured Lilac-breasted Roller, but still you struck and broke his wing [...] You have loved the lion tremendous in strength: seven pits you dug for him, and seven. You have loved the stallion magnificent in battle, and for him you decreed the whip and spur and a thong [...] You have loved the shepherd of the flock; he made meal-cake for you day after day, he killed kids for your sake. You struck and turned him into a wolf; now his own herd-boys chase him away, his own hounds worry his flanks.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Epic of Gilgamesh* Tablet 6, trans. by Sandars 1972&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Reference and further reading:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gwendolyn Leick 1994. *Sex and Eroticism in Mesopotamian Literature*. Routledge.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See in particular chapter 9 (&quot;Inanna Rejoicing in Her Vulva&quot;) and chapter 10 (&quot;'My Consort, Maid Inanna, Lady Voluptuousness of Heaven and Earth'&quot;).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##Cybele&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Next is **Cybele**, originally an Anatolian wilderness/mountain goddess who was later imported to Greece and Rome.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This goddess' most famous story seems a neat parallel with Inanna/Ishtar, though it's too speculative to say whether there is a direct connection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ovid in his *Fasti* (a lengthy etiological elegy of the Roman calendar) sums it up nicely:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I said ‘Where did this urge to cut off  &#xD;&#xA;Their members come from?’ As I ended, the Muse spoke:  &#xD;&#xA;‘In the woods, a Phrygian boy, Attis, of handsome face,  &#xD;&#xA;Won the tower-bearing goddess with his chaste passion.  &#xD;&#xA;She desired him to serve her, and protect her temple,  &#xD;&#xA;And said: “Wish, you might be a boy for ever.”  &#xD;&#xA;He promised to be true, and said: “If I’m lying  &#xD;&#xA;May the love I fail in be my last love.”  &#xD;&#xA;He did fail, and in meeting the nymph Sagaritis,  &#xD;&#xA;Abandoned what he was: the goddess, angered, avenged it.  &#xD;&#xA;She destroyed the Naiad, by wounding a tree,  &#xD;&#xA;Since the tree contained the Naiad’s fate.  &#xD;&#xA;Attis was maddened, and thinking his chamber’s roof  &#xD;&#xA;Was falling, fled for the summit of Mount Dindymus.  &#xD;&#xA;Now he cried: “Remove the torches”, now he cried:  &#xD;&#xA;“Take the whips away”: often swearing he saw the Furies.  &#xD;&#xA;He tore at his body too with a sharp stone,  &#xD;&#xA;And dragged his long hair in the filthy dust,  &#xD;&#xA;Shouting: “I deserved this! I pay the due penalty  &#xD;&#xA;In blood! Ah! Let the parts that harmed me, perish!  &#xD;&#xA;Let them perish!” cutting away the burden of his groin,  &#xD;&#xA;And suddenly bereft of every mark of manhood.  &#xD;&#xA;His madness set a precedent, and his unmanly servants  &#xD;&#xA;Toss their hair, and cut off their members as if worthless.’&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ovid, *Fasti* 4.221-242 (trans. Kline 2004)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interestingly, several ancient authors (e.g. Apollodorus 3.5) state that Cybele taught to Dionysus the *orgia*, the ecstatic and frenzied form of worship in their respective cults. Orpheus, said to have been killed by Bacchantes, as aforementioned the ecstatic and frenzied worshipers of Dionysus, also had orgiastic mysteries.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##Aphrodite&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The last of the goddesses I'll mention is **Aphrodite**. The infamous goddess of love is called Venus by the Romans, there is thus a connection to Inanna/Ishtar, who were said to have been represented by the planet Venus (as too was Aphrodite and Venus).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like alcohol, love can be good or bad, and it shows with her. Befitting the goddess of love, she was also said to be the most beautiful goddess. She was married to Hephaestus (= Vulcan), a lame and disfigured god but an excellent craftsman, and already in Homer she is caught by him having an affair with the more handsome Ares (= Mars).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Her destructive power was manifest in different ways. First, as the most beautiful goddess, she won the &quot;beauty contest&quot; (caused by a golden apple thrown at a party on Olympus on which was inscribed &quot;to the most beautiful&quot;) with the Trojan prince Paris (also called Alexander, not at all to be confused with Alexander the Great) judging her, Hera (= Juno, Queen of the Gods, goddess of childbirth), and Athena (= Minvera, a goddess of wisdom, craft, and skill)—the event is now aptly named The Judgment of Paris). Most will know how this story ends: Paris receives as a bribery gift the hand of Helen of Sparta, wife to Menelaus, who thereupon with his brother Agamemnon and &quot;all the Achaeans, Danaans, and Argives&quot; attack Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ever since then, &quot;love and war&quot; was a major theme throughout all of Greek and Roman literature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a connection with Inanna/Ishtar, too. First, Aphrodite used to be connected to war more intimately than merely the cause of the Trojan War. Some early depictions of Aphrodite have her suited up for battle. There's also the story inside the *Iliad* in which Aphrodite fights, is wounded by Diomedes, and cries to her mother, the goddess Dione, after which Zeus then chastises her for being out of place in war:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This only drew a smile from the Father of men and gods. Calling golden Aphrodite to his side, he said: &quot;War is not for you, my child, tend to the loving deeds of wedlock, and leave the fighting to Ares the swift and to Athene.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Homer, *Iliad* 428-430, trans. Kline 2009&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The whole scene is a close parallel to Ishtar who, after Gilgamesh insulted her (referencing Tammuz/Dumizi), flies up to her father Anu, and asks him to release Gugalanna the mighty Bull of Heaven to punish Gilgamesh, though it was then slain by Gilgamesh's companion Enkidu, who himself died because of it).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Homer therefore is likely to be combating the existent idea of Aphrodite as a goddess of *both* love and war. Even if he was fairly successful, her destructive powers were still seen. I always found this vase to be a nice representation of this: http://www.theoi.com/Gallery/K9.1.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To further this connection, Aphrodite also had a lover, whose name was **Adonis**, most certainly connected to the Semitic word *adon*, meaning &quot;lord&quot; (whence Hebrew *adonai* meaning &quot;My Lord&quot;). Pseudo-Apollodorus has the best summary (shorter than Ovid's, whose is the best story, but not a summary):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Because of Aphrodite's wrath** (for she did not honour Aphrodite), Smyrna developed a lust for her father, and with the help of her nurse slept with him for twelve nights without his knowing it. When he found out he drew his sword and started after her, and as he was about to overtake her, she prayed to the gods to become invisible. The gods took pity on her and changed her into the tree called the Smyrna. Nine months later the tree split open and the baby named Adonis was born. Because of his beauty, Aphrodite secreted him away in a chest, keeping it from the gods, and left him with Persephone. But when Persephone got a glimpse of Adonis, she refused to return him. When the matter was brought to Zeus for arbitration, he divided the year into three parts and decreed that Adonis would spent one third of the year by himself, one third with Persephone, and the rest with Aphrodite. But Adonis added his own portion to Aphrodite’s. Later on, while hunting, he was attacked by a boar and died.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus *Bibliotecha* 3.18 trans. Aldrich 1921&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(I highlighted above a nice phrase summarizing this response!)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also concerns of the Underworld, similar to Inanna and Dumuzi:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; On his death Adonis was obliged to descend into the lower world, but he was allowed to spend six months out of every year with his beloved Aphrodite in the upper world. (Orph. hymn. 55. 10.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Adonis&quot; in *A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology*, ed. by William Smith." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4458" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="961" RevisionGUID="2b1bde26-cbb1-4643-a87a-b985c02e8ff7" CreationDate="2015-06-24T15:10:15.990" UserId="466" Comment="deleted 27 characters in body" Text="Basically, which nations have stories explaining either the Northern or Southern Lights?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4460" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="966" RevisionGUID="5ce2659e-58bb-4f51-85e4-721de2755542" CreationDate="2015-06-24T19:55:37.407" UserId="292" Text="I hope this doesn't break the rules, but I wrote a post on my blog about both the Northern and Southern lights awhile ago. It covers Inuit, Finnish, Scandinavian, Native American and Australian lore. You might find the references helpful, anyway.  &#xD;&#xA;http://earthandstarryheaven.com/2015/02/19/aurora-borealis/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4461" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="967" RevisionGUID="1337a382-d2a0-470d-a3ef-255a6802686b" CreationDate="2015-06-24T20:03:25.550" UserId="292" Text="The Irish goddess [the Morrigan][1] is a fearsome war-goddess who also embodies sovereignty. As such, she mates with the chief god, and in the [Cattle Raid of Cooley][2] she offers victory to Cuchullain if he will be her lover. He refuses, and she then proceeds to destroy him. She's a very complex goddess, incorporating lover and death aspects, as well as being a goddess of the land. There's a number of books and websites dedicated to her. (Some connect her to [Morgan la Fay][3] in the Arthurian legends, but that's controversial.) Her emblem is the crow, a carrion bird.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://inanna.virtualave.net/morrigan.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.druidry.org/library/gods-goddesses/morrigan" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4462" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="968" RevisionGUID="4fbb9454-74b4-4821-a512-20e66d717aa3" CreationDate="2015-06-24T20:06:16.537" UserId="42" Text="There are a number of explanations that have been provided for it.  It seems that which is correct depends on the location and storyteller.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Attempting to come to a single conclusion that can be generally agreed upon seems to be impossible:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The attempt to find a tradition what is recognized by the whole tribal community has unfortunately come to nothing.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Sterbende Welt in Nordwest-Australien](https://books.google.com/books/about/Sterbende_Welt_in_Nordwest_Australien.html) by Helmut Petri&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And there is a strong indication that some areas or storytellers simply do not offer an explanation of the phenomenon:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Both authors [Elkin and Love] also investigated why Wanjina paintings lacked mouths, and whether	they were depicted wearing clothing. Neither obtained any clear rationale for the Wanjina’s lack of a mouth.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Wanjina: Notes on Some Iconic Ancestral Beings of the Northern Kimberly](http://www.kimberleyfoundation.org.au/uploads/41632/ufiles/Wanjina_LR.pdf) by Kim Ackerman&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The facts available from the wikipedia article, that they are so powerful as to not require a mouth for communication, and that opening their mouths would results in floods, can be seen here, and is cited to [&quot;Rock Art of the Dreamtime&quot; by Josephine Flood](http://www.amazon.com/Rock-Art-Dreamtime-Ancient-Australia/dp/0207189080).  I don't have access to that book, but it seems reasonable to assume that is the correct source for the statements in the Wikipedia article.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The absence of a mouth represents the idea that Wandjina are so powerful that they do not require speech. If a mouth was to appear on a Wandjina image, this would portend floods and cyclones. A band usually surrounds the head of the Wandjina with outward radiating lines, signifying the feathers that the Wandjinas wore and the lightning that they control.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Protected the Spiritual Beliefs of Indigenous Peoples - Australiam Case Studies](https://digital.lib.washington.edu/dspace-law/bitstream/handle/1773.1/1236/22PRLPJ391.pdf) by Michael Blakeney&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They are generally thought of as bringers of rain, and in support of their open mouths causing rainfall, a Wunambal artistic ritual:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He notes that after repainting the artist &quot;...fills his mouth with water and blows the water over the picture.  This is done because the Wondschina in primeval times used to blow rain over the land in this way&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Wanjina: Notes on Some Iconic Ancestral Beings of the Northern Kimberly](http://www.kimberleyfoundation.org.au/uploads/41632/ufiles/Wanjina_LR.pdf) by Kim Ackerman&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, a few examples:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[&quot;The Rainbow Serpent: A Chromatic Piece&quot;](https://books.google.com/books?id=Bk8JPlhJbPwC&amp;pg=PA16) relates an Ungarinyin story that their mouths were closed by a giant serpent called &quot;Ungud&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thus she [Ungud] had neither mouth nor ears when she came from the sea (1954: 108), she closed the mouths of the *wondjina* (1954: 107), and, after making the land rise from the sea, she traveled across it laying eggs that hatched into *wondjina* (1954: 101).  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[&quot;The Rainbow Serpent: A Chromatic Piece&quot;](https://books.google.com/books?id=Bk8JPlhJbPwC&amp;pg=PA16) ed. Ira R. Buchler, Kenneth Maddock&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another Ungarinyin source is shown giving a somewhat different explanation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A Wanjina named Ralamara met another called Dadmanmuro near Djelariba.  The former spoke Nyigina, and as the latter was going to say something, which Ralamara knew he was not going to like, he put his hand to Dadmanmuro's mouth and blocked it, and the defect has spread to all other Wandjinas.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Wanjina: Notes on Some Iconic Ancestral Beings of the Northern Kimberly](http://www.kimberleyfoundation.org.au/uploads/41632/ufiles/Wanjina_LR.pdf) by Kim Ackerman&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another claim is that Wandjina do have mouths, and when they speak, we hear thunder.  But that the &quot;artists who painted the Wandjinas could not draw a mouth because no mouth as depicted on the face could make the great sound of thunder&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And a number of other accounts have been collected as well.  Take a look at [Wanjina: Notes on Some Iconic Ancestral Beings of the Northern Kimberly](http://www.kimberleyfoundation.org.au/uploads/41632/ufiles/Wanjina_LR.pdf) section titled &quot;Statements Regarding the Lack of a Mouth on Wanjina Images&quot;, on page 107, for some more example.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another researcher, Lester Hiatt, makes a quite different postulation:  That the wandjina may be an illustration of the male gentalia enclosed within a vagina:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It would be consistent with the description of Unggud as bisexual if the apparent facial configuration of the wonjina was meant to represent the male genitalia (testicles and penis) inside the vagina.  The horizontal segmentation of the 'nose' would then be explicable as a differentiation of the glans from the shaft, and the absence of a mounth would no longer be a mystery.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt; &quot;Arguments about Aborigines: Australia and the evolution of social anthropology&quot; Lester Hiatt&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![A Wandjina][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/BuXUq.png &quot;NSFW!&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4463" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="968" RevisionGUID="3070177a-054f-4744-a97b-18241da6e413" CreationDate="2015-06-24T20:52:31.197" UserId="42" Comment="added 58 characters in body" Text="There are a number of explanations that have been provided for it.  It seems that which is correct depends on the location and storyteller.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Attempting to come to a single conclusion that can be generally agreed upon seems to be impossible:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The attempt to find a tradition what is recognized by the whole tribal community has unfortunately come to nothing.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Sterbende Welt in Nordwest-Australien](https://books.google.com/books/about/Sterbende_Welt_in_Nordwest_Australien.html) by Helmut Petri&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And there is a strong indication that some areas or storytellers simply do not offer an explanation of the phenomenon:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Both authors [Elkin and Love] also investigated why Wanjina paintings lacked mouths, and whether	they were depicted wearing clothing. Neither obtained any clear rationale for the Wanjina’s lack of a mouth.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Wanjina: Notes on Some Iconic Ancestral Beings of the Northern Kimberly](http://www.kimberleyfoundation.org.au/uploads/41632/ufiles/Wanjina_LR.pdf) by Kim Ackerman&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The facts available from the wikipedia article, that they are so powerful as to not require a mouth for communication, and that opening their mouths would results in floods, can be seen here, and is cited to [&quot;Rock Art of the Dreamtime&quot; by Josephine Flood](http://www.amazon.com/Rock-Art-Dreamtime-Ancient-Australia/dp/0207189080).  I don't have access to that book, but it seems reasonable to assume that is the correct source for the statements in the Wikipedia article.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The absence of a mouth represents the idea that Wandjina are so powerful that they do not require speech. If a mouth was to appear on a Wandjina image, this would portend floods and cyclones. A band usually surrounds the head of the Wandjina with outward radiating lines, signifying the feathers that the Wandjinas wore and the lightning that they control.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Protected the Spiritual Beliefs of Indigenous Peoples - Australiam Case Studies](https://digital.lib.washington.edu/dspace-law/bitstream/handle/1773.1/1236/22PRLPJ391.pdf) by Michael Blakeney&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They are generally thought of as bringers of rain, and in support of their open mouths causing rainfall, a Wunambal artistic ritual:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He notes that after repainting the artist &quot;...fills his mouth with water and blows the water over the picture.  This is done because the Wondschina in primeval times used to blow rain over the land in this way&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Wanjina: Notes on Some Iconic Ancestral Beings of the Northern Kimberly](http://www.kimberleyfoundation.org.au/uploads/41632/ufiles/Wanjina_LR.pdf) by Kim Ackerman&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As I said before, though, there are plenty of other stories.  So, a few examples:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[&quot;The Rainbow Serpent: A Chromatic Piece&quot;](https://books.google.com/books?id=Bk8JPlhJbPwC&amp;pg=PA16) relates an Ungarinyin story that their mouths were closed by a giant serpent called &quot;Ungud&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thus she [Ungud] had neither mouth nor ears when she came from the sea (1954: 108), she closed the mouths of the *wondjina* (1954: 107), and, after making the land rise from the sea, she traveled across it laying eggs that hatched into *wondjina* (1954: 101).  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[&quot;The Rainbow Serpent: A Chromatic Piece&quot;](https://books.google.com/books?id=Bk8JPlhJbPwC&amp;pg=PA16) ed. Ira R. Buchler, Kenneth Maddock (Citations refer to Petri's &quot;Sterbende Welt in Nordwest-Australien&quot;)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another Ungarinyin source is shown giving a somewhat different explanation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A Wanjina named Ralamara met another called Dadmanmuro near Djelariba.  The former spoke Nyigina, and as the latter was going to say something, which Ralamara knew he was not going to like, he put his hand to Dadmanmuro's mouth and blocked it, and the defect has spread to all other Wandjinas.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Wanjina: Notes on Some Iconic Ancestral Beings of the Northern Kimberly](http://www.kimberleyfoundation.org.au/uploads/41632/ufiles/Wanjina_LR.pdf) by Kim Ackerman&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another claim is that Wandjina do have mouths, and when they speak, we hear thunder.  But that the &quot;artists who painted the Wandjinas could not draw a mouth because no mouth as depicted on the face could make the great sound of thunder&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And a number of other accounts have been collected as well.  Take a look at [Wanjina: Notes on Some Iconic Ancestral Beings of the Northern Kimberly](http://www.kimberleyfoundation.org.au/uploads/41632/ufiles/Wanjina_LR.pdf) section titled &quot;Statements Regarding the Lack of a Mouth on Wanjina Images&quot;, on page 107, for some more example.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another researcher, Lester Hiatt, makes a quite different postulation:  That the wandjina may be an illustration of the male gentalia enclosed within a vagina:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It would be consistent with the description of Unggud as bisexual if the apparent facial configuration of the wonjina was meant to represent the male genitalia (testicles and penis) inside the vagina.  The horizontal segmentation of the 'nose' would then be explicable as a differentiation of the glans from the shaft, and the absence of a mounth would no longer be a mystery.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt; &quot;Arguments about Aborigines: Australia and the evolution of social anthropology&quot; Lester Hiatt&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![A Wandjina][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/BuXUq.png &quot;NSFW!&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4464" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="969" RevisionGUID="a917d573-bb92-4926-a26b-47b75f3e1af9" CreationDate="2015-06-24T21:58:31.170" UserId="42" Text="**They walked.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They seem to be able to move independently.  According to a wondjina artist, they walk, and travel, as the rain does.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Long Watty says Wandjina came from ground, live in clouds, rain comes after he lift cloud, rain go down.  Rain travels as the Wandjina walks - Wandjina travels.  Then Wandjina goes down with rain (or as rain?) and into ground again.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Wanjina: Notes on Some Iconic Ancestral Beings of the Northern Kimberly](http://www.kimberleyfoundation.org.au/uploads/41632/ufiles/Wanjina_LR.pdf) by Kim Ackerman&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the same paper, Ackerman presents a number of tellings of a flood caused by the Wanjina, in which references can be seen to the Wanjina walking, or at least using their feet for travel.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - &gt; Then this man comes down - this Wanjina - then he walks, he walks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - &gt; That Wanjina means that he is glad that he sunk the people down ... and he walks proudly into the hills.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - &gt; Wodjin slipped and hurt his foot, and decided to stay, and transformed himself into the painting.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have not found any references to indicate any conveyance or animal they might ride on (no idea where the silver boomerang thing came from).  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4465" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="681" RevisionGUID="a23a248e-b5a5-436c-bdf1-4222e03beacc" CreationDate="2015-06-24T22:47:27.977" UserId="42" Comment="added 18 characters in body" Text="The [four-tiered headress](http://www.naitimp3.ru/img/artist/_/78867.jpg) is frequently repeated in representations mesopotamian deities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some other examples include:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - the [Burney Relief](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burney_Relief), which depicts either Inanna or Ereshkigal:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Depiction of Shamash on a [Hammurabi stele](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - A bust of an unknown god&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - A relief of [Enki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enki)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![the Burney Relief][1]     ![Hammurabi stele][2]   ![Bust of an unknown god][3]  ![Enki][4]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These do seem to be worn by the most important deities, which seems to line up roughly with the gods Samuel Noah Kramer identifies as the &quot;Gods who Decree&quot;, which includes:  Anu, Enlil, Enki, Ninhursag, Inanna, Nanna and Shamash.  If we conclude the Burney Relief is Ereshkigal, then perhaps her too, I suppose.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lesser gods seem to often wear hats like this one (shown on Nergal):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Nergal with hat][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as the horned helmet on the lower seal, the fellow on the right (probably Enkidu) has noticeably bovine legs and tail.  The horns are probably not intended to be a helmet, but rather part of the depiction of him being half-animal.  Similar depiction seen here:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Another possible Enkidu][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Mw6DP.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/yitqJ.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/3WgPH.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/vY3t7.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/1pBHe.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/lVe39.jpg &quot;Quit looking at the camera, Gilgamesh!&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4466" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="970" RevisionGUID="ffcbdb32-4ca7-4647-9f61-d15a15758120" CreationDate="2015-06-24T22:51:14.137" UserId="398" Text="While the diachronic development of Heracles is an interesting development in and of itself, it's not really the case here. What we have instead is *one* later author's piety reflected in his treatment of heroes. This is quite common, but it would be difficult to argue from it that there is a change in character.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pindar is known for his innovation in myth on account of his piety. Perhaps his most famous contradiction of earlier myths is found in his [first Olympian ode](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0162%3Abook%3DO.) and concerns Tantalus, who cut up his son Pelops and tried to feed him to the gods (only Demeter ate any of the boy, since she was grieving for her daughter Persephone, recently snatched by Hades).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pindar's version was different. He could not think that any of the gods would have eaten Pelops, nor could he imagine Tantalus doing such a crime. For him instead Pelops was taken as a beloved by Poseidon (on analogy of Zeus and Ganymede) while the gods were feasting at Tantalus' house, and the neighbors were jealous at him and made up the stories—a very &quot;Euhemeristic&quot; explanation!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover, this isn't some interpretation of the text, Pindar is very forthright in what he is doing. He sings:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is seemly for a man to speak well of the gods; for the blame is less that way. Son of Tantalus, I will speak of you, contrary to earlier stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(trans. Svarlien)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A nice rundown of other examples (including this one in more detail) can be found in Ian Rutherford's 2011 chapter &quot;Singing Myth: Pindar&quot; in the *Blackwell Companion to Greek Mythology* pp. 109–159." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4467" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="681" RevisionGUID="3a368ce7-d2d5-42ba-b452-1da21e1e24e9" CreationDate="2015-06-24T23:16:40.517" UserId="42" Comment="Mucking about with the block of images..." Text="The [four-tiered headress](http://www.naitimp3.ru/img/artist/_/78867.jpg) is frequently repeated in representations mesopotamian deities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some other examples include:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;![Bust of an unknown god][3]  &#xD;&#xA; A bust of an unknown god&#xD;&#xA;&lt;/kbd&gt;&lt;kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;![the Burney Relief][1]  &#xD;&#xA;the [Burney Relief](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burney_Relief),  &#xD;&#xA;which depicts either Inanna or Ereshkigal.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;/kbd&gt;&lt;kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;![Enki][4]  &#xD;&#xA;A relief of [Enki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enki)&#xD;&#xA;&lt;/kbd&gt;&lt;kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;![Hammurabi stele][2]  &#xD;&#xA;Depiction of Shamash on a [Hammurabi stele](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi)&#xD;&#xA;&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These do seem to be worn by the most important deities, which seems to line up roughly with the gods Samuel Noah Kramer identifies as the &quot;Gods who Decree&quot;, which includes:  Anu, Enlil, Enki, Ninhursag, Inanna, Nanna and Shamash.  If we conclude the Burney Relief is Ereshkigal, then perhaps her too, I suppose.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lesser gods seem to often wear hats like this one (shown on Nergal):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Nergal with hat][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as the horned helmet on the lower seal, the fellow on the right (probably Enkidu) has noticeably bovine legs and tail.  The horns are probably not intended to be a helmet, but rather part of the depiction of him being half-animal.  Similar depiction seen here:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Another possible Enkidu][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Mw6DP.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/yitqJ.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/3WgPH.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/vY3t7.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/1pBHe.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/lVe39.jpg &quot;Quit looking at the camera, Gilgamesh!&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4470" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="301" RevisionGUID="31a464b0-a8df-48ea-961e-0d4aac0146be" CreationDate="2015-06-25T00:15:49.900" UserId="398" Comment="Cronus or Kronos, but Cronos is a mix of two different Romanization. Also, fixed the inaccuracy in the question. Zeus does not eat his young." Text="In Greek mythology Cronus ate his children. After he dies Zeus eats Metis, the &quot;mother&quot; of Athena. What is it with gods eating their family?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4471" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="301" RevisionGUID="31a464b0-a8df-48ea-961e-0d4aac0146be" CreationDate="2015-06-25T00:15:49.900" Comment="Proposed by 398 approved by -1 edit id of 213" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4472" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="301" RevisionGUID="61012d03-364d-4ac3-9808-822374975c5a" CreationDate="2015-06-25T00:15:49.900" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="Cronus or Kronos, but Cronos is a mix of two different Romanization. Also, fixed the inaccuracy in the question. Zeus does not eat his young." Text="What is the significance of gods eating family members in Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4473" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="301" RevisionGUID="4cb19387-2132-4379-8f69-ecb9898632fe" CreationDate="2015-06-25T04:07:37.557" UserId="42" Comment="Bringing the focus of the question back to the eating of one's offspring." Text="In Greek mythology Cronus ate his children. After he dies Zeus eats Metis, while she is pregnant with Athena.  What is it with gods eating their children?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4474" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="301" RevisionGUID="4cb19387-2132-4379-8f69-ecb9898632fe" CreationDate="2015-06-25T04:07:37.557" UserId="42" Comment="Bringing the focus of the question back to the eating of one's offspring." Text="What is the significance of gods eating offspring in Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4475" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="971" RevisionGUID="bf3602ea-4b14-43b4-bcea-95eeaa10cd0c" CreationDate="2015-06-25T04:45:54.993" UserId="467" Text="It is necessary to make some distinctions here. While the word &quot;el&quot; is a generic word for a god, it is also the proper name for the head of the Canaanite pantheon, El. His origins are most directly from the Amorite god Amurru, but going further back he shared traits with Anue (An) and Ea (once). In Ugarit he was viewed as the creator god and, with his wife Asherah, fathered the other Canaanite gods and goddesses that we see, for example, in the Ugaritic myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The answer to your question whether this is the same god as El in the Bible gets more complicated. The Canaanite El was originally the chief god in Palestine, where Israel later emerged. Yahweh, as the Bible itself attests several times (Deut. 33:2-3; Judg. 5:4-5; Hab. 3:3, 7; Ps. 68:8-9; Zech. 9:14), was originally from Seir (or Teman) in the Midian, which spans the east and west sides of the Araba valley in Sinai. Once Yahweh arrived in Palestine from migrants from the Midian (which echoes the stories in Exodus and Numbers), he had to compete for supremacy with the native Canaanite gods. Over time, El was merged into Yahweh, the survivor. Since this merger took place only over time, that's why we see so many references in the Hebrew Bible where Yahweh and El are intended as the same, or more accurately are retroactively explained as being the same. The issue is also confused because the different authors of the Hebrew Bible presenting different positions on this question. Thus, according to one version, the Hebrew god is announced as Yahweh (being the same as the god of Abraham which was El) to Moses at the burning bush (Exodus 3:15, by the Elohist author), which implies that Yahweh was not previously known to the Hebrews. But another author (known as the Yahwist, or J) calls God Yahweh even in the Eden story, and in Genesis 4:26 says that God was known as Yahweh almost from the beginning of humankind. This difference may reflect a situation where the traditional El remained strong in the northern kingdom of Israel, whereas the upstart god Yahweh was being promoted in Judah.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For further reference, this process of merger is discussed well in Mark Smith's book entitled The Early History of God.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a side note, El's wife Asherah was inherited by Yahweh as a result of their merger. That too became a big issue for proponents of official Temple religion as time went on, as they tried to eliminate her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4477" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="258" RevisionGUID="091cdfa8-39fe-4ae3-b687-cabdb616ae0c" CreationDate="2015-06-25T07:13:40.440" UserId="398" Comment="fixed &quot;ankle&quot; to &quot;angle&quot; and changed &quot;as&quot; to &quot;for&quot; to meet editing criteria" Text="It was looking _directly_ into Medusa's eyes that would turn a mortal to stone, not the whole of her face. Using the shield as a mirror meant that even if Medusa's gaze fell upon Perseus, it would be at an agle. Not that it mattered in the end, for Perseus was lucky enough to catch Medusa and her sisters sleeping:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But the Gorgons had heads twined about with the scales of dragons, and great tusks like swine's, and brazen hands, and golden wings, by which they flew; and they turned to stone such as beheld them. So Perseus stood over them as they slept, and while Athena guided his hand and he looked with averted gaze on a brazen shield, in which he beheld the image of the Gorgon,5 he beheaded her. When her head was cut off, there sprang from the Gorgon the winged horse Pegasus and Chrysaor, the father of Geryon; these she had by Poseidon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Apollod. 2.4.2](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D2%3Achapter%3D4%3Asection%3D2#note6)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It should be noted, however, that Hesiod doesn't mention the shield at all: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And again, Ceto bore to Phorcys the fair-cheeked Graiae, sisters grey from their birth: and both deathless gods and men who walk on earth call them Graiae, Pemphredo well-clad, and saffron-robed Enyo, and the Gorgons who dwell beyond glorious Ocean in the frontier land towards Night where are the clear-voiced Hesperides, Sthenno, and Euryale, and Medusa who suffered a woeful fate: she was mortal, but the two were undying and grew not old. With her lay the Dark-haired One in a soft meadow amid spring flowers. And when Perseus cut off her head, there sprang forth great Chrysaor and the horse Pegasus who is so called because he was born near the springs of Ocean; and that other, because he held a golden blade in his hands. Now Pegasus flew away and left the earth, the mother of flocks, and came to the deathless gods: and he dwells in the house of Zeus and brings to wise Zeus the thunder and lightning&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hes. Th. 280](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hes.%20Th.%20280&amp;lang=original)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4478" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="258" RevisionGUID="091cdfa8-39fe-4ae3-b687-cabdb616ae0c" CreationDate="2015-06-25T07:13:40.440" Comment="Proposed by 398 approved by -1 edit id of 214" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4479" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="258" RevisionGUID="bd4993d7-7098-471a-b17a-745f1a254eba" CreationDate="2015-06-25T07:13:40.440" UserId="111" Comment="fixed &quot;ankle&quot; to &quot;angle&quot; and changed &quot;as&quot; to &quot;for&quot; to meet editing criteria" Text="It was looking _directly_ into Medusa's eyes that would turn a mortal to stone, not the whole of her face. Using the shield as a mirror meant that even if Medusa's gaze fell upon Perseus, it would be at an angle. Not that it mattered in the end, as Perseus was lucky enough to catch Medusa and her sisters sleeping:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But the Gorgons had heads twined about with the scales of dragons, and great tusks like swine's, and brazen hands, and golden wings, by which they flew; and they turned to stone such as beheld them. So Perseus stood over them as they slept, and while Athena guided his hand and he looked with averted gaze on a brazen shield, in which he beheld the image of the Gorgon,5 he beheaded her. When her head was cut off, there sprang from the Gorgon the winged horse Pegasus and Chrysaor, the father of Geryon; these she had by Poseidon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Apollod. 2.4.2](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D2%3Achapter%3D4%3Asection%3D2#note6)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It should be noted, however, that Hesiod doesn't mention the shield at all: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And again, Ceto bore to Phorcys the fair-cheeked Graiae, sisters grey from their birth: and both deathless gods and men who walk on earth call them Graiae, Pemphredo well-clad, and saffron-robed Enyo, and the Gorgons who dwell beyond glorious Ocean in the frontier land towards Night where are the clear-voiced Hesperides, Sthenno, and Euryale, and Medusa who suffered a woeful fate: she was mortal, but the two were undying and grew not old. With her lay the Dark-haired One in a soft meadow amid spring flowers. And when Perseus cut off her head, there sprang forth great Chrysaor and the horse Pegasus who is so called because he was born near the springs of Ocean; and that other, because he held a golden blade in his hands. Now Pegasus flew away and left the earth, the mother of flocks, and came to the deathless gods: and he dwells in the house of Zeus and brings to wise Zeus the thunder and lightning&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hes. Th. 280](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hes.%20Th.%20280&amp;lang=original)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4480" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="943" RevisionGUID="85e79a5d-aaf0-4e96-98d9-a1844658d290" CreationDate="2015-06-25T07:17:00.330" UserId="57" Comment="7" />
  <row Id="4482" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="971" RevisionGUID="61f97cdf-6d8e-429f-8b8e-9602b77995eb" CreationDate="2015-06-26T03:22:40.957" UserId="467" Comment="edited body" Text="It is necessary to make some distinctions here. While the word &quot;el&quot; is a generic word for a god, it is also the proper name for the head of the Canaanite pantheon, El. His origins are most directly from the Amorite god Amurru, but going further back he shared traits with Anue (An) and Ea (Enki). In Ugarit he was viewed as the creator god and, with his wife Asherah, fathered the other Canaanite gods and goddesses that we see, for example, in the Ugaritic myths including the Keret myth that you mention.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The answer to your question whether this is the same god as El in the Bible gets more complicated. The Canaanite El was originally the chief god in Palestine, where Israel later emerged. Yahweh, as the Bible itself attests several times (Deut. 33:2-3; Judg. 5:4-5; Hab. 3:3, 7; Ps. 68:8-9; Zech. 9:14), was originally from Seir (or Teman) in the Midian, which spans the east and west sides of the Araba valley in Sinai. Once Yahweh arrived in Palestine from migrants from the Midian (which echoes the stories in Exodus and Numbers), he had to compete for supremacy with the native Canaanite gods. Over time, El was merged into Yahweh, the survivor. Since this merger took place only over time, that's why we see so many references in the Hebrew Bible where Yahweh and El are intended as the same, or more accurately are retroactively explained as being the same. The issue is also confused because the different authors of the Hebrew Bible presenting different positions on this question. Thus, according to one version, the Hebrew god is announced as Yahweh (being the same as the god of Abraham which was El) to Moses at the burning bush (Exodus 3:15, by the Elohist author), which implies that Yahweh was not previously known to the Hebrews. But another author (known as the Yahwist, or J) calls God Yahweh even in the Eden story, and in Genesis 4:26 says that God was known as Yahweh almost from the beginning of humankind. This difference may reflect a situation where the traditional El remained strong in the northern kingdom of Israel, whereas the upstart god Yahweh was being promoted in Judah.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For further reference, this process of merger is discussed well in Mark Smith's book entitled The Early History of God.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a side note, El's wife Asherah was inherited by Yahweh as a result of their merger. That too became a big issue for proponents of official Temple religion as time went on, as they tried to eliminate her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4483" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="963" RevisionGUID="b84b4936-17bc-45be-87cd-c103e4891094" CreationDate="2015-06-26T03:27:07.657" UserId="467" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="This idea based on the Sumerian myth known as *Enki and Ninhursag* (see *ANET,* pp. 37-41) keeps popping up, especially in popular literature and on the internet. Kramer, however, did give credence to it, as mentioned by the blogger to whom you linked (see Kramer's *History Begins at Sumer,* pp. 143-44). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To make a long story short, the god Enki out of curiosity eats 8 plants in the paradise of Dilmun (cf. Eve eating the forbidden fruit), which the goddess Ninhursag considers a mortal sin, so she causes 8 of Enki's body parts (including his rib) to suffer, and he is on the brink of death. Enlil takes up Enki's cause and persuades Ninhursag to relent, and so various deities then come to heal each of Enki's body parts. The one who heals his rib is the goddess Ninti, whose name means both &quot;lady of the rib,&quot; and &quot;lady who makes live,&quot; which serves as a pun. Thus is established a possible parallel between Ninti and Eve, who was created from Adam's rib (in Hebrew *tesla*) and whose name in Hebrew (*hawwa*) connotes life (thus Eve was called &quot;the mother of all the living&quot; in Genesis 3:20). The pun doesn't work in Hebrew since the words for rib and life differ, but I'm not sure the biblical writer knew about it or, if he did, cared. (Having said that, it looks like the biblical writer made his own pun, because the Hebrew word for rib, *tsela,* can also connote &quot;stumbling,&quot; so although Eve was ostensibly created to be Adam's helper (Gen. 2:18), she proved to be his stumbling block.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are obvious parallels here, which have gotten many people excited, but proving a direct influence has proved elusive, and I know of no biblical scholars (whether faith-based or secular) who maintain that there is any such direct influence, because the usual scholarly criteria for proving intertextual influence are not strongly met here; but this remains a reasonable possibility. More generally, many prevalent ancient Near Eastern mythological motifs do show up in the Hebrew Bible, so it is clear to me that biblical Palestine shared a common cultural (including mythological) context with the broader ancient Near East.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4484" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="972" RevisionGUID="0ec342f0-2a44-429a-87c0-b717ab590782" CreationDate="2015-06-26T03:56:05.897" UserId="467" Text="In recent years proponents of the Christ-myth theory (e.g., Earl Doherty in his writings) have begun to argue that St. Paul in his epistles was setting forth the view that Christ was wholly divine and operated entirely in heaven, including his being sacrificed and resurrected there. (This interpretation serve to eliminate what otherwise would be evidence from Paul of Christ's being on earth and therefore existing, such as his having disciples and teaching people, having brothers, being crucified by the Romans, etc.) This idea falls way outside the frame of discussion of Paul's Christology among mainstream New Testament and Pauline scholars that I'm aware of, meaning that they never discuss the possibility. Since these Christ-myth theorists are presenting this new interpretation of Paul as being based on a myth, I'm wondering whether there is any precedent in other myths of a god being sacrificed and then resurrected entirely in heaven (as opposed to on earth or in the underworld, as in the usual dying-and-rising god myths). Is anyone aware of any such precedents?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4485" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="972" RevisionGUID="0ec342f0-2a44-429a-87c0-b717ab590782" CreationDate="2015-06-26T03:56:05.897" UserId="467" Text="Did any dying and resurrecting gods exist only in heaven, not earth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4486" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="972" RevisionGUID="0ec342f0-2a44-429a-87c0-b717ab590782" CreationDate="2015-06-26T03:56:05.897" UserId="467" Text="|christianity|sacrifice|resurrection|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4487" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="973" RevisionGUID="3ed7fe9d-42b2-4795-b878-853b30aa379c" CreationDate="2015-06-26T05:36:16.753" UserId="151" Text="This is a physicist's answer , commenting on the quotes in the checked answer:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;by which they flew; and they turned to stone such as beheld them.&quot; There is no indication of direct gaze in the eyes in this passage. It seems a passive evil. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My impression is that the use of the shield is based on the  analogy with seeing the image of the sun in water or the shield:  heat/power of the sun is drastically diminished. I.e. reflections are much less powerful than the original source , a simple conclusion to draw from everyday observations.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The power of the image of Medusa would be expected to equally diminish,  and could be survived. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4488" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="972" RevisionGUID="c4a2c46d-12c7-4176-811f-c2819de4f9de" CreationDate="2015-06-26T06:26:23.480" UserId="57" Comment="paragraphs" Text="In recent years proponents of the Christ-myth theory (e.g., Earl Doherty in his writings) have begun to argue that St. Paul in his epistles was setting forth the view that Christ was wholly divine and operated entirely in heaven, including his being sacrificed and resurrected there. This interpretation serve to eliminate what otherwise would be evidence from Paul of Christ's being on earth and therefore existing, such as his having disciples and teaching people, having brothers, being crucified by the Romans, etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This idea falls way outside the frame of discussion of Paul's Christology among mainstream New Testament and Pauline scholars that I'm aware of, meaning that they never discuss the possibility. Since these Christ-myth theorists are presenting this new interpretation of Paul as being based on a myth, I'm wondering whether there is any precedent in other myths of a god being sacrificed and then resurrected entirely in heaven (as opposed to on earth or in the underworld, as in the usual dying-and-rising god myths). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is anyone aware of any such precedents?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4489" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="966" RevisionGUID="8a0a6e60-3093-4477-8bec-fdf97692c904" CreationDate="2015-06-26T07:11:30.433" UserId="111" Comment="added the content of your comment to the answer" Text="I hope this doesn't break the rules, but I wrote a post on my blog about both the Northern and Southern lights awhile ago. It covers Inuit, Finnish, Scandinavian, Native American and Australian lore. You might find the references helpful, anyway.  &#xD;&#xA;http://earthandstarryheaven.com/2015/02/19/aurora-borealis/&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The condensed version:  &#xD;&#xA;The Canadian Inuit saw them as dead souls playing football in the sky, and in Maine the Passmaquoddy also saw a ball game in the aurora. Another explanation from the Inuit was that they were spirits who died violently, an idea shared by the West Coast Tlinglit Indians. The Lapps said they were fighting in the air, still fighting after death. A more cheerful view came from the Scots and Norwegians, who saw them as dancers. Both the Maori and Aborigines saw them as fires in the sky. (This is a broad, thematic summary.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4490" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="943" RevisionGUID="d557604e-92bb-4cc0-b94e-417eca9bf5fd" CreationDate="2015-06-26T09:55:53.997" UserId="57" Comment="7" />
  <row Id="4491" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="972" RevisionGUID="18bc8fed-23ec-472f-9cda-ee35e29585b3" CreationDate="2015-06-26T14:21:23.717" UserId="467" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="In recent years proponents of the Christ-myth theory (e.g., Earl Doherty in his writings) have begun to argue that St. Paul in his epistles was setting forth the view that Christ was wholly divine and operated entirely in heaven, including his being sacrificed and resurrected there. This interpretation serves to eliminate what otherwise would be evidence from Paul of Christ's being on earth and therefore existing, such as his having disciples and teaching people, having brothers, being crucified by the Romans, etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This idea falls way outside the frame of discussion of Paul's Christology among mainstream New Testament and Pauline scholars that I'm aware of, meaning that they never discuss the possibility. Since these Christ-myth theorists are presenting this new interpretation of Paul as being based on a myth, I'm wondering whether there is any precedent in other myths of a god being sacrificed and then resurrected entirely in heaven (as opposed to on earth or in the underworld, as in the usual dying-and-rising god myths). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is anyone aware of any such precedents?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4492" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="972" RevisionGUID="20e75d63-c242-41b5-9b40-e320c0a5079f" CreationDate="2015-06-26T14:56:01.467" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags; edited title" Text="Any examples of dying and resurrecting gods that exist only in heaven, not earth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4493" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="972" RevisionGUID="20e75d63-c242-41b5-9b40-e320c0a5079f" CreationDate="2015-06-26T14:56:01.467" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags; edited title" Text="|myth-identification|christianity|sacrifice|resurrection|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4494" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="974" RevisionGUID="f07be17a-62f2-41c4-8ad0-98a7bc36fd4a" CreationDate="2015-06-26T15:43:00.413" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="I've delayed answering this question because I've been looking for an explanation of the symbolism behind the complicated manner of Lleu's death. I still haven't a satisfactory explanation from a reputable source, although I'm sure one exists, so this answer is incomplete. However, I think I've answered most of the original question, and I've taken a stab at the symbolism question. If anyone has any additional research, please let me know.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Why Lleu is so difficult to kill?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This story is a *heavily modified* version of the &quot;Tristan and Iseult&quot; archetype, in that there exists a king or ruler or giant who will die when their daughter is married. The ruler attempts to prevent his daughter from being married, but of course she eventually circumvents the ruler and get's married anyway, at which point the ruler dies. This story relates to death but also to rebirth; although the ruler dies, because the daughter marries the ruler's legacy continues, and the husband or son of the daughter replaces the ruler in the mortal world. (A slightly different version also exists: a prophesy says the ruler will die if he has a son, the ruler attempts to not have a son, he has a son anyway, and the son kills his father and takes his father's place.) Of the top of my head, [Perseus][1], [Tristian and Iseult][2], and [Culhwch and Olwen][3] are all examples of this type of story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To quote from [Roger Loomis' review of Math Vab Mathonwy, An Inquiry into the Origins and Development of the Fourth Branch of the Mabingogi][4] (I didn't want to read the entire book):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The chief discovery is the ultimate dependence of Math upon the Irish myth of Balor and Lug for its main outline (pp.  65-112).  Significant is the fact that this myth, surviving most clearly in folktales taken down in the nineteenth century, must have supplied the framework for a story composed as early as the twelfth century.  It is a variant of the widespread formula of the King and His Prophesied Death (pp.  8, 366),2 of which the Perseus and Oedipus stories furnish familiar examples.  The plot of the famous Irish story may be reconstructed as follows.  Balor, learning of a prophecy that he would be slain by his daughter's son, to be named Lug Lamfada, with a particular spear, on Lug's wedding night, sought to prevent this con- summation.  First he imprisoned his daughter, but a certain Cian gained access to her, and she bore a son.  Balor then tried to have his grandson drowned, but in vain.  When he learned of his failure, he put successively three geasa on the boy: never to receive a name except from himself, never to bear arms, and never to wed earthly wife (pp.  102-106).  But Lug circumvented all these barriers and finally fulfilled his destiny by slaying Balor in the manner prescribed.  Now the Welsh tale is remarkable in that it preserves practically every essential feature of this outline in the right order, but every feature has been recast several times, and all the original cohesion and rationale has been lost.  Math is at pains to preserve the virginity of a damsel, but no reason is offered and the damsel is not his daughter.  The damsel is ravished by stratagem, but nothing is said of her son.  Instead, the woman who takes her place gives birth to a son, Dylan, and he promptly goes to the sea and, instead of drowning, swims like a fish.  But it is not he who becomes the hero of the story but one who develops from the caul or placenta which Dylan's mother lets fall at the time of his birth.  This caul develops into a second child, and upon him are sworn successively the three geasa that were sworn upon Lug: but it is his mother who swears them, and she obviously has no motive.  The way in which she is induced to name him Lleu Llaw Gyffes is obviously reminiscent of the way in which Balor was induced to name his grandson Lug Lamfada.  **Finally, it is not Lleu's grandfather who is slain by a special spear, but Lleu's rival, Gronwy**.  Except that the order remains intact, the elements could hardly have been juggled more drastically.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A common feature in these types of stories is that the father-figure is very difficult to kill. Here's an example from Culhwch and Olwen, a story from the same tradition as Math. (The story of Balor and Lug, upon which Math is based upon, also includes a father figure who is hard to kill).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And the third day they returned to the palace. And Yspaddaden Penkawr said to them, &quot;Shoot not at me again unless you desire death. Where are my attendants? Lift up the forks of my eyebrows which have fallen over my eyeballs, that I may see the fashion of my son-in-law.&quot; Then they arose, and, as they did so, Yspaddaden Penkawr took the third poisoned dart and cast it at them. And Kilhwch caught it and threw it vigorously, and wounded him through the eyeball, so that the dart came out at the back of his head. &quot;A cursed ungentle son-in-law, truly! As long as I remain alive, my eyesight will be the worse. Whenever I go against the wind, my eyes will water; and peradventure my head will burn, and I shall have a giddiness every new moon. Cursed be the fire in which it was forged. Like the bite of a mad dog is the stroke of this poisoned iron.&quot; And they went to meat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since Lleu takes the role of the father figure in this rearranged story, it also makes sense that he is hard to kill.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# An attempted explanation of the symbolism behind Lleu's position:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's important to know that Lleu seems to be associated with the sun. According to [Queen of the Night: Rediscovering the Celtic Moon Goddess][5]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the Mabinogi, Lleu Llaw Gyffes (Bright One of the Skillful Hand) is transformed into an eagle, residing for a period of time in the top of an oak tree. The eagle and the oak are symbols of a solar or celestial deity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found an article that [claims that the position that Lleu can be killed corresponds to something related to astronomy] (the hut to the sky, the tub/well to the milky way, the goat represents Capella, and Lleu to the constellation Perseus [Perseus seems to have a foot in the milkyway]). The article seems legit, and is definitely worth considering, but I worry that it doesn't seem to be verified by any academics. Here's a picture of the constellation Perseus (from [AstroPixels.com][7]):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![The constellation Perseus](http://astropixels.com/constellations/charts/images/Per_map.jpg)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another explanation (found in an article about Shakespeare!) ties the age of the spear to the creation of a new year (and perhaps to rebirth):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Blodeuwedd and her lover planned to slay her husband, the Welsh hero Lleu Llaw Gyffes; but he could only be killed by a spear forged &quot;in a year of Sundays&quot;; and so Lleu was struck down exactly one year after the plan was conceived. The death of the year equated the death of the husband; either event signals or is signaled by the Queen's or Lady's attachment to another man.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Aguirre, Manuel. [Life, Crown, and Queen: Gertrude and the Theme of Sovereignty][8].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And as a bonus, here's an article that elaborates on the connection between names, transformations, and the difference between Lleu's and Blodeuwedd's metamorphoses:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The metamorphoses of Lleu and Blodeu(w)edd confirm the theory that, in the Fourth Branch, names function to secure both body and identity. The scene in which Lleu spontaneously transforms into an eagle and the earlier scene in which he is named are linked in such a way that his name emerges as a crucial guarantee of human embodiment; by contrast, Blodeu(w)edd is renamed so that her metamorphosis can never be undone.  Having persuaded her husband, Lleu, to reveal how he may be killed, Blodeu(w)edd has Gronw ambush Lleu while he is demonstrating to his wife exactly the point at which he is at his most vulnerable. Gronw’s ambush prompts Lleu’s transformation: “Then Gronw rose up from the hill that is called Brynn Cyfergyr, and he got up on the end of one knee, and cast the poison-spear, and hit [Lleu] in the side, so that the spear shaft leapt from him and the head stayed in him. And then he went flying up in the shape of an eagle, and gave a terrible cry” (Williams 1951, 88). Although the text gives more details about the spear thrust than the metamorphosis, Lleu’s transformation clearly results from the entry of the spearhead into his body. This passage mirrors the episode in which the young Lleu is named. In this scene, disguised, Gwydion brings the boy to visit Aranrhod; when Aranrhod sees the boy hit a wren with surprising precision and comments on his dexterity, saying, “it is with a skilful hand Lleu can be killed only by a single blow from a spear made only during Sunday mass over the course of one year, and he must be neither inside nor outside, neither on horseback nor on foot; the inventive solution to this riddle involves Lleu’s standing with one foot on the edge of a roofed outdoor bathtub, the other on the back of a goat. The actions in both scenes are also described by identical verbs, bwrw (to throw, cast) and medru (to strike). Sheehan that the fair one hit it [ Ys llaw gyffes y medrwys y lleu ef ]” (Williams 1951, 80), Gwydion manipulates her comment to provide a name for his nephew, Lleu Llaw Gyffes (Fair-haired One of the Skilful Hand). Lleu’s name is also the key to his metamorphosis’s reversal. When Gwydion finds the eagle perched in a treetop, he sings three englynion , each time naming Lleu, until the eagle descends from the tree and alights on Gwydion’s knee; Gwydion is then able to strike him with the hutlath “so that he was in his own shape [ rith ]” (Williams 1951, 90). Lleu’s metamorphosis is consistent with those examined above, in that the narrator does not refer to Lleu by name until he is again in his own, human body. Lleu cannot regain his body until he regains his name: it is Gwydion’s ritualized poetic naming of his nephew together with a tap of the hutlath that restores Lleu to human form. Gronw’s skillful striking of Lleu causes Lleu to lose both name and form by reversing the subject positions (active/passive, striker/struck) of the scenario whereby he gained his name&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Sheehan, Sarah, [Matrilineal Subjects: Ambiguity, Bodies, and Metamorphosis in the Fourth Branch of the Mabinogi][9])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseus&#xD;&#xA;[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan_and_Iseult&#xD;&#xA;[3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culhwch_and_Olwen&#xD;&#xA;[4]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/2847153&#xD;&#xA;[5]: https://books.google.com/books?id=1l1yXq4xGHsC&amp;pg=PA153&amp;lpg=PA153&amp;dq=lleu+llaw+gyffes+eagle+symbolism&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=JFo9N9d_Hh&amp;sig=ejmr1zvfmO7oQcar6g4KWDbQjcQ&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=_xmKVcmTGsn2ggSS9IGADA&amp;ved=0CDIQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&amp;q=lleu%20llaw%20gyffes%20eagle%20symbolism&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;[6]: http://mabinogionastronomy.blogspot.com/2015/04/thedeath-of-lleu-llaw-gyffes-here-is.html&#xD;&#xA;[7]: http://astropixels.com/&#xD;&#xA;[8]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/518100&#xD;&#xA;[9]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/591089" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4495" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="972" RevisionGUID="ecb8cad3-eef2-40dc-a2a6-6ccfd7cbf40c" CreationDate="2015-06-26T15:46:10.137" UserId="467" Comment="added 9 characters in body" Text="In recent years proponents of the Christ-myth theory (e.g., Earl Doherty in his writings) have begun to argue that St. Paul in his epistles was setting forth the view that Christ was wholly divine and operated entirely in heaven, including his being sacrificed and resurrected there. This interpretation serves to eliminate what otherwise would be evidence from Paul of Christ's being on earth and therefore existing, such as his having disciples and teaching people, having brothers, being crucified by the Romans, etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This idea falls way outside the framework of the discussion of Paul's Christology among mainstream New Testament and Pauline scholars that I'm aware of, meaning that they never discuss this possibility. Since these Christ-myth theorists are presenting this new interpretation of Paul as being based on a myth, I'm wondering whether there is any precedent in other myths of a god being sacrificed and then resurrected entirely in heaven (as opposed to on earth or in the underworld, as in the usual dying-and-rising god myths). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is anyone aware of any such precedents?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4504" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="972" RevisionGUID="a985b2d0-4a37-43b5-996f-4893cf060d45" CreationDate="2015-06-27T02:13:58.107" UserId="467" Comment="deleted 4 characters in body" Text="In recent years proponents of the Christ-myth theory (e.g., Earl Doherty in his writings) have begun to argue that St. Paul in his epistles was setting forth the view that Christ was wholly divine and operated entirely in heaven, including his being sacrificed and resurrected there. This interpretation serves to eliminate what otherwise would be evidence from Paul of Christ's being on earth and therefore existing, such as his having disciples and teaching people, having brothers, being crucified by the Romans, etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This idea falls way outside the range of the discussion of Paul's Christology among mainstream New Testament and Pauline scholars that I'm aware of, meaning that they never discuss this possibility. Since these Christ-myth theorists are presenting this new interpretation of Paul as being based on a myth, I'm wondering whether there is any precedent in other myths of a god being sacrificed and then resurrected entirely in heaven (as opposed to on earth or in the underworld, as in the usual dying-and-rising god myths). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is anyone aware of any such precedents?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4505" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="976" RevisionGUID="df2f8bff-49f4-4883-838f-fa2086ddd8a6" CreationDate="2015-06-27T21:19:48.357" UserId="183" Text="#Sumeria, sometime in the 4th or 3rd millennium B.C.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My first instinct was to check out [the Wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_dragon#Origin) again. One interesting quote was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The presence of dragons within Chinese culture dates back several thousands of years with the discovery of a dragon statue dating back to the fifth millennium BC from the Yangshao culture in Henan in 1987, and jade badges of rank in coiled form have been excavated from the Hongshan culture circa 4700-2900 BC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That would seem like a likely candidate. Unfortunately, the in-text citations do not work, I can find no other mention of either of these that does not quote Wikipedia verbatim, and this probably doesn't count as mythology, either. Neither are associated with &quot;myths&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I stumbled across [this](http://www.theallineed.com/entertainment/08033180.htm) blog post/whatever-it-is. Either way, it was helpful insofar as it led me somewhere. Citing *Sumerian Mythology*, 1944, 1961, by; Samuel Noah Kramer, it states&#xD;&#xA;&gt; KUR&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sumeria 3rd Millennium B.C.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Since the dragon-slaying theme was an important motif in the Sumerian mythology of the third millennium B. C., it is not unreasonable to assume that many a thread in the texture of the Greek and early Christian dragon tales winds back to Sumerian sources.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; . . .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; We find mention of Kur in three myths from the 4th - 3rd Millennium B.C., (more than a millennium before Tiamat!), In the introductory prologue to the epic tale &quot;Gilgamesh, Enkidu, and the Nether World,&quot;( written on eight tablets - seven excavated in Nippur and one in Ur), Where Enki, the water-god, fights Kur after he learns that The goddess Ereshkigal was carried off violently into the nether world, by Kur. Enki fought Kur from a boat, and Kur fought back savagely with stones of all sizes, and attacked Enki's boat with the primeval waters which it controlled. Unfortunately for us, the author of this tale is so anxious to proceed with the Gilgamesh tale that he doesn't finish the dragon part, and leaves us hanging. It is certain that Enki wins though because he is in the rest of the poem, Kur is not.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; . . .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The second version of the slaying-of-the-dragon myth can be found in &quot;The Feats and Exploits of Ninurta.&quot; (49 tablets) A significant version, due to the fact that it is evident that it was utilized by the Semitic redactors in the creation of the Babylonian Creation Myth featuring Tiamat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In this version, Ninurta, the warrior-god, is the hero of the story. His personified weapon, Sharur, kisses up to him in a drawn out speech extolling the heroic qualities and deeds of Ninurta to convince him to go after Kur, and attach and destroy him. What Sharur has against Kur is not written in the text that is available. Ninurta leaves to do as asked, but finds himself lacking and &quot;flees like a bird&quot;. Sharur though, won't let it go and speaks, reassuring and encouraging Ninurta with his words. &quot;Ninurta now attacks Kur fiercely with all the weapons at his command, and Kur is completely destroyed.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; . . .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The third version of the slaying-of-the-dragon myth can be found in &quot;Inanna and Ebih.&quot; A one hundred and ninety line poem. (12 tablets)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The dragon-slayer in this version of the story is a goddess, Inanna, curiously known as both the goddess of love and also as the goddess of battle and strife, (She must have been married), and is also referred to in many Sumerian hymns as &quot;The Destroyer of Kur.&quot; Kur, is also referred to as The 'mountain,' in the Poem. Did I mention that Kur was also the first fire breathing dragon?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interesting. I decided to learn more.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First, the relevant part of *Sumerian Mythology* appears to be available [here](http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/sum/sum08.htm). No part of it quotes any relevant sections of the myths that imply or outright state that Kur is a dragon. So I decided to find them for myself. (By the way, related notes on many Sumerian myths, including these, can be found [here](http://www.ianlawton.com/mes4.htm)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Gilgamesh, Enkidu, and the Nether World**](http://templeofsumer.org/myth14.html)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The relevant passage appears to be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1 It began in the early days of the world, after the earth and the heavens had been separated. It was a turbulent time. Ereshkigal had been taken by the dragon Kur and Enki was sailing after to put things into the order that they belonged in.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2 The waters that Enki sailed were being pummeled by rocks. The smallest of these hit the side of Enki's boat like they were like hammers. The largest of these hit with the impact of a boulder thrown from a catapult.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is all that remains of the explicit tale of the fight of Kur against Enki.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**The Exploits of Ninurta**](http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr162.htm)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Asag leapt up at the head of the battle. For a club it uprooted the sky, took it in its hand; like a snake it slid its head along the ground. It was a mad dog attacking to kill the helpless, dripping with sweat on its flanks. Like a wall collapsing, the Asag fell on Ninurta the son of Enlil. Like an accursed storm, it howled in a raucous voice; like a gigantic snake, it roared at the Land. It dried up the waters of the Mountains, dragged away the tamarisks, tore the flesh of the Earth and covered her with painful wounds. It set fire to the reed-beds, bathed the sky in blood, turned it inside out; it dispersed the people there. At that moment, on that day, the fields became black potash, across the whole extent of the horizon, reddish like purple dye -- truly it was so!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Asag](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asag) is often considered to be different from [Kur](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kur). However, [this](http://www.blackdrago.com/fame/kur.htm) (of dubious reputation) states&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Are Asag and Kur synonymous, both referencing a dragon? Or are they different entities attributed as the dark force overcome by Ninurta? Owing to the age of Sumerian literature, and its predecessors adapting the myths, this remains uncertain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Inana and Eibh**](http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr132.htm)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; An, the king of the deities, answered her: &quot;My little one demands the destruction of this mountain -- what is she taking on? Inana demands the destruction of this mountain -- what is she taking on? She demands the destruction of this mountain -- what is she taking on?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;It has poured fearsome terror on the abodes of the gods. It has spread fear among the holy dwellings of the Anuna deities. It has poured its terror and ferocity over this land. It has poured the mountain range's radiance and fear over all the lands. Its arrogance extends grandly to the centre of heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; . . .&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; My lady confronted the mountain range. She advanced step by step. She sharpened both edges of her dagger. She grabbed Ebih's neck as if ripping up esparto grass. She pressed the dagger's teeth into its interior. She roared like thunder.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The rocks forming the body of Ebih clattered down its flanks. From its sides and crevices great serpents spat venom. She damned its forests and cursed its trees. She killed its oak trees with drought. She poured fire on its flanks and made its smoke dense. The goddess established authority over the mountain. Holy Inana did as she wished.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Huh. That's disappointing. The literal interpretation states that Inana's foe is a mountain, not a dragon. Indeed, as [that earlier dubious source](http://www.blackdrago.com/fame/kur.htm) states,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Another disambiguation should be made between Kur the dragon and the myth of Inanna and Ebih. Inanna was the Sumerian goddess of love, battle, and strife and among her many epithets was the 'destroyer of Kur.' In this myth, Kur is also called 'mountain Ebih,' which is a district northeast of Sumer. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Therefore, Inanna overcame Kur, but in this myth, Kur is an hostile land, not a dragon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is the myth being metaphorical when it describes Inana's foe as a mountain?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This myth is doubtful, as are, come to think of it, the other two.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In my (non-expert) opinion, *Gilgamesh, Enkidu, and the Nether World* is not strong evidence for a dragon. The source I gave is the only translation I could find that explicitly calls Kur a dragon. Most others do not refer to that. *Inana and Eibh* also seems to be a lost cause, because, quite literally, Inana is fighting a mountain, not a dragon. I doubt that the myth is being figurative. Mythology tends to be literal, realistic or not.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*The Exploits of Ninurta* seems to be the best evidence available. It says&#xD;&#xA;&gt; like a snake it slid its head along the ground.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; . . .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; like a gigantic snake, it roared at the Land.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; . . .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It set fire to the reed-beds&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Circumstantial? Perhaps. But it seems like a dragon-like creature. I'm calling this one the winner.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now for the date. Embarrassingly enough, I haven't found any date for this other than the one Kramer gave, somewhere in the 4th or 3rd millennium B.C." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4507" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="977" RevisionGUID="261f0493-2ded-4282-8819-17d8ef27b33f" CreationDate="2015-06-27T23:52:11.177" UserId="235" Text="I'm reading &quot;Apollodorus : The Library of Greek Mythology&quot; and I've noticed that it simply starts with &quot;Ouranos was the first ruler of the universe.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;There is no mention of dates that would allow for a chronological representation of when they believe everything started in this book.&#xA;&#xA;Did the Greek mythology discuss the chronological progress of reality? Using Christianity as an example, you can follow lineage and other chronologically labelled dates / times and generate an idea for the Christian mythological 'start date' for creation.&#xA;&#xA;Basically, does this exist in Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4508" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="977" RevisionGUID="261f0493-2ded-4282-8819-17d8ef27b33f" CreationDate="2015-06-27T23:52:11.177" UserId="235" Text="Does the Greek mythology list a calendar date for creation?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4509" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="977" RevisionGUID="261f0493-2ded-4282-8819-17d8ef27b33f" CreationDate="2015-06-27T23:52:11.177" UserId="235" Text="|greek|origins|mythohistory|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4510" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="978" RevisionGUID="c2e5d6d9-e485-4551-9548-392c96f67ec8" CreationDate="2015-06-28T01:53:43.290" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="I have three myths that *somewhat* fulfil your requirements:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Aztec mythology, the sun and the moon (and other celestial objects, like Venus) were created by the self-sacrifice of deities, who were then resurrected as celestial deities. I don't think the stories ever specified whether the sacrifice took place in heaven (I personally doubt that detail would have been relevant to the people telling the story), but the Aztecs had highly developed concepts of heaven and hell. If you're interested in learning more, the book [*Aztec Thought and Culture: A Study of the Ancient Nahuatl Mind*][1] features an extensive analysis of that myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [tag:popol-vuh] includes a story of how two twins die and are resurrected in the land of the dead (i.e. hell, not heaven). I know that you asked for stories concerning heaven, but I'm including this example to show that many myths feature mortals dying and coming back to life in otherworldly settings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This third example is really interesting: it's an Inca myth recorded after the conquest. It's called &quot;The boy who rose to the sky&quot;, and it's about a boy who travels to the sky (which might be analogous to heaven?) in search of a girl.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In that sky-world, there is a pool that makes old people young, which could be compared to rebirth:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When they arrived in the sky, they were dirty and bearded. They had grown old. But when they came out of the water they were handsome and young.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's also clear that this place is inhospitable to mortals:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For a year the young man lives with his wife in this manner. But when the year had passed, she began to neglect him and no longer brought him his food. One day she went out, saying, &quot;The time has come when you must leave. After that she did not come back to the house. She had abandoned him at last.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then the boy's eyes filled with tears and he returned to the edge of the sky lake. When he got there, he saw the condor rising up in the distance. As he ran to meet him, the condor flew to his side, and he saw that the sacred condor had grown old. And the condor could see that the boy, too, had grown old and wrinkled.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found this story in John Bierhorst's book [*Black Rainbow: Legends of the Incas and Myths of Ancient Peru*][2] (also the source of the above quotations). I wish I could tell you more about the myth, but I haven't done any research into South American mythology (yet).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I hope this is helpful, and I wish you the best of luck with your research. I've been less rigorous with my sources in this answer because this is a myth identification question, and I'm just trying to point you in a few potentially useful directions (as opposed to explaining something in detail). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.amazon.com/Aztec-Thought-Culture-Civilization-American/dp/0806122951&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.amazon.com/Black-Rainbow-Legends-Incas-Ancient/dp/0374308292" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4511" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="254" RevisionGUID="f07813b1-3b89-4268-a31a-55c31d35d170" CreationDate="2015-06-28T02:07:49.007" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags; edited title" Text="What is the earliest known dragon myth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4512" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="254" RevisionGUID="f07813b1-3b89-4268-a31a-55c31d35d170" CreationDate="2015-06-28T02:07:49.007" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags; edited title" Text="|mythical-creatures|myth-identification|comparative|dragons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4513" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="972" RevisionGUID="f7556d69-5d81-43a4-8847-ca9019aa1e0a" CreationDate="2015-06-28T02:53:42.840" UserId="467" Comment="added 298 characters in body" Text="In recent years proponents of the Christ-myth theory (e.g., Earl Doherty in his writings) have begun to argue that St. Paul in his epistles was setting forth the view that Christ was wholly divine and operated entirely in heaven, including his being sacrificed and resurrected there. This interpretation serves to eliminate what otherwise would be evidence from Paul of Christ's being on earth and therefore existing, such as his having disciples and teaching people, having brothers, being crucified by the Romans, etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This idea falls way outside the range of the discussion of Paul's Christology among mainstream New Testament and Pauline scholars that I'm aware of, meaning that they never discuss this possibility. Since these Christ-myth theorists are presenting this new interpretation of Paul as being based on a myth, I'm wondering whether there is any precedent in other myths of a god being sacrificed and then resurrected entirely in heaven (as opposed to on earth or in the underworld, as in the usual dying-and-rising god myths). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is anyone aware of any such precedents? By this I mean myths that could have influenced such alleged appearance of such a Christ myth, which probably means myths from the ancient Near East, Egypt, or the Mediterranean, rather than from further away. I can't think of any. If there are none, an answer to that effect would be appreciated." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4514" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="979" RevisionGUID="7a607742-e35c-4ed4-8473-b32f7f38337d" CreationDate="2015-06-28T03:26:33.090" UserId="398" Text="I'm afraid they do not. It should be noted that even the Hebrew scriptures, probably the only ones I can think of that has a date of creation so closely tied to generations of men, is not really precise, for a generation is not a precise number.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, some ancient Greeks did try to come up with dates for certain mythological events, particularly the Trojan War. Herodotus said that it was 800 years before him (= ca. 1250 BCE), and connects it chronologically to Heracles, Dionysus, and Egyptian mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Among the Greeks, Heracles, Dionysus, and Pan are held to be the youngest of the gods. But in Egypt, Pan is the most ancient of these and is one of the eight gods who are said to be the earliest of all; Heracles belongs to the second dynasty (that of the so-called twelve gods); and Dionysus to the third, which came after the twelve.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Herodotus, _Histories_ 2.145.1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126%3Abook%3D2%3Achapter%3D145%3Asection%3D1)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These are Egyptian gods here, rather than Greek ones. Their equivalents are as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Dionysus = Osiris&#xD;&#xA;* Heracles = Khonsu (?)&#xD;&#xA;* Pan = Min&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; How many years there were between Heracles and the reign of Amasis, I have already shown; Pan is said to be earlier still; the years between Dionysus and Amasis are the fewest, and they are reckoned by the Egyptians at fifteen thousand.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Hdt., _Histories_ 2.145.2](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126%3Abook%3D2%3Achapter%3D145%3Asection%3D2)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here he is referring to his earlier chronology, all Egyptian still, which I'll discuss after this passage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now the Dionysus who was called the son of Semele, daughter of Cadmus, was about sixteen hundred years before my time, and Heracles son of Alcmene about nine hundred years; and Pan the son of Penelope (for according to the Greeks Penelope and Hermes were the parents of Pan) was about eight hundred years before me, and thus of a later date than the Trojan war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Hdt., _Histories_ 2.145.4](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126%3Abook%3D2%3Achapter%3D145%3Asection%3D4)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We know he has shifted back to Greek chronology by not only reversing the chronology of the Egyptians (and reversal is a very Herodotean thing to do; see Hartog's book at the botton), but listing the Greek parentage. Since Herodotus' life was roughly 480s to after 420, I'll round to roughly 450 for his &quot;time&quot;. That gives us 2050 BCE for the god Dionysus (though this would conflict with Euripides!), 1350 for the life of the hero Heracles, and 1250 for the god Pan, which puts the Trojan war roughly around 1300-1275 or so. This is pretty consistent, as Heracles sacked Troy before Agamemnon, and after doing so put child Priam on the throne. Priam, of course, was an old man during the Trojan War (Apollod. 2.6.4, 3.12.3).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, the passage Herodotus mentioned above I reproduce below (and can be found at [2.43](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hdt.+2.43&amp;fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126)):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Concerning Heracles, I heard it said that he was one of the twelve gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Side note: The Egyptians had different pantheons depending on what city you were in. There were either a set of eight (the Ogdoad of Hermopolis: Nu and Naunet, Amun and Amaunet, Kuk and Kauket, Huh and Hauhet), set of nine (the Ennead of Heliopolis: Atum, his children Shu and Tefnut, their children Geb and Nut and their children Osiris, Isis, Set, and Nephthys), nine plus one (centered in Memphis, based on the Ennead but with Ptah as the head), or a set of twelve, of which I do not think we know very well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But nowhere in Egypt could I hear anything about the other Heracles, whom the Greeks know.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another side note, this Heracles is actually the Phoenician god Melqart. See Bonnet below if you know French and have access to a scholarly library, or Google Melqart and you can probably find some good information. Or ask another question here!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But Heracles is a very ancient god in Egypt; as the Egyptians themselves say, the change of the eight gods to the twelve, one of whom they acknowledge Heracles to be, was made seventeen thousand years before the reign of Amasis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Amasis here is Ahmose II, who was Pharaoh 570–526 BCE, placing Heracles in Egypt to ca. 2250 (rounding to a nice middle number), which would make it in the middle of the 6th Dynasty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herodotus, of course, was not the only historian to work out dates for various mythical events, and [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_War#Dates_of_the_Trojan_War) has a nice list of various Late Classical/Hellenistic scholars' dates for determining when the Trojan War happened:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ephorus gives 1135 BC, Sosibius 1172 BC, Eratosthenes 1184 BC/1183 BC, Timaeus 1193 BC, the Parian marble 1209 BC/1208 BC, Dicaearchus 1212 BC, Herodotus around 1250 BC, Eretes 1291 BC, while Douris 1334 BC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is one further clue about the &quot;origin&quot; of the Greek world, but it is even more imprecise:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Hecataeus the historian was once at Thebes , where he made a genealogy for himself that had him descended from a god in the sixteenth generation. But the priests of Zeus did with him as they also did with me (who had not traced my own lineage). They brought me into the great inner court of the temple and showed me wooden figures there which they counted to the total they had already given, for every high priest sets up a statue of himself there during his lifetime; pointing to these and counting, the priests showed me that each succeeded his father; they went through the whole line of figures, back to the earliest from that of the man who had most recently died. Thus, when Hecataeus had traced his descent and claimed that his sixteenth forefather was a god, the priests too traced a line of descent according to the method of their counting; for they would not be persuaded by him that a man could be descended from a god; they traced descent through the whole line of three hundred and forty-five figures, not connecting it with any ancestral god or hero, but declaring each figure to be a “Piromis” the son of a “Piromis”; in Greek, one who is in all respects a good man.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Herodotus, _Histories_ 2.143](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hdt.+2.143&amp;fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hecataeus was Herodotus' real predecessor. He wrote genealogies of the world, including Greek myths, and it's a shame we do not have it anymore, otherwise we might know a bit better when he thought the world began.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anyway, this passage clues is in on two things. One, Hecataeus places humankind sixteen generations back. This is difficult to reckon, because we do not know how many years he was counting as a generation, but by a normal 40 years, it leads us to 1140 (from 500, when Hecataeus was already a grown man, so perhaps even earlier). This is unlikely to be exactly the case, as he must have placed the Trojan War around this time, as Herodotus did. An alternative would be that he merely placed his line back that far, assuming that the gods were still reproducing with mortals, and Herodotus (and this unnamed Egyptian) must just be mistaken in his assumption that that's when the gods were mating *in the beginning*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The other thing it lets us know is that the Greeks could imagine that humans were around 10800–14250 BCE (i.e. 10,350 to 13,800 years before *their* time).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That must have been pretty outrageous to the poets!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Bonnet, C. 1988. _Melqart. Cultes et mythes de l'Héraclès tyrien en Méditerranée_. Leuven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hartog, F. 1980. _Le miroir d'Hérodote. Essai sur la représentation de l'autre_. Paris.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-- Translated in 1988 as _The Mirror or Herodotus: Representations of the Other in the Writing of History_ by Janet Lloyd. Berkeley/Los Angeles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How, W. W. &amp; J. Wells. 1928. _A Commentary on Herodotus_. 2nd ed. Oxford.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Linforth, I. M. 1926. &quot;Greek Gods and Foreign Gods in Herodotus.&quot; _University of California Publications in Classical Philology_ 9.1: 1–25.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Harrison, T. 2000. _Divinity and History: The Religion of Herodotus_. Oxford." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4516" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="977" RevisionGUID="7dee8792-ea65-4fef-8d50-6cb563715c6f" CreationDate="2015-06-28T22:49:25.870" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 6 characters in body; edited title" Text="I'm reading &quot;Apollodorus : The Library of Greek Mythology&quot; and I've noticed that it simply starts with &quot;Ouranos was the first ruler of the universe.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no mention of dates that would allow for a chronological representation of when they believe everything started in this book.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did the Greek mythology discuss the chronological progress of reality? Using Christianity as an example, you can follow lineage and other chronologically labelled dates / times and generate an idea for the Christian mythological 'start date' for creation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Basically, does this exist in Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4517" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="977" RevisionGUID="7dee8792-ea65-4fef-8d50-6cb563715c6f" CreationDate="2015-06-28T22:49:25.870" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 6 characters in body; edited title" Text="Does Greek mythology list a calendar date for creation?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4519" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="376" RevisionGUID="174169da-8412-4103-bca1-c0a3e0318970" CreationDate="2015-06-29T05:49:58.203" UserId="398" Comment="added 23 characters in body" Text="For questions relating to the mythology of Sumer, the land of the Sumerians around the Euphrates and Tigris rivers, which was later called Mesopotamia by the Ancient Greeks. See also the [tag:mesopotamia] tag." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4520" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="376" RevisionGUID="174169da-8412-4103-bca1-c0a3e0318970" CreationDate="2015-06-29T05:49:58.203" Comment="Proposed by 398 approved by 62, 79 edit id of 215" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4521" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="980" RevisionGUID="16c8ee93-948d-4a99-9ceb-c1fe5049dde1" CreationDate="2015-06-29T07:20:14.707" UserId="484" Text="In my internet adventures I've stumbled upon the idea that the story of Jesus was heavily inspired by the ancient Egyptian god Horus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've decided to do some fact checking, but there seems to be a massive amount of stuff written by various religious activists that appear in the top search results for the Horus keyword. Wikipedia also doesn't seem a great resource for such a controversial thing either. It seems like everyone's offended by this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, my questions are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Is there any artifact(rune) showing Horus's crucifixion and is there a consensus between archaeologists that this is correct? It would be cool to see a photo of it.&#xD;&#xA;2. Was he resurrected after that(a photo of an artefact would also be great)?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know the history of Egypt gods spanned thousands of years, and that each god had their origin stories and statuses changing. But if this is present in at least one version of it, that's good enough for me." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4522" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="980" RevisionGUID="16c8ee93-948d-4a99-9ceb-c1fe5049dde1" CreationDate="2015-06-29T07:20:14.707" UserId="484" Text="Are there any depictions of Horus being crucified and resurrected" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4523" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="980" RevisionGUID="16c8ee93-948d-4a99-9ceb-c1fe5049dde1" CreationDate="2015-06-29T07:20:14.707" UserId="484" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4524" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="981" RevisionGUID="69ba7366-e47c-495d-a0b6-d7c8effaae2d" CreationDate="2015-06-29T08:13:57.350" UserId="111" Text="When Gylfi tries to trick the gods into entering Asgard under a false identity, he adopts the name Gangleri.  &#xD;&#xA;Later, during his discussion with Hár, Jafnhár, and Þriðji, it is revealed to him in stanza 20 the list of names by which Odin is known (I cite here the [norse version](http://www.heimskringla.no/wiki/Gylfaginning) in case the issue was with translation):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hétumk Grímr  &#xD;&#xA;ok **Gangleri**,  &#xD;&#xA;Herjann, Hjalmberi,  &#xD;&#xA;Þekkr, **Þriði**,    &#xD;&#xA;Þuðr, Uðr,     &#xD;&#xA;Helblindi, **Hárr**,   &#xD;&#xA;Saðr, Svipall,  &#xD;&#xA;Sanngetall,   &#xD;&#xA;Herteitr, Hnikarr,   &#xD;&#xA;Bileygr, Báleygr,   &#xD;&#xA;Bölverkr, Fjölnir,   &#xD;&#xA;Grímnir, Glapsviðr, Fjölsviðr,   &#xD;&#xA;Síðhöttr, Síðskeggr,  &#xD;&#xA;Sigföðr, Hnikuðr,  &#xD;&#xA;Alföðr, Atríðr, Farmatýr,  &#xD;&#xA;Óski, Ómi,  &#xD;&#xA;**Jafnhárr**, Biflindi,  &#xD;&#xA;Göndlir, Hárbarðr,  &#xD;&#xA;Sviðurr, Sviðrir,  &#xD;&#xA;Jalkr, Kjalarr, Viðurr,  &#xD;&#xA;Þrór, Yggr, Þundr,  &#xD;&#xA;Vakr, Skilfingr,  &#xD;&#xA;Váfuðr, Hroftatýr,  &#xD;&#xA;Gautr, Veratýr.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not only does the list contains the name of his interlocutors (which was expected) but the pseudonym he chose is also contained in the list, hence my question: what does it mean? Did Gylfi chose the name knowingly? Is it a way for Odin to tell him that he is aware of the trickery? Or just a random etymological coincidence?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4525" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="981" RevisionGUID="69ba7366-e47c-495d-a0b6-d7c8effaae2d" CreationDate="2015-06-29T08:13:57.350" UserId="111" Text="Significance of Gylfi choice of pseudonym" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4526" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="981" RevisionGUID="69ba7366-e47c-495d-a0b6-d7c8effaae2d" CreationDate="2015-06-29T08:13:57.350" UserId="111" Text="|norse|gylfaginning|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4527" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="982" RevisionGUID="21de5053-00c2-47a5-b4b7-ce9c882331fe" CreationDate="2015-06-29T08:46:31.597" UserId="111" Text="Here is the way the whole story after the plowing of Denmark by Gefjun is summarized in another work by Snorri Struluson, the *[Ynglinga Saga](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Heimskringla/Ynglinga_Saga#Odin_Divides_His_Kingdom:_Also_Concerning_Gefion.)*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now when Odin heard that things were in a prosperous condition in the land to the east beside Gylve; he went thither, and Gylve made a peace with him, for Gylve thought he had no strength to oppose the people of Asaland. Odin and Gylve had many tricks and enchantments against each other; but the Asaland people had always the superiority.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Gylfaginning, it is also said that the reason Gylfe is trying to go to Asgard is to learn about the source of the power of the Ases:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; King Gylfe was a wise man and skilled in the black art. He wondered much that the asa-folk was so mighty in knowledge, that all things went after their will. He thought to himself whether this could come from their own nature, or whether the cause must be sought for among the gods whom they worshiped. He therefore undertook a journey to Asgard. He went secretly, having assumed the likeness of an old man, and striving thus to disguise himself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, my understanding is that Gylfe motive is revenge: he was just tricked by an Asa (Gefjun) into losing a big chunk of his kingdom, he knows that the Ases are too powerful for him to fight, and tries therefore to learn a little about them to spot weaknesses.  &#xD;&#xA;So naturally when he sneaks into Asgard for that purpose, he tries to hide his identity." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4528" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="981" RevisionGUID="a43f5b8a-fe78-4cc6-afa3-d526817d74f7" CreationDate="2015-06-29T09:05:01.513" UserId="111" Comment="deleted 39 characters in body" Text="When Gylfi tries to trick the gods into entering Asgard under a false identity, he adopts the name Gangleri.  &#xD;&#xA;Later, during his discussion with Hár, Jafnhár, and Þriðji, it is revealed to him in stanza 20 the list of names by which Odin is known (I cite here the [norse version](http://www.heimskringla.no/wiki/Gylfaginning)):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hétumk Grímr  &#xD;&#xA;ok **Gangleri**,  &#xD;&#xA;Herjann, Hjalmberi,  &#xD;&#xA;Þekkr, **Þriði**,    &#xD;&#xA;Þuðr, Uðr,     &#xD;&#xA;Helblindi, **Hárr**,   &#xD;&#xA;Saðr, Svipall,  &#xD;&#xA;Sanngetall,   &#xD;&#xA;Herteitr, Hnikarr,   &#xD;&#xA;Bileygr, Báleygr,   &#xD;&#xA;Bölverkr, Fjölnir,   &#xD;&#xA;Grímnir, Glapsviðr, Fjölsviðr,   &#xD;&#xA;Síðhöttr, Síðskeggr,  &#xD;&#xA;Sigföðr, Hnikuðr,  &#xD;&#xA;Alföðr, Atríðr, Farmatýr,  &#xD;&#xA;Óski, Ómi,  &#xD;&#xA;**Jafnhárr**, Biflindi,  &#xD;&#xA;Göndlir, Hárbarðr,  &#xD;&#xA;Sviðurr, Sviðrir,  &#xD;&#xA;Jalkr, Kjalarr, Viðurr,  &#xD;&#xA;Þrór, Yggr, Þundr,  &#xD;&#xA;Vakr, Skilfingr,  &#xD;&#xA;Váfuðr, Hroftatýr,  &#xD;&#xA;Gautr, Veratýr.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not only does the list contains the name of his interlocutors (which was expected) but the pseudonym he chose is also contained in the list, hence my question: what does it mean? Did Gylfi chose the name knowingly? Is it a way for Odin to tell him that he is aware of the trickery? Or just a random etymological coincidence?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4529" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="981" RevisionGUID="e38e12a5-b4f8-44a2-b132-b4453492f2ab" CreationDate="2015-06-29T11:00:42.110" UserId="57" Comment="added 2 characters in body; edited title" Text="When Gylfi tries to trick the gods into entering Asgard under a false identity, he adopts the name Gangleri.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later, during his discussion with Hár, Jafnhár, and Þriðji, it is revealed to him in stanza 20 the list of names by which Odin is known (I cite here the [norse version](http://www.heimskringla.no/wiki/Gylfaginning)):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hétumk Grímr  &#xD;&#xA;ok **Gangleri**,  &#xD;&#xA;Herjann, Hjalmberi,  &#xD;&#xA;Þekkr, **Þriði**,    &#xD;&#xA;Þuðr, Uðr,     &#xD;&#xA;Helblindi, **Hárr**,   &#xD;&#xA;Saðr, Svipall,  &#xD;&#xA;Sanngetall,   &#xD;&#xA;Herteitr, Hnikarr,   &#xD;&#xA;Bileygr, Báleygr,   &#xD;&#xA;Bölverkr, Fjölnir,   &#xD;&#xA;Grímnir, Glapsviðr, Fjölsviðr,   &#xD;&#xA;Síðhöttr, Síðskeggr,  &#xD;&#xA;Sigföðr, Hnikuðr,  &#xD;&#xA;Alföðr, Atríðr, Farmatýr,  &#xD;&#xA;Óski, Ómi,  &#xD;&#xA;**Jafnhárr**, Biflindi,  &#xD;&#xA;Göndlir, Hárbarðr,  &#xD;&#xA;Sviðurr, Sviðrir,  &#xD;&#xA;Jalkr, Kjalarr, Viðurr,  &#xD;&#xA;Þrór, Yggr, Þundr,  &#xD;&#xA;Vakr, Skilfingr,  &#xD;&#xA;Váfuðr, Hroftatýr,  &#xD;&#xA;Gautr, Veratýr.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not only does the list contains the name of his interlocutors (which was expected) but the pseudonym he chose is also contained in the list, hence my question: what does it mean? Did Gylfi chose the name knowingly? Is it a way for Odin to tell him that he is aware of the trickery? Or just a random etymological coincidence?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4530" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="981" RevisionGUID="e38e12a5-b4f8-44a2-b132-b4453492f2ab" CreationDate="2015-06-29T11:00:42.110" UserId="57" Comment="added 2 characters in body; edited title" Text="Significance of Gylfi's choice of pseudonym" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4531" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="980" RevisionGUID="f4df56c1-4b3c-491d-a7da-9c17c4f3a16c" CreationDate="2015-06-29T13:49:55.130" UserId="398" Comment="added links" Text="In my internet adventures I've stumbled upon the idea that the story of Jesus was heavily inspired by the ancient Egyptian god Horus. See, for example, some positing it [here](http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins4.htm#foot40c)—by its major modern proponent Acharya S—and [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lLiRr_mT24), a short clip by Bill Maher.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've decided to do some fact checking, but there seems to be a massive amount of stuff written by various religious activists that appear in the top search results for the Horus keyword. Wikipedia also doesn't seem a great resource for such a controversial thing either. It seems like everyone's offended by this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, my questions are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Is there any artifact(rune) showing Horus's crucifixion and is there a consensus between archaeologists that this is correct? It would be cool to see a photo of it.&#xD;&#xA;2. Was he resurrected after that(a photo of an artefact would also be great)?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know the history of Egypt gods spanned thousands of years, and that each god had their origin stories and statuses changing. But if this is present in at least one version of it, that's good enough for me." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4532" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="983" RevisionGUID="02e9c8b3-3e64-45ab-b546-e445d317850f" CreationDate="2015-06-29T22:21:31.353" UserId="467" Text="The myths themselves are not going to give a technical explanation of this, so we are setting off on the wrong foot if we are seeking an answer at such a level, which is that of our modern technological mind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An initial observation to make is that the myth does not always include a shield, as Yannis notes in the case of Hesiod's account. We can also turn to the iconography, which likewise also does not necessarily portray a shield. See, e.g., the metope from Salinas ca. 540 B.C. (at the Museo Nazionale Archeologico in Palermo, Italy; in Morford &amp; Lenardon's *Classical Mythology* 8th ed., p. 552) and the black-figure jug by a Amasis, Attic, 6th cen. BCE (in Neumann, *Consciousness* (below), illustration 25) both showing Perseus killing her while simply averting his gaze. For the Greeks, averting the gaze and looking at her reflection in the shield/mirror were obviously equivalent. Her power was either nullified or greatly diminished when looked at in reflection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I also don't think the eyes were crucial. I'm not aware of any source that stresses her eyes. Rather, they focus on her whole face (Ovid, *Metamorphosis* 4:783) or overall appearance, as in the passage from Apollodoris that you quote. We can't ignore her protruding tongue, tusks, or snakes for hair, since they are all essential to her character and mythological meaning. That's why they are there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we go into the underlying psychological aspects of the myth (as we should with most myths), Perseus, like the typical hero, is in the process of fully realizing his ego consciousness, while this monster represents the all-consuming Terrible Mother of the unconscious seeking to suck him back into there and destroy his nascent ego consciousness. To confront her directly is too dangerous, so only averting the gaze or looking at her indirectly through the reflection will enable him to succeed. In the versions where the &quot;bronze&quot; shield/mirror appears, that is a solar symbol of the ego that not only enables him to see a diminished Medusa, but as which as such also serves as a guide and beacon to him to keep him on course. Here it is also relevant that the Greeks also stressed the details of his escape. When Perseus kills the Medusa, the winged horse Perseus appears out of her (representing the ego that has escaped her, a parallel with Perseus himself), which Perseus rides while being pursued by Medusa's sisters. His winged sandals, helmet, and hiding-wallet, also play a figurative role, for which he has to thank Athena, goddess of wisdom (and so of consciousness). See Edward Edinger, *The Eternal Drama: The Inner Meaning of Greek Mythology,* pp. 4, 83; Erich Neumann, *The Great Mother,* p. 166; Erich Neumann, *The Origins and History of Consciousness,* pp. 87, 178, 214-16.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4533" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="983" RevisionGUID="0de993cc-a140-4b72-a1b7-7b1e57ba67cc" CreationDate="2015-06-29T22:31:20.970" UserId="467" Comment="added 108 characters in body" Text="The myths themselves are not going to give a technical explanation of this, so we are setting off on the wrong foot if we are seeking an answer at such a level, which is that of our modern technological mind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An initial observation to make is that the myth does not always include a shield, as Yannis notes in the case of Hesiod's account. We can also turn to the iconography, which likewise also does not necessarily portray a shield. See, e.g., the metope from Salinas ca. 540 B.C. (at the Museo Nazionale Archeologico in Palermo, Italy; in Morford &amp; Lenardon's *Classical Mythology* 8th ed., p. 552) and the black-figure jug by a Amasis, Attic, 6th cen. BCE (in Neumann, *Consciousness* (below), illustration 25) both showing Perseus killing her while simply averting his gaze. For the Greeks, averting the gaze and looking at her reflection in the shield/mirror were obviously equivalent. Her power was either nullified or greatly diminished when looked at in reflection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I also don't think the eyes were crucial. I'm not aware of any source that stresses her eyes. Rather, they focus on her whole face (Ovid, *Metamorphosis* 4:783) or overall appearance, as in the passage from Apollodoris that you quote. We can't ignore her protruding tongue, tusks, or snakes for hair, since they are all essential to her character and mythological meaning. That's why they are there. And that's why he had to look at the shield even though she was sleeping (presumably her eyes were closed).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we go into the underlying psychological aspects of the myth (as we should with most myths), Perseus, like the typical hero, is in the process of fully realizing his ego consciousness, while this monster represents the all-consuming Terrible Mother of the unconscious seeking to suck him back into there and destroy his nascent ego consciousness. To confront her directly is too dangerous, so only averting the gaze or looking at her indirectly through the reflection will enable him to succeed. In the versions where the &quot;bronze&quot; shield/mirror appears, that is a solar symbol of the ego that not only enables him to see a diminished Medusa, but as which as such also serves as a guide and beacon to him to keep him on course. Here it is also relevant that the Greeks also stressed the details of his escape. When Perseus kills the Medusa, the winged horse Perseus appears out of her (representing the ego that has escaped her, a parallel with Perseus himself), which Perseus rides while being pursued by Medusa's sisters. His winged sandals, invisibility helmet, and hiding-wallet, also play a figurative role, for which he has to thank Athena, goddess of wisdom (and so of consciousness). See Edward Edinger, *The Eternal Drama: The Inner Meaning of Greek Mythology,* pp. 4, 83; Erich Neumann, *The Great Mother,* p. 166; Erich Neumann, *The Origins and History of Consciousness,* pp. 87, 178, 214-16.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4534" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="983" RevisionGUID="7d6f3c14-c21a-4d80-854f-3c6eed473bd7" CreationDate="2015-06-29T22:43:56.197" UserId="467" Comment="added 6 characters in body" Text="The myths themselves are not going to give a technical explanation of this, so we are setting off on the wrong foot if we are seeking an answer at such a level, which is that of our modern technological mind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An initial observation to make is that the myth does not always include a shield, as Yannis notes in the case of Hesiod's account. We can also turn to the iconography, which likewise also does not necessarily portray a shield. See, e.g., the metope from Salinas ca. 540 B.C. (at the Museo Nazionale Archeologico in Palermo, Italy; in Morford &amp; Lenardon's *Classical Mythology* 8th ed., p. 552) and the black-figure jug by a Amasis, Attic, 6th cen. BCE (in Neumann, *Consciousness* (below), illustration 25) both showing Perseus killing her while simply averting his gaze. For the Greeks, averting the gaze and looking at her reflection in the shield/mirror were obviously equivalent. Her power was either nullified or greatly diminished when looked at in reflection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I also don't think the eyes were crucial. I'm not aware of any source that stresses her eyes. Rather, they focus on her whole face (Ovid, *Metamorphosis* 4:783) or overall appearance, as in the passage from Apollodoris that you quote. We can't ignore her protruding tongue, tusks, or snakes for hair, since they are all essential to her character and mythological meaning. That's why they are there. And that's why he had to look at the shield even though she was sleeping (presumably her eyes were closed).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we go into the underlying psychological aspects of the myth (as we should with most myths), Perseus, like the typical hero, is in the process of fully realizing his ego consciousness, while this monster represents the all-consuming Terrible Mother of the unconscious seeking to suck him back into there and destroy his nascent ego consciousness. To confront her directly is too dangerous, so only averting the gaze or looking at her indirectly through the reflection will enable him to succeed. In the versions where the &quot;bronze&quot; shield/mirror appears, that is a solar/light symbol of the ego that not only enables him to see a diminished Medusa, but as which as such also serves as a guide and beacon to him to keep him on course. Here it is also relevant that the Greeks also stressed the details of his escape. When Perseus kills the Medusa, the winged horse Perseus appears out of her (representing the ego that has escaped her, a parallel with Perseus himself), which Perseus rides while being pursued by Medusa's sisters. His winged sandals, invisibility helmet, and hiding-wallet also play a figurative role, for which he has to thank Athena, goddess of wisdom (and so of consciousness). See Edward Edinger, *The Eternal Drama: The Inner Meaning of Greek Mythology,* pp. 4, 83; Erich Neumann, *The Great Mother,* p. 166; Erich Neumann, *The Origins and History of Consciousness,* pp. 87, 178, 214-16.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4535" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="983" RevisionGUID="16119319-bddc-46d8-89ff-5712cde74c6b" CreationDate="2015-06-29T23:42:38.103" UserId="467" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body" Text="The myths themselves are not going to give a technical explanation of this, so we are setting off on the wrong foot if we are seeking an answer at such a level, which is that of our modern technological mind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An initial observation to make is that the myth does not always include a shield, as Yannis notes in the case of Hesiod's account. We can also turn to the iconography, which likewise also does not necessarily portray a shield. See, e.g., the metope from Salinas ca. 540 B.C. (at the Museo Nazionale Archeologico in Palermo, Italy; in Morford &amp; Lenardon's *Classical Mythology* 8th ed., p. 552) and the black-figure jug by Amasis, Attic, 6th cen. BCE (in Neumann, *Consciousness* (below), illustration 25) both showing Perseus killing her while simply averting his gaze. For the Greeks, averting the gaze and looking at her reflection in the shield/mirror were obviously equivalent. Her power was either nullified or greatly diminished when looked at in reflection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I also don't think the eyes were crucial. I'm not aware of any source that stresses her eyes. Rather, they focus on her whole face (Ovid, *Metamorphosis* 4:783) or overall appearance, as in the passage from Apollodoris that you quote. We can't ignore her protruding tongue, tusks, or snakes for hair, since they are all essential to her character and mythological meaning. That's why they are there. And that's why he had to look at the shield even though she was sleeping (presumably her eyes were closed).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we go into the underlying psychological aspects of the myth (as we should with most myths), Perseus, like the typical hero, is in the process of fully realizing his ego consciousness, while this monster represents the all-consuming Terrible Mother of the unconscious seeking to suck him back into there and destroy his nascent ego consciousness. To confront her directly is too dangerous, so only averting the gaze or looking at her indirectly through the reflection will enable him to succeed. In the versions where the &quot;bronze&quot; shield/mirror appears, that is a solar/light symbol of the ego that not only enables him to see a diminished Medusa, but as which as such also serves as a guide and beacon to him to keep him on course. Here it is also relevant that the Greeks also stressed the details of his escape. When Perseus kills the Medusa, the winged horse Perseus appears out of her (representing the ego that has escaped her, a parallel with Perseus himself), which Perseus rides while being pursued by Medusa's sisters. His winged sandals, invisibility helmet, and hiding-wallet also play a figurative role, for which he has to thank Athena, goddess of wisdom (and so of consciousness). See Edward Edinger, *The Eternal Drama: The Inner Meaning of Greek Mythology,* pp. 4, 83; Erich Neumann, *The Great Mother,* p. 166; Erich Neumann, *The Origins and History of Consciousness,* pp. 87, 178, 214-16.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4536" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="984" RevisionGUID="0b72178e-2c1f-464e-a8ab-d234c6da9ac5" CreationDate="2015-06-30T03:20:50.747" UserId="467" Text="I've heard this claim before and see no evidence for it in any Egyptian texts or iconography. Acharya S is unscholarly, makes many silly mistakes, and thus is unreliable; and Maher's people obviously got his bullet points from the Acharya piece to which you linked in your question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Acharya throws up numerous points hoping that some of them will stick, but they don't. She doesn't cite any Egyptian texts that support her view, which is not surprising because there are none and, I would argue, there can be none. This is because the idea that Horus can be crucified and resurrected is logically precluded by Egypt's mythology and religious thinking. While a person is alive (taking the king as the example), he is Horus. But once you die, you become Osiris and are not Horus, so it can only be Osiris who is resurrected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not having any Egyptian texts to rely upon, Acharya relies on images of Horus with his arms out from his sides, and the idea that the Egyptian ankh and Christ's cross are the same. See www.stellarhousepublishing.com/washoruscrucified.html The ankh sign comes not from a cross but from a sandal strap (see Gardiiner sign S34). In Egyptian, the ankh glyph is used to mean &quot;life&quot; as well as for the verb &quot;to live,&quot; but it never is an agency of death; in Egypt no one ever dies on an ankh, much less is crucified on one. There are no such images in the iconography, since crucifixion was not practiced in ancient Egypt (at least before Roman times). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further, a figure holding out his arms in itself says nothing about death or crucifixion, or a cross or Christ. Acharya's notion reminds me of Tertullian's laughable interpretation of Moses' surveying the Hebrews' (led by Joshua) the battle against the Amalekites (Exod.17:8-13), where by standing on a hill and surveying the battle below, Moses (with help from Aaron and Hur) held his hands out to his sides and so caused the Hebrews to prevail. Tertullian claimed that this posture prefigured Christ and the cross, foretelling the cross through which Christ would be victorious over death and bring salvation. (Tertullian, *Against Marcion,* Book 3, Ch. 18.) No one would agree with such kinds of interpretations today. Yet Acharya relies in similarly ignorant/silly statements by Church Fathers to support her claim.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, to put it bluntly, the idea is Horuss**t." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4537" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="983" RevisionGUID="cfe7ba94-9e3e-41ae-910f-9591fc0c8673" CreationDate="2015-06-30T03:32:48.983" UserId="467" Comment="added 75 characters in body" Text="The myths themselves are not going to give a technical explanation of this, so we are setting off on the wrong foot if we are seeking an answer at such a level, which is that of our modern technological mind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An initial observation to make is that the myth does not always include a shield, as Yannis notes in the case of Hesiod's account. We can also turn to the iconography, which likewise also does not necessarily portray a shield. See, e.g., the metope from Salinas ca. 540 B.C. (at the Museo Nazionale Archeologico in Palermo, Italy; in Morford &amp; Lenardon's *Classical Mythology* 8th ed., p. 552) and the black-figure jug by Amasis, Attic, 6th cen. BCE (in Neumann, *Consciousness* (below), illustration 25) both showing Perseus killing her while simply averting his gaze. For the Greeks, averting the gaze and looking at her reflection in the shield/mirror were obviously equivalent. Her power was either nullified or greatly diminished when looked at in reflection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I also don't think the eyes were crucial. I'm not aware of any source that stresses her eyes. Rather, they focus on her whole face (Ovid, *Metamorphosis* 4:783) or overall appearance, as in the passage from Apollodoris that you quote. We can't ignore her protruding tongue, tusks, or snakes for hair, since they are all essential to her character and mythological meaning. That's why they are there. And that's why he had to look at the shield even though she was sleeping (presumably her eyes were closed).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we go into the underlying psychological aspects of the myth (as we should with most myths), Perseus, like the typical hero, is in the process of fully realizing his ego consciousness, while this monster represents the all-consuming Terrible Mother of the unconscious seeking to suck him back into there and destroy his nascent ego consciousness. To confront her directly is too dangerous, so only averting the gaze or looking at her indirectly through the reflection will enable him to succeed. In the versions where the &quot;bronze&quot; shield/mirror appears, that is a solar/light symbol of the ego that not only enables him to see a diminished Medusa, but as which as such also serves as a guide and beacon to him to keep him on course. Here it is also relevant that the Greeks also stressed the details of his escape. When Perseus kills the Medusa, the winged horse Perseus appears out of her (representing the ego that has escaped her, a parallel with Perseus himself), which Perseus rides while being pursued by Medusa's sisters. His winged sandals, invisibility helmet, and hiding-wallet also play a figurative role, for which he has to thank Athena, goddess of wisdom (and so of consciousness). See Edward Edinger, *The Eternal Drama: The Inner Meaning of Greek Mythology,* pp. 4, 83; Erich Neumann, *The Great Mother,* p. 166; Erich Neumann, *The Origins and History of Consciousness,* pp. 87, 178, 214-16.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I hope this helps.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Arthur George&#xD;&#xA;www.mythologymatters.wordpress.com  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4538" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="984" RevisionGUID="18bc6b45-f9a0-4f51-a1f4-f92820cde17c" CreationDate="2015-06-30T03:34:23.603" UserId="467" Comment="added 57 characters in body" Text="I've heard this claim before and see no evidence for it in any Egyptian texts or iconography. Acharya S is unscholarly, makes many silly mistakes, and thus is unreliable; and Maher's people obviously got his bullet points from the Acharya piece to which you linked in your question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Acharya throws up numerous points hoping that some of them will stick, but they don't. She doesn't cite any Egyptian texts that support her view, which is not surprising because there are none and, I would argue, there can be none. This is because the idea that Horus can be crucified and resurrected is logically precluded by Egypt's mythology and religious thinking. While a person is alive (taking the king as the example), he is Horus. But once you die, you become Osiris and are not Horus, so it can only be Osiris who is resurrected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not having any Egyptian texts to rely upon, Acharya relies on images of Horus with his arms out from his sides, and the idea that the Egyptian ankh and Christ's cross are the same. See www.stellarhousepublishing.com/washoruscrucified.html The ankh sign comes not from a cross but from a sandal strap (see Gardiiner sign S34). In Egyptian, the ankh glyph is used to mean &quot;life&quot; as well as for the verb &quot;to live,&quot; but it never is an agency of death; in Egypt no one ever dies on an ankh, much less is crucified on one. There are no such images in the iconography, since crucifixion was not practiced in ancient Egypt (at least before Roman times). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further, a figure holding out his arms in itself says nothing about death or crucifixion, or a cross or Christ. Acharya's notion reminds me of Tertullian's laughable interpretation of Moses' surveying the Hebrews' (led by Joshua) the battle against the Amalekites (Exod.17:8-13), where by standing on a hill and surveying the battle below, Moses (with help from Aaron and Hur) held his hands out to his sides and so caused the Hebrews to prevail. Tertullian claimed that this posture prefigured Christ and the cross, foretelling the cross through which Christ would be victorious over death and bring salvation. (Tertullian, *Against Marcion,* Book 3, Ch. 18.) No one would agree with such kinds of interpretations today. Yet Acharya relies in similarly ignorant/silly statements by Church Fathers to support her claim.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, to put it bluntly, the idea is a load of Horuss**t.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Arthur George&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;www.mythologymatters.wordpress.com&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4539" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="984" RevisionGUID="5c48b23f-9874-4125-a1df-76d314bcc404" CreationDate="2015-06-30T04:11:05.387" UserId="467" Comment="added 21 characters in body" Text="I've heard this claim before and see no evidence for it in any Egyptian texts or iconography. Acharya S is unscholarly, makes many silly mistakes, and thus is unreliable; and Maher's people obviously got his bullet points from the Acharya piece to which you linked in your question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Acharya throws up numerous points hoping that some of them will stick, but they don't. She doesn't cite any Egyptian texts that support her view, which is not surprising because there are none and, I would argue, there can be none. This is because the idea that Horus can be crucified and resurrected is logically precluded by Egypt's mythology and religious thinking. While a person is alive (taking the king as the example), he is Horus. But once you die, you become Osiris and are not Horus, so it can only be Osiris who is resurrected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not having any Egyptian texts to rely upon, Acharya relies on images of Horus with his arms out from his sides, and the idea that the Egyptian ankh and Christ's cross are the same. See www.stellarhousepublishing.com/washoruscrucified.html The ankh sign comes not from a cross but from a sandal strap (see Gardiiner sign S34). In Egyptian, the ankh glyph is used to mean &quot;life&quot; as well as for the verb &quot;to live,&quot; but it never is an agency of death; in Egypt no one ever dies on an ankh, much less is crucified on one. There are no such images in the iconography, since crucifixion was not practiced in ancient Egypt (at least before Roman times). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further, a figure holding out his arms in itself says nothing about death or crucifixion, or a cross or Christ. Acharya's notion reminds me of Tertullian's laughable interpretation of Moses' surveying the Hebrews' (led by Joshua) the battle against the Amalekites (Exod.17:8-13), where by standing on a hill and surveying the battle below, Moses (with help from Aaron and Hur) held his hands out to his sides and so caused the Hebrews to prevail. Tertullian claimed that this posture prefigured Christ and the cross, foretelling the cross through which Christ would be victorious over death and bring salvation. (Tertullian, *Against Marcion,* Book 3, Ch. 18.) No one would agree with such kinds of interpretations today. Yet Acharya relies in similarly ignorant/silly statements and wishful thinking by Church Fathers to support her claim.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, to put it bluntly, the idea is a load of Horuss**t.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Arthur George&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;www.mythologymatters.wordpress.com&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4540" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="963" RevisionGUID="7706f6b2-2fe4-48fe-a5d9-3d564e3bf2f4" CreationDate="2015-06-30T04:12:52.973" UserId="467" Comment="added 53 characters in body" Text="This idea based on the Sumerian myth known as *Enki and Ninhursag* (see *ANET,* pp. 37-41) keeps popping up, especially in popular literature and on the internet. Kramer, however, did give credence to it, as mentioned by the blogger to whom you linked (see Kramer's *History Begins at Sumer,* pp. 143-44). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To make a long story short, the god Enki out of curiosity eats 8 plants in the paradise of Dilmun (cf. Eve eating the forbidden fruit), which the goddess Ninhursag considers a mortal sin, so she causes 8 of Enki's body parts (including his rib) to suffer, and he is on the brink of death. Enlil takes up Enki's cause and persuades Ninhursag to relent, and so various deities then come to heal each of Enki's body parts. The one who heals his rib is the goddess Ninti, whose name means both &quot;lady of the rib,&quot; and &quot;lady who makes live,&quot; which serves as a pun. Thus is established a possible parallel between Ninti and Eve, who was created from Adam's rib (in Hebrew *tesla*) and whose name in Hebrew (*hawwa*) connotes life (thus Eve was called &quot;the mother of all the living&quot; in Genesis 3:20). The pun doesn't work in Hebrew since the words for rib and life differ, but I'm not sure the biblical writer knew about it or, if he did, cared. (Having said that, it looks like the biblical writer made his own pun, because the Hebrew word for rib, *tsela,* can also connote &quot;stumbling,&quot; so although Eve was ostensibly created to be Adam's helper (Gen. 2:18), she proved to be his stumbling block.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are obvious parallels here, which have gotten many people excited, but proving a direct influence has proved elusive, and I know of no biblical scholars (whether faith-based or secular) who maintain that there is any such direct influence, because the usual scholarly criteria for proving intertextual influence are not strongly met here; but this remains a reasonable possibility. More generally, many prevalent ancient Near Eastern mythological motifs do show up in the Hebrew Bible, so it is clear to me that biblical Palestine shared a common cultural (including mythological) context with the broader ancient Near East.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Arthur George&#xD;&#xA;www.mythologymatters.wordpress.com&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4541" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="971" RevisionGUID="c18b905b-3ed6-43b5-ab47-3f472dd0bb5c" CreationDate="2015-06-30T04:14:00.997" UserId="467" Comment="added 55 characters in body" Text="It is necessary to make some distinctions here. While the word &quot;el&quot; is a generic word for a god, it is also the proper name for the head of the Canaanite pantheon, El. His origins are most directly from the Amorite god Amurru, but going further back he shared traits with Anue (An) and Ea (Enki). In Ugarit he was viewed as the creator god and, with his wife Asherah, fathered the other Canaanite gods and goddesses that we see, for example, in the Ugaritic myths including the Keret myth that you mention.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The answer to your question whether this is the same god as El in the Bible gets more complicated. The Canaanite El was originally the chief god in Palestine, where Israel later emerged. Yahweh, as the Bible itself attests several times (Deut. 33:2-3; Judg. 5:4-5; Hab. 3:3, 7; Ps. 68:8-9; Zech. 9:14), was originally from Seir (or Teman) in the Midian, which spans the east and west sides of the Araba valley in Sinai. Once Yahweh arrived in Palestine from migrants from the Midian (which echoes the stories in Exodus and Numbers), he had to compete for supremacy with the native Canaanite gods. Over time, El was merged into Yahweh, the survivor. Since this merger took place only over time, that's why we see so many references in the Hebrew Bible where Yahweh and El are intended as the same, or more accurately are retroactively explained as being the same. The issue is also confused because the different authors of the Hebrew Bible presenting different positions on this question. Thus, according to one version, the Hebrew god is announced as Yahweh (being the same as the god of Abraham which was El) to Moses at the burning bush (Exodus 3:15, by the Elohist author), which implies that Yahweh was not previously known to the Hebrews. But another author (known as the Yahwist, or J) calls God Yahweh even in the Eden story, and in Genesis 4:26 says that God was known as Yahweh almost from the beginning of humankind. This difference may reflect a situation where the traditional El remained strong in the northern kingdom of Israel, whereas the upstart god Yahweh was being promoted in Judah.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For further reference, this process of merger is discussed well in Mark Smith's book entitled The Early History of God.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a side note, El's wife Asherah was inherited by Yahweh as a result of their merger. That too became a big issue for proponents of official Temple religion as time went on, as they tried to eliminate her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Arthur George&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;www.mythologymatters.wordpress.com&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4542" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="983" RevisionGUID="06d40c30-5f78-4558-833d-4262a05693e7" CreationDate="2015-06-30T04:16:30.113" UserId="467" Comment="added 5 characters in body" Text="The myths themselves are not going to give a technical explanation of this, so we are setting off on the wrong foot if we are seeking an answer at such a level, which is that of our modern technological mind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An initial observation to make is that the myth does not always include a shield, as Yannis notes in the case of Hesiod's account. We can also turn to the iconography, which likewise also does not necessarily portray a shield. See, e.g., the metope from Salinas ca. 540 B.C. (at the Museo Nazionale Archeologico in Palermo, Italy; in Morford &amp; Lenardon's *Classical Mythology* 8th ed., p. 552) and the black-figure jug by Amasis, Attic, 6th cen. BCE (in Neumann, *Consciousness* (below), illustration 25) both showing Perseus killing her while simply averting his gaze. For the Greeks, averting the gaze and looking at her reflection in the shield/mirror were obviously equivalent. Her power was either nullified or greatly diminished when looked at in reflection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I also don't think the eyes were crucial. I'm not aware of any source that stresses her eyes. Rather, they focus on her whole face (Ovid, *Metamorphosis* 4:783) or overall appearance, as in the passage from Apollodoris that you quote. We can't ignore her protruding tongue, tusks, or snakes for hair, since they are all essential to her character and mythological meaning. That's why they are there. And that's why Perseus had to look at the shield even though she was sleeping (presumably her eyes were closed).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we go into the underlying psychological aspects of the myth (as we should with most myths), Perseus, like the typical hero, is in the process of fully realizing his ego consciousness, while this monster represents the all-consuming Terrible Mother of the unconscious seeking to suck him back into there and destroy his nascent ego consciousness. To confront her directly is too dangerous, so only averting the gaze or looking at her indirectly through the reflection will enable him to succeed. In the versions where the &quot;bronze&quot; shield/mirror appears, that is a solar/light symbol of the ego that not only enables him to see a diminished Medusa, but as which as such also serves as a guide and beacon to him to keep him on course. Here it is also relevant that the Greeks also stressed the details of his escape. When Perseus kills the Medusa, the winged horse Perseus appears out of her (representing the ego that has escaped her, a parallel with Perseus himself), which Perseus rides while being pursued by Medusa's sisters. His winged sandals, invisibility helmet, and hiding-wallet also play a figurative role, for which he has to thank Athena, goddess of wisdom (and so of consciousness). See Edward Edinger, *The Eternal Drama: The Inner Meaning of Greek Mythology,* pp. 4, 83; Erich Neumann, *The Great Mother,* p. 166; Erich Neumann, *The Origins and History of Consciousness,* pp. 87, 178, 214-16.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I hope this helps.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Arthur George&#xD;&#xA;www.mythologymatters.wordpress.com  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4543" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="985" RevisionGUID="845bc4bf-de52-473a-a992-f7c3be897e1d" CreationDate="2015-06-30T05:24:54.280" UserId="215" Text="Greek mythology is full of different accounts of the same exact facts, based on which source you use.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a random example, here's the assorted sourced details on Prometheus' parentage from Wikipedia:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Hesiod's Works and Days Prometheus is addressed as &quot;son of Iapetus&quot;, and no mother is named. However, in Hesiod's Theogony, Clymene is listed as Iapetus' wife and the mother of Prometheus. In Aeschylus's play Prometheus Bound, Prometheus is son of the goddess Themis with no father named (but still with at least Atlas as a brother). However, in Horace's Odes, in Ode 1.3 Horace describes how &quot;audax Iapeti genus/ Ignem fraude mala gentibus intulit&quot;; &quot;The bold offspring of Iapetus [i.e. Prometheus]/ brought fire to peoples by wicked deceit&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is by no means the only point of discrepancy between various Greek mythological sources. I can probably stick my finger into a random Mythology.SE answer and find one (e.g., a random Q&amp;A I read today, about Gorgon's sight being non-lethal because of the shield, vs. because she was asleep and there was no shield-mirror-gazing at all).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Did any of the well known sources ever explicitly acknowledge the differences between their own version of the myth details, and another source's version?** I'd prefer a &quot;bulk&quot; acknowledgement (e.g. the fact that many details differ), but one only highlighting difference of a specific detail is sufficient.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4544" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="985" RevisionGUID="845bc4bf-de52-473a-a992-f7c3be897e1d" CreationDate="2015-06-30T05:24:54.280" UserId="215" Text="Did different Greek mythology sources ever explicitly acknowledge the contradictions between themselves?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4545" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="985" RevisionGUID="845bc4bf-de52-473a-a992-f7c3be897e1d" CreationDate="2015-06-30T05:24:54.280" UserId="215" Text="|greek|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4546" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="984" RevisionGUID="5eee27fa-5e28-4366-b2a5-e5f0ff58dcdb" CreationDate="2015-06-30T05:30:10.990" UserId="467" Comment="deleted 4 characters in body" Text="I've heard this claim before and see no evidence for it in any Egyptian texts or iconography. Acharya S is unscholarly, makes many silly mistakes, and thus is unreliable; and Maher's people obviously got his bullet points from the Acharya piece to which you linked in your question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Acharya throws up numerous points hoping that some of them will stick, but they don't. She doesn't cite any Egyptian texts that support her view, which is not surprising because there are none and, I would argue, there can be none. This is because the idea that Horus can be crucified and resurrected is logically precluded by Egypt's mythology and religious thinking. While a person is alive (taking the king as the example), he is Horus. But once you die, you become Osiris and are not Horus, so it can only be Osiris who is resurrected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not having any Egyptian texts to rely upon, Acharya relies on images of Horus with his arms out from his sides, and the idea that the Egyptian ankh and Christ's cross are the same. See www.stellarhousepublishing.com/washoruscrucified.html The ankh sign comes not from a cross but from a sandal strap (see Gardiiner sign S34). In Egyptian, the ankh glyph is used to mean &quot;life&quot; as well as for the verb &quot;to live,&quot; but it never is an agency of death; in Egypt no one ever dies on an ankh, much less is crucified on one. There are no such images in the iconography, since crucifixion was not practiced in ancient Egypt (at least before Roman times). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further, a figure holding out his arms in itself says nothing about death or crucifixion, or a cross or Christ. Acharya's notion reminds me of Tertullian's laughable interpretation of Moses' surveying the Hebrews' (led by Joshua) battle against the Amalekites (Exod.17:8-13), where by standing on a hill and surveying the battle below, Moses (with help from Aaron and Hur) held his hands out to his sides and so caused the Hebrews to prevail. Tertullian claimed that this posture prefigured Christ and the cross, foretelling the cross through which Christ would be victorious over death and bring salvation. (Tertullian, *Against Marcion,* Book 3, Ch. 18.) No one would agree with such kinds of interpretations today. Yet Acharya relies in similarly ignorant/silly statements and wishful thinking by Church Fathers to support her claim.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, to put it bluntly, the idea is a load of Horuss**t.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Arthur George&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;www.mythologymatters.wordpress.com&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4547" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="986" RevisionGUID="9d39bc67-d796-4551-9e26-f8c4448814ea" CreationDate="2015-06-30T05:44:44.337" UserId="398" Text="Short answer, no. There is no writing, inscription, artwork, statuary, or anything that indicates Horus (or Osiris) was crucified.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is death and resurrection in Horus' story, though. The Metternich Stele relates the story of Horus dying by the sting of a scorpion. Budge has a nice summary:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/leg/leg11.htm&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now soon after Isis had restored to life the son of the woman who had shown churlishness to her, a terrible calamity fell upon her, for her beloved son Horus was stung by a scorpion and died. The news of this event was conveyed to her by the gods, who cried out to her to come to see her son Horus, whom the terrible scorpion Uhat had killed. Isis, stabbed with pain at the news, as if a knife had been driven into her body, ran out distraught with grief. It seems that she had gone to perform a religious ceremony in honour of Osiris in a temple near Hetep-hemt, leaving her child carefully concealed in Sekhet-An. During her absence the scorpion Uhat, which had been sent by Set, forced its way into the biding-place of Horus, and there stung him to death. When Isis came and found the dead body, she burst forth in lamentations, the sound of which brought all the people from the neighbouring districts to her side.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A little bit later: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then he came to Isis and told her that no harm could possibly have happened to Horus, for he was under the protection of the Boat of Ra; but his words failed to comfort Isis, and though she acknowledged the greatness of his designs, she complained that they savoured of delay. &quot;What is the good,&quot; she asks, &quot;of all thy spells, and incantations, and magical formulae, and the great command of maa-kheru, if Horus is to perish by the poison of a scorpion, and to lie here in the arms of Death? Evil, evil is his destiny, for it hath entailed the deepest misery for him and death.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In answer to these words Thoth, turning to Isis and Nephthys, bade them to fear not, and to have no anxiety about Horus, &quot;For,&quot; said he, &quot;I have come from heaven to heal the child for his mother.&quot; He then pointed out that Horus was under protection as the Dweller in his Disk (Aten), the Great Dwarf, the Mighty Ram, the Great Hawk, the Holy Beetle, the Hidden Body, the Divine Bennu, etc., and proceeded to utter the great spell which restored Horus to life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thinking of Horus as a prefiguration of Jesus Christ is a clear-cut case of [parallelomania](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&amp;rct=j&amp;q=&amp;esrc=s&amp;source=web&amp;cd=2&amp;cad=rja&amp;uact=8&amp;ved=0CCUQFjAB&amp;url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sbl-site.org%2Fassets%2Fpdfs%2Fpresidentialaddresses%2FJBL81_1_1Sandmel1961.pdf&amp;ei=OiuSVZSpM4na-QGc36uYDA&amp;usg=AFQjCNGryVzi_dnulla8QCrdTwahuEXf1w&amp;sig2=2PNWTsY81EwboxzU4iN62A&amp;bvm=bv.96783405,d.cWw) (warning: PDF). Unfortunately, with &quot;researchers&quot; like Acharya S., sometimes the faint parallels (death and revival) become the overarching theme, hiding away any (especially major!)  differences, and twists the rest of the narrative to fit. For example, this was not related to any divine soul-saving god, but rather to ancient Egyptian (religiously-based) medical practices. See Nunn 2002 _Ancient Egyptian Medicine_ [pp. 108–109](https://books.google.com/books?id=WHfEnVU6z8IC&amp;pg=PA108)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4548" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="984" RevisionGUID="ff20d6ab-2548-4501-8660-b87da562acc6" CreationDate="2015-06-30T06:19:18.603" UserId="467" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="I've heard this claim before and see no evidence for it in any Egyptian texts or iconography. Acharya S is unscholarly, makes many silly mistakes, and thus is unreliable; and Maher's people obviously got his bullet points from the Acharya piece to which you linked in your question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Acharya throws up numerous points hoping that some of them will stick, but they don't. She doesn't cite any Egyptian texts that support her view, which is not surprising because there are none and, I would argue, there can be none. This is because the idea that Horus can be crucified and resurrected is logically precluded by Egypt's mythology and religious thinking. While a person is alive (taking the king as the example), he is Horus. But once you die, you become Osiris and are not Horus, so it can only be Osiris who is resurrected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not having any Egyptian texts to rely upon, Acharya relies on images of Horus with his arms out from his sides, and the idea that the Egyptian ankh and Christ's cross are the same. See www.stellarhousepublishing.com/washoruscrucified.html The ankh sign comes not from a cross but from a sandal strap (see Gardiner sign S34). In Egyptian, the ankh glyph is used to mean &quot;life&quot; as well as for the verb &quot;to live,&quot; but it never is an agency of death; in Egypt no one ever dies on an ankh, much less is crucified on one. There are no such images in the iconography, since crucifixion was not practiced in ancient Egypt (at least before Roman times). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further, a figure holding out his arms in itself says nothing about death or crucifixion, or a cross or Christ. Acharya's notion reminds me of Tertullian's laughable interpretation of Moses' surveying the Hebrews' (led by Joshua) battle against the Amalekites (Exod.17:8-13), where by standing on a hill and surveying the battle below, Moses (with help from Aaron and Hur) held his hands out to his sides and so caused the Hebrews to prevail. Tertullian claimed that this posture prefigured Christ and the cross, foretelling the cross through which Christ would be victorious over death and bring salvation. (Tertullian, *Against Marcion,* Book 3, Ch. 18.) No one would agree with such kinds of interpretations today. Yet Acharya relies in similarly ignorant/silly statements and wishful thinking by Church Fathers to support her claim.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, to put it bluntly, the idea is a load of Horuss**t.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Arthur George&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;www.mythologymatters.wordpress.com&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4549" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="987" RevisionGUID="ee9839b4-14bf-4ea5-9467-261beb9550d8" CreationDate="2015-06-30T07:34:08.870" UserId="398" Text="They indeed did, and they highlighted it in different ways. One way was to negate the earlier myth. I gave one example in a [previous thread](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/598/was-there-a-significant-transformation-of-the-heracles-mythos-from-homeric-times/970#970). In Pindar's _Olympians_ ode 1, he references the fact that others before him have a version of a myth that is incompatible with his beliefs, namely that Tantalus would kill his son Pelops and feed him to the gods. Instead he creates a story of jealous neighbors who propagate the false myth; really, Pelops was just on Olympus with Poseidon all along!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another way to do it is to just ignore the discrepancy, because the discrepancy is not the main point. Hesiod's _Works and Days_ has a good example of this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First, he includes a self-correction:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So, after all, there was not one kind of Strife alone, but all over the earth there are two.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Hesiod, _Works and Days_, 11](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0132%3Acard%3D11)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [_Theogony_ 225](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D207), Hesiod originally listed the goddess Strife (Eris in Greek), who was born of Night (Nyx). Because the point of the _Works and Days_ is different from Theogony, in that he wants to promote the labor of men and hard work, he invents another Strife to use for didactic purposes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But the real inconsistency lies further in. In [_Works and Days_ 42-104](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0132%3Acard%3D42), Hesiod narrates the fall of man through the story of Pandora. After Prometheus stole fire from Olympus and gave it to men, Zeus, angry that men might not now work as hard, devised a plan to give them woman. He made the first woman, Pandora, gave her intense curiosity, and then gave her to Epimetheus, the brother of Prometheus. He then gave Epimetheus a box (nowadays called a jar) filled with various evils. Her curiosity got the better of her, and she opening the box let out all the evils to plague mankind, making it worse than before.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, he thinks that maybe his story didn't quite get across:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So is there no way to escape the will of Zeus. Or if you will, I will sum you up another tale well and skilfully—and do you lay it up in your heart,—how the gods and mortal men sprang from one source.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Hesiod, _Works and Days_ 109](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0132%3Acard%3D83)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now ([109-179](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0132%3Acard%3D109)) Hesiod narrates the &quot;races of men,&quot; in which mortals are created by the gods in several different metals: gold first, and blessed are they; then silver, but they were full of hubris; then bronze, but they were too bloodthirsty; then the &quot;Age of Heroes&quot;, i.e. the Trojan and Theban material; lastly the iron age, which is the current age, and was made degenerate. There is no Pandora, there is no Promethean fire, and that doesn't seem to bother him much. Perhaps these might be closer to parables, but Greek writers believed in them in earnest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later authors, especially late ones, tended to accept some and expect variation among reports. [Diodorus Siculus](http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Diodorus_Siculus/4B*.html) is a good example of this one. When discussing the famous [Calydonian Boar hunt](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/627/are-there-any-ancient-myths-about-adventuring-parties/940#940), he first gives a brief overview of the accepted &quot;facts&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The facts are these: Once when Oeneus had an excellent crop of grain, he offered sacrifices to the other gods, but neglected Artemis alone; and angered at him for this the goddess sent forth against him the famous Calydonian boar, a creature of enormous size. 3 This animal harried the neighbouring land and damaged the farms; whereupon Meleager, the son of Oeneus, being then in the bloom of youth and excelling in strength and in courage, took along with himself many of the bravest men and set out to hunt the beast. Meleager was the first to plunge his javelin into it and by general agreement was accorded the reward of valour, which consisted of the skin of the animal. 4 But Atalantê, the daughter of Schoeneus, participated in the hunt, and since Meleager was enamoured of her, he relinquished in her favour the skin and the praise for the greatest bravery. The sons of Thestius, however, who had also joined in the hunt, were angered at what he had done, since he had honoured a stranger woman above them and set kinship aside. Consequently, setting at naught the award which Meleager had made, they lay in wait for Atalantê, and falling upon her as she returned to Arcadia took from her the skin. 5 Meleager, however, was deeply incensed both because of the love which he bore Atalantê and because of the dishonour shown her, and espoused the cause of Atalantê. And first of all he urged the robbers to return to the woman the meed of valour which he had given her; and when they paid no heed to him he slew them, although they were brothers of Althaea. Consequently Althaea, overcome with anguish at the slaying of the men of her own blood, uttered a curse in which she demanded the death of Meleager; and the immortals, so the account runs, gave heed to her and made an end of his life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He then _immediately_ follows it up with an account given by &quot;certain writers of myth&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But certain writers of myths give the following account: — At the time of the birth of Meleager the Fates stood over Althaea in her sleep and said to her that her son Meleager would die at the moment when the brand in the fire had been consumed. Consequently, when she had given birth, she believed that the safety of her child depended upon the preservation of the brand and so she guarded the brand with every care. 7 Afterward, however, being deeply incensed at the murder of her brothers, she burned the brand and so made herself the cause of the death of Meleager; but as time went on she grieved more and more over what she had done and finally made an end of her life by hanging.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And that's just it! It doesn't seem to bother Diodorus at all, and it likely didn't bother very many Greeks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a similar way, the accounts of Electra in Aeschylus' _Oresteia_, Sophocles' _Electra_, and both Euripides' _Electra_ and his _Orestes_ all differ greatly from each other, depending on what they want to emphasize. This was not only acceptable, but encouraged, as sticking too close to someone else's interpretation was considered bad-form, as some comedians were accused of doing; check out Scott McGill's Plagiarism in Latin Literature (2012) [pp. 130-131](https://books.google.com/books?id=B8AxNv5CTdEC&amp;pg=PA130#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false) (earlier pages are unfortunately hidden for Google Books, but the discussion goes on a bit before and after if you want to find a real copy) for an early Roman accusation against Plautus and Terence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D207" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4551" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="984" RevisionGUID="02ab1532-709b-4802-86d9-3b2331813723" CreationDate="2015-06-30T12:31:01.630" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="removed signature" Text="I've heard this claim before and see no evidence for it in any Egyptian texts or iconography. Acharya S is unscholarly, makes many silly mistakes, and thus is unreliable; and Maher's people obviously got his bullet points from the Acharya piece to which you linked in your question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Acharya throws up numerous points hoping that some of them will stick, but they don't. She doesn't cite any Egyptian texts that support her view, which is not surprising because there are none and, I would argue, there can be none. This is because the idea that Horus can be crucified and resurrected is logically precluded by Egypt's mythology and religious thinking. While a person is alive (taking the king as the example), he is Horus. But once you die, you become Osiris and are not Horus, so it can only be Osiris who is resurrected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not having any Egyptian texts to rely upon, Acharya relies on images of Horus with his arms out from his sides, and the idea that the Egyptian ankh and Christ's cross are the same. See [www.stellarhousepublishing.com/washoruscrucified.html](http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/washoruscrucified.html) The ankh sign comes not from a cross but from a sandal strap (see Gardiner sign S34). In Egyptian, the ankh glyph is used to mean &quot;life&quot; as well as for the verb &quot;to live,&quot; but it never is an agency of death; in Egypt no one ever dies on an ankh, much less is crucified on one. There are no such images in the iconography, since crucifixion was not practiced in ancient Egypt (at least before Roman times). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further, a figure holding out his arms in itself says nothing about death or crucifixion, or a cross or Christ. Acharya's notion reminds me of Tertullian's laughable interpretation of Moses' surveying the Hebrews' (led by Joshua) battle against the Amalekites (Exod.17:8-13), where by standing on a hill and surveying the battle below, Moses (with help from Aaron and Hur) held his hands out to his sides and so caused the Hebrews to prevail. Tertullian claimed that this posture prefigured Christ and the cross, foretelling the cross through which Christ would be victorious over death and bring salvation. (Tertullian, *Against Marcion,* Book 3, Ch. 18.) No one would agree with such kinds of interpretations today. Yet Acharya relies in similarly ignorant/silly statements and wishful thinking by Church Fathers to support her claim.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, to put it bluntly, the idea is a load of Horuss**t.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4552" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="983" RevisionGUID="031600ee-f03c-407a-9e57-3692872b8fac" CreationDate="2015-06-30T14:26:59.823" UserId="467" Comment="deleted 51 characters in body" Text="The myths themselves are not going to give a technical explanation of this, so we are setting off on the wrong foot if we are seeking an answer at such a level, which is that of our modern technological mind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An initial observation to make is that the myth does not always include a shield, as Yannis notes in the case of Hesiod's account. We can also turn to the iconography, which likewise also does not necessarily portray a shield. See, e.g., the metope from Salinas ca. 540 B.C. (at the Museo Nazionale Archeologico in Palermo, Italy; in Morford &amp; Lenardon's *Classical Mythology* 8th ed., p. 552) and the black-figure jug by Amasis, Attic, 6th cen. BCE (in Neumann, *Consciousness* (below), illustration 25) both showing Perseus killing her while simply averting his gaze. For the Greeks, averting the gaze and looking at her reflection in the shield/mirror were obviously equivalent. Her power was either nullified or greatly diminished when looked at in reflection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I also don't think the eyes were crucial. I'm not aware of any source that stresses her eyes. Rather, they focus on her whole face (Ovid, *Metamorphosis* 4:783) or overall appearance, as in the passage from Apollodoris that you quote. We can't ignore her protruding tongue, tusks, or snakes for hair, since they are all essential to her character and mythological meaning. That's why they are there. And that's why Perseus had to look at the shield even though she was sleeping (presumably her eyes were closed).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we go into the underlying psychological aspects of the myth (as we should with most myths), Perseus, like the typical hero, is in the process of fully realizing his ego consciousness, while this monster represents the all-consuming Terrible Mother of the unconscious seeking to suck him back into there and destroy his nascent ego consciousness. To confront her directly is too dangerous, so only averting the gaze or looking at her indirectly through the reflection will enable him to succeed. In the versions where the &quot;bronze&quot; shield/mirror appears, that is a solar/light symbol of the ego that not only enables him to see a diminished Medusa, but as which as such also serves as a guide and beacon to him to keep him on course. Here it is also relevant that the Greeks also stressed the details of his escape. When Perseus kills the Medusa, the winged horse Perseus appears out of her (representing the ego that has escaped her, a parallel with Perseus himself), which Perseus rides while being pursued by Medusa's sisters. His winged sandals, invisibility helmet, and hiding-wallet also play a figurative role, for which he has to thank Athena, goddess of wisdom (and so of consciousness). See Edward Edinger, *The Eternal Drama: The Inner Meaning of Greek Mythology,* pp. 4, 83; Erich Neumann, *The Great Mother,* p. 166; Erich Neumann, *The Origins and History of Consciousness,* pp. 87, 178, 214-16.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I hope this helps.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4553" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="984" RevisionGUID="8e92df84-8a60-4807-8d7e-36f69fca68a7" CreationDate="2015-06-30T18:22:14.243" UserId="467" Comment="edited body" Text="I've heard this claim before and see no evidence for it in any Egyptian texts or iconography. Acharya S is unscholarly, makes many silly mistakes, and thus is unreliable; and Maher's people obviously got his bullet points from the Acharya piece to which you linked in your question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Acharya throws up numerous points hoping that some of them will stick, but they don't. She doesn't cite any Egyptian texts that support her view, which is not surprising because there are none and, I would argue, there can be none. This is because the idea that Horus can be crucified and resurrected is logically precluded by Egypt's mythology and religious thinking. While a person is alive (taking the king as the example), he is Horus. But once you die, you become Osiris and are not Horus, so it can only be Osiris who is resurrected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not having any Egyptian texts to rely upon, Acharya relies on images of Horus with his arms out from his sides, and the idea that the Egyptian ankh and Christ's cross are the same. See [www.stellarhousepublishing.com/washoruscrucified.html](http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/washoruscrucified.html) The ankh sign comes not from a cross but from a sandal strap (see Gardiner sign S34). In Egyptian, the ankh glyph is used to mean &quot;life&quot; as well as for the verb &quot;to live,&quot; but it never is an agency of death; in Egypt no one ever dies on an ankh, much less is crucified on one. There are no such images in the iconography, since crucifixion was not practiced in ancient Egypt (at least before Roman times). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further, a figure holding out his arms in itself says nothing about death or crucifixion, or a cross or Christ. Acharya's notion reminds me of Tertullian's laughable interpretation of Moses' surveying the Hebrews' (led by Joshua) battle against the Amalekites (Exod.17:8-13), where by standing on a hill and surveying the battle below, Moses (with help from Aaron and Hur) held his hands out to his sides and so caused the Hebrews to prevail. Tertullian claimed that this posture prefigured Christ and the cross, foretelling the cross through which Christ would be victorious over death and bring salvation. (Tertullian, *Against Marcion,* Book 3, Ch. 18.) No one would agree with such kinds of interpretations today. Yet Acharya relies on similarly ignorant/silly statements and wishful thinking by Church Fathers to support her claim.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, to put it bluntly, the idea is a load of Horuss**t.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4556" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="984" RevisionGUID="9b49c4f3-f15f-4216-97a2-a7e29fbb790f" CreationDate="2015-07-01T23:20:50.990" UserId="467" Comment="added 1781 characters in body" Text="I've heard this claim before and see no evidence for it in any Egyptian texts or iconography. Acharya S is unscholarly, makes many silly mistakes, and thus is unreliable; and Maher's people obviously got his bullet points from the Acharya piece to which you linked in your question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Acharya throws up numerous points hoping that some of them will stick, but they don't. She doesn't cite any Egyptian texts that support her view, which is not surprising because there are none and, I would argue, there can be none. This is because the idea that Horus can be crucified and resurrected is logically precluded by Egypt's mythology and religious thinking. While a person is alive (taking the king as the example), he is Horus. But once you die, you become Osiris and are not Horus, so it can only be Osiris who is resurrected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not having any Egyptian texts to rely upon, Acharya relies on images of Horus with his arms out from his sides, and the idea that the Egyptian ankh and Christ's cross are the same. See [www.stellarhousepublishing.com/washoruscrucified.html](http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/washoruscrucified.html) The ankh sign comes not from a cross but from a sandal strap (see Gardiner sign S34). In Egyptian, the ankh glyph is used to mean &quot;life&quot; as well as for the verb &quot;to live,&quot; but it never is an agency of death; in Egypt no one ever dies on an ankh, much less is crucified on one. There are no such images in the iconography, since crucifixion was not practiced in ancient Egypt (at least before Roman times). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further, a figure holding out his arms in itself says nothing about death or crucifixion, or a cross or Christ. Acharya's notion reminds me of Tertullian's laughable interpretation of Moses' surveying the Hebrews' (led by Joshua) battle against the Amalekites (Exod.17:8-13), where by standing on a hill and surveying the battle below, Moses (with help from Aaron and Hur) held his hands out to his sides and so caused the Hebrews to prevail. Tertullian claimed that this posture prefigured Christ and the cross, foretelling the cross through which Christ would be victorious over death and bring salvation. (Tertullian, *Against Marcion,* Book 3, Ch. 18.) No one would agree with such kinds of interpretations today. Yet Acharya relies on similarly ignorant/silly statements and wishful thinking by Church Fathers to support her claim.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the past it has sometimes been claimed (e.g., by Wallis Budge, in his Legends of the Gods (1912), see http://sacred-texts.com/egy/leg/leg11.htm (among Egyptologists, Budge is no longer considered reliable)) that, in a myth contained on the Metternich Stela now on exhibit at the Metropolitan Museum in New York, the child Horus is stung by a scorpion (which is Seth's doing), dies from the poison, and is resurrected by Thoth. But I know of no modern reading/translation of this text that has him dying rather than just unconscious and on the brink of death. The Stela's text itself says that &quot;the child was weak beyond answering&quot; and &quot;refused the jar [of drink.&quot; See J.F. Borghouts, *Ancient Egyptian Texts* (1978), p. 63 (in lines 171-74 if the Stela). The scholarly discussions of the text accord with this interpretation. See Nora Scott, &quot;The Metternich Stela,&quot; The Metropolitan Museum of Art Bulletin 9.8:201-17 (1951) (Horus is &quot;unconscious&quot; (p. 213); Scott was Research Fellow in the Egyptian Art Department at the Met); Robert Ritner, *The Mechanics of Ancient Egyptian Magical Practice,* p. 57 n. 266 (1993) (Horus is &quot;injured&quot;);  Geraldine Pinch, *Magic in Ancient Egypt,* pp. 144-45 (1994) (Horus is &quot;too weak and ill to suckle&quot; and that he has a &quot;sickness&quot;); Emily Teeter, *Religion and Ritual in Ancient Egypt,* p. 175 (2011) (Horus was was &quot;cured&quot; by Thoth, which does not seem like a raising from the dead). This interpretation makes sense in terms of the magical spells recited that invoked this myth to cure victims of snakebite, scorpion stings, etc., who are still alive; they are not being brought back from the dead. For this purpose, the recovery of Horus was being used as a parallel example, so it made sense that he too was only on the brink of death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, to put it bluntly, the idea is a load of Horuss**t." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4557" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="984" RevisionGUID="6112549f-2f27-4e04-84ed-9c0fce51afec" CreationDate="2015-07-01T23:31:06.000" UserId="467" Comment="added 79 characters in body" Text="I've heard this claim before and see no evidence for it in any Egyptian texts or iconography. Acharya S is unscholarly, makes many silly mistakes, and thus is unreliable; and Maher's people obviously got his bullet points from the Acharya piece to which you linked in your question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Acharya throws up numerous points hoping that some of them will stick, but they don't. She doesn't cite any Egyptian texts that support her view, which is not surprising because there are none and, I would argue, there can be none. This is because the idea that Horus can be crucified and resurrected is logically precluded by Egypt's mythology and religious thinking. While a person is alive (taking the king as the example), he is Horus. But once you die, you become Osiris and are not Horus, so it can only be Osiris who is resurrected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not having any Egyptian texts to rely upon, Acharya relies on images of Horus with his arms out from his sides, and the idea that the Egyptian ankh and Christ's cross are the same. See [www.stellarhousepublishing.com/washoruscrucified.html](http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/washoruscrucified.html) The ankh sign comes not from a cross but from a sandal strap (see Gardiner sign S34). In Egyptian, the ankh glyph is used to mean &quot;life&quot; as well as for the verb &quot;to live,&quot; but it never is an agency of death; in Egypt no one ever dies on an ankh, much less is crucified on one. There are no such images in the iconography, since crucifixion was not practiced in ancient Egypt (at least before Roman times). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further, a figure holding out his arms in itself says nothing about death or crucifixion, or a cross or Christ. Acharya's notion reminds me of Tertullian's laughable interpretation of Moses' surveying the Hebrews' (led by Joshua) battle against the Amalekites (Exod.17:8-13), where by standing on a hill and surveying the battle below, Moses (with help from Aaron and Hur) held his hands out to his sides and so caused the Hebrews to prevail. Tertullian claimed that this posture prefigured Christ and the cross, foretelling the cross through which Christ would be victorious over death and bring salvation. (Tertullian, *Against Marcion,* Book 3, Ch. 18.) No one would agree with such kinds of interpretations today. Yet Acharya relies on similarly ignorant/silly statements and wishful thinking by Church Fathers to support her claim.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the past it has sometimes been claimed (e.g., by Wallis Budge, in his Legends of the Gods (1912), see http://sacred-texts.com/egy/leg/leg11.htm (among Egyptologists, Budge is no longer considered reliable)) that, in a myth contained on the Metternich Stela now on exhibit at the Metropolitan Museum in New York, the child Horus is stung by a scorpion (which is Seth's doing), dies from the poison, and is resurrected by Thoth. But I know of no modern reading/translation of this text that has him dying rather than just unconscious and on the brink of death. The Stela's text itself says that &quot;the child was weak beyond answering&quot; and &quot;refused the jar [of drink.&quot; See J.F. Borghouts, *Ancient Egyptian Texts* (1978), p. 63 (in lines 171-74 if the Stela). The scholarly discussions of the text accord with this interpretation. See Nora Scott, &quot;The Metternich Stela,&quot; The Metropolitan Museum of Art Bulletin 9.8:201-17 (1951) (Horus is &quot;unconscious&quot; (p. 213); Scott was Research Fellow in the Egyptian Art Department at the Met); John Nunn, Ancient Egyptian Medicine, p. 110 (1996) (Horus is &quot;unconscious&quot;);; Robert Ritner, *The Mechanics of Ancient Egyptian Magical Practice,* p. 57 n. 266 (1993) (Horus is &quot;injured&quot;);  Geraldine Pinch, *Magic in Ancient Egypt,* pp. 144-45 (1994) (Horus is &quot;too weak and ill to suckle&quot; and that he has a &quot;sickness&quot;); Emily Teeter, *Religion and Ritual in Ancient Egypt,* p. 175 (2011) (Horus was was &quot;cured&quot; by Thoth, which does not seem like a raising from the dead). This interpretation makes sense in terms of the magical spells recited that invoked this myth to cure victims of snakebite, scorpion stings, etc., who are still alive; they are not being brought back from the dead. For this purpose, the recovery of Horus was being used as a parallel example, so it made sense that he too was only on the brink of death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, to put it bluntly, the idea is a load of Horuss**t." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4558" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="984" RevisionGUID="be14a023-0409-4005-b7cd-efd00178f4fc" CreationDate="2015-07-02T05:22:05.620" UserId="467" Comment="deleted 9 characters in body" Text="I've heard this claim before and see no evidence for it in any Egyptian texts or iconography. Acharya S is unscholarly, makes many silly mistakes, and thus is unreliable; and Maher's people obviously got his bullet points from the Acharya piece to which you linked in your question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Acharya throws up numerous points hoping that some of them will stick, but they don't. She doesn't cite any Egyptian texts that support her view, which is not surprising because there are none and, I would argue, there can be none. This is because the idea that Horus can be crucified and resurrected is logically precluded by Egypt's mythology and religious thinking. While a person is alive (taking the king as the example), he is Horus. But once you die, you become Osiris and are not Horus, so it can only be Osiris who is resurrected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not having any Egyptian texts to rely upon, Acharya relies on images of Horus with his arms out from his sides, and the idea that the Egyptian ankh and Christ's cross are the same. See [www.stellarhousepublishing.com/washoruscrucified.html](http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/washoruscrucified.html) The ankh sign comes not from a cross but from a sandal strap (see Gardiner sign S34). In Egyptian, the ankh glyph is used to mean &quot;life&quot; as well as for the verb &quot;to live,&quot; but it never is an agency of death; in Egypt no one ever dies on an ankh, much less is crucified on one. There are no such images in the iconography, since crucifixion was not practiced in ancient Egypt (at least before Roman times). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further, a figure holding out his arms in itself says nothing about death or crucifixion, or a cross or Christ. Acharya's notion reminds me of Tertullian's laughable interpretation of Moses' surveying the Hebrews' (led by Joshua) battle against the Amalekites (Exod.17:8-13), where by standing on a hill and surveying the battle below, Moses (with help from Aaron and Hur) held his hands out to his sides and so caused the Hebrews to prevail. Tertullian claimed that this posture prefigured Christ and the cross, foretelling the cross through which Christ would be victorious over death and bring salvation. (Tertullian, *Against Marcion,* Book 3, Ch. 18.) No one would agree with such kinds of interpretations today. Yet Acharya relies on similarly ignorant/silly statements and wishful thinking by Church Fathers to support her claim.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the past it has sometimes been claimed (e.g., by Wallis Budge, in his *Legends of the Gods* (1912), see http://sacred-texts.com/egy/leg/leg11.htm (among Egyptologists, Budge is no longer considered reliable)) that, in a myth contained on the Metternich Stela now on exhibit at the Metropolitan Museum in New York, the child Horus is stung by a scorpion (which is Seth's doing), dies from the poison, and is resurrected by Thoth. But I know of no modern reading/translation of this text that has him dying rather than just unconscious and on the brink of death. The Stela's text itself says that &quot;the child was weak beyond answering,&quot; and &quot;refused the jar [of drink,&quot; which means he is not dead. J.F. Borghouts, *Ancient Egyptian Texts* (1978), p. 63 (in lines 171-74 if the Stela). The scholarly discussions of the text accord with this interpretation. See Nora Scott, &quot;The Metternich Stela,&quot; The Metropolitan Museum of Art Bulletin 9.8:201-17 (1951) (Horus is &quot;unconscious&quot; (p. 213); Scott was Research Fellow in the Egyptian Art Department at the Met); John Nunn, Ancient Egyptian Medicine, p. 110 (1996) (Horus is &quot;unconscious&quot;); Robert Ritner, *The Mechanics of Ancient Egyptian Magical Practice,* p. 57 n. 266 (1993) (Horus is &quot;injured&quot;);  Geraldine Pinch, *Magic in Ancient Egypt,* pp. 144-45 (1994) (Horus is &quot;too weak and ill to suckle&quot; and has a &quot;sickness&quot;); Emily Teeter, *Religion and Ritual in Ancient Egypt,* p. 175 (2011) (Horus was was &quot;cured&quot; by Thoth, which does not seem like a raising from the dead). This interpretation makes sense in terms of the magical spells recited that invoked this myth to cure victims of snakebite, scorpion stings, etc., who are still alive; they are not being brought back from the dead. For this purpose, the recovery of Horus was being used as a parallel example, so it made sense that he too was only on the brink of death. It is like the Billy Crystal scene in *The Princess Bride,* where his character observes that Wesley is &quot;not quite dead.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, to put it bluntly, the idea is a load of Horuss**t." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4559" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="984" RevisionGUID="5210ce09-400c-43ac-b1a5-cdc235194cd3" CreationDate="2015-07-02T05:28:46.317" UserId="467" Comment="added 26 characters in body" Text="I've heard this claim before and see no evidence for it in any Egyptian texts or iconography. Acharya S is unscholarly, makes many silly mistakes, and thus is unreliable; and Maher's people obviously got his bullet points from the Acharya piece to which you linked in your question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Acharya throws up numerous points hoping that some of them will stick, but they don't. She doesn't cite any Egyptian texts that support her view, which is not surprising because there are none and, I would argue, there can be none. This is because the idea that Horus can be crucified and resurrected is logically precluded by Egypt's mythology and religious thinking. While a person is alive (taking the king as the example), he is Horus. But once you die, you become Osiris and are not Horus, so it can only be Osiris who is resurrected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not having any Egyptian texts to rely upon, Acharya relies on images of Horus with his arms out from his sides, and the idea that the Egyptian ankh and Christ's cross are the same. See [www.stellarhousepublishing.com/washoruscrucified.html](http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/washoruscrucified.html) The ankh sign comes not from a cross but from a sandal strap (see Gardiner sign S34). In Egyptian, the ankh glyph is used to mean &quot;life&quot; as well as for the verb &quot;to live,&quot; but it never is an agency of death; in Egypt no one ever dies on an ankh, much less is crucified on one. There are no such images in the iconography, since crucifixion was not practiced in ancient Egypt (at least before Roman times). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further, a figure holding out his arms in itself says nothing about death or crucifixion, or a cross or Christ. Acharya's notion reminds me of Tertullian's laughable interpretation of Moses' surveying the Hebrews' (led by Joshua) battle against the Amalekites (Exod.17:8-13), where by standing on a hill and surveying the battle below, Moses (with help from Aaron and Hur) held his hands out to his sides and so caused the Hebrews to prevail. Tertullian claimed that this posture prefigured Christ and the cross, foretelling the cross through which Christ would be victorious over death and bring salvation. (Tertullian, *Against Marcion,* Book 3, Ch. 18.) No one would agree with such kinds of interpretations today. Yet Acharya relies on similarly ignorant/silly statements and wishful thinking by Church Fathers to support her claim.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the past it has sometimes been claimed (e.g., by Wallis Budge, in his *Legends of the Gods* (1912), see http://sacred-texts.com/egy/leg/leg11.htm (among Egyptologists, Budge is no longer considered reliable)) that, in a myth contained on the Metternich Stela now on exhibit at the Metropolitan Museum in New York, the child Horus is stung by a scorpion (which is Seth's doing), dies from the poison, and is resurrected by Thoth. But I know of no modern reading/translation of this text that has him dying rather than just unconscious and on the brink of death. The Stela's text itself says that &quot;the child was weak beyond answering,&quot; and &quot;refused the jar [of drink,&quot; which means he is not dead. J.F. Borghouts, *Ancient Egyptian Texts* (1978), p. 63 (in lines 171-74 if the Stela). The scholarly discussions of the text accord with this interpretation. See Nora Scott, &quot;The Metternich Stela,&quot; The Metropolitan Museum of Art Bulletin 9.8:201-17 (1951) (Horus is &quot;unconscious&quot; (p. 213); Scott was Research Fellow in the Egyptian Art Department at the Met); John Nunn, Ancient Egyptian Medicine, p. 110 (1996) (Horus is &quot;unconscious&quot;); Robert Ritner, *The Mechanics of Ancient Egyptian Magical Practice,* p. 57 n. 266 (1993) (Horus is &quot;injured&quot;);  Geraldine Pinch, *Magic in Ancient Egypt,* pp. 144-45 (1994) (Horus is &quot;too weak and ill to suckle&quot; and has a &quot;sickness&quot;); Emily Teeter, *Religion and Ritual in Ancient Egypt,* p. 175 (2011) (Horus was was &quot;cured&quot; by Thoth, which does not seem like a raising from the dead). This interpretation makes sense in terms of the magical spells recited that invoked this myth to cure victims of snakebite, scorpion stings, etc., who are still alive; they are not being brought back from the dead. For this purpose, the recovery of Horus was being used as a parallel example, so it made sense that he too was only on the brink of death. It is like the Billy Crystal scene in *The Princess Bride,* where his character observes that Wesley is &quot;not quite dead,&quot; and then brings him back.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, to put it bluntly, the idea is a load of Horuss**t." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4560" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="984" RevisionGUID="5cd5cdb9-a95c-4b5a-8a0c-ecaa58b2fafe" CreationDate="2015-07-02T05:34:52.820" UserId="467" Comment="added 25 characters in body" Text="I've heard this claim before and see no evidence for it in any Egyptian texts or iconography. Acharya S is unscholarly, makes many silly mistakes, and thus is unreliable; and Maher's people obviously got his bullet points from the Acharya piece to which you linked in your question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Acharya throws up numerous points hoping that some of them will stick, but they don't. She doesn't cite any Egyptian texts that support her view, which is not surprising because there are none and, I would argue, there can be none. This is because the idea that Horus can be crucified and resurrected is logically precluded by Egypt's mythology and religious thinking. While a person is alive (taking the king as the example), he is Horus. But once you die, you become Osiris and are not Horus, so it can only be Osiris who is resurrected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not having any Egyptian texts to rely upon, Acharya relies on images of Horus with his arms out from his sides, and the idea that the Egyptian ankh and Christ's cross are the same. See [www.stellarhousepublishing.com/washoruscrucified.html](http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/washoruscrucified.html) The ankh sign comes not from a cross but from a sandal strap (see Gardiner sign S34). In Egyptian, the ankh glyph is used to mean &quot;life&quot; as well as for the verb &quot;to live,&quot; but it never is an agency of death; in Egypt no one ever dies on an ankh, much less is crucified on one. There are no such images in the iconography, since crucifixion was not practiced in ancient Egypt (at least before Roman times). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further, a figure holding out his arms in itself says nothing about death or crucifixion, or a cross or Christ. Acharya's notion reminds me of Tertullian's laughable interpretation of Moses' surveying the Hebrews' (led by Joshua) battle against the Amalekites (Exod.17:8-13), where by standing on a hill and surveying the battle below, Moses (with help from Aaron and Hur) held his hands out to his sides and so caused the Hebrews to prevail. Tertullian claimed that this posture prefigured Christ and the cross, foretelling the cross through which Christ would be victorious over death and bring salvation. (Tertullian, *Against Marcion,* Book 3, Ch. 18.) No one would agree with such kinds of interpretations today. Yet Acharya relies on similarly ignorant/silly statements and wishful thinking by Church Fathers to support her claim.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the past it has sometimes been claimed (e.g., by Wallis Budge, in his *Legends of the Gods* (1912), see http://sacred-texts.com/egy/leg/leg11.htm (among Egyptologists, Budge is no longer considered reliable)) that, in a myth recited on the Metternich Stela now on exhibit at the Metropolitan Museum in New York, the child Horus is stung by a scorpion (which is Seth's doing), dies from the poison, and is resurrected by Thoth. But I know of no modern reading/translation of this text that has him dying rather than just unconscious and on the brink of death. The Stela's text itself says that &quot;the child was weak beyond answering,&quot; and &quot;refused the jar [of drink,&quot; which means he is not dead. J.F. Borghouts, *Ancient Egyptian Texts* (1978), p. 63 (in lines 171-74 if the Stela). The scholarly discussions of the text accord with this interpretation. See Nora Scott, &quot;The Metternich Stela,&quot; The Metropolitan Museum of Art Bulletin 9.8:201-17 (1951) (Horus is &quot;unconscious&quot; (p. 213); Scott was Research Fellow in the Egyptian Art Department at the Met); John Nunn, Ancient Egyptian Medicine, p. 110 (1996) (Horus is &quot;unconscious&quot;); Robert Ritner, *The Mechanics of Ancient Egyptian Magical Practice,* p. 57 n. 266 (1993) (Horus is &quot;injured&quot;);  Geraldine Pinch, *Magic in Ancient Egypt,* pp. 144-45 (1994) (Horus is &quot;too weak and ill to suckle&quot; and has a &quot;sickness&quot;); Emily Teeter, *Religion and Ritual in Ancient Egypt,* p. 175 (2011) (Horus was was &quot;cured&quot; by Thoth, which does not seem like a raising from the dead). This interpretation makes sense in terms of the magical spells recited that invoked this myth to cure victims of snakebite, scorpion stings, etc., who are still alive; they are not being brought back from the dead. For this purpose, the recovery of Horus was being used as a parallel example, so it made sense that he too was only on the brink of death. It is like the Billy Crystal scene in *The Princess Bride,* where his character Miracle Max observes that Wesley is &quot;only mostly dead,&quot; and then proceeds to bring him back.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, to put it bluntly, the idea is a load of Horuss**t." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4561" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="984" RevisionGUID="8c5f809e-eb9c-44e6-9c2b-2006171d3b26" CreationDate="2015-07-02T05:43:18.083" UserId="467" Comment="added 11 characters in body" Text="I've heard this claim before and see no evidence for it in any Egyptian texts or iconography. Acharya S is unscholarly, makes many silly mistakes, and thus is unreliable; and Maher's people obviously got his bullet points from the Acharya piece to which you linked in your question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Acharya throws up numerous points hoping that some of them will stick, but they don't. She doesn't cite any Egyptian texts that support her view, which is not surprising because there are none and, I would argue, there can be none. This is because the idea that Horus can be crucified and resurrected is logically precluded by Egypt's mythology and religious thinking. While a person is alive (taking the king as the example), he is Horus. But once you die, you become Osiris and are not Horus, so it can only be Osiris who is resurrected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not having any Egyptian texts to rely upon, Acharya relies on images of Horus with his arms out from his sides, and the idea that the Egyptian ankh and Christ's cross are the same. See [www.stellarhousepublishing.com/washoruscrucified.html](http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/washoruscrucified.html) The ankh sign comes not from a cross but from a sandal strap (see Gardiner sign S34). In Egyptian, the ankh glyph is used to mean &quot;life&quot; as well as for the verb &quot;to live,&quot; but it never is an agency of death; in Egypt no one ever dies on an ankh, much less is crucified on one. There are no such images in the iconography, since crucifixion was not practiced in ancient Egypt (at least before Roman times). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further, a figure holding out his arms in itself says nothing about death or crucifixion, or a cross or Christ. Acharya's notion reminds me of Tertullian's laughable interpretation of Moses' surveying the Hebrews' (led by Joshua) battle against the Amalekites (Exod.17:8-13), where by standing on a hill and surveying the battle below, Moses (with help from Aaron and Hur) held his hands out to his sides and so caused the Hebrews to prevail. Tertullian claimed that this posture prefigured Christ and the cross, foretelling the cross through which Christ would be victorious over death and bring salvation. (Tertullian, *Against Marcion,* Book 3, Ch. 18.) No one would agree with such kinds of interpretations today. Yet Acharya relies on similarly ignorant/silly statements and wishful thinking by Church Fathers to support her claim.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the past it has sometimes been claimed (e.g., by Wallis Budge, in his *Legends of the Gods* (1912), see http://sacred-texts.com/egy/leg/leg11.htm (among Egyptologists, Budge is no longer considered reliable)) that, in a myth recited on the Metternich Stela now on exhibit at the Metropolitan Museum in New York, the child Horus is stung by a scorpion (which is Seth's doing), dies from the poison, and is resurrected by Thoth. But I know of no modern reading/translation of this text that has him dying rather than just unconscious and on the brink of death. The Stela's text itself says that &quot;the child was weak beyond answering,&quot; and &quot;refused the jar [of drink],&quot; which obviously means he is not dead. J.F. Borghouts, *Ancient Egyptian Texts* (1978), p. 63 (in lines 171-74 if the Stela). The scholarly discussions of the text accord with this interpretation. See Nora Scott, &quot;The Metternich Stela,&quot; The Metropolitan Museum of Art Bulletin 9.8:201-17 (1951) (Horus is &quot;unconscious&quot; (p. 213); Scott was Research Fellow in the Egyptian Art Department at the Met); John Nunn, Ancient Egyptian Medicine, p. 110 (1996) (Horus is &quot;unconscious&quot;); Robert Ritner, *The Mechanics of Ancient Egyptian Magical Practice,* p. 57 n. 266 (1993) (Horus is &quot;injured&quot;);  Geraldine Pinch, *Magic in Ancient Egypt,* pp. 144-45 (1994) (Horus is &quot;too weak and ill to suckle&quot; and has a &quot;sickness&quot;); Emily Teeter, *Religion and Ritual in Ancient Egypt,* p. 175 (2011) (Horus was was &quot;cured&quot; by Thoth, which does not seem like a raising from the dead). This interpretation makes sense in terms of the magical spells recited that invoked this myth to cure victims of snakebite, scorpion stings, etc., who are still alive; they are not being brought back from the dead. For this purpose, the recovery of Horus was being used as a parallel example, so it made sense that he too was only on the brink of death. It is like the Billy Crystal scene in *The Princess Bride,* where his character Miracle Max observes that Wesley is &quot;only mostly dead,&quot; and then proceeds to bring him back.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, to put it bluntly, the idea is a load of Horuss**t." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4562" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="974" RevisionGUID="556621a7-1e67-4523-bcb5-b6edad84e22e" CreationDate="2015-07-02T14:57:34.027" UserId="-1" Comment="added forgotten link" Text="I've delayed answering this question because I've been looking for an explanation of the symbolism behind the complicated manner of Lleu's death. I still haven't a satisfactory explanation from a reputable source, although I'm sure one exists, so this answer is incomplete. However, I think I've answered most of the original question, and I've taken a stab at the symbolism question. If anyone has any additional research, please let me know.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Why Lleu is so difficult to kill?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This story is a *heavily modified* version of the &quot;Tristan and Iseult&quot; archetype, in that there exists a king or ruler or giant who will die when their daughter is married. The ruler attempts to prevent his daughter from being married, but of course she eventually circumvents the ruler and get's married anyway, at which point the ruler dies. This story relates to death but also to rebirth; although the ruler dies, because the daughter marries the ruler's legacy continues, and the husband or son of the daughter replaces the ruler in the mortal world. (A slightly different version also exists: a prophesy says the ruler will die if he has a son, the ruler attempts to not have a son, he has a son anyway, and the son kills his father and takes his father's place.) Of the top of my head, [Perseus][1], [Tristian and Iseult][2], and [Culhwch and Olwen][3] are all examples of this type of story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To quote from [Roger Loomis' review of Math Vab Mathonwy, An Inquiry into the Origins and Development of the Fourth Branch of the Mabingogi][4] (I didn't want to read the entire book):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The chief discovery is the ultimate dependence of Math upon the Irish myth of Balor and Lug for its main outline (pp.  65-112).  Significant is the fact that this myth, surviving most clearly in folktales taken down in the nineteenth century, must have supplied the framework for a story composed as early as the twelfth century.  It is a variant of the widespread formula of the King and His Prophesied Death (pp.  8, 366),2 of which the Perseus and Oedipus stories furnish familiar examples.  The plot of the famous Irish story may be reconstructed as follows.  Balor, learning of a prophecy that he would be slain by his daughter's son, to be named Lug Lamfada, with a particular spear, on Lug's wedding night, sought to prevent this con- summation.  First he imprisoned his daughter, but a certain Cian gained access to her, and she bore a son.  Balor then tried to have his grandson drowned, but in vain.  When he learned of his failure, he put successively three geasa on the boy: never to receive a name except from himself, never to bear arms, and never to wed earthly wife (pp.  102-106).  But Lug circumvented all these barriers and finally fulfilled his destiny by slaying Balor in the manner prescribed.  Now the Welsh tale is remarkable in that it preserves practically every essential feature of this outline in the right order, but every feature has been recast several times, and all the original cohesion and rationale has been lost.  Math is at pains to preserve the virginity of a damsel, but no reason is offered and the damsel is not his daughter.  The damsel is ravished by stratagem, but nothing is said of her son.  Instead, the woman who takes her place gives birth to a son, Dylan, and he promptly goes to the sea and, instead of drowning, swims like a fish.  But it is not he who becomes the hero of the story but one who develops from the caul or placenta which Dylan's mother lets fall at the time of his birth.  This caul develops into a second child, and upon him are sworn successively the three geasa that were sworn upon Lug: but it is his mother who swears them, and she obviously has no motive.  The way in which she is induced to name him Lleu Llaw Gyffes is obviously reminiscent of the way in which Balor was induced to name his grandson Lug Lamfada.  **Finally, it is not Lleu's grandfather who is slain by a special spear, but Lleu's rival, Gronwy**.  Except that the order remains intact, the elements could hardly have been juggled more drastically.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A common feature in these types of stories is that the father-figure is very difficult to kill. Here's an example from Culhwch and Olwen, a story from the same tradition as Math. (The story of Balor and Lug, upon which Math is based upon, also includes a father figure who is hard to kill).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And the third day they returned to the palace. And Yspaddaden Penkawr said to them, &quot;Shoot not at me again unless you desire death. Where are my attendants? Lift up the forks of my eyebrows which have fallen over my eyeballs, that I may see the fashion of my son-in-law.&quot; Then they arose, and, as they did so, Yspaddaden Penkawr took the third poisoned dart and cast it at them. And Kilhwch caught it and threw it vigorously, and wounded him through the eyeball, so that the dart came out at the back of his head. &quot;A cursed ungentle son-in-law, truly! As long as I remain alive, my eyesight will be the worse. Whenever I go against the wind, my eyes will water; and peradventure my head will burn, and I shall have a giddiness every new moon. Cursed be the fire in which it was forged. Like the bite of a mad dog is the stroke of this poisoned iron.&quot; And they went to meat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since Lleu takes the role of the father figure in this rearranged story, it also makes sense that he is hard to kill.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# An attempted explanation of the symbolism behind Lleu's position:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's important to know that Lleu seems to be associated with the sun. According to [Queen of the Night: Rediscovering the Celtic Moon Goddess][5]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the Mabinogi, Lleu Llaw Gyffes (Bright One of the Skillful Hand) is transformed into an eagle, residing for a period of time in the top of an oak tree. The eagle and the oak are symbols of a solar or celestial deity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found an article that [claims that the position that Lleu can be killed corresponds to something related to astronomy][100] (the hut to the sky, the tub/well to the milky way, the goat represents Capella, and Lleu to the constellation Perseus [Perseus seems to have a foot in the milkyway]). The article seems legit, and is definitely worth considering, but I worry that it doesn't seem to be verified by any academics. Here's a picture of the constellation Perseus (from [AstroPixels.com][7]):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![The constellation Perseus](http://astropixels.com/constellations/charts/images/Per_map.jpg)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another explanation (found in an article about Shakespeare!) ties the age of the spear to the creation of a new year (and perhaps to rebirth):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Blodeuwedd and her lover planned to slay her husband, the Welsh hero Lleu Llaw Gyffes; but he could only be killed by a spear forged &quot;in a year of Sundays&quot;; and so Lleu was struck down exactly one year after the plan was conceived. The death of the year equated the death of the husband; either event signals or is signaled by the Queen's or Lady's attachment to another man.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Aguirre, Manuel. [Life, Crown, and Queen: Gertrude and the Theme of Sovereignty][8].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And as a bonus, here's an article that elaborates on the connection between names, transformations, and the difference between Lleu's and Blodeuwedd's metamorphoses:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The metamorphoses of Lleu and Blodeu(w)edd confirm the theory that, in the Fourth Branch, names function to secure both body and identity. The scene in which Lleu spontaneously transforms into an eagle and the earlier scene in which he is named are linked in such a way that his name emerges as a crucial guarantee of human embodiment; by contrast, Blodeu(w)edd is renamed so that her metamorphosis can never be undone.  Having persuaded her husband, Lleu, to reveal how he may be killed, Blodeu(w)edd has Gronw ambush Lleu while he is demonstrating to his wife exactly the point at which he is at his most vulnerable. Gronw’s ambush prompts Lleu’s transformation: “Then Gronw rose up from the hill that is called Brynn Cyfergyr, and he got up on the end of one knee, and cast the poison-spear, and hit [Lleu] in the side, so that the spear shaft leapt from him and the head stayed in him. And then he went flying up in the shape of an eagle, and gave a terrible cry” (Williams 1951, 88). Although the text gives more details about the spear thrust than the metamorphosis, Lleu’s transformation clearly results from the entry of the spearhead into his body. This passage mirrors the episode in which the young Lleu is named. In this scene, disguised, Gwydion brings the boy to visit Aranrhod; when Aranrhod sees the boy hit a wren with surprising precision and comments on his dexterity, saying, “it is with a skilful hand Lleu can be killed only by a single blow from a spear made only during Sunday mass over the course of one year, and he must be neither inside nor outside, neither on horseback nor on foot; the inventive solution to this riddle involves Lleu’s standing with one foot on the edge of a roofed outdoor bathtub, the other on the back of a goat. The actions in both scenes are also described by identical verbs, bwrw (to throw, cast) and medru (to strike). Sheehan that the fair one hit it [ Ys llaw gyffes y medrwys y lleu ef ]” (Williams 1951, 80), Gwydion manipulates her comment to provide a name for his nephew, Lleu Llaw Gyffes (Fair-haired One of the Skilful Hand). Lleu’s name is also the key to his metamorphosis’s reversal. When Gwydion finds the eagle perched in a treetop, he sings three englynion , each time naming Lleu, until the eagle descends from the tree and alights on Gwydion’s knee; Gwydion is then able to strike him with the hutlath “so that he was in his own shape [ rith ]” (Williams 1951, 90). Lleu’s metamorphosis is consistent with those examined above, in that the narrator does not refer to Lleu by name until he is again in his own, human body. Lleu cannot regain his body until he regains his name: it is Gwydion’s ritualized poetic naming of his nephew together with a tap of the hutlath that restores Lleu to human form. Gronw’s skillful striking of Lleu causes Lleu to lose both name and form by reversing the subject positions (active/passive, striker/struck) of the scenario whereby he gained his name&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Sheehan, Sarah, [Matrilineal Subjects: Ambiguity, Bodies, and Metamorphosis in the Fourth Branch of the Mabinogi][9])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseus&#xD;&#xA;[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan_and_Iseult&#xD;&#xA;[3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culhwch_and_Olwen&#xD;&#xA;[4]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/2847153&#xD;&#xA;[5]: https://books.google.com/books?id=1l1yXq4xGHsC&amp;pg=PA153&amp;lpg=PA153&amp;dq=lleu+llaw+gyffes+eagle+symbolism&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=JFo9N9d_Hh&amp;sig=ejmr1zvfmO7oQcar6g4KWDbQjcQ&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=_xmKVcmTGsn2ggSS9IGADA&amp;ved=0CDIQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&amp;q=lleu%20llaw%20gyffes%20eagle%20symbolism&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;[6]: http://mabinogionastronomy.blogspot.com/2015/04/thedeath-of-lleu-llaw-gyffes-here-is.html&#xD;&#xA;[7]: http://astropixels.com/&#xD;&#xA;[8]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/518100&#xD;&#xA;[9]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/591089&#xD;&#xA;[100]: http://mabinogionastronomy.blogspot.com/2015/04/thedeath-of-lleu-llaw-gyffes-here-is.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4563" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="974" RevisionGUID="556621a7-1e67-4523-bcb5-b6edad84e22e" CreationDate="2015-07-02T14:57:34.027" Comment="Proposed by anonymous approved by 62 edit id of 216" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4564" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="988" RevisionGUID="eaf4e99b-b69c-46dd-98d4-6c1bf6cca4ef" CreationDate="2015-07-02T15:13:56.677" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="Ixion is punished for loving Hera by being tied to a wheel that travels through the sky:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ixion fell in love with Hera and attempted to force her; and when Hera reported it, Zeus, wishing to know if the thing were so, made a cloud in the likeness of Hera and laid it beside him; and when Ixion boasted that he had enjoyed the favours of Hera, Zeus bound him to a wheel, on which he is whirled by winds through the air; such is the penalty he pays. And the cloud, impregnated by Ixion, gave birth to Centaurus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0022:text=Epitome:book=E:chapter=1&amp;highlight=ixion)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They say that by the commands of the gods Ixion spins round and round on his feathered wheel, saying this to mortals: “Repay your benefactor frequently with gentle favors in return.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0162:book=P.:poem=2&amp;highlight=ixion)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question is simple: what is the symbolism/meaning behind tying Ixion to a wheel? Why is that his punishment for rape?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4565" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="988" RevisionGUID="eaf4e99b-b69c-46dd-98d4-6c1bf6cca4ef" CreationDate="2015-07-02T15:13:56.677" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="Symbolism of Ixion's Punishment" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4566" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="988" RevisionGUID="eaf4e99b-b69c-46dd-98d4-6c1bf6cca4ef" CreationDate="2015-07-02T15:13:56.677" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4567" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="989" RevisionGUID="16b9f3e2-2d78-4a79-9523-68db63f28e96" CreationDate="2015-07-02T15:45:09.230" UserId="151" Text="&gt; on which he is whirled by winds through the air; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; In the greek wikipedia he is  turning around  tied with snakes  on a burning  wheel in Tartarus, which is a punishment place entered through some caves .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Perseus one finds the following quote in an article on [Apollodorus][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to some, the wheel of Ixion was fiery （Scholiast on Eur. Ph. 1185）; according to the Vatican Mythographer it was entwined with snakes. The fiery aspect of the wheel is supported by vase paintings. From this and other evidence Mr. A. B. Cook argues that the flaming wheel launched through the air is a mythical expression for the Sun, and that Ixion himself “typifies a whole series of human Ixions who in bygone ages were done to death as effete embodiments of the sungod.”  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is some possible symbolism as the sun wheel is found in several mythologies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why this punishment? Greek mythology is full of horrible punishments for hubris, see what happened to Prometheus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0022:text=Epitome:book=E:chapter=1&amp;highlight=ixion" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4568" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="990" RevisionGUID="1baa0b47-cc6a-4a31-b0c5-b37f9d8f850e" CreationDate="2015-07-02T22:39:45.190" UserId="131" Text="Being bound to a cartwheel and then having your limbs broken was one of the more painful methods of execution in antiquity ([Breaking wheel][1]), and as such often used for rapists. Whether Ixion was battered after being tied is not clear, but it would certainly have come to the mind of ancient audiences.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaking_wheel" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4570" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="989" RevisionGUID="b66a32de-4dd9-44ff-8034-2c0e70c3bb08" CreationDate="2015-07-03T04:29:08.097" UserId="151" Comment="addition after comment" Text="&gt; on which he is whirled by winds through the air; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; In the greek wikipedia he is  turning around  tied with snakes  on a burning  wheel in Tartarus, which is a punishment place entered through some caves .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Perseus one finds the following quote in an article on [Apollodorus][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to some, the wheel of Ixion was fiery （Scholiast on Eur. Ph. 1185）; according to the Vatican Mythographer it was entwined with snakes. The fiery aspect of the wheel is supported by vase paintings. From this and other evidence Mr. A. B. Cook argues that the flaming wheel launched through the air is a mythical expression for the Sun, and that Ixion himself “typifies a whole series of human Ixions who in bygone ages were done to death as effete embodiments of the sungod.”  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is some possible symbolism as the sun wheel is found in several mythologies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why this punishment? Greek mythology is full of horrible punishments for hubris, see what happened to Prometheus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the book Zeus: [A Study in Ancient Religion, Volume 3, Part 2, A,B.Cook][2]  I screen captured the amphora depicting the torture of Ixion&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The light  source is definitely sun like, reflections in the water. The wheel is on fire, but not with the strong light of the sun. It could be the  artist is thinking &quot;close enough to the sun to burn to a crisp forever&quot;.  As the modern wish &quot;may you burn in hell&quot; . It is consistent with the Ikaros myth ( the closer to the sun the more heat) .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0022:text=Epitome:book=E:chapter=1&amp;highlight=ixion&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.gr/books?id=gUZo7Qz6H5AC&amp;pg=PA1072&amp;lpg=PA1072&amp;dq=Ixion%20and%20A.B.Cook&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=4p1Q1M1S2A&amp;sig=oqsa73TaxPNkbovlKmLEw4vJpx8&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=QwuWVbbeHYX7UsuFkZAO&amp;ved=0CCMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&amp;q=Ixion%20and%20A.B.Cook&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/mX77y.png&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/l9sdw.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4571" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="992" RevisionGUID="8984446f-4b1a-48e7-8b75-ba668edd2c3c" CreationDate="2015-07-03T04:31:58.010" UserId="398" Text="So, there are a couple things at play here. As Anna V. noted, he likely represents the sun. Besides the flaming wheel in the sky, a cult title of Apollo is Ixios, apparently from the city of Ixiae, but perhaps also related to Ixion here. However, Apollo and Helios (i.e. the sun) were not originally the same deity, and so the connection there is intriguing but uncertain. Moreover, the name defies attempts at etymology, although the [LSJ suggests](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=%CE%99%CE%BE%CE%AF%CF%89%CE%BD&amp;la=greek#lexicon) a possibility with ἱκέτης (_hiketēs_), meaning &quot;suppliant.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other ideas for Ixion put forth are related to clouds. Since Ixion laid with a cloud thinking it was Hera, some, such as Martin Nilsson, have speculated that instead of a sun, he was some figure for making it rain. Nilsson also points out that this cloud was connected with Nephele (which is merely Greek for &quot;cloud&quot;) in the Argonaut story, where she saves Phrixus and Helle by sending them a ram with golden fleece.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ixion also must be of extreme antiquity and likely connected to Märchen, as he is completely divorced from any of the major lineages.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are parallels for him, though. Besides &quot;the sun&quot; or &quot;rain clouds&quot;, he is one of the major offenders against the order of Zeus' universe, such as Sisyphus, Tantalus, Asclepius, Atlas, Prometheus, and later Iapetus' two other sons Menoetius and Epimetheus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sisyphus might be the closest parallel to Ixion, as one who rolls a rock up the hill and lets it fall back down parallels the rising and fall of the sun, but other interpretations are possible, such as the waves, the tides, the moon even. His sin was to hold death hostage so that no one could die.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tantalus' crime I outlined [here](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/598/was-there-a-significant-transformation-of-the-heracles-mythos-from-homeric-times/970#970). I do not know what the pool of water below and fruit trees above him mean. It is interesting to note that Pindar thinks his crime was stealing ambrosia (and thus attempting immortality), which parallels not only Sisyphus' crime above, but also Asclepius', who with his medicine could raise the dead. Asclepius wasn't punished in Hades, but outright zapped by lightning ([Pindar, *Pythian* 3](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0162%3Abook%3DP.%3Apoem%3D3)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Their crime however probably reflect Pindar's preoccupation with the hubris of his clientele. After winning fame and glory (kleos is the key word here) in athletic games, they might have developed a big head, and Pindar, suggests Crotty, Kurke, and Nicholson, might have added a tender caution in his praise.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Atlas and Prometheus are both tied in some way to mountains (Prometheus literally), with Atlas at the western edge of the world (the Atlas Mountains in Morocco) and Prometheus in the eastern edge (the Caucasus Mountains).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod picked up on this and schematized it, making Atlas, Prometheus, Epimetheus, and Menoetius (though a titan, the name is human, and is shared with Patroclus' father in the _Iliad_, e.g. [16.14](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0133%3Abook%3D16%3Acard%3D1)), all of which committed some injustice against Zeus which characterizes human condition. Menoetius was full of hubris, and thus Zeus struck him with a thunderbolt. Epimetheus (&quot;afterthought&quot;, based on his brother Prometheus, &quot;forethought&quot;) of course received Pandora, the first woman and the one who unleashed evils on humankind. (Hesiod, *[Theogony](http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm)* 507–558 and *[Works &amp; Days](http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/works.htm)* 69–105)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Clay, J. S. 2003. _Hesiod's Cosmos_. Cambridge.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Crotty, K. 1982. *Song and Action: The Victory Odes of Pindar*. Baltimore.&#xD;&#xA;s&#xD;&#xA;Gantz, T. 1993. *Early Greek Myth: A Guide to Literary and Artistic Source*. Baltimore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kurke, L. 1991. *Traffic in Praise: Pindar and the Poetics of Social Economy*. Berkeley.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nicholson, N. 2005. *Aristocracy and Athletics in Archaic and Classical Greece*. Cambridge.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nilsson, N. *The Mycenaean Origin of Greek Mythology.* Berkeley." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4572" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="989" RevisionGUID="ba2d0b34-3c61-4c9a-8c11-544fae456fdd" CreationDate="2015-07-03T11:12:16.787" UserId="151" Comment="added 1623 characters in body" Text="&gt; on which he is whirled by winds through the air; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; In the greek wikipedia he is  turning around  tied with snakes  on a burning  wheel in Tartarus, which is a punishment place entered through some caves .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Perseus one finds the following quote in an article on [Apollodorus][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to some, the wheel of Ixion was fiery （Scholiast on Eur. Ph. 1185）; according to the Vatican Mythographer it was entwined with snakes. The fiery aspect of the wheel is supported by vase paintings. From this and other evidence Mr. A. B. Cook argues that the flaming wheel launched through the air is a mythical expression for the Sun, and that Ixion himself “typifies a whole series of human Ixions who in bygone ages were done to death as effete embodiments of the sungod.”  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is some possible symbolism as the sun wheel is found in several mythologies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why this punishment? Greek mythology is full of horrible punishments for hubris, see what happened to Prometheus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the book Zeus: [A Study in Ancient Religion, Volume 3, Part 2, A,B.Cook][2]  I screen captured the amphora depicting the torture of Ixion&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The light  source is definitely sun like, reflections in the water. The wheel is on fire, but not with the strong light of the sun. It could be the  artist is thinking &quot;close enough to the sun to burn to a crisp forever&quot;.  As the modern wish &quot;may you burn in hell&quot; . It is consistent with the Ikaros myth ( the closer to the sun the more heat) .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Looking at [the link you provided][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Another solar-fire ritual was to roll a flaming wheel down a hill and into a river or lake at the bottom, if there was one. The wheel symbolized the wheel (circle) of the seasons, as well as the sun-disk. The sun as a  wheel is an ancient symbol, often depicted in the form of a wheeled chariot being driven across the sky; the swastika is another version of the sun-wheel in motion. In this ritual, the wheel was stuffed with straw or hay (the yellowish color of which resembled the sun) so that the wheel itself was barely visible, and in many cases an axle protruded a meter or so on each side, which people used to guide it down the hill. The idea was for it to roll all the way to the bottom, into the water if any; if it did not roll all the way down, the harvest would be bad&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![flaming wheel][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the lower amphora image, on the right , there is an extension and it looks as if the &quot;nymph&quot;? is sitting on it, and it does look like the axle in the third picture. (On the summer solstice there exists still a pagan ritual with fire in Greece. Fires are lit in the evening  of the 24th of June and the people jump through it. It happened in the neighborhoods of Athens when I was growing up).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A possibility exists that the rolling wheel ending up  in the water was a ritual in the area ,  as described above, and Ixion was tied up to the wheel in the myth on a preexisting symbol  so that he would burn as a punishment. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0022:text=Epitome:book=E:chapter=1&amp;highlight=ixion&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.gr/books?id=gUZo7Qz6H5AC&amp;pg=PA1072&amp;lpg=PA1072&amp;dq=Ixion%20and%20A.B.Cook&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=4p1Q1M1S2A&amp;sig=oqsa73TaxPNkbovlKmLEw4vJpx8&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=QwuWVbbeHYX7UsuFkZAO&amp;ved=0CCMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&amp;q=Ixion%20and%20A.B.Cook&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/mX77y.png&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/l9sdw.png&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://mythologymatters.wordpress.com/2015/06/19/summer-solstice-mythology-midsummer-night/&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/1tb0M.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4573" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="988" RevisionGUID="a176a92e-522e-4c98-aa11-e0149dba267b" CreationDate="2015-07-03T15:41:49.983" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="urls look ugly" Text="Ixion is punished for loving Hera by being tied to a wheel that travels through the sky:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ixion fell in love with Hera and attempted to force her; and when Hera reported it, Zeus, wishing to know if the thing were so, made a cloud in the likeness of Hera and laid it beside him; and when Ixion boasted that he had enjoyed the favours of Hera, Zeus bound him to a wheel, on which he is whirled by winds through the air; such is the penalty he pays. And the cloud, impregnated by Ixion, gave birth to Centaurus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Epitome by Appollodorus](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0022:text=Epitome:book=E:chapter=1&amp;highlight=ixion))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They say that by the commands of the gods Ixion spins round and round on his feathered wheel, saying this to mortals: “Repay your benefactor frequently with gentle favors in return.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Pythian by Pindar](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0162:book=P.:poem=2&amp;highlight=ixion))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question is simple: what is the symbolism/meaning behind tying Ixion to a wheel? Why is that his punishment for rape?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4576" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="993" RevisionGUID="e7f75263-e7e5-466f-a7ad-33d44a3d1190" CreationDate="2015-07-04T03:18:17.560" UserId="467" Text="Since the questioner, Christofian, said that his inquiry was inspired by my blog post that featured a fiery wheel (see above) and since Anna quoted from my post and showed my photo of that wheel, I figure that I'd better address his question! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A wheel, especially a spoked one in the sky as in this case, is of course commonly a symbol of the sun. In this connection, Kerenyi in his *The Gods of the Greeks* (pp. 159-60) penned a conclusory statement, &quot;One can easily recognise in the whole story the punishment of an older, savage sun-god who had to had to be tamed beneath the rule of Zeus.&quot; This might be the case since Zeus was in the business of absorbing other deities and their functions, but Kerenyi points to no sources or other grounds for this conclusion. The article that Anna quotes in her answer above, which relies on Cook's *Zeus,* takes the same view. There is indeed significant iconography showing the wheel to be flaming (just search on Google for Ixion images), so this image appears to have been popular. On the other hand, Robert Graves (*Greek Myths,* 63.1-2) goes off in another direction showing echoes of Frazer, claiming that Ixion was an oak-king who married a moon-goddess (Dia), and was then slain in a ritual involving him being spread-eagled on a tree, which was later made into a wheel. He also claims that old kings called themselves Zeus and their marriage to the moon-goddess displeased the later Olympian priests, hence the hubris theme leading to the punishment. Graves also links Ixion's name to vegetation, not anything solar. So no solar motif for Graves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Turning to the actual sources, from what I see they don't seem to be stressing a solar theme. Although the *Scholiast* on Pindar's Pythians mentions that the wheel was fiery, Pindar himself (Pythian Ode 2.39-44), as well as Hyginus (*Fabulae* 62), Diodorus (*Historical Library* 4.69.5), Apollodorus (*Library,* Epit. 1.20), Virgil (*Georgics* 4.484; *Aeneid* 6.601), and Lucian (*Dialogues of the Gods* VI) never mention fire, and they just mention the wheel spinning/whirling, not necessarily going across the sky (although that could be the case), and that the wheel turns due to the force of the winds (not its own power, as sun-gods do). To my mind, this, plus the fact that some later sources (Hyginus; Virgil, *Aeneid*; Lucian) felt comfortable placing the wheel in Hades rather than in the sky suggests that a solar symbolism of the wheel is not the main point here, at least as the story appears in these later stories which differ from the versions that Kerenyi and Cook were talking about. Thus, but Kerenyi and Cook could be right and we may just be seeing later versions that mask the original, apples vs. oranges to some extent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Based on what we do have for sources, for these authors the wheel and its spinning appear to symbolize primarily the passage of time into eternity, showing that Ixion's punishment is for eternity. Most of the sources (Pindar, Diodorus, Hyginus, and Lucian) stress that the wheel is supposed to turn for eternity. This has a rough parallel in the Punishment of Prometheus for his act of hubris, which likewise was supposed to be eternal. Finally, Pindar mentions that the wheel has 4 spokes, which normally symbolizes dividing the passage of time measures (seasons), which are endless cycles. That is, the hub, which appears not to move, represents eternity, while the outer part with the spokes moving represents time passing. See, e.g., *The Book of Symbols,* A. Ronnberg, ed., p. 504.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't think the wheel here has anything to do with the earthly punishment of being broken on the wheel. In that punishment, the victim dies within 1-3 days, whereas Ixion's punishment is eternal and none of the accounts has him dying. None of the accounts has him being broken or otherwise physically abused while on the wheel; except, of course, for the eternal flames in any versions of the story which have fire on the wheel, but that is very different from being broken on the wheel. Finally, based on my prior research, I don't recall this form of punishment being used in the ancient world. (I didn't research this point here since it was not mentioned in your original question, and was raised only in another answer above.)&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4577" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="993" RevisionGUID="832aa9ed-7155-47c3-8840-acc4cd20fc20" CreationDate="2015-07-04T03:43:18.160" UserId="467" Comment="added 5 characters in body" Text="Since the questioner, Christofian, said that his inquiry was inspired by my blog post that featured a fiery wheel (see above) and since Anna quoted from my post and showed my photo of that wheel, I figure that I'd better address his question! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A wheel, especially a spoked one in the sky as in this case, is of course commonly a symbol of the sun. In this connection, Kerenyi in his *The Gods of the Greeks* (pp. 159-60) penned a conclusory statement, &quot;One can easily recognise in the whole story the punishment of an older, savage sun-god who had to had to be tamed beneath the rule of Zeus.&quot; This might be the case since Zeus was in the business of absorbing other deities and their functions, but Kerenyi points to no sources or other grounds for this conclusion. The article that Anna quotes in her answer above, which relies on Cook's *Zeus,* takes the same view. There is indeed significant iconography showing the wheel to be flaming (just search on Google for Ixion images), so this image appears to have been popular. On the other hand, Robert Graves (*Greek Myths,* 63.1-2) goes off in another direction showing echoes of Frazer, claiming that Ixion was an oak-king who married a moon-goddess (Dia), and was then slain in a ritual involving him being spread-eagled on a tree, which was later made into a wheel. He also claims that old kings called themselves Zeus and their marriage to the moon-goddess displeased the later Olympian priests, hence the hubris theme leading to the punishment. Graves also links Ixion's name to vegetation, not anything solar. So no solar motif for Graves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Turning to the actual sources, from what I see they don't seem to be stressing a solar theme. Although the *Scholiast* on Pindar's Pythians mentions that the wheel was fiery, Pindar himself (Pythian Ode 2.39-44), as well as Hyginus (*Fabulae* 62), Diodorus (*Historical Library* 4.69.5), Apollodorus (*Library,* Epit. 1.20), Virgil (*Georgics* 4.484; *Aeneid* 6.601), and Lucian (*Dialogues of the Gods* VI) never mention fire; they just mention the wheel spinning/whirling, not necessarily going across the sky (although that could be the case), and that the wheel turns due to the force of the winds (not its own power, as sun-gods do). To my mind, this, plus the fact that some later sources (Hyginus; Virgil, *Aeneid*; Lucian) felt comfortable placing the wheel in Hades rather than in the sky suggests that a solar symbolism of the wheel is not the main point here, at least as the story appears in these later versions which differ from the presumed versions that Kerenyi and Cook were talking about. Thus, Kerenyi and Cook could be right and we may just be seeing later versions that mask the original, apples vs. oranges to some extent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Based on what we do have for sources, for these authors the wheel and its spinning appear to symbolize primarily the passage of time into eternity, showing that Ixion's punishment is for eternity. Most of the sources (Pindar, Diodorus, Hyginus, and Lucian) stress that the wheel is supposed to turn for eternity. This has a rough parallel in the Punishment of Prometheus for his act of hubris, which likewise was supposed to be eternal. Finally, Pindar mentions that the wheel has 4 spokes, which normally symbolizes dividing the passage of time into measures (seasons), which are endless cycles. That is, the hub, which appears not to move, represents eternity, while the outer part with the spokes moving represents time passing. See, e.g., *The Book of Symbols,* A. Ronnberg, ed., p. 504.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't think the wheel here has anything to do with the earthly punishment of being broken on the wheel. In that punishment, the victim dies within 1-3 days, whereas Ixion's punishment is eternal and none of the accounts has him dying. None of the accounts has him being broken or otherwise physically abused while on the wheel; except, of course, for the eternal flames in any versions of the story which have fire on the wheel, but that is very different from being broken on the wheel. Finally, based on my prior research, I don't recall this form of punishment being used in the ancient world. (I didn't research this point here since it was not mentioned in your original question, and was raised only in another answer above.)&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4578" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="993" RevisionGUID="8a9ccaa4-99e1-4dc1-b2bd-7cfa38739198" CreationDate="2015-07-04T05:37:21.070" UserId="467" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="Since the questioner, Christofian, said that his inquiry was inspired by my blog post that featured a fiery wheel (see above) and since Anna quoted from my post and showed my photo of that wheel, I figure that I'd better address his question! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A wheel, especially a spoked one in the sky as in this case, is of course commonly a symbol of the sun. In this connection, Kerenyi in his *The Gods of the Greeks* (pp. 159-60) penned a conclusory statement, &quot;One can easily recognise in the whole story the punishment of an older, savage sun-god who had to had to be tamed beneath the rule of Zeus.&quot; This might be the case since Zeus was in the business of absorbing other deities and their functions, but Kerenyi points to no sources or other grounds for this conclusion. The article that Anna quotes in her answer above, which relies on Cook's *Zeus,* takes the same view. There is indeed significant iconography showing the wheel to be flaming (just search on Google for Ixion images), so this image appears to have been popular. On the other hand, Robert Graves (*Greek Myths,* 63.1-2) goes off in another direction showing echoes of Frazer, claiming that Ixion was an oak-king who married a moon-goddess (Dia), and was then slain in a ritual involving him being spread-eagled on a tree, which was later made into the wheel. He also claims that old kings called themselves Zeus and their marriage to the moon-goddess displeased the later Olympian priests, hence the hubris theme leading to the punishment. Graves also links Ixion's name to vegetation, not anything solar. So no solar motif for Graves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Turning to the actual sources, from what I see they don't seem to be stressing a solar theme. Although the *Scholiast* on Pindar's Pythians mentions that the wheel was fiery, *Pindar himself* (Pythian Ode 2.39-44), as well as Hyginus (*Fabulae* 62), Diodorus (*Historical Library* 4.69.5), Apollodorus (*Library,* Epit. 1.20), Virgil (*Georgics* 4.484; *Aeneid* 6.601), and Lucian (*Dialogues of the Gods* VI) never mention fire; they just mention the wheel spinning/whirling, not necessarily going across the sky (although that could be the case), and that the wheel turns due to the force of the winds (not its own power, as sun-gods do). To my mind, this, plus the fact that some later sources (Hyginus; Virgil, *Aeneid*; Lucian) felt comfortable placing the wheel in Hades rather than in the sky, suggests that a solar symbolism of the wheel is not the main point here, at least as the story appears in these later versions which differ from the presumed versions that Kerenyi and Cook were talking about. Thus, Kerenyi and Cook could be right and we may just be seeing later versions that mask the original, apples vs. oranges to some extent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Based on what we do have for sources, for these authors the wheel and its spinning appear to symbolize primarily the passage of time into eternity, showing that Ixion's punishment is for eternity. Most of the sources (Pindar, Diodorus, Hyginus, and Lucian) stress that the wheel is supposed to turn for eternity. This has a rough parallel in the Punishment of Prometheus for his act of hubris, which likewise was supposed to be eternal. Finally, Pindar mentions that the wheel has 4 spokes, which normally symbolizes dividing the passage of time into measures (seasons), which are endless cycles. That is, the hub, which appears not to move, represents eternity, while the outer part with the spokes moving represents time passing. See, e.g., *The Book of Symbols,* A. Ronnberg, ed., p. 504.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't think the wheel here has anything to do with the earthly punishment of being broken on the wheel. In that punishment, the victim dies within 1-3 days, whereas Ixion's punishment is eternal and none of the accounts has him dying. None of the accounts has him being broken or otherwise physically abused while on the wheel; except, of course, for the eternal flames in any versions of the story which have fire on the wheel, but that is very different from being broken on the wheel. Finally, based on my prior research, I don't recall this form of punishment being used in the ancient world. (I didn't research this point here since it was not mentioned in your original question, and was raised only in another answer above.)&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4579" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="993" RevisionGUID="be9f058a-d5bb-4676-9473-fdba9e6bb053" CreationDate="2015-07-04T05:43:09.370" UserId="467" Comment="added 14 characters in body" Text="Since the questioner, Christofian, said that his inquiry was inspired by my blog post that featured a fiery wheel (see above) and since Anna quoted from my post and showed my photo of that wheel, I figure that I'd better address his question! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A wheel, especially a spoked one in the sky as in this case, is of course commonly a symbol of the sun. In this connection, Kerenyi in his *The Gods of the Greeks* (pp. 159-60) penned a conclusory statement, &quot;One can easily recognise in the whole story the punishment of an older, savage sun-god who had to had to be tamed beneath the rule of Zeus.&quot; This might be the case since Zeus was in the business of absorbing other deities and their functions, but Kerenyi points to no sources or other grounds for this conclusion. The article that Anna quotes in her answer above, which relies on Cook's *Zeus,* takes the same view. There is indeed significant iconography showing the wheel to be flaming (just search on Google for Ixion images), so this image appears to have been popular. On the other hand, Robert Graves (*Greek Myths,* 63.1-2) goes off in another direction showing echoes of Frazer, claiming that Ixion was an oak-king who married a moon-goddess (Dia), and was then slain in a ritual involving him being spread-eagled on a tree, which was later made into the wheel. He also claims that old kings called themselves Zeus and their marriage to the moon-goddess displeased the later Olympian priests, hence the hubris theme leading to the punishment. Graves also links Ixion's name to vegetation, not anything solar. So no solar motif for Graves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Turning to the actual sources, from what I see they don't seem to be stressing a solar theme. Although the *Scholiast* on Pindar's Pythians mentions that the wheel was fiery, *Pindar himself* (Pythian Ode 2.39-44), as well as Hyginus (*Fabulae* 62), Diodorus (*Historical Library* 4.69.5), Apollodorus (*Library,* Epit. 1.20), Virgil (*Georgics* 4.484; *Aeneid* 6.601), and Lucian (*Dialogues of the Gods* VI) never mention fire; they just mention the wheel spinning/whirling, not necessarily going across the sky (although that could be the case), and that the wheel turns due to the force of the winds (not its own power, as sun-gods do). To my mind, this, plus the fact that some later sources (Hyginus; Virgil, *Aeneid*; Lucian) felt comfortable placing the wheel in Hades rather than in the sky, suggests that a solar symbolism of the wheel is not the main point here, at least as the story appears in these later versions which differ from the presumed versions that Kerenyi and Cook were talking about. Thus, Kerenyi and Cook could be right in the sense that we may just be seeing later versions that mask the original, apples vs. oranges to some extent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Based on what we do have for sources, for these authors the wheel and its spinning appear to symbolize primarily the passage of time into eternity, showing that Ixion's punishment is for eternity. Most of the sources (Pindar, Diodorus, Hyginus, and Lucian) stress that the wheel is supposed to turn for eternity. This has a rough parallel in the Punishment of Prometheus for his act of hubris, which likewise was supposed to be eternal. Finally, Pindar mentions that the wheel has 4 spokes, which normally symbolizes dividing the passage of time into measures (seasons), which are endless cycles. That is, the hub, which appears not to move, represents eternity, while the outer part with the spokes moving represents time passing. See, e.g., *The Book of Symbols,* A. Ronnberg, ed., p. 504.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't think the wheel here has anything to do with the earthly punishment of being broken on the wheel. In that punishment, the victim dies within 1-3 days, whereas Ixion's punishment is eternal and none of the accounts has him dying. None of the accounts has him being broken or otherwise physically abused while on the wheel; except, of course, for the eternal flames in any versions of the story which have fire on the wheel, but that is very different from being broken on the wheel. Finally, based on my prior research, I don't recall this form of punishment being used in the ancient world. (I didn't research this point here since it was not mentioned in your original question, and was raised only in another answer above.)&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4581" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="994" RevisionGUID="9c70bc13-304b-4741-ac83-448a07a56cf6" CreationDate="2015-07-04T20:58:28.747" UserId="42" Text="It is hard to miss the resemblance:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;**Liberty**  (the Statue of Liberty)  &#xD;&#xA;![Liberty][1]&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;**Columbia**  (The Columbia Pictures logo)   &#xD;&#xA;![Columbia][2]&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both are seen as female personifications of the United States (similar to [Britannia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britannia), of the UK).  They both seem to represent similar values, as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'd be inclined to call them one and the same, but there does seem to be a distinction drawn between them.  Are they considered to be the same entity?  If not, how are they related?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/AcD97.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Nq0EE.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4582" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="994" RevisionGUID="9c70bc13-304b-4741-ac83-448a07a56cf6" CreationDate="2015-07-04T20:58:28.747" UserId="42" Text="Are Liberty and Columbia the same Goddess?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4583" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="994" RevisionGUID="9c70bc13-304b-4741-ac83-448a07a56cf6" CreationDate="2015-07-04T20:58:28.747" UserId="42" Text="|usa|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4584" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="993" RevisionGUID="879fe2be-dcc5-4130-8a7d-3a83cf4e30b5" CreationDate="2015-07-05T01:34:11.860" UserId="467" Comment="added 8 characters in body" Text="Since the questioner, Christofian, said that his inquiry was inspired by my blog post that featured a fiery wheel (see above) and since Anna quoted from my post and showed my photo of that wheel, I figure that I'd better address his question! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A wheel, especially a spoked one in the sky as in this case, is of course commonly a symbol of the sun. In this connection, Kerenyi in his *The Gods of the Greeks* (pp. 159-60) penned a conclusory statement, &quot;One can easily recognise in the whole story the punishment of an older, savage sun-god who had to had to be tamed beneath the rule of Zeus.&quot; This might be the case since Zeus was in the business of absorbing other deities and their functions, but Kerenyi points to no sources or other grounds for this conclusion. The article that Anna quotes in her answer above, which relies on Cook's *Zeus,* takes the same view. There is indeed significant iconography showing the wheel to be flaming (just search on Google for Ixion images), so this image appears to have been popular. On the other hand, Robert Graves (*Greek Myths,* 63.1-2) goes off in another direction showing echoes of Frazer, claiming that Ixion was an oak-king who married a moon-goddess (Dia), and was then slain in a ritual involving him being spread-eagled on a tree, which image later became Ixion on the wheel. He also claims that old kings called themselves Zeus and their marriage to the moon-goddess displeased the later Olympian priests, hence the hubris theme leading to the punishment. Graves also links Ixion's name to vegetation, not anything solar. So no solar motif for Graves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Turning to the actual sources, from what I see they don't seem to be stressing a solar theme. Although the *Scholiast* on Pindar's Pythians mentions that the wheel was fiery, *Pindar himself* (Pythian Ode 2.39-44), as well as Hyginus (*Fabulae* 62), Diodorus (*Historical Library* 4.69.5), Apollodorus (*Library,* Epit. 1.20), Virgil (*Georgics* 4.484; *Aeneid* 6.601), and Lucian (*Dialogues of the Gods* VI) never mention fire; they just mention the wheel spinning/whirling, not necessarily going across the sky (although that could be the case), and that the wheel turns due to the force of the winds (not its own power, as sun-gods do). To my mind, this, plus the fact that some later sources (Hyginus; Virgil, *Aeneid*; Lucian) felt comfortable placing the wheel in Hades rather than in the sky, suggests that a solar symbolism of the wheel is not the main point here, at least as the story appears in these later versions which differ from the presumed versions that Kerenyi and Cook were talking about. Thus, Kerenyi and Cook could be right in the sense that we may just be seeing later versions that mask the original, apples vs. oranges to some extent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Based on what we do have for sources, for these authors the wheel and its spinning appear to symbolize primarily the passage of time into eternity, showing that Ixion's punishment is for eternity. Most of the sources (Pindar, Diodorus, Hyginus, and Lucian) stress that the wheel is supposed to turn for eternity. This has a rough parallel in the punishment of Prometheus for his act of hubris, which likewise was supposed to be eternal. Finally, Pindar mentions that the wheel has 4 spokes, which normally symbolizes dividing the passage of time into measures (seasons), which are endless cycles. That is, the hub, which appears not to move, represents eternity, while the outer part with the spokes moving represents time passing. See, e.g., *The Book of Symbols,* A. Ronnberg, ed., p. 504.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't think the wheel here has anything to do with the earthly punishment of being broken on the wheel. In that punishment, the victim dies within 1-3 days, whereas Ixion's punishment is eternal and none of the accounts has him dying. None of the accounts has him being broken or otherwise physically abused while on the wheel; except, of course, for the eternal flames in any versions of the story which have fire on the wheel, but that is very different from being broken on the wheel. Finally, based on my prior research, I don't recall this form of punishment being used in the ancient world. (I didn't research this point here since it was not mentioned in your original question, and was raised only in another answer above.)&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4585" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="995" RevisionGUID="28d30475-77da-445c-a863-13195b7d307e" CreationDate="2015-07-06T03:37:54.537" UserId="467" Text="Coincidentally, my [July 3rd blog post][1] entitled *Independence Day Mythology: Our Goddess Liberty,* touched on this very issue of Liberty and Columbia being versions of the same goddess, but did not go into technical details of proving their identity for reasons of space. I won't duplicate here what I said in my post (since it is all relevant here) and will simply incorporate that here for background on the goddess as part of this answer, so that I can focus here on the narrow question asked, i.e., whether Liberty and Columbia are the same goddess. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But first regarding the threshold issue of whether we are dealing with myth here: If we were merely dealing with Columbia Pictures and its symbol, then I can see why there would not be real myth. But there is a long historical background to this showing that we are dealing with the evolution of classical Greek and Roman goddesses (Eleutheria and Libertas respectively). In the American Colonies and in the later USA, this goddess (Liberty and Columbia) became part of our own mythology of our struggle for independence, and later of our country. And while they were not worshipped as goddesses, they were revered, sacred figures that made us feel that our country is larger than life.  Finally, our division of this goddess into two separate but related figures is instructive as a wonderful illustration of how in the ancient world too the same deities had different aspects and epithets reflecting the various functions they served (think of the Triple Goddess, or the various faces of Aphrodite as Ourania, Pandemos, and many other titles). It also helps us appreciate the phenomenon of syncretism of deities in the ancient world, since Columbia did get swallowed up by Liberty, in the form of the Statue of Liberty, by the 1920s. This question offers us a wonderful exercise in this respect.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Turning to the evidence for the narrower question at hand. As mentioned in my post, the goddess Liberty did emerge as a symbol for American freedom from the British Crown in the pre-revolutionary war years, but by the time of the revolutionary war itself both Liberty and Columbia (from Christopher Columbus) were names for this same goddess. This can be seen, for example, by comparing coins struck during that time. Below is a coin struck in Boston in 1776 by Paul Revere himself, depicting Liberty sitting on a globe with her trademark cap, holding her rod in one hand and the scales of justice in the other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Paul Revere's coin, 1776][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then right after the war, in Connecticut and New York essentially the same image was minted (except the cap is on the rod, also a traditional image of Libertas), only now her title was Immununis Columbia (i.e, &quot;Immune Columbia,&quot; since we had won the war) (see below).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But as the two originally identical figures evolved they came to represent *different* aspects of the goddess and feature differing traits. Liberty was a &quot;higher&quot; figure representing not so directly America itself (not wearing the stars and stripes) but more particularly America's highest ideals of liberty and freedom. Columbia, on the other hand, represented America itself more than just its ideals, was usually dressed in the stars and stripes, and was invoked for popular patriotic and political purposes (see image below). Her name was also used in a variety of titles, including the District of Columbia, Columbia University, and yes Columbia Pictures, among others.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Image of Columbia from during World War I][4]   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So right here in America we see the same kind of syncretism and multiple aspects/epithets of the same goddess that we saw in ancient classical mythology. The mere fact that we can find this confusing, as evidenced by this question itself, is part of the proof of that. &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythologymatters.wordpress.com/2015/07/02/independence-day-mythology-our-goddess-liberty/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/dzBPC.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/4TDZx.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/J0ap5.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4586" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="995" RevisionGUID="fb9c3cf1-26f6-4770-b0ca-f8f3e5a4a485" CreationDate="2015-07-06T03:43:40.687" UserId="467" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="Coincidentally, my [July 3rd blog post][1], entitled *Independence Day Mythology: Our Goddess Liberty,* touched on this very issue of Liberty and Columbia being versions of the same goddess, but did not go into technical details of proving their identity for reasons of space. I won't duplicate here what I said in my post (since it is all relevant here) and will simply incorporate that here for background on the goddess as part of this answer, so that I can focus here on the narrow question asked, i.e., whether Liberty and Columbia are the same goddess. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But first regarding the threshold issue of whether we are dealing with myth here: If we were merely dealing with Columbia Pictures and its symbol, then I can see why there would not be real myth. But there is a long historical background to this showing that we are dealing with the evolution of classical Greek and Roman goddesses (Eleutheria and Libertas respectively). In the American Colonies and in the later USA, this goddess (Liberty and Columbia) became part of our own mythology of our struggle for independence, and later of our country. And while they were not worshipped as goddesses, they were revered, sacred figures that made us feel that our country is larger than life.  Finally, our division of this goddess into two separate but related figures is instructive as a wonderful illustration of how in the ancient world too the same deities had different aspects and epithets reflecting the various functions they served (think of the Triple Goddess, or the various faces of Aphrodite as Ourania, Pandemos, and many other titles). It also helps us appreciate the phenomenon of syncretism of deities in the ancient world, since Columbia did get swallowed up by Liberty, in the form of the Statue of Liberty, by the 1920s. This question offers us a wonderful exercise in this respect.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Turning to the evidence for the narrower question at hand. As mentioned in my post, the goddess Liberty did emerge as a symbol for American freedom from the British Crown in the pre-revolutionary war years, but by the time of the revolutionary war itself both Liberty and Columbia (from Christopher Columbus) were names for this same goddess. This can be seen, for example, by comparing coins struck during that time. Below is a coin struck in Boston in 1776 by Paul Revere himself, depicting Liberty sitting on a globe with her trademark cap, holding her rod in one hand and the scales of justice in the other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Paul Revere's coin, 1776][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then right after the war, in Connecticut and New York essentially the same image was minted (except the cap is on the rod, also a traditional image of Libertas), only now her title was Immununis Columbia (i.e, &quot;Immune Columbia,&quot; since we had won the war) (see below).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But as the two originally identical figures evolved they came to represent *different* aspects of the goddess and feature differing traits. Liberty was a &quot;higher&quot; figure representing not so directly America itself (not wearing the stars and stripes) but more particularly America's highest ideals of liberty and freedom. Columbia, on the other hand, represented America itself more than just its ideals, was usually dressed in the stars and stripes, and was invoked for popular patriotic and political purposes (see image below). Her name was also used in a variety of titles, including the District of Columbia, Columbia University, and yes Columbia Pictures, among others.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Image of Columbia from during World War I][4]   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So right here in America we see the same kind of syncretism and multiple aspects/epithets of the same goddess that we saw in ancient classical mythology. The mere fact that we can find this confusing, as evidenced by this question itself, is part of the proof of that. &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythologymatters.wordpress.com/2015/07/02/independence-day-mythology-our-goddess-liberty/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/dzBPC.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/4TDZx.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/J0ap5.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4587" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="994" RevisionGUID="66c4dbd5-c3e2-4c80-ad38-d82506857446" CreationDate="2015-07-06T03:59:51.673" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 18 characters in body" Text="It is hard to miss the resemblance:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;**Liberty**  (example: the Statue of Liberty)  &#xD;&#xA;![Liberty][1]&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;**Columbia**  (example: the Columbia Pictures logo)   &#xD;&#xA;![Columbia][2]&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both are seen as female personifications of the United States (similar to [Britannia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britannia), of the UK).  They both seem to represent similar values, as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'd be inclined to call them one and the same, but there does seem to be a distinction drawn between them.  Are they considered to be the same entity?  If not, how are they related?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/AcD97.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Nq0EE.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4588" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="995" RevisionGUID="8a41e216-88d9-4db9-8371-54e224c7ce7e" CreationDate="2015-07-06T05:05:33.430" UserId="467" Comment="added 28 characters in body" Text="Coincidentally, my [July 3rd blog post][1], entitled *Independence Day Mythology: Our Goddess Liberty,* touched on this very issue of Liberty and Columbia being versions of the same goddess, but did not go into technical details of proving their identity for reasons of space. I won't duplicate here what I said in my post (since it is *all* relevant here and would all have to be repeated here), so will simply &quot;incorporate&quot; that here for background as part of this answer, so that I can focus here on the narrow question asked, i.e., whether Liberty and Columbia are the same goddess. Now I get to include some things that I had researched but did not have room for in my blog post!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But first regarding the threshold issue of whether we are dealing with myth here: If we were merely dealing with Columbia Pictures and its symbol, then I can see why there would not be real myth. But there is a long historical background to this showing that we are dealing with the evolution of classical Greek and Roman goddesses (Eleutheria and Libertas respectively). In the American Colonies and in the later USA, this goddess (Liberty and Columbia) became part of our own mythology of our struggle for independence, and later of our country. And while they were not worshipped as goddesses, they were revered, sacred figures that made us feel that our country is larger than life.  Finally, our division of this goddess into two separate but related figures is instructive as a wonderful illustration of how in the ancient world too the same deities had different aspects and epithets reflecting the various functions they served (think of the Triple Goddess, or the various faces of Aphrodite as Ourania, Pandemos, and many other titles). It also helps us appreciate the phenomenon of syncretism of deities in the ancient world, since Columbia did get swallowed up by Liberty, in the form of the Statue of Liberty, by the 1920s. This question offers us a wonderful exercise in this respect.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Turning to the evidence for the narrower question at hand. As mentioned in my post, the goddess Liberty did emerge as a symbol for American freedom from the British Crown in the pre-revolutionary war years, but by the time of the revolutionary war itself both Liberty and Columbia (from Christopher Columbus) were names for this same goddess. This can be seen most simply and easily by comparing coins struck during that time. Below is a coin struck in Boston in 1776 by Paul Revere himself, depicting &quot;Goddess Liberty&quot; sitting on a globe with her trademark cap, holding her trademark rod in one hand and the scales of justice in the other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Paul Revere's coin, 1776][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then, right after the war, in Connecticut and New York essentially the same image was minted (except the cap is on the rod, also a traditional image of Libertas), only now her title was Immununis Columbia (i.e, &quot;Immune Columbia,&quot; since we had won the war) (see below).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But as the two originally identical figures evolved they came to represent *different* aspects of the goddess and feature differing traits. Liberty was a &quot;higher&quot; figure representing not so directly America itself (not wearing the stars and stripes) but more particularly America's highest ideals of liberty and freedom. Columbia, on the other hand, represented America itself more than just its ideals, was usually dressed in the stars and stripes, and was invoked for popular patriotic and political purposes (see image below). Her name was also used in a variety of titles, including the District of Columbia, Columbia University, and yes Columbia Pictures, among others.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Image of Columbia from during World War I][4]   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So right here in America we see the same kind of syncretism and multiple aspects/epithets of the same goddess that we saw in ancient classical mythology. The mere fact that we can find this confusing, as evidenced by this question itself, is part of the proof of that. &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythologymatters.wordpress.com/2015/07/02/independence-day-mythology-our-goddess-liberty/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/dzBPC.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/4TDZx.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/J0ap5.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4589" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="995" RevisionGUID="f13b2229-9166-4dd8-89e1-7073e46d9acf" CreationDate="2015-07-06T05:11:23.697" UserId="467" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body" Text="Coincidentally, my [July 3rd blog post][1], entitled *Independence Day Mythology: Our Goddess Liberty,* touched on this very issue of Liberty and Columbia being versions of the same goddess, but did not go into technical details of proving their identity for reasons of space. I won't duplicate here what I said in my post (since it is *all* relevant here and would all have to be repeated here), so will simply &quot;incorporate&quot; that here for background as part of this answer, so that I can focus here on the narrow question asked, i.e., whether Liberty and Columbia are the same goddess. Now I get to include some things that I had researched but did not have room for in my blog post!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But first regarding the threshold issue of whether we are dealing with myth here: If we were merely dealing with Columbia Pictures and its symbol, then I can see why there would not be real myth. But there is a long historical background to this showing that we are dealing with the evolution of classical Greek and Roman goddesses (Eleutheria and Libertas respectively). In the American Colonies and in the later USA, this goddess (Liberty and Columbia) became part of our own mythology of our struggle for independence, and later of our country. And while they were not worshipped as goddesses, they were revered, sacred figures that made us feel that our country is larger than life.  Finally, our division of this goddess into two separate but related figures is instructive as a wonderful illustration of how in the ancient world too the same deities had different aspects and epithets reflecting the various functions they served (think of the Triple Goddess, or the various faces of Aphrodite as Ourania, Pandemos, and many other titles). It also helps us appreciate the phenomenon of syncretism of deities in the ancient world, since Columbia did get swallowed up by Liberty, in the form of the Statue of Liberty, by the 1920s. This question offers us a wonderful exercise in this respect.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Turning to the evidence for the narrower question at hand. As mentioned in my post, the goddess Liberty did emerge as a symbol for American freedom from the British Crown in the pre-revolutionary war years, but by the time of the revolutionary war itself both Liberty and Columbia (from Christopher Columbus) were names for this same goddess. This can be seen most simply and easily by comparing coins struck during that time. Below is a coin struck in Boston in 1776 by Paul Revere himself, depicting &quot;Goddess Liberty&quot; sitting on a globe with her trademark cap, holding her trademark rod in one hand and the scales of justice in the other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Paul Revere's coin, 1776][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then, right after the war, in Connecticut and New York essentially the same image was minted (except the cap is on the rod, also a traditional image of Libertas), only now her title was Immunis Columbia (i.e, &quot;Immune Columbia,&quot; since we had won the war) (see below).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But as the two originally identical figures evolved they came to represent *different* aspects of the goddess and feature differing traits. Liberty was a &quot;higher&quot; figure representing not so directly America itself (not wearing the stars and stripes) but more particularly America's highest ideals of liberty and freedom. Columbia, on the other hand, represented America itself more than just its ideals, was usually dressed in the stars and stripes, and was invoked for popular patriotic and political purposes (see image below). Her name was also used in a variety of titles, including the District of Columbia, Columbia University, and yes Columbia Pictures, among others.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Image of Columbia from during World War I][4]   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So right here in America we see the same kind of syncretism and multiple aspects/epithets of the same goddess that we saw in ancient classical mythology. The mere fact that we can find this confusing, as evidenced by this question itself, is part of the proof of that. &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythologymatters.wordpress.com/2015/07/02/independence-day-mythology-our-goddess-liberty/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/dzBPC.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/4TDZx.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/J0ap5.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4590" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="994" RevisionGUID="6492a0ad-53f2-471b-81ff-5608dbdc069c" CreationDate="2015-07-06T06:14:33.463" UserId="42" Comment="added 71 characters in body" Text="It is hard to miss the resemblance:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;**Liberty**  (example: the Statue of Liberty)  &#xD;&#xA;![Liberty][1]&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;**Columbia**  (example: the Columbia Pictures logo)   &#xD;&#xA;![Columbia][2]&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both are seen as female personifications of the United States (similar to [Britannia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britannia), of the UK).  They both seem to represent similar values, as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'd be inclined to call them one and the same, but there does seem to be a [distinction drawn between them](http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/02/hail-columbia/?_r=0).  Are they considered to be the same entity?  If not, how are they related?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/AcD97.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Nq0EE.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4596" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="990" RevisionGUID="9f26dbe3-d877-4ef3-b2b2-68a12fe2df35" CreationDate="2015-07-06T12:02:53.693" UserId="131" Comment="added citation" Text="Being bound to a cartwheel and then having your limbs broken was one of the more painful methods of execution in antiquity ([Breaking wheel][1]), and as such often used for rapists. Whether Ixion was battered after being tied is not clear, but it would certainly have come to the mind of ancient audiences.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Karl von Amira and Hans von Hentig have written that the breaking wheel was an archetypical emblem of the sun. Thus the torture wheel, which dates back to ancient Greece and Rome, was in their view a type of pagan sacrifice to the sun god Zeus....Perhaps Ixion's eternal punishment corresponded to the slow death one suffered from the breaking wheel.&quot; (Corretti, *Cellini's Perseus and Medusa and the Loggia dei Lanzi*, in a chapter on 'The Public face of Justice').&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaking_wheel" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4598" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="996" RevisionGUID="c54c4e5c-1a57-48c4-8a94-3d3c84553e9c" CreationDate="2015-07-06T20:07:56.270" UserId="183" Text="I'm not an Operating Thetan either, nor do I want to be. Fortunately, those of us who aren't permitted to be in the know do have access to some documents, including the [Fishman Affidavit](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fishman_Affidavit). I worked off of the transcript/analysis [here](http://www.spaink.net/fishman/index2.html).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Quoting [OT III](http://www.spaink.net/fishman/ot3.html),&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Let's turn to Incident II, which allegedly happened 75 million years ago and occurred on earth:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; Incident II is over 36 days long. Capture on other planets was weeks or months before the implant. Those on Teegeeack (Earth) were just blown up except for Loyal officers who were (shortly before the explosion on Earth) rounded up. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; L. Ron Hubbard, OT III, p. 79.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So Xenu captured everybody who did not live on earth, held them imprisoned for a few weeks or sometimes even months, and then transported them to earth and mixed them with the rest, that is: the people who did live there. He then proceeded to nuke the lot. Just a few loyal officers escaped this major hydrogen bombing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not everyone was killed. That leaves a loophole for the direct survival of some non-thetan beings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also important, however, is [the relationship between thetans and death](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thetan#Thetans_and_death). Quoting from [the linked article](http://www.latimes.com/local/la-scientologysidea062490-story.html#page=1),&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hubbard said that when a person dies, his or her thetan goes to a &quot;landing station&quot; on Venus, where it is programmed with lies about its past life and its next life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A better explanation of the relationship between thetans and humans is quoted in the OT III analysis:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; One's body is a mass of individual thetans stuck to oneself or to the body. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Margery Wakefield, The Road to Xenu, p. 77.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we go back to [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_opera_in_Scientology#Narratives_and_civilizations),&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eventually, officers of the Galactic Confederacy launched a rebellion against Xenu, which continued six years before capturing him and placing him in an electrified prison in the center of a mountain. Hubbard taught that the thetans brainwashed by Xenu's forces remained on Earth, where the &quot;body thetans&quot;, attached to human psyches, contribute to human problems; and that individuals could be freed from these brainwashed thetans and thus attain a type of salvation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Better text (from the  OT III analysis) is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; When through with his crime loyal officers (to the people) captured him after six years of battle and put him in an electronic mountain trap where he still is. &quot;They&quot; are gone. The place (Confederation) has since been a desert. The length and brutality of it all was such that this Confederation never recovered. The implant is calculated to kill (by pneumonia etc) anyone who attempts to solve it. This liability has been dispensed with by my tech development. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Margery Wakefield, The Road to Xenu, p. 76.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that this mountain is not on Earth, but another planet.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, there's no explicit description of the &quot;rebirth of humankind&quot; aside from what is given in the Fishman Affidavit." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4599" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="996" RevisionGUID="a66806a8-97d4-4f48-9cd5-957c265dd456" CreationDate="2015-07-06T22:24:30.180" UserId="183" Comment="added 44 characters in body" Text="I'm not an Operating Thetan either, nor do I want to be. Fortunately, those of us who aren't permitted to be in the know do have access to some documents, including the [Fishman Affidavit](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fishman_Affidavit). I worked off of the transcript/analysis [here](http://www.spaink.net/fishman/index2.html).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Quoting [an analysis of OT III material, from the Affidavit](http://www.spaink.net/fishman/ot3.html),&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Let's turn to Incident II, which allegedly happened 75 million years ago and occurred on earth:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; Incident II is over 36 days long. Capture on other planets was weeks or months before the implant. Those on Teegeeack (Earth) were just blown up except for Loyal officers who were (shortly before the explosion on Earth) rounded up. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; L. Ron Hubbard, OT III, p. 79.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So Xenu captured everybody who did not live on earth, held them imprisoned for a few weeks or sometimes even months, and then transported them to earth and mixed them with the rest, that is: the people who did live there. He then proceeded to nuke the lot. Just a few loyal officers escaped this major hydrogen bombing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not everyone was killed. That leaves a loophole for the direct survival of some non-thetan beings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also important, however, is [the relationship between thetans and death](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thetan#Thetans_and_death). Quoting from [the linked article](http://www.latimes.com/local/la-scientologysidea062490-story.html#page=1),&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hubbard said that when a person dies, his or her thetan goes to a &quot;landing station&quot; on Venus, where it is programmed with lies about its past life and its next life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A better explanation of the relationship between thetans and humans is quoted in the OT III analysis:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; One's body is a mass of individual thetans stuck to oneself or to the body. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Margery Wakefield, The Road to Xenu, p. 77.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we go back to [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_opera_in_Scientology#Narratives_and_civilizations),&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eventually, officers of the Galactic Confederacy launched a rebellion against Xenu, which continued six years before capturing him and placing him in an electrified prison in the center of a mountain. Hubbard taught that the thetans brainwashed by Xenu's forces remained on Earth, where the &quot;body thetans&quot;, attached to human psyches, contribute to human problems; and that individuals could be freed from these brainwashed thetans and thus attain a type of salvation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Better text (from the  OT III analysis) is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; When through with his crime loyal officers (to the people) captured him after six years of battle and put him in an electronic mountain trap where he still is. &quot;They&quot; are gone. The place (Confederation) has since been a desert. The length and brutality of it all was such that this Confederation never recovered. The implant is calculated to kill (by pneumonia etc) anyone who attempts to solve it. This liability has been dispensed with by my tech development. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Margery Wakefield, The Road to Xenu, p. 76.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that this mountain is not on Earth, but another planet.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, there's no explicit description of the &quot;rebirth of humankind&quot; aside from what is given in the Fishman Affidavit." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4600" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="997" RevisionGUID="d487e50e-5286-42b1-84ef-bb9c823527aa" CreationDate="2015-07-06T22:32:01.430" UserId="42" Text="The same name being applied to each of them likely reflects the similarity of the roles, as a wanderer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From Simek's &quot;Dictionary of Northern Mythology&quot;, the name Gangleri means &quot;the one tired from walking&quot; (or simply &quot;the wanderer&quot;).  It's an appropriate choice of a pseudonym for Gylfi, as he poses as a travelling old man.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's also an appropriate nickname for Odin, as a frequent traveler himself.  This name for him does not appear only in this story, so is unlikely to be injected just to indicate they are wise to his deception.  This name for Odin also attested in the older Poetic Edda, in the Grimnismal, which is likely, at least in part, Snorri Sturnlson's source for the quoted passage:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 46. Grim is my name, | Gangleri am 1,  &#xD;&#xA;Herjan and Hjalmberi,  &#xD;&#xA;Thekk and Thrithi, | Thuth and Uth,  &#xD;&#xA;Helblindi and Hor;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 47. Sath and Svipal | and Sanngetal,  &#xD;&#xA;Herteit and Hnikar,  &#xD;&#xA;Bileyg, Baleyg, | Bolverk, Fjolnir,  &#xD;&#xA;Grim and Grimnir, | Glapsvith, Fjolsvith.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 48. Sithhott, Sithskegg, | Sigfather, Hnikuth,  &#xD;&#xA;Allfather, Valfather, | Atrith, Farmatyr:  &#xD;&#xA;A single name | have I never had  &#xD;&#xA;Since first among men I fared.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 49. Grimnir they call me | in Geirröth's hall,  &#xD;&#xA;With Asmund Jalk am I;  &#xD;&#xA;Kjalar I was | when I went in a sledge,  &#xD;&#xA;At the council Thror am I called,  &#xD;&#xA;As Vithur I fare to the fight;  &#xD;&#xA;Oski, Biflindi, | Jafnhor and Omi,  &#xD;&#xA;Gondlir and Harbarth midst gods.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Grimnismal](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe06.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rudolf Simek stresses that the same name does not make the two the same:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...Snorri also says that Gylfi who comes to the gods is called Gangleri, but he is definitely not identical with Odin.  The name Gangleri is clearly connected with Odin's frequent role as a solitary wanderer.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;A Dictionary of Northern Mythology, Rudolf Simek&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The use of the same name likely has more to do with the fact the Gylfi takes up a role markedly similar to one you might expect from Odin in this aspect, as a wanderer:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gylfi takes the Odin-role in this contest of wisdom, as the traveler under an assumed name, and indeed this assumed name, Gangleri, is one of Odin's...   &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Norse Mythology: A Guide to Gods, Heroes, Rituals, and Beliefs](https://books.google.com/books?id=jME8hD2UO4QC&amp;pg=PA21) John Lindow&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4601" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="997" RevisionGUID="e8ee9b68-7f5b-415a-a904-f2e7e56ff87b" CreationDate="2015-07-06T22:48:27.080" UserId="42" Comment="edited body" Text="The same name being applied to each of them likely reflects the similarity of the roles, as a wanderer.  Gylfi takes up a role markedly similar to one you might expect from Odin in this aspect, as a wanderer:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gylfi takes the Odin-role in this contest of wisdom, as the traveler under an assumed name, and indeed this assumed name, Gangleri, is one of Odin's...   &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Norse Mythology: A Guide to Gods, Heroes, Rituals, and Beliefs](https://books.google.com/books?id=jME8hD2UO4QC&amp;pg=PA21) John Lindow&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From Simek's &quot;Dictionary of Northern Mythology&quot;, the name Gangleri means &quot;the one tired from walking&quot; (or simply &quot;the wanderer&quot;).  It's an appropriate choice of a pseudonym for Gylfi, as he poses as a travelling old man.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's also appropriate for Odin, as a frequent traveler himself.  This name for him does not appear only in this story, so is unlikely to be injected just to indicate they are wise to his deception.  This name for Odin is also attested in the Poetic Edda, in the Grimnismal, which is likely, at least in part, Snorri Sturlson's source for the quoted passage:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 46. Grim is my name, | Gangleri am I,  &#xD;&#xA;Herjan and Hjalmberi,  &#xD;&#xA;Thekk and Thrithi, | Thuth and Uth,  &#xD;&#xA;Helblindi and Hor;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 47. Sath and Svipal | and Sanngetal,  &#xD;&#xA;Herteit and Hnikar,  &#xD;&#xA;Bileyg, Baleyg, | Bolverk, Fjolnir,  &#xD;&#xA;Grim and Grimnir, | Glapsvith, Fjolsvith.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 48. Sithhott, Sithskegg, | Sigfather, Hnikuth,  &#xD;&#xA;Allfather, Valfather, | Atrith, Farmatyr:  &#xD;&#xA;A single name | have I never had  &#xD;&#xA;Since first among men I fared.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 49. Grimnir they call me | in Geirröth's hall,  &#xD;&#xA;With Asmund Jalk am I;  &#xD;&#xA;Kjalar I was | when I went in a sledge,  &#xD;&#xA;At the council Thror am I called,  &#xD;&#xA;As Vithur I fare to the fight;  &#xD;&#xA;Oski, Biflindi, | Jafnhor and Omi,  &#xD;&#xA;Gondlir and Harbarth midst gods.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Grimnismal](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe06.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rudolf Simek stresses, by the way, that the same name does not make the two the same person:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...Snorri also says that Gylfi who comes to the gods is called Gangleri, but he is definitely not identical with Odin.  The name Gangleri is clearly connected with Odin's frequent role as a solitary wanderer.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;A Dictionary of Northern Mythology, Rudolf Simek&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4602" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="997" RevisionGUID="c16a5ec1-8b2a-48fa-abb2-af0e83a751b8" CreationDate="2015-07-06T22:55:49.760" UserId="42" Comment="added 14 characters in body" Text="The same name being applied to each of them likely reflects the similarity of the roles, as a wanderer.  Gylfi takes up a role markedly similar to one you might expect from Odin in this aspect, as a wanderer:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gylfi takes the Odin-role in this contest of wisdom, as the traveler under an assumed name, and indeed this assumed name, Gangleri, is one of Odin's...   &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Norse Mythology: A Guide to Gods, Heroes, Rituals, and Beliefs](https://books.google.com/books?id=jME8hD2UO4QC&amp;pg=PA21) John Lindow&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From Simek's &quot;Dictionary of Northern Mythology&quot;, the name Gangleri means &quot;the one tired from walking&quot; (or simply &quot;the wanderer&quot;).  It's an appropriate choice of a pseudonym for Gylfi, as he poses as a travelling old man.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's also appropriate for Odin, who frequently travelled in disguise himself.  This name for him does not appear only in this story, so is unlikely to be injected just to indicate they are wise to his deception.  This name for Odin is also attested in the Poetic Edda, in the Grimnismal, which is likely, at least in part, Snorri Sturlson's source for the quoted passage:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 46. Grim is my name, | Gangleri am I,  &#xD;&#xA;Herjan and Hjalmberi,  &#xD;&#xA;Thekk and Thrithi, | Thuth and Uth,  &#xD;&#xA;Helblindi and Hor;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 47. Sath and Svipal | and Sanngetal,  &#xD;&#xA;Herteit and Hnikar,  &#xD;&#xA;Bileyg, Baleyg, | Bolverk, Fjolnir,  &#xD;&#xA;Grim and Grimnir, | Glapsvith, Fjolsvith.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 48. Sithhott, Sithskegg, | Sigfather, Hnikuth,  &#xD;&#xA;Allfather, Valfather, | Atrith, Farmatyr:  &#xD;&#xA;A single name | have I never had  &#xD;&#xA;Since first among men I fared.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 49. Grimnir they call me | in Geirröth's hall,  &#xD;&#xA;With Asmund Jalk am I;  &#xD;&#xA;Kjalar I was | when I went in a sledge,  &#xD;&#xA;At the council Thror am I called,  &#xD;&#xA;As Vithur I fare to the fight;  &#xD;&#xA;Oski, Biflindi, | Jafnhor and Omi,  &#xD;&#xA;Gondlir and Harbarth midst gods.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Grimnismal](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe06.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rudolf Simek stresses, by the way, that the same name does not make the two the same person:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...Snorri also says that Gylfi who comes to the gods is called Gangleri, but he is definitely not identical with Odin.  The name Gangleri is clearly connected with Odin's frequent role as a solitary wanderer.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;A Dictionary of Northern Mythology, Rudolf Simek&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4603" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="997" RevisionGUID="e8bad5c4-b3bd-4604-8859-cf6529f2555d" CreationDate="2015-07-06T23:04:33.530" UserId="42" Comment="added 39 characters in body" Text="The same name being applied to each of them likely reflects the similarity of the roles, as a wanderer.  Gylfi takes up a role markedly similar to one you might expect from Odin in this aspect, as a wanderer:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gylfi takes the Odin-role in this contest of wisdom, as the traveler under an assumed name, and indeed this assumed name, Gangleri, is one of Odin's...   &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Norse Mythology: A Guide to Gods, Heroes, Rituals, and Beliefs](https://books.google.com/books?id=jME8hD2UO4QC&amp;pg=PA21) John Lindow&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From Simek's &quot;Dictionary of Northern Mythology&quot;, the name Gangleri means &quot;the one tired from walking&quot; (or simply &quot;the wanderer&quot;).  It's an appropriate choice of a pseudonym for Gylfi, as he poses as a travelling old man.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's also appropriate for Odin, who frequently travelled in disguise himself (seen in Grímnismál and Vafþrúðnismál).  This name for him does not appear only in this story, so is unlikely to be injected just to indicate they are wise to his deception.  This name for Odin is also attested in the Poetic Edda, in the Grimnismal, which is likely, at least in part, Snorri Sturlson's source for the quoted passage:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 46. Grim is my name, | Gangleri am I,  &#xD;&#xA;Herjan and Hjalmberi,  &#xD;&#xA;Thekk and Thrithi, | Thuth and Uth,  &#xD;&#xA;Helblindi and Hor;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 47. Sath and Svipal | and Sanngetal,  &#xD;&#xA;Herteit and Hnikar,  &#xD;&#xA;Bileyg, Baleyg, | Bolverk, Fjolnir,  &#xD;&#xA;Grim and Grimnir, | Glapsvith, Fjolsvith.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 48. Sithhott, Sithskegg, | Sigfather, Hnikuth,  &#xD;&#xA;Allfather, Valfather, | Atrith, Farmatyr:  &#xD;&#xA;A single name | have I never had  &#xD;&#xA;Since first among men I fared.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 49. Grimnir they call me | in Geirröth's hall,  &#xD;&#xA;With Asmund Jalk am I;  &#xD;&#xA;Kjalar I was | when I went in a sledge,  &#xD;&#xA;At the council Thror am I called,  &#xD;&#xA;As Vithur I fare to the fight;  &#xD;&#xA;Oski, Biflindi, | Jafnhor and Omi,  &#xD;&#xA;Gondlir and Harbarth midst gods.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Grimnismal](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe06.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rudolf Simek stresses, by the way, that the same name does not make the two the same person:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...Snorri also says that Gylfi who comes to the gods is called Gangleri, but he is definitely not identical with Odin.  The name Gangleri is clearly connected with Odin's frequent role as a solitary wanderer.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;A Dictionary of Northern Mythology, Rudolf Simek&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4604" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="998" RevisionGUID="507e2437-414e-4708-bdd1-ffbb2c967d36" CreationDate="2015-07-07T02:39:52.083" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="I have a condensed copy of James Frazer's *[The Golden Bough][1]* lying on the floor of my room (the 1922 edition), and I'm trying to decide if I should read it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is reading this 800+ page &quot;condensed&quot; book worth my time? Is it relevant in today's discussions about religion/mythology? Will it further my understanding of religion/mythology? And for people who don't have the advantage of the condensed version, what parts of the text are the most important/relevant? (And finally, it would be great if I could get a paragraph summery of what the book accomplishes/contributes to the study of religion/myth.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(I have no idea if this is a good question for the site. If the community closes this question for being too broad, I will have no objections.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Bough" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4605" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="998" RevisionGUID="507e2437-414e-4708-bdd1-ffbb2c967d36" CreationDate="2015-07-07T02:39:52.083" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="Is The Golden Bough still relevant today?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4606" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="998" RevisionGUID="507e2437-414e-4708-bdd1-ffbb2c967d36" CreationDate="2015-07-07T02:39:52.083" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="|untagged|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4607" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="999" RevisionGUID="92d08d1f-dd1f-482c-9b64-cf58e28c56d7" CreationDate="2015-07-08T02:58:39.507" UserId="467" Text="I can answer partly in theory and partly based on my own experience. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Generally speaking, Frazer's work, including this book, is regarded as outdated both in terms of theory (much of which has not been borne out) as well as in many of the facts that it reports.  (Even at the time, much of the information came from questionnaires that he sent out (e.g., to missionaries), rather than from proper anthropological reports, and so was of questionable reliability.) As a result, scholars today generally don't rely on him in making conclusions. Nevertheless, his work is still a valuable, stimulating resource, especially when one is formulating one's own theories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is also important to understand Frazer because he influenced so many others who write about myth (e.g., Jane Harrison, Robert Graves), so it is important to be able to detect Frazer's influence when reading their writings. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Before reading even some of Frazer, however, it is important to learn about his background and theories, and their legacy, in order to be able to interpret what he is saying. Unfortunately, in the abridged edition that you are talking about (assuming it is the same Touchstone 1996 edition that I have) there is no introduction by another scholar that could serve this purpose. So the best resource for this purpose is *J.G. Frazer: His Life and Work* by Robert Ackerman; if you can afford it, Ackerman's other book, *The Myth and Ritual School: J.G. Frazer and the Cambridge Ritualists* is also good in this regard.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as whether it is worth reading the whole abridged version (much less the whole 3rd unabridged edition of 12 volumes + vol 13 supplement), this of course would be best if you have the time to do it. In my own case, I did not read it from cover to cover, but consult it (including the full unabridged version) regularly as needed, and over the years I have read probably two-thirds of it by sections, not in order. I don't think I've suffered much from not reading it in order cover-to-cover, but finishing the rest is certainly on my bucket list.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4608" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1000" RevisionGUID="bdb0686b-44ae-4a83-bfc1-06f82267e2d6" CreationDate="2015-07-08T03:46:02.627" UserId="501" Text="[The excellent answer][1] by HDE mentions the Chinese dragon from 4700-2900BC, but did not explore further. This answer will attempt to source the claim for the Chinese dragon, which is arguably older and more complete than the Sumerian dragon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A photo of the dragon, made from clams embedded within sandstone, can be [found here][2]: &#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1987年在河南省濮陽縣西水坡仰韶文化遺址發現的用蚌殼堆積的龍形圖案，距今已有6000多年，被考古界譽為“中華第一龍”（2006年9月26日攝）。新華社&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The dragon-shaped artwork found in 1987 in Henan Province, Puyang District in the Yang Shao culture ruins is more than 6000 years old. Archaeologists have named it &quot;The First Chinese Dragon&quot;. Photo credit Xinhua, 2006 September 26. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The history of this dragon sculpture is described in greater detail [here][4]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1986年，境内出土的石磨盘、石磨棒、三足陶等裴李岗文化典型器物证明，七、八千年前这里已有人类活动。1987年，在濮阳西水坡发掘出三组蚌砌龙、虎图墓葬。据测定，其年代距今6400年左右，蚌壳龙被考古界公认为“中华第一龙”。&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In 1986, millstones, pestles, and pottery showed that the Fei Li Ridge culture has existed in Puyang since 7000-8000 years ago. In 1987, three groups of burial art depicting dragons and tigers were found in Xishuipo, Puyang. They were dated to 6400 years ago; the clamshell dragon was unanimously recognised by archaeologists as &quot;The First Chinese Dragon&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/976/501&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://hk.crntt.com/doc/1019/9/3/5/101993521_2.html?coluid=7&amp;kindid=0&amp;docid=101993521&amp;mdate=0129171341&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/TV8GK.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://cul.shangdu.com/hnwh/20110621/273_344681.shtml" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4610" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1001" RevisionGUID="a315bf57-fe33-4006-8bb8-b6fcd6e54e2f" CreationDate="2015-07-08T14:02:44.890" UserId="151" Text="I just want to draw attention to the Perseus [search tool][1], where I found this [reference][2] for dragon   town  Echinus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;So called from Echion, fabled to have sprung from the dragon's teeth. Its site is marked by the modern village called Akhino. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of course dragons seem to come from middle eastern civilizations, lots of quotes that show that appear with a simple dragon search.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/search&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0137:book=4:chapter=14&amp;highlight=older%2Cdragon" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4612" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1002" RevisionGUID="b9bca631-020a-4a54-bedb-ab9ca08524ee" CreationDate="2015-07-09T01:19:13.680" UserId="140" Text="A lot of, if not most, modern fantasy tends to have 'Elven' races that seem to be largely inspired by the Norse Elves, likely by way of Tolkien. There also seems to be a large amount of Celtic influence, however. This has got me wondering, are there any major similarities between the two myths?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think a lot of what we tend to lump under the word 'fairy' were actually a variety of different creatures in the original Celtic myths, are any of them particularly close to the Norse Elves? I'm inclined to think maybe the Fair Folk, but I'm not really an expert on the subject.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What about where the creatures/races are supposedly from? Are there any major similarities between Faerie and Alfheim?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there maybe even some common origin for these myths?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4613" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1002" RevisionGUID="b9bca631-020a-4a54-bedb-ab9ca08524ee" CreationDate="2015-07-09T01:19:13.680" UserId="140" Text="Are there any relations between Norse elves and Celtic fairies, or their home realms?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4614" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1002" RevisionGUID="b9bca631-020a-4a54-bedb-ab9ca08524ee" CreationDate="2015-07-09T01:19:13.680" UserId="140" Text="|norse|comparative|celtic|fairies|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4616" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1004" RevisionGUID="3b8864be-f0aa-4706-b05b-5e2ccfcee361" CreationDate="2015-07-10T01:44:00.360" UserId="517" Text="*Pegasus and the Hydra* by Odilon Redon&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Pegasus and the Hydra][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/UmAyB.jpg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have not been able to locate an established and credible myth behind Pegasus fighting the Hydra. Is there one, or did this originate in the mind of Odilon Redon?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4617" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1004" RevisionGUID="3b8864be-f0aa-4706-b05b-5e2ccfcee361" CreationDate="2015-07-10T01:44:00.360" UserId="517" Text="Pegasus and the Hydra - Is there a Myth behind this Painting?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4618" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1004" RevisionGUID="3b8864be-f0aa-4706-b05b-5e2ccfcee361" CreationDate="2015-07-10T01:44:00.360" UserId="517" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4619" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1005" RevisionGUID="743eaa3b-f7e7-4440-8ead-369cde2b5b49" CreationDate="2015-07-10T02:27:04.320" UserId="398" Text="There is not a myth of Pegasus fighting the Hydra, but two thing are related. First, Pegasus sprung from Medusa's blood, so snakes and Pegasus are associated there. Second, Bellerophon (or Bellerophontes) fought the Chimera with Pegasus, which, as you can see in the picture below, had snakes as part of it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://www.theoi.com/Gallery/P29.3.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can read all the collective myths and a summary of what they say about Pegasus here: http://www.theoi.com/Ther/HipposPegasos.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm not familiar with the artist in question, so perhaps this battle merely sprung fully-formed and winged from his imagination.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/DJ97v.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4620" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1006" RevisionGUID="6de0f522-8edd-42bc-bd77-26b3e884737b" CreationDate="2015-07-10T04:57:13.907" UserId="42" Text="To expand on C. M. Weimer's explanation, it may be that the monster depicted at the bottom is *indeed* Chimera.  This seems to be a subject that Redon was well acquainted with.  A [writeup from an auction](http://www.thecityreview.com/s01cimp2.html) in 2001 displays a similar work by Redon &quot;Pégase blanc,&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Redon's &quot;Pégase blanc,&quot;][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The similarity in the layout of the work seems quite striking to me, especially the undulating serpentine form of the Chimera.  The writeup includes a note that the bottom figure is often *mistaken* for Hydra, but is in fact Chimera.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Twisting on the ground below is the serpent Chimaera (sometimes misidentified as Hydra, which the hero Hercules vanquished in another myth.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And to provide a bit more evidence of his awareness of the story of Pegsus with Bellerophon and the Chimera, we have a depiction of Pegasus and Bellerophon, [from the Met](http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the-collection-online/search/459400):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Redon's &quot;Pegasus and Bellerophon&quot;][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My guess?  The work probably never had an actual given title.  I can't find any resource to establish this with certainty, but untitled works are hardly uncommon (and if it had a title, it would likely be in French).  So it's probable, instead, that the work is, in fact, intended to be Pegasus and *Chimera*, but has an unfortunate history of being *mislabeled*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/d38eS.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/xcTv4.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4622" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1006" RevisionGUID="1ddc5220-e786-4ec7-b0df-ec26480fe376" CreationDate="2015-07-10T09:03:19.973" UserId="42" Comment="added 28 characters in body" Text="To expand on C. M. Weimer's explanation, it may be that the monster depicted at the bottom is *indeed* Chimera.  This seems to be a subject that Redon was well acquainted with.  A [writeup from an auction](http://www.thecityreview.com/s01cimp2.html) in 2001 displays a similar work by Redon &quot;Pégase blanc,&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Redon's &quot;Pégase blanc,&quot;][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The similarity in the layout of the work seems quite striking to me, especially the undulating serpentine form of the Chimera half-obscured at the bottom.  The writeup includes a note that the bottom figure is often *mistaken* for Hydra, but is in fact Chimera.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Twisting on the ground below is the serpent Chimaera (sometimes misidentified as Hydra, which the hero Hercules vanquished in another myth.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And to provide a bit more evidence of his awareness of the story of Pegsus with Bellerophon and the Chimera, we have a depiction of Pegasus and Bellerophon, [from the Met](http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the-collection-online/search/459400):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Redon's &quot;Pegasus and Bellerophon&quot;][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My guess?  The work probably never had an actual given title.  I can't find any resource to establish this with certainty, but untitled works are hardly uncommon (and if it had a title, it would likely be in French).  So it's probable, instead, that the work is, in fact, intended to be Pegasus and *Chimera*, but has an unfortunate history of being *mislabeled*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/d38eS.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/xcTv4.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4623" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="53" RevisionGUID="f2ab6334-ae77-438a-8fce-634152347316" CreationDate="2015-07-10T09:50:57.910" UserDisplayName="user124" Comment="8" />
  <row Id="4624" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="479" RevisionGUID="4afbb871-2702-4637-bb9a-fd8ba6bdb542" CreationDate="2015-07-10T09:52:38.530" UserDisplayName="user124" Comment="9" />
  <row Id="4625" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="637" RevisionGUID="88d69bee-5ea5-473d-af17-6f3350dfa8d6" CreationDate="2015-07-10T09:53:16.783" UserDisplayName="user124" Comment="10" />
  <row Id="4627" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="974" RevisionGUID="db738b3d-eadb-41d4-a403-31b728b6ee38" CreationDate="2015-07-10T15:13:22.257" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="shortened quote" Text="I've delayed answering this question because I've been looking for an explanation of the symbolism behind the complicated manner of Lleu's death. I still haven't a satisfactory explanation from a reputable source, although I'm sure one exists, so this answer is incomplete. However, I think I've answered most of the original question, and I've taken a stab at the symbolism question. If anyone has any additional research, please let me know.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Why Lleu is so difficult to kill?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This story is a *heavily modified* version of the &quot;Tristan and Iseult&quot; archetype, in that there exists a king or ruler or giant who will die when their daughter is married. The ruler attempts to prevent his daughter from being married, but of course she eventually circumvents the ruler and get's married anyway, at which point the ruler dies. This story relates to death but also to rebirth; although the ruler dies, because the daughter marries the ruler's legacy continues, and the husband or son of the daughter replaces the ruler in the mortal world. (A slightly different version also exists: a prophesy says the ruler will die if he has a son, the ruler attempts to not have a son, he has a son anyway, and the son kills his father and takes his father's place.) Of the top of my head, [Perseus][1], [Tristian and Iseult][2], and [Culhwch and Olwen][3] are all examples of this type of story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To quote from [Roger Loomis' review of Math Vab Mathonwy, An Inquiry into the Origins and Development of the Fourth Branch of the Mabingogi][4] (I didn't want to read the entire book):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The chief discovery is the ultimate dependence of Math upon the Irish myth of Balor and Lug for its main outline (pp.  65-112).  Significant is the fact that this myth, surviving most clearly in folktales taken down in the nineteenth century, must have supplied the framework for a story composed as early as the twelfth century.  It is a variant of the widespread formula of the King and His Prophesied Death (pp.  8, 366), of which the Perseus and Oedipus stories furnish familiar examples.  The plot of the famous Irish story may be reconstructed as follows...  Now the Welsh tale is remarkable in that it preserves practically every essential feature of this outline in the right order, but every feature has been recast several times, and all the original cohesion and rationale has been lost.  Math is at pains to preserve the virginity of a damsel, but no reason is offered and the damsel is not his daughter.  The damsel is ravished by stratagem, but nothing is said of her son.  Instead, the woman who takes her place gives birth to a son, Dylan, and he promptly goes to the sea and, instead of drowning, swims like a fish.  But it is not he who becomes the hero of the story but one who develops from the caul or placenta which Dylan's mother lets fall at the time of his birth.  This caul develops into a second child, and upon him are sworn successively the three geasa that were sworn upon Lug: but it is his mother who swears them, and she obviously has no motive.  The way in which she is induced to name him Lleu Llaw Gyffes is obviously reminiscent of the way in which Balor was induced to name his grandson Lug Lamfada.  **Finally, it is not Lleu's grandfather who is slain by a special spear, but Lleu's rival, Gronwy**.  Except that the order remains intact, the elements could hardly have been juggled more drastically.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A common feature in these types of stories is that the father-figure is very difficult to kill. Here's an example from Culhwch and Olwen, a story from the same tradition as Math. (The story of Balor and Lug, upon which Math is based upon, also includes a father figure who is hard to kill).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And the third day they returned to the palace. And Yspaddaden Penkawr said to them, &quot;Shoot not at me again unless you desire death. Where are my attendants? Lift up the forks of my eyebrows which have fallen over my eyeballs, that I may see the fashion of my son-in-law.&quot; Then they arose, and, as they did so, Yspaddaden Penkawr took the third poisoned dart and cast it at them. And Kilhwch caught it and threw it vigorously, and wounded him through the eyeball, so that the dart came out at the back of his head. &quot;A cursed ungentle son-in-law, truly! As long as I remain alive, my eyesight will be the worse. Whenever I go against the wind, my eyes will water; and peradventure my head will burn, and I shall have a giddiness every new moon. Cursed be the fire in which it was forged. Like the bite of a mad dog is the stroke of this poisoned iron.&quot; And they went to meat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since Lleu takes the role of the father figure in this rearranged story, it also makes sense that he is hard to kill.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# An attempted explanation of the symbolism behind Lleu's position:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's important to know that Lleu seems to be associated with the sun. According to [Queen of the Night: Rediscovering the Celtic Moon Goddess][5]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the Mabinogi, Lleu Llaw Gyffes (Bright One of the Skillful Hand) is transformed into an eagle, residing for a period of time in the top of an oak tree. The eagle and the oak are symbols of a solar or celestial deity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found an article that [claims that the position that Lleu can be killed corresponds to something related to astronomy][100] (the hut to the sky, the tub/well to the milky way, the goat represents Capella, and Lleu to the constellation Perseus [Perseus seems to have a foot in the milkyway]). The article seems legit, and is definitely worth considering, but I worry that it doesn't seem to be verified by any academics. Here's a picture of the constellation Perseus (from [AstroPixels.com][7]):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![The constellation Perseus](http://astropixels.com/constellations/charts/images/Per_map.jpg)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another explanation (found in an article about Shakespeare!) ties the age of the spear to the creation of a new year (and perhaps to rebirth):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Blodeuwedd and her lover planned to slay her husband, the Welsh hero Lleu Llaw Gyffes; but he could only be killed by a spear forged &quot;in a year of Sundays&quot;; and so Lleu was struck down exactly one year after the plan was conceived. The death of the year equated the death of the husband; either event signals or is signaled by the Queen's or Lady's attachment to another man.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Aguirre, Manuel. [Life, Crown, and Queen: Gertrude and the Theme of Sovereignty][8].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And as a bonus, here's an article that elaborates on the connection between names, transformations, and the difference between Lleu's and Blodeuwedd's metamorphoses:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The metamorphoses of Lleu and Blodeu(w)edd confirm the theory that, in the Fourth Branch, names function to secure both body and identity. The scene in which Lleu spontaneously transforms into an eagle and the earlier scene in which he is named are linked in such a way that his name emerges as a crucial guarantee of human embodiment; by contrast, Blodeu(w)edd is renamed so that her metamorphosis can never be undone.  Having persuaded her husband, Lleu, to reveal how he may be killed, Blodeu(w)edd has Gronw ambush Lleu while he is demonstrating to his wife exactly the point at which he is at his most vulnerable. Gronw’s ambush prompts Lleu’s transformation: “Then Gronw rose up from the hill that is called Brynn Cyfergyr, and he got up on the end of one knee, and cast the poison-spear, and hit [Lleu] in the side, so that the spear shaft leapt from him and the head stayed in him. And then he went flying up in the shape of an eagle, and gave a terrible cry” (Williams 1951, 88). Although the text gives more details about the spear thrust than the metamorphosis, Lleu’s transformation clearly results from the entry of the spearhead into his body. This passage mirrors the episode in which the young Lleu is named. In this scene, disguised, Gwydion brings the boy to visit Aranrhod; when Aranrhod sees the boy hit a wren with surprising precision and comments on his dexterity, saying, “it is with a skilful hand Lleu can be killed only by a single blow from a spear made only during Sunday mass over the course of one year, and he must be neither inside nor outside, neither on horseback nor on foot; the inventive solution to this riddle involves Lleu’s standing with one foot on the edge of a roofed outdoor bathtub, the other on the back of a goat. The actions in both scenes are also described by identical verbs, bwrw (to throw, cast) and medru (to strike). Sheehan that the fair one hit it [ Ys llaw gyffes y medrwys y lleu ef ]” (Williams 1951, 80), Gwydion manipulates her comment to provide a name for his nephew, Lleu Llaw Gyffes (Fair-haired One of the Skilful Hand). Lleu’s name is also the key to his metamorphosis’s reversal. When Gwydion finds the eagle perched in a treetop, he sings three englynion , each time naming Lleu, until the eagle descends from the tree and alights on Gwydion’s knee; Gwydion is then able to strike him with the hutlath “so that he was in his own shape [ rith ]” (Williams 1951, 90). Lleu’s metamorphosis is consistent with those examined above, in that the narrator does not refer to Lleu by name until he is again in his own, human body. Lleu cannot regain his body until he regains his name: it is Gwydion’s ritualized poetic naming of his nephew together with a tap of the hutlath that restores Lleu to human form. Gronw’s skillful striking of Lleu causes Lleu to lose both name and form by reversing the subject positions (active/passive, striker/struck) of the scenario whereby he gained his name&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Sheehan, Sarah, [Matrilineal Subjects: Ambiguity, Bodies, and Metamorphosis in the Fourth Branch of the Mabinogi][9])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseus&#xD;&#xA;[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan_and_Iseult&#xD;&#xA;[3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culhwch_and_Olwen&#xD;&#xA;[4]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/2847153&#xD;&#xA;[5]: https://books.google.com/books?id=1l1yXq4xGHsC&amp;pg=PA153&amp;lpg=PA153&amp;dq=lleu+llaw+gyffes+eagle+symbolism&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=JFo9N9d_Hh&amp;sig=ejmr1zvfmO7oQcar6g4KWDbQjcQ&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=_xmKVcmTGsn2ggSS9IGADA&amp;ved=0CDIQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&amp;q=lleu%20llaw%20gyffes%20eagle%20symbolism&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;[6]: http://mabinogionastronomy.blogspot.com/2015/04/thedeath-of-lleu-llaw-gyffes-here-is.html&#xD;&#xA;[7]: http://astropixels.com/&#xD;&#xA;[8]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/518100&#xD;&#xA;[9]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/591089&#xD;&#xA;[100]: http://mabinogionastronomy.blogspot.com/2015/04/thedeath-of-lleu-llaw-gyffes-here-is.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4628" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1007" RevisionGUID="4dd89a69-49b2-4549-ba2d-1842f8b3ff46" CreationDate="2015-07-10T15:17:38.157" UserId="108" Text="The problem with this question is that it asks for comparisons to a &quot;canonical Chinese mythology&quot; which is not really a thing. However, the basic theme of traditional Chinese folklore does feature an emperor in heaven who is essentially a mirror of the emperor on Earth. The depiction of the Jade Emperor in *Journey to the West* matches much of this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**1. Slackers are punished severely.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We see this in, for example, the tragic love story of the [Weaver and the Cowherd](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Weaver_Girl_and_the_Cowherd). An ancient version of this story, [recorded in around 6th century](http://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=en&amp;res=983262), says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 天河之東有織女，天帝之子也。年年機杼勞役，織成雲錦天衣，容貌不暇整。帝憐其獨處，許嫁河西牽牛郎，嫁後遂廢機杼。天帝怒，責另歸東西，但使一年一度相會&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; On the east bank of the Celestial River, there is a weaver. She is the child of the Celestial Emperor. Year after year she toiled to weave celestial garments, looking busy and disheveled. The Emperor felt sorry for her loneliness, so he married her to the Cowherd from the west bank of the river. She stopped weaving after the wedding. The Emperor was enraged, and punished them by making them return to east and west separately. But he had them meet once per year.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here we see the Celestial Emperor reacting to her daughter &lt;s&gt;going on honeymoon&lt;/s&gt; slacking off with inhumane harshness. This is despite the marriage being his own idea and all her previous years of hard work. I would also argue this demonstrates inflexibility and a quickness to anger on the Emperor's part, just as you saw in the novel's version.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**2. The powers of the Jade Emperor is purely authority**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Jade Emperor is essentially the administrator of the heavenly court. Just as the Chinese would not expect the temporal emperor to personally arrest vandalising teenagers, the Jade Emperor metes out punishment and rewards not by doing any work himself, but by exercising his authority as the ruler of heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An example is the story of Lightening.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Once upon a time, Thunder worked alone, striking down people who were wasteful from the clouds. Back then, an impoverished but [pious](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filial_piety) woman struggles to provide her mother-in-law with the best. To save on costs, the woman serves the mother white rice, then retreats to the kitchen to eat only [bran](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bran) herself. The mother however suspected the pious woman of keeping the good food for herself.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So one day, she barged in to see for herself what the daughter has been eating. Discovering that the daughter-in-law has been eating bran, the mother was heartbroken. She told the daughter to dump the bran and come eat the good rice with her. Unfortunately, it was  a stormy night and Thunder was patrolling. Upon seeing the pious daughter throwing the bran away, he struck her down, thinking she was wasting perfectly good food.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When the Celestial Court heard of this miscarriage of justice, the Emperor was filled with great sympathy. To reward the daughter for her piety, he ennobled her in heaven as Lady Lightening. To prevent another tragedy like hers from happening, Lightening accompanies Thunder out on patrols, and illuminates the earth before the thunder strikes.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; That's why thunders are always preceded by lightening.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many variations to this story, but the ending is essentially identical: *the Jade Emperor gives a victim &quot;justice&quot; by using his authority as administrator of the Celestial Court* to give her a job in Heaven. Not to raise her from the dead, or give her family a fortune, or do anything for her really other than issuing a decree.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**3. The Jade Emperor is short-tempered.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Chinese have two ancient sayings regarding rulers: `伴君如伴虎`, literally, *accompanying the ruler is like keeping a tiger company*. Chinese Emperors were notorious for being ill-tempered with little regard for just about anyone else. Since social interactions in the Celestial Realm were imagined based on realities, the Jade Emperor seems to have inherited such traits.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An illustration of these traits in folklore [is the legend](http://ortho.clmed.ncku.edu.tw/~cjlin/news/8901/890112.htm) that the Immortal Poet [Li Bai](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Bai) was the [Great White Golden Star](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taibai_Jinxing) in heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Great White Golden Star works as an alchemist in heaven. Being an alcoholic, he got drunk one day and accidentally knocked over an alchemy pot. The Jade Emperor was enraged, and stripped him of his godhood, sending him to be reborn on earth as the poet Li Bai.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4629" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="974" RevisionGUID="89f5c876-e3c9-48df-bc11-33c8c497536e" CreationDate="2015-07-10T15:20:40.453" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="shortened quote" Text="I've delayed answering this question because I've been looking for an explanation of the symbolism behind the complicated manner of Lleu's death. I still haven't a satisfactory explanation from a reputable source, although I'm sure one exists, so this answer is incomplete. However, I think I've answered most of the original question, and I've taken a stab at the symbolism question. If anyone has any additional research, please let me know.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Why Lleu is so difficult to kill?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This story is a *heavily modified* version of the &quot;Tristan and Iseult&quot; archetype, in that there exists a king or ruler or giant who will die when their daughter is married. The ruler attempts to prevent his daughter from being married, but of course she eventually circumvents the ruler and get's married anyway, at which point the ruler dies. This story relates to death but also to rebirth; although the ruler dies, because the daughter marries the ruler's legacy continues, and the husband or son of the daughter replaces the ruler in the mortal world. (A slightly different version also exists: a prophesy says the ruler will die if he has a son, the ruler attempts to not have a son, he has a son anyway, and the son kills his father and takes his father's place.) Of the top of my head, [Perseus][1], [Tristian and Iseult][2], and [Culhwch and Olwen][3] are all examples of this type of story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To quote from [Roger Loomis' review of Math Vab Mathonwy, An Inquiry into the Origins and Development of the Fourth Branch of the Mabingogi][4] (I didn't want to read the entire book):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The chief discovery is the ultimate dependence of Math upon the Irish myth of Balor and Lug for its main outline (pp.  65-112).  Significant is the fact that this myth, surviving most clearly in folktales taken down in the nineteenth century, must have supplied the framework for a story composed as early as the twelfth century.  It is a variant of the widespread formula of the King and His Prophesied Death (pp.  8, 366), of which the Perseus and Oedipus stories furnish familiar examples.  The plot of the famous Irish story may be reconstructed as follows...  Now the Welsh tale is remarkable in that it preserves practically every essential feature of this outline in the right order, but every feature has been recast several times, and all the original cohesion and rationale has been lost.  Math is at pains to preserve the virginity of a damsel, but no reason is offered and the damsel is not his daughter.  The damsel is ravished by stratagem, but nothing is said of her son.  Instead, the woman who takes her place gives birth to a son, Dylan, and he promptly goes to the sea and, instead of drowning, swims like a fish.  But it is not he who becomes the hero of the story but one who develops from the caul or placenta which Dylan's mother lets fall at the time of his birth.  This caul develops into a second child, and upon him are sworn successively the three geasa that were sworn upon Lug: but it is his mother who swears them, and she obviously has no motive.  The way in which she is induced to name him Lleu Llaw Gyffes is obviously reminiscent of the way in which Balor was induced to name his grandson Lug Lamfada.  **Finally, it is not Lleu's grandfather who is slain by a special spear, but Lleu's rival, Gronwy**.  Except that the order remains intact, the elements could hardly have been juggled more drastically.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A common feature in these types of stories is that the father-figure is very difficult to kill. Here's an example from Culhwch and Olwen, a story from the same tradition as Math. (The story of Balor and Lug, upon which Math is based upon, also includes a father figure who is hard to kill).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And the third day they returned to the palace. And Yspaddaden Penkawr said to them, &quot;Shoot not at me again unless you desire death. Where are my attendants? Lift up the forks of my eyebrows which have fallen over my eyeballs, that I may see the fashion of my son-in-law.&quot; Then they arose, and, as they did so, Yspaddaden Penkawr took the third poisoned dart and cast it at them. And Kilhwch caught it and threw it vigorously, and wounded him through the eyeball, so that the dart came out at the back of his head. &quot;A cursed ungentle son-in-law, truly! As long as I remain alive, my eyesight will be the worse. Whenever I go against the wind, my eyes will water; and peradventure my head will burn, and I shall have a giddiness every new moon. Cursed be the fire in which it was forged. Like the bite of a mad dog is the stroke of this poisoned iron.&quot; And they went to meat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since Lleu takes the role of the father figure in this rearranged story, it also makes sense that he is hard to kill.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# An attempted explanation of the symbolism behind Lleu's position:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The easiest answer is that the position is the answer to the riddle: he can't be killed &quot;inside or outside,&quot; so he straddles both worlds and becomes vulnerable. However, this doesn't explain why he needs to do this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's important to know that Lleu seems to be associated with the sun. According to [Queen of the Night: Rediscovering the Celtic Moon Goddess][5]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the Mabinogi, Lleu Llaw Gyffes (Bright One of the Skillful Hand) is transformed into an eagle, residing for a period of time in the top of an oak tree. The eagle and the oak are symbols of a solar or celestial deity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found an article that [claims that the position that Lleu can be killed corresponds to something related to astronomy][100] (the hut to the sky, the tub/well to the milky way, the goat represents Capella, and Lleu to the constellation Perseus [Perseus seems to have a foot in the milkyway]). The article seems legit, and is definitely worth considering, but I worry that it doesn't seem to be verified by any academics. Here's a picture of the constellation Perseus (from [AstroPixels.com][7]):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![The constellation Perseus](http://astropixels.com/constellations/charts/images/Per_map.jpg)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another explanation (found in an article about Shakespeare!) ties the age of the spear to the creation of a new year (and perhaps to rebirth):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Blodeuwedd and her lover planned to slay her husband, the Welsh hero Lleu Llaw Gyffes; but he could only be killed by a spear forged &quot;in a year of Sundays&quot;; and so Lleu was struck down exactly one year after the plan was conceived. The death of the year equated the death of the husband; either event signals or is signaled by the Queen's or Lady's attachment to another man.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Aguirre, Manuel. [Life, Crown, and Queen: Gertrude and the Theme of Sovereignty][8].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And as a bonus, here's an article that elaborates on the connection between names, transformations, and the difference between Lleu's and Blodeuwedd's metamorphoses:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The metamorphoses of Lleu and Blodeu(w)edd confirm the theory that, in the Fourth Branch, names function to secure both body and identity. The scene in which Lleu spontaneously transforms into an eagle and the earlier scene in which he is named are linked in such a way that his name emerges as a crucial guarantee of human embodiment; by contrast, Blodeu(w)edd is renamed so that her metamorphosis can never be undone.  Having persuaded her husband, Lleu, to reveal how he may be killed, Blodeu(w)edd has Gronw ambush Lleu while he is demonstrating to his wife exactly the point at which he is at his most vulnerable. Gronw’s ambush prompts Lleu’s transformation: “Then Gronw rose up from the hill that is called Brynn Cyfergyr, and he got up on the end of one knee, and cast the poison-spear, and hit [Lleu] in the side, so that the spear shaft leapt from him and the head stayed in him. And then he went flying up in the shape of an eagle, and gave a terrible cry” (Williams 1951, 88). Although the text gives more details about the spear thrust than the metamorphosis, Lleu’s transformation clearly results from the entry of the spearhead into his body. This passage mirrors the episode in which the young Lleu is named. In this scene, disguised, Gwydion brings the boy to visit Aranrhod; when Aranrhod sees the boy hit a wren with surprising precision and comments on his dexterity, saying, “it is with a skilful hand Lleu can be killed only by a single blow from a spear made only during Sunday mass over the course of one year, and he must be neither inside nor outside, neither on horseback nor on foot; the inventive solution to this riddle involves Lleu’s standing with one foot on the edge of a roofed outdoor bathtub, the other on the back of a goat. The actions in both scenes are also described by identical verbs, bwrw (to throw, cast) and medru (to strike). Sheehan that the fair one hit it [ Ys llaw gyffes y medrwys y lleu ef ]” (Williams 1951, 80), Gwydion manipulates her comment to provide a name for his nephew, Lleu Llaw Gyffes (Fair-haired One of the Skilful Hand). Lleu’s name is also the key to his metamorphosis’s reversal. When Gwydion finds the eagle perched in a treetop, he sings three englynion , each time naming Lleu, until the eagle descends from the tree and alights on Gwydion’s knee; Gwydion is then able to strike him with the hutlath “so that he was in his own shape [ rith ]” (Williams 1951, 90). Lleu’s metamorphosis is consistent with those examined above, in that the narrator does not refer to Lleu by name until he is again in his own, human body. Lleu cannot regain his body until he regains his name: it is Gwydion’s ritualized poetic naming of his nephew together with a tap of the hutlath that restores Lleu to human form. Gronw’s skillful striking of Lleu causes Lleu to lose both name and form by reversing the subject positions (active/passive, striker/struck) of the scenario whereby he gained his name&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Sheehan, Sarah, [Matrilineal Subjects: Ambiguity, Bodies, and Metamorphosis in the Fourth Branch of the Mabinogi][9])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseus&#xD;&#xA;[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan_and_Iseult&#xD;&#xA;[3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culhwch_and_Olwen&#xD;&#xA;[4]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/2847153&#xD;&#xA;[5]: https://books.google.com/books?id=1l1yXq4xGHsC&amp;pg=PA153&amp;lpg=PA153&amp;dq=lleu+llaw+gyffes+eagle+symbolism&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=JFo9N9d_Hh&amp;sig=ejmr1zvfmO7oQcar6g4KWDbQjcQ&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=_xmKVcmTGsn2ggSS9IGADA&amp;ved=0CDIQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&amp;q=lleu%20llaw%20gyffes%20eagle%20symbolism&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;[6]: http://mabinogionastronomy.blogspot.com/2015/04/thedeath-of-lleu-llaw-gyffes-here-is.html&#xD;&#xA;[7]: http://astropixels.com/&#xD;&#xA;[8]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/518100&#xD;&#xA;[9]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/591089&#xD;&#xA;[100]: http://mabinogionastronomy.blogspot.com/2015/04/thedeath-of-lleu-llaw-gyffes-here-is.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4630" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1007" RevisionGUID="564e421d-8043-45f0-b912-91558077fe5f" CreationDate="2015-07-10T15:22:43.903" UserId="108" Comment="added 41 characters in body" Text="The problem with this question is that it asks for comparisons to a &quot;canonical Chinese mythology&quot; which is not really a thing. However, the basic theme of traditional Chinese folklore does feature an emperor in heaven who is essentially a mirror of the emperor on Earth. The depiction of the Jade Emperor in *Journey to the West* matches much of this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**1. Slackers are punished severely.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We see this in, for example, the tragic love story of the [Weaver and the Cowherd](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Weaver_Girl_and_the_Cowherd). An ancient version of this story, [recorded in around 6th century](http://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=en&amp;res=983262), says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 天河之東有織女，天帝之子也。年年機杼勞役，織成雲錦天衣，容貌不暇整。帝憐其獨處，許嫁河西牽牛郎，嫁後遂廢機杼。天帝怒，責另歸東西，但使一年一度相會&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; On the east bank of the Celestial River, there is a weaver. She is the child of the Celestial Emperor. Year after year she toiled to weave celestial garments, looking busy and disheveled. The Emperor felt sorry for her loneliness, so he married her to the Cowherd from the west bank of the river. She stopped weaving after the wedding. The Emperor was enraged, and punished them by making them return to east and west separately. But he had them meet once per year.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here we see the Celestial Emperor reacting to her daughter &lt;s&gt;going on honeymoon&lt;/s&gt; slacking off with inhumane harshness. This is despite the marriage being his own idea and all her previous years of hard work. I would also argue this demonstrates inflexibility and a quickness to anger on the Emperor's part, just as you saw in the novel's version.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**2. The powers of the Jade Emperor is purely authority**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Jade Emperor is essentially the administrator of the heavenly court. Just as the Chinese would not expect the temporal emperor to personally arrest vandalising teenagers, the Jade Emperor metes out punishment and rewards not by doing any work himself, but by exercising his authority as the ruler of heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An example is the story of Lightening.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Once upon a time, Thunder worked alone, striking down people who were wasteful from the clouds. Back then, an impoverished but [pious](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filial_piety) woman struggles to provide her mother-in-law with the best. To save on costs, the woman serves the mother white rice, then retreats to the kitchen to eat only [bran](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bran) herself. The mother however suspected the pious woman of keeping the good food for herself.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So one day, she barged in to see for herself what the daughter has been eating. Discovering that the daughter-in-law has been eating bran, the mother was heartbroken. She told the daughter to dump the bran and come eat the good rice with her. Unfortunately, it was  a stormy night and Thunder was patrolling. Upon seeing the pious daughter throwing the bran away, he struck her down, thinking she was wasting perfectly good food.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When the Celestial Court heard of this miscarriage of justice, the Emperor was filled with great sympathy. To reward the daughter for her piety, he ennobled her in heaven as Lady Lightening. To prevent another tragedy like hers from happening, Lightening accompanies Thunder out on patrols, and illuminates the earth before the thunder strikes.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; That's why thunders are always preceded by lightening.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many variations to this story, but the ending is essentially identical: *the Jade Emperor gives a victim &quot;justice&quot; by using his authority as administrator of the Celestial Court* to give her a job in Heaven. Not to raise her from the dead, or give her family a fortune, or do anything really that involves using any sort of divine power. Instead, he issued a decree.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**3. The Jade Emperor is short-tempered.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Chinese have an ancient saying: `伴君如伴虎`, literally, *accompanying the ruler is like keeping a tiger company*. Chinese Emperors were notorious for being ill-tempered with little regard for just about anyone else. Since social interactions in the Celestial Realm were imagined based on realities, the Jade Emperor seems to have inherited such traits.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An illustration of these traits in folklore [is the legend](http://ortho.clmed.ncku.edu.tw/~cjlin/news/8901/890112.htm) that the Immortal Poet [Li Bai](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Bai) was the [Great White Golden Star](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taibai_Jinxing) in heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Great White Golden Star works as an alchemist in heaven. Being an alcoholic, he got drunk one day and accidentally knocked over an alchemy pot. The Jade Emperor was enraged, and stripped him of his godhood, sending him to be reborn on earth as the poet Li Bai.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4631" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1007" RevisionGUID="d01f1522-65e9-4901-adac-f0f392baaaec" CreationDate="2015-07-10T15:29:21.890" UserId="108" Comment="added 77 characters in body" Text="The problem with this question is that it asks for comparisons to a &quot;canonical Chinese mythology&quot; which is not really a thing. However, the basic theme of traditional Chinese folklore does feature an emperor in heaven who is essentially a mirror of the emperor on Earth. The depiction of the Jade Emperor in *Journey to the West* matches much of this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**1. Slackers are punished severely.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We see this in, for example, the tragic love story of the [Weaver and the Cowherd](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Weaver_Girl_and_the_Cowherd). An ancient version of this story, [recorded in around 6th century](http://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=en&amp;res=983262), says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 天河之東有織女，天帝之子也。年年機杼勞役，織成雲錦天衣，容貌不暇整。帝憐其獨處，許嫁河西牽牛郎，嫁後遂廢機杼。天帝怒，責另歸東西，但使一年一度相會&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; On the east bank of the Celestial River, there is a weaver. She is the child of the Celestial Emperor. Year after year she toiled to weave celestial garments, looking busy and disheveled. The Emperor felt sorry for her loneliness, so he married her to the Cowherd from the west bank of the river. She stopped weaving after the wedding. The Emperor was enraged, and punished them by making them return to east and west separately. But he had them meet once per year.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here we see the Celestial Emperor reacting to her daughter &lt;s&gt;going on honeymoon&lt;/s&gt; slacking off with inhumane harshness. This is despite the marriage being his own idea and all her previous years of hard work. I would also argue this demonstrates inflexibility and a quickness to anger on the Emperor's part, just as you saw in the novel's version.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**2. The powers of the Jade Emperor is purely authority**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Jade Emperor is essentially the administrator of the heavenly court. Just as the Chinese would not expect the temporal emperor to personally arrest vandalising teenagers, the Jade Emperor metes out punishment and rewards not by doing any work himself, but by exercising his authority as the ruler of heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An example is the story of Lightening.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Once upon a time, Thunder worked alone, striking down people who were wasteful from the clouds. Back then, an impoverished but [pious](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filial_piety) woman struggles to provide her mother-in-law with the best. To save on costs, the woman serves the mother white rice, then retreats to the kitchen to eat only [bran](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bran) herself. The mother however suspected the pious woman of keeping the good food for herself.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So one day, she barged in to see for herself what the daughter has been eating. Discovering that the daughter-in-law has been eating bran, the mother was heartbroken. She told the daughter to dump the bran and come eat the good rice with her. Unfortunately, it was  a stormy night and Thunder was patrolling. Upon seeing the pious daughter throwing the bran away, he struck her down, thinking she was wasting perfectly good food.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When the Celestial Court heard of this miscarriage of justice, the Emperor was filled with great sympathy. To reward the daughter for her piety, he ennobled her in heaven as Lady Lightening. To prevent another tragedy like hers from happening, Lightening accompanies Thunder out on patrols, and illuminates the earth before the thunder strikes.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; That's why thunders are always preceded by lightening.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many variations to this story, but the ending is essentially identical: *the Jade Emperor gives a victim &quot;justice&quot; by using his authority as administrator of the Celestial Court* to give her a job in Heaven. Not to raise her from the dead, or give her family a fortune, or do anything really that involves using any sort of divine power. Instead, he issued a decree.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**3. The Jade Emperor is short-tempered.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Chinese have an ancient saying: `伴君如伴虎`, literally, *accompanying the ruler is like keeping a tiger company*. Chinese Emperors were notorious for being ill-tempered with little regard for just about anyone else. Since social interactions in the Celestial Realm were imagined based on realities, the Jade Emperor seems to have inherited such traits.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An illustration of these traits in folklore [is the legend](http://ortho.clmed.ncku.edu.tw/~cjlin/news/8901/890112.htm) that the Immortal Poet [Li Bai](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Bai) was the [Great White Golden Star](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taibai_Jinxing) in heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 李白是天上太白金星，負責昇爐煉丹。太白金星嗜好杯中物，有一天在喝得酩酊大醉之後踢翻了煉丹爐。玉帝大怒，將太白金星貶為凡人，降生於唐朝時的李白&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Great White Golden Star works as an alchemist in heaven. Being an alcoholic, he got drunk one day and accidentally knocked over an alchemy pot. The Jade Emperor was enraged, and stripped him of his godhood, sending him to be reborn on earth as the poet Li Bai.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4632" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1007" RevisionGUID="3b349122-e958-41b5-a55f-d237042d3780" CreationDate="2015-07-10T15:34:56.613" UserId="108" Comment="added 77 characters in body" Text="The problem with this question is that it asks for comparisons to a &quot;canonical Chinese mythology&quot; which is not really a thing. However, the basic theme of traditional Chinese folklore does feature an emperor in heaven who is essentially a mirror of the emperor on Earth. The depiction of the Jade Emperor in *Journey to the West* matches much of this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**1. Slackers are punished severely.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We see this in, for example, the tragic love story of the [Weaver and the Cowherd](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Weaver_Girl_and_the_Cowherd). An ancient version of this story, [recorded in around 6th century](http://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=en&amp;res=983262), says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 天河之東有織女，天帝之子也。年年機杼勞役，織成雲錦天衣，容貌不暇整。帝憐其獨處，許嫁河西牽牛郎，嫁後遂廢機杼。天帝怒，責另歸東西，但使一年一度相會&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; On the east bank of the Celestial River, there is a weaver. She is the child of the Celestial Emperor. Year after year she toiled to weave celestial garments, looking busy and disheveled. The Emperor felt sorry for her loneliness, so he married her to the Cowherd from the west bank of the river. She stopped weaving after the wedding. The Emperor was enraged, and punished them by making them return to east and west separately. But he had them meet once per year.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here we see the Celestial Emperor reacting to her daughter &lt;s&gt;going on honeymoon&lt;/s&gt; slacking off with inhumane harshness. This is despite the marriage being his own idea and all her previous years of hard work. I would also argue this demonstrates inflexibility and a quickness to anger on the Emperor's part, just as you saw in the novel's version.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**2. The powers of the Jade Emperor is purely authority**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Jade Emperor is essentially the administrator of the heavenly court. Just as the Chinese would not expect the temporal emperor to personally arrest vandalising teenagers, the Jade Emperor metes out punishment and rewards not by doing any work himself, but by exercising his authority as the ruler of heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An example is the story of Lightening.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Once upon a time, Thunder worked alone, striking down people who were wasteful from the clouds. Back then, an impoverished but [pious](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filial_piety) woman struggles to provide her mother-in-law with the best. To save on costs, the woman serves the mother white rice, then retreats to the kitchen to eat only [bran](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bran) herself. The mother however suspected the pious woman of keeping the good food for herself.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So one day, she barged in to see for herself what the daughter has been eating. Discovering that the daughter-in-law has been eating bran, the mother was heartbroken. She told the daughter to dump the bran and come eat the good rice with her. Unfortunately, it was  a stormy night and Thunder was patrolling. Upon seeing the pious daughter throwing the bran away, he struck her down, thinking she was wasting perfectly good food.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When the Celestial Court heard of this miscarriage of justice, the Emperor was filled with great sympathy. To reward the daughter for her piety, he ennobled her in heaven as Lady Lightening. To prevent another tragedy like hers from happening, Lightening accompanies Thunder out on patrols, and illuminates the earth before the thunder strikes.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; That's why thunders are always preceded by lightening.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many variations to this story, but the ending is essentially identical: *the Jade Emperor gives a victim &quot;justice&quot; by using his authority as administrator of the Celestial Court* to give her a job in Heaven. Not to raise her from the dead, or give her family a fortune, or do anything really that involves using any sort of divine power. Instead, he issued a decree.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**3. The Jade Emperor is short-tempered.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Chinese have an ancient saying: `伴君如伴虎`, literally, *accompanying the ruler is like keeping a tiger company*. Chinese Emperors were notorious for being ill-tempered with little regard for just about anyone else. Since social interactions in the Celestial Realm were imagined based on realities, the Jade Emperor seems to have inherited such traits.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An illustration of these traits in folklore [is the legend](http://ortho.clmed.ncku.edu.tw/~cjlin/news/8901/890112.htm) that the Immortal Poet [Li Bai](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Bai) was the [Great White Golden Star](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taibai_Jinxing) in heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 李白是天上太白金星，負責昇爐煉丹。太白金星嗜好杯中物，有一天在喝得酩酊大醉之後踢翻了煉丹爐。玉帝大怒，將太白金星貶為凡人，降生於唐朝時的李白&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Great White Golden Star works as an alchemist in heaven. Being an alcoholic, he got drunk one day and accidentally knocked over an alchemy pot. The Jade Emperor was enraged, and stripped him of his godhood, sending him to be reborn on earth as the poet Li Bai.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Somewhat of an overreaction." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4633" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1006" RevisionGUID="4a3dd8c7-ce1a-4605-965b-fd7a6b28ad01" CreationDate="2015-07-10T16:38:57.033" UserId="42" Comment="added 1062 characters in body" Text="To expand on C. M. Weimer's explanation, it may be that the monster depicted at the bottom is *indeed* Chimera.  This seems to be a subject that Redon was well acquainted with.  A [writeup from an auction](http://www.thecityreview.com/s01cimp2.html) in 2001 displays a similar work by Redon &quot;Pégase blanc&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;![Redon's &quot;Pégase blanc&quot;][1]  &#xD;&#xA;[Pégase blanc](http://www.odilon-redon.org/Pegase-blanc.html)&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The similarity in the layout of the work seems quite striking to me, especially the undulating serpentine form of the Chimera half-obscured at the bottom.  The writeup includes a note that the bottom figure is often *mistaken* for Hydra, but is in fact Chimera.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Twisting on the ground below is the serpent Chimaera (sometimes misidentified as Hydra, which the hero Hercules vanquished in another myth.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My guess?  The work in question probably never had an actual given title.  I can't find any resource to establish this with certainty, but untitled works are hardly uncommon (and if it had a title, it would likely be in French).  So it's probable that the work is, in fact, intended to be Pegasus and *Chimera*, but has an unfortunate history of being *mislabeled*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In further support, here are a couple of other works by Redon which depict Chimera explicitly, and show a tendency to diverge from more traditional renderings of the creature, and display strongly serpentine qualities:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt; &#xD;&#xA;![Redon's Chimera and Sphinx][2]  &#xD;&#xA;From [&quot;To Gustave Flaubert&quot; album](http://www.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/gallery/redon/gallery/5/page.html?p=7)  &#xD;&#xA;Le sphinx:  &#xD;&#xA;Mon regard que rien ne peut dévier, demeure tendu à travers  &#xD;&#xA;les choses sur un horizon inaccessible.  &#xD;&#xA;La chimère:  &#xD;&#xA;Moi, je suis légère et joyeuse!  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;![Redon's &quot;La chimère regarde avec effroi toutes choses&quot;][3]  &#xD;&#xA;[La chimère regarde avec effroi toutes choses](https://books.google.com/books?id=BOYHQAXdgIIC&amp;pg=PA139)  &#xD;&#xA;From the portfolio &quot;La Nuit&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And to provide a bit more evidence of his awareness of the story of Pegsus with Bellerophon and the Chimera, we have a depiction of Pegasus and Bellerophon, [from the Met](http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the-collection-online/search/459400):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;![Redon's Pegasus and Bellerophon][4]  &#xD;&#xA;[Pegasus and Bellerophon](http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the-collection-online/search/459400)&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/d38eS.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/cBAwq.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Anb7E.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/aVBim.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4634" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1006" RevisionGUID="315496a2-5564-4caf-883a-9dcf1e20e26f" CreationDate="2015-07-10T16:45:37.897" UserId="42" Comment="deleted 54 characters in body" Text="To expand on C. M. Weimer's explanation, it may be that the monster depicted at the bottom is *indeed* Chimera.  This seems to be a subject that Redon was well acquainted with.  A [writeup from an auction](http://www.thecityreview.com/s01cimp2.html) in 2001 displays a similar work by Redon &quot;Pégase blanc&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;![Redon's &quot;Pégase blanc&quot;][1]  &#xD;&#xA;[Pégase blanc](http://www.odilon-redon.org/Pegase-blanc.html)&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The similarity in the layout of the work seems quite striking to me, especially the undulating serpentine form of the Chimera half-obscured at the bottom.  The writeup includes a note that the bottom figure is often *mistaken* for Hydra, but is in fact Chimera.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Twisting on the ground below is the serpent Chimaera (sometimes misidentified as Hydra, which the hero Hercules vanquished in another myth.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My guess?  The work in question probably never had an actual given title.  I can't find any resource to establish this with certainty, but untitled works are hardly uncommon.  So it's probable that the work is, in fact, intended to be Pegasus and *Chimera*, but has an unfortunate history of being *mislabeled*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In further support, here are a couple of other works by Redon which depict Chimera explicitly, and show a tendency to diverge from more traditional renderings of the creature, and display strongly serpentine qualities:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt; &#xD;&#xA;![Redon's Chimera and Sphinx][2]  &#xD;&#xA;From [&quot;To Gustave Flaubert&quot; album](http://www.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/gallery/redon/gallery/5/page.html?p=7)  &#xD;&#xA;Le sphinx:  &#xD;&#xA;Mon regard que rien ne peut dévier, demeure tendu à travers  &#xD;&#xA;les choses sur un horizon inaccessible.  &#xD;&#xA;La chimère:  &#xD;&#xA;Moi, je suis légère et joyeuse!  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;![Redon's &quot;La chimère regarde avec effroi toutes choses&quot;][3]  &#xD;&#xA;[La chimère regarde avec effroi toutes choses](https://books.google.com/books?id=BOYHQAXdgIIC&amp;pg=PA139)  &#xD;&#xA;From the portfolio &quot;La Nuit&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And to provide a bit more evidence of his awareness of the story of Pegsus with Bellerophon and the Chimera, we have a depiction of Pegasus and Bellerophon, [from the Met](http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the-collection-online/search/459400):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;![Redon's Pegasus and Bellerophon][4]  &#xD;&#xA;[Pegasus and Bellerophon](http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the-collection-online/search/459400)&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/d38eS.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/cBAwq.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Anb7E.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/aVBim.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4639" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="974" RevisionGUID="a21dbeba-fb5b-4498-96ac-7490c2538e76" CreationDate="2015-07-12T01:41:42.393" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 310 characters in body" Text="I've delayed answering this question because I've been looking for an explanation of the symbolism behind the complicated manner of Lleu's death. I still haven't a satisfactory explanation from a reputable source, although I'm sure one exists, so this answer is incomplete. However, I think I've answered most of the original question, and I've taken a stab at the symbolism question. If anyone has any additional research, please let me know.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Why Lleu is so difficult to kill?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This story is a *heavily modified* version of the &quot;Tristan and Iseult&quot; archetype, in that there exists a king or ruler or giant who will die when their daughter is married. The ruler attempts to prevent his daughter from being married, but of course she eventually circumvents the ruler and get's married anyway, at which point the ruler dies. This story relates to death but also to rebirth; although the ruler dies, because the daughter marries the ruler's legacy continues, and the husband or son of the daughter replaces the ruler in the mortal world. (A slightly different version also exists: a prophesy says the ruler will die if he has a son, the ruler attempts to not have a son, he has a son anyway, and the son kills his father and takes his father's place.) Of the top of my head, [Perseus][1], [Tristian and Iseult][2], and [Culhwch and Olwen][3] are all examples of this type of story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To quote from [Roger Loomis' review of Math Vab Mathonwy, An Inquiry into the Origins and Development of the Fourth Branch of the Mabingogi][4] (I didn't want to read the entire book):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The chief discovery is the ultimate dependence of Math upon the Irish myth of Balor and Lug for its main outline (pp.  65-112).  Significant is the fact that this myth, surviving most clearly in folktales taken down in the nineteenth century, must have supplied the framework for a story composed as early as the twelfth century.  It is a variant of the widespread formula of the King and His Prophesied Death (pp.  8, 366), of which the Perseus and Oedipus stories furnish familiar examples.  The plot of the famous Irish story may be reconstructed as follows...  Now the Welsh tale is remarkable in that it preserves practically every essential feature of this outline in the right order, but every feature has been recast several times, and all the original cohesion and rationale has been lost.  Math is at pains to preserve the virginity of a damsel, but no reason is offered and the damsel is not his daughter.  The damsel is ravished by stratagem, but nothing is said of her son.  Instead, the woman who takes her place gives birth to a son, Dylan, and he promptly goes to the sea and, instead of drowning, swims like a fish.  But it is not he who becomes the hero of the story but one who develops from the caul or placenta which Dylan's mother lets fall at the time of his birth.  This caul develops into a second child, and upon him are sworn successively the three geasa that were sworn upon Lug: but it is his mother who swears them, and she obviously has no motive.  The way in which she is induced to name him Lleu Llaw Gyffes is obviously reminiscent of the way in which Balor was induced to name his grandson Lug Lamfada.  **Finally, it is not Lleu's grandfather who is slain by a special spear, but Lleu's rival, Gronwy**.  Except that the order remains intact, the elements could hardly have been juggled more drastically.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A common feature in these types of stories is that the father-figure is very difficult to kill, and can only be killed in strange and esoteric ways. Here's an example from Culhwch and Olwen, a story from the same tradition as Math. (The story of Balor and Lug, upon which Math is based upon, also includes a father figure who is hard to kill).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And the third day they returned to the palace. And Yspaddaden Penkawr said to them, &quot;Shoot not at me again unless you desire death. Where are my attendants? Lift up the forks of my eyebrows which have fallen over my eyeballs, that I may see the fashion of my son-in-law.&quot; Then they arose, and, as they did so, Yspaddaden Penkawr took the third poisoned dart and cast it at them. And Kilhwch caught it and threw it vigorously, and wounded him through the eyeball, so that the dart came out at the back of his head. &quot;A cursed ungentle son-in-law, truly! As long as I remain alive, my eyesight will be the worse. Whenever I go against the wind, my eyes will water; and peradventure my head will burn, and I shall have a giddiness every new moon. Cursed be the fire in which it was forged. Like the bite of a mad dog is the stroke of this poisoned iron.&quot; And they went to meat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since Lleu takes the role of the father figure in this rearranged story, it also makes sense that he is hard to kill.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# An attempted explanation of the symbolism behind Lleu's position:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The easiest answer is that the position is the answer to the riddle: he can't be killed &quot;inside or outside,&quot; so he straddles both worlds and becomes vulnerable. However, this doesn't explain why he needs to do this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've done quite a bit of research into the symbolism of Lleu's death, and having read several sources and talked to a few experts, I'm forced to conclude that no agreed upon explanation exists. However, I have seen a few theories, which I outline below:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's important to know that Lleu seems to be associated with the sun. According to [Queen of the Night: Rediscovering the Celtic Moon Goddess][5]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the Mabinogi, Lleu Llaw Gyffes (Bright One of the Skillful Hand) is transformed into an eagle, residing for a period of time in the top of an oak tree. The eagle and the oak are symbols of a solar or celestial deity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found an article that [claims that the position that Lleu can be killed corresponds to something related to astronomy][100] (the hut to the sky, the tub/well to the milky way, the goat represents Capella, and Lleu to the constellation Perseus [Perseus seems to have a foot in the milkyway]). The article seems legit, and is definitely worth considering, but I worry that it doesn't seem to be verified by any academics. Here's a picture of the constellation Perseus (from [AstroPixels.com][7]):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![The constellation Perseus](http://astropixels.com/constellations/charts/images/Per_map.jpg)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another explanation (found in an article about Shakespeare!) ties the age of the spear to the creation of a new year (and perhaps to rebirth):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Blodeuwedd and her lover planned to slay her husband, the Welsh hero Lleu Llaw Gyffes; but he could only be killed by a spear forged &quot;in a year of Sundays&quot;; and so Lleu was struck down exactly one year after the plan was conceived. The death of the year equated the death of the husband; either event signals or is signaled by the Queen's or Lady's attachment to another man.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Aguirre, Manuel. [Life, Crown, and Queen: Gertrude and the Theme of Sovereignty][8].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And as a bonus, here's an article that elaborates on the connection between names, transformations, and the difference between Lleu's and Blodeuwedd's metamorphoses:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The metamorphoses of Lleu and Blodeu(w)edd confirm the theory that, in the Fourth Branch, names function to secure both body and identity. The scene in which Lleu spontaneously transforms into an eagle and the earlier scene in which he is named are linked in such a way that his name emerges as a crucial guarantee of human embodiment; by contrast, Blodeu(w)edd is renamed so that her metamorphosis can never be undone.  Having persuaded her husband, Lleu, to reveal how he may be killed, Blodeu(w)edd has Gronw ambush Lleu while he is demonstrating to his wife exactly the point at which he is at his most vulnerable. Gronw’s ambush prompts Lleu’s transformation: “Then Gronw rose up from the hill that is called Brynn Cyfergyr, and he got up on the end of one knee, and cast the poison-spear, and hit [Lleu] in the side, so that the spear shaft leapt from him and the head stayed in him. And then he went flying up in the shape of an eagle, and gave a terrible cry” (Williams 1951, 88). Although the text gives more details about the spear thrust than the metamorphosis, Lleu’s transformation clearly results from the entry of the spearhead into his body. This passage mirrors the episode in which the young Lleu is named. In this scene, disguised, Gwydion brings the boy to visit Aranrhod; when Aranrhod sees the boy hit a wren with surprising precision and comments on his dexterity, saying, “it is with a skilful hand Lleu can be killed only by a single blow from a spear made only during Sunday mass over the course of one year, and he must be neither inside nor outside, neither on horseback nor on foot; the inventive solution to this riddle involves Lleu’s standing with one foot on the edge of a roofed outdoor bathtub, the other on the back of a goat. The actions in both scenes are also described by identical verbs, bwrw (to throw, cast) and medru (to strike). Sheehan that the fair one hit it [ Ys llaw gyffes y medrwys y lleu ef ]” (Williams 1951, 80), Gwydion manipulates her comment to provide a name for his nephew, Lleu Llaw Gyffes (Fair-haired One of the Skilful Hand). Lleu’s name is also the key to his metamorphosis’s reversal. When Gwydion finds the eagle perched in a treetop, he sings three englynion , each time naming Lleu, until the eagle descends from the tree and alights on Gwydion’s knee; Gwydion is then able to strike him with the hutlath “so that he was in his own shape [ rith ]” (Williams 1951, 90). Lleu’s metamorphosis is consistent with those examined above, in that the narrator does not refer to Lleu by name until he is again in his own, human body. Lleu cannot regain his body until he regains his name: it is Gwydion’s ritualized poetic naming of his nephew together with a tap of the hutlath that restores Lleu to human form. Gronw’s skillful striking of Lleu causes Lleu to lose both name and form by reversing the subject positions (active/passive, striker/struck) of the scenario whereby he gained his name&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Sheehan, Sarah, [Matrilineal Subjects: Ambiguity, Bodies, and Metamorphosis in the Fourth Branch of the Mabinogi][9])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseus&#xD;&#xA;[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan_and_Iseult&#xD;&#xA;[3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culhwch_and_Olwen&#xD;&#xA;[4]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/2847153&#xD;&#xA;[5]: https://books.google.com/books?id=1l1yXq4xGHsC&amp;pg=PA153&amp;lpg=PA153&amp;dq=lleu+llaw+gyffes+eagle+symbolism&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=JFo9N9d_Hh&amp;sig=ejmr1zvfmO7oQcar6g4KWDbQjcQ&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=_xmKVcmTGsn2ggSS9IGADA&amp;ved=0CDIQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&amp;q=lleu%20llaw%20gyffes%20eagle%20symbolism&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;[6]: http://mabinogionastronomy.blogspot.com/2015/04/thedeath-of-lleu-llaw-gyffes-here-is.html&#xD;&#xA;[7]: http://astropixels.com/&#xD;&#xA;[8]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/518100&#xD;&#xA;[9]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/591089&#xD;&#xA;[100]: http://mabinogionastronomy.blogspot.com/2015/04/thedeath-of-lleu-llaw-gyffes-here-is.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4640" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1009" RevisionGUID="ef378468-a100-4d24-94d5-caba1f78daec" CreationDate="2015-07-12T17:03:58.930" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="Multiple translations of the Táin Bó Cúalnge describe Fedelm as having three pupils in each eye:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; She had a blue-grey and laughing eye; each eye had three pupils.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Dunn](http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/Foretelling.html))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Each of her two eyes had three pupils.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Faraday](http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/tain_faraday.pdf))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is that?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4641" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1009" RevisionGUID="ef378468-a100-4d24-94d5-caba1f78daec" CreationDate="2015-07-12T17:03:58.930" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="Why does Fedelm have three pupils in each eye?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4642" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1009" RevisionGUID="ef378468-a100-4d24-94d5-caba1f78daec" CreationDate="2015-07-12T17:03:58.930" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="|irish|tain-bo-cuailnge|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4643" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1009" RevisionGUID="e5483d76-ba16-49f3-bc05-fb6d2b00b673" CreationDate="2015-07-12T17:09:40.150" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 308 characters in body" Text="Multiple translations of the Táin Bó Cúalnge describe Fedelm as having three pupils in each eye:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; She had a blue-grey and laughing eye; each eye had three pupils.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Dunn](http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/Foretelling.html))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Each of her two eyes had three pupils.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Faraday](http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/tain_faraday.pdf))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is that?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On a related note, Cuchulainn is also described as having multiple pupils in his eye:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and there were seven pupils in Cuchulainn’s royal eye, and two of these pupils were squinting, and the ugliness of it is no greater than its beauty on him&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Faraday](http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/tain_faraday.pdf))" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4644" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1010" RevisionGUID="8dcf5d79-5908-42c9-9f34-dd2bb97cdcc0" CreationDate="2015-07-12T20:12:13.340" UserId="398" Text="It should be noted that nearly all scholars from the nineteenth century are outdated in some major way. In fact, even scholarship from as late as the 70s need serious reworking due to new data as well as new understandings. Thus the march of progress.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Despite this, there is some good in Frazer. Beyond being entertainment and a wealth of literary inspiration, the basic school in which it is centered, the Cambridge ritualist school, still produces a viable interpretation of ancient myth. Problem is, history, archaeology, and comparative methods have moved far beyond what Frazer was even capable of offering. Barbara Kowalzig's *Singing for the Gods* is a great new (well, 2007) book showing how to do it right these days.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But as for Frazer's book in particular, he is perhaps most outdated by his excessive speculation and assumptions. It is one thing to formulate a hypothesis about an origin of a particular myth or folkloric tale, quite another to ignore many differences between cobbled 'parallels' and make what are quite fanciful reconstructions of &quot;savage humanity&quot; from them, generalizing without controlling for locally-produced or contextually-driven origins. It's not sound scholarship to assume your version first and then assume divergent versions diverge from your assumed version. Frazer is guilty of this to the extreme.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On top of that, he adds details where necessary to fit his theory. Even the central thesis, as many over the years have noticed, is quite an imaginative interpretation of a very innocent events. The question he originally attempted was good enough, essentially &quot;What's up with the priesthood of Diana of Nemi?&quot; What he ended up with—priest-kings, scapegoats, and complex, magical rituals—is missing from the scene, which, of course, must be why he generally dropped it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All this and we're ignoring the major shift in anthropology which realized long ago that the &quot;progress from savagery to civilization&quot; is a false progress (the &quot;stages&quot; are a great example of bad generalization based on one flawed sample), that primordial mythology of &quot;savage beings&quot; is imaginary, a tall tale of the Victorian world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for entertainment, it undoubtedly is, and its influence is legendary, but no, do not read it for an understanding the complex history of quite nearly anything he says. He has flashes of insight, but you'd be better off looking elsewhere.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you want to look at some criticism of Frazer, I'd recommend these articles:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beard, M. 1978. &quot;Judgments on James Frazer.&quot; *Daedalus* 107.4: 151–164.&#xD;&#xA;-- 1992. &quot;Frazer, Leach, and Virgil *Comparative Studies in Society and History* 34.2: 203–224.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Leach, E. 1961. &quot;Golden Bough or Gilded Twig?&quot; *Daedalus* 90: 371–399.&#xD;&#xA;-- 1965. &quot;On the 'Founding Fathers.' &quot; *Encounter* 25: 24–36.&#xD;&#xA;-- 1985. &quot;Reflections on a Visit to Nemi&quot; *Anthropology Today* 2–3.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Smith, J. Z. 1973. &quot;When the Bough Breaks.&quot; *History of Religions* 12.4: 342–371 (also found in his book, *Map Is Not Territory*)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4645" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1011" RevisionGUID="fa9c6983-d383-4a5b-bf87-2fff4f1ac4a3" CreationDate="2015-07-12T20:56:20.610" UserId="534" Text="There are two kinds of giants; frost giants and fire giants.&#xD;&#xA;Frost giants live in the realm called Jotunhiem, therefore frost giants&#xD;&#xA;and jotuns are the same thing.&#xD;&#xA;Fire giants live in another realm, Muspelhiem, the world of flame. Jotunhiem&#xD;&#xA;appears in the first Marvel Thor film. Muspelhiem has a cameo in the Dark World.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Trolls and ettins are another case altogether. They live in yet another&#xD;&#xA;realm called Nidaveler. They may or may not be the same race." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4646" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1011" RevisionGUID="cf23802f-af2b-42ee-86fc-2bab23da184c" CreationDate="2015-07-12T21:06:03.617" UserId="534" Comment="updated to fit with earlier comments and answers." Text="There are two kinds of giants; frost giants and fire giants.&#xD;&#xA;Frost giants live in the realm called Jotunheim, therefore frost giants&#xD;&#xA;and jotuns are the same thing.&#xD;&#xA;Fire giants live in another realm, Muspelheim, the world of flame. Jotunheim&#xD;&#xA;appears in the first Marvel Thor film. Muspelheim has a cameo in the Dark World.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Trolls  are another case altogether. They live in yet another&#xD;&#xA;realm called Nidavelir. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4647" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1012" RevisionGUID="6875d295-332f-42e3-84f0-940d7e829073" CreationDate="2015-07-12T21:19:08.410" UserId="534" Text="the answer is the question. Athena made plans of conquest before each battle.&#xD;&#xA;Ares just fought, because he was bloodthirsty." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4648" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1013" RevisionGUID="d9556deb-9b7a-4033-9652-aff76af87b0b" CreationDate="2015-07-12T21:42:30.290" UserId="197" Text="This question is [cross-posted at hu.wikipedia][w] where it's also on-topic, because that site has some mythology enthusiasts. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Does the Prose Edda have a translation to Hungarian?**  If it does, please give any details you know and availability of the volume it was published in.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know that it has translations to at least English, French, German, Norwegian, and Finnish.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Prose Edda is not the same as Poetic Edda, but a later work.  The Poetic Edda does have at least one Hungarian translation by Tandori Dezső, of which [the main text is available online at MEK][t].  The online copy does not appear to contain the Prose Edda.  (Correct me if I'm wrong here.)  I shall still look at translations of the Poetic Edda (there's at least two different books, one containing this translation, and one containing an unknown translation), both for its own right and because maybe they do contain or refer me to a translation of the Prose Edda.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The motivation for this question is http://meta.mythology.stackexchange.com/q/263/197&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[w]: https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Tudakoz%C3%B3#Pr.C3.B3zai_Edda_magyar_ford.C3.ADt.C3.A1sa&#xD;&#xA;[t]: http://mek.oszk.hu/00300/00377/&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4649" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1013" RevisionGUID="d9556deb-9b7a-4033-9652-aff76af87b0b" CreationDate="2015-07-12T21:42:30.290" UserId="197" Text="Does the Prose Edda have a Hungarian translation?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4650" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1013" RevisionGUID="d9556deb-9b7a-4033-9652-aff76af87b0b" CreationDate="2015-07-12T21:42:30.290" UserId="197" Text="|norse|gylfaginning|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4651" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1009" RevisionGUID="2bb073d8-c0bf-46b2-b4a9-44273651dd64" CreationDate="2015-07-12T23:15:32.157" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 62 characters in body" Text="Multiple translations of the Táin Bó Cúalnge describe Fedelm as having three pupils in each eye:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; She had a blue-grey and laughing eye; each eye had three pupils.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Dunn](http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/Foretelling.html))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Each of her two eyes had three pupils.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Faraday](http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/tain_faraday.pdf))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is that?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On a related note, Cuchulainn is also described as having multiple pupils in his eye:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and there were seven pupils in Cuchulainn’s royal eye, and two of these pupils were squinting, and the ugliness of it is no greater than its beauty on him&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Faraday](http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/tain_faraday.pdf))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the answer probably applies to more than one character." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4654" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1015" RevisionGUID="f97ab52c-3309-4213-825f-2b03863630a9" CreationDate="2015-07-13T21:20:10.210" UserId="42" Text="They couldn't be much *more* different, really.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ares was part of a dichotomy of war gods, comprised of himself and Athena.  While Athena represented wisdom, strategy and generalship in war, Ares represented base aggression and the brutal side of war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As such, he wasn't particularly well regarded by the greek populace, and [instances of his worship are relatively sparse](http://www.britannica.com/topic/Ares-Greek-mythology).  Usually, when he appeared in myths, he served as a foil to be conquered by a smarter (and better respected) opponent, such as [his defeat by Athena](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.5.v.html) in the Trojan War or his [humiliation at the hands of Hephaestus](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Odyssey8.htm#_Toc90267758).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;His name is believed to be from [the word &quot;are&quot;](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Ares), which means: &quot;bane, ruin&quot;, so from his start there is a clear indication of people's intended relationship with him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mars, on the other hand, among the most important gods of the Roman pantheon, and second (to Jupiter, of course) member of the [Archaic Triad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitoline_Triad), and the most significant of the gods of the Roman military.  He is a protector (Mars Quirinus) and father (Mars Pater) of the Roman empire.  Soldier swore oaths to him (Mars Gradivus) to be valorous in battle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Edith Hamilton's &quot;Mythology&quot; has this to say:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Romans liked Mars better than the Greeks liked Ares.  He never was to them the mean whining deity of the *Iliad*, but magnificent in shining armor, redoubtable, invincible.  The warriors of the great Latin heroic poem, the *Aeneid*, far from rejoicing to escape from him, rejoice when they see that they are to fall &quot;on Mars' field of renown.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An interesting take on the matter, is that perhaps, in terms of function, Mars and Ares aren't really the most directly comparable, but rather that Mars is more directly related to Athena, and that the inheritor of Ares's function is the goddess Bellona, as posited in this thesis:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Accordingly, Roman religion recognized a male warrior god with both agricultural/fertility and martial aspects.  Roman religion attributed a much more defensive mentality to Mars than the Greeks attributed to Ares.  With no push for imperialism in early Rome, the female goddess associated with rage (Bellona) did not emerge into prominence until Sulla.  &#xD;&#xA;In the observations made up to this point, a chiastic inversion occurs between Greek and Roman religions.  The inversion can take two different forms.  First, the Roman gods have switched genders from their earlier Greek counterparts...  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[War Gods in Archaic Greece and Rome](http://digitalcommons.trinity.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1002&amp;context=class_honors), Tyler Krentz&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4655" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1015" RevisionGUID="cae44ba6-24d3-41c0-a3b3-f3dda648c39a" CreationDate="2015-07-13T21:47:25.547" UserId="42" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="They couldn't be much *more* different, really.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ares was part of a dichotomy of war gods, comprised of himself and Athena.  While Athena represented wisdom, strategy and generalship in war, Ares represented base aggression and the brutal side of war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As such, he wasn't particularly well regarded by the greek populace, and [instances of his worship are relatively sparse](http://www.britannica.com/topic/Ares-Greek-mythology).  Usually, when he appeared in myths, he served as a foil to be conquered by a smarter (and better respected) opponent, such as [his defeat by Athena](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.5.v.html) in the Trojan War or his [humiliation at the hands of Hephaestus](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Odyssey8.htm#_Toc90267758).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;His name is believed to be from [the word &quot;are&quot;](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Ares), which means: &quot;bane, ruin&quot;, so from his start there is a clear indication of people's intended relationship with him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mars, on the other hand, is among the most important gods of the Roman pantheon, and second (to Jupiter, of course) member of the [Archaic Triad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitoline_Triad), and the most significant of the gods of the Roman military.  He is a protector (Mars Quirinus) and father (Mars Pater) of the Roman empire.  Soldiers swore oaths to him (Mars Gradivus) to be valorous in battle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Edith Hamilton's &quot;Mythology&quot; has this to say:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Romans liked Mars better than the Greeks liked Ares.  He never was to them the mean whining deity of the *Iliad*, but magnificent in shining armor, redoubtable, invincible.  The warriors of the great Latin heroic poem, the *Aeneid*, far from rejoicing to escape from him, rejoice when they see that they are to fall &quot;on Mars' field of renown.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An interesting take on the matter, is that perhaps, in terms of function, Mars and Ares aren't really the most directly comparable, but rather that Mars is more directly related to Athena, and that the inheritor of Ares's function is the goddess Bellona, as posited in this thesis:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Accordingly, Roman religion recognized a male warrior god with both agricultural/fertility and martial aspects.  Roman religion attributed a much more defensive mentality to Mars than the Greeks attributed to Ares.  With no push for imperialism in early Rome, the female goddess associated with rage (Bellona) did not emerge into prominence until Sulla.  &#xD;&#xA;In the observations made up to this point, a chiastic inversion occurs between Greek and Roman religions.  The inversion can take two different forms.  First, the Roman gods have switched genders from their earlier Greek counterparts...  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[War Gods in Archaic Greece and Rome](http://digitalcommons.trinity.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1002&amp;context=class_honors), Tyler Krentz&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4656" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="53" RevisionGUID="ad894876-9354-467a-ae51-d62d33d57685" CreationDate="2015-07-13T23:26:06.450" UserId="42" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|roman|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4657" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1016" RevisionGUID="0b400910-3f51-4851-afc8-ad6f8f08ce84" CreationDate="2015-07-13T23:53:09.347" UserId="183" Text="&gt; And there were the Three Unfortunate Disclosures when these were disclosed.&#xD;&#xA;And Gwrtheyrn the Thin disclosed the bones of Gwerthefyr the Blessed form the love of a woman: that was Ronnwen the pagan woman;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And it was he who disclosed the Dragons;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And Arthur disclosed the head of Bran the Blessed from the White Hill, because it did not seem right to him that this Island should be defended by the strenght of anyone, but by his own.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[The Welsh Triads](http://www.vortigernstudies.org.uk/artsou/triadstex.htm)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is clear that Arthur knew what he was doing when he disclosed the head of Bran, but the text says nothing about the other disclosers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did the other disclosers know that they committing the Three Unfortunate Disclosures? In other words, did they know that they were hurting the protections of Britain?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4658" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1016" RevisionGUID="0b400910-3f51-4851-afc8-ad6f8f08ce84" CreationDate="2015-07-13T23:53:09.347" UserId="183" Text="Were those who comitted the Three Unfortunate Disclosures aware of what they were doing?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4659" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1016" RevisionGUID="0b400910-3f51-4851-afc8-ad6f8f08ce84" CreationDate="2015-07-13T23:53:09.347" UserId="183" Text="|welsh|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4662" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="523" RevisionGUID="d9d1cae9-2544-4e66-8b19-98eb94ef4486" CreationDate="2015-07-14T15:59:43.783" UserId="42" Comment="Replacing link with one to Nancy Conner's book &quot;The Everything Classic Mythology Book&quot;, which appears to be the source of the quote." Text="Hephaestus and Medusa had a son named Cacus.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**Cacus was the son of Hephaestus and Medusa**. Inheriting the properties of fire from his father and monstrousness from his mother, Cacus was a fire-breathing monster who was sometimes described as a three-headed giant. He lived on human flesh and decorated his cave with the bones and skulls of his victims.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; source: [Cacus Versus Heracles by Nancy Conner, PhD](https://books.google.com/books?id=PGsRwPgxMikC&amp;pg=PT218#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false) &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How come Hephaestus and Cacus was shielded from being turned to stone? Does being a God shield them?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4663" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="637" RevisionGUID="bedf190c-6d1b-40e8-8310-5195e6fee617" CreationDate="2015-07-15T09:01:17.987" UserDisplayName="user124" Comment="10" />
  <row Id="4665" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1017" RevisionGUID="162ab3a2-6315-4a28-8c09-e01148ea502b" CreationDate="2015-07-16T14:49:42.207" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="In the Epic of Gilgamesh, Gilgamesh is given the title &quot;He Who Saw the Deep&quot; ([Gilgamesh][1]). What is the meaning behind that title?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.cidmod.org/sidurisadvice/Gilgamesh.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4666" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1017" RevisionGUID="162ab3a2-6315-4a28-8c09-e01148ea502b" CreationDate="2015-07-16T14:49:42.207" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="What does &quot;He Who Saw the Deep&quot; mean?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4667" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1017" RevisionGUID="162ab3a2-6315-4a28-8c09-e01148ea502b" CreationDate="2015-07-16T14:49:42.207" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="|gilgamesh|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4668" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="943" RevisionGUID="cd597a7f-d4d8-41a3-a65e-0042edd89b83" CreationDate="2015-07-16T17:38:20.703" UserId="57" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Yannis&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="4669" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1018" RevisionGUID="8989d9e3-dcf6-478b-a168-6241db6c009d" CreationDate="2015-07-16T20:32:29.420" UserId="183" Text="[This summary](http://mcgoodwin.net/pages/otherbooks/gilgamesh.html) states&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The story begins as if by a narrator of a later era. Gilgamesh had all knowledge and wisdom, he was &quot;he who saw the Deep&quot; [Deep=nagbu, the cosmic domain of the god of wisdom, Ea], &quot;surpassing all other kings&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also worth mentioning is that [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh) stats&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The later &quot;Standard&quot; version dates from the 13th to the 10th centuries BC and bears the incipit Sha naqba īmuru (&quot;He who Saw the Deep&quot;, in modern terms: &quot;He who Sees the Unknown&quot;).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; . . .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The older version begins with the words &quot;Surpassing all other kings&quot;, while the standard version has &quot;He who saw the deep&quot; (ša nagba īmuru), &quot;deep&quot; referring to the mysteries of the information brought back by Gilgamesh from his meeting with Uta-Napishti (Utnapishtim) about Ea, the fountain of wisdom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other translations, including [this one](http://king-of-heroes.co.uk/the-epic-of-gilgamesh/robert-temple-translation/prologue/), imply similar things:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He who saw everything in the broad-boned earth, and knew what was to be known  &#xD;&#xA;Who had experienced what there was, and had become familiar with all things  &#xD;&#xA;He, to whom wisdom clung like cloak, and who dwelt together with Existence in Harmony  &#xD;&#xA;He knew the secret of things and laid them bare. And told of those times before the Flood" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4670" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1018" RevisionGUID="1c3fba07-44df-4fbb-9824-4f70ae622f9f" CreationDate="2015-07-16T23:40:28.167" UserId="183" Comment="added 54 characters in body" Text="**It means that he learned great wisdom from Ea.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This summary](http://mcgoodwin.net/pages/otherbooks/gilgamesh.html) states&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The story begins as if by a narrator of a later era. Gilgamesh had all knowledge and wisdom, he was &quot;he who saw the Deep&quot; [Deep=nagbu, the cosmic domain of the god of wisdom, Ea], &quot;surpassing all other kings&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also worth mentioning is that [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh) stats&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The later &quot;Standard&quot; version dates from the 13th to the 10th centuries BC and bears the incipit Sha naqba īmuru (&quot;He who Saw the Deep&quot;, in modern terms: &quot;He who Sees the Unknown&quot;).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; . . .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The older version begins with the words &quot;Surpassing all other kings&quot;, while the standard version has &quot;He who saw the deep&quot; (ša nagba īmuru), &quot;deep&quot; referring to the mysteries of the information brought back by Gilgamesh from his meeting with Uta-Napishti (Utnapishtim) about Ea, the fountain of wisdom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other translations, including [this one](http://king-of-heroes.co.uk/the-epic-of-gilgamesh/robert-temple-translation/prologue/), imply similar things:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He who saw everything in the broad-boned earth, and knew what was to be known  &#xD;&#xA;Who had experienced what there was, and had become familiar with all things  &#xD;&#xA;He, to whom wisdom clung like cloak, and who dwelt together with Existence in Harmony  &#xD;&#xA;He knew the secret of things and laid them bare. And told of those times before the Flood" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4673" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1019" RevisionGUID="de9823e4-89af-4b65-af4e-de971c5c27a1" CreationDate="2015-07-17T03:09:24.937" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="In *The Epic of Gilgamesh*, Shamhat has intimate knowledge about Gilgamesh's dreams:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Before you even came from the uplands,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gilgamesh in Uruk was seeing you in dreams...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([The Epic of Gilgamesh][1]; dialogue spoken by Shamhat.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How does she know about Gilgamesh's dreams? Shamhat and Gilgamesh clearly know each other, but do they know each other well enough to discuss dreams?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.cidmod.org/sidurisadvice/Gilgamesh.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4674" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1019" RevisionGUID="de9823e4-89af-4b65-af4e-de971c5c27a1" CreationDate="2015-07-17T03:09:24.937" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="How does Shamhat know about Gilgamesh's dreams?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4675" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1019" RevisionGUID="de9823e4-89af-4b65-af4e-de971c5c27a1" CreationDate="2015-07-17T03:09:24.937" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="|gilgamesh|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4676" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1017" RevisionGUID="7e96e830-9a95-40f1-99ee-42f48f167144" CreationDate="2015-07-17T03:22:57.637" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited title" Text="What does Gilgamesh's title &quot;He Who Saw the Deep&quot; mean?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4677" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1020" RevisionGUID="d062386a-f138-447b-b959-3b07f911c1d0" CreationDate="2015-07-17T13:27:19.957" UserId="540" Text="It was built specifically to keep the minotaur in. If you are familiar with the story of the minotaur, it was the son of Pasiphae, who was the king of crete's (King Minos) wife. Every year Minos would sacrifice his best bull to the sea god Poseidon, but one year he didn't, so Poseidon punished him by making his wife mate with the bull he wouldn't kill, and give birth to a Minotaur. This means that the Minotaur is not only the son of the prize bull, but also royalty. He couldn't simply lock up something that had &#xD;&#xA;A) been sent as punish from the gods and &#xD;&#xA;B) Was royalty &#xD;&#xA;He only later used the labyrinth to feed prisoners to the Minotaur &#xD;&#xA;Hope this helped :)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4678" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1020" RevisionGUID="1acbe259-558c-4d67-9b4a-61e47b07ced3" CreationDate="2015-07-17T13:34:48.223" UserId="540" Comment="Improving post formatting." Text="It was built specifically to keep the minotaur in.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you are familiar with the story of the minotaur, it was the son of Pasiphae, who was the king of crete's (King Minos) wife. Minos wanted a sign from the gods that he was meant to rule, so Poseidon sent a great bull out of the sea, and told minos to sacrifice it to him. Minos liked the bull so much that he didn't want to sacrifice it, so poseidon took revenge by making Pasiphae fall in love with the bull. The bull in question is mentioned in a few other myths, and i believe it went crazy, and was killed by hercules as one of his labours, but don't quote me on that. This means that the Minotaur is not only the son of the prize bull, but also royalty. He couldn't simply lock up something that had:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. been sent as punishment from the gods&#xD;&#xA;2. was royalty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He only later used the labyrinth to feed prisoners to the Minotaur.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hope this helped :)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4679" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1020" RevisionGUID="1c4c21ee-1762-4793-bb08-2ac0080d1e15" CreationDate="2015-07-17T15:20:16.977" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="deleted 23 characters in body" Text="It was built specifically to keep the Minotaur in.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you are familiar with the story of the Minotaur, it was the son of Pasiphae, who was the king of Crete's (King Minos) wife. Minos wanted a sign from the gods that he was meant to rule, so Poseidon sent a great bull out of the sea, and told Minos to sacrifice it to him. Minos liked the bull so much that he didn't want to sacrifice it, so Poseidon took revenge by making Pasiphae fall in love with the bull. The bull in question is mentioned in a few other myths, and I believe it went crazy, and was killed by Hercules as one of his labours, but don't quote me on that. This means that the Minotaur is not only the son of the prize bull, but also royalty. He couldn't simply lock up something that had:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. been sent as punishment from the gods&#xD;&#xA;2. was royalty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He only later used the labyrinth to feed prisoners to the Minotaur." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4680" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1021" RevisionGUID="323d2014-e287-4aca-8f90-0491d9c02ca2" CreationDate="2015-07-17T16:23:04.153" UserId="398" Text="The King's Dream seems to be a prominent theme in the ancient world. For example, in the book of Daniel (in biblical literature), the troubling dreams of the kings are announced, though no details are given for the sake of the literature. The point is that the king is &quot;testing&quot; his subjects, and will reward the interpreter that both knows what the dream is and can interpret it. Such a test, though, is a concocted fantasy of the literature; the main takeaway for us is that royal dreams are shared. (For more on this point, see M. H. Henze 1999 [*The Madness of King Nebuchadnezzar*](https://books.google.com/books?id=u1By9tEjh6AC), Brill.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A similar trial is done in Herodotus' _Histories_, in which the Lydian king Croesus asks Greek oracles about a dream, and only Delphi both knows what the dream is and correctly interprets it. Again, the secrecy and test are fictional, but dreams being shared fits a larger pattern of dream reports in the Ancient Near East.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The standard reference for the so-called &quot;dream reports&quot; is Oppenheim's 1956 [*Interpretation of Dreams in the Ancient Near East*](https://books.google.com/books?id=hlxTywAACAAJ), which was followed up well by Robert Gnuse's 1996 *[Dreams and Dream Reports in the Writings of Josephus](https://books.google.com/books?id=l23258NI8nQC&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;source=gbs_ge_summary_r&amp;cad=0#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false)*, which is online if you want a fuller history.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for Oppenheim, I quote K. Bulkley, who summarizes the main point better than I could:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Oppenheim claims that almost all of these dream accounts have a primarily literary function, serving as plot devices used deliberately by the authors. Consequently, Oppenheim asserts that psychological inquiry into these dreams is vain, for it is highly unlikely, and impossible to prove, that these reports are based on genuine dream experiences (Oppenheim 1956, 185).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Bulkley then goes on, in fact, to examine Gilgamesh. She starts from where Oppenheim leaves off—that Gilgamesh fits this pattern—but then notes the differences, chiefly by observing that &quot;all the dreams in _Gilgamesh_) are evil dreams—frightening, confusing nightmares of struggle, violence, and death&quot; (161). This type of dream, like Nebuchadnezzar's in Daniel, &quot;require interpretation,&quot; and thus are not out of bounds to fall into the type that would be communicated as Gilgamesh does with Ninsun.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;K. Bulkey 1993, &quot;[The Evil Dreams of Gilgamesh: An Intersciplinary Approach to Dreams in Mythological Texts](https://books.google.com/books?id=oi0w-PKcjeQC&amp;lpg=PP1&amp;pg=PA159#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false),&quot; in C. Schreier Rupprecht ed. _The Dream and the Text: Essays on Literature and Language_, pp. 159-199. Albany." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4681" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1022" RevisionGUID="2e59523f-5171-45b0-a8ee-eb65332d7a9c" CreationDate="2015-07-17T17:11:51.037" UserId="42" Text="How the word here translated as &quot;deep&quot; should be translated is a somewhat contentious issue.  The word is *nagbu*, and there appear to be two main appropriate translations to consider.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Totality, all things&#xD;&#xA; - Abyss, or deep&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The former seems to be the most common in translations.  The latter seems to have been chosen here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While totality may be the most common in the numerous translations produced for this work, that may not mean it's strictly the best choice.  Generally, where I can find more in depth explanations on the translation of this particular passage, abyss seems to have been the preferred choice.  The reasons for this preference refer to usage patterns for the term nagbu, contextual arguments, and the likely reference to depths later in the story, when Gilgamesh meets Utnapishtim:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...the standard version's incipit is &quot;He who saw the deep&quot; (ša nagbu amāru). The Akkadian word nagbu, &quot;deep&quot;, is probably to be interpreted here as referring to &quot;unknown mysteries&quot;. However, Andrew George believes that it refers to the specific knowledge that Gilgamesh brought back from his meeting with Uta-Napishti (Utnapishtim): he gains knowledge of the realm of Ea, whose cosmic realm is seen as the fountain of wisdom.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[The Epic of Gilgamesh in Prose](http://www.ancient.eu/article/191/), Jan van der Crabben&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarly, John Gardner chooses &quot;abyss&quot; is his translation, but argues that the term may be used :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...*nagbu*, which we have translated &quot;the abyss&quot; for the many resorances that the term retains.  The term *nagbu* had a range of meanings, from &quot;spring&quot; and &quot;fountain&quot; and &quot;underground water&quot;--all of particularly great important in arid Mesopotamia, where water is life--to meaning found in poetic texts, &quot;totality,&quot; the all.  Even as the source of water, it is often used as an epithet of the gods, especially the god whose &quot;place&quot; is the *abzu* ... Ea, &quot;lord of the deep waters.&quot;   It is difficult to tell exactly whether Gilgamesh, in seeing the *nagbu,* has seen the source of waters or &quot;everything.&quot;  Our guess is that the term is used precisely to capture these multiple meanings.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Gilgamesh](https://books.google.com/books?id=yviB9uv3A0AC), John Gardner&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And Jorge Silva Castillo discusses usage patterns of the term, and context at length, in which he concludes in favor of &quot;abyss&quot;, in his article [&quot;Nagbu:  Totality or Abyss in the First Verse of Gilgamesh&quot;](http://www.jstor.org/stable/4200459):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...all these considerations lead me to prefer the equation of *nagbu* in the first hemistich of the poem with the Apsû in Tablet XI 273...Thus in my translation of the poem into Spanish I rendered the first verse &quot;Haré que el mundo conozca / a aquél que vio el abismo,&quot; i.e., &quot;Let me make known to the world / him who has seen the Abyss.&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[&quot;Nagbu:  Totality or Abyss in the First Verse of Gilgamesh&quot;](http://www.jstor.org/stable/4200459), Jorge Silva Castillo&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Given that this article addresses this question directly, there is more interesting material than I could quote, or even reasonably address.  *Do give it a read.*)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He also notes that French translators Tournay and Shaffer, while they ended up using the &quot;totality&quot; meaning in their translation, noted that the word may have been intended to be a &quot;jeu de mots&quot;, or play on words.  This is similar to the note by John Gardner above that the word could well have been chosen for it's multiple meanings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as the word choice of this particular translation:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I haven't found any direct explanation from the translator.  As stated in the quote above, though, Andrew George seems to have concluded that this phrase refers to the knowledge gained from Utnapishtim.  His choice of the word &quot;Deep&quot; seems to fall on the side of &quot;the abyss&quot;, while favoring a term usage which begs multiple interpretations, to maintain the possible uncertainty.  The word Deep is used on modern english to refer to [profound knowledge/wisdom](http://www.happysimpleliving.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/deepthoughts.jpg), or a physical quality of depth, or the sea, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Given the multiple meanings of *nagbu*, I would guess the use of such a loaded word with so many possible meanings is surely a deliberate one." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4682" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1022" RevisionGUID="ee5c88d3-ae23-43c9-9c36-f65f1bd79bdd" CreationDate="2015-07-17T17:51:20.157" UserId="42" Comment="deleted 23 characters in body" Text="How the word here translated as &quot;deep&quot; should be translated is a somewhat contentious issue.  The word is *nagbu*, and there appear to be two main appropriate translations to consider.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Totality, all things&#xD;&#xA; - Abyss, or deep&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The former seems to be the most common in translations.  The latter seems to have been chosen here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While totality may be the most common in the numerous translations produced for this work, that may not mean it's strictly the best choice.  Generally, where I can find more in depth explanations on the translation of this particular passage, abyss seems to have been the preferred choice.  The reasons for this preference refer to usage patterns for the term nagbu, contextual arguments, and the likely reference to depths later in the story, when Gilgamesh meets Utnapishtim:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...the standard version's incipit is &quot;He who saw the deep&quot; (ša nagbu amāru). The Akkadian word nagbu, &quot;deep&quot;, is probably to be interpreted here as referring to &quot;unknown mysteries&quot;. However, Andrew George believes that it refers to the specific knowledge that Gilgamesh brought back from his meeting with Uta-Napishti (Utnapishtim): he gains knowledge of the realm of Ea, whose cosmic realm is seen as the fountain of wisdom.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[The Epic of Gilgamesh in Prose](http://www.ancient.eu/article/191/), Jan van der Crabben&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarly, John Gardner chooses &quot;abyss&quot; is his translation, but argues that the term may be used :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...*nagbu*, which we have translated &quot;the abyss&quot; for the many resorances that the term retains.  The term *nagbu* had a range of meanings, from &quot;spring&quot; and &quot;fountain&quot; and &quot;underground water&quot;--all of particularly great important in arid Mesopotamia, where water is life--to meaning found in poetic texts, &quot;totality,&quot; the all.  Even as the source of water, it is often used as an epithet of the gods, especially the god whose &quot;place&quot; is the *abzu* ... Ea, &quot;lord of the deep waters.&quot;   It is difficult to tell exactly whether Gilgamesh, in seeing the *nagbu,* has seen the source of waters or &quot;everything.&quot;  Our guess is that the term is used precisely to capture these multiple meanings.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Gilgamesh](https://books.google.com/books?id=yviB9uv3A0AC), John Gardner&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And Jorge Silva Castillo discusses usage patterns of the term, and context at length, in which he concludes in favor of &quot;abyss&quot;, in his article [&quot;Nagbu:  Totality or Abyss in the First Verse of Gilgamesh&quot;](http://www.jstor.org/stable/4200459):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...all these considerations lead me to prefer the equation of *nagbu* in the first hemistich of the poem with the Apsû in Tablet XI 273...Thus in my translation of the poem into Spanish I rendered the first verse &quot;Haré que el mundo conozca / a aquél que vio el abismo,&quot; i.e., &quot;Let me make known to the world / him who has seen the Abyss.&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[&quot;Nagbu:  Totality or Abyss in the First Verse of Gilgamesh&quot;](http://www.jstor.org/stable/4200459), Jorge Silva Castillo&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Given that this article addresses this question directly, there is more interesting material than I could quote, or even reasonably address.  *Do give it a read.*)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He also notes that French translators Tournay and Shaffer, while they ended up using the &quot;totality&quot; meaning in their translation, noted that the word may have been intended to be a &quot;jeu de mots&quot;, or play on words.  This is similar to the note by John Gardner above that the word could well have been chosen for it's multiple meanings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as the word choice of this particular translation:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I haven't found any direct explanation from the translator.  As stated in the quote above, though, Andrew George seems to have concluded that this phrase refers to the knowledge gained from Utnapishtim.  His choice of the word &quot;Deep&quot; seems to fall on the side of &quot;the abyss&quot;, while favoring a term usage which begs multiple interpretations, to maintain the possible uncertainty.  The word Deep is used in modern english to refer to [profound knowledge/wisdom](http://www.deepthoughtsbyjackhandey.com/category/3x5/), or a physical quality of depth, or the sea, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Given the multiple meanings of *nagbu*, I would guess the use of such a loaded word with so many possible meanings is surely a deliberate one." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4683" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1022" RevisionGUID="20267ad8-57e1-4b8a-a548-dced0884c8b2" CreationDate="2015-07-17T20:20:00.507" UserId="42" Comment="Left a sentence half-finished there..." Text="How the word here translated as &quot;deep&quot; should be translated is a somewhat contentious issue.  The word is *nagbu*, and there appear to be two main appropriate translations to consider.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Totality, all things&#xD;&#xA; - Abyss, or deep&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The former seems to be the most common in translations.  The latter seems to have been chosen here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While totality may be the most common in the numerous translations produced for this work, that may not mean it's strictly the best choice.  Generally, where I can find more in depth explanations on the translation of this particular passage, abyss seems to have been the preferred choice.  The reasons for this preference refer to usage patterns for the term nagbu, contextual arguments, and the likely reference to depths later in the story, when Gilgamesh meets Utnapishtim:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...the standard version's incipit is &quot;He who saw the deep&quot; (ša nagbu amāru). The Akkadian word nagbu, &quot;deep&quot;, is probably to be interpreted here as referring to &quot;unknown mysteries&quot;. However, Andrew George believes that it refers to the specific knowledge that Gilgamesh brought back from his meeting with Uta-Napishti (Utnapishtim): he gains knowledge of the realm of Ea, whose cosmic realm is seen as the fountain of wisdom.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[The Epic of Gilgamesh in Prose](http://www.ancient.eu/article/191/), Jan van der Crabben&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarly, John Gardner chooses &quot;abyss&quot; is his translation, but argues that the term may have originally been used to intentionally convey multiple meanings:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...*nagbu*, which we have translated &quot;the abyss&quot; for the many resorances that the term retains.  The term *nagbu* had a range of meanings, from &quot;spring&quot; and &quot;fountain&quot; and &quot;underground water&quot;--all of particularly great important in arid Mesopotamia, where water is life--to meaning found in poetic texts, &quot;totality,&quot; the all.  Even as the source of water, it is often used as an epithet of the gods, especially the god whose &quot;place&quot; is the *abzu* ... Ea, &quot;lord of the deep waters.&quot;   It is difficult to tell exactly whether Gilgamesh, in seeing the *nagbu,* has seen the source of waters or &quot;everything.&quot;  Our guess is that the term is used precisely to capture these multiple meanings.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Gilgamesh](https://books.google.com/books?id=yviB9uv3A0AC), John Gardner&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And Jorge Silva Castillo discusses usage patterns of the term and context at length, in which he concludes in favor of &quot;abyss&quot;, in his article [&quot;Nagbu:  Totality or Abyss in the First Verse of Gilgamesh&quot;](http://www.jstor.org/stable/4200459):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...all these considerations lead me to prefer the equation of *nagbu* in the first hemistich of the poem with the Apsû in Tablet XI 273...Thus in my translation of the poem into Spanish I rendered the first verse &quot;Haré que el mundo conozca / a aquél que vio el abismo,&quot; i.e., &quot;Let me make known to the world / him who has seen the Abyss.&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[&quot;Nagbu:  Totality or Abyss in the First Verse of Gilgamesh&quot;](http://www.jstor.org/stable/4200459), Jorge Silva Castillo&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Given that this article addresses this question directly, there is more interesting material than I could quote, or even reasonably address.  *Do give it a read.*)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He also notes that French translators Tournay and Shaffer, while they ended up using the &quot;totality&quot; meaning in their translation, noted that the word may have been intended to be a &quot;jeu de mots&quot;, or play on words.  This is similar to the note by John Gardner above that the word could well have been chosen for it's multiple meanings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as the word choice of this particular translation:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I haven't found any direct explanation from the translator.  As stated in the quote above, though, Andrew George seems to have concluded that this phrase refers to the knowledge gained from Utnapishtim.  His choice of the word &quot;Deep&quot; seems to fall on the side of &quot;the abyss&quot;, while favoring a term usage which begs multiple interpretations, to maintain the possible uncertainty.  The word Deep is used in modern english to refer to [profound knowledge/wisdom](http://www.deepthoughtsbyjackhandey.com/category/3x5/), or a physical quality of depth, or the sea, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Given the multiple meanings of *nagbu*, I would guess the use of such a loaded word with so many possible meanings is surely a deliberate one." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4684" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1022" RevisionGUID="feb402b9-4b1c-49e1-a2e6-0d0f7d630337" CreationDate="2015-07-17T23:18:59.770" UserId="42" Comment="Fixing some confusing sentence construction." Text="How that word, here translated as &quot;deep&quot;, should be translated is a somewhat contentious issue.  The word is *nagbu*, and there appear to be two main translations to consider.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Totality, all things&#xD;&#xA; - Abyss, or deep&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The former seems to be the most common in translations.  The latter was chosen here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While totality may be the most common in the many translations of Gilgamesh, that may not mean it's strictly the correct choice.  Generally, where I can find more in depth explanations on the translation of this particular passage, abyss is often the preferred choice.  Their reasoning for the preference refers to usage patterns of the term nagbu in the text, contextual arguments, and the observation that it is reasonably likely to be a reference to the depths appearing later in the story, when Gilgamesh meets Utnapishtim:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...the standard version's incipit is &quot;He who saw the deep&quot; (ša nagbu amāru). The Akkadian word nagbu, &quot;deep&quot;, is probably to be interpreted here as referring to &quot;unknown mysteries&quot;. However, Andrew George believes that it refers to the specific knowledge that Gilgamesh brought back from his meeting with Uta-Napishti (Utnapishtim): he gains knowledge of the realm of Ea, whose cosmic realm is seen as the fountain of wisdom.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[The Epic of Gilgamesh in Prose](http://www.ancient.eu/article/191/), Jan van der Crabben&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarly, John Gardner chooses &quot;abyss&quot; is his translation, but argues that the term may have originally been used to intentionally convey multiple meanings:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...*nagbu*, which we have translated &quot;the abyss&quot; for the many resorances that the term retains.  The term *nagbu* had a range of meanings, from &quot;spring&quot; and &quot;fountain&quot; and &quot;underground water&quot;--all of particularly great important in arid Mesopotamia, where water is life--to meaning found in poetic texts, &quot;totality,&quot; the all.  Even as the source of water, it is often used as an epithet of the gods, especially the god whose &quot;place&quot; is the *abzu* ... Ea, &quot;lord of the deep waters.&quot;   It is difficult to tell exactly whether Gilgamesh, in seeing the *nagbu,* has seen the source of waters or &quot;everything.&quot;  Our guess is that the term is used precisely to capture these multiple meanings.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Gilgamesh](https://books.google.com/books?id=yviB9uv3A0AC), John Gardner&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And Jorge Silva Castillo discusses usage patterns of the term and context at length, in which he concludes in favor of &quot;abyss&quot;, in his article [&quot;Nagbu:  Totality or Abyss in the First Verse of Gilgamesh&quot;](http://www.jstor.org/stable/4200459):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...all these considerations lead me to prefer the equation of *nagbu* in the first hemistich of the poem with the Apsû in Tablet XI 273...Thus in my translation of the poem into Spanish I rendered the first verse &quot;Haré que el mundo conozca / a aquél que vio el abismo,&quot; i.e., &quot;Let me make known to the world / him who has seen the Abyss.&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[&quot;Nagbu:  Totality or Abyss in the First Verse of Gilgamesh&quot;](http://www.jstor.org/stable/4200459), Jorge Silva Castillo&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Given that this article addresses this question directly, there is more interesting material than I could quote, or even reasonably address.  *Do give it a read.*)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He also notes that French translators Tournay and Shaffer, while they ended up using the &quot;totality&quot; meaning in their translation, noted that the word may have been intended to be a &quot;jeu de mots&quot;, or play on words.  This is similar to the note by John Gardner above that the word could well have been chosen for it's multiple meanings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as the word choice of this particular translation:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I haven't found any direct explanation from the translator.  As stated in the first quote above, though, Andrew George seems to have concluded that this phrase refers primarily to the knowledge gained with Utnapishtim.  His choice of the word &quot;Deep&quot; seems to fall on the side of &quot;the abyss&quot;, while favoring a term usage which begs multiple interpretations, to maintain the possible uncertainty.  The word Deep is used in modern english to refer to [profound knowledge/wisdom](http://www.deepthoughtsbyjackhandey.com/category/3x5/), or a physical quality of depth, or the sea, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Given the multiple meanings of *nagbu*, I would guess the use of such a loaded word with so many possible meanings is a deliberate one." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4685" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="216" RevisionGUID="5294daee-8b76-4ded-9b37-3f6a5c69f990" CreationDate="2015-07-18T06:28:15.177" UserDisplayName="user124" Comment="11" />
  <row Id="4686" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="53" RevisionGUID="3288c9b2-3d40-41fe-852d-7ad3441aa75f" CreationDate="2015-07-18T06:29:49.410" UserDisplayName="user124" Comment="8" />
  <row Id="4687" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="599" RevisionGUID="4e7601dc-9112-4d2c-ab6b-a3749cd0d7d9" CreationDate="2015-07-18T06:33:06.473" UserDisplayName="user124" Comment="12" />
  <row Id="4688" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="479" RevisionGUID="ab15535e-6d41-48f5-9eff-c2b7672f02cf" CreationDate="2015-07-18T11:42:54.520" UserId="-1" Comment="9" />
  <row Id="4689" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1023" RevisionGUID="7f482aa6-fc45-4e36-86e6-a80734f93fa2" CreationDate="2015-07-18T15:53:03.390" UserId="36" Text="Depending on what stories you read or movies you watch, vampires will and won't have reflections.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But what is the earliest reference to this particular myth and do we know it's origin?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4690" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1023" RevisionGUID="7f482aa6-fc45-4e36-86e6-a80734f93fa2" CreationDate="2015-07-18T15:53:03.390" UserId="36" Text="Origin of the 'vampire's have no reflection' myth" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4691" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1023" RevisionGUID="7f482aa6-fc45-4e36-86e6-a80734f93fa2" CreationDate="2015-07-18T15:53:03.390" UserId="36" Text="|vampires|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4692" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1024" RevisionGUID="517d4998-7dda-4ca7-be94-a4485813c21c" CreationDate="2015-07-18T17:29:27.157" UserId="545" Text="In many cases, a mythos can be seen as an allegory. For example, the biblical episode of Judith and Holofernes can be seen as the eradication of pride, accomplished at all costs, emphasizing the problem of *superbia* and the importance of its removing. The decapitation theme associated with the annihilation of pride can be also found in the Greek, Mesopotamian and even Kurdish tradition, and most likely in others I am not aware of.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going back to my question after having defined what I am looking for, is there any allegorical reading of the destruction of Troy? That is, has any mythologist or philologist found any, so to speak, metaphysical (Aristoteles is turning in its tomb right now) interpretation of the leveling of the Dardan city?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4693" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1024" RevisionGUID="517d4998-7dda-4ca7-be94-a4485813c21c" CreationDate="2015-07-18T17:29:27.157" UserId="545" Text="Is there an allegorical meaning associated with the destruction of Troy?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4694" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1024" RevisionGUID="517d4998-7dda-4ca7-be94-a4485813c21c" CreationDate="2015-07-18T17:29:27.157" UserId="545" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4695" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1024" RevisionGUID="2a427457-119b-47c6-a645-4a2ed877f525" CreationDate="2015-07-18T17:36:28.860" UserId="57" Comment="edited body" Text="In many cases, a mythos can be seen as an allegory. For example, the biblical episode of Judith and Holofernes can be seen as the eradication of pride, accomplished at all costs, emphasizing the problem of *superbia* and the importance of its removing. The decapitation theme associated with the annihilation of pride can be also found in the Greek, Mesopotamian and even Kurdish tradition, and most likely in others I am not aware of.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going back to my question after having defined what I am looking for, is there any allegorical reading of the destruction of Troy? That is, has any mythologist or philologist found any, so to speak, metaphysical (Aristoteles is turning in his tomb right now) interpretation of the leveling of the Dardan city?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4696" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1025" RevisionGUID="6dc8f3d0-c2fe-4675-a885-e9621366341a" CreationDate="2015-07-18T17:52:00.500" UserDisplayName="anon" Text="I am looking for a more concrete definition of what an eastern sage is and an explanation of the background of the eastern sage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Many translations of eastern martial arts feature sages. They are generally people who have &quot;transcended&quot; humanity, possessing supernatural powers, and very long lifespans, but short of godhood. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is opposed to the traditional western definition of a sage, which is a very wise and knowledgeable person, with connotations of great age, but still very much human. I am not looking for more information on this type of sage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've tagged this as Chinese, but I've seen references to sages in many Asian cultures including Japanese and Korean as well." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4697" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1025" RevisionGUID="6dc8f3d0-c2fe-4675-a885-e9621366341a" CreationDate="2015-07-18T17:52:00.500" UserDisplayName="anon" Text="What is the meaning of Sage in respect of eastern folklore?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4698" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1025" RevisionGUID="6dc8f3d0-c2fe-4675-a885-e9621366341a" CreationDate="2015-07-18T17:52:00.500" UserDisplayName="anon" Text="|chinese|origins|history|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4699" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="1016" RevisionGUID="814edc52-69e9-4988-8c93-a7949be2c617" CreationDate="2015-07-18T22:08:12.660" UserDisplayName="user124" Comment="13" />
  <row Id="4702" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1027" RevisionGUID="25e01549-ac39-43b1-bf32-81ccc37f4bcc" CreationDate="2015-07-19T18:52:22.680" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="(Note: this &quot;Lady of the Lake&quot; is different from the [tag:Arthurian] &quot;Lady of the Lake.&quot;)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the welsh story associated with [the lake Llyn y Fan Fach][1], Gwyn attempts to woo the &quot;Lady of the Lake&quot; by giving her bread.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He stood on the brink, gazing fixedly at the maiden, and straightway knew that he loved her. As he gazed, he unconsciously held out to her the barley-bread and cheese which his mother had given him before he left home. The lady gradually glided towards him, but shook her head as he continued to hold out his hand, and saying:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  O thou of the crimped bread,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  It is not easy to catch me,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Thomas, Jenkin, The Welsh Fairy Book [[available online][2]].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gwyn tries to woo her with completely baked bread and with unbaked dough. Neither attempt is successful. However, when he uses half baked bread, he is successful:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The shades of night began to fall, and Gwyn was about to depart in sore disappointment, when, casting a last farewell look over the lake, he beheld some cows walking on its surface. The sight of these beasts made him hope that they would be followed by the Lady of the Lake, and, sure enough, before long the maiden emerged from the water. She seemed lovelier than ever, and Gwyn was almost beside himself with joy at her appearance. His rapture increased when he saw that she was gradually approaching the land, and he rushed into the water to meet her, holding out the half-baked bread in his hand. She, smiling, took his gift, and allowed him to lead her to dry land. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What's so special about half baked bread?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llyn_y_Fan_Fach&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/wfb/wfb03.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4703" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1027" RevisionGUID="25e01549-ac39-43b1-bf32-81ccc37f4bcc" CreationDate="2015-07-19T18:52:22.680" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="Why does the Lady of the Lake only accept half baked bread from Gwyn?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4704" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1027" RevisionGUID="25e01549-ac39-43b1-bf32-81ccc37f4bcc" CreationDate="2015-07-19T18:52:22.680" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="|welsh|llyn-y-fan-fach|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4705" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1028" RevisionGUID="ec1980c4-1525-4af3-9552-81377a679283" CreationDate="2015-07-19T19:21:12.927" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="Gwyn is human, but the &quot;Lady of the Lake&quot; is from the supernatural world. The half baked bread symbolises this: the bread is a union between two opposites, just like Gwyn's marriage. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The idea of bridging the human and supernatural worlds is a common theme in Celtic literature. This theme is especially prominent in stories about supernatural marriages, where the suitor has to venture into the supernatural world and bring back a wife. The father of the bride, and by extension the supernatural world, is usually hostile to the suitor's attempt attempt, and sets various challenges before the suitor (examples in this story being the bread challenge and the Gwyn's task to identify his bride from two identical woman). Thus, these types of stories have real world counterparts; the half baked bread can also be interpreted as harmonising the world of the husband with the world of the wife.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Alwyn Rees, Brinley Rees, Celtic Heritage: [Ancient Tradition in Ireland and Wales][2].  &#xD;&#xA;Juliette Wood, *[The Fairy Bride Legend in Wales][1]*.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/1261034&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.amazon.com/Celtic-Heritage-Alwyn-Rees/dp/0500270392" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4708" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1024" RevisionGUID="530ad252-e0f6-4297-b1bd-a33108ed8def" CreationDate="2015-07-20T13:40:27.400" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4709" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="1023" RevisionGUID="8c7d7a6b-2c1b-45b9-8876-a327d07cdca5" CreationDate="2015-07-20T16:39:34.483" UserId="36" Comment="14" />
  <row Id="4713" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1030" RevisionGUID="2b838713-f1fe-4d05-b1ef-82c69b4e5154" CreationDate="2015-07-21T05:37:49.700" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="It turns out that characters with multiple pupils in their eyes are somewhat common in Irish literature (such characters sometimes appear in non-Irish works as well). However, the meaning of this varies between characters. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In some instances, having multiple pupils is a sign that the character has an &quot;evil eye.&quot; For example, in the Togail Bruidne Da Derga (The Destruction of Da Derga's Hostel), a character with multiple pupils causes a juggler to drop his objects:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A man ungentle, huge, fearful, uncouth was Ingcél. A single eye in his head, as broad as an oxhide, as black as a chafer, with three pupils therein.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When he was swiftest, I beheld him at the feat, and as I looked, they uttered a cry about him and they were all on the house-floor. Then the Prince who is in the house said to the juggler: ‘We have come together since thou wast a little boy, and till to-night thy juggling never failed thee.’’&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ‘Alas, alas, fair master Conaire, good cause have I. A keen, angry eye looked at me: a man with the third of a pupil which sees the going of the nine bands. Not much to him is that keen, wrathful sight! Battles are fought with it,’ saith he. ‘It should be known till doomsday that there is evil in front of the Hostel.’&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Online translation of The Destruction of Da Derga's Hostel][1])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, in works like the Táin Bó Cúalnge, having multiple pupils can be a sign of beauty or supernatural sight (or both). To quote from this fantastic paper titled ['The Evil Eye' in early Irish literature and law][2] (which is essentially the source for this entire answer):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The version that Ingcél has seven pupils in his eye has a parallel&#xD;&#xA;in descriptions of Cormac mac Airt and Cú Chulainn: they are&#xD;&#xA;said to have seven pupils in each eye. In both cases, this is explictly&#xD;&#xA;qualified as a sign of beauty. In Táin Bó Cúailnge Recension I, two of&#xD;&#xA;Cú Chulainn’s pupils are described as squinting, but the text supplies the&#xD;&#xA;comment that this was more an adornment than a disfigurement. The&#xD;&#xA;tradition of three pupils in Ingcél’s eye could be compared with another&#xD;&#xA;instance in Táin Bó Cúailnge Recension I: after the description of the&#xD;&#xA;poetess and prophetess Fedelm as a beautiful woman, it is said that she&#xD;&#xA;carries a weaver’s beam and has three pupils in each eye. There is no&#xD;&#xA;explanation offered of this characteristic: it could be a sign of beauty&#xD;&#xA;and it could be a sign of her supernatural sight. The latter is more&#xD;&#xA;probable, because the characteristic is separated from the description of&#xD;&#xA;her looks by the mention of the weaver’s beam. The weaver’s beam has&#xD;&#xA;been interpreted as a supernatural tool for prophesy. The triple pupils&#xD;&#xA;could, therefore, very well be a symbol of her clairvoyance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Borsje, Jacqueline; Kelly, Fergus: ['The evil eye' in early Irish literature and law.][2])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In summery, depending on the character and story, having multiple pupils is associated with beauty, sharp site (i.e. clairvoyance), or destruction (i.e. &quot;the evil eye&quot;). If you're interested in learning more, I highly recommend that you take a look at [the paper I cited about the evil eye][2]: it's very interesting and connects the phenomenon to Irish law and a variety of non-Irish texts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T301017A.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://bill.celt.dias.ie/vol4/displayObject.php?TreeID=1001" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4714" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1009" RevisionGUID="3ce1e45d-ef33-4b90-b1e5-00c42cd7a5d5" CreationDate="2015-07-21T05:38:39.140" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited title" Text="Symbolism of Irish characters with multiple pupils in each eye" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4715" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1031" RevisionGUID="a0e041b4-e0ca-44b4-b73b-d71cd188a452" CreationDate="2015-07-21T11:54:58.650" UserId="273" Text="Sorry for referencing [wiki][1], but I don't have better source. I've just remembered this during reading of this question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In a late version of the Medusa myth, related by the Roman poet Ovid (Metamorphoses 4.770), Medusa was originally a ravishingly beautiful maiden, &quot;the jealous aspiration of many suitors,&quot; but because Poseidon had raped her in Athena's temple, the enraged Athena transformed Medusa's beautiful hair to serpents and made her face so terrible to behold that the mere sight of it would turn onlookers to stone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Ovid's telling, Perseus describes Medusa's punishment by Minerva (Athena) as just and well earned.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So if I assume right, not in all her life was Medusa &quot;able&quot; to turn anybody into stone. If she had given born to Casus before her transformation, he didn't have to be &quot;shielded&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medusa" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4720" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1033" RevisionGUID="db9aae1f-fc6e-42b6-8790-4a21e5b6152d" CreationDate="2015-07-22T01:15:19.100" UserId="557" Text="I come from a long line of leaders and Chiefs of the Sauks.  My clan is in English is called Beaver because there was not word for underwater panther in English.  My true clan name is Underwater Panther.  When my Grandfather Elmer Manatowa Sr died, they found two skins of the underwater panther which looked like a panther, with long nose, web feet, and tail like a beaver but longer like the panther.  I is all the physical proof I need to know that the underwater panther actually did exist and roam this earth.  My name is Canwah which means I rule the whirlpools in the water; my ancestors observed an underwater panther's behavior in the whirlpools and decided to name me after that characteristic and behavior of the underwater panther.  We roamed northern USA; they say our home was Tama, Iowa but Wisconsin area I was taught we spent a lot of time in that area; but we were a mobile Tribe, moving due to seasons, weather, and soil conditions for growing food.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4721" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1033" RevisionGUID="a3203761-e094-4fb9-bf7a-3bb463a759a4" CreationDate="2015-07-22T01:22:14.657" UserId="557" Comment="added 248 characters in body" Text="I come from a long line of leaders and Chiefs of the Sauks.  My clan is in English is called Beaver because there was not word for underwater panther in English.  My true clan name is Underwater Panther.  When my Grandfather Elmer Manatowa Sr died, they found two skins of the underwater panther which looked like a panther, with long nose, web feet, and tail like a beaver but longer like the panther.  I is all the physical proof I need to know that the underwater panther actually did exist and roam this earth.  My name is Canwah which means I rule the whirlpools in the water; my ancestors observed an underwater panther's behavior in the whirlpools and decided to name one of my ancestors after that characteristic and behavior of the underwater panther.  We roamed northern USA, consequently, the name Canwah has been passed down through generations and to this day I have the name.  The name Canwah will be passed on after I am gone from this earth. They say our home was Tama, Iowa but Wisconsin area I was taught is more accurate, we spent a lot of time in that area; but we were a mobile Tribe, did not have a set place where we lived, moving due to seasons, weather, and soil conditions for growing food.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4726" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1035" RevisionGUID="2093ee5f-863a-4924-ada8-859725d0f239" CreationDate="2015-07-22T18:38:30.283" UserId="561" Text="The lyrics of the famous &quot;Ode to Joy&quot; (by Schiller, on the final of Beethoven's 9th) mention the 'daughter of Elysium'. The term Elysium or 'Elysian plane' go back to Hesiod, Homer and [Aeneid](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0054%3Abook%3D6%3Acard%3D535).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The definition seems to be either paradise or afterlife, perhaps both.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What's the origin of Elysium and how should it be translated in different contexts?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4727" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1035" RevisionGUID="2093ee5f-863a-4924-ada8-859725d0f239" CreationDate="2015-07-22T18:38:30.283" UserId="561" Text="The origin of Elysium" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4728" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1035" RevisionGUID="2093ee5f-863a-4924-ada8-859725d0f239" CreationDate="2015-07-22T18:38:30.283" UserId="561" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4729" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1036" RevisionGUID="c59b14f3-4311-4778-b234-5d6469e08a71" CreationDate="2015-07-22T19:07:11.637" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4730" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1037" RevisionGUID="d268f41f-02e3-48a1-aaeb-c85a567fee7c" CreationDate="2015-07-22T19:07:11.637" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4731" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1037" RevisionGUID="90be4de8-5c3c-4133-8140-e3c66cff7f24" CreationDate="2015-07-22T22:56:52.443" UserId="561" Comment="added 43 characters in body" Text="Legend of Llyn y Fan Fach, a lake in Wales." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4732" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1037" RevisionGUID="90be4de8-5c3c-4133-8140-e3c66cff7f24" CreationDate="2015-07-22T22:56:52.443" Comment="Proposed by 561 approved by 62, 183 edit id of 219" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4733" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1036" RevisionGUID="5c38aad9-958a-4e6b-9c98-5a7d024a6165" CreationDate="2015-07-22T22:56:57.240" UserId="561" Comment="added 43 characters in body" Text="Legend of Llyn y Fan Fach, a lake in Wales." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4734" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1036" RevisionGUID="5c38aad9-958a-4e6b-9c98-5a7d024a6165" CreationDate="2015-07-22T22:56:57.240" Comment="Proposed by 561 approved by 62, 183 edit id of 218" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4736" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1038" RevisionGUID="dab7fecb-050d-4e7e-8f99-2c3ebe97bc8b" CreationDate="2015-07-23T03:29:46.767" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="We definitely know the motivation for disclosing the dragon: it was disclosed to build a tower. I don't know about the disclosure of the bones: that's going to take some more research (I'll update my answer if I find an answer).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Dragons&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story of the *concealing* of the dragons is recounted in the Welsh tale [Llud a Llefelys][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  &quot;And the second plague,&quot; said he, &quot; that is in thy dominion, behold it is a dragon. And another dragon of a foreign race is fighting with it, and striving to overcome it. And therefore does your dragon make a fearful outcry. And on this wise mayest thou come to know this. After thou hast returned home, cause the Island to be measured in its length and breadth, and in the place where thou dost find the exact central point, there cause a pit to be dug, and cause a cauldron full of the best mead that can be made to be put in the pit, with a covering of satin over the face of the cauldron. And then, in thine own person do thou remain there watching, and thou wilt see the dragons fighting in the form of terrific animals. And at length they will take the form of dragons in the air. And last of all, after wearying themselves with fierce and furious fighting, they will fall in the form of two pigs upon the covering, and they will sink in, and the covering with them, and they will draw it down to the very bottom of the cauldron. And they will drink up the whole of the mead; and after that they will sleep. Thereupon do thou immediately fold the covering around them, and bury them in a kistvaen, in the strongest place thou hast in thy dominions, and hide them in the earth. And as long as they shall bide in that strong place no plague shall come to the Island of Britain from elsewhere.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And the story of their &quot;[disclosure&quot; is given both in Nennius' Historia Brittonum][2] and in [Geoffrey of Monmouth's Historia Regum][3]. I'm going to quote from Geoffrey because I find it easier to follow:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Unto whom spake Merlin: 'Know ye not what it is that doth hinder the foundation being laid of this tower? Ye have given counsel that the mortar thereof should be slacked of my blood, that so the tower should stand forthwith. Now tell me, what is it that lieth hid beneath the foundation, for somewhat is there that doth not allow it to stand?' But the wizards were adread and held their peace. Then saith Merlin, that is also called Ambrosius: 'My lord the King, call thy workmen and bid delve the soil, and a pool shalt thou find beneath it that doth forbid thy tower to stand.' And when this was done, straightway a pool was found under the earth, the which had made the soil unconstant. Then Ambrosius Merlin again came nigh unto the wizards and saith: 'Tell me now, ye lying flatterers, what is it that is under the pool?' But they were all dumb and answered&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; {p. 169}&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; {marg The magicians dumbfounded}unto him never a word. And again spake he unto the King, saying: 'Command, O King, that the pool be drained by conduits, and in the bottom thereof shalt thou behold two hollow stones and therein two dragons asleep.' The King, believing his words for that he had spoken true as touching the pool, commanded also that the pool should be drained. And when he found that it was even as Merlin had said he marvelled greatly. All they that stood by were no less astonished at such wisdom being found in him, deeming that he was possessed of some spirit of God.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Additional Commentary&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a bonus, here's some additional commentary on the triad. First, Will Parker discusses the purpose of the triads:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Finally, the burial of the fighting dragons at the end of this episodes recalls the talismanic concealment of Bendigeidfrân’s mortal remains at the end of the Second Branch, or those of Gwrthefyr as described in the Historia. The subsequent unearthing of these protective talismans is often lamented in the Welsh tradition, and is often used to explain why later generations were unable to resist the threatening gormesoedd as effectively as their mythological ancestors. As such, these ‘fortunate concealments’ and ‘unfortunate disclosures’ play an important part in the meta-narrative of sovereignty, loss and eventual restoration which we have seen played such a central role in Medievel Welsh historiography. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Will Parker, [Mabinogion.info][4])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And here's a quote discussion the inclusion of a dragon burial into the triad we're discussing:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As Ifor Willaims showed, the story of the burial of the dragons as given in Lludd a Llefelys is so closely dependent on HB's account of their disclosure as to indicate that this tale was invented subsequently to the ninth-century redaction of HB. Is it possible that in the triad the burial of the dragons has supplanted a third story of human talismanic burial? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Trioedd Ynys Prydein: The Triads of the Island of Britain][book]. This is the canonical source of information about the triads. I would buy the book, but it's incredibly expensive.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[book]: https://books.google.com/books?id=V2muBwAAQBAJ&amp;dq=trioedd+ynys+prydein+the+welsh+triads+buy&amp;source=gbs_navlinks_s&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/lludd.html#1&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/n03.html#52&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://sacred-texts.com/neu/eng/gem/index.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://mabinogion.info/llud.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4737" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1016" RevisionGUID="53f10ee0-d8a9-4f25-9cbf-7a8901a34000" CreationDate="2015-07-23T03:56:18.497" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|welsh|welsh-triads|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4738" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1039" RevisionGUID="d7526268-0693-43fd-95bc-0881892a0c83" CreationDate="2015-07-23T08:10:19.550" UserDisplayName="user124" Text="According to the comprehensive Theoi.com page [Realm of Elysion][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; THE ELYSIAN FIELDS was the final resting place for the souls of heroes and virtuous men. The ancients often distinguished between two such realms--the islands of the Blessed and the Lethean fields of Haides.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The two realms are for heroes and the virtuous, described as:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- &quot;White Island&quot; or &quot;The Islands of the Blessed&quot;, was an afterlife realm reserved for the heroes of myth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- A netherworld realm that is located in the depths of Haides (beyond the river Lethe). A realm promised to &quot;initiates of the Mysteries&quot; who had lived a virtuous life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, according to the website, Elysium was and still is an 'evolving concept', where&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Homer knows of no such realm, and consigns all of his heroes to the common house of Haides, while Hesiod and many other poets speak only of a paradisal realm reserved for heroes. Roman writers (such as Virgil) combine the two Elysia--the realm of the virtuous dead and the realm of heroes become one and the same.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An important note is that the term Elysium (and Haides) were not proper nouns in Ancient Greek, but rather as an adjective - the website provides examples:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  pedion Elysion (the Elysian plain) and domos Haidou (the domain or house of Haides). The etymology of elysion is unclear. It may be connected with the Greek verb eleusô (eleuthô), &quot;to relieve&quot; or &quot;release&quot; (i.e. from pain), and/or with the town Eleusis, site of the celebrated Eleusinian Mysteries.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An interesting description about the term &quot;Daughter of Elysium&quot; from the classic Ode to Joy from the Wikipedia article [Elysium: Post classical literature][2], is that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; After the Renaissance, an even cheerier Elysium evolved for some poets. Sometimes it is imagined as a place where heroes have continued their interests from their lives. Others suppose it is a location filled with feasting, sport, song; Joy is the &quot;daughter of Elysium&quot; in Friedrich Schiller's ode &quot;To Joy&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Particularly when the verse in its entirety is considered:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Joy, thou beauteous godly lighting,  &#xD;&#xA;Daughter of Elysium,  &#xD;&#xA;Fire drunken we are ent'ring  &#xD;&#xA;Heavenly, thy holy home!  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Source: [The Schiller Institute][3]*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Somewhat anecdotally related, in the past (many moons ago), I played Ode to Joy in an orchestra, when it gets into the full swing, one can imagine that they are among the heroes and virtuous of old in an environment that is joyous, brave and virtuous.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Kosmos/Elysion.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elysium#Post-classical_literature&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.schillerinstitute.org/fid_91-96/931_Schiller_Ode.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4739" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="82" RevisionGUID="c4759014-4fc2-4684-a7ac-3c5ac42f67f9" CreationDate="2015-07-23T15:22:15.003" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="tags" Text="|monomyth|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4741" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1040" RevisionGUID="82b28df2-d8d1-42f2-aba3-28777a6f8f09" CreationDate="2015-07-23T18:58:01.983" UserId="42" Text="The term sage usually seems to be a translation of the character: 聖 (simplified: 圣, Pinyin: shèng)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or a combination of it with other characters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sun Wukong's title in Journey to the West, for instance, is 齊天大聖, and is translated &quot;Great Sage, Equal of Heaven&quot; (or similar), where 大聖 is the &quot;Great Sage&quot; bit (大 for large, great).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, what does the character 聖 mean:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Chinese character 聖 (shèng) refers to a sage or a saint, or the quality of being holy, sacred, or revered.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 聖 (shèng) is an ideogrammic (associative) compound, created from the combination of three other characters.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 壬 (rén) on the bottom depicts a scholar, gentleman, or soldier (士, shì/shi) carrying a load on a pole (丿, piě). 口 (koǔ/kou) on the top-right is the character for mouth, and 耳 (ěr) on the top-left is the character for ear. Together they depict a person with superior speaking and listening skills.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Chinese Character for Saint, Sage: Shèng (聖)](http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/874233-chinese-character-for-saint-sage-sheng-%E8%81%96/)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The character certainly seems to refer to a wise teacher or authority, and seems to imply holiness or divinity.  The precise meaning would likely depend on context:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;圣贤 - Might refer to a wise holy man&#xD;&#xA;圣人 - Might be used to refer to Confucius or the Emperor&#xD;&#xA;圣手 - A sage/divine doctor&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A number of other usage examples can be found:&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA; - https://chinese.yabla.com/chinese-english-pinyin-dictionary.php?define=%E8%81%96  &#xD;&#xA; - http://dictionary.hantrainerpro.com/chinese-english/translation-sheng_holy.htm  &#xD;&#xA; - https://www.fastchinese.org/word?word=%E5%9C%A3-%E8%81%96-sheng4&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4742" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1041" RevisionGUID="71717665-e555-4ac7-b9a6-d4f74be8ae5d" CreationDate="2015-07-23T19:45:52.287" UserId="565" Text="At *Odyssey* 4.563ff, the Elysian Plain is said to be the destination of Menelaus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The etymology of Elusios has been much debated.  Some posit a pre-Greek (&quot;Pelasgian&quot;) origin.  Another suggestion is that it is derived from the Greek word meaning 'struck by lightning' (enelusios) on the view that death by lightning signified immediate deification.  All of this but conjecture." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4743" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1042" RevisionGUID="e3963df2-ae69-423d-9c36-a14ebccb44a6" CreationDate="2015-07-23T20:00:45.540" UserId="565" Text="The classicist W.F. Jackson Knight, much influenced by the Cambridge school, saw in the sack of Troy an allegory for ritual defloration.  See his book *Vergil, Epic and Anthropology*." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4744" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="984" RevisionGUID="9029e265-cfb9-4f4b-86f0-cddc8f7d77fa" CreationDate="2015-07-23T20:57:23.727" UserId="467" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="I've heard this claim before and see no evidence for it in any Egyptian texts or iconography. Acharya S is unscholarly, makes many silly mistakes, and thus is unreliable; and Maher's people obviously got his bullet points from the Acharya piece to which you linked in your question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Acharya throws up numerous points hoping that some of them will stick, but they don't. She doesn't cite any Egyptian texts that support her view, which is not surprising because there are none and, I would argue, there can be none. This is because the idea that Horus can be crucified and resurrected is logically precluded by Egypt's mythology and religious thinking. While a person is alive (taking the king as the example), he is Horus. But once you die, you become Osiris and are not Horus, so it can only be Osiris who is resurrected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not having any Egyptian texts to rely upon, Acharya relies on images of Horus with his arms out from his sides, and the idea that the Egyptian ankh and Christ's cross are the same. See [www.stellarhousepublishing.com/washoruscrucified.html](http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/washoruscrucified.html) The ankh sign comes not from a cross but from a sandal strap (see Gardiner sign S34). In Egyptian, the ankh glyph is used to mean &quot;life&quot; as well as for the verb &quot;to live,&quot; but it never is an agency of death; in Egypt no one ever dies on an ankh, much less is crucified on one. There are no such images in the iconography, since crucifixion was not practiced in ancient Egypt (at least before Roman times). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further, a figure holding out his arms in itself says nothing about death or crucifixion, or a cross or Christ. Acharya's notion reminds me of Tertullian's laughable interpretation of Moses' surveying the Hebrews' (led by Joshua) battle against the Amalekites (Exod.17:8-13), where by standing on a hill and surveying the battle below, Moses (with help from Aaron and Hur) held his hands out to his sides and so caused the Hebrews to prevail. Tertullian claimed that this posture prefigured Christ and the cross, foretelling the cross through which Christ would be victorious over death and bring salvation. (Tertullian, *Against Marcion,* Book 3, Ch. 18.) No one would agree with such kinds of interpretations today. Yet Acharya relies on similarly ignorant/silly statements and wishful thinking by Church Fathers to support her claim.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the past it has sometimes been claimed (e.g., by Wallis Budge, in his *Legends of the Gods* (1912), see http://sacred-texts.com/egy/leg/leg11.htm (among Egyptologists, Budge is no longer considered reliable)) that, in a myth recited on the Metternich Stela now on exhibit at the Metropolitan Museum in New York, the child Horus is stung by a scorpion (which is Seth's doing), dies from the poison, and is resurrected by Thoth. But I know of no modern reading/translation of this text that has him dying rather than just unconscious and on the brink of death. The Stela's text itself says that &quot;the child was weak beyond answering,&quot; and &quot;refused the jar [of drink],&quot; which obviously means he is not dead. J.F. Borghouts, *Ancient Egyptian Texts* (1978), p. 63 (in lines 171-74 if the Stela). The scholarly discussions of the text accord with this interpretation. See Nora Scott, &quot;The Metternich Stela,&quot; The Metropolitan Museum of Art Bulletin 9.8:201-17 (1951) (Horus is &quot;unconscious&quot; (p. 213); Scott was Research Fellow in the Egyptian Art Department at the Met); John Nunn, Ancient Egyptian Medicine, p. 110 (1996) (Horus is &quot;unconscious&quot;); Robert Ritner, *The Mechanics of Ancient Egyptian Magical Practice,* p. 57 n. 266 (1993) (Horus is &quot;injured&quot;);  Geraldine Pinch, *Magic in Ancient Egypt,* pp. 144-45 (1994) (Horus is &quot;too weak and ill to suckle&quot; and has a &quot;sickness&quot;); Emily Teeter, *Religion and Ritual in Ancient Egypt,* p. 175 (2011) (Horus was was &quot;cured&quot; by Thoth, which does not seem like a raising from the dead). This interpretation makes sense in terms of the magical spells recited that invoked this myth to cure victims of snakebite, scorpion stings, etc., who are *still alive;* they are not being brought back from the dead. For this purpose, the recovery of Horus was being used as a parallel example, so it made sense that he too was only on the brink of death. It is like the Billy Crystal scene in *The Princess Bride,* where his character Miracle Max observes that Wesley is &quot;only mostly dead,&quot; and then proceeds to bring him back.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, to put it bluntly, the idea is a load of Horuss**t." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4745" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1040" RevisionGUID="a9f803f8-c13e-4594-97e7-505db99492f3" CreationDate="2015-07-23T21:29:20.423" UserId="42" Comment="added 18 characters in body" Text="The term sage usually seems to be a translation of the character: 聖 (simplified: 圣, Pinyin: shèng)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or a combination of it with other characters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sun Wukong's title in Journey to the West, for instance, is 齊天大聖, and is translated &quot;Great Sage, Equal of Heaven&quot; (or similar), where 大聖 is the &quot;Great Sage&quot; bit (大 for large, great).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, what does the character 聖 mean:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Chinese character 聖 (shèng) refers to a sage or a saint, or the quality of being holy, sacred, or revered.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 聖 (shèng) is an ideogrammic (associative) compound, created from the combination of three other characters.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 壬 (rén) on the bottom depicts a scholar, gentleman, or soldier (士, shì/shi) carrying a load on a pole (丿, piě). 口 (koǔ/kou) on the top-right is the character for mouth, and 耳 (ěr) on the top-left is the character for ear. Together they depict a person with superior speaking and listening skills.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Chinese Character for Saint, Sage: Shèng (聖)](http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/874233-chinese-character-for-saint-sage-sheng-%E8%81%96/)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The character, in this context, certainly seems to refer to a wise teacher or authority, and seems to imply holiness or divinity.  The precise meaning would likely depend on context:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;圣贤 - Might refer to a wise holy man  &#xD;&#xA;圣人 - Might be used to refer to Confucius or the Emperor  &#xD;&#xA;圣手 - A sage/divine doctor  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A number of other usage examples can be found:&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA; - https://chinese.yabla.com/chinese-english-pinyin-dictionary.php?define=%E8%81%96  &#xD;&#xA; - http://dictionary.hantrainerpro.com/chinese-english/translation-sheng_holy.htm  &#xD;&#xA; - https://www.fastchinese.org/word?word=%E5%9C%A3-%E8%81%96-sheng4&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4746" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1043" RevisionGUID="c79550c7-2e5d-4c34-a39e-79da295cdd8b" CreationDate="2015-07-24T06:14:03.580" UserId="83" Text="Before we can derive the mean behind the word, we need to first understand is the term originates. These sages are the philosophers that help shape the foundation of Chinese culture, society, and even politics. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Because much of Eastern Asian culture, language, and philosophies were borrow from the Chinese to some extent, (I understand there are exceptions), for brevity I will just focus mostly on its Chinese origin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a work originating from before the [Xia Dynasty][1] of the [Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Sovereigns_and_Five_Emperors) (三皇五帝, Sānhuáng wǔdì) (who there differ depending on the source, so I will not attempt to name them in order to avoid confusion). In it there are figure regarded as Three Sovereigns, regarded as &quot;god kings,&quot; they are the ultimate cultural heroes (and [regarded as demi-gods][2] in the myths) of Chinese history and described to have magical powers and credited with the basic technological inventions, social structure, and political norms of the time. During despot times these figures as said to have been invoked as paragons of leadership.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The &quot;Five Emperors&quot; subsequently were regarded as legendary figures regarded as &quot;sages kings&quot; that are depicted perfect moral character. These figure were more worldly but historically intangible figures, like a mythical tribe leader, compared to the &quot;Three Sovereigns,&quot; who were considered divine beings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In essence these can be considered the first &quot;sages&quot; of Chinese legend. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Confucius is known to have revered these [Emperor Yao](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Yao) and [Emperor Shun](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Shun) (two of the Five Emperors, according to some sources), [Yu the Great](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yu_the_Great) (described to be a decendant of the [Yellow Emperor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Emperor), one of the Three Soverigns by some sources) the [three true sages][3] 聖(人) (Shèng[rén]), the pinnicale of human perfection, the equivilant a saint in some regards.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Taoism the equivalent would be &quot;[仙][4]&quot; (Xiān), (the character itself can mean hermit or rather literally &quot;mountain person&quot;［人＋山］), related to [Eight Immortal Scholars of the Han](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_Immortals_of_Huainan), but the meaning has [changed][4] quite a bit though time. Those the meaning of those two titles by themselves are the equivalent of the Buddhist term for the &quot;enlighten/awaken one&quot; (Buddha, which is [a title][5], not a name).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In short, the title of &quot;sage&quot; is what you would call an &quot;enlightened one,&quot; in a philosophical and/or spiritual sense. While the names may differ their destination are the same. Both Confucianism and Taoism walk the same path, but their ideals about it are different. Taoism seeks to free itself from worldly desires (as a hermit would live, confronting problem though the way of nature), but Confucianism is more about being a man of action, upholding the established hierarchy and fulfilling their given role as best they can (i.e. conquering problems thru cultivating intellect and morals). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xia_dynasty&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_cult&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://books.google.com/books?id=dmCZmnFBypEC&amp;lpg=PA511&amp;dq=sheng%20confucius%20yu%20shun%20yao%20sage&amp;pg=PA511#v=onepage&amp;q=sheng%20confucius%20yu%20shun%20yao%20sage&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Xian_(Daoist_immortal)&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.lucidcafe.com/library/96jun/buddha.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xian_(Taoism)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4747" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="1016" RevisionGUID="387c13bf-ec99-4ad2-b54a-790383b5afa1" CreationDate="2015-07-24T08:21:53.770" UserDisplayName="user124" Comment="13" />
  <row Id="4748" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1044" RevisionGUID="337c6a0d-1c1d-4d5f-b354-0666511a2d88" CreationDate="2015-07-24T19:46:30.540" UserId="568" Text="Vampires are ancient Balkan mythological being. The word actually depicts pretty much any form of non ethereal undead (contrary to the popular belief of capes, fangs and etc). As such their soul usually passed on to the next world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was believed that the mirror holds and reflects a part of your soul.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like VixenPopuli said it can't reflect what you don't own.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This also explains why Chinese vampires are terrified of their reflection, because they are reminded that they have no soul.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also. back in the past, mirrors were made out of silver, and actually Balkan werewolves are considered a type of a vampire, so... if you add 2+2 u get 4. It's quite possible that the modern myth is a combination of the silver and soul reflection theories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As of the earlier myths... lol we are talking about centuries BC. Times before any written language.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other words it's impossible to tell how it appeared, but the most plausible theories are: **No soul, thus No reflection** and **Bram Stoker's imagination and bad translations, born from lack of understanding.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I mean, Bram Stoker did pretty lame job at describing the vampires, but they were sort of &quot;the thing&quot; back in the days and everybody just went along with it, which eventually brought us Edward the sparkling fairy. So I won't be surprised if someone told him that vampires are terrified of mirrors, and he tried to guess why, which spawned the myth." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4749" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1044" RevisionGUID="11eed4fc-a9dc-44aa-8552-c56da1aadca1" CreationDate="2015-07-24T21:25:42.610" UserId="568" Comment="Those coments." Text="Vampires are ancient Balkan mythological being. The word actually depicts pretty much any form of non ethereal undead (contrary to the popular belief of capes, fangs and etc). As such their soul usually passed on to the next world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was believed that the mirror holds and reflects a part of your soul.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like VixenPopuli said it can't reflect what you don't own.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This also explains why Chinese vampires are terrified of their reflection, because they are reminded that they have no soul.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also. back in the past, mirrors were made out of silver, and actually Balkan werewolves are considered a type of a vampire, so... if you add 2+2 u get 4. It's quite possible that the modern myth is a combination of the silver and soul reflection theories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As of the earlier myths... lol we are talking about centuries BC. Times before any written language.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other words it's impossible to tell how it appeared, but the most plausible theories are: **No soul, thus No reflection** and **Bram Stoker's imagination and bad translations, born from lack of understanding.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I mean, Bram Stoker did pretty lame job at describing the vampires, but they were sort of &quot;the thing&quot; back in the days and everybody just went along with it, which eventually brought us Edward the sparkling fairy. So I won't be surprised if someone told him that vampires are terrified of mirrors, and he tried to guess why, which spawned the myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Edit**: Since you are too lazy to google it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Vampires][1] Wikipedia (oh laws, so hard to google).&#xD;&#xA;[Link from the bibliography. Fixed.][2]&#xD;&#xA;[China Vampires Jiangshi][3], another wikipedia Article.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Random][4] [articles][5] [which][6] [pretty][7] [much][8] [repeat][9] [what I just said.][10]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, asking a Bulgarian about vampires is like asking a netflix addicted zombie fan about the zombie apocalypse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now about the Stoker thing. (**Warning** Off Topic):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Gypsies are afraid of vampires and will not enter their territories. Actually they are far more superstitious than normal people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 2. Wooden stake - Actually is a specific type of wood. Cornus also known  as dogwood. And it is not required to be a stake. Even a needle will help you. Since vampires are considered something like giant balloons full of blood. The word that describes the item is Шип which can be translated as pretty much everything in between a stake, spike and a big needle. Depending on the dialect. Also the heart is also a myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 3. He completely skipped the &quot;cut their feet&quot; part. Yeah, you can kill vampires by cutting their feet so that won't get up and attack the living, which will make em die of starvation. Which is pretty much the usual way vampires were killed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 4. People don't fear vampires, they gang up to slay them when they are still young. Thus Frankenstein is more of a vampire book than Dracula.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 5. Many many many other historical and translation issues. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I really don't feel like writing &quot;vampire burials&quot; on google.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%80&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.protobulgarians.com/PODSTRANITSA%20NA%20DR%20ZHIVKO%20VOYNIKOV/PRALULG-DIAL-DUM-1.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiangshi#Methods_and_items_used_to_counter_jiangshis&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://dariknews.bg/view_article.php?article_id=1350208&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://mgpz.org/mitoveizagadki/drugi/vampir.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.burgasnews.com/ezoterika-i-misterii/74275-vnimavaite-s-ogledaloto-mozhe-da-krie-dushata-vi&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.trud.bg/Article.asp?ArticleId=4451362&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://listverse.com/2010/09/30/8-vampire-myths-explained/&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.fvza.org/vmyths.html&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/38466/is-there-a-reason-given-as-to-why-vampires-reflections-cannot-be-seen" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4750" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1044" RevisionGUID="8d4565ec-7930-4b9f-81a2-8e3e24715076" CreationDate="2015-07-24T21:33:01.617" UserId="568" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="Vampires are ancient Balkan mythological being. The word actually depicts pretty much any form of non ethereal undead (contrary to the popular belief of capes, fangs and etc). As such their soul usually passed on to the next world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was believed that the mirror holds and reflects a part of your soul.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like VixenPopuli said it can't reflect what you don't own.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This also explains why Chinese vampires are terrified of their reflection, because they are reminded that they have no soul.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also. back in the past, mirrors were made out of silver, and actually Balkan werewolves are considered a type of a vampire, so... if you add 2+2 u get 4. It's quite possible that the modern myth is a combination of the silver and soul reflection theories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As of the earlier myths... lol we are talking about centuries BC. Times before any written language.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other words it's impossible to tell how it appeared, but the most plausible theories are: **No soul, thus No reflection** and **Bram Stoker's imagination and bad translations, born from lack of understanding.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I mean, Bram Stoker did pretty lame job at describing the vampires, but they were sort of &quot;the thing&quot; back in the days and everybody just went along with it, which eventually brought us Edward the sparkling fairy. So I won't be surprised if someone told him that vampires are terrified of mirrors, and he tried to guess why, which spawned the myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Edit**: Since you are too lazy to google it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Vampires][1] Wikipedia (oh lawd, so hard to google).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Link from the bibliography. Fixed.][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[China Vampires Jiangshi][3], another wikipedia Article.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Random][4] [articles][5] [which][6] [pretty][7] [much][8] [repeat][9] [what I just said.][10]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, asking a Bulgarian about vampires is like asking a netflix addicted zombie fan about the zombie apocalypse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now about the Stoker thing. (**Warning** Off Topic):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Gypsies are afraid of vampires and will not enter their territories. Actually they are far more superstitious than normal people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 2. Wooden stake - Actually is a specific type of wood. Cornus also known  as dogwood. And it is not required to be a stake. Even a needle will help you. Since vampires are considered something like giant balloons full of blood. The word that describes the item is Шип which can be translated as pretty much everything in between a stake, spike and a big needle. Depending on the dialect. Also the heart is also a myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 3. He completely skipped the &quot;cut their feet&quot; part. Yeah, you can kill vampires by cutting their feet so that won't get up and attack the living, which will make em die of starvation. Which is pretty much the usual way vampires were killed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 4. People don't fear vampires, they gang up to slay them when they are still young. Thus Frankenstein is more of a vampire book than Dracula.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 5. Many many many other historical and translation issues. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I really don't feel like writing &quot;vampire burials&quot; on google.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%80&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.protobulgarians.com/PODSTRANITSA%20NA%20DR%20ZHIVKO%20VOYNIKOV/PRALULG-DIAL-DUM-1.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiangshi#Methods_and_items_used_to_counter_jiangshis&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://dariknews.bg/view_article.php?article_id=1350208&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://mgpz.org/mitoveizagadki/drugi/vampir.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.burgasnews.com/ezoterika-i-misterii/74275-vnimavaite-s-ogledaloto-mozhe-da-krie-dushata-vi&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.trud.bg/Article.asp?ArticleId=4451362&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://listverse.com/2010/09/30/8-vampire-myths-explained/&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.fvza.org/vmyths.html&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/38466/is-there-a-reason-given-as-to-why-vampires-reflections-cannot-be-seen" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4751" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1044" RevisionGUID="69a72f2f-0471-4186-aa4e-54abb6544619" CreationDate="2015-07-24T21:56:06.417" UserId="568" Comment="added 814 characters in body" Text="Vampires are ancient Balkan mythological being. The word actually depicts pretty much any form of non ethereal undead (contrary to the popular belief of capes, fangs and etc). As such their soul usually passed on to the next world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was believed that the mirror holds and reflects a part of your soul.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like VixenPopuli said it can't reflect what you don't own.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This also explains why Chinese vampires are terrified of their reflection, because they are reminded that they have no soul.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also. back in the past, mirrors were made out of silver, and actually Balkan werewolves are considered a type of a vampire, so... if you add 2+2 u get 4. It's quite possible that the modern myth is a combination of the silver and soul reflection theories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As of the earlier myths... lol we are talking about centuries BC. Times before any written language.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other words it's impossible to tell how it appeared, but the most plausible theories are: **No soul, thus No reflection** and **Bram Stoker's imagination and bad translations, born from lack of understanding.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I mean, Bram Stoker did pretty lame job at describing the vampires, but they were sort of &quot;the thing&quot; back in the days and everybody just went along with it, which eventually brought us Edward the sparkling fairy. So I won't be surprised if someone told him that vampires are terrified of mirrors, and he tried to guess why, which spawned the myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Edit**: Since you are too lazy to google it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Vampires][1] Wikipedia (oh lawd, so hard to google).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Link from the bibliography. Fixed.][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[China Vampires Jiangshi][3], another wikipedia Article.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Random][4] [articles][5] [which][6] [pretty][7] [much][8] [repeat][9] [what I just said.][10]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, asking a Bulgarian about vampires is like asking a netflix addicted zombie fan about the zombie apocalypse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now about the Stoker thing. (**Warning** Off Topic):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Gypsies are afraid of vampires and will not enter their territories. Actually they are far more superstitious than normal people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 2. Wooden stake - Actually is a specific type of wood. Cornus also known  as dogwood. And it is not required to be a stake. Even a needle will help you. Since vampires are considered something like giant balloons full of blood. The word that describes the item is Шип which can be translated as pretty much everything in between a stake, spike and a big needle. Depending on the dialect. Also the heart is also a myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 3. He completely skipped the &quot;cut their feet&quot; part. Yeah, you can kill vampires by cutting their feet so that won't get up and attack the living, which will make em die of starvation. Which is pretty much the usual way vampires were killed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 4. People don't fear vampires, they gang up to slay them when they are still young. Thus Frankenstein is more of a vampire book than Dracula.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 5. Many many many other historical and translation issues. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I really don't feel like writing &quot;vampire burials&quot; on google.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**EDIT 2:** So it seems I have to spell it for you.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1.There is no written story dating prior to Bram Stoker, claiming that vampires are afraid of mirrors. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2.Vampires, and bloodsuckers in general are far older than the bible itself and appear through out the history in almost all mythology from China to Egypt and eastern Europe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3.The only ancient vampires, prior to the book Dracula, that were related to mirrors, were the Chinese ones. Also they had reflection, it's just that it scared them instead of not appearing. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4.Stoker spawned a huge cult to his creation, not the mythological being vampyr. The Mythological creature vampyr is only remotely related to Dracula. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;5. The mirror is most probably derivation created from combining various sources describing different types of vampires.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%80&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.protobulgarians.com/PODSTRANITSA%20NA%20DR%20ZHIVKO%20VOYNIKOV/PRALULG-DIAL-DUM-1.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiangshi#Methods_and_items_used_to_counter_jiangshis&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://dariknews.bg/view_article.php?article_id=1350208&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://mgpz.org/mitoveizagadki/drugi/vampir.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.burgasnews.com/ezoterika-i-misterii/74275-vnimavaite-s-ogledaloto-mozhe-da-krie-dushata-vi&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.trud.bg/Article.asp?ArticleId=4451362&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://listverse.com/2010/09/30/8-vampire-myths-explained/&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.fvza.org/vmyths.html&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/38466/is-there-a-reason-given-as-to-why-vampires-reflections-cannot-be-seen" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4752" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1044" RevisionGUID="370ff9b9-fb94-422b-94df-6a796358f753" CreationDate="2015-07-24T22:03:13.710" UserId="568" Comment="added 814 characters in body" Text="Vampires are ancient Balkan mythological being. The word actually depicts pretty much any form of non ethereal undead (contrary to the popular belief of capes, fangs and etc). As such their soul usually passed on to the next world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was believed that the mirror holds and reflects a part of your soul.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like VixenPopuli said it can't reflect what you don't own.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This also explains why Chinese vampires are terrified of their reflection, because they are reminded that they have no soul.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also. back in the past, mirrors were made out of silver, and actually Balkan werewolves are considered a type of a vampire, so... if you add 2+2 u get 4. It's quite possible that the modern myth is a combination of the silver and soul reflection theories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As of the earlier myths... lol we are talking about centuries BC. Times before any written language.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other words it's impossible to tell how it appeared, but the most plausible theories are: **No soul, thus No reflection** and **Bram Stoker's imagination and bad translations, born from lack of understanding.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I mean, Bram Stoker did pretty lame job at describing the vampires, but they were sort of &quot;the thing&quot; back in the days and everybody just went along with it, which eventually brought us Edward the sparkling fairy. So I won't be surprised if someone told him that vampires are terrified of mirrors, and he tried to guess why, which spawned the myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Edit**: Since you are too lazy to google it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Vampires][1] Wikipedia (oh lawd, so hard to google).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Link from the bibliography. Fixed.][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[China Vampires Jiangshi][3], another wikipedia Article.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Random][4] [articles][5] [which][6] [pretty][7] [much][8] [repeat][9] [what I just said.][10]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, asking a Bulgarian about vampires is like asking a netflix addicted zombie fan about the zombie apocalypse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now about the Stoker thing. (**Warning** Off Topic):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Gypsies are afraid of vampires and will not enter their territories. Actually they are far more superstitious than normal people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 2. Wooden stake - Actually is a specific type of wood. Cornus also known  as dogwood. And it is not required to be a stake. Even a needle will help you. Since vampires are considered something like giant balloons full of blood. The word that describes the item is Шип which can be translated as pretty much everything in between a stake, spike and a big needle. Depending on the dialect. Also the heart is also a myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 3. He completely skipped the &quot;cut their feet&quot; part. Yeah, you can kill vampires by cutting their feet so that won't get up and attack the living, which will make em die of starvation. Which is pretty much the usual way vampires were killed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 4. People don't fear vampires, they gang up to slay them when they are still young. Thus Frankenstein is more of a vampire book than Dracula.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 5. Many many many other historical and translation issues. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I really don't feel like writing &quot;vampire burials&quot; on google.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**EDIT 2:** So it seems I have to spell it for you.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. There is no written story dating prior to Bram Stoker, claiming that vampires are afraid of mirrors. Actually there are many things about vampires that appeared after Stoker wrote his novel. I wonder why?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. Vampires, and bloodsuckers in general are far older than the bible itself and appear through out the history in almost all mythology from China to Egypt and eastern Europe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. The only ancient vampires, prior to the book Dracula, that were related to mirrors, were the Chinese ones. Also they had reflection, it's just that it scared them instead of not appearing. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. Stoker spawned a huge cult to his creation, not the mythological being vampyr. The Mythological creature vampyr is only remotely related to Dracula. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;5. The mirror is most probably derivation created from combining various sources describing different types of vampires.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also another shady source: Knowing your country's history. Also there were many authors that Mentioned in many of their books, the original vampires. Authors like Jordan Radichkov, Ivan Vazov and many others. They all describe different vampires.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%80&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.protobulgarians.com/PODSTRANITSA%20NA%20DR%20ZHIVKO%20VOYNIKOV/PRALULG-DIAL-DUM-1.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiangshi#Methods_and_items_used_to_counter_jiangshis&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://dariknews.bg/view_article.php?article_id=1350208&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://mgpz.org/mitoveizagadki/drugi/vampir.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.burgasnews.com/ezoterika-i-misterii/74275-vnimavaite-s-ogledaloto-mozhe-da-krie-dushata-vi&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.trud.bg/Article.asp?ArticleId=4451362&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://listverse.com/2010/09/30/8-vampire-myths-explained/&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.fvza.org/vmyths.html&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/38466/is-there-a-reason-given-as-to-why-vampires-reflections-cannot-be-seen" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4753" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1044" RevisionGUID="1970194b-86e3-4c83-9fbb-64235c5c4bda" CreationDate="2015-07-24T23:16:34.527" UserId="568" Comment="Answering the original question with a qoute, since explaining and literally spelling it didn't result in an acceptable answer." Text="Vampires are ancient Balkan mythological being. The word actually depicts pretty much any form of non ethereal undead (contrary to the popular belief of capes, fangs and etc). As such their soul usually passed on to the next world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was believed that the mirror holds and reflects a part of your soul.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like VixenPopuli said it can't reflect what you don't own.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This also explains why Chinese vampires are terrified of their reflection, because they are reminded that they have no soul.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also. back in the past, mirrors were made out of silver, and actually Balkan werewolves are considered a type of a vampire, so... if you add 2+2 u get 4. It's quite possible that the modern myth is a combination of the silver and soul reflection theories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As of the earlier myths... lol we are talking about centuries BC. Times before any written language.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other words it's impossible to tell how it appeared, but the most plausible theories are: **No soul, thus No reflection** and **Bram Stoker's imagination and bad translations, born from lack of understanding.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I mean, Bram Stoker did pretty lame job at describing the vampires, but they were sort of &quot;the thing&quot; back in the days and everybody just went along with it, which eventually brought us Edward the sparkling fairy. So I won't be surprised if someone told him that vampires are terrified of mirrors, and he tried to guess why, which spawned the myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Edit**: Since you are too lazy to google it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Vampires][1] Wikipedia (oh lawd, so hard to google).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Link from the bibliography. Fixed.][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[China Vampires Jiangshi][3], another wikipedia Article.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Random][4] [articles][5] [which][6] [pretty][7] [much][8] [repeat][9] [what I just said.][10]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, asking a Bulgarian about vampires is like asking a netflix addicted zombie fan about the zombie apocalypse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now about the Stoker thing. (**Warning** Off Topic):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Gypsies are afraid of vampires and will not enter their territories. Actually they are far more superstitious than normal people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 2. Wooden stake - Actually is a specific type of wood. Cornus also known  as dogwood. And it is not required to be a stake. Even a needle will help you. Since vampires are considered something like giant balloons full of blood. The word that describes the item is Шип which can be translated as pretty much everything in between a stake, spike and a big needle. Depending on the dialect. Also the heart is also a myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 3. He completely skipped the &quot;cut their feet&quot; part. Yeah, you can kill vampires by cutting their feet so that won't get up and attack the living, which will make em die of starvation. Which is pretty much the usual way vampires were killed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 4. People don't fear vampires, they gang up to slay them when they are still young. Thus Frankenstein is more of a vampire book than Dracula.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 5. Many many many other historical and translation issues. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I really don't feel like writing &quot;vampire burials&quot; on google.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**EDIT 2:** So it seems I have to spell it for you.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. There is no written story dating prior to Bram Stoker, claiming that vampires are afraid of mirrors. Actually there are many things about vampires that appeared after Stoker wrote his novel. I wonder why?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. Vampires, and bloodsuckers in general are far older than the bible itself and appear through out the history in almost all mythology from China to Egypt and eastern Europe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. The only ancient vampires, prior to the book Dracula, that were related to mirrors, were the Chinese ones. Also they had reflection, it's just that it scared them instead of not appearing. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. Stoker spawned a huge cult to his creation, not the mythological being vampyr. The Mythological creature vampyr is only remotely related to Dracula. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;5. The mirror is most probably derivation created from combining various sources describing different types of vampires.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also another shady source: Knowing your country's history. Also there were many authors that Mentioned in many of their books, the original vampires. Authors like Jordan Radichkov, Ivan Vazov and many others. They all describe different vampires.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**EDIT 3:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ok, I came back and did a quick google search. One of the 1st [links][11]. I quote:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One very famous trait Stoker added is the inability to be seen in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mirrors, which is not something found in traditional Eastern European&#xD;&#xA;&gt; folklore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, warping mythology is not modern mythology. If tomorrow someone says that Centaurs were half fishes half penguins, and it becomes a thing, it will not be considered a mythology. The mythological being will still be a man who has a body of a horse instead of his bottom half.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%80&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.protobulgarians.com/PODSTRANITSA%20NA%20DR%20ZHIVKO%20VOYNIKOV/PRALULG-DIAL-DUM-1.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiangshi#Methods_and_items_used_to_counter_jiangshis&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://dariknews.bg/view_article.php?article_id=1350208&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://mgpz.org/mitoveizagadki/drugi/vampir.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.burgasnews.com/ezoterika-i-misterii/74275-vnimavaite-s-ogledaloto-mozhe-da-krie-dushata-vi&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.trud.bg/Article.asp?ArticleId=4451362&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://listverse.com/2010/09/30/8-vampire-myths-explained/&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.fvza.org/vmyths.html&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/38466/is-there-a-reason-given-as-to-why-vampires-reflections-cannot-be-seen&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://dracula.cc/literature/bram_stoker_dracula/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4754" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1044" RevisionGUID="f5a209ab-7ab3-46a8-843d-ed4ec4156bc8" CreationDate="2015-07-24T23:22:18.680" UserId="568" Comment="interesting lore about woden stakes" Text="Vampires are ancient Balkan mythological being. The word actually depicts pretty much any form of non ethereal undead (contrary to the popular belief of capes, fangs and etc). As such their soul usually passed on to the next world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was believed that the mirror holds and reflects a part of your soul.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like VixenPopuli said it can't reflect what you don't own.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This also explains why Chinese vampires are terrified of their reflection, because they are reminded that they have no soul.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also. back in the past, mirrors were made out of silver, and actually Balkan werewolves are considered a type of a vampire, so... if you add 2+2 u get 4. It's quite possible that the modern myth is a combination of the silver and soul reflection theories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As of the earlier myths... lol we are talking about centuries BC. Times before any written language.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other words it's impossible to tell how it appeared, but the most plausible theories are: **No soul, thus No reflection** and **Bram Stoker's imagination and bad translations, born from lack of understanding.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I mean, Bram Stoker did pretty lame job at describing the vampires, but they were sort of &quot;the thing&quot; back in the days and everybody just went along with it, which eventually brought us Edward the sparkling fairy. So I won't be surprised if someone told him that vampires are terrified of mirrors, and he tried to guess why, which spawned the myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Edit**: Since you are too lazy to google it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Vampires][1] Wikipedia (oh lawd, so hard to google).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Link from the bibliography. Fixed.][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[China Vampires Jiangshi][3], another wikipedia Article.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Random][4] [articles][5] [which][6] [pretty][7] [much][8] [repeat][9] [what I just said.][10]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, asking a Bulgarian about vampires is like asking a netflix addicted zombie fan about the zombie apocalypse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now about the Stoker thing. (**Warning** Off Topic):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Gypsies are afraid of vampires and will not enter their territories. Actually they are far more superstitious than normal people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 2. Wooden stake - Actually is a specific type of wood. Cornus also known  as dogwood. And it is not required to be a stake. Even a needle will help you. Since vampires are considered something like giant balloons full of blood. The word that describes the item is Шип which can be translated as pretty much everything in between a stake, spike and a big needle. Depending on the dialect. Also the heart is also a myth. **EDIT** this thing about the wood is only about the Balkan Vampires,t he Chinese ones are slain by peach tree. So it can only be a tree that destroys evil. In other words a wooden stake will not help you in 905 of the cases.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 3. He completely skipped the &quot;cut their feet&quot; part. Yeah, you can kill vampires by cutting their feet so that won't get up and attack the living, which will make em die of starvation. Which is pretty much the usual way vampires were killed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 4. People don't fear vampires, they gang up to slay them when they are still young. Thus Frankenstein is more of a vampire book than Dracula.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 5. Many many many other historical and translation issues. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I really don't feel like writing &quot;vampire burials&quot; on google.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**EDIT 2:** So it seems I have to spell it for you.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. There is no written story dating prior to Bram Stoker, claiming that vampires are afraid of mirrors. Actually there are many things about vampires that appeared after Stoker wrote his novel. I wonder why?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. Vampires, and bloodsuckers in general are far older than the bible itself and appear through out the history in almost all mythology from China to Egypt and eastern Europe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. The only ancient vampires, prior to the book Dracula, that were related to mirrors, were the Chinese ones. Also they had reflection, it's just that it scared them instead of not appearing. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. Stoker spawned a huge cult to his creation, not the mythological being vampyr. The Mythological creature vampyr is only remotely related to Dracula. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;5. The mirror is most probably derivation created from combining various sources describing different types of vampires.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also another shady source: Knowing your country's history. Also there were many authors that Mentioned in many of their books, the original vampires. Authors like Jordan Radichkov, Ivan Vazov and many others. They all describe different vampires.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**EDIT 3:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ok, I came back and did a quick google search. One of the 1st [links][11]. I quote:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One very famous trait Stoker added is the inability to be seen in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mirrors, which is not something found in traditional Eastern European&#xD;&#xA;&gt; folklore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, warping mythology is not modern mythology. If tomorrow someone says that Centaurs were half fishes half penguins, and it becomes a thing, it will not be considered a mythology. The mythological being will still be a man who has a body of a horse instead of his bottom half.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%80&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.protobulgarians.com/PODSTRANITSA%20NA%20DR%20ZHIVKO%20VOYNIKOV/PRALULG-DIAL-DUM-1.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiangshi#Methods_and_items_used_to_counter_jiangshis&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://dariknews.bg/view_article.php?article_id=1350208&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://mgpz.org/mitoveizagadki/drugi/vampir.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.burgasnews.com/ezoterika-i-misterii/74275-vnimavaite-s-ogledaloto-mozhe-da-krie-dushata-vi&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.trud.bg/Article.asp?ArticleId=4451362&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://listverse.com/2010/09/30/8-vampire-myths-explained/&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.fvza.org/vmyths.html&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/38466/is-there-a-reason-given-as-to-why-vampires-reflections-cannot-be-seen&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://dracula.cc/literature/bram_stoker_dracula/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4755" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1043" RevisionGUID="177837de-3e69-4d4a-85dc-4bd2ece71c68" CreationDate="2015-07-25T02:01:07.347" UserId="83" Comment="body edits." Text="Before we can derive the mean behind the word, we need to first understand is where the term originates. These sages can be considered philosophers that use their to help shape the foundation of Chinese culture, society, and even politics. But is that all?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Because much of Eastern Asian culture, language, and philosophies were borrowed from the Chinese to some extent, (I understand there are exceptions), for brevity. I will focus mostly on its Chinese origin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a work originating from before the [Xia Dynasty][1] of the [&quot;Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors&quot;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Sovereigns_and_Five_Emperors) (三皇五帝, Sānhuáng wǔdì) (who they are differ depending on the source [see link]. I will not attempt to name them in order to avoid confusion). In it, there are three figure regarded as &quot;Three Sovereigns,&quot; who are hailed as &quot;god kings,&quot; and are considered the ultimate cultural heroes (and [regarded as demi-gods][2] in the myths) of Chinese history. They a chronicled to have magical powers and credited with the basic technological inventions, social structure, and political norms of the time. During despot times these figures as said to have been invoked as paragons of leadership.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The &quot;Five Emperors&quot; subsequently were regarded as legendary figures regarded as &quot;sages kings&quot; that are depicted perfect moral character. These figure were more worldly but historically intangible figures, like a mythical tribe leader, compared to the &quot;Three Sovereigns,&quot; who were considered divine beings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In essence these can be considered the first &quot;sages&quot; of Chinese legend. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Confucius is known to have revered these figures, [Emperor Yao](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Yao) and [Emperor Shun](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Shun) (two of the Five Emperors, according to some sources), [Yu the Great](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yu_the_Great) (described to be a decendant of the [Yellow Emperor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Emperor), one of the Three Soverigns by some sources) the [three true sages][3] 聖(人) (Shèng[rén]), as the pinnicale of human perfection, the equivilant a saint in some regards.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Taoism the equivalent would be &quot;[仙][4]&quot; (Xiān), (the character itself can mean hermit or rather literally &quot;mountain person&quot;［人＋山］), related to [Eight Immortal Scholars of the Han](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_Immortals_of_Huainan), but the meaning has [changed][4] quite a bit though time. Those the meaning of those two titles by themselves are the equivalent of the Buddhist term for the &quot;enlighten/awaken one&quot; (Buddha, which is [a title][5], not a name).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In short, the title of &quot;sage&quot; is what you would call an &quot;enlightened one,&quot; in a philosophical and/or spiritual sense. While the names may differ their end destination are the same. Both Confucianism and Taoism walk the same path, but their ideals about it are different. Taoism seeks to free itself from worldly desires (as a hermit would live, confronting problem though the way of nature), but Confucianism is more about being a man of action, upholding the established hierarchy and fulfilling their given role as best they can (i.e. conquering problems thru cultivating intellect and morals). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xia_dynasty&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_cult&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://books.google.com/books?id=dmCZmnFBypEC&amp;lpg=PA511&amp;dq=sheng%20confucius%20yu%20shun%20yao%20sage&amp;pg=PA511#v=onepage&amp;q=sheng%20confucius%20yu%20shun%20yao%20sage&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Xian_(Daoist_immortal)&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.lucidcafe.com/library/96jun/buddha.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xian_(Taoism)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4757" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1045" RevisionGUID="ad8a1e8b-4e27-4feb-bcb3-12cc4e804655" CreationDate="2015-07-25T10:54:59.467" UserId="279" Text="###It's a relativley new addition to the vampire mythos. Attributed to [Bram Stoker's Dracula][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Despite its important contributions to vampire fiction, several popular traits of fictional vampires are absent. Count Dracula is killed by a bowie knife, not a wooden stake. The destruction of the vampire Lucy is a three-part process (staking, decapitation, and garlic in the mouth), not the simple stake-only procedure often found in later vampire stories. Dracula has the ability to travel as a mist and to scale the external walls of his castle. **One very famous trait Stoker added is the inability to be seen in mirrors, which is not something found in traditional Eastern European folklore**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://dracula.cc/literature/bram_stoker_dracula/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4758" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="1023" RevisionGUID="f283d479-1d52-4406-8159-fe4712217706" CreationDate="2015-07-25T10:56:05.410" UserId="36" Comment="14" />
  <row Id="4759" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1044" RevisionGUID="649ffd60-97d2-4704-a03a-74191ad593b3" CreationDate="2015-07-25T19:04:19.063" UserId="568" Comment="Rude remarks removed" Text="Vampires are ancient Balkan mythological being. The word actually depicts pretty much any form of non ethereal undead (contrary to the popular belief of capes, fangs and etc). As such their soul usually passed on to the next world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was believed that the mirror holds and reflects a part of your soul.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like VixenPopuli said it can't reflect what you don't own.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This also explains why Chinese vampires are terrified of their reflection, because they are reminded that they have no soul.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also. back in the past, mirrors were made out of silver, and actually Balkan werewolves are considered a type of a vampire, so... if you add 2+2 u get 4. It's quite possible that the modern myth is a combination of the silver and soul reflection theories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As of the earlier myths... lol we are talking about centuries BC. Times before any written language.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other words it's impossible to tell how it appeared, but the most plausible theories are: **No soul, thus No reflection** and **Bram Stoker's imagination and bad translations, born from lack of understanding.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I mean, Bram Stoker did pretty lame job at describing the vampires, but they were sort of &quot;the thing&quot; back in the days and everybody just went along with it, which eventually brought us Edward the sparkling fairy. So I won't be surprised if someone told him that vampires are terrified of mirrors, and he tried to guess why, which spawned the myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Edit**: FAST google search:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Vampires][1] Wikipedia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Link from the bibliography. Fixed.][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[China Vampires Jiangshi][3], another wikipedia Article.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Random][4] [articles][5] [which][6] [pretty][7] [much][8] [repeat][9] [what I just said.][10]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, asking a Bulgarian about vampires is like asking a netflix addicted zombie fan about the zombie apocalypse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now about the Stoker thing. (**Warning** Off Topic):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Gypsies are afraid of vampires and will not enter their territories. Actually they are far more superstitious than normal people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 2. Wooden stake - Actually is a specific type of wood. Cornus also known  as dogwood. And it is not required to be a stake. Even a needle will help you. Since vampires are considered something like giant balloons full of blood. The word that describes the item is Шип which can be translated as pretty much everything in between a stake, spike and a big needle. Depending on the dialect. Also the heart is also a myth. **EDIT** this thing about the wood is only about the Balkan Vampires,t he Chinese ones are slain by peach tree. So it can only be a tree that destroys evil. In other words a wooden stake will not help you in 905 of the cases.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 3. He completely skipped the &quot;cut their feet&quot; part. Yeah, you can kill vampires by cutting their feet so that won't get up and attack the living, which will make em die of starvation. Which is pretty much the usual way vampires were killed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 4. People don't fear vampires, they gang up to slay them when they are still young. Thus Frankenstein is more of a vampire book than Dracula.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 5. Many many many other historical and translation issues. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;for more info write &quot;vampire burials/graves&quot; on google. It's full of info.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**EDIT 2:** Additional info.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. There is no written story dating prior to Bram Stoker, claiming that vampires are afraid of mirrors. Actually there are many things about vampires that appeared after Stoker wrote his novel. I wonder why?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. Vampires, and bloodsuckers in general are far older than the bible itself and appear through out the history in almost all mythology from China to Egypt and eastern Europe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. The only ancient vampires, prior to the book Dracula, that were related to mirrors, were the Chinese ones. Also they had reflection, it's just that it scared them instead of not appearing. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. Stoker spawned a huge cult to his creation, not the mythological being vampyr. The Mythological creature vampyr is only remotely related to Dracula. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;5. The mirror is most probably derivation created from combining various sources describing different types of vampires.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also another shady source: Knowing your country's history. Also there were many authors that Mentioned in many of their books, the original vampires. Authors like Jordan Radichkov, Ivan Vazov and many others. They all describe different vampires.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**EDIT 3:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ok, I came back and did a quick google search. One of the 1st [links][11]. I quote:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One very famous trait Stoker added is the inability to be seen in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mirrors, which is not something found in traditional Eastern European&#xD;&#xA;&gt; folklore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, warping mythology is not modern mythology. If tomorrow someone says that Centaurs were half fishes half penguins, and it becomes a thing, it will not be considered a mythology. The mythological being will still be a man who has a body of a horse instead of his bottom half.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%80&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.protobulgarians.com/PODSTRANITSA%20NA%20DR%20ZHIVKO%20VOYNIKOV/PRALULG-DIAL-DUM-1.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiangshi#Methods_and_items_used_to_counter_jiangshis&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://dariknews.bg/view_article.php?article_id=1350208&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://mgpz.org/mitoveizagadki/drugi/vampir.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.burgasnews.com/ezoterika-i-misterii/74275-vnimavaite-s-ogledaloto-mozhe-da-krie-dushata-vi&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.trud.bg/Article.asp?ArticleId=4451362&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://listverse.com/2010/09/30/8-vampire-myths-explained/&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.fvza.org/vmyths.html&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/38466/is-there-a-reason-given-as-to-why-vampires-reflections-cannot-be-seen&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://dracula.cc/literature/bram_stoker_dracula/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4760" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="216" RevisionGUID="9daaadb6-eb42-48e6-9455-66acf4268640" CreationDate="2015-07-26T08:18:09.287" UserId="-1" Comment="11" />
  <row Id="4761" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="599" RevisionGUID="c739c709-e381-4ee3-96bc-6d6bfe3fce18" CreationDate="2015-07-26T08:18:09.287" UserId="-1" Comment="12" />
  <row Id="4762" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1046" RevisionGUID="b45c92ff-481a-4dd0-85f7-9503848eeb3f" CreationDate="2015-07-26T08:40:12.160" UserId="398" Text="Very early on the Greeks drew parallels between the Trojan War and the Persian War. Both involved Greeks coming together to defeat an eastern power; so naturally from that the latter took on characteristics of the former, and vice versa.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While that's not technically allegory, there were others who did make the war fully allegorical. Lamberton in his [*Homer the Theologian*](https://books.google.com/books?id=aV80E_Vb2CgC) (UC Press, 1989) that there seemed to be a general agreement that the *Odyssey* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; would traditionally have been read as allegory, most often moral allegory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(p. 224)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Much of the allegorization came from a defense of Homer and the gods from attacks by the Platonists. Plato himself censured Homer in his *Republic*. In the first century CE, Heraclitus (not to be confused with the Pre-Socratic philosopher from the late sixth/early fifth century!) penned his *Homeric Allegories*. His work is primarily Euhemeristic, in that they're:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; either physical allegories—claims that the poems represent forces or elements of the natural world as gods—or ethical ones that stress edifying concealed messages.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(R. Lamberton, &quot;[Homer in Antiquity](https://books.google.com/books?id=JuPiXNhC-fIC&amp;lpg=PP1&amp;pg=PA52#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false),&quot; in Morris and Powell eds. _[A New Companion to Homer](https://books.google.com/books?id=JuPiXNhC-fIC&amp;source=gbs_navlinks_s)_, Brill 1997, p. 52)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Picking up from the Platonic allegory, the Neo-Platonists developed Homer's Trojan War into an allegory of the soul (which is, after all, what the Utopian *Republic* is really all about). I quote Anne Sheppard's *[Studies on the 5th and 6th Essays of Proclus'* Commentary on the *Republic](https://books.google.com/books?id=lt1O7nUYA1YC)* (pp. 40–41):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Proclus and Syrianus allegorised Homer in metaphysical and theological terms and sought to show the harmony between poetry, religion and philosophy. As a result myths, including Homeric myths, do make tantalisingly brief appearances in Syrianus' commentary.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Furthermore:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There are good grounds for thinking that systemic allegory of Homer in terms of transcendent metaphysical entities was first developed by Syrianus. Writers like Philo and Origen occasionally allegorise Biblical persons and events in terms of metaphysics; Porphyry's *De antro nympharum* uses Neoplatonist concepts in its interpretation of the grotto in *Od*. 13 [i.e. Homer's *Odyssey* book 13 - CW] and refers to a full-scale allegory of the *Odyssey* by Numenius in terms of the journey of the soul; but nowhere before Proclus and Syrianus is there a detailed and systematic application of the Homeric myths to the sphere of transcendent metaphysics.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(p. 47)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sheppard gives several examples of allegorising, such as &quot;Zeus and Hera representing the monad and the dyad&quot; (for what that is, see [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge#Henology)), of which there is a very nice discussion in Sheppard's book, and the death of the twelve captives by Achilles as symbolizing the demiurge. Other examples in Proclus include the [Judgment of Paris](http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/JudgementParis.html), where he makes the choosing of the goddesses an allegory for different lifestyles:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Proclus's understanding of the meaning of the story is that it &quot;hints at&quot; (αἰνίττεται) the choice among lives of different sorts, the regal (Hera), the philosophical (apparently Athena), and the erotic (Aphrodite). An important source for this is to be found in two passages of the *Phaedrus* [i.e. a work by Plato - CW], but the passages from Plato are not very well suited to the explanation of the myth, and Procus must twist them considerably in the attempt to make them appear so.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Lamberton 1997, p. 202ff.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One further thing of note, Proclus most certainly thinks that Homer himself is allegorizing, and that as a poet, he is simultaneously crafting both layers, the plain meaning and the allegory." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4763" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1046" RevisionGUID="c68ba3dc-49ab-4434-b0a7-0744c27427c3" CreationDate="2015-07-26T09:21:45.263" UserId="398" Comment="added a word" Text="Very early on the Greeks drew parallels between the Trojan War and the Persian War. Both involved Greeks coming together to defeat an eastern power; so naturally from that the latter took on characteristics of the former, and vice versa. Even before the Trojan War began, Greek and Trojan kings began to look like Achaemenid kings (see [here](http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/greece-ii), section 4.2 and image 11, which can be found on the right sidebar). But during the fifth century, the assimilation of specifically Trojans and Persians (i.e. Trojans in Persian trappings) was complete:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Attic black and red figure painters of the sixth and most of the fifth century persisted in depicting the Trojan in Hellenic dress indistinguishable fromthat of the Greeks...Paris furnishes some of the rare exceptions in the later sixth century by sometimes appearing in the costume of the &quot;Scythian archers&quot; so prevalent in Attic vase painting of this period.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [By] the end of the fifth and fourth centuries B.C., the depiction of the Trojans in Greek art had changed drastically; by then, they had assimilated the dress of Amazons or Persians. During this period Paris appears in vase painting almost exclusively as an oriental prince.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;D. Castriota 1992, [_Myth, Ethos, and Actuality_](https://books.google.com/books?id=tnMWWeZwt8EC&amp;pg=PA106), U. Wisconsin Press, p. 106.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can see an example here. Notice the different costumes of Aphrodite (tall, in the middle, wearing typical Greek dress) and the Trojans (Aeneas on the left, Paris on the right).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Many have seen the juxtaposition of Persian War scenes and Trojan War scenes on the [Metopes of the Parthenon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metopes_of_the_Parthenon) to indicate a symbolic relationship between the two (cf. e.g. A. Stewart 1990 _Greek Sculpture: An Exploration_, Yale Press, p. 250-252).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is not surprising that Herodotus begins his narrative of the Persian War with a rationalized account of the Trojan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While that's not technically allegory, there were others who did make the war fully allegorical. Lamberton in his [*Homer the Theologian*](https://books.google.com/books?id=aV80E_Vb2CgC) (UC Press, 1989) notes that there seemed to be a general agreement that the *Odyssey* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; would traditionally have been read as allegory, most often moral allegory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(p. 224)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Much of the allegorization came from a defense of Homer and the gods from attacks by the Platonists. Plato himself censured Homer in his *Republic*. In the first century CE, Heraclitus (not to be confused with the Pre-Socratic philosopher from the late sixth/early fifth century!) penned his *Homeric Allegories*. His work is primarily Euhemeristic, in that they're:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; either physical allegories—claims that the poems represent forces or elements of the natural world as gods—or ethical ones that stress edifying concealed messages.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(R. Lamberton, &quot;[Homer in Antiquity](https://books.google.com/books?id=JuPiXNhC-fIC&amp;lpg=PP1&amp;pg=PA52#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false),&quot; in Morris and Powell eds. _[A New Companion to Homer](https://books.google.com/books?id=JuPiXNhC-fIC&amp;source=gbs_navlinks_s)_, Brill 1997, p. 52)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Picking up from the Platonic allegory, the Neo-Platonists developed Homer's Trojan War into an allegory of the soul (which is, after all, what the Utopian *Republic* is really all about). I quote Anne Sheppard's *[Studies on the 5th and 6th Essays of Proclus'* Commentary on the *Republic](https://books.google.com/books?id=lt1O7nUYA1YC)* (pp. 40–41):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Proclus and Syrianus allegorised Homer in metaphysical and theological terms and sought to show the harmony between poetry, religion and philosophy. As a result myths, including Homeric myths, do make tantalisingly brief appearances in Syrianus' commentary.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Furthermore:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There are good grounds for thinking that systemic allegory of Homer in terms of transcendent metaphysical entities was first developed by Syrianus. Writers like Philo and Origen occasionally allegorise Biblical persons and events in terms of metaphysics; Porphyry's *De antro nympharum* uses Neoplatonist concepts in its interpretation of the grotto in *Od*. 13 [i.e. Homer's *Odyssey* book 13 - CW] and refers to a full-scale allegory of the *Odyssey* by Numenius in terms of the journey of the soul; but nowhere before Proclus and Syrianus is there a detailed and systematic application of the Homeric myths to the sphere of transcendent metaphysics.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(p. 47)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sheppard gives several examples of allegorising, such as &quot;Zeus and Hera representing the monad and the dyad&quot; (for what that is, see [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge#Henology)), of which there is a very nice discussion in Sheppard's book, and the death of the twelve captives by Achilles as symbolizing the demiurge. Other examples in Proclus include the [Judgment of Paris](http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/JudgementParis.html), where he makes the choosing of the goddesses an allegory for different lifestyles:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Proclus's understanding of the meaning of the story is that it &quot;hints at&quot; (αἰνίττεται) the choice among lives of different sorts, the regal (Hera), the philosophical (apparently Athena), and the erotic (Aphrodite). An important source for this is to be found in two passages of the *Phaedrus* [i.e. a work by Plato - CW], but the passages from Plato are not very well suited to the explanation of the myth, and Procus must twist them considerably in the attempt to make them appear so.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Lamberton 1997, p. 202ff.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One further thing of note, Proclus most certainly thinks that Homer himself is allegorizing, and that as a poet, he is simultaneously crafting both layers, the plain meaning and the allegory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Emtwt.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4764" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="1002" RevisionGUID="639afa3c-f66b-4b02-8539-034b626f4a65" CreationDate="2015-07-26T21:24:35.207" UserDisplayName="user124" Comment="15" />
  <row Id="4765" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1044" RevisionGUID="5b3b1577-6e8d-4bb0-856c-3e7524b5e6e8" CreationDate="2015-07-26T23:59:31.070" UserId="568" Comment="Ficing the tone and structuring it a little." Text="***By mistake I actually answered the questions why and how instead of when prior to answering when.***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**In a nutshell**: If you are interested on the subject, read bellow. Otherwise, the accepted answer was pretty much the last edit of my post. While it's still probable that Bram Stoker did not think of the &quot;no reflection&quot; feature, it's considered his invention.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Vampires:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Vampires are ancient Balkan mythological being. The word actually depicts pretty much any form of non ethereal undead (contrary to the popular belief of capes, fangs and etc). As such their soul usually passed on to the next world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was believed that the mirror holds and reflects a part of your soul.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like VixenPopuli said it can't reflect what you don't own.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This also explains why Chinese vampires are terrified of their reflection, because they are reminded that they have no soul.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also. back in the past, mirrors were made out of silver, and actually Balkan werewolves are considered a type of a vampire, so... if you add 2+2 u get 4. **It's quite possible that the modern myth is a combination of the silver and soul reflection theories.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As of the earlier myths... lol we are talking about centuries BC. Times before any written language.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other words it's impossible to tell how it appeared, but the most plausible theories are: **No soul, thus No reflection** and **Bram Stoker's imagination and bad translations, born from lack of understanding.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I mean, Bram Stoker did pretty lame job at describing the vampires, but they were sort of &quot;the thing&quot; back in the days and everybody just went along with it, which eventually brought us Edward the sparkling fairy. So I won't be surprised if someone told him that vampires are terrified of mirrors, and he tried to guess why, which spawned the myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Edit**: FAST google search:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Vampires][1] Wikipedia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Link from the bibliography. Fixed.][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[China Vampires Jiangshi][3], another wikipedia Article.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Random][4] [articles][5] [which][6] [pretty][7] [much][8] [repeat][9] [what I just said.][10]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, asking a Bulgarian about vampires is like asking a netflix addicted zombie fan about the zombie apocalypse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now about the Stoker thing(or how he did a sloppy job, since in the comments OP's comment sort of implied that stoker didn't do nothing wrong). (**Warning** Off Topic):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Gypsies are afraid of vampires and will not enter their territories. Actually they are far more superstitious than normal people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 2. Wooden stake - Actually is a specific type of wood. Cornus also known  as dogwood. And it is not required to be a stake. Even a needle will help you. Since vampires are considered something like giant balloons full of blood. The word that describes the item is Шип which can be translated as pretty much everything in between a stake, spike and a big needle. Depending on the dialect. Also the heart is also a myth. **EDIT** this thing about the wood is only about the Balkan Vampires,the Chinese ones are slain by peach tree. So it can only be a tree that destroys evil. In other words a wooden stake will not help you in 905 of the cases.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 3. He completely skipped the &quot;cut their feet&quot; part. Yeah, you can kill vampires by cutting their feet so that won't get up and attack the living, which will make em die of starvation. Which is pretty much the usual way vampires were killed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 4. People don't fear vampires, they gang up to slay them when they are still young. Thus Frankenstein is more of a vampire book than Dracula.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 5. Many many many other historical and translation issues. Yup Dracula was the Edward Cullen of the Victorian age. Sparkle, sparkle. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There were more but this post is not about this and I didn't finish the book. I made it up to like page +/- 150 of Dracula and it made me understand why people burned books back in the days...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;for more info write &quot;vampire burials/graves&quot; on google. It's full of info.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**EDIT 2:** Additional info. This time on Vampire myths instead of Stoker's mistakes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. There is no popular, written story dating prior to Bram Stoker, claiming that vampires are not reflected in mirrors. Actually there are many things about vampires that appeared after Stoker wrote his novel. I wonder why?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. Vampires, and bloodsuckers in general are far older than the bible itself and appear through out the history in almost all mythology from China to Egypt and eastern Europe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. The only known ancient vampires, prior to the book Dracula, that were related to mirrors, were the Chinese ones. Also they had reflection, it's just that it scared them instead of not appearing. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. Stoker spawned a huge cult to his creation, not the mythological being vampyr. The Mythological creature vampyr is only remotely related to Dracula. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;5. The mirror is most probably derivation created from combining various sources describing different types of vampires.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also another shady source: Knowing your country's history. Also there were many authors that Mentioned in many of their books, the original vampires. Authors like Jordan Radichkov, Ivan Vazov and many others. They all describe different vampires.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**EDIT 3:** There are people that actually said it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ok, I came back and did a quick google search. One of the 1st [links][11]. I quote:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One very famous trait Stoker added is the inability to be seen in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mirrors, which is not something found in traditional Eastern European&#xD;&#xA;&gt; folklore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, warping mythology is not modern mythology. If tomorrow someone says that Centaurs were half fishes half penguins, and it becomes a thing, it will not be considered a mythology. The mythological being will still be a man who has a body of a horse instead of his bottom half.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%80&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.protobulgarians.com/PODSTRANITSA%20NA%20DR%20ZHIVKO%20VOYNIKOV/PRALULG-DIAL-DUM-1.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiangshi#Methods_and_items_used_to_counter_jiangshis&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://dariknews.bg/view_article.php?article_id=1350208&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://mgpz.org/mitoveizagadki/drugi/vampir.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.burgasnews.com/ezoterika-i-misterii/74275-vnimavaite-s-ogledaloto-mozhe-da-krie-dushata-vi&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.trud.bg/Article.asp?ArticleId=4451362&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://listverse.com/2010/09/30/8-vampire-myths-explained/&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.fvza.org/vmyths.html&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/38466/is-there-a-reason-given-as-to-why-vampires-reflections-cannot-be-seen&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://dracula.cc/literature/bram_stoker_dracula/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4766" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1047" RevisionGUID="e13ee97a-7af2-49ce-b88c-6d493b5d3c62" CreationDate="2015-07-27T14:50:19.217" UserId="183" Text="**Yes, both in characteristics and history.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Starting from [here](http://www.timelessmyths.com/celtic/faeries.html),&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Another writer, Wirt Sikes wrote in the British Goblins (1880), comparing the Welsh fairies with that of Norse/Teutonic fairies. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sikes says that there are four types in the Norse tradition:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1. elves,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2. dwarves and troll,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 3. nisses and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4. necks, mermen, and mermaids. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While in the Welsh traditions there are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1. The ellyllon, or the elves;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2. The coblynau, or the mine fairies;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 3. The bwbachod, or the household fairies;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4. The gwragedd annwn, or the fairies of the lakes and streams;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 5. The gwyllion, or the mountain fairies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Here, the classification of Welsh fairies distinguished household fairies from that of the mines, lakes and mountains. Like the Irish tradition, the Welsh can be further divided into solitary and social fairies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found [the text of *British Goblins*](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/34704/34704-h/34704-h.htm), where Sikes states (at the start of Chapter II)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Fairies being creatures of the imagination, it is not possible to classify them by fixed and immutable rules. In the exact sciences, there are laws which never vary, or if they vary, their very eccentricity is governed by precise rules. Even in the largest sense, comparative mythology must demean itself modestly in order to be tolerated in the severe company of the sciences. In presenting his subjects, therefore, the writer in this field can only govern himself by the purpose of orderly arrangement. To secure the maximum of system, for the sake of the student who employs the work for reference and comparison, with the minimum of dullness, for the sake of the general reader, is perhaps the limit of a reasonable ambition. Keightley[8] divides into four classes the Scandinavian elements of popular belief as to fairies, viz.:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1. The Elves;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2. The Dwarfs, or Trolls;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 3. The Nisses; and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4. The Necks, [12] Mermen, and Mermaids.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; How entirely arbitrary this division is, the student of Scandinavian folk-lore at once perceives. Yet it is perhaps as satisfactory as another. The fairies of Wales may be divided into five classes, if analogy be not too sharply insisted on. Thus we have&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1. The Ellyllon, or elves;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2. The Coblynau, or mine fairies;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 3. The Bwbachod, or household fairies;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4. The Gwragedd Annwn, or fairies of the lakes and streams; and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 5. The Gwyllion, or mountain fairies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Keightley&quot; refers to Thomas Keightley, the author of *Fairy Mythology*, from 1870. I found [an index of all its parts](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/tfm/index.htm). This is certainly harder to search through, but in [his analysis on Ireland](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/tfm/tfm132.htm), Keightley writes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The fairies of Ireland can hardly be said to differ in any respect from those of England and Scotland. Like them they are of diminutive size, rarely exceeding two feet in height; they live also in society, their ordinary abode being the interior of the mounds, called in Irish, Raths (Rahs), in English, Moats, the construction of which is, by the peasantry, ascribed to the Danes from whom, it might thence perhaps be inferred, the Irish got their fairies direct and not vid England.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [the more general summary of Celtic fairies](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/tfm/tfm131.htm), he writes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Yet in the popular creed of all these tribes, we meet at the present day beings exactly corresponding to the Dwarfs and Fairies of the Gotho-German nations. Of these beings there is no mention in any works--such as the Welsh Poems, and Mabinogion, the Poems of Ossian, or the different irish poems and romances--which can by any possibility lay claim to an antiquity anterior to the conquests of the Northmen. Is it not then a reasonable supposition that the Picts, Saxons, and other sons of the North, brought with them their Dwarfs and Kobolds, and communicated the knowledge of, and belief in, them to their Celtic and Cymric subjects and neighbours? Proceeding on this theory, we have placed the Celts and Cymry next to and after the Gotho-German nations, though they are perhaps their precursors in Europe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [his introduction to the fairies of Great Britain as a whole](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/tfm/tfm105.htm) (though perhaps ecluding the Celts), he writes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; We have already seen that the Anglo-Saxon conquerors of Britain had in their language the terms from which are derived Elf and Dwarf, and the inference is natural that their ideas respecting these beings corresponded with those of the Scandinavians and Germans. The same may be said. of the Picts, who, akin to the Scandinavians, early seized on the Scottish Lowlands. We therefore close our survey of the Fairy Mythology of the Gotho-German race with Great Britain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So there are quite a few parallels between Norse elves and Celtic fairies." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4767" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1048" RevisionGUID="791be99b-2986-48c0-9d30-1fc216013e07" CreationDate="2015-07-28T00:45:11.423" UserId="117" Text="From what I know, there were at least three ancient civilizations that believed that giants created the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Firstly, we have the Chinese, where the creation myth dates back to 600 BC, according to which, the giant Phan Ku creates the world and everything in it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Secondly, we have an Icelandic myth called *Prose Edda* where after some events, Imir the giant took form and the creation begun.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And last but not least, we have the Krachi people of Rongo in West Africa, where they believed that there was the vast blue god-giant Wulbarib.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why were there so many beliefs that giants creates the world?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4768" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1048" RevisionGUID="791be99b-2986-48c0-9d30-1fc216013e07" CreationDate="2015-07-28T00:45:11.423" UserId="117" Text="Why did many ancient civilizations believe that giants created the world?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4769" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1048" RevisionGUID="791be99b-2986-48c0-9d30-1fc216013e07" CreationDate="2015-07-28T00:45:11.423" UserId="117" Text="|creation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4770" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1049" RevisionGUID="30482212-ba88-4779-b174-1f84eda4ce82" CreationDate="2015-07-28T04:52:42.947" UserId="579" Text="In the west, we tend to think outside dragons as purely reptilian in nature - in other words, all scales, no fur - but many Asian representations of dragons show them with substantial amounts of fur.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is this the case with Asian dragons, and why the discrepancy between Asian and Western dragons?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4771" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1049" RevisionGUID="30482212-ba88-4779-b174-1f84eda4ce82" CreationDate="2015-07-28T04:52:42.947" UserId="579" Text="Why do some Asian dragons have fur?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4772" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1049" RevisionGUID="30482212-ba88-4779-b174-1f84eda4ce82" CreationDate="2015-07-28T04:52:42.947" UserId="579" Text="|dragons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4773" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1049" RevisionGUID="421fb48f-2054-4643-b339-04c4bcbfc566" CreationDate="2015-07-28T04:56:45.740" UserId="579" Comment="added 344 characters in body" Text="In the west, we tend to think outside dragons as purely reptilian in nature - in other words, all scales, no fur - but many Asian representations of dragons show them with substantial amounts of fur.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]   &#xD;&#xA;Furry Japanese Dragon &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]   &#xD;&#xA;Furry Vietnamese Dragon &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]   &#xD;&#xA;Furry Chinese Dragon &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is this the case with Asian dragons, and why the discrepancy between Asian and Western dragons?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/D6x5s.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/8gCrp.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/u2rdq.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4774" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1049" RevisionGUID="f97edc0b-738b-4adc-8d4f-b5047da847f4" CreationDate="2015-07-28T05:01:58.963" UserId="579" Comment="added 344 characters in body" Text="In the west, we tend to think outside dragons as purely reptilian in nature - in other words, all scales, no fur - but many Asian representations of dragons show them with substantial amounts of fur.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]   &#xD;&#xA;Scaly Western Dragon&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][5]][5]   &#xD;&#xA;Furry Japanese Dragons&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][6]][6]   &#xD;&#xA;Furry Vietnamese Dragon &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][7]][7]   &#xD;&#xA;Furry Chinese Dragon &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is this the case with Asian dragons, and why the discrepancy between Asian and Western dragons?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/KAcVG.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/pkfBR.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ZCPmC.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/EpaOv.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/D6x5s.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/8gCrp.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/u2rdq.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4775" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1049" RevisionGUID="fdddeaf6-f4b0-4d3a-ad51-604ed3ade475" CreationDate="2015-07-28T05:04:57.740" UserId="579" Comment="added 123 characters in body" Text="In the west, we tend to think outside dragons as purely reptilian in nature - in other words, all scales, no fur - but many Asian representations of dragons show them with substantial amounts of fur.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]   &#xD;&#xA;Scaly Western Dragon&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][5]][5]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][6]][6]   &#xD;&#xA;Furry Japanese Dragons&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][7]][7]   &#xD;&#xA;Furry Vietnamese Dragon &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][8]][8]   &#xD;&#xA;Furry Chinese Dragon &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is even true in more recent depictions of dragons from the east - these two images were produced by the Japanese animation company Studio Ghibli: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][9]][9]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][10]][10]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is this the case with Asian dragons, and why the discrepancy between Asian and Western dragons?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/KAcVG.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/fXmL5.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/o0GlX.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ZCPmC.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/EpaOv.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/D6x5s.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/8gCrp.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/u2rdq.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ErQ1m.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Prnut.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4776" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1049" RevisionGUID="339fff0d-4744-4ba8-848d-672fc8fcd686" CreationDate="2015-07-28T05:13:32.123" UserId="579" Comment="added 87 characters in body" Text="In the west, we tend to think outside dragons as purely reptilian in nature - in other words, all scales, no fur - but many Asian representations of dragons show them with substantial amounts of fur.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]   &#xD;&#xA;Scaly Western Dragon&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][5]][5]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][6]][6]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][7]][7]   &#xD;&#xA;Furry Japanese Dragons&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][8]][8]   &#xD;&#xA;Furry Vietnamese Dragon &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][9]][9]   &#xD;&#xA;Furry Chinese Dragon &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is even true in more recent depictions of dragons from the east - these two images were produced by the Japanese animation company Studio Ghibli: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][10]][10]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][11]][11]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is this the case with Asian dragons, and why the discrepancy between Asian and Western dragons?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/KAcVG.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/fXmL5.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/o0GlX.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ZCPmC.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/EpaOv.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/D6x5s.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/P9SI3.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/8gCrp.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/u2rdq.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ErQ1m.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Prnut.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4777" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1050" RevisionGUID="8c933b95-a673-4630-b33e-5e9d1e96d7ab" CreationDate="2015-07-28T05:19:06.120" UserId="579" Text="In the *Táin Bó , or *Cattle Raid of Cooley*, the great Irish hero Cuchulainn is said to undergo a process which appears to be quite similar to &quot;hulking out&quot;.  The most colorful translation of the phrase used to describe this transformation is &quot;warp spasm&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What did the warp spasm, and the results thereof, look like?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4778" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1050" RevisionGUID="8c933b95-a673-4630-b33e-5e9d1e96d7ab" CreationDate="2015-07-28T05:19:06.120" UserId="579" Text="What did Cuchulainn's warp spasm look like?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4779" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1050" RevisionGUID="8c933b95-a673-4630-b33e-5e9d1e96d7ab" CreationDate="2015-07-28T05:19:06.120" UserId="579" Text="|irish|celtic|tain-bo-cuailnge|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4780" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1049" RevisionGUID="42cc55ed-e87e-4eb5-b2f0-5a3c22778cd9" CreationDate="2015-07-28T05:36:09.873" UserId="579" Comment="added 10 characters in body; edited title" Text="In the west, we tend to think outside dragons as purely reptilian in nature - in other words, all scales, no fur - but many Asian representations of dragons show them with substantial amounts of fur (or hair).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]   &#xD;&#xA;Scaly Western Dragon&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][5]][5]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][6]][6]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][7]][7]   &#xD;&#xA;Furry Japanese Dragons&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][8]][8]   &#xD;&#xA;Furry Vietnamese Dragon &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][9]][9]   &#xD;&#xA;Furry Chinese Dragon &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is even true in more recent depictions of dragons from the east - these two images were produced by the Japanese animation company Studio Ghibli: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][10]][10]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][11]][11]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is this the case with Asian dragons, and why the discrepancy between Asian and Western dragons?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/KAcVG.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/fXmL5.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/o0GlX.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ZCPmC.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/EpaOv.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/D6x5s.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/P9SI3.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/8gCrp.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/u2rdq.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ErQ1m.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Prnut.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4781" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1049" RevisionGUID="42cc55ed-e87e-4eb5-b2f0-5a3c22778cd9" CreationDate="2015-07-28T05:36:09.873" UserId="579" Comment="added 10 characters in body; edited title" Text="Why do some Asian dragons have fur (or hair)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4782" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1051" RevisionGUID="9364240f-1c8c-4641-9366-2f802916c89f" CreationDate="2015-07-28T06:44:07.970" UserId="108" Text="It is important to note that **[East Asian dragons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_dragon) are in fact quite unrelated to [Western dragons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_dragon).** While they may have influenced each other, the two traditions emerged separately. They share the same name essentially only because of translation choices; there is fundamentally no reason why Chinese dragons shouldn't be different to European ones. Hence, the hair disparity ought to be unsurprising since *they are not the same creature in the first place.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Secondly, **East Asian dragons do not have furs in the usual sense of the word**, although they are often depicted with *beards or manes*. Canonically, the body of the Chinese dragon (from which Japanese, Korean and Vietnamese dragons originate) have **fish like scales**. While the exact appearance have varied over time, the fish scaled body has remained a constant feature of dragons in the Far Eastern tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As early as the Han Dynasty, a scholar named [Wang Fu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wang_Fu_(Han_dynasty)) introduced the concept that dragons resemble nine animals. The Ming Dynasty and scholar doctor [Li Shih-chen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Shizhen) writes in his magnum opus the [*Compendium of Materia Medica*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compendium_of_Materia_Medica) that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 龍者，鱗蟲之長也，王符言其形有九似：眼似兔，角似鹿，嘴似牛，頭似駝，身似蛇，腹似蜃，鱗似魚，爪似鷹，掌似虎 ... 口旁有鬚冉，頜下有明珠。  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dragons are the first of the scaled beasts. Wang Fu says it resembles nine animals: eyes like rabbits, antlers like deers, mouth like cows, head like camels, body like snakes, belly like [shellfish](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shen_(clam-monster)), scales like fish, claws like eagles, and paws like tigers ... its mouth is bearded, and there's a bright pearl below is jaw.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More relevant to visual depictions, a traditional mantra for dragon painting is:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 一畫鹿角二蝦目，三畫狗鼻四牛嘴，五畫獅鬃六魚鱗，七畫蛇身八火炎，九畫雞胸。  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; First, deer antlers. Second, shrimp eyes. Third, dog nose. Fourth, cow mouth. **Fifth, lion's mane.** Sixth, fish scales. Seventh, snake's body. Eighth, fire flames. Ninth, chicken's breast.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus for the most part, the hair on Asian dragons are limited to the head, either as beards or manes or both. The protrusions on the back of the dragon are not hair, but rather **backfins**. This is an ancient feature of Chinese dragons, dating back over three thousand years to Shang Dynasty era depictions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See below for a Song Dynasty dragon painted by the artist [Chen Rong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_Rong_(painter))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;IMHO The question's anime dragon and 3D art examples do not really depict traditional dragons. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/hmxgV.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/gtcGe.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4783" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1043" RevisionGUID="76f4e3b8-f443-465a-a0c1-bec478a322ea" CreationDate="2015-07-28T07:11:22.367" UserId="131" Comment="Tidied up, improved English" Text="Before we can derive the meaning behind the word, we need to first understand where the term originates. These sages can be considered philosophers that use their wisdom to help shape the foundation of Chinese culture, society, and even politics. But is that all?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Because much of Eastern Asian culture, language, and philosophy were borrowed from the Chinese to some extent, (I understand there are exceptions), for brevity I will focus mostly on its Chinese origin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a work originating from before the [Xia Dynasty][1] concerning the [&quot;Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors&quot;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Sovereigns_and_Five_Emperors) (三皇五帝, Sānhuáng wǔdì) (who they are differ depending on the source [see link]. I will not attempt to name them in order to avoid confusion). In it, there are three figures regarded as &quot;Three Sovereigns,&quot; who are hailed as &quot;god kings,&quot; and are considered the ultimate cultural heroes (and [regarded as demi-gods][2] in the myths) of Chinese history. They are said to have had magical powers and are credited with the basic technological inventions, social structure, and political norms of the time. During despotic times these figures are said to have been invoked as paragons of leadership.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The &quot;Five Emperors&quot; subsequently were regarded as legendary figures,&quot;sages kings&quot; depicted with perfect moral character. These figure were more worldly but historically intangible figures, like a mythical tribe leader, compared to the &quot;Three Sovereigns,&quot; who were considered divine beings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In essence these can be considered the first &quot;sages&quot; of Chinese legend. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Confucius is known to have revered these figures, [Emperor Yao](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Yao) and [Emperor Shun](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Shun) (two of the Five Emperors, according to some sources), [Yu the Great](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yu_the_Great) (described to be a decendant of the [Yellow Emperor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Emperor), one of the Three Soverigns by some sources) the [three true sages][3] 聖(人) (Shèng[rén]), as the pinnacle of human perfection, the equivalent of a saint in some regards.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Taoism the equivalent would be &quot;[仙][4]&quot; (Xiān), (the character itself can mean hermit or rather literally &quot;mountain person&quot;［人＋山］), related to [Eight Immortal Scholars of the Han](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_Immortals_of_Huainan), but the meaning has [changed][4] quite a bit over time. Thus the meaning of those two titles by themselves are the equivalent of the Buddhist term for the &quot;enlightened/awakened one&quot; (Buddha, which is [a title][5], not a name).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In short, the title of &quot;sage&quot; is what you would call an &quot;enlightened one,&quot; in a philosophical and/or spiritual sense. While the names may differ their end destinations are the same. Both Confucianism and Taoism walk the same path, but their ideals about it are different. Taoism seeks to free itself from worldly desires (as a hermit would live, confronting problems through the way of nature), but Confucianism is more about being a man of action, upholding the established hierarchy and fulfilling their given role as best they can (i.e. conquering problems through cultivating intellect and morals). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xia_dynasty&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_cult&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://books.google.com/books?id=dmCZmnFBypEC&amp;lpg=PA511&amp;dq=sheng%20confucius%20yu%20shun%20yao%20sage&amp;pg=PA511#v=onepage&amp;q=sheng%20confucius%20yu%20shun%20yao%20sage&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Xian_(Daoist_immortal)&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.lucidcafe.com/library/96jun/buddha.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xian_(Taoism)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4784" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1043" RevisionGUID="76f4e3b8-f443-465a-a0c1-bec478a322ea" CreationDate="2015-07-28T07:11:22.367" Comment="Proposed by 131 approved by 398, 108 edit id of 220" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4785" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1049" RevisionGUID="7ac800ec-1a83-4a12-abb5-598589f8f67e" CreationDate="2015-07-28T07:12:34.490" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="|chinese|dragons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4786" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1051" RevisionGUID="3241d31f-5190-4abc-bb5b-3b822c42efc4" CreationDate="2015-07-28T10:31:24.340" UserId="108" Comment="added 414 characters in body" Text="It is important to note that **[East Asian dragons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_dragon) are in fact quite unrelated to [Western dragons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_dragon).** While they may have influenced each other, the two traditions emerged separately. They share the same name essentially only because of translation choices; there is fundamentally no reason why Chinese dragons shouldn't be different to European ones. Hence, the hair disparity ought to be unsurprising since *they are not the same creature in the first place.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Secondly, **East Asian dragons do not have furs in the usual sense of the word**, although they are often depicted with *beards or manes*. Canonically, the body of the Chinese dragon (from which Japanese, Korean and Vietnamese dragons originate) have **fish like scales**. While the exact appearance have varied over time, the fish scaled body has remained a constant feature of dragons in the Far Eastern tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As early as the Han Dynasty, a scholar named [Wang Fu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wang_Fu_(Han_dynasty)) introduced the concept that dragons resemble nine animals. The Ming Dynasty and scholar doctor [Li Shih-chen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Shizhen) writes in his magnum opus the [*Compendium of Materia Medica*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compendium_of_Materia_Medica) that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 龍者，鱗蟲之長也，王符言其形有九似：眼似兔，角似鹿，嘴似牛，頭似駝，身似蛇，腹似蜃，鱗似魚，爪似鷹，掌似虎 ... 口旁有鬚冉，頜下有明珠。  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dragons are the first of the scaled beasts. Wang Fu says it resembles nine animals: eyes like rabbits, antlers like deers, mouth like cows, head like camels, body like snakes, belly like [shellfish](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shen_(clam-monster)), scales like fish, claws like eagles, and paws like tigers ... its mouth is bearded, and there's a bright pearl below is jaw.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More relevant to visual depictions, a traditional mantra for dragon painting is:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 一畫鹿角二蝦目，三畫狗鼻四牛嘴，五畫獅鬃六魚鱗，七畫蛇身八火炎，九畫雞胸。  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; First, deer antlers. Second, shrimp eyes. Third, dog nose. Fourth, cow mouth. **Fifth, lion's mane.** Sixth, fish scales. Seventh, snake's body. Eighth, fire flames. Ninth, chicken's breast.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These traditional descriptions of dragons also gives us some insight into why the Chinese version has hair. Whereas the European dragon has a strong reptilian quality, their Asian counterparts are considered a **composite of different beasts - many of whom has plenty of hair**. Thus, despite a (probably) serpentine origin, the Chinese dragons acquired hair on the head and limbs. These were also the same body parts that did not come from fish or snakes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that the protrusions on the back of the dragons are not hair, but rather **backfins**. This is an ancient feature of Chinese dragons, dating back over three thousand years to Shang Dynasty era depictions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See below for a Song Dynasty conception of the dragon, painted by the artist [Chen Rong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_Rong_(painter)). This was about 1000 years ago,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;IMHO The question's anime dragon and 3D art examples do not really depict traditional dragons. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/hmxgV.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/gtcGe.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4789" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1052" RevisionGUID="feb8c8a3-e358-4b3e-9186-dce7b4132298" CreationDate="2015-07-28T17:31:33.630" UserId="42" Text="Hulking out is a fairly appropriate comparison to the riastrad, or warp spasm, as Kinsella put it, but far more monstrous than just green-tinged and well-muscled.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Massively muscled, lower legs twisted around backward, one eye sucked into his head, the other eye having fallen outward, cheeks peeled away from his mouth to reveal his jaw, his own internal organs visible in his mouth, hair stood up in massive spikes strong enough to skewer an apple, and blood spurting from his forehead.  Rather intimidating all told.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The fullest description occurs after the slaying of the boy troop of Emain Macha.  Kinsella's translation puts it this way:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The first warp-spasm seized Cúchulainn, and made him into a monstrous thing, hideous and shapeless, unheard of. His shanks and his joints, every knuckle and angle and organ from head to foot, shook like a tree in the flood or a reed in the stream. His body made a furious twist inside his skin, so that his feet and shins switched to the rear and his heels and calves switched to the front... On his head the temple-sinews stretched to the nape of his neck, each mighty, immense, measureless knob as big as the head of a month-old child... he sucked one eye so deep into his head that a wild crane couldn't probe it onto his cheek out of the depths of his skull; the other eye fell out along his cheek. His mouth weirdly distorted: his cheek peeled back from his jaws until the gullet appeared, his lungs and his liver flapped in his mouth and throat, his lower jaw struck the upper a lion-killing blow, and fiery flakes large as a ram's fleece reached his mouth from his throat... The hair of his head twisted like the tangle of a red thornbush stuck in a gap; if a royal apple tree with all its kingly fruit were shaken above him, scarce an apple would reach the ground but each would be spiked on a bristle of his hair as it stood up on his scalp with rage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which is actually fairly concise, compared to the [very direct translation of Joseph Dunn](http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/ScythedChariot.html), which goes on for four paragraphs in full description of the process.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then took place the first twisting-fit and rage of the royal hero Cuchulain, so that he made a terrible, many-shaped, wonderful, unheard of thing of himself. His flesh trembled about him like a pole against the torrent or like a bulrush against the stream, every member and every joint and every point and every knuckle of him from crown to ground. He made a mad whirling-feat of his body within his hide. His feet and his shins and his knees slid so that they came behind him. His heels and his calves and his hams shifted so that they passed to the front. The muscles of his calves moved so that they came to the front of his shins, so that each huge knot was the size of a soldier's balled fist. He stretched the sinews of his head so that they stood out on the nape of his neck, hill-like lumps, huge, incalculable, vast, immeasurable and as large as the head of a month-old child.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He next made a ruddy bowl of his face and his countenance. He gulped down one eye into his head so that it would be hard work if a wild crane succeeded in drawing it out on to the middle of his cheek from the rear of his skull. Its mate sprang forth till it came out on his cheek. His mouth was distorted monstrously. He drew the cheek from the jaw-bone so that the interior of his throat was to be seen. His lungs and his lights stood out so that they fluttered in his mouth and his gullet. He struck a mad lion's blow with the upper jaw on its fellow so that as large as a wether's fleece of a three year old was each red, fiery flake which his teeth forced into his mouth from his gullet.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There was heard the loud clap of his heart against his breast like the yelp of a howling bloodhound or like a lion going among bears. There were seen the torches of the Badb, and the rain clouds of poison, and the sparks of glowing-red fire, blazing and flashing in hazes and mists over his head with the seething of the truly wild wrath that rose up above him. His hair bristled all over his head like branches of a redthorn thrust into a gap in a great hedge. Had a king's apple-tree laden with royal fruit been shaken around him, scarce an apple of them all would have passed over him to the ground, but rather would an apple have stayed stuck on each single hair there, for the twisting of the anger which met it as it rose from his hair above him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Lon Laith ('Champion's Light') stood out of his forehead, so that it was as long and as thick as a warrior's whetstone. As high, as thick, as strong, as steady, as long as the sail-tree of some huge prime ship was the straight spout of dark blood which arose right on high from the very ridge-pole of his crown, so that a black fog of witchery was made thereof like to the smoke from a king's hostel what time the king comes to be ministered to at nightfall of a winter's day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Just for fun, a number of comics have been made about and inspired by Cuchulain and the Tain.  Here are a couple instances of a riastrad in comics:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;[![Knaak &quot;The Hound&quot; cover][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;Cover of Richard Knaak's &quot;The Hound&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;Was [to be published in 2013](http://mybookgoggles.blogspot.com/2012/06/cuchulainn-heart-of-hound-by-richard.html), but I can't find it for sale&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;[![Paddy Brown's Cattle Raid of Cooley][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;Patrick Brown's &quot;The Cattle Raid of Cooley&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;[Chapter 7, Page 20](http://paddybrown.co.uk/?p=4399)&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;[![&quot;Slaine&quot;, Fabry][3]][3]  &#xD;&#xA;From the &quot;Slaine&quot; graphic novel  &#xD;&#xA;Inspired by the Tain and Cuchullain  &#xD;&#xA;Artist:  Glenn Fabry&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;[![&quot;Slaine&quot;][4]][4]  &#xD;&#xA;Another from &quot;Slaine&quot;&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which all seem at least a little on the conservative side to me, given the incredible, hyperbolic description in the text.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/61nJP.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/6vNQB.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/rns6D.png&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/YFmzh.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4792" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="941" RevisionGUID="bf2d7c3c-44ba-4714-9e8c-39b091d626d3" CreationDate="2015-07-29T19:36:30.230" UserDisplayName="user124" Comment="16" />
  <row Id="4793" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1053" RevisionGUID="fee5965c-3de9-4d58-9e65-e96812c2a843" CreationDate="2015-07-30T01:29:46.067" UserId="292" Text="I can only speak to the ones I know. The Greeks postulated two earlier generations of gods, including the [Titans][1], who fought Zeus and co. for domination of the world, and lost. (Greek myth is complicated by the three generations: primeval gods, the Titans, and the Olympians.)  &#xD;&#xA;The other example that springs to mind is the [Fomorians][2] in Irish myth, who aren't giants, but once again are an earlier and somewhat monstrous ([Balor of the Evil Eye][3]) race who fight the new gods, the Tuatha de Danann, for dominance.  &#xD;&#xA;Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that gods come in generations, and the earlier ones are often distinguised by being less like idealized humans than the later gods. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/greek-mythology/titans.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fomorians&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.mysteriousbritain.co.uk/pantheons/balor-of-the-evil-eye.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4800" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1047" RevisionGUID="e630a4f7-89cf-4fb3-8b27-b98fce9a441d" CreationDate="2015-08-03T11:50:57.060" UserId="183" Comment="added 196 characters in body" Text="**Yes, both in characteristics and history.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Starting from [here](http://www.timelessmyths.com/celtic/faeries.html),&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Another writer, Wirt Sikes wrote in the British Goblins (1880), comparing the Welsh fairies with that of Norse/Teutonic fairies. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sikes says that there are four types in the Norse tradition:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1. elves,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2. dwarves and troll,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 3. nisses and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4. necks, mermen, and mermaids. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While in the Welsh traditions there are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1. The ellyllon, or the elves;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2. The coblynau, or the mine fairies;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 3. The bwbachod, or the household fairies;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4. The gwragedd annwn, or the fairies of the lakes and streams;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 5. The gwyllion, or the mountain fairies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Here, the classification of Welsh fairies distinguished household fairies from that of the mines, lakes and mountains. Like the Irish tradition, the Welsh can be further divided into solitary and social fairies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found [the text of *British Goblins*](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/34704/34704-h/34704-h.htm), where Sikes states (at the start of Chapter II)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Fairies being creatures of the imagination, it is not possible to classify them by fixed and immutable rules. In the exact sciences, there are laws which never vary, or if they vary, their very eccentricity is governed by precise rules. Even in the largest sense, comparative mythology must demean itself modestly in order to be tolerated in the severe company of the sciences. In presenting his subjects, therefore, the writer in this field can only govern himself by the purpose of orderly arrangement. To secure the maximum of system, for the sake of the student who employs the work for reference and comparison, with the minimum of dullness, for the sake of the general reader, is perhaps the limit of a reasonable ambition. Keightley[8] divides into four classes the Scandinavian elements of popular belief as to fairies, viz.:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1. The Elves;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2. The Dwarfs, or Trolls;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 3. The Nisses; and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4. The Necks, [12] Mermen, and Mermaids.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; How entirely arbitrary this division is, the student of Scandinavian folk-lore at once perceives. Yet it is perhaps as satisfactory as another. The fairies of Wales may be divided into five classes, if analogy be not too sharply insisted on. Thus we have&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1. The Ellyllon, or elves;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2. The Coblynau, or mine fairies;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 3. The Bwbachod, or household fairies;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4. The Gwragedd Annwn, or fairies of the lakes and streams; and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 5. The Gwyllion, or mountain fairies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Keightley&quot; refers to Thomas Keightley, the author of *Fairy Mythology*, from 1870. I found [an index of all its parts](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/tfm/index.htm). This is certainly harder to search through, but in [his analysis on Ireland](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/tfm/tfm132.htm), Keightley writes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The fairies of Ireland can hardly be said to differ in any respect from those of England and Scotland. Like them they are of diminutive size, rarely exceeding two feet in height; they live also in society, their ordinary abode being the interior of the mounds, called in Irish, Raths (Rahs), in English, Moats, the construction of which is, by the peasantry, ascribed to the Danes from whom, it might thence perhaps be inferred, the Irish got their fairies direct and not vid England.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [the more general summary of Celtic fairies](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/tfm/tfm131.htm), he writes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Yet in the popular creed of all these tribes, we meet at the present day beings exactly corresponding to the Dwarfs and Fairies of the Gotho-German nations. Of these beings there is no mention in any works--such as the Welsh Poems, and Mabinogion, the Poems of Ossian, or the different irish poems and romances--which can by any possibility lay claim to an antiquity anterior to the conquests of the Northmen. Is it not then a reasonable supposition that the Picts, Saxons, and other sons of the North, brought with them their Dwarfs and Kobolds, and communicated the knowledge of, and belief in, them to their Celtic and Cymric subjects and neighbours? Proceeding on this theory, we have placed the Celts and Cymry next to and after the Gotho-German nations, though they are perhaps their precursors in Europe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [his introduction to the fairies of Great Britain as a whole](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/tfm/tfm105.htm) (though perhaps ecluding the Celts), he writes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; We have already seen that the Anglo-Saxon conquerors of Britain had in their language the terms from which are derived Elf and Dwarf, and the inference is natural that their ideas respecting these beings corresponded with those of the Scandinavians and Germans. The same may be said. of the Picts, who, akin to the Scandinavians, early seized on the Scottish Lowlands. We therefore close our survey of the Fairy Mythology of the Gotho-German race with Great Britain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So there are quite a few parallels between Norse elves and Celtic fairies:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The elves are akin to the ellyllon&#xD;&#xA; - The dwarves and trolls are akin to the coblynau&#xD;&#xA; - The nisses are akin to the bwbachod&#xD;&#xA; - The necks, men and mermaids are akin to the gwragedd annwn" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4801" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="1002" RevisionGUID="629184a5-7b90-4476-9691-1711aeb926ac" CreationDate="2015-08-03T22:56:45.417" UserId="-1" Comment="15" />
  <row Id="4802" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="770" RevisionGUID="d64d30da-138a-400d-ba87-76e15b104c33" CreationDate="2015-08-04T00:31:16.060" UserId="183" Comment="added 162 characters in body" Text="According to the ever-helpful [theoi.com](http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Poseidon.html) (emphasis mine on all quotes),&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Being the ruler of the sea (the Mediterranean), he is described as gathering clouds and calling forth storms, but at the same he has it in his power to grant a successful voyage and save those who are in danger, and **all other marine divinities are subject to him.** As the sea surrounds and holds the earth, he himself is described as the god who holds the earth (gaiêochos), and who has it in his power to shake the earth (enosichthôn, kinêtêr gas).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That just so happens to be one of the only parts of the page lacking in-line citations. Go figure. However, it later quotes *Aelian, On Animals 12. 45 (trans. Schofield) (Greek natural history C2nd to 3rd A.D.)*:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This is the hymn: **‘Highest of the gods, lord of the sea,**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On [another page](http://www.theoi.com/greek-mythology/sea-gods.html), it explicitly says:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The ancient Greek term for sea gods was &quot;Theoi Halioi&quot; or &quot;Theoi Einalioi.&quot; These deities were commanded by the Sea-King Poseidon and his queen Amphitrite.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, [there was an older god](http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/sea-god.htm), Pontus, the husband/brother of Gaia. He was around long before Poseidon, and was the patriarch of all the sea/river/water gods. I don't know if/when Poseidon became dominant over Pontus, if that ever happened. However, the hymn I referenced above probably dates to a time when, in Greek mythology, Poseidon was considered to be *the* top marine god, as opposed to Pontus." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4808" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1055" RevisionGUID="535f9ae0-dab3-482f-a8c6-3bb17351305b" CreationDate="2015-08-04T18:32:09.837" UserId="87" Text="The first chapter of the Kalevala always gives a specific number of years (sometimes multiple numbers) when describing time skips. The three examples I saw are quoted below. **Is there any known significance to these numbers or time periods?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. After the Air-daughter becomes pregnant:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; She bore a hard womb  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; a difficult bellyful  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **seven hundred years**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **nine ages of man;**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; but no birth was born  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; no creature was created.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. When the Air-daughter starts her creation after the incident with the scaup's eggs:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Now in the ninth year**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **in the tenth summer**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; she raised her head from the sea  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; she lifts up her poll:  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; she began her creation  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; forming her creatures  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; on the clear high seas  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; upon the open expanse.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. When Väinämöinen is born:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then he tripped head first seaward  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; hands first he tumbled waveward  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; the man stays in the sea's care  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; the fellow in the billows.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **He lolled there five years**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **both five years and six**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **seven years and eight.**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first one (&quot;seven hundred years&quot;) in particular feels like it might mean something, but I don't see translation notes on any of them, and they clearly have nothing to do with how long a real-world pregnancy would last.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;P.S. If it matters, I'm reading the Oxford World's Classics edition translated by Keith Bosley." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4809" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1055" RevisionGUID="535f9ae0-dab3-482f-a8c6-3bb17351305b" CreationDate="2015-08-04T18:32:09.837" UserId="87" Text="Do the seemingly random timespans in the Kalevala creation story have any significance?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4810" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1055" RevisionGUID="535f9ae0-dab3-482f-a8c6-3bb17351305b" CreationDate="2015-08-04T18:32:09.837" UserId="87" Text="|creation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4811" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1055" RevisionGUID="bcb424e8-b037-4313-bbc3-5b60ab0b1d35" CreationDate="2015-08-05T05:57:36.883" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="|creation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4812" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="941" RevisionGUID="de97bf94-3b0b-49a8-8dd9-4a1d96f015b1" CreationDate="2015-08-06T20:53:23.937" UserId="-1" Comment="16" />
  <row Id="4815" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1056" RevisionGUID="1d01c499-f4d9-4aad-9c3d-2f8b45b1ce4a" CreationDate="2015-08-10T21:11:23.613" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="In the epic of Gilgamesh, gilgamesh rejects Ishtar's advances, after describing the harm she caused to her previous lovers (ie she turned a Shepard into a wolf, etc). I have a few questions about that part of the story:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Why does Ishtar do those horrible things to her lovers?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. Is there a broader significance to that scene?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4816" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1056" RevisionGUID="1d01c499-f4d9-4aad-9c3d-2f8b45b1ce4a" CreationDate="2015-08-10T21:11:23.613" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="Context behind Gilgamesh's rejection of Ishtar" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4817" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1056" RevisionGUID="1d01c499-f4d9-4aad-9c3d-2f8b45b1ce4a" CreationDate="2015-08-10T21:11:23.613" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="|gilgamesh|inanna|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4820" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1057" RevisionGUID="5f82edbe-c784-4d85-897c-e2d833cfc818" CreationDate="2015-08-11T07:02:04.463" UserId="91" Text="[Wu Song][1] is a major character in the Chinese classical novel Water Margin; his claim to fame is killing a tiger with his bare hands.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since Water Margin draws heavily from folklore, and the story of fighting off a large predator isn't exactly original (cf. Samson, Heracles), I suspect that Wu Song's character is based on earlier stories of tiger-slaying heroes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any evidence of how Wu Song came about? Did the character exist before the novel, perhaps under different names?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_Song" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4821" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1057" RevisionGUID="5f82edbe-c784-4d85-897c-e2d833cfc818" CreationDate="2015-08-11T07:02:04.463" UserId="91" Text="What are the origins of Wu Song the Tiger Slayer?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4822" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1057" RevisionGUID="5f82edbe-c784-4d85-897c-e2d833cfc818" CreationDate="2015-08-11T07:02:04.463" UserId="91" Text="|chinese|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4823" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1058" RevisionGUID="872ed7bb-c39e-4d18-97f8-cc9b035c572a" CreationDate="2015-08-12T16:23:45.713" UserId="638" Text="Roman Gods, I think, lived where there duties took them. This would be most inline with Italic and Etruscan Gods, who lived in the skies, upon teh earth, under the earth, in the waters. A river god would live in his river, a goddess of the land in her land. The lares and penates lived in the houses or with the families they protected. This has been published widely (e.g. [L.B. van der Meer, 1987](http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bronze-Liver-Piacenza-Polytheistic-Archaeology/dp/9070265419/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1439394945&amp;sr=8-2&amp;keywords=piacenza+liver)). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jupiter, like most Roman deities is most cognate with Etruscan and Italic deities. When the Romans conquered Greece, they found many similarities between their own gods and goddesses and those of the Greeks. The most likely explanation is that many (though not all) of the Greek gods were derived of Etruscan origins, like the Roman gods. Others were from the East, such as Dionysos, and Hekate.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems unlikely that the Roman pantheon was &quot;infected&quot; with Greek influences, before Greece was conquered, as the only similarities are the ones that likely stem from Etruscan origin. Not a single Greek influence that was of Eastern origin made it into Roman mythology until well after the contacts with Greek colonies in Southern Italy or even the conquest of Greece, which would be statistically most unlikely if the Greeks had &quot;infected&quot; the Roman pantheon before they were conquered.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It would therefore surprise me if Roman Gods lived on Mount Olympos. I think it would be almost impossible for such a notion to have existed in the centuries of Roman mythology before the conquest of Greece, and even after the conquest of Greece, if such a change had happened, one would have assumed there would be explicit mentioning of this. More explicit than Seneca's [Hercules Furens](http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaHerculesFurens.html).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even if later in the Roman empire there had been &quot;infection&quot; of Roman religious beliefs by Greek mythology, and even if every single text proving that got lost, does Hercules Furens prove anything. In that text Seneca never claims any God lives on Olympos. He only says Jupiter &lt;i&gt;rules&lt;/i&gt; Olympos, but in the same play Jupiter is said to rule several other places as well: the infernal world (line 46-62 and 592-615), the heavens (line 709-730) and all fires (line 926-938). If ruling something means he lives in it, then at the very least Jupiter lives in many places.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Many Roman deities have epiteths tying them to a place. Perhaps those refer to places where they live?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4825" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1059" RevisionGUID="7f658edd-4542-4208-a605-afcf4a828ac2" CreationDate="2015-08-12T22:18:42.890" UserId="638" Text="One neurologist, J. Afonso-Gomez, made a case that vampire myths originate from humans infected with rabies. His work was published in the prestigious journal [Neurology](http://www.neurology.org/content/51/3/856) back in 1998. If - and that is a big if - he is right, then the mirror issue may well be very old. Those suffering from rabies are often startled or even scared when seeing their own mirror image. More so when this is unexpected. This could then be the origin of Bram Stoker's description that vampires have no mirror image at all. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4826" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1060" RevisionGUID="a9444fb5-0ac3-45e8-853c-68eec98bc03b" CreationDate="2015-08-13T02:04:51.053" UserId="201" Text="In &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/Hero-Thousand-Faces-Bollingen-No/dp/0691017840/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1439431154&amp;sr=1-2&quot;&gt;*The Hero with a Thousand Faces,*&lt;/a&gt; Joseph Campbell talked about the &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth&quot;&gt;monomyth,&lt;/a&gt; and the overarching structure of the Hero's Journey: the hero is called on an adventure, may have a helper, goes through various trials, passes thresholds, goes through a death and rebirth, eventually succeeds and transforms, and returns to the starting point with new knowledge. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Campbell originally wrote in 1949, with access to thousands of years of comparative culture and a literate, open, secular, post-Enlightenment society. Did any ancient scholars (let's define &quot;ancient&quot; as &quot;pre-Gutenberg press&quot;) draw similar conclusions about various religions and myths? That is, was Campbell really the first to step far enough back to see all the similarities? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4827" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1060" RevisionGUID="a9444fb5-0ac3-45e8-853c-68eec98bc03b" CreationDate="2015-08-13T02:04:51.053" UserId="201" Text="Did any ancient cultures or scholars recognize the Hero's Journey monomyth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4828" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1060" RevisionGUID="a9444fb5-0ac3-45e8-853c-68eec98bc03b" CreationDate="2015-08-13T02:04:51.053" UserId="201" Text="|comparative|history|monomyth|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4829" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1061" RevisionGUID="937c5fd6-fcef-4f80-8c58-576009977aa0" CreationDate="2015-08-14T03:58:33.180" UserId="398" Text="The main reason why it exists in the narrative is that it precedes the epic by quite a long time. Before the epic of Gilgamesh was put together as one single narrative, hymns of Gilgamesh were performed separately. These are the Sumerian predecessors of what's commonly read today. They can fortunately for us be easily found on the internet at [The Electronic Text Corpus of Sumerian Literature (ETCSL)](http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=c.1.8.1*).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you can see, there were several hymns in the Gilgamesh cycle, and the bull of Heaven is one of them. All of these except Gilgamesh and Aga were eventually incorporated into a single narrative. This seems to have happened first ca. 2000-1600 BCE. What's often translated and put into books, however, is a recension of this text made roughly a thousand years later. By that time, it would be too late to remove it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Historically, the scene has to be rather late overall. The original story was probably the hymn of [Gilgamesh and Aga](http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.1.8.1.1). Aga (also Akka) in the myths was the son of Enmebaragesi, king of Kish, whom we know now was actually a real person from inscriptions[1]. A plausible scenario for the development of Gilgamesh follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Enmebaragesi of Kish ruled over Sumer, and was succeeded by Aga, who was then conquered by Gilgamesh of Uruk, leading to Uruk's predominance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This could have (and would have) been ritually performed at Uruk, where Gilgamesh could then fade into legends. Furthermore, other myths would be attracted to it. First, the Humbaba quest likely originated with the Ur III dynasty.[2] Originally entirely separate from the Gilgamesh cycle, the story of Dumuzi and Inanna is well chronicled in the Sumerian literature. You can also read them at the [ETCSL](http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=c.1.4*). The older view, established by Frazer, was to see Dumuzi was a dying and rising fertility god, but as JoAnn Scurlock points out, the evidence for that is very weak.[3] Instead, he appears to:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; embrace [the onerous duties of kingship], and to suffer the ultimate penalty for failure.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If this reading is correct, it explains why Dumuzi, lover of Inanna (later Ishtar) became the predecessor of Gilgamesh (and defeater of Enmebaragesi), itself evidenced by the unusual name appearing as a doublet (he's distinguished in the sources, but it's clear it was one name that became two).[5] Dumuzi would be the example of a king failing at his duties, while Gilgamesh would have been a good king (the part about Gilgamesh being a bad king in the beginning is missing in the Sumerian hymns and is presumably a later addition).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ritually, it appears that there was a differentiation of some sort between Dumuzi and Gilgamesh. The Inanna/Dumuzi relationship looks similar to other goddess/dead mortal ones. Beyond them, we have Adonis and Aphrodite (Adonis actually comes from the Semitic root _adon_ which means &quot;lord&quot;, and was a title for Tammuz, the Babylonian version of Dumuzi; Aphrodite has similar myths to Inanna/Ishtar, e.g. she's insulted by Diomedes in the _Iliad_ and reacts suspiciously similar to Ishtar when she's insulted by Gilgamesh, i.e. going up to heaven and crying to her parents; [Homer, _Iliad_, 5.297–430](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad5.htm#_Toc239244903)), Cybele and Attis, and perhaps too Aphrodite and Paris.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These couples mean something—though what exactly it's difficult to say—about the function of kingship in ancient Sumer and Babylon. The king was also the chief priest, and there seems to be some sort of relationship between the king and the goddess, as you can see from my post on [Shulgi and Inanna](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/962/are-there-kali-types-deities-in-other-pantheons/965#965).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At this point we can only speculate, but perhaps Gilgamesh's rejection of her is tied to a religious dispute or a political dispute? If there is any truth about Gilgamesh's involvement in the building of the temple of Ninlil as recorded in the [Tummal inscription](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tummal_Inscription), then there might have been rivalry between worshipers of Ninlil and Inanna that played out in Gilgamesh's favoring of the former over the latter. It's difficult to say for sure, and of course, all this is not only hypothetical, but also likely to remain unanswerable.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Interestingly, Homer in the [Iliadic parallel](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad5.htm#_Toc239244903), used it for polemic against the claims of Aphrodite as a warrior goddess, since Zeus chides her for trying to engage in combat. We know that in Cyprus, where there was a strong Phoenician population, Aphrodite *was* dressed in warrior garb. I think there's something there.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Aphrodite in warrior garb. Mosaic, found in Paphos, Cyprus][6]][7]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Aphrodite in warrior garb. Mosaic, found in Paphos, Cyprus)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Narratologically, the inclusion of the scene makes sense for the overall story, and in fact is one of the more important parts. One of the important themes of the work as a whole is the acceptance of death for mortals. Recall that the original impetus for the slaying of Humbaba is for eternal glory: &quot;I will establish for ever a name eternal!&quot; ([Y 187](https://books.google.com/books?id=eCZRK_61adMC&amp;pg=PA20), trans. Andrew George). In order for Gilgamesh to really seek out immortality (almost always denied to mortals, with Ziusudra being the one exception), he must gain a reason for wanting it. This is accomplished in the death of his friend, Enkidu. And who else, except Inanna, who already was responsible for the death of Dumuzi, would be implicated? The association between the two would be even stronger since there are hints of immortality in the Dumuzi hymns.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus this scene provides that pivotal climax which leads him to seek out immortality and ultimately the acceptance of his fate, since it is Enkidu from the Netherworld he sees.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=bCn5-COYETwC&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.com/books?id=cxjuHTH6I2sC&amp;pg=PA78&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://books.google.com/books?id=9UeVAQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA161&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://books.google.com/books?id=9UeVAQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA172&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://books.google.com/books?id=5gUNVtrlr28C&amp;pg=PA102&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/8l9hj.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.flickr.com/photos/j-fish/galleries/72157632964336921/&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;General Bibliography&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jean-Jacques Glassner and Benhamin R. Foster (ed.), [_Mesopotamian Chronicles_](https://books.google.com/books?id=5gUNVtrlr28C), Brill: 2005.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dina Katz, [_Gilgamesh and Akka_](https://books.google.com/books?id=bCn5-COYETwC), Brill: 1993.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;JoAnn Scurlock, &quot;[Images of Tammuz: The Intersection of Death, Divinity, and Royal Authority in Ancient Mesopotamia](https://books.google.com/books?id=9UeVAQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA151),&quot; pp. 151–182 in _Experiencing Power, Generating Authority: Cosmos, Politics, and the Ideology of Kingship in Ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia_, ed. by Jane A. Hill et al. University of Pennsylvania Press: 2013.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jeffrey H. Tigay, [_The Evolution of the Gilgamesh Epic_](https://books.google.com/books?id=cxjuHTH6I2sC), University of Pennsylvania Press: 1982." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4830" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1062" RevisionGUID="abe9e421-87ae-4e98-b667-c430533d2808" CreationDate="2015-08-15T02:34:42.700" UserId="398" Text="Well, this assumes that Campbell is accurate! Campbell is playing fast, loose, and vague with the evidence, but that's a different story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ancients as far as I am aware did not recognize Campbell's &quot;monomyth.&quot; They did, however, recognize a few things. First, at least with Mediterranean and Near Eastern cultures, they all engaged in a process of _interpretatio_, through which various heroes and deities were seen as the same. Herakles was Melqart, though the Greeks called both &quot;Herakles&quot;, one &quot;Tyrian&quot; and the other &quot;Greek.&quot; This was very common.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another process common especially during the Hellenistic era was something called &quot;Euhemerism,&quot; named after Euhemerus, a Greek philosopher who thought e.g. the gods were once kings and mighty men who subsequently were worshiped as gods. This presumes an interpretation of similarities, though not of journeys, but of kingship.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is just a quick answer. I'll post some edits with references shortly." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4831" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1062" RevisionGUID="a73395cb-a022-4350-a0f8-062a10cbd3f9" CreationDate="2015-08-15T15:21:22.517" UserId="398" Comment="added 448 characters in body" Text="Well, this assumes that Campbell is accurate! Campbell is playing fast, loose, and vague with the evidence, but that's a different story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ancients as far as I am aware did not recognize Campbell's &quot;monomyth.&quot; They did, however, recognize a few things. First, at least with Mediterranean and Near Eastern cultures, they all engaged in a process of _interpretatio_, through which various heroes and deities were seen as the same. Heracles was Melqart, though the Greeks called both &quot;Heracles&quot;, one &quot;Tyrian&quot; and the other &quot;Greek.&quot; (Herodotus, [2.43–45][1], Cicero, _De Natura Deorum_, [3.43][2])This was very common.[3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another process common especially during the Hellenistic era was something called &quot;Euhemerism,&quot; named after Euhemerus, a Greek philosopher who thought e.g. the gods were once kings and mighty men who subsequently were worshiped as gods. This presumes an interpretation of similarities, though not of journeys, but of kingship.[4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does this answer your question?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hh/hh2040.htm&#xD;&#xA;[2]: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Cicero/de_Natura_Deorum/3A*.html&#xD;&#xA;[3]: https://books.google.com/books?id=Q1xbAgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA138&amp;dq=interpretatio+mediterranean&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0CDcQ6AEwBGoVChMIyMCo5q-rxwIVAVYeCh0d4AA-#v=onepage&amp;q=interpretatio%20mediterranean&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;[4]: https://books.google.com/books?id=OWS8TUTWLvAC&amp;pg=PA123" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4832" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1063" RevisionGUID="8b51715a-b629-4d25-81c6-497513d53770" CreationDate="2015-08-16T02:48:25.693" UserId="501" Text="There appears to be two theories that I can find regarding Wu Song's origin. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first theory ([source][1], [source][2]) seems to suggest that Wu Song's deeds were based on the bare-handed tiger slaying of *Water Margin* author Shi Nai An's friend and cousin Bian Yuan Hen. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second theory ([source][3], [source][2]) seems to suggest (as per Semaphore's comment) that Wu Song was an assassin who killed a local official (nicknamed Cai &quot;Tiger&quot;) and was then tortured to death in prison.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(I am having trouble posting some Chinese characters, will narrow this down before posting translations). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.chinesekungfu.com.cn/html/1312/db1b74ea-6519-4c23-bb84-6c4c98a29b95.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_551640e70100sb13.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.ycwb.com/ePaper/ycwb/html/2013-05/16/content_156826.htm?div=-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4833" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1063" RevisionGUID="ec5a75b8-a319-42fd-a73b-0ba0f6b55ca8" CreationDate="2015-08-16T02:57:31.943" UserId="501" Comment="added 155 characters in body" Text="There appears to be two theories that I can find regarding Wu Song's origin. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first theory ([source][1], [source][2]) seems to suggest that Wu Song's deeds were based on the bare-handed tiger slaying of *Water Margin* author Shi Nai An's friend and cousin Bian Yuan Hen. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second theory ([source][3], [source][2]) seems to suggest (as per Semaphore's comment) that Wu Song was an assassin who killed a local official (nicknamed Cai &quot;Tiger&quot;) and was then tortured to death in prison.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(I am having trouble posting some Chinese characters, will narrow this down before posting translations. The [bug report is here][4])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.chinesekungfu.com.cn/html/1312/db1b74ea-6519-4c23-bb84-6c4c98a29b95.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_551640e70100sb13.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.ycwb.com/ePaper/ycwb/html/2013-05/16/content_156826.htm?div=-1&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/263724/unable-to-post-chinese-character-due-to-malfunctioning-validation-filter" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4834" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1063" RevisionGUID="ad2b3ced-3d68-4aa3-94e5-7b23ff936327" CreationDate="2015-08-16T03:06:55.603" UserId="501" Comment="deleted 14 characters in body" Text="There appears to be two theories that I can find regarding Wu Song's origin. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first theory ([source][1], [source][2]) seems to suggest that Wu Song's deeds were based on the bare-handed tiger slaying of *Water Margin* author Shi Nai An's friend and cousin Bian Yuan Hen. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second theory ([source][3], [source][2]) seems to suggest (as per Semaphore's comment) that Wu Song was an assassin who killed a local official (nicknamed Cai &quot;Tiger&quot;) and was then tortured to death in prison.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(The error encountered when posting Chinese appears to be an anti-spam feature due to spammers abusing Chinese. The [bug report is here][4])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.chinesekungfu.com.cn/html/1312/db1b74ea-6519-4c23-bb84-6c4c98a29b95.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_551640e70100sb13.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.ycwb.com/ePaper/ycwb/html/2013-05/16/content_156826.htm?div=-1&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/263724/unable-to-post-chinese-character-due-to-malfunctioning-validation-filter" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4835" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1063" RevisionGUID="c7d9d332-ce98-40e5-939a-1c8b28b4769c" CreationDate="2015-08-16T03:20:49.267" UserId="501" Comment="deleted 14 characters in body" Text="There appears to be two theories that I can find regarding Wu Song's origin. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first theory ([source][1], [source][2]) seems to suggest that Wu Song's deeds were based on the bare-handed tiger slaying of *Water Margin* author Shi Nai An's friend and cousin Bian Yuan Hen. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;《水浒传》中那位赤手空拳的打虎英雄武松，生活中确有其人。他是《水浒传》作者的好友卞元亨。据《盐城县志》、《古盐卞氏族谱》记述：元末两淮盐运副使卞仕震的儿子卞元亨，家住盐城便仓，年轻时候臂力过人，那时便仓一带常有老虎出没，当地人没有敢单独出行的，有一次卞元亨一人出行，遇到老虎，赤手空拳将老虎打死。&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The hero Wu Song who killed a tiger with his bare hands in *Water Margin* existed in real life as Bian Yuan Hen, the friend of the author of *Water Margin*. According to the *Yan City District Report* and the *Ancient Yan City Bian Genealogy Chart*, in the waning years of the Yuan Dynasty, the son of Bian Shi Zheng, Bian Yuan Hen of Yan City Bianchang Region was extremely strong when young. There were tigers in the region which made nobody dare to travel alone. Once, Bian Yuan Hen travelled alone, and killed a tiger with his bare hands during his travels. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second theory ([source][3], [source][2]) seems to suggest (as per Semaphore's comment) that Wu Song was an assassin who killed a local official (nicknamed Cai &quot;Tiger&quot;) and was then tortured to death in prison.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;历史上有这么一个武松，他原是浪迹江湖的卖艺人，曾为杭州知府中的提辖。后来杭州知府是太师蔡京的儿子蔡鋆，虐政殃民，人称蔡鋆为“蔡虎”。武松对这个奸臣恨之入骨，决心为民除害。他身藏利刃，隐匿在蔡府之前，刺杀了蔡鋆，但被官兵捕获，惨死于狱中。&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;There was such a Wu Song in recorded history. He was originally a roaming bard, who once worked for the Hangzhou magistrate office. The Hangzhou magistrate was replaced with Cai Yun, the son of the Prime Minister Cai Jing. He was a tyrant who abused his people, and was given the nickname Cai &quot;Tiger&quot;. Wu Song hated this evil official, and decided to assassinate him. He carried a blade and hid at the door of the Cai residence, successfully assassinating Cai Yun. However, he was captured by soldiers and died in prison. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A combination of both theories, either or neither could be correct. I was unable to find more definitive primary sources, but again Chinese academic sources on ancient literature is much more difficult to find online than English literature academic sources, even when searching in Chinese. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.chinesekungfu.com.cn/html/1312/db1b74ea-6519-4c23-bb84-6c4c98a29b95.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_551640e70100sb13.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.ycwb.com/ePaper/ycwb/html/2013-05/16/content_156826.htm?div=-1&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/263724/unable-to-post-chinese-character-due-to-malfunctioning-validation-filter" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4838" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="1056" RevisionGUID="c627940d-55c2-4efc-a783-2dc0c3f26c7a" CreationDate="2015-08-16T12:36:13.407" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="17" />
  <row Id="4839" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1064" RevisionGUID="7845c7b0-1643-4ac8-88d4-f6d009201517" CreationDate="2015-08-18T02:37:49.697" UserId="467" Text="I understand the question to be asking what is the author’s intent in having Gilgamesh describe Ishtar’s prior lovers in the way he does, and what, as a literary matter, did the author want to convey through that scene.  I agree with Jeffrey Tigay (p. 42) that there was a single creative mind behind the Old Babylonian, Akkadian text, who deserves to be viewed as an author, not simply as a complier or editor of earlier textual sources and myths. From this perspective, looking at the background of other myths is necessary and helpful, but we know that creative authors do change earlier material around for their own purposes, so in the end we must figure out the authorial intent. Since the earlier answer has already covered the Sumerian general background well, I’ll not dwell on that myself but focus on authorial intent. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Having said that, however, I should mention that the Sumerian myth *Gilgamesh and the Bull of Heaven* (see on [ETCSL][1]) is fairly relevant here. In that story Inanna is upset at Gilgamesh because he seems to want to usurp her ceremonial functions at the Eanna temple (and also spend too much time hunting in the wilds), and so she sends the Bull of Heaven after him, which he and Enkidu kill as in the Gilgamesh epic. Unlike in the Gilgamesh epic, here there is nothing about Gilgamesh rejecting the goddess as a lover (it appears at the beginning of the myth that they already have been lovers), but like in the Gilgamesh epic this myth does show Gilgamesh as having an overweening pride and disrespect for the goddess, which is what gets him into trouble, so this hubris motif is consistent as between the two stories. I don’t think that the Sumerian background generally portrays Inanna (later Ishtar) and Gilgamesh as eternal enemies, which would be unimaginable for this king of Uruk where Inanna had her Eanna temple as tutelary deity of the city he ruled (meaning that as king he may have annually undertaken a sacred marriage ritual with her). In another Sumerian myth known as The Huluppu Tree, it is Gilgamesh who is Inanna’s hero and benefactor. There he chased a serpent, the Anzu-bird, and Lilith away from Inanna’s sacred tree in her garden after her own brother Utu had ignored her entreaties and refused to do so. Gilgamesh came to her rescue, and then fashioned parts of the tree into gifts for her. It is possible that in the aftermath they became lovers. Thus, I think the cause of their spat in the Gilgamesh epic is particular to this story, which gets us back to what its author was up to.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a literary standpoint, I think Gilgamesh’s encounter with Ishtar in the epic should be considered against Enkidu’s earlier sexual encounter with the cult courtesan Shamhat, from whom he gains wisdom and becomes civilized. Gilgamesh, on the other hand, already has this knowledge and a high degree of wisdom when he confronts Ishtar. But here he is too smart and knowledgeable for his own good. So when Ishtar makes her advances, he calls up the litany of her failed relationships with other lovers and says he wants no part of that. But he goes on and on about it in a prideful way and is really insulting to Ishtar, something that a human (or demigod like Gilgamesh) should never do to. This is a display of hubris, which explains the long litany. If he is to refuse, he should at least do so politely and diplomatically, but he did not apply his wisdom here. Further, humans must stay in their proper place in relation to deities and not rise about their station. Thus, Gilgamesh probably should not have refused at all, and acted according to his station in life. Recall that, as king of Uruk, Gilgamesh probably would have been obligated to undertake annually a sacred marriage ceremony with her, in which case his rejection of her would be an improper dereliction of duty in violation of the established cosmic order.  His and Enkidu’s pride brings on the onslaught of the Bull of Heaven, where they display even more hubris, Enkidu by throwing the haunch of the dismembered Bull at Ishtar. This sets up the real punishment. Gilgamesh instead of Enkidu could have perished in response to vanquishing the Bull, but the gods decide that Enkidu should die. Nevertheless, Gilgamesh suffers greatly by reason of Enkidu’s death, which is necessary for the plot because this is what gets him thinking about immortality and sets him off on his quest for that.  In that quest he displays more pride and ambition, but in the end he has to be reconciled with human life and his fate as it is. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the other hand, Ishtar too is being portrayed negatively here. From her own behavior (e.g., she does the proposing) and what Gilgamesh describes about her in the litany, it becomes clear that she is acting badly, in fact much like a man, so it is understandable why Gilgamesh rejects her. Contrast this with the story’s favorable portrayals of Shamhat and Siduri, who reflect more traditional feminine profiles favored by the author.  Thus, both Ishtar and Gilgamesh are aspiring to go beyond their proper stations, as a result of which each of their expected roles has become inverted to some extent: Gilgamesh attempting to become divine rather than living as a man, and the goddess acting like a man rather than serving in a more conventional female role. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sources:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dalley, Stephanie. *Myths from Mesopotamia.* Oxford: Oxford University Press. 1989. Contains text of Gilgamesh epic with annotations.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Foster, Benjamin, trans. and ed. *The Epic of Gilgamesh.* New York: Norton. 2001. Norton Critical edition with critical essays. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Leick, Gwendolyn. *A Dictionary of Ancient Near Eastern Mythology.* London: Routledge, 1991.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thorkild Jacobsen. *The Treasures of Darkness.* New Haven: Yale University Press. 1976.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tigay, Jeffrey. *The Evolution of the Gilgamesh Epic.* Wauconda, Illinois: Bolchazy-Carducci Publishers. 2002.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wolkstein, Diane, and Samuel Noah Kramer. *Inanna: Queen of Heaven and Earth - Her Stories and Hymns from Sumer.* New York: Harper &amp; Row. 1983. Contains *The Huluppu Tree* myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.1.8.1.2#" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4840" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1064" RevisionGUID="ac7e303d-3197-4238-97c4-85464fbac881" CreationDate="2015-08-18T03:48:50.253" UserId="467" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="I understand the question to be asking what is the author’s intent in having Gilgamesh describe Ishtar’s prior lovers in the way he does, and what, as a literary matter, did the author want to convey through that scene.  I agree with Jeffrey Tigay (p. 42) that there was a single creative mind behind the Old Babylonian, Akkadian text, who deserves to be viewed as an author, not simply as a complier or editor of earlier textual sources and myths. From this perspective, looking at the background of other myths is necessary and helpful, but we know that creative authors do change earlier material around for their own purposes, so in the end we must figure out the authorial intent. Since the earlier answer has already covered the Sumerian general background well, I’ll not dwell on that myself but focus on authorial intent. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Having said that, however, I should mention that the Sumerian myth *Gilgamesh and the Bull of Heaven* (see on [ETCSL][1]) is fairly relevant here. In that story Inanna is upset at Gilgamesh because he seems to want to usurp her ceremonial functions at the Eanna temple (and also spend too much time hunting in the wilds), and so she sends the Bull of Heaven after him, which he and Enkidu kill as in the Gilgamesh epic. Unlike in the Gilgamesh epic, here there is nothing about Gilgamesh rejecting the goddess as a lover (it appears at the beginning of the myth that they already have been lovers), but like in the Gilgamesh epic this myth does show Gilgamesh as having an overweening pride and disrespect for the goddess, which is what gets him into trouble, so this hubris motif is consistent as between the two stories. I don’t think that the Sumerian background generally portrays Inanna (later Ishtar) and Gilgamesh as eternal enemies, which would be unimaginable for this king of Uruk where Inanna had her Eanna temple as tutelary deity of the city he ruled (meaning that as king he may have annually undertaken a sacred marriage ritual with her). In another Sumerian myth known as The Huluppu Tree, it is Gilgamesh who is Inanna’s hero and benefactor. There he chased a serpent, the Anzu-bird, and Lilith away from Inanna’s sacred tree in her garden after her own brother Utu had ignored her entreaties and refused to do so. Gilgamesh came to her rescue, and then fashioned parts of the tree into gifts for her. It is possible that in the aftermath they became lovers. Thus, I think the cause of their spat in the Gilgamesh epic is particular to this story, which gets us back to what its author was up to.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a literary standpoint, I think Gilgamesh’s encounter with Ishtar in the epic should be considered against Enkidu’s earlier sexual encounter with the cult courtesan Shamhat, from whom he gains wisdom and becomes civilized. Gilgamesh, on the other hand, already has this knowledge and a high degree of wisdom when he confronts Ishtar. But here he is too smart and knowledgeable for his own good. So when Ishtar makes her advances, he calls up the litany of her failed relationships with other lovers and says he wants no part of that. But he goes on and on about it in a prideful way and is really insulting to Ishtar, something that a human (or demigod like Gilgamesh) should never do to. This is a display of hubris, which explains the long litany. If he is to refuse, he should at least do so politely and diplomatically, but he did not apply his wisdom here. Further, humans must stay in their proper place in relation to deities and not rise about their station. Thus, Gilgamesh probably should not have refused at all, and acted according to his station in life. Recall that, as king of Uruk, Gilgamesh probably would have been obligated to undertake annually a sacred marriage ceremony with her, in which case his rejection of her would be an improper dereliction of duty in violation of the established cosmic order.  His and Enkidu’s pride brings on the onslaught of the Bull of Heaven, where they display even more hubris, Enkidu by throwing the haunch of the dismembered Bull at Ishtar. This sets up the real punishment. Gilgamesh instead of Enkidu could have perished in response to vanquishing the Bull, but the gods decide that Enkidu should die. Nevertheless, Gilgamesh suffers greatly by reason of Enkidu’s death, which is necessary for the plot because this is what gets him thinking about immortality and sets him off on his quest for that.  In that quest he displays more pride and ambition, but in the end he has to be reconciled with human life and his fate as it is. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the other hand, Ishtar too is being portrayed negatively here. From her own behavior (e.g., she does the proposing) and what Gilgamesh describes about her in the litany, it becomes clear that she is acting badly, in fact much like a man, so it is understandable why Gilgamesh rejects her. Contrast this with the story’s favorable portrayals of Shamhat and Siduri, who reflect more traditional feminine profiles favored by the author.  Thus, both Ishtar and Gilgamesh are aspiring to go beyond their proper stations, as a result of which each of their expected roles has become inverted to some extent: Gilgamesh attempting to become divine rather than living as a man, and the goddess acting like a man rather than serving in a more conventional female role. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sources:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dalley, Stephanie. *Myths from Mesopotamia.* Oxford: Oxford University Press. 1989. Contains text of Gilgamesh epic with annotations.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Foster, Benjamin, trans. and ed. *The Epic of Gilgamesh.* New York: Norton. 2001. Norton Critical edition with critical essays. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jacobsen, Thorkild. *The Treasures of Darkness.* New Haven: Yale University Press. 1976.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Leick, Gwendolyn. *A Dictionary of Ancient Near Eastern Mythology.* London: Routledge, 1991.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tigay, Jeffrey. *The Evolution of the Gilgamesh Epic.* Wauconda, Illinois: Bolchazy-Carducci Publishers. 2002.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wolkstein, Diane, and Samuel Noah Kramer. *Inanna: Queen of Heaven and Earth - Her Stories and Hymns from Sumer.* New York: Harper &amp; Row. 1983. Contains *The Huluppu Tree* myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.1.8.1.2#" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4841" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1064" RevisionGUID="03ae117a-0680-4ac4-93a6-2827b3eccd4a" CreationDate="2015-08-18T14:51:24.430" UserId="467" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="I understand the question to be asking what is the author’s intent in having Gilgamesh describe Ishtar’s prior lovers in the way he does, and what, as a literary matter, did the author want to convey through that scene.  I agree with Jeffrey Tigay (p. 42) that there was a single creative mind behind the Old Babylonian, Akkadian text, who deserves to be viewed as an author, not simply as a complier or editor of earlier textual sources and myths. From this perspective, looking at the background of other myths is necessary and helpful, but we know that creative authors do change earlier material around for their own purposes, so in the end we must figure out the authorial intent. Since the earlier answer has already covered the Sumerian general background well, I’ll not dwell on that myself but focus on authorial intent. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Having said that, however, I should mention that the Sumerian myth *Gilgamesh and the Bull of Heaven* (see on [ETCSL][1]) is fairly relevant here. In that story Inanna is upset at Gilgamesh because he seems to want to usurp her ceremonial functions at the Eanna temple (and also spend too much time hunting in the wilds), and so she sends the Bull of Heaven after him, which he and Enkidu kill as in the Gilgamesh epic. Unlike in the Gilgamesh epic, here there is nothing about Gilgamesh rejecting the goddess as a lover (it appears at the beginning of the myth that they already have been lovers), but like in the Gilgamesh epic this myth does show Gilgamesh as having an overweening pride and disrespect for the goddess, which is what gets him into trouble, so this hubris motif is consistent as between the two stories. I don’t think that the Sumerian background generally portrays Inanna (later Ishtar) and Gilgamesh as eternal enemies, which would be unimaginable for this king of Uruk where Inanna had her Eanna temple as tutelary deity of the city he ruled (meaning that as king he may have annually undertaken a sacred marriage ritual with her). In another Sumerian myth known as *The Huluppu Tree,* it is Gilgamesh who is Inanna’s hero and benefactor. There he chased a serpent, the Anzu-bird, and Lilith away from Inanna’s sacred tree in her garden after her own brother Utu had ignored her entreaties and refused to do so. Gilgamesh came to her rescue, and then fashioned parts of the tree into gifts for her. It is possible that in the aftermath they became lovers. Thus, I think the cause of their spat in the Gilgamesh epic is particular to this story, which gets us back to what its author was up to.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a literary standpoint, I think Gilgamesh’s encounter with Ishtar in the epic should be considered against Enkidu’s earlier sexual encounter with the cult courtesan Shamhat, from whom he gains wisdom and becomes civilized. Gilgamesh, on the other hand, already has this knowledge and a high degree of wisdom when he confronts Ishtar. But here he is too smart and knowledgeable for his own good. So when Ishtar makes her advances, he calls up the litany of her failed relationships with other lovers and says he wants no part of that. But he goes on and on about it in a prideful way and is really insulting to Ishtar, something that a human (or demigod like Gilgamesh) should never do to. This is a display of hubris, which explains the long litany. If he is to refuse, he should at least do so politely and diplomatically, but he did not apply his wisdom here. Further, humans must stay in their proper place in relation to deities and not rise about their station. Thus, Gilgamesh probably should not have refused at all, and acted according to his station in life. Recall that, as king of Uruk, Gilgamesh probably would have been obligated to undertake annually a sacred marriage ceremony with her, in which case his rejection of her would be an improper dereliction of duty in violation of the established cosmic order.  His and Enkidu’s pride brings on the onslaught of the Bull of Heaven, where they display even more hubris, Enkidu by throwing the haunch of the dismembered Bull at Ishtar. This sets up the real punishment. Gilgamesh instead of Enkidu could have perished in response to vanquishing the Bull, but the gods decide that Enkidu should die. Nevertheless, Gilgamesh suffers greatly by reason of Enkidu’s death, which is necessary for the plot because this is what gets him thinking about immortality and sets him off on his quest for that.  In that quest he displays more pride and ambition, but in the end he has to be reconciled with human life and his fate as it is. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the other hand, Ishtar too is being portrayed negatively here. From her own behavior (e.g., she does the proposing) and what Gilgamesh describes about her in the litany, it becomes clear that she is acting badly, in fact much like a man, so it is understandable why Gilgamesh rejects her. Contrast this with the story’s favorable portrayals of Shamhat and Siduri, who reflect more traditional feminine profiles favored by the author.  Thus, both Ishtar and Gilgamesh are aspiring to go beyond their proper stations, as a result of which each of their expected roles has become inverted to some extent: Gilgamesh attempting to become divine rather than living as a man, and the goddess acting like a man rather than serving in a more conventional female role. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sources:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dalley, Stephanie. *Myths from Mesopotamia.* Oxford: Oxford University Press. 1989. Contains text of Gilgamesh epic with annotations.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Foster, Benjamin, trans. and ed. *The Epic of Gilgamesh.* New York: Norton. 2001. Norton Critical edition with critical essays. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jacobsen, Thorkild. *The Treasures of Darkness.* New Haven: Yale University Press. 1976.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Leick, Gwendolyn. *A Dictionary of Ancient Near Eastern Mythology.* London: Routledge, 1991.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tigay, Jeffrey. *The Evolution of the Gilgamesh Epic.* Wauconda, Illinois: Bolchazy-Carducci Publishers. 2002.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wolkstein, Diane, and Samuel Noah Kramer. *Inanna: Queen of Heaven and Earth - Her Stories and Hymns from Sumer.* New York: Harper &amp; Row. 1983. Contains *The Huluppu Tree* myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.1.8.1.2#" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4842" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1065" RevisionGUID="c06ef122-4c5a-4746-81d7-0bb827a135cb" CreationDate="2015-08-19T16:22:09.457" UserId="663" Text="I've been reading a lot of interpretations of Achilles' decision to return to battle, and many top scholars seem to think that he sacrificed his life in order to achieve some form of eternal glory. But it seems like his own words and actions suggest otherwise. I wrote an [article][1] that into more depth on this question but I'm still confused. Can anyone help clear this up? Am I making this too complicated? Thanks. - Patrick &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.achillesgene.com/blog/2015/8/5/reconsidering-a-heros-motivation" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4843" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1065" RevisionGUID="c06ef122-4c5a-4746-81d7-0bb827a135cb" CreationDate="2015-08-19T16:22:09.457" UserId="663" Text="Was Achilles really motivated by eternal glory?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4844" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1065" RevisionGUID="c06ef122-4c5a-4746-81d7-0bb827a135cb" CreationDate="2015-08-19T16:22:09.457" UserId="663" Text="|iliad|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4845" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1065" RevisionGUID="e3ac34f2-ec17-450b-9c83-969a9b589a8f" CreationDate="2015-08-19T16:38:25.410" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 21 characters in body; edited tags" Text="I've been reading a lot of interpretations of Achilles' decision to return to battle, and many top scholars seem to think that he sacrificed his life in order to achieve some form of eternal glory. But it seems like his own words and actions suggest otherwise. I wrote an [article][1] that into more depth on this question but I'm still confused. Can anyone help clear this up? Am I making this too complicated?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.achillesgene.com/blog/2015/8/5/reconsidering-a-heros-motivation" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4846" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1065" RevisionGUID="e3ac34f2-ec17-450b-9c83-969a9b589a8f" CreationDate="2015-08-19T16:38:25.410" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 21 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|greek|iliad|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4847" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1065" RevisionGUID="62cf7b97-dfc3-46b3-9674-e1c3f308fb65" CreationDate="2015-08-19T16:47:57.700" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 967 characters in body" Text="I've been reading a lot of interpretations of Achilles' decision to return to battle, and many top scholars seem to think that he sacrificed his life in order to achieve some form of eternal glory. For example, both Gregory Nagy and Bernard Knox (Harvard Center for Hellenic Studies) saw Achilles' decision to return to battle and sacrifice his life as the ultimate choice of eternal glory/fame (see [my article on the subject][1] for more information).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But it seems like his own words and actions suggest otherwise. For example, When Achilles leaves the battlefield after his dispute with Agamemnon, the Trojans gain the upper hand on the Greeks. Desperate to convince their best warrior to return, Agamemnon sends an envoy of Achilles' closest friends to his tent to persuade him to reconsider his decision. During this scene, Achilles calmly informs his friends that he is no longer interested in giving up his life for the sake of heroic ideals. His exact words are below:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The same honor waits for the coward and the brave. They both go down to Death, the fighter who shirks, the one who works to exhaustion (IX 386-388).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I wrote an [article][1] that into more depth on this question but I'm still confused. The most straight-forward explanation seems to be that Achilles returns to battle solely out of rage and the desire for revenge. Am I missing something? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.achillesgene.com/blog/2015/8/5/reconsidering-a-heros-motivation" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4848" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1066" RevisionGUID="ec4e94a5-6485-4f61-9b11-522de863952d" CreationDate="2015-08-19T22:21:58.210" UserId="188" Text="Is there a preponderance of watery tarts in mythology?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or phrased in a less... something... manner,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Are there more mythological maidens that are sexually inclined and embody, or are strongly connected to, water than any other kind of mythological maiden?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, there's the Russian Russalka, the German Rhine Maidens, the Lady of the Lake in tales that don't involve Excalibur, the Greek Naiads and Sirens, Scottish, Irish, and Faroese Selkies, and so on and so on; even the American First Nations have their water maidens that tempted young warriors to a soggy grave." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4849" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1066" RevisionGUID="ec4e94a5-6485-4f61-9b11-522de863952d" CreationDate="2015-08-19T22:21:58.210" UserId="188" Text="Is there a preponderance of watery tarts in mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4850" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1066" RevisionGUID="ec4e94a5-6485-4f61-9b11-522de863952d" CreationDate="2015-08-19T22:21:58.210" UserId="188" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4851" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1030" RevisionGUID="0337d1d6-9103-4cbb-a3a4-05a099fa52dc" CreationDate="2015-08-19T22:59:46.357" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 243 characters in body" Text="It turns out that characters with multiple pupils in their eyes are somewhat common in Irish literature (such characters sometimes appear in non-Irish works as well). However, the meaning of this varies between characters. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In some instances, having multiple pupils is a sign that the character has an &quot;evil eye.&quot; For example, in the Togail Bruidne Da Derga (The Destruction of Da Derga's Hostel), a character with multiple pupils causes a juggler to drop his objects:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A man ungentle, huge, fearful, uncouth was Ingcél. A single eye in his head, as broad as an oxhide, as black as a chafer, with three pupils therein.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When he was swiftest, I beheld him at the feat, and as I looked, they uttered a cry about him and they were all on the house-floor. Then the Prince who is in the house said to the juggler: ‘We have come together since thou wast a little boy, and till to-night thy juggling never failed thee.’’&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ‘Alas, alas, fair master Conaire, good cause have I. A keen, angry eye looked at me: a man with the third of a pupil which sees the going of the nine bands. Not much to him is that keen, wrathful sight! Battles are fought with it,’ saith he. ‘It should be known till doomsday that there is evil in front of the Hostel.’&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Online translation of The Destruction of Da Derga's Hostel][1])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, in works like the Táin Bó Cúalnge, having multiple pupils can be a sign of beauty or supernatural sight (or both). To quote from this fantastic paper titled ['The Evil Eye' in early Irish literature and law][2] (which is essentially the source for this entire answer):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The version that Ingcél has seven pupils in his eye has a parallel&#xD;&#xA;in descriptions of Cormac mac Airt and Cú Chulainn: they are&#xD;&#xA;said to have seven pupils in each eye. In both cases, this is explictly&#xD;&#xA;qualified as a sign of beauty. In Táin Bó Cúailnge Recension I, two of&#xD;&#xA;Cú Chulainn’s pupils are described as squinting, but the text supplies the&#xD;&#xA;comment that this was more an adornment than a disfigurement. The&#xD;&#xA;tradition of three pupils in Ingcél’s eye could be compared with another&#xD;&#xA;instance in Táin Bó Cúailnge Recension I: after the description of the&#xD;&#xA;poetess and prophetess Fedelm as a beautiful woman, it is said that she&#xD;&#xA;carries a weaver’s beam and has three pupils in each eye. There is no&#xD;&#xA;explanation offered of this characteristic: it could be a sign of beauty&#xD;&#xA;and it could be a sign of her supernatural sight. The latter is more&#xD;&#xA;probable, because the characteristic is separated from the description of&#xD;&#xA;her looks by the mention of the weaver’s beam. The weaver’s beam has&#xD;&#xA;been interpreted as a supernatural tool for prophesy. The triple pupils&#xD;&#xA;could, therefore, very well be a symbol of her clairvoyance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Borsje, Jacqueline; Kelly, Fergus: ['The evil eye' in early Irish literature and law.][2])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In summery, depending on the character and story, having multiple pupils is associated with (rarely) beauty, sharp site (i.e. clairvoyance), or destruction (i.e. &quot;the evil eye&quot;). However, I think you can connect those &quot;symptoms&quot; back to the evil eye; for example, being able to see the future/see well is one of the characteristics of having the evil eye, although in the Táin it's portrayed more positively. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you're interested in learning more, I highly recommend that you take a look at [the paper I cited about the evil eye][2]: it's very interesting and connects the phenomenon to Irish law and a variety of non-Irish texts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T301017A.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://bill.celt.dias.ie/vol4/displayObject.php?TreeID=1001" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4853" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1068" RevisionGUID="20edd8e1-f04b-42af-86fe-51f1c85244b1" CreationDate="2015-08-20T04:10:34.883" UserId="467" Text="Frazer famously made popular the idea of &quot;dying and rising&quot; gods associated with the seasons and vegetation. In the ancient Near East and Mediterranean, common examples have included Dummuzi/Tammuz, Osiris, Attis, and Baal. The notion of a fairly uniform &quot;dying and rising god&quot; archetype popularized by scholars of comparative religion and mythology has come under fire in recent decades, mainly (in my experience) from regional specialists who stress the uniqueness of such gods in their own geographical regions (i.e., their own academic turf), as well as conservative biblical commentators who don't like this archetype being applied to the Bible (e.g., Jesus). I would be interest to hear your own assessments regarding the continuing viability (or not) of the notion of &quot;dying and rising&quot; gods. Is it still valid? Useful? I have my own ideas on this, but would appreciate hearing the views of others in our community here." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4854" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1068" RevisionGUID="20edd8e1-f04b-42af-86fe-51f1c85244b1" CreationDate="2015-08-20T04:10:34.883" UserId="467" Text="Are &quot;Dying and Rising Gods&quot; Dead?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4855" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1068" RevisionGUID="20edd8e1-f04b-42af-86fe-51f1c85244b1" CreationDate="2015-08-20T04:10:34.883" UserId="467" Text="|osiris|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4856" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1066" RevisionGUID="1f3a207b-b9cd-4f51-ae69-0126b2574d27" CreationDate="2015-08-20T04:34:15.563" UserId="42" Comment="Adding a link to the source of the &quot;watery tart&quot; phrase.  Perhaps making the Monty Python reeference clear would resolve the objection somewhat." Text="Is there a preponderance of [watery tarts](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOOTKA0aGI0&amp;feature=youtu.be&amp;t=2m40s) in mythology?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or phrased in a less... something... manner,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Are there more mythological maidens that are sexually inclined and embody, or are strongly connected to, water than any other kind of mythological maiden?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, there's the Russian Russalka, the German Rhine Maidens, the Lady of the Lake in tales that don't involve Excalibur, the Greek Naiads and Sirens, Scottish, Irish, and Faroese Selkies, and so on and so on; even the American First Nations have their water maidens that tempted young warriors to a soggy grave." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4857" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1068" RevisionGUID="334b296b-7603-43a9-9538-e7731058b53e" CreationDate="2015-08-20T05:25:14.233" UserId="467" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body" Text="Frazer famously made popular the idea of &quot;dying and rising&quot; gods associated with the seasons and vegetation. In the ancient Near East and Mediterranean, common examples have included Dummuzi/Tammuz, Osiris, Attis, and Baal. The notion of a fairly uniform &quot;dying and rising god&quot; archetype popularized by scholars of comparative religion and mythology has come under fire in recent decades, mainly (in my experience) from regional specialists who stress the uniqueness of such gods in their own geographical regions (i.e., their own academic turf), as well as conservative biblical commentators who don't like this archetype being applied to the Bible (e.g., Jesus). I'm interested in hearing your own assessments regarding the continuing viability (or not) of the notion of &quot;dying and rising&quot; gods. Is it still valid? Useful? I have my own ideas on this, but would appreciate hearing the views of others in our community here." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4860" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1066" RevisionGUID="8709a1d8-44bf-48d9-bc2e-b827c7ff6c70" CreationDate="2015-08-20T16:19:46.160" UserId="108" Comment="Better to just make the question more clear than just being straightforward. It's also a bit unsightly even for those of us who understood the reference." Text="Is there a preponderance of seductive  water nymphs in mythology? That is, among the more sexually inclined maidens in mythology, are they more likely to embody or be connected to water than other elements?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, there's the Russian Russalka, the German Rhine Maidens, the Lady of the Lake in tales that don't involve Excalibur, the Greek Naiads and Sirens, Scottish, Irish, and Faroese Selkies, and so on and so on; even the American First Nations have their water maidens that tempted young warriors to a soggy grave." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4861" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1066" RevisionGUID="8709a1d8-44bf-48d9-bc2e-b827c7ff6c70" CreationDate="2015-08-20T16:19:46.160" UserId="108" Comment="Better to just make the question more clear than just being straightforward. It's also a bit unsightly even for those of us who understood the reference." Text="Is there a preponderance of seductive water nymphs in mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4862" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1066" RevisionGUID="8709a1d8-44bf-48d9-bc2e-b827c7ff6c70" CreationDate="2015-08-20T16:19:46.160" UserId="108" Comment="Better to just make the question more clear than just being straightforward. It's also a bit unsightly even for those of us who understood the reference." Text="|comparative|water|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4863" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1068" RevisionGUID="c36ce069-4e22-408f-8395-be7f4b0ff205" CreationDate="2015-08-20T17:43:35.177" UserId="467" Comment="deleted 32 characters in body" Text="Frazer famously made popular the idea of &quot;dying and rising&quot; gods associated with the seasons and vegetation. In the ancient Near East and Mediterranean, common examples have included Dummuzi/Tammuz, Osiris, Attis, and Baal. The notion of a fairly uniform &quot;dying and rising god&quot; archetype popularized by scholars of comparative religion and mythology has come under fire in recent decades, mainly (in my experience) from regional specialists who stress the uniqueness of such gods in their own geographical regions, as well as conservative biblical commentators who don't like this archetype being applied to the Bible (e.g., Jesus). I'm interested in hearing your own assessments regarding the continuing viability (or not) of the notion of &quot;dying and rising&quot; gods. Is it still valid? Useful? I have my own ideas on this, but would appreciate hearing the views of others in our community here." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4867" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="479" RevisionGUID="3bbd5a9f-5a87-48a4-b13a-445133fc3768" CreationDate="2015-08-20T21:23:43.080" UserId="183" Comment="18" />
  <row Id="4868" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1070" RevisionGUID="69368695-6e4f-4322-b3f3-24f7d0ee08d5" CreationDate="2015-08-20T22:15:05.147" UserId="183" Text="In [the third branch of the Mabinogion](http://www.mabinogi.net/manawydan.htm), Pryderi tells Manawydan&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Your cousin is king of Island of the Mighty and although he may do you wrong' he continued 'you have never been a claimant for land or territory. You are the third Humbled Chieftain.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going through the footnotes, I read that the other two Humbled Chieftains were Llwarch Hen and Gwgon Gwron. It would seem, from Pryderi's remark, that there is some connection between the three, yet the other two do not (if I recall correctly) appear in the Mabinogion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a connection between the Three Humbled Chieftains?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4869" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1070" RevisionGUID="69368695-6e4f-4322-b3f3-24f7d0ee08d5" CreationDate="2015-08-20T22:15:05.147" UserId="183" Text="Is there any connection between the Three Humbled Chieftains?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4870" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1070" RevisionGUID="69368695-6e4f-4322-b3f3-24f7d0ee08d5" CreationDate="2015-08-20T22:15:05.147" UserId="183" Text="|welsh|mabinogion|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4871" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1068" RevisionGUID="e45a600f-116e-4dc6-9214-1a7efcec7bae" CreationDate="2015-08-20T22:15:58.503" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="deleted 94 characters in body" Text="Frazer famously made popular the idea of &quot;dying and rising&quot; gods associated with the seasons and vegetation. In the ancient Near East and Mediterranean, common examples have included Dummuzi/Tammuz, Osiris, Attis, and Baal. The notion of a fairly uniform &quot;dying and rising god&quot; archetype popularized by scholars of comparative religion and mythology has come under fire in recent decades, mainly (in my experience) from regional specialists who stress the uniqueness of such gods in their own geographical regions, as well as conservative biblical commentators who don't like this archetype being applied to the Bible (e.g., Jesus). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is the notion of &quot;dying and rising&quot; gods still valid? Useful? I have my own ideas on this, but would appreciate hearing the views of others in our community here." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4872" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1071" RevisionGUID="91f51df7-0c41-42d5-b16a-1e3908dbfdee" CreationDate="2015-08-20T23:54:36.627" UserId="565" Text="Is it possible, rather, to view Achilles as a more dynamic, developing, three-dimensional character?  That is, you describe an either/or motivational paradigm, but mightn't it better be described as both/and?  Achilles starts from a place of anger (as does Homer:  *menin* is given pride of place, after all), but in the end, especially after meeting Priam, becomes a many-dimensional character.  He is reminded from the beginning of the epic to its close of the finitude of all things but *kleos* which is *aphthiton*." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4873" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1041" RevisionGUID="571b2b44-db30-41d0-9204-d3ee6d353093" CreationDate="2015-08-21T00:05:27.063" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added source" Text="At *Odyssey* 4.563ff, the Elysian Plain is said to be the destination of Menelaus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The etymology of Elusios has been much debated.  Some posit a pre-Greek (&quot;Pelasgian&quot;) origin&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;.  Another suggestion is that it is derived from the Greek word meaning 'struck by lightning' (enelusios) on the view that death by lightning signified immediate deification.  All of this but conjecture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; See Johann Baptist Hofmann, Etymologisches Wörterbuch des Griechischen (1950), p. 107." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4874" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1070" RevisionGUID="9029b21d-2e55-4bf1-99f0-460d85ff2678" CreationDate="2015-08-21T02:57:02.553" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|welsh|mabinogion|welsh-triads|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4876" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1072" RevisionGUID="5b14bfe6-65ea-4bba-a59d-c64639d2f5bc" CreationDate="2015-08-21T03:27:01.343" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="As I noted in my comment, that quote refers to a welsh triad, sometimes translated as &quot;Three Prostrate (Humble) Chieftains of the Island of Britain&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; Llywarch the Old son of Elidir Llydanwyn,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; and Manawydan son of Llyr Half-Speech,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; and Gwgon Gwron son of Peredur son of Eliffer of the Great Retinue.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; (And this is why those were called the 'Prostate Chieftains': because they would not seek a dominion, and nobody could deny it to them.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Bromwich, Rachel, [Trioedd Ynys Prydein: The Triads of the Island of Britain][1].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm not sure what you mean by &quot;connection.&quot; I don't think the three characters ever met, although I could be wrong. The Mabinogion is filled with references to various triads, so for the welsh audience it would have been interpreted as a reference to another piece of literature. The triads themselves are essentially catalogues of welsh stories (grouped in threes).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you're interested in learning more, the wikipedia pages for [Llywarch][2], [Peradur][3] (father of Gwgon Gwron) and [Manawydan][4] would be good places to start. Llywarch in particular is mentioned in several welsh poems (other than the triads).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=V2muBwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT163&amp;lpg=PT163&amp;dq=Llwarch+Hen+Gwgon+Gwron+triad&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=hov1BozXtf&amp;sig=O24KhuNpfHInkHWjtqesZ81vD4o&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0CBoQ6AEwAmoVChMI7ZCcrZa5xwIViVoeCh10ywrl#v=onepage&amp;q=Llwarch%20Hen%20Gwgon%20Gwron%20triad&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llywarch_Hen&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peredur#cite_ref-8&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manawydan#Other_appearances" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4877" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1072" RevisionGUID="d526170b-39d8-4332-a164-ae9a660774a4" CreationDate="2015-08-21T03:35:35.987" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 144 characters in body" Text="As I noted in my comment, that quote refers to a welsh triad, sometimes translated as &quot;Three Prostrate (Humble) Chieftains of the Island of Britain&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; Llywarch the Old son of Elidir Llydanwyn,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; and Manawydan son of Llyr Half-Speech,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; and Gwgon Gwron son of Peredur son of Eliffer of the Great Retinue.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; (And this is why those were called the 'Prostate Chieftains': because they would not seek a dominion, and nobody could deny it to them.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Bromwich, Rachel, [Trioedd Ynys Prydein: The Triads of the Island of Britain][1].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm not sure what you mean by &quot;connection.&quot; I don't think the three characters ever met, although I could be wrong. The Mabinogion is filled with references to various triads, so for the welsh audience it would have been interpreted as a reference to another piece of literature. The triads themselves are essentially catalogues of welsh stories (grouped in threes).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I suppose I could elaborate on what was meant by &quot;Humble Chieftains&quot;: it basically meant that they had land taken from them ([Bromwich][1]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you're interested in learning more, the wikipedia pages for [Llywarch][2], [Peradur][3] (father of Gwgon Gwron) and [Manawydan][4] would be good places to start. Llywarch in particular is mentioned in several welsh poems (other than the triads).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=V2muBwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT163&amp;lpg=PT163&amp;dq=Llwarch+Hen+Gwgon+Gwron+triad&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=hov1BozXtf&amp;sig=O24KhuNpfHInkHWjtqesZ81vD4o&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0CBoQ6AEwAmoVChMI7ZCcrZa5xwIViVoeCh10ywrl#v=onepage&amp;q=Llwarch%20Hen%20Gwgon%20Gwron%20triad&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llywarch_Hen&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peredur#cite_ref-8&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manawydan#Other_appearances" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4882" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="1056" RevisionGUID="fcc99c11-594c-460a-a8b1-4e7c1801247c" CreationDate="2015-08-21T13:55:58.483" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="17" />
  <row Id="4883" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1075" RevisionGUID="d6b1ed0c-bc75-45dc-8d8f-2c8ce8fec35d" CreationDate="2015-08-21T14:23:29.687" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4884" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1076" RevisionGUID="331a088e-48bb-48b3-bc6b-7f3f4db35752" CreationDate="2015-08-21T14:23:29.687" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4885" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1077" RevisionGUID="51c3eea0-03f4-487f-a790-5268f10aa9a4" CreationDate="2015-08-21T14:55:46.820" UserId="671" Text="Is it true that most monsters of his labors are exaggerated like The Hydra Monster that turned out to be warriors with masks of serpents as it is shown in the 2014 movie of Hercules?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4886" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1077" RevisionGUID="51c3eea0-03f4-487f-a790-5268f10aa9a4" CreationDate="2015-08-21T14:55:46.820" UserId="671" Text="Did Hercules completed his labors in the way we heard?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4887" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1077" RevisionGUID="51c3eea0-03f4-487f-a790-5268f10aa9a4" CreationDate="2015-08-21T14:55:46.820" UserId="671" Text="|hercules|hera|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4888" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1075" RevisionGUID="f4b061ac-f1a4-44b7-8a3a-f96740567a01" CreationDate="2015-08-21T15:23:50.660" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 303 characters in body" Text="The triads are a collection of [tag:welsh] text that catalogue welsh literature in groups of threes. The canonical source for questions about the triads is Rachel Bromwich's book [Trioedd Ynys Prydein: The Triads of the Island of Britain][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=V2muBwAAQBAJ&amp;d" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4889" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1075" RevisionGUID="f4b061ac-f1a4-44b7-8a3a-f96740567a01" CreationDate="2015-08-21T15:23:50.660" Comment="Proposed by 62 approved by 183 edit id of 221" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4890" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1076" RevisionGUID="afb6b775-4559-42b0-b942-6d357a94614a" CreationDate="2015-08-21T15:23:54.150" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 94 characters in body" Text="The triads are a collection of welsh text that catalogue welsh literature in groups of threes." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4891" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1076" RevisionGUID="afb6b775-4559-42b0-b942-6d357a94614a" CreationDate="2015-08-21T15:23:54.150" Comment="Proposed by 62 approved by 183 edit id of 222" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4893" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1077" RevisionGUID="6d07e64d-4b01-4565-92ff-2376b0488ba3" CreationDate="2015-08-21T16:14:24.243" UserId="183" Comment="added 54 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Is it true that most monsters of his labors are exaggerated, like the hydra monster that turned out to be warriors with masks of serpents as it is shown in the 2014 movie, [*Hercules*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercules_(2014_film))?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4894" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1077" RevisionGUID="6d07e64d-4b01-4565-92ff-2376b0488ba3" CreationDate="2015-08-21T16:14:24.243" UserId="183" Comment="added 54 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Did Hercules complete his labors in the way described in the movie &quot;Hercules&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4895" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1077" RevisionGUID="6d07e64d-4b01-4565-92ff-2376b0488ba3" CreationDate="2015-08-21T16:14:24.243" UserId="183" Comment="added 54 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|greek|hercules|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4898" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1077" RevisionGUID="43fec697-9c41-43e8-86c4-3824d86d097f" CreationDate="2015-08-21T16:18:51.467" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited title" Text="Did Hercules complete his labors as described in the movie &quot;Hercules&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4899" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1078" RevisionGUID="ad72a802-6ded-47c4-b46f-3b18923f8083" CreationDate="2015-08-21T17:23:40.997" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="No. [*The Library* by Apollodorus][1], our main account of the myth of Hercules, does not mention anything about the Hydra (or any of the other labours) being &quot;imitated&quot; or &quot;faked&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  As a second labour he ordered him to kill the Lernaean hydra. That creature, bred in the swamp of Lerna, used to go forth into the plain and ravage both the cattle and the country. Now the hydra had a huge body, with nine heads, eight mortal, but the middle one immortal. So mounting a chariot driven by Iolaus, he came to Lerna, and having halted his horses, he discovered the hydra on a hill beside the springs of the Amymone, where was its den. By pelting it with fiery shafts he forced it to come out, and in the act of doing so he seized and held it fast. But the hydra wound itself about one of his feet and clung to him. Nor could he effect anything by smashing its heads with his club, for as fast as one head was smashed there grew up two. A huge crab also came to the help of the hydra by biting his foot. So he killed it, and in his turn called for help on Iolaus who, by setting fire to a piece of the neighboring wood and burning the roots of the heads with the brands, prevented them from sprouting. Having thus got the better of the sprouting heads, he chopped off the immortal head, and buried it, and put a heavy rock on it, beside the road that leads through Lerna to Elaeus. But the body of the hydra he slit up and dipped his arrows in the gall. However, Eurystheus said that this labour should not be reckoned among the ten because he had not got the better of the hydra by himself, but with the help of Iolaus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Apollodorus, *The Library*][1])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Disney movie Hercules [isn't an accurate representation of the original Greek myth][2]. If you would like to learn more about Hercules, here is [a list of all the times he was mentioned in Greek literature][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0548.tlg001.perseus-eng1:2.5.2&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1998/2/98.02.06.x.html#a&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://people.uncw.edu/deagona/herakles/authors.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4900" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="403" RevisionGUID="990982c6-cedc-4262-8907-3fb117a7d183" CreationDate="2015-08-21T17:56:11.533" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 209 characters in body" Text="Here is [a list of all the times Hercules is referenced in Greek literature][1] (this is useful if you need to quote the original Hercules myth).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://people.uncw.edu/deagona/herakles/authors.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4901" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="403" RevisionGUID="990982c6-cedc-4262-8907-3fb117a7d183" CreationDate="2015-08-21T17:56:11.533" Comment="Proposed by 62 approved by 183 edit id of 223" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4903" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1078" RevisionGUID="eda84f48-19cd-4cb0-ace3-8a704cb518a3" CreationDate="2015-08-24T02:28:00.453" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 7 characters in body" Text="No. [*The Library* by Apollodorus][1], our main account of the myth of Hercules, does not mention anything about the Hydra (or any of the other labours) being &quot;imitated&quot; or &quot;faked&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  As a second labour he ordered him to kill the Lernaean hydra. That creature, bred in the swamp of Lerna, used to go forth into the plain and ravage both the cattle and the country. Now the hydra had a huge body, with nine heads, eight mortal, but the middle one immortal. So mounting a chariot driven by Iolaus, he came to Lerna, and having halted his horses, he discovered the hydra on a hill beside the springs of the Amymone, where was its den. By pelting it with fiery shafts he forced it to come out, and in the act of doing so he seized and held it fast. But the hydra wound itself about one of his feet and clung to him. Nor could he effect anything by smashing its heads with his club, for as fast as one head was smashed there grew up two. A huge crab also came to the help of the hydra by biting his foot. So he killed it, and in his turn called for help on Iolaus who, by setting fire to a piece of the neighboring wood and burning the roots of the heads with the brands, prevented them from sprouting. Having thus got the better of the sprouting heads, he chopped off the immortal head, and buried it, and put a heavy rock on it, beside the road that leads through Lerna to Elaeus. But the body of the hydra he slit up and dipped his arrows in the gall. However, Eurystheus said that this labour should not be reckoned among the ten because he had not got the better of the hydra by himself, but with the help of Iolaus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Apollodorus, *The Library*][1])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As should be expected, popular fiction isn't always an accurate representation of Greek mythology. If you would like to learn more about Hercules, here is [a list of all the times he was mentioned in Greek literature][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0548.tlg001.perseus-eng1:2.5.2&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1998/2/98.02.06.x.html#a&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://people.uncw.edu/deagona/herakles/authors.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4906" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1077" RevisionGUID="7dfa7092-4d18-436d-9ebb-91aa707c732c" CreationDate="2015-08-25T16:09:40.637" UserId="197" Comment="qualify in the title which movie" Text="Did Hercules complete his labors as described in the 2014 movie &quot;Hercules&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4907" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1077" RevisionGUID="7dfa7092-4d18-436d-9ebb-91aa707c732c" CreationDate="2015-08-25T16:09:40.637" Comment="Proposed by 197 approved by 398, 671 edit id of 224" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4913" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1081" RevisionGUID="a85440f5-4cb0-4eea-9d38-376a37b9546b" CreationDate="2015-08-28T18:10:28.967" UserId="690" Text="Each time that Sisyphus began to roll the boulder up the mountain was he aware BEFORE beginning the task that the boulder would roll back down once he had finished? In other words, in 4 to being compelled to undertake a task that he could never complete, was he also given the additional burden of knowing he was engaged in a futile task? Will you please refer me to any resources you have used to support your conclusion?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although I can imagine the gods having the power implant a desire in a man, I find it more difficult to believe (based on my limited education on the topic) that they can force a man to do something against his will. So, if the gods can force a man to do something against his will, can you provide other examples of where they have been so?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4914" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1081" RevisionGUID="a85440f5-4cb0-4eea-9d38-376a37b9546b" CreationDate="2015-08-28T18:10:28.967" UserId="690" Text="What did Sisyphus know and when did he know it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4915" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1081" RevisionGUID="a85440f5-4cb0-4eea-9d38-376a37b9546b" CreationDate="2015-08-28T18:10:28.967" UserId="690" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4918" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1081" RevisionGUID="893af09f-55ad-4f66-8ea5-ace4793ee793" CreationDate="2015-08-28T21:50:26.620" UserId="183" Comment="added 9 characters in body" Text="Each time that Sisyphus began to roll the boulder up the mountain was he aware *before* beginning the task that the boulder would roll back down once he had finished? In other words, in addition to being compelled to undertake a task that he could never complete, was he also given the additional burden of knowing he was engaged in a futile task? Will you please refer me to any resources you have used to support your conclusion?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although I can imagine the gods having the power implant a desire in a man, I find it more difficult to believe (based on my limited education on the topic) that they can force a man to do something against his will. So, if the gods can force a man to do something against his will, can you provide other examples of where they have been so?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4919" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="479" RevisionGUID="7d6c1c46-3aa2-419a-bf5e-0f247fcbc07a" CreationDate="2015-08-28T22:39:26.390" UserId="-1" Comment="18" />
  <row Id="4921" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1082" RevisionGUID="3e80df69-a330-4091-b655-2e4f53ad93ad" CreationDate="2015-08-30T06:55:12.303" UserId="698" Text="As we know that the four horse men are the ones who will bring apocalypse to the earth,So are they even more powerful than than the divil also or they work under the command of the Devil " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4922" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1082" RevisionGUID="3e80df69-a330-4091-b655-2e4f53ad93ad" CreationDate="2015-08-30T06:55:12.303" UserId="698" Text="Are the four Horseman more powerful than Devil?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4923" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1082" RevisionGUID="3e80df69-a330-4091-b655-2e4f53ad93ad" CreationDate="2015-08-30T06:55:12.303" UserId="698" Text="|mythohistory|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4924" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1082" RevisionGUID="9391bcc3-7e6e-4ace-a95d-498b49c5258a" CreationDate="2015-08-31T02:45:20.677" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 45 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="The Four Horsemen are the ones who will bring the apocalypse. Are they under the command of the devil? Are they more powerful than the devil? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4925" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1082" RevisionGUID="9391bcc3-7e6e-4ace-a95d-498b49c5258a" CreationDate="2015-08-31T02:45:20.677" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 45 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Are the four Horsemen more powerful than the Devil?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4926" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1082" RevisionGUID="9391bcc3-7e6e-4ace-a95d-498b49c5258a" CreationDate="2015-08-31T02:45:20.677" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 45 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|christianity|apocalypse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4930" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1084" RevisionGUID="b95d7ad4-4d5a-4565-beb1-1bd2f51feee2" CreationDate="2015-08-31T21:15:21.507" UserDisplayName="user686" Text="This depends on your definition of &quot;power.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The four horsemen have certain powers][1] according to Revelation 6:8:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They were given authority over a quarter of the earth, to kill with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sword, famine and plague, and by means of the beasts of the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that the passage does not state _who_ or _what_ gave them this power: was it the Devil acting via proxy? Was it the Wrath of God? There are myths about this, but the question is specifically asking about the Christian apocalypse which implies source material would have to be in the book of Revelation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What we can infer from this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* The Horsemen were destructive in nature: this goes against the nature of God as defined in the new testament as being a kinder, gentler diety compared to the old testament. Clearly their power must derive from evil, but we do not know their origin. This makes it difficult to measure them against the Devil: i.e. if Satan created them we might know they are strictly lesser in power.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* The Horsemen are able to affect earth directly by killing, starving, and infecting men. A few verses prior to the above quote, we learn that War is able to cause men to fight each other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;What do we know about the Devil?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* He is one of God's archangels, fallen from heaven. He clearly must be powerful, and evil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Numerous times throughout the Bible, we see the Devil act. However, he never actually _does_ anything. His power is that of suggestion and temptation. In Genesis he tempts Eve to eat the forbidden fruit, so she will cause the fall of man from grace. In the Gospels he tempts Jesus multiple times, but is unable to sway him or to harm him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;Given what we know, how do they compare?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* If we measure known quantities about where they came from, the Devil is likely more powerful. He is a fallen archangel, one of God's lieutenants. We know almost nothing (in scripture) about the origin of the Horsemen: this implies they are not major players in the grand scheme of things.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* If we measure what they are capable of actually doing, the Horsemen are likely more powerful. They can directly impact earth, killing people either directly via sword, famine or disease, or by causing mayhem wherein men kill each other. The Devil can merely suggest that men cause themselves to fall from grace.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Apocalypse" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4931" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1085" RevisionGUID="96d45ee6-1dab-4ed1-ae84-c9cd56cc31c5" CreationDate="2015-08-31T21:43:07.033" UserId="705" Text="I'll do a similar assessment of the Norse segment, since I'm most familiar with it, and because I think it is a good illustration of why giant beings are at least sometimes featured in such myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Technically speaking, Ymir did not *create* the world, he *was* the world (well, specifically, &quot;the world,&quot; minus Muspellheim, Niflheim, and Ginnungagap, which already existed and actually created Ymir, himself; and possibly only Midgard and Asgard, specifically, though presumably the other worlds, too, given the dwarves were also created at the same time). His body (even before Odin, Vili, and Ve killed him) was the source from which the materials to make the world and life came. It's a potentially subtle (on the surface), but rather important difference.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The world is *freaking huge*. Trees, left to grow for a few hundred years, can grow several feet in diameter and a couple hundred feet tall. The sea, even when out on it, stretches as far as the eye can see, and the sky was untraversible entirely. The planet, itself, is so huge that even modern humans have a hard time wrapping their head around the concept of its size (yes, we can measure it and can cite the distance of its circumference or diameter, but it's still difficult to fully understand what that size actually *means*).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We create things all the time, so someone had to create the world, right? We create things larger than us (houses, boats, etc), but generally require materials to also be larger than us (namely, trees), even if the materials aren't as large as the final thing, or if we use different parts of the source material for different purposes. So, the gods would have had to have a source from which to create things, since they were the creators. That's the hypothetical idea, anyway.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's hypothesized by scholars that Odin, Vili, Ve (and, for that matter, their parents, Borr and Bestla), as well as Ymir, in the myth are representations of the primal forces of nature. Additionally, many parts of the natural world are, in other nordic myths, created/handled by Jotunar, *are* Jotunar, or handled by descendants of Jotunar, lending them again to the role of the primal/primeval forces." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4932" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1086" RevisionGUID="c93ce266-2903-4f89-9ef0-5ca1dfbfeec2" CreationDate="2015-08-31T22:24:25.300" UserId="705" Text="Given the amount of influence both ways, I'm surprised you didn't include Norse/Germanic mythology as &quot;near enough&quot; in your question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Within it, there are two stories of sacrifice that contain several parallels to the Christian story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first, and more literal and obvious of the two, is the story of Baldr. While not sacrificed, he was slain and is said to be reborn after Ragnarok. Often being associated with light and purity, he is very often drawn as a Christ parallel. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact, [*Gylfaginning* has this to say of Baldr][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The second son of Odin is Baldur, and good things are to be said of him. He is best, and all praise him; he is so fair of feature, and so bright, that light shines from him. A certain herb is so white that it is likened to Baldr's brow; of all grasses it is whitest, and by it thou mayest judge his fairness, both in hair and in body. He is the wisest of the Æsir, and the fairest-spoken and most gracious; and that quality attends him, that none may gainsay his judgments. He dwells in the place called Breidablik, which is in heaven; in that place may nothing unclean be[.]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What little remains about Baldr suggests that the events surrounding his death and rebirth happen in places other than Midgard (presumably in Asgard, though time and Christian influence has changed it to &quot;heaven&quot; in the texts).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second, as less obvious parallel is Odin's sacrifices for wisdom and the runes. The biggest difference here is that Odin did not sacrifice his life, but other things. His eye to Mimir's well for wisdom, for one. The sacrifice for obtaining the runes is more complex, but still applicable in its parallels, I think:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I know that I hung on a wind-rocked tree,&#xD;&#xA;nine whole nights,&#xD;&#xA;with a spear wounded, and to Odin offered,&#xD;&#xA;myself to myself;&#xD;&#xA;on that tree, of which no one knows&#xD;&#xA;from what root it springs.&#xD;&#xA;Bread no one gave me, nor a horn of drink,&#xD;&#xA;downward I peered,&#xD;&#xA;to runes applied myself, wailing learnt them,&#xD;&#xA;then fell down thence&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Havamal][2])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both events took place in locations other than Midgard, and the sacrifice on the tree has a number of parallels to Jesus' crucifixion (spear wound in the side, lack of food and water, hanging from a tree or wood).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whether you want to say that the Germanic mythology influenced the Christian one, or the other way around, it's pretty clear that there is precedent of sacrificial cycles occurring in a non-Earth realm.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre04.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/havamal.html#runes" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4933" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1084" RevisionGUID="da316861-a3cd-4656-8630-cbfb291b74d7" CreationDate="2015-09-01T00:34:57.403" UserDisplayName="user686" Comment="Added quotes." Text="This depends on your definition of &quot;power.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The four horsemen have certain powers][1] according to [Revelation 6][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2: I looked, and there was a white horse, and its rider had a bow. He&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was given a crown, and he rode forth victorious to further his victories.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4: Another horse came out, a red one. Its rider was given power to take&#xD;&#xA;&gt; peace away from the earth, so that people would slaughter one another.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And he was given a huge sword. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 5: When he broke open the third seal, I heard the third living creature&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cry out, &quot;Come forward.&quot; I looked, and there was a black horse, and its&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rider held a scale in his hand. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 8: I looked, and there was a pale green horse. Its rider was named&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Death, and Hades accompanied him. They were given authority over a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; quarter of the earth, to kill with sword, famine and plague, and by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; means of the beasts of the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that the passage does not state _who_ or _what_ gave them this power: was it the Devil acting via proxy? Was it the Wrath of God? There are myths about this, but the question is specifically asking about the Christian apocalypse which implies source material would have to be in the book of Revelation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What we can infer from this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* The Horsemen were destructive in nature: this goes against the nature of God as defined in the new testament as being a kinder, gentler diety compared to the old testament. Clearly their power must derive from evil, but we do not know their origin. This makes it difficult to measure them against the Devil: i.e. if Satan created them we might know they are strictly lesser in power.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* The Horsemen are able to affect earth directly by killing, starving, and infecting men. In verse 4, we learn that War is able to cause men to fight each other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;What do we know about the Devil?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* He is one of God's archangels, fallen from heaven. He clearly must be powerful, and evil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Numerous times throughout the Bible, we see the Devil act. However, he never actually _does_ anything. His power is that of suggestion and temptation. In Genesis he tempts Eve to eat the forbidden fruit, so she will cause the fall of man from grace. In the Gospels he tempts Jesus multiple times, but is unable to sway him or to harm him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Genesis 3][3] shows the snake is &quot;cunning&quot; and tricks Eve:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1: Now the snake was the most cunning of all the wild animals that the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; LORD God had made. He asked the woman, &quot;Did God really say, 'You shall&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not eat from any of the trees in the garden'?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; . . .&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 13: The LORD God then asked the woman: What is this you have done? The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; woman answered, &quot;The snake tricked me, so I ate it.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This great deceiver, the serpent, is later identified to be the Devil in [Revelation 12:9][4]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The huge dragon, the ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Satan, who deceived the whole world, was thrown down to earth, and its&#xD;&#xA;&gt; angels were thrown down with it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Devil persuades Eve to commit the original sin without actually doing anything other than talking.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [Matthew 4][5], we see the Devil tempt Jesus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1: Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the devil.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 3: The tempter approached and said to him, &quot;If you are the Son of God,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; command that these stones become loaves of bread.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 5-6: Then the devil took him to the holy city, and made him stand on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the parapet of the temple, 6and said to him, &quot;If you are the Son of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; God, throw yourself down...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 8-9: Then the devil took him up to a very high mountain, and showed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him all the kingdoms of the world in their magnificence, and he said&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to him, &quot;All these I shall give to you, if you will prostrate yourself&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and worship me.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 10: At this, Jesus said to him, &quot;Get away, Satan! ...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jesus specifically identifies the tempter as Satan, the Devil. All he can do is suggest to Jesus that he do certain things: he did not _make_ Jesus turn rocks into bread, or jump off a roof safely. His power is clearly that of suggestion and temptation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;Given what we know, how do they compare?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* If we measure known quantities about where they came from, the Devil is likely more powerful. He is a fallen archangel, one of God's lieutenants. We know almost nothing (in scripture) about the origin of the Horsemen: this implies they are not major players in the grand scheme of things.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* If we measure what they are capable of actually doing, the Horsemen are likely more powerful. They can directly impact earth, killing people either directly via sword, famine or disease, or by causing mayhem wherein men kill each other. The Devil can merely suggest that men cause themselves to fall from grace.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Apocalypse&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.usccb.org/bible/revelation/6&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.usccb.org/bible/genesis/3&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.usccb.org/bible/rev/12:09&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.usccb.org/bible/matthew/4" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4934" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1085" RevisionGUID="b6a2339a-495e-47f0-9aa2-213c29621f9f" CreationDate="2015-09-01T12:53:01.260" UserId="705" Comment="added citations" Text="I'll do a similar assessment of the Norse segment, since I'm most familiar with it, and because I think it is a good illustration of why giant beings are at least sometimes featured in such myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Technically speaking, Ymir did not *create* the world, he *was* the world (well, specifically, &quot;the world,&quot; minus Muspellheim, Niflheim, and Ginnungagap, which already existed and actually created Ymir, himself; and possibly only Midgard and Asgard, specifically, though presumably the other worlds, too, given the dwarves were also created at the same time). His body (even before Odin, Vili, and Ve killed him) was the source from which the materials to make the world and life came. ([Gylfaginning][1]) It's a potentially subtle (on the surface), but rather important difference.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The world is *freaking huge*. Trees, left to grow for a few hundred years, can grow several feet in diameter and a couple hundred feet tall. The sea, even when out on it, stretches as far as the eye can see, and the sky was untraversible entirely. The planet, itself, is so huge that even modern humans have a hard time wrapping their head around the concept of its size (yes, we can measure it and can cite the distance of its circumference or diameter, but it's still difficult to fully understand what that size actually *means*).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We create things all the time, so someone had to create the world, right? We create things larger than us (houses, boats, etc), but generally require materials to also be larger than us (namely, trees), even if the materials aren't as large as the final thing, or if we use different parts of the source material for different purposes. So, the gods would have had to have a source from which to create things, since they were the creators. That's the hypothetical idea, anyway (unfortunately, it's impossible to know why ancient people created the stories the way they did, we can only interpret the information we do have, find patterns and whatnot, and form hypotheses).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's hypothesized by some scholars -- [namely Finnur Magnússon][2]* -- that Odin, Vili, Ve (and, for that matter, their parents, Borr and Bestla), as well as Ymir, in the myth are representations of the primal forces of nature. Additionally, many parts of the natural world are, in other nordic myths, created/handled by Jotunar, *are* Jotunar, or handled by descendants of Jotunar, lending them again to the role of the primal/primeval forces. The stories, then, are a way of understanding forces that otherwise seem completely random, nonsensical, or otherwise mystifying (in Norse lore, this continues on beyond the creation myth, with [the sun and moon as beings][3] unto themselves, complete with parentage).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*(Using this link, because it seems and English version of *Lexicon Mythologicum* is not readily available online. [Here's the original-language version for those interested.][4] If someone knows of an English version, I'll be happy to link it.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre04.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borr#Theories_and_interpretations&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe03.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://books.google.com/books?id=Q8RBAAAAcAAJ&amp;pg=PA1&amp;lpg=PA1&amp;dq=Lexicon%20Mythologicum%20Finnur%20Magn%C3%BAsson&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=ljG-yy8v9w&amp;sig=cd14ooRYD4wfImoFR4-TjgYzf7Y&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0CDAQ6AEwBGoVChMIzL_1yuzVxwIViowNCh0waQPu#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4950" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1086" RevisionGUID="c7c51a79-8875-4be6-8242-fe0ac4b4f5ca" CreationDate="2015-09-03T18:34:07.920" UserId="705" Comment="added more detail on how the jews and germanics would have connected, added canaanite info" Text="Given the amount of influence both ways, I'm surprised you didn't include Norse/Germanic mythology as &quot;near enough&quot; in your question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Within it, there are two stories of sacrifice that contain several parallels to the Christian story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first, and more literal and obvious of the two, is the story of Baldr. While not sacrificed, he was slain and is said to be reborn after Ragnarok. Often being associated with light and purity, he is very often drawn as a Christ parallel. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact, [*Gylfaginning* has this to say of Baldr][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The second son of Odin is Baldur, and good things are to be said of him. He is best, and all praise him; he is so fair of feature, and so bright, that light shines from him. A certain herb is so white that it is likened to Baldr's brow; of all grasses it is whitest, and by it thou mayest judge his fairness, both in hair and in body. He is the wisest of the Æsir, and the fairest-spoken and most gracious; and that quality attends him, that none may gainsay his judgments. He dwells in the place called Breidablik, which is in heaven; in that place may nothing unclean be[.]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What little remains about Baldr suggests that the events surrounding his death and rebirth happen in places other than Midgard (presumably in Asgard, though time and Christian influence has changed it to &quot;heaven&quot; in the texts).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second, as less obvious parallel is Odin's sacrifices for wisdom and the runes. The biggest difference here is that Odin did not sacrifice his life, but other things. His eye to Mimir's well for wisdom, for one. The sacrifice for obtaining the runes is more complex, but still applicable in its parallels, I think:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I know that I hung on a wind-rocked tree,&#xD;&#xA;nine whole nights,&#xD;&#xA;with a spear wounded, and to Odin offered,&#xD;&#xA;myself to myself;&#xD;&#xA;on that tree, of which no one knows&#xD;&#xA;from what root it springs.&#xD;&#xA;Bread no one gave me, nor a horn of drink,&#xD;&#xA;downward I peered,&#xD;&#xA;to runes applied myself, wailing learnt them,&#xD;&#xA;then fell down thence&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Havamal][2])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both events took place in locations other than Midgard, and the sacrifice on the tree has a number of parallels to Jesus' crucifixion (spear wound in the side, lack of food and water, hanging from a tree or wood).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whether you want to say that the Germanic mythology influenced the Christian one, or the other way around, it's pretty clear that there is precedent of sacrificial cycles occurring in a non-Earth realm.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**But These Were Recorded In The 12th Century**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They weren't *written down* until 12th century, true, but the Germanic tribes were a strong oral culture, not unlike the Jews were before the books of the Bible were written down.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So how would the Jews and the Germanic people interact? Simply put, via the Romans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Romans were spread far and wide. The Roman Empire, itself, spread into what is now Israel, Saudi Arabia, and the entire northern coast of Africa. Combine that with the Silk Road trade route, and they were mixing cultural aspects from as far east as China with that of the Gauls from England. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Romans and Germanics were not strangers, by any stretch, and the Germanic tribes were well-documented by the Romans, including Julius Cesaer and Senator Tacitus. Tacitus even illustrates in *Germania* that several of the southernmost Germanic tribes were part of the Roman Empire (and the Roman Republic before it), [among other details][3] about them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Romans, even long before the Empire, were equal-opportunity slavers, bringing slaves in from all corners of their reach. Combined with the [Jewish Encyclopedia's attestation][4] that the Jews had been in Rome since at least as early as the 100s BCE, it makes at least some contact between the Germanics and the Jews rather likely. Start combining stories of Baldr and Forseti with those of Jesus, and you start seeing both the Earthly Jesus story (Forseti's &quot;12+1&quot; motif) and the Heavenly Jesus sacrifice/resurrection (Baldr's sacrifice/resurrection motif). With the propensity of Earthly sacrificial gods, though ([Horus, Mithra, Osiris, etc.][5]), it's easy to see why the Earthly Jesus story won out in the canon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Other Early Influence**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think most notably, the Canaanites' religion -- specifically Ba'al -- had some of the heaviest influence with regard to a death/resurrection deity. Hell, Ba'al is mentioned in several passages of the Bible, itself, as basically an example of &quot;who not to worship,&quot; and the Bible goes to great lengths to make Ba'al out to be supremely evil. This (along with various other knowledge of the fluidity of religion around that time) suggests to me that worship or otherwise acknowledgement of Ba'al may have had more influence than a Greek or Roman counterpart (which, it seems, the Jews actively resisted as they resisted assimilation into the Roman culture in general). The story of [Ahab in 1 Kings][6] is a prime example of this issue.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ba'al is attested][7] to be the son of another deity (usually attested as El, though Dagon is a close contender), though is the principal god of the Canaanites. He basically represented life in pretty much all its aspects -- fertility, rain, the sun, the cycle of the year. He, himself, died and was reborn every year (presumably in the Canaanites' version of heaven or non-earthly plane).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**But Christianity Doesn't Have That Kind Of Cyclical Nature**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You may be thinking that the cyclical nature rules them out as influences on the Jesus story. I disagree. For one, Jedeo-Christianity does actually have a cyclical nature to it, it just happens that the cycles tend to be quite a bit longer -- in multiples of 7. The most common, of course, is the week, but year-length ones exist, too. Every 7th year is a sabbatical year, every 7th sabbatical year (well, technically, the year after, since that year is the sabbatical, and like the Sabbath day, it's pretty much required to rest, so every 50th year; at least, that's how I understand it, but I'm not a Jewish scholar) is a Jubilee.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The lengths of these cycles seem to hold up with Judeo-Christian lore, as they [seem to line up with times of prosperity or distress among the Israelites or prominent Biblical figures][8], though often on timelines of several centuries (basically, they faced Jehovah's wrath if they missed too many Sabbatical years, or worse, too many Jubilees). In the case of Jeremiah, it was a 70 year punishment after 490 years of the Israelites not obeying the Sabbath years. It was also not uncommon for punishments to be laid out over the course of a generation or more (the Israelites lost in the desert for 40 years, for example).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Likewise, the prophecy of Daniel about the rebuilding of Jerusalem is 1000 years in length, as is the reign of Jesus after the Second Coming and Tribulation period, further lending to very long cycle lengths. In other words, it's not that there's no cycle, it's just that the cycles in Judeo-Christianity are *really long*, so we only see information about a couple completed regarding Jesus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre04.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/havamal.html#runes&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://facultystaff.richmond.edu/~wstevens/history331texts/barbarians.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12816-rome#1005&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.liberalamerica.org/2015/03/17/5-near-identical-jesus-christ-myths-that-predate-jesus/&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Kings%2016&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.pantheon.org/articles/b/baal.html&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.1260-1290-days-bible-prophecy.org/Jubilee-missing-Sabbaths.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4952" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1090" RevisionGUID="ac6ce32f-7491-4c98-9cf8-4de0d2df9073" CreationDate="2015-09-05T17:37:12.270" UserId="721" Text=" &#xD;&#xA;&quot;Among the phenomena they describe is the Milky Way, which the Egyptians called &quot;the beaten path of stars&quot;. Like other parts of the sky, it could be navigated by boat, and was apparently viewed as a series of islands in the midst of celestial waters.&quot; (Ancient Egypt (Chapter 9, p.117) (David P. Silverman)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What else is known about these so called islands in the sky? What are their names and how are they described? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4953" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1090" RevisionGUID="ac6ce32f-7491-4c98-9cf8-4de0d2df9073" CreationDate="2015-09-05T17:37:12.270" UserId="721" Text="Star islands in Egyptian cosmology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4954" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1090" RevisionGUID="ac6ce32f-7491-4c98-9cf8-4de0d2df9073" CreationDate="2015-09-05T17:37:12.270" UserId="721" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4955" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1091" RevisionGUID="1eb700c6-e518-42bb-826a-6845dc438dbc" CreationDate="2015-09-05T21:21:39.853" UserId="467" Text="Not having received an answer to my question, I decided to write up my own thoughts on it. My explanation is too long to post here, so I posted it on my blog (below). In summary, while Frazier had originally oversimplified his case for dying and rising gods, there was then an overreaction against the idea in the mid to late 20th century, and now I think the pendulum has properly swung back to a middle ground, on the basis of sound scholarly research. Second, while I don't think the dying-and-rising gods motif can explain the *origin* of the notion of Christ's resurrection in Palestine among his followers, it may have played a role in contributing to the *later spread and popularity* of Christianity in the Roman empire. For my more detailed analysis, see https://mythologymatters.wordpress.com/2015/08/29/are-dying-and-rising-gods-dead/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4956" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1090" RevisionGUID="21092303-7799-4130-a124-6878c27ee3f0" CreationDate="2015-09-05T21:38:05.597" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="citation style easier to follow" Text=" &#xD;&#xA;&quot;Among the phenomena they describe is the Milky Way, which the Egyptians called &quot;the beaten path of stars&quot;. Like other parts of the sky, it could be navigated by boat, and was apparently viewed as a series of islands in the midst of celestial waters.&quot; (Silverman, David P., [Ancient Egypt][1], p.117).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What else is known about these so called islands in the sky? What are their names and how are they described? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Egypt-David-P-Silverman/dp/019521952X" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4957" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1091" RevisionGUID="6ab850ea-9df6-4e4a-b13c-0f3105669dbe" CreationDate="2015-09-06T00:36:42.273" UserId="467" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="Not having received an answer to my question, I decided to write up my own thoughts on it. My explanation is too long to post here, so I posted it on my blog (below). In summary, while Frazer had originally oversimplified his case for dying and rising gods, there was then an overreaction against the idea in the mid to late 20th century, and now I think the pendulum has properly swung back to a middle ground, on the basis of sound scholarly research. Second, while I don't think the dying-and-rising gods motif can explain the *origin* of the notion of Christ's resurrection in Palestine among his followers, it may have played a role in contributing to the *later spread and popularity* of Christianity in the Roman empire. For my more detailed analysis, see https://mythologymatters.wordpress.com/2015/08/29/are-dying-and-rising-gods-dead/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4958" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1090" RevisionGUID="81d17516-7de9-41ab-91b5-d87276fdb576" CreationDate="2015-09-06T00:44:23.663" UserId="183" Comment="edited body" Text="&gt; Among the phenomena they describe is the Milky Way, which the Egyptians called &quot;the beaten path of stars&quot;. Like other parts of the sky, it could be navigated by boat, and was apparently viewed as a series of islands in the midst of celestial waters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Silverman, David P., [Ancient Egypt][1], p.117).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What else is known about these so called islands in the sky? What are their names and how are they described? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Egypt-David-P-Silverman/dp/019521952X" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4959" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1090" RevisionGUID="f5744540-a7ca-4af4-ba9b-6d972265c6ff" CreationDate="2015-09-06T08:10:04.470" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4966" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1091" RevisionGUID="52effda1-aa78-45da-9ea7-d6776c21cca5" CreationDate="2015-09-08T05:24:16.893" UserId="467" Comment="added 20 characters in body" Text="Not having received an answer to my question here, I decided to write up my own thoughts on it. My explanation is too long to post here, so I posted it on my blog (below). In summary, while Frazer had originally oversimplified and overstated his case for dying and rising gods, there was then an overreaction against the idea in the mid to late 20th century, and now I think the pendulum has properly swung back to a middle ground, on the basis of sound scholarly research. Second, while I don't think the dying-and-rising gods motif can explain the *origin* of the notion of Christ's resurrection in Palestine among his followers, it may have played a role in contributing to the *later spread and popularity* of Christianity in the Roman empire. For my more detailed analysis, see https://mythologymatters.wordpress.com/2015/08/29/are-dying-and-rising-gods-dead/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4967" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="1090" RevisionGUID="c1f1fb46-ca73-41f6-99f7-c5de6e835692" CreationDate="2015-09-08T17:07:32.340" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="20" />
  <row Id="4968" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1093" RevisionGUID="9228d03f-2ef9-4d83-b437-00e8ad7aee82" CreationDate="2015-09-09T06:43:12.430" UserId="731" Text="I'm sure we've all heard of the myth of cats stealing babies' breath, but I'm looking for more than that.  I've heard of two other myths as well, the Boo Hag off Gullah culture and mice in some Chinese myths, but other than that I can't find much of anything." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4969" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1093" RevisionGUID="9228d03f-2ef9-4d83-b437-00e8ad7aee82" CreationDate="2015-09-09T06:43:12.430" UserId="731" Text="Are there any creatures based on breath or air, and specifically stealing these if possible?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4970" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1093" RevisionGUID="9228d03f-2ef9-4d83-b437-00e8ad7aee82" CreationDate="2015-09-09T06:43:12.430" UserId="731" Text="|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4972" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1086" RevisionGUID="c874885f-1baa-4872-8dff-fd8819da18e1" CreationDate="2015-09-11T15:26:31.083" UserId="705" Comment="added 2248 characters in body" Text="Given the amount of influence both ways, I'm surprised you didn't include Norse/Germanic mythology as &quot;near enough&quot; in your question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Within it, there are two stories of sacrifice that contain several parallels to the Christian story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first, and more literal and obvious of the two, is the story of Baldr. While not sacrificed, he was slain and is said to be reborn after Ragnarok. Often being associated with light and purity, he is very often drawn as a Christ parallel. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact, [*Gylfaginning* has this to say of Baldr][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The second son of Odin is Baldur, and good things are to be said of him. He is best, and all praise him; he is so fair of feature, and so bright, that light shines from him. A certain herb is so white that it is likened to Baldr's brow; of all grasses it is whitest, and by it thou mayest judge his fairness, both in hair and in body. He is the wisest of the Æsir, and the fairest-spoken and most gracious; and that quality attends him, that none may gainsay his judgments. He dwells in the place called Breidablik, which is in heaven; in that place may nothing unclean be[.]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What little remains about Baldr suggests that the events surrounding his death and rebirth happen in places other than Midgard (presumably in Asgard, though time and Christian influence has changed it to &quot;heaven&quot; in the texts).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second, as less obvious parallel is Odin's sacrifices for wisdom and the runes. The biggest difference here is that Odin did not sacrifice his life, but other things. His eye to Mimir's well for wisdom, for one. The sacrifice for obtaining the runes is more complex, but still applicable in its parallels, I think:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I know that I hung on a wind-rocked tree,&#xD;&#xA;nine whole nights,&#xD;&#xA;with a spear wounded, and to Odin offered,&#xD;&#xA;myself to myself;&#xD;&#xA;on that tree, of which no one knows&#xD;&#xA;from what root it springs.&#xD;&#xA;Bread no one gave me, nor a horn of drink,&#xD;&#xA;downward I peered,&#xD;&#xA;to runes applied myself, wailing learnt them,&#xD;&#xA;then fell down thence&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Havamal][2])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both events took place in locations other than Midgard, and the sacrifice on the tree has a number of parallels to Jesus' crucifixion (spear wound in the side, lack of food and water, hanging from a tree or wood).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whether you want to say that the Germanic mythology influenced the Christian one, or the other way around, it's pretty clear that there is precedent of sacrificial cycles occurring in a non-Earth realm.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**But These Were Recorded In The 12th Century**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They weren't *written down* until 12th century, true, but the Germanic tribes were a strong oral culture, not unlike the Jews were before the books of the Bible were written down.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So how would the Jews and the Germanic people interact? Simply put, via the Romans, and through their own trade and travel routes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Romans were spread far and wide. The Roman Empire, itself, spread into what is now Israel, Saudi Arabia, and the entire northern coast of Africa. Combine that with the Silk Road trade route, and they were mixing cultural aspects from as far east as China with that of the Gauls from England. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Romans and Germanics were not strangers, by any stretch, and the Germanic tribes were well-documented by the Romans, including Julius Cesaer and Senator Tacitus. Tacitus even illustrates in *Germania* that several of the southernmost Germanic tribes were part of the Roman Empire (and the Roman Republic before it), [among other details][3] about them. Additionally, the Roman army under Gaius Marius captured some 20,000 Teutons at their final defeat in France in 100BC in the Cimbrian War, [many of which went on to fight in the Third Servile War.][4] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Romans, even long before the Empire, were equal-opportunity slavers, bringing slaves in from all corners of their reach. Furthermore, the Romans *intentionally* mixed ethnic groups as a means of preventing solidarity, because they were fully aware of both the tensions between the non-Roman tribes and the ramifications of the slaves forming an army (particularly when headed by trained and tested gladiators). Combined with the [Jewish Encyclopedia's attestation][5] that the Jews had been in Rome since at least as early as the 100s BCE, it makes at least some contact between the Germanics and the Jews rather likely. Start combining stories of Baldr and Forseti with those of Jesus, and you start seeing both the Earthly Jesus story (Forseti's &quot;12+1&quot; motif) and the Heavenly Jesus sacrifice/resurrection (Baldr's sacrifice/resurrection motif). With the propensity of Earthly sacrificial gods, though ([Horus, Mithra, Osiris, etc.][6]), it's easy to see why the Earthly Jesus story won out in the canon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Likewise, the northern Europeans traveled extensively on their own. Recent findings have shown that they [had direct contact with the Arabian nations][7]. This particular contact was a later dating, but says that the Germanic people were no stranger to the Arabians. Interestingly, while the Germanics' hostile movements were more westward, toward France and Spain, the known contacts with Arabian people were largely peaceful -- missions of trade instead of invasion (possibly for metals of various sorts, including silver and iron, due to [the relative scarcity of such minerals in the northern parts of Germania][8]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Other Early Influence**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think most notably, the Canaanites' religion -- specifically Ba'al -- had some of the heaviest influence with regard to a death/resurrection deity. Hell, Ba'al is mentioned in several passages of the Bible, itself, as basically an example of &quot;who not to worship,&quot; and the Bible goes to great lengths to make Ba'al out to be supremely evil. This (along with various other knowledge of the fluidity of religion around that time) suggests to me that worship or otherwise acknowledgement of Ba'al may have had more influence than a Greek or Roman counterpart (which, it seems, the Jews actively resisted as they resisted assimilation into the Roman culture in general). The story of [Ahab in 1 Kings][10] is a prime example of this issue.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ba'al is attested][11] to be the son of another deity (usually attested as El, though Dagon is a close contender), though is the principal god of the Canaanites. He basically represented life in pretty much all its aspects -- fertility, rain, the sun, the cycle of the year. He, himself, died and was reborn every year (presumably in the Canaanites' version of heaven or non-earthly plane).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**But Christianity Doesn't Have That Kind Of Cyclical Nature**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You may be thinking that the cyclical nature rules them out as influences on the Jesus story. I disagree. For one, Jedeo-Christianity does actually have a cyclical nature to it, it just happens that the cycles tend to be quite a bit longer -- in multiples of 7. The most common, of course, is the week, but year-length ones exist, too. Every 7th year is a sabbatical year, every 7th sabbatical year (well, technically, the year after, since that year is the sabbatical, and like the Sabbath day, it's pretty much required to rest, so every 50th year; at least, that's how I understand it, but I'm not a Jewish scholar) is a Jubilee.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The lengths of these cycles seem to hold up with Judeo-Christian lore, as they [seem to line up with times of prosperity or distress among the Israelites or prominent Biblical figures][12], though often on timelines of several centuries (basically, they faced Jehovah's wrath if they missed too many Sabbatical years, or worse, too many Jubilees). In the case of Jeremiah, it was a 70 year punishment after 490 years of the Israelites not obeying the Sabbath years. It was also not uncommon for punishments to be laid out over the course of a generation or more (the Israelites lost in the desert for 40 years, for example).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Likewise, the prophecy of Daniel about the rebuilding of Jerusalem is 1000 years in length, as is the reign of Jesus after the Second Coming and Tribulation period, further lending to very long cycle lengths. In other words, it's not that there's no cycle, it's just that the cycles in Judeo-Christianity are *really long*, so we only see information about a couple completed regarding Jesus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Misc**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately, detailed data gets pretty scarce pretty quickly once you start getting into Pre-Roman and Proto-European stuff, though [tracing the Proto-Indo-European language tree][9] suggests common ancestry at some point, so it's possible the myths you're looking for also trace back to the Proto- time, forming before the clearer deliniations of peoples. That's beyond the scope of this answer at this point, and would probably require quite a bit deeper digging than I have the resources to do, if there's data on that at all.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre04.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/havamal.html#runes&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://facultystaff.richmond.edu/~wstevens/history331texts/barbarians.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://books.google.no/books?id=j3LowhKACVwC&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;dq=marius%20war%20spartacus&amp;hl=no&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=mjS4UOvqI46k4ASo3oDoBQ#v=snippet&amp;q=marius%20german&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12816-rome#1005&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.liberalamerica.org/2015/03/17/5-near-identical-jesus-christ-myths-that-predate-jesus/&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.thenational.ae/world/europe/when-the-arabs-met-the-vikings-new-discovery-suggests-ancient-links#full&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Guillaume_Bertrand2/publication/259706418_Main_mineral_deposits_of_Europe/links/0a85e52d69fda26cd3000000&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/IndoEuropeanTreeDielli1.svg&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Kings%2016&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.pantheon.org/articles/b/baal.html&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.1260-1290-days-bible-prophecy.org/Jubilee-missing-Sabbaths.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4973" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1094" RevisionGUID="632cbcfa-dd64-4ada-a6f1-f857442f0b59" CreationDate="2015-09-12T15:58:06.933" UserId="747" Text="Based on the following passage from Wikipedia (and other common versions of the myth), I don't believe that Sisyphus knew in advance the futility of his efforts:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;As a punishment for his trickery, King Sisyphus was made to endlessly roll a huge boulder up a steep hill. The maddening nature of the punishment was reserved for King Sisyphus due to his hubristic belief that his cleverness surpassed that of Zeus himself. Zeus accordingly displayed his own cleverness by enchanting the boulder into rolling away from King Sisyphus before he reached the top which ended up consigning Sisyphus to an eternity of useless efforts and unending frustration. Thus it came to pass that pointless or interminable activities are sometimes described as Sisyphean.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I believe that the entire point of the punishment was to trick him to believe that he was going to succeed. Moreover, I don't think that he had any choice in the matter, it wasn't his desire to roll the boulder. It resembles Hell in Christianity, those who suffer don't have their say in the matter. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4974" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1094" RevisionGUID="629001c7-34d9-4828-ab4b-b73e3dde0114" CreationDate="2015-09-12T17:16:34.270" UserId="747" Comment="Edited to remove Wikipedia reference and address the speculative aspect of the answer." Text="Based on the following passage from The Encyclopedia of Mythology by Arthur Cotterrell (and other common versions of the myth), I don't believe that Sisyphus knew in advance the futility of his efforts:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Finally, Zeus lost patience and condemned Sisyphus to Tartarus to pay for his lifelong impiety. For the rest of eternity he had to roll a block of stone to the top of a hill only to see it roll back again as it reached the crest.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I believe that the entire point of the punishment was to trick him to believe that he was going to succeed. This is purely speculative, since no version of the myth I read answers this question explicitly. Moreover, I don't think that he had any choice in the matter, it wasn't *his* desire to roll the boulder. It resembles Hell in Christianity, those who suffer don't have their say in the matter. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4975" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1094" RevisionGUID="08ed6e2a-0581-422e-b0fa-5d2b3ab3185d" CreationDate="2015-09-12T22:40:46.687" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="quote formatting" Text="Based on the following passage from The Encyclopedia of Mythology by Arthur Cotterrell (and other common versions of the myth), I don't believe that Sisyphus knew in advance the futility of his efforts:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Finally, Zeus lost patience and condemned Sisyphus to Tartarus to pay for his lifelong impiety. For the rest of eternity he had to roll a block of stone to the top of a hill only to see it roll back again as it reached the crest.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I believe that the entire point of the punishment was to trick him to believe that he was going to succeed. This is purely speculative, since no version of the myth I read answers this question explicitly. Moreover, I don't think that he had any choice in the matter, it wasn't *his* desire to roll the boulder. It resembles Hell in Christianity, those who suffer don't have their say in the matter. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4977" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1095" RevisionGUID="e97fb1c0-556e-4593-abce-1a94044e35e9" CreationDate="2015-09-13T09:21:38.427" UserDisplayName="user746" Text="The generic name for this would be [Night Hag][1]. There is sleep paralysis related folklore worldwide, some of which gave birth to what developed into the modern concept of the [nightmare][2]. I could not find any solid reference for the [cat][3] story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Your mice can be found there:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In Eastern Chinese folklore, it is thought that a mouse can steal human breath at night. Human breath strengthens the mouse, allowing it longevity and the ability to briefly become human at night, in a similar fashion to fox spirits. The mouse sits near the person's face or under their nostrils&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some more samples:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In Scandinavian folklore, sleep paralysis is caused by a mare, a supernatural creature related to incubi and succubi. The mare is a damned woman, who is cursed and her body is carried mysteriously during sleep and without her noticing. In this state, she visits villagers to sit on their rib cages while they are asleep, causing them to experience nightmares.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In many parts of the Southern United States, the phenomenon is known as a hag, and the event is said to portend an approaching tragedy or accident&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In Brazil, there is a legend about a mythological being called the pisadeira (&quot;she who steps&quot;). She is described as a tall, skinny old woman, with long dirty nails in dried toes, white tangled hair, a long nose, staring red eyes, and greenish teeth on her evil laugh. She lives over the roofs, waiting to step on the chest of those who sleep with a full stomach&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Reference:&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_hag&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boo_Hag&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_hag&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightmare&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://In%20Scandinavian%20folklore,%20sleep%20paralysis%20is%20caused%20by%20a%20mare,%20a%20supernatural%20creature%20related%20to%20incubi%20and%20succubi.%20The%20mare%20is%20a%20damned%20woman,%20who%20is%20cursed%20and%20her%20body%20is%20carried%20mysteriously%20during%20sleep%20and%20without%20her%20noticing.%20In%20this%20state,%20she%20visits%20villagers%20to%20sit%20on%20their%20rib%20cages%20while%20they%20are%20asleep,%20causing%20them%20to%20experience%20nightmares." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4979" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1096" RevisionGUID="55c1a9c7-8616-4ae0-8389-a19eb78b297c" CreationDate="2015-09-13T14:27:30.980" UserId="742" Text="The Talmud refers to the Roman god Mercury as Merculus (מרקוליס) and always mentions that god in conjunction with a idolatrous practice of throwing a rock towards a pile of other rocks. Is there any documentation of such a practice as proper worship of Mercury outside of the Talmud?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4980" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1096" RevisionGUID="55c1a9c7-8616-4ae0-8389-a19eb78b297c" CreationDate="2015-09-13T14:27:30.980" UserId="742" Text="Is there a tradition of rock throwing for Mercury?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4981" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1096" RevisionGUID="55c1a9c7-8616-4ae0-8389-a19eb78b297c" CreationDate="2015-09-13T14:27:30.980" UserId="742" Text="|roman|judaism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4983" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1097" RevisionGUID="89138b84-b37d-425d-86c4-f6d52a040fad" CreationDate="2015-09-14T05:19:39.130" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="The Temple of the Rose Cross (sometimes translated as the College of the Rose Cross) is a symbol associated with the [Rosicrucians][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![The Temple of the Rose Cross,][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the meaning of this symbol?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/ros/index.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/2fuMj.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4984" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1097" RevisionGUID="89138b84-b37d-425d-86c4-f6d52a040fad" CreationDate="2015-09-14T05:19:39.130" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="Symbolism of the &quot;Temple of the Rose Cross&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4985" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1097" RevisionGUID="89138b84-b37d-425d-86c4-f6d52a040fad" CreationDate="2015-09-14T05:19:39.130" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="|untagged|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4986" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1098" RevisionGUID="b42449ee-cd89-4d7a-a58f-7c68a88a149b" CreationDate="2015-09-14T16:34:00.433" UserId="183" Text="In [*Confessio Fraternitatis*, Chapter VIII](http://www.sacred-texts.com/sro/rhr/rhr07.htm), it is written&#xD;&#xA;&gt; God, indeed, hath already sent messengers which should testifie His will, to wit, some new stars which have appeared in Serpentarius and Cygnus, the which powerful signs of a great Council shew forth how for all things which human ingenuity discovers, God calls upon His hidden knowledge, as likewise the Book of Nature, though it stands open truly for all eyes, can be read or understood by only a very few.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Serpentarius and Cygnus&quot; point to the serpent (snake) and swan in the upper left- and right- hand corners, respectively. Therefore, the upper part of the plate represents messengers of God to the &quot;Collegium Fraternitatis&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This page](http://sirbacon.org/links/temple_of_rosy_cross.htm) puts forth this same interpretation, but goes further, saying&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Schweighardt succeeds far better than Robert Fludd {Tractatis Apologetica} in escaping the predicament of being unable or unwilling actually to ascribe a physical location to the Rosicrucian Temple. The inference is Masonic-- the Rosicrucian Temple is the universe, its adepts are the wise men of all ages, its disciplines, those who practice the virtues. Life is, therefore, the School of the Holy Ghost.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Schweighardt&quot; refers to Theophilus Schweighardt, the creator of the plate inserted in the question. If this (unsourced, although supposedly based on [*Fama Fraternitatus*](http://www.sacred-texts.com/sro/rhr/rhr06.htm)) source is correct, then the Temple - and the image - is nothing more than a symbol of learning, a life-long task." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4987" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="1090" RevisionGUID="731ce1aa-3253-4b08-944f-8ecea1b1537b" CreationDate="2015-09-16T18:35:12.237" UserId="-1" Comment="20" />
  <row Id="4988" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1099" RevisionGUID="cd99a9af-8f30-4afd-8eb8-64f9c9c65aeb" CreationDate="2015-09-16T21:46:24.320" UserId="758" Text="I can understand why being compared to a snake is bad thing. Snakes are shown as lying, sneaky, animals not to be trusted. You can refer to someone as a &quot;Snake in the grass&quot; and snakes are not generally positive references. Therefore I am confused by the instances where snakes are positive images. Snakes are positive in symbols like the Caduceus, Aesculapius, is used to represent one of the tribes of Israel (Dan), and in several places in a bunch of mythologies, is a positive thing (e.g. Cadmus and family being made into snakes and sent to Elysium). Why are snakes positive symbols? When or what story could have originated a positive snake imagery? Dan was a snake as far as I know because he would protect his land like a snake. Aesculapius I believe, liked to put snakes into bed with dying patients as a last ditch cure. Those do not satisfy me and I could have missed something. Please help clear this up for me." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4989" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1099" RevisionGUID="cd99a9af-8f30-4afd-8eb8-64f9c9c65aeb" CreationDate="2015-09-16T21:46:24.320" UserId="758" Text="When is being a snake good?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4990" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1099" RevisionGUID="cd99a9af-8f30-4afd-8eb8-64f9c9c65aeb" CreationDate="2015-09-16T21:46:24.320" UserId="758" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4991" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1099" RevisionGUID="4be99da0-e3a0-4ad9-8db2-195288937cec" CreationDate="2015-09-16T22:49:33.417" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="broke up into paragraphs, removed please, bullet points makes the examples easier to read" Text="In western culture, being compared to a snake is bad thing. Snakes are portrayed as lying, sneaky animals who are not to be trusted. You can refer to someone as a &quot;snake in the grass&quot; and snakes are not generally positive references. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore I am confused by the instances in mythology where snakes are positive images. To give an extensive list of examples:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;+ Snakes are positive in symbols like the Caduceus, Aesculapius&#xD;&#xA;+ a snake is used to represent one of the tribes of Israel (Dan)&#xD;&#xA;+ Cadmus and family being made into snakes and sent to Elysium&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why are snakes positive symbols in these stories? When or what story could have originated a positive snake imagery?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="4992" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1099" RevisionGUID="4be99da0-e3a0-4ad9-8db2-195288937cec" CreationDate="2015-09-16T22:49:33.417" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="broke up into paragraphs, removed please, bullet points makes the examples easier to read" Text="Why do several myths portray snakes as good things?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5000" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1102" RevisionGUID="0bef9a3e-6dfa-40d2-a0a0-c083a22011af" CreationDate="2015-09-17T08:35:59.880" UserId="469" Text="I've read up a bit but I'm struggling to get a reference to a place, entity or object consisting or containing stone (or rock).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can someone point me in the right direction please?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanx" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5001" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1102" RevisionGUID="0bef9a3e-6dfa-40d2-a0a0-c083a22011af" CreationDate="2015-09-17T08:35:59.880" UserId="469" Text="Is there in Norse mythology a reference to a stone/rock place, entity, object?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5002" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1102" RevisionGUID="0bef9a3e-6dfa-40d2-a0a0-c083a22011af" CreationDate="2015-09-17T08:35:59.880" UserId="469" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5004" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1103" RevisionGUID="c1bac8be-699d-4a9a-a74e-eb19017149ed" CreationDate="2015-09-17T09:52:49.267" UserId="108" Text="[Hrungnir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrungnir), a mighty [jötunn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6tunn), is said to **have a stone head and heart**, as well as a stone shield and weapon. He appears in the [*Prose Edda*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prose_Edda) where he fought and was slain by [Thor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor). A translation of the account can be found [here](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre05.htm):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hrungnir had the heart which is notorious, of hard stone and spiked with three corners, even as the written character is since formed, which men call Hrungnir's Heart. His head also was of stone; his shield too was stone, wide and thick, and he had the shield before him when he stood at Grjótúnagard and waited for Thor. Moreover he had a hone for a weapon, and brandished it over his shoulders, and he was not a pretty sight. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5005" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1102" RevisionGUID="f96ea424-41b7-4b77-ad02-3fc6c3400fc7" CreationDate="2015-09-17T09:53:24.453" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 9 characters in body" Text="I've read up a bit but I'm struggling to get a reference to a place, entity or object consisting or containing stone (or rock).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can someone point me in the right direction please?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5006" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1102" RevisionGUID="732b84c1-1918-47f9-a41f-93e9db116812" CreationDate="2015-09-17T09:59:20.663" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 9 characters in body" Text="I've read up a bit but I'm struggling to get a reference to a place, entity or object consisting or containing stone (or rock).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there beings, mythological objects, or locations that are characterised by stone in Norse mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5007" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1104" RevisionGUID="5cc28db5-4c38-49fe-b58c-e7e9d41006ac" CreationDate="2015-09-17T20:32:11.667" UserId="565" Text="I'm not sure about rock-throwing per se, but the reference may be to the creation of aniconic herms (boundary-markers) employed throughout the Greek world.  If a landowner didn't opt for an iconic herm, he'd simply amass loose stones at the four corners of his property. Despite being non-representational, these markers were still considered sacred to Hermes (Roman: Mercury).  Thus if you think amassing can be viewed as the result of throwing, you may have your answer." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5009" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1104" RevisionGUID="d5a8632b-020b-45d3-9013-0fa3c91c367d" CreationDate="2015-09-18T17:16:22.537" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="wikipedia link" Text="I'm not sure about rock-throwing per se, but the reference may be to the creation of aniconic [herms][1] (boundary-markers) employed throughout the Greek world.  If a landowner didn't opt for an iconic herm, he'd simply amass loose stones at the four corners of his property. Despite being non-representational, these markers were still considered sacred to Hermes (Roman: Mercury).  Thus if you think amassing can be viewed as the result of throwing, you may have your answer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herma" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5010" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1105" RevisionGUID="7ca30bda-a2c2-4a53-8897-a35e601b88c3" CreationDate="2015-09-20T01:15:30.883" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="In this case, Western culture is the outlier. As [Simon explained in the comments][1], serpents feature prominently in many non-western mythologies:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Australia the Aboriginals believe that a Rainbow Serpent created the landscape, embodied the spirit of the fresh water and punished lawbreakers. In Cambodian Mythology, they believe the Khmer People to have been born out of union of Indian and Nagas or Serpents. For Hindus it represents rebirth due to the casting off of it's skin and being 'reborn'. Search for Nāgas for more Hindu myths, they feature prominently in several myths. Koreans fear the snake and worship it as a god. In Mesoamerica we have Quetzalcoatl who was a 'feathered serpent' patron of arts, crafts and merchants.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is this? To answer that question, I'm going to take a look at the epic of Gilgamesh, which is from a similar region as the bible. Here's a description of a snake from the epic:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'This plant, Ur-shanabi, is the &quot;Plant of Heartbeat&quot;,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; with it a man can regain his vigour.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; To Uruk-the-Sheepfold 1 will take it,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; to an ancient will feed some and put the plant to the test! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'Its name shall be &quot;Old Man Grown Young&quot;,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; I will eat it myself, and be again as I was in my youth!'   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; At twenty leagues they broke bread,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; at thirty leagues they stopped for the night.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gilgamesh found a pool whose water was cool,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; down he went into it, to bathe in the water.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Of the plant's fragrance a snake caught scent,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; came up [in silence], and bore the plant off.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As it turned away it sloughed its skin.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Gilgamesh sat down and wept, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Epic of Gilgamesh][2])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To summarize: Gilgamesh has a plant that grants him immortality, but the plant is taken from him by a snake. The snake then becomes immortal, as snakes can &quot;shed their skin&quot; and thus be reborn. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm not trying to suggest that Gilgamesh is a precursor to the bible, or that Gilgamesh represents every other myth that features serpents, but it is illuminating as an example of how other cultures viewed serpents. It's clear from the epic of Gilgamesh that snakes are strongly associated with rebirth, immortality, and life. I hope that goes some way towards explaining why serpents aren't portrayed as &quot;evil&quot; in other cultures.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1099/why-do-several-myths-portray-snakes-as-good-things#comment3687_1099&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.cidmod.org/sidurisadvice/Gilgamesh.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5011" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1106" RevisionGUID="78db83e6-0432-4a08-992c-a5c0b99d07ae" CreationDate="2015-09-20T17:09:38.480" UserId="769" Text="Snakes and serpents are still different in mythologies. Snake is a symbol of poison, poison in words and actions, symbol of evil. But serpent is symbol of wisdom. For some reason serpents are &quot;working&quot; with people and loyal to them. Though in slavic mythology there's no such a thing as serpent as it is, serpent is triple headed dragon that protects the world of Dead. But it's not the answer to the question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Positive symbolism of a snake is probably because snake poison is known for its medical effect, known for ages." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5013" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="26" RevisionGUID="5335910e-e741-44ca-b358-781de5cf34e8" CreationDate="2015-09-21T00:34:45.270" UserId="183" Comment="edited tags" Text="|creation|scientology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5014" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1107" RevisionGUID="655ab1b7-d2dd-4d4f-9ad6-1563104e3404" CreationDate="2015-09-21T01:05:37.310" UserId="398" Text="I'm looking into fabulous creatures and demons specifically in Sumerian texts or Akkadian texts that clearly had a Sumerian origin. I can't seem to find a complete list, if it even exists, and many listed in places are extremely suspect. What I have so far:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Anzu bird&#xD;&#xA; - Asag&#xD;&#xA; - Bull of Heaven&#xD;&#xA; - Galla (same as Galatura?)&#xD;&#xA; - Humbaba&#xD;&#xA; - Kurgara&#xD;&#xA; - Namtar&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What else is out there from the Sumerian side? Any fabulous creatures would be helpful, but I hope to find specifically more demons, too." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5015" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1107" RevisionGUID="655ab1b7-d2dd-4d4f-9ad6-1563104e3404" CreationDate="2015-09-21T01:05:37.310" UserId="398" Text="What demons/fabulous creatures did the Sumerians mention?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5016" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1107" RevisionGUID="655ab1b7-d2dd-4d4f-9ad6-1563104e3404" CreationDate="2015-09-21T01:05:37.310" UserId="398" Text="|mythical-creatures|sumerian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5020" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1055" RevisionGUID="dcba14bc-cc69-4de5-a37d-d8c0a91f8fe8" CreationDate="2015-09-21T16:26:07.620" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|creation|kalevala|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5023" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1109" RevisionGUID="3fde0da4-5475-4505-b521-a2bd624ffa71" CreationDate="2015-09-21T17:05:40.987" UserId="769" Text="Common things can be tracked in Norse and Slavic mythologies, some gods can be portrayed in same way, like Perun and Thor. Their only difference is that Thor has hammer and Perun has an axe. Also Slavic mythology has some same things with mythology of India - slavic god Krishen is analogue of indian Krishna. These common things are actually a sign that whole Europe was concentrated in same place.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By last research, some historians suspect that origin of Indo-European folks come from Urals(Russia), southern area. During a certain period of time some tribes just decided to move to west(explains similar languages of Urals folks and estonian/finnish/hungarian languages).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact, all the mythologies of all the cultures can be considered as relatively created." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5024" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1110" RevisionGUID="5920b9dc-a331-48d4-95fd-fd19ae2c5585" CreationDate="2015-09-22T00:04:40.940" UserId="42" Text="A couple come to mind, though, of course, I make no claim I can provide anything like a complete list:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Tiamat - Primodial ocean goddess, Antagonist to Marduk in the [Enuma Elish](http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/enuma.htm).&#xD;&#xA; - Lilitu / Lillith - Appears notably in [the Huluppu Tree](http://www.piney.com/BabHulTree.html) (as well as appearing in Hebrew texts, of course)&#xD;&#xA; - [Lamassu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamassu) - Human head, animal body and wings.  [Fairly common in art](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/Lammasu.jpg/800px-Lammasu.jpg).&#xD;&#xA; - Lamaštu - Child-snatching demoness, discussed at length in F.A.M. Wiggerman's [Lamaštu, Daughter of Anu](https://www.academia.edu/2393886/Lamastu_Daughter_of_Anu)&#xD;&#xA; - Pazuzu - Protective wind demon, invoked especially against Lamaštu (also discussed thoroughly in [Lamaštu, Daughter of Anu](https://www.academia.edu/2393886/Lamastu_Daughter_of_Anu))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;F.A.M. Wiggerman's [Mesopotamian Protective Spirits:  The Ritual Texts](https://www.academia.edu/2393340/Mesopotamian_Protective_Spirits_The_Ritual_Texts), particularly Section VII &quot;Inventory of Monsters, Brief Discussions&quot; (starting page 143).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Subsection C there gives histories of the following monsters, who are part of the army of Tiamat in the Enuma Elish (which is also discussed here in some depth):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-Lahmu : &quot;the Hairy One&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;-Bašmu : &quot;Venomous Snake&quot;, &quot;Birth Goddess Snake&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;-Mušḫuššu : &quot;Furious Snake&quot;, &quot;Aweful Snake&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;-Ugallu : &quot;Big-Weather Beast&quot;, &quot;Big Day&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;-Uridimmu : &quot;Mad Lion&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;-Kusarikku : &quot;Bison&quot;, &quot;Bison(-bull)&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;-Girtablullû : &quot;Scorpion-Man&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;-Urmahlullû : &quot;Lion-Man&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;-Kulullû : &quot;Fish-Man&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;-Suhurmasu : &quot;Carp-Goat&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5025" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1111" RevisionGUID="489aa02e-5d3e-401a-b9c7-dd5030cbdf36" CreationDate="2015-09-22T18:36:33.563" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5026" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1112" RevisionGUID="7f2837ea-d6bb-4e6d-8219-e179593a00a4" CreationDate="2015-09-22T18:36:33.563" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5027" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1113" RevisionGUID="5685ad9a-344c-46de-9c6d-bbb5d5522ba4" CreationDate="2015-09-22T23:19:32.120" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="In the Bundahishn, Ohrmazd, after being confronted with Ahriman, decides to set a concrete time to fight Ahriman and resolve the conflict:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Ohrmazd, through omniscience, knew that: If I do not grant a period of contest, then it will be possible for him to act so that he may be able to cause the seduction of my creatures to himself. As even now there are many of the intermixture of mankind who practice wrong more than right. And Ohrmazd spoke to the evil spirit thus: 'Appoint a period! so that the intermingling of the conflict may be for nine thousand years. For he knew that by appointing this period the evil spirit would be undone. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([The Bundahishn](http://www.avesta.org/mp/bundahis.html)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After reading this passage several times, I don't understand why &quot;by appointing this period the evil spirit would be undone.&quot; Could someone please explain this to me?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5028" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1113" RevisionGUID="5685ad9a-344c-46de-9c6d-bbb5d5522ba4" CreationDate="2015-09-22T23:19:32.120" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="Wjhy does Ohrmazd need to plan a time to fight Ahriman?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5029" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1113" RevisionGUID="5685ad9a-344c-46de-9c6d-bbb5d5522ba4" CreationDate="2015-09-22T23:19:32.120" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="|persian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5031" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1113" RevisionGUID="d38dc429-de7b-489b-81be-86918cc351be" CreationDate="2015-09-23T18:23:27.760" UserId="-1" Comment="title makes sense" Text="Why does Ohrmazd need to plan a time to fight Ahriman?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5032" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1113" RevisionGUID="d38dc429-de7b-489b-81be-86918cc351be" CreationDate="2015-09-23T18:23:27.760" Comment="Proposed by anonymous approved by 398, 62 edit id of 227" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5033" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1114" RevisionGUID="d03b4f70-952f-4f38-b2c1-18c2cc6322c6" CreationDate="2015-09-24T04:56:41.997" UserId="709" Text="I found reference to the &quot;Treasures of the Dragon Kings&quot; whilst in this wiki article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mythological_objects&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ǒusībùyúnlǚ (Cloud-stepping Boots or Cloud-stepping Shoes), made of lotus fiber, these are one of the treasures of the Dragon Kings; Ào Ming gives them to Sun Wukong in order to get rid of him when he acquires the Ruyi Jingu Bang. (Chinese mythology)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What are the remaining treasures?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5034" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1114" RevisionGUID="d03b4f70-952f-4f38-b2c1-18c2cc6322c6" CreationDate="2015-09-24T04:56:41.997" UserId="709" Text="What are the &quot;Treasures of the Dragon Kings&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5035" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1114" RevisionGUID="d03b4f70-952f-4f38-b2c1-18c2cc6322c6" CreationDate="2015-09-24T04:56:41.997" UserId="709" Text="|chinese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5036" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1114" RevisionGUID="79ac11cf-7d4b-4836-aca4-1fe95156ed55" CreationDate="2015-09-24T05:25:10.687" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="|chinese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5037" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1114" RevisionGUID="79ac11cf-7d4b-4836-aca4-1fe95156ed55" CreationDate="2015-09-24T05:25:10.687" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="I found reference to the &quot;Treasures of the Dragon Kings&quot; whilst in this wiki article [on mythological objects](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mythological_objects).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ǒusībùyúnlǚ (Cloud-stepping Boots or Cloud-stepping Shoes), made of lotus fiber, these are one of the treasures of the Dragon Kings; Ào Ming gives them to Sun Wukong in order to get rid of him when he acquires the Ruyi Jingu Bang. (Chinese mythology)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What are the remaining treasures?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5038" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1115" RevisionGUID="45906f9e-1089-4a9d-add8-c5810f4c6d31" CreationDate="2015-09-24T05:42:45.710" UserId="108" Text="This comes from the *[Journey to the West](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_to_the_West)*, when the monkey king [Sun Wukong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Wukong) &quot;visited&quot; the Dragon King of the East Seas for a weapon. Each of the dragon kings produced a treasure to appease him into leaving in a full set of armaments. Theses were:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. The ***According-To-Your-Wishes Gold-Banded Rod***, from the Dragon King of the East Seas.&#xD;&#xA;1. The ***Lotus-Threaded Cloud-Stepping Treads***, from the Dragon King of the North Seas.&#xD;&#xA;1. The ***Golden Chainmail***, from the Dragon King of the West Seas.&#xD;&#xA;1. The ***Phoenix-Winged Rose-Golden Crown***, from the Dragon King of the South Seas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(These are my own translation, and I tried to be as literal as possible. Published translations of the *Journey* presumably have different names for these items.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I wrote up a fuller post with the original text, but apparently the CJK ban is in effect again so I'm unable to post it. I'll amend this post with the item's proper names and the source text if/when the restriction gets rescinded." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5042" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="41" RevisionGUID="7de6c163-2956-487c-860b-c8abe05c4e99" CreationDate="2015-09-24T16:50:13.583" UserId="108" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:108,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Semaphore&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="5047" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1112" RevisionGUID="162a9ab6-b79c-49cd-a719-4526b9ea87b6" CreationDate="2015-09-29T01:09:19.850" UserId="53" Comment="added 111 characters in body" Text="In Australian Aboriginal mythology, the cloud and rain spirits that created the landscape during the Dreamtime." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5048" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1112" RevisionGUID="162a9ab6-b79c-49cd-a719-4526b9ea87b6" CreationDate="2015-09-29T01:09:19.850" Comment="Proposed by 53 approved by 62, 183 edit id of 226" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5051" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1118" RevisionGUID="9e6320b2-de6d-4691-bb21-7646bfb2740c" CreationDate="2015-09-30T09:49:08.917" UserId="791" Text="I forgot the source of this myth, I also remember tornado disappears as climate change in ancient Asia and hence it becomes a myth, is that real?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5052" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1118" RevisionGUID="9e6320b2-de6d-4691-bb21-7646bfb2740c" CreationDate="2015-09-30T09:49:08.917" UserId="791" Text="Is dragon in fact tornado in Asian?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5053" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1118" RevisionGUID="9e6320b2-de6d-4691-bb21-7646bfb2740c" CreationDate="2015-09-30T09:49:08.917" UserId="791" Text="|dragons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5056" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1118" RevisionGUID="1c6b250b-6bde-47c9-ab4b-b3889bf2c246" CreationDate="2015-09-30T17:41:34.500" UserId="108" Comment="added 11 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="I remember reading that tornadoes disappeared from ancient Asia due to climate change, and so the memory of it is preserved in myth as dragons. Is this true?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5057" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1118" RevisionGUID="1c6b250b-6bde-47c9-ab4b-b3889bf2c246" CreationDate="2015-09-30T17:41:34.500" UserId="108" Comment="added 11 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Did the dragons of Chinese mythology originate from tornadoes?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5058" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1118" RevisionGUID="1c6b250b-6bde-47c9-ab4b-b3889bf2c246" CreationDate="2015-09-30T17:41:34.500" UserId="108" Comment="added 11 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|chinese|dragons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5059" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1119" RevisionGUID="c88896bf-90b8-47a3-b21b-6bba2bfa65c8" CreationDate="2015-09-30T18:12:02.513" UserId="108" Text="The origin of dragons in the Eastern tradition is disputed. The leading explanation is perhaps that the dragon was originally crocodiles. However, one proposed alternative *doe** argue that dragons (`龍`) was historically a word describing tornadoes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Chinese scholarship, there are mainly two hypotheses concerning the essential characteristics of the dragon. One hypothesis aims to find a real prototype of the dragon. This hypothesis often identifies the dragon with a crocodile, **tornado**, or lightning, or even the river.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Yang, Lihui, and Deming An. *Handbook of Chinese Mythology.* Abc-clio, 2005.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It has been argued that the original meaning became gradually lost and shrouded in myth as the natural phenomenon disappeared, and was eventually re-imaged as a fearsome mythical beast.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The main proponent is probably is Dr. Benjamin Chao, a former director of the Institute of Earth Sciences at the [Academia Sinica](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academia_Sinica) in Taiwan. He has published this idea in the Chinese version of the [*Scientific American*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_American) magazine. Not exactly a scientifically rigorous theory, but it has its adherents.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The original article can be found [here](http://www.earth.sinica.edu.tw/~bfchao/publication/cht/201005-099.pdf) from the Academia Sinica." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5060" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1119" RevisionGUID="fc006e6e-45ba-4fb6-9659-2eb1cf92660a" CreationDate="2015-09-30T20:57:45.587" UserId="108" Comment="edited body" Text="The origin of dragons in the Eastern tradition is disputed. The leading explanation is perhaps that the dragon was originally crocodiles. However, one proposed alternative *does* argue that dragons (`龍`) was historically a word describing tornadoes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Chinese scholarship, there are mainly two hypotheses concerning the essential characteristics of the dragon. One hypothesis aims to find a real prototype of the dragon. This hypothesis often identifies the dragon with a crocodile, **tornado**, or lightning, or even the river.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Yang, Lihui, and Deming An. *Handbook of Chinese Mythology.* Abc-clio, 2005.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It has been argued that the original meaning became gradually lost and shrouded in myth as the natural phenomenon disappeared, and was eventually re-imaged as a fearsome mythical beast.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The main proponent is probably is Dr. Benjamin Chao, a former director of the Institute of Earth Sciences at the [Academia Sinica](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academia_Sinica) in Taiwan. He has published this idea in the Chinese version of the [*Scientific American*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_American) magazine. Not exactly a scientifically rigorous theory, but it has its adherents.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The original article can be found [here](http://www.earth.sinica.edu.tw/~bfchao/publication/cht/201005-099.pdf) from the Academia Sinica." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5061" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1120" RevisionGUID="1db26c87-049e-482a-baf2-2f344fd52125" CreationDate="2015-10-01T01:33:41.273" UserId="183" Text="In [Part VII of *Beowulf*](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16328/16328-h/16328-h.htm#VII), Beowulf tells Hrothgar&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I shall manage the matter, with the monster of evil,  &#xD;&#xA;The giant, decide it. Thee I would therefore  &#xD;&#xA;Beg of thy bounty, Bright-Danish chieftain,  &#xD;&#xA;Lord of the Scyldings, this single petition:  &#xD;&#xA;Not to refuse me, defender of warriors,  &#xD;&#xA;Friend-lord of folks, so far have I sought thee,  &#xD;&#xA;That I may unaided, my earlmen assisting me,  &#xD;&#xA;This brave-mooded war-band, purify Heorot.  &#xD;&#xA;I have heard on inquiry, the horrible creature  &#xD;&#xA;Since the monster uses no weapons,  &#xD;&#xA;From veriest rashness recks not for weapons;  &#xD;&#xA;I this do scorn then, so be Higelac gracious,  &#xD;&#xA;My liegelord belovèd, lenient of spirit,  &#xD;&#xA;To bear a blade or a broad-fashioned target,  &#xD;&#xA;A shield to the onset; only with hand-grip  &#xD;&#xA;I, too, shall disdain to use any.  &#xD;&#xA;The foe I must grapple, fight for my life then&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In essence, Beowulf intends to fight the monster, Grendel, without any weapons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yet when Grendel does arrive, Beowulf's men are armed:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; . . . Many a noble  &#xD;&#xA;Of Beowulf brandished his battle-sword old,  &#xD;&#xA;Would guard the life of his lord and protector,  &#xD;&#xA;The far-famous chieftain, if able to do so;  &#xD;&#xA;While waging the warfare, this wist they but little,  &#xD;&#xA;Brave battle-thanes, while his body intending  &#xD;&#xA;No weapon would harm Grendel; he bore a charmed life.  &#xD;&#xA;To slit into slivers, and seeking his spirit:  &#xD;&#xA;That the relentless foeman nor finest of weapons  &#xD;&#xA;Of all on the earth, nor any of war-bills  &#xD;&#xA;Was willing to injure; but weapons of victory  &#xD;&#xA;Swords and suchlike he had sworn to dispense with.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why did Beowulf allow his men to carry weapons, while he himself carried none in order to make it a fair fight?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5062" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1120" RevisionGUID="1db26c87-049e-482a-baf2-2f344fd52125" CreationDate="2015-10-01T01:33:41.273" UserId="183" Text="Why did Beowulf's men carry weapons?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5063" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1120" RevisionGUID="1db26c87-049e-482a-baf2-2f344fd52125" CreationDate="2015-10-01T01:33:41.273" UserId="183" Text="|beowulf|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5064" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1121" RevisionGUID="6effb0b3-1f94-4b55-98ab-7d25f445863e" CreationDate="2015-10-01T02:58:44.350" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="The *first* reason is that Beowolf's companions aren't there to fight Grendel, but to lure him into the hall so that Beowolf himself can fight Grendel. Remember that Grendel is a coward (he attacks at night, etc.), and would want to avoid a fight with Beowolf if at all possible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, when Grendel enters the hall, he get's extremely excited when he sees the armed warriors sleeping there, and decides to eat them all up. This will allow Beowolf to surprise him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Strode he angrily; from the eyes of him glimmered  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; A lustre unlovely likest to fire.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; He beheld in the hall the heroes in numbers,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; A circle of kinsmen sleeping together,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **He exults over his supposed prey.**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; A throng of thanemen: then his thoughts were exultant,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; He minded to sunder from each of the thanemen  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The life from his body  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately for him, Beowolf is hiding in the crowd, and is able to catch Grendel by surprise:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Nearer he strode then, the stout-hearted warrior  &#xD;&#xA;Snatched as he slumbered, seizing with hand-grip,  &#xD;&#xA;Forward the foeman foined with his hand;  &#xD;&#xA;Caught he quickly the cunning deviser,  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The text also tells us that it is necessary for Beowolf to surprise Grendel, because the moment Grendel learns of the strength of Beowolf he wants to flee:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Fearful in spirit, faint-mooded waxed he,  &#xD;&#xA;Not off could betake him; death he was pondering,  &#xD;&#xA;Would fly to his covert, seek the devils’ assembly:  &#xD;&#xA;His calling no more was the same he had followed  &#xD;&#xA;Long in his lifetime.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *second* reason is that there is a specific symbolic meaning attached to the idea of fighting Grendel without swords and armor. In this case, using swords and/or armor has an element both of pride/hubris (you believe that superior weapons can overcome a supernatural being who uses none) and an element of cowardice (you are afraid to face Grendel on your own without weapons). The use of weapons by Beowolf's companions serves as a contrast between them and Beowolf himself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(I'm basing my interpretations solely on the text because I don't have time to research how critics or academics interpret this scene. However, I believe that I've done sufficient research to answer the question. All quotations from Beowolf are from the translation cited in the question.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5065" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1122" RevisionGUID="00871c1f-4e3e-4461-8d7d-3ce051607789" CreationDate="2015-10-01T03:43:55.440" UserId="792" Text="just spent a little time on the online etymology dictionary.&#xD;&#xA;www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=holt&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hoard means a safe place to hide.&#xD;&#xA;Mimis' is a god of wisdom and is connected with the world tree and others.&#xD;&#xA;a Holt is a coppice, a stand of trees routinely cut to the ground to spring back anew. This keeps the tree living a long time and ensures that the wood harvested is straight and strong. I teach ecological design and we use coppice. Much of the Norse myths describe management plans for land care." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5069" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1124" RevisionGUID="0c23b5f4-c943-4a22-9a6a-c482f64da2c2" CreationDate="2015-10-02T08:50:40.657" UserId="797" Text="Have a look at this picture:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It represents the Medicine. At the bottom you see a swan and a cock. The cock was sacred to Asclepius and should be one of his symbols here. But what about that swan sitting on an open book? Currently I don't know where this picture came from, but I can ask for information, if it helps. A friend of mine asked me for a suggestion about its iconographic meaning, but I have no idea. &#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/VAdjC.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5070" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1124" RevisionGUID="0c23b5f4-c943-4a22-9a6a-c482f64da2c2" CreationDate="2015-10-02T08:50:40.657" UserId="797" Text="swans and medicine" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5071" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1124" RevisionGUID="0c23b5f4-c943-4a22-9a6a-c482f64da2c2" CreationDate="2015-10-02T08:50:40.657" UserId="797" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5072" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1124" RevisionGUID="ec7b44f7-5b88-4c6a-aab0-97c39deec208" CreationDate="2015-10-02T10:38:02.470" UserId="797" Comment="added 8 characters in body" Text="Please, have a look at this picture:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It represents the Medicine. At the bottom you see a swan and a cock. The cock was sacred to Asclepius and should be one of his symbols here. But what about that swan sitting on an open book? Currently I don't know where this picture came from, but I can ask for information, if it helps. A friend of mine asked me for a suggestion about its iconographic meaning, but I have no idea. &#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/VAdjC.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5074" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1124" RevisionGUID="8eea7696-5345-463e-973a-9351809b5812" CreationDate="2015-10-03T09:32:57.743" UserId="797" Comment="I added a few pieces of information and a photo" Text="Please, have a look at this picture:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It represents the Medicine. At the bottom you see a swan and a cock. The cock was sacred to Asclepius and should be one of his symbols here. But what about that swan sitting on an open book? Currently I don't know where this picture came from, but I can ask for information, if it helps. A friend of mine asked me for a suggestion about its iconographic meaning, but I have no idea. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;edited to add:&#xD;&#xA;It's a fresco of the 18th century, a cycle of paintings actually, on the wall of the former Aula Magna (Great Hall) of the university of [Pavia][2]. Here a view:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I was fancying that maybe in some way the rooster on the closed books represents the practical side of the medicine, the practice, while the swan on the open book the studying, the theory (but it's just a fantasy of mine).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/VAdjC.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Pavia&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/clBLG.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5075" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1124" RevisionGUID="8ead3e0b-ce77-4eb1-a7a6-64d3b6a88af4" CreationDate="2015-10-03T09:39:39.493" UserId="797" Comment="I added a few pieces of information and a photo" Text="Please, have a look at this picture:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It represents the Medicine. At the bottom you see a swan and a cock. The cock was sacred to Asclepius and should be one of his symbols here. But what about that swan sitting on an open book? Currently I don't know where this picture came from, but I can ask for information, if it helps. A friend of mine asked me for a suggestion about its iconographic meaning, but I have no idea. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;edited to add:&#xD;&#xA;It's a fresco of the 18th century, a cycle of paintings actually, on the wall of the former Aula Magna (Great Hall) of the university of [Pavia][2]. Here a view:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I was fancying that maybe in some way the rooster on the closed books represents the practical side of the medicine, the practice, while the swan on the open book the studying, the theory (but it's just a fantasy of mine). Intriguing by the way that first comes the open book, and then the closed ones. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/VAdjC.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Pavia&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/clBLG.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5076" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1125" RevisionGUID="a81762f5-5129-4811-aad3-d1a19649117f" CreationDate="2015-10-03T19:13:12.577" UserId="800" Text="Why is it so popular to say that it was a box when it was actually a jar?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5077" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1125" RevisionGUID="a81762f5-5129-4811-aad3-d1a19649117f" CreationDate="2015-10-03T19:13:12.577" UserId="800" Text="Why is it that we say &quot;Pandora's box&quot; so often even thought it was a jar?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5078" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1125" RevisionGUID="a81762f5-5129-4811-aad3-d1a19649117f" CreationDate="2015-10-03T19:13:12.577" UserId="800" Text="|greek|pandora|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5080" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1126" RevisionGUID="892c733b-d4e2-43ae-aafa-bf2beca0c562" CreationDate="2015-10-05T00:56:29.057" UserId="398" Text="Essentially, the same reason why any other misconception is popular - it rarely gets corrected enough, and the consequences of the misconception are minuscule. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First, it originated as a mistranslation by Erasmus, on account of whom others, especially poets and painters, represented the jar as a box. Once something gets into the popular imagination, it's difficult to leave. Just look at the featherless, fatless dinosaurs in Jurassic World.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apart from the visual aspect, &quot;Pandora's box&quot; has now become a saying, and saying's are notoriously difficult to change, [even when wrong](https://books.google.com/books?id=Lev7YeUk7H0C&amp;pg=PA114#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, though, the type of jar mentioned, a *pithos*, is meant for storage, and is often plugged up with cork and wax. However, the action of snapping the lid quickly doesn't exist for a pithos, so when recalling the memory of the story, the vivid actions tend to override the more inconsequential details, leaving the incorrect details in the retelling. From there, it's a simple snowball effect.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*The Adages of Erasmus*, ed. by William W. Barker, Toronto: [p. xxxix](https://books.google.com/books?id=VmJn6IFMyicC&amp;pg=PR39&amp;dq=erasmus+pithos+pandora&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0CBwQ6AEwAGoVChMI1uHhno2qyAIVyBo-Ch1MwAy_#v=onepage&amp;q=erasmus%20pithos%20pandora&amp;f=false)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora%27s_box) has a few paintings, showing it's early popularity. Interestingly, I remember [Tomb Raider: Cradle of Life](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lara_Croft_Tomb_Raider:_The_Cradle_of_Life) also had Pandora's box (as a wooden jewelry box) in the movie, once again demonstrating the visual aspects." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5081" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="19" RevisionGUID="cee93b4c-c828-436d-917d-43b1a61b09bc" CreationDate="2015-10-05T01:49:49.007" UserId="806" Comment="fixed spellings" Text="A 'god' is synonymous to a 'deity'; the Titans and Titanesses *were* gods, they were members of the second order of divine beings - after Gaia and Uranus, and the other primordial deities. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cronus and his fellow Titans comprised the first Ancient Greek pantheon, which the younger generation of gods, including Zeus, would later usurp, as the Titans usurped the primordial gods before them. (For more information on this concept of change in dominant deities, read up on the theory of [The Golden Age][1], particularly that of Hesiod, who also wrote the only surviving account of the Titans in his [Theogony][2].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for *why* the Titans have their own order name as opposed to Zeus et al who are simply 'gods', there is debate as to the exact etymology of the word 'titan' but this quote from Hesiod's *Theogony* states:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;But these sons whom he begot himself great Heaven used to call Titans （Strainers） in reproach, for he said that they strained  (τιταίνοντας) and did presumptuous a fearful deed, and that vengeance (τίσιν) for it would come afterwards.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Trans. Evelyn-White, [here with side-by-side Greek][3]. &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;However this is not to say Hesiod was correct; he himself was writing long after the supposed Golden Age ended.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Age&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theogony&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D207" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5082" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="19" RevisionGUID="cee93b4c-c828-436d-917d-43b1a61b09bc" CreationDate="2015-10-05T01:49:49.007" Comment="Proposed by 806 approved by 38 edit id of 229" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5084" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1124" RevisionGUID="47fe495c-745e-448d-8a05-bc536e267ebf" CreationDate="2015-10-05T19:17:23.013" UserId="108" Comment="edited title" Text="Do swans have any medicinal-related significance in Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5085" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1127" RevisionGUID="a46a5941-ab4e-4168-851e-ab494ca4681b" CreationDate="2015-10-05T22:08:02.630" UserId="799" Text="      Where did the story/myth of the sword in the stone originate? There have been theories of it originating in Rome and England. It is also said to  be just a story but I think otherwise. There is a theory that the book written by &#xD;&#xA;[T.H. White][1] was written based off the myth. All stories involve Merlin, but not all stories are the same. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some say that it was based in Rome and Merlin first possessed the sword given and made for Caesar Augustus, who ruled in Rome in 27 BC until 14 AD. Passing down the sword to each generation eventually being thrown into a stone that only a true Caesar could pull out. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Others say that It was possessed by King Arthur, A British ruler who came of possession of it as a young boy. Merlin, as well, helping him learn as being a teacher and professor to King Arthur.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where did this &quot;story/myth&quot; come from? Was there more than one sword in the stone? What is the origin? What if it is a myth, can we interpret from this?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sword_in_the_Stone" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5086" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1127" RevisionGUID="a46a5941-ab4e-4168-851e-ab494ca4681b" CreationDate="2015-10-05T22:08:02.630" UserId="799" Text="Where did the myth about the sword in the stone originate?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5087" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1127" RevisionGUID="a46a5941-ab4e-4168-851e-ab494ca4681b" CreationDate="2015-10-05T22:08:02.630" UserId="799" Text="|interpretation|etymology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5088" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1127" RevisionGUID="942be0ed-7828-425b-81c8-45c55f707ea0" CreationDate="2015-10-05T22:11:07.333" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 15 characters in body" Text="Where did the story/myth of the sword in the stone originate? There have been theories of it originating in Rome and England. It is also said to be just a story, but I think otherwise. There is a theory that the book written by &#xD;&#xA;[T.H. White][1] was written based off the myth. All stories involve Merlin, but not all stories are the same. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some say that it was based in Rome and Merlin first possessed the sword given and made for Caesar Augustus, who ruled in Rome in 27 BC until 14 AD. Passing down the sword to each generation eventually being thrown into a stone that only a true Caesar could pull out. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Others say that It was possessed by King Arthur, A British ruler who came of possession of it as a young boy. Merlin, as well, helping him learn as being a teacher and professor to King Arthur.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where did this &quot;story/myth&quot; come from? Was there more than one sword in the stone? What is the origin? What if it is a myth, can we interpret from this?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sword_in_the_Stone" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5089" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1128" RevisionGUID="fc4f9a97-feeb-43fd-b4a2-93614fb36869" CreationDate="2015-10-06T18:26:19.600" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5090" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1129" RevisionGUID="3e45490e-a3e6-4846-98fc-d71d4c5a5014" CreationDate="2015-10-06T18:26:19.600" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5091" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1129" RevisionGUID="317d2ed6-4119-4e17-9341-ff4363f57ac1" CreationDate="2015-10-07T01:33:59.957" UserId="53" Comment="added 98 characters in body" Text="The Dreamtime, or Dreaming.  The Australian Aboriginal understanding of the creation of the world." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5092" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1129" RevisionGUID="317d2ed6-4119-4e17-9341-ff4363f57ac1" CreationDate="2015-10-07T01:33:59.957" Comment="Proposed by 53 approved by 183 edit id of 230" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5093" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1130" RevisionGUID="ad24edaf-ab64-40a7-9165-2b3e354617b7" CreationDate="2015-10-07T16:35:18.847" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="I'm really sorry, but it is not a &quot;theory&quot; that the story of the sword in the stone originated from [Arthurian legend][1]. This is a fact. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. The google document (why didn't you just link to the wikipedia page that the google document is copied from?) is a copy of [the wikipedia page for the movie The Last Legion][2]. This movie is &quot;a 2007 Fantasy film&quot; that combines Arthurian legend with roman history.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. You say that `&quot;Some say that it was based in Rome and Merlin first possessed the sword given and made for Caesar Augustus, who ruled in Rome in 27 BC until 14 AD. Passing down the sword to each generation eventually being thrown into a stone that only a true Caesar could pull out.&quot;` *That is only true in the movie The Last Legion*, which, as stated previously, is a work of fantasy. This is not actual history.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. The legend of the sword in the stone, minus the stuff about Caesar Augustus (which, as stated previously, is from the movie The Last Legion), is from [Arthurian legend][1].  T.H. White is the author of [a children's book][3], which is *also* based on Arthurian legend.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The legend of the sword and the stone is a component of Arthurian legend. Arthurian legend is a collection of old stories about King Arthur. A common feature in many of those stories is the mini-story of the &quot;Sword in the Stone&quot;, which features King Arthur pulling a sword out of a stone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The actual answer to the question:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  The first reference to the sword in the stone is to be found only in the prose redaction of Robert de Boron’s *Merlin*. Of the original poem only some five hundred lines survive.Considering that, and the way scribes could elaborate on their sources, we can not now be sure whether the sword in the stone featured in Robert’s own work or not. Whichever is the case, the work does predate the Vulgate Cycle and the other prose works important to this discussion. Before going on we should therefore be clear just what the sword in the stone was, and was not, as it was first presented.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Toohey, Kathleen, King Arthur's Swords][4])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If anyone is interested, you can [read the Prose Merlin online][5].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have not found any *historical* reference to anyone pulling out a sword from a stone. I think this makes sense, because I imagine that it would be hard to put a sword there in the first place. Sarcasm aside, if you find a historical reference to someone pulling a sword our of something, feel free to let me know in the comments.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot-project&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Legion&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Once_and_Future_King&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.academia.edu/11478175/King_Arthurs_Swords&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://d.lib.rochester.edu/teams/publication/conlee-prose-merlin" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5095" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1132" RevisionGUID="f6a62af9-27da-4f69-a049-2fc3a08a4328" CreationDate="2015-10-07T22:42:08.310" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="I would like to learn more about mythology, but I'm unsure where to start. Could anyone recommend some good websites or books for me to take a look at.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Related meta discussion: http://meta.mythology.stackexchange.com/q/292/62*" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5096" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1132" RevisionGUID="f6a62af9-27da-4f69-a049-2fc3a08a4328" CreationDate="2015-10-07T22:42:08.310" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="What are good sources to introduce people to mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5097" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1132" RevisionGUID="f6a62af9-27da-4f69-a049-2fc3a08a4328" CreationDate="2015-10-07T22:42:08.310" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="|source-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5098" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1133" RevisionGUID="3043106e-5fd2-4004-aad2-c472d734c504" CreationDate="2015-10-07T22:42:08.310" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="Welcome to the site, and welcome to the interesting world of mythology! Here are some resources for you to get started with.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By far the easiest way to learn more about mythology is to go to [your local library][1] and borrow one of their books about mythology. Don't worry about selecting the &quot;right&quot; source; just select a book that looks interesting to you. Remember, you are a beginner, therefore you don't know anything about mythology, and therefore *any* book will teach you something new.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, we recognize that not everyone can or would like to browse a library, and therefore have created a list of both online and offline resources. This list is by no means exhaustive: its purpose is merely to introduce the reader to a variety of sources about mythology. *Please do not be frightened by the amount of sources listed below: just choose a book or website that looks interesting and read it.* These books and websites are all interesting, so don't worry about choosing the &quot;wrong&quot; one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note to the reader: online sources have an `online` marker next to them. Offline sources link to the corresponding page on [worldcat.org][2], which will tell you whether the book is located in a library near you.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# General Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Collections of myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Creation Stories from around the World][3] -- `online` collection of creation myths from various cultures.&#xD;&#xA;2. [Sacred-Texts.com][4] -- an `online` database of translated myths and other sacred texts.&#xD;&#xA;3. [World Mythology][5]&#xD;&#xA;4. [Oxford Companion to World Mythology][6]&#xD;&#xA;5. [Handbook of World MYthology][7] &#xD;&#xA;6. [Gods, Heroes, and Monsters: A Sourcebook of Greek, Roman, and Near Eastern Myths in Translation][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Mythical Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Encyclopedia Mythica][9] -- an `online` encyclopedia about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The New York Public Library's Recommended Mythology Links][10] -- an `online` collection of high-quality websites about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Mesopotamian Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Sumerian Mythology: A Study of Spiritual and Literary Achievement in the Third Millennium B.C.][11]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Greek Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Hesiod's [Theogony](http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm) -- an `online` translation of the Greek creation myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias and Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Timothy Gantz, *Early Greek Myth*&#xD;&#xA;1. [Theoi][12] -- an `online` encyclopedia of Greek gods, creatures, and myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Celtic Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Four Branches of the Mabinogi][13]: an `online` translation of a classic collection of [tag:welsh] myths.&#xD;&#xA;2. [CELT][14]-- a fantastic `online` database of [tag:irish] literature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Celtic Heritage][15]&#xD;&#xA;2. [The Camelot Project][16] -- an `online` encyclopedia of Arthurian myth and legend.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Norse Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Norse Mythology for Smart People][17] -- an `online` encyclopedia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Miscellaneous Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Blogs about Mythology***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Mythology Matters][18] -- an `online` blog about mythology written by one of our own contributors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.worldcat.org/libraries&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.worldcat.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/CS/CSIndex.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/world-mythology/oclc/27678612&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/oxford-companion-to-world-mythology/oclc/60492027&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/handbook-of-world-mythology/oclc/61151643&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/gods-heroes-and-monsters-a-sourcebook-of-greek-roman-and-near-eastern-myths-in-translation/oclc/842323102&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.pantheon.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.nypl.org/weblinks/1279&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/sumerian-mythology-a-study-of-spiritual-and-literary-achievement-in-the-third-millennium-bc/oclc/322805&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.theoi.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://mabinogi.net/translations.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: http://www.ucc.ie/celt/&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/celtic-heritage-ancient-tradition-in-ireland-and-wales/oclc/53330832&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: http://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot-project&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: http://norse-mythology.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://mythologymatters.wordpress.com/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5099" PostHistoryTypeId="16" PostId="1133" RevisionGUID="81e277af-a8c4-4ff8-b409-7f2c63a0d440" CreationDate="2015-10-07T22:42:08.310" UserDisplayName="user62" />
  <row Id="5100" PostHistoryTypeId="16" PostId="1132" RevisionGUID="bb445957-ebcc-490e-a761-edfb0aec4571" CreationDate="2015-10-07T22:48:28.580" UserId="183" />
  <row Id="5101" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1133" RevisionGUID="bec02bbb-24b7-4b8d-a5ba-53f6871832dc" CreationDate="2015-10-07T22:50:01.073" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="changed order so more readable" Text="Welcome to the site, and welcome to the interesting world of mythology! Here are some resources for you to get started with.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By far the easiest way to learn more about mythology is to go to [your local library][1] and borrow one of their books about mythology. Don't worry about selecting the &quot;right&quot; source; just select a book that looks interesting to you. Remember, you are a beginner, therefore you don't know anything about mythology, and therefore *any* book will teach you something new.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, we recognize that not everyone can or would like to browse a library, and therefore have created a list of both online and offline resources. This list is by no means exhaustive: its purpose is merely to introduce the reader to a variety of sources about mythology. *Please do not be frightened by the amount of sources listed below: just choose a book or website that looks interesting and read it.* These books and websites are all interesting, so don't worry about choosing the &quot;wrong&quot; one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note to the reader: online sources have an `online` marker next to them. Offline sources link to the corresponding page on [worldcat.org][2], which will tell you whether the book is located in a library near you.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# General Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Collections of myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Creation Stories from around the World][3] -- `online` collection of creation myths from various cultures.&#xD;&#xA;2. [Sacred-Texts.com][4] -- an `online` database of translated myths and other sacred texts.&#xD;&#xA;3. [World Mythology][5]&#xD;&#xA;4. [Oxford Companion to World Mythology][6]&#xD;&#xA;5. [Handbook of World MYthology][7] &#xD;&#xA;6. [Gods, Heroes, and Monsters: A Sourcebook of Greek, Roman, and Near Eastern Myths in Translation][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Mythical Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Encyclopedia Mythica][9] -- an `online` encyclopedia about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Mesopotamian Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Sumerian Mythology: A Study of Spiritual and Literary Achievement in the Third Millennium B.C.][11]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Greek Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Hesiod's [Theogony](http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm) -- an `online` translation of the Greek creation myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias and Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Timothy Gantz, *Early Greek Myth*&#xD;&#xA;1. [Theoi][12] -- an `online` encyclopedia of Greek gods, creatures, and myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Celtic Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Four Branches of the Mabinogi][13]: an `online` translation of a classic collection of [tag:welsh] myths.&#xD;&#xA;2. [CELT][14]-- a fantastic `online` database of [tag:irish] literature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Celtic Heritage][15]&#xD;&#xA;2. [The Camelot Project][16] -- an `online` encyclopedia of Arthurian myth and legend.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Norse Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Norse Mythology for Smart People][17] -- an `online` encyclopedia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Miscellaneous Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Blogs about Mythology***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Mythology Matters][18] -- an `online` blog about mythology written by one of our own contributors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The New York Public Library's Recommended Mythology Links][10] -- an `online` collection of high-quality websites about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.worldcat.org/libraries&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.worldcat.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/CS/CSIndex.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/world-mythology/oclc/27678612&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/oxford-companion-to-world-mythology/oclc/60492027&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/handbook-of-world-mythology/oclc/61151643&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/gods-heroes-and-monsters-a-sourcebook-of-greek-roman-and-near-eastern-myths-in-translation/oclc/842323102&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.pantheon.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.nypl.org/weblinks/1279&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/sumerian-mythology-a-study-of-spiritual-and-literary-achievement-in-the-third-millennium-bc/oclc/322805&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.theoi.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://mabinogi.net/translations.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: http://www.ucc.ie/celt/&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/celtic-heritage-ancient-tradition-in-ireland-and-wales/oclc/53330832&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: http://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot-project&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: http://norse-mythology.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://mythologymatters.wordpress.com/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5102" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1133" RevisionGUID="ad6b15d2-90be-4437-8a40-4d4faf92c263" CreationDate="2015-10-07T22:58:09.090" UserId="148" Comment="edited body" Text="Welcome to the site, and welcome to the interesting world of mythology! Here are some resources for you to get started with.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By far the easiest way to learn more about mythology is to go to [your local library][1] and borrow one of their books about mythology. Don't worry about selecting the &quot;right&quot; source; just select a book that looks interesting to you. Remember, you are a beginner, therefore you don't know anything about mythology, and therefore *any* book will teach you something new.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, we recognize that not everyone can or would like to browse a library, and therefore have created a list of both online and offline resources. This list is by no means exhaustive: its purpose is merely to introduce the reader to a variety of sources about mythology. *Please do not be frightened by the amount of sources listed below: just choose a book or website that looks interesting and read it.* These books and websites are all interesting, so don't worry about choosing the &quot;wrong&quot; one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note to the reader: online sources have an *online* marker next to them. Offline sources link to the corresponding page on [worldcat.org][2], which will tell you whether the book is located in a library near you.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# General Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Collections of myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Creation Stories from around the World][3] -- *online* collection of creation myths from various cultures.&#xD;&#xA;2. [Sacred-Texts.com][4] -- an *online* database of translated myths and other sacred texts.&#xD;&#xA;3. [World Mythology][5]&#xD;&#xA;4. [Oxford Companion to World Mythology][6]&#xD;&#xA;5. [Handbook of World MYthology][7] &#xD;&#xA;6. [Gods, Heroes, and Monsters: A Sourcebook of Greek, Roman, and Near Eastern Myths in Translation][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Mythical Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Encyclopedia Mythica][9] -- an *online* encyclopedia about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Mesopotamian Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Sumerian Mythology: A Study of Spiritual and Literary Achievement in the Third Millennium B.C.][11]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Greek Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Hesiod's [Theogony](http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm) -- an *online* translation of the Greek creation myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias and Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Timothy Gantz, *Early Greek Myth*&#xD;&#xA;1. [Theoi][12] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Greek gods, creatures, and myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Celtic Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Four Branches of the Mabinogi][13]: an *online* translation of a classic collection of [tag:welsh] myths.&#xD;&#xA;2. [CELT][14]-- a fantastic *online* database of [tag:irish] literature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Celtic Heritage][15]&#xD;&#xA;2. [The Camelot Project][16] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Arthurian myth and legend.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Norse Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Norse Mythology for Smart People][17] -- an *online* encyclopedia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Miscellaneous Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Blogs about Mythology***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Mythology Matters][18] -- an *online* blog about mythology written by one of our own contributors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The New York Public Library's Recommended Mythology Links][10] -- an `online` collection of high-quality websites about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.worldcat.org/libraries&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.worldcat.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/CS/CSIndex.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/world-mythology/oclc/27678612&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/oxford-companion-to-world-mythology/oclc/60492027&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/handbook-of-world-mythology/oclc/61151643&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/gods-heroes-and-monsters-a-sourcebook-of-greek-roman-and-near-eastern-myths-in-translation/oclc/842323102&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.pantheon.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.nypl.org/weblinks/1279&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/sumerian-mythology-a-study-of-spiritual-and-literary-achievement-in-the-third-millennium-bc/oclc/322805&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.theoi.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://mabinogi.net/translations.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: http://www.ucc.ie/celt/&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/celtic-heritage-ancient-tradition-in-ireland-and-wales/oclc/53330832&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: http://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot-project&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: http://norse-mythology.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://mythologymatters.wordpress.com/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5103" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1133" RevisionGUID="74c11220-dc58-47fa-9423-57ba42e70efa" CreationDate="2015-10-07T23:04:49.560" UserId="183" Comment="Fixed minor typo." Text="Welcome to the site, and welcome to the interesting world of mythology! Here are some resources for you to get started with.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By far the easiest way to learn more about mythology is to go to [your local library][1] and borrow one of their books about mythology. Don't worry about selecting the &quot;right&quot; source; just select a book that looks interesting to you. Remember, you are a beginner, therefore you don't know anything about mythology, and therefore *any* book will teach you something new.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, we recognize that not everyone can or would like to browse a library, and therefore have created a list of both online and offline resources. This list is by no means exhaustive: its purpose is merely to introduce the reader to a variety of sources about mythology. *Please do not be frightened by the amount of sources listed below: just choose a book or website that looks interesting and read it.* These books and websites are all interesting, so don't worry about choosing the &quot;wrong&quot; one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note to the reader: online sources have an *online* marker next to them. Offline sources link to the corresponding page on [worldcat.org][2], which will tell you whether the book is located in a library near you.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# General Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Collections of myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Creation Stories from around the World][3] -- *online* collection of creation myths from various cultures.&#xD;&#xA;2. [Sacred-Texts.com][4] -- an *online* database of translated myths and other sacred texts.&#xD;&#xA;3. [World Mythology][5]&#xD;&#xA;4. [Oxford Companion to World Mythology][6]&#xD;&#xA;5. [Handbook of World Mythology][7] &#xD;&#xA;6. [Gods, Heroes, and Monsters: A Sourcebook of Greek, Roman, and Near Eastern Myths in Translation][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Mythical Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Encyclopedia Mythica][9] -- an *online* encyclopedia about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Mesopotamian Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Sumerian Mythology: A Study of Spiritual and Literary Achievement in the Third Millennium B.C.][11]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Greek Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Hesiod's [Theogony](http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm) -- an *online* translation of the Greek creation myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias and Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Timothy Gantz, *Early Greek Myth*&#xD;&#xA;1. [Theoi][12] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Greek gods, creatures, and myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Celtic Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Four Branches of the Mabinogi][13]: an *online* translation of a classic collection of [tag:welsh] myths.&#xD;&#xA;2. [CELT][14]-- a fantastic *online* database of [tag:irish] literature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Celtic Heritage][15]&#xD;&#xA;2. [The Camelot Project][16] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Arthurian myth and legend.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Norse Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Norse Mythology for Smart People][17] -- an *online* encyclopedia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Miscellaneous Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Blogs about Mythology***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Mythology Matters][18] -- an *online* blog about mythology written by one of our own contributors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The New York Public Library's Recommended Mythology Links][10] -- an `online` collection of high-quality websites about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.worldcat.org/libraries&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.worldcat.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/CS/CSIndex.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/world-mythology/oclc/27678612&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/oxford-companion-to-world-mythology/oclc/60492027&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/handbook-of-world-mythology/oclc/61151643&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/gods-heroes-and-monsters-a-sourcebook-of-greek-roman-and-near-eastern-myths-in-translation/oclc/842323102&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.pantheon.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.nypl.org/weblinks/1279&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/sumerian-mythology-a-study-of-spiritual-and-literary-achievement-in-the-third-millennium-bc/oclc/322805&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.theoi.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://mabinogi.net/translations.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: http://www.ucc.ie/celt/&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/celtic-heritage-ancient-tradition-in-ireland-and-wales/oclc/53330832&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: http://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot-project&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: http://norse-mythology.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://mythologymatters.wordpress.com/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5106" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1135" RevisionGUID="7ef6ffdb-4cc0-4ac8-bfcd-cc0384f79992" CreationDate="2015-10-08T06:01:45.960" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="This might be a stupid question, but I was hoping that someone could explain the role forests played in Mesopotamia at the time The Epic of Gilgamesh was written. I'm asking because one of the major quests that Gilgamesh attempts is to go to a Cedar Forest, and after he kills the forest guardian he immediately starts cutting down trees:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;he  went  down  to  trample  the forest.  &#xD;&#xA;He  discovered  the  secret  abode  of  the  gods,  &#xD;&#xA;Gilgamesh felling  the  trees,  Enkidu  choosing  the  timber.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([The Epic of Gilgamesh][1])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What confuses me about the whole chain of events is that gathering timber is portrayed as a heroic quest. This made me ask myself: is this because timber was a rare commodity in the time and place the epic was composed? What role did timber play in society.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The inspiration for this question was that I read [the &quot;new&quot; (as in 2014) fragment][2] earlier today, which contained some interesting passages about the forest:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They were gazing at the Cedar Mountain,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; dwelling of gods, throne-dais of goddesses:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  As the cedar [cast] its shadow,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  [terror] fell on Gilgameš.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  [Stiffness took] a grip of his arms,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  and feebleness beset his legs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't think that those new passages would change our interpretation of the story, but I included them anyway to persuade people to take a look at the new fragment if you haven't already.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://web.archive.org/web/20150906105733/http://www.cidmod.org/sidurisadvice/Gilgamesh.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://eprints.soas.ac.uk/18512/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5107" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1135" RevisionGUID="7ef6ffdb-4cc0-4ac8-bfcd-cc0384f79992" CreationDate="2015-10-08T06:01:45.960" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="Forests and The Epic of Gilgamesh" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5108" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1135" RevisionGUID="7ef6ffdb-4cc0-4ac8-bfcd-cc0384f79992" CreationDate="2015-10-08T06:01:45.960" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="|gilgamesh|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5109" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1133" RevisionGUID="80253688-06bc-4841-823c-cad3a5eb12a3" CreationDate="2015-10-08T10:07:58.883" UserId="201" Comment="added 342 characters in body" Text="Welcome to the site, and welcome to the interesting world of mythology! Here are some resources for you to get started with.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By far the easiest way to learn more about mythology is to go to [your local library][1] and borrow one of their books about mythology. Don't worry about selecting the &quot;right&quot; source; just select a book that looks interesting to you. Remember, you are a beginner, therefore you don't know anything about mythology, and therefore *any* book will teach you something new.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, we recognize that not everyone can or would like to browse a library, and therefore have created a list of both online and offline resources. This list is by no means exhaustive: its purpose is merely to introduce the reader to a variety of sources about mythology. *Please do not be frightened by the amount of sources listed below: just choose a book or website that looks interesting and read it.* These books and websites are all interesting, so don't worry about choosing the &quot;wrong&quot; one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note to the reader: online sources have an *online* marker next to them. Offline sources link to the corresponding page on [worldcat.org][2], which will tell you whether the book is located in a library near you.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# General Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Collections of myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Creation Stories from around the World][3] -- *online* collection of creation myths from various cultures.&#xD;&#xA;2. [Sacred-Texts.com][4] -- an *online* database of translated myths and other sacred texts.&#xD;&#xA;3. [World Mythology][5]&#xD;&#xA;4. [Oxford Companion to World Mythology][6]&#xD;&#xA;5. [Handbook of World Mythology][7] &#xD;&#xA;6. [Gods, Heroes, and Monsters: A Sourcebook of Greek, Roman, and Near Eastern Myths in Translation][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Mythical Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Encyclopedia Mythica][9] -- an *online* encyclopedia about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Mesopotamian Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Sumerian Mythology: A Study of Spiritual and Literary Achievement in the Third Millennium B.C.][11]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Greek Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Hesiod's [Theogony](http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm) -- an *online* translation of the Greek creation myth.&#xD;&#xA;2. Ovid's &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.worldcat.org/title/metamorphoses-of-ovid/oclc/17197438&quot;&gt;Metamorphoses&lt;/a&gt;, plus a downloadable version &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.poetryintranslation.com/klineasovid.htm&quot;&gt;here.&lt;/a&gt; A loosely-structured &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphoses&quot;&gt;narrative poem&lt;/a&gt; covering many of the classic Greek myths. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias and Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Timothy Gantz, *Early Greek Myth*&#xD;&#xA;1. [Theoi][12] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Greek gods, creatures, and myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Celtic Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Four Branches of the Mabinogi][13]: an *online* translation of a classic collection of [tag:welsh] myths.&#xD;&#xA;2. [CELT][14]-- a fantastic *online* database of [tag:irish] literature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Celtic Heritage][15]&#xD;&#xA;2. [The Camelot Project][16] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Arthurian myth and legend.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Norse Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Norse Mythology for Smart People][17] -- an *online* encyclopedia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Miscellaneous Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Blogs about Mythology***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Mythology Matters][18] -- an *online* blog about mythology written by one of our own contributors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The New York Public Library's Recommended Mythology Links][10] -- an `online` collection of high-quality websites about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.worldcat.org/libraries&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.worldcat.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/CS/CSIndex.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/world-mythology/oclc/27678612&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/oxford-companion-to-world-mythology/oclc/60492027&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/handbook-of-world-mythology/oclc/61151643&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/gods-heroes-and-monsters-a-sourcebook-of-greek-roman-and-near-eastern-myths-in-translation/oclc/842323102&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.pantheon.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.nypl.org/weblinks/1279&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/sumerian-mythology-a-study-of-spiritual-and-literary-achievement-in-the-third-millennium-bc/oclc/322805&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.theoi.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://mabinogi.net/translations.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: http://www.ucc.ie/celt/&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/celtic-heritage-ancient-tradition-in-ireland-and-wales/oclc/53330832&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: http://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot-project&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: http://norse-mythology.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://mythologymatters.wordpress.com/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5110" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1135" RevisionGUID="b281f03e-e36c-42a8-aa51-2666df68db71" CreationDate="2015-10-08T13:51:36.823" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="the fact that someone goes on a quest for something /= that thing is &quot;rare&quot; -- in native america, many myths feature a quest for corn" Text="This might be a stupid question, but I was hoping that someone could explain the role forests played in Mesopotamia at the time The Epic of Gilgamesh was written. I'm asking because one of the major quests that Gilgamesh attempts is to go to a Cedar Forest, and after he kills the forest guardian he immediately starts cutting down trees:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;he  went  down  to  trample  the forest.  &#xD;&#xA;He  discovered  the  secret  abode  of  the  gods,  &#xD;&#xA;Gilgamesh felling  the  trees,  Enkidu  choosing  the  timber.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([The Epic of Gilgamesh][1])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What confuses me about the whole chain of events is that gathering timber is portrayed as a heroic quest. This made me ask myself: is this because timber was a valuable commodity in the time and place the epic was composed? What role did timber play in society.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The inspiration for this question was that I read [the &quot;new&quot; (as in 2014) fragment][2] earlier today, which contained some interesting passages about the forest:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They were gazing at the Cedar Mountain,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; dwelling of gods, throne-dais of goddesses:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  As the cedar [cast] its shadow,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  [terror] fell on Gilgameš.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  [Stiffness took] a grip of his arms,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  and feebleness beset his legs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't think that those new passages would change our interpretation of the story, but I included them anyway to persuade people to take a look at the new fragment if you haven't already.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://web.archive.org/web/20150906105733/http://www.cidmod.org/sidurisadvice/Gilgamesh.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://eprints.soas.ac.uk/18512/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5111" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1136" RevisionGUID="c6f11ab6-0020-4816-a10e-3cb21da95143" CreationDate="2015-10-08T14:10:53.523" UserId="398" Text="This is not at all a stupid question! In fact, scholars have a couple theories on this. According to the standard interpretation, the cedar forests refer to the famous cedar forests of Lebanon and Syria, which were highly sought after by kings as far back as Sargon. [Sargon of Akkad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sargon_of_Akkad), based in Akkad in now northern Iraq, would boast of his conquests of the far reaches of Mesopotamia, including the cedar forests:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He made them cross the Amanus; he made his troops cross the Amanus. He reached the cedar forest. Amidst its din(?) he bowed down and readied his weapons. He offered a sacrifice, made obeisance, spoke distinctly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(&quot;Sargon in Foreign Lands,&quot; vv. 11'-14')&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This particular text comes from an epic of Sargon, although the fragmentary nature of it makes it difficult to know the full extent of the composition. What we do know is that there are many parallels with the Gilgamesh story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Sargonic dynasty (ca. 2300-2150) was the first real empire (now often called the Akkadian empire), and Sargon's and his descedants' rule, though they were of a Semitic-speaking people (usually called Assyrian or Babylonian based off the primacy of those two cities in latter times), included all of Sumer, a different people with a different language. After its collapse, the city of Ur took over the empire (although lacked its far reaches), which is now known as the Ur III dynasty. Ur was not a Semitic city, but a Sumerian one, and so naturally there was some tension in recognizing Sargon's deeds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the results of this tension appears to be the ascription of deeds of Sargon to Gilgamesh. Since Sargon went to Dilmun, Gilgamesh went to Dilmun; since Sargon conquered the area containing cedar forests, so too did Gilgamesh go to the Cedar Forest and defeat Humbaba.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The precise relationship between the two is hypothetical. One hypothesis is that the journey to Cedar Forests was only created in the Ur III period. The epic would act as a counter of sorts to the Akkadian propaganda that preceded it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An alternative, one favored by Tigay (p. 78), is that there was always a journey to the Cedar Forest, but only with the Akkadian period did it acquire a precise location corresponding with Sargon's military activity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hansman 1976. &quot;Gilgamesh, Humbaba and the Land of the Erin-Trees.&quot; *Iraq* 38.1: 23–35.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Horowitz 1988. *Mesopotamian Cosmic Geography*. Eisenbrauns.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kramer 1963. *The Sumerians: Their History, Culture and Character.* The University of Chicago Press.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Noegel 2008. &quot;Mesopotamian Epic,&quot; in Foley ed. *A Companion to Ancient Epic*. Blackwell Publishing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tigay 1982. *The Evolution of the Gilgamesh Epic*. University of Pennsylvania Press.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Westenholz 1997. *Legends of the Kings of Akkade: The Texts*. Eisenbrauns." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5112" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1133" RevisionGUID="da19aa24-0c0f-4be0-901d-506e7564f929" CreationDate="2015-10-08T14:15:26.117" UserId="201" Comment="added 929 characters in body" Text="Welcome to the site, and welcome to the interesting world of mythology! Here are some resources for you to get started with.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By far the easiest way to learn more about mythology is to go to [your local library][1] and borrow one of their books about mythology. Don't worry about selecting the &quot;right&quot; source; just select a book that looks interesting to you. Remember, you are a beginner, therefore you don't know anything about mythology, and therefore *any* book will teach you something new.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, we recognize that not everyone can or would like to browse a library, and therefore have created a list of both online and offline resources. This list is by no means exhaustive: its purpose is merely to introduce the reader to a variety of sources about mythology. *Please do not be frightened by the amount of sources listed below: just choose a book or website that looks interesting and read it.* These books and websites are all interesting, so don't worry about choosing the &quot;wrong&quot; one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note to the reader: online sources have an *online* marker next to them. Offline sources link to the corresponding page on [worldcat.org][2], which will tell you whether the book is located in a library near you.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# General Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Collections of myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Creation Stories from around the World][3] -- *online* collection of creation myths from various cultures.&#xD;&#xA;2. [Sacred-Texts.com][4] -- an *online* database of translated myths and other sacred texts.&#xD;&#xA;3. [World Mythology][5]&#xD;&#xA;4. [Oxford Companion to World Mythology][6]&#xD;&#xA;5. [Handbook of World Mythology][7] &#xD;&#xA;6. [Gods, Heroes, and Monsters: A Sourcebook of Greek, Roman, and Near Eastern Myths in Translation][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Mythical Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Encyclopedia Mythica][9] -- an *online* encyclopedia about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Mesopotamian Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Sumerian Mythology: A Study of Spiritual and Literary Achievement in the Third Millennium B.C.][10]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Greek Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Hesiod's [Theogony](http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm) -- an *online* translation of the Greek creation myth.&#xD;&#xA;2. Ovid's &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.worldcat.org/title/metamorphoses-of-ovid/oclc/17197438&quot;&gt;Metamorphoses&lt;/a&gt;, plus a downloadable version &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.poetryintranslation.com/klineasovid.htm&quot;&gt;here.&lt;/a&gt; A loosely-structured &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphoses&quot;&gt;narrative poem&lt;/a&gt; covering many of the classic Greek myths. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias and Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Timothy Gantz, *Early Greek Myth*&#xD;&#xA;1. [Theoi][11] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Greek gods, creatures, and myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Celtic Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Four Branches of the Mabinogi][12]: an *online* translation of a classic collection of [tag:welsh] myths.&#xD;&#xA;2. [CELT][13]-- a fantastic *online* database of [tag:irish] literature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Celtic Heritage][14]&#xD;&#xA;2. [The Camelot Project][15] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Arthurian myth and legend.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Norse Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Norse Mythology for Smart People][16] -- an *online* encyclopedia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Miscellaneous Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Blogs about Mythology***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Mythology Matters][17] -- an *online* blog about mythology written by one of our own contributors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The New York Public Library's Recommended Mythology Links][18] -- an `online` collection of high-quality websites about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Easier Texts&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***For younger readers and those who’d like a more lively presentation before tackling the originals.***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[D’Aulaires’ Book of Greek Myths][19]: illustrated, readable, and blunt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[D’Aulaires’ Book of Norse Myths][20]: illustrated, readable, and blunt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Greek Gods][21], by Evslin, Evslin, and Hoopes. Not a long book but easy to read, and the one which got me hooked on mythology in elementary school.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Adventures of Ulysses][22], Bernard Evslin: a highly readable and entertaining version of *The Odyssey.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I recommend anything by the D’Aulaires and the Evslins in general.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.worldcat.org/libraries&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.worldcat.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/CS/CSIndex.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/world-mythology/oclc/27678612&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/oxford-companion-to-world-mythology/oclc/60492027&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/handbook-of-world-mythology/oclc/61151643&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/gods-heroes-and-monsters-a-sourcebook-of-greek-roman-and-near-eastern-myths-in-translation/oclc/842323102&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.pantheon.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/sumerian-mythology-a-study-of-spiritual-and-literary-achievement-in-the-third-millennium-bc/oclc/322805&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.theoi.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://mabinogi.net/translations.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://www.ucc.ie/celt/&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/celtic-heritage-ancient-tradition-in-ireland-and-wales/oclc/53330832&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: http://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot-project&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: http://norse-mythology.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://mythologymatters.wordpress.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: http://www.nypl.org/weblinks/1279&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/daulaires-book-of-greek-myths/oclc/779214769&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/daulaires-book-of-norse-myths/oclc/57311921&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/greek-gods/oclc/23595215&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/adventures-of-ulysses/oclc/22418476" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5113" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1133" RevisionGUID="798ed047-8e25-4aa5-83dc-65dd8ff65f64" CreationDate="2015-10-08T14:23:59.803" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="moved section so it's more prominant / formatting" Text="Welcome to the site, and welcome to the interesting world of mythology! Here are some resources for you to get started with.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By far the easiest way to learn more about mythology is to go to [your local library][1] and borrow one of their books about mythology. Don't worry about selecting the &quot;right&quot; source; just select a book that looks interesting to you. Remember, you are a beginner, therefore you don't know anything about mythology, and therefore *any* book will teach you something new.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, we recognize that not everyone can or would like to browse a library, and therefore have created a list of both online and offline resources. This list is by no means exhaustive: its purpose is merely to introduce the reader to a variety of sources about mythology. *Please do not be frightened by the amount of sources listed below: just choose a book or website that looks interesting and read it.* These books and websites are all interesting, so don't worry about choosing the &quot;wrong&quot; one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note to the reader: online sources have an *online* marker next to them. Offline sources link to the corresponding page on [worldcat.org][2], which will tell you whether the book is located in a library near you.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# General Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Collections of myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Creation Stories from around the World][3] -- *online* collection of creation myths from various cultures.&#xD;&#xA;2. [Sacred-Texts.com][4] -- an *online* database of translated myths and other sacred texts.&#xD;&#xA;3. [World Mythology][5]&#xD;&#xA;4. [Oxford Companion to World Mythology][6]&#xD;&#xA;5. [Handbook of World Mythology][7] &#xD;&#xA;6. [Gods, Heroes, and Monsters: A Sourcebook of Greek, Roman, and Near Eastern Myths in Translation][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Mythical Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Encyclopedia Mythica][9] -- an *online* encyclopedia about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Easier Texts&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For younger readers and those who’d like a more lively presentation before tackling the originals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [D’Aulaires’ Book of Greek Myths][19]: illustrated, readable, and blunt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. [D’Aulaires’ Book of Norse Myths][20]: illustrated, readable, and blunt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. [The Greek Gods][21], by Evslin, Evslin, and Hoopes. Not a long book but easy to read, and the one which got me hooked on mythology in elementary school.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. [The Adventures of Ulysses][22], Bernard Evslin: a highly readable and entertaining version of *The Odyssey.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I recommend anything by the D’Aulaires and the Evslins in general.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Mesopotamian Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Sumerian Mythology: A Study of Spiritual and Literary Achievement in the Third Millennium B.C.][10]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Greek Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Hesiod's [Theogony](http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm) -- an *online* translation of the Greek creation myth.&#xD;&#xA;2. Ovid's &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.worldcat.org/title/metamorphoses-of-ovid/oclc/17197438&quot;&gt;Metamorphoses&lt;/a&gt;, plus a downloadable version &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.poetryintranslation.com/klineasovid.htm&quot;&gt;here.&lt;/a&gt; A loosely-structured &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphoses&quot;&gt;narrative poem&lt;/a&gt; covering many of the classic Greek myths. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias and Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Timothy Gantz, *Early Greek Myth*&#xD;&#xA;1. [Theoi][11] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Greek gods, creatures, and myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Celtic Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Four Branches of the Mabinogi][12]: an *online* translation of a classic collection of [tag:welsh] myths.&#xD;&#xA;2. [CELT][13]-- a fantastic *online* database of [tag:irish] literature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Celtic Heritage][14]&#xD;&#xA;2. [The Camelot Project][15] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Arthurian myth and legend.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Norse Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Norse Mythology for Smart People][16] -- an *online* encyclopedia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Miscellaneous Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Blogs about Mythology***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Mythology Matters][17] -- an *online* blog about mythology written by one of our own contributors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The New York Public Library's Recommended Mythology Links][18] -- an `online` collection of high-quality websites about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.worldcat.org/libraries&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.worldcat.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/CS/CSIndex.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/world-mythology/oclc/27678612&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/oxford-companion-to-world-mythology/oclc/60492027&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/handbook-of-world-mythology/oclc/61151643&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/gods-heroes-and-monsters-a-sourcebook-of-greek-roman-and-near-eastern-myths-in-translation/oclc/842323102&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.pantheon.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/sumerian-mythology-a-study-of-spiritual-and-literary-achievement-in-the-third-millennium-bc/oclc/322805&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.theoi.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://mabinogi.net/translations.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://www.ucc.ie/celt/&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/celtic-heritage-ancient-tradition-in-ireland-and-wales/oclc/53330832&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: http://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot-project&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: http://norse-mythology.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://mythologymatters.wordpress.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: http://www.nypl.org/weblinks/1279&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/daulaires-book-of-greek-myths/oclc/779214769&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/daulaires-book-of-norse-myths/oclc/57311921&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/greek-gods/oclc/23595215&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/adventures-of-ulysses/oclc/22418476" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5115" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1138" RevisionGUID="2c0403ac-be0e-4eab-9063-beaba3df095f" CreationDate="2015-10-08T20:12:57.230" UserId="565" Text="C.M. Weiner has provided an admirable answer.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The difference in volume between a *pithos* and a *pyxis* may also reflect an ideological difference.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notorious for their misogyny, archaic Greeks viewed women as much more pernicious than Renaissance humanists did.  As a pyxis is less than capacious (of evil), so too is womankind according to this Christian intellectual." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5116" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1133" RevisionGUID="0943257f-74d4-427d-a315-7aeabba2358d" CreationDate="2015-10-09T02:09:32.547" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 290 characters in body" Text="Welcome to the site, and welcome to the interesting world of mythology! Here are some resources for you to get started with.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By far the easiest way to learn more about mythology is to go to [your local library][1] and borrow one of their books about mythology. Don't worry about selecting the &quot;right&quot; source; just select a book that looks interesting to you. Remember, you are a beginner, therefore you don't know anything about mythology, and therefore *any* book will teach you something new.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, we recognize that not everyone can or would like to browse a library, and therefore have created a list of both online and offline resources. This list is by no means exhaustive: its purpose is merely to introduce the reader to a variety of sources about mythology. *Please do not be frightened by the amount of sources listed below: just choose a book or website that looks interesting and read it.* These books and websites are all interesting, so don't worry about choosing the &quot;wrong&quot; one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note to the reader: online sources have an *online* marker next to them. Offline sources link to the corresponding page on [worldcat.org][2], which will tell you whether the book is located in a library near you.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# General Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Collections of myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Creation Stories from around the World][3] -- *online* collection of creation myths from various cultures.&#xD;&#xA;2. [Sacred-Texts.com][4] -- an *online* database of translated myths and other sacred texts.&#xD;&#xA;3. [World Mythology][5]&#xD;&#xA;4. [Oxford Companion to World Mythology][6]&#xD;&#xA;5. [Handbook of World Mythology][7] &#xD;&#xA;6. [Gods, Heroes, and Monsters: A Sourcebook of Greek, Roman, and Near Eastern Myths in Translation][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Mythical Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Encyclopedia Mythica][9] -- an *online* encyclopedia about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Easier Texts&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For younger readers and those who’d like a more lively presentation before tackling the originals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [D’Aulaires’ Book of Greek Myths][10]: illustrated, readable, and blunt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. [D’Aulaires’ Book of Norse Myths][11]: illustrated, readable, and blunt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. [The Greek Gods][12], by Evslin, Evslin, and Hoopes. Not a long book but easy to read, and the one which got me hooked on mythology in elementary school.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. [The Adventures of Ulysses][13], Bernard Evslin: a highly readable and entertaining version of *The Odyssey.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I recommend anything by the D’Aulaires and the Evslins in general.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Mesopotamian Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Sumerian Mythology: A Study of Spiritual and Literary Achievement in the Third Millennium B.C.][14]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Greek Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Hesiod's [Theogony](http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm) -- an *online* translation of the Greek creation myth.&#xD;&#xA;2. Ovid's &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.worldcat.org/title/metamorphoses-of-ovid/oclc/17197438&quot;&gt;Metamorphoses&lt;/a&gt;, plus a downloadable version &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.poetryintranslation.com/klineasovid.htm&quot;&gt;here.&lt;/a&gt; A loosely-structured &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphoses&quot;&gt;narrative poem&lt;/a&gt; covering many of the classic Greek myths. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias and Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Timothy Gantz, *Early Greek Myth*&#xD;&#xA;1. [Theoi][15] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Greek gods, creatures, and myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Celtic Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Four Branches of the Mabinogi][16]: an *online* translation of a classic collection of [tag:welsh] myths.&#xD;&#xA;2. [CELT][17]-- a fantastic *online* database of [tag:irish] literature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Celtic Heritage][18]&#xD;&#xA;2. [The Camelot Project][19] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Arthurian myth and legend.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Norse Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Norse Mythology for Smart People][20] -- an *online* encyclopedia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Miscellaneous Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Blogs about Mythology***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Mythology Matters][21] -- an *online* blog about mythology written by one of our own contributors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The New York Public Library's Recommended Mythology Links][22] -- an `online` collection of high-quality websites about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Interesting Articles***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The autobiography of John (William) Bierhorst][23] -- a short *online* autobiography of a man who translates native american myths for a living. It's a shortish and easy read.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.worldcat.org/libraries&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.worldcat.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/CS/CSIndex.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/world-mythology/oclc/27678612&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/oxford-companion-to-world-mythology/oclc/60492027&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/handbook-of-world-mythology/oclc/61151643&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/gods-heroes-and-monsters-a-sourcebook-of-greek-roman-and-near-eastern-myths-in-translation/oclc/842323102&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.pantheon.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/daulaires-book-of-greek-myths/oclc/779214769&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/daulaires-book-of-norse-myths/oclc/57311921&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/greek-gods/oclc/23595215&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/adventures-of-ulysses/oclc/22418476&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/sumerian-mythology-a-study-of-spiritual-and-literary-achievement-in-the-third-millennium-bc/oclc/322805&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: http://www.theoi.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: http://mabinogi.net/translations.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: http://www.ucc.ie/celt/&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/celtic-heritage-ancient-tradition-in-ireland-and-wales/oclc/53330832&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: http://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot-project&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: http://norse-mythology.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: https://mythologymatters.wordpress.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: http://www.nypl.org/weblinks/1279&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: http://biography.jrank.org/pages/224/Bierhorst-John-William-1936.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5117" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1124" RevisionGUID="959d3586-a1e9-4592-847b-200317a46d2d" CreationDate="2015-10-09T10:31:01.680" UserId="797" Comment="edited title" Text="Do swans [or geese?] have any medicinal-related significance in Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5118" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1139" RevisionGUID="dfcd5ca2-3359-4c2b-a1dc-6fc11386b2e3" CreationDate="2015-10-09T23:55:57.463" UserId="292" Text="I'm just guessing, but the swan was [Apollo's bird][1], and one of his aspects was [Paion][2], the Healer. His son Asklepios was the main healer-god, and [roosters][3] were offered to him as sacrifices. So the two birds may symbolize the two healing gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Heros/KyknosLigurios.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Ouranios/Paion.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theoi.com/Cult/AsklepiosCult.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5119" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1140" RevisionGUID="15b0c59f-1c03-441f-bd85-c0f26ca388d7" CreationDate="2015-10-12T13:41:23.593" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="The myth of Pandora is basically the story of a woman who is given a [box][1] by the gods, and told not to open it. Of course, she opens the box, and evil is released to the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it possible that the box represents a womb? I think that makes a lot of sense, because it's a cavity with an opening, and things come out of it (that were never seen on earth before). The myth also is a commentary on gender, because it's a woman who releases evil to the world, and Pandora is able to come down to earth because she tricks a man into marrying her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1125/why-is-it-that-we-say-pandoras-box-so-often-even-thought-it-was-a-jar" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5120" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1140" RevisionGUID="15b0c59f-1c03-441f-bd85-c0f26ca388d7" CreationDate="2015-10-12T13:41:23.593" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="Is Pandora's Box actually a womb?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5121" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1140" RevisionGUID="15b0c59f-1c03-441f-bd85-c0f26ca388d7" CreationDate="2015-10-12T13:41:23.593" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="|greek|pandora|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5122" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1136" RevisionGUID="359d0b92-a807-4997-a9ce-367ba62c7415" CreationDate="2015-10-13T12:44:28.913" UserId="398" Comment="added 693 characters in body" Text="This is not at all a stupid question! In fact, scholars have a couple theories on this. According to the standard interpretation, the cedar forests refer to the famous cedar forests of Lebanon and Syria, which were highly sought after by kings as far back as Sargon. [Sargon of Akkad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sargon_of_Akkad), based in Akkad in now northern Iraq, would boast of his conquests of the far reaches of Mesopotamia, including the cedar forests:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He made them cross the Amanus; he made his troops cross the Amanus. He reached the cedar forest. Amidst its din(?) he bowed down and readied his weapons. He offered a sacrifice, made obeisance, spoke distinctly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(&quot;Sargon in Foreign Lands,&quot; vv. 11'-14')&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There were not many forests with in either Mesopotamia or Egypt with the quality of wood you could find in Syria and the Levant, so timber from the region was extremely important. The acquisition of a source of cheap timber would most certainly be connected with issues of imperial expansion, and it's no surprise that both Pharaonic Egypt and Mesopotamia as early as Sargon of Akkad both desired control over the region.[[1]](http://dendro.cornell.edu/articles/kuniholm1997b.pdf) (warning: PDF)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This particular text comes from an epic of Sargon, although the fragmentary nature of it makes it difficult to know the full extent of the composition. What we do know is that there are many parallels with the Gilgamesh story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Sargonid dynasty (ca. 2300-2150) was the first real empire (now often called the Akkadian empire), and Sargon and his descendants' rule, though they were of a Semitic-speaking people (usually called Assyrian or Babylonian based off the primacy of those two cities in latter times), included all of Sumer, a different people with a different language. After its collapse, the city of Ur took over the empire (although lacked its far reaches), which is now known as the Ur III dynasty. Ur was not a Semitic city, but a Sumerian one, and so naturally there was some tension in recognizing Sargon's deeds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the results of this tension appears to be the ascription of deeds of Sargon to Gilgamesh. Since Sargon went to Dilmun, Gilgamesh went to Dilmun; since Sargon conquered the area containing cedar forests, so too did Gilgamesh go to the Cedar Forest and defeat Humbaba.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The precise relationship between the two is hypothetical. One hypothesis is that the journey to Cedar Forests was only created in the Ur III period. The epic would act as a counter of sorts to the Akkadian propaganda that preceded it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An alternative, one favored by Tigay (p. 78), is that there was always a journey to the Cedar Forest, but only with the Akkadian period did it acquire a precise location corresponding with Sargon's military activity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hansman 1976. &quot;Gilgamesh, Humbaba and the Land of the Erin-Trees.&quot; *Iraq* 38.1: 23–35.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Horowitz 1988. *Mesopotamian Cosmic Geography*. Eisenbrauns.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kramer 1963. *The Sumerians: Their History, Culture and Character.* The University of Chicago Press.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kuniholm 1997. &quot;Wood,&quot; in *The Oxford Encyclopedia of Archaeology in the Near East*, Eric M. Meyers, ed. New York: 347–349. [[PDF link]](http://dendro.cornell.edu/articles/kuniholm1997b.pdf)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Noegel 2008. &quot;Mesopotamian Epic,&quot; in Foley ed. *A Companion to Ancient Epic*. Blackwell Publishing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tigay 1982. *The Evolution of the Gilgamesh Epic*. University of Pennsylvania Press.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Westenholz 1997. *Legends of the Kings of Akkade: The Texts*. Eisenbrauns." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5123" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1140" RevisionGUID="60763914-15ca-4f21-ad63-51dbf5b8f42d" CreationDate="2015-10-13T15:10:48.663" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="deleted 5 characters in body" Text="The myth of Pandora is basically the story of a woman who is given a [box][1] by the gods, and told not to open it. Of course, she opens the box, and evil is released to the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it possible that the box represents a womb? I think that makes a lot of sense, because it's a cavity with an opening, and things come out of it (that were never seen on earth before). The myth also is a commentary on gender, because it's a woman who releases evil to the world, and Pandora's husband is at fault only because he is stupid enough to marry her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1125/why-is-it-that-we-say-pandoras-box-so-often-even-thought-it-was-a-jar" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5124" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1141" RevisionGUID="251ce852-5d71-46a1-ab32-633a209998a7" CreationDate="2015-10-13T18:29:04.557" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5125" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1142" RevisionGUID="cc386dc4-6287-4f67-8825-3adb4c0c8fc7" CreationDate="2015-10-13T18:29:04.557" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5127" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1143" RevisionGUID="faa0c9da-9e63-4938-9221-b1f003f6a642" CreationDate="2015-10-14T06:08:48.733" UserId="821" Text="In this case, it is up to you to interpret it however you want, since nothing has been left behind that suggests this is definitely true. In the end, this is a question of opinion, one that cannot be resolved." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5128" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1144" RevisionGUID="18f79271-d95d-4ad5-801e-ffc7a2d0d508" CreationDate="2015-10-14T07:50:23.187" UserId="826" Text="See I am from India and I had read many book like bhawat gita ,ramayana ,mahabharata etc..in which the characters were using very high technological weapons and aircraft were they aliens because they were using the technology that we don't have today.." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5129" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1144" RevisionGUID="18f79271-d95d-4ad5-801e-ffc7a2d0d508" CreationDate="2015-10-14T07:50:23.187" UserId="826" Text="Is the gods in Indian mythology who came on earth with some kind of aircraft were aliens ?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5130" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1144" RevisionGUID="18f79271-d95d-4ad5-801e-ffc7a2d0d508" CreationDate="2015-10-14T07:50:23.187" UserId="826" Text="|gods|india|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5131" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1145" RevisionGUID="042e079b-34d6-4e93-a314-1ceb43399850" CreationDate="2015-10-14T08:17:18.930" UserId="53" Text="This is clearly not provable.  However, various people have speculated that the Hindu Vimana is a flying saucer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most famously, this is in the works of *Erich Von Daniken* in the 1960s.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, a much earlier description was put forward by Desmond Leslie in the book *Flying Saucers Have Landed* (ISBN: 9780854351800).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5132" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1145" RevisionGUID="656d936d-84c5-499a-a075-00de13d01643" CreationDate="2015-10-14T08:22:36.710" UserId="53" Comment="Added links" Text="This is clearly not provable.  However, various people have speculated that the Hindu Vimana is a flying saucer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most famously, this is in the works of &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_von_D%C3%A4niken&quot;&gt;*Erich Von Daniken*&lt;/a&gt; in the 1960s.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, a much earlier description was put forward by &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Leslie&quot;&gt;Desmond Leslie&lt;/a&gt; in the 1953 book *Flying Saucers Have Landed* (ISBN: 9780854351800).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5133" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1145" RevisionGUID="a1fb8a80-5f51-46d6-a7a8-25c71aeafce6" CreationDate="2015-10-14T08:27:45.677" UserId="53" Comment="Added links" Text="This is clearly not provable.  However, various people have speculated that the Hindu Vimana is a flying saucer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most famously, this is in the works of &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_von_D%C3%A4niken&quot;&gt;*Erich Von Daniken*&lt;/a&gt; in the 1960s.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, a much earlier description was put forward by &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Leslie&quot;&gt;Desmond Leslie&lt;/a&gt; in the 1953 book *Flying Saucers Have Landed* (ISBN: 9780854351800).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These works have led to a widespread belief that the Vimana is an interplanetary craft, *Indra's Dart* is a thermonuclear weapon and other modern interpretations have been put on the technology described.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But, all this is speculation.  At a fundamental level your question, &quot;are they aliens?&quot; is unanswerable.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5134" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1145" RevisionGUID="c2a2a068-d212-48da-a304-f0786586fcc5" CreationDate="2015-10-14T08:35:51.790" UserId="53" Comment="Improved detail" Text="This is clearly not provable.  However, various people have speculated that the Hindu Vimana is a flying saucer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most famously, this is in the works of &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_von_D%C3%A4niken&quot;&gt;*Erich Von Daniken*&lt;/a&gt; in the 1960s.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, a much earlier description was put forward by &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Leslie&quot;&gt;Desmond Leslie&lt;/a&gt; in the 1953 book *Flying Saucers Have Landed* (ISBN: 9780854351800).  This presents a more cogent, less sensationalist, argument.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These works have led to a widespread belief that the Vimana is an interplanetary craft, *Indra's Dart* is a thermonuclear weapon and other modern interpretations have been put on the technology described.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But, all this is speculation.  At a fundamental level your question, &quot;are they aliens?&quot; is unanswerable.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5135" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1144" RevisionGUID="8284c1bd-5beb-46a8-a218-0cb2d435b841" CreationDate="2015-10-14T13:07:43.187" UserId="53" Comment="Added Vimana tag, tidied format" Text="I am from India and I had read many book like Bhawat Gita, Ramayana, Mahabharata etc. in which the characters were using very high technological weapons and aircraft.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Were they aliens because they were using the technology that we don't have today?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5136" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1144" RevisionGUID="8284c1bd-5beb-46a8-a218-0cb2d435b841" CreationDate="2015-10-14T13:07:43.187" UserId="53" Comment="Added Vimana tag, tidied format" Text="Is the gods in Indian mythology who came on earth with some kind of aircraft were aliens?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5137" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1144" RevisionGUID="8284c1bd-5beb-46a8-a218-0cb2d435b841" CreationDate="2015-10-14T13:07:43.187" UserId="53" Comment="Added Vimana tag, tidied format" Text="|gods|india|vimana|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5138" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1144" RevisionGUID="8284c1bd-5beb-46a8-a218-0cb2d435b841" CreationDate="2015-10-14T13:07:43.187" Comment="Proposed by 53 approved by -1 edit id of 232" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5139" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1144" RevisionGUID="c2aeddeb-fba0-477f-9f09-df9d5d098d1a" CreationDate="2015-10-14T13:07:43.187" UserId="398" Comment="Added Vimana tag, tidied format" Text="I am from India and I have read many books like Bhagavad Gita, Ramayana, Mahabharata etc. in which the characters were using very high technological weapons and aircraft.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Were they aliens because they were using the technology that we don't have today?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5140" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1146" RevisionGUID="d358ff3c-dd33-490d-a365-5cacf9407828" CreationDate="2015-10-14T14:29:17.840" UserId="831" Text="Why do the romans worship Cronos/Saturn? This new blog post http://www.mikeanderson.biz/2015/10/gambling-in-ancient-rome.html says that the romans worshiped Saturn. I thought Saturn/Cronos was killed by Zeus, so how could he be worshiped? I also thought that Cronos ate children, so why would the romans want to worship him?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you," ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5141" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1146" RevisionGUID="d358ff3c-dd33-490d-a365-5cacf9407828" CreationDate="2015-10-14T14:29:17.840" UserId="831" Text="Why do romans worship Cronos/Saturn?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5142" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1146" RevisionGUID="d358ff3c-dd33-490d-a365-5cacf9407828" CreationDate="2015-10-14T14:29:17.840" UserId="831" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5143" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1142" RevisionGUID="a83855a2-d314-4146-9c6a-15c4626e03e8" CreationDate="2015-10-14T14:58:17.630" UserId="53" Comment="added 59 characters in body" Text="The legendary brothers who founded the ancient city of Rome" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5144" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1142" RevisionGUID="a83855a2-d314-4146-9c6a-15c4626e03e8" CreationDate="2015-10-14T14:58:17.630" Comment="Proposed by 53 approved by 62, 183 edit id of 231" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5145" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1146" RevisionGUID="aef006de-60de-4cf0-8757-32d143b179b9" CreationDate="2015-10-14T17:40:04.183" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="I may have gone too far with this edit, but I think this is the question the OP was trying to ask" Text="I just read a blog post that talks about the roman feast of Saturnalia:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; During the time of the Republic, gambling was prohibited except during the festival of the Saturnalia which was held in December of each year. The Saturnalia was a celebration in honor of the Saturn, the Roman god of agriculture and, according to Roman myth, there existed a time when Saturn reigned over the earth and provided a bounty for mankind, who lived in a state of innocence. The festival was an attempt to relive that time by turning convention on its head.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Mike Anderson, Gambling in Ancient Rome][1])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm confused by this, because the greeks portrayed Saturn as an evil character who presumably shouldn't be worshiped (Cronos ate children, and was killed by Zeus). Could someone please give me some information about how and why the portrayal of Cronos changed from greek to roman mythology?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.mikeanderson.biz/2015/10/gambling-in-ancient-rome.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5146" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1146" RevisionGUID="aef006de-60de-4cf0-8757-32d143b179b9" CreationDate="2015-10-14T17:40:04.183" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="I may have gone too far with this edit, but I think this is the question the OP was trying to ask" Text="Differences in the greek and roman portrayal of Cronos/Saturn" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5147" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1146" RevisionGUID="fd4f7a58-eb65-441f-b1ca-54f57176a16a" CreationDate="2015-10-14T19:53:05.487" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="made closer to original question" Text="I just read a blog post that talks about the roman feast of Saturnalia:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; During the time of the Republic, gambling was prohibited except during the festival of the Saturnalia which was held in December of each year. The Saturnalia was a celebration in honor of the Saturn, the Roman god of agriculture and, according to Roman myth, there existed a time when Saturn reigned over the earth and provided a bounty for mankind, who lived in a state of innocence. The festival was an attempt to relive that time by turning convention on its head.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Mike Anderson, Gambling in Ancient Rome][1])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm confused by this, because the greeks portrayed Saturn as an evil character who presumably shouldn't be worshiped (Cronos ate children, and was killed by Zeus). Could someone please give me some information about how and why the portrayal of Cronos changed from greek to roman mythology, specifically focusing on why the romans began to worship a god who had previously been ignored by the greeks?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.mikeanderson.biz/2015/10/gambling-in-ancient-rome.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5148" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1144" RevisionGUID="dedb5b64-be78-4fc2-8061-bff347f31ef1" CreationDate="2015-10-14T20:21:57.947" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="title" Text="Are the gods in Indian mythology, who came on earth with some kind of aircraft, aliens?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5149" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1146" RevisionGUID="1f8f28b7-f437-4205-bd1a-0626c40bca80" CreationDate="2015-10-14T22:24:20.470" UserId="183" Comment="edited body; edited tags; edited title" Text="I just read a blog post that talks about the Roman feast of Saturnalia:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; During the time of the Republic, gambling was prohibited except during the festival of the Saturnalia which was held in December of each year. The Saturnalia was a celebration in honor of the Saturn, the Roman god of agriculture and, according to Roman myth, there existed a time when Saturn reigned over the earth and provided a bounty for mankind, who lived in a state of innocence. The festival was an attempt to relive that time by turning convention on its head.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Mike Anderson, Gambling in Ancient Rome][1])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm confused by this, because the Greeks portrayed Saturn as an evil character who presumably shouldn't be worshiped (Cronos ate children, and was killed by Zeus). Could someone please give me some information about how and why the portrayal of Cronos changed from Greek to Roman mythology, specifically focusing on why the Romans began to worship a god who had previously been ignored by the Greeks?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.mikeanderson.biz/2015/10/gambling-in-ancient-rome.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5150" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1146" RevisionGUID="1f8f28b7-f437-4205-bd1a-0626c40bca80" CreationDate="2015-10-14T22:24:20.470" UserId="183" Comment="edited body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Differences in the Greek and Roman portrayals of Cronos/Saturn" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5151" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1146" RevisionGUID="1f8f28b7-f437-4205-bd1a-0626c40bca80" CreationDate="2015-10-14T22:24:20.470" UserId="183" Comment="edited body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|greek|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5152" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1146" RevisionGUID="bf4e2cd3-6376-41bc-b58f-30a06078ab3e" CreationDate="2015-10-14T22:52:59.923" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|comparative|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5153" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1147" RevisionGUID="5bf5aa12-d010-43ac-80da-186980facfa5" CreationDate="2015-10-15T22:55:17.700" UserId="565" Text="Saturn was a native Italian god; Kronos was a Greek god.  Their early 'biographies' (i.e, mythologies and cult practices) developed quite independently of each in the earliest periods.  It was only when elite Romans became enamored of all things Greek that they tried to establish identifications between the two pantheons.  But from a cultic standpoint, Saturn was more important to Italians than Kronos ever was to Greeks." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5155" PostHistoryTypeId="12" PostId="1143" RevisionGUID="edd1353e-5f4e-4372-97e8-a326f06e6704" CreationDate="2015-10-15T23:39:37.117" UserId="183" Comment="Converted to Comment" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:183,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;HDE 226868&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="5161" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1149" RevisionGUID="4c1ea53b-547c-4bbd-a3ba-f7aada8dfeb8" CreationDate="2015-10-16T22:35:30.550" UserId="467" Text="I'm doing some investigation into the mythology behind Halloween, and am running into contradictory claims about the date of the festival for Pomona, the Roman Goddess of orchard fruits (apples, cherries, etc.), and I'm wondering whether anyone here has already sorted this out. Some earlier modern authors say that she had her own independent festival, which was at the time of our Halloween, October 31-November 1 (Ruth Edna Kelley, The Book of Halloween (1919), p. 13; Lesley Bannatyne, Halloween: An American Holiday, an American History (1990), pp. 6-7). But various other sources say it was really an element of the festival of her consort, the god Velrtumnus, whose festival, the Vertumnalia, was in August (the 13th) (H.H. Scullard, Festivals and Ceremonies of the Roman Republic (1981), pp. 174-75). The only explanation I've come across for the discrepancy so far is in the Italian Wikipedia article on the Vertumnalia, which says the mistake of dating the Vertumnalia in (late) October is due to a misinterpretation of a passage in Varro Reatinus (De Lingua Latina, 6.20-21). Ovid talks about both deities but sheds no light on the dating. Does anyone have a more thorough explanation based on original or scholarly sources?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5162" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1149" RevisionGUID="4c1ea53b-547c-4bbd-a3ba-f7aada8dfeb8" CreationDate="2015-10-16T22:35:30.550" UserId="467" Text="When Was the Goddess Pomona's Festival?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5163" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1149" RevisionGUID="4c1ea53b-547c-4bbd-a3ba-f7aada8dfeb8" CreationDate="2015-10-16T22:35:30.550" UserId="467" Text="|untagged|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5164" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1149" RevisionGUID="da58a890-e6a2-4055-ae76-1719da963aa4" CreationDate="2015-10-16T22:56:05.513" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="paragraphs" Text="I'm doing some investigation into the mythology behind Halloween, and am running into contradictory claims about the date of the festival for Pomona, the Roman Goddess of orchard fruits (apples, cherries, etc.), and I'm wondering whether anyone here has already sorted this out. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some earlier modern authors say that she had her own independent festival, which was at the time of our Halloween, October 31-November 1 (Ruth Edna Kelley, The Book of Halloween (1919), p. 13; Lesley Bannatyne, Halloween: An American Holiday, an American History (1990), pp. 6-7). But various other sources say it was really an element of the festival of her consort, the god Velrtumnus, whose festival, the Vertumnalia, was in August (the 13th) (H.H. Scullard, Festivals and Ceremonies of the Roman Republic (1981), pp. 174-75). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only explanation I've come across for the discrepancy so far is in the Italian Wikipedia article on the Vertumnalia, which says the mistake of dating the Vertumnalia in (late) October is due to a misinterpretation of a passage in Varro Reatinus (De Lingua Latina, 6.20-21). Ovid talks about both deities but sheds no light on the dating. Does anyone have a more thorough explanation based on original or scholarly sources?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5165" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1150" RevisionGUID="c97479c9-1bbf-47bb-8fc9-ae330fca8872" CreationDate="2015-10-17T02:02:04.263" UserId="398" Text="Yeah, the Italian Wiki page is correct. The reading is: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&gt; **Volturnalia a deo Volturno, cuius feriae tum. Octobri mense** Meditrinalia dies dictus a medendo, quod Flaccus flamen Martialis dicebat hoc die solitum vinum novum et vetus libari...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'll use the [Loeb translation](https://archive.org/stream/onlatinlanguage01varruoft#page/194/mode/2up) with some clarifications:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&gt; [There's also the] Volturnalia, from the god Volturnus, whose festival was at that time. In the month of October [was] the Meditrinalia, [which] was named from *mederi* [&quot;to be healed&quot;] because Flaccus the Flamen Martialis [a type of priest of Mars] used to say that on this day it was the practice to pour an offering of new and old wine to the god...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The very bad scholarship took the meaning of &quot;tum&quot; (at that time) to mean in the month of October, but the language wouldn't work like that. Instead, it would refer backwards, and the preceding passage discusses a festival in August. So the Volturnalia is in August.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some have taken the god Volturnus to be the same as Vertumnus, but this is actually just a guess. We don't know who exactly Volturnus is. It's possible they're the same, one being pronounced similar to the original Etruscan and one being more Romanized, but again, this is hypothetical.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the whole Pomona = 31 Oct? That's just bad scholarship that got passed along to non-Classicists writing about Halloween. There's no relationship.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interestingly, Scullard doesn't mention the festival of Pomona, nor does Beard/North/Price. It is true that Pomona is the consort of Vertumnus, but I'm not seeing anything that's expressly saying she shared part in his worship on Vertumnus, though it's likely that it was the case." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5166" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1151" RevisionGUID="9c8aa6e0-fc92-45c0-b6d8-e1088b051b7a" CreationDate="2015-10-17T15:31:58.973" UserId="743" Text="This is a more fascinating question than many might think at first glance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kronos is the Greek god and probably comes from Proto-Indo-European * *gern-* which meant germ or seed and yields the modern English words germ, grain, corn and kernel. This is likely because Kronos 'begat' the Olympian generation, and therefore was the 'seed'.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Saying the Greeks viewed Kronos as evil is something of a simplification, and it's important to recognize it as such because the difference in Greek and Roman religious worldviews goes to the heart of your question. For the Greeks, the gods showed supernatural virtue **and** supernatural vice. As can be deduced from his name, Kronos was originally an agricultural deity and the connection of seeds to planting and harvesting crops led to an association with seasons. Kronos wasn't necessarily *evil*, it rather might be more diplomatic to say that because he feared one of his children would overthrow him (a well-founded fear, it turns out) he was doing 'what he had to do' by eating them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Saturn's etymology is a bit trickier, but is probably PIE * *sewH(r)-* which would have meant 'seed, bring forth' and is cognate with modern English seed, son, semen, serum, sow (meaning what you do with seeds in a field). This means Saturn for the oldest of the Romans had an agricultural character (like Kronos for the Greeks) and it is apparent the two entities come from a single concept in an earlier PIE society.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The big difference is for the Romans the gods were paragons of virtue **or** vice. They were individuals much more to be beheld from afar with a sense of fear or awe; the Greek gods were extraordinarily relatable by comparison. The Roman association of agrarian wealth with Saturn was therefore the chief issue for *people*, while the conflict between himself and Jupiter was a matter amongst the gods. The Greeks didn't view the behavior of Kronos and Zeus quite so distantly but rather as a plausible human circumstance, and therefore may have been more reluctant to worship not only someone who ate his children, but who *lost* the war that came after. All fathers worry that their sons will outgrow and eventually overpower them, and the Titanomachy is a mythical reflection of this universal human process." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5167" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1152" RevisionGUID="85284402-6304-47bb-a666-b2b60cdb2f4a" CreationDate="2015-10-17T19:46:56.783" UserId="743" Text="I don't have enough reputation to comment on @C.M. Weimer's answer, so in lieu of that I will expand upon something he said and add a point of my own in the hopes that it's good enough to qualify as a new answer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To quote Mr. Weimer:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Others have noted that it may preserve a tradition of backlash against the introduction of agriculture in the region. Abel's offerings would be the offerings of a semi-nomadic shepherd, while Cain's is indicative of a farmer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*This* is what I've always believed. I was first exposed to this idea in a physical anthropology class in my freshman year, but I didn't register it until reading *Ishmael* by Daniel Quinn. Abel represents pastoralism and Cain is what Quinn calls *totalitarian agriculture*. Note that after being forced to wander, Cain went on to produce children like Enoch and Tubal-Cain who created astronomy, writing, architecture and metalworking. In this way, all of the traditions and practices we would commonly associate with civilization result from agriculture and ultimately from Cain. I think we can see parallels of the theme that conflict involving brothers leads to the beginning of civilization in the Proto-Indo-European divine hero twins * *manu-* (man) and * *yemo-* (twin) cf. Lat. *Gemini*, Skr. *Yama*. Like Romulus and Remus, Cain and Abel, or Ymir in Germanic myths - who was vivisected to constitute the world, the two brothers come to some critical moment and on the death of the twin the survivor (the elder brother) - or his progeny - goes on to found advanced societies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, I'd like to suggest an uncommon and somewhat apologist reading of the text in Genesis 4 whereby Cain is obeying God by killing Abel because the act essentially amounts to a sacrifice. The Lord looked favorably on Abel for his offering but unfavorably on Cain for his own. The Lord then tells Cain 'Do not just be angry. Do what is right (make an appropriate offering) and you(r sacrifice) will be accepted.' In Cain going on to sacrifice his brother, the 'sweetest of his bounty', I would argue we are seeing an early iteration of later stories, for example Abraham being asked to sacrifice his son, whereby the Lord is only satiated with the blood of his servants' beloveds. Looked at this way, Cain is the first killer but not the first *murderer*, and a conflicted character whose adherence to duty drives his hand.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cheers!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5169" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1153" RevisionGUID="75d4cd68-363e-4ade-b9f6-af8526c38cb8" CreationDate="2015-10-18T01:00:49.903" UserId="743" Text="Again, I don't yet have the reputation to comment on an answer given above, so I choose to respond here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have uploaded and made publicly available [this short, accessible paper][1] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Poseidon the Horse God and the Early Indo-Europeans&#xD;&#xA;Research Reports of Ikutoku Institute of Technology   9    1985**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;written by Nobuo Komita in which an argument is presented that Poseidon, before being transferred to the domain of the sea, was a Proto-Indo-European horse god associated with wealth, expansion and legitimate 'kingship'. I put kingship in quotes because it's something of a standing question whether or not PIE speakers even had such a concept. 'Having the right to rule' may be a better way of describing this function. In line with C.M. Weimer's comments above, in the paper Komita argues Poseidon is a specially-adapted form of the Sky Father (i.e. Zeus) as evidenced by Poseidon's trident as compared to Zeus's lightning bolt and Poseidon's conflict with Athena over patronage of cities - on the notion that the horse god's blessing was necessary to legitimately rule.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**edit**: I originally got the name of this paper from the Wikipedia article, to tell the truth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzP6osk7T7shYVI2VmtGUDBBVm8 &quot;this short, accessible paper&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5171" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1154" RevisionGUID="c73ef018-6a4f-48ce-94ec-b2e5387479a3" CreationDate="2015-10-18T14:26:37.447" UserId="743" Text="In the Book of Invasions Cesair flees Noah's flood to Ireland as a kind of matriarch of her fleet. The sources all agree there was an incredible sexual imbalance between men and women, with a total of three males and at least 36 females. Interestingly the sources also agree at least one of the men died from sexual exhaustion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - McKillop in the [Dictionary of Celtic Mythology][1] puts the number of women at 50.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Monaghan in [Celtic Mythology and Folklore][2] says 'at least a dozen women per man'.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Mallory lists the number as 150 women.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know next to nothing about Celtic mythology, and I was fascinated to learn of a feminine fleet commander seeking out land after a flood, and I'm flummoxed as to what import, again if any, the number of women in the myth holds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The number of men is three, and that's too riddled with possible meaning for me to delve into without knowing more of the mythos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So anyone out there with a better or clearer understanding of the Celts, do the quantities of these groups mean anything at all? And if they do, what is it?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cheers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So I don't have enough reputation to create the tag  Lebor Gabála Érenn as the system is recognizing it as new. Someone with enough rep please tag it appropriately.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/acref/9780198609674.001.0001/acref-9780198609674-e-943?rskey=pniygd&amp;result=943&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.com/books?id=nd9R6GQBB_0C&amp;lpg=PP1&amp;pg=PA85#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5172" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1154" RevisionGUID="c73ef018-6a4f-48ce-94ec-b2e5387479a3" CreationDate="2015-10-18T14:26:37.447" UserId="743" Text="What reason, if any, is there for the exact number of men and women who went with Cesair to Ireland in the Lebor Gabála Érenn?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5173" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1154" RevisionGUID="c73ef018-6a4f-48ce-94ec-b2e5387479a3" CreationDate="2015-10-18T14:26:37.447" UserId="743" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5174" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1154" RevisionGUID="6bf4bb82-94fb-4b60-b050-9e8af44c6eeb" CreationDate="2015-10-18T15:36:42.623" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="tag, removed cheers" Text="In the Book of Invasions Cesair flees Noah's flood to Ireland as a kind of matriarch of her fleet. The sources all agree there was an incredible sexual imbalance between men and women, with a total of three males and at least 36 females. Interestingly the sources also agree at least one of the men died from sexual exhaustion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - McKillop in the [Dictionary of Celtic Mythology][1] puts the number of women at 50.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Monaghan in [Celtic Mythology and Folklore][2] says 'at least a dozen women per man'.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Mallory lists the number as 150 women.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know next to nothing about Celtic mythology, and I was fascinated to learn of a feminine fleet commander seeking out land after a flood, and I'm flummoxed as to what import, again if any, the number of women in the myth holds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The number of men is three, and that's too riddled with possible meaning for me to delve into without knowing more of the mythos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So anyone out there with a better or clearer understanding of the Celts, do the quantities of these groups mean anything at all? And if they do, what is it?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/acref/9780198609674.001.0001/acref-9780198609674-e-943?rskey=pniygd&amp;result=943&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.com/books?id=nd9R6GQBB_0C&amp;lpg=PP1&amp;pg=PA85#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5175" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1154" RevisionGUID="6bf4bb82-94fb-4b60-b050-9e8af44c6eeb" CreationDate="2015-10-18T15:36:42.623" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="tag, removed cheers" Text="|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5177" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1133" RevisionGUID="0a793268-eaaf-49c0-b9a7-a1e894a501e9" CreationDate="2015-10-19T14:06:18.117" UserId="398" Comment="added 506 characters in body" Text="Welcome to the site, and welcome to the interesting world of mythology! Here are some resources for you to get started with.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By far the easiest way to learn more about mythology is to go to [your local library][1] and borrow one of their books about mythology. Don't worry about selecting the &quot;right&quot; source; just select a book that looks interesting to you. Remember, you are a beginner, therefore you don't know anything about mythology, and therefore *any* book will teach you something new.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, we recognize that not everyone can or would like to browse a library, and therefore have created a list of both online and offline resources. This list is by no means exhaustive: its purpose is merely to introduce the reader to a variety of sources about mythology. *Please do not be frightened by the amount of sources listed below: just choose a book or website that looks interesting and read it.* These books and websites are all interesting, so don't worry about choosing the &quot;wrong&quot; one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note to the reader: online sources have an *online* marker next to them. Offline sources link to the corresponding page on [worldcat.org][2], which will tell you whether the book is located in a library near you.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# General Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Collections of myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Creation Stories from around the World][3] -- *online* collection of creation myths from various cultures.&#xD;&#xA;2. [Sacred-Texts.com][4] -- an *online* database of translated myths and other sacred texts.&#xD;&#xA;3. [World Mythology][5]&#xD;&#xA;4. [Oxford Companion to World Mythology][6]&#xD;&#xA;5. [Handbook of World Mythology][7] &#xD;&#xA;6. [Gods, Heroes, and Monsters: A Sourcebook of Greek, Roman, and Near Eastern Myths in Translation][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Mythical Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Encyclopedia Mythica][9] -- an *online* encyclopedia about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Easier Texts&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For younger readers and those who’d like a more lively presentation before tackling the originals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [D’Aulaires’ Book of Greek Myths][10]: illustrated, readable, and blunt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. [D’Aulaires’ Book of Norse Myths][11]: illustrated, readable, and blunt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. [The Greek Gods][12], by Evslin, Evslin, and Hoopes. Not a long book but easy to read, and the one which got me hooked on mythology in elementary school.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. [The Adventures of Ulysses][13], Bernard Evslin: a highly readable and entertaining version of *The Odyssey.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I recommend anything by the D’Aulaires and the Evslins in general.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Mesopotamian Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Sumerian Mythology: A Study of Spiritual and Literary Achievement in the Third Millennium B.C.][14]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Greek Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Homer's [Iliad](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Ilhome.htm) and [Odyssey](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Odhome.htm)&#xD;&#xA;2. Hesiod's [Theogony](http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm) -- an *online* translation of the Greek creation myth.&#xD;&#xA;3. [Homeric Hymns](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HomericHymns1.html)&#xD;&#xA;4. Pindar's [Victory Odes](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0162%3Abook%3DO)&#xD;&#xA;5. Apollonius of Rhodes' [Argonautica](http://www.theoi.com/Text/ApolloniusRhodius1.html)&#xD;&#xA;6. Pseudo-Apollodorus' [Bibliotecha](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus1.html)&#xD;&#xA;3. Ovid's &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.worldcat.org/title/metamorphoses-of-ovid/oclc/17197438&quot;&gt;Metamorphoses&lt;/a&gt;, plus a downloadable version &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.poetryintranslation.com/klineasovid.htm&quot;&gt;here.&lt;/a&gt; A loosely-structured &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphoses&quot;&gt;narrative poem&lt;/a&gt; covering many of the classic Greek myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias and Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Timothy Gantz, *Early Greek Myth*&#xD;&#xA;1. [Theoi][15] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Greek gods, creatures, and myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Celtic Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Four Branches of the Mabinogi][16]: an *online* translation of a classic collection of [tag:welsh] myths.&#xD;&#xA;2. [CELT][17]-- a fantastic *online* database of [tag:irish] literature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Celtic Heritage][18]&#xD;&#xA;2. [The Camelot Project][19] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Arthurian myth and legend.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Norse Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Norse Mythology for Smart People][20] -- an *online* encyclopedia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Miscellaneous Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Blogs about Mythology***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Mythology Matters][21] -- an *online* blog about mythology written by one of our own contributors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The New York Public Library's Recommended Mythology Links][22] -- an `online` collection of high-quality websites about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Interesting Articles***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The autobiography of John (William) Bierhorst][23] -- a short *online* autobiography of a man who translates native american myths for a living. It's a shortish and easy read.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.worldcat.org/libraries&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.worldcat.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/CS/CSIndex.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/world-mythology/oclc/27678612&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/oxford-companion-to-world-mythology/oclc/60492027&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/handbook-of-world-mythology/oclc/61151643&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/gods-heroes-and-monsters-a-sourcebook-of-greek-roman-and-near-eastern-myths-in-translation/oclc/842323102&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.pantheon.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/daulaires-book-of-greek-myths/oclc/779214769&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/daulaires-book-of-norse-myths/oclc/57311921&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/greek-gods/oclc/23595215&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/adventures-of-ulysses/oclc/22418476&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/sumerian-mythology-a-study-of-spiritual-and-literary-achievement-in-the-third-millennium-bc/oclc/322805&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: http://www.theoi.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: http://mabinogi.net/translations.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: http://www.ucc.ie/celt/&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/celtic-heritage-ancient-tradition-in-ireland-and-wales/oclc/53330832&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: http://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot-project&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: http://norse-mythology.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: https://mythologymatters.wordpress.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: http://www.nypl.org/weblinks/1279&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: http://biography.jrank.org/pages/224/Bierhorst-John-William-1936.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5178" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1133" RevisionGUID="0cee21cc-1c12-40ee-b4f8-aa40ebb4903e" CreationDate="2015-10-20T01:08:09.567" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="the ` aren't readable by screen readers" Text="Welcome to the site, and welcome to the interesting world of mythology! Here are some resources for you to get started with.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By far the easiest way to learn more about mythology is to go to [your local library][1] and borrow one of their books about mythology. Don't worry about selecting the &quot;right&quot; source; just select a book that looks interesting to you. Remember, you are a beginner, therefore you don't know anything about mythology, and therefore *any* book will teach you something new.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, we recognize that not everyone can or would like to browse a library, and therefore have created a list of both online and offline resources. This list is by no means exhaustive: its purpose is merely to introduce the reader to a variety of sources about mythology. *Please do not be frightened by the amount of sources listed below: just choose a book or website that looks interesting and read it.* These books and websites are all interesting, so don't worry about choosing the &quot;wrong&quot; one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note to the reader: online sources have an *online* marker next to them. Offline sources link to the corresponding page on [worldcat.org][2], which will tell you whether the book is located in a library near you.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# General Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Collections of myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Creation Stories from around the World][3] -- *online* collection of creation myths from various cultures.&#xD;&#xA;2. [Sacred-Texts.com][4] -- an *online* database of translated myths and other sacred texts.&#xD;&#xA;3. [World Mythology][5]&#xD;&#xA;4. [Oxford Companion to World Mythology][6]&#xD;&#xA;5. [Handbook of World Mythology][7] &#xD;&#xA;6. [Gods, Heroes, and Monsters: A Sourcebook of Greek, Roman, and Near Eastern Myths in Translation][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Mythical Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Encyclopedia Mythica][9] -- an *online* encyclopedia about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Easier Texts&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For younger readers and those who’d like a more lively presentation before tackling the originals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [D’Aulaires’ Book of Greek Myths][10]: illustrated, readable, and blunt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. [D’Aulaires’ Book of Norse Myths][11]: illustrated, readable, and blunt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. [The Greek Gods][12], by Evslin, Evslin, and Hoopes. Not a long book but easy to read, and the one which got me hooked on mythology in elementary school.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. [The Adventures of Ulysses][13], Bernard Evslin: a highly readable and entertaining version of *The Odyssey.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I recommend anything by the D’Aulaires and the Evslins in general.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Mesopotamian Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Sumerian Mythology: A Study of Spiritual and Literary Achievement in the Third Millennium B.C.][14]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Greek Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Homer's [Iliad](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Ilhome.htm) and [Odyssey](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Odhome.htm)&#xD;&#xA;2. Hesiod's [Theogony](http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm) -- an *online* translation of the Greek creation myth.&#xD;&#xA;3. [Homeric Hymns](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HomericHymns1.html)&#xD;&#xA;4. Pindar's [Victory Odes](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0162%3Abook%3DO)&#xD;&#xA;5. Apollonius of Rhodes' [Argonautica](http://www.theoi.com/Text/ApolloniusRhodius1.html)&#xD;&#xA;6. Pseudo-Apollodorus' [Bibliotecha](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus1.html)&#xD;&#xA;3. Ovid's &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.worldcat.org/title/metamorphoses-of-ovid/oclc/17197438&quot;&gt;Metamorphoses&lt;/a&gt;, plus a downloadable version &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.poetryintranslation.com/klineasovid.htm&quot;&gt;here.&lt;/a&gt; A loosely-structured &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphoses&quot;&gt;narrative poem&lt;/a&gt; covering many of the classic Greek myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias and Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Timothy Gantz, *Early Greek Myth*&#xD;&#xA;1. [Theoi][15] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Greek gods, creatures, and myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Celtic Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Four Branches of the Mabinogi][16]: an *online* translation of a classic collection of [tag:welsh] myths.&#xD;&#xA;2. [CELT][17]-- a fantastic *online* database of [tag:irish] literature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Celtic Heritage][18]&#xD;&#xA;2. [The Camelot Project][19] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Arthurian myth and legend.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Norse Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Norse Mythology for Smart People][20] -- an *online* encyclopedia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Miscellaneous Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Blogs about Mythology***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Mythology Matters][21] -- an *online* blog about mythology written by one of our own contributors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The New York Public Library's Recommended Mythology Links][22] -- an *online* collection of high-quality websites about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Interesting Articles***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The autobiography of John (William) Bierhorst][23] -- a short *online* autobiography of a man who translates native american myths for a living. It's a shortish and easy read.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.worldcat.org/libraries&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.worldcat.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/CS/CSIndex.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/world-mythology/oclc/27678612&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/oxford-companion-to-world-mythology/oclc/60492027&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/handbook-of-world-mythology/oclc/61151643&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/gods-heroes-and-monsters-a-sourcebook-of-greek-roman-and-near-eastern-myths-in-translation/oclc/842323102&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.pantheon.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/daulaires-book-of-greek-myths/oclc/779214769&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/daulaires-book-of-norse-myths/oclc/57311921&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/greek-gods/oclc/23595215&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/adventures-of-ulysses/oclc/22418476&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/sumerian-mythology-a-study-of-spiritual-and-literary-achievement-in-the-third-millennium-bc/oclc/322805&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: http://www.theoi.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: http://mabinogi.net/translations.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: http://www.ucc.ie/celt/&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/celtic-heritage-ancient-tradition-in-ireland-and-wales/oclc/53330832&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: http://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot-project&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: http://norse-mythology.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: https://mythologymatters.wordpress.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: http://www.nypl.org/weblinks/1279&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: http://biography.jrank.org/pages/224/Bierhorst-John-William-1936.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5179" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1149" RevisionGUID="673b1f2e-de60-4587-ba7e-374a700c1433" CreationDate="2015-10-20T05:44:06.383" UserId="467" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="I'm doing some investigation into the mythology behind Halloween, and am running into contradictory claims about the date of the festival for Pomona, the Roman Goddess of orchard fruits (apples, cherries, etc.), and I'm wondering whether anyone here has already sorted this out. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some earlier modern authors say that she had her own independent festival, which was at the time of our Halloween, October 31-November 1 (Ruth Edna Kelley, The Book of Halloween (1919), p. 13; Lesley Bannatyne, Halloween: An American Holiday, an American History (1990), pp. 6-7). But various other sources say it was really an element of the festival of her consort, the god Vertumnus, whose festival, the Vertumnalia, was in August (the 13th) (H.H. Scullard, Festivals and Ceremonies of the Roman Republic (1981), pp. 174-75). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only explanation I've come across for the discrepancy so far is in the Italian Wikipedia article on the Vertumnalia, which says the mistake of dating the Vertumnalia in (late) October is due to a misinterpretation of a passage in Varro Reatinus (De Lingua Latina, 6.20-21). Ovid talks about both deities but sheds no light on the dating. Does anyone have a more thorough explanation based on original or scholarly sources?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5181" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1155" RevisionGUID="31831fdf-1e48-4bec-97a2-84cd67151222" CreationDate="2015-10-21T06:11:45.343" UserId="850" Text="I don't know why, in the discussions of the dying-and-rising god motif, it's always assumed that the natural range of such myths is the ancient Near East and its close neighbors. There are, of course, the famous examples of Odin and Balder in Scandinavian mythology. Some would say that the Odin myth shows Christian influence, but that's begging the question: it starts with the assumption that the Scandinavians could not have their own indigenous dying-and-rising-god myth and argues from there that the myth must be influenced by Christianity. Such arguments are not very convincing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another example that hardly anyone ever brings up is the Hindu god Ganesha. Shiva actually cuts off his head, killing him, and then, when faced with an irate Parvati, Shiva's wife and Ganesha's mother, he replaces the severed head with an elephant's and brings Ganesha back to life. That is a clear-cut case of dying-and-rising god if ever there was one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So no, &quot;dying-and-rising gods&quot; are not dead, not by a long shot, and in fact are not as geographically limited as commonly supposed. The myths don't have to be uniform. They just have to share the features of death and resurrection, either explicitly or symbolically, as a journey to the underworld followed by a return or rescue to the world of the living.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I can't speak to current scholarly fashions; it may be *du jour* to express skepticism about the validity of mythological archetypes. But though specialists always insist on the significance of atomistic details, they can't diminish the importance of unifying themes. It seems this one is due for a resurrection." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5182" PostHistoryTypeId="13" PostId="1143" RevisionGUID="6fa344fa-3763-4ae9-b95b-b02d53b4c6ba" CreationDate="2015-10-21T06:47:16.120" UserId="108" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:108,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Semaphore&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="5183" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1122" RevisionGUID="45b046a7-37ca-47f7-925b-c6791c7bfcb3" CreationDate="2015-10-21T13:07:13.217" UserId="79" Comment="added 9 characters in body" Text="I just spent a little time on the online etymology dictionary: https://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=holt&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hoard means a safe place to hide.&#xD;&#xA;Mimis' is a god of wisdom and is connected with the world tree and others.&#xD;&#xA;a Holt is a coppice, a stand of trees routinely cut to the ground to spring back anew. This keeps the tree living a long time and ensures that the wood harvested is straight and strong. I teach ecological design and we use coppice. Much of the Norse myths describe management plans for land care." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5184" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1102" RevisionGUID="4870e18a-9f2e-4517-a262-73afeb02ef45" CreationDate="2015-10-21T13:10:28.757" UserId="79" Comment="edited title" Text="In Norse mythology, is there a reference to a stone/rock place, entity, object?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5185" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1156" RevisionGUID="3ae3136b-ade6-44b7-b1dc-6405fbc5c4d7" CreationDate="2015-10-21T13:56:36.457" UserId="79" Text="The supposedly nameless sword juggler is a well known figure in the Norse mythology. He's the son of Odin and Frigg, and is the messenger of the gods. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;His name is Hermod or, Hermóðr the Brave.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The version of the story referenced in the question does not reveal the name of the juggler. However, in *The Norse Myths* by Heilan Yvette Grimes (ISBN: 9781879196025), the name of the sword juggler is openly said.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's the extract about the aforementioned scene from the book:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/IvGoz.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/9OMms.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5186" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1157" RevisionGUID="05c7c0a8-7989-462d-866c-94b34e273e64" CreationDate="2015-10-21T20:02:33.797" UserId="852" Text="After read about [Ship of Theseus paradox][1] I was in a big doubt, I looked in Wikipedia, Google, but I can't found an unique mention of this issue: his ship has its own name?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5187" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1157" RevisionGUID="05c7c0a8-7989-462d-866c-94b34e273e64" CreationDate="2015-10-21T20:02:33.797" UserId="852" Text="The &quot;Ship of Theseus&quot; have a name?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5188" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1157" RevisionGUID="05c7c0a8-7989-462d-866c-94b34e273e64" CreationDate="2015-10-21T20:02:33.797" UserId="852" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5189" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1140" RevisionGUID="7662c286-bfe3-4955-8d98-ee47911e2bce" CreationDate="2015-10-21T23:21:15.773" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="the title probably has something to do with how this question has been recieved" Text="What is the symbolism behind Pandora's Box?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5190" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1157" RevisionGUID="a5a3fcf0-9cb2-411b-80e2-761e52868888" CreationDate="2015-10-22T04:54:21.837" UserId="108" Comment="added 6 characters in body; edited title" Text="After read about [Ship of Theseus paradox][1] I was in a big doubt, I looked in Wikipedia, Google, but I can't found an unique mention of this issue: does his ship have its own name?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5191" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1157" RevisionGUID="a5a3fcf0-9cb2-411b-80e2-761e52868888" CreationDate="2015-10-22T04:54:21.837" UserId="108" Comment="added 6 characters in body; edited title" Text="Does the &quot;Ship of Theseus&quot; have a name?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5192" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1158" RevisionGUID="301d73fd-5595-415c-b550-284a7a9477a5" CreationDate="2015-10-22T05:02:56.210" UserId="108" Text="The ship has no name. This storey came to us from Plutarch, who writes that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The ship wherein Theseus and the youth of Athens returned had thirty oars, and was preserved by the Athenians down even to the time of Demetrius Phalereus, for they took away the old planks as they decayed, putting in new and stronger timber in their place, insomuch that this ship became a standing example among the philosophers, for the logical question of things that grow; one side holding that the ship remained the same, and the other contending that it was not the same.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This ships is identified as the one that Ancient Athens used to send to Delos to honour Apollo. That story is preserved by Plato, who explains:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The stern of the ship which the Athenians sent to Delos happened to have been crowned on the day before he was tried ... It is the ship in which, according to Athenian tradition, Theseus went to Crete when he took with him the fourteen youths, and was the saviour of them and of himself. And they are said to have vowed to Apollo at the time, that if they were saved they would send a yearly mission to Delos. Now this custom still continues, and the whole period of the voyage to and from Delos, beginning when the priest of Apollo crowns the stern of the ship, is a holy season.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;No name has been attributed to the ship in either account. Thus, the closest thing to a name for the ship is &quot;Theseus' Ship&quot; or &quot;Ship of Theseus&quot;." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5193" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="485" RevisionGUID="91614b06-a30b-490d-94b5-c49477c57cae" CreationDate="2015-10-22T20:38:09.077" UserId="398" Comment="added 5 characters in body" Text="When Dionysus fetches Semele from Hades and introduces her to Olympus, she is no longer a human being, but a goddess. The name change is actually due to this transformation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Στην ελληνική μυθολογία το όνομα **Θυώνη** ήταν μια άλλη ονομασία της μητέρας του θεού Διονύσου, της **Σεμέλης**. Η εξήγηση που δίνεται για τη μεταξύ τους διαφορά είναι ότι «**Σεμέλη**» είναι η θνητή υπόσταση της μητέρας του θεού, ενώ «**Θυώνη**» είναι η **Σεμέλη** μετά την αποθέωσή της (δηλαδή τη μετατροπή της σε θεά) από τον Διόνυσο, ο οποίος την έφερε στον Όλυμπο παίρνοντάς την από τον Άδη.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;source: Wikipedia article on [Thyone](http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%98%CF%85%CF%8E%CE%BD%CE%B7)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In Greek mythology the name **Thyone** was another name of Dionysus' mother, **Semele**. The difference is that **Semele** is a mortal aspect of Dionysus' mother, while **Thyone** is actually **Semele** after her **Αποθέωσις** (which means deification in Greek).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Little is however known about the etymology of the name **Semele**. One theory is that it's derived from the word `Θεμέλη` which means Earth in ancient Greek. That said, the names are tied to **Themele's** subsistence at the time." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5195" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1133" RevisionGUID="45bd5d16-474d-4595-828d-d036ba6384cf" CreationDate="2015-10-24T15:14:50.093" UserId="398" Comment="added 141 characters in body" Text="Welcome to the site, and welcome to the interesting world of mythology! Here are some resources for you to get started with.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By far the easiest way to learn more about mythology is to go to [your local library][1] and borrow one of their books about mythology. Don't worry about selecting the &quot;right&quot; source; just select a book that looks interesting to you. Remember, you are a beginner, therefore you don't know anything about mythology, and therefore *any* book will teach you something new.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, we recognize that not everyone can or would like to browse a library, and therefore have created a list of both online and offline resources. This list is by no means exhaustive: its purpose is merely to introduce the reader to a variety of sources about mythology. *Please do not be frightened by the amount of sources listed below: just choose a book or website that looks interesting and read it.* These books and websites are all interesting, so don't worry about choosing the &quot;wrong&quot; one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note to the reader: online sources have an *online* marker next to them. Offline sources link to the corresponding page on [worldcat.org][2], which will tell you whether the book is located in a library near you.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# General Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Collections of myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Creation Stories from around the World][3] -- *online* collection of creation myths from various cultures.&#xD;&#xA;2. [Sacred-Texts.com][4] -- an *online* database of translated myths and other sacred texts.&#xD;&#xA;3. [World Mythology][5]&#xD;&#xA;4. [Oxford Companion to World Mythology][6]&#xD;&#xA;5. [Handbook of World Mythology][7] &#xD;&#xA;6. [Gods, Heroes, and Monsters: A Sourcebook of Greek, Roman, and Near Eastern Myths in Translation][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Mythical Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Encyclopedia Mythica][9] -- an *online* encyclopedia about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Easier Texts&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For younger readers and those who’d like a more lively presentation before tackling the originals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [D’Aulaires’ Book of Greek Myths][10]: illustrated, readable, and blunt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. [D’Aulaires’ Book of Norse Myths][11]: illustrated, readable, and blunt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. [The Greek Gods][12], by Evslin, Evslin, and Hoopes. Not a long book but easy to read, and the one which got me hooked on mythology in elementary school.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. [The Adventures of Ulysses][13], Bernard Evslin: a highly readable and entertaining version of *The Odyssey.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I recommend anything by the D’Aulaires and the Evslins in general.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Mesopotamian Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Sumerian Mythology: A Study of Spiritual and Literary Achievement in the Third Millennium B.C.][14]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. [The Electronic Corpus of Sumerian Literature: Narrative Works][24]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Greek Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Homer's [Iliad](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Ilhome.htm) and [Odyssey](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Odhome.htm)&#xD;&#xA;2. Hesiod's [Theogony](http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm) -- an *online* translation of the Greek creation myth.&#xD;&#xA;3. [Homeric Hymns](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HomericHymns1.html)&#xD;&#xA;4. Pindar's [Victory Odes](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0162%3Abook%3DO)&#xD;&#xA;5. Apollonius of Rhodes' [Argonautica](http://www.theoi.com/Text/ApolloniusRhodius1.html)&#xD;&#xA;6. Pseudo-Apollodorus' [Bibliotecha](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus1.html)&#xD;&#xA;3. Ovid's &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.worldcat.org/title/metamorphoses-of-ovid/oclc/17197438&quot;&gt;Metamorphoses&lt;/a&gt;, plus a downloadable version &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.poetryintranslation.com/klineasovid.htm&quot;&gt;here.&lt;/a&gt; A loosely-structured &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphoses&quot;&gt;narrative poem&lt;/a&gt; covering many of the classic Greek myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias and Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Timothy Gantz, *Early Greek Myth*&#xD;&#xA;1. [Theoi][15] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Greek gods, creatures, and myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Celtic Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Four Branches of the Mabinogi][16]: an *online* translation of a classic collection of [tag:welsh] myths.&#xD;&#xA;2. [CELT][17]-- a fantastic *online* database of [tag:irish] literature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Celtic Heritage][18]&#xD;&#xA;2. [The Camelot Project][19] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Arthurian myth and legend.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Norse Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Norse Mythology for Smart People][20] -- an *online* encyclopedia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Miscellaneous Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Blogs about Mythology***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Mythology Matters][21] -- an *online* blog about mythology written by one of our own contributors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The New York Public Library's Recommended Mythology Links][22] -- an *online* collection of high-quality websites about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Interesting Articles***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The autobiography of John (William) Bierhorst][23] -- a short *online* autobiography of a man who translates native american myths for a living. It's a shortish and easy read.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.worldcat.org/libraries&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.worldcat.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/CS/CSIndex.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/world-mythology/oclc/27678612&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/oxford-companion-to-world-mythology/oclc/60492027&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/handbook-of-world-mythology/oclc/61151643&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/gods-heroes-and-monsters-a-sourcebook-of-greek-roman-and-near-eastern-myths-in-translation/oclc/842323102&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.pantheon.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/daulaires-book-of-greek-myths/oclc/779214769&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/daulaires-book-of-norse-myths/oclc/57311921&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/greek-gods/oclc/23595215&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/adventures-of-ulysses/oclc/22418476&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/sumerian-mythology-a-study-of-spiritual-and-literary-achievement-in-the-third-millennium-bc/oclc/322805&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: http://www.theoi.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: http://mabinogi.net/translations.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: http://www.ucc.ie/celt/&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/celtic-heritage-ancient-tradition-in-ireland-and-wales/oclc/53330832&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: http://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot-project&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: http://norse-mythology.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: https://mythologymatters.wordpress.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: http://www.nypl.org/weblinks/1279&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: http://biography.jrank.org/pages/224/Bierhorst-John-William-1936.html&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=c.1*#" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5196" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1159" RevisionGUID="15e899f4-fa8e-4c25-b8f8-cdda7cf3fac1" CreationDate="2015-10-25T03:42:02.077" UserId="861" Text="I recently read Kenneth Davis' book titled Don't Know Much About Mythology. Well compiled and a breezy read about various mythologies ranging from Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Greek, Roman, with a sprinkling of Celtic, Indian, African, and Pacific(Australian) thrown in at the end. &#xA;&#xA;Would be a good starter, before you venture into detailed texts. &#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5197" PostHistoryTypeId="16" PostId="1159" RevisionGUID="a3dbbdce-dee8-43ca-a610-af7092324051" CreationDate="2015-10-25T03:42:02.077" UserId="861" />
  <row Id="5198" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1132" RevisionGUID="382d3c13-13f5-4758-a9c8-baba1f8ecdb0" CreationDate="2015-10-25T06:47:51.603" UserId="398" Comment="edited body" Text="I would like to learn more about mythology, but I'm unsure where to start. Could anyone recommend some good websites or books for me to take a look at?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Related meta discussion: http://meta.mythology.stackexchange.com/q/292/62*" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5199" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1160" RevisionGUID="87f8dcd3-0a43-4ecb-9c51-d4558967c4a6" CreationDate="2015-10-25T17:36:22.550" UserId="862" Text="Basically Gods doesn't live on earth, they live some other place, so may be they are some kind of aliens to earth but they are not like modern aliens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since they live in other areas of universe other than earth they need transportation or even humans need transportation to go into the outer space and to meet some gods.Therefore the transportation system is laid in between the terrestrial and extra-terrestrial worlds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mostly Gods doesn't need the transportation because they have some special powers as prescribed by Vedas as Astasiddulu(eight godly powers).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;references:&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vimana, &#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5200" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1133" RevisionGUID="24ed1fb4-cf5d-4ac3-b0a3-799bd9a353e2" CreationDate="2015-10-26T19:33:58.637" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="mesoamerica" Text="Welcome to the site, and welcome to the interesting world of mythology! Here are some resources for you to get started with.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By far the easiest way to learn more about mythology is to go to [your local library][1] and borrow one of their books about mythology. Don't worry about selecting the &quot;right&quot; source; just select a book that looks interesting to you. Remember, you are a beginner, therefore you don't know anything about mythology, and therefore *any* book will teach you something new.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, we recognize that not everyone can or would like to browse a library, and therefore have created a list of both online and offline resources. This list is by no means exhaustive: its purpose is merely to introduce the reader to a variety of sources about mythology. *Please do not be frightened by the amount of sources listed below: just choose a book or website that looks interesting and read it.* These books and websites are all interesting, so don't worry about choosing the &quot;wrong&quot; one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note to the reader: online sources have an *online* marker next to them. Offline sources link to the corresponding page on [worldcat.org][2], which will tell you whether the book is located in a library near you.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# General Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Collections of myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Creation Stories from around the World][3] -- *online* collection of creation myths from various cultures.&#xD;&#xA;2. [Sacred-Texts.com][4] -- an *online* database of translated myths and other sacred texts.&#xD;&#xA;3. [World Mythology][5]&#xD;&#xA;4. [Oxford Companion to World Mythology][6]&#xD;&#xA;5. [Handbook of World Mythology][7] &#xD;&#xA;6. [Gods, Heroes, and Monsters: A Sourcebook of Greek, Roman, and Near Eastern Myths in Translation][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Mythical Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Encyclopedia Mythica][9] -- an *online* encyclopedia about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Easier Texts&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For younger readers and those who’d like a more lively presentation before tackling the originals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [D’Aulaires’ Book of Greek Myths][10]: illustrated, readable, and blunt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. [D’Aulaires’ Book of Norse Myths][11]: illustrated, readable, and blunt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. [The Greek Gods][12], by Evslin, Evslin, and Hoopes. Not a long book but easy to read, and the one which got me hooked on mythology in elementary school.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. [The Adventures of Ulysses][13], Bernard Evslin: a highly readable and entertaining version of *The Odyssey.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I recommend anything by the D’Aulaires and the Evslins in general.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Mesopotamian Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Sumerian Mythology: A Study of Spiritual and Literary Achievement in the Third Millennium B.C.][14]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. [The Electronic Corpus of Sumerian Literature: Narrative Works][15]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Greek Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Homer's [Iliad](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Ilhome.htm) and [Odyssey](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Odhome.htm)&#xD;&#xA;2. Hesiod's [Theogony](http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm) -- an *online* translation of the Greek creation myth.&#xD;&#xA;3. [Homeric Hymns](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HomericHymns1.html)&#xD;&#xA;4. Pindar's [Victory Odes](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0162%3Abook%3DO)&#xD;&#xA;5. Apollonius of Rhodes' [Argonautica](http://www.theoi.com/Text/ApolloniusRhodius1.html)&#xD;&#xA;6. Pseudo-Apollodorus' [Bibliotecha](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus1.html)&#xD;&#xA;3. Ovid's &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.worldcat.org/title/metamorphoses-of-ovid/oclc/17197438&quot;&gt;Metamorphoses&lt;/a&gt;, plus a downloadable version &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.poetryintranslation.com/klineasovid.htm&quot;&gt;here.&lt;/a&gt; A loosely-structured &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphoses&quot;&gt;narrative poem&lt;/a&gt; covering many of the classic Greek myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias and Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Timothy Gantz, *Early Greek Myth*&#xD;&#xA;1. [Theoi][16] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Greek gods, creatures, and myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Celtic Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Four Branches of the Mabinogi][17]: an *online* translation of a classic collection of [tag:welsh] myths.&#xD;&#xA;2. [CELT][18]-- a fantastic *online* database of [tag:irish] literature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Celtic Heritage][19]&#xD;&#xA;2. [The Camelot Project][20] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Arthurian myth and legend.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Norse Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Norse Mythology for Smart People][21] -- an *online* encyclopedia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Mesoamerican / Central American&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Flayed God][22]&#xD;&#xA;2. The Popol Vuh: translations exist online: you can choose between a [literal translation][23] and a [less literal translation][24].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Miscellaneous Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Blogs about Mythology***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Mythology Matters][25] -- an *online* blog about mythology written by one of our own contributors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The New York Public Library's Recommended Mythology Links][26] -- an *online* collection of high-quality websites about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Interesting Articles***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The autobiography of John (William) Bierhorst][27] -- a short *online* autobiography of a man who translates native american myths for a living. It's a shortish and easy read.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.worldcat.org/libraries&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.worldcat.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/CS/CSIndex.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/world-mythology/oclc/27678612&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/oxford-companion-to-world-mythology/oclc/60492027&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/handbook-of-world-mythology/oclc/61151643&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/gods-heroes-and-monsters-a-sourcebook-of-greek-roman-and-near-eastern-myths-in-translation/oclc/842323102&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.pantheon.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/daulaires-book-of-greek-myths/oclc/779214769&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/daulaires-book-of-norse-myths/oclc/57311921&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/greek-gods/oclc/23595215&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/adventures-of-ulysses/oclc/22418476&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/sumerian-mythology-a-study-of-spiritual-and-literary-achievement-in-the-third-millennium-bc/oclc/322805&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=c.1*#&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: http://www.theoi.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: http://mabinogi.net/translations.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: http://www.ucc.ie/celt/&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/celtic-heritage-ancient-tradition-in-ireland-and-wales/oclc/53330832&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: http://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot-project&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: http://norse-mythology.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/flayed-god-the-mesoamerican-mythological-tradition-sacred-texts-and-images-from-pre-columbian-mexico-and-central-america/oclc/183418728?referer=di&amp;ht=edition&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: http://www.mesoweb.com/publications/Christenson/PV-Literal.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: http://www.mesoweb.com/publications/Christenson/PopolVuh.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: https://mythologymatters.wordpress.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: http://www.nypl.org/weblinks/1279&#xD;&#xA;  [27]: http://biography.jrank.org/pages/224/Bierhorst-John-William-1936.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5201" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1161" RevisionGUID="3483538e-59e7-4abc-8d03-bb0af861b1d3" CreationDate="2015-10-26T19:38:46.717" UserId="864" Text="Tolkien apparently drew much of his inspiration for his elves from the Welsh supernatural owners of nature, the Tylwyth Teg: these are remarkable for the degree that the Welsh assigned their brand of elves a royal attribute. And this apparently suited Tolkien.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a remarkable, broad swath of shared belief systems in Northern Europe that extends from Ireland, Brittany, and Iceland to Sweden that features supernatural beings that live in communities in social groups reminiscent of those of people. The following is an excerpt from my Introduction to Folklore (2014):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Supernatural beings living in human-like communities are relatively rare. They occur in the traditions of Polynesia, Britain and Ireland, Scandinavia, Iceland and the North Sea islands, and to a certain extent the Russia. The Celts may have influenced Scandinavian traditions since the two groups had millennia-old contact. In English, the supernatural beings were traditionally called “elves,” but in the Celtic areas they are more typically referred to as “fairies.” In Gaelic, they are the sidhe (pronounced “shee”). The Norwegians call them huldre meaning hidden. In Sweden they are the trolls, but the country is enormous and various locations used different terms. The geographic distribution and history of the word “troll” is extremely complex since it can refer to a wide variety of supernatural beings, depending on the location, and it is sometimes used generically for many types of supernatural beings.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you have further questions, feel free to ask." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5203" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1163" RevisionGUID="f4247677-5c7b-4b2d-bab7-9684c5ca91e3" CreationDate="2015-10-27T09:42:02.363" UserId="867" Text="&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have a statement from the belief of Scientology:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;75 million years ago Xenu took these thetans to Hawaii and Los Palmas where he subjected them to a kind of brain-washing called &quot;implanting&quot; for 36 days, in which false memories were implanted in their minds to make them servile.&quot; Scientologists call this event &quot;Incident 2&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I was wondering if the locations would be placed the same places on earth namely Hawaii and Los Palmas according to the belief? Because according to my book about geographic I can see that there has been a radically changes on the earth the last 75 million years. The continent and especially the Pacific and American regions has changed dramatically.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5204" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1163" RevisionGUID="f4247677-5c7b-4b2d-bab7-9684c5ca91e3" CreationDate="2015-10-27T09:42:02.363" UserId="867" Text="Was 'Incident 2' invariant for geographical changes?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5205" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1163" RevisionGUID="f4247677-5c7b-4b2d-bab7-9684c5ca91e3" CreationDate="2015-10-27T09:42:02.363" UserId="867" Text="|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5207" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1164" RevisionGUID="c2cb5db7-2fb0-49e5-8169-0af7b8d00cc9" CreationDate="2015-10-27T17:34:58.003" UserId="871" Text="It seems more logical for the ravens to be named &quot;Thought,&quot; and &quot;Desire.&quot; Reading Thor's statement about the daily flights of the ravens becomes much more clear if the names are &quot;Thought&quot; and &quot;Desire.&quot; Paraphrasing Thor, he said: &quot;I worry daily that I may lose the ability to think, but I worry more that I may lose the DESIRE to think.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;Who among us has not contemplated old age, and the inherent dangers of losing one's ability to think, but then worried far more about losing one's desire to think?&#xD;&#xA;As one trained in psychology, in the European pattern, the meanings of the names of the ravens seems much more appropriate when it is assumed that the story is a paraphrased comment about the universal adult concern about losing one's ability to contemplate reality and the world; and how that concern is overshadowed by the fear that one may lose the desire to ponder reality.&#xD;&#xA;Well, that's my estimable take on the meanings of names, life, the Universe, and everything. My considered opinion, plus twenty dollars, may just purchase one a small, plain, coffee; throughout the World!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5209" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1158" RevisionGUID="c9653e62-1663-464a-a8f5-975cc9bc876a" CreationDate="2015-10-27T20:13:54.607" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 474 characters in body" Text="The ship has no name. This story came to us from Plutarch, [who writes that][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The ship wherein Theseus and the youth of Athens returned had thirty oars, and was preserved by the Athenians down even to the time of Demetrius Phalereus, for they took away the old planks as they decayed, putting in new and stronger timber in their place, insomuch that this ship became a standing example among the philosophers, for the logical question of things that grow; one side holding that the ship remained the same, and the other contending that it was not the same.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This ships is identified as the one that Ancient Athens used to send to Delos to honour Apollo. That story is preserved by Plato, [who explains][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The stern of the ship which the Athenians sent to Delos happened to have been crowned on the day before he was tried ... It is the ship in which, according to Athenian tradition, Theseus went to Crete when he took with him the fourteen youths, and was the saviour of them and of himself. And they are said to have vowed to Apollo at the time, that if they were saved they would send a yearly mission to Delos. Now this custom still continues, and the whole period of the voyage to and from Delos, beginning when the priest of Apollo crowns the stern of the ship, is a holy season.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;No name has been attributed to the ship in either account. Thus, the closest thing to a name for the ship is &quot;Theseus' Ship&quot; or &quot;Ship of Theseus&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Lives/home.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.com/books?id=Gy8EAAAAYAAJ&amp;pg=PA249&amp;lpg=PA249&amp;dq=%22The%20stern%20of%20the%20ship%20which%20the%20Athenians%20sent%20to%20Delos%20happened%20to%20have%20been%20crowned%20on%20the%20day%20before%20he%20was%20tried%22&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=zQ3MehICqy&amp;sig=ijAGNTLDe1BFdFxhBH7ax_IZLzs&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0CC4Q6AEwBWoVChMI-offmbvjyAIVxXI-Ch2h-A_P#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5210" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1164" RevisionGUID="6344bf54-7a16-4b3b-a3ce-54b7266da58f" CreationDate="2015-10-27T20:17:44.727" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="deleted 202 characters in body" Text="It seems more logical for the ravens to be named &quot;Thought,&quot; and &quot;Desire.&quot; Reading Thor's statement about the daily flights of the ravens becomes much more clear if the names are &quot;Thought&quot; and &quot;Desire.&quot; Paraphrasing Thor, he said: &quot;I worry daily that I may lose the ability to think, but I worry more that I may lose the DESIRE to think.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;Who among us has not contemplated old age, and the inherent dangers of losing one's ability to think, but then worried far more about losing one's desire to think?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As one trained in psychology, in the European pattern, the meanings of the names of the ravens seems much more appropriate when it is assumed that the story is a paraphrased comment about the universal adult concern about losing one's ability to contemplate reality and the world; and how that concern is overshadowed by the fear that one may lose the desire to ponder reality.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5211" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1166" RevisionGUID="0aaa5d7d-3783-475e-b9a6-16f5f712f76a" CreationDate="2015-10-27T20:41:50.627" UserId="140" Text="I remember reading somewhere that in Norse mythology dwarves and dark elves are the same thing. Then I started reading Gylfaginning and it sounded like they were different, but then later on they send someone to get help from the dwarves in Svartalfheim, which I'm pretty sure is probably 'dark elf home.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, are dwarves and dark elves the same thing? Or are they different beings that happen to live in the same place? Something else?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Note: I haven't finished Gylfaginning yet, I'm finding it a bit of a tough read.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5212" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1166" RevisionGUID="0aaa5d7d-3783-475e-b9a6-16f5f712f76a" CreationDate="2015-10-27T20:41:50.627" UserId="140" Text="Are dwarves and dark elves the same?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5213" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1166" RevisionGUID="0aaa5d7d-3783-475e-b9a6-16f5f712f76a" CreationDate="2015-10-27T20:41:50.627" UserId="140" Text="|norse|gylfaginning|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5214" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1127" RevisionGUID="6e2470c9-471d-464b-b98b-8d1535d60396" CreationDate="2015-10-27T21:52:57.570" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="I'm going to remove the crazy stuff about rome etc" Text="Where did the story/myth of the sword in the stone originate? It was possessed by King Arthur, a British ruler who came of possession of it as a young boy. Merlin possessed it as well, helping him learn as being a teacher and professor to King Arthur.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where did this &quot;story/myth&quot; come from? Was there more than one sword in the stone? What is the origin? What if it is a myth, can we interpret from this?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sword_in_the_Stone" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5215" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1130" RevisionGUID="4e1c70f7-c4f8-4572-ad61-dbb72e4ba39c" CreationDate="2015-10-27T21:54:40.087" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 59 characters in body" Text="The actual answer to the question:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  The first reference to the sword in the stone is to be found only in the prose redaction of Robert de Boron’s *Merlin*. Of the original poem only some five hundred lines survive.Considering that, and the way scribes could elaborate on their sources, we can not now be sure whether the sword in the stone featured in Robert’s own work or not. Whichever is the case, the work does predate the Vulgate Cycle and the other prose works important to this discussion. Before going on we should therefore be clear just what the sword in the stone was, and was not, as it was first presented.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Toohey, Kathleen, King Arthur's Swords][4])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If anyone is interested, you can [read the Prose Merlin online][5].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have not found any *historical* reference to anyone pulling out a sword from a stone. I think this makes sense, because I imagine that it would be hard to put a sword there in the first place. Sarcasm aside, if you find a historical reference to someone pulling a sword our of something, feel free to let me know in the comments.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The following is in response to some of the things said in the original question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm really sorry, but it is not a &quot;theory&quot; that the story of the sword in the stone originated from [Arthurian legend][1]. This is a fact. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. The google document (why didn't you just link to the wikipedia page that the google document is copied from?) is a copy of [the wikipedia page for the movie The Last Legion][2]. This movie is &quot;a 2007 Fantasy film&quot; that combines Arthurian legend with roman history.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. You say that `&quot;Some say that it was based in Rome and Merlin first possessed the sword given and made for Caesar Augustus, who ruled in Rome in 27 BC until 14 AD. Passing down the sword to each generation eventually being thrown into a stone that only a true Caesar could pull out.&quot;` *That is only true in the movie The Last Legion*, which, as stated previously, is a work of fantasy. This is not actual history.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. The legend of the sword in the stone, minus the stuff about Caesar Augustus (which, as stated previously, is from the movie The Last Legion), is from [Arthurian legend][1].  T.H. White is the author of [a children's book][3], which is *also* based on Arthurian legend.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The legend of the sword and the stone is a component of Arthurian legend. Arthurian legend is a collection of old stories about King Arthur. A common feature in many of those stories is the mini-story of the &quot;Sword in the Stone&quot;, which features King Arthur pulling a sword out of a stone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot-project&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Legion&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Once_and_Future_King&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.academia.edu/11478175/King_Arthurs_Swords&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://d.lib.rochester.edu/teams/publication/conlee-prose-merlin" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5216" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1127" RevisionGUID="ebd4bad3-a582-4c9d-8bfa-d7b6c79a10e5" CreationDate="2015-10-27T21:55:59.203" UserId="799" Comment="I want my question to include that as some of my research. Not an answer" Text="Where did the story/myth of the sword in the stone originate?There have been theories of it originating in Rome and England. It is also said to be just a story, but I think otherwise. There is a theory that the book written by &#xD;&#xA;[T.H. White][1] was written based off the myth. All stories involve Merlin, but not all stories are the same. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some say that it was based in Rome and Merlin first possessed the sword given and made for Caesar Augustus, who ruled in Rome in 27 BC until 14 AD. Passing down the sword to each generation eventually being thrown into a stone that only a true Caesar could pull out. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Others say that It was possessed by King Arthur, a British ruler who came of possession of it as a young boy. Merlin possessed it as well, helping him learn as being a teacher and professor to King Arthur.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where did this &quot;story/myth&quot; come from? Was there more than one sword in the stone? What is the origin? What if it is a myth, can we interpret from this?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sword_in_the_Stone" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5218" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1167" RevisionGUID="33042d84-7316-4637-a192-1fc9dbe75aea" CreationDate="2015-10-28T00:22:18.347" UserId="845" Text="I'm looking for other &quot;Mother of Monsters&quot; examples to supplement a post I wrote involving [Lilith and Angrboda and their status as &quot;Mother of Monsters][1].&quot; Over time, I'd like to add more examples to the post, do more analysis, and rework it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Let me know if you object to having your response cut and pasted into the reply section of the post - I'd like to use that to track other examples, for later analysis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any help is much appreciated! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://stevenmlong.com/mother-of-monsters-sisterhood-angrboda-lilith/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5219" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1167" RevisionGUID="33042d84-7316-4637-a192-1fc9dbe75aea" CreationDate="2015-10-28T00:22:18.347" UserId="845" Text="Looking for Mothers of Monsters" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5220" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1167" RevisionGUID="33042d84-7316-4637-a192-1fc9dbe75aea" CreationDate="2015-10-28T00:22:18.347" UserId="845" Text="|norse|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5225" PostHistoryTypeId="8" PostId="1158" RevisionGUID="876b3410-d042-4658-82b9-35fefa03cee3" CreationDate="2015-10-28T11:59:40.953" UserId="108" Comment="Rollback to [301d73fd-5595-415c-b550-284a7a9477a5]" Text="The ship has no name. This storey came to us from Plutarch, who writes that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The ship wherein Theseus and the youth of Athens returned had thirty oars, and was preserved by the Athenians down even to the time of Demetrius Phalereus, for they took away the old planks as they decayed, putting in new and stronger timber in their place, insomuch that this ship became a standing example among the philosophers, for the logical question of things that grow; one side holding that the ship remained the same, and the other contending that it was not the same.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This ships is identified as the one that Ancient Athens used to send to Delos to honour Apollo. That story is preserved by Plato, who explains:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The stern of the ship which the Athenians sent to Delos happened to have been crowned on the day before he was tried ... It is the ship in which, according to Athenian tradition, Theseus went to Crete when he took with him the fourteen youths, and was the saviour of them and of himself. And they are said to have vowed to Apollo at the time, that if they were saved they would send a yearly mission to Delos. Now this custom still continues, and the whole period of the voyage to and from Delos, beginning when the priest of Apollo crowns the stern of the ship, is a holy season.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;No name has been attributed to the ship in either account. Thus, the closest thing to a name for the ship is &quot;Theseus' Ship&quot; or &quot;Ship of Theseus&quot;." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5226" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1158" RevisionGUID="fe0e8483-920d-47f8-b70b-f48731a5bdbc" CreationDate="2015-10-28T12:00:00.330" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="The ship has no name. This story came to us from Plutarch, who writes that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The ship wherein Theseus and the youth of Athens returned had thirty oars, and was preserved by the Athenians down even to the time of Demetrius Phalereus, for they took away the old planks as they decayed, putting in new and stronger timber in their place, insomuch that this ship became a standing example among the philosophers, for the logical question of things that grow; one side holding that the ship remained the same, and the other contending that it was not the same.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This ships is identified as the one that Ancient Athens used to send to Delos to honour Apollo. That story is preserved by Plato, who explains:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The stern of the ship which the Athenians sent to Delos happened to have been crowned on the day before he was tried ... It is the ship in which, according to Athenian tradition, Theseus went to Crete when he took with him the fourteen youths, and was the saviour of them and of himself. And they are said to have vowed to Apollo at the time, that if they were saved they would send a yearly mission to Delos. Now this custom still continues, and the whole period of the voyage to and from Delos, beginning when the priest of Apollo crowns the stern of the ship, is a holy season.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;No name has been attributed to the ship in either account. Thus, the closest thing to a name for the ship is &quot;Theseus' Ship&quot; or &quot;Ship of Theseus&quot;." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5227" PostHistoryTypeId="12" PostId="1158" RevisionGUID="9571fc70-9463-4a0b-8bf8-aa52346eb4a6" CreationDate="2015-10-28T12:15:13.873" UserId="108" Comment="via Vote" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:108,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Semaphore&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="5228" PostHistoryTypeId="13" PostId="1158" RevisionGUID="c1b46d4e-af4a-41c3-9f4a-b83bfab812f1" CreationDate="2015-10-28T12:19:00.007" UserId="108" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:108,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Semaphore&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="5229" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1132" RevisionGUID="7123f024-ee53-4ff8-b588-7dc762d6fe80" CreationDate="2015-10-28T17:01:53.447" UserId="799" Comment="improved formatting" Text="Sources to introduce people into mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5230" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1157" RevisionGUID="b6f4933e-90fc-4c9a-907b-b7c0f556efe4" CreationDate="2015-10-28T17:42:30.640" UserId="799" Comment="improved formatting" Text="Name of the &quot;Ship of Theseus&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5231" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1157" RevisionGUID="b6f4933e-90fc-4c9a-907b-b7c0f556efe4" CreationDate="2015-10-28T17:42:30.640" Comment="Proposed by 799 approved by 852 edit id of 239" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5232" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1157" RevisionGUID="4aaed5f9-db24-48a0-9705-4388e3ce1e28" CreationDate="2015-10-28T17:43:15.863" UserId="852" Comment="edited title" Text="Does the &quot;Ship of Theseus&quot; have a name?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5233" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1167" RevisionGUID="cc730548-9b84-4ec6-b79b-384b8d95e742" CreationDate="2015-10-28T17:49:21.020" UserId="799" Comment="improved formatting" Text="Mothers of Monsters" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5234" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1167" RevisionGUID="cc730548-9b84-4ec6-b79b-384b8d95e742" CreationDate="2015-10-28T17:49:21.020" Comment="Proposed by 799 approved by 108 edit id of 233" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5235" PostHistoryTypeId="7" PostId="1132" RevisionGUID="28628691-a10c-4922-927c-d2f1c2b25ce2" CreationDate="2015-10-28T17:51:56.580" UserId="108" Comment="Rollback to [382d3c13-13f5-4758-a9c8-baba1f8ecdb0]" Text="What are good sources to introduce people to mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5236" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1169" RevisionGUID="f0d71a6c-e689-4392-a63f-8ed01828fcb9" CreationDate="2015-10-28T20:06:42.670" UserId="864" Text="The thirteenth-century writings of Snorri Sturluson are remarkable, but they must be placed in context. He wrote long after conversion, and his work was likely affected by the fogging of the lens caused by time and the shift in beliefs caused by the arrival of Christianity. In addition, Snorri's Iceland was far removed from Scandinavia, so anything that one might say about Iceland might not apply to Norway, Denmark, or Sweden, regardless of the period.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Classifying supernatural beings is always problematic since it depends on the fluid testimonies of informants who might not agree with one another and whose observations can change from time to time. Since people might disagree with the use terms and designations, it is absurd to attach too much importance to these sorts of classifications if one is attempting to understand the folk's belief system.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regardless of how Snorri intended his terms of various supernatural beings, his specific categories would probably have meant very little to the folk themselves who would have likely argued with one another about the merits of Snorri's work. We encounter problems with attempts at rigid taxonomy organized by the early folklorists of the nineteenth century. Although their work is of interest and is always a starting point, we generally move past their attempts at classification with an understanding that the folk did not always &quot;follow the rules&quot; established by the early scholars who attempted to understand folk traditions. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In short, I suggest you not over think what Snorri has to say about these categories." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5237" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1163" RevisionGUID="662a3856-0fb5-4393-be9d-7fda7fa0390d" CreationDate="2015-10-28T20:22:30.790" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 5 characters in body; edited tags" Text="I have a statement from the belief of Scientology:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 75 million years ago Xenu took these thetans to Hawaii and Los Palmas where he subjected them to a kind of brain-washing called &quot;implanting&quot; for 36 days, in which false memories were implanted in their minds to make them servile.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Scientologists call this event &quot;Incident 2&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I was wondering if the locations would be the same places on Earth, namely, Hawaii and Los Palmas, according to the belief. According to my book about geography, I can see that there have been radicall changes on the Earth during the last 75 million years. The continents, and especially the Pacific and American regions, have changed dramatically.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5238" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1163" RevisionGUID="662a3856-0fb5-4393-be9d-7fda7fa0390d" CreationDate="2015-10-28T20:22:30.790" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 5 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|scientology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5240" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1170" RevisionGUID="b4d258fd-b61b-4a1a-b777-9e44b9530619" CreationDate="2015-10-29T08:10:38.030" UserId="871" Text="I do not interpret the tale of Pandora as the recounting of an actual event; no matter how modified or adapted.&#xD;&#xA;Instead, I read this as a &quot;Test:&quot; A test of the honour or obedience of a student or underling to the specific instructions of a &quot;teacher,&quot; deity, spiritual leader, or other superior.&#xD;&#xA;The accounts of gods or holy persons almost invariably contain such &quot;tests:&quot; (This is even found in the Star Wars sagas!) &#xD;&#xA;The detailed &quot;histories&quot; of the persons being tested vary widely, but usually devolve upon specious &quot;explanations&quot; as to why the student had felt justified in being disobedient.&#xD;&#xA;There is always some reason given as to why the &quot;student,&quot; the subject of the tale, had felt that disobedience was appropriate.&#xD;&#xA;That is precisely why these tales are so common!&#xD;&#xA;Obedience is vital if one is to learn and grow!&#xD;&#xA;The god, spiritual leader, shaman, or &quot;superior&quot; in general is daily sharing valuable information with the student. This knowledge constantly builds upon itself, and can be miss-used, if the student is not completely trustworthy.&#xD;&#xA;That is why there are so many &quot;tests:&quot; &#xD;&#xA;The superior must be satisfied that the student will not disobey--- no matter how much &quot;justification&quot; is seemingly presented.&#xD;&#xA;Following the instructions of one's superior(s) completely and implicitly is absolutely vital, in the case of lower-ranking students.&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Situational Ethics,&quot; or obeying one's superior when-ever one imagines it is justified, has no place in metaphysical, spiritual or &quot;holy&quot; instruction!&#xD;&#xA;I had been raised to always obey my parents, and elders: When I came to study under a particular shaman, I was curious when he presented to me a &quot;Pandora&quot; puzzle almost daily.&#xD;&#xA;I always chose to obey the scenario suggested by the god, wizard, etc. in the tale.&#xD;&#xA;I was at last asked why I did as the &quot;elder&quot; had suggested-- did I not have any opinions of my own?&#xD;&#xA;Replying, I said that I had a plethora of opinions, but because I had not been receiving instruction very long, I had little knowledge, and less experience.&#xD;&#xA;Until I had more knowledge and experience, I wanted to learn from the experience of someone wiser, I'd concluded.&#xD;&#xA;Shortly after, I found that my instruction was devoted more to &quot;arcane knowledge&quot; and less to remedial topics.&#xD;&#xA;I had evidently passed my shaman's tests in &quot;Honour&quot; and &quot;Trustworthiness.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;I did not include this to brag in any way,  but rather, to illustrate how an instructor will often test, test, and retest students in &quot;Pandora Matters,&quot; until satisfied with the true character and honesty of the subordinate.&#xD;&#xA;I have done this with students of my own: Two had proven to be persons of honour. &#xD;&#xA;Others, with character traits like cruelty, laziness, or a fondness for &quot;situational ethics,&quot; were asked to leave." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5245" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1172" RevisionGUID="e9aba05a-43f7-456d-8443-7cbfb762a189" CreationDate="2015-10-31T12:06:37.310" UserId="883" Text="I had heard a &quot;traditional&quot; version of the Arthurian legend that was from a source like the Brother's Grimm.  The  CALLEBURNE was a the lightning-struck sword in the stone.  Until it had been hit by lightning and basically re-forged by the intense heat and electrical current, it was a cheap, plain iron sword.  The moss, rust, and scale had built up on it for years and the bolt from the blue added in some new minerals from the moldstone and coke/charcoal from the lichens growing there: re-making it to fine steel.  Some even say that it was one Merlin's early attempt at sword smithing and that he had abandoned the mold as the sprue of steel had run throughout his mold.&#xD;&#xA;_&#xD;&#xA;Something like this:&quot;Mother nature split the rock from way on high and broke away the Sword from the sprues and the lichen, slime, rust, other bits of dead corruption, and the living vines that had over-grown the mold that had become a Stone (in appearance anyway.) The pelting rain that follows the fireworks quenched the nearly molten steel. And perhaps the celestial arch even rendered lodestone (magnetized) of the blade in the process. As the Ore around the now-separated blade remained energized for hours after the jolt, the Field of current at the precipice of that hill would align every sliver of iron as it cooled with the very energy of all the metals deeply within the earth...  What had been Merlin's last failure as a Blacksmith and a beginning Alchemist had been corrected by the powers of the earth itself.  It is apparent to all that knew; Merlin had never actually been wrong, merely a sign of the impatience of his long-forgotten youth... as he could have certainly re-forged the weapon after that first casting went side-wrong.  He simple moved on to his next pyromancing adventure and experiments with new and better alloys of metal.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;-&#xD;&#xA;As I remember reading it...  It had to be over 30-35 years ago.  It seems to me that it was a collection of Irish Folk tales. Though it may as well have been more generically Gaelic tales that were a combination Welsh, Scottish, Norwegian, Belgian, Bretton, or Burgandy French. It was definitely translated/adapted from a non-english European language tale about the British Isles and a Wizard/Druid.   It was told from the POV of one of Merlin's relatives or at least a Druidic practical follower of the old ways of magic and enlightenment.  +I'll continue.This great sword was stolen from the corrupt regime of Arthur as he grew lax in the enforcement of his codes.  It was sold and cut into two separate swords by an opportunistic blacksmith that could make two fantastic single-sided blades from the double-edged Great Sword wonder.  These monstrosities were returned to Merlin, who re-forged them again back to a whole blade as one of his last acts for King Arthur.  To quench the sword, Merlin flung it into the edge of a lake that was drained by a powerful river; while the tip and edge of the new blade was white-hot.  It sang and shrieked as it flew through the night air. (at this point it is supposed that the location of the river is not in England, but Africa. What would later be Lake Victoria, Victoria Falls and a branch of the Nile. The pieces of Calleberne were found by Merlin on a quest of his own, only tangentially related to anything Arthurian.  He retrieved the pieces from the deserts of Arabia, and borrowed a kiln from an Alchemist in the area to re-forge the pieces into what would become Excalibur. Again: Forged by Merlin; perfected and blessed by nature...Then left to be claimed by Arthur, if he was noble enough.)  To retrieve the new sword Arthur would have to make peace with nature and pray to the water sprites that guarded that part of the world.   Then the Lady of the Lake would reveal its location at a bend of the river in a shallow pool, where it had been deposited within the night of it's re-forging.  All that had to happen was for the Queen of Water Nymphs to remove the fog from the King's eyes. He had been fighting in a Crusade and perhaps looking for the Holy Grail. Generally, just lost.  Merlin hoped to give him the path to settle his spirit and the tools to get back to being a decent human again.&#xD;&#xA;=&#xD;&#xA;How I remember bits and pieces of the story that connect the legends of two swords.  One sword that became two and then was made into yet another.More importantly, the connections and emotions that intertwine the lives of men and women with each other and the world around them are explored in a hopeful, romantic, and mystical tale. Like all myths  and legend; they are bent and adapted to the culture to tell the story according to how the Minstrel doing the singing wants to see the story unfold.Of course there is an agenda. Or two." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5246" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1173" RevisionGUID="32a8f3aa-76ee-4964-93b3-81ac6fc79be4" CreationDate="2015-11-02T07:22:27.293" UserId="428" Text="I was reading the question about Harry Potter, [Why 7?](http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/106582/harry-potter-why-7) on SFF, and it got me to think a bit about the mythology of that number. I know that there are plenty of occurences of the number 7, some since quite some time, for example&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Seven days a week (this is probably linked to astronomy and not mythology),&#xD;&#xA;- Seven sins&#xD;&#xA;- ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven) provides a large number of occurences of the number. Yet in popular (western) culture, it is the number the most often associated to some power.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'd be interested to know why 7 is so often associated with some power, some special meaning(s), etc. in culture, religions, myths... Where did it all start?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5247" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1173" RevisionGUID="32a8f3aa-76ee-4964-93b3-81ac6fc79be4" CreationDate="2015-11-02T07:22:27.293" UserId="428" Text="What is the origin of the mythology around the number 7" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5248" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1173" RevisionGUID="32a8f3aa-76ee-4964-93b3-81ac6fc79be4" CreationDate="2015-11-02T07:22:27.293" UserId="428" Text="|numerology|numbers|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5249" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1174" RevisionGUID="1529bbee-a77b-4b3a-bcea-94c44ac393e1" CreationDate="2015-11-02T15:16:21.040" UserId="888" Text="Off the top of my head, I'd say the likeliest early source for the significance of the number 7 is the seven visible &quot;planets&quot; (Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Very important in pre-technical astronomy/astrology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5250" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1173" RevisionGUID="dfda8704-84bb-4e7e-830a-e79f70d783f4" CreationDate="2015-11-02T15:17:53.647" UserId="428" Comment="added 369 characters in body" Text="I was reading the question about Harry Potter, [Why 7?](http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/106582/harry-potter-why-7) on SFF, and it got me to think a bit about the mythology of that number. I know that there are plenty of occurences of the number 7, some since quite some time, for example&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Seven days a week (this is probably linked to astronomy and not mythology),&#xD;&#xA;- Seven sins&#xD;&#xA;- ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven) provides a large number of occurences of the number. Yet in popular (western) culture, it is the number the most often associated to some power.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'd be interested to know why 7 is so often associated with some power, some special meaning(s), etc. in culture, religions, myths... Where did it all start?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Though related, the question [Why is 7 important in mythology and religion?](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/622/why-is-7-important-in-mythology-and-religion) focuses on the meaning of the 7 for some religions/culture, whereas I am more interested in the origin of it. And for that the answer in the related question isn't completely satisfying." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5252" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1173" RevisionGUID="b07baebd-deb6-4062-b951-ec426d7d484c" CreationDate="2015-11-03T04:02:28.520" UserId="108" Comment="Tried to differentiate the questions. A duplicate question lacking an answer is not sufficient reason to ask the same question twice." Text="I was reading [Why 7?](http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/106582/harry-potter-why-7) on SFF, and it got me thinking. I know that there are plenty of occurrences of the number 7 (see for example [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven)), some for quite a long time, for example the seven deadly sins of Christianity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In popular (western) culture, it is the number the most often associated to some supernatural power. There is a question here [on the importance attached to 7 in mythology and religion](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/622/why-is-7-important-in-mythology-and-religion).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What I'm interested in, is why is the number seven so common in mythology? Is there a reason why many different cultures, religions, and folklore put a high importance in the number seven?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Though related, the other question [Why is 7 important in mythology and religion?](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/622/why-is-7-important-in-mythology-and-religion) focuses on the meaning of the 7, whereas I am more interested in the origin of its importance and occurrence." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5253" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1173" RevisionGUID="b07baebd-deb6-4062-b951-ec426d7d484c" CreationDate="2015-11-03T04:02:28.520" UserId="108" Comment="Tried to differentiate the questions. A duplicate question lacking an answer is not sufficient reason to ask the same question twice." Text="How did the importance attached to the number seven originate?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5254" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1173" RevisionGUID="b07baebd-deb6-4062-b951-ec426d7d484c" CreationDate="2015-11-03T04:02:28.520" UserId="108" Comment="Tried to differentiate the questions. A duplicate question lacking an answer is not sufficient reason to ask the same question twice." Text="|comparative|numerology|numbers|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5255" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="622" RevisionGUID="e726e9d3-1020-45a6-89fa-9b6445c97691" CreationDate="2015-11-03T04:05:02.290" UserId="108" Comment="Attempt to clarify a distinction with a related question http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1173/how-did-the-importance-attached-to-the-number-seven-originate" Text="What is the importance of the number seven in mythology and religion?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5258" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1174" RevisionGUID="7090cf20-3d02-48cc-95b1-773ee5b4f5e3" CreationDate="2015-11-03T04:09:16.770" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 24 characters in body" Text="I'd say the likeliest early source for the significance of the number 7 is the seven visible &quot;planets&quot; (Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Very important in pre-technical astronomy/astrology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5259" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1172" RevisionGUID="1ca87297-e2a1-4d14-919a-eeb0bf13df09" CreationDate="2015-11-03T04:12:48.947" UserId="108" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="I had heard a &quot;traditional&quot; version of the Arthurian legend that was from a source like the Brother's Grimm.  The  CALLEBURNE was a the lightning-struck sword in the stone.  Until it had been hit by lightning and basically re-forged by the intense heat and electrical current, it was a cheap, plain iron sword.  The moss, rust, and scale had built up on it for years and the bolt from the blue added in some new minerals from the moldstone and coke/charcoal from the lichens growing there: re-making it to fine steel.  Some even say that it was one Merlin's early attempt at sword smithing and that he had abandoned the mold as the sprue of steel had run throughout his mold.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Something like this:&quot;Mother nature split the rock from way on high and broke away the Sword from the sprues and the lichen, slime, rust, other bits of dead corruption, and the living vines that had over-grown the mold that had become a Stone (in appearance anyway.) The pelting rain that follows the fireworks quenched the nearly molten steel. And perhaps the celestial arch even rendered lodestone (magnetized) of the blade in the process. As the Ore around the now-separated blade remained energized for hours after the jolt, the Field of current at the precipice of that hill would align every sliver of iron as it cooled with the very energy of all the metals deeply within the earth...  What had been Merlin's last failure as a Blacksmith and a beginning Alchemist had been corrected by the powers of the earth itself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is apparent to all that knew; Merlin had never actually been wrong, merely a sign of the impatience of his long-forgotten youth... as he could have certainly re-forged the weapon after that first casting went side-wrong.  He simple moved on to his next pyromancing adventure and experiments with new and better alloys of metal.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As I remember reading it...  It had to be over 30-35 years ago.  It seems to me that it was a collection of Irish Folk tales. Though it may as well have been more generically Gaelic tales that were a combination Welsh, Scottish, Norwegian, Belgian, Bretton, or Burgandy French. It was definitely translated/adapted from a non-english European language tale about the British Isles and a Wizard/Druid.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was told from the POV of one of Merlin's relatives or at least a Druidic practical follower of the old ways of magic and enlightenment.  +I'll continue.This great sword was stolen from the corrupt regime of Arthur as he grew lax in the enforcement of his codes.  It was sold and cut into two separate swords by an opportunistic blacksmith that could make two fantastic single-sided blades from the double-edged Great Sword wonder.  These monstrosities were returned to Merlin, who re-forged them again back to a whole blade as one of his last acts for King Arthur.  To quench the sword, Merlin flung it into the edge of a lake that was drained by a powerful river; while the tip and edge of the new blade was white-hot.  It sang and shrieked as it flew through the night air. (at this point it is supposed that the location of the river is not in England, but Africa. What would later be Lake Victoria, Victoria Falls and a branch of the Nile. The pieces of Calleberne were found by Merlin on a quest of his own, only tangentially related to anything Arthurian.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He retrieved the pieces from the deserts of Arabia, and borrowed a kiln from an Alchemist in the area to re-forge the pieces into what would become Excalibur. Again: Forged by Merlin; perfected and blessed by nature...Then left to be claimed by Arthur, if he was noble enough.)  To retrieve the new sword Arthur would have to make peace with nature and pray to the water sprites that guarded that part of the world.   Then the Lady of the Lake would reveal its location at a bend of the river in a shallow pool, where it had been deposited within the night of it's re-forging.  All that had to happen was for the Queen of Water Nymphs to remove the fog from the King's eyes. He had been fighting in a Crusade and perhaps looking for the Holy Grail. Generally, just lost.  Merlin hoped to give him the path to settle his spirit and the tools to get back to being a decent human again.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How I remember bits and pieces of the story that connect the legends of two swords.  One sword that became two and then was made into yet another.More importantly, the connections and emotions that intertwine the lives of men and women with each other and the world around them are explored in a hopeful, romantic, and mystical tale. Like all myths  and legend; they are bent and adapted to the culture to tell the story according to how the Minstrel doing the singing wants to see the story unfold.Of course there is an agenda. Or two." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5260" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1176" RevisionGUID="65bc82d6-289e-4778-b224-d2281bde109b" CreationDate="2015-11-03T04:38:34.410" UserId="889" Text="When I ask this question, I ask a lot of things.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First, is there a secret name, or perhaps even a sacred name that was used back when people thought vampires were real and would burn them? Like a secret code. Such as young people in schools might call somebody they don't like &quot;Sherin&quot; When they are talking behind the person's back, but in reality, the person's name is &quot;Sharly&quot;. They use a different name than the given to be sneaky.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, are there perhaps different types of vampires? Like some vampires are believed to be immortal, while others are not? So there is a difference between the two, making it obvious there would be different names?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am writing a book, and considering using vampires perhaps, but I would like to be specific, and not calling them just vampires. I want to make sure that if there is a distinct word for different vampires that I use it." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5261" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1176" RevisionGUID="65bc82d6-289e-4778-b224-d2281bde109b" CreationDate="2015-11-03T04:38:34.410" UserId="889" Text="Is there a more proper term for &quot;Vampire&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5262" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1176" RevisionGUID="65bc82d6-289e-4778-b224-d2281bde109b" CreationDate="2015-11-03T04:38:34.410" UserId="889" Text="|mythical-creatures|vampires|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5263" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1177" RevisionGUID="f5cd3800-afb0-4cde-a617-5d5a73b56aac" CreationDate="2015-11-03T15:38:07.433" UserId="110" Text="According to mythology and history Diomedes Married many times. Although we have no record of him divorcing or widowing and given that at the time polygamy wasn't officially allowed (one wife, many mistresses only) we can only assume that from between one marriage and the next there was some sort of divorce or death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5264" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1174" RevisionGUID="00919d3a-7629-465e-91a3-3b58c6709f24" CreationDate="2015-11-03T16:37:34.730" UserId="888" Comment="Added a bit more context, per comments from readers." Text="I'd say the likeliest early source for the significance of the number 7 is the seven visible &quot;planets&quot; (Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's textual evidence of systematic observation of these going back at least as far as the Babylonians (ca. 2000 BCE).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even before that, it seems likely that the ancients were aware of these &quot;wandering stars&quot;." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5265" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1176" RevisionGUID="070e2c28-472e-4b19-b27a-986c709e7e9f" CreationDate="2015-11-04T04:31:45.990" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 341 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Does there exist alternative names for vampires? Perhaps an euphemism; for example, in Harry Potter, those who feared Voldemort called him &quot;He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named&quot; in lieu of his real name. Or perhaps something like a [true name](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_name).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there anything like this with vampires?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To clarify, I don't mean translations of the word vampire in different languages. I am writing a book, and considering using vampires perhaps, but I would like to be specific, and not calling them just vampires." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5266" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1176" RevisionGUID="070e2c28-472e-4b19-b27a-986c709e7e9f" CreationDate="2015-11-04T04:31:45.990" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 341 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Are vampires called anything else in European folklore?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5267" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1176" RevisionGUID="070e2c28-472e-4b19-b27a-986c709e7e9f" CreationDate="2015-11-04T04:31:45.990" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 341 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|mythical-creatures|folklore|vampires|european|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5268" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1154" RevisionGUID="43eab932-b1ea-4271-b7ba-67e1b33200cf" CreationDate="2015-11-04T20:45:47.440" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|irish|celtic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5269" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1178" RevisionGUID="3496cae8-8984-48ce-acd6-a7f70503aad7" CreationDate="2015-11-04T20:47:26.720" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="First of all, let me reiterate that this is a wonderful question, and it's a pity that it's been ignored. I would also like to apologize for taking so long to answer your question: research is never easy, and I haven't had much time lately.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the paper &quot;Origin and Development of the Cesair Legend&quot;, Carey notes that several Celtic stories that appear to be precursors to the story of Cesair feature a more important woman accompanied by &quot;a large retinue of maidens&quot;. I think this raises the question of whether, instead of ~16 wives for each man as your question implies, the story meant one wife and ~15 handmaidens for each man.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or not. As Rees and Rees note in *Celtic Heritage*, a common theme in the five creation stories of the [Lebor Gabala Erenn][1] is the division of Ireland into parts. The division of several woman into three groups mimics the division of other resources at later parts in the Lebor Gabala Erenn (*Celtic Heritage*).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I hope that answers your question!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Works Cited&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rees, Alwyn D., and B. R. Rees. Celtic Heritage: Ancient Tradition in Ireland and Wales. London: Thames and Hudson, 1961. Print. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Carey, John. &quot;Origin and Development of the Cesair Legend.&quot; Éigse 22 (1987): 37-48. Print. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/lebor2.html#26" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5270" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1179" RevisionGUID="47d03b8b-66d9-4a2a-80d2-2e3f0cbd7473" CreationDate="2015-11-04T21:05:48.000" UserId="893" Text="The Halls of Vallhalla and Folkvangr are not halls of the dead eternal. They are merely training grounds and housing of those deemed worthy by the Vanir and Aesir to defend them at Ragnarok. Where Odin is destined to be swallowed whole by the wolf Fenris. The gods need an army and these places serve merely as a housing of that army." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5271" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1178" RevisionGUID="56c0a71e-1772-4fe8-a678-9df2946a971e" CreationDate="2015-11-04T23:18:30.750" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 411 characters in body" Text="First of all, let me reiterate that this is a wonderful question, and it's a pity that it's been ignored. I would also like to apologize for taking so long to answer your question: research is never easy, and I haven't had much time lately.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the paper &quot;Origin and Development of the Cesair Legend&quot;, Carey notes that several Celtic stories that appear to be precursors to the story of Cesair feature a more important woman accompanied by &quot;a large retinue of maidens&quot;. I think this raises the question of whether, instead of ~16 wives for each man as your question implies, the story meant one wife and ~15 handmaidens for each man.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or not. As Rees and Rees note in *Celtic Heritage*, a common theme in the five creation stories of the [Lebor Gabala Erenn][1] is the division of Ireland into parts. The division of several woman into three groups mimics the division of other resources at later parts in the Lebor Gabala Erenn (*Celtic Heritage*).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As evidenced by the fact that the number of women changes from version to version (50, 150, etc), I don't think too much can be read into these numbers. If you are interested, I believe Carey briefly discusses the possibility of a mistranslation from 50 to 150, but again, I'm not sure how important that is. There isn't a special significance to the number 50; it just means that there were a lot of women.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I hope that answers your question!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Works Cited&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rees, Alwyn D., and B. R. Rees. Celtic Heritage: Ancient Tradition in Ireland and Wales. London: Thames and Hudson, 1961. Print. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Carey, John. &quot;Origin and Development of the Cesair Legend.&quot; Éigse 22 (1987): 37-48. Print. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/lebor2.html#26" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5272" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1180" RevisionGUID="18bdde25-5955-4a96-b3f0-42d3a092f97c" CreationDate="2015-11-05T02:34:36.133" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="No. I've done some (admittedly brief) research, and I can't find any mention of vampires having a &quot;code name&quot; that they use to talk about themselves. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Let's talk about your question. Looking at the original revision for the question, your thought process seems to be something like:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. I am writing a book, and I want to include vampires in it.&#xD;&#xA;2. It would be really cool if the vampires had a secret name that they could use to refer to themselves.&#xD;&#xA;3. Maybe Vampires actually (i.e. in mythology) had a secret name that they used to refer to themselves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is nothing &quot;wrong&quot; with this thought process, but it doesn't represent the best way to learn about vampires. If you want to learn more about vampires, the best way is to get a book from [your local library][1], and then ask question here if you are confused about anything the book says. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, if you want to write a book about vampires, I would just use your imagination, and not worry about about whether your story corresponds to mythology. Your book is going to be judged on how interesting/entertaining/thought provoking it is; no one is going to go through your book to make sure that everything you say about vampires is correct.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you really want to write a realistic book about vampires (not that vampires are realistic), again, my advice is to go to a library and find a book about vampires. Whether vampires use code names is only a small piece of information you need to know about vampires: you also need to know more about what vampires look like, their personality, etc. The best place to learn about all of that would be a book from your local library.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Just my two cents.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.worldcat.org/libraries" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5273" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1178" RevisionGUID="13cec144-f6a3-4204-83d6-78dd68fb5287" CreationDate="2015-11-05T16:39:48.943" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 36 characters in body" Text="First of all, let me reiterate that this is a wonderful question, and it's a pity that it's been ignored. I would also like to apologize for taking so long to answer your question: research is never easy, and I haven't had much time lately.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the paper &quot;Origin and Development of the Cesair Legend&quot;, Carey notes that several Celtic stories that appear to be precursors to the story of Cesair feature a more important woman accompanied by &quot;a large retinue of maidens&quot;. I think this raises the question of whether, instead of ~16 wives for each man as your question implies, the story meant one wife and ~15 handmaidens for each man.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding the division of the women: as Rees and Rees note in *Celtic Heritage*, a common theme in the five creation stories of the [Lebor Gabala Erenn][1] is the division of Ireland into parts. The division of several woman into three groups mimics the division of other resources at later parts in the Lebor Gabala Erenn (*Celtic Heritage*).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As evidenced by the fact that the number of women changes from version to version (50, 150, etc), I don't think too much can be read into these specific numbers. If you are interested, I believe Carey briefly discusses the possibility of a mistranslation from 50 to 150, but again, I'm not sure how important that is. There isn't a special significance to the number 50; it just means that there were a lot of women.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I hope that answers your question!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Works Cited&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rees, Alwyn D., and B. R. Rees. Celtic Heritage: Ancient Tradition in Ireland and Wales. London: Thames and Hudson, 1961. Print. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Carey, John. &quot;Origin and Development of the Cesair Legend.&quot; Éigse 22 (1987): 37-48. Print. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/lebor2.html#26" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5274" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1181" RevisionGUID="18943d1b-6f27-49e7-9524-f309fd19d94c" CreationDate="2015-11-06T01:43:51.703" UserId="565" Text="I've wondered about this very thing myself.  I like the 'planetary' answer, but perhaps the answer is simpler.  Primitives knew to break up the 28 days of a lunar month into quarters --  cf. early English sennight and fortnight. A regular cycle of time-keeping based on the 'magic' number seven is remarkably convenient -- more so than one based on the numbers two, four, or fourteen.  Perhaps the natural, cyclic use of a magic number is what eventually turned it into a sacred number -- cf. creation in Genesis. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5276" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="946" RevisionGUID="32286001-ea94-49d9-93f2-c88d7e85a4e2" CreationDate="2015-11-09T01:45:07.057" UserId="461" Comment="I think I jumped too much. I'm trying to fill the gap." Text="It's not about fruits vs animals. If Abel worked the soil, his offering would have been favored. The key is that Abel gave the best of him - the firstborn. Cain did not.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Say, you are a father and you have two children. You love them both and know too well. You've seen them grow. One gives you the best of his. You will surely know that it's his best, because you've seen them so much, you know what they consider precious and what they don't like. Another gives you something he doesn't like. It's still okay because you love him, but if he pretends like it's his best, you won't be pleased, not because you don't love him, but because he's lying. The Cain and Abel case is similar to this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Offering and the one who gives offering are not separated. If the offerer is defiled, the offering is defiled too.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Your feeling, your thoughts, your deeds, your knowledge and everything of you have impacts on the offering.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On Leviticus, God instructs how you make various offerings on various situation: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When you offer fine flours as a gift to God (Lev 2): It must be 'fine' flours and it's not easy to grind fine flours especially in the old times. He also has to pour oil on it. And again, it's not easy to extract oil in the old times. If the offerer is with a thankful heart, he will do it with a joy and it won't be a chore to him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And sin offering via animal sacrifices (Lev 4): the sacrificer puts his hands on the animal, and kills the animal by himself. It signifies that even though he should be dead because of his sin, but the animal is killed on behalf of him and his sin. He repents while doing so and it's accepted. If not, it's not an offering but a slaughter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These knowledge are expressed throughout the whole Bible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, the New Testament mentions Abel. Heb 11:4 says, 'By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice.'&#xD;&#xA;And there are all kinds of faith in the same chapter: faith on God's very existence, his goodness, his joy, his love, his righteousness, his faithfulness, his vision, and his power.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It may look fuzzy, but it's really about having a personal relationship with God. God is not an object. If you have a healthy relationship with Father or Mother, how you are going to express your thankfulness to them? How about when you feel sorry? How about to your Husband or Wife? With God, you are having a relationship with the original one. God is our original as he created man in his image.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I recently became a father by myself and I thank God for the blessing. I could understand this matter better. Amen." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5279" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1183" RevisionGUID="344d49fe-1de4-4f45-ae70-7dab20c31f37" CreationDate="2015-11-09T10:27:49.900" UserId="908" Text="It is said that that there are 7 chakaras in Human body. Please search &quot;7 chakras meditation&quot; on Google Images. Which are at times said to be related to the 7 colors of rainbow, Which are also in the same sequence, VIBGYOR. From Head to toe. &#xD;&#xA;Having activated all the 7 chakras in a human body is a person which complete knowledge of the spirituality, about the Jiv,atma, Janardana, and relation of jiv -atma-janardana. These chakras can be activated by particular humming or chating sound of typical letters. As mythology and Hindiuism always have expressed phsycological conserns about human mind, I believe that 7 have has to be related to these chakras. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5280" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1184" RevisionGUID="93824aa2-becc-4ce1-9aba-0bdf3a2706fb" CreationDate="2015-11-10T09:02:09.673" UserId="913" Text="I know that with the Bible, there are countless translations. Things always seem to get lost in translation. Seeing as how I can't read the native language that the Kalevala was originally written in, which translation is the most accurate?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5281" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1184" RevisionGUID="93824aa2-becc-4ce1-9aba-0bdf3a2706fb" CreationDate="2015-11-10T09:02:09.673" UserId="913" Text="Kalevala Translations" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5282" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1184" RevisionGUID="93824aa2-becc-4ce1-9aba-0bdf3a2706fb" CreationDate="2015-11-10T09:02:09.673" UserId="913" Text="|norse|kalevala|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5283" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1184" RevisionGUID="6f55dff0-7577-4a10-ab77-560a7fdc61e2" CreationDate="2015-11-10T12:21:12.930" UserId="108" Comment="added 29 characters in body" Text="I know that with the Bible, there are countless translations. Things always seem to get lost in translation. Seeing as how I can't read the native language that the Kalevala was originally written in, which translation is considered by scholars to be the most accurate?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5284" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1185" RevisionGUID="80982ce2-937f-488f-96a8-d3aafdc292ec" CreationDate="2015-11-10T17:25:16.563" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="In general, you can judge the accuracy/quality of a translation using a number of factors:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. How old is the translation? Older translations are more likely to contain mistakes for a number of reasons, while newer translations are more likely to reflect a modern scholarly understanding of the text. Translations on the internet are usually older, because really old texts become public domain and can be posted on the internet without legal consequences.&#xD;&#xA;2. Who is the translation marketed to? For example, some translations of myths are designed for children, which makes them less accurate. &#xD;&#xA;3. What do academics say about the translation? If you look on a site like [JStor][1], you can sometimes find reviews by academics of other books, including translations. These reviews are brief (1-2 pages), and will point out any major problems with the text. You can usually get access to JStor through a local library.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding the Kalevala, I found this [well-researched article that discusses the various translations of the Kalevala][2]. It doesn't recommend any specific translations, but it does talk about the motivations behind translating the Kalevala. You might also be interested in this [scholarly article about translating the Kalevala][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I can't recommend a &quot;best&quot; translation, in part because that's a subjective question, and in part because I'm not very familiar with the Kalevala. However, I think I've given you enough information to choose a translation that works for you.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://jstor.com&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.folklorefellows.fi/?page_id=786&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.erudit.org/revue/meta/2006/v/n4/014343ar.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5285" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1185" RevisionGUID="0ad3255b-1559-47a9-87e3-ede2052be03f" CreationDate="2015-11-10T22:37:46.803" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 321 characters in body" Text="In general, you can judge the accuracy/quality of a translation using a number of factors:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. How old is the translation? Older translations are more likely to contain mistakes for a number of reasons, while newer translations are more likely to reflect a modern scholarly understanding of the text. Translations on the internet are usually older, because really old texts become public domain and can be posted on the internet without legal consequences.&#xD;&#xA;2. Who is the translation marketed to? For example, some translations of myths are designed for children, which makes them less accurate. &#xD;&#xA;3. What do academics say about the translation? If you look on a site like [JStor][1], you can sometimes find reviews by academics of other books, including translations. These reviews are brief (1-2 pages), and will point out any major problems with the text. You can usually get access to JStor through a local library.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You should know that serious scholars of texts like the Kalevala read the Kalevala in the language it was originally written in (the same goes for something like Greek Mythology). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding the Kalevala, I found this [well-researched article that discusses the various translations of the Kalevala][2]. It doesn't recommend any specific translations, but it does talk about the motivations behind translating the Kalevala. You might also be interested in this [scholarly article about translating the Kalevala][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You asked for a specific translation, so let me say that [this translation by Keith Bosley looks like it meets your needs][4]. I can't say that it's the &quot;best&quot; translation, in part because that is a very subjective question, but it should be good enough for what you are trying to accomplish. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://jstor.com&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.folklorefellows.fi/?page_id=786&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.erudit.org/revue/meta/2006/v/n4/014343ar.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/kalevala/oclc/60181009&amp;referer=brief_results" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5286" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1185" RevisionGUID="11a76795-e645-488d-8aab-a65a5252c6a9" CreationDate="2015-11-10T22:44:01.750" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 321 characters in body" Text="In general, you can judge the accuracy/quality of a translation using a number of factors:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. How old is the translation? Older translations are more likely to contain mistakes for a number of reasons, while newer translations are more likely to reflect a modern scholarly understanding of the text. Translations on the internet are usually older, because really old texts become public domain and can be posted on the internet without legal consequences.&#xD;&#xA;2. Who is the translation marketed to? For example, some translations of myths are designed for children, which makes them less accurate. &#xD;&#xA;3. What do academics say about the translation? If you look on a site like [JStor][1], you can sometimes find reviews by academics of other books, including translations. These reviews are brief (1-2 pages), and will point out any major problems with the text. You can usually get access to JStor through a local library.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You should know that serious scholars of texts like the Kalevala read the Kalevala in the language it was originally written in (the same goes for something like Greek Mythology, and even for the Bible). All translations contain inaccuracies, and no translation is capable to rendering all of the puns, rhythm, and linguistic features of a foreign text. However, unless you are a serious scholar, a modern translation of the Kalevala should be *good enough* for your needs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding the Kalevala, I found this [well-researched article that discusses the various translations of the Kalevala][2]. It doesn't recommend any specific translations, but it does talk about the motivations behind translating the Kalevala. You might also be interested in this [scholarly article about translating the Kalevala][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You asked for a specific translation, so let me say that [this translation by Keith Bosley appears to be a accurate and entertaining translation][4]. I can't say that it's the &quot;best&quot; translation, in part because that is a very subjective question, but it should be good enough for what you are trying to accomplish.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://jstor.com&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.folklorefellows.fi/?page_id=786&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.erudit.org/revue/meta/2006/v/n4/014343ar.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/kalevala/oclc/60181009&amp;referer=brief_results" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5289" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1186" RevisionGUID="25218c6a-177d-4972-b8bb-aef2ed1db8b1" CreationDate="2015-11-11T22:24:55.677" UserId="183" Text="At the end of [*Gawain and the Green Knight*](http://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/text/weston-sir-gawain-and-the-green-knight) (Weston's translation) says to Gawain&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  &quot;Bernlak de Hautdesert am I called in this land. Morgain le Fay dwelleth in mine house, and through knowledge of clerkly craft hath she taken many. For long time was she the mistress of Merlin, who knew well all you knights of the court. Morgain the goddess is she called therefore, and there is none so haughty but she can bring him low. She sent me in this guise to yon fair hall to test the truth of the renown that is spread abroad of the valour of the Round Table. She taught me this marvel to betray your wits, to vex Guinevere and fright her to death by the man who spake with his head in his hand at the high table. That is she who is at home, that ancient lady, she is even thine aunt, Arthur's half-sister, the daughter of the Duchess of Tintagel, who afterward married King Uther. Therefore I bid thee, knight, come to thine aunt, and make merry in thine house; my folk love thee, and I wish thee as well as any man on earth, by my faith, for thy true dealing.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This seems to be quite a cordial attitude, considering that the two have been acting as foes for the entire tale up until this point. I initially read Tolkien's translation, and interpreted it as saying that Morgain bewitched Bernlak (also called Bertilak) and kept him under a spell. However, it Bernlak's actions here suggest that he is no longer under such a spell, as he voluntarily gives away the information. At the same time, it seems odd that he would willingly carry out Morgain's wishes, as he seems to bear no enmity towards Guinevere or Arthur, nor could easily profit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was the Green Knight willing to fight Gawain, or was he forced to under a spell?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5290" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1186" RevisionGUID="25218c6a-177d-4972-b8bb-aef2ed1db8b1" CreationDate="2015-11-11T22:24:55.677" UserId="183" Text="Did the Green Knight fight Gawain against his will?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5291" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1186" RevisionGUID="25218c6a-177d-4972-b8bb-aef2ed1db8b1" CreationDate="2015-11-11T22:24:55.677" UserId="183" Text="|arthurian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5298" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1190" RevisionGUID="e856cf5f-0ef3-4cbc-ae92-b0db2a3299dc" CreationDate="2015-11-23T06:35:14.417" UserId="946" Text="Hecate, Artemis and Selene are one in the same.  Artemis is known as the Goddess of the Triple Aspect because she has three identities.  Artemis is the virgin goddess of the hunt (Earth form), Selene is goddess of the moon (sky form) and Hecate is the goddess of witchcraft and the underworld (cthonian/underworld form).  We can see this in depictions of Artemis wearing the &quot;horns of the moon&quot; on her crown, or images of Hecate as a three-faced goddess.  It is possible that at some point they were separate deities and their stories became confused by later Greeks and Romans but our current understanding is of the three as different aspects of one. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source: Classics 430 class at University" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5302" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1191" RevisionGUID="c2ab20fa-6548-46d5-93ec-3817b3fe1532" CreationDate="2015-11-24T05:49:48.690" UserId="709" Text="In this question a focus would be something needed to cast a spell properly or something that channels magic or something that allows magic to be cast. (Which could include a magically enchanted item)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In most Myths and Legends that I'm aware of when referring to Magic we normally have the caster using a wand or a staff, scepters are also popular. I'm not well versed in Chinese Mythology at all and so I am wondering what type of objects are used in this manner in their Mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**What objects allowed the users to cast/channel/focus magic either from the user or from the object in Chinese Mythology?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*I may even consider a grimoire or tome like object if just for sake of completeness*" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5303" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1191" RevisionGUID="c2ab20fa-6548-46d5-93ec-3817b3fe1532" CreationDate="2015-11-24T05:49:48.690" UserId="709" Text="What were popular magical focuses in Chinese Mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5304" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1191" RevisionGUID="c2ab20fa-6548-46d5-93ec-3817b3fe1532" CreationDate="2015-11-24T05:49:48.690" UserId="709" Text="|chinese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5305" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1133" RevisionGUID="2e8e1da3-dda6-4b85-8880-5fa18d9fa46b" CreationDate="2015-11-24T06:07:25.333" UserId="709" Comment="added 227 characters in body" Text="Welcome to the site, and welcome to the interesting world of mythology! Here are some resources for you to get started with.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By far the easiest way to learn more about mythology is to go to [your local library][1] and borrow one of their books about mythology. Don't worry about selecting the &quot;right&quot; source; just select a book that looks interesting to you. Remember, you are a beginner, therefore you don't know anything about mythology, and therefore *any* book will teach you something new.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, we recognize that not everyone can or would like to browse a library, and therefore have created a list of both online and offline resources. This list is by no means exhaustive: its purpose is merely to introduce the reader to a variety of sources about mythology. *Please do not be frightened by the amount of sources listed below: just choose a book or website that looks interesting and read it.* These books and websites are all interesting, so don't worry about choosing the &quot;wrong&quot; one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note to the reader: online sources have an *online* marker next to them. Offline sources link to the corresponding page on [worldcat.org][2], which will tell you whether the book is located in a library near you.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# General Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Collections of myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Creation Stories from around the World][3] -- *online* collection of creation myths from various cultures.&#xD;&#xA;2. [Sacred-Texts.com][4] -- an *online* database of translated myths and other sacred texts.&#xD;&#xA;3. [World Mythology][5]&#xD;&#xA;4. [Oxford Companion to World Mythology][6]&#xD;&#xA;5. [Handbook of World Mythology][7] &#xD;&#xA;6. [Gods, Heroes, and Monsters: A Sourcebook of Greek, Roman, and Near Eastern Myths in Translation][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Mythical Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Encyclopedia Mythica][9] -- an *online* encyclopedia about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Easier Texts&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For younger readers and those who’d like a more lively presentation before tackling the originals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [D’Aulaires’ Book of Greek Myths][10]: illustrated, readable, and blunt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. [D’Aulaires’ Book of Norse Myths][11]: illustrated, readable, and blunt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. [The Greek Gods][12], by Evslin, Evslin, and Hoopes. Not a long book but easy to read, and the one which got me hooked on mythology in elementary school.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. [The Adventures of Ulysses][13], Bernard Evslin: a highly readable and entertaining version of *The Odyssey.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I recommend anything by the D’Aulaires and the Evslins in general.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Mesopotamian Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Sumerian Mythology: A Study of Spiritual and Literary Achievement in the Third Millennium B.C.][14]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. [The Electronic Corpus of Sumerian Literature: Narrative Works][15]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Greek Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Homer's [Iliad](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Ilhome.htm) and [Odyssey](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Odhome.htm)&#xD;&#xA;2. Hesiod's [Theogony](http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm) -- an *online* translation of the Greek creation myth.&#xD;&#xA;3. [Homeric Hymns](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HomericHymns1.html)&#xD;&#xA;4. Pindar's [Victory Odes](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0162%3Abook%3DO)&#xD;&#xA;5. Apollonius of Rhodes' [Argonautica](http://www.theoi.com/Text/ApolloniusRhodius1.html)&#xD;&#xA;6. Pseudo-Apollodorus' [Bibliotecha](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus1.html)&#xD;&#xA;3. Ovid's &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.worldcat.org/title/metamorphoses-of-ovid/oclc/17197438&quot;&gt;Metamorphoses&lt;/a&gt;, plus a downloadable version &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.poetryintranslation.com/klineasovid.htm&quot;&gt;here.&lt;/a&gt; A loosely-structured &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphoses&quot;&gt;narrative poem&lt;/a&gt; covering many of the classic Greek myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias and Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Timothy Gantz, *Early Greek Myth*&#xD;&#xA;1. [Theoi][16] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Greek gods, creatures, and myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Celtic Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Four Branches of the Mabinogi][17]: an *online* translation of a classic collection of [tag:welsh] myths.&#xD;&#xA;2. [CELT][18]-- a fantastic *online* database of [tag:irish] literature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Celtic Heritage][19]&#xD;&#xA;2. [The Camelot Project][20] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Arthurian myth and legend.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Norse Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations Of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. [The Norse Myths][21] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Norse Mythology for Smart People][22] -- an *online* encyclopedia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Mesoamerican / Central American&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Flayed God][23]&#xD;&#xA;2. The Popol Vuh: translations exist online: you can choose between a [literal translation][24] and a [less literal translation][25].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Miscellaneous Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Blogs about Mythology***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Mythology Matters][26] -- an *online* blog about mythology written by one of our own contributors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The New York Public Library's Recommended Mythology Links][27] -- an *online* collection of high-quality websites about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Interesting Articles***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The autobiography of John (William) Bierhorst][28] -- a short *online* autobiography of a man who translates native american myths for a living. It's a shortish and easy read.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.worldcat.org/libraries&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.worldcat.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/CS/CSIndex.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/world-mythology/oclc/27678612&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/oxford-companion-to-world-mythology/oclc/60492027&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/handbook-of-world-mythology/oclc/61151643&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/gods-heroes-and-monsters-a-sourcebook-of-greek-roman-and-near-eastern-myths-in-translation/oclc/842323102&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.pantheon.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/daulaires-book-of-greek-myths/oclc/779214769&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/daulaires-book-of-norse-myths/oclc/57311921&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/greek-gods/oclc/23595215&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/adventures-of-ulysses/oclc/22418476&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/sumerian-mythology-a-study-of-spiritual-and-literary-achievement-in-the-third-millennium-bc/oclc/322805&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=c.1*#&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: http://www.theoi.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: http://mabinogi.net/translations.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: http://www.ucc.ie/celt/&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/celtic-heritage-ancient-tradition-in-ireland-and-wales/oclc/53330832&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: http://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot-project&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: http://www.amazon.com/Norse-Myths-Pantheon-Folklore-Library/dp/0394748468/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1448344900&amp;sr=8-1&amp;keywords=Norse%20Kevin%20Crossley-Holland&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: http://norse-mythology.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/flayed-god-the-mesoamerican-mythological-tradition-sacred-texts-and-images-from-pre-columbian-mexico-and-central-america/oclc/183418728?referer=di&amp;ht=edition&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: http://www.mesoweb.com/publications/Christenson/PV-Literal.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: http://www.mesoweb.com/publications/Christenson/PopolVuh.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: https://mythologymatters.wordpress.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [27]: http://www.nypl.org/weblinks/1279&#xD;&#xA;  [28]: http://biography.jrank.org/pages/224/Bierhorst-John-William-1936.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5306" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1133" RevisionGUID="7b60607f-4aab-4f38-a232-01deb3fd7ff5" CreationDate="2015-11-24T08:15:33.760" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="I moved  CandiedMango's link to the children's section (because the book in question was marketed to children)" Text="Welcome to the site, and welcome to the interesting world of mythology! Here are some resources for you to get started with.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By far the easiest way to learn more about mythology is to go to [your local library][1] and borrow one of their books about mythology. Don't worry about selecting the &quot;right&quot; source; just select a book that looks interesting to you. Remember, you are a beginner, therefore you don't know anything about mythology, and therefore *any* book will teach you something new.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, we recognize that not everyone can or would like to browse a library, and therefore have created a list of both online and offline resources. This list is by no means exhaustive: its purpose is merely to introduce the reader to a variety of sources about mythology. *Please do not be frightened by the amount of sources listed below: just choose a book or website that looks interesting and read it.* These books and websites are all interesting, so don't worry about choosing the &quot;wrong&quot; one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note to the reader: online sources have an *online* marker next to them. Offline sources link to the corresponding page on [worldcat.org][2], which will tell you whether the book is located in a library near you.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# General Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Collections of myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Creation Stories from around the World][3] -- *online* collection of creation myths from various cultures.&#xD;&#xA;2. [Sacred-Texts.com][4] -- an *online* database of translated myths and other sacred texts.&#xD;&#xA;3. [World Mythology][5]&#xD;&#xA;4. [Oxford Companion to World Mythology][6]&#xD;&#xA;5. [Handbook of World Mythology][7] &#xD;&#xA;6. [Gods, Heroes, and Monsters: A Sourcebook of Greek, Roman, and Near Eastern Myths in Translation][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Mythical Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Encyclopedia Mythica][9] -- an *online* encyclopedia about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Easier Texts&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For younger readers and those who’d like a more lively presentation before tackling the originals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [D’Aulaires’ Book of Greek Myths][10]: illustrated, readable, and blunt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. [D’Aulaires’ Book of Norse Myths][11]: illustrated, readable, and blunt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. [The Greek Gods][12], by Evslin, Evslin, and Hoopes. Not a long book but easy to read, and the one which got me hooked on mythology in elementary school.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. [The Adventures of Ulysses][13], Bernard Evslin: a highly readable and entertaining version of *The Odyssey.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;5. [The Norse Myths][14], Kevin Crossley-Holland.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I recommend anything by the D’Aulaires and the Evslins in general.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Mesopotamian Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Sumerian Mythology: A Study of Spiritual and Literary Achievement in the Third Millennium B.C.][15]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. [The Electronic Corpus of Sumerian Literature: Narrative Works][16]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Greek Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Homer's [Iliad](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Ilhome.htm) and [Odyssey](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Odhome.htm)&#xD;&#xA;2. Hesiod's [Theogony](http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm) -- an *online* translation of the Greek creation myth.&#xD;&#xA;3. [Homeric Hymns](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HomericHymns1.html)&#xD;&#xA;4. Pindar's [Victory Odes](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0162%3Abook%3DO)&#xD;&#xA;5. Apollonius of Rhodes' [Argonautica](http://www.theoi.com/Text/ApolloniusRhodius1.html)&#xD;&#xA;6. Pseudo-Apollodorus' [Bibliotecha](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus1.html)&#xD;&#xA;3. Ovid's &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.worldcat.org/title/metamorphoses-of-ovid/oclc/17197438&quot;&gt;Metamorphoses&lt;/a&gt;, plus a downloadable version &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.poetryintranslation.com/klineasovid.htm&quot;&gt;here.&lt;/a&gt; A loosely-structured &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphoses&quot;&gt;narrative poem&lt;/a&gt; covering many of the classic Greek myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias and Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Timothy Gantz, *Early Greek Myth*&#xD;&#xA;1. [Theoi][17] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Greek gods, creatures, and myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Celtic Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Four Branches of the Mabinogi][18]: an *online* translation of a classic collection of [tag:welsh] myths.&#xD;&#xA;2. [CELT][19]-- a fantastic *online* database of [tag:irish] literature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Celtic Heritage][20]&#xD;&#xA;2. [The Camelot Project][21] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Arthurian myth and legend.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Norse Mythology &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Norse Mythology for Smart People][23] -- an *online* encyclopedia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Mesoamerican / Central American&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Flayed God][24]&#xD;&#xA;2. The Popol Vuh: translations exist online: you can choose between a [literal translation][25] and a [less literal translation][26].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Miscellaneous Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Blogs about Mythology***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Mythology Matters][27] -- an *online* blog about mythology written by one of our own contributors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The New York Public Library's Recommended Mythology Links][28] -- an *online* collection of high-quality websites about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Interesting Articles***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The autobiography of John (William) Bierhorst][29] -- a short *online* autobiography of a man who translates native american myths for a living. It's a shortish and easy read.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.worldcat.org/libraries&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.worldcat.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/CS/CSIndex.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/world-mythology/oclc/27678612&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/oxford-companion-to-world-mythology/oclc/60492027&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/handbook-of-world-mythology/oclc/61151643&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/gods-heroes-and-monsters-a-sourcebook-of-greek-roman-and-near-eastern-myths-in-translation/oclc/842323102&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.pantheon.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/daulaires-book-of-greek-myths/oclc/779214769&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/daulaires-book-of-norse-myths/oclc/57311921&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/greek-gods/oclc/23595215&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/adventures-of-ulysses/oclc/22418476&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/norse-myths/oclc/6223744&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/sumerian-mythology-a-study-of-spiritual-and-literary-achievement-in-the-third-millennium-bc/oclc/322805&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=c.1*#&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: http://www.theoi.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: http://mabinogi.net/translations.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: http://www.ucc.ie/celt/&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/celtic-heritage-ancient-tradition-in-ireland-and-wales/oclc/53330832&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: http://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot-project&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: http://www.amazon.com/Norse-Myths-Pantheon-Folklore-Library/dp/0394748468/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1448344900&amp;sr=8-1&amp;keywords=Norse%20Kevin%20Crossley-Holland&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: http://norse-mythology.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/flayed-god-the-mesoamerican-mythological-tradition-sacred-texts-and-images-from-pre-columbian-mexico-and-central-america/oclc/183418728?referer=di&amp;ht=edition&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: http://www.mesoweb.com/publications/Christenson/PV-Literal.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: http://www.mesoweb.com/publications/Christenson/PopolVuh.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [27]: https://mythologymatters.wordpress.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [28]: http://www.nypl.org/weblinks/1279&#xD;&#xA;  [29]: http://biography.jrank.org/pages/224/Bierhorst-John-William-1936.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5307" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1133" RevisionGUID="140a1f30-9aa7-4ef0-8dbb-ba9750b74c8e" CreationDate="2015-11-24T08:25:44.280" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="I've changed my mind, the book does belong in the Norse section. However, it is NOT a translation (hence my confusion)" Text="Welcome to the site, and welcome to the interesting world of mythology! Here are some resources for you to get started with.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By far the easiest way to learn more about mythology is to go to [your local library][1] and borrow one of their books about mythology. Don't worry about selecting the &quot;right&quot; source; just select a book that looks interesting to you. Remember, you are a beginner, therefore you don't know anything about mythology, and therefore *any* book will teach you something new.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, we recognize that not everyone can or would like to browse a library, and therefore have created a list of both online and offline resources. This list is by no means exhaustive: its purpose is merely to introduce the reader to a variety of sources about mythology. *Please do not be frightened by the amount of sources listed below: just choose a book or website that looks interesting and read it.* These books and websites are all interesting, so don't worry about choosing the &quot;wrong&quot; one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note to the reader: online sources have an *online* marker next to them. Offline sources link to the corresponding page on [worldcat.org][2], which will tell you whether the book is located in a library near you.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# General Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Collections of myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Creation Stories from around the World][3] -- *online* collection of creation myths from various cultures.&#xD;&#xA;2. [Sacred-Texts.com][4] -- an *online* database of translated myths and other sacred texts.&#xD;&#xA;3. [World Mythology][5]&#xD;&#xA;4. [Oxford Companion to World Mythology][6]&#xD;&#xA;5. [Handbook of World Mythology][7] &#xD;&#xA;6. [Gods, Heroes, and Monsters: A Sourcebook of Greek, Roman, and Near Eastern Myths in Translation][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Mythical Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Encyclopedia Mythica][9] -- an *online* encyclopedia about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Easier Texts&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For younger readers and those who’d like a more lively presentation before tackling the originals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [D’Aulaires’ Book of Greek Myths][10]: illustrated, readable, and blunt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. [D’Aulaires’ Book of Norse Myths][11]: illustrated, readable, and blunt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. [The Greek Gods][12], by Evslin, Evslin, and Hoopes. Not a long book but easy to read, and the one which got me hooked on mythology in elementary school.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. [The Adventures of Ulysses][13], Bernard Evslin: a highly readable and entertaining version of *The Odyssey.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I recommend anything by the D’Aulaires and the Evslins in general.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Mesopotamian Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Sumerian Mythology: A Study of Spiritual and Literary Achievement in the Third Millennium B.C.][15]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. [The Electronic Corpus of Sumerian Literature: Narrative Works][16]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Greek Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Homer's [Iliad](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Ilhome.htm) and [Odyssey](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Odhome.htm)&#xD;&#xA;2. Hesiod's [Theogony](http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm) -- an *online* translation of the Greek creation myth.&#xD;&#xA;3. [Homeric Hymns](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HomericHymns1.html)&#xD;&#xA;4. Pindar's [Victory Odes](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0162%3Abook%3DO)&#xD;&#xA;5. Apollonius of Rhodes' [Argonautica](http://www.theoi.com/Text/ApolloniusRhodius1.html)&#xD;&#xA;6. Pseudo-Apollodorus' [Bibliotecha](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus1.html)&#xD;&#xA;3. Ovid's &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.worldcat.org/title/metamorphoses-of-ovid/oclc/17197438&quot;&gt;Metamorphoses&lt;/a&gt;, plus a downloadable version &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.poetryintranslation.com/klineasovid.htm&quot;&gt;here.&lt;/a&gt; A loosely-structured &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphoses&quot;&gt;narrative poem&lt;/a&gt; covering many of the classic Greek myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias and Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Timothy Gantz, *Early Greek Myth*&#xD;&#xA;1. [Theoi][17] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Greek gods, creatures, and myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Celtic Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Four Branches of the Mabinogi][18]: an *online* translation of a classic collection of [tag:welsh] myths.&#xD;&#xA;2. [CELT][19]-- a fantastic *online* database of [tag:irish] literature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Celtic Heritage][20]&#xD;&#xA;2. [The Camelot Project][21] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Arthurian myth and legend.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Norse Mythology &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Norse Mythology for Smart People][23] -- an *online* encyclopedia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Retellings of Myths**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Norse Myths][14], Kevin Crossley-Holland, a readable and clear collection of some of the more important Norse myths. NOTE: not a direct translation of a primary source.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Mesoamerican / Central American&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Flayed God][24]&#xD;&#xA;2. The Popol Vuh: translations exist online: you can choose between a [literal translation][25] and a [less literal translation][26].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Miscellaneous Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Blogs about Mythology***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Mythology Matters][27] -- an *online* blog about mythology written by one of our own contributors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The New York Public Library's Recommended Mythology Links][28] -- an *online* collection of high-quality websites about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Interesting Articles***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The autobiography of John (William) Bierhorst][29] -- a short *online* autobiography of a man who translates native american myths for a living. It's a shortish and easy read.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.worldcat.org/libraries&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.worldcat.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/CS/CSIndex.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/world-mythology/oclc/27678612&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/oxford-companion-to-world-mythology/oclc/60492027&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/handbook-of-world-mythology/oclc/61151643&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/gods-heroes-and-monsters-a-sourcebook-of-greek-roman-and-near-eastern-myths-in-translation/oclc/842323102&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.pantheon.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/daulaires-book-of-greek-myths/oclc/779214769&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/daulaires-book-of-norse-myths/oclc/57311921&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/greek-gods/oclc/23595215&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/adventures-of-ulysses/oclc/22418476&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/norse-myths/oclc/6223744&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/sumerian-mythology-a-study-of-spiritual-and-literary-achievement-in-the-third-millennium-bc/oclc/322805&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=c.1*#&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: http://www.theoi.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: http://mabinogi.net/translations.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: http://www.ucc.ie/celt/&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/celtic-heritage-ancient-tradition-in-ireland-and-wales/oclc/53330832&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: http://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot-project&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: http://www.amazon.com/Norse-Myths-Pantheon-Folklore-Library/dp/0394748468/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1448344900&amp;sr=8-1&amp;keywords=Norse%20Kevin%20Crossley-Holland&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: http://norse-mythology.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/flayed-god-the-mesoamerican-mythological-tradition-sacred-texts-and-images-from-pre-columbian-mexico-and-central-america/oclc/183418728?referer=di&amp;ht=edition&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: http://www.mesoweb.com/publications/Christenson/PV-Literal.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: http://www.mesoweb.com/publications/Christenson/PopolVuh.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [27]: https://mythologymatters.wordpress.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [28]: http://www.nypl.org/weblinks/1279&#xD;&#xA;  [29]: http://biography.jrank.org/pages/224/Bierhorst-John-William-1936.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5323" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1191" RevisionGUID="83305b7e-d162-4dfa-94c9-7bb9262d4ac4" CreationDate="2015-11-26T04:55:49.253" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="|chinese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5324" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1194" RevisionGUID="14b5f647-a41f-4c90-b113-674c86c96ff7" CreationDate="2015-11-26T05:37:15.237" UserId="961" Text="I picked up a copy of the Element Encyclopedia of Vampires for 4 bucks plus shipping for a reference on the book and I think it definitely would be handy if you do decide to go the vampire route in your book. &#xA;&#xA;It's 700 pages and has entries about everything from historical vampire panics to folklore all the way to vampires in tv and movies. Not everything is useful but there's definitely enough to make it worth the low cost and having your own copy means you can notate it. &#xA;&#xA;As far European vampires go, there are a ton of variations in &quot;vampire species&quot; (Upir, Upyr, Upor, Obour, Ubour, Murony, Moroi, Nachzehrer) those are just a few examples. &#xA;&#xA;They vary wildly in abilities, how they feed, what they eat and many have some pretty weird traits. Like having only one nostril. Not sure why but there are several like that. There are also like 20 species that are just just floating heads with their spines dangling.&#xA;&#xA;I'd advise you to get the book. It's an interesting read if nothing else. Personally though I think you need to just commit if you go the vampire route. They're so engrained in our minds that if they act like a vampire that's how the audience is going to think of them no matter what they go by. &#xA;&#xA;If you decide not to do the vampire route the book still has a lot you might be able to use. You could take some of the traits from this and that and make your own creature. &#xA;&#xA;I'll leave the link here. If you think of anything specific you'd like me to look up feel free to ask. Otherwise good luck. &#xA;&#xA;http://www.amazon.com/Element-Encyclopedia-Vampires--z-Undead/dp/1435123409/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1448507773&amp;sr=8-1&amp;keywords=element+encyclopedia+of+vampires" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5325" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1195" RevisionGUID="dd9f2f5e-9616-4bf2-943f-0a661c5124b4" CreationDate="2015-11-26T05:42:01.950" UserId="709" Text="I think it's safe to say that at least the Norns knew the language of the runes from the Völuspá: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;There stands an ash called Yggdrasil,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;A mighty tree showered in white hail.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;From there come the dews that fall in the valleys.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;It stands evergreen above Urd’s Well.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;From there come maidens, very wise,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Three from the lake that stands beneath the pole.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;One is called Urd, another Verdandi,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Skuld the third; they carve into the tree&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The lives and destinies of children&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We can, I think, safely presume that the Norn carved runes into the tree. Considering the power the Runes are supposed to possess, it would make little sense for the Norn to carve in anything else. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a side, it's possible to take the Runic Language of the early middle age Norse and Germanic peoples as *evidence* that Odin taught Midgardians the Runes at some point. Although from my research it would seem that there is a lot of contention around this and around what the Odin Runes actually are/were. &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5326" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1191" RevisionGUID="d5336ab1-b3ce-4d31-b821-84696b405fca" CreationDate="2015-11-26T16:32:49.763" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="grammar" Text="For the purposes of this question, a focus means something needed to cast a spell properly, something that channels magic, or something that allows magic to be cast. (This could include a magically enchanted item)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In most Myths and Legends that I'm aware of, the caster normally uses a wand or a staff to create magic (scepters are also popular). I'm not well versed in Chinese Mythology, and so I am wondering whether there are objects that are used in a similar manner in their Mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**What objects allowed the users to cast/channel/focus magic either from the user or from the object in Chinese Mythology?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*I may even consider a grimoire or tome like object if just for sake of completeness*" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5327" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1195" RevisionGUID="a3ad409c-4509-442f-9f4d-3ff87e170665" CreationDate="2015-11-26T22:45:48.043" UserId="709" Comment="added 145 characters in body" Text="I think it's safe to say that at least the Norns knew the language of the runes from the Völuspá: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;There stands an ash called Yggdrasil,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;A mighty tree showered in white hail.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;From there come the dews that fall in the valleys.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;It stands evergreen above Urd’s Well.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;From there come maidens, very wise,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Three from the lake that stands beneath the pole.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;One is called Urd, another Verdandi,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Skuld the third; they carve into the tree&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The lives and destinies of children &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Translation taken from [Norse Mythology for Smart People][1]*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We can, I think, safely presume that the Norn carved runes into the tree. Considering the power the Runes are supposed to possess, it would make little sense for the Norn to carve in anything else. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a side, it's possible to take the Runic Language of the early middle age Norse and Germanic peoples as *evidence* that Odin taught Midgardians the Runes at some point. Although from my research it would seem that there is a lot of contention around this and around what the Odin Runes actually are/were. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://norse-mythology.org/runes/the-origins-of-the-runes/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5328" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1196" RevisionGUID="8eda9d15-429a-45ae-986e-29192bb4330f" CreationDate="2015-11-27T09:20:33.240" UserId="965" Text="In Romanian language you will come across the term &quot;moroi&quot; who translates roughly as &quot;dead nightmare&quot;.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Another such term is &quot;Stigroi&quot;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;These term are used by many modern authors who want to present a vampire-like-creature as something: undead, bloodthirsty, evil (so no Twillight for you).&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Example of these books are:&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - Bloodlines, by Richelle Mead&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - The Strain, by  Guillermo del Toro and Chuck Hogan&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In all of these books, &quot;Moroi&quot; term is used to describe what the reader perceives as &quot;vampire&quot; creaure" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5329" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1133" RevisionGUID="8d9675d0-90a0-414f-9d12-e18951fef759" CreationDate="2015-11-27T18:12:20.107" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="deleted 79 characters in body" Text="Welcome to the site, and welcome to the interesting world of mythology! Here are some resources for you to get started with.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By far the easiest way to learn more about mythology is to go to [your local library][1] and borrow one of their books about mythology. Don't worry about selecting the &quot;right&quot; source; just select a book that looks interesting to you. Remember, you are a beginner, therefore you don't know anything about mythology, and therefore *any* book will teach you something new.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, we recognize that not everyone can or would like to browse a library, and therefore have created a list of both online and offline resources. This list is by no means exhaustive: its purpose is merely to introduce the reader to a variety of sources about mythology. *Please do not be frightened by the amount of sources listed below: just choose a book or website that looks interesting and read it.* These books and websites are all interesting, so don't worry about choosing the &quot;wrong&quot; one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note to the reader: online sources have an *online* marker next to them. Offline sources link to the corresponding page on [worldcat.org][2], which will tell you whether the book is located in a library near you.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# General Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Collections of myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Creation Stories from around the World][3] -- *online* collection of creation myths from various cultures.&#xD;&#xA;2. [Sacred-Texts.com][4] -- an *online* database of translated myths and other sacred texts.&#xD;&#xA;3. [World Mythology][5]&#xD;&#xA;4. [Oxford Companion to World Mythology][6]&#xD;&#xA;5. [Handbook of World Mythology][7] &#xD;&#xA;6. [Gods, Heroes, and Monsters: A Sourcebook of Greek, Roman, and Near Eastern Myths in Translation][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Mythical Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Encyclopedia Mythica][9] -- an *online* encyclopedia about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Easier Texts&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For younger readers and those who’d like a more lively presentation before tackling the originals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [D’Aulaires’ Book of Greek Myths][10]: illustrated, readable, and blunt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. [D’Aulaires’ Book of Norse Myths][11]: illustrated, readable, and blunt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. [The Greek Gods][12], by Evslin, Evslin, and Hoopes. Not a long book but easy to read, and the one which got me hooked on mythology in elementary school.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. [The Adventures of Ulysses][13], Bernard Evslin: a highly readable and entertaining version of *The Odyssey.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Norse Myths][14], Kevin Crossley-Holland, a readable and clear collection of some of the more important Norse myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I recommend anything by the D’Aulaires and the Evslins in general.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Mesopotamian Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Sumerian Mythology: A Study of Spiritual and Literary Achievement in the Third Millennium B.C.][15]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. [The Electronic Corpus of Sumerian Literature: Narrative Works][16]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Greek Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Homer's [Iliad](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Ilhome.htm) and [Odyssey](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Odhome.htm)&#xD;&#xA;2. Hesiod's [Theogony](http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm) -- an *online* translation of the Greek creation myth.&#xD;&#xA;3. [Homeric Hymns](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HomericHymns1.html)&#xD;&#xA;4. Pindar's [Victory Odes](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0162%3Abook%3DO)&#xD;&#xA;5. Apollonius of Rhodes' [Argonautica](http://www.theoi.com/Text/ApolloniusRhodius1.html)&#xD;&#xA;6. Pseudo-Apollodorus' [Bibliotecha](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus1.html)&#xD;&#xA;3. Ovid's &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.worldcat.org/title/metamorphoses-of-ovid/oclc/17197438&quot;&gt;Metamorphoses&lt;/a&gt;, plus a downloadable version &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.poetryintranslation.com/klineasovid.htm&quot;&gt;here.&lt;/a&gt; A loosely-structured &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphoses&quot;&gt;narrative poem&lt;/a&gt; covering many of the classic Greek myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias and Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Timothy Gantz, *Early Greek Myth*&#xD;&#xA;1. [Theoi][17] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Greek gods, creatures, and myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Celtic Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Four Branches of the Mabinogi][18]: an *online* translation of a classic collection of [tag:welsh] myths.&#xD;&#xA;2. [CELT][19]-- a fantastic *online* database of [tag:irish] literature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Celtic Heritage][20]&#xD;&#xA;2. [The Camelot Project][21] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Arthurian myth and legend.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Norse Mythology &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Norse Mythology for Smart People][23] -- an *online* encyclopedia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Mesoamerican / Central American&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Flayed God][24]&#xD;&#xA;2. The Popol Vuh: translations exist online: you can choose between a [literal translation][25] and a [less literal translation][26].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Miscellaneous Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Blogs about Mythology***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Mythology Matters][27] -- an *online* blog about mythology written by one of our own contributors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The New York Public Library's Recommended Mythology Links][28] -- an *online* collection of high-quality websites about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Interesting Articles***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The autobiography of John (William) Bierhorst][29] -- a short *online* autobiography of a man who translates native american myths for a living. It's a shortish and easy read.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.worldcat.org/libraries&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.worldcat.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/CS/CSIndex.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/world-mythology/oclc/27678612&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/oxford-companion-to-world-mythology/oclc/60492027&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/handbook-of-world-mythology/oclc/61151643&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/gods-heroes-and-monsters-a-sourcebook-of-greek-roman-and-near-eastern-myths-in-translation/oclc/842323102&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.pantheon.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/daulaires-book-of-greek-myths/oclc/779214769&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/daulaires-book-of-norse-myths/oclc/57311921&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/greek-gods/oclc/23595215&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/adventures-of-ulysses/oclc/22418476&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/norse-myths/oclc/6223744&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/sumerian-mythology-a-study-of-spiritual-and-literary-achievement-in-the-third-millennium-bc/oclc/322805&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=c.1*#&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: http://www.theoi.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: http://mabinogi.net/translations.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: http://www.ucc.ie/celt/&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/celtic-heritage-ancient-tradition-in-ireland-and-wales/oclc/53330832&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: http://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot-project&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: http://www.amazon.com/Norse-Myths-Pantheon-Folklore-Library/dp/0394748468/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1448344900&amp;sr=8-1&amp;keywords=Norse%20Kevin%20Crossley-Holland&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: http://norse-mythology.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/flayed-god-the-mesoamerican-mythological-tradition-sacred-texts-and-images-from-pre-columbian-mexico-and-central-america/oclc/183418728?referer=di&amp;ht=edition&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: http://www.mesoweb.com/publications/Christenson/PV-Literal.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: http://www.mesoweb.com/publications/Christenson/PopolVuh.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [27]: https://mythologymatters.wordpress.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [28]: http://www.nypl.org/weblinks/1279&#xD;&#xA;  [29]: http://biography.jrank.org/pages/224/Bierhorst-John-William-1936.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5331" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1197" RevisionGUID="7afa6128-daf9-489f-961e-ad3f3284a591" CreationDate="2015-11-28T20:22:26.843" UserId="967" Text="Sisyphus' punishment was to roll a rock up a hill forever, but then why couldn't he just drop it? Why couldn't he get it to the top?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5332" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1197" RevisionGUID="7afa6128-daf9-489f-961e-ad3f3284a591" CreationDate="2015-11-28T20:22:26.843" UserId="967" Text="What exactly was Sisyphus' punishment?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5333" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1197" RevisionGUID="7afa6128-daf9-489f-961e-ad3f3284a591" CreationDate="2015-11-28T20:22:26.843" UserId="967" Text="|greek|underworld|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5334" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1198" RevisionGUID="41571f6a-9170-4dc7-9e7a-afa5d9b8e4f8" CreationDate="2015-11-28T23:53:02.520" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="[Homer][1] describes the stone as being so heavy that, while Sisyphus could carry the stone part of the way up the hill, he would get so tired doing so that he would then drop the stone before he got to the top.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aye, and I saw Sisyphus in violent torment, seeking to raise a monstrous stone with both his hands. [595] Verily he would brace himself with hands and feet, and thrust the stone toward the crest of a hill, but as often as he was about to heave it over the top, the weight would turn it back, and then down again to the plain would come rolling the ruthless stone. But he would strain again and thrust it back, and the sweat [600] flowed down from his limbs, and dust rose up from his head.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't have a definitive answer to your first question as of right now.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0136:book=11:card=567&amp;highlight=sisyphus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5335" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1199" RevisionGUID="5ab6057d-86de-4e61-9700-f1ec1af89d86" CreationDate="2015-11-29T00:17:09.260" UserId="183" Text="The [Epic Cycle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_Cycle), a group of eight Greek epics, collectively tell the story of the Trojan War, as well as related events. It is an ongoing matter of debate as to when the epics were first complied into a &quot;cycle&quot;, and as it doesn't seem as if that issue will be settled soon, I have a related question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Given that at least six authors appear to have contributed to the cycle, at first it seems as if the epics were written separately. However, if, for example, we look at Homer's contributions, we see that they do not appear to be combinable - that is, taking his two volumes and putting them together would not make a complete story. This makes it seem possible that Homer was aware of other works that would complete the Cycle, or vice versa.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Were the authors of each of the six pieces of the Cycle aware of any other works at the time of their writing, and were they thus influenced by the existence of said works?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5336" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1199" RevisionGUID="5ab6057d-86de-4e61-9700-f1ec1af89d86" CreationDate="2015-11-29T00:17:09.260" UserId="183" Text="Were each of the myths in the Epic Cycle of Greek mythology intended to be related to one another?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5337" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1199" RevisionGUID="5ab6057d-86de-4e61-9700-f1ec1af89d86" CreationDate="2015-11-29T00:17:09.260" UserId="183" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5338" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1198" RevisionGUID="83bb5a0a-aa4e-42cb-962d-c6da0ed16818" CreationDate="2015-11-29T00:46:27.607" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 786 characters in body" Text="[Homer][1] describes the stone as being so heavy that, while Sisyphus could carry the stone part of the way up the hill, he would get so tired doing so that he would then drop the stone before he got to the top.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aye, and I saw Sisyphus in violent torment, seeking to raise a monstrous stone with both his hands. [595] Verily he would brace himself with hands and feet, and thrust the stone toward the crest of a hill, but as often as he was about to heave it over the top, the weight would turn it back, and then down again to the plain would come rolling the ruthless stone. But he would strain again and thrust it back, and the sweat [600] flowed down from his limbs, and dust rose up from his head.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've seen a variety of explanations as to &quot;why couldn't he just drop it,&quot; but I don't have a reputable source for these explanations as of right now (presumably because these explanations may not be supported by primary sources). One popular claim is that Sisyphus was promised immortality if he rolled the boulder to the top of the hill. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the simplest explanation (and the one best supported by the primary sources) is that Sisyphus had to push the boulder up the hill because *that was his punishment*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But Sisyphus is **punished** in Hades by rolling a stone with his hands and head in the effort to heave it over the top; but push it as he will, it rebounds backward.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Apollodorus, Library][2])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0136:book=11:card=567&amp;highlight=sisyphus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0022:text=Library:book=1:chapter=9&amp;highlight=punish%2Csisyphus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5340" PostHistoryTypeId="12" PostId="1169" RevisionGUID="33359072-028e-4193-b5e5-91386bb8d9f3" CreationDate="2015-11-29T12:07:46.570" UserId="864" Comment="via Vote" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:864,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;xxx&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="5342" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1201" RevisionGUID="9af8b073-c9bb-4b28-89bc-faf01471476a" CreationDate="2015-11-29T17:14:32.770" UserId="292" Text="Here are some other sources for Greek and Egyptian myths:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[THEOI.com][1] for Greek mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ancient Egypt Online][2] for the Gods and Goddesses  &#xD;&#xA;[Egyptian Gods and Goddesses][3]  &#xD;&#xA;Ancient Egypt, the section on [Pharaonic Religion][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://egyptian-gods.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/index.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5343" PostHistoryTypeId="16" PostId="1201" RevisionGUID="47434488-2e4e-40e4-922c-7d6724a944dd" CreationDate="2015-11-29T17:14:32.770" UserId="292" />
  <row Id="5344" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1202" RevisionGUID="cb3df7d6-16bc-4ac2-8259-9377b3f10397" CreationDate="2015-11-29T17:19:05.833" UserId="292" Text="There's also an interesting Eddic poem called [Sigrdrífumál][1] in which the valkyrie Sigrdrifa instructs the hero Sigurd in runic magic. (Sigrdrifa, Victory-Bringer, is often [identified with][2] Brynhild, so it is possible she learned the runes from Odin, her former patron. The poem does not mention this, however.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe25.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigrdr%C3%ADfum%C3%A1l" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5346" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="517" RevisionGUID="d4ec38b9-972f-48fe-b132-7120190fb3a8" CreationDate="2015-11-30T01:18:11.540" UserId="967" Comment="Fixed some redundant stuff" Text="In order to learn the secrets of the runes (symbols of some of the most powerful forces in the cosmos) Odin hangs himself from Yggdrasil, pierces himself with his own spear, and peers downward to the Well of Urn for nine days. He fasts during this time and instructs the other gods not to assist him in any way.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the end of the ninth night he perceives some shapes on the depth of the Well. The runes have accepted his sacrifice (Odin is sacrificing himself to himself) and show themselves to him, and thus Odin is able to learn their secrets. &lt;sup&gt;[1]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not that this is not a great feat, but if the process might consist in going through an ordeal were a being &quot;offers himself or herself&quot; to the runes, overcomes or withstands the ordeal and the runes accept this sacrifice, it could look like something that others might be tempted to try.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Has any other god or entity in the Norse mythology, successfully or unsuccessfully, attempted to gain knowledge of the runes like Odin did?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;[1]: [One reference][1] to this process.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]: http://norse-mythology.org/tales/odins-discovery-of-the-runes/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5347" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="517" RevisionGUID="d4ec38b9-972f-48fe-b132-7120190fb3a8" CreationDate="2015-11-30T01:18:11.540" Comment="Proposed by 967 approved by -1 edit id of 245" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5348" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="517" RevisionGUID="751b5bac-1adf-48bc-ad24-3206d2cbc579" CreationDate="2015-11-30T01:18:11.540" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="Fixed some redundant stuff" Text="In order to learn the secrets of the runes (symbols of some of the most powerful forces in the cosmos), Odin hangs himself from Yggdrasil, pierces himself with his own spear, and peers downward to the Well of Urn for nine days. He fasts during this time and instructs the other gods not to assist him in any way.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the end of the ninth night he perceives some shapes on the depth of the Well. The runes have accepted his sacrifice (Odin is sacrificing himself to himself) and show themselves to him, and thus Odin is able to learn their secrets. &lt;sup&gt;[1]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not that this is not a great feat, but if the process might consist in going through an ordeal were a being &quot;offers himself or herself&quot; to the runes, overcomes or withstands the ordeal and the runes accept this sacrifice, it could look like something that others might be tempted to try.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Has any other god or entity in the Norse mythology, successfully or unsuccessfully, attempted to gain knowledge of the runes like Odin did?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;[1]: [One reference][1] to this process.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]: http://norse-mythology.org/tales/odins-discovery-of-the-runes/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5349" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1204" RevisionGUID="fb807434-0be8-4705-9e85-75e55cb95069" CreationDate="2015-11-30T01:44:06.090" UserId="967" Text="How were the Erinyes born? They seem like mystical creatures that are there to do Hades' bidding, but how were they actually born? Are they just other monsters magically born?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5350" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1204" RevisionGUID="fb807434-0be8-4705-9e85-75e55cb95069" CreationDate="2015-11-30T01:44:06.090" UserId="967" Text="How were the Furies (Erinyies) born?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5351" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1204" RevisionGUID="fb807434-0be8-4705-9e85-75e55cb95069" CreationDate="2015-11-30T01:44:06.090" UserId="967" Text="|greek|erinyes|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5354" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1205" RevisionGUID="51838562-90bf-4396-9449-582ab43348cf" CreationDate="2015-11-30T07:51:27.570" UserId="57" Text="According to Hesiod, the Erinyes were born of Gaia (Earth) when she received the blood of Ouranos (Sky): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Heaven came, bringing on night and longing for love, and he lay about Earth spreading himself full upon her. Then the son from his ambush stretched forth his left hand and in his right took the great long sickle with jagged teeth, and swiftly lopped off his own father's members and cast them away to fall behind him. And not vainly did they fall from his hand; for all the bloody drops that gushed forth Earth received, and as the seasons moved round she bore the strong Erinyes and the great Giants with gleaming armour, holding long spears in their hands and the Nymphs whom they call Meliae all over the boundless earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hesiod, Theogony](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D173)&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5355" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1177" RevisionGUID="0d8b5d78-5184-4bb6-bfb4-96bc44c00c70" CreationDate="2015-11-30T10:02:54.740" UserId="110" Comment="added 880 characters in body" Text="According to mythology and history Diomedes Married many times. Although we have no record of him divorcing or widowing and given that at the time polygamy wasn't officially allowed (one wife, many mistresses only) we can only assume that from between one marriage and the next there was some sort of divorce or death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Quotes from Wikipedia on Diomedes' marriages&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Diomedes, in turn, married Aegialeus's daughter Aegialia when he returned from battle&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;br/&gt;....&lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;He married King Adrastus's daughter Deipyle.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;br/&gt;....&lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA; &gt; Diomedes then migrated to Aetolia, and thence to Daunia (Apulia) in Italy. He went to the court of King Daunus, King of the DauniansThe king was honored to accept the great warrior. He begged Diomedes&#xD;&#xA; &gt; for help in warring against the Messapians, for a share of the land&#xD;&#xA; &gt; and marriage to his daughter. Diomedes agreed the proposal, drew up&#xD;&#xA; &gt; his men and routed the Messapians. He took his land which he assigned&#xD;&#xA; &gt; to the Dorians, his followers. The two nations 'Monadi' and the&#xD;&#xA; &gt; 'Dardi' were vanquished by Diomedes along with the two cities of&#xD;&#xA; &gt; 'Apina' and 'Trica' &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;br/&gt;....&lt;br/&gt; Diomedes later married Daunus's daughter Euippe&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;br/&gt;....&lt;br/&gt;a scholiast for Nemean X says Diomedes married Hermione, the only daughter of Menelaus and Helen&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So yeah he married many times" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5356" PostHistoryTypeId="11" PostId="239" RevisionGUID="e82722b6-4e18-4f02-b437-49fbe37a545c" CreationDate="2015-11-30T10:56:30.870" UserId="57" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Yannis&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="5357" PostHistoryTypeId="11" PostId="898" RevisionGUID="6af685ce-d2ac-425d-82c3-cecb399f3752" CreationDate="2015-11-30T10:56:38.990" UserId="57" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Yannis&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="5358" PostHistoryTypeId="11" PostId="197" RevisionGUID="1e4f70ba-d2cc-4b2f-955f-426ff074f43e" CreationDate="2015-11-30T10:56:51.543" UserId="57" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Yannis&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="5359" PostHistoryTypeId="13" PostId="203" RevisionGUID="22105d1a-e38d-493a-b4d5-a3d9890d5544" CreationDate="2015-11-30T11:11:32.953" UserId="79" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:79,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ero Sɘnnin&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="5360" PostHistoryTypeId="11" PostId="724" RevisionGUID="5004224b-a2e9-4eec-a052-ca727cb6e5e1" CreationDate="2015-11-30T11:15:42.810" UserId="108" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:108,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Semaphore&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="5361" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1206" RevisionGUID="56704331-b4f9-4289-98a8-5e65e5566cf7" CreationDate="2015-11-30T23:42:15.160" UserId="709" Text="Dain and his brother Nabbi, created the magical boar named **Hildisvini** Freyja rides this boar. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Alfrigg and Berling and Dvalin and Grerr created the **Brisingamen** (A Golden Necklace) for the goddess Freyja. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Andvare created the cursed ring, **Andvarenaut**, he was robbed by Loki. The cursed ring had the same abilities as **Draupnir** however, the ring was cursed and &#xD;&#xA;would always cast a great curse on the owner, and bring misery, bad luck, and make the owner unhappy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eitri and Brokkr as well as creating **Draupnir** and **Mjolnir** also created **Gullinbursti** which was a boar with golden bristles that glowed in the dark. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Fjalar and Dalar killed Kvasir to gain his wisdom turning his blood into the **mead of poetry**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sons of Ivaldi created **Skidbladnir** for Freyr.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. [Timeless Myths][1]&#xD;&#xA; 2. [Viking Mythology][2]&#xD;&#xA; 3. [Historum][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.timelessmyths.com/norse/objects.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.viking-mythology.com/dwarfs.php&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://historum.com/art-cultural-history/49819-norse-mythology-dwarf-dwarf-legends-how-they-mixed-norse-gods.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5362" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="203" RevisionGUID="03675631-cefc-4512-a841-960e21be1a25" CreationDate="2015-12-01T00:05:38.813" UserId="709" Comment="did words, grammar and things" Text="The objects mentioned in your question were created by Eitri and Brokkr, and the Sons of Ivaldi. However, there are more objects that exist which were crafted by the dwarves. You can find a list of objects belonging to Norse deities here:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Viking Mythology**](http://www.viking-mythology.com/items.php)&#xD;&#xA;--&#xD;&#xA;[**Timeless Myth**](http://www.timelessmyths.com/norse/objects.html)&#xD;&#xA;--&#xD;&#xA;Most of the objects mentioned in the list were created by the Dwarf craftsmen. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5363" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="203" RevisionGUID="03675631-cefc-4512-a841-960e21be1a25" CreationDate="2015-12-01T00:05:38.813" Comment="Proposed by 709 approved by 183 edit id of 247" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5365" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1207" RevisionGUID="7c4310fa-f132-4a44-956c-d7d8f7d4bfd6" CreationDate="2015-12-01T15:30:49.853" UserId="57" Text="Hugh G. Evelyn-White's hypothesis is that the authors of the non Homeric poems were reasonably aware of Homer's works. This is summarized in the introduction of *Hesiod, The Homeric Hymns, and Homerica*: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **The Trojan Cycle**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Six epics with the &quot;Iliad&quot; and the &quot;Odyssey&quot; made up the Trojan Cycle—The &quot;Cyprian Lays&quot;, the &quot;Iliad&quot;, the &quot;Aethiopis&quot;, the &quot;Little Iliad&quot;, the &quot;Sack of Troy&quot;, the &quot;Returns&quot;, the &quot;Odyssey&quot;, and the &quot;Telegony&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It has been assumed in the foregoing pages that the poems of the Trojan Cycle are later than the Homeric poems; but, as the opposite view has been held, the reasons for this assumption must now be given. 1) Tradition puts Homer and the Homeric poems proper back in the ages before chronological history began, and at the same time assigns the purely Cyclic poems to definite authors who are dated from the first Olympiad (776 B.C.) downwards. This tradition cannot be purely arbitrary. 2) The Cyclic poets (as we can see from the abstract of Proclus) were careful not to trespass upon ground already occupied by Homer. Thus, when we find that in the &quot;Returns&quot; all the prominent Greek heroes except Odysseus are accounted for, we are forced to believe that the author of this poem knew the &quot;Odyssey&quot; and judged it unnecessary to deal in full with that hero's adventures. In a word, the Cyclic poems are 'written round' the &quot;Iliad&quot; and the &quot;Odyssey&quot;. 3) The general structure of these epics is clearly imitative. As M.M. Croiset remark, the abusive Thersites in the &quot;Aethiopis&quot; is clearly copied from the Thersites of the &quot;Iliad&quot;; in the same poem Antilochus, slain by Memnon and avenged by Achilles, is obviously modelled on Patroclus. 4) The geographical knowledge of a poem like the &quot;Returns&quot; is far wider and more precise than that of the &quot;Odyssey&quot;. 5) Moreover, in the Cyclic poems epic is clearly degenerating morally—if the expression may be used. The chief greatness of the &quot;Iliad&quot; is in the character of the heroes Achilles and Hector rather than in the actual events which take place: in the Cyclic writers facts rather than character are the objects of interest, and events are so packed together as to leave no space for any exhibition of the play of moral forces. All these reasons justify the view that the poems with which we now have to deal were later than the &quot;Iliad&quot; and &quot;Odyssey&quot;, and if we must recognize the possibility of some conventionality in the received dating, we may feel confident that it is at least approximately just.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Project Gutenberg EBook of Hesiod, The Homeric Hymns, and Homerica, by Homer and Hesiod](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/348/348-h/348-h.htm#link2H_4_0012)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I believe this remains the prevalent theory, although the matter is far from settled. And with the evidence as lacking and fragmented as they are, I'm afraid it won't be settled any time soon.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5367" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="858" RevisionGUID="891ca18c-2235-4d77-b38d-b83981fe3bfb" CreationDate="2015-12-01T17:00:22.100" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|islam|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5368" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1167" RevisionGUID="48bcbf4d-35f3-4962-998d-d7b3e1e2a875" CreationDate="2015-12-01T19:48:46.593" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 173 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="I'm looking for other &quot;Mother of Monsters&quot; examples to supplement a post I wrote involving [Lilith and Angrboda and their status as &quot;Mother of Monsters][1].&quot; Over time, I'd like to add more examples to the post, do more analysis, and rework it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any help is much appreciated! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://stevenmlong.com/mother-of-monsters-sisterhood-angrboda-lilith/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5369" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1167" RevisionGUID="48bcbf4d-35f3-4962-998d-d7b3e1e2a875" CreationDate="2015-12-01T19:48:46.593" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 173 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="What are some examples of &quot;Mothers of Monsters&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5370" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1167" RevisionGUID="48bcbf4d-35f3-4962-998d-d7b3e1e2a875" CreationDate="2015-12-01T19:48:46.593" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 173 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|comparative|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5371" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1208" RevisionGUID="a66648a8-faae-42de-b540-17c284d45e02" CreationDate="2015-12-01T19:56:28.570" UserId="57" Text="A prime example of a mother of monsters from Greek mythology is Echidna: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Men say that Typhaon the terrible, outrageous and lawless, was joined in love to her, the maid with glancing eyes. So she conceived and brought forth fierce offspring; first she bare Orthus the hound of Geryones, and then again she bare a second, a monster not to be overcome and that may not be described, Cerberus who eats raw flesh, the brazen-voiced hound of Hades, fifty-headed, relentless and strong. And again she bore a third, the evil-minded Hydra of Lerna, whom the goddess, white-armed Hera nourished, being angry beyond measure with the mighty Heracles. And her Heracles, the son of Zeus, of the house of Amphitryon, together with warlike Iolaus, destroyed with the unpitying sword through the plans of Athene the spoil-driver. She was the mother of Chimaera who breathed raging fire, a creature fearful, great, swift-footed and strong, who had three heads, one of a grim-eyed lion; in her hinderpart, a dragon; and in her middle, a goat, breathing forth a fearful blast of blazing fire. Her did Pegasus and noble Bellerophon slay; but Echidna was subject in love to Orthus and brought forth the deadly Sphinx which destroyed the Cadmeans, and the Nemean lion, which Hera, the good wife of Zeus, brought up and made to haunt the hills of Nemea, a plague to men. There he preyed upon the tribes of her own people and had power over Tretus of Nemea and Apesas: yet the strength of stout Heracles overcame him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Theogony of Hesiod, translated by Hugh G. Evelyn-White][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You may find [a list of her offspring][2] on Wikipedia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echidna_(mythology)#List_of_principle_offspring" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5372" PostHistoryTypeId="20" PostId="943" RevisionGUID="991e3f19-a00e-433d-866e-036c23f0e728" CreationDate="2015-12-02T12:44:49.500" UserId="57" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Yannis&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="5373" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1209" RevisionGUID="e1ff5d96-650a-4cf1-80ed-4f0b99b29140" CreationDate="2015-12-04T01:40:50.810" UserId="565" Text="This is an excellent (and difficult) question.  The first thing that we must remember is that most or all the material which makes up the so-called 'Epic Cycle' existed earlier in oral form.  That is, before the Greeks were literate and the epics were written down, they existed in more fluid oral versions. Proficient rhapsodes knew and could manipulate the oral traditions.  By that I mean that they could 'stitch together' various components of the epic cycle as they or their audience wanted. Homer was aware of the pre-existing oral traditions;  the *Iliad* itself was an oral composition. The later authors knew the traditions, as well, since some orality survived to Plato's time at least. (The transition from orality to literacy, called proto-literacy, involves both systems of transmission coexisting side by side -- a period that lasted about 400 years for the Greeks.) Just as the rhapsodes enjoyed latitude in the oral performance of lays from the epic cycle, so too the first writers of the epics admitted many influences and innovations.  That is, tradition was never a dead hand forcing certain authorial decisions:  poets have always practiced great compositional freedom. Thanks be to Apollo!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5374" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1066" RevisionGUID="1f491937-8f54-4b41-b279-ea38be50a1cb" CreationDate="2015-12-04T12:32:31.750" UserId="188" Comment="Altering to ask for reasons why" Text="Is there a preponderance of seductive water nymphs in mythology? That is, among the more sexually inclined maidens in mythology, are they more likely to embody or be connected to water than other elements?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, there's the Russian Russalka, the German Rhine Maidens, the Lady of the Lake in tales that don't involve Excalibur, the Greek Naiads and Sirens, Scottish, Irish, and Faroese Selkies, and so on and so on; even the American First Nations have their water maidens that tempted young warriors to a soggy grave.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If there is a preponderance of seductive water nymphs in mythology, then why is that so?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5375" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1066" RevisionGUID="1f491937-8f54-4b41-b279-ea38be50a1cb" CreationDate="2015-12-04T12:32:31.750" UserId="188" Comment="Altering to ask for reasons why" Text="If there is a preponderance of seductive water nymphs in mythology, then why is that so?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5376" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1210" RevisionGUID="e49b1f75-ac8f-41e0-a031-53b38c9c7556" CreationDate="2015-12-04T12:35:14.283" UserId="982" Text="After Zeus defeat Kronos, all titans on the losing side were punished. Atlas in particular was tasked in holding the celestial sphere for all eternity. When Herakles later meets him, it's strongly implied that while Atlas isn't chained or anything, he can't leave his post otherwise the skies would come falling. But then who held the skies before Atlas?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5377" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1210" RevisionGUID="e49b1f75-ac8f-41e0-a031-53b38c9c7556" CreationDate="2015-12-04T12:35:14.283" UserId="982" Text="Who held the celestial sphere before Atlas?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5378" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1210" RevisionGUID="e49b1f75-ac8f-41e0-a031-53b38c9c7556" CreationDate="2015-12-04T12:35:14.283" UserId="982" Text="|greek|titans|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5379" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1211" RevisionGUID="1d8e7e86-299a-46ac-80cf-01c907e67667" CreationDate="2015-12-04T15:45:14.493" UserId="799" Text=" The Hippogriff is said to be the symbol of the Greek god Apollo.  A Hipppogriff is a  mixture of a horse and an eagle. There are some practices that consider the Hippogriff a symbol of love. This is because the parents of a Hippogriff, (Griffin and the Mare) are natural enemies. When was the Hippogriff  introduced as part of mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5380" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1211" RevisionGUID="1d8e7e86-299a-46ac-80cf-01c907e67667" CreationDate="2015-12-04T15:45:14.493" UserId="799" Text="Origin of the Hippogriff" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5381" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1211" RevisionGUID="1d8e7e86-299a-46ac-80cf-01c907e67667" CreationDate="2015-12-04T15:45:14.493" UserId="799" Text="|mythical-creatures|etymology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5382" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1211" RevisionGUID="9b626ea6-37fd-48e6-bf79-19cfe72bb638" CreationDate="2015-12-04T15:51:18.107" UserId="799" Comment="added 8 characters in body" Text=" The Hippogriff is said to be the symbol of the Greek god Apollo.  A Hipppogriff is a  mixture of a horse and an eagle/griffin. There are some practices that consider the Hippogriff a symbol of love. This is because the parents of a Hippogriff, (Griffin and the Mare) are natural enemies. When was the Hippogriff  introduced as part of mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5384" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1210" RevisionGUID="29ec583a-8958-4a96-b81c-c47c7d561089" CreationDate="2015-12-04T16:12:44.723" UserId="57" Comment="added 9 characters in body" Text="After Zeus defeated Kronos, all Titans on the losing side were punished. Atlas in particular was tasked with holding the celestial sphere for all eternity. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Herakles later meets him, it's strongly implied that while Atlas isn't chained or anything, he can't leave his post otherwise the skies would come falling. But then, who held the skies before Atlas?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5385" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1211" RevisionGUID="8c9fb1f9-1427-4e71-9b3e-639ad155d0b5" CreationDate="2015-12-04T16:16:51.897" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 1 character in body; edited title" Text=" The Hippogriff is said to be the symbol of the Greek god Apollo.  A Hippogriff is a  mixture of a horse and an eagle/griffin. There are some practices that consider the Hippogriff a symbol of love. This is because the parents of a Hippogriff, (Griffin and the Mare) are natural enemies. When was the Hippogriff  introduced as part of mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5386" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1211" RevisionGUID="8c9fb1f9-1427-4e71-9b3e-639ad155d0b5" CreationDate="2015-12-04T16:16:51.897" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 1 character in body; edited title" Text="What is the origin of the Hippogriff?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5393" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1213" RevisionGUID="11963682-4779-4801-9d79-ee2be0b042bf" CreationDate="2015-12-05T01:32:17.143" UserId="987" Text="It is said in Greek Mythology that a swear over the river Styx cannot be broken. So what would happen, theoretically of course, if two swears from the same person contradicted one another?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, suppose I said:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;I swear by the river Styx that I will murder my father.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and then I said &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;I swear by the river Styx that I will prevent the death of my father at all costs.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What would happen?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5394" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1213" RevisionGUID="11963682-4779-4801-9d79-ee2be0b042bf" CreationDate="2015-12-05T01:32:17.143" UserId="987" Text="Contradictory Swears on the River Styx" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5395" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1213" RevisionGUID="11963682-4779-4801-9d79-ee2be0b042bf" CreationDate="2015-12-05T01:32:17.143" UserId="987" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5397" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1213" RevisionGUID="3964641d-099e-4fa1-a3e7-98c8b80478d7" CreationDate="2015-12-05T08:51:55.333" UserId="108" Comment="edited title" Text="What happens if you made contradictory vows on the River Styx?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5399" PostHistoryTypeId="13" PostId="1169" RevisionGUID="41f1f2ae-5bce-4f06-9989-292e1c84acd0" CreationDate="2015-12-05T09:14:46.973" UserId="108" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:108,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Semaphore&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="5403" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1215" RevisionGUID="38a8b048-1a1c-41e5-8b7e-6b7d1137e8e8" CreationDate="2015-12-05T19:17:56.647" UserId="991" Text="Norse mythology often alludes to nine worlds. Eight of these are known with relative certainty:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Asgard, realm of the Aesir&#xD;&#xA; - Vanaheim, realm of the Vanir&#xD;&#xA; - Alfheim, realm of the (light) elves&#xD;&#xA; - Midgard, realm of men&#xD;&#xA; - Jotunheim, realm of the Jotun (giants)&#xD;&#xA; - Muspell, realm of fire&#xD;&#xA; - Niflheim, realm of ice&#xD;&#xA; - Hel, real of the dishonorable dead&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The missing ninth world depends on the source. The two most frequently cited are Svartalfheim, realm of the dark elves, and Nidavellir, realm of the dwarves. As there are supposed to be exactly nine worlds, not ten, the logical conclusion is that Svartalfheim and Nidavellir are the same. Thus dark elves and dwarves refer to the same creature." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5404" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1216" RevisionGUID="2a6dc4d6-b919-4534-97e7-173bd3e6bab2" CreationDate="2015-12-05T23:14:57.730" UserId="992" Text="Skadi seems to marry Njord after Freyja and Freyr are born. The only other figure I can find is Nerthus, though information on her seems scarce. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5405" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1216" RevisionGUID="2a6dc4d6-b919-4534-97e7-173bd3e6bab2" CreationDate="2015-12-05T23:14:57.730" UserId="992" Text="Who is the mother of Freyr and Freyja?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5406" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1216" RevisionGUID="2a6dc4d6-b919-4534-97e7-173bd3e6bab2" CreationDate="2015-12-05T23:14:57.730" UserId="992" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5407" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1217" RevisionGUID="d6f8bec4-e1ba-4386-ad6c-cc0b6a458da5" CreationDate="2015-12-05T23:41:15.110" UserId="183" Text="Different sources imply different things. In some, the mother seems to be [the unnamed sister of Njörðr](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sister-wife_of_Nj%C3%B6r%C3%B0r). In [the Ynglinga Saga](http://omacl.org/Heimskringla/ynglinga.html), Snorri Strurluson writes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While Njord was with the Vanaland people he had taken his own sister in marriage, for that was allowed by their law; and their children were Frey and Freya. But among the Asaland people it was forbidden to intermarry with such near relations.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The same thing is implied in the [Lokasenna](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe10.htm), when Loki claims&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Give heed now, Njorth, | nor boast too high,  &#xD;&#xA; No longer I hold it hid;  &#xD;&#xA; With thy sister hadst thou | so fair a son,  &#xD;&#xA; Thus hadst thou no worse a hope.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the [Gylfaginnig](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre04.htm) implies that the mother was indeed Skadi:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Njördr has to wife the woman called Skadi, daughter of Thjazi the giant. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; . . .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Njördr in Nóatún begot afterward two children: the son was called Freyr, and the daughter Freyja; they were fair of face and mighty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The claim that the mother is [Nerthus](http://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/the-vanir-gods-and-goddesses/nerthus/) seems to be mainly based on etymology, and not on any specific writings." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5408" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1217" RevisionGUID="a51b0635-cf7f-456d-b3b4-8f022e14d1a8" CreationDate="2015-12-06T14:33:03.720" UserId="183" Comment="Fixed typo." Text="Different sources imply different things. In some, the mother seems to be [the unnamed sister of Njörðr](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sister-wife_of_Nj%C3%B6r%C3%B0r). In [the Ynglinga Saga](http://omacl.org/Heimskringla/ynglinga.html), Snorri Strurluson writes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While Njord was with the Vanaland people he had taken his own sister in marriage, for that was allowed by their law; and their children were Frey and Freya. But among the Asaland people it was forbidden to intermarry with such near relations.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The same thing is implied in the [Lokasenna](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe10.htm), when Loki claims&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Give heed now, Njorth, | nor boast too high,  &#xD;&#xA; No longer I hold it hid;  &#xD;&#xA; With thy sister hadst thou | so fair a son,  &#xD;&#xA; Thus hadst thou no worse a hope.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the [Gylfaginning](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre04.htm) implies that the mother was indeed Skadi:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Njördr has to wife the woman called Skadi, daughter of Thjazi the giant. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; . . .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Njördr in Nóatún begot afterward two children: the son was called Freyr, and the daughter Freyja; they were fair of face and mighty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The claim that the mother is [Nerthus](http://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/the-vanir-gods-and-goddesses/nerthus/) seems to be mainly based on etymology, and not on any specific writings." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5413" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1219" RevisionGUID="10762767-714f-420d-8fa0-ccbef6de6c43" CreationDate="2015-12-06T18:44:49.890" UserId="188" Text="**Are there any other mythological beings that got a replacement metal arm, other than Nuada, Lugh Llaw Ereint, and Sigurd?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found these three from the Mythology section [here.](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArtificialLimbs)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - The Battle of Magh Tuireadh relates how Nuada, king of the Tuatha Dé Danann, lost an arm in combat and received a functional replacement crafted of silver.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - The same tale is ascribed to Lugh Llaw Ereint in the Welsh mythological cycle Y Mabinogion and may spring from the same Ur-Root. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - There is a variation of a Norse myth involving Sigurd and his battle with the dragon Fafnir. During the fight his hand is bitten off, but he afterwards receives a fully articulate metal replacement with intricate wiring in place of tendons.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5414" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1219" RevisionGUID="10762767-714f-420d-8fa0-ccbef6de6c43" CreationDate="2015-12-06T18:44:49.890" UserId="188" Text="Are there any other mythologicals that got a replacement metal arm, other than Nuada, Lugh Llaw Ereint, and Sigurd?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5415" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1219" RevisionGUID="10762767-714f-420d-8fa0-ccbef6de6c43" CreationDate="2015-12-06T18:44:49.890" UserId="188" Text="|norse|comparative|welsh|gods|celtic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5416" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1220" RevisionGUID="10e2b900-0ebb-48c4-8f90-14f7760954dd" CreationDate="2015-12-08T00:32:40.210" UserId="967" Text="The one that you would break first would be the death of you, or if you were a god, then you &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;had to suffer one year without ambrosia and nectar, the food of the gods; after that time, it was prohibited to the oath-breaker for further nine years to attend the meetings of the other deities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you were human, there wasn't a &quot;divine punishment,&quot; but it would be like committing perjury; you would be known as a liar." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5417" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1213" RevisionGUID="9538e0d7-45d4-4345-8410-d0a58c8fc999" CreationDate="2015-12-08T01:58:43.330" UserId="987" Comment="edited title" Text="What would happen if you made contradictory vows on the River Styx?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5418" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1220" RevisionGUID="3fc2e93f-ffe2-4ac1-b491-57226462af08" CreationDate="2015-12-08T02:35:24.260" UserId="967" Comment="added 120 characters in body" Text="The one that you would break first would be the breaking of the oath, or if you were a god, then you &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;had to suffer one year without ambrosia and nectar, the food of the gods; after that time, it was prohibited to the oath-breaker for further nine years to attend the meetings of the other deities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you were human, there wasn't a &quot;divine punishment,&quot; but it would be like committing perjury; you would be known as a liar. The Styx was mostly for gods and not humans to swear from.&#xD;&#xA;http://www.greek-gods.info/ancient-greek-gods/styx/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5419" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1220" RevisionGUID="44f5898b-0a0b-4b2d-8cd1-72f7e940dcbe" CreationDate="2015-12-08T03:24:15.823" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 6 characters in body" Text="The one that you would break first would be the breaking of the oath, or if you were a god, then you &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;had to suffer one year without ambrosia and nectar, the food of the gods; after that time, it was prohibited to the oath-breaker for further nine years to attend the meetings of the other deities.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; http://www.greek-gods.info/ancient-greek-gods/styx/&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you were human, there wasn't a &quot;divine punishment,&quot; but it would be like committing perjury; you would be known as a liar. The Styx was mostly for gods and not humans to swear from.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5420" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1221" RevisionGUID="52ad01a6-74a4-4822-8e48-92aa0314ac07" CreationDate="2015-12-08T15:55:26.150" UserId="997" Text="I would like to know if there are some names of creatures that become stronger and more powerful by feeding with living beings negative emotions like fear, anger, greed etc?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5421" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1221" RevisionGUID="52ad01a6-74a4-4822-8e48-92aa0314ac07" CreationDate="2015-12-08T15:55:26.150" UserId="997" Text="Spirits/Demons/Other that feed with human energy, mostly feelings emotions?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5422" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1221" RevisionGUID="52ad01a6-74a4-4822-8e48-92aa0314ac07" CreationDate="2015-12-08T15:55:26.150" UserId="997" Text="|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5423" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1221" RevisionGUID="0cc24459-990f-4492-a07b-1352006a8e0b" CreationDate="2015-12-08T20:58:24.157" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 13 characters in body; edited title" Text="Is there a common, categorical name for creatures that become stronger and more powerful by feeding off living beings, such as emotions like fear, anger, greed?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5424" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1221" RevisionGUID="0cc24459-990f-4492-a07b-1352006a8e0b" CreationDate="2015-12-08T20:58:24.157" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 13 characters in body; edited title" Text="Is there a name for the type of creatures that feeds off human energy, such as emotions?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5425" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1221" RevisionGUID="f6bb0697-c1ab-41ee-a3e0-289f40b4a000" CreationDate="2015-12-09T12:26:34.647" UserId="108" Comment="edited title" Text="Is there a word for the type of creatures that feeds off human energy, such as emotions?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5426" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1222" RevisionGUID="5e827a33-de81-4158-90e3-7a2360dad92b" CreationDate="2015-12-10T02:07:00.817" UserId="292" Text="There is another candidate for Njord's sister: [Njorun][1]. Her claim isn't a lot better than Nerthus', based mainly on linguistic similiarity. Njorun turns up in a list of goddesses, and in kennings. (Dream-Njorun, for night, appears in [Alvissmal][2].) You can read more about the [case for Njorun][3], but the identity of Njord's sister/wife is clearly one of those mysteries that will never be resolved. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nj%C3%B6run&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.northvegr.org/the%20eddas/the%20poetic%20edda%20%20-%20thorpe%20translation/alv%C3%ADssm%C3%A1l%20-%20the%20lay%20of%20the%20dwarf%20alvis.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.academia.edu/2315070/Goddesses_Unknown_I_Nj%C7%ABrun_and_the_Sister-Wife_of_Nj%C7%ABr%C3%B0r" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5427" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1223" RevisionGUID="6e4574e7-3277-4ee6-ba44-2007213729b9" CreationDate="2015-12-10T21:38:57.737" UserId="1005" Text="In Ancient Greece, there were many different phenomena in the world that were explained by stories or myths, usually involving gods, such as the changing of the seasons or the obtainment of fire. What did the myth of Oedipus serve, or was it simply a &quot;good story&quot; made to be dramatized on stage?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5428" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1223" RevisionGUID="6e4574e7-3277-4ee6-ba44-2007213729b9" CreationDate="2015-12-10T21:38:57.737" UserId="1005" Text="What purpose did the myth of Oedipus serve?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5429" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1223" RevisionGUID="6e4574e7-3277-4ee6-ba44-2007213729b9" CreationDate="2015-12-10T21:38:57.737" UserId="1005" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5430" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1224" RevisionGUID="7cf14171-3f62-4a81-b211-2bec3958349d" CreationDate="2015-12-11T13:21:42.107" UserId="965" Text="The following text is from the [wiki][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Atlas and his brother Menoetius sided with the Titans in their war&#xD;&#xA;&gt; against the Olympians, the Titanomachy. When the Titans were defeated,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; many of them (including Menoetius) were confined to Tartarus, but Zeus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; condemned Atlas to **stand at the western edge of Gaia** (the Earth)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and hold up **The Heavens** on his shoulders, to **prevent the two&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from resuming their primordial embrace**. Thus, he was Atlas Telamon,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;enduring Atlas,&quot; and became a doublet of Coeus, the embodiment of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; celestial axis around which the heavens revolve.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_%28mythology%29&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So in a way, its the moment in creation, that the earth is separated from the heavens (or the opposite). The punishment inflicted by Zeus, for the punished Titans to live in the world of mortals.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Atlas holds the celestial sphere to separate Gaia(Earth) from Uranus(Sky). If they united together once more, Gaia might start birthing titans again and the gods(and everyone else) agree that this is a bad thing.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;They were not separated before Atlas.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Can't find anything else relative." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5431" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1224" RevisionGUID="0c814083-558d-487d-a50a-a7b871a8017d" CreationDate="2015-12-11T13:28:00.010" UserId="965" Comment="added 22 characters in body" Text="The following text is from the [wiki][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Atlas and his brother Menoetius sided with the Titans in their war&#xD;&#xA;&gt; against the Olympians, the Titanomachy. When the Titans were defeated,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; many of them (including Menoetius) were confined to Tartarus, but Zeus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; condemned Atlas to **stand at the western edge of Gaia** (the Earth)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and hold up **The Heavens** on his shoulders, to **prevent the two&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from resuming their primordial embrace**. Thus, he was Atlas Telamon,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;enduring Atlas,&quot; and became a doublet of Coeus, the embodiment of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; celestial axis around which the heavens revolve.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_%28mythology%29&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As i understand it:&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;a) In a way, its the moment in creation, that the earth is separated from the heavens (or the opposite). The punishment inflicted by Zeus, for the punished Titans to live in the world of mortals.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;b) Atlas holds the celestial sphere to separate Gaia(Earth) from Uranus(Sky). If they united together once more, Gaia might start birthing titans again and the Olympian Gods see that as bad thing.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In both scenarios, they were not separated before Atlas.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Can't find anything else relative." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5432" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1225" RevisionGUID="335143fb-cd00-469b-9c32-c6cf1d630771" CreationDate="2015-12-12T00:14:31.000" UserId="1010" Text="The lesson is that Fate reigns supreme over mortals and that you can't escape it. It also acts as a meta-rule for other myths.&#xD;&#xA;Since prophecies are bestowed by the gods, it's about remembering one's place in the universe and not questioning it." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5433" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1226" RevisionGUID="80928cb2-992e-40a1-81e6-b64dbc41c548" CreationDate="2015-12-13T23:09:23.933" UserId="967" Text="According to http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Titanes.html, &#xD;&#xA;    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hyperion, Krios, Koios and Iapetos--were posted at the four corners of the earth to hold Sky fast,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;even though that was only for the murdering of their father, they were each rewarded a corner of the earth." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5434" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1227" RevisionGUID="d0f608f8-0b02-40c9-bf74-f6cc72248e6c" CreationDate="2015-12-14T01:02:44.507" UserId="967" Text="What is the relationship between the Oedipus Complex and the guy Oedipus? Is there any? It is a big jump between someone who answered a riddle to the complex." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5435" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1227" RevisionGUID="d0f608f8-0b02-40c9-bf74-f6cc72248e6c" CreationDate="2015-12-14T01:02:44.507" UserId="967" Text="Oedipus Complex = Oedipus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5436" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1227" RevisionGUID="d0f608f8-0b02-40c9-bf74-f6cc72248e6c" CreationDate="2015-12-14T01:02:44.507" UserId="967" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5437" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1227" RevisionGUID="4f6f7f75-cd10-48f8-8798-fed953190752" CreationDate="2015-12-14T03:40:09.483" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 18 characters in body; edited title" Text="What is the relationship between the Oedipus Complex and the character Oedipus? Is there any? It is a big jump between someone who answered a riddle to a psychological complex." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5438" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1227" RevisionGUID="4f6f7f75-cd10-48f8-8798-fed953190752" CreationDate="2015-12-14T03:40:09.483" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 18 characters in body; edited title" Text="Why is the Oedipus Complex named after Oedipus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5440" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1228" RevisionGUID="77a55126-6286-4758-a132-52a744c6dd09" CreationDate="2015-12-14T18:58:26.397" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5441" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1229" RevisionGUID="20ffe36a-2ff2-431c-8f90-894135321b5e" CreationDate="2015-12-14T18:58:26.397" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5442" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1221" RevisionGUID="fcb80fec-f969-4d1c-968a-61685af2cbb8" CreationDate="2015-12-14T19:13:49.850" UserId="967" Comment="Some clarifications" Text="Is there a common, categorical name for creatures that become stronger and more powerful by feeding off living beings' emotions, such as fear, anger, greed?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5443" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1221" RevisionGUID="fcb80fec-f969-4d1c-968a-61685af2cbb8" CreationDate="2015-12-14T19:13:49.850" Comment="Proposed by 967 approved by 111, 62 edit id of 248" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5447" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1130" RevisionGUID="82ee1e8d-03cd-40dc-b0f3-f8b8a49aa5f4" CreationDate="2015-12-15T01:03:25.623" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="quotes" Text="The actual answer to the question:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  The first reference to the sword in the stone is to be found only in the prose redaction of Robert de Boron’s *Merlin*. Of the original poem only some five hundred lines survive. Considering that, and the way scribes could elaborate on their sources, we can not now be sure whether the sword in the stone featured in Robert’s own work or not. Whichever is the case, the work does predate the Vulgate Cycle and the other prose works important to this discussion.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Toohey, Kathleen, King Arthur's Swords][4])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If anyone is interested, you can [read the Prose Merlin online][5].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have not found any *historical* reference to anyone pulling out a sword from a stone. I think this makes sense, because I imagine that it would be hard to put a sword there in the first place. Sarcasm aside, if you find a historical reference to someone pulling a sword our of something, feel free to let me know in the comments.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The following is in response to some of the things said in the original question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm really sorry, but it is not a &quot;theory&quot; that the story of the sword in the stone originated from [Arthurian legend][1]. This is a fact. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. The google document (why didn't you just link to the wikipedia page that the google document is copied from?) is a copy of [the wikipedia page for the movie The Last Legion][2]. This movie is &quot;a 2007 Fantasy film&quot; that combines Arthurian legend with roman history.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. You say that `&quot;Some say that it was based in Rome and Merlin first possessed the sword given and made for Caesar Augustus, who ruled in Rome in 27 BC until 14 AD. Passing down the sword to each generation eventually being thrown into a stone that only a true Caesar could pull out.&quot;` *That is only true in the movie The Last Legion*, which, as stated previously, is a work of fantasy. This is not actual history.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. The legend of the sword in the stone, minus the stuff about Caesar Augustus (which, as stated previously, is from the movie The Last Legion), is from [Arthurian legend][1].  T.H. White is the author of [a children's book][3], which is *also* based on Arthurian legend.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The legend of the sword and the stone is a component of Arthurian legend. Arthurian legend is a collection of old stories about King Arthur. A common feature in many of those stories is the mini-story of the &quot;Sword in the Stone&quot;, which features King Arthur pulling a sword out of a stone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot-project&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Legion&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Once_and_Future_King&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.academia.edu/11478175/King_Arthurs_Swords&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://d.lib.rochester.edu/teams/publication/conlee-prose-merlin" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5448" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1230" RevisionGUID="4e133263-27ae-4e50-bce2-0332cadda9a2" CreationDate="2015-12-15T08:12:44.707" UserId="110" Text="The full story (in short) of Oedipus is that his father heard a prophecy that his son will kill me. So he threw him away (basically ordered him to be killed but the killers spared him). After growing up he came back (solved the riddle on his way back) and then rebelled against his dad (without knowing that he was his father), killed him, and married his mother having children with her. After he found out that he in fact married his mother and killed his father he took his eyes out. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Basically the prophecy that Oedipus' father heard was in fact a self fulfilling prophecy. If he never had ordered his son to be killed, he would never return to kill him." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5449" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1227" RevisionGUID="5cc41025-9322-470f-9a7d-dda5c6a597fe" CreationDate="2015-12-15T08:14:17.380" UserId="108" Comment="edited title" Text="Why is the Oedipus complex in named after Oedipus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5451" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1223" RevisionGUID="c048b348-796c-4ce4-89bb-3929c0dd2f7c" CreationDate="2015-12-15T08:20:09.550" UserId="108" Comment="deleted false dichotomy from the question" Text="In Ancient Greece, there were many different phenomena in the world that were explained by stories or myths, usually involving gods, such as the changing of the seasons or the obtainment of fire. Did the myth of Oedipus serve a similar purpose?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5452" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1226" RevisionGUID="fec51696-cf46-4f1c-95f5-8e0d3971b682" CreationDate="2015-12-15T08:32:00.773" UserId="108" Comment="added 21 characters in body" Text="According to the [Theoi Project](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Titanes.html), &#xD;&#xA;    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hyperion, Krios, Koios and Iapetos--were posted at the four corners of the earth to hold Sky fast,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;even though that was only for the murdering of their father, they were each rewarded a corner of the earth." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5454" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1225" RevisionGUID="a903d14f-682f-4530-810c-70314ef04067" CreationDate="2015-12-15T09:38:01.813" UserId="1010" Comment="Put comment in the answer." Text="[Caveat: personal interpretation]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The lesson is that Fate reigns supreme over mortals and that you can't escape it. It also acts as a meta-rule for other myths.&#xD;&#xA;Since prophecies are bestowed by the gods, it's about remembering one's place in the universe and not questioning it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's a recurring theme in myths involving prophecies across all cultures, as well as in stories that involve characters breaking customs or not respecting rituals. If you agree that one of the purposes of myths is to reinforce norms, this kind of story is about the power of the myths themselves, how they shouldn't be dismissed. I can't think of a single instance of a classical protagonist who defied Fate and profited from it." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5456" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1224" RevisionGUID="fe2a26be-7932-4508-83ca-26064adff038" CreationDate="2015-12-15T14:25:41.017" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 58 characters in body" Text="The following text is from the [wiki][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Atlas and his brother Menoetius sided with the Titans in their war&#xD;&#xA;&gt; against the Olympians, the Titanomachy. When the Titans were defeated,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; many of them (including Menoetius) were confined to Tartarus, but Zeus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; condemned Atlas to **stand at the western edge of Gaia** (the Earth)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and hold up **The Heavens** on his shoulders, to **prevent the two&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from resuming their primordial embrace**. Thus, he was Atlas Telamon,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;enduring Atlas,&quot; and became a doublet of Coeus, the embodiment of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; celestial axis around which the heavens revolve.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_%28mythology%29&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As I understand it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;a) In a way, its the moment in creation, that the earth is separated from the heavens (or the opposite). The punishment inflicted by Zeus, for the punished Titans to live in the world of mortals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;b) Atlas holds the celestial sphere to separate Gaia(Earth) from Uranus(Sky). If they united together once more, Gaia might start birthing titans again and the Olympian Gods see that as bad thing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In both scenarios, they were not separated before Atlas." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5457" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1230" RevisionGUID="a390d4a4-0a28-4504-8054-4f628a7ec752" CreationDate="2015-12-15T14:29:44.327" UserId="57" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="The full story (in short) of Oedipus is that his father heard a prophecy that his son will kill him. So he threw him away (basically ordered him to be killed but the killers spared him). After growing up he came back (solved the riddle on his way back) and then rebelled against his dad (without knowing that he was his father), killed him, and married his mother having children with her. After he found out that he in fact married his mother and killed his father he took his eyes out. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Basically the prophecy that Oedipus' father heard was in fact a self fulfilling prophecy. If he never had ordered his son to be killed, he would never return to kill him." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5458" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1231" RevisionGUID="7117e0ff-b2d0-43b9-98c9-1a411202153c" CreationDate="2015-12-15T14:47:49.827" UserId="1018" Text="Psychic vampires. &#xA;https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychic_vampire&#xA;&#xA;There is a popular myth that they feed on people's emotions, especially negative ones. This is also sometimes attributed to people who seem to provoke negative emotions in others on purpose." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5459" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1231" RevisionGUID="61b97f91-c8fc-490a-bc89-268c2c2849f6" CreationDate="2015-12-15T15:55:14.217" UserId="1018" Comment="added 39 characters in body" Text="Psychic vampires. &#xA;[Here's a Wikipedia entry][1]&#xA;&#xA;There is a popular myth that they feed on people's emotions, especially negative ones. This is also sometimes attributed to people who seem to provoke negative emotions in others on purpose.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychic_vampire" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5460" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1223" RevisionGUID="95962776-ab34-434f-a695-131656410985" CreationDate="2015-12-15T16:49:52.827" UserId="1005" Comment="added 79 characters in body" Text="In Ancient Greece, there were many different phenomena in the world that were explained by stories or myths, usually involving gods, such as the changing of the seasons or the obtainment of fire. Other times, myths served as intriguing plays meant to be dramatized on stage. Did the myth of Oedipus serve a similar purpose?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5461" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1230" RevisionGUID="3b0e6145-e50f-4a28-b8f2-4797cbb1915c" CreationDate="2015-12-15T17:19:28.180" UserId="110" Comment="added 209 characters in body" Text="The full story (in short) of Oedipus is that his father heard a prophecy that his son will kill him. So he threw him away (basically ordered him to be killed but the killers spared him). After growing up he came back (solved the riddle on his way back) and then rebelled against his dad (without knowing that he was his father), killed him, and married his mother having children with her. After he found out that he in fact married his mother and killed his father he took his eyes out. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Basically the prophecy that Oedipus' father heard was in fact a self fulfilling prophecy. If he never had ordered his son to be killed, he would never return to kill him. &#xA;&#xA;So since Oedipus killed his father, fell in love woth and married his own mother, the Oedipus syndrome was named after him. As the syndrom means loving your mother so much and tendency to murder your father" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5462" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1230" RevisionGUID="aa5f9737-92fb-404c-ac82-cc7ae7f3393b" CreationDate="2015-12-15T17:22:58.660" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 112 characters in body" Text="The full story (in short) of Oedipus is that his father heard a prophecy that his son will kill him. So he threw him away (basically ordered him to be killed but the killers spared him). After growing up he came back (solved the riddle on his way back) and then rebelled against his dad (without knowing that he was his father), killed him, and married his mother having children with her. After he found out that he in fact married his mother and killed his father he took his eyes out. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Basically the prophecy that Oedipus' father heard was in fact a self fulfilling prophecy. If he never had ordered his son to be killed, he would never return to kill him. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So since Oedipus killed his father, fell in love with and married his own mother, the Oedipus syndrome was named after him. To simplify things enormously, the complex refers to a subconscious love for one's mother, and thus jealousy towards one's father (as the father has a legitimate relationship with the mother)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5463" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1227" RevisionGUID="af0fc2ee-189a-4dfd-bc70-aff1df6e8028" CreationDate="2015-12-15T17:23:37.197" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited title" Text="Why is the Oedipus complex named after Oedipus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5464" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1225" RevisionGUID="63c4e428-3515-489b-aec6-61be87bd06af" CreationDate="2015-12-15T17:33:13.317" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="[Caveat: personal interpretation]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The lesson is that Fate reigns supreme over mortals and that you can't escape it. It also acts as a meta-rule for other myths.&#xD;&#xA;Since prophecies are bestowed by the gods, it's about remembering one's place in the universe and not questioning it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's a recurring theme in myths involving prophecies across western cultures, as well as in stories that involve characters breaking customs or not respecting rituals. If you agree that one of the purposes of myths is to reinforce norms, this kind of story is about the power of the myths themselves, how they shouldn't be dismissed. I can't think of a single instance of a classical protagonist who defied Fate and profited from it." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5465" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1228" RevisionGUID="a81f0bae-8f68-4aac-b375-597751c51022" CreationDate="2015-12-15T21:10:15.197" UserId="53" Comment="added 124 characters in body" Text="The Vimana  (विमान) are flying craft used by the gods in the ancient Sanskrit texts, including the Ramayana and Mahabharata." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5466" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1228" RevisionGUID="a81f0bae-8f68-4aac-b375-597751c51022" CreationDate="2015-12-15T21:10:15.197" Comment="Proposed by 53 approved by 183 edit id of 249" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5467" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1229" RevisionGUID="6e803a6f-5cd7-4add-9315-965e0c2fe7ba" CreationDate="2015-12-15T21:10:18.023" UserId="53" Comment="added 51 characters in body" Text="The flying chariots of the gods in the Indian epics" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5468" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1229" RevisionGUID="6e803a6f-5cd7-4add-9315-965e0c2fe7ba" CreationDate="2015-12-15T21:10:18.023" Comment="Proposed by 53 approved by 183 edit id of 250" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5469" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1232" RevisionGUID="9740a742-f878-4513-b077-f0295ed76945" CreationDate="2015-12-15T22:01:46.663" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="A third point that I feel should be mentioned in any discussion of Joseph Campbell: although Joseph Campbell is very popular with the general public, there are a number of significant flaws in his theory that haven't been addressed. [To quote from Alan Dundes, a professor of Folklore and Anthropology at the University of California, Berkeley][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; My  sole  point  in  mentioning this disheartening  incident is to  suggest that for  many  members of the literate public, the  study  of folklore means precisely Campbell and his writings. Yet professional folklorists  have said very little about the huge corpus of Campbelliana.  I do not know if  any  of his many books were ever even reviewed in JAF.  Is this a case of &quot;silence gives assent&quot;?  Very likely more people were introduced  to the  subject  matter of folklore by  the writings  of  Campbell or the PBS television series of lectures by  him than by any  other source. And yet we folklorists have said little or nothing about him and his theories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dundes makes a number of criticisms of Joseph Campbell. One of these is of his assumption that myths are universal, which, as Dundes quickly proves, is not the case. To quote from Dundes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;It has  long  been a  popular fantasy among  amateur students of  myth  that all peoples share the same stories. This is  clearly  an  example  of wishful thinking. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Examples of myths that Joseph Campbell claims to be universal but which are not are include:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. The flood myth, which is &quot;absent from sub-Saharan Africa&quot; (Dundes).&#xD;&#xA;2. The &quot;virgin-birth&quot; motif, which is only present in three separate myths (Dundes).&#xD;&#xA;3. The &quot;belly of the whale&quot; motif: this &quot;motif&quot; is only present in the old testament (Dundes). The only other example Campbell cites of a &quot;belly of the wale&quot; motif -- the story of Red Riding Hood -- is a horrible example. Red Riding Hood is only swallowed by a wolf in the written version of the story; in the oral version of the story &quot;the  girl  is not swallowed by  the wolf at all... Instead she  escapes through  a clever ruse  by pretending to need to go  outside to defecate&quot; (Dundes).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think it would be safe to say that Joseph Campbell's arguments that the monomyth is &quot;universal&quot; aren't very sound. If you are interested in reading more, [Dundes' article is available on JSTOR][1], which you can usually access for free from a [public library][2]. Dundes has other criticisms of of Campbell, but they aren't relevant to the question asked by the OP.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/4137664&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.worldcat.org/libraries" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5470" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="82" RevisionGUID="f3c3c579-8762-4846-be5d-ee030fc201a3" CreationDate="2015-12-15T22:34:32.423" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|comparative|monomyth|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5471" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1232" RevisionGUID="4292e3d2-3b3b-41f1-899b-db120803346e" CreationDate="2015-12-15T22:42:55.080" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 97 characters in body" Text="A third point that I feel should be mentioned in any discussion of Joseph Campbell: although Joseph Campbell is very popular with the general public, there are a number of significant flaws in his theory that haven't been addressed. [To quote from Alan Dundes, a professor of Folklore and Anthropology at the University of California, Berkeley][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; My  sole  point  in  mentioning this disheartening  incident is to  suggest that for  many  members of the literate public, the  study  of folklore means precisely Campbell and his writings. Yet professional folklorists  have said very little about the huge corpus of Campbelliana.  I do not know if  any  of his many books were ever even reviewed in JAF.  Is this a case of &quot;silence gives assent&quot;?  Very likely more people were introduced  to the  subject  matter of folklore by  the writings  of  Campbell or the PBS television series of lectures by  him than by any  other source. And yet we folklorists have said little or nothing about him and his theories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dundes makes a number of criticisms of Joseph Campbell. One of these is of his assumption that myths are universal, which, as Dundes quickly proves, is not the case. To quote from Dundes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;It has  long  been a  popular fantasy among  amateur students of  myth  that all peoples share the same stories. This is  clearly  an  example  of wishful thinking. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Examples of myths that Joseph Campbell claims to be universal but which are not are include:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. The flood myth, which is &quot;absent from sub-Saharan Africa&quot; (Dundes).&#xD;&#xA;2. The &quot;virgin-birth&quot; motif, which is only present in three separate myths, and is absent from &quot;Africa... Siberia, Polynesia, ... Melanesia, ... Australia and New  Guinea&quot; (Dundes).&#xD;&#xA;3. The &quot;belly of the whale&quot; motif: this &quot;motif&quot; is only present in the old testament (Dundes). The only other example Campbell cites of a &quot;belly of the wale&quot; motif -- the story of Red Riding Hood -- is a horrible example. Red Riding Hood is only swallowed by a wolf in the written version of the story; in the oral version of the story &quot;the  girl  is not swallowed by  the wolf at all... Instead she  escapes through  a clever ruse  by pretending to need to go  outside to defecate&quot; (Dundes).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think it would be safe to say that Joseph Campbell's arguments that the monomyth is &quot;universal&quot; aren't very sound. If you are interested in reading more, [Dundes' article is available on JSTOR][1], which you can usually access for free from a [public library][2]. Dundes has other criticisms of of Campbell, but they aren't relevant to the question asked by the OP.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/4137664&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.worldcat.org/libraries" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5472" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1062" RevisionGUID="22118031-0de7-4e1d-be9d-ca645e24075c" CreationDate="2015-12-16T01:37:29.427" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added link to explain why Campbell is playing fast &amp; lose w/ evidence -- hope no one minds me linking to my own answer" Text="Well, this assumes that Campbell is accurate! [Campbell is playing fast, loose, and vague with the evidence][1], but that's a different story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ancients as far as I am aware did not recognize Campbell's &quot;monomyth.&quot; They did, however, recognize a few things. First, at least with Mediterranean and Near Eastern cultures, they all engaged in a process of _interpretatio_, through which various heroes and deities were seen as the same. Heracles was Melqart, though the Greeks called both &quot;Heracles&quot;, one &quot;Tyrian&quot; and the other &quot;Greek.&quot; (Herodotus, [2.43–45][2], Cicero, _De Natura Deorum_, [3.43][3])This was very common.[4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another process common especially during the Hellenistic era was something called &quot;Euhemerism,&quot; named after Euhemerus, a Greek philosopher who thought e.g. the gods were once kings and mighty men who subsequently were worshiped as gods. This presumes an interpretation of similarities, though not of journeys, but of kingship.[5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does this answer your question?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/1232/62&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hh/hh2040.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Cicero/de_Natura_Deorum/3A*.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://books.google.com/books?id=Q1xbAgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA138&amp;dq=interpretatio+mediterranean&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0CDcQ6AEwBGoVChMIyMCo5q-rxwIVAVYeCh0d4AA-#v=onepage&amp;q=interpretatio%20mediterranean&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://books.google.com/books?id=OWS8TUTWLvAC&amp;pg=PA123" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5473" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1233" RevisionGUID="8364dd69-8aa9-471b-a463-87c83fbf805a" CreationDate="2015-12-17T00:08:32.033" UserId="1020" Text="The staff carried by Hermes and Mercury known as the Caduceus is one of my favorite symbols. &#xD;&#xA;For those that are visual thinkers I have pictured it below &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Caduceus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am planning on getting a tattoo of it in the near future. Before I ink my body with the symbol, I wanted to know what, if any, negative connotations are associated with the symbol ? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know of Mercury and Larunda (Though I have never read the actual story it occurred in) and how sometimes this is interpreted as rape. I don't know if that story is just Greek and Roman or just Roman... that would also be a helpful tidbit of knowledge. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Overall though I am wondering if there are any other negative associations connected to this symbol. Thanks. &#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/uZULw.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5474" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1233" RevisionGUID="8364dd69-8aa9-471b-a463-87c83fbf805a" CreationDate="2015-12-17T00:08:32.033" UserId="1020" Text="Negative connotations of the Caduceus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5475" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1233" RevisionGUID="8364dd69-8aa9-471b-a463-87c83fbf805a" CreationDate="2015-12-17T00:08:32.033" UserId="1020" Text="|greek|roman|symbolism|hermes|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5476" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1233" RevisionGUID="15123bc7-660b-423a-9b77-e44ed6382693" CreationDate="2015-12-17T02:13:41.990" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="deleted 152 characters in body" Text="The staff carried by Hermes and Mercury known as the Caduceus is one of my favorite symbols. For those that are visual thinkers I have pictured it below:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![The Caduceus][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am planning on getting a tattoo of it in the near future. Before I ink my body with the symbol, I wanted to know what, if any, negative connotations are associated with the symbol? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know of Mercury and Larunda (Though I have never read the actual story it occurred in) and how sometimes this is interpreted as rape. I don't know if that story is just Greek and Roman or just Roman... that would also be a helpful tidbit of knowledge. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/uZULw.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5477" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1233" RevisionGUID="f6e10c81-3030-4394-a9b7-048ec6efbe4b" CreationDate="2015-12-17T02:14:29.087" UserId="1020" Comment="added 110 characters in body" Text="The staff carried by Hermes and Mercury known as the Caduceus is one of my favorite symbols. For those that are visual thinkers I have pictured it below:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![The Caduceus][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am planning on getting a tattoo of it in the near future. Before I ink my body with the symbol, I wanted to know what, if any, negative connotations are associated with the symbol? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know of Mercury and Larunda (Though I have never read the actual story it occurred in) and how sometimes this is interpreted as rape. I don't know if that story is just Greek and Roman or just Roman... that would also be a helpful tidbit of knowledge. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Overall though I am wondering if there are any other negative associations connected to this symbol. Thanks.&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/uZULw.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5478" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1233" RevisionGUID="35908aa4-9af2-41fb-b273-eb552096ff0a" CreationDate="2015-12-17T02:21:13.140" UserId="108" Comment="edited title" Text="Are there any negative connotations with the Caduceus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5479" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1233" RevisionGUID="05a11def-8f20-48a8-80f9-86599945dc87" CreationDate="2015-12-17T02:47:42.870" UserId="967" Comment="Some clarifications" Text="The staff carried by Hermes and Mercury known as the Caduceus is one of my favorite symbols. For those that are visual thinkers I have pictured it below:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![The Caduceus][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am planning on getting a tattoo of the Caduceus in the near future. Before I ink my body with the symbol, I wanted to know what, if any, negative connotations are associated with the symbol? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know of Mercury and Larunda (Though I have never read the actual story it occurred in) and how sometimes this is interpreted as rape. I don't know if that story is just Greek and Roman or just Roman... that would also be a helpful tidbit of knowledge. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Overall, though I am wondering if there are any other negative connotations connected to this symbol. Thanks.&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/uZULw.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5480" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1233" RevisionGUID="05a11def-8f20-48a8-80f9-86599945dc87" CreationDate="2015-12-17T02:47:42.870" Comment="Proposed by 967 approved by 1020 edit id of 251" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5481" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1233" RevisionGUID="4bdc2b29-337f-4e37-b065-dfec190a3acc" CreationDate="2015-12-17T02:51:37.420" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 76 characters in body; edited title" Text="The staff carried by Hermes, or Mercury, which known as the Caduceus, is one of my favorite symbols. For those that are visual thinkers I have pictured it below:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![The Caduceus][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am planning on getting a tattoo of the Caduceus in the near future. Before I ink my body with the symbol, I wanted to know what, if any, negative connotations are associated with the symbol? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am familiar with the story of Mercury and Larunda (Though I have never read the actual story) and how sometimes this is interpreted as rape. I don't know if that story is just Greek and Roman or just Roman; an answer to that question would also be a helpful tidbit of knowledge. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, my main reason for asking this question is that I would like to learn if there are any other negative connotations connected to this symbol. &#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/uZULw.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5482" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1233" RevisionGUID="4bdc2b29-337f-4e37-b065-dfec190a3acc" CreationDate="2015-12-17T02:51:37.420" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 76 characters in body; edited title" Text="Are there any negative connotations associated with the Caduceus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5483" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1233" RevisionGUID="e95ef879-440c-4645-ae1c-7d1e42519283" CreationDate="2015-12-17T02:55:10.707" UserId="1020" Comment="deleted 4 characters in body" Text="The staff carried by Hermes/Mercury, which known as the Caduceus, is one of my favorite symbols. For those that are visual thinkers I have pictured it below:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![The Caduceus][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am planning on getting a tattoo of the Caduceus in the near future. Before I ink my body with the symbol, I wanted to know what, if any, negative connotations are associated with the symbol? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am familiar with the story of Mercury and Larunda (Though I have never read the actual story) and how sometimes this is interpreted as rape. I don't know if that story is Greek and Roman, or just Roman; an answer to that question would also be a helpful tidbit of knowledge. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, my main reason for asking this question is that I would like to learn if there are any other negative connotations connected to this symbol. &#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/uZULw.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5489" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1236" RevisionGUID="a74e2d76-295e-468c-bd1b-d9cfab386b51" CreationDate="2015-12-17T17:19:08.517" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5490" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1237" RevisionGUID="5c25938b-38af-4780-9baf-75d43962401b" CreationDate="2015-12-17T17:19:08.517" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5493" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1238" RevisionGUID="f0afd934-bfb5-429f-a579-4a856d107e39" CreationDate="2015-12-17T20:34:16.860" UserId="967" Text="Who was the oldest being ever to have existed in Greek Mythology? In other words, were there a set of beings before all of the primordial gods? Who was to have created the primordial gods? What was the beginning of everything? If this is like chicken and egg, just say that. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*By primordial gods I mean Gaea, Ouranos, and Pontus." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5494" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1238" RevisionGUID="f0afd934-bfb5-429f-a579-4a856d107e39" CreationDate="2015-12-17T20:34:16.860" UserId="967" Text="The oldest one (greek)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5495" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1238" RevisionGUID="f0afd934-bfb5-429f-a579-4a856d107e39" CreationDate="2015-12-17T20:34:16.860" UserId="967" Text="|greek|primordial-gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5496" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1239" RevisionGUID="85a09b70-c573-48d2-9b36-8555b0ccfd6f" CreationDate="2015-12-17T21:21:15.063" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5497" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1240" RevisionGUID="8db00ad4-9385-46e1-8d32-d2ae3f2120df" CreationDate="2015-12-17T21:21:15.063" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5498" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1241" RevisionGUID="253cb0d1-26f5-4b1f-b4ec-559b1433e6dc" CreationDate="2015-12-17T21:42:02.253" UserId="183" Text="[Hesiod's *Theogony*](http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm) is widely regarded as the most ubiquitous of the Greek &quot;creation myths&quot;.&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; One of the earlier passages reads&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (ll. 116-138) Verily at the first Chaos came to be, but next wide-bosomed Earth, the ever-sure foundations of all the deathless ones who hold the peaks of snowy Olympus, and dim Tartarus in the depth of the wide-pathed Earth, and Eros (Love), fairest among the deathless gods, who unnerves the limbs and overcomes the mind and wise counsels of all gods and all men within them. From Chaos came forth Erebus and black Night; but of Night were born Aether and Day, whom she conceived and bare from union in love with Erebus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Chaos is sometimes depicted as an entity rather than a deity of some sort - the thing that existed before the universe. If you ascribe personification to it, then it counts as the first being. However, if not, then the so-called primordial gods were first:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Earth (Gaia)&#xD;&#xA; - Tartarus&#xD;&#xA; - Eros&#xD;&#xA; - Erebus&#xD;&#xA; - Night&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aether and Day are also considered by most authors to be two other of the primordial gods, though not created directly from Chaos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; There are variations on the idea. For example, [Gaius Hyginus](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusFabulae1.html), a Roman scholar of Greek mythology, wrote that Chaos was formed from Mist, treating Chaos more as a being and Mist as something similar to Hesiod's depiction of Chaos. Hyginus is also notable for treating Earth as the child of Day and Aether, making the four deities born of Chaos and Caligine (a related but not well described entity) be Night, Day, Erebus, and Aether." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5499" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1237" RevisionGUID="b2db80e0-a271-46ec-a810-874641aa8c17" CreationDate="2015-12-17T21:49:47.747" UserId="967" Comment="added 77 characters in body" Text="The primordial god who was the Earth, the Mother of the mother of monsters..." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5500" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1237" RevisionGUID="b2db80e0-a271-46ec-a810-874641aa8c17" CreationDate="2015-12-17T21:49:47.747" Comment="Proposed by 967 approved by 183 edit id of 252" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5501" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1242" RevisionGUID="a4e62353-dad6-4042-8bcc-c484652a9105" CreationDate="2015-12-17T22:07:42.070" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5502" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1243" RevisionGUID="25277cbe-a761-421d-8ae6-05ae0cd9a081" CreationDate="2015-12-17T22:07:42.070" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5503" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1244" RevisionGUID="a42cbe68-226e-480d-beef-fac00128a5cd" CreationDate="2015-12-17T22:08:49.847" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5504" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1245" RevisionGUID="47bc3f18-9960-43cc-926f-34d62cc2fbb0" CreationDate="2015-12-17T22:08:49.847" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5505" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1246" RevisionGUID="a3c08675-dd49-41dd-878a-78527a4fe66b" CreationDate="2015-12-17T22:10:03.200" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5506" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1247" RevisionGUID="f5d609e1-a3ed-4e97-a134-775b0512cb3c" CreationDate="2015-12-17T22:10:03.200" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5507" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="112" RevisionGUID="7ed9b151-4206-4498-bf34-b9566be19feb" CreationDate="2015-12-17T22:56:03.273" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|roman|tacticus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5508" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1176" RevisionGUID="b318fbf1-78a3-4e9f-a532-6c88b92ebb71" CreationDate="2015-12-17T22:56:36.183" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|folklore|vampires|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5509" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1238" RevisionGUID="65af6b5c-7ee3-493c-9458-6bdcc5a2923d" CreationDate="2015-12-18T01:36:49.193" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="title wasn't very clear" Text="Who was the oldest being ever to have existed in Greek Mythology? In other words, were there a set of beings before all of the primordial gods? Who was to have created the primordial gods? What was the beginning of everything? If this is a chicken and the egg paradox, that could be an answer.. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*By primordial gods I mean Gaea, Ouranos, and Pontus." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5510" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1238" RevisionGUID="65af6b5c-7ee3-493c-9458-6bdcc5a2923d" CreationDate="2015-12-18T01:36:49.193" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="title wasn't very clear" Text="Who is the oldest being in greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5511" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1238" RevisionGUID="227e74c3-6824-4c22-abe1-35f4e87632a1" CreationDate="2015-12-18T02:56:23.047" UserId="967" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body" Text="Who was the oldest being ever to have existed in Greek Mythology? In other words, were there a set of beings before all of the primordial gods? Who was to have created the primordial gods? What was the beginning of everything? If this is a chicken and the egg paradox, that could be an answer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*By primordial gods I mean Gaea, Ouranos, and Pontus." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5512" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1248" RevisionGUID="cef30da7-b11c-420d-8f91-d0acd24de71d" CreationDate="2015-12-18T07:56:37.570" UserId="1025" Text=" In Greek mythology, Medusa was raped by the sea god Poseidon in the Temple of Athena. Athena bearing no emotion and finding no fault in Poseidon, was furious with Medusa. My question is whould Athena not find any fault with Poseidon? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5513" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1248" RevisionGUID="cef30da7-b11c-420d-8f91-d0acd24de71d" CreationDate="2015-12-18T07:56:37.570" UserId="1025" Text="Athena not finding any fault in Poseidon for doing it with Medusa" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5514" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1248" RevisionGUID="cef30da7-b11c-420d-8f91-d0acd24de71d" CreationDate="2015-12-18T07:56:37.570" UserId="1025" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5515" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="112" RevisionGUID="d55bb90c-a951-449a-9c01-71ed22b74435" CreationDate="2015-12-18T08:21:48.937" UserId="111" Comment="corrected typo in tag" Text="|greek|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5517" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1248" RevisionGUID="b04781a5-17a2-4e2f-a3ae-050901e45d6a" CreationDate="2015-12-18T12:23:33.190" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="made question easier to read" Text="In Greek mythology, Medusa was raped by the sea god Poseidon in the Temple of Athena. Athena found no fault in Poseidon, but was furious with Medusa. My question is why would Athena not find any fault with Poseidon? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5518" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1248" RevisionGUID="b04781a5-17a2-4e2f-a3ae-050901e45d6a" CreationDate="2015-12-18T12:23:33.190" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="made question easier to read" Text="Why does Athena not hold Poseidon responsible?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5519" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1248" RevisionGUID="380f479b-df6c-4b25-912e-8776e0122fe8" CreationDate="2015-12-18T18:11:37.077" UserId="108" Comment="Made the title make sense again." Text="Why does Athena not hold Poseidon responsible for desecrating her temple with Medusa?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5521" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1249" RevisionGUID="d2942bc9-b493-4817-8eb0-eaadc06be0f8" CreationDate="2015-12-19T19:47:24.087" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="&gt;I have heard that classicists dispute that his account of the myths is valid&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yes. In this case you can trust the wikipedia page, because it extensively cites its sources.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this case, I think that the Wikipedia author understates the degree of inaccuracy of Robert Graves' work. [One review of the book rips apart essentially every aspect of Grave's scholarship][1], and all of the reviews I have found that aren't extremely old (i.e. from the 1950s) all agree that Graves' work isn't useful as a scholarly account of Greek mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Are Graves' myths mythologically valid in these senses? What purposes could they be used for?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you are looking for an accurate depiction of Greek Mythology, I would stay as far away from Graves' book as possible. [There are plenty of other sources that depict Greek mythology accurately][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there is value in Graves' work, but only if you treat it as a fictional account of Greek mythology. Most critics seem to agree that Graves' works are beautifully written; [one source claims][3] that &quot;some of the most beautiful poems of our time&quot; come from Graves' work. [Another source][3] describes Graves as having &quot;fashioned a modern  myth  out of ancient material.&quot; To me, it sounds like Graves' works have value as a fictional mythology (like Tolkien's Silmarillion), and not as an accurate portrayal of Greek myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Disclaimer: I haven't actually read anything written by Robert Graves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/704652&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/1133/62&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/1396557" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5528" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1251" RevisionGUID="3aaa879e-3c0e-40db-b04a-fc9ccdfdd8f6" CreationDate="2015-12-20T16:13:06.727" UserId="183" Text="In Hesiod's [*Theogony*](http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm), he writes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And there she has a cave deep down under a hollow rock far from the deathless gods and mortal men. There, then, did the gods appoint her a glorious house to dwell in: and she keeps guard in Arima beneath the earth, grim Echidna, a nymph who dies not nor grows old all her days.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are various interpretations as to where Arima's location is, including remote islands and the Underworld, thanks in part to other writings. However, the *Theogony* seems to imply that the gods placed Echidna at Arima to &quot;keep guard&quot; of something. If we were to assume that Arima is in the Underworld, then this makes more sense. Otherwise, it does not.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What was the purpose of putting Echidna at Arima?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5529" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1251" RevisionGUID="3aaa879e-3c0e-40db-b04a-fc9ccdfdd8f6" CreationDate="2015-12-20T16:13:06.727" UserId="183" Text="Why is Echidna at Arima?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5530" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1251" RevisionGUID="3aaa879e-3c0e-40db-b04a-fc9ccdfdd8f6" CreationDate="2015-12-20T16:13:06.727" UserId="183" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5531" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="822" RevisionGUID="1884da69-be14-4b94-bdda-4bd6b2d07dfe" CreationDate="2015-12-20T16:22:42.737" UserId="183" Comment="Fixed misspelling in tag name." Text="In Geoffrey of Monmouth's [*Historia Regum Britanniae*](http://books.google.com/books/reader?id=FUoMAAAAIAAJ&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;output=reader&amp;source=gbs_atb_hover&amp;pg=GBS.PA19), Brutus wanders about western Europe, stopping in, amongst other places, Aquitane and Gaul. He vanquished Goffarius, king of the Pictavians at Aquitane, with the help of Corineus, the leader of the people who will become known as the Cornish. The next passage (page 17) reads,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The king [Goffarius] after a narrow escape went to several parts of Gaul, to procure succours among such princes as were related or known to him. At that time Gaul was subject to twelve princes, who with equal authority possess the whole country. These receive him courteously, and promise with one consent to expel the foreigners from Aquitane.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who were the twelve princes?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5532" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="822" RevisionGUID="1884da69-be14-4b94-bdda-4bd6b2d07dfe" CreationDate="2015-12-20T16:22:42.737" UserId="183" Comment="Fixed misspelling in tag name." Text="|historia-regum-britanniae|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5533" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1252" RevisionGUID="85cc621d-5c3d-430e-b913-09a9a5f18f4f" CreationDate="2015-12-20T16:23:13.873" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="One translation of [tag:historia-regum-brittaniae] can be found [here](https://books.google.com/books/reader?id=FUoMAAAAIAAJ&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;output=reader&amp;source=gbs_atb_hover&amp;hl=en&amp;pg=GBS.PA3)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5534" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1253" RevisionGUID="877d35e2-2c91-444f-b8b8-845305241021" CreationDate="2015-12-20T16:23:13.873" UserId="183" Text="For questions about the tale by Geoffrey of Monmouth about the fictitious chronology of the history of the kings of Britain." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5535" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1133" RevisionGUID="c2a1bf93-89ad-4176-98a1-118a5048ee62" CreationDate="2015-12-20T18:17:43.643" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 26 characters in body" Text="Welcome to the site, and welcome to the interesting world of mythology! Here are some resources for you to get started with.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By far the easiest way to learn more about mythology is to go to [your local library][1] and borrow one of their books about mythology. Don't worry about selecting the &quot;right&quot; source; just select a book that looks interesting to you. Remember, you are a beginner, therefore you don't know anything about mythology, and therefore *any* book will teach you something new.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, we recognize that not everyone can or would like to browse a library, and therefore have created a list of both online and offline resources. This list is by no means exhaustive: its purpose is merely to introduce the reader to a variety of sources about mythology. *Please do not be frightened by the amount of sources listed below: just choose a book or website that looks interesting and read it.* These books and websites are all interesting, so don't worry about choosing the &quot;wrong&quot; one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note to the reader: online sources have an *online* marker next to them. Offline sources link to the corresponding page on [worldcat.org][2], which will tell you whether the book is located in a library near you.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# General Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Collections of myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Creation Stories from around the World][3] -- *online* collection of creation myths from various cultures.&#xD;&#xA;2. [Sacred-Texts.com][4] -- an *online* database of translated myths and other sacred texts.&#xD;&#xA;3. [World Mythology][5]&#xD;&#xA;4. [Oxford Companion to World Mythology][6]&#xD;&#xA;5. [Handbook of World Mythology][7] &#xD;&#xA;6. [Gods, Heroes, and Monsters: A Sourcebook of Greek, Roman, and Near Eastern Myths in Translation][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Mythical Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Encyclopedia Mythica][9] -- an *online* encyclopedia about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Easier Texts&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For younger readers and those who’d like a more lively presentation before tackling the originals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [D’Aulaires’ Book of Greek Myths][10]: illustrated, readable, and blunt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. [D’Aulaires’ Book of Norse Myths][11]: illustrated, readable, and blunt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. [The Greek Gods][12], by Evslin, Evslin, and Hoopes. Not a long book but easy to read, and the one which got me hooked on mythology in elementary school.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. [The Adventures of Ulysses][13], Bernard Evslin: a highly readable and entertaining version of *The Odyssey.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Norse Myths][14], Kevin Crossley-Holland, a readable and clear collection of some of the more important Norse myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I recommend anything by the D’Aulaires and the Evslins in general.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Mesopotamian Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. An online translation of [The Epic of Gilgamesh][15]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Sumerian Mythology: A Study of Spiritual and Literary Achievement in the Third Millennium B.C.][16]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. [The Electronic Corpus of Sumerian Literature: Narrative Works][17]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Greek Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Homer's [Iliad](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Ilhome.htm) and [Odyssey](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Odhome.htm)&#xD;&#xA;2. Hesiod's [Theogony](http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm) -- an *online* translation of the Greek creation myth.&#xD;&#xA;3. [Homeric Hymns](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HomericHymns1.html)&#xD;&#xA;4. Pindar's [Victory Odes](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0162%3Abook%3DO)&#xD;&#xA;5. Apollonius of Rhodes' [Argonautica](http://www.theoi.com/Text/ApolloniusRhodius1.html)&#xD;&#xA;6. Pseudo-Apollodorus' [Bibliotecha](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus1.html)&#xD;&#xA;3. Ovid's &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.worldcat.org/title/metamorphoses-of-ovid/oclc/17197438&quot;&gt;Metamorphoses&lt;/a&gt;, plus a downloadable version &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.poetryintranslation.com/klineasovid.htm&quot;&gt;here.&lt;/a&gt; A loosely-structured &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphoses&quot;&gt;narrative poem&lt;/a&gt; covering many of the classic Greek myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias and Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Timothy Gantz, *Early Greek Myth*&#xD;&#xA;1. [Theoi][18] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Greek gods, creatures, and myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Celtic Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Four Branches of the Mabinogi][19]: an *online* translation of a classic collection of [tag:welsh] myths.&#xD;&#xA;2. [CELT][20]-- a fantastic *online* database of [tag:irish] literature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Celtic Heritage][21]&#xD;&#xA;2. [The Camelot Project][22] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Arthurian myth and legend.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Norse Mythology &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Norse Mythology for Smart People][23] -- an *online* encyclopedia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Mesoamerican / Central American&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Flayed God][24]&#xD;&#xA;2. The Popol Vuh: translations exist online: you can choose between a [literal translation][25] and a [less literal translation][26].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Miscellaneous Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Blogs about Mythology***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Mythology Matters][27] -- an *online* blog about mythology written by one of our own contributors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The New York Public Library's Recommended Mythology Links][28] -- an *online* collection of high-quality websites about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Interesting Articles***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The autobiography of John (William) Bierhorst][29] -- a short *online* autobiography of a man who translates native american myths for a living. It's a shortish and easy read.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.worldcat.org/libraries&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.worldcat.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/CS/CSIndex.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/world-mythology/oclc/27678612&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/oxford-companion-to-world-mythology/oclc/60492027&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/handbook-of-world-mythology/oclc/61151643&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/gods-heroes-and-monsters-a-sourcebook-of-greek-roman-and-near-eastern-myths-in-translation/oclc/842323102&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.pantheon.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/daulaires-book-of-greek-myths/oclc/779214769&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/daulaires-book-of-norse-myths/oclc/57311921&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/greek-gods/oclc/23595215&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/adventures-of-ulysses/oclc/22418476&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/norse-myths/oclc/6223744&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://web.archive.org/web/20150906105733/http://www.cidmod.org/sidurisadvice/Gilgamesh.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/sumerian-mythology-a-study-of-spiritual-and-literary-achievement-in-the-third-millennium-bc/oclc/322805&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=c.1*#&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: http://www.theoi.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: http://mabinogi.net/translations.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: http://www.ucc.ie/celt/&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/celtic-heritage-ancient-tradition-in-ireland-and-wales/oclc/53330832&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: http://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot-project&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: http://norse-mythology.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/flayed-god-the-mesoamerican-mythological-tradition-sacred-texts-and-images-from-pre-columbian-mexico-and-central-america/oclc/183418728?referer=di&amp;ht=edition&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: http://www.mesoweb.com/publications/Christenson/PV-Literal.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: http://www.mesoweb.com/publications/Christenson/PopolVuh.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [27]: https://mythologymatters.wordpress.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [28]: http://www.nypl.org/weblinks/1279&#xD;&#xA;  [29]: http://biography.jrank.org/pages/224/Bierhorst-John-William-1936.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5536" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1254" RevisionGUID="20ff0a0a-526a-4438-b604-3b79e88e1675" CreationDate="2015-12-20T18:37:25.103" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="*This question was [originally asked][1] in [reddit's mythology subreddit][2]. It hasn't received an answer yet. If we could answer it before reddit can, that would be pretty cool.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Tablet X of [The Epic of Gilgamesh][3], Gilgamesh smashes the stone men that crew Ur-shanabi's boat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They  took  fright, the Stone [Ones,  who  crewed] the  boat,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; who  were  not  [harmed  by  the Waters]  of  Death  .  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; . . . . . . . . . the wide ocean,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; at  the waters  ...  he stayed [not his hand]:  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; he smashed [them in his fury, he  threw  them] in the river.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This ends up being a mistake, because the stone men are necessary to sail the boat:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Said Ur-shanabi  to  him,  to  Gilgamesh:  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'Your  own  hands, O Gilgamesh, have prevented  [your  crossing:]  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; you smashed the Stone Ones,  threw  [them in  the  river,]  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Stone Ones are smashed,  and  the  pine  is  not  [stripped.]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why does Gilgamesh smash the stone men in the first place? Is there some sort of symbolism or meaning associated with this act?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://redd.it/3xji8p&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.reddit.com/r/mythology/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://web.archive.org/web/20150906105733/http://www.cidmod.org/sidurisadvice/Gilgamesh.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5537" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1254" RevisionGUID="20ff0a0a-526a-4438-b604-3b79e88e1675" CreationDate="2015-12-20T18:37:25.103" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="Why does Gilgamesh kill Urshanabi's stone men?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5538" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1254" RevisionGUID="20ff0a0a-526a-4438-b604-3b79e88e1675" CreationDate="2015-12-20T18:37:25.103" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="|gilgamesh|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5539" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1255" RevisionGUID="e1a23c77-4c32-49bd-98f1-b6c3b962af63" CreationDate="2015-12-21T02:18:18.310" UserId="967" Text="As I was researching Isles of the Blest, I came across something very confusing. According to [maicar][1]...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Rather, after three lifetimes, the souls of the good are conveyed to the Island of the Blest, ruled by Cronos and Rhea:&#xD;&#xA;    &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;With these wreaths and garlands of flowers they entwine their hands according to the righteous counsels of Rhadamanthys, whom the great father, the husband of Rhea whose throne is above all others, keeps close beside him as his partner.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It wouldn't make sense for the Titan lord who tried to destroy the gods to rule over &#xD;&#xA;&gt;...an easy existence:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;But having the sun always in equal nights and equal days, the good receive a life free from toil, not scraping with the strength of their arms the earth, nor the water of the sea, for the sake of a poor sustenance. But in the presence of the honored gods, those who gladly kept their oaths enjoy a life without tears, while the others undergo a toil that is unbearable to look at.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can someone explain why Cronos would rule over that place? He's dead right?&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.maicar.com/GML/IslesBlest.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5540" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1255" RevisionGUID="e1a23c77-4c32-49bd-98f1-b6c3b962af63" CreationDate="2015-12-21T02:18:18.310" UserId="967" Text="Isles of the Blest= Cronos and Rhea?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5541" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1255" RevisionGUID="e1a23c77-4c32-49bd-98f1-b6c3b962af63" CreationDate="2015-12-21T02:18:18.310" UserId="967" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5542" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1255" RevisionGUID="d0238106-b736-489f-b6a7-a9f0fbdab62f" CreationDate="2015-12-21T07:19:10.223" UserId="108" Comment="edited title" Text="Were the Isles of the Blest ruled over by Cronos and Rhea?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5544" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1256" RevisionGUID="109b50a1-61bb-4004-9006-1cffb268257d" CreationDate="2015-12-21T17:28:25.850" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="Cronos isn't dead; he's imprisoned. Later ([Theoi describes it][1] as &quot;Many human generations later&quot;), Zeus frees Cronos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The very webpage you link to explains it][2] (by quoting from Hesiod's works and days):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; And they live untouched by sorrow in the islands of the blessed along the shore of deep-swirling Ocean, happy heroes for whom the grain-giving earth bears honey-sweet fruit flourishing thrice a year, far from the deathless gods, and Cronos rules over them; **for the father of men and gods released him from his bonds.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of course, it's important to realize that not every account by ancient authors describes Cronos being set free, but enough do that we now include the story in our modern portrayal of Cronos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanKronos.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.maicar.com/GML/IslesBlest.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5545" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1257" RevisionGUID="f6d51735-1059-4813-9c52-37910344c0ec" CreationDate="2015-12-22T00:28:45.610" UserId="967" Text="According to [Wikipedia][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It was from [Arima], apparently, as Apollodorus tells us, that Echidna used to &quot;carry off passers-by&quot;.[36]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And also&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Hesiod locates Echidna's cave in Arima (εἰν Ἀρίμοισιν). Presumably this is the same place where, in Homer's Iliad, Zeus lashes, with his thunderbolts, the land about Echidna's mate Typhon, described as the land of the Arimoi (εἰν Ἀρίμοις), &quot;where men say is the couch [bed] of Typhoeus&quot;, Typhoeus being another name for Typhon&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Arima was where Typhon lived. So she was probably was wandering off where her husband lived, killing off anyone in her sight.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echidna_(mythology)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5550" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1133" RevisionGUID="336acdc5-e7e7-46b9-ae24-6d0298165021" CreationDate="2015-12-22T03:16:21.980" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 232 characters in body" Text="Welcome to the site, and welcome to the interesting world of mythology! Here are some resources for you to get started with.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By far the easiest way to learn more about mythology is to go to [your local library][1] and borrow one of their books about mythology. Don't worry about selecting the &quot;right&quot; source; just select a book that looks interesting to you. Remember, you are a beginner, therefore you don't know anything about mythology, and therefore *any* book will teach you something new.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, we recognize that not everyone can or would like to browse a library, and therefore have created a list of both online and offline resources. This list is by no means exhaustive: its purpose is merely to introduce the reader to a variety of sources about mythology. *Please do not be frightened by the amount of sources listed below: just choose a book or website that looks interesting and read it.* These books and websites are all interesting, so don't worry about choosing the &quot;wrong&quot; one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note to the reader: online sources have an *online* marker next to them. Offline sources link to the corresponding page on [worldcat.org][2], which will tell you whether the book is located in a library near you.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# General Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Collections of myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Creation Stories from around the World][3] -- *online* collection of creation myths from various cultures.&#xD;&#xA;2. [Sacred-Texts.com][4] -- an *online* database of translated myths and other sacred texts.&#xD;&#xA;3. [World Mythology][5]&#xD;&#xA;4. [Oxford Companion to World Mythology][6]&#xD;&#xA;5. [Handbook of World Mythology][7] &#xD;&#xA;6. [Gods, Heroes, and Monsters: A Sourcebook of Greek, Roman, and Near Eastern Myths in Translation][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Mythical Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Encyclopedia Mythica][9] -- an *online* encyclopedia about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Easier Texts&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For younger readers and those who’d like a more lively presentation before tackling the originals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [D’Aulaires’ Book of Greek Myths][10]: illustrated, readable, and blunt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. [D’Aulaires’ Book of Norse Myths][11]: illustrated, readable, and blunt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. [The Greek Gods][12], by Evslin, Evslin, and Hoopes. Not a long book but easy to read, and the one which got me hooked on mythology in elementary school.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. [The Adventures of Ulysses][13], Bernard Evslin: a highly readable and entertaining version of *The Odyssey.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Norse Myths][14], Kevin Crossley-Holland, a readable and clear collection of some of the more important Norse myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I recommend anything by the D’Aulaires and the Evslins in general.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Mesopotamian Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. An online translation of [The Epic of Gilgamesh][15]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Sumerian Mythology: A Study of Spiritual and Literary Achievement in the Third Millennium B.C.][16]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. [The Electronic Corpus of Sumerian Literature: Narrative Works][17]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Greek Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Homer's [Iliad](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Ilhome.htm) and [Odyssey](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Odhome.htm)&#xD;&#xA;2. Hesiod's [Theogony](http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm) -- an *online* translation of the Greek creation myth.&#xD;&#xA;3. [Homeric Hymns](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HomericHymns1.html)&#xD;&#xA;4. Pindar's [Victory Odes](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0162%3Abook%3DO)&#xD;&#xA;5. Apollonius of Rhodes' [Argonautica](http://www.theoi.com/Text/ApolloniusRhodius1.html)&#xD;&#xA;6. Pseudo-Apollodorus' [Bibliotecha](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus1.html)&#xD;&#xA;3. Ovid's &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.worldcat.org/title/metamorphoses-of-ovid/oclc/17197438&quot;&gt;Metamorphoses&lt;/a&gt;, plus a downloadable version &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.poetryintranslation.com/klineasovid.htm&quot;&gt;here.&lt;/a&gt; A loosely-structured &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphoses&quot;&gt;narrative poem&lt;/a&gt; covering many of the classic Greek myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias and Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Timothy Gantz, *Early Greek Myth*&#xD;&#xA;1. [Theoi][18] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Greek gods, creatures, and myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Celtic Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Four Branches of the Mabinogi][19]: an *online* translation of a classic collection of [tag:welsh] myths.&#xD;&#xA;2. [CELT][20]-- a fantastic *online* database of [tag:irish] literature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Celtic Heritage][21]&#xD;&#xA;2. [The Camelot Project][22] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Arthurian myth and legend.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Norse Mythology &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Norse Mythology for Smart People][23] -- an *online* encyclopedia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Mesoamerican / Central American&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Flayed God][24]&#xD;&#xA;2. The Popol Vuh: translations exist online: you can choose between a [literal translation][25] and a [less literal translation][26].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Mythological Theory (i.e. something other than Joseph Campbell)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Sacred narrative, readings in the theory of myth][27]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Miscellaneous Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Blogs about Mythology***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Mythology Matters][28] -- an *online* blog about mythology written by one of our own contributors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The New York Public Library's Recommended Mythology Links][29] -- an *online* collection of high-quality websites about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Interesting Articles***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The autobiography of John (William) Bierhorst][30] -- a short *online* autobiography of a man who translates native american myths for a living. It's a shortish and easy read.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.worldcat.org/libraries&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.worldcat.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/CS/CSIndex.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/world-mythology/oclc/27678612&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/oxford-companion-to-world-mythology/oclc/60492027&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/handbook-of-world-mythology/oclc/61151643&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/gods-heroes-and-monsters-a-sourcebook-of-greek-roman-and-near-eastern-myths-in-translation/oclc/842323102&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.pantheon.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/daulaires-book-of-greek-myths/oclc/779214769&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/daulaires-book-of-norse-myths/oclc/57311921&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/greek-gods/oclc/23595215&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/adventures-of-ulysses/oclc/22418476&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/norse-myths/oclc/6223744&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://web.archive.org/web/20150906105733/http://www.cidmod.org/sidurisadvice/Gilgamesh.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/sumerian-mythology-a-study-of-spiritual-and-literary-achievement-in-the-third-millennium-bc/oclc/322805&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=c.1*#&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: http://www.theoi.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: http://mabinogi.net/translations.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: http://www.ucc.ie/celt/&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/celtic-heritage-ancient-tradition-in-ireland-and-wales/oclc/53330832&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: http://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot-project&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: http://norse-mythology.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/flayed-god-the-mesoamerican-mythological-tradition-sacred-texts-and-images-from-pre-columbian-mexico-and-central-america/oclc/183418728?referer=di&amp;ht=edition&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: http://www.mesoweb.com/publications/Christenson/PV-Literal.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: http://www.mesoweb.com/publications/Christenson/PopolVuh.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [27]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/sacred-narrative-readings-in-the-theory-of-myth/oclc/9944508&#xD;&#xA;  [28]: https://mythologymatters.wordpress.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [29]: http://www.nypl.org/weblinks/1279&#xD;&#xA;  [30]: http://biography.jrank.org/pages/224/Bierhorst-John-William-1936.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5553" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1258" RevisionGUID="5cebb6c6-1769-4c13-bc76-5544dc144b12" CreationDate="2015-12-23T00:36:49.917" UserId="183" Text="In [this answer](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/1256/183), Hamlet quotes [this page](http://www.maicar.com/GML/IslesBlest.html):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and Cronos rules over them; for the father of men and gods released him from his bonds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is safe to assume that the &quot;father of men and gods&quot; is Zeus, as he was the king of the gods of Olympus. However, it seems strange that Cronos would be released, given the crimes he committed and his overthrow in the Titanomachy. Additionally, other Titans were punished, but it doesn't seem as if they were ever released.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why did Zeus release Cronos?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5554" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1258" RevisionGUID="5cebb6c6-1769-4c13-bc76-5544dc144b12" CreationDate="2015-12-23T00:36:49.917" UserId="183" Text="Why did Zeus release Cronos?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5555" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1258" RevisionGUID="5cebb6c6-1769-4c13-bc76-5544dc144b12" CreationDate="2015-12-23T00:36:49.917" UserId="183" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5556" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1259" RevisionGUID="1c54def9-cf94-4d43-9d7f-7b23e55c0b09" CreationDate="2015-12-23T02:45:41.557" UserId="967" Text="[Theoi][1] says&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Many human generations later, Zeus released Kronos and his brothers from this prison, and made the old Titan king of the Elysian Islands, home of the blessed dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So that eliminates the &quot;Kronos-only theory&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But-&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kronos DID rule the &quot;Golden Age, where [maicar][2] says-&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Cronos has been celebrated for having ruled the world under the period known as the Golden Age, which is the first age of man. At this time there were no punishments, no swords, no helmets and no threatening words, and even to eat the flesh of oxen was held a crime. And being so, war was unknown and life passed in gentle ease. This was the time when spring was everlasting, and streams of milk, nectar and honey flowed in abundance. And, as unbelievable as it sounds, this was the nature of the rule held by the one who castrated his father: a time and a rule without pain, during which the earth, without compulsion, brought forth great stores of all kinds of needful things, and men lived secure never cheating or destroying each other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;AND &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Zeus released Cronos from his bonds and let him rule the Islands of the Blest, a place where the virtuous come after death, retaining their faculties and enjoying a life free of care&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So-&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kronos was capable of making a perfect humanity, something we all want, what the &quot;bad guys&quot; revolve their &quot;argument&quot; over, from the ultimate story of Kronos and the Golden age. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Irrelevant: I really don't think Kronos was a bad guy, he was lead by Gaea in her blind rage)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanKronos.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.maicar.com/GML/Cronos.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5559" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1259" RevisionGUID="771da42f-9367-439a-9bbc-3be06119d64f" CreationDate="2015-12-23T17:13:56.910" UserId="967" Comment="added 77 characters in body" Text="[Theoi][1] says&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Many human generations later, Zeus released Kronos and his brothers from this prison, and made the old Titan king of the Elysian Islands, home of the blessed dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So that eliminates the &quot;Kronos-only theory&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But-&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kronos DID rule the &quot;Golden Age, where [maicar][2] says-&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Cronos has been celebrated for having ruled the world under the period known as the Golden Age, which is the first age of man. At this time there were no punishments, no swords, no helmets and no threatening words, and even to eat the flesh of oxen was held a crime. And being so, war was unknown and life passed in gentle ease. This was the time when spring was everlasting, and streams of milk, nectar and honey flowed in abundance. And, as unbelievable as it sounds, this was the nature of the rule held by the one who castrated his father: a time and a rule without pain, during which the earth, without compulsion, brought forth great stores of all kinds of needful things, and men lived secure never cheating or destroying each other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;AND &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Zeus released Cronos from his bonds and let him rule the Islands of the Blest, a place where the virtuous come after death, retaining their faculties and enjoying a life free of care&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So-&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kronos was capable of making a perfect humanity, something we all want, what the &quot;bad guys&quot; revolve their &quot;argument&quot; over, from the ultimate story of Kronos and the Golden age. Zeus wanted a &quot;Golden Age&quot; for the Isles of the Blest. So he released Kronos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Irrelevant: I really don't think Kronos was a bad guy, he was lead by Gaea in her blind rage)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanKronos.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.maicar.com/GML/Cronos.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5560" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1133" RevisionGUID="66a03230-1b5f-4aef-a3b2-118640d99b17" CreationDate="2015-12-23T22:37:45.213" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 265 characters in body" Text="Welcome to the site, and welcome to the interesting world of mythology! Here are some resources for you to get started with.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By far the easiest way to learn more about mythology is to go to [your local library][1] and borrow one of their books about mythology. Don't worry about selecting the &quot;right&quot; source; just select a book that looks interesting to you. Remember, you are a beginner, therefore you don't know anything about mythology, and therefore *any* book will teach you something new.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, we recognize that not everyone can or would like to browse a library, and therefore have created a list of both online and offline resources. This list is by no means exhaustive: its purpose is merely to introduce the reader to a variety of sources about mythology. *Please do not be frightened by the amount of sources listed below: just choose a book or website that looks interesting and read it.* These books and websites are all interesting, so don't worry about choosing the &quot;wrong&quot; one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note to the reader: online sources have an *online* marker next to them. Offline sources link to the corresponding page on [worldcat.org][2], which will tell you whether the book is located in a library near you.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# General Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Collections of myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Creation Stories from around the World][3] -- *online* collection of creation myths from various cultures.&#xD;&#xA;2. [Sacred-Texts.com][4] -- an *online* database of translated myths and other sacred texts.&#xD;&#xA;3. [World Mythology][5]&#xD;&#xA;4. [Oxford Companion to World Mythology][6]&#xD;&#xA;5. [Handbook of World Mythology][7] &#xD;&#xA;6. [Gods, Heroes, and Monsters: A Sourcebook of Greek, Roman, and Near Eastern Myths in Translation][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Mythical Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Encyclopedia Mythica][9] -- an *online* encyclopedia about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Easier Texts&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For younger readers and those who’d like a more lively presentation before tackling the originals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [D’Aulaires’ Book of Greek Myths][10]: illustrated, readable, and blunt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. [D’Aulaires’ Book of Norse Myths][11]: illustrated, readable, and blunt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. [The Greek Gods][12], by Evslin, Evslin, and Hoopes. Not a long book but easy to read, and the one which got me hooked on mythology in elementary school.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. [The Adventures of Ulysses][13], Bernard Evslin: a highly readable and entertaining version of *The Odyssey.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Norse Myths][14], Kevin Crossley-Holland, a readable and clear collection of some of the more important Norse myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I recommend anything by the D’Aulaires and the Evslins in general.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Mesopotamian Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. An online translation of [The Epic of Gilgamesh][15]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Sumerian Mythology: A Study of Spiritual and Literary Achievement in the Third Millennium B.C.][16]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. [The Electronic Corpus of Sumerian Literature: Narrative Works][17]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Greek Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Homer's [Iliad](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Ilhome.htm) and [Odyssey](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Odhome.htm)&#xD;&#xA;2. Hesiod's [Theogony](http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm) -- an *online* translation of the Greek creation myth.&#xD;&#xA;3. [Homeric Hymns](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HomericHymns1.html)&#xD;&#xA;4. Pindar's [Victory Odes](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0162%3Abook%3DO)&#xD;&#xA;5. Apollonius of Rhodes' [Argonautica](http://www.theoi.com/Text/ApolloniusRhodius1.html)&#xD;&#xA;6. Pseudo-Apollodorus' [Bibliotecha](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus1.html)&#xD;&#xA;3. Ovid's &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.worldcat.org/title/metamorphoses-of-ovid/oclc/17197438&quot;&gt;Metamorphoses&lt;/a&gt;, plus a downloadable version &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.poetryintranslation.com/klineasovid.htm&quot;&gt;here.&lt;/a&gt; A loosely-structured &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphoses&quot;&gt;narrative poem&lt;/a&gt; covering many of the classic Greek myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias and Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Timothy Gantz, *Early Greek Myth*&#xD;&#xA;1. [Theoi][18] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Greek gods, creatures, and myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Celtic Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Four Branches of the Mabinogi][19]: an *online* translation of a classic collection of [tag:welsh] myths.&#xD;&#xA;2. [CELT][20]-- a fantastic *online* database of [tag:irish] literature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Celtic Heritage][21]&#xD;&#xA;2. [The Camelot Project][22] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Arthurian myth and legend.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Norse Mythology &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Norse Mythology for Smart People][23] -- an *online* encyclopedia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Mesoamerican / Central American&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Flayed God][24]&#xD;&#xA;2. The Popol Vuh: translations exist online: you can choose between a [literal translation][25] and a [less literal translation][26].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Mythological Theory (i.e. something other than Joseph Campbell)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Sacred narrative, readings in the theory of myth][27]&#xD;&#xA;2.  [Living Folklore, 2nd Edition: An Introduction to the Study of People and Their Traditions][28] -- an introduction to the academic discipline of folklore, available *online* from JSTOR, and offline as a book.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Miscellaneous Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Blogs about Mythology***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Mythology Matters][29] -- an *online* blog about mythology written by one of our own contributors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The New York Public Library's Recommended Mythology Links][30] -- an *online* collection of high-quality websites about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Interesting Articles***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The autobiography of John (William) Bierhorst][31] -- a short *online* autobiography of a man who translates native american myths for a living. It's a shortish and easy read.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.worldcat.org/libraries&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.worldcat.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/CS/CSIndex.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/world-mythology/oclc/27678612&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/oxford-companion-to-world-mythology/oclc/60492027&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/handbook-of-world-mythology/oclc/61151643&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/gods-heroes-and-monsters-a-sourcebook-of-greek-roman-and-near-eastern-myths-in-translation/oclc/842323102&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.pantheon.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/daulaires-book-of-greek-myths/oclc/779214769&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/daulaires-book-of-norse-myths/oclc/57311921&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/greek-gods/oclc/23595215&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/adventures-of-ulysses/oclc/22418476&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/norse-myths/oclc/6223744&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://web.archive.org/web/20150906105733/http://www.cidmod.org/sidurisadvice/Gilgamesh.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/sumerian-mythology-a-study-of-spiritual-and-literary-achievement-in-the-third-millennium-bc/oclc/322805&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=c.1*#&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: http://www.theoi.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: http://mabinogi.net/translations.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: http://www.ucc.ie/celt/&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/celtic-heritage-ancient-tradition-in-ireland-and-wales/oclc/53330832&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: http://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot-project&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: http://norse-mythology.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/flayed-god-the-mesoamerican-mythological-tradition-sacred-texts-and-images-from-pre-columbian-mexico-and-central-america/oclc/183418728?referer=di&amp;ht=edition&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: http://www.mesoweb.com/publications/Christenson/PV-Literal.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: http://www.mesoweb.com/publications/Christenson/PopolVuh.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [27]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/sacred-narrative-readings-in-the-theory-of-myth/oclc/9944508&#xD;&#xA;  [28]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt4cgrv6&#xD;&#xA;  [29]: https://mythologymatters.wordpress.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [30]: http://www.nypl.org/weblinks/1279&#xD;&#xA;  [31]: http://biography.jrank.org/pages/224/Bierhorst-John-William-1936.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5561" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1261" RevisionGUID="10366255-2639-43e5-8eb6-549e5e603c92" CreationDate="2015-12-23T23:16:52.043" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="Have you heard of the Thompson Motif Index? It's a huge 6 volume index of folklore from various cultures, organized by motif. [It's also available for free online.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Looking at the index, there are a lot of entries for &quot;water spirit as woman.&quot; I've listed the entires below:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; F420.1.2. †F420.1.2. **Water-spirit as woman** (water-nymph, water-nix). (Cf. †F423.1.) *Type 316; *BP III 322; *Fb “nøkke” II 725ab.--England, Ireland, Wales: Baughman, Ireland: Beal VII 11; Norse: MacCulloch Eddic 261; Finnish-Swedish: Wessman 55 Nos. 468--469; Finnish: Aarne FFC XXXIII 44 No. 58; Germanic: Meyer Germanen 199ff., 202ff., De la Saussaye 323; Slavic: Máchal 254f., 271f.; Estonian: Aarne FFC XXV 126 No. 58; Livonian: Loorits FFC LXVI 42 No. 30; Armenian: Ananikian 84; Japanese: Ikeda.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; F420.1.2.1. †F420.1.2.1. **Water-maidens are of unusual beauty**. German: Ebermann Elbsagen 115 (No. 66), Meier I 67 (No. 1); French: Sébillot France II 196, 345; Icelandic: Boberg.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there are also a lot of entries for &quot;Water-spirit as man.&quot; For example:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; F420.1.1. †F420.1.1. Water-spirit as man. Takelau (New Zealand):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Beckwith Myth 150.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; F420.1.1.1. †F420.1.1.1. Water-spirit appears as handsome man. German:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ebermann Elbsagen 93 (No. 55); French: Sébillot France II 409;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Finnish-Swedish: Wessman 57 No. 487.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; F420.1.1.2. †F420.1.1.2. Water-spirit appears as black man. German:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Knoop 89 (No. 145), Sommert 108.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; F420.1.1.3. †F420.1.1.3. Water-spirit as small gray man. Has green&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eyes and gray hair. Tobler 99.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; F420.1.1.4. †F420.1.1.4. Water-spirit as man clothed in white and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; accompanied by a dozen attendants. Chinese: Werner 182.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, there are equally as many entries for &quot;Water-spirit as animal&quot;. There are actually too many examples for me to quote in this answer, but some examples are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; F420.1.3.2. †F420.1.3.2. Water-spirit as fish. Tobler 97; Icelandic: Boberg, German: Henne-Am Rhyn 113 (No. 216), Ebermann Elbsagen 74 (No. 39); French: Sébillot France II 196.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;F420.1.3.3. †F420.1.3.3. Water-spirit as horse. England, Scotland, Ireland: Baughman; Icelandic: Boberg; Danish: Kristensen Danske Sagn (1893) 163ff., (1928) 112ff.; Norwegian: Solheim Register 17; Swedish: Hartmann 27; German: Künzig Badische 31 (No. 87), Karstens Sagen 79.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, there is also &quot;water spirit in abnormal form.&quot; Again, there are too many entries for me to list here, but a few examples are...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; F420.1.4.5. †F420.1.4.5. Water-spirits with human body and webbed feet and hands. Tobler 98; German: Henne-Am Rhyn 113, Pröhle Deutsche Sagen 153 (No. 119); French: Sébillot France II 403.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; F420.1.4.8. †F420.1.4.8. Water-spirits with green teeth. England: Baughman; German: Schöppner I 219--223, Schultze-Gallara 23; French: Sébillot France II 343 (green eyes).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**So no, I wouldn't say that there is a &quot;preponderance of seductive water nymphs in mythology.&quot;** Women might be slightly more popular, but men, animals, and &quot;abnormal forms&quot; are also significantly represented.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.ualberta.ca/~urban/Projects/English/Motif_Index.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5564" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1262" RevisionGUID="9163b12b-3d99-4af2-946d-210e95706a2f" CreationDate="2015-12-23T23:38:47.270" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="I'm currently attempting to research how often a specific type of story (i.e. a motif) occurs in the global corpus of global folklore (mythology). For instance, I might be interested in [whether there are examples of powerful figures loosing an eye (other than Odin)][1]. I might also be interested in [whether deities similar to Kali exist in other cultures][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How can I answer these kinds of questions? I obviously don't have time to go read every bit of folklore from every culture in the world. Is there some sort of index, e.g. a [TVTropes][3] for folklore, that I could use?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/853/are-there-any-other-gods-that-permanently-lost-an-eye-other-than-odin&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/962/62&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://tvtropes.org/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5565" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1262" RevisionGUID="9163b12b-3d99-4af2-946d-210e95706a2f" CreationDate="2015-12-23T23:38:47.270" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="How to search for patterns/motifs in folklore or mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5566" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1262" RevisionGUID="9163b12b-3d99-4af2-946d-210e95706a2f" CreationDate="2015-12-23T23:38:47.270" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="|comparative|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5567" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1263" RevisionGUID="5c0f7ce5-a016-4d36-88f8-8f43c4566be9" CreationDate="2015-12-23T23:38:47.270" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="Have you heard of the Thompson Motif Index? It's essentially a TVTropes for folklore, i.e. a list of folklore organized by motifs. **Most importantly, [it's available for free online][1].**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[I will write a guide for how to use the Thompson Motif Index later tonight.]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.ualberta.ca/~urban/Projects/English/Motif_Index.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5568" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1263" RevisionGUID="da3cf33c-c162-4f95-a81f-9b95551c3551" CreationDate="2015-12-24T00:42:08.877" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 555 characters in body" Text="Have you heard of the Thompson Motif Index? It's essentially a TVTropes for folklore, i.e. a list of folklore organized by motifs. **Most importantly, [it's available for free online][1].**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The index can be hard to use, but fortunately, [there is an online guide][2]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are [other myth indexes available][3], obviously, various scholars have taken issue with various elements of the index. One issue that might be relevant is that we should not assume that the Thompson Index does not list every instance of a motif (it was published in the 1960s). However, it should be *good enough* for the purposes of the majority of the visitors to this site.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.ualberta.ca/~urban/Projects/English/Motif_Index.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.ualberta.ca/~urban/Projects/English/Content/Motif_Help.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aarne%E2%80%93Thompson_classification_systems&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5569" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1263" RevisionGUID="12585818-3652-4026-adfd-591cf20f4511" CreationDate="2015-12-24T00:49:56.210" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 555 characters in body" Text="Have you heard of the Thompson Motif Index? It's essentially a TVTropes for folklore, i.e. a list of folklore organized by motifs. **Most importantly, [it's available for free online][1].** If you're skeptical, here's a screenshot of the information the index can provide:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![use the index; it's great][2]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The index can be hard to use, but fortunately, [there is an online guide][3]. My advice is to use your browser's find function (press &lt;kbd&gt;ctrl-f&lt;/kbd&gt;) liberally.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are [other myth indexes available][4], obviously, various scholars have taken issue with various elements of the index. One issue that might be relevant is that we should not assume that the Thompson Index does not list every instance of a motif (it was published in the 1960s). However, it should be *good enough* for the purposes of the majority of the visitors to this site.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.ualberta.ca/~urban/Projects/English/Motif_Index.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/fh6Ip.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.ualberta.ca/~urban/Projects/English/Content/Motif_Help.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aarne%E2%80%93Thompson_classification_systems" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5570" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1262" RevisionGUID="680a5b75-2f56-4292-abe9-0d55cc43c5ef" CreationDate="2015-12-24T09:35:17.247" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|comparative|myth-identification|mythography|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5574" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1263" RevisionGUID="616a48b8-16cb-4803-b99e-9e0df677379d" CreationDate="2015-12-24T18:28:51.450" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="fixed link" Text="Have you heard of the Thompson Motif Index? It's essentially a TVTropes for folklore, i.e. a list of folklore organized by motifs. **Most importantly, [it's available for free online][1].** If you're skeptical, here's a screenshot of the information the index can provide:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![use the index; it's great][2]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The index can be hard to use, but fortunately, [there is an online guide][3]. My advice is to use your browser's find function (press &lt;kbd&gt;ctrl-f&lt;/kbd&gt;) liberally.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One issue that might be relevant is that we should not assume that the Thompson Index does not list every instance of a motif (it was published in the 1960s). However, it should be *good enough* for the purposes of the majority of the visitors to this site.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are [other myth indexes available][4] that focus on specific regions and/or are more up to date. As far as I can tell, those indexes aren't available online, so you will have to look for them in a library. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.ualberta.ca/~urban/Projects/English/Motif_Index.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/fh6Ip.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.ualberta.ca/~urban/Projects/English/Content/Motif_Help.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motif_%28folkloristics%29#Other_motif_indices" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5575" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1262" RevisionGUID="5ea780f0-23b0-4da9-a330-8f7694ca7cb8" CreationDate="2015-12-24T18:29:57.157" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="deleted 7 characters in body" Text="I'm currently attempting to research how often a specific type of story (i.e. a motif) occurs in the global corpus of folklore (mythology). For instance, I might be interested in [whether there are examples of powerful figures loosing an eye (other than Odin)][1]. I might also be interested in [whether deities similar to Kali exist in other cultures][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How can I answer these kinds of questions? I obviously don't have time to go read every bit of folklore from every culture in the world. Is there some sort of index, e.g. a [TVTropes][3] for folklore, that I could use?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/853/are-there-any-other-gods-that-permanently-lost-an-eye-other-than-odin&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/962/62&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://tvtropes.org/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5577" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1254" RevisionGUID="fa16a87a-2c88-4c9b-ad19-ca216a662664" CreationDate="2015-12-25T20:16:30.560" UserId="57" Comment="added 8 characters in body" Text="In Tablet X of [The Epic of Gilgamesh][3], Gilgamesh smashes the stone men that crew Ur-shanabi's boat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They  took  fright, the Stone [Ones,  who  crewed] the  boat,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; who  were  not  [harmed  by  the Waters]  of  Death  .  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; . . . . . . . . . the wide ocean,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; at  the waters  ...  he stayed [not his hand]:  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; he smashed [them in his fury, he  threw  them] in the river.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This ends up being a mistake, because the stone men are necessary to sail the boat:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Said Ur-shanabi  to  him,  to  Gilgamesh:  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'Your  own  hands, O Gilgamesh, have prevented  [your  crossing:]  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; you smashed the Stone Ones,  threw  [them in  the  river,]  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Stone Ones are smashed,  and  the  pine  is  not  [stripped.]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why does Gilgamesh smash the stone men in the first place? Is there some sort of symbolism or meaning associated with this act?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://redd.it/3xji8p&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.reddit.com/r/mythology/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://web.archive.org/web/20150906105733/http://www.cidmod.org/sidurisadvice/Gilgamesh.pdf&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--- &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*This question was [originally asked][1] in [reddit's mythology subreddit][2]. It hasn't received an answer yet. If we could answer it before reddit can, that would be pretty cool.*" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5581" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1265" RevisionGUID="91bb7bb7-8d61-4102-b4a7-00d220c9b534" CreationDate="2015-12-26T13:01:18.680" UserId="57" Text="In Tablet I of the The Epic of Gilgamesh, Seven Sages are said to have laid the foundations of Uruk: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Climb Uruk's wall and walk back and forth!  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Survey its foundations, examine the brickwork!  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Were its bricks not fired in an oven?  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Did the Seven Sages not lay its foundations? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Epic of Gilgamesh, translated by Andrew George, Penguin Books&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who were they?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5582" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1265" RevisionGUID="91bb7bb7-8d61-4102-b4a7-00d220c9b534" CreationDate="2015-12-26T13:01:18.680" UserId="57" Text="Who were the Seven Sages who laid the foundations of Uruk?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5583" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1265" RevisionGUID="91bb7bb7-8d61-4102-b4a7-00d220c9b534" CreationDate="2015-12-26T13:01:18.680" UserId="57" Text="|gilgamesh|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5584" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1263" RevisionGUID="75033104-1c09-43f6-9c32-7ddbfea80d21" CreationDate="2015-12-26T17:39:57.970" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 324 characters in body" Text="Have you heard of the Thompson Motif Index? It's essentially a TVTropes for folklore, i.e. a list of folklore organized by motifs. **Most importantly, [it's available for free online][1].** If you're skeptical, here's a screenshot of the information the index can provide:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![use the index; it's great][2]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The index can be hard to use, but fortunately, [there is an online guide][3]. My advice is to use your browser's find function (press &lt;kbd&gt;ctrl-f&lt;/kbd&gt;) liberally.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I just found a version of the Thompson Motif Index that might be easier to use: it lets you filter through the motif index using a search tool. It's called [Storysearch][4], and it looks like this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Storysearch Screenshot][5]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One issue that might be relevant is that we should not assume that the Thompson Index does not list every instance of a motif (it was published in the 1960s). However, it should be *good enough* for the purposes of the majority of the visitors to this site.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are [other myth indexes available][6] that focus on specific regions and/or are more up to date. As far as I can tell, those indexes aren't available online, so you will have to look for them in a library. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.ualberta.ca/~urban/Projects/English/Motif_Index.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/fh6Ip.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.ualberta.ca/~urban/Projects/English/Content/Motif_Help.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://storyseeds.org/storysearch/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/07GEE.png&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motif_%28folkloristics%29#Other_motif_indices" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5585" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1263" RevisionGUID="47c9cd17-c21e-4b6f-9538-6d7498e0152f" CreationDate="2015-12-26T17:48:08.920" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 324 characters in body" Text="Have you heard of the Thompson Motif Index? It's essentially a TVTropes for folklore, i.e. a list of folklore organized by motifs. **Most importantly, it's available for free online.** There are two online versions available: a [difficult to use plain-text tool][1] and [a database version, titled MOMFER, that is easy and convenient to use][2]. Here's a screenshot of MOMFER (which I recommend that you use: it's so much more convenient) in case you are skeptical:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![MOMFER Screenshot][3]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One issue that might be relevant is that we should not assume that the Thompson Index does not list every instance of a motif (it was published in the 1960s). However, it should be *good enough* for the purposes of the majority of the visitors to this site.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are [other myth indexes available][4] that focus on specific regions and/or are more up to date. As far as I can tell, those indexes aren't available online, so you will have to look for them in a library. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.ualberta.ca/~urban/Projects/English/Motif_Index.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.momfer.ml/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/o0xas.png&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motif_%28folkloristics%29#Other_motif_indices" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5586" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1263" RevisionGUID="e7358163-ba14-4511-886f-6de19579ab17" CreationDate="2015-12-26T17:54:17.223" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 324 characters in body" Text="Have you heard of the Thompson Motif Index? It's essentially a TVTropes for folklore, i.e. a list of folklore organized by motifs. **Most importantly, it's available for free online.** There are two online versions available: a [difficult to use plain-text tool][1] and [a database version, titled MOMFER, that is easy and convenient to use][2]. Here's a screenshot of MOMFER (which I recommend that you use: it's so much more convenient) in case you are skeptical:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![MOMFER Screenshot][3]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In case you are interested: [the code for MOMFER is available on github][4] and [the creators of MOMFER have written a paper about developing the tool][5] (unfortunately behind a paywall).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One issue that might be relevant is that we should not assume that the Thompson Index does not list every instance of a motif (it was published in the 1960s). However, it should be *good enough* for the purposes of the majority of the visitors to this site.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are [other myth indexes available][6] that focus on specific regions and/or are more up to date. As far as I can tell, those indexes aren't available online, so you will have to look for them in a library. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.ualberta.ca/~urban/Projects/English/Motif_Index.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.momfer.ml/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/o0xas.png&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://github.com/fbkarsdorp/tmi&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0015587X.2015.1006954&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motif_%28folkloristics%29#Other_motif_indices" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5588" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="431" RevisionGUID="84ba0868-b5f5-49f6-92ba-56be78abc3f0" CreationDate="2015-12-26T20:32:54.467" UserId="51" Comment="Improving post a bit." Text="The 12 is a holy number, because, according to Sitchin interpretation of Sumerian mythology, this is how gods grouped the stars in each sky segment into constellations (known as the twelve zodiac constellations) and named them after their own leaders ([The Pantheon of Twelve][1], e.g. [Taurus][2], etc.).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; To them (gods) this number, twelve, was a basic number to be applied in all celestial matters affecting the Bond Heaven-Earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [...] they grouped the stars in each sky segment into constellations. &lt;sup&gt;[p.49][3]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/206/51&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/182/51&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://ia701206.us.archive.org/20/items/CompleteWorksportugusEnglish/ZechariaSitchin-TheCosmicCode.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5589" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1266" RevisionGUID="8d63533d-a568-4b94-a997-3c6b1868fe25" CreationDate="2015-12-27T01:09:52.550" UserId="57" Text="In Tablet IV of the Epic of Gilgamesh, Gilgamesh and Enkidu fight the monstrous Humbaba. After the fight is over the defeated Humbada pleads for his life, unsuccessfully: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'Now, Enkidu, [my] release lies with you:  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; tell Gilgamesh to spare me my life!' &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Enkidu opened his mouth to speak,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; saying to Gilgamesh:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'My friend, Humbaba who guards the Forest of [Cedar]  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; finish him, slay him, do away with his power!  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Humbaba who guards the Forest [of Cedar]  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; finish him, slay him, do away with his power,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; before Enlil the foremost hears what we do!  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The [great] gods will take against us in anger,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Enlil in Nippur, Shamash in [Larsa] ... ,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Establish for ever [a fame] that endures,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; how Gilgamesh [slew ferocious] Humbaba!'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Epic of Gilgamesh, translated by Andrew George, Penguin Books&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why do the two heroes risk the wrath of Enlil, a deity far superior to their protector Shamash? Gilgamesh had already added to his fame by defeating Humbada, why was slaining him necessary? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5590" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1266" RevisionGUID="8d63533d-a568-4b94-a997-3c6b1868fe25" CreationDate="2015-12-27T01:09:52.550" UserId="57" Text="Why did Humbaba have to die?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5591" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1266" RevisionGUID="8d63533d-a568-4b94-a997-3c6b1868fe25" CreationDate="2015-12-27T01:09:52.550" UserId="57" Text="|gilgamesh|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5592" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1267" RevisionGUID="bb8b9298-2cd5-479c-9846-d00115204155" CreationDate="2015-12-27T15:06:09.473" UserId="183" Text="The Seven Sages are the [Apkallu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apkallu).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [*Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible*](https://books.google.co.in/books?id=yCkRz5pfxz0C&amp;pg=PA73&amp;dq=apkallu&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjH--CbpvzJAhWKOiYKHZfJDFQQ6AEIIzAB#v=onepage&amp;q=apkallu&amp;f=false) states that they were servants of Ea, responsible for teaching mankind how to govern and start civilization. They interacted with the ancient kings&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;, and Gilgamesh is referred to in one &quot;cylinder&quot; as &quot;master of the Apkallu&quot;. Additionally,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the seven Apkallu became associated with laying the foundations of the seven ancient cities: Eridu, Ur, Nippur, Kullab, Kesh, Lagash, and Shuruppak.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The entry then confirms that the Apkallu are the Seven Sages mentioned in *The Epic of Gilgamesh*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[*The Assyrian Sacred Tree: A History of Interpretations*](https://books.google.co.in/books?id=f-KDbQ_Ic5oC&amp;pg=PA140&amp;dq=apkallu&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjH--CbpvzJAhWKOiYKHZfJDFQQ6AEITzAJ#v=onepage&amp;q=apkallu&amp;f=false) states that certain depictions of the Apkallu show them having the heads of birds, as well as having wings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1 [Another book](https://books.google.co.in/books?id=g5MGVP6gAPkC&amp;pg=PA64&amp;dq=apkallu&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjH--CbpvzJAhWKOiYKHZfJDFQQ6AEIVTAK#v=onepage&amp;q=apkallu&amp;f=false) explicitly says that only one Apkallu advised each of seven ancient kings; each one advised in a different &quot;generation&quot;, although this does *not* imply that the Apkallu are related to one another as parents to children. This entire claim differs slightly from other interpretations.&lt;/sup&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5593" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="714" RevisionGUID="8d7230a0-d332-4689-9dd6-4ec6d5a53fa7" CreationDate="2015-12-27T16:54:45.813" UserId="967" Comment="grammar counts" Text="I remember reading a myth as a child, but have not been able to find it again ever since. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It starts like a typical Apollo myth: Apollo has a young best friend/lover, and they are inseparable. Then the young man's sixteenth birthday approaches (or was it some other day symbolizing the coming of age?), and Apollo wants to give him the best present a mortal has ever had. But he is neither powerful enough to grant the best, nor wise enough to know what the best is. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollo then goes to Zeus and asks him to give his friend the best present on his special day. Zeus agrees and Apollo tells his friend, both awaiting the day with happy apprehension. But then, on the birthday, the young boy is struck by lightning. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollo is very angry and demands an explanation of Zeus. The explanation: Zeus killed the boy on the happiest day of his life, before he had met the sorrow of the drudging adult routine. This was the best present a mortal could have. Apollo understands this and mourns his friend. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have forgotten the name of the boy. Upon checking, it's not one of the usual suspects (Hyacinth, Cyparis). I also don't know any more where I have read it, although it's not in the thick Kuhn edition of the Greek myths in my parents' home. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does anybody recognize the myth? Can you give me more info about the name of the boy, and a source where it is recorded?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5594" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="714" RevisionGUID="8d7230a0-d332-4689-9dd6-4ec6d5a53fa7" CreationDate="2015-12-27T16:54:45.813" Comment="Proposed by 967 approved by 183 edit id of 259" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5596" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1056" RevisionGUID="bab636fa-4b71-4887-80c0-34e0ebf69dbb" CreationDate="2015-12-27T18:16:16.773" UserId="57" Comment="added 15 characters in body; edited title; edited tags" Text="In Tablet VI of the Epic of Gilgamesh, Gilgamesh rejects Ishtar's advances after describing the harm she has caused to her previous lovers (e.g. she turned a shepard into a wolf). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have a few questions about that part of the story:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Why does Ishtar do those horrible things to her lovers?&#xD;&#xA;2. Is there a broader significance to that scene?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5597" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1056" RevisionGUID="bab636fa-4b71-4887-80c0-34e0ebf69dbb" CreationDate="2015-12-27T18:16:16.773" UserId="57" Comment="added 15 characters in body; edited title; edited tags" Text="What is the context behind Gilgamesh's rejection of Ishtar?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5598" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1056" RevisionGUID="bab636fa-4b71-4887-80c0-34e0ebf69dbb" CreationDate="2015-12-27T18:16:16.773" UserId="57" Comment="added 15 characters in body; edited title; edited tags" Text="|gilgamesh|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5599" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1056" RevisionGUID="24f16321-2018-4942-9d4d-8996989527f8" CreationDate="2015-12-27T18:32:46.627" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|gilgamesh|inanna|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5600" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1268" RevisionGUID="946a834f-0038-4796-8298-225f63f0a3bb" CreationDate="2015-12-27T19:24:12.963" UserId="183" Text="[The Welsh Triads](http://www.vortigernstudies.org.uk/artsou/triadstex.htm) lists the Three Fortunate Concealments and the Three Unfortunate Disclosures (see also https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/673/bendigeidfrans-head-was-one-of-the-three-fortunate-concealments-what-are-the-o):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Three Fortunate Concealments of the Island of Britain;**  &#xD;&#xA;The Head of Bran the Blessed, son of Llyr, which was conceiled in the White Hill in London, with its face towards France. And as long as it was in the position in which it was put there, no Saxon Oppression would ever come to this Island;  &#xD;&#xA;The second Fortunate Concealment: the Dragons in Dinas Emrys, which llud son of Beli concealed;  &#xD;&#xA;And the third: the Bones of Gwerthefyr the Blessed, in the Chief Ports of this Island. And as long as they remained in that concealment, no Saxon Oppression would ever come to this Island.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And there were the Three Unfortunate Disclosures when these were disclosed.  &#xD;&#xA;And Gwrtheyrn the Thin disclosed the bones of Gwerthefyr the Blessed form the love of a woman: that was Ronnwen the pagan woman;  &#xD;&#xA; And it was he who disclosed the Dragons;  &#xD;&#xA;And Arthur disclosed the head of Bran the Blessed from the White Hill, because it did not seem right to him that this Island should be defended by the strenght of anyone, but by his own.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is possible to give approximate dates for some of these figures (for example, Gwrtheyrn the Thin is believed to be Vortigern, and we can thus figure out roughly when he lived), but I can find no information about when specifically the Concealments and Disclosures were made.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does any text describe when each is thought to have happened? Alternatively, I'd love to find out when each Disclosure happened relative to its respective Concealments." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5601" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1268" RevisionGUID="946a834f-0038-4796-8298-225f63f0a3bb" CreationDate="2015-12-27T19:24:12.963" UserId="183" Text="When did each of the Three Fortunate Concealments and the Three Unfortunate Disclosures happen?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5602" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1268" RevisionGUID="946a834f-0038-4796-8298-225f63f0a3bb" CreationDate="2015-12-27T19:24:12.963" UserId="183" Text="|welsh|mabinogion|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5603" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1269" RevisionGUID="ac8f9f8a-0d7e-4ecf-86bb-e5f3e0a99fd2" CreationDate="2015-12-28T00:44:21.983" UserId="57" Text="In Tablet VII of the Epic of Gilgamesh, the gods Anu, Enlil, Ea and Shamash decide that Enkidu should pay with his life for the deaths of Humbaba and the Bull of Heaven: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Enkidu began to speak to Gilgamesh: 'My brother, this night what a dream [I dreamed!] The gods Anu, Enlil, Ea and celestial Shamash [held assembly], and Anu spoke unto Enlil: &quot;These, because they slew the Bull of Heaven, and slew Humbaba that [guarded] the mountains dense-[wooded] with cedar,&quot; so said Anu, &quot;between these two [let one of them die!]&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'And Enlil said: &quot;Let Enkidu die, but let not Gilgamesh die!&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'Celestial Shamash began to reply to the hero Enlil: &quot;Was it not at your word that they slew him, the Bull of Heaven and also Humbaba? Now shall innocent Enkidu die?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'Enlil was wroth at celestial Shamash: &quot;How like a comrade you&#xD;&#xA;marched with them daily!'&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Epic of Gilgamesh, translated by Andrew George, Penguin Books&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why didn't the gods kill both Gilgamesh and Enkidu? And why did Enlil pick Enkidu instead of Gilgamesh? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5604" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1269" RevisionGUID="ac8f9f8a-0d7e-4ecf-86bb-e5f3e0a99fd2" CreationDate="2015-12-28T00:44:21.983" UserId="57" Text="Why did the gods spare Gilgamesh?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5605" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1269" RevisionGUID="ac8f9f8a-0d7e-4ecf-86bb-e5f3e0a99fd2" CreationDate="2015-12-28T00:44:21.983" UserId="57" Text="|gilgamesh|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5606" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1266" RevisionGUID="538be469-1b4a-4476-bbe5-61018ca0ed66" CreationDate="2015-12-28T01:30:03.497" UserId="57" Comment="wrong tablet :/" Text="In Tablet V of the Epic of Gilgamesh, Gilgamesh and Enkidu fight the monstrous Humbaba. After the fight is over the defeated Humbada pleads for his life, unsuccessfully: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'Now, Enkidu, [my] release lies with you:  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; tell Gilgamesh to spare me my life!' &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Enkidu opened his mouth to speak,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; saying to Gilgamesh:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'My friend, Humbaba who guards the Forest of [Cedar]  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; finish him, slay him, do away with his power!  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Humbaba who guards the Forest [of Cedar]  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; finish him, slay him, do away with his power,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; before Enlil the foremost hears what we do!  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The [great] gods will take against us in anger,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Enlil in Nippur, Shamash in [Larsa] ... ,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Establish for ever [a fame] that endures,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; how Gilgamesh [slew ferocious] Humbaba!'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Epic of Gilgamesh, translated by Andrew George, Penguin Books&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why do the two heroes risk the wrath of Enlil, a deity far superior to their protector Shamash? Gilgamesh had already added to his fame by defeating Humbada, why was slaining him necessary? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5607" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1270" RevisionGUID="e3a2d337-cac9-411b-bfb0-33c8a64a157b" CreationDate="2015-12-28T13:10:27.137" UserId="235" Text="I'm ready to begin building a databased-website that will provide cataloged details about the various gods, goddesses and pantheons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm looking for the most efficient structure for cataloging them. Such as what data pieces / fields would be generic enough to be important for all deities yet not be majorly unused on the majority of the entries (and it needs to capture those deities who have different names among different cultures). I've read and own multiple books that cover this topic and they each tend to be primarily author-myopic, focusing on the mythologies / religions that the author considered most important while ignoring the countless other deities worshipped by groups of people. I also have seen (and bookmarked) multiple 'God Databases' and they, as well, seem to be stunted, and not allowing for growth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Basically, any database architecture, metadata, cataloging recommendations would be greatly valued and appreciated." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5608" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1270" RevisionGUID="e3a2d337-cac9-411b-bfb0-33c8a64a157b" CreationDate="2015-12-28T13:10:27.137" UserId="235" Text="What would be efficient data structure for cataloging deities?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5609" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1270" RevisionGUID="e3a2d337-cac9-411b-bfb0-33c8a64a157b" CreationDate="2015-12-28T13:10:27.137" UserId="235" Text="|comparative|gods|mythohistory|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5610" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1271" RevisionGUID="2a291566-64a8-4305-8fbf-bcaf7a201f70" CreationDate="2015-12-28T14:59:37.533" UserId="967" Text="Family Tree.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mythology is really just a genealogy from one god to the next generation. Then you could have some bubbles underneath them when the mouse hovers over them to tell them the information. Most people don't know who gave birth to who, or whose son/daughter a couple's are, so it is a lot easier just to have a big family tree." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5611" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1272" RevisionGUID="dbca15b1-31ae-4f0f-aab3-df6cf9393c41" CreationDate="2015-12-28T18:09:15.410" UserId="1058" Text="**I would use a [graph][1].** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Graphs (the data structure) allow **interconnections between data** in a flexible way, and given the often complex relationships depicted in various mythological traditions, I think this would fit the bill quite well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Each vertex on a graph can in itself be a container, or its own data structure, allowing you to catalog a large amount of information relating to a specific deity in a centralized fashion. Then, **the edges connect the vertices in a manner of your choosing**: by familial relationship, by historical sources, by common attribute, or any other sensible association.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**For instance:** Let's say the only information I'm interested in studying is the function of each god, relative to its culture. However, I want to determine exactly when that deity arose in its cultural history. Each vertex then represents **one deity**, including its *name*, *function*, *culture(s) of origin*, and *first known mention*. I can then associate each node by divine function, so that, for example, two deities of love will be connected. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Furthermore, since graphs are relations between sets, it's possible to establish subsets, or subgraphs, in which you group the deities by culture, allowing for multiple dimensions of analysis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Visually, graphs tend to be easy to follow, e.g: &#xD;&#xA;[![Example of a graph (graph theory)][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*(Subgraphs are usually indicated by use of a different color, or by circling the area.)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, in terms of data processing, graphs are easy to use, with many well-known algorithms for gleaning information from your data, should your list get too long to handle manually.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hopefully this can be of help. If I've missed anything, let me know.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_theory&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ENyRd.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5612" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1273" RevisionGUID="deea6026-4508-44ca-a430-ccc90cb113a0" CreationDate="2015-12-28T18:18:43.267" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="&gt; I'm ready to begin building a databased-website that will provide cataloged details about the various gods, goddesses and pantheons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cool. You should be aware that not every culture has gods and deities the same way that the Greeks had gods and deities (for example, what we refer to as the gods of the Maya were not thought of as gods by the Maya), so right off the bat, you're limiting yourself to specific cultures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  I also have seen (and bookmarked) multiple 'God Databases' and they, as well, seem to be stunted, and not allowing for growth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even accounting for the fact that not every culture has a religious structure that lends itself to a &quot;god database&quot;, I'm sure that cataloging the pantheon of even one culture takes a lot of work. [Theoi.org][1] is a website that focuses on the greek pantheon -- it's an incredibly well produced website, and I'm sure that hundreds of hours went into making it. Unless this is going to be a full time job, I don't see how your database would be any better than the majority of the other databases.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Such as what data pieces / fields would be generic enough to be important for all deities yet not be majorly unused on the majority of the entries (and it needs to capture those deities who have different names among different cultures)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You wont be able to find a &quot;field&quot; that will be applicable to every deity because different cultures have different roles for deities. I suppose the best advice I can give you is to read up about [Aarne–Thompson classification systems][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My advice to you is, if you really want to create a database of deities (and ignore other characters from mythology, which I'm not sure why you would want to), start with one culture and work your way up.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://theoi.org&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aarne%E2%80%93Thompson_classification_systems" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5613" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1270" RevisionGUID="07ef4ec1-ed24-49a0-829f-2ac698206902" CreationDate="2015-12-28T18:42:56.713" UserId="235" Comment="clarification." Text="I'm ready to begin building a databased-website that will provide cataloged details about the various gods, goddesses and pantheons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm looking for the most efficient structure for cataloging them. Such as what data pieces / fields would be generic enough to be important for all deities yet not be majorly unused on the majority of the entries (and it needs to capture those deities who have different names among different cultures). I've read and own multiple books that cover this topic and they each tend to be primarily author-myopic, focusing on the mythologies / religions that the author considered most important while ignoring the countless other deities worshipped by groups of people. I also have seen (and bookmarked) multiple 'God Databases' and they, as well, seem to be stunted, and not allowing for growth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Basically, any database architecture, metadata, cataloging recommendations would be greatly valued and appreciated.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For clarification purposes. I want to use this website / database for a set of specific purposes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Public Domain. Almost every site out there that tracks deities has these disclaimers that stop you from referencing their entries on the deities without some serious contractual agreements, others just say no. I want something that can be referenced by all, for all, and updateable by those who have a legitimate interest.&#xD;&#xA; 2. [OGP.me][1]. I would like to be able to reference a god in a tweet or facebook post and have a decent image, title, etc. display just like when you post a reference to a blog post, or instagram image. In order to do this, the structure needs to be Open Graph ready. That's part of my goal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://ogp.me/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5614" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1270" RevisionGUID="52f389c3-ecda-4fba-8868-cc9c09fc1845" CreationDate="2015-12-28T18:50:44.293" UserId="235" Comment="Additional clarification." Text="I'm ready to begin building a databased-website that will provide cataloged details about the various gods, goddesses and pantheons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm looking for the most efficient structure for cataloging them. Such as what data pieces / fields would be generic enough to be important for all deities yet not be majorly unused on the majority of the entries (and it needs to capture those deities who have different names among different cultures). I've read and own multiple books that cover this topic and they each tend to be primarily author-myopic, focusing on the mythologies / religions that the author considered most important while ignoring the countless other deities worshipped by groups of people. I also have seen (and bookmarked) multiple 'God Databases' and they, as well, seem to be stunted, and not allowing for growth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Basically, any database architecture, metadata, cataloging recommendations would be greatly valued and appreciated.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For clarification purposes. I want to use this website / database for a set of specific purposes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Public Domain. Almost every site out there that tracks deities has these disclaimers that stop you from referencing their entries on the deities without some serious contractual agreements, others just say no. I want something that can be referenced by all, for all, and updateable by those who have a legitimate interest.&#xD;&#xA; 2. [OGP.me][1]. I would like to be able to reference a god in a tweet or facebook post and have a decent image, title, etc. display just like when you post a reference to a blog post, or instagram image. In order to do this, the structure needs to be Open Graph ready. That's part of my goal.&#xD;&#xA; 3. Fields. By 'field' I am trying to convey that I am looking for metadata properties, descriptors, etc. that are generic-enough to fit for most deities (and deity-like entities). Think &quot;NAME&quot; (as an example) all mythological entities have a name. Some have hundreds. NAME would be a field I could use. DISCIPLINE would be another. Don't be locked into &quot;text field&quot; concepts. I can offer multiple choice selections. That way, when entering Dionysus I could enter under DISCIPLINE several entries such as 'grape harvest', 'winemaking', 'wine', 'ritual madness', 'fertility', 'theatre' and 'religious ecstasy'. The end desire would be to be able to search for the word 'fertility' and Dionysus (as an example) would pull up.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://ogp.me/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5615" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1274" RevisionGUID="726fdd0a-bdff-49ad-9aac-16846c745d5c" CreationDate="2015-12-29T00:40:35.320" UserId="57" Text="In Tablet XI of the Epic of Gilgamesh, Uta-napishti relays the story of the Deluge: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Said Uta-napishti to him, to Gilgamesh:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'Let me disclose, Gilgamesh, a matter most secret,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; to you will tell a mystery of gods. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'The town of Shuruppak, a city well known to you,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; which stands on the banks of the river Euphrates:  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; this city was old - the gods once were in it -  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; when the great gods decided to send down the Deluge.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Epic of Gilgamesh, translated by Andrew George, Penguin Books&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why? What cause had the gods to destroy mankind?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5616" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1274" RevisionGUID="726fdd0a-bdff-49ad-9aac-16846c745d5c" CreationDate="2015-12-29T00:40:35.320" UserId="57" Text="What caused the Deluge?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5617" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1274" RevisionGUID="726fdd0a-bdff-49ad-9aac-16846c745d5c" CreationDate="2015-12-29T00:40:35.320" UserId="57" Text="|gilgamesh|flood-myth|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5618" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1266" RevisionGUID="e6a24985-29b2-4471-8aa4-2c41b968cd92" CreationDate="2015-12-29T00:42:51.707" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|gilgamesh|humbaba|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5619" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="303" RevisionGUID="377c1162-ba58-466b-a914-32b70f96f37c" CreationDate="2015-12-29T00:42:56.863" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|sumerian|gilgamesh|humbaba|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5620" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1238" RevisionGUID="038a7bdb-73eb-49ba-890a-b101a8348b07" CreationDate="2015-12-29T01:15:32.007" UserId="57" Comment="edited body; edited title" Text="Who was the oldest being ever to have existed in Greek mythology? In other words, were there a set of beings before all of the primordial gods? Who was to have created the primordial gods? What was the beginning of everything? If this is a chicken and the egg paradox, that could be an answer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*By primordial gods I mean Gaea, Ouranos, and Pontus." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5621" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1238" RevisionGUID="038a7bdb-73eb-49ba-890a-b101a8348b07" CreationDate="2015-12-29T01:15:32.007" UserId="57" Comment="edited body; edited title" Text="Who is the oldest being in Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5622" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1275" RevisionGUID="8fb0182c-f6f6-4768-99e1-f89b9ed2deed" CreationDate="2015-12-29T01:51:23.480" UserId="292" Text="There's a discussion of this question on [Quora][1] that covers all the points I wanted to raise.&#xD;&#xA;Personally, I've always preferred the explanation that Medusa was a priestess in Athena's temple. Defiling it by having sex there would be bad enough, but with Athena's enemy? Athena was already a short-tempered goddess, so Medusa must have known she was in for trouble. Also, as the Quora discussion notes, the gods were notoriously lenient towards each other, while smiting mortals hard and often.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.quora.com/In-Greek-mythology-did-Athena-turn-Medusa-into-a-gorgon-totally-out-of-spite-and-jealousy-or-was-she-also-partially-motivated-by-a-desire-to-protect-humanity" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5623" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1232" RevisionGUID="fc971c64-b500-470b-8d48-37251d0e89de" CreationDate="2015-12-29T02:09:57.907" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 178 characters in body" Text="A third point that I feel should be mentioned in any discussion of Joseph Campbell: although Joseph Campbell is very popular with the general public, there are a number of significant flaws in his theory that haven't been addressed. [To quote from Alan Dundes, a professor of Folklore and Anthropology at the University of California, Berkeley][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; My  sole  point  in  mentioning this disheartening  incident is to  suggest that for  many  members of the literate public, the  study  of folklore means precisely Campbell and his writings. Yet professional folklorists  have said very little about the huge corpus of Campbelliana.  I do not know if  any  of his many books were ever even reviewed in JAF.  Is this a case of &quot;silence gives assent&quot;?  Very likely more people were introduced  to the  subject  matter of folklore by  the writings  of  Campbell or the PBS television series of lectures by  him than by any  other source. And yet we folklorists have said little or nothing about him and his theories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dundes makes a number of criticisms of Joseph Campbell. One of these is of his assumption that myths are universal, which, as Dundes quickly proves, is not the case. To quote from Dundes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;It has  long  been a  popular fantasy among  amateur students of  myth  that all peoples share the same stories. This is  clearly  an  example  of wishful thinking. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Examples of myths that Joseph Campbell claims to be universal but which are not are include:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. The flood myth, which is &quot;absent from sub-Saharan Africa&quot; (Dundes).&#xD;&#xA;2. The &quot;virgin-birth&quot; motif, which is only present in three separate myths, and is absent from &quot;Africa... Siberia, Polynesia, ... Melanesia, ... Australia and New  Guinea&quot; (Dundes).&#xD;&#xA;3. The &quot;belly of the whale&quot; motif: this &quot;motif&quot; is only present in the old testament (Dundes). The only other example Campbell cites of a &quot;belly of the wale&quot; motif -- the story of Red Riding Hood -- is a horrible example. Red Riding Hood is only swallowed by a wolf in the written version of the story; in the oral version of the story &quot;the  girl  is not swallowed by  the wolf at all... Instead she  escapes through  a clever ruse  by pretending to need to go  outside to defecate&quot; (Dundes).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think it would be safe to say that Joseph Campbell's arguments that the monomyth is &quot;universal&quot; aren't very sound. If you are interested in reading more, [Dundes' article is available on JSTOR][1], which you can usually access for free from a [public library][2]. Dundes has other criticisms of of Campbell, but they aren't relevant to the question asked by the OP.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I also recently wrote a [blog post about Joseph Campbell that might interest you][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/4137664&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.worldcat.org/libraries&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://medium.com/@taxicrash/joseph-campbell-is-a-fraud-966f67f99cba#.t6jxhoies" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5624" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1270" RevisionGUID="14cd770e-75e8-4ee5-8d80-4ad8501fbf7b" CreationDate="2015-12-29T10:32:25.977" UserId="108" Comment="edited title" Text="What would be an efficient data structure for cataloging deities?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5625" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="305" RevisionGUID="ddd56afd-e4a4-40f5-8aa7-48ad003c1282" CreationDate="2015-12-29T14:04:09.727" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|comparative|sumerian|mesopotamia|flood-myth|abrahamic-religions|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5626" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1276" RevisionGUID="3403f1ed-5f7c-43f3-a90c-0e8f84f14a34" CreationDate="2015-12-29T14:40:21.567" UserId="183" Text="[*The Story of Atrahasis*](http://faculty.gvsu.edu/websterm/Atrahasi.htm), which is thought to be closely related to *The Epic of Gilgamesh*, is partially lost, but enough fragments remain to figure out its meeting. Humanity annoys the gods many times with its incessant noise. The gods, spearheaded by Enlil, cast several plagues on humanity; Enki (Ea) advises Atrahasis on how to help his people through each one. The last of these is the Deluge.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[*The Epic of Ziusudra*](http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/sum/sum09.htm), also partially lost, is a very similar version of the story. Again, Enki helps one ruler survive the flood brought on by the gods in an attempt to completely wipe out mankind. It does not appear that the two kings are the same person, as both the names appear in different places on the [Sumerian King List](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_King_List)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5627" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1267" RevisionGUID="ee3e47e3-e876-4844-b710-e46315f2c642" CreationDate="2015-12-29T14:42:29.963" UserId="183" Comment="added 270 characters in body" Text="The Seven Sages are the [Apkallu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apkallu).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [*Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible*](https://books.google.co.in/books?id=yCkRz5pfxz0C&amp;pg=PA73&amp;dq=apkallu&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjH--CbpvzJAhWKOiYKHZfJDFQQ6AEIIzAB#v=onepage&amp;q=apkallu&amp;f=false) states that they were servants of Ea, responsible for teaching mankind how to govern and start civilization. They interacted with the ancient kings&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;, and Gilgamesh is referred to in one &quot;cylinder&quot; as &quot;master of the Apkallu&quot;. Additionally,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the seven Apkallu became associated with laying the foundations of the seven ancient cities: Eridu, Ur, Nippur, Kullab, Kesh, Lagash, and Shuruppak.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The entry then confirms that the Apkallu are the Seven Sages mentioned in *The Epic of Gilgamesh*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[*The Assyrian Sacred Tree: A History of Interpretations*](https://books.google.co.in/books?id=f-KDbQ_Ic5oC&amp;pg=PA140&amp;dq=apkallu&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjH--CbpvzJAhWKOiYKHZfJDFQQ6AEITzAJ#v=onepage&amp;q=apkallu&amp;f=false) states that certain depictions of the Apkallu show them having the heads of birds, as well as having wings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is possible that the reason the city of Uruk is not included in that entry is that the author of *The Epic of Gilgamesh* simple borrowed the idea of the Apkallu from other, perhaps earlier, works, and thus it is not consistent with the classical accounts of them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1 [Another book](https://books.google.co.in/books?id=g5MGVP6gAPkC&amp;pg=PA64&amp;dq=apkallu&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjH--CbpvzJAhWKOiYKHZfJDFQQ6AEIVTAK#v=onepage&amp;q=apkallu&amp;f=false) explicitly says that only one Apkallu advised each of seven ancient kings; each one advised in a different &quot;generation&quot;, although this does *not* imply that the Apkallu are related to one another as parents to children. This entire claim differs slightly from other interpretations.&lt;/sup&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5628" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1277" RevisionGUID="cac22da3-4d58-4f86-98d7-2028f018a372" CreationDate="2015-12-29T18:47:06.150" UserId="967" Text="Why were baboons famous in Egypt? They were sometimes kept as pets, had a god named for them, but did they have any significance?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5629" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1277" RevisionGUID="cac22da3-4d58-4f86-98d7-2028f018a372" CreationDate="2015-12-29T18:47:06.150" UserId="967" Text="Baboons and Egypt" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5630" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1277" RevisionGUID="cac22da3-4d58-4f86-98d7-2028f018a372" CreationDate="2015-12-29T18:47:06.150" UserId="967" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5631" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1278" RevisionGUID="e4711def-4b0a-476a-a651-66eb6708243b" CreationDate="2015-12-29T18:51:06.370" UserId="742" Text="Rabbi Solomon ibn Verga writes the following in his work Shevet Yehuda (Ch. 7):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A temple of Lucifer/Venus had a statue with a phallic device which was used to deflower virgins brought in for that purpose. The priests would then gather the blood of the girl’s broken maidenhead and knead it into dough used for baking bread. The men who ate those breads would be rendered “holy”. The girls themselves were not allowed to marry afterwards, but would instead prostitute themselves to anyone who came to the temple at high prices because they believed that any man who engaged in intercourse with them would be absolved of all his sins. The monies received from their services would be split between sustaining the girls themselves and paying the administrating priests of the temple.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the source for this legend?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5632" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1278" RevisionGUID="e4711def-4b0a-476a-a651-66eb6708243b" CreationDate="2015-12-29T18:51:06.370" UserId="742" Text="What is the source for this legend about baking virgin's blood into breads?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5633" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1278" RevisionGUID="e4711def-4b0a-476a-a651-66eb6708243b" CreationDate="2015-12-29T18:51:06.370" UserId="742" Text="|roman|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5634" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1279" RevisionGUID="f77275d8-6591-4d83-a62d-9dc5cf1d0063" CreationDate="2015-12-29T21:41:18.210" UserId="1058" Text="According to [William Petrie][1] in his book [The Religion of Ancient Egypt][2], &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;...the serious expression and human ways of the large baboons are an&#xD;&#xA;&gt; obvious cause for their being regarded as the wisest of animals&quot; (22).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He goes on to state that **Tahuti**, the deity of wisdom, personified by the baboon, existed in Egyptian culture throughout most of its early history. He mentions, too, that baboons were associated with timekeeping due to their tendency to chatter upon the sunrise, and baboons also may have been associated with calendrical timekeeping ([Dawn of Egyptian Art p. 236][3]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's well known that the ancient Egyptians were devoted observers of astronomical events and had an [early hand in timekeeping generally][4], so (personal stipulation) it makes sense for them to glorify a creature which falls into such patterns naturally.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regardless of their role, baboons almost certainly held *some* position of prominence in the culture; in addition to Tahuti and any pet-keeping, it appears [statuettes of baboons were constructed as well][5].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flinders_Petrie&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.amazon.com/Religion-Ancient-William-Flinders-Petrie/dp/1616405244&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://books.google.com/books?id=tfkvlD4Pi20C&amp;pg=PA236&amp;dq=baboon%20egypt&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwidjr_1gYLKAhVD6yYKHTFoB9oQ6AEIIjAB#v=onepage&amp;q=baboon%20egypt&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_timekeeping_devices_in_Egypt&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.maneyonline.com/doi/abs/10.1179/tav.1993.1993.1.29?journalCode=tav" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5635" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1277" RevisionGUID="90d0b4d1-a86a-46d8-bd46-4d0b1c0c7f9c" CreationDate="2015-12-30T02:19:33.520" UserId="57" Comment="edited title" Text="Why were baboons famous in Egypt?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5636" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1232" RevisionGUID="107231e8-a736-4611-abfb-cb6cdc3a55ce" CreationDate="2015-12-30T03:32:10.357" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="url changed, setting up a blog is hard" Text="A third point that I feel should be mentioned in any discussion of Joseph Campbell: although Joseph Campbell is very popular with the general public, there are a number of significant flaws in his theory that haven't been addressed. [To quote from Alan Dundes, a professor of Folklore and Anthropology at the University of California, Berkeley][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; My  sole  point  in  mentioning this disheartening  incident is to  suggest that for  many  members of the literate public, the  study  of folklore means precisely Campbell and his writings. Yet professional folklorists  have said very little about the huge corpus of Campbelliana.  I do not know if  any  of his many books were ever even reviewed in JAF.  Is this a case of &quot;silence gives assent&quot;?  Very likely more people were introduced  to the  subject  matter of folklore by  the writings  of  Campbell or the PBS television series of lectures by  him than by any  other source. And yet we folklorists have said little or nothing about him and his theories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dundes makes a number of criticisms of Joseph Campbell. One of these is of his assumption that myths are universal, which, as Dundes quickly proves, is not the case. To quote from Dundes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;It has  long  been a  popular fantasy among  amateur students of  myth  that all peoples share the same stories. This is  clearly  an  example  of wishful thinking. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Examples of myths that Joseph Campbell claims to be universal but which are not are include:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. The flood myth, which is &quot;absent from sub-Saharan Africa&quot; (Dundes).&#xD;&#xA;2. The &quot;virgin-birth&quot; motif, which is only present in three separate myths, and is absent from &quot;Africa... Siberia, Polynesia, ... Melanesia, ... Australia and New  Guinea&quot; (Dundes).&#xD;&#xA;3. The &quot;belly of the whale&quot; motif: this &quot;motif&quot; is only present in the old testament (Dundes). The only other example Campbell cites of a &quot;belly of the wale&quot; motif -- the story of Red Riding Hood -- is a horrible example. Red Riding Hood is only swallowed by a wolf in the written version of the story; in the oral version of the story &quot;the  girl  is not swallowed by  the wolf at all... Instead she  escapes through  a clever ruse  by pretending to need to go  outside to defecate&quot; (Dundes).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think it would be safe to say that Joseph Campbell's arguments that the monomyth is &quot;universal&quot; aren't very sound. If you are interested in reading more, [Dundes' article is available on JSTOR][1], which you can usually access for free from a [public library][2]. Dundes has other criticisms of of Campbell, but they aren't relevant to the question asked by the OP.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I also recently wrote a [blog post about Joseph Campbell that might interest you][3]. It elaborates on the points that I made in this post.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/4137664&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.worldcat.org/libraries&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://medium.com/@taxicrash/the-monomyth-so-incorrect-it-s-dangerous-fffea85a9640#.ailnms8e8" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5637" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="983" RevisionGUID="b3f686f4-2da6-4eec-8519-e141f705aa66" CreationDate="2015-12-30T05:11:09.520" UserId="467" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body" Text="The myths themselves are not going to give a technical explanation of this, so we are setting off on the wrong foot if we are seeking an answer at such a level, which is that of our modern technological mind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An initial observation to make is that the myth does not always include a shield, as Yannis notes in the case of Hesiod's account. We can also turn to the iconography, which likewise also does not necessarily portray a shield. See, e.g., the metope from Salinas ca. 540 B.C. (at the Museo Nazionale Archeologico in Palermo, Italy; in Morford &amp; Lenardon's *Classical Mythology* 8th ed., p. 552) and the black-figure jug by Amasis, Attic, 6th cen. BCE (in Neumann, *Consciousness* (below), illustration 25) both showing Perseus killing her while simply averting his gaze. For the Greeks, averting the gaze and looking at her reflection in the shield/mirror were obviously equivalent. Her power was either nullified or greatly diminished when looked at in reflection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I also don't think the eyes were crucial. I'm not aware of any source that stresses her eyes. Rather, they focus on her whole face (Ovid, *Metamorphosis* 4:783) or overall appearance, as in the passage from Apollodoris that you quote. We can't ignore her protruding tongue, tusks, or snakes for hair, since they are all essential to her character and mythological meaning. That's why they are there. And that's why Perseus had to look at the shield even though she was sleeping (presumably her eyes were closed).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we go into the underlying psychological aspects of the myth (as we should with most myths), Perseus, like the typical hero, is in the process of fully realizing his ego consciousness, while this monster represents the all-consuming Terrible Mother of the unconscious seeking to suck him back into there and destroy his nascent ego consciousness. To confront her directly is too dangerous, so only averting the gaze or looking at her indirectly through the reflection will enable him to succeed. In the versions where the &quot;bronze&quot; shield/mirror appears, that is a solar/light symbol of the ego that not only enables him to see a diminished Medusa, but which as such also serves as a guide and beacon to him to keep him on course. Here it is also relevant that the Greeks also stressed the details of his escape. When Perseus kills the Medusa, the winged horse Perseus appears out of her (representing the ego that has escaped her, a parallel with Perseus himself), which Perseus rides while being pursued by Medusa's sisters. His winged sandals, invisibility helmet, and hiding-wallet also play a figurative role, for which he has to thank Athena, goddess of wisdom (and so of consciousness). See Edward Edinger, *The Eternal Drama: The Inner Meaning of Greek Mythology,* pp. 4, 83; Erich Neumann, *The Great Mother,* p. 166; Erich Neumann, *The Origins and History of Consciousness,* pp. 87, 178, 214-16.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I hope this helps.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5638" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1278" RevisionGUID="f8bca737-852f-4b28-8bc4-fa490eea7935" CreationDate="2015-12-30T09:44:28.793" UserId="57" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="Rabbi Solomon ibn Verga writes the following in his work Shevet Yehuda (Ch. 7):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A temple of Lucifer/Venus had a statue with a phallic device which was used to deflower virgins brought in for that purpose. The priests would then gather the blood of the girl’s broken maidenhead and knead it into dough used for baking bread. The men who ate those breads would be rendered “holy”. The girls themselves were not allowed to marry afterwards, but would instead prostitute themselves to anyone who came to the temple at high prices because they believed that any man who engaged in intercourse with them would be absolved of all his sins. The monies received from their services would be split between sustaining the girls themselves and paying the administrating priests of the temple.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the source for this legend?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5639" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1280" RevisionGUID="04071b25-57e1-49e3-b87b-6ca30a84f337" CreationDate="2015-12-31T15:02:32.837" UserId="57" Text="In the beginning of the Epic of Gilgamesh, the prostitute Shamhat civilizes the wild man Enkidu through sex:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; She did for the man the work of a woman,  &#xD;&#xA;his passion caressed and embraced her.  &#xD;&#xA;For six days and seven nights  &#xD;&#xA;Enkidu was erect, as he coupled with Shamhat.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When with her delights he was fully sated,  &#xD;&#xA;he turned his gaze to his herd.  &#xD;&#xA;The gazelles saw Enkidu, they started to run,  &#xD;&#xA;the beasts of the field shied away from his presence.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Enkidu had defiled his body so pure,  &#xD;&#xA;his legs stood still, though his herd was in motion.  &#xD;&#xA;Enkidu was weakened, could not run as before,  &#xD;&#xA;but now he had reason, and wide understanding.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Epic of Gilgamesh, translated by Andrew George, Penguin Books&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do we know of other stories of wild/feral men or women getting civilized through sex? And if so, how do they differ (if at all) from the archetypal story of Shamhat?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5640" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1280" RevisionGUID="04071b25-57e1-49e3-b87b-6ca30a84f337" CreationDate="2015-12-31T15:02:32.837" UserId="57" Text="Examples of wild men or women civilized through sex?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5641" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1280" RevisionGUID="04071b25-57e1-49e3-b87b-6ca30a84f337" CreationDate="2015-12-31T15:02:32.837" UserId="57" Text="|comparative|gilgamesh|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5642" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1281" RevisionGUID="6fb9e656-aad1-4d5f-af49-e45cbf371c7c" CreationDate="2015-12-31T15:57:15.630" UserId="398" Text="The Graeco-Roman equivalent is Hermaphroditus and Salmacis. Although in Ovid's *Metamorphoses*, the original text must be older, as it is preserved on an inscription (the so-called &quot;Pride of Halicarnassus&quot;) found near Salmacis (a fountain near Halicarnassus). I reproduced the relevant part below:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Pride of Halicarnassus&quot; lines 11-22&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;pre&gt;Father Zeus made the sons of Earth famous ritual attendants&#xD;&#xA;who guard the secret dwelling&#xD;&#xA;Nor was the reward they got in return for their toil one of ingratitude:&#xD;&#xA;They received good things for their good deeds:&#xD;&#xA;15 Having settled the lovely promontory sung of as dear to the immortals&#xD;&#xA;by the sweet stream of Salmakis, she (Halikarnassos) controls&#xD;&#xA;the beautiful dwelling of the nymph who once received&#xD;&#xA;our boy, Hermaphroditos, in her kindly arms&#xD;&#xA;and bred him to become an extraordinary man, who invented matrimony&#xD;&#xA;20 for mankind and was the first to fasten the matrimonial bed by law.&#xD;&#xA;She in her turn under the sacred streams dripping in&#xD;&#xA;the cave tempers the savage minds of men.&lt;/pre&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Translated by Signe Isager, from Isager's article &quot;The Pride of Halikarnassos: Editio princes of an inscription from Salmakis,&quot; *Zeitschrift für Papyrologie und Epigraphik* 123 (1998): 1–23.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ovid's tale turns it outright into a rape, which you can read on [Theoi](http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheSalmakis.html) (as it's too long to post in full here)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5643" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1282" RevisionGUID="daaf17b2-3e34-45e0-a213-90c60fdaf5ee" CreationDate="2015-12-31T20:28:21.833" UserId="446" Text="According to this [lecture by Michael Sugrue][1], Enkidu is chosen to die because his hubris and refusal to accept his human status exceeds that of Gilgamesh.  For example, Enkidu throws meat at the goddess Ishtar, and actively tries to create a conflict with her.  Although Gilgamesh (wisely) rejects the sexual advances of Ishtar, he does not try to purposely antagonize her; as a semi-god (half human, half god), he apparently recognizes Ishtar's higher status.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjWHCk3y8-Y" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5644" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1282" RevisionGUID="2824b8f8-f1bc-450b-b8db-2cd2af58decb" CreationDate="2015-12-31T23:21:21.820" UserId="446" Comment="added 18 characters in body" Text="According to this [lecture by Michael Sugrue][1], Enkidu is chosen to die because of his hubris and also his refusal to accept his human status which exceeds that of Gilgamesh.  For example, Enkidu throws meat at the goddess Ishtar, and actively tries to create a conflict with her.  Although Gilgamesh (wisely) rejects the sexual advances of Ishtar, he does not try to purposely antagonize her; as a semi-god (half human, half god), he apparently recognizes Ishtar's higher status.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjWHCk3y8-Y" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5645" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1283" RevisionGUID="bd4fc4ba-4dce-4bdd-8211-2ae3f239a343" CreationDate="2016-01-01T12:10:23.443" UserId="1067" Text="no, she was mad at him and she was a goddess and he was a god, but she didnt comsider a human,even one that worshipped her worthy. she thought poseidon was a god and thats what gods do, she was mad it was in her temple and she blamed medusa. just like rape victims get blamed today. so she said youre so beautiful that he couldnt help himself so i will make u so ugly no man will ever be able to look upon you again.and she banned her from her temple.  those gods were kind of assholes really,  they raped, had tons of bastard children, cheated on their wives, etc' so no&#xD;&#xA;, it wasnt that she couldnt or wouldnt punish him if she wanted. her daddy was zeus the god of gods, if she wanted him punished he wouldve been, again, she blamed medusa  and she was the goddess ofwar so prob had a hot temper" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5648" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1286" RevisionGUID="a1562f63-0a07-4d9c-ab02-288a96859a68" CreationDate="2016-01-01T12:40:34.263" UserId="1067" Text="chaos-the void, then came- tartarus-the abyss, gaia-the earth, eros, erebus-darkness,and nyx-night.  im assuming that was the parts of the world after that there is 7 actual gods and goddesses that came one being aphrodiditie, she was there before crous and zeus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5651" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1283" RevisionGUID="36201e6e-67b5-4c2c-a9ef-dd242b1b3367" CreationDate="2016-01-01T15:44:35.723" UserId="108" Comment="added 17 characters in body" Text="No, she was mad at him and she was a goddess and he was a god, but she dint consider a human, even one that worshipped her, worthy. Poseidon was a god and that's just what gods do, what got her mad was that it was in her temple and she blamed Medusa. Just like rape victims get blamed today. so she said if you're so beautiful that he couldn't help himself, I will make you so ugly no man will ever be able to look upon you again.and she banned her from her temple.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gods were kind of assholes really, they raped, had tons of bastard children, cheated on their wives, etc. So no, it wasn't that she couldn't or wouldn't punish him if she wanted. Her daddy was Zeus the god of gods, if she wanted him punished he would've been, again, she blamed Medusa  and she was the goddess of war so probably had a hot temper." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5652" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1286" RevisionGUID="ae3062c5-b479-4f52-aa57-248f58f80fc7" CreationDate="2016-01-01T15:47:30.193" UserId="108" Comment="added 5 characters in body" Text="Chaos the void, then came Tartarus the abyss, Gaia the earth, Eros, Erebus the darkness, and Nyx, night. I'm assuming that was the parts of the world after that there is 7 actual gods and goddesses that came one being Aphrodite, she was there before Chronos and Zeus." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5653" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1287" RevisionGUID="3ce86a6b-3f3a-47ed-bcd3-39f40827f9cd" CreationDate="2016-01-01T22:43:08.730" UserId="1068" Text="&gt; However, it Bernlak's actions here suggest that he is no longer under such a spell, as he voluntarily gives away the information.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This observation would be true if Bernlak had been transformed into something other than a human. However, there are scores of Celtic tales wherein the human victims of evil-doers freely tell the &quot;white knight&quot; about their fate because of the perpetrator. Moreover, Mabinogion has at least one story wherein the victim is at first an adversary himself, just as in this case.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5654" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1287" RevisionGUID="40d91b08-0b31-404e-b02b-263923716c33" CreationDate="2016-01-01T22:52:45.897" UserId="1068" Comment="circumstance added: death by beheading" Text="&gt; However, it Bernlak's actions here suggest that he is no longer under such a spell, as he voluntarily gives away the information.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This observation would be true if Bernlak had been transformed into something other than a human. However, there are scores of Celtic tales wherein the human victims of evil-doers freely tell the &quot;white knight&quot; about their fate because of the perpetrator. Moreover, Mabinogion has at least one story wherein the victim is at first an adversary himself, just as in this case.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The willingness to put himself into a match which might end with death by beheading is remarkable. If there is a taboo, a doom or a spell in the knight's motivation, this is a more probable circumstance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5655" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1288" RevisionGUID="d8d6d129-48d1-4820-ad20-b041af54b5bd" CreationDate="2016-01-02T01:55:14.957" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5656" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1289" RevisionGUID="5786eea1-dae9-4cd4-8c2a-83543cb0ba89" CreationDate="2016-01-02T01:55:14.957" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5657" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1290" RevisionGUID="f7ce7ac8-f9b8-42ab-a663-e22e089d8036" CreationDate="2016-01-02T01:55:27.827" UserId="967" Text="Why did giants have snake legs? The giants, who were destined by Gaea to kill one divine being (except for Orion) each, has scaly, snakelike legs. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It wouldn't seem that they would be any help. Was it on purpose? An accident?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5658" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1290" RevisionGUID="f7ce7ac8-f9b8-42ab-a663-e22e089d8036" CreationDate="2016-01-02T01:55:27.827" UserId="967" Text="Why did giants have snake legs?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5659" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1290" RevisionGUID="f7ce7ac8-f9b8-42ab-a663-e22e089d8036" CreationDate="2016-01-02T01:55:27.827" UserId="967" Text="|greek|giants|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5660" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1290" RevisionGUID="0f2ec855-4cfa-41d2-abd4-38305379565c" CreationDate="2016-01-02T05:22:56.110" UserId="967" Comment="added 116 characters in body" Text="Why did giants have snake legs? The giants, who were destined by Gaea to kill one divine being (except for Orion) each, has scaly, snakelike legs. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It wouldn't seem that they would be any help. Was it on purpose? An accident?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Giants][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As shown in the pic, the giant has snake legs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/dPQiY.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5661" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1291" RevisionGUID="3c679f42-a806-4ace-8353-e8f441594f74" CreationDate="2016-01-02T06:42:33.533" UserId="398" Text="Early representations of giants actually looked normal and human. Consider this representation of Alcyoneus, the king of the giants:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![The winged god Hypnos (Sleep personified) crouches in slumber on the chest of the giant Alkyoneus. The giant reclines in sleep, holding his club, and surrounded by his cattle. Herakles (not shown) sneaks up upon him.][1]][1](http://www.theoi.com/Gallery/L1.2.html)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was in fact only in the Alexandrian era did giants acquire feet of snakes.[1](Pausanias' Description of Greece, translated with a commentary by J. G. Frazer, vol. 6 1898.) Why exactly they were chosen to be represented this way is unknown, but it makes sense, considering that the giants are the offspring of Gaia (the earth), and serpents in Mediterranean religion (and elsewhere) are—for very obvious reasons—intimately connected with land and with Gaia herself. It was probably just to symbolically show their origins.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/image/L1.2Alkyoneus.jpg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: Pausanias' *Description of Greece*, translated with a commentary by J. G. Frazer, vol. 6 1898." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5662" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1292" RevisionGUID="fcc8b395-ca44-4d6f-8930-e24ccf9a3552" CreationDate="2016-01-02T11:25:41.707" UserId="57" Text="I flew to Crete on New Year's Eve, and the flight crew offered all of us a pomegranate and instructed us to break it open at midnight.&#xA;&#xA;What's the story there? How is the pomegranate connected with celebrating the New Year?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5663" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1292" RevisionGUID="fcc8b395-ca44-4d6f-8930-e24ccf9a3552" CreationDate="2016-01-02T11:25:41.707" UserId="57" Text="Ηοw is the pomegranate connected with New Year's celebrations?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5664" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1292" RevisionGUID="fcc8b395-ca44-4d6f-8930-e24ccf9a3552" CreationDate="2016-01-02T11:25:41.707" UserId="57" Text="|greek|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5665" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1276" RevisionGUID="7074eea5-c14b-4681-8c04-b8186af2e03a" CreationDate="2016-01-02T14:06:39.950" UserId="183" Comment="added 25 characters in body" Text="[*The Story of Atrahasis*](http://faculty.gvsu.edu/websterm/Atrahasi.htm), which is thought to be closely related to *The Epic of Gilgamesh*, is partially lost, but enough fragments remain to figure out its meeting. Humanity annoys the gods many times with its incessant noise. The gods, spearheaded by Enlil, cast several plagues on humanity; Enki (Ea) advises Atrahasis on how to help his people through each one. The last of these is the Deluge.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[*The Epic of Ziusudra*](http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/sum/sum09.htm), also partially lost, is a very similar version of the story. Again, Enki helps one ruler survive the flood brought on by the gods in an attempt to completely wipe out mankind. It does not appear that the two kings (Atrahasis and Ziusudra) are the same person, as both the names appear in different places on the [Sumerian King List](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_King_List)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5666" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1293" RevisionGUID="74b04913-52b1-460c-8d9a-9812984bec3c" CreationDate="2016-01-02T16:12:07.830" UserId="967" Text="Well abc news explains it [here][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In Greece, the pomegranate has held strong symbolic meaning since ancient times. A common tradition on New Year's Eve is to throw pomegranates on the ground, and break them apart. The more they burst, the more abundance your household will have.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Crete is basically Greece, and so the pomegranate is well known as a sign of abundance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[also:][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In Ancient Greek mythology, the pomegranate features prominently in the story of Persephone and her marriage to Hades, the god of the Underworld. Hades kidnapped Persephone and took her to the Underworld to be his wife. Persephone’s mother, Demeter, goddess of fertility, considering her daughter lost, went into mourning and thus all things on earth ceased to grow. Zeus, Persephone’s father, commanded his brother Hades to release her, however Hades had tricked her into eating six pomegranate seeds, and it was the rule of the Fates that anyone who consumed food or drink in the Underworld was doomed to spend eternity there. Since Persephone had eaten the six pomegranate seeds,  she had to remain in the Underworld for six months of the year. Hades agreed to release her to the world above for the other six months of the year, to be reunited with her mother. This is how the ancient Greeks explained the cycle of the seasons: when Persephone was with her mother, the earth flourished and the crops grew (Spring and Summer); when she returned to Hades, Demeter mourned and the earth was infertile (Autumn and Winter). As a consequence, pomegranates were often offered to the goddess Demeter in prayer for fertile land.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you TLDRed it, then basically, the myth of Persephone and Hades ties in because offerings were brought to Demeter in the sign of a Pomegranate.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://abc7.com/society/new-years-eve-traditions-around-the-world-said-to-bring-you-good-luck/455570/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://itsallgreeklondon.wordpress.com/2014/10/29/the-significance-of-the-pomegranate-in-ancient-greece/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5668" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1291" RevisionGUID="38514835-1d8d-45fd-8879-4c208fcf6011" CreationDate="2016-01-02T19:06:00.420" UserId="398" Comment="edited body" Text="Early representations of giants actually looked normal and human. Consider this representation of Alcyoneus, the king of the giants:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![The winged god Hypnos (Sleep personified) crouches in slumber on the chest of the giant Alkyoneus. The giant reclines in sleep, holding his club, and surrounded by his cattle. Herakles (not shown) sneaks up upon him.][1]][1](http://www.theoi.com/Gallery/L1.2.html)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was in fact only in the Hellenistic era did giants acquire feet of snakes.[1](Pausanias' Description of Greece, translated with a commentary by J. G. Frazer, vol. 6 1898.) Why exactly they were chosen to be represented this way is unknown, but it makes sense, considering that the giants are the offspring of Gaia (the earth), and serpents in Mediterranean religion (and elsewhere) are—for very obvious reasons—intimately connected with land and with Gaia herself. It was probably just to symbolically show their origins.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/image/L1.2Alkyoneus.jpg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: Pausanias' *Description of Greece*, translated with a commentary by J. G. Frazer, vol. 6 1898." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5676" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="411" RevisionGUID="7d3dd5d2-ce01-44f3-b35e-d0877c33f00e" CreationDate="2016-01-04T21:49:18.260" UserId="183" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:183,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;HDE 226868&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="5680" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1232" RevisionGUID="6301c217-25e1-490c-bfc6-8d47f8f52615" CreationDate="2016-01-04T22:47:36.417" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="changed my blog url for hopefully the last time" Text="A third point that I feel should be mentioned in any discussion of Joseph Campbell: although Joseph Campbell is very popular with the general public, there are a number of significant flaws in his theory that haven't been addressed. [To quote from Alan Dundes, a professor of Folklore and Anthropology at the University of California, Berkeley][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; My  sole  point  in  mentioning this disheartening  incident is to  suggest that for  many  members of the literate public, the  study  of folklore means precisely Campbell and his writings. Yet professional folklorists  have said very little about the huge corpus of Campbelliana.  I do not know if  any  of his many books were ever even reviewed in JAF.  Is this a case of &quot;silence gives assent&quot;?  Very likely more people were introduced  to the  subject  matter of folklore by  the writings  of  Campbell or the PBS television series of lectures by  him than by any  other source. And yet we folklorists have said little or nothing about him and his theories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dundes makes a number of criticisms of Joseph Campbell. One of these is of his assumption that myths are universal, which, as Dundes quickly proves, is not the case. To quote from Dundes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;It has  long  been a  popular fantasy among  amateur students of  myth  that all peoples share the same stories. This is  clearly  an  example  of wishful thinking. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Examples of myths that Joseph Campbell claims to be universal but which are not are include:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. The flood myth, which is &quot;absent from sub-Saharan Africa&quot; (Dundes).&#xD;&#xA;2. The &quot;virgin-birth&quot; motif, which is only present in three separate myths, and is absent from &quot;Africa... Siberia, Polynesia, ... Melanesia, ... Australia and New  Guinea&quot; (Dundes).&#xD;&#xA;3. The &quot;belly of the whale&quot; motif: this &quot;motif&quot; is only present in the old testament (Dundes). The only other example Campbell cites of a &quot;belly of the wale&quot; motif -- the story of Red Riding Hood -- is a horrible example. Red Riding Hood is only swallowed by a wolf in the written version of the story; in the oral version of the story &quot;the  girl  is not swallowed by  the wolf at all... Instead she  escapes through  a clever ruse  by pretending to need to go  outside to defecate&quot; (Dundes).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think it would be safe to say that Joseph Campbell's arguments that the monomyth is &quot;universal&quot; aren't very sound. If you are interested in reading more, [Dundes' article is available on JSTOR][1], which you can usually access for free from a [public library][2]. Dundes has other criticisms of of Campbell, but they aren't relevant to the question asked by the OP.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I also recently wrote a [blog post about Joseph Campbell that might interest you][3]. It elaborates on the points that I made in this post.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/4137664&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.worldcat.org/libraries&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://taxicrash.github.io/monomyth-incorrect-dangerous/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5681" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1297" RevisionGUID="c87d5045-fba4-4f8d-9cc9-faee121816ce" CreationDate="2016-01-05T05:35:21.020" UserId="1076" Text="[New to the community]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have picked this question up from the sample questions in the definition phase of this site. I found this question very interesting.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How different is the mythology across various regions of Greece, and are they connected to each other in some way or the other?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5682" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1297" RevisionGUID="c87d5045-fba4-4f8d-9cc9-faee121816ce" CreationDate="2016-01-05T05:35:21.020" UserId="1076" Text="How much did Greek mythology vary throughout different regions of Greece?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5683" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1297" RevisionGUID="c87d5045-fba4-4f8d-9cc9-faee121816ce" CreationDate="2016-01-05T05:35:21.020" UserId="1076" Text="|greek|history|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5684" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1298" RevisionGUID="32602f5c-d481-4c22-b830-b613fe0bbbca" CreationDate="2016-01-05T12:50:28.743" UserId="644" Text="It would be more productive, perhaps, to think of those not as of *fields*, but rather as of *separate data entities* of different kinds. Why? Because there are simply no obligatory singular characteristic which you could apply to *any* deity. Not even `name`, as a single deity might have been known under different names in different regions, but it wold still be that very same deity (meaning that both priesthood and laity would recognize that deity as the same they worship). Not even `pantheon` (most clear and wide-known example would be Greek and Roman mythologies, e.g. Greek Poseidon equals Roman Neptune, Greek Zeus equals Roman Jupiter etc.). So basically, in relational database terms, the only data field `deities` table should hold would be `primary key ID`.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And, speaking of `deities` table, it rather shouldn't be named as such, as while taking into account religious traditions including, but not limited to *shamanism*, *shintoism* and *taoism*, there may or may not be any kind of deities, but there could well be mystical entities of similar significance but vastly different *type*. So creating a `religious-entity-type` separate data entity would also be useful." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5685" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1298" RevisionGUID="e24112ce-c7f9-492f-8bb9-21ddeba28250" CreationDate="2016-01-05T13:01:50.233" UserId="644" Comment="added 188 characters in body" Text="It would be more productive, perhaps, to think of those not as of *fields*, but rather as of *separate data entities* of different kinds. Why? Because there are simply no obligatory singular characteristic which you could apply to *any* deity. Not even `name`, as a single deity might have been known under different names in different regions, but it wold still be that very same deity (meaning that both priesthood and laity would recognize that deity as the same they worship). Not even `pantheon` (most clear and wide-known example would be Greek and Roman mythologies, e.g. Greek Poseidon equals Roman Neptune, Greek Zeus equals Roman Jupiter etc.). So basically, in relational database terms, the only data field `deities` table should hold would be `primary key ID`.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And, speaking of `deities` table, it rather shouldn't be named as such, as while taking into account religious traditions including, but not limited to *shamanism*, *shintoism* and *taoism*, there may or may not be any kind of deities, but there could well be mystical entities of similar significance but vastly different *type*. So creating a `religious-entity-type` separate data entity would also be useful.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That approach would also greatly aid extensibility, as it is easier to create a new kind of entity and corresponding relationships to pre-existing entities, than editing existing ones." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5687" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1270" RevisionGUID="72474bce-9588-42ee-a181-983610f913c7" CreationDate="2016-01-05T21:46:01.673" UserId="235" Comment="Update for those with Database experience" Text="I'm ready to begin building a databased-website that will provide cataloged details about the various gods, goddesses and pantheons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm looking for the most efficient structure for cataloging them. Such as what data pieces / fields would be generic enough to be important for all deities yet not be majorly unused on the majority of the entries (and it needs to capture those deities who have different names among different cultures). I've read and own multiple books that cover this topic and they each tend to be primarily author-myopic, focusing on the mythologies / religions that the author considered most important while ignoring the countless other deities worshipped by groups of people. I also have seen (and bookmarked) multiple 'God Databases' and they, as well, seem to be stunted, and not allowing for growth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Basically, any database architecture, metadata, cataloging recommendations would be greatly valued and appreciated.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For clarification purposes. I want to use this website / database for a set of specific purposes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Public Domain. Almost every site out there that tracks deities has these disclaimers that stop you from referencing their entries on the deities without some serious contractual agreements, others just say no. I want something that can be referenced by all, for all, and updateable by those who have a legitimate interest.&#xD;&#xA; 2. [OGP.me][1]. I would like to be able to reference a god in a tweet or facebook post and have a decent image, title, etc. display just like when you post a reference to a blog post, or instagram image. In order to do this, the structure needs to be Open Graph ready. That's part of my goal.&#xD;&#xA; 3. Fields. By 'field' I am trying to convey that I am looking for metadata properties, descriptors, etc. that are generic-enough to fit for most deities (and deity-like entities). Think &quot;NAME&quot; (as an example) all mythological entities have a name. Some have hundreds. NAME would be a field I could use. DISCIPLINE would be another. Don't be locked into &quot;text field&quot; concepts. I can offer multiple choice selections. That way, when entering Dionysus I could enter under DISCIPLINE several entries such as 'grape harvest', 'winemaking', 'wine', 'ritual madness', 'fertility', 'theatre' and 'religious ecstasy'. The end desire would be to be able to search for the word 'fertility' and Dionysus (as an example) would pull up.&#xD;&#xA; 4. Technical Sidenote: For those more DB-savvy, I am NOT naming this object / table &quot;DEITY&quot; but rather &quot;ENTITY&quot; and I didn't include this information in the initial question to avoid confusion for those not familiar with DB structuring. I've worked with databases for more than 2 decades and I've learned that if you're not comfortable with creating tables, queries, and relationships then DB naming conventions will only confuse you.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://ogp.me/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5688" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1297" RevisionGUID="8b96acdc-4f53-4a1b-9db3-06c01ea6e12b" CreationDate="2016-01-05T21:56:46.380" UserId="967" Comment="no need to mark urself out" Text="I have picked this question up from the sample questions in the definition phase of this site. I found this question very interesting.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How different is the mythology across various regions of Greece, and are they connected to each other in some way or the other?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5689" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1297" RevisionGUID="8b96acdc-4f53-4a1b-9db3-06c01ea6e12b" CreationDate="2016-01-05T21:56:46.380" Comment="Proposed by 967 approved by 183 edit id of 262" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5691" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1299" RevisionGUID="b45f902a-020f-4225-a3c5-117b95a9d10f" CreationDate="2016-01-06T04:58:50.477" UserId="1086" Text="&quot;And where we had thought to find an abomination, we shall find a god; where we had thought to slay another, we shall slay ourselves; where we had thought to travel outward, we shall come to the center of our own existence; and where we had thought to be alone, we shall be with all the world.&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5692" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1299" RevisionGUID="b45f902a-020f-4225-a3c5-117b95a9d10f" CreationDate="2016-01-06T04:58:50.477" UserId="1086" Text="What is the meaning or significance of the following Joseph Campbell quote, &quot;and where we had thought to be alone, we shall be with all the world.&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5693" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1299" RevisionGUID="b45f902a-020f-4225-a3c5-117b95a9d10f" CreationDate="2016-01-06T04:58:50.477" UserId="1086" Text="|monomyth|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5694" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1299" RevisionGUID="0fa6d6d8-84ce-4b38-9d7c-e2e16bb395aa" CreationDate="2016-01-06T10:20:13.237" UserId="1076" Comment="Added a quote and a helpful link" Text="&gt; And where we had thought to find an abomination, we shall find a god;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; where we had thought to slay another, we shall slay ourselves; where&#xD;&#xA;&gt; we had thought to travel outward, we shall come to the center of our&#xD;&#xA;&gt; own existence; and where we had thought to be alone, we shall be with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; all the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Link](http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/37475-the-hero-path-we-have-not-even-to-risk-the)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5695" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1299" RevisionGUID="0fa6d6d8-84ce-4b38-9d7c-e2e16bb395aa" CreationDate="2016-01-06T10:20:13.237" Comment="Proposed by 1076 approved by 398, 57 edit id of 263" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5696" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1300" RevisionGUID="ddebfa34-b354-4a41-afd7-28626eda06c9" CreationDate="2016-01-07T10:12:23.833" UserId="1089" Text="In the Indian epic Ramayana, the women show some great complex characters, behaviours etc but they are much less explored and sometimes sidelined/forgotten(not entirely) by the overshadowing persona of the male characters. In the other Indian epic Mahabharata, there are even more powerful female characters, but the main theme of this epic is war, which, was not fought by women but men(and I don't have a problem with that). There are some stories of the birth of Durga etc but that is not an epic. Some of which I know already are - Abhijanshakuntalam by Kalidasa , Mrichhakatika by shudraka, Silapathikaram, Siri Sandhi,Manimekalai. These are not clearly epics(not very long, very detailed. Some of them are, but not entirely). And on top of that, these are only Indic literature. My question is,  there is/are any epic(s) which have the woman as a central character other than these, in world or Indic Literature?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5697" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1300" RevisionGUID="ddebfa34-b354-4a41-afd7-28626eda06c9" CreationDate="2016-01-07T10:12:23.833" UserId="1089" Text="Are there any epics in world/Indic literature that are woman centric,where a woman is the protagonist and sidelined/less explored male characters?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5698" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1300" RevisionGUID="ddebfa34-b354-4a41-afd7-28626eda06c9" CreationDate="2016-01-07T10:12:23.833" UserId="1089" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5699" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1301" RevisionGUID="aa2447a0-6666-4240-8420-c09b0d6c0164" CreationDate="2016-01-07T10:17:52.027" UserId="1089" Text="I found this blog about an article written in the newspaper The Hindu , about 10 years which is an exerpt from a retelling of mahabharata from the viewpoint of Sahadev. I googled for the book but could not find it. Can you identify it? Here is the link-&#xD;&#xA;http://whatiamupto.blogspot.in/2011/05/sahadeva-lesser-know-hero-of.html?m=1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5700" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1301" RevisionGUID="aa2447a0-6666-4240-8420-c09b0d6c0164" CreationDate="2016-01-07T10:17:52.027" UserId="1089" Text="What is the name of the book on Mahabharata with the POV of Sahadeva?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5701" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1301" RevisionGUID="aa2447a0-6666-4240-8420-c09b0d6c0164" CreationDate="2016-01-07T10:17:52.027" UserId="1089" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5704" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="527" RevisionGUID="69717a5e-2869-4b9f-95f0-c9852e9ff950" CreationDate="2016-01-07T11:12:06.863" UserId="36" Comment="added 86 characters in body" Text="###The [Pomola][1] is  a snow bird spirit in Native American mythology, it lived on [Mt Katahdin][2] and caused cold weather&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In Penobscot folklore, the Pomola was a bird spirit that lived on Mt Katahdin. It was associated with night, wind, snow, and storms. Apparently it had a moose's head according to some legends. The [Penobscots][3] and [Abenakis][4] avoided climbing to the top of this mountain so as not to disturb it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][5]][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.native-languages.org/pomola.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/TjWikiKatahdin.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.penobscotnation.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.tolatsga.org/aben.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/aj4We.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/iRlQW.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5705" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1301" RevisionGUID="bbe55f2b-7e9a-4a1a-908a-939f704e8956" CreationDate="2016-01-07T13:32:34.893" UserId="1089" Comment="edited tags" Text="|comparative|hindu|india|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5706" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1300" RevisionGUID="0f526d3a-7dce-4070-b678-a281923c40b7" CreationDate="2016-01-07T13:33:37.420" UserId="1089" Comment="edited tags" Text="|comparative|hindu|india|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5707" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1301" RevisionGUID="59163110-58dd-4acc-8d77-baba8d37db32" CreationDate="2016-01-07T13:36:56.847" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|hindu|india|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5708" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1300" RevisionGUID="6f1ffa2f-207a-43f8-b980-3405d2ff8efd" CreationDate="2016-01-07T13:41:43.737" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|hindu|india|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5709" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1301" RevisionGUID="efc2cd15-88f6-4fad-9e34-d18f89f69c28" CreationDate="2016-01-07T13:43:36.983" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 11 characters in body; edited title" Text="I found [this blog][1] about an article in the newspaper The Hindu, which has and excerpt from a retelling of the Mahabharata from the point of view of Sahadeva. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I searched for the book but could not find it. Can you identify it?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://whatiamupto.blogspot.in/2011/05/sahadeva-lesser-know-hero-of.html?m=1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5710" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1301" RevisionGUID="efc2cd15-88f6-4fad-9e34-d18f89f69c28" CreationDate="2016-01-07T13:43:36.983" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 11 characters in body; edited title" Text="What is the name of the Mahabharata version told from the point of view of Sahadeva?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5715" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1293" RevisionGUID="8a8fb659-a90e-400f-b7a7-164ef0c6b7fb" CreationDate="2016-01-07T14:37:37.363" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 10 characters in body" Text="ABC News explains it [here][1]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Greece, the pomegranate has held strong symbolic meaning since ancient times. A common tradition on New Year's Eve is to throw pomegranates on the ground, and break them apart. The more they burst, the more abundance your household will have.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Crete is in Greece, and so the pomegranate is well known as a sign of abundance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[also:][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In Ancient Greek mythology, the pomegranate features prominently in the story of Persephone and her marriage to Hades, the god of the Underworld. Hades kidnapped Persephone and took her to the Underworld to be his wife. Persephone’s mother, Demeter, goddess of fertility, considering her daughter lost, went into mourning and thus all things on earth ceased to grow. Zeus, Persephone’s father, commanded his brother Hades to release her, however Hades had tricked her into eating six pomegranate seeds, and it was the rule of the Fates that anyone who consumed food or drink in the Underworld was doomed to spend eternity there. Since Persephone had eaten the six pomegranate seeds,  she had to remain in the Underworld for six months of the year. Hades agreed to release her to the world above for the other six months of the year, to be reunited with her mother. This is how the ancient Greeks explained the cycle of the seasons: when Persephone was with her mother, the earth flourished and the crops grew (Spring and Summer); when she returned to Hades, Demeter mourned and the earth was infertile (Autumn and Winter). As a consequence, pomegranates were often offered to the goddess Demeter in prayer for fertile land.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you TLDRed it, then basically, the myth of Persephone and Hades ties in because offerings were brought to Demeter in the sign of a Pomegranate.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://abc7.com/society/new-years-eve-traditions-around-the-world-said-to-bring-you-good-luck/455570/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://itsallgreeklondon.wordpress.com/2014/10/29/the-significance-of-the-pomegranate-in-ancient-greece/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5716" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1281" RevisionGUID="c4b8f443-7893-4d4a-9889-0342f4976d6b" CreationDate="2016-01-07T14:45:10.200" UserId="57" Comment="added 27 characters in body" Text="The Graeco-Roman equivalent is Hermaphroditus and Salmacis. Although in Ovid's *Metamorphoses*, the original text must be older, as it is preserved on an inscription (the so-called &quot;Pride of Halicarnassus&quot;) found near Salmacis (a fountain near Halicarnassus). I reproduced the relevant part below:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Pride of Halicarnassus&quot; lines 11-22:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Father Zeus made the sons of Earth famous ritual attendants  &#xD;&#xA;who guard the secret dwelling  &#xD;&#xA;Nor was the reward they got in return for their toil one of ingratitude:  &#xD;&#xA;They received good things for their good deeds:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Having settled the lovely promontory sung of as dear to the immortals  &#xD;&#xA;by the sweet stream of Salmakis, she (Halikarnassos) controls  &#xD;&#xA;the beautiful dwelling of the nymph who once received  &#xD;&#xA;our boy, Hermaphroditos, in her kindly arms  &#xD;&#xA;and bred him to become an extraordinary man, who invented matrimony  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for mankind and was the first to fasten the matrimonial bed by law.  &#xD;&#xA;She in her turn under the sacred streams dripping in  &#xD;&#xA;the cave tempers the savage minds of men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Translated by Signe Isager, from Isager's article &quot;The Pride of Halikarnassos: Editio princes of an inscription from Salmakis,&quot; *Zeitschrift für Papyrologie und Epigraphik* 123 (1998): 1–23.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ovid's tale turns it outright into a rape, which you can read on [Theoi](http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheSalmakis.html) (as it's too long to post in full here)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5717" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1301" RevisionGUID="11c1a1a0-95ef-4170-9aee-8656b5b16287" CreationDate="2016-01-07T16:44:38.893" UserId="1089" Comment="added 105 characters in body" Text="I found [this blog][1] about an article in the newspaper The Hindu, which has and excerpt from a retelling of the Mahabharata from the point of view of Sahadeva. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I searched for the book but could not find it. Can you identify it?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://whatiamupto.blogspot.in/2011/05/sahadeva-lesser-know-hero-of.html?m=1&#xD;&#xA;This is the excerpt link - http://whatiamupto.blogspot.in/2011/05/sahadeva-lesser-know-hero-of.html?m=1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5721" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1305" RevisionGUID="1363da76-4018-48c6-bbd8-7fbdb71c3658" CreationDate="2016-01-07T21:03:33.923" UserId="967" Text="The gods that I know-&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Bellona - Roman goddess of war&#xD;&#xA; - Lupa- Roman wolf goddess&#xD;&#xA; - Janus- 2 headed goddess roman&#xD;&#xA; - Pomona- god of plentiful&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That's it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5723" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1306" RevisionGUID="ac9eba49-995b-406a-a87b-1b9304ee0387" CreationDate="2016-01-08T01:05:01.670" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5724" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1307" RevisionGUID="eda344f4-2571-491f-a233-bdf3d60e3c7c" CreationDate="2016-01-08T01:05:01.670" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5725" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1308" RevisionGUID="1e6d2db8-fa6e-4e5a-ba9f-1d7ccdaa6f87" CreationDate="2016-01-08T03:48:31.267" UserId="1016" Text="What we know of Norse mythology is from two sources: the Prose Edda and the Poetic Edda.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But what's the difference between the two?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which source has which story?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5726" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1308" RevisionGUID="1e6d2db8-fa6e-4e5a-ba9f-1d7ccdaa6f87" CreationDate="2016-01-08T03:48:31.267" UserId="1016" Text="The Two Volumes of Norse Myth--Which One is Which?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5727" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1308" RevisionGUID="1e6d2db8-fa6e-4e5a-ba9f-1d7ccdaa6f87" CreationDate="2016-01-08T03:48:31.267" UserId="1016" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5728" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1309" RevisionGUID="0a3779af-99ca-486f-8e73-70a22f83a3fe" CreationDate="2016-01-08T14:33:10.890" UserId="1095" Text="Simply put. How can we be so sure of the validity of mythos. Especially for me, who is searching the net, as apposed to ancient Greek libraries or asking an actual Norse priest.&#xA;&#xA;I'm just curious since even with more modern subjects such as Buddhism or science. The internet can be persuasive but not always accurate.&#xA;&#xA;How can we be sure of he sources? Is this why its called 'myth'os since its basically a story? &#xA;&#xA;I'm only asking since with my time I've heard many differing tales. For instance Kronus is sometimes talked about as aplanet, or the God of time, Chaos, or just simply Zeus father.&#xA;&#xA;**How and where so you goto verify mythos validity**" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5729" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1309" RevisionGUID="0a3779af-99ca-486f-8e73-70a22f83a3fe" CreationDate="2016-01-08T14:33:10.890" UserId="1095" Text="Being just that &quot;mythos&quot;. How can we be so sure" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5730" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1309" RevisionGUID="0a3779af-99ca-486f-8e73-70a22f83a3fe" CreationDate="2016-01-08T14:33:10.890" UserId="1095" Text="|zeus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5732" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1308" RevisionGUID="4525587b-c899-4db1-abfb-45dd7fd67141" CreationDate="2016-01-08T17:38:50.173" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="this title makes more sence" Text="What is the difference between the Prose Edda and the Poetic Edda?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5733" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1310" RevisionGUID="08d217f5-4528-440e-8821-4ba4e0d0b53e" CreationDate="2016-01-08T17:58:23.013" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="&gt; Especially for me, who is searching the net, as apposed to ancient Greek libraries or asking an actual Norse priest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That's your first problem. Get off the internet and go to a library instead. There are exceptions, but in general I have found that the internet is filled with inaccurate information. Libraries are much more likely to contain books written by experts (see below):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; How can we be sure of he sources? Is this why its called 'myth'os since its basically a story? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You're essentially asking: how does the academic process work? The answer is: academic experts in anything will &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Cite their sources when they make claims (which makes it easy to evaluate whether their claims are accurate)&#xD;&#xA;2. Give their work to other experts, who will evaluate their work based on its accuracy (this is called peer review).&#xD;&#xA;3. Have read a huge amount of the literature related to their subject. All of the people who I would consider an academic expert have literally read hundreds of books on the subjects they teach/write about.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These three things make it much more likely for something that an academic says to be true.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You could also seek out non-academic experts, i.e. people who have been doing [thing x] for a long period of time and thus know a lot about it. This is hard to do with Greek mythology, but should be easy to do with something like Buddhism; I personally know several people who I would consider experts in Buddhism because they practice it every day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you are looking for accuracy/truth: seek out experts, and experts are much more likely to be found in the real world, not the internet." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5734" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1311" RevisionGUID="9745786d-7f35-46c5-97f4-3d97a4626594" CreationDate="2016-01-08T19:49:35.873" UserId="1076" Text="The Nose ship burial, according to Wikipedia:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A prominent tradition is that of the ship burial, where the deceased&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was laid in a boat, or a stone ship, and given grave offerings in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; accordance with his earthly status and profession, sometimes including&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sacrificed slaves. Afterwards, piles of stone and soil were usually&#xD;&#xA;&gt; laid on top of the remains in order to create a tumulus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Helpful Link](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_burial)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And in the movie, [How to Train Your Dragon 2][1], the burial of the deceased chief is a ship burial, where his son lights the pyre by shooting a fire-lit arrow; and then the rest of the people (4 of them in the scene) shoots the fire arrows at the pyre, and lighting it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, is the ritual done like how it is depicted, or some other way?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And how did this ritual originate from, and what does it depict/it's significance?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Train_Your_Dragon_2" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5735" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1311" RevisionGUID="9745786d-7f35-46c5-97f4-3d97a4626594" CreationDate="2016-01-08T19:49:35.873" UserId="1076" Text="How did the Norse ship burial originate from?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5736" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1311" RevisionGUID="9745786d-7f35-46c5-97f4-3d97a4626594" CreationDate="2016-01-08T19:49:35.873" UserId="1076" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5737" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1312" RevisionGUID="c83912c0-187f-4cc9-99d7-b1e6fa3020ba" CreationDate="2016-01-08T20:57:24.813" UserId="967" Text="Well, there was a guy who wanted to get on the sun chariot, but eventually he died or something happened to him, but he got too close or something. What is the name of the boy, and what is the time period?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5738" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1312" RevisionGUID="c83912c0-187f-4cc9-99d7-b1e6fa3020ba" CreationDate="2016-01-08T20:57:24.813" UserId="967" Text="What is this myth about Helios?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5739" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1312" RevisionGUID="c83912c0-187f-4cc9-99d7-b1e6fa3020ba" CreationDate="2016-01-08T20:57:24.813" UserId="967" Text="|greek|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5740" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="1309" RevisionGUID="6a408b49-bd15-42b5-b181-c5f292589ee8" CreationDate="2016-01-08T23:18:52.740" UserId="183" Comment="103" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:62,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Hamlet&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:98,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;PythonMaster&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:183,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;HDE 226868&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="5741" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1307" RevisionGUID="a4cb81d2-dcfd-4972-8c04-9333f18b671a" CreationDate="2016-01-08T23:19:24.713" UserId="967" Comment="added 66 characters in body" Text="For questions concerning the wine god, the son of Zeus and Semele." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5742" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1307" RevisionGUID="a4cb81d2-dcfd-4972-8c04-9333f18b671a" CreationDate="2016-01-08T23:19:24.713" Comment="Proposed by 967 approved by 62, 183 edit id of 266" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5743" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1299" RevisionGUID="2b636adb-f264-4929-8ff3-af40bebb0785" CreationDate="2016-01-08T23:21:36.780" UserId="967" Comment="formatting" Text="&gt; And where we had thought to find an abomination, we shall find a god;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Where we had thought to slay another, we shall slay ourselves; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Where we had thought to travel outward, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; We shall come to the center of our own existence&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And where we had thought to be alone, we shall be with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; all the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Link](http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/37475-the-hero-path-we-have-not-even-to-risk-the)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5744" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1299" RevisionGUID="2b636adb-f264-4929-8ff3-af40bebb0785" CreationDate="2016-01-08T23:21:36.780" UserId="967" Comment="formatting" Text="What is the meaning or significance of the following Joseph Campbell quote?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5745" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1299" RevisionGUID="2b636adb-f264-4929-8ff3-af40bebb0785" CreationDate="2016-01-08T23:21:36.780" Comment="Proposed by 967 approved by 36, -1 edit id of 264" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5746" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1299" RevisionGUID="8a4fc4ee-5ab7-4e5b-8bb7-34a22919d99c" CreationDate="2016-01-08T23:21:36.780" UserId="183" Comment="Edited formatting." Text="&gt; And where we had thought to find an abomination we shall find a God.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Where we had thought to slay another we shall slay ourselves. &#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Where we had thought to travel outward we shall come to the center of our own existence.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And where we had thought to be alone we shall be with all the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Link](http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/37475-the-hero-path-we-have-not-even-to-risk-the)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5747" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1313" RevisionGUID="4ebac502-7ee6-4d86-875b-99a343e519f3" CreationDate="2016-01-09T01:58:26.387" UserId="967" Text="Well, [Wikipedia][1] says...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The regions of ancient Greece were areas identified by the ancient Greeks as geographical sub-divisions of the Hellenic world. These regions are described in the works of ancient historians and geographers, and in the legends and myths of the ancient Greeks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then, if you go on, then you get a whole bunch of regions of Greece.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then, Ctrl+F it and search up &quot;myth&quot; and 4 of them pop up. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Stated in the first paragraph.&#xD;&#xA; 2. &gt;Acarnania's foundation in Greek mythology was traditionally ascribed to Acarnan, son of Alcmaeon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Well, that says that the mythology was based off him, and you are GUARANTEED a different account from other people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 3. &gt;The mountains contained many wild beasts, and acquired fame in Greek mythology as the scene of the hunt for the Calydonian Boar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That means that a whole bunch of Artemis myths would have come from it, but that's just an inference. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 4. &gt;Pausanias says that 'Achaean' was the name of those Greeks originally inhabiting the Argolis and Laconia, because they were descended from the sons of the mythical Achaeus, Archander and Architeles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't know about the last two names, but Acheaus was a direct descendent from Promotheus. Maybe all the mythology about Promotheus comes from that place.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What you do, if you want all of them, is go through all of the sites that have anything to do with that, and keep on repeating what I just did, getting your results.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regions_of_ancient_Greece" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5748" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1314" RevisionGUID="be6ca037-480f-4dcc-aeba-434cce10b675" CreationDate="2016-01-09T02:41:31.493" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5749" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1315" RevisionGUID="ba848211-9b0b-42cf-aa4b-8be8095d11ba" CreationDate="2016-01-09T02:41:31.493" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5750" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1316" RevisionGUID="100e3b39-6779-43f7-802a-27440e709ad1" CreationDate="2016-01-09T02:44:04.820" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5751" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1317" RevisionGUID="e4893685-19eb-4351-a9c9-db3cbdff6c02" CreationDate="2016-01-09T02:44:04.820" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5752" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1318" RevisionGUID="41063753-681e-40da-917e-317920e1d1b4" CreationDate="2016-01-09T02:45:06.200" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5753" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1319" RevisionGUID="af8eb842-bdf9-477b-b878-3188c438cde1" CreationDate="2016-01-09T02:45:06.200" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5754" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1311" RevisionGUID="df6bfa2c-5868-4818-a802-d7dca6b9562e" CreationDate="2016-01-09T13:10:55.180" UserId="1076" Comment="edited title" Text="How did the Norse ship burial ritual originate from?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5755" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1311" RevisionGUID="50d296d5-7ed5-41df-91a4-7f13e4a23b70" CreationDate="2016-01-09T13:45:35.117" UserId="967" Comment="new tag......" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5756" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1311" RevisionGUID="50d296d5-7ed5-41df-91a4-7f13e4a23b70" CreationDate="2016-01-09T13:45:35.117" Comment="Proposed by 967 approved by 1076 edit id of 271" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5757" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1311" RevisionGUID="a65168db-6dc7-45cb-a636-0e9aeb71d0f9" CreationDate="2016-01-09T14:20:31.990" UserId="1076" Comment="edited body" Text="The Nose ship burial, according to Wikipedia:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A prominent tradition is that of the ship burial, where the deceased&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was laid in a boat, or a stone ship, and given grave offerings in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; accordance with his earthly status and profession, sometimes including&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sacrificed slaves. Afterwards, piles of stone and soil were usually&#xD;&#xA;&gt; laid on top of the remains in order to create a tumulus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Helpful Link](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_burial)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And in the movie, [How to Train Your Dragon 2][1], the burial of the deceased chief is a ship burial, where his son lights the pyre by shooting a fire-lit arrow; and then the rest of the people (7 of them in the scene) shoots the fire arrows at the pyre, and lighting it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, is the ritual done like how it is depicted, or some other way?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And how did this ritual originate from, and what does it depict/it's significance?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Train_Your_Dragon_2" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5758" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1320" RevisionGUID="144ff144-8f33-4478-a781-5cc21eee41cf" CreationDate="2016-01-09T18:39:42.120" UserId="201" Text="You are confusing [Helios][1], the original Titan Greek sun god, with [Phaethon][2], the son of Apollo (or maybe Helios) who insisted on driving the sun's chariot and couldn't control the horses so the earth burned and froze until Zeus killed him with a thunderbolt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaethon" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5759" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1211" RevisionGUID="d1659aa4-d678-4d84-99aa-00f5f4e51ba2" CreationDate="2016-01-09T18:51:45.710" UserId="967" Comment="Well, Apollo = Greek obviously" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|etymology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5760" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1211" RevisionGUID="d1659aa4-d678-4d84-99aa-00f5f4e51ba2" CreationDate="2016-01-09T18:51:45.710" Comment="Proposed by 967 approved by 183 edit id of 267" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5761" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="1308" RevisionGUID="08b625ea-b02c-4f0f-908a-04dbb4be68c7" CreationDate="2016-01-09T18:53:42.683" UserId="183" Comment="104" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:98,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;PythonMaster&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:967,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;bleh&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:183,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;HDE 226868&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="5762" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1321" RevisionGUID="3d8fec8c-26ca-41d7-9806-8788c424d995" CreationDate="2016-01-10T02:01:56.957" UserId="292" Text="According to the [Wikipedia entry][1] in anonymous's Google search link, the hippogriff was first mentioned by the ancient Roman poet Virgil, in his *Ecologues*. ([Book VIII][2]) He doesn't give the creature a name, just uses the example of gryphons mating with horses to comment on a human relationship that seems equally unlikely. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Roman emperor Augustus built a temple to Apollo decorated with a [hippogriff and dolphins][4]. So we know that 1st-century Romans would understand a reference to a half-horse, half-gryphon. That doesn't necessarily mean that the hippogriff was a symbol of Apollo, however. The temple was built after the battle of Actium, so the dolphins are a reference to the sea battle, and the hippogriff may be a reference to Egypt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Orlando Furioso* may well be the first to give it a name, and a good name too. In any case hippogriffs aren't mythological per se - they feature in no myths. They're imaginary animals, and can carry symbolic freight, such as this idea that their parents are mortal enemies and so they're a symbol of love. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The oldest source I could find for the idea that gryphons and horses are enemies is [Isidore of Seville][5], from the 7th century CE. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Apparently in medieval times the unlikeliness of horses and gryphons mating became a [proverb][3].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippogriff&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://sacred-texts.com/cla/virgil/ecl/ecl08.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.mythicalrealm.com/creatures/hippogriff.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://books.google.ca/books?id=icf1uZxZOj8C&amp;pg=PA222&amp;lpg=PA222&amp;dq=Hippogriff%20Apollo&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=eEWg_E_9xR&amp;sig=uM8hjoVvabL6uqWizwlKyQryfDw&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiVhsbHkJ7KAhVIwj4KHQgdCQg4ChDoAQg2MAk#v=onepage&amp;q=Hippogriff%20Apollo&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://bestiary.ca/beasts/beast151.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5763" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1322" RevisionGUID="c42f629c-9dc1-4e61-a893-e52be92baa1e" CreationDate="2016-01-10T02:14:23.853" UserId="292" Text="Phaethon was the [son of Helios][1], definitely not Apollo. For a long time his mother, Klymene, wouldn't tell him who his father was, but he finally talked her into it after being mocked by his friends.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He went to Helios and demanded his father acknowledge him in a public gesture. When Phaethon asked to drive the sun chariot, his father was stuck, and had to let him. And finally, Zeus had to kill him with a thunderbolt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In some versions, Phaethon became the [constellation Auriga][2], the Charioteer. Others ([Ovid in particular][3]) said that after his burned body fell into the river Eridanus, his sisters turned into poplar trees, weeping over the river and his grave.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Phaethon.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.ca/books?id=tyj8UUE968wC&amp;pg=PA41&amp;lpg=PA41&amp;dq=Auriga%20Phaethon&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=N50hD7L2WR&amp;sig=rDmFjbKLy8ne5woqfNa8i88wngI&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiFrfL6lJ7KAhULXD4KHYCbBg0Q6AEIQTAH#v=onepage&amp;q=Auriga%20Phaethon&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph2.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5764" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1323" RevisionGUID="2ab6150e-9e7a-4530-842e-93619c4dfc96" CreationDate="2016-01-10T08:53:02.300" UserId="1101" Text="Thanatos is one I know of. The Romans felt that trying to rename death wouldn't be very wise." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5765" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1305" RevisionGUID="03d00674-c106-43b6-b0bc-1db2c5ba3339" CreationDate="2016-01-10T14:17:30.227" UserId="1101" Comment="He's a male, not female." Text="The gods that I know-&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Bellona - Roman goddess of war&#xD;&#xA; - Lupa- Roman wolf goddess&#xD;&#xA; - Janus- 2 headed Roman god&#xD;&#xA; - Pomona- god of plentiful&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That's it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5766" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1305" RevisionGUID="03d00674-c106-43b6-b0bc-1db2c5ba3339" CreationDate="2016-01-10T14:17:30.227" Comment="Proposed by 1101 approved by 967 edit id of 272" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5767" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1324" RevisionGUID="bc040724-eac4-459f-b39f-649044daadab" CreationDate="2016-01-10T22:34:24.603" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5768" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1325" RevisionGUID="5f9b6fd0-4869-4956-80ee-d6b17fbee3c3" CreationDate="2016-01-10T22:34:24.603" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5769" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1305" RevisionGUID="4ea1b9cb-f248-4af9-ac9d-3dc3c5aa64f0" CreationDate="2016-01-10T23:45:21.290" UserId="967" Comment="added 1588 characters in body" Text="The gods that I know-&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;ROMAN&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Bellona - Roman goddess of war&#xD;&#xA; - Lupa- Roman wolf goddess&#xD;&#xA; - Janus- 2 headed Roman god&#xD;&#xA; - Pomona- god of plentiful&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;GREEK&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Achelois - One of the Greek moon goddesses.&#xD;&#xA; - Achelous - The Greek patron god of the Achelous river.&#xD;&#xA; - Alastor - Greek god of family feuds. (ikr)&#xD;&#xA; - Alcyone - One of the seven daughters of Atlas and Pleione. (greek. is she a goddess?)&#xD;&#xA; - Alectrona - Early Greek goddess of the sun.&#xD;&#xA; - Antheia - Goddess of gardens, flowers, swamps, and marshes.&#xD;&#xA; - Astraea - The Star Maiden - a goddess of justice, included in Virgo and Libra mythologies.&#xD;&#xA; - Até - Goddess of mischief.&#xD;&#xA; - Bia - The goddess of force.&#xD;&#xA; - Brizo - Protector of Mariners.&#xD;&#xA; - Celaeno - The name of a wife of Poseidon.&#xD;&#xA; - Dinlas - Guardian of the ancient city of Lamark, where wounded heroes could heal after battle.&#xD;&#xA; - Doris - A Sea Nymph, mother of the Nereids. (guess this counts as a goddess)&#xD;&#xA; - Eireisone - The deity who embodied the sacred ceremonial olive branch.&#xD;&#xA; - Iris - Goddess of rainbows.&#xD;&#xA; - Khione - The goddess of snow and daughter of the North Wind (Boreas).&#xD;&#xA; - Kratos - A god of strength and power.&#xD;&#xA; - Merope - One of the seven Pleiades, married to king Sisyphos. (goddess or not?)&#xD;&#xA; - Morpheus - God of dreams and sleep.&#xD;&#xA; - Plutus - God of wealth.&#xD;&#xA; - Pricus - The immortal father of sea-goats, made into the Capricorn constellation.&#xD;&#xA; - Styx - A Naiad who was the first to aid Zeus in the Titan war. (Not to be confused with the river Styx).&#xD;&#xA; - Zelus - The god of zeal, rivalry, and jealousy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you think the muses are gods then those too. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://www.gods-and-monsters.com/list-of-greek-gods-goddesses.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;P.S. I omitted some because they were Titans. &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5770" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1326" RevisionGUID="b0a7dccb-1520-4ff2-bf75-705d854e2150" CreationDate="2016-01-11T01:25:32.307" UserId="1103" Text="I hope my answer doesn't state the obvious... but I think you are correct in seeing this quote as the &quot;hero's journey&quot; in a general sense. He was bringing up the idea that the battles and journeys are ultimately about the self: understanding, accepting, conquering... and eventually seeing the divinity in knowing/accepting who we are. &#xA;&#xA;The reason this is so significant in Superman (and Batman) is because we like to make Superman (and all superheroes) as perfect gods fighting the evil &quot;out there&quot;, but the idea is that they, too must see that evil and divinity is not outside of them to be conquered. One of the things we like about these comics is that they are constantly struggling with their own humanness. Superman needed to realize that for him to become a true Superman his greatest fight is with himself not with these other enemies... So to wear the costume he needed to acknowledge this. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5771" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1311" RevisionGUID="b50797c4-a401-418d-9362-0b8fff00731d" CreationDate="2016-01-11T08:18:07.327" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 15 characters in body" Text="The Norse ship burial, [according to Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_burial):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A prominent tradition is that of the ship burial, where the deceased&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was laid in a boat, or a stone ship, and given grave offerings in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; accordance with his earthly status and profession, sometimes including&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sacrificed slaves. Afterwards, piles of stone and soil were usually&#xD;&#xA;&gt; laid on top of the remains in order to create a tumulus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And in the movie, [How to Train Your Dragon 2][1], the burial of the deceased chief is a ship burial, where his son lights the pyre by shooting a fire-lit arrow; and then the rest of the people (7 of them in the scene) shoots the fire arrows at the pyre, and lighting it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, is the ritual done like how it is depicted, or some other way?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And how did this ritual originate from, and what does it depict/it's significance?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Train_Your_Dragon_2" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5772" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="82" RevisionGUID="98653a12-63e2-4926-91cd-5ddb77e39ff4" CreationDate="2016-01-11T08:37:04.003" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|comparative|monomyth|joseph-campbell|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5773" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1299" RevisionGUID="d0f3ce37-8e78-4854-a138-fff9ee4efda9" CreationDate="2016-01-11T08:37:11.100" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|monomyth|joseph-campbell|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5774" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1060" RevisionGUID="da960de5-9a1e-4484-a766-e362c22e21c7" CreationDate="2016-01-11T08:38:26.200" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|comparative|history|monomyth|joseph-campbell|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5775" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1211" RevisionGUID="32aed718-2d73-4073-82bb-609c430445dd" CreationDate="2016-01-11T15:25:49.277" UserId="799" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|etymology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5776" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1327" RevisionGUID="cb18574d-7d76-4fac-9166-bdd04b0ade0b" CreationDate="2016-01-12T00:13:49.690" UserId="967" Text="In a *AHEM* [certain series][1] *AHEM*, it states that Theseus did not rely on the string of Princess Ariadne; rather, he used the vision of a mortal who could see through the Mist, a certain force that made mortals not able to see stuff that actually happened, like a monster would appear as a dog or something.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Well, is that authentic? Did he use Ariadne or the magic string?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/239/which-greek-deities-do-not-have-an-equivalent-in-the-roman-pantheon-and-vice-v/1323?noredirect=1#comment4183_1323" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5777" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1327" RevisionGUID="cb18574d-7d76-4fac-9166-bdd04b0ade0b" CreationDate="2016-01-12T00:13:49.690" UserId="967" Text="Did Theseus use the string or the Princess Ariadne to get out?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5778" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1327" RevisionGUID="cb18574d-7d76-4fac-9166-bdd04b0ade0b" CreationDate="2016-01-12T00:13:49.690" UserId="967" Text="|greek|theseus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5779" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1327" RevisionGUID="e4b4d196-d969-44b6-acdb-f15c8e901a40" CreationDate="2016-01-12T01:49:05.207" UserId="967" Comment="edited title" Text="Did Theseus use the string or Princess Ariadne to get out?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5780" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1324" RevisionGUID="0180c7dc-02ad-4554-8ea5-15614ca1bce9" CreationDate="2016-01-12T02:10:04.473" UserId="967" Comment="added 231 characters in body" Text="Titans include Oceanus, Hyperion, Coeus, Cronus, Crius and Iapetus,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And the females - the Titanesses - were Mnemosyne, Tethys, Theia, Phoebe, Rhea and Themis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not to be confused with Giants, who were born to destroy the gods." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5781" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1324" RevisionGUID="0180c7dc-02ad-4554-8ea5-15614ca1bce9" CreationDate="2016-01-12T02:10:04.473" Comment="Proposed by 967 approved by 62, 42 edit id of 273" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5782" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1328" RevisionGUID="ba4446bd-4c62-4f9e-b0cf-a204fe60a420" CreationDate="2016-01-12T02:33:07.823" UserId="42" Text="Genghis Khan (born Temüjin), is reputed to have been born with a blood clot in his right hand.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Yisügei-ba’atur plundered Temüjin-üge, Qoribuga, and other Tatars. On his return, Lady Hö’elün was pregnant. They were at Deli’ün-boldaq on the Onon&#xD;&#xA;when Chinggis Qahan was born. At the time of his birth, he held in his right hand a clot of blood as big as a knucklebone. Born at the time of the capture of the Tatar Temüjin-üge, they thought to name him Temüjin.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[The Secret History of the Mongols](https://jigjids.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/the_secret_history_of_the_mongols_the_life_and_times_of_chinggis_khan1.pdf), trans. Urgunge Onon, page 57&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've seen vague statements of this being an auspicious sign for his birth, others claiming it to be a sign of leadership, and others taking it for a sign of bloodlust.  The latter explanation I seem to see least commonly, and looks a bit like a westernized misunderstanding at first blush, but it does seem to be the interpretation taken later in The Secret History of the Mongols:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Accidentally issuing from my hot [womb],  &#xD;&#xA;this one was born holding a black clot of blood in his&#xD;&#xA;hand.  &#xD;&#xA;Like the qasar dog gnawing on its own afterbirth,  &#xD;&#xA;like a panther attacking on a rocky mountain,  &#xD;&#xA;like a lion unable to control its anger,  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[The Secret History of the Mongols](https://jigjids.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/the_secret_history_of_the_mongols_the_life_and_times_of_chinggis_khan1.pdf), trans. Urgunge Onon, page 69&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, are there other sources to attest to the meaning of being born holding a blood clot?  What was the traditional meaning of being born holding a blood clot?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5783" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1328" RevisionGUID="ba4446bd-4c62-4f9e-b0cf-a204fe60a420" CreationDate="2016-01-12T02:33:07.823" UserId="42" Text="What is signified Genghis Khan being born with a blood clot in his hand?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5784" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1328" RevisionGUID="ba4446bd-4c62-4f9e-b0cf-a204fe60a420" CreationDate="2016-01-12T02:33:07.823" UserId="42" Text="|mongolian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5785" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1328" RevisionGUID="935557ac-ad32-4ea6-9003-9d9bcc3d3527" CreationDate="2016-01-12T03:17:07.887" UserId="42" Comment="edited title" Text="What is signified by Genghis Khan being born with a blood clot in his hand?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5786" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1329" RevisionGUID="cdb2ac28-216a-4757-b2e6-68b6feb29ad8" CreationDate="2016-01-12T03:49:01.867" UserId="42" Text="The string or thread is certainly well supported in Greek and Roman sources.  (Emphasis mine, in all cases)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From Plutarch:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When he arrived at Crete, as most of the ancient historians as well as poets tell us, having a clue of *thread given him by Ariadne*, who had fallen in love with him, and being instructed by her how to use it so as to conduct him through the windings of the labyrinth, he escaped out of it and slew the Minotaur, and sailed back, taking along with him Ariadne and the young Athenian captives.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Theseus](http://classics.mit.edu/Plutarch/theseus.html) (19), Plutarch&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From Hyginus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;When Theseus came to Crete, Ariadne, Minos’ daughter, loved him so much that she betrayed her brother and saved the stranger, or she showed Theseus the way out of the Labyrinth. When Theseus had entered and killed the Minotaur, by *Ariadne’s advise he got out by unwinding the thread.* Ariadne, because she had been loyal to him, he took away, intending to marry her.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Fabulae](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusFabulae1.html) (42), Hyginus&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From Ovid:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;But the third tribute more successful prov'd,   &#xD;&#xA;Slew the foul monster, and the plague remov'd.   &#xD;&#xA;When Theseus, aided by the virgin's art,   &#xD;&#xA;Had *trac'd the guiding thread thro' ev'ry part*,   &#xD;&#xA;He took the gentle maid, that set him free,   &#xD;&#xA;And, bound for Dias, cut the briny sea.   &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Metamorphoses, Book 8](http://classics.mit.edu/Ovid/metam.8.eighth.html), Ovid&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am not aware of any sources that tell of Ariadne actually accompanying Theseus through the Labyrinth." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5787" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1328" RevisionGUID="0f759b32-ccc8-4dd9-a118-a206e4c06981" CreationDate="2016-01-12T10:01:12.477" UserId="42" Comment="added 11 characters in body" Text="Genghis Khan (born Temüjin), is reputed to have been born with a blood clot in his right hand.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Yisügei-ba’atur plundered Temüjin-üge, Qoribuga, and other Tatars. On his return, Lady Hö’elün was pregnant. They were at Deli’ün-boldaq on the Onon&#xD;&#xA;when Chinggis Qahan was born. At the time of his birth, he held in his right hand a clot of blood as big as a knucklebone. Born at the time of the capture of the Tatar Temüjin-üge, they thought to name him Temüjin.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[The Secret History of the Mongols](https://jigjids.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/the_secret_history_of_the_mongols_the_life_and_times_of_chinggis_khan1.pdf), trans. Urgunge Onon, page 57&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've seen vague statements of this being an auspicious sign for his birth, others claiming it to be a sign of leadership, and others taking it for a sign of bloodlust.  The latter explanation I seem to see least commonly, and looks a bit like a westernized misunderstanding at first blush, but it does seem to be the interpretation taken later in The Secret History of the Mongols:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Accidentally issuing from my hot [womb],  &#xD;&#xA;this one was born holding a black clot of blood in his&#xD;&#xA;hand.  &#xD;&#xA;Like the qasar dog gnawing on its own afterbirth,  &#xD;&#xA;like a panther attacking on a rocky mountain,  &#xD;&#xA;like a lion unable to control its anger,  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[The Secret History of the Mongols](https://jigjids.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/the_secret_history_of_the_mongols_the_life_and_times_of_chinggis_khan1.pdf), trans. Urgunge Onon, page 69&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, are there other sources to attest to the meaning of being born holding a blood clot?  What was the traditional meaning of it in the Mongolian traditions of the time?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5788" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1238" RevisionGUID="36e47381-0a92-4a19-a441-7ec598e8551f" CreationDate="2016-01-12T13:54:33.943" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5789" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1328" RevisionGUID="9ffd60c1-0a66-44c1-8346-9771a2b88e5f" CreationDate="2016-01-12T18:12:23.680" UserId="42" Comment="edited tags" Text="|untagged|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5790" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1330" RevisionGUID="d6138470-7c12-4eff-a49c-9deb6a547ea5" CreationDate="2016-01-12T21:10:39.760" UserId="967" Text="Well over here it has one:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Since the caduceus is associated with Hermes, conductor of the dead, &quot;purists&quot; think it has rather a negative connotation to be associated with medicine. Asclepius, the God of Healing, is the real traditional symbol.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I will edit this later." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5791" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1330" RevisionGUID="aaef31fd-1e7d-442c-a3a0-4b653772fc00" CreationDate="2016-01-12T22:07:01.000" UserId="967" Comment="added 28 characters in body" Text="Well over here it has one:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Since the caduceus is associated with Hermes, conductor of the dead, &quot;purists&quot; think it has rather a negative connotation to be associated with medicine. Asclepius, the God of Healing, is the real traditional symbol.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This means that this is a fake symbol, an impostor." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5792" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1331" RevisionGUID="5a57ee54-3e84-4f57-bce6-23e166a7169a" CreationDate="2016-01-13T02:20:37.473" UserId="967" Text="Dionysus talks to Hephaestus about getting thrown out of Olympus, a whole bunch of gods tell him to get back, blah blah [blah][1]...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was there any symbolism of Hepheastus riding a donkey?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Gallery/K7.1B.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5793" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1331" RevisionGUID="5a57ee54-3e84-4f57-bce6-23e166a7169a" CreationDate="2016-01-13T02:20:37.473" UserId="967" Text="Symbolism behind Hepheastus riding a donkey" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5794" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1331" RevisionGUID="5a57ee54-3e84-4f57-bce6-23e166a7169a" CreationDate="2016-01-13T02:20:37.473" UserId="967" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5796" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1333" RevisionGUID="b1a25b00-55fe-4bb6-84db-a2df8b08c404" CreationDate="2016-01-13T13:34:11.077" UserId="235" Text="Is there a mythology that is &quot;generally&quot; recognized as the oldest one recorded?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I recognize that everything 'historical' will have detractors. I'm looking for a consensus of historians that believe a specific mythology was the first recorded." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5797" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1333" RevisionGUID="b1a25b00-55fe-4bb6-84db-a2df8b08c404" CreationDate="2016-01-13T13:34:11.077" UserId="235" Text="What is the earliest recorded mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5798" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1333" RevisionGUID="b1a25b00-55fe-4bb6-84db-a2df8b08c404" CreationDate="2016-01-13T13:34:11.077" UserId="235" Text="|history|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5799" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1331" RevisionGUID="c3606792-71c4-486b-8b4f-14abf6e8b7a4" CreationDate="2016-01-13T14:16:58.000" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 87 characters in body" Text="When Hepheastus returns to Olympus after being thrown out by Hera, some authors/artists portray him as riding a donkey:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Source: [Theoi.org][2])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any reason why he rides a donkey?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Ypfdv.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Gallery/K7.1B.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5800" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="943" RevisionGUID="cf86c3f7-a283-4377-a040-64fbdfce2f6b" CreationDate="2016-01-13T14:40:13.593" UserId="57" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Yannis&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="5802" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1333" RevisionGUID="4b900cf4-57da-4a04-8213-06e84bc213d9" CreationDate="2016-01-13T16:54:50.020" UserId="235" Comment="Clarification and updated details." Text="Is there a **mythology** that is &quot;generally&quot; recognized as the oldest one recorded?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I recognize that everything 'historical' will have conflicting opinions. I'm looking for a consensus of historians that believe a **specific mythology** was the first recorded." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5803" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1321" RevisionGUID="6aa7430c-e471-460c-ad96-6d04507ac8c0" CreationDate="2016-01-13T21:18:02.427" UserId="292" Comment="tidying up references" Text="According to the [Wikipedia entry][1] in anonymous's Google search link, the hippogriff was first mentioned by the ancient Roman poet Virgil, in his *Ecologues*. ([Book VIII][2]) He doesn't give the creature a name, just uses the example of gryphons mating with horses to comment on a human relationship that seems equally unlikely. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Roman emperor Augustus built a temple to Apollo decorated with a [hippogriff and dolphins][3]. So we know that 1st-century Romans would understand a reference to a half-horse, half-gryphon. That doesn't necessarily mean that the hippogriff was a symbol of Apollo, however. The temple was built after the battle of Actium, so the dolphins are a reference to the sea battle, and the hippogriff may be a reference to Egypt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Orlando Furioso* may well be the first to give it a name, and a good name too. In any case hippogriffs aren't mythological per se - they feature in no myths. They're imaginary animals, and can carry symbolic freight, such as this idea that their parents are mortal enemies and so they're a symbol of love. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The oldest source I could find for the idea that gryphons and horses are enemies is [Isidore of Seville][4], from the 7th century CE. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Apparently in medieval times the unlikeliness of horses and gryphons mating became a [proverb][5].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippogriff&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://sacred-texts.com/cla/virgil/ecl/ecl08.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://books.google.ca/books?id=icf1uZxZOj8C&amp;pg=PA222&amp;lpg=PA222&amp;dq=Hippogriff%20Apollo&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=eEWg_E_9xR&amp;sig=uM8hjoVvabL6uqWizwlKyQryfDw&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiVhsbHkJ7KAhVIwj4KHQgdCQg4ChDoAQg2MAk#v=onepage&amp;q=Hippogriff%20Apollo&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://bestiary.ca/beasts/beast151.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [5]:http://www.mythicalrealm.com/creatures/hippogriff.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5804" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1331" RevisionGUID="204271b2-7d2a-4df6-8976-24800013da42" CreationDate="2016-01-13T22:47:42.973" UserId="967" Comment="added 29 characters in body" Text="When Hepheastus returns to Olympus after being thrown out by Hera, some authors/artists portray him as riding a donkey:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Source: [Theoi.org][2])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any reason why he rides a donkey? Why not a horse or a turtle?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Ypfdv.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Gallery/K7.1B.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5806" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1330" RevisionGUID="3f8b30f2-035b-4359-8beb-25fe216840c7" CreationDate="2016-01-14T00:39:46.180" UserId="1020" Comment="Last sentence incorrect" Text="Well over here it has one:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Since the caduceus is associated with Hermes, conductor of the dead, &quot;purists&quot; think it has rather a negative connotation to be associated with medicine. Asclepius, the God of Healing, is the real traditional symbol.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5807" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1330" RevisionGUID="3f8b30f2-035b-4359-8beb-25fe216840c7" CreationDate="2016-01-14T00:39:46.180" Comment="Proposed by 1020 approved by 967 edit id of 277" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5808" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1335" RevisionGUID="b1a627f7-abd0-4119-8243-6f830fc0e35d" CreationDate="2016-01-14T05:10:07.157" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="I really wish that you would define what you mean by &quot;mythology&quot; and &quot;recorded&quot;. The word &quot;mythology&quot; is one that has [several competing definitions][1], and it's not a word that is used frequently by academics. It would have really been nice if you had explained what definition you meant. Similarly, by &quot;recorded&quot; do you mean written down, or can paintings/art count? Not explaining these things makes it hard for me (and others) to give a good answer. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If by recorded you mean written down, and if by &quot;mythology&quot; you mean sacred narrative, then one of these two texts would probably fit the bill:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The &quot;Instructions  of  Suruppak&quot; and the Kesh temple hymn still represent&#xD;&#xA;unique cases, but there is no reason to assume that archaic  fragments of&#xD;&#xA;other Sumerian compositions known from the Old  Babylonian period will&#xD;&#xA;not one day be found. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Source][2])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You might also consider Paleolithic Cave Art, although there is considerable debate as to the function of the art (to put it another way, we don't know if the art was religious or decorative or etc. etc.). That might effect whether you would consider the art &quot;mythology&quot;. We also don't know whether the art is the recording of a story, which might also effect whether you would consider it &quot;mythology&quot;/sacred narrative.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([image taken from wikipedia][4])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://taxicrash.github.io/2015/01/04/Defining-Myth-Folklore-Legend/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/1359501&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Y1Xdw.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_painting" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5809" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="1333" RevisionGUID="3910453e-fe2c-48ec-a601-897ee1f9457e" CreationDate="2016-01-14T08:59:08.233" UserId="57" Comment="103" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:98,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;PythonMaster&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Yannis&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="5810" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1333" RevisionGUID="84f77233-64b5-41b6-9ba9-9c90289fb89c" CreationDate="2016-01-14T13:34:08.590" UserId="235" Comment="Further Clarification because I'm using difficult words like mythology and recorded... smh" Text="Is there a **mythology** ([by mythology I mean a system of beliefs that explain a peoples culture, nature, etc.][1]) that is &quot;generally&quot; recognized as the oldest one recorded? (by recorded I mean we have documentation, i.e., cave wall drawings, tomes, inscriptions on bone, etc.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I recognize that everything 'historical' will have conflicting opinions. I'm looking for a consensus of historians that believe a **specific mythology** was the first recorded.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Further Clarification:**&#xD;&#xA;I would like to reference a specific mythology (i.e., a set of beliefs that explain a peoples culture, nature, etc.) as the first mythology created by humans. What is the consensus as to what the first mythology might be?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://taxicrash.github.io/2015/01/04/Defining-Myth-Folklore-Legend/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5811" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1333" RevisionGUID="84f77233-64b5-41b6-9ba9-9c90289fb89c" CreationDate="2016-01-14T13:34:08.590" UserId="235" Comment="Further Clarification because I'm using difficult words like mythology and recorded... smh" Text="What is the consensus for the earliest recorded mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5812" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1333" RevisionGUID="7f00741e-3272-4ff4-9876-3e087f2d3aae" CreationDate="2016-01-14T13:39:24.630" UserId="235" Comment="Even Further Clarification because I'm using difficult words like mythology and recorded... smh" Text="Is there a **mythology** ([by mythology I mean a system of beliefs that explain a peoples culture, nature, etc.][1]) that is &quot;generally&quot; recognized as the oldest one recorded? ([by recorded I mean we have documentation, i.e., cave wall drawings, tomes, inscriptions on bone, etc.][2])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I recognize that everything 'historical' will have conflicting opinions. I'm looking for a consensus of historians that believe a **specific mythology** was the first recorded.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Further Clarification:**&#xD;&#xA;I would like to reference a specific mythology (i.e., a set of beliefs that explain a peoples culture, nature, etc.) as the first mythology created by humans. What is the consensus as to what the first mythology might be?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://taxicrash.github.io/2015/01/04/Defining-Myth-Folklore-Legend/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recorded_history" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5814" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1336" RevisionGUID="84561d3a-e6c4-45c6-ad4f-0e0318c94784" CreationDate="2016-01-14T14:34:31.420" UserId="1058" Text="According to Wikipedia (though I cannot confirm), [it is a mule.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A donkey would actually make *more* sense, as Dionysus was the one who helped Hephaestus return to Olympia after his fall ([source][2]), and **the donkey is associated with Dionysus** and his ways, according to *The Book of Symbols* (316).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hephaestus#cite_ref-27&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/HephaistosMyths.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5815" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1337" RevisionGUID="f39afa9d-8720-40e3-a92c-b7dcbdd48dbc" CreationDate="2016-01-14T16:41:07.453" UserId="1076" Text="There are a lot of mythological references, which states that the crow of a rooster is fatal to a [Basilisk][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From [CHAPTER XXXVI of the Bulfinch's mythology][2], **MODERN MONSTERS- THE PHOENIX- BASILISK- UNICORN-SALAMANDER.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There is an old saying that “everything has its enemy” – and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cockatrice quailed before the weasel. The basilisk might look daggers,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the weasel cared not, but advanced boldly to the conflict. When&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bitten, the weasel retired for a moment to eat some rue, which was the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; only plant the basilisks could not wither, returned with renewed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; strength and soundness to the charge, and never left the enemy till he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was stretched dead on the plain. **The monster, too, as if conscious of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the irregular way in which he came into the world, was supposed to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; have a great antipathy to a cock; and well he might, for as soon as he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; heard the cock crow he expired.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And from the [Aelian's characteristics of animals][3] (mythology from the 2nd century):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; With its crowing a cock scares a lion and is fatal to a basilisk.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In addition, there are a lot of instances where this is mentioned in the [Wikipedia article][1] too:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From Tales of Canterbury:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; basilisks can be killed by hearing the crow of a rooster&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the Cantabrian mythology:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The weasel is the only animal that can face and even attack it. It can&#xD;&#xA;&gt; only be killed with the crowing of a rooster, so, until very recent&#xD;&#xA;&gt; times, travelers were carrying a rooster when they ventured into areas&#xD;&#xA;&gt; where it was said that the basilisks lived&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**So, why is it that a rooster can fell such a monstrous creature?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any reason behind the formulation or origin of this?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;For people who are unaware of what a basilisk looks like, here is a sample picture from Harry Potter (and that's just the head):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilisk&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/bulf/bulf35.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.loebclassics.com/view/aelian-characteristics_animals/1958/pb_LCL446.351.xml?result=7&amp;rskey=v85Lg9&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/SBO5R.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5816" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1337" RevisionGUID="f39afa9d-8720-40e3-a92c-b7dcbdd48dbc" CreationDate="2016-01-14T16:41:07.453" UserId="1076" Text="Why is the crow of a rooster fatal to a basilisk?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5817" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1337" RevisionGUID="f39afa9d-8720-40e3-a92c-b7dcbdd48dbc" CreationDate="2016-01-14T16:41:07.453" UserId="1076" Text="|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5818" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1337" RevisionGUID="11f14a16-8d40-44cc-bb54-39978a6ef50f" CreationDate="2016-01-14T16:49:09.110" UserId="1076" Comment="added 78 characters in body" Text="There are a lot of mythological references, which states that the crow of a rooster is fatal to a [Basilisk][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From [CHAPTER XXXVI of the Bulfinch's mythology][2], **MODERN MONSTERS- THE PHOENIX- BASILISK- UNICORN-SALAMANDER.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There is an old saying that “everything has its enemy” – and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cockatrice quailed before the weasel. The basilisk might look daggers,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the weasel cared not, but advanced boldly to the conflict. When&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bitten, the weasel retired for a moment to eat some rue, which was the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; only plant the basilisks could not wither, returned with renewed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; strength and soundness to the charge, and never left the enemy till he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was stretched dead on the plain. **The monster, too, as if conscious of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the irregular way in which he came into the world, was supposed to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; have a great antipathy to a cock; and well he might, for as soon as he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; heard the cock crow he expired.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And from the [Aelian's characteristics of animals][3] (mythology from the 2nd century):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; With its crowing a cock scares a lion and is fatal to a basilisk.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In addition, there are a lot of instances where this is mentioned in the [Wikipedia article][1] too:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From Tales of Canterbury:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; basilisks can be killed by hearing the crow of a rooster&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the Cantabrian mythology:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The weasel is the only animal that can face and even attack it. It can&#xD;&#xA;&gt; only be killed with the crowing of a rooster, so, until very recent&#xD;&#xA;&gt; times, travelers were carrying a rooster when they ventured into areas&#xD;&#xA;&gt; where it was said that the basilisks lived&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**So, why is it that a rooster can fell such a monstrous creature?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any reason behind the formulation or origin of this?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;For people who are unaware of what a basilisk looks like, here is a sample picture from Harry Potter (and that's just the head):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;[Related post but not familiar](http://scifi.stackexchange.com/q/114769/53012)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilisk&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/bulf/bulf35.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.loebclassics.com/view/aelian-characteristics_animals/1958/pb_LCL446.351.xml?result=7&amp;rskey=v85Lg9&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/SBO5R.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5819" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1338" RevisionGUID="7945b717-08f0-41ae-9eb2-36bfb639d712" CreationDate="2016-01-14T19:31:22.350" UserId="42" Text="Pliny the Elder describes the Basilisk like this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [The basilisk] is produced in the province of Cyrene, being not more than twelve fingers in length. It has a white spot on the head, strongly resembling a sort of a diadem. When it hisses, all the other serpents fly from it: and it does not advance its body, like the others, by a succession of folds, but moves along upright and erect upon the middle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lives in Northern Africa, venomous, able to envenom from a distance (ie. spitting), able to maintain an upright posture while moving (see image).  The length in Pliny's account is quite a bit off for an adult, and the white marking would seem more consistent with a Spectacled Cobra, but many believe that this sounds quite a bit like an Egyptian Cobra:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![upright posture][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Evolution of the Basilisk](http://www.jstor.org/stable/642817?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents) by R. McN. Alexander draws this conclusion, and provides a great deal more detail (including some possible reasons for the white crown mark detail).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as the source of roosters as deadly to the Basilisk, the above paper, unfortunately, doesn't address it, and I can't find much that does.  However, many birds are known to deter or even eat snakes.  Roosters have been known to kill and eat snakes at times, [guineafowl](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guineafowl) are galliformes (that is, closely related to chickens and turkeys) endemic to Africa and are noted for deterring snakes, and the [ibis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_sacred_ibis) was a sacred bird in Egypt which also eats snakes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/wWa4M.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5820" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1337" RevisionGUID="268f91cf-8695-477b-b0e6-8d0a0a42f8d2" CreationDate="2016-01-14T21:16:49.337" UserId="967" Comment="Tag thing dawny wanted" Text="|mythical-creatures|basilisk|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5821" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1337" RevisionGUID="268f91cf-8695-477b-b0e6-8d0a0a42f8d2" CreationDate="2016-01-14T21:16:49.337" Comment="Proposed by 967 approved by 183 edit id of 278" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5822" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1335" RevisionGUID="e2a12520-1f36-437b-8e77-aae16d42b045" CreationDate="2016-01-14T23:08:39.537" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 616 characters in body" Text="I really wish that you would define what you mean by &quot;mythology&quot; and &quot;recorded&quot;. The word &quot;mythology&quot; is one that has [several competing definitions][1], and it's not a word that is used frequently by academics. It would have really been nice if you had explained what definition you meant. Similarly, by &quot;recorded&quot; do you mean written down, or can paintings/art count? Not explaining these things makes it hard for me (and others) to give a good answer. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If by recorded you mean written down, and if by &quot;mythology&quot; you mean sacred narrative, then one of these two texts would probably fit the bill:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The &quot;Instructions  of  Suruppak&quot; and the Kesh temple hymn still represent&#xD;&#xA;unique cases, but there is no reason to assume that archaic  fragments of&#xD;&#xA;other Sumerian compositions known from the Old  Babylonian period will&#xD;&#xA;not one day be found. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Source][2])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You might also consider Paleolithic Cave Art, although there is considerable debate as to the function of the art (to put it another way, we don't know if the art was religious or decorative or etc. etc.). That might effect whether you would consider the art &quot;mythology&quot;. We also don't know whether the art is the recording of a story, which might also effect whether you would consider it &quot;mythology&quot;/sacred narrative.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([image taken from wikipedia][4])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;UPDATE: in the question text mythology was defined as a &quot;system of beliefs.&quot; That's not a definition of mythology that I've seen anybody use (again, [if you would like to read accepted definitions of mythology you should take a look at my blog post on the subject][1]); a better word for &quot;system of beliefs&quot; would be &quot;religion. So I'm going to assume that this question asks &quot;what is the oldest recorded religion?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is considerable debate over whether Paleolithic Cave Art is religious in nature. But assuming it is religious, then it would quality as the oldest &quot;recorded&quot; evidence of religion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://taxicrash.github.io/2015/01/04/Defining-Myth-Folklore-Legend/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/1359501&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Y1Xdw.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_painting" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5824" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1339" RevisionGUID="a79b5058-ac1f-449b-94ca-9377d94651a2" CreationDate="2016-01-15T05:42:22.907" UserId="1076" Text="**Soul Vampires** can be the closest one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, consider the Dementors from Harry Potter, according to the [Potter wiki][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dementors feed upon human happiness, and thus cause depression and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; despair to anyone near them. They can also consume a person's soul,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; leaving their victims in a permanent vegetative state, and thus are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; often referred to as &quot;soul-sucking fiends&quot;. They are known to leave a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; person as an 'empty-shell'.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, let's see how they are derived from mythology to fit into HP:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They are among the folkloric psychic vampires, so they definitely&#xD;&#xA;&gt; belong to a type/class of vampires.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, they can be labelled **soul vampires** or **psychic vampires**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A picture from Harry Potter which shows how the soul sucking is done:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Dementor&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ixcyY.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5825" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1339" RevisionGUID="c1013ed4-c3b4-40bf-82f7-c93565470045" CreationDate="2016-01-15T05:48:02.747" UserId="1076" Comment="added 87 characters in body" Text="**Soul Vampires** can be the closest one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, consider the Dementors from Harry Potter, according to the [Potter wiki][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dementors feed upon human happiness, and thus cause depression and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; despair to anyone near them. They can also consume a person's soul,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; leaving their victims in a permanent vegetative state, and thus are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; often referred to as &quot;soul-sucking fiends&quot;. They are known to leave a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; person as an 'empty-shell'.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, let's see how they are derived [from mythology][2] to fit into HP:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They are among the folkloric psychic vampires, so they definitely&#xD;&#xA;&gt; belong to a type/class of vampires.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, they can be labelled **soul vampires** or **psychic vampires**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A picture from Harry Potter which shows how the soul sucking is done:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Dementor&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.forcesofgeek.com/2011/07/footprints-of-monsters-dementors.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ixcyY.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5828" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1333" RevisionGUID="8e37446d-83fe-4dfd-a181-607875603eaf" CreationDate="2016-01-15T18:36:09.797" UserId="235" Comment="Dissertation on why this board doesn't appear to know what they want in running a Mythology board on StackExchange." Text="&gt; First off. I think it's ridiculous that this &quot;**Mythology**&quot; StackExchange board puts a question on hold because they at FIRST didn't know what I meant by Mythology... and then when I presented a definition they balked at my definition or at my source for where I got the definition. If this board is going to be about Mythology, it would probably **GREATLY** help those coming here if the word was clearly defined for all to see and know. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Secondly, here is my question...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a **mythology** that is &quot;generally&quot; recognized as the oldest one recorded? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I recognize that everything 'historical' will have conflicting opinions. I'm looking for a consensus of historians that believe a **specific mythology** was the first recorded.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I didn't realize I would need to write a dissertation to have such a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; simple request understood. But here goes...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Clarification of the word &quot;Mythology&quot;:**&#xD;&#xA;I would like to reference a specific mythology (i.e., a set of beliefs that explain a peoples culture, nature, etc.) as the first mythology created by humans. What is the consensus as to what the first mythology might be?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[By using the word &quot;mythology&quot; above, I mean a system of beliefs that explain a peoples culture, nature, etc.][2] If you read the article I reference, the author presents several points that outline that the word Mythology means different things to different people and is clarified in his opening statement &quot;Do words like mythology, folklore, and legend have clear definitions? Yes they do: in fact, they have multiple definitions depending on who you ask.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He goes on to say, [&quot;And we have myths, which are told as a sacred truth, and which are set in a sort of prototype of our world.&quot;][3] The author presents us with (to use his words) &quot;an oversimplified&quot; explanation of the perceived differences between Myth, and Folklore or Legend. There isn't a clear definition here, nor do I claim to expect one. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But on a &quot;Mythology&quot; StackExchange I would expect there to EITHER BE a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Terms&quot; page (or something similar) that outlines WHAT Mythology is to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; avoid lengthy discussions on definition that should already be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; clarified or... there should be no issue when any user presents any&#xD;&#xA;&gt; definition. It needs to be one way or the other. So when I make the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; statement that mythology is a &quot;system of beliefs that explain a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; peoples culture, nature, etc.&quot; is this board doesn't have a clearly&#xD;&#xA;&gt; defined definition then I'm confused as all get-out as to the wide&#xD;&#xA;&gt; range of outcry when I present a definition as I understand it. - End&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Rant on Outcry over my definition of Mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am not interested in the first stories that man told... I am not interested in the first philosophical conjectures on the nature of reality...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am trying to find out what is considered to be mankind's first &quot;Mythology&quot; as the word pertains to peoples beliefs about the nature of reality. (or... what is considered the first mythological stories shared by mankind? )&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Clarification of the phrase &quot;Recorded History&quot;:**&#xD;&#xA;([by recorded I mean we have documentation, i.e., cave wall drawings, tomes, inscriptions on bone, etc.][1]) Mankind has passed down data (information) for eons. Some of it is written in our genes, some is verbally handed down from parent to child, and some is a documented communication. Some people passed their data/stories/knowledge/MYTHS by writing on cave walls, stone tablets, bone inscriptions, papers, books, paintings, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am not interested in being presented with the recognized first mythology that was telepathically passed from aliens... I am not interested in being presented with the recognized first mythology that someone was told in a dream...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am trying to find out what mythology is recognized as being humanity's first mythology based on &quot;**DOCUMENTED COMMUNICATION**.&quot; ( or... what does history claim to be the first mythology? )&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I REALLY feel like being put on hold because I didn't clarify what I meant when I used the word &quot;mythology&quot; (on a Mythology StackExchange... go figure) and because I didn't clarify what I meant by &quot;recorded history&quot; were some sort of elitist semantics meant to get rid of those not creating questions up to a certain calibre of writing. Which makes no sense. Especially as the META for this board has a leading question asking how to generate more activity on this board.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tip for those running this board... shutting down questions because you don't like them isn't it. Presenting proper information to questioners to better format their questions to fit the goal of the board is.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I asked a question that used the word &quot;mythology&quot; and phrase &quot;recorded history&quot; and my question is locked down. It Makes. No. Sense.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recorded_history&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://taxicrash.github.io/2015/01/04/Defining-Myth-Folklore-Legend/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://taxicrash.github.io/2015/01/04/Defining-Myth-Folklore-Legend/#folklore-myth-and-legend-as-genres-of-folklore" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5829" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1333" RevisionGUID="8e37446d-83fe-4dfd-a181-607875603eaf" CreationDate="2016-01-15T18:36:09.797" UserId="235" Comment="Dissertation on why this board doesn't appear to know what they want in running a Mythology board on StackExchange." Text="|myth-identification|history|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5830" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1333" RevisionGUID="c12104a4-9f01-4648-ac99-728d818e81cd" CreationDate="2016-01-15T19:01:13.873" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="deleted 4535 characters in body; edited title" Text="Let me begin this answer by defining two words. **The definition of these two words might not be the definition used by scholars**, but they are the definitions that I would like to use for the purposes of this answer&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;+ Religion: &quot;a set of beliefs that explain a peoples culture, nature, etc.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;+ Recorded: by recorded I mean we have documentation, i.e., cave wall drawings, tomes, inscriptions on bone, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question is: what is the earliest recorded example of religion among humans." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5831" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1333" RevisionGUID="c12104a4-9f01-4648-ac99-728d818e81cd" CreationDate="2016-01-15T19:01:13.873" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="deleted 4535 characters in body; edited title" Text="What is the earliest recorded example of religion" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5832" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1335" RevisionGUID="79a6330b-5c7b-4cc5-8b2a-267db219e1d3" CreationDate="2016-01-15T19:04:48.590" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="deleted 463 characters in body" Text="UPDATE: in the question text mythology was defined as a &quot;system of beliefs.&quot; That's not a definition of mythology that I've seen anybody use ([if you would like to read accepted definitions of mythology you should take a look at my blog post on the subject][1]); a better word for &quot;system of beliefs&quot; would be &quot;religion. So I'm going to assume that this question asks &quot;what is the oldest recorded religion?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is considerable debate over whether Paleolithic Cave Art is religious in nature. But assuming it is religious, then it would quality as the oldest &quot;recorded&quot; evidence of religion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([image taken from wikipedia][4])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If by recorded you mean written down, and if by &quot;mythology&quot; you mean sacred narrative, then one of these two texts would probably fit the bill:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The &quot;Instructions  of  Suruppak&quot; and the Kesh temple hymn still represent&#xD;&#xA;unique cases, but there is no reason to assume that archaic  fragments of&#xD;&#xA;other Sumerian compositions known from the Old  Babylonian period will&#xD;&#xA;not one day be found. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Source][2])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You might also consider Paleolithic Cave Art, although there is considerable debate as to the function of the art (to put it another way, we don't know if the art was religious or decorative or etc. etc.). That might effect whether you would consider the art &quot;mythology&quot;. We also don't know whether the art is the recording of a story, which might also effect whether you would consider it &quot;mythology&quot;/sacred narrative.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://taxicrash.github.io/2015/01/04/Defining-Myth-Folklore-Legend/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/1359501&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Y1Xdw.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_painting" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5833" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1341" RevisionGUID="81707061-0555-4a51-9833-75ea304c2aa2" CreationDate="2016-01-15T20:31:12.180" UserId="42" Text="While poking around at this question:  http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1331/symbolism-behind-hepheastus-riding-a-donkey&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A common detail in the art struck me, and as a result, I learned a cool new word:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Ithyphallic: having an erect penis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the fellows accompanying Hephaestus are Satyrs, which are almost always depicted ithyphallically, no mystery there.  But why (if you'll pardon the mild crudeness) is the mule packinging so much wood?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even when his retinue are portrayed more modestly, the horse's phallus still seems to often be erect and prominent (examples 3, 4 and 5).  The first example below is the [François Vase](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Vase), and it portrays many horses, and Hephaestus's is the only one which is ithyphallic, as far as I can tell.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;1 - From the [François Vase](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Vase)  &#xD;&#xA;[![Hephaestus's return, François Vase][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;2 -  &#xD;&#xA;[![!\[Another example][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;3 -  &#xD;&#xA;[![!\[enter image description here][3]][3]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;4 -  &#xD;&#xA;[![!\[enter image description here][4]][4]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;5 -  &#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][5]][5]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems like this is a pretty standard element of the depiction of this story.  So why is it typical for Hephaestus's mule to have an erect phallus?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/W327g.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/oePUI.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/wAXpy.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ITEga.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/S6FQW.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5834" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1341" RevisionGUID="81707061-0555-4a51-9833-75ea304c2aa2" CreationDate="2016-01-15T20:31:12.180" UserId="42" Text="Why is Haephestus's mule ithyphallic" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5835" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1341" RevisionGUID="81707061-0555-4a51-9833-75ea304c2aa2" CreationDate="2016-01-15T20:31:12.180" UserId="42" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5837" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1341" RevisionGUID="dc107c53-b7db-424f-ac49-f597afd431a4" CreationDate="2016-01-15T23:49:41.580" UserId="42" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body" Text="While poking around at this question:  http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1331/symbolism-behind-hepheastus-riding-a-donkey&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A common detail in the art struck me, and as a result, I learned a cool new word:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Ithyphallic: having an erect penis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the fellows accompanying Hephaestus are Satyrs, which are almost always depicted ithyphallically, no mystery there.  But why (if you'll pardon the mild crudeness) is the mule packing so much wood?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even when his retinue are portrayed more modestly, the horse's phallus still seems to often be erect and prominent (examples 3, 4 and 5).  The first example below is the [François Vase](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Vase), and it portrays many horses, and Hephaestus's is the only one which is ithyphallic, as far as I can tell.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;1 - From the [François Vase](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Vase)  &#xD;&#xA;[![Hephaestus's return, François Vase][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;2 -  &#xD;&#xA;[![!\[Another example][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;3 -  &#xD;&#xA;[![!\[enter image description here][3]][3]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;4 -  &#xD;&#xA;[![!\[enter image description here][4]][4]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;5 -  &#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][5]][5]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems like this is a pretty standard element of the depiction of this story.  So why is it typical for Hephaestus's mule to have an erect phallus?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/W327g.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/oePUI.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/wAXpy.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ITEga.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/S6FQW.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5838" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1342" RevisionGUID="c6d727fd-69d1-47c4-8f86-fbe5be8aea9f" CreationDate="2016-01-16T01:01:12.497" UserId="292" Text=" &#xD;&#xA;It seems, according to [Theoi.com][1], that Hephaestus' animal was a donkey, but nothing on why. My own thought is that it, like Hephaestus, was a worker rather than a warrior. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He may have ridden it on his return to Olympus to show that he came in peace, as [riding a donkey][2] could symbolize peaceful intent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Summary/Hephaistos.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.gotquestions.org/king-ride-donkey.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5839" PostHistoryTypeId="11" PostId="1333" RevisionGUID="68cfc348-6300-46b1-8068-a7b507e671e2" CreationDate="2016-01-16T19:47:20.697" UserId="183" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:42,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;femtoRgon&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:62,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Hamlet&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:967,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;bleh&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:111,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;plannapus&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:183,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;HDE 226868&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="5840" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1343" RevisionGUID="5496c6e4-73ed-45b0-9962-e39354ece14d" CreationDate="2016-01-17T00:42:39.463" UserId="1122" Text="What is the difference between a cockatrice and a basilisk? I have heard both described as a chicken's egg hatched under a toad, and that both are snake-like animals, and that both will turn you to stone if you look at them. Are they the same thing?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5841" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1343" RevisionGUID="5496c6e4-73ed-45b0-9962-e39354ece14d" CreationDate="2016-01-17T00:42:39.463" UserId="1122" Text="Difference between cockatrice and basilisk" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5842" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1343" RevisionGUID="5496c6e4-73ed-45b0-9962-e39354ece14d" CreationDate="2016-01-17T00:42:39.463" UserId="1122" Text="|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5844" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1344" RevisionGUID="4e580045-aaa9-4da6-b84a-25ea63cb5b04" CreationDate="2016-01-17T04:13:17.237" UserId="1076" Text="My answer might not completely answer your question, but atleast would partially answer it. Some differences are as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. The cockatrice is dragon-like creature, or in short it is a dragon. However, the basilisk is a pure serpent, an have nothing to do with the dragon species.&#xD;&#xA; 2. The cockatrice can fly with the wings it has on it's back. But, a basilisk can't. The main reason being the point above.&#xD;&#xA; 3. **Killing abilities:** The cockatrice can kill it's enemy by breathing fire and touching them. The basilisk, however has only two modes. It is by either through it's death stare or like a regular snake attack (through it's poisoned fangs.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And the main difference is the way it is born:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Your interpretation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I have heard both described as a chicken's egg hatched under a toad&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;is wrong. This is how both of them are born:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The basilisk is hatched by a cockerel from the egg of a serpent or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; toad.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The cockatrice is hatched from a cockerel's &quot;egg&quot; incubated by a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; serpent or toad." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5848" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1344" RevisionGUID="d77c8214-068a-469d-a4d5-15dac96d6d88" CreationDate="2016-01-17T15:40:42.023" UserId="1076" Comment="added 245 characters in body" Text="My answer might not completely answer your question, but atleast would partially answer it. Some differences are as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. The cockatrice is dragon-like creature, or in short it is a dragon. However, the basilisk is a pure serpent, an have nothing to do with the dragon species.&#xD;&#xA; 2. The cockatrice can fly with the wings it has on it's back. But, a basilisk can't. The main reason being the point above.&#xD;&#xA; 3. **Killing abilities:** The cockatrice can kill it's enemy by breathing fire and touching them. The basilisk, however has only two modes. It is by either through it's death stare or like a regular snake attack (through it's poisoned fangs.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And the main difference is the way it is born:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Your interpretation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I have heard both described as a chicken's egg hatched under a toad&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;is wrong. This is how both of them are born:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The basilisk is hatched by a cockerel from the egg of a serpent or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; toad.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The cockatrice is hatched from a cockerel's &quot;egg&quot; incubated by a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; serpent or toad.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;References: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Wikipedia page on Basilisk][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Wikipedia page on Cockatrice][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Isodore of Seville (About the Basilisk)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilisk&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockatrice" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5849" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1346" RevisionGUID="843304e5-6106-4574-8ecf-dd7c3f052c34" CreationDate="2016-01-18T02:44:18.760" UserId="967" Text="The blood of Ouranos gave birth to-&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Aphrodite&#xD;&#xA; - three seasons&#xD;&#xA; - three Erinyes&#xD;&#xA; - the Gigantes&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And that is quite a list for someone to give birth to when he is *dead*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is this just a given? A powerful god will have powerful blood? Something having to do with mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5850" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1346" RevisionGUID="843304e5-6106-4574-8ecf-dd7c3f052c34" CreationDate="2016-01-18T02:44:18.760" UserId="967" Text="Why did the blood of Ouranos so powerful?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5851" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1346" RevisionGUID="843304e5-6106-4574-8ecf-dd7c3f052c34" CreationDate="2016-01-18T02:44:18.760" UserId="967" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5852" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1346" RevisionGUID="c89e375b-d754-41ec-b0ab-23708a877bb5" CreationDate="2016-01-18T06:18:11.483" UserId="398" Comment="edited title" Text="Why was the blood of Ouranos so powerful?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5853" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1347" RevisionGUID="854d2552-9962-4c6e-8be0-0f89a91bad63" CreationDate="2016-01-18T06:29:07.560" UserId="398" Text="Ouranos was not just any old god. He was—as his name makes clear—the total embodiment of the sky, *ouranos* the noun is what you see when you look up at the sky quite literally. It makes sense then that with Gaia (*gaia* means earth) many beings would come forth.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Also, take a look at what exactly is being produced. Hesiod says that the blood created the Seasons, Erinyes, and the Giants, but not Aphrodite, who instead was created when his testicles fell into the sea. That's just Hesiod playing with names, since the Greek word for sea foam was [aphros](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Aphrodite). The seasons, on the other hand, are naturally created in combination with powers of the sky (or so it would seem to pre-science man) and the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Erinyes' play a role in &quot;avenging the natural order&quot;[1](http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Erinyes.html), which included tormenting those who commit parricide (i.e. killing your father). It makes then to locate their origin in the very first act of a son cutting down a father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, it should be noted well that Ouranos is not dead. Ouranos is an immortal, and no Greek god can die.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, there are parallels in other traditions. One that comes to mind is the body of [Kagutsuchi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kagu-tsuchi), who came out of his mother in a ball of fire, burning her to death. As punishment, the *kami* (Japanese gods) cut up his body into eight pieces: &#xD;&#xA;&gt; which became eight volcanoes. The blood that dripped off Izanagi's sword created a number of deities, including the sea god Watatsumi and rain god Kuraokami.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kagu-tsuchi" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5854" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1344" RevisionGUID="6b99b08b-c76c-4a10-98e9-58c6fb9268db" CreationDate="2016-01-18T07:16:39.773" UserId="1076" Comment="added 797 characters in body" Text="My answer might not completely answer your question, but atleast would partially answer it. Some differences are as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. The cockatrice is dragon-like creature, or in short it is a dragon. However, the basilisk is a pure serpent, an have nothing to do with the dragon species.&#xD;&#xA; 2. The cockatrice can fly with the wings it has on it's back. But, a basilisk can't. The main reason being the point above.&#xD;&#xA; 3. **Killing abilities:** The cockatrice can kill it's enemy by breathing fire and touching them. The basilisk, however has only two modes. It is by either through it's death stare or like a regular snake attack (through it's poisoned fangs.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And the main difference is the way it is born:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Your interpretation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I have heard both described as a chicken's egg hatched under a toad&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;is wrong. This is how both of them are born:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The basilisk is hatched by a cockerel from the egg of a serpent or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; toad.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The cockatrice is hatched from a cockerel's &quot;egg&quot; incubated by a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; serpent or toad.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sometimes, both of them are also considered as same. For instance, in this article from the [Bullfinch's mythology][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;CHAPTER XXXVI.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;MODERN MONSTERS- THE PHOENIX- BASILISK- UNICORN -SALAMANDER states&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There is an old saying that “everything has its enemy” – and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cockatrice quailed before the weasel. The basilisk might look daggers,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the weasel cared not, but advanced boldly to the conflict. When&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bitten, the weasel retired for a moment to eat some rue, which was the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; only plant the basilisks could not wither, returned with renewed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; strength and soundness to the charge, and never left the enemy till he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was stretched dead on the plain. The monster, too, as if conscious of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the irregular way in which he came into the world, was supposed to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; have a great antipathy to a cock; and well he might, for as soon as he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; heard the cock crow he expired.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;References: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Wikipedia page on Basilisk][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Wikipedia page on Cockatrice][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Isodore of Seville (About the Basilisk)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/bulf/bulf35.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilisk&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockatrice" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5855" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1348" RevisionGUID="efb1a42d-0c4e-4812-9c27-805a113ed764" CreationDate="2016-01-18T16:20:18.267" UserId="430" Text="The scene depicted in these vases is &quot;the return of Hephaestus&quot;, where after refusing to return to Olympus, Dionysus gets Hephaestus drunk puts him on a mule and carries him to Olympus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The paintings therefore show a Dionysia parade with all the Phallic symbolism required for this kind of event. The mule is shown engorged along with the rest of the procession, and in one of the vases shown, I believe it is the Francois Vase, a satyr is attempting to have intercourse with the mule. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hephaestus is basically being taken back through an orgy and everyone, horse included is excited. These paintings show only one portion of Hephaestus' story and are not a common theme throughout his 'Life'&#xD;&#xA;     " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5857" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1341" RevisionGUID="b2e678e6-da66-4fbb-b6f8-ee754083790f" CreationDate="2016-01-18T16:40:58.913" UserId="967" Comment="title had errors" Text="Why was Hephaestus's mule ithyphallic?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5858" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1341" RevisionGUID="b2e678e6-da66-4fbb-b6f8-ee754083790f" CreationDate="2016-01-18T16:40:58.913" Comment="Proposed by 967 approved by 183 edit id of 279" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5860" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1349" RevisionGUID="bfcf71ae-f8fb-4702-b896-acc977a81164" CreationDate="2016-01-18T23:22:45.530" UserId="967" Text="[Theoi][1] has quite the list.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**SYMBOLS**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Crown, Lotus-staff, Cuckoo&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**ATTRIBUTES**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Lotus-staff; Crown; Cuckoo; Peacock; Pomegranate&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**&lt;strike&gt;CHARIOTS&lt;/strike&gt;** Who cares?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**SACRED PLANTS**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Pomegranate, Lotus/Waterlily, Willow&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**SACRED ANIMALS**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Heifer, Lion&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**SACRED BIRDS**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Cuckoo, Peacock, Wide Winged Hawk, and Crane&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**SACRED PLANET**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Venus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She even stole another goddess' Planet.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a tangible reason why she has so many symbols and sacred stuff? &#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Summary/Hera.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5861" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1349" RevisionGUID="bfcf71ae-f8fb-4702-b896-acc977a81164" CreationDate="2016-01-18T23:22:45.530" UserId="967" Text="Why did Hera have so many sacred stuff?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5862" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1349" RevisionGUID="bfcf71ae-f8fb-4702-b896-acc977a81164" CreationDate="2016-01-18T23:22:45.530" UserId="967" Text="|greek|hera|symbolism+|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5863" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1308" RevisionGUID="f3b24a2e-ce52-499b-ab0a-7e195a74e07e" CreationDate="2016-01-19T15:34:30.053" UserId="57" Comment="removed secondary question (too broad)" Text="Most of what we know of Norse mythology comes from two sources: the Prose Edda and the Poetic Edda.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the difference between the two?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5864" PostHistoryTypeId="11" PostId="1308" RevisionGUID="51f3a271-06a5-44f9-983a-581dcf917be3" CreationDate="2016-01-19T15:34:30.420" UserId="57" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:62,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Hamlet&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:42,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;femtoRgon&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Yannis&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="5865" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1350" RevisionGUID="7a8d24e7-2de0-4136-8570-bed0260a36e3" CreationDate="2016-01-19T15:46:42.443" UserId="57" Text="Wikipedia answers this sufficiently: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ###[Poetic Edda][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Poetic Edda is the modern attribution for an unnamed collection of Old Norse poems. Several versions exist, all consisting primarily of text from the Icelandic mediaeval manuscript known as the [Codex Regius][2]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; --- &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ###[Prose Edda][3] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Prose Edda, also known as the Younger Edda, Snorri's Edda or simply Edda, is an Old Norse work of literature written in Iceland in the early 13th century. Together with the Poetic Edda, it comprises the major store of Scandinavian mythology. The work is often assumed to have been written, or at least compiled, by the Icelandic scholar and historian [Snorri Sturluson][4] around the year 1220.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Prose Edda is related to the Poetic Edda in that the Prose Edda cites various poems collected in the Poetic Edda as sources.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you are interested in a closer look, you may find English translations of both on [sacred-texts.com][5]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [The Poetic Edda, translated by Henry Adams Bellows][6]&#xD;&#xA;- [The Prose Edda of Snorri Sturlson, translated by Arthur Gilchrist Brodeur][7] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Regius&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prose_Edda&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snorri_Sturluson&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5866" PostHistoryTypeId="16" PostId="1350" RevisionGUID="6be7b03f-6593-4fb8-aace-ac2e4d16d51e" CreationDate="2016-01-19T15:46:42.443" UserId="57" />
  <row Id="5869" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1352" RevisionGUID="c7d7744b-624f-45b3-9eb8-4ba1f90b039a" CreationDate="2016-01-19T20:04:56.030" UserId="1132" Text="The problem is that you can't look at a God as an equivalent of a person with a distinct and very limited identity. The gods we more fluid in how they were represented and worshipped and during the time in which they were worshipped. When simply enumerating that Hera's sacred birds are a Cuckoo, Peacock, etc., you lose that people living in one community may have had a lot of Peacocks but had never seen a Cuckoo before, so they naturally revered the Peacock instead. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    Priest: And Hera's sacred bird is the Cuckoo&#xD;&#xA;    Worshiper: Ohh. What's a &quot;Cuckoo&quot;?&#xD;&#xA;    Priest: Uhm, [*looks around frantically*]...that bird over there!&#xD;&#xA;    Worshiper: ...Looks kind of like a Peacock to me.&#xD;&#xA;    Priest: Well, it would. That is why I am a priest. Now kneel before the goddess and pray or I will give you such a pinch!!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5870" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1349" RevisionGUID="b4d58083-17c9-4dbf-b087-4961ab7b0c5b" CreationDate="2016-01-19T20:33:22.337" UserId="430" Comment="Tidied the English up, so many things is much better grammatically" Text="Why did Hera have so many sacred things?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5871" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1349" RevisionGUID="b4d58083-17c9-4dbf-b087-4961ab7b0c5b" CreationDate="2016-01-19T20:33:22.337" Comment="Proposed by 430 approved by 967 edit id of 280" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5872" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1343" RevisionGUID="f3487405-9f0c-4703-95c8-6d975b1e6b4e" CreationDate="2016-01-20T11:10:06.897" UserId="57" Comment="title -&gt; question; edited tags" Text="What is the difference between a cockatrice and a basilisk? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have heard both described as a chicken's egg hatched under a toad, and that both are snake-like animals, and that both will turn you to stone if you look at them. Are they the same thing?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5873" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1343" RevisionGUID="f3487405-9f0c-4703-95c8-6d975b1e6b4e" CreationDate="2016-01-20T11:10:06.897" UserId="57" Comment="title -&gt; question; edited tags" Text="What is the difference between a cockatrice and a basilisk?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5874" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1343" RevisionGUID="f3487405-9f0c-4703-95c8-6d975b1e6b4e" CreationDate="2016-01-20T11:10:06.897" UserId="57" Comment="title -&gt; question; edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|basilisk|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5875" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1337" RevisionGUID="bfea2e41-7f41-4f3e-80b3-d07b2907417f" CreationDate="2016-01-20T11:13:45.103" UserId="57" Comment="removed the image. it's just a distraction that doesn't add any value to the question." Text="There are a lot of mythological references, which states that the crow of a rooster is fatal to a [Basilisk][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From [CHAPTER XXXVI of the Bulfinch's mythology][2], **MODERN MONSTERS- THE PHOENIX- BASILISK- UNICORN-SALAMANDER.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There is an old saying that “everything has its enemy” – and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cockatrice quailed before the weasel. The basilisk might look daggers,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the weasel cared not, but advanced boldly to the conflict. When&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bitten, the weasel retired for a moment to eat some rue, which was the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; only plant the basilisks could not wither, returned with renewed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; strength and soundness to the charge, and never left the enemy till he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was stretched dead on the plain. **The monster, too, as if conscious of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the irregular way in which he came into the world, was supposed to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; have a great antipathy to a cock; and well he might, for as soon as he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; heard the cock crow he expired.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And from the [Aelian's characteristics of animals][3] (mythology from the 2nd century):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; With its crowing a cock scares a lion and is fatal to a basilisk.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In addition, there are a lot of instances where this is mentioned in the [Wikipedia article][1] too:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From Tales of Canterbury:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; basilisks can be killed by hearing the crow of a rooster&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the Cantabrian mythology:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The weasel is the only animal that can face and even attack it. It can&#xD;&#xA;&gt; only be killed with the crowing of a rooster, so, until very recent&#xD;&#xA;&gt; times, travelers were carrying a rooster when they ventured into areas&#xD;&#xA;&gt; where it was said that the basilisks lived&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**So, why is it that a rooster can fell such a monstrous creature?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any reason behind the formulation or origin of this?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;Related question on SciFi.SE: [Can the crow of a rooster petrify/kill a basilisk?](http://scifi.stackexchange.com/q/114769/53012)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilisk&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/bulf/bulf35.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.loebclassics.com/view/aelian-characteristics_animals/1958/pb_LCL446.351.xml?result=7&amp;rskey=v85Lg9&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5876" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1209" RevisionGUID="7f7723db-6d9b-4c96-80b1-63f407a8bcbc" CreationDate="2016-01-20T11:16:51.220" UserId="57" Comment="paragraphs" Text="This is an excellent (and difficult) question. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first thing that we must remember is that most or all the material which makes up the so-called 'Epic Cycle' existed earlier in oral form. That is, before the Greeks were literate and the epics were written down, they existed in more fluid oral versions. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Proficient rhapsodes knew and could manipulate the oral traditions.  By that I mean that they could 'stitch together' various components of the epic cycle as they or their audience wanted. Homer was aware of the pre-existing oral traditions;  the *Iliad* itself was an oral composition. The later authors knew the traditions, as well, since some orality survived to Plato's time at least. (The transition from orality to literacy, called proto-literacy, involves both systems of transmission coexisting side by side -- a period that lasted about 400 years for the Greeks.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Just as the rhapsodes enjoyed latitude in the oral performance of lays from the epic cycle, so too the first writers of the epics admitted many influences and innovations.  That is, tradition was never a dead hand forcing certain authorial decisions:  poets have always practiced great compositional freedom. Thanks be to Apollo!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5879" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1353" RevisionGUID="2a6e3f8c-0de9-4276-bc9d-c6becd0efcba" CreationDate="2016-01-20T18:05:32.210" UserId="1076" Text="I understand that the brothers endured a lot of tough challenges, especially from Loki (who tried to disturb them in the form of a fly).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But still, Mjölnir is clearly faulty, which is supported by this quote from The Prose Edda, translated by Arthur Gilchrist Brodeur (1916):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then he gave the hammer to Thor, and said that Thor might smite as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hard as he desired, whatsoever might be before him, and the hammer&#xD;&#xA;&gt; would not fail; and if he threw it at anything, it would never miss,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and never fly so far as not to return to his hand; and if be desired,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he might keep it in his sark, it was so small; **but indeed it was a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; flaw in the hammer that the fore-haft was somewhat short.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, a bet is a bet, and when it is betted upon a head, it should/would be much more intolerant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, why and how did the brothers won the bet when the hammer is clearly faulty? On what criterion is the quality/bet gauged?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5880" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1353" RevisionGUID="2a6e3f8c-0de9-4276-bc9d-c6becd0efcba" CreationDate="2016-01-20T18:05:32.210" UserId="1076" Text="How did Sindri and Brokkr win the bet with Loki, when Mjölnir is clearly faulty?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5881" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1353" RevisionGUID="2a6e3f8c-0de9-4276-bc9d-c6becd0efcba" CreationDate="2016-01-20T18:05:32.210" UserId="1076" Text="|norse|thor|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5882" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1354" RevisionGUID="9a6cac8c-e3f9-47d8-b5fe-130bd276bb2a" CreationDate="2016-01-20T18:58:53.350" UserId="57" Text="The bet didn't call for flawless creations; Sindri and Brokkr just had to do better than the sons of Ivaldi. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apparently, the Aesir decided this was the case: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This was their decision: that the hammer was best of all the precious works, and in it there was the greatest defence against the Rime-Giants; and they gave sentence, that the dwarf should have his wager.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5883" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1354" RevisionGUID="36c562b1-8bf4-4704-8c21-57323371393a" CreationDate="2016-01-20T19:07:58.240" UserId="57" Comment="added 508 characters in body" Text="The bet didn't call for flawless creations; Sindri and Brokkr just had to do better than the sons of Ivaldi. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; After that, Loki went to those dwarves who are called Ívaldi's Sons; and they made the hair, and Skídbladnir also, and the spear which became Odin's possession, and was called Gungnir. Then Loki wagered his head with the dwarf called Brokkr that Brokkr's brother Sindri could not make three other precious things equal in virtue to these.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Skáldskaparmal, The Prose Edda of Snorri Sturlson, translated by Arthur Gilchrist Brodeur](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre05.htm)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apparently, the Aesir decided this was the case: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This was their decision: that the hammer was best of all the precious works, and in it there was the greatest defence against the Rime-Giants; and they gave sentence, that the dwarf should have his wager.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5884" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1355" RevisionGUID="4a04b45b-5f39-4560-9fd5-90d4879fc1d0" CreationDate="2016-01-21T02:18:00.373" UserId="967" Text="Quoting [theoi][1],&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In one, Ariadne, the daughter of King Minos of Krete, assisted Theseus in his quest to slay the Minotaur, and then fled with him aboard his ship. However, when they landed on the island of Naxos, Theseus abandoned her as she was sleeping.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Well, you don't just abandon a person who saved your life on an island these days.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why? Is it just a characteristic of a selfish man? Was he going anywhere?&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/Ariadne.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5885" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1355" RevisionGUID="4a04b45b-5f39-4560-9fd5-90d4879fc1d0" CreationDate="2016-01-21T02:18:00.373" UserId="967" Text="Why did Thesus betray Ariadne?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5886" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1355" RevisionGUID="4a04b45b-5f39-4560-9fd5-90d4879fc1d0" CreationDate="2016-01-21T02:18:00.373" UserId="967" Text="|greek|theseus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5887" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1356" RevisionGUID="d8fa4dab-a118-4992-b9d2-2c8b45c37810" CreationDate="2016-01-21T02:57:24.527" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="The answer depends on which account you read. As per [Theoi][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One (less popular) account claims that Ariadne was killed by Artemis:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...but when they arrived in the island of Dia (Naxos), she was killed there by Artemis. (Hom. Od. xi. 324.) The words added in the Odyssey, Dionusou marturiêisin, are difficult to understand, unless we interpret them with Pherecydes by &quot;on the denunciation of Dionysus,&quot; because he was indignant at the profanation of his grotto by the love of Theseus and Ariadne. In this case Ariadne was probably killed by Artemis at the moment she gave birth to her twin children, for she is said to have had two sons by Theseus, Oenopion and Staphylus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another account claims that she was abandoned by Theseus, either because Theseus was unfaithful and deceiving, or because Theseus was ordered to abandon her by Dionysus, who wanted to marry Ariadne himself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The more common tradition, however, was, that Theseus left Ariadne in Naxos alive; but here the statements again differ, for some relate that he was forced by Dionysus to leave her (Diod. iv. 61, v. 51; Paus. i. 20. § 2, ix. 40. § 2, x. 29. § 2), and that in his grief he forgot to take down the black sail, which occasioned the death of his father. According to others, Theseus faithlessly forsook her in the island, and different motives are given for this act of faithlessness. (Plut. Thes. 20; Ov. Met. viii. 175, Heroid. 10 ; Hygin. Fab. 43.) According to this tradition, Ariadne put an end to her own life in despair, or was saved by Dionysus, who in amazement at her beauty made her his wife, raised her among the immortals, and placed the crown which he gave her at his marriage with her, among the stars. (Hesiod. Theog. 949; Ov. Met. l. c. ; Hygin. Poet. Astr. ii. 5.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/Ariadne.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5890" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1184" RevisionGUID="c4cd9647-0095-466e-b469-b142edef7cb1" CreationDate="2016-01-21T08:26:39.863" UserId="57" Comment="edited title" Text="Which Kalevala translations are closer to the original source?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5891" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1184" RevisionGUID="c4cd9647-0095-466e-b469-b142edef7cb1" CreationDate="2016-01-21T08:26:39.863" UserId="57" Comment="edited title" Text="I know that with the Bible, there are countless translations. Things always seem to get lost in translation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Seeing as how I can't read the native language that the Kalevala was originally written in, which translation is considered by scholars to be the most accurate?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5894" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1353" RevisionGUID="7424311b-5b95-449e-90c0-dcaa0a793cb6" CreationDate="2016-01-21T09:44:07.820" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|thor|sk|ldskaparm|l|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5895" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1353" RevisionGUID="9b811905-2c01-4a6b-8efb-3cd40f358dcf" CreationDate="2016-01-21T09:45:17.360" UserId="1076" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|thor|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5896" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1353" RevisionGUID="b4d7f75a-cc8c-4700-b0b4-f0e5b2b77ed3" CreationDate="2016-01-21T09:47:26.517" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|thor|skaldskaparmal|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5897" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="932" RevisionGUID="0e9366b7-a944-455b-95b5-781c82c64656" CreationDate="2016-01-21T10:03:46.577" UserId="398" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="Unfortunately, your Spanish teacher was wrong. Look under Lewis and Short II.C to see that canere (the ultimate root of enchant &gt; incantare &gt; in + cantare = frequentative of canere) was often used in Latin for spells. Under cantare III you'll see enchant that goes all the way back to the first prose writer in Latin, Cato the Elder (*De Re Rustica* 160.1).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The myth of the Sirens (as theodojo mentioned) was probably not the origin of singing = enchanting, but rather the other way around. For the power of music over humans, one need not look much further than Demodocus in the Odyssey whose singing made Odysseus weep (8.62-67). Furthermore, song, especially formal epic song, always began with an invocation to the Muses, daughters of Apollo and thus song was both religious and prophetic (remember Apollo was the god of prophecy, among other things).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For Hesiod, not only is the poet a &quot;servant of the Muse&quot; (Hes. *Th.* 100), but the &quot;divine gift&quot; (*Th.* 93) of the Muse allows the poet to speak of things of the past and the future: &quot;they breathed a divine voice into me, so that I might glorify what will be and what was before (*Th*. 32).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources: Apart from Hesiod and Homer, good starts would be Stoddard's &quot;The Programmatic Message of the &quot;Kings and Singers&quot; Passage: Hesiod, &quot;Theogony&quot; 80-103&quot; in *TAPhA* 133 (2003): 1-16. See also Greg Nagy's &quot;Ancient Greek Poetry, Prophecy, and Concepts of Theory&quot; in Kugel's *Poetry and Prophecy: The Beginnings of a Literary Tradition*, Cornell University Press, 1990." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5898" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1357" RevisionGUID="ea29e4bc-9c6a-40a9-953d-66b5a27cdf4e" CreationDate="2016-01-23T08:46:24.110" UserId="57" Text="I was reading Lafcadio Hearn's [New Orleans Superstitions][1], when I came upon this proverb:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There are many superstitions about marriage, which seem to have a European origin, but are not less interesting on that account. &quot;Twice a bridesmaid, never a bride,&quot; is a proverb which needs no comment. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a vodun, voodoo or even European story behind the superstition? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/afr/hearn/nos.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5899" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1357" RevisionGUID="ea29e4bc-9c6a-40a9-953d-66b5a27cdf4e" CreationDate="2016-01-23T08:46:24.110" UserId="57" Text="Twice a bridesmaid, never a bride?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5900" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1357" RevisionGUID="ea29e4bc-9c6a-40a9-953d-66b5a27cdf4e" CreationDate="2016-01-23T08:46:24.110" UserId="57" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5901" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="75" RevisionGUID="f46d9af5-f65e-4bd7-9ea4-68be29055178" CreationDate="2016-01-23T09:14:44.363" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|japanese|superstition|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5902" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1357" RevisionGUID="144a58d3-9c56-4fca-a2ca-86af402d2194" CreationDate="2016-01-23T09:14:46.110" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|folklore|superstition|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5904" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="499" RevisionGUID="fca2b8af-b98e-46bb-b508-1ba3ae834be3" CreationDate="2016-01-23T11:04:04.743" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|folklore|mwindo|africa|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5905" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1107" RevisionGUID="3685f661-4820-46a2-b685-bd3680356d6c" CreationDate="2016-01-23T17:06:32.653" UserId="398" Comment="added 40 characters in body" Text="I'm looking into fabulous creatures and demons specifically in Sumerian texts, or, if possible, in Akkadian texts but where the creature/demon still had a Sumerian origin. I can't seem to find a complete list, if it even exists, and many listed in places are extremely suspect. What I have so far:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Anzu bird&#xD;&#xA; - Asag&#xD;&#xA; - Bull of Heaven&#xD;&#xA; - Galla (same as Galatura?)&#xD;&#xA; - Humbaba&#xD;&#xA; - Kurgara&#xD;&#xA; - Namtar&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What else is out there from the Sumerian side? Any fabulous creatures would be helpful, but I hope to find specifically more demons, too." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5906" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1358" RevisionGUID="f37021b7-5542-47be-8001-5d135e7638f1" CreationDate="2016-01-24T00:31:43.843" UserId="967" Text="[Theoi][1] has an interesting mythical creature here&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;THE ONOKENTAUROS (or Onocentaur) was an African animal with the hybrid form of a man and an ass.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Greeks and Romans later applied the name to a type of ape, possibly the chimpanzee.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And a centaur, as everyone knows, is a man and a horse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Well, onokentaros is pretty much unknown. I searched it up, and it is like, a Japanese blog or something.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To top that, this picture shows the onokentaros with one eye and a bone, like he's ready to smack someone. Not very ape-like.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![onokentaros][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I can't really say I've seen an account for that of Centaurs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does that mean that the Centaurs were also just horses that were seen incorrectly? What were the similarities between the onokentaros and the Centaur, other than appearance? Were they ever seen to interact with each other?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://vhttp://www.theoi.com/Thaumasios/Onokentauroi.htmlhttp://www.theoi.com/Thaumasios/Onokentauroi.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/FFFmE.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5907" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1358" RevisionGUID="f37021b7-5542-47be-8001-5d135e7638f1" CreationDate="2016-01-24T00:31:43.843" UserId="967" Text="Onokentaroui and Centaur- origin of both?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5908" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1358" RevisionGUID="f37021b7-5542-47be-8001-5d135e7638f1" CreationDate="2016-01-24T00:31:43.843" UserId="967" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5910" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1358" RevisionGUID="51e71a6a-b023-4cc9-8301-5cde04064ea7" CreationDate="2016-01-24T07:29:46.440" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 57 characters in body" Text="[Theoi][1] has an interesting mythical creature here&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;THE ONOKENTAUROS (or Onocentaur) was an African animal with the hybrid form of a man and an ass.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Greeks and Romans later applied the name to a type of ape, possibly the chimpanzee.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And a centaur, as everyone knows, is a man and a horse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Well, onokentaros is pretty much unknown. I searched it up, and it is like, a Japanese blog or something.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To top that, this picture shows the onokentaros with one eye and a bone, like he's ready to smack someone. Not very ape-like.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![onokentaros][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I can't really say I've seen an account for that of Centaurs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does that mean that the Centaurs were also just horses that were seen incorrectly? What were the similarities between the onokentaros and the Centaur, other than appearance? Were they ever seen to interact with each other?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Thaumasios/Onokentauroi.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/FFFmE.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5911" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1358" RevisionGUID="51e71a6a-b023-4cc9-8301-5cde04064ea7" CreationDate="2016-01-24T07:29:46.440" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 57 characters in body" Text="Onokentauroi and Centaur- origin of both?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5912" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1359" RevisionGUID="75755c09-1c1e-4ea8-8325-e94dce420ae6" CreationDate="2016-01-24T07:49:19.863" UserId="57" Text="I was researching the question [What demons/fabulous creatures did the Sumerians mention?](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/1107/57) when I stumbled upon the she-demon pasittu: &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Mankind Punished**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [iii.45] Enki made ready to speak,&#xD;&#xA;and said to Nintu the birth goddess:&#xD;&#xA;&quot;You, birth goddess, creatress of destinies,&#xD;&#xA;establish death for all peoples!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [iii.d1] &quot;Now then, let there be a third woman among the people,&#xD;&#xA;among the people are the woman who has borne&#xD;&#xA;and the woman who has not borne.&#xD;&#xA;Let there be also among the people the pasittu (she-demon):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [iii.d5] let her snatch the baby from the lap who bore it.&#xD;&#xA;And etablish high priestesses and priestesses,&#xD;&#xA;let them be taboo [celibate], and so cut down childbirth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Epic of Atrahasis](http://www.livius.org/as-at/atrahasis/atrahasis.html#Mankind_Punished)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is pasittu mentioned elsewhere in Akkadian poetry? Is she related to the other child-snatching demoness, Lamashtu?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5913" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1359" RevisionGUID="75755c09-1c1e-4ea8-8325-e94dce420ae6" CreationDate="2016-01-24T07:49:19.863" UserId="57" Text="Who is the she-demon pasittu?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5914" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1359" RevisionGUID="75755c09-1c1e-4ea8-8325-e94dce420ae6" CreationDate="2016-01-24T07:49:19.863" UserId="57" Text="|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5919" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1362" RevisionGUID="2cd04739-1335-4b67-9b57-4f6e0d7c67e8" CreationDate="2016-01-24T12:00:26.650" UserId="1148" Text="What is the fate of Moirai &amp; Parcae in Roman &amp; Greek mythologies? Are they mortal? If they are destined to die when &amp; how it happens? Thanks." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5920" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1362" RevisionGUID="2cd04739-1335-4b67-9b57-4f6e0d7c67e8" CreationDate="2016-01-24T12:00:26.650" UserId="1148" Text="Are Moirai &amp; Parcae mortal?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5921" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1362" RevisionGUID="2cd04739-1335-4b67-9b57-4f6e0d7c67e8" CreationDate="2016-01-24T12:00:26.650" UserId="1148" Text="|greek|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5922" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1363" RevisionGUID="4317ed5d-633b-4c14-80e5-64c6948dd9b7" CreationDate="2016-01-24T14:06:32.240" UserId="967" Text="According to [theoi][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;THE MOIRAI (or Moirae) were the goddesses of fate who personified the inescapable destiny of man. They assinged to every person his or her fate or share in the scheme of things. Their name means &quot;Parts.&quot; &quot;Shares&quot; or &quot;Alottted Portions.&quot; Zeus Moiragetes, the god of fate, was their leader. Klotho, whose name means &quot;Spinner,&quot; spinned the thread of life. Lakhesis, whose name means &quot;Apportioner of Lots&quot;--being derived from a word meaning to receive by lot--, measured the thread of life. Atropos (or Aisa), whose name means &quot;She who cannot be turned,&quot; cut the thread of life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Well, if they were to die, then bad stuff would happen, and fate would end.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Parcae are just the same name, just in Roman form. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice that that name means &quot;Parts.&quot; If only one was to die, then fate would still probably end. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Moirai.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5925" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1364" RevisionGUID="fabfd244-c328-42e5-a188-977c388aced6" CreationDate="2016-01-24T18:10:06.040" UserId="398" Text="Scurlock/Andersen in their *[Diagnoses in Assyrian and Babylonian Medicine](https://books.google.com/books?id=alBmzfP3cpoC&amp;pg=PA137&amp;dq=pasittu&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjI7cXR-sLKAhWGJB4KHXzwC-gQ6AEIMTAA#v=onepage&amp;q=pasittu&amp;f=false)* (University of Illinois Press, 2005) call pašittu a type of disease:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Akkadian term for cholecystitis appears to have been *pašittu*. *Pašittu* is lexically equated with bile, and the Sumerogram (ZU.MUS.I.KU.E) indicates an associated severe pain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They cite the following texts:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 6.110 If, before he has eaten, a person's upper abdomen (epigastrium) gnaws at him, he continually has internal fever, and, when he belches, he vomits bile, that person is sick with *pašittu* (or) *tuganu*, to cure him...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 6.112 As for bile that the king my lord wrote me about, saying &quot;It came up.&quot; It is *pašittu*. The thick sputum came up; the gall settled down below (see above). This is not a good sign that he has been sending (the food) straight through (both) upward (and) downward. (However), he produced sweat for (only) two days. That is good.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are other texts which mention this as well, including cures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that the word &quot;bile&quot; here is *martu*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the demon, Geller in his [*Melothesia in Babylonia*](https://books.google.com/books?id=ETHnBQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA8&amp;lpg=PA7) (De Gruyter, 2014) notes that Lamaštu was considered the daughter of Pašittu:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; On the one hand *martu*, together with pašittu, can mean 'gall', as in the medical commentary GCCI 2 406:4... On the other hand, *mārtu* 'daughter' is a frequent epithet of *pašittu*, as in STT 138: 11' (dupl. of BAM 338 10'), *la-[maš]-tu maš-tu pa-šiš-tu*, 'Lamaštu daughter (of) Pašittu'. SBTU I 43, in lines 10-11, provides a different interpretation, treating Lamaštu (disease as well as demon) a parallel to another demonic disease, 'Pašittu-daughter'.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lamaštu itself seems to be a parallel disease:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The pattern of 'ditto' notations in ll. 8-11 show that toothworm, *girgiššu*, *lamaštu* and *pašittu* diseases are all associated with the throat, mouth, and teeth, while remaining ailments in this group (ll. 12-18) belong only to the throat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I haven't seen it argued, but I think it's reasonable to suppose the linguistic similarities of *martu* and *mārtu* as well as the similarities of the diseases *lamaštu* and *pašittu* were conflated and led to the association of Lamaštu and Pašittu the demons." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5926" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1365" RevisionGUID="49a96687-dc88-4e4a-a7c9-48c10c8fd92c" CreationDate="2016-01-24T19:36:44.040" UserId="398" Text="No, the Moirai are immortal. In fact, contrary to to your comment in response to bleh, the gods are also immortal. [Henrichs](https://books.google.com/books?id=q0KlBgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA31) put this most succinctly with the opening of his section on the gods, &quot;First and foremost, Greek gods are immortal (ἀθάνατοι or αἰὲν ἐόντες)&quot;, the Greek in which means &quot;being undying or forever&quot;. He goes on to say, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Immortality is the ultimate benchmark of their divinity. Subject to reproduction and birth but exempt from death, the gods worshipped by the Greeks are imperishable but not eternal, unlike the Judaeo-Christian creator god or the supreme being of later Platonists. Differently put, Greek gods have a beginning but no end. Hesiod explains their origins in his *Theogony*, which embeds the concept of the divine generation in its title. Gods who suffer and die, such as Dionysus Zagreus, are rare exceptions to the Homeric rule that immortality defined as exemption from death is a prerequisite for divinity. Typically, however, dying gods...come back to life and ultimately confirm the principle of divine immortality.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Albert Henrichs, &quot;What is a Greek God?&quot; in Bremmer &amp; Erskine eds. *The Gods of Ancient Greece: Identities and Transformations*, p. 31. Edinburgh University Press, 2010.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This was not different for the Romans. The Latin expression used for gods is quite often *di immortales* (literally 'undying gods'), and in Greek likewise *athanatoi theoi* (same as the Latin). Furthermore, *brotos* is Greek for mortal, and it's no coincidence that the Gods drank *[ambrosia](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ambrosia&amp;la=greek#lexicon)*, which lexically also means &quot;immortality&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The mere fact that they're goddesses (which is without question) means they are unable to die.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5927" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1366" RevisionGUID="10cfeb41-5d83-4c42-8c18-55254deade20" CreationDate="2016-01-24T19:43:54.523" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="In the Popol Vuh (you can read it online: there is a [literal translation][25] and a [less literal translation][26]), the two hero twins Hunahpu and Xbalanque plant corn plants. These corn plants have an unusual property: they will die if Hunahpu and Xbalanque die.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Each of us shall plant to this ear of unripe maize,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In its center our house we shall plant. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This its sign our death   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; If it will dry up. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ‘They died,’  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; You say when it will dry up. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; If therefore then it will come up its sprout,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; ‘They are alive,’ you say therefore,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm curious about this scene: is the idea of &quot;magical corn plants&quot; (for a lack of a better description) unique to the Popol Vuh, or is it reflective of a wider Maya belief?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: http://www.mesoweb.com/publications/Christenson/PV-Literal.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: http://www.mesoweb.com/publications/Christenson/PopolVuh.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5928" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1366" RevisionGUID="10cfeb41-5d83-4c42-8c18-55254deade20" CreationDate="2016-01-24T19:43:54.523" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="The corn plants in the Popol Vuh: reflections of a wider belief?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5929" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1366" RevisionGUID="10cfeb41-5d83-4c42-8c18-55254deade20" CreationDate="2016-01-24T19:43:54.523" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="|maya|popol-vuh|mesoamerica|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5930" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1367" RevisionGUID="4dbe3ed8-df1a-4439-bf7f-f3f075c92a1c" CreationDate="2016-01-24T19:43:54.523" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="These &quot;magical corn plants&quot; are reflective of a wider belief! Specifically, it's reflective of the belief in coessences, which are also referred to as Nagual, Tonal, Animal Alter Egos. The reason for the various names is that the concept wasn't properly understood understood until recently.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What are coessences/animal alter egos (I'm going to be switching between the two words in this answer)? Alter Egos are entities, usually animals, with whom a human shares consciousness with. The specifics of this belief vary from region to region, however, some common features include:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. When the human falls asleep, they will dream from the perspective  of their animal alter ego.&#xD;&#xA;2. Accounts aren't consistent about whether the animal alter ego is &quot;real&quot;, i.e. whether it is a physical animal.&#xD;&#xA;3. Some people can control their alter ego.&#xD;&#xA;4. Celestial phenomena, such as lightening, can serve as alter egos.&#xD;&#xA;5. If the human *or* the animal alter ego dies, the other will also die as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The last point--the connection between the human's life and the animal's life--is what plays a central role in the Popol Vuh. The corn plants are alter egos of the Hero Twins, which is why their lives are linked.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(If you are interested in learning more about coessences/alter egos, [the paper &quot;The Way Glyph: Evidence for &quot;Co-essences&quot; among the Classic Maya&quot; provides an overview of the concept and is available online][1].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Recent research suggests that coessences are a much wider phenomenon than I initially depicted. Specifically, in addition to these alter egos, people in Mesoamerica also form coessential relationships with practically anything they have a close relationship with. Examples include a farmer forming a coessential relationship with their tools, and a musician forming a coessential relationship with their musical instrument.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a weird belief from a western perspective. If you are interested, [I wrote a blog post that explains why beliefs like coessences are actually rational beliefs to have][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.mesoweb.com/bearc/cmr/30.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://taxicrash.github.io/2016/01/22/individual-dividual/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5931" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1368" RevisionGUID="7de23d55-f2fd-41a2-a954-de41b89d954f" CreationDate="2016-01-25T03:28:42.317" UserId="235" Text="Is there any documentation detailing the gender of the Midgard Serpent Jormungand?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;is it Male, Female, Both, Neither, Null, etc?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5932" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1368" RevisionGUID="7de23d55-f2fd-41a2-a954-de41b89d954f" CreationDate="2016-01-25T03:28:42.317" UserId="235" Text="What gender was the Midgard Serpent Jormungand?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5933" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1368" RevisionGUID="7de23d55-f2fd-41a2-a954-de41b89d954f" CreationDate="2016-01-25T03:28:42.317" UserId="235" Text="|norse|ragnarok|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5934" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1369" RevisionGUID="76353b43-a561-483c-af2f-fbb296149bc5" CreationDate="2016-01-25T10:21:47.550" UserId="42" Text="Male.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jörmungandr is referred to as a &quot;he&quot; in translations of the Prose Edda, such as (quotes, in both cases, from [this text](http://www.germanicmythology.com/ProseEdda/BRODEURPrologeandGylfaginning.html)):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When they came to him, straightway he cast the serpent [Jörmungandr] into the deep sea, where *he* lies about all the land; and this serpent grew so greatly that *he* lies in the midst of the ocean encompassing all the land, and bites upon his own tail.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To go a step further, the use of the pronoun &quot;he&quot; is not incidental, the old norse text for the above line is:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ok er þau kómu til hans, þá kastaði hann orminum í inn djúpa sæ, er liggr um öll lönd, ok óx sá ormr svá, at hann liggr í miðju hafinu of öll lönd ok bítr í sporð sér.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where [&quot;hann&quot;](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hann#Old_Norse) is a male pronoun, analogous to the English &quot;he&quot;." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5935" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1370" RevisionGUID="1fc3ae64-71fa-40a0-9e1a-d997c0aeafa7" CreationDate="2016-01-25T10:26:56.993" UserId="57" Text="The final stanza of the [Völuspá](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lusp%C3%A1) - which immediately follows the stanzas describing the beauty of the new world - seems a bit out of place, if not outright bizarre:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 66\. Then comes the gloomy  &#xD;&#xA;dragon flying,  &#xD;&#xA;serpent from below,  &#xD;&#xA;from Nidafjollum;.  &#xD;&#xA;bears in feather corpse  &#xD;&#xA;- flying over plain -  &#xD;&#xA;Nidhoggr now pale.  &#xD;&#xA;Now may she sink..&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Poetic Edda/Völuspá](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda/V%C3%B6lusp%C3%A1), [Wikisource](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikisource).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why does the dragon Nidhoggr emerge at the dawn of the new world? Hasn't Ragnarök ended when the earth was submerged in the ocean?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5936" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1370" RevisionGUID="1fc3ae64-71fa-40a0-9e1a-d997c0aeafa7" CreationDate="2016-01-25T10:26:56.993" UserId="57" Text="Why does the dragon emerge at the dawn of the new world?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5937" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1370" RevisionGUID="1fc3ae64-71fa-40a0-9e1a-d997c0aeafa7" CreationDate="2016-01-25T10:26:56.993" UserId="57" Text="|norse|ragnarok|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5939" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1370" RevisionGUID="ecedb85a-1a89-441e-bea6-4b89bf022e19" CreationDate="2016-01-25T10:34:32.973" UserId="57" Comment="added 3 characters in body" Text="The final stanza of the [Völuspá](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lusp%C3%A1) - which immediately follows the stanzas describing the beauty of the reborn world - seems a bit out of place, if not outright bizarre:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 66\. Then comes the gloomy  &#xD;&#xA;dragon flying,  &#xD;&#xA;serpent from below,  &#xD;&#xA;from Nidafjollum;.  &#xD;&#xA;bears in feather corpse  &#xD;&#xA;- flying over plain -  &#xD;&#xA;Nidhoggr now pale.  &#xD;&#xA;Now may she sink..&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Poetic Edda/Völuspá](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda/V%C3%B6lusp%C3%A1), [Wikisource](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikisource).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ragnarök and all its ills ended when the earth was submerged in the ocean. Why then does Nidhoggr emerge, bearing corpses in his feathers? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5940" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="15" RevisionGUID="c94f8250-ca7f-46a9-bd7a-c0fe047e41ae" CreationDate="2016-01-25T14:52:36.460" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5941" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1263" RevisionGUID="1818200c-ac75-430a-a351-a8a890c67df3" CreationDate="2016-01-25T17:04:02.853" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added warning" Text="Before I answer this question, I want to warn the reader. It can be very difficult to compare cultures *correctly*. My advice to anyone who wants to search for patterns (and explain why these patterns exist) is to try learning about a single culture/story first. Once you have shown that you can learn about one culture, then you will have the skills necessary to perform comparisons and learn something from them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Have you heard of the Thompson Motif Index? It's essentially a TVTropes for folklore, i.e. a list of folklore organized by motifs. **Most importantly, it's available for free online.** There are two online versions available: a [difficult to use plain-text tool][1] and [a database version, titled MOMFER, that is easy and convenient to use][2]. Here's a screenshot of MOMFER (which I recommend that you use: it's so much more convenient) in case you are skeptical:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![MOMFER Screenshot][3]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In case you are interested: [the code for MOMFER is available on github][4] and [the creators of MOMFER have written a paper about developing the tool][5] (unfortunately behind a paywall).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One issue that might be relevant is that we should not assume that the Thompson Index does not list every instance of a motif (it was published in the 1960s). However, it should be *good enough* for the purposes of the majority of the visitors to this site.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are [other myth indexes available][6] that focus on specific regions and/or are more up to date. As far as I can tell, those indexes aren't available online, so you will have to look for them in a library. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.ualberta.ca/~urban/Projects/English/Motif_Index.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.momfer.ml/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/o0xas.png&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://github.com/fbkarsdorp/tmi&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0015587X.2015.1006954&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motif_%28folkloristics%29#Other_motif_indices" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5942" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1371" RevisionGUID="de61b736-c3aa-4e98-aab4-ba7a4e785242" CreationDate="2016-01-25T22:24:29.590" UserId="1058" Text="From what I gather, the origin is uncertain, but it seems common sense that &quot;if association with a bride and the high profile of the day did not attract a husband after two opportunities, then perhaps there was little hope&quot; ([*Marriage Customs of the World* 98][1]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of pinpointing the locale of the superstition, I believe that the modern use of bridesmaids -- in the sense that they appear alongside the bride at the time of wedding -- stems perhaps from Biblical origins, at least [if you believe Wikipedia][2], and so it makes sense that this superstition would crop up in Europe. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further research is needed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=avDXAQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA98#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridesmaid#Origin_and_history" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5943" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1372" RevisionGUID="a7f78335-11be-4ae2-93be-503060bba77f" CreationDate="2016-01-25T22:26:41.753" UserId="398" Text="Yes, several!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First, of the Greek world, we have the ***Catalogue of Women*** (sometimes called the *Ehoiai*). This is a debatable entry, as it lacks a strict narrative. Instead, it's the account of the birth of heroes traced through their mothers. I mention it because there is a close relationship between ancient Greek genealogical poetry and Greek narrative poetry.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Better though would be the *Europia* and *Danaides*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately, nothing substantial exists from the ***Europia***. It was an epic poem supposedly composed by Eumelus of Corinth in the 8th century about Europa, the Phoenician princess and sister of Cadmus (who later founded Thebes in search of her) who was abducted by Zeus. How much of her character is developed is unknown.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like the *Europia*, the ***Danaides*** is also mostly lost. However, unlike Europia and like the Catalogue of Women, it was probably genealogical in nature, though the focus was on the [Daughters of Danaus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daughters_of_Danaus).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For more on these two, I recommend checking out Martin West's [*Greek Epic Fragments*](http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674996052) from the Loeb Library.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moving away from Greek works, we have a few of these in the Tamil tradition. The first one is the ***Kundalakesi***. Unfortunately, like the ones prior, it too is only excerpted and not fully preserved. Wikipedia preserves a summary:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kundalakesi is an adaptation of the story of the Buddhist Bhikṣuni (lit. female monk) Kunḍalakeśi from the Dhammapada. The protagonist Kundalakesi (lit. The woman with curls) was born in a merchant family in the city of Puhar. Her birth name is &quot;Bhadra&quot;. She loses her mother during childhood and lives a sheltered life. One day she sees a thief being paraded in the streets of Puhar and falls in love with him. The thief, Kaalan has been sentenced to death for banditry. Besotted with Kaalan, Kundalakesi implores her father to save him. Her father petitions the king for the thief's release. He pays Kaalan's weight in gold and 81 elephants to the treasury to secure Kaalan's release. Kundalakesi and Kaalan are married and live happily for some time. One day, she playfully refers to him as a thief. This enrages the mercurial Kaalan and he decides to kill his wife in revenge. He tricks her into visiting the summit of the nearby hill. Once they reach the summit, he announces his intention to kill her by pushing her off the hill. Kundalakesi is shocked and asks him to grant a final wish – she wishes to worship him by going around him three times before she dies. He agrees and when she gets behind him, Kundalakesi pushes him off the summit, killing him. Repenting her actions, she becomes a Buddhist monk and spends the rest of her life spreading the teachings of Buddha. She carries out theological battles with Jains and Hindus, defeating them in debates. She finally attains superior liberation. In one of the versions, it is believed that she was a Jain in her initial life and she shattered conventions by becoming a nigrantha or naked monk.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kundalakesi&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ***Neelakesi*** was written in response to the Kundalakesi. Instead of a Buddhist nun, it tells the story of&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  the Jain nun [Neelakesi] who was a rival of the Buddhist protagonist of the Kundalakesi. According to the epic, when animal sacrifices of a temple of the Kali in Panchala were stopped due to the influence of the Jains, the Goddess dispatched the local deity Nīli to seduce and destroy the monk responsible for it. However, Nīli herself is converted to Jainism by the monk. Nīlakēci, as she is renamed, travels the country indulging in philosophical debate with rhetoricians of other religions. She debates and defeats several Buddhist rhetoricians like Arkachandra, Kundalakesi, Moggallana (Tamil: Mokkala) and even Gautama Buddha himself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neelakesi&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The third Tamil epic is the ***Silappatikaram***, which is about &quot;Kannagi, who having lost her husband to a miscarriage of justice at the court of the Pandyan Dynasty, wreaks her revenge on his kingdom.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silappatikaram&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The final Tamil epic with a female protagonist is the ***Manimekalai***, a sequel to *Silappatikaram*. It &quot;describes how Manimekalai, the beautiful daughter of Kovalan and Madhavi, follower of local deities later included in Hinduism, converts to Buddhism.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manimekalai&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we do not limit it to the ancient world, Elizabeth Barret Browning in 1865 published ***Aurora Leigh***, an epic in 9 books written in blank verse. Wikipedia explains:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  It is a first person narration, from the point of view of Aurora; its other heroine, Marian Erle, is an abused self-taught child of itinerant parents. The poem is set in Florence, Malvern, London, and Paris. She uses her knowledge of Hebrew and Greek, while also playing off modern novels, such as *Corinne ou l'Italie* by Anne Louise Germaine de Staël and the novels by George Sand. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurora_Leigh&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There were other ancient tales that aren't strictly epic poems that featured a woman as the lead figure, such the Aramaic text of ***Esther*** (Heb. אֶסְתֵּר) found in both Jewish and Christian bibles, and ***Judith***, a deuterocanonical book found in the Catholic and Orthodox bibles." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5944" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1300" RevisionGUID="fce4f0ff-60d2-47fb-847f-b40a8dc6cb7b" CreationDate="2016-01-25T23:08:44.073" UserId="398" Comment="deleted 31 characters in body; edited title" Text="In the Indian epic Ramayana, the women show some great complex characters, behaviours etc but they are much less explored and sometimes sidelined/forgotten(not entirely) by the overshadowing persona of the male characters. In the other Indian epic Mahabharata, there are even more powerful female characters, but the main theme of this epic is war, which, was not fought by women but men(and I don't have a problem with that).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are some stories of the birth of Durga etc but that is not an epic. Some of which I know already are - Abhijanshakuntalam by Kalidasa , Mrichhakatika by shudraka, Silapathikaram, Siri Sandhi, and Manimekalai. These are not clearly epics (not very long or very detailed). And on top of that, these are only Indic literature. My question is, are there any epics which have the woman as a central character other than these, in world or Indic Literature?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5945" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1300" RevisionGUID="fce4f0ff-60d2-47fb-847f-b40a8dc6cb7b" CreationDate="2016-01-25T23:08:44.073" UserId="398" Comment="deleted 31 characters in body; edited title" Text="Are there any epics feature a female protagonist with less explored male characters?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5946" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1300" RevisionGUID="1b48f815-16ca-4937-851d-e118f2c22d66" CreationDate="2016-01-25T23:25:12.957" UserId="398" Comment="edited title" Text="Are there any epics featuring a female protagonist with less explored male characters?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5947" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1300" RevisionGUID="6a15a525-f7fe-41fb-837e-d0663f834dd9" CreationDate="2016-01-26T00:07:27.667" UserId="398" Comment="edited tags" Text="|comparative|hindu|india|epic-poetry|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5948" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1373" RevisionGUID="ab11957f-245d-4b4a-abdf-70d7dc0256ea" CreationDate="2016-01-26T00:08:08.260" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5949" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1374" RevisionGUID="0be3e07f-b4ff-47af-80a8-d040b744afc1" CreationDate="2016-01-26T00:08:08.260" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5950" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1309" RevisionGUID="56bb169c-3b1f-4af0-8de9-946b8592d919" CreationDate="2016-01-26T00:55:44.320" UserId="398" Comment="I *think* this is what the user is asking. If verified, I can clean up the language further. Also, if so, it belongs in Meta." Text="Simply put. How can we be so sure of the validity of mythos. Especially for me, who is searching the net, as apposed to ancient Greek libraries or asking an actual Norse priest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm just curious since even with more modern subjects such as Buddhism or science. The internet can be persuasive but not always accurate.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How can we be sure of he sources? Is this why its called 'myth'os since its basically a story? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm only asking since with my time I've heard many differing tales. For instance Kronus is sometimes talked about as aplanet, or the God of time, Chaos, or just simply Zeus father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**How and where so you goto verify mythos validity**" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5951" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1309" RevisionGUID="56bb169c-3b1f-4af0-8de9-946b8592d919" CreationDate="2016-01-26T00:55:44.320" UserId="398" Comment="I *think* this is what the user is asking. If verified, I can clean up the language further. Also, if so, it belongs in Meta." Text="How can we be sure what we read here is accurate?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5953" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1309" RevisionGUID="a9ada431-fd16-418e-b378-5fab5a46cf3a" CreationDate="2016-01-26T02:21:00.080" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="not really about greek mythology" Text="|source-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5954" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1309" RevisionGUID="e905efab-76eb-44b0-98fd-eb1644703599" CreationDate="2016-01-26T04:58:52.117" UserId="398" Comment="corrected spelling, fixed grammar" Text="Simply put, how can we be so sure of the validity of some myth? Especially for me, who is searching the net, as opposed to ancient Greek libraries or asking an actual Norse priest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm just curious since even with more modern subjects such as Buddhism or science. The internet can be persuasive but not always accurate.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How can we be sure of the sources? Is this why its called 'mythos' since it's basically a story? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm only asking since with my time I've heard many, differing tales. For instance Kronos is sometimes talked about as a planet, or the God of time, Chaos, or just simply Zeus father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**How and where do we verify a myth's validity?**" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5955" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1309" RevisionGUID="8d54b3e2-a9f5-4690-b208-868e799e7379" CreationDate="2016-01-26T08:26:35.643" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|untagged|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5956" PostHistoryTypeId="11" PostId="1309" RevisionGUID="e6be415b-3df9-4e79-8fdf-94500ee1e8b9" CreationDate="2016-01-26T08:26:39.767" UserId="57" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;C. M. Weimer&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Yannis&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="5957" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1375" RevisionGUID="c671b92e-3ad1-42e1-8c33-f8f417376439" CreationDate="2016-01-26T08:31:40.930" UserId="57" Text="In [Chapter II: Where Man Came From, and How Death Came](http://www.sacred-texts.com/afr/mlb/mlb04.htm) of Alice Werner's [Myths and Legends of the Bantu](http://www.sacred-texts.com/afr/mlb/index.htm) we find the chameleon legend of the [Bantu people](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantu_peoples). The legend explains how death came into the world:   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is said he (Unkulunkulu) sent a chameleon; he said to it, &quot;Go, chameleon (lunwaba), go and say, 'Let not men die!'&quot; The chameleon set out; it went slowly, it loitered in the way; and as it went it ate of the fruit of a bush which is called Ubukwebezane. At length Uhkulunkulu sent a lizard [intulo, the blue-headed gecko] after the chameleon, when it had already set out for some time. The lizard went; it ran and made great haste, for Unkulunkulu had said, &quot;Lizard, when you have arrived say, 'Let men die!'&quot; So the lizard went, and said, &quot;I tell you, it is said, 'Let men die!'&quot; The lizard came back again to Unkulunkulu before the chameleon had reached his destination, the chameleon, which was sent first-which was sent and told to go and say, &quot;Let not men die!&quot; At length it arrived and shouted, saying, &quot;It is said, 'Let not men die!'&quot; But men answered, &quot;Oh, we have accepted the word of the lizard; it has told us the word, 'It is said &quot;Let men die!'&quot; We cannot hear your word. Through the word of the lizard men will die.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why did [Unkulunkulu][1] change his mind? Why did he send the lizard after the chameleon?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unkulunkulu" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5958" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1375" RevisionGUID="c671b92e-3ad1-42e1-8c33-f8f417376439" CreationDate="2016-01-26T08:31:40.930" UserId="57" Text="Why did Unkulunkulu send the lizard after the chameleon?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5959" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1375" RevisionGUID="c671b92e-3ad1-42e1-8c33-f8f417376439" CreationDate="2016-01-26T08:31:40.930" UserId="57" Text="|folklore|africa|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5960" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1376" RevisionGUID="457d70b4-1c43-4456-966f-91f5b9721299" CreationDate="2016-01-26T10:48:50.487" UserId="1154" Text="My friends study the history of religions and they say Zeus was the head of Olymp, and Poseidon not only the god of &quot;water&quot; and &quot;earthquakes&quot; and whatever, but the main god. One of the reasons is the trident.&#xD;&#xA;Is it can be?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5961" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1376" RevisionGUID="457d70b4-1c43-4456-966f-91f5b9721299" CreationDate="2016-01-26T10:48:50.487" UserId="1154" Text="Why does some people insist that Poseidon and not Zeus was the head god?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5962" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1376" RevisionGUID="457d70b4-1c43-4456-966f-91f5b9721299" CreationDate="2016-01-26T10:48:50.487" UserId="1154" Text="|greek|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5963" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1376" RevisionGUID="2b1aa517-a56b-4f27-a513-3fbce1e3eb76" CreationDate="2016-01-26T10:56:23.357" UserId="57" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="My friends study the history of religions and they say Zeus was the head of Olympus, and Poseidon not only the god of &quot;water&quot; and &quot;earthquakes&quot; and whatever, but the main god. One of the reasons is the trident.&#xD;&#xA;Is it can be?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5965" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1376" RevisionGUID="d859d71d-4264-4a85-8e53-8b0ab7787cc0" CreationDate="2016-01-26T13:53:34.050" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 43 characters in body; edited title" Text="My friends study the history of religions and say that, although Zeus is known for being the head of Olympus, Poseidon was also considered the chief deity at times. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is this true?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5966" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1376" RevisionGUID="d859d71d-4264-4a85-8e53-8b0ab7787cc0" CreationDate="2016-01-26T13:53:34.050" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 43 characters in body; edited title" Text="Where Poseidon ever consider a chief deity, instead of Zeus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5967" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1376" RevisionGUID="486b39bd-ac4f-4a43-a1f9-ceebf2c8c26c" CreationDate="2016-01-26T15:26:48.887" UserId="57" Comment="typo in title; edited title" Text="Was Poseidon ever consider a chief deity, instead of Zeus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5968" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1376" RevisionGUID="047532c2-2662-4e81-bd44-588a73144094" CreationDate="2016-01-26T15:35:14.800" UserId="398" Comment="clarified some things that might not be clear, fixed grammar" Text="My friends study the history of religions and say that, once Zeus was known for being the head of Olympus, while Poseidon was considered the chief deity. One piece of evidence they give for this is the trident.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is this true?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5969" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1376" RevisionGUID="047532c2-2662-4e81-bd44-588a73144094" CreationDate="2016-01-26T15:35:14.800" UserId="398" Comment="clarified some things that might not be clear, fixed grammar" Text="Was Poseidon ever consider a chief deity instead of Zeus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5970" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="605" RevisionGUID="124ae1b2-26fc-4dcf-9f32-d3eba95230a8" CreationDate="2016-01-26T22:45:31.013" UserId="183" Comment="edited tags" Text="|ceremonies|torah|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5971" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1305" RevisionGUID="50780d50-6411-4eec-b168-9ee9dbd85fe9" CreationDate="2016-01-26T23:12:51.013" UserId="967" Comment="titans" Text="The gods that I know-&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;ROMAN&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Bellona - Roman goddess of war&#xD;&#xA; - Lupa- Roman wolf goddess&#xD;&#xA; - Janus- 2 headed Roman god&#xD;&#xA; - Pomona- god of plentiful&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;GREEK&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Achelois - One of the Greek moon goddesses.&#xD;&#xA; - Achelous - The Greek patron god of the Achelous river.&#xD;&#xA; - Alastor - Greek god of family feuds. (ikr)&#xD;&#xA; - Alcyone - One of the seven daughters of Atlas and Pleione. (greek. is she a goddess?)&#xD;&#xA; - Alectrona - Early Greek goddess of the sun.&#xD;&#xA; - Antheia - Goddess of gardens, flowers, swamps, and marshes.&#xD;&#xA; - Astraea - The Star Maiden - a goddess of justice, included in Virgo and Libra mythologies.&#xD;&#xA; - Até - Goddess of mischief.&#xD;&#xA; - Bia - The goddess of force.&#xD;&#xA; - Brizo - Protector of Mariners.&#xD;&#xA; - Celaeno - The name of a wife of Poseidon.&#xD;&#xA; - Dinlas - Guardian of the ancient city of Lamark, where wounded heroes could heal after battle.&#xD;&#xA; - Doris - A Sea Nymph, mother of the Nereids. (guess this counts as a goddess)&#xD;&#xA; - Eireisone - The deity who embodied the sacred ceremonial olive branch.&#xD;&#xA; - Iris - Goddess of rainbows.&#xD;&#xA; - Khione - The goddess of snow and daughter of the North Wind (Boreas).&#xD;&#xA; - Kratos - A god of strength and power.&#xD;&#xA; - Merope - One of the seven Pleiades, married to king Sisyphos. (goddess or not?)&#xD;&#xA; - Morpheus - God of dreams and sleep.&#xD;&#xA; - Plutus - God of wealth.&#xD;&#xA; - Pricus - The immortal father of sea-goats, made into the Capricorn constellation.&#xD;&#xA; - Styx - A Naiad who was the first to aid Zeus in the Titan war. (Not to be confused with the river Styx).&#xD;&#xA; - Zelus - The god of zeal, rivalry, and jealousy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Titans:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Atlas - The Primordial Titan who carried the world on his back.&#xD;&#xA; - Metis - Titan goddess of wisdom.&#xD;&#xA; - Oceanus - Titan god of the ocean.&#xD;&#xA; - Pallas - A giant who was one of the ancient Titan gods of war. (?)&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you think the muses are gods then those too. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://www.gods-and-monsters.com/list-of-greek-gods-goddesses.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;P.S. I omitted some because they were Titans. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5972" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1305" RevisionGUID="9d259cf6-c0e1-4059-a9c9-98d0f4e39295" CreationDate="2016-01-27T00:53:57.123" UserId="398" Comment="removed superfluous wording due to pervious edits" Text="The gods that I know-&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;ROMAN&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Bellona - Roman goddess of war&#xD;&#xA; - Lupa- Roman wolf goddess&#xD;&#xA; - Janus- 2 headed Roman god&#xD;&#xA; - Pomona- god of plentiful&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;GREEK&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Achelois - One of the Greek moon goddesses.&#xD;&#xA; - Achelous - The Greek patron god of the Achelous river.&#xD;&#xA; - Alastor - Greek god of family feuds. (ikr)&#xD;&#xA; - Alcyone - One of the seven daughters of Atlas and Pleione. (greek. is she a goddess?)&#xD;&#xA; - Alectrona - Early Greek goddess of the sun.&#xD;&#xA; - Antheia - Goddess of gardens, flowers, swamps, and marshes.&#xD;&#xA; - Astraea - The Star Maiden - a goddess of justice, included in Virgo and Libra mythologies.&#xD;&#xA; - Até - Goddess of mischief.&#xD;&#xA; - Bia - The goddess of force.&#xD;&#xA; - Brizo - Protector of Mariners.&#xD;&#xA; - Celaeno - The name of a wife of Poseidon.&#xD;&#xA; - Dinlas - Guardian of the ancient city of Lamark, where wounded heroes could heal after battle.&#xD;&#xA; - Doris - A Sea Nymph, mother of the Nereids. (guess this counts as a goddess)&#xD;&#xA; - Eireisone - The deity who embodied the sacred ceremonial olive branch.&#xD;&#xA; - Iris - Goddess of rainbows.&#xD;&#xA; - Khione - The goddess of snow and daughter of the North Wind (Boreas).&#xD;&#xA; - Kratos - A god of strength and power.&#xD;&#xA; - Merope - One of the seven Pleiades, married to king Sisyphos. (goddess or not?)&#xD;&#xA; - Morpheus - God of dreams and sleep.&#xD;&#xA; - Plutus - God of wealth.&#xD;&#xA; - Pricus - The immortal father of sea-goats, made into the Capricorn constellation.&#xD;&#xA; - Styx - A Naiad who was the first to aid Zeus in the Titan war. (Not to be confused with the river Styx).&#xD;&#xA; - Zelus - The god of zeal, rivalry, and jealousy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Titans:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Atlas - The Primordial Titan who carried the world on his back.&#xD;&#xA; - Metis - Titan goddess of wisdom.&#xD;&#xA; - Oceanus - Titan god of the ocean.&#xD;&#xA; - Pallas - A giant who was one of the ancient Titan gods of war. (?)&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you think the muses are gods then those too. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://www.gods-and-monsters.com/list-of-greek-gods-goddesses.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5977" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="18" RevisionGUID="050bf127-61de-47e2-b52e-941ba42837b1" CreationDate="2016-01-27T08:04:16.320" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|egyptian|animals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5978" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="289" RevisionGUID="9deba3b6-34a4-4f0a-9538-d4bbff31da6f" CreationDate="2016-01-27T08:04:23.163" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|egyptian|animals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5981" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1378" RevisionGUID="9839b315-6474-41ae-89b1-6d449d75cbf0" CreationDate="2016-01-27T14:17:09.500" UserId="721" Text="What are some abrahamic angel creation myths, if there are any?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zoroastrian angel creation myths are welcome, too. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you!  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5982" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1378" RevisionGUID="9839b315-6474-41ae-89b1-6d449d75cbf0" CreationDate="2016-01-27T14:17:09.500" UserId="721" Text="What are some abrahamic angel creation myths?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5983" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1378" RevisionGUID="9839b315-6474-41ae-89b1-6d449d75cbf0" CreationDate="2016-01-27T14:17:09.500" UserId="721" Text="|angels|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5984" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1378" RevisionGUID="5eab7c18-5972-4959-8acb-fb6e5a320dc4" CreationDate="2016-01-27T14:23:29.027" UserId="57" Comment="the question is very broad, removed secondary question about zoroastrian myths to narrow it a bit." Text="What are some Abrahamic angel creation myths, if there are any?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you!  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5985" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1378" RevisionGUID="5eab7c18-5972-4959-8acb-fb6e5a320dc4" CreationDate="2016-01-27T14:23:29.027" UserId="57" Comment="the question is very broad, removed secondary question about zoroastrian myths to narrow it a bit." Text="What are some Abrahamic angel creation myths?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5986" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1378" RevisionGUID="5eab7c18-5972-4959-8acb-fb6e5a320dc4" CreationDate="2016-01-27T14:23:29.027" UserId="57" Comment="the question is very broad, removed secondary question about zoroastrian myths to narrow it a bit." Text="|myth-identification|abrahamic-religions|angels|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5988" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1379" RevisionGUID="9a4a0d3f-545f-49c2-a962-12f5eb88020e" CreationDate="2016-01-27T17:02:16.090" UserId="57" Text="Bhoots are ghosts from Indian folklore, whose feet are facing backwards:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Bhoots are able to alter and assume forms of various animals at will, but are usually seen in human form. However, their feet often reveal them to be ghosts, as they are backwards facing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Bhoot (ghost), https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bhoot_(ghost)&amp;oldid=692466844 (last visited Jan. 25, 2016)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a story that explains this revealing deformity?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5989" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1379" RevisionGUID="9a4a0d3f-545f-49c2-a962-12f5eb88020e" CreationDate="2016-01-27T17:02:16.090" UserId="57" Text="Why are the feet of bhoots facing backwards?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5990" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1379" RevisionGUID="9a4a0d3f-545f-49c2-a962-12f5eb88020e" CreationDate="2016-01-27T17:02:16.090" UserId="57" Text="|folklore|india|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5991" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="65" RevisionGUID="9b8709a5-0102-43a3-96e8-ac28cf064be9" CreationDate="2016-01-27T18:32:17.670" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|folklore|celtic|symbolism|interpretation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5992" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="244" RevisionGUID="b5d69c22-ad54-45e4-8bc6-6190c1565361" CreationDate="2016-01-27T18:33:44.933" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|gods|mesopotamia|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5993" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="244" RevisionGUID="d441fa80-bdea-48d8-9aff-dec3be22b2c1" CreationDate="2016-01-27T21:16:35.490" UserId="398" Comment="edited tags" Text="|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5994" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1378" RevisionGUID="11c17aaa-895f-458f-940d-ac86c8ceb4f8" CreationDate="2016-01-27T22:02:34.313" UserId="967" Comment="Why thank you?" Text="What are some Abrahamic angel creation myths, if there are any?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5995" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1378" RevisionGUID="11c17aaa-895f-458f-940d-ac86c8ceb4f8" CreationDate="2016-01-27T22:02:34.313" Comment="Proposed by 967 approved by 42, 62 edit id of 286" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5997" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1378" RevisionGUID="c39cac76-f7ff-44c4-847f-fab888beac65" CreationDate="2016-01-27T22:25:03.913" UserId="398" Comment="added 82 characters in body; edited title" Text="In Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Islam, Christianity, and potentially by relation Zoroastrianism), what do the sources say is the origin of angels?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5998" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1378" RevisionGUID="c39cac76-f7ff-44c4-847f-fab888beac65" CreationDate="2016-01-27T22:25:03.913" UserId="398" Comment="added 82 characters in body; edited title" Text="In Abrahamic religions, what is the origin of angels?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="5999" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1380" RevisionGUID="2fee5ab4-f88d-4466-becf-3ee81e940a1c" CreationDate="2016-01-27T23:22:50.947" UserId="967" Text="In [this question,][1] while looking on [theoi][2], it says that &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Their name means &quot;Parts.&quot; &quot;Shares&quot; or &quot;Alotted Portions.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a thing behind this? Is it just because Fate was split into 3?&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1362/are-moirai-parcae-mortal&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Moirai.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6000" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1380" RevisionGUID="2fee5ab4-f88d-4466-becf-3ee81e940a1c" CreationDate="2016-01-27T23:22:50.947" UserId="967" Text="Symbolism of Parcae meaning parts" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6001" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1380" RevisionGUID="2fee5ab4-f88d-4466-becf-3ee81e940a1c" CreationDate="2016-01-27T23:22:50.947" UserId="967" Text="|greek|fates|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6002" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1381" RevisionGUID="cfb80b23-b0db-42ce-8ea1-d95fa43e5d18" CreationDate="2016-01-28T00:27:02.693" UserId="42" Text="Cremation with one's possessions is given as Odin's law in [the Ynglinga Saga](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/heim/02ynglga.htm).  The reasoning given is that cremation with one's possessions allow them to bring whatever was burned with them into Valhalla:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Odin established the same law in his land that had been in force&#xD;&#xA;in Asaland.  Thus he established by law that all dead men should&#xD;&#xA;be burned, and their belongings laid with them upon the pile, and&#xD;&#xA;the ashes be cast into the sea or buried in the earth.  Thus,&#xD;&#xA;said he, every one will come to Valhalla with the riches he had&#xD;&#xA;with him upon the pile; and he would also enjoy whatever he&#xD;&#xA;himself had buried in the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An early account of such a ship burial comes from [an account of Ibn Fadlan](http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/ibn_fdln.shtml) (a 10th century Arab traveler) among the Rus.  It is similar in that the final burial involves the deceased placed in a ship and then burned.  The ship, in this case, was aground and was not lit by arrows, however.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason for burning the ship is not specifically addressed, necessarily, but the implication seems clear that it is meant to accompany him to the afterlife along with the rest of his possessions.  The man is cremated with numerous other possessions as well, including food, drink, an instrument, fine clothes, weapons, animals, and a slave girl.  These are to be with him in the afterlife, as made clear as they instruct the to-be-sacrificed slave girl to relay a message to her deceased lord:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  The girl slave who wished to be killed went here and there and into each of their tents, and the master of each tent had sexual intercourse with her and said, &quot;Tell your lord I have done this out of love for him.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Rus also give a brief explanation of why cremation is chosen, as opposed to burial:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;He said, 'You Arabs are fools.' &quot; &quot;Why?&quot; I asked him. He said, &quot;You take the people who are most dear to you and whom you honor most and put them into the ground where insects and worms devour them. We burn him in a moment, so that he enters Paradise at once.&quot; Then he began to laugh uproariously. When I asked why he laughed, he said, &quot;His Lord, for love of him, has sent the wind to bring him away in an hour.&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6003" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1381" RevisionGUID="c7e9d14d-078f-43de-8840-ea46d236792e" CreationDate="2016-01-28T00:32:06.350" UserId="42" Comment="edited body" Text="Cremation with one's possessions is given as Odin's law in [the Ynglinga Saga](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/heim/02ynglga.htm).  The reasoning given is that cremation with one's possessions allow them to bring whatever was burned with them into Valhalla:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Odin established the same law in his land that had been in force&#xD;&#xA;in Asaland.  Thus he established by law that all dead men should&#xD;&#xA;be burned, and their belongings laid with them upon the pile, and&#xD;&#xA;the ashes be cast into the sea or buried in the earth.  Thus,&#xD;&#xA;said he, every one will come to Valhalla with the riches he had&#xD;&#xA;with him upon the pile; and he would also enjoy whatever he&#xD;&#xA;himself had buried in the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An early account of such a ship burial comes from [an account of Ibn Fadlan](http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/ibn_fdln.shtml) (a 10th century Arab traveler) among the Rus.  It is similar in that the final burial involves the deceased placed in a ship and then burned.  The ship, in this case, was aground and was not lit by arrows, however.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason for burning the ship is not specifically addressed, necessarily, but the implication seems to be that it is meant to accompany him to the afterlife along with the rest of his possessions.  The man is cremated with numerous other possessions as well, including food, drink, an instrument, fine clothes, weapons, animals, and a slave girl.  These are to be with him in the afterlife, as made clear as they instruct the to-be-sacrificed slave girl to relay a message to her deceased lord:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  The girl slave who wished to be killed went here and there and into each of their tents, and the master of each tent had sexual intercourse with her and said, &quot;Tell your lord I have done this out of love for him.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Rus also give a brief explanation of why cremation is chosen, as opposed to burial:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;He said, 'You Arabs are fools.' &quot; &quot;Why?&quot; I asked him. He said, &quot;You take the people who are most dear to you and whom you honor most and put them into the ground where insects and worms devour them. We burn him in a moment, so that he enters Paradise at once.&quot; Then he began to laugh uproariously. When I asked why he laughed, he said, &quot;His Lord, for love of him, has sent the wind to bring him away in an hour.&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6005" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1382" RevisionGUID="3ef2ffd4-f79e-41fc-88f5-3dfa86990353" CreationDate="2016-01-28T00:34:06.303" UserId="398" Text="So, there are a couple things here. *[Parcae](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=parcae&amp;la=la#lexicon)* refers to the Roman Fates, while [Moirai](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=moirai&amp;la=greek#lexicon) (or Moerae) refer to the Greek Fates.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Next, &quot;parts&quot; is a not particularly helpful translation. The better one is the third one you shared, &quot;allotted portions&quot; (or apportioned lots). It instead refers to their activity. There were three Fates in Greek mythology, which you can read if you just look a little further in the same paragraph you link to:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Klotho, whose name means &quot;Spinner,&quot; spinned the thread of life. Lakhesis, whose name means &quot;Apportioner of Lots&quot;--being derived from a word meaning to receive by lot--, measured the thread of life. Atropos (or Aisa), whose name means &quot;She who cannot be turned,&quot; cut the thread of life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The &quot;parts&quot; or &quot;apportioned lots&quot; refers to their activity. The spin, weave, and cut the &quot;thread of life&quot;, so to speak. The life you get is the life they allot you." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6006" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1358" RevisionGUID="f3685f33-18de-414a-a848-990cdbb27f89" CreationDate="2016-01-28T01:32:27.367" UserId="967" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="[Theoi][1] has an interesting mythical creature here&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;THE ONOKENTAUROS (or Onocentaur) was an African animal with the hybrid form of a man and [a donkey].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Greeks and Romans later applied the name to a type of ape, possibly the chimpanzee.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And a centaur, as everyone knows, is a man and a horse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Well, onokentaros is pretty much unknown. I searched it up, and it is like, a Japanese blog or something.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To top that, this picture shows the onokentaros with one eye and a bone, like he's ready to smack someone. Not very ape-like.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![onokentaros][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I can't really say I've seen an account for that of Centaurs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does that mean that the Centaurs were also just horses that were seen incorrectly? What were the similarities between the onokentaros and the Centaur, other than appearance? Were they ever seen to interact with each other?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Thaumasios/Onokentauroi.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/FFFmE.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6009" PostHistoryTypeId="8" PostId="1358" RevisionGUID="e80c0c77-84bc-4e08-a2cd-231833b04050" CreationDate="2016-01-28T07:44:21.743" UserId="57" Comment="Rollback to [51e71a6a-b023-4cc9-8301-5cde04064ea7]" Text="[Theoi][1] has an interesting mythical creature here&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;THE ONOKENTAUROS (or Onocentaur) was an African animal with the hybrid form of a man and an ass.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Greeks and Romans later applied the name to a type of ape, possibly the chimpanzee.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And a centaur, as everyone knows, is a man and a horse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Well, onokentaros is pretty much unknown. I searched it up, and it is like, a Japanese blog or something.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To top that, this picture shows the onokentaros with one eye and a bone, like he's ready to smack someone. Not very ape-like.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![onokentaros][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I can't really say I've seen an account for that of Centaurs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does that mean that the Centaurs were also just horses that were seen incorrectly? What were the similarities between the onokentaros and the Centaur, other than appearance? Were they ever seen to interact with each other?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Thaumasios/Onokentauroi.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/FFFmE.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6010" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1383" RevisionGUID="fb8c21f0-b1fb-453f-8b65-1fa16e1278ca" CreationDate="2016-01-28T08:02:10.927" UserId="57" Text="In the beginning of the Lokasenna, Bragi denies Loki a seat with the gods. However, Loki reminds Odin that the two of them had their &quot;blood mixed&quot;, and that Odin had promised that neither of them would drink with the gods unless both of them were welcomed. Odin is then left with little choice but to order Vidar to find a seat for Loki:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Bragi spake:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 8\. &quot;A place and a seat | will the gods prepare  &#xD;&#xA;No more in their midst for thee;  &#xD;&#xA;For the gods know well | what men they wish  &#xD;&#xA;To find at their mighty feasts.&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Loki spake:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 9\. &quot;Remember, Othin, | in olden days  &#xD;&#xA;That we both our blood have mixed;  &#xD;&#xA;Then didst thou promise | no ale to pour,  &#xD;&#xA;Unless it were brought for us both.&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Othin spake: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 10\. &quot;Stand forth then, Vithar, | and let the wolf's father  &#xD;&#xA;Find a seat at our feast;  &#xD;&#xA;Lest evil should Loki | speak aloud  &#xD;&#xA;Here within Ægir's hall.&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Poetic Edda/Lokasenna](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda/Lokasenna), [Wikisource](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikisource).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a story that explains how Odin and Loki came to be blood brothers?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6011" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1383" RevisionGUID="fb8c21f0-b1fb-453f-8b65-1fa16e1278ca" CreationDate="2016-01-28T08:02:10.927" UserId="57" Text="When did Odin and Loki became blood brothers?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6012" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1383" RevisionGUID="fb8c21f0-b1fb-453f-8b65-1fa16e1278ca" CreationDate="2016-01-28T08:02:10.927" UserId="57" Text="|norse|lokasenna|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6013" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="1055" RevisionGUID="9babed1f-57f5-482a-8497-8f61531c292f" CreationDate="2016-01-28T09:23:33.550" UserId="398" Comment="21" />
  <row Id="6014" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1384" RevisionGUID="b03f0ee4-c5b9-4f0d-85ce-54077351a744" CreationDate="2016-01-28T23:47:47.567" UserId="565" Text="Of course, the deeper side of this is the worldview it reflects:  a cosmic determinism and a mechanistic precision.  Even Zeus/Jupiter had to bow before the Fates.  An individual's lot was predetermined at birth;  the process was in most cases impersonal;  and when one's exact time was up, there was little negotiable latitude.  There may also be significance in the 'sacred number' 3:  female gods often come in threes (e.g., Graiae, Graces).  In Indo-European culture, the female is often observed mediating binary oppositions, like life and death. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6015" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1385" RevisionGUID="d5a479f6-9db5-4091-ba9b-9cf543571848" CreationDate="2016-01-29T06:38:33.210" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="In the question [How to search for patterns/motifs in folklore or mythology](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/1262/62), I introduced the concept of motifs/tale-types, which are essentially the folkloristic equivalent of tropes (an example of a motif/tale-type is &quot;man steals fire from gods&quot;).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have a followup question. As folklore/stories are transmitted through time and space (e.g. one community shares a story with another community), I think it's safe to assume that some changes will take place. For example, if a community that believes in dragons shares a story with another community that doesn't believe in dragons, it's possible that the last community might alter the story to replace a dragon with a gigantic squid. The point I'm trying to make is that the unit of motifs/tale-types seems flawed, because the unit of a motif only works if folklore remains constant as it transmits from culture to culture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a concept that would allow a folklorist to capture how folklore/stories change from place to place (and from time to time)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6016" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1385" RevisionGUID="d5a479f6-9db5-4091-ba9b-9cf543571848" CreationDate="2016-01-29T06:38:33.210" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="What concepts exist to describe how motifs change from time and place" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6017" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1385" RevisionGUID="d5a479f6-9db5-4091-ba9b-9cf543571848" CreationDate="2016-01-29T06:38:33.210" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="|folkloristics|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6018" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1386" RevisionGUID="e86b4bd2-2ae0-4c55-a753-a8b7134f2e25" CreationDate="2016-01-29T06:39:38.803" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6019" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1387" RevisionGUID="5d0b62aa-b2d4-4de3-b337-90233c7dbfb7" CreationDate="2016-01-29T06:39:38.803" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6020" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1262" RevisionGUID="64866294-bbbe-4d87-bf6c-cb4865d46f0c" CreationDate="2016-01-29T06:43:42.987" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|comparative|myth-identification|folkloristics|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6021" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1388" RevisionGUID="902d0fb0-2419-46f9-935b-2e184d0e2775" CreationDate="2016-01-29T09:41:31.027" UserId="57" Text="In the Lokasenna, Odin claims that Loki spend 8 winters underground, &quot;milking the cows as a maid&quot; and bearing children:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Loki spake:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 22\. &quot;Be silent, Othin! | not justly thou settest  &#xD;&#xA;The fate of the fight among men;  &#xD;&#xA;Oft gavst thou to him | who deserved not the gift,  &#xD;&#xA;To the baser, the battle's prize.&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Othin spake:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 23\. &quot;Though I gave to him | who deserved not the gift,  &#xD;&#xA;To the baser, the battle's prize;  &#xD;&#xA;Winters eight | wast thou under the earth,  &#xD;&#xA;Milking the cows as a maid,  &#xD;&#xA;(Ay, and babes didst thou bear;  &#xD;&#xA;Unmanly thy soul must seem.)&quot;  &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Poetic Edda/Lokasenna](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda/Lokasenna), [Wikisource](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikisource).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The claim that Loki gave birth is repeated by Njörðr:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Njorth spake:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 33\. &quot;Small ill does it work | though a woman may have  &#xD;&#xA;A lord or a lover or both;  &#xD;&#xA;But a wonder it is | that this womanish god  &#xD;&#xA;Comes hither, though babes he has borne.&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What's the story there? Why was Loki transformed to a cow milking maid, and what caused him (her?) to remain underground? Was it punishment for something he did, or yet another of his crazy adventures? Did he bear any children during that time? And if yes, who was the father?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;PS. I'm aware of Sleipnir, but I don't think that's what Odin and Njörðr are talking about. The circumstances that lead Loki to give birth to the eight-legged steed are quite different." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6022" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1388" RevisionGUID="902d0fb0-2419-46f9-935b-2e184d0e2775" CreationDate="2016-01-29T09:41:31.027" UserId="57" Text="Did Loki spend 8 years underground as a maid, milking cows and bearing children?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6023" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1388" RevisionGUID="902d0fb0-2419-46f9-935b-2e184d0e2775" CreationDate="2016-01-29T09:41:31.027" UserId="57" Text="|norse|lokasenna|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6024" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1389" RevisionGUID="059edc5c-7493-459d-bd66-c85c02024df1" CreationDate="2016-01-29T11:10:51.130" UserId="1163" Text="In greek mythology sphinxes are always female. Are there any text about sphinxes that explain how they breed or how they're born? Or are there male Sphinx?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6025" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1389" RevisionGUID="059edc5c-7493-459d-bd66-c85c02024df1" CreationDate="2016-01-29T11:10:51.130" UserId="1163" Text="Are sphinxes unigender?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6026" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1389" RevisionGUID="059edc5c-7493-459d-bd66-c85c02024df1" CreationDate="2016-01-29T11:10:51.130" UserId="1163" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6027" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1389" RevisionGUID="dd72e6e7-6a22-4739-95a3-973256abdbc9" CreationDate="2016-01-29T12:09:21.023" UserId="57" Comment="edited body" Text="In Greek mythology sphinxes are always female. Are there any text about sphinxes that explain how they breed or how they're born? Or are there male Sphinx?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6028" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1390" RevisionGUID="b04f95b2-e034-435a-b7f9-2a0f2fec230e" CreationDate="2016-01-29T12:47:21.560" UserId="430" Text="There was only a single Sphinx in Greek mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Hesiod in his *Theogony*, she was a daughter of Orthrus and either Echidna or the Chimera, or perhaps even Ceto.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to others, she was a daughter of Echidna and Typhon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore Yes she was always unigender and No there were no male Sphinxes " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6029" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1390" RevisionGUID="f33ddf3d-013e-4712-a0b4-af9421e196c2" CreationDate="2016-01-29T13:00:35.283" UserId="430" Comment="added 800 characters in body" Text="There was only a single Sphinx in Greek mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Hesiod in his *Theogony*, she was a daughter of Orthrus a the Chimera.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But she [Khimaira] also, in love with Orthos, mothered the deadly Sphinx, the bane of the Kadmeians.&#xD;&#xA;- *Theogony 326*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Lasus of Hermione, she was a daughter of Echidna and Typhon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Sphinx was daughter of Ekhidna and Typhon.&#xD;&#xA;- *Lasus, Fragment 706A*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both of these use the singular Sphinx, not multiple Sphinxes&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In all references she is referred to as 'The' not 'A' indicating a unique creature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Oidipos killed not only the Sphinx but also the Teumessian fox&quot; - *Corrina Fragment 672*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;The Sphinx, the watch-dog that presideth over evil days&quot; - *Aeschylus, Fragment 129 Sphinx*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;For whom have the gods and divinities that share their altar and the thronging assembly of men ever admired so much as they honored Oidipous then, when he removed that deadly, man-seizing plague (kêr) [the Sphinx] from our land.&quot;  - *Aeschylus, Seven Against Thebes 773*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore **Yes** she was always unigender and **No** there were no male Sphinxes " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6030" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1390" RevisionGUID="5bcc3c4a-7705-4fa3-b1ab-399b2b72cbe0" CreationDate="2016-01-29T13:15:55.757" UserId="430" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="There was only a single Sphinx in Greek mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Hesiod in his *Theogony*, she was a daughter of Orthrus and the Chimera.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But she [Khimaira] also, in love with Orthos, mothered the deadly Sphinx, the bane of the Kadmeians.&#xD;&#xA;- *Theogony 326*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Lasus of Hermione, she was a daughter of Echidna and Typhon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Sphinx was daughter of Ekhidna and Typhon.&#xD;&#xA;- *Lasus, Fragment 706A*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both of these use the singular Sphinx, not multiple Sphinxes&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In all references she is referred to as 'The' not 'A' indicating a unique creature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Oidipos killed not only the Sphinx but also the Teumessian fox&quot; - *Corrina Fragment 672*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;The Sphinx, the watch-dog that presideth over evil days&quot; - *Aeschylus, Fragment 129 Sphinx*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;For whom have the gods and divinities that share their altar and the thronging assembly of men ever admired so much as they honored Oidipous then, when he removed that deadly, man-seizing plague (kêr) [the Sphinx] from our land.&quot;  - *Aeschylus, Seven Against Thebes 773*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore **Yes** she was always unigender and **No** there were no male Sphinxes " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6031" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1390" RevisionGUID="bf59ca30-24b4-4acc-949f-4de3da0d75df" CreationDate="2016-01-29T13:31:28.833" UserId="430" Comment="added 12 characters in body; added 8 characters in body" Text="There was only a single Sphinx in Greek mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Hesiod in his *Theogony*, she was a daughter of Orthrus and the Chimera.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But she [Khimaira] also, in love with Orthos, mothered the deadly **Sphinx**, the bane of the Kadmeians.&#xD;&#xA;- *Theogony 326*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Lasus of Hermione, she was a daughter of Echidna and Typhon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The **Sphinx** was daughter of Ekhidna and Typhon.&#xD;&#xA;- *Lasus, Fragment 706A*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both of these use the singular Sphinx, not multiple Sphinxes&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In all references she is referred to as 'The' not 'A' indicating a unique creature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Oidipos killed not only **the** Sphinx but also the Teumessian fox&quot; - *Corrina Fragment 672*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;**The** Sphinx, the watch-dog that presideth over evil days&quot; - *Aeschylus, Fragment 129 Sphinx*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;For whom have the gods and divinities that share their altar and the thronging assembly of men ever admired so much as they honored Oidipous then, when he removed that deadly, man-seizing plague (kêr) [**the** Sphinx] from our land.&quot;  - *Aeschylus, Seven Against Thebes 773*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore **Yes** she was always unigender and **No** there were no male Sphinxes " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6032" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="909" RevisionGUID="96adb990-ba24-4abb-b860-eea086ce03c9" CreationDate="2016-01-29T13:52:57.513" UserId="430" Comment="added 20 characters in body" Text="According to a poem by MacLeigh which can be found and discussed in *The Annuals of the Four Masters*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They  fled to Connaught and having seized power from the Milesians in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the 1st century ruled there until the 3rd century, when Aodh son of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Garadh King of Connaught and last king of the Fir Bolg was defeated by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cormac king of Ireland.   The Fir Bolg never had any power in Ireland&#xD;&#xA;&gt; following this and were reduced to peasants of which a great many are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; still (as of 1499) considered to be of Fir Bolg origin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*From The Annals of Ireland Translated from the Original Irish of the Four Masters by Owen Connellan - Reign of Henry VII*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So it would seem they became the lower rungs of society and could assume they are eventually assimilated into &quot;the Irish people&quot; through marriage etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6034" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1391" RevisionGUID="d3c38c56-3973-4b92-9ccb-a0a593c87ce7" CreationDate="2016-01-29T14:39:17.563" UserId="1058" Text="According to an annotation by translator [Henry Adams Bellows][1], &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There exists no account of any incident in which Othin and Loki thus swore blood-brotherhood, but they were so often allied in enterprises that the idea is wholly reasonable. The common process of &quot;mingling blood&quot; was carried out quite literally, and the promise of -which Loki speaks is characteristic of those which, in the sagas, often accompanied the ceremony; cf. Brot af Sigurtharkvithu.&#xD;&#xA;(http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe10.htm#page_151)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Assuming this information is correct, **there is no extant story for this.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Adams_Bellows_(businessman)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6035" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1392" RevisionGUID="a4510c32-f340-4bc6-a5b2-4565f3f59a48" CreationDate="2016-01-29T23:24:51.113" UserId="967" Text="Well, in Christianity,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For by [God] all things were created.(1 Colossians 1:16)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If God created everything, God created angels.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't know about Judiasm, or Islam, but one Abrahamic faith should speak for all three." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6036" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1378" RevisionGUID="238c054e-988f-481c-9780-2847a0ce40cd" CreationDate="2016-01-29T23:56:09.410" UserId="967" Comment="tags- its not identifying a myth, its origins" Text="|origins|abrahamic-religions|angels|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6037" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1378" RevisionGUID="238c054e-988f-481c-9780-2847a0ce40cd" CreationDate="2016-01-29T23:56:09.410" Comment="Proposed by 967 approved by 183 edit id of 292" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6038" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1374" RevisionGUID="06ed0d38-574f-4c67-b267-a08f81b2a134" CreationDate="2016-01-29T23:56:13.977" UserId="398" Comment="added 55 characters in body" Text="For topics on epic poetry outside the Greek epic cycle." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6039" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1374" RevisionGUID="06ed0d38-574f-4c67-b267-a08f81b2a134" CreationDate="2016-01-29T23:56:13.977" Comment="Proposed by 398 approved by 42, 183 edit id of 282" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6040" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1387" RevisionGUID="3015fc5f-0fda-4d1a-bf8b-3235182219db" CreationDate="2016-01-29T23:56:16.793" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 106 characters in body" Text="For questions about the study of culture (e.g. stories) that is transmitted from individual to individual." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6041" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1387" RevisionGUID="3015fc5f-0fda-4d1a-bf8b-3235182219db" CreationDate="2016-01-29T23:56:16.793" Comment="Proposed by 62 approved by 183 edit id of 291" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6042" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1386" RevisionGUID="ede01917-c1c3-493e-ac17-0829c613187f" CreationDate="2016-01-29T23:56:22.410" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 170 characters in body" Text="Folkloristics is an academic discipline devoted to the study of folklore. Folklore is defined as culture that is transmitted from individual to individual (e.g. a rumor)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6043" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1386" RevisionGUID="ede01917-c1c3-493e-ac17-0829c613187f" CreationDate="2016-01-29T23:56:22.410" Comment="Proposed by 62 approved by 183 edit id of 290" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6044" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1393" RevisionGUID="80aacd63-3ca1-4c54-b164-76f90a544273" CreationDate="2016-01-30T00:20:36.187" UserId="183" Text="Quoting from a footnote on [one version of the Lokasenna](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe10.htm#page_151),&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There is no other reference to Loki's having spent eight years underground, or to his cow-milking. On one occasion, however, he did bear offspring. A giant had undertaken to build the gods a fortress, his reward being Freyja and the sun and moon, provided the work was done by a given time. His sole helper was his horse, Svathilfari. The work being nearly done, and the gods fearing to lose Freyja and the sun and moon, Loki [fp. 160] turned himself into a mare, and so effectually distracted Svathilfari from his task that shortly afterwards Loki gave birth to Othin's eight-legged horse, Sleipnir. In such contests of abuse a man was not infrequently taunted with having borne children; cf. Helgakvitha Hundingsbana I, 39-45. One or two of the last three lines may be spurious.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reference here is to a section of [the Gylfaginning](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre04.htm), as told by Hárr, which speaks of this and the birth of Sleipnir, but it appears that you were already aware of that.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason I'm fairly certain that this is the event Othin refers to (besides the footnote saying that this is the only version) is that the Lokasenna is full of taunts like this, to stories that are never elaborated upon. These are examples of [flyting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flyting), an exchange of insults common in Norse mythology and literature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Flyting often involved outright lying as part of taunts. [Hárbarðsljóð](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe08.htm), an exchange between Thor and a ferryman named Hárbarðr (thought to maybe be Odin or Loki!) starts out as boasts, mostly coming from Hárbarðr, but then devolves into insults, some of which are likely lies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even more interesting, there are several instances of each person challenging the other's manhood:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Harbarth spake:  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 48. &quot;Sif has a lover at home, | and him shouldst thou meet;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; More fitting it were | on him to put forth thy strength.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; . . .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thor spake:  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 51. &quot;Thou womanish Harbarth! | here hast thou held me too long.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The former is an accusation that Sif is not satisfied with Thor and has another, manlier lover. The latter is an outright insult.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The point of all this is that it seems highly likely that the passages you quoted were simple examples of flyting: Either references to obscure events or outright lies designed to put down the opponent. The anecdote about bearing children is most likely just another taunt about not being manly. Odin came up with it, and Njörðr picked it up and used it again." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6045" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1394" RevisionGUID="d6e1e400-31c5-4bcc-b524-f4ccf475c042" CreationDate="2016-01-30T03:34:37.450" UserId="1170" Text="Is there a myth of some sort of creature/human living in the sun (preferably Greek)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6046" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1394" RevisionGUID="d6e1e400-31c5-4bcc-b524-f4ccf475c042" CreationDate="2016-01-30T03:34:37.450" UserId="1170" Text="Is there a myth of a god/creature/human living in the sun?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6047" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1394" RevisionGUID="d6e1e400-31c5-4bcc-b524-f4ccf475c042" CreationDate="2016-01-30T03:34:37.450" UserId="1170" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|gods|sun|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6048" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1395" RevisionGUID="1239f3dd-b2f4-468c-99bd-ed6904b085f6" CreationDate="2016-01-30T10:47:44.237" UserId="57" Text="The Borjgali is a Georgian solar symbol:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Borjgali (Georgian: ბორჯღალი; also Borjgala or Borjgalo) is a Georgian symbol of the Sun with seven rotating wings over the Christian Tree of Life and is related to the Mesopotamian symbols of eternity. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ![Borjgali](https://i.stack.imgur.com/7laKe.png)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Borjgali, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Borjgali&amp;oldid=676638846 (last visited Jan. 30, 2016).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately, the claim that the symbol is somehow related to Mesopotamian symbols of eternity is unsourced. One eternity symbol that is broadly similar to the Borjgali is [that of neighboring Armenia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_eternity_sign). However, Armenia is not a Mesopotamian culture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How is the Borjgali related to Mesopotamian symbols of eternity? And which symbols might those be?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6049" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1395" RevisionGUID="1239f3dd-b2f4-468c-99bd-ed6904b085f6" CreationDate="2016-01-30T10:47:44.237" UserId="57" Text="How is the Borjgali related to Mesopotamian symbols of eternity?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6050" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1395" RevisionGUID="1239f3dd-b2f4-468c-99bd-ed6904b085f6" CreationDate="2016-01-30T10:47:44.237" UserId="57" Text="|mesopotamia|symbolism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6051" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="943" RevisionGUID="23706684-2660-4ccf-94a1-2a41210235a5" CreationDate="2016-01-30T11:11:47.330" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|christianity|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6052" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="27" RevisionGUID="aa6c51a0-06a9-4e17-99f6-85c46ba85041" CreationDate="2016-01-30T11:17:07.853" UserId="57" Comment="added 25 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="The creation myths of the Abrahamic religions declares humanity's protoplasts to be [Adam and Eve](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_and_Eve). Norse lore declares them to be [Ask and Embla](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ask_and_Embla).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Linguistically, these seem to be fairly similar names. Is there actually a connection there, or is it just a coincidence?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6053" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="27" RevisionGUID="aa6c51a0-06a9-4e17-99f6-85c46ba85041" CreationDate="2016-01-30T11:17:07.853" UserId="57" Comment="added 25 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Is there a connection between Adam and Eve, and Ask and Embla?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6054" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="27" RevisionGUID="aa6c51a0-06a9-4e17-99f6-85c46ba85041" CreationDate="2016-01-30T11:17:07.853" UserId="57" Comment="added 25 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|norse|comparative|abrahamic-religions|linguistics|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6055" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1396" RevisionGUID="80e11de5-ad98-40d5-baa4-28b822ab9826" CreationDate="2016-01-30T12:01:32.903" UserId="201" Text="So far as I know the Greco-Roman myths about the sun consistently refer to it as an object, usually the wheel of a chariot which is handled by Apollo or Helios. The Greeks didn't personify or anthropomorphize the sun. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6057" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1398" RevisionGUID="9c4a6caa-d95c-4619-8238-f87777c11872" CreationDate="2016-01-30T14:57:34.527" UserId="967" Text="When the blood of Ouranos entered the ocean, it made **three** seasons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then, when Demeter started mourning for Persephone, a new season appears, winter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does that mean that Autumn or Spring had a half year? Or was there a new season completely? &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6058" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1398" RevisionGUID="9c4a6caa-d95c-4619-8238-f87777c11872" CreationDate="2016-01-30T14:57:34.527" UserId="967" Text="Isn't the year split into four sections?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6059" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1398" RevisionGUID="9c4a6caa-d95c-4619-8238-f87777c11872" CreationDate="2016-01-30T14:57:34.527" UserId="967" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6060" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="1135" RevisionGUID="7b5db8a7-272a-42e8-958c-e9170f34d67d" CreationDate="2016-01-30T17:36:28.363" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="22" />
  <row Id="6068" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1398" RevisionGUID="367a11a3-7935-4758-a1fd-15df40a05510" CreationDate="2016-01-30T20:03:21.117" UserId="967" Comment="added 14 characters in body" Text="There were **three** Horai.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then, when Demeter started mourning for Persephone, a new season appears (because plants can't grow anymore, and its not autumn.) , winter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does that mean that Autumn or Spring had a half year? Or was there a new season completely? &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6069" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1386" RevisionGUID="ff6be569-1668-4d8d-ad88-b1d01e9ac94d" CreationDate="2016-01-30T20:22:43.080" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 22 characters in body" Text="Folkloristics is an academic discipline devoted to the study of folklore. Folklore is the traditional beliefs and stories of a community or culture." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6070" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1387" RevisionGUID="1c688faa-2e97-4d91-acba-f9317811d12c" CreationDate="2016-01-30T20:22:43.080" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 11 characters in body" Text="For questions about the study of the traditional beliefs and stories of a community or culture." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6071" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1380" RevisionGUID="692b1abf-a46e-4a4b-b126-145ddd0241bb" CreationDate="2016-01-30T20:46:59.193" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 5 characters in body; edited title" Text="According to [theoi.com][1], Parcae/Moirai means &quot;parts&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Their name means &quot;Parts.&quot; &quot;Shares&quot; or &quot;Alottted Portions.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a symbolism behind this? Is it because Fate was split into 3?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Moirai.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1362/are-moirai-parcae-mortal" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6072" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1380" RevisionGUID="692b1abf-a46e-4a4b-b126-145ddd0241bb" CreationDate="2016-01-30T20:46:59.193" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 5 characters in body; edited title" Text="What is the symbolism of the name of the Parcae?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6073" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1380" RevisionGUID="692b1abf-a46e-4a4b-b126-145ddd0241bb" CreationDate="2016-01-30T20:46:59.193" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 5 characters in body; edited title" Text="|greek|symbolism|fates|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6074" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="605" RevisionGUID="b88533d5-c0e0-4833-aa18-ce8e8349f979" CreationDate="2016-01-31T10:16:20.753" UserId="57" Comment="The combination of &quot;old testament&quot; in the title and &quot;torah&quot; in the tags seems a bit bizarre. " Text="In Leviticus, who or what is Azazel?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6075" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="605" RevisionGUID="b88533d5-c0e0-4833-aa18-ce8e8349f979" CreationDate="2016-01-31T10:16:20.753" UserId="57" Comment="The combination of &quot;old testament&quot; in the title and &quot;torah&quot; in the tags seems a bit bizarre. " Text="|ceremonies|torah|bible|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6076" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1401" RevisionGUID="4d5c3842-1482-4c11-8107-0f49475b9ec8" CreationDate="2016-01-31T10:18:20.547" UserId="57" Text="It seems that every time Poseidon was in contest with another Olympian, he came up short. First, he lost dominion over the heavens to Zeus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But when Zeus was full-grown, he took Metis, daughter of Ocean, to help him, and she gave Cronus a drug to swallow, which forced him to disgorge first the stone and then the children whom he had swallowed, and with their aid Zeus waged the war against Cronus and the Titans. They fought for ten years, and Earth prophesied victory to Zeus if he should have as allies those who had been hurled down to Tartarus. So he slew their jailoress Campe, and loosed their bonds. And the Cyclopes then gave Zeus thunder and lightning and a thunderbolt, and on Pluto they bestowed a helmet and on Poseidon a trident. Armed with these weapons the gods overcame the Titans, shut them up in Tartarus, and appointed the Hundred-handers their guards; but they themselves cast lots for the sovereignty, and to Zeus was allotted the dominion of the sky, to Poseidon the dominion of the sea, and to Pluto the dominion in Hades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; Source: [Apollodorus, Library, 1.2.1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D2%3Asection%3D1) &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then he lost the contest for Athens to Athena:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cecrops, a son of the soil, with a body compounded of man and serpent, was the first king of Attica, and the country which was formerly called Acte he named Cecropia after himself. In his time, they say, the gods resolved to take possession of cities in which each of them should receive his own peculiar worship. So Poseidon was the first that came to Attica, and with a blow of his trident on the middle of the acropolis, he produced a sea which they now call Erechtheis. After him came Athena, and, having called on Cecrops to witness her act of taking possession, she planted an olive tree, which is still shown in the Pandrosium. But when the two strove for possession of the country, Zeus parted them and appointed arbiters, not, as some have affirmed, Cecrops and Cranaus, nor yet Erysichthon, but the twelve gods. And in accordance with their verdict the country was adjudged to Athena, because Cecrops bore witness that she had been the first to plant the olive. Athena, therefore, called the city Athens after herself, and Poseidon in hot anger flooded the Thriasian plain and laid Attica under the sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Apollodorus, Library, 3.14.1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0548.tlg001.perseus-eng1:3.14.1)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And Athens wasn't even the only city the God of the Sea failed to get a hold of, his claim for Argos was denied by Hera: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Here is a sanctuary of Poseidon, surnamed Prosclystius (Flooder), for they say that Poseidon inundated the greater part of the country because Inachus and his assessors decided that the land belonged to Hera and not to him. Now it was Hera who induced Poseidon to send the sea back, but the Argives made a sanctuary to Poseidon Prosclystius at the spot where the tide ebbed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Pausanias, Description of Greece, 2.22.4](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0525.tlg001.perseus-eng1:2.22.4)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Furthermore, the Earth Shaker didn't have much luck in a courtroom either: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cecrops married Agraulus, daughter of Actaeus, and had a son Erysichthon, who departed this life childless; and Cecrops had daughters, Agraulus, Herse, and Pandrosus. Agraulus had a daughter Alcippe by Ares. In attempting to violate Alcippe, Halirrhothius, son of Poseidon and a nymph Euryte, was detected and killed by Ares. Impeached by Poseidon, Ares was tried in the Areopagus before the twelve gods, and was acquitted.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Source: [Apollodorus, Library, 3.14.2](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0548.tlg001.perseus-eng1:3.14.2)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Last but not least, not only was Poseidon on the losing side of the Trojan War, but he was denied revenge on Odysseus for blinding his son Polyphemus: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Zeus, the cloud-gatherer, answered her and said: “My child, what a word has escaped the barrier of thy teeth? How should I, then, forget godlike Odysseus, who is beyond all mortals in wisdom, and beyond all has paid sacrifice to the immortal gods, who hold broad heaven? Nay, it is Poseidon, the earth-enfolder, who is ever filled with stubborn wrath because of the Cyclops, whom Odysseus blinded of his eye— even the godlike Polyphemus, whose might is greatest among all the Cyclopes; and the nymph Thoosa bore him, daughter of Phorcys who rules over the unresting sea; for in the hollow caves she lay with Poseidon. From that time forth Poseidon, the earth-shaker, does not indeed slay Odysseus, but makes him a wanderer from his native land. But come, let us who are here all take thought of his return, that he may come home; and Poseidon will let go his anger, for he will in no wise be able, against all the immortal gods and in their despite, to contend alone.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Homer, Odyssey, Book 1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0012.tlg002.perseus-eng1:1.44-1.79)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;It seems like the poor chap was unable to catch a break. Is this really the case? Has Poseidon ever won a dispute with another Olympian?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6077" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1401" RevisionGUID="4d5c3842-1482-4c11-8107-0f49475b9ec8" CreationDate="2016-01-31T10:18:20.547" UserId="57" Text="Has Poseidon ever won a dispute with another Olympian?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6078" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1401" RevisionGUID="4d5c3842-1482-4c11-8107-0f49475b9ec8" CreationDate="2016-01-31T10:18:20.547" UserId="57" Text="|greek|olympians|poseidon|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6079" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="77" RevisionGUID="71a2fe7c-ada4-426b-a556-2a39de2fe463" CreationDate="2016-01-31T10:53:09.020" UserId="57" Comment="added 156 characters in body" Text="There is some science backing this. In 1966 Japan began testing birth control and abortion which led to the decline of births. However they did this even more with women because there is an old omen that says that women born on this year would be impossible to marry off.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The paper [&quot;Increased induced abortion rate in 1966, an aspect of a Japanese folk superstition&quot;][1], published in the April 1975 issue of Annals of Human Biology discusses this: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A decrease of about 463 000 live births occurred in Japan in 1966, constituting a sharp departure from the linear trend before and after. This was partly caused by contraception and partly by induced abortion. The induced abortion rate, 43.1 per 1000 births in the year (a total of 65 000), was significantly higher than the 30.6 expected (46.200 total) from the regression trend computed from the years 1963 to 1969. No epidemics were reported in 1966 which might have caused the increase in abortion. It is more likely to be due to observance of Hinoe-Uma (Elder Fire-Horse), which comes round every sixty years by zodiac almanac. This event represents a superstition observed only by the Japanese, in which it is a bad omen for female babies to be born in the year. 1966 was the most recent year of Hinoe-Uma.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This led to the abortion rate of women to almost double this year.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1052742" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6080" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1401" RevisionGUID="40bbb20a-6f9d-4d5a-ba7d-6e8e213c9463" CreationDate="2016-01-31T11:56:07.890" UserId="57" Comment="well, that was embarrassing. " Text="It seems that every time Poseidon was in contest with another Olympian, he came up short. First, he lost dominion over the heavens to Zeus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But when Zeus was full-grown, he took Metis, daughter of Ocean, to help him, and she gave Cronus a drug to swallow, which forced him to disgorge first the stone and then the children whom he had swallowed, and with their aid Zeus waged the war against Cronus and the Titans. They fought for ten years, and Earth prophesied victory to Zeus if he should have as allies those who had been hurled down to Tartarus. So he slew their jailoress Campe, and loosed their bonds. And the Cyclopes then gave Zeus thunder and lightning and a thunderbolt, and on Pluto they bestowed a helmet and on Poseidon a trident. Armed with these weapons the gods overcame the Titans, shut them up in Tartarus, and appointed the Hundred-handers their guards; but they themselves cast lots for the sovereignty, and to Zeus was allotted the dominion of the sky, to Poseidon the dominion of the sea, and to Pluto the dominion in Hades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; Source: [Apollodorus, Library, 1.2.1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D2%3Asection%3D1) &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then he lost the contest for Athens to Athena:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cecrops, a son of the soil, with a body compounded of man and serpent, was the first king of Attica, and the country which was formerly called Acte he named Cecropia after himself. In his time, they say, the gods resolved to take possession of cities in which each of them should receive his own peculiar worship. So Poseidon was the first that came to Attica, and with a blow of his trident on the middle of the acropolis, he produced a sea which they now call Erechtheis. After him came Athena, and, having called on Cecrops to witness her act of taking possession, she planted an olive tree, which is still shown in the Pandrosium. But when the two strove for possession of the country, Zeus parted them and appointed arbiters, not, as some have affirmed, Cecrops and Cranaus, nor yet Erysichthon, but the twelve gods. And in accordance with their verdict the country was adjudged to Athena, because Cecrops bore witness that she had been the first to plant the olive. Athena, therefore, called the city Athens after herself, and Poseidon in hot anger flooded the Thriasian plain and laid Attica under the sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Apollodorus, Library, 3.14.1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0548.tlg001.perseus-eng1:3.14.1)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And Athens wasn't even the only city the God of the Sea failed to get a hold of, his claim for Argos was denied by Hera: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Here is a sanctuary of Poseidon, surnamed Prosclystius (Flooder), for they say that Poseidon inundated the greater part of the country because Inachus and his assessors decided that the land belonged to Hera and not to him. Now it was Hera who induced Poseidon to send the sea back, but the Argives made a sanctuary to Poseidon Prosclystius at the spot where the tide ebbed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Pausanias, Description of Greece, 2.22.4](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0525.tlg001.perseus-eng1:2.22.4)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Furthermore, the Earth Shaker didn't have much luck in a courtroom either: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cecrops married Agraulus, daughter of Actaeus, and had a son Erysichthon, who departed this life childless; and Cecrops had daughters, Agraulus, Herse, and Pandrosus. Agraulus had a daughter Alcippe by Ares. In attempting to violate Alcippe, Halirrhothius, son of Poseidon and a nymph Euryte, was detected and killed by Ares. Impeached by Poseidon, Ares was tried in the Areopagus before the twelve gods, and was acquitted.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Source: [Apollodorus, Library, 3.14.2](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0548.tlg001.perseus-eng1:3.14.2)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Last but not least, Poseidon was denied revenge on Odysseus for blinding his son Polyphemus: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Zeus, the cloud-gatherer, answered her and said: “My child, what a word has escaped the barrier of thy teeth? How should I, then, forget godlike Odysseus, who is beyond all mortals in wisdom, and beyond all has paid sacrifice to the immortal gods, who hold broad heaven? Nay, it is Poseidon, the earth-enfolder, who is ever filled with stubborn wrath because of the Cyclops, whom Odysseus blinded of his eye— even the godlike Polyphemus, whose might is greatest among all the Cyclopes; and the nymph Thoosa bore him, daughter of Phorcys who rules over the unresting sea; for in the hollow caves she lay with Poseidon. From that time forth Poseidon, the earth-shaker, does not indeed slay Odysseus, but makes him a wanderer from his native land. But come, let us who are here all take thought of his return, that he may come home; and Poseidon will let go his anger, for he will in no wise be able, against all the immortal gods and in their despite, to contend alone.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Homer, Odyssey, Book 1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0012.tlg002.perseus-eng1:1.44-1.79)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;It seems like the poor chap was unable to catch a break. Is this really the case? Has Poseidon ever won a dispute with another Olympian?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6081" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1401" RevisionGUID="419af802-293a-4540-be21-76edf75495a3" CreationDate="2016-01-31T12:21:39.197" UserId="57" Comment="added 27 characters in body" Text="It seems that every time Poseidon was in contest with another Olympian, he came up short. First, he lost dominion over the heavens to Zeus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But when Zeus was full-grown, he took Metis, daughter of Ocean, to help him, and she gave Cronus a drug to swallow, which forced him to disgorge first the stone and then the children whom he had swallowed, and with their aid Zeus waged the war against Cronus and the Titans. They fought for ten years, and Earth prophesied victory to Zeus if he should have as allies those who had been hurled down to Tartarus. So he slew their jailoress Campe, and loosed their bonds. And the Cyclopes then gave Zeus thunder and lightning and a thunderbolt, and on Pluto they bestowed a helmet and on Poseidon a trident. Armed with these weapons the gods overcame the Titans, shut them up in Tartarus, and appointed the Hundred-handers their guards; but they themselves cast lots for the sovereignty, and to Zeus was allotted the dominion of the sky, to Poseidon the dominion of the sea, and to Pluto the dominion in Hades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; Source: [Apollodorus, Library, 1.2.1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D2%3Asection%3D1) &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then he lost the contest for Athens to Athena:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cecrops, a son of the soil, with a body compounded of man and serpent, was the first king of Attica, and the country which was formerly called Acte he named Cecropia after himself. In his time, they say, the gods resolved to take possession of cities in which each of them should receive his own peculiar worship. So Poseidon was the first that came to Attica, and with a blow of his trident on the middle of the acropolis, he produced a sea which they now call Erechtheis. After him came Athena, and, having called on Cecrops to witness her act of taking possession, she planted an olive tree, which is still shown in the Pandrosium. But when the two strove for possession of the country, Zeus parted them and appointed arbiters, not, as some have affirmed, Cecrops and Cranaus, nor yet Erysichthon, but the twelve gods. And in accordance with their verdict the country was adjudged to Athena, because Cecrops bore witness that she had been the first to plant the olive. Athena, therefore, called the city Athens after herself, and Poseidon in hot anger flooded the Thriasian plain and laid Attica under the sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Apollodorus, Library, 3.14.1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0548.tlg001.perseus-eng1:3.14.1)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And Athens wasn't even the only city the God of the Sea failed to get a hold of, his claim for Argos was denied by Hera: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Here is a sanctuary of Poseidon, surnamed Prosclystius (Flooder), for they say that Poseidon inundated the greater part of the country because Inachus and his assessors decided that the land belonged to Hera and not to him. Now it was Hera who induced Poseidon to send the sea back, but the Argives made a sanctuary to Poseidon Prosclystius at the spot where the tide ebbed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Pausanias, Description of Greece, 2.22.4](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0525.tlg001.perseus-eng1:2.22.4)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Furthermore, the Earth Shaker didn't have much luck in a courtroom either: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cecrops married Agraulus, daughter of Actaeus, and had a son Erysichthon, who departed this life childless; and Cecrops had daughters, Agraulus, Herse, and Pandrosus. Agraulus had a daughter Alcippe by Ares. In attempting to violate Alcippe, Halirrhothius, son of Poseidon and a nymph Euryte, was detected and killed by Ares. Impeached by Poseidon, Ares was tried in the Areopagus before the twelve gods, and was acquitted.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Source: [Apollodorus, Library, 3.14.2](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0548.tlg001.perseus-eng1:3.14.2)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Last but not least, Poseidon was asked to put aside his anger and spare Odysseus' life for blinding his son Polyphemus: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Zeus, the cloud-gatherer, answered her and said: “My child, what a word has escaped the barrier of thy teeth? How should I, then, forget godlike Odysseus, who is beyond all mortals in wisdom, and beyond all has paid sacrifice to the immortal gods, who hold broad heaven? Nay, it is Poseidon, the earth-enfolder, who is ever filled with stubborn wrath because of the Cyclops, whom Odysseus blinded of his eye— even the godlike Polyphemus, whose might is greatest among all the Cyclopes; and the nymph Thoosa bore him, daughter of Phorcys who rules over the unresting sea; for in the hollow caves she lay with Poseidon. From that time forth Poseidon, the earth-shaker, does not indeed slay Odysseus, but makes him a wanderer from his native land. But come, let us who are here all take thought of his return, that he may come home; and Poseidon will let go his anger, for he will in no wise be able, against all the immortal gods and in their despite, to contend alone.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Homer, Odyssey, Book 1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0012.tlg002.perseus-eng1:1.44-1.79)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;It seems like the poor chap was unable to catch a break. Is this really the case? Has Poseidon ever won a dispute with another Olympian?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6083" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1402" RevisionGUID="990feaab-3078-4346-8d9b-0d8f3a051bc5" CreationDate="2016-01-31T16:55:05.750" UserId="1177" Text="A male sphinx is called ἀνδρόσφιγξ &quot;Androsphinx&quot; (Herodotus 2.175)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6087" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1403" RevisionGUID="011e043f-3203-4cfd-b30f-6ba728e1098a" CreationDate="2016-01-31T18:06:23.320" UserId="398" Text="According to Eugenia Russell in her 2013 monograph *[Literature and Culture in Late Byzantine Thessalonica](https://books.google.com/books?id=-QBMAQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PR21)* (Bloomsbury Academic, pp. xxi–xxii), the origin of the story is rather late:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The legend of the beautiful mermaid is derived from a post-Byzantine romance Ἡ Φυλλάδα του Μεγαλέξαντρου [hee feelada too Megalexantroo, &quot;The Novella of Alexander the Great&quot; - CW],' a well-liked text among Greeks during the Ottoman period." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6088" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="738" RevisionGUID="3dcb8d43-07b6-423b-874d-833e2cbff6e9" CreationDate="2016-01-31T18:15:28.487" UserId="398" Comment="added 38 characters in body" Text="Who were the Cimmerians, the Hyperboreans, and the Ethiopians mentioned in Greek mythological texts? Were they races of men or something else? The Cimmerians lived in endless night while the Hyperboreans who lived across Ocean were exceedingly fortunate. In that race sickness and deathly old age had no part, and the Ethiopians the Gods held in such favor that they would sit with them at joyful banquets in their halls. The myth speaks about them being races that were here before mankind so the question is Were they races of man or some other type of race?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6089" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="739" RevisionGUID="7b54d33f-8b89-421c-9318-53e3e229a9d0" CreationDate="2016-01-31T20:13:10.270" UserId="398" Comment="feel free to revert edits." Text="I can't speak for the Cimmerians, but the Hyperboreans were legendary. They lived &quot;beyond the north wind&quot; in a [land in the extreme far north][1], with huge mountains in the frigid land to their south. They supposedly built the [second temple][2] at Delphi, from feathers and beeswax, and sent tribute to Apollo's temple at Delos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There has been much speculation that the Hyperboreans were the Norse or [British][3] people, and [this paper][4] also mentions the Balkans, because of the mountains. As a side note, however, there is a similar story in Norse myth about a place called Glaesisvellir at the very end of Jotunheim, the remote, barren land of the giants (jotuns), which appears in several sagas and the [History of the Danes][5]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Phylos/Hyperborea.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/Pausanias10A.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://historyplanet.wordpress.com/2010/08/24/hyperboria/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.escholar.manchester.ac.uk/api/datastream?publicationPid=uk-ac-man-scw:1m1174&amp;datastreamId=POST-PEER-REVIEW-PUBLISHERS-DOCUMENT.PDF&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&amp;rct=j&amp;q=&amp;esrc=s&amp;source=web&amp;cd=3&amp;ved=0CCMQFjAC&amp;url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F620633%2Fvpp_ec_%25C3%25BE%25C3%25A9r_verp_oc_%25C3%25A1_avstr_vega_throwing_up_in_%25C3%2586gir_s_hall&amp;ei=YkhaVcHFIuaHsQStoYHACA&amp;usg=AFQjCNENnl00LKRjMdmQVli5ZyEnSPpMfw&amp;sig2=LbJiTovTChZ63ZdX3hKF3Q&amp;bvm=bv.93564037,d.ZGU" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6090" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1357" RevisionGUID="38de810d-90ac-44fb-ad4d-7ee102e3fd09" CreationDate="2016-01-31T20:19:29.687" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|folklore|superstition|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6091" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1404" RevisionGUID="a141a92d-803a-4061-ba70-366986d3a8db" CreationDate="2016-01-31T21:23:06.650" UserId="967" Text="A [technical one][1]; when he teams up with Hera and Athena and traps Zeus and refuses to let him free. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;from Kronos’ son [Zeus] the dark-misted, that time when all the other Olympian gods sought to bind him, Hera and Poseidon and Pallas Athene.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But that is three gods, not just Poseidon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So if you don't count that, I would tend to say no.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/HeraMyths.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6093" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="1328" RevisionGUID="8eaa44fe-b70b-4537-a2fa-84e87fe8bb4d" CreationDate="2016-02-01T05:28:09.303" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="23" />
  <row Id="6094" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="709" RevisionGUID="446a7ac6-f1f8-4a24-8520-28af4fefcf64" CreationDate="2016-02-01T05:30:30.040" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="24" />
  <row Id="6096" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1406" RevisionGUID="6247a622-7587-4335-8452-34564ba01e02" CreationDate="2016-02-01T08:29:07.990" UserId="57" Text="Pausanias, in his Description of Greece mentions that Hypnos (the personification of sleep) was particularly friendly with the Muses: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [[Paus. 2.31.3](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0525.tlg001.perseus-eng1:2.31.3)] Not far from the Muses' Hall is an old altar, which also, according to report, was dedicated by Ardalus. Upon it they sacrifice to the Muses and to Sleep, saying that Sleep is the god that is dearest to the Muses.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pausanias does sometimes take care to reference his mythological sources. For example, when he mentions that Hypnos and Thanatos (the personification of death) are brothers, he identifies the Iliad as the source of the tale. Unfortunately, that isn't the case with the relationship between Hypnos and the Muses.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do we know of a tale that would explain how Hypnos came to be the dearest to the Muses?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6097" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1406" RevisionGUID="6247a622-7587-4335-8452-34564ba01e02" CreationDate="2016-02-01T08:29:07.990" UserId="57" Text="How did Hypnos became associated with the Muses?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6098" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1406" RevisionGUID="6247a622-7587-4335-8452-34564ba01e02" CreationDate="2016-02-01T08:29:07.990" UserId="57" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6099" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1394" RevisionGUID="b7704a08-f549-47d2-84f5-ee8cff49dc59" CreationDate="2016-02-01T08:35:04.347" UserId="57" Comment="added 4 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Is there a Greek myth of some sort of a god, human, or other creature living in the sun?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6100" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1394" RevisionGUID="b7704a08-f549-47d2-84f5-ee8cff49dc59" CreationDate="2016-02-01T08:35:04.347" UserId="57" Comment="added 4 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Is there a myth of someone living in the sun?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6101" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1394" RevisionGUID="b7704a08-f549-47d2-84f5-ee8cff49dc59" CreationDate="2016-02-01T08:35:04.347" UserId="57" Comment="added 4 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|myth-identification|sun|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6102" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1091" RevisionGUID="3f095189-a6b4-4022-9764-eb610912bd1a" CreationDate="2016-02-01T12:44:03.000" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 24 characters in body" Text="Not having received an answer to my question here, I decided to write up my own thoughts on it. My explanation is too long to post here, so I posted it on [my blog][1]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In summary, while Frazer had originally oversimplified and overstated his case for dying and rising gods, there was then an overreaction against the idea in the mid to late 20th century, and now I think the pendulum has properly swung back to a middle ground, on the basis of sound scholarly research. Second, while I don't think the dying-and-rising gods motif can explain the *origin* of the notion of Christ's resurrection in Palestine among his followers, it may have played a role in contributing to the *later spread and popularity* of Christianity in the Roman empire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythologymatters.wordpress.com/2015/08/29/are-dying-and-rising-gods-dead/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6103" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="971" RevisionGUID="dad70da1-2844-46b2-a3b8-01031a3b4587" CreationDate="2016-02-01T12:47:10.663" UserId="57" Comment="Please do not use signatures, taglines, or greetings. See our help center for more details: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/help/behavior" Text="It is necessary to make some distinctions here. While the word &quot;el&quot; is a generic word for a god, it is also the proper name for the head of the Canaanite pantheon, El. His origins are most directly from the Amorite god Amurru, but going further back he shared traits with Anue (An) and Ea (Enki). In Ugarit he was viewed as the creator god and, with his wife Asherah, fathered the other Canaanite gods and goddesses that we see, for example, in the Ugaritic myths including the Keret myth that you mention.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The answer to your question whether this is the same god as El in the Bible gets more complicated. The Canaanite El was originally the chief god in Palestine, where Israel later emerged. Yahweh, as the Bible itself attests several times (Deut. 33:2-3; Judg. 5:4-5; Hab. 3:3, 7; Ps. 68:8-9; Zech. 9:14), was originally from Seir (or Teman) in the Midian, which spans the east and west sides of the Araba valley in Sinai. Once Yahweh arrived in Palestine from migrants from the Midian (which echoes the stories in Exodus and Numbers), he had to compete for supremacy with the native Canaanite gods. Over time, El was merged into Yahweh, the survivor. Since this merger took place only over time, that's why we see so many references in the Hebrew Bible where Yahweh and El are intended as the same, or more accurately are retroactively explained as being the same. The issue is also confused because the different authors of the Hebrew Bible presenting different positions on this question. Thus, according to one version, the Hebrew god is announced as Yahweh (being the same as the god of Abraham which was El) to Moses at the burning bush (Exodus 3:15, by the Elohist author), which implies that Yahweh was not previously known to the Hebrews. But another author (known as the Yahwist, or J) calls God Yahweh even in the Eden story, and in Genesis 4:26 says that God was known as Yahweh almost from the beginning of humankind. This difference may reflect a situation where the traditional El remained strong in the northern kingdom of Israel, whereas the upstart god Yahweh was being promoted in Judah.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For further reference, this process of merger is discussed well in Mark Smith's book entitled The Early History of God.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a side note, El's wife Asherah was inherited by Yahweh as a result of their merger. That too became a big issue for proponents of official Temple religion as time went on, as they tried to eliminate her." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6104" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="963" RevisionGUID="960b57fe-372b-4660-a693-6568e60a28dc" CreationDate="2016-02-01T12:47:42.383" UserId="57" Comment="Please do not use signatures, taglines, or greetings. See our help center for more details: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/help/behavior" Text="This idea based on the Sumerian myth known as *Enki and Ninhursag* (see *ANET,* pp. 37-41) keeps popping up, especially in popular literature and on the internet. Kramer, however, did give credence to it, as mentioned by the blogger to whom you linked (see Kramer's *History Begins at Sumer,* pp. 143-44). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To make a long story short, the god Enki out of curiosity eats 8 plants in the paradise of Dilmun (cf. Eve eating the forbidden fruit), which the goddess Ninhursag considers a mortal sin, so she causes 8 of Enki's body parts (including his rib) to suffer, and he is on the brink of death. Enlil takes up Enki's cause and persuades Ninhursag to relent, and so various deities then come to heal each of Enki's body parts. The one who heals his rib is the goddess Ninti, whose name means both &quot;lady of the rib,&quot; and &quot;lady who makes live,&quot; which serves as a pun. Thus is established a possible parallel between Ninti and Eve, who was created from Adam's rib (in Hebrew *tesla*) and whose name in Hebrew (*hawwa*) connotes life (thus Eve was called &quot;the mother of all the living&quot; in Genesis 3:20). The pun doesn't work in Hebrew since the words for rib and life differ, but I'm not sure the biblical writer knew about it or, if he did, cared. (Having said that, it looks like the biblical writer made his own pun, because the Hebrew word for rib, *tsela,* can also connote &quot;stumbling,&quot; so although Eve was ostensibly created to be Adam's helper (Gen. 2:18), she proved to be his stumbling block.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are obvious parallels here, which have gotten many people excited, but proving a direct influence has proved elusive, and I know of no biblical scholars (whether faith-based or secular) who maintain that there is any such direct influence, because the usual scholarly criteria for proving intertextual influence are not strongly met here; but this remains a reasonable possibility. More generally, many prevalent ancient Near Eastern mythological motifs do show up in the Hebrew Bible, so it is clear to me that biblical Palestine shared a common cultural (including mythological) context with the broader ancient Near East." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6111" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="739" RevisionGUID="53d1ea96-e927-47b0-9fee-7574f741acf8" CreationDate="2016-02-01T23:20:40.633" UserId="292" Comment="Added source for Cimmeriian comment, since that was part of the question." Text="I can't speak for the Cimmerians (possibly from [Anatolia][1], out of Russia) but the Hyperboreans were legendary. They lived &quot;beyond the north wind&quot; in a [land in the extreme far north][2], with huge mountains in the frigid land to their south. They supposedly built the [second temple][3] at Delphi, from feathers and beeswax, and sent tribute to Apollo's temple at Delos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There has been much speculation that the Hyperboreans were the Norse or [British][4] people, and [this paper][5] also mentions the Balkans, because of the mountains. As a side note, however, there is a similar story in Norse myth about a place called Glaesisvellir at the very end of Jotunheim, the remote, barren land of the giants (jotuns), which appears in several sagas and the [History of the Danes][6]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.britannica.com/topic/Cimmerian&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Phylos/Hyperborea.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/Pausanias10A.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://historyplanet.wordpress.com/2010/08/24/hyperboria/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.escholar.manchester.ac.uk/api/datastream?publicationPid=uk-ac-man-scw:1m1174&amp;datastreamId=POST-PEER-REVIEW-PUBLISHERS-DOCUMENT.PDF&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&amp;rct=j&amp;q=&amp;esrc=s&amp;source=web&amp;cd=3&amp;ved=0CCMQFjAC&amp;url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F620633%2Fvpp_ec_%25C3%25BE%25C3%25A9r_verp_oc_%25C3%25A1_avstr_vega_throwing_up_in_%25C3%2586gir_s_hall&amp;ei=YkhaVcHFIuaHsQStoYHACA&amp;usg=AFQjCNENnl00LKRjMdmQVli5ZyEnSPpMfw&amp;sig2=LbJiTovTChZ63ZdX3hKF3Q&amp;bvm=bv.93564037,d.ZGU" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6113" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1410" RevisionGUID="f082802b-cb9e-4c0a-b303-f73d0beae236" CreationDate="2016-02-02T00:51:47.897" UserId="967" Text="How did angels come to get halos? I don't think the Bible, Qu'ran, or Torah says anything about them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But now, when we say &quot;angels,&quot; we think of winged humans with halos on top of them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So where did they come from?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6114" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1410" RevisionGUID="f082802b-cb9e-4c0a-b303-f73d0beae236" CreationDate="2016-02-02T00:51:47.897" UserId="967" Text="How did angels get their halos?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6115" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1410" RevisionGUID="f082802b-cb9e-4c0a-b303-f73d0beae236" CreationDate="2016-02-02T00:51:47.897" UserId="967" Text="|origins|angels|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6116" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="861" RevisionGUID="359714ed-3b6b-46fb-a2b8-224c66ca8550" CreationDate="2016-02-02T03:18:34.060" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|aztec|mesoamerica|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6117" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="355" RevisionGUID="6a13f276-ae30-4d7e-8001-fb1b22f3ff47" CreationDate="2016-02-02T03:18:54.363" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|maya|popol-vuh|mesoamerica|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6118" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="215" RevisionGUID="7890a656-0510-4b00-b410-31ea140d8248" CreationDate="2016-02-02T03:19:03.400" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|maya|popol-vuh|mesoamerica|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6119" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1410" RevisionGUID="bc4e6edd-762b-4a4e-afbf-94942c8012bf" CreationDate="2016-02-02T07:46:59.147" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|angels|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6120" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1411" RevisionGUID="0b07982e-9a36-4f1f-847a-4210c4a584d4" CreationDate="2016-02-02T11:16:56.300" UserId="201" Text="I seem to recall it's actually related to visual iconography, not anything from a text. Divine beings were said to have a glow around them showing their divinity, and people drawing or painting had various ways to represent that. [As painting styles changed][1], so did styles of the glow, eventually becoming first a disk behind the head and then the floating golden frisbee we currently see. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_%28religious_iconography%29#Decline_of_the_halo" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6121" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1412" RevisionGUID="df0fbeb5-7800-400e-91cc-26bf2328d636" CreationDate="2016-02-02T12:01:51.560" UserId="57" Text="In [their answer](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/1391/57) to my question about [Odin and Loki being blood brothers](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/1383/57), chaimedes quotes a footnote in Henry Adams Bellows translation of the Poetic Edda that claims Odin and Loki were &quot;often allied in enterprises&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  9\. There exists no account of any incident in which Othin and Loki thus swore blood-brotherhood, but they were so often allied in enterprises that the idea is wholly reasonable. The common process of &quot;mingling blood&quot; was carried out quite literally, and the promise of -which Loki speaks is characteristic of those which, in the sagas, often accompanied the ceremony; cf. Brot af Sigurtharkvithu, 18 and note.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Poetic Edda, by Henry Adams Bellows, p.156](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe10.htm#page_155)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I did find a mention to such an enterprise in the Lokasenna: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 50\. &quot;Though on rocks the gods bind me | with bowels torn  &#xD;&#xA;Forth from my frost-cold son,  &#xD;&#xA;I was first and last | at the deadly fight  &#xD;&#xA;There where Thjazi we caught.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Poetic Edda/Lokasenna](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda/Lokasenna), [Wikisource](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikisource)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More details on Thjazi's story can be found in the Skáldskaparmál, which starts with Odin, Loki and Hœnir setting on a journey together.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One adventure, however, is certainly not enough to support the claim the two gods were often allied. What other adventures did Odin and Loki share? How often were they allied in enterprises?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6122" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1412" RevisionGUID="df0fbeb5-7800-400e-91cc-26bf2328d636" CreationDate="2016-02-02T12:01:51.560" UserId="57" Text="How often were Odin and Loki allied in enterprises?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6123" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1412" RevisionGUID="df0fbeb5-7800-400e-91cc-26bf2328d636" CreationDate="2016-02-02T12:01:51.560" UserId="57" Text="|norse|odin|loki|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6124" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1383" RevisionGUID="8c4642fd-d474-4a1b-9a7e-6d86f23b8195" CreationDate="2016-02-02T12:05:08.157" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|odin|lokasenna|loki|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6125" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1412" RevisionGUID="fb5682c1-6048-44f3-91cd-4bdd189c6c53" CreationDate="2016-02-02T12:11:36.677" UserId="57" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="In [their answer](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/1391/57) to my question about [Odin and Loki being blood brothers](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/1383/57), chaimedes quotes a footnote in Henry Adams Bellows translation' of the Poetic Edda that claims Odin and Loki were &quot;often allied in enterprises&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  9\. There exists no account of any incident in which Othin and Loki thus swore blood-brotherhood, but they were so often allied in enterprises that the idea is wholly reasonable. The common process of &quot;mingling blood&quot; was carried out quite literally, and the promise of -which Loki speaks is characteristic of those which, in the sagas, often accompanied the ceremony; cf. Brot af Sigurtharkvithu, 18 and note.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Poetic Edda, by Henry Adams Bellows, p.156](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe10.htm#page_155)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I did find a mention to such an enterprise in the Lokasenna: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 50\. &quot;Though on rocks the gods bind me | with bowels torn  &#xD;&#xA;Forth from my frost-cold son,  &#xD;&#xA;I was first and last | at the deadly fight  &#xD;&#xA;There where Thjazi we caught.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Poetic Edda/Lokasenna](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda/Lokasenna), [Wikisource](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikisource)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More details on Thjazi's story can be found in the Skáldskaparmál, which starts with Odin, Loki and Hœnir setting on a journey together.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One adventure, however, is certainly not enough to support the claim the two gods were often allied. What other adventures did Odin and Loki share? How often were they allied in enterprises?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6126" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1412" RevisionGUID="0df50a82-a031-4056-a159-a2f8e829b572" CreationDate="2016-02-02T12:28:50.307" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|odin|lokasenna|loki|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6127" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1412" RevisionGUID="8ffd8880-0bc1-4a7b-a6b5-1891a870b694" CreationDate="2016-02-02T12:36:12.790" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 58 characters in body" Text="In [their answer](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/1391/57) to my question about [Odin and Loki being blood brothers](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/1383/57), chaimedes quotes a footnote in Henry Adams Bellows' translation of the Poetic Edda that claims Odin and Loki were &quot;often allied in enterprises&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  9\. There exists no account of any incident in which Othin and Loki thus swore blood-brotherhood, but they were so often allied in enterprises that the idea is wholly reasonable. The common process of &quot;mingling blood&quot; was carried out quite literally, and the promise of -which Loki speaks is characteristic of those which, in the sagas, often accompanied the ceremony; cf. Brot af Sigurtharkvithu, 18 and note.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Poetic Edda, by Henry Adams Bellows, p.156](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe10.htm#page_155)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I did find a mention to such an enterprise in the Lokasenna: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 50\. &quot;Though on rocks the gods bind me | with bowels torn  &#xD;&#xA;Forth from my frost-cold son,  &#xD;&#xA;I was first and last | at the deadly fight  &#xD;&#xA;There where Thjazi we caught.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Poetic Edda/Lokasenna](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda/Lokasenna), [Wikisource](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikisource)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More details on Thjazi's story can be found in the Skáldskaparmál, which starts with Odin, Loki and Hœnir setting on a journey together.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One adventure, however, is certainly not enough to support Bellows' claim. What other adventures did Odin and Loki share, as allies?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6130" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1412" RevisionGUID="dc249f45-da6e-41f3-a469-9a708777bb07" CreationDate="2016-02-02T18:36:08.090" UserId="57" Comment="edited title" Text="How often were Odin and Loki allied?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6131" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1413" RevisionGUID="66637ff0-62a2-4020-a1be-be23dcc33185" CreationDate="2016-02-03T12:59:11.520" UserId="1103" Text="I'd like to understand the astrological sign Capricorn more fully. &#xA;Are there any myths related to this sign? I am interested in both stories about Capricorn, or stories that reveal the goals of someone who is Capricorn. Even if there are myths regarding symbols that relate to Capricorn. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6132" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1413" RevisionGUID="66637ff0-62a2-4020-a1be-be23dcc33185" CreationDate="2016-02-03T12:59:11.520" UserId="1103" Text="Myths involving Capricorn" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6133" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1413" RevisionGUID="66637ff0-62a2-4020-a1be-be23dcc33185" CreationDate="2016-02-03T12:59:11.520" UserId="1103" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|roman|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6134" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1413" RevisionGUID="f49b7477-eb61-4ca2-9c48-05906beade61" CreationDate="2016-02-03T15:39:01.827" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|astrology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6135" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1414" RevisionGUID="04695b2a-24ef-49ca-941a-9a10b23aae3c" CreationDate="2016-02-03T23:56:03.377" UserId="42" Text="The constellation Capricorn depicts [Aegipan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegipan), who may or may not be the same being as Pan depending on which account you go by.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story differs significantly in different sources, but generally say that Aegipan was rewarded by Zeus for his actions in the fight against the monster, Typhon.  What, exactly, those actions were seems to vary wildly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  When the god in Egypt feared the monster Typhon, Pan bade them transform themselves into wild beasts the more easily to deceive him. Jove later killed him with a thunderbolt. By the will of the gods, since by his warning they had avoided Typhon’s violence, Pan was put among the number of the stars, Since at that time he had changed himself into a goat, he was called Aeocerus. We call him Capricorn.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Pseudo-Hyginus, Fabulae, 196](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusFabulae4.html#196)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The account from Hyginus's Astronomica, the details are different, but still involves the same players (Aegipan/Pan, Zeus and Typhon):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At this same time, they say, Pan cast himself into the river, making the lower part of his body a fish, and the rest a goat, and thus escaped from Typhon. Jove, admiring his shrewdness, put his likeness among the constellations.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Pseudo-Hyginus, Astronomica, 2.28](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusAstronomica2.html#28)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And from Apollodorus, again details are somewhat different from the other two:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  But Typhon twined about him [Zeus] and gripped him in his coils, and wresting the sickle from him severed the sinews of his hands and feet, and lifting him on his shoulders carried him through the sea to Cilicia and deposited him on arrival in the Corycian cave. Likewise he put away the sinews there also, hidden in a bearskin, and he set to guard them the she-dragon Delphyne, who was a half-bestial maiden. But Hermes and Aegipan stole the sinews and fitted them unobserved to Zeus.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca, 1.6.3](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus1.html#6)&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6136" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1414" RevisionGUID="dd335cec-98ff-4af0-8221-2f2f2b2a1460" CreationDate="2016-02-04T19:10:16.910" UserId="42" Comment="added 964 characters in body" Text="Capricornus, as a constellation, is seen in the Babylonian MUL.APIN tablets, believed to be compiled around 1000 BC, named SUḪUR.MÁŠ.  The goat-fish chimera's first depiction is earlier, on a ([Origins of the ancient Constellations](http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?1998JBAA..108....9R&amp;amp;data_type=PDF_HIGH&amp;amp;whole_paper=YES&amp;amp;type=PRINTER&amp;amp;filetype=.pdf), John H Rogers).  It is connected with the god Enki (Ea), who was connected to the goat and fish, combining his identity as a water deity and as a god of wisdom and magic (see: [&quot;The Primeval Zodiac:  Its Social, Religious, and Mythological Background&quot;](http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?bibcode=2009ASPC..409..151V), by Lorenzo Verderame).  The creature is seen in Mesopotamian art next to Enki:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Early depiction or Enki's goatfish][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the greeks and romans, the constellation Capricornus depicts [Aegipan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegipan), who may or may not be the same being as Pan depending on which account you go by.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story differs significantly in different sources, but generally say that Aegipan was rewarded by Zeus for his actions in the fight against the monster, Typhon.  What, exactly, those actions were seems to vary wildly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  When the god in Egypt feared the monster Typhon, Pan bade them transform themselves into wild beasts the more easily to deceive him. Jove later killed him with a thunderbolt. By the will of the gods, since by his warning they had avoided Typhon’s violence, Pan was put among the number of the stars, Since at that time he had changed himself into a goat, he was called Aeocerus. We call him Capricorn.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Pseudo-Hyginus, Fabulae, 196](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusFabulae4.html#196)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The account from Hyginus's Astronomica, the details are different, but still involves the same players (Aegipan/Pan, Zeus and Typhon):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At this same time, they say, Pan cast himself into the river, making the lower part of his body a fish, and the rest a goat, and thus escaped from Typhon. Jove, admiring his shrewdness, put his likeness among the constellations.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Pseudo-Hyginus, Astronomica, 2.28](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusAstronomica2.html#28)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And from Apollodorus, again details are somewhat different from the other two:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  But Typhon twined about him [Zeus] and gripped him in his coils, and wresting the sickle from him severed the sinews of his hands and feet, and lifting him on his shoulders carried him through the sea to Cilicia and deposited him on arrival in the Corycian cave. Likewise he put away the sinews there also, hidden in a bearskin, and he set to guard them the she-dragon Delphyne, who was a half-bestial maiden. But Hermes and Aegipan stole the sinews and fitted them unobserved to Zeus.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca, 1.6.3](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus1.html#6)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/sJZmf.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6137" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1415" RevisionGUID="e8831a09-b8be-42cd-8c4f-2e729782fdfb" CreationDate="2016-02-05T00:22:14.333" UserId="810" Text="Though I'm not making a citation to literature or art, I think that there is a historical prevalence to calling these kind of 'heavenly' phenomena as &quot;halos&quot; — which should reinforce their conceptual relationship with the light auras of divinely-related beings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/vTkZb.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6140" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="1055" RevisionGUID="76b7c5c9-5f6d-4259-8a2b-db979527eb3d" CreationDate="2016-02-05T10:49:58.123" UserId="-1" Comment="21" />
  <row Id="6141" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1414" RevisionGUID="878679ee-c5ec-42cd-83ad-54ef9720c715" CreationDate="2016-02-05T15:03:11.180" UserId="42" Comment="added 30 characters in body" Text="Capricornus, as a constellation, is seen in the Babylonian MUL.APIN tablets, believed to be compiled around 1000 BC, named SUḪUR.MÁŠ.  The goat-fish chimera's first depiction is earlier, on a seal dated sometime around 2000 BC ([Origins of the ancient Constellations](http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?1998JBAA..108....9R&amp;amp;data_type=PDF_HIGH&amp;amp;whole_paper=YES&amp;amp;type=PRINTER&amp;amp;filetype=.pdf), John H Rogers).  It is connected with the god Enki (Ea), who was connected to the goat and fish, combining his identity as a water deity and as a god of wisdom and magic ([&quot;The Primeval Zodiac:  Its Social, Religious, and Mythological Background&quot;](http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?bibcode=2009ASPC..409..151V), by Lorenzo Verderame).  The creature is seen in Mesopotamian art next to Enki:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Early depiction of Enki's goatfish][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the greeks and romans, the constellation Capricornus depicts [Aegipan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegipan), who may or may not be the same being as Pan depending on which account you go by.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story differs significantly in different sources, but generally say that Aegipan was rewarded by Zeus for his actions in the fight against the monster, Typhon.  What, exactly, those actions were seems to vary wildly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  When the god in Egypt feared the monster Typhon, Pan bade them transform themselves into wild beasts the more easily to deceive him. Jove later killed him with a thunderbolt. By the will of the gods, since by his warning they had avoided Typhon’s violence, Pan was put among the number of the stars, Since at that time he had changed himself into a goat, he was called Aeocerus. We call him Capricorn.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Pseudo-Hyginus, Fabulae, 196](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusFabulae4.html#196)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The account from Hyginus's Astronomica, the details are different, but still involves the same players (Aegipan/Pan, Zeus and Typhon):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At this same time, they say, Pan cast himself into the river, making the lower part of his body a fish, and the rest a goat, and thus escaped from Typhon. Jove, admiring his shrewdness, put his likeness among the constellations.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Pseudo-Hyginus, Astronomica, 2.28](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusAstronomica2.html#28)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And from Apollodorus, again details are somewhat different from the other two:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  But Typhon twined about him [Zeus] and gripped him in his coils, and wresting the sickle from him severed the sinews of his hands and feet, and lifting him on his shoulders carried him through the sea to Cilicia and deposited him on arrival in the Corycian cave. Likewise he put away the sinews there also, hidden in a bearskin, and he set to guard them the she-dragon Delphyne, who was a half-bestial maiden. But Hermes and Aegipan stole the sinews and fitted them unobserved to Zeus.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca, 1.6.3](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus1.html#6)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/sJZmf.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6142" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1414" RevisionGUID="2b308e7e-2816-4c42-aaf5-ff8f956fdb26" CreationDate="2016-02-05T15:14:35.443" UserId="42" Comment="added 30 characters in body" Text="Capricornus, as a constellation, is seen in the Babylonian MUL.APIN tablets, believed to be compiled around 1000 BC, named SUḪUR.MÁŠ (as can the rest of the modern zodiac, in one form or another).  The goat-fish chimera's first depiction is earlier, on a seal dated sometime around 2000 BC ([Origins of the ancient Constellations](http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?1998JBAA..108....9R&amp;amp;data_type=PDF_HIGH&amp;amp;whole_paper=YES&amp;amp;type=PRINTER&amp;amp;filetype=.pdf), John H Rogers).  It is connected with the god Enki (Ea), who was connected to the goat and fish, combining his identity as a water deity and as a god of wisdom and magic ([&quot;The Primeval Zodiac:  Its Social, Religious, and Mythological Background&quot;](http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?bibcode=2009ASPC..409..151V), by Lorenzo Verderame).  The creature is seen in Mesopotamian art next to Enki:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Early depiction of Enki's goatfish][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the greeks and romans, the constellation Capricornus depicts [Aegipan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegipan), who may or may not be the same being as Pan depending on which account you go by.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story differs significantly in different sources, but generally say that Aegipan was rewarded by Zeus for his actions in the fight against the monster, Typhon.  What, exactly, those actions were seems to vary wildly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  When the god in Egypt feared the monster Typhon, Pan bade them transform themselves into wild beasts the more easily to deceive him. Jove later killed him with a thunderbolt. By the will of the gods, since by his warning they had avoided Typhon’s violence, Pan was put among the number of the stars, Since at that time he had changed himself into a goat, he was called Aeocerus. We call him Capricorn.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Pseudo-Hyginus, Fabulae, 196](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusFabulae4.html#196)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The account from Hyginus's Astronomica, the details are different, but still involves the same players (Aegipan/Pan, Zeus and Typhon):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At this same time, they say, Pan cast himself into the river, making the lower part of his body a fish, and the rest a goat, and thus escaped from Typhon. Jove, admiring his shrewdness, put his likeness among the constellations.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Pseudo-Hyginus, Astronomica, 2.28](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusAstronomica2.html#28)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And from Apollodorus, again details are somewhat different from the other two:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  But Typhon twined about him [Zeus] and gripped him in his coils, and wresting the sickle from him severed the sinews of his hands and feet, and lifting him on his shoulders carried him through the sea to Cilicia and deposited him on arrival in the Corycian cave. Likewise he put away the sinews there also, hidden in a bearskin, and he set to guard them the she-dragon Delphyne, who was a half-bestial maiden. But Hermes and Aegipan stole the sinews and fitted them unobserved to Zeus.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca, 1.6.3](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus1.html#6)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/sJZmf.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6143" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="1135" RevisionGUID="8a744d9a-4345-471a-b5ec-2326ad7a8a8e" CreationDate="2016-02-05T18:39:31.967" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="22" />
  <row Id="6144" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1416" RevisionGUID="35cc26a6-1be4-416a-892d-b7cfae53c5a3" CreationDate="2016-02-05T22:49:24.343" UserId="967" Text="See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_numerals for reference;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the Greek Mythology played a part in almost everything, like&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The ocean (Oceanus)&#xD;&#xA;- Northern Europe (Europa)&#xD;&#xA;- And a whole bunch of stuff besides.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And I was looking at a random Wikipedia article about the Numeral Systems. Does any part of Greek mythology take a part in this?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6145" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1416" RevisionGUID="35cc26a6-1be4-416a-892d-b7cfae53c5a3" CreationDate="2016-02-05T22:49:24.343" UserId="967" Text="How does Greek Mythology play a part in numbers?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6146" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1416" RevisionGUID="35cc26a6-1be4-416a-892d-b7cfae53c5a3" CreationDate="2016-02-05T22:49:24.343" UserId="967" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6147" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1417" RevisionGUID="36d55dd3-041f-44dd-834e-0dffcd8af03d" CreationDate="2016-02-06T05:19:48.330" UserId="1193" Text="No matter the background/story/world vampires drink blood and sparkle, because this sort of diet is necessary for their existence (although in some versions they can suppress the hunger).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Werewolves are human (or human looking creatures) that can turn into wolf or half-wolf, half human hybrid and they have slight allergy towards silver. While they don't NEED to eat humans, they usually attack them in a bouts of rage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ghosts are dead people that came back because they have something to settle - be it malevolent haunting or protection of some place/person.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And then we have fairies - sidhe, elves (not the Tolkien type), fairy folk etc, who have bad habit of replacing human babies with their own for whatever reason, creating changelings (which is &quot;children that have been changed, replaced&quot;). Such changeling grows among humans and later discovers his true calling.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But what happens with the kidnapped human children? Is there some sort of consesus what actually fairies do with them? I'm assuming its nothing good, but besides brief note in the Wikipedia saying that &quot;In Scottish folklore, the children might be replacements for fairy children in the tithe to Hell&quot; there is very little information about possible fate of such kids." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6148" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1417" RevisionGUID="36d55dd3-041f-44dd-834e-0dffcd8af03d" CreationDate="2016-02-06T05:19:48.330" UserId="1193" Text="What faeries do with kidnapped human children?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6149" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1417" RevisionGUID="36d55dd3-041f-44dd-834e-0dffcd8af03d" CreationDate="2016-02-06T05:19:48.330" UserId="1193" Text="|fairies|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6150" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1416" RevisionGUID="e30c8c9a-c15e-42c9-9eaa-81214b22d4c6" CreationDate="2016-02-06T06:33:03.553" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags; edited title" Text="Are there any Greek myths related to the creation or use of numbers?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6151" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1416" RevisionGUID="e30c8c9a-c15e-42c9-9eaa-81214b22d4c6" CreationDate="2016-02-06T06:33:03.553" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags; edited title" Text="|greek|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6152" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1417" RevisionGUID="a34bf596-ac00-4d43-a1e2-11c166e02306" CreationDate="2016-02-06T11:04:04.510" UserId="1193" Comment="added 7 characters in body" Text="No matter the background/story/world vampires drink blood &lt;s&gt;and sparkle&lt;/s&gt;, because this sort of diet is necessary for their existence (although in some versions they can suppress the hunger).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Werewolves are human (or human looking creatures) that can turn into wolf or half-wolf, half human hybrid and they have slight allergy towards silver. While they don't NEED to eat humans, they usually attack them in a bouts of rage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ghosts are dead people that came back because they have something to settle - be it malevolent haunting or protection of some place/person.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And then we have fairies - sidhe, elves (not the Tolkien type), fairy folk etc, who have bad habit of replacing human babies with their own for whatever reason, creating changelings (which is &quot;children that have been changed, replaced&quot;). Such changeling grows among humans and later discovers his true calling.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But what happens with the kidnapped human children? Is there some sort of consesus what actually fairies do with them? I'm assuming its nothing good, but besides brief note in the Wikipedia saying that &quot;In Scottish folklore, the children might be replacements for fairy children in the tithe to Hell&quot; there is very little information about possible fate of such kids." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6153" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1418" RevisionGUID="eb559b77-381d-435c-be60-229b0c7944c6" CreationDate="2016-02-06T19:42:31.653" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6154" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1419" RevisionGUID="6d945857-e2b5-4ad5-b04d-d694ce4b815a" CreationDate="2016-02-06T19:42:31.653" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6156" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="709" RevisionGUID="a61575af-af99-4e7a-812f-59e71f194bff" CreationDate="2016-02-07T21:43:00.457" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="24" />
  <row Id="6157" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1420" RevisionGUID="ec7e369c-5e9e-4227-8dad-115804acacb2" CreationDate="2016-02-07T23:03:13.637" UserId="967" Text="Famous demi-gods were sometimes turned into gods. Namely:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Hercules&#xD;&#xA;- Dionysus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But were there any mortals that were turned into gods, or immortal?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6158" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1420" RevisionGUID="ec7e369c-5e9e-4227-8dad-115804acacb2" CreationDate="2016-02-07T23:03:13.637" UserId="967" Text="Were any mortals made into gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6159" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1420" RevisionGUID="ec7e369c-5e9e-4227-8dad-115804acacb2" CreationDate="2016-02-07T23:03:13.637" UserId="967" Text="|greek|immortality|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6160" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1421" RevisionGUID="60a8eb4c-066c-4f43-9d5c-3b19027fdb94" CreationDate="2016-02-08T00:24:39.090" UserId="183" Text="Some members of [this list](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Greek_mythological_figures#Deified_mortals) count as gods, although none are, to my knowledge, regarded as true Olympians. While all gained immortality, I'm only counting a select few as gods because they were either venerated by a large group of people or recognized by other immortals as gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some notables:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**[Glaucus](http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Glaukos.html):** Originally a fisherman, he ate a &quot;divine herb&quot; from Cronos and became immortal. He helped the Argonauts on their quest, and for this he was venerated by fisherman and sailors, and accepted by other marine deities as a god of the sea. Philostratus the Elder writes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The story is that he once dwelt in ancient Anthedon and that he ate a certain grass on the seashore, and that when a wave came upon him unawares he was borne away to the haunts of the fishes. Now he is probably uttering some great oracle, for he excels in this art.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**[Orithyia](http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheOreithyia1.html):** Originally a mortal, she was abducted and raped by the north wind, Boreas, who made her his wife. Two of their children, Calais and Zetes, sailed as Argonauts. Orithyia was venerated by the Athenians as a wind goddess." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6161" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1421" RevisionGUID="02304dce-0f9e-43ca-bbcd-681b60392c0e" CreationDate="2016-02-08T00:30:00.993" UserId="183" Comment="Added the example of Ino/Leucothea." Text="Some members of [this list](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Greek_mythological_figures#Deified_mortals) count as gods, although none are, to my knowledge, regarded as true Olympians. While all gained immortality, I'm only counting a select few as gods because they were either venerated by a large group of people or recognized by other immortals as gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some notables:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**[Glaucus](http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Glaukos.html):** Originally a fisherman, he ate a &quot;divine herb&quot; from Cronos and became immortal. He helped the Argonauts on their quest, and for this he was venerated by fisherman and sailors, and accepted by other marine deities as a god of the sea. Philostratus the Elder writes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The story is that he once dwelt in ancient Anthedon and that he ate a certain grass on the seashore, and that when a wave came upon him unawares he was borne away to the haunts of the fishes. Now he is probably uttering some great oracle, for he excels in this art.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**[Orithyia](http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheOreithyia1.html):** Originally a mortal, she was abducted and raped by the north wind, Boreas, who made her his wife. Two of their children, Calais and Zetes, sailed as Argonauts. Orithyia was venerated by the Athenians as a wind goddess.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**[Ino (known as the goddess Leucothea)](http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Leukothea.html):** Ino was, like Orithyia, once a mortal princess. She married Athamos (also mortal). Different versions of her life and death exist, but many end with her throwing herself and one of her children into the sea, possibly to escape the rage of Hera, because Ino had raised Dionysus as a boy. The sea deities (sometimes including Poseidon) then accepted her, like Glaucus, as a god, and she received the name of Leucothea." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6162" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1421" RevisionGUID="3698be85-f177-4b2d-810b-9647ffb3a273" CreationDate="2016-02-08T00:36:55.377" UserId="183" Comment="Added the example of Bolina, a footnote about Palaemon, and a postscript for Glaucus." Text="Some members of [this list](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Greek_mythological_figures#Deified_mortals) count as gods, although none are, to my knowledge, regarded as true Olympians. While all gained immortality, I'm only counting a select few as gods because they were either venerated by a large group of people or recognized by other immortals as gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some notables:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**[Glaucus](http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Glaukos.html):** Originally a fisherman, he ate a &quot;divine herb&quot; from Cronos and became immortal. He helped the Argonauts on their quest, and for this he was venerated by fisherman and sailors, and accepted by other marine deities as a god of the sea. Philostratus the Elder writes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The story is that he once dwelt in ancient Anthedon and that he ate a certain grass on the seashore, and that when a wave came upon him unawares he was borne away to the haunts of the fishes. Now he is probably uttering some great oracle, for he excels in this art.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Glaucus is somewhat unusual (as the other examples will show) in that he became immortal purely by his own doing. Other figures gained immortality thanks to the favor of a god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**[Orithyia](http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheOreithyia1.html):** Originally a mortal, she was abducted and raped by the north wind, Boreas, who made her his wife. Two of their children, Calais and Zetes, sailed as Argonauts. Orithyia was venerated by the Athenians as a wind goddess.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**[Ino (known as the goddess Leucothea)](http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Leukothea.html):** Ino was, like Orithyia, once a mortal princess. She married Athamos (also mortal). Different versions of her life and death exist, but many end with her throwing herself and one of her children into the sea, possibly to escape the rage of Hera, because Ino had raised Dionysus as a boy. The sea deities (sometimes including Poseidon) then accepted her, like Glaucus, as a god, and she received the name of Leucothea. Her son, Melicertes, also became immortal, known as **[Palaemon](http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Palaimon.html)**, another god of the sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**[Bolina](http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheBolina.html):** A slightly more mundane example, Bolina was loved by Apollon. Fleeing him, she, like Ino, dove into the sea, and was given immortality, as a nymph (which for our purposes may count as a deity, although I don't believe she was venerated)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6163" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1422" RevisionGUID="cb73978e-97aa-4457-a3e2-913f63b6512b" CreationDate="2016-02-08T18:13:55.073" UserId="957" Text="Do the leaves of the World Tree (Yggdrasil) have any special properties in Norse Mythology?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6164" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1422" RevisionGUID="cb73978e-97aa-4457-a3e2-913f63b6512b" CreationDate="2016-02-08T18:13:55.073" UserId="957" Text="Do the leaves of Yggdrasil (the World Tree) have any special properties?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6165" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1422" RevisionGUID="cb73978e-97aa-4457-a3e2-913f63b6512b" CreationDate="2016-02-08T18:13:55.073" UserId="957" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6166" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1423" RevisionGUID="c1473a72-0078-4419-b090-1def7bb348fa" CreationDate="2016-02-08T19:43:46.147" UserId="201" Text="On the FOX show *Sleepy Hollow,* the Big Bad this season calls herself Pandora, and she has a box from which supernatural evil things come, but one of the protagonists says she's from Sumeria. The character herself talks about how her father sold her into slavery, which is not part of the Greek story. Also, in the Greek story, Pandora is clearly an innocent pawn, not an evildoer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've tried to research this, but I can't find any equivalents to the Greek Pandora myth (woman is created with many gifts from many gods, including intense curiosity; she is given as a wife to punish someone; she's given a jar/box/container and told &quot;don't open it&quot; but she does, and all manner of evils fly out to plague humanity; hope remains) in Sumerian mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is this just artistic license, or was there a similar figure or story in the Sumerian mythos?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6167" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1423" RevisionGUID="c1473a72-0078-4419-b090-1def7bb348fa" CreationDate="2016-02-08T19:43:46.147" UserId="201" Text="Is there a Sumerian Pandora myth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6168" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1423" RevisionGUID="c1473a72-0078-4419-b090-1def7bb348fa" CreationDate="2016-02-08T19:43:46.147" UserId="201" Text="|greek|sumerian|pandora|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6169" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1424" RevisionGUID="f59b6d2f-c0b2-4cb2-aad9-581f2a842ac1" CreationDate="2016-02-08T21:44:37.850" UserId="398" Text="The Pandora story you cite is 100% Greek. There's probably a pre-Hesiodic tradition surrounding it, but as it stands, it's not Mesopotamian.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there are parallels with Eve from Hebrew mythology. Both ruin a utopian world through their curiosity, causing misery and strife for humans thereafter. However, both endeavor to explain why the world is toilsome, and since the world is toilsome and women were easy targets for blame (especially in a male-dominated society), it's not impossible these are entirely independent of each other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And even if there is some relationship between the two, the way the Greek story is told is without parallel." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6170" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1425" RevisionGUID="a3318699-939f-42d4-890c-0d15b4ce034e" CreationDate="2016-02-08T21:58:32.023" UserId="398" Text="Egyptian Hermes (i.e. Thoth) is the creator of literacy and therefore numeracy (Diodorus 1.16).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It was by Hermes, for instance, according to them, that the common language of mankind was first further articulated, and that many objects which were still nameless received an appellation, that the alphabet was invented, and that ordinances regarding the honours and offerings due to the gods were duly established; he was the first also to observe the orderly arrangement of the stars and the harmony of the musical sounds and their nature, to establish a wrestling school, and to give thought to the rhythmical movement of the human body and its proper development. He also made a lyre and gave it three strings, imitating the seasons of the year; for he adopted three tones, a high, a low, and a medium; the high from the summer, the low from the winter, and the medium from the spring.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Diodorus via Lacus Curtius](http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Diodorus_Siculus/1A*.html)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We must remember that Greek numbers are merely letters (rarely otherwise) that correspond to a numerical value." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6175" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1427" RevisionGUID="d4d935da-a7ad-49b6-b5c6-dfe1529e80fa" CreationDate="2016-02-09T01:04:32.833" UserId="292" Text="I don't know if the leaves had any magical properties, but apparently it dripped honey:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know an ash-tree stands called Yggdrasill,  &#xD;&#xA;a high tree, soaked with shining loam;  &#xD;&#xA;from there come the dews which fall in the valley,  &#xD;&#xA;ever green, it stands over the well of fate. ([Vsp][1]. 19, Larrington)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The dew that falls from it on to the earth, this is what people call honeydew, and from this bees feed. (Snorri/Faulkes, [Gylf][2] 17)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(The translations are by Carolyne Larrington and Anthony Faulkes.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ash trees exude a sticky sap called manna or honeydew, which runs from the [branches and leaves][3]. Apart from bees, the [goat Heidrun][4] ate this honey, which probably was transformed into the mead that ran from her udders.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe03.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre04.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://earthandstarryheaven.com/2015/04/07/honey-ash/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/norse-mythology.php?deity=HEIDRUN" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6176" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="1328" RevisionGUID="b1be6066-4d3e-4ac4-901d-71fe10276c89" CreationDate="2016-02-09T06:59:54.640" UserId="-1" Comment="23" />
  <row Id="6178" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1428" RevisionGUID="6c8c49be-ce3e-4257-a1ab-daccd4fc07c5" CreationDate="2016-02-09T23:58:09.143" UserId="967" Text="In Harry Potter, there are magical creatures [thestrals][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A Thestral is a breed of winged horses with a skeletal body, face with reptilian features, and wide, leathery wings that resemble a bat's. . . . they are visible only to those who have witnessed death at least once (and fully accepted the concept) or due to their somewhat grim, gaunt and ghostly appearance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a myth that explains the origins of these creatures? Which myth system would they come from?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Thestral" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6179" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1428" RevisionGUID="6c8c49be-ce3e-4257-a1ab-daccd4fc07c5" CreationDate="2016-02-09T23:58:09.143" UserId="967" Text="What are the origins of thestrals?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6180" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1428" RevisionGUID="6c8c49be-ce3e-4257-a1ab-daccd4fc07c5" CreationDate="2016-02-09T23:58:09.143" UserId="967" Text="|mythical-creatures|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6181" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1220" RevisionGUID="d8b10220-ff4c-436c-bc9b-ba26869c685b" CreationDate="2016-02-10T02:21:56.360" UserId="967" Comment="completely changed it" Text="No sources really say anything about this. Very well. From pure logic, I will create three theories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A quote that carries some base information.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;So Jupiter [Zeus] spoke, and then by [Styx] the stream of his Stygian brother, the banks where boiling pitch flows in black maelstrom, he nodded, confirming his promise: the nod caused all Olympus to tremble.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##Death or Insanity##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If both vows were placed, then each would nudge you to do whatever it said you to do. They would then get so strong, they would explode your mind. Or, if you fulfilled one of them, then you would go insane because you broke your Styx vow. Very unpleasant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#You can't/ Replacement#&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have a feeling that the Greeks saw through this, and did NOT want to make people's mind explode. So if you were to make two contradictory vows, then the second one was the only one you had to fulfill.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#Nothing#&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the quote, **Zeus** spoke. The River Styx could only make Olympus tremble if a god/ goddess did it. If you **are** a god/ goddess then resort to 1 or 2." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6182" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1429" RevisionGUID="7a597de2-7894-4e20-bc90-d49b0441e7f1" CreationDate="2016-02-10T11:00:17.940" UserId="57" Text="This interesting tidbit comes from the first chapter of Moncure Conway's “Demonology and Devil-lore”:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “These have been associated in rabbinical mythology with the angels Michael (genius of Water) and Gabriel (genius of Fire); but they refer both to the phenomenal glories and the purifying effects of the two elements as reverenced by the Africans in one direction and the Parsees in another.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How did the angels Michael and Gabriel came to be associated with water and fire respectively? Are other angels associated with elements?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6183" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1429" RevisionGUID="7a597de2-7894-4e20-bc90-d49b0441e7f1" CreationDate="2016-02-10T11:00:17.940" UserId="57" Text="How did the angels Michael and Gabriel came to be associated with water and fire?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6184" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1429" RevisionGUID="7a597de2-7894-4e20-bc90-d49b0441e7f1" CreationDate="2016-02-10T11:00:17.940" UserId="57" Text="|angels|judaism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6188" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1428" RevisionGUID="04cc3fa8-21af-4662-8530-6f4016c2eaf5" CreationDate="2016-02-10T16:38:02.173" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 193 characters in body" Text="In Harry Potter, there are magical creatures [thestrals][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A Thestral is a breed of winged horses with a skeletal body, face with reptilian features, and wide, leathery wings that resemble a bat's. . . . they are visible only to those who have witnessed death at least once (and fully accepted the concept) or due to their somewhat grim, gaunt and ghostly appearance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;J. K. Rowling has been known to reference Greek mythology in her work. For example, one of her characters is named Minerva, and her writing features mythological creatures such as a sphinx.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a myth that explains the origins of these creatures? Which myth system would they come from?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Thestral" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6192" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1161" RevisionGUID="93a0029e-bd28-470e-854f-3e09566d1ed1" CreationDate="2016-02-11T00:06:11.693" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited body" Text="Tolkien apparently drew much of his inspiration for his elves from the Welsh supernatural owners of nature, the Tylwyth Teg: these are remarkable for the degree that the Welsh assigned their brand of elves a royal attribute. And this apparently suited Tolkien.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a remarkable, broad swath of shared belief systems in Northern Europe that extends from Ireland, Brittany, and Iceland to Sweden that features supernatural beings that live in communities in social groups reminiscent of those of people. The following is an excerpt from my Introduction to Folklore (2014):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Supernatural beings living in human-like communities are relatively rare. They occur in the traditions of Polynesia, Britain and Ireland, Scandinavia, Iceland and the North Sea islands, and to a certain extent the Russia. The Celts may have influenced Scandinavian traditions since the two groups had millennia-old contact. In English, the supernatural beings were traditionally called “elves,” but in the Celtic areas they are more typically referred to as “fairies.” In Gaelic, they are the sidhe (pronounced “shee”). The Norwegians call them huldre meaning hidden. In Sweden they are the trolls, but the country is enormous and various locations used different terms. The geographic distribution and history of the word “troll” is extremely complex since it can refer to a wide variety of supernatural beings, depending on the location, and it is sometimes used generically for many types of supernatural beings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you have further questions, feel free to ask." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6193" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1429" RevisionGUID="150f8872-ae30-4735-b9a4-60c8dd281e6a" CreationDate="2016-02-11T03:15:10.613" UserId="967" Comment="Added book, Someone pls make it so it is wired to the correct page." Text="This interesting tidbit comes from the first chapter of Moncure Conway's “Demonology and Devil-lore”:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “These have been associated in rabbinical mythology with the angels Michael (genius of Water) and Gabriel (genius of Fire); but they refer both to the phenomenal glories and the purifying effects of the two elements as reverenced by the Africans in one direction and the Parsees in another.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How did the angels Michael and Gabriel came to be associated with water and fire respectively? Are other angels associated with elements?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Book][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Chapter 1, 3rd page.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books/about/Demonology_and_Devil_lore.html?id=be4EM4UVaQMC&amp;source=kp_read&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;source=kp_read_button#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6194" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1429" RevisionGUID="150f8872-ae30-4735-b9a4-60c8dd281e6a" CreationDate="2016-02-11T03:15:10.613" Comment="Proposed by 967 approved by -1 edit id of 298" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6195" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1429" RevisionGUID="d20589fb-9bb7-46df-ac6b-5d715ca6ee1e" CreationDate="2016-02-11T03:15:10.613" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="bleh -- I wasn't able to link it to the specific page, maybe someone else will have better luck." Text="This interesting tidbit comes from the [first chapter of Moncure Conway's *Demonology and Devil-lore*][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “These have been associated in rabbinical mythology with the angels Michael (genius of Water) and Gabriel (genius of Fire); but they refer both to the phenomenal glories and the purifying effects of the two elements as reverenced by the Africans in one direction and the Parsees in another.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How did the angels Michael and Gabriel came to be associated with water and fire respectively? Are other angels associated with elements?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books/about/Demonology_and_Devil_lore.html?id=be4EM4UVaQMC&amp;source=kp_read&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;source=kp_read_button#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6196" PostHistoryTypeId="8" PostId="1429" RevisionGUID="4bd8d721-2a62-4ba1-bf7a-7c607a9c653a" CreationDate="2016-02-11T07:37:02.877" UserId="57" Comment="Rollback to [7a597de2-7894-4e20-bc90-d49b0441e7f1]" Text="This interesting tidbit comes from the first chapter of Moncure Conway's “Demonology and Devil-lore”:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “These have been associated in rabbinical mythology with the angels Michael (genius of Water) and Gabriel (genius of Fire); but they refer both to the phenomenal glories and the purifying effects of the two elements as reverenced by the Africans in one direction and the Parsees in another.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How did the angels Michael and Gabriel came to be associated with water and fire respectively? Are other angels associated with elements?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6197" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1422" RevisionGUID="177e4fda-caa4-4374-9b65-e4c3e458ba35" CreationDate="2016-02-11T12:35:00.393" UserId="967" Comment="tags added" Text="|norse|yggdrasil|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6198" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1422" RevisionGUID="177e4fda-caa4-4374-9b65-e4c3e458ba35" CreationDate="2016-02-11T12:35:00.393" Comment="Proposed by 967 approved by 62, 57 edit id of 297" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6199" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1432" RevisionGUID="c01802da-205a-4114-8dda-49aa65369d5a" CreationDate="2016-02-11T21:02:30.590" UserId="466" Text="I wasn't able to find any specific quotes from JK addressing this, but I did come across a [post on MuggleNet][1] from a contributor named Leah which speculated regarding a Celtic legend she happened upon in a bookstore. She explains the story in length, but summarizes it in this way:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now, there are obvious similarities between [the main character's] mare and thestrals, such as their remarkable traveling abilities, their appearance, and their association with abstract things such as destiny, death, and magic. Rowling’s thestrals were carnivorous, which brings me back to the bird, kestrel. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kestrels are mentioned in *Quidditch Through the Ages* as the name of a team, denoting that Rowling is familiar with them. Kestrels are dark birds of prey, with white patches below their eyes. Perhaps Rowling combined these birds with the mare of doom? One thing I also caught was N’oun Doare’s education by a Druid and his return at 17. Druids were ancient scholars and magicians who are believed to have practiced rituals in such places as Stonehenge. He reminds me very much of a certain young wizard…&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; I do not know if this is the story where J.K. Rowling discovered her intriguing creature, but one is allowed to speculate, no?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This seems a potential jumping off point for some further investigation, but of course not a solid answer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.mugglenet.com/2004/10/the-legend-behind-thestrals/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6200" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1133" RevisionGUID="656e5639-b947-45d5-92bf-d3f87438b556" CreationDate="2016-02-12T01:18:07.620" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="deleted 26 characters in body" Text="Welcome to the site, and welcome to the interesting world of mythology! Here are some resources for you to get started with.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By far the easiest way to learn more about mythology is to go to [your local library][1] and borrow one of their books about mythology. Don't worry about selecting the &quot;right&quot; source; just select a book that looks interesting to you. Remember, you are a beginner, therefore you don't know anything about mythology, and therefore *any* book will teach you something new.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, we recognize that not everyone can or would like to browse a library, and therefore have created a list of both online and offline resources. This list is by no means exhaustive: its purpose is merely to introduce the reader to a variety of sources about mythology. *Please do not be frightened by the amount of sources listed below: just choose a book or website that looks interesting and read it.* These books and websites are all interesting, so don't worry about choosing the &quot;wrong&quot; one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note to the reader: online sources have an *online* marker next to them. Offline sources link to the corresponding page on [worldcat.org][2], which will tell you whether the book is located in a library near you.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# General Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Collections of myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Creation Stories from around the World][3] -- *online* collection of creation myths from various cultures.&#xD;&#xA;2. [Sacred-Texts.com][4] -- an *online* database of translated myths and other sacred texts.&#xD;&#xA;3. [World Mythology][5]&#xD;&#xA;4. [Oxford Companion to World Mythology][6]&#xD;&#xA;5. [Handbook of World Mythology][7] &#xD;&#xA;6. [Gods, Heroes, and Monsters: A Sourcebook of Greek, Roman, and Near Eastern Myths in Translation][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Mythical Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Encyclopedia Mythica][9] -- an *online* encyclopedia about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Easier Texts&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For younger readers and those who’d like a more lively presentation before tackling the originals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [D’Aulaires’ Book of Greek Myths][10]: illustrated, readable, and blunt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. [D’Aulaires’ Book of Norse Myths][11]: illustrated, readable, and blunt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. [The Greek Gods][12], by Evslin, Evslin, and Hoopes. Not a long book but easy to read, and the one which got me hooked on mythology in elementary school.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. [The Adventures of Ulysses][13], Bernard Evslin: a highly readable and entertaining version of *The Odyssey.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Norse Myths][14], Kevin Crossley-Holland, a readable and clear collection of some of the more important Norse myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I recommend anything by the D’Aulaires and the Evslins in general.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Mesopotamian Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. An online translation of [The Epic of Gilgamesh][15]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Sumerian Mythology: A Study of Spiritual and Literary Achievement in the Third Millennium B.C.][16]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. [The Electronic Corpus of Sumerian Literature: Narrative Works][17]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Greek Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Homer's [Iliad](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Ilhome.htm) and [Odyssey](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Odhome.htm)&#xD;&#xA;2. Hesiod's [Theogony](http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm) -- an *online* translation of the Greek creation myth.&#xD;&#xA;3. [Homeric Hymns](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HomericHymns1.html)&#xD;&#xA;4. Pindar's [Victory Odes](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0162%3Abook%3DO)&#xD;&#xA;5. Apollonius of Rhodes' [Argonautica](http://www.theoi.com/Text/ApolloniusRhodius1.html)&#xD;&#xA;6. Pseudo-Apollodorus' [Bibliotecha](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus1.html)&#xD;&#xA;3. Ovid's &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.worldcat.org/title/metamorphoses-of-ovid/oclc/17197438&quot;&gt;Metamorphoses&lt;/a&gt;, plus a downloadable version &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.poetryintranslation.com/klineasovid.htm&quot;&gt;here.&lt;/a&gt; A loosely-structured &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphoses&quot;&gt;narrative poem&lt;/a&gt; covering many of the classic Greek myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias and Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Timothy Gantz, *Early Greek Myth*&#xD;&#xA;1. [Theoi][18] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Greek gods, creatures, and myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Celtic Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Four Branches of the Mabinogi][19]: an *online* translation of a classic collection of [tag:welsh] myths.&#xD;&#xA;2. [CELT][20]-- a fantastic *online* database of [tag:irish] literature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. [The Camelot Project][22] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Arthurian myth and legend.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Norse Mythology &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Norse Mythology for Smart People][23] -- an *online* encyclopedia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Mesoamerican / Central American&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Flayed God][24]&#xD;&#xA;2. The Popol Vuh: translations exist online: you can choose between a [literal translation][25] and a [less literal translation][26].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Mythological Theory (i.e. something other than Joseph Campbell)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Sacred narrative, readings in the theory of myth][27]&#xD;&#xA;2.  [Living Folklore, 2nd Edition: An Introduction to the Study of People and Their Traditions][28] -- an introduction to the academic discipline of folklore, available *online* from JSTOR, and offline as a book.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Miscellaneous Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Blogs about Mythology***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Mythology Matters][29] -- an *online* blog about mythology written by one of our own contributors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The New York Public Library's Recommended Mythology Links][30] -- an *online* collection of high-quality websites about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Interesting Articles***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The autobiography of John (William) Bierhorst][31] -- a short *online* autobiography of a man who translates native american myths for a living. It's a shortish and easy read.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.worldcat.org/libraries&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.worldcat.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/CS/CSIndex.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/world-mythology/oclc/27678612&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/oxford-companion-to-world-mythology/oclc/60492027&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/handbook-of-world-mythology/oclc/61151643&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/gods-heroes-and-monsters-a-sourcebook-of-greek-roman-and-near-eastern-myths-in-translation/oclc/842323102&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.pantheon.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/daulaires-book-of-greek-myths/oclc/779214769&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/daulaires-book-of-norse-myths/oclc/57311921&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/greek-gods/oclc/23595215&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/adventures-of-ulysses/oclc/22418476&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/norse-myths/oclc/6223744&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://web.archive.org/web/20150906105733/http://www.cidmod.org/sidurisadvice/Gilgamesh.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/sumerian-mythology-a-study-of-spiritual-and-literary-achievement-in-the-third-millennium-bc/oclc/322805&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=c.1*#&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: http://www.theoi.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: http://mabinogi.net/translations.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: http://www.ucc.ie/celt/&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/celtic-heritage-ancient-tradition-in-ireland-and-wales/oclc/53330832&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: http://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot-project&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: http://norse-mythology.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/flayed-god-the-mesoamerican-mythological-tradition-sacred-texts-and-images-from-pre-columbian-mexico-and-central-america/oclc/183418728?referer=di&amp;ht=edition&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: http://www.mesoweb.com/publications/Christenson/PV-Literal.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: http://www.mesoweb.com/publications/Christenson/PopolVuh.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [27]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/sacred-narrative-readings-in-the-theory-of-myth/oclc/9944508&#xD;&#xA;  [28]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt4cgrv6&#xD;&#xA;  [29]: https://mythologymatters.wordpress.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [30]: http://www.nypl.org/weblinks/1279&#xD;&#xA;  [31]: http://biography.jrank.org/pages/224/Bierhorst-John-William-1936.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6201" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1133" RevisionGUID="6eee0b40-a46b-40e0-90f0-a3d71dcb30e1" CreationDate="2016-02-12T02:32:16.203" UserId="398" Comment="added 247 characters in body" Text="Welcome to the site, and welcome to the interesting world of mythology! Here are some resources for you to get started with.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By far the easiest way to learn more about mythology is to go to [your local library][1] and borrow one of their books about mythology. Don't worry about selecting the &quot;right&quot; source; just select a book that looks interesting to you. Remember, you are a beginner, therefore you don't know anything about mythology, and therefore *any* book will teach you something new.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, we recognize that not everyone can or would like to browse a library, and therefore have created a list of both online and offline resources. This list is by no means exhaustive: its purpose is merely to introduce the reader to a variety of sources about mythology. *Please do not be frightened by the amount of sources listed below: just choose a book or website that looks interesting and read it.* These books and websites are all interesting, so don't worry about choosing the &quot;wrong&quot; one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note to the reader: online sources have an *online* marker next to them. Offline sources link to the corresponding page on [worldcat.org][2], which will tell you whether the book is located in a library near you.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# General Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Collections of myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Creation Stories from around the World][3] -- *online* collection of creation myths from various cultures.&#xD;&#xA;2. [Sacred-Texts.com][4] -- an *online* database of translated myths and other sacred texts.&#xD;&#xA;3. [World Mythology][5]&#xD;&#xA;4. [Oxford Companion to World Mythology][6]&#xD;&#xA;5. [Handbook of World Mythology][7] &#xD;&#xA;6. [Gods, Heroes, and Monsters: A Sourcebook of Greek, Roman, and Near Eastern Myths in Translation][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Mythical Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Encyclopedia Mythica][9] -- an *online* encyclopedia about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Easier Texts&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For younger readers and those who’d like a more lively presentation before tackling the originals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [D’Aulaires’ Book of Greek Myths][10]: illustrated, readable, and blunt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. [D’Aulaires’ Book of Norse Myths][11]: illustrated, readable, and blunt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. [The Greek Gods][12], by Evslin, Evslin, and Hoopes. Not a long book but easy to read, and the one which got me hooked on mythology in elementary school.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. [The Adventures of Ulysses][13], Bernard Evslin: a highly readable and entertaining version of *The Odyssey.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Norse Myths][14], Kevin Crossley-Holland, a readable and clear collection of some of the more important Norse myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I recommend anything by the D’Aulaires and the Evslins in general.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Mesopotamian Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. An online translation of [The Epic of Gilgamesh][15]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Sumerian Mythology: A Study of Spiritual and Literary Achievement in the Third Millennium B.C.][16]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. [The Electronic Corpus of Sumerian Literature: Narrative Works][17]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Greek Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Homer's [Iliad](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Ilhome.htm) and [Odyssey](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Odhome.htm)&#xD;&#xA;2. Hesiod's [Theogony](http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm) -- an *online* translation of the Greek creation myth.&#xD;&#xA;3. [Homeric Hymns](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HomericHymns1.html)&#xD;&#xA;4. Pindar's [Victory Odes](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0162%3Abook%3DO)&#xD;&#xA;5. Apollonius of Rhodes' [Argonautica](http://www.theoi.com/Text/ApolloniusRhodius1.html)&#xD;&#xA;6. Pseudo-Apollodorus' [Bibliotecha](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus1.html)&#xD;&#xA;3. Ovid's &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.worldcat.org/title/metamorphoses-of-ovid/oclc/17197438&quot;&gt;Metamorphoses&lt;/a&gt;, plus a downloadable version &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.poetryintranslation.com/klineasovid.htm&quot;&gt;here.&lt;/a&gt; A loosely-structured &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphoses&quot;&gt;narrative poem&lt;/a&gt; covering many of the classic Greek myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias and Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Timothy Gantz, *Early Greek Myth*&#xD;&#xA;1. [Theoi][18] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Greek gods, creatures, and myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Celtic Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Translations of Myths***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Four Branches of the Mabinogi][19]: an *online* translation of a classic collection of [tag:welsh] myths.&#xD;&#xA;2. [CELT][20]-- a fantastic *online* database of [tag:irish] literature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. [The Camelot Project][22] -- an *online* encyclopedia of Arthurian myth and legend.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Norse Mythology &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. *Norse Mythology: A Guide to Gods, Heroes, Rituals, and Beliefs* by John Lindow&#xD;&#xA;2. *Dictionary of Northern Mythology* by Rudolf Simek&#xD;&#xA;3. *Cassell's Dictionary of Norse Myth &amp; Legend* by Andy Orchard&#xD;&#xA;4. *Gods and Myths of Northern Europe* by &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Encyclopedias***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Norse Mythology for Smart People][23] -- an *online* encyclopedia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Mesoamerican / Central American&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The Flayed God][24]&#xD;&#xA;2. The Popol Vuh: translations exist online: you can choose between a [literal translation][25] and a [less literal translation][26].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Mythological Theory (i.e. something other than Joseph Campbell)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Sacred narrative, readings in the theory of myth][27]&#xD;&#xA;2.  [Living Folklore, 2nd Edition: An Introduction to the Study of People and Their Traditions][28] -- an introduction to the academic discipline of folklore, available *online* from JSTOR, and offline as a book.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Miscellaneous Sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Blogs about Mythology***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Mythology Matters][29] -- an *online* blog about mythology written by one of our own contributors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Other Resources***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The New York Public Library's Recommended Mythology Links][30] -- an *online* collection of high-quality websites about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Interesting Articles***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [The autobiography of John (William) Bierhorst][31] -- a short *online* autobiography of a man who translates native american myths for a living. It's a shortish and easy read.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.worldcat.org/libraries&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.worldcat.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/CS/CSIndex.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/world-mythology/oclc/27678612&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/oxford-companion-to-world-mythology/oclc/60492027&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/handbook-of-world-mythology/oclc/61151643&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/gods-heroes-and-monsters-a-sourcebook-of-greek-roman-and-near-eastern-myths-in-translation/oclc/842323102&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.pantheon.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/daulaires-book-of-greek-myths/oclc/779214769&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/daulaires-book-of-norse-myths/oclc/57311921&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/greek-gods/oclc/23595215&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/adventures-of-ulysses/oclc/22418476&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/norse-myths/oclc/6223744&amp;referer=brief_results&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://web.archive.org/web/20150906105733/http://www.cidmod.org/sidurisadvice/Gilgamesh.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/sumerian-mythology-a-study-of-spiritual-and-literary-achievement-in-the-third-millennium-bc/oclc/322805&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=c.1*#&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: http://www.theoi.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: http://mabinogi.net/translations.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: http://www.ucc.ie/celt/&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/celtic-heritage-ancient-tradition-in-ireland-and-wales/oclc/53330832&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: http://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot-project&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: http://norse-mythology.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/flayed-god-the-mesoamerican-mythological-tradition-sacred-texts-and-images-from-pre-columbian-mexico-and-central-america/oclc/183418728?referer=di&amp;ht=edition&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: http://www.mesoweb.com/publications/Christenson/PV-Literal.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: http://www.mesoweb.com/publications/Christenson/PopolVuh.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [27]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/sacred-narrative-readings-in-the-theory-of-myth/oclc/9944508&#xD;&#xA;  [28]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt4cgrv6&#xD;&#xA;  [29]: https://mythologymatters.wordpress.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [30]: http://www.nypl.org/weblinks/1279&#xD;&#xA;  [31]: http://biography.jrank.org/pages/224/Bierhorst-John-William-1936.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6202" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1433" RevisionGUID="afc4edf2-cf56-4314-9a3a-ea0592f8f9bd" CreationDate="2016-02-12T02:58:24.617" UserId="292" Text="After a brief search on Google, I found the following in the [Jewish Encyclopedia][1], which I quote:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Michael is snow, Gabriel is fire (Lüken, l.c. p. 55; comp. Yoma 21b, bottom). Nevertheless, it is the prince of fire and not the prince of ice that is commissioned to rescue Abraham as well as Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah from the fiery furnace (Pes. 118a; Ex. R. xviii. and parallel passage). In a single passage only (Targ. Job xxv. 2), Michael is called the prince of fire, and Gabriel the prince of water. As prince of fire Gabriel is also prince of the ripening of fruits (Sanh. 95b). As an angel representing an element of nature he is also connected with the metals: Gabriel is gold (the color of fire), Michael is silver (snow), Uriel is copper (Yalḳ., Ḥadash, s.v. &quot;Gabriel,&quot; No.75). Gabriel, girded like a metal-worker, shows Moses how to make the candlestick (Men. 29a). He has wings, like all the angels, but while Michael reaches the earth in one flight, Gabriel requires two (Ber. 4b, bottom).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I realize that this links Michael to snow, not water. The [Jewish Heritage Magazine][2] also echoes this idea, quoting Job 25:2 and Deut. Rabbah 5:12 in support. Still, snow is close to water, so that may be how Conway got the idea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6450-gabriel&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://jhom.com/topics/angels/talmud_fourangels.htm#9a" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6203" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1433" RevisionGUID="e22d8033-8de1-4f90-99d6-c104adb73c00" CreationDate="2016-02-12T08:00:35.840" UserId="57" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="After a brief search on Google, I found the following in the [Jewish Encyclopedia][1], which I quote:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Michael is snow, Gabriel is fire (Lüken, l.c. p. 55; comp. Yoma 21b, bottom). Nevertheless, it is the prince of fire and not the prince of ice that is commissioned to rescue Abraham as well as Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah from the fiery furnace (Pes. 118a; Ex. R. xviii. and parallel passage). In a single passage only (Targ. Job xxv. 2), Michael is called the prince of fire, and Gabriel the prince of water. As prince of fire Gabriel is also prince of the ripening of fruits (Sanh. 95b). As an angel representing an element of nature he is also connected with the metals: Gabriel is gold (the color of fire), Michael is silver (snow), Uriel is copper (Yalḳ., Ḥadash, s.v. &quot;Gabriel,&quot; No.75). Gabriel, girded like a metal-worker, shows Moses how to make the candlestick (Men. 29a). He has wings, like all the angels, but while Michael reaches the earth in one flight, Gabriel requires two (Ber. 4b, bottom).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I realize that this links Michael to snow, not water. The [Jewish Heritage Magazine][2] also echoes this idea, quoting Job 25:2 and Deut. Rabbah 5:12 in support. Still, snow is close to water, so that may be how Conway got the idea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6450-gabriel&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://jhom.com/topics/angels/talmud_fourangels.htm#9a" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6204" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1434" RevisionGUID="f7c96304-50bf-4775-893c-a630a530c893" CreationDate="2016-02-12T22:31:41.650" UserId="967" Text="Hades, the Underworld god, probably only knew about the Underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So why would he even know about Persephone, much less be attracted to her? If he did see above the ground, please tell me how he did it." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6205" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1434" RevisionGUID="f7c96304-50bf-4775-893c-a630a530c893" CreationDate="2016-02-12T22:31:41.650" UserId="967" Text="How did Hades get to know Persephone?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6206" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1434" RevisionGUID="f7c96304-50bf-4775-893c-a630a530c893" CreationDate="2016-02-12T22:31:41.650" UserId="967" Text="|greek|underworld|hades|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6207" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1435" RevisionGUID="0df21738-c349-43ca-84c4-dab857c73a05" CreationDate="2016-02-13T00:04:04.383" UserId="183" Text="Most Greek accounts - even the otherwise extraordinarily comprehensive mention in the [*Hymn to Demeter*](http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/demeter.htm) - don't mention the cause of Hades' infatuation with Persephone. I would tempted to snarkily write it off as another flight of fancy (albeit a high-profile one) by an Olympian, which happens quite often. But what's interesting is that at least on *Latin* - not Greek - account does mention motivation, specifically, that Erycina (Aphrodite) had Cupido (Eros) make Hades fall in love so they could &quot;conquer&quot; the underwold with love.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This account is by Ovid:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tyrannus [Haides] had left his dark domains to and fro, drawn in his chariot and sable steeds, inspected the foundations of the isle. His survey done, and no point found to fail, he put his fears aside; when, as he roamed, Erycina [Aphrodite], from her mountain throne, saw him and clasped her swift-winged son, and said : `Cupido [Eros], my child, my warrior, my power, take those sure shafts with which you conquer all, and shoot your speedy arrows to the heart of the great god to whom the last lot fell when the three realms were drawn. Your majesty subdues the gods of heaven [and sea] . . . Why should Tartara (Hell) lag behind? Why not there too extend your mother’s empire and your own? The third part of the world’s at stake, while we in heaven (so long-suffering!) are despised--my power grows less, and less the power of Amor [Eros]. Do you not see how Pallas [Athene] and Diana [Artemis], queen of the chase, have both deserted me? And Ceres’ daughter [Persephone], if we suffer it, will stay a virgin too--her hope’s the same. So for the sake of our joint sovereignty, if that can touch your pride, unite in love that goddess and her uncle [Haides].’&#xD;&#xA;So she spoke. Then Cupido, guided by his mother, opened his quiver and of all his thousand arrows selected one, the sharpest and the surest, the arrow most obedient to the bow, and bent the pliant horn against his knee and shot the barbed shaft deep in Dis’ [Haides’] heart.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Ovid, Metamorphoses 5. 462 ff (trans. Melville)](http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/HaidesPersephone2.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is an interesting twist, because it implies that Hades (referred to as &quot;Dis&quot;) was not at fault here. The personification of love in Greek and Roman mythology is complicated, and sometimes love occurs without divine intervention. This is implied to be the case in most Greek writings of the abduction of Persephone, and so details are not given. The account from Ovid's *Metamorphoses* is distinctly different.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In most other accounts, though, Greek and Roman? Hades/Dis happens to be out of the Underworld, sees her and falls in love on cue." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6208" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1436" RevisionGUID="cd21c9e5-a097-4199-8e00-50f6dd25d1f8" CreationDate="2016-02-13T02:32:26.917" UserId="1215" Text="Mary Renault proposes another option - that Ariadne took part in the chthonic goddess rites of naxos that still involved human sacrifice, and when theseus saw this he was repulsed and realized that she would be what medea was to his father aegeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;for reference check out The King Must Die and the Bull from the Sea" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6209" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="49" RevisionGUID="5009ba61-8df9-4df9-95b6-b1b6bc4b572e" CreationDate="2016-02-14T11:43:02.030" UserId="58" Comment="Strikethrough in response to comments." Text="Santa Claus is derived from the Dutch festival figure St Nicholas, or Sinterklaas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story is that St Nicholas is a Roman Catholic bishop who rides over the rooftop on a white horse at night, accompanied by his black manservant. While the children are asleep they bring presents, throwing them through the chimney, or the manservant climbing down the chimney to deliver the presents.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The characters have several influences, but the oldest version of St Nicholas seems to be Wodan. With the christianisation of Europe, festivals were changed to better fit the christian mythology. Witness how the midwinter festivals became Christmas and spring festivals became Easter &lt;del&gt;the latter name itself deriving from Ishtar&lt;/del&gt;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The manservant goes back to Wodans ravens, the white horse traces its origin to Sleipnir. There have been considerable influences over the ages, but this seems to be the oldest origin." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6210" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1437" RevisionGUID="ce3228cc-5371-4cc8-9ccc-bc85f22d42cb" CreationDate="2016-02-14T14:43:04.197" UserId="967" Text="So in mythology, *most* gods and goddesses are immortal. But you can't really live once you have your head cut off.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, specifically Greek mythology, what would happen if your head got cut off?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6211" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1437" RevisionGUID="ce3228cc-5371-4cc8-9ccc-bc85f22d42cb" CreationDate="2016-02-14T14:43:04.197" UserId="967" Text="What happened if a god or goddess had his head cut off?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6212" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1437" RevisionGUID="ce3228cc-5371-4cc8-9ccc-bc85f22d42cb" CreationDate="2016-02-14T14:43:04.197" UserId="967" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6213" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1438" RevisionGUID="321df5d1-1ccc-4aee-a8b7-6dfe3dfe5ba6" CreationDate="2016-02-15T13:25:31.330" UserId="967" Text="Hermes was a messenger god. And Iris, with her rainbows, was also a messenger goddess.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So why (and how) would the gods have two messenger gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6214" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1438" RevisionGUID="321df5d1-1ccc-4aee-a8b7-6dfe3dfe5ba6" CreationDate="2016-02-15T13:25:31.330" UserId="967" Text="Weren't Hermes and Iris both messenger gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6215" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1438" RevisionGUID="321df5d1-1ccc-4aee-a8b7-6dfe3dfe5ba6" CreationDate="2016-02-15T13:25:31.330" UserId="967" Text="|greek|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6216" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1439" RevisionGUID="93bd6d9a-6171-4421-b996-30c8cbc7a743" CreationDate="2016-02-15T15:10:17.693" UserId="1163" Text="The three hell's guardians, Radhamanthe Eaque and Minos are here to judge the lost souls to inflict them eternal torment. (Radhamante and Eaque decide of the judgement and if they don't agree, Minos close the debate and make a judgement that can not be contested).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But the nature of these three judges is still a mystery to me. Are they really impartial, or as they are hell creatures do they enjoy inflicting the souls an oversized torment ? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any informations about them is appreciated, especially if they come from Dante!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6217" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1439" RevisionGUID="93bd6d9a-6171-4421-b996-30c8cbc7a743" CreationDate="2016-02-15T15:10:17.693" UserId="1163" Text="Are the hell's judge really impartial?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6218" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1439" RevisionGUID="93bd6d9a-6171-4421-b996-30c8cbc7a743" CreationDate="2016-02-15T15:10:17.693" UserId="1163" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6219" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1439" RevisionGUID="730f63a7-10eb-455f-9cd8-b3f3cabbc34f" CreationDate="2016-02-15T15:23:47.953" UserId="57" Comment="added 6 characters in body" Text="The three hell's guardians, Rhadamanthus, Aeacus and Minos are here to judge the lost souls to inflict them eternal torment. (Rhadamanthus and  Aeacus decide of the judgement and if they don't agree, Minos close the debate and make a judgement that can not be contested).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But the nature of these three judges is still a mystery to me. Are they really impartial, or as they are hell creatures do they enjoy inflicting the souls an oversized torment? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any informations about them is appreciated, especially if they come from Dante!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6220" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1439" RevisionGUID="eaeee9db-23b9-4666-86f3-5c250cc55d16" CreationDate="2016-02-15T15:24:49.887" UserId="57" Comment="added 6 characters in body" Text="Are the hell's judges really impartial?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6221" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1440" RevisionGUID="68df4948-173d-4a0c-9512-6aa44f2dbf70" CreationDate="2016-02-15T18:11:01.150" UserId="398" Text="Yes, they really were, although that all three were judges of the dead is a later development.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First, in Homer's Odyssey only Minos is the judge of the dead:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;“There then I saw Minos, the glorious son of Zeus, golden sceptre in hand, giving judgment to the dead from his seat, while they sat and stood about the king through the wide-gated house of Hades, and asked of him judgment. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Od. 11.568-571, trans. Murray](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D11%3Acard%3D567)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you can see, Minos is concerned with judgment and justice, both important Greek concepts for the divine law of Zeus (the roots are themis and dikē respectively).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pindar, about ~200+ years later, knows of Rhadymanthus instead as the judge of the dead:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; those who have died on earth immediately pay the penalty—and for the crimes committed in this realm of Zeus there is a judge below the earth; with hateful compulsion he passes his sentence. But having the sun always in equal nights and equal days, the good receive a life free from toil, not scraping with the strength of their arms the earth, nor the water of the sea, for the sake of a poor sustenance. But in the presence of the honored gods, those who gladly kept their oaths enjoy a life without tears, while the others undergo a toil that is unbearable to look at. Those who have persevered three times, on either side, to keep their souls free from all wrongdoing, follow Zeus' road to the end, to the tower of Cronus, where ocean breezes blow around the island of the blessed, and flowers of gold are blazing, some from splendid trees on land, while water nurtures others. With these wreaths and garlands of flowers they entwine their hands according to the righteous counsels of Rhadamanthys, whom the great father, the husband of Rhea whose throne is above all others, keeps close beside him as his partner.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Pindar, Olympian Odes 2.58-77](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0162%3Abook%3DO.%3Apoem%3D2)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you can see, Rhadymanthus is responsible for separating the good from the bad. There's no sense at all that he's partial, but rather the opposite.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Plato seems to have developed, or at least is the first to mention all three brothers acting as judges. Here impartiality is strongest. Zeus, fed up with the rich yet wicked judged in their fancy clothing and sycophants fooling the judges into thinking they were actually just, appoints: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;sons of my own to be judges; two from Asia, Minos and Rhadamanthus, and one from Europe, Aiakos. These, when their life is ended, shall give judgement in the meadow at the dividing of the road, whence are the two ways leading, one to the Isles of the Blest (Nesoi Makaron), and the other to Tartaros. And those who come from Asia shall Rhadamanthys try, and those from Europe, Aiakos; and to Minos I will give the privilege of the final decision, if the other two be in any doubt; that the judgement upon this journey of mankind may be supremely just . . .&#xD;&#xA;When a man's soul is stripped bare of the body, all its natural gifts, and the experiences added to that soul as the result of his various pursuits, are manifest in it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Plato, Gorgias 523a and 524b ff (trans. Lamb)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So yes, from the earliest citation down through Plato's fuller account, the three judges are impartial judges who ensure the just are rewarded and the unjust are punished." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6222" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1441" RevisionGUID="f6d58b17-f5d0-4490-9212-b7b67d9d25a0" CreationDate="2016-02-15T18:31:39.957" UserId="398" Text="It's helpful to not consider Greek mythology as a unified, logically consistent whole. That they have two gods for one task is because humans are creating stories about the gods. Moreover, neither of the two are truly &quot;messenger gods&quot; per se, but rather they both manifest characteristics which allow storytellers to use them as messengers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For Iris, the rainbow which appears to go from heaven to the ground can be conceived of as some sort of pathway from the divine to the mortal spheres. This easily lends itself to the interpretation of rainbows as pathways for gods to communicate with mortals. The Iliad, the earliest Greek work we have, Iris is the messenger of the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For Hermes, since he's the &quot;patron&quot; (of sorts) of travelers, that function lends itself to his being cast as a messenger, as one who travels from the gods to mortals. He relays messages in the Odyssey, the second oldest Greek work we have, but not the Iliad.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since the two oldest works of Greek literature use either of these two gods for messages, they both became &quot;messenger&quot; gods. Note though that they have domains far beyond that, especially Hermes, who [protected flocks](http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/HermesGod.html#Herding), [looked after traders and merchants](http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/HermesGod.html#Trade), [guided souls of the dead to Hades](http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/HermesGod.html#GuideDead), and even [protected Horace in battle](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/HoraceOdesBkII.htm#anchor_Toc39742781)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6223" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1442" RevisionGUID="040a6f89-1fd6-49ec-9b6b-52f004e32e9d" CreationDate="2016-02-15T19:17:08.017" UserId="201" Text="Kronos was chopped into pieces and scattered across Tartarus, but it's specifically noted that said trip through the celestial Cuisinart did not kill him. (Some stories later have it that Kronos was released from Tartarus and set to rule over the Isle of the Blessed.) If being julienned isn't enough to kill an immortal, mere decapitation probably isn't either. Not to mention all the divine cannibalism that went on." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6224" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1443" RevisionGUID="bf274d10-df10-4b59-9cf9-12a87904ca4a" CreationDate="2016-02-15T20:09:21.657" UserId="1058" Text="**Hermes was a lot of things.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - &quot;Helper Hermes&quot; ([Iliad][1])&#xD;&#xA; - A companion to men ([Iliad][1])&#xD;&#xA; - &quot;pro-eminent in subtle thoughts&quot; ([Iliad][1])&#xD;&#xA; - &quot;keen-sighted&quot; ([Odyssey][2])&#xD;&#xA; - Deceitful ([Works and Days][3])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other sources mention further variances.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hermes is a clever thinker, an aid to the gods, and a guide for mankind. He plays many parts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Iris, on the other hand, though sometimes replacing Hermes' position (as in the Odyssey), is **more purely a messenger**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She is described in more single-minded terms, repeatedly so throughout the Iliad:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - &quot;wind-footed&quot; ([Iliad][1])&#xD;&#xA; - Bearing messages ([Iliad][1])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and very directly,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - a &quot;messenger&quot; ([Iliad][1])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other sources describing her, such as the Argonautica, were probably written later than the Iliad and the Odyssey, so their adherence to this structure can probably be largely disregarded.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *reasons* for the difference between Hermes and Iris, and the *need* for both of them, so to speak, could be debated; I'm not expert enough to offer any real opinion on the matter. Certainly Homer (if he was indeed the author we believe him to be) wrote wrote works containing both Hermes and Iris, so the real reason for the parts they play may be buried in author's intent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There may not really be much of a reason other than that. Deities tend to double up on duties and roles as they serve the needs of their authors. Especially for humanistic deities such as those in classic Greek mythology, it makes sense for writers like Homer and others to use and discard them as needed to make the plot and lessons flow. After all, it is more imperative for them to make a clear point than to uphold a certain standard for one individual deity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/3059/pg3059-images.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1727/1727-h/1727-h.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://omacl.org/Hesiod/works.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6225" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1437" RevisionGUID="92137edd-9595-441a-9fe7-621965541a43" CreationDate="2016-02-15T21:13:26.973" UserId="967" Comment="added 41 characters in body" Text="So in mythology, *most* gods and goddesses are immortal. But you can't really live once you have your head cut off.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, specifically Greek mythology, what would happen if your head got cut off, and you were an Olympian or lesser god??" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6228" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1439" RevisionGUID="f00057e0-39ab-4176-b056-81c3d11f224e" CreationDate="2016-02-16T01:01:50.660" UserId="398" Comment="deleted 4 characters in body" Text="Hell's three guardians, Rhadamanthus, Aeacus, and Minos are here to judge the lost souls to inflict them eternal torment. (Rhadamanthus and  Aeacus decide of the judgement and if they don't agree, Minos close the debate and make a judgement that can not be contested).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But the nature of these three judges is still a mystery to me. Are they really impartial, or as they are hell creatures do they enjoy inflicting the souls an oversized torment? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any information about them is appreciated, especially if they come from Dante!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6238" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1439" RevisionGUID="9a31b89d-76be-466c-848a-4e4e47861c45" CreationDate="2016-02-16T23:01:31.153" UserId="967" Comment="Get the name right" Text="Are the Underworld's judges really impartial?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6239" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1439" RevisionGUID="9a31b89d-76be-466c-848a-4e4e47861c45" CreationDate="2016-02-16T23:01:31.153" Comment="Proposed by 967 approved by 398, 42 edit id of 299" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6240" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1439" RevisionGUID="3f6bda22-61e7-4558-ad17-e4b4a97d09ca" CreationDate="2016-02-17T04:43:48.980" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="grammar" Text="The Greek Underworld's three judges, Rhadamanthus, Aeacus, and Minos judge the souls of the dead and decide whether to inflict eternal torment upon them. (Rhadamanthus and  Aeacus decide of the judgement and if they don't agree, Minos close the debate and make a judgement that can not be contested).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But the nature of these three judges is still a mystery to me. Are they really impartial, or are they sadistic hell creatures who enjoy tormenting the souls of the dead? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any information about this is appreciated, especially if it comes from Dante!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6241" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1447" RevisionGUID="01d77d06-e29a-41b7-a27d-ab5f540b6f9e" CreationDate="2016-02-17T05:24:54.467" UserId="871" Text="One must also remember that the Greeks, like the Romans after them, &quot;never met a god they didn't like.&quot; That's why the Greco-Roman religious Panthenon greatly resembled that of the Indian subcontinent, with so many gods one may often require a programme from which to select the more appropriate god to whom one should pray, for one's specific problem.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is difficult to prove at this remove in time, but it's very possible that, at an earlier point in Greek history, Iris and Hermes had been the messenger-gods of different independent Greek city-states. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Others have pointed out the approximate chronology---Iris being described as more of a &quot;dedicated messenger-god&quot; from the earliest literary references, while Hermes really seemed to have come by &quot;messenger-duty&quot; a bit later. The larger numbers of diverse and disparate &quot;duties&quot; assigned to Hermes suggests he had originally begun &quot;god-life&quot; as a sort of &quot;composite-god,&quot; who had united the functions of a number of earlier male deities who had been worshiped by the people of smaller Greek city-states, which had later been vanquished by or incorporated into later and more-powerful city-states.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the &quot;deceitful&quot; reference to Hermes' behaviour, it's evident one of those earlier &quot;incarnations&quot; had been a &quot;trickster-god;&quot; while the &quot;helper of men&quot; role may have come from an agrarian god whose original function had been to assist men with completion of hard tasks; and the chronology continues.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I believe, (though after 45 years and more I freely admit I may be mistaken) that it was Dr. T. C. Lethbridge who had explored at very great length the habit of Mankind to &quot;recycle&quot; the gods worshiped by earlier peoples (and, those who had later been &quot;assimilated peoples&quot;) of a particular area, into either later versions of gods. This also included merging traits of earlier gods into the &quot;aspects&quot; of later manifestations of gods belonging to later and more powerful regional peoples. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(One of his related, comprehensive, projects had been to demonstrate how the monuments and churches dedicated to more modern Christian Saints throughout Greater Britain had been &quot;recycled&quot; from pagan holy places that had originally been dedicated to gods of the so-called &quot;Old Religion.&quot;)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sorry for going on at such length, but I've always been fascinated by the European, Middle Eastern, and Oriental propensities for ***&quot;Bending Knee At The Drop Of A Hat,&quot;*** so to say! [As shown by the chronicle of &quot;Moses and the Wandering Hebrews,&quot; people would cast a &quot;golden calf&quot; to worship, rather than wait about a bit over a mere month, for &quot;something better.&quot;]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'd a &quot;tertiary Minor&quot; (covering *about* 270 hours) in &quot;comparative religions&quot; as a recreational venue at university: I'd found it supremely interesting and entertaining to examine how humankind had seemingly so missed childhood that they created gods to be &quot;surrogate parents&quot; during their adult lives! Not content merely to have &quot;matergod&quot; and &quot;patergod,&quot; however, they created extra &quot;parents&quot; (or perhaps &quot;elder-god-siblings&quot;) to assist them with virtually every civic, military, and domestic task imaginable. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This may seem laughable, and it's obviously easy to sneer at forebears who're 3,000 years and more removed, but please remember: The Romans, Greeks, and their far-eastern kinfolk, the Indians, had all been pleased to adopt the gods of both the older cultures from which they had come, and the newer cultures whom they had met in transit, behaving (on the whole) in very unselfish manners, rather than acting like spoiled and pouty little children. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's nothing more demeaning and depressing than observing two or more cultures gearing for battle, shouting at one another: ***&quot;My God Can Whup Yer God!&quot;*** like little boys brandishing **&quot;heavenly fathers&quot;** at one another. (The addle-pated ninny who'd invented the first &quot;jealous god&quot; should have been sent to bed without supper for the rest of his life!)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6243" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1448" RevisionGUID="ba89f86a-3a77-46e0-ae4a-7038bebd7e9f" CreationDate="2016-02-17T19:16:19.710" UserId="742" Text="Has there been any serious studies into the relationship between the Asherah tree and the Christmas trees, with the possibility of the former being the source of the latter?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6244" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1448" RevisionGUID="ba89f86a-3a77-46e0-ae4a-7038bebd7e9f" CreationDate="2016-02-17T19:16:19.710" UserId="742" Text="What is the connection between Asherah and the custom of Christmas Trees?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6245" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1448" RevisionGUID="ba89f86a-3a77-46e0-ae4a-7038bebd7e9f" CreationDate="2016-02-17T19:16:19.710" UserId="742" Text="|christianity|judeo-christian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6246" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1448" RevisionGUID="23c2b9e2-a970-4378-84d3-d6cef1085821" CreationDate="2016-02-17T19:42:20.497" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|comparative|christianity|judaism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6247" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1439" RevisionGUID="a8ccf3aa-4d13-453f-adca-26139860ca64" CreationDate="2016-02-18T02:07:03.207" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="deleted 12 characters in body" Text="The Greek Underworld's three judges, Rhadamanthus, Aeacus, and Minos judge the souls of the dead and decide whether to inflict eternal torment upon them. (Rhadamanthus and Aeacus decide the judgement and if they don't agree, Minos close the debate and make a judgement that can not be contested).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But the nature of these three judges is still a mystery to me. Are they really impartial, or are they sadistic people who enjoy tormenting the souls of the dead? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any information about this is appreciated, especially if it comes from Dante!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6248" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1449" RevisionGUID="52de8812-fbee-4c26-82cf-bcb907636da6" CreationDate="2016-02-18T02:12:35.983" UserId="91" Text="There are two ways to answer this: the reputation according to the highly-romanticised ROTK, and the historical person. According to fiction, he is **completely without achievement yet his greatness speaks for itself** once you meet him. In reality, he was a **highly intelligent, well-connected, but inexperienced young man, with the reputation to match**, i.e. not much.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##ROTK&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is true that before serving Liu Bei, Zhuge Liang was completely inexperienced, at least as a strategist. Actually, the novel deliberately leaves the question of how he earned his reputation unanswered. His reputation, at least to Liu, stemmed solely from recommendation from very wise and talented men: [Sima Hui][1], [Xu Shu][2] and other peers, all who insisted that Zhuge was even greater than they. You, like Liu, are meant to see Zhuge as a great mystery, and be intrigued: just who is this man, who has no accomplishments at all, and yet is highly regarded by none other than Xu Shu, the man who read Cao Ren like a book?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The novel teases at all this during the [*three visits to the thatched cottage*][3] sequence, one of the best written parts and the [midpoint][4] of the Liu Bei arc. Here the mystery and intrigue gets whipped up into a frenzy:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Sima Hui tells how Zhuge believes that Xu Shu and his friends may be capable enough to become [commandery][5] administrators, but he is as capable as [Guan Zhong][6] and [Yue Yi][7]. [Guan Yu][8] is incredulous, but Sima believes that Zhuge is even greater, comparable to [Jiang Ziya][9] and [Zhang Liang][10]. Those two men are widely considered among the greatest strategists in Chinese history, comparable to Alexander the Great or Hannibal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; 時雲長在側曰：「某聞管仲、樂毅，乃春秋戰國名人，功蓋寰宇。孔明自比此二人，毋乃太過？」徽笑曰：「以吾觀之，不當比此二人。我欲另以二人比之。」雲長問那二人。徽曰：「可比興周八百年之姜子牙，旺漢四百年之張子房也。」&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- On their first trip, the [three brothers][11] encounter simple farmers singing something composed by Zhuge, whose short lyrics basically described the meaning of life. This establishes him as a philosopher of incomparable wisdom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; 次日，玄德同關、張并從人等來隆中，遙望山畔數人，荷鋤耕於田間，而作歌曰：&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; 蒼天如圓蓋，陸地似棋局。&#xD;&#xA;世人黑白分，往來爭榮辱。&#xD;&#xA;榮者自安安，辱者定碌碌。&#xD;&#xA;南陽有隱居，高眠臥不足。&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- When they reach his residence, it is described as having the serenity of heaven on earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; 不數里，遙望臥龍岡，果然清景異常。&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- During the trips, Liu repeatedly encounters people - friends, family of Zhuge - singing or reciting poems of great wisdom and insight, and he mistakes them all for Zhuge at first. Zhuge is so awesome that anyone related to him becomes wise also.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- When they finally catch Zhuge present, he is sleeping. When he finally wakes, he composes a poem on the spot. He's just that good.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; 又立了一個時辰，孔明纔醒，口吟詩曰：&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; 大夢誰先覺？&#xD;&#xA;平生我自知。&#xD;&#xA;草堂春睡足，&#xD;&#xA;窗外日遲遲。&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later when Zhuge presents his [Longzhong Plan][12], his reputation is sealed. We, like Liu, are completely certain that Zhuge is the bee's knees. [Bowang][13] was just a demonstration to convince dunces like Guan and Zhang.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##In Reality&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zhuge had powerful connections and wasn't some outsider as the novel depicts. However his own reputation wasn't that great; only his closest friends recognised his talent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- According to his biography in [*Records of the Three Kingdoms*][14], he was self-confident, and **compared himself to Guan Zhong and Yue Yi, but this opinion was not widely shared**. In fact, *only his friends* (such as Xu Shu) agreed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; 每自比於管仲、樂毅，時人莫之許也。惟博陵崔州平、潁川徐庶元直與亮友善，謂為信然。&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Despite his then-current occupation as farmer, he was well-connected and was previously being groomed to a life as public official. Unlike the novel which depicts him as a near-mythical hermit-farmer unknown to the outside world, he would have been **well-known at least among the [Jing Province][15] gentry**. He comes from a family of public officials: **one of his ancestors was a Colonel Director of Retainers** `漢司隸校尉諸葛豐後也。`. **His father was vice-administrator of a commandery** `父圭，字君貢，漢末為太山郡丞。`. **His brother [Zhuge Jin][16] was already a high-ranking and trusted official within the [Wu][17] court**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- His uncle/foster father was quite well connected: **he was a direct subordinate to [Liu Biao][18]** `玄素與荊州牧劉表有舊，往依之。`; **he was a commandery administrator under [Yuan Shu][19]**, and even managed to get Zhuge a (minor) official position `從父玄為袁術所署豫章太守，玄將亮及亮弟均之官`.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##Why would Liu personally visit Zhuge?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This leaves very interesting questions about the *three visits*. Given Zhuge's reputation, which wasn't that great, why would a famous warlord like Liu personally attempt to visit him in a remote village, *thrice*?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Here the historical records *contradict*.** Both *Records of the Three Kingdoms*, the most reliable, and (the first) [*Chu Shi Biao*][20], authored by Zhuge himself, say that the three visits did happen. However according to [*Brief Account of Wei*][21] and *Jiuzhou Chunqiu*, **it was the other way around: Zhuge visited Liu.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to this interesting account, Zhuge visited Liu but was ignored due to his youth. When all the other guests left, Zhuge talked to Liu and presented a plan to conscript and tax the unregistered war refugees. This greatly impressed Liu and Zhuge was treated as an honoured guest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **亮乃北行見備**，備與亮非舊，又以其年少，以諸生意待之。坐集既畢，眾賓皆去，而亮獨留，備亦不問其所欲言。備性好結毦，時適有人以髦牛尾與備者，備因手自結之。亮乃進曰：「明將軍當復有遠志，但結毦而已邪！」備知亮非常人也，乃投毦而答曰：「是何言與！我聊以忘憂耳。」亮遂言曰：「將軍度劉鎮南孰與曹公邪？」備曰：「不及。」亮又曰：「將軍自度何如也？」備曰：「亦不如。」曰：「今皆不及，而將軍之眾不過數千人，以此待敵，得無非計乎！」備曰：「我亦愁之，當若之何？」亮曰：「今荊州非少人也，而著籍者寡，平居發調，則人心不悅；可語鎮南，令國中凡有游戶，皆使自實，因錄以益眾可也。」備從其計，故眾遂強。**備由此知亮有英略，乃以上客禮之。**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's a minority opinion that this account is truthful, and the *three visits* didn't happen. **There's another, purely conjectural opinion that *both* are truthful**; perhaps Zhuge visited Liu first, earned his trust, then Liu later visited Zhuge where they discussed the Longzhong Plan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The mainstream opinion is that *Records* and *Chu Shi Biao* are reliable. But there is doubt as to exactly how the *three visits* worked out. *Records* is extremely brief: &quot;[Liu] visited thrice, and met [with Zhuge].&quot; `凡三往，乃見。` [*Chu Shi Biao* is a bit more detailed][22]: &quot;[Liu] lowered himself and visited me thrice in the thatched cottage, where he consulted me on the affairs of our time.&quot; `先帝不以臣卑鄙，猥自枉屈，三顧臣於草廬之中，諮臣以當世之事` The way *Chu Shi Biao* depicts it suggests an alternate version of the *three visits*: **Liu visited and met Zhuge thrice**. This is more believable, as visiting thrice but only meeting on the third occasion would have required uncommon patience (or desperation) on Liu's part. The way *Records* is written, it could be interpreted either way. One other thing: [*thrice* in classical Chinese also has the meaning of *many times*][23]. That is, Liu visited Zhuge repeatedly, over a long time span, where they slowly built up trust in each other, and formed the Longzhong Plan. This version is much more plausible than the novel's, where Zhuge presents the very detailed Longzhong Plan *on his first meeting with Liu*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But let's say we take the mainstream position that it was Liu who first visited Zhuge, and whatever happened - whether Liu visited thrice, or many times, and whether he met Zhuge on all occasions or only after three visits - we still need to explain **why Liu would bother with the first visit.** Why didn't he summon for Zhuge, and why would someone of Liu's stature *personally* visit Zhuge, someone with very little renown? Was Liu just a really humble guy, as Zhuge writes in *Chu Shi Biao*?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **Zhuge was highly recommended by Xu Shu and Sima Hui.** This part of the novel is true. According to *Xiangyang Ji*, Sima Hui singled out Zhuge and [Pang Tong][24] as *the* two advisors to recruit from the region, describing them as *crouching dragon* and *young phoenix* respectively.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; 德操曰：「儒生俗士，豈識時務？識時務者在乎俊傑。此間自有伏龍、鳳雛。」備問為誰，曰：「諸葛孔明、龐士元也。」&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- According to *Records*, Xu Shu was already highly trusted by Liu, and not only recommended Zhuge, calling him a *crouching dragon*, but said that **Liu should personally visit him.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; 徐庶見先主，先主器之，謂先主曰：「諸葛孔明者，臥龍也，將軍豈願見之乎？」先主曰：「君與俱來。」庶曰：「此人可就見，不可屈致也。將軍宜枉駕顧之。」&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  Whether *crouching dragon* was a well-known alias of Zhuge's, or (as the novel asserts) says that Zhuge was a peerless intellect, or simply used as an exaggeration by Sima and Xu is up to interpretation. It's also unclear how Xu Shu managed to convince Liu; maybe he was very persuasive, or trusted. We also don't know why Liu must visit personally, and not simply summon Zhuge; maybe Xu Shu said something like &quot;you have to go and see for yourself&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Finally, consider Liu's position: although famous, **he was extremely weak and desperate**. At this point he had been taking refuge under Liu Biao for years, **with barely a few thousand troops under his command.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; 曰：「今皆不及，而將軍之眾不過數千人，以此待敵，得無非計乎！」&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  His position is precarious; he has no land of his own, administering the tiny town of [Xinye][25], sandwiched between a powerful enemy ([Cao Cao][26]) and his lord Liu Biao, unable to expand and unable to strengthen lest he becomes a threat to Liu Biao. He desperately needs wise men to form and execute a plan, without which he says &quot;what can I do?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; 備曰：「我亦愁之，當若之何？」&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  Under such circumstances, it may have been easy for people like Xu Shu to convince him to meet with Zhuge personally.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sima_Hui&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xu_Shu&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E4%B8%89%E5%9C%8B%E6%BC%94%E7%BE%A9/%E7%AC%AC037%E5%9B%9E&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://letsschmooze.blogspot.com.au/2010/11/act-two-part-two-midpoint.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commandery_(China)&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guan_Zhong&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yue_Yi&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guan_Yu&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiang_Ziya&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang_Liang_(Western_Han)&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_the_Peach_Garden&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longzhong_Plan&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bowang&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Records_of_the_Three_Kingdoms&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingzhou_(ancient_China)&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuge_Jin&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Wu&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Biao&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuan_Shu&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chu_Shi_Biao&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weil%C3%BCe&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: https://zh.wikisource.org/zh-hant/%E5%89%8D%E5%87%BA%E5%B8%AB%E8%A1%A8&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: http://www.zdic.net/z/14/js/4E09.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pang_Tong&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinye_County&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cao_Cao" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6249" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1449" RevisionGUID="a075b0a9-feea-4dad-b61b-61f6b5b75605" CreationDate="2016-02-18T02:37:05.520" UserId="91" Comment="handsome" Text="There are two ways to answer this: the reputation according to the highly-romanticised ROTK, and the historical person. According to fiction, he is **completely without achievement yet his greatness speaks for itself** once you meet him. In reality, he was a **highly intelligent, well-connected, but inexperienced young man, with the reputation to match**, i.e. not much.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##ROTK&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is true that before serving Liu Bei, Zhuge Liang was completely inexperienced, at least as a strategist. Actually, the novel deliberately leaves the question of how he earned his reputation unanswered. His reputation, at least to Liu, stemmed solely from recommendation from very wise and talented men: [Sima Hui][1], [Xu Shu][2] and other peers, all who insisted that Zhuge was even greater than they. You, like Liu, are meant to see Zhuge as a great mystery, and be intrigued: just who is this man, who has no accomplishments at all, and yet is highly regarded by none other than Xu Shu, the man who read Cao Ren like a book?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The novel teases at all this during the [*three visits to the thatched cottage*][3] sequence, one of the best written parts and the [midpoint][4] of the Liu Bei arc. Here the mystery and intrigue gets whipped up into a frenzy:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Sima Hui tells how Zhuge believes that Xu Shu and his friends may be capable enough to become [commandery][5] administrators, but he is as capable as [Guan Zhong][6] and [Yue Yi][7]. [Guan Yu][8] is incredulous, but Sima believes that Zhuge is even greater, comparable to [Jiang Ziya][9] and [Zhang Liang][10]. Those two men are widely considered among the greatest strategists in Chinese history, comparable to Alexander the Great or Hannibal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; 時雲長在側曰：「某聞管仲、樂毅，乃春秋戰國名人，功蓋寰宇。孔明自比此二人，毋乃太過？」徽笑曰：「以吾觀之，不當比此二人。我欲另以二人比之。」雲長問那二人。徽曰：「可比興周八百年之姜子牙，旺漢四百年之張子房也。」&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- On their first trip, the [three brothers][11] encounter simple farmers singing something composed by Zhuge, whose short lyrics basically described the meaning of life. This establishes him as a philosopher of incomparable wisdom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; 次日，玄德同關、張并從人等來隆中，遙望山畔數人，荷鋤耕於田間，而作歌曰：&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; 蒼天如圓蓋，陸地似棋局。&#xD;&#xA;世人黑白分，往來爭榮辱。&#xD;&#xA;榮者自安安，辱者定碌碌。&#xD;&#xA;南陽有隱居，高眠臥不足。&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- When they reach his residence, it is described as having the serenity of heaven on earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; 不數里，遙望臥龍岡，果然清景異常。&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- During the trips, Liu repeatedly encounters people - friends, family of Zhuge - singing or reciting poems of great wisdom and insight, and he mistakes them all for Zhuge at first. Zhuge is so awesome that anyone related to him becomes wise also.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- When they finally catch Zhuge present, he is sleeping. When he finally wakes, he composes a poem on the spot. He's just that good.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; 又立了一個時辰，孔明纔醒，口吟詩曰：&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; 大夢誰先覺？&#xD;&#xA;平生我自知。&#xD;&#xA;草堂春睡足，&#xD;&#xA;窗外日遲遲。&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later when Zhuge presents his [Longzhong Plan][12], his reputation is sealed. We, like Liu, are completely certain that Zhuge is the bee's knees. [Bowang][13] was just a demonstration to convince dunces like Guan and Zhang.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##In Reality&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zhuge had powerful connections and wasn't some outsider as the novel depicts. However his own reputation wasn't that great; only his closest friends recognised his talent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- According to his biography in [*Records of the Three Kingdoms*][14], he was self-confident, and **compared himself to Guan Zhong and Yue Yi, but this opinion was not widely shared**. In fact, *only his friends* (such as Xu Shu) agreed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; 每自比於管仲、樂毅，時人莫之許也。惟博陵崔州平、潁川徐庶元直與亮友善，謂為信然。&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Despite his then-current occupation as farmer, he was well-connected and was previously being groomed to a life as public official. Unlike the novel which depicts him as a near-mythical hermit-farmer unknown to the outside world, he would have been **well-known at least among the [Jing Province][15] gentry**. He comes from a family of public officials: **one of his ancestors was a Colonel Director of Retainers** `漢司隸校尉諸葛豐後也。`. **His father was vice-administrator of a commandery** `父圭，字君貢，漢末為太山郡丞。`. **His brother [Zhuge Jin][16] was already a high-ranking and trusted official within the [Wu][17] court**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- His uncle/foster father was quite well connected: **he was a direct subordinate to [Liu Biao][18]** `玄素與荊州牧劉表有舊，往依之。`; **he was a commandery administrator under [Yuan Shu][19]**, and even managed to get Zhuge a (minor) official position `從父玄為袁術所署豫章太守，玄將亮及亮弟均之官`.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##Why would Liu personally visit Zhuge?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This leaves very interesting questions about the *three visits*. Given Zhuge's reputation, which wasn't that great, why would a famous warlord like Liu personally attempt to visit him in a remote village, *thrice*?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Here the historical records *contradict*.** Both *Records of the Three Kingdoms*, the most reliable, and (the first) [*Chu Shi Biao*][20], authored by Zhuge himself, say that the three visits did happen. However according to [*Brief Account of Wei*][21] and *Jiuzhou Chunqiu*, **it was the other way around: Zhuge visited Liu.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to this interesting account, Zhuge visited Liu but was ignored due to his youth. When all the other guests left, Zhuge talked to Liu and presented a plan to conscript and tax the unregistered war refugees. This greatly impressed Liu and Zhuge was treated as an honoured guest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **亮乃北行見備**，備與亮非舊，又以其年少，以諸生意待之。坐集既畢，眾賓皆去，而亮獨留，備亦不問其所欲言。備性好結毦，時適有人以髦牛尾與備者，備因手自結之。亮乃進曰：「明將軍當復有遠志，但結毦而已邪！」備知亮非常人也，乃投毦而答曰：「是何言與！我聊以忘憂耳。」亮遂言曰：「將軍度劉鎮南孰與曹公邪？」備曰：「不及。」亮又曰：「將軍自度何如也？」備曰：「亦不如。」曰：「今皆不及，而將軍之眾不過數千人，以此待敵，得無非計乎！」備曰：「我亦愁之，當若之何？」亮曰：「今荊州非少人也，而著籍者寡，平居發調，則人心不悅；可語鎮南，令國中凡有游戶，皆使自實，因錄以益眾可也。」備從其計，故眾遂強。**備由此知亮有英略，乃以上客禮之。**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's a minority opinion that this account is truthful, and the *three visits* didn't happen. **There's another, purely conjectural opinion that *both* are truthful**; perhaps Zhuge visited Liu first, earned his trust, then Liu later visited Zhuge where they discussed the Longzhong Plan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The mainstream opinion is that *Records* and *Chu Shi Biao* are reliable. But there is doubt as to exactly how the *three visits* worked out. *Records* is extremely brief: &quot;[Liu] visited thrice, and met [with Zhuge].&quot; `凡三往，乃見。` [*Chu Shi Biao* is a bit more detailed][22]: &quot;[Liu] lowered himself and visited me thrice in the thatched cottage, where he consulted me on the affairs of our time.&quot; `先帝不以臣卑鄙，猥自枉屈，三顧臣於草廬之中，諮臣以當世之事` The way *Chu Shi Biao* depicts it suggests an alternate version of the *three visits*: **Liu visited and met Zhuge thrice**. This is more believable, as visiting thrice but only meeting on the third occasion would have required uncommon patience (or desperation) on Liu's part. The way *Records* is written, it could be interpreted either way. One other thing: [*thrice* in classical Chinese also has the meaning of *many times*][23]. That is, Liu visited Zhuge repeatedly, over a long time span, where they slowly built up trust in each other, and formed the Longzhong Plan. This version is much more plausible than the novel's, where Zhuge presents the very detailed Longzhong Plan *on his first meeting with Liu*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But let's say we take the mainstream position that it was Liu who first visited Zhuge, and whatever happened - whether Liu visited thrice, or many times, and whether he met Zhuge on all occasions or only after three visits - we still need to explain **why Liu would bother with the first visit.** Why didn't he summon for Zhuge, and why would someone of Liu's stature *personally* visit Zhuge, someone with very little renown? Was Liu just a really humble guy, as Zhuge writes in *Chu Shi Biao*?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **Zhuge was highly recommended by Xu Shu and Sima Hui.** This part of the novel is true. According to *Xiangyang Ji*, Sima Hui singled out Zhuge and [Pang Tong][24] as *the* two advisors to recruit from the region, describing them as *crouching dragon* and *young phoenix* respectively.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; 德操曰：「儒生俗士，豈識時務？識時務者在乎俊傑。此間自有伏龍、鳳雛。」備問為誰，曰：「諸葛孔明、龐士元也。」&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- According to *Records*, Xu Shu was already highly trusted by Liu, and not only recommended Zhuge, calling him a *crouching dragon*, but said that **Liu should personally visit him.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; 徐庶見先主，先主器之，謂先主曰：「諸葛孔明者，臥龍也，將軍豈願見之乎？」先主曰：「君與俱來。」庶曰：「此人可就見，不可屈致也。將軍宜枉駕顧之。」&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  Whether *crouching dragon* was a well-known alias of Zhuge's, or (as the novel asserts) says that Zhuge was a peerless intellect, or simply used as an exaggeration by Sima and Xu is up to interpretation. It's also unclear how Xu Shu managed to convince Liu; maybe he was very persuasive, or trusted. We also don't know why Liu must visit personally, and not simply summon Zhuge; maybe Xu Shu said something like &quot;you have to go and see for yourself&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **He was handsome and tall.** In those days looking good was considered a virtue in and of itself. Even *Records* bothers to mention that he is 8 [*chi*][25] tall (basically 6 foot) `身長八尺`. There's an interesting anecdote of Cao Cao disguising one of his more handsome officials as himself, and himself as a guard, when meeting a Hun envoy because he was ashamed of being short and ugly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Finally, consider Liu's position: although famous, **he was extremely weak and desperate**. At this point he had been taking refuge under Liu Biao for years, **with barely a few thousand troops under his command.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; 曰：「今皆不及，而將軍之眾不過數千人，以此待敵，得無非計乎！」&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  His position is precarious; he has no land of his own, administering the tiny town of [Xinye][26], sandwiched between a powerful enemy ([Cao Cao][27]) and his lord Liu Biao, unable to expand and unable to strengthen lest he becomes a threat to Liu Biao. He desperately needs wise men to form and execute a plan, without which he says &quot;what can I do?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; 備曰：「我亦愁之，當若之何？」&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  Under such circumstances, it may have been easy for people like Xu Shu to convince him to meet with Zhuge personally.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sima_Hui&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xu_Shu&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E4%B8%89%E5%9C%8B%E6%BC%94%E7%BE%A9/%E7%AC%AC037%E5%9B%9E&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://letsschmooze.blogspot.com.au/2010/11/act-two-part-two-midpoint.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commandery_(China)&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guan_Zhong&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yue_Yi&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guan_Yu&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiang_Ziya&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang_Liang_(Western_Han)&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_the_Peach_Garden&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longzhong_Plan&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bowang&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Records_of_the_Three_Kingdoms&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingzhou_(ancient_China)&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuge_Jin&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Wu&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Biao&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuan_Shu&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chu_Shi_Biao&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weil%C3%BCe&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: https://zh.wikisource.org/zh-hant/%E5%89%8D%E5%87%BA%E5%B8%AB%E8%A1%A8&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: http://www.zdic.net/z/14/js/4E09.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pang_Tong&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi_(unit)&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinye_County&#xD;&#xA;  [27]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cao_Cao" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6250" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="911" RevisionGUID="0bab0d3e-d7c8-43cb-a065-05c9f12ab80b" CreationDate="2016-02-18T21:03:59.060" UserId="42" Comment="25" />
  <row Id="6251" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1450" RevisionGUID="34f526ae-e4e3-42f8-9896-a75abaf2b996" CreationDate="2016-02-18T21:39:18.817" UserId="1235" Text="zeus was a great greek god, iseous was a roman god and jesus is the christian faith messiah who is also referred to as son of man now my question is what is the origin of the name jesus and what is its relationship with zeus and iseous" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6252" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1450" RevisionGUID="34f526ae-e4e3-42f8-9896-a75abaf2b996" CreationDate="2016-02-18T21:39:18.817" UserId="1235" Text="what is the relationship between Jesus, iseous, and zeus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6253" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1450" RevisionGUID="34f526ae-e4e3-42f8-9896-a75abaf2b996" CreationDate="2016-02-18T21:39:18.817" UserId="1235" Text="|gods|history|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6254" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1450" RevisionGUID="aef47da3-4f50-43ac-a648-30964c408b10" CreationDate="2016-02-18T21:49:26.200" UserId="42" Comment="added 5 characters in body; edited title" Text="Zeus was a great greek god, Iseous was a roman god and Jesus is the christian faith messiah, who is also referred to as &quot;son of man.&quot;  My question is:  What is the origin of the name Jesus, and what is its relationship with Zeus and Iseous?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6255" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1450" RevisionGUID="aef47da3-4f50-43ac-a648-30964c408b10" CreationDate="2016-02-18T21:49:26.200" UserId="42" Comment="added 5 characters in body; edited title" Text="What is the relationship between Jesus, Iseous, and Zeus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6256" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1449" RevisionGUID="0f3bacb4-14c4-42aa-803c-42b20bed0fb5" CreationDate="2016-02-18T23:31:31.450" UserId="91" Comment="huang chengyan" Text="There are two ways to answer this: the reputation according to the highly-romanticised ROTK, and the historical person. According to fiction, he is **completely without achievement yet his greatness speaks for itself** once you meet him. In reality, he was a **highly intelligent, well-connected, but inexperienced young man, with the reputation to match**, i.e. not much.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##ROTK&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is true that before serving Liu Bei, Zhuge Liang was completely inexperienced, at least as a strategist. Actually, the novel deliberately leaves the question of how he earned his reputation unanswered. His reputation, at least to Liu, stemmed solely from recommendation from very wise and talented men: [Sima Hui][1], [Xu Shu][2] and other peers, all who insisted that Zhuge was even greater than they. You, like Liu, are meant to see Zhuge as a great mystery, and be intrigued: just who is this man, who has no accomplishments at all, and yet is highly regarded by none other than Xu Shu, the man who read Cao Ren like a book?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The novel teases at all this during the [*three visits to the thatched cottage*][3] sequence, one of the best written parts and the [midpoint][4] of the Liu Bei arc. Here the mystery and intrigue gets whipped up into a frenzy:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Sima Hui tells how Zhuge believes that Xu Shu and his friends may be capable enough to become [commandery][5] administrators, but he is as capable as [Guan Zhong][6] and [Yue Yi][7]. [Guan Yu][8] is incredulous, but Sima believes that Zhuge is even greater, comparable to [Jiang Ziya][9] and [Zhang Liang][10]. Those two men are widely considered among the greatest strategists in Chinese history, comparable to Alexander the Great or Hannibal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; 時雲長在側曰：「某聞管仲、樂毅，乃春秋戰國名人，功蓋寰宇。孔明自比此二人，毋乃太過？」徽笑曰：「以吾觀之，不當比此二人。我欲另以二人比之。」雲長問那二人。徽曰：「可比興周八百年之姜子牙，旺漢四百年之張子房也。」&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- On their first trip, the [three brothers][11] encounter simple farmers singing something composed by Zhuge, whose short lyrics basically described the meaning of life. This establishes him as a philosopher of incomparable wisdom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; 次日，玄德同關、張并從人等來隆中，遙望山畔數人，荷鋤耕於田間，而作歌曰：&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; 蒼天如圓蓋，陸地似棋局。&#xD;&#xA;世人黑白分，往來爭榮辱。&#xD;&#xA;榮者自安安，辱者定碌碌。&#xD;&#xA;南陽有隱居，高眠臥不足。&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- When they reach his residence, it is described as having the serenity of heaven on earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; 不數里，遙望臥龍岡，果然清景異常。&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- During the trips, Liu repeatedly encounters people - friends, family of Zhuge - singing or reciting poems of great wisdom and insight, and he mistakes them all for Zhuge at first. Zhuge is so awesome that anyone related to him becomes wise also.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- When they finally catch Zhuge present, he is sleeping. When he finally wakes, he composes a poem on the spot. He's just that good.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; 又立了一個時辰，孔明纔醒，口吟詩曰：&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; 大夢誰先覺？&#xD;&#xA;平生我自知。&#xD;&#xA;草堂春睡足，&#xD;&#xA;窗外日遲遲。&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later when Zhuge presents his [Longzhong Plan][12], his reputation is sealed. We, like Liu, are completely certain that Zhuge is the bee's knees. [Bowang][13] was just a demonstration to convince dunces like Guan and Zhang.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##In Reality&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zhuge had powerful connections and wasn't some outsider as the novel depicts. However his own reputation wasn't that great; only his closest friends recognised his talent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- According to his biography in [*Records of the Three Kingdoms*][14], he was self-confident, and **compared himself to Guan Zhong and Yue Yi, but this opinion was not widely shared**. In fact, *only his friends* (such as Xu Shu) agreed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; 每自比於管仲、樂毅，時人莫之許也。惟博陵崔州平、潁川徐庶元直與亮友善，謂為信然。&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Despite his then-current occupation as farmer, he was well-connected and was previously being groomed to a life as public official. Unlike the novel which depicts him as a near-mythical hermit-farmer unknown to the outside world, he would have been **well-known at least among the [Jing Province][15] gentry**. He comes from a family of public officials: **one of his ancestors was a Colonel Director of Retainers** `漢司隸校尉諸葛豐後也。`. **His father was vice-administrator of a commandery** `父圭，字君貢，漢末為太山郡丞。`. **His brother [Zhuge Jin][16] was already a high-ranking and trusted official within the [Wu][17] court**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- He's also **related to [Liu Biao][18] by marriage**. It's a bit indirect though, and it goes like this: his father in law, [Huang Chengyan][19], married the elder daughter of Cai Feng, who also had a son (the influential general [Cai Mao][20]) and a daughter who married Liu Biao ([Lady Cai][21]). Zhuge can call Liu Biao &quot;uncle in law&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- His uncle/foster father was quite well connected: **he was a direct subordinate to Liu Biao** `玄素與荊州牧劉表有舊，往依之。`; **he was a commandery administrator under [Yuan Shu][22]**, and even managed to get Zhuge a (minor) official position `從父玄為袁術所署豫章太守，玄將亮及亮弟均之官`.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##Why would Liu personally visit Zhuge?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This leaves very interesting questions about the *three visits*. Given Zhuge's reputation, which wasn't that great, why would a famous warlord like Liu personally attempt to visit him in a remote village, *thrice*?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Here the historical records *contradict*.** Both *Records of the Three Kingdoms*, the most reliable, and (the first) [*Chu Shi Biao*][23], authored by Zhuge himself, say that the three visits did happen. However according to [*Brief Account of Wei*][24] and *Jiuzhou Chunqiu*, **it was the other way around: Zhuge visited Liu.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to this interesting account, Zhuge visited Liu but was ignored due to his youth. When all the other guests left, Zhuge talked to Liu and presented a plan to conscript and tax the unregistered war refugees. This greatly impressed Liu and Zhuge was treated as an honoured guest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **亮乃北行見備**，備與亮非舊，又以其年少，以諸生意待之。坐集既畢，眾賓皆去，而亮獨留，備亦不問其所欲言。備性好結毦，時適有人以髦牛尾與備者，備因手自結之。亮乃進曰：「明將軍當復有遠志，但結毦而已邪！」備知亮非常人也，乃投毦而答曰：「是何言與！我聊以忘憂耳。」亮遂言曰：「將軍度劉鎮南孰與曹公邪？」備曰：「不及。」亮又曰：「將軍自度何如也？」備曰：「亦不如。」曰：「今皆不及，而將軍之眾不過數千人，以此待敵，得無非計乎！」備曰：「我亦愁之，當若之何？」亮曰：「今荊州非少人也，而著籍者寡，平居發調，則人心不悅；可語鎮南，令國中凡有游戶，皆使自實，因錄以益眾可也。」備從其計，故眾遂強。**備由此知亮有英略，乃以上客禮之。**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's a minority opinion that this account is truthful, and the *three visits* didn't happen. **There's another, purely conjectural opinion that *both* are truthful**; perhaps Zhuge visited Liu first, earned his trust, then Liu later visited Zhuge where they discussed the Longzhong Plan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The mainstream opinion is that *Records* and *Chu Shi Biao* are reliable. But there is doubt as to exactly how the *three visits* worked out. *Records* is extremely brief: &quot;[Liu] visited thrice, and met [with Zhuge].&quot; `凡三往，乃見。` [*Chu Shi Biao* is a bit more detailed][25]: &quot;[Liu] lowered himself and visited me thrice in the thatched cottage, where he consulted me on the affairs of our time.&quot; `先帝不以臣卑鄙，猥自枉屈，三顧臣於草廬之中，諮臣以當世之事` The way *Chu Shi Biao* depicts it suggests an alternate version of the *three visits*: **Liu visited and met Zhuge thrice**. This is more believable, as visiting thrice but only meeting on the third occasion would have required uncommon patience (or desperation) on Liu's part. The way *Records* is written, it could be interpreted either way. One other thing: [*thrice* in classical Chinese also has the meaning of *many times*][26]. That is, Liu visited Zhuge repeatedly, over a long time span, where they slowly built up trust in each other, and formed the Longzhong Plan. This version is much more plausible than the novel's, where Zhuge presents the very detailed Longzhong Plan *on his first meeting with Liu*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But let's say we take the mainstream position that it was Liu who first visited Zhuge, and whatever happened - whether Liu visited thrice, or many times, and whether he met Zhuge on all occasions or only after three visits - we still need to explain **why Liu would bother with the first visit.** Why didn't he summon for Zhuge, and why would someone of Liu's stature *personally* visit Zhuge, someone with very little renown? Was Liu just a really humble guy, as Zhuge writes in *Chu Shi Biao*?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **Zhuge was highly recommended by Xu Shu and Sima Hui.** This part of the novel is true. According to *Xiangyang Ji*, Sima Hui singled out Zhuge and [Pang Tong][27] as *the* two advisors to recruit from the region, describing them as *crouching dragon* and *young phoenix* respectively.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; 德操曰：「儒生俗士，豈識時務？識時務者在乎俊傑。此間自有伏龍、鳳雛。」備問為誰，曰：「諸葛孔明、龐士元也。」&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- According to *Records*, Xu Shu was already highly trusted by Liu, and not only recommended Zhuge, calling him a *crouching dragon*, but said that **Liu should personally visit him.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; 徐庶見先主，先主器之，謂先主曰：「諸葛孔明者，臥龍也，將軍豈願見之乎？」先主曰：「君與俱來。」庶曰：「此人可就見，不可屈致也。將軍宜枉駕顧之。」&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  Whether *crouching dragon* was a well-known alias of Zhuge's, or (as the novel asserts) says that Zhuge was a peerless intellect, or simply used as an exaggeration by Sima and Xu is up to interpretation. It's also unclear how Xu Shu managed to convince Liu; maybe he was very persuasive, or trusted. We also don't know why Liu must visit personally, and not simply summon Zhuge; maybe Xu Shu said something like &quot;you have to go and see for yourself&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **He was handsome and tall.** In those days looking good was considered a virtue in and of itself. Even *Records* bothers to mention that he is 8 [*chi*][28] tall (basically 6 foot) `身長八尺`. There's an interesting anecdote of Cao Cao disguising one of his more handsome officials as himself, and himself as a guard, when meeting a Hun envoy because he was ashamed of being short and ugly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Finally, consider Liu's position: although famous, **he was extremely weak and desperate**. At this point he had been taking refuge under Liu Biao for years, **with barely a few thousand troops under his command.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; 曰：「今皆不及，而將軍之眾不過數千人，以此待敵，得無非計乎！」&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  His position is precarious; he has no land of his own, administering the tiny town of [Xinye][29], sandwiched between a powerful enemy ([Cao Cao][30]) and his lord Liu Biao, unable to expand and unable to strengthen lest he becomes a threat to Liu Biao. He desperately needs wise men to form and execute a plan, without which he says &quot;what can I do?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &gt; 備曰：「我亦愁之，當若之何？」&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  Under such circumstances, it may have been easy for people like Xu Shu to convince him to meet with Zhuge personally.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sima_Hui&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xu_Shu&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E4%B8%89%E5%9C%8B%E6%BC%94%E7%BE%A9/%E7%AC%AC037%E5%9B%9E&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://letsschmooze.blogspot.com.au/2010/11/act-two-part-two-midpoint.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commandery_(China)&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guan_Zhong&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yue_Yi&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guan_Yu&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiang_Ziya&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang_Liang_(Western_Han)&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_the_Peach_Garden&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longzhong_Plan&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bowang&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Records_of_the_Three_Kingdoms&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingzhou_(ancient_China)&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuge_Jin&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Wu&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Biao&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huang_Chengyan&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cai_Mao&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Cai_(Liu_Biao%27s_wife)&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuan_Shu&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chu_Shi_Biao&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weil%C3%BCe&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: https://zh.wikisource.org/zh-hant/%E5%89%8D%E5%87%BA%E5%B8%AB%E8%A1%A8&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: http://www.zdic.net/z/14/js/4E09.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [27]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pang_Tong&#xD;&#xA;  [28]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi_(unit)&#xD;&#xA;  [29]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinye_County&#xD;&#xA;  [30]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cao_Cao" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6257" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="911" RevisionGUID="55ed325f-b698-4553-aeaa-1b8e93ff7ad7" CreationDate="2016-02-18T23:56:20.193" UserId="91" Comment="add rotk tag" Text="|chinese|rotk|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6258" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="911" RevisionGUID="55ed325f-b698-4553-aeaa-1b8e93ff7ad7" CreationDate="2016-02-18T23:56:20.193" Comment="Proposed by 91 approved by -1 edit id of 300" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6259" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="911" RevisionGUID="54c6630f-2074-41be-acca-28bc5d3fa824" CreationDate="2016-02-18T23:56:20.193" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="add rotk tag" Text="|chinese|romance-three-kingdoms|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6260" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1451" RevisionGUID="58b536c1-edc4-4d71-8a60-e6f21de63985" CreationDate="2016-02-19T00:11:25.713" UserId="967" Text="Zeus is Greek. This Iseous guy does not seem to exist.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the origin of the name Jesus, well Iseous seems to play a role here interestingly.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jesus in Greek means &quot;Joshua&quot; in another language (Arabic I think). Iseous is another name for Joshua, and sort of looks like &quot;Ιησούς&quot; (Jesus in Greek). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jesus means God saves, if that's any help." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6261" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1452" RevisionGUID="8d320f99-8676-4e7a-bd2d-21a4c7142957" CreationDate="2016-02-19T02:43:39.423" UserId="398" Text="Jesus is the Medieval Latin spelling of Iesus (the 'i' is consonantal), itself derived from the Greek Ἰησοῦς, as bleh noted, which transcribed in Latin characters would be Iesous, close to your Iseous (which does not otherwise exist as a name).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The name is ultimately Semitic, and came into Greek as the Aramaic שׁוּעַ (Yeshua), from the Hebrew יְהוֹשֻׁעַ (Yehoshuah, which in English we usually &quot;translate&quot; to Joshua).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no relationship between that name and Zeus, which is proto-Indo-European and only looks similar to Iesus in its late form—its stem is dio- (whence Dios &quot;of Zeus&quot;, and its many derivatives in names like Dionysus and Diomedes or even Dioscuri, the two &quot;sons of Zeus&quot;). This name ultimately comes from the PIE root \**dewos*, and is related to the Latin *deus*, &#xD;&#xA;Old Persian *daiva*-, both words for god, as well as the Latin *dies* or Russian день (dyen') meaning &quot;day&quot;." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6262" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="39" RevisionGUID="e03d0721-bb10-4447-a4d0-b8fef2fc84bd" CreationDate="2016-02-19T04:18:19.177" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|maya|mesoamerica|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6264" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1450" RevisionGUID="f9fa2173-742c-470a-aa98-3ab684528789" CreationDate="2016-02-20T16:14:43.617" UserId="967" Comment="capitilization" Text="Zeus was a Greek god, Iseous was a Roman god and Jesus is the Christian faith Messiah, who is also referred to as &quot;Son of Man.&quot;  My question is:  What is the origin of the name Jesus, and what is its relationship with Zeus and Iseous?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6265" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1450" RevisionGUID="f9fa2173-742c-470a-aa98-3ab684528789" CreationDate="2016-02-20T16:14:43.617" UserId="967" Comment="capitilization" Text="|greek|roman|gods|christianity|history|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6266" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1450" RevisionGUID="f9fa2173-742c-470a-aa98-3ab684528789" CreationDate="2016-02-20T16:14:43.617" Comment="Proposed by 967 approved by 398, 183 edit id of 301" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6270" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="976" RevisionGUID="5a644a2f-e1b4-48e6-a737-02183a83fcd9" CreationDate="2016-02-20T22:20:36.413" UserId="398" Comment="Sumer, not Sumeria, is the proper nomenclature" Text="#Sumer, sometime in the 4th or 3rd millennium B.C.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My first instinct was to check out [the Wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_dragon#Origin) again. One interesting quote was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The presence of dragons within Chinese culture dates back several thousands of years with the discovery of a dragon statue dating back to the fifth millennium BC from the Yangshao culture in Henan in 1987, and jade badges of rank in coiled form have been excavated from the Hongshan culture circa 4700-2900 BC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That would seem like a likely candidate. Unfortunately, the in-text citations do not work, I can find no other mention of either of these that does not quote Wikipedia verbatim, and this probably doesn't count as mythology, either. Neither are associated with &quot;myths&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I stumbled across [this](http://www.theallineed.com/entertainment/08033180.htm) blog post/whatever-it-is. Either way, it was helpful insofar as it led me somewhere. Citing *Sumerian Mythology*, 1944, 1961, by; Samuel Noah Kramer, it states&#xD;&#xA;&gt; KUR&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sumeria 3rd Millennium B.C.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Since the dragon-slaying theme was an important motif in the Sumerian mythology of the third millennium B. C., it is not unreasonable to assume that many a thread in the texture of the Greek and early Christian dragon tales winds back to Sumerian sources.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; . . .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; We find mention of Kur in three myths from the 4th - 3rd Millennium B.C., (more than a millennium before Tiamat!), In the introductory prologue to the epic tale &quot;Gilgamesh, Enkidu, and the Nether World,&quot;( written on eight tablets - seven excavated in Nippur and one in Ur), Where Enki, the water-god, fights Kur after he learns that The goddess Ereshkigal was carried off violently into the nether world, by Kur. Enki fought Kur from a boat, and Kur fought back savagely with stones of all sizes, and attacked Enki's boat with the primeval waters which it controlled. Unfortunately for us, the author of this tale is so anxious to proceed with the Gilgamesh tale that he doesn't finish the dragon part, and leaves us hanging. It is certain that Enki wins though because he is in the rest of the poem, Kur is not.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; . . .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The second version of the slaying-of-the-dragon myth can be found in &quot;The Feats and Exploits of Ninurta.&quot; (49 tablets) A significant version, due to the fact that it is evident that it was utilized by the Semitic redactors in the creation of the Babylonian Creation Myth featuring Tiamat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In this version, Ninurta, the warrior-god, is the hero of the story. His personified weapon, Sharur, kisses up to him in a drawn out speech extolling the heroic qualities and deeds of Ninurta to convince him to go after Kur, and attach and destroy him. What Sharur has against Kur is not written in the text that is available. Ninurta leaves to do as asked, but finds himself lacking and &quot;flees like a bird&quot;. Sharur though, won't let it go and speaks, reassuring and encouraging Ninurta with his words. &quot;Ninurta now attacks Kur fiercely with all the weapons at his command, and Kur is completely destroyed.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; . . .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The third version of the slaying-of-the-dragon myth can be found in &quot;Inanna and Ebih.&quot; A one hundred and ninety line poem. (12 tablets)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The dragon-slayer in this version of the story is a goddess, Inanna, curiously known as both the goddess of love and also as the goddess of battle and strife, (She must have been married), and is also referred to in many Sumerian hymns as &quot;The Destroyer of Kur.&quot; Kur, is also referred to as The 'mountain,' in the Poem. Did I mention that Kur was also the first fire breathing dragon?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interesting. I decided to learn more.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First, the relevant part of *Sumerian Mythology* appears to be available [here](http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/sum/sum08.htm). No part of it quotes any relevant sections of the myths that imply or outright state that Kur is a dragon. So I decided to find them for myself. (By the way, related notes on many Sumerian myths, including these, can be found [here](http://www.ianlawton.com/mes4.htm)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Gilgamesh, Enkidu, and the Nether World**](http://templeofsumer.org/myth14.html)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The relevant passage appears to be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1 It began in the early days of the world, after the earth and the heavens had been separated. It was a turbulent time. Ereshkigal had been taken by the dragon Kur and Enki was sailing after to put things into the order that they belonged in.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2 The waters that Enki sailed were being pummeled by rocks. The smallest of these hit the side of Enki's boat like they were like hammers. The largest of these hit with the impact of a boulder thrown from a catapult.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is all that remains of the explicit tale of the fight of Kur against Enki.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**The Exploits of Ninurta**](http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr162.htm)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Asag leapt up at the head of the battle. For a club it uprooted the sky, took it in its hand; like a snake it slid its head along the ground. It was a mad dog attacking to kill the helpless, dripping with sweat on its flanks. Like a wall collapsing, the Asag fell on Ninurta the son of Enlil. Like an accursed storm, it howled in a raucous voice; like a gigantic snake, it roared at the Land. It dried up the waters of the Mountains, dragged away the tamarisks, tore the flesh of the Earth and covered her with painful wounds. It set fire to the reed-beds, bathed the sky in blood, turned it inside out; it dispersed the people there. At that moment, on that day, the fields became black potash, across the whole extent of the horizon, reddish like purple dye -- truly it was so!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Asag](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asag) is often considered to be different from [Kur](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kur). However, [this](http://www.blackdrago.com/fame/kur.htm) (of dubious reputation) states&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Are Asag and Kur synonymous, both referencing a dragon? Or are they different entities attributed as the dark force overcome by Ninurta? Owing to the age of Sumerian literature, and its predecessors adapting the myths, this remains uncertain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Inana and Eibh**](http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr132.htm)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; An, the king of the deities, answered her: &quot;My little one demands the destruction of this mountain -- what is she taking on? Inana demands the destruction of this mountain -- what is she taking on? She demands the destruction of this mountain -- what is she taking on?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;It has poured fearsome terror on the abodes of the gods. It has spread fear among the holy dwellings of the Anuna deities. It has poured its terror and ferocity over this land. It has poured the mountain range's radiance and fear over all the lands. Its arrogance extends grandly to the centre of heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; . . .&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; My lady confronted the mountain range. She advanced step by step. She sharpened both edges of her dagger. She grabbed Ebih's neck as if ripping up esparto grass. She pressed the dagger's teeth into its interior. She roared like thunder.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The rocks forming the body of Ebih clattered down its flanks. From its sides and crevices great serpents spat venom. She damned its forests and cursed its trees. She killed its oak trees with drought. She poured fire on its flanks and made its smoke dense. The goddess established authority over the mountain. Holy Inana did as she wished.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Huh. That's disappointing. The literal interpretation states that Inana's foe is a mountain, not a dragon. Indeed, as [that earlier dubious source](http://www.blackdrago.com/fame/kur.htm) states,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Another disambiguation should be made between Kur the dragon and the myth of Inanna and Ebih. Inanna was the Sumerian goddess of love, battle, and strife and among her many epithets was the 'destroyer of Kur.' In this myth, Kur is also called 'mountain Ebih,' which is a district northeast of Sumer. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Therefore, Inanna overcame Kur, but in this myth, Kur is an hostile land, not a dragon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is the myth being metaphorical when it describes Inana's foe as a mountain?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This myth is doubtful, as are, come to think of it, the other two.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In my (non-expert) opinion, *Gilgamesh, Enkidu, and the Nether World* is not strong evidence for a dragon. The source I gave is the only translation I could find that explicitly calls Kur a dragon. Most others do not refer to that. *Inana and Eibh* also seems to be a lost cause, because, quite literally, Inana is fighting a mountain, not a dragon. I doubt that the myth is being figurative. Mythology tends to be literal, realistic or not.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*The Exploits of Ninurta* seems to be the best evidence available. It says&#xD;&#xA;&gt; like a snake it slid its head along the ground.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; . . .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; like a gigantic snake, it roared at the Land.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; . . .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It set fire to the reed-beds&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Circumstantial? Perhaps. But it seems like a dragon-like creature. I'm calling this one the winner.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now for the date. Embarrassingly enough, I haven't found any date for this other than the one Kramer gave, somewhere in the 4th or 3rd millennium B.C." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6271" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1454" RevisionGUID="8dc59c33-e790-47cd-ad3f-7ecf5db4674a" CreationDate="2016-02-21T05:27:53.047" UserId="1241" Text="I remember reading some years back how missionaries in Tibet were told stories of how prevalent in the 1800's the belief that there were unicorns living in the mountains of Tibet!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do any ancient Tibetan unicorn myths exist?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6272" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1454" RevisionGUID="8dc59c33-e790-47cd-ad3f-7ecf5db4674a" CreationDate="2016-02-21T05:27:53.047" UserId="1241" Text="Are there any ancient unicorn myths that originated from Tibet or its bordering regions?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6273" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1454" RevisionGUID="8dc59c33-e790-47cd-ad3f-7ecf5db4674a" CreationDate="2016-02-21T05:27:53.047" UserId="1241" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6274" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1454" RevisionGUID="5c358d11-c99c-4fb5-88a1-d14370c9d6e0" CreationDate="2016-02-21T08:08:32.050" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6275" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1455" RevisionGUID="1ea2a82b-b3e4-4898-bb84-90bd3eda2f30" CreationDate="2016-02-21T16:57:26.750" UserId="1241" Text="According to folklore, legend or myth, where was the garden of Eden located? The garden of Eden being the earthly paradise where God placed Adam and Eve." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6276" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1455" RevisionGUID="1ea2a82b-b3e4-4898-bb84-90bd3eda2f30" CreationDate="2016-02-21T16:57:26.750" UserId="1241" Text="Where was the &quot;garden of Eden&quot; located?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6277" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1455" RevisionGUID="1ea2a82b-b3e4-4898-bb84-90bd3eda2f30" CreationDate="2016-02-21T16:57:26.750" UserId="1241" Text="|folklore|bible|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6278" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1456" RevisionGUID="ce136af1-88cf-4017-a7a1-8897ab906983" CreationDate="2016-02-21T17:53:20.897" UserId="398" Text="The second book of Genesis (or *Bereshit* in Hebrew) contains the passage:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters. 11 The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin[d] and onyx are also there.) 13 The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush. 14 The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Ashur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Genesis 2.10-14)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is geographically impossible. The Tigris and the Euphrates, for example, which, by the way, did not merge in ancient times, were in Mesopotamia, while Kush is south of Egypt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tigris and Euphrates:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;img src=&quot;https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/37/Empire_akkad.svg/1024px-Empire_akkad.svg.png&quot;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kush:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;img src=&quot;https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/Africa_in_400_BC.jpg&quot;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Havilah appears to be south in Arabia:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 18 They settled from **Havilah** to Shur, which is opposite Egypt in the direction of Assyria. He settled over against all his kinsmen.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Genesis 25.18)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only place plausibly in the mind of the author has to be on the west side of the Fertile Crescent, likely Israel itself, with the rivers being some sort of conceptual boundary for the outer reaches of the land and not the garden itself. Then again, it's myth, so the location, as usual, is imprecise.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interestingly, &quot;paradise&quot; in earlier Mesopotamian literature is called Dilmun and was equally precise, with vague terms indicating &quot;east&quot; (like &quot;where the sun rises&quot;) that probably were not meant to be taken literally. Albright (1922) noted that in general this area attached a paradise-like conception to &quot;the east&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Albright, W. F. 1922. &quot;The Location of the Garden of Eden.&quot; *American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literatures* 39.1: 15–31.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Howard-Carter, Theresa 1987. &quot;Dilmun: At Sea or Not at Sea? A Review Article.&quot; *Journal of Cuneiform Studies* 39.1: 54–117." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6280" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1455" RevisionGUID="607f8f8b-1920-40d9-aad3-acace0517616" CreationDate="2016-02-21T21:24:22.500" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="deleted 6 characters in body; edited tags" Text="According to biblical tradition, where was the garden of Eden located? The garden of Eden being the earthly paradise where God placed Adam and Eve." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6281" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1455" RevisionGUID="607f8f8b-1920-40d9-aad3-acace0517616" CreationDate="2016-02-21T21:24:22.500" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="deleted 6 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|bible|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6283" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1455" RevisionGUID="e89d1e25-dbfc-45b9-b05e-6631f7a1a8b8" CreationDate="2016-02-22T00:13:47.307" UserId="967" Comment="tags added" Text="|christianity|bible|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6284" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1455" RevisionGUID="e89d1e25-dbfc-45b9-b05e-6631f7a1a8b8" CreationDate="2016-02-22T00:13:47.307" Comment="Proposed by 967 approved by 1241 edit id of 302" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6285" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1455" RevisionGUID="75c38418-58d1-4c87-a307-ab438025e787" CreationDate="2016-02-22T00:49:22.970" UserId="398" Comment="removed Christianity because it's not specifically about Christianity, but also Judaism" Text="|bible|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6287" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1457" RevisionGUID="3630490e-78db-4ac7-9839-e95e39e63c1c" CreationDate="2016-02-22T02:20:08.800" UserId="967" Text="Well, here's one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The existence of these Eurasian nomads called the Qiang, who were known as the “goat people” and who practised animals ordeals, may help to account for the fact that later in the West there was “a vigorous and widespread belief in a unicorn inhabiting the table-lands of Tibet—a region included with the “India” of Ctesias—(which) can be traced in existing documents as far back as the time of Genghis Khan, and there is good reason for supposing that it is much older still” (Shepard [1930] 1982, 32). The reality which lay behind this notion was the presence in Tibet of an elusive long horned wild “antelope” called the chiru by the Tibetan nomads, or, by the Mongolians, the orongo (colour plate 7).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So basically, they thought an antelope was a unicorn. As far as I know, it never did anything. I think it's name was &quot;Serou&quot;." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6288" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1454" RevisionGUID="3bbfbb0c-90d5-4f9e-b37b-4b21624f413c" CreationDate="2016-02-22T02:21:45.310" UserId="967" Comment="tags added" Text="|mythical-creatures|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6289" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1454" RevisionGUID="3bbfbb0c-90d5-4f9e-b37b-4b21624f413c" CreationDate="2016-02-22T02:21:45.310" Comment="Proposed by 967 approved by 1241 edit id of 303" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6290" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1458" RevisionGUID="0ed24f74-fb21-4d40-8786-c469746d2ddf" CreationDate="2016-02-22T03:02:24.400" UserId="1245" Text=" - 10.Anklys [misery]&#xD;&#xA; -  9.Hemera [day]&#xD;&#xA; -  8.Aether [ozone]&#xD;&#xA; -  7.Ouranos[heaven]&#xD;&#xA; -  6.Tartarus[abyss]&#xD;&#xA; -  5.Gaea[earth]&#xD;&#xA; -  4.Eros[love]&#xD;&#xA; -  3.Nyx [night]&#xD;&#xA; -  2.Erebos[darkness]&#xD;&#xA; -  1.CHAOS [EXISTENCE BEFORE UNIVERSE]" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6291" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1457" RevisionGUID="aa3d8efd-337c-41f5-9644-4b13608c9fae" CreationDate="2016-02-22T04:29:15.537" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="always cite your sources, it makes it easier for the reader of this answer" Text="Well, here's one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The existence of these Eurasian nomads called the Qiang, who were known as the “goat people” and who practised animals ordeals, may help to account for the fact that later in the West there was “a vigorous and widespread belief in a unicorn inhabiting the table-lands of Tibet—a region included with the “India” of Ctesias—(which) can be traced in existing documents as far back as the time of Genghis Khan, and there is good reason for supposing that it is much older still” (Shepard [1930] 1982, 32). The reality which lay behind this notion was the presence in Tibet of an elusive long horned wild “antelope” called the chiru by the Tibetan nomads, or, by the Mongolians, the orongo (colour plate 7).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source: [The Tibetan Unicorn, chinese-unicorn.com][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So basically, they thought an antelope was a unicorn. As far as I know, it never did anything. I think it's name was &quot;Serou&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://chinese-unicorn.com/ch06/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6292" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="911" RevisionGUID="4bd06a7b-8f5a-4c4b-980d-349dc9d6c9cf" CreationDate="2016-02-22T06:14:39.497" UserId="42" Comment="25" />
  <row Id="6293" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1456" RevisionGUID="cd381f0e-9cd4-4474-8725-e137f45b5982" CreationDate="2016-02-22T13:55:52.330" UserId="398" Comment="deleted 18 characters in body" Text="The second book of Genesis (or *Bereshit* in Hebrew) contains the passage:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters. The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin and onyx are also there.) The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush. The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Ashur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Genesis 2.10-14)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is geographically impossible. The Tigris and the Euphrates, for example, which, by the way, did not merge in ancient times, were in Mesopotamia, while Kush is south of Egypt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tigris and Euphrates:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;img src=&quot;https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/37/Empire_akkad.svg/1024px-Empire_akkad.svg.png&quot;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kush:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;img src=&quot;https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/Africa_in_400_BC.jpg&quot;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Havilah appears to be south in Arabia:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They settled from **Havilah** to Shur, which is opposite Egypt in the direction of Assyria. He settled over against all his kinsmen.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Genesis 25.18)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only place plausibly in the mind of the author has to be on the west side of the Fertile Crescent, likely Israel itself, with the rivers being some sort of conceptual boundary for the outer reaches of the land and not the garden itself. Then again, it's myth, so the location, as usual, is imprecise.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interestingly, &quot;paradise&quot; in earlier Mesopotamian literature is called Dilmun and was equally precise, with vague terms indicating &quot;east&quot; (like &quot;where the sun rises&quot;) that probably were not meant to be taken literally. Albright (1922) noted that in general this area attached a paradise-like conception to &quot;the east&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Albright, W. F. 1922. &quot;The Location of the Garden of Eden.&quot; *American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literatures* 39.1: 15–31.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Howard-Carter, Theresa 1987. &quot;Dilmun: At Sea or Not at Sea? A Review Article.&quot; *Journal of Cuneiform Studies* 39.1: 54–117." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6297" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1459" RevisionGUID="4b46e9be-4fd9-4f1f-8583-2140b94891e3" CreationDate="2016-02-23T23:34:13.870" UserId="967" Text="There was an island, called Ogygia. Apparently, It was an island where Calypso was cursed to stay on forever, because she supported her father, Atlas, in the Titan war. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roughly, where is it? (As specific as you can get)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6298" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1459" RevisionGUID="4b46e9be-4fd9-4f1f-8583-2140b94891e3" CreationDate="2016-02-23T23:34:13.870" UserId="967" Text="Roughly, where was Ogygia?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6299" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1459" RevisionGUID="4b46e9be-4fd9-4f1f-8583-2140b94891e3" CreationDate="2016-02-23T23:34:13.870" UserId="967" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6300" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1460" RevisionGUID="ca0fc989-608d-4743-b06b-90bfe1f861f8" CreationDate="2016-02-23T23:53:42.060" UserId="398" Text="It likely wasn't anywhere. Homer, or rather the author of the *Odyssey*, had some conception of the broader Mediterranean, but it was largely unexplored by the Greeks at that time, and so magical islands didn't need to be mapped onto the known world. You know, now that I say it, it's true in today's fiction, too.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, that didn't stop the ancients from theorizing. Strabo (9.18) thought Ogygia was in the Atlantic Ocean, while Plutarch (*Moralia* 12.26) said it was &quot;five day's sail from Britain&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interestingly, and there's a distinct lack of good research on this topic, but Ogyges, whence the name Ogygia, was tied to both Boeotia and Thessaly (via flood-myths) in early myths. That's clearly not the Ogygia that Homer had in mind, though." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6301" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1461" RevisionGUID="6d2dc156-da38-49e6-8b0c-c4b47dedd0f1" CreationDate="2016-02-24T02:25:34.263" UserId="871" Text="I commend to your attention **www.ldolphin.org/eden** for a look at the theories of Dr.Juris Karins, of Southwest Missouri State University, in Springfield. [Other data on Dr. Karins' far reaching archaeological work in the region was published in the September, 1983, edition of SMITHSONIAN Magazine.] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dr. Karins believes that &quot;Eden&quot; had come into being at roughly 6,000 BC, when the world's sea-levels were considerably lower, because the so-called &quot;Great Ice Age&quot; had locked up vast amounts of water. Essentially, the Persian Gulf was at that time dry land forming an extended delta. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Eden&quot; was located to the east of Bahrain, close by where what are now called the Wadi Rinah and Wadi Batin (which were the remains of the &quot;fossil river&quot; called the Pison.)  The course of the Pison had been conclusively proven by  LANDSAT. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Somewhat to the east had flowed the Euphrates, and to the north flowed the Tigris. The 4th river, the Karun, is the one that had been falsely identified by sloppy translating during the creation of the King James Bible as the &quot;Gush,&quot; or &quot;Kush.&quot; This mistake greatly confused the issue by throwing out a &quot;red herring&quot; in the form of the false reference to Ethiopia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The archaeological evidence supposedly supported the theory that Biblical events in &quot;Eden&quot; had been vague references to interactions or conflicts between &quot;pioneering&quot; farmer-peoples and older hunter-gatherers. The dynamics of this clash purportedly came down to Old Testament writers in the form of the expulsion of an &quot;Adam &amp; Eve&quot; faction from the &quot;Eden&quot; region.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The presumed conditions in &quot;Eden&quot; were certainly attractive, with alluvial (flood) plains from four major rivers converging in a river-valley. The theoretical Eden climate would have been warmer than normal for the region, due to the four large rivers feeding into the area, which had also provided extremely rich soil. Conditions were reportedly very similar to what was found in Egypt, following the annual Nile floods." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6307" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1464" RevisionGUID="2ee51dce-2146-4612-96b8-3de6044fb48f" CreationDate="2016-02-27T02:19:53.147" UserId="967" Text="So, in a myth, Aesculapius cheated death because someone died that wasn't supposed to die.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So how did he do it?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Clarifications: I mean the method, like &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - a potion?&#xD;&#xA; - a incantation?&#xD;&#xA; - anything of the sort?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6308" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1464" RevisionGUID="2ee51dce-2146-4612-96b8-3de6044fb48f" CreationDate="2016-02-27T02:19:53.147" UserId="967" Text="Exactly how did Aesculapius cure death?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6309" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1464" RevisionGUID="2ee51dce-2146-4612-96b8-3de6044fb48f" CreationDate="2016-02-27T02:19:53.147" UserId="967" Text="|greek|aesculapius|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6310" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1464" RevisionGUID="c950c276-07e7-44c6-b5f5-12bea08c9fce" CreationDate="2016-02-27T02:42:09.530" UserId="398" Comment="added 5 characters in body" Text="So, in a myth, Aesculapius cheated death because he brought someone back to life from the dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So how did he do it?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Clarifications: I mean the method, like &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - a potion?&#xD;&#xA; - a incantation?&#xD;&#xA; - anything of the sort?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6311" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1465" RevisionGUID="80af3efd-ba44-4e78-81a2-34e3bff0ebd8" CreationDate="2016-02-27T03:42:47.163" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6312" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1466" RevisionGUID="bb5e9ee4-0257-4fe7-b8e8-3f231127f052" CreationDate="2016-02-27T03:42:47.163" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6313" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1464" RevisionGUID="3fe18889-04ac-4f33-b6e5-9ce6def6292e" CreationDate="2016-02-27T10:13:44.650" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="So, in a myth, Asclepius cheated death because he brought someone back to life from the dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So how did he do it?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Clarifications: I mean the method, like &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - a potion?&#xD;&#xA; - a incantation?&#xD;&#xA; - anything of the sort?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6314" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1464" RevisionGUID="3fe18889-04ac-4f33-b6e5-9ce6def6292e" CreationDate="2016-02-27T10:13:44.650" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Exactly how did Asclepius cure death?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6315" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1464" RevisionGUID="3fe18889-04ac-4f33-b6e5-9ce6def6292e" CreationDate="2016-02-27T10:13:44.650" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6316" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1467" RevisionGUID="eb8049b7-44ed-4ece-bc60-9401eabf7c4f" CreationDate="2016-02-27T10:33:38.957" UserId="57" Text="Ovid describes the process of bringing Hippolytus back to life, in Book 6 of Fasti:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hippolytus fell from the car, and, his limbs entangled by the reins, his mangled body was whirled along, till he gave up the ghost, much to Diana’s rage. “There is no need for grief,” said the son of Coronis, “for I will restore the pious youth to life all unscathed, and to my leech-craft gloomy fate shall yield.” Straightway he drew from an ivory casket simples that before had stood Glaucus’ ghost in good stead, what time the seer went down to pluck the herbs he had remarked, and the snake was succoured by a snake. Thrice he touched the youth’s breast, thrice he spoke healing words; then Hippolytus lifted his head, low laid upon the ground. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All other sources of the story I know of don't mention any details of the resurrection process. Ovid's version is as good as it gets, I'm afraid." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6317" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1468" RevisionGUID="8b137483-be21-41cb-af08-4bf59457d203" CreationDate="2016-02-27T17:20:27.820" UserId="42" Text="Ovid's account provides one explanation, as in @Yannis's answer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Others provide a number of different explanations.  For instance, one explanation has the blood of a Gorgon being used:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For he [Asclepius] had received from Athena the blood that flowed from the veins of the Gorgon, and while he used the blood that flowed from the veins on the left side for the bane of mankind, he used the blood that flowed from the right side for salvation, and by that means he raised the dead.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Biblioteca](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus3.html#10), Pseudo-Appolodorus, 3.10.3&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyginus relates a story that a particular herb was used to perform the feat:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Later, it is said, another snake came there, bringing an herb in its mouth, and placed it on its head. When it had done this, both fled from the place. Where upon Aesculapius, using the same herb, brought Glaucus, too, back to life.   &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Astronomica](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusAstronomica.html#14), Pseudo-Hyginus, 2.14&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarly, Cretan herbs are credited by Propertius:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Asclepius, the Epidaurian god, returned Androgeon to his father’s hearth, by means of Cretan herbs  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Elegies](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/PropertiusBkTwo.htm#anchor_Toc201112249), Propertius, 2.1&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Many, though, would simply chalk it up to his skill as a doctor.  He was just *that good*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Else had he spared the leech Asclepius, skilled to bring man from the dead  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Agamemnon](http://classics.mit.edu/Aeschylus/agamemnon.html), Aeschylus&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note:  The word leech here does *not* refer to the aquatic bloodsucker, but the archaic word for doctor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Diodorus Siculus would have it, in fact, that he never returned anyone from death after all, his incredible skill as a healer to bring people back from the brink just made it *seem* that way:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  And so far did he advance along the road of fame that, to the amazement of all, he healed many sick whose lives had been despaired of, and for this reason it was believed that he had brought back to life many who had died.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Library of History](http://www.theoi.com/Text/DiodorusSiculus4D.html#20), Diodorus Siculus, 4.71&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6318" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1468" RevisionGUID="4a543e6c-b16e-4f5f-b2e4-f40197bcd6ad" CreationDate="2016-02-27T17:26:03.603" UserId="42" Comment="added 49 characters in body" Text="Ovid's account provides one explanation, as in @Yannis's answer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Others provide a number of different explanations.  For instance, one explanation has the blood of a Gorgon being used:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For he [Asclepius] had received from Athena the blood that flowed from the veins of the Gorgon, and while he used the blood that flowed from the veins on the left side for the bane of mankind, he used the blood that flowed from the right side for salvation, and by that means he raised the dead.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Biblioteca](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus3.html#10), Pseudo-Appolodorus, 3.10.3&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyginus relates a story that a particular herb was used to perform the feat, and seems to be related to the story Ovid tells in Fasti:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Later, it is said, another snake came there, bringing an herb in its mouth, and placed it on its head. When it had done this, both fled from the place. Where upon Aesculapius, using the same herb, brought Glaucus, too, back to life.   &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Astronomica](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusAstronomica.html#14), Pseudo-Hyginus, 2.14&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarly, Cretan herbs are credited by Propertius:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Asclepius, the Epidaurian god, returned Androgeon to his father’s hearth, by means of Cretan herbs  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Elegies](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/PropertiusBkTwo.htm#anchor_Toc201112249), Propertius, 2.1&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Many, though, would simply chalk it up to his skill as a doctor, and leave it at that.  He was just *that good*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Else had he spared the leech Asclepius, skilled to bring man from the dead  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Agamemnon](http://classics.mit.edu/Aeschylus/agamemnon.html), Aeschylus&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note:  The word leech here does *not* refer to the aquatic bloodsucker, but the archaic word for doctor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Diodorus Siculus would have it, in fact, that he never returned anyone from death after all, his incredible skill as a healer to bring people back from the brink just made it *seem* that way:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  And so far did he advance along the road of fame that, to the amazement of all, he healed many sick whose lives had been despaired of, and for this reason it was believed that he had brought back to life many who had died.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Library of History](http://www.theoi.com/Text/DiodorusSiculus4D.html#20), Diodorus Siculus, 4.71&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6319" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1467" RevisionGUID="cd3ed9a2-b2b3-4313-80ca-9cbcaca2212f" CreationDate="2016-02-27T18:23:43.857" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 50 characters in body" Text="Ovid describes the process of bringing Hippolytus back to life, in Book 6 of Fasti:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hippolytus fell from the car, and, his limbs entangled by the reins, his mangled body was whirled along, till he gave up the ghost, much to Diana’s rage. “There is no need for grief,” said the son of Coronis, “for I will restore the pious youth to life all unscathed, and to my leech-craft gloomy fate shall yield.” Straightway he drew from an ivory casket simples that before had stood Glaucus’ ghost in good stead, what time the seer went down to pluck the herbs he had remarked, and the snake was succoured by a snake. Thrice he touched the youth’s breast, thrice he spoke healing words; then Hippolytus lifted his head, low laid upon the ground. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All other sources of the story I know of don't mention any details of the resurrection process." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6322" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="946" RevisionGUID="6cdc3fc6-b55a-4e40-801d-ff784a6a220d" CreationDate="2016-02-28T22:05:44.590" UserId="461" Comment="added 40 characters in body" Text="It's not about fruits vs animals. If Abel worked the soil, his offering would have been favored. The key is that Abel gave the best of him - the firstborn. Cain did not.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Say, you are a father and you have two children. You love them both and know too well. You've seen them grow. One gives you the best of his. You will surely know that it's his best, because you've seen them so much, you know what they consider precious and what they don't like. Another gives you something he doesn't like. It's still okay because you love him, but if he pretends like it's his best, you won't be pleased, not because you don't love him, but because he's lying. The Cain and Abel case is similar to this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Offering and the one who gives offering are not separated. If the offerer is defiled, the offering is defiled too. If the offerer is sanctified, the offering is too. Everything of you have impacts on the offering.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On Leviticus, God instructs how you make various offerings on various situation: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When you offer fine flours as a gift to God (Lev 2): It must be 'fine' flours and it's not easy to grind fine flours especially in the old times. He also has to pour oil on it. And again, it's not easy to extract oil in the old times. If the offerer is with a thankful heart, he will do it with a joy and it won't be a chore to him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And sin offering via animal sacrifices (Lev 4): the sacrificer puts his hands on the animal, and kills the animal by himself. It signifies that even though he should be dead because of his sin, but the animal is killed on behalf of him and his sin. He repents while doing so and it's accepted. If not, it's not an offering but a slaughter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These knowledge are expressed throughout the whole Bible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, the New Testament mentions Abel. Heb 11:4 says, 'By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice.'&#xD;&#xA;And there are all kinds of faith in the same chapter: faith on God's very existence, his goodness, his joy, his love, his righteousness, his faithfulness, his vision, and his power.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It may look fuzzy, but it's really about having a personal relationship with God. God is not an object. If you have a healthy relationship with Father or Mother, how you are going to express your thankfulness to them? How about when you feel sorry? How about to your Husband or Wife? With God, you are having a relationship with the original one. God is our original as he created man in his image.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I recently became a father by myself, and now I understand this matter better. I thank God for all the blessing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;May god bless all of you, especially in need. Amen." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6323" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1469" RevisionGUID="a118ea61-f4f2-45a5-a99f-613176fd36ba" CreationDate="2016-02-29T23:23:40.913" UserId="967" Text="On the island of Delos, Leto had twins, Apollo and Artemis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But usually, twins have a time in between before they are born. Not sure if this is the same in mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So which was older?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6324" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1469" RevisionGUID="a118ea61-f4f2-45a5-a99f-613176fd36ba" CreationDate="2016-02-29T23:23:40.913" UserId="967" Text="Which one was older, Artemis or Apollo?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6325" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1469" RevisionGUID="a118ea61-f4f2-45a5-a99f-613176fd36ba" CreationDate="2016-02-29T23:23:40.913" UserId="967" Text="|greek|apollo|artemis|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6326" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1470" RevisionGUID="db1b3721-de29-4d37-99c0-69e9c837bf93" CreationDate="2016-03-01T00:14:46.527" UserId="183" Text="Most accounts that make the distinction agree that it was Artemis who was born first.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From *Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 1. 21*:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; She [Leto] finally reached Delos and gave birth to Artemis, who thereupon helped her deliver Apollon. Artemis became a practised huntress and remained a virgin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From *Callimachus, Hymn 3 to Artemis 22*:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Even in the hour when I [Artemis] was born the Moirai (Fates) ordained that I should be their helper [women in childbirth], forasmuch as my mother suffered no pain either when she gave me birth or when she carried me win her womb, but without travail put me from her body.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Both quotes from [Theoi](http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/ArtemisMyths.html#Birth).&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that some accounts imply that there was a separation between the birth of the twins (see e.g. the references in [*Woman's Power, Man's Game: Essays on Classical Antiquity in Honor of Joy K. King*](https://books.google.com/books?id=adakNcD3Lb0C&amp;pg=PA98&amp;lpg=PA98&amp;dq=who+was+born+first+apollo+or+artemis&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=U1nAKyxhFL&amp;sig=QnJvU6-dKgQC4hROklL4lPm5FNc&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjI4YHNmZ7LAhVFnoMKHV9qAB04ChDoAQheMAk#v=onepage&amp;q=who%20was%20born%20first%20apollo%20or%20artemis&amp;f=false)), but this is not explicitly stated anywhere, as far as I know." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6327" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="110" RevisionGUID="0639b843-f9a9-466e-858b-a4b2a8ea1ced" CreationDate="2016-03-01T00:15:11.013" UserId="967" Comment="arrows added" Text="It seems that there are a great many similarities between Roman and Greek Mythology. In fact, many people consider them synonymous and only really differ in the names. For example:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Greek ⇄ Roman&#xD;&#xA;* Zeus ⇄ Jupiter &#xD;&#xA;* Poseidon ⇄ Neptune&#xD;&#xA;* Hades ⇄ Pluto&#xD;&#xA;* Hermes ⇄ Mercury&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And many others.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My impression is that they are nearly identical, so I want to know when, why and how did the Roman people adopt the Greek Mythos? Did they bring it with them? Is there evidence that they believed something else first that evolved into a Greek-like mythos?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If this belief is false, please point out where the Roman mythology differs from the Greek and why that is significant enough to say they are different religions." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6328" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="110" RevisionGUID="0639b843-f9a9-466e-858b-a4b2a8ea1ced" CreationDate="2016-03-01T00:15:11.013" UserId="967" Comment="arrows added" Text="|greek|comparative|roman|history|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6329" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="110" RevisionGUID="0639b843-f9a9-466e-858b-a4b2a8ea1ced" CreationDate="2016-03-01T00:15:11.013" Comment="Proposed by 967 approved by 398, 183 edit id of 305" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6330" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1471" RevisionGUID="7e8927c3-81e5-492d-adfd-536cb6447c64" CreationDate="2016-03-01T20:31:54.163" UserId="1115" Text="In most all references to the Lernaean Hydra, it says that the hydra has venomous *breath* and blood. **Do we know how Hercules avoided breathing in the poisonous fumes?** We know that the poison was potent enough to kill him, as that is how he eventually dies. Is there some information in the story that tell us how he deals with this? Or is it just not included in the myths?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6331" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1471" RevisionGUID="7e8927c3-81e5-492d-adfd-536cb6447c64" CreationDate="2016-03-01T20:31:54.163" UserId="1115" Text="Do we know how Hercules avoided the Hydra's venomous breath?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6332" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1471" RevisionGUID="7e8927c3-81e5-492d-adfd-536cb6447c64" CreationDate="2016-03-01T20:31:54.163" UserId="1115" Text="|greek|dragons|hercules|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6333" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1472" RevisionGUID="44e0e27c-10ba-4adc-ad48-751d4d2ab61b" CreationDate="2016-03-01T21:42:31.027" UserId="1274" Text="Those humans are possibly raised to serve fairy folk. Human females are said to be more efficient for reproduction purposes. Males are kept to serve the fairy folk." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6334" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1417" RevisionGUID="b612e24a-04bd-4598-a5dd-025cca29e9c1" CreationDate="2016-03-01T22:19:50.423" UserId="1193" Comment="added 91 characters in body" Text="No matter the background/story/world vampires drink blood &lt;s&gt;and sparkle&lt;/s&gt;, because this sort of diet is necessary for their existence (although in some versions they can suppress the hunger).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Werewolves are human (or human looking creatures) that can turn into wolf or half-wolf, half human hybrid and they have slight allergy towards silver. While they don't NEED to eat humans, they usually attack them in a bouts of rage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ghosts are dead people that came back because they have something to settle - be it malevolent haunting or protection of some place/person.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And then we have fairies - sidhe, elves (not the Tolkien type), fairy folk etc, who have bad habit of replacing human babies with their own for whatever reason, creating changelings (which is &quot;children that have been changed, replaced&quot;). Such changeling grows among humans and later discovers his true calling.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But what happens with the kidnapped human children? Is there some sort of consesus what actually fairies do with them? I'm assuming its nothing good, but besides brief note in the Wikipedia saying that &quot;In Scottish folklore, the children might be replacements for fairy children in the tithe to Hell&quot; there is very little information about possible fate of such kids.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;EDIT: While I'm interested in all possible cultures, I'd focus on the Irish and UK one." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6335" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1473" RevisionGUID="75c2d9bb-0372-46cd-9d15-51b8b0a48d94" CreationDate="2016-03-01T22:43:56.493" UserId="967" Text="## No. &#xD;&#xA;As in, it's never mentioned.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [Library][1], it says&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;As a second labour he ordered him to kill the Lernaean hydra. That creature, bred in the swamp of Lerna, used to go forth into the plain and ravage both the cattle and the country. Now the hydra had a huge body, with nine heads, eight mortal, but the middle one immortal. So mounting a chariot driven by Iolaus, he came to Lerna, and having halted his horses, he discovered the hydra on a hill beside the springs of the Amymone, where was its den. By pelting it with fiery shafts he forced it to come out, and in the act of doing so he seized and held it fast. But the hydra wound itself about one of his feet and clung to him. Nor could he effect anything by smashing its heads with his club, for as fast as one head was smashed there grew up two. A huge crab also came to the help of the hydra by biting his foot. So he killed it, and in his turn called for help on Iolaus who, by setting fire to a piece of the neighboring wood and burning the roots of the heads with the brands, prevented them from sprouting. Having thus got the better of the sprouting heads, he chopped off the immortal head, and buried it, and put a heavy rock on it, beside the road that leads through Lerna to Elaeus. But the body of the hydra he slit up and dipped his arrows in the gall. However, Eurystheus said that this labour should not be reckoned among the ten because he had not got the better of the hydra by himself, but with the help of Iolaus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It only mentions that he dipped his arrows in the gall. Maybe he had done it so quickly, it didn't even have a chance to breathe. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As the library being our main source for Heracles, I would say all of the others saying the same.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0548.tlg001.perseus-eng1:2.5.2" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6336" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1471" RevisionGUID="77fe2df0-c909-4e55-9db1-4c59f4ff8efa" CreationDate="2016-03-01T22:50:23.200" UserId="967" Comment="quote is needed" Text="In most all references to the Lernaean Hydra, it says that the hydra has venomous *breath* and blood.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Pseudo-Hyginus, Fabulae 30 :&#xD;&#xA;&quot;He [Herakles] killed at the spring of Lerna the nine headed Lernaean Hydra, offspring of Typhon. This monster was so poisonous that she killed men with her breath, and if anyone passed by when she was sleeping, he breathed her tracks and died in greatest torment. Under Minerva’s [Athene’s] instructions he killed her, disembowelled her, and dipped his arrows in her gall; and so whatever later he hit with his arrows did not escape death, and later he himself perished in Phrygia from the same cause.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; **Do we know how Hercules avoided breathing in the poisonous fumes?** We know that the poison was potent enough to kill him, as that is how he eventually dies. Is there some information in the story that tell us how he deals with this? Or is it just not included in the myths?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6337" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1471" RevisionGUID="77fe2df0-c909-4e55-9db1-4c59f4ff8efa" CreationDate="2016-03-01T22:50:23.200" Comment="Proposed by 967 approved by 1115 edit id of 307" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6342" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1473" RevisionGUID="a8e29f32-df78-4a50-9345-edfeffb612d6" CreationDate="2016-03-02T10:11:05.700" UserId="57" Comment="added 15 characters in body" Text="## No. &#xD;&#xA;As in, it's never mentioned.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [Apollodorus' Library][1], it says&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;As a second labour he ordered him to kill the Lernaean hydra. That creature, bred in the swamp of Lerna, used to go forth into the plain and ravage both the cattle and the country. Now the hydra had a huge body, with nine heads, eight mortal, but the middle one immortal. So mounting a chariot driven by Iolaus, he came to Lerna, and having halted his horses, he discovered the hydra on a hill beside the springs of the Amymone, where was its den. By pelting it with fiery shafts he forced it to come out, and in the act of doing so he seized and held it fast. But the hydra wound itself about one of his feet and clung to him. Nor could he effect anything by smashing its heads with his club, for as fast as one head was smashed there grew up two. A huge crab also came to the help of the hydra by biting his foot. So he killed it, and in his turn called for help on Iolaus who, by setting fire to a piece of the neighboring wood and burning the roots of the heads with the brands, prevented them from sprouting. Having thus got the better of the sprouting heads, he chopped off the immortal head, and buried it, and put a heavy rock on it, beside the road that leads through Lerna to Elaeus. But the body of the hydra he slit up and dipped his arrows in the gall. However, Eurystheus said that this labour should not be reckoned among the ten because he had not got the better of the hydra by himself, but with the help of Iolaus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It only mentions that he dipped his arrows in the gall. Maybe he had done it so quickly, it didn't even have a chance to breathe. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As Apollodorus' Library is our main source for Heracles, I would say all of the others saying the same.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0548.tlg001.perseus-eng1:2.5.2" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6344" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1474" RevisionGUID="1258daee-efeb-4c37-9290-6fbbf638b12f" CreationDate="2016-03-02T15:02:42.357" UserId="1275" Text="I'd like to find the primary sources (if any) for a Persian mythical land called Shadu-kam. It's supposed to be the realm of the Peris, a kind of fairyland, but I can't seem to find much about it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I discovered the name in Umberto Eco's *The Book of Legendary Lands*, where it's described very briefly:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...Persian romances often mention the blissful land of Shadu-kam.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I started digging, and I found a bit more detail in Thomas Keightley's [The Fairy Mythology, Volume 1][1], published in 1828. I have no idea if Keightley is trustworthy, but he writes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jinnestân is the common appellation of the whole of this ideal region.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Its respective empires were divided into many kingdoms, containing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; numerous provinces and cities. **Thus in the Peri-realms we meet with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the luxuriant province of Shad-u-kâm (Pleasure and Delight)**, with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; its magnificent capital Juherabâd (Jewel-city), whose two kings&#xD;&#xA;&gt; solicited the aid of Cahermân against the Deevs, and also the stately&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Amberabâd (Amber-city), and others equally splendid. The metropolis of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Deev-empire is named Ahermanabâd (Aherman's city); and imagination&#xD;&#xA;&gt; has lavished its stores in the description of the enchanted castle,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; palace, and gallery of the Deev monarch, Arzshenk.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's an old book, so transliterations don't always match their modern versions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding the hero Cahermân mentioned above, he later adds:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Cahermân Nâmeh is a romance in Turkish. Cahermân was the father of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sâm, the grandfather of the celebrated Roostem.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This would seem to make Cahermân match the [Nariman][2] of the Shahnameh. But I haven't been able to find anything about Shadu-kam in the Shahnameh, nor can I find any information anywhere on this Cahermân Nâmeh romance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've found other books that mention Shadu-kam, but most seem like they're just repeating Keightley. The Keightley book might even be Eco's source, but it's hard to tell.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any ideas? Thanks!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/41006/41006-h/41006-h.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nariman_(father_of_S%C4%81m)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6345" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1474" RevisionGUID="1258daee-efeb-4c37-9290-6fbbf638b12f" CreationDate="2016-03-02T15:02:42.357" UserId="1275" Text="Primary sources for Persian land of Shadu-kam?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6346" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1474" RevisionGUID="1258daee-efeb-4c37-9290-6fbbf638b12f" CreationDate="2016-03-02T15:02:42.357" UserId="1275" Text="|persian|shahnameh|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6347" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1475" RevisionGUID="dfd13dd4-2efc-40b3-8005-bdfd21268d63" CreationDate="2016-03-02T15:27:38.010" UserDisplayName="user1276" Text="Why is [this][1] temple dedicated to both deities? I can't find a connection between them in either myth or theme.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/artifact?name=Eleusis,%20Temple%20of%20Artemis%20and%20Poseidon&amp;object=building" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6348" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1475" RevisionGUID="dfd13dd4-2efc-40b3-8005-bdfd21268d63" CreationDate="2016-03-02T15:27:38.010" UserDisplayName="user1276" Text="Why would an ancient temple be dedicated to both Poseidon and Artemis?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6349" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1475" RevisionGUID="dfd13dd4-2efc-40b3-8005-bdfd21268d63" CreationDate="2016-03-02T15:27:38.010" UserDisplayName="user1276" Text="|greek|olympians|poseidon|artemis|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6351" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1476" RevisionGUID="e1013f2f-78a5-4eda-abd1-f07bafb484d8" CreationDate="2016-03-03T02:30:23.930" UserId="967" Text="Why and when did Hestia, Athena, and Artemis decide to become maiden goddesses? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6352" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1476" RevisionGUID="e1013f2f-78a5-4eda-abd1-f07bafb484d8" CreationDate="2016-03-03T02:30:23.930" UserId="967" Text="Why did the maiden goddesses choose to become a maiden forever?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6353" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1476" RevisionGUID="e1013f2f-78a5-4eda-abd1-f07bafb484d8" CreationDate="2016-03-03T02:30:23.930" UserId="967" Text="|greek|maiden-goddesses|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6358" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1478" RevisionGUID="f303c61d-3177-48b9-8445-31f5e5fbb8b9" CreationDate="2016-03-03T04:45:23.897" UserId="467" Text="This question needs to be answered from the perspective of the likely intent of the author and in light of what the term Eden meant in the times before and up to the period when the story was written (in my view probably 9th-7th centuries BCE, though perhaps somewhat later).&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;We must first recognize that, in the Eden story itself, the term Eden refers to the desolate/arid geographical region within which Yahweh first created the man and put him there, and only after that planted the garden (Gen 2.8: “a garden *in* Eden”). So looking simply and specifically for the paradise garden would be (so to speak) barking up the wrong tree. There is a Western Semitic root (*ʽdn*), used for example in Ugarit, meaning lush or luxuriant on which the author may have drawn upon in deciding how to name the Garden, but this gives us nothing about the garden’s location. (If anything, it would imply Syria, which does not appear consistent with the description in Gen 2:10-14.) Looking to Mesopotamia is more fruitful.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Mesopotamia the term the term referred to a dry plain (Sumerian (*edin*) and Akkadian (*edinu*), including between rivers; the more attested term in Akkadian was *seru,* which was a translation of the same, pronounced as *seru* but written with almost the same Cuneiform sign as the Sumerian. Akkadian was the *lingua franca* of the region, but scholars debate whether a Judahite educated scribe such as the author of the Eden story would have been familiar with this word. In any event, this information, together with that provided by the author in Genesis 2.10-14, suggests a location generally within Mesopotamia, perhaps between the Tigris and Euphrates. Frankly, having reviewed the various attempts to be more precise, they all have serious problems and no weighty following among scholars. So I don’t think we can be more precise than what I’ve described here, and more significantly I doubt that the author intended any greater precision; probably he was deliberately not specific. Thus, he said only that Eden was “in the East” (Gen 2:8) and that the 4 rivers flowed from there. But we don’t know where “there” is, i.e., the location from which they are said to flow. Identifying their names only brings us to somewhere in Mesopotamia, most of the territory of which is taken up by these river basins, which gets us no further that what I’ve mentioned above.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think the description of the 4 rivers flowing from an unspecified point on Mesopotamian territory needs to be read mythologically, rather than as an attempt to be geographically specific. As mentioned, creation on earth began in a desolate Eden, signifying a  kind of primordial chaos (only desert rather than waters) onto which the order of creation was imposed. By having Yahweh form the first human and the first plants (i.e., the Garden) there, he made the Garden the center of creation and the original center of the earth, which makes it a holy place, which is why Yahweh had his presence there. It is a Center in the sense meant by Mircea Eliade and Joseph Campbell (Eliade and Sullivan; Eliade; Campbell), where primordial chaos was put into the order of creation, which is why it is sacred. The 4 rivers flowing from that spot symbolize the Garden as that Center, and also helps explain how the rest of the earth (originally barren  outside of the Garden) became fertile and full of life. The imagery of the Center is further enhanced by the 2 sacred trees being there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, I should mention that in choosing the term Eden the author may have been making a secondary allusion to Beth Eden mentioned elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible (Amos 1:5; 2 Kings 19:12; Isaiah 37:2). This was an Aramaic kingdom on the banks of the upper Euphrates in Syria. Its name (*bit-adini*) means House of Eden, with *adini* being the family name of the ruling dynasty (e.g., as in House of David). By the time the Eden story was written, Assyria had taken it over, and was using it as a launching base from which to invade Palestine. Thus, the author may have been using Eden, as an ideal place next to or within a hostile land, to allude to the Assyrian military, cultural, and pagan religious threat coming from Assyria/Syria at the time. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is only the tip of the iceberg. Further details are contained in my book about the mythology behind the Garden of Eden story, below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Joseph Campbell. *The Mythic Image.* New York: MJF Books, 1974, pp. 184-207.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mircea Eliade. *The Myth of the Eternal Return.* Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1991, pp. 12-17.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mircea Eliade and Lawrence Sullivan. “Center of the World,” *Encyclopedia of Religion,* vol. 3, pp. 166-71.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Arthur George and Elena George. *The Mythology of Eden.* Lanham, Maryland: Hamilton Books, 2014, p&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6359" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1478" RevisionGUID="39439beb-bbc4-4e06-9668-3d5cd4fe800d" CreationDate="2016-03-03T04:52:27.060" UserId="467" Comment="added 177 characters in body" Text="This question needs to be answered from the perspective of the likely intent of the author and in light of what the term Eden meant in the times before and up to the period when the story was written (in my view probably 9th-7th centuries BCE, though perhaps somewhat later).&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;We must first recognize that, in the Eden story itself, the term Eden refers to the desolate/arid geographical region within which Yahweh first created the man and put him there, and only after that planted the garden (Gen 2.8: “a garden *in* Eden”). So looking simply and specifically for the paradise garden would be (so to speak) barking up the wrong tree. There is a Western Semitic root (*ʽdn*), used for example in Ugarit, meaning lush or luxuriant on which the author may have drawn upon in deciding how to name the Garden, but this gives us nothing about the garden’s location. (If anything, it would imply Syria, which does not appear consistent with the description in Gen 2:10-14.) Looking to Mesopotamia is more fruitful.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Mesopotamia the term the term referred to a dry plain (Sumerian (*edin*) and Akkadian (*edinu*), including between rivers; the more attested term in Akkadian was *seru,* which was a translation of the same, pronounced as *seru* but written with almost the same Cuneiform sign as the Sumerian. Akkadian was the *lingua franca* of the region, but scholars debate whether a Judahite educated scribe such as the author of the Eden story would have been familiar with this word. In any event, this information, together with that provided by the author in Genesis 2.10-14, suggests a location generally within Mesopotamia, perhaps between the Tigris and Euphrates. Frankly, having reviewed the various attempts to be more precise, they all have serious problems and no weighty following among scholars. So I don’t think we can be more precise than what I’ve described here, and more significantly I doubt that the author intended any greater precision; probably he was deliberately not specific. Thus, he said only that Eden was “in the East” (Gen 2:8) and that the 4 rivers flowed from there. But we don’t know where “there” is, i.e., the location from which they are said to flow. Identifying their names only brings us to somewhere in Mesopotamia, most of the territory of which is taken up by these river basins, which gets us no further that what I’ve mentioned above.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think the description of the 4 rivers flowing from an unspecified point on Mesopotamian territory needs to be read mythologically, rather than as an attempt to be geographically specific. As mentioned, creation on earth began in a desolate Eden, signifying a  kind of primordial chaos (only desert rather than waters) onto which the order of creation was imposed. By having Yahweh form the first human and the first plants (i.e., the Garden) there, he made the Garden the center of creation and the original center of the earth, which makes it a holy place, which is why Yahweh had his presence there. It is a Center in the sense meant by Mircea Eliade and Joseph Campbell (Eliade and Sullivan; Eliade; Campbell), where primordial chaos was put into the order of creation, which is why it is sacred. The 4 rivers flowing from that spot symbolize the Garden as that Center, and also helps explain how the rest of the earth (originally barren  outside of the Garden) became fertile and full of life. The imagery of the Center is further enhanced by the 2 sacred trees being there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, I should mention that in choosing the term Eden the author may have been making a secondary allusion to Beth Eden mentioned elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible (Amos 1:5; 2 Kings 19:12; Isaiah 37:2). This was an Aramaic kingdom on the banks of the upper Euphrates in Syria. Its name (*bit-adini*) means House of Eden, with *adini* being the family name of the ruling dynasty (e.g., as in House of David). By the time the Eden story was written, Assyria had taken it over, and was using it as a launching base from which to invade Palestine. Thus, the author may have been using Eden, as an ideal place next to or within a hostile land, to allude to the Assyrian military, cultural, and pagan religious threat coming from Assyria/Syria at the time. From this perspective, Israel could be viewed as the ideal Center, and indeed Jerusalem itself, and specifically its Temple, was thought of as the Center of the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is only the tip of the iceberg. Further details are contained in my book about the mythology behind the Garden of Eden story, below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Joseph Campbell. *The Mythic Image.* New York: MJF Books, 1974, pp. 184-207.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mircea Eliade. *The Myth of the Eternal Return.* Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1991, pp. 12-17.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mircea Eliade and Lawrence Sullivan. “Center of the World,” *Encyclopedia of Religion,* vol. 3, pp. 166-71.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Arthur George and Elena George. *The Mythology of Eden.* Lanham, Maryland: Hamilton Books, 2014, pp. 100-24.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6360" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1478" RevisionGUID="a657069b-f0b4-49c2-8667-1a09e84176eb" CreationDate="2016-03-03T06:21:46.127" UserId="467" Comment="added 11 characters in body" Text="This question needs to be answered from the perspective of the likely intent of the author and in light of what the term Eden meant in the times before and up to the period when the story was written (in my view probably 9th-7th centuries BCE, though perhaps somewhat later).&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;We must first recognize that, in the Eden story itself, the term Eden refers to the desolate/arid geographical region within which Yahweh first created the man and put him there, and only after that planted the garden (Gen 2.8: “a garden *in* Eden”). So looking simply and specifically for the paradise garden would be (so to speak) barking up the wrong tree. There is a Western Semitic root (*ʽdn*), used for example in Ugarit, meaning lush or luxuriant on which the author may have drawn upon in deciding how to name the Garden, but this gives us nothing about the garden’s location. (If anything, it would imply Syria, which does not appear consistent with the description in Gen 2:10-14.) Looking to Mesopotamia is more fruitful.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Mesopotamia the term the term referred to a dry plain (Sumerian (*edin*) and Akkadian (*edinu*), including between rivers; the more attested term in Akkadian was *seru,* which was a translation of the same, pronounced as *seru* but written with almost the same Cuneiform sign as the Sumerian. Akkadian was the *lingua franca* of the region, but scholars debate whether a Judahite educated scribe such as the author of the Eden story would have been familiar with this word. In any event, this information, together with that provided by the author in Genesis 2.10-14, suggests a location generally within Mesopotamia, perhaps between the Tigris and Euphrates. Frankly, having reviewed the various attempts to be more precise, they all have serious problems and no weighty following among scholars. So I don’t think we can be more precise than what I’ve described here, and more significantly I doubt that the author intended any greater precision; probably he was deliberately not specific. Thus, he said only that Eden was “in the East” (Gen 2:8) and that the 4 rivers flowed from there. But we don’t know where “there” is, i.e., the location from which they are said to flow. Identifying their names only brings us to somewhere in Mesopotamia, most of the territory of which is taken up by these river basins, which gets us no further that what I’ve mentioned above.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think the description of the 4 rivers flowing from an unspecified point on Mesopotamian territory needs to be read mythologically, rather than as an attempt to be geographically specific. As mentioned, creation on earth began in a desolate Eden, signifying a  kind of primordial chaos (only desert rather than waters) onto which the order of creation was imposed. By having Yahweh form the first human and the first plants (i.e., the Garden) there, he made the Garden the center of creation and the original center of the earth, which makes it a holy place, which is why Yahweh had his presence there. It is a Center in the sense meant by Mircea Eliade and Joseph Campbell (Eliade and Sullivan; Eliade; Campbell), where primordial chaos was put into the order of creation, which is why it is sacred. The 4 rivers flowing from that spot symbolize the Garden as that Center, and also helps explain how the rest of the earth (originally barren  outside of the Garden) became fertile and full of life. The imagery of the Center is further enhanced by the 2 sacred trees being there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, I should mention that in choosing the term Eden the author may have been making a secondary allusion to Beth Eden mentioned elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible (Amos 1:5; 2 Kings 19:12; Isaiah 37:2). This was an Aramaic kingdom on the banks of the upper Euphrates in Syria. Its name in Aramaic (*bit-adini*) means House of Eden, with *adini* being the family name of the ruling dynasty (e.g., as in House of David). By the time the Eden story was written, Assyria had taken it over, and was using it as a launching base from which to invade Palestine. Thus, the author may have been using Eden, as an ideal place next to or within a hostile land, to allude to the Assyrian military, cultural, and pagan religious threat coming from Assyria/Syria at the time. From this perspective, Israel could be viewed as the ideal Center, and indeed Jerusalem itself, and specifically its Temple, was thought of as the Center of the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is only the tip of the iceberg. Further details are contained in my book about the mythology behind the Garden of Eden story, below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Joseph Campbell. *The Mythic Image.* New York: MJF Books, 1974, pp. 184-207.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mircea Eliade. *The Myth of the Eternal Return.* Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1991, pp. 12-17.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mircea Eliade and Lawrence Sullivan. “Center of the World,” *Encyclopedia of Religion,* vol. 3, pp. 166-71.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Arthur George and Elena George. *The Mythology of Eden.* Lanham, Maryland: Hamilton Books, 2014, pp. 100-24.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6361" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1478" RevisionGUID="649a2199-9111-4d08-b697-effb315503f7" CreationDate="2016-03-03T06:27:19.000" UserId="467" Comment="added 11 characters in body" Text="This question needs to be answered from the perspective of the likely intent of the author and in light of what the term Eden meant in the times before and up to the period when the story was written (in my view probably 9th-7th centuries BCE, though perhaps somewhat later).&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;We must first recognize that, in the Eden story itself, the term Eden refers to the desolate/arid geographical region within which Yahweh first created the man and put him there, and only after that planted the garden (Gen 2.8: “a garden *in* Eden”). So looking simply and specifically for the paradise garden would be (so to speak) barking up the wrong tree. There is a Western Semitic root (*ʽdn*), used for example in Ugarit, meaning lush or luxuriant on which the author may have drawn upon in deciding how to name the Garden, but this gives us nothing about the garden’s location. (If anything, it would imply Syria, which does not appear consistent with the description in Gen 2:10-14.) Looking to Mesopotamia is more fruitful.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Mesopotamia the term the term referred to a dry plain (Sumerian (*edin*) and Akkadian (*edinu*), including between rivers; the more attested term in Akkadian was *seru,* which was a translation of the same, pronounced as *seru* but written with almost the same Cuneiform sign as the Sumerian. Akkadian was the *lingua franca* of the region, but scholars debate whether an educated scribe in Judah such as the author of the Eden story would have been familiar with this word. In any event, this information, together with that provided by the author in Genesis 2.10-14, suggests a location generally within Mesopotamia, perhaps between the Tigris and Euphrates. Frankly, having reviewed the various attempts to be more precise, they all have serious problems and no weighty following among scholars. So I don’t think we can be more precise than what I’ve described here, and more significantly I doubt that the author intended any greater precision; probably he was deliberately not specific. Thus, he said only that Eden was “in the East” (Gen 2:8) and that the 4 rivers flowed from there. But we don’t know where “there” is, i.e., the location from which they are said to flow. Identifying their names only brings us to somewhere in Mesopotamia, most of the territory of which is taken up by these river basins, which gets us no further that what I’ve mentioned above.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think the description of the 4 rivers flowing from an unspecified point on Mesopotamian territory needs to be read mythologically, rather than as an attempt to be geographically specific. As mentioned, creation on earth began in a desolate Eden, signifying a  kind of primordial chaos (only desert rather than waters) onto which the order of creation was imposed. By having Yahweh form the first human and the first plants (i.e., the Garden) there, he made the Garden the center of creation and the original center of the earth, which makes it a holy place, which is why Yahweh had his presence there. It is a Center in the sense meant by Mircea Eliade and Joseph Campbell (Eliade and Sullivan; Eliade; Campbell), where primordial chaos was put into the order of creation, which is why it is sacred. The 4 rivers flowing from that spot symbolize the Garden as that Center, and also helps explain how the rest of the earth (originally barren  outside of the Garden) became fertile and full of life. The imagery of the Center is further enhanced by the 2 sacred trees being there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, I should mention that in choosing the term Eden the author may have been making a secondary allusion to Beth Eden mentioned elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible (Amos 1:5; 2 Kings 19:12; Isaiah 37:2). This was an Aramaic kingdom on the banks of the upper Euphrates in Syria. Its name in Aramaic (*bit-adini*) means &quot;House of Eden,&quot; with *adini* being the family name of the ruling dynasty (cf. &quot;House of David&quot;). By the time the Eden story was written, Assyria had taken over Beth Eden, and was using it as a launching base from which to invade Syria-Palestine. Thus, the author may have been using Eden, on the one hand to allude to the Assyrian military, cultural, and pagan religious threat coming from Assyria/Syria at the time, but on the other hand an ideal place (i.e., Israel) arising from within and being threatened by this hostile environment. From this perspective, Israel was indeed viewed as the ideal Center of the world, and indeed Jerusalem itself, and specifically its Temple.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is only the tip of the iceberg. Further details are contained in my book about the mythology behind the Garden of Eden story, below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Joseph Campbell. *The Mythic Image.* New York: MJF Books, 1974, pp. 184-207.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mircea Eliade. *The Myth of the Eternal Return.* Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1991, pp. 12-17.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mircea Eliade and Lawrence Sullivan. “Center of the World,” *Encyclopedia of Religion,* vol. 3, pp. 166-71.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Arthur George and Elena George. *The Mythology of Eden.* Lanham, Maryland: Hamilton Books, 2014, pp. 100-24." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6362" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1478" RevisionGUID="d12c081c-9bfb-48ad-94c2-6c6b99bd8475" CreationDate="2016-03-03T07:38:15.173" UserId="467" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body" Text="This question needs to be answered from the perspective of the likely intent of the author and in light of what the term Eden meant in the times before and up to the period when the story was written (in my view probably 9th-7th centuries BCE, though perhaps somewhat later).&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;We must first recognize that, in the Eden story itself, the term Eden refers to the desolate/arid geographical region within which Yahweh first created the man and put him there, and only after that planted the garden (Gen 2.8: “a garden *in* Eden”). So looking simply and specifically for the paradise garden would be (so to speak) barking up the wrong tree. There is a Western Semitic root (*ʽdn*), used for example in Ugarit, meaning lush or luxuriant upon which the author may have drawn in deciding how to name the Garden, but this gives us nothing about the garden’s location. (If anything, it would imply Syria, which does not appear consistent with the description in Gen 2:10-14.) Looking to Mesopotamia is more fruitful.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Mesopotamia the term the term referred to a dry plain (Sumerian (*edin*) and Akkadian (*edinu*), including between rivers; the more attested term in Akkadian was *seru,* which was a translation of the same, pronounced as *seru* but written with almost the same Cuneiform sign as the Sumerian. Akkadian was the *lingua franca* of the region, but scholars debate whether an educated scribe in Judah such as the author of the Eden story would have been familiar with this word. In any event, this information, together with that provided by the author in Genesis 2.10-14, suggests a location generally within Mesopotamia, perhaps between the Tigris and Euphrates. Frankly, having reviewed the various attempts to be more precise, they all have serious problems and no weighty following among scholars. So I don’t think we can be more precise than what I’ve described here, and more significantly I doubt that the author intended any greater precision; probably he was deliberately not specific. Thus, he said only that Eden was “in the East” (Gen 2:8) and that the 4 rivers flowed from there. But we don’t know where “there” is, i.e., the location from which they are said to flow. Identifying their names only brings us to somewhere in Mesopotamia, most of the territory of which is taken up by these river basins, which gets us no further that what I’ve mentioned above.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think the description of the 4 rivers flowing from an unspecified point on Mesopotamian territory needs to be read mythologically, rather than as an attempt to be geographically specific. As mentioned, creation on earth began in a desolate Eden, signifying a  kind of primordial chaos (only desert rather than waters) onto which the order of creation was imposed. By having Yahweh form the first human and the first plants (i.e., the Garden) there, he made the Garden the center of creation and the original center of the earth, which makes it a holy place, which is why Yahweh had his presence there. It is a Center in the sense meant by Mircea Eliade and Joseph Campbell (Eliade and Sullivan; Eliade; Campbell), where primordial chaos was transformed into the order of creation, which is why it is sacred. The 4 rivers flowing from that spot symbolize the Garden as that Center, and also helps explain how the rest of the earth (originally barren  outside of the Garden) became fertile and full of life. The imagery of the Center is further enhanced by the 2 sacred trees being there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, I should mention that in choosing the term Eden the author may have been making a secondary allusion to Beth Eden mentioned elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible (Amos 1:5; 2 Kings 19:12; Isaiah 37:2). This was an Aramaic kingdom on the banks of the upper Euphrates in Syria (so no dry steppe here). Its name in Aramaic (*bit-adini*) means &quot;House of Eden,&quot; with *adini* being the family name of the ruling dynasty (cf. &quot;House of David&quot;). By the time the Eden story was written, Assyria had taken over Beth Eden, and was using it as a launching base from which to invade Syria-Palestine. Thus, the author may have been using Eden, on the one hand to allude to the Assyrian military, cultural, and pagan religious threat coming from Assyria/Syria at the time, but on the other hand an ideal place (i.e., Israel) arising from within and being threatened by this hostile environment. From this perspective, Israel was indeed viewed as the ideal Center of the world, and indeed Jerusalem itself, and specifically its Temple.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is only the tip of the iceberg. Further details are contained in my book about the mythology behind the Garden of Eden story, below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Joseph Campbell. *The Mythic Image.* New York: MJF Books, 1974, pp. 184-207.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mircea Eliade. *The Myth of the Eternal Return.* Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1991, pp. 12-17.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mircea Eliade and Lawrence Sullivan. “Center of the World,” *Encyclopedia of Religion,* vol. 3, pp. 166-71.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Arthur George and Elena George. *The Mythology of Eden.* Lanham, Maryland: Hamilton Books, 2014, pp. 100-24." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6363" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1475" RevisionGUID="bd144d8a-4a4e-497f-a2cf-ccd737259031" CreationDate="2016-03-03T21:30:03.897" UserId="967" Comment="Clarifications" Text="Why is [Eleusis][1] dedicated to both deities? I can't find a connection between them in either myth or theme.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/artifact?name=Eleusis,%20Temple%20of%20Artemis%20and%20Poseidon&amp;object=building" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6364" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1475" RevisionGUID="bd144d8a-4a4e-497f-a2cf-ccd737259031" CreationDate="2016-03-03T21:30:03.897" Comment="Proposed by 967 approved by 183 edit id of 308" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6365" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1478" RevisionGUID="4c34ae4b-1682-41db-ae9f-d3c940d70b78" CreationDate="2016-03-03T21:53:58.123" UserId="467" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="This question needs to be answered from the perspective of the likely intent of the author and in light of what the term Eden meant in the times before and up to the period when the story was written (in my view probably 9th-7th centuries BCE, though perhaps somewhat later).&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;We must first recognize that, in the Eden story itself, the term Eden refers to the desolate/arid geographical region within which Yahweh first created the man and put him there, and only after that planted the garden (Gen 2.8: “a garden *in* Eden”). So looking simply and specifically for the paradise garden would be (so to speak) barking up the wrong tree. There is a Western Semitic root (*ʽdn*), used for example in Ugarit, meaning lush or luxuriant upon which the author may have drawn in deciding how to name the Garden, but this gives us nothing about the garden’s location. (If anything, it would imply Syria, which does not appear consistent with the description in Gen 2:10-14.) Looking to Mesopotamia is more fruitful.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Mesopotamia the term the term referred to a dry plain (Sumerian (*edin*) and Akkadian (*edinu*), including between rivers; the more attested term in Akkadian was *seru,* which was a translation of the same, pronounced as *seru* but written with almost the same Cuneiform sign as the Sumerian. Akkadian was the *lingua franca* of the region, but scholars debate whether an educated scribe in Judah such as the author of the Eden story would have been familiar with this word. In any event, this information, together with that provided by the author in Genesis 2.10-14, suggests a location generally within Mesopotamia, perhaps between the Tigris and Euphrates. Frankly, having reviewed the various attempts to be more precise, they all have serious problems and no weighty following among scholars. So I don’t think we can be more precise than what I’ve described here, and more significantly I doubt that the author intended any greater precision; probably he was deliberately not specific. Thus, he said only that Eden was “in the East” (Gen 2:8) and that the 4 rivers flowed from there. But we don’t know where “there” is, i.e., the location from which they are said to flow. Identifying their names only brings us to somewhere in Mesopotamia, most of the territory of which is taken up by these river basins, which gets us no further that what I’ve mentioned above.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think the description of the 4 rivers flowing from an unspecified point on Mesopotamian territory needs to be read mythologically, rather than as an attempt to be geographically specific. As mentioned, creation on earth began in a desolate Eden, signifying a  kind of primordial chaos (only desert rather than waters) onto which the order of creation was imposed. By having Yahweh form the first human and the first plants (i.e., the Garden) there, he made the Garden the center of creation and the original center of the earth, which makes it a holy place, which is why Yahweh had his presence there. It is a Center in the sense meant by Mircea Eliade and Joseph Campbell (Eliade and Sullivan; Eliade; Campbell), where primordial chaos was transformed into the order of creation, which is why it is sacred. The 4 rivers flowing from that spot symbolize the Garden as that Center, and also helps explain how the rest of the earth (originally barren  outside of the Garden) became fertile and full of life. The imagery of the Center is further enhanced by the 2 sacred trees being there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, I should mention that in choosing the term Eden the author may have been making a secondary allusion to Beth Eden mentioned elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible (Amos 1:5; 2 Kings 19:12; Isaiah 37:2). This was an Aramaic kingdom on the banks of the upper Euphrates in Syria (so no dry steppe here). Its name in Aramaic (*bit-adini*) means &quot;House of Eden,&quot; with *adini* being the family name of the ruling dynasty (cf. &quot;House of David&quot;). By the time the Eden story was written, Assyria had taken over Beth Eden, and was using it as a launching base from which to invade Syria-Palestine. Thus, the author may have been using Eden, on the one hand to allude to the Assyrian military, cultural, and pagan religious threat coming from Assyria/Syria at the time, but on the other hand an ideal place (i.e., Israel) arising from within and being threatened by this hostile environment. From this perspective, Israel was indeed viewed as the ideal Center of the world, and indeed Jerusalem itself, and specifically its Temple.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is only the tip of the iceberg. Further details are contained in my book about the mythology behind the Garden of Eden story, below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sources:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Joseph Campbell. *The Mythic Image.* New York: MJF Books, 1974, pp. 184-207.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mircea Eliade. *The Myth of the Eternal Return.* Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1991, pp. 12-17.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mircea Eliade and Lawrence Sullivan. “Center of the World,” *Encyclopedia of Religion,* vol. 3, pp. 166-71.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Arthur George and Elena George. *The Mythology of Eden.* Lanham, Maryland: Hamilton Books, 2014, pp. 100-24." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6366" PostHistoryTypeId="8" PostId="1475" RevisionGUID="c402b003-54ee-47af-af94-90afac98cc9d" CreationDate="2016-03-03T21:58:54.657" UserId="57" Comment="Rollback to [dfd13dd4-2efc-40b3-8005-bdfd21268d63]" Text="Why is [this][1] temple dedicated to both deities? I can't find a connection between them in either myth or theme.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/artifact?name=Eleusis,%20Temple%20of%20Artemis%20and%20Poseidon&amp;object=building" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6367" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1476" RevisionGUID="772be2f6-10f5-40b7-9a9a-7fcdd5a5409d" CreationDate="2016-03-03T23:34:52.340" UserId="967" Comment="deleted 8 characters in body; edited title" Text="When did Hestia, Athena, and Artemis decide to become maiden goddesses? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6368" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1476" RevisionGUID="772be2f6-10f5-40b7-9a9a-7fcdd5a5409d" CreationDate="2016-03-03T23:34:52.340" UserId="967" Comment="deleted 8 characters in body; edited title" Text="When did the maiden goddesses choose to become a maiden forever?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6369" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1479" RevisionGUID="23a1711e-de97-4334-bd84-19c57d052256" CreationDate="2016-03-03T23:40:13.827" UserId="967" Text="Well, it was a temple that just had two separate reasons to be built.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Book.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since Poseidon was involved in Athens-Elusis relationship, and Artemis was the Propylaea(1) of Eleusis, so they made one temple to honor both of them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(1) prop·y·lae·um- the entrance to the Acropolis at Athens. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=lSyY-OWFuGIC&amp;pg=PA160&amp;lpg=PA160&amp;dq=Artemis%20Propylaia%20and%20Poseidon%20Pater&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=fzmzJMFtLT&amp;sig=j6TcpjL_ceXmJ6ShRQjIoSM0ZX0&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjqxuDJz6XLAhUMRiYKHdLaBOMQ6AEIPjAH#v=onepage&amp;q=Artemis%20Propylaia%20and%20Poseidon%20Pater&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/DG5sS.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6370" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="490" RevisionGUID="ceef5252-a67e-4eda-808f-aefc93f2c7c5" CreationDate="2016-03-04T09:08:01.377" UserId="967" Comment="formatting, question" Text="This is an offshoot of a [question][1] asked about the Ba and Ka. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What were the other 3 parts of the Egyptian soul and what did they represent?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/309/in-ancient-egypt-what-did-the-ba-and-the-ka-represent?rq=1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6371" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="490" RevisionGUID="ceef5252-a67e-4eda-808f-aefc93f2c7c5" CreationDate="2016-03-04T09:08:01.377" Comment="Proposed by 967 approved by 62, 111 edit id of 310" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6372" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1480" RevisionGUID="8f7d8a9b-b427-4b68-9d32-673ea3828bd8" CreationDate="2016-03-04T18:07:37.820" UserId="1285" Text="Are there any myths or stories where someone asks an oracle (or prophet or deity) tricky questions in order to test/trick/falsify it, which results in punishment of the doubter?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Two examples, which do not match completely:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Herodotus reports that king Croesus tested several oracles for their knowledge and is later misled by the Delphic oracle regarding his war against the Persians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;   http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0126:book=1:chapter=46&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;   However, Herodotus seems not to indicate that the ambiguity of the Delphic answer is a direct consequence of Croesus' initial skepticism.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In &quot;Oedipus the King&quot; by Sophocles, king Laius' attempt to thwart a Delphic prophecy is the ultimate cause for the fulfillment of that prophecy. However, Laius is just reacting; he has never approached the oracle with a malicious or cunning intent in the first place.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The two examples I have given are from Greek mythology, but I am interested in the stories of any religion, place, and epoch." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6373" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1480" RevisionGUID="8f7d8a9b-b427-4b68-9d32-673ea3828bd8" CreationDate="2016-03-04T18:07:37.820" UserId="1285" Text="Punishment for challenging an oracle" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6374" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1480" RevisionGUID="8f7d8a9b-b427-4b68-9d32-673ea3828bd8" CreationDate="2016-03-04T18:07:37.820" UserId="1285" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6375" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1480" RevisionGUID="c9b80cb5-a0bd-46e2-87f5-075075a94e9e" CreationDate="2016-03-04T19:12:16.427" UserId="1285" Comment="edited tags; edited title" Text="Are there stories of punishment for challenging an oracle?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6376" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1480" RevisionGUID="c9b80cb5-a0bd-46e2-87f5-075075a94e9e" CreationDate="2016-03-04T19:12:16.427" UserId="1285" Comment="edited tags; edited title" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6378" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1480" RevisionGUID="55e11eb9-3dba-45f4-b2ec-95e226f204cd" CreationDate="2016-03-05T01:05:52.987" UserId="967" Comment="Link" Text="Are there any myths or stories where someone asks an oracle (or prophet or deity) tricky questions in order to test/trick/falsify it, which results in punishment of the doubter?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Two examples, which do not match completely:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Herodotus][1] reports that king Croesus tested several oracles for their knowledge and is later misled by the Delphic oracle regarding his war against the Persians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;   However, Herodotus seems not to indicate that the ambiguity of the Delphic answer is a direct consequence of Croesus' initial skepticism.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In &quot;Oedipus the King&quot; by Sophocles, king Laius' attempt to thwart a Delphic prophecy is the ultimate cause for the fulfillment of that prophecy. However, Laius is just reacting; he has never approached the oracle with a malicious or cunning intent in the first place.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The two examples I have given are from Greek mythology, but I am interested in the stories of any religion, place, and epoch.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0126:book=1:chapter=46" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6382" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1478" RevisionGUID="3e8f97f3-d1a9-4338-95a9-4c08a84c911e" CreationDate="2016-03-06T14:51:20.497" UserId="467" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="This question needs to be answered from the perspective of the likely intent of the author and in light of what the term Eden meant in the times before and up to the period when the story was written (in my view probably 9th-7th centuries BCE, though perhaps somewhat later).&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;We must first recognize that, in the Eden story itself, the term Eden refers to the desolate/arid geographical region within which Yahweh first created the man and put him there, and only after that planted the garden (Gen 2.8: “a garden *in* Eden”). So looking simply and specifically for the paradise garden would be (so to speak) barking up the wrong tree. There is a Western Semitic root (*ʽdn*), used for example in Ugarit, meaning lush or luxuriant upon which the author may have drawn in deciding how to name the Garden, but this gives us nothing about the garden’s location. (If anything, it would imply Syria, which does not appear consistent with the description in Gen 2:10-14.) Looking to Mesopotamia is more fruitful.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Mesopotamia the term the term referred to a dry plain (Sumerian (*edin*) and Akkadian (*edinu*), including between rivers; the more attested term in Akkadian was *seru,* which was a translation of the same, pronounced as *seru* but written with almost the same Cuneiform sign as the Sumerian. Akkadian was the *lingua franca* of the region, but scholars debate whether an educated scribe in Judah such as the author of the Eden story would have been familiar with this word. In any event, this information, together with that provided by the author in Genesis 2.10-14, suggests a location generally within Mesopotamia, perhaps between the Tigris and Euphrates. Frankly, having reviewed the various attempts to be more precise, they all have serious problems and no weighty following among scholars. So I don’t think we can be more precise than what I’ve described here, and more significantly I doubt that the author intended any greater precision; probably he was deliberately not specific. Thus, he said only that Eden was “in the East” and that the 4 rivers flowed out of there (Gen 2:8). But we don’t know where “there” is, i.e., the location from which they are said to flow. Identifying their names only brings us to somewhere in Mesopotamia, most of the territory of which is taken up by these river basins, which gets us no further that what I’ve mentioned above.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think the description of the 4 rivers flowing from an unspecified point on Mesopotamian territory needs to be read mythologically, rather than as an attempt to be geographically specific. As mentioned, creation on earth began in a desolate Eden, signifying a  kind of primordial chaos (only desert rather than waters) onto which the order of creation was imposed. By having Yahweh form the first human and the first plants (i.e., the Garden) there, he made the Garden the center of creation and the original center of the earth, which makes it a holy place, which is why Yahweh had his presence there. It is a Center in the sense meant by Mircea Eliade and Joseph Campbell (Eliade and Sullivan; Eliade; Campbell), where primordial chaos was transformed into the order of creation, which is why it is sacred. The 4 rivers flowing from that spot symbolize the Garden as that Center, and also helps explain how the rest of the earth (originally barren  outside of the Garden) became fertile and full of life. The imagery of the Center is further enhanced by the 2 sacred trees being there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, I should mention that in choosing the term Eden the author may have been making a secondary allusion to Beth Eden mentioned elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible (Amos 1:5; 2 Kings 19:12; Isaiah 37:2). This was an Aramaic kingdom on the banks of the upper Euphrates in Syria (so no dry steppe here). Its name in Aramaic (*bit-adini*) means &quot;House of Eden,&quot; with *adini* being the family name of the ruling dynasty (cf. &quot;House of David&quot;). By the time the Eden story was written, Assyria had taken over Beth Eden, and was using it as a launching base from which to invade Syria-Palestine. Thus, the author may have been using Eden, on the one hand to allude to the Assyrian military, cultural, and pagan religious threat coming from Assyria/Syria at the time, but on the other hand an ideal place (i.e., Israel) arising from within and being threatened by this hostile environment. From this perspective, Israel was indeed viewed as the ideal Center of the world, and indeed Jerusalem itself, and specifically its Temple.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is only the tip of the iceberg. Further details are contained in my book about the mythology behind the Garden of Eden story, below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sources:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Joseph Campbell. *The Mythic Image.* New York: MJF Books, 1974, pp. 184-207.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mircea Eliade. *The Myth of the Eternal Return.* Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1991, pp. 12-17.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mircea Eliade and Lawrence Sullivan. “Center of the World,” *Encyclopedia of Religion,* vol. 3, pp. 166-71.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Arthur George and Elena George. *The Mythology of Eden.* Lanham, Maryland: Hamilton Books, 2014, pp. 100-24." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6384" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1482" RevisionGUID="75fb0d50-9e4c-473e-9a9e-3a8a8eb7890c" CreationDate="2016-03-06T18:09:31.413" UserId="42" Text="I feel a bit like this isn't what you want, but I'm not sure how else to define the question, so I'll start with a definition of what an oracle is.  From the Oxford English Dictionary:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A priest or priestess acting as a medium through whom advice or prophecy was sought from the gods in classical antiquity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And since we want to ignore that classical antiquity bit, being that we want to look to other religions and times, biblical prophets would seem to qualify quite nicely as oracles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, the book of Exodus would be a good example of punishment meted out to people who refused to heed the words of Moses, in his role as an oracle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the King James version of the Bible (Exodus 10:3-5):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Moses and Aaron came in unto Pharaoh, and said unto him, Thus saith the Lord God of the Hebrews, How long wilt thou refuse to humble thyself before me? let my people go, that they may serve me.  &#xD;&#xA;Else, if thou refuse to let my people go, behold, to morrow will I bring the locusts into thy coast:  &#xD;&#xA;And they shall cover the face of the earth, that one cannot be able to see the earth: and they shall eat the residue of that which is escaped, which remaineth unto you from the hail, and shall eat every tree which groweth for you out of the field:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And Pharoah, refusing to heed the words of Moses and Aaron, is punished with the specified plague of locusts, along with 9 other plagues over the course of the story." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6387" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1474" RevisionGUID="1c124791-1ea7-48f3-80b3-4ca927389343" CreationDate="2016-03-06T20:41:59.660" UserId="967" Comment="clarifications" Text="I'd like to find the primary sources (if any) for a Persian mythical land called Shadu-kam. It's supposed to be the realm of the Peris, a kind of fairyland, but I can't seem to find much about it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I discovered the name in Umberto Eco's *The Book of Legendary Lands*, where it's described very briefly:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...Persian romances often mention the blissful land of Shadu-kam.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I started digging, and I found a bit more detail in Thomas Keightley's [The Fairy Mythology, Volume 1][1], published in 1828. I have no idea if Keightley is trustworthy, but he writes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jinnestân is the common appellation of the whole of this ideal region.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Its respective empires were divided into many kingdoms, containing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; numerous provinces and cities. **Thus in the Peri-realms we meet with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the luxuriant province of Shad-u-kâm (Pleasure and Delight)**, with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; its magnificent capital Juherabâd (Jewel-city), whose two kings&#xD;&#xA;&gt; solicited the aid of Cahermân against the Deevs, and also the stately&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Amberabâd (Amber-city), and others equally splendid. The metropolis of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Deev-empire is named Ahermanabâd (Aherman's city); and imagination&#xD;&#xA;&gt; has lavished its stores in the description of the enchanted castle,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; palace, and gallery of the Deev monarch, Arzshenk.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's an old book, so transliterations don't always match their modern versions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding the hero Cahermân mentioned above, he later adds:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Cahermân Nâmeh is a romance in Turkish. Cahermân was the father of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sâm, the grandfather of the celebrated Roostem.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This would seem to make Cahermân match the [Nariman][2] of the Shahnameh. But I haven't been able to find anything about Shadu-kam in the Shahnameh, nor can I find any information anywhere on this Cahermân Nâmeh romance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've found other books that mention Shadu-kam, but most seem like they're just repeating Keightley. The Keightley book might even be Eco's source, but it's hard to tell.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any other primary sources you know of? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/41006/41006-h/41006-h.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nariman_(father_of_S%C4%81m)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6388" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1474" RevisionGUID="1c124791-1ea7-48f3-80b3-4ca927389343" CreationDate="2016-03-06T20:41:59.660" Comment="Proposed by 967 approved by 111, -1 edit id of 309" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6389" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1474" RevisionGUID="38f992f6-b627-480d-b96b-cd516e77690d" CreationDate="2016-03-06T20:41:59.660" UserId="1275" Comment="clarifications" Text="I'd like to find the primary sources (if any) for a Persian mythical land called Shadu-kam. It's supposed to be the realm of the Peris, a kind of fairyland, but I can't seem to find much about it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I discovered the name in Umberto Eco's *The Book of Legendary Lands*, where it's described very briefly:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...Persian romances often mention the blissful land of Shadu-kam.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I started digging, and I found a bit more detail in Thomas Keightley's [The Fairy Mythology, Volume 1][1], published in 1828. I have no idea if Keightley is trustworthy, but he writes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jinnestân is the common appellation of the whole of this ideal region.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Its respective empires were divided into many kingdoms, containing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; numerous provinces and cities. **Thus in the Peri-realms we meet with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the luxuriant province of Shad-u-kâm (Pleasure and Delight)**, with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; its magnificent capital Juherabâd (Jewel-city), whose two kings&#xD;&#xA;&gt; solicited the aid of Cahermân against the Deevs, and also the stately&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Amberabâd (Amber-city), and others equally splendid. The metropolis of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Deev-empire is named Ahermanabâd (Aherman's city); and imagination&#xD;&#xA;&gt; has lavished its stores in the description of the enchanted castle,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; palace, and gallery of the Deev monarch, Arzshenk.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's an old book, so transliterations don't always match their modern versions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding the hero Cahermân mentioned above, he later adds:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Cahermân Nâmeh is a romance in Turkish. Cahermân was the father of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sâm, the grandfather of the celebrated Roostem.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This would seem to make Cahermân match the [Nariman][2] of the Shahnameh. But I haven't been able to find anything about Shadu-kam in the Shahnameh, nor can I find any information anywhere on this Cahermân Nâmeh romance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've found other books that mention Shadu-kam, but most seem like they're just repeating Keightley. The Keightley book might even be Eco's source, but it's hard to tell.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does anyone know of any primary sources?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/41006/41006-h/41006-h.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nariman_(father_of_S%C4%81m)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6394" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1478" RevisionGUID="a2a7202f-ba34-4911-aecc-3c8aeead6109" CreationDate="2016-03-07T06:30:39.203" UserId="467" Comment="added 32 characters in body" Text="This question needs to be answered from the perspective of the likely intent of the author and in light of what the term Eden meant in the times before and up to the period when the story was written (in my view probably 9th-7th centuries BCE, though perhaps somewhat later).&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;We must first recognize that, in the Eden story itself, the term Eden refers to the desolate/arid geographical region within which Yahweh first created the man and put him there, and only after that planted the garden (Gen 2.8: “a garden *in* Eden”). So looking simply and specifically for the paradise garden would be (so to speak) barking up the wrong tree. There is a Western Semitic root (*ʽdn*), used for example in Ugarit, meaning lush or luxuriant upon which the author may have drawn in deciding how to name the Garden, but this gives us nothing about the garden’s location. (If anything, it would imply Syria, which does not appear consistent with the description in Gen 2:10-14.) Looking to Mesopotamia is more fruitful.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Mesopotamia the term the term referred to a dry plain (Sumerian (*edin*) and Akkadian (*edinu*), including between rivers; the more attested term in Akkadian was *seru,* which was a translation of the same, pronounced as *seru* but written with almost the same Cuneiform sign as the Sumerian. Akkadian was the *lingua franca* of the region, but scholars debate whether an educated scribe in Judah such as the author of the Eden story would have been familiar with this word. In any event, this information, together with that provided by the author in Genesis 2.10-14, suggests a location generally within Mesopotamia, perhaps between the Tigris and Euphrates. Frankly, having reviewed the various attempts to be more precise, I've seen that they all have serious problems and that none of them has gained traction among scholars. So I don’t think we can be more precise than what I’ve described here, and more significantly I doubt that the author intended any greater precision; probably he was deliberately not specific. Thus, he said only that Eden was “in the East” and that the 4 rivers flowed out of there (Gen 2:8). But we don’t know where “there” is, i.e., the location from which they are said to flow. Identifying the names of the rivers only brings us to somewhere in Mesopotamia, which gets us no further than what I’ve mentioned above.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think the description of the 4 rivers flowing from an unspecified point on Mesopotamian territory needs to be read mythologically, rather than as an attempt to be geographically specific. As mentioned, creation on earth began in a desolate Eden, signifying a  kind of primordial chaos (only desert rather than waters) onto which the order of creation was imposed. By having Yahweh form the first human and the first plants (i.e., the Garden) there, he made the Garden the center of creation and the original center of the earth, which makes it a holy place, which is why Yahweh had his presence there. It is a Center in the sense meant by Mircea Eliade and Joseph Campbell (Eliade and Sullivan; Eliade; Campbell), where primordial chaos was transformed into the order of creation, which is why it is sacred. The 4 rivers flowing from that spot symbolize the Garden as that Center, and also helps explain how the rest of the earth (originally barren  outside of the Garden) became fertile and full of life. The imagery of the Center is further enhanced by the 2 sacred trees being there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, I should mention that in choosing the term Eden the author may have been making a secondary allusion to Beth Eden mentioned elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible (Amos 1:5; 2 Kings 19:12; Isaiah 37:2). This was an Aramaic kingdom on the banks of the upper Euphrates in Syria (so no dry steppe here). Its name in Aramaic (*bit-adini*) means &quot;House of Eden,&quot; with *adini* being the family name of the ruling dynasty (cf. &quot;House of David&quot;). By the time the Eden story was written, Assyria had taken over Beth Eden, and was using it as a launching base from which to invade Syria-Palestine. Thus, the author may have been using Eden, on the one hand to allude to the Assyrian military, cultural, and pagan religious threat coming from Assyria/Syria at the time, but on the other hand an ideal place (i.e., Israel) arising from within and being threatened by this hostile environment. From this perspective, Israel was indeed viewed as the ideal Center of the world, and indeed Jerusalem itself, and specifically its Temple.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is only the tip of the iceberg. Further details are contained in my book about the mythology behind the Garden of Eden story, below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sources:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Joseph Campbell. *The Mythic Image.* New York: MJF Books, 1974, pp. 184-207.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mircea Eliade. *The Myth of the Eternal Return.* Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1991, pp. 12-17.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mircea Eliade and Lawrence Sullivan. “Center of the World,” *Encyclopedia of Religion,* vol. 3, pp. 166-71.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Arthur George and Elena George. *The Mythology of Eden.* Lanham, Maryland: Hamilton Books, 2014, pp. 100-24." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6395" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1478" RevisionGUID="b2cef8ff-bd86-4d83-a953-45cbb605bd06" CreationDate="2016-03-07T06:47:49.397" UserId="467" Comment="added 32 characters in body" Text="This question needs to be answered from the perspective of the likely intent of the author and in light of what the term Eden meant in the times before and up to the period when the story was written (in my view probably 9th-7th centuries BCE, though perhaps somewhat later).&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;We must first recognize that, in the Eden story itself, the term Eden refers to the desolate/arid geographical region within which Yahweh first created the man and put him there, and only after that planted the garden (Gen 2.8: “a garden *in* Eden”). So looking simply and specifically for the paradise garden would be (so to speak) barking up the wrong tree. There is a Western Semitic root (*ʽdn*), used for example in Ugarit, meaning lush or luxuriant upon which the author may have drawn in deciding how to name the Garden, but this gives us nothing about the garden’s location. (If anything, it would imply Syria, which does not appear consistent with the description in Gen 2:10-14.) Looking to Mesopotamia is more fruitful.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Mesopotamia the term the term referred to a dry plain (Sumerian (*edin*) and Akkadian (*edinu*), including between rivers; the more attested term in Akkadian was *seru,* which was a translation of the same, pronounced as *seru* but written with almost the same Cuneiform sign as the Sumerian. Akkadian was the *lingua franca* of the region, but scholars debate whether an educated scribe in Judah such as the author of the Eden story would have been familiar with this word. In any event, this information, together with that provided by the author in Genesis 2.10-14, suggests a location generally within Mesopotamia, perhaps between the Tigris and Euphrates. Frankly, having reviewed the various attempts to be more precise, I've seen that they all have serious problems and that none of them has gained traction among scholars. So I don’t think we can be more precise than what I’ve described here, and more significantly I doubt that the author intended any greater precision; probably he was deliberately not specific: He said only that Eden was “in the East” and that the 4 rivers flowed out of there (Gen 2:8). But we don’t know where “there” is, i.e., the location from which they are said to flow. Identifying the names of the rivers only brings us to somewhere in Mesopotamia, which gets us no further than what I’ve mentioned above. The somewhat fashionable hypothesis of the garden of Eden as referring to a lush area that now lies under the Persian Gulf (spurred in part from the Dilmun myth) runs aground against the biblical text: (a) as mentioned, our author said that &quot;Eden&quot; is actually an hostile, arid geographical region; (b) the word in Hebrew used for &quot;garden&quot; in the story (*gan*) is that used for a fairly small, artificial garden (usually enclosed by walls), not a climactic area; and (c) our author said the rivers flow *from* the garden in Eden, not *into* it, as would be the case with the mouth of what is now the Persian Gulf.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think the description of the 4 rivers flowing from an unspecified point on Mesopotamian territory needs to be read mythologically, rather than as an attempt to be geographically specific. As mentioned, creation on earth began in a desolate Eden, signifying a  kind of primordial chaos (only desert rather than waters) onto which the order of creation was imposed. By having Yahweh form the first human and the first plants (i.e., the Garden) there, he made the Garden the center of creation and the original center of the earth, which makes it a holy place, which is why Yahweh had his presence there. It is a Center in the sense meant by Mircea Eliade and Joseph Campbell (Eliade and Sullivan; Eliade; Campbell), where primordial chaos was transformed into the order of creation, which is why it is sacred. The 4 rivers flowing from that spot symbolize the Garden as that Center, and also helps explain how the rest of the earth (originally barren  outside of the Garden) became fertile and full of life. The imagery of the Center is further enhanced by the 2 sacred trees being there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, I should mention that in choosing the term Eden the author may have been making a secondary allusion to Beth Eden mentioned elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible (Amos 1:5; 2 Kings 19:12; Isaiah 37:2). This was an Aramaic kingdom on the banks of the upper Euphrates in Syria (so no dry steppe here). Its name in Aramaic (*bit-adini*) means &quot;House of Eden,&quot; with *adini* being the family name of the ruling dynasty (cf. &quot;House of David&quot;). By the time the Eden story was written, Assyria had taken over Beth Eden, and was using it as a launching base from which to invade Syria-Palestine. Thus, the author may have been using Eden, on the one hand to allude to the Assyrian military, cultural, and pagan religious threat coming from Assyria/Syria at the time, but on the other hand an ideal place (i.e., Israel) arising from within and being threatened by this hostile environment. From this perspective, Israel was indeed viewed as the ideal Center of the world, and indeed Jerusalem itself, and specifically its Temple.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is only the tip of the iceberg. Further details are contained in my book about the mythology behind the Garden of Eden story, below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sources:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Joseph Campbell. *The Mythic Image.* New York: MJF Books, 1974, pp. 184-207.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mircea Eliade. *The Myth of the Eternal Return.* Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1991, pp. 12-17.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mircea Eliade and Lawrence Sullivan. “Center of the World,” *Encyclopedia of Religion,* vol. 3, pp. 166-71.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Arthur George and Elena George. *The Mythology of Eden.* Lanham, Maryland: Hamilton Books, 2014, pp. 100-24." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6396" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1478" RevisionGUID="08ae94fc-7d15-4d30-8581-b3c235a75696" CreationDate="2016-03-07T06:54:16.287" UserId="467" Comment="added 32 characters in body" Text="This question needs to be answered from the perspective of the likely intent of the author and in light of what the term Eden meant in the times before and up to the period when the story was written (in my view probably 9th-7th centuries BCE, though perhaps somewhat later).&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;We must first recognize that, in the Eden story itself, the term Eden refers to the desolate/arid geographical region within which Yahweh first created the man and put him there, and only after that planted the garden (Gen 2.8: “a garden *in* Eden”). So looking simply and specifically for the paradise garden would be (so to speak) barking up the wrong tree. There is a Western Semitic root (*ʽdn*), used for example in Ugarit, meaning lush or luxuriant upon which the author may have drawn in deciding how to name the Garden, but this gives us nothing about the garden’s location. (If anything, it would imply Syria, which does not appear consistent with the description in Gen 2:10-14.) Looking to Mesopotamia is more fruitful.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Mesopotamia the term the term referred to a dry plain (Sumerian (*edin*) and Akkadian (*edinu*), including between rivers; the more attested term in Akkadian was *seru,* which was a translation of the same, pronounced as *seru* but written with almost the same Cuneiform sign as the Sumerian. Akkadian was the *lingua franca* of the region, but scholars debate whether an educated scribe in Judah such as the author of the Eden story would have been familiar with this word. In any event, this information, together with that provided by the author in Genesis 2.10-14, suggests a location generally within Mesopotamia, perhaps between the Tigris and Euphrates. Frankly, having reviewed the various attempts to be more precise, I've seen that they all have serious problems and that none of them has gained traction among scholars. So I don’t think we can be more precise than what I’ve described here, and more significantly I doubt that the author intended any greater precision; probably he was deliberately not specific: He said only that Eden was “in the East” and that the 4 rivers flowed out of there (Gen 2:8). But we don’t know where “there” is, i.e., the location from which they are said to flow. Identifying the names of the rivers only brings us to somewhere in Mesopotamia, which gets us no further than what I’ve mentioned above. The somewhat fashionable hypothesis of the garden of Eden as referring to a lush area that now lies under the Persian Gulf (spurred in part from the Dilmun myth) runs aground against the biblical text: (a) as mentioned, our author said that &quot;Eden&quot; is actually an hostile, arid geographical region; (b) the Hebrew word used for &quot;garden&quot; in the story (*gan*) means a fairly small, artificial garden (usually enclosed by walls), not a climactic area; and (c) our author said that the rivers split and flow *from* the garden in Eden, not *into* it, as would be the case with the mouth of what is now the Persian Gulf.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think the description of the 4 rivers flowing from an unspecified point on Mesopotamian territory needs to be read mythologically, rather than as an attempt to be geographically specific. As mentioned, creation on earth began in a desolate Eden, signifying a  kind of primordial chaos (only desert rather than waters) onto which the order of creation was imposed. By having Yahweh form the first human and the first plants (i.e., the Garden) there, he made the Garden the center of creation and the original center of the earth, which makes it a holy place, which is why Yahweh had his presence there. It is a Center in the sense meant by Mircea Eliade and Joseph Campbell (Eliade and Sullivan; Eliade; Campbell), where primordial chaos was transformed into the order of creation, which is why it is sacred. The 4 rivers flowing from that spot symbolize the Garden as that Center, and also helps explain how the rest of the earth (originally barren  outside of the Garden) became fertile and full of life. The imagery of the Center is further enhanced by the 2 sacred trees being there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, I should mention that in choosing the term Eden the author may have been making a secondary allusion to Beth Eden mentioned elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible (Amos 1:5; 2 Kings 19:12; Isaiah 37:2). This was an Aramaic kingdom on the banks of the upper Euphrates in Syria (so no dry steppe here). Its name in Aramaic (*bit-adini*) means &quot;House of Eden,&quot; with *adini* being the family name of the ruling dynasty (cf. &quot;House of David&quot;). By the time the Eden story was written, Assyria had taken over Beth Eden, and was using it as a launching base from which to invade Syria-Palestine. Thus, the author may have been using Eden, on the one hand to allude to the Assyrian military, cultural, and pagan religious threat coming from Assyria/Syria at the time, but on the other hand an ideal place (i.e., Israel) arising from within and being threatened by this hostile environment. From this perspective, Israel was indeed viewed as the ideal Center of the world, and indeed Jerusalem itself, and specifically its Temple.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is only the tip of the iceberg. Further details are contained in my book about the mythology behind the Garden of Eden story, below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sources:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Joseph Campbell. *The Mythic Image.* New York: MJF Books, 1974, pp. 184-207.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mircea Eliade. *The Myth of the Eternal Return.* Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1991, pp. 12-17.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mircea Eliade and Lawrence Sullivan. “Center of the World,” *Encyclopedia of Religion,* vol. 3, pp. 166-71.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Arthur George and Elena George. *The Mythology of Eden.* Lanham, Maryland: Hamilton Books, 2014, pp. 100-24." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6397" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1478" RevisionGUID="a21d79d6-9737-47ec-ada6-933c30634866" CreationDate="2016-03-07T07:02:16.407" UserId="467" Comment="added 32 characters in body" Text="This question needs to be answered from the perspective of the likely intent of the author and in light of what the term Eden meant in the times before and up to the period when the story was written (in my view probably 9th-7th centuries BCE, though perhaps somewhat later).&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;We must first recognize that, in the Eden story itself, the term Eden refers to the desolate/arid geographical region within which Yahweh first created the man and put him there, and only after that planted the garden (Gen 2.8: “a garden *in* Eden”). So looking simply and specifically for the paradise garden would be (so to speak) barking up the wrong tree. There is a Western Semitic root (*ʽdn*), used for example in Ugarit, meaning lush or luxuriant upon which the author may have drawn in deciding how to name the Garden, but this gives us nothing about the garden’s location. (If anything, it would imply Syria, which does not appear consistent with the description in Gen 2:10-14.) Looking to Mesopotamia is more fruitful.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Mesopotamia the term the term referred to a dry plain (Sumerian (*edin*) and Akkadian (*edinu*), including between rivers; the more attested term in Akkadian was *seru,* which was a translation of the same, pronounced as *seru* but written with almost the same Cuneiform sign as the Sumerian. Akkadian was the *lingua franca* of the region, but scholars debate whether an educated scribe in Judah such as the author of the Eden story would have been familiar with this word. In any event, this information, together with that provided by the author in Genesis 2.10-14, suggests a location generally within Mesopotamia, perhaps between the Tigris and Euphrates. Frankly, having reviewed the various attempts to be more precise, I've seen that they all have serious problems and that none of them has gained traction among scholars. So I don’t think we can be more precise than what I’ve described here, and more significantly I doubt that the author intended any greater precision; probably he was deliberately not specific: He said only that Eden was “in the East” and that the 4 rivers flowed out of there (Gen 2:8). But we don’t know where “there” is, i.e., the location from which they are said to flow. Identifying the names of the rivers only brings us to somewhere in Mesopotamia, which gets us no further than what I’ve mentioned above. The somewhat fashionable hypothesis of the garden of Eden as referring to a lush area that now lies under the Persian Gulf (spurred in part from the Dilmun myth) runs aground against the biblical text: (a) as mentioned, our author said that &quot;Eden&quot; is actually an hostile, arid geographical region; (b) the Hebrew word used for &quot;garden&quot; in the story (*gan*) means a fairly small, artificial garden (usually enclosed by walls), not a climactic area; and (c) our author said that the rivers split and flow *from* the garden in Eden, not *into* it, as would be the case with the mouth of what is now the Persian Gulf.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think the description of the 4 rivers flowing from an unspecified point on Mesopotamian territory needs to be read mythologically, rather than as an attempt to be geographically specific. As mentioned, creation on earth began in a desolate Eden, signifying a  kind of primordial chaos (only desert rather than waters) onto which the order of creation was imposed. By having Yahweh form the first human and the first plants (i.e., the Garden) there, he made the Garden the center of creation and the original center of the earth, which makes it a holy place, which is why Yahweh had his presence there. It is a Center in the sense meant by Mircea Eliade and Joseph Campbell (Eliade and Sullivan; Eliade; Campbell), where primordial chaos was transformed into the order of creation, which is why it is sacred. The 4 rivers flowing from that spot symbolize the Garden as that Center, and also helps explain how the rest of the earth (originally barren  outside of the Garden) became fertile and full of life. The imagery of the Center is further enhanced by the 2 sacred trees being there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, I should mention that in choosing the term Eden the author may have been making a secondary allusion to Beth Eden mentioned elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible (Amos 1:5; 2 Kings 19:12; Isaiah 37:2). This was an Aramaic kingdom on the banks of the upper Euphrates in Syria (so no dry steppe here). Its name in Aramaic (*bit-adini*) means &quot;House of Eden,&quot; with *adini* being the family name of the ruling dynasty (cf. &quot;House of David&quot;). By the time the Eden story was written, Assyria had taken over Beth Eden, and was using it as a launching base from which to invade Syria-Palestine. Thus, the author may have been employing &quot;Eden,&quot; on the one hand, to allude to the military, cultural, and pagan religious threat coming from Assyria/eastern Syria at the time, while on the other hand as an ideal place (i.e., Israel, land of milk and honey) arising from within and being threatened by this surrounding hostile cultural and religious environment. (The Eden story was, after all, in significant part a polemic against &quot;foreign&quot; pagan religion, as detailed in my book.) From this perspective, Israel was viewed as the ideal Center of the world, and more specifically Jerusalem itself, especially its Temple (George and George, pp. 121-24).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is only the tip of the iceberg. Further details are contained in my book about the mythology behind the Garden of Eden story, below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sources:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Joseph Campbell. *The Mythic Image.* New York: MJF Books, 1974, pp. 184-207.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mircea Eliade. *The Myth of the Eternal Return.* Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1991, pp. 12-17.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mircea Eliade and Lawrence Sullivan. “Center of the World,” *Encyclopedia of Religion,* vol. 3, pp. 166-71.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Arthur George and Elena George. *The Mythology of Eden.* Lanham, Maryland: Hamilton Books, 2014, pp. 100-24." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6398" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1478" RevisionGUID="e344232a-a4e3-4f16-b5f2-5bd571ca37a4" CreationDate="2016-03-07T21:15:07.190" UserId="467" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="This question needs to be answered from the perspective of the likely intent of the author and in light of what the term Eden meant in the times before and up to the period when the story was written (in my view probably 9th-7th centuries BCE, though perhaps somewhat later).&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;We must first recognize that, in the Eden story itself, the term Eden refers to the desolate/arid geographical region within which Yahweh first created the man and put him there, and only after that planted the garden (Gen 2.8: “a garden *in* Eden”). So looking simply and specifically for the paradise garden would be (so to speak) barking up the wrong tree. There is a Western Semitic root (*ʽdn*), used for example in Ugarit, meaning lush or luxuriant upon which the author may have drawn in deciding how to name the Garden, but this gives us nothing about the garden’s location. (If anything, it would imply Syria, which does not appear consistent with the description in Gen 2:10-14.) Looking to Mesopotamia is more fruitful.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Mesopotamia the term the term referred to a dry plain (Sumerian (*edin*) and Akkadian (*edinu*), including between rivers; the more attested term in Akkadian was *seru,* which was a translation of the same, pronounced as *seru* but written with almost the same Cuneiform sign as the Sumerian. Akkadian was the *lingua franca* of the region, but scholars debate whether an educated scribe in Judah such as the author of the Eden story would have been familiar with this word. In any event, this information, together with that provided by the author in Genesis 2.10-14, suggests a location generally within Mesopotamia, perhaps between the Tigris and Euphrates. Frankly, having reviewed the various attempts to be more precise, I've seen that they all have serious problems and that none of them has gained traction among scholars. So I don’t think we can be more precise than what I’ve described here, and more significantly I doubt that the author intended any greater precision; probably he was deliberately not specific: He said only that Eden was “in the East” and that the 4 rivers flowed out of there (Gen 2:8). But we don’t know where “there” is, i.e., the location from which they are said to flow. Identifying the names of the rivers only brings us to somewhere in Mesopotamia, which gets us no further than what I’ve mentioned above. The somewhat fashionable hypothesis of the garden of Eden as referring to a lush area that now lies under the Persian Gulf (spurred in part from the Dilmun myth) runs aground against the biblical text: (a) as mentioned, our author said that &quot;Eden&quot; is actually an hostile, arid geographical region; (b) the Hebrew word used for &quot;garden&quot; in the story (*gan*) means a fairly small, artificial garden (usually enclosed by walls), not a climactic area; and (c) our author said that the rivers split and flow *from* the garden in Eden, not *into* it as would be the case with the mouth of what is now the Persian Gulf.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think the description of the 4 rivers flowing from an unspecified point on Mesopotamian territory needs to be read mythologically, rather than as an attempt to be geographically specific. As mentioned, creation on earth began in a desolate Eden, signifying a  kind of primordial chaos (only desert rather than waters) onto which the order of creation was imposed. By having Yahweh form the first human and the first plants (i.e., the Garden) there, he made the Garden the center of creation and the original center of the earth, which makes it a holy place, which is why Yahweh had his presence there. It is a Center in the sense meant by Mircea Eliade and Joseph Campbell (Eliade and Sullivan; Eliade; Campbell), where primordial chaos was transformed into the order of creation, which is why it is sacred. The 4 rivers flowing from that spot symbolize the Garden as that Center, and also helps explain how the rest of the earth (originally barren  outside of the Garden) became fertile and full of life. The imagery of the Center is further enhanced by the 2 sacred trees being there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, I should mention that in choosing the term Eden the author may have been making a secondary allusion to Beth Eden mentioned elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible (Amos 1:5; 2 Kings 19:12; Isaiah 37:2). This was an Aramaic kingdom on the banks of the upper Euphrates in Syria (so no dry steppe here). Its name in Aramaic (*bit-adini*) means &quot;House of Eden,&quot; with *adini* being the family name of the ruling dynasty (cf. &quot;House of David&quot;). By the time the Eden story was written, Assyria had taken over Beth Eden, and was using it as a launching base from which to invade Syria-Palestine. Thus, the author may have been employing &quot;Eden,&quot; on the one hand, to allude to the military, cultural, and pagan religious threat coming from Assyria/eastern Syria at the time, while on the other hand as an ideal place (i.e., Israel, land of milk and honey) arising from within and being threatened by this surrounding hostile cultural and religious environment. (The Eden story was, after all, in significant part a polemic against &quot;foreign&quot; pagan religion, as detailed in my book.) From this perspective, Israel was viewed as the ideal Center of the world, and more specifically Jerusalem itself, especially its Temple (George and George, pp. 121-24).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is only the tip of the iceberg. Further details are contained in my book about the mythology behind the Garden of Eden story, below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sources:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Joseph Campbell. *The Mythic Image.* New York: MJF Books, 1974, pp. 184-207.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mircea Eliade. *The Myth of the Eternal Return.* Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1991, pp. 12-17.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mircea Eliade and Lawrence Sullivan. “Center of the World,” *Encyclopedia of Religion,* vol. 3, pp. 166-71.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Arthur George and Elena George. *The Mythology of Eden.* Lanham, Maryland: Hamilton Books, 2014, pp. 100-24." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6399" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1484" RevisionGUID="cc83ccfe-8db9-4082-9d8c-f5f053338b8f" CreationDate="2016-03-08T00:03:32.070" UserId="1296" Text="The *nostoi*, or journeys home, of many of the heroes of the Trojan War are recounted by Homer -- most famously that of Odysseus -- or were known in antiquity but later lost. Is anything known about how Helen got back to Sparta?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Odyssey*, book 4, Telemachus visits Sparta and hears the story of the *nostos* of Menelaos, who was blown off course to Egypt and could not return home until he had wrestled Proteus, the Old Man of the Sea. But Helen doesn't seem to have been with Menelaos then, which is odd seeing as the whole purpose of the war was for him to bring her back. Did they travel home separately? If so, she must have got home many years before him, but this is never mentioned. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any sources that touch on the specifics of how Helen returned from Troy to Sparta?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6400" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1484" RevisionGUID="cc83ccfe-8db9-4082-9d8c-f5f053338b8f" CreationDate="2016-03-08T00:03:32.070" UserId="1296" Text="How did Helen get back from Troy?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6401" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1484" RevisionGUID="cc83ccfe-8db9-4082-9d8c-f5f053338b8f" CreationDate="2016-03-08T00:03:32.070" UserId="1296" Text="|greek|homer|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6402" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1485" RevisionGUID="fa75abeb-56c3-447d-938f-d7774280da85" CreationDate="2016-03-08T00:37:27.020" UserId="1273" Text="What is the differences between the two versions of these myths? How can they be interpreted? The first image is a Bell crater by a Berlin painter in Tarquinia (Italy), Museum. C. 490 BC, it has detail with Zeus and Europa.The next image pertains to Europa and is a wall painting in Naples, National Museum(from Pompeii (IX,5,18)). I understand they both have ties to Europa but I want to identify the differences between the intended versions of the myth. How can each of them be interpreted possibly differently? I have recently been interested in Greek Art and want to learn more about these specific pieces as I believe they can be very much related to one another but there much be differences? [![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/L48kT.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/cYLPx.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6403" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1485" RevisionGUID="fa75abeb-56c3-447d-938f-d7774280da85" CreationDate="2016-03-08T00:37:27.020" UserId="1273" Text="What is the differences between the two versions of these myths?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6404" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1485" RevisionGUID="fa75abeb-56c3-447d-938f-d7774280da85" CreationDate="2016-03-08T00:37:27.020" UserId="1273" Text="|greek|myth-identification|interpretation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6405" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1478" RevisionGUID="8b227dba-c8a9-4d4c-805f-d854dbb9abb7" CreationDate="2016-03-08T04:56:25.947" UserId="467" Comment="deleted 9 characters in body" Text="This question needs to be answered from the perspective of the likely intent of the author and in light of what the term Eden meant in the times before and up to the period when the story was written (in my view probably 9th-7th centuries BCE, though perhaps somewhat later).&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;We must first recognize that, in the Eden story itself, the term Eden refers to the desolate/arid geographical region within which Yahweh first created the man and put him there, and only after that planted the garden (Gen 2.8: “a garden *in* Eden”). So looking simply and specifically for the paradise garden would be (so to speak) barking up the wrong tree. There is a Western Semitic root (*ʽdn*), used for example in Ugarit, meaning lush or luxuriant upon which the author may have drawn in deciding how to name the Garden, but this gives us nothing about the garden’s location. (If anything, it would imply Syria, which does not appear consistent with the description in Gen 2:10-14.) Looking to Mesopotamia is more fruitful.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Mesopotamia the term referred to a dry plain (Sumerian (*edin*) and Akkadian (*edinu*), including between rivers; the more attested term in Akkadian was *seru,* which was a translation of the same, pronounced as *seru* but written with almost the same Cuneiform sign as the Sumerian. Akkadian was the *lingua franca* of the region, but scholars debate whether an educated scribe in Judah such as the author of the Eden story would have been familiar with this word; but he did properly use it to refer to a an arid area.... In any event, this information, together with that provided by the author in Genesis 2.10-14, suggests a location generally within Mesopotamia, perhaps between the Tigris and Euphrates. Frankly, having reviewed the various attempts to be more precise, I've seen that they all have serious problems and that none of them has gained traction among scholars. So I don’t think we can be more precise than what I’ve described here, and more significantly I doubt that the author intended any greater precision; probably he was deliberately not specific: He said only that Eden was “in the East” and that the 4 rivers flowed out of there (Gen 2:8). But we don’t know where “there” is, i.e., the location from which they are said to flow. Identifying the names of the rivers only brings us to somewhere in Mesopotamia, which gets us no further than what I’ve mentioned above. The somewhat fashionable hypothesis of the garden of Eden as referring to a lush area that now lies under the Persian Gulf (spurred in part from the Dilmun myth) runs aground against the biblical text: (a) as mentioned, our author said that &quot;Eden&quot; is actually an hostile, arid geographical region; (b) the Hebrew word used for &quot;garden&quot; in the story (*gan*) means a fairly small, artificial garden (usually enclosed by walls), not a climactic area; and (c) our author said that the rivers split and flow *from* the garden in Eden, not *into* it as would be the case with the mouth of what is now the Persian Gulf.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think the description of the 4 rivers flowing from an unspecified point on Mesopotamian territory needs to be read mythologically, rather than as an attempt to be geographically specific. As mentioned, creation on earth began in a desolate Eden, signifying a  kind of primordial chaos (only desert rather than waters) onto which the order of creation was imposed. By having Yahweh form the first human and the first plants (i.e., the Garden) there, he made the Garden the center of creation and the original center of the earth, which makes it a holy place, which is why Yahweh had his presence there. It is a Center in the sense meant by Mircea Eliade and Joseph Campbell (Eliade and Sullivan; Eliade; Campbell), where primordial chaos was transformed into the order of creation, which is why it is sacred. The 4 rivers flowing from that spot symbolize the Garden as that Center, and also helps explain how the rest of the earth (originally barren  outside of the Garden) became fertile and full of life. The imagery of the Center is further enhanced by the 2 sacred trees being there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, I should mention that in choosing the term Eden the author may have been making a secondary allusion to Beth Eden mentioned elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible (Amos 1:5; 2 Kings 19:12; Isaiah 37:2). This was an Aramaic kingdom on the banks of the upper Euphrates in Syria (so no dry steppe here). Its name in Aramaic (*bit-adini*) means &quot;House of Eden,&quot; with *adini* being the family name of the ruling dynasty (cf. &quot;House of David&quot;). By the time the Eden story was written, Assyria had taken over Beth Eden, and was using it as a launching base from which to invade Syria-Palestine. Thus, the author may have been employing &quot;Eden,&quot; on the one hand, to allude to the military, cultural, and pagan religious threat coming from Assyria/eastern Syria at the time, while on the other hand as an ideal place (i.e., Israel, land of milk and honey) arising from within and being threatened by this surrounding hostile cultural and religious environment. (The Eden story was, after all, in significant part a polemic against &quot;foreign&quot; pagan religion, as detailed in my book.) From this perspective, Israel was viewed as the ideal Center of the world, and more specifically Jerusalem itself, especially its Temple (George and George, pp. 121-24).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is only the tip of the iceberg. Further details are contained in my book about the mythology behind the Garden of Eden story, below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sources:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Joseph Campbell. *The Mythic Image.* New York: MJF Books, 1974, pp. 184-207.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mircea Eliade. *The Myth of the Eternal Return.* Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1991, pp. 12-17.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mircea Eliade and Lawrence Sullivan. “Center of the World,” *Encyclopedia of Religion,* vol. 3, pp. 166-71.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Arthur George and Elena George. *The Mythology of Eden.* Lanham, Maryland: Hamilton Books, 2014, pp. 100-24." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6406" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1478" RevisionGUID="08d8b8ff-42e8-42d6-b6dc-d8d89365ff08" CreationDate="2016-03-08T05:03:15.263" UserId="467" Comment="added 6 characters in body" Text="This question needs to be answered from the perspective of the likely intent of the author and in light of what the term Eden meant in the times before and up to the period when the story was written (in my view probably 9th-7th centuries BCE, though perhaps somewhat later).&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;We must first recognize that, in the Eden story itself, the term Eden refers to the desolate/arid geographical region within which Yahweh first created the man and put him there, and only after that planted the garden (Gen 2.8: “a garden *in* Eden”). So looking simply and specifically for the paradise garden would be (so to speak) barking up the wrong tree. There is a Western Semitic root (*ʽdn*), used for example in Ugarit, meaning lush or luxuriant upon which the author may have drawn in deciding how to name the Garden, but this gives us nothing about the garden’s location. (If anything, it would imply Syria, which does not appear consistent with the description in Gen 2:10-14.) Looking to Mesopotamia is more fruitful.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Mesopotamia the term referred to a dry plain (Sumerian (*edin*) and Akkadian (*edinu*), including between rivers; the more attested term in Akkadian was *seru,* which was a translation of the same, pronounced as *seru* but written with almost the same Cuneiform sign as the Sumerian. Akkadian was still the *lingua franca* of the region, but scholars debate whether an educated scribe in Judah such as the author of the Eden story would have been familiar with this word; but he did properly use it to refer to an arid area.... In any event, this information, together with that provided by the author in Genesis 2.10-14, suggests a location generally within Mesopotamia, perhaps between the Tigris and Euphrates. Frankly, having reviewed the various attempts to be more precise, I've seen that they all have serious problems and that none of them has gained traction among scholars. So I don’t think we can be more precise than what I’ve described here, and more significantly I doubt that the author intended any greater precision; probably he was deliberately not specific: He said only that Eden was “in the East” and that the 4 rivers flowed out of there (Gen 2:8). But we don’t know where “there” is, i.e., the location from which they are said to flow. Identifying the names of the rivers only brings us to somewhere in Mesopotamia, which gets us no further than what I’ve mentioned above. The somewhat fashionable hypothesis of the garden of Eden as referring to a lush area that now lies under the Persian Gulf (inspired in part by the Dilmun myth) runs aground against the biblical text: (a) as mentioned, our author said that &quot;Eden&quot; is actually an hostile, arid geographical region; (b) the Hebrew word used for &quot;garden&quot; in the story (*gan*) means a fairly small, artificial garden (usually enclosed by walls), not a climactic area; and (c) our author said that the rivers split and flow *from* the garden in Eden, not *into* it as would be the case with the mouth of what is now the Persian Gulf.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think the description of the 4 rivers flowing from an unspecified point on Mesopotamian territory needs to be read mythologically, rather than as an attempt to be geographically specific. As mentioned, creation on earth began in a desolate Eden, signifying a  kind of primordial chaos (only desert rather than waters) onto which the order of creation was imposed. By having Yahweh form the first human and the first plants (i.e., the Garden) there, he made the Garden the center of creation and the original center of the earth, which makes it a holy place, which is why Yahweh had his presence there. It is a Center in the sense meant by Mircea Eliade and Joseph Campbell (Eliade and Sullivan; Eliade; Campbell), where primordial chaos was transformed into the order of creation, which is why it is sacred. The 4 rivers flowing from that spot symbolize the Garden as that Center, and also helps explain how the rest of the earth (originally barren  outside of the Garden) became fertile and full of life. The imagery of the Center is further enhanced by the 2 sacred trees being there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, I should mention that in choosing the term Eden the author may have been making a secondary allusion to Beth Eden mentioned elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible (Amos 1:5; 2 Kings 19:12; Isaiah 37:2). This was an Aramaic kingdom on the banks of the upper Euphrates in Syria (so no dry steppe here). Its name in Aramaic (*bit-adini*) means &quot;House of Eden,&quot; with *adini* being the family name of the ruling dynasty (cf. &quot;House of David&quot;). By the time the Eden story was written, Assyria had taken over Beth Eden, and was using it as a launching base from which to invade Syria-Palestine. Thus, the author may have been employing &quot;Eden,&quot; on the one hand, to allude to the military, cultural, and pagan religious threat coming from Assyria/eastern Syria at the time, while on the other hand as an ideal place (i.e., Israel, land of milk and honey) arising from within and being threatened by this surrounding hostile cultural and religious environment. (The Eden story was, after all, in significant part a polemic against &quot;foreign&quot; pagan religion, as detailed in my book.) From this perspective, Israel was viewed as the ideal Center of the world, and more specifically Jerusalem itself, especially its Temple (George and George, pp. 121-24).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is only the tip of the iceberg. Further details are contained in my book about the mythology behind the Garden of Eden story, below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sources:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Joseph Campbell. *The Mythic Image.* New York: MJF Books, 1974, pp. 184-207.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mircea Eliade. *The Myth of the Eternal Return.* Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1991, pp. 12-17.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mircea Eliade and Lawrence Sullivan. “Center of the World,” *Encyclopedia of Religion,* vol. 3, pp. 166-71.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Arthur George and Elena George. *The Mythology of Eden.* Lanham, Maryland: Hamilton Books, 2014, pp. 100-24." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6407" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1485" RevisionGUID="b60abbb5-97be-424c-b869-b8726d282a4f" CreationDate="2016-03-08T07:14:17.387" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|interpretation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6408" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1478" RevisionGUID="c2545400-c6f2-4211-a521-d11bb7e32f51" CreationDate="2016-03-08T13:44:27.653" UserId="467" Comment="added 12 characters in body" Text="This question needs to be answered from the perspective of the likely intent of the author and in light of what the term Eden meant in the times before and up to the period when the story was written (in my view probably 9th-7th centuries BCE, though perhaps somewhat later).&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;We must first recognize that, in the Eden story itself, the term Eden refers to the desolate/arid geographical region within which Yahweh first created the man and put him there, and only after that planted the garden (Gen 2.8: “a garden *in* Eden”). So looking simply and specifically for the paradise garden would be (so to speak) barking up the wrong tree. There is a Western Semitic root (*ʽdn*), used for example in Ugarit, meaning lush or luxuriant upon which the author may have drawn in deciding how to name the Garden, but this gives us nothing about the garden’s location. (If anything, it would imply Syria, which does not appear consistent with the description in Gen 2:10-14.) Looking to Mesopotamia is more fruitful.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Mesopotamia the term referred to a dry plain (Sumerian (*edin*) and Akkadian (*edinu*), including between rivers; the more attested term in Akkadian was *seru,* which was a translation of the same, pronounced as *seru* but written with almost the same Cuneiform sign as the Sumerian. Akkadian was still the *lingua franca* of the region, but scholars debate whether an educated scribe in Judah such as the author of the Eden story would have been familiar with this word; but he did properly use it to refer to an arid area.... In any event, this information, together with that provided by the author in Genesis 2.10-14, suggests a location generally within Mesopotamia, perhaps between the Tigris and Euphrates. Frankly, having reviewed the various attempts to be more precise, I've seen that they all have serious problems and that none of them has gained traction among scholars. So I don’t think we can be more precise than what I’ve described here, and more significantly I doubt that the author intended any greater precision; probably he was deliberately not specific: He said only that Eden was “in the East” and that the 4 rivers flowed out of there (Gen 2:8). But we don’t know where “there” is, i.e., the location from which they are said to flow. Identifying the names of the rivers only brings us to somewhere in Mesopotamia, which gets us no further than what I’ve mentioned above. The somewhat fashionable hypothesis of the garden of Eden as referring to a lush area that now lies under the Persian Gulf (inspired in part by the Dilmun myth) runs aground against the biblical text: (a) as mentioned, our author said that &quot;Eden&quot; is actually an hostile, arid geographical region; (b) the Hebrew word used for &quot;garden&quot; in the story (*gan*) means a fairly small, artificial garden (usually enclosed by walls), way too small to be a climactic area; and (c) our author said that the rivers split and flow *from* the garden in Eden, not *into* it as would be the case with the mouth of what is now the Persian Gulf.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think the description of the 4 rivers flowing from an unspecified point on Mesopotamian territory needs to be read mythologically, rather than as an attempt to be geographically specific. As mentioned, creation on earth began in a desolate Eden, signifying a  kind of primordial chaos (only desert rather than waters) onto which the order of creation was imposed. By having Yahweh form the first human and the first plants (i.e., the Garden) there, he made the Garden the center of creation and the original center of the earth, which makes it a holy place, which is why Yahweh had his presence there. It is a Center in the sense meant by Mircea Eliade and Joseph Campbell (Eliade and Sullivan; Eliade; Campbell), where primordial chaos was transformed into the order of creation, which is why it is sacred. The 4 rivers flowing from that spot symbolize the Garden as that Center, and also helps explain how the rest of the earth (originally barren  outside of the Garden) became fertile and full of life. The imagery of the Center is further enhanced by the 2 sacred trees being there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, I should mention that in choosing the term Eden the author may have been making a secondary allusion to Beth Eden mentioned elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible (Amos 1:5; 2 Kings 19:12; Isaiah 37:2). This was an Aramaic kingdom on the banks of the upper Euphrates in Syria (so no dry steppe here). Its name in Aramaic (*bit-adini*) means &quot;House of Eden,&quot; with *adini* being the family name of the ruling dynasty (cf. &quot;House of David&quot;). By the time the Eden story was written, Assyria had taken over Beth Eden, and was using it as a launching base from which to invade Syria-Palestine. Thus, the author may have been employing &quot;Eden,&quot; on the one hand, to allude to the military, cultural, and pagan religious threat coming from Assyria/eastern Syria at the time, while on the other hand as an ideal place (i.e., Israel, land of milk and honey) arising from within and being threatened by this surrounding hostile cultural and religious environment. (The Eden story was, after all, in significant part a polemic against &quot;foreign&quot; pagan religion, as detailed in my book.) From this perspective, Israel was viewed as the ideal Center of the world, and more specifically Jerusalem itself, especially its Temple (George and George, pp. 121-24).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is only the tip of the iceberg. Further details are contained in my book about the mythology behind the Garden of Eden story, below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sources:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Joseph Campbell. *The Mythic Image.* New York: MJF Books, 1974, pp. 184-207.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mircea Eliade. *The Myth of the Eternal Return.* Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1991, pp. 12-17.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mircea Eliade and Lawrence Sullivan. “Center of the World,” *Encyclopedia of Religion,* vol. 3, pp. 166-71.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Arthur George and Elena George. *The Mythology of Eden.* Lanham, Maryland: Hamilton Books, 2014, pp. 100-24." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6412" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1487" RevisionGUID="d47321dd-42db-450a-b27a-d9ee22c55c0e" CreationDate="2016-03-08T21:39:01.137" UserId="1294" Text="When reading the Egyptian myths I was struck by their similarity to Greek myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This lead me to wonder whether any spirit/creature appears universally or nearly universally across many cultures myths. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6413" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1487" RevisionGUID="d47321dd-42db-450a-b27a-d9ee22c55c0e" CreationDate="2016-03-08T21:39:01.137" UserId="1294" Text="Universal creatures" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6414" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1487" RevisionGUID="d47321dd-42db-450a-b27a-d9ee22c55c0e" CreationDate="2016-03-08T21:39:01.137" UserId="1294" Text="|mythical-creatures|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6415" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1487" RevisionGUID="8de3822b-cb21-4f5c-bbe5-dbb72ddf6c28" CreationDate="2016-03-08T22:03:22.990" UserId="967" Comment="Title is vague" Text="Are there any universal creatures in all of the myth systems?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6417" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1487" RevisionGUID="a90f88aa-08f4-4194-a5b4-15412be51c2c" CreationDate="2016-03-08T22:06:00.950" UserId="1294" Comment="added 36 characters in body" Text="When reading the Egyptian myths I was struck by their similarity to Greek myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This lead me to wonder whether any non human creature (so no ghosts, giants or dwarfs) appears universally or nearly universally across many cultures myths. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6418" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1488" RevisionGUID="89643b0d-2d1f-4cfc-ae3e-4b71650b5638" CreationDate="2016-03-08T22:21:51.153" UserId="1283" Text="I've read some of the more well known ones like Izanagi and Izanami...Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, Susanoo, and Orochi... I mostly want to know about the Shinto side but Japanese Buddhism legends are good too. I know about Hotei/Budai on that end. Mostly, because I have to remind people that though he is a Buddha he's not Siddhartha Gautama. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, has anyone made like a family tree for the Shinto Kami? In most stories I read it says a lot about how or who they were birthed from. It would be cool to see it laid out :)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6419" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1488" RevisionGUID="89643b0d-2d1f-4cfc-ae3e-4b71650b5638" CreationDate="2016-03-08T22:21:51.153" UserId="1283" Text="What are some interesting Japanese legends or myths?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6420" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1488" RevisionGUID="89643b0d-2d1f-4cfc-ae3e-4b71650b5638" CreationDate="2016-03-08T22:21:51.153" UserId="1283" Text="|folklore|japanese|mythohistory|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6421" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1478" RevisionGUID="8ea76477-551c-4269-8ef2-4f0d313dbb6e" CreationDate="2016-03-08T22:43:16.503" UserId="467" Comment="deleted 24 characters in body" Text="This question needs to be answered from the perspective of the likely intent of the author and in light of what the term Eden meant in the times before and up to the period when the story was written (in my view probably 9th-7th centuries BCE, though perhaps somewhat later).&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;We must first recognize that, in the Eden story itself, the term Eden refers to the desolate/arid geographical region within which Yahweh first created the man and put him there, and only after that planted the garden (Gen 2.8: “a garden *in* Eden”). So looking simply and specifically for the paradise garden would be (so to speak) barking up the wrong tree. There is a Western Semitic root (*ʽdn*), used for example in Ugarit, meaning lush or luxuriant upon which the author may have drawn in deciding how to name the Garden, but this gives us nothing about the garden’s location. (If anything, it would imply Syria, which does not appear consistent with the description in Gen 2:10-14.) Looking to Mesopotamia is more fruitful.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Mesopotamia the term referred to a dry plain (Sumerian (*edin*) and Akkadian (*edinu*), including between rivers; the more attested term in Akkadian was *seru,* which was a translation of the same, pronounced as *seru* but written with almost the same Cuneiform sign as the Sumerian. Akkadian was still the *lingua franca* of the region, but scholars debate whether an educated scribe in Judah such as the author of the Eden story would have been familiar with this word; but he did properly use it to refer to an arid area.... In any event, this information, together with that provided by the author in Genesis 2.10-14, suggests a location generally within Mesopotamia, perhaps between the Tigris and Euphrates. Frankly, having reviewed the various attempts to be more precise, I've seen that they all have serious problems and that none of them has gained traction among scholars. So I don’t think we can be more precise than what I’ve described here, and more significantly I doubt that the author intended any greater precision; probably he was deliberately not specific: He said only that Eden was “in the East” and that the 4 rivers flowed out of there (Gen 2:8). But we don’t know where “there” is, i.e., the location from which they are said to flow. Identifying the names of the rivers only brings us to somewhere in Mesopotamia, which gets us no further than what I’ve mentioned above. The somewhat fashionable hypothesis of the garden of Eden as referring to a lush area that now lies under the Persian Gulf (inspired in part by the Dilmun myth) runs aground against the biblical text: (a) as mentioned, our author said that &quot;Eden&quot; is actually an hostile, arid geographical region; (b) the Hebrew word used for &quot;garden&quot; in the story (*gan*) means a fairly small, artificial garden (usually enclosed by walls), way too small to be a climactic area; and (c) our author said that the rivers split and flow *from* the garden in Eden, not *into* it as would be the case with the mouth of what is now the Persian Gulf.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think the description of the 4 rivers flowing from an unspecified point on Mesopotamian territory needs to be read mythologically, rather than as an attempt to be geographically specific. As mentioned, creation on earth began in a desolate Eden, signifying a  kind of primordial chaos (only desert rather than waters) onto which the order of creation was imposed. By having Yahweh form the first human and the first plants (i.e., the Garden) there, he made the Garden the center of creation and the original center of the earth, which makes it a holy place, which is why Yahweh had his presence there. It is a Center in the sense meant by Mircea Eliade and Joseph Campbell (Eliade and Sullivan; Eliade; Campbell), where primordial chaos was transformed into the order of creation, which is why it is sacred. The 4 rivers flowing from that spot symbolize the Garden as that Center, and also helps explain how the rest of the earth (originally barren  outside of the Garden) became fertile and full of life. The imagery of the Center is further enhanced by the 2 sacred trees being there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, I should mention that in choosing the term Eden the author may have been making a secondary allusion to Beth Eden mentioned elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible (Amos 1:5; 2 Kings 19:12; Isaiah 37:2). This was an Aramaic kingdom on the banks of the upper Euphrates in Syria (so no dry steppe here). Its name in Aramaic (*bit-adini*) means &quot;House of Eden,&quot; with *adini* being the family name of the ruling dynasty (cf. &quot;House of David&quot;). By the time the Eden story was written, Assyria had taken over Beth Eden, and was using it as a launching base from which to invade Syria-Palestine. Thus, the author may have been employing &quot;Eden,&quot; on the one hand, to allude to the military, cultural, and pagan religious threat coming from Assyria/eastern Syria at the time, while on the other hand as an ideal place (i.e., Israel, land of milk and honey) arising from within and being threatened by this surrounding hostile cultural and religious environment. (The Eden story was, after all, in significant part a polemic against &quot;foreign&quot; pagan religion.) From this perspective, Israel was viewed as the ideal Center of the world, and more specifically Jerusalem itself, especially its Temple (George and George, pp. 121-24).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is only the tip of the iceberg. Further details are contained in my book about the mythology behind the Garden of Eden story, below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sources:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Joseph Campbell. *The Mythic Image.* New York: MJF Books, 1974, pp. 184-207.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mircea Eliade. *The Myth of the Eternal Return.* Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1991, pp. 12-17.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mircea Eliade and Lawrence Sullivan. “Center of the World,” *Encyclopedia of Religion,* vol. 3, pp. 166-71.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Arthur George and Elena George. *The Mythology of Eden.* Lanham, Maryland: Hamilton Books, 2014, pp. 100-24." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6422" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1489" RevisionGUID="80647900-b146-4c82-8897-3c66f3f20aa6" CreationDate="2016-03-08T23:05:23.387" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="&gt; It has long been a popular fantasy among amateur students of myth that all peoples share the same stories. This is clearly an example of wishful thinking.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Alan Dundes][1])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Folklorists have developed these tools called [Motif Indexes][2]. I'm not quite sure what you mean by &quot;non human creature&quot;, but creatures like phoenix have entries in the index. A motif index would then list every culture that contains a myth/story about phoenix. **The key here is that there isn't a single example that we can point to where the motif is universal**, i.e. it is present in the stories of every culture known to mankind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So no, there isn't an example of a &quot;non human creature&quot; that &quot;appears universally or nearly universally across many cultures myths.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you're interested in the similarities and differences between the stories of different cultures, then I would recommend that you learn more about [motif indexes][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/4137664&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/1262/62" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6424" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1490" RevisionGUID="d470120f-d7c6-4829-931b-947c2796b683" CreationDate="2016-03-08T23:56:44.267" UserId="967" Text="Really, none. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both paintings show that Zeus led Europa away in the form of a bull.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only difference I can make between those paintings are the fact that the first one is only Europa is the only one, while the second, she is with her friends, being misled by Zeus." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6425" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1491" RevisionGUID="23eec283-dc4f-492b-aede-62ac095530ff" CreationDate="2016-03-09T01:44:37.420" UserId="398" Text="There is not a canonical answer to this. Helen's portrayal in the Greek and Roman sources presents a wide variety of different interpretations. Perhaps *most* canonical is Apollodorus' *Bibliotecha*. Unfortunately, we do not have this part of his work, though an epitome has survived. Here's what it says about Helen:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Menelaus, with five ships in all under his command, put in at Sunium, a headland of Attica; and being again driven thence by winds to Crete he drifted far away, and wandering up and down Libya, and Phoenicia, and Cyprus, and Egypt, he collected much treasure. And according to some, he discovered Helen at the court of Proteus, king of Egypt; for till then Menelaus had only a phantom of her made of clouds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Epitome* 6.29, trans. by Frazer&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A little background is necessary to understand where he got this idea:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But some say Hermes, in obedience to the will of Zeus, stole Helen and carried her to Egypt, and gave her to Proteus, king of the Egyptians, to guard, and that Alexander repaired to Troy with a phantom of Helen fashioned out of clouds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Epitome 3.3-5&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Helen, instead of actually being at Troy, is merely a copy. It's theorized that Zeus did this because she is his daughter by Leda, and later ideas that she is taken straightaway to Olympus instead of back to Sparta support this; moreover, her divine brother was made into a constellation, and Helen *was* worshiped as a goddess in Sparta in historical times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, Menelaus would not in fact mention Helen in his troubles getting to Egypt, because he did not have her yet. But the *Odyssey* really doesn't support this, which is why both passages are prefaced with &quot;according to some/some say.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Authors who do support this, though, include Stesichorus (seventh to sixth century), Herodotus, and Euripides (fifth century). In fact, Stesichorus might have made it up, perhaps based off the passage in the *Odyssey* you found confusing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Euripides does conflicting things with this information. In his *Trojan Women*, there is a strong implication that Helen is actually at Troy, and that Menelaus takes her away from there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(She and Hecuba argue about who is at fault, and while Menelaus sides with Hecuba, he disregards her advice to kill Helen on the spot, lest, Hecuba argues, Helen gets out of punishment by her feminine charms.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, Euripides wrote another work, his *Helen*, in which Hera, not Zeus, fashioned a phantom for Hermes to take to Egypt because she was angry with Paris for choosing Aphrodite as the [most beautiful of the goddess](http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/JudgementParis.html). Herodotus even says that when he was in Memphis, Egypt, Egyptian priests confirmed that Helen was there, though there was no phantom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, if Helen is in Egypt, as later authors indicated, she was found by Menelaus there. Otherwise we must assume that the author of the *Odyssey* just glossed over her presence." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6426" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="1488" RevisionGUID="6ec8239c-4d63-4857-8eb9-6cffd84c5b6c" CreationDate="2016-03-09T08:50:14.170" UserId="-1" Comment="105" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:62,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Hamlet&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;C. M. Weimer&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:967,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;bleh&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:91,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;congusbongus&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="6428" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1493" RevisionGUID="dac1277e-af03-47bb-8107-fe7407cd4bd7" CreationDate="2016-03-10T21:28:16.713" UserId="1301" Text="Trying to determine which creatures in the stories are based on German myth (i.e. things people actually believed in), and which were characters in cautionary tales or stories made up for entertainment (i.e. not believed in).  I figured it would be a shorter list to include the ones that *are* rather than the ones that aren't.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A good example of a Grimm tale featuring a creature from German myth is *Snow White* because it contains dwarfs, which were a thing Germans actually did believe existed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A good example of a Grimm tale featuring a creature made up for entertainment is *Hans My Hedgehog*, because I'm fairly certain Germans myth did not include weird, half-hedgehog children.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Again, I'm only looking for examples of the former category, not the latter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6429" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1493" RevisionGUID="dac1277e-af03-47bb-8107-fe7407cd4bd7" CreationDate="2016-03-10T21:28:16.713" UserId="1301" Text="Which creatures from Grimms' tales come directly from German myth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6430" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1493" RevisionGUID="dac1277e-af03-47bb-8107-fe7407cd4bd7" CreationDate="2016-03-10T21:28:16.713" UserId="1301" Text="|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6431" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1493" RevisionGUID="bfeacf5e-cbe9-4841-b7a0-0b59675516f5" CreationDate="2016-03-10T21:38:39.957" UserId="1301" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="Trying to determine which creatures in the stories are based on German myth (i.e. things people actually believed in), and which were characters in cautionary tales or stories made up for entertainment (i.e. not believed in).  I figured it would be a shorter list to include the ones that *are* rather than the ones that aren't.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A good example of a Grimm tale featuring a creature from German myth is *Snow White* because it contains dwarfs, which were a thing Germans actually did believe existed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A good example of a Grimm tale featuring a creature made up for entertainment is *Hans My Hedgehog*, because I'm fairly certain German myth did not include weird, half-hedgehog children.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Again, I'm only looking for examples of the former category, not the latter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6432" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1494" RevisionGUID="8aa12012-44c3-45e0-a093-3680a4fd1ae9" CreationDate="2016-03-10T22:24:40.670" UserId="967" Text="Tantalus, who fed the gods human meat, tried to trick them. Why?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6433" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1494" RevisionGUID="8aa12012-44c3-45e0-a093-3680a4fd1ae9" CreationDate="2016-03-10T22:24:40.670" UserId="967" Text="Why did Tantalus try to trick the gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6434" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1494" RevisionGUID="8aa12012-44c3-45e0-a093-3680a4fd1ae9" CreationDate="2016-03-10T22:24:40.670" UserId="967" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6435" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1495" RevisionGUID="aec70dce-378c-4e65-af52-0ac43c3389de" CreationDate="2016-03-10T23:02:55.983" UserId="1301" Text="According to this Wikipedia article about [Atreus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atreus) it was to test the omniscience of the gods.  He wanted to know if the gods would *know* it was human flesh.  Not only was it human flesh, it was the flesh of his son, Pelops." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6436" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1495" RevisionGUID="c7978184-5836-40a9-8651-fd80fd5229e9" CreationDate="2016-03-10T23:22:10.933" UserId="1301" Comment="added 362 characters in body" Text="According to this Wikipedia article about [Atreus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atreus) it was to test the omniscience of the gods.  He wanted to know if the gods would *know* it was human flesh.  Not only was it human flesh, it was the flesh of his son, Pelops.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This article on [&quot;Greek Myths &amp; Greek Mythology&quot;](http://www.greekmyths-greekmythology.com/the-myth-of-tantalus/) suggests that it was for one of two reasons, either to test their genius, a similar story to that in the Wikipedia article, or simply because he ran out of food to serve them.  Perhaps worth noting that this was *not* Tantalus's first offense. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6437" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1478" RevisionGUID="f4b28520-6145-400b-bc48-cee8bc302e95" CreationDate="2016-03-11T01:29:10.373" UserId="467" Comment="added 33 characters in body" Text="This question needs to be answered from the perspective of the likely intent of the author and in light of what the term Eden meant in the times before and up to the period when the story was written (in my view probably 9th-7th centuries BCE, though perhaps somewhat later).&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;We must first recognize that, in the Eden story itself, the term &quot;Eden&quot; refers to the desolate/arid geographical region within which Yahweh both (a) created the man and (b) planted the garden (Gen 2.8: “a garden *in* Eden”). So looking simply and specifically for a region that could be characterized by paradise garden would be (so to speak) barking up the wrong tree. There is a Western Semitic root (*ʽdn*), used for example in Ugarit, meaning lush or luxuriant upon which the author may have drawn in part when deciding how to name the Garden, but this gives us nothing about the garden’s location. (If anything, the linguistics would imply Syria, which does not appear consistent with the description in Gen 2:10-14.) Looking to Mesopotamia is more fruitful.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Mesopotamia the term referred to a dry plain (Sumerian (*edin*) and Akkadian (*edinu*), including between rivers; the more attested term in Akkadian was *seru,* which was a translation of the same, pronounced as *seru* but written with almost the same Cuneiform sign as the Sumerian. Akkadian was still the *lingua franca* of the region, but scholars debate whether an educated scribe in Judah such as the author of the Eden story would have been familiar with this word; but he did properly use it to refer to an arid area.... In any event, this information, together with that provided by the author in Genesis 2.10-14, suggests a location generally within Mesopotamia, perhaps between the Tigris and Euphrates. Frankly, having reviewed the various attempts to be more precise, I've seen that they all have serious problems and that none of them has gained traction among scholars. So I don’t think we can be more precise than what I’ve described here, and more significantly I doubt that the author intended any greater precision; probably he was deliberately not specific: He said only that Eden was “in the East” and that the 4 rivers flowed out of there (Gen 2:8). But we don’t know where “there” is, i.e., the location from which they are said to flow. Identifying the names of the rivers only brings us to somewhere in Mesopotamia, which gets us no further than what I’ve mentioned above. The somewhat fashionable hypothesis of the garden of Eden as referring to a lush area that now lies under the Persian Gulf (inspired in part by the Dilmun myth) runs aground against the biblical text: (a) as mentioned, our author said that &quot;Eden&quot; is actually an hostile, arid geographical region; (b) the Hebrew word used for &quot;garden&quot; in the story (*gan*) means a fairly small, artificial garden (usually enclosed by walls), way too small to be a climactic area; and (c) our author said that the rivers split and flow *from* the garden in Eden, not *into* it as would be the case with the mouth of what is now the Persian Gulf.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think the description of the 4 rivers flowing from an unspecified point on Mesopotamian territory needs to be read mythologically, rather than as an attempt to be geographically specific. As mentioned, creation on earth began in a desolate Eden, signifying a  kind of primordial chaos (only desert rather than waters) onto which the order of creation was imposed. By having Yahweh form the first human and the first plants (i.e., the Garden) there, he made the Garden the center of creation and the original center of the earth, which makes it a holy place, which is why Yahweh had his presence there. It is a Center in the sense meant by Mircea Eliade and Joseph Campbell (Eliade and Sullivan; Eliade; Campbell), where primordial chaos was transformed into the order of creation, which is why it is sacred. The 4 rivers flowing from that spot symbolize the Garden as that Center, and also helps explain how the rest of the earth (originally barren  outside of the Garden) became fertile and full of life. The imagery of the Center is further enhanced by the 2 sacred trees being there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, I should mention that in choosing the term Eden the author may have been making a secondary allusion to Beth Eden mentioned elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible (Amos 1:5; 2 Kings 19:12; Isaiah 37:2). This was an Aramaic kingdom on the banks of the upper Euphrates in Syria (so no dry steppe here). Its name in Aramaic (*bit-adini*) means &quot;House of Eden,&quot; with *adini* being the family name of the ruling dynasty (cf. &quot;House of David&quot;). By the time the Eden story was written, Assyria had taken over Beth Eden, and was using it as a launching base from which to invade Syria-Palestine. Thus, the author may have been employing &quot;Eden,&quot; on the one hand, to allude to the military, cultural, and pagan religious threat coming from Assyria/eastern Syria at the time, while on the other hand as an ideal place (i.e., Israel, land of milk and honey) arising from within and being threatened by this surrounding hostile cultural and religious environment. (The Eden story was, after all, in significant part a polemic against &quot;foreign&quot; pagan religion.) From this perspective, Israel was viewed as the ideal Center of the world, and more specifically Jerusalem itself, especially its Temple (George and George, pp. 121-24).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is only the tip of the iceberg. Further details are contained in my book about the mythology behind the Garden of Eden story, below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sources:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Joseph Campbell. *The Mythic Image.* New York: MJF Books, 1974, pp. 184-207.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mircea Eliade. *The Myth of the Eternal Return.* Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1991, pp. 12-17.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mircea Eliade and Lawrence Sullivan. “Center of the World,” *Encyclopedia of Religion,* vol. 3, pp. 166-71.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Arthur George and Elena George. *The Mythology of Eden.* Lanham, Maryland: Hamilton Books, 2014, pp. 100-24." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6440" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1496" RevisionGUID="521c8c54-987c-452b-a6bb-4b02ac586780" CreationDate="2016-03-11T09:12:46.550" UserId="1310" Text="I have seen many books and papers reference Athena breathing life into the man Prometheus molded out of clay, but I couldn't find any primary sources of this happening, and I couldn't find any good explanations. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hopefully, someone can help. Thank you!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6441" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1496" RevisionGUID="521c8c54-987c-452b-a6bb-4b02ac586780" CreationDate="2016-03-11T09:12:46.550" UserId="1310" Text="Why did Athena breathe life into the man Prometheus created?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6442" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1496" RevisionGUID="521c8c54-987c-452b-a6bb-4b02ac586780" CreationDate="2016-03-11T09:12:46.550" UserId="1310" Text="|greek|creation|athena|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6443" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="81" RevisionGUID="9cbb2c40-eb21-48b9-840f-76c03f253f9a" CreationDate="2016-03-11T11:54:37.527" UserId="36" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="##The [Minotaur][1] was a lone creature, the first and only of it's kind. The unfortunate result of a Greek God loosing his temper.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Shortly after King Minos (or [Minos The King][2]) ascended to the throne of the island of Crete, he began to pray to [Poseidon][3] for a sign of his right to sit on said throne. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Poseidon sent a snow-white bull, the [Cretan Bull][4], out of the sea as a gift to Minos and as proof that he was indeed worthy to be king, and in turn Minos promised he would sacrifice the bull in Posidean's name.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortuanlty, Minos' wife [Pasiphaë][5], took a liking to the bull and begged Minos to spare it. Minos did, and sacrificed a different bull in it's place.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortuatly again, Poseidon was not easily deceived and when he learned of Minos' treachery, he promptly cursed Pasiphaë with [zoophilia][6]...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_It get's creepy from here on..._&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;!Pasiphaë's zoophilic urges got the better of her but alas, she could not seduce the Cretan Bull. So she had a wooden bull built. Apparently a very realistic and attractive wooden bull. And proceeded to climb inside and wait for nature to take it's course. Sure enough this did the trick and soon the palace was blessed with the pitter-patter of cloven feet. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Minotaur, which they named Asterius, was an abomination. So with the help of [Daedalus][7], [The Labyrinth][8] was constructed. As Daedalus puts it, it was a : &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt;chamber that with its tangled windings perplexed the outward way&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Minos placed Asterius in the centre, and as he didn't want anyone to know about his odd step-son, he threw Daedalus and his son [Icarus][9] in too, but [they escaped][10].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And so the poor Minotaur languished in The Labyrinth alone, for the rest of his miserable days. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;...until [Theseus][11] paid him a [visit][12].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minotaur&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minos&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poseidon&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretan_Bull&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasipha%C3%AB&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoophilia&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daedalus&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labyrinth&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icarus&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.corbisimages.com/images/Corbis-42-18132270.jpg?size=67&amp;uid=2a711a1d-ee5d-484d-9114-6a39bdd52302&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theseus&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://slodive.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/simon-dominic-brewer/Theseus-and-the-Minotaur.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6445" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1488" RevisionGUID="2010d810-d2cc-431a-8959-5840c969b26f" CreationDate="2016-03-11T20:54:56.787" UserId="1283" Comment="for the sake of getting somewhere." Text="I've read some of the more well known ones like Izanagi and Izanami...Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, Susanoo, and Orochi... I mostly want to know about the Shinto side but Japanese Buddhism legends are good too. I know about Hotei/Budai on that end. Mostly, because I have to remind people that though he is a Buddha he's not Siddhartha Gautama.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Are there any sort of chief pantheon, a la the Olympians, in Japanese mythology? Who do they consist of?&quot; This question but you don't have to add in the former gods I've listed. Nothing fancy." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6446" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1497" RevisionGUID="f94cc29b-18d8-4361-ba27-a161880f6380" CreationDate="2016-03-11T22:37:17.497" UserId="967" Text="Athena never did.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;There was also an account, stating that Prometheus had created men out of earth and water, at the very beginning of the human race, or after the flood of Deucalion, when Zeus is said to have ordered him and Athena to make men out of the mud, and the winds to breathe life into them (Apollod. i. 7. § 1; Ov. Met. i. 81; Etym. Mag. s. v. Promêtheus). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[Theoi][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So she was the one creating them with Prometheus,, not breathing life into them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanPrometheus.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6448" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1488" RevisionGUID="acd4572e-725a-463f-a5fc-73b7d67285ad" CreationDate="2016-03-12T05:14:22.907" UserId="108" Comment="edited title" Text="Are there any sort of chief pantheon, a la the Olympians, in Japanese mythology? Who do they consist of?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6449" PostHistoryTypeId="11" PostId="1488" RevisionGUID="d9220c05-06c6-4c61-8449-d28480afc3b1" CreationDate="2016-03-12T05:14:26.503" UserId="108" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;C. M. Weimer&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:967,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;bleh&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:108,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Semaphore&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="6450" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1488" RevisionGUID="acd4572e-725a-463f-a5fc-73b7d67285ad" CreationDate="2016-03-12T05:14:22.907" UserId="108" Comment="edited title" Text="|gods|folklore|japanese|mythohistory|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6451" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1488" RevisionGUID="e12e0009-6a2a-4c12-b588-cbe674dadbb6" CreationDate="2016-03-12T05:37:22.583" UserId="108" Comment="edited title" Text="Are there any sort of chief pantheon in Japanese mythology? Who do they consist of?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6452" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1494" RevisionGUID="e8e90ec6-c898-4fa5-8f3d-0ae8d75792f4" CreationDate="2016-03-12T14:22:05.483" UserId="967" Comment="added 190 characters in body" Text="Tantalus, who was a king beloved of the gods, ruled over the kingdom of Tmolus. He hated his sons. He fed the gods human meat, specifically Pelops, his son, and tried to trick them. Later he was sent to Fields of Punishment for trying to trick them. Why?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6453" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1498" RevisionGUID="8469f60f-4785-4b0d-9d68-94c27182e913" CreationDate="2016-03-13T01:17:49.133" UserId="1314" Text="I have heard of the greek god Chaos (the manifestation of the void) and of the greek god Aither (the manifestation of the upper air that gods breathe most often) but I can't find reference to any deities that personify 'space' or 'the cosmos.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who is the god(s) of Space and The Cosmos, if there is any?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Specifically curious about greek, roman, norse, or egyptian gods)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6454" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1498" RevisionGUID="8469f60f-4785-4b0d-9d68-94c27182e913" CreationDate="2016-03-13T01:17:49.133" UserId="1314" Text="Was there ever a greek/roman god of 'space' or 'cosmos'?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6455" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1498" RevisionGUID="8469f60f-4785-4b0d-9d68-94c27182e913" CreationDate="2016-03-13T01:17:49.133" UserId="1314" Text="|greek|norse|roman|gods|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6456" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1499" RevisionGUID="29fcc2c1-96b1-44d2-bcc6-a3402c1aaddc" CreationDate="2016-03-13T21:14:23.050" UserId="1317" Text="*Oranos* (Roman *Uranus*) is the Greek sky god. You will find him at the beginning of Hesiod's *Theogony*. Wikipedia has [an extensive list][1] of sky gods, among whom you will find the Egyptian goddess Nut.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky_deity" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6458" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1498" RevisionGUID="6e05c18f-f688-4064-a118-4d20b9608fc1" CreationDate="2016-03-13T22:33:57.713" UserId="967" Comment="Title gives something contrary to the question." Text="Was there ever a god of 'space' or 'cosmos'?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6459" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1499" RevisionGUID="dde3ba3d-2050-4fe3-a734-add1826392fc" CreationDate="2016-03-13T22:36:20.127" UserId="1317" Comment="added 8 characters in body" Text="*Oranos* (Roman *Uranus*) is the Greek (night) sky god. You will find him at the beginning of Hesiod's *Theogony*. Wikipedia has [an extensive list][1] of sky gods, among whom you will find the Egyptian goddess Nut.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky_deity" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6460" PostHistoryTypeId="7" PostId="1498" RevisionGUID="2e48228b-4b60-4311-a6ea-c327476f9e6f" CreationDate="2016-03-14T05:29:50.923" UserId="398" Comment="Rollback to [8469f60f-4785-4b0d-9d68-94c27182e913]" Text="Was there ever a greek/roman god of 'space' or 'cosmos'?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6461" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1498" RevisionGUID="ab8b5f96-c375-412e-9ead-f3192b977fb2" CreationDate="2016-03-14T05:30:25.707" UserId="398" Comment="edited title" Text="Is there a Western (Greek, Roman, Egyptian, or Norse) god of the cosmos?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6462" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1498" RevisionGUID="7914f1ec-938f-414a-8001-69e9b25b8716" CreationDate="2016-03-14T14:20:23.860" UserId="967" Comment="Western is imortant" Text="I have heard of the greek god Chaos (the manifestation of the void) and of the greek god Aither (the manifestation of the upper air that gods breathe most often) but I can't find reference to any deities that personify 'space' or 'the cosmos.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who is the god(s) of Space and The Cosmos, if there is any?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Specifically curious about Western gods)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6463" PostHistoryTypeId="36" PostId="1501" RevisionGUID="deeb64d9-d847-4d1c-baca-8fd164ac924b" CreationDate="2016-03-14T15:27:09.217" UserId="-1" Comment="from http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/122087/are-certain-types-of-fairies-associated-with-specific-regions" />
  <row Id="6464" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1501" RevisionGUID="84b7a471-0a43-4c06-8084-71dee396c115" CreationDate="2016-03-14T11:52:57.303" UserDisplayName="user1324" Text="I am trying to decide on a location as the setting for a fairy-lore related MG fantasy novel. As I understand it, different places have differing oral traditions, so in turn many of the fairy tales we know today are associated with certain places or regions – for example (and not limited to fairies), we think of elves as celtic, trolls as Scandinavian, and vampires as Transsylvanian.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thinking of the UK, Ireland and Brittany and their fairies, are different regions associated with different types of fairies? Or are there regions that are more intimately related to fairies than others? Is there, so to speak, a &quot;map of celtic fairy lore&quot;?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know this information can be deduced from the sources given in folkloristic collections, but it would be a Ph.D.'s worth of work to extract that, so I admit I shy away from doing it. But maybe someone has done it, or it is something a native of the UK or France would know?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(I'm not asking about individual fairy tales that mention a specific place, such as the Eildon Hills in Thomas of Erceldoune, but about areas where certain types of stories are more prevalend.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6465" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1501" RevisionGUID="84b7a471-0a43-4c06-8084-71dee396c115" CreationDate="2016-03-14T11:52:57.303" UserDisplayName="user1324" Text="Are certain types of fairies associated with specific regions?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6466" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1501" RevisionGUID="84b7a471-0a43-4c06-8084-71dee396c115" CreationDate="2016-03-14T11:52:57.303" UserDisplayName="user1324" Text="|untagged|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6467" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1501" RevisionGUID="54f28643-65d2-44a7-bd8a-bf9f374f46da" CreationDate="2016-03-14T15:46:56.207" UserId="183" Comment="edited tags" Text="|celtic|fairies|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6468" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1502" RevisionGUID="74c48545-e846-470f-919d-74d6df30a2c1" CreationDate="2016-03-14T16:37:30.020" UserId="123" Text="Tragedy litteraly means a goat's song or ode. &#xD;&#xA;Is there any indication in mythology of why a goat song would be sad or dramatic?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as i know Pan, Faunus, Silvanus... all part goat deities are more in tune  to celebrating life to the hilt..." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6469" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1502" RevisionGUID="74c48545-e846-470f-919d-74d6df30a2c1" CreationDate="2016-03-14T16:37:30.020" UserId="123" Text="Tragedy: why a goat song?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6470" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1502" RevisionGUID="74c48545-e846-470f-919d-74d6df30a2c1" CreationDate="2016-03-14T16:37:30.020" UserId="123" Text="|greek|myth-identification|ethymology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6471" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1501" RevisionGUID="06659686-0df5-417a-a643-26eb0e802faf" CreationDate="2016-03-14T16:40:39.830" UserDisplayName="user1324" Comment="edited body" Text="I am trying to decide on a location as the setting for a fairy-lore related MG fantasy novel. As I understand it, different places have differing oral traditions, so in turn many of the fairy tales we know today are associated with certain places or regions – for example (and not limited to fairies), we think of elves as celtic, trolls as Scandinavian, and vampires as Transsylvanian.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thinking of the UK, Ireland and Brittany and their fairies, are different regions associated with different types of fairies? Or are there regions that are more intimately related to fairies than others? Is there, so to speak, a &quot;map of celtic fairy lore&quot;?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know this information can be deduced from the sources given in folkloristic collections, but it would be a Ph.D.'s worth of work to extract that, so I admit I shy away from doing it. But maybe someone has done it, or it is something a native of the UK or France would know?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(I'm not asking about individual fairy tales that mention a specific place, such as the Eildon Hills in Thomas of Erceldoune, but about areas where certain types of stories are more prevalent.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6472" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1503" RevisionGUID="78bf9103-ff93-487a-b0e2-b51228e3bcbd" CreationDate="2016-03-14T16:56:52.973" UserDisplayName="user1324" Text="The [German Wikipedia article on tragedy][1] explains this well:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The word &quot;tragedy&quot; stems from ancienc Greek theater and denotes the &quot;he-goat's song&quot;* or &quot;song for the he-goat's price&quot; (gr. *τραγωδία*, tragodía). In the Dinoysos cult, a &quot;Kosmos&quot; (gr. *κῶμος* kōmos) was staged, a procession with song, the participants masked and wearing the skin of a he-goat (gr. *τράγος* tragos), to impersonate the god himself or his accompanying satyrs. The theatrical form of tragedy developed from a myth sung in chorus, ... The choral parts of the theatrical dramas are a rudiment of this ancient form, the dialog parts a later, secondary addition. (my translation)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;No source is given on Wikipedia, but all this is in tune with what I remember from studying literature and learning of the origin of ancient Greek theatre.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*In German, *Bocksgesang* (lit. he-goat's song) is a figure of speech, meaning the wailing of the sacrifice.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trag%C3%B6die" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6473" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1503" RevisionGUID="51e547db-82f9-4c84-96b3-80c7cc0d790e" CreationDate="2016-03-14T17:06:56.930" UserDisplayName="user1324" Comment="added 970 characters in body" Text="The [German Wikipedia article on tragedy][1] explains this well:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The word &quot;tragedy&quot; stems from ancienc Greek theater and denotes the &quot;he-goat's song&quot; or &quot;song for the he-goat's price&quot; (gr. *τραγωδία*, tragodía). In the Dinoysos cult, a &quot;Kosmos&quot; (gr. *κῶμος* kōmos) was staged, a procession with song, the participants masked and wearing the skin of a he-goat (gr. *τράγος* tragos), to impersonate the god himself or his accompanying satyrs. The theatrical form of tragedy developed from a myth sung in chorus, ... The choral parts of the theatrical dramas are a rudiment of this ancient form, the dialog parts a later, secondary addition. (my translation)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;No source is given on Wikipedia, but all this is in tune with what I remember from studying literature and learning of the origin of ancient Greek theatre.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A tragedy, in ancient Greek theatre, is not &quot;sad&quot; in the contemporary non-theatre-related usage of the word (e.g. &quot;What a tragedy!&quot;). The Greek tragedy is defined by a fated conflict of the protagonist: the failure of the protagonist is unavoidable, because of the constellation he or she are placed in. Think of Oedipus: He did nothing wrong, it was his fate to kill his father and marry his mother. In contrast to a modern hero, there was nothing that he could to to avoid that fate. Modern heros on the other hand either succeed or fail because of their own deeds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ancient Greek comedy also derived from the Dionysian procession (see &quot;komos&quot; in my translation above). But while the tragedy took the mythic part of the procession and told stories of gods and men, the comedy took the festive part and became a satire and critique of (then) current politics and society. The ancient Greek comedy was more like today's political satire, than today's comedies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trag%C3%B6die" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6474" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1502" RevisionGUID="17ef5915-f3ee-4200-8d4d-3a9a8cbd19c2" CreationDate="2016-03-14T17:21:53.290" UserId="967" Comment="Grammar and stuff" Text="Tragedy literally means&#xD;&#xA;&gt;a goat's song or ode. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any indication in mythology of why a goat song would be sad or dramatic?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as I know, Pan, Faunus, Silvanus... all part goat deities are more in tune  to celebrating life to the hilt..." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6475" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1502" RevisionGUID="17ef5915-f3ee-4200-8d4d-3a9a8cbd19c2" CreationDate="2016-03-14T17:21:53.290" UserId="967" Comment="Grammar and stuff" Text="Why is tragedy a goat song?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6476" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1502" RevisionGUID="17ef5915-f3ee-4200-8d4d-3a9a8cbd19c2" CreationDate="2016-03-14T17:21:53.290" UserId="967" Comment="Grammar and stuff" Text="|greek|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6477" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1504" RevisionGUID="df73916f-34df-4adf-a96f-5dffe0a095cb" CreationDate="2016-03-14T17:37:47.727" UserDisplayName="user1324" Text="As pointed out by @Hamlet in their comments to your question, your definition of &quot;myth&quot; is not the one used by folklorists and other scholars. Your meaning would better fit the term &quot;superstition&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you read German, there is a ten volume [dictionary of German superstitions][1], a scholarly work of many thousands of pages, which collects the superstitions held by German people in the first half of the 20th century, many of them of course of older origin and in tune with the superstitions featured in the Grimms' tales. The superstitions in this book are often of a medical kind (e.g. certain plants heal certain illnesses) or ritualistic (e.g. harvesting – or not – at full moon or catching the bride's flower bouquet).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The belief in dwarves predates the existence of a German nation and is Germanic in origin. Many of the tales collected by the Brothers Grimm are known to other peoples as well, and are not exclusively German at all. Taking your example, there are versions of the tale that the Grimms published under the name of *Snow White* from all over the world. [This website][2] lists many of these stories, some of them from Africa. The page gives a book as source that collects these tales, if you are interested. Similarly, dwarves (of the Germanic kind) can be found in tales from all over Middle and Northern Europe, and are not exclusive to the tales of the Brothers Grimm. And most certainly, the majority of the German people no longer believed in dwarves at the time the Grimms collected their tales. They are not part of German superstition, but part of Germanic myth (in the folklorist meaning of the word).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, after all this rumination, what I think you are asking is which of the Grimms' tales contain references to Germanic myths. My answer would be: probably none of them, or only vaguely. Fairy tales are a different type of folktale than myths. Fairy tales are not tales about literal truths, but contain a moral in symbolized form. No one believed that there ever was a princess Snow White, but everyone (even today) believes in the underlying truth that diligence (exemplified in Snow White's service to the dwarves) and Snow White's other virtues will overcome evil in the end.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* * *&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If this is not what you are asking, please edit your question to clarify.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handw%C3%B6rterbuch_des_deutschen_Aberglaubens&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/sevendwarfs/other.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6479" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1493" RevisionGUID="71fd6a47-cb83-4cc6-bbb3-01ee498d6473" CreationDate="2016-03-14T18:14:47.650" UserId="1301" Comment="clarify what i'm asking" Text="Trying to determine which creatures in the stories are based on German myth (i.e. things people actually believed in), and which were characters in cautionary tales or stories made up for entertainment (i.e. not believed in).  I figured it would be a shorter list to include the ones that *are* rather than the ones that aren't.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am looking for examples of creatures that exist in the Grimm tales that are based on German myth.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A good example of such a creature would be a dwarf, because dwarfs exist both in Grimm tales and in German myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An example of a creature that exists in Grimms' tales but does not exist in German myth is Hans from *Hans my Hedgehog*.  As far as I know, weird, half-hedgehog creatures did not exist in German myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Again, I'm only asking for the former." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6482" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="17" RevisionGUID="8b09ef71-5767-4cfa-bd88-a9d4634d5af7" CreationDate="2016-03-14T21:11:17.267" UserId="-1" Comment="corrected spelling, corrected one part" Text="The word &quot;Titan&quot; is used to denote a class of mythological entities that existed before &quot;Gods&quot; were born and Titans are usually used to describe the creation of the world. All titans were born from Uranus (Sky) and Gaia (Earth), which were the first mythological creatures to be created when the world was formed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;After them, Cronus was born, the cunning, youngest and the most terrifying of his her children (Gaia's) and hated his strong father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Uranus and Gaia had three sets of children. There were the Hundred-handed ones, or Hekatonchieres, the Cyclopes, and the Titans. Uranus thought the Hundred-handed ones and the Cyclopes were hideous, so he threw them into Tartarus. Gaia did not appreciate this and told Cronus to kill Uranus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All mythological creatures of that generation are called Titans. Gods are the children of the Titans. Specifically, Zeus was born from Cronus and Rea. Since Cronus feared that some time his childrens would try to seize power, he would eat them, but Rea managed to save Zeus and he tried to seize power when he grew up. The series of events that followed is known as *Titanomachy* (battle of the Titans), in which the Gods defeated the Titans and became the kings of the world." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6483" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="17" RevisionGUID="8b09ef71-5767-4cfa-bd88-a9d4634d5af7" CreationDate="2016-03-14T21:11:17.267" Comment="Proposed by anonymous approved by 967, 398 edit id of 311" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6484" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1498" RevisionGUID="22a49357-4052-4e90-b8f2-383fb370b393" CreationDate="2016-03-14T23:58:38.453" UserId="967" Comment="commas, " Text="I have heard of the Greek god, Chaos (the manifestation of the void), and of the Greek god Aither, (the manifestation of the upper air that gods breathe most often), but I can't find reference to any deities that personify 'space' or 'the cosmos.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who is the Western god(s) of Space and The Cosmos, if there is any?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6485" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1506" RevisionGUID="a43ceb14-09ed-4b7f-a551-13f418baaf69" CreationDate="2016-03-15T02:57:25.633" UserId="1329" Text="I would prefer to have a date estimating what time period the particular creation story was created." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6486" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1506" RevisionGUID="a43ceb14-09ed-4b7f-a551-13f418baaf69" CreationDate="2016-03-15T02:57:25.633" UserId="1329" Text="What are the different creation stories of ancient egypt?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6487" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1506" RevisionGUID="a43ceb14-09ed-4b7f-a551-13f418baaf69" CreationDate="2016-03-15T02:57:25.633" UserId="1329" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6488" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1507" RevisionGUID="9a4a916e-3522-4fea-8c35-4bdb9084116b" CreationDate="2016-03-15T03:34:34.407" UserId="95" Text="For Egyptian, you'd have several choices. Going from the largest (at least in the Heliopolitian cosmology):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nuun (Nun) is the cosmic ocean that our universe is a bubble in:&#xD;&#xA;https://henadology.wordpress.com/theology/netjeru/nun/&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Atum includes the concept of &quot;Completeness&quot;. In a sense He/She would be related to the universe we know, and precipitated himself/herself out of the Nuun.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Shu and Tefnut would be next- Shu having a complex set of associations including emptiness and light, and Tefnut with moisture (and another set of associations).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From those two came Geb- associated with Earth, and Nut with sky. The Nuun also passed underneath the Earth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The above is a gross simplification, especially when you mix in all the other Egyptian creation stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Several of the Greek philosophers talked about a spherical Earth: they noticed that you could see stars in the Southern Egyptian sky that were invisible in Greece, the reverse being true for Northern stars in Greece. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6489" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1508" RevisionGUID="51206570-0f58-4407-848b-104bc948d379" CreationDate="2016-03-15T08:07:51.170" UserId="1319" Text="Zeus didn't have his head chopped off, but one could argue that the damage from having an adult armored female inside his head, which was removed by cracking open his skull should be equally lethal or incapacitating. Yet all he felt was a headache.[1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]:http://www.greekmythology.com/Myths/The_Myths/Birth_of_Athena/birth_of_athena.html&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6490" PostHistoryTypeId="36" PostId="1509" RevisionGUID="521ae80f-31a4-48a8-a939-bf6219f8fa74" CreationDate="2016-03-15T15:48:14.150" UserId="-1" Comment="from http://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/38081/who-are-the-little-people-who-clean-in-exchange-for-a-saucer-of-milk" />
  <row Id="6491" PostHistoryTypeId="36" PostId="1510" RevisionGUID="60468a43-c402-45d8-95b0-1c65ca0f3d70" CreationDate="2016-03-15T15:48:14.150" UserId="-1" Comment="from http://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/38081/who-are-the-little-people-who-clean-in-exchange-for-a-saucer-of-milk/38082#38082" />
  <row Id="6492" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1510" RevisionGUID="8ace7c0f-0778-4608-95f2-bfbe1239c3a4" CreationDate="2016-03-15T04:13:07.233" UserDisplayName="MichaelS" Text="From a Google books preview of *[The Folklore of Discworld](https://books.google.com/books?id=8JDNQ6P4XZgC&amp;pg=PA88&amp;lpg=PA88&amp;dq=terry+pratchett+creatures+like+house+elves&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=sqIecgngA0&amp;sig=UwQkqHJyvbSV-hd-k_n3O5uYM-U&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwj6naT75cHLAhUBFmMKHfs5AZgQ6AEIQjAH#v=onepage&amp;q=terry%20pratchett%20creatures%20like%20house%20elves&amp;f=false)*, in the chapter *The Elves* (the Wikipedia page for Nisse redirects to Tomte so I just bolded it):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There was even one type, the [house-elves](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_creatures_in_Harry_Potter#House-elves), whom humans welcomed. The English called them [hobs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hob_%28folklore%29), [pixies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixie) or [pucks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puck_%28mythology%29), the Scots [brownies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownie_%28folklore%29), the Scandinavians **nisses** and [tomtes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomte). These would actually live in a farm and bring it luck; they would help with harvesting, tend the animals, even do the housework, in exchange for an occasional bowl of milk or porridge - provided nobody spied on them or laughed at them. Russian country folk said there were several on each farm; the most important one lived behind the stove, others guarded the barn, the bath-house, the henhouse, and so on. On the Discworld, only the Wee Free Men have ever done such a favour for humans, and then only once, in the very special circumstances created by their bond with Tiffany Aching. Their reward was Special Sheep Liniment, which smells suspiciously like whisky.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that they apparently weren't *actually* little in Discworld:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Another sign that people in Europe were forgetting the true nature of elves, and no longer took them seriously, is that they so often thought of them as *small*. The Little People, the Wee Folk. Some people said they were about the size of a rabbit; others, that of a six-year-old child...." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6493" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1509" RevisionGUID="7b8a2eea-e9ef-480e-a757-cf347b3e6bbc" CreationDate="2016-03-15T03:45:12.477" UserDisplayName="LikeATiger" Text="Terry Pratchett has referenced them in several works.  I think other authors have too.  I've googled, to no real avail.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Please, BrainsTrust, give (speculative) detail!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In my world, they first have to &quot;steal&quot; the instructions from manuals, the back of packets, etc. before they can do any of their work, which mystifies the Housedwellers they've attached themselves to.  Possibly they 'emigrated' with an Irish or Scottish family, but given how little they have to do now they've decided to expand to the house next door." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6494" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1509" RevisionGUID="7b8a2eea-e9ef-480e-a757-cf347b3e6bbc" CreationDate="2016-03-15T03:45:12.477" UserDisplayName="LikeATiger" Text="Who are the little people who clean in exchange for a saucer of milk?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6495" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1509" RevisionGUID="7b8a2eea-e9ef-480e-a757-cf347b3e6bbc" CreationDate="2016-03-15T03:45:12.477" UserDisplayName="LikeATiger" Text="|untagged|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6496" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1509" RevisionGUID="aac26fcd-0a54-4b71-ac0f-e2283bf92459" CreationDate="2016-03-15T16:41:42.490" UserId="967" Comment="Worldbuilding-Myth" Text="Terry Pratchett has referenced them in several works.  I think other authors have too.  I've googled, to no real avail.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They first have to &quot;steal&quot; the instructions from manuals, the back of packets, etc. before they can do any of their work, which mystifies the Housedwellers they've attached themselves to.  Possibly they 'emigrated' with an Irish or Scottish family, but given how little they have to do now they've decided to expand to the house next door." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6497" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1509" RevisionGUID="aac26fcd-0a54-4b71-ac0f-e2283bf92459" CreationDate="2016-03-15T16:41:42.490" UserId="967" Comment="Worldbuilding-Myth" Text="|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6498" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1508" RevisionGUID="35421f4f-5ffb-4e78-9c58-686d2d2e9f6d" CreationDate="2016-03-15T16:46:53.090" UserId="967" Comment="source." Text="[From Here][1],&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus didn't have his head chopped off, but one could argue that the damage from having an adult armored female inside his head, which was removed by cracking open his skull should be equally lethal or incapacitating. Yet all he felt was a headache.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.greekmythology.com/Myths/The_Myths/Birth_of_Athena/birth_of_athena.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6499" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1511" RevisionGUID="b504e6fa-1246-4200-b397-0041c8f0cbbb" CreationDate="2016-03-15T19:45:33.453" UserId="201" Text="The Encyclopedia Mythica at http://www.pantheon.org/ has geographical sections. The &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.pantheon.org/areas/mythology/europe/celtic/articles.html&quot;&gt;Celtic section&lt;/a&gt; is probably a good place to start. It's the reverse of your original question, in that it lists many fairies and you have to click to see where each one might be associated with, but that might give you some general ideas and you can spread out your research from there. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6500" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1512" RevisionGUID="f5e28a50-19d5-41d8-bf03-b3f7afc507bd" CreationDate="2016-03-16T03:41:22.477" UserId="95" Text="One thing to remember is that most of the Egyptian creation stories aren't in a nice, neat source. In many cases, they're pieced together from funerary texts, magico-religious sources (spells would link the magician to a similar mythological act), and even 'mythogical manuals' like the Tebtunis and Delta books, which give many different versions of the same story, with different deities and variant actions. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Given that, we have the Heliopolitan cycle, which has Atum precipitating him/herself out of the formless Nuun, being bored because there wasn't anything else, masturbating, and bringing forth Shu and Tefnut. Shu and Tefnut have Geb and Nut as children, and Geb and Nut have the famous siblings Osiris, Isis, Nephthys (Nebt-Het), Set, and (sometimes another form of Horus-who-wasn't-a-child-of-Isis). There are also texts about the gods being made from the sweat of Atum (etc) and humans, male and female, produced from his tears.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's the Memphis cycle, which involves Ptah using speech to bring about the universe. There are a lot of variations of this. A version is also preserved on the Shabaka Stone in the British Museum. Shabaka, one of the Nubian pharaohs, (25th Dynasty) ordered it made based on a 'worm-eaten papyrus'. Unfortunately, the stone was turned into a millstone at some point, with a hole punched in the center.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Hermopolitan story involves the Ogdoad- 4 male frog gods and 4 female snake goddesses, who cause the primal bit of land to emerge from the Nuun. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Amun, who was one of the Ogdoad also has a creation story centered around him. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other stories include Geb being in the form of a goose and laying a cosmic egg on the primal mound of land. One about Ra emerging from the bud of the first water lily (there's a statue from Tut's tomb that references this). And the goddess Neith (Nit, Net) created the world by differentiating the land from the waters, again from the undifferentiated Nuun. In some versions, the goddess Mehet-Weret 'Great Flood' is involved with Neith's story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sometimes more than one of these cycles is mentioned in the same text, so they weren't always exclusive of each other." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6501" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1437" RevisionGUID="b2c52c14-58c0-4b0b-a262-0ae54d6711ab" CreationDate="2016-03-16T10:12:04.627" UserId="1335" Comment="Fixed a gender mistake in the title. " Text="What happened if a god or goddess had his/her head cut off?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6502" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1437" RevisionGUID="b2c52c14-58c0-4b0b-a262-0ae54d6711ab" CreationDate="2016-03-16T10:12:04.627" Comment="Proposed by 1335 approved by 398, 108 edit id of 312" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6503" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1508" RevisionGUID="4907add2-fb64-4929-a364-d1ab2c642885" CreationDate="2016-03-16T11:14:52.993" UserId="1319" Comment="Added a quote from sacred texts with the translation of her birth's hymn" Text="[From Here][1],&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus didn't have his head chopped off, but one could argue that the damage from having an adult armored female inside his head, which was removed by cracking open his skull should be equally lethal or incapacitating. Yet all he felt was a headache.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[From Sacred Texts][2],&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Born from his sacred head, in battle-array ready dight,&#xD;&#xA;Golden, all glistering. Fear took hold of them all at the sight--&#xD;&#xA;Them, the Immortals; but she, before Zeus of the Ægis-shield,&#xD;&#xA;Burst and flashed and leaped in birth from the deathless head,&#xD;&#xA;Shaking a sharp-edged spear.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.greekmythology.com/Myths/The_Myths/Birth_of_Athena/birth_of_athena.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[2]:http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/mgr/mgr06.htm&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6505" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1513" RevisionGUID="be646d3e-fa0a-4edc-a86a-dc8f9ad95583" CreationDate="2016-03-17T11:59:29.150" UserId="1342" Text="In English they are normally known as Brownies. I could write a bunch about them but wikipedia covers it pretty well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownie_(folklore)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A brownie/brounie or urisk (Lowland Scots) or brùnaidh, ùruisg, or gruagach (Scottish Gaelic) is a legendary creature popular in folklore around Scotland and England (especially the north, though more commonly hobs have this role). It is the Scottish and Northern English counterpart of the Scandinavian tomte, the Slavic domovoi and the German Heinzelmännchen.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In 1703, John Brand wrote in his description of Shetland (which he called &quot;Zetland&quot;) that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Not above forty or fifty years ago, every family had a brownie, or evil spirit, so called, which served them, to which they gave a sacrifice for his service; as when they churned their milk, they took a part thereof, and sprinkled every corner of the house with it, for Brownie’s use; likewise, when they brewed, they had a stone which they called &quot;Brownie’s stane&quot;, wherein there was a little hole into which they poured some wort for a sacrifice to Brownie. They also had some stacks of corn, which they called Brownie’s Stacks, which, though they were not bound with straw ropes, or in any way fenced as other stacks used to be, yet the greatest storm of wind was not able to blow away straw off them." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6508" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1516" RevisionGUID="98701d51-acba-4b1f-b6d1-d332f779e07e" CreationDate="2016-03-17T21:28:03.033" UserId="1347" Text="Yes, but this is ancient Greece, they probably didn't feel the need to complicate things in the myths. and a lot of the versions I read said half the year, and fall and spring were just another step of demeter's mood, realizing her daughter was leaving, fall, and awaiting her return, spring. but all in all, hot and cold, summer and spring." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6509" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1516" RevisionGUID="3e7cb5e7-0a4b-423b-9419-b498e1834bf5" CreationDate="2016-03-17T21:48:30.290" UserId="967" Comment="Usage" Text="Yes, but this is ancient Greece, they probably didn't feel the need to complicate things in the myths. A lot of the versions I read said half the year, and fall and spring were just another step of Demeter's mood, realizing her daughter was leaving, fall, and awaiting her return, spring. But all in all, hot and cold, summer and spring." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6510" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1517" RevisionGUID="51399124-637b-421c-9e43-3058689b4a9a" CreationDate="2016-03-17T21:50:26.490" UserId="1347" Text="No, he was not. Zeus was the only god not to be eaten by Kronos, and as for the trident, Hades has his helm of darkness, and zeus has his lightning bolts." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6511" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1517" RevisionGUID="ab58a8ba-50f0-4cb2-9aff-d5f7693e12a9" CreationDate="2016-03-17T21:53:30.090" UserId="967" Comment="Clarification" Text="No, he was not. Zeus was the only god not to be eaten by Kronos, and as for Poseidon having the trident, Hades has his helm of darkness, and Zeus has his lightning bolts." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6512" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1516" RevisionGUID="3117028b-a540-41cf-bc71-92a278592718" CreationDate="2016-03-17T21:56:38.180" UserId="1347" Comment="added 131 characters in body" Text="Yes, but this is ancient Greece, they probably didn't feel the need to complicate things in the myths. A lot of the versions I read said half the year, and fall and spring were just another step of Demeter's mood, realizing her daughter was leaving, fall, and awaiting her return, spring. But all in all, hot and cold, summer and spring.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Classic Mythology on infoplease.com, Rhea, the mother of the gods suggested six months, no seasons were mentioned." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6513" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1517" RevisionGUID="2096593d-9bcb-4c6d-8e73-2dc7b5205f34" CreationDate="2016-03-17T21:58:44.273" UserId="1347" Comment="added 76 characters in body" Text="No, he was not. Zeus was the only god not to be eaten by Kronos, and therefore had to defeat him alone, and was crowned king of the gods for it. As for Poseidon having the trident, Hades has his helm of darkness, and Zeus has his lightning bolts." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6514" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1518" RevisionGUID="2e954db7-b379-47d5-ab58-9fb0e6bbb795" CreationDate="2016-03-17T22:07:33.197" UserId="1347" Text="It would cause them a great deal of pain i think, but the gods are immortal unless all the stand for is lost. I would likely work just like it did with prometheus, it would just grow back. Granted Prometeus just lost his liver every day, not his head. Also, Zeus had his skull split open to get rid of the headache that was Athena, and that worked out fine." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6515" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1518" RevisionGUID="939e49d3-7973-4c88-b5b2-c5912b3821d3" CreationDate="2016-03-17T22:12:49.357" UserId="967" Comment="Usage " Text="It would cause them pain, but the gods are immortal. It would likely work just like it did with Prometheus, it would just grow back. Granted, Prometheus just lost his liver every day, not his head. Also, Zeus had his skull split open to get rid of the headache that was Athena, and that worked out fine." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6519" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1519" RevisionGUID="b80b6c7f-72f0-4c1a-8f1b-84b367d14b95" CreationDate="2016-03-18T01:49:39.847" UserId="1122" Text="Zeus, for the most part, seems to be represented as the head of the gods in most cases. For example:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - He was the only one not eaten by Kronos, and managed to save his siblings&#xD;&#xA; - He was ruler of Olympus, home of the gods&#xD;&#xA; - Many of the heroes and kings mentioned in mythology are his children. This would include Perseus, Tantalus, Minos, etc (see the wikipedia page for Zeus for more). In fact, four of the twelve gods of Olympus are his children- Athena, Hephaestus, Ares, and Dionysus.&#xD;&#xA; - Being ruler of the sky pretty much cinches him as the ruler. In ancient Greece, the sky was always above you, huge, unreachable, and full of mysterious pwers they didn't understand. It would make sense if their chief deity was the controller of all that.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;BUT&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although Zeus is generally portrayed as king god, remember, there is no &quot;set in stone&quot; verion of the myth. Since the Bronze Age, they were generally told orally from one person to another, each embellishing and carving it to their own liking. The version of the myths as most people today know them were described (and, importantly, written down) by authors such as Ovid, Homer,and Hesoid. While it is likely that their version of the myths was similar to everyone else's, there is no reason to believe that everything had to be exactly as we know it. A lot can change in a few thousand years! Sure, a thing like &quot;who's chief of the gods&quot; is a mighty thing to change, but as you mentioned, it would actually make sense for Poseidon to be the chief deity, even if Zeus was technically king. Here's why:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The Greeks (and the Romans, too, for that matter) lived on the Mediterranean. A map of their world looked something like this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/mRvKN.png&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most of their world, if you notice, was ocean, or more specifically, Oceanus, the personification of the sea that supposedly surrounded the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - For the most part, Greece was a bunch of islands with some annoying mountains here and there. The sea was a huge part of their lives, whether they wanted it to be or not.&#xD;&#xA; - In fact, the sea would probably be as mysterious as the sky to them. They wouldn't know about currents, or how storms worked, or about how come there were tides. There's only so much land-based weather could do the Greeks. They are not really in a region prone to tornadoes or anything like that. However, storms on the ocean were probably more or less normal- and much more powerful.&#xD;&#xA; - And who ruled pver this massive, dangerous, all-powerful sea? Poseidon. As if that wasn't enough, he was also given the title of Earthshaker, attributing even more power and destruction to him.&#xD;&#xA; - Much like Zeus,many of his children were significant in mythology, including Bellerophon, Charybodis, and Proteus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From all this, it would make sense that the ancient people favored Poseidon over Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that I didn't metion the trident. Mainly, this is because I don't really see this as a piece of evidence. Hades, the god of the underworld, afterall, has his own bident (like a trident but with two prongs). I don't recall Zeus having one, though, so maybe this is what your friends were getting at, but it must also be considered that he has lightning, which might count in the same category, I guess." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6525" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1522" RevisionGUID="9f8c2423-5ece-4064-9f11-62f3882bb438" CreationDate="2016-03-18T19:49:41.357" UserId="123" Text="I am no expert but I think that while some are geographical, most are based on pre-existing myths.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most Celtic faeries are linked to Greco-roman nature spirits and gods. For instance La Dame du Lac is probably a type of naiad or limnade. The Lares gave all domestic fae and other faeries. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Local legends, like La Bête de Gèvaudan, one of a kind monster in a specific area, was generalized into the lycanthropy desease and became international as the werewolf legend. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia has a good site for nymphs. While they are female by definition, just think of them as genderless nature spirits and you have most faeries.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;:&#xD;&#xA;•	Land nymphs&#xD;&#xA;•	Alseides (glens, groves)&#xD;&#xA;•	Auloniades (pastures)&#xD;&#xA;•	Leimakides or Leimonides (meadows)&#xD;&#xA;•	Napaeae (mountain valleys, glens)&#xD;&#xA;•	Oreads (mountains, grottoes), also Orodemniades&#xD;&#xA;•	Wood and plant nymphs&#xD;&#xA;•	Anthousai (flowers)&#xD;&#xA;•	Dryades (trees)&#xD;&#xA;•	Hamadryades or Hadryades&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nymph&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For instance for Welsh fae, you have:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;:&#xD;&#xA;1.	the ellyllon, or the elves;&#xD;&#xA;2.	the coblynau, or the mine fairies;&#xD;&#xA;3.	the bwbachod, or the household fairies;&#xD;&#xA;4.	the gwragedd annwn, or the fairies of the lakes and streams;&#xD;&#xA;5.	the gwyllion, or the mountain fairies.&#xD;&#xA;http://www.timelessmyths.com/celtic/faeries.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can see a clear correlation between that and nymphs and Lares.  Although they are international, if you just want to give it a taste of a specific culture, just use words used by that culture for nature spirits.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6526" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1522" RevisionGUID="4b94172c-927a-4968-b660-96437df72fd4" CreationDate="2016-03-18T19:55:41.573" UserId="123" Comment="added 66 characters in body" Text="I am no expert but I think that while some are geographical, most are based on pre-existing myths.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most Celtic faeries are linked to Greco-roman nature spirits and gods. For instance La Dame du Lac is probably a type of Naiad or Limnade. The Lares gave all domestic fae and other faeries. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Local legends, like La Bête de Gèvaudan, one of a kind monster in a specific area, was generalized into the lycanthropy desease and became international as the werewolf legend (though there are some possible mentions in Greco-Roman cultures). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia has a good site for nymphs. While they are female by definition, just think of them as genderless nature spirits and you have most faeries.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;:&#xD;&#xA;•	Land nymphs&#xD;&#xA;•	Alseides (glens, groves)&#xD;&#xA;•	Auloniades (pastures)&#xD;&#xA;•	Leimakides or Leimonides (meadows)&#xD;&#xA;•	Napaeae (mountain valleys, glens)&#xD;&#xA;•	Oreads (mountains, grottoes), also Orodemniades&#xD;&#xA;•	Wood and plant nymphs&#xD;&#xA;•	Anthousai (flowers)&#xD;&#xA;•	Dryades (trees)&#xD;&#xA;•	Hamadryades or Hadryades&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nymph&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For instance for Welsh fae, you have:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;:&#xD;&#xA;1.	the ellyllon, or the elves;&#xD;&#xA;2.	the coblynau, or the mine fairies;&#xD;&#xA;3.	the bwbachod, or the household fairies;&#xD;&#xA;4.	the gwragedd annwn, or the fairies of the lakes and streams;&#xD;&#xA;5.	the gwyllion, or the mountain fairies.&#xD;&#xA;http://www.timelessmyths.com/celtic/faeries.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can see a clear correlation between that and nymphs and Lares.  Although they are international, if you just want to give it a taste of a specific culture, just use words used by that culture for nature spirits.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6527" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1523" RevisionGUID="97f8ea81-f02e-4596-81ad-8a5c86f87e08" CreationDate="2016-03-18T20:14:07.963" UserId="123" Text="I remember reading about a mythic battle between the forces of the moon and the sun.&#xD;&#xA;Not battles between Sun and Moon but war between armies of the sun and of the moon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of them, the sun possibly, won. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The myth might have been from India, Persia or Babylonia. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am interested in the origin of the myth and if there are similar myths in other cultures? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6528" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1523" RevisionGUID="97f8ea81-f02e-4596-81ad-8a5c86f87e08" CreationDate="2016-03-18T20:14:07.963" UserId="123" Text="Battle between the Sun and the Moon forces?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6529" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1523" RevisionGUID="97f8ea81-f02e-4596-81ad-8a5c86f87e08" CreationDate="2016-03-18T20:14:07.963" UserId="123" Text="|comparative|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6530" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1522" RevisionGUID="9385324a-4452-46d7-9d8e-2a7e1d712de7" CreationDate="2016-03-18T21:08:14.840" UserId="123" Comment="added 348 characters in body" Text="I am no expert but I think that while some are geographical, most are based on pre-existing myths.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most Celtic faeries are linked to Greco-roman nature spirits and gods. For instance La Dame du Lac is probably a type of Naiad or Limnade. The Lares gave all domestic fae and other faeries. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Local legends, like La Bête de Gèvaudan, one of a kind monster in a specific area, was generalized into the lycanthropy desease and became international as the werewolf legend (though there are some possible mentions in Greco-Roman cultures). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia has a good site for nymphs. While they are female by definition, just think of them as genderless nature spirits and you have most faeries.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;:&#xD;&#xA;•	Land nymphs&#xD;&#xA;•	Alseides (glens, groves)&#xD;&#xA;•	Auloniades (pastures)&#xD;&#xA;•	Leimakides or Leimonides (meadows)&#xD;&#xA;•	Napaeae (mountain valleys, glens)&#xD;&#xA;•	Oreads (mountains, grottoes), also Orodemniades&#xD;&#xA;•	Wood and plant nymphs&#xD;&#xA;•	Anthousai (flowers)&#xD;&#xA;•	Dryades (trees)&#xD;&#xA;•	Hamadryades or Hadryades&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nymph&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For instance for Welsh fae, you have:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;:&#xD;&#xA;1.	the ellyllon, or the elves;&#xD;&#xA;2.	the coblynau, or the mine fairies;&#xD;&#xA;3.	the bwbachod, or the household fairies;&#xD;&#xA;4.	the gwragedd annwn, or the fairies of the lakes and streams;&#xD;&#xA;5.	the gwyllion, or the mountain fairies.&#xD;&#xA;http://www.timelessmyths.com/celtic/faeries.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can see a clear correlation between that and nymphs and Lares. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You mention banshee and pooka, they are linked to more specialized Lares, the Manes (Lares Di Inferi). For Manes see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manes&#xD;&#xA;For Banshees i found a book citation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;:&#xD;&#xA;M. A. Lefevre shows that the Roman Lares, so frequently compared to house-haunting fairies, are in reality quite like the Gaelic Banshee… https://books.google.co.ma/books?id=awR_U5Rs2ikC&amp;pg=PT729&amp;lpg=PT729&amp;dq=banshee+lares&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=ZioxW1klPJ&amp;sig=Gk9Rb2YcoEZ1ph-eQ7v3IlJldWE&amp;hl=fr&amp;sa=X&amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;q=banshee%20lares&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although they are global, if you just want to give it the flavor of a specific culture, just use words used by that culture for various nature spirits.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6531" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1522" RevisionGUID="de33423b-a663-4f5f-a8b1-8d4870fa4402" CreationDate="2016-03-18T21:17:59.777" UserId="123" Comment="added 82 characters in body" Text="I am no expert but I think that while some are geographical, most are based on pre-existing myths.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most Celtic faeries are linked to Greco-roman nature spirits and gods. For instance La Dame du Lac is probably a type of Naiad or Limnade. The Lares gave all domestic fae and other faeries. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Local legends, like La Bête de Gèvaudan, one of a kind monster in a specific area, was generalized into the lycanthropy desease and became international as the werewolf legend (though there are some possible mentions in Greco-Roman cultures). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia has a good site for nymphs. While they are female by definition, just think of them as genderless nature spirits and you have most faeries.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;:&#xD;&#xA;•	Land nymphs&#xD;&#xA;•	Alseides (glens, groves)&#xD;&#xA;•	Auloniades (pastures)&#xD;&#xA;•	Leimakides or Leimonides (meadows)&#xD;&#xA;•	Napaeae (mountain valleys, glens)&#xD;&#xA;•	Oreads (mountains, grottoes), also Orodemniades&#xD;&#xA;•	Wood and plant nymphs&#xD;&#xA;•	Anthousai (flowers)&#xD;&#xA;•	Dryades (trees)&#xD;&#xA;•	Hamadryades or Hadryades&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nymph&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For instance for Welsh fae, you have:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;:&#xD;&#xA;1.	the ellyllon, or the elves;&#xD;&#xA;2.	the coblynau, or the mine fairies;&#xD;&#xA;3.	the bwbachod, or the household fairies;&#xD;&#xA;4.	the gwragedd annwn, or the fairies of the lakes and streams;&#xD;&#xA;5.	the gwyllion, or the mountain fairies.&#xD;&#xA;http://www.timelessmyths.com/celtic/faeries.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can see a clear correlation between that and nymphs and Lares. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You mention banshee and pooka, they are linked to more specialized Lares, the Manes (Lares Di Inferi). For Manes see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manes&#xD;&#xA;For Banshees i found a book citation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;:&#xD;&#xA;M. A. Lefevre shows that the Roman Lares, so frequently compared to house-haunting fairies, are in reality quite like the Gaelic Banshee… &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The fairy-faith in Celtic countries&#xD;&#xA;by Walter Yeeling Evans-Wentzhttps://books.google.co.ma/books?id=awR_U5Rs2ikC&amp;pg=PT729&amp;lpg=PT729&amp;dq=banshee+lares&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=ZioxW1klPJ&amp;sig=Gk9Rb2YcoEZ1ph-eQ7v3IlJldWE&amp;hl=fr&amp;sa=X&amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;q=banshee%20lares&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although they are global, if you just want to give it the flavor of a specific culture, just use words used by that culture for various nature spirits. Most people know that Sluaghs are not likely to cohabit with Kitsunes and Efrits.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6532" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1522" RevisionGUID="172fdc1a-f27d-42a2-897d-247e9ed239c0" CreationDate="2016-03-18T21:24:33.263" UserId="123" Comment="deleted 10 characters in body" Text="I am no expert but I think that while some are geographical, most are based on pre-existing myths.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most Celtic faeries are linked to Greco-roman nature spirits and gods. For instance La Dame du Lac is probably a type of Naiad or Limnade. The Lares gave all domestic fae and other faeries. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Local legends, like La Bête de Gèvaudan, one of a kind monster in a specific area, was generalized into the lycanthropy desease and became international as the werewolf legend (though there are some possible mentions in Greco-Roman cultures). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia has a good site for nymphs. While they are female by definition, just think of them as genderless nature spirits and you have most faeries.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;:&#xD;&#xA;•	Land nymphs&#xD;&#xA;•	Alseides (glens, groves)&#xD;&#xA;•	Auloniades (pastures)&#xD;&#xA;•	Leimakides or Leimonides (meadows)&#xD;&#xA;•	Napaeae (mountain valleys, glens)&#xD;&#xA;•	Oreads (mountains, grottoes), also Orodemniades&#xD;&#xA;•	Wood and plant nymphs&#xD;&#xA;•	Anthousai (flowers)&#xD;&#xA;•	Dryades (trees)&#xD;&#xA;•	Hamadryades or Hadryades&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nymph&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For instance for Welsh fae, you have:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;:&#xD;&#xA;1.	the ellyllon, or the elves;&#xD;&#xA;2.	the coblynau, or the mine fairies;&#xD;&#xA;3.	the bwbachod, or the household fairies;&#xD;&#xA;4.	the gwragedd annwn, or the fairies of the lakes and streams;&#xD;&#xA;5.	the gwyllion, or the mountain fairies.&#xD;&#xA;http://www.timelessmyths.com/celtic/faeries.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can see a clear correlation between that and nymphs and Lares. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You mention banshee and pooka, they are linked to more specialized Lares, the Manes (Lares Di Inferi). For Manes see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manes&#xD;&#xA;For Banshees i found in *The fairy-faith in Celtic countries*&#xD;&#xA;by Walter Yeeling Evans-Wentz:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;:&#xD;&#xA;M. A. Lefevre shows that the Roman Lares, so frequently compared to house-haunting fairies, are in reality quite like the Gaelic Banshee… &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://books.google.co.ma/books?id=awR_U5Rs2ikC&amp;pg=PT729&amp;lpg=PT729&amp;dq=banshee+lares&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=ZioxW1klPJ&amp;sig=Gk9Rb2YcoEZ1ph-eQ7v3IlJldWE&amp;hl=fr&amp;sa=X&amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;q=banshee%20lares&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although they are global, if you just want to give it the flavor of a specific culture, just use words used by that culture for various nature spirits. Most people know that Sluaghs are not likely to cohabit with Kitsunes and Efrits.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6536" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1523" RevisionGUID="5d1d6004-f3d3-4bdc-8c34-cdd6236d23fe" CreationDate="2016-03-19T12:58:49.983" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6537" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1523" RevisionGUID="bcd99afe-d4a1-4114-a989-df609db07b3a" CreationDate="2016-03-19T13:44:40.957" UserId="967" Comment="flow is bad" Text="I remember reading about a mythic battle between the forces of the moon and the sun. They were not battles between Sun and Moon, but war between armies of the sun and of the moon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of them, the sun more likely, won. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The myth might have been from India, Persia or Babylonia. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am interested in the origin of the myth and if there are similar myths in other cultures? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6538" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1519" RevisionGUID="84bdf56e-77a7-4960-8408-785ca06165ff" CreationDate="2016-03-19T14:45:14.717" UserId="-1" Comment="Trident information was wrong" Text="Zeus, for the most part, seems to be represented as the head of the gods in most cases. For example:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - He was the only one not eaten by Kronos, and managed to save his siblings&#xD;&#xA; - He was ruler of Olympus, home of the gods&#xD;&#xA; - Many of the heroes and kings mentioned in mythology are his children. This would include Perseus, Tantalus, Minos, etc (see the wikipedia page for Zeus for more). In fact, four of the twelve gods of Olympus are his children- Athena, Hephaestus, Ares, and Dionysus.&#xD;&#xA; - Being ruler of the sky pretty much cinches him as the ruler. In ancient Greece, the sky was always above you, huge, unreachable, and full of mysterious pwers they didn't understand. It would make sense if their chief deity was the controller of all that.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;BUT&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although Zeus is generally portrayed as king god, remember, there is no &quot;set in stone&quot; verion of the myth. Since the Bronze Age, they were generally told orally from one person to another, each embellishing and carving it to their own liking. The version of the myths as most people today know them were described (and, importantly, written down) by authors such as Ovid, Homer,and Hesoid. While it is likely that their version of the myths was similar to everyone else's, there is no reason to believe that everything had to be exactly as we know it. A lot can change in a few thousand years! Sure, a thing like &quot;who's chief of the gods&quot; is a mighty thing to change, but as you mentioned, it would actually make sense for Poseidon to be the chief deity, even if Zeus was technically king. Here's why:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The Greeks (and the Romans, too, for that matter) lived on the Mediterranean. A map of their world looked something like this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/mRvKN.png&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most of their world, if you notice, was ocean, or more specifically, Oceanus, the personification of the sea that supposedly surrounded the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - For the most part, Greece was a bunch of islands with some annoying mountains here and there. The sea was a huge part of their lives, whether they wanted it to be or not.&#xD;&#xA; - In fact, the sea would probably be as mysterious as the sky to them. They wouldn't know about currents, or how storms worked, or about how come there were tides. There's only so much land-based weather could do the Greeks. They are not really in a region prone to tornadoes or anything like that. However, storms on the ocean were probably more or less normal- and much more powerful.&#xD;&#xA; - And who ruled pver this massive, dangerous, all-powerful sea? Poseidon. As if that wasn't enough, he was also given the title of Earthshaker, attributing even more power and destruction to him.&#xD;&#xA; - Much like Zeus,many of his children were significant in mythology, including Bellerophon, Charybodis, and Proteus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From all this, it would make sense that the ancient people favored Poseidon over Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that I didn't mention the trident. That's because during a battle the giants gave each of the three elder gods a gift. Poseidon got his trident, Hades got the helmet of darkness which can  make him disappear, and Zeus was given the lightning bolt. So they each got something to show their power and Poseidon's trident had nothing to do with it." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6539" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1519" RevisionGUID="84bdf56e-77a7-4960-8408-785ca06165ff" CreationDate="2016-03-19T14:45:14.717" Comment="Proposed by anonymous approved by 967, 398 edit id of 313" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6540" PostHistoryTypeId="8" PostId="1523" RevisionGUID="353e4361-2fbf-41be-9ccc-670bc6ad0128" CreationDate="2016-03-19T19:35:01.443" UserId="123" Comment="Rollback to [5d1d6004-f3d3-4bdc-8c34-cdd6236d23fe]" Text="I remember reading about a mythic battle between the forces of the moon and the sun.&#xD;&#xA;Not battles between Sun and Moon but war between armies of the sun and of the moon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of them, the sun possibly, won. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The myth might have been from India, Persia or Babylonia. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am interested in the origin of the myth and if there are similar myths in other cultures? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6541" PostHistoryTypeId="8" PostId="1523" RevisionGUID="034df959-b8a7-4bf5-a501-43b177584e8a" CreationDate="2016-03-19T19:35:18.913" UserId="123" Comment="Rollback to [bcd99afe-d4a1-4114-a989-df609db07b3a]" Text="I remember reading about a mythic battle between the forces of the moon and the sun. They were not battles between Sun and Moon, but war between armies of the sun and of the moon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of them, the sun more likely, won. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The myth might have been from India, Persia or Babylonia. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am interested in the origin of the myth and if there are similar myths in other cultures? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6542" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1523" RevisionGUID="c18427b1-ebdf-41e3-9dab-c16fa5ade32d" CreationDate="2016-03-19T19:38:45.370" UserId="123" Comment="deleted 9 characters in body" Text="I remember reading about a mythic battle between the forces of the moon and the sun. Not conflicts between Sun and Moon, but a war between armies of the sun and of the moon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of them, the sun possibly, won. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The myth might have been from India, Persia or Babylonia. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am interested in the origin of the myth and if there are similar myths in other cultures? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6543" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1524" RevisionGUID="21bdf756-a4bb-4855-ae78-33009d03d78f" CreationDate="2016-03-20T13:45:42.280" UserId="967" Text="The *Drakones indikoi* was a legendary being. The can be found from [here][1]. It says they came from India.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can anyone tell me that animal this corresponded to and Why they were in India?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Thaumasios/DrakonesIndikoi.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6544" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1524" RevisionGUID="21bdf756-a4bb-4855-ae78-33009d03d78f" CreationDate="2016-03-20T13:45:42.280" UserId="967" Text="Why were the Greeks in India?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6545" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1524" RevisionGUID="21bdf756-a4bb-4855-ae78-33009d03d78f" CreationDate="2016-03-20T13:45:42.280" UserId="967" Text="|greek|dragons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6546" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="1524" RevisionGUID="9aed4128-022c-4e63-a060-10e3db4e29cd" CreationDate="2016-03-20T17:31:51.617" UserId="57" Comment="103" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Yannis&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="6547" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1524" RevisionGUID="f13ec7c5-5989-498f-bed9-619bbd8af6bf" CreationDate="2016-03-20T18:58:28.873" UserId="967" Comment="deleted 7 characters in body; edited title" Text="The *Drakones indikoi* was a legendary being. The can be found from [here][1]. It says they came from India.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can anyone tell me that animal this corresponded to and originated from?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Thaumasios/DrakonesIndikoi.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6548" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1524" RevisionGUID="f13ec7c5-5989-498f-bed9-619bbd8af6bf" CreationDate="2016-03-20T18:58:28.873" UserId="967" Comment="deleted 7 characters in body; edited title" Text="What was the origin of the Indian Drakon" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6549" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1525" RevisionGUID="df949962-12ec-4c0e-9719-afef1d37f095" CreationDate="2016-03-20T19:12:43.417" UserId="292" Text="Posedion may well have benn a chief god in some particular places. This would have been in the Mycenean period, when Poseidon had [important cults][1] at Pylos and Thebes. Also, on the [Linear B tablets][2] his name is more common than Zeus', along with a feminine variant that was probably his spouse. Other tablets record offerings to Poseidon and the [Two Queens][2] (assumed to be Demeter and Persephone).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.ca/books?id=sxurBtx6shoC&amp;q=Poseidon#v=snippet&amp;q=Poseidon&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poseidon" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6550" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1526" RevisionGUID="c53d209d-c724-4797-8186-343d8d75f66c" CreationDate="2016-03-21T02:12:19.897" UserId="154" Text="According to [Wikipedia][1], The myths of Ragnarok as we know them were compiled in the 13th century, and while describing events in some detail, these were considered to be prophetic, as the events described had not yet occurred.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moving forward to today, could it be considered that Ragnarok has taken place between the time when the myths were written down and now?  The mythological landscape of Europe has largely changed from Norse-influenced to Judaeo-Christian, so could this shift be interpreted as Ragnarok and its aftermath?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar%C3%B6k" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6551" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1526" RevisionGUID="c53d209d-c724-4797-8186-343d8d75f66c" CreationDate="2016-03-21T02:12:19.897" UserId="154" Text="Could Ragnarok be considered to have occurred?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6552" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1526" RevisionGUID="c53d209d-c724-4797-8186-343d8d75f66c" CreationDate="2016-03-21T02:12:19.897" UserId="154" Text="|norse|ragnarok|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6553" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1527" RevisionGUID="51a63085-4d9d-4fa2-b664-59a28ab16cff" CreationDate="2016-03-21T02:25:57.023" UserId="1357" Text="I'm curious if there are any books/essays/discussions about the idea that ancient cultures didn't value individualism (for a variety of reasons) like we do today, and so poetry, literature, and art were primarily about celebrating deities or deities interacting with archetypal humans, rather than so much of what we see from recent history (say the last two thousand or so years), where art works develop towards a lack of deity, even no deity at all, or any kind of super human interaction, instead featuring a story of everyday humanity?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps I'm misreading history, or misunderstanding much of mythology, but that seems to be my impression.  Thanks!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6554" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1527" RevisionGUID="51a63085-4d9d-4fa2-b664-59a28ab16cff" CreationDate="2016-03-21T02:25:57.023" UserId="1357" Text="Did ancient myths center on deities because individualism was not valued?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6555" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1527" RevisionGUID="51a63085-4d9d-4fa2-b664-59a28ab16cff" CreationDate="2016-03-21T02:25:57.023" UserId="1357" Text="|comparative|history|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6556" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1528" RevisionGUID="b164da4d-a0bd-4ca6-9b15-2721a0bb902f" CreationDate="2016-03-21T04:03:03.360" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="Rather than thinking of Bernlak as being &quot;enchanted&quot;, most scholars seem to discuss the story [in terms of Bernlack acting as an emissary/agent of Morgan][1]. One of the problems with reading translations online is that they are usually old (i.e. out of date) translations. So I think your confusion about whether Bernlak is &quot;enchanted&quot; (i.e. controlled using magic) partly comes from the fact that Tolkien's translation isn't up to date. I'm not sure if the word bewitched is the right word to use in this context.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of course, part of your confusion comes from the fact that *the story is deliberately confusing*. The fact that Morgan is the mastermind behind the plot of Bernlak considerably changes how we interpret the story. Yet at the same time, this fact is revealed almost as an afterthought, at the end of the story after all of the action has taken place. It's almost as if Morgan is being used as an excuse for the action that took place during the story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So as a way of answering this question, here are some of the ways that this revelation changes the story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. A key feature in the story is that although the narrative primarily focuses&#xD;&#xA;on male characters, it turns out that women characters are the ones who are in&#xD;&#xA;control of the story. So most analyses of the story focus on how this fact&#xD;&#xA;influences the gender dynamics of the story. One of the interesting things about&#xD;&#xA;celtic literature is that it subverts a lot of gender roles, and as a result it's studied by people interested in gender.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. The paper [Sodomy, Misogyny, and Displacement: Occluding Queer Desire in &quot;Sir Gawain and the Green Knight&quot;][2] focuses on the exchanges that Gawain and Bernlak make during the course of the story. As you know, Gawain and Bernlak make a promise: for three days Bernlak would give Gawain whatever he found in the forest, and Gawain would give Bernlak whatever he found in the castle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    When Gawain is in the castle, Bernlak's wife attempts to seduce Gawain. Gawain is able to avoid this, and they only kiss. But throughout the story, Gawain has to avoid committing adultery with Bernlak's wife. The obvious, stated reason for this is that doing so would -- to put it mildly -- be disrespectful.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    The less obvious, unstated reason is that if Gawain had sex with Bernlak's wife, Gawain would have to share that experience with Bernlak. At the time the story was written, Britain was extremely homophobic. So Gawain having sex with Bernlak would be extremely problematic, as well as dishonorable to Arthur's court.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    Gawain manages to avoid having sex with Bernlak's wife (and thus Bernlak). But Bernlak, as the person who came up with the game that potentially could have led to Bernlak and Gawain to violate Britain's gender norms, could be interpreted as wanting to have sex with Gawain. More to the point, the story could be interpreted as depicting a man wanting to have sex with another man. So hence the fact that Morgan is blamed for causing the events in the story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is only the tip of the iceberg: [there are a lot of different interpretations of the story out there][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7722/j.ctt9qdj7h.16&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/27869340&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&amp;q=gawain%20morgan&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6557" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1529" RevisionGUID="0e616d6c-bd9a-4a45-bff9-7b9f8d1033cf" CreationDate="2016-03-21T09:26:38.140" UserId="1358" Text="The above answers concentrate on &quot;species&quot; of fairies, but it is also worth noting that different regions tend to have different ways of understanding Faery &amp; fairy folk *in general*. For instance, in Brittany they are strongly associated with the Dead; in Ireland, with races of previous inhabitants. In Ireland they are likely to wear green; in Wales the Tylwyth Teg are more likely to be wearing red. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a book called &quot;The Fairy Faith in Celtic Countries&quot; by W. Y.Evans-Wentz, written in the early 20th century which deals with this. It must be said that it is, in some ways, a flawed work &amp; that some of his field work; interviewing people in different regions, was bogus as he employed correspondents; but it was a PHD thesis, it covers your area of interest &amp; afaik it is still in print. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I recommend it, it's a good read.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Personally I am wary of making too many associations between ideas from the Classical, &quot;Celtic&quot; &amp; Northern European cultures. Popular folklore studies is still rather dominated by ideas from the classical world because all those Edwardian ethnographers had received an education in the classics &amp; it was all that they had to compare things with. Evans-Wentz can still be recommended because he took the source material on its own terms &amp; was open minded about it's origins &amp; meaning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you look at the source material, many &quot;Celtic Fairies&quot; don't seem to be what *we* would call &quot;nature spirits.&quot; Spirits of place perhaps.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6558" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1530" RevisionGUID="fc24c234-1515-41e9-a113-fff6e8bbf826" CreationDate="2016-03-21T09:38:41.780" UserId="1358" Text="In most schools of &quot;Western Ritual Magic,&quot; some of which seems to have Judaic roots, Michael is invoked in the South as Archangel of Fire &amp; Gabriel in the West as Archangel of Water.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't know the original source of this symbolism, but it is widespread. An example is the famous &quot;Banishing Ritual of the Lesser Pentagram.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sorry if this seems off topic for Judaism, but it may be of interest. Here is an example.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://www.kheper.net/topics/Hermeticism/LBR.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6559" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1531" RevisionGUID="f05233cc-c916-4cd9-87cc-94564e4f35a7" CreationDate="2016-03-21T21:34:22.983" UserId="467" Text="It's that time of year: I'm looking for examples in the hero cycle where the hero returns in the spring. Also where gods (*other than* &quot;dying and resurrecting gods&quot;) make an appearance/reappearance in the spring and the time of year is important in the myth. What examples does anyone know of?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6560" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1531" RevisionGUID="f05233cc-c916-4cd9-87cc-94564e4f35a7" CreationDate="2016-03-21T21:34:22.983" UserId="467" Text="Which Mythic Heroes Returned in the Spring?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6561" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1531" RevisionGUID="f05233cc-c916-4cd9-87cc-94564e4f35a7" CreationDate="2016-03-21T21:34:22.983" UserId="467" Text="|resurrection|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6562" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1531" RevisionGUID="2a4f61dc-45c0-436a-a1c5-cb15d8a128d3" CreationDate="2016-03-21T23:45:36.430" UserId="967" Comment="formatting, question, tags" Text="I'm looking for examples in the hero cycle where the hero returns in the spring. Also where gods (*other than* &quot;dying and resurrecting gods&quot;) make an appearance/reappearance in the spring, and the time of year is important in the myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What examples does anyone know of heroes or gods returning in the spring?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6563" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1531" RevisionGUID="2a4f61dc-45c0-436a-a1c5-cb15d8a128d3" CreationDate="2016-03-21T23:45:36.430" UserId="967" Comment="formatting, question, tags" Text="|myth-identification|resurrection|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6564" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1532" RevisionGUID="12ac9076-3abd-48fa-97a5-3945193af79d" CreationDate="2016-03-22T00:28:27.990" UserId="967" Text="Well, in Greek mythology, the story of Persephone tells us that she would go into the underworld for a period of time, and come back.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Demeter would &quot;make&quot; it winter until Persephone would come back. Obviously, when she would come back, it would be warmer, so it would be spring.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some [theoi][1] evidence:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Persephone was titled Kore (the Maiden) as the goddess of spring's bounty. Once upon a time when she was playing in a flowery meadow with her Nymph companions, Kore was seized by Haides and carried off to the underworld as his bride. Her mother Demeter despaired at her dissappearance and searched for her the throughout the world accompanied by the goddess Hekate bearing torches. When she learned that Zeus had conspired in her daughter's abduction she was furious, and refused to let the earth fruit until Persephone was returned. Zeus consented, but because the girl had tasted of the food of Haides--a handful of pomegranate seeds--she was forced to forever spend a part of the year with her husband in the underworld. Her annual return to the earth in spring was marked by the flowering of the meadows and the sudden growth of the new grain. Her return to the underworld in winter, conversely, saw the dying down of plants and the halting of growth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She was even the goddess of spring bounty, but that was the story of spring, basically.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Persephone.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6565" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1533" RevisionGUID="1bff5e9c-5b42-4322-a6ab-1cfd09e1efa7" CreationDate="2016-03-22T01:38:24.430" UserId="95" Text="Perhaps for something to be mythology it needs some superhuman or extra-human element, otherwise it's classed as a story or tale?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For instance, I don't think I've seen the [Tale of the Eloquent Peasant][1] described as a myth. But it might fit as a tale of everyday humanity. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/1800egypt-peasant.asp" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6566" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1534" RevisionGUID="86468c01-aa57-41e2-86e9-590333a7e3de" CreationDate="2016-03-22T02:10:42.517" UserId="95" Text="Cat's weren't exactly worshiped in Egypt, despite what Herodotus wrote. They were [slaughtered by the millions][1] to be mummified and serve as messengers to the gods. It's also interesting to note that while the Egyptians gave their pet dogs names, the only name we've seen them give their cats is &quot;Meow&quot; or &quot;Ms. Meow&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There were single specific bulls that were considered living representatives of gods (Apis, Buchis, etc) and a sacred ram representative of Banebdjedet at Mendes, and Amun at Karnak. But we have no records of a specific cat representative of Bast or Ra, which was buried the same way as the bulls and rams.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://news.discovery.com/history/ancient-egypt/mummified-animals-egypt-120106.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6567" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1531" RevisionGUID="f12952e7-0d0b-4ea0-a3d0-165f39697092" CreationDate="2016-03-22T05:07:49.450" UserId="467" Comment="added 24 characters in body" Text="It's that time of year: I'm looking for examples in the hero cycle where the hero returns in the spring. Also where gods (*other than* &quot;dying and resurrecting gods&quot;) make an appearance/reappearance in the spring, and the time of year is important in the myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What examples does anyone know of heroes or gods returning in the spring?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6568" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1531" RevisionGUID="72e07aee-d845-4e89-8da4-15e7044e8449" CreationDate="2016-03-22T10:10:32.450" UserId="467" Comment="added 5 characters in body" Text="It's that time of year: I'm looking for examples in the hero cycle where the hero returns in the spring. Also where gods (*other than* &quot;dying and resurrecting gods&quot;) make an appearance/reappearance in the spring and where the time of year is important in the myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What examples does anyone know of heroes or gods returning in the spring?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6569" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1535" RevisionGUID="e9bc5d06-decb-4d74-8db6-5ed76ca140f5" CreationDate="2016-03-22T14:11:44.123" UserId="160" Text="No. Ragnarok isn't just the fall of the Norse pantheon, it's the destruction of the entire world. The stories vary, but something apocalyptic like the whole earth being set on fire or the sky splitting apart normally happens. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6570" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1536" RevisionGUID="6913b581-709b-4bed-99b1-76028919cc31" CreationDate="2016-03-22T14:17:30.170" UserId="160" Text="There is one poem by Callimachus that describes Artemis asking her father to allow her to remain a virgin forever as a child. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Artemis we hymn – no light thing is it for singers to forget her – whose study is the bow and the shooting of hares and the spacious dance and sport upon the mountains; beginning with the time when sitting on her father’s knees – still a little maid – she spake these words to her sire: “Give me to keep my maidenhood, Father, forever: and give me to be of many names, that Phoebus may not vie with me. And give me arrows and a bow – stay, Father, I ask thee not for quiver or for mighty bow: for me the Cyclopes will straightway fashion arrows and fashion for me a well-bent bow. But give me to be Bringer of Light1 and give me to gird me in a tunic2 with embroidered border reaching to the knee, that I may slay wild beasts." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6571" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1531" RevisionGUID="012918a5-3cac-46a8-9f62-aca439241cee" CreationDate="2016-03-22T18:27:54.483" UserId="467" Comment="added 6 characters in body" Text="It's that time of year: I'm looking for examples in the hero cycle where the hero returns in the spring. Also where gods (*other than* &quot;dying and resurrecting gods&quot;) make an appearance/reappearance in the spring and where the time of year is important in the myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What examples does anyone know of in which heroes or gods return in the spring?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6572" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1537" RevisionGUID="74d78d2f-036c-47ff-8ac2-56333747ff5e" CreationDate="2016-03-23T01:27:21.177" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="The history of individualism is quite complex. But one of the interesting things about individualism was that it developed partially in tandem with developments in christian doctrine.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A modern &quot;relic&quot; of this is the idea of having a personal relationship with god. This is about as individualistic as you can get: everyone has their own, individual, personal connection. But at the same time, this idea involves the celebration of a deity. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So no, I don't think it's fair or accurate to say that individualism and the belief in deities are incompatible. Furthermore, even if we assume that all &quot;ancient cultures&quot; believe in deities, I don't see how anyone can argue that this belief stems from a lack of individualism, given the history of the concept.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some interesting sources on the subject (I haven't read all of them, but they all look interesting):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dumont, L. (1986). Essays on individualism : Modern ideology in anthropological perspective. Chicago: University of Chicago Press.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Morris, C. (1972). The discovery of the individual, 1050-1200. (Church history outlines, 5). London: S.P.C.K. for the Church Historical Society.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Schooler, C.. (1990). The Individual in Japanese History: Parallels to and Divergences from the European Experience. Sociological Forum, 5(4), 569–594. Retrieved from http://www.jstor.org/stable/684686&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you want something that's available for free online, again, [my blog post is a good way to start](https://taxicrash.github.io/2016/01/22/individual-dividual/)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6581" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1539" RevisionGUID="7b6581f4-91d6-4d09-a0dd-db53f0ef3c5b" CreationDate="2016-03-23T21:59:25.327" UserId="1374" Text="I've heard, that the takem children, could fimd several fates, they could be made slaves/servants, they could be raised as one of the fairies, living long happy lifes, sometimes returning to the human world, as powerfull witches, sometimes the child was simply killed, or even eaten. The one taken could be an adult, that the fair folk found interesting or usefull, they could also be made slaves, midwives, or even lovers. It is said that children born from fairies and humans would be very skilled for sorcery (especially females) more powerfull than any human witch and could become more powerfull than the fairs themselves, for theu would have the magic of a fairy, and the human conection to magic, that alows us to perform witchcraft. An example of this would be Morgana Le'Fay arguably the most powrefull witch of all time&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6582" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1539" RevisionGUID="3688c2ec-1267-4b4e-a829-22950e0b9fe9" CreationDate="2016-03-23T22:33:31.380" UserId="967" Comment="punctuation is bad" Text="I've heard, that they take children, could find several fates, they could be made slaves/servants, they could be raised as one of the fairies, living long happy lives, sometimes returning to the human world, as powerful witches, sometimes the child was simply killed, or even eaten. The one taken could be an adult, that the fair folk found interesting or useful, they could also be made slaves, midwives, or even lovers. It is said that children born from fairies and humans would be very skilled for sorcery (especially females) more powerful than any human witch and could become more powerful than the fairies themselves, for they would have the magic of a fairy, and the human connection to magic, that allows us to perform witchcraft. An example of this would be Morgana Le'Fay, arguably the most powerful witch of all time&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6583" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1527" RevisionGUID="5824cff9-b808-4835-8a48-953bc2e09036" CreationDate="2016-03-23T23:35:18.793" UserId="967" Comment="Question changed" Text="Are there any books/essays/discussions about the idea that ancient cultures didn't value individualism (for a variety of reasons) like we do today, and so poetry, literature, and art were primarily about celebrating deities or deities interacting with archetypal humans, rather than so much of what we see from recent history (say the last two thousand or so years), where art works develop towards a lack of deity, even no deity at all, or any kind of super human interaction, instead featuring a story of everyday humanity?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps I'm misreading history, or misunderstanding much of mythology, but that seems to be my impression.  Thanks!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6584" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="146" RevisionGUID="b1129efc-77c2-4913-8e88-2cc9711cdbf1" CreationDate="2016-03-24T00:00:31.370" UserId="967" Comment="Olympian instead of main" Text="Did the ancient Greeks believe that the number 12 symbolized everything? Was it random that there were 12 Olympian gods and no more (or less)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6585" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1540" RevisionGUID="878fb88e-6b71-491e-81a2-d427b84690ad" CreationDate="2016-03-24T01:56:53.197" UserId="1375" Text="Being a Sabine derived goddess of Rome, it's not odd to think that there is a linguistic equivalent of Flora in Sabine. I keep seeing claims that Flora was called by the Sabines as Flusia, and that July in the Sabine calendar was called Flusalia (which is allegedly related to Floralia). Some places claim that the Oscans called her this name and that July was Flusalia to them. I can't find any citations for the Flusia claim, but that there was a month on the Sabine calendar is cited from &quot;Momms, *Chron.*, 219&quot; but I don't know what &quot;Momms&quot; or &quot;Chron.&quot; stands for, and I can't seem to find what they are abbreviations of. Are either of these claims true? If so, are there any reliable sources to justify them?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6586" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1540" RevisionGUID="878fb88e-6b71-491e-81a2-d427b84690ad" CreationDate="2016-03-24T01:56:53.197" UserId="1375" Text="Is this Sabine name of Flora accurate?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6587" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1540" RevisionGUID="878fb88e-6b71-491e-81a2-d427b84690ad" CreationDate="2016-03-24T01:56:53.197" UserId="1375" Text="|roman|source-request|linguistics|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6588" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1541" RevisionGUID="ae216a4b-1998-4e8b-97b6-c72177a85c0d" CreationDate="2016-03-24T09:27:11.640" UserId="111" Text="That claim according to which there was a Sabine month called Flusalis can be found in a footnote of [William Warde Fowler's *The Roman festivals of the period of the Republic; an introduction to the study of the religion of the Romans*](https://archive.org/details/romanfestivalsof00fowluoft) (p.92). Here is the complete footnote:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Steuding in *Myth. Lex.* s. v. Flora. There was a Sabine month Flusalis (Momms. *Chron.* 219) = Floralis, and answering to July. Varro considered Flora a sabine deity (*L. L.* 5. 74).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The abbreviation &quot;Momms.&quot; refers to [Theodor Mommsen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Mommsen), a XIXth century historian specialised in ancient Rome (and 1902 Nobel Prize in Literature, incidentally).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And indeed he wrote '[Die römische Chronologie bis auf Caesar](http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hnlewl;view=1up;seq=225)' and page 219 shows the sabine calendar, here reproduced as well as I can:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; II. Sabellische Kalender.  &#xD;&#xA;a. von Cures Sabinorum  &#xD;&#xA;vierter Monat *Martius*  (Ovid. *fast.* 3, 94)  &#xD;&#xA;b. der Herniker  &#xD;&#xA;sechster Monat *Martius* (Ovid. *fast.* 3, 90)  &#xD;&#xA;c. von Ferentinum, erwähnt bei Censorinus 20, 1.  &#xD;&#xA;d. der Aequiculer  &#xD;&#xA;zehnter Monat *Martius* (Ovid. *fast.* 3, 93)  &#xD;&#xA;e. der Paeligner  &#xD;&#xA;vierter Monat *Martius* (Ovid. *fast.* 3, 95)  &#xD;&#xA;f. der Vestiner  &#xD;&#xA;Monat *Flusaris* d. i. *Floralis*, entsprechend dem römischen Juli (Inschrift von Furfo I. N. 6011 = Orelli 2488; vgl. unterital. Dial. S. 340).  &#xD;&#xA;g. oskischer (samnitischer)  &#xD;&#xA;Monat *Maesius* d. i. der römische *Maius* (Fest. *ep.* p. 136).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So it seems that the name of the Sabine Month was in fact *Flusiaris* and that the source for it is an inscription in [Furfo](http://referenceworks.brillonline.com/entries/brill-s-new-pauly/furfo-e416520).&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6589" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1541" RevisionGUID="a94137c4-aaa0-4478-88a4-b29f74bad3cf" CreationDate="2016-03-24T10:06:25.440" UserId="111" Comment="added 399 characters in body" Text="That claim according to which there was a Sabine month called Flusalis can be found in a footnote of [William Warde Fowler's *The Roman festivals of the period of the Republic; an introduction to the study of the religion of the Romans*](https://archive.org/details/romanfestivalsof00fowluoft) (p.92). Here is the complete footnote:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Steuding in *Myth. Lex.* s. v. Flora. There was a Sabine month Flusalis (Momms. *Chron.* 219) = Floralis, and answering to July. Varro considered Flora a sabine deity (*L. L.* 5. 74).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The abbreviation &quot;Momms.&quot; refers to [Theodor Mommsen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Mommsen), a XIXth century historian specialised in ancient Rome (and 1902 Nobel Prize in Literature, incidentally).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And indeed he wrote '[Die römische Chronologie bis auf Caesar](http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hnlewl;view=1up;seq=225)' and page 219 shows the sabine calendar, here reproduced as well as I can:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; II. Sabellische Kalender.  &#xD;&#xA;a. von Cures Sabinorum  &#xD;&#xA;vierter Monat *Martius*  (Ovid. *fast.* 3, 94)  &#xD;&#xA;b. der Herniker  &#xD;&#xA;sechster Monat *Martius* (Ovid. *fast.* 3, 90)  &#xD;&#xA;c. von Ferentinum, erwähnt bei Censorinus 20, 1.  &#xD;&#xA;d. der Aequiculer  &#xD;&#xA;zehnter Monat *Martius* (Ovid. *fast.* 3, 93)  &#xD;&#xA;e. der Paeligner  &#xD;&#xA;vierter Monat *Martius* (Ovid. *fast.* 3, 95)  &#xD;&#xA;f. der Vestiner  &#xD;&#xA;Monat *Flusaris* d. i. *Floralis*, entsprechend dem römischen Juli (Inschrift von Furfo I. N. 6011 = Orelli 2488; vgl. unterital. Dial. S. 340).  &#xD;&#xA;g. oskischer (samnitischer)  &#xD;&#xA;Monat *Maesius* d. i. der römische *Maius* (Fest. *ep.* p. 136).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So it seems that the name of the Sabine Month was in fact *Flusaris* and that the source for it is an inscription in [Furfo](http://referenceworks.brillonline.com/entries/brill-s-new-pauly/furfo-e416520).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This inscription can be found in [Voigt (1860)](https://books.google.de/books?id=Kcr2pOaDN-8C&amp;ots=JlClYejTYT&amp;dq=Furfo%20inscriptions%20I%20N%206011&amp;lr&amp;pg=PA65#v=onepage&amp;q=6011&amp;f=false) and start with the following two lines:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; L. Aienus L. f., Q. Baebatius Sex. f. aedem dedicarunt  &#xD;&#xA;Jovis Liberi Furfone a(nte) d(iem) III. idus Quinctileis L. Pisone A. Gabinio cos., **mense Flusare**  &#xD;&#xA;[...]" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6590" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1541" RevisionGUID="c1606d9b-c8a1-46fc-b497-819860ab4e47" CreationDate="2016-03-24T10:34:29.287" UserId="111" Comment="added other reference by Mommsen." Text="That claim according to which there was a Sabine month called Flusalis can be found in a footnote of [William Warde Fowler's *The Roman festivals of the period of the Republic; an introduction to the study of the religion of the Romans*](https://archive.org/details/romanfestivalsof00fowluoft) (p.92). Here is the complete footnote:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Steuding in *Myth. Lex.* s. v. Flora. There was a Sabine month Flusalis (Momms. *Chron.* 219) = Floralis, and answering to July. Varro considered Flora a sabine deity (*L. L.* 5. 74).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The abbreviation &quot;Momms.&quot; refers to [Theodor Mommsen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Mommsen), a XIXth century historian specialised in ancient Rome (and 1902 Nobel Prize in Literature, incidentally).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And indeed he wrote '[Die römische Chronologie bis auf Caesar](http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hnlewl;view=1up;seq=225)' and page 219 shows the sabine calendar, here reproduced as best as I can:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; II. Sabellische Kalender.  &#xD;&#xA;a. von Cures Sabinorum  &#xD;&#xA;vierter Monat *Martius*  (Ovid. *fast.* 3, 94)  &#xD;&#xA;b. der Herniker  &#xD;&#xA;sechster Monat *Martius* (Ovid. *fast.* 3, 90)  &#xD;&#xA;c. von Ferentinum, erwähnt bei Censorinus 20, 1.  &#xD;&#xA;d. der Aequiculer  &#xD;&#xA;zehnter Monat *Martius* (Ovid. *fast.* 3, 93)  &#xD;&#xA;e. der Paeligner  &#xD;&#xA;vierter Monat *Martius* (Ovid. *fast.* 3, 95)  &#xD;&#xA;f. der Vestiner  &#xD;&#xA;Monat *Flusaris* d. i. *Floralis*, entsprechend dem römischen Juli (Inschrift von Furfo I. N. 6011 = Orelli 2488; vgl. unterital. Dial. S. 340).  &#xD;&#xA;g. oskischer (samnitischer)  &#xD;&#xA;Monat *Maesius* d. i. der römische *Maius* (Fest. *ep.* p. 136).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So it seems that the name of the Sabine Month was in fact *Flusaris* and that the source for it is an inscription in [Furfo](http://referenceworks.brillonline.com/entries/brill-s-new-pauly/furfo-e416520).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This inscription can be found in [Voigt (1860)](https://books.google.de/books?id=Kcr2pOaDN-8C&amp;ots=JlClYejTYT&amp;dq=Furfo%20inscriptions%20I%20N%206011&amp;lr&amp;pg=PA65#v=onepage&amp;q=6011&amp;f=false) and start with the following two lines:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; L. Aienus L. f., Q. Baebatius Sex. f. aedem dedicarunt  &#xD;&#xA;Jovis Liberi Furfone a(nte) d(iem) III. idus Quinctileis L. Pisone A. Gabinio cos., **mense Flusare**  &#xD;&#xA;[...]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another inscription is mentioned by Mommsen in his essay on italic languages ([Die unteritalischen Dialekte](https://archive.org/details/dieunteritalisc00mommgoog)), p. 343:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Die vierte Inschrift endlich ist gleich der vorigen eine Dedication; zu Anfang fehlt der Name des Dedicanten und vielleicht mehrere Götternamen. Die esten Worte '*mesene flusare poimunie*' werden erklärt durch das *mense flusare* = mense Florali einer verwandten Inschrift (S. 340); '*flusare*' gehört danach sicher der dritten Decl. an und ist floralis, nicht florarius. Die Flora ist auch unter den Gottheiten, denen Tatius in Rom die Altären weihte die *Sabinam linguam olent* (Varro V. 74). '*poimunie*' ist wohl die (oder der?) umbrische Puemunis [...].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here the word 'flusare' is mentioned along another ombrian god/goddess Puemunis." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6591" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1541" RevisionGUID="e820f927-a2ba-4a7e-b824-7aaa33420157" CreationDate="2016-03-24T10:51:42.403" UserId="111" Comment="added 12 characters in body" Text="That claim according to which there was a Sabine month called Flusalis can be found in a footnote of [William Warde Fowler's *The Roman festivals of the period of the Republic; an introduction to the study of the religion of the Romans*](https://archive.org/details/romanfestivalsof00fowluoft) (p.92). Here is the complete footnote:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Steuding in *Myth. Lex.* s. v. Flora. There was a Sabine month Flusalis (Momms. *Chron.* 219) = Floralis, and answering to July. Varro considered Flora a sabine deity (*L. L.* 5. 74).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The abbreviation &quot;Momms.&quot; refers to [Theodor Mommsen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Mommsen), a XIXth century historian specialised in ancient Rome (and 1902 Nobel Prize in Literature, incidentally).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And indeed he wrote '[Die römische Chronologie bis auf Caesar](http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hnlewl;view=1up;seq=225)' and page 219 shows the sabine calendar, here reproduced as best as I can:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; II. Sabellische Kalender.  &#xD;&#xA;a. von Cures Sabinorum  &#xD;&#xA;vierter Monat *Martius*  (Ovid. *fast.* 3, 94)  &#xD;&#xA;b. der Herniker  &#xD;&#xA;sechster Monat *Martius* (Ovid. *fast.* 3, 90)  &#xD;&#xA;c. von Ferentinum, erwähnt bei Censorinus 20, 1.  &#xD;&#xA;d. der Aequiculer  &#xD;&#xA;zehnter Monat *Martius* (Ovid. *fast.* 3, 93)  &#xD;&#xA;e. der Paeligner  &#xD;&#xA;vierter Monat *Martius* (Ovid. *fast.* 3, 95)  &#xD;&#xA;f. der Vestiner  &#xD;&#xA;Monat *Flusaris* d. i. *Floralis*, entsprechend dem römischen Juli (Inschrift von Furfo I. N. 6011 = Orelli 2488; vgl. unterital. Dial. S. 340).  &#xD;&#xA;g. oskischer (samnitischer)  &#xD;&#xA;Monat *Maesius* d. i. der römische *Maius* (Fest. *ep.* p. 136).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So it seems that the name of the Sabine Month was in fact *Flusaris* and that the source for it is an inscription in [Furfo](http://referenceworks.brillonline.com/entries/brill-s-new-pauly/furfo-e416520).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This inscription can be found in [Voigt (1860)](https://books.google.de/books?id=Kcr2pOaDN-8C&amp;ots=JlClYejTYT&amp;dq=Furfo%20inscriptions%20I%20N%206011&amp;lr&amp;pg=PA65#v=onepage&amp;q=6011&amp;f=false) and start with the following two lines:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; L. Aienus L. f., Q. Baebatius Sex. f. aedem dedicarunt  &#xD;&#xA;Jovis Liberi Furfone a(nte) d(iem) III. idus Quinctileis L. Pisone A. Gabinio cos., **mense Flusare**  &#xD;&#xA;[...]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another inscription is mentioned by Mommsen in his essay on italic languages ([Die unteritalischen Dialekte](https://archive.org/details/dieunteritalisc00mommgoog)), p. 343:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Die vierte Inschrift endlich ist gleich der vorigen eine Dedication; zu Anfang fehlt der Name des Dedicanten und vielleicht mehrere Götternamen. Die esten Worte '*mesene flusare poimunie*' werden erklärt durch das *mense flusare* = mense Florali einer verwandten Inschrift (S. 340); '*flusare*' gehört danach sicher der dritten Decl. an und ist floralis, nicht florarius. Die Flora ist auch unter den Gottheiten, denen Tatius in Rom die Altären weihte die *Sabinam linguam olent* (Varro V. 74). '*poimunie*' ist wohl die (oder der?) umbrische Puemunis [...].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here the word 'flusare' is mentioned along another ombrian god/goddess Puemunis (= Pomona?).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The fact that the god/goddess being associated to this month is the equivalent of Flora however seems to be only Mommsen interpretation, as I haven't found any other sources.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6592" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1541" RevisionGUID="5f927428-d030-4591-a059-01793ec7bf99" CreationDate="2016-03-24T11:06:58.870" UserId="111" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body" Text="That claim according to which there was a Sabine month called Flusalis can be found in a footnote of [William Warde Fowler's *The Roman festivals of the period of the Republic; an introduction to the study of the religion of the Romans*](https://archive.org/details/romanfestivalsof00fowluoft) (p.92). Here is the complete footnote:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Steuding in *Myth. Lex.* s. v. Flora. There was a Sabine month Flusalis (Momms. *Chron.* 219) = Floralis, and answering to July. Varro considered Flora a sabine deity (*L. L.* 5. 74).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The abbreviation &quot;Momms.&quot; refers to [Theodor Mommsen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Mommsen), a XIXth century historian specialised in ancient Rome (and 1902 Nobel Prize in Literature, incidentally).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And indeed he wrote '[Die römische Chronologie bis auf Caesar](http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hnlewl;view=1up;seq=225)' and the relevant part of page 219 is reproduced here as best as I can:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; II. Sabellische Kalender.  &#xD;&#xA;a. von Cures Sabinorum  &#xD;&#xA;vierter Monat *Martius*  (Ovid. *fast.* 3, 94)  &#xD;&#xA;b. der Herniker  &#xD;&#xA;sechster Monat *Martius* (Ovid. *fast.* 3, 90)  &#xD;&#xA;c. von Ferentinum, erwähnt bei Censorinus 20, 1.  &#xD;&#xA;d. der Aequiculer  &#xD;&#xA;zehnter Monat *Martius* (Ovid. *fast.* 3, 93)  &#xD;&#xA;e. der Paeligner  &#xD;&#xA;vierter Monat *Martius* (Ovid. *fast.* 3, 95)  &#xD;&#xA;f. der Vestiner  &#xD;&#xA;Monat *Flusaris* d. i. *Floralis*, entsprechend dem römischen Juli (Inschrift von Furfo I. N. 6011 = Orelli 2488; vgl. unterital. Dial. S. 340).  &#xD;&#xA;g. oskischer (samnitischer)  &#xD;&#xA;Monat *Maesius* d. i. der römische *Maius* (Fest. *ep.* p. 136).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So it seems that the name of the Sabine Month was in fact *Flusaris* and that the source for it is an inscription in [Furfo](http://referenceworks.brillonline.com/entries/brill-s-new-pauly/furfo-e416520).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This inscription can be found in [Voigt (1860)](https://books.google.de/books?id=Kcr2pOaDN-8C&amp;ots=JlClYejTYT&amp;dq=Furfo%20inscriptions%20I%20N%206011&amp;lr&amp;pg=PA65#v=onepage&amp;q=6011&amp;f=false) and start with the following two lines:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; L. Aienus L. f., Q. Baebatius Sex. f. aedem dedicarunt  &#xD;&#xA;Jovis Liberi Furfone a(nte) d(iem) III. idus Quinctileis L. Pisone A. Gabinio cos., **mense Flusare**  &#xD;&#xA;[...]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another inscription is mentioned by Mommsen in his essay on italic languages ([Die unteritalischen Dialekte](https://archive.org/details/dieunteritalisc00mommgoog)), p. 343:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Die vierte Inschrift endlich ist gleich der vorigen eine Dedication; zu Anfang fehlt der Name des Dedicanten und vielleicht mehrere Götternamen. Die esten Worte '*mesene flusare poimunie*' werden erklärt durch das *mense flusare* = mense Florali einer verwandten Inschrift (S. 340); '*flusare*' gehört danach sicher der dritten Decl. an und ist floralis, nicht florarius. Die Flora ist auch unter den Gottheiten, denen Tatius in Rom die Altären weihte die *Sabinam linguam olent* (Varro V. 74). '*poimunie*' ist wohl die (oder der?) umbrische Puemunis [...].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here the word 'flusare' is mentioned along another ombrian god/goddess Puemunis (= Pomona?).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The fact that the god/goddess being associated to this month is the equivalent of Flora however seems to be only Mommsen interpretation, as I haven't found any other sources.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6595" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1542" RevisionGUID="3eb65154-11ff-4781-8ded-c9b82405ef21" CreationDate="2016-03-24T19:37:22.463" UserId="1376" Text="As we all know, Jason and his company of Argonauts took the Gold Fleece from the Garden of Hesperides. What happened with it afterwards? Is it mentioned in any other story of the Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6596" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1542" RevisionGUID="3eb65154-11ff-4781-8ded-c9b82405ef21" CreationDate="2016-03-24T19:37:22.463" UserId="1376" Text="What happened with the Gold Fleece?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6597" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1542" RevisionGUID="3eb65154-11ff-4781-8ded-c9b82405ef21" CreationDate="2016-03-24T19:37:22.463" UserId="1376" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6598" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1542" RevisionGUID="878fa9d9-f651-4554-a83b-57e3829a381c" CreationDate="2016-03-24T19:47:05.220" UserId="1376" Comment="deleted 17 characters in body" Text="As we all know, Jason and his company of Argonauts took the Gold Fleece from Colchis. What happened with it afterwards? Is it mentioned in any other story of the Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6599" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1542" RevisionGUID="27fdca41-8739-4ee6-8a68-25c55efe60df" CreationDate="2016-03-24T21:15:15.357" UserId="967" Comment="golden not gold" Text="As we all know, Jason and his company of Argonauts took the Golden Fleece from Colchis. What happened with it afterwards? Is it mentioned in any other story of the Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6600" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1542" RevisionGUID="27fdca41-8739-4ee6-8a68-25c55efe60df" CreationDate="2016-03-24T21:15:15.357" UserId="967" Comment="golden not gold" Text="What happened with the Golden Fleece?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6601" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1540" RevisionGUID="2df84efe-1739-4947-b239-3371cc17b606" CreationDate="2016-03-25T02:29:50.703" UserId="967" Comment="spacing" Text="Being a Sabine derived goddess of Rome, it's not odd to think that there is a linguistic equivalent of Flora in Sabine. I keep seeing claims that Flora was called by the Sabines as Flusia, and that July in the Sabine calendar was called Flusalia (which is allegedly related to Floralia). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some places claim that the Oscans called her this name and that July was Flusalia to them. I can't find any citations for the Flusia claim, but that there was a month on the Sabine calendar is cited from &quot;Momms, *Chron.*, 219&quot; but I don't know what &quot;Momms&quot; or &quot;Chron.&quot; stands for, and I can't seem to find what they are abbreviations of.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So are either of these claims true? If so, are there any reliable sources to justify them?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6602" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1542" RevisionGUID="9fad1a65-beaa-4f27-bccc-dca170739a25" CreationDate="2016-03-25T15:10:02.317" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6603" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1543" RevisionGUID="673d0bbd-ded7-4dd1-bedf-283071257ab3" CreationDate="2016-03-25T15:15:31.500" UserId="967" Text="After reading a whole [theoi][1] article, it leaves me very confused and with 2 theories. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. The less likely one.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA; First the bull was sacrificed to the god Ares, and the fleece was put on the holy grove of Ares. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt;An oracle told Aeetes, son of Sol [Helios], that he would keep his kingdom as long as the fleece which Phrixus had dedicated should remain in the shrine of Mars [Ares].&quot;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA; Once it came back, it was guarded.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA; &gt;For instance, the report was spread abroad that there were fire-breathing Tauroi (Bulls) round about the precinct and that a sleepless Drakon (Dragon) guarded the fleece . . . &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 2. The more likely one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; It was put as a blanket, or bed sheet after Jason and Medea come back, when they were married.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA; &gt;&quot;[In the cave of Makris on the island of the Phaiakians, Jason and Medea consumated their marriage :] It was here that they prepared a great bed, spreading the shining golden fleece on top of it, to grace the wedding and make it famous in story. Nymphai gathered flowers for them, and as they brought the many-coloured bunches into the cave in their white arms the fiery splendour of the fleece played on them all, so bright was the glitter of its golden wool. It kindled in their eyes a sweet desire. They longed to lay their hands on it, and yet they were afraid to touch it.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Ther/KriosKhrysomallos.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6605" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1471" RevisionGUID="98dee1fa-da22-4bf0-a4e0-af131d9e479b" CreationDate="2016-03-25T19:37:09.570" UserId="967" Comment="not do we know, but how do we know." Text="In most all references to the Lernaean Hydra, it says that the hydra has venomous *breath* and blood.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Pseudo-Hyginus, Fabulae 30 :&#xD;&#xA;&quot;He [Herakles] killed at the spring of Lerna the nine headed Lernaean Hydra, offspring of Typhon. This monster was so poisonous that she killed men with her breath, and if anyone passed by when she was sleeping, he breathed her tracks and died in greatest torment. Under Minerva’s [Athene’s] instructions he killed her, disembowelled her, and dipped his arrows in her gall; and so whatever later he hit with his arrows did not escape death, and later he himself perished in Phrygia from the same cause.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; **How does Hercules avoided breathing in the poisonous fumes?** We know that the poison was potent enough to kill him, as that is how he eventually dies. Is there some information in the story that tell us how he deals with this? Or is it just not included in the myths?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6606" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1471" RevisionGUID="98dee1fa-da22-4bf0-a4e0-af131d9e479b" CreationDate="2016-03-25T19:37:09.570" UserId="967" Comment="not do we know, but how do we know." Text="How does Hercules avoided the Hydra's venomous breath?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6608" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1501" RevisionGUID="50de7d13-8df9-4f9d-a287-27a492c24655" CreationDate="2016-03-26T16:14:36.407" UserId="967" Comment="spelling errors" Text="I am trying to decide on a location as the setting for a fairy-lore related MG fantasy novel. As I understand it, different places have differing oral traditions, so in turn many of the fairy tales we know today are associated with certain places or regions – for example (and not limited to fairies), we think of elves as Celtic, trolls as Scandinavian, and vampires as Transylvanian.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thinking of the UK, Ireland and Brittany and their fairies, are different regions associated with different types of fairies? Or are there regions that are more intimately related to fairies than others? Is there, so to speak, a &quot;map of Celtic fairy lore&quot;?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know this information can be deduced from the sources given in folkloric collections, but it would be a Ph.D.'s worth of work to extract that, so I admit I shy away from doing it. But maybe someone has done it, or it is something a native of the UK or France would know?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(I'm not asking about individual fairy tales that mention a specific place, such as the Eildon Hills in Thomas of Erceldoune, but about areas where certain types of stories are more prevalent.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6611" PostHistoryTypeId="11" PostId="1524" RevisionGUID="a56bbf58-ab88-43db-b2c8-757036798383" CreationDate="2016-03-26T18:25:12.193" UserId="108" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;C. M. Weimer&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:967,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;bleh&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:62,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Hamlet&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:111,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;plannapus&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:108,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Semaphore&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="6612" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1524" RevisionGUID="a938c308-8b87-4800-bb32-aa8e48c3adf0" CreationDate="2016-03-26T18:26:24.713" UserId="108" Comment="added 15 characters in body; edited title" Text="The *Drakones indikoi* was a legendary being. The can be found from [here][1]. It says they came from India.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was this creature inspired by a real animal? If so, can anyone tell what me what it is?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Thaumasios/DrakonesIndikoi.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6613" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1524" RevisionGUID="a938c308-8b87-4800-bb32-aa8e48c3adf0" CreationDate="2016-03-26T18:26:24.713" UserId="108" Comment="added 15 characters in body; edited title" Text="What was the inspiration for the Indian Drakon?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6614" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1544" RevisionGUID="66e11b4d-2d13-4678-95d9-0c6b398ff3d4" CreationDate="2016-03-26T20:40:17.580" UserId="1224" Text="Charybdis and its counterpart Skyla were two monsters in the Odyssey. However, according to Ovid's *Metamorphoses*, Skyla was once a nymph. Was Charybdis too once something else? And what did Charybdis do before Skyla?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6615" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1544" RevisionGUID="66e11b4d-2d13-4678-95d9-0c6b398ff3d4" CreationDate="2016-03-26T20:40:17.580" UserId="1224" Text="Was Charybdis always, er Charybdis?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6616" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1544" RevisionGUID="66e11b4d-2d13-4678-95d9-0c6b398ff3d4" CreationDate="2016-03-26T20:40:17.580" UserId="1224" Text="|greek|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6617" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1198" RevisionGUID="1e387c5e-c551-4bb6-a1e4-c84985929377" CreationDate="2016-03-26T21:28:16.840" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 280 characters in body" Text="[Homer][1] describes the stone as being so heavy that, while Sisyphus could carry the stone part of the way up the hill, he would get so tired doing so that he would then drop the stone before he got to the top.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aye, and I saw Sisyphus in violent torment, seeking to raise a monstrous stone with both his hands. [595] Verily he would brace himself with hands and feet, and thrust the stone toward the crest of a hill, but as often as he was about to heave it over the top, the weight would turn it back, and then down again to the plain would come rolling the ruthless stone. But he would strain again and thrust it back, and the sweat [600] flowed down from his limbs, and dust rose up from his head.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've seen a variety of explanations as to &quot;why couldn't he just drop it,&quot; but I don't have a reputable source for these explanations as of right now (presumably because these explanations may not be supported by primary sources). One popular claim is that Sisyphus was promised immortality if he rolled the boulder to the top of the hill. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the simplest explanation (and the one best supported by the primary sources) is that Sisyphus had to push the boulder up the hill because *that was his punishment*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But Sisyphus is **punished** in Hades by rolling a stone with his hands and head in the effort to heave it over the top; but push it as he will, it rebounds backward.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Apollodorus, Library][2])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The image of Sisyphus pushing the bolder up the hill is used by philosophers like Camus as a metaphor for life][3]. Although this is a modern interpretation of an ancient story, it might answer some of the questions people have about it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0136:book=11:card=567&amp;highlight=sisyphus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0022:text=Library:book=1:chapter=9&amp;highlight=punish%2Csisyphus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://dbanach.com/sisyphus.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6618" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1544" RevisionGUID="8b6945ee-9b39-44d5-915c-fd6ad27bd6ee" CreationDate="2016-03-27T01:16:32.887" UserId="967" Comment="Title is vague" Text="Charybdis, and its counterpart Skyla were two monsters in the Odyssey. However, according to Ovid's *Metamorphoses*, Skyla was once a nymph. Was Charybdis too once something else? And what did Charybdis do before Skyla?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6619" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1544" RevisionGUID="8b6945ee-9b39-44d5-915c-fd6ad27bd6ee" CreationDate="2016-03-27T01:16:32.887" UserId="967" Comment="Title is vague" Text="Was Charybdis always a monster?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6620" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1545" RevisionGUID="127258b0-c7ff-42f8-a90d-6d1a7b669758" CreationDate="2016-03-27T02:00:04.613" UserId="967" Text="[Couple of different things.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The ancient Greek scholia on Homer's Odyssey give several different accounts of the origin of Kharybdis. In one she was a daughter of Pontos (Sea) and Gaia (Earth) who laid siege to the land with her waves. Zeus, in anger, captured and chained her to the sea-bed. In another tale, she was a voracious women who stole the cattle of Herakles. For this reason Zeus cast her into the sea with the strike of a thunderbolt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So according to Suidas, she could have &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. been a monster already, who didn't like Zeus, or&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 2. been a woman who stole cattle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, she was speculated to be the goddess of tides.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;KHARYBDIS (or Charybdis) was a sea monster or goddess whose gigantic whirlpool swirled in the straits of Messina, opposite the cliffs of the monster Skylla. She was probably the goddess of the tides, with her triple drawing-expulsion, mentioned by Homer, representing the three high-low tides of the day. Aristotle also clearly identified her with the tides.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So before Skyla, even, she was the goddess of tides, because, well, the tides always happened, right?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://theoi.com/Pontios/Kharybdis.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6621" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1544" RevisionGUID="c5002ade-5e20-4acc-b099-f5556f2d0011" CreationDate="2016-03-27T02:07:04.760" UserId="967" Comment="quote, tags" Text="Charybdis, and its counterpart Skyla were two monsters in the Odyssey. However, according to Ovid's *Metamorphoses*, Skyla was once a nymph.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;... had she not been transformed before they came into a reef whose rocks rise up today, and sailors shun her still and steer away.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was Charybdis too once something else? And what did Charybdis do before Skyla?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6622" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1544" RevisionGUID="c5002ade-5e20-4acc-b099-f5556f2d0011" CreationDate="2016-03-27T02:07:04.760" UserId="967" Comment="quote, tags" Text="|greek|gods|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6623" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1546" RevisionGUID="2cc5c371-6390-40d7-b167-04d74306f3e4" CreationDate="2016-03-27T18:03:25.163" UserId="967" Text="Tantalus, who was a bad person, was sent to the fields of punishment.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He stood in a pool, with a fruit tree above him, but the food and drink would always go away from him when he tried to eat it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what was symbolized of this punishment, to starve and thirst forevermore?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6624" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1546" RevisionGUID="2cc5c371-6390-40d7-b167-04d74306f3e4" CreationDate="2016-03-27T18:03:25.163" UserId="967" Text="What was the symbolism behind Tantalus's punishment?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6625" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1546" RevisionGUID="2cc5c371-6390-40d7-b167-04d74306f3e4" CreationDate="2016-03-27T18:03:25.163" UserId="967" Text="|greek|symbolism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6626" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1547" RevisionGUID="b0d8dbf0-158f-4b1b-9742-e79c7c552ca4" CreationDate="2016-03-27T22:41:24.907" UserId="201" Text="There are two main reasons attributed to Tantalus's punishment, sources from &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.mythindex.com/greek-mythology/T/Tantalus.html&quot;&gt;theoi.com&lt;/a&gt;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - He was invited to Olympus by Zeus, ate the food of the gods (ambrosia&#xD;&#xA;   and nectar), and was given divine secrets, which he then blabbed&#xD;&#xA;   (Hom. Od. xi. 582).&#xD;&#xA; - He wanted to test the gods and see how perceptive they were, so he&#xD;&#xA;   invited them to his home for dinner, and killed his son Pelops and&#xD;&#xA;   cooked and served the boy to the gods. (Hygin. Fab. 83 ; Serv. ad&#xD;&#xA;   Aen. vi. 603, ad Georg. iii. 7.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Theoi mentions other stories which I've never heard before, so I don't know how common they are (including one which says he fell in love with Zeus's cup-bearing boy Ganymede and carried him off!). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In any case, the punishment is that food and drink always seem to be within his grasp but are never attainable, and his two major sins both involved food which should not have been eaten. &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6627" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1548" RevisionGUID="7c0f25a6-ae32-49f0-a626-3545aae6d483" CreationDate="2016-03-28T11:02:18.557" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="As we all know,Greek gods are very lusty and as a result,have demigods.However,in other mythologies are this way as well?The word,'promiscuous&quot; can range from having relationships with other gods,goddesses or mortals before or after marraige,and it would be good if you could list the children born from these divine affairs if there are any." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6628" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1548" RevisionGUID="7c0f25a6-ae32-49f0-a626-3545aae6d483" CreationDate="2016-03-28T11:02:18.557" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Other than the Greek gods,which gods promiscuous and have demigods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6629" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1548" RevisionGUID="7c0f25a6-ae32-49f0-a626-3545aae6d483" CreationDate="2016-03-28T11:02:18.557" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="|demi-gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6630" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1548" RevisionGUID="9723bf26-4ad8-41fc-b697-cd3fed133d22" CreationDate="2016-03-28T13:05:00.127" UserDisplayName="user1385" Comment="deleted 98 characters in body; edited title" Text="As we all know,Greek gods are very lusty and as a result,have demigods.However,in other mythologies are this way as well?It would be good if you could least at least three demigods with different deities as parents from a particular mythology. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6631" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1548" RevisionGUID="9723bf26-4ad8-41fc-b697-cd3fed133d22" CreationDate="2016-03-28T13:05:00.127" UserDisplayName="user1385" Comment="deleted 98 characters in body; edited title" Text="Other than the Greek gods,which godshave demigods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6632" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1548" RevisionGUID="40725bfc-7fc7-43f0-8594-3dc76cc8a388" CreationDate="2016-03-28T13:34:01.420" UserId="967" Comment="spacing, statement" Text="As we all know, Greek gods are very lusty and as a result, have demigods. However, in other mythologies are this way as well? Could you least at least three demigods with different deities as parents from a particular mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6633" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1549" RevisionGUID="64861908-79eb-4a61-9c92-68c8ea225c9a" CreationDate="2016-03-28T17:14:52.223" UserId="42" Text="The word &quot;Demigod&quot; does *not* necessarily refer to the offspring of a god and a mortal.  It's also used to refer to deified mortals, or even just minor deities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Word choice aside, yes, the phenomenon of gods siring children with mortals crops up in many different cultures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Just a few examples (obviously, I am making no attempt at being exhaustive):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Akkadian: Gilgamesh is the classic example.  He's explicitly stated to be part god (2/3) and part man (1/3).  His mother is the goddess Ninsun, his father the mortal Lugalbanda.  Lugalbanda was likely a demigod himself (perhaps accounting for the odd proportion of his divinity).  Ermerkar was a son of the god Utu.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Norse:  The legendary ancestor-kings Sigi, Skjöld, Yngvi and Sæming (among others) are listed and sons of Odin, in the Prologue to the Prose Edda.  Their mothers aren't attested to, but were likely taken to be human.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Irish:  Cúchulainn is a son of Lugh the Long Arm with a human mother, in the Táin Bó Cúailnge.  Diarmuid Ua Duibhne is a son of the god Donn.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Hindu:  The five Pandava Brothers and Karna are the sons of gods with human mothers (from the Mahabharata).  Bhishma is a son of a human king and the goddess Ganga.  Hanuman (prominently featured in the Ramayana) was the son of the godess Anjana.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Christian: I think I'd be remiss not to mention Jesus (son of the Christian God, and Mary).  Note, many Christian's would take issue with the term &quot;demigod&quot;, but as an example of a child of a deity and a mortal, it seems to fit." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6634" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1548" RevisionGUID="02741792-d532-4af2-963f-8418443f2f32" CreationDate="2016-03-28T21:06:41.357" UserId="967" Comment="tense" Text="As we all know, Greek gods were very lusty, and, as a result, had demigods. However, in other mythologies are this way as well? Could you least at least three demigods with different deities as parents from a particular mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6635" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1548" RevisionGUID="02741792-d532-4af2-963f-8418443f2f32" CreationDate="2016-03-28T21:06:41.357" UserId="967" Comment="tense" Text="Other than the Greek gods,which gods had demigods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6636" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1550" RevisionGUID="9ab10fc8-dd48-480c-a910-03a7d0037598" CreationDate="2016-03-28T21:55:33.220" UserId="1386" Text="From what I've gathered fauns and satyrs are pretty much the same thing: they're all male, hircine from the waist down, like wine, women and song, walk around naked all the time and have an affinity for playing woodwind instruments.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are fauns and satyrs actually this much alike or are the differences actually a lot bigger than that?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6637" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1550" RevisionGUID="9ab10fc8-dd48-480c-a910-03a7d0037598" CreationDate="2016-03-28T21:55:33.220" UserId="1386" Text="What are the differences between fauns and satyrs?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6638" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1550" RevisionGUID="9ab10fc8-dd48-480c-a910-03a7d0037598" CreationDate="2016-03-28T21:55:33.220" UserId="1386" Text="|mythical-creatures|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6639" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1550" RevisionGUID="c01d1cf3-0130-41fb-8213-3cc8245656d8" CreationDate="2016-03-28T22:59:13.143" UserId="967" Comment="tags, puncuation" Text="From what I've gathered fauns and satyrs are pretty much the same thing; they're all male, hircine from the waist down, like wine, women and song, walk around naked all the time and have an affinity for playing woodwind instruments.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are fauns and satyrs actually this much alike or are the differences actually a lot bigger than that?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6640" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1550" RevisionGUID="c01d1cf3-0130-41fb-8213-3cc8245656d8" CreationDate="2016-03-28T22:59:13.143" UserId="967" Comment="tags, puncuation" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|comparative|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6641" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1551" RevisionGUID="9e632e8b-b120-48a2-bd1c-60d5c2b4c83f" CreationDate="2016-03-28T23:02:25.363" UserId="967" Text="It was a change that happened in the [Greek mythos transfer.][1] Satyr's were adapted into fauns.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/110/967" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6645" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1552" RevisionGUID="11c479a3-5fde-4e0a-ac6e-fd90a9237b3a" CreationDate="2016-03-30T07:23:19.557" UserId="111" Text="According to [theoi](http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/Satyroi.html), Satyrs are depicted as having:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;the tail of a horse, assine ears, upturned pug noses, reclining hair-lines, and erect members.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another group of 'rustic' spirits called the [Panes](http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/Panes.html) (after the god Pan of course) were, similarly to the Fauns:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  goat-footed men, with the tails, bushy beards, snub noses, pointed ears and horns of a goat. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So in fact the romans Fauns are the equivalent of the greek Panes and not Satyrs. And it was clear, to at least some latin authors, that Fauns and Satyrs were not similar:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;sunt mihi semidei, sunt, rustica numina, nymphae  &#xD;&#xA;**faunique satyrique** et monticolae silvani;  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Ovid, [Metamorphosis](http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/ovid/ovid.met1.shtml), 1, 192-193.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of course both Satyrs and Panes were closely associated with one another as they were both rustic spirits, companions of Dyonysos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, it should be noted that, prior to the &quot;Greek mythos transfer&quot;, italians had two pastoral god/goddess called Faunus and Fauna. Faunus was later equated to Pan, and it might be at this time that he started being represented with goat horns." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6646" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1552" RevisionGUID="a19328af-2e2d-4a9e-97e1-5e42f971cfb7" CreationDate="2016-03-30T07:35:27.570" UserId="111" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body" Text="According to [theoi](http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/Satyroi.html), Satyrs are depicted as having:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;the tail of a horse, assine ears, upturned pug noses, reclining hair-lines, and erect members.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another group of 'rustic' spirits called the [Panes](http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/Panes.html) (after the god Pan of course) were, similarly to the Fauns:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  goat-footed men, with the tails, bushy beards, snub noses, pointed ears and horns of a goat. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So in fact the romans Fauns were closer to the greek Panes than to the Satyrs. And it was clear, to at least some latin authors, that Fauns and Satyrs were not similar:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;sunt mihi semidei, sunt, rustica numina, nymphae  &#xD;&#xA;**faunique satyrique** et monticolae silvani;  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Ovid, [Metamorphosis](http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/ovid/ovid.met1.shtml), 1, 192-193.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of course both Satyrs and Panes were closely associated with one another as they were both rustic spirits, companions of Dyonysos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, it should be noted that, prior to the &quot;Greek mythos transfer&quot;, italians had two pastoral god/goddess called Faunus and Fauna. Faunus was later equated to Pan, and it might be at this time that he started being represented with goat horns." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6647" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1553" RevisionGUID="d154b8fd-dbea-4b1f-8801-fb960f61a16d" CreationDate="2016-03-30T08:02:14.517" UserId="1358" Text="You might find this interesting:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/mar/29/siberian-unicorn-extinct-humans-fossil-kazakhstan" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6649" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1549" RevisionGUID="e25f57ec-d83f-47a8-af42-4dbad2d87702" CreationDate="2016-03-30T16:42:04.220" UserId="42" Comment="deleted 9 characters in body" Text="The word &quot;Demigod&quot; does *not* necessarily refer to the offspring of a god and a mortal.  It's also used to refer to deified mortals, or even just minor deities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Word choice aside, yes, the phenomenon of gods siring children with mortals crops up in many different cultures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Just a few examples (obviously, I am making no attempt at being exhaustive):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Akkadian: Gilgamesh is the classic example.  He's explicitly stated to be part god (2/3) and part man (1/3).  His mother is the goddess Ninsun, his father the mortal Lugalbanda.  Lugalbanda was likely a demigod himself (perhaps accounting for the odd proportion of his divinity).  Enmerkar was a son of the god Utu.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Norse:  The legendary ancestor-kings Sigi, Skjöld, Yngvi and Sæming (among others) are listed as sons of Odin, in the Prologue to the Prose Edda.  Their mothers aren't attested to, but were likely taken to be human.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Irish:  Cúchulainn is a son of Lugh the Long Arm with a human mother, in the Táin Bó Cúailnge.  Diarmuid Ua Duibhne is a son of the god Donn.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Hindu:  The five Pandava Brothers and Karna are the sons of gods with human mothers (from the Mahabharata).  Bhishma is a son of a human king and the goddess Ganga.  Hanuman (prominently featured in the Ramayana) was the son of the godess Anjana.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Christian: I think I'd be remiss not to mention Jesus (son of the Christian God, and Mary).  Note, many Christian's would take issue with the term &quot;demigod&quot;, but as an example of a child of a deity and a mortal, it fits." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6651" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1555" RevisionGUID="dabea483-4a6a-4f7b-ad44-9ffb1341b992" CreationDate="2016-03-30T22:45:55.693" UserId="967" Text="Although this is likely to be closed, were there any other Mythos Transfers, other than the Greek-Roman transfer?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The greek-roman mythos transfer was basically an adaption of ideas from greek to roman." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6652" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1555" RevisionGUID="dabea483-4a6a-4f7b-ad44-9ffb1341b992" CreationDate="2016-03-30T22:45:55.693" UserId="967" Text="Were there any other Mythos Transfers, other than the Greek-Roman transfer?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6653" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1555" RevisionGUID="dabea483-4a6a-4f7b-ad44-9ffb1341b992" CreationDate="2016-03-30T22:45:55.693" UserId="967" Text="|myth-identification|mythos-transfer|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6654" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1497" RevisionGUID="78a85ba6-b76f-46be-8f8a-35685230d32b" CreationDate="2016-03-30T22:47:35.077" UserId="967" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="Athena never did.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;There was also an account, stating that Prometheus had created men out of earth and water, at the very beginning of the human race, or after the flood of Deucalion, when Zeus is said to have ordered him and Athena to make men out of the mud, and the winds to breathe life into them (Apollod. i. 7. § 1; Ov. Met. i. 81; Etym. Mag. s. v. Promêtheus). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[Theoi][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So she was the one creating them with Prometheus, not breathing life into them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanPrometheus.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6655" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1496" RevisionGUID="bd8c89e8-23bc-4dca-98cd-fd6883f36e2b" CreationDate="2016-03-30T22:47:56.250" UserId="967" Comment="unneeded stuff, question" Text="I have seen many books and papers reference Athena breathing life into the man Prometheus molded out of clay, but I couldn't find any primary sources of this happening, and I couldn't find any good explanations. Why did Athena breathe life into the man Prometheus created?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6656" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1556" RevisionGUID="40786e9b-75da-4177-8bbc-524a6fd7069e" CreationDate="2016-03-30T23:07:52.907" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="Yes. Ideas (not just &quot;myths&quot; or &quot;mythos&quot;) spread from one culture to another all of the time. When two cultures come into contact with each other (or even when two people come into contact with each other), they inevitably share ideas with each other. I would give examples, but this happens so frequently, so I'm not quite sure what doing so would accomplish.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I suppose that by &quot;mythos transfers&quot; you mean one culture adopting another cultures &quot;mythology&quot; (more accurately religion). The answer is again yes, although you should get more specific about what you mean by &quot;mythos transfers.&quot; &quot;Mythos transfers&quot; occur throughout history for a variety of reasons. I suppose one example of a &quot;mythos transfer&quot; would be European conquistadors converting those they conquer to Christianity. Another example would be Buddhism spreading from India to China. Again, this occurs for many different reasons, so you really should be more specific about what you mean by &quot;mythos transfer.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(You should know that &quot;mythos transfer&quot; is a completely nonsensical and made up phrase. Also, in this case you are talking less about mythology and more about religion.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6657" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1555" RevisionGUID="a16a5912-f8db-4713-88d6-c2e3602dc1ca" CreationDate="2016-03-30T23:12:08.270" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="let's avoid giving &quot;mythos-transfer&quot; a tag" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6658" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1555" RevisionGUID="3148f733-dca6-4131-8dd1-46e67548c3ee" CreationDate="2016-03-30T23:18:27.983" UserId="967" Comment="deleted 38 characters in body" Text="Were there any other Mythos Transfers, other than the Greek-Roman transfer?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The greek-roman mythos transfer was basically an adaption of ideas from greek to roman." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6661" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="15" RevisionGUID="a9fddde2-3e6c-4340-90eb-fd051de2b8a5" CreationDate="2016-03-30T23:37:31.673" UserId="967" Comment="tag change, clarifications" Text="It is well-known today that many peoples trace their origin back to a group of people known as the Proto-Indo-Europeans, who probably lived c. 4000 BCE. Among them are some of the most mythologically-rich cultures in the world - most of Europe (including the Greeks and Romans); northern India; and also the Persians. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Much work has been done in reconstructing the shared language of the Proto-Indo-European people; what about their mythology? I am aware of some weak but well-substantiated connections, such as the fact that the Norse Æsir and the Hindu Asuras were probably the same group of beings at one point. Have we managed to reconstruct any narratives that putatively are derived from common Proto-Indo-European myths?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6662" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="15" RevisionGUID="a9fddde2-3e6c-4340-90eb-fd051de2b8a5" CreationDate="2016-03-30T23:37:31.673" UserId="967" Comment="tag change, clarifications" Text="|comparative|proto-indo-euro|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6663" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="366" RevisionGUID="c976a2d8-d871-499f-b831-fb890e7fa8c7" CreationDate="2016-03-30T23:37:39.353" UserId="111" Comment="added 6 characters in body" Text="Use this tag for questions about history as represented in mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6664" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="366" RevisionGUID="c976a2d8-d871-499f-b831-fb890e7fa8c7" CreationDate="2016-03-30T23:37:39.353" Comment="Proposed by 111 approved by 42, 62 edit id of 314" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6665" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1555" RevisionGUID="c7d3d9e2-98ef-4ccc-b171-077e383aa99a" CreationDate="2016-03-31T21:49:58.180" UserId="967" Comment="added 79 characters in body; edited title" Text="Were there any other Mythos Transfers, other than the Greek-Roman transfer?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To clarify, I mean an almost complete copy of another religion/myth system.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The greek-roman mythos transfer was basically an adaption of ideas from greek to roman." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6666" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1555" RevisionGUID="c7d3d9e2-98ef-4ccc-b171-077e383aa99a" CreationDate="2016-03-31T21:49:58.180" UserId="967" Comment="added 79 characters in body; edited title" Text="Were there any other &quot;Mythos Transfers&quot;, other than the Greek-Roman transfer?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6667" PostHistoryTypeId="8" PostId="15" RevisionGUID="e26a6202-2017-407b-a1ed-f270deb12e7e" CreationDate="2016-04-01T06:33:41.733" UserId="57" Comment="Rollback to [c94f8250-ca7f-46a9-bd7a-c0fe047e41ae]" Text="It is well-known today that many peoples trace their origin back to a group of people known as the Proto-Indo-Europeans, who probably lived c. 4000 BCE. Among them are some of the most mythologically-rich cultures in the world - most of Europe (including the Greeks and Romans); northern India; and also the Persians. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Much work has been done in reconstructing the shared language of the PIE people; what about their mythology? I am aware of some weak but well-substantiated connections, such as the fact that the Norse Æsir and the Hindu Asuras were probably the same group of beings at one point. Have we managed to reconstruct any narratives that putatively are derived from common PIE myths?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6668" PostHistoryTypeId="9" PostId="15" RevisionGUID="e26a6202-2017-407b-a1ed-f270deb12e7e" CreationDate="2016-04-01T06:33:41.733" UserId="57" Comment="Rollback to [c94f8250-ca7f-46a9-bd7a-c0fe047e41ae]" Text="|comparative|" />
  <row Id="6669" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1211" RevisionGUID="4a32c6fb-854f-40e4-9cb1-6f1b296e04d4" CreationDate="2016-04-01T21:05:41.693" UserId="967" Comment="spacing" Text="The Hippogriff is said to be the symbol of the Greek god Apollo.  A Hippogriff is a  mixture of a horse and an eagle/griffin. There are some practices that consider the Hippogriff a symbol of love. This is because the parents of a Hippogriff, (Griffin and the Mare) are natural enemies. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When was the Hippogriff  introduced as part of mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6676" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1558" RevisionGUID="15307ca2-a5c8-4c52-8aa2-37262f1e49dd" CreationDate="2016-04-02T21:55:40.740" UserId="967" Text="So, the earliest werewolf I can find is in Greek times. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://www.theoi.com/Heros/Lykaon.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But, was there ever an earlier werewolf myth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6677" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1558" RevisionGUID="15307ca2-a5c8-4c52-8aa2-37262f1e49dd" CreationDate="2016-04-02T21:55:40.740" UserId="967" Text="What was the earliest werewolf myth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6678" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1558" RevisionGUID="15307ca2-a5c8-4c52-8aa2-37262f1e49dd" CreationDate="2016-04-02T21:55:40.740" UserId="967" Text="|mythical-creatures|comparative|werewolves|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6684" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1561" RevisionGUID="2982f052-5a2a-4cad-8f7e-ff94cccbd6ec" CreationDate="2016-04-04T12:37:35.943" UserId="1415" Text="There's a wolf transformation in the Epic of Gilgamesh, and as written texts go they don't come any earlier. Although in this case it was a spell cast upon him and he never had a chance to transform back into human form.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://www.werewolves.com/gilgamesh/&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There may of course be earlier oral mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6686" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1562" RevisionGUID="24eebd35-df80-4c85-a275-109d169644ac" CreationDate="2016-04-04T16:25:00.250" UserId="1417" Text="This is a question across all pantheons and mythologies. Overall what is the easiest way to become a god? It should be an one-time act. But perhaps for simplicity sake we can use immortality as the main attribute of godhood.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So we do not count being born a god; neither being made a god by the other gods, given how fickle they are; nor the continued use of Idun's apples." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6687" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1562" RevisionGUID="24eebd35-df80-4c85-a275-109d169644ac" CreationDate="2016-04-04T16:25:00.250" UserId="1417" Text="What is the easiest way to become a god?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6688" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1562" RevisionGUID="24eebd35-df80-4c85-a275-109d169644ac" CreationDate="2016-04-04T16:25:00.250" UserId="1417" Text="|comparative|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6689" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1558" RevisionGUID="5fa7b48b-5259-489b-8473-f4cdcd53ae3d" CreationDate="2016-04-04T19:01:06.560" UserId="1420" Comment="Use appropriate link text" Text="So, [the earliest werewolf I can find][1] is in Greek times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But, was there ever an earlier werewolf myth?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Heros/Lykaon.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6690" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1558" RevisionGUID="5fa7b48b-5259-489b-8473-f4cdcd53ae3d" CreationDate="2016-04-04T19:01:06.560" Comment="Proposed by 1420 approved by 967 edit id of 315" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6691" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1562" RevisionGUID="c3e770da-85d4-4047-bda4-af470860638f" CreationDate="2016-04-04T21:15:31.683" UserId="1417" Comment="expanded" Text="This is a question across all pantheons and mythologies. Overall what is the easiest way to become a god? It should be an one-time act. But perhaps for simplicity sake we can use immortality as the main attribute of godhood.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So we do not count being born a god; neither being made a god by the other gods, given how fickle they are; nor the continued use of Idun's apples.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;EDIT:&#xD;&#xA;Alright, so some more information for better understanding.&#xD;&#xA;The standard way to become a god is through apotheosis (or currently divinization).  This is however only after death. Remember Hercules, Roman Emperors, the Chinese Emperors, various Saints...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What I am looking for is quite similar to Gilgamesh's quest for immortality. He did find a plant that at least restored youth.&#xD;&#xA;Or sometimes Ambrosia is described as granting not only immortality, but making a god out of a mortal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also in Taoism humans are able to gain immortality and god-like powers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So I ask again, across the plethora of mythologies that exist in the world, what is the easiest way a mortal can become a god?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I truly have to draw a parallel with Gilgamesh and his search for immortality here.&#xD;&#xA;First he visits Utnapishtim, whose type of immortality is ideal, but was a gift from a god, so not easily obtainable.&#xD;&#xA;I am unsure if successfully passing Utnapishtim's test would have led to something, but this appears to me as the most easiest way.&#xD;&#xA;Then there is the Ur-shanabi, which is probably the same thing as ambrosia, Idun's apples, but we cannot be sure, so it could be an solution.&#xD;&#xA;Finally we have the solution of cultural immortality, which is for me not a solution at all, given that he feared to become a forgotten rotting corpse, and become a remembered rotting corpse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what if Gilgamesh was more open minded and cunning. Why settle for immortality when you can become a god? Why limit the search in Mesopotamia, when there is the whole world.&#xD;&#xA;Within all the world religions what is the easiest way to become a god?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6692" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1562" RevisionGUID="afee1bd6-dd00-44a5-9d3e-172fe2a2004b" CreationDate="2016-04-04T23:13:33.400" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|comparative|myth-identification|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6694" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1564" RevisionGUID="d74e2194-fb58-49b2-9840-346241e0d39a" CreationDate="2016-04-05T00:19:42.883" UserId="1424" Text="also you could drink from the holy grail but it is extremely hard to find in king Arthur legend and you needed to quest for it" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6703" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1568" RevisionGUID="1fcda1f8-28be-4c14-ab49-5e084fc9e083" CreationDate="2016-04-05T14:26:42.083" UserId="1415" Text="Immortality and divinity aren't synonymous. Aside from those you've ruled out, the easiest and quickest war to become a god would be to possess some great magical ability and use it for an epic act. This still would be no guarantee of reverence however. In general becoming deified and being worshipped as a god is a much more difficult path, and usually is conferred after death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the case of most major beliefs it is a combination of charisma, great works, original teachings, and transcendence to a higher plane. Think Jesus or Buddha (in some schools of Buddhism). Most recently Elvis upon death (or alleged death) has received a sort of god-like status, although some consider this to be more of a sainthood. Ghandi also pledged subservience to multiple religions so has achieved more of a saintly status.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The major case of a living god I can think of is Haile Selassie being worshipped in Rastafari as a reincarnation of Jesus, though this is also due to how he lived his life to that point, so again not what you would call easy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Dalai Llama is conferred quite early in life, although I wouldn't necessarily say he is considered a god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The other way is by starting a cult. This generally only makes you a god, or reincarnation of one, to a few people. It's small scale, but still divinity of sorts, and comes with plenty of perks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;What's the easiest way to become immortal?&quot; Would be a whole different question. My answer to that would be to kill someone famous." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6704" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1568" RevisionGUID="ca703b3d-d719-4cce-b961-fb6111396e82" CreationDate="2016-04-05T14:38:13.273" UserId="1415" Comment="added 195 characters in body" Text="Immortality and divinity aren't synonymous. Aside from those you've ruled out, the easiest and quickest war to become a god would be to possess some great magical ability and use it for an epic act. This still would be no guarantee of reverence however. The Greek, Norse, or Hindi gods are not only powerful immportal beings, what makes them gods is that they are also worshipped, often after conferring some favour on the mortals who worship them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In general becoming deified and being worshipped as a god is a much more difficult path, and usually is conferred after death. In the case of most major beliefs it is a combination of charisma, great works, original teachings, and transcendence to a higher plane. Think Jesus or Buddha (in some schools of Buddhism). Most recently Elvis upon death (or alleged death) has received a sort of god-like status, although some consider this to be more of a sainthood. Ghandi also pledged subservience to multiple religions so has achieved more of a saintly status.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The major case of a living god I can think of is Haile Selassie being worshipped in Rastafari as a reincarnation of Jesus, though this is also due to how he lived his life to that point, so again not what you would call easy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Dalai Llama is conferred quite early in life, although I wouldn't necessarily say he is considered a god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The other way is by starting a cult. This generally only makes you a god, or reincarnation of one, to a few people. It's small scale, but still divinity of sorts, and comes with plenty of perks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A final way is to create a species or even a whole world. Frankenstein was the god of Adam. The founders in Star Trek are the gods of the Vorta and the Jem'Hadar&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;What's the easiest way to become immortal?&quot; Would be a whole different question. My answer to that would be to kill someone famous." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6705" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1569" RevisionGUID="247d0506-39db-454e-b73d-d878273fdea6" CreationDate="2016-04-05T14:41:46.930" UserId="1427" Text="Your question reminded me of another myth - maybe you mixed up the two?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herodot describes a dialogue between Croesus and Solon on happiness:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;King Croesus is proud of his riches and considers himself the happiest man in the world. He aks the wise man Solon whether he has seen any other man happier then himself.&#xD;&#xA;Solon answers that he knows of King Tellos who was not only happy because he ruled over a peaceful and prosperous kingdom but also died gloriously in battle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;King Croesus then asks him who might be the second most happy man in the world, sure that he must be the one.&#xD;&#xA;Solon answers that once there were two sons. Their mother needed to go by cart to a temple but the oxen which were supposed to pull the cart were still on the field and would never make it back on time. So the two sons went and pulled the cart instead to the temple. The whole crowd in front of the temple admired their devotion to their mother and their mother praid to the goddess to grant her children happiness. All went to sleep but the two sons never woke up. They died in the moment of highest glory. The villagers praised them and built them statues.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Croesus becomes irritated and now asks Solon directly what the wise man thinks of his riches. Solon replies with the proverbial phrase to never judge a person's happiness before one sees how he ends. Croesus becomes angry but indeed, a few days after the wise man leaves, all kinds of distasters strike the king. His son dies in an accident and he looses a battle against the Persian king. Thinking of the wise man's words he cries out his name 'Solon, Solon, Solon!'. The Persian king asks him about the meaning of this, hears the story and is so impressed that he spares Croesus life and even makes him his counselor. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Bottom line: to die in the moment of highest happiness (granted by glory/youth/...) is itself a thing of happiness. Perhaps a variation of this also exists as a myth referring to Apollo. And I think I know of some more variations (athletes who die in the moment of their victory etc.) but can't remember, whether they, too, were an example of Solon or in a separate story." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6706" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1568" RevisionGUID="0d7952e1-2e97-472c-9056-198055376838" CreationDate="2016-04-05T14:44:53.250" UserId="1415" Comment="added 13 characters in body" Text="Immortality and divinity aren't synonymous. Aside from those you've ruled out, the easiest and quickest war to become a god would be to possess some great magical ability and use it for an epic act. This still would be no guarantee of reverence however. The gods of the great polytheistic religions are not only powerful immortal beings, what makes them gods is that they are also worshipped, often after conferring some favour on the mortals who worship them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In general becoming deified and being worshipped as a god is a much more difficult path, and usually is conferred after death. In the case of most major beliefs it is a combination of charisma, great works, original teachings, and transcendence to a higher plane. Think Jesus or Buddha (in some schools of Buddhism). Most recently Elvis upon death (or alleged death) has received a sort of god-like status, although some consider this to be more of a sainthood. Ghandi also pledged subservience to multiple religions so has achieved more of a saintly status.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The major case of a living god I can think of is Haile Selassie being worshipped in Rastafari as a reincarnation of Jesus, though this is also due to how he lived his life to that point, so again not what you would call easy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Dalai Llama is conferred quite early in life, although I wouldn't necessarily say he is considered a god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The other way is by starting a cult. This generally only makes you a god, or reincarnation of one, to a few people. It's small scale, but still divinity of sorts, and comes with plenty of perks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A final way is to create a species or even a whole world. Frankenstein was the god of Adam. The founders in Star Trek are the gods of the Vorta and the Jem'Hadar&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;What's the easiest way to become immortal?&quot; Would be a whole different question. My answer to that would be to kill someone famous." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6707" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1568" RevisionGUID="2f97a9a4-67c3-4e04-bad3-619976a767bf" CreationDate="2016-04-05T19:08:58.900" UserId="1415" Comment="added 131 characters in body" Text="Immortality and divinity aren't synonymous. Aside from those you've ruled out, the easiest and quickest war to become a god would be to possess some great magical ability and use it for an epic act. This still would be no guarantee of reverence however. The gods of the great polytheistic religions are not only powerful immortal beings, what makes them gods is that they are also worshipped, often after conferring some favour on the mortals who worship them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In general becoming deified and being worshipped as a god is a much more difficult path, and usually is conferred after death. In the case of most major beliefs it is a combination of charisma, great works, original teachings, and transcendence to a higher plane. Think Jesus or Buddha (in some schools of Buddhism). Most recently Elvis upon death (or alleged death) has received a sort of god-like status, although some consider this to be more of a sainthood. Ghandi also pledged subservience to multiple religions so has achieved more of a saintly status.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The major case of a living god I can think of is Haile Selassie being worshipped in Rastafari as a reincarnation of Jesus, though this is also due to how he lived his life to that point, so again not what you would call easy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Dalai Llama is conferred quite early in life, although I wouldn't necessarily say he is considered a god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The other way is by starting a cult. This generally only makes you a god, or reincarnation of one, to a few people. It's small scale, but still divinity of sorts, and comes with plenty of perks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another way is to embody an archetype, as it is with many polytheistic gods. A modern example might be Hendrix as a guitar god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A final way is to create a species or even a whole world. Frankenstein was the god of Adam. The founders in Star Trek are the gods of the Vorta and the Jem'Hadar&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;What's the easiest way to become immortal?&quot; Would be a whole different question. My answer to that would be to kill someone famous." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6708" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1570" RevisionGUID="e35dca19-377b-4eea-a662-e6d89b02d441" CreationDate="2016-04-05T20:04:43.187" UserId="1424" Text="and also wouldn't the demigods mother technically be the mother in law of Zeus' offspring?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6709" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1570" RevisionGUID="e35dca19-377b-4eea-a662-e6d89b02d441" CreationDate="2016-04-05T20:04:43.187" UserId="1424" Text="since in greek mythology there are sons of zeus as demigods are they brothers of all the godly sons and daughters of zeus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6710" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1570" RevisionGUID="e35dca19-377b-4eea-a662-e6d89b02d441" CreationDate="2016-04-05T20:04:43.187" UserId="1424" Text="|greek|demi-gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6711" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1571" RevisionGUID="27c92c6c-628d-4a99-8445-22c468d3856f" CreationDate="2016-04-05T20:26:06.023" UserId="1415" Text="The Demigods and the Godly offspring of Zeus would be half-siblings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The title step-mother comes by marriage, at the very least in the common law sense, however most of Zeus's special lady friends were mistresses or one night stands.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is all without going in to some of the more curious reproductive methods." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6712" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="658" RevisionGUID="7f40ce95-1fba-4a61-a885-9a330be17eb2" CreationDate="2016-04-05T21:14:39.383" UserId="183" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:183,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;HDE 226868&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="6713" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="867" RevisionGUID="d2f8ab6c-b7d0-44d7-8b03-b85c42e02b2a" CreationDate="2016-04-05T21:14:56.993" UserId="1424" Comment="i have named the &quot;female wolf&quot;" Text="The story of [Romulus and Remus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romulus_and_Remus) involves the abandoned twins surviving out of chance, being helped by, among others, Lupa a female wolf, who suckles them. They are later taken in by a shepherd, Faustulus, and his wife, Acca Larentia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia says&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Another and probably late tradition has Acca Larentia as a sacred prostitute (one of many Roman slangs for prostitute was lupa (she-wolf)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The double use of &quot;she-wolf&quot; seems to be a very curious coincidence. Is there a connection between Lupa, who suckled the twins and Acca Larentia?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6714" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="867" RevisionGUID="d2f8ab6c-b7d0-44d7-8b03-b85c42e02b2a" CreationDate="2016-04-05T21:14:56.993" Comment="Proposed by 1424 approved by 967, 183 edit id of 316" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6715" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1570" RevisionGUID="5e784f73-ec53-4b31-baab-dd29c6b33dcc" CreationDate="2016-04-05T21:41:21.313" UserId="967" Comment="clarifications" Text="Since in Greek mythology, there are sons of Zeus as demigods, are they brothers of all the godly sons and daughters of Zeus?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, wouldn't the demigod's mother technically be the mother in law of Zeus' offspring?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6716" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1570" RevisionGUID="5e784f73-ec53-4b31-baab-dd29c6b33dcc" CreationDate="2016-04-05T21:41:21.313" UserId="967" Comment="clarifications" Text="Were all the sons of Zeus brothers of all the godly sons and daughters of Zeus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6717" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1572" RevisionGUID="84198ce9-8a32-445a-94f3-e397153e936e" CreationDate="2016-04-06T00:01:36.943" UserId="140" Text="When Ragnarok comes what are the dwarves up to? What happens to them?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6718" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1572" RevisionGUID="84198ce9-8a32-445a-94f3-e397153e936e" CreationDate="2016-04-06T00:01:36.943" UserId="140" Text="What happens to the Dwarves during Ragnarok?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6719" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1572" RevisionGUID="84198ce9-8a32-445a-94f3-e397153e936e" CreationDate="2016-04-06T00:01:36.943" UserId="140" Text="|norse|ragnarok|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6720" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1573" RevisionGUID="9ec94c39-9898-43c8-a593-e889febeaba3" CreationDate="2016-04-06T02:03:29.350" UserId="1430" Text="The closest I've found would be something like the Prometheus myth, or perhaps even the story of Eden, where man is punished by deity for poking his nose where it doesn't belong. But this isn't exactly critical of technology or civilization, at most it's saying that (some) knowledge is dangerous for people to have.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm thinking more along the lines of the myth at the end of Plato's Phaedrus (274b-279b), which he attributes to the Egyptians but which I've never found elsewhere. In it, the god Thoth approaches the god-king Thamus offering his invention of the technology of writing, suggesting that it will improve mankind's memory. Far from it, Thamus replies, in fact it will have just the opposite effect since men will become dependent on it and lose their natural capacity for memory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does anyone here know of similar myths which are skeptical or perhaps even critical of technology or civilization? I realize they might be few and far between, but surely at some point some culture must have had a similar thought.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6721" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1573" RevisionGUID="9ec94c39-9898-43c8-a593-e889febeaba3" CreationDate="2016-04-06T02:03:29.350" UserId="1430" Text="Anyone know of myths which are critical/skeptical of civilization or technology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6722" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1573" RevisionGUID="9ec94c39-9898-43c8-a593-e889febeaba3" CreationDate="2016-04-06T02:03:29.350" UserId="1430" Text="|greek|myth-identification|egyptian|abrahamic-religions|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6723" PostHistoryTypeId="12" PostId="1564" RevisionGUID="5b97cc3a-69ac-4408-9082-371eb71e69d2" CreationDate="2016-04-06T05:51:45.993" UserId="1424" Comment="via Vote" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:1424,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Lachi Dunwoodie&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="6736" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="1562" RevisionGUID="96763320-0ed6-461c-95bf-0d84a06385c6" CreationDate="2016-04-06T23:21:22.630" UserId="183" Comment="104" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:42,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;femtoRgon&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:967,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;bleh&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:62,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Hamlet&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:183,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;HDE 226868&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="6737" PostHistoryTypeId="13" PostId="1564" RevisionGUID="83f9fe2e-5a72-41d5-b401-8c848b3bfaf4" CreationDate="2016-04-07T01:53:06.907" UserId="1424" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:1424,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Lachi Dunwoodie&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="6738" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1564" RevisionGUID="0eea769e-aca5-4329-adc6-09da0b9c8184" CreationDate="2016-04-07T01:54:49.863" UserId="1424" Comment="added 76 characters in body" Text="also you could drink from the holy grail but it is extremely hard to find in king Arthur legend and you needed to quest for it (most of the nights that quested died) not that easy but relatively simple." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6740" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1576" RevisionGUID="7d93f3a6-6d6e-441c-8dd8-7cf088416863" CreationDate="2016-04-07T08:10:13.753" UserId="111" Text="The only mention of Dwarves during Ragnarokr I can find is this strange stanza (n°48) from the [*Völuspá*](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda/V%C3%B6lusp%C3%A1) (which can be found as well in the *Gylfaginning*):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 48. What's with the Aesir?  &#xD;&#xA;What's with the Elf’s?  &#xD;&#xA;Resound all Jotun-homes;  &#xD;&#xA;Aesir are at the council,  &#xD;&#xA;stand the Dwarfs  &#xD;&#xA;before the stony door,  &#xD;&#xA;rock-wall wise.  &#xD;&#xA;Understand ye yet, or what?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meaning I guess either that they are hiding or that they are attending the Aesir's council?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [*Gylfaginning*](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning), another mention of one dwarf (Lit) can be found during Baldr's funeral but it is frankly even weirder:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Balder's corspe was borne out on the ship; and when his wife, Nanna, daughter of Nep, saw this, her heart was broken with grief and she died. She was borne to the funeral-pile and cast on the fire. Thor stood by and hallowed the pile with Mjolner. Before his feet ran a dwarf, whose name is Lit. Him Thor kicked with his foot and dashed him into the fire, and he, too, was burned. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6741" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1576" RevisionGUID="5691dd4c-a30b-45d7-8b34-590a30198a7e" CreationDate="2016-04-07T08:37:24.220" UserId="111" Comment="added 252 characters in body" Text="The only mention of Dwarves during Ragnarokr I can find is this strange stanza (n°48) from the [*Völuspá*](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda/V%C3%B6lusp%C3%A1) (which can be found as well in the *Gylfaginning*):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 48. What's with the Aesir?  &#xD;&#xA;What's with the Elf’s?  &#xD;&#xA;Resound all Jotun-homes;  &#xD;&#xA;Aesir are at the council,  &#xD;&#xA;stand the Dwarfs  &#xD;&#xA;before the stony door,  &#xD;&#xA;rock-wall wise.  &#xD;&#xA;Understand ye yet, or what?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This passage was alternatively [translated](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe03.htm) by Henry Adams Bellows the following way:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 48. How fare the gods? | how fare the elves?  &#xD;&#xA;All Jotunheim groans, | the gods are at council;  &#xD;&#xA;Loud roar the dwarfs | by the doors of stone,  &#xD;&#xA;The masters of the rocks: | would you know yet more?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [*Gylfaginning*](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning), another mention of one dwarf (Lit) can be found during Baldr's funeral but it is frankly even weirder:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Balder's corspe was borne out on the ship; and when his wife, Nanna, daughter of Nep, saw this, her heart was broken with grief and she died. She was borne to the funeral-pile and cast on the fire. Thor stood by and hallowed the pile with Mjolner. Before his feet ran a dwarf, whose name is Lit. Him Thor kicked with his foot and dashed him into the fire, and he, too, was burned. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6742" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1576" RevisionGUID="42a53f83-aed2-4136-bdb5-2bf746ba0935" CreationDate="2016-04-07T11:31:48.037" UserId="111" Comment="added 231 characters in body" Text="The only mention of Dwarves during Ragnarokr I can find is this strange stanza (n°48) from the [*Völuspá*](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda/V%C3%B6lusp%C3%A1) (which can be found as well in the *Gylfaginning*):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 48. What's with the Aesir?  &#xD;&#xA;What's with the Elf’s?  &#xD;&#xA;Resound all Jotun-homes;  &#xD;&#xA;Aesir are at the council,  &#xD;&#xA;stand the Dwarfs  &#xD;&#xA;before the stony door,  &#xD;&#xA;rock-wall wise.  &#xD;&#xA;Understand ye yet, or what?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This passage was alternatively [translated](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe03.htm) by Henry Adams Bellows the following way:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 48. How fare the gods? | how fare the elves?  &#xD;&#xA;All Jotunheim groans, | the gods are at council;  &#xD;&#xA;Loud roar the dwarfs | by the doors of stone,  &#xD;&#xA;The masters of the rocks: | would you know yet more?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm not sure about what this stanza means but temporally it stands after the one in which Heimdall blows the horn to call everyone for the last battle (stanza 46), but before the one in which Odin is killed by Fenrir (stanza 53).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [*Gylfaginning*](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning), another mention of one dwarf (Lit) can be found during Baldr's funeral but it is frankly even weirder:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Balder's corspe was borne out on the ship; and when his wife, Nanna, daughter of Nep, saw this, her heart was broken with grief and she died. She was borne to the funeral-pile and cast on the fire. Thor stood by and hallowed the pile with Mjolner. Before his feet ran a dwarf, whose name is Lit. Him Thor kicked with his foot and dashed him into the fire, and he, too, was burned. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6743" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1576" RevisionGUID="3fabb84a-bc09-40fb-a9a1-60f0d62e2549" CreationDate="2016-04-07T12:49:19.207" UserId="111" Comment="added 64 characters in body" Text="The only mention of Dwarves during Ragnarokr I can find is this strange stanza (n°48) from the [*Völuspá*](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda/V%C3%B6lusp%C3%A1) (which can be found as well in the *Gylfaginning*):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 48. What's with the Aesir?  &#xD;&#xA;What's with the Elf’s?  &#xD;&#xA;Resound all Jotun-homes;  &#xD;&#xA;Aesir are at the council,  &#xD;&#xA;stand the Dwarfs  &#xD;&#xA;before the stony door,  &#xD;&#xA;rock-wall wise.  &#xD;&#xA;Understand ye yet, or what?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This passage was alternatively [translated](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe03.htm) by Henry Adams Bellows the following way:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 48. How fare the gods? | how fare the elves?  &#xD;&#xA;All Jotunheim groans, | the gods are at council;  &#xD;&#xA;Loud roar the dwarfs | by the doors of stone,  &#xD;&#xA;The masters of the rocks: | would you know yet more?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm not sure about what this stanza means but temporally it stands after the one in which Heimdall blows the horn to call everyone for the last battle (stanza 46), but before the one in which Odin is killed by Fenrir (stanza 53).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [*Gylfaginning*](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning), another mention of one dwarf (Lit) can be found during Baldr's funeral (Baldr murder being the event from which the Ragnarokr unfolds) but it is frankly even weirder:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Balder's corspe was borne out on the ship; and when his wife, Nanna, daughter of Nep, saw this, her heart was broken with grief and she died. She was borne to the funeral-pile and cast on the fire. Thor stood by and hallowed the pile with Mjolner. Before his feet ran a dwarf, whose name is Lit. Him Thor kicked with his foot and dashed him into the fire, and he, too, was burned. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6744" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1577" RevisionGUID="82cf9bb1-8c1a-4a21-b72e-23277800ebfb" CreationDate="2016-04-07T17:50:54.503" UserId="565" Text="In ancient Greek society, which Olympus largely models, a distinction was made between half-siblings through the father and half-siblings through the mother: they had a differing legal statuses  The former were allowed to intermarry, for instance;  that latter were not allowed.  Step-mothers had little or no binding authority over step-children, but that's not unexpected since mothers had little legal authority over their biological children.  The relationship between Hippolytus and Phaedra, for example, was more typical than that between Herakles and Hera (Herakles was bound to his stepmother for exceptional reasons)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6745" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1578" RevisionGUID="765e2c25-62a2-462f-a806-7ee45db74b9b" CreationDate="2016-04-07T19:22:16.060" UserId="1177" Text="The myth of Cain and Abel is about the rivalry between nomadic cattle-breeders and sedentary farmers. God accepts Abel’s sacrifice of a sheep, but rejects Cain's offering of plants." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6746" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1579" RevisionGUID="8de76dc2-fe2e-427d-92a3-46585d62a795" CreationDate="2016-04-07T20:40:07.460" UserId="292" Text="The fate of the dwarves is one of the minor mysteries of Ragnarok. Volupsa doesn't mention them after v. 48, although to be fair it's mainly concerned with the few gods who survive. Snorri is more concerned with humans, as he tells us two will survive and repopulate the earth.  &#xD;&#xA;The myths don't tell us what happens to the elves either. More mystery." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6748" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1525" RevisionGUID="9cb6e365-f684-433c-8eaf-17c5391d7eed" CreationDate="2016-04-07T23:39:20.797" UserId="292" Comment="edited body" Text="Posedion may well have been a chief god in some particular places. This would have been in the Mycenean period, when Poseidon had [important cults][1] at Pylos and Thebes. Also, on the [Linear B tablets][2] his name is more common than Zeus', along with a feminine variant that was probably his spouse. Other tablets record offerings to Poseidon and the [Two Queens][2] (assumed to be Demeter and Persephone).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.ca/books?id=sxurBtx6shoC&amp;q=Poseidon#v=snippet&amp;q=Poseidon&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poseidon" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6749" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1553" RevisionGUID="433e3d5c-fe0a-4e00-85b4-503872796c94" CreationDate="2016-04-08T08:05:09.473" UserId="1358" Comment="added description of content of link" Text="You might find this interesting:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/mar/29/siberian-unicorn-extinct-humans-fossil-kazakhstan&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It describes a prehistoric rhino-like animal, *Elasmotherium sibiricum* or the ‘Siberian unicorn’ with a single long &quot;horn&quot; on it's nose which may have lived alongside humans." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6750" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1580" RevisionGUID="f541ea44-f668-4cd0-99de-8dfc7cbc99d5" CreationDate="2016-04-08T13:42:07.767" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="I have read a story where Odin gave all his possessions to his brother Villi and Ve and made them the rulers of the Universe.One of Odin's possessions is his wife,Frigg.Hence,while Odin is away,his brothers...uh,had some &quot;fun&quot; with his wife.How true is this myth and why did Frigg,a goddess of marraige aOdinnd hence,chasity, willing go to her brother-in-laws?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6751" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1580" RevisionGUID="f541ea44-f668-4cd0-99de-8dfc7cbc99d5" CreationDate="2016-04-08T13:42:07.767" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Did Frigg cheat on Odin?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6752" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1580" RevisionGUID="f541ea44-f668-4cd0-99de-8dfc7cbc99d5" CreationDate="2016-04-08T13:42:07.767" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="|norse|odin|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6753" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1580" RevisionGUID="22f8d141-d680-43ae-9e39-00b77bb76897" CreationDate="2016-04-08T16:07:39.397" UserId="42" Comment="added 9 characters in body" Text="I have read a story where Odin gave all his possessions to his brother Villi and Ve and made them the rulers of the Universe.  One of Odin's possessions is his wife, Frigg.  Hence, while Odin is away, his brothers... Uh, had some &quot;fun&quot; with his wife.  How true is this myth and why did Frigg, a goddess of marraige and hence, chasity, willing go to her brother-in-laws?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6754" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1581" RevisionGUID="58e4b213-ac53-4922-95f4-27b1242822d1" CreationDate="2016-04-08T16:26:49.077" UserId="42" Text="Well, your telling is pretty distorted, but there is a story of Odin's brothers taking possession of his wife, Frigg.  From the [Ynglinga Saga](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/heim/02ynglga.htm):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Odin had two brothers, the one called Ve, the other Vilje, and  &#xD;&#xA;they governed the kingdom when he was absent.  It happened once  &#xD;&#xA;when Odin had gone to a great distance, and had been so long away  &#xD;&#xA;that the people Of Asia doubted if he would ever return home,  &#xD;&#xA;that his two brothers took it upon themselves to divide his  &#xD;&#xA;estate; but both of them took his wife Frigg to themselves.  Odin  &#xD;&#xA;soon after returned home, and took his wife back.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note, however, that no statement is made villifying Ve and Vilje, accusing them of violating Frigg or cuckolding Odin, nor is any mention made of reprisals for their transgressions.  Odin simply returns, and takes his wife back.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rather than a story of *bad* behavior, this seems like a model for *right* behavior to me.  If a man is lost, it may fall to their brother to take possession of their widow, as their own wife or mistress, and see to her care.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In fact, sometimes immediately after the death of their husbands, Icelandic women became the wives of relatives-in-law through inheritance;  this came about, as a rule, through a man's falling heir to a deceased brother's widow along with his movable goods and this land.  And even at present day in Scandinavia it is very customary for a man to marry the wife or betrothed of his brother, in the event of the latter's death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; [Social Scandinavia in the Viking Age](https://books.google.com/books?id=OJw2AAAAMAAJ&amp;pg=PA104&amp;lpg=PA104#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false) by Mary Wilhelmine Williams, page 104&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6755" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1581" RevisionGUID="42099245-23df-4ff3-80c0-4272bcab6187" CreationDate="2016-04-08T16:34:31.073" UserId="42" Comment="added 131 characters in body" Text="Well, your telling is pretty distorted, but there is a story of Odin's brothers taking possession of his wife, Frigg.  From the [Ynglinga Saga](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/heim/02ynglga.htm), Chapter 3:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Odin had two brothers, the one called Ve, the other Vilje, and  &#xD;&#xA;they governed the kingdom when he was absent.  It happened once  &#xD;&#xA;when Odin had gone to a great distance, and had been so long away  &#xD;&#xA;that the people Of Asia doubted if he would ever return home,  &#xD;&#xA;that his two brothers took it upon themselves to divide his  &#xD;&#xA;estate; but both of them took his wife Frigg to themselves.  Odin  &#xD;&#xA;soon after returned home, and took his wife back.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note, however, that no statement is made villifying Ve and Vilje, accusing them of violating Frigg or of them cuckolding Odin, nor is any mention made of reprisals for their transgressions.  Odin simply returns, and takes his wife back.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rather than a story of *bad* behavior, this seems to be a model for *right* behavior.  If a man is lost, it may fall to their brother to take possession of their widow, as their own wife or mistress, and see to her care.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In fact, sometimes immediately after the death of their husbands, Icelandic women became the wives of relatives-in-law through inheritance;  this came about, as a rule, through a man's falling heir to a deceased brother's widow along with his movable goods and this land.  And even at present day in Scandinavia it is very customary for a man to marry the wife or betrothed of his brother, in the event of the latter's death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; [Social Scandinavia in the Viking Age](https://books.google.com/books?id=OJw2AAAAMAAJ&amp;pg=PA104&amp;lpg=PA104#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false) by Mary Wilhelmine Williams, page 104&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, to answer the title question directly &quot;Did Frigg cheat?&quot;  *No*, she did not." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6756" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1582" RevisionGUID="4febca7f-6c67-4559-a974-71418e1b1d99" CreationDate="2016-04-09T13:42:34.187" UserId="1415" Text="The myth of Icarus is often used to describe the foolishness of technological ambition which is untempered by caution." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6759" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1573" RevisionGUID="0cbb6ae5-e0bd-4ef6-84a7-7d9ffc284c20" CreationDate="2016-04-10T13:08:58.553" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6760" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1583" RevisionGUID="81175ac6-eb83-4cc6-af88-e02b02b63b4d" CreationDate="2016-04-10T19:43:56.980" UserId="1439" Text="What's an ancient story that's a good example for the plot structure of the monomyth, meaning most of the stations are there?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In my youth I read the populat classical greek myths as well as a few german (Grimms fairytales, Nibelungenlied) and norse sagas, and quite a few variations of the king Arthur stories. Either I forgot that some of them followed the monomyth plot structure, or none do, or I'm really bad at spotting plot strucuters. Supposedly the monomyth is everywhere, but the oldest example that comes to my mind is The Hobbit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've looked at [wikipedia][1] and [these][2] [two][2] tvtropes pages, but the only examples mentioned where the bible (Jesus and Moses) and the life of Buddha. I'm interested in examples that are not (yawnsome) religious scripture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what is a good, pre-modern example of the monomyth in action? Which story follows the plot structure most closely?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;p.s.: Why do I want to know? I want to read a good and hopefully entertaining 'ur-example' and see for myself if I spot the stages and structure. I'm not interested in reading long scholarly works about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth#See_also&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/TheHeroWithAThousandFaces" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6761" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1583" RevisionGUID="81175ac6-eb83-4cc6-af88-e02b02b63b4d" CreationDate="2016-04-10T19:43:56.980" UserId="1439" Text="Good ancient example for the monomyth" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6762" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1583" RevisionGUID="81175ac6-eb83-4cc6-af88-e02b02b63b4d" CreationDate="2016-04-10T19:43:56.980" UserId="1439" Text="|monomyth|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6766" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1583" RevisionGUID="bae6cacc-815b-49ce-9d30-bbdde314eef0" CreationDate="2016-04-11T08:37:04.273" UserId="111" Comment="corrected typos" Text="What's an ancient story that's a good example for the plot structure of the monomyth, meaning most of the stations are there?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In my youth I read the popular classical greek myths as well as a few german (Grimms fairytales, Nibelungenlied) and norse sagas, and quite a few variations of the king Arthur stories. Either I forgot that some of them followed the monomyth plot structure, or none do, or I'm really bad at spotting plot structures. Supposedly the monomyth is everywhere, but the oldest example that comes to my mind is The Hobbit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've looked at [wikipedia][1] and [these][2] [two][2] tvtropes pages, but the only examples mentioned where the bible (Jesus and Moses) and the life of Buddha. I'm interested in examples that are not (yawnsome) religious scripture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what is a good, pre-modern example of the monomyth in action? Which story follows the plot structure most closely?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;p.s.: Why do I want to know? I want to read a good and hopefully entertaining 'ur-example' and see for myself if I spot the stages and structure. I'm not interested in reading long scholarly works about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth#See_also&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/TheHeroWithAThousandFaces" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6768" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1573" RevisionGUID="c12e3854-5d22-4ce9-9e21-a2d4479a0398" CreationDate="2016-04-11T12:13:09.607" UserId="57" Comment="removed unnecessary ambiguity" Text="The closest I've found would be something like the Prometheus myth, or perhaps even the story of Eden, where man is punished by a deity for poking his nose where it doesn't belong. But this isn't exactly critical of technology, at most it's saying that (some) knowledge is dangerous for people to have.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm thinking more along the lines of the myth at the end of Plato's Phaedrus (274b-279b), which he attributes to the Egyptians but which I've never found elsewhere. In it, the god Thoth approaches the god-king Thamus offering his invention of the technology of writing, suggesting that it will improve mankind's memory. Far from it, Thamus replies, in fact it will have just the opposite effect since men will become dependent on it and lose their natural capacity for memory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does anyone here know of similar myths which are skeptical or perhaps even critical of technology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6769" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1573" RevisionGUID="c12e3854-5d22-4ce9-9e21-a2d4479a0398" CreationDate="2016-04-11T12:13:09.607" UserId="57" Comment="removed unnecessary ambiguity" Text="Anyone know of myths which are critical/skeptical of technology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6775" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1580" RevisionGUID="9a5f0ead-987d-4ca7-b033-d229d54fec8b" CreationDate="2016-04-11T16:09:10.840" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="deleted 19 characters in body" Text="I read a story where Odin gave all his possessions to his brother Villi and Ve and made them the rulers of the Universe.  One of Odin's possessions is his wife, Frigg.  Hence, while Odin is away, his brothers &quot;took possession&quot; of Frigg.  How true is this myth and why did Frigg, a goddess of marriage, willing go to her brothers in law?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6776" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1583" RevisionGUID="f1742384-c9c9-4816-a7b7-68cad4e413f3" CreationDate="2016-04-11T19:42:09.093" UserId="1439" Comment="explained why IMO this is not a duplicate." Text="What's an ancient story that's a good example for the plot structure of the monomyth, meaning most of the stations are there?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In my youth I read the popular classical greek myths as well as a few german (Grimms fairytales, Nibelungenlied) and norse sagas, and quite a few variations of the king Arthur stories. Either I forgot that some of them followed the monomyth plot structure, or none do, or I'm really bad at spotting plot structures. Supposedly the monomyth is everywhere, but the oldest example that comes to my mind is The Hobbit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've looked at [wikipedia][1] and [these][2] [two][2] tvtropes pages, but the only examples mentioned where the bible (Jesus and Moses) and the life of Buddha. I'm interested in examples that are not (yawnsome) religious scripture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what is a good, pre-modern example of the monomyth in action? Which story follows the plot structure most closely?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;p.s.: Why do I want to know? I want to read a good and hopefully entertaining 'ur-example' and see for myself if I spot the stages and structure. I'm not interested in reading long scholarly works about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Edit to add: This question was tagged as duplicate of this: [Why, according to Joseph Campbell, is the monomyth so common?][3]. I asked for a good ur-example. The supposedly duplicate question contained no examples (though the section on the myths that are *not* universal in one answer was quite interesting).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth#See_also&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/TheHeroWithAThousandFaces&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/82/why-according-to-joseph-campbell-is-the-monomyth-so-common" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6777" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1586" RevisionGUID="22071c6c-5d18-4372-9921-eb21e4935dab" CreationDate="2016-04-11T21:02:47.150" UserId="1446" Text="The Wikipedia article for the Calydonian Boar says that&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Like the quest for the Golden Fleece (Argonautica) or the Trojan War that took place the following generation, the Calydonian Hunt is one of the nodes in which much Greek myth comes together.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no reference on this claim, and I was wondering what scholastic work has been done on the &quot;nodes&quot; of Greek mythology (presumably defined as the episodes during which many heroes of a generation come together). Is this a major concept in the study of mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6778" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1586" RevisionGUID="22071c6c-5d18-4372-9921-eb21e4935dab" CreationDate="2016-04-11T21:02:47.150" UserId="1446" Text="Nodes of Greek Mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6779" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1586" RevisionGUID="22071c6c-5d18-4372-9921-eb21e4935dab" CreationDate="2016-04-11T21:02:47.150" UserId="1446" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6780" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1587" RevisionGUID="5724918e-b8c3-47fa-8da0-d2516752beaa" CreationDate="2016-04-11T22:46:10.857" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="The word &quot;node&quot; is not (as far as I know) used in the study of literature/folklore/mythology. What I think the Wikipedia article is trying to refer to is the idea that the Calydonian Boar story features a gathering of many *characters* in Greek mythology come together.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The academic word for this concept would probably be an [epic catalogue][1]. The phrase epic catalogue refers to the poetic device of making really long lists of things, e.g. a list of characters. I talk a little bit more about epic catalogues in the Stack Exchange question I linked to above.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/545/62" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6784" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1586" RevisionGUID="f60ac811-60cf-4c0f-ab64-28d0cb6768fa" CreationDate="2016-04-12T00:15:16.920" UserId="967" Comment="edited title" Text="Are the nodes of Greek mythology a major concept?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6794" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1590" RevisionGUID="82f59c08-5208-43e9-9260-aea89de6ee03" CreationDate="2016-04-13T10:17:11.127" UserId="1453" Text="What is the oldest historical account of European dragons (Lindworms, Drakones etc.) being associated with Asian dragons (Lóng, Ryū). Was the association simpley because they are serpent-like fantastic beasts or is there more to it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6795" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1590" RevisionGUID="82f59c08-5208-43e9-9260-aea89de6ee03" CreationDate="2016-04-13T10:17:11.127" UserId="1453" Text="When have European and Asian dragons first been associated" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6796" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1590" RevisionGUID="82f59c08-5208-43e9-9260-aea89de6ee03" CreationDate="2016-04-13T10:17:11.127" UserId="1453" Text="|chinese|dragons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6799" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1590" RevisionGUID="2d32eb5c-201c-41e1-b2ea-f8f148565353" CreationDate="2016-04-13T21:04:19.413" UserId="967" Comment="title, grammar" Text="What is the oldest historical account of European dragons (Lindworms, Drakones etc.) being associated with Asian dragons (Lóng, Ryū). Is the association simply because they are serpent-like fantastic beasts or is there more to it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6800" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1590" RevisionGUID="2d32eb5c-201c-41e1-b2ea-f8f148565353" CreationDate="2016-04-13T21:04:19.413" UserId="967" Comment="title, grammar" Text="When were European and Asian dragons first been associated?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6801" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1590" RevisionGUID="49047688-1310-4be6-93ef-6681734adedc" CreationDate="2016-04-13T23:13:52.610" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 5 characters in body; edited title" Text="What is the oldest historical account of European dragons (Lindworms, Drakones etc.) being associated with Asian dragons (Lóng, Ryū)? Is the association simply because they are both serpent-like fantastic beasts or is there more to it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6802" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1590" RevisionGUID="49047688-1310-4be6-93ef-6681734adedc" CreationDate="2016-04-13T23:13:52.610" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 5 characters in body; edited title" Text="When were European and Asian dragons first associated?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6803" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1591" RevisionGUID="4534a16a-332f-4869-8c71-4d2fad8a62e7" CreationDate="2016-04-14T01:06:47.763" UserId="1317" Text="Well, [Marco Polo][1] (scan down to Chaper XLIX) describes &quot;vast serpents&quot; that are found in the province of &quot;Carajan&quot; (probably Yunnan). He didn't say he actually saw them and didn't call them &quot;dragons&quot;.&#xA;&#xA;But all dragon myths probably have a common origin deep in humanity's past: A deep instinctual fear of snakes. It appears that [primates are hardwired to detect snakes][2] as one of their defense mechanisms against predators. Dragon myths were one of the way the ancients expressed this fear, probably reinforced by spotting dinosaur bones and the like. (the latter being vaguely remembered from old college lectures).&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/12410/pg12410.html&#xA;  [2]: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/10/131028162928.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6804" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1591" RevisionGUID="eb0fc1c9-db57-41ad-a86b-00bc90101689" CreationDate="2016-04-14T01:16:32.007" UserId="1317" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="Well, [Marco Polo][1] (scan down to Chaper XLIX) describes &quot;vast serpents&quot; that are found in the province of &quot;Carajan&quot; (probably Yunnan). He didn't say he actually saw them and didn't call them &quot;dragons&quot;.&#xA;&#xA;But all dragon myths probably have a common origin deep in humanity's past: A deep instinctual fear of snakes. It appears that [primates are hardwired to detect snakes][2] as one of their defense mechanisms against predators. Dragon myths were one of the ways the ancients expressed this fear, probably reinforced by spotting dinosaur bones and the like. (this last  being vaguely remembered from old college lectures).&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/12410/pg12410.html&#xA;  [2]: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/10/131028162928.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6805" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="1050" RevisionGUID="aa4bf0f8-ed85-43b4-8d46-bf0290b09acf" CreationDate="2016-04-14T09:35:49.263" UserId="57" Comment="26" />
  <row Id="6806" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1050" RevisionGUID="40276de9-9ad0-49e6-b53c-6f1e3297599c" CreationDate="2016-04-14T23:23:24.320" UserId="967" Comment="a bit of formatting, changed a word" Text="In the *Táin Bó* , or *Cattle Raid of Cooley*, the great Irish hero Cuchulainn is said to undergo a process which appears to be quite similar to &quot;hulking out&quot;.  The most accurate translation of the phrase used to describe this transformation is &quot;warp spasm&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What did the warp spasm, and the results thereof, look like?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6807" PostHistoryTypeId="8" PostId="1050" RevisionGUID="be0fab85-d269-4e3f-8633-2db338fe8dfc" CreationDate="2016-04-15T00:00:10.457" UserId="579" Comment="Rollback to [8c933b95-a673-4630-b33e-5e9d1e96d7ab]" Text="In the *Táin Bó , or *Cattle Raid of Cooley*, the great Irish hero Cuchulainn is said to undergo a process which appears to be quite similar to &quot;hulking out&quot;.  The most colorful translation of the phrase used to describe this transformation is &quot;warp spasm&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What did the warp spasm, and the results thereof, look like?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6808" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1050" RevisionGUID="32a50170-b4dc-45eb-9834-52776daf6456" CreationDate="2016-04-15T00:00:25.973" UserId="579" Comment="added 10 characters in body" Text="In the [*Táin Bó Cúailnge*][1], or *Cattle Raid of Cooley*, the great Irish hero Cuchulainn is said to undergo a process which appears to be quite similar to &quot;hulking out&quot;.  The most colorful translation of the phrase used to describe this transformation is &quot;warp spasm&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;###What did the warp spasm, and the results thereof, look like?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%A1in_B%C3%B3_C%C3%BAailnge" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6809" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1592" RevisionGUID="f4acc802-5cfa-43ef-94ef-aec9fdec01bb" CreationDate="2016-04-15T00:43:31.160" UserId="1460" Text="Did the ancient Greeks believe that the residence of the main Olympians on the top of Mt Olympus to be literal? Or is Mt Olympus used as a metaphor to explain that the gods resided on the highest point on Earth? Do we have any evidence to indicate that some people believed the latter?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6810" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1592" RevisionGUID="f4acc802-5cfa-43ef-94ef-aec9fdec01bb" CreationDate="2016-04-15T00:43:31.160" UserId="1460" Text="Did the ancient Greeks believe the Olympians residence on mt Olympus to be metaphor?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6811" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1592" RevisionGUID="f4acc802-5cfa-43ef-94ef-aec9fdec01bb" CreationDate="2016-04-15T00:43:31.160" UserId="1460" Text="|greek|olympians|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6812" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1592" RevisionGUID="0a44d458-6e38-4199-ac90-567baa15db2a" CreationDate="2016-04-15T01:09:25.047" UserId="1460" Comment="added 28 characters in body" Text="Did the ancient Greeks believe that the residence of the main Olympians on the top of Mt Olympus to be literal? Or is Mt Olympus used as a metaphor to explain that the gods resided on the highest point on Earth as understood by the Greeks? Do we have any evidence to indicate that some people believed the latter?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6813" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1592" RevisionGUID="ebe14f9b-d4b0-4969-b39a-3b635df7bd06" CreationDate="2016-04-16T01:11:48.260" UserId="967" Comment="Grammar is bad" Text="Did the ancient Greeks believe that the residence of the main Olympians on the top of Mt. Olympus to be literal? Or is Mt. Olympus used as a metaphor to explain that the gods resided on the highest point on Earth as understood by the Greeks? Do we have any evidence to indicate that some people believed the latter?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6814" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1592" RevisionGUID="ebe14f9b-d4b0-4969-b39a-3b635df7bd06" CreationDate="2016-04-16T01:11:48.260" UserId="967" Comment="Grammar is bad" Text="Did the ancient Greeks believe the Olympians residence on Mt. Olympus to be a metaphor?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6816" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1591" RevisionGUID="26bd2802-d48a-4bdd-8d0d-6caa7e077c68" CreationDate="2016-04-17T03:10:58.800" UserId="1317" Comment="added 7 characters in body" Text="Well, [Marco Polo][1] (scan down to Chapter XLIX) describes &quot;vast serpents&quot; that are found in the province of &quot;Carajan&quot; (probably Yunnan). He didn't say he actually saw them and didn't call them &quot;dragons&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But all dragon myths probably have a common origin deep in humanity's past: A deep instinctual fear of snakes. It appears that [primates are hardwired to detect snakes][2] as one of their defense mechanisms against predators. Dragon myths were one of the ways the ancients expressed this fear, probably reinforced by spotting dinosaur bones and the like. (this last  being vaguely remembered from old college lectures).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/12410/pg12410.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/10/131028162928.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6818" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="1050" RevisionGUID="0c20f119-b3ea-4d1e-9849-dc8630ddc669" CreationDate="2016-04-18T10:10:26.100" UserId="57" Comment="26" />
  <row Id="6819" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1594" RevisionGUID="3e0c11af-1250-448f-a1c9-caf0e63d228c" CreationDate="2016-04-18T19:33:47.563" UserId="967" Text="In Greek mythology, there are a lot of nymphs. They were nature spirits, and so, there are a lot of types of nymphs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cloud&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Grass&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Flower&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what other nymphs were there?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6820" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1594" RevisionGUID="3e0c11af-1250-448f-a1c9-caf0e63d228c" CreationDate="2016-04-18T19:33:47.563" UserId="967" Text="How many types of Nymphs were there?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6821" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1594" RevisionGUID="3e0c11af-1250-448f-a1c9-caf0e63d228c" CreationDate="2016-04-18T19:33:47.563" UserId="967" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6822" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1595" RevisionGUID="008c48ed-598f-4a2a-a406-02f260215bea" CreationDate="2016-04-18T22:27:36.997" UserId="292" Text="Leaving aside speculation about relative status, start with the fact that there's a lot we don't know about Norse mythology, and there's no [central canon][1] that makes everything match up. So, the correct answer would be that we seem to be dealing with attempts to harmonize a number of beliefs about what happens in the afterlife.  &#xD;&#xA;Also, there is really no reason why everyone should have the same fate. Even Christianity has a number of options, although only one paradise.  &#xD;&#xA;If I was going to speculate on why Odin and Freyja share fallen warriors between them, I would go back to the [Aesir - Vanir war][2], and suggest that since it ended in a draw, one deity from each side gets half the dead. But that's just a suggestion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.academia.edu/20384683/Pantheon_What_Pantheon&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://norse-mythology.org/tales/the-aesir-vanir-war/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6823" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1594" RevisionGUID="053fc6fd-68c8-4523-8dce-d143c8830cb9" CreationDate="2016-04-19T14:28:41.837" UserId="967" Comment="added 173 characters in body" Text="After reading and answering [this question][1], it caused me to believe that in Greek mythology, there were a lot of nymphs. They were nature spirits, and so, there are a lot of *types* of nymphs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cloud&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Grass&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Flower&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what other nymphs were there?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1544/was-charybdis-always-a-monster" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6824" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1594" RevisionGUID="c218c68f-4ee2-4f5f-b682-0d7b5febba47" CreationDate="2016-04-19T15:11:10.893" UserId="967" Comment="added 192 characters in body" Text="After reading and answering [this question][1], it caused me to believe that in Greek mythology, there were a lot of nymphs. They were nature spirits, and so, there are a lot of *types* of nymphs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cloud - Nephelai (Cloud-Nymphs)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Grass - Leimonides (Pasture Nymphs)&lt;sub&gt;(Close enough to grass)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Flower - Anthousai (Flower Nymphs)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All from [here][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what other nymphs were there?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1544/was-charybdis-always-a-monster&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/Okeanides.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6825" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1596" RevisionGUID="04968221-2638-4877-aea7-d2f14efe2a9e" CreationDate="2016-04-19T22:00:15.537" UserId="1475" Text="=)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does someone know what this ear stud shows?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Because of the Yin/Yang symbol it should be chinese - so no Yōkai.&#xD;&#xA;Could it be a Yaoguai? A Huli jing?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have absolutely no idea but I just want to know it so badly! :D&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/0Az2t.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6826" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1596" RevisionGUID="04968221-2638-4877-aea7-d2f14efe2a9e" CreationDate="2016-04-19T22:00:15.537" UserId="1475" Text="What does this ear stud show? (Chinese Mythology?)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6827" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1596" RevisionGUID="04968221-2638-4877-aea7-d2f14efe2a9e" CreationDate="2016-04-19T22:00:15.537" UserId="1475" Text="|mythical-creatures|myth-identification|chinese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6828" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1596" RevisionGUID="3ca385e8-9796-4e99-8ec8-d25559d3a264" CreationDate="2016-04-19T23:20:44.453" UserId="967" Comment="formatting, question" Text="Does someone know what this ear stud shows?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Because of the Yin/Yang symbol it should be chinese - so no Yōkai.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Could it be a Yaoguai? A Huli jing?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have absolutely no idea but I just want to know it so badly!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![stud][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/0Az2t.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6829" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1596" RevisionGUID="3ca385e8-9796-4e99-8ec8-d25559d3a264" CreationDate="2016-04-19T23:20:44.453" UserId="967" Comment="formatting, question" Text="What does this ear stud show in Chinese Mythology?)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6830" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1596" RevisionGUID="0014c476-d04d-4b0f-a3c3-bc5940119a8a" CreationDate="2016-04-20T00:17:21.180" UserId="967" Comment="edited title" Text="What does this ear stud show in Chinese Mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6833" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1596" RevisionGUID="e478fe24-d75d-4192-b66c-4dbcb9753f4d" CreationDate="2016-04-20T19:26:55.273" UserId="1475" Comment="Possible Answer" Text="Does someone know what this ear stud shows?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Because of the Yin/Yang symbol it should be chinese - so no Yōkai.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Could it be a Yaoguai? A Huli jing?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have absolutely no idea but I just want to know it so badly!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;EDIT: I've heard another idea: It could show Sun Wukong.&#xD;&#xA;Does someone know more about it? Eventhough it isn't mythological.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![stud][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/0Az2t.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6835" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1598" RevisionGUID="e1afdf35-1334-42a1-aadb-33d3a100a98e" CreationDate="2016-04-21T00:27:12.027" UserId="95" Text="The Icarus story is more a story of failing to RTFM or follow directions. Or not listening to your father. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Plato story sounds unlikely to have actually come from an Egyptian, since they adopted writing quite early, it was considered sacred, and the scribes were generally one of the highest classes in society. It was probably a case of ascribing a concept to The Other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I suspect an anti-technology sentiment wouldn't be a survival trait for an ancient society, when agricultural advances would reduce starvation. And saying &quot;These good old copper swords are just fine for us&quot; when your neighbors have bronze can be disastrous. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6836" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1599" RevisionGUID="29e06ea3-5f8e-4ac1-a617-3003d06210ab" CreationDate="2016-04-22T09:38:44.920" UserId="1490" Text="This is a question out of curiosity. I noticed that Indian culture and Chinese culture very near by proximity, but there has been no sign of any dragon in the Indian culture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you for reading my question." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6837" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1599" RevisionGUID="29e06ea3-5f8e-4ac1-a617-3003d06210ab" CreationDate="2016-04-22T09:38:44.920" UserId="1490" Text="Why does Indian mythology not have humongous beasts like that of Chinese dragon?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6838" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1599" RevisionGUID="29e06ea3-5f8e-4ac1-a617-3003d06210ab" CreationDate="2016-04-22T09:38:44.920" UserId="1490" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6839" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1600" RevisionGUID="568432c0-e486-4f7e-972a-994191005257" CreationDate="2016-04-22T12:12:59.927" UserId="1076" Text="Even though the geographical locations might be very near, it has to be noticed that there hasn't been a considerable mixture of both the cultures due to the following reasons:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The Himalayas acted as a very big barrier between the geographical locations of India and China, which made it very difficult for the cultures to mix.&#xD;&#xA; - The China mainland and India were ruled by rulers from completely different cultures, namely the Mughals in the North, the Cholas and Pallavas in the South, whose cultures are very different from each other.&#xD;&#xA; - However, it is interesting to notice that the reptile `snake`(called as **Naag**) is also an important part of Indian folklore, which has been associated with Gods like Siva and Vishnu. However, there hasn't been any significant records of a flying reptile in Indian folklore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But, claiming of no `humungous beasts` in Indian folklore is wrong. India did had beasts like Airavat, Hanuma, Garuda, etc." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6840" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1599" RevisionGUID="6c755449-e8e0-4e36-a1e2-e6141ad33b69" CreationDate="2016-04-22T15:44:19.267" UserId="967" Comment="unneeded end" Text="This is a question out of curiosity. I noticed that Indian culture and Chinese culture very near by proximity, but there has been no sign of any dragon in the Indian culture.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6845" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1599" RevisionGUID="7cdfa518-6cca-485f-a264-6b0c63aed6c6" CreationDate="2016-04-23T08:11:29.193" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|chinese|india|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6847" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1602" RevisionGUID="b5b0ba59-002e-4df7-8e1e-145a277ee1c0" CreationDate="2016-04-23T12:23:52.027" UserId="1076" Text="**This is an answer given by my Indian grandpa, so please take it with a pinch of salt.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As most hero-villain war stories in old movies and old stories in India go, it mostly involves the protogonist hitting the antagonist on the head, behind by a club or some kind of a weapon, knocking him/it cold.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, the bhoots(or more popularly called &quot;chudails&quot;) have their feet backwards in order to confuse the prey. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is also interesting to notice that they also wear their hair forwards, which also makes it difficult to see where they are looking at, and also a bit difficult to perceive the head's orientation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the uninitiated, chudails are believed to be the spirits of dead people." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6848" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1573" RevisionGUID="d444caaf-9a53-42c3-b589-d5ac015f3e91" CreationDate="2016-04-23T14:18:14.593" UserId="967" Comment="make it a little easier to read, title needs to have 3rd person verb does" Text="The closest I've found would be something like the Prometheus myth, or perhaps even the story of Eden, where man is punished by a deity for poking his nose where it doesn't belong. But this isn't exactly critical of technology, at most it's saying that (some) knowledge is dangerous for people to have.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm thinking more along the lines of the myth at the end of Plato's Phaedrus (274b-279b), which he attributes to the Egyptians but which I've never found elsewhere. In it, the god Thoth approaches the god-king Thamus offering his invention of the technology of writing, suggesting that it will improve mankind's memory. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Far from it,&quot; Thamus replies, &quot;in fact it will have just the opposite effect since men will become dependent on it and lose their natural capacity for memory.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does anyone here know of similar myths which are skeptical or perhaps even critical of technology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6849" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1573" RevisionGUID="d444caaf-9a53-42c3-b589-d5ac015f3e91" CreationDate="2016-04-23T14:18:14.593" UserId="967" Comment="make it a little easier to read, title needs to have 3rd person verb does" Text="Does anyone know of myths which are critical/skeptical of technology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6850" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1603" RevisionGUID="fa5f94f9-22d7-4afe-8914-b7d18e9ed4b2" CreationDate="2016-04-23T17:38:22.627" UserId="967" Text="There has been a whole bunch of speculation of where Atlantis is/ was. It apparently was a myth of a lost city where gods went, and did some stuff. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But where was it in mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6851" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1603" RevisionGUID="fa5f94f9-22d7-4afe-8914-b7d18e9ed4b2" CreationDate="2016-04-23T17:38:22.627" UserId="967" Text="In mythology, where was Atlantis?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6852" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1603" RevisionGUID="fa5f94f9-22d7-4afe-8914-b7d18e9ed4b2" CreationDate="2016-04-23T17:38:22.627" UserId="967" Text="|atlantis|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6853" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1604" RevisionGUID="8defb828-231b-43ee-bae8-c2f8a01f6203" CreationDate="2016-04-23T19:14:12.627" UserId="1417" Text="First of all, Atlantis was an island - island of Atlas. And the gods were not particularly active in regards to the island.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would say that Atlantis is absent from mythology. As the first mention that we know of comes from Plato and is used as a vehicle to expand on his political views.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is in Plato's Timaeus where we are given the location of Atlantis: beyond the the pillars of Heracles (which is today's Gibraltar)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6854" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1604" RevisionGUID="da0d03fd-21c8-465b-bc46-9780ca664ee9" CreationDate="2016-04-23T20:04:04.573" UserId="967" Comment="Fragment in answer" Text="First of all, Atlantis was an island - island of Atlas. And the gods were not particularly active in regards to the island.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would say that Atlantis is absent from mythology, because the first mention that we know of comes from Plato and is used as a vehicle to expand on his political views.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is in Plato's Timaeus where we are given the location of Atlantis: beyond the the pillars of Heracles (which is today's Gibraltar)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6855" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1604" RevisionGUID="bbe21598-d59f-420b-8df1-06235c1f2063" CreationDate="2016-04-24T16:29:36.437" UserId="1417" Comment="quotation added" Text="First of all, Atlantis was an island - island of Atlas. And the gods were not particularly active in regards to the island.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would say that Atlantis is absent from mythology, because the first mention that we know of comes from Plato and is used as a vehicle to expand on his political views.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is in Plato's Timaeus where we are given the location of Atlantis: beyond the the pillars of Heracles (which is today's Gibraltar).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As asked, here is the English quotation - I just do not have access to the Greek original:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For it is related in our records how once upon a time your State&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stayed the course of a mighty host, which, starting from a distant&#xD;&#xA;&gt; point in the Atlantic ocean, was insolently advancing to attack the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whole of Europe, and Asia to boot. For the ocean there was at that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; time navigable; for in front of the mouth which you Greeks call, as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; you say, 'the pillars of Heracles',' there lay an island which was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; larger than Libya and Asia together; and it was possible for the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; travelers of that time to cross from it to the other islands, and from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the islands to the whole of the continent over against them which&#xD;&#xA;&gt; encompasses that veritable ocean. For all that we have here, lying&#xD;&#xA;&gt; within the mouth of which we speak, is evidently a haven having a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; narrow entrance; but that yonder is a real ocean, and the land&#xD;&#xA;&gt; surrounding it may most rightly be called, in the fullest and truest&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sense, a continent." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6856" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1605" RevisionGUID="3bd88415-2817-4412-b116-e890161b0b31" CreationDate="2016-04-24T22:02:02.423" UserId="1224" Text="In book IV of the Odyssey (translator Robert Fitsgerald), Menelaus mentions he spent 7 years returning to Sparta. This seems like it would be something that somebody in anceint times would write about. If it was written, what is the piece called?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6857" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1605" RevisionGUID="3bd88415-2817-4412-b116-e890161b0b31" CreationDate="2016-04-24T22:02:02.423" UserId="1224" Text="Was there an epic or drama detailing Menelaus's return" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6858" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1605" RevisionGUID="3bd88415-2817-4412-b116-e890161b0b31" CreationDate="2016-04-24T22:02:02.423" UserId="1224" Text="|greek|odyssey|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6859" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1606" RevisionGUID="08fe15f9-f955-4b18-a7c0-eecaf127920c" CreationDate="2016-04-24T22:25:32.490" UserId="57" Text="Book 4 of the Odyssey has a few more details about Menelaus voyage home: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;I was trying to come on here, but the gods detained me in Egypt, for my hecatombs had not given them full satisfaction, and the gods are very strict about having their dues. Now off Egypt, about as far as a ship can sail in a day with a good stiff breeze behind her, there is an island called Pharos- it has a good harbour from which vessels can get out into open sea when they have taken in water- and the gods becalmed me twenty days without so much as a breath of fair wind to help me forward. We should have run clean out of provisions and my men would have starved, if a goddess had not taken pity upon me and saved me in the person of Idothea, daughter to Proteus, the old man of the sea, for she had taken a great fancy to me. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Source: [Samuel Butler's translation][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Menelaus reunion with Helen and the couple's escape from Egypt is chronicled in Euripides' drama [Helen][2]. The play builds upon the version of events told by Herodotus, in which the real Helen was in Egypt during the entire Trojan War.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's an excerpt from [E. P. Coleridge's translation][3]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; MENELAUS  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; What can I think or say? For after my previous troubles, this is a fresh piece of ill-luck I hear, if, indeed, after recovering my wife from Troy and bringing her hither, and putting her for safety in the cave, I am then to find another woman living here with the same name as my wife. She called her the begotten child of Zeus. Can there be a man that hath the name of Zeus by the banks of Nile? The Zeus of heaven is only one, at any rate. Where is there a Sparta in the world save where Eurotas glides between his reedy banks? The name of Tyndareus is the name of one alone. Is there any land of the same name as Lacedaemon or Troy? I know not what to say; for naturally there are many in the wide world that have the same names, cities and women too; there is nothing, then, to marvel at. Nor yet again will I fly from the alarm a servant raises; for there is none so cruel of heart as to refuse me food when once he hears my name. All have heard of Ilium's burning, and I, that set it ablaze, am famous now throughout the world, I, Menelaus. I therefore wait the master of this house. There are two issues I must watch; if he prove somewhat stern of heart, I will to my wreck and there conceal myself; but if he show any sign of pity, I will ask for help in this my present strait. This is the crowning woe in all my misery, to beg the means of life from other princes, prince though I be myself; still needs must I. Yea, this is no saying of mine, but a word of wisdom, &quot;Naught in might exceedeth dread necessity.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/odyssey.4.iv.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_(play)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://classics.mit.edu/Euripides/helen.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6860" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1605" RevisionGUID="dc7bb7fa-09af-4799-96cf-7a7ea32ea43d" CreationDate="2016-04-24T22:28:11.847" UserId="57" Comment="edited body" Text="In book IV of the Odyssey (translator Robert Fitsgerald), Menelaus mentions he spent 7 years returning to Sparta. This seems like it would be something that somebody in ancient times would write about. If it was written, what is the piece called?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6861" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1606" RevisionGUID="e1c5fb32-dd5f-4851-9596-13eea65be0b7" CreationDate="2016-04-24T22:33:24.683" UserId="57" Comment="added 74 characters in body" Text="In Book 4 of the Odyssey, Menelaus mentions a few details of his voyage home, during his conversation with Telemachus: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;I was trying to come on here, but the gods detained me in Egypt, for my hecatombs had not given them full satisfaction, and the gods are very strict about having their dues. Now off Egypt, about as far as a ship can sail in a day with a good stiff breeze behind her, there is an island called Pharos- it has a good harbour from which vessels can get out into open sea when they have taken in water- and the gods becalmed me twenty days without so much as a breath of fair wind to help me forward. We should have run clean out of provisions and my men would have starved, if a goddess had not taken pity upon me and saved me in the person of Idothea, daughter to Proteus, the old man of the sea, for she had taken a great fancy to me. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Odyssey, Translated by Samuel Butler][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If there was an epic focused solely on Menelaus, I'm afraid it didn't survive. His reunion with Helen, however, and the couple's escape from Egypt is chronicled in Euripides' drama [Helen][2]. The play builds upon the version of events told by Herodotus (Histories, Book 2), in which the real Helen was in Egypt during the entire Trojan War.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's an excerpt from [E. P. Coleridge's translation][3]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; MENELAUS  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; What can I think or say? For after my previous troubles, this is a fresh piece of ill-luck I hear, if, indeed, after recovering my wife from Troy and bringing her hither, and putting her for safety in the cave, I am then to find another woman living here with the same name as my wife. She called her the begotten child of Zeus. Can there be a man that hath the name of Zeus by the banks of Nile? The Zeus of heaven is only one, at any rate. Where is there a Sparta in the world save where Eurotas glides between his reedy banks? The name of Tyndareus is the name of one alone. Is there any land of the same name as Lacedaemon or Troy? I know not what to say; for naturally there are many in the wide world that have the same names, cities and women too; there is nothing, then, to marvel at. Nor yet again will I fly from the alarm a servant raises; for there is none so cruel of heart as to refuse me food when once he hears my name. All have heard of Ilium's burning, and I, that set it ablaze, am famous now throughout the world, I, Menelaus. I therefore wait the master of this house. There are two issues I must watch; if he prove somewhat stern of heart, I will to my wreck and there conceal myself; but if he show any sign of pity, I will ask for help in this my present strait. This is the crowning woe in all my misery, to beg the means of life from other princes, prince though I be myself; still needs must I. Yea, this is no saying of mine, but a word of wisdom, &quot;Naught in might exceedeth dread necessity.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/odyssey.4.iv.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_(play)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://classics.mit.edu/Euripides/helen.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6862" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1605" RevisionGUID="b6d9adae-795f-43e9-bbde-ad2b8997e51c" CreationDate="2016-04-24T22:38:06.003" UserId="57" Comment="edited title" Text="Was there an epic or drama detailing Menelaus's return?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6863" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1607" RevisionGUID="2595d77a-4b2f-411f-ae74-3a4e3776ba31" CreationDate="2016-04-25T05:34:55.293" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6864" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1608" RevisionGUID="ed8165ad-58f3-4f10-8c64-95a52b9f662b" CreationDate="2016-04-25T05:34:55.293" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6866" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1609" RevisionGUID="fdff09f4-62d9-409c-8a6c-9899c7694881" CreationDate="2016-04-25T10:31:39.293" UserId="1503" Text="To my understanding of monomyth conception, Iliad and Odyssey pulled together is a good example. Also myth of Argonauts, and lots of other myths and stories. For any story or myth, you can abstract it as much as you can and see if it is a &quot;go for quest - have adventures - return with new knowledge/abilities&quot;. If it fits in the scheme – it's a monomyth. I believe, the Red Hood tale could also be considered a monomyth example as well as King Arthur stories." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6867" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1610" RevisionGUID="75b0bec5-9031-4680-9921-54dcdd927146" CreationDate="2016-04-25T13:12:40.860" UserId="1177" Text="The wanderings of Menelaus were described in the “Nostoi” attributed to Agias of Troezen. The remnants of this poem are collected by M.L. West in the Loeb volume “Greek Epic Fragments”. This is older than Herodotus or Euripides." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6868" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1603" RevisionGUID="7a35b1da-82df-424f-877b-3a4d3fb1e9ea" CreationDate="2016-04-25T22:24:18.993" UserId="967" Comment="added 9 characters in body; edited title" Text="There has been a whole bunch of speculation of where Atlantis is/ was. It apparently was a myth of a lost city where gods went, and did some stuff. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But where and what was it in mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6869" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1603" RevisionGUID="7a35b1da-82df-424f-877b-3a4d3fb1e9ea" CreationDate="2016-04-25T22:24:18.993" UserId="967" Comment="added 9 characters in body; edited title" Text="In mythology, where and what was Atlantis?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6870" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1611" RevisionGUID="07a87902-70ca-4a77-9daf-b07dda4ba85c" CreationDate="2016-04-25T22:26:20.830" UserId="967" Text="Ok, I found an answer. For Greek, at least.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Atlantis][1] is a mythical island, off to the far west. People were sunk in the island of Atlantis for their immorality. It was ruled by ten Titan rulers, Atlas as the Eldest. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From Plutarch,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;He [Solon] also spent some time in studies with Psenophis of Heliopolis [in Egypt] and Sonkhis (Sonchis) of Sais, who were very learned priests. From these, as Plato says, he heard the story of the lost Atlantis, and tried to introduce it in a poetical form to the Greeks.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wonder about the Egyptian connection, between Atlantis. Where does that come from?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some other mysterious quote from Plato:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Now first of all we must recall the fact that 9000 is the sum of years since the war occurred, as is recorded, between the [Atlantes] dwellers beyond the pillars of Herakles and all that dwelt within them; which war we have now to relate in detail. It was stated that this city of ours [Athens] was in command of the one side and fought through the whole of the war, and in command of the other side were the kings of the island of Atlantis, which we said was an island larger than Libya and Asia once upon a time, but now lies sunk by earthquakes and has created a barrier of impassable mud  which prevents those who are sailing out from here to the ocean beyond from proceeding further.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ok, now what is this war? What is this?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some stuff about the rulers,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Concerning the allotments of the Gods, that they portioned out the whole earth, here into larger allotments and there into smaller, and provided for themselves  shrines and sacrifices, even so Poseidon took for his allotment the island of Atlantis and settled therein the children whom he had begotten of a mortal woman in a region of the island of the following description. Bordering on the sea and extending through the center of the whole island there was a plain, which is said to have been the fairest of all plains and highly fertile; and, moreover, near the plain, over against its center, at a distance of about 50 stades, there stood a mountain that was low on all sides. Thereon dwelt one of the natives originally sprung from the earth (autokhthones), Euenor by name, with his wife Leukippe; and they had for offspring an only-begotten daughter, Kleito. And when this damsel was now come to marriageable age, her mother died and also her father; and Poseidon, being smitten with desire for her, wedded her; and to make the hill whereon she dwelt impregnable he broke it off all round about; and he made circular belts of sea and land enclosing one another alternately, some greater, some smaller, two being of land and three of sea, which he carved as it were out of the midst of the island; and these belts were at even distances on all sides, so as to be impassable for man; for at that time neither ships nor sailing were as yet in existence. And Poseidon himself set in order with ease, as a god would, the central island, bringing up from beneath the earth two springs of waters, the one flowing warm from its source, the other cold, and producing out of the earth all kinds of food in plenty. And he begat five pairs of twin sons and reared them up; and when he had divided all the island of Atlantis into ten portions, he assigned to the first-born of the eldest sons  his mother's dwelling and the allotment surrounding it, which was the largest and best; and him he appointed to be king over the rest, and the others to be rulers, granting to each the rule over many men and a large tract of country. And to all of them he gave names, giving to him that was eldest and king the name after which the whole island was called and the sea spoken of as the Atlantic, because the first king who then reigned had the name of Atlas. And the name of his younger twin-brother,  who had for his portion the extremity of the island near the pillars of Herakles up to the part of the country now called Gadeira after the name of that region, was Eumelos in Greek, but in the native tongue Gadeiros,--which fact may have given its title to the country. And of the pair that were born next he called the one Ampheres and the other Euaimon; and of the third pair the elder was named Mneseus  and the younger Autokhthon; and of the fourth pair, he called the first Elasippos and the second Mestor; and of the fifth pair, Azaes was the name given to the elder, and Diaprepes to the second. So all these, themselves and their descendants, dwelt for many generations bearing rule over many other islands throughout the sea, and holding sway besides, as was previously stated, over the Mediterranean peoples as far as Aigyptos (Egypt) and Tyrrhenia [in Italy].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Describes the 10 Titans of above. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Random goodness of Atlantis... TL;DR Atlantis was a sort of paradise.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The springs they made use of, one kind being of cold, another of warm water, were of abundant volume, and each kind was wonderfully well adapted for use because of the natural taste and excellence of its waters; and these they surrounded with buildings and with plantations of trees such as suited the waters; and, moreover, they set reservoirs round about, some under the open sky, and others under cover to supply hot baths in the winter; they put separate baths for the kings and for the private citizens, besides others for women, and others again for horses and all other beasts of burden, fitting out each in an appropriate manner. And the outflowing water they conducted to the sacred grove of Poseidon, which contained trees of all kinds that were of marvellous beauty and height because of the richness of the soil; and by means of channels they led the water to the outer circles over against the bridges. And there they had constructed many temples for gods, and many gardens and many exercising grounds, some for men and some set apart for horses, in each of the circular belts of island; and besides the rest they had in the center of the large island a racecourse laid out for horses, which was a stade in width, while as to length, a strip which ran round the whole circumference was reserved for equestrian contests. And round about it, on this side and on that, were barracks for the greater part of the spearmen; but the guard-house of the more trusty of them was posted in the smaller circle, which was nearer the acropolis; while those who were the most trustworthy of all had dwellings granted to them within the acropolis round about the persons of the kings.&#xD;&#xA;And the shipyards were full of triremes and all the tackling that belongs to triremes, and they were all amply equipped.&#xD;&#xA;Such then was the state of things round about the abode of the kings. And after crossing the three outer harbors, one found a wall which began at the sea and ran round in a circle, at a uniform distance of fifty stades from the largest circle and harbor, and its ends converged at the seaward mouth of the channel. The whole of this wall had numerous houses built on to it, set close together; while the sea-way and the largest harbor were filled with ships and merchants coming from all quarters, which by reason of their multitude caused clamor and tumult of every description and an unceasing din night and day.&#xD;&#xA;Now as regards the city and the environs of the ancient dwelling we have now well-nigh completed the description as it was originally given. We must endeavor next to repeat the account of the rest of the country, what its natural character was, and in what fashion it was ordered. In the first place, then, according to the account, the whole region rose sheer out of the sea to a great height, but the part about the city was all a smooth plain, enclosing it round about, and being itself encircled by mountains which stretched as far as to the sea; and this plain had a level surface and was as a whole rectangular in shape, being 3000 stades long on either side and 2000 stades wide at its center, reckoning upwards from the sea. And this region, all along the island, faced towards the South and was sheltered from the Northern blasts. And the mountains which surrounded it were at that time celebrated as surpassing all that now exist in number, magnitude and beauty; for they had upon them many rich villages of country folk, and streams and lakes and meadows which furnished ample nutriment to all the animals both tame and wild, and timber of various sizes and descriptions, abundantly sufficient for the needs of all and every craft.&#xD;&#xA;Now as a result of natural forces, together with the labors of many kings which extended over many ages, the condition of the plain was this. It was originally a quadrangle, rectilinear for the most part, and elongated; and what it lacked of this shape they made right by means of a trench dug round about it. Now, as regards the depth of this trench and its breadth and length, it seems incredible that it should be so large as the account states, considering that it was made by hand, and in addition to all the other operations, but none the less we must report what we heard: it was dug out to the depth of a plethrum and to a uniform breadth of a stade, and since it was dug round the whole plain its consequent length was 10,000 stades. It received the streams which came down from the mountains and after circling round the plain, and coming towards the city on this side and on that, it discharged them thereabouts into the sea. And on the inland side of the city channels were cut in straight lines, of about 100 feet in width, across the plain, and these discharged themselves into the trench on the seaward side, the distance between each being 100 stades. It was in this way that they conveyed to the city the timber from the mountains and transported also on boats the seasons' products, by cutting transverse passages from one channel to the next and also to the city. And they cropped the land twice a year, making use of the rains from Heaven in the winter, and the waters that issue from the earth in summer, by conducting the streams from the trenches.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Manpower.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;As regards their manpower, it was ordained that each allotment should furnish one man as leader of all the men in the plain who were fit to bear arms; and the size of the allotment was about ten times ten stades, and the total number of all the allotments was 60,000; and the number of the men in the mountains and in the rest of the country was countless, according to the report, and according to their districts and villages they were all assigned to these allotments under their leaders. So it was ordained that each such leader should provide for war the sixth part of a war-chariots equipment, so as to make up 10,000 chariots in all, together with two horses and mounted men; also a pair of horses without a car, and attached thereto a combatant with a small shield and for charioteer the rider who springs from horse to horse; and two hoplites; and archers and slingers, two of each; and light-armed slingers and javelin-men, three of each; and four sailors towards the manning of twelve hundred ships. Such then were the military dispositions of the royal City; and those of the other nine varied in various ways, which it would take a long time to tell.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unstoppable,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Such was the magnitude and character of the power which existed in those regions at that time; and this power the God set in array and brought against these regions of ours on some such pretext as the following, according to the story. For many generations, so long as the inherited nature of the God remained strong in them, they were submissive to the laws and kindly disposed to their divine kindred. For the intents of their hearts were true and in all ways noble, and they showed gentleness joined with wisdom in dealing with the changes and chances of life and in their dealings one with another. Consequently they thought scorn of everything save virtue and lightly esteemed their rich possessions, bearing with ease the burden, as it were, of the vast volume of their gold and other goods; and thus their wealth did not make them drunk with pride so that they lost control of themselves and went to ruin; rather, in their soberness of mind they clearly saw that all these good things are increased by general amity combined with virtue, whereas the eager pursuit and worship of these goods not only causes the goods themselves to diminish but makes virtue also to perish with them. As a result, then, of such reasoning and of the continuance of their divine nature all their wealth had grown to such a greatness as we previously described. But when the portion of divinity within them was now becoming faint and weak through being oft times blended with a large measure of mortality, whereas the human temper was becoming dominant, then at length they lost their comeliness, through being unable to bear the burden of their possessions, and became ugly to look upon, in the eyes of him who has the gift of sight; for they had lost the fairest of their goods from the most precious of their parts; but in the eyes of those who have no gift of perceiving what is the truly happy life, it was then above all that they appeared to be superlatively fair and blessed, filled as they were with lawless ambition and power. And Zeus, the God of gods, who reigns by Law, inasmuch as he has the gift of perceiving such things, marked how this righteous race was in evil plight, and desired to inflict punishment upon them, to the end that when chastised they might strike a truer note.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More Plutarch,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Plato, ambitious to elaborate and adorn the subject of the lost Atlantis, as if it were the soil of a fair estate unoccupied, but appropriately his by virtue of some kinship with Solon, began the work by laying out great porches, enclosures, and courtyards, such as no story, tale, or poesy ever had before.  But he was late in beginning, and ended his life before his work. Therefore the greater our delight in what he actually wrote, the greater is our distress in view of what he left undone. For as the Olympieion in the city of Athens, so the tale of the lost Atlantis in the wisdom of Plato is the only one among many beautiful works to remain unfinished.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He wrote all that and never finished??? What??&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Phylos/Atlantes.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6871" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1583" RevisionGUID="2e315ab2-9218-4eac-91b0-9d76c6a305c7" CreationDate="2016-04-25T23:51:34.417" UserId="967" Comment="edited title" Text="Are there any good ancient examples for the monomyth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6872" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1612" RevisionGUID="4230f5e0-4cf5-47ce-b2d2-b469d24fe460" CreationDate="2016-04-26T00:03:43.480" UserId="967" Text="As writing an answer to my own question, I came across this,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;He [Solon] also spent some time in studies with Psenophis of Heliopolis [in Egypt] and Sonkhis (Sonchis) of Sais, who were very learned priests. From these, as Plato says, he heard the story of the lost Atlantis, and tried to introduce it in a poetical form to the Greeks.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the connection of the Greek and Egyptian myths about Atlantis?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6873" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1612" RevisionGUID="4230f5e0-4cf5-47ce-b2d2-b469d24fe460" CreationDate="2016-04-26T00:03:43.480" UserId="967" Text="What is the connection of Egyptian mythology to Atlantis?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6874" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1612" RevisionGUID="4230f5e0-4cf5-47ce-b2d2-b469d24fe460" CreationDate="2016-04-26T00:03:43.480" UserId="967" Text="|comparative|atlantis|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6875" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1612" RevisionGUID="9c5ea146-af79-45f3-a0f1-a1cdcdb42e04" CreationDate="2016-04-26T08:58:22.253" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|atlantis|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6876" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1613" RevisionGUID="c03903c6-3c2a-4ea1-b92e-b4673aff1e92" CreationDate="2016-04-26T12:25:31.433" UserId="229" Text="If there ever was one, we don't know what it was. Most likely, there never was one. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only real original source we have for the story of Atlantis is Plato. He used it as an allegory to help describe his vision of the best way to run things politically. It was sort of his equivalent of Thomas More's [Utopia][1]. The society itself appears to be very maritime (like Greece and decidedly unlike Egypt). It doesn't look at all like a myth an inland river-centered Egyptian would come up with.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All other sources we have for the story came after Plato, and seem to be based on his stories. So the most likely (and currently favored) supposition is that Plato himself made it up. Even if he didn't, he might as well have, because that's all we have.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopia_(book)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6880" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1615" RevisionGUID="106e9873-e3f0-430b-ae38-b1ff317fe204" CreationDate="2016-04-27T08:59:52.427" UserId="742" Text="We find in at least two instances the chief god of a pantheon being replaced by the younger storm god of that pantheon. For example, in Canaanite mythology, the supreme god El is replaced with the storm-god Baal as the main god, and, in Greek mythology, Cronus is replaced by the storm-god Zeus. (Are there any more examples of this phenomenon?) Did many cults make this switch at around the same time? Is the switch to revering a younger storm god a recognized development in the evolution of religions? Have there been any studies on this topic?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6881" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1615" RevisionGUID="106e9873-e3f0-430b-ae38-b1ff317fe204" CreationDate="2016-04-27T08:59:52.427" UserId="742" Text="Are there any studies of the historic phenomenon of the chief god of a pantheon being replaced by the storm god?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6882" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1615" RevisionGUID="106e9873-e3f0-430b-ae38-b1ff317fe204" CreationDate="2016-04-27T08:59:52.427" UserId="742" Text="|greek|comparative|gods|history|zeus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6883" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1596" RevisionGUID="88fbd890-1414-4c69-94f0-b48d94b5bdb6" CreationDate="2016-04-27T09:50:19.760" UserId="108" Comment="su wukon should count as mythological" Text="Does someone know what this ear stud shows?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Because of the Yin/Yang symbol it should be chinese - so no Yōkai.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Could it be a Yaoguai? A Huli jing?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have absolutely no idea but I just want to know it so badly!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;EDIT: I've heard another idea: Could this be Sun Wukong?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![stud][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/0Az2t.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6884" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1612" RevisionGUID="f286d212-948e-4940-a80b-6bd683648fa1" CreationDate="2016-04-27T15:47:36.287" UserId="967" Comment="added 85 characters in body" Text="As writing an answer to my own question, I came across this,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Plutarch, Life of Solon 26. 1 (trans. Perrin) (Greek historian C1st - C2nd A.D.) :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;He [Solon] also spent some time in studies with Psenophis of Heliopolis [in Egypt] and Sonkhis (Sonchis) of Sais, who were very learned priests. From these, as Plato says, he heard the story of the lost Atlantis, and tried to introduce it in a poetical form to the Greeks.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the connection of the Greek and Egyptian myths about Atlantis?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6885" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1616" RevisionGUID="b3100c1e-f0e9-4f66-baf9-2bd6faf62a65" CreationDate="2016-04-27T19:14:23.043" UserId="1511" Text="I would like to delve in Norse Mythology, but there is an extreme difference between the versions of it I come upon. I am most fascinated with the idea, that the Goddesses of Freya and Frigg are one being and Odin is actually Freya's consort. Where can I read more about this?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6886" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1616" RevisionGUID="b3100c1e-f0e9-4f66-baf9-2bd6faf62a65" CreationDate="2016-04-27T19:14:23.043" UserId="1511" Text="What's The Best Source On Odin and Freya?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6887" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1616" RevisionGUID="b3100c1e-f0e9-4f66-baf9-2bd6faf62a65" CreationDate="2016-04-27T19:14:23.043" UserId="1511" Text="|norse|odin|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6889" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1612" RevisionGUID="232643b2-1e1f-4ebf-8c2c-bad15c7bac9d" CreationDate="2016-04-27T21:39:11.767" UserId="967" Comment="added 11 characters in body" Text="As writing an answer to my own question, I came across this,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Plutarch, Life of Solon 26. 1 (trans. Perrin) (Greek historian C1st - C2nd A.D.) :&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;He [Solon] also spent some time in studies with Psenophis of Heliopolis [in Egypt] and Sonkhis (Sonchis) of Sais, who were very learned priests. From these, as Plato says, he heard the story of the lost Atlantis, and tried to introduce it in a poetical form to the Greeks.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the connection of the Greek and Egyptian myths about Atlantis?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6890" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1617" RevisionGUID="30d0227c-2fd3-405e-94cc-fd0b92625233" CreationDate="2016-04-28T06:28:05.820" UserId="111" Text="The best original sources are the [Poetic Edda](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda) and the [Prose Edda](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Prose_Edda).  &#xD;&#xA;You can also find skaldic poems on a [website](https://www.abdn.ac.uk/skaldic/m.php?p=skaldic) curated by the University of Aberdeen.  &#xD;&#xA;As far as academic work on the subject are concerned, Mogk's [*Germanische Mythologie*](https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_f1YcAAAAMAAJ) seems to discuss about Frigg and Freya from pages 369 to 373, though the text is in german; and Stephan Grundy wrote a chapter on Freya and Frigg in [*The Concept of the Goddess*](https://books.google.de/books?id=8RfCB4rik7MC&amp;lpg=PA59&amp;vq=Frigg&amp;pg=PA56#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Concerning the identification of Freya to Frigg it seems to come in part from stanza 14 of [Grimnismál](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gr%C3%ADmnism%C3%A1l) (which is part of the Poetic Edda) in which the person described is Frigg but that person is referred to as Freya:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 14. Fólkvangr er inn níundi,  &#xD;&#xA;en þar Freyja ræðr  &#xD;&#xA;sessa kostum í sal;  &#xD;&#xA;halfan val  &#xD;&#xA;hon kýss hverjan dag,  &#xD;&#xA;en halfan Óðinn á.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Grismnismál](http://heimskringla.no/wiki/Gr%C3%ADmnism%C3%A1l), 14.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;which translates as:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 14. Folkvang is the ninth,  &#xD;&#xA;there Freya directs  &#xD;&#xA;the sittings in the hall.  &#xD;&#xA;She half the fallen select  &#xD;&#xA;and kiss each day,  &#xD;&#xA;but Odin th' other half.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Translation found on [Wikisource](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda/Gr%C3%ADmnism%C3%A1l).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some commentators consider it to be just a mistake made by the poet, though." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6891" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1617" RevisionGUID="b7e53633-4f41-419a-98fb-131dce210386" CreationDate="2016-04-28T06:35:50.803" UserId="111" Comment="added 143 characters in body" Text="The best original sources are the [Poetic Edda](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda) and the [Prose Edda](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Prose_Edda).  &#xD;&#xA;You can also find skaldic poems on a [website](https://www.abdn.ac.uk/skaldic/m.php?p=skaldic) curated by the University of Aberdeen.  &#xD;&#xA;As far as academic work on the subject are concerned, Mogk's [*Germanische Mythologie*](https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_f1YcAAAAMAAJ) seems to discuss about Frigg and Freya from pages 369 to 373, though the text is in german (Mogk is one of the scholar who identified Oðinn with Oðr, so I assume he has something to say also on the identification of Frigg with Freya); and more recently Stephan Grundy wrote a chapter on Freya and Frigg in [*The Concept of the Goddess*](https://books.google.de/books?id=8RfCB4rik7MC&amp;lpg=PA59&amp;vq=Frigg&amp;pg=PA56#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6892" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1617" RevisionGUID="889a8d47-7c6a-4d33-9a99-a6b4aa980fe2" CreationDate="2016-04-28T07:10:12.923" UserId="111" Comment="added 21 characters in body" Text="The best original sources for Norse Mythology are the [Poetic Edda](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda) and the [Prose Edda](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Prose_Edda).   You can also find skaldic poems on a [website](https://www.abdn.ac.uk/skaldic/m.php?p=skaldic) curated by the University of Aberdeen.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as academic work on the subject are concerned, Mogk's [*Germanische Mythologie*](https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_f1YcAAAAMAAJ) seems to discuss about Frigg and Freya from pages 369 to 373, though the text is in german (Mogk is one of the scholar who identified Oðinn with Oðr, so I assume he has something to say also on the identification of Frigg with Freya); and more recently Stephan Grundy wrote a chapter on Freya and Frigg in [*The Concept of the Goddess*](https://books.google.de/books?id=8RfCB4rik7MC&amp;lpg=PA59&amp;vq=Frigg&amp;pg=PA56#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6893" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1618" RevisionGUID="ec6a6e58-993b-4dd7-bae4-b57e29cacba0" CreationDate="2016-04-28T08:07:19.257" UserId="1511" Text="I am very fascinated with the notion that there exist significant parallels between mythologies - may be different reincarnations of the same God?&#xD;&#xA;For instance, we know that Hermes is Mercury, but he is also related to Odin/Woden, and Buddha, and Amon-Ra, and Moses, and Votan of the Mayas...I am really intrigued by these parallels in mythologies...where can I read more about that?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6894" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1618" RevisionGUID="ec6a6e58-993b-4dd7-bae4-b57e29cacba0" CreationDate="2016-04-28T08:07:19.257" UserId="1511" Text="Where Can I Study Parallel Mythologies" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6895" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1618" RevisionGUID="ec6a6e58-993b-4dd7-bae4-b57e29cacba0" CreationDate="2016-04-28T08:07:19.257" UserId="1511" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6897" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1619" RevisionGUID="07b02904-c3a9-4505-b01a-d1489d64e314" CreationDate="2016-04-28T10:30:43.157" UserId="1513" Text="I thought the faeries swapped their offspring with human babies because faerie children were weak and frail, and that's why they got the human mothers to raise their faerie children; so they they could grow strong. I'm not too sure, but I think it's commonly thought that the humans they steal are slaves and when the faerie child is older and stronger, they take it back, and keep the human children as servents. But it's widely speculated and as you can probably guess, there isn't a concrete theory.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6898" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1618" RevisionGUID="bf96d979-3720-4311-a033-c2d5978a8b22" CreationDate="2016-04-28T13:49:47.560" UserId="967" Comment="formatting, question" Text="I am very fascinated with the notion that there are significant parallels between mythologies - there may be different reincarnations of the same God?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For instance, we know that Hermes is Mercury, but he is also related to Odin/Woden, and Buddha, and Amon-Ra, and Moses, and Votan of the Mayas...I am really intrigued by these parallels in mythologies...where can I read more about that?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6899" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1618" RevisionGUID="bf96d979-3720-4311-a033-c2d5978a8b22" CreationDate="2016-04-28T13:49:47.560" UserId="967" Comment="formatting, question" Text="Where Can I Study Parallel Mythologies?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6900" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1619" RevisionGUID="92758812-ed0e-4eaf-af70-6fdbc94f7f88" CreationDate="2016-04-28T22:03:49.333" UserId="967" Comment="fixed spelling / grammar" Text="Faeries swapped their offspring with human babies because faerie children were weak and frail, and that's why they got the human mothers to raise their faerie children; so that they could grow strong. I'm not too sure, but I think it's commonly thought that the humans they steal are slaves and when the faerie child is older and stronger, they take it back, and keep the human children as servants. But it's widely speculated and there isn't a concrete theory.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6901" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1608" RevisionGUID="5f7dddc3-f533-4b48-bbbf-6bffb1b6fd62" CreationDate="2016-04-28T22:06:22.807" UserId="1076" Comment="added 75 characters in body" Text="For questions related to the second part of (Snorri Sturluson's) Prose Edda" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6902" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1608" RevisionGUID="5f7dddc3-f533-4b48-bbbf-6bffb1b6fd62" CreationDate="2016-04-28T22:06:22.807" Comment="Proposed by 1076 approved by 42, 183 edit id of 318" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6909" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="892" RevisionGUID="ad475006-a32d-4655-8158-5dcef589c2bf" CreationDate="2016-04-30T23:33:44.913" UserId="183" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:183,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;HDE 226868&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="6910" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1622" RevisionGUID="04454a8d-cd20-48b4-b50d-c9fca328dc38" CreationDate="2016-05-01T09:17:29.100" UserId="1525" Text="If there was a diagram with every god in it, that would be cool, but I doubt you can find that, so a number will do I guess." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6911" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1622" RevisionGUID="04454a8d-cd20-48b4-b50d-c9fca328dc38" CreationDate="2016-05-01T09:17:29.100" UserId="1525" Text="How many gods/goddesses are there in total in greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6912" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1622" RevisionGUID="04454a8d-cd20-48b4-b50d-c9fca328dc38" CreationDate="2016-05-01T09:17:29.100" UserId="1525" Text="|greek|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6913" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1622" RevisionGUID="03e9d7d1-0ca1-4c24-8cea-54631a26fd04" CreationDate="2016-05-01T19:30:09.153" UserId="967" Comment="question needed in passage" Text="If there was a diagram with every god in it, that would be cool, but I doubt you can find that, so a number will do I guess.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How many gods/goddesses are there in total in greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6914" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1623" RevisionGUID="9f013e37-e01d-46d1-a7e3-403613b52d86" CreationDate="2016-05-01T19:37:34.893" UserId="967" Text="A lot.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Theoi has a nice family tree-&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![fam tree][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And so you count, and get a total of...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#3142 gods/godesses&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you count the Potami, Naiads, and Astriaos as 1 god/goddess, and including Titans as gods.&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/1SqKJ.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6915" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1623" RevisionGUID="8019b886-bce3-4a0c-9e7e-1964461b7576" CreationDate="2016-05-02T00:33:07.963" UserId="967" Comment="added 54 characters in body" Text="A lot.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Theoi][1] has a nice family tree-&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![fam tree][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And so you count, and get a total of...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#3142 gods/godesses&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you count the Potami, Naiads, and Astriaos as 1 god/goddess, and including Titans as gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Tree0Latin.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/1SqKJ.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6916" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1624" RevisionGUID="70897ec3-a3c1-4b3d-be58-c9431fdbb6aa" CreationDate="2016-05-02T12:37:01.440" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="I would take a look at the field of folkloristics/folklore studies. This branch of academia is very concerned with the comparative method (i.e. comparisons between cultures), and they've done extensive studies of parallels in the stories of different cultures. One example of this: folklorists are the people who create [motive indexes][1], which are essentially extensive lists of parallels between the stories of different cultures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of what to read: any book by Alan Dundes is a good bet ([you probably will be able to find one of his books in a local library][2]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm sure you've been told to read something by Joseph Campbell (or someone similar). Feel free to read his books -- they're entertaining and interesting -- but they have a some problems and should be taken with a grain of salt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/1262/62&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=au%3Aalan%20dundes&amp;qt=advanced&amp;dblist=638" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6918" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1625" RevisionGUID="cba85be0-78cf-47b1-a02a-7f27f1644ba8" CreationDate="2016-05-02T20:53:31.500" UserId="1529" Text="This depends entirely on your stance of if you're asking for a *sky god* or if you'd prefer only *&quot;outer space&quot;*, so to speak. Given that these are ancient cultures / mythologies we're discussing, it stands to point that perhaps they would have seen the two as synonymous, which was why historically the sky gods were said to be most powerful. For instance, some accounts that I've read in the past read that Zeus became King of the Gods only after he had drawn the lot for the sky, as opposed to either of his brothers (this can also be contested that he became King due to the fact that he was the one who overthrew his father and had to rescue his siblings, which is the most widely accepted version I've ever come across).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going back the furthest you can in Greek mythology:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - There will be [Chaos][1], which was accepted as the &quot;oblivion&quot; or the unknown, and the first being to give birth to all others.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Some accounts tell of the Titan Queen [Eurynome][2] (commonly mistaken with Zeus' third bride, and some accounts have them as one and the same person who was an Oceanid).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - And of course there is also Ouranos, who is well known as the father of Kronos and the rest of the Titans, and he was depicted as the night sky that hung over the earth, the lover and husband of Gaia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.paleothea.com/Myths/Eurynome.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6919" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1626" RevisionGUID="6278e7f7-7874-4105-a7ca-2b5ffd0ef4e2" CreationDate="2016-05-03T00:33:57.490" UserId="1532" Text="I've been really interested in it for a long time but I have no idea where to ask for advice or whom to believe. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6920" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1626" RevisionGUID="6278e7f7-7874-4105-a7ca-2b5ffd0ef4e2" CreationDate="2016-05-03T00:33:57.490" UserId="1532" Text="Could someone tell me about good books about hawaiian mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6921" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1626" RevisionGUID="6278e7f7-7874-4105-a7ca-2b5ffd0ef4e2" CreationDate="2016-05-03T00:33:57.490" UserId="1532" Text="|hawaiian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6922" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1626" RevisionGUID="18b7604c-b768-4e2e-a4d6-2f0ad6341496" CreationDate="2016-05-03T00:46:19.350" UserId="967" Comment="question needed in passage" Text="Could someone tell me about good books about Hawaiian mythology?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've been really interested in it for a long time but I have no idea where to ask for advice or whom to believe. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6923" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1626" RevisionGUID="18b7604c-b768-4e2e-a4d6-2f0ad6341496" CreationDate="2016-05-03T00:46:19.350" UserId="967" Comment="question needed in passage" Text="Could someone tell me about good books about Hawaiian mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6925" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1627" RevisionGUID="c7a47cc2-15e6-49d9-9493-b6a49b76fd51" CreationDate="2016-05-03T06:09:25.940" UserId="1533" Text="I'm starting a roleplaying game soon where all of the players play as princesses from various myths, stories, fables, etc.  I had the idea of trying to play as a unicorn princess, but I can't find a reference to any kind of unicorn royalty before the 80s.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a myth that specifically references a unicorn that is royalty?  It doesn't matter to me if the unicorn is a queen, princess, or given any other royal title, as long as it is royal in some way." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6926" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1627" RevisionGUID="c7a47cc2-15e6-49d9-9493-b6a49b76fd51" CreationDate="2016-05-03T06:09:25.940" UserId="1533" Text="Is there a mythological basis for the idea of a unicorn princess?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6927" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1627" RevisionGUID="c7a47cc2-15e6-49d9-9493-b6a49b76fd51" CreationDate="2016-05-03T06:09:25.940" UserId="1533" Text="|mythical-creatures|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6928" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1628" RevisionGUID="e53f77a6-95ee-469f-9064-27ae83ecc317" CreationDate="2016-05-03T12:59:42.443" UserId="1241" Text="There is no textual support for the idea of a female souvereign of unicorns!   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is however is a legend of [The Unicorn and the Virgin.][1] Many Christians, especially Catholics, take this virgin to symbolize the Virgin Mary. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The idea of a princess or queen of the unicorn could possibly taken from the Hebrew meaning of the name of Mary. This Wikipedia [link][2] states that &quot;the Hebrew name of Mary, Miryãm, (in Latin Domina) means lady or sovereign.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [Litany of Loretto][3] in honour of the Virgin Mary there are twelve invocations of Mary under the title queen:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Queen of Angels, pray for us. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Queen of Patriarchs, pray for us.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Queen of Prophets, pray for us. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Queen of Apostles, pray for us.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Queen of Martyrs, pray for us. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Queen of Confessors, pray for us. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Queen of Virgins, pray for us.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Queen of all Saints, pray for us.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Queen conceived without original sin, pray for us. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Queen assumed into heaven, pray for us. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Queen of the most holy Rosary, pray for us. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Queen of Peace, pray for us. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, I conclude that the only princess or queen of the unicorn could possibly be symbolized in person of the Virgin Mary.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://campus.udayton.edu/mary/resources/Unicorn/MaryandtheUnicorn.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Name_of_Mary&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/liturgicalyear/prayers/view.cfm?id=870" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6929" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1628" RevisionGUID="25350a67-9ca4-41da-b1bf-79606291e575" CreationDate="2016-05-03T13:09:00.977" UserId="1241" Comment="added 7 characters in body" Text="There is no direct textual support for the idea of a female souvereign of unicorns!   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is however is a legend of [The Unicorn and the Virgin.][1] Many Christians, especially Catholics, take this virgin to symbolize the Virgin Mary. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The idea of a princess or queen of the unicorn could possibly taken from the Hebrew meaning of the name of Mary. This Wikipedia [link][2] states that &quot;the Hebrew name of Mary, Miryãm, (in Latin Domina) means lady or sovereign.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [Litany of Loretto][3] in honour of the Virgin Mary there are twelve invocations of Mary under the title queen:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Queen of Angels, pray for us. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Queen of Patriarchs, pray for us.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Queen of Prophets, pray for us. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Queen of Apostles, pray for us.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Queen of Martyrs, pray for us. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Queen of Confessors, pray for us. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Queen of Virgins, pray for us.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Queen of all Saints, pray for us.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Queen conceived without original sin, pray for us. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Queen assumed into heaven, pray for us. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Queen of the most holy Rosary, pray for us. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Queen of Peace, pray for us. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, I conclude that the only princess or queen of the unicorn could possibly be symbolized in person of the Virgin Mary.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://campus.udayton.edu/mary/resources/Unicorn/MaryandtheUnicorn.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Name_of_Mary&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/liturgicalyear/prayers/view.cfm?id=870" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6933" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1630" RevisionGUID="a876a68a-b1ee-4f4a-9475-c3f0302912dc" CreationDate="2016-05-03T19:45:05.530" UserId="42" Text="Taking a somewhat broad interpretation of &quot;unicorn&quot; and &quot;princess&quot;, we have **Indrik**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From russian folklore, a huge chimerical creature, who is referred to as the mother (or lord, or father) of all beasts.  It has a horn, and it's [name derives from the Russian word for unicorn](http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&amp;morpho=0&amp;basename=%5Cdata%5Cie%5Cvasmer&amp;first=1&amp;text_word=%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B4%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BA&amp;method_word=substring&amp;text_general=&amp;method_general=substring&amp;text_origin=&amp;method_origin=substring&amp;text_trubachev=&amp;method_trubachev=substring&amp;text_editorial=&amp;method_editorial=substring&amp;text_pages=&amp;method_pages=substring&amp;text_any=&amp;method_any=substring&amp;sort=word).  I've seen it described in a number of places as having the body of a bull and the head of a horse, however, I was surprised to find I couldn't find a good source for that.  The source linked below does draw the conclusion that the creature may have been a combination of more familiar unicorn myths with the rhinoceros (page 162).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; P. 269  &#xD;&#xA;Our *Indrik* beast is mother to all beasts,  &#xD;&#xA;It lives in the holy mountain  &#xD;&#xA;And prays to God for the holy mountain.  &#xD;&#xA;When this beast starts playing,  &#xD;&#xA;It is like the clouds under heaven.  &#xD;&#xA;...  &#xD;&#xA;P. 280  &#xD;&#xA;And he (*Indrik*) drinks and eats from the blue sea,  &#xD;&#xA;Does nobody and harm,  &#xD;&#xA;And he goes by means of his horn under the earth  &#xD;&#xA;Like the sun under heaven.  &#xD;&#xA;When this beast turns with his horn,  &#xD;&#xA;All the earthly beasts bow down to him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; From &quot;The rime of the Book of the Dove (Stikh o Golubinoi knige): From Zoroastrian cosmology and Armenian heresiology to the Russion novel&quot; By James R. Russell, [From Daēnā to Dîn](https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&amp;lr=&amp;id=VKS_C45BSOAC&amp;oi=fnd&amp;pg=PA141#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false) , page 183.  Attributed to:  Sbornik Kirshi Danilova, Moscow 1977, ed. tr. by J. R. Russell.&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6935" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1630" RevisionGUID="7b2e14a8-31b4-41d6-8e9e-1bb14ac72e18" CreationDate="2016-05-04T01:55:28.100" UserId="42" Comment="edited body" Text="Taking a somewhat broad interpretation of &quot;unicorn&quot; and &quot;princess&quot;, we have **Indrik**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From russian folklore, a huge chimerical creature, who is referred to as the mother (or lord, or father) of all beasts.  It has a horn, and it's [name derives from the Russian word for unicorn](http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&amp;morpho=0&amp;basename=%5Cdata%5Cie%5Cvasmer&amp;first=1&amp;text_word=%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B4%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BA&amp;method_word=substring&amp;text_general=&amp;method_general=substring&amp;text_origin=&amp;method_origin=substring&amp;text_trubachev=&amp;method_trubachev=substring&amp;text_editorial=&amp;method_editorial=substring&amp;text_pages=&amp;method_pages=substring&amp;text_any=&amp;method_any=substring&amp;sort=word).  I've seen it described in a number of places as having the body of a bull and the head of a horse, however, I was surprised to find I couldn't find a good source for that.  The source linked below does draw the conclusion that the creature may have been a combination of more familiar unicorn myths with the rhinoceros (page 162).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; P. 269  &#xD;&#xA;Our *Indrik* beast is mother to all beasts,  &#xD;&#xA;It lives in the holy mountain  &#xD;&#xA;And prays to God for the holy mountain.  &#xD;&#xA;When this beast starts playing,  &#xD;&#xA;It is like the clouds under heaven.  &#xD;&#xA;...  &#xD;&#xA;P. 280  &#xD;&#xA;And he (*Indrik*) drinks and eats from the blue sea,  &#xD;&#xA;Does nobody any harm,  &#xD;&#xA;And he goes by means of his horn under the earth  &#xD;&#xA;Like the sun under heaven.  &#xD;&#xA;When this beast turns with his horn,  &#xD;&#xA;All the earthly beasts bow down to him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; From &quot;The rime of the Book of the Dove (Stikh o Golubinoi knige): From Zoroastrian cosmology and Armenian heresiology to the Russion novel&quot; By James R. Russell, [From Daēnā to Dîn](https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&amp;lr=&amp;id=VKS_C45BSOAC&amp;oi=fnd&amp;pg=PA141#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false) , page 183.  Attributed to:  Sbornik Kirshi Danilova, Moscow 1977, ed. tr. by J. R. Russell.&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6936" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1631" RevisionGUID="1d5a4179-59cc-4b00-a591-c141eb00a042" CreationDate="2016-05-04T09:15:30.147" UserId="111" Text="As mentions by @bleh in a comment, [Hawaiian Mythology](http://sacred-texts.com/pac/hm/index.htm) by Martha Warren Beckwith (1940) seems like a good start. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [references](http://sacred-texts.com/pac/hm/hm42.htm) section of this book you will find a large amount of books/scholarly articles on polynesian and hawaiian mythology. Among the hawaiian references, some names of scholars pop up frequently: those of Joseph S. Emerson and Nathaniel B. Emerson (sons of a missionary), but also [Mary Kawena Pukui](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Kawena_Pukui) and Laura Green.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The page on the website [sacred-texts.com](http://sacred-texts.com/pac/index.htm) on Pacific mythologies contains also several other works, in addition to 'Hawaiian Mythology', by Martha W. Beckwith and by W. D. Westervelt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The works of these few scholars should already cover a significant portion of the subject, I think." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6940" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1633" RevisionGUID="a977f67f-84c6-4abb-aa07-0cce6fa4f960" CreationDate="2016-05-05T00:29:23.523" UserId="292" Text="THe closest thing to a god of the cosmos in Norse myth would be Ymir, [the first being][1]. The ice of the cold realm of Nifhel and fire from the realm of Muspellheim met in the space between, Ginnungagap, to make Ymir. He was suckled by a cow, Audhumla. Another giant was born from between his feet, and a man and woman from his armpit.&#xD;&#xA;Later, the god Odin and his brothers killed him, and made the world from his dismembered body. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As *[Grimnismal][2]* says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 40. Out of Ymir's flesh | was fashioned the earth, &#xD;&#xA;And the ocean out of his blood; &#xD;&#xA;Of his bones the hills, | of his hair the trees, &#xD;&#xA;Of his skull the heavens high.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 41. Mithgarth the gods | from his eyebrows made, &#xD;&#xA;And set for the sons of men; &#xD;&#xA;And out of his brain | the baleful clouds &#xD;&#xA;They made to move on high.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All this implies that there was something (and a cow) there before him, but it was in a pretty chaotic state. Unlike Nun, Atum, or Ouranos, Ymir literally *is* the cosmos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.ca/books?id=lTx8CgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT25&amp;lpg=PT25&amp;dq=Ymir%20Prose%20Edda&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=xssnEv3JkJ&amp;sig=XCzgylAniq9PtseXmYtaKchVfkQ&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwj4lYTH1cHMAhUMBBoKHUU9DQUQ6AEIVDAJ#v=onepage&amp;q=Ymir%20Prose%20Edda&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe06.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6943" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1634" RevisionGUID="9d797a0b-e29a-4262-adf3-f4f1a4f92d5e" CreationDate="2016-05-08T06:00:16.130" UserId="1551" Text="I got this as a gift and I originally thought it was a foo dog but it has both paws on turtles, not on a cub or ball as foo dogs do. I think it may be a Pi Yao or Pixiu but i'm not so sure. Any and all help would be appreciated!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/jOHYa.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6944" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1634" RevisionGUID="9d797a0b-e29a-4262-adf3-f4f1a4f92d5e" CreationDate="2016-05-08T06:00:16.130" UserId="1551" Text="Can anyone identify this Chinese mythology creature this is?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6945" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1634" RevisionGUID="9d797a0b-e29a-4262-adf3-f4f1a4f92d5e" CreationDate="2016-05-08T06:00:16.130" UserId="1551" Text="|mythical-creatures|chinese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6946" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1634" RevisionGUID="b9ea93d4-c48f-4cdd-89be-fda940636be6" CreationDate="2016-05-08T06:05:23.783" UserId="1551" Comment="edited title" Text="Can anyone identify what Chinese mythology creature this is?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6947" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1635" RevisionGUID="686e406b-98bd-454b-b372-a6b33b51c1d6" CreationDate="2016-05-08T09:45:48.833" UserId="1552" Text="My name is Emerson C Velloso, and this is my archaeoastronomical contribution to Professor Michael S Heiser:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The man seated is Ninurta, He's not only the God of the Farmers and Plow, He is also the God of War, related to the planet Saturn!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The big star in the center is Saturn.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;   [![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/uospw.jpg&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6949" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1635" RevisionGUID="169b7f75-0bcb-40e0-8b29-508ade4e1106" CreationDate="2016-05-08T16:33:02.290" UserId="42" Comment="added 298 characters in body" Text="My name is Emerson C Velloso, and this is my archaeoastronomical contribution to Professor Michael S Heiser:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The man seated is Ninurta, He's not only the God of the Farmers and Plow, He is also the God of War, related to the planet Saturn!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The big star in the center is Saturn.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;   [![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These Akkadian representations are not realistic, but only systematic...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;even so, the astronomical order is right: the planets on the ecliptic trajectory passes between Betelgeuse/Aldebaran and the Pleiades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/uospw.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/TgOg0.jpg&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6952" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1637" RevisionGUID="cc5fcd9c-b48d-4bcf-9667-b3851e3cda55" CreationDate="2016-05-09T09:11:11.060" UserId="111" Text="The main issue here to answer this question is that we don't know anything about Óðr. He is only mentioned in :  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. the paragraph you quoted from the *Gylfaginning*;  &#xD;&#xA;2. stanza 25 of the *Völuspá*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Þá gengu regin öll á rökstóla,  &#xD;&#xA;ginnheilug goð, ok um þat gættusk:  &#xD;&#xA;hverr hefði lopt allt lævi blandit  &#xD;&#xA;eða ætt jötuns Óðs mey gefna.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;which translates to:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then sought the gods | their assembly-seats,  &#xD;&#xA;The holy ones, | and council held,  &#xD;&#xA;To find who with venom | the air had filled,  &#xD;&#xA;Or had given Oth's bride | to the giants' brood.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. In Snorri's *Skáldskaparmál*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ok hér hefir Einarr enn kennt svá Freyju at kalla hana móður Hnossar eða konu Óðs, svá sem hér:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 107.   &#xD;&#xA;Eigi þverr fyrir augna     &#xD;&#xA;Óðs beðvinu Róða     &#xD;&#xA;ræfrs, eignisk svá, regni     &#xD;&#xA;ramsvell, konungr elli.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;which translates to:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And here Einarr has further periphrased Freyja so as to call her Mother of Hnoss, or Wife of Ódr, as standeth below:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The shield, tempest's strong roof-ice,  &#xD;&#xA;With tear-gold is unminished,  &#xD;&#xA;Eye-rain of Ódr's Bed-Mate:  &#xD;&#xA;His age the King so useth.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;the latter part being taken from a skaldic poem: Einarr Skúlason's [*Øxarflokkr*](https://www.abdn.ac.uk/skaldic/m.php?p=verse&amp;i=2125). He also appears in a small amount of other skaldic poems but everytime as a *kenning* for Freyja (i. e. Freyja being referred to as &quot;Óðr's wife&quot;).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, basically, he is only known as married to Freyja and as being on a &quot;long trip&quot;, so there seem to be no original source explaining which trip he is undertaking.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you mentioned there has been a lot of speculation on Óðr being in fact Óðin, and Freyja being Frigg but as Hollander (1950) mentions in his article *[The Old Norse God Óðr](http://www.jstor.org/stable/27713180)*, the fact that Freyja is weeping for him and go on a search for him, doesn't really fit the association as Frigg knows all fate, including that Óðin dies during Ragnarok, (so why would she weep for him?) and that Hnoss would not be their only child.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a side point, and to make things more complicated, the adjective [*óðr*](https://www.abdn.ac.uk/skaldic/m.php?p=word&amp;i=60644)  can be found frequently in skaldic poetry as it simply means [*furious*](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%C3%B3%C3%B0r)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6954" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1637" RevisionGUID="cf17197c-cb51-4e60-9a32-db344a9ecb86" CreationDate="2016-05-09T13:27:36.907" UserId="111" Comment="added 37 characters in body" Text="The main issue here to answer this question is that we don't know anything about Óðr. He is only mentioned in :  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. the paragraph you quoted from the *Gylfaginning*;  &#xD;&#xA;2. stanza 25 of the *Völuspá*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Þá gengu regin öll á rökstóla,  &#xD;&#xA;ginnheilug goð, ok um þat gættusk:  &#xD;&#xA;hverr hefði lopt allt lævi blandit  &#xD;&#xA;eða ætt jötuns Óðs mey gefna.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;which translates to:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then sought the gods | their assembly-seats,  &#xD;&#xA;The holy ones, | and council held,  &#xD;&#xA;To find who with venom | the air had filled,  &#xD;&#xA;Or had given Oth's bride | to the giants' brood.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. In Snorri's *Skáldskaparmál*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ok hér hefir Einarr enn kennt svá Freyju at kalla hana móður Hnossar eða konu Óðs, svá sem hér:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 107.   &#xD;&#xA;Eigi þverr fyrir augna     &#xD;&#xA;Óðs beðvinu Róða     &#xD;&#xA;ræfrs, eignisk svá, regni     &#xD;&#xA;ramsvell, konungr elli.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;which translates to:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And here Einarr has further periphrased Freyja so as to call her Mother of Hnoss, or Wife of Ódr, as standeth below:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The shield, tempest's strong roof-ice,  &#xD;&#xA;With tear-gold is unminished,  &#xD;&#xA;Eye-rain of Ódr's Bed-Mate:  &#xD;&#xA;His age the King so useth.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;the latter part being taken from a skaldic poem: Einarr Skúlason's [*Øxarflokkr*](https://www.abdn.ac.uk/skaldic/m.php?p=verse&amp;i=2125).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He also appears in a small amount of other skaldic poems but every time, as in the few examples above, as a *kenning* for Freyja (i. e. Freyja being referred to as &quot;Óðr's wife&quot;).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, basically, he is only known as married to Freyja and as being on a &quot;long trip&quot;, so there seem to be no original source explaining which trip he is undertaking.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you mentioned there has been a lot of speculation on Óðr being in fact Óðin, and Freyja being Frigg but as Hollander (1950) mentions in his article *[The Old Norse God Óðr](http://www.jstor.org/stable/27713180)*, the fact that Freyja is weeping for him and go on a search for him, doesn't really fit the association as Frigg knows all fate, including that Óðin dies during Ragnarok, (so why would she weep for him?) and that Hnoss would not be their only child.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a side point, and to make things more complicated, the adjective [*óðr*](https://www.abdn.ac.uk/skaldic/m.php?p=word&amp;i=60644)  can be found frequently in skaldic poetry as it simply means [*furious*](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%C3%B3%C3%B0r)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6956" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1634" RevisionGUID="acc8df00-e568-4b10-8c98-f9b05e9ed49a" CreationDate="2016-05-09T21:59:23.657" UserId="967" Comment="Throwing out useless stuff" Text="I got this as a gift and I originally thought it was a foo dog but it has both paws on turtles, not on a cub or ball as foo dogs do. It may be a Pi Yao or Pixiu but I'm not so sure.&#xD;&#xA;[![Image][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/jOHYa.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6957" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1638" RevisionGUID="f62a22b1-af12-4095-b92c-9c2ad94aec9c" CreationDate="2016-05-11T01:14:01.187" UserId="1317" Text="Since it has hooves (not paws) and horns, it is almost certainly a [qilin][1] or &quot;Chinese unicorn&quot;. I don't know why it is standing on four turtles, except that the turtle and qilin were two of the four divine creatures, along with the phoenix and dragon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qilin" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6958" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1638" RevisionGUID="84400f59-c2ea-450b-b69f-60f697aa9eb4" CreationDate="2016-05-11T01:25:11.660" UserId="1317" Comment="Add speculation about eggs and another link" Text="Since it has hooves (not paws) and horns, it is almost certainly a [qilin][1] or &quot;Chinese unicorn&quot;. I don't know why it is standing on four turtles, except that the turtle and qilin were two of the [sishou][2] or &quot;four divine creatures&quot;, along with the phoenix and dragon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They could be guarding dragon and phoenix eggs (the red spheres are different sizes) but this is just a guess.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qilin&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[2]:www.onmarkproductions.com/html/ssu-ling.shtml" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6959" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1638" RevisionGUID="5b8a9cfc-fa3d-45fc-9f65-b8dac3182a75" CreationDate="2016-05-11T01:30:33.593" UserId="1317" Comment="Fix link" Text="Since it has hooves (not paws) and horns, it is almost certainly a [qilin][1] or &quot;Chinese unicorn&quot;. I don't know why it is standing on four turtles, except that the turtle and qilin were two of the [sishou][2] or &quot;four divine creatures&quot;, along with the phoenix and dragon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They could be guarding dragon and phoenix eggs (the red spheres are different sizes) but this is just a guess.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qilin&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[2]:http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/ssu-ling.shtml" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6960" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1639" RevisionGUID="53cba4b8-6fe2-42a5-b379-9d489576cd76" CreationDate="2016-05-11T15:47:51.883" UserId="967" Text="In 2 of the games I play, there is &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- In Drive Ahead, a mini-boss is Krampus on a mission for Christmas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- In Terraria, during the Frost Moon, Krampus spawns.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the origin of it?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6961" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1639" RevisionGUID="53cba4b8-6fe2-42a5-b379-9d489576cd76" CreationDate="2016-05-11T15:47:51.883" UserId="967" Text="What is the origin of Krampus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6962" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1639" RevisionGUID="53cba4b8-6fe2-42a5-b379-9d489576cd76" CreationDate="2016-05-11T15:47:51.883" UserId="967" Text="|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6963" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1639" RevisionGUID="658f3ded-a3a3-4420-9f22-32e240d838b3" CreationDate="2016-05-11T22:02:07.537" UserId="967" Comment="added 113 characters in body; edited tags" Text="In 2 of the games I play, there is &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- In Drive Ahead, a mini-boss is Krampus on a mission for Christmas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- In Terraria, during the Frost Moon, Krampus spawns.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It obviously has some Christmas roots, as he is the opposite of Santa. There seems to be a folklorish origin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the origin of it?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6964" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1639" RevisionGUID="658f3ded-a3a3-4420-9f22-32e240d838b3" CreationDate="2016-05-11T22:02:07.537" UserId="967" Comment="added 113 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6966" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1641" RevisionGUID="547677cd-4053-41e3-932f-3db3f0b6a2f6" CreationDate="2016-05-12T03:40:25.820" UserId="1553" Text="Krampus is from Austro-Bavarian alpine folklore and has his origins in germanic paganism.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you want to read more about him :http://www.iga.stir.ac.uk/showblog.php?id=186 " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6967" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1642" RevisionGUID="9918a2a8-3a40-4971-b24e-53df410e64a6" CreationDate="2016-05-12T04:05:12.853" UserId="1241" Text="From [the origins of Krampus, Europe's evil twist on Santa:][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Krampus himself historically comes around the night of December 5, tagging along with St. Nicholas. He visits houses all night with his saintly pal. While St. Nick is on hand to put candy in the shoes of good kids and birch twigs in the shoes of the bad, Krampus' particular specialty is punishing naughty children. Legend has it that throughout the Christmas season, misbehaved kids are beaten with birch branches or can disappear, stuffed into Krampus' sack and hauled off to his lair to be tortured or eaten.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Krampus in reality has nothing to do with Christmas in its' origins.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Krampus' roots have nothing to do with Christmas. Instead, they date back to pre-Germanic paganism in the region. His name originates with the German krampen, which means &quot;claw,&quot; and tradition has it that he is the son of the Norse god of the underworld, Hel. During the 12th century, the Catholic Church attempted to banish Krampus celebrations because of his resemblance to the devil. More eradication attempts followed in 1934 at the hands of Austria's conservative Christian Social Party. But none of it held, and Krampus emerged as a much-feared and beloved holiday force.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/krampus-could-come-you-holiday-season-180957438/?no-ist" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6968" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1641" RevisionGUID="1d0d62dd-7108-4164-bb0c-6371ceb0b4be" CreationDate="2016-05-12T18:23:47.270" UserId="1553" Comment="Put some quotes. Hope this is better!" Text="Krampus is from Austro-Bavarian alpine folklore and has his origins in germanic paganism.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Krampus existed in Bavaria earlier than the 17th Century, dating back to the times of a Germanic Paganism. When Bavaria and its neighbours became Christian countries, an attempt was made to rid the land of Krampus. During the Inquisition in the 12th Century, the Catholic Church tried to eradicate the celebration of Krampus because of his devilish appearance.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So he's definitely pre-12th century but seems to have been popularized as we know him today in the 17th century.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;In 17th Century Alpine legends, he travels with St Nicholas to dole out punishments to naughty children with a rod of birch. The particularly naughty children are kidnapped and taken away to his lair. Some variation of the myth say this is where he devours them, though most leave the demise of the children up to interpretation.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From: http://www.iga.stir.ac.uk/showblog.php?id=186 " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6969" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1550" RevisionGUID="ba5858ca-68b2-4b64-a3da-4a8636518a3d" CreationDate="2016-05-12T21:42:27.623" UserId="967" Comment="mainly fixed up an oxford comma, stopped some confusion." Text="From what I've gathered fauns and satyrs are pretty much the same thing; they're all male, hircine from the waist down. They like wine, women, and song. They walk around naked all the time and have an affinity for playing woodwind instruments. They all follow Dionysus and Bacchus around.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are fauns and satyrs actually this much alike or are the differences actually a lot bigger than that?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6970" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1604" RevisionGUID="396b9a90-4ea2-4424-bed7-75a33b7893b3" CreationDate="2016-05-12T21:45:42.500" UserId="967" Comment="getting it correct" Text="First of all, Atlantis was an island - [island of the Far West][1]. And the gods were not particularly active in regards to the island.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would say that Atlantis is absent from mythology, because the first mention that we know of comes from Plato and is used as a vehicle to expand on his political views.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is in Plato's Timaeus where we are given the location of Atlantis: beyond the the pillars of Heracles (which is today's Gibraltar).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As asked, here is the English quotation - I just do not have access to the Greek original:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For it is related in our records how once upon a time your State&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stayed the course of a mighty host, which, starting from a distant&#xD;&#xA;&gt; point in the Atlantic ocean, was insolently advancing to attack the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whole of Europe, and Asia to boot. For the ocean there was at that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; time navigable; for in front of the mouth which you Greeks call, as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; you say, 'the pillars of Heracles',' there lay an island which was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; larger than Libya and Asia together; and it was possible for the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; travelers of that time to cross from it to the other islands, and from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the islands to the whole of the continent over against them which&#xD;&#xA;&gt; encompasses that veritable ocean. For all that we have here, lying&#xD;&#xA;&gt; within the mouth of which we speak, is evidently a haven having a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; narrow entrance; but that yonder is a real ocean, and the land&#xD;&#xA;&gt; surrounding it may most rightly be called, in the fullest and truest&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sense, a continent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Phylos/Atlantes.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6971" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4" RevisionGUID="17c915f2-eb4f-4fff-86d0-dc11ce952eaa" CreationDate="2016-05-12T22:02:42.227" UserId="967" Comment="unneeded stuff" Text="According to [Wikipedia][1], &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;the only general mythographical handbook to survive from Greek antiquity was the Library of Pseudo-Apollodorus.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also good to note, the work is incomplete. There are three (known) books fallling under this umbrella. A portion of the third volume has been lost. [This site][2] shows the chapters by text ending at Thesus, similar to the Wikipedia posting. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The book is a compilation, taking pieces from ancient Greek epics and plays. This excerpt lists some of the genealogy of the titans:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;[1.1.3] And again he begat children by Earth, to wit, the Titans as they are named: Ocean, Coeus, Hyperion, Crius, Iapetus, and, youngest of all, Cronus; also daughters, the Titanides as they are called: Tethys, Rhea, Themis, Mnemosyne, Phoebe, Dione, Thia.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus1.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6973" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1004" RevisionGUID="7ff06dfd-5846-48de-9348-8d2990db940c" CreationDate="2016-05-12T22:35:04.283" UserId="967" Comment="transcript" Text="*Pegasus and the Hydra* by Odilon Redon&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Pegasus and the Hydra][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/UmAyB.jpg&#xD;&#xA;It seems to be a winged horse (Pegausus) fighting a many-headed figure.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have not been able to locate an established and credible myth behind Pegasus fighting the Hydra. Is there one, or did this originate in the mind of Odilon Redon?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6974" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1638" RevisionGUID="4e45bd12-e67d-46c2-afb6-8328cf01b79c" CreationDate="2016-05-12T22:54:12.650" UserId="1317" Comment="Added @T.E.D. 's suggestion of scales" Text="Since it has hooves (not paws), scales,  and horns, it is almost certainly a [qilin][1] or &quot;Chinese unicorn&quot;. I don't know why it is standing on four turtles, except that the turtle and qilin were two of the [sishou][2] or &quot;four divine creatures&quot;, along with the phoenix and dragon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They could be guarding dragon and phoenix eggs (the red spheres are different sizes) but this is just a guess.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qilin&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[2]:http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/ssu-ling.shtml" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6977" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1643" RevisionGUID="790168bc-8bd7-4084-9e6e-a8e6960fe3f3" CreationDate="2016-05-13T14:13:24.150" UserId="1568" Text="I'm doing an important project on Mars&#xD;&#xA;Where did Mars live?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6978" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1643" RevisionGUID="790168bc-8bd7-4084-9e6e-a8e6960fe3f3" CreationDate="2016-05-13T14:13:24.150" UserId="1568" Text="Where did Mars live ( what part of Rome)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6979" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1643" RevisionGUID="790168bc-8bd7-4084-9e6e-a8e6960fe3f3" CreationDate="2016-05-13T14:13:24.150" UserId="1568" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6980" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1643" RevisionGUID="255469bd-f993-4929-a37b-e80caef7a2c9" CreationDate="2016-05-13T15:43:47.997" UserId="967" Comment="added 3 characters in body; edited tags" Text="I'm doing an important project on Mars.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where did Mars live?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6981" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1643" RevisionGUID="255469bd-f993-4929-a37b-e80caef7a2c9" CreationDate="2016-05-13T15:43:47.997" UserId="967" Comment="added 3 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6982" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1643" RevisionGUID="255469bd-f993-4929-a37b-e80caef7a2c9" CreationDate="2016-05-13T15:43:47.997" UserId="967" Comment="added 3 characters in body; edited tags" Text="Where did Mars live (what part of Rome)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6983" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1262" RevisionGUID="967da89d-0db6-4d2f-a632-fe6915e5d9ce" CreationDate="2016-05-13T21:46:29.293" UserId="967" Comment="Title changed to question" Text="How does one search for patterns/motifs in folklore or mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6984" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="853" RevisionGUID="0b068a8f-ea5a-4139-b596-81d11e2c49dc" CreationDate="2016-05-13T21:47:24.847" UserId="967" Comment="deleted 29 characters in body" Text="Are there any other gods that permanently lost an eye, other than Odin?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I can't find any other gods that lost an eye other than Horus, which wasn't even permanent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Looked here already:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Disabled Deities](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DisabledDeity)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Eyepatch of Power](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EyepatchOfPower)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[EyeScream - Mythology](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/EyeScream/Mythology)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6985" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="962" RevisionGUID="5236c58e-2bed-4f9c-b93c-b49430d17cb4" CreationDate="2016-05-13T21:49:00.510" UserId="967" Comment="fixed up some problems" Text="Is Kali, the dancing goddess, with skull necklaces, and blood licking tongue, unique? Specifically the mix of joyous rapture, death embrace, yet mothering and sexual. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eros and Thanatos, at once a maiden, a mother and a crone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there other divinities who mix warm embrace with destruction, love with death, sex with protection?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6986" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="257" RevisionGUID="e38bb7bb-9da1-4b5e-904c-e458808c75f4" CreationDate="2016-05-13T21:52:29.670" UserId="967" Comment="fixed a link" Text="In many religions, such as the Greeks, the number 12 is considered holy and sacred for many generations. There are 12 main gods in Greek mythology, Odin had 12 sons in Norse mythology, 12 disicples of Christ in Christinaity, and 12 Imams in the Islam religion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So why exactly is the number 12 considered sacred and holy by many religions?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: This [answer][1] by naltipar has inspired my question. He has said this, which deems my question unanswered as of now:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I have found no reference (and I believe there isn't any) as to **why** it is deemed a special number, apart from the fact that it had many mathematical properties, such as being the first number with six divisors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;   [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/148/967" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6987" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="622" RevisionGUID="c4db92e8-4f33-439a-b0d8-afafdc75eff4" CreationDate="2016-05-13T21:54:09.070" UserId="967" Comment="umimportant ... " Text="&lt;h3&gt;Similar question&lt;/h3&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[Why is 12 such a holy number?][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/257/why-is-12-such-a-holy-number/273#273&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;7 is one of the most important number in history. It would be hard to ignore :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The seven days of the week&#xD;&#xA; - The seven deadly sins&#xD;&#xA; - The lucky 7&#xD;&#xA; - The seven wise men of Greece&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is 7 such an important number? What are the other societies it had an important place in?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6988" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="520" RevisionGUID="f7eff904-75ff-4eff-9b5c-93d6d9516dc0" CreationDate="2016-05-13T21:54:57.527" UserId="967" Comment="edited title" Text="Is there a deeper meaning to Utgard-Loki, Loki, and Logi?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6989" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="506" RevisionGUID="342dfd3d-b236-4e44-85dd-300888433610" CreationDate="2016-05-13T21:56:55.707" UserId="967" Comment="deleted 91 characters in body" Text="In [this answer](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/356/18), I saw this in a quote-in-a-quote:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; during the Third Age [equivalent to the Age in which the Popol Vuh places the invention of shooting out such magical darts], the sun stood still for one full day without moving from its place; - [*Esotericism of the Popol Vuh*: Chapter 10](http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/popolvuh/pv-10.htm)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This caught my eye because the sun stands still in [Joshua 10](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua+10&amp;version=NIV) in the Bible as well, so I went looking for this event in the Popol Vuh itself. However, I had difficulty finding it and was recently enlightened to the fact that, according to Hamlet's comment below, this does not appear in the Popol Vuh.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where then does it appear? What Native American myth has the sun stand still for a full day?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6990" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1644" RevisionGUID="bc5d6762-6116-4139-8c87-caa04d46300e" CreationDate="2016-05-13T22:30:49.527" UserId="292" Text="The first cult centre for Mars in Rome was the Altar of Mars on the [Campus Martius][1], or Field of Mars. The other main temple of Mars lay outside the city boundary, built to [fufill a vow][2] made during the war against the Gauls. &#xD;&#xA;[This link][3] lists the main Roman temples of Mars.  &#xD;&#xA;Hope this helps.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Places/Europe/Italy/Lazio/Roma/Rome/_Texts/PLATOP*/Campus_Martius.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.loebclassics.com/view/livy-history_rome_6/1924/pb_LCL172.213.xml&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Places/Europe/Italy/Lazio/Roma/Rome/_Texts/PLATOP*/Aedes_Martis.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6991" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1564" RevisionGUID="57716527-a463-4ddd-8945-f1af8a7695b8" CreationDate="2016-05-14T02:58:22.740" UserId="967" Comment="added 15 characters in body" Text="You could drink from the holy grail. It is extremely hard to find in King Arthur legend and you needed to have a quest for it. Most of the nights that quested to find it died. It's not that easy but relatively simple." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6994" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1646" RevisionGUID="34e6f4d2-d51a-43cd-a22d-5f8d5db43c60" CreationDate="2016-05-14T16:58:54.920" UserId="967" Text="They lived on [Mount Olympus][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From answer linked.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **[205]** *O magne **Olympi rector** et mundi arbiter,*  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Jam statue tandem gravibus aerumnis modum*&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [O mighty ruler of **Olympus**, judge of all the world,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; set now at length a limit to our crushing cares, an end to our disasters.](http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaHerculesFurens.html)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That was from a play, in which it states that Olympus is where all of the Roman gods lived.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So Mars lived on Mount Olympus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/742/967" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6995" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1647" RevisionGUID="f49e5e7d-79cb-409e-af47-e2de9f002893" CreationDate="2016-05-14T22:09:38.880" UserId="967" Text="Snow White's story (unabridged):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;And now the king’s son had it carried away by his servants on their shoulders. And it happened that they stumbled over a tree-stump, and with the shock the poisonous piece of apple which snow-white had bitten off came out of her throat. And before long she opened her eyes, lifted up the lid of the coffin, sat up, and was once more alive. Oh, heavens, where am I, she cried. The king’s son, full of joy, said, you are with me. And told her what had happened, and said, I love you more than everything in the world, come with me to my father’s palace, you shall be my wife.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did Grimm get that from older folklore? If so, what was the earliest version of a &quot;Only true love can awake&quot; type of story?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6996" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1647" RevisionGUID="f49e5e7d-79cb-409e-af47-e2de9f002893" CreationDate="2016-05-14T22:09:38.880" UserId="967" Text="What was the first example of a &quot;Only true love can awake&quot; in folklore?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6997" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1647" RevisionGUID="f49e5e7d-79cb-409e-af47-e2de9f002893" CreationDate="2016-05-14T22:09:38.880" UserId="967" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6998" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1648" RevisionGUID="81d27050-722b-4bc7-a1ab-f720dc1b33e2" CreationDate="2016-05-15T03:29:59.847" UserId="1241" Text="Stories about mermaids have been around since [time immemorial][1]. I would like to know what is the earliest confirmed evidence about the origins of the mythological creature called mermaids?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_immemorial" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="6999" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1648" RevisionGUID="81d27050-722b-4bc7-a1ab-f720dc1b33e2" CreationDate="2016-05-15T03:29:59.847" UserId="1241" Text="What is the earliest known myth about mermaids?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7000" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1648" RevisionGUID="81d27050-722b-4bc7-a1ab-f720dc1b33e2" CreationDate="2016-05-15T03:29:59.847" UserId="1241" Text="|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7004" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1398" RevisionGUID="ff52bf97-f528-4c4c-820d-e694be485530" CreationDate="2016-05-16T22:39:52.497" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="7005" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1649" RevisionGUID="25b66567-9e7c-4861-a286-0d2f1fad16a2" CreationDate="2016-05-17T02:34:51.577" UserId="758" Text="Someone was telling me about deicide and I wondered, because gods are so powerful by definition, which of them are killed or from what culture are mortal gods prevalent. The only example I could think of other than Jesus was Norse gods being killed at Ragnarok and beforehand. Are there other mythologies in which gods can be killed finally? I do not think I would count the death of Ouranos or Kronos as real deaths, because they are said to still be alive but incapacitated. Gods in general, using Greek gods as an example, can be hurt but not killed, like Hephaestus and Prometheus. Are there any gods or cultures that are more mortal?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7006" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1649" RevisionGUID="25b66567-9e7c-4861-a286-0d2f1fad16a2" CreationDate="2016-05-17T02:34:51.577" UserId="758" Text="How rare is a dead god?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7007" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1649" RevisionGUID="25b66567-9e7c-4861-a286-0d2f1fad16a2" CreationDate="2016-05-17T02:34:51.577" UserId="758" Text="|gods|immortality|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7016" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1652" RevisionGUID="53b48aea-9ad7-4df9-9ede-e34513082cbb" CreationDate="2016-05-19T04:45:44.213" UserId="810" Text="Odin was known for having two ravens with him, Huginn and Muninn.  They flew all of Midgard and collected stories that they told to Odin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since they are associated with 'thought' and 'memory,' I wonder if this was characterized in any way by them?  Did either have tendencies or other facets of their nature?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7017" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1652" RevisionGUID="53b48aea-9ad7-4df9-9ede-e34513082cbb" CreationDate="2016-05-19T04:45:44.213" UserId="810" Text="Did Huginn and Muninn have personalities?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7018" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1652" RevisionGUID="53b48aea-9ad7-4df9-9ede-e34513082cbb" CreationDate="2016-05-19T04:45:44.213" UserId="810" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7019" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="760" RevisionGUID="ef79b4e8-bf5e-40c0-816e-6a94a6b6f5b7" CreationDate="2016-05-19T14:01:50.263" UserId="810" Comment="removed duplicate quote" Text="#The meaning of those two ravens is not 100% answered, yet. One possible explanation is as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the Norse shamanic tradition, Odin's ravens represent the powers of necromancy, clairvoyance and telepathy, and they were guides for the dead. This poem expresses the shaman's fear of his loss of magical powers. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt; **The Well of Remembrance by Ralph Metzner, Shambala, Boston, 1994**&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, it is implied the name of one of the ravens is mistranslated:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  **it’s often claimed that Munin’s name means “Memory,” but for this to be so, it would have to be derived from minni**, “memory,” **rather than munr, “desire.”** The latter, however, is by far the more parsimonious derivation; if the former were the case, we should expect Munin’s Old Norse name to have been something like “Minninn” rather than “Muninn.” Moreover, **the above verse from the Grímnismál makes much more sense if Munin’s name means “Desire” rather than “Memory”**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Norse Mythology for Smart People][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another possible explanation is the following, which is similar to first one:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Anthony Winterbourne** connects Huginn and Muninn to the Norse concepts **of the fylgja—a concept with three characteristics; shape-shifting abilities, good fortune, and the guardian spirit—and the hamingja—the ghostly double of a person that may appear in the form of an animal.** Winterbourne states that “**The shaman’s journey through the different parts of the cosmos is symbolized by the hamingja concept of the shape-shifting soul, and gains another symbolic dimension for the Norse soul in the account of Oðin’s ravens, Huginn and Muninn.”** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt; [My Travels with Huggin and Munnin][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, [Rudolf Simek][3] has an entirely different point to make, saying that the names of the ravens were only used in later times:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Rudolf Simek is critical of the approach**, stating that **&quot;attempts have been made to interpret Odin's ravens as a personification of the god's intellectual powers, but this can only be assumed from the names Huginn and Muninn themselves which were unlikely to have been invented much before the 9th or 10th centuries&quot;** yet that the two ravens, as Odin's companions, appear to derive from much earlier times. **Instead, Simek connects Huginn and Muninn with wider raven symbolism in the Germanic world, including the Raven Banner (described in English chronicles and Scandinavian sagas), a banner which was woven in a method that allowed it, when fluttering in the wind, to appear as if the raven depicted upon it was beating its wings.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/others/hugin-and-munin/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://ljmoore.wordpress.com/2013/03/16/my-travels-with-huginn-and-muninn/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Simek&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huginn_and_Muninn#Theories" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7020" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="760" RevisionGUID="ef79b4e8-bf5e-40c0-816e-6a94a6b6f5b7" CreationDate="2016-05-19T14:01:50.263" Comment="Proposed by 810 approved by 111, 967 edit id of 319" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7021" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1653" RevisionGUID="f1991699-8326-412c-9e98-93169f39f747" CreationDate="2016-05-19T21:01:40.050" UserId="42" Text="Yes, the Grimm brothers tale is based on earlier works and folklore.  As a rule, the Grimm brothers fairy tales were all existing folk tales.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Sleeping Beauty story derives directly from Charles Perrault's [&quot;Sleeping Beauty&quot;](http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/perrault01.html) (La Belle au bois dormant), and published in his collection &quot;Histoires ou contes du temps passé&quot;.  The first half of it is very much the familiar (ie. Disney ± 1 dragon) narrative.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The older stories *it* draws from mostly somewhat miss the true love's kiss detail, unfortunately.  Instead, a splinter holds the woman asleep, a our noble hero *fails* to wake her, proceeds to have sex with her, and nine month later she (still asleep) gives birth, and her newborn sucks the splinter from her finger, causing her to awaken.  A well known version of this is [&quot;Sun, Moon, and Talia&quot;](http://uncoy.com/2006/05/sleeping_beauty_1.html) by Giambattista Basile, and perhaps the earliest is “Histoire de Troïlus et de Zellandine&quot; from &quot;Perceforest&quot; (which I couldn't find a good source of online).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is some possibility that sleeping beauty could draw some inspiration from the story of Brynhildr in the Völsunga saga (Chapter 20), who Odin punishes by putting to sleep with a sleep-thorn, until she is saved by one is does not &quot;know the name of fear&quot; (Sigurðr, who she later marries):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Odin, in vengeance for that deed, stuck the sleep-thorn into me, and said that I should never again have the victory, but should be given away in marriage; but there against I vowed a vow, that never would I wed one who knew the name of fear.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;The Story of the Volsungs, trans. William Morris and Eirikr Magnusson, [Chapter XX](http://sacred-texts.com/neu/vlsng/vlsng22.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7022" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1653" RevisionGUID="b308706e-4d68-406e-9568-54321a34be80" CreationDate="2016-05-19T21:09:29.133" UserId="42" Comment="added 100 characters in body" Text="Yes, the Grimm brothers tale is based on earlier works and folklore.  As a rule, the Grimm brothers fairy tales were all existing folk tales.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Sleeping Beauty (which I'm focusing on instead of Snow White, since it contains the same key element, and it's easier) story derives directly from Charles Perrault's [&quot;Sleeping Beauty&quot;](http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/perrault01.html) (La Belle au bois dormant), and published in his collection &quot;Histoires ou contes du temps passé&quot;.  The first half of it is very much the familiar (ie. Disney ± 1 dragon) narrative.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The older stories *it* draws from mostly somewhat miss the true love's kiss detail, unfortunately.  Instead, a splinter holds the woman asleep, a our noble hero *fails* to wake her, proceeds to have sex with her, and nine month later she (still asleep) gives birth, and her newborn sucks the splinter from her finger, causing her to awaken.  A well known version of this is [&quot;Sun, Moon, and Talia&quot;](http://uncoy.com/2006/05/sleeping_beauty_1.html) by Giambattista Basile, and perhaps the earliest is “Histoire de Troïlus et de Zellandine&quot; from &quot;Perceforest&quot; (which I couldn't find a good source of online).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There some possibility that sleeping beauty could draw some inspiration from the story of Brynhildr in the Völsunga saga (Chapter 20), who Odin punishes by putting to sleep with a sleep-thorn, until she is saved by one is does not &quot;know the name of fear&quot; (Sigurðr, who she later marries):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Odin, in vengeance for that deed, stuck the sleep-thorn into me, and said that I should never again have the victory, but should be given away in marriage; but there against I vowed a vow, that never would I wed one who knew the name of fear.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;The Story of the Volsungs, trans. William Morris and Eirikr Magnusson, [Chapter XX](http://sacred-texts.com/neu/vlsng/vlsng22.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7023" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1653" RevisionGUID="44dbe064-f4e3-474b-8040-af28e3be54ff" CreationDate="2016-05-19T21:19:01.000" UserId="42" Comment="added 51 characters in body" Text="Yes, the Grimm brothers tale is based on earlier works and folklore.  As a rule, the Grimm brothers fairy tales were all existing folk tales.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Sleeping Beauty (which I'm focusing on instead of Snow White, since it contains the same key element, and it's easier) story derives directly from Charles Perrault's [&quot;Sleeping Beauty&quot;](http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/perrault01.html) (La Belle au bois dormant), and published in his collection &quot;Histoires ou contes du temps passé&quot;.  The first half of it is very much the familiar (ie. Disney ± 1 dragon) narrative.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The older stories *it* draws from mostly somewhat miss the true love's kiss detail, unfortunately.  Instead, a splinter holds the woman asleep, a our noble hero *fails* to wake her, proceeds to have sex with her, and nine month later she (still asleep) gives birth, and her newborn sucks the splinter from her finger, causing her to awaken.  A well known version of this is [&quot;Sun, Moon, and Talia&quot;](http://uncoy.com/2006/05/sleeping_beauty_1.html) by Giambattista Basile, and perhaps the earliest is “Histoire de Troïlus et de Zellandine&quot; from &quot;Perceforest&quot; (which I couldn't find a good source of online).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There some possibility that sleeping beauty could draw some inspiration from the story of Brynhildr in the Völsunga saga ([Chapter 20]((http://sacred-texts.com/neu/vlsng/vlsng22.htm))), who Odin punishes by putting to sleep with a sleep-thorn, until she is saved by one is does not &quot;know the name of fear&quot; (Sigurðr, who she later marries):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Odin, in vengeance for that deed, stuck the sleep-thorn into me, and said that I should never again have the victory, but should be given away in marriage; but there against I vowed a vow, that never would I wed one who knew the name of fear.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;The Story of the Volsungs, trans. William Morris and Eirikr Magnusson, [Chapter XX](http://sacred-texts.com/neu/vlsng/vlsng22.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7024" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1653" RevisionGUID="a74e7855-898d-45a3-81b7-32f74d0f68cc" CreationDate="2016-05-19T23:23:27.643" UserId="42" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="Yes, the Grimm brothers tale is based on earlier works and folklore.  As a rule, the Grimm brothers fairy tales were all existing folk tales.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Sleeping Beauty (which I'm focusing on instead of Snow White, since it contains the same key element, and it's easier) story derives directly from Charles Perrault's [&quot;Sleeping Beauty&quot;](http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/perrault01.html) (La Belle au bois dormant), and published in his collection &quot;Histoires ou contes du temps passé&quot;.  The first half of it is very much the familiar (ie. Disney ± 1 dragon) narrative.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The older stories *it* draws from mostly somewhat miss the true love's kiss detail, unfortunately.  Instead, a splinter holds the woman asleep, a our noble hero *fails* to wake her, proceeds to have sex with her, and nine month later she (still asleep) gives birth, and her newborn sucks the splinter from her finger, causing her to awaken.  A well known version of this is [&quot;Sun, Moon, and Talia&quot;](http://uncoy.com/2006/05/sleeping_beauty_1.html) by Giambattista Basile, and perhaps the earliest is “Histoire de Troïlus et de Zellandine&quot; from &quot;Perceforest&quot; (which I couldn't find a good source of online).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There some possibility that sleeping beauty could draw some inspiration from the story of Brynhildr in the Völsunga saga ([Chapter 20]((http://sacred-texts.com/neu/vlsng/vlsng22.htm))), who Odin punishes by putting to sleep with a sleep-thorn, until she is saved by one who does not &quot;know the name of fear&quot; (Sigurðr, who she later marries):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Odin, in vengeance for that deed, stuck the sleep-thorn into me, and said that I should never again have the victory, but should be given away in marriage; but there against I vowed a vow, that never would I wed one who knew the name of fear.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;The Story of the Volsungs, trans. William Morris and Eirikr Magnusson, [Chapter XX](http://sacred-texts.com/neu/vlsng/vlsng22.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7025" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1654" RevisionGUID="cfa95fc5-e987-420a-b6f7-429353a98650" CreationDate="2016-05-20T11:25:16.353" UserId="742" Text="According to what I understand, early astrology recognized seven astral forces: Sun, Moon, Mars, Venus, Mercury, Jupiter, and Saturn. When people later discovered the planets Neptune and Uranus, how did this affect astrology and how they tied the astral forces to the visible planets?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7026" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1654" RevisionGUID="cfa95fc5-e987-420a-b6f7-429353a98650" CreationDate="2016-05-20T11:25:16.353" UserId="742" Text="How did the discoveries of the planets Neptune and Uranus affect astrology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7027" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1654" RevisionGUID="cfa95fc5-e987-420a-b6f7-429353a98650" CreationDate="2016-05-20T11:25:16.353" UserId="742" Text="|astrology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7028" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1655" RevisionGUID="95ba9ad7-ad74-48c8-ad74-ce81d3da67a6" CreationDate="2016-05-20T18:15:49.723" UserId="53" Text="Astrology is all about the perspective of the planets (which includes the Sun and Moon) as seen from Earth.  It has always been considered that the more distant a planet, the less significant its influence.  The outer planets become more subtle and affect longer periods of time.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This subtlety meant that earlier astrological pronouncements using only the visible planets were not negated by the discoveries.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Uranus was discovered in 1781 it was seen to have a more elliptical orbit than the known planets and, of course, a longer orbital period.  Astrologers sought to find a meaning for it and essentially extrapolated from the properties assigned to the known planets.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Uranus became the planet of unpredictability.  Afflicted aspects to other planets were seen to disrupt the other planet's affect in unpredictable ways.  This could perhaps, to modern eyes, be seen as bit of a cop out - we don't know what it does, let's make it unpredictable.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Uranus was then seen as the governor of old age.  Its orbit of 84 years means that not many people see its Return (the Astrological return of a planet to the place it occupied at your birth).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the natal chart, Uranus became known for discoveries, advancement, wisdom and progress.  All these things were taking place at the time of the planet's discovery.  The Industrial Revolution was taking place.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Neptune was discovered in 1846 and has an orbit of 165 years.  Astrologers found it vague and assigned it power over vague areas.  Neptune became the planet of introversion, addiction and mysticism.  It was associated with artists - its strange properties influencing creativity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Again, perhaps these were common thoughts in the psyche of the time.  For both new planets they seemed to be associated with things that were happening in society at the time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The effect of both these planets when in aspect with the better known planets was described according to normal astrological practice.  Afflicted or beneficial aspects would be calculated to disrupt or enhance planetary influence just as, say, a Moon Square Mars would be seen to influence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a separate matter, Pluto is the planet of regeneration and renaissance.  I haven't seen any astrological pronouncement on its astronomical demotion to dwarf planet." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7030" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1656" RevisionGUID="0136ccb8-b163-4043-a517-6826ab636aee" CreationDate="2016-05-20T20:47:42.123" UserId="691" Text="tl;dr: Not rare at all.&#xD;&#xA;## Complications ##&#xD;&#xA;The answer to this is fairly soft, as it will depend considerably on what you consider a 'god' and what constitutes 'dying' - neither of which are particularly straightforward.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First of all, what is a god?  This is not trivial; in some circles the idea of a god dying is nonsense, because the definition of a god includes being immortal. In other groups, gods are typically mortal and the idea of one being immortal sounds amazing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Second (and maybe more interesting) is what counts as 'dying'? Many deities have been killed, only to be resurrected. Certainly that makes them mortal, but it doesn't make them 'dead'. If the body is destroyed, but their consciousness remains (for example, you mention Jesus, who now resides in the Kingdom of Heaven) does that count?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Dying God Mythology ##&#xD;&#xA; In *The Golden Bough*, anthropologist James Frazer analyzed (among many other things) myths about [dying gods][1].  Below is a quick list from the first few pages alone:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. An Inuit deity who can be killed by wind, or touching a dog.&#xD;&#xA; 2. An unnamed native American creator-deity who died long ago.&#xD;&#xA; 3. A Filipino creator deity, also deceased at the time Europeans arrived.&#xD;&#xA; 4. Heitsi-Eibib, patron of hunters in the San religion. His funeral stones can apparently be found throughout southern Africa.&#xD;&#xA; 5. Zeus's grave was allegedly at Crete, although I am not sure what myth surrounds his death.&#xD;&#xA; 6. Dionysus was buried at Delphi.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And that list is all from page 3.  Footnotes contain his references, should you want to know more about any of those myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Many (maybe even *most*) mythologies contain stories about gods dying.  This is often done as part of a death-rebirth story (*[The Dying God or Goddess][2]* in &quot;The Mythology of Native North America covers this well)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## A Note About Mythology ##&#xD;&#xA;Your question references several things - Ragnorak, the death of Kronos, etc. - as if they were singular stories. It's important to remember that with mythology, stories change over time and across cultures.  Expect a variety of interpretations of any given story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://archive.org/stream/goldenboughstudy04fraz#page/n17/mode/2up&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.com/books?id=JegHPHwma04C&amp;pg=PA60&amp;lpg=PA60&amp;dq=Native%20american%20dying%20god&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=_FbM1JCA3Y&amp;sig=X5eRK_gZQI-2Kodw2Hd3sKmtM8s&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjQ7Ye3v-nMAhWh6IMKHYwZAZwQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&amp;q=Native%20american%20dying%20god&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7034" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="998" RevisionGUID="51b812c3-db1f-499a-82bc-755f5df504e7" CreationDate="2016-05-21T03:31:59.453" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="cleaned up question" Text="I have a condensed copy of James Frazer's *[The Golden Bough][1]* lying on the floor of my room (the 1922 edition), and I'm trying to decide if I should read it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is reading this 800+ page &quot;condensed&quot; book worth my time? Is it relevant in today's discussions? And finally, it would be great if I could get a paragraph summery of what the book accomplishes/contributes to the study of religion/myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Bough" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7035" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="998" RevisionGUID="51b812c3-db1f-499a-82bc-755f5df504e7" CreationDate="2016-05-21T03:31:59.453" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="cleaned up question" Text="|untagged|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7041" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1660" RevisionGUID="543f0ece-9b33-49fb-a715-b00c254d910d" CreationDate="2016-05-21T19:55:55.333" UserId="1562" Text="I want to say &quot;the sirenes&quot; who would call sailors to their shore only to cause their ships to be wrecked." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7044" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1662" RevisionGUID="a33adf24-83b4-4e60-b118-eb25f101b7c0" CreationDate="2016-05-22T09:11:01.080" UserId="1594" Text="The hydra is classically described as growing two heads back for every one cut down. Mjolnir, theoretically, became exponentially heavier to the unworthy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What other Gods, creatures or equipment have powers that are tied to doubling or exponential characteristics?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7045" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1662" RevisionGUID="a33adf24-83b4-4e60-b118-eb25f101b7c0" CreationDate="2016-05-22T09:11:01.080" UserId="1594" Text="Are there any mythologic Gods, creatures or equipment that double in power?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7046" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1662" RevisionGUID="a33adf24-83b4-4e60-b118-eb25f101b7c0" CreationDate="2016-05-22T09:11:01.080" UserId="1594" Text="|mjolnir|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7050" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1664" RevisionGUID="5efb9be8-7ddc-495f-98c1-91ce9392ee09" CreationDate="2016-05-23T00:55:28.920" UserId="1562" Text="Is lesson of flying too close to the Sun and not close enough to the Water that we should not fly at all?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7051" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1664" RevisionGUID="5efb9be8-7ddc-495f-98c1-91ce9392ee09" CreationDate="2016-05-23T00:55:28.920" UserId="1562" Text="Icarus Man or Myth" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7052" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1664" RevisionGUID="5efb9be8-7ddc-495f-98c1-91ce9392ee09" CreationDate="2016-05-23T00:55:28.920" UserId="1562" Text="|greek|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7053" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1662" RevisionGUID="f8998a0f-e60c-407f-a9fa-b9c11bce6b0a" CreationDate="2016-05-23T00:59:23.567" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|gods|god-items|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7054" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1662" RevisionGUID="9c484fa6-fca0-468b-b0a5-a5c5890b1e4a" CreationDate="2016-05-23T03:40:47.767" UserId="1594" Comment="edited title" Text="Are there any mythologic Gods, creatures or equipment that have &quot;exponential&quot; characteristics?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7055" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1665" RevisionGUID="f3876b36-3269-4f25-9fb8-b81995451cea" CreationDate="2016-05-23T05:04:50.250" UserId="1595" Text="The Gods of Egypt use weapons that they fashion themselves. The had spears and swords they use against Apep. They use wands or was and amulets, fill them with magic or inscribe them with words of power for specific purposes. There greatest weapon was the magic of words and transformation/shapeshifting of objects or themselves." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7056" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="1643" RevisionGUID="7b73d372-1a62-47a5-8b43-3d269091b8a4" CreationDate="2016-05-23T12:24:05.767" UserId="57" Comment="101" Text="{&quot;OriginalQuestionIds&quot;:[740],&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:42,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;femtoRgon&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:967,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;bleh&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Yannis&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="7057" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1664" RevisionGUID="565fa2ac-81a0-4125-8256-0cdf404763f4" CreationDate="2016-05-23T15:38:10.443" UserId="42" Comment="edited title" Text="What is the lesson of the Myth of Icarus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7058" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1666" RevisionGUID="d468ae4a-c351-44b0-92ae-80fe97e56f1d" CreationDate="2016-05-23T16:29:24.320" UserId="42" Text="I think we can probably rule out the story being warning against flight, being that no one was building aircraft at the time, or for quite some time thereafter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Icarus's fall is a warning about youthful carelessness, and shows the terrible consequences that can bring.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Diadorus Siculus tells two versions of the story, both of which emphasize the recklessness of Icarus causing his downfall:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But when Icarus was disembarking onto the island in a reckless manner, he fell into the sea and perished  &#xD;&#xA;...  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; As for Icarus, because of the ignorance of youth he made his flight to far aloft and fell into the sea when the wax which held the wings together was melted by the sun  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Diodorus Siculus, Library of History, 4.77.6 and 4.77.9](http://www.theoi.com/Text/DiodorusSiculus4D.html#29)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarly, Pausanias speaks of his clumsy navigation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The ship of Icarus is said to have overturned, as he was a clumsy helmsman. The drowned man was carried ashore by the current to the island  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Pausanias, Description of Greece 9.11.5](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Pausanias9A.html#7)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And Apollodorus refers to him as infatuated, and draws attention to his disregard for his father's instructions:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But the infatuated Icarus, disregarding his father's injunctions, soared ever higher, till, the glue melting, he fell into the sea called after him Icarian, and perished.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Apollodorus Library E.1.13](http://www.theoi.com/Text/ApollodorusE.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It would appear that, even 2000 years ago, [teenagers thought they were invincible](http://www.npr.org/2011/09/20/140637115/understanding-the-mysterious-teenage-brain)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7059" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1664" RevisionGUID="dc564ffd-269d-4a11-8df9-33d0bf88f4dd" CreationDate="2016-05-23T22:57:34.327" UserId="967" Comment="added myth" Text="Icarus, the son of Daedalus, had wings which allowed him to fly. But he was not to go near the Sun or too close to the water, or his wings would become undone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is the lesson of flying too close to the Sun and not close enough to the water that we should not fly at all? Or is it a lesson to listen to advice and not be reckless?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7060" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1664" RevisionGUID="dc564ffd-269d-4a11-8df9-33d0bf88f4dd" CreationDate="2016-05-23T22:57:34.327" UserId="967" Comment="added myth" Text="What is the lesson of the myth of Icarus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7061" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1664" RevisionGUID="55c6cfd1-95cf-49df-b2dd-34cad7606d3b" CreationDate="2016-05-23T23:38:19.693" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="deleted 70 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Icarus, the son of Daedalus, was given wings which allowed him to fly. He was told not to fly near the Sun or the water, as his wings would become undone. Of course, he flew too close to the sun, his wings melted, and he died.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What's the moral of this story?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7062" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1664" RevisionGUID="55c6cfd1-95cf-49df-b2dd-34cad7606d3b" CreationDate="2016-05-23T23:38:19.693" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="deleted 70 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="What is the moral of the myth of Icarus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7063" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1664" RevisionGUID="55c6cfd1-95cf-49df-b2dd-34cad7606d3b" CreationDate="2016-05-23T23:38:19.693" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="deleted 70 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7065" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1664" RevisionGUID="2f57018c-26c1-4293-9030-20cdcc0247ce" CreationDate="2016-05-23T23:42:52.500" UserId="1562" Comment="added 120 characters in body" Text="Icarus, the son of Daedalus who created the maze that held the Minotaur was given wings which allowed him to fly away from the Island of Crete. He was told not to fly too near the Sun nor too close to the water, as these wings were driven by the interaction of Sun and Water. He flew too close to the sun, his wings melted, and he fell to the Sea.&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What's the moral of this story?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7069" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1668" RevisionGUID="0a84ff3d-73b2-4687-b46f-5af9fed11e89" CreationDate="2016-05-25T14:03:46.157" UserId="151" Text="I want to give a wider interpretation of the myth: that youth will fly high ignoring advice and risks , is the first level.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; The second is that this youth is remembered over millenia and his name was given to a sea, so there is some recompense to the bad outcome of the risk.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The third level is that fortunately for humanity youth takes risks. Had the ,wings not melted, flight would have been discovered thousands of years ago:). &#xD;&#xA;The real moral is that forethought should accompany risk taking .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7070" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1669" RevisionGUID="a7d8d8a0-3777-469b-831e-9bbb5810ebc2" CreationDate="2016-05-25T22:35:50.240" UserId="1606" Text="I only know of a few that are seen as magical. However I'll do some research and come back to edit this answer when I find some more, but for now I'll list the ones I know. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Armour of Achilles: Made by *Hephaestus* and said to be completely impenetrable. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Helm of Darkness: Made by the Cyclops for the Lord of the Underworld *Hades*. It turns the wearer invisible and is said to bring out your darkest and deepest fears. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollo's Bow: It can cause health *or* famine and in some stories, death. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Hide of the Nemean Lion: A hide worn by Hercules, or Heracles, and was able to endure every weapon and was *unbreakable*. &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7071" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1670" RevisionGUID="766a61ad-b192-402c-a62c-6b40b89f3f91" CreationDate="2016-05-25T23:08:00.587" UserId="967" Text="So, only Hope remained in that box. And a whole bunch of bad stuff came out.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But, what *exactly* was in there? I'm looking for the greek proper names." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7072" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1670" RevisionGUID="766a61ad-b192-402c-a62c-6b40b89f3f91" CreationDate="2016-05-25T23:08:00.587" UserId="967" Text="What exactly was in Pandora's Box?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7073" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1670" RevisionGUID="766a61ad-b192-402c-a62c-6b40b89f3f91" CreationDate="2016-05-25T23:08:00.587" UserId="967" Text="|greek|pandora|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7074" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1583" RevisionGUID="2af37f87-a086-4d78-9d51-ee81b61ee50a" CreationDate="2016-05-26T00:18:04.030" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="7075" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1671" RevisionGUID="05124d9a-9990-465c-91b3-298035f7c795" CreationDate="2016-05-26T00:46:48.720" UserId="1317" Text="Not associated with any &quot;gods&quot; as such; there are a large number of [folktales][1] containing items with exponential growth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Aarne-Thompson classification system][2] groups many of these stories into category, AT 565. One of the best-known of these is ***[Why the Sea is Salt][3]***, where an out-of-control salt mill grinds out an endless amount of salt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The goings-on in ***[The Sorceror's Apprentice][4]*** certainly smacks of the Lernaean Hydra, but that one is more literary than folkloric.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And of course there is the matter of how darn fast that [beanstalk][5] grew...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folktale&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[2]:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aarne%E2%80%93Thompson_classification_systems&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[3]:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_the_Sea_is_Salt&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[4]:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorcerer%27s_Apprentice&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[5]:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_and_the_Beanstalk&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7076" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1671" RevisionGUID="5cf18fa7-912c-4432-9d16-14a0870b8826" CreationDate="2016-05-26T02:31:40.887" UserId="1317" Comment="Fix typo" Text="Not associated with any &quot;gods&quot; as such; there are a large number of [folktales][1] containing items with exponential growth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Aarne-Thompson classification system][2] groups many of these stories into category, AT 565. One of the best-known of these is ***[Why the Sea is Salt][3]***, where an out-of-control salt mill grinds out an endless amount of salt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The goings-on in ***[The Sorceror's Apprentice][4]*** certainly smack of the Lernaean Hydra, but that one is more literary than folkloric.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And of course there is the matter of how darn fast that [beanstalk][5] grew...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folktale&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[2]:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aarne%E2%80%93Thompson_classification_systems&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[3]:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_the_Sea_is_Salt&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[4]:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorcerer%27s_Apprentice&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[5]:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_and_the_Beanstalk&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7077" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1668" RevisionGUID="b07b26fb-745d-446c-be01-58b37f886367" CreationDate="2016-05-26T03:40:21.857" UserId="151" Comment="clarification" Text="I want to give a context interpretation of the myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That youth will fly high ignoring advice and takes risks , as the other answer says,  is the first level, &quot;listen to your elders&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; The long term result, (moral for the present day?)  is that this youth is remembered over millennia and his name was given to a sea, so there was some recompense to the bad outcome of the risk. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My main observation is that fortunately for humanity's youth, and people who remain young in mentality, they do take risks. Had Icarus not dared to fly higher than caution, there would have been no myth and no Icarian sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; Had the wings not melted,( 50/50 chance  of deterioration?) gliders would have been discovered thousands of years ago:). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The present  moral  should be : listen to your elders  precautionary instructions, and use  forethought before risk taking  . Suppressing risk according to the dictates of the elders would lead to a static society.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7078" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1672" RevisionGUID="9a8060c0-744f-4597-aca6-bfb899a4a980" CreationDate="2016-05-26T08:35:05.807" UserId="57" Text="Not entirely sure what exactly you are looking for, but &quot;a whole bunch of bad stuff&quot; is actually very close to how Hesiod describes the ills that escaped the jar (Works and Days, lines 95-105):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ἀλλὰ γυνὴ χείρεσσι πίθου μέγα πῶμ᾽ ἀφελοῦσα  &#xD;&#xA;ἐσκέδασ᾽: ἀνθρώποισι δ᾽ ἐμήσατο κήδεα λυγρά.  &#xD;&#xA;μούνη δ᾽ αὐτόθι Ἐλπὶς ἐν ἀρρήκτοισι δόμοισιν  &#xD;&#xA;ἔνδον ἔμιμνε πίθου ὑπὸ χείλεσιν, οὐδὲ θύραζε  &#xD;&#xA;ἐξέπτη: πρόσθεν γὰρ ἐπέλλαβε πῶμα πίθοιο  &#xD;&#xA;αἰγιόχου βουλῇσι Διὸς νεφεληγερέταο.  &#xD;&#xA;ἄλλα δὲ μυρία λυγρὰ κατ᾽ ἀνθρώπους ἀλάληται:  &#xD;&#xA;πλείη μὲν γὰρ γαῖα κακῶν, πλείη δὲ θάλασσα:  &#xD;&#xA;νοῦσοι δ᾽ ἀνθρώποισιν ἐφ᾽ ἡμέρῃ, αἳ δ᾽ ἐπὶ νυκτὶ  &#xD;&#xA;αὐτόματοι φοιτῶσι κακὰ θνητοῖσι φέρουσαι  &#xD;&#xA;σιγῇ, ἐπεὶ φωνὴν ἐξείλετο μητίετα Ζεύς.  &#xD;&#xA;οὕτως οὔτι πη ἔστι Διὸς νόον ἐξαλέασθαι.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Hugh G. Evelyn-White's translation, the passage is: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But the woman took off the great lid of the jar with her hands and scattered, all these and her thought caused sorrow and mischief to men. Only Hope remained there in an unbreakable home within under the rim of the great jar, and did not fly out at the door; for ere that, the lid of the jar stopped her, by the will of Aegis-holding Zeus who gathers the clouds. But the rest, countless plagues, wander amongst men; for earth is full of evils, and the sea is full. Of themselves diseases come upon men continually by day and by night, bringing mischief to mortals silently; for wise Zeus took away speech from them." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7079" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1668" RevisionGUID="99545f2f-e3ba-466c-a1b0-466212e784b7" CreationDate="2016-05-26T08:38:38.120" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 10 characters in body" Text="I want to give a context interpretation of the myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That youth will fly high ignoring advice and takes risks, as the other answer says, is the first level, &quot;listen to your elders&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The long term result, (moral for the present day?)  is that this youth is remembered over millennia and his name was given to a sea, so there was some recompense to the bad outcome of the risk. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My main observation is that fortunately for humanity's youth, and people who remain young in mentality, they do take risks. Had Icarus not dared to fly higher than caution, there would have been no myth and no Icarian sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Had the wings not melted, (50/50 chance  of deterioration?) gliders would have been discovered thousands of years ago). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The present  moral  should be: listen to your elders  precautionary instructions, and use  forethought before risk taking. Suppressing risk according to the dictates of the elders would lead to a static society.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7080" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1673" RevisionGUID="97487ac7-aded-4e21-9310-589e108af929" CreationDate="2016-05-26T09:54:06.483" UserId="201" Text="&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Keres.html&quot;&gt;Theoi&lt;/a&gt; suggests that the overall name for the evil spirits might be Keres:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Keres may have been the evil spirits released from Pandora's jar to plague mankind. Hesiod mentions them indirectly in his account of the episode. He describes these spirits as **kakoi** (evils), **nosoi** (sicknesses and plagues) and **lugra** (banes).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They are mentioned both above and within the passage Yannis cites:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;For ere this [the opening of Pandora's jar] the tribes of men lived on earth remote and free from ills **(kakoi)** and hard toil (ponoi) and heavy sickness **(nosoi)** which bring the **Keres** (Fates) upon men; for in misery men grow old quickly. But the woman took off the great lid of the jar (pithos) with her hands and scattered all these and her thought caused sorrow and mischief to men. Only Elpis (Hope) remained there in an unbreakable home within under the rim of the great jar, and did not fly out at the door; for ere that, the lid of the jar stopped her, by the will of Aigis-holding Zeus who gathers the clouds. But the rest, countless plagues **(lugra)**, wander amongst men; for earth is full of evils and the sea is full. Of themselves diseases (nosoi) come upon men continually by day and by night, bringing mischief to mortals silently; for wise Zeus took away speech from them. So is there no way to escape the will of Zeus.&quot; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7081" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1674" RevisionGUID="7dfe2695-ab96-4217-84d6-95cad0bd76ec" CreationDate="2016-05-26T12:09:25.160" UserId="1613" Text="**Cerberus** is a three headed dog, so normally you could think that he has three minds, one for each head/brain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, _Ancient Greek medicine placed the rational soul in the heart_, rather than the brain (for them the brain was a form of &quot;cranial stuffing&quot;).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, in the context of Greek Mythology, **it would be safe to assume that Cerberus had only one mind/personality?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(same could be applied to the _Centimanes_, which had fifty heads).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7082" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1674" RevisionGUID="7dfe2695-ab96-4217-84d6-95cad0bd76ec" CreationDate="2016-05-26T12:09:25.160" UserId="1613" Text="Does Cerberus was supposed to have only one &quot;mind&quot; (despite having three brains)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7083" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1674" RevisionGUID="7dfe2695-ab96-4217-84d6-95cad0bd76ec" CreationDate="2016-05-26T12:09:25.160" UserId="1613" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7085" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1675" RevisionGUID="61093515-19a0-49e4-ba88-b97266282259" CreationDate="2016-05-28T15:51:51.470" UserId="967" Text="There were 3 furies/erinyes. They were to ensure punishment in Hades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did each of them serve a different purpose? Or did they do the same thing?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example- 1 fury would punish a person for eating too much ice cream, another too many cookies, and another too many jelly beans. Or was it all 3 furies to punish one person for eating too much dessert?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7086" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1675" RevisionGUID="61093515-19a0-49e4-ba88-b97266282259" CreationDate="2016-05-28T15:51:51.470" UserId="967" Text="Were the furies/erinyes of one accord?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7087" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1675" RevisionGUID="61093515-19a0-49e4-ba88-b97266282259" CreationDate="2016-05-28T15:51:51.470" UserId="967" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|erinyes|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7088" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1417" RevisionGUID="40a1e6a6-3a7b-4686-8e9f-785731ebb73a" CreationDate="2016-05-28T22:20:39.153" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="7089" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1676" RevisionGUID="9326cfbe-be28-4775-95e2-647563c237ae" CreationDate="2016-05-29T01:17:21.540" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="Among the earliest known mermaid myths is that of the Assyrian goddess [Atargatis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atargatis), also called Ataratheh or Derceto. She fell in love with a shepherd, accidentally killed him, and ashamed of what she had done she jumped into a lake. But the water could not conceal her divine beauty, and while she became a fish below the waist she became a woman above it." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7090" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1676" RevisionGUID="83cb3453-207f-4d53-82d0-c4cd2e8377ce" CreationDate="2016-05-29T01:22:49.103" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="added 108 characters in body" Text="Among the earliest known mermaid myths is that of the Assyrian goddess [Atargatis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atargatis), also called Ataratheh or Derceto. She fell in love with a shepherd, accidentally killed him, and ashamed of what she had done she jumped into a lake. But the water could not conceal her divine beauty, and while she became a fish below the waist she became a woman above it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She predates the Greek Nereids, Tritons and Sirens, and also Thessalonike, Alexander the Great's sister." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7091" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1676" RevisionGUID="d5e46ad4-ff61-46f8-b92f-4dfc1b646a68" CreationDate="2016-05-29T01:57:26.263" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="added 292 characters in body" Text="Among the earliest known mermaid myths is that of the Assyrian goddess [Atargatis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atargatis), also called Ataratheh or Derceto. She fell in love with a shepherd, accidentally killed him, and ashamed of what she had done she jumped into a lake. But the water could not conceal her divine beauty, and while she became a fish below the waist she became a woman above it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She predates the Greek Nereids, Tritons and Sirens, and also Thessalonike, Alexander the Great's sister.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She is said to have originated around 1000 BC, but the earliest representation of her that I have found a reference to is on coinage in Hierapolis in the 4th century BC, and the earliest I have found showing her as part fish and part woman is on a coin from as late as the 1st century BC." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7092" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1677" RevisionGUID="07347bd5-2e3b-4f1e-b964-d9efb37d16e7" CreationDate="2016-05-29T02:26:56.303" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="One example of sevenness is that there are seven &quot;planets&quot; normally visible to the naked eye. Since ancient times, this has been expressed in the length of the week: seven days.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By &quot;planet&quot;, I mean a celestial object that moves against the background of the fixed stars. So the list includes both the Sun and the Moon but not Uranus, which is visible but only on very dark nights by those with keen eyesight.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These &quot;planets&quot;, listed in Chaldean order, namely in order of how fast they move against the fixed stars, from slowest to fastest, are&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Saturn&#xD;&#xA;- Jupiter&#xD;&#xA;- Mars&#xD;&#xA;- the Sun&#xD;&#xA;- Venus&#xD;&#xA;- Mercury&#xD;&#xA;- the Moon&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Given a day of 24 hours, start by labelling the first hour of the week after Saturn, the second after Jupiter, and so on, returning to Saturn after the Moon. Each day is said to be governed by the planet after which [its first hour is named after](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planetary_hours) (hours numbered 1, 25, 49, etc.).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Latin:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- dies Solis (day of the Sun, Sunday)&#xD;&#xA;- dies Lunae (day of the Moon, Monday)&#xD;&#xA;- dies Martis (day of Mars, Tuesday)&#xD;&#xA;- dies Mercurii (day of Mercury, Wednesday)&#xD;&#xA;- dies Iovis (day of Jupiter, Thursday)&#xD;&#xA;- dies Veneris (day of Venus, Friday)&#xD;&#xA;- dies Saturni (day of Saturn, Saturday)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This correspondence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_days_of_the_week#Days_named_after_planets) is still seen in the names of the days in French, except for Sunday (dimanche):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- samedi (Saturday, Saturn)&#xD;&#xA;- lundi (Monday, Moon)&#xD;&#xA;- mardi (Tuesday, Mars)&#xD;&#xA;- mercredi (Wednesday, Mercury)&#xD;&#xA;- jeudi (Thursday, Jupiter)&#xD;&#xA;- vendredi (Friday, Venus)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7093" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1678" RevisionGUID="70a9ab08-7015-4ce0-b9f4-0af0cd530f51" CreationDate="2016-05-29T03:02:13.890" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="There is a [sheep-counting system in northern England](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yan_tan_tethera), also used for counting stitches in knitting, which derives from a [Brythonic Celtic language](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brittonic_languages). Is there any surviving folklore that is known or reasonably hypothesised to derive from the culture of the [Picts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picts)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7094" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1678" RevisionGUID="70a9ab08-7015-4ce0-b9f4-0af0cd530f51" CreationDate="2016-05-29T03:02:13.890" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="Does any folklore of Pictish origin survive in Britain or Ireland?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7095" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1678" RevisionGUID="70a9ab08-7015-4ce0-b9f4-0af0cd530f51" CreationDate="2016-05-29T03:02:13.890" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7096" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1674" RevisionGUID="c23c3a1c-007f-4e0e-8fb8-9d1777bb7629" CreationDate="2016-05-29T03:24:49.180" UserId="241" Comment="copyedit (edit summary must be at least 10 characters)" Text="Was Cerberus supposed to have only one &quot;mind&quot; (despite having three brains)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7097" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1674" RevisionGUID="c23c3a1c-007f-4e0e-8fb8-9d1777bb7629" CreationDate="2016-05-29T03:24:49.180" Comment="Proposed by 241 approved by 967, 62 edit id of 320" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7098" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="1417" RevisionGUID="d09c024d-83c0-4b42-91cb-6edaf0d3575c" CreationDate="2016-05-29T09:06:12.263" UserId="57" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Yannis&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="7105" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1680" RevisionGUID="3b631258-d263-4391-a04d-539d8ac9d627" CreationDate="2016-05-31T11:39:40.053" UserId="1624" Text="This question is really hard to answer...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most of the sources indicate that Erinyes are the representation of a lunar deity called Erinys, so a single goddess, which means one meaning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The number 3 in the greek civilisation is really symbolic, and in every religion in fact, it's linked to the &quot;entirety&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anyway, I don't think (and I didn't find anywhere the contrary) that they had each of them, a different roles." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7106" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1681" RevisionGUID="8f3f44f8-d219-4c2f-87c5-93a0956b5946" CreationDate="2016-05-31T16:59:43.690" UserId="42" Text="Looking at the development of medicine in Greek antiquity, in particular at the time of Hippocrates, you see references made to the poor understanding Greek medicine shows of anatomy, and chalks this up to a taboo against dissecting the human body.  Is there any source that establishes or explains this prohibition?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And what changed to allow Herophilus to come along less than 100 years after Hippocrates, and perform systematic human dissections?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7107" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1681" RevisionGUID="8f3f44f8-d219-4c2f-87c5-93a0956b5946" CreationDate="2016-05-31T16:59:43.690" UserId="42" Text="Why was dissection taboo in Greek antiquity, and what caused that to change?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7108" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1681" RevisionGUID="8f3f44f8-d219-4c2f-87c5-93a0956b5946" CreationDate="2016-05-31T16:59:43.690" UserId="42" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7109" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1681" RevisionGUID="199b0373-1e6e-4e85-b9dc-9e3e192a969c" CreationDate="2016-05-31T17:04:25.283" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|medicine|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7114" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1683" RevisionGUID="fa8d213e-b910-490f-98c4-2b0992aba526" CreationDate="2016-06-01T19:03:14.413" UserId="1632" Text="I had assumed that Apollo was the sun god in the Augustan era of Rome. I still think this is true. But I read a passage in Wikipedia that made me doubt this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Hellenistic times, especially during the 3rd century BCE, as Apollo Helios he became identified among Greeks with Helios, Titan god of the sun, and his sister Artemis similarly equated with Selene, Titan goddess of the moon.[2] **In Latin texts,** on the other hand, Joseph Fontenrose declared himself unable to find any conflation of Apollo with Sol among the Augustan poets of the 1st century, not even in the conjurations of Aeneas and Latinus in Aeneid XII (161–215).[3] Apollo and Helios/Sol remained separate beings in literary and mythological texts until the 3rd century CE. [Wikipedia (Apollo)][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am confident that Apollo was the god of the sun, since Charles Martin's translation of the *Metamorphoses* refers to the sun god by the names Phoebus or Phoebus Apollo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But the passage seems to say that Apollo was not conflated with Sol. That would leave us with two sun gods. Or maybe an &quot;old&quot; sun god and a &quot;new&quot; sun god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm curious what you guys think of this question. Was there simply an &quot;old&quot; sun god (Sol) and a newer, assimilated sun god (Apolllo)? Or is the Wikipedia passage inaccurate?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This question was originally posted in latin.SE. I think it's on-topic in both forums.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://latin.stackexchange.com/questions/963/was-apollo-the-sun-god-in-the-augustan-era&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7115" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1683" RevisionGUID="fa8d213e-b910-490f-98c4-2b0992aba526" CreationDate="2016-06-01T19:03:14.413" UserId="1632" Text="Was Apollo the sun god in Augustan Rome?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7116" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1683" RevisionGUID="fa8d213e-b910-490f-98c4-2b0992aba526" CreationDate="2016-06-01T19:03:14.413" UserId="1632" Text="|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7117" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1684" RevisionGUID="e73e5d80-7a5e-4ffa-8bdd-968aa8e76a43" CreationDate="2016-06-02T00:00:52.397" UserId="42" Text="Found a paper on the topic:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[&quot;The discovery of the body: human dissection and its cultural contexts in ancient Greece.&quot;](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2589595/), by H. van Staden, Yale Journal of Biology and Medicine.  1992 May-Jun; 65(3): 223–241&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'll provide my poor summary of a few salient bits here, but if you are interested, it's a very interesting read.  The paper presents three reasons that dissection would have been unacceptable to ancient Greek culture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First, a human corpse is seen as a significant polluting influence:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In many ancient Greek sacred laws, every human corpse is considered a significant source of pollution for all who, in any fashion whatsoever, come into contact with it or stand in a relation of kinship to it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A number of surviving laws are cited, attesting to the contamination visited on the house and people around the corpse, and including cleansing rituals for the house of the deceased, those who have come into contact with the corpse, and the burial site, as a well as a waiting period before a contaminated person in allowed to enter shrines again.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Second, the &quot;cultural valorization of the skin&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; With few exceptions, complex religious, social, and political Greek traditions assert the inviolability of the skin, dead of alive, human or animal, except as a means of gaining control of a crisis.  &#xD;&#xA;...  &#xD;&#xA;Skin is a magical symbol of wholeness and oneness, of the integrity of individual or collective organisms that might become susceptible to disintegration or fragmentation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Again, examples are given, citing the importance of skin (or hides) in mythology, foundation stories and religious observances.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The third reason presented analyzes the Greek word *temnein* (to cut), and its primarily being associated with violent or sacrificial acts.  The author admits this to be speculative, and I'm not sure I can effectively summarize the point here, as I'm not sure I quite understand the point, myself." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7118" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1681" RevisionGUID="d3126b86-d929-4b27-a34b-9c463a2e8da6" CreationDate="2016-06-02T00:03:05.863" UserId="42" Comment="Removing the &quot;what caused it to change&quot; part of the question.  Shouldn't have asked two questions in the first place, and the answer to just the first one turned out to be fairly complex." Text="Looking at the development of medicine in Greek antiquity, in particular at the time of Hippocrates, you see references made to the poor understanding Greek medicine shows of anatomy, and chalks this up to a taboo against dissecting the human body.  Is there any source that establishes or explains this prohibition?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7119" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1681" RevisionGUID="d3126b86-d929-4b27-a34b-9c463a2e8da6" CreationDate="2016-06-02T00:03:05.863" UserId="42" Comment="Removing the &quot;what caused it to change&quot; part of the question.  Shouldn't have asked two questions in the first place, and the answer to just the first one turned out to be fairly complex." Text="Why was dissection taboo in Greek antiquity?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7126" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1685" RevisionGUID="bdb6dc24-a1b6-4ebd-8b60-b49ca96a11ae" CreationDate="2016-06-02T13:11:28.637" UserId="1241" Text="**Yes**, [Phoebus Apollo][1] was the sun god during the time of [Augustine][2] at Rome.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The worship of Apollo was widespread not only in Greece but also throughout the ancient world. Shrines could be found in places from Egypt to Anatolia (now northwestern Turkey). The Romans built their first temple to Apollo (Phoebus) in 432  B  .  C  ., and he became a favorite Roman god. The Roman emperor Augustus was a devoted worshiper because the battle of Actium, in which he gained political supremacy, was fought near a temple of Apollo. - [Myths Encyclopedia.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But how do we reconcile the this with the Roman Cult of Mithras or the [Sol Invictus][3] of Rome?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Roman deity Mithras appears in the historical record in the late 1st century A.D., and disappears from it in the late 4th century A.D. Unlike the major mythological figures of Graeco-Roman religion, such as Jupiter and Hercules, no ancient source preserves the mythology of the god. All of our information is therefore derived from depictions on monuments, and the limited mentions of the cult in literary sources. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;The temples of Mithras were always an underground cave, featuring a relief of Mithras killing the bull. This &quot;tauroctony&quot;, as it is known today, appears in the same format everywhere, but with minor variations. Other standard themes appear in the iconography. - [The Cult of Mithras][4] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Roman Emporer [Aurelian][5] made the Cult of the Invincible Sun official only in 274:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Roman gens Aurelia was associated with the cult of Sol. After his victories in the East, the emperor Aurelian introduced an official cult of Sol Invictus, making the sun-god the premier divinity of the empire, and wearing his radiated crown himself. He founded a college of pontifices, and dedicated a temple to Sol Invictus in 274. It is possible that he created the festival called dies natalis Solis Invicti, &quot;birthday of the undefeated Sun&quot;, which is recorded in 354 (in the Chronography of 354) as celebrated on the 25th December; (7) but no earlier reference to it exists. The cult of Sol Invictius was the leading official cult of the fourth century.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;In the legions, where a policy of individual religious freedom is attested by personal inscriptions, on shrines and through votive offerings in every part of the Empire, outside the camps themselves, the only Eastern cult that was officially tolerated, probably from Aurelian's reign, and certainly under Constantine, was that of Sol Invictus. - [Sol Invictus.][6] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Cult of Mithras thus came into being after Augustine and became obsolete in in 4th century BC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Am-Ar/Apollo.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Invictus&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/mithras/display.php?page=main&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurelian&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://In%20the%20legions,%20where%20a%20policy%20of%20individual%20religious%20freedom%20is%20attested%20by%20personal%20inscriptions,%20on%20shrines%20and%20through%20votive%20offerings%20in%20every%20part%20of%20the%20Empire,%20outside%20the%20camps%20themselves,%20the%20only%20Eastern%20cult%20that%20was%20officially%20tolerated,%20probably%20from%20Aurelian's%20reign,%20and%20certainly%20under%20Constantine,%20was%20that%20of%20Sol%20Invictus.%20(8)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7128" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1685" RevisionGUID="78e033cc-dcc9-4a31-a413-cec9f6011ae3" CreationDate="2016-06-02T13:26:49.693" UserId="1241" Comment="Added three words to body." Text="**Yes**, [Phoebus Apollo][1] was the sun god during the time of [Augustine][2] at Rome.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The worship of Apollo was widespread not only in Greece but also throughout the ancient world. Shrines could be found in places from Egypt to Anatolia (now northwestern Turkey). The Romans built their first temple to Apollo (Phoebus) in 432  B  .  C  ., and he became a favorite Roman god. The Roman emperor Augustus was a devoted worshiper because the battle of Actium, in which he gained political supremacy, was fought near a temple of Apollo. - [Myths Encyclopedia.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But how do we reconcile the this with the Roman Cult of Mithras or the [Sol Invictus][3] of Rome?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Roman deity Mithras appears in the historical record in the late 1st century A.D., and disappears from it in the late 4th century A.D. Unlike the major mythological figures of Graeco-Roman religion, such as Jupiter and Hercules, no ancient source preserves the mythology of the god. All of our information is therefore derived from depictions on monuments, and the limited mentions of the cult in literary sources. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;The temples of Mithras were always an underground cave, featuring a relief of Mithras killing the bull. This &quot;tauroctony&quot;, as it is known today, appears in the same format everywhere, but with minor variations. Other standard themes appear in the iconography. - [The Cult of Mithras][4] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Roman Emporer [Aurelian][5] made the Cult of the Invincible Sun official only in 274:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Roman gens Aurelia was associated with the cult of Sol. After his victories in the East, the emperor Aurelian introduced an official cult of Sol Invictus, making the sun-god the premier divinity of the empire, and wearing his radiated crown himself. He founded a college of pontifices, and dedicated a temple to Sol Invictus in 274. It is possible that he created the festival called dies natalis Solis Invicti, &quot;birthday of the undefeated Sun&quot;, which is recorded in 354 (in the Chronography of 354) as celebrated on the 25th December; (7) but no earlier reference to it exists. The cult of Sol Invictius was the leading official cult of the fourth century.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;In the legions, where a policy of individual religious freedom is attested by personal inscriptions, on shrines and through votive offerings in every part of the Empire, outside the camps themselves, the only Eastern cult that was officially tolerated, probably from Aurelian's reign, and certainly under Constantine, was that of Sol Invictus. - [Sol Invictus.][6] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Cult of Mithras thus came into being after Augustine and became obsolete in or around the 4th century BC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Am-Ar/Apollo.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Invictus&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/mithras/display.php?page=main&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurelian&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://In%20the%20legions,%20where%20a%20policy%20of%20individual%20religious%20freedom%20is%20attested%20by%20personal%20inscriptions,%20on%20shrines%20and%20through%20votive%20offerings%20in%20every%20part%20of%20the%20Empire,%20outside%20the%20camps%20themselves,%20the%20only%20Eastern%20cult%20that%20was%20officially%20tolerated,%20probably%20from%20Aurelian's%20reign,%20and%20certainly%20under%20Constantine,%20was%20that%20of%20Sol%20Invictus.%20(8)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7130" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1686" RevisionGUID="d726ba11-f7a5-4acc-a470-5c5e96554e25" CreationDate="2016-06-02T16:33:09.033" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="Many traditional children's games are of fairly recent origin. For example, the game of [conkers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conkers) dates back no further than the 19th century, making it no more than about 10 generations old.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reliability of claims that [hopscotch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hopscotch) dates back to the Roman empire has been [questioned](https://rogueclassicism.com/2009/02/14/hopscotch-origins/), and claims that the [skipping rope](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skipping_rope) was used in ancient Phoenicia, Egypt or China may be similarly fanciful.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the oldest traditional children's game? By that I mean, what game played by children today, passed down by oral tradition, verifiably dates back furthest?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7131" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1686" RevisionGUID="d726ba11-f7a5-4acc-a470-5c5e96554e25" CreationDate="2016-06-02T16:33:09.033" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="What is the oldest traditional children's game?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7132" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1686" RevisionGUID="d726ba11-f7a5-4acc-a470-5c5e96554e25" CreationDate="2016-06-02T16:33:09.033" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7133" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1687" RevisionGUID="97283c27-3a3f-47fa-b5e9-74c1c56d99a4" CreationDate="2016-06-02T17:28:47.697" UserDisplayName="user1637" Text="In much of Europe it is believed to be unlucky to spill salt, and it is thought advisable that someone who spills it should throw a pinch of it over their left shoulder. How old is this belief?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7134" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1687" RevisionGUID="97283c27-3a3f-47fa-b5e9-74c1c56d99a4" CreationDate="2016-06-02T17:28:47.697" UserDisplayName="user1637" Text="How old is the belief that spilling salt is unlucky and should be followed by throwing a pinch of salt over the shoulder?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7135" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1687" RevisionGUID="97283c27-3a3f-47fa-b5e9-74c1c56d99a4" CreationDate="2016-06-02T17:28:47.697" UserDisplayName="user1637" Text="|superstition|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7136" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1688" RevisionGUID="908da301-9648-49d1-9487-1f957a308a9f" CreationDate="2016-06-02T17:51:58.477" UserId="1638" Text="In his book Les nouvelles nourritures, André Gide wrote:&#xA;&quot;N'ai je pas lu ce matin dans Plutarque, au seuil des Vies de Romulus et de Thésée, que ces deux grands fondateurs de cités, pour être nés &quot;secrètement et d'une union clandestine&quot; ont passé pour des fils de dieux?...&quot; &#xA;&#xA;Can you please explain what he meant.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;Thanks" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7137" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1688" RevisionGUID="908da301-9648-49d1-9487-1f957a308a9f" CreationDate="2016-06-02T17:51:58.477" UserId="1638" Text="André Gide - les nouvelles nourritures" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7138" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1688" RevisionGUID="908da301-9648-49d1-9487-1f957a308a9f" CreationDate="2016-06-02T17:51:58.477" UserId="1638" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7139" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1689" RevisionGUID="ccc670d9-a515-4e55-9294-6a501100e1d3" CreationDate="2016-06-02T18:12:34.770" UserDisplayName="user1637" Text="&quot;The black dog&quot; has been used as a metaphor for depression or sulking [since at least 1790](https://www.blackdoginstitute.org.au/docs/Foley.pdf). Today it is used to denote depression and sometimes a broader range of mental illnesses. For example, in Britain the mental health charity SANE runs a Black Dog Campaign against the stigmatisation of the mentally ill, and in Australia the Black Dog Institute works to diagnose, treat and prevent mood disorders.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the connection, if any, between the use of the metaphor of the black dog for depression or melancholy with the [black dog of British folklore](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_dog_%28ghost%29)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7140" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1689" RevisionGUID="ccc670d9-a515-4e55-9294-6a501100e1d3" CreationDate="2016-06-02T18:12:34.770" UserDisplayName="user1637" Text="Is there a connection between the use of the metaphor &quot;black dog&quot; for depression and the black dog of British folklore?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7141" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1689" RevisionGUID="ccc670d9-a515-4e55-9294-6a501100e1d3" CreationDate="2016-06-02T18:12:34.770" UserDisplayName="user1637" Text="|mythical-creatures|folklore|british|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7142" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1687" RevisionGUID="a5a33b8a-6a14-4d58-81e5-03db0c26cdae" CreationDate="2016-06-02T18:30:29.970" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|folklore|superstition|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7143" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1690" RevisionGUID="390d28a1-125e-45dd-a95f-95e8761003d4" CreationDate="2016-06-02T18:59:18.803" UserId="1640" Text="When I was a child my grandmother told me a myth of old times. I've read the myth (in a somewhat alternated version) in a book in my teenage years.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It goes like this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A shepherd goes out to tend to his sheep, but gets tiered when the sun burns down on him.&#xD;&#xA;He sits in the shadow of an old oak and drinks from a spring there.&#xD;&#xA;Then he fells asleep. When he awakes, he does not recognize his field  (&quot;Alm&quot;, I could not find a translation for that word) anymore. Everything is grown over with shrouds, his plow is gone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He then stands up and goes to his home, only to find it burnt down. He goes to the nearest town and everyone is dead. The plague had hit the place and all the living ones had fled, he even walked to the next city but did not meet a living person. He found a graveyard, but all the dates are in the future, so he concludes that he must have slept for at least a hundred years.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The last part is an element that I think is special to the version the people of my grandmother]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He wanders to the top of the world and finds a woman who survived in her hut far away from people in the mountains. They have many children and their offspring still live at that place.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That offspring explains why there are people living where my grandmother comes from (a very lone valley up in the alps, &quot;Mallnitz&quot; is the next village today).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story is from southern Austria, but I've read it in a book from Germany, so I assume that there are similar stories in other parts of the german/bavarian speaking area.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I remembered the story after reading the Wikipedia page [Líf and Lífþrasir][1] where a similar story is mentioned, unfortunately without link or name.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%ADf_and_L%C3%ADf%C3%BErasir" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7144" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1690" RevisionGUID="390d28a1-125e-45dd-a95f-95e8761003d4" CreationDate="2016-06-02T18:59:18.803" UserId="1640" Text="Story of a man who slept in a tree and awoke to a plagued city" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7145" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1690" RevisionGUID="390d28a1-125e-45dd-a95f-95e8761003d4" CreationDate="2016-06-02T18:59:18.803" UserId="1640" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7146" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1417" RevisionGUID="cc7d57b2-1856-49a0-9761-50d3045037dc" CreationDate="2016-06-02T20:33:03.790" UserDisplayName="user1637" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="No matter the background/story/world vampires drink blood &lt;s&gt;and sparkle&lt;/s&gt;, because this sort of diet is necessary for their existence (although in some versions they can suppress the hunger).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Werewolves are humans (or human looking creatures) that can turn into wolves or half-wolf, half-human hybrids and they have a slight allergy towards silver. While they don't *need* to eat humans, they usually attack them in bouts of rage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ghosts are dead people that came back because they have something to settle - be it malevolent haunting or protection of some place or person.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And then we have fairies - sidhe, elves (not the Tolkien type), fairy folk etc, who have the bad habit of replacing human babies with their own for whatever reason, creating changelings (&quot;children that have been changed, replaced&quot;). A changeling grows among humans and later discovers his true calling.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But what happens with the kidnapped human children? Is there some sort of consensus as to what fairies actually do with them? I'm assuming it's nothing good, but besides a brief note in the Wikipedia saying that &quot;in Scottish folklore, the children might be replacements for fairy children in the tithe to Hell&quot; there is very little information about the possible fate of such kids.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;EDIT: While I'm interested in all possible cultures, I'm especially interested in Ireland and Britain." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7147" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1417" RevisionGUID="cc7d57b2-1856-49a0-9761-50d3045037dc" CreationDate="2016-06-02T20:33:03.790" UserDisplayName="user1637" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="What do faeries do with kidnapped human children?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7148" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1417" RevisionGUID="cc7d57b2-1856-49a0-9761-50d3045037dc" CreationDate="2016-06-02T20:33:03.790" Comment="Proposed by 1637 approved by 967, -1 edit id of 322" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7149" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1417" RevisionGUID="d8c6b56e-85f6-4dbf-869b-53cc48735452" CreationDate="2016-06-02T20:33:03.790" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="Fairies -- sidhe, elves (not the Tolkien type), fairy folk etc -- have the bad habit of replacing human babies with their own for whatever reason, creating changelings (&quot;children that have been changed, replaced&quot;). A changeling grows among humans and later discovers his true calling.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But what happens with the kidnapped human children? Is there some sort of consensus as to what fairies actually do with them? I'm assuming it's nothing good, but besides a brief note in the Wikipedia saying that &quot;in Scottish folklore, the children might be replacements for fairy children in the tithe to Hell&quot; there is very little information about the possible fate of such kids.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;EDIT: While I'm interested in all possible cultures, I'm especially interested in Ireland and Britain." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7150" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1691" RevisionGUID="125e1448-53b7-4fca-9506-c85e586e422d" CreationDate="2016-06-02T23:25:54.043" UserId="183" Text="My first reaction was that this sounds a lot like the story of [*Rip van Winkle*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rip_Van_Winkle), which is well-known, at least in the Northeastern United States. In the mid-1700s, a man (Rip van Winkle) and his dog hikes into the mountains, where they come across dwarfs bowling. He eventually falls asleep, waking up many years later - after the American Revolution.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There were, of course, [other precedents](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rip_Van_Winkle#Literary_forerunners). One that stands out here is the German folktale [*Peter Klaus*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Klaus), as well as a very similar folktale, [*Karl Katz*](http://www.donaldsauter.com/karl-katz.htm) (the title *Der Ziegenhirt* is sometimes used). In both of these cases, a German goatherd goes up into the mountains near his village with his flock. The story then proceeds nearly identically to *Rip van Winkle*, as the goatherd falls asleep and then wakes up many years later.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Neither tale has the goatherd wander back to find his village deserted, but he does find his own house in ruins:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Again he shook his head, and went straight through the village to his own cottage. Alas! it looked sadly out of repair; the windows were broken, the door off its hinges, and in the courtyard lay an unknown child, in a ragged dress, playing with a rough, toothless old dog, whom he thought he ought to know, but who snarled and barked in his face when he called to him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I suspect that your grandmother's story is strongly inspired by this, but instead of Peter's/Karl's house falling into disrepair (as would be expected), she had the entire village become deserted. That said, there are many versions of the same story (not all German or Austrian, of course), so it's possible that she got that part from elsewhere." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7151" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1692" RevisionGUID="9ba9c907-2df3-4f66-8f68-39b941dbea77" CreationDate="2016-06-03T02:27:52.183" UserId="1241" Text="There are many who believe that the spilling of salt is a sign of bad luck and has its' origin in  Leonardo da Vinci’s painting of the Last Supper!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Last Supper has given us two common superstitions: the first is that you should never seat 13 at dinner, and the second is that spilling salt brings bad luck.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;If you look closely at Leonardo da Vinci’s painting of the Last Supper, you can see that Judas has knocked the salt cellar over with his elbow. Thanks to Judas Iscariot, spilled salt is associated with treachery and lies. If you do spill salt, a pinch thrown over your left shoulder is supposed to blind the devil waiting there. - [Daily Mail][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Last supper by Leonardo da Vinci][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this image of the left side of Leonardo da Vinci's painting of the Last Supper, one is able to observe Judas spilling the salt on the table!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1385380/Why-throw-salt-shoulder-superstitions-answered.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/1tC8j.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7152" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1693" RevisionGUID="012680a4-23df-4c17-b910-0127c27dd56c" CreationDate="2016-06-03T08:05:49.507" UserDisplayName="user1637" Text="Painted figures on the prows of boats and amulets for warding off the &quot;evil eye&quot;, sometimes themselves called &quot;evil eyes&quot;, are used around the Mediterranean and connected seas (North Africa, the Levant, Turkey, Greece, Albania, southern Italy and Spain) and further afield (parts of the Black Sea coast, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Portugal and Latin America).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This symbol, the Arabic [hamsa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamsa), common throughout North Africa and the Middle East, derives from [Tanit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanit), the principal goddess of ancient Phoenicia:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![hamsa](https://i.stack.imgur.com/9xLN9.png)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Amulets against the evil eye that show concentric discs are also widely used in the same region, including in Turkey where they are called [nazars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazar_%28amulet%29):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![nazar](https://i.stack.imgur.com/9Un4k.png)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The idea of the malevolent stare features in many cultures, including for example in connection with [Balor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balor) in Irish mythology, who has become known as Balor of the Evil Eye.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But what about symbols for warding off the evil eye? Have any featured in the cultures of northern, northwestern or eastern Europe that are related to the ones used in the Mediterranean region?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7153" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1693" RevisionGUID="012680a4-23df-4c17-b910-0127c27dd56c" CreationDate="2016-06-03T08:05:49.507" UserDisplayName="user1637" Text="Have any cultures of N, NW or E Europe used symbols for warding off the &quot;evil eye&quot; that are related to ones used around the Mediterranean?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7154" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1693" RevisionGUID="012680a4-23df-4c17-b910-0127c27dd56c" CreationDate="2016-06-03T08:05:49.507" UserDisplayName="user1637" Text="|folklore|arabic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7155" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1688" RevisionGUID="10a488d9-b446-4fd2-bb87-1bb23f32b96c" CreationDate="2016-06-03T08:26:22.437" UserId="111" Comment="Incorporated my translation, modified formatting etc." Text="In his book Les nouvelles nourritures, André Gide wrote:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; N'ai je pas lu ce matin dans Plutarque, au seuil des Vies de Romulus et de Thésée, que ces deux grands fondateurs de cités, pour être nés &quot;secrètement et d'une union clandestine&quot; ont passé pour des fils de dieux?...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The quote translates roughly to:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Haven't I read this morning, at the beginning of Plutarch's Lives of Romulus and Theseus, that these two great founders of cities, because they were born 'secretly and from an hidden love', were thought to be the sons of gods?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can you please explain what he meant?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7156" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1688" RevisionGUID="10a488d9-b446-4fd2-bb87-1bb23f32b96c" CreationDate="2016-06-03T08:26:22.437" UserId="111" Comment="Incorporated my translation, modified formatting etc." Text="Quote on Romulus and Theseus from André Gide in Les Nouvelles Nourritures" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7157" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1688" RevisionGUID="10a488d9-b446-4fd2-bb87-1bb23f32b96c" CreationDate="2016-06-03T08:26:22.437" UserId="111" Comment="Incorporated my translation, modified formatting etc." Text="|greek|theseus|romulus-and-remus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7159" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1694" RevisionGUID="4af14dc9-9bcc-496e-bc5d-838f5a6b47cc" CreationDate="2016-06-03T10:19:31.027" UserId="201" Text="According to Theoi, Plutarch was taking legends and myths and &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theoi.com/Text/PlutarchTheseus.html&quot;&gt;trying to approach them historically.&lt;/a&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Romulus (along with his twin brother Remus) was one of the legendary founders of Rome, and his &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.mythindex.com/roman-mythology/R/Romulus.html&quot;&gt;mythological origin&lt;/a&gt; was that he was born to a Vestal virgin who was raped by the war-god Mars:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;As Silvia one day went into the sacred grove, to draw water for the service of the goddess, a wolf met her, and she fled into a cave for safety; there, while a total eclipse obscured the sun, Mars himself overpowered her, and then consoled her with the promise that she should be the mother of heroic children (Serv. ad Virg. Aen i. 274; Dionys. ii. 56; Plut. Rom. 27).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Theseus has a historical background as a prince, but other myths &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.mythindex.com/greek-mythology/T/Theseus.html&quot;&gt;claim he's the son of Poseidon:&lt;/a&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;According to the commonly received traditions Theseus was the son of Aegeus, king of Athens, and Aethra, the daughter of Pittheus, king of Troezen. Other legends, however, maintained their ground, which represented him as the son of Poseidon by Aethra. (Plut. Thes. 6 ; Diod. iv. 59; Paus. i. 17. § 3; comp. AETHRA.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So I think the quote you're referencing means that the author thinks Plutarch looked at the myths around these two men, realized they were born out of wedlock or their parentage was questioned, and suggested that myths grew to explain how such legendary people could have humble or unknown beginnings. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7164" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1696" RevisionGUID="7732fbaf-dd35-4833-aa19-5e9da9aa35be" CreationDate="2016-06-03T20:01:59.617" UserId="1646" Text="'The Cult of the Fox' by Xiaofei Kang, is a good reflection on how the 'Huxian'/'Huli Jing' myths predate the popular kitsune myth, and shows the establishment of a lot of the concepts taken for granted by pop-cultural depictions today, such as foxes feeding on human essence, associating with ghosts, or taking human form. There is also some brief mention within, of how the nine-tailed fox myth is easily as old as the Eastern Han dynasty, judging by some of the imagery it has been depicted in.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What has happened then, is that through Noh, and artists like Utagawa and Hokusai in the 1800's, Japan has claimed and revitalized the story of the nine-tailed fox, by merging it with that of numerous historical femme fatales, throughout India, China, and Japan. Bao Si. Daji. Tamamo-no-Mae. The nine-tailed fox itself, you will find, is not mentioned in any other story, about fox beings given human guise, in present recollection. Rather, it is epicly credited, within a handful of closely associated 'comparitively-modern' Japanese works, that the nine-tailed fox traveled from country to country to sow seditious discord, before finally ending its spree, with the life of Tamamo-no-Mae.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Best to think about it this way: the stories of the nine-tailed fox, the fox-courtesan, or 'huxian', and the trickster 'kitsune', are all variations on what foxes signified to people in different countries, over the ages. The feminine. The barbaric, outsider spirit. The trickster nature spirit. Their stories happened to grow up in tandem with folk religion, and each often contested the social norms of the time, even going so far as to spur social change (fox mediumship is one example represented in Chinese accounts). Because worship of fox spirits was heterodox--(for instance, in Shinto, Inari is discouraged from being associated AS the fox, but people form their own personal beliefs about Inari being the fox anyway), these stories often shadow a dominant religion, and are suppressed or appropriated by it in a constant struggle for rule.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What then happens is that folk superstition, especially represented in imagery, leads to the curiosity of literati, and their works preserve the ever-mutating myths. It is entirely possible that the 'kitsune' myth came about as a result of immigration and the influx of Buddhism and Taoism, into Japan. Looking back at some of Japan's significant mythical figures--Abe no Seimei, child of Kuzunoha, is reflected to be an Onmyoji--a Tao sorceror. Dakini-ten from Buddhist mythos, likewise, is depicted as a divine being riding a white fox. Such similar imagery and stories readily blend together, and synchronicity makes for the telling of a great ongoing ghost tale, readily picked up by any storyteller, regardless of its veracity or true origin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's easier to assume that, if there 'were' fox beings, they had whatever powers people wanted to ascribe to them at the time, and are only as connected or disconnected from one another, as their muddied lore, which travels orally, through visual icons, and through works of fiction-- gradually deviating based on cultural assumptions. Western pop culture, has effectively nurtured its own variations on the fox myths, which now live with us through our own interest. Which often is colored by New Agery, Therians and Otherkin, and misconceived notions about Shinto and Buddhist deities--and propagated by the works of anime lovers and furries. Likewise, Korea likes to depict the nine-tailed fox, explicitly, as a vampiric human-like seductress, and they are as common of a sight in dramas and movies there, as werewolves or vampires might be, here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's a never ending process of mutation. 'Do these foxes sparkle?' Digging back for the 'origin' is practically the task for a seasoned anthropologist." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7165" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1696" RevisionGUID="69ac4457-5e7d-4cf6-8c21-b32154bf08ee" CreationDate="2016-06-03T20:10:32.597" UserId="1646" Comment="added 68 characters in body" Text="'The Cult of the Fox' by Xiaofei Kang, is a good reflection on how the 'Huxian'/'Huli Jing' myths predate the popular kitsune myth, and shows the establishment of a lot of the concepts taken for granted by pop-cultural depictions today, such as foxes feeding on human essence, associating with ghosts, or taking human form. There is also some brief mention within, of how the nine-tailed fox myth is easily as old as the Eastern Han dynasty, judging by some of the imagery it has been depicted in.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What has happened then, is that through Noh, and artists like Utagawa and Hokusai in the 1800's, Japan has claimed and revitalized the story of the nine-tailed fox, by merging it with that of numerous historical femme fatales, throughout India, China, and Japan. Bao Si. Daji. Tamamo-no-Mae. The nine-tailed fox itself, you will find, is not mentioned in any other story, about fox beings given human guise, in present recollection. Rather, it is epicly credited, within a handful of closely associated 'comparitively-modern' Japanese works, that the nine-tailed fox traveled from country to country to sow seditious discord, before finally ending its spree, with the life of Tamamo-no-Mae.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Best to think about it this way: the stories of the nine-tailed fox, the fox-courtesan, or 'huxian', and the trickster 'kitsune', are all variations on what foxes signified to people in different countries, over the ages. The feminine. The barbaric, outsider spirit. The trickster nature spirit. Their stories happened to grow up in tandem with folk religion, and each often contested the social norms of the time, even going so far as to spur social change (fox mediumship is one example represented in Chinese accounts). Because worship of fox spirits was heterodox--(for instance, in Shinto, Inari is discouraged from being associated AS the fox, but people form their own personal beliefs about Inari being the fox anyway), these stories often shadow a dominant religion, and are suppressed or appropriated by it in a constant struggle for rule.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What then happens is that folk superstition, especially represented in imagery, leads to the curiosity of literati, and their works preserve the ever-mutating myths. It is entirely possible that the 'kitsune' myth came about as a result of immigration and the influx of Buddhism and Taoism, into Japan. Looking back at some of Japan's significant mythical figures--Abe no Seimei, child of Kuzunoha, is reflected to be an Onmyoji--a Tao sorceror. Dakini-ten from Buddhist mythos, likewise, is depicted as a divine being riding a white fox. Such similar imagery and stories readily blend together, and synchronicity makes for the telling of a great ongoing ghost tale, readily picked up by any storyteller, regardless of its veracity or true origin. Your culprits in this case, are the same artists we have discussed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's easier to assume that, if there 'were' fox beings, they had whatever powers people wanted to ascribe to them at the time, and are only as connected or disconnected from one another, as their muddied lore, which travels orally, through visual icons, and through works of fiction-- gradually deviating based on cultural assumptions. Western pop culture, has effectively nurtured its own variations on the fox myths, which now live with us through our own interest. Which often is colored by New Agery, Therians and Otherkin, and misconceived notions about Shinto and Buddhist deities--and propagated by the works of anime lovers and furries. Likewise, Korea likes to depict the nine-tailed fox, explicitly, as a vampiric human-like seductress, and they are as common of a sight in dramas and movies there, as werewolves or vampires might be, here. The main difference nowadays being, that we possess an internet, to be more aware of these cultural deviations to the myth, as they occur.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's a never ending process of mutation. 'Do these foxes sparkle?' Digging back for the 'origin' is practically the task for a seasoned anthropologist." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7167" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1698" RevisionGUID="925e5342-6cf8-4ca4-9ed2-6540c788faee" CreationDate="2016-06-03T22:47:52.197" UserId="42" Text="[Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable](https://archive.org/stream/brewersdictionar000544mbp#page/n805/mode/2up) claims the superstition dates to the Romans, when salt was used in sacrifices and spilling it from the head of the victim would be considered a bad omen:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Spilling salt** was held to be an unlucky omen by the Romans, and the superstition remains to this day, though, with us, the evil may be averted if he who spills the salt throw a pinch of it over the *left* shoulder with the *right* hand.  In Leonardo da Vinci's famous picture of the Lord's Supper, Judas Iscariot is known by the salt-cellar knocked over accidentally by his arm.  Salt was used in sacrifice by the Jews, as well as by the Greeks and Romans; and it is still used in baptism by the Roman Catholics.  It was an emblem of purity and the sanctifying influence of a holy life on others...  Spilling the salt after it was placed on the head of a victim was a bad omen, hence the superstition.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7168" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1699" RevisionGUID="7c69ae3e-4e66-4fe8-8f28-d77b52c8ba84" CreationDate="2016-06-04T03:42:08.717" UserId="1241" Text="Everybody knows that **horseshoes** are  symbols of good luck and good fortune, as well as a symbol of protection against the evil eye!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The use of a horseshoe to represent the lunar crescent is also ancient. Throughout Europe horseshoes are nailed to doors to prevent the evil eye from entering houses and barns. (The horseshoe charm has also acquired a second function, to &quot;draw&quot; luck to the bearer just as a horseshoe-magnet might attract iron filings or magnetic sand). - [The Evil Eye][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We can also read in [Superstitions Online][2] the following:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Another belief exists that the horseshoe, because of its' crescent shape, has the ability to ward off the evil eye. In ancient Europe and prior to the Chaldeans, this crescent shape represented various moon goddesses, which were signs of protection, good luck, fertility and could protect against a curse from the evil eye.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Horseshoes are the Doors of Life][3] has this to say about the origins of horseshoe symbolism and the evil eye.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In North America the horseshoe is by far the most well-known good luck charm, we see it constantly represented in jewelry, wall hangings and even furniture. But why do we consider this symbol one of such good luck? Even though many of us are fond of this symbol, most are not completely familiar with the origins and symbolism connected to the horseshoe.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Traditionally, horseshoes have been crafted by blacksmiths, this action alone gives the horseshoe good luck powers due to the fact that blacksmithing was considered to be an extremely lucky trade because the work required the use of one of the main elements – fire.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;The origin of the lucky horseshoe is traced back to Saint Dunstan, a blacksmith who later became archbishop of Canterbury, and the legend of his run in with the devil. There are several versions of the tale but all have the same outcome. The stories can’t seem to agree on how he did it but he is believed to have nailed a red hot horseshoe to the devil’s hoof causing the devil great pain. The saint bargained with the devil and agreed to remove the shoe if the devil agreed to never enter a house or building with a horseshoe hung above the door. Other versions say that the devil simply avoided homes with horseshoes due to the turmoil it had once caused him.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;In Turkey and adjacent areas of Greece, the horseshoe is used as a magical protecting agent against the evil eye which is a look given by a person who is envious or dislikes you that is said to cause you harm or bad luck. Horseshoes from this culture are usually metal or blue glass and are often integrated with an all-seeing eye emblem making them into a charm that averts evil.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Another legend originating in Europe is that worn out horseshoes were thought to posses special powers and are used as magical protective amulets. Many believe it is the shape alone that gives horseshoes their magical powers since it replicates the very shape of the pagan crescent or horned moon from which it is believed that horseshoes draw their power. When being used a for protection the horseshoe was hung over barn and stable doorways with its open end pointing downwards. It is said that no witch will pass under an upside down horseshoe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.luckymojo.com/evileye.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://superstitionsonline.com/horseshoe-superstitions-good-luck-up-and-down/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://mysendoff.com/2012/07/horseshoes-are-the-door-of-life/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7169" PostHistoryTypeId="12" PostId="1692" RevisionGUID="ad7cdcde-3c28-49a5-9e79-7ec48a791467" CreationDate="2016-06-04T14:51:48.170" UserId="1241" Comment="via Vote" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:1241,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ken Graham&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="7170" PostHistoryTypeId="13" PostId="1692" RevisionGUID="8dd3a3b7-bfe8-4868-8bca-d22c2e8ee868" CreationDate="2016-06-04T14:53:50.483" UserId="1241" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:1241,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ken Graham&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="7171" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1700" RevisionGUID="9c4729f0-307c-4399-a398-57c1c03dc51f" CreationDate="2016-06-04T23:39:06.307" UserId="1639" Text=" I'm sorry I don't have much time to devote to this answer, but I have a Turkish cobalt blue glass disc with a hole for hanging in the window. It doesn't have the iris or pupil; just a sort of cabochon shape. Also, I have a Witch's Ball, about which there are many beliefs, but one says it repels the evil eye. I have also read that there is a connection between Wayland the Smith and lucky horseshoes, and that farriers were entitled to hang a horseshoe the opposite way from other folks, but I couldn't look this up, just now. Good old Wikipedia has entries on Wayland the Smith, evil eye, and witch's ball. This is my first answer here; I hope to do better in the future!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7172" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1701" RevisionGUID="efe2c597-c2d7-4b25-b084-6c5d498b6881" CreationDate="2016-06-05T05:24:03.707" UserId="14" Text="One of the most well-known features of Hindu time-scales is the cycle of four Yugas, known as Satya, Treta, Dwapara, and Kali.  In the Satya (aka Krita) Yuga, almost all humans are good.  In the Treta Yuga, most humans are good but some are bad.  It's during one of the past Treta Yugas that the Hindu epic the Ramayana took place.  In the Dwapara Yuga, most humans are bad but some are good.  The Hindu epic the Mahabharata took place in the most recent  Dwapara Yuga.  And finally, we have the Kali Yuga, the age of evil we're currently living in, where almost all humans are bad.  The present Kali Yuga will end when Kalki, whom I discuss here, comes and annihilates the evil people, and then the Satya Yuga will begin again.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now many cultures and ideologies idolize an imagined past in order to explain or criticize the world of the present.  So my question is, have any Indologists theorized that the Kali Yuga was invented in the Kali Yuga?  That is to say, have they theorized that the system of the four Yugas was invented at a certain point in time, that that point in time was declared to be part of the &quot;Kali Yuga&quot;, and Hindus have been considering themselves to be in the Kali Yuga ever since?  Or is the consensus of Indologists that there was a time in history when Hindus considered themselves to be living in some Yuga other than the Kali Yuga?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have come across Indologists who have advanced a slightly less bold thesis.  Most Hindu scriptures, including the Mahabharata and the Puranas, are believed to have been composed in the Dwapara Yuga.  So their discussion of the Kali Yuga take the form of prophecy, describing things like the mixing of castes, the abandoning of Vedic Dharma, and the invasion of India by Mlecchas or foreigners.  I have seen Indologists argue that such descriptions are not actual prophecies, but rather &quot;retroactive prophecies&quot; written by people who were describing the actual state of the society they were living in, and the faults they found with it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But are any Indologists willing to go one step further, and say that the very concept of the Kali Yuga was invented by people to diagnose why their society fell short of the ideas of Vedic society?  I suppose one piece of evidence they could use is that the Yuga system is seldom mentioned in the Vedas, and is mainly mentioned in later texts like the Puranas.  And also there is a verse, widely believed to be spurious, in the Brahma Vaivarta Purana which says certain Vedic practices like animal sacrifice and Niyoga (which I discuss [here](http://hinduism.stackexchange.com/a/7628/36)) were allowed in earlier Yugas but are prohibited in the Kali Yuga.  This could be seen as an indication that people were accustomed to using the concept of Yugas to relegate aspects of Hinduism they didn't like to an earlier age whose customs are no longer relevant to the world as it is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that I'm a devout Hindu and a strong believer in the Yuga system; I'm just curious as to what secular scholarship has to say on this subject.  I'm a  [Hinduism Stackexchange](http://hinduism.stackexchange.com) moderator, but I'm posting the question here because I don't want people there mistakenly thinking that I'm casting doubt on the Yuga system." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7173" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1701" RevisionGUID="efe2c597-c2d7-4b25-b084-6c5d498b6881" CreationDate="2016-06-05T05:24:03.707" UserId="14" Text="Was the Kali Yuga invented in the Kali Yuga?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7174" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1701" RevisionGUID="efe2c597-c2d7-4b25-b084-6c5d498b6881" CreationDate="2016-06-05T05:24:03.707" UserId="14" Text="|hindu|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7175" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1701" RevisionGUID="5541063b-2ff8-477e-a373-569f1517d422" CreationDate="2016-06-05T05:29:32.473" UserId="14" Comment="added 9 characters in body" Text="One of the most well-known features of Hindu time-scales is the cycle of four Yugas, known as Satya, Treta, Dwapara, and Kali.  In the Satya (aka Krita) Yuga, almost all humans are good.  In the Treta Yuga, most humans are good but some are bad.  It's during one of the past Treta Yugas that the Hindu epic the Ramayana took place.  In the Dwapara Yuga, most humans are bad but some are good.  The Hindu epic the Mahabharata took place in the most recent  Dwapara Yuga.  And finally, we have the Kali Yuga, the age of evil we're currently living in, where almost all humans are bad.  The present Kali Yuga will end when Kalki, whom I discuss here, comes and annihilates the evil people, and then the Satya Yuga will begin again.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now many cultures and ideologies idolize an imagined past in order to explain or criticize the world of the present.  So my question is, have any Indologists theorized that the Kali Yuga was invented in the Kali Yuga?  That is to say, have they theorized that the system of the four Yugas was invented at a certain point in time, that that point in time was declared to be part of the &quot;Kali Yuga&quot;, and Hindus have been considering themselves to be in the Kali Yuga ever since?  Or is the consensus of Indologists that there was a time in history when Hindus considered themselves to be living in some Yuga other than the Kali Yuga?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have come across Indologists who have advanced a slightly less bold thesis.  Most Hindu scriptures, including the Mahabharata and the Puranas, are believed to have been composed in the Dwapara Yuga.  So their discussion of the Kali Yuga take the form of prophecy, describing things like the mixing of castes, the abandoning of Vedic Dharma, and the invasion of India by Mlecchas or foreigners.  I have seen Indologists argue that such descriptions are not actual prophecies, but rather &quot;retroactive prophecies&quot; written by people who were describing the actual state of the society they were living in, and the faults they found with it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But are any Indologists willing to go one step further, and say that the very concept of the Kali Yuga was invented by people to diagnose why their society fell short of the ideas of Vedic society?  I suppose one piece of evidence they could use is that the Yuga system is seldom mentioned in the Vedas, and is mainly mentioned in later texts like the Puranas.  And also there is a verse, widely believed to be spurious, in the Brahma Vaivarta Purana which says certain Vedic practices like animal sacrifice and Niyoga (which I discuss [here](http://hinduism.stackexchange.com/a/7628/36)) were allowed in earlier Yugas but are prohibited in the Kali Yuga.  This could be seen as an indication that people were accustomed to using the concept of Yugas to relegate aspects of Hinduism they didn't like to an earlier age whose customs are presumed no longer relevant to the world as it is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that I'm a devout Hindu and a strong believer in the Yuga system; I'm just curious as to what secular scholarship has to say on this subject.  I'm a  [Hinduism Stackexchange](http://hinduism.stackexchange.com) moderator, but I'm posting the question here because I don't want people there mistakenly thinking that I'm casting doubt on the Yuga system." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7176" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1702" RevisionGUID="834998a3-74a3-4cd8-9606-f6792aea18c8" CreationDate="2016-06-05T19:00:41.900" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="There have been a few questions about the [meaning of various welsh triads on this site][1]. However, I'm curious about how these triads were used by the Welsh. Were the triads similar to a collection of proverbs that would be referenced in daily life? Or were they, [as wikipedia suggests][2], solely used as a mnemonic device to remember longer versions of stories?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/welsh-triads&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Triads" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7177" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1702" RevisionGUID="834998a3-74a3-4cd8-9606-f6792aea18c8" CreationDate="2016-06-05T19:00:41.900" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="How were the Welsh Triads used by the Welsh?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7178" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1702" RevisionGUID="834998a3-74a3-4cd8-9606-f6792aea18c8" CreationDate="2016-06-05T19:00:41.900" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="|welsh-triads|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7180" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1701" RevisionGUID="f694ebb1-eeec-4187-ad58-0644238ba03e" CreationDate="2016-06-06T13:51:55.020" UserId="14" Comment="added 33 characters in body" Text="One of the most well-known features of Hindu time-scales is the cycle of four Yugas, known as Satya, Treta, Dwapara, and Kali.  In the Satya (aka Krita) Yuga, almost all humans are good.  In the Treta Yuga, most humans are good but some are bad.  It's during one of the past Treta Yugas that the Hindu epic the Ramayana took place.  In the Dwapara Yuga, most humans are bad but some are good.  The Hindu epic the Mahabharata took place in the most recent  Dwapara Yuga.  And finally, we have the Kali Yuga, the age of evil we're currently living in, where almost all humans are bad.  The present Kali Yuga will end when Kalki, whom I discuss here, comes and annihilates the evil people, and then the Satya Yuga will begin again.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now many cultures and ideologies idolize an imagined past in order to explain or criticize the world of the present.  So my question is, have any Indologists theorized that the Kali Yuga was invented in the Kali Yuga?  That is to say, have they theorized that the system of the four Yugas was invented at a certain point in time, that that point in time was declared to be part of the &quot;Kali Yuga&quot;, and Hindus have been considering themselves to be in the Kali Yuga ever since?  Or is the consensus of Indologists that there was a time in history when Hindus considered themselves to be living in some Yuga other than the Kali Yuga?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have come across Indologists who have advanced a slightly less bold thesis.  Most Hindu scriptures, including the Mahabharata and the Puranas, are believed to have been composed in the Dwapara Yuga.  So their discussion of the Kali Yuga take the form of prophecy, describing things like the mixing of castes, the abandoning of Vedic Dharma, and the invasion of India by Mlecchas or foreigners.  I have seen Indologists argue that such descriptions are not actual prophecies, but rather &quot;retroactive prophecies&quot; written by people who were describing the actual state of the society they were living in, and the faults they found with it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But are any Indologists willing to go one step further, and say that the very concept of the Kali Yuga was invented by people to diagnose why their society fell short of the ideas of Vedic society?  I suppose one piece of evidence they could use is that the Yuga system is seldom mentioned in the Vedas, and is mainly mentioned in later texts like the Puranas.  And also there is a verse, widely believed to be spurious, in the Brahma Vaivarta Purana which says certain Vedic practices like animal sacrifice and Niyoga (which I discuss [here](http://hinduism.stackexchange.com/a/7628/36)) were allowed in earlier Yugas but are prohibited in the Kali Yuga.  This could be seen as an indication that people were accustomed to using the concept of Yugas to relegate aspects of Hinduism they didn't like to an earlier age whose customs are presumed no longer relevant to the world as it is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that Ia, a devout Hindu and a strong believer in the Yuga system; I'm just posting this question because I'm curious as to what secular scholarship has to say on this subject.  I'm a [Hinduism Stackexchange](http://hinduism.stackexchange.com) moderator, but I'm posting the question here because I don't want people there mistakenly thinking that I'm casting doubt on the Yuga system." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7182" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1702" RevisionGUID="a82c1694-9837-4aff-bbd7-f6f1d4733f01" CreationDate="2016-06-06T21:58:30.310" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 287 characters in body" Text="There have been a few questions about the [meaning of various welsh triads on this site][1]. However, I'm curious about how these triads were used by the Welsh. Were the triads similar to a collection of proverbs that would be referenced in daily life? Or were they, [as wikipedia suggests][2], solely used as a mnemonic device to remember longer versions of stories?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Just to clarify: it's less that I don't trust wikipedia (although I have a hard time believing that the triads were *solely* used as a mnemonic device), and more that I would like an answer that goes into a little bit more detail (the wikipedia only had one sentence about this topic).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/welsh-triads&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Triads" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7183" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1704" RevisionGUID="48ef7b9e-854f-4466-a5fa-cf4daacdeea8" CreationDate="2016-06-06T22:07:21.817" UserId="2652" Text="A friend of mine thinks that an aakor is a creature from the Greek mythology. When I search for &quot;aakor&quot;, I see a wiki based on a copyrighted series. I'm not sure if he's correct so I'm asking here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are aakors mythological or copyrighted?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7184" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1704" RevisionGUID="48ef7b9e-854f-4466-a5fa-cf4daacdeea8" CreationDate="2016-06-06T22:07:21.817" UserId="2652" Text="Are aakors mythological or copyrighted?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7185" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1704" RevisionGUID="48ef7b9e-854f-4466-a5fa-cf4daacdeea8" CreationDate="2016-06-06T22:07:21.817" UserId="2652" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7186" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1685" RevisionGUID="8fe1d7ea-cee8-46e2-a267-baf7fd5006ad" CreationDate="2016-06-07T02:11:37.307" UserId="1241" Comment="Fixed link." Text="**Yes**, [Phoebus Apollo][1] was the sun god during the time of [Augustine][2] at Rome.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The worship of Apollo was widespread not only in Greece but also throughout the ancient world. Shrines could be found in places from Egypt to Anatolia (now northwestern Turkey). The Romans built their first temple to Apollo (Phoebus) in 432  B  .  C  ., and he became a favorite Roman god. The Roman emperor Augustus was a devoted worshiper because the battle of Actium, in which he gained political supremacy, was fought near a temple of Apollo. - [Myths Encyclopedia.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But how do we reconcile the this with the Roman Cult of Mithras or the [Sol Invictus][3] of Rome?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Roman deity Mithras appears in the historical record in the late 1st century A.D., and disappears from it in the late 4th century A.D. Unlike the major mythological figures of Graeco-Roman religion, such as Jupiter and Hercules, no ancient source preserves the mythology of the god. All of our information is therefore derived from depictions on monuments, and the limited mentions of the cult in literary sources. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;The temples of Mithras were always an underground cave, featuring a relief of Mithras killing the bull. This &quot;tauroctony&quot;, as it is known today, appears in the same format everywhere, but with minor variations. Other standard themes appear in the iconography. - [The Cult of Mithras][4] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Roman Emporer [Aurelian][5] made the Cult of the Invincible Sun official only in 274:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Roman gens Aurelia was associated with the cult of Sol. After his victories in the East, the emperor Aurelian introduced an official cult of Sol Invictus, making the sun-god the premier divinity of the empire, and wearing his radiated crown himself. He founded a college of pontifices, and dedicated a temple to Sol Invictus in 274. It is possible that he created the festival called dies natalis Solis Invicti, &quot;birthday of the undefeated Sun&quot;, which is recorded in 354 (in the Chronography of 354) as celebrated on the 25th December; (7) but no earlier reference to it exists. The cult of Sol Invictius was the leading official cult of the fourth century.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;In the legions, where a policy of individual religious freedom is attested by personal inscriptions, on shrines and through votive offerings in every part of the Empire, outside the camps themselves, the only Eastern cult that was officially tolerated, probably from Aurelian's reign, and certainly under Constantine, was that of Sol Invictus. - [Sol Invictus][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Cult of Mithras thus came into being after Augustine and became obsolete in or around the 4th century BC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Am-Ar/Apollo.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Invictus&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/mithras/display.php?page=main&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurelian" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7187" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1705" RevisionGUID="591be2f9-cd57-4e76-b46a-d2f51c6165c5" CreationDate="2016-06-07T15:46:51.953" UserId="42" Text="I can find nothing to suggest the term &quot;aakor&quot; is any older than the role-playing book you've already seen.  I think it would be safe to conclude they made up the name (I don't know if the name is *copyrighted*, per se).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as a winged wolf in Greek mythology, none to speak of.  You can find an artifact of the Scythian steppe nomads, though:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Scythian gold plate depicting a winged wolf][1]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(A couple other sources do refer to this as being a depiction of a winged wolf:  [here][3] and [here][4], if you have trouble being quite sure of what, exactly, is depicted here, as I do)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Scythians were certainly not Greeks, but they were concurrent with and known to the Classical Greeks, so not as far flung as it could be, I suppose.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/M7zAt.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://archive.org/stream/scythiansgreekss00minn#page/278/mode/2up&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/3248869?loggedin=true&amp;seq=19#page_scan_tab_contents&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://books.google.com/books?id=S9InU-GPNAMC&amp;pg=PA50&amp;lpg=PA50#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7188" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1706" RevisionGUID="a4bd91d6-cfc2-4930-ab65-22659fe9fee1" CreationDate="2016-06-07T16:07:40.527" UserId="42" Text="As a follow-up to this question:  http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1681/why-was-dissection-taboo-in-greek-antiquity&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So with such strong taboos against it, how was Herophilos able to perform systematic,, scientific dissections of human cadavers?  What changed in Greek society to allow this to occur?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7189" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1706" RevisionGUID="a4bd91d6-cfc2-4930-ab65-22659fe9fee1" CreationDate="2016-06-07T16:07:40.527" UserId="42" Text="What changed in Greek culture to allow Herophilos to perform human dissections" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7190" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1706" RevisionGUID="a4bd91d6-cfc2-4930-ab65-22659fe9fee1" CreationDate="2016-06-07T16:07:40.527" UserId="42" Text="|greek|medicine|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7191" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1707" RevisionGUID="82ac3ea9-78a8-43b6-a4f1-b37318eb3147" CreationDate="2016-06-07T16:33:33.120" UserId="42" Text="Again, this paper will provide the answer:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[&quot;The discovery of the body: human dissection and its cultural contexts in ancient Greece.&quot;](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2589595/), by H. van Staden, Yale Journal of Biology and Medicine.  1992 May-Jun; 65(3): 223–241&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The main thrust of it is:  Greek society didn't change.  Most Greeks likely would have found his work mortifying.  After Herophilus and Erasistratus, human dissection again became absent from *all* subsequent Greek science.  However, a unique set of circumstances were at work in Herophilos's home of Alexandria.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the key elements: Ptolemaic Egypt (and thus Alexandria), was *not* democratic:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Alexandria, a scientist's fellow-residents could not vote to ostracize of exile him on grounds of impiety, as they could--and did--in &quot;democratic&quot; Athens&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further, the Ptolemies, wanted to establish Alexandria as a center of learning, and so extended generous patronage to scientists and scholars.  It was the kings who, not only allowed Herophilos and Erasistratus to pursue cadaver dissection, but also handed over condemned criminals for *vivisectory* experiments.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Ptolmies also had little respect for the Greek taboos of the time, and may have set examples of violating them, themselves:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Moreover, Alexandria was a new frontier city in which traditional Greek values were not considered intrinsically superior.  Indeed, the Ptolemies themselves set examples--shocking to some Alexandrian Greeks--of violating traditional Greek taboos...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, the philosophical climate may have contributed making it more acceptable, particularly Aristotelian thought, who spoke specifically on the subject of the corpse:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is clear that a corpse is a human being *in name only*...  &#xD;&#xA;Even though a dead person also has the same external form and shape, it nevertheless is not a human being...  &#xD;&#xA;So too the &quot;hand&quot; of a person who has died is a hand *in name only*, just as flutes in a stone sculpture might also be called &quot;flutes&quot;..." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7192" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1707" RevisionGUID="82d81676-a129-4b08-8829-fd48091c2edc" CreationDate="2016-06-07T16:39:52.310" UserId="42" Comment="added 38 characters in body" Text="Again, this paper will provide the answer:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[&quot;The discovery of the body: human dissection and its cultural contexts in ancient Greece.&quot;](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2589595/), by H. van Staden, Yale Journal of Biology and Medicine.  1992 May-Jun; 65(3): 223–241&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The main thrust of it is:  Greek society didn't change.  Most Greeks likely would have found his work mortifying.  After Herophilus and Erasistratus, human dissection again became absent from *all* subsequent Greek science, not to resurface for some 1700 years (in 14th century Italy).  However, a unique set of circumstances were at work in Herophilos's home of Alexandria.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the key elements: Ptolemaic Egypt (and thus Alexandria), was *not* democratic:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Alexandria, a scientist's fellow-residents could not vote to ostracize of exile him on grounds of impiety, as they could--and did--in &quot;democratic&quot; Athens&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further, the Ptolemies, wanted to establish Alexandria as a center of learning, and so extended generous patronage to scientists and scholars.  It was the kings who, not only allowed Herophilos and Erasistratus to pursue cadaver dissection, but also handed over condemned criminals for *vivisectory* experiments.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Ptolmies also had little respect for the Greek taboos of the time, and may have set examples of violating them, themselves:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Moreover, Alexandria was a new frontier city in which traditional Greek values were not considered intrinsically superior.  Indeed, the Ptolemies themselves set examples--shocking to some Alexandrian Greeks--of violating traditional Greek taboos...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, the philosophical climate may have contributed making it more acceptable, particularly Aristotelian thought, who spoke specifically on the subject of the corpse:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is clear that a corpse is a human being *in name only*...  &#xD;&#xA;Even though a dead person also has the same external form and shape, it nevertheless is not a human being...  &#xD;&#xA;So too the &quot;hand&quot; of a person who has died is a hand *in name only*, just as flutes in a stone sculpture might also be called &quot;flutes&quot;..." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7193" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1707" RevisionGUID="fa380c43-0101-44ca-abe8-2232099247f2" CreationDate="2016-06-07T16:49:34.243" UserId="42" Comment="added 13 characters in body" Text="Again, this paper will provide the answer:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[&quot;The discovery of the body: human dissection and its cultural contexts in ancient Greece.&quot;](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2589595/), by H. van Staden, Yale Journal of Biology and Medicine.  1992 May-Jun; 65(3): 223–241&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The main thrust of it is:  Greek society, as a whole, didn't change.  Most Greeks likely would have found his work mortifying.  After Herophilus and Erasistratus, human dissection again became absent from *all* subsequent Greek science, not to resurface for some 1700 years (in 14th century Italy).  However, a unique set of circumstances were at work in Herophilos's home of Alexandria.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the key elements: Ptolemaic Egypt (and thus Alexandria), was *not* democratic:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Alexandria, a scientist's fellow-residents could not vote to ostracize of exile him on grounds of impiety, as they could--and did--in &quot;democratic&quot; Athens&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further, the Ptolemies, wanted to establish Alexandria as a center of learning, and so extended generous patronage to scientists and scholars.  It was the kings who, not only allowed Herophilos and Erasistratus to pursue cadaver dissection, but also handed over condemned criminals for *vivisectory* experiments.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Ptolmies also had little respect for the Greek taboos of the time, and may have set examples of violating them, themselves:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Moreover, Alexandria was a new frontier city in which traditional Greek values were not considered intrinsically superior.  Indeed, the Ptolemies themselves set examples--shocking to some Alexandrian Greeks--of violating traditional Greek taboos...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, the philosophical climate may have contributed making it more acceptable, particularly Aristotelian thought, who spoke specifically on the subject of the corpse:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is clear that a corpse is a human being *in name only*...  &#xD;&#xA;Even though a dead person also has the same external form and shape, it nevertheless is not a human being...  &#xD;&#xA;So too the &quot;hand&quot; of a person who has died is a hand *in name only*, just as flutes in a stone sculpture might also be called &quot;flutes&quot;..." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7194" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1708" RevisionGUID="e93ce089-a613-486f-9300-a3dd89a7516c" CreationDate="2016-06-07T19:36:09.240" UserId="1016" Text="One of the most popular creatures of mythology are marine humanoids.  We have the mers--part human, part fish--the cecaeliae--part human, part cephalopod--and the selkies, part human, part seal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there OTHER human/marine-animal hybrids in mythology around the world?  If so, which animals have been crossed with the human halves?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7195" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1708" RevisionGUID="e93ce089-a613-486f-9300-a3dd89a7516c" CreationDate="2016-06-07T19:36:09.240" UserId="1016" Text="Marine Human Hybrids" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7196" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1708" RevisionGUID="e93ce089-a613-486f-9300-a3dd89a7516c" CreationDate="2016-06-07T19:36:09.240" UserId="1016" Text="|mythical-creatures|animals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7197" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1708" RevisionGUID="c7968e95-89f4-4a90-8a2e-8bf486bf7420" CreationDate="2016-06-07T21:06:39.810" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7198" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1708" RevisionGUID="621f622e-2985-43e8-9431-156808c3bd38" CreationDate="2016-06-08T13:42:38.780" UserId="1016" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|animals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7200" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1709" RevisionGUID="9936d64a-3339-4935-82c8-7c64b85baa8f" CreationDate="2016-06-08T22:26:47.593" UserId="967" Text="Argus has 100 eyes, 50 awake and 5 sleeping all the time. That way, he would be able to keep guard constantly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But would Argus's eyes have a set time to fall asleep, like 50 immediately going to sleep and 50 immediately coming awake? Or would he have one eye going, right as another would come awake?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7201" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1709" RevisionGUID="9936d64a-3339-4935-82c8-7c64b85baa8f" CreationDate="2016-06-08T22:26:47.593" UserId="967" Text="Were Argus's eyes gradual or all at once?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7202" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1709" RevisionGUID="9936d64a-3339-4935-82c8-7c64b85baa8f" CreationDate="2016-06-08T22:26:47.593" UserId="967" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7203" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1708" RevisionGUID="15dc7fba-9cce-4388-be9f-781e20401c2e" CreationDate="2016-06-09T00:21:33.333" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="the animal tag refers to normal animals, not human-animal hybrids" Text="In my experience, one of the most popular types of creatures in mythology are marine humanoids.  We have the mers--part human, part fish--the cecaeliae--part human, part cephalopod--and the selkies, part human, part seal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there other human/marine-animal hybrids in mythology around the world?  If so, which animals have been crossed with the humans?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7204" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1708" RevisionGUID="15dc7fba-9cce-4388-be9f-781e20401c2e" CreationDate="2016-06-09T00:21:33.333" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="the animal tag refers to normal animals, not human-animal hybrids" Text="|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7205" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1710" RevisionGUID="569fff00-b218-4d5e-8e40-aac0ace68dfd" CreationDate="2016-06-09T01:21:26.487" UserId="967" Text="#Greek at least, which is my &quot;expertise&quot;,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I guess the [Ichthyocentuars][1] counts (have fun pronouncing that one)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;a pair of centaurine sea-gods with the upper bodies of men, the lower fore-parts of horses, ending in the serpentine tails of fish. Their brows were adorned with a pair of lobster-claw horns. The two marine Kentauroi (Centaurs) were named Bythos (Sea-Depths) and Aphros (Sea-Foam)... and ... were probably regarded as wise teachers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They were fish-centaurs, and are part human, and are definitely hybrids. Don't know about the crossing part...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Glaucus][2], who is a surprise,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;He was described as a blue-skinned merman, with copper-green hair and a serpentine fish-tail in place of legs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A kind-of-merman, but not exactly. He's one of a kind. Human, and partly water-snake-fish.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Telekines][3], which are sea-dogs... (don't know if they count)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;four mysterious magician-smiths and sea daimones native to the islands of Keos and Rhodes. They invented the art of metal-working and were said to have crafted the sickle Kronos used to castrate his father Ouranos and later a magical trident for Poseidon which the god used to lever mountains into the sea and form the islands. Their malignant use of magic later angered Zeus, who cast them beneath the sea or into the very depths of Tartaros. These strange Sea Daimones were sometimes described with the heads of dogs and fish-flippers for hands.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm sure there are more, so feel free to edit. (make sure it's greek.)&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Ikhthyokentauroi.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Glaukos.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Telkhines.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7206" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1708" RevisionGUID="1717d5d4-522c-4d5d-89b2-6f4e85ee936d" CreationDate="2016-06-09T15:44:39.070" UserId="1016" Comment="deleted 12 characters in body" Text="One of the most popular types of creatures in mythology are marine humanoids.  We have the mers--part human, part fish--the cecaeliae--part human, part cephalopod--and the selkies, part human, part seal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there other human/marine-animal hybrids in mythology around the world?  If so, which animals have been crossed with the human halves?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7207" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1711" RevisionGUID="b9a49caf-7e83-4eb8-a9f3-0b780ede8de2" CreationDate="2016-06-10T01:42:36.537" UserId="292" Text="Britian, Ireland and the Scandinavian countries all feature forms of the nyx or nack, a [shapeshifting water spirit][1]. They often take [horse form][2], and can be men who lure women away as often as the more conventional female sirens. The men often take the form of fiddlers or other musicians, and you can learn their music if you approach them the right way. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Folklore for such creatures comes from many sources, but [this site][3] has some good primary sources. I found out about them first in Patrick Ford's article on the Irish myth of the [Well of Nechtan][4]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.mythicalcreaturesguide.com/page/Nixie&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neck_%28water_spirit%29&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/water.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://books.google.ca/books?id=gsTW-RedBx8C&amp;pg=PA67&amp;lpg=PA67&amp;dq=well%20of%20nechtan%20ford&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=GABVZbvR1p&amp;sig=80fWvfW7AZa0eaCdJRod-2eviyY&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjbhMulp5zNAhXQsh4KHTQfDOMQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7208" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1712" RevisionGUID="dd1f2c5e-8681-4bd5-8c73-22326cd65bd7" CreationDate="2016-06-10T02:29:46.643" UserId="2664" Text="In addition to the above, a God who dies can simply become a god of the dead.  In the Greek mythology, there's Persephone, in Norse there's Baldur.  (Note however, that both became secondary in the role, joining the prior &quot;birthright&quot; lords of the dead.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7210" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1713" RevisionGUID="89fc43e6-b87e-4af0-a89c-7657e7d2295f" CreationDate="2016-06-10T15:33:00.217" UserId="2669" Text="I learned that people put a big stone on their chimney in Norway to prevent from trolls and I am wondering about the myth behind this story. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7211" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1713" RevisionGUID="89fc43e6-b87e-4af0-a89c-7657e7d2295f" CreationDate="2016-06-10T15:33:00.217" UserId="2669" Text="Trolls in Norway" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7212" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1713" RevisionGUID="89fc43e6-b87e-4af0-a89c-7657e7d2295f" CreationDate="2016-06-10T15:33:00.217" UserId="2669" Text="|mythical-creatures|the-native-tales|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7213" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1714" RevisionGUID="a3b4cba1-c722-45a5-b402-97dd438c2fa0" CreationDate="2016-06-11T14:13:23.797" UserId="188" Text="How did the tone of Oedipus change with its retellings?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Darker? Or lighter? Or changing with each telling?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Darker would be more death, more suicide, more incest, etc, while lighter would be the opposite.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Such as Oedipus's kids being Jocasta's as well instead of from another wife would be darker." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7214" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1714" RevisionGUID="a3b4cba1-c722-45a5-b402-97dd438c2fa0" CreationDate="2016-06-11T14:13:23.797" UserId="188" Text="How did the tone of Oedipus change with its retellings?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7215" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1714" RevisionGUID="a3b4cba1-c722-45a5-b402-97dd438c2fa0" CreationDate="2016-06-11T14:13:23.797" UserId="188" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7216" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1715" RevisionGUID="b095fd3f-5b97-4cba-93e7-4126b8a6b803" CreationDate="2016-06-11T18:50:30.230" UserId="2673" Text="In the myth of Helen of Troy, there has been noted a story from Egyptian mythology of Helen coming to Egypt and staying there, her double being sent on to be imprisoned and have a war fought over. Does anyone know of any other mentions or references of this double? In Egyptian mythology, a soul has three parts, and it is not uncommon for one of those parts to be separated and create that double. A similar thing has been noted in Viking mythology, but I have not come across it in any Greek or Roman sources." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7217" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1715" RevisionGUID="b095fd3f-5b97-4cba-93e7-4126b8a6b803" CreationDate="2016-06-11T18:50:30.230" UserId="2673" Text="Was Helen of Troy in Egypt during the war?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7218" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1715" RevisionGUID="b095fd3f-5b97-4cba-93e7-4126b8a6b803" CreationDate="2016-06-11T18:50:30.230" UserId="2673" Text="|greek|comparative|myth-identification|egyptian|mythohistory|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7219" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1716" RevisionGUID="5f61a8a1-c362-4d68-9bdf-d53a81ddba26" CreationDate="2016-06-11T19:50:14.277" UserId="2674" Text="I know that the Egyptian (and therefore presumably Roman, since they incorporated those) gods had a rainbow of skin colors; and the Hindus have a really elaborate system of significant colors for gods and their avatars. And various black Madonnas (and sometimes Christ Children) are very popular venerations all over the Catholic world. But I'm looking for more examples, not only from Europe/Mediterranean/Near-East but from all over the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Given the wide varieties of forms that different peoples have given their gods, it wouldn't seem too unlikely that they'd conceive of a god with an &quot;exotic&quot; skin color. But how common has it really been? (None of the Norse gods, historical &quot;cousins&quot; of the Hindu for example, seem to have been given anything fancier than red hair.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7220" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1716" RevisionGUID="5f61a8a1-c362-4d68-9bdf-d53a81ddba26" CreationDate="2016-06-11T19:50:14.277" UserId="2674" Text="What humanoid gods have had skin colors other than that of the people who worship them?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7221" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1716" RevisionGUID="5f61a8a1-c362-4d68-9bdf-d53a81ddba26" CreationDate="2016-06-11T19:50:14.277" UserId="2674" Text="|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7222" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1717" RevisionGUID="d2932704-8aeb-4ff2-a963-3bc7a3f3b488" CreationDate="2016-06-11T23:39:51.427" UserId="1241" Text="Your question is something that comes out of a Doctor Who Series! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To start with, could The Egyptian **Sobek** be placed in the category of a marine human hybrid.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[Sobek][1] (also called Sebek, Sochet, Sobk, and Sobki), in Greek, Suchos (Σοῦχος) and from Latin Suchus, was an ancient Egyptian deity with a complex and (literally) fluid nature.[2] He is associated with the Nile crocodile and is either represented in its form or as a human with a crocodile head. Sobek was also associated with pharaonic power, fertility, and military prowess, but served additionally as a protective deity with apotropaic qualities, invoked particularly for protection against the dangers presented by the Nile river.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Sobek][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then there is [Triton][3]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;TRITON was a fish-tailed sea god, the son and herald of Poseidon, king of the seas. He stilled the waves with the blow of a conch-shell trumpet. Triton was also described as the god of the giant, Libyan, salt-lake Tritonis. When the Argonauts were stranded in the desert he assisted them in finding passage from the lake back to the sea.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Trtion was depicted in Greek vase painting as fish-tailed merman, sometimes bearded, sometimes youthful. In Greek sculpture and mosaic he was often given twin fish or dolphin tails. Mosaic art added a pair of crab-claw &quot;horns&quot;, green-tinged skin, and sometimes a pair of equine forelegs. As Poseidon's herald, he had a winged brow and conch-shell trumpet.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Triton was often multiplied into a host of sea-spirits called Tritones which were regarded as satyr-like daimones of the sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Triton][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then there is [Skylla][5]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;SKYLLA (or Scylla) was a monstrous sea goddess who haunted the rocks of certain narrow strait opposite the whirlpool daemon Kharybdis. Ships who sailed too close to her rocks would lose six men to her ravenous, darting heads.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Homer describes Skylla as a creature with twelve dangling feet, six long necks and grisly heads lined with a triple row of sharp teeth. Her voice was likened to the yelping of dogs. This description of Skylla is probably derived from the imagery of words associated with her name: namely, &quot;hermit-crab&quot; (Greek skyllaros), &quot;dog&quot; and &quot;dog-shark&quot; (skylax), and &quot;to rend&quot; (skyllô). In classical art she was depicted as a fish-tailed sea-goddess with a cluster of canine fore-parts surrounding her waist.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Late classical writers say that she was once a beautiful nymph who was loved by the sea-god Glaukos. She has a jealous rival in the witch Kirke who used her magics to transform Skylla into a monster. Older poets, however, imagined Skylla as a creature born monstrous.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Skylla][6]][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Phorkys][7] could also be added to this number.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;PHORCYS (Phorkys) An ancient crab-like Sea-God. He was the father and grandfather of most of the monsters of myth. &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;[![Phorkys][8]][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sobek&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/6yURF.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Triton.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/7akKg.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Skylla.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Q7VRM.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.theoi.com/Encyc_P.html&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/NcUhj.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7223" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1718" RevisionGUID="8141d807-1032-465e-b29a-c83357ec047e" CreationDate="2016-06-12T00:48:46.817" UserId="967" Text="Ah, well,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not a exact answer, as this is probably where you got it from, but, here goes!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;At least three Ancient Greek authors denied that Helen ever went to Troy; instead, they suggested, Helen stayed in Egypt during the duration of the Trojan War. Those three authors are Euripides, Stesichorus, and Herodotus. In the version put forth by Euripides in his play Helen, Hera fashioned a likeness of Helen (eidolon, εἴδωλον) out of clouds at Zeus' request, Hermes took her to Egypt, and Helen never went to Troy, spending the entire war in Egypt. Eidolon is also present in Stesichorus' account, but not in Herodotus' rationalizing version of the myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Herodotus adds weight to the &quot;Egyptian&quot; version of events by putting forward his own evidence—he traveled to Egypt and interviewed the priests of the temple (Foreign Aphrodite, ξείνης Ἀφροδίτης) at Memphis. According to these priests, Helen had arrived in Egypt shortly after leaving Sparta, because strong winds had blown Paris's ship off course. King Proteus of Egypt, appalled that Paris had seduced his host's wife and plundered his host's home in Sparta, disallowed Paris from taking Helen to Troy. Paris returned to Troy without a new bride, but the Greeks refused to believe that Helen was in Egypt and not within Troy's walls. Thus, Helen waited in Memphis for ten years, while the Greeks and the Trojans fought. Following the conclusion of the Trojan War, Menelaus sailed to Memphis, where Proteus reunited him with Helen.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_of_Troy&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So we see that some authors disagree, but a lot more do agree. I'll just give you Herodotus's account.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Herodotus's account][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Correcting Homer: Paris and Helen in Egypt&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Egyptian priests say Paris and Helen were blown off course on their way to Troy and shipwrecked near a shrine of Heracles in Egypt. The servants of Paris took refuge at the shrine and denounced him as a rapist to the local Egyptian official, Thonis. Thonis had Paris arrested and brought before King Proteus at Memphis (113-14). Proteus conducted an investigation and pronounced Alexander guilty; he kept Helen in Egypt and sent Paris home (115). Citations of Homer prove that he was aware of this version (116). This incidentally also proves that the Cypria, a poem of the Epic Cycle, is not by Homer (117). All this leads Hdt. to ask the Egyptian priests whether in their opinion the Trojan War really happened. Menelaus himself told their predecessors that it did, but that the Greeks only learned the truth, that Helen was in Egypt, after the fall of Troy (118). Menelaus went to Memphis to retrieve Helen and was well received by Proteus; but he later fled Egypt in disgrace after sacrificing two children to allay contrary winds (119). Hdt. believes this version and supports it with an argument from probability: if the Trojans had had Helen, they would surely have given her back rather than allow their entire city to be destroyed (120).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And, we see that Herodotus does give a account of Helen being on Egypt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.reed.edu/humanities/Hum110/Hdt/Hdt2.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7224" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1719" RevisionGUID="033c75b2-a68d-47a8-8a1c-35f5d18012fb" CreationDate="2016-06-12T12:33:39.357" UserId="201" Text="Theoi seems to have a &lt;a href=http://www.mythindex.com/greek-mythology/O/Oedipus.html&quot;&gt;listing of variants&lt;/a&gt;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; From this point traditions again differ, for according to some, Oedipus in his blindness was expelled from Thebes by his sons and brother-in-law, Creon, who undertook the government, and he was guided and accompanied by Antigone in his exile to Attica; but according to others he was imprisoned by his sons at Thebes, in order that his disgrace might remain concealed from the eyes of the world. The father now cursed his sons, who agreed to rule over Thebes alternately, but became involved in a dispute, in consequence of which they fought in single combat, and slew each other. Hereupon Creon succeeded to the throne, and expelled Oedipus. After long wanderings Oedipus arrived in the grove of the Eumenides, near Colonus, in Attica; he was there honoured by Theseus in his misfortune, and, according to an oracle, the Eumenides removed him from the earth, and no one was allowed to approach his tomb (Soph. Oed. Col. 1661, &amp;c.; Eurip. Phoen. init.; Apollod. iii. 5. § 9; Diod. iv. 64; Hygin. Fab. 67). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;According to Homer, Oedipus, tormented by the Erinnyes of his mother, continued to reign at Thebes after her death; he fell in battle, and was honoured at Thebes with funeral solemnities (Od. xi. 270, &amp;c., Il. xxiii. 679). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Some traditions mention Eurygeneia as the mother of the four children of Oedipus above-mentioned (Paus. ix. 5. § 5; Schol. ad Eurip. Phoen. 63), and previous to his connection with her, he is said to have been the father of Phrastor and Laonytus by Iocaste, and to have in the end married Astymedusa, a daughter of Sthenelus (Schol. ad Eurip. l. c.). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Oedipus himself is sometimes called a son of Laius by Eurycleia, and is said to have been thrown in a chest into the sea when yet an infant, to have been carried by the waves to the coast of Sicyon, to have been received by Polybus, and afterwards to have been blinded by him (Schol. ad Eur. Phoen. 13, 26). His tomb was shown at Athens, where he also had an heroum. (Paus. i. 28. § 7, 30, in fin.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7225" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1719" RevisionGUID="7a5078c5-5452-4102-92b4-a3ceddf92971" CreationDate="2016-06-12T12:42:23.317" UserId="967" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="Theoi seems to have a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.mythindex.com/greek-mythology/O/Oedipus.html&quot;&gt;listing of variants&lt;/a&gt;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; From this point traditions again differ, for according to some, Oedipus in his blindness was expelled from Thebes by his sons and brother-in-law, Creon, who undertook the government, and he was guided and accompanied by Antigone in his exile to Attica; but according to others he was imprisoned by his sons at Thebes, in order that his disgrace might remain concealed from the eyes of the world. The father now cursed his sons, who agreed to rule over Thebes alternately, but became involved in a dispute, in consequence of which they fought in single combat, and slew each other. Hereupon Creon succeeded to the throne, and expelled Oedipus. After long wanderings Oedipus arrived in the grove of the Eumenides, near Colonus, in Attica; he was there honoured by Theseus in his misfortune, and, according to an oracle, the Eumenides removed him from the earth, and no one was allowed to approach his tomb (Soph. Oed. Col. 1661, &amp;c.; Eurip. Phoen. init.; Apollod. iii. 5. § 9; Diod. iv. 64; Hygin. Fab. 67). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;According to Homer, Oedipus, tormented by the Erinnyes of his mother, continued to reign at Thebes after her death; he fell in battle, and was honoured at Thebes with funeral solemnities (Od. xi. 270, &amp;c., Il. xxiii. 679). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Some traditions mention Eurygeneia as the mother of the four children of Oedipus above-mentioned (Paus. ix. 5. § 5; Schol. ad Eurip. Phoen. 63), and previous to his connection with her, he is said to have been the father of Phrastor and Laonytus by Iocaste, and to have in the end married Astymedusa, a daughter of Sthenelus (Schol. ad Eurip. l. c.). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Oedipus himself is sometimes called a son of Laius by Eurycleia, and is said to have been thrown in a chest into the sea when yet an infant, to have been carried by the waves to the coast of Sicyon, to have been received by Polybus, and afterwards to have been blinded by him (Schol. ad Eur. Phoen. 13, 26). His tomb was shown at Athens, where he also had an heroum. (Paus. i. 28. § 7, 30, in fin.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7226" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1720" RevisionGUID="c2594e23-218f-49c8-b1b2-67aa77ba9be2" CreationDate="2016-06-12T15:06:45.217" UserId="42" Text="I don't know that this is the origin of the practice, but the story of Butterball (Smørbukk) makes reference to Trolls being defeated using a large stone placed on a chimney:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And when that was done, he scrambled up over the door, dragging the pine root and the stone with him, and one he placed over the door and the other on the Troll's chimney pipe.  &#xD;&#xA;...  &#xD;&#xA;But when they got to the door, Butterball threw the pine root and the stone at their heads and killed them all.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can read the whole story here:  [Norwegian Folk Tales, by Peter Christen Asbjørnsen, pgs 52-56](https://books.google.com/books?id=07V7BAAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT52#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7232" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1715" RevisionGUID="963db006-8fad-45de-be09-8a4b0e211c6d" CreationDate="2016-06-13T09:18:01.283" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|egyptian|homer|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7234" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1707" RevisionGUID="54532e12-e1e6-474c-a86d-c1c4841774cb" CreationDate="2016-06-13T16:53:31.387" UserId="42" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body" Text="Again, this paper provide's the answer:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[&quot;The discovery of the body: human dissection and its cultural contexts in ancient Greece.&quot;](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2589595/), by H. van Staden, Yale Journal of Biology and Medicine.  1992 May-Jun; 65(3): 223–241&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The main thrust of it is:  Greek society, as a whole, didn't change.  Most Greeks likely would have found his work mortifying.  After Herophilus and Erasistratus, human dissection again became absent from *all* subsequent Greek science, not to resurface for some 1700 years (in 14th century Italy).  However, a unique set of circumstances were at work in Herophilos's home of Alexandria.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the key elements: Ptolemaic Egypt (and thus Alexandria), was *not* democratic:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Alexandria, a scientist's fellow-residents could not vote to ostracize or exile him on grounds of impiety, as they could--and did--in &quot;democratic&quot; Athens&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further, the Ptolemies, wanted to establish Alexandria as a center of learning, and so extended generous patronage to scientists and scholars.  It was the kings who, not only allowed Herophilos and Erasistratus to pursue cadaver dissection, but also handed over condemned criminals for *vivisectory* experiments.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Ptolmies also had little respect for the Greek taboos of the time, and may have set examples of violating them, themselves:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Moreover, Alexandria was a new frontier city in which traditional Greek values were not considered intrinsically superior.  Indeed, the Ptolemies themselves set examples--shocking to some Alexandrian Greeks--of violating traditional Greek taboos...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, the philosophical climate may have contributed making it more acceptable, particularly Aristotelian thought, who spoke specifically on the subject of the corpse:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is clear that a corpse is a human being *in name only*...  &#xD;&#xA;Even though a dead person also has the same external form and shape, it nevertheless is not a human being...  &#xD;&#xA;So too the &quot;hand&quot; of a person who has died is a hand *in name only*, just as flutes in a stone sculpture might also be called &quot;flutes&quot;..." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7235" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1706" RevisionGUID="fbb763c4-68d9-4669-a10d-d281ef58a58b" CreationDate="2016-06-13T16:55:05.317" UserId="42" Comment="added 35 characters in body" Text="This is a follow-up to this question:  http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1681/why-was-dissection-taboo-in-greek-antiquity&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With such strong taboos against it (addressed in the above question), how was Herophilos able to perform systematic, scientific dissections of human cadavers?  What changed in Greek society to allow this to occur?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7236" PostHistoryTypeId="36" PostId="1722" RevisionGUID="465d05a8-a605-4304-a2eb-8af1c3c478f0" CreationDate="2016-06-14T08:52:29.423" UserId="-1" Comment="from http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/131818/who-was-the-goddess-pregnant-with-zeus-child-or-children-denied-sanctuary-and" />
  <row Id="7237" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1722" RevisionGUID="2abc735f-da66-4a23-a1e1-d3d14e3cae71" CreationDate="2016-06-14T03:44:04.690" UserId="2690" UserDisplayName="Fey Ray" Text=" A certain goddess, having been impregnated by Zeus, was driven from her home by the ever angry Hera, and forced to flee, with her children or child, unsure. Everywhere she went she was rejected in fear of Hera's wrath. At one notable place she stopped to rest and some rude men drove her away. A god or goddess saw this and changed them into frogs." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7238" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1722" RevisionGUID="2abc735f-da66-4a23-a1e1-d3d14e3cae71" CreationDate="2016-06-14T03:44:04.690" UserId="2690" UserDisplayName="Fey Ray" Text="Who was the goddess, pregnant with Zeus' child or children denied sanctuary and the results?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7239" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1722" RevisionGUID="2abc735f-da66-4a23-a1e1-d3d14e3cae71" CreationDate="2016-06-14T03:44:04.690" UserId="2690" UserDisplayName="Fey Ray" Text="|untagged|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7240" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1723" RevisionGUID="10b320ab-1e48-4ba9-b715-478ee25774ed" CreationDate="2016-06-14T09:06:37.433" UserId="2687" Text="Latona&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to this [story][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  The goddess approached, and kneeling on the bank would have slaked&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her thirst in the cool stream, but the **rustics** forbade her.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When the people reject her, Latona turns them into frogs:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Latona was so angry that she ceased to mind her thirst. She no longer&#xD;&#xA;&gt; supplicated the clowns, but lifting her hands to heaven exclaimed,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “May they never quit that pool, but pass their lives there!” And it&#xD;&#xA;&gt; came to pass accordingly. They now live in the water, sometimes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; totally submerged, then raising their heads above the surface or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; swimming upon it. Sometimes they come out upon the bank, but soon leap&#xD;&#xA;&gt; back again into the water. They still use their base voices in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; railing, and though they have the water all to themselves, are not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ashamed to croak in the midst of it. Their voices are harsh, their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; throats bloated, their mouths have become stretched by constant&#xD;&#xA;&gt; railing, their necks have shrunk up and disappeared, and their heads&#xD;&#xA;&gt; are joined to their bodies. **Their backs are green, their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; disproportioned bellies white, and in short they are now frogs, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dwell in the slimy pool.**”’&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Latona is the Latin version of the goddess Leto, famous as the mother of Artemis and Apollo. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As [Wikipedia][2] says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Roman mythology, Leto's equivalent is Latona, a Latinization of her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; name, influenced by Etruscan Letun. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.bartleby.com/181/043.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leto" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7241" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1722" RevisionGUID="f427c602-5a28-4c35-96a5-3643606b82de" CreationDate="2016-06-14T09:48:34.650" UserId="2687" Comment="retagged, made more clear" Text=" A certain goddess, having been impregnated by Zeus, was driven from her home by the ever-angry Hera, and forced to flee, with her children or child, unsure. Everywhere she went she was rejected in fear of Hera's wrath. At one notable place she stopped to rest and some rude men drove her away. A god or goddess saw this and changed them into frogs.       " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7242" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1722" RevisionGUID="f427c602-5a28-4c35-96a5-3643606b82de" CreationDate="2016-06-14T09:48:34.650" UserId="2687" Comment="retagged, made more clear" Text="Who was the goddess, pregnant with Zeus' child or children, who was denied sanctuary?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7243" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1722" RevisionGUID="f427c602-5a28-4c35-96a5-3643606b82de" CreationDate="2016-06-14T09:48:34.650" UserId="2687" Comment="retagged, made more clear" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7244" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1722" RevisionGUID="f427c602-5a28-4c35-96a5-3643606b82de" CreationDate="2016-06-14T09:48:34.650" Comment="Proposed by 2687 approved by 57 edit id of 323" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7245" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1722" RevisionGUID="6f6127ff-f917-468b-81ac-672ab9de6e65" CreationDate="2016-06-14T09:49:38.077" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|myth-identification|zeus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7246" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1724" RevisionGUID="78ead3c4-d918-400b-a685-341104c22123" CreationDate="2016-06-14T14:42:04.587" UserId="2682" Text="In Greek mythology the story of the birth of the god Hermes makes it sound he was originally mortal and that he somehow managed to bribe his way into becoming the twelfth [i.e. the last] of the Twelve Olympians, after appeasing his half-brother Apollon (Apollo) with a musical instrument, and sacrificing some of the cattle he had stolen from the same Apollon to the other eleven Olympians and to himself(!).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hermes' mother Maia was a daughter of the Titan Atlas. By some of this Titan's other daughters Zeus and Poseidon also had other sons, who all seem to have been born mortal. So there must have been something special about Maia herself or Hermes was at birth a mortal just like his half-brothers and cousins, and his father granted him immortality after he performed his amazing feats of theft on his first birthday.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the _Homeric Hymn to Hermes_, Apollon threatens to cast the baby Hermes into Tartaros &quot;to rule over the little folk there,&quot; a threat which no other god but Zeus ever seems to make to any other person in Greek myth. Is this an indication of Hermes' mortality at this point?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7247" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1724" RevisionGUID="78ead3c4-d918-400b-a685-341104c22123" CreationDate="2016-06-14T14:42:04.587" UserId="2682" Text="Was Hermes originally mortal?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7248" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1724" RevisionGUID="78ead3c4-d918-400b-a685-341104c22123" CreationDate="2016-06-14T14:42:04.587" UserId="2682" Text="|underworld|sacrifice|immortality|apollo|hermes|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7249" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1725" RevisionGUID="1c2decfb-4de0-4fb6-aa6e-4a4f208f5c97" CreationDate="2016-06-14T15:37:26.197" UserId="2682" Text="He is referred to as a god in the Nibelungenlied and the Völsungasaga. In the Eddas he is generally referred to as an Ás, i.e., one of the gods called the Æsir. An example of this is in the Gylfaginning, from the Prose Edda, in which appears also the most explicit reference to anything Jötunn [Giant] about him. He and his two brothers Býleipt (or Býleist) and Helblindi are therein said to be the sons of a Jötunn named Fárbauti, while their mother is a certain Laufey, who is also called Nál. We are not told much about Laufey beyond the idea that the reason she was called Nál, &quot;Needle,&quot; is because she was &quot;slender and weak&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is possible that Loki has similar origins to most of the other Æsir, who, like Óðinn and Þórr (Thor), are at least half-Jötunn, since the mothers of these gods were giantesses. Because Loki was among the treaty-makers who commingled their blood to become sworn brethren when the gods were making this pact, he became a member of this group, all of whom were considered to be Æsir from then on, whatever their nature or origins, as Vanir (a tribe/race of deities which for a time were the Æsir's rivals) or Jötnar [plural of *Jötunn*].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Loki's shadowy origins also make it difficult to ascertain whether he was initially pure Jötunn or not. We know nothing about his brothers apart from their names, so they do not help clear this issue up. Their parents are a bit of a puzzle themselves. In a late document called *Sörla þáttr eða Heðins saga ok Högna* (&quot;The Tale of Sörli, or of Heðin and Högni&quot;), the Jötunn Fárbauti is described as though he is merely a man, and an old one at that, at the time that he sires Loki. Elsewhere he is said to have impregnated Laufey with Loki by striking her with a bolt of lightning. Could this be a euphemism for a sexual assault? And were Býleipt and Helblindi conceived in the same way?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is sometimes said that Loki was a cousin of Óðinn (Odin) and that this was the reason that Óðinn had to accept him among the Æsir. If this is the case then it means that one of Loki's parents could have been a sibling of Óðinn's mother Bestla, herself one of the frost giants. At any rate, John Lindow has an interesting insight on the issue of Loki's nature in his *Norse Mythology: A Guide to the Gods, Heroes, Rituals and Beliefs*, in which he says the following in his article on Loki's mother Laufey:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; What is most striking about Laufey is that we always read of Loki&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Laufeyjarson and never of Loki Fárbautason ... There were no last&#xD;&#xA;&gt; names in old Scandinavia ... One had a given name and a patronymic,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; except in those rare cases when the father was unknown or unsavory, in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which case one had a matronymic. The fact that his father Fárbauti was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a giant was presumably something that Loki—and Odin—would rather not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; be reminded of, especially since in this mythology kinship is reckoned&#xD;&#xA;&gt; exclusively through male lines. (Consider the fact that Odin has a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; giant mother and sex with giantesses is one of his weapons.) Was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Laufey, then, a goddess? She is listed with goddesses in one of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thulur, and having a goddess mother might have been what enabled Loki&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to be &quot;enumerated among the æsir,&quot; as Snorri puts it in Gylfaginning.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; If Laufey was a goddess, then Loki's genealogy as offspring of a giant&#xD;&#xA;&gt; father and a goddess mother would be the same as that of his children&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with Angrboda, namely the Midgard serpent, Fenrir the wolf, and Hel,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; all great enemies of the gods, and this might explain his ultimate&#xD;&#xA;&gt; allegiance." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7250" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="32" RevisionGUID="5275a01c-b506-4418-8d82-7f8e07cf2ce1" CreationDate="2016-06-14T20:58:45.457" UserId="967" Comment="tense" Text="Eclipses were probably one of the phenomena that puzzled the ancient people. How was it explained in Egyptian mythology, and were there any gods connected with it (like thunder is connected to Zeus)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7251" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="89" RevisionGUID="b31525aa-4bda-43b2-a4d6-748e0e744f59" CreationDate="2016-06-14T20:59:56.520" UserId="967" Comment="edited title" Text="Can a werewolf be killed by any silver weapon or must it be the high velocity of a a bullet?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7252" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="93" RevisionGUID="0c5a7b29-9ae8-4ed8-829f-e343bf708ef4" CreationDate="2016-06-14T21:01:49.107" UserId="967" Comment="added 12 characters in body" Text="Many systems of myth have a mythological explanation for how mankind came to possess fire (the most famous, at least in Western Civilization, is probably that of how Prometheus stole fire). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How does the mythology of the Native Americans of the Pacific Northwest describe humankind's acquisition of the ability to create fire?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7254" PostHistoryTypeId="7" PostId="89" RevisionGUID="ca6ac164-ea67-46ee-94c0-e85c4d8424dd" CreationDate="2016-06-14T22:18:22.507" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="Rollback to [b0079c77-da2a-4328-9ac5-3a6407c776a7]" Text="Can a werewolf be killed by any silver weapon or must it be a bullet?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7256" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1725" RevisionGUID="60d0eae0-f7b8-4371-a6c7-f84aaf40a59f" CreationDate="2016-06-15T03:03:30.287" UserId="2682" Comment="Clarification on origin of answer" Text="*I have slightly modified the following from a Yahoo! Answers questions I answered sometime ago.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He is referred to as a god in the Nibelungenlied and the Völsungasaga. In the Eddas he is generally referred to as an Ás, i.e., one of the gods called the Æsir. An example of this is in the Gylfaginning, from the Prose Edda, in which appears also the most explicit reference to anything Jötunn [Giant] about him. He and his two brothers Býleipt (or Býleist) and Helblindi are therein said to be the sons of a Jötunn named Fárbauti, while their mother is a certain Laufey, who is also called Nál. We are not told much about Laufey beyond the idea that the reason she was called Nál, &quot;Needle,&quot; is because she was &quot;slender and weak&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is possible that Loki has similar origins to most of the other Æsir, who, like Óðinn and Þórr (Thor), are at least half-Jötunn, since the mothers of these gods were giantesses. Because Loki was among the treaty-makers who commingled their blood to become sworn brethren when the gods were making this pact, he became a member of this group, all of whom were considered to be Æsir from then on, whatever their nature or origins, as Vanir (a tribe/race of deities which for a time were the Æsir's rivals) or Jötnar [plural of *Jötunn*].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Loki's shadowy origins also make it difficult to ascertain whether he was initially pure Jötunn or not. We know nothing about his brothers apart from their names, so they do not help clear this issue up. Their parents are a bit of a puzzle themselves. In a late document called *Sörla þáttr eða Heðins saga ok Högna* (&quot;The Tale of Sörli, or of Heðin and Högni&quot;), the Jötunn Fárbauti is described as though he is merely a man, and an old one at that, at the time that he sires Loki. Elsewhere he is said to have impregnated Laufey with Loki by striking her with a bolt of lightning. Could this be a euphemism for a sexual assault? And were Býleipt and Helblindi conceived in the same way?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is sometimes said that Loki was a cousin of Óðinn (Odin) and that this was the reason that Óðinn had to accept him among the Æsir. If this is the case then it means that one of Loki's parents could have been a sibling of Óðinn's mother Bestla, herself one of the frost giants. At any rate, John Lindow has an interesting insight on the issue of Loki's nature in his *Norse Mythology: A Guide to the Gods, Heroes, Rituals and Beliefs*, in which he says the following in his article on Loki's mother Laufey:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; What is most striking about Laufey is that we always read of Loki&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Laufeyjarson and never of Loki Fárbautason ... There were no last&#xD;&#xA;&gt; names in old Scandinavia ... One had a given name and a patronymic,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; except in those rare cases when the father was unknown or unsavory, in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which case one had a matronymic. The fact that his father Fárbauti was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a giant was presumably something that Loki—and Odin—would rather not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; be reminded of, especially since in this mythology kinship is reckoned&#xD;&#xA;&gt; exclusively through male lines. (Consider the fact that Odin has a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; giant mother and sex with giantesses is one of his weapons.) Was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Laufey, then, a goddess? She is listed with goddesses in one of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thulur, and having a goddess mother might have been what enabled Loki&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to be &quot;enumerated among the æsir,&quot; as Snorri puts it in Gylfaginning.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; If Laufey was a goddess, then Loki's genealogy as offspring of a giant&#xD;&#xA;&gt; father and a goddess mother would be the same as that of his children&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with Angrboda, namely the Midgard serpent, Fenrir the wolf, and Hel,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; all great enemies of the gods, and this might explain his ultimate&#xD;&#xA;&gt; allegiance." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7257" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1725" RevisionGUID="9150dd1a-3859-4c46-8998-c957a1b40b18" CreationDate="2016-06-15T05:26:14.207" UserId="2682" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="*I have slightly modified the following from a Yahoo! Answers question I answered sometime ago.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He is referred to as a god in the Nibelungenlied and the Völsungasaga. In the Eddas he is generally referred to as an Ás, i.e., one of the gods called the Æsir. An example of this is in the Gylfaginning, from the Prose Edda, in which appears also the most explicit reference to anything Jötunn [Giant] about him. He and his two brothers Býleipt (or Býleist) and Helblindi are therein said to be the sons of a Jötunn named Fárbauti, while their mother is a certain Laufey, who is also called Nál. We are not told much about Laufey beyond the idea that the reason she was called Nál, &quot;Needle,&quot; is because she was &quot;slender and weak&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is possible that Loki has similar origins to most of the other Æsir, who, like Óðinn and Þórr (Thor), are at least half-Jötunn, since the mothers of these gods were giantesses. Because Loki was among the treaty-makers who commingled their blood to become sworn brethren when the gods were making this pact, he became a member of this group, all of whom were considered to be Æsir from then on, whatever their nature or origins, as Vanir (a tribe/race of deities which for a time were the Æsir's rivals) or Jötnar [plural of *Jötunn*].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Loki's shadowy origins also make it difficult to ascertain whether he was initially pure Jötunn or not. We know nothing about his brothers apart from their names, so they do not help clear this issue up. Their parents are a bit of a puzzle themselves. In a late document called *Sörla þáttr eða Heðins saga ok Högna* (&quot;The Tale of Sörli, or of Heðin and Högni&quot;), the Jötunn Fárbauti is described as though he is merely a man, and an old one at that, at the time that he sires Loki. Elsewhere he is said to have impregnated Laufey with Loki by striking her with a bolt of lightning. Could this be a euphemism for a sexual assault? And were Býleipt and Helblindi conceived in the same way?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is sometimes said that Loki was a cousin of Óðinn (Odin) and that this was the reason that Óðinn had to accept him among the Æsir. If this is the case then it means that one of Loki's parents could have been a sibling of Óðinn's mother Bestla, herself one of the frost giants. At any rate, John Lindow has an interesting insight on the issue of Loki's nature in his *Norse Mythology: A Guide to the Gods, Heroes, Rituals and Beliefs*, in which he says the following in his article on Loki's mother Laufey:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; What is most striking about Laufey is that we always read of Loki&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Laufeyjarson and never of Loki Fárbautason ... There were no last&#xD;&#xA;&gt; names in old Scandinavia ... One had a given name and a patronymic,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; except in those rare cases when the father was unknown or unsavory, in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which case one had a matronymic. The fact that his father Fárbauti was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a giant was presumably something that Loki—and Odin—would rather not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; be reminded of, especially since in this mythology kinship is reckoned&#xD;&#xA;&gt; exclusively through male lines. (Consider the fact that Odin has a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; giant mother and sex with giantesses is one of his weapons.) Was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Laufey, then, a goddess? She is listed with goddesses in one of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thulur, and having a goddess mother might have been what enabled Loki&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to be &quot;enumerated among the æsir,&quot; as Snorri puts it in Gylfaginning.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; If Laufey was a goddess, then Loki's genealogy as offspring of a giant&#xD;&#xA;&gt; father and a goddess mother would be the same as that of his children&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with Angrboda, namely the Midgard serpent, Fenrir the wolf, and Hel,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; all great enemies of the gods, and this might explain his ultimate&#xD;&#xA;&gt; allegiance." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7258" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1724" RevisionGUID="09277360-8780-4847-85a4-1f256c33c09e" CreationDate="2016-06-15T15:38:04.473" UserId="2682" Comment="Clarification on origin of question" Text="[*This is a question I've asked on Yahoo! Answers &amp; MythForum.com, &amp; for which I'm hoping to get further insight here.*]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Greek mythology the story of the birth of the god Hermes makes it sound he was originally mortal and that he somehow managed to bribe his way into becoming the twelfth [i.e. the last] of the Twelve Olympians, after appeasing his half-brother Apollon (Apollo) with a musical instrument, and sacrificing some of the cattle he had stolen from the same Apollon to the other eleven Olympians and to himself(!).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hermes' mother Maia was a daughter of the Titan Atlas. By some of this Titan's other daughters Zeus and Poseidon also had other sons, who all seem to have been born mortal. So there must have been something special about Maia herself or Hermes was at birth a mortal just like his half-brothers and cousins, and his father granted him immortality after he performed his amazing feats of theft on his first birthday.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the _Homeric Hymn to Hermes_, Apollon threatens to cast the baby Hermes into Tartaros &quot;to rule over the little folk there,&quot; a threat which no other god but Zeus ever seems to make to any other person in Greek myth. Is this an indication of Hermes' mortality at this point?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7259" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1398" RevisionGUID="82d4b076-7483-4925-ac90-f18d8fbf9054" CreationDate="2016-06-15T23:26:38.073" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="7260" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1727" RevisionGUID="c2c89311-ba80-4e22-be61-b5dc8faec817" CreationDate="2016-06-16T00:29:11.423" UserId="967" Text="#[Probably not][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Apollodorus,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[VI. ZEUS CONFIRMS THE DIVINE PRIVILEGES OF HERMES.]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;And Zeus made Hermes his personal herald and messenger of the gods beneath the earth.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It says that Zeus had to make him into his personal herald, and messenger, but there's no way that &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[II. HERMES STEALS APOLLO'S CATTLE.]&#xD;&#xA;Though he was laid out in swaddling-clothes with her winnowing-basket for a cradle, he escaped and made his way to Pieria, where he stole some cattle that Apollon was tending. To keep from being discovered by the tracks, he put boots on their feet and led them to Pylos. He hid them in a grotto, except for two which he sacrificed, pinning up their hides on rocks, boiling some of the meat for his meal and burning the rest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hermes, as a mortal baby, is able to think so in depth, and walk all the way to Pieria, Pylos, and back. Somehow.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Map][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the Homeric Hymns,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[H]e lay not long waiting in his *holy* cradle&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A **holy** cradle? Hmm. Either I'll have to add that to holy cow, and gosh darn, or this is a clear sign that Hermes is born as a god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And for Philostratus,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Very delightful are the thefts of *the god*; for the story is that Hermes, when Maia bore him, loved thievery and was skilled in it[.]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He sure seems like a god now! This is now wide and clear.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, in conclusion, Probably not.&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/HermesMyths.html#Theft1&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Pieria,+Greece/Pilos,+Greece/@38.5757655,20.3170478,7z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m13!4m12!1m5!1m1!1s0x1357e3c7302b5ad3:0x57066ba501491675!2m2!1d22.4768287!2d40.2669099!1m5!1m1!1s0x136172c4b04bba2d:0x500bd2ce2ba47c0!2m2!1d21.6963472!2d36.9130756" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7262" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1728" RevisionGUID="3fb47bc6-39bf-479a-8399-661577e2586c" CreationDate="2016-06-16T08:05:21.160" UserId="2682" Text="In your example, the second oath is a reneger of the first. Going by the Olympian rules regarding a Styx oath, the swearer would have to suffer the punishment for failing to fulfill the first one. The second oath is quite a bit more open to interpretation. E.g., if the swearer's father dies, the manner of his death exponentially complicates the question of the swearer's punishability, which would be based on just how well it is deemed that s\he attempted to prevent that death. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While a Styx oath was by no means casual, it was actually *not* unbreakable. Similar to ancient covenants, the whole point of the oath is the assumption that individuals (even Greek gods, so it would appear) do break promises, and lie, hence the need to qualify the covenant or oath with penalties for such reneging. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the region on the eastern shores of the Mediterranean Sea, commonly referred to, in &quot;Western&quot; parlance, as the Middle/Near East, a covenant was made between two parties by cutting an animal in two and walking in between and around its pieces (in a sort of Figure 8 formation) so that the participants' feet were drenched in its blood while each said something along the lines of &quot;May it be done to me as it has been done to this animal should I fail to fulfill my obligations in this contract or if I should break this deal.&quot; The point of the covenant is not that it is literally impossible for the participant to break it, rather it is meant as a deterrent from breaking one's promise(s) and also it is the kind of thing one does in order to convince others that s\he is as deathly serious as can be about what s\he says. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The principle is the same with the Styx oath. It was the most solemn vow that a [Greek] god could swear because of the consequences involved in breaking such a promise. According to Hesiod's *Theogony* the reason for taking the oath was because disputes sometimes erupted among the gods on Mt Olympos [Olympus] in which some would suspect or accuse others among them of dishonesty. On such an occasion Zeus would send the super-swift messenger-goddess Iris to fly to the Underworld to fetch water from the Styx River. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Carrying what she'd collected in a golden pitcher, Iris then handed it to the deity who was making the oath so that the swearer could pour the water out as a libation to the primordial deities Sky [Ouranos] and Earth [Gaia] and to those ancient ones in the chasm of Tartaros [Tartarus] (which meant, usually, the Titans and, sometimes, the Tritopatores, who, in rites like these, were honoured as the gods whose reign came after that of Sky and Earth but prior to the time of the Olympians). According to Lycophron's poem *Alexandra*, Zeus himself had established this practice by pouring out the same libation when he was about to go to war against the Titans, and which he repeated before going into battle against the Gigantes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The name Styx means &quot;Abomination&quot; or &quot;Abhorrent,&quot; a characteristic apparently describing this river's toxic water, which was as black as ink, and supposedly fatal to man and beast if touched or drunk. The beginning of the penalty for breaking a Styx oath was that the god who did so had to drink this same water. For a deity the effect of this was instant madness. Hereafter, in insanity, the offending deity would be stretched out in Tartaros in a sort of coma, deprived of any of the privileges given to deities, including their food and drink, thus rendering the offender unable to speak (doubtless as retribution for misusing his/her speech). That would be for a complete &quot;Great Year,&quot; which is equal to nine years among humans in ancient Greek calendars. After this the deity would remain in his/her demoted condition incarcerated for another eight Great Years so that his/her total sentence would be 81 human years.            &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Circling back to your example, making the two oaths therein could end in some quite dire results. After being punished for breaking the first one, the offender would not have been available to prevent his/her father's death, in which instance s\he could end up in a fresh round of punishment: in the renewed cycle of an additional nine Great Years. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7270" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1696" RevisionGUID="c08d72b5-1834-4549-9482-c19bdf60a878" CreationDate="2016-06-16T13:24:42.597" UserId="57" Comment="added 938 characters in body" Text="'The Cult of the Fox' by Xiaofei Kang, is a good reflection on how the 'Huxian'/'Huli Jing' myths predate the popular kitsune myth, and shows the establishment of a lot of the concepts taken for granted by pop-cultural depictions today, such as foxes feeding on human essence, associating with ghosts, or taking human form. There is also some brief mention within, of how the nine-tailed fox myth is easily as old as the Eastern Han dynasty, judging by some of the imagery it has been depicted in.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What has happened then, is that through Noh, and artists like Utagawa and Hokusai in the 1800's, Japan has claimed and revitalized the story of the nine-tailed fox, by merging it with that of numerous historical femme fatales, throughout India, China, and Japan. Bao Si. Daji. Tamamo-no-Mae. The nine-tailed fox itself, you will find, is not mentioned in any other story, about fox beings given human guise, in present recollection. Rather, it is epicly credited, within a handful of closely associated 'comparitively-modern' Japanese works, that the nine-tailed fox traveled from country to country to sow seditious discord, before finally ending its spree, with the life of Tamamo-no-Mae.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Best to think about it this way: the stories of the nine-tailed fox, the fox-courtesan, or 'huxian', and the trickster 'kitsune', are all variations on what foxes signified to people in different countries, over the ages. The feminine. The barbaric, outsider spirit. The trickster nature spirit. Their stories happened to grow up in tandem with folk religion, and each often contested the social norms of the time, even going so far as to spur social change (fox mediumship is one example represented in Chinese accounts). Because worship of fox spirits was heterodox--(for instance, in Shinto, Inari is discouraged from being associated AS the fox, but people form their own personal beliefs about Inari being the fox anyway), these stories often shadow a dominant religion, and are suppressed or appropriated by it in a constant struggle for rule.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What then happens is that folk superstition, especially represented in imagery, leads to the curiosity of literati, and their works preserve the ever-mutating myths. It is entirely possible that the 'kitsune' myth came about as a result of immigration and the influx of Buddhism and Taoism, into Japan. Looking back at some of Japan's significant mythical figures--Abe no Seimei, child of Kuzunoha, is reflected to be an Onmyoji--a Tao sorceror. Dakini-ten from Buddhist mythos, likewise, is depicted as a divine being riding a white fox. Such similar imagery and stories readily blend together, and synchronicity makes for the telling of a great ongoing ghost tale, readily picked up by any storyteller, regardless of its veracity or true origin. Your culprits in this case, are the same artists we have discussed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's easier to assume that, if there 'were' fox beings, they had whatever powers people wanted to ascribe to them at the time, and are only as connected or disconnected from one another, as their muddied lore, which travels orally, through visual icons, and through works of fiction-- gradually deviating based on cultural assumptions. Western pop culture, has effectively nurtured its own variations on the fox myths, which now live with us through our own interest. Which often is colored by New Agery, Therians and Otherkin, and misconceived notions about Shinto and Buddhist deities--and propagated by the works of anime lovers and furries. Likewise, Korea likes to depict the nine-tailed fox, explicitly, as a vampiric human-like seductress, and they are as common of a sight in dramas and movies there, as werewolves or vampires might be, here. The main difference nowadays being, that we possess an internet, to be more aware of these cultural deviations to the myth, as they occur.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's a never ending process of mutation. 'Do these foxes sparkle?' Digging back for the 'origin' is practically the task for a seasoned anthropologist.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's worth noting, lastly--that, in Japan--the Inari fox is considered by believers in Shinto, to hold power over other foxes. Yet, its supremacy is never denoted with the presence of nine tails, as we imagine would logically be the case from what pop culture leads us to believe. It is only the one foreign fox of ill repute, that ever brings that imagery into Japanese lore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would propose that Japan never historically held the concept of nine-tailed foxes, until later depictions of Tamamo-no-Mae made the idea popular--and that nine-tailed fox depictions existed only in Chinese and possibly Korean works, before being appropriated alongside existing, Japanese fox myths, sometime in the last two and a half centuries. Moreover, that stories with single-tailed foxes, were the common norm, and that the nine-tailed myth has now been dug up for the sake of sensationalism and its distinctive imagery, over 'just whatever fox'." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7275" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1733" RevisionGUID="69b3bafd-4746-42c0-b829-043dbb530a5d" CreationDate="2016-06-16T16:03:02.707" UserId="42" Text="Who says half of his eyes were asleep and half awake?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While a number of sources refer to his eyes taking sleep in turns, the only source I can find that specifies how many slept at once is Ovid:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Argus, Aristorides, whose head was circled with a hundred glowing eyes; of which but two did slumber in their turn whilst all the others kept on watch and guard.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Ovid's Metamorphoses I](http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html#7), 622-641&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, when he is being lulled to sleep by Hermes, more of his eyes close gradually, rather than as a unit:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; but Argus strove his languor to subdue, and though some drowsy eyes might slumber, still were some that vigil kept.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Ovid's Metamorphoses I](http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html#7), 682-688&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7284" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1737" RevisionGUID="d5c5f219-580b-47a9-9421-9da5b0bd18e8" CreationDate="2016-06-16T20:43:24.130" UserId="2690" Text=" Typically, in Irish, Welsh, and Scottish folklore, a black dog denotes an omen of a  death in the family, like a banshee, or at the very least a portent of some type. Perhaps that image has continued on through the centuries as a negative stereotype." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7288" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1739" RevisionGUID="7fb23b79-8471-48bc-bb69-1f92fc7646a7" CreationDate="2016-06-17T05:28:50.490" UserId="1624" Text="If I remember well, they are 2 **differents classes** of gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this myth of the creation of the Human (saga of Atrahasis), It is said that Anunnaki deities were ruling in the heaven, it comes from the summerian *A-nun-na(k) : which comes from An (Master of the Univers and Lord of the Creation)*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Atra-Hasis (flood myth), we can read that Igigi deities (or Igigu) were deities from the Earth, who were supposed to give presents to Anunnaki deities, by working etc...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But one day, they revolt, and it ends up by the creation of the Human race, in order to do the work of the Igigi.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So at this time, Anunnaki are superior gods and Igigi inferior gods, but they are in the heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the myth of the creation of Babylon (Enuma Elish), the god Marduk becomes the leader of the Gods (successor of Enlil), and decide they will be 600 gods, Igigi in the sky and Anunnaki on the Earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the myth of Innana (descent in the hell), Anunnaki are described as judge of the hell and they are 71.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That is all I know from it, hope it helps." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7289" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1739" RevisionGUID="e7857d90-b21f-459d-9638-559775ae40a2" CreationDate="2016-06-17T11:01:21.800" UserId="51" Comment="Corrected typos." Text="If I remember well, they are 2 **different classes** of gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this myth of the creation of the Human (saga of Atrahasis), It is said that Anunnaki deities were ruling in the heaven, it comes from the sumerian *A-nun-na(k) : which comes from An (Master of the Universe and Lord of the Creation)*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Atra-Hasis (flood myth), we can read that Igigi deities (or Igigu) were deities from the Earth, who were supposed to give presents to Anunnaki deities, by working, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But one day, they revolt, and it ends up by the creation of the Human race, in order to do the work of the Igigi.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So at this time, Anunnaki are superior gods and Igigi inferior gods, but they are in the heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the myth of the creation of Babylon (Enuma Elish), the god Marduk becomes the leader of the Gods (successor of Enlil), and decide they will be 600 gods, Igigi in the sky and Anunnaki on the Earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the myth of Innana (descent in the hell), Anunnaki are described as judge of the hell and they are 71.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That is all I know from it, hope it helps." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7290" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1739" RevisionGUID="e7857d90-b21f-459d-9638-559775ae40a2" CreationDate="2016-06-17T11:01:21.800" Comment="Proposed by 51 approved by 42, 1624 edit id of 324" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7291" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1740" RevisionGUID="9e14a31b-9f61-405d-9978-7ceff8046690" CreationDate="2016-06-17T11:55:54.593" UserId="742" Text="Which deity, according to Greek and Roman mythology, is represented by the planet that we call Venus? Is it the goddess Venus (Aphrodite in Greek) or is someone named Lucifer?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7292" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1740" RevisionGUID="9e14a31b-9f61-405d-9978-7ceff8046690" CreationDate="2016-06-17T11:55:54.593" UserId="742" Text="Is it Lucifer or Venus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7293" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1740" RevisionGUID="9e14a31b-9f61-405d-9978-7ceff8046690" CreationDate="2016-06-17T11:55:54.593" UserId="742" Text="|greek|myth-identification|roman|astrology|maiden-goddesses|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7294" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1741" RevisionGUID="d8acecec-bb47-49bb-94d3-12dea65a3223" CreationDate="2016-06-17T12:35:27.497" UserId="967" Text="#Lucifer is the Latin name of [Eôsphoros][1], who was paired up with Vesper.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eôsphoros means dawn-bringer. They were [Astra Planeta][1], gods of the five planets.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;EOSPHOROS and HESPEROS were the gods of the star (astron planeta) Venus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But remember, that is present day- they did not call the planet they saw in the sky Aphrodite.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So it is in fact Lucifer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/AsterEosphoros.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7295" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1742" RevisionGUID="3f4f9394-c85c-467a-9c83-238782a640c3" CreationDate="2016-06-17T20:16:31.227" UserId="2700" Text="One of the stranger monsters mentioned in the twelve tasks of Hercules, Geryon is described, in all the source material I've seen as having three bodies. I've always had a little trouble picturing such a being; the only material I've found with more detail is the book Geryon by Bernard Evslin describing Geryon as 'siamese triplets' (and he had a habit of taking great liberties with the source material, for examples see his other works Minotaur, Anteas and the Caledonian Boar just to name a few). Is there any existing works from ancient Greece that describe Geryon with more detail or show illustrations of him?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7296" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1742" RevisionGUID="3f4f9394-c85c-467a-9c83-238782a640c3" CreationDate="2016-06-17T20:16:31.227" UserId="2700" Text="Are there any surviving depictions/descriptions of Geryon?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7297" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1742" RevisionGUID="3f4f9394-c85c-467a-9c83-238782a640c3" CreationDate="2016-06-17T20:16:31.227" UserId="2700" Text="|mythical-creatures|hercules|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7298" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1742" RevisionGUID="3bddedc8-3169-4278-83b1-15ccaf6cb061" CreationDate="2016-06-17T20:25:54.340" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|hercules|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7299" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1743" RevisionGUID="c1e5eb88-4230-4c0e-9af5-aa204ffb13d5" CreationDate="2016-06-18T00:12:33.987" UserId="42" Text="&quot;Siamese Triplets&quot; sounds about right, really.  Apollodorus Library contains a textual brief description of his anatomy:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This island was inhabited by Geryon, son of Chrysaor by Callirrhoe, daughter of Ocean. He had the body of three men grown together and joined in one at the waist, but parted in three from the flanks and thighs.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Apollodorus Library, 2.5](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus2.html#5).10&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Stesichorus's Geryoneis also gives him wings, as well as six hands and feet, [as seen here](https://www.loebclassics.com/view/stesichorus_i-fragments/1991/pb_LCL476.89.xml).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And Aeschylus descibes his accoutrements:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Starting thence, when that he had crossed the ocean in a golden bowl, he drave the straight-horned kine from the uttermost parts of the earth, slew the evil herdsmen and their triple-bodied master, who wielded three spears in his (right) hands; in his left, extending three shields, and shaking his three crests, he advanced like unto Ares in his might.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Aeschylus's Hêrakleidai](http://www.theoi.com/Text/AeschylusFragments.html#Herakleidai) Fragment 37&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aside from that, there are some surviving visual depctions.  Here are a few (all from about 550 - 500 BC):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Herakles and Geryones, Amphora][1]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Herakles and Geryones, Amphora][2]][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Herakles and Geryones, Amphora][3]][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/sivPa.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/k6qtv.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/hXr39.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.theoi.com/Gallery/L3.5.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.theoi.com/Gallery/L3.6B.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.theoi.com/Gallery/L3.1.html&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7300" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1744" RevisionGUID="9182a050-eb7a-46a1-b174-ce1a3cce0fe9" CreationDate="2016-06-18T07:29:05.750" UserId="1632" Text="I just re-read the story of Zeus and Europa, and in the notes provided by my book, it mentions that the continent of Europe was named after the mythological Europa.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It gave no more explanation, and this confuses me, since Europa was taken to the island of Crete, not the continent of Europe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which leads me to ask, how does the name Europe derive from Europa? I can't figure it out from the myth alone. But I assume there's more to it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks in advance!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7301" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1744" RevisionGUID="9182a050-eb7a-46a1-b174-ce1a3cce0fe9" CreationDate="2016-06-18T07:29:05.750" UserId="1632" Text="How does Europe derive from Europa?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7302" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1744" RevisionGUID="9182a050-eb7a-46a1-b174-ce1a3cce0fe9" CreationDate="2016-06-18T07:29:05.750" UserId="1632" Text="|greek|roman|etymology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7303" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1745" RevisionGUID="56dc48df-08de-4b26-813c-d47b7ae308ae" CreationDate="2016-06-18T08:58:14.057" UserId="2682" Text="Examples of this do not seem to especially abound. Perhaps unsurprisingly, people tend to portray God or the gods to be whatever colour they themselves are, for better or worse. Nonetheless, as you have observed, such a phenomenon is not out of the question. Your mention of black Madonnas makes me think of [![St Mauritius][1]][1] the legendary Roman soldier St Mauritius [Maurice], who is remarkably popular in Europe (especially Switzerland), being the patron saint of Austria, as well as of one Spanish city, two cities in Germany and four places in Italy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Conversely St George is the patron saint of Ethiopia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## AZTECA &amp; MAYA ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In late Aztec mythology the deities Ometecuhtli and Omecihuatl had four sons who were called the Tezcatlipocas, &quot;Smoking Mirrors,&quot; who created all the other gods, as well as the world and humankind. Each Tezcatlipoca was a different colour. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first, simply called Tezcatlipoca, was the **Black Tezcatlipoca**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Quetzalcóatl, often occurring as the twin of the first one,  was the **White Tezcatlipoca**. Regarding him and a few other pre-Columbian deities in the Americas there have been controversial theories claiming that their &quot;whiteness&quot; is a reference to Europeans (or even Atlanteans) whose arrival in the so-called New World antedates that of Columbus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The third was called Huitzilopochtli, who was the **Blue Tezcatlipoca**; and the last was Xipe Totec, the **Red Tezcatlipoca**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Essentially the same formula and myth recurs among the Maya with the Bacabs, who are the four sons of Itzamna and Ixchel, each placed by their grandfather the supreme god Hunab-Ku at one of the four cardinal points of the compass to support the structure of the sky. Each Bacab was a different colour: the Western one was **black**, in the Northern one **white**, the Southern **yellow** and the Eastern **red**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## BUDDHISM from China ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The four Tezcatlipocas and the four Bacabs bear a striking resemblance to an ancient Indian concept of four deities who each ruled over and guarded one of the four cardinal compass-point regions of the world. Both Hinduism and Buddhism arose from the same region, from peoples who venerated the same gods. In Chinese Buddhism these four world guardians, who would be readily recognisable to Hindus, are now called Sì Dà Tiānwáng, the &quot;[Four Great Heavenly Kings]().&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![North, South, East &amp; West Kings][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Kubera [Kuvera], also known as Vaiśravaṇa, is the North King, who&#xD;&#xA;   rules over daemons called the Kinnaras and the Yakṣas. He is&#xD;&#xA;   **yellow**.&#xD;&#xA; - Virūḍhaka is the South King, who rules the Kumbhāṇḍas. He is&#xD;&#xA;   **blue**, although sometimes depicted or described as **green**.&#xD;&#xA; - Dhṛtarāṣṭra [Dhritarashtra] is the East King, who rules over&#xD;&#xA;   creatures called the Gandharvas. He is **white**.&#xD;&#xA; - Virūpākṣa is the West King, who reigns over the Nāgas. He is **red**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## NORSEMEN ##&#xD;&#xA;**The Svartálfar**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his 2002 essay [The Aesir and the Elves](http://www.germanicmythology.com/original/AesirandElves.pdf), William P. Reaves references the close association of the Æsir (who we know for sure to be deities venerated by the Norsemen) with the Álfar, &quot;Elves,&quot; who we know tantalisingly little about but who it seems were a race of divinities related to both the Æsir and the Dwarves. According to John Lindow's *Norse Mythology: A Guide to the Gods, Heroes, Rituals, and Beliefs*, there are references in mediaeval Icelandic tradition to something called the *álfablót*, which translates to something like a &quot;sacrifice to the elves.&quot; Based on this it seems that the Álfar were venerated (or &quot;worshipped&quot;) in Scandinavia at some point. In Hávamál 159-160 &quot;both Æsir and Álfar&quot; are explicitly identified as *tíva*, &quot;gods.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Snorri Sturluson is the only pre-modern mythographer who mentions any distinct classifications among the Elves, in that he says that some of them are &quot;bright&quot; or &quot;white,&quot; and even dwell in heavens which are above and beyond the Æsir's home Asgarð;  while some Elves are &quot;dark&quot; or &quot;black.&quot; Lindow notes two instances of Snorri saying that the Dwarves lived in Svartálfaheim, &quot;Black-Elf World/Home.&quot; In Skáldskaparmál 35, Loki is forced to swear that he will get the Svartálfar (*Black Elves*, who in the Gylfaginning are &quot;blacker than pitch&quot;) to replace the golden hair of Þórr's [Thor's] wife Sif, which Loki has maliciously or mischievously shorn off, with new locks that could attach themselves to her scalp and continue growing indistinguishable from ordinary hair. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The very next description is confusing in that it then has a family of Dwarves called Ívaldasynir (*Ívaldi's Sons*: a company name?), fulfilling this role of hair-supply. Reaves makes the case that Ívaldasynir are therefore Black Elves (= Elven Dwarves, or Dwarfen Elves?). They are significantly integral characters to the mythology since they end up creating not just a new head of resplendent hair for the thunder-god's wife but also all the important weapons and artifacts of any of the Æsir, most notably Þórr's magic hammer Mjöllnir.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Vanir (&amp; the 'Whitest' of the Æsir)**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Heimdallr, the watchman of the Æsir's home, Asgarð, bears some unusual features like (presumably natural) golden teeth, which give him the epithet Gullintanni. He is also, in the Gylfaginning, called *Hvíti Ás*, the &quot;White Ás&quot; [*Æsir* is plural of *Ás*], as though to suggest either that the Æsir are not themselves white or that Heimdallr's whiteness is really peculiar (starkly **milk**-white?). The poem *Þrymskviða* tantalises yet further in describing him as *Hvítastr Ása*, the &quot;Whitest Ás,&quot; followed immediately by the statement that he possesses great foreknowledge &quot;like other Vanir.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Vanir were a tribe of gods who at some point rivalled the Æsir but were eventually assimilated by them, so that we have originally Van [*singular of* Vanir] characters like the god Njörð and his children becoming Æsir. It is most unusual, however, for a son of Óðinn [Odin], the chiefest of the Æsir, to be described as a Van, especially in the same passage that he has just been called an Ás.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The solution to this might be in Heimdallr's maternity, which *per se* is an anomaly in Norse mythology, as he is given his birth by nine mothers whose names are provided but whose origin is never explained. Conveniently, the sea-giant Ægir has nine daughters. *In*conveniently, however, their names don't match those of Heimdallr's mothers. An alternative interpretation for the identification of the nine is that they are the daughters of the giant Geirröðr. The myths explicitly mention only two daughters of this giant but both their names are included in the list of Heimdallr's mothers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps the discrepancies can be avoided altogether by linking the possible allusion to Heimdallr being a Van with his strange birth situation. Maybe the nine mothers of this Ás were actually Vanir. This would not preclude them from still being giantesses, as a few Vanir appear to have been just that. Pushing the link to a further conclusion could indicate that the Vanir were &quot;whiter&quot; than the Æsir. Maybe they were more immediate descendants of the frost giants and thus were literally snow-white(?). At any rate it would take us some distance beyond Lindow's resignation to the fact that &#xD;&#xA;&gt; There are no indications of Heimdall's membership among the vanir. Nor has his whiteness ever been explained. (2001:170)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If this snowy Vanir theory is at all close to the mark, I suppose it would beg the question of what complexion the Scandinavian/Norse worshippers of the Æsir and the Vanir perceived *themselves* as having. In a lot of scholarship regarding Eurasian religions and myths, particularly in the 19th &amp; 20th centuries, it has been quite popular to perceive the stories about conflicts between older deities and newer ones as indicating waves of invasions by settlers who usurped and assimilated indigenous cultures and stories into their own. If there is any merit to that, perhaps this is what the war between the Vanir and the Æsir represents: friction among at least two different people-groups. This, however, cuts against the usual grain of theories in this field, because in this case it would be a &quot;white[r]&quot; population being invaded by a &quot;dark[er]&quot; group.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding the Elves who live above and beyond the Æsir, the Gylfaginning says that they are brighter than the sun to look at, which resonates with Benjamin Thorpe's translation of Heimdallr as *hvítastr:* &quot;**brightest**&quot; rather than &quot;whitest,&quot; whatever that may mean. Maybe the Vanir are deities who are both more Elven and more Gigantic in nature while the Elves, especially the Svartálfar, are the familial link between the Æsir and the Dwarves.       &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hel** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Gylfaginning, Hel, or Hela, the gigantic goddess who houses and rules over the dead in the northern end of the universe, is described as half dark-blue (or blue-black) and half &quot;flesh-coloured.&quot; This is generally interpreted to mean that half of her body has decayed (or suffered hypothermia in the frigidity of her ice-cold realm?), so perhaps this doesn't count as something exotically different from the complexion of the Norsemen, as Snorri is here probably imagining the same kind of discolouration that would happen to the average mediaeval Scandinavian corpse upon death. I mention it mainly to indicate just one more instance of a Norse deity with a feature that is &quot;fancier than red hair.&quot; Speaking of which, by the way, one of the daughters of Ægir is named Blóðughadda, &quot;Bloody-Hair.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## ANCIENT GREECE ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Depending on which ancient Greek writer you consult, such as Herodotus, several if not most of the deities whom the Greeks worshipped had been imported into their country by Egyptians, Libyans, &quot;Ethiopians,&quot; Phoenicians, Syrians and Mesopotamians in general. The myths themselves bear this out. An example of this is the African versions of Zeus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of these versions is mentioned by Lycophron and John Tzetzes, who call him Zeus Aithiops [Aethiops], a word which has come to be interpreted in a few different ways. It could mean &quot;Glowing,&quot; &quot;Fiery-Eyed&quot; or &quot;Burnt-Faced.&quot; The latter two translations can both be interpreted as references to dark complexion, such as that of the inhabitants of South Sudan, whom the ancient Greeks called *Aithiopes*. &quot;Fiery-Eyed&quot; has sometimes been interpreted as a reference to the stark contrast between the dark skin of the South Sudanese and the whiteness of their eyes' sclerae. William Smith's *Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology* translates Zeus Aithiops as &quot;Black Zeus&quot; and says that he was worshipped as far afield from Africa as the island of Khios, in the middle of the Aegean Sea. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/tmIky.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/bRkd4.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7304" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1745" RevisionGUID="3a2edf3c-c6d6-40f7-bc09-b70ff2e84f2d" CreationDate="2016-06-18T09:19:57.870" UserId="2682" Comment="added 49 characters in body" Text="Examples of this do not seem to especially abound. Perhaps unsurprisingly, people tend to portray God or the gods to be whatever colour they themselves are, for better or worse. Nonetheless, as you have observed, such a phenomenon is not out of the question. Your mention of black Madonnas makes me think of [![St Mauritius][1]][1] the legendary Roman soldier St Mauritius [Maurice], who is remarkably popular in Europe (especially Switzerland), being the patron saint of Austria, as well as of one Spanish city, two cities in Germany and four places in Italy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Conversely St George is the patron saint of Ethiopia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## AZTECA &amp; MAYA ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In late Aztec mythology the deities Ometecuhtli and Omecihuatl had four sons who were called the Tezcatlipocas, &quot;Smoking Mirrors,&quot; who created all the other gods, as well as the world and humankind. Each Tezcatlipoca was a different colour. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first, simply called Tezcatlipoca, was the **Black Tezcatlipoca**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Quetzalcóatl, often occurring as the twin of the first one,  was the **White Tezcatlipoca**. Regarding him and a few other pre-Columbian deities in the Americas there have been controversial theories claiming that their &quot;whiteness&quot; is a reference to Europeans (or even Atlanteans) whose arrival in the so-called New World antedates that of Columbus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The third was called Huitzilopochtli, who was the **Blue Tezcatlipoca**; and the last was Xipe Totec, the **Red Tezcatlipoca**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Essentially the same formula and myth recurs among the Maya with the Bacabs, who are the four sons of Itzamna and Ixchel, each placed by their grandfather the supreme god Hunab-Ku at one of the four cardinal points of the compass to support the structure of the sky. Each Bacab was a different colour: the Western one was **black**, in the Northern one **white**, the Southern **yellow** and the Eastern **red**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## BUDDHISM from China ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The four Tezcatlipocas and the four Bacabs bear a striking resemblance to an ancient Indian concept of four deities who each ruled over and guarded one of the four cardinal compass-point regions of the world. Both Hinduism and Buddhism arose from the same region, from peoples who venerated the same gods. In Chinese Buddhism these four world guardians, who would be readily recognisable to Hindus, are now called Sì Dà Tiānwáng, the &quot;[Four Great Heavenly Kings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Heavenly_Kings).&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![North, South, East &amp; West Kings][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Kubera [Kuvera], also known as Vaiśravaṇa, is the North King, who&#xD;&#xA;   rules over daemons called the Kinnaras and the Yakṣas. He is&#xD;&#xA;   **yellow**.&#xD;&#xA; - Virūḍhaka is the South King, who rules the Kumbhāṇḍas. He is&#xD;&#xA;   **blue**, although sometimes depicted or described as **green**.&#xD;&#xA; - Dhṛtarāṣṭra [Dhritarashtra] is the East King, who rules over&#xD;&#xA;   creatures called the Gandharvas. He is **white**.&#xD;&#xA; - Virūpākṣa is the West King, who reigns over the Nāgas. He is **red**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## NORSEMEN ##&#xD;&#xA;**The Svartálfar**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his 2002 essay [The Aesir and the Elves](http://www.germanicmythology.com/original/AesirandElves.pdf), William P. Reaves references the close association of the Æsir (who we know for sure to be deities venerated by the Norsemen) with the Álfar, &quot;Elves,&quot; who we know tantalisingly little about but who it seems were a race of divinities related to both the Æsir and the Dwarves. According to John Lindow's *Norse Mythology: A Guide to the Gods, Heroes, Rituals, and Beliefs*, there are references in mediaeval Icelandic tradition to something called the *álfablót*, which translates to something like a &quot;sacrifice to the elves.&quot; Based on this it seems that the Álfar were venerated (or &quot;worshipped&quot;) in Scandinavia at some point. In Hávamál 159-160 &quot;both Æsir and Álfar&quot; are explicitly identified as *tíva*, &quot;gods.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Snorri Sturluson is the only pre-modern mythographer who mentions any distinct classifications among the Elves, in that he says that some of them are &quot;bright&quot; or &quot;white,&quot; and even dwell in heavens which are above and beyond the Æsir's home Asgarð;  while some Elves are &quot;dark&quot; or &quot;black.&quot; Lindow notes two instances of Snorri saying that the Dwarves lived in Svartálfaheim, &quot;Black-Elf World/Home.&quot; In Skáldskaparmál 35, Loki is forced to swear that he will get the Svartálfar (*Black Elves*, who in the Gylfaginning are &quot;blacker than pitch&quot;) to replace the golden hair of Þórr's [Thor's] wife Sif, which Loki has maliciously or mischievously shorn off, with new locks that could attach themselves to her scalp and continue growing indistinguishable from ordinary hair. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The very next description is confusing in that it then has a family of Dwarves called Ívaldasynir (*Ívaldi's Sons*: a company name?), fulfilling this role of hair-supply. Reaves makes the case that Ívaldasynir are therefore Black Elves (= Elven Dwarves, or Dwarfen Elves?). They are significantly integral characters to the mythology since they end up creating not just a new head of resplendent hair for the thunder-god's wife but also all the important weapons and artifacts of any of the Æsir, most notably Þórr's magic hammer Mjöllnir.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Vanir (&amp; the 'Whitest' of the Æsir)**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Heimdallr, the watchman of the Æsir's home, Asgarð, bears some unusual features like (presumably natural) golden teeth, which give him the epithet Gullintanni. He is also, in the Gylfaginning, called *Hvíti Ás*, the &quot;White Ás&quot; [*Æsir* is plural of *Ás*], as though to suggest either that the Æsir are not themselves white or that Heimdallr's whiteness is really peculiar (starkly **milk**-white?). The poem *Þrymskviða* tantalises yet further in describing him as *Hvítastr Ása*, the &quot;Whitest Ás,&quot; followed immediately by the statement that he possesses great foreknowledge &quot;like other Vanir.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Vanir were a tribe of gods who at some point rivalled the Æsir but were eventually assimilated by them, so that we have originally Van [*singular of* Vanir] characters like the god Njörð and his children becoming Æsir. It is most unusual, however, for a son of Óðinn [Odin], the chiefest of the Æsir, to be described as a Van, especially in the same passage that he has just been called an Ás.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The solution to this might be in Heimdallr's maternity, which *per se* is an anomaly in Norse mythology, as he is given his birth by nine mothers whose names are provided but whose origin is never explained. Conveniently, the sea-giant Ægir has nine daughters. *In*conveniently, however, their names don't match those of Heimdallr's mothers. An alternative interpretation for the identification of the nine is that they are the daughters of the giant Geirröðr. The myths explicitly mention only two daughters of this giant but both their names are included in the list of Heimdallr's mothers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps the discrepancies can be avoided altogether by linking the possible allusion to Heimdallr being a Van with his strange birth situation. Maybe the nine mothers of this Ás were actually Vanir. This would not preclude them from still being giantesses, as a few Vanir appear to have been just that. Pushing the link to a further conclusion could indicate that the Vanir were &quot;whiter&quot; than the Æsir. Maybe they were more immediate descendants of the frost giants and thus were literally snow-white(?). At any rate it would take us some distance beyond Lindow's resignation to the fact that &#xD;&#xA;&gt; There are no indications of Heimdall's membership among the vanir. Nor has his whiteness ever been explained. (2001:170)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If this snowy Vanir theory is at all close to the mark, I suppose it would beg the question of what complexion the Scandinavian/Norse worshippers of the Æsir and the Vanir perceived *themselves* as having. In a lot of scholarship regarding Eurasian religions and myths, particularly in the 19th &amp; 20th centuries, it has been quite popular to perceive the stories about conflicts between older deities and newer ones as indicating waves of invasions by settlers who usurped and assimilated indigenous cultures and stories into their own. If there is any merit to that, perhaps this is what the war between the Vanir and the Æsir represents: friction among at least two different people-groups. This, however, cuts against the usual grain of theories in this field, because in this case it would be a &quot;white[r]&quot; population being invaded by a &quot;dark[er]&quot; group.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding the Elves who live above and beyond the Æsir, the Gylfaginning says that they are brighter than the sun to look at, which resonates with Benjamin Thorpe's translation of Heimdallr as *hvítastr:* &quot;**brightest**&quot; rather than &quot;whitest,&quot; whatever that may mean. Maybe the Vanir are deities who are both more Elven and more Gigantic in nature while the Elves, especially the Svartálfar, are the familial link between the Æsir and the Dwarves.       &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hel** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Gylfaginning, Hel, or Hela, the gigantic goddess who houses and rules over the dead in the northern end of the universe, is described as half dark-blue (or blue-black) and half &quot;flesh-coloured.&quot; This is generally interpreted to mean that half of her body has decayed (or suffered hypothermia in the frigidity of her ice-cold realm?), so perhaps this doesn't count as something exotically different from the complexion of the Norsemen, as Snorri is here probably imagining the same kind of discolouration that would happen to the average mediaeval Scandinavian corpse upon death. I mention it mainly to indicate just one more instance of a Norse deity with a feature that is &quot;fancier than red hair.&quot; Speaking of which, by the way, one of the daughters of Ægir is named Blóðughadda, &quot;Bloody-Hair.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## ANCIENT GREECE ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Depending on which ancient Greek writer you consult, such as Herodotus, several if not most of the deities whom the Greeks worshipped had been imported into their country by Egyptians, Libyans, &quot;Ethiopians,&quot; Phoenicians, Syrians and Mesopotamians in general. The myths themselves bear this out. An example of this is the African versions of Zeus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of these versions is mentioned by Lycophron and John Tzetzes, who call him Zeus Aithiops [Aethiops], a word which has come to be interpreted in a few different ways. It could mean &quot;Glowing,&quot; &quot;Fiery-Eyed&quot; or &quot;Burnt-Faced.&quot; The latter two translations can both be interpreted as references to dark complexion, such as that of the inhabitants of South Sudan, whom the ancient Greeks called *Aithiopes*. &quot;Fiery-Eyed&quot; has sometimes been interpreted as a reference to the stark contrast between the dark skin of the South Sudanese and the whiteness of their eyes' sclerae. William Smith's *Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology* translates Zeus Aithiops as &quot;Black Zeus&quot; and says that he was worshipped as far afield from Africa as the island of Khios, in the middle of the Aegean Sea. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/tmIky.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/bRkd4.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7305" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1745" RevisionGUID="7591c09e-0deb-466f-b93e-e9b0cec34275" CreationDate="2016-06-18T09:29:14.243" UserId="2682" Comment="added 49 characters in body" Text="Examples of this do not seem to especially abound. Perhaps unsurprisingly, people tend to portray God or the gods to be whatever colour they themselves are, for better or worse. Nonetheless, as you have observed, such a phenomenon is not out of the question. Your mention of black Madonnas makes me think of [![St Mauritius][1]][1] the legendary Roman soldier St Mauritius [Maurice], who is remarkably popular in Europe (especially Switzerland), being the patron saint of Austria, as well as of one Spanish city, two cities in Germany and four places in Italy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Conversely St George is the patron saint of Ethiopia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## AZTECA &amp; MAYA ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In late Aztec mythology the deities Ometecuhtli and Omecihuatl had four sons who were called the Tezcatlipocas, &quot;Smoking Mirrors,&quot; who created all the other gods, as well as the world and humankind. Each Tezcatlipoca was a different colour. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first, simply called Tezcatlipoca, was the **Black Tezcatlipoca**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Quetzalcóatl, often occurring as the twin of the first one,  was the **White Tezcatlipoca**. Regarding him and a few other pre-Columbian deities in the Americas there have been controversial theories claiming that their &quot;whiteness&quot; is a reference to Europeans (or even Atlanteans) whose arrival in the so-called New World antedates that of Columbus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The third was called Huitzilopochtli, who was the **Blue Tezcatlipoca**; and the last was Xipe Totec, the **Red Tezcatlipoca**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Essentially the same formula and myth recurs among the Maya with the Bacabs, who are the four sons of Itzamna and Ixchel, each placed by their grandfather the supreme god Hunab-Ku at one of the four cardinal points of the compass to support the structure of the sky. Each Bacab was a different colour: the Western one was **black**, in the Northern one **white**, the Southern **yellow** and the Eastern **red**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## BUDDHISM from China ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The four Tezcatlipocas and the four Bacabs bear a striking resemblance to an ancient Indian concept of four deities who each ruled over and guarded one of the four cardinal compass-point regions of the world. Both Hinduism and Buddhism arose from the same region, from peoples who venerated the same gods. In Chinese Buddhism these four world guardians, who would be readily recognisable to Hindus, are now called Sì Dà Tiānwáng, the &quot;[Four Great Heavenly Kings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Heavenly_Kings).&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![North, South, East &amp; West Kings][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Kubera [Kuvera], also known as Vaiśravaṇa, is the North King, who&#xD;&#xA;   rules over daemons called the Kinnaras and the Yakṣas. He is&#xD;&#xA;   **yellow**.&#xD;&#xA; - Virūḍhaka is the South King, who rules the Kumbhāṇḍas. He is&#xD;&#xA;   **blue**, although sometimes depicted or described as **green**.&#xD;&#xA; - Dhṛtarāṣṭra [Dhritarashtra] is the East King, who rules over&#xD;&#xA;   creatures called the Gandharvas. He is **white**.&#xD;&#xA; - Virūpākṣa is the West King, who reigns over the Nāgas. He is **red**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## NORSEMEN ##&#xD;&#xA;**The Svartálfar**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his 2002 essay [The Aesir and the Elves](http://www.germanicmythology.com/original/AesirandElves.pdf), William P. Reaves references the close association of the Æsir (who we know for sure to be deities venerated by the Norsemen) with the Álfar, &quot;Elves,&quot; who we know tantalisingly little about but who it seems were a race of divinities related to both the Æsir and the Dwarves. According to John Lindow's *Norse Mythology: A Guide to the Gods, Heroes, Rituals, and Beliefs*, there are references in mediaeval Icelandic tradition to something called the *álfablót*, which translates to something like a &quot;sacrifice to the elves.&quot; Based on this it seems that the Álfar were venerated (or &quot;worshipped&quot;) in Scandinavia at some point. In Hávamál 159-160 &quot;both Æsir and Álfar&quot; are explicitly identified as *tíva*, &quot;gods.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Snorri Sturluson is the only pre-modern mythographer who mentions any distinct classifications among the Elves, in that he says that some of them are &quot;bright&quot; or &quot;white,&quot; and even dwell in heavens which are above and beyond the Æsir's home Asgarð;  while some Elves are &quot;dark&quot; or &quot;black.&quot; Lindow notes two instances of Snorri saying that the Dwarves live in Svartálfaheim, &quot;Black-Elf World/Home.&quot; In Skáldskaparmál 35, Loki is forced to swear that he will get the Svartálfar (*Black Elves*, who in the Gylfaginning are &quot;blacker than pitch&quot;) to replace the golden hair of Þórr's [Thor's] wife Sif, which Loki has maliciously or mischievously shorn off, with new locks that could attach themselves to her scalp and continue growing indistinguishable from ordinary hair. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The very next description is confusing in that it then has a family of Dwarves called Ívaldasynir (*Ívaldi's Sons*: a company name?), fulfilling this role of hair-supply. Reaves makes the case that Ívaldasynir are therefore Black Elves (= Elven Dwarves, or Dwarfen Elves?). They are significantly integral characters to the mythology since they end up creating not just a new head of resplendent hair for the thunder-god's wife but also all the important weapons and artifacts of any of the Æsir, most notably Þórr's magic hammer Mjöllnir.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Vanir (&amp; the 'Whitest' of the Æsir)**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Heimdallr, the watchman of the Æsir's home, Asgarð, bears some unusual features like (presumably natural) golden teeth, which give him the epithet Gullintanni. He is also, in the Gylfaginning, called *Hvíti Ás*, the &quot;White Ás&quot; [*Æsir* is plural of *Ás*], as though to suggest either that the Æsir are not themselves white or that Heimdallr's whiteness is really peculiar (starkly **milk**-white?). The poem *Þrymskviða* tantalises yet further in describing him as *Hvítastr Ása*, the &quot;Whitest Ás,&quot; followed immediately by the statement that he possesses great foreknowledge &quot;like other Vanir.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Vanir were a tribe of gods who at some point rivalled the Æsir but were eventually assimilated by them, so that we have originally Van [*singular of* Vanir] characters like the god Njörð and his children becoming Æsir. It is most unusual, however, for a son of Óðinn [Odin], the chiefest of the Æsir, to be described as a Van, especially in the same passage that he has just been called an Ás.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The solution to this might be in Heimdallr's maternity, which *per se* is an anomaly in Norse mythology, as he is given his birth by nine mothers whose names are provided but whose origin is never explained. Conveniently, the sea-giant Ægir has nine daughters. *In*conveniently, however, their names don't match those of Heimdallr's mothers. An alternative interpretation for the identification of the nine is that they are the daughters of the giant Geirröðr. The myths explicitly mention only two daughters of this giant but both their names are included in the list of Heimdallr's mothers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps the discrepancies can be avoided altogether by linking the possible allusion to Heimdallr being a Van with his strange birth situation. Maybe the nine mothers of this Ás were actually Vanir. This would not preclude them from still being giantesses, as a few Vanir appear to have been just that. Pushing the link to a further conclusion could indicate that the Vanir were &quot;whiter&quot; than the Æsir. Maybe they were more immediate descendants of the frost giants and thus were literally snow-white(?). At any rate it would take us some distance beyond Lindow's resignation to the fact that &#xD;&#xA;&gt; There are no indications of Heimdall's membership among the vanir. Nor has his whiteness ever been explained. (2001:170)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If this snowy Vanir theory is at all close to the mark, I suppose it would beg the question of what complexion the Scandinavian/Norse worshippers of the Æsir and the Vanir perceived *themselves* as having. In a lot of scholarship regarding Eurasian religions and myths, particularly in the 19th &amp; 20th centuries, it has been quite popular to perceive the stories about conflicts between older deities and newer ones as indicating waves of invasions by settlers who usurped and assimilated indigenous cultures and stories into their own. If there is any merit to that, perhaps this is what the war between the Vanir and the Æsir represents: friction among at least two different people-groups. This, however, cuts against the usual grain of theories in this field, because in this case it would be a &quot;white[r]&quot; population being invaded by a &quot;dark[er]&quot; group.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding the Elves who live above and beyond the Æsir, the Gylfaginning says that they are brighter than the sun to look at, which resonates with Benjamin Thorpe's translation of Heimdallr as *hvítastr:* &quot;**brightest**&quot; rather than &quot;whitest,&quot; whatever that may mean. Maybe the Vanir are deities who are both more Elven and more Gigantic in nature while the Elves, especially the Svartálfar, are the familial link between the Æsir and the Dwarves.       &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hel** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Gylfaginning, Hel, or Hela, the gigantic goddess who houses and rules over the dead in the northern end of the universe, is described as half dark-blue (or blue-black) and half &quot;flesh-coloured.&quot; This is generally interpreted to mean that half of her body has decayed (or suffered hypothermia in the frigidity of her ice-cold realm?), so perhaps this doesn't count as something exotically different from the complexion of the Norsemen, as Snorri is here probably imagining the same kind of discolouration that would happen to the average mediaeval Scandinavian corpse upon death. I mention it mainly to indicate just one more instance of a Norse deity with a feature that is &quot;fancier than red hair.&quot; Speaking of which, by the way, one of the daughters of Ægir is named Blóðughadda, &quot;Bloody-Hair.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## ANCIENT GREECE ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Depending on which ancient Greek writer you consult, such as Herodotus, several if not most of the deities whom the Greeks worshipped had been imported into their country by Egyptians, Libyans, &quot;Ethiopians,&quot; Phoenicians, Syrians and Mesopotamians in general. The myths themselves bear this out. An example of this is the African versions of Zeus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of these versions is mentioned by Lycophron and John Tzetzes, who call him Zeus Aithiops [Aethiops], a word which has come to be interpreted in a few different ways. It could mean &quot;Glowing,&quot; &quot;Fiery-Eyed&quot; or &quot;Burnt-Faced.&quot; The latter two translations can both be interpreted as references to dark complexion, such as that of the inhabitants of South Sudan, whom the ancient Greeks called *Aithiopes*. &quot;Fiery-Eyed&quot; has sometimes been interpreted as a reference to the stark contrast between the dark skin of the South Sudanese and the whiteness of their eyes' sclerae. William Smith's *Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology* translates Zeus Aithiops as &quot;Black Zeus&quot; and says that he was worshipped as far afield from Africa as the island of Khios, in the middle of the Aegean Sea. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/tmIky.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/bRkd4.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7306" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1744" RevisionGUID="fba38586-954d-4347-90ff-7bca7438b94c" CreationDate="2016-06-18T16:10:37.477" UserId="1632" Comment="deleted 10 characters in body; edited title" Text="I just re-read the story of Zeus and Europa, and in the notes provided by my book, it mentions that the continent of Europe was named after the mythological Europa.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It gave no more explanation, and this confuses me, since Europa was taken to the island of Crete, not the continent of Europe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which leads me to ask, why was Europe named after Europa? I can't figure it out from the myth alone. But I assume there's more to it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks in advance!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7307" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1744" RevisionGUID="fba38586-954d-4347-90ff-7bca7438b94c" CreationDate="2016-06-18T16:10:37.477" UserId="1632" Comment="deleted 10 characters in body; edited title" Text="Why was Europe named after Europa?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7308" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1746" RevisionGUID="5fbf7fcc-885d-4bab-adc6-3f1a4392d88b" CreationDate="2016-06-18T16:16:49.633" UserId="2682" Text="As with other Greco-Roman myths, the connection is often through children, descendants or other family members. While Europa herself does not seem to have made it to the continental mainland, her brother Kadmos [Cadmus] did, and there, in memory of their hometown, he founded a Greek version of the hundred-gated Egyptian city of Thebes, although his rendition had only seven gates. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kadmos' arrival on the mainland and his importation of the alphabet used by their people, the Tyrians and Sidonians, is significant because it only happens on account of his fervent search for his sister. It might be an intentional ironic twist that he never finds her (his sister, the Tyro-Sidonian princess) but he *does* find &quot;her&quot; (Europa, the continent). The mythology makes the effort to locate Kadmos not just in Greece but also further inland and northward in Illyria, where later misadventures end him up. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While Europa's eldest child Minos remained on Crete Island as its king, his daughter Phaidra [Phaedra] became queen of Athens, his brother Rhadamanthys became king of Okaleia in Boiotia [Boeotia] and his sister Alagonia moved to Peloponnesos [Peloponnesus] where the town of Alagonia in Lakedaimonia [Lacedaemonia] was named after her. The idea is, additionally, that the abducted princess Europa is the &quot;mother&quot; of these cities and their peoples. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7309" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1746" RevisionGUID="40163bac-1c50-4f55-ae85-49d2b3c16c0e" CreationDate="2016-06-18T16:26:13.993" UserId="2682" Comment="added 269 characters in body" Text="As with other Greco-Roman myths, the connection is often through children, descendants or other family members. While Europa herself does not seem to have made it to the continental mainland, her brother Kadmos [Cadmus] did, and there, in memory of their hometown, he founded a Greek version of the hundred-gated Egyptian city of Thebes, although his rendition had only seven gates. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kadmos' arrival on the mainland and his importation of the alphabet used by their people, the Tyrians and Sidonians, is significant because it only happens on account of his fervent search for his sister. It might be an intentional ironic twist that he never finds her (his sister, the Tyro-Sidonian princess) but he *does* find &quot;her&quot; (Europa, the continent). The mythology makes the effort to locate Kadmos not just in Greece but also further inland and northward in Illyria, where later misadventures end him up. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While Europa's eldest child Minos remained on Crete Island as its king, his daughter Phaidra [Phaedra] became queen of Athens, his brother Rhadamanthys became king of Okaleia in Boiotia [Boeotia] and his sister Alagonia moved to Peloponnesos [Peloponnesus] where the town of Alagonia in Lakedaimonia [Lacedaemonia] was named after her. The idea is, additionally, that the abducted princess Europa is the &quot;mother&quot; of these cities and their peoples.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a much less dramatic version, by the way, in which all the continents (or rather major regions) with which the Greeks were familiar—Europe, Africa and Anatolia—were named after daughters of the Titan Okeanos [Oceanus]: Europa, Libya and Asia respectively.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7310" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1744" RevisionGUID="f25ed9d0-6c07-40f6-8c89-a3908c2bd4b9" CreationDate="2016-06-18T16:32:42.347" UserId="1632" Comment="deleted 22 characters in body" Text="I just re-read the story of Zeus and Europa, and in the notes provided by my book, it mentions that the continent of Europe was named after the mythological Europa.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It gave no more explanation, and this confuses me, since Europa was taken to the island of Crete, not the continent of Europe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which leads me to ask, why was Europe named after Europa? I can't figure it out from the myth alone. But I assume there's more to it." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7314" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1748" RevisionGUID="16a600a7-015f-468d-9b90-da14fe021030" CreationDate="2016-06-18T20:52:43.920" UserId="2690" Text="enter image description hereIM GONNA SAY SENET--&quot;the games that kids played included a game like checkers as well as Senet and their game pieces were made of small stones and knucklebones (which were really sheep ankle bones). They played a game something like ‘jacks’ and dice with these various game pieces. Kids also had toys to play with including clay rattles that were shaped like animals or people. The wealthy families had toys for their kids made out of wood. These included wooden toys that had moving parts. One might be a hippopotamus that had jaws that would close and open. The higher end dolls were made up of cloth and they were stuffed using papyrus reeds&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7316" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1748" RevisionGUID="bdb4614b-d667-440f-b118-a2f38803c20f" CreationDate="2016-06-18T20:58:05.793" UserId="2690" Comment="added 82 characters in body" Text="[![enter image description here][1]][1][![enter image description here][2]][2]enter image description hereIM GONNA SAY SENET--&quot;the games that kids played included a game like checkers as well as Senet and their game pieces were made of small stones and knucklebones (which were really sheep ankle bones). They played a game something like ‘jacks’ and dice with these various game pieces. Kids also had toys to play with including clay rattles that were shaped like animals or people. The wealthy families had toys for their kids made out of wood. These included wooden toys that had moving parts. One might be a hippopotamus that had jaws that would close and open. The higher end dolls were made up of cloth and they were stuffed using papyrus reeds&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/veXD0.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/BcUVI.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7317" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1749" RevisionGUID="06dec332-02ef-42fb-96bc-9ec28bc4ce8c" CreationDate="2016-06-18T21:23:41.610" UserId="2690" Text="Too far back to remember, the deification of cows has been a puzzle. Are there some possible events in history which would explain this?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7318" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1749" RevisionGUID="06dec332-02ef-42fb-96bc-9ec28bc4ce8c" CreationDate="2016-06-18T21:23:41.610" UserId="2690" Text="WHAT IS THE POSSIBLE ORIGION OF THE DIEFICATION/ WORSHIP OF COWS IN INDIAN?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7319" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1749" RevisionGUID="06dec332-02ef-42fb-96bc-9ec28bc4ce8c" CreationDate="2016-06-18T21:23:41.610" UserId="2690" Text="|mythohistory|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7323" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1751" RevisionGUID="052b25b5-46f4-4f9f-b108-c620ba884dff" CreationDate="2016-06-18T22:07:49.887" UserId="2690" Text="BECAUSE ALL BABOONS HOWL AT THE SUN AT DAWN, WHICH NATURALLY THEY TOOK AS A SIGN OF DIVINE ADORATION ---In the Ancient Egyptian Pyramid texts is a reference to the red color of the sky at dawn.&quot; In a Middle ... The howling of baboons at dawn was interpreted as adoration of the rising sun.&quot; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7324" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1751" RevisionGUID="ee6a443a-be33-4534-a039-f6298173437e" CreationDate="2016-06-18T22:13:04.297" UserId="2690" Comment="added 495 characters in body" Text="BECAUSE ALL BABOONS HOWL AT THE SUN AT DAWN, WHICH NATURALLY THEY TOOK AS A SIGN OF DIVINE ADORATION ---In the Ancient Egyptian Pyramid texts is a reference to the red color of the sky at dawn.&quot; In a Middle ... The howling of Sun-worshipping baboons rise early to catch the African sunrise - and race each other to the top for the best spots&#xD;&#xA;The playful Gelada Baboons are some of Africa's most sociable monkeys&#xD;&#xA;They wake up before daybreak and climb to the highest vantage point they can find&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2583322/Monkey-magic-Playful-baboons-scramble-mountain-enjoy-spectacular-sunrise.html#ixzz4ByIaIiin &#xD;&#xA;Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebookbaboons at dawn was interpreted as adoration of the rising sun.&quot; Also from " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7325" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1749" RevisionGUID="1922d79d-7136-4db9-9457-5536fccbbf34" CreationDate="2016-06-18T22:55:57.533" UserId="2690" Comment="edited title" Text="What is the origon of the worship/ deification of cows in India?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7327" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1752" RevisionGUID="d896b682-71b5-4bbc-bb29-8c7a04b8c401" CreationDate="2016-06-19T02:55:04.840" UserId="2703" Text="*TL;DR*&#xD;&#xA;While the cow has always been treated with veneration in Hindu mythology and literature, the roots of the *sacred* status that it now enjoys are primarily because it was a convenient symbol of mobilization, first to counter the rising tide of Buddhism and then in the nationalist pre-independence movement. Rational arguments based on the economic value of the cow to a rising India were primarily an afterthought justifying more primitive religious and cultural arguments-- though the cow was a great source of wealth and value for millennia. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*The long version*: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A few snippets from the past:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Mythology and Literature**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [Puranas](http://www.bharatadesam.com/scriptures/puranas.php), the earth goddess Prithvi (a cow) was milked by Prithu to end a famine and provide food for humans. It also mentions [Kamadhenu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamadhenu), the mother of cows, the source of prosperity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Rigveda](http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/) calls cows *aghnya*- &quot;that which may not be slaughtered&quot;. Several stanzas indicate that cows were treated with reverence and should be protected. This is possibly because cows were heavily relied upon- for their products (dairy, dung)- and treated as the caretaker of the home- *gau mata*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Many stories revolve around Krishna, a.k.a. Gopala &quot;the cow protector&quot;. Cow milk is stated as Sattvic (i.e. cleansing).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**History**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`2nd century BCE` According to [legend](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellalan#The_Legend_of_Manu_Needhi_Cholan), a Chola king who was a follower on the Manusmriti executed his son to provide justice to a cow.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`1857`&#xD;&#xA;Rumors of cartridges being greased with cow fat lead to a Sepoy mutiny.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`1882`&#xD;&#xA;Swami Dayananda Saraswati establishes Arya Samaj and publishes *Gokarunanidhi* where cow slaughter is opposed as anti-Hindu act. They are helped by the rise in easy transport (trains, buses) and printing presses to spread the message. The first *Gaurakshini sabha* (cow protection society) is set up in Punjab.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`1888`&#xD;&#xA;The Allahabad High Court rules that cows are not sacred as per section 295 of the IPC and hence their slaughter was not illegal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`1893`&#xD;&#xA;An estimated 31-45 riots over six months broke out between Hindus and Muslims, mainly in present-day UP, but also in other parts of the country. 107 people were killed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`1930s-1948` Gandhi - &quot;The central fact of Hinduism is cow protection&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`1950` The Directive Principles of the Constitution of India suggest that cow slaughter should be abolished.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`1966` &quot;Hindu&quot; organizations led by a fasting Shankaracharya demand a ban on cow slaughter as per the (unenforced Directive Principle). A mob of allegedly over 10000 people tried to storm the parliament, eventually rampaging through New Delhi, leading to a 48-hour curfew.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All of this and more is described in great detail in:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Mukul, Akshaya. Gita Press and the Making of Hindu India. HarperCollins Publishers India, 2015.](https://books.google.com/books?id=BOhrCgAAQBAJ)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Further Analysis**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Brown, W. Norman. &quot;The sanctity of the cow in Hinduism.&quot; The Madras University Journal 28.29 (1957).](http://dev.epw.in/system/files/pdf/1964_16/5-6-7/the_sanctity_of_the_cow_in_hinduism.pdf)-- cows were offered in sacrifices, and were not inviolable in Vedic times. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ambedkar, Bhimrao R. &quot;Untouchability, the Dead Cow and the Brahmin.&quot; Collected Works of BR Ambedkar 7 (1979): 185-207.](http://navayana.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/jhaexcerpt.pdf) -- *For the Brahmin everyday was a beef-steak day. The Brahmins were therefore the greatest beef-eaters* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Describes how the roots of Brahmins vegetarianism lies in the conflict between Buddhism and Brahmanism. Eventually, the &quot;holy cow&quot; became a cultural symbol for mobilizing Hindu nationalists.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You may also wish to read [this post](http://theiskra.weebly.com/concepts-and-debates/cow-caste-and-communalism) describing how the cow gained political significance in modern India. [This paper](http://www.jstor.org/stable/1178915?seq=1) describes a debate on whether the cow is sacred for &quot;irrational&quot; or &quot;calorific&quot; reasons." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7328" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1749" RevisionGUID="1154c7eb-6f0c-4509-9c2c-4eace838fb04" CreationDate="2016-06-19T05:43:15.263" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved grammar and spellingin title and body. Addedone word to title and six words in body." Text="Too far back to remember, the deification of cows in India seems to have existed. Are there some possible events in history which would explain this?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7329" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1749" RevisionGUID="1154c7eb-6f0c-4509-9c2c-4eace838fb04" CreationDate="2016-06-19T05:43:15.263" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved grammar and spellingin title and body. Addedone word to title and six words in body." Text="What is the origin of the worship or deification of cows in India?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7330" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1749" RevisionGUID="1154c7eb-6f0c-4509-9c2c-4eace838fb04" CreationDate="2016-06-19T05:43:15.263" Comment="Proposed by 1241 approved by 42, 467 edit id of 326" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7331" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1277" RevisionGUID="6dcccf64-e1e7-4f4c-ba15-17b2b592344c" CreationDate="2016-06-19T12:44:54.660" UserId="2690" Comment="added more info" Text="Why were baboons famous in Egypt? They were sometimes kept as pets, had a god named for them, but did they have any significance? ANOTHER EXAMPLE--Sun-worshipping baboons rise early to catch the African sunrise - and race each other to the top for the best spots&#xD;&#xA;The playful Gelada Baboons are some of Africa's most sociable monkeys&#xD;&#xA;They wake up before daybreak and climb to the highest vantage point they can find&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2583322/Monkey-magic-Playful-baboons-scramble-mountain-enjoy-spectacular-sunrise.html#ixzz4ByIaIiin &#xD;&#xA;Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7332" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1277" RevisionGUID="6dcccf64-e1e7-4f4c-ba15-17b2b592344c" CreationDate="2016-06-19T12:44:54.660" Comment="Proposed by 2690 approved by 967 edit id of 325" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7333" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1277" RevisionGUID="87de9def-dd92-4df3-970b-715429013acb" CreationDate="2016-06-19T12:45:23.220" UserId="967" Comment="added 6 characters in body" Text="Why were baboons famous in Egypt? They were sometimes kept as pets, had a god named for them, but did they have any significance? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;ANOTHER EXAMPLE--Sun-worshipping baboons rise early to catch the African sunrise - and race each other to the top for the best spots&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The playful Gelada Baboons are some of Africa's most sociable monkeys&#xD;&#xA;They wake up before daybreak and climb to the highest vantage point they can find&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2583322/Monkey-magic-Playful-baboons-scramble-mountain-enjoy-spectacular-sunrise.html#ixzz4ByIaIiin &#xD;&#xA;Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7334" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1753" RevisionGUID="4432f97b-ba9a-43e0-9f73-b089375cb02b" CreationDate="2016-06-19T16:51:55.697" UserId="2682" Text="Their most popular origin story is the gory version in Hesiod's *Theogony*, in which they are born from Gaia, the Earth, when she is impregnated by the blood shed by Ouranos [Uranus, the &quot;Sky&quot;] while he is being castrated by his own son the Titan Kronos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aeschylus, however, in his play *Eumenides*, whose title is a euphemistic epithet of the Erinnyes, says that they were born the same way most of the vices and evils which afflict the human race were born, when Nyx, &quot;Night,&quot; without the assistance of male seed, engendered Death, Old Age, Pain, Deceit, Envy, Injustice and various other such daimones. Among these were the Erinnyes. This is also Lycophron's version of their origin while the Roman poets Virgil and Ovid have the Furiæ as the daughters of Nox (the Roman Nyx). This version makes these goddesses' older than (or at least as old as) the Titans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Writing in Latin, Hyginus lists the Furiæ together with the Titans and Centimani (&quot;Hundred-Handers&quot;) as though they are fairly natural offspring of Cælus and Terra [the Roman equivalents of Ouranos and Gaia respectively], making no mention of the gory account we are offered by Hesiod. Hyginus, however, does have a rather ambiguous writing style, and so Robert Graves, in his book *The Greek Myths*, interprets that passage of Hyginus' *Preface* as meaning that the Furiæ are the offspring of Terra by Æther (the bright, clear air which exists above the clouds and which only the gods can breathe safely; the ancient conception of ozone, so it would seem). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to two Orphic hymns, the Erinnyes are the daughters of Haides [Hades] and Persephone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Roman writer Statius, in the *Thebaid*, says that the father of the Furiæ is Erebus, who would usually be &quot;Darkness,&quot; the husband of Nox, but Aaron Atsma of [The Theoi Project](http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Erinyes.html), for some reason, interprets this as a reference to Dis (the Roman Haides).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another Roman, Valerius Flaccus, in Book 1 of his epic *Argonautica*, makes a passing reference to Pœna, &quot;Retribution&quot; [from whom we get the English word *subpoena*], being the mother of the Furiæ.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Combining the last two Roman sources would thus give us &quot;Erebus&quot; and Pœna as the parents of these goddesses.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While the Erinnyes are certainly portrayed as cruel and unrelenting, they are, however, never presented as irrational monsters nor as especially mystical in an inexplicable way. They are in fact the personification of an aspect of culture that was (and actually still is) perceived as necessary in order for society to continue running in the face of offences which might be committed against authority figures, basic family structures and what is considered to be the natural order of things in general. They represent the dark or violent side of balancing things out by righting wrongs through, e.g., blood vengeance for the murder of a close relative, a concept which is commonplace in many other cultures around the world (see the rules about the Avenger of Blood in the Mosaic Law code [Numbers 25, Deuteronomy 19 &amp; Joshua 20], for instance)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7335" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1754" RevisionGUID="0cb5c270-2009-428d-962f-a32668e60469" CreationDate="2016-06-19T17:42:57.990" UserId="2682" Text="Since your examples are from Roman and Greek myth, I presume your focus is exclusively on those mythologies. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dionysus and his maternal relatives, such as his mother, aunts, uncles, cousins and his grandparents Cadmus and Harmonia (as well as his great-uncle Iasion), have a mysterious and ambiguous relationship with immortality (and mortality). Almost all these characters acquire immortality (of some sort) at some point through some especially unorthodox means in their adventures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dionysus' mother Semele becomes the goddess Thyone, Semele's sister Ino becomes the goddess Leucothea and Ino's son Melicertes becomes the god Palaemon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Semele's and Ino's sister Autonoe eventually attains immortality after having been married to the minor deity Aristaeus, who himself seems to originally have been a mortal. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Harmonia, the mother of Semele, Ino and Autonoe, is the daughter of Ares and Aphrodite but seems to somehow start of as a mortal being raised by the Pleiad Electra, a lover of Zeus, together with Iasion, a son of Zeus and Electra. Iasion himself *sort of* becomes a minor god after being killed by his own father. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's kind of difficult to tell if Plutus and Philomelus, Iasion's sons by Demeter, are considered immortal from birth or if they only gradually become this way similarly to their half-brother Dionysus.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dionysus made his second cousin Ariadne into a goddess either before or after she killed herself on Naxos Island, whereupon he married her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For full details on these and many others in general, check out Aaron Atsma's [Complete List of Deified Men and Women in Greek Mythology](http://www.theoi.com/greek-mythology/deified-mortals.html), whom he calls the *Apotheothenai*." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7337" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1753" RevisionGUID="c787f451-aec0-4b85-a8f5-8897848a5fcb" CreationDate="2016-06-19T17:51:30.503" UserId="2682" Comment="added 11 characters in body" Text="Their most popular origin story is the gory version in Hesiod's *Theogony*, in which they are born from Gaia, the Earth, when she is impregnated by the blood shed by Ouranos [Uranus, the &quot;Sky&quot;] while he is being castrated by his own son the Titan Kronos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aeschylus, however, in his play *Eumenides*, whose title is a euphemistic epithet of the Erinnyes, says that they were born the same way most of the vices and evils which afflict the human race were born, when Nyx, &quot;Night,&quot; without the assistance of male seed, engendered Death, Old Age, Pain, Deceit, Envy, Injustice and various other such daimones. Among these were the Erinnyes. This is also Lycophron's version of their origin while the Roman poets Virgil and Ovid have the Furiæ as the daughters of Nox (the Roman Nyx). This version makes these goddesses older than (or at least as old as) the Titans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Writing in Latin, Hyginus lists the Furiæ together with the Titans and Centimani (&quot;Hundred-Handers&quot;) as though they are fairly natural offspring of Cælus and Terra [the Roman equivalents of Ouranos and Gaia respectively], making no mention of the violent account we are offered by Hesiod. Hyginus, however, does have a rather ambiguous writing style, and so Robert Graves, in his book *The Greek Myths*, interprets that passage of Hyginus' *Preface* as meaning that the Furiæ are the offspring of Terra by Æther (the bright, clear air which exists above the clouds and which only the gods can breathe safely; the ancient conception of ozone, so it would seem). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to two Orphic hymns, the Erinnyes are the daughters of Haides [Hades] and Persephone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Roman writer Statius, in the *Thebaid*, says that the father of the Furiæ is Erebus, who would usually be &quot;Darkness,&quot; the husband of Nox, but Aaron Atsma of [The Theoi Project](http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Erinyes.html), for some reason, interprets this as a reference to Dis (the Roman Haides).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another Roman, Valerius Flaccus, in Book 1 of his epic *Argonautica*, makes a passing reference to Pœna, &quot;Retribution&quot; [from whom we get the English word *subpoena*], being the mother of the Furiæ.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Combining the last two Roman sources would thus give us &quot;Erebus&quot; and Pœna as the parents of these goddesses.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While the Erinnyes are certainly portrayed as cruel and unrelenting, they are, however, never presented as irrational monsters nor as especially mystical in an inexplicable way. They are in fact the personification of an aspect of culture that was (and actually still is) perceived as necessary in order for society to continue functioning in the face of offences which might be committed against authority figures, basic family structures, and whatever is considered to be the natural order of things in general. They represent the dark or violent side of balancing things out by righting wrongs through, e.g., blood vengeance for the murder of a close relative, a concept which is commonplace in many other cultures around the world (see the rules about the Avenger of Blood in the Mosaic Law code [Numbers 25, Deuteronomy 19 &amp; Joshua 20], for instance)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7338" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1748" RevisionGUID="a822bffe-acec-4f48-881b-749e709ebd3b" CreationDate="2016-06-19T17:52:26.347" UserId="42" Comment="added 93 characters in body" Text="[![enter image description here][1]][1][![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***I'M GONNA SAY SENET***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The games that kids played included a game like checkers as well as Senet and their game pieces were made of small stones and knucklebones (which were really sheep ankle bones). They played a game something like ‘jacks’ and dice with these various game pieces. Kids also had toys to play with including clay rattles that were shaped like animals or people. The wealthy families had toys for their kids made out of wood. These included wooden toys that had moving parts. One might be a hippopotamus that had jaws that would close and open. The higher end dolls were made up of cloth and they were stuffed using papyrus reeds.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Ancient Egyptian Games][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/veXD0.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/BcUVI.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.historyforkids.net/ancient-egyptian-games.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7339" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1755" RevisionGUID="c1284adb-a0c5-400d-85cf-eb519adcba23" CreationDate="2016-06-19T20:03:06.743" UserId="2682" Text="In Orphic cosmogony, which is a somewhat more esoteric version of the mainstream Olympian accounts, Khaos [Chaos] emerged from or was given birth by a being named Aion [Aeon], who is mentioned by Quintus of Smyrna and Nonnus of Panopolis. In modern English, Aion is very frequently translated &quot;Eternity,&quot; even though this not really what the word originally meant. At first it denoted a &quot;Lifespan&quot; (the lifespan of anything, whether of something long-lived like a tribe of people or an empire; or of something as short-lived as a housefly [= seven days of life]). It eventually came to embody the concept of time that is bigger than ordinary linear chronology as experienced by mortals and eventually into what we think of today as &quot;Eternity,&quot; even though Latin *Æternitas* actually doesn't mean &quot;time without end&quot; either (but that's another story).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nonnus also mentions another entity named Khronos [Chronus, &quot;Time&quot;], who is often conflated/confounded with the Titan Kronos (such as in Cicero's *De natura deorum*). Aaron Atsma, on his website [The Theoi Project](http://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Khronos.html), identifies Khronos with Aion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The manner in which Khaos engendered his/her/its offspring is not explained but it should be safe to assume that it is not quite unlike how Gaia [Earth] and Nyx [Night] produced a few different broods of offspring &quot;without the assistance of male seed.&quot; The idea, right or wrong, might be, as with modern concepts like the Big Bang theory, that the universe began in an extremely energetic and &quot;pregnant&quot; state, almost like whatever was there at first could not help but produce numerous lifeforms in order to exert or exercise its energies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the other hand, however, the Khaos passage in Hesiod's *Theogony* has been interpreted by some, like Atsma, to be saying, not that Khaos gave birth to the first entities, rather that Khaos just happened to be the very first entity to exist (at least in *this* universe) and then others, such as Nyx and Gaia, also emerged of the same nothingness quite independently of Khaos sometime afterwards.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Roman writer Hyginus offers his own theogony in which he says that Chaos was produced by Caligine, &quot;Fog&quot; [i.e. mists of darkness]. To him, so it would seem, Chaos is male and Caligine is female. The two get married and together become the parents of Erebus (Darkness) and Nox (&quot;Night,&quot; the Roman Nyx). Erebus and Nox then become the parents of Æther (Aether) and Diēs (&quot;Day[time],&quot; the Roman Hemera). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Æther and Diēs then become the parents of Cælus (&quot;Sky,&quot; whom the Greeks called Ouranos) and Terra (&quot;Earth,&quot; the Roman Gaia). Cælus and Terra also get married and their offspring correspond by and large to the Greek version of their story, the main group being the Titans, who will then give rise to the Olympians. One notable deviation is that Æther also consorts with his own daughter Terra, and the first of their children is Tartarus, the Underworld Abyss.          " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7340" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1420" RevisionGUID="74dd5eff-9bdd-4661-a6d3-e0ec7cde26d4" CreationDate="2016-06-19T20:40:30.990" UserId="967" Comment="edited body" Text="Famous demi-gods were sometimes turned into gods. Namely:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Heracles&#xD;&#xA;- Dionysus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But were there any mortals that were turned into gods, or immortal?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7341" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1754" RevisionGUID="3a1a4308-9396-45af-802b-a2bac2b1235d" CreationDate="2016-06-19T23:42:05.590" UserId="2682" Comment="added 27 characters in body" Text="Since your examples are Greek, I presume your focus is exclusively on that mythology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dionysus and his maternal relatives, such as his mother, aunts, uncles, cousins and his grandparents Cadmus and Harmonia (as well as his great-uncle Iasion), have a mysterious and ambiguous relationship with immortality (and mortality). Almost all these characters acquire immortality (of some sort) at some point through some especially unorthodox means in their adventures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dionysus' mother Semele becomes the goddess Thyone, Semele's sister Ino becomes the goddess Leucothea and Ino's son Melicertes becomes the god Palaemon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Semele's and Ino's sister Autonoe eventually attains immortality after having been married to the minor deity Aristaeus, who himself seems to originally have been a mortal like his brothers Idmon and Autuchus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Harmonia, the mother of Semele, Ino and Autonoe, is the daughter of Ares and Aphrodite but seems to somehow start of as a mortal being raised by the Pleiad Electra, a lover of Zeus, together with Iasion, a son of Zeus and Electra. Iasion himself *sort of* becomes a minor god after being killed by his own father. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's kind of difficult to tell if Plutus and Philomelus, Iasion's sons by Demeter, are considered immortal from birth or if they only gradually become this way similarly to their half-brother Dionysus.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dionysus made his second cousin Ariadne into a goddess either before or after she killed herself on Naxos Island, whereupon he married her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For full details on these and many others in general, check out Aaron Atsma's [Complete List of Deified Men and Women in Greek Mythology](http://www.theoi.com/greek-mythology/deified-mortals.html), whom he calls the *Apotheothenai*." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7344" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1756" RevisionGUID="f8e67b00-2e8f-45dd-ac17-ca5af6f0d55b" CreationDate="2016-06-20T03:50:06.930" UserId="2706" Text="In some accounts I've read, the Greeks thought Apollo drove the chariot of the sun across the sky, in others it was Helios. Obviously they didn't see two suns rise and fall back then; How did these conflicting versions come about? Did one god originally get the credit and if so, when did lore of the other start to be told?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7345" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1756" RevisionGUID="f8e67b00-2e8f-45dd-ac17-ca5af6f0d55b" CreationDate="2016-06-20T03:50:06.930" UserId="2706" Text="Was it Apollo or Helios?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7346" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1756" RevisionGUID="f8e67b00-2e8f-45dd-ac17-ca5af6f0d55b" CreationDate="2016-06-20T03:50:06.930" UserId="2706" Text="|greek|olympians|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7347" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1757" RevisionGUID="accfe8dc-bb1c-4e5c-9518-b35ae56b7491" CreationDate="2016-06-20T06:32:04.257" UserId="1624" Text="Apollo is initially the god of song, music and poetry, but considered as a solar-god too. Since it is one of the 12 leading god, he took the place of Helios many times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This confusion comes from a nickname, *Phoebus*, which means &quot;the shiny&quot;. The 2 gods had this nickname.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But **the one who was driving** the chariot of the sun, pulled by 4 horses (Pyroïs, Eoos Aethon and Phlégon), **was Helios**, which was going from the island of Aea to the land of the Hesperides.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7348" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1758" RevisionGUID="c9490dff-27bd-44e2-8fbc-f1d212add106" CreationDate="2016-06-20T08:50:09.350" UserId="2682" Text="All the three peoples in question are just as human as most others who inhabit the cosmos of Greek myth, granted that in this mythology all human beings are somewhat &quot;magical&quot; and of virtually comicbook divine origin. The Greeks believed that pretty much every tribe and nation in the world was descended from a child of one of their gods, which would mean that, technically, the very first of those peoples, especially their monarchs, were barely human, if at all. They were something beyond that: the bridge between God, or the gods, and whatever we are now.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What makes peoples like Kimmerioi [Cimmerians], Hyperboreoi [Hyperboreans] and Aithiopes [Ethiopians] special is more so their lifestyles, lifespans and/or geographical locations. Peoples living in wintry places have tended to romanticise parts of the world which do not experience the phenomenon called winter which occurs outside the tropics. This idealisation seems to be what transpired with the Aithiopes of Greek myth, who literally still today live in a land of perpetual summer and spring. It is possible that with the Hyperboreoi, who lived in a land far north of Greece, the mythographers were referring to a tropical region on the other side of the planet, regarding which they had acquired a bit of vague information (and which would be somewhere on the shores of the Pacific Ocean). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whatever the case that can be made on that is, the dwelling-places in which Hyperboreoi and Aithiopes dwelt were so desirable that their lifestyles were imagined as virtually indistinguishable from those of the gods or from the dead who ended up on the Blessed Islands, which in themselves sound to me quite Polynesian or like tourist attractions on the East African coast.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;[![Watamu, Kenya][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;*Watamu Town, Kenya*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hence the idea either that these peoples were immortal or extremely long-lived and that even if they died, like the Hyperboreoi, e.g., death was a lovely affair involving metamorphosis into a swan in their local Eridanos River, the most beautiful stream of water in the world. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### THE KIMMERIOI ###&#xD;&#xA;With the Kimmerioi the opposite extreme was imagined in terms of their climate, which was perpetually dark, cold and misty, and in the middle of which, according to Ovid's *Metamorphoses*, Sleep and Death themselves made their home. Not all the myths agree in placing the Kimmerioi in such a situation, but, on account of the ones which do, one might in fact be led to consider the question of how a group of humans could survive in such conditions, how they ended up there in the first place, and why they would remain thus. Granted that there *are* inhabited parts of the world (much farther away than the myths locate the Kimmerioi, though) in which it is consecutive nighttime for long stretches of time, up to six months. This is, however, obversely interrupted by reciprocal lengths of consecutive daytime.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A.S. Kline's website [Poetry in Translation](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/OdindexBCDE.htm#Cimmerians) summarises the Kimmerioi as &quot;People living near the entrance to Hades... Herodotus places them in Scythia, and the modern name Crimea is perhaps derived from these sources. But Homer may have used the name to encompass all the peoples of Northern Europe.&quot; The Kimmerioi are mentioned both by Pliny the Elder and by Herodotus in close connection with the Skythoi [Scythians], who it is easy to locate in certain parts of Eastern Europe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### THE AITHIOPES &amp; THE HYPERBOREOI ###&#xD;&#xA;In Hesiod's *Catalogues of Women*, Gaia [the Earth] consorts both with her grandson the sea-god Poseidon and with her great-grandson Epaphos, the latter of whom is the Greek rendition of the Egyptian god Hapi [Apis]. Together they produce a number of children and nations inhabiting Africa and a few other places. Among these offspring are: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Aithiops, ancestor of the **Aithiopes**, whose domain stretched from South Sudan, and possibly Kenya, to India and southern Europe. (The term *Aithiopes* sometimes seems to have incorporated certain Indian and Arabian tribes, such as the Blemmyēs in Nonnus' epic the *Dionysiaka* [300s/400s AD], although according to the geographer Strabo [1st century BC—1st century AD], those Aithiopes &quot;who are in Asia, and those who are in Africa, do not differ from each other.&quot;) By the time of the Egyptian merchant Kosmas Indikopleustes, &quot;Cosmas Who Sailed to India&quot; [500s AD], *Aithiopes* denoted African peoples as far south as Zimbabwe. According to the Roman writer Pliny the Elder, this vast land &quot;Aethiopia&quot; was named after Aethiops, a son of the blacksmith-god Vulcan [the Roman Hephaistos].      &#xD;&#xA; - Libys, ancestor of the Libyēs [Libyans]  &#xD;&#xA; - Pygmaioi, &quot;Pygmies,&quot; who lived in Libya and Morocco and are&#xD;&#xA;   connected with skilled metallurgy [like the Svartálfar, &quot;Black Elves,&quot; of&#xD;&#xA;   Norse mythology]&#xD;&#xA; - Melanokhrotoi, &quot;Blackskins,&quot; more Svartálf-like people? &#xD;&#xA;[![Osiris the Lord of Perfect Black][2]][2] &#xD;&#xA;*or like (per one of this god's titles) Osiris* &quot;the Lord of Perfect Black&quot;?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Katoudaioi, [gnomes?] who lived underground, perhaps somewhere in Tunisia (and maybe the same as an ethnic group mentioned by Josephus as descended from Abraham and Keturah)&#xD;&#xA; - Hemikynoi, &quot;Half-Dogs,&quot; a race of Anubis-like dog-headed people &#xD;&#xA;[![St Christopher Cynocephalus][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;*in mediaeval Europe it was supposed that St Christopher had been one of them*&#xD;&#xA; - Skythes, ancestor of the **Skythoi**, closely associated with the **Kimmerioi**, even said to be the same as them. (In another version Skythes is a son of the hero Herakles [Hercules], and his descendants grow into the strongest nation of ancient southern Russia.)&#xD;&#xA; - and the **Hyperboreoi**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of the 8 groups listed above, only one, the Hemikynoi, for sure is not human (or is part human and part canine). My descriptions of the Melanokhrotoi and Katoudaioi are merely attempted interpretations which might be wrong, but my point being that in general this passage of the Catalogues is certainly intended to supply the ancestral origin of various ordinary human tribes in of the Mediterranean Basin and around it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no myth I'm aware of which indicates that any of these peoples existed before other humans necessarily. In fact, if the Catalogues are the main source for their origin, then we know for certain that, going by the chronology of the myths, all these peoples are fairly young in comparison to other groups of the world. If they are descended from Epaphos, then they would've been born sometime after the Flood, since Epaphos is supposed to have survived that. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### The Kingdom of Aithiopia ###&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The one discrepancy contained therein is that Epaphos' close friend and relative Phaethon was a prince of Aithiopia. This Phaethon is the son of the Sun who crashed to Earth and burned attempting to drive his father's flaming chariot. It is his own country to which Phaethon is said to have done the most damage with the Sun's fire, crashing the chariot into what is now the Sahara Desert. Phaethon's mother the Oceanid Klymene had divorced the Sun and married King Merops of Aithiopia, becoming its queen. Merops seems to have been a regular mortal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Centuries later Poseidon's daughter the sea-goddess Benthesikyme also married an Aithiopian king, this one named Enalos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sometime before that, Perseus (who slew the Gorgon Medusa) married Princess Andromeda of Aithiopia. Andromeda's parents Kepheus and Kassiopeia, who, while closely descended from Zeus and Poseidon, were rather human. They also may have held some territory in the lands of the Canaanites and the Philistines, on the border of Israel.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perses, the eldest child of Perseus and Andromeda, became king of Aithiopia when he grew up and then he also founded the Persian Empire, named after himself. Two of Perses' younger brothers were close ancestors of Herakles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### The Kingdom of Hyperborea ###&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Pindar's description of the fabulously paradisaical land beyond the northern Rhipaion mountains it is always party-time among the Hyperboreoi, who are both into their music and their magic, as well as dancing. They also, however, take quite seriously the annual sacrifice to Apollon [Apollo], with which they at first sent out a delegation of two of their young women together with five men who were to deliver the sacrifice to Delos, half a world away from them, beyond the nigh-impassable mountain barrier, to the Cycladic island of Delos which was sacred to the god. The delegation never made it back, however (their people seem to have thought that they were murdered), so they opted to have the sacrifice couriered via a chain network of peoples starting with their closest neighbours going towards Delos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zabios was a king of Hyperborea whose daughter Themisto bore Apollon a son, Galeus. The oracle of Zeus at Dodona instructed Galeus to migrate from Hyperborea to Sicily where he built a sanctuary to his father Apollon. He was the ancestor of the Galeotai, a family of Sicilian soothsayers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The names of several other Hyperboreoi occur in the mythology. The only ones among them that don't seem to be human are the children of Boreas himself: three sons who were, according to Aaron Atsma on [The Theoi Project](http://www.theoi.com/Gigante/GigantesHyperboreades.html), winged, gigantic, immortal high priests of Apollon who served the Hyperboreoi; and three daughters Oupis, Hekaerge and Loxo, described as hunter nymphs and who introduced the worship of Artemis to Delos Island.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I have said this much of the Hyperboreans, and let it suffice; for I&#xD;&#xA;&gt; do not tell the story of that Abaris, alleged to be a Hyperborean, who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; carried the [flying] arrow over the whole world, fasting all the while. But if&#xD;&#xA;&gt; there are men beyond Boreas [the North Wind], then there are others&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beyond the south. And I laugh to see how many have before now drawn&#xD;&#xA;&gt; maps of the world, not one of them reasonably; for they draw the world&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as round as if fashioned by compasses, encircled by the Okeanos River,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and Asia and Europe of a like extent. For myself, I will in a few&#xD;&#xA;&gt; words indicate the extent of the two, and how each should be drawn.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herodotus, *Histories* 4.36  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/8FRJ9.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/FU2Ru.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/fVNHK.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7350" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1758" RevisionGUID="ac328b69-9778-43ba-97f7-2313eeab6641" CreationDate="2016-06-20T09:18:32.907" UserId="2682" Comment="added 46 characters in body" Text="All the three peoples in question are just as human as most others who inhabit the cosmos of Greek myth, granted that in this mythology all human beings are somewhat &quot;magical&quot; and of virtually comicbook divine origin. The Greeks believed that pretty much every tribe and nation in the world was descended from a child of one of their gods, which would mean that, technically, the very first of those peoples, especially their monarchs, were barely human, if at all. They were something beyond that: the bridge between God, or the gods, and whatever we are now.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What makes peoples like Kimmerioi [Cimmerians], Hyperboreoi [Hyperboreans] and Aithiopes [Ethiopians] special is more so their lifestyles, lifespans and/or geographical locations. Peoples living in wintry places have tended to romanticise parts of the world which do not experience the phenomenon called winter which occurs outside the tropics. This idealisation seems to be what transpired with the Aithiopes of Greek myth, who literally still today live in a land of perpetual summer and spring. It is possible that with the Hyperboreoi, who lived in a land far north of Greece, the mythographers were referring to a tropical region on the other side of the planet, regarding which they had acquired a bit of vague information (and which would be somewhere on the shores of the Pacific Ocean). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whatever the case that can be made on that is, the dwelling-places in which Hyperboreoi and Aithiopes dwelt were so desirable that their lifestyles were imagined as virtually indistinguishable from those of the gods or from the dead who ended up on the Blessed Islands, which in themselves sound to me quite Polynesian or like tourist attractions on the East African coast.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;[![Watamu, Kenya][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;*Watamu Town, Kenya*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hence the idea either that these peoples were immortal or extremely long-lived and that even if they died, like the Hyperboreoi, e.g., death was a lovely affair involving metamorphosis into a swan in their local Eridanos River, the most beautiful stream of water in the world. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### THE KIMMERIOI ###&#xD;&#xA;With the Kimmerioi the opposite extreme was imagined in terms of their climate, which was perpetually dark, cold and misty, and in the middle of which, according to Ovid's *Metamorphoses*, Sleep and Death themselves made their home. Not all the myths agree in placing the Kimmerioi in such a situation, but, on account of the ones which do, one might in fact be led to consider the question of how a group of humans could survive in such conditions, how they ended up there in the first place, and why they would remain thus. Granted that there *are* inhabited parts of the world (much farther away than the myths locate the Kimmerioi, though) in which it is consecutive nighttime for long stretches of time, up to six months. This is, however, obversely interrupted by reciprocal lengths of consecutive daytime.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A.S. Kline's website [Poetry in Translation](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/OdindexBCDE.htm#Cimmerians) summarises the Kimmerioi as &quot;People living near the entrance to Hades... Herodotus places them in Scythia, and the modern name Crimea is perhaps derived from these sources. But Homer may have used the name to encompass all the peoples of Northern Europe.&quot; The Kimmerioi are mentioned both by Pliny the Elder and by Herodotus in close connection with the Skythoi [Scythians], who it is easy to locate in certain parts of Eastern Europe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### THE AITHIOPES &amp; THE HYPERBOREOI ###&#xD;&#xA;In Hesiod's *Catalogues of Women*, Gaia [the Earth] consorts both with her grandson the sea-god Poseidon and with her great-grandson Epaphos, the latter of whom is the Greek rendition of the Egyptian god Hapi [Apis]. Together they produce a number of children and nations inhabiting Africa and a few other places. Among these offspring are: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Aithiops, ancestor of the **Aithiopes**, whose domain stretched from South Sudan, and possibly Kenya, to India and southern Europe. (The term *Aithiopes* sometimes seems to have incorporated certain Indian and Arabian tribes, such as the Blemmyēs in Nonnus' epic the *Dionysiaka* [300s/400s AD], although according to the geographer Strabo [1st century BC—1st century AD], those Aithiopes &quot;who are in Asia, and those who are in Africa, do not differ from each other.&quot;) By the time of the Egyptian merchant Kosmas Indikopleustes, &quot;Cosmas Who Sailed to India&quot; [500s AD], *Aithiopes* denoted African peoples as far south as Zimbabwe. According to the Roman writer Pliny the Elder, this vast land &quot;Aethiopia&quot; was named after Aethiops, a son of the blacksmith-god Vulcan [the Roman Hephaistos].      &#xD;&#xA; - Libys, ancestor of the Libyēs [Libyans]  &#xD;&#xA; - Pygmaioi, &quot;Pygmies,&quot; who lived in Libya and Morocco and are&#xD;&#xA;   connected with skilled metallurgy [like the Svartálfar, &quot;Black Elves,&quot; of&#xD;&#xA;   Norse mythology]&#xD;&#xA; - Melanokhrotoi, &quot;Blackskins,&quot; more Svartálf-like people? &#xD;&#xA;[![Osiris the Lord of Perfect Black][2]][2] &#xD;&#xA;*or like (per one of this god's titles) Osiris* &quot;the Lord of Perfect Black&quot;?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Katoudaioi, [gnomes?] who lived underground, perhaps somewhere in Tunisia (and maybe the same as an ethnic group mentioned by Josephus as descended from Abraham and Keturah)&#xD;&#xA; - Hemikynoi, &quot;Half-Dogs,&quot; a race of Anubis-like dog-headed people &#xD;&#xA;[![St Christopher Cynocephalus][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;*in mediaeval Europe it was supposed that St Christopher had been one of them*&#xD;&#xA; - Skythes, ancestor of the **Skythoi**, closely associated with the **Kimmerioi**, even said to be the same as them. (In another version Skythes is a son of the hero Herakles [Hercules], and his descendants grow into the strongest nation of ancient southern Russia.)&#xD;&#xA; - and the **Hyperboreoi**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of the 8 groups listed above, only one, the Hemikynoi, for sure is not human (or is part human and part canine). My descriptions of the Melanokhrotoi and Katoudaioi are merely attempted interpretations which might be wrong, but my point being that in general this passage of the Catalogues is certainly intended to supply the ancestral origin of various ordinary human tribes in the Mediterranean Basin and around it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no myth I'm aware of which indicates that any of these peoples existed before other humans necessarily. In fact, if the Catalogues are the main source for their origin story, then we know for certain that, going by the chronology of the myths, all these peoples are fairly young in comparison to other groups of the world. If they are descended from Epaphos, then they would've been born sometime after the Flood, since Epaphos is supposed to have survived that. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### The Kingdom of Aithiopia ###&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The one discrepancy contained therein is that Epaphos' close friend and relative Phaethon was a prince of Aithiopia. This Phaethon is the son of the Sun who crashed to Earth and burned attempting to drive his father's flaming chariot. It is his own land to which Phaethon is said to have done the most damage with the Sun's fire, crashing the chariot into what is now the Sahara Desert. Phaethon's mother the Oceanid Klymene had divorced the Sun and married King Merops of Aithiopia, becoming an African queen. Merops seems to have been a regular mortal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Centuries later, Poseidon's daughter the sea-goddess Benthesikyme also married an Aithiopian king, this one named Enalos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A few generations before the reign of Enalos, Perseus (who slew the Gorgon Medusa) married Princess Andromeda of Aithiopia. Andromeda's parents Kepheus and Kassiopeia, who, while closely descended from Zeus and Poseidon, were rather human. They also may have held some territory in the lands of the Canaanites and the Philistines, on the border of Israel.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perses, the eldest child of Perseus and Andromeda, became king of Aithiopia when he grew up and then he also founded the Persian Empire, named after himself. Two of Perses' younger brothers were close ancestors of Herakles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### The Kingdom of Hyperborea ###&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Pindar's description of the fabulously paradisaical land beyond the northern Rhipaion mountains it is always party-time among the Hyperboreoi, who are into both their music and their magic, as well as dancing. They also, however, take quite seriously the annual sacrifice to Apollon [Apollo], with which they at first sent out a delegation of two of their young women together with five men who were to deliver the sacrifice to Delos, half a world away from them, beyond the nigh-impassable mountain barrier, to the Cycladic island of Delos which was sacred to the god. The delegation never made it back, however, and the Hyperboreoi seem to have thought that they had been murdered, so they opted to have the sacrifice couriered instead, via a chain network of peoples starting with their closest neighbours going towards Delos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zabios was a king of Hyperborea whose daughter Themisto bore Apollon a son, Galeus. The oracle of Zeus at Dodona instructed Galeus to migrate from Hyperborea to Sicily where he built a sanctuary to his father Apollon. He was the ancestor of the Galeotai, a family of Sicilian soothsayers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The names of several other Hyperboreoi occur in the mythology. The only ones among them that don't seem to be human are the children of Boreas himself: three sons who were, according to Aaron Atsma on [The Theoi Project](http://www.theoi.com/Gigante/GigantesHyperboreades.html), winged, gigantic, immortal high priests of Apollon who served the Hyperboreoi; and three daughters Oupis, Hekaerge and Loxo, described as hunter nymphs who introduced the worship of Artemis to Delos Island.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I have said this much of the Hyperboreoi, and let it suffice; for I&#xD;&#xA;&gt; do not tell the story of that Abaris, alleged to be a Hyperboreos, who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; carried the [flying] arrow over the whole world, fasting all the while. But if&#xD;&#xA;&gt; there are men beyond Boreas [the North Wind], then there are others&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beyond the south. And I laugh to see how many have before now drawn&#xD;&#xA;&gt; maps of the world, not one of them reasonably; for they draw the world&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as round as if fashioned by compasses, encircled by the Okeanos River,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and Asia and Europe of a like extent. For myself, I will in a few&#xD;&#xA;&gt; words indicate the extent of the two, and how each should be drawn.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herodotus, *Histories* 4.36  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/8FRJ9.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/FU2Ru.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/fVNHK.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7362" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1761" RevisionGUID="4acdd9d9-c7b1-4837-9c5f-372af9a339f3" CreationDate="2016-06-20T16:03:54.093" UserId="2682" Text="Based on Zeus' having rescued his siblings from the belly of their father Kronos; and on the deal that he made with the Titans who eventually sided with him (which is the majority of the Titan population, by the way), starting with his personal bodyguard the four winged children of Pallas and Styx, namely Zelos, Kratos, Bia and Nike; and on his leadership in the war which led to Kronos' defeat, it would seem that it had already been decided that Zeus would be king of the gods and ruler over the entire universe. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the family estate which they inherited from the first Titan generation—consisting mainly of the realms of Earth, Sky, Sea and Underworld—Zeus, Poseidon and Haides [Hades] first decided that the Earth would be the domain of all three in common so that each of them would have some control over it from whichever realm one ended up with. Whether from the Sky, from which rain and lightning issued forth upon the ground; from the Sea, which &quot;embraced&quot; the world's land; or from the Underworld, which received the dead delivered through the ground and also rendered up mineral wealth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The three brothers then cast lots to see who would get which realm, and thus Zeus became Ouranios, the Sky-God; Poseidon became Gaieokhos, &quot;Earth's Embracer&quot;; and Haides became Plouton [Pluton], the &quot;Wealthy&quot; One who owned all the Earth's buried treasure which mortals have to mine from it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no hint in any original myth that Haides was either forced or reluctant to receive his cast lot. In fact if anything he is the source of the least drama and is supported by Zeus in almost every major action that he takes, most notably when he asks Zeus for his daughter Persephone's hand in marriage, against the wishes both of the prospective bride herself and of her mother Demeter, and Zeus nonetheless accepts, even though this literally changes the world. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, when Zeus' own grandson Asklepios [Asclepius] is depleting the population of Haides' realm by resurrecting so many of the dead, and Haides complains about this to Zeus, Asklepios is summarily zapped dead with a thunderbolt by his granddad, no negotiations apparently needed. This gives rise to the anger of Asklepios' father Apollon [Apollo], but by that point in the story, Haides has left the scene and is minding his own business again.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Haides' behaviour in the myths implies that he quite rather *likes* his kingdom under the Earth, which affords him a great deal of privacy and power. In a way, he rules the largest portion of the universe, housing the most subjects (eventually there must have been way more dead people than those alive), including the powerful ancient ones caged in Tartaros, which itself was as vast as the Sky. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of especial note is the fact that Haides was considered to be as much and as powerful a king in his own right as Zeus was in the sky so much so that the king of the dead was sometimes referred to as Zeus Khthonios, &quot;Zeus of the Underworld,&quot; and depicted in art the same way Zeus was: installed on a golden throne and wielding an eagle-tipped sceptre. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In essence, Haides was an upside-down version of Zeus. Orphic mythology further blurs the line between the two brothers, such as in Nonnus' epic the *Dionysiaka*, which has Zeus consorting with Persephone to produce Zagreus, a pre-incarnation of Dionysos [Dionysus], who occurs as a son of Haides in Aeschylus. The Underworld demoness Melinoe is another such child of Persephone who is referred to as the daughter of both Zeus and Haides." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7364" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1635" RevisionGUID="7e305349-2e73-4e04-b939-6d2af86153ce" CreationDate="2016-06-20T19:28:13.800" UserId="51" Comment="Improving post formatting." Text="My name is Emerson C Velloso, and this is my archaeoastronomical contribution to Professor [Michael S Heiser][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The man seated is Ninurta, He's not only the God of the Farmers and Plow, He is also the God of War, related to the planet Saturn!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The big star in the center is Saturn.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;   [![Ninurta - the God of the Farmers and Plow, the God of War, planet Saturn][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These Akkadian representations are not realistic, but only systematic... even so, the astronomical order is right: the planets on the ecliptic trajectory passes between Betelgeuse/Aldebaran and the Pleiades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![star symbol of cylinder seal VA/243 - Orion, Betelgeuse, Pleiades, Saturn, Aldebaran][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_S._Heiser&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/uospw.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/TgOg0.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7365" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1635" RevisionGUID="7e305349-2e73-4e04-b939-6d2af86153ce" CreationDate="2016-06-20T19:28:13.800" Comment="Proposed by 51 approved by 42, 967 edit id of 327" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7367" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1762" RevisionGUID="88ed41b4-ac5c-472e-97b5-029e6e9e3970" CreationDate="2016-06-21T01:00:50.580" UserId="2707" Text="The material I was taught in school spoke of how Artemis never sought the company of man (romantically or sexually). Said material merely described the huntress as 'celibate', but this was sort of a PG, kid-friendly interpretation of mythology (for a Catholic school, no less) and since then I have occasionally come across more, shall we say- *explicit* versions of the legends. Was the sexual orientation of Artemis ever described in detail?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7368" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1762" RevisionGUID="88ed41b4-ac5c-472e-97b5-029e6e9e3970" CreationDate="2016-06-21T01:00:50.580" UserId="2707" Text="Was Artemis a lesbian?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7369" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1762" RevisionGUID="88ed41b4-ac5c-472e-97b5-029e6e9e3970" CreationDate="2016-06-21T01:00:50.580" UserId="2707" Text="|greek|olympians|artemis|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7373" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1765" RevisionGUID="49f5803c-e0d5-42f0-ab37-97cc9890dc88" CreationDate="2016-06-21T08:03:56.093" UserId="1624" Text="Artemis doesn't seek the company of man, that is true.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She is the virgin goddess of the hunt, and she usually is been escorted by young virgins.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Virginity is linked to purity, and Artemis is one of the symbol of this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She felt only on time in love, with Orion. But he got killed by Gaïa because he was threatening to kill every beast on the earth in his mad hunt with Artemis. That is from the Homer and Hesiod myth. Another explanation for his death is that Appolo doesn't agree with him being with his sister, and challenged his sister to shot on a target, which was Orion's head.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anyway, the constellation of Orion exists because Artemis asked Zeus for a memorial for Orion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She also killed the only man who saw her naked, Actaeon." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7374" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1765" RevisionGUID="4f9d1651-487a-4f7d-821b-515b144c30e0" CreationDate="2016-06-21T08:40:58.113" UserId="1624" Comment="added 119 characters in body" Text="Artemis doesn't seek the company of man, that is true.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She is the virgin goddess of the hunt, and she usually is been escorted by young virgins.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Virginity is linked to purity, and Artemis is one of the symbol of this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She felt only on time in love, with Orion. But he got killed by Gaïa because he was threatening to kill every beast on the earth in his mad hunt with Artemis. That is from the Homer and Hesiod myth. Another explanation for his death is that Appolo doesn't agree with him being with his sister, and challenged his sister to shot on a target, which was Orion's head.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anyway, the constellation of Orion exists because Artemis asked Zeus for a memorial for Orion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She also killed the only man who saw her naked, Actaeon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no mention of Artemis being a lesbian, and, as I said, we know that she was at least in love with one man." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7376" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1751" RevisionGUID="39d56dd6-3234-4499-9819-885580d5c00b" CreationDate="2016-06-21T11:16:23.807" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 150 characters in body" Text="&gt; BECAUSE ALL BABOONS HOWL AT THE SUN AT DAWN, WHICH NATURALLY THEY TOOK AS A SIGN OF DIVINE ADORATION ---In the Ancient Egyptian Pyramid texts is a reference to the red color of the sky at dawn.&quot; In a Middle ... The howling of Sun-worshipping baboons rise early to catch the African sunrise - and race each other to the top for the best spots&#xD;&#xA;The playful Gelada Baboons are some of Africa's most sociable monkeys&#xD;&#xA;They wake up before daybreak and climb to the highest vantage point they can find&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2583322/Monkey-magic-Playful-baboons-scramble-mountain-enjoy-spectacular-sunrise.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7377" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1749" RevisionGUID="5d9d2f71-5d1b-4de6-bec4-1759c34445c9" CreationDate="2016-06-21T11:17:48.787" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|hindu|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7380" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1701" RevisionGUID="0fec5099-07f9-436e-823b-d372cdc8b298" CreationDate="2016-06-22T04:59:01.353" UserId="14" Comment="added 48 characters in body" Text="One of the most well-known features of Hindu time-scales is the cycle of four Yugas, known as Satya, Treta, Dwapara, and Kali.  In the Satya (aka Krita) Yuga, almost all humans are good.  In the Treta Yuga, most humans are good but some are bad.  It's during one of the past Treta Yugas that the Hindu epic the Ramayana took place.  In the Dwapara Yuga, most humans are bad but some are good.  The Hindu epic the Mahabharata took place in the most recent  Dwapara Yuga.  And finally, we have the Kali Yuga, the age of evil we're currently living in, where almost all humans are bad.  The present Kali Yuga will end when Kalki, whom I discuss [here](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/684/14), comes and annihilates the evil people, and then the Satya Yuga will begin again.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now many cultures and ideologies idolize an imagined past in order to explain or criticize the world of the present.  So my question is, have any Indologists theorized that the Kali Yuga was invented in the Kali Yuga?  That is to say, have they theorized that the system of the four Yugas was invented at a certain point in time, that that point in time was declared to be part of the &quot;Kali Yuga&quot;, and Hindus have been considering themselves to be in the Kali Yuga ever since?  Or is the consensus of Indologists that there was a time in history when Hindus considered themselves to be living in some Yuga other than the Kali Yuga?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have come across Indologists who have advanced a slightly less bold thesis.  Most Hindu scriptures, including the Mahabharata and the Puranas, are believed to have been composed in the Dwapara Yuga.  So their discussion of the Kali Yuga take the form of prophecy, describing things like the mixing of castes, the abandoning of Vedic Dharma, and the invasion of India by Mlecchas or foreigners.  I have seen Indologists argue that such descriptions are not actual prophecies, but rather &quot;retroactive prophecies&quot; written by people who were describing the actual state of the society they were living in, and the faults they found with it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But are any Indologists willing to go one step further, and say that the very concept of the Kali Yuga was invented by people to diagnose why their society fell short of the ideas of Vedic society?  I suppose one piece of evidence they could use is that the Yuga system is seldom mentioned in the Vedas, and is mainly mentioned in later texts like the Puranas.  And also there is a verse, widely believed to be spurious, in the Brahma Vaivarta Purana which says certain Vedic practices like animal sacrifice and Niyoga (which I discuss [here](http://hinduism.stackexchange.com/a/7628/36)) were allowed in earlier Yugas but are prohibited in the Kali Yuga.  This could be seen as an indication that people were accustomed to using the concept of Yugas to relegate aspects of Hinduism they didn't like to an earlier age whose customs are presumed no longer relevant to the world as it is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that I am a devout Hindu and a strong believer in the Yuga system; I'm just posting this question because I'm curious as to what secular scholarship has to say on this subject.  I'm a [Hinduism Stackexchange](http://hinduism.stackexchange.com) moderator, but I'm posting the question here because I don't want people there mistakenly thinking that I'm casting doubt on the Yuga system." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7381" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1766" RevisionGUID="89d0bbdc-31ef-44cc-a151-b714652fc191" CreationDate="2016-06-22T11:10:50.523" UserId="2715" Text="Zeus kidnapped Europa and took her from Greece, to an island across the sea in lust for you-know-what-guys-want. The people of her kingdom(she was a princess) freaked out and tried to find her but they never came across the particular island. Eventually they gave up, and called the general area where she had been Europa, which over time, became Europe." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7382" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1707" RevisionGUID="15f074c9-6465-495d-a89a-af8a45f610e1" CreationDate="2016-06-22T21:06:43.523" UserId="967" Comment="grammar + formatting" Text="Again, this paper provides the answer:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[*The discovery of the body: human dissection and its cultural contexts in ancient Greece.*](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2589595/), by H. van Staden, Yale Journal of Biology and Medicine.  1992 May-Jun; 65(3): 223–241&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The main thrust of it is:  Greek society, as a whole, didn't change.  Most Greeks likely would have found his work mortifying.  After Herophilus and Erasistratus, human dissection again became absent from *all* subsequent Greek science, not to resurface for some 1700 years (in 14th century Italy).  However, a unique set of circumstances were at work in Herophilos's home of Alexandria.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the key elements: Ptolemaic Egypt (and thus Alexandria), was *not* democratic:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Alexandria, a scientist's fellow-residents could not vote to ostracize or exile him on grounds of impiety, as they could--and did--in &quot;democratic&quot; Athens&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further, the Ptolemies, wanted to establish Alexandria as a center of learning, and so extended generous patronage to scientists and scholars.  It was the kings who, not only allowed Herophilos and Erasistratus to pursue cadaver dissection, but also handed over condemned criminals for *vivisectory* experiments.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Ptolmies also had little respect for the Greek taboos of the time, and may have set examples of violating them, themselves:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Moreover, Alexandria was a new frontier city in which traditional Greek values were not considered intrinsically superior.  Indeed, the Ptolemies themselves set examples--shocking to some Alexandrian Greeks--of violating traditional Greek taboos...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, the philosophical climate may have contributed making it more acceptable, particularly Aristotelian thought, who spoke specifically on the subject of the corpse:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is clear that a corpse is a human being *in name only*...  &#xD;&#xA;Even though a dead person also has the same external form and shape, it nevertheless is not a human being...  &#xD;&#xA;So too the &quot;hand&quot; of a person who has died is a hand *in name only*, just as flutes in a stone sculpture might also be called &quot;flutes&quot;..." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7383" PostHistoryTypeId="8" PostId="1707" RevisionGUID="eb0c2bd9-1414-4257-bb10-f23baf858b23" CreationDate="2016-06-22T23:11:57.090" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="Rollback to [54532e12-e1e6-474c-a86d-c1c4841774cb]" Text="Again, this paper provide's the answer:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[&quot;The discovery of the body: human dissection and its cultural contexts in ancient Greece.&quot;](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2589595/), by H. van Staden, Yale Journal of Biology and Medicine.  1992 May-Jun; 65(3): 223–241&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The main thrust of it is:  Greek society, as a whole, didn't change.  Most Greeks likely would have found his work mortifying.  After Herophilus and Erasistratus, human dissection again became absent from *all* subsequent Greek science, not to resurface for some 1700 years (in 14th century Italy).  However, a unique set of circumstances were at work in Herophilos's home of Alexandria.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the key elements: Ptolemaic Egypt (and thus Alexandria), was *not* democratic:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Alexandria, a scientist's fellow-residents could not vote to ostracize or exile him on grounds of impiety, as they could--and did--in &quot;democratic&quot; Athens&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further, the Ptolemies, wanted to establish Alexandria as a center of learning, and so extended generous patronage to scientists and scholars.  It was the kings who, not only allowed Herophilos and Erasistratus to pursue cadaver dissection, but also handed over condemned criminals for *vivisectory* experiments.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Ptolmies also had little respect for the Greek taboos of the time, and may have set examples of violating them, themselves:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Moreover, Alexandria was a new frontier city in which traditional Greek values were not considered intrinsically superior.  Indeed, the Ptolemies themselves set examples--shocking to some Alexandrian Greeks--of violating traditional Greek taboos...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, the philosophical climate may have contributed making it more acceptable, particularly Aristotelian thought, who spoke specifically on the subject of the corpse:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is clear that a corpse is a human being *in name only*...  &#xD;&#xA;Even though a dead person also has the same external form and shape, it nevertheless is not a human being...  &#xD;&#xA;So too the &quot;hand&quot; of a person who has died is a hand *in name only*, just as flutes in a stone sculpture might also be called &quot;flutes&quot;..." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7384" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1707" RevisionGUID="71481b94-e6f3-4a5c-843b-6965bb55eeaa" CreationDate="2016-06-22T23:12:39.197" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="bleh -- papers, like short stories and chapters of books, aren't italicised. However, book titles and jounal titles are." Text="Again, this paper provides the answer:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[&quot;The discovery of the body: human dissection and its cultural contexts in ancient Greece.&quot;](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2589595/), by H. van Staden, Yale Journal of Biology and Medicine.  1992 May-Jun; 65(3): 223–241&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The main thrust of it is:  Greek society, as a whole, didn't change.  Most Greeks likely would have found his work mortifying.  After Herophilus and Erasistratus, human dissection again became absent from *all* subsequent Greek science, not to resurface for some 1700 years (in 14th century Italy).  However, a unique set of circumstances were at work in Herophilos's home of Alexandria.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the key elements: Ptolemaic Egypt (and thus Alexandria), was *not* democratic:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Alexandria, a scientist's fellow-residents could not vote to ostracize or exile him on grounds of impiety, as they could--and did--in &quot;democratic&quot; Athens&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further, the Ptolemies, wanted to establish Alexandria as a center of learning, and so extended generous patronage to scientists and scholars.  It was the kings who, not only allowed Herophilos and Erasistratus to pursue cadaver dissection, but also handed over condemned criminals for *vivisectory* experiments.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Ptolmies also had little respect for the Greek taboos of the time, and may have set examples of violating them, themselves:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Moreover, Alexandria was a new frontier city in which traditional Greek values were not considered intrinsically superior.  Indeed, the Ptolemies themselves set examples--shocking to some Alexandrian Greeks--of violating traditional Greek taboos...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, the philosophical climate may have contributed making it more acceptable, particularly Aristotelian thought, who spoke specifically on the subject of the corpse:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is clear that a corpse is a human being *in name only*...  &#xD;&#xA;Even though a dead person also has the same external form and shape, it nevertheless is not a human being...  &#xD;&#xA;So too the &quot;hand&quot; of a person who has died is a hand *in name only*, just as flutes in a stone sculpture might also be called &quot;flutes&quot;..." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7385" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1765" RevisionGUID="105e0bee-8db8-49d6-96f2-88839825d396" CreationDate="2016-06-23T10:59:43.810" UserId="1232" Comment="Clarified answer " Text="Artemis doesn't seek the company of man, that is true.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She is the virgin goddess of the hunt, and she usually is escorted by young virgins.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Virginity is linked to purity, and Artemis is one of the symbols of this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She fell in love only one time with Orion. But he was killed by Gaïa because he threatened to kill every beast on the earth in his mad hunt with Artemis. That is from the Homer and Hesiod myth.&#xA;&#xA;Another explanation for his death is that Apollo didn't agree with Orion being with his sister, and challenged his sister to shoot a target, which was Orion's head.&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anyway, the constellation of Orion exists because Artemis asked Zeus for a memorial for Orion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She also killed the only man who saw her naked, Actaeon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no mention of Artemis being a lesbian, and, as I said, we know that she was at least in love with one man." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7386" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1765" RevisionGUID="105e0bee-8db8-49d6-96f2-88839825d396" CreationDate="2016-06-23T10:59:43.810" Comment="Proposed by 1232 approved by 57 edit id of 328" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7387" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1741" RevisionGUID="4edd5b76-1b92-495a-b75a-dde414709c01" CreationDate="2016-06-23T11:28:29.660" UserId="1232" Comment="Grammar fixes " Text="#Lucifer is the Latin name of [Eôsphoros][1], who was paired up with Vesper.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eôsphoros means dawn-bringer. They were [Astra Planeta][1], gods of the five planets.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;EOSPHOROS and HESPEROS were the gods of the star (astron planeta) Venus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But remember that it is present day - they did not call the planet they saw in the sky Aphrodite.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, it is, in fact, Lucifer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/AsterEosphoros.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7388" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1741" RevisionGUID="4edd5b76-1b92-495a-b75a-dde414709c01" CreationDate="2016-06-23T11:28:29.660" Comment="Proposed by 1232 approved by 57 edit id of 329" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7389" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1767" RevisionGUID="cfdcbb08-7f9e-4c26-8934-ef42b90801e6" CreationDate="2016-06-23T12:45:10.480" UserId="51" Text="The following Bible passages mention “*Anakim*” and “*Anak*”:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Num 13:22; 13:28; 13:33&#xD;&#xA;- Deut 1:28; 2:10-11; 2:21, 9:2&#xD;&#xA;- Josh 11:21-22; 14:12; 14:15; 15:13-14; 21:11&#xD;&#xA;- Judg 1:20.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They're sound similar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any known connection between biblical *Anakim*/*Anak* entities and sumerian Anunnaki gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7390" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1767" RevisionGUID="cfdcbb08-7f9e-4c26-8934-ef42b90801e6" CreationDate="2016-06-23T12:45:10.480" UserId="51" Text="Are the Anunnaki mentioned in the Bible?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7391" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1767" RevisionGUID="cfdcbb08-7f9e-4c26-8934-ef42b90801e6" CreationDate="2016-06-23T12:45:10.480" UserId="51" Text="|comparative|gods|sumerian|anunnaki|bible|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7392" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1768" RevisionGUID="a61b50e7-c8d2-4cf4-bf28-6375ea4ccbf9" CreationDate="2016-06-23T13:00:16.803" UserId="1624" Text="How could they be related ? Anakim just means &quot;*sons of Anak*&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;It is just a race of giants, and there is nothing giving them godlike power or something.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anunnaki, as I explained in another post, means sons of An. While the terminology is the same (it is logical, summerian and hebraïc languages are not so far from each others), there is nothing in common between those 2 words." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7393" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1768" RevisionGUID="121e766d-f949-475b-b8ff-7b8ed2491bdc" CreationDate="2016-06-23T13:02:33.003" UserId="1624" Comment="added 134 characters in body" Text="How could they be related ? Anakim just means &quot;*sons of Anak*&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;It is just a race of giants, and there is nothing giving them godlike power or something.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anunnaki, as I explained in [another post][1], means sons of An. While the terminology is the same (it is logical, summerian and hebraïc languages are not so far from each others), there is nothing in common between those 2 words.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/311/what-is-the-difference-between-igigi-and-anunnaki-deities/1739#1739" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7394" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1768" RevisionGUID="50ca2560-5392-4f37-894c-0bd5da377572" CreationDate="2016-06-23T13:08:30.000" UserId="1624" Comment="added 134 characters in body" Text="How could they be related ? Anakim just means &quot;*sons of Anak*&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;It is just a race of giants, and there is nothing giving them godlike power or something.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anunnaki, as I explained in [another post][1], means sons of An. While the terminology is the same, there is nothing in common between those 2 words.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;EDIT : The sumerian language is apparently an language isolate. So it is just a coincidence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More than that, in the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, there is a link with the [goddess Athena][2], but it is not linked to a semitic deity, still, I don't see any link with the sumerian gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/311/what-is-the-difference-between-igigi-and-anunnaki-deities/1739#1739&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.studylight.org/encyclopedias/isb/view.cgi?n=499." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7395" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1768" RevisionGUID="fcc81617-9b68-4af1-b15e-fd05dde4a6cf" CreationDate="2016-06-23T13:17:22.370" UserId="1624" Comment="added 15 characters in body" Text="How could they be related ? Anakim just means &quot;*sons of Anak*&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;It is just a race of giants, and there is nothing giving them godlike power or something.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anunnaki, as I explained in [another post][1], means sons of An. While the terminology is the same, there is nothing in common between those 2 words.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;EDIT : The sumerian language is apparently an language isolate. So it is just a coincidence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More than that, in the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, an hypothesis linked this word with the [goddess Athena][2], but it is not linked to a semitic deity. Still, I don't see any link with the sumerian gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/311/what-is-the-difference-between-igigi-and-anunnaki-deities/1739#1739&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.studylight.org/encyclopedias/isb/view.cgi?n=499." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7396" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1768" RevisionGUID="e59d4000-71d6-4580-b428-d8d3f01d6cbd" CreationDate="2016-06-23T13:33:56.810" UserId="1624" Comment="added 23 characters in body" Text="How could they be related ? Anakim just means &quot;*sons of Anak*&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;It is just a race of giants, and there is nothing giving them godlike power or something.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anunnaki, as I explained in [another post][1], means sons of An. While the terminology is the same, there is nothing in common between those 2 words.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;EDIT : The sumerian language is apparently an language isolate. So it is just a coincidence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More than that, in the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, an hypothesis linked this word with a [goddess from the eastern cultural block][2], but it is not linked to a semitic deity. Still, I don't see any link with the sumerian gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/311/what-is-the-difference-between-igigi-and-anunnaki-deities/1739#1739&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.studylight.org/encyclopedias/isb/view.cgi?n=499." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7397" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1758" RevisionGUID="826949e4-2f3e-4de6-b36c-c1059ec25485" CreationDate="2016-06-24T02:41:31.433" UserId="2682" Comment="improved grammar" Text="All the three peoples in question are just as human as most others who inhabit the cosmos of Greek myth, granted that in this mythology all human beings are somewhat &quot;magical&quot; and of virtually comicbook divine origin. The Greeks believed that pretty much every tribe and nation in the world was descended from a child of one of their gods, which would mean that, technically, the very first of those peoples, especially their monarchs, were barely human, if at all. They were something beyond that: the bridge between God, or the gods, and whatever we are now.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What makes peoples like Kimmerioi [Cimmerians], Hyperboreoi [Hyperboreans] and Aithiopes [Ethiopians] special is more so their lifestyles, lifespans and/or geographical locations. Peoples living in wintry places have tended to romanticise parts of the world which do not experience the long seasons of extreme cold and frost occurring annually outside the tropics. This idealisation seems to be what transpired with the Aithiopes of Greek myth, who literally still today live in a land of perpetual summer and spring. It is possible that with the Hyperboreoi, who lived in a land far north of Greece, the mythographers were referring to a tropical region on the other side of the planet, regarding which they had acquired a bit of vague information (and which would be somewhere on the shores of the Pacific Ocean). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whatever the case that can be made on that is, the dwelling-places of the Hyperboreoi and the Aithiopes were so desirable that their lifestyles were imagined as virtually indistinguishable from those of the gods or from the dead who ended up on the Blessed Islands, which in themselves sound to me quite Polynesian or like tourist attractions on the East African coast.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;[![Watamu, Kenya][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;*Watamu Town, Kenya*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hence the idea either that these peoples were immortal or extremely long-lived and that even if they died, like the Hyperboreoi, e.g., death was a lovely affair involving metamorphosis into a swan in their local Eridanos River, the most beautiful stream of water in the world. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### THE KIMMERIOI ###&#xD;&#xA;With the Kimmerioi the opposite extreme was imagined in terms of their climate, which was perpetually dark, cold and misty, and in the middle of which, according to Ovid's *Metamorphoses*, Sleep and Death themselves made their home. Not all the myths agree in placing the Kimmerioi in such a situation, but, on account of the ones which do, one might in fact be led to consider the question of how a group of humans could survive in such conditions, how they ended up there in the first place, and why they would remain thus. Granted that there *are* inhabited parts of the world (much farther away than the myths locate the Kimmerioi, though) in which it is consecutive nighttime for long stretches of time, up to six months. This is, however, obversely interrupted by reciprocal lengths of consecutive daytime.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A.S. Kline's website [Poetry in Translation](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/OdindexBCDE.htm#Cimmerians) summarises the Kimmerioi as &quot;People living near the entrance to Hades... Herodotus places them in Scythia, and the modern name Crimea is perhaps derived from these sources. But Homer may have used the name to encompass all the peoples of Northern Europe.&quot; The Kimmerioi are mentioned both by Pliny the Elder and by Herodotus in close connection with the Skythoi [Scythians], who it is easy to locate in certain parts of Eastern Europe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### THE AITHIOPES &amp; THE HYPERBOREOI ###&#xD;&#xA;In Hesiod's *Catalogues of Women*, Gaia [the Earth] consorts both with her grandson the sea-god Poseidon and with her great-grandson Epaphos, the latter of whom is the Greek rendition of the Egyptian god Hapi [Apis]. Together they produce a number of children and nations inhabiting Africa and a few other places. Among these offspring are: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Aithiops, ancestor of the **Aithiopes**, whose domain stretched from South Sudan, and possibly Kenya, to India and southern Europe. (The term *Aithiopes* sometimes seems to have incorporated certain Indian and Arabian tribes, such as the Blemmyēs in Nonnus' epic the *Dionysiaka* [300s/400s AD], although according to the geographer Strabo [1st century BC—1st century AD], those Aithiopes &quot;who are in Asia, and those who are in Africa, do not differ from each other.&quot;) By the time of the Egyptian merchant Kosmas Indikopleustes, &quot;Cosmas Who Sailed to India&quot; [500s AD], *Aithiopes* denoted African peoples as far south as Zimbabwe. According to the Roman writer Pliny the Elder, this vast land &quot;Aethiopia&quot; was named after Aethiops, a son of the blacksmith-god Vulcan [the Roman Hephaistos].      &#xD;&#xA; - Libys, ancestor of the Libyēs [Libyans]  &#xD;&#xA; - Pygmaioi, &quot;Pygmies,&quot; who lived in Libya and Morocco and are&#xD;&#xA;   connected with skilled metallurgy [like the Svartálfar, &quot;Black Elves,&quot; of&#xD;&#xA;   Norse mythology]&#xD;&#xA; - Melanokhrotoi, &quot;Blackskins,&quot; more Svartálf-like people? &#xD;&#xA;[![Osiris the Lord of Perfect Black][2]][2] &#xD;&#xA;*or like (per one of this god's titles) Osiris* &quot;the Lord of Perfect Black&quot;?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Katoudaioi, [gnomes?] who lived underground, perhaps somewhere in Tunisia (and maybe the same as an ethnic group mentioned by Josephus as descended from Abraham and Keturah)&#xD;&#xA; - Hemikynoi, &quot;Half-Dogs,&quot; a race of Anubis-like dog-headed people &#xD;&#xA;[![St Christopher Cynocephalus][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;*in mediaeval Europe it was supposed that St Christopher had been one of them*&#xD;&#xA; - Skythes, ancestor of the **Skythoi**, closely associated with the **Kimmerioi**, even said to be the same as them. (In another version Skythes is a son of the hero Herakles [Hercules], and his descendants grow into the strongest nation of ancient southern Russia.)&#xD;&#xA; - and the **Hyperboreoi**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of the 8 groups listed above, only one, the Hemikynoi, for sure is not human (or is part human and part canine). My descriptions of the Melanokhrotoi and Katoudaioi are merely attempted interpretations which might be wrong, but my point being that in general this passage of the Catalogues is certainly intended to supply the ancestral origin of various ordinary human tribes in the Mediterranean Basin and around it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no myth I'm aware of which indicates that any of these peoples existed before other humans necessarily. In fact, if the Catalogues are the main source for their origin story, then we know for certain, going by the chronology of the myths, that all these peoples are fairly young in comparison to other groups of the world. If they are descended from Epaphos, then they would've been born sometime after the Flood, since Epaphos is supposed to have survived that cataclysm. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### The Kingdom of Aithiopia ###&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The one discrepancy contained therein is that Epaphos' close friend and relative Phaethon was a prince of Aithiopia. This Phaethon is the son of the Sun who crashed to Earth and burned attempting to drive his father's flaming chariot. It is his own land to which Phaethon is said to have done the most damage with the Sun's fire, crashing the chariot into what is now the Sahara Desert. Phaethon's mother the Oceanid Klymene had divorced the Sun and married King Merops of Aithiopia, becoming an African queen. Merops seems to have been a regular mortal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Centuries later, Poseidon's daughter the sea-goddess Benthesikyme also married an Aithiopian king, this one named Enalos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A few generations before the reign of Enalos, Perseus (who slew the Gorgon Medusa) married Princess Andromeda of Aithiopia. Andromeda's parents Kepheus and Kassiopeia, who were rather human although they were close descendants of Zeus and Poseidon. They also may have held some territory in the lands of the Canaanites and the Philistines, on the border of Israel.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perses, the eldest child of Perseus and Andromeda, became king of Aithiopia when he grew up and then he also founded the Persian Empire, naming it after himself. Two of Perses' younger brothers were close ancestors of Herakles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### The Kingdom of Hyperborea ###&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Pindar's description of the fabulously paradisaical land beyond the northern Rhipaion mountains it is always party-time among the Hyperboreoi, who are into both their music and their magic, as well as dancing. They also, however, take quite seriously a certain annual sacrifice to Apollon [Apollo] held on the Cycladic island of Delos which was sacred to the god. For their first ever contribution to this they sent out a delegation of two of their young women together with five men who were to hand-deliver the sacrifice to Delos, half a world away from their country, beyond a nigh-impassable mountain barrier. The delegates never made it back, however, and the Hyperboreoi seem to have thought that they had been murdered, so they opted to have the sacrifice couriered instead, via a chain network of peoples starting with their closest neighbours going towards the Cyclades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zabios was a king of Hyperborea whose daughter Themisto bore Apollon a son, Galeus. The oracle of Zeus at Dodona instructed Galeus to migrate from Hyperborea to Sicily where he built a sanctuary to his father Apollon. He was the ancestor of the Galeotai, a family of Sicilian soothsayers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The names of several other Hyperboreoi occur in the mythology. The only ones among them that don't seem to be human are the children of Boreas himself: three sons who were, according to Aaron Atsma on [The Theoi Project](http://www.theoi.com/Gigante/GigantesHyperboreades.html), winged, gigantic, immortal high priests of Apollon who served the Hyperboreoi; and three daughters Oupis, Hekaerge and Loxo, described as hunter nymphs who introduced the worship of Apollon's twin sister Artemis to Delos Island.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I have said this much of the Hyperboreoi, and let it suffice; for I&#xD;&#xA;&gt; do not tell the story of that Abaris, alleged to be a Hyperboreos [Hyperborean], who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; carried the [flying] arrow over the whole world, fasting all the while. But if&#xD;&#xA;&gt; there are men beyond Boreas [the North Wind], then there are others&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beyond the south. And I laugh to see how many have before now drawn&#xD;&#xA;&gt; maps of the world, not one of them reasonably; for they draw the world&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as round as if fashioned by compasses, encircled by the Okeanos River,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and Asia and Europe of a like extent. For myself, I will in a few&#xD;&#xA;&gt; words indicate the extent of the two, and how each should be drawn.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herodotus, *Histories* 4.36  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/8FRJ9.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/FU2Ru.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/fVNHK.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7398" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="738" RevisionGUID="6d07733e-68d5-4c4a-843d-0f0b38fceb0a" CreationDate="2016-06-24T15:19:25.350" UserId="42" Comment="27" />
  <row Id="7400" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="738" RevisionGUID="9bb25805-935f-441f-90d3-1e0e44d98eb8" CreationDate="2016-06-25T16:45:46.327" UserId="42" Comment="27" />
  <row Id="7401" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1769" RevisionGUID="0247851f-72d3-4859-ae2d-54ec9b80787e" CreationDate="2016-06-26T09:06:43.543" UserId="2723" Text="Looking for good, uncomplicated sources on Australian Aboriginal Mythology - books, web, whatever. &#xD;&#xA;Not heavy scholarly stuff, but with plenty of detail" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7402" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1769" RevisionGUID="0247851f-72d3-4859-ae2d-54ec9b80787e" CreationDate="2016-06-26T09:06:43.543" UserId="2723" Text="Looking for good information on Australian Aboriginal Mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7403" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1769" RevisionGUID="0247851f-72d3-4859-ae2d-54ec9b80787e" CreationDate="2016-06-26T09:06:43.543" UserId="2723" Text="|indigenous-australian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7404" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1758" RevisionGUID="1cddb975-dc3c-48d3-bf33-6fc670318c5e" CreationDate="2016-06-26T19:29:10.493" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="All the three peoples in question are just as human as most others who inhabit the cosmos of Greek myth, granted that in this mythology all human beings are somewhat &quot;magical&quot; and of virtually comicbook divine origin. The Greeks believed that pretty much every tribe and nation in the world was descended from a child of one of their gods, which would mean that, technically, the very first of those peoples, especially their monarchs, were barely human, if at all. They were something beyond that: the bridge between God, or the gods, and whatever we are now.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What makes peoples like Kimmerioi [Cimmerians], Hyperboreoi [Hyperboreans] and Aithiopes [Ethiopians] special is more so their lifestyles, lifespans and/or geographical locations. Peoples living in wintry places have tended to romanticise parts of the world which do not experience the long seasons of extreme cold and frost occurring annually outside the tropics. This idealisation seems to be what transpired with the Aithiopes of Greek myth, who literally still today live in a land of perpetual summer and spring. It is possible that with the Hyperboreoi, who lived in a land far north of Greece, the mythographers were referring to a tropical region on the other side of the planet, regarding which they had acquired a bit of vague information (and which would be somewhere on the shores of the Pacific Ocean). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whatever the case that can be made on that is, the dwelling-places of the Hyperboreoi and the Aithiopes were so desirable that their lifestyles were imagined as virtually indistinguishable from those of the gods or from the dead who ended up on the Blessed Islands, which in themselves sound to me quite Polynesian or like tourist attractions on the East African coast.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;[![Watamu, Kenya][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;*Watamu Town, Kenya*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hence the idea either that these peoples were immortal or extremely long-lived and that even if they died, like the Hyperboreoi, e.g., death was a lovely affair involving metamorphosis into a swan in their local Eridanos River, the most beautiful stream of water in the world. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### THE KIMMERIOI ###&#xD;&#xA;With the Kimmerioi the opposite extreme was imagined in terms of their climate, which was perpetually dark, cold and misty, and in the middle of which, according to Ovid's *Metamorphoses*, Sleep and Death themselves made their home. Not all the myths agree in placing the Kimmerioi in such a situation, but, on account of the ones which do, one might in fact be led to consider the question of how a group of humans could survive in such conditions, how they ended up there in the first place, and why they would remain thus. Granted that there *are* inhabited parts of the world (much farther away than the myths locate the Kimmerioi, though) in which it is consecutive nighttime for long stretches of time, up to six months. This is, however, obversely interrupted by reciprocal lengths of consecutive daytime.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A.S. Kline's website [Poetry in Translation](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/OdindexBCDE.htm#Cimmerians) summarises the Kimmerioi as &quot;People living near the entrance to Hades... Herodotus places them in Scythia, and the modern name Crimea is perhaps derived from these sources. But Homer may have used the name to encompass all the peoples of Northern Europe.&quot; The Kimmerioi are mentioned both by Pliny the Elder and by Herodotus in close connection with the Skythoi [Scythians], who it is easy to locate in certain parts of Eastern Europe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### THE AITHIOPES &amp; THE HYPERBOREOI ###&#xD;&#xA;In Hesiod's *Catalogues of Women*, Gaia [the Earth] consorts both with her grandson the sea-god Poseidon and with her great-grandson Epaphos, the latter of whom is the Greek rendition of the Egyptian god Hapi [Apis]. Together they produce a number of children and nations inhabiting Africa and a few other places. Among these offspring are: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Aithiops, ancestor of the **Aithiopes**, whose domain stretched from South Sudan, and possibly Kenya, to India and southern Europe. (The term *Aithiopes* sometimes seems to have incorporated certain Indian and Arabian tribes, such as the Blemmyēs in Nonnus' epic the *Dionysiaka* [300s/400s AD], although according to the geographer Strabo [1st century BC—1st century AD], those Aithiopes &quot;who are in Asia, and those who are in Africa, do not differ from each other.&quot;) By the time of the Egyptian merchant Kosmas Indikopleustes, &quot;Cosmas Who Sailed to India&quot; [500s AD], *Aithiopes* denoted African peoples as far south as Zimbabwe. According to the Roman writer Pliny the Elder, this vast land &quot;Aethiopia&quot; was named after Aethiops, a son of the blacksmith-god Vulcan [the Roman Hephaistos].      &#xD;&#xA; - Libys, ancestor of the Libyēs [Libyans]  &#xD;&#xA; - Pygmaioi, &quot;Pygmies,&quot; who lived in Libya and Morocco and are&#xD;&#xA;   connected with skilled metallurgy [like the Svartálfar, &quot;Black Elves,&quot; of&#xD;&#xA;   Norse mythology]&#xD;&#xA; - Melanokhrotoi, &quot;Blackskins,&quot; more Svartálf-like people? &#xD;&#xA;[![Osiris the Lord of Perfect Black][2]][2] &#xD;&#xA;*or like (per one of this god's titles) Osiris* &quot;the Lord of Perfect Black&quot;?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Katoudaioi, [gnomes?] who lived underground, perhaps somewhere in Tunisia (and maybe the same as an ethnic group mentioned by Josephus as descended from Abraham and Keturah)&#xD;&#xA; - Hemikynoi, &quot;Half-Dogs,&quot; a race of Anubis-like dog-headed people &#xD;&#xA;[![St Christopher Cynocephalus][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;*in mediaeval Europe it was supposed that St Christopher had been one of them*&#xD;&#xA; - Skythes, ancestor of the **Skythoi**, closely associated with the **Kimmerioi**, even said to be the same as them. (In another version Skythes is a son of the hero Herakles [Hercules], and his descendants grow into the strongest nation of ancient southern Russia.)&#xD;&#xA; - and the **Hyperboreoi**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of the 8 groups listed above, only one, the Hemikynoi, for sure is not human (or is part human and part canine). My descriptions of the Melanokhrotoi and Katoudaioi are merely attempted interpretations which might be wrong, but my point being that in general this passage of the Catalogues is certainly intended to supply the ancestral origin of various ordinary human tribes in the Mediterranean Basin and around it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no myth I'm aware of which indicates that any of these peoples existed before other humans necessarily. In fact, if the Catalogues are the main source for their origin story, then we know for certain, going by the chronology of the myths, that all these peoples are fairly young in comparison to other groups of the world. If they are descended from Epaphos, then they would've been born sometime after the Flood, since Epaphos is supposed to have survived that cataclysm. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### The Kingdom of Aithiopia ###&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The one discrepancy contained therein is that Epaphos' close friend and relative Phaethon was a prince of Aithiopia. This Phaethon is the son of the Sun who crashed to Earth and burned attempting to drive his father's flaming chariot. It is his own land to which Phaethon is said to have done the most damage with the Sun's fire, crashing the chariot into what is now the Sahara Desert. Phaethon's mother the Oceanid Klymene had divorced the Sun and married King Merops of Aithiopia, becoming an African queen. Merops seems to have been a regular mortal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Centuries later, Poseidon's daughter the sea-goddess Benthesikyme also married an Aithiopian king, this one named Enalos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A few generations before the reign of Enalos, Perseus (who slew the Gorgon Medusa) married Princess Andromeda of Aithiopia. Andromeda's parents Kepheus and Kassiopeia, who were rather human although they were close descendants of Zeus and Poseidon, may have held some territory in the lands of the Canaanites and the Philistines, on the border of Israel.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perses, the eldest child of Perseus and Andromeda, became king of Aithiopia when he grew up and then he also founded the Persian Empire, naming it after himself. Two of Perses' younger brothers were close ancestors of Herakles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### The Kingdom of Hyperborea ###&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Pindar's description of the fabulously paradisaical land beyond the northern Rhipaion mountains it is always party-time among the Hyperboreoi, who are into both their music and their magic, as well as dancing. They also, however, take quite seriously a certain annual sacrifice to Apollon [Apollo] held on the Cycladic island of Delos which was sacred to the god. For their first ever contribution to this they sent out a delegation of two of their young women together with five men who were to hand-deliver the sacrifice to Delos, half a world away from their country, beyond a nigh-impassable mountain barrier. The delegates never made it back, however, and the Hyperboreoi seem to have thought that they had been murdered, so they opted to have the sacrifice couriered instead, via a chain network of peoples starting with their closest neighbours going towards the Cyclades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zabios was a king of Hyperborea whose daughter Themisto bore Apollon a son, Galeus. The oracle of Zeus at Dodona instructed Galeus to migrate from Hyperborea to Sicily where he built a sanctuary to his father Apollon. He was the ancestor of the Galeotai, a family of Sicilian soothsayers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The names of several other Hyperboreoi occur in the mythology. The only ones among them that don't seem to be human are the children of Boreas himself: three sons who were, according to Aaron Atsma on [The Theoi Project](http://www.theoi.com/Gigante/GigantesHyperboreades.html), winged, gigantic, immortal high priests of Apollon who served the Hyperboreoi; and three daughters Oupis, Hekaerge and Loxo, described as hunter nymphs who introduced the worship of Apollon's twin sister Artemis to Delos Island.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I have said this much of the Hyperboreoi, and let it suffice; for I&#xD;&#xA;&gt; do not tell the story of that Abaris, alleged to be a Hyperboreos [Hyperborean], who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; carried the [flying] arrow over the whole world, fasting all the while. But if&#xD;&#xA;&gt; there are men beyond Boreas [the North Wind], then there are others&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beyond the south. And I laugh to see how many have before now drawn&#xD;&#xA;&gt; maps of the world, not one of them reasonably; for they draw the world&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as round as if fashioned by compasses, encircled by the Okeanos River,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and Asia and Europe of a like extent. For myself, I will in a few&#xD;&#xA;&gt; words indicate the extent of the two, and how each should be drawn.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herodotus, *Histories* 4.36  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/8FRJ9.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/FU2Ru.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/fVNHK.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7405" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1770" RevisionGUID="ecc26ee2-2e8c-4b90-a6f1-f9b627aec90f" CreationDate="2016-06-26T21:29:47.080" UserId="1241" Text="Australian Aboriginal myths in some regards are a little unique in the sense that  many of their creatures are derived from the traditions of Aboriginal Dreamtime.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;A word of caution: many of these creatures are derived from the traditions of Aboriginal Dreamtime.  To understand them, the reader must have a decent understanding of what the Aboriginal Dreamtime is.  The only problem is that it can be quite difficult to understand.  So hereâ€™s a quote from Peter Weirâ€™s The Last Wave (1977) to help sum it up:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Aboriginals believe in two forms of time; two parallel streams of activity. One is the daily objective activity, the other is an infinite spiritual cycle called the â€˜dreamtimeâ€™, more real than reality itself. Whatever happens in the dreamtime establishes the values, symbols, and laws of Aboriginal society. It was believed that some people of unusual spiritual powers had contact with the dreamtime.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Basically, the Dreamtime is a sacred era of time in Australian Aboriginal mythology.  It is a kind of â€œtime before timeâ€ wherein the universe was created, mankind was created, and the Creators laid down the rules for how humans should interact with themselves and their environments.  During the Dreamtime, the Ancestor Spirits came to earth and gave birth to the land, plants, animals, and humans.  Afterwards they turned into other objects, such as animals and geologic locations such as hills.  If you are still confused, the topic of the Aboriginal Dreamtime is further discussed and detailed here on the internet. - [Top 10 Australian Mythical Creatures.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This stated there are several sources of [Australian Aboriginal mythology][2] to be found on the internet as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Top 10 Australian Mythical Creatures][1]&#xD;&#xA; - [Some Myths and Legends of the Australian Aborigines][3] by W. J. Thomas&#xD;&#xA; - Australian Mythology from [Myths and Legends of the World Myths Encyclopedia][4] &#xD;&#xA; - [Myths and Legends of the Australian Aborigines][5] by W. Ramsay Smith&#xD;&#xA; - Aboriginal  Mythology - [A biography of the Australian continent][6] &#xD;&#xA; - [Wikipedia][7] has a list of Australian Aboriginal mythological figures&#xD;&#xA; - [ABORIGINAL AUSTRALIA ART &amp; CULTURE CENTRE][8] - ALICE SPRINGS &#xD;&#xA; - The Dreaming from the [Australian Government][9]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hope this helps!&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-australian-mythical-creatures.php&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Aboriginal_mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/aus/mla/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Ar-Be/Australian-Mythology.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.amazon.com/Myths-Legends-Australian-Aborigines-Ramsay/dp/0486427099&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://austhrutime.com/aboriginal_mythology.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Australian_Aboriginal_mythological_figures&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://aboriginalart.com.au/culture/dreamtime2.html&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.australia.gov.au/about-australia/australian-story/dreaming" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7406" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1770" RevisionGUID="eef8a8dd-cf64-4df8-a125-039460dc371f" CreationDate="2016-06-27T09:55:58.747" UserId="2708" Comment="Fixed broken unicode character encoding in the quote" Text="Australian Aboriginal myths in some regards are a little unique in the sense that  many of their creatures are derived from the traditions of Aboriginal Dreamtime.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;A word of caution: many of these creatures are derived from the traditions of Aboriginal Dreamtime.  To understand them, the reader must have a decent understanding of what the Aboriginal Dreamtime is.  The only problem is that it can be quite difficult to understand.  So here’s a quote from Peter Weir’s The Last Wave (1977) to help sum it up:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Aboriginals believe in two forms of time; two parallel streams of activity. One is the daily objective activity, the other is an infinite spiritual cycle called the ‘dreamtime’, more real than reality itself. Whatever happens in the dreamtime establishes the values, symbols, and laws of Aboriginal society. It was believed that some people of unusual spiritual powers had contact with the dreamtime.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Basically, the Dreamtime is a sacred era of time in Australian Aboriginal mythology.  It is a kind of “time before time” wherein the universe was created, mankind was created, and the Creators laid down the rules for how humans should interact with themselves and their environments.  During the Dreamtime, the Ancestor Spirits came to earth and gave birth to the land, plants, animals, and humans.  Afterwards they turned into other objects, such as animals and geologic locations such as hills.  If you are still confused, the topic of the Aboriginal Dreamtime is further discussed and detailed here on the internet. - [Top 10 Australian Mythical Creatures.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This stated there are several sources of [Australian Aboriginal mythology][2] to be found on the internet as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Top 10 Australian Mythical Creatures][1]&#xD;&#xA; - [Some Myths and Legends of the Australian Aborigines][3] by W. J. Thomas&#xD;&#xA; - Australian Mythology from [Myths and Legends of the World Myths Encyclopedia][4] &#xD;&#xA; - [Myths and Legends of the Australian Aborigines][5] by W. Ramsay Smith&#xD;&#xA; - Aboriginal  Mythology - [A biography of the Australian continent][6] &#xD;&#xA; - [Wikipedia][7] has a list of Australian Aboriginal mythological figures&#xD;&#xA; - [ABORIGINAL AUSTRALIA ART &amp; CULTURE CENTRE][8] - ALICE SPRINGS &#xD;&#xA; - The Dreaming from the [Australian Government][9]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hope this helps!&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-australian-mythical-creatures.php&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Aboriginal_mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/aus/mla/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Ar-Be/Australian-Mythology.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.amazon.com/Myths-Legends-Australian-Aborigines-Ramsay/dp/0486427099&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://austhrutime.com/aboriginal_mythology.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Australian_Aboriginal_mythological_figures&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://aboriginalart.com.au/culture/dreamtime2.html&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.australia.gov.au/about-australia/australian-story/dreaming" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7407" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1770" RevisionGUID="eef8a8dd-cf64-4df8-a125-039460dc371f" CreationDate="2016-06-27T09:55:58.747" Comment="Proposed by 2708 approved by 57 edit id of 330" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7408" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1758" RevisionGUID="87048a96-f3a1-4315-9575-a133fa28559a" CreationDate="2016-06-28T07:57:22.580" UserId="2682" Comment="beefed up the information a little bit more" Text="All the three peoples in question are just as human as most others who inhabit the cosmos of Greek myth, granted that in this mythology all human beings are somewhat &quot;magical&quot; and of virtually comicbook divine origin. The Greeks believed that pretty much every tribe and nation in the world was descended from a child of one of their gods, which would mean that, technically, the very first of those peoples, especially their monarchs, were barely human, if at all. They were something beyond that: the bridge between God, or the gods, and whatever we are now.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What makes peoples like Kimmerioi [Cimmerians], Hyperboreoi [Hyperboreans] and Aithiopes [Ethiopians] special is more so their lifestyles, lifespans and/or geographical locations. Peoples living in wintry places have tended to romanticise parts of the world which do not experience the long seasons of extreme cold and frost occurring annually outside the tropics. This idealisation seems to be what transpired with the Aithiopes of Greek myth, who literally still today live in a land of perpetual summer and spring. It is possible that with the Hyperboreoi, who lived in a land far north of Greece, the mythographers were referring to a tropical region on the other side of the planet, regarding which they had acquired a bit of vague information (and which would be somewhere on the shores of the Pacific Ocean). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whatever the case that can be made on that is, the dwelling-places of the Hyperboreoi and the Aithiopes were so desirable that their lifestyles were imagined as virtually indistinguishable from those of the gods or from the dead who ended up on the Blessed Islands, which in themselves sound to me quite Polynesian or like tourist attractions on the East African coast.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;[![Watamu, Kenya][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;*Watamu Town, Kenya*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hence the idea either that these peoples were immortal or extremely long-lived and that even if they died, like the Hyperboreoi, e.g., death was a lovely affair involving metamorphosis into a swan in their local Eridanos River, the most beautiful stream of water in the world. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### THE KIMMERIOI ###&#xD;&#xA;With the Kimmerioi the opposite extreme was imagined in terms of their climate, which was perpetually dark, cold and misty, and in the middle of which, according to Ovid's *Metamorphoses*, Sleep and Death themselves made their home. Not all the myths agree in placing the Kimmerioi in such a situation, but, on account of the ones which do, one might in fact be led to consider the question of how a group of humans could survive in such conditions, how they ended up there in the first place, and why they would remain thus. Granted that there *are* inhabited parts of the world (much farther away than the myths locate the Kimmerioi, though) in which it is consecutive nighttime for long stretches of time, up to six months. This is, however, obversely interrupted by reciprocal lengths of consecutive daytime.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A.S. Kline's website [Poetry in Translation](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/OdindexBCDE.htm#Cimmerians) summarises the Kimmerioi as &quot;People living near the entrance to Hades... Herodotus places them in Scythia, and the modern name Crimea is perhaps derived from these sources. But Homer may have used the name to encompass all the peoples of Northern Europe.&quot; The Kimmerioi are mentioned both by Pliny the Elder and by Herodotus in close connection with the Skythoi [Scythians], who it is easy to locate in certain parts of Eastern Europe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### THE AITHIOPES &amp; THE HYPERBOREOI ###&#xD;&#xA;In Hesiod's *Catalogues of Women*, Gaia [the Earth] consorts both with her grandson the sea-god Poseidon and with her great-grandson Epaphos, the latter of whom is the Greek rendition of the Egyptian god Hapi [Apis]. Together they produce a number of nations inhabiting Africa and a few other places. Among these offspring are: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - the &quot;high-souled&quot; **Aithiopes**, whose domain stretched from South Sudan, and possibly Kenya, to India and southern Europe. (The term *Aithiopes* sometimes seems to have incorporated certain Indian and Arabian tribes, such as the Blemmyēs in Nonnus' epic the *Dionysiaka* [300s/400s AD], although according to the geographer Strabo [1st century BC—1st century AD], those Aithiopes &quot;who are in Asia, and those who are in Africa, do not differ from each other.&quot;) By the time of the Egyptian merchant Kosmas Indikopleustes, &quot;Cosmas Who Sailed to India&quot; [500s AD], *Aithiopes* denoted African peoples as far south as Zimbabwe. According to Pliny the Elder, this vast land &quot;Aethiopia&quot; was named after Aethiops, a son of the blacksmith-god Vulcan [the Roman Hephaistos]. (Perhaps his mother was a daughter of Epaphos and Gaia?)      &#xD;&#xA; - the &quot;dark&quot; Libyēs [Libyans]  &#xD;&#xA; - Pygmaioi, &quot;Pygmies,&quot; who lived in Libya and Morocco and are&#xD;&#xA;   connected with skilled metallurgy [like the Svartálfar, &quot;Black Elves,&quot; of&#xD;&#xA;   Norse mythology]&#xD;&#xA; - &quot;the boundless tribes of&quot; Melanokhrotoi [*Blackskins*]: more Svartálf-like people? &#xD;&#xA;[![Osiris the Lord of Perfect Black][2]][2] &#xD;&#xA;*or like (per one of this god's titles) Osiris* &quot;the Lord of Perfect Black&quot;?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Katoudaioi, [gnomes?] who lived underground, perhaps somewhere in Tunisia (and maybe the same as an ethnic group mentioned by Josephus as descended from Abraham and Keturah)&#xD;&#xA; - Hemikynoi [*Half-Dogs*], a &quot;proud&quot; race of Anubis-like dog-headed people &#xD;&#xA;[![St Christopher Cynocephalus][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;*in mediaeval Europe it was supposed that St Christopher had been one of them*&#xD;&#xA; - &quot;mare-milking&quot; **Skythoi**, closely associated with the **Kimmerioi**, even said to be the same as them. (In another version they are the descendants of Skythes son of Herakles [Hercules].)&#xD;&#xA; - Massagetai, a confederation of Eastern Iranian peoples also very&#xD;&#xA;   closely linked with the Skythoi and purported to be the ancestors of&#xD;&#xA;   the Alans, the Huns and the Goths. A popular ancient account (such as&#xD;&#xA;   reported, e.g., by Herodotus) of the death of Cyrus the Great, who&#xD;&#xA;   founded the Achaemenid Empire, is that Queen Tomyris of the&#xD;&#xA;   Massagetai killed him in battle.&#xD;&#xA; - and the **Hyperboreoi**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of the 9 groups listed above, only one, the Hemikynoi, for sure is not human (or is part human and part canine). My descriptions of the Melanokhrotoi and Katoudaioi are merely attempted interpretations which might be wrong, but my point being that in general this passage of the Catalogues is certainly intended to supply the ancestral origin of various ordinary human tribes in the Mediterranean Basin and around it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(One additional and especially notable exception only appears a little bit later in the passage, mentioning Laistrygon son of Poseidon, presumably by Gaia, from whom descended the monstrous man-eaters called the Laistrygones [Laestrygonians], who are encountered by the unfortunate Odysseus and his fellow Ithakan sailors in the *Odyssey*. Based on their description in the epic, they seem to have been gigantic in size, in particular their queen at the time, who was as large as a mountain.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no myth I'm aware of which indicates that any of these peoples existed before other humans necessarily. In fact, if the Catalogues are the main source for their origin story, then we know for certain, going by the chronology of the myths, that all these peoples are fairly young in comparison to other groups of the world. If they are descended from Epaphos, then they would've been born sometime after the Flood, since Epaphos is supposed to have survived that cataclysm. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### The Kingdom of Aithiopia ###&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The one discrepancy contained therein is that Epaphos' close friend and relative Phaethon was a prince of Aithiopia. This Phaethon is the son of the Sun who crashed to Earth and burned attempting to drive his father's flaming chariot. It is his own land to which Phaethon is said to have done the most damage with the Sun's fire, crashing the chariot into what is now the Sahara Desert. Phaethon's mother the Oceanid Klymene had divorced the Sun and married King Merops of Aithiopia, becoming an African queen. Merops seems to have been a regular mortal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Centuries later, Poseidon's daughter the sea-goddess Benthesikyme also married an Aithiopian king, this one named Enalos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A few generations before the reign of Enalos, Perseus (who slew the Gorgon Medusa) married Princess Andromeda of Aithiopia. Andromeda's parents Kepheus and Kassiopeia, who were rather human although they were close descendants of Zeus and Poseidon, may have held some territory in the lands of the Canaanites and the Philistines, on the border of Israel.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perses, the eldest child of Perseus and Andromeda, became king of Aithiopia when he grew up and then he also founded the Persian Empire, naming it after himself. Two of Perses' younger brothers were close ancestors of Herakles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Messagenet Communications Research also has an article on the [Aithiopians](http://messagenetcommresearch.com/myths/ppt/Ethiopians_1.html) which summarises them quite well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### The Kingdom of Hyperborea ###&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Pindar's description of the fabulously paradisaical land beyond the northern Rhipaion mountains it is always party-time among the Hyperboreoi, who are into both their music and their magic, as well as dancing. They also, however, take quite seriously a certain annual sacrifice to Apollon [Apollo] held on the Cycladic island of Delos which was sacred to the god. For their first ever contribution to this they sent out a delegation of two of their young women together with five men who were to hand-deliver the sacrifice to Delos, half a world away from their country, beyond a nigh-impassable mountain barrier. The delegates never made it back, however, and the Hyperboreoi seem to have thought that they had been murdered, so they opted to have the sacrifice couriered instead, via a chain network of peoples starting with their closest neighbours going towards the Cyclades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zabios was a king of Hyperborea whose daughter Themisto bore Apollon a son, Galeus. The oracle of Zeus at Dodona instructed Galeus to migrate from Hyperborea to Sicily where he built a sanctuary to his father Apollon. He was the ancestor of the Galeotai, a family of Sicilian soothsayers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The names of several other Hyperboreoi occur in the mythology. The only ones among them that don't seem to be human are the children of Boreas himself: three sons who were, according to Aaron Atsma on [The Theoi Project](http://www.theoi.com/Gigante/GigantesHyperboreades.html), winged, gigantic, immortal high priests of Apollon who served the Hyperboreoi; and three daughters Oupis, Hekaerge and Loxo, described as hunter nymphs who introduced the worship of Apollon's twin sister Artemis to Delos Island.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I have said this much of the Hyperboreoi, and let it suffice; for I&#xD;&#xA;&gt; do not tell the story of that Abaris, alleged to be a Hyperboreos [Hyperborean], who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; carried the [flying] arrow over the whole world, fasting all the while. But if&#xD;&#xA;&gt; there are men beyond Boreas [the North Wind], then there are others&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beyond the south. And I laugh to see how many have before now drawn&#xD;&#xA;&gt; maps of the world, not one of them reasonably; for they draw the world&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as round as if fashioned by compasses, encircled by the Okeanos River,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and Asia and Europe of a like extent. For myself, I will in a few&#xD;&#xA;&gt; words indicate the extent of the two, and how each should be drawn.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herodotus, *Histories* 4.36  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/8FRJ9.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/FU2Ru.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/fVNHK.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7409" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1771" RevisionGUID="d37dc481-c751-4b26-ad13-a8aa9f1046c6" CreationDate="2016-06-28T10:07:09.880" UserId="2682" Text="*This started out as a comment responding to other comments made on femtoRgon's Answer but then it got long (+ it's essentially an Answer too, so I figured I might as well add it as such).* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The King James Version is actually an update of previous English Bibles like the 1560s Bishop's Bible, which says that &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cain also knewe his wyfe&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and the 1580s Geneva Bible, which has: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kain also knewe his wife&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All three translations rely quite heavily on the ancient _Latin_ Vulgate Bible, actually, translating quite closely *cognovit autem Cain uxorem suam*, which could just as correctly be rendered &quot;Cain was cognizant of his wife&quot;. The English term _recognise_ comes from the same Latin root, referring to the action of perceiving or seeing someone with whom one is already familiar. So another way of putting it could very well be: &quot;Cain recognised/acknowledged his wife&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of all this the Ancient Greek—or Septuagint [or LXX], as it is called—translation says pretty much the same thing:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Καὶ ἔγνω Καιν τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;And Kain _egno_ his woman&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;English _know_ actually derives from that Greek word, which in this passage simply means sexual intercourse, the most intimate way in which a person can be known in most human contexts. (FemtoRgon's response addresses this quite well.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where the wife came from is simply never stated anywhere in the text. It can only be *inferred* from the scanty evidence provided in the narrative. For all we know (no pun intended), she could be a member of the same mysterious family referred to as &quot;the sons of God&quot; in Genesis 6, one of the most tantalisingly ambiguous passages in the Bible. [That tiny tidbit of Ch. 6 info inspired the Book of 1 Enoch, an 108-chapter anthology of what those who don't consider it canon might be inclined to see as a massive tome of ancient sci-fi fan-fiction. In Enoch these &quot;children of God&quot; are called the egregoroi {or in Aramaic, *iyrin*}, &quot;watchers&quot;]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [Greek] LXX, the same essential sentence construction employed in Genesis 4.17 is what begins the same chapter in v. 1, to describe the conception of Cain himself: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Αδαμ δὲ ἔγνω Ευαν τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;And Adam knew [*egno*] his wife Eua&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From that &quot;*know*ledge,&quot; Cain is born. A continuation of the theme of knowledge is most likely intended here: the first time the concept occurs in the story ever since the consumption of the fruit of the Tree of the _Knowledge_ in the park [or &quot;garden&quot; as it is almost invariably translated in English].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At any rate, by this point in the story I think it's safe to assume that Adam and Eve have definitely already met each other before, and Adam's knowing of his wife cannot mean that they are meeting for the first time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The arrival, in Ch. 6, of &quot;the sons of God&quot; (whoever those are) among &quot;the daughters of Adam&quot; (whatever that implies but also may not mean), is, however, not in the scope of most interpretations of the identity of Cain's wife (I am the first person I know to suggest that she might have been a Watcher). In 1 Enoch the iyrin/egregoroi first take human wives only generations after Cain's own family begins to grow. This would appear to follow the common interpretation that Cain was married to his sister.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The apocryphal Book of Jubilees names all the wives of the sons of Adam who are mentioned in Genesis, identifying Cain's wife as his own sister Awan and Seth's wife as his own sister Azura. In another tradition Cain's wife is called Aqlima, and she is in fact his twin. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The understanding in the sister-wife interpretation is basic and standard: Cain kills his brother Abel for some reason or other. Cain then either takes one of his sisters (in the version featuring Aqlima, Abel also has a twin sister) and marries her after his flight from home, or he is in fact already married to her at this point. There does not appear to be any ancient interpretation in which Cain somehow meets a relative after his flight and then only marrying her. Which is not to say that it is impossible for it to be read that way. It absolutely leaves itself an open question. And a mystery. (Unless, i.e., stuff like the Book of Jubilees should be taken to heart.)     " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7410" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1771" RevisionGUID="7c28866d-7a91-4920-a9f4-2063aebb38ab" CreationDate="2016-06-28T15:11:09.377" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; slightly tweaked info" Text="*This started out as a comment responding to other comments made on femtoRgon's Answer but then it got long (+ it's essentially an Answer too, so I figured I might as well add it as such).* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The King James Version is actually an update of previous English Bibles like the 1560s Bishop's Bible, which says that &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cain also knewe his wyfe&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and the 1580s Geneva Bible, which has: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kain also knewe his wife&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All three translations rely quite heavily on the ancient _Latin_ Vulgate Bible, actually, translating quite closely *cognovit autem Cain uxorem suam*, which could just as correctly be rendered &quot;Cain was cognizant of his wife&quot;. The English term _recognise_ comes from the same Latin root, referring to the action of perceiving or seeing someone with whom one is already familiar. So another way of putting it could very well be: &quot;Cain recognised/acknowledged his wife&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of all this the Ancient Greek—or Septuagint [or LXX], as it is called—translation says pretty much the same thing:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Καὶ ἔγνω Καιν τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;And Kain _egno_ his woman&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;English _know_ actually derives from that Greek word, which in this passage simply means sexual intercourse, the most intimate way in which a person can be known in most human contexts. (FemtoRgon's response addresses this quite well.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where the wife came from is simply never stated anywhere in the text. It can only be *inferred* from the scanty evidence provided in the narrative. For all we know (no pun intended), she could be a member of the same mysterious family referred to as &quot;the sons of God&quot; in Genesis 6, one of the most tantalisingly ambiguous passages in the Bible. [That tiny tidbit of Ch. 6 info inspired the Book of 1 Enoch, an 108-chapter anthology of what those who don't consider it canon might be inclined to see as a massive tome of ancient sci-fi fan-fiction. In Enoch these &quot;children of God&quot; are called the egregoroi {or in Aramaic, *iyrin*}, &quot;watchers&quot;]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [Greek] LXX, the same essential sentence construction employed in Genesis 4.17 is what begins the same chapter in v. 1, to describe the conception of Cain himself: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Αδαμ δὲ ἔγνω Ευαν τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;And Adam knew [*egno*] his woman Eua&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From that &quot;*know*ledge,&quot; Cain is born. A continuation of the theme of knowledge is most likely intended here: the first time the concept occurs in the story ever since the consumption of the fruit of the Tree of the _Knowledge_ in the park [or &quot;garden&quot; as it is almost invariably translated in English].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At any rate, by this point in the story I think it's safe to assume that Adam and Eve have definitely already met each other before, and Adam's knowing of his wife cannot mean that they are meeting for the first time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The arrival, in Ch. 6, of &quot;the sons of God&quot; (whoever those are) among &quot;the daughters of Adam&quot; (whatever that implies but also may not mean), is, however, not in the scope of most interpretations of the identity of Cain's wife (I am the first person I know to suggest that she might have been a Watcher). In 1 Enoch the iyrin/egregoroi first take human wives only generations after Cain's own family begins to grow. This would appear to follow the common interpretation that Cain was married to his sister.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The apocryphal Book of Jubilees names all the wives of the sons of Adam who are mentioned in Genesis, identifying Cain's wife as his own sister Awan and Seth's wife as his own sister Azura. In another tradition Cain's wife is called Aqlima, and she is in fact his twin. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The understanding in the sister-wife interpretation is basic and standard: Cain kills his brother Abel for some reason or other. Cain then either takes one of his sisters (in the version featuring Aqlima, Abel also has a twin sister) and marries her after his flight from home, or he is in fact already married to her at this point. There does not appear to be any ancient interpretation in which Cain somehow meets a relative after his flight and only then marries her. Which is not to say that it is impossible for it to be read that way. It absolutely leaves itself an open question. And a mystery. (Unless, i.e., stuff like the Book of Jubilees should be taken to heart.)     " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7412" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1773" RevisionGUID="6cfbe15e-79fb-49f9-9258-ce48248db51e" CreationDate="2016-06-29T18:49:33.003" UserId="43" Text="[On this question][1], I and another poster claim on the basis of internet sources that Ganymede was Zeus' male lover. A commenter challenged that, however, and I haven't yet found a reliable source to say that he was. So what is the earliest source to make that claim?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/7/did-zeus-have-any-male-lovers" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7413" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1773" RevisionGUID="6cfbe15e-79fb-49f9-9258-ce48248db51e" CreationDate="2016-06-29T18:49:33.003" UserId="43" Text="What is the earliest source to claim that Zeus and Ganymede were lovers?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7414" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1773" RevisionGUID="6cfbe15e-79fb-49f9-9258-ce48248db51e" CreationDate="2016-06-29T18:49:33.003" UserId="43" Text="|greek|zeus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7415" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1774" RevisionGUID="4fc53bc3-fe92-45a3-bf65-72c57e69de45" CreationDate="2016-06-29T19:20:59.547" UserId="2729" Text="I can think of Psyche, Glaucus, and Cyrene without looking online. P.S Cyrene was made into a river spirit so she is basically immortal.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7416" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1775" RevisionGUID="121b5590-f82f-491b-b136-ad8724b39696" CreationDate="2016-06-29T20:18:46.677" UserId="2731" Text="Ovid mentions Jupiter's love for Ganymede him in Metamorphoses X, saying&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The king of the gods once burned with love for Phrygian Ganymede, and to win him Jupiter chose to be something other than he was.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That would be about 8 CE.&#xD;&#xA;Taken from &lt;http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph10.htm#484521421&gt;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7418" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1776" RevisionGUID="8649ae9b-7aac-46bb-8584-339c0cef77a3" CreationDate="2016-06-30T00:55:01.453" UserId="2687" Text="A triple pantheon of goddesses governing fate appears in a variety of European (and perhaps other) mythologies. The Greek Moirai, the Roman Fatae, the Norse Norns. Often they are associated with weaving a tapestry of fate. For example, [of the Norns][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mightily wove they the web of fate, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;While Bralund's towns were&#xD;&#xA;&gt; trembling all; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;And there the golden threads they wove,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;And in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; moon's hall fast they made them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the earliest example of this group of goddesses? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe19.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7419" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1776" RevisionGUID="8649ae9b-7aac-46bb-8584-339c0cef77a3" CreationDate="2016-06-30T00:55:01.453" UserId="2687" Text="What is the earliest myth of the three Fates?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7420" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1776" RevisionGUID="8649ae9b-7aac-46bb-8584-339c0cef77a3" CreationDate="2016-06-30T00:55:01.453" UserId="2687" Text="|comparative|fates|norns|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7422" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1777" RevisionGUID="18d1a1b2-2684-4e1c-895f-98ed567dc78d" CreationDate="2016-06-30T03:01:55.143" UserId="967" Text="[Wikipedia][1] gives us the four &quot;3-fate pantheons.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Oldest**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you list, the [Moirai][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Their name means &quot;Parts.&quot; &quot;Shares&quot; or &quot;Alottted Portions.&quot; The individuals were **Klotho** (Clotho), the &quot;the Spinner,&quot; who spun the thread of life, **Lakhesis** (Lachesis), &quot;the Apportioner of Lots&quot;, who measured it, and **Atropos** (or Aisa), &quot;She who cannot be turned,&quot; who cut it short. Zeus Moiragetes, the god of fate, was their leader. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3 Moirai, who's names were Klotho, Lakhesis, and Atropos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**[Parcae/Fatae][5]** no doubt where we get the word FATE from&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The names of the three Parcae were:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;- Nona (Greek equivalent Clotho), who spun the thread of life from her distaff onto her spindle;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;- Decima (Greek Lachesis), who measured the thread of life with her rod;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;- Morta (Greek Atropos), who cut the thread of life and chose the manner of a person's death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Literally the same as the greek Moirai.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The [Sudice][4]**, a lesser known one&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Also known as: Sudicky, Suđaje ; Rodzanice, Narecznice, Sudiczki (Polish Mythology)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;As Slavic mythology tells, the Sudice are spirits of fate and judgement. &#xD;&#xA;A common story tells of three elder women spinners who approach babies' cradles and read their fates. One woman has an enlarged bottom lip from continuously salivating thread, the second woman has an inch-wide thumb for holding the thread's knots, and the third has a massive foot for pedaling the spinning wheels.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Note that there are little to no sources on Slavic mythology, so I could be incorrect.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The [Norns][3]** as you list&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;A beautiful hall stands there under the ash tree by the well, and out of that hall come three maidens, those who are thus named: **Urd, Verdandi, Skuld**. These maidens shape lives for people; we call them norns.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They are Urd, Verdandi, and Skul, as stated in bold.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#Gee, bleh, how do you know which one is the oldest?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Greek: c. 900–800 BC onward.][6] [Roman:AD 98–117][9] [Slavic lands in 862][8]  [Norse: primarily in the 13th century.][7]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fates&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Moirai.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://search.credoreference.com/content/topic/norns_norse_mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://mythandlore.blogspot.com/2013/08/sudice-slavic-mythology.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parcae&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7423" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1618" RevisionGUID="8c922695-1964-4293-8498-4968a075c63d" CreationDate="2016-06-30T05:44:24.217" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="7424" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1776" RevisionGUID="5018c65f-2ebf-48ff-949c-efc18860a68e" CreationDate="2016-06-30T11:41:29.333" UserId="967" Comment="tags, some other stuff" Text="A triple pantheon of goddesses governing fate appears in a variety of European (and perhaps other) mythologies. The Greek Moirai, the Roman Fatae, the Norse Norns. Often they are associated with weaving a tapestry of fate. For example, [of the Norns][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mightily wove they | the web of fate, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;While Bralund's towns | were &#xD;&#xA;&gt; trembling all; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;And there the golden | threads they wove,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;And in the &#xD;&#xA;&gt; moon's hall | fast they made them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the earliest example of this group of goddesses? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe19.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7425" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1776" RevisionGUID="5018c65f-2ebf-48ff-949c-efc18860a68e" CreationDate="2016-06-30T11:41:29.333" UserId="967" Comment="tags, some other stuff" Text="|comparative|fates|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7426" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1675" RevisionGUID="0bea22d5-8d37-491e-991b-b8328a6f9ee8" CreationDate="2016-06-30T12:00:58.090" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="7427" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1778" RevisionGUID="51cec028-7362-4b56-acd0-4008d4eefa4c" CreationDate="2016-06-30T13:06:02.250" UserId="2731" Text="I agree that there isn't evidence that Artemis was exclusively a lesbian, and no myth as far as I know that explicitly states that either, but there is was such an implication.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [Callisto](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callisto_(mythology)) myth, Zeus takes on the form of Artemis in order to have sex with Callisto, one of her followers. He does this to &quot;lure her into his embrace&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So even though she might not have been popularly thought of as such, Zeus and Callisto at least share enough belief that Artemis might have sex with her female follower for Zeus to try it and Callisto to fall for it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I agree that she was definitely not strictly a lesbian, and maybe not at all, but there was some implication of homosexuality even in ancient times." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7429" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1779" RevisionGUID="deb8ffe0-b11b-4814-99e2-6f3093791b15" CreationDate="2016-06-30T15:44:04.120" UserId="42" Text="Ganymede's story is told in the Illiad, in the 8th century BC (as the comment refers to):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...and godlike Ganymedes that was born the fairest of mortal men; wherefore the gods caught him up on high to be cupbearer to Zeus by reason of his beauty, that he might dwell with the immortals.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Homer, Illiad, book 20](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D20%3Acard%3D199)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ganymede being a romantic/sexual lover of Zeus isn't stated there, though (at least, not overtly).  You don't have to look too much further to find that, though.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the 6th century BC, from Theognis:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The love of boys has given delight ever since Ganymede  &#xD;&#xA;    Was loved by Kronos' son himself, king of the immortals,  &#xD;&#xA;Who seized and brought him up to Olympos and made him  &#xD;&#xA;Divine, possessing as he did the lovely bloom of boyhood.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Theognis, fragment](http://www.as.miami.edu/personal/corax/theognis.html), lines 1345 - 1348&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And from the 5th century BC, from Pindar:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...then it was that the god of the splendid trident seized you, his mind overcome with desire, and carried you away on his team of golden horses to the highest home of widely-honored Zeus, to which at a later time Ganymede came also, to perform the same service for Zeus.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Pindar, Olympian 1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0162%3Abook%3DO.%3Apoem%3D1)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And in the 4th century BC, from Plato:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...then the fountain of that stream which Zeus, when he was in love with Ganymede, called “desire” flows copiously upon the lover;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Plato, Phaedrus, pg 255](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0174%3Atext%3DPhaedrus%3Apage%3D255)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Among others..." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7430" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1780" RevisionGUID="e4132166-a0e0-4e22-9286-ab7f735c2e80" CreationDate="2016-06-30T21:42:02.430" UserId="2664" Text="The thing is, the ancient Greeks and Romans simply didn't have categories for &quot;gay&quot; or &quot;lesbian&quot;.  In modern times, their idea of sexuality is described as &quot;polymorphic perversity&quot;, which translates to &quot;whatever feels good&quot; -- men, women, children, animals, whatever.  While data on women is sketchy (their doings were beneath notice for most writers), we do have Sappho's erotic poems making it clear that women did have sex with other women at least sometimes.  Men might well have a wife, perhaps concubines, fool around with their slaves, and/or sleep with male friends (which last was considered unremarkable and routine).  Some people were known to prefer men or women exclusively, but this was considered simply a matter of personal taste.  There is at least one dialogue where two writers &quot;argue&quot; the comparative benefits of male or female lovers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, male/female relations still had political ramifications, because of potential children (and marriage), not to mention drastic power issues.  The three &quot;virgin goddesses&quot; (Artemis, Hestia, Athena), and later the Vestal Virgins, were called that not because they were sexless or even chaste, but because they were not bound to any male. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7431" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1781" RevisionGUID="b7a0ad7c-4da1-4823-bf3f-2bf94562ad90" CreationDate="2016-07-01T11:12:45.330" UserId="742" Text="Which, if any, god(s) in the ancient world is depicted as holding a shepherd's crook? I am looking for gods depicted in such ways in statues, idols, drawings, etc..." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7432" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1781" RevisionGUID="b7a0ad7c-4da1-4823-bf3f-2bf94562ad90" CreationDate="2016-07-01T11:12:45.330" UserId="742" Text="Which god holds a shepherd's crook?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7433" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1781" RevisionGUID="b7a0ad7c-4da1-4823-bf3f-2bf94562ad90" CreationDate="2016-07-01T11:12:45.330" UserId="742" Text="|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7434" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1777" RevisionGUID="a3eee362-b749-4429-aad9-bf4671b1e5c4" CreationDate="2016-07-01T13:02:43.920" UserId="201" Comment="fixed a typo" Text="[Wikipedia][1] gives us the four &quot;3-fate pantheons.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Oldest**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you list, the [Moirai][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Their name means &quot;Parts.&quot; &quot;Shares&quot; or &quot;Alottted Portions.&quot; The individuals were **Klotho** (Clotho), the &quot;the Spinner,&quot; who spun the thread of life, **Lakhesis** (Lachesis), &quot;the Apportioner of Lots&quot;, who measured it, and **Atropos** (or Aisa), &quot;She who cannot be turned,&quot; who cut it short. Zeus Moiragetes, the god of fate, was their leader. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3 Moirai, whose names were Klotho, Lakhesis, and Atropos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**[Parcae/Fatae][5]** no doubt where we get the word FATE from&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The names of the three Parcae were:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;- Nona (Greek equivalent Clotho), who spun the thread of life from her distaff onto her spindle;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;- Decima (Greek Lachesis), who measured the thread of life with her rod;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;- Morta (Greek Atropos), who cut the thread of life and chose the manner of a person's death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Literally the same as the greek Moirai.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The [Sudice][4]**, a lesser known trio&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Also known as: Sudicky, Suđaje; Rodzanice, Narecznice, Sudiczki (Polish Mythology)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;As Slavic mythology tells, the Sudice are spirits of fate and judgement. &#xD;&#xA;A common story tells of three elder women spinners who approach babies' cradles and read their fates. One woman has an enlarged bottom lip from continuously salivating thread, the second woman has an inch-wide thumb for holding the thread's knots, and the third has a massive foot for pedaling the spinning wheels.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Note that there are little to no sources on Slavic mythology, so I could be incorrect.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The [Norns][3]** as you list&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;A beautiful hall stands there under the ash tree by the well, and out of that hall come three maidens, those who are thus named: **Urd, Verdandi, Skuld**. These maidens shape lives for people; we call them norns.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They are Urd, Verdandi, and Skul, as stated in bold.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#Gee, bleh, how do you know which one is the oldest?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Greek: c. 900–800 BC onward.][6] [Roman:AD 98–117][9] [Slavic lands in 862][8]  [Norse: primarily in the 13th century.][7]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fates&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Moirai.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://search.credoreference.com/content/topic/norns_norse_mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://mythandlore.blogspot.com/2013/08/sudice-slavic-mythology.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parcae&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7435" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1777" RevisionGUID="a3eee362-b749-4429-aad9-bf4671b1e5c4" CreationDate="2016-07-01T13:02:43.920" Comment="Proposed by 201 approved by 967 edit id of 331" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7436" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1782" RevisionGUID="0d162591-b728-4102-b00d-1c8d6cc2eb12" CreationDate="2016-07-01T14:07:51.873" UserId="2739" Text="The Egyptian God [Osiris][2] is generally depicted holding a [Shephard's Crook][1]. It is also held by Pharaoh's as proof of their right of kingship.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crook_and_flail&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7437" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1783" RevisionGUID="2002ec58-17d7-4702-a253-833b1071e899" CreationDate="2016-07-01T14:20:51.127" UserId="2739" Text="In that same Wikipedia link you provided, it says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Malory dissociates Nimue from the general title of Lady of the Lake, so that when Sir Balin kills (one of) the Ladies of the Lake Nimue can continue to play a pivotal role in the plot.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Lady of the Lake&quot; is merely a title, one that passes to different women throughout the tales of Arthurian Legend, Nimue being one of them. So there is only ever one lady IN the lake at any one time, but there are multiple ladies who have once held the title. One of them gave Excalibur to Arthur. One of them (presumably the first) was the one who charmed Merlin. And the one Sir Balin kills is the one who succeeds Nimue.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only connection that there seems to be between the two ladies you mention are that Nimue must have given some training to her successor before leaving. Other than that minor mentoring role, there isn't much connection to be had, other than the fact they share the same title.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7438" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1784" RevisionGUID="f9ef8392-0a89-4341-8768-2dd1688df8e3" CreationDate="2016-07-01T14:25:57.650" UserId="2731" Text="[Thalia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalia_(Muse)), the Greek muse of comedy, is also often seen holding a shepherd's crook, as in [this](http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Mythology/Thalia.html) picture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As DisturbedNeo said, in Egyptian mythology it (along with a flail) is held by pharaohs as symbols of power, and is thus held by Osiris as a &quot;pharaoh of the dead&quot;." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7439" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1781" RevisionGUID="ba6eee0a-9700-411c-b3f9-b457ef0e24fc" CreationDate="2016-07-01T19:56:19.923" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|gods|symbolism+|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7440" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="165" RevisionGUID="378e6867-2e40-4a2d-8263-a3f3b3c7ab8a" CreationDate="2016-07-02T02:12:44.510" UserId="430" Comment="tidied the grammar up a little " Text="In Irish mythology, Ireland was once inhabited by the [*Fir Bolg*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fir_Bolg), who were descended from the earlier [*Muintir Nemid*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemed). The Fir Bolg were later defeated by another group of Nemed's descendants known as the [*Tuatha Dé Danann*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuatha_D%C3%A9_Danann) in the [Battle of Cath Maige Tuired](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cath_Maige_Tuired). However, the victors gave the *Fir Bolg* a quarter of Ireland to live in. According to Wikipedia,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [T]he Tuath Dé offer them one quarter of Ireland as their own; they choose Connacht and are mentioned very little after this in the myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Clearly the *Fir Bolg* sunk into oblivion, but they were not exterminated. When the [Milesians](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milesians_%28Irish%29) conquered Ireland, they were apparently still around. [This site](http://homepage.eircom.net/~kthomas/history.htm) says, for instance,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The races that occupied the land when the so-called Milesians came, chiefly the Firbolg and the Tuatha De Danann, were certainly not exterminated by the conquering Milesians. Those two peoples formed the basis of the future population, which was dominated and guided, and had its characteristics moulded, by the far less numerous but more powerful Milesian aristocracy and soldiery.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what happened to the Fir Bolg ultimately? When were they last mentioned as a distinct identity?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7441" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="165" RevisionGUID="378e6867-2e40-4a2d-8263-a3f3b3c7ab8a" CreationDate="2016-07-02T02:12:44.510" Comment="Proposed by 430 approved by 967, 62 edit id of 332" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7443" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1785" RevisionGUID="1f873138-c154-4273-a959-0908c21011a4" CreationDate="2016-07-03T20:17:15.003" UserId="292" Text="On [Theoi.com][1] and a couple of other [Greek myth sites][2], they say that four of the male Titans (Koios, Hyperion, Krios and Iapetos) symbolized the four corners of the Earth. Does anyone have a source for this or know more about it?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanKoios.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.greekmythology.com/Titans/Coeus/coeus.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7444" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1785" RevisionGUID="1f873138-c154-4273-a959-0908c21011a4" CreationDate="2016-07-03T20:17:15.003" UserId="292" Text="Titans as four corners of the Earth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7445" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1785" RevisionGUID="1f873138-c154-4273-a959-0908c21011a4" CreationDate="2016-07-03T20:17:15.003" UserId="292" Text="|greek|titans|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7446" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1786" RevisionGUID="f487eeff-1266-4c83-a245-77441b84130b" CreationDate="2016-07-03T21:07:17.953" UserId="967" Text="I gave an [answer][1] on this subject;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They held the corners of the earth originally, before Atlas did. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are no primary sources from Theoi about his subject, which means, that, there are none.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They give a little about its origin...&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The cosmic story of five Titanes--four holding the corners of heaven--may be **Phoenician** in origin. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The six Titans, 4 directions + 1 ocean + 1 time,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Hyperion in the west, Iapetos (Iapetus) in the east, Koios (Coeus) in the north and Krios (Crius) in the south. The fifth Kronos (Cronus, Time) stood in the centre, and the sixth, Okeanos (Oceanus), circled the world in the form of the river Ocean.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**But the fact remains, that, there are no sources for you.** :(&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/1226/967" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7449" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1787" RevisionGUID="e4d46727-c9de-4989-8439-749bf3f89fe4" CreationDate="2016-07-04T21:42:25.567" UserId="501" Text="[Ettins][1] in the D&amp;D universe are described as giants which have two heads, and this has carried over to many different games that draw from the D&amp;D lore, for example Dwarf Fortress and many roguelikes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the [original etymology][2] for the word doesn't imply any dicephalous nature of the giants, and I was unable to find an earlier citation that described ettins with two heads. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was the description of ettins having two heads based on Norse (or any other) mythology? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ettin_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&amp;search=ettin" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7450" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1787" RevisionGUID="e4d46727-c9de-4989-8439-749bf3f89fe4" CreationDate="2016-07-04T21:42:25.567" UserId="501" Text="Why do ettins have two heads?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7451" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1787" RevisionGUID="e4d46727-c9de-4989-8439-749bf3f89fe4" CreationDate="2016-07-04T21:42:25.567" UserId="501" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7452" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1788" RevisionGUID="df81fa9e-434e-49c5-94aa-949052769d08" CreationDate="2016-07-05T00:33:35.127" UserId="2707" Text="I'll admit my Norse mythology is rather rusty, but I do recall after an incident these two particular gods saw each other as mortal enemies and would eventually kill each other at Ragnarok. What was it that turned them against one another (I vaguely remember a story where Heimdal caught Loki stealing a piece of jewelry from Freya and kicked his ass over it but the details have eluded me)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7453" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1788" RevisionGUID="df81fa9e-434e-49c5-94aa-949052769d08" CreationDate="2016-07-05T00:33:35.127" UserId="2707" Text="How did the animosity between Loki and Heimdal start?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7454" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1788" RevisionGUID="df81fa9e-434e-49c5-94aa-949052769d08" CreationDate="2016-07-05T00:33:35.127" UserId="2707" Text="|norse|loki|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7455" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1789" RevisionGUID="60fb6ada-c18c-4bf1-8471-8d91e2b612a5" CreationDate="2016-07-05T01:16:16.380" UserId="2707" Text="I always thought (and maybe I was wrong) ettin was a corruption of or derived from Jotun, the original name for Norse Frost Giants; many of which had multiple heads though how many one had often varied with the individual (from a book I once read concerning Norse trolls, a Frost Giant having as many as five hundred heads was not impossible)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7456" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1790" RevisionGUID="f2121070-d61c-4b3c-bc2a-c4773027bd21" CreationDate="2016-07-05T08:18:09.180" UserId="1358" Text="Actual folklore is stuff folk still say &amp; do. It can be very hard to establish the origins of folkloric material. The linguistic connection is probably your best bet.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You might find this book interesting, though it is concerned with archaeology &amp; history for the most part.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Search of the Picts: A Celtic Dark Age Nation by Elizabeth Sutherland&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Trans-Atlantic Publications,  1994  ISBN 0094750106" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7458" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1791" RevisionGUID="4f4d2107-c2c8-4274-a1c7-20d7bd7c442a" CreationDate="2016-07-05T13:19:37.837" UserId="2739" Text="I don't think it was as much Loki doing anything to Heimdallr in particular as much as it was the fact Loki betrayed all the Aesir when he orchestrating Baldur's death. It is this reason that Loki was imprisoned to begin with.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is prophesied that, come Ragnarok, Loki will escape from his bonds and join forces with the Giants against the Gods. After that, he runs into Heimdallr and the two mortally wound each other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Basically, Loki killed Heimdallr's friend and then allied himself with Heimdallr's enemies." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7459" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1745" RevisionGUID="a3707a2a-ed99-429f-8e56-54ea74a377f3" CreationDate="2016-07-05T17:14:25.533" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar; added some info; &amp; corrected 1 detail" Text="Examples of this do not seem to especially abound. Perhaps unsurprisingly, people tend to portray God or the gods to be whatever colour they themselves are, for better or worse. Nonetheless, as you have observed, such a phenomenon is not out of the question. Your mention of black Madonnas makes me think of [![St Mauritius][1]][1] the legendary Roman soldier St Mauritius [Maurice], who is remarkably popular in Europe (especially Switzerland), being the patron saint of Austria, as well as of one Spanish city, two cities in Germany and four places in Italy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Conversely St George is the patron saint of Ethiopia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## AZTECA &amp; MAYA ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In late Aztec mythology the deities Ometecuhtli and Omecihuatl had four sons who were called the Tezcatlipocas, &quot;Smoking Mirrors,&quot; who created all the other gods, as well as the world and humankind. Each Tezcatlipoca was a different colour. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first, simply called Tezcatlipoca, was the **Black Tezcatlipoca**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Quetzalcóatl, often occurring as the twin of the first one,  was the **White Tezcatlipoca**. Regarding him and a few other pre-Columbian deities in the Americas there have been controversial theories claiming that their &quot;whiteness&quot; is a reference to Europeans (or even Atlanteans) whose arrival in the so-called New World antedates that of Columbus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The third was called Huitzilopochtli, who was the **Blue Tezcatlipoca**; and the last was Xipe Totec, the **Red Tezcatlipoca**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Essentially the same formula and myth recurs among the Maya with the Bacabs, who are the four sons of Itzamna and Ixchel, each placed by their grandfather the supreme god Hunab-Ku at one of the four cardinal points of the compass to support the structure of the sky. Each Bacab was a different colour: the Western one was **black**, the Northern one **white**, the Southern **yellow** and the Eastern **red**. These, however, are described as &quot;iguana-like,&quot; so perhaps they don't count, unless perhaps they are iguana-like humanoids. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## BUDDHISM from China ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The four Tezcatlipocas and the four Bacabs bear a striking resemblance to an ancient Indian concept of four deities who each ruled over and guarded one of the four cardinal compass-point regions of the world. Both Hinduism and Buddhism arose from the same region, from peoples who venerated the same gods. In Chinese Buddhism these four world guardians, who would be readily recognisable to Hindus, are now called Sì Dà Tiānwáng, the &quot;[Four Great Heavenly Kings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Heavenly_Kings).&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![North, South, East &amp; West Kings][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Kubera [Kuvera], also known as Vaiśravaṇa, is the North King, who&#xD;&#xA;   rules over daemons called the Kinnaras and the Yakṣas. He is&#xD;&#xA;   **yellow**.&#xD;&#xA; - Virūḍhaka is the South King, who rules the Kumbhāṇḍas. He is&#xD;&#xA;   **blue**, although sometimes depicted or described as **green**.&#xD;&#xA; - Dhṛtarāṣṭra [Dhritarashtra] is the East King, who rules over&#xD;&#xA;   creatures called the Gandharvas. He is **white**.&#xD;&#xA; - Virūpākṣa is the West King, who reigns over the Nāgas. He is **red**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## NORSEMEN ##&#xD;&#xA;**The Svartálfar**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his 2002 essay [The Aesir and the Elves](http://www.germanicmythology.com/original/AesirandElves.pdf), William P. Reaves references the close association of the Æsir (who we know for sure to be deities venerated by the Norsemen) with the Álfar, &quot;Elves,&quot; who we know tantalisingly little about but who it seems were a race of divinities related to both the Æsir and the Dwarves. According to John Lindow's *Norse Mythology: A Guide to the Gods, Heroes, Rituals, and Beliefs*, there are references in mediaeval Icelandic tradition to something called the *álfablót*, which translates to something like a &quot;sacrifice to the elves.&quot; Based on this it seems that the Álfar were venerated (or &quot;worshipped&quot;) in Scandinavia at some point. In Hávamál 159-160 &quot;both Æsir and Álfar&quot; are explicitly identified as *tíva*, &quot;gods.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Snorri Sturluson is the only pre-modern mythographer who mentions any distinct classifications among the Elves, in that he says that some of them are &quot;bright&quot; or &quot;white,&quot; and even dwell in heavens which are above and beyond the Æsir's home Asgarð;  while some Elves are &quot;dark&quot; or &quot;black.&quot; Lindow notes two instances of Snorri saying that the Dwarves live in Svartálfaheim, &quot;Black-Elf World/Home.&quot; In Skáldskaparmál 35, Loki is forced to swear that he will get the Svartálfar (*Black Elves*, who in the Gylfaginning are &quot;blacker than pitch&quot;) to replace the golden hair of Þórr's [Thor's] wife Sif, which Loki has maliciously or mischievously shorn off, with new locks that could attach themselves to her scalp and continue growing indistinguishable from ordinary hair. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The very next description is confusing in that it then has a family of Dwarves called Ívaldasynir (*Ívaldi's Sons*: a company name?), fulfilling this role of hair-supply. Reaves makes the case that Ívaldasynir are therefore Black Elves (= Elven Dwarves, or Dwarfen Elves?). They are significantly integral characters to the mythology since they end up creating not just a new head of resplendent hair for the thunder-god's wife but also some of the most important weapons and artifacts of the Æsir.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Vanir (&amp; the 'Whitest' of the Æsir)**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Heimdallr, the watchman of the Æsir's home, Asgarð, bears some unusual features like (presumably natural) golden teeth, which give him the epithet Gullintanni. He is also, in the Gylfaginning, called *Hvíti Ás*, the &quot;White Ás&quot; [*Æsir* is plural of *Ás*], as though to suggest either that the Æsir are not themselves white or that Heimdallr's whiteness is really peculiar (starkly **milk**-white?). The poem *Þrymskviða* tantalises yet further in describing him as *Hvítastr Ása*, the &quot;Whitest Ás,&quot; followed immediately by the statement that he possesses great foreknowledge &quot;like other Vanir.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Vanir were a tribe of gods who at some point rivalled the Æsir but were eventually assimilated by them, so that we have originally Van [*singular of* Vanir] characters like the god Njörð and his children becoming Æsir. It is most unusual, however, for a son of Óðinn [Odin], the chiefest of the Æsir, to be described as a Van, especially in the same passage that he has just been called an Ás.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The solution to this might be in Heimdallr's maternity, which *per se* is an anomaly in Norse mythology, as he is given his birth by nine mothers whose names are provided but whose origin is never explained. Conveniently, the sea-giant Ægir has nine daughters. *In*conveniently, however, their names don't match those of Heimdallr's mothers. An alternative interpretation for the identification of the nine is that they are the daughters of the giant Geirröðr. The myths explicitly mention only two daughters of this giant but both their names are included in the list of Heimdallr's mothers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps the discrepancies can be avoided altogether by linking the possible allusion to Heimdallr being a Van with his strange birth situation. Maybe the nine mothers of this Ás were actually Vanir. This would not preclude them from still being giantesses, as a few Vanir appear to have been just that. Pushing the link to a further conclusion could indicate that the Vanir were &quot;whiter&quot; than the Æsir. Maybe they were more immediate descendants of the frost giants and thus were literally snow-white(?). At any rate it would take us some distance beyond Lindow's resignation to the fact that &#xD;&#xA;&gt; There are no indications of Heimdall's membership among the vanir. Nor has his whiteness ever been explained. (2001:170)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If this snowy Vanir theory is at all close to the mark, I suppose it would beg the question of what complexion the Scandinavian/Norse worshippers of the Æsir and the Vanir perceived *themselves* as having. In a lot of scholarship regarding Eurasian religions and myths, particularly in the 19th &amp; 20th centuries, it has been quite popular to perceive the stories about conflicts between older deities and newer ones as indicating waves of invasions by settlers who usurped and assimilated indigenous cultures and stories into their own. If there is any merit to that, perhaps this is what the war between the Vanir and the Æsir represents: friction among at least two different people-groups. This, however, cuts against the usual grain of theories in this field, because in this case it would be a &quot;white[r]&quot; population being invaded by a &quot;dark[er]&quot; group.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding the Elves who live above and beyond the Æsir, the Gylfaginning says that they are brighter than the sun to look at, which resonates with Benjamin Thorpe's translation of Heimdallr as *hvítastr:* &quot;**brightest**&quot; rather than &quot;whitest,&quot; whatever that may mean. Maybe the Vanir are deities who are both more Elven and more Gigantic in nature while the Elves, especially the Svartálfar, are the familial link between the Æsir and the Dwarves.       &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hel** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Gylfaginning, Hel, or Hela, the gigantic goddess who houses and rules over the dead in the northern end of the universe, is described as half dark-blue (or blue-black) and half &quot;flesh-coloured.&quot; This is generally interpreted to mean that half of her body has decayed (or suffered hypothermia in the frigidity of her ice-cold realm?), so perhaps this doesn't count as something exotically different from the complexion of the Norsemen, as Snorri is here probably imagining the same kind of discolouration that would happen to the average mediaeval Scandinavian corpse upon death. I mention it mainly to indicate just one more instance of a Norse deity with a feature that is &quot;fancier than red hair.&quot; Speaking of which, by the way, one of the daughters of Ægir is named Blóðughadda, &quot;Bloody-Hair.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## ANCIENT GREECE ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Depending on which ancient Greek writer you consult, such as Herodotus, several if not most of the deities whom the Greeks worshipped had been imported into their country by Egyptians, Libyans, &quot;Ethiopians,&quot; Phoenicians, Syrians and Mesopotamians in general. The myths themselves bear this out. An example of this is the African versions of Zeus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of these versions is mentioned by Lycophron and John Tzetzes, who call him Zeus Aithiops [Aethiops], a word which has come to be interpreted in a few different ways. It could mean &quot;Glowing,&quot; &quot;Fiery-Eyed&quot; or &quot;Burnt-Faced.&quot; The latter two translations can both be interpreted as references to dark complexion, such as that of the inhabitants of South Sudan, whom the ancient Greeks called *Aithiopes*. &quot;Fiery-Eyed&quot; has sometimes been interpreted as a reference to the stark contrast between the dark skin of the South Sudanese and the whiteness of their eyes' sclerae. William Smith's *Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology* translates Zeus Aithiops as &quot;Black Zeus&quot; and says that he was worshipped as far afield from Africa as the island of Khios, in the middle of the Aegean Sea. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/tmIky.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/bRkd4.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7460" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1792" RevisionGUID="aa67c0ca-82bf-48f2-a310-de369e89016c" CreationDate="2016-07-05T18:34:23.693" UserId="2756" Text="I've been watching a lot of Supernatural, and I've been wondering. What is it with salt? They keep bringing up that one needs to salt and burn the bones. Also, salt is used to repel ghosts. This isn't the first time I've heard mentionings about salt being useful, but I'm not sure why. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7461" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1792" RevisionGUID="aa67c0ca-82bf-48f2-a310-de369e89016c" CreationDate="2016-07-05T18:34:23.693" UserId="2756" Text="Why is salt used to get rid of ghosts and keep out demons?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7462" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1792" RevisionGUID="aa67c0ca-82bf-48f2-a310-de369e89016c" CreationDate="2016-07-05T18:34:23.693" UserId="2756" Text="|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7463" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1793" RevisionGUID="55f994d2-7a8f-4b8c-aee7-4c14a654d62a" CreationDate="2016-07-06T14:36:23.557" UserId="2731" Text="Salt has had a strong significance in a lot of different religions for millennia. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I believe that salt used for the explicit purpose of repelling demons originates from Buddhism or Shintoism, where salt is used to purify/sanctify a places and ward off evil spirits.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think Supernatural draws from the Wiccan culture for its usage of salt though, &#xD;&#xA;as Wiccan use it [almost exactly the way it's used in the show](http://wiccanspells.info/protection-tips-and-tricks-for-wiccans/).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further reading:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/othermagicspells/fl/Salt-Folklore-and-Magic.htm&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt#Usage_in_religion&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7464" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1794" RevisionGUID="f5dc9408-cfa2-498a-bffa-872f92a3d3bc" CreationDate="2016-07-06T18:45:31.617" UserId="292" Text="Salt is a natural cleanser, and can be used to scour out pots, as toothpaste, to remove rust, etc. (See [this page][1] for more.) So it's not a big leap from there to supernatural cleansing.  &#xD;&#xA;As for salting and burning the bones, a parallel custom was burning a conquered city and [salting the ground][2], so nothing would grow there. The Romans supposedly did this with [Carthage][3] when they conquered it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.foodmatters.com/article/37-smart-uses-of-salt-for-non-toxic-cleaning-purposes&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salting_the_earth&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2698/did-ancient-conquerors-punish-their-enemies-by-sowing-captured-fields-with-salt" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7465" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1795" RevisionGUID="1ec34146-8b37-47e1-8664-5396f4579381" CreationDate="2016-07-06T19:34:59.040" UserId="2682" Text="Maybe he actually did.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hypothesis 1. The Dwarven Arts** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to *The Unmanly Man: Concepts of Sexual Defamation in Early Northern Society*, Preben Meulengracht Sørensen is convinced, for some reason, that Loki's milkmaid service &quot;must certainly be taken to mean that Loki served as mistress to giants or trolls,&quot; which he qualifies by adding that the &quot;sexuality [of giants and trolls] was considered gross and unbridled&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is, however, a different group associated with dwelling underground just as much if not more so than giants or trolls, and that is the dwarves, particularly those of Svartálfaheim (&quot;Black-Elf World/Home&quot;). This seems to be the realm to which, in Skáldskaparmál 35, Loki ventures with a mission to get a collective of artisans called &quot;Ívaldi's Sons&quot; to make new hair for Þórr's [Thor's] wife Sif. With no further explanation, this portion of the Eddas tells us that the artisans made the hair and, seemingly off the cuff, threw in two extra items: Skíðblaðnir, a magic ship which could be folded up and placed in one's pocket like a handkerchief, and which was gifted to the god Freyr; and the magic spear Gungnir, which eventually belonged to Óðinn [Odin].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In circumstances otherwise unexplained, Loki then made a life-and-death wager with a different (rival?) family of dwarf artisans, inducing them to make a few other magic gifts for his fellow deities. This second group of dwarves ended up making, among a few other items, Þórr's famous magic hammer Mjöllnir. In this instance the artisans have clear motivation for this work but it's always puzzled me that there is no explanation ever offered (as far as I'm aware) for why Ívaldi's Sons help Loki at all and go a couple of extra miles in the process, with no apparent word of gratitude towards them. Were they on the Æsir's retainer or something? For them to be so gracious about receiving nothing at all for their labour is completely out of character for dwarves (or for that matter just about every other major ethnic group) in this mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On a later occasion the giant king Þrym [Thrym] somehow managed to steal Mjöllnir from Þórr and then demanded to be given the hand of Freyr's twin, the beautiful goddess Freyja, in marriage. To trick him, Þórr and Loki were compelled to dress in drag in order to impersonate Freyja and her handmaiden respectively, by which ruse they were able to retrieve the magic hammer and slaughter Þrym and his entire family.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A standard part of Þórr's disguise in this instance had to be Freyja's famously bedazzling torc [a type of choker] called Brísingamen. According to *Sörla þáttr eða Heðins saga ok Högna*, Freyja once bought a golden necklace from a group of four dwarves who refused monetary payment. Instead they demanded that she lie with each of them for one night, which terms were accepted. *Sörla þáttr* does not say that this necklace is actually the same as Brísingamen nor does it say anything about the dwarves being a group of brothers called the Brísingar, but both these features are popular modern interpretations, as attested by Jimmy Joe's website [TimelessMyths](https://www.timelessmyths.com/norse/beings.html#Brisings) and Ingrid Halvorsen's website [Sunnyway](http://www.sunnyway.com/runes/gods.html#B), perhaps inspired by Roger Lancelyn Green's book *Myths of the Norsemen*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Skáldskaparmál offers no further detail regarding Ívaldi's Sons apart from saying that they are dwarves while at the same time suggesting that they are also Svartálfar, &quot;Black Elves.&quot; Again, perhaps taking a cue from Green, Joe numbers these &quot;sons&quot; as four. The reason that Green might do so is to identify the four &quot;Brísingar&quot; with Ívaldi's Sons, whom he calls &quot;Black Dwarfs&quot; in a bid to explain why these dwarves have their operations base in Elf-World.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To add my own speculations to those of Sørensen, Green, Joe and Halvorsen, my suggestion here would be that the mission into Giantland undertaken by Þórr and Loki may not have been the first time that Loki disguised himself as a woman associated with Freyja in order to acquire an item for the gods. Earlier in the same story it is Loki who discovers that Þrym has stolen Mjöllnir. He does this by doing some reconnoitering in the form of a falcon. He is able to take this form because of a magic cloak of feathers owned by Freyja, which garment Loki borrows for this purpose. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It stands to reason that there's a missing story here regarding how Ívaldi's Sons came to owe Loki a favour. Perchance this time he didn't borrow clothing from Freyja or pretend to be her servant but actually borrowed her own form and performed a similar service towards the artisans in Svartálfaheim that Freyja would perhaps earlier have done in relation to the four dwarves who made her golden neck-piece, if *Sörla þáttr* is to be believed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On other hand, these dwarves might be Loki's sons with Ívaldi as the father. Throughout the Eddas, [elves and Æsir are cited in close association with each other](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/1745/2682) [see under &quot;Norsemen: The Svartálfar&quot; in link]. The connection between the Elves and these dwarves could thus be explained on account of their mother being an Ás [masculine singular of *Æsir*], the same Ás who gave birth, in the form of a mare, to Óðinn's magic horse Sleipnir. It would flow well in hand with Loki's irony and wackiness that he is a giant who becomes the parent of a collective of dwarves who create weaponry for the giants' natural enemy the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hypothesis 2. The Unweeping Giantess** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Speaking of Loki's offspring, he has a famous daughter, a giant goddess named Hel, or Hela, to whom Óðinn, in the Prose Edda, inexplicably gives authority and control over anyone who does not die in battle. These dead are sent to the land of perpetual cold, ice, snow and darkness at the northern end of the universe, over which realm Hel has control. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Óðinn soon comes to regret the decision because his beautiful son Balder, the universe's most favourite person, is not long afterwards killed through Loki's treachery, and he naturally goes to Hel. The Æsir must then petition Hel to release Balder (apparently to resurrect) if they wish to see him before they all die at the end of the world. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hel is willing to break the rules and allow this on condition that every single person and object in the universe, dead or alive, weeps for the slain young Ás. If even one thing fails to do so, Balder will only be restored after the Ragnarök, as prophecy says. With that, accoring to the Gylfaginning, &quot;the Æsir sent over all the world messengers to beg for Balder to be wept out of Hel; and all people did this, and living things, and the earth, and stones, and trees, and all metals&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Presumably even all the giants of Giantland participated as did Hel herself. However, in a certain cave somewhere there sat one giantess, poignantly named Þökk [Thokk, &quot;Thanks&quot;], and she said that she had no love for Balder, calling him &quot;the churl's son&quot; and scoffing that Hel can keep him. This giantess, says the Gylfaginning, is suspected to have been Loki in disguise, which would make sense since Loki is the only person who hated Balder. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Immediately following this account is the story of Loki hiding in a mountain waterfall in the form of a salmon before being captured and subjected to some innovative and permanent torture methods by his fellow deities. After that is a description of the Ragnarök. The flytings in *Lokasenna* take place sometime after the messengers' encounter with Þökk and immediately before Loki's escape to the waterfall shortly prior to his final binding. If Thökk really is a cypher for Loki, perhaps [s]he was under such an incredible amount of pressure, as the only being in the entire universe refusing to facilitate the restoration of the world's most [well-]wanted man, that [s]he may well have needed to go literally underground. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And, if Loki's previous (mis)adventures have shown, there are certain things he is quite able (if not also quite willing) to do in a bind. Perhaps at the opening of *Lokasenna* eight years have elapsed since the first appearance of Thökk, who has been in hiding in an underground cave in the company of giants or some other creatures, milking their cattle. And doing other things that Loki might do, especially to keep up a disguise. This would require that Óðinn and Njörð already know somehow about Thökk-Loki's escapade. With Óðinn's two surveillance ravens, however, this would not be an especially difficult task.             " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7466" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1795" RevisionGUID="c1e9dd14-5407-4c0e-ad80-4e45be4bfb71" CreationDate="2016-07-06T22:05:28.623" UserId="2682" Comment="tweaked some of the grammar" Text="Maybe he actually did.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hypothesis 1. The Dwarven Arts** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to *The Unmanly Man: Concepts of Sexual Defamation in Early Northern Society*, Preben Meulengracht Sørensen is convinced, for some reason, that Loki's milkmaid service &quot;must certainly be taken to mean that Loki served as mistress to giants or trolls,&quot; which he qualifies by adding that the &quot;sexuality [of giants and trolls] was considered gross and unbridled&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is, however, a different group associated with dwelling underground just as much if not more so than giants or trolls, and that is the dwarves, particularly those of Svartálfaheim (&quot;Black-Elf World/Home&quot;). This seems to be the realm to which, in Skáldskaparmál 35, Loki ventures with a mission to get a collective of artisans called &quot;Ívaldi's Sons&quot; to make new hair for Þórr's [Thor's] wife Sif. With no further explanation, this portion of the Eddas tells us that the artisans made the hair and, seemingly off the cuff, threw in two extra items: Skíðblaðnir, a magic ship which could be folded up and placed in one's pocket like a handkerchief, and which was gifted to the god Freyr; and the magic spear Gungnir, which eventually belonged to Óðinn [Odin].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In circumstances otherwise unexplained, Loki then made a life-and-death wager with a different (rival?) family of dwarf artisans, inducing them to make a few other magic gifts for his fellow deities. This second group of dwarves ended up making, among a few other items, Þórr's famous magic hammer Mjöllnir. In this instance the artisans have clear motivation for this work but it's always puzzled me that there is no explanation ever offered (as far as I'm aware) for why Ívaldi's Sons help Loki at all and go a couple of extra miles in the process, with no apparent word of gratitude towards them. Were they on the Æsir's retainer or something? For them to be so gracious about receiving nothing at all for their labour is completely out of character for dwarves (or for that matter just about every other major ethnic group) in this mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On a later occasion the giant king Þrym [Thrym] somehow managed to steal Mjöllnir from Þórr and then demanded to be given the hand of Freyr's twin, the beautiful goddess Freyja, in marriage. To trick him, Þórr and Loki were compelled to dress in drag in order to impersonate Freyja and her handmaiden respectively, by which ruse they were able to retrieve the magic hammer and slaughter Þrym and his entire family.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A standard part of Þórr's disguise in this instance had to be Freyja's famously bedazzling torc [a type of choker] called Brísingamen. According to *Sörla þáttr eða Heðins saga ok Högna*, Freyja once bought a golden necklace from a group of four dwarves who refused monetary payment. Instead they demanded that she lie with each of them for one night, which terms were accepted. *Sörla þáttr* does not say that this necklace is actually the same as Brísingamen nor does it say anything about the dwarves being a group of brothers called the Brísingar, but both these features are popular modern interpretations, as attested by Jimmy Joe's website [TimelessMyths](https://www.timelessmyths.com/norse/beings.html#Brisings) and Ingrid Halvorsen's website [Sunnyway](http://www.sunnyway.com/runes/gods.html#B), perhaps inspired by Roger Lancelyn Green's book *Myths of the Norsemen*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Skáldskaparmál offers no further detail regarding Ívaldi's Sons apart from saying that they are dwarves while at the same time suggesting that they are also Svartálfar, &quot;Black Elves.&quot; Again, perhaps taking a cue from Green, Joe numbers these &quot;sons&quot; as four. The reason that Green might do so is to identify the four &quot;Brísingar&quot; with Ívaldi's Sons, whom he calls &quot;Black Dwarfs&quot; in a bid to explain why these dwarves have their operations base in Elf-World.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To add my own speculations to those of Sørensen, Green, Joe and Halvorsen, my suggestion here would be that the mission into Giantland undertaken by Þórr and Loki may not have been the first time that Loki disguised himself as a woman associated with Freyja in order to acquire an item for the gods. Earlier in the same story it is Loki who discovers that Þrym has stolen Mjöllnir. He does this by reconnoitering in the form of a falcon. He is able to take this form because of a magic cloak of feathers owned by Freyja, which garment Loki borrows for this purpose. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It stands to reason that there's a missing story here regarding how Ívaldi's Sons came to owe Loki a favour. Perchance this time he didn't borrow clothing from Freyja or pretend to be her servant but actually borrowed her own form and performed a similar service towards the artisans in Svartálfaheim that Freyja would perhaps earlier have done in relation to the four dwarves who made her golden neck-piece, if *Sörla þáttr* is to be believed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On other hand, these dwarves might be Loki's sons with Ívaldi as the father. Throughout the Eddas, [elves and Æsir are cited in close association with each other](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/1745/2682) [see under &quot;Norsemen: The Svartálfar&quot; in link]. The connection between the Elves and these dwarves could thus be explained on account of their mother being an Ás [masculine singular of *Æsir*], the same Ás who gave birth, in the form of a mare, to Óðinn's magic horse Sleipnir. It would flow well in hand with Loki's irony and wackiness that he is a giant who becomes the parent of a collective of dwarves who create weaponry for the giants' natural enemy the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hypothesis 2. The Unweeping Giantess** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Speaking of Loki's offspring, he has a famous daughter, a giant goddess named Hel, or Hela, to whom Óðinn, in the Prose Edda, inexplicably gives authority and control over anyone who does not die in battle. These dead are sent to the land of perpetual cold, ice, snow and darkness at the northern end of the universe, over which realm Hel has control. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Óðinn soon comes to regret the decision because his beautiful son Balder, the universe's most favourite person, is not long afterwards killed through Loki's treachery, and he naturally goes to Hel. The Æsir must then petition Hel to release Balder (apparently to resurrect) if they wish to see him before they all die at the end of the world. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hel is willing to break the rules and allow this on condition that every single person and object in the universe, dead or alive, weeps for the slain young Ás. If even one thing fails to do so, Balder will only be restored after the Ragnarök, as prophecy says. With that, accoring to the Gylfaginning, &quot;the Æsir sent over all the world messengers to beg for Balder to be wept out of Hel; and all people did this, and living things, and the earth, and stones, and trees, and all metals&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Presumably even all the giants of Giantland participated as did Hel herself. However, in a certain cave somewhere there sat one giantess, poignantly named Þökk [Thokk, &quot;Thanks&quot;], and she said that she had no love for Balder, calling him &quot;the churl's son&quot; and scoffing that Hel can keep him. This giantess, says the Gylfaginning, is suspected to have been Loki in disguise, which would make sense since Loki is the only person who hated Balder. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Immediately following this account is the story of Loki hiding in a mountain waterfall in the form of a salmon before being captured and subjected to some innovative and permanent torture methods by his fellow deities. After that is a description of the Ragnarök. The flytings in *Lokasenna* take place sometime after the messengers' encounter with Þökk and immediately before Loki's escape to the waterfall shortly prior to his final binding. If Thökk really is a cypher for Loki, perhaps [s]he was under such an incredible amount of pressure, as the only being in the entire universe refusing to facilitate the restoration of the world's most [well-]wanted man, that [s]he may indeed have needed to go literally underground. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And, if Loki's previous (mis)adventures have shown, there are certain things he is quite able (if not also quite willing) to do in a bind. Perhaps at the opening of *Lokasenna* eight years have elapsed since the first appearance of Thökk, who has been in hiding in an underground cave in the company of giants or some other creatures, milking their cattle. And doing other things that Loki might do, especially to keep up a disguise. This would require that Óðinn and Njörð already know somehow about Thökk-Loki's escapade. With Óðinn's two surveillance ravens, however, this would not be an especially difficult task.             " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7470" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1795" RevisionGUID="4c18ba7a-a38a-42e7-a38f-818e9d8f1c2e" CreationDate="2016-07-07T17:48:00.970" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="Maybe he actually did.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hypothesis 1. The Dwarven Arts** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to *The Unmanly Man: Concepts of Sexual Defamation in Early Northern Society*, Preben Meulengracht Sørensen is convinced, for some reason, that Loki's milkmaid service &quot;must certainly be taken to mean that Loki served as mistress to giants or trolls,&quot; which he qualifies by adding that the &quot;sexuality [of giants and trolls] was considered gross and unbridled&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is, however, a different group associated with dwelling underground just as much if not more so than giants or trolls, and that is the dwarves, particularly those of Svartálfaheim (&quot;Black-Elf World/Home&quot;). This seems to be the realm to which, in Skáldskaparmál 35, Loki ventures with a mission to get a collective of artisans called &quot;Ívaldi's Sons&quot; to make new hair for Þórr's [Thor's] wife Sif. With no further explanation, this portion of the Eddas tells us that the artisans made the hair and, seemingly off the cuff, threw in two extra items: Skíðblaðnir, a magic ship which could be folded up and placed in one's pocket like a handkerchief, and which was gifted to the god Freyr; and the magic spear Gungnir, which eventually belonged to Óðinn [Odin].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In circumstances otherwise unexplained, Loki then made a life-and-death wager with a different (rival?) family of dwarf artisans, inducing them to make a few other magic gifts for his fellow deities. This second group of dwarves ended up making, among a few other items, Þórr's famous magic hammer Mjöllnir. In this instance the artisans have clear motivation for this work but it's always puzzled me that there is no explanation ever offered (as far as I'm aware) for why Ívaldi's Sons help Loki at all and go a couple of extra miles in the process, with no apparent word of gratitude towards them. Were they on the Æsir's retainer or something? For them to be so gracious about receiving nothing at all for their labour is completely out of character for dwarves (or for that matter just about every other major ethnic group) in this mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On a later occasion the giant king Þrym [Thrym] somehow managed to steal Mjöllnir from Þórr and then demanded to be given the hand of Freyr's twin, the beautiful goddess Freyja, in marriage. To trick him, Þórr and Loki were compelled to dress in drag in order to impersonate Freyja and her handmaiden respectively, by which ruse they were able to retrieve the magic hammer and slaughter Þrym and his entire family.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A standard part of Þórr's disguise in this instance had to be Freyja's famously bedazzling torc [a type of choker] called Brísingamen. According to *Sörla þáttr eða Heðins saga ok Högna*, Freyja once bought a golden necklace from a group of four dwarves who refused monetary payment. Instead they demanded that she lie with each of them for one night, which terms were accepted. *Sörla þáttr* does not say that this necklace is actually the same as Brísingamen nor does it say anything about the dwarves being a group of brothers called the Brísingar, but both these features are popular modern interpretations, as attested by Jimmy Joe's website [TimelessMyths](https://www.timelessmyths.com/norse/beings.html#Brisings) and Ingrid Halvorsen's website [Sunnyway](http://www.sunnyway.com/runes/gods.html#B), perhaps inspired by Roger Lancelyn Green's book *Myths of the Norsemen*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Skáldskaparmál offers no further detail regarding Ívaldi's Sons apart from saying that they are dwarves while at the same time suggesting that they are also Svartálfar, &quot;Black Elves.&quot; Again, perhaps taking a cue from Green, Joe numbers these &quot;sons&quot; as four. The reason that Green might do so is to identify the four &quot;Brísingar&quot; with Ívaldi's Sons, whom he calls &quot;Black Dwarfs&quot; in a bid to explain why these dwarves have their operations base in Elf-World.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To add my own speculations to those of Sørensen, Green, Joe and Halvorsen, my suggestion here would be that the mission into Giantland undertaken by Þórr and Loki may not have been the first time that Loki disguised himself as a woman associated with Freyja in order to acquire an item for the gods. Earlier in the same story it is Loki who discovers that Þrym has stolen Mjöllnir. He does this by reconnoitering in the form of a falcon. He is able to take this form because of a magic cloak of feathers owned by Freyja, which garment Loki borrows for this purpose. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It stands to reason that there's a missing story here regarding how Ívaldi's Sons came to owe Loki a favour. Perchance this time he didn't borrow clothing from Freyja or pretend to be her servant but actually borrowed her own form and performed a similar service towards the artisans in Svartálfaheim that Freyja would perhaps earlier have done in relation to the four dwarves who made her golden neck-piece, if *Sörla þáttr* is to be believed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On other hand, these dwarves might be Loki's sons with Ívaldi as the father. Throughout the Eddas, [elves and Æsir are cited in close association with each other](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/1745/2682) [see under &quot;Norsemen: The Svartálfar&quot; in link]. The connection between the Elves and these dwarves could thus be explained on account of their mother being an Ás [masculine singular of *Æsir*], the same Ás who gave birth, in the form of a mare, to Óðinn's magic horse Sleipnir. It would flow well in hand with Loki's irony and wackiness that he is a giant who becomes the parent of a collective of dwarves who create weaponry for the giants' natural enemy the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hypothesis 2. The Unweeping Giantess** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Speaking of Loki's offspring, he has a famous daughter, a giant goddess named Hel, or Hela, to whom Óðinn, in the Prose Edda, inexplicably gives apparently absolute authority over anyone who does not die in battle. These dead are sent to the land of perpetual cold, ice, snow and darkness at the northern end of the universe, over which realm Hel has control. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Óðinn soon comes to regret the decision because his beautiful son Balder, the universe's most favourite person, is not long afterwards killed through Loki's treachery, and he naturally goes to Hel. The Æsir must then petition Hel to release Balder (apparently to resurrect) if they wish to see him before they all die at the end of the world. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hel is willing to break the rules and allow this on condition that every single person and object in the universe, dead or alive, weeps for the slain young Ás. If even one thing fails to do so, Balder will only be restored after the Ragnarök, as prophecy says. With that, accoring to the Gylfaginning, &quot;the Æsir sent over all the world messengers to beg for Balder to be wept out of Hel; and all people did this, and living things, and the earth, and stones, and trees, and all metals&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Presumably even all the giants of Giantland participated as did Hel herself. However, in a certain cave somewhere there sat one giantess, poignantly named Þökk [Thokk, &quot;Thanks&quot;], and she said that she had no love for Balder, calling him &quot;the churl's son&quot; and scoffing that Hel can keep him. This giantess, says the Gylfaginning, is suspected to have been Loki in disguise, which would make sense since Loki is the only person who hated Balder. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Immediately following this account is the story of Loki hiding in a mountain waterfall in the form of a salmon before being captured and subjected to some innovative and permanent torture methods by his fellow deities. After that is a description of the Ragnarök. The flytings in *Lokasenna* take place sometime after the messengers' encounter with Þökk and immediately before Loki's escape to the waterfall shortly prior to his final binding. If Thökk really is a cypher for Loki, perhaps [s]he was under such an incredible amount of pressure, as the only being in the entire universe refusing to facilitate the restoration of the world's most [well-]wanted man, that [s]he may indeed have needed to go literally underground. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And, as Loki's previous (mis)adventures have shown, there are certain things he is quite able (if not also quite willing) to do in a bind. Perhaps at the opening of *Lokasenna* eight years have elapsed since the first appearance of Thökk, who has been in hiding in an underground cave in the company of giants or some other creatures, milking their cattle. And doing other things that Loki might do, especially to keep up a disguise. This would require that Óðinn and Njörð already know somehow about Thökk-Loki's escapade. With Óðinn's two surveillance ravens, however, this would not be an especially difficult task.             " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7471" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="273" RevisionGUID="21e52ce2-b065-4f79-8069-2333f457fe2b" CreationDate="2016-07-07T18:14:07.153" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved fomatting." Text="This seems to be the answer as 12 is honored mathematically and religiously. In terms of math, it seems to be involved in lots of combinations as shown:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The numbers 1,2 and 3 are all prime numbers and are symbolic of creation through the holy trinity. The number 12 would be reduced in numerology as 1+2=3, which means that the number 12 is also symbolic of the trinity. According to the rules of music vibration, we know that octaves of the fundamental vibration are created through multiplication or division from the number two. Two times twelve is 24 and half of 12 is 6. It is interesting to note that all prime numbers greater than 3 (the original trinity of prime numbers) are properties of the number six. The formula for creating prime numbers is 6n + 1where n is any number and + 1 is symbolic of unity or the original cause. For example: 6*2 = 12 and 12 – 1 is 11 and 12 + 1 is 13 and 11 and 13 are prime numbers. 6 *3 is 18 and 18 – 1 is 17 and 18 + 1 is 19 and both 17 and 19 are prime numbers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Religiously, it is known as the symbolic of the creation of the universe as it represents the division or fractionating of unity (God) into twelve individual distinct vibrations or tones. Of course, there is more to the number 12 in the religious way, but there is simply too much.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source: [Sacred Science][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacredscience.com/ferrera/numbertwelve.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7472" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="273" RevisionGUID="21e52ce2-b065-4f79-8069-2333f457fe2b" CreationDate="2016-07-07T18:14:07.153" Comment="Proposed by 1241 approved by 967, 98 edit id of 335" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7475" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1797" RevisionGUID="20245a68-a08e-4a63-9df1-a7d235a875c9" CreationDate="2016-07-08T03:33:30.813" UserId="1241" Text="Why is salt associated with repelling of demons? This seems like an almost impossible question to answer. The origins are very obscure. Firstly, what does salt symbolize?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Judeo-Christian traditions considered salt a purifier, and the symbol of the eternal nature of God’s covenant with Israel. There are more than 30 references to salt in the Old and New Testaments of the Bible. - [Salt in the Bible and in folklore][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Salt was added as a seasoning to the composition of Holy Incense of [Exodus 30: 35.][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;35 And thou shalt make of it incense, a perfume after the art of the perfumer, seasoned with salt, pure and holy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Salt is still used in food preservation and in pharmacology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;It is an essential element in the diet of not only humans but of animals, and even of many plants. It is one of the most effective and most widely used of all food preservatives. Its industrial and other uses are almost without number.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Salt was in general use long before the beginning of recorded history, and dating back to around 2700 B.C. the earliest known treatise on pharmacology was published in China. - [History Of Salt][3] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How salt became associated with expelling demons  is an open question, but these three elements at least give us a glimpse into a possible answer. Salt purifies, heals and preserves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**History of Salt in Religion**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Salt has long held an important place in religion and culture. Greek worshippers consecrated salt in their rituals. Jewish Temple offerings included salt; on the Sabbath, people of the Jewish faith still dip their bread in salt as a remembrance of those sacrifices. In the Old Testament, Lot’s wife was turned into a pillar of salt. Author Sallie Tisdale notes that salt is as free as the water suspending it when it’s dissolved, and as immutable as stone when it’s dry.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Covenants in both the Old and New Testaments were often sealed with salt: the origin of the word “salvation.” In the Catholic Church, salt is or has been used in a variety of purification rituals. In fact, until Vatican II, a small taste of salt was placed on a baby’s lip at his or her baptism. Jesus called his disciples “the Salt of the Earth.” In Leonardo DaVinci’s famous painting, “The Last Supper,” Judas has just spilled a bowl of salt, which is known as a portent of evil and bad luck. To this day, the tradition endures that when people spill salt, they should throw a pinch over their left shoulders to ward off any devils that may be lurking behind.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;In Buddhist tradition, salt repels evil spirits, which is why it is customary to throw salt over your shoulder before entering your house after a funeral: it scares off any evil spirits that may be clinging to your back.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Shinto religion also uses salt to purify an area. Before sumo wrestlers enter the ring for a match—which is actually an elaborate Shinto rite—a handful of salt is thrown into the center to drive off malevolent spirits. - [History Of Salt][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Salt is still used in exorcisms in various Christian Churches:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Holy water has been employed in the religious ceremonies of many peoples as a means of purifying both persons and things, and also to keep away demons. Sprinkling and washing with it were important features of the Greek ritual.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;The holy water of the Roman Catholic Church is prepared by exorcising and blessing salt and water separately, after which the salt is dissolved in the water and a benediction pronounced upon the mixture. In the Hawaiian ritual, sea-water was sometimes preferred. - [SALT AS A MAGICAL SUBSTANCE][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.wisechoicemarket.com/salty-tales/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0230.htm#22&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.seasalt.com/salt-101/history-of-salt/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/etc/mhs/mhs39.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7476" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1798" RevisionGUID="c8eb83c9-92c0-4acf-ba57-b702ad61b291" CreationDate="2016-07-08T09:05:59.690" UserId="2762" Text="My first post here, so I hope this is appropriate:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Its worth noting that when first introduced by homer, Cerberus was not referred to as multi headed, or even as a dog. Some of the early authors don't make reference to many heads.&#xD;&#xA;Aristophanes evens says in the frogs:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;O, villain, villain, arrant vilest villain! &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Who seized our Cerberus &lt;b&gt; by the throat &lt;/b&gt;, and fled, &#xD;&#xA;&gt;And ran, and rushed, and bolted, haling of &#xD;&#xA;&gt;The dog, my charge! &quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But this may be dependant upon the translation. Cerberos and has variously been 50-headed (Hesiod, Theogony), had a snake tail (Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca) or even had a mane of snakes: &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Here the savage Stygian dog [Kerberos (Cerberus)] frightens the shades; tossing back and forth his triple heads, with huge bayings he guards the realm. Around his head, foul with corruption, serpents lap, his shaggy man bristles with vipers, and in his twisted tail a long snake hisses.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Seneca -  Hercules Furens&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Scylla has a similar mutability - sometimes having many heads, sometimes human down to the privates (Virgil - Aeneid) and having snake bits or wolverine/dog parts (or both!) below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anyway, back to the question:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While there is no explicit reference for or against, I believe that it is reasonable to assume that multi-headed creatures in Greek mythology had only one mind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aside from there being no understanding of the seat of consciousness being in the brain, as you point out, i'd add the following:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. The monsters are always referred to in the singular. There are too many references to list, but in every translation I've seen it's always referred to as a single being unless talking explicitly about the heads (or other multiple appendage)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. The appendages always seem to act in concert, with one purpose. Virgil gives us a good example of this, both from the Aeneid&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Sibyl, seeing the snakes bristling upon his neck now, threw him for bait a cake for honey and wheat infused with sedative drugs. The creature, crazy with hunger, opened its three mouths, gobbled the bait&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and Georgics:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Cerberus stood agape and his triple jaws forgot to bark.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. But the strongest point I think is referring to the Centimanes, one of whom speaks in Theogony:&#xD;&#xA;http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D654&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;And blameless Cottus answered him again: “ [655] Divine one, you speak that which we know well: no, even of ourselves we know that your wisdom and understanding is exceeding, and that you became a defender of the deathless ones from chill doom. And through your devising we have come back again from the murky gloom and from our merciless bonds, enjoying what we looked not for, O lord, son of Cronos. And so now with fixed purpose and deliberate counsel we will aid your power in dreadful strife and will fight against the Titans in hard battle.” So he said: and the gods, givers of good things, applauded when they heard his word&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Its worth noting here that by talking in the multiple ('we','our') I believe he is referring to himself and his brothers, also with him, not solely about himself, but because he speaks with one voice and one purpose implies one mind.&#xD;&#xA;Have you ever tried to get 50 people to agree on anything?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7477" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1798" RevisionGUID="d2e5f5a3-da14-4f75-b98e-3f189bcf1e0c" CreationDate="2016-07-08T12:55:20.747" UserId="967" Comment="deleted 22 characters in body" Text="Its worth noting that when first introduced by homer, Cerberus was not referred to as multi headed, or even as a dog. Some of the early authors don't make reference to many heads.&#xD;&#xA;Aristophanes evens says in the frogs:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;O, villain, villain, arrant vilest villain! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Who seized our Cerberus &lt;b&gt; by the throat &lt;/b&gt;, and fled, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;And ran, and rushed, and bolted, haling of &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The dog, my charge! &quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But this may be dependant upon the translation. Cerberos and has variously been 50-headed (Hesiod, Theogony), had a snake tail (Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca) or even had a mane of snakes: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Here the savage Stygian dog [Kerberos (Cerberus)] frightens the shades; tossing back and forth his triple heads, with huge bayings he guards the realm. Around his head, foul with corruption, serpents lap, his shaggy man bristles with vipers, and in his twisted tail a long snake hisses.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Seneca -  Hercules Furens&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Scylla has a similar mutability - sometimes having many heads, sometimes human down to the privates (Virgil - Aeneid) and having snake bits or wolverine/dog parts (or both!) below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anyway, back to the question:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While there is no explicit reference for or against, I believe that it is reasonable to assume that multi-headed creatures in Greek mythology had only one mind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aside from there being no understanding of the seat of consciousness being in the brain, as you point out, i'd add the following:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. The monsters are always referred to in the singular. There are too many references to list, but in every translation I've seen it's always referred to as a single being unless talking explicitly about the heads (or other multiple appendage)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. The appendages always seem to act in concert, with one purpose. Virgil gives us a good example of this, both from the Aeneid&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Sibyl, seeing the snakes bristling upon his neck now, threw him for bait a cake for honey and wheat infused with sedative drugs. The creature, crazy with hunger, opened its three mouths, gobbled the bait&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and Georgics:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Cerberus stood agape and his triple jaws forgot to bark.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. But the strongest point I think is referring to the Centimanes, one of whom speaks in [Theogony][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;And blameless Cottus answered him again: “ [655] Divine one, you speak that which we know well: no, even of ourselves we know that your wisdom and understanding is exceeding, and that you became a defender of the deathless ones from chill doom. And through your devising we have come back again from the murky gloom and from our merciless bonds, enjoying what we looked not for, O lord, son of Cronos. And so now with fixed purpose and deliberate counsel we will aid your power in dreadful strife and will fight against the Titans in hard battle.” So he said: and the gods, givers of good things, applauded when they heard his word&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Its worth noting here that by talking in the multiple ('we','our') I believe he is referring to himself and his brothers, also with him, not solely about himself, but because he speaks with one voice and one purpose implies one mind.&#xD;&#xA;Have you ever tried to get 50 people to agree on anything?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D654" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7478" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1793" RevisionGUID="2e8b1249-d59f-4999-8036-724aafb75b4d" CreationDate="2016-07-08T16:02:06.360" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved fomatting." Text="Salt has had a strong significance in a lot of different religions for millennia. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I believe that salt used for the explicit purpose of repelling demons originates from Buddhism or Shintoism, where salt is used to purify/sanctify a places and ward off evil spirits.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think Supernatural draws from the Wiccan culture for its usage of salt though, &#xD;&#xA;as Wiccan use it [almost exactly the way it's used in the show](http://wiccanspells.info/protection-tips-and-tricks-for-wiccans/).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further reading:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Salt Folklore and Magic][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Salt (Wikipedia)][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/othermagicspells/fl/Salt-Folklore-and-Magic.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt#Usage_in_religion" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7479" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1793" RevisionGUID="2e8b1249-d59f-4999-8036-724aafb75b4d" CreationDate="2016-07-08T16:02:06.360" Comment="Proposed by 1241 approved by 967, 42 edit id of 334" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7480" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="906" RevisionGUID="44e97bd1-1bfd-4975-81ab-16835bd1d75b" CreationDate="2016-07-08T16:02:20.063" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved fomatting." Text="Nereus was a fish-tailed deity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anything needed to be said about Nereus is nicely expressed in this [link][1], but I'll sum up some things. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That Nereus is a sea-god of some antiquity is noted by the familiarity in which he appears in Hesiod, though that particular name might be later. In Homer, he is named instead something like &quot;The Old Man of the Sea.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He wasn't always depicted half-fish, though. The earliest depiction we have of him does (a cup made ca. 520), but contemporary pottery (late 500s/early 400s) also portrays him human-like. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Romero Recio and B. Kowalzig connect him to archaic maritime divinities that sprang up following overseas expansion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Nereus.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7481" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="906" RevisionGUID="44e97bd1-1bfd-4975-81ab-16835bd1d75b" CreationDate="2016-07-08T16:02:20.063" Comment="Proposed by 1241 approved by 967, 42 edit id of 333" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7482" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1799" RevisionGUID="f44f6f9b-f9dc-4d3b-99c8-77745ababa41" CreationDate="2016-07-08T21:24:54.980" UserId="967" Text="TLDR Did Senet have any mythological origin? If so, what?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For this [answer][4] that Fey Ray gives&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[![enter image description here][1]][1][![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;***I'M GONNA SAY SENET***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; The games that kids played included a game like checkers as well as Senet and their game pieces were made of small stones and knucklebones (which were really sheep ankle bones). They played a game something like ‘jacks’ and dice with these various game pieces. Kids also had toys to play with including clay rattles that were shaped like animals or people. The wealthy families had toys for their kids made out of wood. These included wooden toys that had moving parts. One might be a hippopotamus that had jaws that would close and open. The higher end dolls were made up of cloth and they were stuffed using papyrus reeds.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Ancient Egyptian Games][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He describes Senet, a game like checkers... and I was wondering if there were any myths to describe it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/veXD0.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/BcUVI.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.historyforkids.net/ancient-egyptian-games.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/1748/967" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7483" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1799" RevisionGUID="f44f6f9b-f9dc-4d3b-99c8-77745ababa41" CreationDate="2016-07-08T21:24:54.980" UserId="967" Text="Where did Senet mythologically come from?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7484" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1799" RevisionGUID="f44f6f9b-f9dc-4d3b-99c8-77745ababa41" CreationDate="2016-07-08T21:24:54.980" UserId="967" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7485" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1800" RevisionGUID="2080b9a8-f80a-4ac6-89a6-0a84fcbfb2a3" CreationDate="2016-07-09T01:01:20.600" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Tawaret is arguably one of the most popular goddesses of the Egyptian pantheon.Although much about her consorts is known,nothing is said about the Hippo Goddess' parentage and I would like to find out about it&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7486" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1800" RevisionGUID="2080b9a8-f80a-4ac6-89a6-0a84fcbfb2a3" CreationDate="2016-07-09T01:01:20.600" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Who are the parents of Tawaret?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7487" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1800" RevisionGUID="2080b9a8-f80a-4ac6-89a6-0a84fcbfb2a3" CreationDate="2016-07-09T01:01:20.600" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="|gods|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7488" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1801" RevisionGUID="4e1df6b1-979a-4e1f-b184-646adff75321" CreationDate="2016-07-09T01:14:08.417" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Japanese Emperors are said to be direct descendants of the Sun-goddess Amaterasu. As far as I know, Ameratsu married the Moon-god,her brother,but later on,she left him.But,they did not have any children.In that case,how did Ameratsu become the ancestor of the Japanese Emperors?From which offspring of the Sun-goddess did they descend from?Who did Ameratsu have this &quot;ancestor of the Japanese Emperors&quot; with?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7489" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1801" RevisionGUID="4e1df6b1-979a-4e1f-b184-646adff75321" CreationDate="2016-07-09T01:14:08.417" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="How are Japanese emperors related to Ameratsu?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7490" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1801" RevisionGUID="4e1df6b1-979a-4e1f-b184-646adff75321" CreationDate="2016-07-09T01:14:08.417" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="|gods|japanese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7495" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1805" RevisionGUID="644394a1-a46e-4efe-bdc0-e4e1c9bf7e17" CreationDate="2016-07-09T15:29:35.933" UserId="1241" Text="What are the earliest known origins of Sasquatches in Native American culture of North or South America?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Almost everybody has heard about these mysterious creatures known as [Sasquatches or Bigfoot][1], but can anyone tell me the earliest know legend (documented or otherwise) pertaining to this subject in Native American folklore?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Life Size Image of a Bigfoot][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Life size Bigfoot Statue!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigfoot&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/QT8gb.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7496" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1805" RevisionGUID="644394a1-a46e-4efe-bdc0-e4e1c9bf7e17" CreationDate="2016-07-09T15:29:35.933" UserId="1241" Text="What are the earliest known origins of Sasquatches in Native American culture in the Americas?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7497" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1805" RevisionGUID="644394a1-a46e-4efe-bdc0-e4e1c9bf7e17" CreationDate="2016-07-09T15:29:35.933" UserId="1241" Text="|folklore|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7498" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1530" RevisionGUID="26f0cbd2-7c4c-4190-808c-db7273857981" CreationDate="2016-07-09T17:24:26.757" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved fomatting." Text="In most schools of &quot;Western Ritual Magic,&quot; some of which seems to have Judaic roots, Michael is invoked in the South as Archangel of Fire &amp; Gabriel in the West as Archangel of Water.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't know the original source of this symbolism, but it is widespread. An example is the famous &quot;Banishing Ritual of the Lesser Pentagram.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sorry if this seems off topic for Judaism, but it may be of interest. Here is an example: [The Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; [1]: http://www.kheper.net/topics/Hermeticism/LBR.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7499" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1530" RevisionGUID="26f0cbd2-7c4c-4190-808c-db7273857981" CreationDate="2016-07-09T17:24:26.757" Comment="Proposed by 1241 approved by 967, 62 edit id of 337" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7503" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="207" RevisionGUID="2233bd29-6434-4b52-8dd4-ccff8bc8f71d" CreationDate="2016-07-10T01:56:02.633" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved fomatting." Text="I'm drawing my information for this answer from my reading of the doctoral dissertation of Amira El-Zein, titled &quot;The Evolution of the Concept of the Jinn from Pre-Islam to Islam&quot;.  I have attempted to summarize *extremely briefly* a few salient bits, particularly from pages 65-98.  However, as it turns out, this topic is actually fairly complex, so giving it a read would be recommended: [The Evolution of the Concept of the Jinn from Pre-Islam to Islam.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jinn is a classification of a number of different types of supernatural being.  They may be either good or bad, and there is no clear demarcation between types of jinn as either strictly good or strictly evil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The could appear as pure spiritual beings, as stand ins for angels or demons, as indicated by Ibn Manẓūr, in &quot;Lisān al-ʿArab&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The people of the Jahiliyyah called angels-peace be upon them-jinn because they were invisible from sight&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They could also be tangible creatures, particularly with animal-like characteristics, as stated by &quot;The Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...were not pure spirits, for they were often represented as hairy and often as having the form of an ostrich or a snake.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Four specific types of Jinn are detailed as significant in the pre-islamic world:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Ghūl - Quoting Al-Jāḥiẓ &quot;Every supernatural creature that takes diverse forms&quot;.  They seem to appear in many different forms, often animalistic, and can appear and disappear &quot;like the light of a torch&quot;.  They (and generally any jinn, it appears) leave a physical corpse behind when killed, thus the poem by Ta'abbata Sharran:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I spent the night leaning on her, waiting for the morning to see what I caught.  Then I found two eyes in an ugly head, similar to the head of a cat with a forked tongue.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Si'lah - The difference between this and the former is not clear to me.  They seem to be more sneaky and clever.  A story exists of a one marrying and bearing human children.  Possible other differences may be that they are active during the day, instead of at night, or that the Se'lah is female, and the Ghūl male.  neither seems to be universally respected though.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Shiqq - A man with only half of a body, and will beat a human to death if encountered.  Again, from Al-Jāḥiẓ:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There, a shiqq appeared to him.  He had only one hand, one eye, one leg.  They recited poetry to each other, then they hit each other, and both of them fell dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Shaytān - They are noted for being smart, cunning and powerful.  And generally rebellious.  May or may not be a loan word from Hebrew, but still not necessarily evil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - ʻIfrīt, Qutrub and Mārid - Not well-known in pre-islamic time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.scribd.com/doc/32732591/The-Evolution-of-the-Concept-of-the-Jinn" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7504" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="207" RevisionGUID="2233bd29-6434-4b52-8dd4-ccff8bc8f71d" CreationDate="2016-07-10T01:56:02.633" Comment="Proposed by 1241 approved by 967, 183 edit id of 338" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7505" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1806" RevisionGUID="3650bf36-a1a5-48e2-befa-ee044b473ec0" CreationDate="2016-07-10T09:01:06.533" UserId="2682" Text="Based on [this really neat family tree of the Emperors of Japan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_imperial_family_tree), I count 84 generations between Amaterasu and the incumbent Emperor Akihito (whose reign began in 1990). As a descendant of the first Emperor Jimmu, Akihito traces himself quite directly back to the &quot;*kami* [divinity] who shines in the sky.&quot; Jimmu was a great-great-great-grandson of Amaterasu, the descent going [four generations separating them] as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Amaterasu-ōmikami ➜ Ame-no-Oshihomimi ➜ Ninigi-no-Mikoto ➜ Hikohohodemi-no-Mikoto ➜ Ugayafukiaezu-no-Mikoto ➜ Jimmu&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the [Encyclopedia of Shinto](http://eos.kokugakuin.ac.jp/modules/xwords/entry.php?entryID=41), Amaterasu and her brother the sea-god Susanowo-no-Mikoto once performed a divination pledge ritual called [*ukehi*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukehi) in order to produce offspring. The ritual required *monozane*, &quot;seed,&quot; for which these two *kami* provided some personal items. Amaterasu wore five hundred jewels called the Yasaka which she gave up for the *ukehi* and, from these, five male *kami* were born. One of these five was Ame-no-Oshihomimi, whose son Ninigi-no-Mikoto was a great-grandfather of Emperor Jimmu.     " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7506" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1801" RevisionGUID="062f00e2-ea8b-42e6-8910-08760a24ff73" CreationDate="2016-07-11T02:32:07.153" UserId="2682" Comment="Corrected name spelling (changed &quot;Amertasu&quot; to &quot;Amaterasu&quot;) &amp; fixed grammar (inserted spaces between clauses &amp; sentences where there had been none).)" Text="Japanese Emperors are said to be direct descendants of the Sun-goddess Amaterasu. As far as I know, Amaterasu married the Moon-god, her brother, but later on, she left him. But they did not have any children. In that case, how did Amaterasu become the ancestor of the Japanese Emperors? From which offspring of the Sun-goddess did they descend from? Who did Amaterasu have this &quot;ancestor of the Japanese Emperors&quot; with?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7507" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1801" RevisionGUID="062f00e2-ea8b-42e6-8910-08760a24ff73" CreationDate="2016-07-11T02:32:07.153" UserId="2682" Comment="Corrected name spelling (changed &quot;Amertasu&quot; to &quot;Amaterasu&quot;) &amp; fixed grammar (inserted spaces between clauses &amp; sentences where there had been none).)" Text="How are Japanese emperors related to Amaterasu?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7508" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1801" RevisionGUID="062f00e2-ea8b-42e6-8910-08760a24ff73" CreationDate="2016-07-11T02:32:07.153" Comment="Proposed by 2682 approved by 967, 42 edit id of 339" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7509" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="152" RevisionGUID="1c8e8428-4d64-4a27-a987-88495cffd111" CreationDate="2016-07-11T02:39:42.880" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved formatting and added three words to body." Text="I believe it may be the Tritons, but there are probably other part-fish, part-humans. Plus, there was a fish-headed god in antiquity (not greco-roman).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A side note is that there were some mistranslations and some of the &quot;sirens&quot; in Greek tales were half-birds and not half-fish (i.e., harpies and not mermaids).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;In Greek mythology, the Sirens were three dangerous bird-women, portrayed as seductresses who lured nearby sailors with their enchanting music and voices to shipwreck on the rocky coast of their island. Roman poets placed them on an island called Sirenum scopuli. In some later, rationalized traditions, the literal geography of the &quot;flowery&quot; island of Anthemoessa, or Anthemusa, is fixed: sometimes on Cape Pelorum and at others in the islands known as the Sirenuse, near Paestum, or in Capreae. All such locations were surrounded by cliffs and rocks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;When the Sirens were given a parentage they were considered the daughters of the river god Achelous, fathered upon Terpsichore, Melpomene, Sterope, or Chthon (the Earth; in Euripides' Helen 167, Helen in her anguish calls upon &quot;Winged maidens, daughters of the Earth&quot;). Although they lured mariners, for the Greeks the Sirens in their &quot;meadow starred with flowers&quot; were not sea deities. Roman writers linked the Sirens more closely to the sea, as daughters of Phorcys.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Their number is variously reported as between two and five. In the Odyssey, Homer says nothing of their origin or names, but gives the number of the Sirens as two. Later writers mention both their names and number: some state that there were three, Peisinoe, Aglaope, and Thelxiepeia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Sirens of Greek mythology are sometimes portrayed in later folklore as fully aquatic and mermaid-like; the facts that in Spanish, French, Italian, Polish, Romanian and Portuguese the word for mermaid is respectively Sirena, Sirene, Sirena, Syrena, Sirena and Sereia, and that in biology the Sirenia comprise an order of fully aquatic mammals that includes the dugong and manatee, add to the visual confusion, so that Sirens are even represented as mermaids. However, &quot;the sirens, though they sing to mariners, are not sea-maidens,&quot; Harrison had cautioned; &quot;they dwell on an island in a flowery meadow.&quot; - [Sirens (Crystalinks)][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;EDIT from comments&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Plus, there was a fish-headed god in antiquity (not greco-roman) could you name him/her? From which mythology is he/she from? –  plannapus May 11 at 9:46&#xD;&#xA;1	 	&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are several, the most famous is Dagon: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Dagon was originally an East Semitic Mesopotamian (Akkadian, Assyrian, Babylonian) fertility god who evolved into a major Northwest Semitic god, reportedly of grain (as symbol of fertility) and fish and/or fishing (as symbol of multiplying).&quot;&#xD;&#xA; 	&#xD;&#xA;There are also fish-headed fertility figures, like: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;The anthropomorphic female sculpture (known as Praroditeljka / Ancestress) found in the front of the sanctuary in house No. XLIV at Lepenski Vir has a large &quot;fish-like&quot; head, collar-bones and clawed hands that appear to be opening up her vulva, in a very similar way to that of European Sheela-Na-Gigs figures.&quot; - [Lepenski Vir &quot;Fish-Head&quot; Ancestress][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; The original Question asked &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;What creatures are they referring to?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If it is a non-mythological creature, it may be based on real anthropomorphic fishes like the monk/clerc fish or the &quot;*cardinal*&quot; fish, the ***[poisson évèque][3]*** which was described by 16th century French naturalists, as in this [site][4] in French.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.crystalinks.com/sirens.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://ancientcraft.co.uk/reenactment/pa_lepenski_vir.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.paranormal-encyclopedie.com/wiki/Articles/Poisson_%C3%A9v%C3%AAque&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://expositions.bnf.fr/lamer/arret/merveill1.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7510" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="152" RevisionGUID="1c8e8428-4d64-4a27-a987-88495cffd111" CreationDate="2016-07-11T02:39:42.880" Comment="Proposed by 1241 approved by 967, 42 edit id of 336" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7511" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1807" RevisionGUID="32b76ff4-1189-4b6c-a8e9-c09b734113de" CreationDate="2016-07-11T11:52:19.713" UserId="2682" Text="***Bile, Not Blood***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Technically it was not the Hydra's blood that was venomous at all. The confusion regarding this seems to arise from the fact that it was Hydra-venom *in combination with someone else's* blood that eventually brought an end to Herakles the Hydra-slayer himself. There does not seem to be any ancient reference to Herakles using the Hydra's blood itself as poison, rather it was the monster's gall or bile which was venomous, and this is what he dipped his arrows in, and is what sealed his arrows as fatality weapons. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only reference which comes close to implying that it was the dragon's blood rather than its bile is a cursory expression used by Hercules in the Roman Seneca's play *Hercules Furens* (&quot;Hercules' Madness&quot;) when he describes the arrows as dipped in *Lernæa nece*, which Frank Justus Miller translates as &quot;Hydra's gore&quot; but literally comes closer to &quot;Lernaea's violent murder/slaying&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles destroyed a good number of his enemies (and a few friends too) by shooting them with his poisoned arrows. One of the last of these enemies was the Centaur Nessos [Nessus], who tried to violate Herakles' bride Deianeira. Nessos thought quite fast as he was dying about how he could be avenged on his slayer even after he himself was long gone. He convinced Deianeira that his own Centaur blood (in one version this is mixed together with another bodily fluid) was a *philtron* [love-potion] which might come in handy someday if Herakles ever became unfaithful to her, and Deianeira collected what she could of it as an insurance policy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;True to form, years later, according to Sophocles' *Trakhiniai*,  Herakles decided to pursue an old flame of his. Deianeira then took the garment which Herakles planned to wear to his new wedding and dipped it in her stash of Nessos' blood. Nessos seemed to have understood full well that the Hydra-gall would remain in his blood permanently (whether the blood was actually a philtron at all, which I suppose we'll never know), and so now, years after the Centaur's death, as soon as Herakles put on the garment, the dragon's gall in Nessos' blood burned him so badly that he couldn't bear to live anymore. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for Herakles' encounter with the many-headed serpent, Hyginus does indeed paint our hero into a difficult scenario. It must have taken quite a bit of heavily exerted breathing to repeatedly chop off several heads from a giant monster while also having to fend off a giant crab. If even the creature's own tracks were poisonous in the dragon's own absence, that would appear to make it nigh impossible to survive a showdown with such a beast. There are two possibilities that I can think of for how Herakles could possibly have slain a massive killer snake in such a toxic environment, let alone survived it.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Lion's Pelt**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To Kill the Hydra was `Mission 2.0` on Herakles' eventual list of 12 Tasks that he had to complete as a slave of his kinsman King Eurystheus of Argolis. `Mission 1.0` had been To Kill the Lion of Nemea, which lion, according to Apollodorus, was a brother of the Hydra. At any rate Herakles did complete his first mission and from then on he wore the skin of the Nemean Lion as armour practically everywhere he went. The lion pelt was impenetrable and impervious, and in ancient artwork the hero is depicted wearing the skin while battling the Hydra. There is no explicit written reference to the idea that the skin might have shielded Herakles in any way against the dragon of Lerna but there are some clues in his later adventures as to how this might have been so.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`Mission 12.0`, the last of the Eurysthean slave tasks, was To Capture Kerberos [Cerberus], the monstrous watchdog of the Underworld (and yet another brother of the Hydra). According to Apollodorus' *Bibliotheka*, one of the reasons that Herakles survived this one is because he covered his own skin completely in the Nemean Lion's pelt, although we have neither more detail about this nor any artwork graphic enough to display for us precisely what this might have looked like. Apollodorus simply tells us that by doing this, Herakles was able to withstand the bites of Kerberos' tail, which was composed of tens of snake- or dragon-heads, in a structure which reminds of the Hydra.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It should be reasonable to assume that a many-headed giant snake would try to bite its attacker, so for sure Herakles' new armour would've come in handy for protection against wounding during his 2nd Task but from what we can see of both Ancient and Modern Greek depictions of him clad in the pelt, there is no obvious means by which his respiratory system was also protected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Herakles in Lionskin][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Herakles &amp; Iolaos vs Hydra][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *scholion* on Iliad 23.841 says that when Aias [Ajax] the son of Herakles' nephew Telamon was a baby, Herakles wrapped him up in the skin of the Nemean Lion so that Aias became invulnerable like his own cousin Akhilleus [Achilles]. The idea here seems to be that an infant's coming into contact with the lion-skin caused the infant to become impervious, as opposed to an adult upon whom such &quot;magic&quot; clearly did not work the same way, since Herakles himself, who wore the pelt all the time, did not grow impervious skin from such extended periods of interaction therewith. Perhaps, though, there was some minor, less permanent effect on an adult whose head was inside the head of the flayed lion, in that it created a pocket of cushioned air. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In case that is not especially convincing (and I don't think that it is) a final insight on it is that both Seneca (again in *Hercules Furens*) and Hyginus, as well as Aelian, say that the Nemean Lion was the son of the moon-goddess. According to Hyginus, the Moon even suckled the lion. (The lion and Herakles had this in common: having drunk the milk of goddesses, since Herakles, when he was a baby, was once suckled by Hera, at least according to Pausanias.) Such contact with the gods often leaves mortals with the scent of ambrosia upon them, and ambrosia has curative and preservative properties, hence its use by Aphrodite to embalm the corpse of the Trojan prince Hektor [Hector] while Akhilleus was angrily dragging it behind his chariot after slaying the prince; and Dionysos' granddaughter Hypsipyle inherited his purple robe which, after two generations, still smelled of the ambrosial perfume which had been placed thereon long before she was born. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In short, it may be that the scent of the Nemean Lion protected Herakles (or something he drank when he was a baby). Even if this is acceptable, there is, however, the problem of the fact that Herakles' charioteer nephew Iolaos was present at the battle against the Hydra, he was neither wearing any magical prophylactic that we know about, nor ingested anything, and he survived the encounter just fine evidently.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Protected by Pallas**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With that being the case, we are essentially left with artwork to rely on as the main explanation source for the dilemma. Hyginus, Valerius Flaccus, Pausanias and Hesiod make brief mention of the idea that Herakles' half-sister the goddess Athena masterminded the strategic aspects of Herakles' 1st Eurysthean task, and, according to Hyginus, it was this goddess who instructed the hero to gut the dragon's carcass in order to harvest her gall for arrow-poison.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ancient artists corroborate Athena's involvement here with their rendition of the story, in which it seems that Athena, the protector of heroes (especially if they're her own brothers like Perseus and Herakles), was standing behind Herakles throughout the Hydra battle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Herakles vs the Hydra][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Athena, Herakles, Karkinos, Hydra &amp; Iolaos][4]][4]    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*She is the woman to the far left in both the above. In the lower of the two she is even brandishing what looks like a spear with which she is either goading Herakles on or is ready to gut the monster alive, before the hero has a crack at it at all.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It may simply be that Pallas Athena protected both Herakles and Iolaos from the Hydra's breath.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/hSXGF.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/rqK9N.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/nueIX.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/SL8Vc.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7512" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="1388" RevisionGUID="6a3f03e6-9b9b-47ce-990c-718d78b79d6f" CreationDate="2016-07-11T21:20:04.520" UserId="183" Comment="28" />
  <row Id="7516" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1795" RevisionGUID="218076ad-4e19-4106-bfcc-b1eb352f1870" CreationDate="2016-07-12T02:25:58.550" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected spelling &amp; fixed grammar" Text="Maybe he actually did.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hypothesis 1. The Dwarven Arts** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to *The Unmanly Man: Concepts of Sexual Defamation in Early Northern Society*, Preben Meulengracht Sørensen is convinced, for some reason, that Loki's milkmaid service &quot;must certainly be taken to mean that Loki served as mistress to giants or trolls,&quot; which he qualifies by adding that the &quot;sexuality [of giants and trolls] was considered gross and unbridled&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is, however, a different group associated with dwelling underground just as much as if not more so than giants or trolls, and that is the dwarves, particularly those of Svartálfaheim (&quot;Black-Elf World/Home&quot;). This seems to be the realm to which, in Skáldskaparmál 35, Loki ventures with a mission to get a collective of artisans called &quot;Ívaldi's Sons&quot; to make new hair for Þórr's [Thor's] wife Sif. With no further explanation, this portion of the Eddas tells us that the artisans made the hair and, seemingly off the cuff, threw in two extra items: Skíðblaðnir, a magic ship which could be folded up and placed in one's pocket like a handkerchief, and which was gifted to the god Freyr; and the magic spear Gungnir, which eventually belonged to Óðinn [Odin].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In circumstances otherwise unexplained, Loki then made a life-and-death wager with a different (rival?) family of dwarf artisans, inducing them to make a few other magic gifts for his fellow deities. This second group of dwarves ended up making, among a few other items, Þórr's famous magic hammer Mjöllnir. In this instance the artisans have clear motivation for this work but it's always puzzled me that there is no explanation ever offered (as far as I'm aware) for why Ívaldi's Sons help Loki at all and go a couple of extra miles in the process, with no apparent word of gratitude towards them. Were they on the Æsir's retainer or something? For them to be so gracious about receiving nothing at all for their labour is completely out of character for dwarves (or for that matter just about every other major ethnic group) in this mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On a later occasion the giant king Þrym [Thrym] somehow managed to steal Mjöllnir from Þórr and then demanded to be given the hand of Freyr's twin, the beautiful goddess Freyja, in marriage. To trick him, Þórr and Loki were compelled to dress in drag in order to impersonate Freyja and her handmaiden respectively, by which ruse they were able to retrieve the magic hammer and slaughter Þrym and his entire family.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A standard part of Þórr's disguise in this instance had to be Freyja's famously bedazzling torc [a type of choker] called Brísingamen. According to *Sörla þáttr eða Heðins saga ok Högna*, Freyja once bought a golden necklace from a group of four dwarves who refused monetary payment. Instead they demanded that she lie with each of them for one night, which terms were accepted. *Sörla þáttr* does not say that this necklace is actually the same as Brísingamen nor does it say anything about the dwarves being a group of brothers called the Brísingar, but both these features are popular modern interpretations, as attested by Jimmy Joe's website [TimelessMyths](https://www.timelessmyths.com/norse/beings.html#Brisings) and Ingrid Halvorsen's website [Sunnyway](http://www.sunnyway.com/runes/gods.html#B), perhaps inspired by Roger Lancelyn Green's book *Myths of the Norsemen*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Skáldskaparmál offers no further detail regarding Ívaldi's Sons apart from saying that they are dwarves while at the same time suggesting that they are also Svartálfar, &quot;Black Elves.&quot; Again, perhaps taking a cue from Green, Joe numbers these &quot;sons&quot; as four. The reason that Green might do so is to identify the four &quot;Brísingar&quot; with Ívaldi's Sons, whom he calls &quot;Black Dwarfs&quot; in a bid to explain why these dwarves have their operations base in Elf-World.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To add my own speculations to those of Sørensen, Green, Joe and Halvorsen, my suggestion here would be that the mission into Giantland undertaken by Þórr and Loki may not have been the first time that Loki disguised himself as a woman associated with Freyja in order to acquire an item for the gods. Earlier in the same story it is Loki who discovers that Þrym has stolen Mjöllnir. He does this by reconnoitering in the form of a falcon. He is able to take this form because of a magic cloak of feathers owned by Freyja, which garment Loki borrows for this purpose. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It stands to reason that there's a missing story here regarding how Ívaldi's Sons came to owe Loki a favour. Perchance this time he didn't borrow clothing from Freyja or pretend to be her servant but actually borrowed her own form and performed a similar service towards the artisans in Svartálfaheim that Freyja would perhaps earlier have done in relation to the four dwarves who made her golden neck-piece, if *Sörla þáttr* is to be believed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On other hand, these dwarves might be Loki's sons with Ívaldi as the father. Throughout the Eddas, [elves and Æsir are cited in close association with each other](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/1745/2682) [see under &quot;Norsemen: The Svartálfar&quot; in link]. The connection between the elves and these dwarves could thus be explained on account of their mother being an Ás [masculine singular of *Æsir*], the same Ás who gave birth, in the form of a mare, to Óðinn's magic horse Sleipnir. It would flow well in hand with Loki's irony and wackiness that he is a giant who becomes the parent of a collective of dwarves who create weaponry for the giants' traditional enemy the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hypothesis 2. The Unweeping Giantess** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Speaking of Loki's offspring, he has a famous daughter, a giant goddess named Hel, or Hela, to whom Óðinn, in the Prose Edda, inexplicably gives apparently absolute authority over anyone who does not die in battle. These dead are sent to the land of perpetual cold, ice, snow and darkness at the northern end of the universe, over which realm Hel has control. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Óðinn soon comes to regret the decision because his beautiful son Balder, the universe's most favourite person, is not long afterwards killed through Loki's treachery, and he naturally goes to Hel. The Æsir must then petition Hel to release Balder (apparently to resurrect) if they wish to see him before they all die at the end of the world. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hel is willing to break the rules and allow this on condition that every single person and object in the universe, dead or alive, weeps for the slain young Ás. If even one thing fails to do so, Balder will only be restored after the Ragnarök, as prophecy says. With that, accoring to the Gylfaginning, &quot;the Æsir sent over all the world messengers to beg for Balder to be wept out of Hel; and all people did this, and living things, and the earth, and stones, and trees, and all metals&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Presumably even all the giants of Giantland participated as did Hel herself. However, in a certain cave somewhere there sat one giantess, poignantly named Þökk [Thok, &quot;Thanks&quot;], and she said that she had no love for Balder, calling him &quot;the churl's son&quot; and scoffing that Hel can keep him. This giantess, says the Gylfaginning, is suspected to have been Loki in disguise, which would make sense since Loki is the only person who hated Balder. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Immediately following this account is the story of Loki hiding in a mountain waterfall in the form of a salmon before being captured and subjected to some innovative and permanent torture methods by his fellow deities. After that is a description of the Ragnarök. The flytings in *Lokasenna* take place sometime after the messengers' encounter with Þökk and immediately before Loki's escape to the waterfall shortly prior to his final binding. If Þökk really is a cypher for Loki, perhaps [s]he was under such an incredible amount of pressure, as the only being in the entire universe refusing to facilitate the restoration of the world's most [well-]wanted man, that [s]he may indeed have needed to go literally underground. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And, as Loki's previous (mis)adventures have shown, there are certain things he is quite able (if not also quite willing) to do in a bind. Perhaps at the opening of *Lokasenna* eight years have elapsed since the first appearance of Þökk, who has been in hiding in a subterraneous cave in the company of giants or some other creatures, milking their cattle. And doing other things that Loki might do in order to keep up a disguise. This would require that Óðinn and Njörð already know somehow about Þökk-Loki's escapade. With Óðinn's two surveillance ravens, however, this would not be an especially difficult task.             " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7517" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1807" RevisionGUID="d154c626-3294-47b5-8ff4-cd03bee68437" CreationDate="2016-07-12T02:40:56.043" UserId="2682" Comment="added 1141 characters in body" Text="***Bile, Not Blood***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Technically it was not the Hydra's blood that was venomous at all. The confusion regarding this seems to arise from the fact that it was Hydra-venom *in combination with someone else's* blood that eventually brought an end to Herakles the Hydra-slayer himself. There does not seem to be any ancient reference to Herakles using the Hydra's blood itself as poison, rather it was the monster's gall or bile which was venomous, and this is what he dipped his arrows in, and is what sealed his arrows as fatality weapons. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only reference which comes close to implying that it was the dragon's blood rather than its bile is a cursory expression used in the Roman Seneca's play *Hercules Furens* (&quot;Hercules' Madness&quot;). In it, Hercules describes the arrows as dipped in *Lernæa nece*, which Frank Justus Miller translates as &quot;Hydra's gore&quot; but literally comes closer to &quot;Lernaea's violent murder/slaying&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles destroyed a good number of his enemies (and a few friends too) by the use of his poisoned arrows. One of the last of these enemies was the Centaur Nessos [Nessus], who tried to violate Herakles' bride Deianeira. As he was dying, Nessos thought quite fast about how he could be avenged on his slayer even after he himself was long gone. He convinced Deianeira that his own Centaur blood (in one version this is mixed together with another bodily fluid) was a *philtron* [love-potion] which might come in handy someday if Herakles ever became unfaithful to her, and Deianeira collected what she could of it as an insurance policy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;True to form, years later, according to Sophocles' *Trakhiniai*,  Herakles decided to pursue an old flame of his. Deianeira then took the garment which Herakles planned to wear to his new wedding and dipped it in her stash of Nessos' blood. Nessos seems to have understood full well that the Hydra-gall would remain in his blood permanently (whether the blood was actually a philtron at all, which I suppose we'll never know). So now, years after the Centaur's death, as soon as Herakles put on the garment, the dragon's gall in Nessos' blood burned him so badly that he couldn't bear to live anymore. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for Herakles' encounter with the many-headed serpent, Hyginus does indeed paint our hero into a difficult scenario. It must have taken quite a bit of heavily exerted breathing to repeatedly chop off several heads from a giant monster while also having to fend off a giant crab. If even the creature's own footprints were poisonous [whether the dragon was present or not], without some decent self-insulation, it really should be virtually impossible to survive an actual showdown with such a beast. There are two possibilities I can think of for how Herakles could have slain a massive killer snake in such a toxic environment, let alone survived said environment.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Lion's Pelt**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To Kill the Hydra was `Mission 2.0` on Herakles' eventual list of 12 Tasks that he had to complete as a slave of his kinsman King Eurystheus of Argolis. `Mission 1.0` had been To Kill the Lion of Nemea, which lion, according to Apollodorus, was a brother of the Hydra. At any rate Herakles did complete his first mission and from then on he wore the skin of the Nemean Lion as armour practically everywhere he went. The lion pelt was impenetrable and impervious, and in ancient artwork the hero is usually depicted wearing the skin while battling the Hydra. There is no explicit written reference to the idea that the skin might have shielded Herakles in any way against the dragon of Lerna but there are some clues in his later adventures as to how this might have been so.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`Mission 12.0`, the last of the Eurysthean slave tasks, was To Capture Kerberos [Cerberus], the monstrous watchdog of the Underworld (and yet another brother of the Hydra). According to Apollodorus' *Bibliotheka*, one of the reasons that Herakles survived this one is because he covered his own skin completely in the Nemean Lion's pelt, although we have neither more detail about this nor any artwork graphic enough to display for us precisely what this might have looked like. Apollodorus simply tells us that by doing this, Herakles was able to withstand the bites of Kerberos' tail, which was composed of tens of snake- or dragon-heads, in a structure which reminds of the Hydra.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It should be reasonable to assume that a many-headed giant snake would try to bite its attacker, so for sure Herakles' recently acquired armour would've come in handy for protection against wounding during his 2nd Task. However, from what we can see of both Ancient and Modern Greek depictions of him clad in the pelt, there is no obvious means by which his respiratory system was also protected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Herakles in Lionskin][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Herakles &amp; Iolaos vs Hydra][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *scholion* on Iliad 23.841 says that when Aias [Ajax], the son of Herakles' nephew Telamon, was a baby, Herakles wrapped him up in the skin of the Nemean Lion so that Aias became invulnerable like his cousin Akhilleus [Achilles]. The idea here seems to be that an infant's coming into contact with the lion-skin caused the infant to become impervious, as opposed to an adult upon whom such &quot;magic&quot; clearly did not work the same way, since Herakles himself, who wore the pelt all the time, did not grow impervious skin from such extended periods of interaction therewith. Perhaps, though, there was some minor, less permanent effect on an adult whose head was helmeted inside the head of the flayed lion, in that it created a pocket of cushioned air. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In case that is not especially convincing (and I don't think that it is) a final insight on it is that both Seneca (again in *Hercules Furens*) and Hyginus, as well as Aelian, say that the Nemean Lion was the son of the moon-goddess. According to Hyginus, the Moon even suckled the lion. (The lion and Herakles had this in common: having drunk the milk of goddesses, since Herakles, when he was a baby, was once suckled by Hera, at least according to Pausanias.) Such contact with the gods often leaves mortals with the scent of ambrosia upon them, and ambrosia has curative and preservative properties. Hence its use by Aphrodite to embalm the corpse of the Trojan prince Hektor [Hector] while Akhilleus was angrily dragging it behind his chariot after slaying the prince. And Dionysos' granddaughter Hypsipyle inherited the wine-god's purple robe which, after two generations, still smelled of the ambrosial perfume which had been placed thereon long before she was born. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In short, it may be that the scent of the Nemean Lion protected Herakles, or something he drank when he was a baby augmented his respiratory immunity. Even if this is acceptable, there is, however, the problem of the fact that Herakles' charioteer nephew Iolaos was present at the battle against the Hydra. Iolaos was not wearing any magical prophylactic that we know about, nor had he benefited from any divine breastfeeding, but he evidently survived the encounter with the Hydra just fine.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Protected by Pallas**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With that being the case, we are essentially left with artwork to rely on as the main explanation source for the dilemma. Hyginus, Valerius Flaccus, Pausanias and Hesiod make brief mention of the idea that Herakles' half-sister the goddess Athena masterminded the strategic aspects of Herakles' 1st Eurysthean task, and, according to Hyginus, it was this goddess who instructed the hero to gut the dragon's carcass in order to harvest her gall for arrow-poison.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ancient artists corroborate Athena's involvement here with their renditions of the story, in which it seems that Athena, the protector of heroes (especially if they're her own brothers like Perseus and Herakles), was standing behind Herakles throughout the Hydra battle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Herakles vs the Hydra][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;*She is the woman to the far left in the image above and in the one below.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Athena, Herakles, Karkinos, Hydra &amp; Iolaos][4]][4]    &#xD;&#xA;*Here she is even brandishing what looks like a spear with which she is either goading Herakles on or is ready to skewer the monster alive, before the hero even has a crack at it.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It may simply be that Pallas Athena, somehow, protected both Herakles and Iolaos from the Hydra's breath.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Euhemerisation Anecdote***  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The generally accepted interpretation of the legend is that “the hydra&#xD;&#xA;&gt; denotes the damp, swampy ground of Lerna with its numerous springs&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (κεφαλαί, heads); its poison the miasmic vapours rising from the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stagnant water; its death at the hands of Heracles the introduction of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the culture and consequent purification of the soil” (Preller). A&#xD;&#xA;&gt; euhemeristic explanation is given by Palaephatus (39). An ancient king&#xD;&#xA;&gt; named Lernus occupied a small citadel named Hydra, which was defended&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by 50 bowmen. Heracles besieged the citadel and hurled firebrands at&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the garrison. As often as one of the defenders fell, two others at&#xD;&#xA;&gt; once stepped into his place. The citadel was finally taken with the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; assistance of the army of Iolaus and the garrison slain.  &#xD;&#xA;`HYDRA in Vol. 14 of The Encyclopaedia Britannica: A Dictionary of Arts, Sciences, Literature and General Information (11th Edition, 1910-1911)`&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/hSXGF.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/rqK9N.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/nueIX.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/SL8Vc.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7519" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1809" RevisionGUID="f41f2e52-3a87-4a4e-9f99-0b2958404d00" CreationDate="2016-07-12T18:12:13.057" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7520" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1810" RevisionGUID="3c37f023-ebdf-412f-8d5a-f04cc75c4e99" CreationDate="2016-07-12T18:12:13.057" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7529" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1471" RevisionGUID="c82172e8-9806-44b6-aa19-8372886665b7" CreationDate="2016-07-14T12:41:20.890" UserId="967" Comment="grammar" Text="In most all references to the Lernaean Hydra, it says that the hydra has venomous *breath* and blood.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Pseudo-Hyginus, Fabulae 30 :&#xD;&#xA;&quot;He [Herakles] killed at the spring of Lerna the nine headed Lernaean Hydra, offspring of Typhon. This monster was so poisonous that she killed men with her breath, and if anyone passed by when she was sleeping, he breathed her tracks and died in greatest torment. Under Minerva’s [Athene’s] instructions he killed her, disembowelled her, and dipped his arrows in her gall; and so whatever later he hit with his arrows did not escape death, and later he himself perished in Phrygia from the same cause.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; **How did Hercules avoided breathing in the poisonous fumes?** We know that the poison was potent enough to kill him, as that is how he eventually dies. Is there some information in the story that tell us how he deals with this? Or is it just not included in the myths?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7530" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1471" RevisionGUID="c82172e8-9806-44b6-aa19-8372886665b7" CreationDate="2016-07-14T12:41:20.890" UserId="967" Comment="grammar" Text="How did Hercules avoided the Hydra's venomous breath?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7531" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1812" RevisionGUID="cbf788a5-3a7f-4f87-ba98-6d8a0277a24e" CreationDate="2016-07-14T12:45:06.537" UserId="967" Text="When Hercules fought the Hydra, it had 9 heads I think.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But the way of the Hydra is that when one is cut down 2 grow up. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So obviously some foolish fighters went in and cut some heads before, to know that information. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what I am asking, when the Hydra was first born, How many heads did he originally have?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7532" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1812" RevisionGUID="cbf788a5-3a7f-4f87-ba98-6d8a0277a24e" CreationDate="2016-07-14T12:45:06.537" UserId="967" Text="How many heads did the Hydra originally have?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7533" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1812" RevisionGUID="cbf788a5-3a7f-4f87-ba98-6d8a0277a24e" CreationDate="2016-07-14T12:45:06.537" UserId="967" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7535" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1813" RevisionGUID="1fd55a8d-ffa5-411a-bc48-1cc7d88ac948" CreationDate="2016-07-14T19:13:19.417" UserId="42" Text="There are many different accounts.  I don't believe a simple, conclusive &quot;it started with X heads&quot; is possible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    --------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Author         | # of heads     | Regeneration             |&#xD;&#xA;    ==============================================================&#xD;&#xA;    | Hesiod         | N/A            | N/A                      |&#xD;&#xA;    --------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Alcaeus        | 9              | N/A                      |&#xD;&#xA;    --------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Simondes       | 50             | N/A                      |&#xD;&#xA;    --------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Euripides      | Many           | Yes                      |&#xD;&#xA;    --------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Plato          | N/A            | Many for each severed    |&#xD;&#xA;    --------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Apollodorus    | 9              | 2 for each severed       |&#xD;&#xA;    --------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Pausanias      | 1              | No                       |&#xD;&#xA;    --------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Diodorus       | 100            | 2 for each severed       |&#xD;&#xA;    |   Siculus      |                |                          |&#xD;&#xA;    --------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Quintus        | Many           | &gt;1 for each severed      |&#xD;&#xA;    |   Smyrnaeus    |                |                          |&#xD;&#xA;    --------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Hyginus        | 9              | N/A                      |&#xD;&#xA;    --------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Ovid           | 100            | 2 for each severed       |&#xD;&#xA;    --------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Seneca         | Many           | N/A                      |&#xD;&#xA;    --------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Nonnus         | Many           | Yes                      |&#xD;&#xA;    --------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7541" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1815" RevisionGUID="26c5f4eb-16b9-4127-8293-eb763b48f2e6" CreationDate="2016-07-15T14:42:47.253" UserId="2682" Text="Virtually all the ichthyanthropomorphic [part fish, part humanoid] characters featured in Greco-Roman mythology are water deities, usually sea-gods. Even Aigipan, the one aegichthyomorphic [part goat, part fish] character of these myths, is a god (who was made into one of the twelve signs of the zodiac, the Sea-Goat Capricorn). And as a matter of fact all the top-shelf water-gods in this mythology are at least partly ichthyomorphous [fish-shaped], with the glaring exception of their king Poseidon. (I suggest why this is the case in the last section below.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Okeanos and Eurynome**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only explicit description (that I've been able to find) of a creature which fits the description of a mermaid, i.e. a woman with the lower half of a fish in place of legs, in ancient Greco-Roman myth, is from Pausanias' travelogue called the Description of Greece. On his tour of Arkadia [Arcadia] the writer came across a river called &quot;Afterbirth.&quot; At the point at which it met with another river there was a shrine to Eurynome which even in Pausanias' time was supposed to be ancient. Says the writer, the Phigalians believed that Eurynome was a surname of the goddess Artemis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Those of them, however, to whom have descended ancient traditions,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; declare that Eurynome was a daughter of [*the Titan*] Okeanos, whom&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Homer mentions in the *Iliad*, saying that along with Thetis she&#xD;&#xA;&gt; received Hephaistos [*when he was cast out of heaven at birth by his own mother Hera*]. On the same day in each year they open the sanctuary of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eurynome, but at any other time it is a transgression for them to open&#xD;&#xA;&gt; it. On this occasion sacrifices also are offered by the state and by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; individuals. I did not arrive at the season of the festival, and I did&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not see the image of Eurynome; but the Phigalians told me that golden&#xD;&#xA;&gt; chains bind the wooden image, which represents a woman as far as the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hips, but below this a fish. If she is a daughter of Okeanos, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lives with Thetis in the depth of the sea, the fish may be regarded as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a kind of emblem of her. But there could be no probable connection&#xD;&#xA;&gt; between such a shape and Artemis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Contrary to Pausanias I can think of a few reasons why Artemis would be thus represented, including the fact that Artemis was closely connected to at least sixty daughters of Okeanos [Oceanus].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautika*, before Poseidon's parents (and Artemis' grandparents) the Titans Kronos and Rhea ruled the universe, atop Mt Olympos [Olympus] there sat enthroned an ancient Titan couple, namely Ophion (&quot;Snake&quot;) and Eurynome. While Kronos wrestled Ophion for his throne, Rhea wrestled Eurynome for hers. The younger Titans won the matches and cast their defeated opponents into Tartaros, the deepest part of the Underworld. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In an alternate ending, Kronos and Rhea hurled Ophion and Eurynome into the Okeanos River. Perhaps the meaning here is that Ophion fell to Earth and *became* the world-encircling stream of Okeanos in which waters Eurynome dwelt thenceforward. It is here that she is later found in the company of her niece, the Nereid Thetis, and where they receive the fallen Hephaistos. It may be at the point of *her* own fall that Eurynome acquired her ichthyoid features. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If this is so, it should be easy to see her affinity for Hephaistos, who was rejected by his mother because he was born deformed, and either he was also born crippled or the fall from heaven took from him the use of his legs. In Hesiod's *Theogony*, around the time of the cataclysmic conflict between Kronos and his son Zeus, Eurynome became the third in Zeus' series of seven wives. She bore him three goddesses called the Kharites [Charites, &quot;Graces&quot;], one of whom would become the wife of her own half-brother Hephaistos.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In interpreting the writings of Pherekydes of Syros, from whom Apollonius seems to have acquired his wrestling-match episode, Eusebius of Caesarea posits that Ophion is essentially an original Phoenician version of Okeanos. Whatever the case may be with that, there is iconographic material which might provide a conceptual connection between them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Procession of Deities at Wedding of Peleus &amp; Thetis][1]][1] &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;In the centre of this image we have Okeanos attending the wedding of his granddaughter Thetis among the other deities. In his right hand he holds a fish and his left a snake. (If Israel was Hellenised enough by the 1st century AD perhaps there's a connection to be found between this and the question asked in Luke 11.11: &quot;What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of *ikhthyos* [a fish] give him *ophin* [a serpent]?&quot;) Okeanos' lower half is itself more serpentine or eel-like than it is especially ichthyoid, although I suppose it might represent something such as an oarfish, which, apart from being a genuine *ikhthys*, is no small creature.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[![Oarfish][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Nereus, Phorkys, Triton and the Ikhthyokentauroi**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Okeanos, the firstborn Titan, was older than the Sea-King Poseidon, but there were other water deities who may have been yet older than Okeanos, and these are his half-brothers Nereus, Phorkys [Phorcys] and Thaümas, the sons of Pontos (the Sea) and Gaia (the Earth). Of these, Hesiod says that Nereus was the eldest, who got married to Okeanos' daughter Doris. There do not seem to be any surviving ancient depictions of Thaümas but Phorkys is featured in Antiochene Roman mosaic while Nereus is a lot more popular, appearing on Greek pottery hundreds of years earlier. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unlike her sister Eurynome, Doris was not a mermaid, and both she and her husband are depicted as completely humanoid, although there are quite a few instances of Nereus appearing as almost indistinguishable from his half-brother/father-in-law Okeanos, complete with the giant serpentine fish-tail in place of legs. Nereus and Doris had fifty daughters and one son, none of whom is described as ichthyomorphous at all (except for the fact that the son was eventually transformed into a shellfish). One of the daughters, Amphitrite, married Poseidon and thus became the Queen of the Sea. Together they had a number of children, all completely humanoid except for the huge merman Triton, who became an important sea-god. Lake Tritonis in Libya, where he lived, was named after him.     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nereus possessed arcane knowledge and was also fond of shape-shifting. He was willing to part with his hidden knowledge if the seeker thereof was able to wrestle him without losing his grasp upon him while the god transformed himself into all sorts of things like various animals, plants, water and fire. His daughter Thetis and grandson Triton seem to have inherited this trait from him. Thus among the adventures of Herakles is included a wrestling-match first against Triton, who barred the way to his grandfather, and then again against Nereus to acquire from him the information that he wished to obtain. Thetis agreed to marry the mortal king Peleus only if he managed a similar feat against herself, which he did.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Herakles vs Triton, Flanked by Nereus &amp; Poseidon][3]][3]   &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;This art-piece would appear to be preserving a tradition in which not only Nereus (left, completely humanoid) was present when Herakles wrestled with Triton (centre) but so was Triton's father Poseidon (right, wielding his Trident).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the Byzantine lexicographer Suidas, Carthaginians were originally called the *Aphroi*. They derived their name from their ancestor Aphros, the first king of Libya. Africa had previously been referred to as Libya but from the seafaring Aphroi it received its current designation. King Aphros, says Suidas, was a son of Kronos by Okeanos' daughter Philyra, which would thus make him the brother of the Centaur Kheiron [Chiron] and a half-brother of Poseidon and Zeus. From Roman mosaics in Carthage, Cyprus and Antioch, we know that Aphros was an Ikhthyokentauros [Ichthyocentaur, &quot;Fish-Centaur,&quot; as distinct from the Hippokentauroi, &quot;Horse-Centaurs,&quot; such as Kheiron]. Essentially, Ikhthyokentauroi were part god, part horse and part lobster (or—in place of the lobster parts—crab, or, as usual, serpentine fish), sometimes portrayed as red all over.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;William Smith’s 1867 Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology describes the Ikhthyokentauros as “a particular kind of Triton”. The aforementioned mosaics also portray other specimens of this Libyan breed of mermen, who may also be sons of Kronos and Philyra. Courtesy of Aaron Atmsa's website The Theoi Project, we have them listed as Bythos, Agreus, Anaresineus and Gaeeus. Most of the &quot;merpeople&quot; of Greco-Roman myth, however, belong to the tribe of sea-sprites descended from Triton himself, and these are thus called the Tritones [*Tritons*], the females of whom are Tritonides (Anglicised *Tritonesses*). In his *Imagines* [&quot;Images&quot;] Philostratus the Elder says that the Tritonides were the handmaidens of Nereus' daughter Galateia (who at some point is beloved of the Cyclops Polyphemos). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Roman mosaics, a maroon-coloured Bythos appears carrying Thetis and flanked by Thetis' mother Doris and sister Galateia; Anaresineus is carrying Galateia; Agreus is carrying the Nereid Kymothoe; and Gaaeus is carrying the Nereid Pherusa.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Anaresineus &amp; Galateia][4]][4]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Galateia and Anaresineus:* Okeanos and nearly all the sea-gods depicted in these mosaics have crab's forelegs as horns.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][5]][5]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Merman Phorkys carrying his niece, the Nereid Dynamene. He is not horned like the Ikhthyokentauroi but he does still have the crab's forelegs, albeit growing from his waist.*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first Triton also had at least four daughters, who presumably were all mermaids, or at least avid shape-shifters like him and his grandfather Nereus: namely [Tritonis](http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheTritonis.html) (according to Apollonius Rhodius &amp; Hyginus), [Triteia](http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheTriteia.html) [or Tritaia] (according to Pausanias), [Kalliste](http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheKalliste.html) (according to Apollonius Rhodius) and [Pallas](http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NymphePallas.html) (according to Apollodorus). Their mother was probably Okeanos' daughter Libya, who had given to Africa its previous name. According to Atsma, most of the Tritones were similar in appearance to the first Triton &quot;but others were said to be monstrous creatures with red eyes, sea-green hair, vicious teeth and dolphin-tails.&quot; He further describes the Tritones as the attendants of the major sea-gods, which would include their ancestors Nereus and Poseidon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Spartan Triton][6]][6]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;In Greek and Italian mosaic the form that Triton takes is an interesting case which distinguishes him from other mermen in that he actually seems to have a literal *pair of legs*, except that each leg is a fish-tail. This corresponds surprisingly closely to the description of the Giants against whom the gods went to war. These creatures are also bipedal but their legs are snakes, which could provide an aquatic connection back to Ophion-Okeanos, their half-brother.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Poseidon, Glaükos, Palaimon and Proteus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Curiously, the only time that Poseidon ever seems to take on the form of a sea animal is in an obscure story mentioned by Ovid, who is building on a passing statement of Pausanias. The city of Delphi was reputedly named after a son of Apollon [Apollo] but in this version Poseidon somehow managed to seduce Melantho, daughter of Deukalion and Pyrrha, in the form of a dolphin. The child they have together is called Delphos, &quot;Dolphin,&quot; and after him the famous city receives its name. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Barring this, Poseidon is unique among all sea-gods, who each, with their hybrid shapes, seem to represent the changing nature of the sea. [Glaükos](http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Glaukos.html) [Glaücus] and Melikertes-[Palaimon](http://www.theoi.com/Gallery/Z34.4B.html) [Melicertes-Palaemon], when they became sea-gods, also basically turned into mermen. The snake-like form of the mermen's fish-tails suggests a fluidity of form which Poseidon perhaps counters with Olympian stability, with himself as the bridge between the sea and the rest of the cosmos. However, if the Melanthian Delphos story really is something to go by, perhaps there might have been ancient artistic depictions of Poseidon in mid transformation, with his upper half humanoid and the lower that of a dolphin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although he is never described as a merman, Poseidon's herdsman Proteus bears striking resemblance to Nereus, whose son-in-law he also is. Both of them are called the Old Man of the Sea, and Proteus prefers not to share his wisdom unless its seeker can out-wrestle him through an adrenaline-rush series of metamorphoses. It is not unlikely that Proteus looked like all the ichthyoid sea-gods, or at least, in nature and form, was like something in between Poseidon and Nereus.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/7EuC0.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/HK010.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Ts0aA.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/dLMrd.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/SreFl.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/WjQAI.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7542" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1815" RevisionGUID="37957122-dcd0-447a-81a2-5dc1604e2f82" CreationDate="2016-07-15T14:52:13.720" UserId="2682" Comment="added 128 characters in body" Text="Virtually all the ichthyanthropomorphic [part fish, part humanoid] characters featured in Greco-Roman mythology are water deities, usually sea-gods. Even Aigipan, the one aegichthyomorphic [part goat, part fish] character of these myths, is a god (who was made into one of the twelve signs of the zodiac, the Sea-Goat Capricorn). And as a matter of fact all the top-shelf water-gods in this mythology are at least partly ichthyomorphous [fish-shaped], with the glaring exception of their king Poseidon. (I suggest why this is the case in the last section below.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Okeanos and Eurynome**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only explicit description (that I've been able to find) of a creature which fits the description of a mermaid, i.e. a woman with the lower half of a fish in place of legs, in ancient Greco-Roman myth, is from Pausanias' travelogue called the Description of Greece. On his tour of Arkadia [Arcadia] the writer came across a river called &quot;Afterbirth.&quot; At the point at which it met with another river there was a shrine to Eurynome which even in Pausanias' time was supposed to be ancient. Says the writer, the Phigalians believed that Eurynome was a surname of the goddess Artemis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Those of them, however, to whom have descended ancient traditions,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; declare that Eurynome was a daughter of [*the Titan*] Okeanos, whom&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Homer mentions in the *Iliad*, saying that along with Thetis she&#xD;&#xA;&gt; received Hephaistos [*when he was cast out of heaven at birth by his own mother Hera*]. On the same day in each year they open the sanctuary of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eurynome, but at any other time it is a transgression for them to open&#xD;&#xA;&gt; it. On this occasion sacrifices also are offered by the state and by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; individuals. I did not arrive at the season of the festival, and I did&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not see the image of Eurynome; but the Phigalians told me that golden&#xD;&#xA;&gt; chains bind the wooden image, which represents a woman as far as the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hips, but below this a fish. If she is a daughter of Okeanos, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lives with Thetis in the depth of the sea, the fish may be regarded as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a kind of emblem of her. But there could be no probable connection&#xD;&#xA;&gt; between such a shape and Artemis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Contrary to Pausanias I can think of a few reasons why Artemis would be thus represented, including the fact that Artemis was closely connected to at least sixty daughters of Okeanos [Oceanus].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautika*, before Poseidon's parents (and Artemis' grandparents) the Titans Kronos and Rhea ruled the universe, atop Mt Olympos [Olympus] there sat enthroned an ancient Titan couple, namely Ophion (&quot;Snake&quot;) and Eurynome. While Kronos wrestled Ophion for his throne, Rhea wrestled Eurynome for hers. The younger Titans won the matches and cast their defeated opponents into Tartaros, the deepest part of the Underworld. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In an alternate ending, Kronos and Rhea hurled Ophion and Eurynome into the Okeanos River. Perhaps the meaning here is that Ophion fell to Earth and *became* the world-encircling stream of Okeanos in which waters Eurynome dwelt thenceforward. It is here that she is later found in the company of her niece, the Nereid Thetis, and where they receive the fallen Hephaistos. It may be at the point of *her* own fall that Eurynome acquired her ichthyoid features. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If this is so, it should be easy to see her affinity for Hephaistos, who was rejected by his mother because he was born deformed, and either he was also born crippled or the fall from heaven took from him the use of his legs. In Hesiod's *Theogony*, around the time of the cataclysmic conflict between Kronos and his son Zeus, Eurynome became the third in Zeus' series of seven wives. She bore him three goddesses called the Kharites [Charites, &quot;Graces&quot;], one of whom would become the wife of her own half-brother Hephaistos.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In interpreting the writings of Pherekydes of Syros, from whom Apollonius seems to have acquired his wrestling-match episode, Eusebius of Caesarea posits that Ophion is essentially an original Phoenician version of Okeanos. Whatever the case may be with that, there is iconographic material which might provide a conceptual connection between them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Procession of Deities at Wedding of Peleus &amp; Thetis][1]][1] &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;In the centre of this image we have Okeanos attending the wedding of his granddaughter Thetis among the other deities. In his right hand he holds a fish and his left a snake. (If Israel was Hellenised enough by the 1st century AD perhaps there's a connection to be found between this and the question asked in Luke 11.11: &quot;What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of *ikhthyos* [a fish] give him *ophin* [a serpent]?&quot;) Okeanos' lower half is itself more serpentine or eel-like than it is especially ichthyoid, although I suppose it might represent something such as an oarfish, which, apart from being a genuine *ikhthys*, is no small creature.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[![Oarfish][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Nereus, Phorkys, Triton and the Ikhthyokentauroi**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Okeanos, the firstborn Titan, was older than the Sea-King Poseidon, but there were other water deities who may have been yet older than Okeanos, and these are his half-brothers Nereus, Phorkys [Phorcys] and Thaümas, the sons of Pontos (the Sea) and Gaia (the Earth). Of these, Hesiod says that Nereus was the eldest, who got married to Okeanos' daughter Doris. There do not seem to be any surviving ancient depictions of Thaümas but Phorkys is featured in Antiochene Roman mosaic while Nereus is a lot more popular, appearing on Greek pottery hundreds of years earlier. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unlike her sister Eurynome, Doris was not a mermaid, and both she and her husband are depicted as completely humanoid, although there are quite a few instances of Nereus appearing as almost indistinguishable from his half-brother/father-in-law Okeanos, complete with the giant serpentine fish-tail in place of legs. Nereus and Doris had fifty daughters and one son, none of whom is described as ichthyomorphous at all (except for the fact that the son was eventually transformed into a shellfish). One of the daughters, Amphitrite, married Poseidon and thus became the Queen of the Sea. Together they had a number of children, all completely humanoid except for the huge merman Triton, who became an important sea-god. Lake Tritonis in Libya, where he lived, was named after him.     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nereus possessed arcane knowledge and was also fond of shape-shifting. He was willing to part with his hidden knowledge if the seeker thereof was able to wrestle him without losing his grasp upon him while the god transformed himself into all sorts of things like various animals, plants, water and fire. His daughter Thetis and grandson Triton seem to have inherited this trait from him. Thus among the adventures of Herakles is included a wrestling-match first against Triton, who barred the way to his grandfather, and then again against Nereus to acquire from him the information that he wished to obtain. Thetis agreed to marry the mortal king Peleus only if he managed a similar feat against herself, which he did.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Herakles vs Triton, Flanked by Nereus &amp; Poseidon][3]][3]   &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;This art-piece would appear to be preserving a tradition in which not only Nereus (left, completely humanoid) was present when Herakles wrestled with Triton (centre) but so was Triton's father Poseidon (right, wielding his Trident).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the Byzantine lexicographer Suidas, Carthaginians were originally called the *Aphroi*. They derived their name from their ancestor Aphros, the first king of Libya. Africa had previously been referred to as Libya but from the seafaring Aphroi it received its current designation. King Aphros, says Suidas, was a son of Kronos by Okeanos' daughter Philyra, which would thus make him the brother of the Centaur Kheiron [Chiron] and a half-brother of Poseidon and Zeus. From Roman mosaics in Carthage, Cyprus and Antioch, we know that Aphros was an Ikhthyokentauros [Ichthyocentaur, &quot;Fish-Centaur,&quot; as distinct from the Hippokentauroi, &quot;Horse-Centaurs,&quot; such as Kheiron]. Essentially, Ikhthyokentauroi were part god, part horse and part lobster (or—in place of the lobster parts—crab, or, as usual, serpentine fish), sometimes portrayed as red all over.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;William Smith’s 1867 Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology describes the Ikhthyokentauros as “a particular kind of Triton”. The aforementioned mosaics also portray other specimens of this Libyan breed of mermen, who may also be sons of Kronos and Philyra. Courtesy of Aaron Atmsa's website The Theoi Project, we have them listed as Bythos, Agreus, Anaresineus and Gaeeus. Most of the &quot;merpeople&quot; of Greco-Roman myth, however, belong to the tribe of sea-sprites descended from Triton himself, and these are thus called the Tritones [*Tritons*], the females of whom are Tritonides (Anglicised *Tritonesses*). In his *Imagines* [&quot;Images&quot;] Philostratus the Elder says that the Tritonides were the handmaidens of Nereus' daughter Galateia (who at some point is beloved of the Cyclops Polyphemos). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Roman mosaics, a maroon-coloured Bythos appears carrying Thetis and flanked by Thetis' mother Doris and sister Galateia; Anaresineus is carrying Galateia; Agreus is carrying the Nereid Kymothoe; and Gaaeus is carrying the Nereid Pherusa.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Anaresineus &amp; Galateia][4]][4]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Galateia and Anaresineus:* Okeanos and nearly all the sea-gods depicted in these mosaics have crab's forelegs as horns.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][5]][5]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Merman Phorkys carrying his niece, the Nereid Dynamene. He is not horned like the Ikhthyokentauroi but he does still have the crab's forelegs, albeit growing from his waist.*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first Triton also had at least four daughters, who presumably were all mermaids, or at least avid shape-shifters like him and his grandfather Nereus: namely [Tritonis](http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheTritonis.html) (according to Apollonius Rhodius &amp; Hyginus), [Triteia](http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheTriteia.html) [or Tritaia] (according to Pausanias), [Kalliste](http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheKalliste.html) (according to Apollonius Rhodius) and [Pallas](http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NymphePallas.html) (according to Apollodorus). Their mother was probably Okeanos' daughter Libya, who had given to Africa its previous name. According to Atsma, most of the Tritones were similar in appearance to the first Triton &quot;but others were said to be monstrous creatures with red eyes, sea-green hair, vicious teeth and dolphin-tails.&quot; He further describes the Tritones as the attendants of the major sea-gods, which would include their ancestors Nereus and Poseidon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Spartan Triton][6]][6]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;In Greek and Italian mosaic the form that Triton takes is an interesting case which distinguishes him from other mermen in that he actually seems to have a literal *pair of legs*, except that each leg is a fish-tail. This corresponds surprisingly closely to the description of the Giants against whom the gods went to war. These creatures are also bipedal but their legs are snakes, which could provide an aquatic connection back to Ophion-Okeanos, their half-brother.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Poseidon, Glaükos, Palaimon and Proteus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Curiously, the only time that Poseidon ever seems to take on the form of a sea animal is in an obscure story mentioned by Ovid, who is building on a passing statement of Pausanias. The city of Delphi was reputedly named after a son of Apollon [Apollo] but in this version Poseidon somehow managed to seduce Melantho, daughter of Deukalion and Pyrrha, in the form of a dolphin. The child they have together is called Delphos, &quot;Dolphin,&quot; and after him the famous city receives its name. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Barring this, Poseidon is unique among all sea-gods, who each, with their hybrid shapes, seem to represent the changing nature of the sea. [Glaükos](http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Glaukos.html) [Glaücus] and Melikertes-[Palaimon](http://www.theoi.com/Gallery/Z34.4B.html) [Melicertes-Palaemon], when they became sea-gods, also basically turned into mermen. The snake-like form of the mermen's fish-tails suggests a fluidity of form which Poseidon perhaps counters with Olympian stability, with himself as the bridge between the sea and the rest of the cosmos. However, if the Melanthian Delphos story really is something to go by, perhaps there might have been ancient artistic depictions of Poseidon in mid transformation, with his upper half humanoid and the lower that of a dolphin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although he is never described as a merman, Poseidon's herdsman Proteus bears striking resemblance to Nereus, whose son-in-law he also is. Both of them are called the Old Man of the Sea, and Proteus prefers not to share his wisdom unless its seeker can out-wrestle him through an adrenaline-rush series of metamorphoses. It is not unlikely that Proteus looked like all the ichthyoid sea-gods, or at least, in nature and form, was like something in between Poseidon and Nereus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;{A few details *passim* are sourced from 2 answers I gave to 2 similar questions on Yahoo! Answers.}&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/7EuC0.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/HK010.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Ts0aA.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/dLMrd.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/SreFl.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/WjQAI.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7543" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1816" RevisionGUID="48fde9de-f044-4980-9327-c534b8b7aba8" CreationDate="2016-07-15T15:18:50.883" UserId="2682" Text="**Pan**, the Greek god of flocks and shepherds, is depicted holding a shepherd's crook.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Pan with Goat][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Pan with Goat, at British Museum&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Pan in Dionysos' Retinue][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Hoofed Pan from Roman sarcophagus depicting Dionysos' triumphal procession through India&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Gaeeus**, a minor Libyan sea-god who may have been a marine shepherd, also wields this implement. His name seems to mean &quot;Gaia's&quot; (*Of the Earth*).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Gaeeus &amp; Pherusa][3]][3]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Gaaeus (far left) with the Nereid Pherusa, in mosaic from Roman Antioch&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/OPCm6.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/3lOon.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/kaoR2.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7546" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1813" RevisionGUID="242a5cc5-8c63-4453-ac19-4d4dc26df579" CreationDate="2016-07-15T18:02:13.207" UserId="57" Comment="edited body" Text="There are many different accounts.  I don't believe a simple, conclusive &quot;it started with X heads&quot; is possible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    --------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Author         | # of heads     | Regeneration             |&#xD;&#xA;    ==============================================================&#xD;&#xA;    | Hesiod         | N/A            | N/A                      |&#xD;&#xA;    --------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Alcaeus        | 9              | N/A                      |&#xD;&#xA;    --------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Simonides      | 50             | N/A                      |&#xD;&#xA;    --------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Euripides      | Many           | Yes                      |&#xD;&#xA;    --------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Plato          | N/A            | Many for each severed    |&#xD;&#xA;    --------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Apollodorus    | 9              | 2 for each severed       |&#xD;&#xA;    --------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Pausanias      | 1              | No                       |&#xD;&#xA;    --------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Diodorus       | 100            | 2 for each severed       |&#xD;&#xA;    |   Siculus      |                |                          |&#xD;&#xA;    --------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Quintus        | Many           | &gt;1 for each severed      |&#xD;&#xA;    |   Smyrnaeus    |                |                          |&#xD;&#xA;    --------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Hyginus        | 9              | N/A                      |&#xD;&#xA;    --------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Ovid           | 100            | 2 for each severed       |&#xD;&#xA;    --------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Seneca         | Many           | N/A                      |&#xD;&#xA;    --------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Nonnus         | Many           | Yes                      |&#xD;&#xA;    --------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7547" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1398" RevisionGUID="cca2c313-c416-4d73-87ae-4863dc07ae36" CreationDate="2016-07-16T00:26:30.357" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="7550" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1817" RevisionGUID="70bca58a-7815-4acf-b023-941ac044eeac" CreationDate="2016-07-16T13:17:06.307" UserId="967" Text="So in Yannis' Awesome [Answer][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;It was looking directly into Medusa's eyes that would turn a mortal to stone, not the whole of her face. Using the shield as a mirror meant that even if Medusa's gaze fell upon Perseus, it would be at an angle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what if it was, say, a lens that turned it at a 180 degree turn? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/258/967" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7551" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1817" RevisionGUID="70bca58a-7815-4acf-b023-941ac044eeac" CreationDate="2016-07-16T13:17:06.307" UserId="967" Text="Could you look at Medusa's head through a distorted surface?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7552" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1817" RevisionGUID="70bca58a-7815-4acf-b023-941ac044eeac" CreationDate="2016-07-16T13:17:06.307" UserId="967" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7553" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1689" RevisionGUID="aee68c45-cb52-47b7-84e8-732c876d6f93" CreationDate="2016-07-16T20:56:16.053" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="7558" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1821" RevisionGUID="9962a578-2a0d-4c61-b3b9-937897c01d5d" CreationDate="2016-07-17T14:32:29.893" UserId="2789" Text="Valhalla:  home of the heros who did not yield, the valiant dead, Eitenjar the first into the fight when ragnarok begins. Folkvangr is where the other &quot;half&quot; goes.  This might just be a way of saying there are two types of people in battle.  Odin claims the ones who simply love battle for the sake of battle.  Where Freyja takes the ones who are done fighting.  This is shown in the fact that Freyja and those who go to Folkvangr do not participate in ragnarok but instead go to Alfheim.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7563" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1822" RevisionGUID="2d0bd20d-b89c-4844-8826-42839f8521de" CreationDate="2016-07-18T11:25:18.613" UserId="2682" Text="&lt;sub&gt;Argolis, E. Peloponnesos&lt;/sub&gt;   &#xD;&#xA;**TROIZENOS  &#xD;&#xA;Poseidon vs Athena &gt; 1 - 1**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the scramble for patronage over city territories, there's an occasion on which Zeus declared a draw between Poseidon and Athena when these two competed for Troizenos [Troezen]. According to Pausanias' [Description of Greece](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Paus.+2.30.6), by Leïs, the first princess of the city, Poseidon became the father of Althepos [Althepus], who became king when he grew up, naming the land Althepia. During Althepos' reign, his father Poseidon and his cousin Athena came to lay claims to the city and Zeus declared it theirs in common so that Poseidon was honoured as Basileus, &quot;King,&quot; and Athena under the names Polias, &quot;Urban,&quot; and Sthenias, &quot;Mighty.&quot; It was a few generations later that the city's name was changed to Troizenos. &quot;Moreover,&quot; says Pausanias, &quot;their old coins depict a trident and a face of Athena.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;[![Troizenian Coin with Head of Athena + Trident][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[2 chapters later](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Paus.+2.32.8) in the same travelogue, however, Pausanias mentions the origin of another of Poseidon's local cult titles. &quot;Being wroth with them [the citizens], Poseidon smote the land with barrenness, *halmē* [brine] reaching the seeds and the roots of the *phyta* [plants], until, appeased by sacrifices and prayers, he ceased to send up the *halmē* upon the earth.&quot; And hence he was called Phytalmios, &quot;Nurturer.&quot; The reason for the god's anger is not mentioned but it's not impossible that he received poorly the requirement to share honour with his niece in yet another polis. At any rate Poseidon did in fact become a much more important deity at Troizenos than Athena. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I take the term *Olympian* to denote any of the major gods of the mainstream Hellenic religion, which includes Helios, the Sun, and the wine-god Dionysos [Dionysus]. The latter in particular eventually came to actually live on Mt Olympos [Olympus] and, according to Diodorus Siculus' *Bibliotheka Historika* 4.15.1, officially bore the title Olympios, &quot;Olympian.&quot; If, on the other hand, you are restricting the term to only the original list of the Twelve Great Gods, then what follows might not be much help.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;W. Isthmos, Between Peloponnesos &amp; Boiotia&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;**KORINTHOS  &#xD;&#xA;Poseidon vs Helios &gt; 1 - 1** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the same genre and story series of Major City Scramble Among the Gods, Poseidon contested with his cousin Helios for possession of Korinthos [Corinth]. Pausanias relates this event [at the beginning of the same book](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Paus.+2.1.6) of the travelogue in which he later narrates the Poseidon-vs-Athena disputes over Kekropia-Athens and Althepia-Troizenos.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;According to what the Korinthoi [Corinthians] told Pausanias, the Hundred-Handed Giant Briareus (perhaps having been delegated the assignment by Zeus) adjudicated between the Sea-King and the Sun, giving the Isthmos [Isthmus] to the former and the Akrokorinthos (the height above the city) to the latter. That account makes it sound like an amiable resolution to a mild tiff about office stationery, but in Nonnus' *Dionysiaka*, an extremely dramatic rendition of the story is narrated by Poseidon himself at the beginning of a tumultuously epic battle between him and his nephew Dionysos. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Isthmos Korinthios][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a bid to discourage the new wine-god before the fighting begins, Poseidon's allusion to his contest with Helios fails to mention any third-party arbitration. Perhaps, however, we are to understand that the quarrel regarding which Briareus issued judgement was a bodily ἀγών [*agon*], i.e. hand-to-hand combat as opposed to a test of rhetoric, so that he is more of a ringside referee than a courtroom magistrate. And, if we are to believe the Sea-King, going by the amount of violence that ensues in his narration, they may well have needed such a gigantic referee. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Heaven,&quot; Poseidon says to Dionysos, &quot;still trembles at my spear of the deep, Heaven knows what a battle with the Sea is like.&quot; He goes on to claim that the Sun felt the point of the sea-god's Trident, and that the Sea rose so high it even went into Αἰθέρος (*Aether*, the clear, bright air above the clouds), bathing the flaming sun-chariot in its waters even as the Titan charioteer was going about his daily journey across the sky. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Canis, the Dog-constellation associated with an especially hot season, &quot;found salt water close by to bathe in and cooled its hot chin. The deep &#xD;&#xA;bottom of the waters was uplifted in towering waves, and the dolphin of the Sea met the Dolphin of the Sky [the constellation Delphinos, &quot;Dolphin&quot;] amid the lashing surges!&quot; Perhaps at this point Briareus perceived that things had gotten way out of hand and decided to call it a draw between the two opponents.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#BERYTOS &lt;sub&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Important Seaport of Lebanon&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;    &#xD;&#xA;###POSEIDON Vs DIONYSOS &gt; 1 - Nil    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A very similar turn of events occurs in the dispute between Poseidon and Dionysos but the effect is unique in Poseidon's experience and is rather curious for the piece of literature in which it is found. The battle which ensues between their two armies is by far the most violent action sequence between two groups of deities in this mythology since the Titan's War. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Over the course of three episodes (Books 41-43 of the epic), Nonnus is essentially allegorising the story of how Berytos [Berytus], now Lebanon's capital city Beirut, became the principal polis of Roman Phoenicia. In like manner to Poseidon's popularity contests with Hera, Athena and Helios, the King of the Sea clashes with his nephew over ownership of this Near Eastern centre of imperial influence. In this instance, though, the city has been personified as Beroe, a daughter of Okeanos who occurs as a minor character in Virgil's *Georgics*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***A Primaeval City and a Newer Version of Itself***  &#xD;&#xA;The *Dionysiaka* presents a pair of diverging origin stories for this character, both connected with the goddess Aphrodite, who is Beroe's mother in the second story. The goddess orchestrates the disagreement between the two gods in order to bring her daughter, and thus the city of Berytos, to prominence. (Nonnus might here be borrowing the idea that Zeus masterminded the Trojan War in order to bring fame to his daughter Helen.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the first story, which is cosmic in scale, Beroe is an Oceanid and her uncle the Titan-King Kronos is the first person to ever build a city, which happens to be none other than the magnificent Berytos. It is implied that Zeus was born here, or at least that the stone which Kronos swallowed instead of his son was served to the Titan while Kronos was enthroned here. In this context Nonnus reports that the famous tradition about Aphrodite having first made landfall on Cyprus Island is really a lie, because she actually first touched *terra firma* at this most ancient Lebanese port, a few days east of Cyprus (41.66-118).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Beirut][3]][3]  &#xD;&#xA;The *Dionysiaka*'s interest, however, eventually shifts and settles upon the second story, which makes Beroe (and thus Berytos) much younger, as the alluring mortal daughter of Aphrodite by the Assyrian prince Adonis. The story is thus framed, rather than a fight for territorial acreage, as a romantic fantasy action drama featuring a contest about who will become Beroe's bridegroom. Nonnus does, however, `completely spoil the ending` by starting off with a declaration of who gets the girl, which information is supplied to the audience even before the rival suitors seem to be aware that the young woman exists. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Beroe grows up in Book 41, Zeus sees her and is charmed with reminiscences of another beautiful Asian princess, namely Europa, whom he long before then abducted after assuming the form of a bull which was eventually placed in the sky as the constellation Tauros [Taurus]. The king of the gods fantasises about reenacting the abduction the same way, in bull form, but Tauros senses this and bellows aloud his displeasure at the potential of eventually being rivalled by a second bull-constellation in the sky. So Zeus &quot;left Beroe, who was destined for a watery bridal, as his brother's bedfellow, for he wished not to quarrel with Ennosigaios ['Earth-Shaker,' *an epithet of Poseidon*] about an earthbound wife.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Making a Love Triangle***  &#xD;&#xA;At the end of Book 41, Aphrodite charges her son Eros to inflame both Poseidon and Dionysos with passion for Beroe, which command Eros obeys at the beginning of the next book. The two impassioned gods each then attempt to woo Eros's young half-sister and they present their cases in terms of what magnificent dowry they have at their disposal. Aphrodite claims that she wishes she could grant both gods the honour of being Beroe's husband but since this would be unlawful, her solution is that they must duke it out in combat against each other, winner take all. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She, however, causes them to swear &quot;by Kronides [Zeus] and Gaia, by Aither [Aether] and the floods of Styx&quot; that the loser will not lay waste to Berytos, whether by earthquake in Poseidon's case or by destruction of vineyards on the part of Dionysos. The three Fates themselves witness this most solemn oath, upon which each god promises not only to be at peace with the city but also to directly participate in its beautification and to grant it prosperity. With that admin out of the way, Zeus himself descends from Mt Olympos together with all its divine inhabitants in order to watch the *agon* between the older god and the younger one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Book 42 then concludes with `a second spoiler about who's going to win`, when there &quot;appeared a great omen for love-stricken &#xD;&#xA;Dionysos.&quot; A falcon was pursuing a pigeon when suddenly a *haliaïetos*, &quot;sea eagle&quot; (called an *osprey* or *fish-hawk* in English), snapped the pigeon up off the ground and flew, with it in its talons' grasp, towards the depths of the sea. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When Dionysos beheld this, he cast away hope of victory. Nevertheless&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he entered the fray. Kronion the Father [*i.e. Zeus*] was pleased with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the contest of these two, as he watched from on high the match between&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his brother and his son with smiling eye. `42.539-542`&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Mayhem!***  &#xD;&#xA;Now in spite of the discouraging omen, and the narrator's remark about Dionysos practically throwing in the towel before the action begins, the two relatives start out Book 43 with a spirited rap battle, complete with pre-rugby-match-style psych-out war-dancing, before their armies descend upon each other with no holds barred.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All the sea deities, and most freshwater ones, side with Poseidon. Dionysos, who has just conquered the Indians, together with them among his forces, also has elephants from their country, as well as bears, panthers and other wild beasts, and also Panēs [Pans], Seilenoi [Sileni] (some of whom are riding horned bulls) and Satyrs. Troops of women augment the wine-god's regiments too: the Mainades, Bakkhantes, Mimallones and Bassaridai, together with a number of nymphs. The opposing forces rip up the countryside and hurl huge rocks and even entire cliff-sides at each other. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In 43.337-340 one of Poseidon's sea-lions is attacked by a strange phenomenon: an elephant which is described as *hypsinephēs*, &quot;as high as a cloud.&quot; I can think of only two ways of interpreting this: either the elephant can fly or it is so big it is quite literally a skyscraper (which would be gigantic even in comparison to J.R.R. Tolkien's Oliphaunts)! Either way, with that sort of clout, the battle should be over, but as though that's not enough, one thing happens to turn the tide to its tipping point.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Oliphaunt][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the Bassaridai, in a Dionysian frenzy, charges onto the sea and begins to dance, stamping her feet against the water's surface, and *not sinking* while she does so. Fire then blazes forth from her hair, directed at the sea and its inhabitants. Horrified and bewildered at this, the Nereid Psamathe launches into a lamentation prayer to Zeus, detailing her fear that Dionysos will kill the sea-god Glaukos and enslave her father Nereus, her sister Thetis, and even his own aunt Leukothea. Psamathe begs Zeus to spare the sea-deities the madness of Dionysos. Surprisingly, and very anticlimactically, Zeus immediately complies, hurling thunderbolts all around Dionysos to indicate to him that it's `Game Over...|` just when it seems like the younger god is going to win!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Immediately following this is the wedding of Beroe to Poseidon, celebrated in the sea, with the river-gods bringing many gifts. Dejectedly, Dionysos sulks his way through the nuptials until Eros comes to persuade him that other prospects await him on dry land. Taking heart, the young wine-god leaves, heading for his mother's home city.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Some conclusions to which one might perhaps reasonably arrive***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Zeus sides with Poseidon against his own favourite son, the same one whom the very epic is named after! It's additionally a big deal because this version of Dionysos is a reincarnation of [Zagreus](http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/Zagreus.html), an ancient, beautifully monstrous, shape-shifting baby son of Zeus. Back in Book 6, the king of the gods loves Zagreus so dearly that he arms the baby god with his thunderbolts and even sets him on his own throne, indicating his desire to abdicate in the child's favour. Zagreus is, however, slain violently, and that's a whole other story. (On a later occasion, in a vengeance campaign against the city of Pylos, more characteristically, Zeus sides with another favourite son of his, Herakles, *against* Poseidon.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. In the battle for Beroe, Dionysos seems to have the upper hand against Poseidon when Zeus pulls rank on his son, rendering the Sea-King's victory a T.K.O. Nonetheless, unlike Briareus' ruling regarding Korinthos, or the decision about Troizenos, this one is *not* a draw at all. Poseidon has unequivocally won the day.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. It is a double victory: Poseidon acquires not only exclusive rights to a coastal city (finally) but also a well-desired bride.            &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/PB6RX.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/hYHLk.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/BIl6K.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/qTWvz.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7564" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="868" RevisionGUID="08976b19-0a2b-4ba6-ac11-49d2484b5a69" CreationDate="2016-07-18T12:38:41.893" UserId="24" Comment="Moderator edits article" Text="&lt;p&gt;Please &lt;a href=&quot;/search&quot;&gt;look around&lt;/a&gt; to see if your question has been asked before. It’s also OK to &lt;a href=&quot;/helpcenter/self-answer&quot;&gt;ask and answer your own question&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;&#xA;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;If your question is not specifically on-topic for $SiteName, it may be on topic for another Stack Exchange site. If no site currently exists that will accept your question, you may &lt;a href=&quot;http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq&quot;&gt;commit to&lt;/a&gt; or &lt;a href=&quot;http://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/76974/how-can-i-propose-a-new-site&quot;&gt;propose&lt;/a&gt; a new site at &lt;a href=&quot;http://area51.stackexchange.com/&quot;&gt;Area 51&lt;/a&gt;, the place where new Stack Exchange communities are democratically created.&lt;/p&gt;&#xA;&#xA;**What topics can I ask about here?**&#xA;&#xA;Mythology Stack Exchange is a Q&amp;A site for mythology enthusiasts and experts. You are encouraged to ask questions about:&#xA;&#xA;- Explaining the plot, character, setting or symbolism of a myth&#xA;- Historical or societal context of a myth&#xA;- Myth identification&#xA;- Translations of and primary sources for a myth&#xA; &#xA;**What qualifies as a &quot;myth&quot;?**&#xA;&#xA;- Traditional myths, i.e. stories of great cultural significance such as the labors of Hercules or King Arthur's exploits are on-topic&#xA;- Folklore is on-topic&#xA;- Stories from religious scripture are on-topic; the doctrines espoused by a religion are off-topic&#xA;- Myths that exist solely within a fictional work (e.g., Star Wars, Game of Thrones) are off-topic, though you may be able to ask about them on another site such as SciFi.SE&#xA; &#xA;**What mythology-related questions should I not ask here?**&#xA; &#xA;- Questions calling for a list of myths, deities, cultures, . . .: What are all the myths where X happens? How many cultures have a god for X?&#xA;- Scientific explanations: In this story X did Y, but is that really possible?&#xA;- Reading recommendations: I liked X, what should I read next?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7565" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="1388" RevisionGUID="59166f2c-7675-4e94-a858-0e1937c21bfb" CreationDate="2016-07-18T21:03:06.843" UserId="183" Comment="28" />
  <row Id="7566" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="201" RevisionGUID="b09578ab-4742-4484-bf59-5a21e1d76332" CreationDate="2016-07-18T21:03:32.607" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved fomatting." Text="It certainly seems that the Greek invasion of India led to the introduction of the first statues of the Buddha. The Greeks loved to make statues of their deities, but the early Buddhists did not. See this answer on Buddhism Stack Exchange: [Did the Buddha discourage antropomorphic representations of himself?](http://buddhism.stackexchange.com/questions/2515/did-the-buddha-discourage-antropomorphic-representations-of-himself)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Alexander himself certainly seemed interested in participating in all the local religions around which he was encountering:](http://www.academia.edu/5974580/When_the_Greeks_Converted_the_Buddha_Asymmetrical_Transfers_of_Knowledge_in_Indo-Greek_Cultures)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Alexander was unusually open to foreign religious influences and over the course of his lifetime he embraced many non-Greek deities and practices, sacrificing to the Egyptian gods while in Egypt and rebuilding the temple of the god Bel in Babylon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ultimately, it seems that the two cultures recognized the existence of the other as separate religions. There was enough cultural self awareness in this period in this part of the world for people to identify themselves as members of a particular religion, and ultimately to convert to another, such as the case of [Greek King Meander I](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menander_I), who converted to Buddhism in the second century BCE. There is a Buddhist text, the [Milinda Panha](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milinda_Panha), which is philosophical discussions between King Meander and a Buddhist monk Nagasena. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, ultimately, because of the self identification as distinct religions / traditions, *there appears to be little **narrative** crossover in this period*, as much as there were cultural crossover recognized in things like currency (see the Meander article again), art, and [morality, e.g.](http://www.academia.edu/5974580/When_the_Greeks_Converted_the_Buddha_Asymmetrical_Transfers_of_Knowledge_in_Indo-Greek_Cultures):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In order to propagate rules based on morality, equality and righteousness (Pāli dhamma; Skt. dharma), he employed several official languages and scripts derived from Aramaic, namely Brāhmī and Kharoṣṭhī, and also used Greek and Aramaic in public inscriptions carved on polished rock or stone. His pragmatism was likely to have been inspired by the Buddhists  who propagated their teachings in the languages spoken in different regions. In what may have been the earliest of these inscriptions issued in 258 B.C.E. Aśoka declares himself to have been a lay Buddhist disciple for more than two and a half years, and by the eighth year of his reign he publicly expresses remorse for the massacre in Kaliṇga and denounces the taking of lives." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7567" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="201" RevisionGUID="b09578ab-4742-4484-bf59-5a21e1d76332" CreationDate="2016-07-18T21:03:32.607" Comment="Proposed by 1241 approved by 42, 183 edit id of 341" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7568" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1823" RevisionGUID="13511b63-9fe6-444a-a522-56fe0f5c9753" CreationDate="2016-07-18T22:01:23.633" UserId="2793" Text="the answer is both and depends on time and you can see evidence of that fashion in various other religions (eg. judaism in it's early form described god as a king who sits on his chair while it changed to more abstract entity) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;speaking specificly on the greeks&#xD;&#xA;we know for a fact that offerings were founded near it's peak from wikipedia:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  But surely they reached the nearest peak, nowadays called Aghios Antonios, from where they had a view of the two peaks and where they left offerings, as recent archaeological findings indicate&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Olympus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;i remember reading of some mythology book that in roman periods it was more of a concept but sadly i don't remember which book was it! I can assume and i believe that assumption is logical that in ancient times before grecko-roman philosophy was fully developed it was more of a physical location of the gods and i assume that the gods and their location changed to more abstraction when philosophy was developed. either way i don't know if there're solid proofs of the latter but one must ask himself, do a nation that explored the ancient world so much to the extent of reaching india (i refer to alexander's conquests) belived that it's the physical location at that point? think of it back then the ural mountains to certain cultures were &quot;the end of the world&quot; the greeks passed that as well so it's a very good question and i doubt my answer will suffice your needs" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7570" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1824" RevisionGUID="5d290cca-8ad4-4b6e-9776-8334c9fb7ecb" CreationDate="2016-07-19T01:34:11.423" UserId="1241" Text="&gt;The Hydra was a multi-headed monster--according to Diodorus (first century B.C.), it had a hundred heads; Simonides (sixth century B.C.) said it had fifty. The most common opinion, however, seems to be that it had **nine**. What made the Hydra so difficult was the fact that, whenever one of its heads was chopped off, two would grow in its place. Hercules managed to get around this rather major obstacle by having his nephew, Iolaus, cauterize each stump with a hot iron as soon as Hercules could chop off a head. The hero then buried the monster's immortal head beneath a rock. The task was made somewhat more difficult by Juno, who sent a crab to nip at the feet of Hercules while he battled the Hydra. - [Hydra][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Various authors have given us different numbers for how many heads Hydra had originally. The earliest known author Hesiod of the 8th or 7th B.C says only many heads.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Alcaeus  seems to be the first person to give us a number for how many heads Hydra originally had: **NINE**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Alcaeus][2], Fragment 443 (from Schoiast on Hesiod’s Theogony) (trans. Campbell, Vol. Greek Lyric II) (Greek lyric C6th B.C.) : “The Hydra is called nine ­headed by Alcaeus, fifty­ headed by Simonides.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;[Simonides][3], Fragment 569 (from Servius on Virgil’s Aeneid) (trans. Campbell, Vol. Greek Lyric II) (Greek lyric C6th to 5th B.C.) : “One hundred snakes as in Simonides, as we said above [he spoke of Simonides fifty­ headed Hydra]; others say there were nine.” - [Labors of Hercules: Second, to Thin the Lernaean Hydra][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Hydra ][5]][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  Black figure vase by the Eagle Painter, ca. 525 BCE, now in the Getty Museum (© 2008 Wolfgang Sauber via [Wikimedia Commons][6])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.comfychair.org/~cmbell/myth/hydra.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Alcaeus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.britannica.com/biography/Simonides-of-Ceos&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.labyrinthdesigners.org/alchemy-mythology/labors-of-hercules-second-to-thin-the-lernaean-hydra/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/sMNVD.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/the-lernean-hydra-and-the-octopus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7571" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1825" RevisionGUID="e2075d91-64fc-47a7-a678-686f523341fc" CreationDate="2016-07-19T10:37:17.190" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="I have recently came across Tu'er Shen, a Chinese deity who manages the love and sex between homosexual men. After reading about him, I am interested to find out if there are any homosexual gods(exclude the Greco-Roman gods),preferably those who married another homosexual god. However, I am not looking for gods who are in charge of homosexual love, like the Chinese god mentioned above, but I am looking for gods who are naturally homosexual, like Zeus, who took Ganydeme, a boy, as a lover. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7572" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1825" RevisionGUID="e2075d91-64fc-47a7-a678-686f523341fc" CreationDate="2016-07-19T10:37:17.190" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Are there any homosexual gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7573" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1825" RevisionGUID="e2075d91-64fc-47a7-a678-686f523341fc" CreationDate="2016-07-19T10:37:17.190" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7577" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1522" RevisionGUID="82fabdc9-f2b4-4e50-8cba-02300a1ee13d" CreationDate="2016-07-19T19:49:25.647" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved formatting and grammar." Text="I am no expert but I think that while some are geographical, most are based on pre-existing myths.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most Celtic faeries are linked to Greco-roman nature spirits and gods. For instance La Dame du Lac is probably a type of Naiad or Limnade. The Lares gave all domestic fae and other faeries. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Local legends, like La Bête de Gèvaudan, one of a kind monster in a specific area, was generalized into the lycanthropy desease and became international as the werewolf legend (though there are some possible mentions in Greco-Roman cultures). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia has a good site for nymphs. While they are female by definition, just think of them as genderless nature spirits and you have most faeries.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;:&#xD;&#xA;•	Land nymphs&#xD;&#xA;•	Alseides (glens, groves)&#xD;&#xA;•	Auloniades (pastures)&#xD;&#xA;•	Leimakides or Leimonides (meadows)&#xD;&#xA;•	Napaeae (mountain valleys, glens)&#xD;&#xA;•	Oreads (mountains, grottoes), also Orodemniades&#xD;&#xA;•	Wood and plant nymphs&#xD;&#xA;•	Anthousai (flowers)&#xD;&#xA;•	Dryades (trees)&#xD;&#xA;•	Hamadryades or Hadryades - [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nymph)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For instance for Welsh fae, you have:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;:&#xD;&#xA;1.	the ellyllon, or the elves;&#xD;&#xA;2.	the coblynau, or the mine fairies;&#xD;&#xA;3.	the bwbachod, or the household fairies;&#xD;&#xA;4.	the gwragedd annwn, or the fairies of the lakes and streams;&#xD;&#xA;5.	the gwyllion, or the mountain fairies. - [Celtic Mythology](http://www.timelessmyths.com/celtic/faeries.html)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can see a clear correlation between that and nymphs and Lares. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You mention banshee and pooka, they are linked to more specialized Lares, the Manes (Lares Di Inferi). For Manes see this Wikipedia [link.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manes)&#xD;&#xA;For Banshees I found in *The fairy-faith in Celtic countries*&#xD;&#xA;by Walter Yeeling Evans-Wentz:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;:&#xD;&#xA;M. A. Lefevre shows that the Roman Lares, so frequently compared to house-haunting fairies, are in reality quite like the Gaelic Banshee… - [Banshee Lares](https://books.google.co.ma/books?id=awR_U5Rs2ikC&amp;pg=PT729&amp;lpg=PT729&amp;dq=banshee+lares&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=ZioxW1klPJ&amp;sig=Gk9Rb2YcoEZ1ph-eQ7v3IlJldWE&amp;hl=fr&amp;sa=X&amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;q=banshee%20lares&amp;f=false)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although they are global, if you just want to give it the flavor of a specific culture, just use words used by that culture for various nature spirits. Most people know that Sluaghs are not likely to cohabit with Kitsunes and Efrits.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7578" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1522" RevisionGUID="82fabdc9-f2b4-4e50-8cba-02300a1ee13d" CreationDate="2016-07-19T19:49:25.647" Comment="Proposed by 1241 approved by 123 edit id of 343" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7580" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1827" RevisionGUID="9adb8c02-9485-4856-b7c6-6644487e8e69" CreationDate="2016-07-20T10:34:22.220" UserId="2739" Text="I believe [this link][1] will be of interest to you. It seems that there are actually very few belief systems / mythologies that DON'T include some form of homosexuality, especially across Asia. Norse and Celtic stories don't make any mention of it, but they don't have any problems with it, as far as I know.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_themes_in_mythology#Critical_perspective" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7581" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1813" RevisionGUID="13289c8a-1cb1-44ce-9cc2-ef6ecb382fea" CreationDate="2016-07-20T17:19:44.240" UserId="42" Comment="S'pose adding these into the answer makes sense." Text="There are many different accounts.  I don't believe a simple, conclusive &quot;it started with X heads&quot; is possible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Author       | Source         | # of heads    | Regeneration             |&#xD;&#xA;    ============================================================================&#xD;&#xA;    | Hesiod       | Theogony       | N/A           | N/A                      |&#xD;&#xA;    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Alcaeus      | scholiast on   | 9             | N/A                      |&#xD;&#xA;    |              | Theogony       |               |                          |&#xD;&#xA;    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Simonides    | scholiast on   | 50            | N/A                      |&#xD;&#xA;    |              | Theogony       |               |                          |&#xD;&#xA;    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Euripides    | Herakles       | Many          | Yes                      |&#xD;&#xA;    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Plato        | Euthydemas     | N/A           | Many for each severed    |&#xD;&#xA;    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Apollodorus  | Library        | 9             | 2 for each severed       |&#xD;&#xA;    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Pausanias    | Description    | 1             | No                       |&#xD;&#xA;    |              | of Greece      |               |                          |&#xD;&#xA;    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Diodorus     | Library of     | 100           | 2 for each severed       |&#xD;&#xA;    |   Siculus    | History        |               |                          |&#xD;&#xA;    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Quintus      | Fall of Troy   | Many          | &gt;1 for each severed      |&#xD;&#xA;    |   Smyrnaeus  |                |               |                          |&#xD;&#xA;    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Hyginus      | Fabulae        | 9             | N/A                      |&#xD;&#xA;    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Ovid         | Metamorphoses  | 100           | 2 for each severed       |&#xD;&#xA;    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Seneca       | Hercules       | Many          | N/A                      |&#xD;&#xA;    |              | Furens         |               |                          |&#xD;&#xA;    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;    | Nonnus       | Dionysiaca     | Many          | Yes                      |&#xD;&#xA;    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7582" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1828" RevisionGUID="32fabc2f-47a7-414a-95a7-55dfad125d21" CreationDate="2016-07-21T07:48:15.813" UserId="2774" Text="It is difficult to find pure depiction of homosexuality. But hints and such there is. The Epic of Gilgamesh clearly illustrates that. The relationship between Enkidu and Gilgamesh if never clearly stating homosexuality makes you wonder a lot, from their first fight, when they roll on the ground intertwined, up to Enkidu's death and following Gilgamesh's mourning...&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now concerning God's and such, you have some of those clear hints in Egyptians Khnumhotep and Niankhkhnu. Just take a look at their portrait in their burial chamber... That is how even today either close buddies or lovers are holding. And speaking about Egypt you have one version of their Myth where Horus and Osiris have sex on the throne of Isis... You have also such a fight between Horus and Seth where they exchange semen a lot.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now in Greece... Take a look at the Illiad. Achilles is skulking all the song uptil his friend Patrocle is killed.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;You have Roman God Antinous (which was a favourite of Hadrian turned into a God) which is there totally Homosexual.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In India you can find god Aravan. Still today they held ceremony to him where men are crossdressing.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In celt myth you find another &quot;Gilgamesh-Enkidu&quot; relationship with Cuchulainn and Ferdiad. Factually Cuchulainn is killing Ferdiad by using his spear on Ferdiad's ass... ... (Very similar to let's say Baldr's death or Achilles' death, but way more explicit on one or two things)&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;I don't know true example in Norse myth but, they are late enough. You find at least on example of Thor crossdressing with another bisexual figure Loki.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In China myth you find some spirits called Xian which are spirit animals generally male loving males human beings (aka men). you have such a story in the myth The Farmer and the Dragon where the dragon is falling in love with and old farmer.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In Japan you have one myth where the sun goddess Amateratsu is hiding in a cave and the goddess Ame is doing a strip tease to lure her out.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;You have such a strip tease example when Babylonian/Sumerian Goddess Ishtar/Innana visits the queen of Hel Ereshkigal and removes one part of her garment at each door (strip tease) finally standing naked and powerless in front of the Queen.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Contrary to let's say rape, homosexuality is rarely depicted as clearly. but reading between the line there is everywhere. I am far from being versed enough in other's myth to say more. But I am aware of the god Chin of the Mayan culture which is another example of a God encouraging relationship between young men. I remind one of those carved wall where you have two men kissing. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7585" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1830" RevisionGUID="3ae2ff06-29a0-43a8-8bc5-7438a0b2ed4f" CreationDate="2016-07-22T08:16:13.070" UserId="2774" Text="So to answer this, the first thing I can remind you is... Gremlins 2, just listen when then are punning about the rules concerning the Mogwai... same here XD.&lt;BR&gt; &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now by itself, we find the first depiction of Medusa in the Iliad. Here is the passage with Robert Fagles translation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Over Athena's shoulders slung her shield, all tassels flaring&#xD;&#xA;&gt; terror—Panic mounted high in a crown around it, Hate and Defense&#xD;&#xA;&gt; across it, Assault to freeze the blood and right in their midst the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gorgon's monstrous head, that rippling dragon horror, sign of storming&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Agamemnon's shield: Circling the center, ten strong rings of bronze&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with twenty disks of glittering tin set in, at the heart a boss of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bulging blue steel and there like a crown the Gorgon's grim mask—the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; burning eyes, the stark transfixing horror—and round her strode the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shapes of Rout and Fear.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So at the origin we find her only on a shield. She takes some shape in the Odyssey becoming a servant of Persephone:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The dead came surging round me, [...] and blanching terror gripped&#xD;&#xA;&gt; me—panicked now that Queen Persephone might send up from Death some&#xD;&#xA;&gt; monstrous head, some Gorgon's staring face!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice she is striking fear and paralyze people, even simply on a shield.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later the main source we have is in the Apollodorus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now Medusa alone was mortal; for that reason Perseus was sent to fetch&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her head. But the Gorgons had heads twined about with the scales of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dragons, and great tusks like swine's, and brazen hands, and golden&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wings, by which they flew; and they turned to stone such as beheld&#xD;&#xA;&gt; them. So Perseus stood over them as they slept, and while Athena&#xD;&#xA;&gt; guided his hand and he looked with averted gaze on a brazen shield, in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which he beheld the image of the Gorgon, he beheaded her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice here the presence of a `brazen shield` in Perseus' hand. As well as the overall monstrous aspect of the Gorgons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now you have later Roman author Ovid, and here is the passage in the Metamorphoses:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the fields and along the paths, here and there, he saw the shapes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of men and animals changed from their natures to hard stone by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Medusa’s gaze. Nevertheless he had himself looked at the dread form of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Medusa reflected in a circular shield of polished bronze that he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; carried on his left arm. And while a deep sleep held the snakes and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; herself, he struck her head from her neck.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So Homer, Hesiod and Ovid all are saying the same: No one can bear the sight of Medusa. Even Ovid who is clearly mentioning the fact the creatures has been turned to stone by Medusa's gaze still has Perseus approaching her with his shield raised while she is sleeping.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note also Ovid does not give Medusa's lots of monstrous feature:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They say that Neptune [Poseidon], lord of the seas, violated her in the temple of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Minerva [Athena]. Jupiter’s daughter turned away, and hid her chaste eyes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; behind her aegis. So that it might not go unpunished, she changed the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gorgon’s hair to foul snakes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See only the hairs here are turned into vicious snakes. Notice also most of the back story we know are from here. When the monstrous aspects are more present in Hesiod (and mostly Ray Harryhaussen good old Clash of the Titans).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So you know:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Medusa has always been associated with shield&#xD;&#xA; 2. She is an incarnation of Terror (which pretrify you)&#xD;&#xA; 3. Here gaze turn you into stone (cf. point 2)&#xD;&#xA; 4. She is so terrifying that even when she is sleeping you cannot stare at her&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So factually Perseus does not wear a shield to not see her gaze (she is sleeping) but because even watching her sleeping form is way too much (cf Hesiod and Ovid). That is how terrifying Medusa is." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7586" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1831" RevisionGUID="4e826790-d6de-4d45-9b11-5dd9d15c706f" CreationDate="2016-07-22T16:11:12.463" UserId="721" Text="What cultures, if any (besides Ancient Egypt), believe(d) that the stars are other worlds/lands/islands?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7587" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1831" RevisionGUID="4e826790-d6de-4d45-9b11-5dd9d15c706f" CreationDate="2016-07-22T16:11:12.463" UserId="721" Text="What cultures believe(d) that the stars are other worlds/places?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7588" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1831" RevisionGUID="4e826790-d6de-4d45-9b11-5dd9d15c706f" CreationDate="2016-07-22T16:11:12.463" UserId="721" Text="|stars|other|worlds|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7589" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1832" RevisionGUID="19ffab9c-3812-4cbf-8c64-d1dc0a328c9f" CreationDate="2016-07-22T16:17:22.873" UserId="721" Text="Or shall I say, what are some beliefs on how wendigos/witigos/chenoos (any cannibal ice giant type being from Native American folklore) are defeated? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7590" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1832" RevisionGUID="19ffab9c-3812-4cbf-8c64-d1dc0a328c9f" CreationDate="2016-07-22T16:17:22.873" UserId="721" Text="How are wendigos/similar defeated?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7591" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1832" RevisionGUID="19ffab9c-3812-4cbf-8c64-d1dc0a328c9f" CreationDate="2016-07-22T16:17:22.873" UserId="721" Text="|wendigo|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7592" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1810" RevisionGUID="34a1498b-f491-409a-98f7-0b3f4e5d1187" CreationDate="2016-07-22T19:49:55.937" UserId="53" Comment="added 74 characters in body" Text="For questions regarding the Ancient Greek gods who lived on Mount Olympus." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7593" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1810" RevisionGUID="34a1498b-f491-409a-98f7-0b3f4e5d1187" CreationDate="2016-07-22T19:49:55.937" Comment="Proposed by 53 approved by 967, 183 edit id of 340" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7594" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1833" RevisionGUID="f548bd1c-6866-4c67-a132-faee6197ff2a" CreationDate="2016-07-22T20:27:46.087" UserId="2803" Text="Pretty much what it says on the can. I was wondering if there where any mythical creatures or &quot;folk&quot; (little people, Huldufolk, etc) associated with bells, or the sound of bells.&#xA;&#xA;Thank-you in advance to anyone who takes the time out of their day to answer my curiosity." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7595" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1833" RevisionGUID="f548bd1c-6866-4c67-a132-faee6197ff2a" CreationDate="2016-07-22T20:27:46.087" UserId="2803" Text="Mythical Creatures associated with Bells" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7596" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1833" RevisionGUID="f548bd1c-6866-4c67-a132-faee6197ff2a" CreationDate="2016-07-22T20:27:46.087" UserId="2803" Text="|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7599" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1834" RevisionGUID="3edbc886-ab77-4c93-8322-4635ac1c8448" CreationDate="2016-07-24T00:56:41.453" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="I am currently very interested in Sumerian mythology and would like to find out more about it. However, I am finding it very hard to keep track of the gods lineage and parentage as well as their descendants.To keep track of them I would like to have a family tree of them. Do you know where I can find a family tree of these gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7600" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1834" RevisionGUID="3edbc886-ab77-4c93-8322-4635ac1c8448" CreationDate="2016-07-24T00:56:41.453" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="What is the family tree of the Sumerian gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7601" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1834" RevisionGUID="3edbc886-ab77-4c93-8322-4635ac1c8448" CreationDate="2016-07-24T00:56:41.453" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="|gods|sumerian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7602" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1835" RevisionGUID="6789ff86-eda0-4e8d-9a8e-67b5f16831bb" CreationDate="2016-07-24T01:02:50.143" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Most of the time, the term &quot;demigod&quot; is used to describe people who are the offspring of a god and a human. As far as I know, Gilgamesh is the child of a goddess and a king. Why then is Gilgamesh considered to be one-third human and two-third god when he is the offspring of a god(dess) and a human? Is there a story behind this, one that's about his conception?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7603" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1835" RevisionGUID="6789ff86-eda0-4e8d-9a8e-67b5f16831bb" CreationDate="2016-07-24T01:02:50.143" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Why is Gilgamesh considered to be one-third human and two-third god?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7604" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1835" RevisionGUID="6789ff86-eda0-4e8d-9a8e-67b5f16831bb" CreationDate="2016-07-24T01:02:50.143" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="|gods|sumerian|gilgamesh|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7605" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1836" RevisionGUID="fba69ac7-3098-4967-9ff7-2e19dbf07d06" CreationDate="2016-07-24T01:12:59.200" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="The Tuatha Dé Danann are the children of the goddess Danu. Their very name,  Tuatha Dé Danann, means &quot;the people of Danu&quot;. However, who is their father?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7606" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1836" RevisionGUID="fba69ac7-3098-4967-9ff7-2e19dbf07d06" CreationDate="2016-07-24T01:12:59.200" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Who is the father of the Tuatha Dé Danann?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7607" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1836" RevisionGUID="fba69ac7-3098-4967-9ff7-2e19dbf07d06" CreationDate="2016-07-24T01:12:59.200" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="|gods|celtic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7610" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1838" RevisionGUID="19dbc05e-aab9-4073-abe9-bc5dace0f36b" CreationDate="2016-07-24T09:10:53.280" UserId="2774" Text="Gilgamesh was a recurring character in Mesopotamiam mythes/stories. The most reknown of those stories is the Epic of Gilgamesh where those numbers appears. But he and his slave/servant/friend/buddy/lover Enkidu are in numerous other stories. And in none other those funny proportions are mentionned.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;It is also good to be aware that the Epic comes to us in various versions. There is no (right now) any complete version of the myth per se. It is just a reconstruction from different tablets. &lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now the Epic does not give any rational explanation about the proportion. Just remind it is barely a detail trying to make clear Gilgamesh is far beyond any normal human being. As long as it is striking you enough as being &quot;totally abnormal&quot; the one who wrotes that did succeed." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7613" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1840" RevisionGUID="f6344055-2fa4-4ae8-8d96-946edf3899c6" CreationDate="2016-07-26T00:02:09.763" UserId="1317" Text="There is this reference in [Wikipedia][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Tuatha Dé Danann were descended from ***[Nemed][2]***, leader of a previous wave of inhabitants of Ireland.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Nemedians were washed off of Ireland by a tidal wave; some of the survivors came back and replaced the Fir Bolg who had settled Ireland after the disaster.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuatha_Dé_Danann&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[2]:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemed" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7614" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1840" RevisionGUID="d3ae0635-719b-46d1-9b10-a6cd90c7f484" CreationDate="2016-07-26T00:37:55.690" UserId="1317" Comment="added 95 characters in body" Text="There is this reference in [Wikipedia][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Tuatha Dé Danann were descended from ***[Nemed][2]***, leader of a previous wave of inhabitants of Ireland.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Referencing _[Lebor Gabála Érenn][3]_, The Nemedians were washed off of Ireland by a tidal wave; some of the survivors came back and replaced the Fir Bolg who had settled Ireland after the disaster.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuatha_Dé_Danann&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[2]:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemed&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[3]:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebor_Gabála_Érenn" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7615" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1841" RevisionGUID="ea998439-5fa0-4cd7-aa9b-3087c1d51a0b" CreationDate="2016-07-26T13:32:06.960" UserId="2774" Text="If what you want is a family tree &quot;per se&quot;, you can find a good dozen of them for free on the internet via your old pal Google. Here is a very solid one: [![http://www.truthcontrol.com/files/truthcontrol/images/7024.png][1]][1] &lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now... if you need some sources.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;First imagine that anything centered on old Mesopotamia is vastly partially known, cause it is OLD, terribly OLD, and what is written, was written on tablets most of them quite broken, or not so readable. And a lot of what we know of the Sumerian people is coming from the Babylonian or even later Hittites... if not in the Holy Bible!&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The definitive Sumerian source is Samuel Noah Kramer, the best myth introduction is that book: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    Sumerian Mythology: &#xD;&#xA;    Study of Spiritual and Literary Achievement in the Third Millennium B.C.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can also check:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    The Sumerians, their history, cultures and character&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is there a lot of fairly solid translations of major mythes/stories, as well as a great introduction to the Sumerian culture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A fairly good (but ridiculously over priced) book:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    William W. Hallo, The World’s Oldest Literature : &#xD;&#xA;    Studies in Sumerian Belles-Lettres&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now we are in 2016, and there is the Internet. Here is the best source I am aware of for Sumerian things: http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/ TONS of good material, with decent translations, lots of texts, poetries, songs. REALLY a great source. Really less expensive that Hallo's book...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MrDMX.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7616" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1825" RevisionGUID="e0b121f4-8c32-49bb-bab8-7712cd989a1b" CreationDate="2016-07-26T19:07:35.173" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7617" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1832" RevisionGUID="512b80b9-469b-4b69-ba59-70ce37383478" CreationDate="2016-07-26T19:08:14.380" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="|native-american|wendigo|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7618" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1840" RevisionGUID="b85add82-bf08-49a9-ad89-ca002813e361" CreationDate="2016-07-26T23:18:20.753" UserId="1317" Comment="added 143 characters in body" Text="There is this reference in [Wikipedia][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Tuatha Dé Danann were descended from ***[Nemed][2]***, leader of a previous wave of inhabitants of Ireland.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Referencing _[Lebor Gabála Érenn][3]_, The Nemedians were washed off of Ireland by a tidal wave; some of the survivors came back and replaced the Fir Bolg who had settled Ireland after the disaster.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The pleasant Tuatha De Danann brought spears with them in their hands: With them Eochu was slain, by the seed of Nemed of strong judgement.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuatha_Dé_Danann&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[2]:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemed&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[3]:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebor_Gabála_Érenn" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7619" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1842" RevisionGUID="7451494b-26ca-4c3e-934a-ea687e22a45e" CreationDate="2016-07-27T22:55:57.013" UserId="292" Text="Yannis is right - nowhere does it say that the Tuatha de Danann had a father, and the name itself should be a clue that there wasn't one. The way it emphasizes a mother suggests that the tuath had no father or an absent one. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7621" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1840" RevisionGUID="3892db7a-20d2-422c-9920-13cb2961016f" CreationDate="2016-07-28T01:27:23.413" UserId="1317" Comment="added 339 characters in body" Text="There is this reference in [Wikipedia][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Tuatha Dé Danann were descended from ***[Nemed][2]***, leader of a previous wave of inhabitants of Ireland.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The somewhat disjoint genealogies in _[Lebor Gabála Érenn][3]_ (also [here][4]) can be pieced together to show&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nemed -&gt; Iarbonel -&gt; Bethach -&gt; Ibath -&gt; Baath&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Nemedians were washed off of Ireland by a tidal wave raised by the Fomorians; some of the survivors&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Ibath and his son Baath went into the north of the world&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Well after the disaster the Fir Bolg resettled Ireland. But then the Tuatha De Danann returned from the north and at the first battle of Mag Tuired&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The pleasant Tuatha De Danann brought spears with them in their hands: With them Eochu was slain, by the seed of Nemed of strong judgement.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuatha_Dé_Danann&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[2]:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemed&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[3]:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebor_Gabála_Érenn&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[4]: http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/lebor3.html#45" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7622" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1840" RevisionGUID="58e04f99-2e4a-4ee4-b73b-e3643b0bcbc3" CreationDate="2016-07-28T01:44:27.603" UserId="1317" Comment="added 443 characters in body" Text="There is this reference in [Wikipedia][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Tuatha Dé Danann were descended from ***[Nemed][2]***, leader of a previous wave of inhabitants of Ireland.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The somewhat disjoint genealogies in _[Lebor Gabála Érenn][3]_ (also [here][4]) can be pieced together to show&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nemed -&gt; Iarbonel -&gt; Bethach -&gt; Ibath -&gt; Baath&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Nemedians were washed off of Ireland by a tidal wave raised by the Fomorians; some of the survivors&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Ibath and his son Baath went into the north of the world&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Baath -&gt; Enda -&gt; Tavarn -&gt; Tat-&gt; Aldui -&gt; Ordam -&gt; Etarlam -&gt; Echtach -&gt;&#xD;&#xA; Nuadu Airgetlam&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Well after the disaster the Fir Bolg resettled Ireland. But then the Tuatha De Danann returned from the north and at the first battle of Mag Tuired&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The pleasant Tuatha De Danann brought spears with them in their hands: With them Eochu was slain, by the seed of Nemed of strong judgement.&#xD;&#xA;Yet the Tuatha De Danann suffered great loss in the battle, and they left the king on the field, with his arm cut from him; the leeches were seven years healing him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Nuadu Airgetlam was king over the Tuatha De Danann for seven years before their coming into Ireland, until his arm was hewn from him in the first battle of Mag Tuired.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuatha_Dé_Danann&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[2]:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemed&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[3]:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebor_Gabála_Érenn&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[4]: http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/lebor3.html#45" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7623" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1843" RevisionGUID="039047c3-a3ee-40c1-893b-01b741473b5d" CreationDate="2016-07-28T16:52:44.263" UserId="967" Text="Long ago, people believed cats had 9 lives. (As shown in ice age)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When and where did that belief come from? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7624" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1843" RevisionGUID="039047c3-a3ee-40c1-893b-01b741473b5d" CreationDate="2016-07-28T16:52:44.263" UserId="967" Text="What is the folkloristic origin of cats having 9 lives?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7625" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1843" RevisionGUID="039047c3-a3ee-40c1-893b-01b741473b5d" CreationDate="2016-07-28T16:52:44.263" UserId="967" Text="|folklore|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7626" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1844" RevisionGUID="df1145e0-269e-499f-aea1-781e07b518de" CreationDate="2016-07-28T20:44:21.773" UserId="2773" Text="How did Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva come to replace Indra as the Chief of the Hindu pantheon? Was there a war (e.g. Titans vs Olympians)? Or were they consumed (e.g. Amun + Ra = Amun-Ra)? What changed and was the cause of the change in the Hindu mindset? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7627" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1844" RevisionGUID="df1145e0-269e-499f-aea1-781e07b518de" CreationDate="2016-07-28T20:44:21.773" UserId="2773" Text="How did the Trimurti come into power?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7628" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1844" RevisionGUID="df1145e0-269e-499f-aea1-781e07b518de" CreationDate="2016-07-28T20:44:21.773" UserId="2773" Text="|gods|hindu|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7630" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1618" RevisionGUID="6190f8ea-fd6e-4f4a-bddb-37850558c0f0" CreationDate="2016-07-30T05:45:30.227" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="7631" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1675" RevisionGUID="252620fd-1911-4386-a12a-1d5dcef18dac" CreationDate="2016-07-30T12:48:18.220" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="7632" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="479" RevisionGUID="77d2a1ad-339a-4fef-b81a-de62f7c78e82" CreationDate="2016-07-31T15:15:13.660" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="7635" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1845" RevisionGUID="fcbe6a3b-7a80-4f66-a29b-47462ec3d041" CreationDate="2016-08-01T04:35:40.697" UserId="1241" Text="It may not be possible to trace the exact origins of the phrase that a cat had nine lives. Nevertheless there are a few sources from which we can find a possible origin of cats having nine lives. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First of all, it may have an Egyptian (and thus the oldest believed) origin as the following statement reveals:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The old belief that a cat has nine lives goes back to ancient Egypt. The cat-headed goddess, Bast (or Ubasti), was associated with the benevolent aspect of Hathor, the Lioness, and was said to have nine lives. The Egyptians did not fear the cat, but rather reverenced it, and they elevated cats far above the role of domestic pet. To the Egyptians, the cat was transformed from mouse catcher to supreme deity, the &quot;Sayer of Great Words.&quot; The Egyptian word for cat was Mau, which is at once an imitation of the animal's call and the nearly universal human cry for mother. Cats came to be worshipped with such intensity that the wanton killing of a cat was punishable by death. -  [Encyclopedia of the Unusual and Unexplained: Superstitions, Strange Customs, Taboos, and Urban Legends.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The follow point could be taken into consideration here:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Nine is also a magic number- and this could be partly why cats are attributed with having nine lives, because they have been both worshipped and feared throughout the ages for being magical. The ancient Greeks said that the number nine referred to the trinity of all trinities- and is a mystic number which invokes tradition and religion. - [Cats have 9 lives: the facts behind the myth.][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also the Celtic mythological legend of the [Cat Sìth][2], which offers us its own possibility of being the source of this belief that cats had nine lives!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;The *Cat Sìth* is a fairy creature from Celtic mythology, said to resemble a large black cat with a white spot on its chest. Legend has it that the spectral cat haunts the Scottish Highlands. The legends surrounding this creature are more common in Scottish folklore, but a few occur in Irish. Some common folklore suggested that the Cat Sìth was not a fairy, but a witch that could transform into a cat nine times.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Some people believed that the Cat Sìth was a witch that could transform voluntarily into its cat form and back eight times. If one of these witches chose to go back into their cat form for the ninth time, they would remain a cat for the rest of their lives. It is believed by some that this is how the idea of a cat having nine lives originated. - [Wikipedia.][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More on cats in Celtic folklore can be read here: [Cats in Celtic Folklore.][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some believe the origins stem from William Shakespeare's play [Romeo and Juliet][5]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Tybalt: What wouldst thou have with me?&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Mercutio: Good king of cats, nothing but one of your nine lives. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;There is also an ancient proverb of unknown provenance: &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;A cat has nine lives. For three he plays, for three he strays, and for the last three he stays.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.unexplainedstuff.com/Superstitions-Strange-Customs-Taboos-and-Urban-Legends/Superstitions-Cats.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_s%C3%ACth&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/ampp3d/cats-9-lives-facts-behind-4388389&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.playfulkitty.net/2014/03/17/cats-in-history-celtic-folklore/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.wyrdology.com/cats/nine-lives.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7636" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1846" RevisionGUID="08e1d015-a43c-4616-aa67-22cd2cb0a3a6" CreationDate="2016-08-02T10:47:27.873" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="You probably have heard about stories about dying-and-rising gods ,like Inanna and Dumuzi and Aphrodite and Adonis, who represent fertility. Are there any Asian dying-and-rising gods who represent fertility as well?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7637" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1846" RevisionGUID="08e1d015-a43c-4616-aa67-22cd2cb0a3a6" CreationDate="2016-08-02T10:47:27.873" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Are there any Asian variants of dying-and-rising god fertility god?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7638" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1846" RevisionGUID="08e1d015-a43c-4616-aa67-22cd2cb0a3a6" CreationDate="2016-08-02T10:47:27.873" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7639" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1847" RevisionGUID="ab609d88-4a4f-4d36-98a1-24096927677b" CreationDate="2016-08-02T14:14:21.880" UserId="2774" Text="Hard to answer question. The main problem here is the natives was not knowing writing at all. So we find pretty old account by explorers back in the 1700 BUT those are by people having some difficulties talking with the natives and having way more goal than collecting myths...&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now most of what we have is so relatively recent. One of the least recent piece we have is from Mary Catherwood. Miss Catherwood collected lots of Indians believes an novelised them, here is a significant passage in her book the Chase of Saint-Castin:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Windigo like to eat him.”  “I  would  kill  a  windigo,” declared &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Michel,  in  full  revolt.  “Not  so  easy  to  kill  a  windigo.  Bad&#xD;&#xA;&gt; spirits  help  windigos.  If  man  kill  windigo  and  not  tear  him &#xD;&#xA;&gt; to  pieces, he come to life again.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Windigos are there basically monsters as Neme's Lion... You kill it by being stronger which seems to be a feature all by itself. Now you have to note it was written by an American writer, for a novel, so take that with all the necessary caution.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now the rest that you will find has been written by other Americans/Europeans, or by modern natives. Two things you will find potentially able to kill a wendigo are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Silver: It is vastly due to the fact wendigos has been associated with werewolves (incorrectly or not). Keep in note that silver is also a relatively recent weakness of the werewolves. Silver bullets was not your random loot during Middle Age!!!&#xD;&#xA; 2. Burning his heart of ice: Anyone will see here a reference to the Ice Queen whose heart needs to melt (well by love, but hey). So once again caution.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;Monsters in myths rarely have 'weaknesses' in sense of kryptonite syndrome, &quot;hahah on the ground Superman&quot;. In myths, you kill monsters the good old way: facing them and (hopefully) killing them." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7643" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1678" RevisionGUID="ba3cc4b5-c228-4564-9f6e-da033d1b5232" CreationDate="2016-08-04T08:40:01.007" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="7644" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1849" RevisionGUID="e92ecb3b-d469-4375-afbd-deec024bb7ed" CreationDate="2016-08-05T02:54:54.053" UserId="2839" Text="To my knowledge, they do not die, but can be rendered inert through a two step process.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Shattering their heart with a silver blade, and cutting up the body.&#xD;&#xA;2. Burn the pieces without mixing them, and scatter the remains in places far from each other, such as one part in a well and another part in a cave miles away and another part buried in a hole miles away from the other parts etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If too many parts are too close together, they will reform, and revive.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You should try to stay awake, to avoid its possession, or its psychosis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hopefully this helps." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7645" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1850" RevisionGUID="56025f02-2ee2-480a-aedf-77058707b8a0" CreationDate="2016-08-05T18:06:38.423" UserId="2844" Text="Something I never see mentioned concerning this seal and the &quot;solar system&quot; is why only including Pluto makes no sense. Since you can't see all the planets with the naked eye, I believe the idea is that the information of our &quot;correct&quot; solar system was passed down by those posing as &quot;gods&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, here lies my issue. If you do a simple Google search for dwarf planets, you can see others which are close in size to Pluto. Eris, for example is basically the same size. My inclination would be that any &quot;correct&quot; solar system provided to the ancients by otherworldly beings (let's assume for the sake of argument) would either list 8 (not counting the smaller &quot;dwarf&quot; planets) or at least 10 (Eris and Pluto) or up to 15 (with smaller, similarly sized dwarf planets). None of which correspond to the proposed &quot;solar system model. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7646" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1851" RevisionGUID="b5bfa593-ef45-4dc6-8911-c19f7fb3e187" CreationDate="2016-08-05T21:29:47.683" UserId="2846" Text="If I swear something on the river Styx,is it possible to take it back?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7647" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1851" RevisionGUID="b5bfa593-ef45-4dc6-8911-c19f7fb3e187" CreationDate="2016-08-05T21:29:47.683" UserId="2846" Text="Is it possible tk take back a swear on the river styx?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7648" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1851" RevisionGUID="b5bfa593-ef45-4dc6-8911-c19f7fb3e187" CreationDate="2016-08-05T21:29:47.683" UserId="2846" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7649" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1851" RevisionGUID="d281c67c-1c59-4ad6-9774-ecb08be47198" CreationDate="2016-08-05T22:09:07.450" UserId="967" Comment="formatting stuff" Text="If I swear something on the River Styx, is it possible to take it back?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7650" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1851" RevisionGUID="d281c67c-1c59-4ad6-9774-ecb08be47198" CreationDate="2016-08-05T22:09:07.450" UserId="967" Comment="formatting stuff" Text="Is it possible to take back a swear on the River Styx?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7651" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1851" RevisionGUID="f9d23f6b-e409-4833-bd52-21edede8b899" CreationDate="2016-08-05T22:21:25.657" UserId="967" Comment="edited title" Text="Is it possible to take back an oath on the River Styx?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7652" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1846" RevisionGUID="40a6c6f3-82f3-45b5-b29a-ec0269bb78c4" CreationDate="2016-08-06T00:35:47.230" UserDisplayName="user1385" Comment="added 4 characters in body; edited title" Text="You probably have heard about stories about dying-and-rising gods ,like Inanna and Dumuzi and Aphrodite and Adonis.Fundemetaly,they represent fertility and the seasons. Are there any Asian dying-and-rising gods as well?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7653" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1846" RevisionGUID="40a6c6f3-82f3-45b5-b29a-ec0269bb78c4" CreationDate="2016-08-06T00:35:47.230" UserDisplayName="user1385" Comment="added 4 characters in body; edited title" Text="Are there any Asian variants of dying-and-rising god?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7654" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1851" RevisionGUID="eda7c692-a14c-43d6-b492-947b240362bf" CreationDate="2016-08-06T00:55:12.930" UserId="2846" Comment="added 123 characters in body" Text="If I swear something on the River Styx, is it possible to take it back?&#xD;&#xA;And if I were to swear something like &quot;I will eat john Cena brand noodles&quot; which doesn't exist then what well happen?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7655" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1851" RevisionGUID="c6f3a486-f039-41d9-971c-0988aed40582" CreationDate="2016-08-06T01:16:34.240" UserId="2846" Comment="added 52 characters in body" Text="If I swear something on the River Styx, is it possible to take it back?&#xD;&#xA;And if I were to swear something like &quot;I will eat john Cena brand noodles&quot; which doesn't exist then what well happen?&#xD;&#xA;And also does it count if you say it in your mind?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7656" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1851" RevisionGUID="dac6fbfa-a492-4a61-8d2e-a7f138bff56b" CreationDate="2016-08-06T01:32:52.553" UserId="2846" Comment="added 97 characters in body" Text="If I swear something on the River Styx, is it possible to take it back?&#xD;&#xA;And if I were to swear something like &quot;I will eat john Cena brand noodles&quot; which doesn't exist then what well happen?&#xD;&#xA;And also does it count if you say it in your mind?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And does it count if you pronounce it stikes?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7657" PostHistoryTypeId="8" PostId="1851" RevisionGUID="fbecaba9-349f-4b92-b4af-dfbd6be95834" CreationDate="2016-08-06T03:33:52.297" UserId="967" Comment="Rollback to [f9d23f6b-e409-4833-bd52-21edede8b899]" Text="If I swear something on the River Styx, is it possible to take it back?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7658" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1852" RevisionGUID="f9b2c926-421d-43af-a76e-908afd105916" CreationDate="2016-08-06T03:47:07.897" UserId="967" Text="#TLDR: No. It was the one oath that was binding, but only used by heavenly beings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[In this link,][1] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;[Hypnos (Hypnus), the god of sleep, insists Hera seal her pledge to him by an oath on the Styx :] ‘Come then! Swear it to me on Styx' ineluctable water. With one hand take hold of the prospering earth, with the other take hold of the shining salt sea, so that all the undergods who gather about Kronos may be witnesses to us.’&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If Hera pledges to Hypnos, and Hypnos insists that it is not enough, then suggests a River Styx oath, then I would say that means it's not able to be taken back.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, it was the ***strongest oath you could make!***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;And Leto sware the great oath of the gods : ‘Now hear this, Gaia (Gaea, Earth) and wide Ouranos (Uranus, Heaven) above, and dropping water of Styx, this is the stongest and most awful oath for the blessed gods.’&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Virgil says that it is the *one* dreadful and *binding* oath&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;This I [Jove, Zeus] swear by the source of the inexorable river, Styx--the **one dreadful and binding oath** for us heaven-dwellers.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also note that it says *heaven dwellers*. This means that lesser mortals can't swear on the River Styx. That does not mean that they cannot witness it, as we see in the story of Semele, or Phaethon&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Semele&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;The girl [Semele]. unwittingly, asked of Jove [Zeus] a boon unnamed. ‘Choose what you will’, the god replied, `‘There's nothing I'll refuse; and should you doubt, the Power of rushing Stygia shall be my witness, the deity whom all gods hold in awe’ [and she asked him to appear before her in his full glory, a request which Zeus could not now refuse and which doomed the girl].&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Phaethon&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;[Helios (Helius, the Sun) swears an oath to his son Phaethon:] ‘Well you deserve to be my son’, he said, ‘Truly your mother named your lineage; and to dispel all doubt, ask what you will that I may satisfy your heart's desire; and that dark marsh [the river Styx] by which the gods make oath, though to my eyes unknown, shall seal my troth.’ He scarce had ended when the boy declared his wish - his father's chariot for one day with licence to control the soaring steeds . . . [Helios to Phaethon:] ‘By Stygia I swore and I shall not refuse, whate'er your choice: but oh! more wisely choose!’ So Sol [Helios] warned.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/PotamosStyx.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7660" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1853" RevisionGUID="514fcbc7-6a57-45f9-a933-16942bae96ce" CreationDate="2016-08-07T01:17:33.420" UserId="431" Text="Why is the goat often associated with Satan in various religious folklore and illustrations? What makes the goat satanic?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7661" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1853" RevisionGUID="514fcbc7-6a57-45f9-a933-16942bae96ce" CreationDate="2016-08-07T01:17:33.420" UserId="431" Text="Why is goat associated with Satan?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7662" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1853" RevisionGUID="514fcbc7-6a57-45f9-a933-16942bae96ce" CreationDate="2016-08-07T01:17:33.420" UserId="431" Text="|animals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7663" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1854" RevisionGUID="5b046d23-38d0-4eec-a9f5-3609b0e6ff70" CreationDate="2016-08-07T09:34:59.113" UserId="2774" Text="You can at least find 2 main reasons:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Goat gods are pretty old beliefs. You find them in almost every cultures spreading everywhere. Celts have Cernunnos. In norse myth you have Tanngrisnir and Tanngjostr. In roman myth Faunus and Hammon/ In greece Pan. In sumer you have Dumuzid, the Tammuz of the Bible. For what I am aware, as we found cavern drawings of anthropomorphic goats, it could well be one of the oldest cult. And the Bible is very keen to point out the falsehood of other Gods by demonifying them.&#xD;&#xA; 2. Per se goats are strange creatures, if you saw some in action. Specifically the male one, the buck. Those animals have an incredible libido and you see them having hard on all the time. And when there are females around them they are extremly demonstrative. I have seen some almost strangulating themselves to reach them. And they very casually piss on themselves; Specifically the legs, the face and in the mouth (yes). Not something you see the other flock animals like horses, sheep or bull do. Beside that, goats are prone to eat a lot of things. Give them paper and enjoy them chewing on it... An horse will ignore the paper simply&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Bible uses goat to symbolize sin rejection with the concept of scapegoat. It just makes clear the proximity between goats and human beings. In other words, Bible replaced human sacrifice by goat sacrifice. And hence why devilish creatures tend to use the feature of the goats. Cause devilish creatures are full of sin." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7664" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1855" RevisionGUID="fb73a6c6-89f1-459d-bc97-49144725431c" CreationDate="2016-08-07T11:56:03.743" UserId="2843" Text="The staff of medicine should be **Asclepius's** staff than why is it **Hermes's** staff? Example: The sign of **WHO**" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7665" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1855" RevisionGUID="fb73a6c6-89f1-459d-bc97-49144725431c" CreationDate="2016-08-07T11:56:03.743" UserId="2843" Text="Why is the staff of medicine symbolised by Hermes's staff, Caduceus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7666" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1855" RevisionGUID="fb73a6c6-89f1-459d-bc97-49144725431c" CreationDate="2016-08-07T11:56:03.743" UserId="2843" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7667" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1855" RevisionGUID="f2de2e65-145b-44b0-973d-6164f6db7943" CreationDate="2016-08-07T20:34:51.073" UserId="967" Comment="tags, some other stuff" Text="The staff of medicine should be **Asclepius's** staff. So why is it **Hermes's** staff? Example: The sign of **WHO**" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7668" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1855" RevisionGUID="f2de2e65-145b-44b0-973d-6164f6db7943" CreationDate="2016-08-07T20:34:51.073" UserId="967" Comment="tags, some other stuff" Text="|greek|symbolism+|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7669" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1856" RevisionGUID="6f7c7e11-e62f-467b-bd50-ff0e21471469" CreationDate="2016-08-07T20:38:08.000" UserId="42" Text="Indeed it should be, and quite often is.  Most academic institutions and medical journals get it right, for instance, as well as most organizations overall outside the USA.  Some notable examples:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;World Heath Organization&lt;br /&gt;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;American Medical Association&lt;br /&gt;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;Peninsula School of Medicine&lt;br /&gt;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;Star of Life, used on American ambulances&lt;br /&gt;since the 1970s (and elsewhere)&lt;br /&gt;[![enter image description here][4]][4]&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;New England Journal of Medicine&lt;br /&gt;[![enter image description here][5]][5]&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;Standford School of Medicine&lt;br /&gt;[![enter image description here][6]][6]&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interestingly, a survey found that the majority professional healthcare organizations in the US use the more accurate symbol, the Rod of Asclepius, while the majority of *commercial* healthcare organizations use the Caduceus.  Given the Caduceus long association with commerce, there is a certain poetic appropriateness to that.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Using the Caduceus instead is seen mainly (and irregularly) in the United States.  Why?  Well, have you heard the expression &quot;There's the right way, the wrong way, and the army way&quot;?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;US Army Medical Corps Plaque&lt;br /&gt;[![enter image description here][7]][7]&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Okay, that's not *quite* fair.  There are reasons for the link between the medical corps and the Caduceus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Caduceus has been used as an emblem of peace, borne by an envoy or ambassador with a message or peace or demand for surrender, documented as early as 168 BC, and this meaning was clearly known in the 17th and 18th centuries.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Around the time of the US Civil War, a caduceus would be worn by hospital stewards to indicate their non-combatant status:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][8]][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Caduceus also has a long history as a symbol of commerce, and the US Public Health Service adopted an emblem incorporating a caduceus, presumably in connection to merchant seamen (the same anchor-and-caduceus emblem is used by the US Surgeon General):&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][9]][9]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The the perception of the symbol became solidified as a symbol of medicine in the US, was likely when it was adopted by the Medical Corps (shown above), as a symbol of medicine, by the US Surgeon General in 1902, at the insistence of a Capt. Frederick P. Reynolds (or possibly Col. John R. van Hoff), citing it's use by the Hospital Corps, as well as being used by the English (it wasn't, they used the staff of Asclepius).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think it's reasonable to leave off there, say the rest is history. There is certainly more to the whole story, but I'm not trying to write a book here. For more, see:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [The Golden Wand of Medicine: A History of the Caduceus Symbol in Medicine](https://www.amazon.com/Golden-Wand-Medicine-Caduceus-Contributions/dp/0313280231), by Walter J. Friedlander&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [The Use of Mercury's Caduceus as a Medical Emblem](http://www.jstor.org/stable/3289465), by Bernice S. Engle, in &quot;The Classical Journal&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/l6WFV.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Ub3FF.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/KO4Ae.png&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ghrFz.png&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/EYlv8.png&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/5Dblb.png&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/y4WeI.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/bH3gC.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/p3M5H.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7670" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1857" RevisionGUID="271d76ee-b9c9-4a0a-81bc-b72227cbad32" CreationDate="2016-08-07T20:40:52.290" UserId="967" Text="There are actually *two* different versions. And the WHO actually does *not* feature a caduceus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Version 1:** The Hermes caduceus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Given by Zeus/Apollo, and didn't do anything about healing. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hermes' caduceus is actually *not* the one on the WHO as you have described&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; [![][1]][1][![WHO][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which clearly are different.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Version 2:** Asclepius's snake on a stick.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Asclepius, as you said, was the god of healing, and his symbol looks like&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![snake on a stick][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which looks more like the WHO symbol. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But it clearly is not, because all of the images that I have searched feature the snake pointing to the left and not to the right.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I did some more [research][4] and saw that&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;It originates from the story of Asclepius who was revered by the ancient Greeks as a god of healing and whose cult involved the use of snakes. (Asclepius, incidentally, was so successful at saving lives that, the legend goes, Hades the god of the underworld complained about him to the supreme god Zeus who, fearing that the healer might make humans immortal, killed Asclepius with a thunderbolt.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Well, they got their myths wrong. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/6DHqg.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/dSpn0.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/F5euD.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.who.int/about/licensing/emblem/en/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7672" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1855" RevisionGUID="6ac605b2-09d9-4a46-9125-8139af9a39ee" CreationDate="2016-08-08T11:16:35.747" UserId="57" Comment="added 20 characters in body" Text="The staff of medicine should be Asclepius's staff. So why is it Hermes's staff used? Example: The sign of the World Health Organization." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7673" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1856" RevisionGUID="afe9e7e1-fb04-4577-8544-6dc6ce3efa16" CreationDate="2016-08-08T15:19:30.560" UserId="42" Comment="deleted 48 characters in body" Text="Indeed it should be, and quite often is.  Most academic institutions and medical journals get it right, for instance, as well as most organizations overall outside the USA.  Some notable examples:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;World Heath Organization&lt;br /&gt;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;American Medical Association&lt;br /&gt;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;Peninsula School of Medicine&lt;br /&gt;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;Star of Life, used on American ambulances&lt;br /&gt;since the 1970s (and elsewhere)&lt;br /&gt;[![enter image description here][4]][4]&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;New England Journal of Medicine&lt;br /&gt;[![enter image description here][5]][5]&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;Standford School of Medicine&lt;br /&gt;[![enter image description here][6]][6]&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interestingly, a survey found that the majority professional healthcare organizations in the US use the more accurate symbol, the Rod of Asclepius, while the majority of *commercial* healthcare organizations use the Caduceus.  Given the Caduceus long association with commerce, there is a certain poetic appropriateness to that.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Using the Caduceus instead is seen mainly (and irregularly) in the United States.  Why?  Well, have you heard the expression &quot;There's the right way, the wrong way, and the army way&quot;?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;US Army Medical Corps Plaque&lt;br /&gt;[![enter image description here][7]][7]&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Okay, that's not *quite* fair.  There are reasons for the link between the medical corps and the Caduceus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Caduceus has been used as an emblem of peace, borne by an envoy or ambassador with a message or peace or demand for surrender, documented as early as 168 BC, and this meaning was clearly known in the 17th and 18th centuries.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Around the time of the US Civil War, a caduceus would be worn by hospital stewards to indicate their non-combatant status:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][8]][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Caduceus also has a long history as a symbol of commerce, and the US Public Health Service adopted an emblem incorporating a caduceus, presumably in connection to merchant seamen (the same anchor-and-caduceus emblem is used by the US Surgeon General):&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][9]][9]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The the perception of it as a symbol of medicine seems to have solidified when it was adopted by the Medical Corps (shown above), by the US Surgeon General in 1902, at the insistence of a Capt. Frederick P. Reynolds (or possibly Col. John R. van Hoff), citing it's use by the Hospital Corps, as well as being used by the English (it wasn't, they used the staff of Asclepius).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think it's reasonable to leave off there, say the rest is history. There is certainly more to the whole story, but I'm not trying to write a book here. For more, see:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [The Golden Wand of Medicine: A History of the Caduceus Symbol in Medicine](https://www.amazon.com/Golden-Wand-Medicine-Caduceus-Contributions/dp/0313280231), by Walter J. Friedlander&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [The Use of Mercury's Caduceus as a Medical Emblem](http://www.jstor.org/stable/3289465), by Bernice S. Engle, in &quot;The Classical Journal&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/l6WFV.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Ub3FF.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/KO4Ae.png&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ghrFz.png&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/EYlv8.png&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/5Dblb.png&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/y4WeI.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/bH3gC.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/p3M5H.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7678" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1860" RevisionGUID="dcdc8802-e0a9-4285-8fd7-9e95421c5dcc" CreationDate="2016-08-09T23:56:11.060" UserId="2687" Text="Several reasons&#xD;&#xA;===============&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reasons for the associations of goats with Satan vary. Some are quite ancient, while others are of more recent vintage. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Parable of the Sheep and the Goats&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sheep are loyal. They follow the Son of God, metaphorically a shepherd. Goats, on the other hand, are disobedient  and difficult. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he will sit on his glorious throne.  All the nations will be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sheep on his right and the goats on his left.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;*NIV, Matthew 25:31-33* &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We see here that goats are being used as metaphor for sin in Matthew, very early in the development of the Christian church. In setting the sheep on his right hand, Jesus gives them a favored position. The goats, on the other hand....&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you&#xD;&#xA;&gt; did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;*NIV, Matthew 25:41-43* &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The scapegoat&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Aaron shall offer the goat on which the lot for the LORD fell,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and make it a sin offering. 10&quot;But the goat on which the lot for the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; scapegoat fell shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make&#xD;&#xA;&gt; atonement upon it, to send it into the wilderness as the scapegoat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;*NASB, Leviticus 16:10* &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems like that the idea of the goat as a repository for sin may have outweighed the knowledge that there was also a goat being sacrificed to  God. After all, presumably a calf or bull is one's richest sacrifice, so why not associate the goat with something else?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A lot of the *modern* associations of Satan with goats come from the idea of Baphomet, though. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Baphomet ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eliphas Levi, undoubtedly influenced by earlier associations of goats with witchcraft,  propounded the idea of a goat-headed deity, which he identified with the Baphomet purportedly worshiped by the Templars:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The symbolic head of the goat of Mendes is occasionally given to this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; figure, and it is then the Baphomet of the Templars and the Word of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Gnostics, bizarre images which became scarecrows for the vulgar&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after affording food for reflection to sages – innocent hieroglyphs of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thought and faith which have been a pretext for the rage of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; persecutions. How pitiable are men in their ignorance, but how they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; would despise themselves if only they came to know!&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*Dogma et Rituel de la Haute Magie* (translated)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is from Levi that we received the most stereotypical Satanic goat image, a semi-nude individual with male, female, and goat attributes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;! ![Hive][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These ideas have had a tremendous influence on modern perception of the devil as possessed of goat attributes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/uIeQI.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7679" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1861" RevisionGUID="d7062fe2-968f-4e0e-bcb9-9ca8625cf0d9" CreationDate="2016-08-10T00:21:46.737" UserId="2687" Text="In Herodotus's *Histories* (I.91) it is said:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When the Lydians came, and spoke as they had been instructed, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; priestess (it is said) made the following reply. “No one may escape&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his lot, not even a god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This would seem to indicate that the gods are subject to the whims of the Fates. Of course, this is also simply the opinion of a mortal, albeit a priestess. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Contrariwise, Zeus is often considered as the leader of the Olympians, with all of them subject to his will. This would seem to include the Moirai. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any evidence for or against Zeus being subject to the will of the Fates? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7680" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1861" RevisionGUID="d7062fe2-968f-4e0e-bcb9-9ca8625cf0d9" CreationDate="2016-08-10T00:21:46.737" UserId="2687" Text="Is Zeus subject to the decrees of the Moirai?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7681" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1861" RevisionGUID="d7062fe2-968f-4e0e-bcb9-9ca8625cf0d9" CreationDate="2016-08-10T00:21:46.737" UserId="2687" Text="|greek|zeus|fates|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7682" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1862" RevisionGUID="4c93797e-69fb-4b50-aebe-a67cf6b1a396" CreationDate="2016-08-10T00:29:07.070" UserId="967" Text="Yes, surprisingly,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Moirai were independent, at the helm of necessity, directed fate, and watched that the fate assigned to every being by eternal laws might take its course without obstruction; and Zeus, as well as the other gods and man, had to submit to them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From [here][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Pausanias, Description of Greece&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;[In the temple of Zeus at Megara :] Above the head of Zeus are the **Horai** (Horae, Seasons) and **Moirai** (Moirae, Fates), and all may see that he is the only god obeyed by Moira (Destiny).&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Moirai.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7683" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1863" RevisionGUID="7d0b6c4c-ba4d-4ba0-b51c-6a9791009521" CreationDate="2016-08-10T00:35:39.693" UserId="2687" Text="Most folkloric representations of the Devil seem to be male. For example, (female) witches were sometimes imagined to have had carnal knowledge of Satan. In most folktales about the devil, said entity is depicted either as an animal, an inhuman creature of some sort, or a  man.  Are there any mythological or folkloric examples of Satan appearing in a specifically human, female form?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7684" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1863" RevisionGUID="7d0b6c4c-ba4d-4ba0-b51c-6a9791009521" CreationDate="2016-08-10T00:35:39.693" UserId="2687" Text="Female representations of Satan" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7685" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1863" RevisionGUID="7d0b6c4c-ba4d-4ba0-b51c-6a9791009521" CreationDate="2016-08-10T00:35:39.693" UserId="2687" Text="|christianity|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7686" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1862" RevisionGUID="e83a4aee-4bb9-426a-a031-ab446f41aa1f" CreationDate="2016-08-10T00:38:35.480" UserId="967" Comment="added 887 characters in body" Text="Yes, surprisingly,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Moirai were independent, at the helm of necessity, directed fate, and watched that the fate assigned to every being by eternal laws might take its course without obstruction; and Zeus, as well as the other gods and man, had to submit to them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From [here][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Quintus Smyrnaeus,*&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;To the Moirai (Moirae, Fates) the might of Zeus must bow; and by the Immortals' purpose all these things had come to pass, or by the Moirai's ordinance.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We see this directly in a known myth,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Nonnus, Dionysiaca,*&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;[Zeus swore he would grant Semele a wish, but she requested he appear before her in his full glory which would bring her destruction :] Father Zeus heard, and blamed the jealous Moirai (Moirae, Fates), and pitied Semele so soon to die . . . [Zeus tried to dissuade her] but he had no thought of fighting against the threads of Fate.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But Zeus was the guide...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Pausanias, Description of Greece*&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;[In the temple of Zeus at Megara :] Above the head of Zeus are the **Horai** (Horae, Seasons) and **Moirai** (Moirae, Fates), and all may see that he is the only god obeyed by Moira (Destiny).&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Pausanias, Description of Greece*&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;[In the shrine of Despoine (Despoena) at Akakesion (Acacesium) in Arkadia :] On the first relief are wrought Moirai (Moirae) and Zeus surnamed Moiragetes (Guide of Fate).&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus was the *Moiragetes*- the Guide. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Moirai.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7687" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1864" RevisionGUID="ca5b059c-c9b6-402d-87a7-5a5d36cfa890" CreationDate="2016-08-10T01:43:57.483" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="The Hindu Mother goddess lives within the Sun thereby liberating the Sun's energy to the universe. Since then, this form of the Goddess has been known as Kushmanda, namely for her power and capability to live inside the Sun. The glow and radiance of her body are as luminous as that of the Sun.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;source:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navadurga" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7691" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1328" RevisionGUID="7e6fa002-37f4-4671-bbd5-a2caada21998" CreationDate="2016-08-10T02:46:56.360" UserId="42" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mongolian-shamanism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7692" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1866" RevisionGUID="950e1ab1-1c0d-4457-b496-61c3bf7cc68a" CreationDate="2016-08-10T02:48:51.080" UserId="42" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7693" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1867" RevisionGUID="9d7ec430-55c0-4bd8-83f8-51c1933daa9e" CreationDate="2016-08-10T02:48:51.080" UserId="42" Comment="edited body" Text="The shamanistic folk religion practiced in Mongolia and the surrounding areas.  Also caleld Tengerism, or Böö mörgöl." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7696" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1149" RevisionGUID="747160a8-7bee-4f81-8c62-b6a023435943" CreationDate="2016-08-10T03:33:59.343" UserId="42" Comment="edited tags" Text="|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7697" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1097" RevisionGUID="d9683e82-76f2-4fdb-b1c5-f08eb9f279ee" CreationDate="2016-08-10T03:35:43.827" UserId="42" Comment="edited tags" Text="|rosicrucianism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7698" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1868" RevisionGUID="ba8e469e-3f1d-4c5e-87d6-1e7e534f6862" CreationDate="2016-08-10T03:42:40.500" UserId="42" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7699" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1869" RevisionGUID="d2f0b2a4-ca2c-4281-a8a2-cef193d9db88" CreationDate="2016-08-10T03:42:40.500" UserId="42" Text="Relating to the Rosicrurians, or &quot;Order of the Rose Cross&quot;, as described in the Rosicrurian Manifestos." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7701" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1870" RevisionGUID="4a3f77af-b2c0-468d-aad0-ee6547b142a9" CreationDate="2016-08-10T08:08:27.613" UserId="264" Text="Is there any mythical creature that is a chimera between a wolf and a snake?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Cerberus][1] could be considered one but he was definitely a dog, not a wolf.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerberus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7702" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1870" RevisionGUID="4a3f77af-b2c0-468d-aad0-ee6547b142a9" CreationDate="2016-08-10T08:08:27.613" UserId="264" Text="Wolf and snake chimera" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7703" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1870" RevisionGUID="4a3f77af-b2c0-468d-aad0-ee6547b142a9" CreationDate="2016-08-10T08:08:27.613" UserId="264" Text="|mythical-creatures|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7706" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1870" RevisionGUID="27d13a81-6846-49af-803f-279dc728814c" CreationDate="2016-08-10T17:07:13.270" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7707" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1871" RevisionGUID="4e745fc4-cb99-450c-849e-91e792accd56" CreationDate="2016-08-10T17:44:10.347" UserId="967" Text="So I found this person named [Khaemsweset][1] or Setne, son of Ramsseses II.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does he have *anything* to do with Set? Because Setne sounds a *lot* like Set, the god of evil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaemweset" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7708" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1871" RevisionGUID="4e745fc4-cb99-450c-849e-91e792accd56" CreationDate="2016-08-10T17:44:10.347" UserId="967" Text="Was Setne anything to do with Set?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7709" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1871" RevisionGUID="4e745fc4-cb99-450c-849e-91e792accd56" CreationDate="2016-08-10T17:44:10.347" UserId="967" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7710" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1872" RevisionGUID="ec11e4d7-6efa-44ed-8a1a-fa584b61c8db" CreationDate="2016-08-10T19:32:28.383" UserId="2858" Text="I always thought it had to deal with the fact that kings were seen as dieties, so if the king is half god than that may be were the one third human comes in, but i say this without knowing Mesopotamian claims to royalty and dietyship." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7711" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1873" RevisionGUID="dbbafea6-0118-41c2-a525-5e16adb4b971" CreationDate="2016-08-11T00:22:30.037" UserId="91" Text="In *Romance of the Three Kingdoms*, after [Guan Yu][1] finds out [Liu Bei][2] is still alive and with [Yuan Shao][3], he departs [Cao Cao][4] from [Xuchang][5] and heads north, in a story known as [*crossing five passes and slays six generals* (過五關斬六將)][6].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Is there a map of this journey?** The story gives the sense that Guan Yu headed straight towards the destination, and that the five passes happened to be on his path. Yet I suspect the path isn't so simple - for example, the most direct path from Xuchang to Yuan Shao's territory would be directly north, passing locations like [Guandu][7] and [Boma][8], but one of the gates is [Luoyang][9], which is to Xuchang's northwest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I suspect that this may be another instance of the author's exaggerations in the novel.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guan_Yu&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Bei&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuan_Shao&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cao_Cao&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xuchang&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fictitious_stories_in_Romance_of_the_Three_Kingdoms#Guan_Yu_crosses_five_passes_and_slays_six_generals&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Guandu&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Boma&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luoyang" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7712" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1873" RevisionGUID="dbbafea6-0118-41c2-a525-5e16adb4b971" CreationDate="2016-08-11T00:22:30.037" UserId="91" Text="Map of Guan Yu crossing 5 passes?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7713" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1873" RevisionGUID="dbbafea6-0118-41c2-a525-5e16adb4b971" CreationDate="2016-08-11T00:22:30.037" UserId="91" Text="|chinese|romance-three-kingdoms|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7714" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1874" RevisionGUID="f1bfce11-561b-4df7-baab-2d0cf33992e8" CreationDate="2016-08-11T06:12:09.180" UserId="91" Text="I thought I'd do this using a mapping tool. So the map and list of locations for Guan Yu's journey (at least before he diverted for [Runan][1]) is:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![map][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Xuchang&#xD;&#xA;2. Dongling Pass (south of modern day Dengfeng)&#xD;&#xA;3. Luoyang&#xD;&#xA;4. Sishui Pass (actually Hulao Pass in real life)&#xD;&#xA;5. Xingyang&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The last location is by the bank of the Yellow River, but it isn't specified where. Also for reference, Guandu is the unnumbered pin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the path taken is not a straight one but a great big left hook. This raises some questions:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The hook extends to the west at Luoyang. Was there some compelling reason to go there?&#xD;&#xA;- Or was it somehow impossible to go directly north from Xuchang - perhaps to avoid the bulk of Cao Cao's forces still engaging Yuan Shao in the area?&#xD;&#xA;- Sishui/Hulao Pass is quite close to the river already. Why not cross near here?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Yellow River is notorious for changing course but these usually occur just downstream from Zhengzhou, so the path described in the novel shouldn't be affected. It's possible that there were limited locations for ferries, and Guan Yu may have traced the coastline looking for them, but that's my pure speculation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Three Kingdoms Podcast][3] talks more about this; apparently the journey's locations changed throughout retellings over the centuries prior to the novel, and perhaps the original starting point was Chang'an (in the far west), which explains the odd diversion into Luoyang. But given that all this is fictional, there's probably not much sense in worrying about the journey.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runan_County&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/LiHjE.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.3kingdomspodcast.com/2015/04/05/episode-033-organizational-communication-problems/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7716" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1876" RevisionGUID="47f3559d-ea0f-4a97-b162-3d65316349a0" CreationDate="2016-08-11T07:31:43.647" UserId="2774" Text="That is an historical question... In fact.. Cause the Ramses was often depicted very black, they was so perhaps (I say perhaps) black men.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;And Seth because he was first and foremost the God of desert (Translate, the God of strangers mostly cause Egypt was the Nile) was highly praised by the Ramses in general. You find lots of the Ramses and Ramses related wearing a &quot;setic&quot; name, as Seti, for example. But tons of Ramsesides will have Seth somewhere in their name. Not necessarily the Pharaoh themselves.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;But remind that Ramses per se identify them much more with Ra, then Seth...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/UY7Hl.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7718" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1876" RevisionGUID="03fbe5d2-cc7a-4fc6-a8dd-e00e87f9470e" CreationDate="2016-08-11T15:10:40.757" UserId="967" Comment="deleted 49 characters in body" Text="That is an historical question because the Ramses was often depicted very black, they were perhaps black men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![ramses][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And Seth because he was first and foremost the God of desert (Translate, the God of strangers mostly cause Egypt was the Nile) was highly praised by the Ramses in general. You find lots of the Ramses and Ramses related wearing a &quot;setic&quot; name, as Seti, for example. But tons of Ramsesides will have Seth somewhere in their name. Not necessarily the Pharaoh themselves.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But remind that Ramses per se identify them much more with Ra, then Seth...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/UY7Hl.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7719" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1876" RevisionGUID="d7b46eb6-8912-4c3f-8f53-da74fa1ff89e" CreationDate="2016-08-11T15:45:04.007" UserId="2774" Comment="added 403 characters in body" Text="That is an historical question because the Ramses was often depicted very black, they were perhaps black men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![ramses][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And Seth because he was first and foremost the God of desert (Translate, the God of strangers mostly cause Egypt was the Nile) was highly praised by the Ramses in general. You find lots of the Ramses and Ramses related wearing a &quot;setic&quot; name, as Seti, for example. But tons of Ramsesides will have Seth somewhere in their name. Not necessarily the Pharaoh themselves.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But remind that Ramses per se identify them much more with Ra, then Seth...&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Khaemweset is a Ramseside of the 19th dynasty. Ramses I -&gt; Seti I &gt; Ramses II -&gt; Setne. &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And here is the full list of the Pharoah of the 19th dynasty:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Ramses I (Son/heir/coming from of Ra)&#xD;&#xA; - Seti I (of Set)&#xD;&#xA; - Ramses II (Ra)&#xD;&#xA; - Merneptah (Ptah)&#xD;&#xA; - Seti II (Set)&#xD;&#xA; - Amenmesse (Amun)&#xD;&#xA; - Siptah (Ptah)&#xD;&#xA; - Towsret (Re)&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Notice all of them wear the name of a god in their name!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/UY7Hl.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7722" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1878" RevisionGUID="0f584941-defa-4b56-a6d6-65a0c2d1a054" CreationDate="2016-08-12T13:50:39.230" UserId="967" Text="So the wood thing that killed Jason was like from some Dodona thing. I forgot if that's the right name, but it was talking wood.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now where did that talking wood come from?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7723" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1878" RevisionGUID="0f584941-defa-4b56-a6d6-65a0c2d1a054" CreationDate="2016-08-12T13:50:39.230" UserId="967" Text="Where did the wood of Dodona come from?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7724" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1878" RevisionGUID="0f584941-defa-4b56-a6d6-65a0c2d1a054" CreationDate="2016-08-12T13:50:39.230" UserId="967" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7725" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1878" RevisionGUID="729b741e-6f31-434b-821a-55386b0a473f" CreationDate="2016-08-12T18:11:47.607" UserId="967" Comment="added 189 characters in body" Text="So the wood thing that killed Jason was like from some Dodona thing. I forgot if that's the right name, but it was talking wood.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Philostratus the Elder,*&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;The keel which had been fitted beneath the ship [Argo] was wrought of an ancient tree, the tree which Zeus used for his oracular utterances at Dodona.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now where did that talking wood come from?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7726" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1878" RevisionGUID="2f5096ef-36bc-4d21-a647-3291d3453aac" CreationDate="2016-08-12T18:49:56.020" UserId="967" Comment="added 8 characters in body" Text="So the wood thing that killed Jason was like from some Dodona thing. I forgot if that's the right name, but it was prophesying wood.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Philostratus the Elder,*&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;The keel which had been fitted beneath the ship [Argo] was wrought of an ancient tree, the tree which Zeus used for his oracular utterances at Dodona.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now where did that prophesying wood come from?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7727" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1879" RevisionGUID="0f0a1b3e-8d54-4aa9-8e5e-b6f41a0619c8" CreationDate="2016-08-12T19:05:15.993" UserId="2838" Text="Evidently they did have something to distinguish them, as Odin (while in disguise) said that he worries that Huginn won't come back, but he cares more for Muninn (Poetic Edda, Grímnismál).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately, since they never say anything in what of the Norse myths are left, it's impossible to know their individual personalities. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7730" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1846" RevisionGUID="5c8df2db-71ec-4d40-a5a4-e4a4c2ddc6da" CreationDate="2016-08-13T03:24:24.300" UserDisplayName="user1385" Comment="added 142 characters in body" Text="You probably have heard about stories about dying-and-rising gods ,like Inanna and Dumuzi and Aphrodite and Adonis.Some exampls are also given in [this question](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1531/which-mythic-heroes-returned-in-the-spring).Fundementaly,they represent fertility and the seasons. Are there any Asian variants of dying-and-rising gods as well?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7731" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1846" RevisionGUID="b16c9bba-9aa1-490d-884a-0216bac1803b" CreationDate="2016-08-13T10:57:51.453" UserDisplayName="user1385" Comment="edited tags" Text="|gods|myth-identification|resurrection|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7732" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1846" RevisionGUID="b12f55d6-26e5-4bf5-bca6-7d724d1fbdc4" CreationDate="2016-08-13T14:03:26.340" UserId="967" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="You probably have heard about stories about dying-and-rising gods, like Inanna and Dumuzi and Aphrodite and Adonis. Some examples are also given in [this question](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1531/which-mythic-heroes-returned-in-the-spring). Fundamentally,they represent fertility and the seasons. Are there any Asian variants of dying-and-rising gods as well?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7733" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1880" RevisionGUID="7d64ff44-bf4f-4c6c-9e74-0f998e057a48" CreationDate="2016-08-13T17:30:53.423" UserId="57" Text="This is a reference to the oracle in the sanctuary of [Dodona, Epirus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodona?wprov=sfla1):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; During classical antiquity, according to various accounts, priestesses and priests in the sacred grove interpreted the rustling of the oak (or beech) leaves to determine the correct actions to be taken. According to a new interpretation, the oracular sound originated from bronze objects hanging from oak branches and sounded with the wind blowing, similar to a wind chime.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, we have no way of knowing if the piece of wood that fell from the stern and killed Jason was part of the keel (and thus had originated in Dodona).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Furthermore, mythologically it doesn't quite fit. Dodona was Zeus' sanctuary and Jason's death was an act of Hera (for Jason had betrayed Medea). These two were very rarely allied, and Hera had no reason to anger Zeus by using his sacred wood to kill the hero. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7734" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1880" RevisionGUID="7390db56-ea54-488f-8cf9-5199ece01869" CreationDate="2016-08-13T17:37:10.033" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 34 characters in body" Text="This is a reference to the oracle in the sanctuary of [Dodona, Epirus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodona?wprov=sfla1):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; During classical antiquity, according to various accounts, priestesses and priests in the sacred grove interpreted the rustling of the oak (or beech) leaves to determine the correct actions to be taken. According to a new interpretation, the oracular sound originated from bronze objects hanging from oak branches and sounded with the wind blowing, similar to a wind chime.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, we have no way of knowing if the piece of wood that fell from the stern and killed Jason was part of the keel (and thus had originated in Dodona).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Furthermore, mythologically it doesn't quite fit. Dodona was Zeus' sanctuary and Jason's death was an act of Hera (for Jason had betrayed Medea). These two were very rarely allied, and Hera had no reason to risk angering Zeus. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7736" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1881" RevisionGUID="4fb79bd0-b027-4571-8506-5c7bfcad258d" CreationDate="2016-08-14T15:36:53.777" UserId="2868" Text="The Anemoi are the Greek gods of winds each one with its own direction and as a   harbinger of seasonal winds. Eg. Boreas (god of the North wind) is associated with the cold winds of winter.&#xD;&#xA;The 4 chief gods are Boreas, Zephyrus, Notos and Eurus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notos (god of the South wind) and Eurus (god of the East wind) are associated with which seasons and what kind of winds?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7737" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1881" RevisionGUID="4fb79bd0-b027-4571-8506-5c7bfcad258d" CreationDate="2016-08-14T15:36:53.777" UserId="2868" Text="Anemoi (Greek wind gods) and their associations" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7738" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1881" RevisionGUID="4fb79bd0-b027-4571-8506-5c7bfcad258d" CreationDate="2016-08-14T15:36:53.777" UserId="2868" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7739" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1882" RevisionGUID="6d515fe5-2887-4f6f-be97-ad994371ea86" CreationDate="2016-08-14T20:08:45.993" UserId="967" Text="&gt;Each of these was associated with a season--Boreas was the cold breath of winter, Zephyros the god of spring breezes, and Notos the god of summer rain-storms.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the [anemoi][1] article.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[insert primary sources here]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Anemoi.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7740" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1882" RevisionGUID="27cb93c9-e1d6-473f-8795-271a2530d9f5" CreationDate="2016-08-14T20:28:28.760" UserId="967" Comment="added 1825 characters in body" Text="&gt;Each of these was associated with a season--Boreas was the cold breath of winter, Zephyros the god of spring breezes, and Notos the god of summer rain-storms.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So note that Eurus was not associated with them, as there were only 3 seasons to the greeks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the [anemoi][1] article.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (*summary*) In the Orphic Hymns the Winds were hymned as the gods of the seasons--Zephyros (Zephyrus) was spring, Notos (Notus) summer, and Boreas winter. The early Greeks only recognised three, rather than four, seasons. The fourth Wind, Euros (Eurus), is similarly absent from Homer and Hesiod.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Orphic Hymn 80 to Boreas* (trans. Taylor) (Greek hymns C3rd B.C. to 2nd A.D.) :&#xD;&#xA;&quot;To Boreas (the North-Wind), Fumigation from Frankincense. Boreas, whose wintry blasts, terrific, tear the bosom of the deep surrounding air; cold icy power, approach, and favouring blow, and Thrake (Thrace) awhile desert, exposed to snow: the air's all-misty darkening state dissolve, with pregnant clouds whose frames in showers resolve. Serenely temper all within the sky, and wipe from moisture aither's splendid eye.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Orphic Hymn 81 to Zephyrus* :&#xD;&#xA;&quot;To Zephyros (Zephyrus, the West-Wind), Fumigation from Frankincense. Sea-born, aerial, blowing from the west, sweet Breezes (Aurai, Aurae), who give to wearied labour rest. Vernal and grassy, and of murmuring sound, to ships delightful through the sea profound; for these, impelled by you with gentle force, pursue with prosperous fate their destined course. With blameless gales regard my suppliant prayer, Zephyros unseen, light-winged, and formed from air.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Orphic Hymn 82 to Notus :*&#xD;&#xA;&quot;To Notos (Notus, the South-Wind), Fumigation from Frankincense. Wide-coursing gales, whose lightly leaping feet with rapid wings the air's wet bosom beat, approach, benevolent, swift-whirling powers, with humid clouds the principles of showers; for showery clouds are portioned to your care, to send on earth from all-surrounding air. Hear, blessed power, these holy rites attend, and fruitful rains on earth all-parent send.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Anemoi.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7742" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1881" RevisionGUID="182d11c3-12c8-4f08-8ebc-e7d6e992d37c" CreationDate="2016-08-14T23:36:27.033" UserId="967" Comment="added 2 characters in body; edited title" Text="The Anemoi are the Greek gods of winds each one with its own direction and as a   harbinger of seasonal winds. Eg. Boreas (god of the North wind) is associated with the cold winds of winter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The 4 chief gods are Boreas, Zephyrus, Notos and Eurus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notos (god of the South wind) and Eurus (god of the East wind) are associated with which seasons and what kind of winds?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7743" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1881" RevisionGUID="182d11c3-12c8-4f08-8ebc-e7d6e992d37c" CreationDate="2016-08-14T23:36:27.033" UserId="967" Comment="added 2 characters in body; edited title" Text="Anemoi and their associations" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7744" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1881" RevisionGUID="7438cac7-3caf-41ef-8db2-507b711e9fa2" CreationDate="2016-08-15T00:49:47.277" UserId="967" Comment="edited title" Text="What are the Anemoi's associations?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7745" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1398" RevisionGUID="8496168f-e1dc-46b9-9f37-6a86947a0e11" CreationDate="2016-08-15T01:09:28.487" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="7746" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1883" RevisionGUID="f8af5d55-75eb-45c1-80cd-60dfe5e1bc08" CreationDate="2016-08-15T12:18:01.757" UserId="721" Text="There are many names for God. (Yahweh, Adonai etc.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By what name might the angels call God? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7747" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1883" RevisionGUID="f8af5d55-75eb-45c1-80cd-60dfe5e1bc08" CreationDate="2016-08-15T12:18:01.757" UserId="721" Text="What do the (abrahamic) angels call God?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7748" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1883" RevisionGUID="f8af5d55-75eb-45c1-80cd-60dfe5e1bc08" CreationDate="2016-08-15T12:18:01.757" UserId="721" Text="|angels|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7749" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1883" RevisionGUID="cb85248a-749f-4456-b238-996a7513e409" CreationDate="2016-08-15T13:58:28.640" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags; edited title" Text="What do the abrahamic angels call God?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7750" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1883" RevisionGUID="cb85248a-749f-4456-b238-996a7513e409" CreationDate="2016-08-15T13:58:28.640" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags; edited title" Text="|abrahamic-religions|angels|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7752" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1884" RevisionGUID="4fdb5605-77b0-4e4a-b79a-0a7936d716d8" CreationDate="2016-08-15T16:55:15.877" UserId="967" Text="So Hercules found Theseus in the Underworld after he went and finished his last labor of bringing Cerberus back.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What resulted of Theseus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7753" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1884" RevisionGUID="4fdb5605-77b0-4e4a-b79a-0a7936d716d8" CreationDate="2016-08-15T16:55:15.877" UserId="967" Text="What happened to Theseus after Hercules found him?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7754" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1884" RevisionGUID="4fdb5605-77b0-4e4a-b79a-0a7936d716d8" CreationDate="2016-08-15T16:55:15.877" UserId="967" Text="|greek|theseus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7755" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1853" RevisionGUID="8b5ed75d-2068-4b69-b548-07c09e9da6a7" CreationDate="2016-08-15T19:59:00.577" UserId="2687" Comment="Corrected grammar" Text="Why are goats associated with Satan?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7756" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1853" RevisionGUID="8b5ed75d-2068-4b69-b548-07c09e9da6a7" CreationDate="2016-08-15T19:59:00.577" Comment="Proposed by 2687 approved by 967, 62 edit id of 346" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7757" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1860" RevisionGUID="8274f07e-76b6-4be2-be7f-61704065e329" CreationDate="2016-08-15T20:50:39.547" UserId="42" Comment="No need to hide a bit of mild nudity (either that or I've got a fair bit of editing to do on my own posts)" Text="Several reasons&#xD;&#xA;===============&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reasons for the associations of goats with Satan vary. Some are quite ancient, while others are of more recent vintage. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Parable of the Sheep and the Goats&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sheep are loyal. They follow the Son of God, metaphorically a shepherd. Goats, on the other hand, are disobedient  and difficult. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he will sit on his glorious throne.  All the nations will be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sheep on his right and the goats on his left.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;*NIV, Matthew 25:31-33* &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We see here that goats are being used as metaphor for sin in Matthew, very early in the development of the Christian church. In setting the sheep on his right hand, Jesus gives them a favored position. The goats, on the other hand....&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you&#xD;&#xA;&gt; did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;*NIV, Matthew 25:41-43* &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The scapegoat&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Aaron shall offer the goat on which the lot for the LORD fell,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and make it a sin offering. 10&quot;But the goat on which the lot for the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; scapegoat fell shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make&#xD;&#xA;&gt; atonement upon it, to send it into the wilderness as the scapegoat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;*NASB, Leviticus 16:10* &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems like that the idea of the goat as a repository for sin may have outweighed the knowledge that there was also a goat being sacrificed to  God. After all, presumably a calf or bull is one's richest sacrifice, so why not associate the goat with something else?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A lot of the *modern* associations of Satan with goats come from the idea of Baphomet, though. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Baphomet ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eliphas Levi, undoubtedly influenced by earlier associations of goats with witchcraft,  propounded the idea of a goat-headed deity, which he identified with the Baphomet purportedly worshiped by the Templars:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The symbolic head of the goat of Mendes is occasionally given to this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; figure, and it is then the Baphomet of the Templars and the Word of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Gnostics, bizarre images which became scarecrows for the vulgar&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after affording food for reflection to sages – innocent hieroglyphs of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thought and faith which have been a pretext for the rage of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; persecutions. How pitiable are men in their ignorance, but how they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; would despise themselves if only they came to know!&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*Dogma et Rituel de la Haute Magie* (translated)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is from Levi that we received the most stereotypical Satanic goat image, a semi-nude individual with male, female, and goat attributes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Hive][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These ideas have had a tremendous influence on modern perception of the devil as possessed of goat attributes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/uIeQI.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7758" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1854" RevisionGUID="b62c68b5-8c8f-43b3-bfec-fb7a5fbe0bea" CreationDate="2016-08-15T20:57:56.770" UserId="967" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body" Text="You can at least find 2 main reasons:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Goat gods are pretty old beliefs. You find them in almost every cultures spreading everywhere. Celts have Cernunnos. In norse myth you have Tanngrisnir and Tanngjostr. In roman myth Faunus and Hammon/ In greece Pan. In sumer you have Dumuzid, the Tammuz of the Bible. For what I am aware, as we found cavern drawings of anthropomorphic goats, it could well be one of the oldest cult. And the Bible is very keen to point out the falsehood of other Gods by demonifying them.&#xD;&#xA; 2. Per se goats are strange creatures, if you saw some in action. Specifically the male one, the buck. Those animals have an incredible libido and you see them having hard on all the time. And when there are females around them they are extremly demonstrative. I have seen some almost strangulating themselves to reach them. And they very casually piss on themselves; Specifically the legs, the face and in the mouth (yes). Not something you see the other flock animals like horses, sheep or bull do. Beside that, goats are prone to eat a lot of things. Give them paper and enjoy them chewing on it... An horse will ignore the paper simply.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Bible uses goat to symbolize sin rejection with the concept of scapegoat. It just makes clear the proximity between goats and human beings. In other words, Bible replaced human sacrifice by goat sacrifice. And hence why devilish creatures tend to use the feature of the goats. Because devilish creatures are full of sin." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7759" PostHistoryTypeId="8" PostId="1860" RevisionGUID="ede49ea0-eb86-4273-a343-e67c21c3952f" CreationDate="2016-08-16T08:28:37.043" UserId="2687" Comment="Rollback to [dcdc8802-e0a9-4285-8fd7-9e95421c5dcc]" Text="Several reasons&#xD;&#xA;===============&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reasons for the associations of goats with Satan vary. Some are quite ancient, while others are of more recent vintage. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Parable of the Sheep and the Goats&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sheep are loyal. They follow the Son of God, metaphorically a shepherd. Goats, on the other hand, are disobedient  and difficult. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he will sit on his glorious throne.  All the nations will be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sheep on his right and the goats on his left.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;*NIV, Matthew 25:31-33* &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We see here that goats are being used as metaphor for sin in Matthew, very early in the development of the Christian church. In setting the sheep on his right hand, Jesus gives them a favored position. The goats, on the other hand....&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you&#xD;&#xA;&gt; did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;*NIV, Matthew 25:41-43* &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The scapegoat&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Aaron shall offer the goat on which the lot for the LORD fell,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and make it a sin offering. 10&quot;But the goat on which the lot for the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; scapegoat fell shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make&#xD;&#xA;&gt; atonement upon it, to send it into the wilderness as the scapegoat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;*NASB, Leviticus 16:10* &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems like that the idea of the goat as a repository for sin may have outweighed the knowledge that there was also a goat being sacrificed to  God. After all, presumably a calf or bull is one's richest sacrifice, so why not associate the goat with something else?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A lot of the *modern* associations of Satan with goats come from the idea of Baphomet, though. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Baphomet ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eliphas Levi, undoubtedly influenced by earlier associations of goats with witchcraft,  propounded the idea of a goat-headed deity, which he identified with the Baphomet purportedly worshiped by the Templars:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The symbolic head of the goat of Mendes is occasionally given to this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; figure, and it is then the Baphomet of the Templars and the Word of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Gnostics, bizarre images which became scarecrows for the vulgar&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after affording food for reflection to sages – innocent hieroglyphs of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thought and faith which have been a pretext for the rage of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; persecutions. How pitiable are men in their ignorance, but how they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; would despise themselves if only they came to know!&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*Dogma et Rituel de la Haute Magie* (translated)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is from Levi that we received the most stereotypical Satanic goat image, a semi-nude individual with male, female, and goat attributes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;! ![Hive][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These ideas have had a tremendous influence on modern perception of the devil as possessed of goat attributes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/uIeQI.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7760" PostHistoryTypeId="8" PostId="1860" RevisionGUID="893883dd-efc9-44c2-8752-a7a6bb74bc87" CreationDate="2016-08-16T08:28:59.043" UserId="2687" Comment="Rollback to [8274f07e-76b6-4be2-be7f-61704065e329]" Text="Several reasons&#xD;&#xA;===============&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reasons for the associations of goats with Satan vary. Some are quite ancient, while others are of more recent vintage. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Parable of the Sheep and the Goats&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sheep are loyal. They follow the Son of God, metaphorically a shepherd. Goats, on the other hand, are disobedient  and difficult. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he will sit on his glorious throne.  All the nations will be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sheep on his right and the goats on his left.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;*NIV, Matthew 25:31-33* &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We see here that goats are being used as metaphor for sin in Matthew, very early in the development of the Christian church. In setting the sheep on his right hand, Jesus gives them a favored position. The goats, on the other hand....&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you&#xD;&#xA;&gt; did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;*NIV, Matthew 25:41-43* &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The scapegoat&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Aaron shall offer the goat on which the lot for the LORD fell,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and make it a sin offering. 10&quot;But the goat on which the lot for the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; scapegoat fell shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make&#xD;&#xA;&gt; atonement upon it, to send it into the wilderness as the scapegoat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;*NASB, Leviticus 16:10* &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems like that the idea of the goat as a repository for sin may have outweighed the knowledge that there was also a goat being sacrificed to  God. After all, presumably a calf or bull is one's richest sacrifice, so why not associate the goat with something else?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A lot of the *modern* associations of Satan with goats come from the idea of Baphomet, though. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Baphomet ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eliphas Levi, undoubtedly influenced by earlier associations of goats with witchcraft,  propounded the idea of a goat-headed deity, which he identified with the Baphomet purportedly worshiped by the Templars:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The symbolic head of the goat of Mendes is occasionally given to this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; figure, and it is then the Baphomet of the Templars and the Word of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Gnostics, bizarre images which became scarecrows for the vulgar&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after affording food for reflection to sages – innocent hieroglyphs of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thought and faith which have been a pretext for the rage of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; persecutions. How pitiable are men in their ignorance, but how they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; would despise themselves if only they came to know!&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*Dogma et Rituel de la Haute Magie* (translated)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is from Levi that we received the most stereotypical Satanic goat image, a semi-nude individual with male, female, and goat attributes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Hive][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These ideas have had a tremendous influence on modern perception of the devil as possessed of goat attributes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/uIeQI.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7761" PostHistoryTypeId="8" PostId="1860" RevisionGUID="d3578fe9-aa12-4dc4-a909-633d6a6c19d0" CreationDate="2016-08-16T08:29:25.047" UserId="2687" Comment="Rollback to [dcdc8802-e0a9-4285-8fd7-9e95421c5dcc]" Text="Several reasons&#xD;&#xA;===============&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reasons for the associations of goats with Satan vary. Some are quite ancient, while others are of more recent vintage. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Parable of the Sheep and the Goats&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sheep are loyal. They follow the Son of God, metaphorically a shepherd. Goats, on the other hand, are disobedient  and difficult. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he will sit on his glorious throne.  All the nations will be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sheep on his right and the goats on his left.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;*NIV, Matthew 25:31-33* &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We see here that goats are being used as metaphor for sin in Matthew, very early in the development of the Christian church. In setting the sheep on his right hand, Jesus gives them a favored position. The goats, on the other hand....&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you&#xD;&#xA;&gt; did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;*NIV, Matthew 25:41-43* &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The scapegoat&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Aaron shall offer the goat on which the lot for the LORD fell,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and make it a sin offering. 10&quot;But the goat on which the lot for the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; scapegoat fell shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make&#xD;&#xA;&gt; atonement upon it, to send it into the wilderness as the scapegoat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;*NASB, Leviticus 16:10* &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems like that the idea of the goat as a repository for sin may have outweighed the knowledge that there was also a goat being sacrificed to  God. After all, presumably a calf or bull is one's richest sacrifice, so why not associate the goat with something else?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A lot of the *modern* associations of Satan with goats come from the idea of Baphomet, though. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Baphomet ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eliphas Levi, undoubtedly influenced by earlier associations of goats with witchcraft,  propounded the idea of a goat-headed deity, which he identified with the Baphomet purportedly worshiped by the Templars:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The symbolic head of the goat of Mendes is occasionally given to this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; figure, and it is then the Baphomet of the Templars and the Word of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Gnostics, bizarre images which became scarecrows for the vulgar&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after affording food for reflection to sages – innocent hieroglyphs of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thought and faith which have been a pretext for the rage of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; persecutions. How pitiable are men in their ignorance, but how they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; would despise themselves if only they came to know!&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*Dogma et Rituel de la Haute Magie* (translated)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is from Levi that we received the most stereotypical Satanic goat image, a semi-nude individual with male, female, and goat attributes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;! ![Hive][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These ideas have had a tremendous influence on modern perception of the devil as possessed of goat attributes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/uIeQI.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7762" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1885" RevisionGUID="1d610dc4-f9b9-425d-84d1-e44e9927f035" CreationDate="2016-08-16T09:25:43.740" UserId="2774" Text="I fear behind this question lie the translation used... Angels do not overspeak, that said. There is reference of them here and there, but they keep their angelic mouth shut. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Genesis 3-23/24 in king James translation&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And that is the same passage in the New World Translation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 23 With that Jehovah God expelled him from the garden of Eʹden+ to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. 24  So he drove the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; man out, and he posted at the east of the garden of Eʹden the cherubs+&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning continuously to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; guard the way to the tree of life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And in the Jerusalem Bible:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 23. So Yahweh God expelled him from the garden of Eden, to till the soil from which he had been taken. 24. He banished the man, and in front of the garden of Eden he posted the great winged creatures and the fiery flashing sword, to guard the way to the tree of life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So trying to know how they are addressing God is merely problematic, because the various translators are not agreeing between them on the name of God, far from.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;That said, we have that is Tobias 12-15, I keep using King James translation only:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I am the angel Raphael, one of the seven who stand before the Lord.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another Angel talking in Matthiew, this time he uses Holy Spirit:    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary your wife, for that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit; she will bear a son,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their sins.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Same story in Luke:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the house of David, and the virgin's name was Mary.&quot; And coming to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her, he said, &quot;Hail, Full of Grace! The Lord is with you.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In summary, there is Angelic references in the Bible but most of the time they do not talk and are either referenced or simply act as background characters. And when they do talk, they rarely use the name of God, and when they do the translators use a different name.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;There is the high probability their is out there some hebraic/jewish books being more precise, but I do suspect those books would fall also in the category &quot;depend the author&quot;." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7763" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1866" RevisionGUID="8d7e5a95-06a7-40f2-91d8-4090707645ac" CreationDate="2016-08-16T20:33:16.583" UserId="967" Comment="added 685 characters in body" Text="Questions about the Shamanistic religion in Mongolia. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mongolian shamanism is an all-encompassing system of belief that includes medicine, religion, a cult of nature, and a cult of ancestor worship. Central to the system were the activities of male and female intercessors between the human world and the spirit world, shamans (böö) and shamanesses (udgan). They were not the only ones to communicate with the spirit world: nobles and clan leaders also performed spiritual functions, as did commoners, though the hierarchy of Mongolian clan-based society was reflected in the manner of worship as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Wikipedia][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_shamanism" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7764" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1866" RevisionGUID="8d7e5a95-06a7-40f2-91d8-4090707645ac" CreationDate="2016-08-16T20:33:16.583" Comment="Proposed by 967 approved by 42 edit id of 347" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7765" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1867" RevisionGUID="6f56560a-0911-49e5-b14f-dceb8366b805" CreationDate="2016-08-16T20:33:35.130" UserId="967" Comment="edited body" Text="The shamanistic folk religion practiced in Mongolia and the surrounding areas.  Also called Tengerism, or Böö mörgöl." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7766" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1867" RevisionGUID="6f56560a-0911-49e5-b14f-dceb8366b805" CreationDate="2016-08-16T20:33:35.130" Comment="Proposed by 967 approved by 62, 42 edit id of 348" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7767" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1886" RevisionGUID="1360cecb-cd6f-4cc9-aa28-b1a744dd3865" CreationDate="2016-08-17T00:47:53.257" UserId="123" Text="Aaru, the Field of Reeds was the Egyptian idea of paradise. Food was unlimited, and menial funeral statues could gather it for you.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, it is described as a [“mirror image of one's life on earth”]( http://www.ancient.eu/article/877/). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yet, Egypt’s real fields of reeds, in the delta valley, where more like **infernos**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They where infested by bugs, mosquitoes, and [snakes]( http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/bestiary/snake.htm).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dua-Khety warns his son about the hard life of reed workers who were chronically affected by things like [malaria and tuberculosis]( http://blogs.plos.org/everyone/2013/06/26/malaria-tuberculosis-caused-death-on-the-ancient-nile/) …&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From [Kheti]( http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/texts/instructions_of_kheti.htm) we have&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt;- “The **reed-cutter** goes downstream to the Delta to fetch himself arrows. &#xD;&#xA; - He must work excessively in his activity. &#xD;&#xA; - When the **gnats sting him and the sand fleas bite him** as well, &#xD;&#xA; - then he is judged.“&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or [alternatively]( http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/bestiary/mosquito.htm) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - The **reed-cutter** travels to the Delta to get arrows;&#xD;&#xA; - When he has done more than his arms can do, &#xD;&#xA; - **Mosquitoes have slain him, Gnats have slaughtered him**, &#xD;&#xA; - He is quite worn out.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The idea of dead people being affected by decease may seem trivial, but the dead were corporeal, though [finer]( http://www.historyextra.com/article/ancient-egypt/guidebook-ancient-egyptian-afterlife), than in their previous life, and needed sustenance. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, the Fields of Reeds should be percieved as horrendous. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anyone know why they are the basis of their paradise?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7768" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1886" RevisionGUID="1360cecb-cd6f-4cc9-aa28-b1a744dd3865" CreationDate="2016-08-17T00:47:53.257" UserId="123" Text="Why are the &quot;Fields of Reeds&quot; the Egyptian paradise?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7769" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1886" RevisionGUID="1360cecb-cd6f-4cc9-aa28-b1a744dd3865" CreationDate="2016-08-17T00:47:53.257" UserId="123" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7770" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1887" RevisionGUID="b4fb24bb-087f-4524-b4a0-e36ab01770ba" CreationDate="2016-08-17T07:37:37.580" UserId="2774" Text="Well it depends which source you want to follow.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;If it is Plutarque, then he is dead, like totally. &lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now Euripides wrote a tragedy where Herakles free Theseus from the Hades, in `Herakles` one of his tragedy. For what I recall, the events are in Thebes (the Greek city not the Egyptian one, obviously) where Lycus usurpated the throne/power and act as a tyrant. Herakles wife is there and Lycus is trying to kill her and her sons but as Herakles is in Hell she has high difficulty to defend herself. Finally Herakles comes and kill Lycus, but also being enraged his wife and sons...&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now Theseus which is as Herakles a good guy spending his time killing bad people knowing the usurpation of Lycus comes to Thebes to kill him, but learn Herakles did it and also his family. He so cheers him and they both go to Athens.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;That is from memory only. But it is probably remotely accurate. Think you can find the tragedy in any online library like Gutenberg." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7772" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1888" RevisionGUID="c1172714-a6ac-4dbb-800c-d0686a0375de" CreationDate="2016-08-17T13:53:02.073" UserId="2875" Text="The Romans thought that the Greek gods needed some changes, and adopted them to settle religious feuds. The Greeks took Athena's power as a war goddess and took that away, which made the Greeks extremely angry. Athena HAD been the patron of Athens. Anyway.The Greeks respected the might of the Romans, and were a bit angry with their changing the gods personalities. The Romans respected the Greek culture and ways of life, and almost mimicked the greek ways. However, they frowned on the Trojan wars. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7773" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1888" RevisionGUID="72f8a2c8-fe25-4c0b-9c99-f770783bf546" CreationDate="2016-08-17T22:29:38.940" UserId="967" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body" Text="The Romans thought that the Greek gods needed some changes, and adopted them to settle religious feuds. The Romans took Athena's power as a war goddess and took that away, which made the Greeks extremely angry. Athena had been the patron of Athens. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greeks respected the might of the Romans, but were a bit angry with their changing the gods personalities. The Romans respected the Greek culture and ways of life, and almost mimicked the Greek ways. However, they frowned on the Trojan wars. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7774" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1889" RevisionGUID="724a8276-be87-4474-976a-279f1b60aeac" CreationDate="2016-08-18T05:32:45.707" UserId="2877" Text="We actually have 12 planets in our solar system including dwarf planets not 15 brody Also pythonmaster these are people's interpretation of what they think to be correct.. everyone wants to disprove someone  ( put themselves first ) instead of working together. Since these people took so much time to detail and considering they would consider our sun a &quot;star&quot; and not their &quot;sun&quot; ( if they even distinguished that difference like we do ) because they are not from this system and we are the 7th station and why does no one point out the 13th planet on the tablet maybe they count the planet that is now the inner belt? But don't get me wrong that dot was no mistake and is not talked about. The nibiru system ( we getting crazy now ) is supposedly a ultraviolet system with many objects rotating around a dwarf star ( one theory ) that emits no visible light and ultraviolet rays which some believe is why their eyes are always so large when carved into these tablets. ( highly controversial, I know ) but at the end of the day I think we still haven't the slightest clue about any of this and need a more public space program that will not hide information and block what we are &quot;allowed&quot; to view in the night sky." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7775" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1889" RevisionGUID="cd805950-670d-4e2b-821f-9ff4a544e17d" CreationDate="2016-08-18T05:38:13.537" UserId="2877" Comment="added 48 characters in body" Text="We actually have 12 planets in our solar system including dwarf planets not 15 brody Also pythonmaster these are people's interpretation of what they think to be correct.. everyone wants to disprove someone  ( put themselves first ) instead of working together. Since these people took so much time to detail and considering they would consider our sun a &quot;star&quot; and not their &quot;sun&quot; ( if they even distinguished that difference like we do ) because they are not from this system and we are the 7th station and why does no one point out the 13th planet on the tablet maybe they count the planet that is now the inner belt? But don't get me wrong that dot was no mistake and is not talked about. The nibiru system ( we getting crazy now ) is supposedly a ultraviolet system with many objects rotating around a dwarf star ( one theory ) that emits no visible light and ultraviolet rays ( could  be the &quot;sun&quot; with rays coming off it ) which some believe is why their eyes are always so large when carved into these tablets. ( highly controversial, I know ) but at the end of the day I think we still haven't the slightest clue about any of this and need a more public space program that will not hide information and block what we are &quot;allowed&quot; to view in the night sky." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7776" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="993" RevisionGUID="488ea69e-5fa6-4794-80e2-b8fcbbadee09" CreationDate="2016-08-18T09:29:17.053" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="deleted 14 characters in body" Text="Since the questioner said that his inquiry was inspired by my blog post that featured a fiery wheel (see above) and since Anna quoted from my post and showed my photo of that wheel, I figure that I'd better address his question! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A wheel, especially a spoked one in the sky as in this case, is of course commonly a symbol of the sun. In this connection, Kerenyi in his *The Gods of the Greeks* (pp. 159-60) penned a conclusory statement, &quot;One can easily recognise in the whole story the punishment of an older, savage sun-god who had to had to be tamed beneath the rule of Zeus.&quot; This might be the case since Zeus was in the business of absorbing other deities and their functions, but Kerenyi points to no sources or other grounds for this conclusion. The article that Anna quotes in her answer above, which relies on Cook's *Zeus,* takes the same view. There is indeed significant iconography showing the wheel to be flaming (just search on Google for Ixion images), so this image appears to have been popular. On the other hand, Robert Graves (*Greek Myths,* 63.1-2) goes off in another direction showing echoes of Frazer, claiming that Ixion was an oak-king who married a moon-goddess (Dia), and was then slain in a ritual involving him being spread-eagled on a tree, which image later became Ixion on the wheel. He also claims that old kings called themselves Zeus and their marriage to the moon-goddess displeased the later Olympian priests, hence the hubris theme leading to the punishment. Graves also links Ixion's name to vegetation, not anything solar. So no solar motif for Graves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Turning to the actual sources, from what I see they don't seem to be stressing a solar theme. Although the *Scholiast* on Pindar's Pythians mentions that the wheel was fiery, *Pindar himself* (Pythian Ode 2.39-44), as well as Hyginus (*Fabulae* 62), Diodorus (*Historical Library* 4.69.5), Apollodorus (*Library,* Epit. 1.20), Virgil (*Georgics* 4.484; *Aeneid* 6.601), and Lucian (*Dialogues of the Gods* VI) never mention fire; they just mention the wheel spinning/whirling, not necessarily going across the sky (although that could be the case), and that the wheel turns due to the force of the winds (not its own power, as sun-gods do). To my mind, this, plus the fact that some later sources (Hyginus; Virgil, *Aeneid*; Lucian) felt comfortable placing the wheel in Hades rather than in the sky, suggests that a solar symbolism of the wheel is not the main point here, at least as the story appears in these later versions which differ from the presumed versions that Kerenyi and Cook were talking about. Thus, Kerenyi and Cook could be right in the sense that we may just be seeing later versions that mask the original, apples vs. oranges to some extent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Based on what we do have for sources, for these authors the wheel and its spinning appear to symbolize primarily the passage of time into eternity, showing that Ixion's punishment is for eternity. Most of the sources (Pindar, Diodorus, Hyginus, and Lucian) stress that the wheel is supposed to turn for eternity. This has a rough parallel in the punishment of Prometheus for his act of hubris, which likewise was supposed to be eternal. Finally, Pindar mentions that the wheel has 4 spokes, which normally symbolizes dividing the passage of time into measures (seasons), which are endless cycles. That is, the hub, which appears not to move, represents eternity, while the outer part with the spokes moving represents time passing. See, e.g., *The Book of Symbols,* A. Ronnberg, ed., p. 504.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't think the wheel here has anything to do with the earthly punishment of being broken on the wheel. In that punishment, the victim dies within 1-3 days, whereas Ixion's punishment is eternal and none of the accounts has him dying. None of the accounts has him being broken or otherwise physically abused while on the wheel; except, of course, for the eternal flames in any versions of the story which have fire on the wheel, but that is very different from being broken on the wheel. Finally, based on my prior research, I don't recall this form of punishment being used in the ancient world. (I didn't research this point here since it was not mentioned in your original question, and was raised only in another answer above.)&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7777" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1890" RevisionGUID="4247bbf8-e0e4-4a01-a74c-e6708585d11e" CreationDate="2016-08-18T13:20:28.000" UserId="666" Text="You are thinking about a story referenced in the *[Húsdrápa][1]*, which Snorri excerpted in his *Edda*. It plays out more or less as you described, except Heimdall does not catch Loki in the act, but is asked by Freya to retrieve Brisingamen.  The only detail to add was that evidently Heimdall and Loki fought as seals. That is really all we know about it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further than this, as have already been noted, Loki and Heimdall will fight and kill eachother at Ragnarök. They also interact in the *[Lokasenna][2]*, a poem where Loki shows up at a party and insults the other gods. Heimdall does not seem to be under more fire than his fellow gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%BAsdr%C3%A1pa&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lokasenna" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7778" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1891" RevisionGUID="dff0d7ba-3edf-43ef-bf01-8e0093a8d6be" CreationDate="2016-08-18T13:36:49.413" UserId="666" Text="There is their visit to Regin in *Reginsmál*; this is part of the background for the story of Sigurd, known from the story fo the Völsungs. Odin, Loki and Hœnir are on a journey. Loki kills what he thinks is an otter eating a salmon; the other two approve and they make abag of the skin. Later, they visit Hreidmar, who was the father of Otr, who had taken the form of the otter. Hreidmar and Regin capture the gods, and they have to ransom themselves with gold, and Loki is sent to retrieve it. He does this by catching the third brother Andvari, and takes all his gold, including a ring. Andvari then curses the gold, and Loki hands it over so the gods are released.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also the story about how the giant Svaðilfari and his horse were building the walls of Asgard: if he could finish in less than a year, he would get the Sun, Moon, and Freya. Loki cheated him of his payment by shapeshifting into a mare and luring his horse away; the end result of this was Sleipnir, Odin's horse. Not exactly an &quot;adventure together&quot;, but Loki is at least an ally.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, there is the story of how Odin, Hœnir and &quot;Lóðurr&quot; created the race of men. Odin gave them &quot;spirit&quot;, Hœnir &quot;sense&quot; and Lóðurr &quot;blood&quot;. Some scholars have wanted to identify the otherwise unknown Lóðurr with Loki." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7780" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1892" RevisionGUID="21a3f3aa-9f2a-4b37-94f0-dfb991cccbe8" CreationDate="2016-08-19T08:21:08.300" UserId="2878" Text="In Hindu mythology, Trinity was always at a higher level than the lower deities like Indra etc. Vedas recognize the trinity as being superior and there are numerous examples throughout mythology where Indra and others used to reach out to the trinity to help with their problems (usually with some demons etc that got too strong for Indra and others). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There never was a scenario where the trinity and other deities were at the same level either in mythology or in contemporary culture/traditions and then something came to pass that increased the status of trinity. The reason for this is that, in Hindu creationism trinity come into being first. Then they, using their powers, create rest of the universe including the lower deities. The exact process by which the lower deities come into being varies but the important thing being that they are created afterwards and therefore are lower in status. We humans, Indra, rest of the pantheon, demons, what have you can be considered children of trinity (for this discussion).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding the mindset of people, in the vedic times it was a common practice for people to worship both trinity and the lower deities. Trinity were still considered to be at a much higher level but the lower deities were also given their dues. Some of it happened because people feared the lower deities (like losing their crops if Indra gets upset and brings a flood etc, which he could and did) and some of it was just tradition. In summary, the trinity were always considered separate and a much higher entity than the lower deities both in mythology and contemporary culture, but the lower deities were still worshiped as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, to answer your second question, what caused the people to eventually stop worshiping the lower deities (specifically Indra) - If we go by the mythology, this began changing in Treta Yuga when Vishnu incarnated as Krishna. Krishna actively dissuaded people from worshiping lower deities (and any other local gods, forest gods, tree gods, what have you) and exerted strong influence to move people towards monotheism. Gradually people stopped worshiping the lower gods/deities and when Indra got upset and tried to punish people, Krishna protected them from his wrath very publicly to prove his superiority. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then in Geeta, Krishna effectively sealed the deal by explicitly stating that no matter who you worship, you're effectively worshiping the one God, even if by proxy. He also stated that He himself likes the worshipers who understand His true nature (that is, one God) and the worshipers who worshiped him directly got better results than those who did it by proxy. This coupled with Krishna publicly showing people that He can easily protect them from Indra (the king of gods) if they don't worship Indra left no reason for the people to worship any of the lower deities&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There were no &quot;fights&quot; between Trinity and lower deities simply because trinity would simply destroy Indra and others and replace them with their newer versions in a blink of an eye (Shiva literally did that with Kama, no pun intended, when Kama tried to go against him). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, the final nail in the coffin was during the last 2000-3000 years or so when Puranas were finalized and depicted Indra involved in various &quot;ungodly&quot; scandals and then more so in Bhakti kaal when Tulsidas and others further popularized incarnations of Vishnu and Shiva (Ram, Krishna, Hanuman etc). Before this people used to worship Shiva, Vishnu and different variations of adi shakti mata but Bhakti kaal resulted in the further popularization of many of the reincarnations as well. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: The lower deities aren't completely dead, so to say. They're still worshiped in Hawans and rituals and what not as part of tradition. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7781" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1893" RevisionGUID="da89e419-7cda-4088-bd7d-96028a16bfbf" CreationDate="2016-08-19T08:27:44.190" UserId="2878" Text="Most deities in Hindu mythology follow a lifecycle - They come into being, live their lives and then eventually die. They probably don't get sick and &quot;die&quot; in the traditional sense of the word, they just go back to where they came from. The universe itself follows a cycle from birth to death and then birth again. Trinity also follows the cycle of the universe (or multi-verse, as the case may be).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These cycles usually span thousands to hundreds of thousands of years and vary for different gods. The higher you go, the longer the cycle becomes. They're too long to be compared to fertility and seasons and any human related natural/artifical cycles though (for example, Brahma's one day is equal to 10,000 human years, IIRC)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7783" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1895" RevisionGUID="4c666693-1716-4c55-bb40-7ade6a5579c1" CreationDate="2016-08-19T15:45:24.820" UserId="2879" Text="Who carried the bow and see w of Hercules after he died?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7784" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1895" RevisionGUID="4c666693-1716-4c55-bb40-7ade6a5579c1" CreationDate="2016-08-19T15:45:24.820" UserId="2879" Text="Who carried the bow and arrows of Hercules" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7785" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1895" RevisionGUID="4c666693-1716-4c55-bb40-7ade6a5579c1" CreationDate="2016-08-19T15:45:24.820" UserId="2879" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7786" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1896" RevisionGUID="9ef68e38-63d9-4736-b5a7-261e00fb91bd" CreationDate="2016-08-19T15:48:26.577" UserId="721" Text="&gt;  Revelation 12:7-17King James Version (KJV)&#xD;&#xA;7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How do angels fight?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All Christian, Jewish and Islamic authors accepted. Canonical, mystical etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here are some cases of binding I know of:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Revelation 20New International Version (NIV)&#xD;&#xA;The Thousand Years&#xD;&#xA;20 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And in Tobit&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 3 The reek of the fish distressed the demon, who fled through the air to Egypt. Raphael pursued him there, shackled him and strangled him forthwith.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Binding and shackling does seem to be the main way for an angel to deal with an enemy, but are there others? Has an angel ever used a sword for anything but [guarding the way to the Tree of Life?][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%203:24&amp;version=NIV" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7787" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1896" RevisionGUID="9ef68e38-63d9-4736-b5a7-261e00fb91bd" CreationDate="2016-08-19T15:48:26.577" UserId="721" Text="How do judeo-christian angels fight?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7788" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1896" RevisionGUID="9ef68e38-63d9-4736-b5a7-261e00fb91bd" CreationDate="2016-08-19T15:48:26.577" UserId="721" Text="|angels|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7789" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1897" RevisionGUID="063abce3-095a-4b10-813e-eaf5b47dca4b" CreationDate="2016-08-19T16:15:14.653" UserId="2774" Text="We do not know how... WE know they do. Take a look here:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 36 Then the angel of the Lord went out and put to death a hundred and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eighty-five thousand in the Assyrian camp. When the people got up the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; next morning—there were all the dead bodies!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;185 000 Assyrian slain by ONE angel... Isaih by the way. But how... Sword? Mace? Magic? Thermonuclear weapon? &lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And obviously Jacob vs the angel (Genesis 3-24/25):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; breaking of the day.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as he wrestled with him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A simple touch and Jacob is beaten.But this is the extend of what the Bible says." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7790" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1898" RevisionGUID="c396784e-5ecc-4c34-9db8-37b9daf7ef28" CreationDate="2016-08-19T17:09:03.520" UserId="42" Text="According to Herodotus, (one of) Hercules bows was inherited by his son Scythes, who is said to be the forebear of the Scythians:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hereupon he strung one of his bows- up to that time he had carried two- and showed her how to fasten the belt. Then he gave both bow and belt into her hands. Now the belt had a golden goblet attached to its clasp. So after he had given them to her, he went his way; and the woman, when her children grew to manhood, first gave them severally their names. One she called Agathyrsus, one Gelonus, and the other, who was the youngest, Scythes. Then she remembered the instructions she had received from Hercules, and, in obedience to his orders, she put her sons to the test. Two of them, Agathyrsus and Gelonus, proving unequal to the task enjoined, their mother sent them out of the land; Scythes, the youngest, succeeded, and so he was allowed to remain. From Scythes, the son of Hercules, were descended the after kings of Scythia  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Herodotus, [Histories 4](http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.4.iv.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To clarify, this is a *Greek* legend about the origin of the Scythians, *not* a Scythian legend.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a reference to the abilities of the Scythians in archery, especially horse archery, a skill which would continue to be key to many groups of eurasian steppe nomads (ex. the Mongols, the Huns, etc.) for a very long time." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7791" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="114" RevisionGUID="761ea6d0-110c-4779-97f6-72b13fa95371" CreationDate="2016-08-20T21:51:35.890" UserId="967" Comment="added 10 characters in body; edited title" Text="It is weird to see two different mythologies so closely related to each other. Roman mythology seems to have some Greek mythology and vice versa. For example:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greek - Zeus, Roman - Jupiter&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Two of the same gods with different names. Much of the two mythologies are closely related to each other and it can be confusing to know which is which. Why are the two mythologies so closely related to each other and what is the major thing that makes them two different mythologies?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7792" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="114" RevisionGUID="761ea6d0-110c-4779-97f6-72b13fa95371" CreationDate="2016-08-20T21:51:35.890" UserId="967" Comment="added 10 characters in body; edited title" Text="Why is Roman Mythology so similar to Greek Mythology or vice versa?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7793" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="29" RevisionGUID="2be830e5-1575-4f5e-91c7-f3288be29e30" CreationDate="2016-08-20T21:54:30.563" UserId="967" Comment="added 24 characters in body; edited title" Text="Heracles and Perseus were two well known sons of Zeus fathered by mortal women.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How many other **male** offspring did Zeus father by **human women**?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Included names should be sourced back only to Zeus, no *&quot;of uncertain parentage&quot;* folks included please." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7794" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="29" RevisionGUID="2be830e5-1575-4f5e-91c7-f3288be29e30" CreationDate="2016-08-20T21:54:30.563" UserId="967" Comment="added 24 characters in body; edited title" Text="How many sons did Zeus father through mortal women?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7795" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="154" RevisionGUID="63eae11e-fdb9-47ae-ac73-e6d71bde3bc4" CreationDate="2016-08-20T21:59:59.687" UserId="967" Comment="added the name" Text="The God Thor, in many stories I have been exposed to, has a hammer called Mjölnir that provides superpowers. In some versions of stories the powers are stronger then a God alone. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where did Mjölnir come from? Who made it, or how was it made?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7796" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="154" RevisionGUID="63eae11e-fdb9-47ae-ac73-e6d71bde3bc4" CreationDate="2016-08-20T21:59:59.687" UserId="967" Comment="added the name" Text="Who made Mjölnir?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7797" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="37" RevisionGUID="619b021a-01b7-4413-8544-d3d9c32fb000" CreationDate="2016-08-20T22:04:46.850" UserId="967" Comment="added 88 characters in body" Text="Theseus's paternity seems to be in question. He seems to be a demi-god, as the son of Poseidon. But he was also the son of Aegeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who was his father?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7798" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="79" RevisionGUID="3cd9eed1-a7c0-451b-b344-1c42970eefd7" CreationDate="2016-08-20T22:10:48.510" UserId="967" Comment="added 16 characters in body; edited tags" Text="In greek mythology, Core and Persephone were interchangeable as Hades' wife.  Which is it? Core or Persephone?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7799" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="79" RevisionGUID="3cd9eed1-a7c0-451b-b344-1c42970eefd7" CreationDate="2016-08-20T22:10:48.510" UserId="967" Comment="added 16 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|greek|hades|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7800" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1548" RevisionGUID="3f24021b-0323-4f60-8324-4d05f37dcad0" CreationDate="2016-08-20T22:11:10.097" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|demi-gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7802" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1817" RevisionGUID="e7ad277e-4dad-403d-a347-7cd918dfc4b5" CreationDate="2016-08-21T08:57:38.497" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="7803" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1899" RevisionGUID="e32c217a-e01e-4794-8df9-9fd1b5da075a" CreationDate="2016-08-21T11:25:09.620" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="As we all probably know,the Greco-Roman and the Norse gods were,to put it in a mild manner,'lustful'.They had extramarital affairs,took on numerous lovers without before marraige and even rape others.In addition to that,they practised a lot of incest (in this context,the word 'incest' excludes brothers and sisters falling in love,marrying,etc).Are there any instances where Egyptian gods also are prosmicious?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7804" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1899" RevisionGUID="e32c217a-e01e-4794-8df9-9fd1b5da075a" CreationDate="2016-08-21T11:25:09.620" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Are there any instances where the Egyptian gods are promiscuous?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7805" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1899" RevisionGUID="e32c217a-e01e-4794-8df9-9fd1b5da075a" CreationDate="2016-08-21T11:25:09.620" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="|gods|myth-identification|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7807" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1901" RevisionGUID="0ea5f34e-ebcd-407b-a699-80eebbff5c7b" CreationDate="2016-08-21T23:26:50.887" UserId="292" Text="If you look in Faulkes' translation of the Poetic Edda the story can be found on pp. 96-7, in the section of Skaldskaparmal that explains kennings for gold. The story begins when Loki cuts off the hair of Thor's wife Sif and has to appease the angry thunder-god. ([A link][1] to another translation. Scroll down to section XXXV.)  &#xD;&#xA;Loki goes to the sons of Ivalde, who make golden hair for Sif and treasures for Odin and Freyr. That was fine, but then he bets Brokk and Sindri they can't make better things, and wagers his head that they can't. He turns himself into a fly to hinder them, which is why Mjollnir has a short handle, as maam27's quote from Wikipedia relates.  &#xD;&#xA;Characteristically, Loki gets out of the wager by saying the dwarves can have his head as long as they don't cut his neck. (Shades of the [Merchant of Venice][2].) They content themselves with sewing his mouth shut, a fitting punishment.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre05.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Merchant_of_Venice" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7808" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1902" RevisionGUID="d8db2630-d5c7-45f3-b812-40f4dcec751e" CreationDate="2016-08-22T01:18:09.490" UserId="967" Text="So Ouranos was killed by Kronos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When that happened, why didn't the sky just collapse?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7809" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1902" RevisionGUID="d8db2630-d5c7-45f3-b812-40f4dcec751e" CreationDate="2016-08-22T01:18:09.490" UserId="967" Text="Why did the sky exist when it was destroyed?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7810" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1902" RevisionGUID="d8db2630-d5c7-45f3-b812-40f4dcec751e" CreationDate="2016-08-22T01:18:09.490" UserId="967" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7811" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1903" RevisionGUID="6b3333aa-497d-40e6-98a2-9dac8bc1ad81" CreationDate="2016-08-22T07:06:36.867" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="As per most of the stories I know,witches usually burn when they come into contact with water.Why is this so and what is the origin of this myth?Also,why do **witches** burn?What about wizards?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7812" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1903" RevisionGUID="6b3333aa-497d-40e6-98a2-9dac8bc1ad81" CreationDate="2016-08-22T07:06:36.867" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="What is the origin of the myth that witches burn in water?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7813" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1903" RevisionGUID="6b3333aa-497d-40e6-98a2-9dac8bc1ad81" CreationDate="2016-08-22T07:06:36.867" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="|mythical-creatures|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7814" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1903" RevisionGUID="08199f5a-973f-4fb6-9f33-14f2e5b87552" CreationDate="2016-08-22T07:54:43.763" UserId="57" Comment="added 8 characters in body; edited tags; edited tags" Text="As per most of the stories I know, witches usually burn when they come into contact with water. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is this so and what is the origin of this myth? Also,why do **witches** burn? What about wizards?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7815" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1903" RevisionGUID="08199f5a-973f-4fb6-9f33-14f2e5b87552" CreationDate="2016-08-22T07:54:43.763" UserId="57" Comment="added 8 characters in body; edited tags; edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|magic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7816" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1800" RevisionGUID="e1041955-7c0e-4f5b-a65c-944eaa30ca36" CreationDate="2016-08-22T08:56:29.220" UserId="57" Comment="added 3 characters in body" Text="Tawaret is arguably one of the most popular goddesses of the Egyptian pantheon. Although much about her consorts is known, nothing is said about the Hippo Goddess' parentage and I would like to find out about it.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7817" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1800" RevisionGUID="7556c8b2-72ef-48d0-9bd7-d1d597c877df" CreationDate="2016-08-22T10:31:04.617" UserId="57" Comment="Taweret seems to be the more commonly used spelling" Text="Taweret is arguably one of the most popular goddesses of the Egyptian pantheon. Although much about her consorts is known, nothing is said about the Hippo Goddess' parentage and I would like to find out about it.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7818" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1800" RevisionGUID="7556c8b2-72ef-48d0-9bd7-d1d597c877df" CreationDate="2016-08-22T10:31:04.617" UserId="57" Comment="Taweret seems to be the more commonly used spelling" Text="Who are the parents of Taweret?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7819" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1904" RevisionGUID="b681ad23-ab48-45d5-b13e-e27172f89c6a" CreationDate="2016-08-22T12:25:27.733" UserId="2774" Text="She is surely the daughter of Ra. Not sure who the mother could be. But that the same with Sekhmet. Another daughter of Ra without a defined mother. Chance for the mother could roll on Hathor, you often find Hathor and Taweret together, but considering Hathor could also be Ra's daughter... Or Heset which is more or then Ra's traditional wife. Ra's spouse is so an incredibly unsure topic." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7820" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1902" RevisionGUID="c88593d8-977e-486f-898d-5a429adf4bfc" CreationDate="2016-08-22T21:35:07.237" UserId="967" Comment="added 14 characters in body; edited title" Text="So Ouranos was castrated by Kronos and Titans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When that happened, why didn't the sky just collapse?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7821" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1902" RevisionGUID="c88593d8-977e-486f-898d-5a429adf4bfc" CreationDate="2016-08-22T21:35:07.237" UserId="967" Comment="added 14 characters in body; edited title" Text="Why did the sky exist when Ouranos was castrated?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7827" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1906" RevisionGUID="1199546c-a6a1-45e8-8984-764236b8cf68" CreationDate="2016-08-23T17:59:47.217" UserId="2890" Text="Does &quot;Viking mythology&quot; and &quot;Norse mythology&quot; mean the same, or are there any differences?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Norse deities were: Odin, Thor, Heimdall... Does it mean, that the Viking deities were them too?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7828" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1906" RevisionGUID="1199546c-a6a1-45e8-8984-764236b8cf68" CreationDate="2016-08-23T17:59:47.217" UserId="2890" Text="Is &quot;Viking mythology&quot; the same as &quot;Norse mythology&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7829" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1906" RevisionGUID="1199546c-a6a1-45e8-8984-764236b8cf68" CreationDate="2016-08-23T17:59:47.217" UserId="2890" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7830" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="451" RevisionGUID="25c7f783-af6c-425a-b0ca-ab14b44753ce" CreationDate="2016-08-23T21:45:00.923" UserId="967" Comment="added 243 characters in body" Text="For questions linked to the area between Tigris and Euphrates, corresponding to modern-day Iraq. See also the sumeria tag. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They used Cuneiform to write, and envisioned the universe as a closed dome surrounded by a primordial saltwater sea." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7831" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="451" RevisionGUID="25c7f783-af6c-425a-b0ca-ab14b44753ce" CreationDate="2016-08-23T21:45:00.923" Comment="Proposed by 967 approved by -1 edit id of 350" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7832" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="451" RevisionGUID="7523b09f-ddca-4bea-aa54-d78b01f88564" CreationDate="2016-08-23T21:45:00.923" UserId="42" Comment="Removed the cosmology bits, as they seemed specific to Sumer." Text="For questions related to the area between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, corresponding to modern-day Iraq and Syria. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Considered a &quot;Cradle of Civilization&quot;, this area was home to the Sumerian, Akkadian, Babylonian, and Assyrian.  The first true written language was invented here, in the form of [cuneiform](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuneiform_script).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See also: [tag:sumerian]." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7833" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1907" RevisionGUID="3d77dde3-f5e3-4e89-ba9e-522303bf000d" CreationDate="2016-08-23T23:41:27.337" UserId="292" Text="A &quot;Viking&quot; was a a warrior who went raiding abroad. (See the [Jorvik site][1] for more on this.) They were probably the most famous medieval Scandinavians, but they were a small subset of all the Norse people.  &#xD;&#xA;Having said that, warrior gods would have been closest to their hearts, and [Michael Enright][2] has theorized that the rise of the god Odin was linked to the cultural and religious [rise of warbands][3] with a charismatic leader. (You'll notice on the show Vikings that Ragnar Lothrbrok has a close connection to Odin.)  &#xD;&#xA;So while farmers would have mainly worshipped Frey or Thor, and merchants and sailors probably focused on Njord, warriors certainly focused on Odin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://jorvik-viking-centre.co.uk/who-were-the-vikings/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.ecu.edu/cs-cas/history/Enright.cfm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.academia.edu/3240658/Michael_Enright_Lady_With_A_Mead_Cup" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7834" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1908" RevisionGUID="d5966edf-bd8f-4ca9-b636-e26460c540c9" CreationDate="2016-08-24T02:01:17.537" UserId="2892" Text="[Snorri Sturluson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snorri_Sturluson) would likely have had some thoughts on the subject.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Norse Mythology generally refers to stories about the Gods and Giants, codified first in the [Poetic Edda](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda), and later in the [Prose Edda](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prose_Edda). *(There are several English translations of both, but my favorite is [Kevin Crossley-Holland's &quot;The Norse Myths&quot;](http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/497366.The_Norse_Myths).)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Viking Mythology&quot;, if I understand your meaning, would likely refer to the [Sagas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saga), which are often, but not exclusively, generational stories of heroes. Many of the [Icelandic Sagas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagas_of_Icelanders) are concerned with the history of the settlement of the island. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I bring up Sturluson because both the Prose Edda, and sagas such as [Egil's Saga](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egil's_Saga) are attributed to him. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7835" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1909" RevisionGUID="2161c512-4fc7-45cc-a683-b1a025a3ec6a" CreationDate="2016-08-24T02:33:59.353" UserId="2892" Text="Because Ouranous actually *is* the sky, in the same way that Gaia is the literal earth. [His name means &quot;sky&quot;.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranus_%28mythology%29)  You can look for a parallel with the Norse [Ymir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ymir), where they use his body parts to create the universe.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: Kronos means &quot;time&quot;, which is interesting because time is, in some sense, a function of distance, which requires matter and space. (i.e. He is the son of the sky and the earth, void and matter.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7837" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1909" RevisionGUID="49d51fe0-2cd5-4d27-8a91-a89cf95f27d3" CreationDate="2016-08-24T13:14:09.813" UserId="2892" Comment="added 56 characters in body" Text="Because Ouranous actually *is* the sky, in the same way that Gaia is the literal earth. [His name means &quot;sky&quot;.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranus_%28mythology%29)  You can look for a parallel with the Norse [Ymir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ymir), where they use his body parts to create the universe.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: Kronos means &quot;time&quot;, which is interesting because time is, in some sense, a function of distance, which requires matter and space. (i.e. He is the son of the sky and the earth, void and matter.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Name meanings are very important in Greek Mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7838" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1909" RevisionGUID="1feb57f0-6a93-4c68-9085-8cb64ec85088" CreationDate="2016-08-24T13:28:52.063" UserId="2892" Comment="added 132 characters in body" Text="Because Ouranous actually *is* the sky, in the same way that Gaia is the literal earth. [His name means &quot;sky&quot;.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranus_%28mythology%29)  You can look for a parallel with the Norse [Ymir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ymir), where they use his body parts to create the universe.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Castration is generally viewed as a curtailing of power, thus the act is symbolic of transfer of power to the next generation.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: Kronos means &quot;time&quot;, which is interesting because time is, in some sense, a function of distance, which requires matter and space. (i.e. He is the son of the sky and the earth, void and matter.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Name meanings are very important in Greek Mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7839" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1910" RevisionGUID="bafc998e-a1a4-4acb-a74b-f429d8b744a2" CreationDate="2016-08-24T17:37:49.617" UserId="2892" Text="This is a deceptively complex question, but [Vishnu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vishnu) may be a good place to start.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of the creation/destruction cycle of the universe, Vishnu would die and be reborn an infinite number of times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there is another aspect involving [incarnation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarnation). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The hero [Rama](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rama) is an incarnation, or [avatar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar), of Vishnu.  Rama is born, fulfills his purpose (in this case, defeating the demon king [Ravana](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravana) so that he may be reunited with his wife [Sita](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sita),) and eventually dies by abandoning his mortal body.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I mention the Rama/Sita story particularly because there is very likely a fertility element involved in their cycle of separation and reunion. &quot;Sita&quot; literally means &quot;furrow&quot;, which refers both to the furrows in the earth used for planting seed, and to the the vulva, which itself a type of furrow. Sita is considered to be the daughter of the Earth Goddess [Bhūmi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bh%C5%ABmi), and there are references to a fertility goddess names Sita prior to the [Ramayana of Valmiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramayana).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that the [Persephone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persephone) story also involves separation and reunification, in this case with her mother [Demeter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demeter), who is also an earth goddess associated with agriculture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------------&#xD;&#xA;*For Westerners interested in reading more about Rama, Sita and Ravana, I highly recommend the [William Buck translation](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1785217), which eliminates the repetitions in the religious text, and makes the core story more accessible to a wider audience.*" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7840" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1910" RevisionGUID="278b8fe9-e001-4e7d-b265-661468c77694" CreationDate="2016-08-24T17:44:16.257" UserId="2892" Comment="added 96 characters in body" Text="This is a deceptively complex question, but [Vishnu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vishnu) may be a good place to start.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of the creation/destruction cycle of the universe, Vishnu would die and be reborn an infinite number of times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there is another aspect involving [incarnation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarnation). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The hero [Rama](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rama) is an incarnation, or [avatar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar), of Vishnu.  Rama is born, fulfills his purpose (in this case, defeating the demon king [Ravana](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravana) so that he may be reunited with his wife [Sita](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sita),) and eventually dies by abandoning his mortal body.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I mention the Rama/Sita story particularly because there is very likely a fertility element involved in their cycle of separation and reunion. &quot;Sita&quot; literally means &quot;furrow&quot;, which refers both to the furrows in the earth used for planting seed, and to the the vulva, which itself a type of furrow. Sita is considered to be the daughter of the Earth Goddess [Bhūmi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bh%C5%ABmi), and there are references to a fertility goddess named Sita prior to the [Ramayana of Valmiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramayana).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that the [Persephone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persephone) story also involves separation and reunification, in this case with her mother [Demeter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demeter), who is also an earth goddess associated with agriculture. (Sita is likewise said to have reunited with her goddess mother at the end of her incarnation.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------------&#xD;&#xA;*For Westerners interested in reading more about Rama, Sita and Ravana, I highly recommend the [William Buck translation](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1785217), which eliminates the repetitions in the religious text, and makes the core story more accessible to a wider audience.*" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7841" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1911" RevisionGUID="8489e8d5-6d17-43d5-b869-d936b6d82732" CreationDate="2016-08-24T21:01:26.933" UserId="2897" Text="I am currently studying various flood myths from all around the world.&#xD;&#xA;I interprete this whole story as a maritime voyage &amp; colonization story:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ark is simply a ship (bigger than a cockleshell; with roof/deck). &#xD;&#xA;The flood is the sea. Land drowns below the horizon (even mountains) when leaving the coast. Where was once land (around you) is now water.&#xD;&#xA;The old world is destroyed by leaving it, the new world is populated by the maritime explorers. The &quot;old world&quot; an increasingly unpleasant place due to overpopulation etc. is a very good reason to leave it.&#xD;&#xA;When you want to colonize, you take things with you that allow you to build a settlement. This also includes (small) livestock.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But my question is: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any known interpretations of the flood myth to **not** be a literal flood but a maritime voyage / colonization?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I searched for it, but **everyone** seems to take the word &quot;flood&quot; literal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does this interpretation maybe have a name I can use to search for it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7842" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1911" RevisionGUID="8489e8d5-6d17-43d5-b869-d936b6d82732" CreationDate="2016-08-24T21:01:26.933" UserId="2897" Text="Flood myth = Maritime Voyages &amp; Colonization Interpretation?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7843" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1911" RevisionGUID="8489e8d5-6d17-43d5-b869-d936b6d82732" CreationDate="2016-08-24T21:01:26.933" UserId="2897" Text="|comparative|interpretation|flood-myth|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7844" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1901" RevisionGUID="824af05a-0ae9-4568-a4bf-a896a74560f1" CreationDate="2016-08-24T21:50:31.730" UserId="2892" Comment="Added paragraph breaks and a link to Brokkr" Text="If you look in Faulkes' translation of the Poetic Edda the story can be found on pp. 96-7, in the section of Skaldskaparmal that explains kennings for gold. The story begins when Loki cuts off the hair of Thor's wife Sif and has to appease the angry thunder-god. ([A link][1] to another translation. Scroll down to section XXXV.) &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Loki goes to the sons of Ivalde, who make golden hair for Sif and treasures for Odin and Freyr. That was fine, but then he bets [Brokk](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brokkr) and Sindri they can't make better things, and wagers his head that they can't. He turns himself into a fly to hinder them, which is why Mjollnir has a short handle, as maam27's quote from Wikipedia relates. &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Characteristically, Loki gets out of the wager by saying the dwarves can have his head as long as they don't cut his neck. (Shades of the [Merchant of Venice][2].) They content themselves with sewing his mouth shut, a fitting punishment.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre05.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Merchant_of_Venice" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7845" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1901" RevisionGUID="824af05a-0ae9-4568-a4bf-a896a74560f1" CreationDate="2016-08-24T21:50:31.730" Comment="Proposed by 2892 approved by 967, 292 edit id of 353" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7847" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1912" RevisionGUID="9a4c8fd9-23da-4168-8d09-4ac0e50b1b03" CreationDate="2016-08-25T07:33:09.303" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="As we probably know,most gods look like humans e.g. Zeus,Osiris.I am interested to find out if there are any gods that are a different species than the gods.The obly god that I found so far is Ryujin,the Japanese god of the sea,who is in the shape of a dragon.Are there any other gods like him.Note:Gods,like Ganesha and Ra,who have animal heads,are not counted.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7848" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1912" RevisionGUID="9a4c8fd9-23da-4168-8d09-4ac0e50b1b03" CreationDate="2016-08-25T07:33:09.303" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Are there any gods who are in a different species than humans?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7849" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1912" RevisionGUID="9a4c8fd9-23da-4168-8d09-4ac0e50b1b03" CreationDate="2016-08-25T07:33:09.303" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="|mythical-creatures|gods|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7850" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1913" RevisionGUID="6a432e9b-04cc-4fcc-9186-44d1415c14b6" CreationDate="2016-08-25T08:34:24.547" UserId="2897" Text="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Turtle&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This motif is very well known. Not a god per se, but close enough. (Btw: I think it represents a ship).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_Serpent&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Rainbow Serpent or Rainbow Snake is a common deity, often a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; creator god, in the mythology and a common motif in the art of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aboriginal Australia.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is named for the obvious identification between the shape of a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rainbow and the shape of a snake.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But to be honest everything is an animal in Aboriginal mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7851" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1912" RevisionGUID="d99bf844-c10d-4c85-a49b-099c28ac6b32" CreationDate="2016-08-25T11:06:14.310" UserId="2761" Comment="Typos and Clarity" Text="As we probably know, most gods look like humans e.g. Zeus, Osiris. I am interested to find out if there are any gods that are a different species than humans. The only god that I found so far is Ryujin, the Japanese god of the sea, who is in the shape of a dragon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any other gods like Ryujin?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: Gods,like Ganesha and Ra, who have animal heads, are not counted.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7852" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1912" RevisionGUID="d99bf844-c10d-4c85-a49b-099c28ac6b32" CreationDate="2016-08-25T11:06:14.310" Comment="Proposed by 2761 approved by 57 edit id of 354" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7853" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1914" RevisionGUID="c2927277-2e1a-4543-8c9e-cd76428bf8ef" CreationDate="2016-08-25T12:05:23.030" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="In most mythologies,there is often a male god who is the &quot;top&quot; god, like Zeus of Greek mythology and Ra of Egyptian mythology. As far as I know,the only mythology that has a female ruler of the universe is Ameteratsu, the Sun goddess of the Shinto pantheon/Japanese mythology.Are there any other mythologies that have goddesses as the main deity as well?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7854" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1914" RevisionGUID="c2927277-2e1a-4543-8c9e-cd76428bf8ef" CreationDate="2016-08-25T12:05:23.030" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Are there any mythologies that have goddesses as the main deity?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7855" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1914" RevisionGUID="c2927277-2e1a-4543-8c9e-cd76428bf8ef" CreationDate="2016-08-25T12:05:23.030" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7856" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1915" RevisionGUID="1fe055a2-d530-457a-b835-1a8245ca82a1" CreationDate="2016-08-25T12:38:24.427" UserId="2774" Text="Let add that:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Old form of religion, aka totemism, is a good way for you to find animal gods. You can put some decent bets on the fact cavern paintings was religious in nature.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And there is DOZEN of such gods... dozen...&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;India: Hanuman is your first bet&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Egypt: Apis the sacred bull. Even Herodotus mention him and relate Cambyse II death for him killing Apis.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In China: The Qilin, the Sacred Dragon, the Sacred Tiger, the Phoenix Phoenix bird. The Hu Jiang Jun, another sacred tiger of the Taoist. China is more than probably your first source for that!!!&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In Aztec: the Huehuecoyotl. Another big source for you. You heard about the Quetzalcoatl!! Another beastie god. Even if malvolent!&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7857" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1909" RevisionGUID="b8efcbca-284b-4758-93cd-03e2beaa67fa" CreationDate="2016-08-25T13:08:06.123" UserId="2892" Comment="Added the deeper meaning." Text="The castration is taken as a metaphor for the transfer of power from the old generation to the new.  It is not a voluntary relinquishing of power.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ouranous actually *is* the sky, in the same way that Gaia is the literal earth. [His name means &quot;sky&quot;.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranus_%28mythology%29)  You can look for a parallel with the Norse [Ymir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ymir), where they use his body parts to create the universe.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Castration is generally viewed as a curtailing of power, thus the act is symbolic of transfer of power to the next generation.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: Kronos means &quot;time&quot;, which is interesting because time is, in some sense, a function of distance, which requires matter and space. (i.e. He is the son of the sky and the earth, void and matter.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Name meanings are very important in Greek Mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7858" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1916" RevisionGUID="baa2465a-0bf6-44e2-9a6c-7f37b74234d3" CreationDate="2016-08-25T13:38:19.293" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="I don't think this interpretation makes sense. For one thing, there are plenty of &quot;colonization&quot; stories where people go on ocean voyages. I can't think of a single instance where land is described as &quot;drowning&quot; as people move away from the coastline.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The old world is destroyed by leaving it, the new world is populated by the maritime explorers. The &quot;old world&quot; an increasingly unpleasant place due to overpopulation etc. is a very good reason to leave it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You're essentially describing the biblical story of Noah. There are lots of other flood stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I searched for it&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;take a look at the book *The Flood Myth* by Alan Dunes. It's a collection of academic essays on flood stories from around the world. I think you will find it helpful and interesting. (I've never read it but I've heard good things about it, and I'm a fan of the author.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; My sense has always been that back in prehistory there was a single ginormous flood event that was so massive it imprinted itself on every surviving human culture, and was written into many mythologies&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are more plausible explanations for the prevalence of certain motifs across cultures." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7859" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1917" RevisionGUID="f366566e-b914-46a8-9e97-5d542bb5b8ef" CreationDate="2016-08-25T14:14:37.403" UserId="1294" Text="I think this originated in the Wizard of Oz. It is probably a combination of earlier beliefs and practises surrounding witches.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1) Water used to find witches. This took 2 forms. A  suspected witch would be tossed into a pond with feet and hands bound and if she floated she was a witch. A more likely origin for the burning in water idea though is a second method to find witches. The suspected witch placed her arm in boiling water the wound was then bound with a bandage. After a week the bandage was removed and if the wound was healed they were innocent as God had healed them. If not they were guilty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2) Holy water was used to keep away witches. People would put holy water on their door to keep out witches.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3) Witches burnt. First they were burnt on the stake then they were burnt in Hell for ever. This gave rise to many witch burning related myths." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7860" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1918" RevisionGUID="6b3b6c0f-e442-4841-bd83-15df6b135cc5" CreationDate="2016-08-25T14:26:38.383" UserId="2892" Text="[Coyote](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote_(Navajo_mythology)) is a key figure in Navajo mythology!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7861" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1918" RevisionGUID="194cb95a-837e-4581-a402-27bb0b78b083" CreationDate="2016-08-25T14:36:52.113" UserId="2892" Comment="Added to" Text="**[Coyote](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote_(Navajo_mythology))!** (A key figure in Navajo mythology.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also [Iktomi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iktomi) in Lakota mythology.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7862" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1919" RevisionGUID="bc0a9cba-5401-45c2-b0af-c748bc64998f" CreationDate="2016-08-25T15:14:11.623" UserId="2903" Text="The [Flying Spaghetti Monster](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster)! :D" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7863" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1920" RevisionGUID="89bba0fe-7cd3-4889-884b-06b753bec85d" CreationDate="2016-08-25T15:28:45.553" UserId="2892" Text="It seems absurdly obvious that it comes from the Indo-European root *[lewk](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/lewk-)*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Loki's association with the Fenrir would seem to validate this idea (i.e. λύκος/lúkos is also cognate with this stem.) There is actually a very well constructed thesis on the relation of the root words for wolf, locust (i.e. &quot;wolves of the air&quot;) and light in relation to Apollo titled [&quot;Apollo the Wolf God&quot;](https://www.amazon.com/Apollo-Wolf-Journal-Indo-European-Monograph/dp/0941694380).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In addition to that, a relation can be drawn between Loki and Lucifer, the &quot;Morning Star&quot;, as nemesis of the &quot;Sky Father/Lord in Heaven&quot;.  Further, Loki is an agent of Ragnarok, which can be related to the New Testament idea Armageddon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, the inextricable relationship of Loki and Balder would seem to confirm the meaning.  The impetus for Loki's treachery is based on his jealousy toward [Balder &quot;the Bright&quot;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldr#Name). There is no indication that Loki's name has anything to do with darkness, so this is not a relationship of opposites in that regard. Further, much of Loki's stories have to do with cleverness, a modern meaning of &quot;bright&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm aware this is an inexact science, but all of the relevant languages are definitively are part of the [Indo-European](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages) family." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7864" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1920" RevisionGUID="89bba0fe-7cd3-4889-884b-06b753bec85d" CreationDate="2016-08-25T15:28:45.553" UserId="2892" Text="Why is the meaning of Loki's name considered unclear?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7865" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1920" RevisionGUID="89bba0fe-7cd3-4889-884b-06b753bec85d" CreationDate="2016-08-25T15:28:45.553" UserId="2892" Text="|loki|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7866" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="976" RevisionGUID="31bb4166-c810-45c4-b1e8-a38c4b46ab11" CreationDate="2016-08-25T15:41:56.307" UserId="183" Comment="Fixed broken link." Text="#Sumer, sometime in the 4th or 3rd millennium B.C.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My first instinct was to check out [the Wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_dragon#Origin) again. One interesting quote was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The presence of dragons within Chinese culture dates back several thousands of years with the discovery of a dragon statue dating back to the fifth millennium BC from the Yangshao culture in Henan in 1987, and jade badges of rank in coiled form have been excavated from the Hongshan culture circa 4700-2900 BC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That would seem like a likely candidate. Unfortunately, the in-text citations do not work, I can find no other mention of either of these that does not quote Wikipedia verbatim, and this probably doesn't count as mythology, either. Neither are associated with &quot;myths&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I stumbled across [this](http://www.theallineed.com/entertainment/08033180.htm) blog post/whatever-it-is. Either way, it was helpful insofar as it led me somewhere. Citing *Sumerian Mythology*, 1944, 1961, by; Samuel Noah Kramer, it states&#xD;&#xA;&gt; KUR&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sumeria 3rd Millennium B.C.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Since the dragon-slaying theme was an important motif in the Sumerian mythology of the third millennium B. C., it is not unreasonable to assume that many a thread in the texture of the Greek and early Christian dragon tales winds back to Sumerian sources.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; . . .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; We find mention of Kur in three myths from the 4th - 3rd Millennium B.C., (more than a millennium before Tiamat!), In the introductory prologue to the epic tale &quot;Gilgamesh, Enkidu, and the Nether World,&quot;( written on eight tablets - seven excavated in Nippur and one in Ur), Where Enki, the water-god, fights Kur after he learns that The goddess Ereshkigal was carried off violently into the nether world, by Kur. Enki fought Kur from a boat, and Kur fought back savagely with stones of all sizes, and attacked Enki's boat with the primeval waters which it controlled. Unfortunately for us, the author of this tale is so anxious to proceed with the Gilgamesh tale that he doesn't finish the dragon part, and leaves us hanging. It is certain that Enki wins though because he is in the rest of the poem, Kur is not.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; . . .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The second version of the slaying-of-the-dragon myth can be found in &quot;The Feats and Exploits of Ninurta.&quot; (49 tablets) A significant version, due to the fact that it is evident that it was utilized by the Semitic redactors in the creation of the Babylonian Creation Myth featuring Tiamat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In this version, Ninurta, the warrior-god, is the hero of the story. His personified weapon, Sharur, kisses up to him in a drawn out speech extolling the heroic qualities and deeds of Ninurta to convince him to go after Kur, and attach and destroy him. What Sharur has against Kur is not written in the text that is available. Ninurta leaves to do as asked, but finds himself lacking and &quot;flees like a bird&quot;. Sharur though, won't let it go and speaks, reassuring and encouraging Ninurta with his words. &quot;Ninurta now attacks Kur fiercely with all the weapons at his command, and Kur is completely destroyed.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; . . .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The third version of the slaying-of-the-dragon myth can be found in &quot;Inanna and Ebih.&quot; A one hundred and ninety line poem. (12 tablets)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The dragon-slayer in this version of the story is a goddess, Inanna, curiously known as both the goddess of love and also as the goddess of battle and strife, (She must have been married), and is also referred to in many Sumerian hymns as &quot;The Destroyer of Kur.&quot; Kur, is also referred to as The 'mountain,' in the Poem. Did I mention that Kur was also the first fire breathing dragon?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interesting. I decided to learn more.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First, the relevant part of *Sumerian Mythology* appears to be available [here](http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/sum/sum08.htm). No part of it quotes any relevant sections of the myths that imply or outright state that Kur is a dragon. So I decided to find them for myself. (By the way, related notes on many Sumerian myths, including these, can be found [here](http://www.ianlawton.com/mes4.htm)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Gilgamesh, Enkidu, and the Nether World**](http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.1.8.1.4#)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The relevant passage appears to be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1 It began in the early days of the world, after the earth and the heavens had been separated. It was a turbulent time. Ereshkigal had been taken by the dragon Kur and Enki was sailing after to put things into the order that they belonged in.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2 The waters that Enki sailed were being pummeled by rocks. The smallest of these hit the side of Enki's boat like they were like hammers. The largest of these hit with the impact of a boulder thrown from a catapult.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is all that remains of the explicit tale of the fight of Kur against Enki.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**The Exploits of Ninurta**](http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr162.htm)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Asag leapt up at the head of the battle. For a club it uprooted the sky, took it in its hand; like a snake it slid its head along the ground. It was a mad dog attacking to kill the helpless, dripping with sweat on its flanks. Like a wall collapsing, the Asag fell on Ninurta the son of Enlil. Like an accursed storm, it howled in a raucous voice; like a gigantic snake, it roared at the Land. It dried up the waters of the Mountains, dragged away the tamarisks, tore the flesh of the Earth and covered her with painful wounds. It set fire to the reed-beds, bathed the sky in blood, turned it inside out; it dispersed the people there. At that moment, on that day, the fields became black potash, across the whole extent of the horizon, reddish like purple dye -- truly it was so!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Asag](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asag) is often considered to be different from [Kur](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kur). However, [this](http://www.blackdrago.com/fame/kur.htm) (of dubious reputation) states&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Are Asag and Kur synonymous, both referencing a dragon? Or are they different entities attributed as the dark force overcome by Ninurta? Owing to the age of Sumerian literature, and its predecessors adapting the myths, this remains uncertain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Inana and Eibh**](http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr132.htm)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; An, the king of the deities, answered her: &quot;My little one demands the destruction of this mountain -- what is she taking on? Inana demands the destruction of this mountain -- what is she taking on? She demands the destruction of this mountain -- what is she taking on?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;It has poured fearsome terror on the abodes of the gods. It has spread fear among the holy dwellings of the Anuna deities. It has poured its terror and ferocity over this land. It has poured the mountain range's radiance and fear over all the lands. Its arrogance extends grandly to the centre of heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; . . .&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; My lady confronted the mountain range. She advanced step by step. She sharpened both edges of her dagger. She grabbed Ebih's neck as if ripping up esparto grass. She pressed the dagger's teeth into its interior. She roared like thunder.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The rocks forming the body of Ebih clattered down its flanks. From its sides and crevices great serpents spat venom. She damned its forests and cursed its trees. She killed its oak trees with drought. She poured fire on its flanks and made its smoke dense. The goddess established authority over the mountain. Holy Inana did as she wished.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Huh. That's disappointing. The literal interpretation states that Inana's foe is a mountain, not a dragon. Indeed, as [that earlier dubious source](http://www.blackdrago.com/fame/kur.htm) states,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Another disambiguation should be made between Kur the dragon and the myth of Inanna and Ebih. Inanna was the Sumerian goddess of love, battle, and strife and among her many epithets was the 'destroyer of Kur.' In this myth, Kur is also called 'mountain Ebih,' which is a district northeast of Sumer. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Therefore, Inanna overcame Kur, but in this myth, Kur is an hostile land, not a dragon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is the myth being metaphorical when it describes Inana's foe as a mountain?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This myth is doubtful, as are, come to think of it, the other two.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In my (non-expert) opinion, *Gilgamesh, Enkidu, and the Nether World* is not strong evidence for a dragon. The source I gave is the only translation I could find that explicitly calls Kur a dragon. Most others do not refer to that. *Inana and Eibh* also seems to be a lost cause, because, quite literally, Inana is fighting a mountain, not a dragon. I doubt that the myth is being figurative. Mythology tends to be literal, realistic or not.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*The Exploits of Ninurta* seems to be the best evidence available. It says&#xD;&#xA;&gt; like a snake it slid its head along the ground.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; . . .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; like a gigantic snake, it roared at the Land.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; . . .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It set fire to the reed-beds&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Circumstantial? Perhaps. But it seems like a dragon-like creature. I'm calling this one the winner.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now for the date. Embarrassingly enough, I haven't found any date for this other than the one Kramer gave, somewhere in the 4th or 3rd millennium B.C." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7868" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1922" RevisionGUID="8c97e56a-1aa3-4a17-a4ed-04b05685e7d1" CreationDate="2016-08-25T15:46:42.250" UserId="2906" Text="There's a long list of Egyptian gods at&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Egyptian_deities&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Many of them were all or part animal or bird.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7869" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1923" RevisionGUID="dc4f80ec-b8a3-4b22-8379-3b6d328ee329" CreationDate="2016-08-25T15:57:16.100" UserId="2907" Text="Because there are many possibilities. Lewk, as you mentioned, but also:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* [leugh](https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/indoeurop.html#leugh-) - _To tell a lie_&#xD;&#xA;* [leug](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Index:Proto-Indo-European/l) - _To break_&#xD;&#xA;* [lok/loka/luka](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/luka#Old_Swedish) - Either _a lid_, _a container_, or _To close_; this could be a reference to his role in Ragnarok (killing Heimdall)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Without anything definitive, we're forced to either pick a preference, or admit that there are many possibilities. After all, for all we know, the answer might be _all of them_." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7870" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1924" RevisionGUID="0f5f04ac-ea55-4315-b690-47a4327a09da" CreationDate="2016-08-25T16:00:27.610" UserId="2774" Text="You have to see something, what we know of those myths has been tardively written at a time germans/nordics are totally evangelised. An you can clearly see two traditions at work. One is the folk tradition behind those myths. the other is the christian religion. Contrary to let say Egyptians, or mostly old Romans, we have access to the raw myths. Not with them.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And you can clearly see Loki, Baldr and the Ragnarok are so much tainted with the christian feeling you can only take some gaze at them.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt; &#xD;&#xA;Compare this biblic episode (John 8-11):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  “Teacher,” they said to Jesus, “this woman was caught in the act of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; adultery. 5 The law of Moses says to stone her. What do you say?”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 6 They were trying to trap him into saying something they could use&#xD;&#xA;&gt; against him, but Jesus stooped down and wrote in the dust with his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; finger. 7 They kept demanding an answer, so he stood up again and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; said, “All right, but let the one who has never sinned throw the first&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stone!” 8 Then he stooped down again and wrote in the dust.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 9 When the accusers heard this, they slipped away one by one,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beginning with the oldest, until only Jesus was left in the middle of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the crowd with the woman. 10 Then Jesus stood up again and said to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; woman, “Where are your accusers? Didn’t even one of them condemn you?”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With Baldr:&#xD;&#xA;Loki want to kill Baldr and learn only a small branch of Mistletoe can do it. During a game everyone is throwing thing at the invicible Baldr until Loki guide Baldr's brother Hodr a blind god who cannot aim to throw the innocent mistletoe thus killing Baldr.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Compare closely the two myths. And see Jesus pointing that: All right, but let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone! The first stone.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now take a close look at Baldr death: First it is CLEARLY a lapidation scene. There is no doubt here. Second, see how the blind Hodr, guided by Loki will throw an innocent plant. Take Jesus Words and put them on Baldr myth and. Hodr is the one who has never sinned. You know, innocent, blind, cannot aim, mistletoe, hand guided. The finger on his innocence is so clear, so detailed. And people who wrote that certainly read John. So it is almost clear Baldr's death is too christian to be what it was at the origin.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;But Ragnorok and Apocalypse are so intertwinned that once again... Jormungar and the evil snake... Loki and Lucifer... &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;That in my opinion why you see the old tradition (coming from the natural spreading) fighting with the new one. And Loki and Baldr are more than certainly the one who changed the most. You can bet that: In the original myths their roles was very small, so they have been high targets for those late additions. Just a personal opinion.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7872" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1920" RevisionGUID="503d8715-1636-4376-bd76-6c3ecf07d335" CreationDate="2016-08-25T18:47:51.603" UserId="2892" Comment="Added the relationship to Prometheus" Text="It seems absurdly obvious that it comes from the Indo-European root *[lewk](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/lewk-)*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Loki's association with the Fenrir would seem to validate this idea (i.e. λύκος/lúkos is also cognate with this stem.) There is actually a very well constructed thesis on the relation of the root words for wolf, locust (i.e. &quot;wolves of the air&quot;) and light in relation to Apollo titled [&quot;Apollo the Wolf God&quot;](https://www.amazon.com/Apollo-Wolf-Journal-Indo-European-Monograph/dp/0941694380).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In addition to that, a relation can be drawn between Loki and Lucifer, the &quot;Morning Star&quot;, as nemesis of the &quot;Sky Father/Lord in Heaven&quot;.  Further, Loki is an agent of Ragnarok, which can be related to the New Testament idea Armageddon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a similar pre-Christian parallel to Prometheus, who stole fire.  Both defied the Sky Father and were bound.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, the inextricable relationship of Loki and Balder would seem to confirm the meaning.  The impetus for Loki's treachery is based on his jealousy toward [Balder &quot;the Bright&quot;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldr#Name). There is no indication that Loki's name has anything to do with darkness, so this is not a relationship of opposites in that regard. Further, much of Loki's stories have to do with cleverness, a modern meaning of &quot;bright&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm aware this is an inexact science, but all of the relevant languages are definitively are part of the [Indo-European](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages) family." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7873" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1925" RevisionGUID="600c9088-f15d-499e-b5dd-0c84937d2378" CreationDate="2016-08-25T19:27:48.270" UserId="2909" Text="There are a few in Indian mythology. Anantha (Vishnu's rest place) and Garuda (Vishnu's mount) being prominent among them. Some of them are vehicles of other Gods but they are revered as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This [link][1] contains a larger list.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.webonautics.com/mythology/animaldeities.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7874" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1917" RevisionGUID="5947cb76-ce2a-43fd-ae2e-36a5dca166c8" CreationDate="2016-08-25T20:10:58.153" UserId="1294" Comment="added 105 characters in body" Text="I think the first time this belief was stated was in the the Wizard of Oz rather than in any myths. The belief probably comes from older myths/customs surroundin witches that were drawn upon to create this idea for the Wizard of Oz.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1) Water used to find witches. This took 2 forms. A  suspected witch would be tossed into a pond with feet and hands bound and if she floated she was a witch. A more likely origin for the burning in water idea though is a second method to find witches. The suspected witch placed her arm in boiling water the wound was then bound with a bandage. After a week the bandage was removed and if the wound was healed they were innocent as God had healed them. If not they were guilty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2) Holy water was used to keep away witches. People would put holy water on their door to keep out witches.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3) Witches burnt. First they were burnt on the stake then they were burnt in Hell for ever. This gave rise to many witch burning related myths." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7875" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1926" RevisionGUID="96fea2aa-c08d-4c8d-bb72-24055711f397" CreationDate="2016-08-25T20:26:20.213" UserId="565" Text="On a different metaphoric level, the myth also signifies that creation/procreation specifically between Gaia and Ouranos was terminated.  Thus there would be no further macro-elements to the universe. Heaven's 'dynamism' thereby curtailed, other micro-elements (like wind, stars, sun, moon, aether, etc.) were free to develop without the direct/paternal/procreative influence of Ouranos. Ouranos was, in a sense, creatively marginalized." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7876" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1917" RevisionGUID="76c0bbd9-d45a-421d-8f3d-5ad1c342174d" CreationDate="2016-08-25T20:44:41.823" UserId="1294" Comment="added 84 characters in body" Text="**TLDR** This belief doesn't come from a myth it first appeared in Wizard of Oz.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think the first time this belief was stated was in the the Wizard of Oz rather than in any myths. The belief probably comes from older myths/customs surroundin witches that were drawn upon to create this idea for the Wizard of Oz.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1) Water used to find witches. This took 2 forms. A  suspected witch would be tossed into a pond with feet and hands bound and if she floated she was a witch. A more likely origin for the burning in water idea though is a second method to find witches. The suspected witch placed her arm in boiling water the wound was then bound with a bandage. After a week the bandage was removed and if the wound was healed they were innocent as God had healed them. If not they were guilty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2) Holy water was used to keep away witches. People would put holy water on their door to keep out witches.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3) Witches burnt. First they were burnt on the stake then they were burnt in Hell for ever. This gave rise to many witch burning related myths." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7877" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1909" RevisionGUID="504274c0-13a4-4624-85f3-55fe31ac7239" CreationDate="2016-08-25T20:49:47.623" UserId="2892" Comment="Updated to accomodate Peter's point" Text="The castration is taken as a metaphor for the transfer of power from the old generation to the new.  It is not a voluntary relinquishing of power.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ouranous actually *is* the sky, in the same way that Gaia is the literal earth. [His name means &quot;sky&quot;.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranus_%28mythology%29)  You can look for a parallel with the Norse [Ymir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ymir), where they use his body parts to create the universe.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Castration is generally viewed as a curtailing of power, thus the act is symbolic of transfer of power to the next generation.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: Kronos is popularly believed to mean &quot;time&quot;, which is interesting because time is, in some sense, a function of distance, which requires matter and space. (i.e. He is the son of the sky and the earth, void and matter.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there is also an argument that Kronos derives from the Indo-European root for [&quot;cut&quot;](http://www.behindthename.com/name/cronus). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regardless of the &quot;true&quot; origin, which must always be obscure, name meanings are very important in Greek Mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7878" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1917" RevisionGUID="494e4dd9-db2b-4568-b5ef-f67094d08039" CreationDate="2016-08-25T21:49:23.870" UserId="1294" Comment="added 406 characters in body" Text="**TLDR** This belief doesn't come from a myth it first appeared in Wizard of Oz.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think the first time this belief was stated was in the the Wizard of Oz rather than in any myths. The belief probably comes from older myths/customs surroundin witches that were drawn upon to create this idea for the Wizard of Oz.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1) Water used to find witches. This took 2 forms. A  suspected witch would be tossed into a pond with feet and hands bound and if she floated she was a witch. A more likely origin for the burning in water idea though is a second method to find witches. The suspected witch placed her arm in boiling water the wound was then bound with a bandage. After a week the bandage was removed and if the wound was healed they were innocent as God had healed them. If not they were guilty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2) Holy water was used to keep away witches. People would put holy water on their door to keep out witches. This happened in Catlan traditions as at new Year according to Catlan folklore witches are supposed to come and steal children away unless precautions were taken including sprinkling holy water on entrances and exits.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3)  Witches in Catlan folklore were often scared of water as washing them would reveal the devils mark showing them to be a witch.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the other hand I doubt Catlan folklore had witches die in contact with water since a ritual to become a witch involved bathing in saltwater which would not be a safe pastime if ware killed them." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7879" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1927" RevisionGUID="e5fd107c-5745-4a73-b00d-96f964a9e818" CreationDate="2016-08-25T22:47:21.153" UserId="806" Text="Just because  two words look similar does not mean they are related. [Coincidental resemblances are very common between unrelated words.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Etymology][2] as a science is based on the comparative method where established patterns of *correspondences* between different languages are considered the main evidence for a particular word's origin. Corresponding words often don't look too similar at first glance: for example, Old Norse *tíu* and Latin *decem.* But by comparing different sets of words from languages with a common ancestor, we find repeating patterns that allow us to reconstruct rules of sound change that provide support for hypotheses about etymology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Considered in terms of correspondences, PIE *lewk as an ancestor of Old Norse Loki is not obvious at all.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Due to [Grimm's Law][3], PIE *k was regularly spirantized to Proto-Germanic *h in most phonological contexts. We can see this in the reconstructed PG words listed on that Wiktionary page:  *leuhtaz, *leuhtą, *leuhsaz, *leuhsą. So you  would have to explain how it developed to /k/ instead in &quot;Loki.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am not very familiar with the development of Norse vowels, but it looks like the diphthong &quot;eu&quot; generally became &quot;jó&quot; (for example, in the words Ljótr and ljóss). &quot;Loki&quot; obviously does not contain &quot;jó&quot;. So that is another problem with your proposed etymology (although I don't know if the vowel &quot;u&quot; in the zero-grade form of this PIE root, *luk, would be more plausible as an an ancestor of Old Norse &quot;o&quot;).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm not an etymologist, so I don't know these details. There may in fact be explanations for how this root could develop to &quot;Loki.&quot; But evidently, they are not convincing enough to establish a consensus view. And it's certainly not convincing to just say &quot;it seems obvious.&quot; That's not just inexact science, it's not doing science at all.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.zompist.com/chance.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimm%27s_law" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7880" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1919" RevisionGUID="717010bd-ef34-4d90-99bb-b32de537f068" CreationDate="2016-08-25T23:10:17.437" UserId="967" Comment="added 85 characters in body" Text="The [Flying Spaghetti Monster](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster)! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Flying spaghetti monster is a piece of Spaghetti, which is obviously not human." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7881" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="452" RevisionGUID="bf711bb7-7809-4ce2-8303-6c4eb78b0420" CreationDate="2016-08-26T01:05:56.400" UserId="967" Comment="deleted 6 characters in body" Text="For questions linked to the area between Tigris and Euphrates, corresponding to modern-day Iraq. See also the sumeria tag." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7882" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="452" RevisionGUID="bf711bb7-7809-4ce2-8303-6c4eb78b0420" CreationDate="2016-08-26T01:05:56.400" Comment="Proposed by 967 approved by 42, 62 edit id of 351" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7883" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1920" RevisionGUID="95e3b154-36b7-44c8-bfc5-f0f80d549aa3" CreationDate="2016-08-26T01:26:23.870" UserId="2892" Comment="Edited to temper my proposition, based on fiery oppositon from sumelic, who I indavertantly may have insulted" Text="It seems obvious that it comes from the Indo-European root *[lewk](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/lewk-)*. (But then, I'm not an etymologist, so there may be elements I am missing.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is the root of my idea:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Loki's association with Fenrir would *seem* to validate this (i.e. λύκος/lúkos is also cognate with this stem.) There is actually a very well constructed thesis on the relation of the root words for wolf, locust (i.e. &quot;wolves of the air&quot;) and light in relation to Apollo titled [&quot;Apollo the Wolf God&quot;](https://www.amazon.com/Apollo-Wolf-Journal-Indo-European-Monograph/dp/0941694380).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In addition to that, a relation can be drawn between Loki and Lucifer, the &quot;Morning Star&quot;, as nemesis of the &quot;Sky Father/Lord in Heaven&quot;.  Further, Loki is an agent of Ragnarok, which can be related to the New Testament idea Armageddon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a similar pre-Christian parallel to Prometheus, who stole fire.  Both defied the Sky Father and were bound.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, the inextricable relationship of Loki and Balder would seem to sugget such a meaning.  The impetus for Loki's treachery is based on his jealousy toward [Balder &quot;the Bright&quot;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldr#Name). There is no indication that Loki's name has anything to do with darkness, so this is not a relationship of opposites in that regard. Further, much of Loki's stories have to do with cleverness, a modern meaning of &quot;bright&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All of the relevant languages are part of the [Indo-European](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages) family, and Norse Mythology has many parallels to Greek Mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7884" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1928" RevisionGUID="ff4c252b-708a-4649-86f4-f3b40903ea84" CreationDate="2016-08-26T05:43:38.153" UserId="2920" Text="The Raven (Xu'uya) is the creator god in the Haida stories (from islands off the West Coast of Canada).  This is one of the main cultures that used totem poles.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although many of the stories from Haida have been lost, you can find much amazing artwork, and there are anthologies written up." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7885" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1928" RevisionGUID="f108cd25-9d5f-4fe6-b250-8d1c26abc806" CreationDate="2016-08-26T05:54:41.683" UserId="2920" Comment="added 638 characters in body" Text="Raven (Xu'uya) is the creator god in the Haida stories (from islands off the West Coast of Canada).  This is one of the main cultures that used totem poles.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although many of the stories from Haida have been lost, you can find much amazing artwork, and there are anthologies written up.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Raven found the first men in a clam shell (you can find a related sculpture [here][1] which was shown on the Canadian $20 bill from 2004-2012) and he played a role in the conception of the first children.  The full story is [here][2] (though if you read this, please read the footnote at the bottom - the initial version I read was slightly different, and I think the version on this webpage may be &quot;sanitized&quot; - the footnote describes the version I am familiar with).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Raven got up to quite a few other tricks in his time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.billreidfoundation.ca/banknote/raven.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.eldrbarry.net/rabb/rvn/first.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7892" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1913" RevisionGUID="5dbc3a74-8e3b-47cd-bd25-4aa20c8ca6f0" CreationDate="2016-08-26T21:43:20.197" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved formatting." Text="[The Turtle (Wikipedia)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Turtle)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This motif is very well known. Not a god per se, but close enough. (Btw: I think it represents a ship).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Rainbow Serpent (Wikipedia)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_Serpent)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Rainbow Serpent or Rainbow Snake is a common deity, often a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; creator god, in the mythology and a common motif in the art of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aboriginal Australia.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is named for the obvious identification between the shape of a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rainbow and the shape of a snake.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But to be honest everything is an animal in Aboriginal mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7893" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1913" RevisionGUID="5dbc3a74-8e3b-47cd-bd25-4aa20c8ca6f0" CreationDate="2016-08-26T21:43:20.197" Comment="Proposed by 1241 approved by -1 edit id of 357" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7894" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1913" RevisionGUID="c5532be2-5f8b-4692-9528-c91fe604f17e" CreationDate="2016-08-26T21:43:20.197" UserId="967" Comment="Improved formatting." Text="[The World Turtle (Wikipedia)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Turtle)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This motif is very well known. Not a god per se, but close enough. (Btw: I think it represents a ship).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Rainbow Serpent (Wikipedia)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_Serpent)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Rainbow Serpent or Rainbow Snake is a common deity, often a creator god, in the mythology and a common motif in the art of Aboriginal Australia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;It is named for the obvious identification between the shape of a rainbow and the shape of a snake.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But to be honest everything is an animal in Aboriginal mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7895" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1930" RevisionGUID="77e4e83c-cb90-4abf-9ba1-900c8f4fb401" CreationDate="2016-08-26T23:58:41.830" UserId="967" Text="So there is a mythical creature called a harpy, who was a half woman, half bird.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anything on what type of bird it was?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7896" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1930" RevisionGUID="77e4e83c-cb90-4abf-9ba1-900c8f4fb401" CreationDate="2016-08-26T23:58:41.830" UserId="967" Text="Is there a specific bird that a harpie had under her human part?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7897" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1930" RevisionGUID="77e4e83c-cb90-4abf-9ba1-900c8f4fb401" CreationDate="2016-08-26T23:58:41.830" UserId="967" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7898" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1931" RevisionGUID="87e8a6c6-af82-4912-becf-4c403ba3a2fc" CreationDate="2016-08-27T00:42:31.650" UserId="888" Text="I'm not aware of any specific species being mentioned in the myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Traditional depictions generally seems to have considered the bird part to be some kind of bird of prey (given the size and the claws).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further, given their nature as befouling creatures, I'd expect some kind of scavenger bird, like a vulture or buzzard.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7899" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1922" RevisionGUID="acd079a5-9865-4245-a3f2-79e9b05cfe7c" CreationDate="2016-08-27T01:24:32.050" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved formatting." Text="There's a long list of Egyptian gods in this Wikipedia link:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[List of Egyptian deities (Wikipedia)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Egyptian_deities)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Many of them were all or part animal or bird.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7900" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1922" RevisionGUID="acd079a5-9865-4245-a3f2-79e9b05cfe7c" CreationDate="2016-08-27T01:24:32.050" Comment="Proposed by 1241 approved by 967, 292 edit id of 356" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7903" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1725" RevisionGUID="4b1de391-0e71-4e4a-a5f6-8a640ae4c05d" CreationDate="2016-08-27T16:03:16.267" UserId="2682" Comment="improved formatting" Text="&lt;sub&gt;*I have slightly modified the following from a Yahoo! Answers question I answered sometime ago.*&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He is referred to as a god in the Nibelungenlied and the Völsungasaga. In the Eddas he is generally referred to as an Ás, i.e., one of the gods called the Æsir. An example of this is in the Gylfaginning, from the Prose Edda, in which appears also the most explicit reference to anything Jötunn [Giant] about him. He and his two brothers Býleipt (or Býleist) and Helblindi are therein said to be the sons of a Jötunn named Fárbauti, while their mother is a certain Laufey, who is also called Nál. We are not told much about Laufey beyond the idea that the reason she was called Nál, &quot;Needle,&quot; is because she was &quot;slender and weak&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is possible that Loki has similar origins to most of the other Æsir, who, like Óðinn and Þórr (Thor), are at least half-Jötunn, since the mothers of these gods were giantesses. Because Loki was among the treaty-makers who commingled their blood to become sworn brethren when the gods were making this pact, he became a member of this group, all of whom were considered to be Æsir from then on, whatever their nature or origins, as Vanir (a tribe/race of deities which for a time were the Æsir's rivals) or Jötnar [plural of *Jötunn*].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Loki's shadowy origins also make it difficult to ascertain whether he was initially pure Jötunn or not. We know nothing about his brothers apart from their names, so they do not help clear this issue up. Their parents are a bit of a puzzle themselves. In a late document called *Sörla þáttr eða Heðins saga ok Högna* (&quot;The Tale of Sörli, or of Heðin and Högni&quot;), the Jötunn Fárbauti is described as though he is merely a man, and an old one at that, at the time that he sires Loki. Elsewhere he is said to have impregnated Laufey with Loki by striking her with a bolt of lightning. Could this be a euphemism for a sexual assault? And were Býleipt and Helblindi conceived in the same way?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is sometimes said that Loki was a cousin of Óðinn (Odin) and that this was the reason that Óðinn had to accept him among the Æsir. If this is the case then it means that one of Loki's parents could have been a sibling of Óðinn's mother Bestla, herself one of the frost giants. At any rate, John Lindow has an interesting insight on the issue of Loki's nature in his *Norse Mythology: A Guide to the Gods, Heroes, Rituals and Beliefs*, in which he says the following in his article on Loki's mother Laufey:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; What is most striking about Laufey is that we always read of Loki&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Laufeyjarson and never of Loki Fárbautason ... There were no last&#xD;&#xA;&gt; names in old Scandinavia ... One had a given name and a patronymic,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; except in those rare cases when the father was unknown or unsavory, in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which case one had a matronymic. The fact that his father Fárbauti was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a giant was presumably something that Loki—and Odin—would rather not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; be reminded of, especially since in this mythology kinship is reckoned&#xD;&#xA;&gt; exclusively through male lines. (Consider the fact that Odin has a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; giant mother and sex with giantesses is one of his weapons.) Was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Laufey, then, a goddess? She is listed with goddesses in one of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thulur, and having a goddess mother might have been what enabled Loki&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to be &quot;enumerated among the æsir,&quot; as Snorri puts it in Gylfaginning.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; If Laufey was a goddess, then Loki's genealogy as offspring of a giant&#xD;&#xA;&gt; father and a goddess mother would be the same as that of his children&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with Angrboda, namely the Midgard serpent, Fenrir the wolf, and Hel,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; all great enemies of the gods, and this might explain his ultimate&#xD;&#xA;&gt; allegiance." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7904" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1932" RevisionGUID="83c18619-326a-4f08-b78c-1f3ff3cac8c8" CreationDate="2016-08-27T19:46:36.050" UserId="2926" Text="considering that in most media forms, harpies have a pretty humanlike-posture, I mean they mostly have their backs straight. considering they always are depicted as meat eaters and very territorial, I would consider them being close to the eagle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;being eagle based can also explain why some say that harpies live in mountains or near oceans. since there are subspecies of eagles who live inland while other subspecies live near large bodies of water&#xD;&#xA;other predator birds like buzzards and falcons havený such a diverse diet.&#xD;&#xA;they probably aren't based on owls since owls have plumage on their legs, and most other birds don't." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7905" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1933" RevisionGUID="d60358db-10c0-4985-bd13-d672b1095b6a" CreationDate="2016-08-27T19:59:35.863" UserId="2926" Text="good day/night,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;i'm asuming you know what a centaur is, but in case you don't the following link has a description.(http://www.greekmythology.com/Myths/Creatures/Centaur/centaur.html)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question is about the internal workins of this creature. How are the organs aranged?&#xD;&#xA;since it's bassically a horse with it's head replaced with a human upper-body I get confused.&#xD;&#xA;for example if it has both the human and horse it's organs that would mean it has multiple hearts, livers and two pair of lungs.&#xD;&#xA;can someone explain how this creature works?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7906" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1933" RevisionGUID="d60358db-10c0-4985-bd13-d672b1095b6a" CreationDate="2016-08-27T19:59:35.863" UserId="2926" Text="the internal organs off the centaur" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7907" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1933" RevisionGUID="d60358db-10c0-4985-bd13-d672b1095b6a" CreationDate="2016-08-27T19:59:35.863" UserId="2926" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7908" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1933" RevisionGUID="0a214e8f-cd51-4af8-9b2b-408ed8c495c1" CreationDate="2016-08-27T20:28:29.240" UserId="2926" Comment="added tags" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7909" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1933" RevisionGUID="6b0de401-84df-4587-9ccd-a225cb747535" CreationDate="2016-08-27T21:18:03.887" UserId="967" Comment="deleted 182 characters in body; edited title" Text="My question is about the internal organs of this creature. How are the organs arranged?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Because it's basically a horse with it's head replaced with a human upper-body, I get confused.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example if it has both the human and horse it's organs that would mean it has multiple hearts, livers and two pair of lungs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can someone explain how this creature works?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7910" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1933" RevisionGUID="6b0de401-84df-4587-9ccd-a225cb747535" CreationDate="2016-08-27T21:18:03.887" UserId="967" Comment="deleted 182 characters in body; edited title" Text="The internal organs off the centaur" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7911" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1934" RevisionGUID="7430adac-5342-4c98-b488-76fe05cc34de" CreationDate="2016-08-27T21:53:10.523" UserId="2928" Text="[Nandi][1] (Hinduism) is a bull. I think you could argue that Nandi is a god. He is a devotee of Shiva, but he is worshipped as a God in all Saivaite temples. He is also seen as very powerful and is the Master of 18 gurus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Image attribution: [Wikimedia Commons][3]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nandi_(bull)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/C5BK1.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nandi_(bull)#/media/File:Nandi_Chamundi_Mysore.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7912" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1933" RevisionGUID="9e3963bf-18a0-4692-bb93-6219bed30479" CreationDate="2016-08-28T05:40:53.807" UserId="2687" Comment="Grammar and spelling" Text="My question is about the internal organs of this creature. How are the organs arranged?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Because it's basically a horse with it's head replaced with a human upper-body, I get confused.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example if it has both the human and horse organs that would mean it has multiple hearts, livers and two pair of lungs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can someone explain how this creature works?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7913" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1933" RevisionGUID="9e3963bf-18a0-4692-bb93-6219bed30479" CreationDate="2016-08-28T05:40:53.807" UserId="2687" Comment="Grammar and spelling" Text="The internal organs of the centaur" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7914" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1933" RevisionGUID="9e3963bf-18a0-4692-bb93-6219bed30479" CreationDate="2016-08-28T05:40:53.807" Comment="Proposed by 2687 approved by 967, -1 edit id of 358" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7915" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1933" RevisionGUID="fc0fa4ca-db33-43b7-ae5f-8dd44446edee" CreationDate="2016-08-28T05:40:53.807" UserId="2682" Comment="Grammar and spelling" Text="My question is about the internal organs of this creature. How are these organs arranged?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Because it is basically a horse with its head replaced by a human upper body, I get confused.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, if it has both the human and horse organs, that would mean it has multiple hearts, livers and two pairs of lungs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can someone explain how this creature works?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7916" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1815" RevisionGUID="91c01c03-b661-485e-993a-ded4f9527db2" CreationDate="2016-08-28T16:10:19.883" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected spelling" Text="Virtually all the ichthyanthropomorphic [part fish, part humanoid] characters featured in Greco-Roman mythology are water deities, usually sea-gods. Even Aigipan, the one aegichthyomorphic [part goat, part fish] character of these myths, is a god (who was made into one of the twelve signs of the zodiac, the Sea-Goat Capricorn). And as a matter of fact all the top-shelf water-gods in this mythology are at least partly ichthyomorphous [fish-shaped], with the glaring exception of their king Poseidon. (I suggest why this is the case in the last section below.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Okeanos and Eurynome**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only explicit description (that I've been able to find) of a creature which fits the description of a mermaid, i.e. a woman with the lower half of a fish in place of legs, in ancient Greco-Roman myth, is from Pausanias' travelogue called the Description of Greece. On his tour of Arkadia [Arcadia] the writer came across a river called &quot;Afterbirth.&quot; At the point at which it met with another river there was a shrine to Eurynome which even in Pausanias' time was supposed to be ancient. Says the writer, the Phigalians believed that Eurynome was a surname of the goddess Artemis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Those of them, however, to whom have descended ancient traditions,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; declare that Eurynome was a daughter of [*the Titan*] Okeanos, whom&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Homer mentions in the *Iliad*, saying that along with Thetis she&#xD;&#xA;&gt; received Hephaistos [*when he was cast out of heaven at birth by his own mother Hera*]. On the same day in each year they open the sanctuary of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eurynome, but at any other time it is a transgression for them to open&#xD;&#xA;&gt; it. On this occasion sacrifices also are offered by the state and by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; individuals. I did not arrive at the season of the festival, and I did&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not see the image of Eurynome; but the Phigalians told me that golden&#xD;&#xA;&gt; chains bind the wooden image, which represents a woman as far as the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hips, but below this a fish. If she is a daughter of Okeanos, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lives with Thetis in the depth of the sea, the fish may be regarded as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a kind of emblem of her. But there could be no probable connection&#xD;&#xA;&gt; between such a shape and Artemis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Contrary to Pausanias I can think of a few reasons why Artemis would be thus represented, including the fact that Artemis was closely connected to at least sixty daughters of Okeanos [Oceanus].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautika*, before Poseidon's parents (and Artemis' grandparents) the Titans Kronos and Rhea ruled the universe, atop Mt Olympos [Olympus] there sat enthroned an ancient Titan couple, namely Ophion (&quot;Snake&quot;) and Eurynome. While Kronos wrestled Ophion for his throne, Rhea wrestled Eurynome for hers. The younger Titans won the matches and cast their defeated opponents into Tartaros, the deepest part of the Underworld. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In an alternate ending, Kronos and Rhea hurled Ophion and Eurynome into the Okeanos River. Perhaps the meaning here is that Ophion fell to Earth and *became* the world-encircling stream of Okeanos in which waters Eurynome dwelt thenceforward. It is here that she is later found in the company of her niece, the Nereid Thetis, and where they receive the fallen Hephaistos. It may be at the point of *her* own fall that Eurynome acquired her ichthyoid features. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If this is so, it should be easy to see her affinity for Hephaistos, who was rejected by his mother because he was born deformed, and either he was also born crippled or the fall from heaven took from him the use of his legs. In Hesiod's *Theogony*, around the time of the cataclysmic conflict between Kronos and his son Zeus, Eurynome became the third in Zeus' series of seven wives. She bore him three goddesses called the Kharites [Charites, &quot;Graces&quot;], one of whom would become the wife of her own half-brother Hephaistos.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In interpreting the writings of Pherekydes of Syros, from whom Apollonius seems to have acquired his wrestling-match episode, Eusebius of Caesarea posits that Ophion is essentially an original Phoenician version of Okeanos. Whatever the case may be with that, there is iconographic material which might provide a conceptual connection between them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Procession of Deities at Wedding of Peleus &amp; Thetis][1]][1] &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;In the centre of this image we have Okeanos attending the wedding of his granddaughter Thetis among the other deities. In his right hand he holds a fish and his left a snake. (If Israel was Hellenised enough by the 1st century AD perhaps there's a connection to be found between this and the question asked in Luke 11.11: &quot;What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of *ikhthyos* [a fish] give him *ophin* [a serpent]?&quot;) Okeanos' lower half is itself more serpentine or eel-like than it is especially ichthyoid, although I suppose it might represent something such as an oarfish, which, apart from being a genuine *ikhthys*, is no small creature.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[![Oarfish][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Nereus, Phorkys, Triton and the Ikhthyokentauroi**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Okeanos, the firstborn Titan, was older than the Sea-King Poseidon, but there were other water deities who may have been yet older than Okeanos, and these are his half-brothers Nereus, Phorkys [Phorcys] and Thaümas, the sons of Pontos (the Sea) and Gaia (the Earth). Of these, Hesiod says that Nereus was the eldest, who got married to Okeanos' daughter Doris. There do not seem to be any surviving ancient depictions of Thaümas but Phorkys is featured in Antiochene Roman mosaic while Nereus is a lot more popular, appearing on Greek pottery hundreds of years earlier. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unlike her sister Eurynome, Doris was not a mermaid, and both she and her husband are depicted as completely humanoid, although there are quite a few instances of Nereus appearing as almost indistinguishable from his half-brother/father-in-law Okeanos, complete with the giant serpentine fish-tail in place of legs. Nereus and Doris had fifty daughters and one son, none of whom is described as ichthyomorphous at all (except for the fact that the son was eventually transformed into a shellfish). One of the daughters, Amphitrite, married Poseidon and thus became the Queen of the Sea. Together they had a number of children, all completely humanoid except for the huge merman Triton, who became an important sea-god. Lake Tritonis in Libya, where he lived, was named after him.     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nereus possessed arcane knowledge and was also fond of shape-shifting. He was willing to part with his hidden knowledge if the seeker thereof was able to wrestle him without losing his grasp upon him while the god transformed himself into all sorts of things like various animals, plants, water and fire. His daughter Thetis and grandson Triton seem to have inherited this trait from him. Thus among the adventures of Herakles is included a wrestling-match first against Triton, who barred the way to his grandfather, and then again against Nereus to acquire from him the information that he wished to obtain. Thetis agreed to marry the mortal king Peleus only if he managed a similar feat against herself, which he did.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Herakles vs Triton, Flanked by Nereus &amp; Poseidon][3]][3]   &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;This art-piece would appear to be preserving a tradition in which not only Nereus (left, completely humanoid) was present when Herakles wrestled with Triton (centre) but so was Triton's father Poseidon (right, wielding his Trident).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the Byzantine lexicographer Suidas, Carthaginians were originally called the *Aphroi*. They derived their name from their ancestor Aphros, the first king of Libya. Africa had previously been referred to as Libya but from the seafaring Aphroi it received its current designation. King Aphros, says Suidas, was a son of Kronos by Okeanos' daughter Philyra, which would thus make him the brother of the Centaur Kheiron [Chiron] and a half-brother of Poseidon and Zeus. From Roman mosaics in Carthage, Cyprus and Antioch, we know that Aphros was an Ikhthyokentauros [Ichthyocentaur, &quot;Fish-Centaur,&quot; as distinct from the Hippokentauroi, &quot;Horse-Centaurs,&quot; such as Kheiron]. Essentially, Ikhthyokentauroi were part god, part horse and part lobster (or—in place of the lobster parts—crab, or, as usual, serpentine fish), sometimes portrayed as red all over.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;William Smith’s 1867 Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology describes the Ikhthyokentauros as “a particular kind of Triton”. The aforementioned mosaics also portray other specimens of this Libyan breed of mermen, who may also be sons of Kronos and Philyra. Courtesy of Aaron Atsma's website The Theoi Project, we have them listed as Bythos, Agreus, Anaresineus and Gaeeus. Most of the &quot;merpeople&quot; of Greco-Roman myth, however, belong to the tribe of sea-sprites descended from Triton himself, and these are thus called the Tritones [*Tritons*], the females of whom are Tritonides (Anglicised *Tritonesses*). In his *Imagines* [&quot;Images&quot;] Philostratus the Elder says that the Tritonides were the handmaidens of Nereus' daughter Galateia (who at some point is beloved of the Cyclops Polyphemos). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Roman mosaics, a maroon-coloured Bythos appears carrying Thetis and flanked by Thetis' mother Doris and sister Galateia; Anaresineus is carrying Galateia; Agreus is carrying the Nereid Kymothoe; and Gaaeus is carrying the Nereid Pherusa.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Anaresineus &amp; Galateia][4]][4]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Galateia and Anaresineus:* Okeanos and nearly all the sea-gods depicted in these mosaics have crab's forelegs as horns.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][5]][5]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Merman Phorkys carrying his niece, the Nereid Dynamene. He is not horned like the Ikhthyokentauroi but he does still have the crab's forelegs, albeit growing from his waist.*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first Triton also had at least four daughters, who presumably were all mermaids, or at least avid shape-shifters like him and his grandfather Nereus: namely [Tritonis](http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheTritonis.html) (according to Apollonius Rhodius &amp; Hyginus), [Triteia](http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheTriteia.html) [or Tritaia] (according to Pausanias), [Kalliste](http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheKalliste.html) (according to Apollonius Rhodius) and [Pallas](http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NymphePallas.html) (according to Apollodorus). Their mother was probably Okeanos' daughter Libya, who had given to Africa its previous name. According to Atsma, most of the Tritones were similar in appearance to the first Triton &quot;but others were said to be monstrous creatures with red eyes, sea-green hair, vicious teeth and dolphin-tails.&quot; He further describes the Tritones as the attendants of the major sea-gods, which would include their ancestors Nereus and Poseidon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Spartan Triton][6]][6]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;In Greek and Italian mosaic the form that Triton takes is an interesting case which distinguishes him from other mermen in that he actually seems to have a literal *pair of legs*, except that each leg is a fish-tail. This corresponds surprisingly closely to the description of the Giants against whom the gods went to war. These creatures are also bipedal but their legs are snakes, which could provide an aquatic connection back to Ophion-Okeanos, their half-brother.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Poseidon, Glaükos, Palaimon and Proteus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Curiously, the only time that Poseidon ever seems to take on the form of a sea animal is in an obscure story mentioned by Ovid, who is building on a passing statement of Pausanias. The city of Delphi was reputedly named after a son of Apollon [Apollo] but in this version Poseidon somehow managed to seduce Melantho, daughter of Deukalion and Pyrrha, in the form of a dolphin. The child they have together is called Delphos, &quot;Dolphin,&quot; and after him the famous city receives its name. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Barring this, Poseidon is unique among all sea-gods, who each, with their hybrid shapes, seem to represent the changing nature of the sea. [Glaükos](http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Glaukos.html) [Glaücus] and Melikertes-[Palaimon](http://www.theoi.com/Gallery/Z34.4B.html) [Melicertes-Palaemon], when they became sea-gods, also basically turned into mermen. The snake-like form of the mermen's fish-tails suggests a fluidity of form which Poseidon perhaps counters with Olympian stability, with himself as the bridge between the sea and the rest of the cosmos. However, if the Melanthian Delphos story really is something to go by, perhaps there might have been ancient artistic depictions of Poseidon in mid transformation, with his upper half humanoid and the lower that of a dolphin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although he is never described as a merman, Poseidon's herdsman Proteus bears striking resemblance to Nereus, whose son-in-law he also is. Both of them are called the Old Man of the Sea, and Proteus prefers not to share his wisdom unless its seeker can out-wrestle him through an adrenaline-rush series of metamorphoses. It is not unlikely that Proteus looked like all the ichthyoid sea-gods, or at least, in nature and form, was like something in between Poseidon and Nereus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;{A few details *passim* are sourced from 2 answers I gave to 2 similar questions on Yahoo! Answers.}&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/7EuC0.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/HK010.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Ts0aA.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/dLMrd.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/SreFl.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/WjQAI.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7917" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1935" RevisionGUID="fa96023b-c21d-4f5b-9c56-2cb4bdeafab7" CreationDate="2016-08-28T20:45:57.440" UserId="2687" Text="Yes&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I take this question to refer to the chief deity of the “day to day” pantheon. Many religions have primordial goddesses that are arguably older and more powerful than the deities that are the object of day-to-day worship, but were supplanted (like Gaea) or are rarely referenced (such as Nyx).&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Likely reflecting the male-dominated outlook of many cultures, most such chief deities are male. However, some are female. Besides your example of Ameteratsu, I can think of a few others: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In Odinani religion, the primary deity is Ala. The true supreme deity is Chinukwu, who generally seems to be genderless, but [is not worshipped][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt; Chukwu is genderless and is reached through various spiritual&#xD;&#xA;&gt; forces mainly under the spirit class of Alusi who are incarnations of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the high god; no sacrifices, however, are given to Chukwu and no&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shrines and altars are erected for him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; Ala is female, and chief of the gods who are actually worshipped:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt; Ala (meaning ‘earth’ and ‘land’ in Igbo, also Ájá-ànà) is the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; feminine earth spirit who is responsible for morality, fertility and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the dead ancestors who are stored in the underworld in her womb. Ala&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is at the head of the Igbo pantheon, maintaining order and carrying&#xD;&#xA;&gt; out justice against wrongdoers. Ala is the most prominent and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; worshipped alusi, almost every Igbo village has a shrine dedicated&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to her called íhú Ala where major decisions are taken. Ala is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; believed to be involved in all aspects of human affairs including&#xD;&#xA;&gt; festivals and at offerings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; In fact, the very name Odinani appears to contain a derivative of “Ala.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In Winti, Aisa [is][2] another supreme earth goddess:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt; Aisa(eye sah), mother god of the earth,  is the highest and is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; considered closest to Anana. Which is why at most Winti rituals or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; payers begin with an offering or odo(oh doh) to Aisa, hoping that she&#xD;&#xA;&gt; will intervene on your behalf regarding many issues, such as healing,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; protection, or general blessing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; There is also a supreme deity, who may be male or genderless, but (as with Ala) Aisa is the chief divinity of the pantheon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1: That Nyx was of comparable power to Zeus, or greater than him, seems quite likely. In the *Iliad*, Hypnos makes reference to a previous instance in which he had aroused the wrath of Zeus, and fled to Nyx for shelter: *“To her I came in my flight, and besought her, and Zeus refrained him, albeit he was wroth, for **he had awe lest he do aught displeasing to swift Night.**”* She is also referred to as *“Night that bends to her sway both gods and men.*”&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odinani&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://surinameafricanheritage.wordpress.com/2015/01/15/suriname-afrian-heritage-religion-anana-aisa-winti/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7918" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1936" RevisionGUID="759ac90a-883b-4241-b50a-fd49ac1c9ece" CreationDate="2016-08-28T21:56:06.103" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Ialam is argubaly one of the most important religions in the world.However,I have not found any other mythical creatures in Islam,save the *jinn*,which is a type of fire spirit.Rae there any other mythical creatures in Islam?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7919" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1936" RevisionGUID="759ac90a-883b-4241-b50a-fd49ac1c9ece" CreationDate="2016-08-28T21:56:06.103" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Are there any mythical creatures in Islam?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7920" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1936" RevisionGUID="759ac90a-883b-4241-b50a-fd49ac1c9ece" CreationDate="2016-08-28T21:56:06.103" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="|mythical-creatures|islam|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7921" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1936" RevisionGUID="8203b75c-46e0-4441-aecf-a37f9818b511" CreationDate="2016-08-29T00:50:49.007" UserId="967" Comment="added 5 characters in body" Text="Ialam is arguably one of the most important religions in the world. However, I have not found any other mythical creatures in Islam, save the *jinn*, which is a type of fire spirit. Are there any other mythical creatures in Islam?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7922" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1618" RevisionGUID="e220a452-4a2d-4ec3-bd53-2e3cf12453d3" CreationDate="2016-08-29T06:16:10.417" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="7923" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1936" RevisionGUID="034bdef7-b2c1-4eb9-8900-0cf9bde38b86" CreationDate="2016-08-29T06:42:35.690" UserId="57" Comment="edited body" Text="Islam is arguably one of the most important religions in the world. However, I have not found any other mythical creatures in Islam, save the *jinn*, which is a type of fire spirit. Are there any other mythical creatures in Islam?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7924" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1937" RevisionGUID="fe034ae9-f7ef-408d-91b3-2ffa5f8a4a39" CreationDate="2016-08-29T07:17:42.260" UserId="2774" Text="The mythical Roc which is a giant bird. Appears in the Arabian Nights. And Jinn as they appear in the Arabian Nights are not specifically fire related.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;You find the Ifrit, in the tale of the Fisherman.[![enter image description here][1]][1]&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Add Ghouls which are islamic in origin.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The Buraq a kind of mixture between Pegasus and a centaur [![enter image description here][2]][2]&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The Beast of the Earth, [Wikipedia link][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/2WJnb.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/N6bxr.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beast_of_the_Earth" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7926" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1938" RevisionGUID="2d795ae2-951b-4dff-92df-fc5024c70b5f" CreationDate="2016-08-29T12:29:58.903" UserId="2936" Text="I believe that when Kronos 'castarated'  Ouranos, he destroyed his human-like appearance so that he could no longer appear on Earth to assert himself as a king. Kronos just exiled him into the air. He's not dead, _per se_, he would now be just a dome over the earth." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7927" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1675" RevisionGUID="d4f7b1fc-522d-4174-bd69-9c5784c8a247" CreationDate="2016-08-29T13:23:42.957" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="7928" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1939" RevisionGUID="8054ff40-78b2-4bf8-95a8-2d1abd80a682" CreationDate="2016-08-29T18:57:21.770" UserId="2892" Text="It depends on the source.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [Oresteia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oresteia), where their role is central, they are represented as having a single purpose, that of hounding Orestes for the blood sin of killing his mother.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, in the [Aeneid Book VII](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0054%3Abook%3D7%3Acard%3D323), Juno sends Alecto on a solo mission.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The names of these three Furies are variously translated--Wikipedia is not definitive in this regard. Their individual names seem to indicate that each specializes in punishing a different type of crime.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In many mythologies, particularly Classical Mythology, there is the idea of the [tripartite goddess](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_deity) (think &quot;mother&quot;, &quot;maiden&quot;, &quot;crone&quot;,) who often represent three aspects of a single entity or idea. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, although the Furies may be thought to possess distinct attributes, they are all aspects of the single idea of vengeance, i.e. righteous &quot;fury&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7929" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1939" RevisionGUID="e70a95ec-1641-4158-8d9a-dfc868556a79" CreationDate="2016-08-29T19:02:28.703" UserId="2892" Comment="A few minor edits, hopefully, for improved readability. " Text="It depends on the source.  In the [Oresteia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oresteia), where their role is central, they are represented as having a single purpose, that of hounding Orestes for the blood sin of killing his mother.  However, in the [Aeneid Book VII](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0054%3Abook%3D7%3Acard%3D323), Juno sends Alecto on a solo mission.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The names of these three Furies are variously translated (Wikipedia is *not* definitive in this regard) and their individual names seem to indicate that each specializes in punishing a different type of crime.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In many mythologies, particularly Classical Mythology, there is the idea of the [tripartite goddess](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_deity) *(think &quot;mother&quot;, &quot;maiden&quot;, &quot;crone&quot;)* who often represent three aspects of a single entity or idea. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, although the Furies may be thought to possess distinct attributes, they are all aspects of the single idea of vengeance, i.e. righteous &quot;fury&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7930" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1937" RevisionGUID="c6320bdc-e487-4f0c-9497-08ea5084cdd6" CreationDate="2016-08-29T19:26:26.807" UserId="2892" Comment="Cleaned up some sentences and added links.  " Text="The mythical [Roc](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roc_%28mythology%29) which is a giant bird, appears in the Arabian Nights. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You will find the [Ifrit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ifrit), a subclass of the Jinn, in the tale of the Fisherman.[![enter image description here][1]][1]&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ghouls](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghoul), (&quot;ghūl&quot;), the earliest appearance of which may be the [One Thousand and One Nights](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Thousand_and_One_Nights), are Arabian in origin.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Buraq](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buraq) is a hybrid, sort of a  mix between a Pegasus and a centaur, and most notably appear as a mount of Muhhammad. [![enter image description here][2]][2]&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The Beast of the Earth, [Wikipedia link][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/2WJnb.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/N6bxr.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beast_of_the_Earth&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;Note: The [Jinn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinn), also commonly &quot;Genies&quot;, as they appear in the Arabian Nights are not specifically fire related.&lt;BR&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7931" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1937" RevisionGUID="c6320bdc-e487-4f0c-9497-08ea5084cdd6" CreationDate="2016-08-29T19:26:26.807" Comment="Proposed by 2892 approved by 2774 edit id of 360" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7932" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1937" RevisionGUID="34bf2e44-d6c3-40cc-8bed-617a727f1648" CreationDate="2016-08-29T19:28:05.593" UserId="2774" Comment="deleted 135 characters in body" Text="The mythical [Roc](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roc_%28mythology%29) which is a giant bird, appears in the Arabian Nights. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You will find the [Ifrit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ifrit), a subclass of the Jinn, in the tale of the Fisherman.[![enter image description here][1]][1]&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ghouls](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghoul), (&quot;ghūl&quot;) are Arabian in origin.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Buraq](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buraq) is a hybrid, sort of a  mix between a Pegasus and a centaur. [![enter image description here][2]][2]&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The Beast of the Earth, [Wikipedia link][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/2WJnb.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/N6bxr.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beast_of_the_Earth&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;Note: The [Jinn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinn), also commonly &quot;Genies&quot;, as they appear in the Arabian Nights are not specifically fire related.&lt;BR&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7933" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1940" RevisionGUID="34a97bbd-276e-44e3-b92c-17e341065cce" CreationDate="2016-08-29T22:55:10.867" UserId="2892" Text="For Classical Mythology specifically, Robert Graves' [The Greek Myths](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Greek_Myths#cite_note-1) is still my favorite.  Although much of the scholarship is dated, Graves was a very fine artist in addition to being a Classical Scholar, thus many of his insights are quite worthwhile. *(Graves famously asserted in [The White Goddess](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Goddess) that classical scholars lack &quot;the poetic capacity to forensically examine mythology&quot;;)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;Another great aspect of Graves is he was incorporating may of the ideas of the [Golden Bough](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Bough#Reception). Frazer is no longer considered very credible from an anthropological perspective (he was quite early in the field,) his work extremely influential in many areas of 20th century literature, thus retains value from the perspective of art. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7934" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1624" RevisionGUID="1e7b39fa-8852-4f1f-88f3-1fb4a80f1e82" CreationDate="2016-08-30T01:49:32.817" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 91 characters in body" Text="I would take a look at the field of folkloristics/folklore studies. This branch of academia is very concerned with the comparative method (i.e. comparisons between cultures), and they've done extensive studies of parallels in the stories of different cultures. One example of this: folklorists are the people who create [motive indexes][1], which are essentially extensive lists of parallels between the stories of different cultures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of what to read: any book by Alan Dundes is a good bet ([you probably will be able to find one of his books in a local library][2]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm sure you've been told to read something by Joseph Campbell (or someone similar). Feel free to read his books -- they're entertaining and interesting -- but [they have a some serious problems][3] and should be taken with a grain of salt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/1262/62&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=au%3Aalan%20dundes&amp;qt=advanced&amp;dblist=638&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://taxicrash.github.io/2014/12/30/monomyth-incorrect-dangerous/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7935" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1940" RevisionGUID="1acced64-32bf-4d6e-8acd-a630befd5854" CreationDate="2016-08-30T02:29:53.547" UserId="2892" Comment="cleaned up some sentences and added the point about why graves in re this question" Text="For Classical Mythology specifically, Robert Graves' [The Greek Myths](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Greek_Myths#cite_note-1) is still my favorite.  Although much of the scholarship is dated, Graves was a very fine artist in addition to being a Classical Scholar, thus many of his insights are quite worthwhile. *(Graves famously asserted in [The White Goddess](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Goddess) that classical scholars lack &quot;the poetic capacity to forensically examine mythology&quot;;)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Graves extensively annotates The Greek Myths, and very often draws parallels to other the mythologies of other cultures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;Another great aspect of Graves is he incorporates many of the ideas of the [Golden Bough](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Bough#Reception). Frazer is no longer considered credible from an anthropological perspective *(he was quite early in the field,)* but his work was extremely influential in many areas of 20th century literature. Thus retains value from the perspective of art. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7936" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1941" RevisionGUID="0c9dccc5-2cc6-4d9c-b434-37fd38591579" CreationDate="2016-08-30T07:28:39.950" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="The goddess Ameteratsu is the Japanese Sun goddess and the queen of the deities of the Shinto pantheon. Inari is the Japanese deity of agriculture and food.Both of these gods are very popular in the Shinto pantheon and I am wondering if they have any consorts?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7937" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1941" RevisionGUID="0c9dccc5-2cc6-4d9c-b434-37fd38591579" CreationDate="2016-08-30T07:28:39.950" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Do the gods Ameteratsu and Inari have any consorts?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7938" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1941" RevisionGUID="0c9dccc5-2cc6-4d9c-b434-37fd38591579" CreationDate="2016-08-30T07:28:39.950" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="|gods|japanese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7939" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1942" RevisionGUID="f26b87dd-9618-4db4-bc33-12e97ca97faf" CreationDate="2016-08-30T07:52:59.043" UserId="2774" Text="Amateratsu is traditionnaly the spouse of her very own brother Tsukuyomi. You can check [Wikipedia][1].&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In case of Inari he was married with Ukemochi and after Tsukuyomi slain her he married Mitama (Uga-no-Mitama).&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Note also that Inari is vastly renown to have both a male and female form and those spouses are much more the &quot;traditionally in some myths&quot; spouses than the definitives wifes. Some other traditions mention that Ukemochi and Mitama are a form of Inari.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amaterasu" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7940" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1943" RevisionGUID="284aac89-3f03-4eeb-b302-a052746a756e" CreationDate="2016-08-30T11:31:03.960" UserId="2939" Text="The religious phenomenon has, in my opinion, this structure: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*This structure is not necessarily true for every religious phenomena, here i try to draw a common line that can be followed*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - A goddess, related to earth, prosperity, etc&#xD;&#xA; - A god, related to sky, with all the attributes, because a god that &quot;lives in the sky&quot; has power over the clouds, the winds, the thunder, etc&#xD;&#xA; - A younger god, as you say, sometimes the son or in a way related to the love of the goddess and the god, like the union between apsu and tiamat. &#xD;&#xA;*The below waters and the above waters*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This structure appears in different religions and religious manifestations. &#xD;&#xA;An important aspect of this kind of replacement, father god replaces the mother god, and the father god is replaced by the son god is very well explained in **J. G. Frazer** book ***The Golden Bough: a Study in Magic and Religion (1890)*** and it is a practice that belongs to matriarchal societies / beliefs. In short in a matriarchal society if a man wants to marry a woman, the man goes and establish hiself inside the woman's village.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; *- Woman and Man are from different villages*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If there are two or more men that want the same woman, there will be a contest or a battle between them and the fittest will take her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; *- Only the strongest, the fittest man can have the woman. This is a virility demonstration.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The idea is that the mother goddess needs a new husband to procreate, a new king. This process is repeated at the human scale in *primitive* societies and goes up to greeks and others, like *Oedip*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*To answer the &quot;storm god problem&quot;:*&#xD;&#xA;Every god related to the sky is also related to the sun, the stars, the sky phenomena, etc. All are attributes of the same god. Even if there are more complex religious phenomena and there is a god for thunder, a god for sun, a god for moon, in essence this idea is valid.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't know if many cults did the switch at the same time, but if we think that is a phenomen from the evolution of religious ideas around the world and this phenomen appears after another that is also verified to be a common one, yes they appear at the same time, not the chronological human time, but the religious evolution time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't know if there are studies written on this topic but Frazer, Dumezil, Eliade, etc are a good start.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7941" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1944" RevisionGUID="5928a973-3a97-4daa-bece-5c7389f8cbc3" CreationDate="2016-08-30T18:46:41.787" UserId="2943" Text="The Aztecs believed that our world was created 5 times, and 4 times destroyed before; these are the so-called &quot;Five Suns&quot;. I know that the present epoch by the Aztec calendar, i.e. the &quot;Fifth Sun&quot;, began on 3113 BCE. What are the dates of the previous 4 &quot;Suns&quot;?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7942" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1944" RevisionGUID="5928a973-3a97-4daa-bece-5c7389f8cbc3" CreationDate="2016-08-30T18:46:41.787" UserId="2943" Text="What are the dates of the “Five Suns” in the Aztec calendar?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7943" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1944" RevisionGUID="5928a973-3a97-4daa-bece-5c7389f8cbc3" CreationDate="2016-08-30T18:46:41.787" UserId="2943" Text="|aztec|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7946" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1914" RevisionGUID="43e38e31-dcc4-4869-8a62-a342ea4a51a5" CreationDate="2016-08-31T17:29:24.957" UserId="2687" Comment="Added useful tag." Text="|comparative|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7947" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1914" RevisionGUID="43e38e31-dcc4-4869-8a62-a342ea4a51a5" CreationDate="2016-08-31T17:29:24.957" Comment="Proposed by 2687 approved by 967, 292 edit id of 359" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7948" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1946" RevisionGUID="c67a64bb-d80c-410a-a1ee-17be96d5c9c5" CreationDate="2016-08-31T20:54:21.177" UserId="197" Text="In the story of Jules Verne's novel *Voyage au Centre de la Terre*, the protagonist acquires a very rare book: a copy of the *Heimskrigla*, the famous chronicle of the kings of Sweden written by the 13th century writer Snorri Sturluson.  That manuscript copy is in the original Icelandic, written in the runic alphabet (futhark).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is such a manuscript known in the real world?  If not, is it realistically possible that such a manuscript existed?  I'd have assumed all such codexes were written in the latin alphabet instead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The following are quotes from [the novel, chapter 2][2].  (An English translation can be found on Project Gutenberg: [A Journey to the Interior of the Earth][e] (1877) translated by Frederick Amadeus Malleson.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; — Cet ouvrage ! répondit mon oncle en s’animant, c’est l’Heims-Kringla de Snorre Turleson, le fameux auteur islandais du douzième siècle ! C’est la Chronique des princes norvégiens qui régnèrent en Islande !&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; […] Ceci est l’ouvrage original en langue islandaise, […] &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; […] Mais, ignorant, c’est un manuscrit, et un manuscrit runique !…&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; […] &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; « Les runes, reprit-il, étaient des caractères d’écriture usités autrefois en Islande, et, suivant la tradition, ils furent inventés par Odin lui-même ! […] »&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[2]: https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Voyage_au_centre_de_la_Terre/Chapitre_2&#xD;&#xA;[e]: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/3748" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7949" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1946" RevisionGUID="c67a64bb-d80c-410a-a1ee-17be96d5c9c5" CreationDate="2016-08-31T20:54:21.177" UserId="197" Text="Is a runic manuscript of the Heimskringla realistic?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7950" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1946" RevisionGUID="c67a64bb-d80c-410a-a1ee-17be96d5c9c5" CreationDate="2016-08-31T20:54:21.177" UserId="197" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7951" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1946" RevisionGUID="24ae9a9f-1d69-421f-b5ad-f7a93bd97a25" CreationDate="2016-08-31T21:11:05.403" UserId="197" Comment="add quotes from Malleson's English translation, on bleh's request" Text="In the story of Jules Verne's novel *Voyage au Centre de la Terre*, the protagonist acquires a very rare book: a copy of the *Heimskrigla*, the famous chronicle of the kings of Sweden written by the 13th century writer Snorri Sturluson.  That manuscript copy is in the original Icelandic, written in the runic alphabet (futhark).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is such a manuscript known in the real world?  If not, is it realistically possible that such a manuscript existed?  I'd have assumed all such codexes were written in the latin alphabet instead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The following are quotes from [the novel, chapter 2][2].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; — Cet ouvrage ! répondit mon oncle en s’animant, c’est l’Heims-Kringla de Snorre Turleson, le fameux auteur islandais du douzième siècle ! C’est la Chronique des princes norvégiens qui régnèrent en Islande !&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; […] Ceci est l’ouvrage original en langue islandaise, […] &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; […] Mais, ignorant, c’est un manuscrit, et un manuscrit runique !…&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; […] &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; « Les runes, reprit-il, étaient des caractères d’écriture usités autrefois en Islande, et, suivant la tradition, ils furent inventés par Odin lui-même ! […] »&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here are the quotes from an English translation, which can be found on Project Gutenberg: [A Journey to the Interior of the Earth][e] (1877) translated by Frederick Amadeus Malleson.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;This work,&quot; replied my uncle, firing up with renewed enthusiasm, &quot;this work is the Heims Kringla of Snorre Turlleson, the most famous Icelandic author of the twelfth century! It is the chronicle of the Norwegian princes who ruled in Iceland.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; […]  This is the Icelandic original, […] &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;[…] It is a manuscript, a Runic manuscript.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; […]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Runic characters were in use in Iceland in former ages. They were invented, it is said, by Odin himself. […]&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[2]: https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Voyage_au_centre_de_la_Terre/Chapitre_2&#xD;&#xA;[e]: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/3748" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7952" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1946" RevisionGUID="7f033322-dc84-455d-a219-e2c7b83e0b9c" CreationDate="2016-08-31T21:42:00.980" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|runes|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7955" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1948" RevisionGUID="48805c83-02da-4e02-9d75-c22a1cef8bcd" CreationDate="2016-08-31T23:49:43.370" UserId="2951" Text="It seems that the name of Jesus has is mentioned in the bible under a few different names. Hence the curiosity to know what His real name was when he walked on earth." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7956" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1948" RevisionGUID="48805c83-02da-4e02-9d75-c22a1cef8bcd" CreationDate="2016-08-31T23:49:43.370" UserId="2951" Text="What was Jesus's original name?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7957" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1948" RevisionGUID="48805c83-02da-4e02-9d75-c22a1cef8bcd" CreationDate="2016-08-31T23:49:43.370" UserId="2951" Text="|history|bible|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7958" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1948" RevisionGUID="9a001700-8f85-4632-afda-74615b799c8b" CreationDate="2016-08-31T23:53:28.267" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|christianity|bible|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7959" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1949" RevisionGUID="994d2fbe-e73c-490c-9179-a094a8592b13" CreationDate="2016-08-31T23:54:42.427" UserId="2892" Text="My understanding is that, from the Hebrew perspective at least, [Yeshua](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua) would be one answer. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;The name corresponds to the Greek spelling Iesous, from which, through the Latin Iesus, comes the English spelling Jesus.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------&#xD;&#xA;References: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ilan, Tal (2002). Lexicon of Jewish Names in Late Antiquity Part I: Palestine 330 BCE–200 CE (Texte und Studien zum Antiken Judentum 91). Tübingen, Germany: J.C.B. Mohr. p. 129.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Stern, David (1992). Jewish New Testament Commentary. Clarksville, Maryland: Jewish New Testament Publications. pp. 4–5.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7960" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1949" RevisionGUID="186b1945-fa58-44c8-a942-a9e495a58afb" CreationDate="2016-09-01T00:00:54.273" UserId="2892" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="My understanding is that, from the Hebrew perspective at least, [Yeshua](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua) would be one answer. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*&quot;The name corresponds to the Greek spelling Iesous, from which, through the Latin Iesus, comes the English spelling Jesus.&quot;*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------&#xD;&#xA;References: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ilan, Tal (2002). Lexicon of Jewish Names in Late Antiquity Part I: Palestine 330 BCE–200 CE (Texte und Studien zum Antiken Judentum 91). Tübingen, Germany: J.C.B. Mohr. p. 129.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Stern, David (1992). Jewish New Testament Commentary. Clarksville, Maryland: Jewish New Testament Publications. pp. 4–5.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7961" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1950" RevisionGUID="248e1adc-cb84-429f-b1dc-171a3d588856" CreationDate="2016-09-01T01:47:02.937" UserId="201" Text="You are essentially correct: If a centaur were real, it would have a lot of duplicate structures which don't make anatomical sense:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![fake centaur skeleton][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The answer, of course, is that centaurs are just as mythical as Pegasus (bird/horse cross), gryphons (lion/eagle cross), hippogriffs (eagle/horse cross), and jackalopes (jackrabbit/antelope cross). They *looked* cool.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/gIZ5C.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7963" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1951" RevisionGUID="2e1fbd64-3a82-49f0-bfb9-59613311696a" CreationDate="2016-09-01T06:41:33.383" UserId="666" Text="First: would a manuscript written in runes be plausible at all? Sure; the [Scanian law][1], the first Scandinavian *landskapslag* to be written down, was in runic script.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Secondly: Were runes known on Iceland? Sure. The tradition of erecting rune stones never got there, so what we have are later manuscripts discussing runes, but this they did to a large degree. The knowledge about how to write runes were eventually lost to Danish and Swedish antiquarians, but were kept alive on Iceland (and among the people in mainland Scandinavia). An antiquarian as Snorri could reasonably be expected to know them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Third: Did Snorri actually know runes? Unknown. According to [*Sturlunga saga][2]*, he was warned about the plot against his life in a letter written in what was likely some kind of cipher runes, but could not understand them. This does not prove that he could not understand ordinary runes; it might even be taken as a sign that the letter writer thought that he probably could.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Fourth: Do we know of any runic manuscript of Heimskringla? No. Do we know of any other icelandic manuscript written only in runes? No. Do we have reason to suppose that such a thing ever existed? No.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, to answer the question: such a manuscript, while not totally impossible, is highly unlikely. However, there are certainly larger mistakes made by Verne in the text (Snorri was born in 1179, so he was more correctly a thirteenth century author, and the Heimskringla is mostly about Norwegian kings ruling Norway, with very little information about Iceland at all).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanian_Law&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturlunga_saga" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7965" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1952" RevisionGUID="3ae23364-e054-4d18-b592-7b85e20ac790" CreationDate="2016-09-02T10:55:35.647" UserId="2682" Text="It depends on which language we're talking about. 1st-century A.D. Palestine was a multicultural, multilingual location (not much unlike the same region is at present day). The classic Biblical indication of this, in the canonical biographies of Jesus, is John 19.19-20, which says that when Jesus was crucified,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pilate also wrote an inscription and put it on the cross. Now on it&#xD;&#xA;&gt; had been written, &quot;Jesus the Nazarene: King of the Jews.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; So many of the Jews read this inscription because the place where Jesus was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; crucified was near to the city, and it had been written in **Hebrew**, in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Greek**, and in Roman [*i.e. **Latin***].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The common popular modern English rendition ***Jesus*** derives from the Latin, which essentially is spelled the same way, except for the fact that initially the letter `J` was merely a slightly fancier way of writing the letter `I`. They originally had the same pronunciation and bore similar functions. As recently as the 1580s, when the Geneva Bible was published, *Jesus* was written `Iesus` and *Jews* was spelled `Iewes`. (Cf. names like Julius = `Iulius` &amp; Justus = `Iustus`.) E.g., this is what the aforementioned passage read in the 1611 edition of its King James Version:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the crosse. And the writing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was, IESVS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE IEWES. This title then read&#xD;&#xA;&gt; many of the Iewes: for the place where **Iesus** was crucified, was nigh&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to the citie, and it was written in Hebrewe, and Greeke, and Latine.  &#xD;&#xA;`emphasis added`&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By the 1770s the spellings with which we're currently familiar had become the standard. Previous to French importations of words and pronunciations into the English language, Iesus/Jesus would have been pronounced *yeh-soos*. The original Latin, of the same spelling(s), spoken by someone like Pontius Pilatus at the time of the Crucifixion, would have been something like *ee.ay.soos*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Back in 1385 John Wycliffe published an English translation of the New Testament in which the aforementioned passage reads as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Pilat wroot a title, and sette on the cros; and it was writun,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Jhesu** of Nazareth, king of Jewis. Therfor manye of the Jewis redden&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this title, for the place where **Jhesus** was crucified, was niy the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; citee, and it was writun in Ebreu, Greek, and Latyn.  &#xD;&#xA;`with my emphases`&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Greek the name is spelled today pretty much the way it was 2000 years ago, in modern Greek as Ιησούς and more anciently as Ἰησοῦς, both of which transliterate into **Iesous** (or Iēsoûs). Its pronunciation is not terribly different from its Latin counterpart part. However, using the [International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet), [Wiktionary](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%B8%CE%B7%CF%83%CE%BF%E1%BF%A6%CF%82#Ancient_Greek) has the following examples of its transformation in various permutations of Greek over the centuries:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  - 5th BC Attic: IPA: /i.ɛː.so᷇ːs/&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  - 1st BC Egyptian: IPA: /i.e.ˈsus/    &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  - 4th AD Koine: IPA: /i.i.ˈsus/&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  - 10th AD Byzantine: IPA: /i.i.ˈsus/    &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  - 15th AD Constantinopolitan: IPA: /i.i.ˈsus/&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Just as with English today, 1st-century Hebrew was a fluid phenomenon, collecting words and concepts from other languages with which it interacted, and it also was being spoken in several different parts of the Roman Empire as well as in parts of Africa beyond the scope of the Imperium. There are many different dialects of English today. Similarly there were many different dialects of Hebrew in the 1st century (as there still are at present). In the neighbourhood in which Jesus grew up and where he lived there was so much influence of the Aramaic language that it's become a topic of warm debate today whether the Jews spoke any Hebrew at all at the time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What Jesus and the people who knew him would have called him would have depended on which dialect of which language they preferred to communicate in, and often enough it was an admixture of Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. (Even the Greek texts of the New Testament themselves are peppered with Aramaicisms from the native tongue of some of their authors.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Steve Caruso of [AramaicNT](http://aramaicnt.org/), Jesus' native language was Galilean Aramaic, which was West Semitic and significantly different from the later Eastern, Syriac Aramaic in which the Pešîṭtâ (ancient Aramaic New Testament) was written. Caruso's transliteration of the Galilean version of Jesus' name is **y&lt;sup&gt;e&lt;/sup&gt;shua‘**. Victor Alexander, of [V-A.com](http://www.v-a.com/bible/index.html), is currently working on his own English translation of the Pešîṭtâ, in which he transliterates Jesus as *Eashoa*, which is his take on the modern Syriac Christian pronunciation *isho‘* (which sounds something like *eShow*) and is also commonly Latinised as **Yešū‘**. According to the IVP New Bible Dictionary, the Greek form of the name reflects this Aramaic contraction of Hebrew **יהושע** (**y&lt;sup&gt;e&lt;/sup&gt;hošua‘**), which is normally rendered in English as &quot;Joshua.&quot; Other renditions could be Yahoshua, Yahushua or Yihoshua. (The Hindi version Yahoshoo may inadvertently be correct as well.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Already from about 400 years before the birth of Christ, *Yehoshua* had been contracted into *Yeshua*, which is one of the reasons why, among other quirks of linguistics, the Greek version is also noticeably shorter. Jesus Christ did have many contemporaries, however, who shared his extremely popular name with him. In Hebrew they were typically called Yehoshua (perhaps Yeshu[a] in Aramaic) while in Greek they were Iesous (and Iesus in Latin). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(In Greek even the famous Hebrew Conquest hero Yehoshua [Joshua], after whom the 6th book of the Bible is named, is called Iesous. He is often referred to as Jesus of Naue [from his father's name] to distinguish him from Jesus of Nazareth.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Christ is believed to have spent a few of his earliest years in Egypt, where a plethora of tongues was spoken, including Ancient Egyptian, Kushite, Arabic, Punic and some ancient Iranian languages. The beginning of the Book of the Acts of the Apostles indicates that Jews who spoke these languages, as well as Berber, Elamite, Cretan and others, annually visited Jerusalem for festivals. So there are also these tongues within which to consider &quot;original/ real&quot; form(s) of Jesus's name, which people (perhaps he himself) may actually have used during his mortal life. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A fairly similar question might be what the original/ real form of Caesar or Alexander the Great is. With enough fame and influence (such as Christ, Caesar and Alexander possessed during their lifetimes on earth) the answer to this multiplies exponentially across different societies.          " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7966" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1952" RevisionGUID="2ac78e55-f937-4356-9b8f-dabcaf97ba17" CreationDate="2016-09-02T11:06:15.610" UserId="2682" Comment="tidied up some of the facts" Text="It depends on which language we're talking about. 1st-century A.D. Palestine was a multicultural, multilingual location (not much unlike the same region is at present day). The classic Biblical indication of this, in the canonical biographies of Jesus, is John 19.19-20, which says that when Jesus was crucified,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pilate also wrote an inscription and put it on the cross. Now on it&#xD;&#xA;&gt; had been written, &quot;Jesus the Nazarene: King of the Jews.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; So many of the Jews read this inscription because the place where Jesus was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; crucified was near to the city, and it had been written in **Hebrew**, in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Greek**, and in Roman [*i.e. **Latin***].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The common popular modern English rendition ***Jesus*** derives from the Latin, which essentially is spelled the same way, except for the fact that initially the letter `J` was merely a slightly fancier way of writing the letter `I`. They originally had the same pronunciation and bore similar functions. As recently as the 1580s, when the Geneva Bible was published, *Jesus* was written `Iesus` and *Jews* was spelled `Iewes`. (Cf. names like Julius = `Iulius` &amp; Justus = `Iustus`.) E.g., this is what the aforementioned passage read in the 1611 edition of its King James Version:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the crosse. And the writing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was, IESVS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE IEWES. This title then read&#xD;&#xA;&gt; many of the Iewes: for the place where **Iesus** was crucified, was nigh&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to the citie, and it was written in Hebrewe, and Greeke, and Latine.  &#xD;&#xA;`emphasis added`&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By the 1770s the spellings with which we're currently familiar had become the standard. Previous to French importations of words and pronunciations into the English language, Iesus/Jesus would have been pronounced *yeh-soos*. The original Latin, of the same spelling(s), spoken by someone like Pontius Pilatus at the time of the Crucifixion, would have been something like *ee.ay.soos*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Back in 1385 John Wycliffe published an English translation of the New Testament in which the aforementioned passage reads as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Pilat wroot a title, and sette on the cros; and it was writun,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Jhesu** of Nazareth, king of Jewis. Therfor manye of the Jewis redden&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this title, for the place where **Jhesus** was crucified, was niy the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; citee, and it was writun in Ebreu, Greek, and Latyn.  &#xD;&#xA;`with my emphases`&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Greek the name is spelled today pretty much the way it was 2000 years ago, in modern Greek as Ιησούς and more anciently as Ἰησοῦς, both of which transliterate into **Iesous** (or Iēsoûs). Its pronunciation is not terribly different from its Latin counterpart part. However, using the [International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet), [Wiktionary](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%B8%CE%B7%CF%83%CE%BF%E1%BF%A6%CF%82#Ancient_Greek) has the following examples of its transformation in various permutations of Greek over the centuries:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  - 5th BC Attic: IPA: /i.ɛː.so᷇ːs/&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  - 1st BC Egyptian: IPA: /i.e.ˈsus/    &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  - 4th AD Koine: IPA: /i.i.ˈsus/&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  - 10th AD Byzantine: IPA: /i.i.ˈsus/    &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  - 15th AD Constantinopolitan: IPA: /i.i.ˈsus/&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Just as with English today, 1st-century Hebrew was a fluid phenomenon, collecting words and concepts from other languages with which it interacted, and it also was being spoken in several different parts of the Roman Empire as well as in parts of Africa beyond the scope of the Imperium. There are many different dialects of English today. Similarly there were many different dialects of Hebrew in the 1st century (as there still are at present). In the neighbourhood in which Jesus grew up and where he lived there was so much influence of the Aramaic language that it's become a topic of warm debate today whether the Jews spoke any Hebrew at all at the time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What Jesus and the people who knew him would have called him would have depended on which dialect of which language they preferred to communicate in, and often enough it was an admixture of Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. (Even the Greek texts of the New Testament themselves are peppered with Aramaicisms from the native tongue of some of their authors.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Steve Caruso of [AramaicNT](http://aramaicnt.org/), Jesus' native language was Galilean Aramaic, which was West Semitic and significantly different from the later Eastern, Syriac Aramaic in which the Pešîṭtâ (ancient Aramaic New Testament) was written. Caruso's transliteration of the Galilean version of Jesus' name is **y&lt;sup&gt;e&lt;/sup&gt;shua‘**, which is similar to **Yešū‘**, the common Latinisation of the West Syriac version. Victor Alexander, of [V-A.com](http://www.v-a.com/bible/index.html), is currently working on his own English translation of the Pešîṭtâ, in which he transliterates Jesus as *Eashoa*, which is his take on the East Syriac pronunciation *isho‘* (said something like *eShow*). According to the IVP New Bible Dictionary, the Greek form of the name reflects this Aramaic contraction of Hebrew **יהושע** (**y&lt;sup&gt;e&lt;/sup&gt;hošua‘**), which is normally rendered in English as &quot;Joshua.&quot; Other renditions could be Yahoshua, Yahushua or Yihoshua. (The Hindi version Yahoshoo may inadvertently be correct as well.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Already from about 400 years before the birth of Christ, *Yehoshua* had been contracted into *Yeshua*, which is one of the reasons why, among other quirks of linguistics, the Greek version is also noticeably shorter. Jesus Christ did have many contemporaries, however, who shared his extremely popular name with him. In Hebrew they were typically called Yehoshua (Yeshu[a] in Aramaic) while in Greek they were Iesous (and Iesus in Latin). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(In Greek even the famous Hebrew Conquest hero Yehoshua [Joshua], after whom the 6th book of the Bible is named, is called Iesous. He is often referred to as Jesus of Naue [from his father's name] to distinguish him from Jesus of Nazareth.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Christ is believed to have spent a few of his earliest years in Egypt, where a plethora of tongues was spoken, including Ancient Egyptian, Kushite, Arabic, Punic and some ancient Iranian languages. The beginning of the Book of the Acts of the Apostles indicates that Jews who spoke these languages, as well as Berber, Elamite, Cretan and others, annually visited Jerusalem for festivals. So there are also these tongues within which to consider &quot;original/ real&quot; form(s) of Jesus's name, which people (perhaps he himself) may actually have used during his mortal life. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A fairly similar question might be what the original/ real form of Caesar or Alexander the Great is. With enough fame and influence (such as Christ, Caesar and Alexander possessed during their lifetimes on earth) the answer to this multiplies exponentially across different societies.          " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7967" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1953" RevisionGUID="7e340d5d-66ef-41a1-a91c-1686f095b6cc" CreationDate="2016-09-02T15:44:56.200" UserId="2892" Text="It seems to me, as a student of mythology and an artist, that Ragnarök has indeed already happened. Yes the world is &quot;destroyed&quot;, but it is then renewed and repopulated by humans. It seems quite clear we live in this post-apocalyptic, repopulated word sans Gods and Giants.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But of course, this is a subjective take." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7969" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1954" RevisionGUID="a1af01d3-b876-4240-a795-d9c9501d7407" CreationDate="2016-09-02T22:21:24.860" UserId="1455" Text="Many years ago (the mid-1980s) someone described to me a belief (at the time I assumed in England, possibly in other parts of the UK or Europe) that a burial ground was guarded by the spirit of the most recently interred body. For this reason, when one was being 'retired' it was traditional to bury a dog or cat there so that the spirit that got stuck guarding it for eternity was not a human one. In the time since I have occasionally attempted to identify the origin of this belief but I can't find it anywhere. Can anyone confirm this belief and if so identify where and when it appeared and whether it is still in place anywhere?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It wasn't clear from the description whether this belief was specific to graveyards, to burial grounds without a church, or to both." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7970" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1954" RevisionGUID="a1af01d3-b876-4240-a795-d9c9501d7407" CreationDate="2016-09-02T22:21:24.860" UserId="1455" Text="Traditional beliefs regarding guardians of burial grounds" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7971" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1954" RevisionGUID="a1af01d3-b876-4240-a795-d9c9501d7407" CreationDate="2016-09-02T22:21:24.860" UserId="1455" Text="|superstition|afterlife|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7972" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1954" RevisionGUID="79b02ec5-9682-4d91-a100-c4804addb39f" CreationDate="2016-09-03T04:10:53.747" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|superstition|afterlife|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7973" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1955" RevisionGUID="d922ead2-c844-4798-bb9e-37c27b6255bc" CreationDate="2016-09-03T08:10:24.760" UserId="666" Text="If you want to. The three years without summer, the [Fimbulwinter][1], a portent of Ragnarök, has been speculated by some to have been a memory of the [years 535-536][2], when temperatures dropped sharply and crops failed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And while the Ragnarök is indeed the end of the known world, as cybermike noted, the earth will rise again from the sea afterwards, renewed and better than before. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fimbulwinter&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_weather_events_of_535%E2%80%93536" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7974" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1956" RevisionGUID="fab179a5-6cde-411e-beed-51651c45b4f2" CreationDate="2016-09-03T13:31:31.923" UserId="2956" Text="I am a member of a practicing and well-established Coven. Though we are eclectic and welcome many paths, our head crone follows the Asatru (Nordic Heathenism) path and has studied it for many years. There's a subtle distinction I'd like to make that my coven was discussing not too long ago, which is that there's nothing suggesting that Valhöll gets the elite soldiers. If anything, it is the other way around.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Those who were not slain in battle went to Hel to rest- that much is true. Those that died in battle continued on to Valhöll or Fólkvangr- that much is also true. However, the soldiers were split evenly. This is the accepted belief. Also, Freya was given first pick of the dead for Fólkvangr, leaving Odin whomever she did not want for Valhöll.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We're a far-stretch from the original worshipers and they left us only so much evidence of their faith, so it's hard to tell what Freya's criteria may be (a heart of valor vs many men slain in combat for example), but I hope that this helps answer the question." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7975" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1948" RevisionGUID="305ca692-c58a-47e3-83a7-1bf58cb472a8" CreationDate="2016-09-03T19:17:10.400" UserId="967" Comment="deleted 4 characters in body" Text="It seems that the name of Jesus is mentioned in the Bible under a few different names. Hence the curiosity to know what His real name was when he walked on earth." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7976" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1832" RevisionGUID="1ce396ed-a6e4-4d53-b405-e6e99963d9e3" CreationDate="2016-09-04T03:12:45.487" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="7977" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1832" RevisionGUID="5bc97576-21de-4a3b-9142-a661090f2a05" CreationDate="2016-09-04T19:39:25.190" UserId="967" Comment="added 2 characters in body; edited tags" Text="Or shall I say, what are some beliefs on how wendigos/ witigos/ chenoos (any cannibal ice giant type being from Native American folklore) are defeated? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7978" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1832" RevisionGUID="5bc97576-21de-4a3b-9142-a661090f2a05" CreationDate="2016-09-04T19:39:25.190" UserId="967" Comment="added 2 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|native-american|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7979" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1957" RevisionGUID="affef51b-182b-4cd7-b844-04ccd519c9f6" CreationDate="2016-09-05T03:28:02.600" UserId="967" Text="So I was playing The Binding of Isaac the other day, and there's this character called Lilith.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now I have good reason to believe that this is mythological. For one thing, all of the characters are part of the Bible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Azazel][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Isaac&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Samson&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Magdalene&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and others...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So who is Lilith?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/605/in-leviticus-who-or-what-is-azazel" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7980" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1957" RevisionGUID="affef51b-182b-4cd7-b844-04ccd519c9f6" CreationDate="2016-09-05T03:28:02.600" UserId="967" Text="Who/what is Lilith?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7981" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1957" RevisionGUID="affef51b-182b-4cd7-b844-04ccd519c9f6" CreationDate="2016-09-05T03:28:02.600" UserId="967" Text="|christianity|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7982" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1958" RevisionGUID="b8a78d79-72ef-451a-be50-8dbf2ceb27d4" CreationDate="2016-09-05T07:42:55.687" UserId="2774" Text="Lilith in Mesopotamy&#xD;&#xA;--------------------&#xD;&#xA;First Lilith (Lilitu) is of Mesopotamian origin. She is a female &quot;demon&quot;/&quot;succubus&quot; (Consider I use here modern terms, Sumerian got no clue what those was). We find her in diverse story most notable one is when she is coming to haunt Inanna's tree.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;She is related with death of new born children and such bad things.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lilith in the Holy Bible&#xD;&#xA;------------------------&#xD;&#xA;First there is not even one track of Lilith, per se, in the Holy bible. The one of the Christian. There is that say in the one the Hebrews/Jews. In the Holy Bible  Adam is married to Eve. In some traditions so he got a first wife, precisely Lilith, modeled out of clay. And they divorced. There is several traditions according the readon of their separation. The most renowned (but well truly a joke) is that she wanted to be equal with Adam during sex. Which he was not his taste, hence she was expelled from Paradise. This is from the Alpha Beta. (This is THE tradition you find everywhere.)&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Another one says that she pronounced the name of God/Yahve/Jehovah which is forbbiden and thus escaped. This comes from the Zohar.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The tradition also usually makes her the snake that charmed Eve coiled around the tree of Life (cf. Lilith in Sumer's myth stealing Inana's tree).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lilith in Demonology&#xD;&#xA;--------------------&#xD;&#xA;Demonology also know Lilith as one of the 4 queens of Hell with Na'amah, Agrat Ba'at Malhat and Eischeth Zemium. Consider her as a wife/Consort of the ruler of Hell" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7983" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1958" RevisionGUID="cee1ddba-ad25-4b3c-acaa-f5c6cdcf02d8" CreationDate="2016-09-05T09:50:35.327" UserId="2774" Comment="Added the alpha beta citation" Text="Lilith in Mesopotamy&#xD;&#xA;--------------------&#xD;&#xA;First Lilith (Lilitu) is of Mesopotamian origin. She is a female &quot;demon&quot;/&quot;succubus&quot; (Consider I use here modern terms, Sumerian got no clue what those was). We find her in diverse story most notable one is when she is coming to haunt Inanna's tree in Inanna and the Hullupu tree (We don't know what an Huluppu tree is).&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The years passed; five years, and then ten years.&lt;BR&gt; The tree grew thick,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But its bark did not split.&lt;BR&gt; Then the serpent who could not be charmed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Made it's nest in the roots of the huluppu-tree.&lt;BR&gt; The Anzu-bird set its&#xD;&#xA;&gt; young in the branches of the tree.&lt;BR&gt; And the dark maid Lilith built her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; home in the trunk.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note you find various version and translation, but the idea is always the same. Lilith is vanquished by Gilgamesh there.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;She is related with death of new born children and such bad things.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lilith in the Holy Bible&#xD;&#xA;------------------------&#xD;&#xA;First there is not even one track of Lilith, per se, in the Holy bible. The one of the Christian. There is that say in the one the Hebrews/Jews. In the Holy Bible  Adam is married to Eve. In some traditions so he got a first wife, precisely Lilith, modeled out of clay. And they divorced. There is several traditions according the readon of their separation. The most renowned (but well truly a joke) is that she wanted to be equal with Adam during sex. Which he was not his taste, hence she was expelled from Paradise. This is from the Alpha Beta. (This is THE tradition you find everywhere.) Just here, The Alpha Beta (or Alphabet) 78 (Note this work is renown for being a gigantic satyre):&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When God created the first man Adam alone, God said, “It is not good&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for man to be alone.” [So] God created a woman for him, from the earth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; like him, and called her Lilith. They [Adam and Lilith] promptly began&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to argue with each other: She said, “I will not lie below,” and he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; said, “I will not lie below, but above, since you are fit for being&#xD;&#xA;&gt; below and I for being above.” She said to him, “The two of us are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; equal, since we are both from the earth.” And they would not listen to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; each other. Since Lilith saw [how it was], she uttered God's ineffable&#xD;&#xA;&gt; name and flew away into the air. Adam stood in prayer before his Maker&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and said, “Master of the Universe, the woman you gave me fled from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; me!”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another one says that she pronounced the name of God/Yahve/Jehovah which is forbbiden and thus escaped. This comes from the Zohar.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The tradition also usually makes her the snake that charmed Eve coiled around the tree of Life (cf. Lilith in Sumer's myth stealing Inana's tree).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lilith in Demonology&#xD;&#xA;--------------------&#xD;&#xA;Demonology also know Lilith as one of the 4 queens of Hell with Na'amah, Agrat Ba'at Malhat and Eischeth Zemium. Consider her as a wife/Consort of the ruler of Hell" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7984" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1958" RevisionGUID="5d8e4279-ba92-4e48-af3c-9233bb86bdec" CreationDate="2016-09-05T10:00:40.203" UserId="2774" Comment="added 700 characters in body" Text="Lilith in Mesopotamy&#xD;&#xA;--------------------&#xD;&#xA;First Lilith (Lilitu) is of Mesopotamian origin. She is a female &quot;demon&quot;/&quot;succubus&quot; (Consider I use here modern terms, Sumerian got no clue what those was). We find her in diverse story most notable one is when she is coming to haunt Inanna's tree in Inanna and the Hullupu tree (We don't know what an Huluppu tree is).&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The years passed; five years, and then ten years.&lt;BR&gt; The tree grew thick,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But its bark did not split.&lt;BR&gt; Then the serpent who could not be charmed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Made it's nest in the roots of the huluppu-tree.&lt;BR&gt; The Anzu-bird set its&#xD;&#xA;&gt; young in the branches of the tree.&lt;BR&gt; And the dark maid Lilith built her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; home in the trunk.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note you find various version and translation, but the idea is always the same. Lilith is vanquished by Gilgamesh there.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;She is related with death of new born children and such bad things.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lilith in the Holy Bible&#xD;&#xA;------------------------&#xD;&#xA;First there is not even one track of Lilith, per se, in the Holy bible. The one of the Christian. There is that say in the one the Hebrews/Jews. In the Holy Bible  Adam is married to Eve. In some traditions so he got a first wife, precisely Lilith, modeled out of clay. And they divorced. There is several traditions according the readon of their separation. The most renowned (but well truly a joke) is that she wanted to be equal with Adam during sex. Which he was not his taste, hence she was expelled from Paradise. This is from the Alpha Beta. (This is THE tradition you find everywhere.) Just here, The Alpha Beta (or Alphabet) 78 (Note this work is renown for being a gigantic satyre):&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When God created the first man Adam alone, God said, “It is not good&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for man to be alone.” [So] God created a woman for him, from the earth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; like him, and called her Lilith. They [Adam and Lilith] promptly began&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to argue with each other: She said, “I will not lie below,” and he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; said, “I will not lie below, but above, since you are fit for being&#xD;&#xA;&gt; below and I for being above.” She said to him, “The two of us are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; equal, since we are both from the earth.” And they would not listen to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; each other. Since Lilith saw [how it was], she uttered God's ineffable&#xD;&#xA;&gt; name and flew away into the air. Adam stood in prayer before his Maker&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and said, “Master of the Universe, the woman you gave me fled from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; me!”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another from Zohar says that she was not Adam's first wife or just a concubine and she became over jealous when Eve was created.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; After the primeval light was hidden, a husk was created for the brain,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and that husk spread out and brought forth another husk which was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lilith. And when she emerged, she went up and went down towards the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; little faces, and wanted to attach herself to them and be shaped after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; them, and did not want to depart from them. But the Holy One, blessed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; be He, removed her from there and placed her down below.    When He&#xD;&#xA;&gt; created Adam, in order to perfect this world, as soon as Lilith saw&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eve affixed to the side of Adam, and saw in them the beauty of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Above, and saw their perfect image, she flew off from there and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wanted, as before to attach herself to the little faces.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The tradition also usually makes her the snake that charmed Eve coiled around the tree of Life (cf. Lilith in Sumer's myth stealing Inana's tree).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lilith in Demonology&#xD;&#xA;--------------------&#xD;&#xA;Demonology also know Lilith as one of the 4 queens of Hell with Na'amah, Agrat Ba'at Malhat and Eischeth Zemium. Consider her as a wife/Consort of the ruler of Hell" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7985" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1958" RevisionGUID="1f5ad3e9-00f9-4ea1-b140-55f157f3537d" CreationDate="2016-09-05T10:08:09.333" UserId="2774" Comment="added 700 characters in body" Text="Lilith in Mesopotamy&#xD;&#xA;--------------------&#xD;&#xA;First Lilith (Lilitu) is of Mesopotamian origin. She is a female &quot;demon&quot;/&quot;succubus&quot; (Consider I use here modern terms, Sumerian got no clue what those was). We find her in diverse story most notable one is when she is coming to haunt Inanna's tree in Inanna and the Hullupu tree (We don't know what an Huluppu tree is).&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The years passed; five years, and then ten years.&lt;BR&gt; The tree grew thick,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But its bark did not split.&lt;BR&gt; Then the serpent who could not be charmed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Made it's nest in the roots of the huluppu-tree.&lt;BR&gt; The Anzu-bird set its&#xD;&#xA;&gt; young in the branches of the tree.&lt;BR&gt; And the dark maid Lilith built her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; home in the trunk.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note you find various version and translation, but the idea is always the same. Lilith is vanquished by Gilgamesh there.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;She is related with death of new born children and such bad things.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lilith in the Holy Bible&#xD;&#xA;------------------------&#xD;&#xA;First there is not even one track of Lilith, per se, in the Holy bible. The one of the Christian. that said there is track of what will follow( the Hebraic part) &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; creatures that move along the ground.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 27 So God created mankind in his own image,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    in the image of God he created them;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    male and female he created them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is a well known thing that here men and women are created from clay at the same time... BUT here woman is created AFTER from a man's rib:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But for Adam[f] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the Lord God&#xD;&#xA;&gt; caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he took one of the man’s ribs[g] and then closed up the place with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib[h] he had taken&#xD;&#xA;&gt; out of the man, and he brought her to the man.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lilith for the Hebrews&#xD;&#xA;----------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is that say in the one the Hebrews/Jews. In the Holy Bible  Adam is married to Eve. In some traditions so he got a first wife, precisely Lilith, modeled out of clay. And they divorced. There is several traditions according the readon of their separation. The most renowned (but well truly a joke) is that she wanted to be equal with Adam during sex. Which he was not his taste, hence she was expelled from Paradise. This is from the Alpha Beta. (This is THE tradition you find everywhere.) Just here, The Alpha Beta (or Alphabet) 78 (Note this work is renown for being a gigantic satyre):&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When God created the first man Adam alone, God said, “It is not good&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for man to be alone.” [So] God created a woman for him, from the earth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; like him, and called her Lilith. They [Adam and Lilith] promptly began&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to argue with each other: She said, “I will not lie below,” and he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; said, “I will not lie below, but above, since you are fit for being&#xD;&#xA;&gt; below and I for being above.” She said to him, “The two of us are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; equal, since we are both from the earth.” And they would not listen to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; each other. Since Lilith saw [how it was], she uttered God's ineffable&#xD;&#xA;&gt; name and flew away into the air. Adam stood in prayer before his Maker&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and said, “Master of the Universe, the woman you gave me fled from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; me!”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another from Zohar says that she was not Adam's first wife or just a concubine and she became over jealous when Eve was created.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; After the primeval light was hidden, a husk was created for the brain,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and that husk spread out and brought forth another husk which was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lilith. And when she emerged, she went up and went down towards the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; little faces, and wanted to attach herself to them and be shaped after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; them, and did not want to depart from them. But the Holy One, blessed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; be He, removed her from there and placed her down below.    When He&#xD;&#xA;&gt; created Adam, in order to perfect this world, as soon as Lilith saw&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eve affixed to the side of Adam, and saw in them the beauty of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Above, and saw their perfect image, she flew off from there and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wanted, as before to attach herself to the little faces.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The tradition also usually makes her the snake that charmed Eve coiled around the tree of Life (cf. Lilith in Sumer's myth stealing Inana's tree).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lilith in Demonology&#xD;&#xA;--------------------&#xD;&#xA;Demonology also know Lilith as one of the 4 queens of Hell with Na'amah, Agrat Ba'at Malhat and Eischeth Zemium. Consider her as a wife/Consort of the ruler of Hell" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7986" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1959" RevisionGUID="b58d8f30-bf97-4f56-8a8e-092a8a7bc108" CreationDate="2016-09-05T10:10:21.660" UserId="2939" Text="This was found in a grave of a knight in Romania and i am wondering what the symbol of the swan with a woman head could symbolize. &#xD;&#xA;The grave has a templar cross at the feet of the knight, the star of David at the head and on the top the tree of life, a 12 pointed star with a solar symbol in middle. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;Top part of the grave: &#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/BcOaM.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/IAig3.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7987" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1959" RevisionGUID="b58d8f30-bf97-4f56-8a8e-092a8a7bc108" CreationDate="2016-09-05T10:10:21.660" UserId="2939" Text="Is there a legend or an explanation for the symbol of a swan with a woman head?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7988" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1959" RevisionGUID="b58d8f30-bf97-4f56-8a8e-092a8a7bc108" CreationDate="2016-09-05T10:10:21.660" UserId="2939" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7989" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1959" RevisionGUID="f0a77fc3-7c62-403b-bd97-dea1b62ecefd" CreationDate="2016-09-05T10:18:19.983" UserId="57" Comment="added 8 characters in body; edited title" Text="This was found in a grave of a knight in Romania and I am wondering what the symbol of the swan with a woman's head could symbolize. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The grave has a templar cross at the feet of the knight, the star of David at the head and on the top the tree of life, a 12 pointed star with a solar symbol in middle. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Top part of the grave: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/BcOaM.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/IAig3.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7990" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1959" RevisionGUID="f0a77fc3-7c62-403b-bd97-dea1b62ecefd" CreationDate="2016-09-05T10:18:19.983" UserId="57" Comment="added 8 characters in body; edited title" Text="Is there a legend or an explanation for the symbol of a swan with a woman's head?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7991" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1959" RevisionGUID="4b8d873c-4c7c-4ad3-bd71-472a2483c497" CreationDate="2016-09-05T10:28:18.857" UserId="2939" Comment="added 908 characters in body" Text="This was found in a grave of a knight in Romania and I am wondering what the symbol of the swan with a woman's head could symbolize. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The grave has a templar cross at the feet of the knight, the star of David at the head and on the top the tree of life, a 12 pointed star with a solar symbol in middle. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Top part of the grave: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is the grave with the knight in it.&#xD;&#xA;The historians think it is the son of Basarab I, the knight is known under the name of the black knight of Wallachia. &#xD;&#xA;Wallachia was founded as a principality in the early 14th century by Basarab I, after a rebellion against Charles I of Hungary, although the first mention of the territory of Wallachia west of the river Olt dates to a charter given to the voivode Seneslau in 1246 by Béla IV of Hungary. &#xD;&#xA;In 1859, Wallachia united with Moldavia to form the United Principalities, which adopted the name Romania in 1866 and officially became the Kingdom of Romania in 1881.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Carbon 14 tests and DNA tests &quot;tell&quot; the man buried at Curtea de Arges had died between the years 1340-1350. That his mother had german or nord-indian origins, not cumans how some historians tend to say. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/BcOaM.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/IAig3.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/623UR.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7992" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1960" RevisionGUID="598d6f49-ad47-48e8-8024-250b15b8838b" CreationDate="2016-09-05T11:07:51.767" UserId="1177" Text="In this classical depiction they are simply women with wings:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://www.theoi.com/Gallery/P20.1.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7993" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1960" RevisionGUID="403ba226-e995-41f1-9e61-2a72613280c3" CreationDate="2016-09-05T11:16:11.543" UserId="1177" Comment="added 58 characters in body" Text="In this classical depiction they are simply women with wings:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://www.theoi.com/Gallery/P20.1.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Actually, rather like angels in Christian iconography.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7995" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1958" RevisionGUID="204b60ad-6e68-4d33-b50c-686e2c50e908" CreationDate="2016-09-05T12:44:21.947" UserId="2774" Comment="added 242 characters in body" Text="Lilith in Mesopotamy&#xD;&#xA;--------------------&#xD;&#xA;First Lilith (Lilitu) is of Mesopotamian origin. She is a female &quot;demon&quot;/&quot;succubus&quot; (Consider I use here modern terms, Sumerian got no clue what those was). We find her in diverse stories most notable one is when she is coming to haunt Inanna's tree in Inanna and the Hullupu tree (We don't know what an Huluppu tree is).&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The years passed; five years, and then ten years.&lt;BR&gt; The tree grew thick,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But its bark did not split.&lt;BR&gt; Then the serpent who could not be charmed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Made it's nest in the roots of the huluppu-tree.&lt;BR&gt; The Anzu-bird set its&#xD;&#xA;&gt; young in the branches of the tree.&lt;BR&gt; And the dark maid Lilith built her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; home in the trunk.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note you find various versions and translations, but the idea is always the same. Lilith is vanquished by Gilgamesh there.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;She is related with death of new born children and such bad things.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lilith in the Holy Bible&#xD;&#xA;------------------------&#xD;&#xA;First there is not even one track of Lilith, per se, in the Holy bible. The one of the Christians. That said the Hebraic version will clarify what the Bible says: &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; creatures that move along the ground.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 27 So God created mankind in his own image,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    in the image of God he created them;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    male and female he created them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is a well known thing that here men and women are created from clay at the same time. BUT here woman is created AFTER from a man's rib:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But for Adam[f] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the Lord God&#xD;&#xA;&gt; caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he took one of the man’s ribs[g] and then closed up the place with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib[h] he had taken&#xD;&#xA;&gt; out of the man, and he brought her to the man.&#xD;&#xA;That is the version most people know. But the Bible is still quite unclear if only Eve was a part of a rib or all the females.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lilith for the Hebrews&#xD;&#xA;----------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the Hebraic books, Adam got a first wife, precisely Lilith (sometimes named Adamah), modeled out of clay. And they divorced. There is several traditions according the reason of their separation. The most renowned (but well truly a joke) is that she wanted to be equal with Adam during sex. Which was not his taste, hence she was expelled from Paradise. This is from the Alpha Beta. (This is THE tradition you find everywhere.) Just here, The Alpha Beta (or Alphabet) 78 (Note this work is renown for being a gigantic satyre):&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When God created the first man Adam alone, God said, “It is not good&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for man to be alone.” [So] God created a woman for him, from the earth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; like him, and called her Lilith. They [Adam and Lilith] promptly began&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to argue with each other: She said, “I will not lie below,” and he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; said, “I will not lie below, but above, since you are fit for being&#xD;&#xA;&gt; below and I for being above.” She said to him, “The two of us are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; equal, since we are both from the earth.” And they would not listen to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; each other. Since Lilith saw [how it was], she uttered God's ineffable&#xD;&#xA;&gt; name and flew away into the air. Adam stood in prayer before his Maker&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and said, “Master of the Universe, the woman you gave me fled from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; me!”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another from Zohar says that she was not Adam's first wife or just a concubine and she became over jealous when Eve was created.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; After the primeval light was hidden, a husk was created for the brain,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and that husk spread out and brought forth another husk which was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lilith. And when she emerged, she went up and went down towards the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; little faces, and wanted to attach herself to them and be shaped after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; them, and did not want to depart from them. But the Holy One, blessed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; be He, removed her from there and placed her down below.    When He&#xD;&#xA;&gt; created Adam, in order to perfect this world, as soon as Lilith saw&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eve affixed to the side of Adam, and saw in them the beauty of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Above, and saw their perfect image, she flew off from there and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wanted, as before to attach herself to the little faces.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The tradition also usually makes her the snake that charmed Eve coiled around the tree of Life (cf. Lilith in Sumer's myth stealing Inanna's tree).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lilith in Demonology&#xD;&#xA;--------------------&#xD;&#xA;Demonology also know Lilith as one of the 4 queens of Hell with Na'amah, Agrat Ba'at Malhat and Eischeth Zemium. Consider her as a wife/Consort of the ruler of Hell.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The ruler can be Samaël, Asmodeus, Belzebub, etc. And sometimes you see Lilith the Old as Samaël's devoted wife, when you find a Lilith the Young in love with Asmodeus." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7996" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1958" RevisionGUID="3c60460b-5299-4fe2-ba59-0de7e0409317" CreationDate="2016-09-05T14:32:09.777" UserId="2708" Comment="Fixed formatting" Text="Lilith in Mesopotamy&#xD;&#xA;--------------------&#xD;&#xA;First Lilith (Lilitu) is of Mesopotamian origin. She is a female &quot;demon&quot;/&quot;succubus&quot; (Consider I use here modern terms, Sumerian got no clue what those was). We find her in diverse stories most notable one is when she is coming to haunt Inanna's tree in Inanna and the Hullupu tree (We don't know what an Huluppu tree is).&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The years passed; five years, and then ten years.&lt;BR&gt; The tree grew thick,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But its bark did not split.&lt;BR&gt; Then the serpent who could not be charmed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Made it's nest in the roots of the huluppu-tree.&lt;BR&gt; The Anzu-bird set its&#xD;&#xA;&gt; young in the branches of the tree.&lt;BR&gt; And the dark maid Lilith built her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; home in the trunk.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note you find various versions and translations, but the idea is always the same. Lilith is vanquished by Gilgamesh there.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;She is related with death of new born children and such bad things.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lilith in the Holy Bible&#xD;&#xA;------------------------&#xD;&#xA;First there is not even one track of Lilith, per se, in the Holy bible. The one of the Christians. That said the Hebraic version will clarify what the Bible says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; creatures that move along the ground.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 27 So God created mankind in his own image,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    in the image of God he created them;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    male and female he created them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is a well known thing that here men and women are created from clay at the same time. BUT here woman is created AFTER from a man's rib:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But for Adam[f] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the Lord God&#xD;&#xA;&gt; caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he took one of the man’s ribs[g] and then closed up the place with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib[h] he had taken&#xD;&#xA;&gt; out of the man, and he brought her to the man.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That is the version most people know. But the Bible is still quite unclear if only Eve was a part of a rib or all the females.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lilith for the Hebrews&#xD;&#xA;----------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the Hebraic books, Adam got a first wife, precisely Lilith (sometimes named Adamah), modeled out of clay. And they divorced. There is several traditions according the reason of their separation. The most renowned (but well truly a joke) is that she wanted to be equal with Adam during sex. Which was not his taste, hence she was expelled from Paradise. This is from the Alpha Beta. (This is THE tradition you find everywhere.) Just here, The Alpha Beta (or Alphabet) 78 (Note this work is renown for being a gigantic satyre):&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When God created the first man Adam alone, God said, “It is not good&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for man to be alone.” [So] God created a woman for him, from the earth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; like him, and called her Lilith. They [Adam and Lilith] promptly began&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to argue with each other: She said, “I will not lie below,” and he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; said, “I will not lie below, but above, since you are fit for being&#xD;&#xA;&gt; below and I for being above.” She said to him, “The two of us are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; equal, since we are both from the earth.” And they would not listen to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; each other. Since Lilith saw [how it was], she uttered God's ineffable&#xD;&#xA;&gt; name and flew away into the air. Adam stood in prayer before his Maker&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and said, “Master of the Universe, the woman you gave me fled from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; me!”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another from Zohar says that she was not Adam's first wife or just a concubine and she became over jealous when Eve was created.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; After the primeval light was hidden, a husk was created for the brain,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and that husk spread out and brought forth another husk which was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lilith. And when she emerged, she went up and went down towards the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; little faces, and wanted to attach herself to them and be shaped after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; them, and did not want to depart from them. But the Holy One, blessed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; be He, removed her from there and placed her down below.    When He&#xD;&#xA;&gt; created Adam, in order to perfect this world, as soon as Lilith saw&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eve affixed to the side of Adam, and saw in them the beauty of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Above, and saw their perfect image, she flew off from there and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wanted, as before to attach herself to the little faces.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The tradition also usually makes her the snake that charmed Eve coiled around the tree of Life (cf. Lilith in Sumer's myth stealing Inanna's tree).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lilith in Demonology&#xD;&#xA;--------------------&#xD;&#xA;Demonology also know Lilith as one of the 4 queens of Hell with Na'amah, Agrat Ba'at Malhat and Eischeth Zemium. Consider her as a wife/Consort of the ruler of Hell.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ruler can be Samaël, Asmodeus, Belzebub, etc. And sometimes you see Lilith the Old as Samaël's devoted wife, when you find a Lilith the Young in love with Asmodeus." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7997" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1958" RevisionGUID="3c60460b-5299-4fe2-ba59-0de7e0409317" CreationDate="2016-09-05T14:32:09.777" Comment="Proposed by 2708 approved by 62, 2774 edit id of 363" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7998" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1957" RevisionGUID="10a23a56-b036-4ae4-b147-e4a64ae5ab88" CreationDate="2016-09-05T15:30:29.887" UserId="1241" Comment="Added one tag." Text="|christianity|bible|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="7999" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1957" RevisionGUID="10a23a56-b036-4ae4-b147-e4a64ae5ab88" CreationDate="2016-09-05T15:30:29.887" Comment="Proposed by 1241 approved by 967 edit id of 364" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8000" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1962" RevisionGUID="6e417862-4114-44d2-b3e8-c8b22a7bffd9" CreationDate="2016-09-06T12:07:06.837" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Orishas are the deities that form the Yoruban pantheon.Their ruler is Olorun.However,while I was reading up on them,I was unable to find out about how the Orishas were created.How were these gods born?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8001" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1962" RevisionGUID="6e417862-4114-44d2-b3e8-c8b22a7bffd9" CreationDate="2016-09-06T12:07:06.837" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="How were the Orishas born?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8002" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1962" RevisionGUID="6e417862-4114-44d2-b3e8-c8b22a7bffd9" CreationDate="2016-09-06T12:07:06.837" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="|gods|africa|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8003" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1963" RevisionGUID="a0625917-73f9-4754-881d-45433580f136" CreationDate="2016-09-06T12:17:45.083" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Odudua is the Orisha(Yoruban deity) of Earth.She is said to be the personification of Earth and is the sister of Olorun,the god of the sky and ruler of the Orishas.However,his son, Oduduwa,is said to be the Orisha who created the Earth.If Odudua is the sister of Olurun,how could she have been created by her nephew, Oduduwa?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8004" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1963" RevisionGUID="a0625917-73f9-4754-881d-45433580f136" CreationDate="2016-09-06T12:17:45.083" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="How is Odudua the Orisha of Earth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8005" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1963" RevisionGUID="a0625917-73f9-4754-881d-45433580f136" CreationDate="2016-09-06T12:17:45.083" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="|gods|africa|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8006" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="457" RevisionGUID="4054e05a-2041-45b3-aa89-85d309605bbb" CreationDate="2016-09-06T13:47:20.750" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="feel like this description is more elegant" Text="For questions that compare mythology or folklore from multiple cultures." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8007" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="457" RevisionGUID="4054e05a-2041-45b3-aa89-85d309605bbb" CreationDate="2016-09-06T13:47:20.750" Comment="Proposed by 62 approved by 967, 111 edit id of 362" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8013" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1963" RevisionGUID="9e2b03cc-92bd-469f-b5e0-e5b107bec0b3" CreationDate="2016-09-06T15:01:45.897" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|africa|yoruba|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8014" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1962" RevisionGUID="78a8332b-d74e-46af-9600-c11fd351558d" CreationDate="2016-09-06T15:02:02.037" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|africa|yoruba|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8015" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1941" RevisionGUID="b986ef98-347f-4fd7-b8b7-4c7393aa0ce5" CreationDate="2016-09-06T15:03:26.143" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|japanese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8016" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1899" RevisionGUID="782e5e85-3a13-4f21-b948-f30670049bb9" CreationDate="2016-09-06T15:03:29.753" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8017" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1844" RevisionGUID="493250fe-eb9f-440a-9bfa-5c36ce6a6b9b" CreationDate="2016-09-06T15:03:44.357" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|hindu|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8018" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1836" RevisionGUID="312e8760-a3f9-42da-a8e5-18a63a4dff78" CreationDate="2016-09-06T15:03:49.390" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|celtic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8019" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="239" RevisionGUID="14fecf93-bdd6-44b3-9e85-6d5c82a5ad55" CreationDate="2016-09-06T15:12:04.150" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|roman|pantheon|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8020" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1488" RevisionGUID="f63811d7-d7e4-41c4-b80d-2ed8998534cd" CreationDate="2016-09-06T15:12:12.437" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|folklore|japanese|mythohistory|pantheon|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8021" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="237" RevisionGUID="8da91426-dab0-48c1-bd70-b7db0e1c5b38" CreationDate="2016-09-06T15:12:18.170" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mesopotamia|anunnaki|pantheon|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8022" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1615" RevisionGUID="19bdc219-ce7b-4570-9c4c-f28d68bcefc1" CreationDate="2016-09-06T15:12:29.947" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|comparative|history|zeus|pantheon|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8023" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="1401" RevisionGUID="40a415b3-7779-40b7-852c-34f24f68ce62" CreationDate="2016-09-06T15:19:39.020" UserId="57" Comment="29" />
  <row Id="8025" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1965" RevisionGUID="1e7f486d-79e1-4cb6-8694-ac99e3036073" CreationDate="2016-09-06T18:33:17.270" UserId="183" Text="I was reading [*The Story of Myrddin Wyllt*](http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/myrddin.html) (which appears to be another name for *Merlin and the Five Dreams of Gwenddydd*), written by [Elis Gruffydd](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elis_Gruffydd). It concerns Myrddin Wyllt, who is identified with Merlin by later authors. What's curious is that it mentions Myrddin's father, a human, while many other tales claim that *Merlin*'s father was an incubus:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to the narrative of some authors there was about this time within one which is called Nanconwy a man who was called Morfryn. But others show this was Morfryn Frych, prince of Gwynedd, - which he could not be according to the tenor of his songs. Nevertheless the writing shows that a man of this name had a son who was called Mryddin son of Morfryn (. . .)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second sentence puzzles me:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which he could not be according to the tenor of his songs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I haven't been able to find any other good versions of Gruffydd's narrative, so I don't have anything to compare this wording to. What does &quot;the tenor of his songs&quot; mean? What is Gruffydd trying to say about Myrddin's human father?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8026" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1965" RevisionGUID="1e7f486d-79e1-4cb6-8694-ac99e3036073" CreationDate="2016-09-06T18:33:17.270" UserId="183" Text="What does Elis Gruffydd mean by &quot;the tenor of his songs&quot;? What does this mean about Myrddin's father?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8027" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1965" RevisionGUID="1e7f486d-79e1-4cb6-8694-ac99e3036073" CreationDate="2016-09-06T18:33:17.270" UserId="183" Text="|welsh|merlin|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8028" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1966" RevisionGUID="ddbf5a39-28a5-46fc-95f5-d660437c3154" CreationDate="2016-09-06T19:12:55.010" UserId="2964" Text="&quot;...which he could not be according to the tenor of his songs&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The name &quot;Merlin&quot; is derived from the Welsh &quot;Myrddin&quot;, the name of the **bard** Myrddin Wyllt, one of the chief sources for the later legendary figure.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The word Tenor is not referring to the pitch of a male singer's voice, it's more of another definition &quot;a settled or prevailing or habitual course of a person's life&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the meaning of bard; a professional story teller, verse-maker and music composer, so when he talks about the &quot;tenor of his songs&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what he's saying is that Morfryn Frych, prince of Gwynedd, cannot be Merlin's (Myrddin Wyllt) father because the bard's songs (Myrddin) do not depict his father in likeness to Morfryn." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8029" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1562" RevisionGUID="2044587f-9e0b-4b4f-b00b-907224aaaaed" CreationDate="2016-09-07T06:23:29.860" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8030" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1270" RevisionGUID="bdc3b7c1-9c61-4732-ad90-f3afce1adc0c" CreationDate="2016-09-07T06:23:42.817" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|comparative|mythohistory|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8031" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="227" RevisionGUID="f3937512-9888-4cc7-ab3b-1477cd10884c" CreationDate="2016-09-07T06:24:11.777" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|athena|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8032" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="194" RevisionGUID="de888714-bde9-4d98-9c13-d23b2afcfec9" CreationDate="2016-09-07T06:25:13.520" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|giants|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8033" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3" RevisionGUID="c66c6f18-b601-47cc-9790-5aa362119594" CreationDate="2016-09-07T06:25:40.767" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|teutonic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8038" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1963" RevisionGUID="f1e1fdc6-71c1-425a-a4ac-eb18f646ed91" CreationDate="2016-09-07T13:22:46.387" UserId="967" Comment="added 7 characters in body; edited tags" Text="Odudua is the Orisha (Yoruban deity) of Earth. She is said to be the personification of Earth and is the sister of Olorun, the god of the sky and ruler of the Orishas. However, his son, Oduduwa,is said to be the Orisha who created the Earth. If Odudua is the sister of Olurun, how could she have been created by her nephew, Oduduwa?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8039" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1963" RevisionGUID="f1e1fdc6-71c1-425a-a4ac-eb18f646ed91" CreationDate="2016-09-07T13:22:46.387" UserId="967" Comment="added 7 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|africa|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8040" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1962" RevisionGUID="a498fa3e-7b86-47d1-80d8-cf5e96d95215" CreationDate="2016-09-07T13:23:37.193" UserId="967" Comment="added 5 characters in body; edited tags" Text="Orishas are the deities that form the Yoruban pantheon. Their ruler is Olorun. However, while I was reading up on them, I was unable to find out about how the Orishas were created. How were these gods born?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8041" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1962" RevisionGUID="a498fa3e-7b86-47d1-80d8-cf5e96d95215" CreationDate="2016-09-07T13:23:37.193" UserId="967" Comment="added 5 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|africa|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8042" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1967" RevisionGUID="868f0106-c718-4495-8cf4-772abd5705f3" CreationDate="2016-09-07T13:59:51.540" UserId="2965" Text="Nymphs are associated with nature, and nature is expansive. This [Source][1] has a list near the bottom of Nymphs, their names, and their classification by dwelling. Classification tends to overlap and it's not always clear.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Obviously with any Mythology there are uncertainties, Nymphs fortunately are one of the easier of the uncertainties. Because they are associated with nature there are the broad categories that they can fit in like Celestial, Land, Wood, etc. which makes listing them a bit easier.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nymph" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8043" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="1401" RevisionGUID="a18d7b2d-d3a2-4d7f-bd09-c8e21bfe9834" CreationDate="2016-09-07T16:04:29.933" UserId="57" Comment="29" />
  <row Id="8044" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1968" RevisionGUID="7c5d90ae-414c-4b61-9f29-431a0edaf9a4" CreationDate="2016-09-07T20:18:40.960" UserId="57" Text="[Princess Argyro][1] is the legendary founder of [Gjirokastër][2], in Albanian and Greek folklore. According to Nikolaos Politis&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;, in Greek tales she is sometimes referred to as &quot;Μονοβύζα&quot;, the single-breasted.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a story that explains how Argyro lost her breast? Is there a connection to the legend that had the Amazons burn or cut the children's right breasts?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lastly, is Argyro ever called single-breasted in stories of Albanian origin?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; &quot;Μελέται περί του βίου και της γλώσσης του ελληνικού λαού: Παραδόσεις&quot;, Νικόλαος Πολίτης, 1899.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Argjiro&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gjirokast%C3%ABr" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8045" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1968" RevisionGUID="7c5d90ae-414c-4b61-9f29-431a0edaf9a4" CreationDate="2016-09-07T20:18:40.960" UserId="57" Text="How did Princess Argyro lose her breast?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8046" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1968" RevisionGUID="7c5d90ae-414c-4b61-9f29-431a0edaf9a4" CreationDate="2016-09-07T20:18:40.960" UserId="57" Text="|greek|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8047" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1916" RevisionGUID="8c752327-b3ce-4d2e-bb0d-392d3a32e236" CreationDate="2016-09-07T20:19:58.663" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="I don't think this interpretation makes sense. For one thing, there are plenty of &quot;colonization&quot; stories where people go on ocean voyages. I can't think of a single instance where land is described as &quot;drowning&quot; as people move away from the coastline.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The old world is destroyed by leaving it, the new world is populated by the maritime explorers. The &quot;old world&quot; an increasingly unpleasant place due to overpopulation etc. is a very good reason to leave it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You're essentially describing the biblical story of Noah. There are lots of other flood stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I searched for it&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;take a look at the book *The Flood Myth* by Alan Dundes. It's a collection of academic essays on flood stories from around the world. I think you will find it helpful and interesting. (I've never read it but I've heard good things about it, and I'm a fan of the author.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; My sense has always been that back in prehistory there was a single ginormous flood event that was so massive it imprinted itself on every surviving human culture, and was written into many mythologies&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are more plausible explanations for the prevalence of certain motifs across cultures." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8048" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1962" RevisionGUID="2230147b-b67c-4ae4-84f0-fd92c62f96a3" CreationDate="2016-09-07T20:23:20.097" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|africa|yoruba|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8049" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1963" RevisionGUID="47ca236f-926a-47e0-80ad-3cd65d74e789" CreationDate="2016-09-07T20:23:28.170" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|africa|yoruba|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8051" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1968" RevisionGUID="a5b9d9fa-6771-4521-8449-d33e987dbae6" CreationDate="2016-09-07T20:26:04.350" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 4 characters in body" Text="[Princess Argyro][1] is the legendary founder of [Gjirokastër][2], in Albanian and Greek folklore. According to Nikolaos Politis&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;, in Greek tales she is sometimes referred to as &quot;Μονοβύζα&quot;, the single-breasted.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a story that explains how Argyro lost her breast? Could there be connection to the legend that had the Amazons burn or cut their right breasts?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lastly, is Argyro ever called single-breasted in stories of Albanian origin?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; &quot;Μελέται περί του βίου και της γλώσσης του ελληνικού λαού: Παραδόσεις&quot;, Νικόλαος Πολίτης, 1899.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Argjiro&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gjirokast%C3%ABr" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8052" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="108" RevisionGUID="db88bf26-c08c-48be-9283-64eaf1b9b5ba" CreationDate="2016-09-07T20:29:10.337" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|weapons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8053" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="154" RevisionGUID="3fa59f58-7d15-40cf-b001-83229d4dad30" CreationDate="2016-09-07T20:29:17.553" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|weapons|thor|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8054" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="414" RevisionGUID="d0fa9566-6ab9-414a-8b21-dd5d4d75e5dd" CreationDate="2016-09-07T20:29:58.277" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|athena|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8055" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1544" RevisionGUID="da3c90f8-e562-46ae-a83c-b3cc69c3d078" CreationDate="2016-09-07T20:30:39.947" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|monsters|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8056" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1544" RevisionGUID="29e85ca2-e7a2-410d-b7cb-b1ccaed9876d" CreationDate="2016-09-07T20:47:39.270" UserId="2892" Comment="Corrected Latinized spelling of Σκύλλα" Text="Charybdis, and its counterpart Skyla were two monsters in the Odyssey. However, according to Ovid's *Metamorphoses*, Scylla was once a nymph.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;... had she not been transformed before they came into a reef whose rocks rise up today, and sailors shun her still and steer away.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was Charybdis too once something else? And what did Charybdis do before Scylla?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8057" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1544" RevisionGUID="29e85ca2-e7a2-410d-b7cb-b1ccaed9876d" CreationDate="2016-09-07T20:47:39.270" Comment="Proposed by 2892 approved by 57 edit id of 366" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8058" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1966" RevisionGUID="c343d89f-0887-4865-8a84-5f0c210a1420" CreationDate="2016-09-07T21:06:31.243" UserId="2965" Comment="I forgot to finish a sentence." Text="&quot;...which he could not be according to the tenor of his songs&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The name &quot;Merlin&quot; is derived from the Welsh &quot;Myrddin&quot;, the name of the **bard** Myrddin Wyllt, one of the chief sources for the later legendary figure.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The word Tenor is not referring to the pitch of a male singer's voice, it's more of another definition &quot;a settled or prevailing or habitual course of a person's life&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the meaning of bard; a professional story teller, verse-maker and music composer, so when he talks about the &quot;tenor of his songs&quot; he's talking about the life of whom he's singing, in this case would be his father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what he's saying is that Morfryn Frych, prince of Gwynedd, cannot be Merlin's (Myrddin Wyllt) father because the bard's songs (Myrddin) do not depict his father in likeness to Morfryn." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8059" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1966" RevisionGUID="c343d89f-0887-4865-8a84-5f0c210a1420" CreationDate="2016-09-07T21:06:31.243" Comment="Proposed by 2965 approved by 967, 57 edit id of 365" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8060" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1375" RevisionGUID="f91ddae1-c8db-4bb5-8579-659b015303c6" CreationDate="2016-09-07T21:23:37.770" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|folklore|africa|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8061" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1969" RevisionGUID="7c6361bb-7820-4e47-979a-689102f322ef" CreationDate="2016-09-08T00:34:13.690" UserId="2970" Text="I am wondering about one thing: What is the fate of Norns and their web during the Ragnarök?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8062" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1969" RevisionGUID="7c6361bb-7820-4e47-979a-689102f322ef" CreationDate="2016-09-08T00:34:13.690" UserId="2970" Text="Fate of Norns and their web" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8063" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1969" RevisionGUID="7c6361bb-7820-4e47-979a-689102f322ef" CreationDate="2016-09-08T00:34:13.690" UserId="2970" Text="|norse|ragnarok|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8064" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1970" RevisionGUID="d8902cb5-ee2d-4d48-84a5-5773d3eebf0f" CreationDate="2016-09-08T06:18:37.940" UserId="666" Text="Unknown. Our main sources for Ragnarök are the [Völuspá][1], the [Vafþrúðnismál][2], and what Snorri retells of these. The Norns are introduced in verses 19-20 of Völuspá, but that is before Ragnarök starts, and they are not mentioned again. They don't seem to be mentioned at all in Vafþrúðnismál. Snorri does not provide more information.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At a guess? Since we know that some gods and goddesses, as well as some forces of evil, are going to survive Ragnarök, it would be reasonable to suppose that the Norns will as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe03.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaf%C3%BEr%C3%BA%C3%B0nism%C3%A1l" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8065" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1846" RevisionGUID="13748966-ab48-49fb-a31f-772b66a7164b" CreationDate="2016-09-08T07:28:28.763" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|resurrection|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8066" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1801" RevisionGUID="374a7024-2704-40f8-a374-9ac47b6f0e30" CreationDate="2016-09-08T07:30:11.927" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|japanese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8067" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1800" RevisionGUID="683730ff-8f57-4463-bd8e-b93ec181295c" CreationDate="2016-09-08T07:30:20.367" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8068" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1954" RevisionGUID="e8b224bb-da2e-4d69-8586-7c42dcaf57ac" CreationDate="2016-09-08T08:19:22.520" UserId="1455" Comment="Improved structure for clarity." Text="Many years ago (the mid-1980s) someone described to me a belief that a burial ground was guarded by the spirit of the most recently interred body. For this reason, when one was being 'retired' it was traditional to bury a dog or cat there so that the spirit that got stuck guarding it for eternity was not a human one. In the time since I have occasionally attempted to identify the origin of this belief but I can't find it anywhere. Can anyone confirm this belief and if so identify where and when it appeared and whether it is still in place anywhere?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the time I assumed this was a belief from England (where I heard it), but it might have been from other parts of the UK or Europe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It wasn't clear from the description whether this belief was specific to graveyards, to burial grounds without a church, or to both." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8069" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1971" RevisionGUID="d2bc0650-0912-431f-b6db-9e59d0c5f307" CreationDate="2016-09-08T08:49:50.373" UserId="57" Text="According to Wikipedia, different oral traditions refer to different numbers of orishas: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Yoruba tradition often says that there are 401 orishas, which is associated with a sacred number. Other sources suggest that the number is &quot;as many as you can think of, plus one more - an innumerable number&quot;. Different oral traditions refer to 400, 700, or 1,440 orisha.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Orisha&amp;oldid=737260447#Number](https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Orisha&amp;oldid=737260447#Number)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is 401 sacred to the Yoruba? What is the significance of the other numbers?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8070" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1971" RevisionGUID="d2bc0650-0912-431f-b6db-9e59d0c5f307" CreationDate="2016-09-08T08:49:50.373" UserId="57" Text="What is the significance of the number of orishas?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8071" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1971" RevisionGUID="d2bc0650-0912-431f-b6db-9e59d0c5f307" CreationDate="2016-09-08T08:49:50.373" UserId="57" Text="|africa|yoruba|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8072" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1954" RevisionGUID="99ec40e6-b406-485e-a70d-2a2c9061fe68" CreationDate="2016-09-08T12:59:50.503" UserId="1455" Comment="added 'christianity' tag" Text="Many years ago (the mid-1980s) someone described to me a belief that a Christian burial ground was guarded by the spirit of the most recently interred body. For this reason, when a burial ground was being 'retired' it was traditional to bury a dog or cat there so that the spirit that got stuck guarding it for eternity was not a human one. In the time since I have occasionally attempted to identify the origin of this belief but I can't find it anywhere. Can anyone confirm this belief and if so identify where and when it appeared and whether it is still in place anywhere?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the time I assumed this was a belief from England (where I heard it), but it might have been from other parts of the UK or Europe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It wasn't clear from the description whether this belief was specific to graveyards, to burial grounds without a church, or to both." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8073" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1954" RevisionGUID="99ec40e6-b406-485e-a70d-2a2c9061fe68" CreationDate="2016-09-08T12:59:50.503" UserId="1455" Comment="added 'christianity' tag" Text="|myth-identification|christianity|superstition|afterlife|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8074" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1835" RevisionGUID="950d06a7-eb66-4793-b715-1b5c47b5f14a" CreationDate="2016-09-08T14:24:14.543" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|sumerian|gilgamesh|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8075" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1781" RevisionGUID="a1e04030-57cb-4c3a-ba8e-5440cbb6c5d6" CreationDate="2016-09-08T14:24:37.647" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|symbolism+|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8076" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1438" RevisionGUID="a16c20a4-8978-4501-b1ba-83d30ae2d81f" CreationDate="2016-09-08T14:26:43.087" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="deleted 1 character in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Hermes was a messenger god. And Iris, with her rainbows, was also a messenger goddess.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why would the Greeks have two different messenger gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8077" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1438" RevisionGUID="a16c20a4-8978-4501-b1ba-83d30ae2d81f" CreationDate="2016-09-08T14:26:43.087" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="deleted 1 character in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Why do the Greeks have two different messenger gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8078" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1438" RevisionGUID="a16c20a4-8978-4501-b1ba-83d30ae2d81f" CreationDate="2016-09-08T14:26:43.087" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="deleted 1 character in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8079" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1219" RevisionGUID="04d9c19d-c14b-4545-a173-0fac7c6a722a" CreationDate="2016-09-08T14:28:32.917" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|comparative|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8080" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="853" RevisionGUID="cbd64006-84be-4f7d-8a7f-cdef51cd6dd6" CreationDate="2016-09-08T14:29:08.207" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8081" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1622" RevisionGUID="b42db0ec-b632-4bb4-9b85-39c251f1ccc1" CreationDate="2016-09-08T15:57:41.327" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8082" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1450" RevisionGUID="ac7e91ae-1142-4932-afdf-72cedd0be79e" CreationDate="2016-09-08T15:58:20.093" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|roman|christianity|history|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8083" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="311" RevisionGUID="ca003df8-c88c-447e-8fbf-71de1a3bf9b9" CreationDate="2016-09-08T15:59:16.490" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|comparative|sumerian|anunnaki|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8084" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="242" RevisionGUID="89671555-ecdc-470c-842d-a550ee79e4d3" CreationDate="2016-09-08T15:59:31.177" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|zeus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8085" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="206" RevisionGUID="49843ca0-1a88-4bcc-97a5-3cecd05e4675" CreationDate="2016-09-08T16:00:06.047" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|sumerian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8086" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1173" RevisionGUID="ebacbfd4-5ab7-4246-9ebd-b5347dd1e260" CreationDate="2016-09-08T16:03:42.903" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|comparative|numerology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8087" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="53" RevisionGUID="98166a97-854d-46cc-9f89-9e26cd0deb2d" CreationDate="2016-09-08T16:04:32.037" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8088" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1834" RevisionGUID="3ddcfb74-6aa8-4092-8a93-63b071fccf15" CreationDate="2016-09-08T16:05:37.837" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="cleaning up the gods tag" Text="I am currently very interested in Sumerian mythology and would like to find out more about it. However, I am finding it very hard to keep track of the gods lineage and parentage as well as their descendants.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To keep track of them I would like to have a family tree of them. Do you know where I can find a family tree of these gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8089" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1834" RevisionGUID="3ddcfb74-6aa8-4092-8a93-63b071fccf15" CreationDate="2016-09-08T16:05:37.837" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="cleaning up the gods tag" Text="|sumerian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8090" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1825" RevisionGUID="b27bc1e1-1312-4e67-ab6f-df14cc0e9fd9" CreationDate="2016-09-08T16:06:18.670" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 1 character in body; edited tags" Text="I have recently came across Tu'er Shen, a Chinese deity who manages the love and sex between homosexual men. After reading about him, I am interested to find out if there are any homosexual gods(exclude the Greco-Roman gods), preferably those who married another homosexual god. However, I am not looking for gods who are in charge of homosexual love, like the Chinese god mentioned above, but I am looking for gods who are naturally homosexual, like Zeus, who took Ganydeme, a boy, as a lover. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8091" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1825" RevisionGUID="b27bc1e1-1312-4e67-ab6f-df14cc0e9fd9" CreationDate="2016-09-08T16:06:18.670" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 1 character in body; edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8092" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1376" RevisionGUID="d36a0545-7078-4246-9a5a-10208b354f10" CreationDate="2016-09-08T16:08:58.823" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="propably should find a better phrase than &quot;chief deity&quot;" Text="Was Poseidon ever considered the chief deity instead of Zeus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8093" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1376" RevisionGUID="d36a0545-7078-4246-9a5a-10208b354f10" CreationDate="2016-09-08T16:08:58.823" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="propably should find a better phrase than &quot;chief deity&quot;" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8094" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1144" RevisionGUID="37c0b65a-6e77-4493-b6d9-b5da499d0a66" CreationDate="2016-09-08T16:09:41.190" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|india|vimana|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8095" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="412" RevisionGUID="694c939e-a307-424a-beef-5b72c3cbbf55" CreationDate="2016-09-08T16:20:42.077" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8096" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1767" RevisionGUID="c8d448af-5e53-4c48-b0f4-23ce01ffe0fc" CreationDate="2016-09-08T20:00:43.377" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|comparative|sumerian|anunnaki|bible|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8097" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1716" RevisionGUID="47999f8b-7d45-4dbd-b579-1435bb347067" CreationDate="2016-09-08T20:01:10.717" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8098" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1662" RevisionGUID="5a1a45b5-c964-43ea-b25f-7d14d1ca649e" CreationDate="2016-09-08T20:01:26.470" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|myth-identification|god-items|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8099" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1649" RevisionGUID="63fd060c-516b-42fb-8314-0d6b9c97031c" CreationDate="2016-09-08T20:01:49.323" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|immortality|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8100" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1498" RevisionGUID="7ba511d9-6d7c-499b-a7c0-4da92a2d4d0c" CreationDate="2016-09-08T20:02:08.967" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|norse|myth-identification|roman|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8101" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="197" RevisionGUID="7175ab08-5471-4b6a-9877-3cb6d9bcbb99" CreationDate="2016-09-08T20:02:22.783" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|god-items|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8102" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="244" RevisionGUID="94cf8c4c-d17f-473c-bf1e-4d300e916acc" CreationDate="2016-09-08T20:03:15.763" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|untagged|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8103" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1914" RevisionGUID="7f967e83-7252-4bb0-ae16-c2db999f1dae" CreationDate="2016-09-08T20:04:25.877" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 3 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="In most mythologies, there is often a male god who is the chief god, like Zeus of Greek mythology and Ra of Egyptian mythology. As far as I know, the only mythology that has a female ruler of the universe is Ameteratsu, the Sun goddess of the Shinto pantheon/Japanese mythology. Are there any other mythologies that have goddesses as the main deity as well?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8104" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1914" RevisionGUID="7f967e83-7252-4bb0-ae16-c2db999f1dae" CreationDate="2016-09-08T20:04:25.877" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 3 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Mythologies with goddesses as the main deity?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8105" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1914" RevisionGUID="7f967e83-7252-4bb0-ae16-c2db999f1dae" CreationDate="2016-09-08T20:04:25.877" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 3 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|myth-identification|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8106" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1912" RevisionGUID="a22fb3f0-6707-4401-813f-35df57fd9095" CreationDate="2016-09-08T20:04:41.183" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8107" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="205" RevisionGUID="98e4a167-e1db-45ab-9813-772314142409" CreationDate="2016-09-08T20:05:09.473" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="deleted 35 characters in body; edited tags" Text="The Anunnaki were a group of deities in ancient Mesopotamian culture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How many of them were there at the peak time (which we know about)?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example on [Wikipedia page][1] we can read:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the Epic of Creation, it is said that there are 300 lgigu of heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anunnaki#Mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8108" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="205" RevisionGUID="98e4a167-e1db-45ab-9813-772314142409" CreationDate="2016-09-08T20:05:09.473" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="deleted 35 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|mesopotamia|anunnaki|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8113" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="289" RevisionGUID="5d2e932b-d129-48d7-b1f4-304dff0b1122" CreationDate="2016-09-09T16:18:01.247" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="8114" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1973" RevisionGUID="7cbbacd5-3298-412a-9b17-ccad73d56757" CreationDate="2016-09-09T22:29:27.840" UserId="57" Text="I was reading up on the world tree motif, when I realized that apparently the concept is absent from Greek mythology:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Although the concept is absent from the Greek mythology, medieval Greek folk traditions and more recent folklore claim that the tree that holds the Earth is being sawed by Kallikantzaroi (commonly translated as goblins).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=World_tree&amp;oldid=728500832#Other_cultures&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is this true? Is such a widespread notion completely absent from Greek mythology?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_tree&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8115" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1973" RevisionGUID="7cbbacd5-3298-412a-9b17-ccad73d56757" CreationDate="2016-09-09T22:29:27.840" UserId="57" Text="Is there a world tree in Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8116" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1973" RevisionGUID="7cbbacd5-3298-412a-9b17-ccad73d56757" CreationDate="2016-09-09T22:29:27.840" UserId="57" Text="|greek|world-tree|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8117" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1974" RevisionGUID="4a2d1263-aacb-405b-adb2-9a7c28c89ad1" CreationDate="2016-09-09T22:29:27.840" UserId="57" Text="It's true that a world tree does not appear in mainstream Greek mythology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However the concept wasn't completely unknown to the Greeks. In fact, a world tree - and more specifically a winged oak - does appear in the few surviving fragments of the cosmogony of Pherecydes of Syros (the *Pentemuchos*):   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; On the third day of the wedding, Zas (Zeus) fashioned a big and beautiful robe, and on it he embroidered Earth and Ogenos (Oceanus) and the mansions of Ogenos. When he had finished his task, he presented the robe to Chthonie (Earth) and said: 'Because I wish to marry you, I honour you with this robe. Rejoice and be my consort!' This they say was the first feast of unveiling, and hence arose the custom for both gods and men. And she responded as she received the robe from him: 'I take this as my honour, and henceforth I shall be called Ge...' The gods celebrated, feasting on ambrosia. And the Earth was like a winged oak, strong and mighty; its roots extended into the depths of Tartaros, its trunk was encircled by Ogenos, and its branches reached into Ouranos. The Earth flourished and Zas rejoiced.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Pherekydes of Syros, by Hermann S. Schibli&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8118" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1975" RevisionGUID="3ccddc6c-10ef-434d-be40-4227c19dd914" CreationDate="2016-09-10T02:34:31.850" UserId="215" Text="I was trying to do some research of Geseriad (aka [Epic of King Gesar/Kesar][1]) details (for [this][2]), but while I found a couple of academic references, some even re-telling many parts of the epos, I wasn't able to find freely available text (in English telling or translation) of ANY version of Geseriad, Tibetian or Mongolian or Chinese.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there one that escaped my notice?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm fine if it's a very close re-telling, and not literal translation, e.g. like &quot;The Superhuman Life of Gesar of Ling&quot; By Alexandra David-Neel.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_King_Gesar&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/140147/in-universe-is-gesar-the-same-person-as-the-central-asian-folk-hero" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8119" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1975" RevisionGUID="3ccddc6c-10ef-434d-be40-4227c19dd914" CreationDate="2016-09-10T02:34:31.850" UserId="215" Text="Are there freely available texts of Geseriad in English?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8120" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1975" RevisionGUID="3ccddc6c-10ef-434d-be40-4227c19dd914" CreationDate="2016-09-10T02:34:31.850" UserId="215" Text="|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8123" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1976" RevisionGUID="ef6c25e9-d185-46d3-b0fa-71d971b9aff3" CreationDate="2016-09-11T01:52:54.490" UserDisplayName="user2973" Text="The enigma of the Bermuda triangle is a time old tale and it is often even called the Devil's triangle. There are tales of a sea monster living in that area, extraterrestrial actions, etc., happening in that region that cause ships and planes to disappear. Do the tales and myths surrounding the mysterious affects of the Bermuda Triangle have any validity? I have read that there are very erratic waves in that area and strong magnetic effects. But is it just these reasons that have given way to all these tales or is there a deeper scientific answer?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8124" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1976" RevisionGUID="ef6c25e9-d185-46d3-b0fa-71d971b9aff3" CreationDate="2016-09-11T01:52:54.490" UserDisplayName="user2973" Text="Myths of the Bermuda Triangle and its validity" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8125" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1976" RevisionGUID="ef6c25e9-d185-46d3-b0fa-71d971b9aff3" CreationDate="2016-09-11T01:52:54.490" UserDisplayName="user2973" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8126" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1977" RevisionGUID="e8c27471-abb7-456a-b079-6d009db22912" CreationDate="2016-09-11T15:12:27.500" UserId="57" Text="From what I gathered, a Planetnik seems to be an air spirit that is somehow associated with [Perun][1], the Slavic god of thunder and lightning. However, my sources are not particularly credible, contradictory and fail to mention any actual tales featuring the creature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What exactly is a Planetnik? What is its relationship with Perun, if any? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perun" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8127" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1977" RevisionGUID="e8c27471-abb7-456a-b079-6d009db22912" CreationDate="2016-09-11T15:12:27.500" UserId="57" Text="What is a Planetnik?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8128" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1977" RevisionGUID="e8c27471-abb7-456a-b079-6d009db22912" CreationDate="2016-09-11T15:12:27.500" UserId="57" Text="|folklore|slavic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8129" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1977" RevisionGUID="0935d536-fd43-49a2-a563-67510f710e82" CreationDate="2016-09-11T15:29:56.947" UserId="57" Comment="added 30 characters in body" Text="From what I gathered, a Planetnik seems to be an air spirit that is somehow associated with [Perun][1], the Slavic god of thunder and lightning. However, my sources are not particularly credible, sometimes contradictory and fail to mention any actual tales featuring the creature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What exactly is a Planetnik? How is one created? What is its relationship with Perun, if any? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perun" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8131" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1977" RevisionGUID="616ad567-d711-41b7-9e11-ab89e9758c65" CreationDate="2016-09-11T17:31:29.887" UserId="57" Comment="added 58 characters in body" Text="From what I gathered, a Planetnik seems to be an air spirit that is somehow associated with [Perun][1], the Slavic god of thunder and lightning. However, my sources are not particularly credible, sometimes contradictory and fail to mention any actual tales featuring the creature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What exactly is a Planetnik? What does it look like, and what are its main properties? How is one created? What is its relationship with Perun, if any? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perun" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8132" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1978" RevisionGUID="3d686dcb-45a8-41f9-84eb-03f193d13298" CreationDate="2016-09-11T18:11:45.727" UserId="2682" Text="It isn't referred to in any obvious terms as a &quot;world-tree&quot; in the mainstream mythology, but the concept might be present in the story of the wedding of Zeus and Hera, with which Zeus' favourite illegitimate son Herakles (one of Hera's most hated stepchildren) is ultimately connected. Zeus and Hera get married at the point of transition between the end of the cataclysmic Titans' War and the beginning of the state of equilibrium in which the gods are able to create humankind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Apollodorus, Gaia gave Zeus some magic golden apples as a wedding present. In his *Astronomica*, Hyginus cites Pherecydes as his source in saying that these apples came on branches which Hera asked Gaia to plant in her gardens (which, according to [Dick Caldwell](http://www.greecetravel.com/greekmyths/argos8.htm), are among several paradises in this mythology) near Mt Atlas in Morocco. At the time northwestern Africa was supposed to be the western end of the world, bordering the dusky side of the Okeanos [Oceanus] River (= the eastern Atlantic Ocean).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The planted branches thus grew into a tree which Hera appointed the nymphs called the Hesperides to watch over. The nymphs were, however, untrustworthy and would pilfer the magic fruit as it grew. For this reason Hera installed a guardian to watch over both the tree *and* the nymphs, and this new security feature was the hundred-headed dragon Ladon. Apollodorus calls Ladon immortal but Hyginus reports that he was slain by Herakles, who had been sent by his slave-master, King Eurystheus of Argolis, to steal the apples as the eleventh of his twelve labours.     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A few elements of the story might lead to the expectation that the apple-tree of the Hesperides is a gigantic organism. In ancient artwork Ladon is often depicted as coiled around the tree, a phenomenon corroborated in writing by Pausanias, in his inventory of the myth-related images he encounters while travelling through Olympia. Dragons in most mythologies, especially that of Greece, are typically colossal monsters. Hyginus and Seneca both say that Ladon is &quot;huge&quot;, and it might be fair to expect that the creature resembles his monstrous parents Typhoeus [Typhon] and Ekhidna [Echidna] in size to at least some extent. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the same art pieces depicting Ladon entwined upon the tree, Herakles and the Hesperides appear to be not much smaller than both the beast and the plant. The gigantic size of the Hesperides could be explained based on their parentage too, since both their parents are Titans (going by at least one interpretation of Diodorus Siculus). This still leaves Herakles unaccounted for, but it could be argued that in ancient Greek art, on account of the lack of space in the medium, portrayals of Titans, giants and monsters renders them in pretty much the same size as the gods and heroes alongside whom they are depicted. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whatever the case may be regarding the tree's stature, its story does strongly hint that it is a cosmic structure in the sense that it links a few different parts of the universe together. Far enough into the Okeanos River away from dry land would bring one into the Underworld. Hera's Gardens, where the tree is located, are on the shores of the Okeanos, on the Evening side of the universe, where Night (Nyx), the mother of Death (Thanatos), begins, and close to which Night's husband Darkness (Erebos) dwells. Contrasting this, the Hesperides, &quot;Daughters of Evening,&quot; serve as the guardians of immortality and deathlessness, represented by the apples. Apollodorus claims that the Atlas Mountain of this story is not in Africa but in the land of the Hyperboreans in the extreme north. This would be in the same direction of the lands of the Norsemen, whose gods are immortal because they feed on golden apples which restore their youth to them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Atlas, the sky-pillar, who keeps Heaven (or at least a portion thereof) from coming crashing down, is strongly associated with Hera's magic tree, so much so that Ovid's *Metamorphoses* portrays him as the owner of the tree and its fruit. Perhaps in this account the tree acts as the Titan's proxy, bearing the responsibility of holding the sky up, and thereby being a conduit between Heaven and Earth, which conduit is also located on the border of the netherworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are striking parallels, together with interesting contrasts, between this story and the drama surrounding a tree (or two trees) in a paradise garden at the beginning of the Bible. As the Wikipedia article you've quoted says, the world tree concept &quot;may also be strongly connected to the motif of the tree of life.&quot; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8133" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1831" RevisionGUID="e745cfc1-fc4b-4558-a209-9a85ca507985" CreationDate="2016-09-11T18:45:30.757" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags; edited title" Text="What cultures believe that the stars are other worlds/places?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8134" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1831" RevisionGUID="e745cfc1-fc4b-4558-a209-9a85ca507985" CreationDate="2016-09-11T18:45:30.757" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags; edited title" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8135" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="163" RevisionGUID="6bdad503-d1bf-4192-bcb8-b859e7513409" CreationDate="2016-09-11T18:50:33.007" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|roman|orphism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8137" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1979" RevisionGUID="efadde00-f10c-4179-878a-5984bb8af751" CreationDate="2016-09-11T19:47:08.843" UserId="123" Text="I thought muses were patrons of all arts. i knew modern arts like photography or cinema would be attributed by extension to a &quot;visual arts&quot; muse. I thought there were &quot;classical arts&quot; painting and writing muses. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;i just re_read about them and found the 9 muses only covereded things like poetry, musique, singing, tragedy, comedy, history, astrology, and retorique. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there no muses for the fiction writer or the painter?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8138" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1979" RevisionGUID="efadde00-f10c-4179-878a-5984bb8af751" CreationDate="2016-09-11T19:47:08.843" UserId="123" Text="Do Muses govern the arts?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8139" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1979" RevisionGUID="efadde00-f10c-4179-878a-5984bb8af751" CreationDate="2016-09-11T19:47:08.843" UserId="123" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8140" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1980" RevisionGUID="99833489-0776-4e81-a4c9-74a3ba85022f" CreationDate="2016-09-11T20:09:58.530" UserId="57" Text="I'm converting my comment to an answer, because a battle between the people of the Sun and the people of the Moon (over colonization of Venus) is the exact premise of [Lucian's](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucian) [True History](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_History). And yes, the armies of the Sun eventually win the battle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The satire may be written in Greek, but Lucian was Assyrian and lived in [Samosata](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samosata) (modern day Turkey, near the border with Syria). This might explain why you thought the myth was of Middle Eastern origin. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An English translation of the story by A.M. Harmon is available on Sacred-Texts: http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/luc/true/index.htm&#xD;&#xA; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8141" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1979" RevisionGUID="aa2b91e2-53a6-43cb-9ec7-e17839dbe6d2" CreationDate="2016-09-11T20:12:06.263" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 15 characters in body" Text="I thought Muses were patrons of all arts. I knew modern arts like photography or cinema would be attributed by extension to a &quot;visual arts&quot; muse. I thought there were &quot;classical arts&quot; painting and writing Muses. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I just re-read about them and found the 9 muses only covered things like poetry, music, singing, tragedy, comedy, history, and astronomy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there no Muses for the fiction writer or the painter?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8142" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1979" RevisionGUID="6a519484-1af4-48d8-bf8c-3dd893bde631" CreationDate="2016-09-11T20:18:05.023" UserId="123" Comment="deleted 6 characters in body" Text="I thought Muses were patrons of all arts. I knew modern arts like photography or cinema would be attributed by extension to a &quot;visual arts&quot; muse. I thought there were &quot;classical arts&quot; painting and writing Muses. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I just re-read about them and found the 9 muses only covered things like poetry, music, singing, tragedy, comedy, history, and astronomy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there no Muses for the novelist or the painter?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8143" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1523" RevisionGUID="c4898597-4145-4edc-87f3-cef3ace8cb59" CreationDate="2016-09-11T20:48:31.187" UserId="123" Comment="added 530 characters in body" Text="I remember reading about a mythic battle between the forces of the moon and the sun. Not conflicts between Sun and Moon, but a war between armies of the sun and of the moon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of them, the sun possibly, won. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The myth might have been from India, Persia or Babylonia. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am interested in the origin of the myth and if there are similar myths in other cultures? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Edit/ about Lucian's True History&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would have remembered non-sense fantasy elements, seas of milk, or flying acorns.... and even more so since i grew up in the Gibraltar strait&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think it was a foundation myth to establish the right to rule by a new dynasty. I am not certain that it was Indian and I may have mixed up two myths, but I seem to recall huge battles with elephants. The armies of the sun were like the new dynasty rightly conquering the &quot;corrupt&quot; old dynasty of the moon king or something like that.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8145" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1523" RevisionGUID="2b266081-2143-4ebc-bc0e-9283818a90bd" CreationDate="2016-09-11T20:56:22.927" UserId="123" Comment="added 78 characters in body" Text="I remember reading about a mythic battle between the forces of the moon and the sun. Not conflicts between Sun and Moon, but a war between armies of the sun and of the moon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of them, the sun possibly, won. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The myth might have been from India, Persia or Babylonia. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am interested in the origin of the myth and if there are similar myths in other cultures? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Edit**/ about Lucian's True History&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would have remembered non-sense fantasy elements, seas of milk, or flying acorns.... and even more so since i grew up in the Gibraltar strait&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think it was a foundation myth to establish the right to rule by a new dynasty. I am not certain that it was Indian and I may have mixed up two myths, but I seem to recall huge battles with elephants. The armies of the sun were like the new dynasty rightly conquering the &quot;corrupt&quot; old dynasty of the moon king or something like that.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further search; possibly the non-vedic kings in the Mahabharata war&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8147" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1982" RevisionGUID="1bf87055-6458-4779-96f7-8dcd95f2a251" CreationDate="2016-09-12T08:28:21.193" UserId="2682" Text="**On the Importance of the Wine-God**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dionysos-Bacchus may not have been the most powerful, most important deity of Greece or Rome, nevertheless, for cultures to whom feasts, agriculture and procreation were of no small significance, such as were those of the Greeks and the Romans (and would still be the case today), the god was certainly integral to everyday life. Wine is actually a nicely concise shorthand or connector for all these aspects of life, because its growth requires fertility, which affects cultivation efforts in general; parties and other such communal gatherings in numerous places the world over, for millennia, have generally been thought to be drab or uncool sans alcohol; and there have always been strong connections between the fertility of the earth and the activities of reproduction for both human beings and animals. Hence the realm presided over by Dionysos-Bacchus absorbs all these aspects of daily and communal life into itself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason he stands somewhat aloof from the rest of the pantheon(s) is because he represents the removal of inhibition which many of the more conscientious, civic-bound deities represent. Where they are urban, proper and self-contained, he is wild, alien and unrestricted. Where they would enjoin clear thinking, he is the advocate for the distorted state of mind required in order to escape the mundane drudgery of everyday existence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**An Imported Rendition of Himself**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notwithstanding those facts, I would certainly agree that, as understood in the mainstream Olympian and Roman religions, the god of wine and drunkenness is certainly a glaring contradiction for an ascetic, vegetarian lifestyle as envisioned in Orphism: the way of the mystic Orpheus, who, most ironically, in one version of his death story, was violently dismembered by revelling followers of Dionysos who were upset with him for refusing to participate in their orgy because he was in grief mourning the loss of his wife!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Certain ancient Greek writers do explicitly distinguish the mainstream Dionysos from the one venerated in the cult of Orpheus, saying precisely what you're asking about: that the Orphic Dionysos is a foreign deity who was imported—stolen, even—from Africa or the Near East and transposed onto the Greek (and thus later Roman) wine-god. Orpheus is supposed to have copied the mysteries of the Egyptian Osiris and brought them into Greece in a different form as the mysteries of Dionysos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herodotus writes that the man who did this was the great prophet Melampus, a descendant of Aigyptos [Aegyptus], the king from whom Egypt got its name. In Book 2 of his *Historiai*, &quot;Histories,&quot; Herodotus recalls the journey made by Aigyptos' cousin, the Tyro-Sidonian prince Kadmos [Cadmus], in search of his sister Europa, after whom Europe was named; and how Melampus learned the Canaanite ways of Dionysos mostly from Kadmos and the Canaanites with he whom he came into Boiotia [Boeotia]. (According to the Egyptian writer Nonnus, these Canaanites were originally Egyptians who had migrated to Canaan from Memphis with Kadmos' father Agenor. Kadmos and Europa are supposed to have been born and spent their earliest years in Egypt, in the house of their uncle Belos [Belus], who was king of the land before his son Aigyptos.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now for anyone who knows the basics of Dionysos' family tree, there's a big chronological discrepancy in Herodotus' claim about Melampus learning Dionysos' mysteries from a young Kadmos, because Kadmos is the maternal *grandfather* of Dionysos, and the wine-god was born a good long while after Kadmos had left Canaan and become king of Boiotian Thebes! It could therefore only mean that either Herodotus rejects the traditional family tree of Dionysos, or he's outright saying that the Dionysos of Melampus is quite distinct from the Theban grandson of Kadmos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Zagreus, the First Dionysos**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The need to distinguish between these *Dionysoi* would appear to be the inspiration for the myth of a Dionysos who was before Dionysos, that is to say an incarnation of the god before he was born as Kadmos' grandson. The most detailed rendition of just such a thing is recounted by Nonnus in his epic poem the *Dionysiaka*, in which Dionysos is a reincarnation of an ancient, beautiful and monstrous shape-shifting baby god named Zagreus. Like Dionysos after him he too is a son of Zeus, sired upon Zeus' own daughter Persephone before she becomes the wife of her uncle Hades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zagreus, born before the existence of humans, was Zeus most favourite child, of whom he was so fond that he planned to abdicate his throne in favour of this child, whom he even allowed to play with his lightning bolts. Horrified at this state of affairs, Zeus' wife Hera induced some of the Titans to lure the baby away, and they tore him to pieces which they devoured. Aggrieved at this Zeus used his lightning to reduce the murderers to ashes, from which, after being mixed with earth and water, humankind then arose. Zagreus' heart was somehow retrieved and continued beating. Centuries later Zeus then implanted this heart into his lover, Kadmos' daughter Semele, from which union Dionysos was born.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Orphics used this version of the creation story to explain why human beings are stuck in a wheel of death and rebirth (virtually identical to the concept of *saṃsāra* in Hinduism and Buddhism) with the human soul (Dionysos Zagreus) and body (the Titans) as separate entities, the former trapped inside, or being devoured by, the latter. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The New Encyclopædia Britannica, *Micropædia*, explains this understanding of humans as the combination of &quot;an earthly (Titanic) nature that had to be suppressed and a heavenly (Dionysiac) nature that had to be cultivated. This was accomplished by living an Orphic life, which included abstention from meat, wine and sexual intercourse.” (With all that being so then the Dionysos who reincarnated Zagreus is definitely not an Orphic.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Some More On Importance**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The oldest extant written reference to Zagreus, from a fragment of the now-lost epic [*Alkmaionis*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcmeonis), says that he and Gaia are &quot;above all other gods&quot;. Herodotus believed that the Arabians of his time worshipped only Aphrodite Ourania [Urania] and Dionysos, the latter of whom he says they addressed by the name Orotalt. *Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable* attempts to explain the purported foreign name as a corruption of the ancient Arabic term for &quot;God Most High.&quot;           " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8148" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1982" RevisionGUID="cace87e8-bec4-40a7-8089-648925fe7123" CreationDate="2016-09-12T08:58:12.757" UserId="111" Comment="added links to the texts you're mentioning" Text="**On the Importance of the Wine-God**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dionysos-Bacchus may not have been the most powerful, most important deity of Greece or Rome, nevertheless, for cultures to whom feasts, agriculture and procreation were of no small significance, such as were those of the Greeks and the Romans (and would still be the case today), the god was certainly integral to everyday life. Wine is actually a nicely concise shorthand or connector for all these aspects of life, because its growth requires fertility, which affects cultivation efforts in general; parties and other such communal gatherings in numerous places the world over, for millennia, have generally been thought to be drab or uncool sans alcohol; and there have always been strong connections between the fertility of the earth and the activities of reproduction for both human beings and animals. Hence the realm presided over by Dionysos-Bacchus absorbs all these aspects of daily and communal life into itself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason he stands somewhat aloof from the rest of the pantheon(s) is because he represents the removal of inhibition which many of the more conscientious, civic-bound deities represent. Where they are urban, proper and self-contained, he is wild, alien and unrestricted. Where they would enjoin clear thinking, he is the advocate for the distorted state of mind required in order to escape the mundane drudgery of everyday existence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**An Imported Rendition of Himself**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notwithstanding those facts, I would certainly agree that, as understood in the mainstream Olympian and Roman religions, the god of wine and drunkenness is certainly a glaring contradiction for an ascetic, vegetarian lifestyle as envisioned in Orphism: the way of the mystic Orpheus, who, most ironically, in one version of his death story, was violently dismembered by revelling followers of Dionysos who were upset with him for refusing to participate in their orgy because he was in grief mourning the loss of his wife!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Certain ancient Greek writers do explicitly distinguish the mainstream Dionysos from the one venerated in the cult of Orpheus, saying precisely what you're asking about: that the Orphic Dionysos is a foreign deity who was imported—stolen, even—from Africa or the Near East and transposed onto the Greek (and thus later Roman) wine-god. Orpheus is supposed to have copied the mysteries of the Egyptian Osiris and brought them into Greece in a different form as the mysteries of Dionysos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herodotus writes that the man who did this was the great prophet Melampus, a descendant of Aigyptos [Aegyptus], the king from whom Egypt got its name. In [Book 2 of his *Historiai*](http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.2.ii.html), &quot;Histories,&quot; Herodotus recalls the journey made by Aigyptos' cousin, the Tyro-Sidonian prince Kadmos [Cadmus], in search of his sister Europa, after whom Europe was named; and how Melampus learned the Canaanite ways of Dionysos mostly from Kadmos and the Canaanites with he whom he came into Boiotia [Boeotia]. (According to the Egyptian writer Nonnus, these Canaanites were originally Egyptians who had migrated to Canaan from Memphis with Kadmos' father Agenor. Kadmos and Europa are supposed to have been born and spent their earliest years in Egypt, in the house of their uncle Belos [Belus], who was king of the land before his son Aigyptos.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now for anyone who knows the basics of Dionysos' family tree, there's a big chronological discrepancy in Herodotus' claim about Melampus learning Dionysos' mysteries from a young Kadmos, because Kadmos is the maternal *grandfather* of Dionysos, and the wine-god was born a good long while after Kadmos had left Canaan and become king of Boiotian Thebes! It could therefore only mean that either Herodotus rejects the traditional family tree of Dionysos, or he's outright saying that the Dionysos of Melampus is quite distinct from the Theban grandson of Kadmos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Zagreus, the First Dionysos**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The need to distinguish between these *Dionysoi* would appear to be the inspiration for the myth of a Dionysos who was before Dionysos, that is to say an incarnation of the god before he was born as Kadmos' grandson. The most detailed rendition of just such a thing is recounted by [Nonnus in his epic poem the *Dionysiaka*](http://www.theoi.com/Text/NonnusDionysiaca6.html), in which Dionysos is a reincarnation of an ancient, beautiful and monstrous shape-shifting baby god named Zagreus. Like Dionysos after him he too is a son of Zeus, sired upon Zeus' own daughter Persephone before she becomes the wife of her uncle Hades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zagreus, born before the existence of humans, was Zeus most favourite child, of whom he was so fond that he planned to abdicate his throne in favour of this child, whom he even allowed to play with his lightning bolts. Horrified at this state of affairs, Zeus' wife Hera induced some of the Titans to lure the baby away, and they tore him to pieces which they devoured. Aggrieved at this Zeus used his lightning to reduce the murderers to ashes, from which, after being mixed with earth and water, humankind then arose. Zagreus' heart was somehow retrieved and continued beating. Centuries later Zeus then implanted this heart into his lover, Kadmos' daughter Semele, from which union Dionysos was born.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Orphics used this version of the creation story to explain why human beings are stuck in a wheel of death and rebirth (virtually identical to the concept of *saṃsāra* in Hinduism and Buddhism) with the human soul (Dionysos Zagreus) and body (the Titans) as separate entities, the former trapped inside, or being devoured by, the latter. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The New Encyclopædia Britannica, *Micropædia*, explains this understanding of humans as the combination of &quot;an earthly (Titanic) nature that had to be suppressed and a heavenly (Dionysiac) nature that had to be cultivated. This was accomplished by living an Orphic life, which included abstention from meat, wine and sexual intercourse.” (With all that being so then the Dionysos who reincarnated Zagreus is definitely not an Orphic.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Some More On Importance**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The oldest extant written reference to Zagreus, from a fragment of the now-lost epic [*Alkmaionis*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcmeonis), says that he and Gaia are &quot;above all other gods&quot;. Herodotus believed that the Arabians of his time worshipped only Aphrodite Ourania [Urania] and Dionysos, the latter of whom he says they addressed by the name Orotalt. *Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable* attempts to explain the purported foreign name as a corruption of the ancient Arabic term for &quot;God Most High.&quot;           " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8149" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1983" RevisionGUID="36e61402-f794-4c85-ac3c-21a959631a0d" CreationDate="2016-09-12T09:34:21.363" UserId="2774" Text="Not sure of the Mythological nature of your question.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The Bermuda Triangle is a modern thing dating from 1945 and lost of 5 airships. They totally and simply vanished. No wreckage. No bodies. Silence. By the way Spielberg used that event in Close Encounters of the Third Kind.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;But anyway, put the Bermuda Triangle in the usual basket:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Area 51&#xD;&#xA; - Nessie&#xD;&#xA; - Crop circles&#xD;&#xA; - Nostradamus/Saint Malachy/Paco Rabanne prophecies&#xD;&#xA;There is dozen of such hoaxes and the modern Internet  so love hoaxes!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8150" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1984" RevisionGUID="83d1e282-0267-4c90-bb87-c19a372a23d9" CreationDate="2016-09-12T10:41:29.833" UserId="2682" Text="It would appear that you are correct in saying that there is no mention—at least not in the ancient mythographers—of the origin of Hermes' shoes. In the Wikipedia article [about the shoes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talaria), it is claimed that &quot;They were said to be made by the god Hephaestus of imperishable gold and they flew the god as swift as any bird.&quot; There is, however, no source indicated for this assertion (hence the 2013 &quot;Citation Needed&quot; tag on the statement in the article). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Odyssey*, Homer does indeed say that the sandals are golden and composed partly of ambrosia, but, as noted both by Wikipedia, and by William Smith's 1870 Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology, &quot;Homer no where says or suggests that they were provided with wings.&quot; It was later writers and also sculptors who portrayed them this way, whereas they originally were more ordinary, wingless footwear.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With all that being the case, Hephaistos [Hephaestus] would be the natural choice for the origin of the shoes, winged or not, since he was the resident metalworker and craftsman for the Olympian deities. If not him then the original three Cyclopes who were the great-uncles of Hermes and Hephaistos, and together with whom Hephaistos worked on Zeus' lightning bolts, would be the next best candidates. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As the ancient sources stand, however, there seems to be no explicit indication of where the shoes came from, or if, like a few of the treasured items of Hermes, he stole them from, say, the [Telkhines](http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Telkhines.html) [Telchines], or made them himself using the wings of the defeated rainbow-goddess [Arke](http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Arke.html), or any other likely alternative.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8151" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1984" RevisionGUID="1af4d443-2d15-4788-9e51-bf7359c9b8b6" CreationDate="2016-09-12T11:54:02.717" UserId="2682" Comment="improved formatting" Text="It would appear that you are correct in saying that there is no mention—at least not in the ancient mythographers—of the origin of Hermes' shoes. In the Wikipedia article [about the shoes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talaria), it is claimed that &quot;They were said to be made by the god Hephaestus of imperishable gold and they flew the god as swift as any bird.&quot; There is, however, no source indicated for this assertion (hence the 2013 `citation needed` tag on the statement in the article). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Odyssey*, Homer does indeed say that the sandals are golden and composed partly of ambrosia, but, as noted both by Wikipedia, and by William Smith's 1870 Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology, &quot;Homer no where says or suggests that they were provided with wings.&quot; It was later writers and also sculptors who portrayed them this way, whereas they originally were more ordinary, wingless footwear.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With all that being the case, Hephaistos [Hephaestus] would be the natural choice for the origin of the shoes, winged or not, since he was the resident metalworker and craftsman for the Olympian deities. If not him then the original three Cyclopes who were the great-uncles of Hermes and Hephaistos, and together with whom Hephaistos worked on Zeus' lightning bolts, would be the next best candidates. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As the ancient sources stand, however, there seems to be no explicit indication of where the shoes came from, or if, like a few of the treasured items of Hermes, he stole them from, say, the [Telkhines](http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Telkhines.html) [Telchines], or made them himself using the wings of the defeated rainbow-goddess [Arke](http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Arke.html), or any other likely alternative.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8153" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1934" RevisionGUID="b958e20c-30a0-46c1-87d6-f0eff07d4e00" CreationDate="2016-09-12T13:00:33.817" UserId="2928" Comment="edited body" Text="[Nandi][1] (Hinduism) is a bull. I think you could argue that Nandi is a god. He is a devotee of Shiva, but he is worshipped as a god in all Saivaite temples. He is also seen as very powerful and is the Master of 18 gurus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Image attribution: [Wikimedia Commons][3]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nandi_(bull)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/C5BK1.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nandi_(bull)#/media/File:Nandi_Chamundi_Mysore.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8154" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1985" RevisionGUID="5543d73b-7c22-4754-b982-f8bd8f9d4797" CreationDate="2016-09-12T16:38:27.357" UserId="2965" Text="The short answer for this question is no. There technically aren't Muses assigned to painting or novelists. However, that doesn't mean that they aren't governed by a God or Goddess. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Athena is known to be the Goddess of wisdom, courage, inspiration, civilization, law and justice, mathematics, strength, war strategy, **the arts**, **crafts, and skill**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So if there isn't a Muse for a particular art form, Athena is your girl. Other Gods and Goddesses are also Patrons of certain art forms, like Apollo, but there is a Muse for the poetry and the song, unlike for painting." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8155" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="853" RevisionGUID="c7b33c92-3da3-4b5a-b731-cdef4a07cf9b" CreationDate="2016-09-12T19:02:29.553" UserId="188" Comment="'lost an eye' into 'had an eye removed'" Text="Are there any other gods that permanently had an eye removed, other than Odin?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I can't find any other gods that had one of their eyes other than Horus, which wasn't even permanent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Edit: Thank you to femtoRgon for the Graeae.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Looked here already:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Disabled Deities](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DisabledDeity)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Eyepatch of Power](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EyepatchOfPower)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[EyeScream - Mythology](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/EyeScream/Mythology)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8156" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="853" RevisionGUID="c7b33c92-3da3-4b5a-b731-cdef4a07cf9b" CreationDate="2016-09-12T19:02:29.553" UserId="188" Comment="'lost an eye' into 'had an eye removed'" Text="Are there any other gods that permanently had an eye removed, other than Odin?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8157" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="853" RevisionGUID="8ce03131-1570-486d-be05-26b58b03dccc" CreationDate="2016-09-12T23:00:19.023" UserId="967" Comment="deleted 48 characters in body; edited tags" Text="Are there any other gods that permanently had an eye removed, other than Odin?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I can't find any other gods that had one of their eyes other than Horus, which wasn't even permanent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Looked here already:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Disabled Deities](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DisabledDeity)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Eyepatch of Power](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EyepatchOfPower)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[EyeScream - Mythology](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/EyeScream/Mythology)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8158" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="853" RevisionGUID="8ce03131-1570-486d-be05-26b58b03dccc" CreationDate="2016-09-12T23:00:19.023" UserId="967" Comment="deleted 48 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8159" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1986" RevisionGUID="bed26c2c-cfbb-4897-803a-3a1f6bb1aa76" CreationDate="2016-09-12T23:51:19.877" UserId="967" Text="[Greek gods were on Olympus.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the top of my head, I can also name some more, like the Muses and Ganymede, but, are there other people who lived on Mount Olympus?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/511/why-were-the-greek-gods-on-olympus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8160" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1986" RevisionGUID="bed26c2c-cfbb-4897-803a-3a1f6bb1aa76" CreationDate="2016-09-12T23:51:19.877" UserId="967" Text="Who lives in Mount Olympus usually?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8161" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1986" RevisionGUID="bed26c2c-cfbb-4897-803a-3a1f6bb1aa76" CreationDate="2016-09-12T23:51:19.877" UserId="967" Text="|greek|mount-olympus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8162" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1986" RevisionGUID="682e4519-4b34-4072-aaaa-cbe9e7197668" CreationDate="2016-09-13T06:46:23.460" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|olympus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8163" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="511" RevisionGUID="236e6a21-9c66-477b-9eba-9ea19b58698d" CreationDate="2016-09-13T06:46:36.430" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|olympus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8164" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1592" RevisionGUID="7b372687-711b-4337-8f40-5f7d67e1ff51" CreationDate="2016-09-13T06:46:43.483" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|olympians|olympus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8165" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1987" RevisionGUID="ac612282-384d-43ec-adb6-dcf50e82c2c2" CreationDate="2016-09-13T07:09:39.127" UserId="57" Text="The traditional view is that the palace of the Olympians resembled an ancient Greek [acropolis][1]. However, I couldn't find any actual description of the palace or even parts of it from ancient writers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How did the Greeks imagined the palace of the Olympians?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acropolis" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8166" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1987" RevisionGUID="ac612282-384d-43ec-adb6-dcf50e82c2c2" CreationDate="2016-09-13T07:09:39.127" UserId="57" Text="How did the Greeks imagined the palace of the Olympians?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8167" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1987" RevisionGUID="ac612282-384d-43ec-adb6-dcf50e82c2c2" CreationDate="2016-09-13T07:09:39.127" UserId="57" Text="|greek|olympus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8168" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1987" RevisionGUID="1f755e8a-24fb-4735-b501-a23bd19e5633" CreationDate="2016-09-13T08:10:37.333" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 1 character in body; edited title" Text="The traditional view is that the palace of the Olympians resembled an ancient Greek [acropolis][1]. However, I couldn't find any actual description of the palace or even parts of it from ancient writers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How did the Greeks imagine the palace of the Olympians?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acropolis" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8169" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1987" RevisionGUID="1f755e8a-24fb-4735-b501-a23bd19e5633" CreationDate="2016-09-13T08:10:37.333" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 1 character in body; edited title" Text="How did the Greeks imagine the palace of the Olympians?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8170" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1876" RevisionGUID="74f025c8-04c5-42f3-858b-839e39241866" CreationDate="2016-09-13T12:10:41.503" UserId="2774" Comment="Vas rewrite" Text="That is an historical question probably much more than a mythological one, because the Ramses was often depicted very black, they were perhaps black men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![ramses][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The document over show a clear proof for Ramses III, which founded the XX dynasty he is supposedly not related to Ramses I. Note that there as in a lot of places there is a lot of controversy about the skin colour of the Pharaoh.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Seth because he was first and foremost the God of desert (Translate, the God of strangers mostly because Egypt was the Nile [they was calling Egypt the 'whole Earth']) was highly praised by the Ramses in general. You find lots of the Ramses and Ramses related wearing a &quot;setic&quot; name, as Seti, for example. But tons of Ramsesides will have Set somewhere in their name. Not necessarily the Pharaoh themselves.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Here is a list of the Pharoah of the XIX dynasty, with the God they relate to:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Ramses (Ra)&#xD;&#xA; - Seti I (Set)&#xD;&#xA; - Ramses II the Great (Ra)&#xD;&#xA; - Meneptah (Ptah)&#xD;&#xA; - Seti II (Set)&#xD;&#xA; - Amenmesse (Amun)&#xD;&#xA; - Siptah (Ptah)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice all of them wear the name of a god in their name! 2 times Ra, 2 times Set, 2 times Ptah. &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Finally Setne is the son of Ramses the Great (Ramses II). In traditional Egyptian old literature Ramses II will divide in two distinctive characters:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Sesostris the one you find in Herodotus, the great conquerer (NB: that tradition can relate Sesostris as another pharoah including Seti I)&#xD;&#xA; - Ozymandias which represents a much more magical character. Alan Moore chose his name for one of the heroes in the Watchmen&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ramses II got a HUGE number of children (something like a 100, he was married at least 8 times + got numerous concubines). One of them was this Setne which has been a very brilliant and smart man. The Egyptian literature knownn him as Satni or Satni Khamois. He is most renown for his appearance in the *[Book of Thoth][2]* a story where he tries to unravel the mysterious book of Thoth and visits the tomb of Nenerferkeptah.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the relation between Set and Khawesemet is unquestionable. Just remind that Set has not always been a &quot;bad&quot; god. And between the 3/4 dynasty where few of those God existed and the Ptolmeaic there is lots of time and change in the myths, the gods and their importance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/UY7Hl.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Thoth" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8171" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1988" RevisionGUID="8931d566-d5fe-4ef0-ae9d-9c38f51ef51f" CreationDate="2016-09-13T12:21:40.597" UserId="2965" Text="When you think of Olympus, your mind usually goes straight to the big twelve:  Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Demeter, Athena, Apollo, Artemis, Ares, Aphrodite, Hephaestus, Hermes, and either Hestia or Dionysus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However there are Minor residents as well. Ganymede and the Horae are indeed found on Mount Olympus, as well as many others (see [Here][1] for a list at the bottom of the page)They aren't technically counted as &quot;Olympians&quot; but they reside on Mount Olympus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Olympians" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8172" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1988" RevisionGUID="f9c2670a-cb3b-4b2e-bd78-3e406d138fc4" CreationDate="2016-09-13T13:53:56.510" UserId="57" Comment="added 9 characters in body" Text="When you think of Olympus, your mind usually goes straight to the big twelve:  Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Demeter, Athena, Apollo, Artemis, Ares, Aphrodite, Hephaestus, Hermes, and either Hestia or Dionysus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However there are Minor residents as well. Ganymede and the Horae are indeed found on Mount Olympus, as well as many others (see [here][1] for a list). They aren't technically counted as &quot;Olympians&quot; but they reside on Mount Olympus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Olympians#Minor_residents_of_Mount_Olympus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8173" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1398" RevisionGUID="48838082-7834-4388-bc62-c68425c502b4" CreationDate="2016-09-14T01:51:42.280" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="8174" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1876" RevisionGUID="7f34011c-f1ad-4661-8741-507726f4fbbb" CreationDate="2016-09-14T09:46:50.173" UserId="2774" Comment="added 811 characters in body" Text="That is an historical question probably much more than a mythological one, because the Ramses was often depicted very black, they were perhaps black men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![ramses][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The document over show a clear proof for Ramses III, which founded the XX dynasty he is supposedly not related to Ramses I. Note that there as in a lot of places there is a lot of controversy about the skin colour of the Pharaoh.You can find at least a good introduction to this fact on the good old [Wikipedia][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Seth because he was first and foremost the God of desert (Translate, the God of strangers mostly because Egypt was the Nile [they was calling Egypt (The Nile region, not the modern country) the 'whole Earth']) was highly praised by the Ramses in general. You find lots of the Ramses and Ramses related wearing a &quot;setic&quot; name, as Seti, for example. But tons of Ramsesides will have Set somewhere in their name. Not necessarily the Pharaoh themselves.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Here is a list of the Pharoah of the XIX dynasty, with the God they relate to:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Ramses (Ra)&#xD;&#xA; - Seti I (Set)&#xD;&#xA; - Ramses II the Great (Ra)&#xD;&#xA; - Meneptah (Ptah)&#xD;&#xA; - Seti II (Set)&#xD;&#xA; - Amenmesse (Amun)&#xD;&#xA; - Siptah (Ptah)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice all of them wear the name of a god in their name! 2 times Ra, 2 times Set, 2 times Ptah. &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Finally Setne is the son of Ramses the Great (Ramses II). In traditional Egyptian old literature Ramses II will divide in two distinctive characters:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Sesostris the one you find in Herodotus, the great conquerer (NB: that tradition can relate Sesostris as another pharoah including Seti I)&#xD;&#xA; - Ozymandias which represents a much more magical character. Alan Moore chose his name for one of the heroes in the Watchmen&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ramses II got a HUGE number of children (something like a 100, he was married at least 8 times + got numerous concubines). One of them was this Setne which has been a very brilliant and smart man, an excellent scibe. The Egyptian literature known him as Satni or Satni Khamois. He is most renown for his appearance in the *[Book of Thoth][3]* (as Satni Khamois/Khamoïs) a story where he tries to unravel the mysterious book of Thoth and visits the tomb of Nenerferkeptah. Here is an abriged free [translation][4]. If you can read French you have this wonderful translation by [Gaston Maspero][5], Maspero is the one who cut the bands on Ramses II when he &quot;raised&quot; his arm, by the way. He appears also with his son Seosiris in another story. And finally in a short novel where he betrays an Assyrian beduin of the desert &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the relation between Set and Khawesemet is unquestionable. Just remind that Set has not always been a &quot;bad&quot; god. And between the 3rd/4th dynasty where few of those God existed, egyptians was then mostly interested in magical thing, and the Ptolmeaic era there is lot of time and changes in the myths, the gods and their importance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/UY7Hl.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_race_controversy&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Thoth&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/ael/ael07.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.mediterranee-antique.fr/Auteurs/Fichiers/MNO/Maspero_G/Contes/Contes_107.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8175" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1937" RevisionGUID="2492cc5b-fc0c-411c-a8e6-7e12fd40b3e6" CreationDate="2016-09-14T12:10:29.390" UserId="2774" Comment="Add description to the Roc" Text="To fully answer this question you need to divide the problem in two model:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The pure Coran creatures&#xD;&#xA; - The creature relative to the folklore as the one you find in the popular Arabian nights/1001 nights&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Creatures issued from the folklore&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The mythical [Roc](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roc_%28mythology%29) which is a giant bird. Its origin can be tracked to such animals as the Garuda in India or perhaps the Anzu(d) bird of Mesopotamia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the 5th voyage of Sinbad (1001 nights), this is a passage where the Roc [rukh &lt;== that is how Arabian call the bird] is described:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So I looked and seeing the merchants beating it with stones, called&#xD;&#xA;&gt; out to them, &quot;Stop, stop! do not meddle with that egg, or the bird&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Rukh will come out and break our ship and destroy us.&quot; But they paid&#xD;&#xA;&gt; no heed to me and gave not over smiting upon the egg, when behold, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; day grew dark and dun and the sun was hidden from us, as if some great&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cloud had passed over the firmament. So we raised our eyes and saw&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that what we took for a cloud was the Rukh poised between us and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sun, and it was his wings that darkened the day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Marco Polo himself gave this description of the animal:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It was for all the world like an eagle, but one indeed of enormous&#xD;&#xA;&gt; size; so big in fact that its quills were twelve paces long and thick&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in proportion. And it is so strong that it will seize an elephant in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; its talons and carry him high into the air and drop him so that he is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; smashed to pieces; having so killed him, the bird swoops down on him&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and eats him at leisure.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You will find the [Ifrit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ifrit), a subclass of the Jinn, in the tale of the Fisherman.[![enter image description here][1]][1]&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ghouls](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghoul), (&quot;ghūl&quot;) are Arabian in origin.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Buraq](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buraq) is a hybrid, sort of a  mix between a Pegasus and a centaur. [![enter image description here][2]][2]&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The Beast of the Earth, [Wikipedia link][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/2WJnb.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/N6bxr.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beast_of_the_Earth&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;Note: The [Jinn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinn), also commonly &quot;Genies&quot;, as they appear in the Arabian Nights are not specifically fire related.&lt;BR&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8176" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1937" RevisionGUID="8ecee0ea-ac01-4dde-8c7a-a6e1d37fc976" CreationDate="2016-09-14T12:17:40.073" UserId="2774" Comment="Add description to the Ifrit with Coran reference" Text="To fully answer this question you need to divide the problem in two model:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The pure Coran creatures&#xD;&#xA; - The creature relative to the folklore as the one you find in the popular Arabian nights/1001 nights&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Creatures issued from the folklore&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roc&#xD;&#xA;===&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The mythical [Roc](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roc_%28mythology%29) which is a giant bird. Its origin can be tracked to such animals as the Garuda in India or perhaps the Anzu(d) bird of Mesopotamia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the 5th voyage of Sinbad (1001 nights), this is a passage where the Roc [rukh &lt;== that is how Arabian call the bird] is described:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So I looked and seeing the merchants beating it with stones, called&#xD;&#xA;&gt; out to them, &quot;Stop, stop! do not meddle with that egg, or the bird&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Rukh will come out and break our ship and destroy us.&quot; But they paid&#xD;&#xA;&gt; no heed to me and gave not over smiting upon the egg, when behold, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; day grew dark and dun and the sun was hidden from us, as if some great&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cloud had passed over the firmament. So we raised our eyes and saw&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that what we took for a cloud was the Rukh poised between us and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sun, and it was his wings that darkened the day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Marco Polo himself gave this description of the animal:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It was for all the world like an eagle, but one indeed of enormous&#xD;&#xA;&gt; size; so big in fact that its quills were twelve paces long and thick&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in proportion. And it is so strong that it will seize an elephant in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; its talons and carry him high into the air and drop him so that he is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; smashed to pieces; having so killed him, the bird swoops down on him&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and eats him at leisure.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ifrit&#xD;&#xA;=====&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You will find the [Ifrit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ifrit), a subclass of the Jinn, in the tale of the Fisherman.[![enter image description here][1]][1]&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is what we find in the Arabian nights:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Curious, he (the fisherman) opened the bottle and found it empty. &quot;Just my luck,&quot; he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; muttered and prepared to toss it away when smoke poured out, and a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; monstrous-looking jinni appeared out of the smoke. &quot;Mighty Solomon, thank you for releasing me!&quot; the jinni roared.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You find a reference to this Djinn/Ifrit, and why he is calling for Solomon precisely in the Coran (27- 38:40):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 38 -[Solomon] said, &quot;O assembly [of jinn], which of you will bring me&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her throne before they come to me in submission?&quot; 39 - A powerful one&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from among the jinn said, &quot;I will bring it to you before you rise from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; your place, and indeed, I am for this [task] strong and trustworthy.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ghouls](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghoul), (&quot;ghūl&quot;) are Arabian in origin.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Buraq](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buraq) is a hybrid, sort of a  mix between a Pegasus and a centaur. [![enter image description here][2]][2]&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The Beast of the Earth, [Wikipedia link][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/2WJnb.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/N6bxr.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beast_of_the_Earth&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;Note: The [Jinn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinn), also commonly &quot;Genies&quot;, as they appear in the Arabian Nights are not specifically fire related.&lt;BR&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8177" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1937" RevisionGUID="2fb7db31-2ac8-4bb6-b413-ea799ce8346d" CreationDate="2016-09-14T12:34:39.670" UserId="2774" Comment="Add someghouls descriptions" Text="To fully answer this question you need to divide the problem in two model:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The pure Coran creatures&#xD;&#xA; - The creature relative to the folklore as the one you find in the popular Arabian nights/1001 nights&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Creatures issued from the folklore&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roc&#xD;&#xA;===&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The mythical [Roc](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roc_%28mythology%29) which is a giant bird. Its origin can be tracked to such animals as the Garuda in India or perhaps the Anzu(d) bird of Mesopotamia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the 5th voyage of Sinbad (1001 nights), this is a passage where the Roc [rukh &lt;== that is how Arabian call the bird] is described:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So I looked and seeing the merchants beating it with stones, called&#xD;&#xA;&gt; out to them, &quot;Stop, stop! do not meddle with that egg, or the bird&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Rukh will come out and break our ship and destroy us.&quot; But they paid&#xD;&#xA;&gt; no heed to me and gave not over smiting upon the egg, when behold, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; day grew dark and dun and the sun was hidden from us, as if some great&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cloud had passed over the firmament. So we raised our eyes and saw&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that what we took for a cloud was the Rukh poised between us and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sun, and it was his wings that darkened the day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Marco Polo himself gave this description of the animal:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It was for all the world like an eagle, but one indeed of enormous&#xD;&#xA;&gt; size; so big in fact that its quills were twelve paces long and thick&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in proportion. And it is so strong that it will seize an elephant in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; its talons and carry him high into the air and drop him so that he is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; smashed to pieces; having so killed him, the bird swoops down on him&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and eats him at leisure.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ifrit&#xD;&#xA;=====&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You will find the [Ifrit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ifrit), a subclass of the Jinn, in the tale of the Fisherman.[![enter image description here][1]][1]&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is what we find in the Arabian nights:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Curious, he (the fisherman) opened the bottle and found it empty. &quot;Just my luck,&quot; he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; muttered and prepared to toss it away when smoke poured out, and a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; monstrous-looking jinni appeared out of the smoke. &quot;Mighty Solomon, thank you for releasing me!&quot; the jinni roared.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You find a reference to this Djinn/Ifrit, and why he is calling for Solomon precisely in the Coran (27- 38:40):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 38 -[Solomon] said, &quot;O assembly [of jinn], which of you will bring me&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her throne before they come to me in submission?&quot; 39 - A powerful one&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from among the jinn said, &quot;I will bring it to you before you rise from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; your place, and indeed, I am for this [task] strong and trustworthy.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;ghouls&#xD;&#xA;======&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ghouls](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghoul), (&quot;ghūl&quot;) are scavengers. Wikipedia noticed their origin is in the Arabian Nights... Which is pretty false.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;You can find a probable track of them in the Sumerian/akkadian Gallu which was creatures/demons, related sometimes to Dumuzi(d) (The Tammuz of the Bible), extraordinary powerful. They are denizens of Hell. They help Inanna (Ishtar) flee the underworld, and one of them `Asag` is slain by the god warrior/farmer Ninurta (The Nimrod of the Bible).&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;You can find preislamic references is such story as the one of the Khalife Omar meeting such a ghoul and cutting off her head.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Buraq](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buraq) is a hybrid, sort of a  mix between a Pegasus and a centaur. [![enter image description here][2]][2]&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The Beast of the Earth, [Wikipedia link][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/2WJnb.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/N6bxr.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beast_of_the_Earth&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;Note: The [Jinn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinn), also commonly &quot;Genies&quot;, as they appear in the Arabian Nights are not specifically fire related.&lt;BR&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8178" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1937" RevisionGUID="b9b3ec68-33f6-472b-8815-900c759b5d08" CreationDate="2016-09-14T12:39:40.023" UserId="2774" Comment="clarify Prophet position" Text="To fully answer this question you need to divide the problem in two model:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The pure Coran creatures&#xD;&#xA; - The creature relative to the folklore as the one you find in the popular Arabian nights/1001 nights&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Creatures issued from the folklore&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roc&#xD;&#xA;===&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The mythical [Roc](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roc_%28mythology%29) which is a giant bird. Its origin can be tracked to such animals as the Garuda in India or perhaps the Anzu(d) bird of Mesopotamia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the 5th voyage of Sinbad (1001 nights), this is a passage where the Roc [rukh &lt;== that is how Arabian call the bird] is described:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So I looked and seeing the merchants beating it with stones, called&#xD;&#xA;&gt; out to them, &quot;Stop, stop! do not meddle with that egg, or the bird&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Rukh will come out and break our ship and destroy us.&quot; But they paid&#xD;&#xA;&gt; no heed to me and gave not over smiting upon the egg, when behold, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; day grew dark and dun and the sun was hidden from us, as if some great&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cloud had passed over the firmament. So we raised our eyes and saw&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that what we took for a cloud was the Rukh poised between us and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sun, and it was his wings that darkened the day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Marco Polo himself gave this description of the animal:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It was for all the world like an eagle, but one indeed of enormous&#xD;&#xA;&gt; size; so big in fact that its quills were twelve paces long and thick&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in proportion. And it is so strong that it will seize an elephant in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; its talons and carry him high into the air and drop him so that he is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; smashed to pieces; having so killed him, the bird swoops down on him&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and eats him at leisure.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ifrit&#xD;&#xA;=====&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You will find the [Ifrit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ifrit), a subclass of the Jinn, in the tale of the Fisherman.[![enter image description here][1]][1]&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is what we find in the Arabian nights:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Curious, he (the fisherman) opened the bottle and found it empty. &quot;Just my luck,&quot; he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; muttered and prepared to toss it away when smoke poured out, and a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; monstrous-looking jinni appeared out of the smoke. &quot;Mighty Solomon, thank you for releasing me!&quot; the jinni roared.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You find a reference to this Djinn/Ifrit, and why he is calling for Solomon precisely in the Coran (27- 38:40):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 38 -[Solomon] said, &quot;O assembly [of jinn], which of you will bring me&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her throne before they come to me in submission?&quot; 39 - A powerful one&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from among the jinn said, &quot;I will bring it to you before you rise from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; your place, and indeed, I am for this [task] strong and trustworthy.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;ghouls&#xD;&#xA;======&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ghouls](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghoul), (&quot;ghūl&quot;) are scavengers. Wikipedia noticed their origin is in the Arabian Nights... Which is pretty false.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;You can find a probable track of them in the Sumerian/akkadian Gallu which was creatures/demons, related sometimes to Dumuzi(d) (The Tammuz of the Bible), extraordinary powerful. They are denizens of Hell. They help Inanna (Ishtar) flee the underworld, and one of them `Asag` is slain by the god warrior/farmer Ninurta (The Nimrod of the Bible).&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;You can find preislamic references is such story as the one of the Khalife Omar meeting such a ghoul and cutting off her head.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Note that you find a very popular sentence (falsely attributed to Muhammad, it is from Bin Jabbir): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “No haamah and no Safar.” Muslim and others add the words, “No naw’&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and no ghoul.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Buraq](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buraq) is a hybrid, sort of a  mix between a Pegasus and a centaur. [![enter image description here][2]][2]&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The Beast of the Earth, [Wikipedia link][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/2WJnb.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/N6bxr.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beast_of_the_Earth&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;Note: The [Jinn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinn), also commonly &quot;Genies&quot;, as they appear in the Arabian Nights are not specifically fire related.&lt;BR&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8179" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1989" RevisionGUID="18d26888-ec74-45c5-8624-0f6b8a187278" CreationDate="2016-09-14T15:09:59.873" UserId="2909" Text="There is an Asura in Indian mythology called [RakthaVija][1]. It is difficult to see if his growth is technically *exponential*. But as the myth goes, he is able to replicate another version of himself from every drop of blood that touches ground ; quite handy skill in a battle. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As the story goes on, the primary godess (Durga, if I remember correctly) who was meant to kill this asura had to seek help of another godess (Kaali) whose one of the primary instincts is to drink blood. She helped the battle by drinking each drop before it touched the ground. Talk about specialized skill set. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raktavija" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8180" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1990" RevisionGUID="53fdf002-f17e-4ebf-a707-8fa110d323a2" CreationDate="2016-09-15T09:09:49.727" UserId="57" Text="In Homeric Hymn 22 (to Poseidon), we learn that Poseidon is lord of mount Helicon:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I begin to sing about Poseidon, the great god, mover of the earth and fruitless sea, god of the deep who is also lord of Helicon and wide Aegae. A two-fold office the gods allotted you, O Shaker of the Earth,  to be a tamer of horses and a saviour of ships!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: http://data.perseus.org/citations/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0013.tlg022.perseus-eng1:1&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do we know how the god of the sea became lord of a mountain?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Helicon" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8181" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1990" RevisionGUID="53fdf002-f17e-4ebf-a707-8fa110d323a2" CreationDate="2016-09-15T09:09:49.727" UserId="57" Text="How did Poseidon became lord of Helicon?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8182" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1990" RevisionGUID="53fdf002-f17e-4ebf-a707-8fa110d323a2" CreationDate="2016-09-15T09:09:49.727" UserId="57" Text="|greek|poseidon|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8183" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1990" RevisionGUID="252dae90-0a6a-4808-9bd4-1fd6bca98c08" CreationDate="2016-09-15T09:24:52.200" UserId="57" Comment="added 48 characters in body" Text="In Homeric Hymn 22 (to Poseidon), we learn that Poseidon is lord of mount Helicon:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I begin to sing about Poseidon, the great god, mover of the earth and fruitless sea, god of the deep who is also lord of Helicon and wide Aegae. A two-fold office the gods allotted you, O Shaker of the Earth,  to be a tamer of horses and a saviour of ships!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: http://data.perseus.org/citations/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0013.tlg022.perseus-eng1:1&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do we know how the god of the sea became associated with the mythologically important mountain?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8184" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1937" RevisionGUID="fa4e7077-bc97-410a-a9ec-54a89c86a56b" CreationDate="2016-09-15T10:28:13.707" UserId="2774" Comment="add the she-ghoul reference in 1001 nights; added 25 characters in body" Text="To fully answer this question you need to divide the problem in two models:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The pure Coran creatures&#xD;&#xA; - The creature relative to the folklore as the one you find in the popular Arabian nights/1001 nights&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Creatures issued from the folklore&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roc&#xD;&#xA;===&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The mythical [Roc](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roc_%28mythology%29) which is a giant bird. Its origin can be tracked to such animals as the Garuda in India or perhaps the Anzu(d) bird of Mesopotamia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the 5th voyage of Sinbad (1001 nights), this is a passage where the Roc [rukh &lt;== that is how Arabian call the bird] is described:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So I looked and seeing the merchants beating it with stones, called&#xD;&#xA;&gt; out to them, &quot;Stop, stop! do not meddle with that egg, or the bird&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Rukh will come out and break our ship and destroy us.&quot; But they paid&#xD;&#xA;&gt; no heed to me and gave not over smiting upon the egg, when behold, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; day grew dark and dun and the sun was hidden from us, as if some great&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cloud had passed over the firmament. So we raised our eyes and saw&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that what we took for a cloud was the Rukh poised between us and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sun, and it was his wings that darkened the day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Marco Polo himself gave this description of the animal:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It was for all the world like an eagle, but one indeed of enormous&#xD;&#xA;&gt; size; so big in fact that its quills were twelve paces long and thick&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in proportion. And it is so strong that it will seize an elephant in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; its talons and carry him high into the air and drop him so that he is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; smashed to pieces; having so killed him, the bird swoops down on him&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and eats him at leisure.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ifrit&#xD;&#xA;=====&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You will find the [Ifrit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ifrit), a subclass of the Jinn, in the tale of the Fisherman.[![enter image description here][1]][1]&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is what we find in the Arabian nights:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Curious, he (the fisherman) opened the bottle and found it empty. &quot;Just my luck,&quot; he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; muttered and prepared to toss it away when smoke poured out, and a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; monstrous-looking jinni appeared out of the smoke. &quot;Mighty Solomon, thank you for releasing me!&quot; the jinni roared.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You find a reference to this Djinn/Ifrit, and why he is calling for Solomon precisely in the Coran (27- 38:40):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 38 -[Solomon] said, &quot;O assembly [of jinn], which of you will bring me&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her throne before they come to me in submission?&quot; 39 - A powerful one&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from among the jinn said, &quot;I will bring it to you before you rise from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; your place, and indeed, I am for this [task] strong and trustworthy.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;ghouls&#xD;&#xA;======&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ghouls](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghoul), (&quot;ghūl&quot;) are malvolent demons, generally females. Wikipedia noticed their origin is in the Arabian Nights... Which is pretty false.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;You can find a probable track of them in the Sumerian/akkadian Gallu which was creatures/demons, related sometimes to Dumuzi(d) (The Tammuz of the Bible), extraordinary powerful. They are denizens of Hell. They help Inanna (Ishtar) flee the underworld, and one of them `Asag` is slain by the god warrior/farmer Ninurta (The Nimrod of the Bible).&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;You can find preislamic references is such story as the one of the Khalifa Omar meeting such a ghoul and cutting off her head.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In the Arabian nights you have the tale of the King's son and the She-ghoul (or ogress):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He let her down and she went into the ruins. Then he went after her,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ignorant of what she was and discovered she was a she-ghoul, who was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; saying to her children: &quot;I brought you a good, fat boy.&quot; They replied:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Mother, bring him to us, so that we may feed on his innards.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that you find a very popular sentence (falsely attributed to Muhammad, it is from Bin Jabbir): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “No haamah and no Safar.” Muslim and others add the words, “No naw’&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and no ghoul.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Buraq](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buraq) is a hybrid, sort of a  mix between a Pegasus and a centaur. [![enter image description here][2]][2]&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The Beast of the Earth, [Wikipedia link][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/2WJnb.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/N6bxr.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beast_of_the_Earth&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;Note: The [Jinn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinn), also commonly &quot;Genies&quot;, as they appear in the Arabian Nights are not specifically fire related.&lt;BR&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8185" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1991" RevisionGUID="8f30aa64-ee25-4f19-85c9-422dcc810c8f" CreationDate="2016-09-15T22:38:20.543" UserId="292" Text="That is a good question. There were several springs on Mt. Helicon, and I suspect the answer is connected to them. I found an interesting suggestion under [&quot;Hippocampus&quot;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocampus_(mythology)) in Wikipedia:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The appearance of hippocampi in both freshwater and saltwater is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; counter-intuitive to a modern audience, though not to an ancient one.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Greek picture of the natural hydrological cycle did not take into&#xD;&#xA;&gt; account the condensation of atmospheric water as rain to replenish the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; water table, but imagined the waters of the sea oozing back landwards&#xD;&#xA;&gt; through vast underground caverns and aquifers, rising replenished and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; freshened in springs.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thus it was natural for a temple at Helike in the coastal plain of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Achaea to be dedicated to Poseidon Helikonios, (the Poseidon of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Helicon), the sacred spring of Boeotian Helikon. When an earthquake&#xD;&#xA;&gt; suddenly submerged the city, the temple's bronze Poseidon accompanied&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by hippocampi continued to snag fishermens' nets.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Poseidon was god of earthquakes and horses as well as the sea. If Helicon had suffered tremors before it was submerged, that could explain the dedication to Poseidon. The spring at Helicon was supposedly created when [Pegasus's](http://www.theoi.com/Ther/HipposPegasos.html) hoof struck earth, or on the advice of Posedion himself, to stop its rising to heaven.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Two other springs there, the Aganippe and the Hippocrene, both have the word *hippos*, horse, in their names, which also suggest a connection to Poseidon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8190" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1994" RevisionGUID="a3e695cc-8868-4ea3-897e-685070df18d5" CreationDate="2016-09-16T07:43:35.533" UserId="2978" Text="I'd offer that the ancient celtic Gods of the Tuatha dé Danaan were another.  From the wiki page:&#xA;&#xA;&quot;In Irish-Celtic mythology, the Tuatha Dé Danann (&quot;People of the goddess Danu&quot;) are the Irish race of gods, founded by the goddess Danu. These gods, who originally lived on 'the islands in the west', had perfected the use of magic.&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8191" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1995" RevisionGUID="af374d71-24ca-4b29-b758-d70a407b109d" CreationDate="2016-09-16T09:54:47.560" UserId="57" Text="Paris of Troy was presumably an adult at the time of the marriage of Peleus and Thetis and the [Judgement of Paris][1]. That would mean Paris was at least 15-20 years older than Achilles. Other than that, I have no idea how old either was at the time of the Trojan War.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any mention in the Iliad, or any other ancient source of their ages?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgement_of_Paris" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8192" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1995" RevisionGUID="af374d71-24ca-4b29-b758-d70a407b109d" CreationDate="2016-09-16T09:54:47.560" UserId="57" Text="How old were Paris and Achilles at the time of the Trojan War?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8193" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1995" RevisionGUID="af374d71-24ca-4b29-b758-d70a407b109d" CreationDate="2016-09-16T09:54:47.560" UserId="57" Text="|greek|iliad|trojan-war|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8199" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1994" RevisionGUID="43f0888f-0fe8-4564-850d-52972c1eeb50" CreationDate="2016-09-16T23:23:09.480" UserId="967" Comment="added 76 characters in body" Text="I'd offer that the ancient Celtic Gods of the Tuatha dé Danaan were another.  From the [wiki page][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;In Irish-Celtic mythology, the Tuatha Dé Danann (&quot;People of the goddess Danu&quot;) are the Irish race of gods, founded by the goddess Danu. These gods, who originally lived on 'the islands in the west', had perfected the use of magic.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.pantheon.org/articles/t/tuatha_de_danann.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8203" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1934" RevisionGUID="e2bbffe2-adf0-4fbc-a75d-066916b0ed52" CreationDate="2016-09-16T23:37:28.553" UserId="2928" Comment="deleted 4 characters in body" Text="[Nandi][1] (Hinduism) is a bull. I think you could argue that Nandi is a god. He is a devotee of Shiva, but he is worshipped as a god in all Saivite temples. He is also seen as very powerful and the Master of 18 gurus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Image attribution: [Wikimedia Commons][3]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nandi_(bull)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/C5BK1.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nandi_(bull)#/media/File:Nandi_Chamundi_Mysore.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8207" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1996" RevisionGUID="002043b8-e902-41d8-a89f-e951fbeea250" CreationDate="2016-09-19T01:08:38.117" UserId="967" Text="[Apollo is Apollo.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, are they the exact same in qualities in both Roman and Greek mythology?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If not, what qualities did they share?&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/1685/967" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8208" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="1996" RevisionGUID="002043b8-e902-41d8-a89f-e951fbeea250" CreationDate="2016-09-19T01:08:38.117" UserId="967" Text="Was Apollo the exact same in Greek and Roman mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8209" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="1996" RevisionGUID="002043b8-e902-41d8-a89f-e951fbeea250" CreationDate="2016-09-19T01:08:38.117" UserId="967" Text="|greek|roman|apollo|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8210" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1958" RevisionGUID="a07c88c2-058b-45cb-b2e4-5adcad879eba" CreationDate="2016-09-19T10:12:15.563" UserId="2774" Comment="add small comments on the hebraic books and add feminism section" Text="Lilith in Mesopotamy&#xD;&#xA;--------------------&#xD;&#xA;First Lilith (Lilitu) is of Mesopotamian origin. She is a female &quot;demon&quot;/&quot;succubus&quot; (Consider I use here modern terms, Sumerian got no clue what those was). We find her in diverse stories most notable one is when she is coming to haunt Inanna's tree in Inanna and the Hullupu tree (We don't know what an Huluppu tree is).&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The years passed; five years, and then ten years.&lt;BR&gt; The tree grew thick,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But its bark did not split.&lt;BR&gt; Then the serpent who could not be charmed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Made it's nest in the roots of the huluppu-tree.&lt;BR&gt; The Anzu-bird set its&#xD;&#xA;&gt; young in the branches of the tree.&lt;BR&gt; And the dark maid Lilith built her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; home in the trunk.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note you find various versions and translations, but the idea is always the same. Lilith is vanquished by Gilgamesh there.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;She is related with death of new born children and such bad things.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lilith in the Holy Bible&#xD;&#xA;------------------------&#xD;&#xA;First there is not even one track of Lilith, per se, in the Holy bible. The one of the Christians. That said the Hebraic version will clarify what the Bible says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; creatures that move along the ground.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 27 So God created mankind in his own image,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    in the image of God he created them;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    male and female he created them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is a well known thing that here men and women are created from clay at the same time. BUT here woman is created AFTER from a man's rib:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But for Adam[f] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the Lord God&#xD;&#xA;&gt; caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he took one of the man’s ribs[g] and then closed up the place with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib[h] he had taken&#xD;&#xA;&gt; out of the man, and he brought her to the man.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That is the version most people know. But the Bible is still quite unclear if only Eve was a part of a rib or all the females.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lilith for the Hebrews&#xD;&#xA;----------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the Hebraic books, Adam got a first wife, precisely Lilith (sometimes named Adamah), modeled out of clay. And they divorced. There is several traditions according the reason of their separation. The most renowned (but well truly a joke) is that she wanted to be equal with Adam during sex. Which was not his taste, hence she was expelled from Paradise. This is from the Alpha Beta. (This is THE tradition you find everywhere.) Just here, The Alpha Beta (or Alphabet) 78 (Note this work is renown for being a gigantic satyre):&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When God created the first man Adam alone, God said, “It is not good&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for man to be alone.” [So] God created a woman for him, from the earth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; like him, and called her Lilith. They [Adam and Lilith] promptly began&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to argue with each other: She said, “I will not lie below,” and he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; said, “I will not lie below, but above, since you are fit for being&#xD;&#xA;&gt; below and I for being above.” She said to him, “The two of us are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; equal, since we are both from the earth.” And they would not listen to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; each other. Since Lilith saw [how it was], she uttered God's ineffable&#xD;&#xA;&gt; name and flew away into the air. Adam stood in prayer before his Maker&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and said, “Master of the Universe, the woman you gave me fled from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; me!”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another from Zohar says that she was not Adam's first wife or just a concubine and she became over jealous when Eve was created.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; After the primeval light was hidden, a husk was created for the brain,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and that husk spread out and brought forth another husk which was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lilith. And when she emerged, she went up and went down towards the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; little faces, and wanted to attach herself to them and be shaped after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; them, and did not want to depart from them. But the Holy One, blessed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; be He, removed her from there and placed her down below.    When He&#xD;&#xA;&gt; created Adam, in order to perfect this world, as soon as Lilith saw&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eve affixed to the side of Adam, and saw in them the beauty of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Above, and saw their perfect image, she flew off from there and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wanted, as before to attach herself to the little faces.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The tradition also usually makes her the snake that charmed Eve coiled around the tree of Life (cf. Lilith in Sumer's myth stealing Inanna's tree).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Small comment&#xD;&#xA;=============&#xD;&#xA;As much as I dislike giving personal opinion on things, here it is difficult to a least resist commenting a little bit.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The alphabet is presenting a couple where the woman wants to do some &quot;cowgirl&quot; and the man refuse! And for that Lilith is giving pretty bad name to God and flee. You clearly see why the Christians do not care about that book! And it is obvious why the book is considered non serious.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The Zohar story is slightly different. Here Lilith appears as a concubine of some sort and without being consulted on the matter, God creates a new woman. Let's face it, it is difficult to not understand Lilith's being seriously pissed off. Which also push me to notice the Zohar should be taken with high caution. &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lilith in Demonology&#xD;&#xA;--------------------&#xD;&#xA;Demonology also know Lilith as one of the 4 queens of Hell with Na'amah, Agrat Ba'at Malhat and Eischeth Zemium. Consider her as a wife/Consort of the ruler of Hell.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ruler can be Samaël, Asmodeus, Belzebub, etc. And sometimes you see Lilith the Old as Samaël's devoted wife, when you find a Lilith the Young in love with Asmodeus.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lilith for the feminists&#xD;&#xA;------------------------&#xD;&#xA;The feminists love Lilith. It is as I mentioned vastly renown that Lilith was Adam first wife carved from clay, as him, and wanted to be equal. Lilith is so for this behaviour very famous among the feminists aficionados. Lilith becoming an icon of the woman's liberty. Now it seems the feminists did not check the seriousness of their sources (or simply not checked them or worst) just because basing the men/women equality on such a book as the alphabet is... funny." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8211" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1841" RevisionGUID="e62b6068-ff03-400a-800b-b8ae5aa0eaf4" CreationDate="2016-09-19T10:17:50.727" UserId="2774" Comment="Add a comment on the displayed tree" Text="If what you want is a family tree &quot;per se&quot;, you can find a good dozen of them for free on the internet via your old pal Google. Here is a very solid one: [![http://www.truthcontrol.com/files/truthcontrol/images/7024.png][1]][1] &lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Notice this tree (as a lot you will find) is a Mesopotamian one, and especially Babylonian. The presence of Tiamat and Marduk clearly signs the Babylonian nature. The fact Inanna is the daughter of Nanna and not Enki is another clear proof. A pure sumerian tree would begin with An (the Anu of the Babylonian).&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now... if you need some sources.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;First imagine that anything centered on old Mesopotamia is vastly partially known, because it is OLD, terribly OLD, and what is written, was written on tablets most of them quite broken, or not so readable. And a lot of what we know of the Sumerian people is coming from the Babylonian or even later Hittites... if not in the Holy Bible!&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The definitive Sumerian source is Samuel Noah Kramer, the best myth introduction is that book: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    Sumerian Mythology: &#xD;&#xA;    Study of Spiritual and Literary Achievement in the Third Millennium B.C.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can also check:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    The Sumerians, their history, cultures and character&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is there a lot of fairly solid translations of major mythes/stories, as well as a great introduction to the Sumerian culture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A fairly good (but ridiculously over priced) book:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    William W. Hallo, The World’s Oldest Literature : &#xD;&#xA;    Studies in Sumerian Belles-Lettres&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now we are in 2016, and there is the Internet. Here is the best source I am aware of for Sumerian things: http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/ TONS of good material, with decent translations, lots of texts, poetries, songs. REALLY a great source. Really less expensive that Hallo's book...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MrDMX.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8212" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="1997" RevisionGUID="1046a622-4f68-4f27-9687-bc2501173b2e" CreationDate="2016-09-19T16:17:35.910" UserId="2986" Text="From [Wikipedia][1] The Roman worship of Apollo was adopted from the Greeks. As a quintessentially Greek god, Apollo had no direct Roman equivalent, although later Roman poets often referred to him as Phoebus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A similar question was asked here: [Was Apollo the sun god in Augustan Rome?][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1683/was-apollo-the-sun-god-in-augustan-rome" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8213" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1817" RevisionGUID="0359ff15-8570-4653-bda5-35e82e171193" CreationDate="2016-09-20T09:52:56.577" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="8214" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1841" RevisionGUID="128b8522-3768-452a-92f6-1532f012aad5" CreationDate="2016-09-20T10:01:30.947" UserId="2774" Comment="Add more references" Text="If what you want is a family tree &quot;per se&quot;, you can find a good dozen of them for free on the internet via your old pal Google. Here is a very solid one: [![http://www.truthcontrol.com/files/truthcontrol/images/7024.png][1]][1] &lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Notice this tree (as a lot you will find) is a Mesopotamian one, and especially Babylonian. The presence of Tiamat and Marduk clearly signs the Babylonian nature. The fact Inanna is the daughter of Nanna and not Enki is another clear proof. A pure sumerian tree would begin with An (the Anu of the Babylonian).&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;If you need some sources.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;First imagine that anything centered on old Mesopotamia is vastly partially known, because it is OLD, terribly OLD, and what is written, was written on tablets most of them quite broken, or not so readable. And a lot of what we know of the Sumerian people is coming from the Babylonian or even later Hittites... if not in the Holy Bible!&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;As an example, one of the most notable piece known and renown from Meopotomia is The Epic of Gilgamesh which in its most well acknowledge format is Babylonian. The main source tablets we have are from the Assyrian city of nineveh dating from king Assurbanipal. That demonstrates that most of out tablets source are either coming from unknown place or known and was copy of older text (The Assyrians coming after the Babylonians). On a side not the sumerian language was used as latin and greek inpaste time, not the linga franca but much more the intellectual language. That also makes difficult to know what is and what is not from Sumer.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The definitive Sumerian source is Samuel Noah Kramer, the best myth introduction is that [book][2] (freely available on sacred text): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    Sumerian Mythology: &#xD;&#xA;    Study of Spiritual and Literary Achievement in the Third Millennium B.C.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can also check:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    The Sumerians, their history, cultures and character&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is there a lot of fairly solid translations of major mythes/stories, as well as a great introduction to the Sumerian culture. this is by far a better book than the former but it is not free. And quite dated (As Sumerian mythology is).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A fairly good (but ridiculously over priced) book:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    William W. Hallo, The World’s Oldest Literature : &#xD;&#xA;    Studies in Sumerian Belles-Lettres&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now we are in 2016, and there is the Internet. Here is the best source I am aware of for Sumerian things: http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/ TONS of good material, with decent translations, lots of texts, poetries, songs. REALLY a great source. Really less expensive that Hallo's book...&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;You can find those texts in a book by Jeremy Black, [the Litterature of Ancient Sumer][3]. Same texts but with annotations which help if you are not over familiar with what are Anzud birds, Shuba stones and such.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MrDMX.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/sum/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Literature-Ancient-Sumer-Jeremy-Black/dp/0199263116" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8215" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1830" RevisionGUID="fb96d2ad-e388-4d2f-9266-de9f33964e1e" CreationDate="2016-09-20T10:09:01.697" UserId="2774" Comment="add harryhausen medusa" Text="So to answer this, the first thing I can remind you is... Gremlins 2, just listen when then are punning about the rules concerning the Mogwai... same here XD.&lt;BR&gt; &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now by itself, we find the first depiction of Medusa in the Iliad. Here is the passage with Robert Fagles translation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Over Athena's shoulders slung her shield, all tassels flaring&#xD;&#xA;&gt; terror—Panic mounted high in a crown around it, Hate and Defense&#xD;&#xA;&gt; across it, Assault to freeze the blood and right in their midst the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gorgon's monstrous head, that rippling dragon horror, sign of storming&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Agamemnon's shield: Circling the center, ten strong rings of bronze&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with twenty disks of glittering tin set in, at the heart a boss of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bulging blue steel and there like a crown the Gorgon's grim mask—the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; burning eyes, the stark transfixing horror—and round her strode the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shapes of Rout and Fear.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So at the origin we find her only on a shield. She takes some shape in the Odyssey becoming a servant of Persephone:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The dead came surging round me, [...] and blanching terror gripped&#xD;&#xA;&gt; me—panicked now that Queen Persephone might send up from Death some&#xD;&#xA;&gt; monstrous head, some Gorgon's staring face!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice she is striking fear and paralyze people, even simply on a shield.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later the main source we have is in the Apollodorus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now Medusa alone was mortal; for that reason Perseus was sent to fetch&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her head. But the Gorgons had heads twined about with the scales of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dragons, and great tusks like swine's, and brazen hands, and golden&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wings, by which they flew; and they turned to stone such as beheld&#xD;&#xA;&gt; them. So Perseus stood over them as they slept, and while Athena&#xD;&#xA;&gt; guided his hand and he looked with averted gaze on a brazen shield, in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which he beheld the image of the Gorgon, he beheaded her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice here the presence of a `brazen shield` in Perseus' hand. As well as the overall monstrous aspect of the Gorgons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now you have later Roman author Ovid, and here is the passage in the Metamorphoses:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the fields and along the paths, here and there, he saw the shapes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of men and animals changed from their natures to hard stone by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Medusa’s gaze. Nevertheless he had himself looked at the dread form of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Medusa reflected in a circular shield of polished bronze that he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; carried on his left arm. And while a deep sleep held the snakes and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; herself, he struck her head from her neck.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So Homer, Hesiod and Ovid all are saying the same: No one can bear the sight of Medusa. Even Ovid who is clearly mentioning the fact the creatures has been turned to stone by Medusa's gaze still has Perseus approaching her with his shield raised while she is sleeping.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note also Ovid does not give Medusa's lots of monstrous feature:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They say that Neptune [Poseidon], lord of the seas, violated her in the temple of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Minerva [Athena]. Jupiter’s daughter turned away, and hid her chaste eyes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; behind her aegis. So that it might not go unpunished, she changed the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gorgon’s hair to foul snakes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See only the hairs here are turned into vicious snakes. Notice also most of the back story we know are from here. When the monstrous aspects are more present in Hesiod (and mostly Ray Harryhaussen good old Clash of the Titans).&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Obviously we also have Ray Harryhausen modern interpretation in Clash of the Titans:&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;An horrible snake like creature with an hideous face. Most notable thing is the actors (not terribly good by the way) almost not move in front of her showing how they are petrified by fear. This can be put side to side with Jason's fight against the 7 headed hydra, the fact they do not really fight the Medusa was obviously a choice perfectly reflecting her monstrous and terrifying appearance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So you know:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Medusa has always been associated with shield&#xD;&#xA; 2. She is an incarnation of Terror (which pretrify you)&#xD;&#xA; 3. Here gaze turn you into stone (cf. point 2)&#xD;&#xA; 4. She is so terrifying that even when she is sleeping you cannot stare at her&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So factually Perseus does not wear a shield to not see her gaze (she is sleeping) but because even watching her sleeping form is way too much (cf Hesiod and Ovid). That is how terrifying Medusa is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/RMNfy.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8218" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1997" RevisionGUID="86550c60-2d68-4cc7-93e1-3a0e7aa1399a" CreationDate="2016-09-20T17:19:43.737" UserId="2986" Comment="added 63 characters in body" Text="Yes Apollo is the same god in both Greek and Roman mythology.&#xA;&#xA;From [Wikipedia][1] The Roman worship of Apollo was adopted from the Greeks. As a quintessentially Greek god, Apollo had no direct Roman equivalent, although later Roman poets often referred to him as Phoebus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A similar question was asked here: [Was Apollo the sun god in Augustan Rome?][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1683/was-apollo-the-sun-god-in-augustan-rome" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8226" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2000" RevisionGUID="a1f9c145-03b8-4f5c-8a16-f54d1859c289" CreationDate="2016-09-21T01:51:35.000" UserId="2909" Text="The only vague connection that I can think of is the rivalry between [Ganesha][1] and [Skanda][2] his brother. Skanda is often associated with and carries around several snakes and ganesha has an elephant head. There is a significant difference in degree in which these Gods are worshiped between northern and southern parts of India. Possibly symbolizing a rivalry.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganesha&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartikeya" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8231" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1701" RevisionGUID="da98efd3-1890-47bf-bbf2-304f36bed811" CreationDate="2016-09-21T15:11:15.037" UserId="14" Comment="edited tags" Text="|hindu|chronology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8232" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1701" RevisionGUID="da98efd3-1890-47bf-bbf2-304f36bed811" CreationDate="2016-09-21T15:11:15.037" UserId="14" Comment="edited tags" Text="One of the most well-known features of Hindu time-scales is the cycle of four Yugas, known as Satya, Treta, Dwapara, and Kali.  In the Satya (aka Krita) Yuga, almost all humans are good.  In the Treta Yuga, most humans are good but some are bad.  It's during one of the past Treta Yugas that the Hindu epic the Ramayana took place.  In the Dwapara Yuga, most humans are bad but some are good.  The Hindu epic the Mahabharata took place in the most recent  Dwapara Yuga.  And finally, we have the Kali Yuga, the age of evil we're currently living in, where almost all humans are bad.  The present Kali Yuga will end when Kalki, whom I discuss [here](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/684/14), comes and annihilates the evil people, and then the Satya Yuga will begin again.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now many cultures and ideologies idolize an imagined past in order to explain or criticize the world of the present.  So my question is, have any Indologists theorized that the Kali Yuga was invented in the Kali Yuga?  That is to say, have they theorized that the system of the four Yugas was invented at a certain point in time, that that point in time was declared to be part of the &quot;Kali Yuga&quot;, and Hindus have been considering themselves to be in the Kali Yuga ever since?  Or is the consensus of Indologists that there was a time in history when Hindus considered themselves to be living in some Yuga other than the Kali Yuga?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have come across Indologists who have advanced a slightly less bold thesis.  Most Hindu scriptures, including the Mahabharata and the Puranas, are believed to have been composed in the Dwapara Yuga.  So their discussion of the Kali Yuga take the form of prophecy, describing things like the mixing of castes, the abandoning of Vedic Dharma, and the invasion of India by Mlecchas or foreigners.  I have seen Indologists argue that such descriptions are not actual prophecies, but rather &quot;retroactive prophecies&quot; written by people who were describing the actual state of the society they were living in, and the faults they found with it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But have any Indologists gone one step further, and said that the very concept of the Kali Yuga was invented by people to diagnose why their society fell short of the ideas of Vedic society?  I suppose one piece of evidence they could use is that the Yuga system is seldom mentioned in the Vedas, and is mainly mentioned in later texts like the Puranas.  And also there is a verse, widely believed to be spurious, in the Brahma Vaivarta Purana which says certain Vedic practices like animal sacrifice and Niyoga (which I discuss [here](http://hinduism.stackexchange.com/a/7628/36)) were allowed in earlier Yugas but are prohibited in the Kali Yuga.  This could be seen as an indication that people were accustomed to using the concept of Yugas to relegate aspects of Hinduism they didn't like to an earlier age whose customs are presumed no longer relevant to the world as it is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that I am a devout Hindu and a strong believer in the Yuga system; I'm just posting this question because I'm curious as to what secular scholarship has to say on this subject.  I'm a [Hinduism Stackexchange](http://hinduism.stackexchange.com) moderator, but I'm posting the question here because I don't want people there mistakenly thinking that I'm casting doubt on the Yuga system." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8233" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1828" RevisionGUID="9fddc563-14dd-4f6a-bb5b-52f000695cbb" CreationDate="2016-09-22T10:10:45.030" UserId="2774" Comment="Add some extra details on the Egyptians homosexuality description" Text="It is difficult to find pure depiction of homosexuality. But hints and such there is. The Epic of Gilgamesh clearly illustrates that. The relationship between Enkidu and Gilgamesh if never clearly stating homosexuality makes you wonder a lot, from their first fight, when they roll on the ground intertwined, up to Enkidu's death and following Gilgamesh's mourning...&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now concerning God's and such, you have some of those clear hints in Egyptians Khnumhotep and Niankhkhnu.[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA; Just take a look at their portrait in their burial chamber... That is how even today either close buddies or lovers are holding. And speaking about Egypt you have one version of their Myth where Horus and Osiris have sex on the throne of Isis... You have also such a fight between Horus and Seth where they exchange semen a lot.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;WARNING: I provide to you the link (no pic here) of a tablet from obvious Egyptian time depicting a very clear relation between men. Once again, [click][2] only if you want.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;I could add, if you like reading old text some stories as the one of King Neferkare and general Sasenet. I provide you with a [link][3] to the story! The shortcut version is the Pharoah Nerferkare (Pepi II of the 6th dynasty... the story is from WAY after, toward the NEW kingdom,so do not mark this as a Pepi II behaviour) creeps at night to the house of his general Sasenet and goes out 4 hours after &quot;After his majesty had done that which he had wanted to do with him&quot;.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now in Greece... Take a look at the Illiad. Achilles is skulking all the song uptil his friend Patrocle is killed.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;You have Roman God Antinous (which was a favourite of Hadrian turned into a God) which is there totally Homosexual.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In India you can find god Aravan. Still today they held ceremony to him where men are crossdressing.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In celt myth you find another &quot;Gilgamesh-Enkidu&quot; relationship with Cuchulainn and Ferdiad. Factually Cuchulainn is killing Ferdiad by using his spear on Ferdiad's ass... ... (Very similar to let's say Baldr's death or Achilles' death, but way more explicit on one or two things)&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;I don't know true example in Norse myth but, they are late enough. You find at least on example of Thor crossdressing with another bisexual figure Loki.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In China myth you find some spirits called Xian which are spirit animals generally male loving males human beings (aka men). you have such a story in the myth The Farmer and the Dragon where the dragon is falling in love with and old farmer.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In Japan you have one myth where the sun goddess Amateratsu is hiding in a cave and the goddess Ame is doing a strip tease to lure her out.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;You have such a strip tease example when Babylonian/Sumerian Goddess Ishtar/Innana visits the queen of Hel Ereshkigal and removes one part of her garment at each door (strip tease) finally standing naked and powerless in front of the Queen.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Contrary to let's say rape, homosexuality is rarely depicted as clearly. but reading between the line there is everywhere. I am far from being versed enough in other's myth to say more. But I am aware of the god Chin of the Mayan culture which is another example of a God encouraging relationship between young men. I remind one of those carved wall where you have two men kissing. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/mXDOb.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details/collection_image_gallery.aspx?partid=1&amp;assetid=231692001&amp;objectid=156237&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/texts/sasenet.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8234" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1828" RevisionGUID="e147949a-a2f4-40d6-9587-fde5fde3b7e9" CreationDate="2016-09-22T10:21:01.277" UserId="2774" Comment="Rework Aravan description" Text="It is difficult to find pure depiction of homosexuality. But hints and such there is. The Epic of Gilgamesh clearly illustrates that. The relationship between Enkidu and Gilgamesh if never clearly stating homosexuality makes you wonder a lot, from their first fight, when they roll on the ground intertwined, up to Enkidu's death and following Gilgamesh's mourning...&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now concerning God's and such, you have some of those clear hints in Egyptians Khnumhotep and Niankhkhnu.[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA; Just take a look at their portrait in their burial chamber... That is how even today either close buddies or lovers are holding. And speaking about Egypt you have one version of their Myth where Horus and Osiris have sex on the throne of Isis... You have also such a fight between Horus and Seth where they exchange semen a lot.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;WARNING: I provide to you the link (no pic here) of a tablet from obvious Egyptian time depicting a very clear relation between men. Once again, [click][2] only if you want.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;I could add, if you like reading old text some stories as the one of King Neferkare and general Sasenet. I provide you with a [link][3] to the story! The shortcut version is the Pharoah Nerferkare (Pepi II of the 6th dynasty... the story is from WAY after, toward the NEW kingdom,so do not mark this as a Pepi II behaviour) creeps at night to the house of his general Sasenet and goes out 4 hours after &quot;After his majesty had done that which he had wanted to do with him&quot;.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now in Greece... Take a look at the Illiad. Achilles is skulking all the song uptil his friend Patrocle is killed.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;You have Roman God Antinous (which was a favourite of Hadrian turned into a God) which is there totally Homosexual.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In India you can find god Aravan. You have to devide the story between the Mahabarata which does not imply homosexuality and other south traditions. There Aravan propose to sacrifice himself to Kali but wants to get married, as he is not, as there is no female around (see the excuse...) Lord Vishnu takes the form of Mohini (a female version oh him). Still today they held ceremony in Koovagam to him where men are crossdressing. Note that Mohini appears in the Mahabarata but without such explicit homosexual reference, she appears as purely a female. A highly sexual female some Indian pictures are relatively very explicit on that. &lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In celt myth you find another &quot;Gilgamesh-Enkidu&quot; relationship with Cuchulainn and Ferdiad. Factually Cuchulainn is killing Ferdiad by using his spear on Ferdiad's ass... ... (Very similar to let's say Baldr's death or Achilles' death, but way more explicit on one or two things)&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;I don't know true example in Norse myth but, they are late enough. You find at least on example of Thor crossdressing with another bisexual figure Loki.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In China myth you find some spirits called Xian which are spirit animals generally male loving males human beings (aka men). you have such a story in the myth The Farmer and the Dragon where the dragon is falling in love with and old farmer.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In Japan you have one myth where the sun goddess Amateratsu is hiding in a cave and the goddess Ame is doing a strip tease to lure her out.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;You have such a strip tease example when Babylonian/Sumerian Goddess Ishtar/Innana visits the queen of Hel Ereshkigal and removes one part of her garment at each door (strip tease) finally standing naked and powerless in front of the Queen.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Contrary to let's say rape, homosexuality is rarely depicted as clearly. but reading between the line there is everywhere. I am far from being versed enough in other's myth to say more. But I am aware of the god Chin of the Mayan culture which is another example of a God encouraging relationship between young men. I remind one of those carved wall where you have two men kissing. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/mXDOb.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details/collection_image_gallery.aspx?partid=1&amp;assetid=231692001&amp;objectid=156237&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/texts/sasenet.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8235" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2001" RevisionGUID="65ae9a8b-3637-4da1-b353-0e020f0e4a9e" CreationDate="2016-09-22T10:34:00.373" UserId="2774" Text="You can find this [one][1], certainly not the best, but a good one, and as free as you like.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://buryatmongol.org/epic-of-king-gesar-translation-by-sarangerel-odigon-2/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8236" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2002" RevisionGUID="950e9c5e-180f-4808-b788-68d5258dbab8" CreationDate="2016-09-22T13:05:09.980" UserId="3015" Text="According to [Wikipedia][1], three spellings can be found for this mythical eagle/lion creature, and the source of the word is uncertain. Is it simply a case of different sources choosing their favorite spelling that led to three different spellings? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffin" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8237" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2002" RevisionGUID="950e9c5e-180f-4808-b788-68d5258dbab8" CreationDate="2016-09-22T13:05:09.980" UserId="3015" Text="Griffin, Griffon, or Gryphon?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8238" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2002" RevisionGUID="950e9c5e-180f-4808-b788-68d5258dbab8" CreationDate="2016-09-22T13:05:09.980" UserId="3015" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8242" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2003" RevisionGUID="cc1e710f-67b9-4729-9dbf-4560a8558004" CreationDate="2016-09-23T23:37:12.447" UserId="967" Text="Ok, remember this&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Gryphons/Griffins/Griffons are originally *greek.* It also doesn't really have a literal translation, so we go by the phonetics.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* I'll have to trust Wikipedia on this, but γρύφων is the greek word for the creature. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also looking on the [theoi][1] page for this, most English translators agree that it is in fact Grypes. (Since you tagged it greek)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Aeschylus* &quot;[Prometheus warns the wandering Io :] ‘But now listen to another and a fearsome spectacle. Beware of the sharp-beaked hounds of Zeus that do not bark, the **Grypes (Griffins)**, and the one-eyed (monôpoi) Arimaspoi (Arimaspians), mounted on horses, who dwell about the flood of Plouton's (Pluton's) stream that flows with gold. Do not approach them.’&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Aristophanes* &quot;Euripides : 'Twas all Skamandros (Scamander), moated camps, and **Grypaietoi (Griffin-Eagles)** flashing in burnished copper on the shields.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ok fine. Grypaietoi. Same thing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Herodotus* &quot;But in the north of Europe there is by far the most gold. In this matter again I cannot say with assurance how the gold is produced, but it is said that one-eyed men called Arimaspoi (Arimaspians) steal it from **Grypes (Griffins)**. The most outlying lands, though, as they enclose and wholly surround all the rest of the world, are likely to&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Ctesias* There is also gold [in India], not found in rivers and washed, as in the river Paktolos (Pactolus) [in Lydia], but in many large mountains which are inhabited by **Grypes (Griffins)**. These are four-footed birds as large as a wolf, their legs and claws resembling those of a lion; their breast feathers are red, those of the rest of the body black. Although there is abundance of gold in the mountains, it is difficult to get it because of these birds.&quot; have those things which we think the finest and the rarest.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Pausnias* &quot;**Grypas (Griffins)**, Aristeas of Prokonnesos says in his poem, fight for the gold with the Arimaspoi (Arimaspians) beyond the Issedones. The gold which the Grypas guard, he says, comes out of the earth; the Arimaspoi are men all born with one eye; Grypas are beasts like lions, but with the beak and wings of an eagle.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: There is an exerpt that he calles them Gryphoi. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;I have also heard that Gryphoi (Griffins) have spots like the leopard.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The rest of them are some variant of Grypes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, to go by *one* book (*Guide to Greece*) over many other sources is kinda unfair in my opinion, but to answer your question, its mostly just disagreeing on the phoenetics on the word Grypes. Or Gryphoi. They had not disagreed, mostly, on the spelling.&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Thaumasios/Grypes.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8243" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2002" RevisionGUID="67280f2d-651f-4cc5-b7be-fb5319bcfcb4" CreationDate="2016-09-23T23:37:49.980" UserId="967" Comment="deleted 22 characters in body; edited tags" Text="According to [Wikipedia][1], three spellings can be found for the Griffin, and the source of the word is uncertain. Is it simply a case of different sources choosing their favorite spelling that led to three different spellings? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffin" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8244" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2002" RevisionGUID="67280f2d-651f-4cc5-b7be-fb5319bcfcb4" CreationDate="2016-09-23T23:37:49.980" UserId="967" Comment="deleted 22 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8246" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2004" RevisionGUID="a33a3dee-01c6-4d98-ba28-18e8281a9d52" CreationDate="2016-09-24T20:05:07.243" UserId="57" Text="The Trojan princess [Cassandra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassandra) was cursed by Apollo that nobody would ever believe her. Apparently though, the curse wasn't completely effective: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; After Cassandra grew up, she again spent a night in the temple. This time the god appeared and tried to get her to yield to his desire, but she refused. For this affront to him he punished her by causing her prophecies, though true, to be disbelieved. This curse failed to be effective on only one occasion. When Paris appeared as an adult at the court of Priam, Cassandra declared him her brother. It had been accepted by everyone that he had died in infancy from being exposed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Women of Classical Mythology: A Biographical Dictionary, Robert E. Bell&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What was so special about that particular instance? Why did the Trojans believe Cassandra's recognition of Paris? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8247" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2004" RevisionGUID="a33a3dee-01c6-4d98-ba28-18e8281a9d52" CreationDate="2016-09-24T20:05:07.243" UserId="57" Text="Why did the Trojans believe Cassandra's recognition of Paris?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8248" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2004" RevisionGUID="a33a3dee-01c6-4d98-ba28-18e8281a9d52" CreationDate="2016-09-24T20:05:07.243" UserId="57" Text="|greek|apollo|trojan-war|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8249" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2005" RevisionGUID="4b874101-ad76-4eac-8e35-cf39032c24cf" CreationDate="2016-09-24T21:08:08.210" UserId="967" Text="So, the Gorgons had hairs of the snakes. Was it ever recorded what kind of snakes they were? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have a couple of quotes&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The spattered desert gave them life as snakes, smooth snakes of many kinds, and so that land still swarms with deadly serpents to this day.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Gorgones' heads were entwined with the horny scales of serpents, and they had big tusks like hogs, bronze hands, and wings of gold on which they flew.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Mopsos, stepping forward with his left foot, brought the sole down on the tip of the creature's tail, and in its pain the snake coiled round his shin and calf and bit him halfway up the leg tearing the flesh . . . The poor man was doomed. A paralysing numbness was already creeping through him, and a dark mist began to dim his sight. Unable to control his heavy limbs, he sank to the ground and soon was cold . . . Mopsos was dead; and they could not leave him in the sunshine even for a short time, for the poison at once began to rot his flesh and mouldering hair fell from his scalp.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can ya'll find the snake type? Or a quote that says so?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8250" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2005" RevisionGUID="4b874101-ad76-4eac-8e35-cf39032c24cf" CreationDate="2016-09-24T21:08:08.210" UserId="967" Text="What were the Gorgons' hair made of?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8251" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2005" RevisionGUID="4b874101-ad76-4eac-8e35-cf39032c24cf" CreationDate="2016-09-24T21:08:08.210" UserId="967" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8252" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="412" RevisionGUID="6274955b-5c09-4fb1-ba6d-43b11fbc7ea6" CreationDate="2016-09-24T21:11:19.290" UserId="3022" Comment="added appropriate tags" Text="|greek|athena|medusa|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8253" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="412" RevisionGUID="6274955b-5c09-4fb1-ba6d-43b11fbc7ea6" CreationDate="2016-09-24T21:11:19.290" Comment="Proposed by 3022 approved by -1 edit id of 370" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8254" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="412" RevisionGUID="88983b56-532b-4935-b231-1838312babff" CreationDate="2016-09-24T21:11:19.290" UserId="967" Comment="added appropriate tags" Text="|greek|athena|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8255" PostHistoryTypeId="9" PostId="412" RevisionGUID="77fa1479-2bfe-414f-a8bd-0012b9913854" CreationDate="2016-09-24T21:33:33.583" UserId="57" Comment="Rollback to [6274955b-5c09-4fb1-ba6d-43b11fbc7ea6]" Text="|greek|athena|medusa|" />
  <row Id="8256" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="256" RevisionGUID="45f68a4c-3691-42dd-89fd-8dc2d4766c19" CreationDate="2016-09-24T21:35:48.280" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|medusa|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8257" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1248" RevisionGUID="ef8301cd-7ca5-4e48-ba4a-015395112366" CreationDate="2016-09-24T21:36:02.997" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|medusa|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8258" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="155" RevisionGUID="e0b285b5-c745-4254-8d5a-e82b1ad911ee" CreationDate="2016-09-24T21:36:27.537" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|medusa|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8259" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="296" RevisionGUID="aae38ab1-31b0-46b8-b810-f0ff42ca11bb" CreationDate="2016-09-24T21:36:33.123" UserId="3022" Comment="added appropriate tag" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|medusa|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8260" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="296" RevisionGUID="aae38ab1-31b0-46b8-b810-f0ff42ca11bb" CreationDate="2016-09-24T21:36:33.123" Comment="Proposed by 3022 approved by 57 edit id of 368" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8261" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1817" RevisionGUID="d3f7e78e-1295-4311-a50f-db914880199b" CreationDate="2016-09-24T21:36:47.803" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|medusa|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8262" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2005" RevisionGUID="bcbe5147-94da-40ee-8c71-bfa39ee037db" CreationDate="2016-09-24T21:41:14.887" UserId="3022" Comment="Preciser title" Text="What kind of snakes were the Gorgons' hair made of?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8263" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2005" RevisionGUID="bcbe5147-94da-40ee-8c71-bfa39ee037db" CreationDate="2016-09-24T21:41:14.887" Comment="Proposed by 3022 approved by 967 edit id of 371" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8264" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2005" RevisionGUID="31c4be8e-940c-45c1-918b-446119fa5e22" CreationDate="2016-09-24T22:04:23.693" UserId="967" Comment="added 60 characters in body" Text="So, the Gorgons had hairs of the snakes. Was it ever recorded what kind of snakes they were? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have a couple of [quotes][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The spattered desert gave them life as snakes, smooth snakes of many kinds, and so that land still swarms with deadly serpents to this day.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Gorgones' heads were entwined with the horny scales of serpents, and they had big tusks like hogs, bronze hands, and wings of gold on which they flew.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Mopsos, stepping forward with his left foot, brought the sole down on the tip of the creature's tail, and in its pain the snake coiled round his shin and calf and bit him halfway up the leg tearing the flesh . . . The poor man was doomed. A paralysing numbness was already creeping through him, and a dark mist began to dim his sight. Unable to control his heavy limbs, he sank to the ground and soon was cold . . . Mopsos was dead; and they could not leave him in the sunshine even for a short time, for the poison at once began to rot his flesh and mouldering hair fell from his scalp.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can ya'll find the snake type? Or a quote that says so?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Gorgones.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8265" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2006" RevisionGUID="0126b962-0f3f-4d2f-9a2a-6f4a0cbd0c72" CreationDate="2016-09-24T22:13:32.290" UserId="3023" Text="There's no real agreement in the sources as to when the Kali Yuga started, though sometime around 3200 BCE seems to have the most support. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Historically, the texts that talk about Kali Yuga were written well after that time, so yes, all examples that we see of discussions of the Kali Yuga were written in that age. This also fits with the &quot;culture criticism&quot; view, in that those who discuss the Kali Yuga are often talking about the yuga in the context of how bad things are today.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So yes, it seems that the concept of the Kali Yuga was developed during that yuga." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8266" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2004" RevisionGUID="3a04b409-629a-4bc3-8e9e-a5b298dd239a" CreationDate="2016-09-24T22:57:23.637" UserId="57" Comment="added 1459 characters in body" Text="The Trojan princess [Cassandra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassandra) was cursed by Apollo that nobody would ever believe her. Apparently though, the curse wasn't completely effective: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; After Cassandra grew up, she again spent a night in the temple. This time the god appeared and tried to get her to yield to his desire, but she refused. For this affront to him he punished her by causing her prophecies, though true, to be disbelieved. This curse failed to be effective on only one occasion. When Paris appeared as an adult at the court of Priam, Cassandra declared him her brother. It had been accepted by everyone that he had died in infancy from being exposed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Women of Classical Mythology: A Biographical Dictionary, Robert E. Bell&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One version of Paris' return is told by Hyginus, in his Fabulae: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [91] XCI. ALEXANDER PARIS&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; After Priam, son of Laomedon, had had many children by Hecuba, daughter of Cisseus or of Dymas, his wife, again pregnant, in a dream saw herself giving birth to a glowing firebrand from which many serpents issued. When this vision was reported to all the seers, they bade her slay whatever child she should bear to avoid its being the ruin of the country. After Hecuba gave birth to Alexander, he was handed over to be killed, but the servants out of pity exposed him. Shepherds found the child, raised him as their own, and named him Paris. When he came to young manhood, he had a favorite bull. Servants sent by Priam to bring a bull to be given as prize in funeral games in Paris’ honor, came and started to lead off the bull of Paris. He followed them and asked them where they were leading him. They stated that they were taking him to Priam . . . [to be prize] for the victor in the funeral games of Alexander. He, out of fondness for the bull, went down and won everything, even over his own brothers. In anger Deiphobus drew his sword against him, but he leaped to the altar of Zeus Herceus. When Cassandra prophetically declared he was her brother, Priam acknowledged him and received him into the palace.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Myths of Hyginus, translated and edited by Mary Grant](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusFabulae1.html).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What was so special about that particular instance? Why did the Trojans believe Cassandra's recognition of Paris? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8267" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2007" RevisionGUID="212948b7-4f42-458c-ad3f-9ac6d9164f98" CreationDate="2016-09-25T00:38:30.997" UserId="57" Text="Most sources I know of simply use some form of &quot;ὄφις&quot; (snake) when describing Medusa or her sisters. That's not particularly helpful in identifying the species of the snakes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One source that uses a different word is Nonnus, who describes Medusa's head as &quot;εχιδνοκόμοιο&quot; (Dionysiaca Book 30, 264 ff). Now, this could be translated as &quot;viper hair&quot;, but could also be translated as &quot;serpentine hair&quot; or &quot;snake hair&quot;. I'm afraid that's the closest we can get to an answer, if we only rely on ancient sources.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If, however, we also take into account that vipers are the only endemic species of venomous snakes in Greece, I think it would be safe to say that the Gorgons' hair were made of vipers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8268" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2008" RevisionGUID="8e5deab7-c335-4c62-a5bf-3f49151e370a" CreationDate="2016-09-25T01:06:31.520" UserId="57" Text="Wikipedia claims:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A snake as a source of knowledge is a recurring theme in Greek mythology, though sometimes the snake brings understanding of the language of animals rather than an ability to know the future. Likewise, prophets without honor in their own country reflect a standard narrative trope&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cassandra&amp;oldid=735488426&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other than the myth of Cassandra, what other examples of snakes as a source of knowledge can be found in Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8269" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2008" RevisionGUID="8e5deab7-c335-4c62-a5bf-3f49151e370a" CreationDate="2016-09-25T01:06:31.520" UserId="57" Text="What are some examples of snakes as a source of knowledge?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8270" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2008" RevisionGUID="8e5deab7-c335-4c62-a5bf-3f49151e370a" CreationDate="2016-09-25T01:06:31.520" UserId="57" Text="|greek|symbolism|animals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8271" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2005" RevisionGUID="51c6a125-568b-4879-8d1d-c875e32c67a4" CreationDate="2016-09-25T11:27:43.633" UserId="3022" Comment="added an appropriate tag" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|medusa|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8272" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2005" RevisionGUID="51c6a125-568b-4879-8d1d-c875e32c67a4" CreationDate="2016-09-25T11:27:43.633" Comment="Proposed by 3022 approved by 57 edit id of 372" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8273" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2009" RevisionGUID="1b0fdd98-8bdf-4e52-a4e7-23d8757e4917" CreationDate="2016-09-25T20:45:55.280" UserId="967" Text="#[Melampus][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He told his servants to not kill two snakes, and he in turn learned the language of the Animals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;When Melampus lived with Neleus, he dwelt outside the town of Pylos, and before his house there stood an oak tree containing a serpent's nest. The old serpents were killed by his servants, and burnt by Melampus himself, who reared the young ones. One day, when they had grown up, and Melampus was asleep, they approached from both sides and cleaned his ears with their tongues. Being thus roused from his sleep, he started up, and to his surprise perceived that he now understood the language of birds, and that with their assistance he could foretell the future. In addition to this he acquired the power of prophesying, from the victims that were offered to the gods, and, after having had an interview with Apollo on the banks of the Alpheius, he became a most renowned soothsayer (Apollod. i. 9. § 11; Eustath. ad Hom. p. 1685). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Specifically from Apollodorus's *Library,*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Amythaon dwelt in Pylus and married Idomene, daughter of Pheres, and there were born to him two sons, Bias and Melampus. The latter lived in the country, and before his house there was an oak, in which there was a lair of snakes. His servants killed the snakes, but Melampus **gathered wood and burnt the reptiles, and reared the young ones. And when the young were full grown, they stood beside him at each of his shoulders as he slept, and they purged his ears with their tongues.** He started up in a great fright, but **understood the voices of the birds flying overhead, and from what he learned from them he foretold to men what should come to pass.** He acquired besides the art of taking the auspices, and having fallen in with Apollo at the Alpheus he was ever after an excellent soothsayer. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.mythindex.com/greek-mythology/M/Melampus.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8275" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2008" RevisionGUID="9df4fb83-7ab2-46f1-ab99-d25cdc231f9e" CreationDate="2016-09-26T07:04:10.963" UserId="57" Comment="added 157 characters in body" Text="Wikipedia claims:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A snake as a source of knowledge is a recurring theme in Greek mythology, though sometimes the snake brings understanding of the language of animals rather than an ability to know the future. Likewise, prophets without honor in their own country reflect a standard narrative trope&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cassandra&amp;oldid=735488426&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other than the myth of Cassandra, what other examples of snakes as a source of knowledge can be found in Greek mythology? I'm interested in examples featuring  actual snakes, not so much in mythical creatures with serpentine / draconian features like Python, the Delphi serpent." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8281" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1548" RevisionGUID="35fccf63-69ef-4d8d-9bc7-90403b03b799" CreationDate="2016-09-26T08:19:15.400" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 93 characters in body; edited title" Text="As we all know Greek gods were very lusty, and as a result produced several demigods. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does this happen in other mythologies as well? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8282" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1548" RevisionGUID="35fccf63-69ef-4d8d-9bc7-90403b03b799" CreationDate="2016-09-26T08:19:15.400" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 93 characters in body; edited title" Text="Which mythologies had demigods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8283" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2010" RevisionGUID="93e86ec7-f0c5-4df1-bf95-ac7c1f20eb71" CreationDate="2016-09-26T10:48:15.453" UserId="57" Text="In _Paradoseis_, Nikolaos Politis records the belief that a [vrykolakas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vrykolakas) cannot cross the sea. More specifically, tale 933 explains how the people of Myconos kept themselves safe from vrykolakes by burying them in the nearby uninhabited island of Baos. More or less the same story is repeated in tale 951 (also of Myconian origin) and in tale 952 (from Amorgos).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems the belief was quite widespread, several other small uninhabited islands appear as burying places for vrykolakes in local folklore. Some examples are: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Vrykolakonisia (&quot;islands of vrykolakes&quot;), near Skyros&#xD;&#xA;- Daimononisia (&quot;islands of demons&quot;) in the Northern Sporades&#xD;&#xA;- Tafos (&quot;tomb&quot;) islet, near Kefalonia&#xD;&#xA;- Panagia reef in Northern Evia&#xD;&#xA;- Islets Nekrothikes (&quot;cases of dead&quot;) and Plati-Pserimos, near Kalymnos&#xD;&#xA;- Hecate islet, near Delos&#xD;&#xA;- Kameni islet, near Santorini&#xD;&#xA;- Kalathas islet, near Chania&#xD;&#xA;- Venetiko islet, near Chios&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there an explanation for this? Why would vrykolakes be unable to cross the sea?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8284" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2010" RevisionGUID="93e86ec7-f0c5-4df1-bf95-ac7c1f20eb71" CreationDate="2016-09-26T10:48:15.453" UserId="57" Text="Why can't a vrykolakas cross the sea?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8285" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2010" RevisionGUID="93e86ec7-f0c5-4df1-bf95-ac7c1f20eb71" CreationDate="2016-09-26T10:48:15.453" UserId="57" Text="|greek|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8286" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2011" RevisionGUID="6aeb1855-afa5-4eca-88e0-1572e387acbd" CreationDate="2016-09-26T10:50:18.933" UserId="57" Text="Nikolaos Politis records at least five versions of the legend in his _Paradoseis_. Tales 551, 552 and 553 involve mermaids (γοργόνες), and tales 651 and 652 involve fairies (νεράϊδες). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his notes for the mermaid versions, Politis compares and paralles the legend with older ones, highlighting its relationship with the legends of the sirens, the gorgons, and the homeric Scylla. He also mentions that Hebraic versions of the tale exist, where king Solomon takes the place of Alexander. As for a source of the tales, Politis points to pseudo-Callisthenes, the unknown author of Alexander romance and mentions that a version of the tale can be found in a 13&lt;sup&gt;th&lt;/sup&gt; century Bulgarian version of the text.        &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately, Politis' original notes on the stories he collected end abruptly at tale 644. Thus, the only information we have about the mermaid versions are the tales themselves:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- In the first version (tale 651), Alexander and his sisters have discovered the fountain of youth. When the sisters bathe in the fountain's waters, they turn to fairies. Then, the sisters steal girls from nearby villages and turn them into slaves. The slaves attack passerbys, and can only be repeled if the victim utters the phrase &quot;Alexander lives and reigns&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The second version (tale 652) is shorter and has Alexander taking a fairy as a lover. For this, the fairies always remember Alexander with fondness, and will calm down bad weather if one utters the magic phrase thrice.      &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Brad L. Cook builds on Politis, and in _A Watery Folktale in the Alexander Romance: Alexander's Byzantine Neraïda_ asserts that the legend may have appeared as early as in the 5&lt;sup&gt;th&lt;/sup&gt; century:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Greek folktale, Alexander the Great has had a mermaid associated with him for millennia. When she first appeared in written form, between the fifth and eighth centuries A.D., Alexander’s mermaid was called a νεραΐδα, neraΐda (νεράϊδα, neráïda in Modern Greek), though she is now more often called a γοργόνα, gorgóna. Under either name in Greek folktales, she exhibits both a maleficent and a beneficent side when she stops ships at sea to ask: ζει ο βασιλιάς Αλέξανδρος; (Does King Alexander live?) If told yes, she is happy and sings for the sailors as they sail safely away; if told no, she sinks the ship in anger. &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8288" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2012" RevisionGUID="82059a37-d884-463d-bae8-b4467cb291f0" CreationDate="2016-09-26T19:44:16.690" UserId="2892" Text="@Bellerophon is correct.  In this case she was not prophesying.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_________________________________________________&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The point of her curse is this: think of how maddening it would be to know what's coming and everyone around you is in utter denial, no matter how plain the facts are.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who the hell thought it was a good idea to bring that Horse structure into the city?  Apparently, most Trojans.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8295" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2012" RevisionGUID="c87d5bb7-e172-4083-9077-44184aef80bb" CreationDate="2016-09-27T14:04:13.420" UserId="2892" Comment="Provided the quote from Hyginus and discussed the context of the Aeschylus.  When I get more time, I'll add more detail. " Text="@Bellerophon is correct.  In this case she was not prophesying the future.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;So Apollo brought it about that she should not be believed, though she gave true prophecies.&quot; -Hyginus, Fabulae&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reference from Aeschylus' Agamemnon is more ambiguous, although the part about not being believed is clearly related to the gift of prophecy.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_________________________________________________&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The point of her curse is this: think of how maddening it would be to know what's coming and everyone around you is in utter denial, no matter how plain the facts are.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who the hell thought it was a good idea to bring that Horse structure into the city?  Apparently, most Trojans.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8296" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2012" RevisionGUID="774a3ada-9447-4c06-8fe4-65595dbbdfea" CreationDate="2016-09-27T15:57:51.103" UserId="2892" Comment="I found the source text in Latin and have amended my answer to broaden the possible explanation." Text="@Bellerophon is likely correct.  In this case Alexandra was ***not*** prophesying the future.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyginus (Fabulae XCIII) states that &quot;Apollo brought it about that she should not be believed, though she gave true prophecies.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, Hyginus uses the verb &quot;[vaticinor][1]&quot; in both mentions, so we may have to look deeper.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first episode, where she identifies Alexandrus, comes in Fabulae XCI.  The second mention, where she is cursed by Apollo, comes in Fabulae XCIII.  **Thus is it possible that at the time of Alexandrus' return, Alexandra has not yet been cursed.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Note: I am using the alternate names of Paris and Cassandra, i.e. Alexandrus and Alexandra.]&#xD;&#xA;_________________________________________________&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The point of her curse is this: think of how maddening it would be to know what's coming and everyone around you is in utter denial, no matter how plain the facts are.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who the hell thought it was a good idea to bring that Horse structure into the city?  Apparently, most Trojans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vaticinor#Latin" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8297" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2012" RevisionGUID="9013d32c-9074-425c-8585-ba81c21e51a8" CreationDate="2016-09-27T16:03:43.780" UserId="2892" Comment="I found the source text in Latin and have amended my answer to broaden the possible explanation." Text="@Bellerophon'S answer is popularly believed to be correct.  In this case Cassandra was ***not*** prophesying the future.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyginus (Fabulae XCIII) states that &quot;Apollo brought it about that she should not be believed, though she gave true prophecies.&quot; *[&quot;ob quam rem Apollo fecit ut, cum vera vaticinaretur, fidem non haeret.&quot;]*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, Hyginus uses the verb &quot;[vaticinor](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vaticinor#Latin)&quot; in both mentions, so we may have to look deeper.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first episode, where she identifies Alexandrus, comes in Fabulae XCI.  The second mention, where she is cursed by Apollo, comes in Fabulae XCIII.  **Thus is it possible that at the time of Alexandrus' return, Cassandra has not yet been cursed.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*[Note: I am using the alternate name of Paris, i.e. Alexandrus, b/c Hyginus predominantly uses it. Cassandra was also known as &quot;Alexandra&quot;.]* &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8298" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2012" RevisionGUID="1f7bf796-8a05-4917-83bb-f2125f5052b5" CreationDate="2016-09-27T16:10:38.033" UserId="2892" Comment="Added the source text in Latin" Text="@Bellerophon'S answer is popularly believed to be correct.  In this case Cassandra was ***not*** prophesying the future.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyginus (Fabulae XCIII) states that &quot;Apollo brought it about that she should not be believed, though she gave true prophecies.&quot; *[&quot;ob quam rem Apollo fecit ut, cum vera vaticinaretur, fidem non haeret.&quot;]*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, Hyginus uses the verb &quot;[vaticinor](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vaticinor#Latin)&quot; in both mentions, *&quot;Quod cum Cassandra vaticinaretur eum fratrem esse, Priamus agnovit regiaque recepit&quot;* (Fabulae XCI) so we may have to look deeper.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first episode, where she identifies Alexandrus, comes in Fabulae XCI.  The second mention, where she is cursed by Apollo, comes in Fabulae XCIII.  **Thus is it possible that at the time of Alexandrus' return, Cassandra has not yet been cursed.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_______________________________________&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: I am using the alternate name of Paris, i.e. Alexandrus, b/c Hyginus predominantly uses it. Cassandra was also known as &quot;Alexandra&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8299" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2012" RevisionGUID="cfc8745a-7f60-4750-8254-828761c5721b" CreationDate="2016-09-27T16:30:56.297" UserId="2892" Comment="corrected a typo" Text="@Bellerophon's answer is popularly believed to be correct.  In this case Cassandra was ***not*** prophesying the future.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyginus (Fabulae XCIII) states that &quot;Apollo brought it about that she should not be believed, though she gave true prophecies.&quot; *[&quot;ob quam rem Apollo fecit ut, cum vera vaticinaretur, fidem non haeret.&quot;]*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, Hyginus uses the verb &quot;[vaticinor](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vaticinor#Latin)&quot; in both mentions, *&quot;Quod cum Cassandra vaticinaretur eum fratrem esse, Priamus agnovit regiaque recepit&quot;* (Fabulae XCI) so we may have to look deeper.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first episode, where she identifies Alexandrus, comes in Fabulae XCI.  The second mention, where she is cursed by Apollo, comes in Fabulae XCIII.  **Thus is it possible that at the time of Alexandrus' return, Cassandra has not yet been cursed.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_______________________________________&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: I am using the alternate name of Paris, i.e. Alexandrus, b/c Hyginus predominantly uses it. Cassandra was also known as &quot;Alexandra&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8300" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2012" RevisionGUID="16910226-b332-4ef2-b5d5-67fcd66a74a5" CreationDate="2016-09-27T16:37:30.553" UserId="2892" Comment="Further clarified the answer relating to temporality" Text="@Bellerophon's answer is popularly believed to be correct.  In this case Cassandra was ***not*** prophesying the future.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyginus (Fabulae XCIII) states that &quot;Apollo brought it about that she should not be believed, though she gave true prophecies.&quot; [*&quot;ob quam rem Apollo fecit ut, cum vera vaticinaretur, fidem non haeret.&quot;*]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, Hyginus uses the verb &quot;[vaticinor](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vaticinor#Latin)&quot; in both mentions, &quot;When Cassandra prophetically declared he was her brother, Priam acknowledged him and received him into the palace.&quot; [*&quot;Quod cum Cassandra vaticinaretur eum fratrem esse, Priamus agnovit regiaque recepit&quot;*] (Fabulae XCI) so we may have to look deeper.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first episode, where she identifies Alexandrus, comes in Fabulae XCI.  The second mention, where she is cursed by Apollo, comes in Fabulae XCIII.  Although temporal continuity is often violated in Classical mythology, and there is no mention as to the sequence of events in these two sections of Hyginus' work, **it is possible that at the time of Alexandrus' return, Cassandra has not yet been cursed.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_______________________________________&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: I am using the alternate name of Paris, i.e. Alexandrus, b/c Hyginus predominantly uses it. Cassandra was also known as &quot;Alexandra&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8302" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2008" RevisionGUID="1aadce86-d622-41e9-b779-d846aefafe6b" CreationDate="2016-09-27T21:55:23.293" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved formatting." Text="Wikipedia claims:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A snake as a source of knowledge is a recurring theme in Greek mythology, though sometimes the snake brings understanding of the language of animals rather than an ability to know the future. Likewise, prophets without honor in their own country reflect a standard narrative trope&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Cassandra (Wikipedia)](https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cassandra&amp;oldid=735488426&lt;/sub&gt;)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other than the myth of Cassandra, what other examples of snakes as a source of knowledge can be found in Greek mythology? I'm interested in examples featuring  actual snakes, not so much in mythical creatures with serpentine / draconian features like Python, the Delphi serpent." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8303" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2008" RevisionGUID="1aadce86-d622-41e9-b779-d846aefafe6b" CreationDate="2016-09-27T21:55:23.293" Comment="Proposed by 1241 approved by 398, 967 edit id of 373" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8305" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2008" RevisionGUID="378d6cb9-8f90-4bf8-9fa8-45ab2a3abac3" CreationDate="2016-09-28T00:14:59.707" UserId="183" Comment="Clarified the limits." Text="What are some examples of snakes as a source of knowledge in Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8307" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2012" RevisionGUID="10a80b76-869f-412e-8fa2-226b3756a071" CreationDate="2016-09-28T15:03:53.797" UserId="2892" Comment="Expanded the support of this explanation." Text="@Bellerophon's answer is popularly believed to be correct.  In this case Cassandra was ***not*** prophesying the future.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyginus (Fabulae XCIII) states that &quot;Apollo brought it about that she should not be believed, though she gave true prophecies.&quot; [*&quot;ob quam rem Apollo fecit ut, cum vera vaticinaretur, fidem non haeret.&quot;*]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, Hyginus uses the verb &quot;[vaticinor](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vaticinor#Latin)&quot; in both mentions, &quot;When Cassandra prophetically declared he was her brother, Priam acknowledged him and received him into the palace.&quot; [*&quot;Quod cum Cassandra vaticinaretur eum fratrem esse, Priamus agnovit regiaque recepit&quot;*] (Fabulae XCI) so we may have to look deeper.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first episode, where she identifies Alexandrus, comes in Fabulae XCI.  The second mention, where she is cursed by Apollo, comes in Fabulae XCIII.  Although temporal continuity is often violated in Classical mythology, and there is no mention as to the sequence of events in these two sections of Hyginus' work, **it is possible that at the time of Alexandrus' return, Cassandra has not yet been cursed.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further support for this explanation is that when Cassandra and her twin brother Helenus had their ears licked by Apollo's serpents in the temple they were infants or small children.  However, Apollo presumably would not have desired Cassandra sexually until she entered puberty, being female, so you have a window of about a decade where she has the gift of prophecy but not the curse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_______________________________________&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: I am using the alternate name of Paris, i.e. Alexandrus, b/c Hyginus predominantly uses it. Cassandra was also known as &quot;Alexandra&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8309" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2016" RevisionGUID="e5f414d7-2a9d-45eb-b2e8-93df7bda1225" CreationDate="2016-09-28T20:18:01.063" UserId="2892" Text="It's something I've been thinking about for many years now and I figured I might as well ask, as there seems to be an exceptional Norse mythology braintrust on this site.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------&#xD;&#xA;By &quot;obvious&quot; parallels, I am referring to a giant with a bovine companion the color of glacial ice.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8310" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2016" RevisionGUID="e5f414d7-2a9d-45eb-b2e8-93df7bda1225" CreationDate="2016-09-28T20:18:01.063" UserId="2892" Text="Are there parallels between Ymir/Auðumbla and Paul Bunyan and Babe the Blue Ox besides the obvious?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8311" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2016" RevisionGUID="e5f414d7-2a9d-45eb-b2e8-93df7bda1225" CreationDate="2016-09-28T20:18:01.063" UserId="2892" Text="|norse|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8312" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2016" RevisionGUID="108fc169-f2a1-4656-9e66-ee1cc6d5ea4d" CreationDate="2016-09-28T22:47:42.617" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|comparative|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8313" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2017" RevisionGUID="7946a051-6cf7-48ec-aab2-c494b0f74e35" CreationDate="2016-09-29T01:28:08.453" UserId="292" Text="In a sense - but while Bunyan and Babe actively change the landscape, Ymir is chopped up by others (Odin &amp; Co) to make the world. Both Bunyand and Ymir are associated with cold - PB with the &quot;[blue winter][1]&quot; in North Dakota, while Ymir was the first frost-giant. ([Prose Edda][2] 18)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Bunyan&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre04.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8314" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2018" RevisionGUID="a0936146-f485-4577-91d9-d9d6bdea0d22" CreationDate="2016-09-30T21:12:08.933" UserId="3044" Text="Athena probably wouldn't have been turned to stone from Medusa's head since Athena was the one who cursed Medusa to look like that in the first place using her own power. Like if someone tried to use Zeus's thunderbolts against him; I don't think it would work since they are his." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8315" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1013" RevisionGUID="52f615ac-d08b-4faf-a659-4081d52bd8b2" CreationDate="2016-10-01T14:22:18.827" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|prose-edda|translation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8316" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1013" RevisionGUID="52f615ac-d08b-4faf-a659-4081d52bd8b2" CreationDate="2016-10-01T14:22:18.827" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="This question is [cross-posted at hu.wikipedia][w] where it's also on-topic, because that site has some mythology enthusiasts. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Does the Prose Edda have a translation to Hungarian?**  If it does, please give any details you know and availability of the volume it was published in.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know that it has translations to at least English, French, German, Norwegian, and Finnish.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Prose Edda is not the same as Poetic Edda, but a later work.  The Poetic Edda does have at least one Hungarian translation by Tandori Dezső, of which [the main text is available online at MEK][t].  The online copy does not appear to contain the Prose Edda.  (Correct me if I'm wrong here.)  I shall still look at translations of the Poetic Edda (there's at least two different books, one containing this translation, and one containing an unknown translation), both for its own right and because maybe they do contain or refer me to a translation of the Prose Edda.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[w]: https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Tudakoz%C3%B3#Pr.C3.B3zai_Edda_magyar_ford.C3.ADt.C3.A1sa&#xD;&#xA;[t]: http://mek.oszk.hu/00300/00377/&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8317" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1184" RevisionGUID="7a373a54-f065-4b48-b976-fb6605aa34fb" CreationDate="2016-10-01T14:23:02.203" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|kalevala|translation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8318" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="661" RevisionGUID="b785d98b-9b28-4ee2-b0e6-5f5400792415" CreationDate="2016-10-01T14:23:11.903" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|roman|odyssey|iliad|translation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8319" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1975" RevisionGUID="5ded5d80-822f-4820-bdea-11e954c49880" CreationDate="2016-10-01T14:24:24.320" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|translation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8320" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1308" RevisionGUID="5efee5b3-8fbb-43e8-b710-f8547a39fce6" CreationDate="2016-10-01T14:25:48.007" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|prose-edda|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8321" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2017" RevisionGUID="d68a5f73-bb58-4af5-a2f5-4f951a61d304" CreationDate="2016-10-01T20:56:31.950" UserId="292" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="In a sense - but while Bunyan and Babe actively change the landscape, Ymir is chopped up by others (Odin &amp; Co) to make the world. Both Bunyan and Ymir are associated with cold - PB with the &quot;[blue winter][1]&quot; in North Dakota, while Ymir was the first frost-giant. ([Prose Edda][2] 18)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Bunyan&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre04.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8325" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1013" RevisionGUID="e5d710e9-908a-498d-900f-b1362d17902a" CreationDate="2016-10-02T19:50:10.560" UserId="197" Comment="added 25 characters in body" Text="This question is [cross-posted at hu.wikipedia][w] where it's also on-topic, because that site has some mythology enthusiasts. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Does the Prose Edda have a translation to Hungarian?**  If it does, please give any details you know and availability of the volume it was published in.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know that it has translations to at least English, French, German, Norwegian, and Finnish.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Prose Edda is not the same as Poetic Edda, but a later work.  The Poetic Edda does have at least one Hungarian translation by Tandori Dezső, of which [the main text is available online at MEK][t].  The online copy does not appear to contain the Prose Edda.  (Correct me if I'm wrong here.)  I shall still look at translations of the Poetic Edda (there's at least two different books, one containing this translation, and one containing an unknown translation), both for its own right and because maybe they do contain or refer me to a translation of the Prose Edda.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[w]: https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Tudakoz%C3%B3/Arch%C3%ADvum/2015-07-12#Pr.C3.B3zai_Edda_magyar_ford.C3.ADt.C3.A1sa&#xD;&#xA;[t]: http://mek.oszk.hu/00300/00377/&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8326" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="2010" RevisionGUID="1c5ce3bc-3c76-4c38-a652-bb1b4814fc44" CreationDate="2016-10-06T03:27:32.543" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="30" />
  <row Id="8327" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2019" RevisionGUID="5a7bd011-b06b-4b12-994b-0e10748c683d" CreationDate="2016-10-06T09:08:44.647" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="I am looking for a story on a goddess who married a monster.I remember reading the story a few years ago but I can't seem to remember it.In the story,a goddess marries a monster in order to stop him from being evil and terrorising people and be good instead.The goddess in the story is an Asian one,who is either from an Indian,Korean,Japanese or Chinese mythology (e.g. Buddhism,Taoism).I'm not sure what the monster was though,but I am preety sure it was either a king or a dragon.It possibly might have been both.Does anybody recognize the myth? Can you give me more info on the goddess and the monster , and a source where it is recorded?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8328" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2019" RevisionGUID="5a7bd011-b06b-4b12-994b-0e10748c683d" CreationDate="2016-10-06T09:08:44.647" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Is there a story on a goddess marrying a monster?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8329" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2019" RevisionGUID="5a7bd011-b06b-4b12-994b-0e10748c683d" CreationDate="2016-10-06T09:08:44.647" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="|mythical-creatures|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8330" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2020" RevisionGUID="163ae689-4a49-4909-ad0a-b88677359aa3" CreationDate="2016-10-06T12:15:18.703" UserId="2774" Text="High chance is your are referring to something as the Hittite goddess Sauska  (šauška it should be pronounced Chauchka as the š are showing). You can find her under the name Anzili as well. First Sauska is a kind of counterpart of a love/fertility/war goddess that are the Sumerian Inanna, the Babylonian Ishtar, the Egyptian Isis, the Greek Athena. She is both incredibly gorgeous and she kicks ass...&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;She appears in one story the song of Hedammu which is part of the great cycle of Kumarbi. Kumarbi is the equivalent of Sumerian Enlil, Greek Chronos. After fighting his father Anu (the Sumerian An, Greek Ouranous) the new God generation rebel against him, especially Teshub/Tessub/Tešub (Zeus/Thor... see him with his thunderbolts and axe here!!)&lt;BR&gt;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Teshub is the son he got by biting Anu's sex and spitting him. (Compare with Chronos castrating Ouranos and eating his children until Zeus is not eaten before finally spitting the Olympians...)&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Kumarbi sent 2 monsters to kick the but of the new Gods:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Hedammu which will be overthrown by Sauska&#xD;&#xA; - Ullikummi, the Greek Typhoeus, because noticing how Sauska has enticed Hedammu he sent a monster that Sauska cannot seduce. The main difference here being that Ullikumi is sent directly by Kumarbi/Chronos and not Gaia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The song of Hedammu goes like that. Kumarbi is displeased by Teshub and tries to overthrown him. Teshub plays a minor role here. It is Sauska (you can find her as Anzili in the story... As my hittite is badly bad I rely on translation, some her put Anzili, other Sauska, I don't know why) who sees Hedammu and the potential danger. I will give some translations, with explanations. Beware those are Hittite translations and they are incredibly fragmentary. Translation I am giving are from Hoffner's book [Hittite myths][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Great Sea God began to reply to Kumarbi: &quot;Our matter is settled,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kumarbi, Father of the Gods. Come to my house in 7 days, and I will&#xD;&#xA;&gt; give you Sertapsuruhi, my daughter&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After they mate, Sertapsuruhi and Kumarbi has a son (probably that part is missing, but we can safely guess) Hedammu with is a voracious dragon/snake. After some discussions between Teshub and Sauska here is what happens (beware the erotic text):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sasuska went to the bath house. The queen of Nineveh went there to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wash herself. She washed herself... She anointed herself with fine&#xD;&#xA;&gt; perfumed oil. She adorned herself. And (...) love ran after her like&#xD;&#xA;&gt; puppies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I invite you to compare this text with most Sumerian text with Inanna, especially her love component when she &quot;plays the brat&quot; while taking all the care in the world to anoint herself. Nineveh was the Assyrian capital, land of king Ashurbanipal. Now:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sauska began to say to Kulitta: Take an arkammi instrument, take a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; galgalturi instrument. At sea on the right, play the arkammi, on the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; left play the galgalturi... Perhaps Hedammu will hear our message.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Compare that with Japanese's Amateratsu seduction with she is hiding in a cave. Kulitta is the Hittite goddess of music, generally associated with Ishtar, she often plays to entice Tammuz (The sumerian Dumuzid).&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now we have this part (very fragmentary):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hedammu raised his head from the watery deep. He spied Sauska. Sauska&#xD;&#xA;&gt; held her naked members before Hedammu. Hedammu began to speak the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; words to Sauska: &quot;What deity are you? (that you are not afraid of me)&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After that a pretty long extremely fragmentary part appears where Sauska keeps taunting Hedammu (in the sexual sense, keeping somehow stripping herself, even if it is quite unclear) while Hedammu is always amazed she does not flee in terror. Finally they have sex which seems to render the poor Hedammu totally none valiant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sauska, Queen of Nineveh, (...) came down to Hedammu and, Sauska,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; walked before him. (...) The valiant Hedammu came down from his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; throne, from the sea. He came onto the dry land.&#xD;&#xA;I try to keep the translation as fluid as possible (go to the original to see what I did) and keep the most sexual part out. But you see here the Goddess of love/war at work. In the subsequent story where  Teshub will fight Ullikummi, Kumarbi learnt his lesson and take care Ullikumi cannot be seduced by Sauska. We see Sauska coming back trying the same method but miserably failing. But this is vainly because Teshub will finally overcome him (I don't give the detail).&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Notice that Sauska/Inanna/Ishtar/Isis/Athena still exists in modern world as Lara Croft or Wonder Woman or such heroines. Woman mixing beauty and fighting ability. Notice also most of those modern females are never representing adorning themselves with great care to win battle with their sexual nature.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Note that on a historical plan the story of Anu taking down Alul, before being taken down by Kumarbi which will be beaten by Teshub is reminiscent of the Mesopotamian history when Sumerian was replaced by Babylonian which are replaced by Assyrian, which are replaced by Neo Babylonian, before vanishing in the persian empire, with the specific God An, Enlil, Marduk, Teshub becoming the main god.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Not sure that was not exactly the story you described but that answer plainly to you. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/IfEI0.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.amazon.com/Hittite-Myths-Second-Harry-Hoffner/dp/0788504886" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8331" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2020" RevisionGUID="874975e2-9a6d-4ee5-aa43-978f56bf5aaa" CreationDate="2016-10-06T12:23:41.123" UserId="2774" Comment="Small edits" Text="High chance is your are referring to something as the Hittite goddess Sauska  (šauška it should be pronounced Chauchka as the š are showing). You can find her under the name Anzili as well. First Sauska is a kind of counterpart of a love/fertility/war goddess that are the Sumerian Inanna, the Babylonian Ishtar, the Egyptian Isis, the Greek Athena. She is both incredibly gorgeous and she kicks ass...&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;She appears in one story the song of Hedammu which is part of the great cycle of Kumarbi. Kumarbi is the equivalent of Sumerian Enlil, Greek Chronos. After fighting his father Anu (the Sumerian An, Greek Ouranous) the new God generation rebel against him, especially Teshub/Tessub/Tešub (Zeus/Thor... see him with his thunderbolts and axe here!!)&lt;BR&gt;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Teshub is the son he got by biting Anu's sex and spitting him. (Compare with Chronos castrating Ouranos and eating his children until Zeus is not eaten before finally spitting the Olympians...)&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Kumarbi sent 2 monsters to kick the but of the new Gods:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Hedammu which will be overthrown by Sauska&#xD;&#xA; - Ullikummi, the Greek Typhoeus, because noticing how Sauska has enticed Hedammu he sent a monster that Sauska cannot seduce. The main difference here being that Ullikumi is sent directly by Kumarbi/Chronos and not Gaia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The song of Hedammu goes like that. Kumarbi is displeased by Teshub and tries to overthrown him. Teshub plays a minor role here. It is Sauska (you can find her as Anzili in the story... As my hittite is badly bad I rely on translation, some her put Anzili, other Sauska, I don't know why) who sees Hedammu and the potential danger. I will give some translations, with explanations. Beware those are Hittite translations and they are incredibly fragmentary. Translation I am giving are from Hoffner's book [Hittite myths][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Great Sea God began to reply to Kumarbi: &quot;Our matter is settled,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kumarbi, Father of the Gods. Come to my house in 7 days, and I will&#xD;&#xA;&gt; give you Sertapsuruhi, my daughter&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After they mate, Sertapsuruhi and Kumarbi has a son (probably that part is missing, but we can safely guess) Hedammu with is a voracious dragon/snake. After some discussions between Teshub and Sauska here is what happens (beware the erotic text):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sasuska went to the bath house. The queen of Nineveh went there to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wash herself. She washed herself... She anointed herself with fine&#xD;&#xA;&gt; perfumed oil. She adorned herself. And (...) love ran after her like&#xD;&#xA;&gt; puppies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I invite you to compare this text with most Sumerian text with Inanna, especially her love component when she &quot;plays the brat&quot; while taking all the care in the world to anoint herself. Nineveh was the Assyrian capital, land of king Ashurbanipal. Now:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sauska began to say to Kulitta: Take an arkammi instrument, take a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; galgalturi instrument. At sea on the right, play the arkammi, on the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; left play the galgalturi... Perhaps Hedammu will hear our message.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Compare that with Japanese's Amateratsu seduction with she is hiding in a cave. Kulitta is the Hittite goddess of music, generally associated with Ishtar, she often plays to entice Tammuz (The sumerian Dumuzid).&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now we have this part (very fragmentary):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hedammu raised his head from the watery deep. He spied Sauska. Sauska&#xD;&#xA;&gt; held her naked members before Hedammu. Hedammu began to speak the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; words to Sauska: &quot;What deity are you? (that you are not afraid of me)&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After that a pretty long extremely fragmentary part appears where Sauska keeps taunting Hedammu (in the sexual sense, keeping somehow stripping herself, even if it is quite unclear) while Hedammu is always amazed she does not flee in terror. Finally they have sex which seems to render the poor Hedammu totally none valiant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sauska, Queen of Nineveh, (...) came down to Hedammu and, Sauska,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; walked before him. (...) The valiant Hedammu came down from his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; throne, from the sea. He came onto the dry land.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I try to keep the translation as fluid as possible (go to the original to see what I did) and keep the most sexual part out. But you see here the Goddess of love/war at work. In the subsequent story where  Teshub will fight Ullikummi, Kumarbi learnt his lesson and take care Ullikumi cannot be seduced by Sauska. We see Sauska coming back trying the same method but miserably failing. But this is vainly because Teshub will finally overcome him (I don't give the detail).&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Notice that Sauska/Inanna/Ishtar/Isis/Athena still exists in modern world as Lara Croft or Wonder Woman or such heroines. Woman mixing beauty and fighting ability. Notice also most of those modern females are never representing adorning themselves with great care to win battle with their sexual nature.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Note that on a historical plan the story of Anu taking down Alul, before being taken down by Kumarbi which will be beaten by Teshub is reminiscent of the Mesopotamian history when Sumerian was replaced by Babylonian which are replaced by Assyrian, which are replaced by Neo Babylonian, before vanishing in the persian empire, with the specific God An, Enlil, Marduk, Teshub becoming the main god.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Modern Wiccan still use Sauska, for what I know. And modern Indian Chhathi Maya is very obvious port from Inanna/Ishtar/Sauska. There was an old TV show with Ishtar as a main character. And Athena is popular enough nowaday, for example as Percy Jackson's love affair mother Annabeth Chase or the main Goddess in Saint Seiya.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Not sure that was not exactly the story you described but that answer plainly to you. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/IfEI0.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.amazon.com/Hittite-Myths-Second-Harry-Hoffner/dp/0788504886" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8332" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1525" RevisionGUID="e887ecbb-28d1-4598-a142-e1d19aa97b49" CreationDate="2016-10-06T18:52:56.510" UserId="57" Comment="edited body" Text="Poseidon may well have been a chief god in some particular places. This would have been in the Mycenaean period, when Poseidon had [important cults][1] at Pylos and Thebes. Also, on the [Linear B tablets][2] his name is more common than Zeus', along with a feminine variant that was probably his spouse. Other tablets record offerings to Poseidon and the [Two Queens][2] (assumed to be Demeter and Persephone).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.ca/books?id=sxurBtx6shoC&amp;q=Poseidon#v=snippet&amp;q=Poseidon&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poseidon" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8333" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2021" RevisionGUID="c29f0477-1e82-4bbe-8714-b39200f9f888" CreationDate="2016-10-06T21:50:44.560" UserId="2892" Text="I suspect you're referring to [Benzaiten](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzaiten), a Buddhist and Shinto Goddess. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The linked Encyclopedia Britannica article mentions to her marriage to the dragon, and Britannica is generally considered a reputable source, however they don't provide citations, at least for this online article, so you may want to seek out the source material on your own to verify.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This site](http://www.orderwhitemoon.org/goddess/benzaiten/index.html) says: &quot;A dragon once ravaged a village in Kanagawa. Benzaiten swooped down from heaven and engaged the dragon. She agreed to marry him, and by her influence, the dragon ceased his wicked ways, and peace returned to the region. The island of Enoshima rose up in the place in which the dragon's lair once rested.&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This comes with a big caveat that the references on that website are *not* reliable.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, my inclination is to trust [this source](http://www.discover-fujisawa.jp/about/): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**&quot;The Legend of the Goddess and the 5-Headed Dragon&quot;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Long ago there lived a 5-headed dragon. The dragon demanded sacrifices be made to him, caused floods, and rained down fire, committing one wicked act after another. In the year 552, the Heavens and the Earth suddenly began to shake and a goddess appeared above the clouds. Gradually, the clouds gave way to sunlight, and Enoshima was born. The Dragon immediately fell in love, and asked for the goddess' hand in marriage, but knowing of the wicked acts the Dragon had committed, the Goddess refused. Not prepared to give up, the Dragon vowed to mend his ways, and so the goddess (known as Benzaiten) agreed to marry him. On the shore opposite Enoshima lies &quot;Dragon's Mouth Mountain&quot;. The Dragon turned into the mountain so as to watch over the goddess, even after death, and it is said that the Dragon still keeps watch over Enoshima today. Due to &quot;The Legend of the Goddess and the 5-Headed Dragon&quot;, Enoshima is today famous as a spiritual site for marriage.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;*Note: If I get a chance to get my hands on some vetted source material for Japanese mythology, I'll return and make citations.  In the meantime, I hope this answer is helpful.*&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8334" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2022" RevisionGUID="00d1c999-54e1-48ef-928f-49d6034959b9" CreationDate="2016-10-07T03:06:31.610" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="While reading on Taoism,I came across some people who became immortal through a variety of ways.Right now,some I remember are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1)White Peony successfully made Lü Dongbin ejaculate and absorbed his Yang essence. Later she cultivated herself and became immortal as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2)Some people eat the Peaches Of Immortality and become immortal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3)Nezha was brought back to life by his teacher, Taiyi Zhenren, who used lotus roots to construct a human body for his soul.His reincarnation somehow turned out to be immortal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4)The Jade Emperor reached his status by cultivating Tao on the Bright and Fragrant Cliff for a long period of time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What are all the ways to become immortal?Also,what is *cultivating* Tao and yourself?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8335" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2022" RevisionGUID="00d1c999-54e1-48ef-928f-49d6034959b9" CreationDate="2016-10-07T03:06:31.610" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="How do people become immortal as per Taoism?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8336" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2022" RevisionGUID="00d1c999-54e1-48ef-928f-49d6034959b9" CreationDate="2016-10-07T03:06:31.610" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="|chinese|immortality|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8337" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1519" RevisionGUID="a5f184b2-8af9-4f58-a4b3-466c8344a143" CreationDate="2016-10-07T06:57:21.940" UserId="2892" Comment="Corrected some typos and replaced &quot;giants&quot; with Cyclopes" Text="Zeus, for the most part, seems to be represented as the head of the gods in most cases. For example:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - He was the only one not eaten by Kronos, and managed to save his siblings&#xD;&#xA; - He was ruler of Olympus, home of the gods&#xD;&#xA; - Many of the heroes and kings mentioned in mythology are his children. This would include Perseus, Tantalus, Minos, etc (see the wikipedia page for Zeus for more). In fact, four of the twelve gods of Olympus are his children- Athena, Hephaestus, Ares, and Dionysus.&#xD;&#xA; - Being ruler of the sky pretty much cinches him as the ruler. In ancient Greece, the sky was always above you, huge, unreachable, and full of mysterious powers they didn't understand. It would make sense if their chief deity was the controller of all that.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;BUT&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although Zeus is generally portrayed as king god, remember, there is no &quot;set in stone&quot; version of the myth. Since the Bronze Age, they were generally told orally from one person to another, each embellishing and carving it to their own liking. The version of the myths as most people today know them were described (and, importantly, written down) by authors such as Ovid, Homer,and Hesiod. While it is likely that their version of the myths was similar to everyone else's, there is no reason to believe that everything had to be exactly as we know it. A lot can change in a few thousand years! Sure, something like &quot;who's chief of the gods&quot; is a mighty big thing to change, but as you mentioned, it would actually make sense for Poseidon to be the chief deity, even if Zeus was technically king. Here's why:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The Greeks (and the Romans, too, for that matter) lived on the Mediterranean. A map of their world looked something like this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/mRvKN.png&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most of their world, if you notice, was ocean, or more specifically, Oceanus, the personification of the sea that supposedly surrounded the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - For the most part, Greece was a bunch of islands with some annoying mountains here and there. The sea was a huge part of their lives, whether they wanted it to be or not.&#xD;&#xA; - In fact, the sea would probably be as mysterious as the sky to them. They wouldn't know about currents, or how storms worked, or about how come there were tides. There's only so much land-based weather could do the Greeks. They are not really in a region prone to tornadoes or anything like that. However, storms on the ocean were probably more or less normal- and much more powerful.&#xD;&#xA; - And who ruled over this massive, dangerous, all-powerful sea? Poseidon. As if that wasn't enough, he was also given the title of Earthshaker, attributing even more power and destruction to him.&#xD;&#xA; - Much like Zeus, many of his children were significant in mythology, including Bellerophon, Charybdis, and Proteus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From all this, it would make sense that the ancient people favored Poseidon over Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that I didn't mention the trident. That's because during a battle the Cyclopes gave each of the three elder gods a gift. Poseidon got his trident, Hades got the helmet of darkness which can  make him disappear, and Zeus was given the lightning bolt. So they each got something to show their power and Poseidon's trident had nothing to do with it." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8338" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1519" RevisionGUID="a5f184b2-8af9-4f58-a4b3-466c8344a143" CreationDate="2016-10-07T06:57:21.940" Comment="Proposed by 2892 approved by 967, 111 edit id of 374" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8339" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2022" RevisionGUID="a39b7eb0-243c-4175-9245-0adaea67db59" CreationDate="2016-10-07T08:57:38.333" UserId="57" Comment="added 9 characters in body" Text="While reading on Taoism, I came across some people who became immortal through a variety of ways. Right now, some I remember are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. White Peony successfully made Lü Dongbin ejaculate and absorbed his Yang essence. Later she cultivated herself and became immortal as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. Some people eat the Peaches Of Immortality and become immortal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. Nezha was brought back to life by his teacher, Taiyi Zhenren, who used lotus roots to construct a human body for his soul. His reincarnation somehow turned out to be immortal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. The Jade Emperor reached his status by cultivating Tao on the Bright and Fragrant Cliff for a long period of time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What are all the ways to become immortal? Also, what is *cultivating* Tao and yourself?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8340" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2023" RevisionGUID="0a88fe1b-050d-49f6-b1bb-a5f37c88b25c" CreationDate="2016-10-07T20:33:22.717" UserId="2892" Text="Sun Wukong used multiple methods.  These included gobbling up a bunch of Laozi's elixer pills, gobbling down all of the magic peaches before the big banquet he wasn't invited to, and slugging down all of the Jade Emperor's wine. *(Although he was sort of an immortal before all that, having been born from a magic stone representing the merger of Heaven and Earth, and having cultivated his essence under the tutelage of an immortal who, wisely, declined to give his name...)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All of the Demons he fights on his famous Journey, not having access to Heaven, seem to prefer the method of eating the Tang Priest, Xuanzang, who himself is an incarnation of the Golden Cicada. *(Rumor had it that to eat the flesh of the Tang Priest would make one exceptionally immortal.)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also another episode in which there is a Monastery with a tree that produces fruit that looks like human babies.  (The fruits have different potencies based on how many thousands of years they require to ripen.)  If memory serves, Sun Wukong gobbled down a bunch of these as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can validate all of this on Wikipedia, although I highly recommend reading an unabridged translation of &quot;Journey to the West&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of an exhaustive list of methods of achieving immortality in Chinese mythology, that would probably be worthy of a thesis." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8341" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2023" RevisionGUID="edfb8565-1fba-4f6e-95ea-c78adf2ccc73" CreationDate="2016-10-07T21:13:44.510" UserId="2892" Comment="Added more detail on the second part of the question" Text="Sun Wukong used multiple methods.  These included gobbling up a bunch of Laozi's elixer pills, gobbling down all of the magic peaches before the big banquet he wasn't invited to, and slugging down all of the Jade Emperor's wine. *(Although he was sort of an immortal before all that, having been born from a magic stone representing the merger of Heaven and Earth, and having cultivated his essence under the tutelage of an immortal who, wisely, declined to give his name...)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All of the Demons he fights on his famous Journey, not having access to Heaven, seem to prefer the method of eating the Tang Priest, Xuanzang, who himself is an incarnation of the Golden Cicada. *(Rumor had it that to eat the flesh of the Tang Priest would make one exceptionally immortal.)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also another episode in which there is a Monastery with a tree that produces fruit that looks like human babies.  (The fruits have different potencies based on how many thousands of years they require to ripen.)  If memory serves, Sun Wukong gobbled down a bunch of these as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can validate all of this on Wikipedia, although I highly recommend reading an unabridged translation of &quot;Journey to the West&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;________________________________________________________&#xD;&#xA;In terms of an exhaustive list of methods of achieving immortality in Chinese mythology, that would probably be worthy of a thesis.  Although the textual sources for Chinese Mythology are somewhat limited, the task would likely also entail delving into the rich, oral tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of cultivation of the Tao, this can have many meanings.  Most modern seekers seem to utilize Chi Gong and Tai Chi (which can be understood as a form of Chi Gong with more practical application), but it also involves the concept sometimes known as &quot;right action&quot; as it relates to conduct.  (There is definitely confluence of Buddhist and Confucian ideas in regards to these concepts, with the latter almost certainly exerting the greatest influence.  Master Kong was more concerned with matters involving humanity (&quot;ren&quot;) and filial piety, while Taoists tend to emphasizes acting in accordance with nature.  The idea of physical immortality is somewhat archaic at this point, although there are definitely still some folks out there who subscribe to it;) &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8342" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2023" RevisionGUID="c041c9e1-0d14-465a-9354-3e87d7487c64" CreationDate="2016-10-07T21:23:59.260" UserId="2892" Comment="Added more detail on the second part of the question" Text="Sun Wukong used multiple methods.  These included gobbling up a bunch of Laozi's elixer pills, gobbling down all of the magic peaches before the big banquet he wasn't invited to, and slugging down all of the Jade Emperor's wine. *(Although he was sort of an immortal before all that, having been born from a magic stone representing the merger of Heaven and Earth, and having cultivated his essence under the tutelage of an immortal who, wisely, declined to give his name...)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All of the Demons he fights on his famous Journey, not having access to Heaven, seem to prefer the method of eating the Tang Priest, Xuanzang, who himself is an incarnation of the Golden Cicada. *(Rumor had it that to eat the flesh of the Tang Priest would make one exceptionally immortal.)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also another episode in which there is a Monastery with a tree that produces fruit that looks like human babies.  (The fruits have different potencies based on how many thousands of years they require to ripen.)  If memory serves, Sun Wukong gobbled down a bunch of these as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can validate all of this on Wikipedia, although I highly recommend reading an unabridged translation of &quot;Journey to the West&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;________________________________________________________&#xD;&#xA;In terms of an exhaustive list of methods of achieving immortality, that would probably be worthy of a thesis.  Although the textual sources for Chinese Mythology are somewhat limited, the task would likely also entail delving into a rich, oral tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of cultivation of the Tao, this can have many meanings.  Most modern seekers seem to utilize Chi Gong and Tai Chi (which can be understood as a form of Chi Gong with more practical application), but it also involves the concept sometimes known as &quot;right action&quot; as it relates to conduct.  (There is definitely confluence of Buddhist and Confucian ideas in regards to these concepts, with the latter almost certainly exerting the greatest influence.  Master Kong was more concerned with matters involving humanity (&quot;ren&quot;) and filial piety, while Taoists tend to emphasize acting in accordance with nature.  The idea of physical immortality is somewhat archaic at this point, although there are definitely still some folks out there who subscribe to it;) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the most simple, modern terms, cultivation of the self and of the Tao can be understood as striving each day to be a better you, seeking balance and practicing moderation in all things. (This is similar to the Buddhist &quot;middle way&quot;, but comes with the caveat that Taoists may sometimes seek extremes for various reasons, usually having to do with cultivating martial or magical power.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is also notable that Taoist practitioners, in popular culture, tend to reject wealth and worldly status, and these aspecta can be observed in Kungfu films and Wuxia novels.  (The legendary film director King Hu directly commented on many of these subjects in numerous films, including &quot;A Touch of Zen&quot;, &quot;Dragongate Inn&quot;, &quot;Raining in the Mountain&quot; and &quot;Come Drink with Me&quot;. In terms of Wuxia novels, I'd probably recommend starting with &quot;The Deer in the Cauldron&quot; by Louis Cha.  Even the popular comic director Steven Chow touches on these subjects in films such as &quot;Kung Fu Hustle&quot; and &quot;Shaolin Soccer&quot;. But these are just a few sources.  You'll find these subjects deeply ingrained in a broad swathe of Chinese narrative both the literary and cinematic mediums.)  &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8343" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2023" RevisionGUID="d434c6d1-e88d-4e2e-88e0-2b5d3b1f462c" CreationDate="2016-10-07T22:04:37.183" UserId="2892" Comment="Added a bunch of links, since many may not be familiar with the references" Text="[Sun Wukong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren_(Confucianism)) used multiple methods.  These included gobbling up a bunch of [Laozi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laozi)'s elixer pills, gobbling down all of the magic peaches before the big banquet he wasn't invited to, and slugging down all of the Jade Emperor's wine. *(Although he was sort of an immortal before all that, having been born from a magic stone representing the merger of Heaven and Earth, and having cultivated his essence under the tutelage of an immortal who, wisely, declined to give his name...)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All of the demons he fights on his famous Journey, not having access to Heaven, seem to prefer the method of eating the Tang Priest, [Xuanzang](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xuanzang), who himself is an incarnation of the Golden Cicada. *(Rumor had it that to eat the flesh of the Tang Priest would make one exceptionally immortal.)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is another episode involving a Monastery with a tree that produces fruit that resembles like human infants.  (The fruits have different potencies based on how many thousands of years they require to ripen.)  If memory serves, Sun Wukong gobbled down a bunch of these as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can validate all of this on Wikipedia, although I highly recommend reading an unabridged translation of &quot;[Journey to the West](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_to_the_West)&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;________________________________________________________&#xD;&#xA;Regarding an exhaustive list of methods of achieving immortality, that would probably be worthy of a thesis.  Although the textual sources for Chinese Mythology are somewhat limited, the task would likely also entail delving into a rich, oral tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of cultivation of the Tao, this can have many meanings.  Most modern seekers seem to utilize [Chi Gong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qigong) and [Tai Chi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tai_chi) (the latter can be understood as a form of Chi Gong with more practical application), but it may also involve the concept sometimes known as &quot;right action&quot; as it relates to conduct.  (There is definitely confluence of Buddhist and Confucian ideas in regards to Taoism, with the latter almost certainly exerting the greatest influence.  [Master Kong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius) was more concerned with matters involving humanity/altruism (&quot;[ren](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren_(Confucianism))&quot;) and filial piety ([xiào](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filial_piety)), while Taoists tend to emphasize acting in accordance with nature, and may actually reject family in favor of solitude. Many Chinese hermits are traditionally Taoist practitioners, and the idea of an itinerant life was often embraced, with the intent of being free of cares, in part by rejecting worldly possessions and responsibilities. (The idea of physical immortality in Taoism is somewhat archaic at this point in history, although there are definitely still some folks out there who subscribe to it;) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is worth noting that &quot;Journey to the West&quot; can, on one level, be read as an attempt to reconcile Buddhist, Taoist and Confucian ideas.  For instance, the [Jade Emperor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jade_Emperor) is a Taoist deity who embodies Confucian ideals and acknowledges the supremacy of the Buddha. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the most simple, modern terms, cultivation of the self and of the Tao can be understood as striving each day to be a better you, seeking balance and practicing moderation in all things. (This is similar to the Buddhist &quot;middle way&quot;, but comes with the caveat that Taoists may sometimes seek extremes for various reasons, usually having to do with cultivating martial or magical power, nor do Taoists, in general, reject the pleasures of the flesh.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is also notable that Taoist practitioners, in popular culture, tend to reject wealth and worldly status, and these aspects can be observed in [Kungfu films](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kung_fu_film) and [Wuxia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuxia) novels.  (The legendary film director [King Hu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Hu) directly commented on many of these subjects in numerous films, including &quot;[A Touch of Zen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Touch_of_Zen)&quot;, &quot;[Dragon Gate Inn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Inn)&quot;, &quot;[Raining in the Mountain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raining_in_the_Mountain)&quot; and &quot;[Come Drink with Me](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Come_Drink_with_Me)&quot;. In terms of Wuxia novels, I'd probably recommend starting with &quot;[The Deer in the Cauldron](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Deer_and_the_Cauldron)&quot; by [Louis Cha](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jin_Yong).  Even the popular comic director [Steven Chow](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Chow) touches on these subjects in films such as &quot;[Kung Fu Hustle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kung_Fu_Hustle)&quot; and &quot;[Shaolin Soccer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Chow)&quot;. But these are just a few sources.  You'll find these subjects deeply ingrained in a broad swathe of Chinese narrative both in the literary and cinematic mediums.)  &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8345" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2024" RevisionGUID="1b9e915e-ecd8-4dd5-9f35-ad2a0ff5d238" CreationDate="2016-10-09T03:55:28.020" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="In the eddic poem Hrafnagaldur Óðins, stanza 6, Idunn is identified as an &quot;elf&quot; (alfar) and the &quot;youngest of the elder children of Ivaldi.&quot; This implies that Ivaldi had two sets of children, probably by different mothers. Thus Idunn is a sister of the famous smiths, the Sons of Ivaldi.In addition to that,according to the Poetic Edda,Tyr is said to the sons of the giants(Jötunn) Hymir and Hroðr.In that case,how and why are these two gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8346" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2024" RevisionGUID="1b9e915e-ecd8-4dd5-9f35-ad2a0ff5d238" CreationDate="2016-10-09T03:55:28.020" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="How and why are Idunn and Tyr gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8347" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2024" RevisionGUID="1b9e915e-ecd8-4dd5-9f35-ad2a0ff5d238" CreationDate="2016-10-09T03:55:28.020" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="|norse|mythical-creatures|giants|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8348" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2024" RevisionGUID="d28bc26c-b075-4448-a9cd-c340bc680364" CreationDate="2016-10-09T10:58:22.160" UserId="57" Comment="added 5 characters in body" Text="In the eddic poem Hrafnagaldur Óðins, stanza 6, Idunn is identified as an &quot;elf&quot; (alfar) and the &quot;youngest of the elder children of Ivaldi.&quot; This implies that Ivaldi had two sets of children, probably by different mothers. Thus Idunn is a sister of the famous smiths, the Sons of Ivaldi. In addition to that, according to the Poetic Edda, Tyr is said to the sons of the giants(Jötunn) Hymir and Hroðr. In that case, how and why are these two gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8349" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2025" RevisionGUID="a3e4a349-51ff-43e4-960d-575dcfcfe490" CreationDate="2016-10-09T12:05:15.093" UserId="666" Text="To answer briefly: Being a god was not about belonging to a specific &quot;race&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For Idunn, we can compare with the division of the gods into aesir and vanir, where the latter were in some sense linked to the alfar (in the poetic Edda, the term &quot;aesir and alfar&quot; refers to all the gods). Being linked to the alfar thus was not a disqualification.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For Tyr, having a giant as one of your parents was very common among the gods: Odin's mother was certainly a giant, and so was likely Thor's. Thor had one son, Magni, with a giantess (Magni is one of the gods that will survive Ragnarök and wield his father's hammer). Such pairings of gods with giantesses are extremely common: Frey and Njord both married giantesses. There is also Aegir, a giant, and lord of the Sea, possibly also the grandfather of the god Heimdall. Finally, there is Loki, who was explicitly a giant as well as a god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, being related to giants or elves was not in any way unique or something that diminished the status of a god. Being a god was about supporting the world order, not a matter of parentage." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8350" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2026" RevisionGUID="738a9f9c-e789-4d29-b601-189dcbe92145" CreationDate="2016-10-09T19:52:45.167" UserId="2892" Text="Here is a list of how the 8 Immortals did it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[He Xiangu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He_Xiangu) &quot;When she was about 14 or 15, a divine personage appeared to her in a dream and instructed her to eat powdered mica so that her body might become etherealised and immune from death. She did as instructed and also vowed to remain a virgin. She also gradually decreased her food intake. One day she ascended to Heaven in broad daylight and became an immortal.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Cao Guojiu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cao_Guojiu) &quot;Cao's younger brother, Cao Jingzhi (曹景植), abused his relationship with the imperial family by bullying others and engaging in corrupt practices. Cao tried to persuade his brother to change his ways but he did not listen. In the meantime, he also used his family fortune to help the poor and tried to make up for his brother's misdeeds. One day, Cao Jingzhi was accused by other officials in the imperial court of corruption and abuse of power. Cao felt so ashamed and disappointed by his brother's misconduct that he gave up his official career and went to the countryside to lead a reclusive life. During this time, he met the immortals Zhongli Quan and Lü Dongbin, who taught him Taoist magical arts. After many years of practice and cultivation, Cao himself also became an immortal.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Li Tieguai](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Tieguai) &quot;Li studied with Laozi, the founder of Taoism. He is said to have renounced material comforts and led a life of self-discipline as an act of religious devotion for 40 years, often going without food or sleep.  Li lived in a cave in the early stage of his Taoist training. Laozi tempted him with a beautiful woman he had made of wood. After refusing to acknowledge the presence of this woman and therefore defeating his temptation, Laozi told him of his trick and rewarded him with a small white tablet. After consuming this tablet, Li was never hungry nor ill. Laozi tempted Li again with money. Some robbers had buried money in Li's field without knowing he was watching. Laozi approached him in disguise and told him he should take any money that came to him. After Li refused, saying that he did not care if he remained poor his whole life, Laozi rewarded him with another pill. This pill bestowed upon Li the ability to fly at amazing speeds. On one occasion, his spirit travelled to Heaven to meet other immortals. He had told his apprentice, Li Qing, to wait for seven days for his spirit to return. If he did not return by then, Li Qing was to burn the body because that meant that he had become an immortal; but after six and a half days Li Qing had to go home to see to his sick mother one last time before she died. Li Qing thus cremated Li Tieguai's body. He passed by a dying beggar on his way to his mother's but did not have time to bury him. Upon returning, Li Tieguai's spirit found that his body had been cremated and had to enter the only body available at the time, the corpse of the homeless beggar who had just died of starvation. The beggar, unfortunately, had a long and pointed head, large ears with one large brass earring, a woolly and dishevelled beard and hair. He also had long, scraggy, and dark eyebrows, dark eyes, and he had a pan lid on his head and a lame leg. Laozi appeared and gave him a medicine gourd that could cure any illness and never emptied. Li then brought his apprentice's mother back to life using the liquid from his gourd. Li Qing was then dismissed as his apprentice, after being given a small pill and being told that he would work hard enough to become an immortal himself. This turned out to be true.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Lan Caihe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lan_Caihe) &quot;Lan was said to have been in a drunken stupor when they left the human world by riding on a celestial swan or crane into Heaven. One legend says that they became an Immortal with the help of Sun Wukong, who transferred 500 years of magical powers to them.&quot; [Note: &quot;they&quot; is used as the gender neutral singular pronoun.]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Lü Dongbin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%BC_Dongbin) &quot;A story has it that when in Chang An, Lü was tested by Zhongli Quan ten times before Quan took him in as a disciple and Lü subsequently became immortal.&quot; [Lü's Ten Trials](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%BC_Dongbin#Ten_trials_of_L.C3.BC_Dongbin)show Lü him to be an exceptional person, both in virtue, humanity, courage and constitution, certainly worthy of immortality.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Han Xiangzi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Xiangzi) There doesn't seem to be a specific story as to how Han achieved immortality, aside from being a student of the magical arts under Lü Dongbin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Zhang Guolao](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang_Guolao) &quot;A strong believer in the magic of necromancy, he was also known to be a master of qigong and could go without food for days, surviving on only a few sips of wine.&quot;  The implication is that he he studied and practiced to the point where he achieved immortality.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Zhongli Quan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhongli_Quan) &quot;There are two stories that depict how he became one of the immortals. In the first, it was in his continuous use of the immortal powers and his magical fan that eventually caused his descent into the shimmering cloud of the immortals. In the second, he was meditating near a wall of his hermitage when all of a sudden it collapsed. Behind the wall was a jade vessel that took him as an immortal to the shimmering cloud.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;*I basically lifted this from Wikipedia.  Many, but not all, of the quotes have citations there.  However, all of the stories are consistent with what I've read, seen, and had recounted to me.*  &#xD;&#xA; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8351" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2023" RevisionGUID="3c9c4748-a72f-4ed1-9c8a-69211057a8b9" CreationDate="2016-10-09T19:58:24.960" UserId="2892" Comment="Added a little more detail in response to Gibet's feeling on the exclusive Buddhist nature of Wukong and Journey" Text="[Sun Wukong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren_(Confucianism)) used multiple methods.  These included gobbling up a bunch of [Laozi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laozi)'s elixer pills, gobbling down all of the magic peaches before the big banquet he wasn't invited to, and slugging down all of the Jade Emperor's wine. *(Although he was sort of an immortal before all that, having been born from a magic stone representing the merger of Heaven and Earth, and having cultivated his essence under the tutelage of an immortal who, wisely, declined to give his name...)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wukong was also refined in Laozi crucible.  (Laozi was trying to extract his elixer out of Wukong, but the process only made Wukong stronger, &quot;hardening&quot; him significantly.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All of the demons he fights on his famous Journey, not having access to Heaven, seem to prefer the method of eating the Tang Priest, [Xuanzang](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xuanzang), who himself is an incarnation of the Golden Cicada. *(Rumor had it that to eat the flesh of the Tang Priest would make one exceptionally immortal.)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is another episode involving a Monastery with a tree that produces fruit that resembles like human infants.  (The fruits have different potencies based on how many thousands of years they require to ripen.)  If memory serves, Sun Wukong gobbled down a bunch of these as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can validate all of this on Wikipedia, although I highly recommend reading an unabridged translation of &quot;[Journey to the West](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_to_the_West)&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;________________________________________________________&#xD;&#xA;Regarding an exhaustive list of methods of achieving immortality, that would probably be worthy of a thesis.  Although the textual sources for Chinese Mythology are somewhat limited, the task would likely also entail delving into a rich, oral tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of cultivation of the Tao, this can have many meanings.  Most modern seekers seem to utilize [Chi Gong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qigong) and [Tai Chi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tai_chi) (the latter can be understood as a form of Chi Gong with more practical application), but it may also involve the concept sometimes known as &quot;right action&quot; as it relates to conduct.  (There is definitely confluence of Buddhist and Confucian ideas in regards to Taoism, with the latter almost certainly exerting the greatest influence.  [Master Kong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius) was more concerned with matters involving humanity/altruism (&quot;[ren](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren_(Confucianism))&quot;) and filial piety ([xiào](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filial_piety)), while Taoists tend to emphasize acting in accordance with nature, and may actually reject family in favor of solitude. Many Chinese hermits are traditionally Taoist practitioners, and the idea of an itinerant life was often embraced, with the intent of being free of cares, in part by rejecting worldly possessions and responsibilities. (The idea of physical immortality in Taoism is somewhat archaic at this point in history, although there are definitely still some folks out there who subscribe to it;) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is worth noting that &quot;Journey to the West&quot; can, on one level, be read as an attempt to reconcile Buddhist, Taoist and Confucian ideas.  For instance, the [Jade Emperor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jade_Emperor) is a Taoist deity who embodies Confucian ideals and acknowledges the supremacy of the Buddha. Wukong is Taoist deity retrieving a Buddhist sutra for the Confucian purpose of redeeming the souls of the ancestors. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the most simple, modern terms, cultivation of the self and of the Tao can be understood as striving each day to be a better you, seeking balance and practicing moderation in all things. (This is similar to the Buddhist &quot;middle way&quot;, but comes with the caveat that Taoists may sometimes seek extremes for various reasons, usually having to do with cultivating martial or magical power, nor do Taoists, in general, reject the pleasures of the flesh.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is also notable that Taoist practitioners, in popular culture, tend to reject wealth and worldly status, and these aspects can be observed in [Kungfu films](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kung_fu_film) and [Wuxia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuxia) films &amp; novels.  (The legendary film director [King Hu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Hu) directly commented on many of these subjects in numerous films, including &quot;[A Touch of Zen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Touch_of_Zen)&quot;, &quot;[Dragon Gate Inn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Inn)&quot;, &quot;[Raining in the Mountain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raining_in_the_Mountain)&quot; and &quot;[Come Drink with Me](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Come_Drink_with_Me)&quot;. In terms of Wuxia novels, I'd probably recommend starting with &quot;[The Deer in the Cauldron](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Deer_and_the_Cauldron)&quot; by [Louis Cha](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jin_Yong).  Even the popular comic director [Steven Chow](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Chow) touches on these subjects in films such as &quot;[Kung Fu Hustle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kung_Fu_Hustle)&quot; and &quot;[Shaolin Soccer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Chow)&quot;. But these are just a few sources.  You'll find these subjects deeply ingrained in a broad swathe of Chinese narrative both in the literary and cinematic mediums.)  &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8352" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2027" RevisionGUID="a49829c6-2bf1-47e7-b416-685efb8defeb" CreationDate="2016-10-09T21:22:07.653" UserId="2892" Text="[Legend of the White Snake](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend_of_the_White_Snake) is definitely worth mentioning, as it is one of the most well known Chinese folk tales.  Madame Whitesnake has been the subject of numerous traditional operas, and widely fictionalized in all narrative mediums.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Lü Dongbin, one of the Eight Immortals, disguises himself as a man selling treats at the Broken Bridge near the West Lake in Hangzhou. A boy called Xu Xian  buys some of the treats from Lü Dongbin without knowing that they are actually immortality pills. The boy does not feel hungry for the next three days returns to ask why. Lü Dongbin laughs and carries Xu Xian to the bridge, where he flips him upside down and causes him to vomit the immortality pills into the lake. In the lake, there is a white snake spirit who has been practising Taoist magical arts in the hope of becoming an immortal after centuries of training and cultivation. She eats the pills and gains 500 years' worth of magical powers.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is the jumping off point for the story, which is very old, and existed in the oral tradition long before being recorded.  (The earliest textual source for the story appears to be in 1624 during the Ming Dynasty, although the traditional operas seem to have the most influence in terms of defining the story.) Thus there have been many variations and transformations, both in terms of the details and meaning of the legend.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8353" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2026" RevisionGUID="fe9933d8-bd62-4bb2-aa0c-68e3cbaa001c" CreationDate="2016-10-09T21:41:30.667" UserId="2892" Comment="Shortened the text where possible and added a summary since part of the questions was how to cultivate oneself." Text="Here is a list of how the 8 Immortals did it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[He Xiangu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He_Xiangu) &quot;When she was about 14 or 15, a divine personage appeared to her in a dream and instructed her to eat powdered mica so that her body might become etherealised and immune from death. She did as instructed and also vowed to remain a virgin. She also gradually decreased her food intake. One day she ascended to Heaven in broad daylight and became an immortal.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Cao Guojiu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cao_Guojiu) &quot;Cao's younger brother abused his relationship with the imperial family by bullying others and engaging in corrupt practices. Cao tried to persuade his brother to change his ways but he did not listen. In the meantime, he also used his family fortune to help the poor and tried to make up for his brother's misdeeds. One day, the brother was accused by other officials in the imperial court of corruption and abuse of power. Cao felt so ashamed and disappointed by his brother's misconduct that he gave up his official career and went to the countryside to lead a reclusive life. During this time, he met the immortals Zhongli Quan and Lü Dongbin, who taught him Taoist magical arts. After many years of practice and cultivation, Cao himself also became an immortal.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Li Tieguai](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Tieguai) &quot;Li studied with Laozi, the founder of Taoism. He is said to have renounced material comforts and led a life of self-discipline as an act of religious devotion for 40 years, often going without food or sleep.  Li lived in a cave in the early stage of his Taoist training. Laozi tempted him with a beautiful woman he had made of wood. After refusing to acknowledge the presence of this woman and therefore defeating his temptation, Laozi told him of his trick and rewarded him with a small white tablet. After consuming this tablet, Li was never hungry nor ill. Laozi tempted Li again with money. Some robbers had buried money in Li's field without knowing he was watching. Laozi approached him in disguise and told him he should take any money that came to him. After Li refused, saying that he did not care if he remained poor his whole life, Laozi rewarded him with another pill. This pill bestowed upon Li the ability to fly at amazing speeds. On one occasion, his spirit travelled to Heaven to meet other immortals. He had told his apprentice, Li Qing, to wait for seven days for his spirit to return. If he did not return by then, Li Qing was to burn the body because that meant that he had become an immortal; but after six and a half days Li Qing had to go home to see to his sick mother one last time before she died. Li Qing thus cremated Li Tieguai's body. He passed by a dying beggar on his way to his mother's but did not have time to bury him. Upon returning, Li Tieguai's spirit found that his body had been cremated and had to enter the only body available at the time was the corpse of the and ugly, homeless beggar with a lame leg who had just died of starvation. Laozi appeared and gave him a medicine gourd that could cure any illness and never emptied. Li then brought his apprentice's mother back to life using the liquid from his gourd. Li Qing was then dismissed as his apprentice, after being given a small pill and being told that he would work hard enough to become an immortal himself. This turned out to be true.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Lan Caihe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lan_Caihe) &quot;Lan was said to have been in a drunken stupor when they left the human world by riding on a celestial swan or crane into Heaven. One legend says that they became an Immortal with the help of Sun Wukong, who transferred 500 years of magical powers to them.&quot; [Note: &quot;they&quot; is used as the gender neutral singular pronoun, and Lan is androgynous.]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Lü Dongbin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%BC_Dongbin) &quot;A story has it that when in Chang An, Lü was tested by Zhongli Quan ten times before Quan took him in as a disciple and Lü subsequently became immortal.&quot; [Lü's Ten Trials](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%BC_Dongbin#Ten_trials_of_L.C3.BC_Dongbin)show Lü him to be an exceptional person, both in virtue, humanity, courage and constitution, certainly worthy of immortality.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Han Xiangzi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Xiangzi) There doesn't seem to be a specific story as to how Han achieved immortality, aside from being a student of the magical arts under Lü Dongbin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Zhang Guolao](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang_Guolao) &quot;A strong believer in the magic of necromancy, he was also known to be a master of qigong and could go without food for days, surviving on only a few sips of wine.&quot;  The implication is that he he studied and practiced to the point where he achieved immortality.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Zhongli Quan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhongli_Quan) &quot;There are two stories that depict how he became one of the immortals. In the first, it was in his continuous use of the immortal powers and his magical fan that eventually caused his descent into the shimmering cloud of the immortals. In the second, he was meditating near a wall of his hermitage when all of a sudden it collapsed. Behind the wall was a jade vessel that took him as an immortal to the shimmering cloud.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is pretty good summation of the overall concepts:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;The Eight Immortals are examples of how all can obtain immortality. Most of the immortals were common folk who attracted the attention of the gods through suffering unjust treatment, without complaint, and gave more to others than themselves. They were admitted to eternal life as a reward for their acts on earth and bearing gifts to the Old Man of the South Pole, the god of longevity. 'The path to immortality includes achieving physical and spiritual harmony through meditation, diet, exercise, breath control, and the use of herbs. To achieve this state, one also had to eliminate all disease and evil from the body and spirit'.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[You can find the text and citations for this summary [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Tieguai#Religious_influence)] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;*I basically lifted this from Wikipedia.  Many, but not all, of the quotes have citations there.  However, all of the stories are consistent with what I've read, seen, and had recounted to me.*  &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8360" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2023" RevisionGUID="6eebc347-d062-4b6c-bf95-2f11750fce47" CreationDate="2016-10-10T22:03:40.413" UserId="2892" Comment="Wanted to expand a little to explain the association of Taoism to martial arts, and make that aspect more inclusionary" Text="[Sun Wukong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren_(Confucianism)) used multiple methods.  These included gobbling up a bunch of [Laozi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laozi)'s elixer pills, gobbling down all of the magic peaches before the big banquet he wasn't invited to, and slugging down all of the Jade Emperor's wine. *(Although he was sort of an immortal before all that, having been born from a magic stone representing the merger of Heaven and Earth, and having cultivated his essence under the tutelage of an immortal who, wisely, declined to give his name...)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wukong was also refined in Laozi crucible.  (Laozi was trying to extract his elixer out of Wukong, but the process only made Wukong stronger, &quot;hardening&quot; him significantly.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All of the demons he fights on his famous Journey, not having access to Heaven, seem to prefer the method of eating the Tang Priest, [Xuanzang](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xuanzang), who himself is an incarnation of the Golden Cicada. *(Rumor had it that to eat the flesh of the Tang Priest would make one exceptionally immortal.)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is another episode involving a Monastery with a tree that produces fruit that resembles like human infants.  (The fruits have different potencies based on how many thousands of years they require to ripen.)  If memory serves, Sun Wukong gobbled down a bunch of these as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can validate all of this on Wikipedia, although I highly recommend reading an unabridged translation of &quot;[Journey to the West](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_to_the_West)&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;________________________________________________________&#xD;&#xA;Regarding an exhaustive list of methods of achieving immortality, that would probably be worthy of a thesis.  Although the textual sources for Chinese Mythology are somewhat limited, the task would likely also entail delving into a rich, oral tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of cultivation of the Tao, this can have many meanings.  Most modern seekers seem to utilize [Chi Gong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qigong) and [Tai Chi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tai_chi) (the latter can be understood as a form of Chi Gong with more focus on practical, physical application.) Martial arts in general are considered a way of cultivating &quot;internal power&quot;, which is sometimes referred to as &quot;Chi&quot; or &quot;Ki&quot;, although the concept is quite nuanced, and variously interpreted. It's difficult to know with certainly how long Taoism has been associated with Chinese martial arts, but it's definitely goes back to at least the Ming Dynasty, which is where much of the more modern literature originates.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cultivating conduct may also involve the concept sometimes known as &quot;right action&quot; as it relates to conduct.  (There is definitely confluence of Buddhist and Confucian ideas in regards to Taoism, with the latter almost certainly exerting the greatest influence.  [Master Kong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius) was more concerned with matters involving humanity/altruism (&quot;[ren](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren_(Confucianism))&quot;) and filial piety ([xiào](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filial_piety)), while Taoists tend to emphasize acting in accordance with nature, and may actually reject family in favor of solitude. Many Chinese hermits are traditionally Taoist practitioners, and the idea of an itinerant life was often embraced, with the intent of being free of cares, in part by rejecting worldly possessions and responsibilities. (The idea of physical immortality in Taoism is somewhat archaic at this point in history, although there are definitely still some folks out there who subscribe to it;) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is worth noting that &quot;Journey to the West&quot; can, on one level, be read as an attempt to reconcile Buddhist, Taoist and Confucian ideas.  For instance, the [Jade Emperor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jade_Emperor) is a Taoist deity who embodies Confucian ideals and acknowledges the supremacy of the Buddha. Wukong is Taoist deity retrieving a Buddhist sutra for the Confucian purpose of redeeming the souls of the ancestors. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the most simple, modern terms, cultivation of the self and of the Tao can be understood as striving each day to be a better you, seeking balance and practicing moderation in all things. (This is similar to the Buddhist &quot;middle way&quot;, but comes with the caveat that Taoists may sometimes seek extremes for various reasons, usually having to do with cultivating martial or magical power, nor do Taoists, in general, reject the pleasures of the flesh.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is also notable that Taoist practitioners, in popular culture, tend to reject wealth and worldly status, and these aspects can be observed in [Kungfu films](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kung_fu_film) and [Wuxia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuxia) films &amp; novels.  (The legendary film director [King Hu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Hu) directly commented on many of these subjects in numerous films, including &quot;[A Touch of Zen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Touch_of_Zen)&quot;, &quot;[Dragon Gate Inn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Inn)&quot;, &quot;[Raining in the Mountain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raining_in_the_Mountain)&quot; and &quot;[Come Drink with Me](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Come_Drink_with_Me)&quot;. In terms of Wuxia novels, I'd probably recommend starting with &quot;[The Deer in the Cauldron](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Deer_and_the_Cauldron)&quot; by [Louis Cha](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jin_Yong).  Even the popular comic director [Steven Chow](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Chow) touches on these subjects in films such as &quot;[Kung Fu Hustle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kung_Fu_Hustle)&quot; and &quot;[Shaolin Soccer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Chow)&quot;. But these are just a few sources.  You'll find these subjects deeply ingrained in a broad swathe of Chinese narrative both in the literary and cinematic mediums.)  &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8362" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2030" RevisionGUID="f5fb703a-7fb9-4445-91b7-0405438f2b85" CreationDate="2016-10-11T00:05:12.167" UserId="2892" Text="Particularly geographical, historical, folkloric or linguistic connections.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I certainly can't find any such location on the map although there are a few coastal towns in Ulster that begin with &quot;Bally&quot;, an alternate spelling. [Ballycastle][1], for instance, seems to be associated with a legendary duel in which Congal, heir to the Kingdom of Ireland killed the King of Norway.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, according to [*A Dictionary of Derivations*][2], Sullivan, Robert (1860) p.283, the term is included in the names of at least 2000 Irish locations. From an etymological standpoint the word seems simply to mean a &quot;place&quot; or &quot;settlement&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Part of the reason I ask is that Yeats is a poet of the first order so I tend not to assume anything is random.  His plays are interesting, in part, because they occupy a place similar to the work of great Athenian dramatists, who commented on the great mythical cycles of their cultures, recorded centuries earlier by their forbearers.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballycastle,_County_Antrim&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.com/books?id=W6NhAAAAcAAJ&amp;pg=PA283&amp;lpg=PA283&amp;dq=strand%20of%20baile%20geography&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=hmByoubkhy&amp;sig=Wleq7MaR5xQjKsbW75VKyYOXISo&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwieorfhrNHPAhXL1R4KHeHNAVAQ6AEIMjAF#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8363" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2030" RevisionGUID="f5fb703a-7fb9-4445-91b7-0405438f2b85" CreationDate="2016-10-11T00:05:12.167" UserId="2892" Text="Is there any significance to Baile's Strand as the setting for Cúchulainn's duel with his son?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8364" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2030" RevisionGUID="f5fb703a-7fb9-4445-91b7-0405438f2b85" CreationDate="2016-10-11T00:05:12.167" UserId="2892" Text="|ulster-cycle|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8365" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2030" RevisionGUID="f45b4186-7cc3-42b2-ac70-634e283c8c96" CreationDate="2016-10-11T00:13:17.130" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|irish|ulster-cycle|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8366" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2031" RevisionGUID="447e2dca-5829-4dfa-a2d0-185a7a7a56c2" CreationDate="2016-10-11T15:08:38.013" UserId="3072" Text="So I am currently researching into ancient war gods and goddesses of various ancient religions and also learning about all the various afterlives the dead go to, it is not any type of official research I just enjoy learning about these types of things is all.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm trying to learning something kind of specific however and that is afterlives that are similar in their existence to Valhalla of the ancient Norse religion, basically a afterlife made for warriors to go to where they may continue to fight in battle. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With all the ancient war gods and goddesses that there are in history and so many different religions I would expect there to be more realms specifically reserved for warriors where they can continue to fight in battle such as Valhalla but so far I have only found the stereotypical Heaven where the deceased has everything they can ever want and doesn't ever have to lift a finger again. So does anyone know of such ancient civilizations that had such afterlives in their religions?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8367" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2031" RevisionGUID="447e2dca-5829-4dfa-a2d0-185a7a7a56c2" CreationDate="2016-10-11T15:08:38.013" UserId="3072" Text="Ancient Religions With A Warrior Afterlife?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8368" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2031" RevisionGUID="447e2dca-5829-4dfa-a2d0-185a7a7a56c2" CreationDate="2016-10-11T15:08:38.013" UserId="3072" Text="|folklore|afterlife|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8369" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2031" RevisionGUID="55de3326-a6c4-4c37-92d5-79df50407642" CreationDate="2016-10-11T15:30:32.687" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 93 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="So I am currently researching into ancient war gods and goddesses of various ancient religions and also learning about all the various afterlives the dead go to. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm trying to learning something kind of specific however and that is afterlives that are similar in their existence to Valhalla of the ancient Norse religion, basically a afterlife made for warriors to go to where they may continue to fight in battle. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With all the ancient war gods and goddesses that there are in history and so many different religions I would expect there to be more realms specifically reserved for warriors where they can continue to fight in battle such as Valhalla but so far I have only found the stereotypical Heaven where the deceased has everything they can ever want and doesn't ever have to lift a finger again. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So does anyone know of such ancient civilizations that had such afterlives in their religions?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8370" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2031" RevisionGUID="55de3326-a6c4-4c37-92d5-79df50407642" CreationDate="2016-10-11T15:30:32.687" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 93 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Mythologies with a warrior afterlife, similar to Valhalla?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8371" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2031" RevisionGUID="55de3326-a6c4-4c37-92d5-79df50407642" CreationDate="2016-10-11T15:30:32.687" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 93 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|myth-identification|afterlife|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8372" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2032" RevisionGUID="b741cd3c-22b1-4fc7-8d0c-33d0987b4325" CreationDate="2016-10-12T09:37:43.957" UserId="3076" Text="I read wikipedia and some mythology sites about the fox spirit that came from India but surprisingly they never mentioned about story in Indian version? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Only can find China - Daji, Japan - Kitsune, Korea - Kumiho&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what about Indian version?&#xD;&#xA;Any one know the original story from India?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8373" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2032" RevisionGUID="b741cd3c-22b1-4fc7-8d0c-33d0987b4325" CreationDate="2016-10-12T09:37:43.957" UserId="3076" Text="What is original story of Fox Spirit/Nine tails fox in india's myth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8374" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2032" RevisionGUID="b741cd3c-22b1-4fc7-8d0c-33d0987b4325" CreationDate="2016-10-12T09:37:43.957" UserId="3076" Text="|myth-identification|chinese|japanese|india|buddhist|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8375" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2033" RevisionGUID="11941be7-b916-47ac-a30b-94b79f9e8e0b" CreationDate="2016-10-12T13:17:33.447" UserId="2774" Text="Difficult (interesting) question. Here is an extract of Chinese Magical Medecine by Michel Strickmann implying the direct connection between the Inari and the Dakini.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The  “Dakini”  or  “Dagini”  for  which  this  complex  of  modern &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Japanese  possession-rites is named is, of course, the dakini of older&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tantric sources, identified since at least the eighth century with the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fox-phantom. As we have noted, the Chinese linking of the voracious&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and ill-omened dakini-demonesses with the fox was based on their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Indian associations with the jackal. In medi­eval Japan, it became&#xD;&#xA;&gt; customary to identify figures from the complex Indian pantheon of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tantric Buddhism with native deities (rather like the interpret at&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ioromana in the world of late antiquity). Thus it was natural for this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; interpretatio nipponica to see in the supernatural fox-dakini the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; original of Japan’s own Inari, a god of rice cultivation often&#xD;&#xA;&gt; depicted in vulpine form.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now why the Dakini. The Dakini is a Tantric Buddhist monster. It appears in the Mahavairocana Tantra and he (the Dakini) is overwhelmed by Mahavairocana Buddha and (s)he rides a jackal. The text is well known in Japan (as Mahavairocana sutra)&lt;BR&gt; &#xD;&#xA;Note that the Dakini is present in numerous Indian stories with lots of variants... LOTS of (including sex, appeance, attributes, malvolence).&#xD;&#xA;Jackal being unknown in China and Japan, they translated by another small canine fox.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;So the Kitsune comes from the Daji. But the local deity Inari is identified by the Buddhist Indian Dakini to some extend. Here is the Japanese Dakini-ten riding her legendary fox (I pick this one because it is a gorgeous one):&lt;BR&gt;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now regarding the Kitsune/Daji. Here is from the Cult of fox by Khang:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The fox motif in stories of Reynard and the fables of Aesop have appeared frequently in European paintings and architecture since the 13th[...](such) tales are found in all countries of Europe, including Russia and the Near and Middle East. The motif of the fox wife [ie Daji/Kitsune, note by me] wa salso found in Chinese and Japanese folklore and accross the Berling Strait among the Eskimos in North America.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;So here no connection are implied between India and Daji/Kitsune.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/fgdX7.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8376" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2034" RevisionGUID="a8ed90bc-33aa-496e-972e-04f80e3d7f64" CreationDate="2016-10-12T20:10:40.183" UserId="3078" Text="In Indo-European mythology, particular, in Slavic, Baltic and Germanic mythologies there is so-called World Tree, more precisely, World Oak that plays sacred role and connects underworld to heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is mentioned in Pushin's poem &quot;Ruslan and Ludmila&quot; which starts &quot;At Lukomorie there is an oak green, a golden chain is on that oak...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I looked up what Lukomorie is. Literally it means &quot;a sea arc, bow&quot;. Russian Wikipedia describes it as &quot;in Slavic mythology, a holy place at the edge of universe, where the World Tree grows&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [The Tale of Igor's Campaign][1] describing Prince Igor's campaign of 1185 uses this word to refer to the area near North-Western shore of the Azov sea, as do other sources. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is a map that labels the tribe occupying the region as &quot;Lukomorie Polovtsi&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A Google map of the area indeed shows bow-like formations:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But what is more interesting, is where the sea reached formerly. In fact, formerly the sea occupied the arc-shaped gulf (now called Milk Liman) reaching beyond the modern city of Melitopol.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lets look even closer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][5]][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a place that was formerly situated at the very end of the bow-shaped gulf, at the very shore of the sea.&#xD;&#xA;The bright spot on the photo is the [archeological site Kamennaya Mogila][6]. The place was venerated as a holy site at least from 20th century BC to 12th century AD (possibly, even 17th century), well after the adoption of Christianity by the Kievan Rus. Some researchers (Rossokha) think it was venerated since the era of Proto-Indo-European unity, namely, [Sredny Stog culture][7] This makes it the longest continuously venerated pagan holy site. The innards of the site are inscribed with a non-deciphered ancient language.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][8]][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The site is located at the place of ancient estuary of the river, called by Herodotus as Γέρρος, which a Scythian name, that comes from a Sanskrit-related language where it was called [Gorasa][9] which literally means &quot;milk&quot;, and even in Modern Russian it is called &quot;Milk river&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, I wonder, how probable it is that the so-called World Oak was originally located at this place.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][10]][10]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tale_of_Igor%27s_Campaign&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/KqHMW.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/HCkqS.png&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://storage7.static.itmages.ru/i/16/1012/h_1476248341_4164123_30eef8c695.png&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/NH0bE.png&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamyana_Mohyla&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sredny_Stog_culture&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/u7VPs.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=gorasa&amp;direction=SE&amp;script=HK&amp;link=yes&amp;beginning=&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://discover-ukraine.info/uploads/i/i/4f282d36bdb9c6.87610163.185.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8377" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2034" RevisionGUID="a8ed90bc-33aa-496e-972e-04f80e3d7f64" CreationDate="2016-10-12T20:10:40.183" UserId="3078" Text="Where the World Tree was located?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8378" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2034" RevisionGUID="a8ed90bc-33aa-496e-972e-04f80e3d7f64" CreationDate="2016-10-12T20:10:40.183" UserId="3078" Text="|norse|world-tree|slavic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8379" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2033" RevisionGUID="5ed838e1-7b4d-44f7-9b0a-4d772ce53d4f" CreationDate="2016-10-13T07:29:13.943" UserId="2774" Comment="Correctly cites Cult of the Fox" Text="Difficult (interesting) question. Here is an extract of Chinese Magical Medecine by Michel Strickmann implying the direct connection between the Inari and the Dakini.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The  “Dakini”  or  “Dagini”  for  which  this  complex  of  modern &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Japanese  possession-rites is named is, of course, the dakini of older&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tantric sources, identified since at least the eighth century with the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fox-phantom. As we have noted, the Chinese linking of the voracious&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and ill-omened dakini-demonesses with the fox was based on their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Indian associations with the jackal. In medi­eval Japan, it became&#xD;&#xA;&gt; customary to identify figures from the complex Indian pantheon of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tantric Buddhism with native deities (rather like the interpret at&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ioromana in the world of late antiquity). Thus it was natural for this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; interpretatio nipponica to see in the supernatural fox-dakini the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; original of Japan’s own Inari, a god of rice cultivation often&#xD;&#xA;&gt; depicted in vulpine form.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now why the Dakini. The Dakini is a Tantric Buddhist monster. It appears in the Mahavairocana Tantra and he (the Dakini) is overwhelmed by Mahavairocana Buddha and (s)he rides a jackal. The text is well known in Japan (as Mahavairocana sutra)&lt;BR&gt; &#xD;&#xA;Note that the Dakini is present in numerous Indian stories with lots of variants... LOTS of (including sex, appeance, attributes, malvolence).&#xD;&#xA;Jackal being unknown in China and Japan, they translated by another small canine fox.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;So the Kitsune comes from the Daji. But the local deity Inari is identified by the Buddhist Indian Dakini to some extend. Here is the Japanese Dakini-ten riding her legendary fox (I pick this one because it is a gorgeous one):&lt;BR&gt;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now regarding the Kitsune/Daji. Here is from the Cult of fox by Khang:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The fox motif in stories of Reynard and the fables of Aesop have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; appeared frequently in European paintings and architecture since the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 13th[...](such) tales are found in all countries of Europe, including&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Russia and the Near and Middle East. The motif of the fox wife [ie&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Daji/Kitsune, note by me] wa salso found in Chinese and Japanese&#xD;&#xA;&gt; folklore and accross the Berling Strait among the Eskimos in North&#xD;&#xA;&gt; America.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;So here no connection are implied between India and Daji/Kitsune.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/fgdX7.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8380" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2033" RevisionGUID="c202e650-7622-484d-8ed5-f16604088a19" CreationDate="2016-10-13T07:37:18.707" UserId="2774" Comment="Small complement" Text="Difficult (interesting) question. Here is an extract of Chinese Magical Medecine by Michel Strickmann implying the direct connection between the Inari and the Dakini.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The  “Dakini”  or  “Dagini”  for  which  this  complex  of  modern &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Japanese  possession-rites is named is, of course, the dakini of older&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tantric sources, identified since at least the eighth century with the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fox-phantom. As we have noted, the Chinese linking of the voracious&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and ill-omened dakini-demonesses with the fox was based on their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Indian associations with the jackal. In medi­eval Japan, it became&#xD;&#xA;&gt; customary to identify figures from the complex Indian pantheon of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tantric Buddhism with native deities (rather like the interpret at&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ioromana in the world of late antiquity). Thus it was natural for this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; interpretatio nipponica to see in the supernatural fox-dakini the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; original of Japan’s own Inari, a god of rice cultivation often&#xD;&#xA;&gt; depicted in vulpine form.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now why the Dakini. The Dakini is a Tantric Buddhist monster. It appears in the Mahavairocana Tantra and he (the Dakini) is overwhelmed by Mahavairocana Buddha and (s)he rides a jackal. The text is well known in Japan (as Mahavairocana sutra).&lt;BR&gt; &#xD;&#xA;Note that the Dakini is present in numerous Indian stories with lots of variants... LOTS of (including sex, appeance, attributes, malvolence). It is also known in Tibetan version. Jackal being unknown in China and Japan, they translated by another small canine fox.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Note also that the Inari appears to be from an old local Japanese tradition, it later been related to fox (around the 12th century) before joining more or then with the Dakini. The Inari also has the particularity to not be well defined, especially if (s)he is male or female. The blur with mysterious Dakini is quite obvious (Hence why be wary of my claim about one version specifically of the Dakini).&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;So the local deity Inari is identified by the Buddhist Indian Dakini to some extend. Here is the Japanese Dakini-ten riding her legendary fox (I pick this one because it is a gorgeous one):&lt;BR&gt;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now regarding the Kitsune/Daji. Here is from the Cult of fox by Khang:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The fox motif in stories of Reynard and the fables of Aesop have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; appeared frequently in European paintings and architecture since the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 13th[...](such) tales are found in all countries of Europe, including&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Russia and the Near and Middle East. The motif of the fox wife [ie&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Daji/Kitsune, note by me] wa salso found in Chinese and Japanese&#xD;&#xA;&gt; folklore and accross the Berling Strait among the Eskimos in North&#xD;&#xA;&gt; America.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Tales of Reynard is a Medieval French book telling the adventures of Reynard. In modern French, fox is *renard*, and the novel is *Roman de Renard*, where the main character, Renard was a goupil (ancien French word for fox). The novel was so popular that foxes are now called *renard* and no more goupil.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And finally, there is no connection implied between India and Daji/Kitsune. They are from local Chinese tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/fgdX7.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8382" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2035" RevisionGUID="a87838d0-5ba0-41f5-bcdc-99076b48ba2f" CreationDate="2016-10-13T18:37:47.777" UserId="2892" Text="The &quot;Poetic Edda&quot; is used to refer to a group of poems dealing with the Norse Gods.  There doesn't seem to be a single version, but all versions draw from the Codex Regius. Although the Codex was written in the 13th century, the material it is comprised of may be older, as [Old Norse poetry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Norse_poetry) dates as far back as the 8th century. The poems constitute what may be termed &quot;Eddaic poetry&quot; as opposed to the more complex &quot;[skaldic poetry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skald)&quot;. The poems themselves are unattributed and the author Codex is unknown.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Prose Edda, by contrast, is attributed to Snorri Sturluson, although he may have simply compiled it, as opposed to having been the author.  The stories contained in the Prose Edda are more detailed and reflect the more sophisticated narrative techniques of later generations. (The Icelandic Sagas, in particular, can be viewed as a precursor to the modern novel.) Although the Prose Edda certainly draws from the poems of the Poetic Edda, it also includes many embellishments.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a personal standpoint, I feel that the Poetic Edda is similar to Classical work such as the [Homeric Hymns](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeric_Hymns), where the Prose Edda provides much more detailed narrative similar to, say, the Odyssey, although it is a collection of stories as opposed to a single epic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;*For the Norse Mythology experts, please feel free to make corrections if the are any inaccuracies in this answer!  My intent is to provide helpful context beyond the bare facts.*   " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8383" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2035" RevisionGUID="dcdf1c16-1b93-49f5-8c18-39803509f623" CreationDate="2016-10-13T18:46:39.357" UserId="2892" Comment="added 11 characters in body" Text="The &quot;Poetic Edda&quot; is used to refer to a group of poems dealing with the Norse Gods and heroes.  There doesn't seem to be a single version, but all versions draw from the Codex Regius. Although the Codex was written in the 13th century, the material it is comprised of may be older, as [Old Norse poetry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Norse_poetry) dates as far back as the 8th century. The poems constitute what may be termed &quot;Eddaic poetry&quot; as opposed to the more complex &quot;[skaldic poetry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skald)&quot;. The poems themselves are unattributed and the author Codex is unknown.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Prose Edda, by contrast, is attributed to Snorri Sturluson, although he may have simply compiled it, as opposed to having been the author.  The stories contained in the Prose Edda are more detailed and reflect the more sophisticated narrative techniques of later generations. (The Icelandic Sagas, in particular, can be viewed as a precursor to the modern novel.) Although the Prose Edda certainly draws from the poems of the Poetic Edda, it also includes many embellishments.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a personal standpoint, I feel that the Poetic Edda is similar to Classical work such as the [Homeric Hymns](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeric_Hymns), where the Prose Edda provides much more detailed narrative similar to, say, the Odyssey, although it is a collection of stories as opposed to a single epic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;*For the Norse Mythology experts, please feel free to make corrections if the are any inaccuracies in this answer!  My intent is to provide helpful context beyond the bare facts.*   " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8384" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2035" RevisionGUID="c8f00932-2200-40d6-b988-21fd29bf7a6d" CreationDate="2016-10-13T19:30:34.583" UserId="2892" Comment="added some detail per my conclusion" Text="The &quot;Poetic Edda&quot; is used to refer to a group of poems dealing with the Norse Gods and heroes.  There doesn't seem to be a single version, but all versions draw from the Codex Regius. Although the Codex was written in the 13th century, the material it is comprised of may be older, as [Old Norse poetry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Norse_poetry) dates as far back as the 8th century. The poems constitute what may be termed &quot;Eddaic poetry&quot; as opposed to the more complex &quot;[skaldic poetry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skald)&quot;. The poems themselves are unattributed and the author Codex is unknown.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Prose Edda, by contrast, is attributed to Snorri Sturluson, although he may have simply compiled it, as opposed to having been the author.  The stories contained in the Prose Edda are more detailed and reflect the more sophisticated narrative techniques of later generations. (The Icelandic Sagas, in particular, can be viewed as a precursor to the modern novel.) Although the Prose Edda certainly draws from the poems of the Poetic Edda, it also includes many embellishments.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a personal standpoint, I feel that the Poetic Edda is similar to Classical work such as the [Homeric Hymns](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeric_Hymns) which are more formal and have a religious context.  The Prose Edda, by comparison, provides more detailed and engaging narrative similar to, say, the Odyssey, although it is a collection of stories as opposed to a single epic, with the entertainment of the reader/listener as the primary intent.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;*For the Norse Mythology experts, please feel free to make corrections if the are any inaccuracies in this answer!  My intent is to provide helpful context beyond the bare facts.*   " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8385" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2033" RevisionGUID="c65d9a46-f01f-4f83-b734-853a5032a02d" CreationDate="2016-10-13T21:00:37.263" UserId="2892" Comment="Edited to correct a couple minor typos/formatting and provide some links to relevant items." Text="Difficult (interesting) question. Here is an extract of [Chinese Magical Medicine](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/668301.Chinese_Magical_Medicine) by Michel Strickmann implying the direct connection between the Inari and the Dakini.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The  “[Dakini](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakini)”  or  “Dagini”  for  which  this  complex  of  modern &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Japanese  possession-rites is named is, of course, the dakini of older&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tantric sources, identified since at least the eighth century with the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fox-phantom. As we have noted, the Chinese linking of the voracious&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and ill-omened dakini-demonesses with the fox was based on their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Indian associations with the jackal. In medi­eval Japan, it became&#xD;&#xA;&gt; customary to identify figures from the complex Indian pantheon of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tantric Buddhism with native deities (rather like the interpret at&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ioromana in the world of late antiquity). Thus it was natural for this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; interpretatio nipponica to see in the supernatural fox-dakini the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; original of Japan’s own [Inari](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inari_%C5%8Ckami), a god of rice cultivation often&#xD;&#xA;&gt; depicted in vulpine form.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now why the Dakini. The Dakini is a Tantric Buddhist monster. It appears in the Mahavairocana Tantra and he (the Dakini) is overwhelmed by Mahavairocana Buddha and (s)he rides a jackal. The text is well known in Japan (as Mahavairocana sutra).&lt;BR&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that the Dakini is present in numerous Indian stories with lots of variants... LOTS of (including sex, appeance, attributes, malvolence). It is also known in Tibetan version. Jackal being unknown in China and Japan, they translated by another small canine fox.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Note also that the Inari appears to be from an old local Japanese tradition, it later been related to fox (around the 12th century) before joining more or then with the Dakini. The Inari also has the particularity to not be well defined, especially if (s)he is male or female. The blur with mysterious Dakini is quite obvious (Hence why be wary of my claim about one version specifically of the Dakini).&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;So the local deity Inari is identified by the Buddhist Indian Dakini to some extend. Here is the Japanese Dakini-ten riding her legendary fox (I pick this one because it is a gorgeous one):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now regarding the [Kitsune](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsune)/[Daji](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daji). Here is from the [Cult of the Fox](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4637840-the-cult-of-the-fox) by Xiaofei Kang:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The fox motif in stories of Reynard and the fables of Aesop have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; appeared frequently in European paintings and architecture since the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 13th[...](such) tales are found in all countries of Europe, including&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Russia and the Near and Middle East. The motif of the fox wife [ie&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Daji/Kitsune, note by me] wa salso found in Chinese and Japanese&#xD;&#xA;&gt; folklore and accross the Berling Strait among the Eskimos in North&#xD;&#xA;&gt; America.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Tales of Reynard is a Medieval French book telling the adventures of Reynard. In modern French, fox is *renard*, and the novel is *Roman de Renard*, where the main character, Renard was a *goupil* (ancient French word for fox). The novel was so popular that foxes are now called *renard* and no more *goupil*.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, there is no connection implied between India and Daji/Kitsune. They are from local Chinese tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/fgdX7.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8386" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2033" RevisionGUID="c65d9a46-f01f-4f83-b734-853a5032a02d" CreationDate="2016-10-13T21:00:37.263" Comment="Proposed by 2892 approved by 292, 967 edit id of 375" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8387" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1398" RevisionGUID="282e982c-8971-45a0-a971-ad3464a20e81" CreationDate="2016-10-14T02:27:25.790" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="8388" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="2010" RevisionGUID="653c761e-1d40-485a-a91c-83f6939139ad" CreationDate="2016-10-14T05:27:25.370" UserId="-1" Comment="30" />
  <row Id="8389" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2033" RevisionGUID="042e6fd6-933e-416b-b5f8-fdb48587b398" CreationDate="2016-10-14T09:46:31.217" UserId="2774" Comment="added 353 characters in body" Text="Difficult (interesting) question. Here is an extract of [Chinese Magical Medicine](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/668301.Chinese_Magical_Medicine) by Michel Strickmann implying the direct connection between the Inari and the Dakini (p. 272).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The  “[Dakini](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakini)”  or  “Dagini”  for  which  this  complex  of  modern &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Japanese  possession-rites is named is, of course, the dakini of older&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tantric sources, identified since at least the eighth century with the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fox-phantom. As we have noted, the Chinese linking of the voracious&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and ill-omened dakini-demonesses with the fox was based on their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Indian associations with the jackal. In medi­eval Japan, it became&#xD;&#xA;&gt; customary to identify figures from the complex Indian pantheon of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tantric Buddhism with native deities (rather like the interpret at&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ioromana in the world of late antiquity). Thus it was natural for this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; interpretatio nipponica to see in the supernatural fox-dakini the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; original of Japan’s own [Inari](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inari_%C5%8Ckami), a god of rice cultivation often&#xD;&#xA;&gt; depicted in vulpine form.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now why the Dakini. The Dakini is a Tantric Buddhist monster. It appears in the Mahavairocana Tantra and he (the Dakini) is overwhelmed by Mahavairocana Buddha and (s)he rides a jackal. The text is well known in Japan (as Mahavairocana sutra).&lt;BR&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that the Dakini is present in numerous Indian stories with lots of variants... LOTS of (including sex, appeance, attributes, malvolence). It is also known in Tibetan version. Jackal being unknown in China and Japan, they translated by another small canine fox.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Note also that the Inari appears to be from an old local Japanese tradition, it later been related to fox (around the 12th century) before joining more or then with the Dakini. The Inari also has the particularity to not be well defined, especially if (s)he is male or female. The blur with mysterious Dakini is quite obvious (Hence why be wary of my claim about one version specifically of the Dakini, or to compare too much the Inari and Dakini, or even Dakini and Dakini-Ten).&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;So the local deity Inari is identified by the Buddhist Indian Dakini to some extend. Here is the Japanese Dakini-ten riding her legendary fox (I pick this one because it is a gorgeous one, notice the small rice sheaf in her hand) (Note also it exists a [male version][1] of Dakini-ten, carrying a sword/weapon instead of a sheaf of rice):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now regarding the [Kitsune](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsune)/[Daji](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daji). Here is from the [Cult of the Fox](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4637840-the-cult-of-the-fox) by Xiaofei Kang (p234, note 13):&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The fox motif in stories of Reynard and the fables of Aesop have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; appeared frequently in European paintings and architecture since the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 13th[...](such) tales are found in all countries of Europe, including&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Russia and the Near and Middle East. The motif of the fox wife [ie&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Daji/Kitsune, note by me] wa salso found in Chinese and Japanese&#xD;&#xA;&gt; folklore and accross the Berling Strait among the Eskimos in North&#xD;&#xA;&gt; America.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Tales of Reynard is a Medieval French book telling the adventures of Reynard. In modern French, fox is *renard*, and the novel is *Roman de Renard*, where the main character, Renard was a *goupil* (ancient French word for fox). The novel was so popular that foxes are now called *renard* and no more *goupil*.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, there is no connection implied between India and Daji/Kitsune. They are from local Chinese tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-jT5mXj2kgzA/UxOHvsw1ntI/AAAAAAAAD40/ezuIQVqDeSs/s1600/dakiniten2.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/fgdX7.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8390" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2033" RevisionGUID="a6aa9ee6-d191-4a97-b511-f99fc2fece6e" CreationDate="2016-10-14T12:21:15.813" UserId="2774" Comment="Add Tamamo no mae" Text="Difficult (interesting) question. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Dakini connection&#xD;&#xA;---------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is an extract of [Chinese Magical Medicine](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/668301.Chinese_Magical_Medicine) by Michel Strickmann implying the direct connection between the Inari and the Dakini (p. 272).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The  “[Dakini](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakini)”  or  “Dagini”  for  which  this  complex  of  modern &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Japanese  possession-rites is named is, of course, the dakini of older&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tantric sources, identified since at least the eighth century with the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fox-phantom. As we have noted, the Chinese linking of the voracious&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and ill-omened dakini-demonesses with the fox was based on their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Indian associations with the jackal. In medi­eval Japan, it became&#xD;&#xA;&gt; customary to identify figures from the complex Indian pantheon of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tantric Buddhism with native deities (rather like the interpret at&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ioromana in the world of late antiquity). Thus it was natural for this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; interpretatio nipponica to see in the supernatural fox-dakini the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; original of Japan’s own [Inari](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inari_%C5%8Ckami), a god of rice cultivation often&#xD;&#xA;&gt; depicted in vulpine form.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now why the Dakini. The Dakini is a Tantric Buddhist monster. It appears in the Mahavairocana Tantra and he (the Dakini) is overwhelmed by Mahavairocana Buddha and (s)he rides a jackal. The text is well known in Japan (as Mahavairocana sutra).&lt;BR&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that the Dakini is present in numerous Indian stories with lots of variants... LOTS of (including sex, appeance, attributes, malvolence). It is also known in Tibetan version. Jackal being unknown in China and Japan, they translated by another small canine fox.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Note also that the Inari appears to be from an old local Japanese tradition, it later been related to fox (around the 12th century) before joining more or then with the Dakini. The Inari also has the particularity to not be well defined, especially if (s)he is male or female. The blur with mysterious Dakini is quite obvious (Hence why be wary of my claim about one version specifically of the Dakini, or to compare too much the Inari and Dakini, or even Dakini and Dakini-Ten).&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;So the local deity Inari is identified by the Buddhist Indian Dakini to some extend. Here is the Japanese Dakini-ten riding her legendary fox (I pick this one because it is a gorgeous one, notice the small rice sheaf in her hand) (Note also it exists a [male version][1] of Dakini-ten, carrying a sword/weapon instead of a sheaf of rice):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Kitsune&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now regarding the [Kitsune](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsune)/[Daji](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daji). Here is from the [Cult of the Fox](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4637840-the-cult-of-the-fox) by Xiaofei Kang (p234, note 13):&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The fox motif in stories of Reynard and the fables of Aesop have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; appeared frequently in European paintings and architecture since the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 13th[...](such) tales are found in all countries of Europe, including&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Russia and the Near and Middle East. The motif of the fox wife [ie&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Daji/Kitsune, note by me] wa salso found in Chinese and Japanese&#xD;&#xA;&gt; folklore and accross the Berling Strait among the Eskimos in North&#xD;&#xA;&gt; America.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Tales of Reynard is a Medieval French book telling the adventures of Reynard. In modern French, fox is *renard*, and the novel is *Roman de Renard*, where the main character, Renard was a *goupil* (ancient French word for fox). The novel was so popular that foxes are now called *renard* and no more *goupil*.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, there is no connection implied between India and Daji/Kitsune. They are from local Chinese tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tamamo-No-Mae&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is now an example of a &quot;true&quot; Kitsune story (I mean by true, from japanese culture, not that you will find a kitsune as your girl next door).&#xD;&#xA;I push you first [there][3], where you will find a resume of the original text as well as very beautiful original drawings.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;See here some japanese warriors hunting an innocent two-tailed fox (The site I linked give you the Otogizoshi, browse it for the text and marvelous illustrations):[![enter image description here][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;The story goes like that (short summary): Tamama-no-mae is the favourite concubine of Emperor Toba-no-in, reputed for her extreme beauty, marvelous scent as well as incredible cleverness. But unfortunately she is in fact a terrible kitsune.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Later tradition, not the Otogizochi, will link her to Chinese princess Daji, possessed by a fox spirit, due to the similitude in story. Now Daji story predating Tamamo story there is still a chance this is a port.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And here is the thing, all of that is buddhist in nature. And buddhism comes from India, so most of the time, you find those creatures (princess Daji, or Tamamo) mentioned as &quot;coming form India&quot; (Note that the Otogizoshi does not, she is Japanese, period). But one as to not see that as &quot;coming from true India&quot; but much more a way for Chinese and Japanese to mention something exotic. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-jT5mXj2kgzA/UxOHvsw1ntI/AAAAAAAAD40/ezuIQVqDeSs/s1600/dakiniten2.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/fgdX7.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://edb.kulib.kyoto-u.ac.jp/exhibit-e/otogi/tamamo/tamamo.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ZVS6Q.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8393" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2037" RevisionGUID="302e4410-4723-4939-87ee-c096c5442b13" CreationDate="2016-10-14T16:49:38.407" UserId="2892" Text="The use of a triad of seasons may have something to do with the [mild winters in Southern Greece][1].  Specifically that they don't have a &quot;proper winter&quot; as those inhabiting northern climes would understand it. As oerkelens points out, some cultures divide the years into two seasons, rainy and dry, which is purely based on climate.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The triad represents the three key aspects of the cycle of seasons in an agricultural context, namely [Θαλλώ](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=%CE%98%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%BB%CF%8E&amp;la=greek#Perseus:text:1999.04.0072:entry=qa/llw-contents) (&quot;blossom&quot;), [Αὐξώ](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=%CE%91%E1%BD%90%CE%BE%CF%8E&amp;la=greek#Perseus:text:1999.04.0058) (&quot;grow&quot;) and [Καρπώ](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=karpos&amp;la=greek#Perseus:text:1999.04.0072:entry=karpo/s1-contents) (&quot;fruit&quot;). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Triads, particularly involving goddesses, were quite prevalent in Greek Mythology, so that may also have been a factor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that these words can be variously translated, but the translation I choose gives you the gist.  I've linked to the lexical entries on Perseus so you can take a look at the range of meanings for each word.  It's worth mentioning that [Robert Graves](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Graves) in the index to [The Greek Myths](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/820461.The_Greek_Myths) translates Καρπώ as &quot;withering&quot;, which certainly has more of a wintery flavor and would seem to acknowledge Persephone's time in the underworld.    &#xD;&#xA;    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.travelinfo.gr/greece/info/climate.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8394" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1398" RevisionGUID="111202ac-7902-454a-974d-ada01fe1a0ef" CreationDate="2016-10-14T18:10:37.567" UserId="2892" Comment="I edited the question itself to reflect what I think they are asking, and make it relevant from a search standpoint" Text="Why are there only 3 Horai if the year is split into four sections?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8395" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1398" RevisionGUID="111202ac-7902-454a-974d-ada01fe1a0ef" CreationDate="2016-10-14T18:10:37.567" Comment="Proposed by 2892 approved by 183 edit id of 376" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8398" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="166" RevisionGUID="f6669746-f785-4e34-bfb3-fdfffba810a0" CreationDate="2016-10-14T21:16:04.023" UserId="967" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="In Norse mythology, the Kraken is said to be a gigantic octopus (or sometimes a squid) that attack sailing ships. It is said that the Kraken would surface at Ragnarök.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So far, I haven't found any articles stating that the Kraken is a single entity. Nor have I found anything which denies it. Is the Kraken a single being or is it a species?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8399" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2038" RevisionGUID="75d3b527-80fa-4e8c-a8cc-7c8f15a1a2a6" CreationDate="2016-10-14T21:29:23.540" UserId="2892" Text="In contemporary culture, one tends to see objects like the [&quot;Bagua Fengshui Mirror&quot;](http://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/server5900/f9354/products/65/images/153/octagonalredgreenmirror1a__99768.1338124123.1280.1280.jpg?c=2) which is supposed to scare away evil spirits, or the [&quot;Coin Sword&quot;](http://g02.a.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1QlSUKFXXXXbTXFXXq6xXFXXXM/Vintage-Retro-38-font-b-Coins-b-font-23mm-Alloy-Old-Lucky-Feng-Shui-font-b.jpg) which has similar spiritual powers.  Swords made of particular types of wood are also believed to have magical powers. I don't know how old these traditions are and can't think of any references in ancient Chinese mythology. However, there is one very famous magical construct that is tied in with ancient Chinese mythology: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Lo Shu Square](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lo_Shu_Square) which is attributed to [Emperor Yu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yu_the_Great).  It's impossible to know the true origin of this construct, but it does seem to be quite ancient.  Although there is not a lot of readily available documentation on the matter, stories concerning the Yu the Great are well known and appear as early as the first century BC in [Sima Qian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sima_Qian)'s [Records of the Grand Historian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Records_of_the_Grand_Historian).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's not entirely clear what the Lu Shu Square was used for, but Yu was associated flood control, which was and remains *very important* in China, and it also seems to be related to [geomancy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomancy).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You may also be interested in [this link](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_spiritual_world_concepts)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8400" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2038" RevisionGUID="4d1122cd-9516-48df-9624-2edc703fe585" CreationDate="2016-10-14T21:42:54.087" UserId="2892" Comment="added a couple of pictures" Text="In contemporary culture, one tends to see objects like the [&quot;Bagua Fengshui Mirror&quot;](http://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/server5900/f9354/products/65/images/153/octagonalredgreenmirror1a__99768.1338124123.1280.1280.jpg?c=2) which is supposed to scare away evil spirits, or the [&quot;Coin Sword&quot;](http://g02.a.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1QlSUKFXXXXbTXFXXq6xXFXXXM/Vintage-Retro-38-font-b-Coins-b-font-23mm-Alloy-Old-Lucky-Feng-Shui-font-b.jpg) which has similar spiritual powers.  Swords made of particular types of wood are also believed to have magical powers and are popularly believed to be useful in exorcism. I don't know how old these traditions are and can't think of any references in Chinese mythology. However, there is one very famous magical construct that is tied in with ancient Chinese mythology: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Lo Shu Square](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lo_Shu_Square) attributed to [Emperor Yu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yu_the_Great). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![The Lo Shu Square at the center of an amulet][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Lo Shu square depicted in a book on magic][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's impossible to know the true origin of this construct, but it does seem to be quite ancient.  Although there is not a lot of readily available documentation on the matter, stories concerning the Yu the Great are well known and appear as early as the first century BC in [Sima Qian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sima_Qian)'s [Records of the Grand Historian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Records_of_the_Grand_Historian).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's not entirely clear what the Lu Shu Square was used for, but Yu was associated flood control, which was and remains *very* important in China, and it seems to be related to [geomancy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomancy).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You may also be interested in [this link](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_spiritual_world_concepts).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/fVR2W.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/5agaP.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8402" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2039" RevisionGUID="2a345bbf-8309-45f3-b99a-21e0e6ece565" CreationDate="2016-10-16T10:47:55.863" UserId="3087" Text="I am new to this site and nut sure whether my question is entirely appropriate. I wanted to know how a melusine could manage to hide their true appearance. How is this post portrayed in the folklore? Is there a magic spell cat upon then that prevents them from exposing their true form, our are they somehow able to dress properly with some fake legs and what not (how would the legs manage to move and disguise the melosine)?&#xA;&#xA;I guess this mythological figure must appear in me than one place, possibly with different renderings.&#xA;&#xA;Reminds me of sexuality and other forms of disguise, which appear in modern society. Interesting.&#xA;&#xA;Anyways, why isn't there a &quot;middle ages&quot; / &quot;middle ages mythology&quot; tag for this site. Maybe someone could create one?&#xA;&#xA;Thanks." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8403" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2039" RevisionGUID="2a345bbf-8309-45f3-b99a-21e0e6ece565" CreationDate="2016-10-16T10:47:55.863" UserId="3087" Text="How can a melusine manage to disguise their true appearance" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8404" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2039" RevisionGUID="2a345bbf-8309-45f3-b99a-21e0e6ece565" CreationDate="2016-10-16T10:47:55.863" UserId="3087" Text="|mythical-creatures|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8405" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2039" RevisionGUID="a97dd1b4-0b2e-45de-9107-abe787b6702d" CreationDate="2016-10-16T10:55:43.487" UserId="3087" Comment="added 30 characters in body; edited title" Text="I am new to this site and nut sure whether my question is entirely appropriate. I wanted to know how a melusine could manage to hide their true appearance. How is this post portrayed in the folklore? Is there a magic spell cat upon then that prevents them from exposing their true form, our are they somehow able to dress properly with some fake legs and what not (how would the legs manage to move and disguise the melosine)?&#xA;&#xA;I guess this mythological figure must appear in me than one place, possibly with different renderings.&#xA;&#xA;Reminds me of sexuality and other forms of disguise, which appear in modern society, as well as many other things. Interesting.&#xA;&#xA;Anyways, why isn't there a &quot;middle ages&quot; / &quot;middle ages mythology&quot; tag for this site. Maybe someone could create one?&#xA;&#xA;Thanks." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8406" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2039" RevisionGUID="a97dd1b4-0b2e-45de-9107-abe787b6702d" CreationDate="2016-10-16T10:55:43.487" UserId="3087" Comment="added 30 characters in body; edited title" Text="How can a melusine manage to disguise their true appearance?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8407" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2039" RevisionGUID="6f0b8439-9681-479c-8472-c2e1d1326982" CreationDate="2016-10-16T11:51:09.447" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 207 characters in body; edited tags" Text="I wanted to know how could a melusine manage to hide their true appearance. How is this portrayed in the folklore? Is there a magic spell cast upon them that prevents them from exposing their true form, or are they somehow able to dress properly with some fake legs and what not (how would the legs manage to move and disguise the melusine)?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I guess this mythological figure must appear in more than one place, possibly with different renderings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Reminds me of sexuality and other forms of disguise, which appear in modern society, as well as many other things. Interesting." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8408" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2039" RevisionGUID="6f0b8439-9681-479c-8472-c2e1d1326982" CreationDate="2016-10-16T11:51:09.447" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 207 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8410" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2040" RevisionGUID="5094e3fe-9cfe-4fec-8d25-d9a2e5571022" CreationDate="2016-10-16T12:17:28.153" UserId="2774" Text="Hopefully this is the right place.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;First you should not say how a melusine could do this or that. Melusine (Mélusine, there is a accent on the 'e', pronounce that like may) is a name in the same range as Medusa, Zeus, or Barrack Obama. So simply Melusine.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;She appears in lots of story, But the &quot;Roman de Mélusine&quot; by Jean d'Arras is the best representation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roman de Mélusine, jean d'Arras&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mélusine is known from this French middle medieval book. Here is a very short summary, with original quote and personal English translation. King Elinas of Albany (ie. Scotland, not modern Albany) meet an incredibly beautiful woman Présine and marry her at the condition he never comes to see her after child birth.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Old French text:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dont, dist la dame, qui bien savoit qu'il estoit espris de s'amour:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Se vous me voulez prendre a femme et jurer que, se nous avons enfans&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ensemble, que vous ne mettrez ja peine de moy veoir en ma gesine, ne&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ne ferez par voye quelconques tant que vous me voiez, je suiz celle&#xD;&#xA;&gt; qui obeiray a vous comme loyal moillier doit obeir a son espoux. Et le&#xD;&#xA;&gt; roy lui jura ainsi.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Modern English: &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So, says the woman, who was knowing pretty well that [Elinas] was in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; love: If you want to take me as a wife and sear that, if we have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; children, that you will not come to see me while I am giving birth, I&#xD;&#xA;&gt; will be the one who will obey to you like a loyal wife should obey her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; spouse. And the king sweared.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately the King has already a son Mataquas which is obviously jealous. Présine got pregnant from THREE girls at the same time. And folloing Mataquas advice the king go to see his wife.&#xD;&#xA;Original French:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Il s'en vint devers le roy son pere, et lui dit: Ma dame la royne&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Presine, vostre femme, vous a apporté les trois plus belles filles qui&#xD;&#xA;&gt; oncques feussent veues. Sire, venez les veoir.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;English:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Mataquas] comes to the King his father, and says: My lady the Queen&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Présine, your wife, bring to you the three most beautiful girls never&#xD;&#xA;&gt; seen. Sire comes to see them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of this 3 girls is Mélusine. So you have to note that she is the daughter of a man (a King), and a obvious fae Présine which is pretty much female in appearance. The two other girls are Mélior and Palestine.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;When they grow older the 3 girls decide to take revenge on their father, locking him in the Northumberland mountain. Présine, curses them for that. And here e have the passage answering your question:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Old French:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mais desormais je te donne le don que tu seras tous les samedis&#xD;&#xA;&gt; serpente du nombril en aval. Mais, se tu treuves homme qui te veuille&#xD;&#xA;&gt; prendre a espouse, que il te convenance que jamais le samedy ne te&#xD;&#xA;&gt; verra, non qu'il te descuevre, ne ne le die a personne, tu vivras&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cours naturel comme femme naturelle, et mourras naturelment.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;English:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But for now, I give you the gift that every saturday you will be a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; snake from the navel to bottom. But if you find a man who which to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; take you as a wife, that he promises you that he will never see you on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; saturday, neither he finds you, nor he says to anyone, you will live&#xD;&#xA;&gt; normally as a normal wife, and die normally.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So Mélusine state is the result of the curse of her own mother Présine, changing her on saturday to have sought revenge on her father. Her sisters are also punished.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;She will spouse king Remondin (or raimondin, modern Raymondin), who will obviously comes to spy her on a saturday and tells what he saw, obliging Mélusine to flee.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Here is Remondin spying Mélusine while she is bathing:&lt;BR&gt;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And Mélusine flying away as a monster after her betrayal (the text is: How Mélusine fly from Remondin in the shape of a snake of the castle of Lusignan by a window) - I picked this one cause it is totally ugly (drawn by a 2 years old monk):&lt;BR&gt;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/cXQGB.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Rr2Nm.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8411" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2040" RevisionGUID="242eecb6-5623-457d-8dd6-3db6a678a395" CreationDate="2016-10-17T11:55:09.590" UserId="2774" Comment="minor corrections" Text="Hopefully this is the right place.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;First you should not say how a melusine could do this or that. Melusine (Mélusine, there is a accent on the 'e', pronounce that like may) is a name in the same range as Medusa, Zeus, or Barrack Obama. So simply Melusine.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;She appears in lots of story, But the &quot;Roman de Mélusine&quot; by Jean d'Arras is the best representation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roman de Mélusine, jean d'Arras&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mélusine is known from this French middle medieval book. Here is a very short summary, with original quote and personal English translation. King Elinas of Albany (ie. Scotland, not modern Albany) meet an incredibly beautiful woman Présine and marry her at the condition he never comes to see her after child birth.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Old French text:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dont, dist la dame, qui bien savoit qu'il estoit espris de s'amour:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Se vous me voulez prendre a femme et jurer que, se nous avons enfans&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ensemble, que vous ne mettrez ja peine de moy veoir en ma gesine, ne&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ne ferez par voye quelconques tant que vous me voiez, je suiz celle&#xD;&#xA;&gt; qui obeiray a vous comme loyal moillier doit obeir a son espoux. Et le&#xD;&#xA;&gt; roy lui jura ainsi.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Modern English: &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So, says the woman, who was knowing pretty well that [Elinas] was in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; love: If you want to take me as a wife and sear that, if we have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; children, that you will not come to see me while I am giving birth, I&#xD;&#xA;&gt; will be the one who will obey to you like a loyal wife should obey her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; spouse. And the king sweared.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note also that this 'de moy veoir en ma gesine&quot; could also safely been translated by &quot;When I have my period&quot; which would make sense with the child bathing scene (could I insist). &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately the King has already a son Mataquas which is obviously jealous. Présine got pregnant from THREE girls at the same time. And following Mataquas advice the king go to see his wife.&#xD;&#xA;Original French:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Il s'en vint devers le roy son pere, et lui dit: Ma dame la royne&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Presine, vostre femme, vous a apporté les trois plus belles filles qui&#xD;&#xA;&gt; oncques feussent veues. Sire, venez les veoir.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;English:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Mataquas] comes to the King his father, and says: My lady the Queen&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Présine, your wife, bring to you the three most beautiful girls never&#xD;&#xA;&gt; seen. Sire comes to see them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of this 3 girls is Mélusine. So you have to note that she is the daughter of a man (a King), and a obvious fae Présine which is pretty much female in appearance. The two other girls are Mélior and Palestine.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;When they grow older the 3 girls decide to take revenge on their father, locking him in the Northumberland mountain. Présine, curses them for that. And here e have the passage answering your question:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Old French:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mais desormais je te donne le don que tu seras tous les samedis&#xD;&#xA;&gt; serpente du nombril en aval. Mais, se tu treuves homme qui te veuille&#xD;&#xA;&gt; prendre a espouse, que il te convenance que jamais le samedy ne te&#xD;&#xA;&gt; verra, non qu'il te descuevre, ne ne le die a personne, tu vivras&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cours naturel comme femme naturelle, et mourras naturelment.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;English:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But for now, I give you the gift that every saturday you will be a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; snake from the navel to bottom. But if you find a man who which to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; take you as a wife, that he promises you that he will never see you on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; saturday, neither he finds you, nor he says to anyone, you will live&#xD;&#xA;&gt; normally as a normal wife, and die normally.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So Mélusine state is the result of the curse of her own mother Présine, changing her on saturday to have sought revenge on her father. Her sisters are also punished.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;She will spouse king Remondin (or raimondin, modern Raymondin), who will obviously comes to spy her (after an advice of his very own brother mentioning she could betray him) on a saturday and tells what he saw, obliging Mélusine to flee.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Here is Remondin spying Mélusine while she is bathing:&lt;BR&gt;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And Mélusine flying away as a monster after her betrayal (the text is: How Mélusine fly from Remondin in the shape of a snake of the castle of Lusignan by a window) - I picked this one cause it is totally ugly (drawn by a 2 years old monk):&lt;BR&gt;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/cXQGB.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Rr2Nm.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8412" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2033" RevisionGUID="7f918fa9-3e8e-4c7e-878f-d4229ee71807" CreationDate="2016-10-17T19:13:04.450" UserId="2774" Comment="Add kitsune illustration" Text="Difficult (interesting) question. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Dakini connection&#xD;&#xA;---------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is an extract of [Chinese Magical Medicine](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/668301.Chinese_Magical_Medicine) by Michel Strickmann implying the direct connection between the Inari and the Dakini (p. 272).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The  “[Dakini](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakini)”  or  “Dagini”  for  which  this  complex  of  modern &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Japanese  possession-rites is named is, of course, the dakini of older&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tantric sources, identified since at least the eighth century with the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fox-phantom. As we have noted, the Chinese linking of the voracious&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and ill-omened dakini-demonesses with the fox was based on their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Indian associations with the jackal. In medi­eval Japan, it became&#xD;&#xA;&gt; customary to identify figures from the complex Indian pantheon of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tantric Buddhism with native deities (rather like the interpret at&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ioromana in the world of late antiquity). Thus it was natural for this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; interpretatio nipponica to see in the supernatural fox-dakini the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; original of Japan’s own [Inari](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inari_%C5%8Ckami), a god of rice cultivation often&#xD;&#xA;&gt; depicted in vulpine form.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now why the Dakini. The Dakini is a Tantric Buddhist monster. It appears in the Mahavairocana Tantra and he (the Dakini) is overwhelmed by Mahavairocana Buddha and (s)he rides a jackal. The text is well known in Japan (as Mahavairocana sutra).&lt;BR&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that the Dakini is present in numerous Indian stories with lots of variants... LOTS of (including sex, appeance, attributes, malvolence). It is also known in Tibetan version. Jackal being unknown in China and Japan, they translated by another small canine fox.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Note also that the Inari appears to be from an old local Japanese tradition, it later been related to fox (around the 12th century) before joining more or then with the Dakini. The Inari also has the particularity to not be well defined, especially if (s)he is male or female. The blur with mysterious Dakini is quite obvious (Hence why be wary of my claim about one version specifically of the Dakini, or to compare too much the Inari and Dakini, or even Dakini and Dakini-Ten).&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;So the local deity Inari is identified by the Buddhist Indian Dakini to some extend. Here is the Japanese Dakini-ten riding her legendary fox (I pick this one because it is a gorgeous one, notice the small rice sheaf in her hand) (Note also it exists a [male version][1] of Dakini-ten, carrying a sword/weapon instead of a sheaf of rice):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Kitsune&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now regarding the [Kitsune](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsune)/[Daji](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daji). Here is from the [Cult of the Fox](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4637840-the-cult-of-the-fox) by Xiaofei Kang (p234, note 13):&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The fox motif in stories of Reynard and the fables of Aesop have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; appeared frequently in European paintings and architecture since the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 13th[...](such) tales are found in all countries of Europe, including&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Russia and the Near and Middle East. The motif of the fox wife [ie&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Daji/Kitsune, note by me] wa salso found in Chinese and Japanese&#xD;&#xA;&gt; folklore and accross the Berling Strait among the Eskimos in North&#xD;&#xA;&gt; America.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Tales of Reynard is a Medieval French book telling the adventures of Reynard. In modern French, fox is *renard*, and the novel is *Roman de Renard*, where the main character, Renard was a *goupil* (ancient French word for fox). The novel was so popular that foxes are now called *renard* and no more *goupil*.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is no a kitsune from a japanese temple:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Notice the kitsune DOES not is a nine tail creature, only one tail. Notice also the sheaf of rice in his snout! In japan you will find kitsune garding Inari's temple.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, there is no connection implied between India and Daji/Kitsune. They are from local Chinese tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tamamo-No-Mae&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is now an example of a &quot;true&quot; Kitsune story (I mean by true, from japanese culture, not that you will find a kitsune as your girl next door).&#xD;&#xA;I push you first [there][4], where you will find a resume of the original text as well as very beautiful original drawings.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;See here some japanese warriors hunting an innocent two-tailed fox (The site I linked give you the Otogizoshi, browse it for the text and marvelous illustrations):[![enter image description here][5]][5]&#xD;&#xA;The story goes like that (short summary): Tamama-no-mae is the favourite concubine of Emperor Toba-no-in, reputed for her extreme beauty, marvelous scent as well as incredible cleverness. But unfortunately she is in fact a terrible kitsune.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Later tradition, not the Otogizochi, will link her to Chinese princess Daji, possessed by a fox spirit, due to the similitude in story. Now Daji story predating Tamamo story there is still a chance this is a port.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And here is the thing, all of that is buddhist in nature. And buddhism comes from India, so most of the time, you find those creatures (princess Daji, or Tamamo) mentioned as &quot;coming form India&quot; (Note that the Otogizoshi does not, she is Japanese, period). But one as to not see that as &quot;coming from true India&quot; but much more a way for Chinese and Japanese to mention something exotic. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-jT5mXj2kgzA/UxOHvsw1ntI/AAAAAAAAD40/ezuIQVqDeSs/s1600/dakiniten2.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/fgdX7.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/DwLtn.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://edb.kulib.kyoto-u.ac.jp/exhibit-e/otogi/tamamo/tamamo.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ZVS6Q.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8413" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2033" RevisionGUID="5466b487-9795-4b9a-b214-7016c7a1360d" CreationDate="2016-10-17T19:29:04.360" UserId="2774" Comment="add more on kitsune and tamamo no mae" Text="Difficult (interesting) question. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Dakini connection&#xD;&#xA;---------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is an extract of [Chinese Magical Medicine](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/668301.Chinese_Magical_Medicine) by Michel Strickmann implying the direct connection between the Inari and the Dakini (p. 272).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The  “[Dakini](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakini)”  or  “Dagini”  for  which  this  complex  of  modern &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Japanese  possession-rites is named is, of course, the dakini of older&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tantric sources, identified since at least the eighth century with the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fox-phantom. As we have noted, the Chinese linking of the voracious&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and ill-omened dakini-demonesses with the fox was based on their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Indian associations with the jackal. In medi­eval Japan, it became&#xD;&#xA;&gt; customary to identify figures from the complex Indian pantheon of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tantric Buddhism with native deities (rather like the interpret at&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ioromana in the world of late antiquity). Thus it was natural for this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; interpretatio nipponica to see in the supernatural fox-dakini the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; original of Japan’s own [Inari](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inari_%C5%8Ckami), a god of rice cultivation often&#xD;&#xA;&gt; depicted in vulpine form.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now why the Dakini. The Dakini is a Tantric Buddhist monster. It appears in the Mahavairocana Tantra and he (the Dakini) is overwhelmed by Mahavairocana Buddha and (s)he rides a jackal. The text is well known in Japan (as Mahavairocana sutra).&lt;BR&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that the Dakini is present in numerous Indian stories with lots of variants... LOTS of (including sex, appeance, attributes, malvolence). It is also known in Tibetan version. Jackal being unknown in China and Japan, they translated by another small canine fox.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Note also that the Inari appears to be from an old local Japanese tradition, it later been related to fox (around the 12th century) before joining more or then with the Dakini. The Inari also has the particularity to not be well defined, especially if (s)he is male or female. The blur with mysterious Dakini is quite obvious (Hence why be wary of my claim about one version specifically of the Dakini, or to compare too much the Inari and Dakini, or even Dakini and Dakini-Ten).&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;So the local deity Inari is identified by the Buddhist Indian Dakini to some extend. Here is the Japanese Dakini-ten riding her legendary fox (I pick this one because it is a gorgeous one, notice the small rice sheaf in her hand) (Note also it exists a [male version][1] of Dakini-ten, carrying a sword/weapon instead of a sheaf of rice):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Kitsune&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now regarding the [Kitsune](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsune)/[Huli jing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huli_jing)([princess Daji](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daji)). Here is from the [Cult of the Fox](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4637840-the-cult-of-the-fox) by Xiaofei Kang (p234, note 13):&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The fox motif in stories of Reynard and the fables of Aesop have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; appeared frequently in European paintings and architecture since the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 13th[...](such) tales are found in all countries of Europe, including&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Russia and the Near and Middle East. The motif of the fox wife [ie&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Daji/Kitsune, note by me] wa salso found in Chinese and Japanese&#xD;&#xA;&gt; folklore and accross the Berling Strait among the Eskimos in North&#xD;&#xA;&gt; America.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Tales of Reynard is a Medieval French book telling the adventures of Reynard. In modern French, fox is *renard*, and the novel is *Roman de Renard*, where the main character, Renard was a *goupil* (ancient French word for fox). The novel was so popular that foxes are now called *renard* and no more *goupil*.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is now a kitsune from a japanese temple:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Notice the kitsune DOES not have nine tails, only one tail on this statue. Notice also the sheaf of rice in his snout! In japan you will find kitsune garding Inari's temple. So don't assume the Chinese Huli jing and the japanese kitsune are strictly speaking the same creature. The kitsune is more than probably a port of the former, but it evolves quite differently.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, there is no connection implied between India and Daji/Kitsune. They are from local Chinese tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tamamo-No-Mae&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is now an example of a &quot;true&quot; Kitsune story (I mean by true, from japanese culture, not that you will find a kitsune as your girl next door).&#xD;&#xA;I push you first [there][4], where you will find a resume of the original text as well as very beautiful original drawings.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;See here some japanese warriors hunting an innocent two-tailed fox (The site I linked give you the Otogizoshi, browse it for the text and marvelous illustrations):[![enter image description here][5]][5]&#xD;&#xA;The story goes like that (short summary): Tamama-no-mae is the favourite concubine of Emperor Toba-no-in, reputed for her extreme beauty, marvelous scent as well as incredible cleverness. But unfortunately she is in fact a terrible kitsune.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Later tradition, not the Otogizochi, will link her to Chinese princess Daji, possessed by a fox spirit, due to the similitude in story. Now Daji story predating Tamamo story there is still a chance this is a port.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And here is the thing, all of that is buddhist in nature. And buddhism comes from India, so most of the time, you find those creatures (princess Daji, or Tamamo) mentioned as &quot;coming form India&quot; (Note that the Otogizoshi does not, she is Japanese, period). But one as to not see that as &quot;coming from true India&quot; but much more a way for Chinese and Japanese to mention something exotic.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Tamamo is still an incredibly popular character, you find her haunting dozen of modern stories, novels, mangas and video games:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][6]][6]&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Here is a VERY nice modern representation. I push you to notice the 9 tails. Modern japanese does not know their own folklore ;D&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-jT5mXj2kgzA/UxOHvsw1ntI/AAAAAAAAD40/ezuIQVqDeSs/s1600/dakiniten2.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/fgdX7.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/DwLtn.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://edb.kulib.kyoto-u.ac.jp/exhibit-e/otogi/tamamo/tamamo.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ZVS6Q.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/hvFTa.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8414" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2041" RevisionGUID="2baedbea-e450-4c9e-8dd9-81dc8b8388ec" CreationDate="2016-10-17T22:47:00.713" UserId="292" Text="Presumably when people starting putting together all the local stories that would become &quot;Greek myth&quot; it turned out that Zeus had slept with a lot of women, in some rather odd guises. These may have made sense as part of some local cult, but as part of a human-shaped god's mythos they seem pretty weird.  &#xD;&#xA;Also, gods disguising themselves to rape a goddess or mortal woman wasn't limited to Zeus, although he used that trick a lot. (Poseidon, for example, disguised himself as a stallion after Demeter tried to hide from him by becoming a mare. Whether you see this as a rationalization of an older cult or a sneaky god trick is up to you.)  &#xD;&#xA;Zeus &quot;seduced&quot; his future wife, Hera, in the form of a [bedraggled cuckoo][1], which she pitied and took to her breast, so he resumed his normal form and well... raped her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.greekmythology.com/Olympians/Hera/hera.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8416" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2042" RevisionGUID="c24b8879-7890-4aff-96d9-abed871f624b" CreationDate="2016-10-19T05:34:37.980" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="In the Lokasenna,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Loki responds in the stanza 34, stating that &quot;from here you were sent east as hostage to the gods&quot; (a reference to the Æsir-Vanir War) and that &quot;the daughters of Hymir used you as a pisspot, and pissed in your mouth.&quot;[9]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nj%C3%B6r%C3%B0r#Poetic_Edda&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Loki spake:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;34. &quot;Be silent, Njorth; | thou wast eastward sent,&#xD;&#xA;To the gods as a hostage given;&#xD;&#xA;And the daughters of Hymir | their privy had&#xD;&#xA;When use did they make of thy mouth.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;source:https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda/Lokasenna&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why did the daughters of Hymir urinate in Njord's mouth? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8417" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2042" RevisionGUID="c24b8879-7890-4aff-96d9-abed871f624b" CreationDate="2016-10-19T05:34:37.980" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Why did the daughters of Hymir urinate in Njord's mouth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8418" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2042" RevisionGUID="c24b8879-7890-4aff-96d9-abed871f624b" CreationDate="2016-10-19T05:34:37.980" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="|norse|lokasenna|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8419" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2043" RevisionGUID="ec502c67-32c1-4118-9c11-42a6c1330c2e" CreationDate="2016-10-19T19:41:40.063" UserId="3092" Text="The Celtic Cernunnos, the Greek Dionysus, the Slavic Veles and Vedic Shiva have snake and bull among their symbols.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why these two symbols tend to come together?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It looks to me that these deities share also some other similarities. They tend to be somehow associated with the Moon, underworld, fertility, knowledge (magic).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although, if we take other characteristic into account, we would probably replace Dionysus by Hermes. Hermes is not associated with bull but he is associated with snakes, knowledge, underworld.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8420" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2043" RevisionGUID="ec502c67-32c1-4118-9c11-42a6c1330c2e" CreationDate="2016-10-19T19:41:40.063" UserId="3092" Text="Why snake (serpent) and bull are often come together as symbols of deities?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8421" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2043" RevisionGUID="ec502c67-32c1-4118-9c11-42a6c1330c2e" CreationDate="2016-10-19T19:41:40.063" UserId="3092" Text="|comparative|underworld|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8422" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2044" RevisionGUID="7bce1fce-1e02-4076-816c-e840dbf3b768" CreationDate="2016-10-19T20:48:57.373" UserId="2892" Text="I suspect it has to do with the function of heroes to &quot;tame the landscape&quot; and render locales safe for humans by slaying monsters, similar to Theseus on his journey to Athens and Heracles with many of his tasks.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Challenging the rule of heaven is a theme in the Epic of Gilgamesh--he also rejects Ishtar and is undaunted by her fury.  It's worth noting that the gods don't act against Gilgamesh directly, but punish him by slaying his mortal friend Enkidu.  Thus it is possible Gilgamesh is powerful enough to act with impunity, similar to Heracles, although unlike the Greek demi-god, he is unable to conquer death.      &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hubris also seems to be a theme of the epic, if I can borrow a concept from the Greek, so perhaps the slaying is intentionally transgressive. Certainly it marks the turning point in the narrative arc and leads to the downfall of both heroes.       &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Peer pressure may be a factor as Enkidu also eggs Gilgamesh on when he hesitates.  Although I don't trust any translation fully due to the imprecision of the art and degree of latitude translators can take, particularly with work from this period and region, the text I quote below suggests that Enkidu chides Gilgamesh that to spare a prisoner is against the dictates of fate, and warns Gilgamesh that if they don't kill Humbaba, there will be repercussions:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And of Gilgamesh, son of Ninsun,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now is his heart moved to pity.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; To his servant Enkidu, he spoke these words:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'Enkidu, a caught bird -&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ought he not to return to the arms of his mother?'&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Enkidu interrupted him:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'But you, should you be taken prisoner,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; You will not return to the arms of your mother.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Who has ever seen the hands of a prisoner of war unbound?&#xD;&#xA;&gt; An imprisoned priest returned to the temple residence?&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A lukur-priestess returned to her pleasures?&#xD;&#xA;&gt; If you set him free,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He will obstruct the way up the mountain,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He will make the footpath impassable up the mountain.'&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Epic of Gilgamesh by Robert Temple](http://www.angelfire.com/tx/gatestobabylon/temple1.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;__________________&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*&lt;sup&gt;(Note: I grabbed an easily accessible on-line translation from 1991 and apologize if there are any inaccuracies compared to the 2003 George, which is excellent, although my personal favorite is still the Gardner. :)&lt;/sup&gt;*" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8423" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2045" RevisionGUID="c40c3f8f-e8d1-4078-9357-5e44f26e5417" CreationDate="2016-10-19T21:55:12.287" UserId="2892" Text="Time and chronology tend to be fairly loose in Greek mythology, particularly as there are usually multiple authors treating the same subjects.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regardless, Achilles is presumed to be a youth at the start of the war.  In this famous vase painting, he is depicted as beardless:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Achilles tending Patroclus wounded by an arrow, identified by inscriptions on the upper part of the vase. Tondo of an Attic red-figure kylix, ca. 500 BC. From Vulci.][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*You will recall that Cúchulainn, a warrior of similar prowess and invincibility, is also noted to be beardless during the action of the Táin, which causes some warriors to balk at dueling him. [In this passage](https://books.google.com/books?id=h-WoRsfK99UC&amp;pg=PA134&amp;lpg=PA134&amp;dq=cuchullain+berry+juice+beard&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=u4lv8eVPwx&amp;sig=ooCIT5O7EQsDf8pKJXdYNAJbUh8&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjz75PK6-fPAhUGeD4KHQjAAA0Q6AEIJDAC#v=onepage&amp;q=cuchullain%20berry%20juice%20beard&amp;f=false) he resorts to using berry juice and grass to fake a beard.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also the very well known story from several post-Homeric sources of [Thetis spiriting Achilles away to Skyros](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles#Other_stories) to dress as a girl and hide among the women.  This implies he has to be young enough to pass for a girl. Achilles was also said to have fathered Neoptolemus there, but I'd caution against imposing contemporary mores in terms of appropriate ages for fatherhood.  He could have just hit puberty when he conceives his son.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My best guess is that he would have been in his early teens at the outset of the war. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/m6GLX.jpg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8424" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2045" RevisionGUID="4ff71276-d3f8-477a-acfc-06c36f34ecd8" CreationDate="2016-10-20T00:30:50.447" UserId="2892" Comment="Cited the passage from the Tain I reference and added a link for more info on the vase. I plan to provide citations for the Skyros legend shortly." Text="Time and chronology tend to be fairly loose in Greek mythology, particularly as there are usually multiple authors treating the same subjects.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regardless, Achilles is presumed to be a youth at the start of the war.  In this famous vase painting, he is depicted as beardless:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Achilles tending Patroclus wounded by an arrow, identified by inscriptions on the upper part of the vase. Tondo of an Attic red-figure kylix, ca. 500 BC. From Vulci.][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[You can read more about this vase at the Perseus site at Tufts.](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/artifact?name=Berlin+F+2278&amp;object=Vase)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*You will recall that Cúchulainn, a warrior of similar prowess and invincibility, is also noted to be beardless during the action of the Táin, which causes some warriors to balk at dueling him. [In this passage](https://books.google.com/books?id=h-WoRsfK99UC&amp;pg=PA134&amp;dq=cuchullain+berry+juice+beard+fistful+of+grass&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiSsZ73j-jPAhUBJx4KHV0XDboQ6AEINjAA#v=onepage&amp;q=cuchullain%20berry%20juice%20beard%20fistful%20of%20grass&amp;f=false) he resorts to using berry juice and grass to fake a beard. [The Tain, Kinsella, p.134]*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also the very well known story from several post-Homeric sources of [Thetis spiriting Achilles away to Skyros](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles#Other_stories) to dress as a girl and hide among the women.  This implies he has to be young enough to pass for a girl. Achilles was also said to have fathered Neoptolemus there, but I'd caution against imposing contemporary mores in terms of appropriate ages for fatherhood.  He could have just hit puberty when he conceives his son.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My best guess is that he would have been in his mid-teens at the outset of the war, but he certainly could have been a few years younger or even as old as his early twenties.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/m6GLX.jpg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8425" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2043" RevisionGUID="bdf0159f-4b78-44ea-be7d-6f7eb13f4f85" CreationDate="2016-10-20T00:43:13.377" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8426" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2045" RevisionGUID="60ee97f6-04a7-459a-80f6-661530a1d811" CreationDate="2016-10-20T01:27:53.527" UserId="2892" Comment="Added a mention from Graves per the exact age, and a Greek term for &quot;youth&quot; Homer uses in a key passage." Text="Time and chronology tend to be fairly loose in Greek mythology, particularly as there are usually multiple authors treating the same subjects.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regardless, Achilles is presumed to be a youth at the start of the war.  In this famous vase painting, he is depicted as beardless:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Achilles tending Patroclus wounded by an arrow, identified by inscriptions on the upper part of the vase. Tondo of an Attic red-figure kylix, ca. 500 BC. From Vulci.][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[You can read more about this vase at the Perseus site at Tufts.](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/artifact?name=Berlin+F+2278&amp;object=Vase)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You may recall that Cúchulainn, a warrior of similar prowess and invincibility, is also noted to be beardless during the action of the Táin, which causes some warriors to balk at dueling him. [In this passage](https://books.google.com/books?id=h-WoRsfK99UC&amp;pg=PA134&amp;dq=cuchullain+berry+juice+beard+fistful+of+grass&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiSsZ73j-jPAhUBJx4KHV0XDboQ6AEINjAA#v=onepage&amp;q=cuchullain%20berry%20juice%20beard%20fistful%20of%20grass&amp;f=false) he resorts to using berry juice and grass to fake a beard. [The Tain, Kinsella, p.134]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both Achilles and Cúchulainn performed amazing martial feats in childhood--the latter killed the monstrous hound from which his name derives, and the former was said to have killed his first boar by age 6. Thus extreme youth, as early as 11 or 12, is not implausible for Achilles at the outset of the war.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also the very well known story from several post-Homeric sources of [Thetis spiriting Achilles away to Skyros](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles#Other_stories) to dress as a girl and hide among the women there as a way of avoiding his tragic fate were he to sail to Troy.  When Nestor, Ajax and Odysseus went to suss him out, it is mentioned they never would have pierced the disguise had Odysseus not tricked him into revealing himself.  (Legend holds that Odysseus dumped out a pile of gifts for the girls, but also included a shield and spear, which Achilles seized, stripping himself to the waist.  [The Greek Myths, Graves, 160k]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This implies he has to be young enough to pass for a girl. Unless Achilles was extremely feminine, a possible implication is that his voice had not yet changed.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Achilles was also said to have fathered Neoptolemus at Skyros, but I'd caution against imposing contemporary mores in terms of appropriate ages for fatherhood.  He could have just hit puberty when he conceives his son.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Robert Graves mentions the age of 15, citing Homer himself [The Greek Myths, Graves, 160.l], but I haven't been able to track down the exact passage—the version of the Iliad Graves was working from may have had different numbering. However, he does lead to some useful passages.  In one, Phoenix says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  It was to thee that the old horseman Peleus sent me on the day when he sent thee to Agamemnon, forth from Phthia, [440] a mere child, knowing naught as yet of evil war...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Iliad, Murray, ix.438-440](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D417)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is interesting about that passage, when you go to Greek, is that Homer uses the term [νήπιον](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=nh%2Fpion&amp;la=greek&amp;can=nh%2Fpion0&amp;prior=pe/mpe&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0133:book=9:card=417&amp;i=1#lexicon) which not only means child, but in some cases, specifically a pre-pubescent child. *(The LSJ entry from the word link makes direct reference to this passage in the Iliad.)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My best guess is that he would have been in his mid-teens at the outset of the war, but he certainly could have been a few years younger or older.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the age of Paris, that's much more of a rabbit hole. However, based on the age differential you mention, we can infer that he was in his late twenties to his mid-thirties.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;__________________________________&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Hope this answer provides some satisfaction.  I'll continue to try and hunt down the mystery passage cited by Graves.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/m6GLX.jpg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8427" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2046" RevisionGUID="2a1a40ce-6d65-48aa-8194-51394585518a" CreationDate="2016-10-20T12:39:02.117" UserId="3094" Text="If you read stanza 33 and 35 you'll have more clues. &#xD;&#xA;Hymirs daughters are the names of different waves. In Hymirs poem they travel to Eliwaves. The water in Eliwaves gets heated(the source of Vergelmer) by Muspelheim. If you cross Eliwaves you will come to the kingdom of giants. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Well. Urine contains inorganic salts etc. So, if the daughters(waves) do not &quot;piss&quot; in Njorth's mouth you will not have saltwater, right? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One reason to use salt in boiling water is to increase the boiling point of the water. So the water will have a higher temperature. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Salted water actually boils more quickly. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Salt may help protect metal pots from corrosion. &#xD;&#xA;Salt also affects flavor. Affects flavor of mead maybe? Njorth is also father of Frey, Frey who is the king of Elves, Elves is a type of soil. If you poor water in to soil you will eventually see plants grow. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But you can also read it from other perspectives as well! ;) " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8428" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2047" RevisionGUID="21304a04-232f-467f-8229-28bbf133f6e1" CreationDate="2016-10-20T13:11:03.927" UserId="2774" Text="Yeah...&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now I don't like to give any answer to such an old thing, but here it is. What you cite is the Nineveh's version of the traditional Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh. But what you have to see is first the Epic per se comes in several versions (included partial Hittite ones, somehow different) but the Epic is borrowing from older traditions. Here Sumerian.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Huwawa the ogre&#xD;&#xA;---------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Sumerians built in their time 2 great cycles/stories/matters/epics (call that as you want, I will use cycle here). The first cycle is the cycle of Aratta which detail the relationship/war between the city of Aratta and the city of Ur. One of key character is the Hero Lugalbanda (which is the father of Gilgamesh). The second cycle is precisely the cycle of Gilgamesh. And in this cycle one of the deed of Gilgamesh is his fight with a specific ogre like creature Huwawa (the Sumerian version of the Babylonian Umbaba). &lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The story goes like this: Giglamesh decides to visit the forest of cedar with his friend/budy/slave Enkidu (in this story Enkidu is referred as *slave*). When they arrive there, they fall asleep, all except Enkidu. He manages to get Gilgamesh waking up, and Gilgamesh is seriously pissed off. Enkidu tries to calm him, but without success, knowing what lies behind. &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;There they finally discover the source of the problem: The ogre Huwawa which is surrounded with no more that 7 auras of terror... And then thing become amusing, judge:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  [Gilgamesh says to Huwawa:] No one really knows where in the mountains you live; they would like to know where in the mountains you live. Here, I have brought you En-me-barage-si, my big sister, to be your wife in the mountains.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This passage does seem pretty serious. Except when you know who is the so called Enmebaragesi, which in matter of a potential Gilgamesh's cute sister is the former king of Kish, father of Ata, arch enemy of Gilgamesh! Appreciate Sumerian humouresque side and Gilgamesh's fainting of terror.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;So Gilgamesh will keep mocking up the poor Huwawa by offering completely stupid gifts each time removing one of his terror uptil the moment Huwawa has nothing left. Then: *[Gilgamesh] made as if to kiss him, but then punched him on the cheek with his fist.* And thus: *Ḫuwawa clutched at Gilgamesh's hand, and prostrated himself before him.*&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Then you have the final reversal:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Huwawa addressed Enkidu: &quot;Enkidu, you speak such hateful words against&#xD;&#xA;&gt; me to [Gilgamesh]!&quot; (...) As Ḫuwawa spoke thus to him, Enkidu,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; full of rage and anger, cut his throat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So that the original [abridged by me] story (at least in one of its version). The important elements are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Huwawa stripping its power (reminiscent of Inanna's stripping of power when she tried to rule the Abzu (Hell)). Notice something truly amusing, Gilgamesh stays perfectly calm in front of him and manages to abuse Huwawa pretty easily. Despite the auras of horror.&#xD;&#xA; - Enkidu's reversal attitude: He starts by doing its best to wisely prevent Gilgamesh to go to see Huwawa and finally is the one slaughtering the poor Huwawa&#xD;&#xA; - Huwawa which is presented as an horrifying monster but just seem a lonely naive creature who believe Giglamesh a little bit too fast (Once again Inanna will fall to such a trick)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is variants both in Huwawa's story and Humbaba story of the way he is killed but that is merely details.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mesopotamian myths&#xD;&#xA;------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now truly understanding Mesopotamia's time is hard (Leo Oppenheim mentioned that having a vision of Mesopotamian religion is illusory at best, while doing it in the same book anyway). Mesopotamia is full of ambivalence. Inanna (Ishtar) is probably the best example. Her interventions during the cycle of Aratta is emblematic of that. This is to the point you start to ask yourself what she does exactly, because when she finally sides with Ur, Enmershikar is almost already victorious. To the point you see she sides with you when you have so proved yourself to her that you ask yourself why you would even need her help! I give you this short insight here on Inanna just because it shows Mesopotamian subtlety. This beautiful subtlety is all around Huwawa story. Huwawa is truly terrifying still it is difficult to not feel sorry for him. Gilgamesh seems totally immune to Huwawa's power, when Enkidu has proven resisting better than Gilgamesh, still you see Gilgamesh trying its best to strip Huwawa's power. At no time the text makes Gilgamesh emphasize how he is mocking Huwawa, but a remote knowledge of Sumerian myth make that clear (I mean... EVERY Sumerians was undoubtedly laughing when Gilgamesh propose Enmebaragesi as a wife). Enkidu at first sage, wise and scared actually slaughters the poor Huwawa out of rage. You have lots of Sumerian theme beginning by the reversal which makes a story begin with one character (as the legendary king Enmerkar) and keep going with another character (the hero Lugalbanda). You have such a typical example here where the story lets you believe that Gilgamesh will do the job, when Enkidu actually slaughters the monster. It is reminiscent of one of Sumerian favourite stories the dialogue/dispute: 2 things/characters fighting to know which/who is the best.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Let me finish by giving you this insight of Mesopotamian literature. We have a letter sent by a son to his mother while she is without news. The letter contains an incredibly long description of the mother for the messenger to find her. 50 lines. Then comes the text of the letter, appreciate:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When thanks to the descriptions I have given you, you stand in her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; radiant presence, tell her: &quot;Your beloved son, Lu-dignira is in good&#xD;&#xA;&gt; health&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Appreciate here the incredible beauty of Sumerian poetry &quot;Lu-dignira is in good health&quot;...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Epic of Gilgamesh&#xD;&#xA;-----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Epic built on that story, you find Enkidu, still alive, warning non stop Gilgamesh about the danger of Humbaba. Then the fight, the Epic presents differently, as the writers noticed Huwawa does not seem so terrible and made the episode longer and Humbaba a little bit more scary (This time Gilgamesh needs the help of his mother, he cannot simply openly mock the poor Huwawa). But basically Humbaba being Huwawa is ought to die. Huwawa received no mercy, Humbaba has the exact same fate. enkidu who was wisely preventing Gilgamesh to not face Huwawa will dot the same, and with same consequence he is uterly the one directly responsible of Huwawa/humbaba's death. Gilgamesh and Enkidu will face the wrath of Enlil because in the original story... they did. There is one difference: Enkidu will pay more in the Epic than the Sumerian stories. but this is where the Epic start to go its way.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8429" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2043" RevisionGUID="4abec1b1-d1ae-4d86-95e5-131a0c8da8d1" CreationDate="2016-10-20T18:21:24.073" UserId="2892" Comment="Fixed grammar where it was warranted." Text="The Celtic Cernunnos, the Greek Dionysus, the Slavic Veles and Vedic Shiva have snake and bull among their symbols.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why do these two symbols tend to come together?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It looks to me as though these deities also share some other similarities. They tend to be somehow associated with the Moon, the underworld, fertility, and knowledge (magic).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although, if we take other characteristic into account, we would probably replace Dionysus with Hermes. Hermes is not associated with the bull but he is associated with snakes, knowledge, and the underworld.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8430" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2043" RevisionGUID="4abec1b1-d1ae-4d86-95e5-131a0c8da8d1" CreationDate="2016-10-20T18:21:24.073" Comment="Proposed by 2892 approved by 183 edit id of 379" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8431" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2048" RevisionGUID="eaf7cb1e-c9f7-44f6-8f9c-cda3c422c16b" CreationDate="2016-10-21T15:15:26.330" UserId="2892" Text="I'm specifically wondering about the depictions of Beggar So in popular culture, such as his portrayal by the inimitable [Yuen Siu-tien](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuen_Siu-tien). For instance:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Li Tienguai has a magic medicine gourd; Beggar So is often depicted with a wine gourd. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Li Tienguai was said to have transmigrated into the body of a beggar.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Both Li and So are itinerant. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any information on this subject is welcome, including from the oral tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;*I find this subject extraordinarily interesting because Chinese cinema seems to provide a unique, documentable look into how historical and semi-historical figures are mythologized over the course of a few generations.  I suspect it's a process similar to the formation of the [Icelandic Sagas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagas_of_Icelanders), both in terms of time-span from history to legend, and in taking shape in the context of new medium (i.e. prose narrative in the case of the sagas.)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*[Wong Fei-hung](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wong_Fei-hung) is obviously the leading example.  Unlike Beggar So, we we can actually trace Wong's the lineage from the historical person to his student, [Lam Sai-Wing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lam_Sai-wing), to Lam's student to Lau Cham, who then appears in the [Kwan Tak-Hing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwan_Tak-hing) series playing his real-life [Sifu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sifu), Lam. Lau Cham is, of course, the father of [Lau Kar-leung](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lau_Kar-leung), who himself directed multiple films about his &quot;great-grand-Sifu&quot;.  (Both the Laus and the Yuens were enormously influential choreography families, and both spawned significant directors in the Kung Fu movie genre, [Yuen Woo-ping](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuen_Woo-ping), the son of Yuen Siu-tien, being perhaps the most famous.)* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*For those not familiar with this material, it's a pretty safe bet that there have been more movies made about Wong Fei-hung than all of the Western superhero movies combined.  I feel I have to strongly make the point that this is NOT &quot;fictional mythology&quot; such as with genre literature, but real mythology forming in modern and contemporary times. As far as I can tell, there is nothing in the West with this scope or scale--Kwan is said to have played Wong in excess of 70 times, and he's just one actor.  Although there are far too many films about Wong to name, he was notably portrayed by Jet Li in numerous films, and likewise by Jackie Chan in his famous [Drunken Master](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drunken_Master) series, incidentally co-starring with Yuen Siu-tien as Beggar So in the first installment.* " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8432" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2048" RevisionGUID="eaf7cb1e-c9f7-44f6-8f9c-cda3c422c16b" CreationDate="2016-10-21T15:15:26.330" UserId="2892" Text="To what degree are depictions of Beggar So influenced by the immortal Li Tieguai?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8433" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2048" RevisionGUID="eaf7cb1e-c9f7-44f6-8f9c-cda3c422c16b" CreationDate="2016-10-21T15:15:26.330" UserId="2892" Text="|chinese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8434" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2047" RevisionGUID="534a8409-50ed-44d2-bc8f-cf4f743e0d6c" CreationDate="2016-10-22T06:55:39.593" UserId="2892" Comment="I edited typos where I could, using the lightest touch possible so as not to alter the intent. B/c of that, there are still some unclear sentences. Hopefully Gib will give it another pass, since there is some interesting info." Text="Yeah...&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now I don't like to give any answer to such an old thing, but here it is: What you cite is the Nineveh's version of the traditional Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh. But what you have to see first is that the Epic per se comes in several versions (included partial Hittite ones, somehow different) and the Epic is borrowing from older traditions. Here is the Sumerian:&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Huwawa the ogre&#xD;&#xA;---------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Sumerians built in their time 2 great cycles/stories/matters/epics (call that as you want, I will use cycle here). The first cycle is the cycle of Aratta which detail the relationship/war between the city of Aratta and the city of Ur. One of key characters is the hero Lugalbanda (who is the father of Gilgamesh). The second cycle is precisely the cycle of Gilgamesh. And in this cycle one of the deeds of Gilgamesh is his fight with a specific ogre like creature Huwawa (the Sumerian version of the Babylonian Umbaba). &lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The story goes like this: Giglamesh decides to visit the forest of cedar with his friend/budy/slave Enkidu (in this story Enkidu is referred as *slave*). When they arrive there, they fall asleep, all except Enkidu. He manages to get Gilgamesh to wake up, and Gilgamesh is seriously pissed off. Enkidu tries to calm him, but without success, knowing what lies behind. &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;There they finally discover the source of the problem: The ogre Huwawa who is surrounded with no more that 7 auras of terror... And then the thing become amusing, judge:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  [Gilgamesh says to Huwawa:] No one really knows where in the mountains you live; they would like to know where in the mountains you live. Here, I have brought you En-me-barage-si, my big sister, to be your wife in the mountains.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This passage does seem pretty serious. Except when you know who is the so called Enmebaragesi, which in matter of a potential Gilgamesh's cute sister is the former king of Kish, father of Ata, arch enemy of Gilgamesh! Appreciate Sumerian humouresque side and Gilgamesh's fainting of terror.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;So Gilgamesh will keep mocking up the poor Huwawa by offering completely stupid gifts each time removing one of his terror until the moment Huwawa has nothing left. Then: *[Gilgamesh] made as if to kiss him, but then punched him on the cheek with his fist.* And thus: *Ḫuwawa clutched at Gilgamesh's hand, and prostrated himself before him.*&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Then you have the final reversal:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Huwawa addressed Enkidu: &quot;Enkidu, you speak such hateful words against&#xD;&#xA;&gt; me to [Gilgamesh]!&quot; (...) As Ḫuwawa spoke thus to him, Enkidu,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; full of rage and anger, cut his throat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So that is the original [abridged by me] story (at least in one of its versions). The important elements are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Huwawa stripping its power (reminiscent of Inanna's stripping of power when she tried to rule the Abzu (Hell)). Notice something truly amusing, Gilgamesh stays perfectly calm in front of him and manages to abuse Huwawa pretty easily,  despite the auras of horror.&#xD;&#xA; - Enkidu's reversal attitude: He starts by doing his best to wisely prevent Gilgamesh to go to see Huwawa and finally is the one slaughtering the poor Huwawa&#xD;&#xA; - Huwawa which is presented as an horrifying monster but just seem a lonely naive creature who believed Giglamesh a little bit too fast (Once again Inanna will fall to such a trick).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are variants both in Huwawa's story and Humbaba story of the way he is killed but that is merely details.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mesopotamian myths&#xD;&#xA;------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, truly understanding Mesopotamia's time is hard (Leo Oppenheim mentioned that having a vision of Mesopotamian religion is illusory at best, while doing it in the same book anyway). Mesopotamia is full of ambivalence. Inanna (Ishtar) is probably the best example. Her interventions during the cycle of Aratta is emblematic of that. This is to the point you start to ask yourself what she does exactly, because when she finally sides with Ur, Enmershikar is almost already victorious. To the point you see she sides with you when you have so proved yourself to her that you ask yourself why you would even need her help! I give you this short insight here on Inanna just because it shows the Mesopotamian subtlety. This beautiful subtlety is all around the Huwawa story. Huwawa is truly terrifying and still it is difficult to not feel sorry for him. Gilgamesh seems totally immune to Huwawa's power, when Enkidu has proven resisting better than Gilgamesh, still you see Gilgamesh trying his best to strip Huwawa's power. At no time does the text makes Gilgamesh emphasize how he is mocking Huwawa, but a remote knowledge of Sumerian myth makes that clear (I mean... EVERY Sumerian was undoubtedly laughing when Gilgamesh propose Enmebaragesi as a wife). Enkidu at first sage, wise and scared, actually slaughters the poor Huwawa out of rage. You have lots of Sumerian themes beginning by the reversal which makes a story begin with one character (as the legendary king Enmerkar) and keep going with another character (the hero Lugalbanda). You have such a typical example here where the story lets you believe that Gilgamesh will do the job, when Enkidu actually slaughters the monster. It is reminiscent of one of Sumerian favourite stories, the dialogue/dispute: 2 things/characters fighting to know which/who is the best.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Let me finish by giving you this insight into Mesopotamian literature. We have a letter sent by a son to his mother while she is without news. The letter contains an incredibly long description of the mother in order to help the messenger to find her. 50 lines. Then comes the text of the letter, appreciate:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When thanks to the descriptions I have given you, you stand in her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; radiant presence, tell her: &quot;Your beloved son, Lu-dignira is in good&#xD;&#xA;&gt; health&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Appreciate here the incredible beauty of Sumerian poetry &quot;Lu-dignira is in good health&quot;...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Epic of Gilgamesh&#xD;&#xA;-----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Epic built on that story, you find Enkidu, still alive, warning Gilgamesh non-stop about the danger of Humbaba. Then the fight, the Epic presents differently, as the writers noticed Huwawa does not seem so terrible and made the episode longer and Humbaba a little bit more scary (this time Gilgamesh needs the help of his mother, he cannot simply openly mock the poor Huwawa). But basically Humbaba being Huwawa ought to die. Huwawa received no mercy, Humbaba has the exact same fate. Enkidu, who was wisely preventing Gilgamesh to not face Huwawa, will do the same, and with same consequence he is utterly the one directly responsible of Huwawa/Humbaba's death. Gilgamesh and Enkidu will face the wrath of Enlil because in the original story... they did. There is one difference: Enkidu will pay more in the Epic than the Sumerian stories. But this is where the Epic start to go its way.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8435" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2047" RevisionGUID="534a8409-50ed-44d2-bc8f-cf4f743e0d6c" CreationDate="2016-10-22T06:55:39.593" Comment="Proposed by 2892 approved by 967, 2774 edit id of 378" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8436" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2047" RevisionGUID="f0b2663b-41a3-435b-9ac5-bbac635937bb" CreationDate="2016-10-22T07:50:34.350" UserId="2774" Comment="rewrote conclusion added small corrections" Text="Yeah...&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now I don't like to give any answer to such an old thing, but here it is: What you cite is the Nineveh's version of the traditional Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh. But what you have to see first is that the Epic per se comes in several versions (included partial Hittite ones, somehow different) and the Epic is borrowing from older traditions. Here is the Sumerian:&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Huwawa the ogre&#xD;&#xA;---------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Sumerians built in their time 2 great cycles/stories/matters/epics (call that as you want, I will use cycle here). The first cycle is the cycle of Aratta which detail the relationship/war between the city of Aratta and the city of Ur. One of key characters is the hero Lugalbanda (who is the father of Gilgamesh). The second cycle is precisely the cycle of Gilgamesh. And in this cycle one of the deeds of Gilgamesh is his fight with a specific ogre like creature Huwawa (the Sumerian version of the Babylonian Umbaba). &lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The story goes like this: Giglamesh decides to visit the forest of cedar with his friend/budy/slave Enkidu (in this story Enkidu is referred as *slave*). When they arrive there, they fall asleep, all except Enkidu. He manages to get Gilgamesh to wake up, and Gilgamesh is seriously pissed off. Enkidu tries to calm him, but without success, knowing what lies behind. &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;There they finally discover the source of the problem: The ogre Huwawa who is surrounded with no more that 7 auras of terror... And then the thing become amusing, judge:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  [Gilgamesh says to Huwawa:] No one really knows where in the mountains you live; they would like to know where in the mountains you live. Here, I have brought you En-me-barage-si, my big sister, to be your wife in the mountains.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This passage does seem pretty serious. Except when you know who is the so called Enmebaragesi, which in matter of a potential Gilgamesh's cute sister is the former king of Kish, father of Ata, arch enemy of Gilgamesh! Appreciate Sumerian humouresque side and Gilgamesh's fainting of terror.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;So Gilgamesh will keep mocking up the poor Huwawa by offering completely stupid gifts each time removing one of his terror until the moment Huwawa has nothing left. Then: *[Gilgamesh] made as if to kiss him, but then punched him on the cheek with his fist.* And thus: *Ḫuwawa clutched at Gilgamesh's hand, and prostrated himself before him.*&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Then you have the final reversal:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Huwawa addressed Enkidu: &quot;Enkidu, you speak such hateful words against&#xD;&#xA;&gt; me to [Gilgamesh]!&quot; (...) As Ḫuwawa spoke thus to him, Enkidu,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; full of rage and anger, cut his throat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So that is the original [abridged by me] story (at least in one of its versions). The important elements are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Huwawa stripping its power (reminiscent of Inanna's stripping of power when she tried to rule the Abzu (Hell)). Notice something truly amusing, Gilgamesh stays perfectly calm in front of him and manages to abuse Huwawa pretty easily,  despite the auras of horror.&#xD;&#xA; - Enkidu's reversal attitude: He starts by doing his best to wisely prevent Gilgamesh to go to see Huwawa and finally is the one slaughtering the poor Huwawa&#xD;&#xA; - Huwawa which is presented as an horrifying monster but just seem a lonely naive creature who believed Giglamesh a little bit too fast (Once again Inanna will fall to such a trick).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are variants both in Huwawa's story and Humbaba story of the way he is killed but that is merely details.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Huwawa's death variation&#xD;&#xA;------------------------&#xD;&#xA;Let me show this Huwawa's death variation:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - [Huwawa:] &quot;Warrior, you lied! You have manhandled me; yet you had sworn an oath&quot;&lt;BR&gt; [Gilgamesh] addressed his slave Enkidu: &quot;Come on,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; let us set the warrior free! (...) He could be our guide who would spy&#xD;&#xA;&gt; out the pitfalls of the route for us!&quot; [Enkidu]: &quot;A captured warrior&#xD;&#xA;&gt; set free! A captured high priestess returned to the ĝipar! A captured&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gudug priest restored to his wig of hair! Who has ever, ever seen such&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a thing?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this version (the one of the Epic so) we see Enkidu this time truly pleading for Huwawa's death. We don't have the end, but it is very safe to imagine that it is like the Epic and Gilgamesh will slaughter Huwawa. But in all aspect Enkidu in both version is directly responsible of Huwawa's death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mesopotamian myths&#xD;&#xA;------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, truly understanding Mesopotamia's time is hard (Leo Oppenheim mentioned that having a vision of Mesopotamian religion is illusory at best, while doing it in the same book anyway). Mesopotamia is full of ambivalence. Inanna (Ishtar) is probably the best example. Her interventions during the cycle of Aratta is emblematic of that. This is to the point you start to ask yourself what she does exactly, because when she finally sides with Ur, Enmershikar is almost already victorious. To the point you see she sides with you when you have so proved yourself to her that you ask yourself why you would even need her help! I give you this short insight here on Inanna just because it shows the Mesopotamian subtlety. This beautiful subtlety is all around the Huwawa story. Huwawa is truly terrifying and still it is difficult to not feel sorry for him. Gilgamesh seems totally immune to Huwawa's power, when Enkidu has proven resisting better than Gilgamesh, still you see Gilgamesh trying his best to strip Huwawa's power. At no time does the text makes Gilgamesh emphasize how he is mocking Huwawa, but a remote knowledge of Sumerian myth makes that clear (I mean... EVERY Sumerian was undoubtedly laughing when Gilgamesh propose Enmebaragesi as a wife). Enkidu at first sage, wise and scared, actually slaughters the poor Huwawa out of rage. You have lots of Sumerian themes beginning by the reversal which makes a story begin with one character (as the legendary king Enmerkar) and keep going with another character (the hero Lugalbanda). You have such a typical example here where the story lets you believe that Gilgamesh will do the job, when Enkidu actually slaughters the monster. It is reminiscent of one of Sumerian favourite stories, the dialogue/dispute: 2 things/characters fighting to know which/who is the best.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Let me finish by giving you this insight into Mesopotamian literature. We have a letter sent by a son to his mother while she is without news. The letter contains an incredibly long description of the mother in order to help the messenger to find her. 50 lines. Then comes the text of the letter, appreciate:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When thanks to the descriptions I have given you, you stand in her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; radiant presence, tell her: &quot;Your beloved son, Lu-dignira is in good&#xD;&#xA;&gt; health&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Appreciate here the incredible beauty of Sumerian poetry &quot;Lu-dignira is in good health&quot;...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Epic of Gilgamesh&#xD;&#xA;-----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Epic of Gilgamesh is a Babylonian story so one might ask why I spent so much time on the Sumerians, Sumerians being a different people, speaking a different language. Out of the 5 stories of the Sumerian cycle of Gilgamesh, 3 are core elements inside the Epic, and the Epic out of that simply borrows freely inside Sumerian lore. The key character Uta-napisthim being no more than the Sumerian Ziusudra as an example. Babylonian intellectuals, using the Sumerian cuneiform writing system, was nurture by Sumerians. To the same extend than modern occidental world is nurture by Romans and Greeks.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Epic so built on that Huwawa story: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - You find Enkidu, still alive, warning Gilgamesh non-stop about the danger of Humbaba. &#xD;&#xA; - The fight is presented differently, as the writers noticed Huwawa does not seem so terrible and made the episode longer and Humbaba a little bit more scary (this time Gilgamesh needs the help of his mother, he cannot simply openly mock the poor Huwawa). &#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;But basically Humbaba being Huwawa ought to die. Huwawa received no mercy, Humbaba has the exact same fate. Enkidu, who was wisely preventing Gilgamesh to not face Huwawa, will do the same, and with same consequence he is utterly the one directly responsible of Huwawa/Humbaba's death. Gilgamesh and Enkidu will face the wrath of Enlil because in the original story they did.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now the Epic of Gilgamesh per se is on a different level than the Sumerian cycles. For example, the cycle of Aratta is formed of 4 stories. In the first one, the dispute between Ur and Aratta is solved via diplomacy when in the other 3 it is war. In all case, Aratta's defeat is there. But those are disconnected story. The Epic is a full story.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;On poetic term, Huwawa story is a short piece of 200 lines when Humbaba story is evolving around 3 chapters. In Huwawa story, Enkidu is clearly shown as the direct responsible of huwawa's death, the Epic makes that slightly less clear (very cleverly). In Huwawa's story Enlil is not very happy that Huwawa was murdered, in the Epic, Enkidu will pay deeply those constant misbehaviours because just after he will kill another innocent monster Gugalanna. And then only Giglamesh will go on a (semi) purely Babylonian part trying to vainly trick death.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;I tried to show here the Sumerian root of the Epic, how the Sumerian elements has been taken, incorporated and developped for the Epic. The Epic of Gilgamesh is the very first epic ever written and on that comparing the disparate relatively shorts stories that form the core elements of the Sumerian cycles is unfair to both. But it shows how the writter(s) of the Epic took its(their) lore, built on it, and added the local faith (the totally absent Sumerian gods play a major role in Babylonian culture). It also shows how to make a proper &quot;remake&quot;. No doubt that Homer did something similar in his time (No doubt also those who judge Homer as mere guy compulsing traditions are mere idiots).&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8439" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2043" RevisionGUID="338959f3-b4b0-4902-85e1-cf528a8a10cb" CreationDate="2016-10-22T17:49:43.967" UserId="3092" Comment="added 274 characters in body" Text="The Celtic Cernunnos, the Greek Dionysus, the Slavic Veles and Vedic Shiva have snake and bull among their symbols.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why do these two symbols tend to come together?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It looks to me as though these deities also share some other similarities. They tend to be somehow associated with the Moon, the underworld, fertility, and knowledge (magic).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although, if we take other characteristic into account, we would probably replace Dionysus with Hermes. Hermes is not associated with the bull but he is associated with snakes, knowledge, and the underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**ADDED**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To make my point stronger, I would like to add the all four mentioned deities (Cernunnos, Dionysus, Veles and Shiva) are associated with **fertility**. Cernunnos and Shiva are both associated with **deer or stag**. Veles and Shiva are both gods of **cattle**." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8440" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2043" RevisionGUID="238bab49-c021-4b43-801d-c3670ee60581" CreationDate="2016-10-22T18:17:47.417" UserId="3092" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="The Celtic Cernunnos, the Greek Dionysus, the Slavic Veles and Vedic Shiva have snake and bull among their symbols.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why do these two symbols tend to come together?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It looks to me as though these deities also share some other similarities. They tend to be somehow associated with the Moon, the underworld, fertility, and knowledge (magic).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although, if we take other characteristic into account, we would probably replace Dionysus with Hermes. Hermes is not associated with the bull but he is associated with snakes, knowledge, and the underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**ADDED**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To make my point stronger, I would like to add that all four mentioned deities (Cernunnos, Dionysus, Veles and Shiva) are associated with **fertility**. Cernunnos and Shiva are both associated with **deer or stag**. Veles and Shiva are both gods of **cattle**." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8441" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2050" RevisionGUID="b5395432-2af4-4af4-8a14-e2241142c57a" CreationDate="2016-10-23T05:00:13.517" UserId="2682" Text="If *ein Arímoisin* can be translated &quot;among Arimoi&quot; then it would appear that Hesiod is naming the tribe or nation—the Arimoi—among whom Ekhidna [Echidna] is keeping guard rather than necessarily her geographical location, although location might be implied therefrom. As for what she is guarding, I would try to connect her to the oracle at Delphi based on some passages from other mythographers. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Immediately after the Theogonic line in view, Hesiod supplies the genealogical information on the most popular monsters in Greek myth, roughly half of whom are the offspring of Ekhidna by her husband or mate Typhoeus, a cosmic fire-breathing storm-giant. Hesiod goes on to finish breaking down the divine family tree at this level and narrating the conflict between Zeus and his father the Titan Kronos before eventually getting back to Typhoeus, who is brought forth by Gaia to avenge Kronos. Typhoeus ultimately fails, however, and like his half-brother Titans he too is cast into the Underworld storm-pit of Tartaros, which storm-pit is actually the giant's own father. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus' version of the contest between Zeus and Typhoeus is particularly striking for its remarkable feature of having Zeus, at some point, veer extremely close to actually being destroyed by Typhoeus. In his *Bibliotheka* Apollodorus says that Typhoeus dwelt in something called the Korykian [Corycian] Cave in Kilikia [Cilicia], Asia Minor. This mythographer's placement of this cave in so far away a corner of the Mediterranean Basin is surprising considering that the cave's name is typically associated with Mt Parnassos, and the city and oracle of Delphi in the Phokis region of Greece. In his book *Drakon: Dragon Myth and Serpent Cult in the Greek and Roman Worlds*, Daniel Ogden muses that it might have something to do with a Hittite *Chaoskampf* or combat myth being the origin of the contest between the chief Greek storm-god and this immense serpentine creature.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus continues by saying that in the vicinity of Mt Kasios on the border of what is now Syria and Turkey, after a furious battle between Zeus and Typhoeus, the giant managed to incapacitate Zeus by coiling around him and even tearing out the sinews from the god's hands and feet, presumably paralysing Zeus at least for a time. He then deposited the wounded deity in this Kilikian lair of his: the Korykian Cave. Now either Typhoeus did not have the ability to kill Zeus or he was being a typical *James Bond* movie villain, buzzing off to go do something else while leaving his arch-nemesis in the custody of some henchman or other. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whatever the giant's intention had been, he is described as having carried Zeus on his shoulders across the sea to Kilikia, where he deposited him in the cave. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Likewise he put away the sinews there also, hidden in a bearskin, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he set to guard them the *drakaina* Delphyne, a maiden who was half&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beast. But [*Zeus' sons*] Hermes and Aigipan stole the sinews and&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;while nobody was looking, reconnected their father with these body parts. Zeus was able shortly afterwards to vanquish Typhoeus for good.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sir James George Frazer's translation of this passage says that Zeus was carried *through* the sea. Maybe I'm making much of a muchness out of that but then what if therefore the Korykian Cave (and ultimately the Arimoi?) should be located underwater? It would make sense of the form which Aigipan is said to have taken for this rescue mission, changing himself into the &quot;Sea-Goat,&quot; a goat whose lower half was a fish-tail, which was afterwards placed in the sky, in his honour, as the constellation Capricorn.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This location for the Korykian Cave may create other problems, though, as other writers, such as Callimachus, derive the origin of the name Delphi from the *drakaina* Delphyne, who in this version of the myth replaces the more famous dragon Python. In the Homeric Hymn to Apollon [Apollo], Typhoeus is called Typhaon, he is the fatherless son of an enraged Hera, who, after his birth, she unites with the evil *drakaina* dwelling at the site of Delphi, apparently none other than Delphyne. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Apollon makes his début appearance at the site, he slays the drakaina and thus founds the Pythian oracle through which the land's inhabitants can offer him sacrifices. Based on the connection between Delphyne and Typhoeus in the *Bibliotheka*, [Aaron Atsma](http://www.theoi.com/Ther/DrakainaPython.html) determines Delphyne to be the same personage as Ekhidna. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Robert Graves' interpretation of all this in his book *The Greek Myths* is a bit more complicated, as he insists that Typhaon is here to be equated with (a definitively male) Python, who then becomes the consort of Delphyne.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Typically the Korykian Cave appears on Mt Parnassos in order to connect Apollon's dragon-slaying effort with the establishment of his shrine in the major city which is founded there (usually built by his son Delphos or by Apollon's cousin likewise named Delphos).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An alternate solution might be to say that the Arimoi, whoever/whatever they are, originally lived on Mt Parnassos. The gods then placed Ekhidna-Python-Delphyne in the Korykian Cave to watch over the young Typhoeus/Typhaon and to guard that primordial oracular shrine on behalf of the site's owner. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his *Eumenides* the playwright Aeschylus says that the shrine was owned first by Gaia and then by Gaia's daughter Themis and then by Themis' sister Phoibe [Phoebe] who then bequeathed it to her grandson Apollon. In 10.6.6 of his *Description of Greece*, Pausanias specifically says that Gaia installed Python as the guardian of the place. Hera would then have co-opted Python's services to create a nesting-cave for her Gigantos dragon offspring Typhaon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This identification and interpretation of Arima is however in disagreement with other ancient writers like Strabo, whose [elaborate article on the subject](http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/13D*.html#4.6) furnishes various alternate explanations. And then of course it circles back to contradict Hesiod because, unlike Python and Delphyne, Ekhidna is explicitly stated in your *Theogony* quote to be ageless and undying. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8442" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2050" RevisionGUID="ba49cbf4-ddaf-4d16-b614-42c7027ef20b" CreationDate="2016-10-23T05:10:27.453" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; added some info; deleted 40 characters in body" Text="If *ein Arímoisin* can be translated &quot;among Arimoi&quot; then it would appear that Hesiod is naming the tribe or nation—the Arimoi—among whom Ekhidna [Echidna] is keeping guard rather than necessarily her geographical location, although location might be implied therefrom. As for what she is guarding, I would try to connect her to the oracle at Delphi based on some passages from other mythographers. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Immediately after the Theogonic line in view, Hesiod supplies the genealogical information on the most popular monsters in Greek myth, roughly half of whom are the offspring of Ekhidna by her husband or mate Typhoeus, a cosmic fire-breathing storm-giant. Hesiod goes on to finish breaking down the divine family tree at this level and narrating the conflict between Zeus and his father the Titan Kronos before eventually getting back to Typhoeus, who is brought forth by Gaia to avenge Kronos. Typhoeus ultimately fails, however, and like his half-brother Titans he too is cast into the Underworld storm-pit of Tartaros, which storm-pit is actually the giant's own father. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus' version of the contest between Zeus and Typhoeus is particularly striking for its remarkable feature of having Zeus, at some point, veer extremely close to actually being destroyed by Typhoeus. In his *Bibliotheka* Apollodorus says that Typhoeus dwelt in something called the Korykian [Corycian] Cave in Kilikia [Cilicia], Asia Minor. This mythographer's placement of this cave in so far away a corner of the Mediterranean Basin is surprising considering that the cave's name is typically associated with Mt Parnassos, and the city and oracle of Delphi in the Phokis region of Greece. In his book *Drakon: Dragon Myth and Serpent Cult in the Greek and Roman Worlds*, Daniel Ogden muses that it might have something to do with a Hittite *Chaoskampf* or combat myth being the origin of the contest between the chief Greek storm-god and this immense serpentine creature.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus continues by saying that in the vicinity of Mt Kasios on the border of what is now Syria and Turkey, after a furious battle between Zeus and Typhoeus, the giant managed to incapacitate Zeus by coiling around him and even tearing out the sinews from the god's hands and feet, presumably paralysing Zeus at least for a time. He then deposited the wounded deity in this Kilikian lair of his: the Korykian Cave. Now either Typhoeus did not have the ability to kill Zeus or he was being a typical *James Bond* movie villain, buzzing off to go do something else while leaving his arch-nemesis in the custody of some henchman or other. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whatever the giant's intention had been, he is described as having carried Zeus on his shoulders across the sea to Kilikia, where he deposited him in the cave. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Likewise he put away the sinews there also, hidden in a bearskin, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he set to guard them the *drakaina* Delphyne, a maiden who was half&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beast. But [*Zeus' sons*] Hermes and Aigipan stole the sinews and&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;while nobody was looking, reconnected their father with these body parts. Zeus was able shortly afterwards to vanquish Typhoeus for good.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sir James George Frazer's translation of this passage says that Zeus was carried *through* the sea. Maybe I'm making much of a muchness out of that but then what if therefore the Korykian Cave (and ultimately the Arimoi?) should be located underwater? It would make sense of the form which Aigipan is said to have taken for this rescue mission, changing himself into the &quot;Sea-Goat,&quot; a goat whose lower half was a fish-tail, which was afterwards placed in the sky, in his honour, as the constellation Capricorn.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This location for the Korykian Cave may create other problems, though, as other writers, such as Callimachus, derive the origin of the name Delphi from the *drakaina* Delphyne, who in this version of the myth replaces the more famous dragon Python. In the Homeric Hymn to Apollon [Apollo], Typhoeus is called Typhaon, he is the fatherless son of an enraged Hera, who deposits him, after his birth, with the evil *drakaina* dwelling at the site of Delphi, apparently none other than Delphyne. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Apollon makes his début appearance at the site, he slays the drakaina and thus founds the Pythian oracle through which the land's inhabitants can offer him sacrifices. Based on the connection between Delphyne and Typhoeus in the *Bibliotheka*, [Aaron Atsma](http://www.theoi.com/Ther/DrakainaPython.html) determines Delphyne to be the same personage as Ekhidna. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Robert Graves' interpretation of all this in his book *The Greek Myths* is a bit more complicated, as he insists that Typhaon is here to be equated with (a definitively male) Python, who then becomes the consort of Delphyne.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Typically the Korykian Cave appears on Mt Parnassos in order to connect Apollon's dragon-slaying effort with the establishment of his shrine in the major city which is founded there (usually built by his son Delphos or by Apollon's cousin likewise named Delphos).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An alternate solution might be to say that the Arimoi, whoever/whatever they are, originally lived on Mt Parnassos. The gods then placed Ekhidna-Python-Delphyne in the Korykian Cave to watch over the young Typhoeus/Typhaon and to guard that primordial oracular shrine on behalf of the site's owner. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his *Eumenides* the playwright Aeschylus says that the shrine was owned first by Gaia and then by Gaia's daughter Themis and then by Themis' sister Phoibe [Phoebe] who then bequeathed it to her grandson Apollon. In 10.6.6 of his *Description of Greece*, Pausanias specifically says that Gaia installed Python as the guardian of the place. Hera would then have co-opted Python's services to create a nesting-cave for her Gigantos dragon offspring Typhaon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This identification and interpretation of Arima is however in disagreement with other ancient writers like Strabo, whose [elaborate article on the subject](http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/13D*.html#4.6) furnishes various alternate explanations. And then of course it circles back to contradict Hesiod because, unlike Python and Delphyne, Ekhidna is explicitly stated in your *Theogony* quote to be ageless and undying. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8446" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2052" RevisionGUID="700f548c-52cc-410b-8999-ab4ffc98fb44" CreationDate="2016-10-24T08:36:25.937" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="&gt;The Japanese rice Goddess liked to wrap herself in a fox’s body.  Sometimes, too, She took the shape of a human woman **in order to sleep with men, who had excellent crops as a result.  _One of these men, it was said, realized he was sleeping with the Goddess when he saw a long, furry red tail sticking out from beneath the blankets.  He said nothing of it, and She rewarded his discretion by causing all his rice to grow upside down, thus bearing a full harvest that was exempt from the rice tax_.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;source:https://journeyingtothegoddess.wordpress.com/?s=inari&amp;submit=Search&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any reference to this stories,particularly the one in italics?The reference could range from being scriptural to oral tradition." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8447" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2052" RevisionGUID="700f548c-52cc-410b-8999-ab4ffc98fb44" CreationDate="2016-10-24T08:36:25.937" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Is there any reference to this story about Inari?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8448" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2052" RevisionGUID="700f548c-52cc-410b-8999-ab4ffc98fb44" CreationDate="2016-10-24T08:36:25.937" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="|japanese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8449" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1817" RevisionGUID="3dcb9b7e-e1d0-45d5-a143-84a588f16b68" CreationDate="2016-10-24T22:30:40.730" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="8450" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1701" RevisionGUID="9fe2a14d-e601-48a9-998d-78704e791a2c" CreationDate="2016-10-24T23:30:40.290" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="8451" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2046" RevisionGUID="6edff241-2380-454a-bced-d5e22f93c219" CreationDate="2016-10-26T07:39:56.760" UserId="2892" Comment="Not entirely sure what the respondent is saying but I figured it couldn't hurt to clean up some typos and line breaks. " Text="If you read stanza 33 and 35 you'll have more clues. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hymir's daughters are the names of different waves. In Hymir's poem they travel to Eliwaves. The water in Eliwaves gets heated (the source of [Hvergelmer](https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergelmer)) by Muspelheim. If you cross Eliwaves you will come to the kingdom of giants. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Urine contains inorganic salts etc. So, if the daughters (i.e. waves) do not &quot;piss&quot; in Njorth's mouth you will not have saltwater, right? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One reason to use salt in boiling water is to increase the boiling point of the water. So the water will have a higher temperature. Salted water actually boils more quickly. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Salt may help protect metal pots from corrosion. Salt also affects flavor. Affects flavor of mead maybe? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Njorth is also father of Frey, Frey who is the king of Elves. Elves is a type of soil. If you pour water in to soil you will eventually see plants grow. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But you can also read it from other perspectives as well! ;) " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8452" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2046" RevisionGUID="6edff241-2380-454a-bced-d5e22f93c219" CreationDate="2016-10-26T07:39:56.760" Comment="Proposed by 2892 approved by 967, 111 edit id of 377" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8453" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2042" RevisionGUID="6ed3e6d2-dca3-4ad3-9464-91b11a74ae60" CreationDate="2016-10-26T12:42:31.857" UserId="967" Comment="added 31 characters in body" Text="In the Lokasenna,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Loki responds in the stanza 34, stating that &quot;from here you were sent east as hostage to the gods&quot; (a reference to the Æsir-Vanir War) and that &quot;the daughters of Hymir used you as a pisspot, and pissed in your mouth.&quot;[9]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Source:][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Loki spake:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;34. &quot;Be silent, Njorth; | thou wast eastward sent,&#xD;&#xA;To the gods as a hostage given;&#xD;&#xA;And the daughters of Hymir | their privy had&#xD;&#xA;When use did they make of thy mouth.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Source:][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why did the daughters of Hymir urinate in Njord's mouth? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nj%C3%B6r%C3%B0r#Poetic_Edda&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda/Lokasenna" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8454" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2053" RevisionGUID="e0d38dd6-5c0b-461a-a988-3b48e186cced" CreationDate="2016-10-28T08:20:01.557" UserId="3087" Text="I would like to know about the existence of mythological figures, with (preferably congenital, or otherwise) amputation-like features (e.g. one or more missing legs, hands, arms, fingers, paralyses, or likewise). The missing teeth ones are common, any ones with missing teeth that can actually produce good sounds and are good?  I am looking for both bad and good figures, but does up of the classical good/bad distinction.&#xA;&#xA;Give Ethan some personality, while they exist. Mythology, with the diversity of its contents, creatures, and figures, can sure do that.&#xA;&#xA;Thank you for your references.&#xA;&#xA;:-) :-) .. ;:,) ;:-) :,-}" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8455" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2053" RevisionGUID="e0d38dd6-5c0b-461a-a988-3b48e186cced" CreationDate="2016-10-28T08:20:01.557" UserId="3087" Text="Mythological figures &quot;with&quot; REAL amputation-like features" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8456" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2053" RevisionGUID="e0d38dd6-5c0b-461a-a988-3b48e186cced" CreationDate="2016-10-28T08:20:01.557" UserId="3087" Text="|reference-request|source-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8457" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2053" RevisionGUID="5db06e9f-21a7-421f-b886-c6bf4ee71007" CreationDate="2016-10-28T08:27:59.703" UserId="3087" Comment="added clarity; added 6 characters in body; added 268 characters in body" Text="Are amputees misrepresented in mythology? What about people with dysfunctional body parts, such as paralysed parts or the like?&#xA;&#xA;Much, of the mythology, I have seen, has figures, with some regular body post replaced by something else. But, so as to thus far, I have not seen any mythological figures with missing body parts (other than perhaps cyclopes, but these do not have missing eyes, just a different eye configuration; likewise we have people with multiple arms, but the multiplicity seems to be never zero).&#xA;&#xA;I would like to know about the existence of mythological figures, with (preferably congenital, or otherwise) amputation-like features (e.g. one or more missing legs, hands, arms, fingers, paralyses, likewise or etcetera). Some with missing teeth are common, any ones with missing teeth that can actually produce good sounds and play a good part in the underlying film (perhaps representing something related to liberalism)?  I am looking for both bad and good figures, but a bit fed up of the classical good/bad distinction.&#xA;&#xA;As it stands, symbolism in mythology seems to be able to be taken to represent almost anything one wants, but that's a separate story.&#xA;&#xA;Give them some personality, while they exist. Mythology, with the diversity of its contents, creatures, and figures, can sure / should be able to represent everyone.&#xA;&#xA;Thank you for your references.&#xA;&#xA;:-) :-) .. ;:,) ;:-) :,-}" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8458" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2053" RevisionGUID="facd23ee-1705-4aef-9cfa-7d4e93be5324" CreationDate="2016-10-28T08:34:13.607" UserId="3087" Comment="edited title; added 51 characters in body; added 35 characters in body; added 11 characters in body" Text="Mythological figures &quot;with&quot; REAL amputation-like or paralysis features" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8459" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2053" RevisionGUID="facd23ee-1705-4aef-9cfa-7d4e93be5324" CreationDate="2016-10-28T08:34:13.607" UserId="3087" Comment="edited title; added 51 characters in body; added 35 characters in body; added 11 characters in body" Text="Are amputees misrepresented in mythology? What about people with dysfunctional body parts, such as paralysed parts or the like?&#xA;&#xA;Much, of the mythology, I have seen, has figures, with some regular body post replaced by something else. But, so as to thus far, I have not seen any mythological figures with missing body parts (other than perhaps cyclopes, but these do not have missing eyes, just a different eye configuration; likewise we have people with multiple arms, but the multiplicity seems to be never zero).&#xA;&#xA;I would like to know about the existence of mythological figures, with (preferably congenital, or otherwise) amputation-like features (e.g. one or more missing legs, hands, arms, fingers, paralyses, likewise or etcetera). Some with missing teeth are common, any ones with missing teeth that can actually produce good sounds and play a good part in the underlying film (perhaps representing something related to liberalism)?  I am looking for both bad and good figures, but a bit fed up of the classical good/bad distinction.&#xA;&#xA;As it stands, symbolism in mythology seems to be able to be taken to represent almost anything one wants, but that's a separate story.&#xA;&#xA;Give them some personality, while they exist. Mythology, with the diversity of its contents, creatures, and figures, can sure / should be able to represent everyone.&#xA;&#xA;&lt;!--&#xA;&#xA;I feel a bit contrived / confused. If these examples don't exist, then why is it so?&#xA;&#xA;--&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Thank you for your references.&#xA;&#xA;:-) :-) .. ;:,) ;:-) :,-}" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8460" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2053" RevisionGUID="13e07bc7-9bb0-4be3-aa51-df8fcb507e76" CreationDate="2016-10-28T08:39:59.517" UserId="3087" Comment="deleted 40 characters in body; added 30 characters in body; added 4 characters in body; added 12 characters in body" Text="Are amputees misrepresented in mythology? What about people with dysfunctional body parts, such as paralysed parts or the like?&#xA;&#xA;Much, of the mythology, I have seen, has figures, with some regular body post replaced by something else. But, so as to thus far, I have not seen any mythological figures with missing body parts (other than perhaps cyclopes, but these do not have missing eyes, just a different eye configuration; likewise we have people with multiple arms, but the multiplicity seems to be never zero).&#xA;&#xA;I would like to know about the existence of mythological figures, with (preferably congenital, or otherwise) amputation-like features (e.g. one or more missing legs, hands, arms, fingers, paralyses, likewise or etcetera). Some with missing teeth are common, any ones with missing teeth that can actually produce good sounds and play a good part in the underlying film (perhaps representing something related to liberalism)?  I am looking for both bad and good figures, but a bit fed up of the classical good/bad distinction.&#xA;&#xA;As it stands, symbolism in mythology seems to be able to be taken to represent almost anything one wants, but that's a separate story.&#xA;&#xA;Give them some personality, while they exist. Mythology, with the diversity of its contents, creatures, and figures, can sure / should be able to represent everyone.&#xA;&#xA;And (if these examples don't exist, then why is it so)?&#xA;&#xA;Thank you for your references, and sorry for, &quot;jumping the gun&quot;.&#xA;&#xA;&lt;!--&#xA;&#xA;:-) :-) .. ;:,) ;:-) :,,,D&#xA;&#xA;--&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8461" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2053" RevisionGUID="ab6dc972-ec73-4975-ae42-7640af08b4fe" CreationDate="2016-10-28T08:48:57.600" UserId="3087" Comment="added 49 characters in body; edited title; edited title" Text="Are amputees misrepresented in mythology? What about people with dysfunctional body parts, such as paralysed parts or the like?&#xA;&#xA;Much, of the mythology, I have seen, has figures, with some regular body post replaced by something else. But, so as to thus far, I have not seen any mythological figures with missing body parts (other than perhaps cyclopes, but these do not have missing eyes, just a different eye configuration; likewise we have people with multiple arms, but the multiplicity seems to be never zero).&#xA;&#xA;I would like to know about the existence of mythological figures, with (preferably congenital, or otherwise) amputation-like features (e.g. one or more missing legs, hands, arms, fingers, paralyses, likewise or etcetera). Some with missing teeth are common, any ones with missing teeth that can actually produce good sounds and play a good part in the underlying film (perhaps representing something related to liberalism)?  I am looking for both bad and good figures, but a bit fed up of the classical good/bad distinction.&#xA;&#xA;As it stands, symbolism in mythology seems to be able to be taken to represent almost anything one wants, but that's a separate story.&#xA;&#xA;Give them some personality, while they exist. Mythology, with the diversity of its contents, creatures, and figures, can sure / should be able to represent everyone.&#xA;&#xA;And (if these examples don't exist, then why is it so)?&#xA;&#xA;I realise this question may have controversies.&#xA;&#xA;Thank you for your references, and sorry for, &quot;jumping the gun&quot;.&#xA;&#xA;&lt;!--&#xA;&#xA;:-) :-) .. ;:,) ;:-) :,,,D&#xA;&#xA;--&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8462" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2053" RevisionGUID="ab6dc972-ec73-4975-ae42-7640af08b4fe" CreationDate="2016-10-28T08:48:57.600" UserId="3087" Comment="added 49 characters in body; edited title; edited title" Text="Mythological figures &quot;with&quot; REAL(?) amputation-like or paralysis features" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8463" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2054" RevisionGUID="5425c004-acb6-4408-8035-002ab0f11d42" CreationDate="2016-10-28T21:22:02.957" UserId="2892" Text="The beloved Immortal [Li Tieguai](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Tieguai) is a prime example.  Has a physical disability, but is considered a formidable warrior--there are even martial arts forms said to originate from him which utilize a crutch.  Very popular.  A defender of the downtrodden.  &#xD;&#xA;_____________________________________________&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Hephaestus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hephaestus) is another prime example of an exceedingly skilled god with a disability from Western mythology. &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8464" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2055" RevisionGUID="50257d50-3b3d-4f0c-9a64-d7e931b08b05" CreationDate="2016-10-28T23:38:03.920" UserId="3115" Text="I was astonished when I saw these two tapestries in a museum:&#xD;&#xA;[![Hercules tail in Centaurus wars][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Hercules fighting Centaurs&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Hercules tail in multi-headed dog fight][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Hercules fighting a multi-headed dog&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In both of them Hercules/Heracles seems to have a well defined tail with a wisp of longer hair at its end. I went to [Wikipedia][3] and confirmed this in two other images:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Hercules tail in Hydra fight][4]][4] [Wiki-Link][5]&#xD;&#xA;[![Hercules tail in Achelous][6]][6] [Wiki-Link][7]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This made me question:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Does Hercules really have a tail? (or is it a trophy attached to his clothes)&#xD;&#xA; - What kind of tail is that? (which animal's tail resembles the most)&#xD;&#xA; - Does the tail have a specific symbolism when portrayed in Hercules? (e.g. fight with gods or mythological beasts)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/UQ3iM.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/EmHI2.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercules&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/aoqcz.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c0/Antonio_del_Pollaiolo_-_Ercole_e_l%27Idra_e_Ercole_e_Anteo_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/pJICI.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Annibale_Fontana_-_Plaque_with_Hercules_and_Achelous_-_Walters_4171.jpg#/media/File:Annibale_Fontana_-_Plaque_with_Hercules_and_Achelous_-_Walters_4171.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8465" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2055" RevisionGUID="50257d50-3b3d-4f0c-9a64-d7e931b08b05" CreationDate="2016-10-28T23:38:03.920" UserId="3115" Text="Does Hercules have a tail?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8466" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2055" RevisionGUID="50257d50-3b3d-4f0c-9a64-d7e931b08b05" CreationDate="2016-10-28T23:38:03.920" UserId="3115" Text="|greek|symbolism|hercules|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8467" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2055" RevisionGUID="1a06e3ee-6e42-4f76-93f0-d4abd6bb42df" CreationDate="2016-10-28T23:43:56.400" UserId="3115" Comment="added interpretation tag" Text="|greek|symbolism|interpretation|hercules|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8468" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2056" RevisionGUID="4a6c5c18-63cb-4ed3-ab4b-a45b2dd06c5a" CreationDate="2016-10-29T01:04:53.167" UserId="183" Text="[The first of Hercules' labors](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Herakles/lion.html) was to kill the Nemean lion. Hesiod, in his [*Theogony*](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hes.+Th.+327), wrote&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Nemean lion, which Hera, the good wife of Zeus, brought up and made to haunt the hills of Nemea, a plague to men. There he preyed upon the tribes of her own people and had power over Tretus of Nemea and Apesas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus, in [*Library*](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Apollod.%202.5.1&amp;lang=original), describes how Hercules killed the lion after attempts to shoot it:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And having come to Nemea and tracked the lion, he first shot an arrow at him, but when he perceived that the beast was invulnerable, he heaved up his club and made after him. And when the lion took refuge in a cave with two mouths, Hercules built up the one entrance and came in upon the beast through the other, and putting his arm round its neck held it tight till he had choked it; so laying it on his shoulders he carried it to Cleonae.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is well known (see e.g.Theocritus' [Idylls](http://www.theoi.com/Text/TheocritusIdylls4.html#25)) that Hercules then wore the lion's skin as protection - after all, it was impenetrable, and thus made for sound body armor. He did not attempt to fully dismember the body, though; in the final image, you can see the skin from its arms and legs sticking out his back." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8469" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2055" RevisionGUID="bae8016a-c916-41d2-b104-6481c8b49e7f" CreationDate="2016-10-29T02:37:48.007" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|symbolism|hercules|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8470" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2056" RevisionGUID="07bf499d-c18b-4109-aa17-799e3f3fb1bc" CreationDate="2016-10-29T02:39:17.770" UserId="967" Comment="added 126 characters in body" Text="1. It was a trophy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. A Nemean Lion's Tail.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. It was the 1st labor of Hercules- it was Hercules' first great deed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The first of Hercules' labors](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Herakles/lion.html) was to kill the Nemean lion. Hesiod, in his [*Theogony*](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hes.+Th.+327), wrote&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Nemean lion, which Hera, the good wife of Zeus, brought up and made to haunt the hills of Nemea, a plague to men. There he preyed upon the tribes of her own people and had power over Tretus of Nemea and Apesas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus, in [*Library*](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Apollod.%202.5.1&amp;lang=original), describes how Hercules killed the lion after attempts to shoot it:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And having come to Nemea and tracked the lion, he first shot an arrow at him, but when he perceived that the beast was invulnerable, he heaved up his club and made after him. And when the lion took refuge in a cave with two mouths, Hercules built up the one entrance and came in upon the beast through the other, and putting his arm round its neck held it tight till he had choked it; so laying it on his shoulders he carried it to Cleonae.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is well known (see e.g.Theocritus' [Idylls](http://www.theoi.com/Text/TheocritusIdylls4.html#25)) that Hercules then wore the lion's skin as protection - after all, it was impenetrable, and thus made for sound body armor. He did not attempt to fully dismember the body, though; in the final image, you can see the skin from its arms and legs sticking out his back." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8471" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2057" RevisionGUID="b155430c-ecaf-41bf-864f-b5b637231c6a" CreationDate="2016-10-29T13:22:40.633" UserId="967" Text="&gt;&quot;She [Medousa], it's said, was violated in Minerva's [Athena's] shrine by the Lord of the Sea (Rector Pelagi) [Poseidon]. Jove's [Zeus'] daughter turned away and covered with her shield her virgin's eyes. And then for fitting punishment transformed the Gorgo's lovely hair to loathsome snakes.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So Poseidon most probably looked at Medusa during or after the transition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Perseus delaying resolutely, and combining that with calm words. Inferior in strength (who could equal Atlas in strength?), he said, ‘Well now, since you show me so little kindness, accept a gift’ and turning away himself, he held out Medusa’s foul head, on his left hand side. Atlas became a mountain, as huge as he himself had been. Now his hair and beard were changed into trees, his shoulders and hands into ridges. What had been his head before was the crest on the mountain summit. His bones became stones. Then he grew to an immense height in every part (so you gods determined) and the whole sky, with its many stars, rested on him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gods could also be turned into stone, so why wasn't Poseidon a stone forever?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8472" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2057" RevisionGUID="b155430c-ecaf-41bf-864f-b5b637231c6a" CreationDate="2016-10-29T13:22:40.633" UserId="967" Text="Why wasn't Poseidon turned into stone?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8473" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2057" RevisionGUID="b155430c-ecaf-41bf-864f-b5b637231c6a" CreationDate="2016-10-29T13:22:40.633" UserId="967" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8474" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2058" RevisionGUID="bd6e0d22-d8ff-4e43-ad85-c2e380d6e5b2" CreationDate="2016-10-29T14:01:04.753" UserId="3117" Text="I haven't read Veda or Upanishad (and other Hindu mythologies). But I'm eager to know whether it does offer any account of how the universe came into existence? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8475" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2058" RevisionGUID="bd6e0d22-d8ff-4e43-ad85-c2e380d6e5b2" CreationDate="2016-10-29T14:01:04.753" UserId="3117" Text="Veda, Upanishad and the Physical Universe" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8476" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2058" RevisionGUID="bd6e0d22-d8ff-4e43-ad85-c2e380d6e5b2" CreationDate="2016-10-29T14:01:04.753" UserId="3117" Text="|india|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8477" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2058" RevisionGUID="788c510b-dee7-4240-8a6a-2bb94d06dc3b" CreationDate="2016-10-29T14:20:21.590" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|hindu|india|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8478" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2059" RevisionGUID="502adec1-af8c-47b6-975e-d2ebbb589466" CreationDate="2016-10-29T16:13:39.497" UserId="292" Text="Poseidon had sex with Medusa, which according to Ovid, who tells the tale, basically to get back at Athena, his great rival. Then, Athena punished Medusa by making her snaky-haired, etc. I'm not sure what your source is, but the [only ancient source][1] that I know of is Ovid, and he tells it like this:  &#xD;&#xA;And yet, before they were aware, the tale  &#xD;&#xA;was ended; he was silent. Then rejoined  &#xD;&#xA;a noble with enquiry why alone  &#xD;&#xA;of those three sisters, snakes were interspersed  &#xD;&#xA;in dread Medusa's locks. And he replied:—  &#xD;&#xA;“Because, O Stranger, it is your desire  &#xD;&#xA;to learn what worthy is for me to tell,  &#xD;&#xA;hear ye the cause: Beyond all others she  &#xD;&#xA;was famed for beauty, and the envious hope  &#xD;&#xA;of many suitors. Words would fail to tell  &#xD;&#xA;the glory of her hair, most wonderful  &#xD;&#xA;of all her charms—A friend declared to me  &#xD;&#xA;he saw its lovely splendour. Fame declares  &#xD;&#xA;the Sovereign of the Sea attained her love  &#xD;&#xA;in chaste Minerva's temple. While enraged  &#xD;&#xA;she turned her head away and held her shield  &#xD;&#xA;before her eyes. To punish that great crime  &#xD;&#xA;Minerva changed the Gorgon's splendid hair  &#xD;&#xA;to serpents horrible. And now to strike  &#xD;&#xA;her foes with fear, she wears upon her breast  &#xD;&#xA;those awful vipers—creatures of her rage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D4%3Acard%3D706" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8479" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2059" RevisionGUID="2aa29909-ed70-49c7-a4d9-a799b74ea034" CreationDate="2016-10-29T16:21:58.683" UserId="292" Comment="added 636 characters in body" Text="The actual tale as told by Ovid is a little different from the version you quote. [This is the only ancient source][1] that I know of for this version of the Medusa story, and he tells it like this:  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;And yet, before they were aware, the tale  &#xD;&#xA;was ended; he was silent. Then rejoined  &#xD;&#xA;a noble with enquiry why alone  &#xD;&#xA;of those three sisters, snakes were interspersed  &#xD;&#xA;in dread Medusa's locks. And he replied:—  &#xD;&#xA;“Because, O Stranger, it is your desire  &#xD;&#xA;to learn what worthy is for me to tell,  &#xD;&#xA;hear ye the cause: Beyond all others she  &#xD;&#xA;was famed for beauty, and the envious hope  &#xD;&#xA;of many suitors. Words would fail to tell  &#xD;&#xA;the glory of her hair, most wonderful  &#xD;&#xA;of all her charms—A friend declared to me  &#xD;&#xA;he saw its lovely splendour. Fame declares  &#xD;&#xA;the Sovereign of the Sea attained her love  &#xD;&#xA;in chaste Minerva's temple. While enraged  &#xD;&#xA;she turned her head away and held her shield  &#xD;&#xA;before her eyes. To punish that great crime  &#xD;&#xA;Minerva changed the Gorgon's splendid hair  &#xD;&#xA;to serpents horrible. And now to strike  &#xD;&#xA;her foes with fear, she wears upon her breast  &#xD;&#xA;those awful vipers—creatures of her rage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [Hesiod's verson][2] Poseidon and Medusa also had a thing: &quot;With her lay the Dark-haired One in a soft meadow amid spring flowers&quot; but he doesn't mention snaky hair or any punishement, Medusa is just the mortal sister of the two immortal Gorgons. Now you might well asky why Poseidon wasn't turned to stone, to which I can only reply that he wasn't. (Of course, the focus of this version is explaining why Pegasus and Chrysador were born from her neck when she was killed.)  &#xD;&#xA;He also raped Demeter the Furious while she was looking her for her daughter, and he and an actual Fury also had a liasion, so I'm guessing that maybe he likes scary women.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D4%3Acard%3D706&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:abo:tlg,0020,001:276" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8482" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2059" RevisionGUID="2fd6a09c-7cb0-44ac-8612-d3757d583aec" CreationDate="2016-10-29T22:08:44.190" UserId="292" Comment="added 78 characters in body" Text="The actual tale as told by Ovid is a little different from the version you quote. [This is the only ancient source][1] that I know of for this version of the Medusa story, and he tells it like this:  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;And yet, before they were aware, the tale  &#xD;&#xA;was ended; he was silent. Then rejoined  &#xD;&#xA;a noble with enquiry why alone  &#xD;&#xA;of those three sisters, snakes were interspersed  &#xD;&#xA;in dread Medusa's locks. And he replied:—  &#xD;&#xA;“Because, O Stranger, it is your desire  &#xD;&#xA;to learn what worthy is for me to tell,  &#xD;&#xA;hear ye the cause: Beyond all others she  &#xD;&#xA;was famed for beauty, and the envious hope  &#xD;&#xA;of many suitors. Words would fail to tell  &#xD;&#xA;the glory of her hair, most wonderful  &#xD;&#xA;of all her charms—A friend declared to me  &#xD;&#xA;he saw its lovely splendour. Fame declares  &#xD;&#xA;the Sovereign of the Sea attained her love  &#xD;&#xA;in chaste Minerva's temple. While enraged  &#xD;&#xA;she turned her head away and held her shield  &#xD;&#xA;before her eyes. To punish that great crime  &#xD;&#xA;Minerva changed the Gorgon's splendid hair  &#xD;&#xA;to serpents horrible. And now to strike  &#xD;&#xA;her foes with fear, she wears upon her breast  &#xD;&#xA;those awful vipers—creatures of her rage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [Hesiod's verson][2] Poseidon and Medusa also had a thing: &quot;With her lay the Dark-haired One in a soft meadow amid spring flowers&quot; but he doesn't mention snaky hair or any punishement, Medusa is just the mortal sister of the two immortal Gorgons.  &#xD;&#xA;Now you might well asky why Poseidon wasn't turned to stone, to which I can only reply that he wasn't. There seems to be a tension in the myth between beautiful Medusa and ugly Gorgon, and Ovid's story was probably one rationalization of this problem. (This was bothering people back then, too.)  &#xD;&#xA;Poseidon also raped Demeter the Furious while she was looking her for her daughter, and he and an actual Fury also had a liasion, so I'm guessing that maybe he likes scary women.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D4%3Acard%3D706&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:abo:tlg,0020,001:276" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8486" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2059" RevisionGUID="6bb89941-e6de-46ba-91aa-e55342e726c2" CreationDate="2016-10-30T21:49:23.920" UserId="2892" Comment="Minor edits for a few typos and paragraph line breaks" Text="The actual tale as told by Ovid is a little different from the version you quote. [This is the only ancient source][1] that I know of for this version of the Medusa story, and he tells it like this:  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;And yet, before they were aware, the tale  &#xD;&#xA;was ended; he was silent. Then rejoined  &#xD;&#xA;a noble with enquiry why alone  &#xD;&#xA;of those three sisters, snakes were interspersed  &#xD;&#xA;in dread Medusa's locks. And he replied:—  &#xD;&#xA;“Because, O Stranger, it is your desire  &#xD;&#xA;to learn what worthy is for me to tell,  &#xD;&#xA;hear ye the cause: Beyond all others she  &#xD;&#xA;was famed for beauty, and the envious hope  &#xD;&#xA;of many suitors. Words would fail to tell  &#xD;&#xA;the glory of her hair, most wonderful  &#xD;&#xA;of all her charms—A friend declared to me  &#xD;&#xA;he saw its lovely splendour. Fame declares  &#xD;&#xA;the Sovereign of the Sea attained her love  &#xD;&#xA;in chaste Minerva's temple. While enraged  &#xD;&#xA;she turned her head away and held her shield  &#xD;&#xA;before her eyes. To punish that great crime  &#xD;&#xA;Minerva changed the Gorgon's splendid hair  &#xD;&#xA;to serpents horrible. And now to strike  &#xD;&#xA;her foes with fear, she wears upon her breast  &#xD;&#xA;those awful vipers—creatures of her rage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [Hesiod's version][2] Poseidon and Medusa also had a thing: &quot;With her lay the Dark-haired One in a soft meadow amid spring flowers&quot; but he doesn't mention snaky hair or any punishment, Medusa is just the mortal sister of the two immortal Gorgons.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now you might well ask why Poseidon wasn't turned to stone, to which I can only reply that he wasn't. There seems to be a tension in the myth between beautiful Medusa and ugly Gorgon, and Ovid's story was probably one rationalization of this problem. (This was bothering people back then, too.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Poseidon also raped Demeter the Furious while she was looking her for her daughter, and he and an actual Fury also had a liaison, so I'm guessing that maybe he simply likes scary women.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D4%3Acard%3D706&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:abo:tlg,0020,001:276" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8487" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2059" RevisionGUID="6bb89941-e6de-46ba-91aa-e55342e726c2" CreationDate="2016-10-30T21:49:23.920" Comment="Proposed by 2892 approved by 967, 183 edit id of 380" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8488" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2053" RevisionGUID="aaefc02e-e47f-4c80-8781-d6c78ee9e3e9" CreationDate="2016-10-31T20:51:24.110" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8489" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2059" RevisionGUID="1c549232-0770-4014-8ec0-f0086d1fd01c" CreationDate="2016-10-31T21:10:17.763" UserId="967" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="The actual tale as told by Ovid is a little different from the version you quote. [This is the only ancient source][1] that I know of for this version of the Medusa story, and he tells it like this:  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;And yet, before they were aware, the tale  &#xD;&#xA;was ended; he was silent. Then rejoined  &#xD;&#xA;a noble with enquiry why alone  &#xD;&#xA;of those three sisters, snakes were interspersed  &#xD;&#xA;in dread Medusa's locks. And he replied:—  &#xD;&#xA;“Because, O Stranger, it is your desire  &#xD;&#xA;to learn what worthy is for me to tell,  &#xD;&#xA;hear ye the cause: Beyond all others she  &#xD;&#xA;was famed for beauty, and the envious hope  &#xD;&#xA;of many suitors. Words would fail to tell  &#xD;&#xA;the glory of her hair, most wonderful  &#xD;&#xA;of all her charms—A friend declared to me  &#xD;&#xA;he saw its lovely splendour. Fame declares  &#xD;&#xA;the Sovereign of the Sea attained her love  &#xD;&#xA;in chaste Minerva's temple. While enraged  &#xD;&#xA;she turned her head away and held her shield  &#xD;&#xA;before her eyes. To punish that great crime  &#xD;&#xA;Minerva changed the Gorgon's splendid hair  &#xD;&#xA;to serpents horrible. And now to strike  &#xD;&#xA;her foes with fear, she wears upon her breast  &#xD;&#xA;those awful vipers—creatures of her rage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [Hesiod's version][2] Poseidon and Medusa also had a thing: &quot;With her lay the Dark-haired One in a soft meadow amid spring flowers&quot; but he doesn't mention snaky hair or any punishment, Medusa is just the mortal sister of the two immortal Gorgons.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now you might well ask why Poseidon wasn't turned to stone, to which I can only reply that he wasn't. There seems to be a tension in the myth between beautiful Medusa and ugly Gorgon, and Ovid's story was probably one rationalization of this problem. (This was bothering people back then, too.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Poseidon also raped Demeter the Furious while she was looking her for her daughter, and he and an actual Fury also had a liaison, so I'm guessing that maybe he simply likes scary women.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D4%3Acard%3D706&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:abo:tlg,0020,001:276" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8492" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2063" RevisionGUID="a485c867-3e14-4fab-9c04-8057f52bfee1" CreationDate="2016-11-01T21:39:40.047" UserId="3125" Text="Well, there's Procrustes, who effectively *created* amputees by alternately stretching them or cutting off their legs in order to make them a certain size so that they fit exactly the length of his iron bed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pelops, a grandson of Zeus, the king of the Greek gods, had a special prosthesis – a shoulder made of ivory. Pelops was brought back to life after suffering a gruesome death. (For more information: http://www.healio.com/orthotics-prosthetics/news/print/o-and-p-news/%7B9921898b-179e-4cfc-9d72-513376cbc293%7D/history-proves-that-some-revered-gods-and-goddesses-were-also-amputees)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Paralysis features? Medusa *granted* paralysis, to her victims, lol. Specifically the titan Atlas, eventually, if you were looking for examples.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm sure there are more, but you must understand, this is a very broad question you're asking...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8493" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2064" RevisionGUID="4f8bec12-afe1-4511-8238-da8f3d681ab6" CreationDate="2016-11-01T21:41:59.950" UserId="3125" Text="That's the tail of the Nemean Lion, which Hercules killed as a part of his first task for King Eurystheus in absolution for killing his wife and children (due to the manipulation of the goddess Hera). Hercules then skinned the lion and used this skin for a cloak, as it was impervious to mortal weapons (part of the reason why it was so hard to kill)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8496" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2065" RevisionGUID="1db941e3-55f1-4dae-aa82-fbe831b7b063" CreationDate="2016-11-03T18:30:06.983" UserId="2892" Text="Also his depiction in Chinese Opera.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I ask because, although he often does troubling things such as the murder of Lü Boshe's family, Mengde is a man of exceptional talents and has many admirable qualities. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I feel he is in some ways similar to Shakespeare's Richard III, who could be said to be compelled to seize power per his superior capability, although he ultimately falls do to various character defects.  Compared to Dong Zhou, Mengde comes out quite favorably, and he is clearly deeply affected by the collapse of the coalition, which seems to influence his subsequent actions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Romance*, Mengde is, in some sense, can be seen as an individual pitted against the sworn brothers, all exceptional, who additionally have the guidance of Zhuge Liang, and Cao Cao still nearly prevails.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At some point I hope to get to the source material for *Romance*, but I'd be interested if anyone had any thoughts on this subject." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8497" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2065" RevisionGUID="1db941e3-55f1-4dae-aa82-fbe831b7b063" CreationDate="2016-11-03T18:30:06.983" UserId="2892" Text="To what degree is the villainization of Cao Cao a function of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8498" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2065" RevisionGUID="1db941e3-55f1-4dae-aa82-fbe831b7b063" CreationDate="2016-11-03T18:30:06.983" UserId="2892" Text="|romance-three-kingdoms|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8499" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2065" RevisionGUID="3eb72ea9-091d-4a3d-82e5-1d447ecce3c1" CreationDate="2016-11-03T21:30:11.180" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|chinese|romance-three-kingdoms|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8500" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2066" RevisionGUID="12279e1e-f0e6-4c3f-9802-991e3807ea98" CreationDate="2016-11-04T08:56:57.190" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Is it mentioned anywhere in the scriptures how big the acient Norse belived the Nine Realms of their myths were?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8501" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2066" RevisionGUID="12279e1e-f0e6-4c3f-9802-991e3807ea98" CreationDate="2016-11-04T08:56:57.190" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="How big were the Nine Realms of Norse mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8502" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2066" RevisionGUID="12279e1e-f0e6-4c3f-9802-991e3807ea98" CreationDate="2016-11-04T08:56:57.190" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="|norse|world-tree|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8503" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2067" RevisionGUID="fae0131d-9e05-4968-a563-dd8a144b0c1a" CreationDate="2016-11-04T09:13:54.437" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="The Japanese Underworld (Yomi) is said to be ruled by Izanami. However, in the tale of Ōkuninushi,Susanno is said to reside there as its king.In addition to that, Izanamzi told Inzangi that she had to ask permission to get out of Yomi.From whom had she needed to ask permission from?A ruler/god of Yomi?Who is the real ruler of Yomi?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8504" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2067" RevisionGUID="fae0131d-9e05-4968-a563-dd8a144b0c1a" CreationDate="2016-11-04T09:13:54.437" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Who was the ruler of the Japanese Yomi?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8505" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2067" RevisionGUID="fae0131d-9e05-4968-a563-dd8a144b0c1a" CreationDate="2016-11-04T09:13:54.437" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="|japanese|underworld|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8506" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2068" RevisionGUID="934402de-3939-4754-8692-6e5e769e9e33" CreationDate="2016-11-04T10:48:54.843" UserId="1511" Text="I have always wondered are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odin,&#xD;&#xA;Mercury,&#xD;&#xA;Hermes,&#xD;&#xA;Thoth&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;the same person?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If so, why they are celebrated by different cultures and praised by different myths?&#xD;&#xA;I am in love with these deities...&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8507" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2068" RevisionGUID="934402de-3939-4754-8692-6e5e769e9e33" CreationDate="2016-11-04T10:48:54.843" UserId="1511" Text="Odin's Counterpart" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8508" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2068" RevisionGUID="934402de-3939-4754-8692-6e5e769e9e33" CreationDate="2016-11-04T10:48:54.843" UserId="1511" Text="|odin|hermes|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8509" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2068" RevisionGUID="e92eaaff-d4f8-44c7-84c3-a80d9ac95217" CreationDate="2016-11-04T13:27:41.753" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8510" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2069" RevisionGUID="8ee065b6-c14f-40cc-aed9-f365b1abe0bd" CreationDate="2016-11-04T13:30:29.803" UserId="2774" Text="That is a complex and not really easy to answer question.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Mercury and Hermes are basically the same. The roman Mercury is simply the Greek Hermes.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now Toth. Toth is a pure Egyptian God. In 300BC Egypt was conquered by Alexander the Great and one of his general, Ptolemy became the new Pharaoh forming the Ptolemy/Lagid dynasty (the last Pharaohs). At this time Greek will collect Egyptian Gods, give them more or then Greek names (that the name we still use today Isis/Osiris/Anubis/Toth those are the Greek names). They also identify the Egyptian Gods and put them together with Greek Gods. Note that Herodotus did basically that some 200 years before. Toth (Egyptian dhwty, Egyptian was a semitic language and as such did not wrote the vowels, we are so pretty uncertain how Egyptian god's name was pronounced) has so been paralleled with Hermes.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now, in Early Antiquity you have 3 great civilizations all centered around rivers: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Egyptian around the Nile&#xD;&#xA; - Mesopotamian around the Euphrates&#xD;&#xA; - Indian around the Indus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no doubt those civilizations was in contact and they mixed more or then their beliefs.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Greek are originally probably from a northern part of Europe. They so inherited that with obvious contact with Mesopotamia (Phoenician exactly).&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Considering they later identify Toth with Hermes, in what extend Hermes could have originated in Toth...probably not the case. Herodotus mentioned numerous time he was believing Greek Gods was coming from Egyptian one (proving that a very smart guy in 500BC was seeing some similitudes), and he was certainly very wrong.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Odin is really coming from a WAY later tradition. On the same extend we have Roman writers mentioning celtic/norse believes but giving them Roman names (Jupiter/Odin, Herakles/Thor, etc.). Considering the attributes of Odin, he can be attached to Jupiter, Hades or Hermes.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;You can find here and there strange similitudes showing some concordances. Thor is a thundergod with the magical hammer Mjolnir. The Indian Indra is a thundergod with a magical tunderbolt Vajra. The Greek Zeus is a thundergod with thunderbolt. Their oldest known common ancestor is the Hurrian Teshub wielding the magical axe and the magical thunderbolt. All of them are confronted to snakish/dragonish monsters (Jormungandr, Vritra, Typhoeus, Ullikumi). But who was the first? And beside that, myths are still mostly different in their executions, way of writing and such.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;That is why that is NOT an easy question. No doubt that Hermes is Mercury. For Toth and Odin... Far from that easy. You just have to remind that the antique world was different than ours. Reading was no so common, and even when you could, languages was totally different. Travel opportunities was far from that common. It is quite hard to judge Antique knowledge from the very partial things we know (Hell what we know of the 5th Dynasty of Egyptian Pharaohs...), with our common huge Linga Franca, the Internet and our vast world library.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Lets mention ONE last thing: Most little bit cultivated people will feel somehow uncomfortable trying to know who is the first. First because it is damn hard question. Second, there is a little &quot;sulferic&quot; smell there. There is some people out there loving to draw quick and huge conclusions of dramatic importances on things they have no clue what they are talking about. And they can be sweet talkers. And soon you are confronted to race/superiority/monomyth/Atlantid/Extraterrestrials.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;So great question, dense question. But very hard to give a clear definitive answer. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8511" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2070" RevisionGUID="0538fefc-3002-4db0-b5d3-f4058b1de7fc" CreationDate="2016-11-04T15:33:53.620" UserId="292" Text="Loki's insults in the poem *Lokasenna* aren't necessarily truthful. The Norse, like o[ther medieval people][1] including the Scots and the Inuit, had a traditon of insult contests called [flyting][2] that served to show off verbal cleverness and channel agression. There are many examples of this in Norse sagas, where people insult each other in ways that aren't even physically possible.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;We know two important things about Njord: 1) he was sent as a hostage to the Aesir to [end the war][3] between them and the Vanir gods, and 2) he married a giantess ([Skadi][4]) to keep peace between the gods and giants, and it ended when she left him.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;There has been a lot of discussion about whether Njord may also have been sent as a hostage to the giants, but if you take the two facts above and add to it the story of how the [giantess Gjalp][5] nearly drowned Thor by pissing into a river he was trying to cross, you can see how Loki was inspired.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;The fact that in the story of Njord and Skadi the sea-god seems particularly passive, not even getting a say in being married off to the giantess, may also have contributed. After all, an insult doesn't have to be true, it just has to be funny and likely to stick, which means it should have some basis in a person's behaviour or appearance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flyting&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/flyting-was-medieval-england-s-version-of-an-insult-trading-rap-battle&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://norse-mythology.org/tales/the-aesir-vanir-war/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ska%C3%B0i&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gj%C3%A1lp_and_Greip" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8512" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2071" RevisionGUID="c0895e0c-b796-4bef-b53f-43243ab9aa49" CreationDate="2016-11-04T18:53:34.310" UserId="42" Text="The key point here is Roman Syncretism. The romans believed the world was full of different gods, and they didn't presume to know about all of them, or to know everything about the ones they already recognized. Thus, when confronted with a new god, they would tend either adopt it into their religion, or equate it with another they already knew.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This practice was one seen in both Greek and Roman culture, referred to as &quot;Interpretatio Graeca&quot; and &quot;Interpretatio Romana&quot;, respectively.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, the *Romans* say these deities are one and the same, but that doesn't mean you should too blithely take their word for it (outside the context of Roman religion).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mercury is believed to have been largely incorporated directly from the Greek Hermes, that is, he was adopted pretty much entirely, rather than subsumed into another known deity. So there is more justification for calling them the *same* deity in this case, but I still wouldn't really consider that safe. The Romans would give him their own set of stories, characteristics and methods of worship.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wotan was first equated with the Mercury by Tacitus in the first reference to *Interpretatio Romana*, in which Germanic equivalents to Castor and Pollux are also identified. It is believed this is because they both (as well as Hermes) serve as [psychopomps](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopomp).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thoth would have been through a similar process, though I haven't seen much on the details.  I've also seen reference to Mercury being equated with Anubis (another psychopomp)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8513" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2071" RevisionGUID="f8716a76-cc89-45e5-8f4c-8bdd7c1b7300" CreationDate="2016-11-04T19:02:03.540" UserId="42" Comment="added 381 characters in body" Text="The key point here is Roman Syncretism. The romans believed the world was full of different gods, and they didn't presume to know about all of them, or to know everything about the ones they already recognized. Thus, when confronted with a new god, they would tend either adopt it into their religion, or equate it with another they already knew.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This practice was one seen in both Greek and Roman culture, referred to as &quot;Interpretatio Graeca&quot; and &quot;Interpretatio Romana&quot;, respectively.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, the *Romans* say these deities are one and the same, but that doesn't mean you should too blithely take their word for it (outside the context of Roman religion).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mercury is believed to have been largely incorporated directly from the Greek Hermes, that is, he was adopted pretty much entirely, rather than subsumed into another known deity. So there is more justification for calling them the *same* deity in this case, but I still wouldn't really consider that safe. The Romans would give him their own set of stories, characteristics and methods of worship.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wotan was first equated with the Mercury by Tacitus in the first reference to *Interpretatio Romana*, in which Germanic equivalents to Castor, Pollux, Hercules and Mars are also identified.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Of the gods, Mercury is the principal object of their adoration; whom, on certain days, they think it lawful to propitiate even with human victims. To Hercules and Mars they offer the animals usually allotted for sacrifice.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[The Germany and the Agricola of Tacitus: The Oxford Translation, Revised With Notes](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/7524/7524.txt)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is believed this is because both Wotan and Mercury (as well as Hermes) serve as [psychopomps](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopomp).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thoth would have been through a similar process, though I haven't seen much on the details.  I've also seen reference to Mercury being equated with Anubis (another psychopomp)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8514" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2071" RevisionGUID="4b86545c-af02-49c4-a14e-9035589232ed" CreationDate="2016-11-04T20:16:10.853" UserId="42" Comment="added 122 characters in body" Text="The key point here is Roman Syncretism. The romans believed the world was full of different gods, and they didn't presume to know about all of them, or to know everything about the ones they already recognized. Thus, when confronted with a new god, they would tend either to adopt it into their religion, or equate it with another they already knew.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This practice was one seen in both Greek and Roman culture, referred to as &quot;Interpretatio Graeca&quot; and &quot;Interpretatio Romana&quot;, respectively.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, the *Romans* say these deities are one and the same, but that doesn't mean you should too blithely take their word for it (outside the context of Roman religion).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mercury is believed to have been largely incorporated directly from the Greek Hermes, that is, he was adopted pretty much entirely, rather than subsumed into another known deity. So there is more justification for calling them the *same* deity in this case, but I still wouldn't really consider that safe. The Romans would give him their own set of stories, characteristics and methods of worship.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wotan was first equated with the Mercury by Tacitus an early reference to *Interpretatio Romana*, in which Germanic equivalents to Castor, Pollux, Hercules and Mars are also identified.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Of the gods, Mercury is the principal object of their adoration; whom, on certain days, they think it lawful to propitiate even with human victims. To Hercules and Mars they offer the animals usually allotted for sacrifice.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[The Germany and the Agricola of Tacitus: The Oxford Translation, Revised With Notes](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/7524/7524.txt)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is believed this is because both Wotan and Mercury (as well as Hermes) serve as [psychopomps](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopomp).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thoth would have been through a similar process, though I haven't seen much on the details.  I've also seen reference to Mercury being equated with Anubis (another psychopomp).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some other gods the Romans probably identified as Mercury were: Lugh (Gaulish), Teutates (Celtic), and Turms (Etruscan)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8515" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2072" RevisionGUID="5a21bd4c-ad40-4d93-b714-de312afe3ba5" CreationDate="2016-11-05T00:03:50.463" UserId="967" Text="Deluge Myth is defined as a big flood that killed everyone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Noah's Ark&#xD;&#xA;* Deucalion's flood&#xD;&#xA;* Gilgamesh's&#xD;&#xA;* Bergelmir &#xD;&#xA;... and so on...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does a myth system not have a Deluge myth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8516" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2072" RevisionGUID="5a21bd4c-ad40-4d93-b714-de312afe3ba5" CreationDate="2016-11-05T00:03:50.463" UserId="967" Text="Does *every* culture have a sort of Deluge myth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8517" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2072" RevisionGUID="5a21bd4c-ad40-4d93-b714-de312afe3ba5" CreationDate="2016-11-05T00:03:50.463" UserId="967" Text="|comparative|flood-myth|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8518" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2073" RevisionGUID="768aae22-e0fa-48c3-8ba9-2c1b9c124669" CreationDate="2016-11-05T07:00:03.867" UserId="1511" Text="I have heard that Freya and Frigg are actually the same Goddess, as they reside over love and nature. I am interested in the relationship between Odin and Freya. I would love to discuss them!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8519" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2073" RevisionGUID="768aae22-e0fa-48c3-8ba9-2c1b9c124669" CreationDate="2016-11-05T07:00:03.867" UserId="1511" Text="Did Odin Have A Relationship With Freya?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8520" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2073" RevisionGUID="768aae22-e0fa-48c3-8ba9-2c1b9c124669" CreationDate="2016-11-05T07:00:03.867" UserId="1511" Text="|odin|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8521" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2073" RevisionGUID="31cdf18a-cee9-4752-87ab-36cfe9c9e34b" CreationDate="2016-11-05T11:00:10.827" UserId="1511" Comment="added 630 characters in body" Text="Some scholars hypothesize that both Frigg and Freyja may have their origin in a Common Germanic goddess. There is no firm evidence for this, but scholars have found some similarities both in their mythological features and the possible etymologies of their names, as well as place-names associated with them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The day of the week Friday in Old Norse is called both Freyjudagr and Frjádagr (for Freyja and Frigg respectively), in Faröese Fríggjadagur, and in Old High German was Frîatac, Frîgetac, and now Freitag, for Frigg. In Old English Frigedæg referred to Frigg as well.&#xD;&#xA;The name of the early English goddess is attested only in the name of the weekday, although frīg (strong feminine) as a common noun meaning &quot;love&quot; (in the singular) or &quot;affections, embraces&quot; (in the plural) is attested in poetry.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8522" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2074" RevisionGUID="25c6b8c2-537f-4994-9899-028254bad815" CreationDate="2016-11-05T11:27:55.023" UserId="666" Text="This is a convoluted topic, and I will start from a somewhat different angle: we are told by Snorri (and find confirmation in Völuspá) that Freya was for a while married to a figure by the name of [Od][1], who subsequently disappeared and whom she cries tears of gold for.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The name &quot;Od&quot; is of course related to &quot;Odin&quot;. This has led to the obvious identification of the two, even if it does not make much sense for Odin to get away with marrying two different goddesses without them realising.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This leads to the idea that not only Odin but also Frigg has been doubled; there are, as you have noted, considerable overlap between Frigg and Freya, but there is no firm proof, as they are also kept clearly separate in a number of stories. The etymology of their names is also different: &quot;Freya&quot; means ruler, while &quot;Frigg&quot;, as noted, means &quot;beloved&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Furthermore, in the admittedly late [Sörla þáttr][2], Freya is referred to as Odin's &quot;mistress&quot;, and it is told that they live together.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, the answer to the original question is that there is strong support for the idea that Freya and Odin had some sort of relationship, even if it is difficult to answer properly of what kind. Perhaps the confusion it is a matter of different traditions getting mixed up, one where the pairing is between Odin and Freya, and another where it is Odin and Frigg.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%93%C3%B0r&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%B6rla_%C3%BE%C3%A1ttr" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8523" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2075" RevisionGUID="229cd90d-4117-4a52-a545-131a7de6023f" CreationDate="2016-11-05T16:40:25.583" UserId="292" Text="The Eddic poem *Hyndluljod*, a dialogue between Freyja and a giantess, also mentions Od. The giantess Hyndla taunts Freyja for being over-sexed: You ran to Od,/ ever longing.&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've seen their relationship rationalized as Freyja being Odin's &quot;[concubine][1]&quot;, and it should be noted that many European rulers, even after Christianity, had wives from several different ethinic groups within their territory. So Freyja could have been a co-wife, or concubine, and this would not have been unusual. (Given her status, co-wife seems more likely.)&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;I should also mention that [Lee Hollander][2], among others, sees Od and Odin as two sparate beings, and thinks the whole story is a version of the Cupid and Psyche myth. Out of my three dictionaries of Norse mythology, Lindow sees them as related, Simek has no opinion, and Orchard sees them as possibly connected but with no real way to tell. (Both Simek and Orchard see Od as essentially &quot;Freyja's husband&quot;, whatever his connection to Odin.)&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;[John Lindow][3] points out (perhaps jokingly) that the difference between Od and Odin lies in the fact that when Odin travels, no one seems to miss him.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concubinage&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/27713180?seq=2#page_scan_tab_contents&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B004VV9LDQ/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&amp;btkr=1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8524" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2076" RevisionGUID="0a2d9f93-cb38-4031-9f34-c626dd5a3bad" CreationDate="2016-11-06T11:16:53.837" UserId="3135" Text="I've often seen the word &quot;Clerius&quot; (*Κληριος*, &quot;Klêrios&quot;) listed as an epithet of the Greek god Apollo, translated to &quot;Distributing by Lot&quot;.  I've searched a lot for the possible meanings of this phrase, but couldn't find a thing." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8525" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2076" RevisionGUID="0a2d9f93-cb38-4031-9f34-c626dd5a3bad" CreationDate="2016-11-06T11:16:53.837" UserId="3135" Text="What does &quot;distributing by lot&quot; mean among Apollo's epithets?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8526" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2076" RevisionGUID="0a2d9f93-cb38-4031-9f34-c626dd5a3bad" CreationDate="2016-11-06T11:16:53.837" UserId="3135" Text="|greek|apollo|translation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8527" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2077" RevisionGUID="f0d79e1d-f4a2-4d00-89c7-3f0230839752" CreationDate="2016-11-06T19:12:54.730" UserId="742" Text="R. Simon Ashenburg in [Debek Tob][1] reconciles a contradiction in the Bible regarding the name of Issachar's son which is given as Yov (יוב) in Genesis 46:13 and elsewhere as Yashuv (ישוב) in Numbers 26:24 by explaining that his name was really Yov but since that matches the name of an idolatrous deity, an extra ש was added to his name so he was called Yashuv.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question is whether we know of any ancient mythology which had a god named Yov (or Yob, or Iob or Job) or something similar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/11687" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8528" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2077" RevisionGUID="f0d79e1d-f4a2-4d00-89c7-3f0230839752" CreationDate="2016-11-06T19:12:54.730" UserId="742" Text="Is there a god called Iob/Job/Yov?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8529" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2077" RevisionGUID="f0d79e1d-f4a2-4d00-89c7-3f0230839752" CreationDate="2016-11-06T19:12:54.730" UserId="742" Text="|reference-request|names|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8531" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2079" RevisionGUID="7f5ec8e8-3a89-4ba9-98a0-b065acb1afc4" CreationDate="2016-11-06T23:50:22.237" UserId="3004" Text="The problem with your question boils down to the chaotic nature of oral tradition, each region has their own stories and myths, some of which survived and others didn't. Much of what we know about Norse mythology is from Snorri Sturluson and later Christians who translated Norse works.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are vague, but strong evidence that Odin and Freya probably had a relationship. As seen in the two answers before mine. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another problem with your is the nature of Norse Gods. In some cases, Freya and Frigga were the same, in others, they weren't. Freya/Frigga alone makes your question difficult to answer since there's not much evidence about Frigga/Freya being the same Goddess. As I said before, Norse mythology is a chaotic thing since they didn't write down their myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the end, we'll truly never know if Odin and Freya had a relationship, but we can never say, &quot;there's no way Odin and Freya would've had a relationship.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;Anyone who knows mythology are the craziest stories out there." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8532" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2079" RevisionGUID="89ec9873-b0df-4ee0-b198-5b2f6772cc8a" CreationDate="2016-11-06T23:57:09.483" UserId="3004" Comment="added 12 characters in body" Text="The problem with your question boils down to the chaotic nature of oral tradition, each region has their own stories and myths, some of which survived and others didn't. Much of what we know about Norse mythology is from Snorri Sturluson and later Christians who translated Norse works.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are vague, but strong evidence that Odin and Freya probably had a relationship. As seen in the two answers before mine. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another problem with your is the nature of Norse Gods. In some cases, Freya and Frigga were the same, in others, they weren't. Freya/Frigga alone makes your question difficult to answer since there's not much evidence about Frigga/Freya being the same Goddess. As I said before, Norse mythology is a chaotic thing since they didn't write down their myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the end, we'll truly never know if Odin and Freya had a relationship, but we can never say, &quot;there's no way Odin and Freya would've had a relationship.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;Anyone who knows mythology, knows they are the craziest stories out there." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8533" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2073" RevisionGUID="a4dd8b81-5445-4e31-ba7e-ae0e81591200" CreationDate="2016-11-07T00:26:20.093" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|odin|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8537" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2081" RevisionGUID="5869c2c1-3d26-4a43-8d6f-bc9b7c384323" CreationDate="2016-11-07T10:34:59.343" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="However, I will not be taking into account the Greco-Roman and Mesopotamian stories as they are the only stories that I know of in which a goddess loves a human.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8538" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2081" RevisionGUID="5869c2c1-3d26-4a43-8d6f-bc9b7c384323" CreationDate="2016-11-07T10:34:59.343" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Are there any instances where goddesses fall in love with mortals?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8539" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2081" RevisionGUID="5869c2c1-3d26-4a43-8d6f-bc9b7c384323" CreationDate="2016-11-07T10:34:59.343" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8541" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2082" RevisionGUID="758fd195-a681-4f5c-be9d-8c0b29484157" CreationDate="2016-11-07T19:00:48.853" UserId="742" Text="A friend of mine wrote to me that this is probably a reference to &quot;Jove&quot; which is another name for the Roman god Jupiter." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8542" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2083" RevisionGUID="fee13575-d4ef-4311-b973-1a2e9211fee9" CreationDate="2016-11-07T19:37:17.773" UserId="3139" Text="I hope this actually has an answer, I couldn't find anything but speculation on the web.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Basically, the story of Odin hanging from Yggdrasil is very similar to that of Jesus on the cross. Here are the stories broadly:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In order to learn of the runes that are used to control the worlds odin hangs himself from the great world tree Yggdrasil, and stabs himself with his spear. He forbids the other gods from helping him, and he then hangs there for 9 days, staring into the dark waters below, after which he gains the knowledge he searched for. Doing this was basically him making a sacrifice of himself to himself, a sacrifice that made him worthy to obtain the knowledge he wanted.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jesus is put on trial by the Romans and sentenced to death. He is put on a cross, on which he claims his father (God) has forsaken him. He dies, which is confirmed by stabbing him with a spear. He descends to hell, but comes back after 3 days, after which he has sacrificed himself (basically to himself in a different person), after which the sins of the world are forgiven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Note these may be somewhat loose interpretations and include things added by religions based on the texts instead of being in the original texts) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the similarities I see: Both are being sacrificed by hanging from something and being stabbed by a spear, are in darkness (hell/the dark waters below) for 3 or 3x3 days, without help from other deities, having now sacrificed themselves to themselves for the greater good.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now supposedly the Odin story is older, but as far as I'm aware we get it from Snorri Sturluson, who we know has added some christian motives in his other works (the Prose Edda for example).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any reasons to think the Odin story is not based on the Jesus story? And if so, is there any way the Odin story could have affected, or shared an origin with the Jesus story? Or is it just a coincidence?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8543" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2083" RevisionGUID="fee13575-d4ef-4311-b973-1a2e9211fee9" CreationDate="2016-11-07T19:37:17.773" UserId="3139" Text="Why is the story of Odin hanging from Yggdrasil so similar to that of Jesus on the cross?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8544" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2083" RevisionGUID="fee13575-d4ef-4311-b973-1a2e9211fee9" CreationDate="2016-11-07T19:37:17.773" UserId="3139" Text="|norse|odin|bible|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8545" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2077" RevisionGUID="50c5ea90-c44b-443f-8d08-2da61895cd77" CreationDate="2016-11-07T22:48:04.210" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags; edited title" Text="Is there a god called Iob/Job/Yov in Judiasm?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8546" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2077" RevisionGUID="50c5ea90-c44b-443f-8d08-2da61895cd77" CreationDate="2016-11-07T22:48:04.210" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags; edited title" Text="|myth-identification|abrahamic-religions|reference-request|names|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8548" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2084" RevisionGUID="34d009df-5e0e-4795-8d07-3538a2514c3b" CreationDate="2016-11-09T01:05:52.010" UserId="292" Text="I think you'll find that it's Apollo Clarius (Klarios) that you're looking for. While both names occur on the site Theoi.com, only Clarius has an entry, which makes me think that Clerius may be a misspelling. That it turns up nothing on [JSTOR][1] and very few hits on Google seems to confirm this.)  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;[Apollo Clarius][3] was an Ionic deity, and appeared on coins from that area. He had a famous temple and oracle at Colophon, one of the 12 Ionic cities.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;The [Theoi.com][2] entry for Apollo Clarius reads:  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; CLA′RIUS (Klarios), a surname of Apollo, derived from his celebrated&#xD;&#xA;&gt; temple at Claros in Asia Minor, which had been founded by Manto, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; daughter of Teiresias, who, after the conquest of her native city of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thebes, was made over to the Delphic god, and was then sent into the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; country, where subsequently Colophon was built by the Ionians. (Paus.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; vii. 3. § 1, ix. 33. § 1; Tacit. Ann. ii. 54; Strab. xiv. p. 642;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Virg. Aen. iii. 360; comp. Muller, Dor. ii. 2. § 7.) Clarius also&#xD;&#xA;&gt; occurs as a surname of Zeus, describing him as the god who distributes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; things by lot (klaros or klêros, Aeschyl. Suppl. 360). A hill near&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tegea was sacred to Zeus under this name. (Paus. viii. 53. § 4.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.jstor.org/action/doBasicSearch?Query=Apollo%20Clerius&amp;acc=on&amp;wc=on&amp;fc=off&amp;group=none&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Cult/ApollonTitles.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claros" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8549" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2085" RevisionGUID="f2678ff1-ff1a-4c64-ae24-9c524636d160" CreationDate="2016-11-09T18:59:29.447" UserId="2892" Text="It would be hard to know definitively if this was due Christian influence on Odin's narrative b/c we don't have pre-Christian textual sources for Odin's.  (i.e. This material was first recorded about 1000 years ago, long after the introduction of Christianity.)  Also, there is evidence of [hanging ordeals practiced by Native Americans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandan#Religion) which suggests that this type of ritual occurs independently.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Archetypes and symbols may provide some insight. The cross, or &quot;[crux](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/crux)&quot; is a gateway between worlds for Jesus.  Yggdrasil, the &quot;world tree&quot;, is quite literally a connector of worlds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3 is magic number across many cultures, so while that connection suggests Christian influence, it is not a foregone conclusion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Piercing with the spear, however, is quite specific and not so universal in my estimation, so that might very well be a Christian influence. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With all that said, I don't think there's any way to know for sure. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8552" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2087" RevisionGUID="d43aa2ce-6837-43ad-ac50-8a1f50d354cf" CreationDate="2016-11-11T17:32:59.897" UserId="3151" Text="If you are interested in Summerian mythology you can check out the Oracc Project here: [Link to the Oracc Project](http://oracc.museum.upenn.edu/projectlist.html)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8553" PostHistoryTypeId="16" PostId="2087" RevisionGUID="8df4c3c5-dea7-4383-8f1f-a1dadff28f4b" CreationDate="2016-11-11T17:32:59.897" UserId="3151" />
  <row Id="8555" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2077" RevisionGUID="6f80f430-acfe-466d-a041-a50598d080a8" CreationDate="2016-11-12T20:24:47.937" UserId="742" Comment="edited title" Text="Is there a god called Iob/Job/Yov?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8556" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2085" RevisionGUID="66e3ee88-6a6d-43de-9ec5-f9a08446a9fd" CreationDate="2016-11-12T21:12:48.960" UserId="2892" Comment="added 10 characters in body" Text="It would be hard to know definitively if this was due Christian influence on Odin's narrative b/c we don't have pre-Christian textual sources for Odin's.  (i.e. This material was first recorded about 1000 years ago, long after the introduction of Christianity in Europe.)  Also, there is evidence of [hanging ordeals practiced by Native Americans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandan#Religion) which suggests that this type of ritual occurs independently.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Archetypes and symbols may provide some insight. The cross, or &quot;[crux](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/crux)&quot; is a gateway between worlds for Jesus.  Yggdrasil, the &quot;world tree&quot;, is quite literally a connector of worlds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3 is magic number across many cultures, so while that connection suggests Christian influence, it is not a foregone conclusion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Piercing with the spear, however, is quite specific and not so universal in my estimation, so that might very well be a Christian influence. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With all that said, I don't think there's any way to know for sure. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8558" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2088" RevisionGUID="2b04cb22-37d7-4712-88be-257953304250" CreationDate="2016-11-13T20:10:42.833" UserId="992" Text="I recall reading about Vesta, and I believe that, like Mars and Saturn, she was more important to the Roman pantheon than the Greek. I'd like to know what the differences were between Vesta and Hestia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Inspired by http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/53/what-differences-were-there-in-greek-soldiers-worship-of-ares-and-roman-soldiers?rq=1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8559" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2088" RevisionGUID="2b04cb22-37d7-4712-88be-257953304250" CreationDate="2016-11-13T20:10:42.833" UserId="992" Text="What are the differences between the Greek Hestia and the Roman Vesta with regards to both mythology and worship?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8560" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2088" RevisionGUID="2b04cb22-37d7-4712-88be-257953304250" CreationDate="2016-11-13T20:10:42.833" UserId="992" Text="|greek|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8561" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2088" RevisionGUID="0e2207f0-2464-46ff-9916-5dc3cae1c070" CreationDate="2016-11-14T12:37:17.907" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|comparative|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8562" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2089" RevisionGUID="b1fe0aa6-ee5b-487a-a228-f09d64a2f6f7" CreationDate="2016-11-14T19:37:30.130" UserId="3158" Text="The use of a trio of witches is quite common in literature and lore. Greek, Slavic, and British tales have used them as antagonists or catalysts in their (sometimes cautionary) stories. In other sociological constructs, such as pagan and wiccan religions, their qualities and form (maiden, mother, and crone) are often revered.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm curious to know if the Three Witches from Macbeth share a common origin with other similar people/creatures such as the Stygian Witches or The Graeae." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8563" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2089" RevisionGUID="b1fe0aa6-ee5b-487a-a228-f09d64a2f6f7" CreationDate="2016-11-14T19:37:30.130" UserId="3158" Text="What’s the origin of the Weird Sisters in Macbeth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8564" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2089" RevisionGUID="b1fe0aa6-ee5b-487a-a228-f09d64a2f6f7" CreationDate="2016-11-14T19:37:30.130" UserId="3158" Text="|folklore|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8565" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2081" RevisionGUID="dfa2c0b8-3ef5-492c-9ea2-b77ac1592405" CreationDate="2016-11-15T19:22:32.843" UserId="3157" Comment="made the question more specific to prevent frustration" Text="Are there any instances where non-Greco-Roman goddesses fall in love with mortals?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8566" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2081" RevisionGUID="dfa2c0b8-3ef5-492c-9ea2-b77ac1592405" CreationDate="2016-11-15T19:22:32.843" Comment="Proposed by 3157 approved by 967, 292 edit id of 381" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8567" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2090" RevisionGUID="245c2dc4-49a9-46a8-a6fd-f800e9374ea1" CreationDate="2016-11-15T23:29:37.270" UserId="398" Text="There are a couple that I could find.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Clídna, the Irish goddess/Fairy Queen, had an affair with Ciabhan, John Fitzjames, and Earl Gerald Fitzgerald, among others.[1](https://books.google.com/books?id=nd9R6GQBB_0C&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;source=gbs_ge_summary_r&amp;cad=0#v=onepage&amp;q=Cl%C3%ADodhna&amp;f=false)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Bai Mudan was worshiped as a goddess who tempted men with sex. It's not quite love, but it's close. [Wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bai_Mudan_(mythology))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The West African [Mami Wata](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mami_Wata) spirits are analogous to Greek nymphs. They seem to fall in love, not just want sex, too.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Saxo [mentions](http://www.wyrdwords.vispa.com/goddesses/frigg/saxo.html) that Frigg slept with a servant, but Saxo had a Christian agenda and stated up front that he believed Frigg and Odin were actually people, not gods." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8577" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2083" RevisionGUID="cdb95114-4625-4cf5-b550-74757aff0244" CreationDate="2016-11-17T00:36:38.410" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|comparative|odin|bible|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8579" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2092" RevisionGUID="9385ae53-10ed-48f9-9972-417616d44652" CreationDate="2016-11-17T18:00:32.683" UserId="2892" Text="Been meaning to read this for a while, but there are quite a few translations out there." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8580" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2092" RevisionGUID="9385ae53-10ed-48f9-9972-417616d44652" CreationDate="2016-11-17T18:00:32.683" UserId="2892" Text="Is there a preferred, scholarly edition of the Gesta Danorum in English?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8581" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2092" RevisionGUID="9385ae53-10ed-48f9-9972-417616d44652" CreationDate="2016-11-17T18:00:32.683" UserId="2892" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8582" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2092" RevisionGUID="3c80141f-3f9d-427c-aa42-46fcea8e3007" CreationDate="2016-11-17T22:10:11.753" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|source-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8583" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2093" RevisionGUID="2ccd1f3f-aec1-4665-ac4d-2e16541c75a7" CreationDate="2016-11-17T22:27:39.397" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8584" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2093" RevisionGUID="2ccd1f3f-aec1-4665-ac4d-2e16541c75a7" CreationDate="2016-11-17T22:27:39.397" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8585" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2094" RevisionGUID="30eecdea-a94d-425e-9fee-6b763c015fad" CreationDate="2016-11-17T22:27:39.397" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8586" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2094" RevisionGUID="30eecdea-a94d-425e-9fee-6b763c015fad" CreationDate="2016-11-17T22:27:39.397" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8587" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1975" RevisionGUID="36051845-11f4-4d09-b68d-4dd45b4e5283" CreationDate="2016-11-17T22:29:31.667" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|translation|source-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8588" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2095" RevisionGUID="4fb63ee2-f595-4806-8f01-7625ca317952" CreationDate="2016-11-17T22:42:12.850" UserId="292" Text="[The translation][1] by Peter Fisher, with an introduction and commentary by Hilda Roderick Davidson, is easy to find, and reputable.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.amazon.ca/Saxo-Grammaticus-History-English-Commentary/dp/0859915026/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1479422420&amp;sr=1-2" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8589" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2096" RevisionGUID="c6dc38d9-1a9b-4d53-a074-f27e741aa443" CreationDate="2016-11-17T22:52:12.250" UserId="292" Text="In the Irish tale The [Sickbed of Cuchulainn][1] the hero has an affair with Fand, a fairy woman. It ends unhappily, as the otherworld and this world cannot be together. Fand returns to her husband, the sea-god and magician [Manannan mac Lir][2], and Cuchulainn goes back to his wife, Emer. To make sure they never meet again, Manannan shakes his cloak between Cuchulainn and Fand.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.luminarium.org/mythology/ireland/cuchulainnsick.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manann%C3%A1n_mac_Lir" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8592" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1995" RevisionGUID="ebe5a6ec-71e4-4ddd-b6e4-2ecd8362a29b" CreationDate="2016-11-19T01:57:54.077" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="8593" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2045" RevisionGUID="f0f02f42-9d8f-47b7-ba7d-6b770edfe7bf" CreationDate="2016-11-19T21:13:13.637" UserId="2892" Comment="Added a note that the mystery Graves passage could be apocryphal, and transliteration of νήπιον" Text="Time and chronology tend to be fairly loose in Greek mythology, particularly as there are usually multiple authors treating the same subjects.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regardless, Achilles is presumed to be a youth at the start of the war.  In this famous vase painting, he is depicted as beardless:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Achilles tending Patroclus wounded by an arrow, identified by inscriptions on the upper part of the vase. Tondo of an Attic red-figure kylix, ca. 500 BC. From Vulci.][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[You can read more about this vase at the Perseus site at Tufts.](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/artifact?name=Berlin+F+2278&amp;object=Vase)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You may recall that Cúchulainn, a warrior of similar prowess and invincibility, is also noted to be beardless during the action of the Táin, which causes some warriors to balk at dueling him. [In this passage](https://books.google.com/books?id=h-WoRsfK99UC&amp;pg=PA134&amp;dq=cuchullain+berry+juice+beard+fistful+of+grass&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiSsZ73j-jPAhUBJx4KHV0XDboQ6AEINjAA#v=onepage&amp;q=cuchullain%20berry%20juice%20beard%20fistful%20of%20grass&amp;f=false) he resorts to using berry juice and grass to fake a beard. [The Tain, Kinsella, p.134]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both Achilles and Cúchulainn performed amazing martial feats in childhood--the latter killed the monstrous hound from which his name derives, and the former was said to have killed his first boar by age 6. Thus extreme youth, as early as 11 or 12, is not implausible for Achilles at the outset of the war.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also the very well known story from several post-Homeric sources of [Thetis spiriting Achilles away to Skyros](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles#Other_stories) to dress as a girl and hide among the women there as a way of avoiding his tragic fate were he to sail to Troy.  When Nestor, Ajax and Odysseus went to suss him out, it is mentioned they never would have pierced the disguise had Odysseus not tricked him into revealing himself.  (Legend holds that Odysseus dumped out a pile of gifts for the girls, but also included a shield and spear, which Achilles seized, stripping himself to the waist.  [The Greek Myths, Graves, 160k]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This implies he has to be young enough to pass for a girl. Unless Achilles was extremely feminine, a possible implication is that his voice had not yet changed.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Achilles was also said to have fathered Neoptolemus at Skyros, but I'd caution against imposing contemporary mores in terms of appropriate ages for fatherhood.  He could have just hit puberty when he conceives his son.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Robert Graves mentions the age of 15, citing Homer himself [The Greek Myths, Graves, 160.l], but I haven't been able to track down the exact passage—the version of the Iliad Graves was working from may have had different numbering or may have had passages that are now considered apocryphal. However, he does lead to some useful passages.  In one, Phoenix says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  It was to thee that the old horseman Peleus sent me on the day when he sent thee to Agamemnon, forth from Phthia, [440] a mere child, knowing naught as yet of evil war...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Iliad, Murray, ix.438-440](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D417)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is interesting about that passage, when you go to Greek, is that Homer uses the term [νήπιον](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=nh%2Fpion&amp;la=greek&amp;can=nh%2Fpion0&amp;prior=pe/mpe&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0133:book=9:card=417&amp;i=1#lexicon) (&quot;nhay-pee-on&quot;) which not only means child, but in some cases, specifically a pre-pubescent child. *(The LSJ entry from the word link makes direct reference to this passage in the Iliad.)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My best guess is that he would have been in his mid-teens at the outset of the war, but he certainly could have been a few years younger or older.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the age of Paris, that's much more of a rabbit hole. However, based on the age differential you mention, we can infer that he was in his late twenties to his mid-thirties.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;__________________________________&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Hope this answer provides some satisfaction.  I'll continue to try and hunt down the mystery passage cited by Graves.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/m6GLX.jpg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8595" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2097" RevisionGUID="23c8e2f4-46d1-40ae-a79b-b7afb299e93c" CreationDate="2016-11-20T14:49:15.540" UserId="3177" Text="As stated in many scholarly books, there are two &quot;versions&quot; of Prose Tristan: short version (attributed to Luce de Gat) and long version (attributed to Helie de Boron).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But I cannot understand why these texts are called &quot;versions&quot;, instead of &quot;parts&quot;. From my point of view, it is just two successive parts, like Volume 1 and Volume 2.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Maybe the &quot;version&quot; is just incorrect term, or maybe I don't have enough understanding about something?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To be precise, at this time I haven't read not the first nor the second version of the text itself. Instead, I started my journey from reading scholarly books, like [this one][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.ru/books?id=xVWBAAAAQBAJ" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8596" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2097" RevisionGUID="23c8e2f4-46d1-40ae-a79b-b7afb299e93c" CreationDate="2016-11-20T14:49:15.540" UserId="3177" Text="Prose Tristan: versions vs parts. (Terminology)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8597" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2097" RevisionGUID="23c8e2f4-46d1-40ae-a79b-b7afb299e93c" CreationDate="2016-11-20T14:49:15.540" UserId="3177" Text="|history|europe|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8598" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2097" RevisionGUID="f755d742-e913-4a90-8234-618cb80e3714" CreationDate="2016-11-20T18:10:45.297" UserId="3177" Comment="[Edit removed during grace period]" Text="As stated in many scholarly books, there are two &quot;versions&quot; of Prose Tristan: short version (attributed to Luce de Gat) and long version (attributed to Helie de Boron).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But I cannot understand why these texts are called &quot;versions&quot;, instead of &quot;parts&quot;. From my point of view, it is just two successive parts, like Volume 1 and Volume 2.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Maybe the &quot;version&quot; is just incorrect term, or maybe I don't have enough understanding about something?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To be precise, at this time I haven't read not the first nor the second version of the text itself. Instead, I started my journey from reading scholarly books, like [this one][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.ru/books?id=xVWBAAAAQBAJ" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8599" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2098" RevisionGUID="485ab9ec-5f25-4a7e-82ea-08d04a3a016c" CreationDate="2016-11-20T19:47:05.723" UserId="398" Text="It's less of a myth thing and more of terminology. It's not called &quot;volume&quot; because that would imply authorial or official continuity. Same with &quot;part&quot;. Volumes and parts assume a whole, but Helie de Boron's work builds off of and even reworks parts of Luce de Gat's version. That makes it a true version and not just a sequel.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For a general overview, check out J. Douglas Bruce's [Evolution of Arthurian Romance](https://archive.org/stream/evolutionofarthu00bruc#page/486/mode/2up)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8600" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2099" RevisionGUID="bb1d43dd-9642-470e-8d45-fa911b9ada48" CreationDate="2016-11-20T20:05:59.980" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="The word volume implies that the story was split into parts. If a book was split into a &quot;volume one&quot; or a &quot;volume two&quot;, I would expect that volume one would  contain only the beginning of the story, and that volume two would only contain the end of the story. To read the full story I would need to read volume one first, and then volume two.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The word version implies that the overall story is the same, but that the text has been revised or interpreted differently. For example, Stack Exchange allows people to edit content. If I edited your question, it would result in a new version of the question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The website [Medieval Francophone Literary Cultures][1], which is run by several universities, claims that the names Luce de Gat and Helie de Boron are pseudonyms. It also claims that while it's likely that &quot;one author began the project of the prose Tristan and his work was then extended by another,&quot; it's hard to know for sure as &quot;the relative contributions of 'Luce' and 'Helie' remain unclear&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(C. M. Weiner's answer is correct. I started writing my answer, took a break, came back and saw that he had posted his. So now you have two answers saying the same thing!)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.medievalfrancophone.ac.uk/textual-traditions-and-segments/tristan/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8601" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2099" RevisionGUID="5edf2c3e-53af-4b97-81aa-3cb3db71a39e" CreationDate="2016-11-20T20:06:55.480" UserId="398" Comment="edited body" Text="The word volume implies that the story was split into parts. If a book was split into a &quot;volume one&quot; or a &quot;volume two&quot;, I would expect that volume one would  contain only the beginning of the story, and that volume two would only contain the end of the story. To read the full story I would need to read volume one first, and then volume two.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The word version implies that the overall story is the same, but that the text has been revised or interpreted differently. For example, Stack Exchange allows people to edit content. If I edited your question, it would result in a new version of the question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The website [Medieval Francophone Literary Cultures][1], which is run by several universities, claims that the names Luce de Gat and Helie de Boron are pseudonyms. It also claims that while it's likely that &quot;one author began the project of the prose Tristan and his work was then extended by another,&quot; it's hard to know for sure as &quot;the relative contributions of 'Luce' and 'Helie' remain unclear&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(C. M. Weimer's answer is correct. I started writing my answer, took a break, came back and saw that he had posted his. So now you have two answers saying the same thing!)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.medievalfrancophone.ac.uk/textual-traditions-and-segments/tristan/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8602" PostHistoryTypeId="12" PostId="2099" RevisionGUID="725a2cba-bfdf-415b-9a07-8784c4f62957" CreationDate="2016-11-20T20:10:05.300" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="via Vote" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:62,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Hamlet&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="8603" PostHistoryTypeId="13" PostId="2099" RevisionGUID="3fa276b0-d7be-4273-abe9-2b6cfd824799" CreationDate="2016-11-20T20:11:56.197" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:62,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Hamlet&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="8604" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2099" RevisionGUID="784f7c2a-444e-4dc3-b1de-726ac2e476f5" CreationDate="2016-11-20T20:13:59.397" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="deleted 44 characters in body" Text="(C. M. Weimer's answer is correct. I started writing my answer, took a break, came back and saw that he had posted his. So now you have two answers.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The word part implies that the story was split up. If a book was split into a &quot;part one&quot; or a &quot;part two&quot;, I would expect that part one would  contain only the beginning of the story, and that part two would only contain the end of the story. To read the full story I would need to read part one first, and then part two.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The word version implies that the overall story is the same, but that the text has been revised or interpreted differently. For example, Stack Exchange allows people to edit content. If I edited your question, it would result in a new version of the question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The website [Medieval Francophone Literary Cultures][1], which is run by several universities, claims that the names Luce de Gat and Helie de Boron are pseudonyms. It also claims that while it's likely that &quot;one author began the project of the prose Tristan and his work was then extended by another,&quot; it's hard to know for sure as &quot;the relative contributions of 'Luce' and 'Helie' remain unclear&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.medievalfrancophone.ac.uk/textual-traditions-and-segments/tristan/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8608" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2100" RevisionGUID="922b713d-8a4c-4d96-a952-8bc688a080b6" CreationDate="2016-11-22T21:21:19.743" UserId="2892" Text="Specifically, both parties &quot;grow&quot; people by sowing &quot;bones&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Deucalion and Phyrra sow &quot;the bones of [their] mother&quot; which is interpreted as being &quot;mother earth&quot; and thus rocks.  Thus they repopulated the earth after the flood.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Cadmus sows dragon's teeth, and after a slight kerfuffle, founds Thebes with the surviving *spartoi*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there other points of commonality with these figures?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8609" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2100" RevisionGUID="922b713d-8a4c-4d96-a952-8bc688a080b6" CreationDate="2016-11-22T21:21:19.743" UserId="2892" Text="Are there any similarities between the Deucalion/Phyrra myth and Cadmus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8610" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2100" RevisionGUID="922b713d-8a4c-4d96-a952-8bc688a080b6" CreationDate="2016-11-22T21:21:19.743" UserId="2892" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8611" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="1995" RevisionGUID="aa849c12-dd2f-49d1-8db9-e20857945693" CreationDate="2016-11-23T01:12:57.847" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="31" />
  <row Id="8612" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2101" RevisionGUID="751448ed-81a9-492c-8699-1c6df01a57db" CreationDate="2016-11-23T04:59:12.493" UserId="3183" Text="am bit curious to know that,when did lord indra asked for kawach-kundal to karna?it's before kurukshetra war or mid of war?because while  making link-up of many things related to karna's life mostly i got confused if i will get this question answer correctly it will clear many of my doubts" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8613" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2101" RevisionGUID="751448ed-81a9-492c-8699-1c6df01a57db" CreationDate="2016-11-23T04:59:12.493" UserId="3183" Text="when did lord indra asked for kawach-kundal to karna?it's before kurukshetra war or in mid of war?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8614" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2101" RevisionGUID="751448ed-81a9-492c-8699-1c6df01a57db" CreationDate="2016-11-23T04:59:12.493" UserId="3183" Text="|hindu|india|mythohistory|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8616" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2101" RevisionGUID="a39d7967-4736-4e65-916a-0f07db4825e6" CreationDate="2016-11-23T13:59:08.273" UserId="967" Comment="edited title" Text="When did Lord Indra asked for Kawach-Kundal to Karna? It's before Kurukshetra war or in the mid of war?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8617" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2101" RevisionGUID="a39d7967-4736-4e65-916a-0f07db4825e6" CreationDate="2016-11-23T13:59:08.273" UserId="967" Comment="edited title" Text="I am a bit curious to know that when did lord indra asked for Kawach-Kundal to Karna? It's before Kurukshetra war or mid of war? Because while  making link-up of many things related to karna's life, mostly I got confused." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8618" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2102" RevisionGUID="b10d1690-c133-49dd-bbc6-a7906074ed60" CreationDate="2016-11-23T19:31:45.577" UserId="2892" Text="We also know the stories of Thetis dipping her son in the river Styx to make him nigh-invulnerable, but there is conflicting evidence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Those who have read the Iliad may remember the incident with &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the warrior Asteropaeus hurled with both spears at once, for he was one that could use both hands alike. With the one spear he smote the shield, but it brake not through, for the gold stayed it, the gift of the god and with the other he smote the right forearm of Achilles a grazing blow, and the black blood gushed forth; but the spear-point passed above him and fixed itself in the earth, fain to glut itself with flesh.&#xD;&#xA;[Hom. Il. 21.161](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D21%3Acard%3D161)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But even here, there is the implication that the weapon itself was disinclined to do serious damage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is Euripides, the great iconoclast of Greek Drama that makes a big deal of it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Achilles**:&#xD;&#xA;A fearful cry is heard among the Argives.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Clytemnestra**: What is it? tell me.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**Achilles**: It concerns your child.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Clytemnestra**: An evil omen for your words.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**Achilles**: They say her sacrifice is necessary.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**Clytemnestra**: And is there no one to say a word against them?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Achilles**: Indeed I was in some danger myself from the tumult.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Clytemnestra**: In danger of what, stranger?.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Achilles**: Of being stoned.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[Eur. IA 1347](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0108%3Acard%3D1338)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Euripides was surely playing off of the myth of Achilles' invincibility.  In this scene, the hero who fights whole armies single-handedly feels himself in danger when faced with armed conflict with the Argives.  This moment is pretty shocking to those raised with the Thetis story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what gives? Was Achilles nigh-invincible or not?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8619" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2102" RevisionGUID="b10d1690-c133-49dd-bbc6-a7906074ed60" CreationDate="2016-11-23T19:31:45.577" UserId="2892" Text="How invincible was Achilles really?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8620" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2102" RevisionGUID="b10d1690-c133-49dd-bbc6-a7906074ed60" CreationDate="2016-11-23T19:31:45.577" UserId="2892" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8621" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2102" RevisionGUID="6c6d316a-9dc8-44c6-a3c5-d0bce9ef8235" CreationDate="2016-11-23T20:32:25.377" UserId="967" Comment="added 21 characters in body" Text="We also know the stories of Thetis dipping her son in the river Styx to make him nigh-invulnerable, but there is conflicting evidence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Those who have read the Iliad may remember the incident with &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the warrior Asteropaeus hurled with both spears at once, for he was one that could use both hands alike. With the one spear he smote the shield, but it brake not through, for the gold stayed it, the gift of the god and with the other he smote the right forearm of Achilles a grazing blow, and the black blood gushed forth; but the spear-point passed above him and fixed itself in the earth, fain to glut itself with flesh.&#xD;&#xA;[Hom. Il. 21.161](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D21%3Acard%3D161)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But even here, there is the implication that the weapon itself was disinclined to do serious damage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is Euripides, the great iconoclast of Greek Drama that makes a big deal of it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Achilles**:&#xD;&#xA;A fearful cry is heard among the Argives.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Clytemnestra**: What is it? tell me.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**Achilles**: It concerns your child.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Clytemnestra**: An evil omen for your words.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**Achilles**: They say her sacrifice is necessary.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**Clytemnestra**: And is there no one to say a word against them?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Achilles**: Indeed I was in some danger myself from the tumult.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Clytemnestra**: In danger of what, stranger?.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Achilles**: Of being stoned.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[Eur. IA 1347](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0108%3Acard%3D1338)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Euripides was surely playing off of the myth of Achilles' invincibility.  In this scene, the hero who fights whole armies single-handedly feels himself in danger when faced with armed conflict with the Argives. This moment is pretty shocking to those raised with the Thetis story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what gives? **Was Achilles nigh-invincible or not, excluding his heel?**&#xD;&#xA; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8622" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2103" RevisionGUID="eb279b75-39f3-437e-bd18-1d4ac45d1ab0" CreationDate="2016-11-23T21:10:37.470" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="[This relatively popular question on the Stack Exchange Worldbuilding site][1] claims that legends originate from history:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Given a vaguely European Medieval society free of magic, **how long does it take for historic record to devolve into fiction**? Rephrased, how long would it take an Arthurian legend to form, where the scholars of the setting don't know how much of it (or if any of it) is based on actual historic events and people?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is that accurate? Does history actually &quot;devolve&quot; into oral literature (folklore)? Or is the creation of folklore -- even folklore that features historical figures -- created through another process?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/q/62140/171" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8623" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2103" RevisionGUID="eb279b75-39f3-437e-bd18-1d4ac45d1ab0" CreationDate="2016-11-23T21:10:37.470" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="Do legends originate from history?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8624" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2103" RevisionGUID="eb279b75-39f3-437e-bd18-1d4ac45d1ab0" CreationDate="2016-11-23T21:10:37.470" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="|folkloristics|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8626" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2103" RevisionGUID="dde66681-6333-4069-b748-84227763cceb" CreationDate="2016-11-23T21:40:30.830" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added more examples of this belief" Text="[This relatively popular question on the Stack Exchange Worldbuilding site][1] claims that legends originate from history:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Given a vaguely European Medieval society free of magic, **how long does it take for historic record to devolve into fiction**? Rephrased, how long would it take an Arthurian legend to form, where the scholars of the setting don't know how much of it (or if any of it) is based on actual historic events and people?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This idea is a common trope in fantasy][2] -- for example, Galadriel (a character from *The Lord of the Rings*) famously says that &quot;History became legend. Legend became myth.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is that accurate? Does history actually &quot;devolve&quot; into oral literature (folklore)? Or is the creation of folklore -- even folklore that features historical figures -- created through another process?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/q/62140/171&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LegendFadesToMyth" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8627" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2104" RevisionGUID="b63ead6a-c551-448b-aac5-64e864e5876f" CreationDate="2016-11-23T22:18:54.260" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="The answer is in the quote:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; All the losses that ever I have caused thee,&quot; said he, &quot;I will make thee atonement for, **equal to what I have taken**. And I will never do the like from this time forth. **But thy faithful vassal will I be**.&quot; And the king accepted this from him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Presumably, the atonement consists of this man giving Lludd the food back (or something equivalent in value), and of becoming Lludd's vassal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The magician isn't mentioned anywhere else in the Welsh cannon, so this is as much information as you are going to get. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8628" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2105" RevisionGUID="9bb092cf-bbd9-4194-81ee-d71ce73315f6" CreationDate="2016-11-23T22:32:22.847" UserId="2892" Text="Chinese Mythology is instructive in this regard.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;History and Mythology were conflated up until the 20th century, so you have cycles, such as the [&quot;Three Kingdoms&quot;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Kingdoms), which are both historical and mythological. [Lord Guan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guan_Yu#Worship_of_Guan_Yu) is a hero of the Three Kingdoms period who famously, posthumously became one of the most revered gods in the Chinese pantheon.  Even the history of his elevation to godhood is conflated with mythology because the sources related to it are not academic, but folkloric, and the apotheosis took place in stages over about 1500 years. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Contemporary Chinese mythology is particularly interesting because we can see mythology forming in historic times before our eyes.  Here I am talking about figures such as [Wong Fei-Hung](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wong_Fei-hung), who was both an historical person, and rose to prominence through the new medium of cinema to occupy a central place in Chinese Heroic Folklore.  For context, there have been literally hundreds of films about Fei-Hung--far more than all of the Western superhero movies combined.  *[I addressed this phenomenon in more detail [here](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2048/to-what-degree-are-depictions-of-beggar-so-influenced-by-the-immortal-li-tieguai)]*.  There is no parallel in the West that I know of.  In the case of Fei-Hung, it was about 25 years after his death that he began to be mythologized in film.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8629" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2105" RevisionGUID="5767082b-d551-4800-9ca3-516496aa48f4" CreationDate="2016-11-23T22:46:56.627" UserId="2892" Comment="Added a section on Duke of Zhou " Text="Chinese Mythology is instructive in this regard.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;History and Mythology were conflated up until the 20th century, so you have cycles, such as the [&quot;Three Kingdoms&quot;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Kingdoms), which are both historical and mythological. [Lord Guan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guan_Yu#Worship_of_Guan_Yu) is a hero of the Three Kingdoms period who famously, posthumously became one of the most revered gods in the Chinese pantheon.  Even the history of his elevation to godhood is conflated with mythology because the sources related to it are not academic, but folkloric, and the apotheosis took place in stages over about 1500 years. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Duke of Zhou](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Zhou) is a similar figure.  One of the great sages of antiquity and a central figure in Chinese history and culture.  The Duke of Zhou is credited with the concept of the &quot;Mandate of Heaven&quot; which led to the overthrow of the Shang Dynasty, which is itself recounted in work such as &quot;[The Creation of the Gods](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investiture_of_the_Gods)&quot;.  The Duke of Zhou was inadvertently deified as the [God of Dreams](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Zhou#God_of_Dreams) based on a misunderstanding of a quote by [Master Kong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Contemporary Chinese mythology is particularly interesting because we can see mythology forming in historic times before our eyes.  Here I am talking about figures such as [Wong Fei-Hung](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wong_Fei-hung), who was both an historical person, and rose to prominence through the new medium of cinema to occupy a central place in Chinese Heroic Folklore.  For context, there have been literally hundreds of films about Fei-Hung--far more than all of the Western superhero movies combined.  *[I addressed this phenomenon in more detail [here](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2048/to-what-degree-are-depictions-of-beggar-so-influenced-by-the-immortal-li-tieguai)]*.  There is no parallel in the West that I know of.  In the case of Fei-Hung, it was about 25 years after his death that he began to be mythologized in film.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8630" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2105" RevisionGUID="30483edd-e7c3-4964-b3f5-fedad5fecf32" CreationDate="2016-11-23T22:54:18.370" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 11 characters in body" Text="Chinese Mythology is instructive in this regard.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;History and Mythology were conflated up until the 20th century, so you have cycles, such as the [&quot;Three Kingdoms&quot;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Kingdoms), which are both historical and mythological. [Lord Guan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guan_Yu#Worship_of_Guan_Yu) is a hero of the Three Kingdoms period who famously, posthumously became one of the most revered gods in the Chinese pantheon.  Even the history of his elevation to godhood is conflated with mythology because the sources related to it are not academic, but folkloric, and the apotheosis took place in stages over about 1500 years. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Duke of Zhou](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Zhou), one of the great sages of antiquity and a seminal figure in Chinese history and culture, is a similar figure. The Duke of Zhou is credited with the concept of the &quot;Mandate of Heaven&quot; which led to the overthrow of the Shang Dynasty, itself recounted in work such as &quot;[The Creation of the Gods](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investiture_of_the_Gods)&quot;.  The Duke of Zhou was inadvertently deified as the [God of Dreams](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Zhou#God_of_Dreams) based on a misunderstanding of a quote by [Master Kong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Contemporary Chinese mythology is particularly interesting because we can see mythology forming in historic times before our eyes.  Here I am talking about figures such as [Wong Fei-Hung](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wong_Fei-hung), who was both an historical person, and rose to prominence through the new medium of cinema to occupy a central place in Chinese Heroic Folklore.  For context, there have been literally hundreds of films about Fei-Hung--far more than all of the Western superhero movies combined.  *[I addressed this phenomenon in more detail [here](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2048/to-what-degree-are-depictions-of-beggar-so-influenced-by-the-immortal-li-tieguai)]*.  There is no parallel in the West that I know of.  In the case of Fei-Hung, it was about 25 years after his death that he began to be mythologized in film.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8631" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1817" RevisionGUID="61c4dcb5-35ec-4c0e-b3bd-8418f11b72f7" CreationDate="2016-11-23T22:55:15.663" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="8632" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2102" RevisionGUID="69e4bbe9-4326-4852-8516-4f18cb508078" CreationDate="2016-11-23T22:55:35.510" UserId="2892" Comment="&quot;nigh-invincible&quot; is used because of the heel.  (i.e. it literally means &quot;nearly invincible&quot;.)" Text="We also know the stories of Thetis dipping her son in the river Styx to make him nigh-invulnerable, but there is conflicting evidence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Those who have read the Iliad may remember the incident with &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the warrior Asteropaeus hurled with both spears at once, for he was one that could use both hands alike. With the one spear he smote the shield, but it brake not through, for the gold stayed it, the gift of the god and with the other he smote the right forearm of Achilles a grazing blow, and the black blood gushed forth; but the spear-point passed above him and fixed itself in the earth, fain to glut itself with flesh.&#xD;&#xA;[Hom. Il. 21.161](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D21%3Acard%3D161)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But even here, there is the implication that the weapon itself was disinclined to do serious damage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is Euripides, the great iconoclast of Greek Drama that makes a big deal of it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Achilles**:&#xD;&#xA;A fearful cry is heard among the Argives.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Clytemnestra**: What is it? tell me.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**Achilles**: It concerns your child.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Clytemnestra**: An evil omen for your words.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**Achilles**: They say her sacrifice is necessary.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**Clytemnestra**: And is there no one to say a word against them?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Achilles**: Indeed I was in some danger myself from the tumult.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Clytemnestra**: In danger of what, stranger?.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Achilles**: Of being stoned.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[Eur. IA 1347](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0108%3Acard%3D1338)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Euripides was surely playing off of the myth of Achilles' invincibility.  In this scene, the hero who fights whole armies single-handedly feels himself in danger when faced with armed conflict with the Argives. This moment is pretty shocking to those raised with the Thetis story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what gives? **Was Achilles nigh-invincible or not?**&#xD;&#xA; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8633" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2106" RevisionGUID="480b7d27-61b8-43f3-a461-5a92fe43b66f" CreationDate="2016-11-24T00:46:23.387" UserId="398" Text="The Styx story in the literary sources is very late. Nothing like it occurs in Homer or throughout Classical Greek antiquity. In fact, as Gantz (1993: 625–627) points out, we don't have a solid attestation for it until the Roman period.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is complicated by the artistic tradition, though. Gantz identifies four vases which show Achilles with an arrow in his heel, killed by Paris, all very early. It's likely that the Thetis story was one of the several traditions concerning Achilles' birth and death circulating at the time. The *Iliad* appears to be a separate tradition, one where the armor, not the skin, of Achilles was invincible. The scholia too know of a story where Achilles was cut down by Paris, not shot with an arrow.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source: Timothy Gantz' *Early Greek Myth: A Guide to Literary and Artistic Sources* (JHU Press, 1993)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8634" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1387" RevisionGUID="30898843-34fa-4b01-bc60-1c4d50655916" CreationDate="2016-11-24T01:36:11.880" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="trying to make the definition of folklore more accurate" Text="For questions about the academic discipline of folkloristics, i.e. the study of folklore." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8635" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1387" RevisionGUID="30898843-34fa-4b01-bc60-1c4d50655916" CreationDate="2016-11-24T01:36:11.880" Comment="Proposed by 62 approved by 967, 398 edit id of 385" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8636" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="1995" RevisionGUID="06e22dbc-1701-4c55-bdea-2570cde6f88d" CreationDate="2016-11-24T02:19:22.557" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="31" />
  <row Id="8637" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2107" RevisionGUID="ee5477d1-4526-4083-9038-d433d8319094" CreationDate="2016-11-24T13:42:55.637" UserId="2774" Text="That is a great question!!!&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And I will give here a description of 3 cases.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sumer&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Sumerians myths are closely formed by 2 epics/cycles/matters/stories. The Cycle of Aratta, and the Cycle of Gilgamesh (not to be confused with the Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh).&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The cycle (I will use cycle here) of Aratta is telling the story of the fight between the City of Ur and the city of Aratta and the defeat of Aratta. It is formed by 4 different stories. In the first one, the conflict is solved by psychological warfare and diplomacy. In the 3 others by traditional war. It involves the legendary king Enmersikar, and the hero Lugalbanda (father of Gilgamesh).&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now let's talk about history. Sumer (and to some extend Mesopotamia) was not a kingdom in modern sense but a bunch of city states with no real cohesion, very similar to the Greek City states. We know for sure they was in constant war status/rivalry between each others. One of the story with Gilgamesh shows us Ur in conflict with another city.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;On that the Cycle of Aratta truly reflect the war status in Sumer. It shows us that Sumerians was aware of diplomacy and war as mean to subdue foe. Now, per se, both Sumerians cycles are recent, they date from late Ur dynasty shortly before the end of Sumer. They are obviously propaganda material made by late Urian rulers wanted to show the strength of Ur and their own legitimacy.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;To what extend does it reflect an actual conflict? Considering this is late writing, we can't tell, and the diplomatic writing in 3000 B.C. are let's face it inexistent. Gilgamesh was dead from a long time and the fight between Ur and Aratta long finished. But as with later Troy we can safely assume, from our knowledge of the status of Sumer, that a war between Ur and Aratta could have happened. We know also Ur was lacking some resources (stones here) and subduing such a city was of interest. So we can assume for Sumer both their great cycles are based on &quot;related historical events&quot;. And also they totally reflect something: the constant war status that will plague Sumer and finally led it to its demise when king Hammurabi of Babylon put an end to Sumer.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;**Suggested reading:** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The [Matter of Aratta][1] by Leo Oppenheim&#xD;&#xA; - [King Hammurabi][2] by Marc Van de Mieroop, I give this one just because it is one of the first documented king we have and this recent edition includes the recent find of the Mari's archives. It gives you a good idea of the true warfare status during Hammurabi's time as well as how he solved conflict with wars and diplomacy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Egypt&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;I suspect anyone know about Horus, Osiris, Ra and such...&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The first thing to see is Egypt is 2500/3000 years of history. Comparing predynastic time, Old Kingdom, Middle Kingdom and New Kingdom is at best funny. Here is a predynastic document (the Narmer tablet):&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Anyone will recognize Horus here as a falcon. The bulls we see are the Goddess Bat. And basically it is known that it depicts the unification of the two Kingdoms of Egypt (Upper and Lower) during Narmer's reign (before the first dynasty, so during dynasty 0).&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Is is suspected that the mythological fight between Horus and Set is a representation of the fight between Upper and Lower Egypt (the two kingdoms). Notice the tablet here does no represent Set, when it links Narmer with Horus (see the falcon). So to what extend the fight between Horus and Set could represent that unification. Knowing that it is unclear who conquered what (Upper to Lower or Lower to Upper) this is an uneasy task.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Horus has vastly be a god related to the Pharaoh. It is so old that even in predynastic time He is there. One thing is sure. Most of the legend surrounding Horus (and Set) are post Old Kingdom (post pyramid text). At a time when Egypt is largely two Kingdoms. What could be the chance that Egyptian in Middle Kingdom, who was everything but historians, knew anything about the unification events?&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Suggested reading:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Ancient Egypt: Anatomy of a Civilization][4] by Barry Kemp, not an easy book, but one the best I have read.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Europe&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;Finally let's talk a little bit about Europe. During Middle Age there is the infamous Matters, Italian, French and English. The English one are about King Arthur which probably was an historical figure. Note that on a pure historical way, talking about 'French' and 'English' is quite a mistake. English Arthurian cycle really start with the Plantagenet, Both Henri II Plantagenet (founder) and his wife Alienor of Aquitaine was both French and the main writers Chretien of Troyes is French.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;But we don't know a lot about the historical Arthur. Fortunately for us the French Matter is about King Charles. And here we know. Let's give a short summary. The Roman empire is conquered by Germanics Barbarians (Ostrogoth, Wisigoth, Franks, etc.). One of them the Franks (modern France come from them) will give two great dynasties first the Merovingians (cf. The Matrix movies) then the Carolingians. One of the main Carolingian figure is Charlemagne the subject of French Matter.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Charlemagne is well known for 3 features:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - He became Emperor, de facto becoming the Roman successor&#xD;&#xA; - He vanquished the Saxons, that neither the Romans nor the Merovingians managed to handle&#xD;&#xA; - He tried to conquered the Muslim Spain, this one is a subject of the French Matter&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On a pure historical fact, the conquest of Spain was a political gesture (toward Rome and the Pope) as well as promise of richness. One of the greatest feature of Charlemagne was to understand this was an horrible mistake and quickly withdraw and concentrate on the Saxons, the goal of his life. This actually shaped Europe between England, France, Spain, and the Germanic Empire. Would he had tried to stay in Spain, history would be vastly different. His withdrawal from Spain is on the same level as the heroic Greek's resistance against the Persians.Greece outshined the world after the Medic Wars. Without the Greeks stopping the Persians, no Socrates, no Plato, no Euclid (No maths, no physics, no philosophy). Considering Charlemagne could not handle both the Saxons and Spain, no one can express how smart a gesture this was.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;One of the greatest song of Charlemagne is about his retreat from Spain when his rear army, lead By Roland was attacked and defeated and Roland exploding his throat by blowing his horn. This was an historical event, about a &quot;Frankish defeat&quot; (put that on the same level as the Thermopilae is a Greek defeat). Now the heroic features presented in the Matter are totally unreal (even Roland's death...), but the event is. We have here the chance to track the difference between the Matter presenting a defeat as a final victory and the purely historical &quot;defeat&quot;.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;We can safely here do so safe comparison between Arthurian Matter which perhaps used an historical figure (A guy named Arthur). And the Charles Matter which used an historical figure that we know. In both case, anyway, the resulting figure appears very different. You do not have an idea of the politics or mind of the people of Arthurian or Charles time. Those are Chivalry novels. On the same way we can assume the Cycle of Gilgamesh/Aratta are far from the preoccupation of Gilgamesh.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;**Suggested reading**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The [Song of Roland][5], as I can read old French I unfortunately cannot give any good English translation, I picked one.&#xD;&#xA; - [ Charlemagne: The Formation of a European Identity][6] by Rosamond McKitterick, one great English study.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sumary&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does myths/legends are coming from actual historical events? If the song of Roland actually did, if the Iliad and the Odyssey did, The Medic Wars was covered only by Herodotus. Knowing their historical importance vastly outlive the Trojan war.If the Cycle of Aratta or Gilgamesh could cover historical events, we don't know what those events are, and anyway it is written so after those events, and in such a style this makes it questionable.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;We know finally something, when Herodotus talked about Egypt he is telling us something important about what the Egyptians was knowing of their history in 450 BC: They was parroting their not well read books! The Khufhu (Cheops) they are talking about is the one we could read the story in their books.&lt;BR&gt; &#xD;&#xA;In case of the Matters written when writings was more common the actual use of historical material (and such this sliding from history to myth) is obvious.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.amazon.com/Epics-Sumerian-Kings-Writings-Ancient/dp/1589830830&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.amazon.com/King-Hammurabi-Babylon-Marc-Mieroop/dp/1405126604&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/W9YbY.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Egypt-Anatomy-Civilization-Second/dp/0415235502&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.amazon.com/Song-Roland-Penguin-Classics/dp/0140445323&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.amazon.com/Charlemagne-Formation-European-Rosamond-McKitterick/dp/0521716454" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8638" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2108" RevisionGUID="79f4468c-f119-4608-a3a7-706248a66562" CreationDate="2016-11-26T03:01:35.073" UserId="3191" Text="I would argue that despite Achilles identity as a demi-god, his true Achilles heel lay not in the exposed area of his foot that meant the coward Paris could poison him with but rather, the deep-seated, love he had for his page and friend, Patroclus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Indeed, whilst he was nigh on invincible to PHYSICAL attack, the attack on his emotional and mental welfare, the loss of his friend; drove him into such a stage of frenzied abandon that one cannot help but wonder if the parallel of dichotomy would accentuate rather than diminish his latent humanity imo. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8640" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2109" RevisionGUID="a01e1684-467e-4b02-b5c9-6c56ce8f8469" CreationDate="2016-11-26T17:00:50.597" UserId="3168" Text="Are there any known children of Hades (god or mortal)?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If there are any mortal children of Hades, would they have abilities related to spirits and souls?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8641" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2109" RevisionGUID="a01e1684-467e-4b02-b5c9-6c56ce8f8469" CreationDate="2016-11-26T17:00:50.597" UserId="3168" Text="Children of Hades" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8642" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2109" RevisionGUID="a01e1684-467e-4b02-b5c9-6c56ce8f8469" CreationDate="2016-11-26T17:00:50.597" UserId="3168" Text="|greek|hades|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8647" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2020" RevisionGUID="d02e9c0f-522b-4322-b970-731979fa9f0b" CreationDate="2016-11-26T19:02:10.780" UserId="57" Comment="What's up with using `&lt;BR&gt;` everywhere? Please take a look at our formatting help: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/help/formatting" Text="High chance is your are referring to something as the Hittite goddess Sauska  (šauška it should be pronounced Chauchka as the š are showing). You can find her under the name Anzili as well. First Sauska is a kind of counterpart of a love/fertility/war goddess that are the Sumerian Inanna, the Babylonian Ishtar, the Egyptian Isis, the Greek Athena. She is both incredibly gorgeous and she kicks ass.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She appears in one story the song of Hedammu which is part of the great cycle of Kumarbi. Kumarbi is the equivalent of Sumerian Enlil, Greek Chronos. After fighting his father Anu (the Sumerian An, Greek Ouranous) the new God generation rebel against him, especially Teshub/Tessub/Tešub (Zeus/Thor... see him with his thunderbolts and axe here!!)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Teshub is the son he got by biting Anu's sex and spitting him. (Compare with Chronos castrating Ouranos and eating his children until Zeus is not eaten before finally spitting the Olympians...)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kumarbi sent 2 monsters to kick the but of the new Gods:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Hedammu which will be overthrown by Sauska&#xD;&#xA; - Ullikummi, the Greek Typhoeus, because noticing how Sauska has enticed Hedammu he sent a monster that Sauska cannot seduce. The main difference here being that Ullikumi is sent directly by Kumarbi/Chronos and not Gaia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The song of Hedammu goes like that. Kumarbi is displeased by Teshub and tries to overthrow him. Teshub plays a minor role here. It is Sauska (you can find her as Anzili in the story... As my hittite is badly bad I rely on translation, some her put Anzili, other Sauska, I don't know why) who sees Hedammu and the potential danger. I will give some translations, with explanations. Beware those are Hittite translations and they are incredibly fragmentary. Translation I am giving are from Hoffner's book [Hittite myths][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Great Sea God began to reply to Kumarbi: &quot;Our matter is settled,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kumarbi, Father of the Gods. Come to my house in 7 days, and I will&#xD;&#xA;&gt; give you Sertapsuruhi, my daughter&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After they mate, Sertapsuruhi and Kumarbi has a son (probably that part is missing, but we can safely guess) Hedammu with is a voracious dragon/snake. After some discussions between Teshub and Sauska here is what happens (beware the erotic text):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sasuska went to the bath house. The queen of Nineveh went there to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wash herself. She washed herself... She anointed herself with fine&#xD;&#xA;&gt; perfumed oil. She adorned herself. And (...) love ran after her like&#xD;&#xA;&gt; puppies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I invite you to compare this text with most Sumerian text with Inanna, especially her love component when she &quot;plays the brat&quot; while taking all the care in the world to anoint herself. Nineveh was the Assyrian capital, land of king Ashurbanipal. Now:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sauska began to say to Kulitta: Take an arkammi instrument, take a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; galgalturi instrument. At sea on the right, play the arkammi, on the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; left play the galgalturi... Perhaps Hedammu will hear our message.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Compare that with Japanese's Amateratsu seduction with she is hiding in a cave. Kulitta is the Hittite goddess of music, generally associated with Ishtar, she often plays to entice Tammuz (The sumerian Dumuzid).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now we have this part (very fragmentary):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hedammu raised his head from the watery deep. He spied Sauska. Sauska&#xD;&#xA;&gt; held her naked members before Hedammu. Hedammu began to speak the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; words to Sauska: &quot;What deity are you? (that you are not afraid of me)&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After that a pretty long extremely fragmentary part appears where Sauska keeps taunting Hedammu (in the sexual sense, keeping somehow stripping herself, even if it is quite unclear) while Hedammu is always amazed she does not flee in terror. Finally they have sex which seems to render the poor Hedammu totally none valiant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sauska, Queen of Nineveh, (...) came down to Hedammu and, Sauska,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; walked before him. (...) The valiant Hedammu came down from his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; throne, from the sea. He came onto the dry land.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I try to keep the translation as fluid as possible (go to the original to see what I did) and keep the most sexual part out. But you see here the Goddess of love/war at work. In the subsequent story where  Teshub will fight Ullikummi, Kumarbi learnt his lesson and take care Ullikumi cannot be seduced by Sauska. We see Sauska coming back trying the same method but miserably failing. But this is vainly because Teshub will finally overcome him (I don't give the detail).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice that Sauska/Inanna/Ishtar/Isis/Athena still exists in modern world as Lara Croft or Wonder Woman or such heroines. Woman mixing beauty and fighting ability. Notice also most of those modern females are never representing adorning themselves with great care to win battle with their sexual nature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that on a historical plan the story of Anu taking down Alul, before being taken down by Kumarbi which will be beaten by Teshub is reminiscent of the Mesopotamian history when Sumerian was replaced by Babylonian which are replaced by Assyrian, which are replaced by Neo Babylonian, before vanishing in the persian empire, with the specific God An, Enlil, Marduk, Teshub becoming the main god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Modern Wiccan still use Sauska, for what I know. And modern Indian Chhathi Maya is very obvious port from Inanna/Ishtar/Sauska. There was an old TV show with Ishtar as a main character. And Athena is popular enough nowaday, for example as Percy Jackson's love affair mother Annabeth Chase or the main Goddess in Saint Seiya.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not sure that was not exactly the story you described but that answer plainly to you. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/IfEI0.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.amazon.com/Hittite-Myths-Second-Harry-Hoffner/dp/0788504886" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8649" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2043" RevisionGUID="1c0a6ed4-1306-46ac-a3f8-57d457435181" CreationDate="2016-11-26T19:05:24.150" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 13 characters in body; edited tags" Text="The Celtic Cernunnos, the Greek Dionysus, the Slavic Veles and Vedic Shiva have snake and bull among their symbols.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why do these two symbols tend to come together?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It looks to me as though these deities also share some other similarities. They tend to be somehow associated with the Moon, the underworld, fertility, and knowledge (magic).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although, if we take other characteristic into account, we would probably replace Dionysus with Hermes. Hermes is not associated with the bull but he is associated with snakes, knowledge, and the underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To make my point stronger, I would like to add that all four mentioned deities (Cernunnos, Dionysus, Veles and Shiva) are associated with **fertility**. Cernunnos and Shiva are both associated with **deer or stag**. Veles and Shiva are both gods of **cattle**." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8650" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2043" RevisionGUID="1c0a6ed4-1306-46ac-a3f8-57d457435181" CreationDate="2016-11-26T19:05:24.150" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 13 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|comparative|symbolism|animals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8651" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2040" RevisionGUID="97630f1c-e8e6-4ed4-adc1-d3c685235644" CreationDate="2016-11-26T19:07:35.147" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 39 characters in body" Text="Hopefully this is the right place.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First you should not say how a melusine could do this or that. Melusine (Mélusine, there is a accent on the 'e', pronounce that like may) is a name in the same range as Medusa, Zeus, or Barrack Obama. So simply Melusine.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She appears in lots of story, But the &quot;Roman de Mélusine&quot; by Jean d'Arras is the best representation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roman de Mélusine, jean d'Arras&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mélusine is known from this French middle medieval book. Here is a very short summary, with original quote and personal English translation. King Elinas of Albany (ie. Scotland, not modern Albany) meet an incredibly beautiful woman Présine and marry her at the condition he never comes to see her after child birth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Old French text:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dont, dist la dame, qui bien savoit qu'il estoit espris de s'amour:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Se vous me voulez prendre a femme et jurer que, se nous avons enfans&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ensemble, que vous ne mettrez ja peine de moy veoir en ma gesine, ne&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ne ferez par voye quelconques tant que vous me voiez, je suiz celle&#xD;&#xA;&gt; qui obeiray a vous comme loyal moillier doit obeir a son espoux. Et le&#xD;&#xA;&gt; roy lui jura ainsi.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Modern English:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So, says the woman, who was knowing pretty well that [Elinas] was in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; love: If you want to take me as a wife and sear that, if we have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; children, that you will not come to see me while I am giving birth, I&#xD;&#xA;&gt; will be the one who will obey to you like a loyal wife should obey her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; spouse. And the king sweared.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note also that this 'de moy veoir en ma gesine&quot; could also safely been translated by &quot;When I have my period&quot; which would make sense with the child bathing scene (could I insist). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately the King has already a son Mataquas which is obviously jealous. Présine got pregnant from THREE girls at the same time. And following Mataquas advice the king go to see his wife.&#xD;&#xA;Original French:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Il s'en vint devers le roy son pere, et lui dit: Ma dame la royne&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Presine, vostre femme, vous a apporté les trois plus belles filles qui&#xD;&#xA;&gt; oncques feussent veues. Sire, venez les veoir.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;English:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Mataquas] comes to the King his father, and says: My lady the Queen&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Présine, your wife, bring to you the three most beautiful girls never&#xD;&#xA;&gt; seen. Sire comes to see them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of this 3 girls is Mélusine. So you have to note that she is the daughter of a man (a King), and a obvious fae Présine which is pretty much female in appearance. The two other girls are Mélior and Palestine.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When they grow older the 3 girls decide to take revenge on their father, locking him in the Northumberland mountain. Présine, curses them for that. And here e have the passage answering your question:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Old French:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mais desormais je te donne le don que tu seras tous les samedis&#xD;&#xA;&gt; serpente du nombril en aval. Mais, se tu treuves homme qui te veuille&#xD;&#xA;&gt; prendre a espouse, que il te convenance que jamais le samedy ne te&#xD;&#xA;&gt; verra, non qu'il te descuevre, ne ne le die a personne, tu vivras&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cours naturel comme femme naturelle, et mourras naturelment.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;English:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But for now, I give you the gift that every saturday you will be a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; snake from the navel to bottom. But if you find a man who which to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; take you as a wife, that he promises you that he will never see you on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; saturday, neither he finds you, nor he says to anyone, you will live&#xD;&#xA;&gt; normally as a normal wife, and die normally.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So Mélusine state is the result of the curse of her own mother Présine, changing her on saturday to have sought revenge on her father. Her sisters are also punished.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She will spouse king Remondin (or raimondin, modern Raymondin), who will obviously comes to spy her (after an advice of his very own brother mentioning she could betray him) on a saturday and tells what he saw, obliging Mélusine to flee.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is Remondin spying Mélusine while she is bathing:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And Mélusine flying away as a monster after her betrayal (the text is: How Mélusine fly from Remondin in the shape of a snake of the castle of Lusignan by a window) - I picked this one cause it is totally ugly (drawn by a 2 years old monk):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/cXQGB.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Rr2Nm.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8652" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2033" RevisionGUID="b0ee8299-246c-49b8-85e6-bc105c66ada5" CreationDate="2016-11-26T19:09:18.950" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 88 characters in body" Text="The Dakini connection&#xD;&#xA;---------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is an extract of [Chinese Magical Medicine](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/668301.Chinese_Magical_Medicine) by Michel Strickmann implying the direct connection between the Inari and the Dakini (p. 272).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The  “[Dakini](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakini)”  or  “Dagini”  for  which  this  complex  of  modern &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Japanese  possession-rites is named is, of course, the dakini of older&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tantric sources, identified since at least the eighth century with the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fox-phantom. As we have noted, the Chinese linking of the voracious&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and ill-omened dakini-demonesses with the fox was based on their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Indian associations with the jackal. In medi­eval Japan, it became&#xD;&#xA;&gt; customary to identify figures from the complex Indian pantheon of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tantric Buddhism with native deities (rather like the interpret at&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ioromana in the world of late antiquity). Thus it was natural for this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; interpretatio nipponica to see in the supernatural fox-dakini the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; original of Japan’s own [Inari](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inari_%C5%8Ckami), a god of rice cultivation often&#xD;&#xA;&gt; depicted in vulpine form.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now why the Dakini. The Dakini is a Tantric Buddhist monster. It appears in the Mahavairocana Tantra and he (the Dakini) is overwhelmed by Mahavairocana Buddha and (s)he rides a jackal. The text is well known in Japan (as Mahavairocana sutra).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that the Dakini is present in numerous Indian stories with lots of variants... LOTS of (including sex, appeance, attributes, malvolence). It is also known in Tibetan version. Jackal being unknown in China and Japan, they translated by another small canine fox.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note also that the Inari appears to be from an old local Japanese tradition, it later been related to fox (around the 12th century) before joining more or then with the Dakini. The Inari also has the particularity to not be well defined, especially if (s)he is male or female. The blur with mysterious Dakini is quite obvious (Hence why be wary of my claim about one version specifically of the Dakini, or to compare too much the Inari and Dakini, or even Dakini and Dakini-Ten).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the local deity Inari is identified by the Buddhist Indian Dakini to some extend. Here is the Japanese Dakini-ten riding her legendary fox (I pick this one because it is a gorgeous one, notice the small rice sheaf in her hand) (Note also it exists a [male version][1] of Dakini-ten, carrying a sword/weapon instead of a sheaf of rice):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Kitsune&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now regarding the [Kitsune](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsune)/[Huli jing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huli_jing)([princess Daji](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daji)). Here is from the [Cult of the Fox](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4637840-the-cult-of-the-fox) by Xiaofei Kang (p234, note 13):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The fox motif in stories of Reynard and the fables of Aesop have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; appeared frequently in European paintings and architecture since the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 13th[...](such) tales are found in all countries of Europe, including&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Russia and the Near and Middle East. The motif of the fox wife [ie&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Daji/Kitsune, note by me] wa salso found in Chinese and Japanese&#xD;&#xA;&gt; folklore and accross the Berling Strait among the Eskimos in North&#xD;&#xA;&gt; America.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tales of Reynard is a Medieval French book telling the adventures of Reynard. In modern French, fox is *renard*, and the novel is *Roman de Renard*, where the main character, Renard was a *goupil* (ancient French word for fox). The novel was so popular that foxes are now called *renard* and no more *goupil*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is now a kitsune from a japanese temple:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice the kitsune DOES not have nine tails, only one tail on this statue. Notice also the sheaf of rice in his snout! In japan you will find kitsune garding Inari's temple. So don't assume the Chinese Huli jing and the japanese kitsune are strictly speaking the same creature. The kitsune is more than probably a port of the former, but it evolves quite differently.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, there is no connection implied between India and Daji/Kitsune. They are from local Chinese tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tamamo-No-Mae&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is now an example of a &quot;true&quot; Kitsune story (I mean by true, from japanese culture, not that you will find a kitsune as your girl next door). I push you first [there][4], where you will find a resume of the original text as well as very beautiful original drawings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See here some japanese warriors hunting an innocent two-tailed fox (The site I linked give you the Otogizoshi, browse it for the text and marvelous illustrations):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][5]][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story goes like that (short summary): Tamama-no-mae is the favourite concubine of Emperor Toba-no-in, reputed for her extreme beauty, marvelous scent as well as incredible cleverness. But unfortunately she is in fact a terrible kitsune.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later tradition, not the Otogizochi, will link her to Chinese princess Daji, possessed by a fox spirit, due to the similitude in story. Now Daji story predating Tamamo story there is still a chance this is a port.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And here is the thing, all of that is buddhist in nature. And buddhism comes from India, so most of the time, you find those creatures (princess Daji, or Tamamo) mentioned as &quot;coming form India&quot; (Note that the Otogizoshi does not, she is Japanese, period). But one as to not see that as &quot;coming from true India&quot; but much more a way for Chinese and Japanese to mention something exotic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tamamo is still an incredibly popular character, you find her haunting dozen of modern stories, novels, mangas and video games:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][6]][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is a VERY nice modern representation. I push you to notice the 9 tails. Modern japanese does not know their own folklore ;D&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-jT5mXj2kgzA/UxOHvsw1ntI/AAAAAAAAD40/ezuIQVqDeSs/s1600/dakiniten2.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/fgdX7.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/DwLtn.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://edb.kulib.kyoto-u.ac.jp/exhibit-e/otogi/tamamo/tamamo.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ZVS6Q.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/hvFTa.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8657" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2097" RevisionGUID="d71fa0e8-0ed9-4b34-8852-ec5cf55549b9" CreationDate="2016-11-26T19:14:57.433" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|arthurian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8658" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2073" RevisionGUID="02bda25c-c341-4d0b-b3f2-4424e16bde0f" CreationDate="2016-11-26T19:16:20.773" UserId="57" Comment="added 259 characters in body" Text="&gt; Some scholars hypothesize that both Frigg and Freyja may have their origin in a Common Germanic goddess. There is no firm evidence for this, but scholars have found some similarities both in their mythological features and the possible etymologies of their names, as well as place-names associated with them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ... &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The day of the week Friday in Old Norse is called both Freyjudagr and Frjádagr (for Freyja and Frigg respectively), in Faröese Fríggjadagur, and in Old High German was Frîatac, Frîgetac, and now Freitag, for Frigg. In Old English Frigedæg referred to Frigg as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The name of the early English goddess is attested only in the name of the weekday, although frīg (strong feminine) as a common noun meaning &quot;love&quot; (in the singular) or &quot;affections, embraces&quot; (in the plural) is attested in poetry.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; Source: Frigg and Freyja origin hypothesis. (2016, October 1). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 22:25, October 1, 2016, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Frigg_and_Freyja_origin_hypothesis&amp;oldid=742135256&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8660" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2069" RevisionGUID="f9d980fa-4d76-49be-919e-07e7299eb914" CreationDate="2016-11-26T19:19:49.810" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 78 characters in body" Text="Mercury and Hermes are basically the same. The Roman Mercury is simply the Greek Hermes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now Toth. Toth is a pure Egyptian God. In 300 BC Egypt was conquered by Alexander the Great and one of his general, Ptolemy became the new Pharaoh forming the Ptolemy/Lagid dynasty (the last Pharaohs). At this time Greeks would collect Egyptian Gods, give them more or less Greek names (that the name we still use today Isis/Osiris/Anubis/Toth those are the Greek names). They would also identify the Egyptian Gods and put them together with Greek Gods. Note that Herodotus did basically that some 200 years before. Toth (Egyptian dhwty, Egyptian was a semitic language and as such did not wrote the vowels, we are so pretty uncertain how Egyptian god's name was pronounced) has so been paralleled with Hermes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, in Early Antiquity you have 3 great civilizations all centered around rivers: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Egyptian around the Nile&#xD;&#xA; - Mesopotamian around the Euphrates&#xD;&#xA; - Indian around the Indus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no doubt those civilizations were in contact and they mixed more or then their beliefs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Greek are originally probably from a northern part of Europe. They so inherited that with obvious contact with Mesopotamia (Phoenician exactly).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Considering they later identify Toth with Hermes, in what extend Hermes could have originated in Toth...probably not the case. Herodotus mentioned numerous time he was believing Greek Gods was coming from Egyptian one (proving that a very smart guy in 500BC was seeing some similitudes), and he was certainly very wrong.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odin is really coming from a WAY later tradition. On the same extend we have Roman writers mentioning celtic/norse believes but giving them Roman names (Jupiter/Odin, Herakles/Thor, etc.). Considering the attributes of Odin, he can be attached to Jupiter, Hades or Hermes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can find here and there strange similitudes showing some concordances. Thor is a thundergod with the magical hammer Mjolnir. The Indian Indra is a thundergod with a magical tunderbolt Vajra. The Greek Zeus is a thundergod with thunderbolt. Their oldest known common ancestor is the Hurrian Teshub wielding the magical axe and the magical thunderbolt. All of them are confronted to snakish/dragonish monsters (Jormungandr, Vritra, Typhoeus, Ullikumi). But who was the first? And beside that, myths are still mostly different in their executions, way of writing and such.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That is why that is NOT an easy question. No doubt that Hermes is Mercury. For Toth and Odin... Far from that easy. You just have to remind that the antique world was different than ours. Reading was no so common, and even when you could, languages was totally different. Travel opportunities was far from that common. It is quite hard to judge Antique knowledge from the very partial things we know (Hell what we know of the 5th Dynasty of Egyptian Pharaohs...), with our common huge Linga Franca, the Internet and our vast world library.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Let's mention ONE last thing: Most little bit cultivated people will feel somehow uncomfortable trying to know who is the first. First because it is damn hard question. Second, there is a little &quot;sulferic&quot; smell there. There is some people out there loving to draw quick and huge conclusions of dramatic importances on things they have no clue what they are talking about. And they can be sweet talkers. And soon you are confronted to race/superiority/monomyth/Atlantid/Extraterrestrials.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So great question, dense question. But very hard to give a clear definitive answer. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8662" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2111" RevisionGUID="5c8e1f9b-6fdb-464a-8575-915ff29bc857" CreationDate="2016-11-26T20:31:40.097" UserId="398" Text="This is only a partial and working answer until I can look into Cerunnos, Veles, and Shiva.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My first inclination is that this is a case of the [Texas sharpshooter fallacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy). These four gods have associations with those two animals, and so you posit they must be a related. However, there's no telling when these gods developed these characteristics and whether they're primordial or just highlighting two accidental convergences.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Let's take a look at the Greek side, since I know that best.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First of all, snakes have long been a symbol of immortality. Think of the snake in the Garden of Eden or the Gilgamesh epic who snatch away immortality from Adam and Eve or Gilgamesh, respectively.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Iron Age, Dionysus developed a cult of immortality around him, one of the several savior cults around the Mediterranean. The most solid evidence comes the 400s, but it likely developed earlier. Multiple tablets attest to Dionysus' power to rescue souls from the Underworld. This could have given Dionysus his serpentine associations. ([Cole, 338ff.](https://books.google.com/books?id=yOQtHNJJU9UC&amp;pg=PA338#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as the bull goes, this is likely Mycenaean in origin and probably predates any the snake associations. Cattle are sacred to Dionyus at Cynathea in Arcadia, which has an unusual feast to him there (from [Theoi](http://www.theoi.com/Cult/DionysosCult.html)):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Pausanias, Description of Greece 8. 19. 2) &quot;The most notable things here [at Kynathea, Arkadia] include a sanctuary of Dionysos, to whom they hold a feast in the winter, at which men smeared with grease take up from a herd of cattle a bull, whichever one the god suggest to them, and carry it to the sanctuary. This is the manner of their sacrifice.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He is also called &quot;bull-faced&quot; in the Orphic hymns, paralleling the epithets for Hera (cow-faced) and Athena (owl-faced, or possibly gray-eyed).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, I wouldn't write off Hermes right away. The earliest sources for Hermes after the *Odyssey* definitely tie him to cattle. In his Homeric Hymn, Hermes steals the cattle of Apollo and then lies about it. He was so clever at it, though, Zeus granted him a position on Olympus. The snake association is actually more tenuous, as the entwined serpents around his staff is rather late iconography, and perhaps comes from Hippocratic symbolism, which in turn developed from the Asclepius cult. (See [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_of_Asclepius) for a good rundown of the evidence.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While I haven't looked at the earlier gods, I do think this analysis should lead you to hesitate in positing whether the snake and the bull really do belong together." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8664" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2112" RevisionGUID="c282cc89-e70f-4b08-9778-078cf71d409c" CreationDate="2016-11-26T20:41:17.100" UserId="398" Text="Yes, and for future questions of this type, [Theoi](http://www.theoi.com/) is a great resource.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Depending on the source, he had three children plus the Erinyes. The latter are problematic, as Aeschylus' *Oresteia* presume their primordial, pre-Olympian existence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Still, the others are given as [Zagreus](http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/Zagreus.html) in a fragment in a tragedy of Aeschylus', [Melinoe](http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Melinoe.html) by Persephone in an Orphic hymn, and [Makaria](http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Makaria.html) in a Suidas entry.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zagreus was also said to be the son of Zeus and Persephone (as related in an Orphic hymn and then later authors). This is probably secondary, though, and doesn't really make gibe with the very early Hymn to Demeter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Melinoe was actually the child of Zeus, but Zeus had taken on the form of Hades, so take that as you will.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nothing contests Makaria's parentage, but the Suidas is very late (10th century AD, so well into the Middle Ages already) and often full of inaccuracies, so we have no idea how early or late or even correct the attribution is." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8668" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2097" RevisionGUID="ee39caf5-d346-4b2f-bc06-f89d740a9844" CreationDate="2016-11-27T11:28:10.290" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags; edited title" Text="Prose Tristan: versions vs parts" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8669" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2097" RevisionGUID="ee39caf5-d346-4b2f-bc06-f89d740a9844" CreationDate="2016-11-27T11:28:10.290" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags; edited title" Text="|arthurian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8672" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1419" RevisionGUID="a2c7161f-89cd-417a-b30a-ec4ceca2bb53" CreationDate="2016-11-27T18:23:00.410" UserId="967" Comment="added 148 characters in body" Text="For questions concerning the Norse trickster god, son of Fárbauti and Laufey, the father of Hel, the World Serpent Jörmungandr, and the Wolf Fenrir." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8673" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1419" RevisionGUID="a2c7161f-89cd-417a-b30a-ec4ceca2bb53" CreationDate="2016-11-27T18:23:00.410" Comment="Proposed by 967 approved by 111, 292 edit id of 295" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8674" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2094" RevisionGUID="e118bb13-aaf1-4f03-ab57-329deddb9a93" CreationDate="2016-11-27T18:23:05.060" UserId="967" Comment="added 67 characters in body" Text="Questions asking for a specific translation on a mythological book." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8675" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2094" RevisionGUID="e118bb13-aaf1-4f03-ab57-329deddb9a93" CreationDate="2016-11-27T18:23:05.060" Comment="Proposed by 967 approved by 62, 292 edit id of 383" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8683" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2113" RevisionGUID="0319090c-ca74-4559-9da6-92cfe8662081" CreationDate="2016-11-29T10:10:35.333" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="&gt;Loki ate some of the heart, the thought-stone of a woman,roasted on a linden-woodfire, he found it half-cooked;Lopt was impregnated by a wicked woman,from whom every ogress on earth is descended.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;source:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Loki eat the heart,&#xD;&#xA;on fire from linden made,&#xD;&#xA;found a half-burnt&#xD;&#xA;mindstone-wife;&#xD;&#xA;was Lopt sired&#xD;&#xA;with that wicked woman;&#xD;&#xA;thence in the world&#xD;&#xA;are all wicked one's come.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;source:https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda/Hyndlulj%C3%B3%C3%B0&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;43. A heart ate Loki,-- | in the embers it lay,&#xD;&#xA;And half-cooked found he | the woman's heart;--&#xD;&#xA;With child from the woman | Lopt soon was,&#xD;&#xA;And thence among men | came the monsters all.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;source:http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe15.htm&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My questions are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-Why did Loki eat that heart?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-Who or what was that woman? Was she a notable character in Norse mythology? If not,what race did she belong to?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-Why was her heart burnt?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-What/who exactly did Loki give birth to?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-How did he carry and give birth to it/him/her? Did he turn into a female to carrry and give birth to it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8684" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2113" RevisionGUID="0319090c-ca74-4559-9da6-92cfe8662081" CreationDate="2016-11-29T10:10:35.333" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Did Loki give birth to a monster?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8685" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2113" RevisionGUID="0319090c-ca74-4559-9da6-92cfe8662081" CreationDate="2016-11-29T10:10:35.333" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="|norse|loki|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8686" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2114" RevisionGUID="b17cec5f-3cc0-4a7e-9d04-d8ecfd7179ca" CreationDate="2016-12-01T02:24:45.850" UserId="292" Text="The verses you're quoting come from an extremely cryptic poem called the [*Shorter Voluspa*][1], which is inserted into the longer poem *Hyndluljod*, and has little to do with it. Like the *Volupsa* itself, you really need to know the stories already to get the references, as they don't give any details. No other source says anything about this, so that one reference is all we have. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Two things stand out for me, however. First, that Loki was the father/mother of all evil women, i.e. witches and giantesses, whom we might expect to be unnatural. Second, that he is half-giant, and we know from the [story of Ymir][2] that they can reproduce in odd ways. (And that getting pregnant by [swallowing something][3] is a common trope in myths and folklore.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lusp%C3%A1_hin_skamma&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/giants/ymir/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89ta%C3%ADn" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8688" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2115" RevisionGUID="c747c060-dce7-4fe2-b87b-abee888d1065" CreationDate="2016-12-01T07:28:16.653" UserId="666" Text="Since solsdottir has answered the part about the parentage of the monsters, I'll try to answer the part of why Loki would eat the heart:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The motif of eating the cooked heart of a monster also appears in the story of [Sigurd][1], who eats the heart of the dragon Fafnir and gains knowledge. That story suggests that his fosterfather Regin expected at least something like this would happen (he wants the heart for himself, but Sigurd finds out Regin is plotting to kill him, and so attacks him first). Loki's motivation could have been a thirst for knowledge.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigurd" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8691" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2112" RevisionGUID="2e0c5b2c-e177-461f-9e74-bbc36ea1d0c9" CreationDate="2016-12-01T15:39:43.523" UserId="398" Comment="added 101 characters in body" Text="Yes, and for future questions of this type, [Theoi](http://www.theoi.com/) is a great resource.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Depending on the source, he had three children plus the Erinyes. The latter are problematic, as Aeschylus' *Oresteia* presume their primordial, pre-Olympian existence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Still, the others are given as [Zagreus](http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/Zagreus.html) in a fragment in a tragedy of Aeschylus', [Melinoe](http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Melinoe.html) by Persephone in an Orphic hymn, and [Makaria](http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Makaria.html) in a Suidas entry.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zagreus was also said to be the son of Zeus and Persephone (as related in an Orphic hymn and then later authors). This is probably secondary, though, and doesn't really gibe with the very early *Hymn to Demeter*, where Persephone is a young maiden before she is taken away by Hades—when would Zeus have had a chance?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Melinoe was actually the child of Zeus, but Zeus had taken on the form of Hades, so take that as you will.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nothing contests Makaria's parentage, but the Suidas is very late (10th century AD, so well into the Middle Ages already) and often full of inaccuracies, so we have no idea how early or late or even correct the attribution is." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8693" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2109" RevisionGUID="39ab03f8-1609-43d0-87c1-c06f59fe7e11" CreationDate="2016-12-01T23:00:05.960" UserId="967" Comment="edited title" Text="Are there any children of Hades?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8694" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2116" RevisionGUID="c3ca38ea-13bf-49fd-bb63-607cd2bee1e1" CreationDate="2016-12-01T23:47:01.223" UserId="967" Text="&gt;The Romans worshipped the same goddess, or rather the same ideas embodied in her, under the name of Vesta, which is in reality identical with Hestia; but as the Roman worship of Vesta differed in several points from that of Hestia in Greece.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[theoi encyclopedia][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#Birth&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;None. Both state that each is from Cronos/Saturn&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 1. 4 - 7 (trans. Aldrich) (Greek mythographer C2nd A.D.) :*&lt;br&gt;&quot;&quot;**He [Kronos (Cronus)]** then married his sister **Rhea**. Because both Ge (Gaea, Earth) and Ouranos (Uranus, Heaven) had given him prophetic warning that his rule would be overthrown by a son of his own, he took to swallowing his children at birth. He swallowed his first-born daughter **Hestia**[.]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Pseudo-Hyginus, Preface (trans. Grant) (Roman mythographer C2nd A.D.) :*&lt;br&gt;&quot;To **Kronos (Cronus) and Rhea,** we are told, were born Hestia, Demeter, and Hera, and Zeus, Poseidon, and Haides.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#Stories&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of [Priapus][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;PRIAPOS (Priapus) was the god of vegetable gardens. He was also a protector of beehives, flocks and vineyards.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no greek source of Priapus trying to rape her&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Ovid, Fasti 6. 319 ff (trans.Boyle) (Roman poetry C1st B.C. to C1st A.D.) :*&lt;br&gt;&quot;Should I omit or recount your shame, red Priapus? It is a very playful, tiny tale. Coroneted Cybele [Rhea], with her crow of turrets, invites the eternal gods to her feast...  Vesta [Hestia] lies down and takes a quiet, carefree nap, just as she was, her head pillowed by turf. But the red saviour of gardens [Priapos] prowls for Nymphai and goddesses, and wanders back and forth. He spots Vesta. It's unclear if he thought she was a Nympha or knew it was Vesta. He claims ignorance. He conceives a vile hope and tires to steal upon her, walking on tiptoe, as his heart flutters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#Attributes as a goddess&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Cicero, De Natura Deorum 2. 27 (trans. Rackham) (Roman rhetorician C1st B.C.) :*&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;The goddess whom they call Hestia. Her power extends over **altars** and **hearths**, and therefore all prayers and all sacrifices end with this goddess, because she is the **guardian of the innermost things.**&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Orphic Hymn 84 to Hestia (trans. Taylor) (Greek hymns C3rd B.C. to 2nd A.D.) :*&quot;Hestia . . . who dwellest amidst **great fire's eternal flame**; in sacred rites these ministers are thine, mystics much blessed, holy and divine. In thee the Gods have fixed their dwelling place, strong, stable basis of the mortal race.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Pausanias, Description of Greece 2. 35. 1 :&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;[At Hermione in Argolis :] Passing into the sanctuary of Hestia, we see no image, but only an altar, and they sacrifice to Hestia upon it.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They agree that Hestia is in charge of the hearth, but it seems that Romans believed that altars were in Vesta's territory, while the icon of Hestia was an altar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Overall,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* The origin is the same&#xD;&#xA;* There are stories of Vesta that don't happen to Hestia&#xD;&#xA;* The Romans saw Vesta as a goddess of altars and hearths, while the Greeks saw Hestia as a goddess of hearths, and her icon was a hearth.&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Ouranios/Hestia.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/Priapos.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8696" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2117" RevisionGUID="0372991c-f945-4ecf-bedb-f28f12e92639" CreationDate="2016-12-02T06:04:45.127" UserId="467" Text="What examples to you know of from Greco-Roman myths in which the wind **as such** impregnates a woman (could be mortal or a goddess)? I'm aware of examples where the wind **personalized** as a god (e.g., Boreas, Zephyrus) impregnates a woman, which is thought of as sex, but here I'm interested in situations where it is just the wind as such and conception is not portrayed as occurring through copulation. There are examples of female animals (mares, hens, etc.) being impregnated by a non-personalized wind, but I'm having trouble coming up with examples of women from myths not outside the Greco-Roman orbit (there are examples from China, for instance)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8697" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2117" RevisionGUID="0372991c-f945-4ecf-bedb-f28f12e92639" CreationDate="2016-12-02T06:04:45.127" UserId="467" Text="Myths of the Wind Impregnating Women" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8698" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2117" RevisionGUID="0372991c-f945-4ecf-bedb-f28f12e92639" CreationDate="2016-12-02T06:04:45.127" UserId="467" Text="|wind|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8699" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2117" RevisionGUID="8385d674-c105-470a-b10d-4574128c9999" CreationDate="2016-12-02T12:42:10.487" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|wind|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8702" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2118" RevisionGUID="360d2554-e5ba-4ddb-98bb-56a8c6630902" CreationDate="2016-12-02T19:11:19.170" UserId="2892" Text="It's a particularly interesting question because of the relationship with the Ancient Greek word for [life, soul, spirit](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%88%CF%85%CF%87%CE%AE) and the the verb [to breathe or blow](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%88%CF%8D%CF%87%CF%89#Ancient_Greek).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- In this context, one could view the Virgin Mary as a leading example.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_____________________________________________________&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ψυχή: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=yuxh%2F&amp;la=greek&amp;can=yuxh%2F0&amp;prior=tersh/menai#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ψύχω: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=yu%2Fxw&amp;la=greek&amp;can=yu%2Fxw0&amp;prior=u(panemo/w#Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=yu/xw-contents" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8706" PostHistoryTypeId="12" PostId="2118" RevisionGUID="6e80f0cb-05f5-4b71-8a31-e4efbb0548ec" CreationDate="2016-12-03T20:42:12.273" UserId="2892" Comment="via Vote" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:2892,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;DukeZhou&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="8710" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2119" RevisionGUID="24ece515-97aa-4c1f-8da5-7e2cfcbd170a" CreationDate="2016-12-04T01:07:48.840" UserId="2892" Text="I think the &quot;in-world&quot; world answer would definitely be based on physics, specifically optics and reflectivity.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Our modern conception is quite different than of the ancient. The modern [silvered-glass mirror](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvering) dates only to about the mid 19th century CE.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This modern conception in regard to Perseus is almost certainly influenced by the effects master [Ray Harryhausen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Harryhausen)'s famous depiction in the 1981 [Clash of the Titans](https://youtu.be/8X7W-oPhY48).  In the film, the make the mirror look like polished metal, but the degree of reflectivity and detail would only be possible with industrial era techniques.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Mirrors of speculum metal or any precious metal were hard to produce and were only owned by the wealthy.[5] These stone and metal mirrors could be made in very large sizes, but were difficult to polish and get perfectly flat; a process that became more difficult with increased size; so they often produced warped or blurred images. Stone mirrors often had poor reflectivity compared to metals, yet metals scratch or tarnish easily, so they frequently needed polishing. Depending upon the color, both often yielded reflections with poor color rendering.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[History of the Mirror](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror#History)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Note than a mirror on either the inside or outside of a shield would not be flat, so the warping and distortion would be pronounced.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- If Perseus propped the shield against a wall to use the reflection, increased distance between himself and Medusa would profoundly degrade the image.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- If he was holding the shield in his off-hand as he approached to make a back-handed coup-de-gras, unsteadiness of the mirror would further blur the image.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- If the shield had seen previous action, it would be dented and scratched, which would further degrade the image. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- If the event took place at night, which, in the Pseudo-Appolodorus is implied by the slumbering state of Gorgones, fine details would have extremely difficult to make out.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- If the location was a cave or temple, the setting would have been dim, even in broad daylight, further degrading the image. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a technical perspective, in terms of the mechanics of making such a cut, the only detail Perseus would need to be able to make out in the mirror would be the proportional difference between her head and torso, in order to gauge the position of the neck.  If Medusa's hair was writhing serpents, her head would have been that much more easily distinguishable. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that in the Harryhausen, Perseus played by Harry Hamlin needs only to use the shield to gauge the height of her neck—peerless warrior that he is, he is able to hide behind a pillar and deliver the [coup de grâce](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coup_de_gr%C3%A2ce) as she passes without looking. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The use of the polished shield is almost certainly an interpolation. Maybe it took a millenium for someone to think to ask &quot;if looking at her turned you to stone, how did he cut off her head?&quot; lol, and the bard, taking a draught from his bowl his winebowl as he considered his answer,spying a bright bronze shield answered...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The psychological elements noted by Arthur George in his answer might make the idea feel right to a listener.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **To an ancient mind, the assumption would have been of a very blurry image with little detail, not nearly clear enough to [petrify](https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&amp;ion=1&amp;espv=2&amp;ie=UTF-8#q=petrify) the brave witness with horror.**  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8711" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2120" RevisionGUID="32c85899-eb1c-4bd7-8ef4-c01ba67387d4" CreationDate="2016-12-04T20:08:37.410" UserId="3208" Text="In the astronomical ceiling of the tomb of Seti (KV17) one of the columns is denoted by the figure of [Sekhmet][1] wearing the crown of Hathor as below:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Sekhmet][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What does this signify? Although Sekhmet is sometimes represented wearing the sun disk, it is never with the horns and always with the [uraeus][3]. The sun disk between horns is the usual headress of [Hathor][4], not Sekhmet. Why is Sekhmet wearing the crown of Hathor in this particular context?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sekhmet&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/thBTZ.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uraeus&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hathor" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8712" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2120" RevisionGUID="32c85899-eb1c-4bd7-8ef4-c01ba67387d4" CreationDate="2016-12-04T20:08:37.410" UserId="3208" Text="Sekhmet with the crown of Hathor?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8713" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2120" RevisionGUID="32c85899-eb1c-4bd7-8ef4-c01ba67387d4" CreationDate="2016-12-04T20:08:37.410" UserId="3208" Text="|egyptian|astrology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8715" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2121" RevisionGUID="28e4621e-fadf-49fe-8556-2d218bf09bdb" CreationDate="2016-12-05T04:52:19.850" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="According to what I read in the Internet, there are two variants of the creation myth in Hawaiian mythology. According to the first one, the god Kane emerged from Chaos or *Po* and he creates the world with two other gods who emerge from *Po*, Ku and Lono. According to the second one, Kane is a child of the Earth Mother Papa and Sky Father Rangi and he separates them from their embrace so that he and his other siblings can have space to live. Which one of these myths is the original one, or is there another creation myth which is older?&#xD;&#xA; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8716" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2121" RevisionGUID="28e4621e-fadf-49fe-8556-2d218bf09bdb" CreationDate="2016-12-05T04:52:19.850" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="What is the original creation myth of Hawaiian mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8717" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2121" RevisionGUID="28e4621e-fadf-49fe-8556-2d218bf09bdb" CreationDate="2016-12-05T04:52:19.850" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="|creation|hawaiian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8718" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2122" RevisionGUID="fb0ad88d-fa26-477d-a383-29c4b6d5920f" CreationDate="2016-12-05T05:53:49.700" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="According to Wikipedia'&#xD;&#xA;&gt;he is the son of ʻAkalana and his wife Hina-a-ke-ahi (Hina)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and according to Encyclopedia Mythica&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Maui's mother Hina complained that the sun traveled too fast across the sky.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, in the tale of Tuna,the eel god, Hina is the wife of Maui. And in another tale, Hina is the sister of him who lends him her hair to make a net to trap the Sun. How exactly is Hina related to Maui in Hawaiian mythology?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8719" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2122" RevisionGUID="fb0ad88d-fa26-477d-a383-29c4b6d5920f" CreationDate="2016-12-05T05:53:49.700" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="How is Hina related to Maui in Hawaiian mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8720" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2122" RevisionGUID="fb0ad88d-fa26-477d-a383-29c4b6d5920f" CreationDate="2016-12-05T05:53:49.700" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="|hawaiian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8721" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2113" RevisionGUID="4c7ed95b-c164-4e49-a198-bd206773dcb0" CreationDate="2016-12-05T07:53:45.043" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved formatting." Text="&gt;Loki ate some of the heart, the thought-stone of a woman,roasted on a linden-woodfire, he found it half-cooked;Lopt was impregnated by a wicked woman,from whom every ogress on earth is descended.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source: [Loki (Wikipedia)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Loki eat the heart,&#xD;&#xA;on fire from linden made,&#xD;&#xA;found a half-burnt&#xD;&#xA;mindstone-wife;&#xD;&#xA;was Lopt sired&#xD;&#xA;with that wicked woman;&#xD;&#xA;thence in the world&#xD;&#xA;are all wicked one's come.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source: [Poetic Edda/Hyndluljóð (Wikisource)](https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda/Hyndlulj%C3%B3%C3%B0)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;43. A heart ate Loki,-- | in the embers it lay,&#xD;&#xA;And half-cooked found he | the woman's heart;--&#xD;&#xA;With child from the woman | Lopt soon was,&#xD;&#xA;And thence among men | came the monsters all.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source: [HYNDLULJOTH (The Poem of Hyndla)](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe15.htm)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My questions are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-Why did Loki eat that heart?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-Who or what was that woman? Was she a notable character in Norse mythology? If not,what race did she belong to?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-Why was her heart burnt?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-What/who exactly did Loki give birth to?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-How did he carry and give birth to it/him/her? Did he turn into a female to carrry and give birth to it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8722" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2113" RevisionGUID="4c7ed95b-c164-4e49-a198-bd206773dcb0" CreationDate="2016-12-05T07:53:45.043" Comment="Proposed by 1241 approved by 967, 2774 edit id of 386" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8724" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2123" RevisionGUID="ebe33436-4239-450e-943b-d74c84797add" CreationDate="2016-12-05T12:44:12.007" UserDisplayName="user3198" Text="the wiki page says Friday is named after the goddess Frigg.&#xD;&#xA;[other articles][2] say its both or Freyja.&#xD;&#xA;and there are [some][3] that say its the same goddess.&#xD;&#xA;is there a consesus that i don't know about?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.crowl.org/lawrence/time/days.html#Friday&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frigg_and_Freyja_origin_hypothesis" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8725" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2123" RevisionGUID="ebe33436-4239-450e-943b-d74c84797add" CreationDate="2016-12-05T12:44:12.007" UserDisplayName="user3198" Text="Friday: the day of Frigg of Freyja?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8726" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2123" RevisionGUID="ebe33436-4239-450e-943b-d74c84797add" CreationDate="2016-12-05T12:44:12.007" UserDisplayName="user3198" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8727" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2123" RevisionGUID="dc65a7cb-b918-453b-b74e-0cb2214a0fe5" CreationDate="2016-12-05T13:08:19.860" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved grammar" Text="The Wiki page says Friday is named after the goddess Frigg.&#xD;&#xA;[Other articles][2] say its both or Freyja.&#xD;&#xA;and there are [some][3] that say its the same goddess.&#xD;&#xA;Is there a consesus that I don't know about?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.crowl.org/lawrence/time/days.html#Friday&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frigg_and_Freyja_origin_hypothesis" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8728" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2123" RevisionGUID="dc65a7cb-b918-453b-b74e-0cb2214a0fe5" CreationDate="2016-12-05T13:08:19.860" Comment="Proposed by 1241 approved by 3198 edit id of 387" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8732" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2122" RevisionGUID="74d67859-dffd-4ea0-987e-4d9ec8a12bde" CreationDate="2016-12-05T13:27:03.087" UserId="57" Comment="please include links to your sources, when possible" Text="According to [Wikipedia][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he is the son of ʻAkalana and his wife Hina-a-ke-ahi (Hina)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and according to [Encyclopedia Mythica][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Maui's mother Hina complained that the sun traveled too fast across the sky.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, in the tale of Tuna,the eel god, Hina is the wife of Maui. And in another tale, Hina is the sister of him who lends him her hair to make a net to trap the Sun. How exactly is Hina related to Maui in Hawaiian mythology?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=M%C4%81ui_(Hawaiian_mythology)&amp;oldid=752355988&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.pantheon.org/articles/m/maui.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8733" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2123" RevisionGUID="0a3dc148-2c8f-4e93-9c4e-529cc686da14" CreationDate="2016-12-05T13:31:09.227" UserId="57" Comment="added 20 characters in body; edited title" Text="The Wiki page says Friday is named after the goddess Frigg.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Other articles][2] say its both or Freyja, and there are [some][3] that say Frigg and Freyja are the same goddess.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a consesus that I don't know about?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.crowl.org/lawrence/time/days.html#Friday&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frigg_and_Freyja_origin_hypothesis" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8734" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2123" RevisionGUID="0a3dc148-2c8f-4e93-9c4e-529cc686da14" CreationDate="2016-12-05T13:31:09.227" UserId="57" Comment="added 20 characters in body; edited title" Text="Is Friday the day of Frigg or Freyja?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8735" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2123" RevisionGUID="01caa77a-ebfc-4d05-9021-0c928044b4d9" CreationDate="2016-12-05T13:34:16.300" UserDisplayName="user3198" Comment="edited title" Text="Friday: the day of Frigg, or Freyja?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8736" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2125" RevisionGUID="9c86f810-8a28-443e-8570-2518f52a320d" CreationDate="2016-12-05T15:37:54.967" UserId="666" Text="Friday is named for Frigg, see e.g. Gro Stensland's *Fornnordisk Religion* (if you can read Scandinavian) or [Etymology Online][1]. A few Icelandic writers appears to have called it &quot;Freyjudagr&quot; (it would for sure fit better with the Latin name), but this did not catch on and the modern name is derived from Frigg's.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the question of identity, I will refer to [this][2] question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&amp;search=friday&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2073/did-odin-have-a-relationship-with-freya/2074#2074" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8739" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2121" RevisionGUID="1b45d11d-2046-4eb8-be12-2a08e0f00ef6" CreationDate="2016-12-07T08:12:32.877" UserDisplayName="user1385" Comment="added 196 characters in body" Text="&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to what I read in the Internet, there are two variants of the creation myth in Hawaiian mythology. According to the [first](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C4%81ne) [two](http://ancienthawaiiangods.weebly.com/kane.html) websites, the god Kane emerged from Chaos or *Po* and he creates the world with two other gods who emerge from *Po*, Ku and Lono. According to the [third one](https://glitternight.com/2011/03/02/eleven-more-deities-from-hawaiian-mythology-2/), Kane is a child of the Earth Mother Papa and Sky Father Rangi and he separates them from their embrace so that he and his other siblings can have space to live. Which one of these myths is the original one, or is there another creation myth which is older?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8742" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2126" RevisionGUID="2303d6d6-13e8-4c5e-9b5a-1f60b399301b" CreationDate="2016-12-09T06:14:31.787" UserId="3220" Text="I have heard this particular greek/latin saga in school but I can't quite recall what it was called. Can you perhaps help me find it. &#xD;&#xA;So as far as I can recall the saga went as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Two brothers had to plow a field because the ox didn't want to/died. This was apparently a really hard task but they were extremely exhausted but at the same time happy when they finished. As a reward the gods (maybe jupiter) decided to kill/morph them such that they would be eternally happy in the afterlife.   &#xD;&#xA;I feel like it must have been an Ovid saga but again not certain." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8743" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2126" RevisionGUID="2303d6d6-13e8-4c5e-9b5a-1f60b399301b" CreationDate="2016-12-09T06:14:31.787" UserId="3220" Text="Greek/Latin mythology with two brothers who die as reward for hard labor" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8744" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2126" RevisionGUID="2303d6d6-13e8-4c5e-9b5a-1f60b399301b" CreationDate="2016-12-09T06:14:31.787" UserId="3220" Text="|greek|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8745" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2126" RevisionGUID="0ec3003d-bca5-45e1-b78d-70210749b3a3" CreationDate="2016-12-09T06:20:06.663" UserId="3220" Comment="edited body" Text="I have heard this particular greek/latin myth in school but I can't quite recall what it was called. Can you perhaps help me find it. &#xD;&#xA;So as far as I can recall the myth went as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Two brothers had to plow a field because the ox didn't want to/died. This was apparently a really hard task but they were extremely exhausted but at the same time happy when they finished. As a reward the gods (maybe jupiter) decided to kill/morph them such that they would be eternally happy in the afterlife.   &#xD;&#xA;I feel like it must have been an Ovid myth but again not certain." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8746" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2127" RevisionGUID="c822738b-e915-4f99-9bc9-ca89d00a479e" CreationDate="2016-12-09T08:43:47.650" UserId="2774" Text="That story appears in one of the most beautifully written story that can exist. In Herodotus Histories, chapter 1.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Athenian law giver Solon is visiting the richest man of the world&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Lydian Croesus and Croesus want to impress Solon and show him how&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rich and wealthy he is and after asks him who is the most happy&#xD;&#xA;&gt; man:&lt;BR&gt; My Athenian guest, [...] I really can't resist asking you now&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whether you have yet seen anyone who surpass all others in happyness&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and prosperity?&quot;&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Solon tries to give a very polite answer to Croesus telling him the story of the Athenian Tellus who died bravely defending Athens and was honoured for that. Obviously Croesus insists a little bit asking for a second person and here is your story in its full glory.&lt;BR&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cleobis and Biton. The were Argives [inhabitant of Argos] who had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; enough resources to live on and in addition were physically fit, as in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shown by the fact that they both won prizes at athletics contests, as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; well as by this story told about them.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The Argives were having a festival for Hera, and their mother had to be taken to the shrine in a wagon, but the oxen were not back from the fields in time to pull it. [...] The young men put themselves under the yoke and themselves hauled the wagon.[...] their mother was simply elated by her sons' feat and by all the praise [from the Argives' crowd]. She stood before the statue of the godess and said a prayer for [them]: that since they had shown her such great honour let the goddess grant them the best thing human being could have. [After the fest], the young men fell asleep in tat very sanctuary and never awake again. [showing clearly that it is better for a human being to be dead than to be alive]&lt;BR&lt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Translation from the Landmark Herodotus.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Solon will explain then to him than no one can be called happy until his life is over. Pissed off Croesus sent Solon away. Later on he will defy the Persian Lord Cyrius the Great and be beaten. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8747" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2127" RevisionGUID="393c24f5-1d2c-4cc5-bb78-2ef0ae2cc434" CreationDate="2016-12-09T08:59:59.887" UserId="2774" Comment="Minor corrections" Text="That story appears in one of the most beautifully written story that can exist. In Herodotus Histories, chapter 1.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Athenian law giver Solon is visiting the richest man of the world&#xD;&#xA;the Lydian Croesus and Croesus want to impress Solon and show him how&#xD;&#xA; rich and wealthy he is and after asks him who is the most happy&#xD;&#xA;man:&lt;BR&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; My Athenian guest, [...] I really can't resist asking you now&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whether you have yet seen anyone who surpass all others in happyness&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and prosperity?&quot;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Solon tries to give a very polite answer to Croesus telling him the story of the Athenian Tellus who died bravely defending Athens and was honoured for that. Obviously Croesus insists a little bit asking for a second person and here is your story in its full glory.&lt;BR&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cleobis and Biton. The were Argives [inhabitant of Argos] who had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; enough resources to live on and in addition were physically fit, as in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shown by the fact that they both won prizes at athletics contests, as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; well as by this story told about them.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The Argives were having a festival for Hera, and their mother had to be taken to the shrine in a wagon, but the oxen were not back from the fields in time to pull it. [...] The young men put themselves under the yoke and themselves hauled the wagon.[...] their mother was simply elated by her sons' feat and by all the praise [from the Argives' crowd]. She stood before the statue of the godess and said a prayer for [them]: that since they had shown her such great honour let the goddess grant them the best thing human being could have. [After the fest], the young men fell asleep in tat very sanctuary and never awake again. [showing clearly that it is better for a human being to be dead than to be alive]&lt;BR&lt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Translation from the [Landmark Herodotus][1].&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Solon will explain then to him than no one can be called happy until his life is over. Pissed off Croesus sent Solon away. Later on he will defy the Persian Lord Cyrius the Great and be beaten. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.amazon.com/Landmark-Herodotus-Histories-Robert-Strassler/dp/1400031141" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8748" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2127" RevisionGUID="910cf58a-e437-4e0f-b484-a0a11a49f4b4" CreationDate="2016-12-09T09:08:46.840" UserId="2774" Comment="Add plutarch" Text="That story appears in one of the most beautifully written story that can exist. In Herodotus Histories, chapter 1.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Athenian law giver Solon is visiting the richest man of the world&#xD;&#xA;the Lydian Croesus and Croesus want to impress Solon and show him how&#xD;&#xA; rich and wealthy he is and after asks him who is the most happy&#xD;&#xA;man:&lt;BR&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; My Athenian guest, [...] I really can't resist asking you now&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whether you have yet seen anyone who surpass all others in happyness&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and prosperity?&quot;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Solon tries to give a very polite answer to Croesus telling him the story of the Athenian Tellus who died bravely defending Athens and was honoured for that. Obviously Croesus insists a little bit asking for a second person and here is your story in its full glory.&lt;BR&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cleobis and Biton. The were Argives [inhabitant of Argos] who had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; enough resources to live on and in addition were physically fit, as in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shown by the fact that they both won prizes at athletics contests, as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; well as by this story told about them.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The Argives were having a festival for Hera, and their mother had to be taken to the shrine in a wagon, but the oxen were not back from the fields in time to pull it. [...] The young men put themselves under the yoke and themselves hauled the wagon.[...] their mother was simply elated by her sons' feat and by all the praise [from the Argives' crowd]. She stood before the statue of the godess and said a prayer for [them]: that since they had shown her such great honour let the goddess grant them the best thing human being could have. [After the fest], the young men fell asleep in tat very sanctuary and never awake again. [showing clearly that it is better for a human being to be dead than to be alive]&lt;BR&lt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Translation from the [Landmark Herodotus][1].&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Solon will explain then to him than no one can be called happy until his life is over. Pissed off Croesus sent Solon away. Later on he will defy the Persian Lord Cyrius the Great and be beaten. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Plutarch's Parallel lives&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You find this story retold in Plutarch's Parallel lives in the Solon chapter (his roman par is Publius Valerius, Poplicola):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Yes, Cleobis and Biton, who were loving brothers, and  extremely&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dutiful sons to their mother, and, when the oxen delayed  her,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; harnessed themselves to the wagon, and drew her to Juno's  temple, her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; neighbors all calling her happy, and she herself  rejoicing; then,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after sacrificing and feasting, they went to rest, and  never rose&#xD;&#xA;&gt; again, but died in the midst of their honor a painless and  tranquil&#xD;&#xA;&gt; death&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't think you find that story in Ovid.&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.amazon.com/Landmark-Herodotus-Histories-Robert-Strassler/dp/1400031141" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8749" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2126" RevisionGUID="f5fd62ff-54fe-4f24-93c5-4f6352de405e" CreationDate="2016-12-09T11:35:54.047" UserId="111" Comment="added tag" Text="I have heard this particular greek/latin myth in school but I can't quite recall what it was called. Can you perhaps help me find it. &#xD;&#xA;So as far as I can recall the myth went as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Two brothers had to plow a field because the ox didn't want to/died. This was apparently a really hard task but they were extremely exhausted but at the same time happy when they finished. As a reward the gods (maybe Jupiter) decided to kill/morph them such that they would be eternally happy in the afterlife.   &#xD;&#xA;I feel like it must have been an Ovid myth but again not certain." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8750" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2126" RevisionGUID="f5fd62ff-54fe-4f24-93c5-4f6352de405e" CreationDate="2016-12-09T11:35:54.047" UserId="111" Comment="added tag" Text="|greek|myth-identification|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8754" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2128" RevisionGUID="98f2d6ed-0f51-4905-9847-764e25dece21" CreationDate="2016-12-09T20:19:45.440" UserId="1511" Text="Why do we celebrate Christmas as we do today? What do the Christmas symbols mean: Santa, an evergreen tree, adornments, bells, mistletoe, reindeer, elves,socks filled with gourmet...where do they all come from? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8755" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2128" RevisionGUID="98f2d6ed-0f51-4905-9847-764e25dece21" CreationDate="2016-12-09T20:19:45.440" UserId="1511" Text="What Are The Pagan Roots Of Christmas Traditions?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8756" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2128" RevisionGUID="98f2d6ed-0f51-4905-9847-764e25dece21" CreationDate="2016-12-09T20:19:45.440" UserId="1511" Text="|symbolism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8757" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2128" RevisionGUID="3a43c748-8591-44de-9e59-e5561ddb8006" CreationDate="2016-12-09T22:16:18.563" UserId="967" Comment="added 2 characters in body; edited tags" Text="Why do we celebrate Christmas as we do today? What do the Christmas symbols mean: Santa, an evergreen tree, adornments, bells, mistletoe, reindeer, elves, socks filled with gourmet... where do they all come from? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8758" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2128" RevisionGUID="3a43c748-8591-44de-9e59-e5561ddb8006" CreationDate="2016-12-09T22:16:18.563" UserId="967" Comment="added 2 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8760" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2129" RevisionGUID="3d48abca-aeec-4874-86d7-21f4a954296c" CreationDate="2016-12-10T13:22:08.370" UserId="57" Text="The Russian Primary Chronicle mentions the Slavic pantheon of [Vladimir I of Kiev][1], possibly an attempt to reform Slavic paganism: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Vladimir then began to reign alone in Kiev, and he set up idols on&#xD;&#xA;the hills outside the castle with the hall: one of Perun, made of wood&#xD;&#xA;with a head of silver and a mustache of gold, and others of Khors,&#xD;&#xA;Dazh'bog, Stribog, Simar'gl, and Mokosh'. The people sacrificed to&#xD;&#xA;them, calling them gods, and brought their sons and their daughters&#xD;&#xA;to sacrifice them to these devils. They desecrated the earth with their&#xD;&#xA;offerings, and the land of Rus' and this hill were defiled with blood. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Russian Primary Chronicle, Laurentian Text, Translated and edited by Samuel Hazzard Cross and Olgerd P. Sherbowitz-Wetzor&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why did Vladimir pick these gods for his pantheon? How did they relate to each other?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_the_Great" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8761" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2129" RevisionGUID="3d48abca-aeec-4874-86d7-21f4a954296c" CreationDate="2016-12-10T13:22:08.370" UserId="57" Text="How did the gods in the Slavic pantheon relate to each other?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8762" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2129" RevisionGUID="3d48abca-aeec-4874-86d7-21f4a954296c" CreationDate="2016-12-10T13:22:08.370" UserId="57" Text="|pantheon|slavic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8764" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2129" RevisionGUID="563047a4-a151-4494-bbcc-5b5e4a51d035" CreationDate="2016-12-10T13:53:29.063" UserId="57" Comment="added 109 characters in body" Text="The Russian Primary Chronicle mentions the Slavic pantheon of [Vladimir I of Kiev][1], possibly an attempt to reform Slavic paganism: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Vladimir then began to reign alone in Kiev, and he set up idols on&#xD;&#xA;the hills outside the castle with the hall: one of Perun, made of wood&#xD;&#xA;with a head of silver and a mustache of gold, and others of Khors,&#xD;&#xA;Dazh'bog, Stribog, Simar'gl, and Mokosh'. The people sacrificed to&#xD;&#xA;them, calling them gods, and brought their sons and their daughters&#xD;&#xA;to sacrifice them to these devils. They desecrated the earth with their&#xD;&#xA;offerings, and the land of Rus' and this hill were defiled with blood. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Russian Primary Chronicle, Laurentian Text, Translated and edited by Samuel Hazzard Cross and Olgerd P. Sherbowitz-Wetzor&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why did Vladimir pick these gods for his pantheon? How did they relate to each other? Was this the first time they were assembled in a pantheon, or were they grouped together in earlier times?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_the_Great" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8767" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2130" RevisionGUID="71e64991-7a72-4cc9-b40b-d16a11568a37" CreationDate="2016-12-11T04:49:48.040" UserId="3228" Text="Well, from what I remember, it was because of the winter solstice, and getting new followers. That's what I remember....&#xA;&#xA;The beginning of the article I'm about to talk about, mentions saturnalia, a roman feast to the god Saturn.&#xA;&#xA;Then, there's Sol Invictus and Mithras, which was a feast by Roman Emperor Aurelian.  The Mithraists (Mithras) are linked because they believed Mithras, and sol were the same God, just with different forms. &#xA;&#xA;&gt; The feast of Sol Invictus was the attempt by the Roman emperor&#xA;&gt; Aurelian to reform the cult of Sol, the Roman sun god, and and&#xA;&gt; reintroduce it to his people, inaugurating Sol's temple and holding&#xA;&gt; games for the first time in A.D. 274. Not only was this festival not&#xA;&gt; annual, it also cannot be historically documented as having been&#xA;&gt; established on December 25 by Aurelian (cf. Steven HijMans, Sol&#xA;&gt; Invictus, The Winter Solstice, and the Origins of Christmas, Mouseion,&#xA;&gt; Series III, vol. 3, pp. 377-398).&#xA;&#xA;&gt; According to inscriptions on candle votives and other ancient works of&#xA;&gt; art, there is a link between Mithras and Sol Invictus. In some cases&#xA;&gt; it appears the Mithraists believed that Mithras and Sol were two&#xA;&gt; different manifestations of the same god. In others they appear to be&#xA;&gt; two gods united as one. These connections are difficult to understand&#xA;&gt; given our limited knowledge of the Mithraic belief system, but they&#xA;&gt; are important because they help to explain why skeptics claim the&#xA;&gt; birthday of Mithras was celebrated on December 25.&#xA;&#xA;Another Christian mentioned records that Pope Gregory the great, told St. Augustine of Canterbury to co-opt pagan festivals, and sacred space, and make them Christian, so that supports what I remember.&#xA;&#xA;At least that's what was mentioned, though, mentions from other records show that people from that time, actually wanted to distance themselves from pagans. Here's the exact quote from the person I mentioned.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; #2  Michael Paul - Crook, Colorado &#xA;&#xA;&gt; There doesn't have to be a pagan holiday that Christmas or other Christian feast days were intentionally replacing (though we know that Pope Gregory the Great told St. Augustine of Canterbury to co-opt pagan festivals and sacred space and make them Christian, so this practice did take place).&#xA;&#xA;&gt; For one thing, Romans had a holiday about every three days, so every saints day, or event in the life of Christ would likely fall close to a Roman holiday and was not necessarily intentionally placed on that date to coopt a pagan festival. &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Secondly, St. John Chrysostom gave a homily on Christmas (in fact, five of his Christmas sermons survive)&#xA;&gt; about 386 AD (Migne, Patriologus Graecae, vol. 49, cols. 351-362, esp.&#xA;&gt; Section 5, col. 357) in which, by looking at the Gospel of Luke, he&#xA;&gt; was able to argue that Christ was born in late December; he didn’t&#xA;&gt; argue that it was merely an effort to replace a Roman or pagan&#xA;&gt; festival. He argued that if Zachary was serving in the Temple &quot;and all&#xA;&gt; the multitude of the people was praying without&quot; (Lk 1:10), it must be&#xA;&gt; the greatest Jewish Feast of Tabernacles, which occurs in late&#xA;&gt; September or early October. Zachary returned home, Elizabeth conceived&#xA;&gt; soon thereafter, and the Angel Gabriel appeared to Mary while&#xA;&gt; Elizabeth was “in her sixth month” (not after six months), which would&#xA;&gt; be late March, and Jesus was born nine months after that, in late&#xA;&gt; December. So Christmas doesn’t have to be a coopted pagan festival.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; December 19, 2013 at 8:13 pm PST&#xA;&#xA; Another reason for Dec. 25, is because it's mentioned that Dec. 25, is nine months from March 25, the time they believed that the world was created on.  Even though it's mentioned in previous quote, humor me. &#xA;&#xA;&gt; #16  Charles Jackson - Arlington, Texas&#xA;Dec 25th is 9 months from March 25 and March 25th is 6 months from Oct 25th. October 25th in the Jewish year of 3760 was the Day of Atonement. As you know, the Day of Atonement is the one day of the year the High Priest goes into the Temple to light incense, in atonement for his sins and sins of the Jews.&#xA;The year 3760 was the year Zechariah was chosen by lot to go into the Holy of Holies. There he was visited by the angel Gabriel and told his barren wife would have a child.&#xA;That day correlates to Oct 25 th Gregorian calendar. Six months from that time Gabriel visited Mary and headed to the hill country to visit Elizabeth. Count 9 months from 25 March and you have 25 Dec.&#xA;So in a sense you can say Christmas can be determined from Luke and Deuteronomy. 3760 + 2015=5775 which is the Jewish year we are in.&#xA;January 1, 2015 at 11:25 am PST&#xA;&#xA;Another person mentions that Dec. 25 is the day Jesus died, and that Christmas is a mockery to him, here's his quote.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; #12  mar castro - Dublin, California&#xA;&gt; Dictionary.com is a modern translation of Christianity. They disguised the true meaning. Read the book written by Catholic Church.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; If you are an honest, sincere and discerning Christian, please read&#xA;&gt; on; if not, you might as well stop right here. The World Book&#xA;&gt; Encyclopedia defines &quot;Christmas&quot; as follows: &quot;The word Christmas comes&#xA;&gt; from &quot;Cristes Maesse&quot;, an early English phrase that means &quot;Mass of&#xA;&gt; Christ.&quot; (1) It is interesting to note that the word &quot;Mass&quot;, as used&#xA;&gt; by the Roman Catholics, has traditionally been rejected by the&#xA;&gt; so-called Protestants, such as Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists,&#xA;&gt; Presbyterians, Pentecostals and so on. The word &quot;Mass&quot; is strictly a&#xA;&gt; Catholic word and thus, so is &quot;Christ-Mass.&quot;&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; As previously stated, the word &quot;Mass&quot; in religious usage means a&#xA;&gt; &quot;death sacrifice.&quot; The impact of this fact is horrifying and shocking;&#xA;&gt; for when the millions of people are saying, &quot;Merry Christmas&quot;, they&#xA;&gt; are literally saying &quot;Merry death of Christ!&quot; Furthermore, when the&#xA;&gt; fat man in the red suit laughs boisterously and says, &quot;Ho ho ho, Merry&#xA;&gt; Christmas&quot;, he is mocking and laughing at the suffering and bleeding&#xA;&gt; Saviour, who died for our sins. He does this while parents place their&#xA;&gt; little children into his waiting arms to hear his false promises of&#xA;&gt; gifts that he says he will give them. Consider what you are saying&#xA;&gt; when you say &quot;Merry Christmas.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; December 11, 2014 at 5:06 pm PST&#xA;&gt; #13  mar castro - Dublin, California My references:&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; Christmas Chist = Jesus Chirst Mas - death sacrifice&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; 01. World Book Encyclopedia, vol.3, p. 408, 1986 ed., World Book Inc., Chicago, IL&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; 02. The Catholic Encyclopedia, R.C. Broderick, 1975 ed., Nihil Obstat, Richard J. Sklba, Censor Librorum. Imprimatur, Archbishop William E.&#xA;&gt; Cousins, Milwaukee, WI.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; 03. The Mass In Slow Motion, Ronald Knox, 1948, Sheed &amp; Ward, Inc., New York, NY. Nihil Obstat, E.C. Messenger, Censor Deputatus.&#xA;&gt; Imprimatur, E. Morrogh Bernard, Vic. Gen.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; December 12, 2014 at 5:58 pm PST&#xA;&#xA;Here's the URL, for the website that I quoted on.&#xA;&#xA;http://www.catholic.com/blog/jon-sorensen/why-december-25&#xA;&#xA;For the symbols, like mistletoes, here you go.&#xA;The informations a plenty, so it would behoove me to just give you the link.&#xA;It's a lot to read, and I found it quite interesting honestly.&#xA;&#xA;http://www.celebratingholidays.com/?page_id=1491" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8768" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2130" RevisionGUID="8e0d900e-0eed-43a7-b30d-68bf521a346f" CreationDate="2016-12-11T05:07:50.173" UserId="3228" Comment="added 638 characters in body; added 72 characters in body" Text="Well, from what I remember, it was because of the winter solstice, and getting new followers. That's what I remember....&#xA;&#xA;The beginning of the article I'm about to talk about, mentions saturnalia, a roman feast to the god Saturn.&#xA;&#xA;Then, there's Sol Invictus and Mithras, which was a feast by Roman Emperor Aurelian.  The Mithraists (Mithras) are linked because they believed Mithras, and sol were the same God, just with different forms. &#xA;&#xA;&gt; The feast of Sol Invictus was the attempt by the Roman emperor&#xA;&gt; Aurelian to reform the cult of Sol, the Roman sun god, and and&#xA;&gt; reintroduce it to his people, inaugurating Sol's temple and holding&#xA;&gt; games for the first time in A.D. 274. Not only was this festival not&#xA;&gt; annual, it also cannot be historically documented as having been&#xA;&gt; established on December 25 by Aurelian (cf. Steven HijMans, Sol&#xA;&gt; Invictus, The Winter Solstice, and the Origins of Christmas, Mouseion,&#xA;&gt; Series III, vol. 3, pp. 377-398).&#xA;&#xA;&gt; According to inscriptions on candle votives and other ancient works of&#xA;&gt; art, there is a link between Mithras and Sol Invictus. In some cases&#xA;&gt; it appears the Mithraists believed that Mithras and Sol were two&#xA;&gt; different manifestations of the same god. In others they appear to be&#xA;&gt; two gods united as one. These connections are difficult to understand&#xA;&gt; given our limited knowledge of the Mithraic belief system, but they&#xA;&gt; are important because they help to explain why skeptics claim the&#xA;&gt; birthday of Mithras was celebrated on December 25.&#xA;&#xA;Another Christian mentioned records that Pope Gregory the great, told St. Augustine of Canterbury to co-opt pagan festivals, and sacred space, and make them Christian, so that supports what I remember.&#xA;&#xA;At least that's what was mentioned, though, mentions from other records show that people from that time, actually wanted to distance themselves from pagans. Here's the exact quote from the person I mentioned.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; #2  Michael Paul - Crook, Colorado &#xA;&#xA;&gt; There doesn't have to be a pagan holiday that Christmas or other Christian feast days were intentionally replacing (though we know that Pope Gregory the Great told St. Augustine of Canterbury to co-opt pagan festivals and sacred space and make them Christian, so this practice did take place).&#xA;&#xA;&gt; For one thing, Romans had a holiday about every three days, so every saints day, or event in the life of Christ would likely fall close to a Roman holiday and was not necessarily intentionally placed on that date to coopt a pagan festival. &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Secondly, St. John Chrysostom gave a homily on Christmas (in fact, five of his Christmas sermons survive)&#xA;&gt; about 386 AD (Migne, Patriologus Graecae, vol. 49, cols. 351-362, esp.&#xA;&gt; Section 5, col. 357) in which, by looking at the Gospel of Luke, he&#xA;&gt; was able to argue that Christ was born in late December; he didn’t&#xA;&gt; argue that it was merely an effort to replace a Roman or pagan&#xA;&gt; festival. He argued that if Zachary was serving in the Temple &quot;and all&#xA;&gt; the multitude of the people was praying without&quot; (Lk 1:10), it must be&#xA;&gt; the greatest Jewish Feast of Tabernacles, which occurs in late&#xA;&gt; September or early October. Zachary returned home, Elizabeth conceived&#xA;&gt; soon thereafter, and the Angel Gabriel appeared to Mary while&#xA;&gt; Elizabeth was “in her sixth month” (not after six months), which would&#xA;&gt; be late March, and Jesus was born nine months after that, in late&#xA;&gt; December. So Christmas doesn’t have to be a coopted pagan festival.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; December 19, 2013 at 8:13 pm PST&#xA;&#xA; Another reason for Dec. 25, is because it's mentioned that Dec. 25, is nine months from March 25, the time they believed that the world was created on.  Even though it's mentioned in previous quote, humor me. &#xA;&#xA;&gt; #16  Charles Jackson - Arlington, Texas&#xA;Dec 25th is 9 months from March 25 and March 25th is 6 months from Oct 25th. October 25th in the Jewish year of 3760 was the Day of Atonement. As you know, the Day of Atonement is the one day of the year the High Priest goes into the Temple to light incense, in atonement for his sins and sins of the Jews.&#xA;The year 3760 was the year Zechariah was chosen by lot to go into the Holy of Holies. There he was visited by the angel Gabriel and told his barren wife would have a child.&#xA;That day correlates to Oct 25 th Gregorian calendar. Six months from that time Gabriel visited Mary and headed to the hill country to visit Elizabeth. Count 9 months from 25 March and you have 25 Dec.&#xA;So in a sense you can say Christmas can be determined from Luke and Deuteronomy. 3760 + 2015=5775 which is the Jewish year we are in.&#xA;January 1, 2015 at 11:25 am PST&#xA;&#xA;Another person mentions that Dec. 25 is the day Jesus died, and that Christmas is a mockery to him, here's his quote.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; #12  mar castro - Dublin, California&#xA;&gt; Dictionary.com is a modern translation of Christianity. They disguised the true meaning. Read the book written by Catholic Church.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; If you are an honest, sincere and discerning Christian, please read&#xA;&gt; on; if not, you might as well stop right here. The World Book&#xA;&gt; Encyclopedia defines &quot;Christmas&quot; as follows: &quot;The word Christmas comes&#xA;&gt; from &quot;Cristes Maesse&quot;, an early English phrase that means &quot;Mass of&#xA;&gt; Christ.&quot; (1) It is interesting to note that the word &quot;Mass&quot;, as used&#xA;&gt; by the Roman Catholics, has traditionally been rejected by the&#xA;&gt; so-called Protestants, such as Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists,&#xA;&gt; Presbyterians, Pentecostals and so on. The word &quot;Mass&quot; is strictly a&#xA;&gt; Catholic word and thus, so is &quot;Christ-Mass.&quot;&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; As previously stated, the word &quot;Mass&quot; in religious usage means a&#xA;&gt; &quot;death sacrifice.&quot; The impact of this fact is horrifying and shocking;&#xA;&gt; for when the millions of people are saying, &quot;Merry Christmas&quot;, they&#xA;&gt; are literally saying &quot;Merry death of Christ!&quot; Furthermore, when the&#xA;&gt; fat man in the red suit laughs boisterously and says, &quot;Ho ho ho, Merry&#xA;&gt; Christmas&quot;, he is mocking and laughing at the suffering and bleeding&#xA;&gt; Saviour, who died for our sins. He does this while parents place their&#xA;&gt; little children into his waiting arms to hear his false promises of&#xA;&gt; gifts that he says he will give them. Consider what you are saying&#xA;&gt; when you say &quot;Merry Christmas.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; December 11, 2014 at 5:06 pm PST&#xA;&gt; #13  mar castro - Dublin, California My references:&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; Christmas Chist = Jesus Chirst Mas - death sacrifice&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; 01. World Book Encyclopedia, vol.3, p. 408, 1986 ed., World Book Inc., Chicago, IL&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; 02. The Catholic Encyclopedia, R.C. Broderick, 1975 ed., Nihil Obstat, Richard J. Sklba, Censor Librorum. Imprimatur, Archbishop William E.&#xA;&gt; Cousins, Milwaukee, WI.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; 03. The Mass In Slow Motion, Ronald Knox, 1948, Sheed &amp; Ward, Inc., New York, NY. Nihil Obstat, E.C. Messenger, Censor Deputatus.&#xA;&gt; Imprimatur, E. Morrogh Bernard, Vic. Gen.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; December 12, 2014 at 5:58 pm PST&#xA;&#xA;Here's the URL, for the website that I quoted on.&#xA;&#xA;http://www.catholic.com/blog/jon-sorensen/why-december-25&#xA;&#xA;For the symbols, like mistletoes, here you go.&#xA;The informations a plenty, so it would behoove me to just give you the link.&#xA;It's a lot to read, and I found it quite interesting honestly.&#xA;&#xA;http://www.celebratingholidays.com/?page_id=1491&#xA;&#xA;P.S. What's interesting, is that the mention I found relating to Christmas, is actually about sol.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&gt; What is the TRUE ORIGIN of Christmas? Where did it come from? Did you&#xA;&gt; know Yeshua the Messiah was born nowhere NEAR December 25, but that&#xA;&gt; was the &quot;birth day&quot; of the sun- god, &quot;Sol Invictus&quot; or &quot;Mithras&quot;? Did&#xA;&gt; you know December 25 was the concluding day of the pagan winter&#xA;&gt; festival called the &quot;Saturnalia&quot;? Where did &quot;Santa Claus&quot; come from?&#xA;&gt; The &quot;Christmas tree&quot;? How did this pagan feast become connected with&#xA;&gt; &quot;Christianity&quot;? Here is an amazing &quot;whale of a tale&quot;!&#xA;&#xA;This is from, http://www. hope-of-israel. org/cmas1.html&#xA;I'm not able to put three links, sorry, and also it's very opinionated." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8769" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2131" RevisionGUID="81e76131-9f83-411f-9139-2234e2f3c720" CreationDate="2016-12-11T06:20:00.297" UserId="3229" Text="First, I apologize if this is asked in the wrong place, but I'm finding it hard placing this question, which is this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![5-pointed star][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The symbol above is called a &quot;star&quot;, but why?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have read that the symbol predates the telescope, but stars do not look five-pointed to the naked eye. Possibly it was only _called_ a star very recently, but perhaps the origins are much older and more mythological. If so, then maybe somebody here can clarify the issue for me, or at least point me in the right direction?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/cf1CU.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8770" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2131" RevisionGUID="81e76131-9f83-411f-9139-2234e2f3c720" CreationDate="2016-12-11T06:20:00.297" UserId="3229" Text="Origin of why we call the five-pointed star a &quot;star&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8771" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2131" RevisionGUID="81e76131-9f83-411f-9139-2234e2f3c720" CreationDate="2016-12-11T06:20:00.297" UserId="3229" Text="|origins|astrology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8772" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2132" RevisionGUID="4c3f7266-e8c8-4794-87a0-2571e131d5ba" CreationDate="2016-12-11T10:46:50.420" UserId="3230" Text="Why do people kiss under the mistletoe at Christmas?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where does the tradition come from?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8773" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2132" RevisionGUID="4c3f7266-e8c8-4794-87a0-2571e131d5ba" CreationDate="2016-12-11T10:46:50.420" UserId="3230" Text="Why do we kiss under the mistletoe?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8774" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2132" RevisionGUID="4c3f7266-e8c8-4794-87a0-2571e131d5ba" CreationDate="2016-12-11T10:46:50.420" UserId="3230" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8775" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="2128" RevisionGUID="a3d5bae7-9bb5-4863-a85a-c4a747706bd5" CreationDate="2016-12-11T10:54:13.857" UserId="57" Comment="104" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:62,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Hamlet&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:42,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;femtoRgon&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Yannis&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="8776" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1639" RevisionGUID="8e7a5576-46eb-40cd-80f4-58b00cc6d2f7" CreationDate="2016-12-11T10:55:43.243" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|origins|christmas|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8777" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2132" RevisionGUID="bf46b5d8-08e4-4cd4-855a-134c3c4bc5c4" CreationDate="2016-12-11T10:55:53.137" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags; edited tags" Text="|christmas|traditions|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8778" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1448" RevisionGUID="b5f5e4c4-2ae8-40b2-869c-027b5095fb18" CreationDate="2016-12-11T10:56:03.353" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|comparative|christianity|judaism|christmas|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8779" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2128" RevisionGUID="f43eb869-db7e-4297-b17d-940de02a2daa" CreationDate="2016-12-11T10:56:17.110" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags; edited tags" Text="|origins|christmas|traditions|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8780" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2133" RevisionGUID="3e1d6466-e9f9-455e-a838-355fa86a06bc" CreationDate="2016-12-11T12:43:25.520" UserId="1241" Text="The mistletoe kissing Christmas tradition as we know it seems to have its origin in the 18th century England.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Kissing under sprigs of mistletoe is a well-known holiday tradition, but this little plant’s history as a symbolic herb dates back thousands of years. Many ancient cultures prized mistletoe for its healing properties. The Greeks were known to use it as a cure for everything from menstrual cramps to spleen disorders, and the Roman naturalist Pliny the Elder noted it could be used as a balm against epilepsy, ulcers and poisons. The plant’s romantic overtones most likely started with the Celtic Druids of the 1st century A.D. Because mistletoe could blossom even during the frozen winter, the Druids came to view it as a sacred symbol of vivacity, and they administered it to humans and animals alike in the hope of restoring fertility. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Another famous chapter in mistletoe folklore comes from Norse mythology. As the story goes, when the god Odin’s son Baldur was prophesied to die, his mother Frigg, the goddess of love, went to all the animals and plants of the natural world to secure an oath that they would not harm him. But Frigg neglected to consult with the unassuming mistletoe, so the scheming god Loki made an arrow from the plant and saw that it was used to kill the otherwise invincible Baldur. According to one sunnier version of the myth, the gods were able to resurrect Baldur from the dead. Delighted, **Frigg then declared mistletoe a symbol of love and vowed to plant a kiss on all those who passed beneath it.** &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Mistletoe’s associations with fertility and vitality continued through the Middle Ages, and **by the 18th century it had become widely incorporated into Christmas celebrations.** Just how it made the jump from sacred herb to holiday decoration remains up for debate, **but the kissing tradition appears to have first caught on among servants in England before spreading to the middle classes**. As part of the early custom, men were allowed to steal a kiss from any woman caught standing under the mistletoe, and refusing was viewed as bad luck. Yet another tradition instructed the merrymakers to pluck a single berry from the mistletoe with each kiss, and to stop smooching once they were all gone. - [Why do we kiss under the mistletoe? (Ask History)][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.history.com/news/ask-history/why-do-we-kiss-under-the-mistletoe" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8781" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2131" RevisionGUID="0c5cb147-32e3-4e5a-b2fe-048f7d4efa0b" CreationDate="2016-12-11T13:44:43.323" UserId="3229" Comment="not really astrology related" Text="|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8782" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2128" RevisionGUID="726849aa-b013-4dd6-8d1a-aa2df344e06a" CreationDate="2016-12-11T17:37:46.487" UserId="398" Comment="added 25 characters in body; edited title" Text="Why do we celebrate Christmas as we do today? What do the Christmas symbols mean: Santa, an evergreen tree, adornments, bells, mistletoe, reindeer, elves, socks filled with gourmet... where do they all come from? Are they pagan in origin?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8783" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2128" RevisionGUID="726849aa-b013-4dd6-8d1a-aa2df344e06a" CreationDate="2016-12-11T17:37:46.487" UserId="398" Comment="added 25 characters in body; edited title" Text="Are There Pagan Roots of Christmas Traditions?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8785" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2134" RevisionGUID="dcc6a782-b7c5-464d-b972-68f0b2e99b7e" CreationDate="2016-12-11T19:32:34.527" UserId="398" Text="There is no specific myth of the origin of angels in mainstream Christianity or Judaism, but more apocryphal stuff abounds. The closest you'll get in the Bible proper is [Psalm 148](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%20148), where Yahweh creates angels along with all heavenly things &quot;by his command.&quot; It's probably as simple as that - no unusual origin like with man, just say it and it is so. It does, however, establish a very &quot;otherworldly&quot; even &quot;celestial&quot; nature to them, since they're named with the sun, moon, and stars. No terrestrial beings or features are mentioned here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jewish Midrashic and Talmudic literature has angels created on the fifth day:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he Talmud and Midrash contain a variety of opinions on the origin and nature of angels. The angels were created on the second or the fifth day of creation (R. Johanan and R. Ḥanina, Gen. R. 1:3 and parall.; S.A. Wertheimer, Battei Midrashot, 1 (19502), 25; cf. also R. Kirchheim in Oẓar Neḥmad, 3 (1860), 59, ed. J. Blumenfeld). Creation of angels is continuous since every pronouncement by God results in the creation of angels. Angels walk upright, speak Hebrew, and are endowed with understanding; they can fly in the air, move from one end of the world to another, and foretell the future (Ḥag. 16a). Thus angels have something in common with both men and demons. They have the shape of man, but consist half of fire and half of water (TJ, RH 2; PdRK, ed. Mandelbaum, 6; Song R. 3:11, 15).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/angels.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8786" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2135" RevisionGUID="accfd441-daf9-453c-baeb-2a170cfc64cc" CreationDate="2016-12-11T23:06:12.960" UserId="398" Text="The Rig Veda 10.129 (via Wikipedia):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Neither being (sat) nor non-being was as yet. What was concealed? And where? And in whose protection?…Who really knows? Who can declare it? When was it born, and when came this creation? The devas were born later than this world's creation, so who knows from where it came into existence? None can know from where creation has arisen, and whether he has or has not produced it. He who surveys it in the highest heavens, He alone knows-or perhaps does not know.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A good place to start is Madeleine Biardeau's chapter &quot;Vedic Cosmogony&quot; in White's *Mythology* (vol. 2), 1991. Here's the Oxford Bibliography note on it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Takes most Rig Vedic cosmogonies to be fragmentary or allusive, with two exceptions: the Indra myth, later modified due to Indra’s changing rapport with Vishnu; and the Puruṣasūkta. Only the latter, according to Biardeau, has lasting impact in constituting an order of the world based on sacrificial activity that “would come to be called dharma.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Upanishads by contrast moved to Brahmanic omnipotence. [Alf Hiltebeitel](http://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780195399318/obo-9780195399318-0068.xml#obo-9780195399318-0068-div1-0006) summarizes the movement as such:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; New Upanishadic teachings about the ultimacy of the self (atman) and its oneness with the absolute, or Brahman, reshape late Vedic discourses about cosmogony. If the self is all, how did it become all? Some cosmogonic passages pose that question in the name of Prajāpati, others in the name of Brahman or Puruṣa. There are also shorter passages that relate atman to cosmogonic concepts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One book and one article you may want to check out (with corresponding Oxford Bibliography annotations on them):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Deussen, Paul. *The Philosophy of the Upanishads*. New York: Dover, 1966.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The classic study of Upanishadic thought, presenting it as moving toward system: particularly Advaita Vedanta. Deussen coins the term “cosmogonism” here to describe the move from stating the atman-universe identity in early Upanishads to that of stating the atman to be the cause that produces the universe. He sees this as allowing both reversion to Vedic cosmogonies and opening new theistic and evolutionistic trends. Originally published in 1906.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Buitenen, J. A. B. van. “The Large Ātman.” History of Religions 4.1 (1964): 103–114.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A landmark study that addresses many issues raised by Deussen, with supple argumentation. Van Buitenen notes consistencies across early Upanishads of an innovative cosmogony in which “the great ātman” becomes the “whole,” pervading the cosmic body and social order it creates “down to the nail-tops.” In later Upanishads and philosophical portions of the Mahābhārata, the concept becomes serialized in hierarchically scaled accounts of creation, in some of which the creator is personalized." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8789" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2136" RevisionGUID="6c1262f5-425e-4a87-b6f5-1b7d7b97ff44" CreationDate="2016-12-12T15:10:55.557" UserId="292" Text="Most reputable writers on Norse and German mythology agree: Friday is Frigga's day. (See Simek, Lindow, and Davidson, among others). [Grimm also noted][1] that the form of the names for Friday relate to the name Frigg, not Freyja, although since he saw the two as more or less identical, it didn't worry him very much.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://gamall-steinn.org/text/other-jg1.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8791" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2136" RevisionGUID="9a6cd953-d19e-46db-89ea-4a5ebba62b79" CreationDate="2016-12-12T15:22:43.020" UserId="292" Comment="added 605 characters in body" Text="A quote from Rudolf Simek's *Dictionary of Northern Mythology* will show how the word &quot;Friday&quot; is related to the name Frigga:&#xD;&#xA;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ..when the Roman week-day names were translated, Venus was so&#xD;&#xA;&gt; obviously identified as the Latin equivalent to Frigg that dies&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Veneris became OHG *friatac*, OE *frigedeag* [Engl. Friday]. In&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Scandinavia, interestingly enough, the South German word *friadag*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; waas taken over (ON *friadagr*) instead of a native name&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Friggjadagr* being created. (94)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Grimm also noted][1] that the form of the names for Friday relate to the name Frigg, not Freyja, although since he saw the two as more or less identical, it didn't worry him very much.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The mystery is why not Freyja, especially in Scandinavia, where she was more popular, and what was it about Frigg that made them think of Venus? Either there's more to her than we know, or they saw Venus differently from how we do.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://gamall-steinn.org/text/other-jg1.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8793" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2137" RevisionGUID="327e6a66-5d55-496c-bf6c-9bbdf7f3f429" CreationDate="2016-12-12T19:41:07.897" UserId="3023" Text="There is no historical connection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The cultures that worshiped Asherah were mostly destroyed when the Babylonians invaded the kingdom of Judah and took a large portion of the populace as captives. The last reference to Asherah worship in the Bible is 2 Kings 23, during the reign of Josiah (r. 640 to 609 BCE).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Christmas trees became popular in Europe starting in Germany in the 1500s. There is no historical or cultural connection to the practices within Judah." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8796" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2138" RevisionGUID="c42828b0-52c1-4821-bd1c-efb45fe2df92" CreationDate="2016-12-13T06:53:51.023" UserId="3234" Text="This answer has very little to do with mythology, but I found this question in the &quot;Unanswered&quot; list and thought I should pitch in. The answer is right there at the link in your question:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; My Game is an excerpt from a novel in progress. The novel is yet another interpretation of the Mahabharatha. It deals with the events and personalities depicted in the epic in a rational way, in an attempt at another look at the age-old story. The narrator is Sahadeva…&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With a little bit of Google searching and other tricks like guessing URLs, I found the two parts where the excerpts were published in the newspaper _The Hindu_ (as the blog mentions):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. [Sunday, May 29, 2005, Kesava Menon, _Sahadeva's Story: My Game_](http://www.thehindu.com/mag/2005/05/29/stories/2005052900250400.htm)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 2. [Sunday, Jun 05, 2005, Kesava Menon, _Sahadeva's Story II: Blending in_](http://www.thehindu.com/thehindu/mag/2005/06/05/stories/2005060500240400.htm)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As both of them say, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; My Game is an excerpt from a novel in progress.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This is the second excerpt from a novel in progress; the first was published in The Hindu Sunday Magazine of May 29.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who is the author of the novel in progress? It is a fair assumption that as the articles don't attribute the excerpts to anyone else, the novel is one that was being written at the time (2005) by Kesava Menon himself. There is some supporting evidence at the first one, whose introduction contains:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In a sense, Sahadeva's perspective is that of a political reporter. No such profession is known to have existed those many centuries ago. That being so, the novel is essentially one in which a political reporter of today re-examines the epic in a search for new insights.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Well, &quot;the political reporter of today&quot; is Kesava Menon. Who is he? There is some information at [this news article from 2009 (&quot;Kesava Menon is Mathrubhumi Editor&quot;)](http://news.webindia123.com/news/Articles/India/20090219/1181467.html)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mr M Kesava Menon has taken over as Editor of Mathrubhumi, a prominent&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Malayalam daily, in Kozhikode in Kerala.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Till recently, he was Associate Editor of &quot;The Hindu&quot; newspaper at&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Chennai. Born in 1957, Menon is a law graduate and had served in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Supreme Court and Kerala High Court before taking up journalism.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Having started his stint with the Patriot, Mr Menon moved on to The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hindu in 1984 as a special correspondent covering the Khalistan&#xD;&#xA;&gt; movement, Kashmir, Left and BJP politics in Madhya Pradesh, Uttar&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pradesh and other areas. From 1990 to 1993 he was posted in Pakistan&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as foreign correspondent and covered various epochal events including&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Afghan civil war. From 1993 to 1994 he was based in Chennai as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Associate Editor.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; From 1994 to 2002 Menon was stationed in Bahrain covering West Asia,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; before returning to Chennai in 2002. He has travelled extensively in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Gulf.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; He is the great grandson of K P Kesava Menon, founder-editor of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mathrubhumi.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is [another short bio with photograph here](http://www.wan-ifra.org/events/speakers/m-kesava-menon), in connection with [a 2012 event](http://www.wan-ifra.org/events/wan-ifra-india-2012?view=speakers). It does not mention any books published.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With this, searching for [&quot;kesava menon&quot; sahadeva] threw up results like [this blog post from 2005 June 5](http://quatrainman.blogspot.com/2005/06/sahadeva-uvaacha-sunday-magazine.html):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Sunday Magazine section of The Hindu has a interesting new series of extracts from what is supposed to be &quot;a novel in progress.&quot; by Kesava Menon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only other mention is in [this thesis](http://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/bitstream/10603/17256/9/09_chapter%202.pdf):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Several modern novelistic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; retellings have been attempted by Malayalam writers, which include&#xD;&#xA;&gt; _Randamoozham_ by M.T. Vasudevan Nair and _Ini Njan Urangatte_ by P.K.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Balakrishnan. A recent prose retelling by Kesava Menon, _Sahadeva's Story,_&#xD;&#xA;&gt; focuses on Sahadeva, who the author says, has a perception of a political&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reporter and is also skilled to do spy work for Yudhishthira.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Again it took some URL-guessing to find out what thesis it is. It's [this one](http://hdl.handle.net/10603/17256):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Leena P. Pai (JNU), _A Passage through the Mahābhārata Re-Tellings: Study of some Contemporary novels_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you look inside, it's dated July 12, 2005, a month after the newspaper articles. The reference in the bibliography is to&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Menon, Krishna. &quot;Sahadeva's Story&quot;. _The Hindu: Magazine._ 29 May 2005, Weekly ed-2: 4.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is fair to assume that the novel was not yet complete by then, and the meticulous author of the thesis mentioned it based on the newspaper articles. (Well she got the name of the author wrong, but including a mention from 29 June 2005 in a thesis completed before 12 July 2005 is impressive.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is also fair to assume, from the fact that there seem to be no other mentions on the internet, that the novel was never completed or published." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8797" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1641" RevisionGUID="c7ede909-1398-4e4a-a15a-4e3bfcd3a6d3" CreationDate="2016-12-13T08:09:13.420" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved formatting." Text="Krampus is from Austro-Bavarian alpine folklore and has his origins in germanic paganism.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Krampus existed in Bavaria earlier than the 17th Century, dating back to the times of a Germanic Paganism. When Bavaria and its neighbours became Christian countries, an attempt was made to rid the land of Krampus. During the Inquisition in the 12th Century, the Catholic Church tried to eradicate the celebration of Krampus because of his devilish appearance.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So he's definitely pre-12th century but seems to have been popularized as we know him today in the 17th century.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;In 17th Century Alpine legends, he travels with St Nicholas to dole out punishments to naughty children with a rod of birch. The particularly naughty children are kidnapped and taken away to his lair. Some variation of the myth say this is where he devours them, though most leave the demise of the children up to interpretation.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From: [Christmas Demons II - Krampus and Perchta ](http://www.iga.stir.ac.uk/showblog.php?id=186) " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8798" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1641" RevisionGUID="c7ede909-1398-4e4a-a15a-4e3bfcd3a6d3" CreationDate="2016-12-13T08:09:13.420" Comment="Proposed by 1241 approved by 292, 111 edit id of 388" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8800" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2139" RevisionGUID="1cb14c61-1744-4b3a-af85-12c639c65b34" CreationDate="2016-12-13T12:16:03.900" UserId="3230" Text="Traditionally, people in Ethiopia play gena - a rugby like game - on Christmas day. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where does this tradition come from?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8801" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2139" RevisionGUID="1cb14c61-1744-4b3a-af85-12c639c65b34" CreationDate="2016-12-13T12:16:03.900" UserId="3230" Text="Why do Ethiopians play gena on Christmas?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8802" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2139" RevisionGUID="1cb14c61-1744-4b3a-af85-12c639c65b34" CreationDate="2016-12-13T12:16:03.900" UserId="3230" Text="|africa|christmas|traditions|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8808" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1897" RevisionGUID="23672865-1519-4b42-ae0d-3f1c13d5a728" CreationDate="2016-12-13T13:26:49.477" UserId="3230" Comment="added source for 1st quote, cleaned up" Text="We know that they do, but we do not know how. Take a look here (2 Kings 19:35):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 36 Then the angel of the Lord went out and put to death a hundred and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eighty-five thousand in the Assyrian camp. When the people got up the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; next morning—there were all the dead bodies!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;185000 Assyrian slain by _one_ angel. But how? Sword? Mace? Magic? Thermonuclear weapon? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And obviously Jacob vs the angel (Genesis 3-24/25):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; breaking of the day.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as he wrestled with him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A simple touch and Jacob is beaten. But this is the extend of what the Bible says." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8809" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1897" RevisionGUID="23672865-1519-4b42-ae0d-3f1c13d5a728" CreationDate="2016-12-13T13:26:49.477" Comment="Proposed by 3230 approved by -1 edit id of 389" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8810" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1897" RevisionGUID="2f5daa29-0070-49f8-83ee-1261f2db0ca7" CreationDate="2016-12-13T13:26:49.477" UserId="2774" Comment="Correct reference not King but Isaiah" Text="We know that they do, but we do not know how. Take a look here (Isaiah 37:36-38):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 36 Then the angel of the Lord went out and put to death a hundred and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eighty-five thousand in the Assyrian camp. When the people got up the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; next morning—there were all the dead bodies!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;185000 Assyrian slain by _one_ angel. But how? Sword? Mace? Magic? Thermonuclear weapon? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And obviously Jacob vs the angel (Genesis 3-24/25):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; breaking of the day.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as he wrestled with him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A simple touch and Jacob is beaten. But this is the extend of what the Bible says." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8811" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1686" RevisionGUID="6bfdead3-dceb-4e65-a7b6-14ea0b0af7aa" CreationDate="2016-12-13T13:28:19.717" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|folklore|games|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8812" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2139" RevisionGUID="85217c62-856f-4dec-9070-b357f66c8491" CreationDate="2016-12-13T13:28:41.937" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|africa|christmas|traditions|games|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8813" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2140" RevisionGUID="8f9ad0d7-b729-4dc5-82b9-8f4220633a16" CreationDate="2016-12-13T14:08:57.170" UserId="57" Text="Moncure D. Conway references the tale in passing in the introduction to his “Demonology and Devil-lore”: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The fable of Thor’s attempt to drink up a small spring, and his failure because it was fed by the ocean, seems aimed at such efforts as mine. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a fuller version of the story? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8814" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2140" RevisionGUID="8f9ad0d7-b729-4dc5-82b9-8f4220633a16" CreationDate="2016-12-13T14:08:57.170" UserId="57" Text="What is the source of the fable of Thor’s attempt to drink up a small spring?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8815" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2140" RevisionGUID="8f9ad0d7-b729-4dc5-82b9-8f4220633a16" CreationDate="2016-12-13T14:08:57.170" UserId="57" Text="|norse|myth-identification|thor|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8816" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2140" RevisionGUID="18808b3b-7072-4ab3-ad95-4fa8f8f01941" CreationDate="2016-12-13T14:16:08.767" UserId="57" Comment="added 57 characters in body" Text="Moncure D. Conway references the tale in passing in the introduction to his “Demonology and Devil-lore”: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The fable of Thor’s attempt to drink up a small spring, and his failure because it was fed by the ocean, seems aimed at such efforts as mine. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do we know of a fuller version of the story? What prompted Thor to attempt to drink up a spring? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8817" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2141" RevisionGUID="95a1b513-75e8-4880-85c1-63ebff425b2e" CreationDate="2016-12-13T14:37:52.363" UserId="3236" Text="The simplest explanation would be that the Jesus story was based on the older Odin story, or that they were both based on an even older original story." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8818" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2142" RevisionGUID="4a49148c-d6b8-49be-837b-c4b6df1b4e72" CreationDate="2016-12-13T15:23:45.550" UserId="666" Text="This seems to be a somewhat distorted version of a story from *Gylfaginning*, in which Thor, Loki and Tjalvi and Röskva travels to [Útgarða-Loki][1], a jotun and sorceror, who presents Thor, Loki and Tjalvi with different challenges, among which is that Thor should empty a horn with mead. Thor makes an attempt, but ultimately fails. After several other failed tasks, and a night, when the travellers leave, Útgarða-Loki reveals the truth of what they have attempted, and points out how much less water there is in the ocean. He also says that he is so impressed by what especially Thor did that he never wants to have them as visitors again. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Atgar%C3%B0a-Loki" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8821" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2143" RevisionGUID="43b8b357-9f3a-4cfe-8168-0373d2791194" CreationDate="2016-12-13T18:33:41.747" UserId="201" Text="I love this story! According to good ol' Wiki, which is sourced, this story comes from an &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.heimskringla.no/wiki/Lokrur_I-IV&quot;&gt;Icelandic rímur cycle.&lt;/a&gt; It is also cited in the *Gylfaginning*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Your story and the rest of it are from the &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lokrur#Third_r.C3.ADma&quot;&gt;third and fourth&lt;/a&gt; rímas, emphasis mine:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;As Thor and his companions approach Útgarða-Loki's fotress they face a strong locked fortress gate (v. 3-6). Unable to open it, they manage to slip through the grating between the bars (v. 7). They go into the hall and Thor greets the king (v. 8-11). Útgarða-Loki welcomes them and asks them where they come from, and whether they excel at any game or sport (v. 11-14).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Loki offers to compete in eating and an opponent, Logi, is assigned to him (v. 15-16). They both eat meat ferociously, but Logi also swallows the knives and the bones and attempts to bite Loki (v. 17-20). Loki is deemed the loser and Útgarða-Loki asks for a better contestant (v. 21). Þjálfi offers to compete in running and suffers a humiliating defeat against Hugi (v. 22-27).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**Thor now wants to compete in drinking,** and Útgarða-Loki has a horn carried into the hall (v. 28-30). Útgarða-Loki says that the custom is to empty the horn in one go, but Thor drinks from it three times with little success (v. 31-36). Útgarða-Loki then asks Thor to lift his cat from the ground, but despite great effort, Thor can only get one of the cat's feet off the ground (v. 37-41). Útgarða-Loki asks him to get back into his seat and tells him that he has been greatly humiliated (v. 41-44).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Thor now offers to wrestle anyone who will challenge him (v. 2). Útgarða-Loki says he has a mother who once knew how to wrestle, though she is not in good health anymore (v. 3). The woman arrives, large and old, and starts wrestling with Thor (v. 4-5). Thor cannot resist her and falls to his knee (v. 5-8). The woman goes away, but Thor says he wants to go home to Ásgarðr (v. 9).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Útgarða-Loki says he will lead him away from the fortress and then explains to him that he has deceived him (v. 10-11). A cryptic verse explains that the bag of provisions was sealed with trickery (v. 12). When Thor threw his hammer at Skrímnir, revealed to be the same person as Útgarða-Loki, the blow was blocked by a mountain or it would have killed him (v. 13). Loki lost the eating contest to fire (v. 14). **The drinking horn had its end out in the sea and Thor's drinking from it has resulted in the tides** (v. 15-16). The cat which Thor tried to lift was actually Miðgarðsormr *[the serpent which encircles the world — LI]* and the woman he wrestled was Elli, old age (v. 17-18). Útgarða-Loki curses the Æsir and disappears (v. 19-20). The last verse of the cycle gives it the name Lokrur (v. 21).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8822" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2112" RevisionGUID="90bb42df-1905-4de5-bb05-66b343a9f423" CreationDate="2016-12-13T18:53:40.420" UserId="398" Comment="spelling" Text="Yes, and for future questions of this type, [Theoi](http://www.theoi.com/) is a great resource.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Depending on the source, he had three children plus the Erinyes. The latter are problematic, as Aeschylus' *Oresteia* presume their primordial, pre-Olympian existence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Still, the others are given as [Zagreus](http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/Zagreus.html) in a fragment in a tragedy of Aeschylus', [Melinoe](http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Melinoe.html) by Persephone in an Orphic hymn, and [Makaria](http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Makaria.html) in a Suidas entry.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zagreus was also said to be the son of Zeus and Persephone (as related in an Orphic hymn and then later authors). This is probably secondary, though, and doesn't really jibe with the very early *Hymn to Demeter*, where Persephone is a young maiden before she is taken away by Hades—when would Zeus have had a chance?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Melinoe was actually the child of Zeus, but Zeus had taken on the form of Hades, so take that as you will.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nothing contests Makaria's parentage, but the Suidas is very late (10th century AD, so well into the Middle Ages already) and often full of inaccuracies, so we have no idea how early or late or even correct the attribution is." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8823" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2144" RevisionGUID="969eda66-0627-45dd-a973-09bd5cfbc890" CreationDate="2016-12-13T19:24:05.293" UserId="57" Text="In the first chapter of “Demonology and Devil-lore”, Moncure Conway proposes that Loki's reminder to Odin in the Lokasenna suggests the two gods may have originated from the same primitive concept; that they once were the good and evil side of the same coin:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The intermediate processes by which the good and evil were detached, and advanced to separate personification, cannot always be traced, but the indications of their work are in most cases sufficiently clear.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Not less clear is the illustration supplied by Scandinavian mythology. In Sæmund’s Edda the evil-minded Loki says:—&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; _Odin! dost thou remember   &#xD;&#xA; When we in early days   &#xD;&#xA; Blended our blood together?_   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The two became detached very slowly; for their separation implied the crumbling away of a great religion, and its distribution into new forms; and a religion requires, relatively, as long to decay as it does to grow, as we who live under a crumbling religion have good reason to know." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8825" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1896" RevisionGUID="640c24b9-ae19-4751-80b0-2dbb43990457" CreationDate="2016-12-13T20:09:29.330" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="abrahamic religions is more accurate than judeo-christian" Text="Are angels ever depicted fighting in Abrahamic religious texts?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8826" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1896" RevisionGUID="640c24b9-ae19-4751-80b0-2dbb43990457" CreationDate="2016-12-13T20:09:29.330" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="abrahamic religions is more accurate than judeo-christian" Text="|abrahamic-religions|angels|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8827" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="371" RevisionGUID="2a31cd85-938c-4429-be85-10129f224fc9" CreationDate="2016-12-13T20:16:20.463" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="the judeo-christian tag is academically inaccurate, let's get rid of it" Text="According to the bible, Heaven is defended by an army of good angels known as the [Heavenly Host](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavenly_host). For example, Christian mythology from the [Book of Revelation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation) states that the Heavenly Host will take part in the [War in Heaven](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Heaven) and defeat the army of Satan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does God Himself command the Heavenly Host in combat? Or does God delegate the responsibility to an angelic commander? [Revelation 12](http://bible.org/netbible/index.htm?rev12.htm) says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 12:7 Then war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which seems to suggest that [Michael](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_%28archangel%29) is in command for at least that conflict. Is that the typical situation? Why doesn't God command his side in the war?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8828" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="371" RevisionGUID="2a31cd85-938c-4429-be85-10129f224fc9" CreationDate="2016-12-13T20:16:20.463" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="the judeo-christian tag is academically inaccurate, let's get rid of it" Text="|christianity|angels|bible|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8829" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="530" RevisionGUID="e1c094e0-cc12-4836-96f1-5e8eea9ebfdc" CreationDate="2016-12-13T20:34:39.970" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="&quot;judeo-christian&quot; -&gt; bible" Text="Did the sun stand still at around the same time in Toltec and Biblical traditions?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8830" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="530" RevisionGUID="e1c094e0-cc12-4836-96f1-5e8eea9ebfdc" CreationDate="2016-12-13T20:34:39.970" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="&quot;judeo-christian&quot; -&gt; bible" Text="|bible|mesoamerica|chronology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8834" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2145" RevisionGUID="13778859-886f-44d7-826c-b55771036002" CreationDate="2016-12-13T21:33:04.630" UserId="2892" Text="In his series, &quot;Song of Ice and Fire&quot;, George R.R. Martin re-imagines a War of the Roses era-Britain where the British Isle is greatly enlarged and the continent compressed.  He creates a history that mirrors the waves of historical migration (&quot;First Men&quot; for the Picts, and the &quot;Andals&quot; and the &quot;Rhoynar&quot; for the Angles and Saxons--Rhoyne is a combination of Rhine and Rhone.) He has a later invader, the Valyrians, take over rule of the island in similar fashion to the Normans under William the Conqueror.  The island is divided by a massive wall in roughly the same place as the [Antonine Wall](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonine_Wall).  In terms of the supernatural, he creates the &quot;Children of the Forest&quot;, who literally live under hills, as an analogue of the fairy folk. He also utilizes the undead as an adversary against mankind. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Is there any precedent for a mythology of the undead in the British Isles?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know a little about [Arawn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arawn) and the Norse [Draugr](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draugr), but haven't yet found any specific stories." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8835" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2145" RevisionGUID="13778859-886f-44d7-826c-b55771036002" CreationDate="2016-12-13T21:33:04.630" UserId="2892" Text="Revenants in mythology of the British Isles?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8836" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2145" RevisionGUID="13778859-886f-44d7-826c-b55771036002" CreationDate="2016-12-13T21:33:04.630" UserId="2892" Text="|norse|welsh|celtic|british|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8837" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2146" RevisionGUID="2dc3bbe0-5189-4b47-8664-4f511b9f90ab" CreationDate="2016-12-13T22:42:45.993" UserId="1241" Text="What are the origins of the Ethiopian Christmas day game of **Gena**?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is Ethiopian tradition that the country was converted to Christianity during the time of the Apostles. We see in [Acts 8: 26-40][1] that the Apostle Philip baptized a prominent [Ethiopian eunuch][2], who in turn was believed to have evangelized his home country of Ethiopia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;We believe that Ethiopia turned to Christianity during the time of the Apostles, certainly we can prove it came at the start of the 4th century when the cross of Christ appeared in Axum . This means that Ethiopia could have celebrated Christmas from the beginning, meaning that it was an age old custom.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;It is believed that Ethiopia turned to Christianity during the time of Emperor Ezana because we see coins of Ezana with the moon and sun where he used to worship the gods that came from Arabia, but we also saw coins of Ezana with the cross, meaning that he converted Ethiopia to Christianity. - [Professor Richard Pankhurst][3] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How is Christmas celebrated in Ethiopia?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The celebration of Ethiopian Christmas is marked by various activities such as horse racing   and authentic folk dancing. At Lalibela, Genna is celebrated in very attractive ways due to the birth date of King Lalibela being on a similar day. In the rural areas a popular game which **looks like European Hockey** but is typically Ethiopian is conducted between two youth teams. The game is named after the festival and is called &quot;Yegena Chewata&quot;. - [Genna or Ethiopian Christmas][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And now for the origins of the game.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The game, which looks a little bit similar to hockey, has been played for centuries, according to ancient manuscripts. The exact time of its origin is, however, not known.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Ye-gena chewata is played by using a **crude hockey stick**, Ã¢â‚¬ËœGenaÃ¢â‚¬â„¢, and some kind of a **small wooden ball**, Ã¢â‚¬ËœenkuraÃ¢â‚¬â„¢. Men and young boys participate in the game. But it is only rarely that the rivalry can be fierce.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;In relation to the origin of the game, there are different legends which have been related from one generation to another. Solomon Getachew, vice president of Cultural Sports and Festival bureau, says that when Jesus Christ was born, the news was heard all over the world and when the shepherds heard it they started jumping with joy and throwing things around and thatÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s how the game was started.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;The other myth which seems horrific is that when the Ã¢â‚¬ËœSebasegelsÃ¢â‚¬â„¢,Ã‚Â  the three Melchior King of Arabia, Caspar the King of Tarsus and Balthazar King of Ethiopia, led by the star, found out that Jesus was born, on their journey back from Bethelhem, the birthplace of Jesus Christ, they found a man who denied the birth of the Savior. Disappointed by his denial, they beheaded the man and played with his head. - [Ethiopia Cultural Sports: Reviving Ye Gena Chewata][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Ethiopian Christmas][6]][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ethiopians playing their Traditional Christmas game of Gena.][7]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is a nice YouTube video in English on the subject: [Genna | Ancient Ethiopian Sport on Trans World Sport (YouTube).][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%208%3A26-40&amp;version=ESV&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_eunuch&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://nazret.com/blog/index.php/2007/01/08/ethiopia_celebrating_age_old_christmas&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.ethiopiauncovered.com/specialevents/gennaethiopianchristmas/default.aspx&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.ethiosports.com/2011/01/08/ethiopia-cultural-sports-reviving-ye-gena-chewata/&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/y3xtO.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.borkena.com/2014/01/07/ethiopian-christmas/&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOttBUvRcBU" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8839" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2147" RevisionGUID="0c816760-39ee-411c-9b54-d4592fd09e3b" CreationDate="2016-12-13T23:11:16.910" UserId="57" Text="I'm not aware of a story that could possibly be a basis for the white walkers, but I do know of a zombie story that appears in the second branch of the Mabinogi, the tale of Branwen ferch Llŷr. A key element of the tale is the Pair Dadeni, a magical cauldron able to revive the dead:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;And I will enhance the atonement,&quot; said Bendigeid Vran, &quot;for I will give unto thee a cauldron, the property of which is, that if one of thy men be slain to-day, and be cast therein, to-morrow he will be as well as ever he was at the best, except that he will not regain his speech.&quot; And thereupon he gave him great thanks, and very joyful was he for that cause.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Mabinogion, translated by Lady Charlotte Guest&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eventually, the cauldron is gifted to Matholwch, King of Ireland and Branwen's husband. When Bendigeidfran sails to Ireland to rescue Branwen from her husband's cruelty, in the main confrontation of the story, the Irish used the cauldron to replenish their ranks: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then the Irish kindled a fire under the cauldron of renovation, and they cast the dead bodies into the cauldron until it was full, and the next day they came forth fighting-men as good as before, except that they were not able to speak. &#xD;&#xA; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8840" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2147" RevisionGUID="e062eedb-e90f-4995-8669-e40202e4c0a3" CreationDate="2016-12-13T23:16:32.677" UserId="57" Comment="added 5 characters in body" Text="I'm not aware of a story that could possibly be a basis for the white walkers, but it could be argued that a zombie story exists in the second branch of the Mabinogi, the tale of Branwen ferch Llŷr. A key element of the tale is the [Pair Dadeni][1], a magical cauldron able to revive the dead:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;And I will enhance the atonement,&quot; said Bendigeid Vran, &quot;for I will give unto thee a cauldron, the property of which is, that if one of thy men be slain to-day, and be cast therein, to-morrow he will be as well as ever he was at the best, except that he will not regain his speech.&quot; And thereupon he gave him great thanks, and very joyful was he for that cause.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Mabinogion, translated by Lady Charlotte Guest&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eventually, the cauldron is gifted to Matholwch, King of Ireland and Branwen's husband. When Bendigeidfran sails to Ireland to rescue Branwen from her husband's cruelty, in the main confrontation of the story, the Irish use the cauldron to replenish their ranks: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then the Irish kindled a fire under the cauldron of renovation, and they cast the dead bodies into the cauldron until it was full, and the next day they came forth fighting-men as good as before, except that they were not able to speak. &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pair_Dadeni" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8841" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2139" RevisionGUID="bbac442e-8c0b-4d93-a464-bbbe79726548" CreationDate="2016-12-13T23:21:12.667" UserId="1241" Comment="Added two words for clarity." Text="Traditionally, people in Ethiopia play gena - a rugby/field hockey like game - on Christmas day. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where does this tradition come from?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8842" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2139" RevisionGUID="bbac442e-8c0b-4d93-a464-bbbe79726548" CreationDate="2016-12-13T23:21:12.667" Comment="Proposed by 1241 approved by 57 edit id of 391" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8843" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="18" RevisionGUID="60e6b889-ceef-438e-884b-e08ed092ef41" CreationDate="2016-12-13T23:29:06.683" UserId="-1" Comment="There was a little spelling mistake" Text="Most Egyptian gods have animal heads. Why is that?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8844" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="18" RevisionGUID="60e6b889-ceef-438e-884b-e08ed092ef41" CreationDate="2016-12-13T23:29:06.683" Comment="Proposed by anonymous approved by 62, 967 edit id of 390" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8850" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2142" RevisionGUID="7311a8f2-b136-4121-9445-b16abb42fa42" CreationDate="2016-12-14T07:02:36.473" UserId="666" Comment="Remove small mistake (I have apparantly been reading to much of Madsen's Valhalla comic)" Text="This seems to be a somewhat distorted version of a story from *Gylfaginning*, in which Thor, Loki and Tjalvi travels to [Útgarða-Loki][1], a jotun and sorceror, who presents Thor, Loki and Tjalvi with different challenges, among which is that Thor should empty a horn with mead. Thor makes an attempt, but ultimately fails. After several other failed tasks, and a night, when the travellers leave, Útgarða-Loki reveals the truth of what they have attempted, and points out how much less water there is in the ocean. He also says that he is so impressed by what especially Thor did that he never wants to have them as visitors again. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Atgar%C3%B0a-Loki" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8858" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2148" RevisionGUID="a4544225-8bc6-485f-a432-748b0fd89f38" CreationDate="2016-12-14T08:40:55.337" UserId="3230" Text="The site [Poinsettia Facts](http://extension.illinois.edu/poinsettia/facts.cfm) associates the flower with Christmas: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - No flower says Christmas like the beautiful poinsettia. Learn a few facts about this traditional Christmas plant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Today the plant is known in Mexico and Guatemala as &quot;&quot;La Flor de la Nochebuena&quot; (Flower of the Holy Night, or Christmas Eve).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the origin of this connection?  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8859" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2148" RevisionGUID="a4544225-8bc6-485f-a432-748b0fd89f38" CreationDate="2016-12-14T08:40:55.337" UserId="3230" Text="Why are poinsettias associated with Christmas?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8860" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2148" RevisionGUID="a4544225-8bc6-485f-a432-748b0fd89f38" CreationDate="2016-12-14T08:40:55.337" UserId="3230" Text="|christmas|traditions|plants|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8862" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2146" RevisionGUID="d35c6387-dfaf-4b4b-a655-983467d85845" CreationDate="2016-12-14T09:11:07.857" UserId="111" Comment="cleaned up encoding issues" Text="What are the origins of the Ethiopian Christmas day game of **Gena**?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is Ethiopian tradition that the country was converted to Christianity during the time of the Apostles. We see in [Acts 8: 26-40][1] that the Apostle Philip baptized a prominent [Ethiopian eunuch][2], who in turn was believed to have evangelized his home country of Ethiopia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;We believe that Ethiopia turned to Christianity during the time of the Apostles, certainly we can prove it came at the start of the 4th century when the cross of Christ appeared in Axum . This means that Ethiopia could have celebrated Christmas from the beginning, meaning that it was an age old custom.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;It is believed that Ethiopia turned to Christianity during the time of Emperor Ezana because we see coins of Ezana with the moon and sun where he used to worship the gods that came from Arabia, but we also saw coins of Ezana with the cross, meaning that he converted Ethiopia to Christianity. - [Professor Richard Pankhurst][3] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How is Christmas celebrated in Ethiopia?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The celebration of Ethiopian Christmas is marked by various activities such as horse racing   and authentic folk dancing. At Lalibela, Genna is celebrated in very attractive ways due to the birth date of King Lalibela being on a similar day. In the rural areas a popular game which **looks like European Hockey** but is typically Ethiopian is conducted between two youth teams. The game is named after the festival and is called &quot;Yegena Chewata&quot;. - [Genna or Ethiopian Christmas][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And now for the origins of the game.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The game, which looks a little bit similar to hockey, has been played for centuries, according to ancient manuscripts. The exact time of its origin is, however, not known.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Ye-gena chewata is played by using a **crude hockey stick**, &quot;Gena&quot;, and some kind of a **small wooden ball**, &quot;enkura&quot;. Men and young boys participate in the game. But it is only rarely that the rivalry can be fierce.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;In relation to the origin of the game, there are different legends which have been related from one generation to another. Solomon Getachew, vice president of Cultural Sports and Festival bureau, says that when Jesus Christ was born, the news was heard all over the world and when the shepherds heard it they started jumping with joy and throwing things around and that's how the game was started.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;The other myth which seems horrific is that when the &quot;Sebasegels&quot;, the three Melchior King of Arabia, Caspar the King of Tarsus and Balthazar King of Ethiopia, led by the star, found out that Jesus was born, on their journey back from Bethelhem, the birthplace of Jesus Christ, they found a man who denied the birth of the Savior. Disappointed by his denial, they beheaded the man and played with his head. - [Ethiopia Cultural Sports: Reviving Ye Gena Chewata][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Ethiopian Christmas][6]][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ethiopians playing their Traditional Christmas game of Gena.][7]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is a nice YouTube video in English on the subject: [Genna | Ancient Ethiopian Sport on Trans World Sport (YouTube).][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%208%3A26-40&amp;version=ESV&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_eunuch&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://nazret.com/blog/index.php/2007/01/08/ethiopia_celebrating_age_old_christmas&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.ethiopiauncovered.com/specialevents/gennaethiopianchristmas/default.aspx&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.ethiosports.com/2011/01/08/ethiopia-cultural-sports-reviving-ye-gena-chewata/&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/y3xtO.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.borkena.com/2014/01/07/ethiopian-christmas/&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOttBUvRcBU" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8864" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2149" RevisionGUID="a372e4ec-fd83-46fe-90ff-31feee59518b" CreationDate="2016-12-14T13:02:28.163" UserId="3244" Text="It was during the middle of the war." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8865" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2149" RevisionGUID="f517c814-07eb-41ab-9ebd-7d6623bf8055" CreationDate="2016-12-14T13:41:00.707" UserId="3244" Comment="Changed wrong information." Text="It was during the prelude of the war." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8866" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2149" RevisionGUID="21eea88e-0f6a-441c-8705-d8242fb64cc8" CreationDate="2016-12-14T13:45:31.453" UserId="398" Comment="added 73 characters in body" Text="It was during the prelude of the war, per [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karna#Prelude_to_war).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8867" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2149" RevisionGUID="49490ddb-530f-4075-9e04-cfb9e8cae440" CreationDate="2016-12-14T13:46:24.957" UserId="3244" Comment="added 278 characters in body; added 31 characters in body" Text="It was during the prelude of the war. Indra was scared that since Karna was invincible with his armor, he would vanquish Arjuna. So, to protect Arjuna, he took the form of a Brahmin while Karna was worshipping Surya (Since he never refused charity at that time) and asked for his armor and earrings. Karna gave them to him at once, cutting them from his skin. Indra gave his weapon to Karna in return, for a single use." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8868" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2148" RevisionGUID="5a3ae4bc-2cd9-48ba-bfa5-5e20dfbe5292" CreationDate="2016-12-14T14:11:57.770" UserId="1241" Comment="Added one tag." Text="|origins|christmas|traditions|plants|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8869" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2148" RevisionGUID="5a3ae4bc-2cd9-48ba-bfa5-5e20dfbe5292" CreationDate="2016-12-14T14:11:57.770" Comment="Proposed by 1241 approved by 967, 2774 edit id of 392" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8871" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2150" RevisionGUID="933443f5-bdf9-4292-ae70-6f4714afa1a0" CreationDate="2016-12-14T15:13:25.250" UserDisplayName="user3198" Text="If your question is &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; how probable is it that the so-called World Oak was originally located at this place?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In my opinion: 85%; some people might argue that the tree was originally only a metaphor, but if the [mount Olympus][1] is literally a mountain, why shouldn't the oak be?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*also the Pushkin's poem is much better in its original language and I never knew that the oak in the poem is reffering to a mythological tree.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Olympus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8872" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2034" RevisionGUID="9cf910bb-1fbf-458c-959e-7300c01eb6b4" CreationDate="2016-12-14T15:39:13.100" UserDisplayName="user3198" Comment="spelling: the Russian writer is Pushkin. Added the link to the poem in English" Text="In Indo-European mythology, particular, in Slavic, Baltic and Germanic mythologies there is so-called World Tree, more precisely, World Oak that plays sacred role and connects underworld to heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is mentioned in Pushkin's poem [&quot;Ruslan and Ludmila&quot;][1] which starts &quot;At Lukomorie there is an oak green, a golden chain is on that oak...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I looked up what Lukomorie is. Literally it means &quot;a sea arc, bow&quot;. Russian Wikipedia describes it as &quot;in Slavic mythology, a holy place at the edge of universe, where the World Tree grows&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [The Tale of Igor's Campaign][2] describing Prince Igor's campaign of 1185 uses this word to refer to the area near North-Western shore of the Azov sea, as do other sources. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is a map that labels the tribe occupying the region as &quot;Lukomorie Polovtsi&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A Google map of the area indeed shows bow-like formations:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But what is more interesting, is where the sea reached formerly. In fact, formerly the sea occupied the arc-shaped gulf (now called Milk Liman) reaching beyond the modern city of Melitopol.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][5]][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lets look even closer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][6]][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a place that was formerly situated at the very end of the bow-shaped gulf, at the very shore of the sea.&#xD;&#xA;The bright spot on the photo is the [archeological site Kamennaya Mogila][7]. The place was venerated as a holy site at least from 20th century BC to 12th century AD (possibly, even 17th century), well after the adoption of Christianity by the Kievan Rus. Some researchers (Rossokha) think it was venerated since the era of Proto-Indo-European unity, namely, [Sredny Stog culture][8] This makes it the longest continuously venerated pagan holy site. The innards of the site are inscribed with a non-deciphered ancient language.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][9]][9]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The site is located at the place of ancient estuary of the river, called by Herodotus as Γέρρος, which a Scythian name, that comes from a Sanskrit-related language where it was called [Gorasa][10] which literally means &quot;milk&quot;, and even in Modern Russian it is called &quot;Milk river&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, I wonder, how probable it is that the so-called World Oak was originally located at this place.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][11]][11]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://russian-crafts.com/tales/rus_lud.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tale_of_Igor%27s_Campaign&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/KqHMW.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/HCkqS.png&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://storage7.static.itmages.ru/i/16/1012/h_1476248341_4164123_30eef8c695.png&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/NH0bE.png&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamyana_Mohyla&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sredny_Stog_culture&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/u7VPs.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=gorasa&amp;direction=SE&amp;script=HK&amp;link=yes&amp;beginning=&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://discover-ukraine.info/uploads/i/i/4f282d36bdb9c6.87610163.185.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8873" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2034" RevisionGUID="9cf910bb-1fbf-458c-959e-7300c01eb6b4" CreationDate="2016-12-14T15:39:13.100" Comment="Proposed by 3198 approved by 111, 398 edit id of 393" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8874" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="983" RevisionGUID="8fed46ca-e923-43c3-a80f-12f72fe69f89" CreationDate="2016-12-14T16:56:57.703" UserId="467" Comment="added 5 characters in body" Text="The myths themselves are not going to give a technical explanation of this, so we are setting off on the wrong foot if we are seeking an answer at such a level, which is that of our modern technological mind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An initial observation to make is that the myth does not always include a shield, as Yannis notes in the case of Hesiod's account. We can also turn to the iconography, which likewise also does not necessarily portray a shield. See, e.g., the metope from Salinas ca. 540 B.C. (at the Museo Nazionale Archeologico in Palermo, Italy; in Morford &amp; Lenardon's *Classical Mythology* 8th ed., p. 552) and the black-figure jug by Amasis, Attic, 6th cen. BCE (in Neumann, *Consciousness* (below), illustration 25) both showing Perseus killing her while simply averting his gaze. For the Greeks, averting the gaze and looking at her reflection in the shield/mirror were obviously equivalent. Her power was either nullified or greatly diminished when looked at in reflection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I also don't think the eyes were crucial. I'm not aware of any source that stresses her eyes. Rather, they focus on her whole face (Ovid, *Metamorphosis* 4:783) or overall appearance, as in the passage from Apollodoris in the answer above. We can't ignore her protruding tongue, tusks, or snakes for hair, since they are all essential to her character and mythological meaning. That's why they are there. And that's why Perseus had to look at the shield even though she was sleeping (presumably her eyes were closed).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we go into the underlying psychological aspects of the myth (as we should with most myths), Perseus, like the typical hero, is in the process of fully realizing his ego consciousness, while this monster represents the all-consuming Terrible Mother of the unconscious seeking to suck him back into there and destroy his nascent ego consciousness. To confront her directly is too dangerous, so only averting the gaze or looking at her indirectly through the reflection will enable him to succeed. In the versions where the &quot;bronze&quot; shield/mirror appears, that is a solar/light symbol of the ego that not only enables him to see a diminished Medusa, but which as such also serves as a guide and beacon to him to keep him on course. Here it is also relevant that the Greeks also stressed the details of his escape. When Perseus kills the Medusa, the winged horse Perseus appears out of her (representing the ego that has escaped her, a parallel with Perseus himself), which Perseus rides while being pursued by Medusa's sisters. His winged sandals, invisibility helmet, and hiding-wallet also play a figurative role, for which he has to thank Athena, goddess of wisdom (and so of consciousness). See Edward Edinger, *The Eternal Drama: The Inner Meaning of Greek Mythology,* pp. 4, 83; Erich Neumann, *The Great Mother,* p. 166; Erich Neumann, *The Origins and History of Consciousness,* pp. 87, 178, 214-16.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I hope this helps.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8876" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2085" RevisionGUID="69e0dec2-ee93-47c3-98a6-6cc0b2765e4e" CreationDate="2016-12-14T18:11:47.450" UserId="2892" Comment="Added a link to axis mundi " Text="It would be hard to know definitively if this was due Christian influence on Odin's narrative b/c we don't have pre-Christian textual sources for Odin's.  (i.e. This material was first recorded about 1000 years ago, long after the introduction of Christianity in Europe.)  Also, there is evidence of [hanging ordeals practiced by Native Americans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandan#Religion) which suggests that this type of ritual occurs independently.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Archetypes and symbols may provide some insight. The cross, or &quot;[crux](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/crux)&quot; is a gateway between worlds for Jesus.  Yggdrasil, the &quot;world tree&quot;, is quite literally a connector of worlds. The concept is also known as the &quot;[axis mundi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_mundi)&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3 is magic number across many cultures, so while that connection suggests Christian influence, it is not a foregone conclusion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Piercing with the spear, however, is quite specific and not so universal in my estimation, so that might very well be a Christian influence. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With all that said, I don't think there's any way to know for sure. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8877" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="2117" RevisionGUID="e2205dcb-6d88-4de5-bf78-d65544166af0" CreationDate="2016-12-14T18:38:25.367" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="32" />
  <row Id="8879" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2151" RevisionGUID="17517175-f376-444c-a779-76ec6dc859e6" CreationDate="2016-12-14T19:09:44.107" UserId="183" Text="#Abhartach (Ireland)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Irish folklore speaks of [Abhartach](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abhartach), a dwarf who rose from the dead multiple times after being slain. In [*The Origin and History of Irish Names of Places*](https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Origin_and_History_of_Irish_Names_of.html?id=OowJAAAAIAAJ) (c. 1871), Patrick Weston Joyce relates the myth:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This dwarf was a magician, and a dreadful tyrant, and after having perpetrated great cruelties on the people he was at last vanquished and slain by a neighbouring chieftain; some say by Fionn Mac Cumhail. He was buried in a standing posture, but the very next day he appeared in his old haunts, more cruel and vigorous than ever. And the chief slew him a second time and buried him as before, but again he escaped from the grave, and spread terror through the whole country. The chief then consulted a druid, and according to his directions, he slew the dwarf a third time, and buried him in the same place, with his head downwards; which subdued his magical power, so that he never again appeared on earth. The laght raised over the dwarf is still there, and you may hear the legend with much detail from the natives of the place, one of whom told it to me.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Abhartach has been compared to Dracula many times over; I am not aware of any writings by Bram Stoker that confirm this hypothesis. My understanding is that  vampire legends stem primarily from the folklore of Eastern Europe, but it's entirely possible that Abhartach could have contributed to *Dracula*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#Knockers (Cornwall and Ireland)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Knockers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knocker_(folklore)) - also known as tommyknockers - are mine spirits originating from Cornwall and Ireland. While legends differ, the consensus is that they are mischievous creatures, who can help or harm miners, especially before cave-ins or collapses. [Some believed them to be spirits of dead miners](https://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/res/Education_in_BLM/Learning_Landscapes/For_Kids/History_Mystery/hm3/the_tommyknockers.html), come back to life as small, leprechaun-like creatures. The connection to what you're looking for is admittedly vague, but I thought they were worth including." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8882" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2152" RevisionGUID="286a8ca6-e778-4678-8b21-a7ca9335626b" CreationDate="2016-12-14T21:26:45.787" UserId="3248" Text="My answer is that Hyperion got the west, Lapetos got the east, Koios got the north and Krios got the south. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kronos (lord of time) offered each of these brothers a corner of the earth in extange of helping him capture their father, who was the king of the sky. They do this and earn their prizes of the four corners of the earth, as show above." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8883" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2153" RevisionGUID="cbe5175b-55f0-41aa-a9a2-df0932a629af" CreationDate="2016-12-15T01:05:50.537" UserId="3234" Text="As Hinduism is a living culture, its mythology is not just in texts but in the minds of the people, and there are various folk stories, family traditions, and even half-remembered distortions in memory, none of which I wish to discount. Perhaps &quot;during the prelude to war&quot;, as Wikipedia claims citing some random book, seems the &quot;logical&quot; place to some, and no doubt that's what has been depicted in many movies and the like too.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But I can tell you what the _Mahābhārata_ says. In the Mahābhārata, the narration of this incident is found near at the end of Book 3 (Vana Parva), before Book 4 (Virāṭa Parva). The incident itself occurs after the Pāṇḍavas' stipulated 12th year in exile and before their 13th year incognito — **a full year before the war**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here are some relevant passages from K. M. Ganguly's translation. [Book 3, Section 298](http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03298.htm):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; After twelve years (of their exile) had passed away and the thirteenth year had set in, Sakra [Indra], ever friendly to the sons of Pandu, resolved to beg of Karna (his ear-rings). And, O mighty monarch, ascertaining this intention of the great chief of the celestials about (Karna's) ear-rings, Surya, having effulgence for his wealth, went unto Karna.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And so on. After a few more sections of back-and-forth between Surya and Karna, and sections that relate Karna's birth and so on, the actual incident occurs in [Section 307–308](http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03307.htm):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And when, O foremost of monarchs, Karna after rising from the water, used at mid-day to worship the effulgent Surya with joined hands, the Brahmanas used to solicit him for wealth. And at that time there was nothing that he would not give away to the twice-born ones. And Indra, assuming the guise of a Brahmana, appeared before him (at such a time) and said, 'Give me!' And thereupon Radha's son replied unto him, 'Thou art welcome!'&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And [Indra asks him](http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03308.htm); there's a bit of bargaining, and finally the incident:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hearing these words of Indra, Karna was filled with delight and seeing that his purpose was about to be accomplished he approached Vasava, and intent upon obtaining a dart incapable of being baffled, he addressed Indra, saying, 'Do thou, O Vasava, in exchange for my coat of mail and ear-rings, give me a dart incapable of being baffled, and competent to destroy hosts of enemies when arrayed in order of battle!' […] Thereupon, O king, taking the blazing dart, Karna began to peel off his natural mail. And beholding Karna cutting his own body, the entire host of celestials and men and Danavas set up a leonine roar. And Karna betrayed no contortions of face while peeling his mail. And beholding that hero among men thus cutting his body with an weapon, smiling ever and anon, celestial kettle-drums began to be played upon and celestial flowers began to be showered on him. And Karna cutting off the excellent mail from his person, gave it to Vasava, still dripping. And cutting off his ear-rings also from off his ears, he made them over to Indra. And it is for this fact that he came to be called Karna.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A second confirmation of the &quot;when&quot; in this question is provided short after:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Janamejaya said, &quot;When were those heroes, the sons of Pandu, at that time? And from whom did they hear this welcome news? And what also did they do, when the twelfth year of their exile passed away? Do thou, O illustrious one, tell me all this!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Vaisampayana said, &quot;Having defeated the chief of the Saindhavas, and rescued Krishna, and having outlived the entire term of their painful exile in the woods, and having listened to the ancient stories about gods and Rishis recited by Markandeya, those heroes among men returned from their asylum in Kamyaka to the sacred Dwaitavana, […]&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Critical Edition of the Mahābhārata, compiled by the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, this passage (Book 3, section 308 in Ganguli's translation) occurs [at 3.294](http://bombay.indology.info/mahabharata/text/UR/MBh03.txt). (You need a bit of Sanskrit to verify for yourself.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8884" PostHistoryTypeId="11" PostId="2128" RevisionGUID="807544c7-2c6e-4374-baab-c2fcbfb8dd4b" CreationDate="2016-12-15T05:08:27.837" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;C. M. Weimer&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:967,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;bleh&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:111,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;plannapus&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:666,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;andejons&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:62,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Hamlet&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="8885" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2130" RevisionGUID="9a3be2bd-09c3-4198-8638-f843246dac64" CreationDate="2016-12-15T08:04:38.020" UserId="2774" Comment="Correct last link" Text="Well, from what I remember, it was because of the winter solstice, and getting new followers. That's what I remember....&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The beginning of the article I'm about to talk about, mentions saturnalia, a roman feast to the god Saturn.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then, there's Sol Invictus and Mithras, which was a feast by Roman Emperor Aurelian.  The Mithraists (Mithras) are linked because they believed Mithras, and sol were the same God, just with different forms. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The feast of Sol Invictus was the attempt by the Roman emperor&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aurelian to reform the cult of Sol, the Roman sun god, and and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reintroduce it to his people, inaugurating Sol's temple and holding&#xD;&#xA;&gt; games for the first time in A.D. 274. Not only was this festival not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; annual, it also cannot be historically documented as having been&#xD;&#xA;&gt; established on December 25 by Aurelian (cf. Steven HijMans, Sol&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Invictus, The Winter Solstice, and the Origins of Christmas, Mouseion,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Series III, vol. 3, pp. 377-398).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to inscriptions on candle votives and other ancient works of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; art, there is a link between Mithras and Sol Invictus. In some cases&#xD;&#xA;&gt; it appears the Mithraists believed that Mithras and Sol were two&#xD;&#xA;&gt; different manifestations of the same god. In others they appear to be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; two gods united as one. These connections are difficult to understand&#xD;&#xA;&gt; given our limited knowledge of the Mithraic belief system, but they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; are important because they help to explain why skeptics claim the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; birthday of Mithras was celebrated on December 25.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another Christian mentioned records that Pope Gregory the great, told St. Augustine of Canterbury to co-opt pagan festivals, and sacred space, and make them Christian, so that supports what I remember.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At least that's what was mentioned, though, mentions from other records show that people from that time, actually wanted to distance themselves from pagans. Here's the exact quote from the person I mentioned.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; #2  Michael Paul - Crook, Colorado &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There doesn't have to be a pagan holiday that Christmas or other Christian feast days were intentionally replacing (though we know that Pope Gregory the Great told St. Augustine of Canterbury to co-opt pagan festivals and sacred space and make them Christian, so this practice did take place).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For one thing, Romans had a holiday about every three days, so every saints day, or event in the life of Christ would likely fall close to a Roman holiday and was not necessarily intentionally placed on that date to coopt a pagan festival. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Secondly, St. John Chrysostom gave a homily on Christmas (in fact, five of his Christmas sermons survive)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; about 386 AD (Migne, Patriologus Graecae, vol. 49, cols. 351-362, esp.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Section 5, col. 357) in which, by looking at the Gospel of Luke, he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was able to argue that Christ was born in late December; he didn’t&#xD;&#xA;&gt; argue that it was merely an effort to replace a Roman or pagan&#xD;&#xA;&gt; festival. He argued that if Zachary was serving in the Temple &quot;and all&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the multitude of the people was praying without&quot; (Lk 1:10), it must be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the greatest Jewish Feast of Tabernacles, which occurs in late&#xD;&#xA;&gt; September or early October. Zachary returned home, Elizabeth conceived&#xD;&#xA;&gt; soon thereafter, and the Angel Gabriel appeared to Mary while&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Elizabeth was “in her sixth month” (not after six months), which would&#xD;&#xA;&gt; be late March, and Jesus was born nine months after that, in late&#xD;&#xA;&gt; December. So Christmas doesn’t have to be a coopted pagan festival.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; December 19, 2013 at 8:13 pm PST&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; Another reason for Dec. 25, is because it's mentioned that Dec. 25, is nine months from March 25, the time they believed that the world was created on.  Even though it's mentioned in previous quote, humor me. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; #16  Charles Jackson - Arlington, Texas&#xD;&#xA;Dec 25th is 9 months from March 25 and March 25th is 6 months from Oct 25th. October 25th in the Jewish year of 3760 was the Day of Atonement. As you know, the Day of Atonement is the one day of the year the High Priest goes into the Temple to light incense, in atonement for his sins and sins of the Jews.&#xD;&#xA;The year 3760 was the year Zechariah was chosen by lot to go into the Holy of Holies. There he was visited by the angel Gabriel and told his barren wife would have a child.&#xD;&#xA;That day correlates to Oct 25 th Gregorian calendar. Six months from that time Gabriel visited Mary and headed to the hill country to visit Elizabeth. Count 9 months from 25 March and you have 25 Dec.&#xD;&#xA;So in a sense you can say Christmas can be determined from Luke and Deuteronomy. 3760 + 2015=5775 which is the Jewish year we are in.&#xD;&#xA;January 1, 2015 at 11:25 am PST&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another person mentions that Dec. 25 is the day Jesus died, and that Christmas is a mockery to him, here's his quote.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; #12  mar castro - Dublin, California&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dictionary.com is a modern translation of Christianity. They disguised the true meaning. Read the book written by Catholic Church.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; If you are an honest, sincere and discerning Christian, please read&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on; if not, you might as well stop right here. The World Book&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Encyclopedia defines &quot;Christmas&quot; as follows: &quot;The word Christmas comes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from &quot;Cristes Maesse&quot;, an early English phrase that means &quot;Mass of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Christ.&quot; (1) It is interesting to note that the word &quot;Mass&quot;, as used&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by the Roman Catholics, has traditionally been rejected by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; so-called Protestants, such as Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Presbyterians, Pentecostals and so on. The word &quot;Mass&quot; is strictly a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Catholic word and thus, so is &quot;Christ-Mass.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; As previously stated, the word &quot;Mass&quot; in religious usage means a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;death sacrifice.&quot; The impact of this fact is horrifying and shocking;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for when the millions of people are saying, &quot;Merry Christmas&quot;, they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; are literally saying &quot;Merry death of Christ!&quot; Furthermore, when the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fat man in the red suit laughs boisterously and says, &quot;Ho ho ho, Merry&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Christmas&quot;, he is mocking and laughing at the suffering and bleeding&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Saviour, who died for our sins. He does this while parents place their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; little children into his waiting arms to hear his false promises of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gifts that he says he will give them. Consider what you are saying&#xD;&#xA;&gt; when you say &quot;Merry Christmas.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; December 11, 2014 at 5:06 pm PST&#xD;&#xA;&gt; #13  mar castro - Dublin, California My references:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Christmas Chist = Jesus Chirst Mas - death sacrifice&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 01. World Book Encyclopedia, vol.3, p. 408, 1986 ed., World Book Inc., Chicago, IL&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 02. The Catholic Encyclopedia, R.C. Broderick, 1975 ed., Nihil Obstat, Richard J. Sklba, Censor Librorum. Imprimatur, Archbishop William E.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cousins, Milwaukee, WI.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 03. The Mass In Slow Motion, Ronald Knox, 1948, Sheed &amp; Ward, Inc., New York, NY. Nihil Obstat, E.C. Messenger, Censor Deputatus.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Imprimatur, E. Morrogh Bernard, Vic. Gen.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; December 12, 2014 at 5:58 pm PST&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's the URL, for the website that I quoted on.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://www.catholic.com/blog/jon-sorensen/why-december-25&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the symbols, like mistletoes, here you go.&#xD;&#xA;The informations a plenty, so it would behoove me to just give you the link.&#xD;&#xA;It's a lot to read, and I found it quite interesting honestly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://www.celebratingholidays.com/?page_id=1491&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;P.S. What's interesting, is that the mention I found relating to Christmas, is actually about sol.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; What is the TRUE ORIGIN of Christmas? Where did it come from? Did you&#xD;&#xA;&gt; know Yeshua the Messiah was born nowhere NEAR December 25, but that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was the &quot;birth day&quot; of the sun- god, &quot;Sol Invictus&quot; or &quot;Mithras&quot;? Did&#xD;&#xA;&gt; you know December 25 was the concluding day of the pagan winter&#xD;&#xA;&gt; festival called the &quot;Saturnalia&quot;? Where did &quot;Santa Claus&quot; come from?&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The &quot;Christmas tree&quot;? How did this pagan feast become connected with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Christianity&quot;? Here is an amazing &quot;whale of a tale&quot;!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is from, [http://www.hope-of-israel.org/cmas1.html][1]&#xD;&#xA;I'm not able to put three links, sorry, and also it's very opinionated.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.hope-of-israel.org/cmas1.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8886" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1292" RevisionGUID="c619b5f4-ef41-45da-ba29-e072527e2ab1" CreationDate="2016-12-15T08:33:43.960" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|traditions|plants|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8889" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2156" RevisionGUID="fca22fef-8bed-4264-a1d0-49c7626d4b14" CreationDate="2016-12-15T09:34:43.517" UserDisplayName="user3198" Text="that depends: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;if you take the realms as parts of the earth (as some scholars do) some realms were as big as today's Germany, some about the size of Denmark ([page 14][1]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;a more mythologycal answere would be [the realms][2] were not only different sizes but also wildly differed in shape.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.redicecreations.com/files/The-Prose-Edda.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/GKEH7.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8891" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2157" RevisionGUID="34d9460e-22fa-405e-b0b7-b0aaef596b1c" CreationDate="2016-12-15T13:53:36.513" UserId="1241" Text="Poinsettias didn't arrive in the United States until 1825. The National Poinsettia Day is celebrated on Dec. 12 in the US, honoring both the plant and the man who brought it to America [source: [University of Illinois\]][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Named after Joel Roberts Poinsett, first United States ambassador to Mexico and the amateur botanist who introduced the plant to the U.S. in 1825, the poinsettia is also known as Mexican Flame Leaf, Winter Rose, Noche Buena and, in Turkey, Atakurk's Flower, because it was the favorite flower of Atakurk, the founder of modern Turkey. - [Meaning &amp; Symbolism of Poinsettias][2]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the origins of the poinsettias association with Christmas, this should help:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;There is an old Mexican legend (16th century) about how Poinsettias and Christmas come together, it goes like this:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;There was once a poor Mexican girl called Pepita who had no present to give the the baby Jesus at the Christmas Eve Services. As Pepita walked to the chapel, sadly, her cousin Pedro tried to cheer her up.&#xD;&#xA;'Pepita', he said &quot;I'm sure that even the smallest gift, given by someone who loves him will make Jesus happy.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Pepita didn't know what she could give, so she picked a small handful of weeds from the roadside and made them into a a small bouquet. She felt embarrassed because she could only give this small present to Jesus. As she walked through the chapel to the altar, she remembered what Pedro had said. She began to feel better, knelt down and put the bouquet at the bottom of the nativity scene. Suddenly, the bouquet of weeds burst into bright red flowers, and everyone who saw them were sure they had seen a miracle. From that day on, the bright red flowers were known as the 'Flores de Noche Buena', or 'Flowers of the Holy Night'. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;The shape of the poinsettia flower and leaves are sometimes thought as a symbol of the Star of Bethlehem which led the Wise Men to Jesus. The red colored leaves symbolize the blood of Christ. The white leaves represent his purity. - [Poinsettias at Christmas][3] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://extension.illinois.edu/poinsettia/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.teleflora.com/meaning-of-flowers/poinsettia&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.whychristmas.com/customs/poinsettia.shtml" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8894" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2159" RevisionGUID="54f812c8-e359-44f0-a86f-5282a4c0cf06" CreationDate="2016-12-15T14:39:03.207" UserDisplayName="user3198" Text="I can give you a close example from [Armenian][1] mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But instead of dying and going to a dedicated realm, an [Arazel][2] will come down from the heavens (or according to some scriptures from mount [Ararat][3]) and lick your wounds, revivng you and allowing you to keep fighting. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason this is close is, when you come back, you're not really alive; you are given a chance to continue fighting, but not to continue living.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;the wiki page on Aralezs is not very acurate thou.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.armenian-history.com/Armenian_mythology.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aralez_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://hy.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D4%B1%D6%80%D5%A1%D6%80%D5%A1%D5%BF" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8897" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2160" RevisionGUID="dca1ab53-61e9-4b3a-8e13-b555c43df86d" CreationDate="2016-12-15T16:49:47.023" UserId="3229" Text="So a little more poking around has led me to an answer. The physics of why a spherically symmetric star appears to have spikes is an optical effect called diffraction. A good explanation is provided on [this wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffraction_spike). Most telescopes have legs that support the secondary mirror (all labelled _3_ below):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![telescope][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The light rays entering the telescope diffract off these legs to produce spikes in the resulting image, effectively encoding the loss of information caused by the legs (i.e., the legs have obscured some of the light entering the telescope):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See also [this stackexchange question](https://photo.stackexchange.com/questions/6605/why-do-light-sources-appear-as-stars-sometimes) and [here](http://www.stfmc.de/misc/diffcontrarefl/tlf.html) for more details and further interesting links.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, my question was why were stars still drawn with diffraction spikes when telescopes had not been invented yet. Well, citing the links here:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2015/06/16/4253961.htm&#xD;&#xA; - https://www.quora.com/Why-do-stars-always-appear-to-have-five-points-or-spikes-Is-it-in-our-eyes&#xD;&#xA; - http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/surprisingly-complicated-reason-why-stars-seem-have-points-180952587/&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The diffraction spikes are apparently caused - in a very similar way - by the suture lines of the lenses in one's eyes. Essentially, the suture joints cause light passing through the lens to diffract along those lines producing a similar optical effect to the supporting legs of a mirror in telescopes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, it appears that the pointed star shape may well have been called a star from very early on, and it may well be because people really had seen stars as pointed objects from the very beginning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/hYap1.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/7Ey5L.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/4g0oL.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8898" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2160" RevisionGUID="a28a337f-0227-4a07-95bb-8d7dc87dc77f" CreationDate="2016-12-15T16:55:20.763" UserId="3229" Comment="answer my question more fully + more appropriate link" Text="So a little more poking around has led me to an answer. The physics of why a spherically symmetric star appears to have spikes is an optical effect called diffraction. A good explanation is provided on [this wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffraction_spike). Most telescopes have legs that support the secondary mirror (all labelled _3_ below):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![telescope][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The light rays entering the telescope diffract off these legs to produce spikes in the resulting image, effectively encoding the loss of information caused by the legs (i.e., the legs have obscured some of the light entering the telescope):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See also [this stackexchange question](https://photo.stackexchange.com/questions/6605/why-do-light-sources-appear-as-stars-sometimes) and [here](http://www.stfmc.de/misc/diffcontrarefl/tlf.html) for more details and further interesting links.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, my question was why were stars still drawn with diffraction spikes when telescopes had not been invented yet. Well, citing the links here:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2015/06/16/4253961.htm&#xD;&#xA; - https://www.quora.com/Why-do-stars-always-appear-to-have-five-points-or-spikes-Is-it-in-our-eyes&#xD;&#xA; - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVAKFJ8VVp4&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The diffraction spikes are apparently caused - in a very similar way - by the suture lines of the lenses in one's eyes. Essentially, the suture joints cause light passing through the lens to diffract along those lines producing a similar optical effect to the supporting legs of a mirror in telescopes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, it appears that the pointed star shape may well have been called a star from very early on, and it may well be because people really had seen stars as pointed objects from the very beginning; there appears to be no other mythology behind it than that.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/hYap1.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/7Ey5L.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/4g0oL.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8900" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2131" RevisionGUID="c123aaa2-fdb5-4547-97d8-08a2cf08718d" CreationDate="2016-12-16T01:22:00.667" UserId="967" Comment="edited title" Text="Why do we call the pentagram a &quot;star&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8901" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2159" RevisionGUID="50fe8751-0625-4778-a579-b5eb88f8809a" CreationDate="2016-12-16T02:18:38.347" UserId="967" Comment="added 3 characters in body" Text="I can give you a close example from [Armenian][1] mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But instead of dying and going to a dedicated realm, an [Arazel][2] will come down from the heavens (or according to some scriptures from mount [Ararat][3]) and lick your wounds, revivng you and allowing you to keep fighting. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason this is close is, when you come back, you're not really alive; you are given a chance to continue fighting, but not to continue living.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The wiki page on Aralezs is not very accurate though.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.armenian-history.com/Armenian_mythology.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aralez_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://hy.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D4%B1%D6%80%D5%A1%D6%80%D5%A1%D5%BF" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8903" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2161" RevisionGUID="f439510b-20bb-4915-b8f4-6d24feea54f6" CreationDate="2016-12-16T11:09:40.633" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8904" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2161" RevisionGUID="f439510b-20bb-4915-b8f4-6d24feea54f6" CreationDate="2016-12-16T11:09:40.633" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8905" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2162" RevisionGUID="99281391-0e09-49f0-8542-7cc13dcbf97e" CreationDate="2016-12-16T11:09:40.633" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8906" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2162" RevisionGUID="99281391-0e09-49f0-8542-7cc13dcbf97e" CreationDate="2016-12-16T11:09:40.633" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8907" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2163" RevisionGUID="e0272264-f72c-4d7c-b83c-1fb8514bd453" CreationDate="2016-12-16T15:01:33.397" UserId="3230" Text="This is from [Bleh's answer][1] (quoting [theoi.com][2]):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The cosmic story of five Titanes--four holding the corners of heaven--may be Phoenician in origin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What Phoenician story could be the basis for the cosmic story of five Titanes?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/1786/3230&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Titanes.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8908" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2163" RevisionGUID="e0272264-f72c-4d7c-b83c-1fb8514bd453" CreationDate="2016-12-16T15:01:33.397" UserId="3230" Text="What Phoenician story could be the inspiration of the cosmic story of five Titanes?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8909" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2163" RevisionGUID="e0272264-f72c-4d7c-b83c-1fb8514bd453" CreationDate="2016-12-16T15:01:33.397" UserId="3230" Text="|greek|myth-identification|titans|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8910" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2163" RevisionGUID="a82c870d-a709-4f2e-bf3f-31d449f11963" CreationDate="2016-12-16T15:11:03.780" UserId="3230" Comment="deleted 15 characters in body" Text="This is from [Bleh's answer][1] (quoting [theoi.com][2]):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The cosmic story of five Titanes--four holding the corners of heaven--may be Phoenician in origin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What Phoenician story could be the basis for the Titanes story?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/1786/3230&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Titanes.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8911" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2163" RevisionGUID="dac35cd5-0e1b-49b2-ab9c-b7555aeddbc0" CreationDate="2016-12-16T15:44:49.677" UserId="111" Comment="added phoenician tag" Text="|greek|myth-identification|titans|phoenician|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8912" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2156" RevisionGUID="8c71d37d-ce1a-4019-904a-abdf2594b5b6" CreationDate="2016-12-16T16:14:27.087" UserId="3230" Comment="spelling. added linked image to the answer." Text="If you take the realms as parts of the earth (as some scholars do) some realms were as big as today's Germany, some about the size of Denmark ([The Prose Edda, page 14][1]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A more mythological answer would be the realms were not only different sizes but also wildly differed in shape: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.redicecreations.com/files/The-Prose-Edda.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/GKEH7.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8913" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2156" RevisionGUID="8c71d37d-ce1a-4019-904a-abdf2594b5b6" CreationDate="2016-12-16T16:14:27.087" Comment="Proposed by 3230 approved by 2774, -1 edit id of 395" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8914" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2156" RevisionGUID="72acb42e-671a-41e3-89e8-37e95c01ad73" CreationDate="2016-12-16T16:14:27.087" UserId="2892" Comment="spelling. added linked image to the answer." Text="If you take the realms as parts of the earth (as some scholars do) some realms were as big as today's Germany, some about the size of Denmark ([The Prose Edda, page 14][1]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A more mythological answer would be the realms were not only different sizes but also wildly different in shape: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.redicecreations.com/files/The-Prose-Edda.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/GKEH7.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8915" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2164" RevisionGUID="d4eb6fcb-ba72-463b-ae44-86fd8484f350" CreationDate="2016-12-16T18:55:59.460" UserId="183" Text="As far as I can tell, the modern-day theory for the connection between Phoenician gods and the Greek Titans coms from [*Atlantis, the Antediluvian World*](http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/ataw/ataw403.htm), written in 1882 by Ignatius Donnelly. Donnelly attempted to draw parallels between several different mythologies and historical accounts, and in doing so prove that the lost continent of Atlantis actually existed. As should be obvious, this makes most of his conclusions dubious, at best.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Donnelly writes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Not alone were the gods of the Greeks the deified kings of Atlantis, but we find that the mythology of the Phœnicians was drawn from the same source.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For instance, we find in the Phœnician cosmogony that the Titans (Rephaim) derive their origin from the Phœnician gods Agrus and Agrotus. This connects the Phœnicians with that island in the remote west, in the midst of ocean, where, according to the Greeks, the Titans dwelt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that &quot;Rephaim&quot; appears to be an attempt to connect the Titans with the [Rephaites](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rephaite), giants which appear in Hebrew texts. This is another indication of the book's attempt to find similarities between different religions and mythologies. For this reason, I'd be doubtful of the connection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Atlantis, the Antediluvian World* is not listed among the sources on [the page you link to](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Titanes.html), but I honestly can find no other source of the Titan-Phoenician connection (not that there isn't one, just that most mentions are exact quotes of Donnelly). There are definitely parallels between Canaanite mythology and ancient Greek mythology, but I can't find any more information on this specific case.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As an interesting note, I've seen some references in passing to Targhizizi and Tharumagi, twin mountains which supposedly hold up the sky, and I suppose those could be connected with Agrus and Agrotus." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8916" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2165" RevisionGUID="077b9551-397f-4117-8f1e-ece83e3a4c2a" CreationDate="2016-12-16T22:18:43.417" UserId="57" Text="Wikipedia records four Orphic theogonies: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - The &quot;Protogonos Theogony&quot;, lost, composed c. 500 BC which is known through the commentary in the Derveni papyrus and references in classical authors (Empedocles and Pindar).  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; - The &quot;Eudemian Theogony&quot;, lost, composed in the 5th century BC. It is the product of a syncretic Bacchic-Kouretic cult.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - The &quot;Rhapsodic Theogony&quot;, lost, composed in the Hellenistic age, incorporating earlier works. It is known through summaries in later neo-Platonist authors.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Orphic Hymns. 87 hexametric poems of a shorter length composed in the late Hellenistic or early Roman Imperial age.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Orphism (religion). (2016, November 30). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 08:34, November 30, 2016, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Orphism_(religion)&amp;oldid=752254631 &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And there's at least one more we know of, attributed to Hieronymus and Hellanicus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What are the main differences - if any - of these theogonies?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8917" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2165" RevisionGUID="077b9551-397f-4117-8f1e-ece83e3a4c2a" CreationDate="2016-12-16T22:18:43.417" UserId="57" Text="What are the main differences of the Orphic theogonies?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8918" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2165" RevisionGUID="077b9551-397f-4117-8f1e-ece83e3a4c2a" CreationDate="2016-12-16T22:18:43.417" UserId="57" Text="|greek|orphism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8919" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2165" RevisionGUID="a6012a51-ede2-4d37-b75a-8014b6c3772d" CreationDate="2016-12-16T22:31:56.183" UserId="57" Comment="added 9 characters in body" Text="Wikipedia records four distinct Orphic theogonies: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - The &quot;Protogonos Theogony&quot;, lost, composed c. 500 BC which is known through the commentary in the Derveni papyrus and references in classical authors (Empedocles and Pindar).  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; - The &quot;Eudemian Theogony&quot;, lost, composed in the 5th century BC. It is the product of a syncretic Bacchic-Kouretic cult.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - The &quot;Rhapsodic Theogony&quot;, lost, composed in the Hellenistic age, incorporating earlier works. It is known through summaries in later neo-Platonist authors.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Orphic Hymns. 87 hexametric poems of a shorter length composed in the late Hellenistic or early Roman Imperial age.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Orphism (religion). (2016, November 30). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 08:34, November 30, 2016, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Orphism_(religion)&amp;oldid=752254631 &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And there's at least one more we know of, attributed to Hieronymus and Hellanicus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What are the main differences - if any - of these theogonies?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8920" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2166" RevisionGUID="1eb12128-75b0-45ea-8091-96718cdad715" CreationDate="2016-12-17T08:43:14.647" UserId="57" Text="Greek mythology is full of stories where gods would disguise themselves as humans, beasts or elements to deceive humans. Especially with Zeus, this appears to be a favourite plot element. A particularly interesting story of Hermes disguising as Phanes, the protogonos of the Orphic tradition, appears in Nonnus' Dionysiaca:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Here behind the many keys and seals of the palace allseeing Hera spied him with her infallible eyes, guarded by Mystis in that hidden corner of the house. Then she swore by the infernal water of after avenging Styx, that she would drown the house of Ino in a flood of innumerable woes. Indeed she would have destroyed the son of Zeus; but Hermes caught him up and carried him to the wooded ridge where Cybele dwelt. Moving fast, Hera ran swiftshoe on quick feet from high heaven; but he was before her, and assumed the eternal shape of firstborn Phanes. Hera in respect for the most ancient of the gods, gave him place and bowed before the radiance of the deceiving face, not knowing the borrowed shape for a fraud. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Nonnus, Dionysiaca, Book 9. Translated by Rouse, W H D. Loeb Classical Library Volumes 344, 354, 356. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press, 1940&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story of a god taking the form of another, mightier god is a departure from the pattern of Zeus transforming to one animal or another to impregnate his latest infatuation. This particular trick allows Hermes to achieve an otherwise impossible task: to deceive the &quot;allseeing&quot; Hera, with her &quot;infallible eyes&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, fascinating as the story might be, it raises the question of what's stopping any god from talking the form of a mightier one and achieving whatever they want. Do we know of other stories of gods taking the form of another god? If so, did those stories limit the ability in any way? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or is Nonnus' story just a piece of bad storytelling? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8921" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2166" RevisionGUID="1eb12128-75b0-45ea-8091-96718cdad715" CreationDate="2016-12-17T08:43:14.647" UserId="57" Text="Would the gods often take the form of another god?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8922" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2166" RevisionGUID="1eb12128-75b0-45ea-8091-96718cdad715" CreationDate="2016-12-17T08:43:14.647" UserId="57" Text="|greek|hermes|orphism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8923" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2166" RevisionGUID="a921d5b3-a166-49ca-abaf-ce89ce22274e" CreationDate="2016-12-17T09:43:13.027" UserId="57" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="Greek mythology is full of stories where gods would disguise themselves as humans, beasts or elements to deceive humans. Especially with Zeus, this appears to be a favourite plot element. A particularly interesting story of Hermes disguising as Phanes, the protogonos of the Orphic tradition, appears in Nonnus' Dionysiaca:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Here behind the many keys and seals of the palace allseeing Hera spied him with her infallible eyes, guarded by Mystis in that hidden corner of the house. Then she swore by the infernal water of after avenging Styx, that she would drown the house of Ino in a flood of innumerable woes. Indeed she would have destroyed the son of Zeus; but Hermes caught him up and carried him to the wooded ridge where Cybele dwelt. Moving fast, Hera ran swiftshoe on quick feet from high heaven; but he was before her, and assumed the eternal shape of firstborn Phanes. Hera in respect for the most ancient of the gods, gave him place and bowed before the radiance of the deceiving face, not knowing the borrowed shape for a fraud. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Nonnus, Dionysiaca, Book 9. Translated by Rouse, W H D. Loeb Classical Library Volumes 344, 354, 356. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press, 1940&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story of a god taking the form of another, mightier god is a departure from the pattern of Zeus transforming to one animal or another to impregnate his latest infatuation. This particular trick allowed Hermes to achieve an otherwise impossible task: to deceive the &quot;allseeing&quot; Hera, with her &quot;infallible eyes&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, fascinating as the story might be, it raises the question of what's stopping any god from talking the form of a mightier one and achieving whatever they want. Do we know of other stories of gods taking the form of another god? If so, did those stories limit the ability in any way? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or is Nonnus' story just a piece of bad storytelling? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8924" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2066" RevisionGUID="74081dfe-3b50-4dc1-91c5-9489d83c6ae3" CreationDate="2016-12-17T09:51:31.237" UserId="57" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="Is it mentioned anywhere in the scriptures how big the ancient Norse believed the Nine Realms of their myths were?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8925" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2167" RevisionGUID="0b01b509-da7b-4553-b362-2ffe63de0000" CreationDate="2016-12-17T12:02:19.457" UserId="398" Text="The Greeks also had this with Elysion (often Latinized as Elysium or translated as Elysian fields from *Pedion Elysion*), also called the Island of the Blessed (Makaria) or the White Isle. It was supposed to be reserved for the grand heroes of the Heroic Age, though later the idea that good warriors went there and, even later, everyone who could commune with the gods of the dead. We have it super early in the *Odyssey*, though that seemingly conflicts with the rest of the Underworld scene (quotes taken from [Theoi](http://www.theoi.com/Kosmos/Elysion.html):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Homer, *Odyssey* 4.560ff. (trans. Shewring)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As for yourself, King Menelaos, it is not your fate to die in Argos . . . The Deathless Ones will waft you instead to the world's end, the Elysian fields (pedion Elysion) where yellow-haired Rhadamanthys is. There indeed men live unlaborious days. Snow and tempest and thunderstorms never enter there, but for men's refreshment Okeanos (Oceanus) sends out coninually the high-singing breezes of the west (aetae Zephyrioi). All this the gods have in store for you, remembering how your wife is Helene and how her father is Zeus himself.’&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod is more explicit about who ends up there. Hesiod has this set-up where he distinguishes the current age (the age of iron) from the previous age (the age of the demigods). From this is seems clear that only the heroes of yore were granted entry, while current people were denied it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod, *Works and Days* 156ff. (trans. Evelyn-White)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Zeus the son of Kronos (Cronus) made yet another [race of men], the fourth, upon the fruitful earth, which was nobler and more righteous, a god-like race of hero-men who are called demi-gods (hemitheoi), the race before our own, throughout the boundless earth. Grim war and dread battle destroyed a part of them, some in the land of Kadmos at seven-gated Thebe when they fought for the flocks of Oidipous (Oedipus), and some, when it had brought them in ships over the great sea gulf to Troy for rich-haired Helene's sake: there death's end enshrouded a part of them. But to the others father Zeus the son of Kronos gave a living and an abode apart from men, and made them dwell at the ends of earth. And they live untouched by sorrow in the Islands of the Blessed (Nesoi Makarôn) along the shore of deep swirling Okeanos (Oceanus), happy heroes for whom the grain-giving earth bears honey-sweet fruit flourishing thrice a year, far from the deathless gods, and Kronos (Cronus) rules over them; for the father of men and gods released him from his bonds. And these last equally have honour and glory.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By the fifth century, it seemed current that brave warriors would all end up in Elysium. Pindar's account separates ordinary death from great and courageous death (i.e. death in battle):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pindar, Olympian Ode 2. 57 ff (trans. Conway) (Greek lyric C5th B.C.) :&#xD;&#xA;&quot;When they [people] die, hearts that were void of mercy pay the due penalty, and of this world's sins a judge [i.e. Minos or Rhadamanthys] below the earth holds trial, and of dread necessity declares the word of doom.&#xD;&#xA;But the good, through the nights alike, and through the days unending, beneath the sun's bright ray, tax no the soil with the strength of their hands, nor the broad sea for a poor living, but enjoy a life that knows no toil; with men honoured of heaven, who kept their sworn word gladly, spending an age free from all tears. But the unjust endure pain that no eye can bear to see.&#xD;&#xA;**But those who had good courage, three times on either side of death, to keep their hearts untarnished of all wrong, these travel along the road of Zeus to Kronos' (Cronus') tower. There round the Islands of the Blest (Nesoi Makaron), the winds of Okeanos (Oceanus) play, and golden blossoms burn, some nursed upon the waters, others on land on glorious trees;** and woven on their hands are wreaths enchained and flowering crowns, under the just decrees of Rhadamanthys, who has his seat at the right hand of the great father, Rhea's husband, goddess who holds the throne highest of all. And Peleus and Kadmos (Cadmus) are of that number, and thither, when her prayers on the heart of Zeus prevailed, his mother brought Akhilleus (Achilles), he who felled Hektor, Troy's pillar invincible, unyielding, and brought death to Kyknos (Cycnus), and the Aithiop (Ethiopian) [Memnon] son of Eos.&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8926" PostHistoryTypeId="12" PostId="2167" RevisionGUID="0618692c-3e57-47d7-a59c-423782c98eb1" CreationDate="2016-12-17T12:03:17.850" UserId="398" Comment="via Vote" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;C. M. Weimer&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="8927" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2167" RevisionGUID="378e0839-c335-43ed-ba1a-14129295cdcf" CreationDate="2016-12-17T12:16:33.690" UserId="398" Comment="deleted 3366 characters in body" Text="The Aztecs seem to have had a comparable afterlife. While some warriors are said to have gone on to paradise, others join Huitzilopochtli, the god of war and human sacrifice, for endless war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the Wikipedia [entry on Huitzilopochtli](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huitzilopochtli#Mythology), citing Michael D. Coe's 2008 monograph, *Mexico: From the Olmecs to the Aztecs* (published at London by Thames &amp; Hudson, p. 211):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to Miguel León-Portilla, in this new vision from Tlacaelel, the warriors that died in battle and women who died in childbirth would go to serve Huitzilopochtli in his palace (in the south, or left). From a description in the Florentine Codex, Huitzilopochtli was so bright that the warrior souls had to use their shields to protect their eyes. They could only see the god through the arrow holes in their shields, so it was the bravest warrior who could see him best. Warriors were transformed into hummingbirds upon death and went to join Huitzilopochtli." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8928" PostHistoryTypeId="13" PostId="2167" RevisionGUID="14017128-3751-47db-b742-464470b66664" CreationDate="2016-12-17T12:16:38.323" UserId="398" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;C. M. Weimer&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="8929" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2168" RevisionGUID="6d9c07f2-3e60-4a3e-8f37-3668e095b459" CreationDate="2016-12-17T16:37:58.133" UserId="3253" Text="Having spend some time studying Icelandic and the older Norge, the Old Norsk seem more to me The Heart (remember, it was thought in this Nordic era that the heart was the center of thought in humans) and The Spirit or The Desire (Huginn og Muninn), both masculine here (the article is incorporated into the noun as one word and declines as such.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So yes, I will go with The Desire or The Spirit to think and fight.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8930" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2162" RevisionGUID="6b2df345-9573-44dc-a479-6bbba5f6981a" CreationDate="2016-12-17T18:23:11.260" UserId="468" Comment="added 42 characters in body" Text="Christmas symbolism or traditional symbols" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8931" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2162" RevisionGUID="6b2df345-9573-44dc-a479-6bbba5f6981a" CreationDate="2016-12-17T18:23:11.260" Comment="Proposed by 468 approved by -1 edit id of 394" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8932" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2162" RevisionGUID="acc5a486-69a9-4696-aee2-1ba0475debcf" CreationDate="2016-12-17T18:23:11.260" UserId="398" Comment="added 16 characters in body" Text="Concerning legends, traditions, and symbolism of Christmas" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8933" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="419" RevisionGUID="6c915441-c06f-4454-bd49-4ad889b29d96" CreationDate="2016-12-17T19:21:29.893" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:62,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Hamlet&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="8934" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2169" RevisionGUID="5b0140eb-197c-4964-b332-47cc1b416a3c" CreationDate="2016-12-17T21:49:06.840" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="What is the difference between fakelore and folklore?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8935" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2169" RevisionGUID="5b0140eb-197c-4964-b332-47cc1b416a3c" CreationDate="2016-12-17T21:49:06.840" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="What is the difference between folklore and fakelore?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8936" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2169" RevisionGUID="5b0140eb-197c-4964-b332-47cc1b416a3c" CreationDate="2016-12-17T21:49:06.840" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="|folkloristics|fakelore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8937" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2170" RevisionGUID="0a26353f-828d-4621-9e5b-19f287624ed8" CreationDate="2016-12-17T21:49:06.840" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="Folklore represents culture (e.g. stories, songs, and jokes) that are spread by word of mouth&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the problems that scholars of folklore face is that people have a tendency to claim that stories that were the work of a few artists actually represent oral tradition. Sometimes people will take existing folklore that was spread by word of mouth, but then modify it: the brothers Grimm are famous examples of this. Other times people will create entirely new stories by themselves but then pass them off as new traditions: famous examples of this include the Kalevala and the Paul Bunyan stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The folklorist Richard Dorson was very frustrated by the counterfeiting of oral tradition, and created the term &quot;fakelore&quot; to refer to stories that claimed to be oral tradition but were actually the work of a few people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The problem with this split between folklore and fakelore is that fakelore can find its way back into the oral tradition. For example, although the story of Paul Bunyan mostly originated as advertising for logging companies, [it eventually entered oral tradition in America][1]. Another interesting example [is the &quot;Eagle Dance&quot;, which was taught to the Washoe Indians by a movie director, but since entered their oral tradition][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you are interested in learning more, Alan Dundes has an article titled &quot;Nationalistic Inferiority Complexes and the Fabrication of Fakelore: A Reconsideration of Ossian, the Kinder- und Hausmärchen, the Kalevala, and Paul Bunyan&quot; that is [available online at JSTOR][3]. JSTOR is behind a paywall, but can be accessed for free [from some local libraries][4].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1)&lt;/sup&gt; Recently, [scholars who study folklore have broadened their focus to places like the internet, where things like chain emails are spread using processes similar to word of mouth transmission.][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/1498351&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/4h153a/pecos_bill_and_the_distinction_between_fakelore/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/3814466&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://worldcat.org&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1034&amp;context=usupress_pubs" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8938" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2170" RevisionGUID="48139dd7-df2c-441d-910a-46df97159ffe" CreationDate="2016-12-17T22:05:33.203" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 120 characters in body" Text="Folklore represents culture (e.g. stories, songs, and jokes) that are spread by word of mouth&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the problems that scholars of folklore face is that people have a tendency to claim that stories that were the work of a few artists actually represent oral tradition. Sometimes people will take existing folklore that was spread by word of mouth, but then modify it: the brothers Grimm are famous examples of this. Other times people will create entirely new stories by themselves but then pass them off as new traditions: famous examples of this include the Kalevala and the Paul Bunyan stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The folklorist Richard Dorson was very frustrated by the counterfeiting of oral tradition, and created the term &quot;fakelore&quot; to refer to stories that claimed to be oral tradition but were actually the work of a few people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The problem with this split between folklore and fakelore is that fakelore can find its way back into the oral tradition. For example, although the story of Paul Bunyan mostly originated as advertising for logging companies, [it eventually entered oral tradition in America][1]. Another interesting example [is the &quot;Eagle Dance&quot;, which was taught to the Washoe Indians by a movie director, but since entered their oral tradition][2]. It doesn't make sense to dismiss &quot;fakelore&quot;, because in reality it plays a huge role in the creation of oral tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you are interested in learning more, Alan Dundes has an article titled &quot;Nationalistic Inferiority Complexes and the Fabrication of Fakelore: A Reconsideration of Ossian, the Kinder- und Hausmärchen, the Kalevala, and Paul Bunyan&quot; that is [available online at JSTOR][3]. JSTOR is behind a paywall, but can be accessed for free [from some local libraries][4].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1)&lt;/sup&gt; Recently, [scholars who study folklore have broadened their focus to places like the internet, where things like chain emails are spread using processes similar to word of mouth transmission.][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/1498351&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/4h153a/pecos_bill_and_the_distinction_between_fakelore/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/3814466&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://worldcat.org&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1034&amp;context=usupress_pubs" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8939" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2169" RevisionGUID="67f675cf-4afe-4c35-8c96-cf54ceb66aef" CreationDate="2016-12-17T22:55:00.497" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|comparative|folkloristics|fakelore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8940" PostHistoryTypeId="9" PostId="2169" RevisionGUID="1bbee05e-53dd-4a54-a4b9-72ee5e994f66" CreationDate="2016-12-18T00:33:54.717" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="Rollback to [5b0140eb-197c-4964-b332-47cc1b416a3c]" Text="|folkloristics|fakelore|" />
  <row Id="8941" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2171" RevisionGUID="e7a10977-e6a8-40e9-85d3-23290a6bafb0" CreationDate="2016-12-18T15:33:55.720" UserId="57" Text="In Aristophanes' Frogs, Dionysus crosses a lake to reach Hades. The lake is where we first (and last) meet the eponymous frogs of the play, and Aristophanes does not name it. We do know, however, that it's the same lake Herakles crossed on his twelfth and final labour: bringing Cerberus back from the underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do we know the name of the lake? Do we know where it might be located? Does any of the Herakles stories give out any details about it?  &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8942" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2171" RevisionGUID="e7a10977-e6a8-40e9-85d3-23290a6bafb0" CreationDate="2016-12-18T15:33:55.720" UserId="57" Text="What is the name of the lake in Frogs?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8943" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2171" RevisionGUID="e7a10977-e6a8-40e9-85d3-23290a6bafb0" CreationDate="2016-12-18T15:33:55.720" UserId="57" Text="|greek|underworld|hercules|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8944" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2170" RevisionGUID="59e958d3-6bae-47b0-a006-58aca2b35f77" CreationDate="2016-12-18T17:04:08.463" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="made title easier to understand" Text="Folklore represents culture (e.g. stories, songs, and jokes) that are spread by word of mouth&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the problems that scholars of folklore face is that people have a tendency to claim that stories that were the work of a few artists actually represent oral tradition. Sometimes people will take existing folklore that was spread by word of mouth, but then modify it: the brothers Grimm are famous examples of this. Other times people will create entirely new stories by themselves but then pass them off as new traditions: famous examples of this include the Kalevala and the Paul Bunyan stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The folklorist Richard Dorson was very frustrated by the counterfeiting of oral tradition, and created the term &quot;fakelore&quot; to refer to stories that claimed to be oral tradition but were actually the work of a few people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The problem with this split between folklore and fakelore is that fakelore can find its way back into the oral tradition. For example, although the story of Paul Bunyan mostly originated as advertising for logging companies, [it eventually entered oral tradition in America][1]. Another interesting example [is the &quot;Eagle Dance&quot;, which was taught to the Washoe Indians by a movie director, but since entered their oral tradition][2]. It doesn't make sense to dismiss &quot;fakelore&quot;, because in reality it plays a huge role in the creation of oral tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you are interested in learning more, Alan Dundes has an article titled &quot;Nationalistic Inferiority Complexes and the Fabrication of Fakelore&quot; that is [available online at JSTOR][3]. JSTOR is behind a paywall, but can be accessed for free [from some local libraries][4].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1)&lt;/sup&gt; Recently, [scholars who study folklore have broadened their focus to places like the internet, where things like chain emails are spread using processes similar to word of mouth transmission.][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/1498351&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/4h153a/pecos_bill_and_the_distinction_between_fakelore/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/3814466&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://worldcat.org&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1034&amp;context=usupress_pubs" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8945" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2170" RevisionGUID="9eb9653a-a117-413b-9d17-c7932ab09b77" CreationDate="2016-12-18T18:53:09.340" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added link to definition" Text="Folklore represents culture (e.g. stories, songs, and jokes) that are spread by word of mouth&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the problems that scholars of folklore face is that people have a tendency to claim that stories that were the work of a few artists actually represent oral tradition. Sometimes people will take existing folklore that was spread by word of mouth, but then modify it: the brothers Grimm are famous examples of this. Other times people will create entirely new stories by themselves but then pass them off as new traditions: famous examples of this include the Kalevala and the Paul Bunyan stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The folklorist Richard Dorson was very frustrated by the counterfeiting of oral tradition, and created the term &quot;fakelore&quot; to refer to stories that claimed to be oral tradition but were actually the work of a few people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The problem with this split between folklore and fakelore is that fakelore can find its way back into the oral tradition. For example, although the story of Paul Bunyan mostly originated as advertising for logging companies, [it eventually entered oral tradition in America][1]. Another interesting example [is the &quot;Eagle Dance&quot;, which was taught to the Washoe Indians by a movie director, but since entered their oral tradition][2]. It doesn't make sense to dismiss &quot;fakelore&quot;, because in reality it plays a huge role in the creation of oral tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you are interested in learning more, Alan Dundes has an article titled &quot;Nationalistic Inferiority Complexes and the Fabrication of Fakelore&quot; that is [available online at JSTOR][3]. JSTOR is behind a paywall, but can be accessed for free [from some local libraries][4].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1)&lt;/sup&gt; [A more accurate definition would be &quot;person to person&quot;][5]. For example, recently [scholars who study folklore have broadened their focus to places like the internet, where things like chain emails are spread using processes similar to word of mouth transmission.][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/1498351&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/4h153a/pecos_bill_and_the_distinction_between_fakelore/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/3814466&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://worldcat.org&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://taxicrash.github.io/2015/01/04/Defining-Myth-Folklore-Legend/&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1034&amp;context=usupress_pubs" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8946" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2172" RevisionGUID="925f491b-9bf6-4059-85fd-5ccdea325103" CreationDate="2016-12-18T19:17:18.500" UserId="398" Text="It's Lake Lerna, a real (former) lake in the Argive plain. You might also know this lake from the [Lernaean Hydra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lernaean_Hydra), the killing of which was one of Heracles' tasks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The lake has disappeared now, but here was its approximate location. (Taken from Wikipedia.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Existence of Lake Lerna][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Smith's *Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography* sums ups its relationship to this myth:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The grove of Lerna contained two temples, in one of which Demeter Prosymna and Dionysus were worshipped, and in the other Dionysus Saotes. In this grove a festival, called the Lernaea, was celebrated in honour of Demeter and Dionysus. Pausanias also mentions the fountain of Amphiaraus, and the Alcyonian pool (ἡ Ἀλκυονία λίμνη), through which the Argives say that Dionysus descended into Hades in order to recover Semele. The Alcyonian pool was said to be unfathomable, and the emperor Nero in vain attempted to reach its bottom with a sounding line of several fathoms in length.  The circumference of the pool is estimated by Pausanias as only one-third of a stadium: its margin was covered with grass and rushes. Pausanias was told that, though the lake appeared so still and quiet, yet, if any one attempted to swim over it, he was dragged down to the bottom. Here Prosymnus is said to have pointed out to Dionysus the entrance in the lower world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you're wondering why Dionysus would have to cross a lake to get to the Underworld, the Greeks actually believed that all freshwater bodies of water descended down to Hades (many of which connect there).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can read about some of the reasons for this in Julie Baleriaux's paper she gave at the Penn-Leiden Colloquium a couple years ago: [Diving into the underground: Poseidon Hippios and the Arcadian Landscape](https://www.academia.edu/7109620/Diving_in_the_underground_Poseidon_Hippios_and_the_Arcadian_Landscape)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/n9fED.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8947" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2172" RevisionGUID="0f7c6c3d-d5ed-4d24-a8f2-cf2f957bb652" CreationDate="2016-12-18T19:31:52.927" UserId="398" Comment="added 410 characters in body" Text="It's probably Lake Lerna, a real (former) lake in the Argive plain. You might also know this lake from the [Lernaean Hydra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lernaean_Hydra), the killing of which was one of Heracles' tasks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The lake has disappeared now, but here was its approximate location. (Taken from Wikipedia.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Existence of Lake Lerna][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Smith's *Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography* sums ups its relationship to this myth:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The grove of Lerna contained two temples, in one of which Demeter Prosymna and Dionysus were worshipped, and in the other Dionysus Saotes. In this grove a festival, called the Lernaea, was celebrated in honour of Demeter and Dionysus. Pausanias also mentions the fountain of Amphiaraus, and the Alcyonian pool (ἡ Ἀλκυονία λίμνη), through which the Argives say that Dionysus descended into Hades in order to recover Semele. The Alcyonian pool was said to be unfathomable, and the emperor Nero in vain attempted to reach its bottom with a sounding line of several fathoms in length.  The circumference of the pool is estimated by Pausanias as only one-third of a stadium: its margin was covered with grass and rushes. Pausanias was told that, though the lake appeared so still and quiet, yet, if any one attempted to swim over it, he was dragged down to the bottom. Here Prosymnus is said to have pointed out to Dionysus the entrance in the lower world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you're wondering why Dionysus would have to cross a lake to get to the Underworld, the Greeks actually believed that many freshwater bodies of water descended down to Hades (many of which connect there). Styx, for example, is a re&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can read about some of the reasons for this in Julie Baleriaux's paper she gave at the Penn-Leiden Colloquium a couple years ago: [Diving into the underground: Poseidon Hippios and the Arcadian Landscape](https://www.academia.edu/7109620/Diving_in_the_underground_Poseidon_Hippios_and_the_Arcadian_Landscape)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Others as early as the [Suidas](http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/PotamosAkheron.html) have put forth Acheron as river, which is possible, but I don't think it's likely considering Acheron is mentioned separately in the play ([line 471](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0032%3Acard%3D460). You'll run into people suggesting it, though.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/n9fED.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8949" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="419" RevisionGUID="7582a306-98de-431e-a625-4b7c32792f63" CreationDate="2016-12-19T05:40:20.130" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="the ` make the text inaccessible for screen readers, and there is no reason to use them the way they were used in this question" Text="Odin's ravens would continuously fly all over Midgard to collect information and bring it back to Odin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Norse mythology, Huginn (from Old Norse &quot;thought&quot;) and Muninn&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Old Norse &quot;memory&quot; or &quot;mind&quot;) are a pair of ravens that fly all&#xD;&#xA;&gt; over the world, Midgard, and bring information to the god Odin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the poem [Grímnismál][2], it is said that Odin is afraid the two ravens would not come back.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    Hugin and Munin fly each day &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    over the spacious earth. &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    I fear for Hugin, that he come not back, &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    yet more anxious am I for Munin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why would a god be afraid that his ravens would not come back? Is there any secret meaning, connected to the ravens' names (Memory and Thought)?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huginn_and_Muninn&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe06.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8950" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2172" RevisionGUID="a4bb62c5-00e9-4526-868c-7e5f066d2bd0" CreationDate="2016-12-19T05:55:26.890" UserId="398" Comment="deleted 27 characters in body" Text="It's probably Lake Lerna, a real (former) lake in the Argive plain. You might also know this lake from the [Lernaean Hydra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lernaean_Hydra), the killing of which was one of Heracles' tasks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The lake has disappeared now, but here was its approximate location. (Taken from Wikipedia.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Existence of Lake Lerna][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Smith's *Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography* sums ups its relationship to this myth:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The grove of Lerna contained two temples, in one of which Demeter Prosymna and Dionysus were worshipped, and in the other Dionysus Saotes. In this grove a festival, called the Lernaea, was celebrated in honour of Demeter and Dionysus. Pausanias also mentions the fountain of Amphiaraus, and the Alcyonian pool (ἡ Ἀλκυονία λίμνη), through which the Argives say that Dionysus descended into Hades in order to recover Semele. The Alcyonian pool was said to be unfathomable, and the emperor Nero in vain attempted to reach its bottom with a sounding line of several fathoms in length.  The circumference of the pool is estimated by Pausanias as only one-third of a stadium: its margin was covered with grass and rushes. Pausanias was told that, though the lake appeared so still and quiet, yet, if any one attempted to swim over it, he was dragged down to the bottom. Here Prosymnus is said to have pointed out to Dionysus the entrance in the lower world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you're wondering why Dionysus would have to cross a lake to get to the Underworld, the Greeks actually believed that many freshwater bodies of water descended down to Hades (many of which connect there).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can read about some of the reasons for this in Julie Baleriaux's paper she gave at the Penn-Leiden Colloquium a couple years ago: [Diving into the underground: Poseidon Hippios and the Arcadian Landscape](https://www.academia.edu/7109620/Diving_in_the_underground_Poseidon_Hippios_and_the_Arcadian_Landscape)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Others as early as the [Suidas](http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/PotamosAkheron.html) have put forth Acheron as river, which is possible, but I don't think it's likely considering Acheron is mentioned separately in the play ([line 471](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0032%3Acard%3D460). You'll run into people suggesting it, though.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/n9fED.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8951" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2174" RevisionGUID="082089e6-2c3d-44ed-b24c-33f73490a471" CreationDate="2016-12-19T06:45:23.130" UserId="3097" Text="I read some years back, about some ancient mythology where people believed the gods would rather commonly curse mortals into animal forms. There may've even been terms specific to this process. I think it was even related that the werewolf legend may've come from this belief. I believe it was suggested to be from Greece.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I wanted to ask if there was any veracity in this. I can't remember where I read it, so it may've been an unreliable source. I'd like to be set straight in the matter." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8952" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2174" RevisionGUID="082089e6-2c3d-44ed-b24c-33f73490a471" CreationDate="2016-12-19T06:45:23.130" UserId="3097" Text="The Origin of Werewolf: Deities Cursing People into Animals?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8953" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2174" RevisionGUID="082089e6-2c3d-44ed-b24c-33f73490a471" CreationDate="2016-12-19T06:45:23.130" UserId="3097" Text="|mythical-creatures|origins|werewolves|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8954" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2172" RevisionGUID="158bf9a7-8215-48f5-b98b-7f214e822006" CreationDate="2016-12-19T08:53:14.487" UserId="57" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="It's probably Lake Lerna, a real (former) lake in the Argive plain. You might also know this lake from the [Lernaean Hydra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lernaean_Hydra), the killing of which was one of Heracles' tasks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The lake has disappeared now, but here was its approximate location. (Taken from Wikipedia.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Existence of Lake Lerna][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Smith's *Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography* sums ups its relationship to this myth:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The grove of Lerna contained two temples, in one of which Demeter Prosymna and Dionysus were worshipped, and in the other Dionysus Saotes. In this grove a festival, called the Lernaea, was celebrated in honour of Demeter and Dionysus. Pausanias also mentions the fountain of Amphiaraus, and the Alcyonian pool (ἡ Ἀλκυονία λίμνη), through which the Argives say that Dionysus descended into Hades in order to recover Semele. The Alcyonian pool was said to be unfathomable, and the emperor Nero in vain attempted to reach its bottom with a sounding line of several fathoms in length.  The circumference of the pool is estimated by Pausanias as only one-third of a stadium: its margin was covered with grass and rushes. Pausanias was told that, though the lake appeared so still and quiet, yet, if any one attempted to swim over it, he was dragged down to the bottom. Here Prosymnus is said to have pointed out to Dionysus the entrance in the lower world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you're wondering why Dionysus would have to cross a lake to get to the Underworld, the Greeks actually believed that many freshwater bodies of water descended down to Hades (many of which connect there).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can read about some of the reasons for this in Julie Baleriaux's paper she gave at the Penn-Leiden Colloquium a couple years ago: [Diving into the underground: Poseidon Hippios and the Arcadian Landscape](https://www.academia.edu/7109620/Diving_in_the_underground_Poseidon_Hippios_and_the_Arcadian_Landscape)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Others as early as the [Suidas](http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/PotamosAkheron.html) have put forth Acheron as river, which is possible, but I don't think it's likely considering Acheron is mentioned separately in the play ([line 471](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0032%3Acard%3D460)). You'll run into people suggesting it, though.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/n9fED.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8955" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2174" RevisionGUID="4d64199b-8541-4497-908e-5232bd750bc2" CreationDate="2016-12-19T08:54:55.113" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|folklore|origins|werewolves|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8957" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2175" RevisionGUID="1b012a18-7e0b-4f4a-a832-d7e349269b39" CreationDate="2016-12-19T09:49:32.673" UserId="2774" Text="The is the Sumerian story of Enlil and Ninlil.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Ninlil is a gorgeous woman (a dingir exactly, ie a Sumerian &quot;god&quot;) who loves to bath in the river, but her mother Nunbarshegunu warns her about the god Enlil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The river is Holy woman! [...] don't bath in it! [...] [Enlil] eye is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bright, [...] he will look at you! [...] Straight away he will want to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; have sex, he will want to kiss.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Very obviously Ninlil will still go to bath in the river (This kind of theme is nowadays used in slasher movie). Enlil will come to see Ninlil and tries to have sex with her, but Ninlil refuses with poor excuses. The next time she bathes Enlil captures her and rapes her. When the other gods are seeing what Enlil did they asks him to leave (one rare case when we see some kind of law and judgment in Sumerian text). But as Enlil is departing, Ninlil (the very first victim of the Stockholm syndrome) purses him.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Enlil goes to the city Gatekeeper and takes his shape:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Enlil answered as the city gatekeeper: &quot;My Lord has not talked to you&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with me at all, O loveliest one.&quot; [Ninlil then says]: &quot;I will make&#xD;&#xA;&gt; clear my aim and explain my intent. You can fill my womb once it is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; empty. Enlil, lord of the land, has had sex with me! Just as Enlil is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; you lord, So am I your lady!&quot;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story keeps going with Enlil travelling to the god river Idkura. The same scene is repeating: Enlil takes Idkura appearance denied to Ninlil having seen Enlil and she proposes herself for free.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;One last time Enlil goes to Siluigi (The Sumerian Charon) and we have the same scene: Enlil shapeshift and Ninlil offers herself.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;As a result of the sexual activities Ninlil will have Suen the moon god, Nergal and Ninazu some war/underworld gods, and Enbilulu the god of irrigation (or something approaching).&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;You have here the usual ambiguous pattern of Sumerian stories. The text is not making clear if Ninlil knows Enlil is impersonating another god or if she is just a whore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Translation taken from [url=https://www.amazon.com/Literature-Ancient-Sumer-Jeremy-Black/dp/0199296332]The literature of Ancient Sumer[/url]. You can find the same text in the [url=http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.1.2.1&amp;charenc=j#]ETCL[/url].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8958" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2176" RevisionGUID="6554762a-a0b2-4fee-b378-aa9a05456061" CreationDate="2016-12-19T09:50:45.153" UserId="57" Text="A possible candidate for the story you have in mind is the legend of Lycaon: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Greek mythology, Lycaon (/laɪˈkeɪɒn/; Greek: Λυκάων) was a king of Arcadia, son of Pelasgus and Meliboea, who, in the most popular version of the myth, tested Zeus by serving him the roasted flesh of his son Nyctimus, in order to see whether Zeus was truly omniscient. In return for these gruesome deeds, Zeus transformed Lycaon and his offspring into the forms of a wolf; Nyctimus was restored to life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Lycaon (Arcadia). (2016, December 12). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 21:11, December 12, 2016, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lycaon_(Arcadia)&amp;oldid=754471710&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You may find more details about the myth, including a list of sources, on the excellent resource [theoi.com][1]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story of the Neuri people as told by Herodotus may also be of interest, although it doesn't quite fit:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Neuri follow Scythian customs; but one generation before the advent of Darius' army, they happened to be driven from their country by snakes; for their land produced great numbers of these, and still more came down on them out of the desolation on the north, until at last the Neuri were so afflicted that they left their own country and lived among the Budini. It may be that these people are wizards; for the Scythians, and the Greeks settled in Scythia, say that once a year every one of the Neuri becomes a wolf for a few days and changes back again to his former shape. Those who tell this tale do not convince me; but they tell it nonetheless, and swear to its truth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; [Herodotus, The Histories (4.105)](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0016.tlg001.perseus-eng1:4.105), with an English translation by A. D. Godley. Cambridge. Harvard University Press. 1920&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Heros/Lykaon.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8959" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2176" RevisionGUID="32da7afb-f058-45f1-ab85-cef944e7791e" CreationDate="2016-12-19T09:56:17.607" UserId="57" Comment="added 53 characters in body" Text="A possible candidate for the story you have in mind is the legend of Lycaon: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Greek mythology, Lycaon (/laɪˈkeɪɒn/; Greek: Λυκάων) was a king of Arcadia, son of Pelasgus and Meliboea, who, in the most popular version of the myth, tested Zeus by serving him the roasted flesh of his son Nyctimus, in order to see whether Zeus was truly omniscient. In return for these gruesome deeds, Zeus transformed Lycaon and his offspring into the forms of a wolf; Nyctimus was restored to life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Lycaon (Arcadia). (2016, December 12). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 21:11, December 12, 2016, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lycaon_(Arcadia)&amp;oldid=754471710&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You may find more details about the myth, including a list of sources, on the excellent resource [theoi.com][1]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story of the [Neuri people][2] - as told by Herodotus - may also be of interest, although it doesn't quite fit:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Neuri follow Scythian customs; but one generation before the advent of Darius' army, they happened to be driven from their country by snakes; for their land produced great numbers of these, and still more came down on them out of the desolation on the north, until at last the Neuri were so afflicted that they left their own country and lived among the Budini. It may be that these people are wizards; for the Scythians, and the Greeks settled in Scythia, say that once a year every one of the Neuri becomes a wolf for a few days and changes back again to his former shape. Those who tell this tale do not convince me; but they tell it nonetheless, and swear to its truth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; [Herodotus, The Histories (4.105)](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0016.tlg001.perseus-eng1:4.105), with an English translation by A. D. Godley. Cambridge. Harvard University Press. 1920&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Heros/Lykaon.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuri" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8960" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2176" RevisionGUID="89e48bf9-4f1e-41c7-bb3d-c9bdb14e4e25" CreationDate="2016-12-19T10:12:57.387" UserId="57" Comment="added 235 characters in body" Text="A possible candidate for the story you have in mind is the legend of Lycaon: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Greek mythology, Lycaon (/laɪˈkeɪɒn/; Greek: Λυκάων) was a king of Arcadia, son of Pelasgus and Meliboea, who, in the most popular version of the myth, tested Zeus by serving him the roasted flesh of his son Nyctimus, in order to see whether Zeus was truly omniscient. In return for these gruesome deeds, Zeus transformed Lycaon and his offspring into the forms of a wolf; Nyctimus was restored to life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Lycaon (Arcadia). (2016, December 12). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 21:11, December 12, 2016, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lycaon_(Arcadia)&amp;oldid=754471710&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Callisto][1], Lycaon's daughter by some accounts, was also transformed to an animal - a bear this time. You may find more details about the myths, including lists of sources, on the excellent resource theoi.com: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- http://www.theoi.com/Heros/Lykaon.html&#xD;&#xA;- http://www.theoi.com/Heroine/Kallisto.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story of the [Neuri people][3] - as told by Herodotus - may also be of interest:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Neuri follow Scythian customs; but one generation before the advent of Darius' army, they happened to be driven from their country by snakes; for their land produced great numbers of these, and still more came down on them out of the desolation on the north, until at last the Neuri were so afflicted that they left their own country and lived among the Budini. It may be that these people are wizards; for the Scythians, and the Greeks settled in Scythia, say that once a year every one of the Neuri becomes a wolf for a few days and changes back again to his former shape. Those who tell this tale do not convince me; but they tell it nonetheless, and swear to its truth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; [Herodotus, The Histories (4.105)](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0016.tlg001.perseus-eng1:4.105), with an English translation by A. D. Godley. Cambridge. Harvard University Press. 1920&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callisto_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuri" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8962" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2177" RevisionGUID="4f1d51aa-6d2b-4436-815e-4402eb8438b4" CreationDate="2016-12-19T12:03:41.080" UserId="111" Text="The Protogonos, the Eudemian, the Rhapsodic and the Hieronyman theogonies are all reconstructed, discussed and compared in [ML West (1983)'s 'The Orphic Poems'](https://books.google.de/books/about/The_Orphic_Poems.html?id=Sp5fAAAAMAAJ&amp;redir_esc=y). Unfortunately, I do not have access to this work, so my answer is based solely on reviews, commentaries and criticisms of this book (such as [Brisson, 1985](http://www.jstor.org/stable/23670615) or [Betegh, 2004](https://books.google.de/books?id=5HaKQFeYSBEC&amp;lpg=PA143&amp;ots=aU4wIL76cU&amp;dq=hieronimus%20theogony%20titans%20dionysos&amp;pg=PP1#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The main difference seems to be in the primordial succession:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* In the Eudemian theogony, all starts with the Night, which lays an Egg from which Phanes/Protogonos arises.  &#xD;&#xA;* In the Rhapsodic theogony, it starts with Chronos ('Unageing Time', different from Kronos, Zeus' father) who gives birth to Ether and Chaos, and then lay the egg from which Phanes/Protogonos arises.  &#xD;&#xA;* In the Hieronyman theogony, the egg arises from soil (more specifically 'the matter out of which earth was coagulated') and water, and it is 'Unageing Time' Kronos which arises from it, and gives birth to Ether, Chaos and Erebus. Then Kronos lay a new egg in Chaos, from which arises Protogonos.&#xD;&#xA;* In the Derveni papyrus, a. k. a. the 'Protogonos' theogony, the Night lays the egg from which Protogonos arises, he then give birth the Ouranos &amp; Gaia, which give birth to Kronos, himself father of Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But there are other differences, notably in the treatment of Dionysos:   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* In the Eudemian and Rhapsodic theogonies, Dionysos is dismembered and cooked by the Titans before Zeus struck them with lightning (mankind then arises from the soot). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* The Derveni Papyrus being fragmentary, the story stops without having mentioned him, at Zeus swallowing the primordial egg of Protogonos and recreating the Universe in the process.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* The Hieronyman theogony do not mention Dionysos being eaten by the Titans in neither source it is known from (Damascius and Athenagoras), despite the latter describing the war on the Titans, which would imply that this story really isn't part of that theogony." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8963" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="390" RevisionGUID="dc2bac5b-5b45-4ee6-8a21-95aeb7b37cf0" CreationDate="2016-12-19T12:20:18.257" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="can we please make the definition of folklore mirror the academic definition of folklore, to avoid scaring away people who are interested in folklore?" Text="For questions about oral tradition, i.e. culture (stories, songs, etc.) that is spread by word of mouth&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1)&lt;/sup&gt; Recently, [scholars who study folklore have broadened their focus to places like the internet, where things like chain emails are spread using processes similar to word of mouth transmission.][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1034&amp;context=usupress_pubs" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8964" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="390" RevisionGUID="dc2bac5b-5b45-4ee6-8a21-95aeb7b37cf0" CreationDate="2016-12-19T12:20:18.257" Comment="Proposed by 62 approved by 967, 111 edit id of 396" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8965" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2177" RevisionGUID="83c991d5-7a4f-4da1-82e1-50bacfce87e2" CreationDate="2016-12-19T12:22:26.710" UserId="111" Comment="added 55 characters in body" Text="The Protogonos, the Eudemian, the Rhapsodic and the Hieronyman theogonies are all reconstructed, discussed and compared in [ML West (1983)'s 'The Orphic Poems'](https://books.google.de/books/about/The_Orphic_Poems.html?id=Sp5fAAAAMAAJ&amp;redir_esc=y). Unfortunately, I do not have access to this work, so my answer is based solely on reviews, commentaries and criticisms of this book (such as [Brisson, 1985](http://www.jstor.org/stable/23670615) or [Betegh, 2004](https://books.google.de/books?id=5HaKQFeYSBEC&amp;lpg=PA143&amp;ots=aU4wIL76cU&amp;dq=hieronimus%20theogony%20titans%20dionysos&amp;pg=PP1#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The main difference seems to be in the primordial succession:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* In the Eudemian theogony, all starts with the Night, which lays an Egg from which Phanes/Protogonos arises.  &#xD;&#xA;* In the Rhapsodic theogony, it starts with Chronos ('Unageing Time', different from Kronos, Zeus' father) who gives birth to Ether and Chaos, and then lay the egg from which Phanes/Protogonos arises.  &#xD;&#xA;* In the Hieronyman theogony, the egg arises from soil (more specifically 'the matter out of which earth was coagulated') and water, and it is 'Unageing Time' Kronos which arises from it, and gives birth to Ether, Chaos and Erebus. Then Kronos lay a new egg in Chaos, from which arises Protogonos.&#xD;&#xA;* In the Derveni papyrus, a. k. a. the 'Protogonos' theogony, the Night lays the egg from which Protogonos arises, he then give birth to Ouranos &amp; Gaia, which give birth to Kronos, himself father of Zeus who end up swallowing the primordial egg of Protogonos and recreating the Universe in the process.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But there are other differences, notably in the treatment of Dionysos:   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* In the Eudemian and Rhapsodic theogonies, Dionysos is dismembered and cooked by the Titans before Zeus struck them with lightning (mankind then arises from the soot, and Dionysos is resurrected from his preserved heart). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* The Derveni Papyrus being fragmentary, the story stops without having mentioned him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* The Hieronyman theogony do not mention Dionysos being eaten by the Titans in neither source it is known from (Damascius and Athenagoras), despite the latter describing the war on the Titans, which would imply that this story really isn't part of that theogony." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8966" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2175" RevisionGUID="66be3fec-21ee-4f99-b827-8f2971e3c67d" CreationDate="2016-12-19T12:50:29.640" UserId="2774" Comment="Properly indicate the links" Text="The is the Sumerian story of Enlil and Ninlil.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Ninlil is a gorgeous woman (a dingir exactly, ie a Sumerian &quot;god&quot;) who loves to bath in the river, but her mother Nunbarshegunu warns her about the god Enlil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The river is Holy woman! [...] don't bath in it! [...] [Enlil] eye is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bright, [...] he will look at you! [...] Straight away he will want to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; have sex, he will want to kiss.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Very obviously Ninlil will still go to bath in the river (This kind of theme is nowadays used in slasher movie). Enlil will come to see Ninlil and tries to have sex with her, but Ninlil refuses with poor excuses. The next time she bathes Enlil captures her and rapes her. When the other gods are seeing what Enlil did they asks him to leave (one rare case when we see some kind of law and judgment in Sumerian text). But as Enlil is departing, Ninlil (the very first victim of the Stockholm syndrome) purses him.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Enlil goes to the city Gatekeeper and takes his shape:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Enlil answered as the city gatekeeper: &quot;My Lord has not talked to you&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with me at all, O loveliest one.&quot; [Ninlil then says]: &quot;I will make&#xD;&#xA;&gt; clear my aim and explain my intent. You can fill my womb once it is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; empty. Enlil, lord of the land, has had sex with me! Just as Enlil is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; you lord, So am I your lady!&quot;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story keeps going with Enlil travelling to the god river Idkura. The same scene is repeating: Enlil takes Idkura appearance denied to Ninlil having seen Enlil and she proposes herself for free.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;One last time Enlil goes to Siluigi (The Sumerian Charon) and we have the same scene: Enlil shapeshift and Ninlil offers herself.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;As a result of the sexual activities Ninlil will have Suen the moon god, Nergal and Ninazu some war/underworld gods, and Enbilulu the god of irrigation (or something approaching).&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;You have here the usual ambiguous pattern of Sumerian stories. The text is not making clear if Ninlil knows Enlil is impersonating another god or if she is just a whore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Translation taken from [The literature of Ancient Sumer][1]. You can find the same text in the [ETCL][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.amazon.com/Literature-Ancient-Sumer-Jeremy-Black/dp/0199296332&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.1.2.1&amp;charenc=j#" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8967" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2175" RevisionGUID="51b4f901-ba47-4086-aeba-531f956f57b9" CreationDate="2016-12-19T12:57:02.487" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 23 characters in body" Text="The is the Sumerian story of Enlil and Ninlil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ninlil is a gorgeous woman (a dingir exactly, i.e. a Sumerian &quot;god&quot;) who loves to bath in the river, but her mother Nunbarshegunu warns her about the god Enlil:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The river is Holy woman! [...] don't bath in it! [...] [Enlil] eye is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bright, [...] he will look at you! [...] Straight away he will want to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; have sex, he will want to kiss.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Very obviously Ninlil still goes to bath in the river (This kind of theme is nowadays used in slasher movies). Enlil comes to see Ninlil and tries to have sex with her, but Ninlil refuses with poor excuses. The next time she bathes Enlil captures her and rapes her. When the other gods see what Enlil did they ask him to leave (a rare case when we see some kind of law and judgment in Sumerian text). But as Enlil is departing, Ninlil (the very first victim of the Stockholm syndrome) pursues him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Enlil goes to the city's gatekeeper and takes his shape:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Enlil answered as the city gatekeeper: &quot;My Lord has not talked to you&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with me at all, O loveliest one.&quot; [Ninlil then says]: &quot;I will make&#xD;&#xA;&gt; clear my aim and explain my intent. You can fill my womb once it is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; empty. Enlil, lord of the land, has had sex with me! Just as Enlil is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; you lord, So am I your lady!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story keeps going with Enlil travelling to the god river Idkura. The same scene is repeating: Enlil takes Idkura appearance denied to Ninlil having seen Enlil and she proposes herself for free.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One last time Enlil goes to Siluigi (The Sumerian Charon) and we have the same scene: Enlil shapeshifts and Ninlil offers herself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a result of the sexual activities Ninlil will have Suen the moon god, Nergal and Ninazu, some war/underworld gods, and Enbilulu the god of irrigation (or something approaching).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You have here the usual ambiguous pattern of Sumerian stories. The text is not making clear if Ninlil knows Enlil is impersonating another god or if she is just promiscuous.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Translation taken from [The literature of Ancient Sumer][1]. You can find the same text in the [ETCL][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.amazon.com/Literature-Ancient-Sumer-Jeremy-Black/dp/0199296332&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.1.2.1&amp;charenc=j#" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8971" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2178" RevisionGUID="b8639b72-9ebc-412a-9705-0641326a1a66" CreationDate="2016-12-19T14:33:30.493" UserId="3230" Text="Greeks identified the Carthaginian Baal Hammon with Cronus, and Romans, in turn, with Saturn. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why was that? Did Baal Hammon share any attributes with Cronus/Saturn? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8972" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2178" RevisionGUID="b8639b72-9ebc-412a-9705-0641326a1a66" CreationDate="2016-12-19T14:33:30.493" UserId="3230" Text="Why would Baal Hammon be identified with Cronus/Saturn?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8973" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2178" RevisionGUID="b8639b72-9ebc-412a-9705-0641326a1a66" CreationDate="2016-12-19T14:33:30.493" UserId="3230" Text="|greek|comparative|roman|phoenician|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8974" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2178" RevisionGUID="4fb6306f-dae0-4392-ba09-42213af2c668" CreationDate="2016-12-19T14:58:40.230" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|comparative|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8975" PostHistoryTypeId="9" PostId="2178" RevisionGUID="ddc97689-fa87-4537-b7a5-0db7fe3f6bc6" CreationDate="2016-12-19T15:01:22.793" UserId="967" Comment="Rollback to [b8639b72-9ebc-412a-9705-0641326a1a66]" Text="|greek|comparative|roman|phoenician|" />
  <row Id="8976" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2179" RevisionGUID="95ae7ac5-e9de-4ccb-b916-f508cd7b53a0" CreationDate="2016-12-19T15:30:50.680" UserId="967" Text="#They sacrificed children to both&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From [*Greek Religion and Culture, the Bible and the Ancient Near East*][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Kronos' connection to a human sacrifice was not uncommon. It also attested for Crete in the context of the Kouretes, and in Carthage Kronos was identified with Baal Hammon, the god to whom children were sacrificed... Sophocles already connects Kronos to human sacrifice by barbarians. In all these cases we may assume the influence of Kronos' mythical devouring of his children; in fact, an imperial inscription still calls him  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythworld.wikia.com/wiki/Interpretatio_graeca&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.com/books?id=id2wCQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA84&amp;lpg=PA84&amp;dq=why%20was%20baal%20hammon%20identified%20with%20cronos&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=oWUGJ9jYEc&amp;sig=CU-SvrO7JzvfxOQ2hxhs2WnvgJQ&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwi_iffCw4DRAhVKOCYKHa8sBPIQ6AEIOTAG#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8978" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2179" RevisionGUID="84338de6-eb0a-4165-9f3d-52b363ed2f94" CreationDate="2016-12-19T15:44:35.523" UserId="967" Comment="added 24 characters in body" Text="#They sacrificed children to both&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From [*Greek Religion and Culture, the Bible and the Ancient Near East*][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Kronos' connection to a human sacrifice was not uncommon. It also attested for Crete in the context of the Kouretes, and in Carthage Kronos was identified with Baal Hammon, the god to whom children were sacrificed... Sophocles already connects Kronos to human sacrifice by barbarians. In all these cases we may assume the influence of Kronos' mythical devouring of his children; in fact, an imperial inscription still calls him &quot;Kronos the child-eater.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythworld.wikia.com/wiki/Interpretatio_graeca&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.com/books?id=id2wCQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA84&amp;lpg=PA84&amp;dq=why%20was%20baal%20hammon%20identified%20with%20cronos&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=oWUGJ9jYEc&amp;sig=CU-SvrO7JzvfxOQ2hxhs2WnvgJQ&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwi_iffCw4DRAhVKOCYKHa8sBPIQ6AEIOTAG#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8979" PostHistoryTypeId="12" PostId="501" RevisionGUID="5a3a073b-cd61-4439-90e8-4c382840d225" CreationDate="2016-12-19T16:25:33.547" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="via Vote" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:62,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Hamlet&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="8980" PostHistoryTypeId="13" PostId="501" RevisionGUID="6560453d-8d2d-41cd-b06c-1e483bc7fefe" CreationDate="2016-12-19T16:30:51.697" UserDisplayName="user62" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:62,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Hamlet&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="8981" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="501" RevisionGUID="1c05ae36-827c-49c4-90b0-333ce9da859c" CreationDate="2016-12-19T16:31:49.780" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="removed part of answer I was unhappy with" Text="If you go by the &quot;Christianized&quot; version of the story, the grail is returned to heaven, because that's where it belongs (it's god's grail, and doesn't belong to humans).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...for in that place was part of the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, that Joseph of Arimathea brought into this land, and there himself lay in that rich bed. And that was the same spear that Longius smote our Lord to the heart; and King Pellam was nigh of Joseph's kin, and that was the most worshipful man that lived in those days, and great pity it was of his hurt, for through that stroke, turned to great dole, tray and tene.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And therewith he [Galahad] kneeled down to-fore the table and made his prayers, and then suddenly his soul departed to Jesu Christ, and a great multitude of angels bare his soul up to heaven, that the two fellows might well behold it. Also the two fellows saw come from heaven an hand, but they saw not the body. And then it came right to the Vessel, and took it and the spear, and so bare it up to heaven. Sithen was there never man so hardy to say that he had seen the Sangreal. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Malory, Thomas, Le Morte d'Arthur [Part 1](http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/1251) and [Part 2](http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/1252)&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8982" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2175" RevisionGUID="c0b3009d-f065-47b9-bd09-6676e0207421" CreationDate="2016-12-19T16:40:07.620" UserId="398" Comment="added 84 characters in body" Text="It's not Greek, so it's not a complete answer to your question, but there is a parallel in the Sumerian story of Enlil and Ninlil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ninlil is a gorgeous woman (a dingir exactly, i.e. a Sumerian &quot;god&quot;) who loves to bath in the river, but her mother Nunbarshegunu warns her about the god Enlil:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The river is Holy woman! [...] don't bath in it! [...] [Enlil] eye is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bright, [...] he will look at you! [...] Straight away he will want to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; have sex, he will want to kiss.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Very obviously Ninlil still goes to bath in the river (This kind of theme is nowadays used in slasher movies). Enlil comes to see Ninlil and tries to have sex with her, but Ninlil refuses with poor excuses. The next time she bathes Enlil captures her and rapes her. When the other gods see what Enlil did they ask him to leave (a rare case when we see some kind of law and judgment in Sumerian text). But as Enlil is departing, Ninlil (the very first victim of the Stockholm syndrome) pursues him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Enlil goes to the city's gatekeeper and takes his shape:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Enlil answered as the city gatekeeper: &quot;My Lord has not talked to you&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with me at all, O loveliest one.&quot; [Ninlil then says]: &quot;I will make&#xD;&#xA;&gt; clear my aim and explain my intent. You can fill my womb once it is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; empty. Enlil, lord of the land, has had sex with me! Just as Enlil is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; you lord, So am I your lady!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story keeps going with Enlil travelling to the god river Idkura. The same scene is repeating: Enlil takes Idkura appearance denied to Ninlil having seen Enlil and she proposes herself for free.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One last time Enlil goes to Siluigi (The Sumerian Charon) and we have the same scene: Enlil shapeshifts and Ninlil offers herself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a result of the sexual activities Ninlil will have Suen the moon god, Nergal and Ninazu, some war/underworld gods, and Enbilulu the god of irrigation (or something approaching).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You have here the usual ambiguous pattern of Sumerian stories. The text is not making clear if Ninlil knows Enlil is impersonating another god or if she is just promiscuous.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Translation taken from [The literature of Ancient Sumer][1]. You can find the same text in the [ETCL][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.amazon.com/Literature-Ancient-Sumer-Jeremy-Black/dp/0199296332&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.1.2.1&amp;charenc=j#" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8983" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="501" RevisionGUID="088c9600-6895-48b4-b1fc-88595adfaf1c" CreationDate="2016-12-19T16:40:16.420" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="If you go by the &quot;Christianized&quot; version of the story, the grail is returned to heaven, because that's where it belongs (it's god's grail, and doesn't belong to humans).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...for in that place was part of the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, that Joseph of Arimathea brought into this land, and there himself lay in that rich bed. And that was the same spear that Longius smote our Lord to the heart; and King Pellam was nigh of Joseph's kin, and that was the most worshipful man that lived in those days, and great pity it was of his hurt, for through that stroke, turned to great dole, tray and tene.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And therewith he [Galahad] kneeled down to-fore the table and made his prayers, and then suddenly his soul departed to Jesu Christ, and a great multitude of angels bare his soul up to heaven, that the two fellows might well behold it. Also the two fellows saw come from heaven an hand, but they saw not the body. And then it came right to the Vessel, and took it and the spear, and so bare it up to heaven. Sithen was there never man so hardy to say that he had seen the Sangreal. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Malory, Thomas, Le Morte d'Arthur [Part 1](http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/1251) and [Part 2](http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/1252))&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8984" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="2103" RevisionGUID="5c669faf-5ce4-4f46-983c-9c5401a9dabe" CreationDate="2016-12-19T17:34:04.247" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="33" />
  <row Id="8985" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1068" RevisionGUID="ef04a0aa-5da9-4544-a9ca-5d7b55785e6e" CreationDate="2016-12-19T17:36:43.893" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|resurrection|osiris|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8986" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2180" RevisionGUID="3459063e-4f8d-4813-8943-c439498382d4" CreationDate="2016-12-19T17:37:03.910" UserId="57" Text="Of the many epithets used to describe Dionysus in Orphic Hymn XXIX, _thrice begotten_ (&quot;τρίγονον&quot; in the original) stands out: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Bacchus I call, loud-sounding and divine,  &#xD;&#xA;Fanatic God, a two-fold shape is thine:  &#xD;&#xA;Thy various names and attributes I sing,  &#xD;&#xA;O, first-born, thrice begotten, Bacchic king:  &#xD;&#xA;Rural, ineffable, two-form'd, obscure,  &#xD;&#xA;Two-horn'd, with ivy crown'd, euion, pure.  &#xD;&#xA;Bull-fac'd, and martial, bearer of the vine,  &#xD;&#xA;Endu'd with counsel prudent and divine:  &#xD;&#xA;Triennial, whom the leaves of vines adorn,  &#xD;&#xA;Of Jove and Proserpine, occultly born.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Immortal dæmon, hear my suppliant voice,  &#xD;&#xA;Give me in blameless plenty to rejoice;  &#xD;&#xA;And listen gracious to my mystic pray'r,  &#xD;&#xA;Surrounded with thy choir of nurses fair.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;The Hymns of Orpheus, Translated by Thomas Taylor&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dionysus is a [dying-and-rising god](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying-and-rising_god), I could understand being called twice-born. But thrice-born? What is the story here?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8987" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2180" RevisionGUID="3459063e-4f8d-4813-8943-c439498382d4" CreationDate="2016-12-19T17:37:03.910" UserId="57" Text="Why would Dionysus be called thrice-born?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8988" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2180" RevisionGUID="3459063e-4f8d-4813-8943-c439498382d4" CreationDate="2016-12-19T17:37:03.910" UserId="57" Text="|greek|resurrection|orphism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8989" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="500" RevisionGUID="6735a150-407e-4772-9e91-5b03f2875368" CreationDate="2016-12-19T17:49:10.957" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="made link more informative" Text="As written [on timelessmyths.com's page on the Vulgate Cycle](http://www.timelessmyths.com/arthurian/vulgate.html),&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Quest of the Holy Grail introduced the new Grail hero: Galahad, the son of Lancelot and Elaine, daughter of King Pelles. Galahad with his two companions, Sir Perceval and Sir Bors were the only Knights of the Round Table to complete the mysterious quest. It is only Galahad achieved the ultimate spiritual enlightenment of the Grail mystery. The story ended with the death of Galahad and Perceval. With Galahad's death, the Grail vanished.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; With the disappearance of the Grail from Britain, it also meant the withdrawal of God's grace from Britain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems quite odd that the Holy Grail, one of the most sacred relics in Arthurian literature, should disappear for all eternity and never re-appear. Does the Vulgate Cycle (also known as the Lancelot-Grail Cycle) discuss a possible return of the Holy Grail to Britain - or anywhere else, for that matter?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8990" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="501" RevisionGUID="ea867b3d-2e32-4a02-9b46-ed6003f27954" CreationDate="2016-12-19T17:52:04.630" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 51 characters in body" Text="According to Mallory's version of the story (which is written after the Vulgate and post-Vulgate Cycles), the grail is returned to heaven, because that's where it belongs (it's god's grail, and doesn't belong to humans).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...for in that place was part of the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, that Joseph of Arimathea brought into this land, and there himself lay in that rich bed. And that was the same spear that Longius smote our Lord to the heart; and King Pellam was nigh of Joseph's kin, and that was the most worshipful man that lived in those days, and great pity it was of his hurt, for through that stroke, turned to great dole, tray and tene.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And therewith he [Galahad] kneeled down to-fore the table and made his prayers, and then suddenly his soul departed to Jesu Christ, and a great multitude of angels bare his soul up to heaven, that the two fellows might well behold it. Also the two fellows saw come from heaven an hand, but they saw not the body. And then it came right to the Vessel, and took it and the spear, and so bare it up to heaven. Sithen was there never man so hardy to say that he had seen the Sangreal. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Malory, Thomas, Le Morte d'Arthur [Part 1](http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/1251) and [Part 2](http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/1252))&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8994" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2179" RevisionGUID="14b31ba2-b2eb-4577-9a38-23cf44de74b8" CreationDate="2016-12-19T18:29:11.040" UserId="967" Comment="added 87 characters in body" Text="#They sacrificed children to both&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From [*Greek Religion and Culture, the Bible and the Ancient Near East*][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Kronos' connection to a human sacrifice was not uncommon. It also attested for Crete in the context of the Kouretes, and in Carthage Kronos was identified with Baal Hammon, the god to whom children were sacrificed... Sophocles already connects Kronos to human sacrifice by barbarians. In all these cases we may assume the influence of Kronos' mythical devouring of his children; in fact, an imperial inscription still calls him &quot;Kronos the child-eater.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But this is definitely not it, as there should still be attributes as @Yannis said.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythworld.wikia.com/wiki/Interpretatio_graeca&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.com/books?id=id2wCQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA84&amp;lpg=PA84&amp;dq=why%20was%20baal%20hammon%20identified%20with%20cronos&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=oWUGJ9jYEc&amp;sig=CU-SvrO7JzvfxOQ2hxhs2WnvgJQ&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwi_iffCw4DRAhVKOCYKHa8sBPIQ6AEIOTAG#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8995" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2179" RevisionGUID="67a71707-3722-4bf6-92d0-6b04d43bb718" CreationDate="2016-12-19T18:50:58.927" UserId="967" Comment="added 820 characters in body" Text="#They sacrificed children to both&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From [*Greek Religion and Culture, the Bible and the Ancient Near East*][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Kronos' connection to a human sacrifice was not uncommon. It also attested for Crete in the context of the Kouretes, and in Carthage Kronos was identified with Baal Hammon, the god to whom children were sacrificed... Sophocles already connects Kronos to human sacrifice by barbarians. In all these cases we may assume the influence of Kronos' mythical devouring of his children; in fact, an imperial inscription still calls him &quot;Kronos the child-eater.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Speculation: Baal-Hammon was also an agriculture god, like Saturn in Roman mythology. That could be a possible connection, but it doesn't equate for Kronos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More Speculation: Wikipedia states that&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The potential cruelty of Saturn was enhanced by his identification with Cronus, known for devouring his own children. He was thus used in translation when referring to gods from other cultures the Romans perceived as severe;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And of course, the Romans **hated** the Carthaginians. So, they would associate severe with a god they hated.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More support to this answer, (credit to @Yannis again), Libyan Greeks were the most friendly with the Carthaginians, and they associated Baal Hammon with Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Cyrenaican Greeks built temples for the Libyan god Amon[, another name for Baal-Hammon] instead of their original god Zeus. They later identified their supreme god Zeus with the Libyan Amon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythworld.wikia.com/wiki/Interpretatio_graeca&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.com/books?id=id2wCQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA84&amp;lpg=PA84&amp;dq=why%20was%20baal%20hammon%20identified%20with%20cronos&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=oWUGJ9jYEc&amp;sig=CU-SvrO7JzvfxOQ2hxhs2WnvgJQ&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwi_iffCw4DRAhVKOCYKHa8sBPIQ6AEIOTAG#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8996" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2105" RevisionGUID="14547526-ff4b-4bb6-af08-29d24d5b8a3d" CreationDate="2016-12-19T20:30:10.017" UserId="2892" Comment="Updated to include some thoughts on the sagas" Text="Chinese Mythology is instructive in this regard.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;History and Mythology were conflated up until the 20th century, so you have cycles, such as the [&quot;Three Kingdoms&quot;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Kingdoms), which are both historical and mythological. [Lord Guan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guan_Yu#Worship_of_Guan_Yu) is a hero of the Three Kingdoms period who famously, posthumously became one of the most revered gods in the Chinese pantheon.  Even the history of his elevation to godhood is conflated with mythology because the sources related to it are not academic, but folkloric, and the apotheosis took place in stages over about 1500 years. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Duke of Zhou](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Zhou), one of the great sages of antiquity and a seminal figure in Chinese history and culture, is a similar figure. The Duke of Zhou is credited with the concept of the &quot;Mandate of Heaven&quot; which led to the overthrow of the Shang Dynasty, itself recounted in work such as &quot;[The Creation of the Gods](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investiture_of_the_Gods)&quot;.  The Duke of Zhou was inadvertently deified as the [God of Dreams](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Zhou#God_of_Dreams) based on a misunderstanding of a quote by [Master Kong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Contemporary Chinese mythology is particularly interesting because we can see mythology forming in historic times before our eyes.  Here I am talking about figures such as [Wong Fei-Hung](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wong_Fei-hung), who was both an historical person, and rose to prominence through the new medium of cinema to occupy a central place in Chinese Heroic Folklore.  For context, there have been literally hundreds of films about Fei-Hung--far more than all of the Western superhero movies combined.  *[I addressed this phenomenon in more detail [here](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2048/to-what-degree-are-depictions-of-beggar-so-influenced-by-the-immortal-li-tieguai)]*.  There is no parallel in the West that I know of.  In the case of Fei-Hung, it was about 25 years after his death that he began to be mythologized in film.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_____________________&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Icelandic Sagas are also worth thinking about.  There you have the documentation of history in the form of stories about heroes.  Although authorship of the sagas is for the most part anonymous, it's a reasonable assumption that they would have been composed in a time not too distant from the events they recount.  I particularly like the Icelandic sagas, not only for their literary quality, but for their concern with settlement and the origin of place-names, which link them to the real world.     " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8997" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2182" RevisionGUID="8c21f5b9-71fa-4852-a904-d99509e9c312" CreationDate="2016-12-19T22:13:02.660" UserId="3157" Text="In Greek mythology, a human woman gave birth to the Minotaur, a &quot;monster&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know timelines get fuzzy with mythology, but are there any other instances of a human woman giving birth to a &quot;monster&quot; that predate the Minotaur myth? In any mythology?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;I'm using &quot;monster&quot; very loosely, hence the quotes. I'm trying to separate them from demi-gods who become heroes or get elevated to gods themselves and could pass as human if not for their extraordinary abilities." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8998" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2182" RevisionGUID="8c21f5b9-71fa-4852-a904-d99509e9c312" CreationDate="2016-12-19T22:13:02.660" UserId="3157" Text="What's the earliest recorded instance of a human woman giving birth to a monster?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="8999" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2182" RevisionGUID="8c21f5b9-71fa-4852-a904-d99509e9c312" CreationDate="2016-12-19T22:13:02.660" UserId="3157" Text="|monsters|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9000" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2182" RevisionGUID="384ea778-6e99-4109-80c0-37ec813ab002" CreationDate="2016-12-19T22:21:08.200" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|monsters|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9002" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="233" RevisionGUID="b344be6a-f7b8-461c-8673-e91a0139a21b" CreationDate="2016-12-19T23:06:00.230" UserId="967" Comment="added 8 characters in body; edited title" Text="Did the Labyrinth have concentric circular walls with passages blocked by radials or it did it have rectangular lines? Or do we simply not know?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9003" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="233" RevisionGUID="b344be6a-f7b8-461c-8673-e91a0139a21b" CreationDate="2016-12-19T23:06:00.230" UserId="967" Comment="added 8 characters in body; edited title" Text="What did the Labyrinth look like?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9006" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2183" RevisionGUID="75fe7d45-b110-4239-bdcd-3a2bd61a9ede" CreationDate="2016-12-20T07:29:20.810" UserId="57" Text="In the Orphic tradition, Dionysus was the son of Zeus and Persephone. As a young boy, he was slain by the Titans, at the behest of Hera. Zeus recovered the boy's heart, made it into a potion and gave it to Semele, who then gave birth to the second incarnation of Dionysus. This tradition includes Egyptian elements, having several elements in parallel with the Osiris myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, in the Hesiodic tradition - the one Diodorus Siculus calls the &quot;Greek account&quot; - the story is a bit different. The Dionysus born of Zeus and Semele is the first incarnation, and Dionysus is reborn from Zeus' thigh when Semele dies. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The epithet &quot;τρίγονον&quot; points to a reconciliation of the two traditions, a fused version of the story. The older Dionysus, Zagreus, was born of Zeus and Persephone and died at the hands of the Titans. He was then born again when his mortal mother died, and then a third time when he emerged from his father's thigh. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is also how Dionysus acquired the epithet _dimetor_ (of two mothers): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He was also called Dimetor, they relate, because the two Dionysi were born of one father, but of two mothers. The younger one also inherited the deeds of the older, and so the men of later times, being unaware of the truth and being deceived because of the identity of their names, thought there had been but one Dionysus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Diodorus Siculus. Library of History (Books III - VIII). Translated by Oldfather, C. H. Loeb Classical Library Volumes 303 and 340. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1935.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9010" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2184" RevisionGUID="b7d533c9-5c75-4ad9-b11b-64868dbd0e45" CreationDate="2016-12-20T13:09:17.743" UserId="666" Text="This is a really good question; it is one which even experts on Norse mythology has trouble finding a good answer for. [Gro Steinsland][1], in *Fornnordisk religion*, lists three different suggested explanations:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. A suggestion by Else Munkdal that Níðhöggr is there as a kind of monstrous transport: the corpses he bears are being moved into the new world to be reborn. &#xD;&#xA; 2. That he is there as proof that even the reborn world is not perfect: the cosmology is cyclical, and conflict will soon begin again, after a short respite.&#xD;&#xA; 3. Steinsland's own suggestion, that Níðhöggr is there as a framing device. Steinsland argues that as the new world is in many ways show to be better, the cosmology has to be linear, and Níðhöggr has no place in the new world order. Instead, he is there to move listeners back to their own world, and the Völva can sink back from trance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From what I can tell, 2. is the most widespread explanation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gro_Steinsland" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9014" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2185" RevisionGUID="68eb5400-a863-4522-bdf9-cfd359f598de" CreationDate="2016-12-20T13:55:14.357" UserId="3230" Text="Can the traditional location of Santa Claus home and workshop be traced to older folklore stories, or is it a modern invention, a piece of [fakelore][1]?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2169/what-is-the-difference-between-folklore-and-fakelore" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9015" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2185" RevisionGUID="68eb5400-a863-4522-bdf9-cfd359f598de" CreationDate="2016-12-20T13:55:14.357" UserId="3230" Text="What is the origin of the story that Santa Claus lives at the North Pole?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9016" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2185" RevisionGUID="68eb5400-a863-4522-bdf9-cfd359f598de" CreationDate="2016-12-20T13:55:14.357" UserId="3230" Text="|origins|christmas|traditions|modern-influence|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9017" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2186" RevisionGUID="7c1e2721-cc6f-494a-8df1-b95947a79acd" CreationDate="2016-12-20T15:07:26.170" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="The idea that Father Christmas, Santa Claus, has a workshop at the North Pole may have originated with illustrator Thomas Nast, whose work was published in _Harper's Weekly_ between 1863 and 1886 and in other publications including on Christmas cards.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In an introduction to a reprint of Nast's collected drawings first published in 1890, his grandson Thomas Nast St Hill states that &quot;_Santa's workshop at the North Pole was (...) a product of Nast's imagination_&quot;. He goes on to say that &quot;_why Santa chose the North Pole as his base of operations has never been quite clear but the chances are that logistics had something to do with it. The North Pole was equidistant from most countries that Santa visited in the Northern Hemisphere_&quot;. As further reasons, he writes that it would be difficult for inquisitive youngsters to spy on him there, and that as a resident of the North Pole he could not be claimed by any country as a national. He also reports that the reindeer and sleigh described by Clement Moore suggested a snowy environment.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This][1] is quite an informative article in the _New York Times_.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/harp/1225.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9018" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2187" RevisionGUID="4226be89-4939-4baa-ba07-3d9e25fd0d9a" CreationDate="2016-12-20T15:14:43.630" UserId="967" Text="#Complicated&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Well, it definitely doesn't claim to be folklore at all, it was just in a book by [Thomas Nast.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/Santa_Claus_1863_Harpers.png (because pic is over 2 MB)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Santaclausville, N[orth] P[ole]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another example related to Nast is by George P. Webster&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;His home through the long summer months, you must know,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Is near the North Pole, in the ice and the snow.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nast drew the Illustrations for the poem, but the 1st example remains to be in 1863.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Nast" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9019" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2186" RevisionGUID="70d2954b-21df-4e68-929c-3996c1a42e6b" CreationDate="2016-12-20T15:36:24.777" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="added 505 characters in body" Text="The idea that Father Christmas, Santa Claus, has a workshop at the North Pole may have originated with illustrator Thomas Nast, whose work was published in _Harper's Weekly_ between 1863 and 1886 and in other publications including on Christmas cards.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In an introduction to a reprint of Nast's collected drawings first published in 1890, his grandson Thomas Nast St Hill states that &quot;_Santa's workshop at the North Pole was (...) a product of Nast's imagination_&quot;. He goes on to say that &quot;_why Santa chose the North Pole as his base of operations has never been quite clear but the chances are that logistics had something to do with it. The North Pole was equidistant from most countries that Santa visited in the Northern Hemisphere_&quot;. As further reasons, he writes that it would be difficult for inquisitive youngsters to spy on him there, and that as a resident of the North Pole he could not be claimed by any country as a national. He also reports that the reindeer and sleigh described by Clement Moore suggested a snowy environment.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This][1] is quite an informative article in the _New York Times_.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is probable that there was also a political reason for the choice of the North Pole. [During the US Civil War of 1861-65, Nast made propaganda for the Northern (Union) side][2]. Some of this featured Santa Claus, and Abraham Lincoln called Nast's use of Santa Claus &quot;_the best recruiting sergeant the North ever had_&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The North Pole is of course the most Northern place in the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/harp/1225.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_in_the_American_Civil_War#Nast_cartoons_and_other_propaganda" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9021" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2186" RevisionGUID="25b905af-257d-41a9-ac7e-92b8252b546b" CreationDate="2016-12-20T15:39:46.477" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="added 70 characters in body" Text="The idea that Father Christmas, Santa Claus, has a workshop at the North Pole may have originated with illustrator Thomas Nast, whose work was published in _Harper's Weekly_ between 1863 and 1886 and in other publications including on Christmas cards.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In an introduction to a reprint of Nast's collected drawings first published in 1890, his grandson Thomas Nast St Hill states that &quot;_Santa's workshop at the North Pole was (...) a product of Nast's imagination_&quot;. He goes on to say that &quot;_why Santa chose the North Pole as his base of operations has never been quite clear but the chances are that logistics had something to do with it. The North Pole was equidistant from most countries that Santa visited in the Northern Hemisphere_&quot;. As further reasons, he writes that it would be difficult for inquisitive youngsters to spy on him there, and that as a resident of the North Pole he could not be claimed by any country as a national. He also reports that the reindeer and sleigh described by Clement Moore suggested a snowy environment.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This][1] is quite an informative article in the _New York Times_.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is probable that there was also a political reason for the choice of the North Pole. [During the US Civil War of 1861-65, Nast made propaganda for the Northern (Union) side][2]. Some of this featured Santa Claus, and Abraham Lincoln called Nast's use of Santa Claus &quot;_the best recruiting sergeant the North ever had_&quot;. Santa was in a way being portrayed as a kind of spirit of the North.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The North Pole is of course the most Northern place in the world. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/harp/1225.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_in_the_American_Civil_War#Nast_cartoons_and_other_propaganda" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9022" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2186" RevisionGUID="b6d0d341-9af9-459d-86f5-8b77de09a5aa" CreationDate="2016-12-20T15:48:56.350" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="added 70 characters in body" Text="#Thomas Nast and the Northern side in the US Civil War&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The idea that Father Christmas, Santa Claus, has a workshop at the North Pole may have originated with illustrator Thomas Nast, whose work was published in _Harper's Weekly_ between 1863 and 1886 and in other publications including on Christmas cards.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In an introduction to a reprint of Nast's collected drawings first published in 1890, his grandson Thomas Nast St Hill states that &quot;_Santa's workshop at the North Pole was (...) a product of Nast's imagination_&quot;. He goes on to say that &quot;_why Santa chose the North Pole as his base of operations has never been quite clear but the chances are that logistics had something to do with it. The North Pole was equidistant from most countries that Santa visited in the Northern Hemisphere_&quot;. As further reasons, he writes that it would be difficult for inquisitive youngsters to spy on him there, and that as a resident of the North Pole he could not be claimed by any country as a national. He also reports that the reindeer and sleigh described by Clement Moore suggested a snowy environment.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This][1] is quite an informative article in the _New York Times_.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is probable that there was also a political reason for the choice of the North Pole. [During the US Civil War of 1861-65, Nast made propaganda for the Northern (Union) side][2]. Some of this featured Santa Claus, and Abraham Lincoln called Nast's use of Santa Claus &quot;_the best recruiting sergeant the North ever had_&quot;. Santa was in a way being portrayed as a kind of spirit of the North.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The North Pole is of course the most Northern place in the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meanwhile on the Southern (Confederate) side, the _Richmond Examiner_ described Santa in negative terms as &quot;a Dutch toy monger&quot; who was a New England cleaning worker and a Hottentot who had nothing to do with traditional Virginian celebrations of Christmas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One interesting source is Kevin Rawlings's article on Christmas during the civil war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/harp/1225.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_in_the_American_Civil_War#Nast_cartoons_and_other_propaganda" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9023" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="48" RevisionGUID="8122572f-917f-4f5f-a3d3-8293514ce475" CreationDate="2016-12-20T15:49:47.523" UserId="3230" Comment="added christmas tag" Text="|norse|christmas|modern-influence|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9024" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="48" RevisionGUID="8122572f-917f-4f5f-a3d3-8293514ce475" CreationDate="2016-12-20T15:49:47.523" Comment="Proposed by 3230 approved by 967, 2892 edit id of 399" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9025" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2186" RevisionGUID="864d1ca0-8bbf-4246-8c51-9f3a1f58eea4" CreationDate="2016-12-20T15:55:58.310" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="added 108 characters in body" Text="#Thomas Nast and the Northern side in the US Civil War&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The idea that Father Christmas, Santa Claus, has a workshop at the North Pole may have originated with illustrator Thomas Nast, whose work was published in _Harper's Weekly_ between 1863 and 1886 and in other publications including on Christmas cards.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In an introduction to a reprint of Nast's collected drawings first published in 1890, his grandson Thomas Nast St Hill states that &quot;_Santa's workshop at the North Pole was (...) a product of Nast's imagination_&quot;. He goes on to say that &quot;_why Santa chose the North Pole as his base of operations has never been quite clear but the chances are that logistics had something to do with it. The North Pole was equidistant from most countries that Santa visited in the Northern Hemisphere_&quot;. As further reasons, he writes that it would be difficult for inquisitive youngsters to spy on him there, and that as a resident of the North Pole he could not be claimed by any country as a national. He also reports that the reindeer and sleigh described by Clement Moore suggested a snowy environment.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This][1] is quite an informative article in the _New York Times_.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is probable that there was also a political reason for the choice of the North Pole. [During the US Civil War of 1861-65, Nast made propaganda for the Northern (Union) side][2]. Some of this featured Santa Claus, and Abraham Lincoln called Nast's use of Santa Claus &quot;_the best recruiting sergeant the North ever had_&quot;. Santa was in a way being portrayed as a kind of spirit of the North.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The North Pole is of course the most Northern place in the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meanwhile on the Southern (Confederate) side, the _Richmond Examiner_ described Santa in negative terms as &quot;a Dutch toy monger&quot; who was a New England cleaning worker and a Hottentot who had nothing to do with traditional Virginian celebrations of Christmas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One interesting source is [Kevin Rawlings's article on Christmas during the civil war][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/harp/1225.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_in_the_American_Civil_War#Nast_cartoons_and_other_propaganda&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.historynet.com/christmas-in-the-civil-war-december-1998-civil-war-times-feature.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9027" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="342" RevisionGUID="d769e7fc-4485-4c6f-8322-c0ed5fda201d" CreationDate="2016-12-20T17:11:32.217" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|odin|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9031" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2188" RevisionGUID="9853d186-a57f-4c7b-8588-7023a19336f7" CreationDate="2016-12-20T18:50:47.450" UserId="57" Text="Orphic Hymn I to Prothyrea (&quot;Προθυραία&quot;), identifies Artemis as the goddess of childbirth, and relegates Eileithyia to the role of &quot;assisting goddess&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; O venerable goddess, hear my pray'r,  &#xD;&#xA;For labour pains are thy peculiar care;  &#xD;&#xA;in thee, when stretch'd upon the bed of grief,  &#xD;&#xA;The sex as in a mirror view relief.  &#xD;&#xA;Guard of the race, endued with gentle mind,  &#xD;&#xA;To helpless youth, benevolent and kind;  &#xD;&#xA;Benignant nourisher; great Nature's key  &#xD;&#xA;Belongs to no divinity but thee.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thou dwell'st with all immanifest to sight,  &#xD;&#xA;And solemn festivals are thy delight.  &#xD;&#xA;Thine is the talk to loose the virgin's zone,  &#xD;&#xA;And thou in ev'ry work art seen and known.  &#xD;&#xA;With births you sympathize, tho' pleas'd to see  &#xD;&#xA;The numerous offspring of fertility;  &#xD;&#xA;When rack'd with nature's pangs and sore distress'd,  &#xD;&#xA;The sex invoke thee, as the soul's sure rest;  &#xD;&#xA;For thou alone can'st give relief to pain,  &#xD;&#xA;Which art attempts to ease, but tries in vain;  &#xD;&#xA;Assisting goddess, venerable pow'r,  &#xD;&#xA;Who bring'st relief in labour's dreadful hour;  &#xD;&#xA;Hear, blessed Dian, and accept my pray'r,  &#xD;&#xA;And make the infant race thy constant care.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;The Hymns of Orpheus, translated by Thomas Taylor&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why would the Greeks associate a virgin goddess with childbirth? Is the association limited to the Orphic tradition? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9032" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2188" RevisionGUID="9853d186-a57f-4c7b-8588-7023a19336f7" CreationDate="2016-12-20T18:50:47.450" UserId="57" Text="Why would Artemis be associated with childbirth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9033" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2188" RevisionGUID="9853d186-a57f-4c7b-8588-7023a19336f7" CreationDate="2016-12-20T18:50:47.450" UserId="57" Text="|greek|orphism|artemis|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9034" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2189" RevisionGUID="a3d24505-5a48-465b-b58b-87ada32177a7" CreationDate="2016-12-20T18:52:13.897" UserId="2892" Text="The direct answer is because she was born first and assisted with the birth of her brother Apollo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(In terms of limitation to the Orphic tradition, I don't know if there is a definite answer in that this association may have been more widely held as a folk belief.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9035" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2189" RevisionGUID="9fa5e6fe-5dd1-4858-b4f8-c02819a02e30" CreationDate="2016-12-20T19:11:32.533" UserId="2892" Comment="tempered the phrasing pending further research into the origin of this commonly accepted answer" Text="It is commonly believed that she was born first and assisted with the birth of her brother Apollo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(In terms of limitation to the Orphic tradition, I don't know if there is a definite answer in that this association may have been more widely held as a folk belief.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9037" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2188" RevisionGUID="1f8b57c2-cc31-484e-aad2-4cc0d5c046ef" CreationDate="2016-12-20T19:42:57.913" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="A great question, but the use of the conditional mood in the title was confusing." Text="Why is the virgin goddess Artemis associated with childbirth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9038" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2188" RevisionGUID="1f8b57c2-cc31-484e-aad2-4cc0d5c046ef" CreationDate="2016-12-20T19:42:57.913" Comment="Proposed by 1618 approved by 57 edit id of 400" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9039" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="1251" RevisionGUID="1a9fa1be-5500-4d04-bbb3-122e35d2f1dd" CreationDate="2016-12-20T19:54:43.787" UserId="57" Comment="34" />
  <row Id="9040" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2189" RevisionGUID="3cf4059f-4b37-4d13-b7dc-457258f6c2aa" CreationDate="2016-12-20T19:55:41.250" UserId="2892" Comment="provided sources for the answer" Text="It is commonly accepted that she was born first and assisted with the birth of her brother Apollo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Two quick sources I pulled off of Theoi:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt; &quot;Of the daughters of Koios . . . Leto had relations with Zeus, for which she was hounded by Hera all over the earth. She finally reached Delos and gave birth to Artemis, who thereupon helped her deliver Apollon. Artemis became a practised huntress and remained a virgin.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 1. 21 (trans. Aldrich) (Greek mythographer C2nd A.D.)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt; &quot;Even in the hour when I [Artemis] was born the Moirai (Fates) ordained that I should be their helper [women in childbirth], forasmuch as my mother suffered no pain either when she gave me birth or when she carried me win her womb, but without travail put me from her body.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Callimachus, Hymn 3 to Artemis 22 ff (trans. Mair) (Greek poet C3rd B.C.)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of limitation to the Orphic tradition, I don't know if there is a definite answer in that this association was almost certainly more widely held as a folk belief.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9042" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2180" RevisionGUID="a4a40651-0fea-4719-a2bb-a6b805a631ec" CreationDate="2016-12-20T20:07:49.033" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="Fixed grammar." Text="Why was Dionysus, a dying and rising god, called thrice-born?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9043" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2180" RevisionGUID="a4a40651-0fea-4719-a2bb-a6b805a631ec" CreationDate="2016-12-20T20:07:49.033" Comment="Proposed by 1618 approved by 57 edit id of 403" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9044" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2178" RevisionGUID="8c58e28e-cace-4733-a072-2f8413d0af3f" CreationDate="2016-12-20T20:08:01.220" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="Fixed grammar." Text="Why was Baal Hammon identified with Cronus/Saturn?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9045" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2178" RevisionGUID="8c58e28e-cace-4733-a072-2f8413d0af3f" CreationDate="2016-12-20T20:08:01.220" Comment="Proposed by 1618 approved by 57 edit id of 402" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9046" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2182" RevisionGUID="1bdff3ed-81e9-491c-af8b-26a03e2775b8" CreationDate="2016-12-20T20:08:19.553" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="&quot;Earliest recorded instance&quot; implies actuality; &quot;earliest recorded story&quot; is what the question is about." Text="What's the earliest recorded story of a human woman giving birth to a monster?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9047" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2182" RevisionGUID="1bdff3ed-81e9-491c-af8b-26a03e2775b8" CreationDate="2016-12-20T20:08:19.553" Comment="Proposed by 1618 approved by 57 edit id of 401" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9048" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2178" RevisionGUID="55542f41-2268-498e-a4ff-ceb38d483ec6" CreationDate="2016-12-20T20:13:25.797" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|comparative|roman|phoenician|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9049" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2189" RevisionGUID="63a383a1-8dda-4fa0-a82d-fbf218073944" CreationDate="2016-12-20T20:22:06.777" UserId="2892" Comment="added 512 characters in body" Text="It is commonly accepted that she was born first and assisted with the birth of her brother Apollo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Two quick sources I pulled off of Theoi:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt; &quot;Of the daughters of Koios . . . Leto had relations with Zeus, for which she was hounded by Hera all over the earth. She finally reached Delos and gave birth to Artemis, who thereupon helped her deliver Apollon. Artemis became a practised huntress and remained a virgin.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 1. 21 (trans. Aldrich) (Greek mythographer C2nd A.D.)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is another explanation regarding the painless labor of Leto:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Even in the hour when I [Artemis] was born the Moirai (Fates) ordained that I should be their helper [women in childbirth], forasmuch as my mother suffered no pain either when she gave me birth or when she carried me win her womb, but without travail put me from her body.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Callimachus, Hymn 3 to Artemis 22 ff (trans. Mair) (Greek poet C3rd B.C.)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, these two sources may be later attempts to reconcile the association of the *virgin* form of Artemis with childbirth.  In earlier forms, most famously at the [Temple at Artemis at Ephesus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Artemis#Ephesian_Artemis), she is depicted in a form strongly associated with fertility, and may have been a mother godess until her status changed to virgin daughter in the Olympian pantheon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of limitation to the Orphic tradition, I don't know if there is a definite answer in that this association was almost certainly more widely held as a folk belief.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9050" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2190" RevisionGUID="27b2f8de-8d02-4fcd-9b9c-9354ae2aa0a2" CreationDate="2016-12-20T20:32:57.063" UserId="666" Text="One of the original holidays that was merged together to create the modern Christmas is Yule (in Scandinavian languages, Christmas is still called &quot;jul&quot; or &quot;jól&quot;); this was apparently celebrated around midwinter; the term to &quot;drink yule&quot; appears in the poem [Hrafnsm%C3%A1l][1] dated to the 10th century, but it is unclear exactly what the celebrations would have entailed. &quot;Yule&quot; also appears sometimes as a general term for &quot;feast&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anyway, Odin (this is the name mostly used when speaking of him as he appears in norse sources; Wodin is the name used on the continent) was known by [a whole bunch of names][2], and among those, two were &quot;Jólfaðr&quot; ('Yule father') and &quot;Jólnir&quot; ('Yule figure').&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is about as far the primary sources will take you. If you want to speculate, you can note things like Odin having a long white beard, or that his horse could travel through air. You could also note that another of his bynames were &quot;Óski&quot;, 'God of Wishes, Wished For', but well, that's all there really is: a clear link to Christmas, but very little to suggest that he has actually has an influence on Santa Claus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrafnsm%C3%A1l&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_names_of_Odin" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9051" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="48" RevisionGUID="171a4da5-4949-4a50-92dd-ef3c694ff389" CreationDate="2016-12-20T20:34:23.913" UserId="967" Comment="Odin is a much more recognizable name" Text="What is the link between Odin and Santa Claus? How does Santa trace his origins to the Norse god?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9052" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="48" RevisionGUID="171a4da5-4949-4a50-92dd-ef3c694ff389" CreationDate="2016-12-20T20:34:23.913" UserId="967" Comment="Odin is a much more recognizable name" Text="What is the link between Odin and Santa Claus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9053" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2191" RevisionGUID="19a744de-3358-4e4b-b9b1-e862185fcd95" CreationDate="2016-12-20T20:34:29.437" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="Kissing under the mistletoe is said to have been a custom at the Roman Saturnalia festival, held at the time of the winter solstice; and also at its forerunner the Greek Kronia festival, which was held in the summer." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9055" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2189" RevisionGUID="5a132253-e23e-43a1-b3f4-1dffb1fef2da" CreationDate="2016-12-20T20:56:07.210" UserId="2892" Comment="added 11 characters in body" Text="It is commonly accepted that she was born first and assisted with the birth of her brother Apollo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Two quick sources I pulled off of Theoi:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt; &quot;Of the daughters of Koios . . . Leto had relations with Zeus, for which she was hounded by Hera all over the earth. She finally reached Delos and gave birth to Artemis, who thereupon helped her deliver Apollon. Artemis became a practised huntress and remained a virgin.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 1. 21 (trans. Aldrich) (Greek mythographer C2nd A.D.)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is another explanation regarding the painless labor of Leto:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Even in the hour when I [Artemis] was born the Moirai (Fates) ordained that I should be their helper [women in childbirth], forasmuch as my mother suffered no pain either when she gave me birth or when she carried me win her womb, but without travail put me from her body.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Callimachus, Hymn 3 to Artemis 22 ff (trans. Mair) (Greek poet C3rd B.C.)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, these two sources may be later attempts to reconcile the association of the *virgin* form of Artemis with childbirth.  In earlier forms, most famously at the [Temple at Artemis at Ephesus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Artemis#Ephesian_Artemis), she is depicted in a manner strongly associated with fertility, and may have been a mother goddess until her status changed to that of virgin daughter in the Olympian pantheon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of limitation to the Orphic tradition, I don't know if there is a definite answer in that this association was almost certainly more widely held as a folk belief.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9058" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2187" RevisionGUID="3f8151ea-0db1-4d30-b633-a9438cb86172" CreationDate="2016-12-20T23:47:43.223" UserId="2924" Comment="Inline reduced resolution image, as provided by Wikimedia Commons; Leave link to full size image; Add link to description page on Wikimenia Commons." Text="#Complicated&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Well, it definitely doesn't claim to be folklore at all, it was just in a book by [Thomas Nast.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Santa Claus 1863 Harpers][2]][3]  &#xD;&#xA;(Linked [full size image][3] is over 7 MiB; [Wikimedia Commons page][4]; image is in the public domain)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Santaclausville, N[orth] P[ole]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another example related to Nast is by George P. Webster&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;His home through the long summer months, you must know,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Is near the North Pole, in the ice and the snow.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nast drew the Illustrations for the poem, but the 1st example remains to be in 1863.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Nast&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/grfap.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/Santa_Claus_1863_Harpers.png&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Santa_Claus_1863_Harpers.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9059" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2187" RevisionGUID="3f8151ea-0db1-4d30-b633-a9438cb86172" CreationDate="2016-12-20T23:47:43.223" Comment="Proposed by 2924 approved by -1 edit id of 404" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9060" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2187" RevisionGUID="d8e151ab-6012-4cf5-bae6-5f2c895d6e2e" CreationDate="2016-12-20T23:47:43.223" UserId="2892" Comment="Inline reduced resolution image, as provided by Wikimedia Commons; Leave link to full size image; Add link to description page on Wikimenia Commons." Text="#Complicated&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Well, it definitely doesn't claim to be folklore at all, it was just in a book by [Thomas Nast.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Santa Claus 1863 Harpers][2]][3]  &#xD;&#xA;(Linked [full size image][3] is over 7 MiB; [Wikimedia Commons page][4]; image is in the public domain)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Santaclausville, N[orth] P[ole]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another example related to Nast is by George P. Webster:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;His home through the long summer months, you must know,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Is near the North Pole, in the ice and the snow.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nast drew the Illustrations for the poem, but the 1863 example remains the 1st.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Nast&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/grfap.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/Santa_Claus_1863_Harpers.png&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Santa_Claus_1863_Harpers.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9061" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2185" RevisionGUID="c7d5d76a-8bc8-4435-b860-c6c5ae02b6e6" CreationDate="2016-12-21T01:15:19.787" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="fakelore used incorrectly" Text="Can the traditional location of Santa Claus home and workshop be traced to older folklore stories, or is it a modern invention?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9062" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2185" RevisionGUID="c7d5d76a-8bc8-4435-b860-c6c5ae02b6e6" CreationDate="2016-12-21T01:15:19.787" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="fakelore used incorrectly" Text="|origins|christmas|traditions|modern-influence|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9066" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2193" RevisionGUID="c9f60dac-d78a-48b6-a4f8-038b1839841a" CreationDate="2016-12-21T03:19:00.583" UserId="967" Text="I'm looking for a greek myth where an immortal god, no matter how minor, turns into a mortal immediately.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Things I am not looking for:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - A temporary punishment- Apollo serving Admetus&#xD;&#xA; - A god who is forced into servitude/captured forever but nor exactly mortal-Persephone's capture." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9067" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2193" RevisionGUID="c9f60dac-d78a-48b6-a4f8-038b1839841a" CreationDate="2016-12-21T03:19:00.583" UserId="967" Text="Are there any greek myths of a god permanently turning into a mortal?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9068" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2193" RevisionGUID="c9f60dac-d78a-48b6-a4f8-038b1839841a" CreationDate="2016-12-21T03:19:00.583" UserId="967" Text="|greek|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9071" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2194" RevisionGUID="34db3f6d-8058-4be3-9f37-b5b8ae928ba2" CreationDate="2016-12-21T07:08:52.040" UserId="14" Text="There are three prominent Hindu philosophies today: Advaita or monism, Dvaita or dualism, and Visistadvaita or qualified monism.  Now the chief exponent of Dvaita was the 13th century philosopher Madhvacharya, but that's not all he was.  He was a Vaishnava - someone who believes that the god Vishnu is supreme - but his brand of Vaishnavism was rather peculiar. Madhvacharya thought that Vayu the god of wind, whom he equated with the Mukhya Prana or chief vital breath, was a close associate of Vishnu.  He even considered himself to be an incarnation of Vayu.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question is, has there been any scholarship as to the origins of Madhvacharya's Vayu-centric Vaishnava worldview?  Did Vayu start being associated with Visnnu before the time of Madhvacharya, or was this an innovation in Vaishnavism introduced by Madhvacharya?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now Vayu, like other elemental gods like Indra god of thunder, Agni god of fire, and Surya the sun god, was worshiped more in the Vedic period, but now they're hardly worshiped except in certain Hindu rituals.  But was there a revitalization of Vayu worship during the Middle Ages?  If so that might have caused Madhvacharya to incorporate Vayu into his system.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the record, I'm a Hindu and a Vaishnava, but I'm not a follower of Madhvacharya." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9072" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2194" RevisionGUID="34db3f6d-8058-4be3-9f37-b5b8ae928ba2" CreationDate="2016-12-21T07:08:52.040" UserId="14" Text="How did Vayu the wind god start being associated with Vishnu?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9073" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2194" RevisionGUID="34db3f6d-8058-4be3-9f37-b5b8ae928ba2" CreationDate="2016-12-21T07:08:52.040" UserId="14" Text="|hindu|history|wind|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9077" PostHistoryTypeId="8" PostId="2185" RevisionGUID="ca64ea82-380a-4c8e-81f7-8a1cc08ac4b2" CreationDate="2016-12-21T09:54:59.677" UserId="3230" Comment="Rollback to [68eb5400-a863-4522-bdf9-cfd359f598de]" Text="Can the traditional location of Santa Claus home and workshop be traced to older folklore stories, or is it a modern invention, a piece of [fakelore][1]?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2169/what-is-the-difference-between-folklore-and-fakelore" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9078" PostHistoryTypeId="9" PostId="2185" RevisionGUID="ca64ea82-380a-4c8e-81f7-8a1cc08ac4b2" CreationDate="2016-12-21T09:54:59.677" UserId="3230" Comment="Rollback to [68eb5400-a863-4522-bdf9-cfd359f598de]" Text="|origins|christmas|traditions|modern-influence|" />
  <row Id="9083" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="282" RevisionGUID="7ff3a888-f1e2-4fc7-b1c7-d8a4b305b416" CreationDate="2016-12-21T12:37:40.437" UserId="183" Comment="35" />
  <row Id="9084" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2107" RevisionGUID="9df8c42b-4bc8-411a-8b34-3064def662d0" CreationDate="2016-12-21T14:34:29.623" UserDisplayName="user3198" Comment="fixed grammar " Text="That is a great question!!!&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And I will give here a description of 3 cases.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sumer&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Sumerians myths are closely formed by 2 epics/cycles/matters/stories. The Cycle of Aratta, and the Cycle of Gilgamesh (not to be confused with the Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh).&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The cycle (I will use cycle here) of Aratta is telling the story of the fight between the City of Ur and the city of Aratta and the defeat of Aratta. It is formed by 4 different stories. In the first one, the conflict is solved by psychological warfare and diplomacy. In the 3 others by traditional war. It involves the legendary king Enmersikar, and the hero Lugalbanda (father of Gilgamesh).&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now let's talk about history. Sumer (and to some extend Mesopotamia) was not a kingdom in modern sense but a bunch of city states with no real cohesion, very similar to the Greek City states. We know for sure they was in constant war status/rivalry between each others. One of the story with Gilgamesh shows us Ur in conflict with another city.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;On that the Cycle of Aratta truly reflect the war status in Sumer. It shows us that Sumerians was aware of diplomacy and war as mean to subdue foe. Now, per se, both Sumerians cycles are recent, they date from late Ur dynasty shortly before the end of Sumer. They are obviously propaganda material made by late Urian rulers wanted to show the strength of Ur and their own legitimacy.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;To what extend does it reflect an actual conflict? Considering this is late writing, we can't tell, and the diplomatic writing in 3000 B.C. are let's face it inexistent. Gilgamesh was dead from a long time and the fight between Ur and Aratta long finished. But as with later Troy we can safely assume, from our knowledge of the status of Sumer, that a war between Ur and Aratta could have happened. We know also Ur was lacking some resources (stones here) and subduing such a city was of interest. So we can assume for Sumer both their great cycles are based on &quot;related historical events&quot;. And also they totally reflect something: the constant war status that will plague Sumer and finally led it to its demise when king Hammurabi of Babylon put an end to Sumer.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;**Suggested reading:** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The [Matter of Aratta][1] by Leo Oppenheim&#xD;&#xA; - [King Hammurabi][2] by Marc Van de Mieroop, I give this one just because it is one of the first documented king we have and this recent edition includes the recent find of the Mari's archives. It gives you a good idea of the true warfare status during Hammurabi's time as well as how he solved conflict with wars and diplomacy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Egypt&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;I suspect anyone know about Horus, Osiris, Ra and such...&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The first thing to see is Egypt is 2500/3000 years of history. Comparing predynastic time, Old Kingdom, Middle Kingdom and New Kingdom is at best funny. Here is a predynastic document (the Narmer tablet):&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Anyone will recognize Horus here as a falcon. The bulls we see are the Goddess Bat. And basically it is known that it depicts the unification of the two Kingdoms of Egypt (Upper and Lower) during Narmer's reign (before the first dynasty, so during dynasty 0).&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Is is suspected that the mythological fight between Horus and Set is a representation of the fight between Upper and Lower Egypt (the two kingdoms). Notice the tablet here does no represent Set, when it links Narmer with Horus (see the falcon). So to what extend the fight between Horus and Set could represent that unification. Knowing that it is unclear who conquered what (Upper to Lower or Lower to Upper) this is an uneasy task.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Horus has vastly be a god related to the Pharaoh. It is so old that even in predynastic time He is there. One thing is sure. Most of the legend surrounding Horus (and Set) are post Old Kingdom (post pyramid text). At a time when Egypt is largely two Kingdoms. What could be the chance that Egyptian in Middle Kingdom, who was everything but historians, knew anything about the unification events?&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Suggested reading:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Ancient Egypt: Anatomy of a Civilization][4] by Barry Kemp, not an easy book, but one the best I have read.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Europe&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;Finally let's talk a little bit about Europe. During Middle Age there is the infamous Matters, Italian, French and English. The English one are about King Arthur which probably was an historical figure. Note that on a pure historical way, talking about 'French' and 'English' is quite a mistake. English Arthurian cycle really start with the Plantagenet, Both Henri II Plantagenet (founder) and his wife Alienor of Aquitaine was both French and the main writers Chretien of Troyes is French.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;But we don't know a lot about the historical Arthur. Fortunately for us the French Matter is about King Charles. And here we know. Let's give a short summary. The Roman empire is conquered by Germanics Barbarians (Ostrogoth, Wisigoth, Franks, etc.). One of them the Franks (modern France come from them) will give two great dynasties first the Merovingians (cf. The Matrix movies) then the Carolingians. One of the main Carolingian figure is Charlemagne the subject of French Matter.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Charlemagne is well known for 3 features:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - He became Emperor, de facto becoming the Roman successor&#xD;&#xA; - He vanquished the Saxons, that neither the Romans nor the Merovingians managed to handle&#xD;&#xA; - He tried to conquered the Muslim Spain, this one is a subject of the French Matter&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On a pure historical fact, the conquest of Spain was a political gesture (toward Rome and the Pope) as well as promise of richness. One of the greatest feature of Charlemagne was to understand this was an horrible mistake and quickly withdraw and concentrate on the Saxons, the goal of his life. This actually shaped Europe between England, France, Spain, and the Germanic Empire. Would he had tried to stay in Spain, history would be vastly different. His withdrawal from Spain is on the same level as the heroic Greek's resistance against the Persians.Greece outshined the world after the Medic Wars. Without the Greeks stopping the Persians, no Socrates, no Plato, no Euclid (No maths, no physics, no philosophy). Considering Charlemagne could not handle both the Saxons and Spain, no one can express how smart a gesture this was.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;One of the greatest song of Charlemagne is about his retreat from Spain when his rear army, lead By Roland was attacked and defeated and Roland exploding his throat by blowing his horn. This was an historical event, about a &quot;Frankish defeat&quot; (put that on the same level as the Thermopilae is a Greek defeat). Now the heroic features presented in the Matter are totally unreal (even Roland's death...), but the event is. We have here the chance to track the difference between the Matter presenting a defeat as a final victory and the purely historical &quot;defeat&quot;.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;We can safely here do so safe comparison between Arthurian Matter which perhaps used an historical figure (A guy named Arthur). And the Charles Matter which used an historical figure that we know. In both case, anyway, the resulting figure appears very different. You do not have an idea of the politics or mind of the people of Arthurian or Charles time. Those are Chivalry novels. On the same way we can assume the Cycle of Gilgamesh/Aratta are far from the preoccupation of Gilgamesh.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;**Suggested reading**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The [Song of Roland][5], as I can read old French I unfortunately cannot give any good English translation, I picked one.&#xD;&#xA; - [ Charlemagne: The Formation of a European Identity][6] by Rosamond McKitterick, one great English study.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sumary&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do myths/legends a come from actual historical events? If the song of Roland actually did, if the Iliad and the Odyssey did, The Medic Wars was covered only by Herodotus. Knowing their historical importance vastly outlive the Trojan war.If the Cycle of Aratta or Gilgamesh could cover historical events, we don't know what those events are, and anyway it was written long after those events, and in such a style this makes it questionable.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;We know finally something, when Herodotus talked about Egypt he is telling us something important about what the Egyptians knew of their history in 450 BC: They were parroting their not well read books! The Khufhu (Cheops) they are talking about is the one we could read the story in their books.&lt;BR&gt; &#xD;&#xA;In case of the Matters written when writings were more common, the actual use of historical material (and such this sliding from history to myth) is obvious.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.amazon.com/Epics-Sumerian-Kings-Writings-Ancient/dp/1589830830&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.amazon.com/King-Hammurabi-Babylon-Marc-Mieroop/dp/1405126604&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/W9YbY.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Egypt-Anatomy-Civilization-Second/dp/0415235502&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.amazon.com/Song-Roland-Penguin-Classics/dp/0140445323&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.amazon.com/Charlemagne-Formation-European-Rosamond-McKitterick/dp/0521716454" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9085" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2107" RevisionGUID="9df8c42b-4bc8-411a-8b34-3064def662d0" CreationDate="2016-12-21T14:34:29.623" Comment="Proposed by 3198 approved by -1 edit id of 405" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9086" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2107" RevisionGUID="8bc495c5-96a1-47ab-bf99-d31c01b84b62" CreationDate="2016-12-21T14:34:29.623" UserId="111" Comment="fixed grammar " Text="That is a great question!!!&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And I will give here a description of 3 cases.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sumer&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Sumerians myths are closely formed by 2 epics/cycles/matters/stories. The Cycle of Aratta, and the Cycle of Gilgamesh (not to be confused with the Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh).&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The cycle (I will use cycle here) of Aratta is telling the story of the fight between the City of Ur and the city of Aratta and the defeat of Aratta. It is formed by 4 different stories. In the first one, the conflict is solved by psychological warfare and diplomacy. In the 3 others by traditional war. It involves the legendary king Enmersikar, and the hero Lugalbanda (father of Gilgamesh).&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now let's talk about history. Sumer (and to some extend Mesopotamia) was not a kingdom in modern sense but a bunch of city states with no real cohesion, very similar to the Greek City states. We know for sure they was in constant war status/rivalry between each others. One of the story with Gilgamesh shows us Ur in conflict with another city.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;On that the Cycle of Aratta truly reflect the war status in Sumer. It shows us that Sumerians was aware of diplomacy and war as mean to subdue foe. Now, per se, both Sumerians cycles are recent, they date from late Ur dynasty shortly before the end of Sumer. They are obviously propaganda material made by late Urian rulers wanted to show the strength of Ur and their own legitimacy.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;To what extend does it reflect an actual conflict? Considering this is late writing, we can't tell, and the diplomatic writing in 3000 B.C. are let's face it inexistent. Gilgamesh was dead from a long time and the fight between Ur and Aratta long finished. But as with later Troy we can safely assume, from our knowledge of the status of Sumer, that a war between Ur and Aratta could have happened. We know also Ur was lacking some resources (stones here) and subduing such a city was of interest. So we can assume for Sumer both their great cycles are based on &quot;related historical events&quot;. And also they totally reflect something: the constant war status that will plague Sumer and finally led it to its demise when king Hammurabi of Babylon put an end to Sumer.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;**Suggested reading:** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The [Matter of Aratta][1] by Leo Oppenheim&#xD;&#xA; - [King Hammurabi][2] by Marc Van de Mieroop, I give this one just because it is one of the first documented king we have and this recent edition includes the recent find of the Mari's archives. It gives you a good idea of the true warfare status during Hammurabi's time as well as how he solved conflict with wars and diplomacy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Egypt&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;I suspect anyone know about Horus, Osiris, Ra and such...&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The first thing to see is Egypt is 2500/3000 years of history. Comparing predynastic time, Old Kingdom, Middle Kingdom and New Kingdom is at best funny. Here is a predynastic document (the Narmer tablet):  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Anyone will recognize Horus here as a falcon. The bulls we see are the Goddess Bat. And basically it is known that it depicts the unification of the two Kingdoms of Egypt (Upper and Lower) during Narmer's reign (before the first dynasty, so during dynasty 0).&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Is is suspected that the mythological fight between Horus and Set is a representation of the fight between Upper and Lower Egypt (the two kingdoms). Notice the tablet here does no represent Set, when it links Narmer with Horus (see the falcon). So to what extend the fight between Horus and Set could represent that unification. Knowing that it is unclear who conquered what (Upper to Lower or Lower to Upper) this is an uneasy task.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Horus has vastly be a god related to the Pharaoh. It is so old that even in predynastic time He is there. One thing is sure. Most of the legend surrounding Horus (and Set) are post Old Kingdom (post pyramid text). At a time when Egypt is largely two Kingdoms. What could be the chance that Egyptian in Middle Kingdom, who was everything but historians, knew anything about the unification events?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Suggested reading:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Ancient Egypt: Anatomy of a Civilization][4] by Barry Kemp, not an easy book, but one the best I have read.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Europe&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;Finally let's talk a little bit about Europe. During Middle Age there is the infamous Matters, Italian, French and English. The English one are about King Arthur which probably was an historical figure. Note that on a pure historical way, talking about 'French' and 'English' is quite a mistake. English Arthurian cycle really start with the Plantagenet, Both Henri II Plantagenet (founder) and his wife Alienor of Aquitaine was both French and the main writers Chretien of Troyes is French.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;But we don't know a lot about the historical Arthur. Fortunately for us the French Matter is about King Charles. And here we know. Let's give a short summary. The Roman empire is conquered by Germanics Barbarians (Ostrogoth, Wisigoth, Franks, etc.). One of them the Franks (modern France come from them) will give two great dynasties first the Merovingians (cf. The Matrix movies) then the Carolingians. One of the main Carolingian figure is Charlemagne the subject of French Matter.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Charlemagne is well known for 3 features:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - He became Emperor, de facto becoming the Roman successor&#xD;&#xA; - He vanquished the Saxons, that neither the Romans nor the Merovingians managed to handle&#xD;&#xA; - He tried to conquered the Muslim Spain, this one is a subject of the French Matter&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On a pure historical fact, the conquest of Spain was a political gesture (toward Rome and the Pope) as well as promise of richness. One of the greatest feature of Charlemagne was to understand this was an horrible mistake and quickly withdraw and concentrate on the Saxons, the goal of his life. This actually shaped Europe between England, France, Spain, and the Germanic Empire. Would he had tried to stay in Spain, history would be vastly different. His withdrawal from Spain is on the same level as the heroic Greek's resistance against the Persians.Greece outshined the world after the Medic Wars. Without the Greeks stopping the Persians, no Socrates, no Plato, no Euclid (No maths, no physics, no philosophy). Considering Charlemagne could not handle both the Saxons and Spain, no one can express how smart a gesture this was.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;One of the greatest song of Charlemagne is about his retreat from Spain when his rear army, lead By Roland was attacked and defeated and Roland exploding his throat by blowing his horn. This was an historical event, about a &quot;Frankish defeat&quot; (put that on the same level as the Thermopilae is a Greek defeat). Now the heroic features presented in the Matter are totally unreal (even Roland's death...), but the event is. We have here the chance to track the difference between the Matter presenting a defeat as a final victory and the purely historical &quot;defeat&quot;.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;We can safely here do so safe comparison between Arthurian Matter which perhaps used an historical figure (A guy named Arthur). And the Charles Matter which used an historical figure that we know. In both case, anyway, the resulting figure appears very different. You do not have an idea of the politics or mind of the people of Arthurian or Charles time. Those are Chivalry novels. On the same way we can assume the Cycle of Gilgamesh/Aratta are far from the preoccupation of Gilgamesh.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;**Suggested reading**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The [Song of Roland][5], as I can read old French I unfortunately cannot give any good English translation, I picked one.&#xD;&#xA; - [ Charlemagne: The Formation of a European Identity][6] by Rosamond McKitterick, one great English study.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sumary&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do myths/legends come from actual historical events? If the song of Roland actually did, if the Iliad and the Odyssey did, The Medic Wars were covered only by Herodotus. Knowing their historical importance vastly outlive the Trojan war. If the Cycle of Aratta or Gilgamesh could cover historical events, we don't know what those events were, and anyway it was written long after those events, and in such a style this makes it questionable.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;We know finally something, when Herodotus talked about Egypt he is telling us something important about what the Egyptians knew of their history in 450 BC: They were parroting their not well read books! The Khufhu (Cheops) they are talking about is the one we could read the story in their books.&lt;BR&gt; &#xD;&#xA;In case of the Matters written when writings were more common, the actual use of historical material (and such this sliding from history to myth) is obvious.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.amazon.com/Epics-Sumerian-Kings-Writings-Ancient/dp/1589830830&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.amazon.com/King-Hammurabi-Babylon-Marc-Mieroop/dp/1405126604&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/W9YbY.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Egypt-Anatomy-Civilization-Second/dp/0415235502&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.amazon.com/Song-Roland-Penguin-Classics/dp/0140445323&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.amazon.com/Charlemagne-Formation-European-Rosamond-McKitterick/dp/0521716454" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9087" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="390" RevisionGUID="44422b2f-2e01-4006-a60a-c070d1814f68" CreationDate="2016-12-21T14:35:17.390" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added more info. no idea why the tag wiki description can't be edited as well. See http://meta.mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/380/can-we-please-change-the-tag-wiki-of-the-folklore-tag" Text="For questions about folklore, which is culture that is spread &quot;person to person&quot; (McNeill 2013). Examples of folklore include oral tradition spread by word of mouth, online culture such as chain emails that are spread from person to person, and artistic conventions that are spread by direct observation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For more information, please see:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Blank, Trevor J. Folklore and the Internet: Vernacular expression in a digital world. University Press of Colorado, 2009, http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1034&amp;context=usupress_pubs&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;McNeill, Lynne S. *Folklore Rules: A Fun, Quick, and Useful Introduction to the Field of Academic Folklore Studies*. University Press of Colorado, 2013, http://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt5hjz10.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;What Is Folklore?&quot; *The Folklore Wiki*. American Folklore Society, http://www.afsnet.org/?page=WhatIsFolklore&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9088" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="390" RevisionGUID="44422b2f-2e01-4006-a60a-c070d1814f68" CreationDate="2016-12-21T14:35:17.390" Comment="Proposed by 62 approved by 967, 111 edit id of 398" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9089" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2193" RevisionGUID="4abe7081-afc0-46db-ac69-39547771b2b1" CreationDate="2016-12-21T15:30:35.683" UserId="967" Comment="edited body" Text="I'm looking for a greek myth where an immortal god, no matter how minor, turns into a mortal immediately.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Things I am not looking for:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - A temporary punishment- Apollo serving Admetus&#xD;&#xA; - A god who is forced into servitude/captured forever but not exactly mortal-Persephone's capture." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9090" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2195" RevisionGUID="77922d6e-823c-45bc-a2c7-9399b16c9cf7" CreationDate="2016-12-21T16:16:04.930" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="In England and other countries, many shire, cart and parade horses carry brasses, which often depict the sun, the crescent moon, a star, or a wheel. When did these designs first appear on horse brasses, and what were their lines of transmission to the present day?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9091" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2195" RevisionGUID="77922d6e-823c-45bc-a2c7-9399b16c9cf7" CreationDate="2016-12-21T16:16:04.930" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="What is the origin of horse brasses depicting sun, moon, star, and wheel?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9092" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2195" RevisionGUID="77922d6e-823c-45bc-a2c7-9399b16c9cf7" CreationDate="2016-12-21T16:16:04.930" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9093" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2195" RevisionGUID="8cfeff7a-5ee6-4d31-a0cd-5820fce41681" CreationDate="2016-12-21T16:18:29.313" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9094" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2196" RevisionGUID="9d57b4b1-9348-456d-9f3d-1209cacca505" CreationDate="2016-12-21T16:37:52.137" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="In Mitcham in South London, children often used to build &quot;grottoes&quot; out of pebbles, pieces of broken pottery, candles, and sometimes shells, flowers, or pieces of mirror. They would ask for &quot;a penny for the grotta&quot; (the local pronunciation) and would spend the money they collected at Mitcham Fair, known to date back to the early 18th century and which according to legend was first granted a charter by Queen Elizabeth I more than a century earlier. The building of grottoes continued until at least the 1980s.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is speculated that there may be a strong connection with St James, who is buried at the major pilgrimage site of Compostela in Galicia in Spain, and whose symbol is the shell, in particular the scallop shell found on the Galician shore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But how much credence should we give to this notion, bearing in mind that shellfish were a common food in London and also that St James's feast day is on 25 July whereas the fair itself was held on 12-14 August until 1924 and even today commences around 12 August each year?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9095" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2196" RevisionGUID="9d57b4b1-9348-456d-9f3d-1209cacca505" CreationDate="2016-12-21T16:37:52.137" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="Were the grottoes of Mitcham in South London really connected with the veneration of St James of Compostela?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9096" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2196" RevisionGUID="9d57b4b1-9348-456d-9f3d-1209cacca505" CreationDate="2016-12-21T16:37:52.137" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9097" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2195" RevisionGUID="baac2937-a258-4a8e-a062-117f628300fc" CreationDate="2016-12-21T16:43:03.870" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="edited tags" Text="|folklore|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9098" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="216" RevisionGUID="59b49cec-5253-47d4-b19d-a26e0d935cd8" CreationDate="2016-12-21T17:17:32.507" UserId="967" Comment="added 8 characters in body" Text="I'm having trouble understanding how the Roman mythology revolves around or is associated with the concept of [*Genius*][1]. From what I understand, every thing has a spirit or soul, that can be venerated in some way. This was the thought that eventually led to the Imperial Cult, where the Emperor himself was not actually worshiped, but it was his *Genius*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If I were to hazard to guess, I would say that the *Genii* came first. People worshiped the sky, which eventually became Jupiter, the god of the sky. But by the time we get to 30 BC with the advent of the Imperial Cult, they are still talking about it. So they didn't abandon it as a primitive understanding of the gods, but embraced it as fundamental to divinity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So around 30 BC, at the advent of the Imperial Cult, how did the Romans at this time typically understand how the *Genii* fit into the mythology?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;___&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some side questions spawn out of this so here they are out of curiosity, not expectation that they should be answered:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Doesn't this just make Roman Mythology a kind of pantheism?&#xD;&#xA;2. Were there different theologies based on this concept that asserted that Jupiter et al. didn't actually exist like the myths portrayed?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genius_%28mythology%29" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9100" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2193" RevisionGUID="6fa2988e-ff35-4956-86fa-53dc6be99483" CreationDate="2016-12-22T01:20:43.360" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved  spelling and grammar." Text="I'm looking for a Greek myth in which an immortal god, no matter how minor, turns into a mortal immediately.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Things I am not looking for:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - A temporary punishment- Apollo serving Admetus&#xD;&#xA; - A god who is forced into servitude/captured forever but not exactly mortal-Persephone's capture." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9101" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2193" RevisionGUID="6fa2988e-ff35-4956-86fa-53dc6be99483" CreationDate="2016-12-22T01:20:43.360" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved  spelling and grammar." Text="Are there any Greek myths of a god permanently turning into a mortal?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9102" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2193" RevisionGUID="6fa2988e-ff35-4956-86fa-53dc6be99483" CreationDate="2016-12-22T01:20:43.360" Comment="Proposed by 1241 approved by 967 edit id of 406" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9104" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="1251" RevisionGUID="3fec1bd9-6dff-4b78-bcfd-46c48b138e3a" CreationDate="2016-12-22T09:27:28.813" UserId="57" Comment="34" />
  <row Id="9105" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2068" RevisionGUID="57a5efd0-4b27-4401-93a8-2d880852de50" CreationDate="2016-12-22T11:50:12.640" UserId="201" Comment="added comparative tags" Text="|greek|norse|comparative|roman|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9106" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2068" RevisionGUID="57a5efd0-4b27-4401-93a8-2d880852de50" CreationDate="2016-12-22T11:50:12.640" Comment="Proposed by 201 approved by 57 edit id of 407" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9107" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2081" RevisionGUID="d65fd87c-12be-410e-9653-dafc88898ca0" CreationDate="2016-12-22T11:50:28.503" UserId="201" Comment="added comparative tag" Text="|myth-identification|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9108" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2081" RevisionGUID="d65fd87c-12be-410e-9653-dafc88898ca0" CreationDate="2016-12-22T11:50:28.503" Comment="Proposed by 201 approved by 57 edit id of 408" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9111" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2197" RevisionGUID="ffa5ad04-9f91-462c-93d0-0b7d9f7380cc" CreationDate="2016-12-22T13:35:05.523" UserId="1241" Text="The calendar of liturgical feasts or celebrations may have different dates of celebration for a particular saint or mystery. These differences may be due either to nation, regional or various liturgical &quot;usages&quot; which were permitted within the Roman Rite.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Prior to the 1550s, in England, there was in use the [Sarum Rite][1] (a variation of the Roman Rite).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Up until the early 1900s the Feast of St James was held on August 5. Today this is known as the [Old St James' Day.][2] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The adoption of the shell by the pilgrims to the shrine of St. James, is accounted for in a legend, which relates, that when the relics of the saint were being miraculously conveyed from Jerusalem to Spain, in a ship built of marble, the horse of a Portuguese knight, alarmed, we may presume, at so extraordinary a barge, plunged into the sea with its rider. The knight was rescued, and taken on board of the ship, when his clothes were found to be covered with **scallop shells**.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;There is some folk lore connected with St. James's Day. They say in Herefordshire:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;'Till St. James's Day is past and gone, &#xD;&#xA; There may be hops or they maybe none;'&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;implying the noted uncertainty of that local crop. Another proverb more general is —'Whoever eats oysters on St. James's Day, will never want money.' In point of fact, it is customary in London to begin eating oysters on St. James's Day, when they are necessarily somewhat dearer than afterwards; so we may presume that the saying is only meant as a jocular encouragement to a little piece of extravagance and self-indulgence. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; BlockquoteIn this connection of oysters with St. James's Day, we trace the ancient association of the apostle with pilgrims' shells. There is a custom in London which makes this relation more evident. In the course of the few days following upon the introduction of oysters for the season, the children of the humbler class employ themselves diligently in collecting the shells which have been cast out from taverns and fish-shops, and of these they make piles in various rude forms. By the time that **old St. James's Day (the 5th of August)** has come about, they have these little fabrics in nice order, with a candle stuck in the top, to be lighted at night. As you thread your way through some of the denser parts of the metropolis, you are apt to find a cone of shells, with its votive light, in the nook of some retired court, with a group of youngsters around it, some of whom will be sure to assail the stranger with a whining claim—Mind the grotto! by which is meant a demand for a penny wherewith professedly to keep up the candle. It cannot be doubted that we have here, at the distance of upwards of three hundred years from the Reformation, a relic of the habits of our Catholic ancestors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The English faithful today are simply remembering their Old St James' Day, by celebrating its small memorial in August, rather than in July and closer to the Feast of the Assumption (August 15).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13479a.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.thebookofdays.com/months/july/25.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9112" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2197" RevisionGUID="9d67d370-3560-45cd-823c-2d722432cccb" CreationDate="2016-12-22T13:43:53.397" UserId="1241" Comment="deleted 11 characters in body" Text="The calendar of liturgical feasts or celebrations may have different dates of celebration for a particular saint or mystery. These differences may be due either to nation, regional or various liturgical &quot;usages&quot; which were permitted within the Roman Rite.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Prior to the 1550s, in England, there was in use the [Sarum Rite][1] (a variation of the Roman Rite).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Up until the early 1900s the Feast of St James was held on August 5. Today this is known as the [Old St James' Day.][2] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The adoption of the shell by the pilgrims to the shrine of St. James, is accounted for in a legend, which relates, that when the relics of the saint were being miraculously conveyed from Jerusalem to Spain, in a ship built of marble, the horse of a Portuguese knight, alarmed, we may presume, at so extraordinary a barge, plunged into the sea with its rider. The knight was rescued, and taken on board of the ship, when his clothes were found to be covered with **scallop shells**.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;There is some folk lore connected with St. James's Day. They say in Herefordshire:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;'Till St. James's Day is past and gone, &#xD;&#xA; There may be hops or they maybe none;'&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;implying the noted uncertainty of that local crop. Another proverb more general is —'Whoever eats oysters on St. James's Day, will never want money.' In point of fact, it is customary in London to begin eating oysters on St. James's Day, when they are necessarily somewhat dearer than afterwards; so we may presume that the saying is only meant as a jocular encouragement to a little piece of extravagance and self-indulgence. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;In this connection of oysters with St. James's Day, we trace the ancient association of the apostle with pilgrims' shells. There is a custom in London which makes this relation more evident. In the course of the few days following upon the introduction of oysters for the season, the children of the humbler class employ themselves diligently in collecting the shells which have been cast out from taverns and fish-shops, and of these they make piles in various rude forms. By the time that **old St. James's Day (the 5th of August)** has come about, they have these little fabrics in nice order, with a candle stuck in the top, to be lighted at night. As you thread your way through some of the denser parts of the metropolis, you are apt to find a cone of shells, with its votive light, in the nook of some retired court, with a group of youngsters around it, some of whom will be sure to assail the stranger with a whining claim—Mind the grotto! by which is meant a demand for a penny wherewith professedly to keep up the candle. It cannot be doubted that we have here, at the distance of upwards of three hundred years from the Reformation, a relic of the habits of our Catholic ancestors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The English faithful today are simply remembering their Old St James' Day, by celebrating its small memorial in August, rather than in July and closer to the Feast of the Assumption (August 15).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13479a.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.thebookofdays.com/months/july/25.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9113" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2197" RevisionGUID="baf2d65b-238c-4451-90d2-d6388cda8093" CreationDate="2016-12-22T16:24:14.300" UserId="1241" Comment="Added 35 words to body for clarity." Text="The calendar of liturgical feasts or celebrations may have different dates of celebration for a particular saint or mystery. These differences may be due either to nation, regional or various liturgical &quot;usages&quot; which were permitted within the Roman Rite.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Prior to the 1550s, in England, there was in use the [Sarum Rite][1] (a variation of the Roman Rite).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Up until the early 1900s the Feast of St James was held on August 5. Today this is known as the [Old St James' Day.][2] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The adoption of the shell by the pilgrims to the shrine of St. James, is accounted for in a legend, which relates, that when the relics of the saint were being miraculously conveyed from Jerusalem to Spain, in a ship built of marble, the horse of a Portuguese knight, alarmed, we may presume, at so extraordinary a barge, plunged into the sea with its rider. The knight was rescued, and taken on board of the ship, when his clothes were found to be covered with **scallop shells**.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;There is some folk lore connected with St. James's Day. They say in Herefordshire:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;'Till St. James's Day is past and gone, &#xD;&#xA; There may be hops or they maybe none;'&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;implying the noted uncertainty of that local crop. Another proverb more general is —'Whoever eats oysters on St. James's Day, will never want money.' In point of fact, it is customary in London to begin eating oysters on St. James's Day, when they are necessarily somewhat dearer than afterwards; so we may presume that the saying is only meant as a jocular encouragement to a little piece of extravagance and self-indulgence. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;In this connection of oysters with St. James's Day, we trace the ancient association of the apostle with pilgrims' shells. There is a custom in London which makes this relation more evident. In the course of the few days following upon the introduction of oysters for the season, the children of the humbler class employ themselves diligently in collecting the shells which have been cast out from taverns and fish-shops, and of these they make piles in various rude forms. By the time that **old St. James's Day (the 5th of August)** has come about, they have these little fabrics in nice order, with a candle stuck in the top, to be lighted at night. As you thread your way through some of the denser parts of the metropolis, you are apt to find a cone of shells, with its votive light, in the nook of some retired court, with a group of youngsters around it, some of whom will be sure to assail the stranger with a whining claim—Mind the grotto! by which is meant a demand for a penny wherewith professedly to keep up the candle. It cannot be doubted that we have here, at the distance of upwards of three hundred years from the Reformation, a relic of the habits of our Catholic ancestors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The English faithful today are simply remembering their Old St James' Day, by celebrating its small memorial in August, rather than in July and closer to the Feast of the Assumption (August 15).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It should also be noted that August 12 is the [octave day][3] of the Old St James' Feast Day, meaning that St James' Day (August 5) was at one time celebrated locally for eight days.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13479a.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.thebookofdays.com/months/july/25.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octave_(liturgical)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9114" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2197" RevisionGUID="fc010492-6d90-4176-a7e6-059cea4cec20" CreationDate="2016-12-22T16:59:10.260" UserId="1241" Comment="Added One picture and link." Text="[![Oyster Shell Day][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Image taken from [Chambers' book of Days.][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The calendar of liturgical feasts or celebrations may have different dates of celebration for a particular saint or mystery. These differences may be due either to nation, regional or various liturgical &quot;usages&quot; which were permitted within the Roman Rite.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Prior to the 1550s, in England, there was in use the [Sarum Rite][3] (a variation of the Roman Rite).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Up until the early 1900s the Feast of St James was held on August 5. Today this is known as the [Old St James' Day.][4] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The adoption of the shell by the pilgrims to the shrine of St. James, is accounted for in a legend, which relates, that when the relics of the saint were being miraculously conveyed from Jerusalem to Spain, in a ship built of marble, the horse of a Portuguese knight, alarmed, we may presume, at so extraordinary a barge, plunged into the sea with its rider. The knight was rescued, and taken on board of the ship, when his clothes were found to be covered with **scallop shells**.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;There is some folk lore connected with St. James's Day. They say in Herefordshire:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;'Till St. James's Day is past and gone, &#xD;&#xA; There may be hops or they maybe none;'&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;implying the noted uncertainty of that local crop. Another proverb more general is —'Whoever eats oysters on St. James's Day, will never want money.' In point of fact, it is customary in London to begin eating oysters on St. James's Day, when they are necessarily somewhat dearer than afterwards; so we may presume that the saying is only meant as a jocular encouragement to a little piece of extravagance and self-indulgence. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;In this connection of oysters with St. James's Day, we trace the ancient association of the apostle with pilgrims' shells. There is a custom in London which makes this relation more evident. In the course of the few days following upon the introduction of oysters for the season, the children of the humbler class employ themselves diligently in collecting the shells which have been cast out from taverns and fish-shops, and of these they make piles in various rude forms. By the time that **old St. James's Day (the 5th of August)** has come about, they have these little fabrics in nice order, with a candle stuck in the top, to be lighted at night. As you thread your way through some of the denser parts of the metropolis, you are apt to find a cone of shells, with its votive light, in the nook of some retired court, with a group of youngsters around it, some of whom will be sure to assail the stranger with a whining claim—Mind the grotto! by which is meant a demand for a penny wherewith professedly to keep up the candle. It cannot be doubted that we have here, at the distance of upwards of three hundred years from the Reformation, a relic of the habits of our Catholic ancestors. - [Chambers' book of Days][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The English faithful today are simply remembering their Old St James' Day, by celebrating its small memorial in August, rather than in July and closer to the Feast of the Assumption (August 15).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It should also be noted that August 12 is the [octave day][5] of the Old St James' Feast Day, meaning that St James' Day (August 5) was at one time celebrated locally for eight days.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/B8NGL.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.thebookofdays.com/months/july/images/oyster_shell_day.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13479a.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.thebookofdays.com/months/july/25.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octave_(liturgical)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9115" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2193" RevisionGUID="7ce4ec71-0ae8-4ede-9dcf-d39a41b33fce" CreationDate="2016-12-22T18:30:36.233" UserId="967" Comment="added 24 characters in body" Text="I'm looking for a Greek myth in which an immortal god, no matter how minor, turns into a mortal immediately because of a punishment.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Things I am not looking for:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - A temporary punishment- Apollo serving Admetus&#xD;&#xA; - A god who is forced into servitude/captured forever but not exactly mortal-Persephone's capture." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9116" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="2117" RevisionGUID="78565abc-cb7f-4515-babb-1cc6f7b6077e" CreationDate="2016-12-22T20:33:04.923" UserId="-1" Comment="32" />
  <row Id="9117" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1558" RevisionGUID="15738dd1-51b6-4031-83e4-d5c5e4b44eea" CreationDate="2016-12-22T20:37:13.140" UserId="201" Comment="added comparative tag" Text="|mythical-creatures|myth-identification|comparative|werewolves|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9118" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1558" RevisionGUID="15738dd1-51b6-4031-83e4-d5c5e4b44eea" CreationDate="2016-12-22T20:37:13.140" Comment="Proposed by 201 approved by 2774, 111 edit id of 410" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9120" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2197" RevisionGUID="4da96fa4-baea-4ac7-b676-96f5b2cb39b7" CreationDate="2016-12-24T13:24:41.190" UserId="1241" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="[![Oyster Shell Day][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Image taken from [Chambers' book of Days.][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The calendar of liturgical feasts or celebrations may have different dates of celebration for a particular saint or mystery. These differences may be due either to nation, regional or various liturgical &quot;usages&quot; which were permitted within the Roman Rite.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Prior to the 1550s, in England, there was in use the [Sarum Rite][3] (a variation of the Roman Rite).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Up until the early 1900s the Feast of St James was held on August 5. Today this is known as the [Old St James' Day.][4] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The adoption of the shell by the pilgrims to the shrine of St. James, is accounted for in a legend, which relates, that when the relics of the saint were being miraculously conveyed from Jerusalem to Spain, in a ship built of marble, the horse of a Portuguese knight, alarmed, we may presume, at so extraordinary a barge, plunged into the sea with its rider. The knight was rescued, and taken on board of the ship, when his clothes were found to be covered with **scallop shells**.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;There is some folk lore connected with St. James's Day. They say in Herefordshire:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;'Till St. James's Day is past and gone, &#xD;&#xA; There may be hops or they maybe none;'&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;implying the noted uncertainty of that local crop. Another proverb more general is —'Whoever eats oysters on St. James's Day, will never want money.' In point of fact, it is customary in London to begin eating oysters on St. James's Day, when they are necessarily somewhat dearer than afterwards; so we may presume that the saying is only meant as a jocular encouragement to a little piece of extravagance and self-indulgence. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;In this connection of oysters with St. James's Day, we trace the ancient association of the apostle with pilgrims' shells. There is a custom in London which makes this relation more evident. In the course of the few days following upon the introduction of oysters for the season, the children of the humbler class employ themselves diligently in collecting the shells which have been cast out from taverns and fish-shops, and of these they make piles in various rude forms. By the time that **old St. James's Day (the 5th of August)** has come about, they have these little fabrics in nice order, with a candle stuck in the top, to be lighted at night. As you thread your way through some of the denser parts of the metropolis, you are apt to find a cone of shells, with its votive light, in the nook of some retired court, with a group of youngsters around it, some of whom will be sure to assail the stranger with a whining claim—Mind the grotto! by which is meant a demand for a penny wherewith professedly to keep up the candle. It cannot be doubted that we have here, at the distance of upwards of three hundred years from the Reformation, a relic of the habits of our Catholic ancestors. - [Chambers' book of Days][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The English faithful today are simply remembering their Old St James' Day, by celebrating its' small memorial in August, rather than in July and closer to the Feast of the Assumption (August 15).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It should also be noted that August 12 is the [octave day][5] of the Old St James' Feast Day, meaning that St James' Day (August 5) was at one time celebrated locally for eight days.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/B8NGL.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.thebookofdays.com/months/july/images/oyster_shell_day.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13479a.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.thebookofdays.com/months/july/25.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octave_(liturgical)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9121" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2197" RevisionGUID="c9d0f71f-00af-42fd-9b85-634fd162683f" CreationDate="2016-12-25T03:48:55.413" UserId="1241" Comment="added 10 characters in body" Text="[![Oyster Shell Day][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Image taken from [Chambers' book of Days.][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The calendar of liturgical feasts or celebrations may have different dates of celebration for a particular saint or mystery. These differences may be due either to a national, regional or other various liturgical &quot;usages&quot; which were permitted within the Roman Rite.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Prior to the 1550s, in England, there was in use the [Sarum Rite][3] (a variation of the Roman Rite).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Up until the early 1900s the Feast of St James was held on August 5. Today this is known as the [Old St James' Day.][4] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The adoption of the shell by the pilgrims to the shrine of St. James, is accounted for in a legend, which relates, that when the relics of the saint were being miraculously conveyed from Jerusalem to Spain, in a ship built of marble, the horse of a Portuguese knight, alarmed, we may presume, at so extraordinary a barge, plunged into the sea with its rider. The knight was rescued, and taken on board of the ship, when his clothes were found to be covered with **scallop shells**.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;There is some folk lore connected with St. James's Day. They say in Herefordshire:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;'Till St. James's Day is past and gone, &#xD;&#xA; There may be hops or they maybe none;'&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;implying the noted uncertainty of that local crop. Another proverb more general is —'Whoever eats oysters on St. James's Day, will never want money.' In point of fact, it is customary in London to begin eating oysters on St. James's Day, when they are necessarily somewhat dearer than afterwards; so we may presume that the saying is only meant as a jocular encouragement to a little piece of extravagance and self-indulgence. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;In this connection of oysters with St. James's Day, we trace the ancient association of the apostle with pilgrims' shells. There is a custom in London which makes this relation more evident. In the course of the few days following upon the introduction of oysters for the season, the children of the humbler class employ themselves diligently in collecting the shells which have been cast out from taverns and fish-shops, and of these they make piles in various rude forms. By the time that **old St. James's Day (the 5th of August)** has come about, they have these little fabrics in nice order, with a candle stuck in the top, to be lighted at night. As you thread your way through some of the denser parts of the metropolis, you are apt to find a cone of shells, with its votive light, in the nook of some retired court, with a group of youngsters around it, some of whom will be sure to assail the stranger with a whining claim—Mind the grotto! by which is meant a demand for a penny wherewith professedly to keep up the candle. It cannot be doubted that we have here, at the distance of upwards of three hundred years from the Reformation, a relic of the habits of our Catholic ancestors. - [Chambers' book of Days][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The English faithful today are simply remembering their Old St James' Day, by celebrating its' small memorial in August, rather than in July and closer to the Feast of the Assumption (August 15).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It should also be noted that August 12 is the [octave day][5] of the Old St James' Feast Day, meaning that St James' Day (August 5) was at one time celebrated locally for eight days.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/B8NGL.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.thebookofdays.com/months/july/images/oyster_shell_day.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13479a.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.thebookofdays.com/months/july/25.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octave_(liturgical)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9122" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1561" RevisionGUID="9bb3dca3-824c-4b4a-b4e1-f381a69a9e6f" CreationDate="2016-12-25T20:49:13.313" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved formatting." Text="There's a wolf transformation in the [Epic of Gilgamesh][1], and as written texts go they don't come any earlier. Although in this case it was a spell cast upon him and he never had a chance to transform back into human form.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There may of course be earlier oral mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.werewolves.com/gilgamesh/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9123" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1561" RevisionGUID="9bb3dca3-824c-4b4a-b4e1-f381a69a9e6f" CreationDate="2016-12-25T20:49:13.313" Comment="Proposed by 1241 approved by 111, 2774 edit id of 411" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9125" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1771" RevisionGUID="08e8bd98-b0d7-4c47-a86d-4259747e239e" CreationDate="2016-12-26T06:05:48.760" UserId="2682" Comment="improved formatting" Text="&lt;sup&gt;This started out as a comment responding to other comments made on femtoRgon's Answer but then it got long (+ it's essentially an Answer too, so I figured I might as well add it as such).&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The King James Version is actually an update of previous English Bibles like the 1560s Bishop's Bible, which says that &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cain also knewe his wyfe&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and the 1580s Geneva Bible, which has: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kain also knewe his wife&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All three translations rely quite heavily on the ancient _Latin_ Vulgate Bible, actually, translating quite closely *cognovit autem Cain uxorem suam*, which could just as correctly be rendered &quot;Cain was cognizant of his wife&quot;. The English term _recognise_ comes from the same Latin root, referring to the action of perceiving or seeing someone with whom one is already familiar. So another way of putting it could very well be: &quot;Cain recognised/acknowledged his wife&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of all this the Ancient Greek—or Septuagint [or LXX], as it is called—translation says pretty much the same thing:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Καὶ ἔγνω Καιν τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;And Kain _egno_ his woman&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;English _know_ actually derives from that Greek word, which in this passage simply means sexual intercourse, the most intimate way in which a person can be known in most human contexts. (FemtoRgon's response addresses this quite well.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where the wife came from is simply never stated anywhere in the text. It can only be *inferred* from the scanty evidence provided in the narrative. For all we know (no pun intended), she could be a member of the same mysterious family referred to as &quot;the sons of God&quot; in Genesis 6, one of the most tantalisingly ambiguous passages in the Bible. [That tiny tidbit of Ch. 6 info inspired the Book of 1 Enoch, an 108-chapter anthology of what those who don't consider it canon might be inclined to see as a massive tome of ancient sci-fi fan-fiction. In Enoch these &quot;children of God&quot; are called the egregoroi {or in Aramaic, *iyrin*}, &quot;watchers&quot;]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [Greek] LXX, the same essential sentence construction employed in Genesis 4.17 is what begins the same chapter in v. 1, to describe the conception of Cain himself: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Αδαμ δὲ ἔγνω Ευαν τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;And Adam knew [*egno*] his woman Eua&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From that &quot;*know*ledge,&quot; Cain is born. A continuation of the theme of knowledge is most likely intended here: the first time the concept occurs in the story ever since the consumption of the fruit of the Tree of the _Knowledge_ in the park [or &quot;garden&quot; as it is almost invariably translated in English].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At any rate, by this point in the story I think it's safe to assume that Adam and Eve have definitely already met each other before, and Adam's knowing of his wife cannot mean that they are meeting for the first time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The arrival, in Ch. 6, of &quot;the sons of God&quot; (whoever those are) among &quot;the daughters of Adam&quot; (whatever that implies but also may not mean), is, however, not in the scope of most interpretations of the identity of Cain's wife (I am the first person I know to suggest that she might have been a Watcher). In 1 Enoch the iyrin/egregoroi first take human wives only generations after Cain's own family begins to grow. This would appear to follow the common interpretation that Cain was married to his sister.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The apocryphal Book of Jubilees names all the wives of the sons of Adam who are mentioned in Genesis, identifying Cain's wife as his own sister Awan and Seth's wife as his own sister Azura. In another tradition Cain's wife is called Aqlima, and she is in fact his twin. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The understanding in the sister-wife interpretation is basic and standard: Cain kills his brother Abel for some reason or other. Cain then either takes one of his sisters (in the version featuring Aqlima, Abel also has a twin sister) and marries her after his flight from home, or he is in fact already married to her at this point. There does not appear to be any ancient interpretation in which Cain somehow meets a relative after his flight and only then marries her. Which is not to say that it is impossible for it to be read that way. It absolutely leaves itself an open question. And a mystery. (Unless, i.e., stuff like the Book of Jubilees should be taken to heart.)     " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9126" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2050" RevisionGUID="39cf78b4-6902-4814-bf5e-1e80a17a7ead" CreationDate="2016-12-26T06:15:34.757" UserId="2682" Comment="slightly tweaked info" Text="If *ein Arímoisin* can be translated &quot;among Arimoi&quot; then it would appear that Hesiod is naming the tribe or nation—the Arimoi—among whom Ekhidna [Echidna] is keeping guard rather than necessarily her geographical location, although location might be implied therefrom. As for what she is guarding, I would try to connect her to the oracle at Delphi based on some passages from other mythographers. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Immediately after the Theogonic line in view, Hesiod supplies the genealogical information on the most popular monsters in Greek myth, roughly half of whom are the offspring of Ekhidna by her husband or mate Typhoeus, a cosmic fire-breathing storm-giant. Hesiod goes on to finish breaking down the divine family tree at this level and narrating the conflict between Zeus and his father the Titan Kronos before eventually getting back to Typhoeus, who is brought forth by Gaia to avenge Kronos. Typhoeus ultimately fails, however, and like his half-brother Titans he too is cast into the Underworld storm-pit of Tartaros, which storm-pit is actually the giant's own father. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus' version of the contest between Zeus and Typhoeus is particularly striking for its remarkable feature of having Zeus, at some point, veer extremely close to actually being destroyed by Typhoeus. In his *Bibliotheka* Apollodorus says that Typhoeus dwelt in something called the Korykian [Corycian] Cave in Kilikia [Cilicia], Asia Minor. This mythographer's placement of this cave in so far away a corner of the Mediterranean Basin is surprising considering that the cave's name is typically associated with Mt Parnassos, and the city and oracle of Delphi in the Phokis region of Greece. In his book *Drakon: Dragon Myth and Serpent Cult in the Greek and Roman Worlds*, Daniel Ogden muses that it might have something to do with a Hittite *Chaoskampf* or combat myth being the origin of the contest between the chief Greek storm-god and this immense serpentine creature.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus continues by saying that in the vicinity of Mt Kasios on the border of what is now Syria and Turkey, after a furious battle between Zeus and Typhoeus, the giant managed to incapacitate Zeus by coiling around him and even tearing out the sinews from the god's hands and feet, presumably paralysing Zeus at least for a time. He then deposited the wounded deity in this Kilikian lair of his: the Korykian Cave. Now either Typhoeus did not have the ability to kill Zeus or he was being a typical *James Bond* movie villain, buzzing off to go do something else while leaving his arch-nemesis in the custody of some henchman or other. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whatever the giant's intention had been, he is described as having carried Zeus on his shoulders across the sea to Kilikia, where he deposited him in the cave. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Likewise he put away the sinews there also, hidden in a bearskin, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he set to guard them the *drakaina* Delphyne, a maiden who was half&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beast. But [*Zeus' sons*] Hermes and Aigipan stole the sinews and&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;while nobody was looking, reconnected their father with these body parts. Zeus was able shortly afterwards to vanquish Typhoeus for good.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sir James George Frazer's translation of this passage says that Zeus was carried *through* the sea. Maybe I'm making much of a muchness out of that but then what if therefore the Korykian Cave (and ultimately the Arimoi?) should be located underwater? It would make sense of the form which Aigipan is said to have taken for this rescue mission, changing himself into the &quot;Sea-Goat,&quot; a goat whose hind quarters were a fish-tail, which creature was afterwards placed in the sky, in his honour, as the constellation Capricorn.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This location for the Korykian Cave may create other problems, though, as other writers, such as Callimachus, derive the origin of the name Delphi from the *drakaina* Delphyne, who in this version of the myth replaces the more famous dragon Python. In the Homeric Hymn to Apollon [Apollo], Typhoeus is called Typhaon, he is the fatherless son of an enraged Hera, who deposits him, after his birth, with the evil *drakaina* dwelling at the site of Delphi, apparently none other than Delphyne. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Apollon makes his début appearance at the site, he slays the drakaina and thus founds the Pythian oracle through which the land's inhabitants can offer him sacrifices. Based on the connection between Delphyne and Typhoeus in the *Bibliotheka*, [Aaron Atsma](http://www.theoi.com/Ther/DrakainaPython.html) determines Delphyne to be the same personage as Ekhidna. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Robert Graves' interpretation of all this in his book *The Greek Myths* is a bit more complicated, as he insists that Typhaon is here to be equated with (a definitively male) Python, who then becomes the consort of Delphyne.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Typically the Korykian Cave appears on Mt Parnassos in order to connect Apollon's dragon-slaying effort with the establishment of his shrine in the major city which is founded there (usually built by his son Delphos or by Apollon's cousin likewise named Delphos).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An alternate solution might be to say that the Arimoi, whoever/whatever they are, originally lived on Mt Parnassos. The gods then placed Ekhidna-Python-Delphyne in the Korykian Cave to watch over the young Typhoeus/Typhaon and to guard that primordial oracular shrine on behalf of the site's owner. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his *Eumenides* the playwright Aeschylus says that the shrine was owned first by Gaia and then by Gaia's daughter Themis and then by Themis' sister Phoibe [Phoebe] who then bequeathed it to her grandson Apollon. In 10.6.6 of his *Description of Greece*, Pausanias specifically says that Gaia installed Python as the guardian of the place. Hera would then have co-opted Python's services to create a nesting-cave for her Gigantos dragon offspring Typhaon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This identification and interpretation of Arima is however in disagreement with other ancient writers like Strabo, whose [elaborate article on the subject](http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/13D*.html#4.6) furnishes various alternate explanations. And then of course it circles back to contradict Hesiod because, unlike Python and Delphyne, Ekhidna is explicitly stated in your *Theogony* quote to be ageless and undying. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9128" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2198" RevisionGUID="29e6c10d-4e02-4f24-be95-fce25a2d8fd5" CreationDate="2016-12-26T21:20:37.047" UserId="57" Text="The story of [Polyphonte][1] and her cannibal sons survives in only one source, the *Metamorphoses* of Antoninus Liberalis. Antoninus cites Boios' lost collection of metamorphosis myths *Ornithogonia* as the source of the story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do we know of other myths that were in the Ornithogonia?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphonte" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9129" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2198" RevisionGUID="29e6c10d-4e02-4f24-be95-fce25a2d8fd5" CreationDate="2016-12-26T21:20:37.047" UserId="57" Text="Do we know what stories Boios collected in Ornithogonia?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9130" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2198" RevisionGUID="29e6c10d-4e02-4f24-be95-fce25a2d8fd5" CreationDate="2016-12-26T21:20:37.047" UserId="57" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9131" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="2103" RevisionGUID="42c73f7e-747b-429a-bfcc-01c22067e284" CreationDate="2016-12-26T21:40:07.807" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="33" />
  <row Id="9133" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2199" RevisionGUID="8bfb17ff-0eb9-4462-ae4d-74a6e6836a88" CreationDate="2016-12-27T08:33:27.473" UserId="111" Text="Antoninus Liberalis, in his [*Metamorphoses*](https://oniehlibraryofgreekliterature.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/237542527-metamorphoses-of-antoninus-liberalis.pdf), quote a few stories from Boios' *Ornithogonia*: that of Hierax, Aegypius, Anthus, Aedon, Meropis, Oenoe, Eeropus, the story about the thieves in the Idean cave, Clinis and, as you mentioned earlier, that of Polyphonte.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In addition, Aemilius Macer's *Ornithogonia* (only known from fragments) are said to be heavily based on Boios' *Ornithogonia* as well. Here is the relevant quote from Adrian Hollis' [Fragments of Roman Poetry C.60 BC-AD 20](https://books.google.fr/books?id=SwqcSJzx7MAC):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Of the two major works by Aemilius Macer, we know much less about the *Ornithogonia*, though Ovid might have found it more useful (as a source for his *Metamorphoses*). It had at least two books - perhaps just two, like the *Theriaca*. Macer's model would have been a Greek hexameter poem of the same name (also, it seems, in two books) ascribed to one Boeus or Boeo (if the latter, perhaps the legendary Pythian priestess). This may have been composed at the beginning of the Hellenistic age, since it was known to Philochorus (*F. Gr. Hist.* 328 F 214, from Athenaeus 9.393e). No verbatim fragments of the Greek *Ornithogonia* survive - most of those adumbrated in Powell, *Coll. Alex.*, 24-5, would be disowned by any half-decent Greek poet - but the mythographer Antoninus Liberalis (second or third century AD?) in his *Metamorphoses* (the 1968 Budé edition by M. Papathomopoulos is very useful) provides prose paraphrases of ten transformations into birds which are credited, by notes accompanying the text, to the *Ornithogonia* of Boeus.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Transformations mentioned in Macer's *Ornithogonia* include that of Picumnus and Cygnus. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9134" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2199" RevisionGUID="8d5c07d3-fab6-419f-9fd0-ae94541e1a0f" CreationDate="2016-12-27T08:46:53.990" UserId="111" Comment="added 10 characters in body" Text="Antoninus Liberalis, in his [*Metamorphoses*](https://oniehlibraryofgreekliterature.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/237542527-metamorphoses-of-antoninus-liberalis.pdf), quote ten stories from Boios' *Ornithogonia*: that of Hierax, Aegypius, Anthus, Aedon, Meropis, Oenoe, Eeropus, Clinis, the story about the thieves (*Phores*) in the Idean cave, and, as you mentioned earlier, that of Polyphonte.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In addition, Aemilius Macer's *Ornithogonia* (only known from fragments) are said to be heavily based on Boios' *Ornithogonia* as well. Here is the relevant quote from Adrian Hollis' [Fragments of Roman Poetry C.60 BC-AD 20](https://books.google.fr/books?id=SwqcSJzx7MAC):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Of the two major works by Aemilius Macer, we know much less about the *Ornithogonia*, though Ovid might have found it more useful (as a source for his *Metamorphoses*). It had at least two books - perhaps just two, like the *Theriaca*. Macer's model would have been a Greek hexameter poem of the same name (also, it seems, in two books) ascribed to one Boeus or Boeo (if the latter, perhaps the legendary Pythian priestess). This may have been composed at the beginning of the Hellenistic age, since it was known to Philochorus (*F. Gr. Hist.* 328 F 214, from Athenaeus 9.393e). No verbatim fragments of the Greek *Ornithogonia* survive - most of those adumbrated in Powell, *Coll. Alex.*, 24-5, would be disowned by any half-decent Greek poet - but the mythographer Antoninus Liberalis (second or third century AD?) in his *Metamorphoses* (the 1968 Budé edition by M. Papathomopoulos is very useful) provides prose paraphrases of ten transformations into birds which are credited, by notes accompanying the text, to the *Ornithogonia* of Boeus.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Transformations mentioned in Macer's *Ornithogonia* include that of Picumnus and Cygnus. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9136" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2200" RevisionGUID="b542a300-8f66-4e8a-9421-3d01dc63b55b" CreationDate="2016-12-27T10:20:19.710" UserId="57" Text="The titular hero of the television series *[Cleverman][1]* is - [according to Wikipedia][2] - a &quot;superheroic version&quot; of an &quot;important figure in many Australian Aboriginal cultures&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm trying to find more information about the traditional Cleverman, but all of my searches so far ended up being about the series instead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who or what is Cleverman? What is his connection to the Dreamtime?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4649420/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleverman#Cleverman" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9137" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2200" RevisionGUID="b542a300-8f66-4e8a-9421-3d01dc63b55b" CreationDate="2016-12-27T10:20:19.710" UserId="57" Text="Who is Cleverman?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9138" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2200" RevisionGUID="b542a300-8f66-4e8a-9421-3d01dc63b55b" CreationDate="2016-12-27T10:20:19.710" UserId="57" Text="|indigenous-australian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9139" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1769" RevisionGUID="0a9f4876-5a4c-4050-9c75-ad6ce49d84e2" CreationDate="2016-12-27T10:21:05.337" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|indigenous-australian|source-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9140" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2200" RevisionGUID="8cb749c8-0604-44ec-9472-da92fe65bdc6" CreationDate="2016-12-27T11:06:11.210" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 8 characters in body" Text="The titular hero of the television series *[Cleverman][1]* is - [according to Wikipedia][2] - a &quot;superheroic version&quot; of an &quot;important figure in many Australian Aboriginal cultures&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm trying to find more information about the traditional Cleverman, but all of my searches so far ended up being about the series.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who or what is Cleverman? What is his connection to the Dreamtime?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4649420/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleverman#Cleverman" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9143" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2202" RevisionGUID="112659d1-1123-4dd6-a01c-387172136302" CreationDate="2016-12-27T16:49:40.613" UserId="183" Text="[An article](http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/tv-and-radio/drama/m28cover2-20160524-gp2e90.html) in *The Sydney Morning Herald* has the creator of *Cleverman*, Ryan Griffen, discussing the traditional Aboriginal role of the Cleverman. The article paints a picture of the Cleverman as a shaman of sorts, an elder and master of magic within a local community. Griffen states&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Our cleverman is different from the actual cleverman that existed in many Aboriginal communities,&quot; he says. &quot;The Dreamtime is about the past, present and future, and so he has powers that relate to all three of those.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; . . .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;In our show, these powers are passed down, very much as in Aboriginal culture. A cleverman is chosen by another cleverman when they're of the right bloodline or are the right type of person. For our cleverman, those powers are passed down to him by his uncle.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I agree that finding references to the Cleverman not connected to the show is extremely difficult. I found a tenuous reference in James Cowan's book [*Myths of the dreaming: interpreting Aboriginal legends*](https://books.google.com/books/about/Myths_of_the_dreaming.html?id=dZWBAAAAMAAJ) (from an article [here](http://news.aboriginalartdirectory.com/2016/05/cleverman.php)) connecting them with the mekigars, shamans." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9146" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="2194" RevisionGUID="afe4c21f-53e5-4b7f-b535-51eeec9cf3f7" CreationDate="2016-12-28T01:54:14.067" UserId="14" Comment="36" />
  <row Id="9154" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="282" RevisionGUID="8984f409-3c2f-4417-a880-58d10735373e" CreationDate="2016-12-29T13:53:46.210" UserId="-1" Comment="35" />
  <row Id="9156" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2204" RevisionGUID="5428c70e-0cef-49bc-b279-033deac25f57" CreationDate="2016-12-29T18:51:01.283" UserId="292" Text="The Homeric Hymn to [Delian Apollo][1] mentions a goddess of childbirth, Eileithyia, who was delayed by Hera, forcing Artemis to help her mother birth Apollo. (She was his older sister by a minute or two, so she started in early.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Only Eilithyia, goddess of sore travail, had not heard of Leto's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; trouble, for she sat on the top of Olympus beneath golden clouds by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; white-armed Hera's contriving, who kept her close through envy,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; because Leto with the lovely tresses was soon to bear a son faultless&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and strong.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;Homer mentions Eileithyia in the Iliad as well, but she seems to [have been swallowed up][2] in the cults of Hera and Artemis over time. The story of Apollo's birth was probably a rationalization of this change of cult.&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;Artemis' [temple at Brauron][3] was a major pilgrimage site for women who wanted to pray for a safe childbirth, leaving various offerings to the goddess. Artemis was seen as protecting newborns, and girls up until puberty.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;This may seem strange in a huntress and virgin, but since she also watched over young animals, and in a sense was eternally young herself, it's not so surpring.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;PS - Eileithyia's name does appear in Myceanean Linear B tablets, so we know she was an older goddess. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0138%3Ahymn%3D3&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eileithyia&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theacropolismuseum.gr/en/content/sanctuary-artemis-brauronia-0" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9157" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2205" RevisionGUID="a4b40a17-79ad-4d7e-83f4-5a038c11c184" CreationDate="2016-12-29T19:12:22.637" UserId="3298" Text="does anybody know anything about the illuminati??&#xD;&#xA;I've heard that they're a group of people who are mastermind and have done some dreadful things. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9158" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2205" RevisionGUID="a4b40a17-79ad-4d7e-83f4-5a038c11c184" CreationDate="2016-12-29T19:12:22.637" UserId="3298" Text="does anybody know anything about the illuminati?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9159" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2205" RevisionGUID="a4b40a17-79ad-4d7e-83f4-5a038c11c184" CreationDate="2016-12-29T19:12:22.637" UserId="3298" Text="|mythohistory|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9160" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2205" RevisionGUID="b73cea06-7d01-4969-aa9e-8dfb6fb013bc" CreationDate="2016-12-29T19:21:12.903" UserId="2892" Comment="Tried to rephrase the question to pass muster" Text="Does anyone know anything about the sources of the Illuminati mythology?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've heard that they're a group of people who are secret masterminds and have done some dreadful things, but is it based on real history or prior myths?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9161" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2205" RevisionGUID="b73cea06-7d01-4969-aa9e-8dfb6fb013bc" CreationDate="2016-12-29T19:21:12.903" UserId="2892" Comment="Tried to rephrase the question to pass muster" Text="What are the historical sources for the Illuminati mythos?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9162" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2205" RevisionGUID="a901cc1e-cbb7-4383-a241-aabefe3514f6" CreationDate="2016-12-29T19:37:37.677" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mythohistory|source-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9163" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="2122" RevisionGUID="42e78501-e184-4c2b-8592-b0354985b31e" CreationDate="2016-12-29T23:40:16.900" UserDisplayName="user1385" Comment="37" />
  <row Id="9165" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2206" RevisionGUID="6db24eb1-e136-4e57-bb3d-ffa53ac1bbe9" CreationDate="2016-12-29T23:50:45.960" UserId="57" Text="Aelian records the following tale of an elephant fighting a dragon:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;In India, I am told, the Elephant and the Drakon (Dragon-Serpent) are the bitterest enemies. Now Elephants draw down the branches of trees and feed upon them. And the Drakones, knowing this, crawl up the trees and envelop the lower half of their bodies in the foliage, but the upper portion extending to the head they allow to hang loose like a rope. And the Elephant approaches to pluck the twigs, whereat the Drakon springs at its eyes and gouges them out. Next the Drakon winds round the Elephant's neck, and as it clings to the tree with the lower part of its body, it tightens its hold with the upper part and strangles the Elephant with an unusual and singular noose.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Aelian, On Animals, Book 6. Translated by Scholfield, A. F.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A similar tale appears in Pliny the Elder's _Natural History_:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Africa produces elephants, beyond the deserts of the Syrtes, and in Mauritania; they are found also in the countries of the Æthiopians and the Troglodytæ as mentioned above. But it is India that produces the largest, as well as the dragon, which is perpetually at war with the elephant, and is itself of so enormous a size, as easily to envelope the elephants with its folds, and encircle them in its coils. The contest is equally fatal to both; the elephant, vanquished, falls to the earth, and by its weight, crushes the dragon which is entwined around it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Pliny the Elder, The Natural History, Book 8. John Bostock, M.D., F.R.S. H.T. Riley, Esq., B.A. London. Taylor and Francis, Red Lion Court, Fleet Street. 1855.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does the story appear in Indian sources? Do we know the reason for the animosity between the two beasts?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.abdn.ac.uk/bestiary/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9166" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2206" RevisionGUID="6db24eb1-e136-4e57-bb3d-ffa53ac1bbe9" CreationDate="2016-12-29T23:50:45.960" UserId="57" Text="Why is the Indian Dragon perpetually at war with the Elephant?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9167" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2206" RevisionGUID="6db24eb1-e136-4e57-bb3d-ffa53ac1bbe9" CreationDate="2016-12-29T23:50:45.960" UserId="57" Text="|india|dragons|animals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9168" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2206" RevisionGUID="b8e114cd-ebc0-4c34-ae5a-b96a0417e8e4" CreationDate="2016-12-29T23:55:58.557" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 814 characters in body" Text="Aelian records the following tale of an elephant fighting a dragon:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;In India, I am told, the Elephant and the Drakon (Dragon-Serpent) are the bitterest enemies. Now Elephants draw down the branches of trees and feed upon them. And the Drakones, knowing this, crawl up the trees and envelop the lower half of their bodies in the foliage, but the upper portion extending to the head they allow to hang loose like a rope. And the Elephant approaches to pluck the twigs, whereat the Drakon springs at its eyes and gouges them out. Next the Drakon winds round the Elephant's neck, and as it clings to the tree with the lower part of its body, it tightens its hold with the upper part and strangles the Elephant with an unusual and singular noose.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Aelian, On Animals, Book 6. Translated by Scholfield, A. F.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does the story appear in Indian sources? Do we know the reason for the animosity between the two beasts?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.abdn.ac.uk/bestiary/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9169" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2206" RevisionGUID="b8e114cd-ebc0-4c34-ae5a-b96a0417e8e4" CreationDate="2016-12-29T23:55:58.557" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 814 characters in body" Text="Why is the Indian Dragon at war with the Elephant?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9170" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2206" RevisionGUID="4d2011d3-dc15-4d6d-bca7-79f485ecc567" CreationDate="2016-12-30T00:02:52.903" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body" Text="Aelian records the following tale of an elephant fighting a dragon:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In India, I am told, the Elephant and the Drakon (Dragon-Serpent) are the bitterest enemies. Now Elephants draw down the branches of trees and feed upon them. And the Drakones, knowing this, crawl up the trees and envelop the lower half of their bodies in the foliage, but the upper portion extending to the head they allow to hang loose like a rope. And the Elephant approaches to pluck the twigs, whereat the Drakon springs at its eyes and gouges them out. Next the Drakon winds round the Elephant's neck, and as it clings to the tree with the lower part of its body, it tightens its hold with the upper part and strangles the Elephant with an unusual and singular noose.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Aelian, On Animals, Book 6. Translated by Scholfield, A. F.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does the story appear in Indian sources? Do we know the reason for the animosity between the two beasts?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.abdn.ac.uk/bestiary/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9171" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1602" RevisionGUID="c5175767-8c39-46d8-b81c-b70952b8966b" CreationDate="2016-12-30T00:07:59.117" UserId="57" Comment="edited body" Text="**This is an answer given by my Indian grandpa, so please take it with a pinch of salt.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As most hero-villain war stories in old movies and old stories in India go, it mostly involves the protagonist hitting the antagonist on the head, behind by a club or some kind of a weapon, knocking him/it cold.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, the bhoots(or more popularly called &quot;chudails&quot;) have their feet backwards in order to confuse the prey. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is also interesting to notice that they also wear their hair forwards, which also makes it difficult to see where they are looking at, and also a bit difficult to perceive the head's orientation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the uninitiated, chudails are believed to be the spirits of dead people." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9172" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2207" RevisionGUID="88547e46-e3c4-49ae-96bb-61ae27c4db5a" CreationDate="2016-12-30T18:57:41.073" UserId="2892" Text="My grandparents, who were fortunate to come from the generation when the classics were still at the core of education, often used the phrase &quot;rich as Croesus&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But how rich was Croesus? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9173" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2207" RevisionGUID="88547e46-e3c4-49ae-96bb-61ae27c4db5a" CreationDate="2016-12-30T18:57:41.073" UserId="2892" Text="How rich was Croesus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9174" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2207" RevisionGUID="88547e46-e3c4-49ae-96bb-61ae27c4db5a" CreationDate="2016-12-30T18:57:41.073" UserId="2892" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9175" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2208" RevisionGUID="77c046b3-a486-40e7-89e8-f688cfc407ff" CreationDate="2016-12-30T23:02:06.517" UserId="57" Text="In the beginning of the Saga of the Völsungs, we learn of the senseless murder of the thrall Bredi at the hands of Sigi. Although Sigi is condemned and declared a &quot;wolf in holy places&quot; (an outlaw), Odin helps him attain warships and troops and he eventually becomes a great king.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thus it is well seen that Sigi has slain the thrall and murdered him; so he is given forth to be a wolf in holy places, and may no more abide in the land with his father; therewith Odin bare him fellowship from the land, so long a way, that right long it was, and made no stay till he brought him to certain war-ships. So Sigi falls to lying out a-warring with the strength that his father gave him or ever they parted; and happy was he in his warring, and ever prevailed, till he brought it about that he won by his wars land and lordship at the last; and thereupon he took to him a noble wife, and became a great and mighty king, and ruled over the land of the Huns, and was the greatest of warriors. He had a son by his wife, who was called Refit, who grew up in his father's house, and soon became great of growth, and shapely.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Story of the Volsungs, translated by William Morris and Eirikr Magnusson&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I understand that Sigi supposedly is a &quot;son of Odin&quot;, however it doesn't seem quite right that the Allfather would favour him as much after he is identified as a murderer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there an explanation for Odin's morally questionable preference of Sigi?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9176" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2208" RevisionGUID="77c046b3-a486-40e7-89e8-f688cfc407ff" CreationDate="2016-12-30T23:02:06.517" UserId="57" Text="Why does Odin favour Sigi at the beginning of the Saga of the Völsungs?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9177" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2208" RevisionGUID="77c046b3-a486-40e7-89e8-f688cfc407ff" CreationDate="2016-12-30T23:02:06.517" UserId="57" Text="|norse|odin|volsunga|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9178" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2209" RevisionGUID="917f393f-8369-4533-8eb2-8782f29c5a1b" CreationDate="2016-12-31T02:26:48.027" UserId="2892" Text="I'm no expert in the Völsungs, but my overall sense from the body of the sagas is that killing is not necessarily a capital crime (blood money and the ostracism of outlaw status as opposed to execution.) Many of the heroes of the sagas will commit seemingly random, senseless acts of violence (although there is usually an insult or slight that incites it, either real or imagined.) Generally it's a turning point in some part of the story arc that drives the narrative, either through exile or a feud or some other consequence.  Many of the heroes evinced quite poor behavior early in their lives—Grettir and Egil come to mind as paragons. One of the elements I like most about the later sagas in particular is the depth of character development over the course of the heroes' lives as they mature and wizen and gain some kind of redemption.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Thralls did have some protection](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrall#Early_Germanic_law), but they were essentially slaves and thus regarded as property, so I wouldn't think killing one, even if unjustified would be regarded as an unforgivable offense, especially by Odin, god of war and beloved of the ruling class.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9179" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2169" RevisionGUID="1c3dfb69-7f84-44f2-964c-9ce36e230f1d" CreationDate="2016-12-31T17:57:06.593" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|folkloristics|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9180" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2170" RevisionGUID="3a058447-33b0-4c46-a839-83d02db24142" CreationDate="2016-12-31T18:00:05.643" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="added 398 characters in body" Text="**First, a warning: the concept of fakelore is outdated and is no longer used by academics.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Folklore represents culture (e.g. stories, songs, and jokes) that are spread &quot;person to person&quot;][5]. Often this means oral tradition (i.e. culture that is spread by word of mouth), but [folklore can also include things like internet culture, where culture is spread person to person through technology like email][6].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the problems that scholars of folklore face is that people have a tendency to claim that stories that were the work of a few artists actually represent oral tradition. Sometimes people will take existing folklore that was spread by word of mouth, but then modify it: the brothers Grimm are famous examples of this. Other times people will create entirely new stories by themselves but then pass them off as new traditions: famous examples of this include the Kalevala and the Paul Bunyan stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The folklorist Richard Dorson was very frustrated by the counterfeiting of oral tradition, and created the term &quot;fakelore&quot; to refer to stories that claimed to be oral tradition but were actually the work of a few people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The problem with this split between folklore and fakelore is that fakelore can find its way back into the oral tradition. For example, although the story of Paul Bunyan mostly originated as advertising for logging companies, [it eventually entered oral tradition in America][1]. Another interesting example [is the &quot;Eagle Dance&quot;, which was taught to the Washoe Indians by a movie director, but since entered their oral tradition][2]. It doesn't make sense to dismiss &quot;fakelore&quot;, because in reality it plays a huge role in the creation of oral tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Because of this, the concept of fakelore is no longer used by folklorists. It's OK to point out that oral tradition doesn't always originate from oral tradition. But the word fakelore is often used to imply that some oral traditions, just because they were originally the work of a few people, are therefore not &quot;real&quot; folklore. In that sense the concept of fakelore is deeply flawed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you are interested in learning more, Alan Dundes has an article titled &quot;Nationalistic Inferiority Complexes and the Fabrication of Fakelore&quot; that is [available online at JSTOR][3]. JSTOR is behind a paywall, but can be accessed for free [from some local libraries][4].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/1498351&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/4h153a/pecos_bill_and_the_distinction_between_fakelore/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/3814466&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://worldcat.org&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://taxicrash.github.io/2015/01/04/Defining-Myth-Folklore-Legend/&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1034&amp;context=usupress_pubs" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9185" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2211" RevisionGUID="cb298905-d139-4fa2-bbb8-4006c03a51ed" CreationDate="2016-12-31T20:47:42.343" UserId="57" Text="In the Saga of the Völsungs, we learn that Sigi is exiled from his homeland and eventually becomes a king in the land of the Huns (or France, according to the Prose Edda). However, the name of his homeland in not mentioned.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do we know where Sigi is from? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9186" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2211" RevisionGUID="cb298905-d139-4fa2-bbb8-4006c03a51ed" CreationDate="2016-12-31T20:47:42.343" UserId="57" Text="Where is Sigi from?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9187" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2211" RevisionGUID="cb298905-d139-4fa2-bbb8-4006c03a51ed" CreationDate="2016-12-31T20:47:42.343" UserId="57" Text="|norse|volsunga|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9192" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2214" RevisionGUID="ae369896-084f-4b48-9f84-2c77b09383c0" CreationDate="2016-12-31T22:25:08.877" UserId="3309" Text="I looked for the same information many years ago and arrived at a website, that, at that time, stated that it could be estimated by the weight of the gold that he had accumulated. I remember that he was only one living at that period that had the greatest volume of gold, although Solomon, I believe it said, came close.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It also said that Croesus was by no means the richest person in history as far as gold goes, but the pharoahs from earlier times and such, would have owned more because, once, there was a lot more gold to easily extract under favorable circumstances.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, remember, that all of Croesus' wealth was captured by Cyrus when he took Lydia, just before Cyrus surprised and took Babylon." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9193" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2215" RevisionGUID="c4d8b0b6-63ba-4ed1-9d8c-0a9fa8251b39" CreationDate="2017-01-01T08:52:47.880" UserId="666" Text="One has to remember that the northern mythology is not based on morality (like Abrahamic religion) and interactions between gods and men (like those in Greek myths) are rare; Odins interest in the world of men is not to promote &quot;good&quot; behavior, it is to harvest strong warriors that will ultimately fight for him in Ragnarök. For Odin, it is better if Sigi is not killed as an outlaw and goes to Hel, but rather becomes a warlord that goes on a rampage which causes many men to die in battle, and that also can father sons which also will become strong warriors. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This fundamental attitude of Odin is reflected in several of his [alternate names][1] that means something like &quot;deceitful&quot;: he might favour you for a while, but eventually, that favour will end and you will be dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_names_of_Odin" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9194" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2211" RevisionGUID="3a36c7b9-7019-406e-808d-c9f8fc08d26f" CreationDate="2017-01-01T11:39:06.943" UserId="57" Comment="added 25 characters in body" Text="In the Saga of the Völsungs, we learn that the patriarch Sigi is exiled from his homeland and eventually becomes a king in the land of the Huns (or France, according to the Prose Edda). However, the name of his homeland in not mentioned.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do we know where Sigi is originally from? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9199" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2216" RevisionGUID="97d040b5-cbbf-403f-a5cf-85423a05a95d" CreationDate="2017-01-01T16:57:37.203" UserId="57" Text="Völsung's mother carried him in her womb for six years: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now no otherwise it goes with the queen's sickness than heretofore, nor may she be the lighter of her child, and six winters wore away with the sickness still heavy on her; so that at the last she feels that she may not live long; wherefore now she bade cut the child from out of her; and it was done even as she bade; a man-child was it, and great of growth from his birth, as might well be; and they say that the youngling kissed his mother or ever she died; but to him is a name given, and he is called Volsung; and he was king over Hunland in the room of his father. From his early years he was big and strong, and full of daring in all manly deeds and trials, and he became the greatest of warriors, and of good hap in all the battles of his warfaring.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Story of the Volsungs, translated by William Morris and Eirikr Magnusson&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a reason for this extremely long gestation?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9200" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2216" RevisionGUID="97d040b5-cbbf-403f-a5cf-85423a05a95d" CreationDate="2017-01-01T16:57:37.203" UserId="57" Text="What is the significance of the very long time Völsung spent in the womb?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9201" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2216" RevisionGUID="97d040b5-cbbf-403f-a5cf-85423a05a95d" CreationDate="2017-01-01T16:57:37.203" UserId="57" Text="|norse|interpretation|volsunga|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9204" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2217" RevisionGUID="5affcf29-00e8-4124-b53c-600704509ff8" CreationDate="2017-01-01T21:03:59.553" UserId="3306" Text="Several pre-flood myths seem to mention humans being able to live for extremely long periods of time. IIRC, the Sumerians had a list of kings that lived for thousands of years pre-flood, and post-flood the kings had their lifespans reduced, although why or how does not appear to be mentioned.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Hindus have the same thing in the form of humans living for thousands of years in a golden age before steadily deterioting to our current lifespan for the age of Kali. No explanation seems to have been offered for this other than that it's predestined/part of the cycle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is this a common theme in pre-flood myths? I think it would be pretty interesting if humans really did live for that long before the flood, but had their lifespans reduced through, i dont know, some kind of disease/mutation/evolution/etc." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9205" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2217" RevisionGUID="5affcf29-00e8-4124-b53c-600704509ff8" CreationDate="2017-01-01T21:03:59.553" UserId="3306" Text="Pre-flood myths : Common theme that the humans had longer lifespans before the flood?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9206" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2217" RevisionGUID="5affcf29-00e8-4124-b53c-600704509ff8" CreationDate="2017-01-01T21:03:59.553" UserId="3306" Text="|flood-myth|immortality|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9207" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2218" RevisionGUID="5a869919-52a1-44ec-9a81-253bf743b163" CreationDate="2017-01-01T21:28:30.397" UserId="666" Text="The long pregnancy is probably to underline how unnatural the whole thing was: Völsung's father Rerir made several failed attempt to impregnate his wife, but only succeeded after being given a magical apple from the gods to eat. There is likely no special significance to the exact timespan." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9209" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2219" RevisionGUID="58a5484a-ad28-43bb-ae8c-ed41192dfa39" CreationDate="2017-01-01T21:31:50.320" UserId="3307" Text="A good work on Freemasonry is&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Msgr. George F. Dillon's [_Grand Orient Freemasonry Unmasked_](https://archive.org/details/warofantichristw00dillrich) ([audiobook][1]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding Freemasonry's symbolism, see:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Roberts, Allen E. 1975. *[The craft and its symbols: opening the door to Masonic symbolism][2]*. Richmond: Macoy Pub. and Masonic Supply Co.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://librivox.org/the-war-of-antichrist-with-the-church-and-christian-civilization-by-george-f-dillon/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/1323598" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9210" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2220" RevisionGUID="27c29e7a-a8da-44d8-96de-93de833a3e9a" CreationDate="2017-01-01T21:44:36.090" UserId="330" Text="This sounds to me like a (very exaggerated) description of [*Python molurus*, the Indian python](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Python_molurus); they [will sometimes climb trees](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rock_python_pratik.JPG) and [kill by constriction](http://animaldiversity.org/accounts/Python_molurus/#food_habits), but I don't think they've ever been known to [eat an elephant](http://wordaligned.org/articles/could-a-python-eat-an-elephant). I think [*De Natura Animalium*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claudius_Aelianus#De_Natura_Animalium) was intended as a natural history book, so even if I'm wrong, I think you're more likely to get to the right answer by look at other animals (such as [the Asian water monitor, *Varanus salvator*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_water_monitor)) instead of mythological beasts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Additionally, I just realized that your quote &quot;whereat the Drakon springs at its eyes and gouges them out&quot; *does* correspond to Indian pythons, which Wikipedia [reports without a citation](https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Python_molurus&amp;oldid=754796009#Feeding) as &quot;Roused to activity on sighting prey, the snake will advance with a quivering tail and lunge with an open mouth&quot;. So this is starting to sound like a pretty good match!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9211" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2217" RevisionGUID="0936b1bc-b091-485f-992d-787c50968ad1" CreationDate="2017-01-01T21:51:23.573" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|comparative|immortality|flood-myth|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9212" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2217" RevisionGUID="478f892b-0a9b-4562-9292-eef3ef3703ed" CreationDate="2017-01-01T22:05:04.297" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9213" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2217" RevisionGUID="478f892b-0a9b-4562-9292-eef3ef3703ed" CreationDate="2017-01-01T22:05:04.297" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="Several pre-flood myths seem to mention humans being able to live for extremely long periods of time. IIRC, the Sumerians had a list of kings that lived for thousands of years pre-flood, and post-flood the kings had their lifespans reduced, although why or how does not appear to be mentioned.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Hindus have the same thing in the form of humans living for thousands of years in a golden age before steadily deteriorating to our current lifespan for the age of Kali. No explanation seems to have been offered for this other than that it's predestined/part of the cycle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is this a common theme in pre-flood myths? I think it would be pretty interesting if humans really did live for that long before the flood, but had their lifespans reduced through, I don't know, some kind of disease/mutation/evolution/etc." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9214" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2217" RevisionGUID="478f892b-0a9b-4562-9292-eef3ef3703ed" CreationDate="2017-01-01T22:05:04.297" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="Common theme that the humans had longer lifespans before the flood?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9215" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2217" RevisionGUID="2b1ddfaa-abbf-4c0c-8570-d1c6055f21d8" CreationDate="2017-01-01T22:25:54.870" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|comparative|flood-myth|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9216" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2217" RevisionGUID="722dc8b8-11e6-4100-9018-f421442307ee" CreationDate="2017-01-01T23:38:48.840" UserId="3306" Comment="edited title" Text="Common theme that humans had longer lifespans before the flood?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9217" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2221" RevisionGUID="f4be1b3d-8fdf-441a-ad32-9f8899f6ac2f" CreationDate="2017-01-02T00:09:07.120" UserId="3230" Text="In the first season of the TV show Slasher the antagonist is killing people he judges are guilty of the 7 deadly sins. Each murder is different, supposedly reflecting the punishment the sinner would receive in hell. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't know how accurate the show's portrayals are, or even if they follow Christian tradition. What are the punishments for the seven deadly sins? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9218" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2221" RevisionGUID="f4be1b3d-8fdf-441a-ad32-9f8899f6ac2f" CreationDate="2017-01-02T00:09:07.120" UserId="3230" Text="What are the punishments for the 7 deadly sins?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9219" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2221" RevisionGUID="f4be1b3d-8fdf-441a-ad32-9f8899f6ac2f" CreationDate="2017-01-02T00:09:07.120" UserId="3230" Text="|christianity|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9220" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2221" RevisionGUID="3da38690-f3ba-44ba-ac96-5645dfe7de54" CreationDate="2017-01-02T00:28:27.453" UserId="3230" Comment="edited title" Text="What are the punishments for the seven deadly sins?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9230" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2219" RevisionGUID="5a4c06e9-991e-438d-bdc8-3d9af919f843" CreationDate="2017-01-02T03:37:37.517" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 189 characters in body" Text="A good work on Freemasonry is&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Msgr. George F. Dillon's _Grand Orient Freemasonry Unmasked_.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding Freemasonry's symbolism, see:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Roberts, Allen E. 1975. *[The craft and its symbols: opening the door to Masonic symbolism][2]*. Richmond: Macoy Pub. and Masonic Supply Co.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/1323598" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9231" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2222" RevisionGUID="f21f4899-29f6-4b6d-ab26-81f29ff378a3" CreationDate="2017-01-02T04:21:27.377" UserId="3157" Text="Gods and monsters are (usually) born. What about satyrs and fauns? Were they created? Born? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;I'm tagging Greek and Roman mythology, but open to other mythologies as well." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9232" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2222" RevisionGUID="f21f4899-29f6-4b6d-ab26-81f29ff378a3" CreationDate="2017-01-02T04:21:27.377" UserId="3157" Text="Where do satyrs and fauns com from?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9233" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2222" RevisionGUID="f21f4899-29f6-4b6d-ab26-81f29ff378a3" CreationDate="2017-01-02T04:21:27.377" UserId="3157" Text="|greek|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9234" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2222" RevisionGUID="b4ff02bd-96df-4fbb-aaa6-bfcbc6424187" CreationDate="2017-01-02T04:38:33.337" UserId="967" Comment="edited title" Text="Where do satyrs and fauns come from?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9235" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2223" RevisionGUID="06f159d8-fdb0-47f3-86be-eb8dd5f3cfd1" CreationDate="2017-01-02T04:46:11.210" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="In the [story of Uttu and Enki](http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.1.1.1#), Ninḫursaĝa cursed Enki:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ninḫursaĝa cursed the name Enki: &quot;Until his dying day, I will never look upon him with life-giving eye.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, later on in the text, after a fox, on Enki's behest, had conversed with the goddess, she apparently:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ninḫursaĝa hastened to the temple. The Anuna slipped off her garment, made ……, determined its destiny and ……. Ninḫursaĝa made Enki sit by her vagina. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and proceeded to heal him.Firstly, why did she heal Enki and secondly, what was the need for her to &quot;off her garment&quot; and make &quot;Enki sit by her vagina&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9236" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2223" RevisionGUID="06f159d8-fdb0-47f3-86be-eb8dd5f3cfd1" CreationDate="2017-01-02T04:46:11.210" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Why did Ninḫursaĝa cure Enki?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9237" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2223" RevisionGUID="06f159d8-fdb0-47f3-86be-eb8dd5f3cfd1" CreationDate="2017-01-02T04:46:11.210" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="|sumerian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9238" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2223" RevisionGUID="2d115bc8-700f-401a-ba2e-8ea481f39967" CreationDate="2017-01-02T08:34:57.780" UserId="57" Comment="flow" Text="In the [story of Uttu and Enki](http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.1.1.1#), Ninḫursaĝa cursed Enki:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ninḫursaĝa cursed the name Enki: &quot;Until his dying day, I will never look upon him with life-giving eye.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, later on in the text and after a fox conversed with the goddess on Enki's behest, she apparently:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ninḫursaĝa hastened to the temple. The Anuna slipped off her garment, made ..., determined its destiny and ... Ninḫursaĝa made Enki sit by her vagina. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and proceeded to heal him. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Firstly, why did she heal Enki and secondly, what was the need for her to &quot;off her garment&quot; and make &quot;Enki sit by her vagina&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9239" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2221" RevisionGUID="860a87b1-44fc-4df7-be0b-cb2323c722d8" CreationDate="2017-01-02T15:01:26.560" UserId="3230" Comment="added 27 characters in body" Text="In the first season of the TV show Slasher the antagonist is killing people he judges are guilty of the seven deadly sins. Each murder is different, supposedly reflecting the specific punishment the sinner would receive in hell for their sin. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't know how accurate the show's portrayals are, or even if they follow Christian tradition. What are the punishments for the seven deadly sins? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9240" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2219" RevisionGUID="29ce12a4-65da-4a52-ac34-ab297e492ade" CreationDate="2017-01-02T15:29:05.037" UserId="3307" Comment="added more description of recommended works" Text="The following work on Freemasonry gives a broad overview of its historical development: from its origins in the era of Solomon's Temple up to the 19&lt;sup&gt;th&lt;/sup&gt; century, with an emphasis on Freemasonry's plans of the past few centuries for the destruction of the Catholic Church:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Msgr. George F. Dillon's [_Grand Orient Freemasonry Unmasked_](https://archive.org/details/warofantichristw00dillrich) ([audiobook][1])&lt;br&gt;&lt;sup&gt;originally entitled: _War of Antichrist with the Church and Christian Civilization_&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding Freemasonry's symbolism, see:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Roberts, Allen E. 1975. *[The craft and its symbols: opening the door to Masonic symbolism][2]*. Richmond: Macoy Pub. and Masonic Supply Co.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sup&gt;This work is referenced in ex-32° Freemason [John Salza][3]'s 2008 book [*Why Catholics Cannot be Freemasons*][4], which describes what Freemasonry is in contrast to Catholicism.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://librivox.org/the-war-of-antichrist-with-the-church-and-christian-civilization-by-george-f-dillon/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/1323598&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.johnsalza.com/p/masonry.html#4244370708535623847&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://isidore.co/calibre/browse/book/6000" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9243" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2194" RevisionGUID="dc79ea4a-69c3-4a6b-b8fa-62141330b23f" CreationDate="2017-01-02T18:38:49.623" UserId="14" Comment="added 5 characters in body" Text="There are three prominent Hindu philosophies today: Advaita or monism, Dvaita or dualism, and Visistadvaita or qualified monism.  Now the chief exponent of Dvaita was the 13th century philosopher Madhvacharya, but that wasn't all he was.  He was a Vaishnava - someone who believes that the god Vishnu is supreme - but his brand of Vaishnavism was rather peculiar. Madhvacharya thought that Vayu the god of wind, whom he equated with the Mukhya Prana or chief vital breath, was a close associate of Vishnu.  And he even considered himself to be an incarnation of Vayu.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question is, has there been any scholarship as to the origins of Madhvacharya's Vayu-centric Vaishnava worldview?  Did Vayu start being associated with Visnnu before the time of Madhvacharya, or was this an innovation in Vaishnavism introduced by Madhvacharya?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now Vayu, like other elemental gods like Indra god of thunder, Agni god of fire, and Surya the sun god, was worshiped more in the Vedic period, but now they're hardly worshiped except in certain Hindu rituals.  But was there a revitalization of Vayu worship during the Middle Ages?  If so that might have caused Madhvacharya to incorporate Vayu into his system.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the record, I'm a Hindu and a Vaishnava, but I'm not a follower of Madhvacharya." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9244" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2224" RevisionGUID="238ca27e-0a26-4fb7-903b-22eb82ecd5da" CreationDate="2017-01-02T19:25:44.380" UserId="2892" Text="It could certainly fit under the general idea of [devolution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devolution_(biology)) by which species degrade instead of advance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also the idea of idealization of previous generations (which exists commonly as old folks taking about how much better things were back in their day) but which also exists in philosophy concepts such as the [noble savage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_savage).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You may be interested in [Hesiod's take on the 5 ages of mankind](http://www.mythography.com/myth/mythology-five-ages-of-man-according-to-hesiod/), which starts in a golden age and is all downhill from there.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; THE GOLDEN AGE:&#xD;&#xA;This was the Age of the first race of mortals, who were dubbed by Hesiod “the golden race”. This golden race was created by the gods. The Golden Age was populated by men who did not grow old, and lived during an era of endless abundance and prosperity. Since they were mortals, however, in time the members of the golden race died peaceful deaths. After death, the golden race continued to wander the earth as benevolent spirits.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; THE AGE OF IRON:&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod names this, the fifth and last race of men he lists in his Works and Days the race of iron, and counts himself among its number, for his was the Age of Iron. It is a time of turmoil, and strife, and sadness for mortals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Greek tradition, you also have Pandora, whom Hesiod also wrote about.  The &quot;[box](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora's_box#In_mythology)&quot; she opened contained all manner off ills—death and disease among them.  (Zeus ordered this as scourge to mankind, in vengeance for Prometheus' stealing of fire. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9246" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2219" RevisionGUID="6cecc63d-4212-46c5-aa79-31c9518fda80" CreationDate="2017-01-02T19:47:16.607" UserId="3307" Comment="added that the Freemason Adam Weishaupt was the founder of the Illuminati" Text="The following work on Freemasonry gives a broad overview of its historical development: from its origins in the era of Solomon's Temple up to the 19&lt;sup&gt;th&lt;/sup&gt; century, with an emphasis on Freemasonry's plans of the past few centuries for the destruction of the Catholic Church:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Msgr. George F. Dillon's [_Grand Orient Freemasonry Unmasked_](https://archive.org/details/warofantichristw00dillrich) ([audiobook][1])&lt;br&gt;&lt;sup&gt;originally entitled: _War of Antichrist with the Church and Christian Civilization_&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;    - This work frequently discusses [Adam Weishaupt][2], [the founder of the Illuminati][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding Freemasonry's symbolism, see:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Roberts, Allen E. 1975. *[The craft and its symbols: opening the door to Masonic symbolism][4]*. Richmond: Macoy Pub. and Masonic Supply Co.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sup&gt;This work is referenced in ex-32° Freemason [John Salza][5]'s 2008 book [*Why Catholics Cannot be Freemasons*][6], which describes what Freemasonry is in contrast to Catholicism.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://librivox.org/the-war-of-antichrist-with-the-church-and-christian-civilization-by-george-f-dillon/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Weishaupt&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Weishaupt#Founder_of_the_Illuminati&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/1323598&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.johnsalza.com/p/masonry.html#4244370708535623847&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://isidore.co/calibre/browse/book/6000" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9248" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2226" RevisionGUID="a69865b6-8f35-4749-91b8-55e0d045849c" CreationDate="2017-01-02T20:55:32.813" UserId="899" Text="Satyrs are specific to Greek mythology, Fauns are specifically Roman. &#xD;&#xA;Satyrs have goat's horns and horse's tails, and usually human legs, but a permanently erect penis. Fauns are more innocent but have goat legs, and are more interested in girls than wine.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greek and Roman authors say little about the origin of Satyrs and Fauns. They are minor deities, perhaps descended from Dionysus (Satyrs) or Pan (fauns) with nymphs or dryads as mothers. The ancient sources aren't clear, they didn't see this as important.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Instead the sources focus on them as lovers of wine, women and song. There is a shift, over the classic period, from satyrs as being wild, untamed forest demons, to nature gods, freed from inhibition. The association with music grew over the period.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps the association with wine and song led to an over-representation since pottery associated with wine has often survived, as have some of the songs poems and plays of the era, in which music plays a large part.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One can't properly speak of satyrs outside of a Greek context. Other cultures may have had goat-legged gods or demons, notably in the Hebrew myths recorded in Leviticus, the saiyr is a hairy or goat-like man and is often translated as satyr, although there is no suggestion that the words are cognate. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9249" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2226" RevisionGUID="c6b137d5-480d-4d40-b379-4e2bb18453ce" CreationDate="2017-01-02T21:02:24.543" UserId="967" Comment="deleted 1040 characters in body" Text="The Greek and Roman authors say little about the origin of Satyrs and Fauns. They are minor deities, perhaps descended from Dionysus (Satyrs) or Pan (fauns) with nymphs or dryads as mothers. The ancient sources aren't clear, they didn't see this as important. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9250" PostHistoryTypeId="8" PostId="2226" RevisionGUID="1730f393-df20-4cb6-b707-7791f1c674ce" CreationDate="2017-01-02T21:18:57.760" UserId="899" Comment="Rollback to [a69865b6-8f35-4749-91b8-55e0d045849c]" Text="Satyrs are specific to Greek mythology, Fauns are specifically Roman. &#xD;&#xA;Satyrs have goat's horns and horse's tails, and usually human legs, but a permanently erect penis. Fauns are more innocent but have goat legs, and are more interested in girls than wine.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greek and Roman authors say little about the origin of Satyrs and Fauns. They are minor deities, perhaps descended from Dionysus (Satyrs) or Pan (fauns) with nymphs or dryads as mothers. The ancient sources aren't clear, they didn't see this as important.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Instead the sources focus on them as lovers of wine, women and song. There is a shift, over the classic period, from satyrs as being wild, untamed forest demons, to nature gods, freed from inhibition. The association with music grew over the period.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps the association with wine and song led to an over-representation since pottery associated with wine has often survived, as have some of the songs poems and plays of the era, in which music plays a large part.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One can't properly speak of satyrs outside of a Greek context. Other cultures may have had goat-legged gods or demons, notably in the Hebrew myths recorded in Leviticus, the saiyr is a hairy or goat-like man and is often translated as satyr, although there is no suggestion that the words are cognate. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9264" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1766" RevisionGUID="bded830a-1271-4a85-a243-c3406bf0f07b" CreationDate="2017-01-04T05:54:17.877" UserId="2715" Comment="deleted 28 characters in body" Text="Zeus kidnapped Europa and took her from Greece, to an island across the sea in lust. The people of her kingdom(she was a princess) freaked out and tried to find her but they never came across the particular island. Eventually they gave up, and called the general area where she had been Europa, which over time, became Europe." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9265" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2231" RevisionGUID="69a841f7-790d-4140-9c57-e909bfaecb5a" CreationDate="2017-01-04T11:37:09.070" UserId="2762" Text="Like many similar topics, the answer is slightly muddled by different sources, but there is an excellent collation available at: http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/Satyroi.html in the section 'Parentage of the Satyrs'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To summarise though, the answer is 'Born' - the union of a minor, rustic god and something else." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9266" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2232" RevisionGUID="49eda71f-4c7a-4f86-8f11-9d8fe4393813" CreationDate="2017-01-04T11:40:13.373" UserId="430" Text="Since Medieval times the following punishments have been assigned to the 7 deadly sins. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. **Pride** - You will be broken on the wheel&#xD;&#xA; 2. **Envy** - Placed in freezing water&#xD;&#xA; 3. **Gluttony** - Force fed rats, toads and snakes&#xD;&#xA; 4. **Lust** - Covered in fire and brimstone&#xD;&#xA; 5. **Anger** - Live dismemberment&#xD;&#xA; 6. **Greed** - Boiled in oil&#xD;&#xA; 7. **Sloth** - Thrown into a snake pit&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The list of the 7 sins came first from *Pope Gregory I* in *590 AD*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dante then wrote his *Purgatorio* &amp; *Inferno* with descriptions given as to the punishments given for the sins. These were sometimes conflicted between the two books, for example in *Purgatorio* the punishment for lust was to be walk in flames, however in *Inferno* the souls of those that had committed the sin of lust were blown upon the winds. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dante also wrote that anyone that committed any of the deadly sins would never be able to look upon the face of God. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Various Theologians came up with the accepted punishments over the years.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9267" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2232" RevisionGUID="a83c06ca-1bfa-4ace-acbb-8249b22b831e" CreationDate="2017-01-04T11:45:52.987" UserId="430" Comment="added 236 characters in body" Text="Since Medieval times the following punishments have been assigned to the 7 deadly sins. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. **Pride** - You will be broken on the wheel&#xD;&#xA; 2. **Envy** - Placed in freezing water&#xD;&#xA; 3. **Gluttony** - Force fed rats, toads and snakes&#xD;&#xA; 4. **Lust** - Covered in fire and brimstone&#xD;&#xA; 5. **Anger** - Live dismemberment&#xD;&#xA; 6. **Greed** - Boiled in oil&#xD;&#xA; 7. **Sloth** - Thrown into a snake pit&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The list of the 7 sins came first from *Pope Gregory I* in *590 AD*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dante then wrote his *Purgatorio* &amp; *Inferno* with descriptions given as to the punishments given for the sins. These were sometimes conflicted between the two books, for example in *Purgatorio* the punishment for lust was to be walk in flames, however in *Inferno* the souls of those that had committed the sin of lust were blown upon the winds. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dante also wrote that anyone that committed any of the deadly sins would never be able to look upon the face of God. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Various Theologians came up with the accepted punishments detailed above over the centuries following Pope Gregory I's official naming of the sins.  &#xD;&#xA;Numerous books on the 7 Deadly sins, as well as a number of websites, for example [http://www.deadlysins.com][1]/ detail these.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.deadlysins.com/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9268" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2232" RevisionGUID="c7c11637-e311-48bb-89d2-789b4f5d76ce" CreationDate="2017-01-04T12:45:34.360" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved formatting." Text="Since Medieval times the following punishments have been assigned to the 7 deadly sins. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. **Pride** - You will be broken on the wheel&#xD;&#xA; 2. **Envy** - Placed in freezing water&#xD;&#xA; 3. **Gluttony** - Force fed rats, toads and snakes&#xD;&#xA; 4. **Lust** - Covered in fire and brimstone&#xD;&#xA; 5. **Anger** - Live dismemberment&#xD;&#xA; 6. **Greed** - Boiled in oil&#xD;&#xA; 7. **Sloth** - Thrown into a snake pit&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The list of the 7 sins came first from *Pope Gregory I* in *590 AD*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dante then wrote his *Purgatorio* &amp; *Inferno* with descriptions given as to the punishments given for the sins. These were sometimes conflicted between the two books, for example in *Purgatorio* the punishment for lust was to be walk in flames, however in *Inferno* the souls of those that had committed the sin of lust were blown upon the winds. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dante also wrote that anyone that committed any of the deadly sins would never be able to look upon the face of God. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Various Theologians came up with the accepted punishments detailed above over the centuries following Pope Gregory I's official naming of the sins.  &#xD;&#xA;Numerous books on the 7 Deadly sins, as well as a number of websites, for example [Sins, Virtues, and Tales][1] explains these nicely.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.deadlysins.com/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9269" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2232" RevisionGUID="c7c11637-e311-48bb-89d2-789b4f5d76ce" CreationDate="2017-01-04T12:45:34.360" Comment="Proposed by 1241 approved by 430 edit id of 413" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9270" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="919" RevisionGUID="479bb40a-0158-44c6-a611-b9157b1c439a" CreationDate="2017-01-04T17:51:31.443" UserDisplayName="user93" Comment="revive dead link" Text="It is typically assumed that when similarities are found between Christianity and another religion, whether in myth, dogma, or practice, the flow of influence is syncretism *into* Christianity. This tendency is largely due to the many instances of Catholic hagiology (mythology about the Saints) appearing much like myths from earlier pagan times *before* Christianity had heavy influence over the area.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is very likely some level of influence, however, **it is Christianity that influenced myths about Loki.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The earliest Norse myths involving Loki portray a character that is certainly a trickster, but not malicious. There are many instances of Loki engaging in a good deal of intentional mischief, but also resourceful and helpful, giving inventions to humans, and eventually resolving his mostly harmless mischief. However, by the 10th century, after nearly 200 years of significant Christian influence, Loki's myths make him out to be a much darker character. In a myth involving a character named Baldr (who was certainly influenced by Christian depictions of Jesus), Loki is an evil specimen that murders Baldr out of jealousy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When they capture Loki, he is held in a prison until Ragnarok (the Norse apocalypse that was also likely influenced by Christianity) and tortured by having a perpetual stream of snake venom drip into is face.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Loki's evil nature and jealousy (of a Christ like image especially) and his ultimate tortuous imprisonment was undoubtedly influenced by Christian perceptions of Satan.** In Christian mythology, Satan is evil. And the eschatology (apocalyptic theology) revolving around him involves an eternity of torment, which is undoubtedly because of his heinous misdeeds against God, humanity, and the rest of creation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This progression for trickster gods to take on a darker persona as the centuries pass is actually quite common (Satan in Job, for example, is not necessarily evil, but is certainly an accuser and adversary, but by Revelation he *is* patently evil). It is therefore expected that Loki would become more like Satan as Christianity influenced the Norse mythos, because Satan had already progressed into a personification of evil centuries earlier. Without Christian influence, Loki still likely would have become more evil and less trickster, so the rising influence of Christianity in Norse areas and Loki's conversion to an evil character may have been coincidental, however it does seem likely that Christianity at least hastened the process.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;SOURCES&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [*Lucifer: The Devil in the Middle Ages*][1] - &quot;The parallels between Loki and Satan are striking but are for the most part Christian coloring of paganism rather than the opposite.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;2. [*The Trickster, the Devil, and an Ambiguous World* - The Anthropik Network][3] [Web Archive] - &quot;It’s fairly easy to divide stories about Loki into two historical categories: pre-Christianity, and post-Christianity.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;3. [*A Brief History of the Vikings*][4] - &quot;By the [10th century], Loki had perhaps been influenced by several centuries of Christian lore, and was now seen as a far more devilish figure that he may originally have been.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;4. *[Archetypes and Motifs in Folklore and Literature][5]* - &quot;Tales of Loki's evil and binding are clearly influenced by the later Christian identification of Loki and the Devil (tricksters, perhaps because of their profane character, are often equated with the Devil if their original culture is converted to Christianity).&quot;&#xD;&#xA;5. [*Völuspá* - New Advent][2] - &quot;Balder, the innocent god, is treacherously slain through the machinations of the wicked Loki.&quot; and &quot;Christian influence is not only possible, but certain.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;6. [Viking Religion - BBC History][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;NOTES&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [*A New Place for Loki, Part II* on Polytheist.com][7] states that &quot;since Loki was a deity who I believe was originally responsible for carrying burnt sacrifices to the gods and freeing the souls of the dead via cremation, it is only natural that the Catholic Church would have found him particularly deplorable.&quot; There are many sources for the article, but I have not looked through them. There is a certain level of sense to the claim, but without vetting it, the source finds itself in the notes section instead.&#xD;&#xA;2. [*Christmas in Germany: A Cultural History*][8] states &quot;The Norse God Loki [et al.] ... contributed to Elm's syncretic descriptions of Christmas custom.&quot; A different topic, but interesting.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=i_AcX5Znv6cC&amp;pg=PA65&amp;lpg=PA65&amp;dq=how%20did%20christianity%20influence%20loki&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=AhrGkhMI-T&amp;sig=aAVpfHl_Q9imD5cYN9A7x9DtMp4&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0CDgQ6AEwAzgKahUKEwjmttfryovGAhUNmYgKHVwBAGQ#v=onepage&amp;q=how%20did%20christianity%20influence%20loki&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15507a.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://web.archive.org/web/20150916095004/http://rewild.com/anthropik/2006/06/the-trickster-the-devil-and-an-ambiguous-world/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://books.google.com/books?id=j6jABAAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT28&amp;lpg=PT28&amp;dq=how%20did%20christianity%20influence%20loki&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=PjDgMl1QoH&amp;sig=aPwf-G8MX9-cSxDwWtiTHKxSKtQ&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0CE8Q6AEwCDgKahUKEwjmttfryovGAhUNmYgKHVwBAGQ#v=onepage&amp;q=how%20did%20christianity%20influence%20loki&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://books.google.com/books?id=Cn6pWMverBIC&amp;pg=PA478&amp;lpg=PA478&amp;dq=how%20did%20christianity%20influence%20loki&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=uH2Z1vtWds&amp;sig=lOmVFmDB4MDkDMHnz4bvam_wSv8&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0CFIQ6AEwCTgKahUKEwjmttfryovGAhUNmYgKHVwBAGQ#v=onepage&amp;q=how%20did%20christianity%20influence%20loki&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/vikings/religion_01.shtml&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://polytheist.com/orgrandr-lokean/2014/09/23/a-new-place-for-loki-part-ii/&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://books.google.com/books?id=HQiFgiRrLQwC&amp;pg=PA57&amp;lpg=PA57&amp;dq=loki%20catholic%20syncretism&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=NMyjo9O0KV&amp;sig=4xhHSxgOFpnrjTVXeFSW1P9IcAs&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0CFMQ6AEwB2oVChMI6diL-b2LxgIVEjSICh2kRQAv#v=onepage&amp;q=loki%20catholic%20syncretism&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9271" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2233" RevisionGUID="7fdc033c-fb98-4106-91e8-4fdfc2ad833f" CreationDate="2017-01-04T17:52:02.033" UserId="812" Text="I keep getting references to this deity (they cite the work of Wilhelm Heinrich Roscher &quot;Detailed dictionary of Greek and Roman mythology&quot;) in some websites regarding it as the origin of the word Judaism so i was wondering whats the story of this god, a god over what was he, where did it come from, how was he worshipped, what did it do, etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://assemblyoftrueisrael.com/TruthPage/the_word_jew.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9272" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2233" RevisionGUID="7fdc033c-fb98-4106-91e8-4fdfc2ad833f" CreationDate="2017-01-04T17:52:02.033" UserId="812" Text="Who was the greek god iudaios?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9273" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2233" RevisionGUID="7fdc033c-fb98-4106-91e8-4fdfc2ad833f" CreationDate="2017-01-04T17:52:02.033" UserId="812" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9274" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2234" RevisionGUID="24b79f24-84cb-455b-9442-79f3e0ea3602" CreationDate="2017-01-04T18:13:18.543" UserId="2892" Text="I suspect there is some confusion here regarding the word itself, and that the sites mentioning &quot;Iudaios&quot; as a Greek god may be unreliable.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;[Ioudaios](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioudaios)&quot; is a Greek word used to connote Jews in classical and biblical literature.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9275" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2235" RevisionGUID="112afa29-8451-440b-adb5-7569605356ae" CreationDate="2017-01-04T18:29:53.280" UserId="3326" Text="The Norse æsir gods had animal helpers, but did anyone of them have a bear? Have bears been found in graves, like dogs and horses et cetera? Are there Norse illustration of bears?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some Norse warriors were called berserks because they wore the fur of bears. And fur from bears was an important export good.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it lost in the tradition because there never were any bears on Iceland?&#xD;&#xA;And absent from archaeology because one couldn't sacrifice a wild animal that one doesn't own.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But while the wolf was an as dangerous animal, it was semi-domesticated and Odin owned wolves. Am I just missing alot of references to bears in Asgard, or did the bear have a different kind of role to play than other animals?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9276" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2235" RevisionGUID="112afa29-8451-440b-adb5-7569605356ae" CreationDate="2017-01-04T18:29:53.280" UserId="3326" Text="What was the role of the bear in Norse mythology? (Are there bears in Asgard?)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9277" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2235" RevisionGUID="112afa29-8451-440b-adb5-7569605356ae" CreationDate="2017-01-04T18:29:53.280" UserId="3326" Text="|norse|animals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9278" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2233" RevisionGUID="6349fcfb-5801-4992-bdf1-421da3deee88" CreationDate="2017-01-04T18:59:37.700" UserId="812" Comment="clarified why i linked to a website" Text="I keep getting references to this deity (they cite the work of Wilhelm Heinrich Roscher &quot;Detailed dictionary of Greek and Roman mythology&quot;) in some websites regarding it as the origin of the word Judaism so i was wondering whats the story of this god, a god over what was he, where did it come from, how was he worshipped, what did it do, etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the websites mentioning this deity: http://assemblyoftrueisrael.com/TruthPage/the_word_jew.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9279" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2236" RevisionGUID="dd4771b7-e0c5-4d13-bd04-3daf9caff359" CreationDate="2017-01-04T19:11:52.783" UserId="2892" Text="I grew up believing it was all because of Baldur.  But murder, especially by proxy, was not quite the capital crime in the age or heroes as it is today.  *(Not to mention, what's the rationale for &quot;We really love this guy so much and he's nigh-invincible.  Hey, I know, let's throw axes at him all day to express our affection!&quot;  Is it just me, or were they asking for trouble?)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As an adult however, I came to believe Loki's binding was actually because of the [flyting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lokasenna) delivered to the self-satisfied gods who denied him his due honor. *(And let's face it, Loki's gifts were pretty sweet--Sleipnir and the walls of Asgard come to mind.)*  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what's the answer?  Is it black &amp; white or shades of grey? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9280" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2236" RevisionGUID="dd4771b7-e0c5-4d13-bd04-3daf9caff359" CreationDate="2017-01-04T19:11:52.783" UserId="2892" Text="Why was Loki bound, really?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9281" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2236" RevisionGUID="dd4771b7-e0c5-4d13-bd04-3daf9caff359" CreationDate="2017-01-04T19:11:52.783" UserId="2892" Text="|norse|loki|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9282" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2237" RevisionGUID="06a956db-d0cf-46bc-a89e-58d81fdad5d2" CreationDate="2017-01-04T21:21:29.710" UserId="666" Text="Bears do not feature much in Norse mythology, at least when it comes to the stories involving the gods. The one story I can think of which even mentions them is how Gleipnir, the chain that fettered Fenrir, was made: one ingredient was the &quot;sinews of a bear&quot;, together with several more fantastic items, such as the breath of a fish.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, they do appear in other stories: in the story of Hrólf Kraki, the hero Bödvar Bjarki (the norse version of Beowulf) is asleep during a great battle, but it turns out that there is a great bear fighting in his stead. When he is woken up, the bear disappears. This is told in the [Bjarkamál][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for art, the only thing I can think of is some Vendel era metalwork, which contains what looks like a bear-man:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bjarkam%C3%A1l&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/xopNP.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9283" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2233" RevisionGUID="49d2d4a1-da79-448b-89a7-b347021f90fd" CreationDate="2017-01-05T00:59:02.300" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved formatting." Text="I keep getting references to this deity (they cite the work of Wilhelm Heinrich Roscher &quot;Detailed dictionary of Greek and Roman mythology&quot;) in some websites regarding it as the origin of the word Judaism so I was wondering whats the story of this god, a god over what was he, where did it come from, how was he worshipped, what did it do, etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the websites mentioning this deity: [The Word &quot;Jew&quot; and the Scriptures](http://assemblyoftrueisrael.com/TruthPage/the_word_jew.html)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9284" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2233" RevisionGUID="49d2d4a1-da79-448b-89a7-b347021f90fd" CreationDate="2017-01-05T00:59:02.300" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved formatting." Text="Who was the Greek god Iudaios?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9285" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2233" RevisionGUID="49d2d4a1-da79-448b-89a7-b347021f90fd" CreationDate="2017-01-05T00:59:02.300" Comment="Proposed by 1241 approved by 967, 292 edit id of 414" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9286" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2238" RevisionGUID="470e5318-d281-4814-8239-71799e6a27dc" CreationDate="2017-01-05T01:16:10.683" UserId="292" Text="You raise a really good point. It is strange that there are no bears in Norse myth. The wolf seems to have really engaged them, perhaps because of the duality of wolf/dog, tame and wild, while the bear to them was totally wild.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;I wonder if @LocalFluff isn't on to something, because [berserks][2] were seen as totally outside society, too unpredicatable and dangerous to have around. (In [Egils saga][3] Skallgrim kills a servant when the berserker rage descends on him, and nealy kills his son.) A wolf could become a dog, but you can't tame a bear and put it to use or have it as a pet. &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;By the way there were a kind of berserkers, [ulfhednar][1], who turned into wolves, although you don't hear so much about them.  &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;PS - The [Lewis chessmen][4] include berserks, biting their shields.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://fuckyeahnorsemythology.tumblr.com/post/97672399212/berserkers-and-ulfhednar-viking-ninja&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends/viking-berserkers-fierce-warriors-or-drug-fuelled-madmen-001472&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/berserke.shtml&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.artsmarttalk.com/artblog/chess-history-charm-the-lewis-chessman" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9287" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2239" RevisionGUID="d2b898d5-2fd3-4201-8e6c-b841acc7a329" CreationDate="2017-01-05T01:25:50.420" UserId="292" Text="In a way, you could say that Loki was bound to fufill a prophecy. As the cosmological poem Voluspa tells us, when Loki frees himself from his bonds, the doom of the gods will begin. So Loki has to be bound so he can get free and lead the giants against the gods.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;One of the most convincing explanations I've ever seen for Loki's behaviour in *Lokasenna* is that he wants the gods to bind him so that he can bring on the end. His first step in that direction was to kill Baldr, so now he has to force the gods to doom themselves. (John McKinnell's &quot;Motivation in Lokasenna&quot; is one article that takes this view. You can see [the pdf here][1].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.vsnrweb-publications.org.uk/Saga-Book%20XXII.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9288" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2240" RevisionGUID="50e1906d-daaa-4a69-9e94-3123ab0e7a33" CreationDate="2017-01-05T02:42:28.357" UserDisplayName="user3327" Text="Does anyone have any real proof not from comics or movies" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9289" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2240" RevisionGUID="50e1906d-daaa-4a69-9e94-3123ab0e7a33" CreationDate="2017-01-05T02:42:28.357" UserDisplayName="user3327" Text="Is Diana themeskara real?if so is Atlantis real?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9290" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2240" RevisionGUID="50e1906d-daaa-4a69-9e94-3123ab0e7a33" CreationDate="2017-01-05T02:42:28.357" UserDisplayName="user3327" Text="|myth-identification|arthurian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9291" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="2194" RevisionGUID="b11bd101-6971-4307-a7f4-4b3e0b22a058" CreationDate="2017-01-05T03:04:20.257" UserId="-1" Comment="36" />
  <row Id="9292" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2240" RevisionGUID="90c83c8a-ed9f-4664-b75e-a4bc1fb95b5b" CreationDate="2017-01-05T03:15:00.750" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9293" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2240" RevisionGUID="90c83c8a-ed9f-4664-b75e-a4bc1fb95b5b" CreationDate="2017-01-05T03:15:00.750" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="Does anyone have any real proof not from comics or movies that Diana Themyscira is real? If so, is Atlantis real?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9294" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2240" RevisionGUID="90c83c8a-ed9f-4664-b75e-a4bc1fb95b5b" CreationDate="2017-01-05T03:15:00.750" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="Is Diana Themyscira real? If so is Atlantis real?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9297" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2241" RevisionGUID="eed88bc9-a0af-4271-b11b-ef7a661cb017" CreationDate="2017-01-05T14:42:05.320" UserId="2892" Text="A [flyting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flyting) has been defined as: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;a contest consisting of the exchange of insults, often conducted in verse, between two parties.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Parks, Ward. &quot;Flyting, Sounding, Debate: Three Verbal Contest Genres&quot;, Poetics Today 7.3, Poetics of Fiction (1986:439-458)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So are flytings the forebearer of [Rap Battles](https://youtu.be/ylkOAtifuJ0)?  Are there other cultures where a poetic battle of wits played a central role in the mythos, such as in the [Loksenna](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lokasenna)?  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9298" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2241" RevisionGUID="eed88bc9-a0af-4271-b11b-ef7a661cb017" CreationDate="2017-01-05T14:42:05.320" UserId="2892" Text="Are Norse flytings the spiritual forebearer of the modern rap battle?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9299" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2241" RevisionGUID="eed88bc9-a0af-4271-b11b-ef7a661cb017" CreationDate="2017-01-05T14:42:05.320" UserId="2892" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9300" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2241" RevisionGUID="9ac28f18-5938-45c1-bf76-a9d7d1da3aa8" CreationDate="2017-01-05T14:50:57.533" UserId="2892" Comment="Added a direct reference to Eminem and 8 Mile--not going to lie--it's a bald attempt to draw some traffic to Stack Mythology" Text="A [flyting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flyting) has been defined as: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;a contest consisting of the exchange of insults, often conducted in verse, between two parties.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Parks, Ward. &quot;Flyting, Sounding, Debate: Three Verbal Contest Genres&quot;, Poetics Today 7.3, Poetics of Fiction (1986:439-458)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So are flytings the forebearer of [Rap Battles](https://youtu.be/ylkOAtifuJ0), such as the one depicted in the film 8 Mile between Eminem and Papa Doc?  Are there other cultures where a poetic battle of wits played a central role in the mythos, such as with the [Loksenna](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lokasenna)?  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9302" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2242" RevisionGUID="7927a248-9feb-40c5-a47a-ea6c7811c418" CreationDate="2017-01-05T15:16:12.693" UserId="2892" Text="Although Wonder Woman is a modern invention, the legends of the [Amazons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazons) do derive from actual Greek mythology.  The most famous Amazon is surely [Hippolyta](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippolyta_(DC_Comics)) who took [Theseus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theseus) as her husband.  (As a Wonder Woman fan, you will know that her mother is named for this actual, mythological figure.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Atlantis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantis) also comes from the Classical period, although it is not a location of mythological stories per se, but first appears in [Plato](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_(Plato)) as part of an allegory on national [hubris](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no evidence that Atlantis was anything other than an invention of Plato, although many have speculated to the contrary. It does not re-appear in literature until the Renaissance with writers such as [Francis Bacon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Atlantis) and [Thomas Moore](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopia_(book)) who utilized the idea of Atlantis for philosophical purposes in the tradition of Plato.  &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9304" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2234" RevisionGUID="f2e92f73-23b7-4f47-9825-0989d8b71a74" CreationDate="2017-01-05T15:53:22.403" UserId="2892" Comment="Revised answer based on addition of a link in the question" Text="I suspect there is some confusion here regarding the word itself, and that the sites mentioning &quot;Iudaios&quot; as a Greek god may be unreliable.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The linked site is certainly unreliable, and the article would not pass scholarly muster for a number of reasons, including suspiciously poor citation of sources.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The etymological analysis presented in the Assembly of Yahweh article is unconvincing as they don't even use the languages of origin.  Vowels work differently in ancient Hebrew so word analysis lacking the original Hebrew is not useful. Ancient Greek also has a different set of vowels than English, notably eta/epsilon, omega/omicron, and is furthermore affected by the loss of the [digamma](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digamma) which still affects, for instance, how certain verbs are conjugated.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I couldn't find an English translation of Roscher's *Ausführliches Lexikon der griechischen und römischen Mythologie* in order to get a look at his entry on &quot;Iudaios&quot;, which doesn't seem to appear in any other work.  What I can tell you is that the field of Classics was quite new when Roscher was writing, and lack of subsequent scholars writing about Iudaios is a pretty good indication there is no basis for Roscher's claim.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9305" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2243" RevisionGUID="cb9d2b8a-094b-47c7-b724-b58adde6004f" CreationDate="2017-01-05T17:30:55.767" UserId="3302" Text="First things first, lets give some context;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* [Catholic Templars][1] were a Catholic military group that were very wealthy and very skilled.  But after the Holy Land was lost in the crusades, mistrust built on them and rumors started to spread about them, leading to...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Baphomet is a statue that represented an idol, said to be worshiped by the Templars&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The symbolic head of the goat of Mendes is occasionally given to this figure, and it is then the Baphomet of the Templars and the Word of the Gnostics, bizarre images which became scarecrows for the vulgar after affording food for reflection to sages – innocent hieroglyphs of thought and faith which have been a pretext for the rage of persecutions. How pitiable are men in their ignorance, but how they would despise themselves if only they came to know!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Dogma et Rituel de la Haute Magie (translated)&lt;sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Satanism is the belief that Satan, or any form of the devil, is the main force.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So it appears the Baphomet is associated with both the Catholic templars and [Satanism][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which association of Baphomet came chronologically first?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1853/why-are-goats-associated-with-satan" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9306" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2243" RevisionGUID="cb9d2b8a-094b-47c7-b724-b58adde6004f" CreationDate="2017-01-05T17:30:55.767" UserId="3302" Text="Is Baphomet associated chronologically more.with satanism or catholic templars?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9307" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2243" RevisionGUID="cb9d2b8a-094b-47c7-b724-b58adde6004f" CreationDate="2017-01-05T17:30:55.767" UserId="3302" Text="|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9310" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2243" RevisionGUID="3353cc1c-39ad-4190-88fd-a076fc1eb352" CreationDate="2017-01-05T17:37:50.483" UserId="2892" Comment="Massaged the question text" Text="First things first, lets give some context;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* [Catholic Templars][1] were a Catholic military group that were very wealthy and very skilled.  But after the Holy Land was lost in the crusades, mistrust built on them and rumors started to spread about them, leading to...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Baphomet is a statue that represented an idol, said to be worshiped by the Templars&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The symbolic head of the goat of Mendes is occasionally given to this figure, and it is then the Baphomet of the Templars and the Word of the Gnostics, bizarre images which became scarecrows for the vulgar after affording food for reflection to sages – innocent hieroglyphs of thought and faith which have been a pretext for the rage of persecutions. How pitiable are men in their ignorance, but how they would despise themselves if only they came to know!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Dogma et Rituel de la Haute Magie (translated)&lt;sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Satanism is the belief that Satan, or any form of the devil, is the main force.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So it appears the Baphomet is associated with both the Catholic templars and [Satanism][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which association of Baphomet came first?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1853/why-are-goats-associated-with-satan" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9311" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2243" RevisionGUID="3353cc1c-39ad-4190-88fd-a076fc1eb352" CreationDate="2017-01-05T17:37:50.483" UserId="2892" Comment="Massaged the question text" Text="Is Baphomet chronologically more closely associated with Satanism or the Templars?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9314" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="2240" RevisionGUID="90dc0965-e360-4e02-8586-762daf4c0d67" CreationDate="2017-01-05T20:50:45.040" UserId="183" Comment="103" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:967,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;bleh&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:111,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;plannapus&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:201,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Lauren Ipsum&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:183,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;HDE 226868&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="9315" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2244" RevisionGUID="d1955a9c-c2cc-4a45-8b70-973b956b59f2" CreationDate="2017-01-05T21:07:43.043" UserId="2892" Text="When I first read [Grettir's Saga](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grettis_saga#Story). I was impressed by his indomitability and that his foes had to use magic to weaken him in order to overcome him. To this end they employed a crone.  (She enchants a log which floats to Drang Isle and Grettir's axe slips and wounds him when he attempts to chop it up for firewood.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The parallel with the [death of Cúchulainn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Chulainn#C.C3.BA_Chulainn.27s_death) is striking.  Also indomitable, it is is his interaction with a crone that weakens him before his ultimate defeat.  (In this case, the hero is presented with conflicting taboos--a lose/lose situation.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Angrboða](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angrbo%C3%B0a) is another such figure in the sense that Odin and Thor only ultimately fall because of her offspring [Fenrir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenrir#Gylfaginning_chapters_38_and_51) and [Jörmungandr](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rmungandr#Final_battle).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What are some other examples of female agency in the mythology and sagas of Northern and Western Europe?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_________&#xD;&#xA;Note: I know that the term &quot;female agency&quot; has a spectrum of definitions, but here I am using it in the sense of &quot;the active role of the female in a particular genre or endeavor&quot;.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9316" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2244" RevisionGUID="d1955a9c-c2cc-4a45-8b70-973b956b59f2" CreationDate="2017-01-05T21:07:43.043" UserId="2892" Text="Examples of female agency in Norse and Celtic mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9317" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2244" RevisionGUID="d1955a9c-c2cc-4a45-8b70-973b956b59f2" CreationDate="2017-01-05T21:07:43.043" UserId="2892" Text="|norse|celtic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9319" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2243" RevisionGUID="d0d8deb8-43c1-4b9f-8269-2f3749a5248f" CreationDate="2017-01-05T22:11:05.623" UserId="967" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="First things first, lets give some context;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* [Catholic Templars][1] were a Catholic military group that were very wealthy and very skilled.  But after the Holy Land was lost in the crusades, mistrust built on them and rumors started to spread about them, leading to...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Baphomet is a statue that represented an idol, said to be worshiped by the Templars&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The symbolic head of the goat of Mendes is occasionally given to this figure, and it is then the Baphomet of the Templars and the Word of the Gnostics, bizarre images which became scarecrows for the vulgar after affording food for reflection to sages – innocent hieroglyphs of thought and faith which have been a pretext for the rage of persecutions. How pitiable are men in their ignorance, but how they would despise themselves if only they came to know!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Dogma et Rituel de la Haute Magie (translated)&lt;sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Satanism is the belief that Satan, or any form of the devil, is the main force.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So it appears the Baphomet is associated with both the Catholic templars and [Satanism][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which association of Baphomet came first?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1853/why-are-goats-associated-with-satan" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9320" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2245" RevisionGUID="0c7dd8db-5aa3-4366-88db-c436ba77b43a" CreationDate="2017-01-06T07:30:53.870" UserId="666" Text="The Norse myths focusing on the gods are very spare with female agency, at least if we define it as them acting and being an integral part of the story: it is usually men that does stuff (the extreme example of this is when Loki gets pregnant and gives birth!). For a discussion on why, I can recommend Margaret Clunies Ross *Prolonged echoes* (it does stretch the material somewhat and has a few omissions, but the central ideas are interesting and she makes use of rather obscure material sometimes).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That is not to say that females taking centre stage is totally unheard of. Here are some examples of longer stories:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The most prominent example is possible how Gefjon made an agreement with Swedish king Gylfi that she could have all land she could plow in a day. She went and got kids with a giant, turned them into giant bulls, and plowed up lake Mälaren, which was moved and turned into Zeeland in Denmark. This is in *Gylfaginning* and *Heimskringla* &#xD;&#xA; - The giantess Skadi, following the death of her father Thjazi at the hands of the Gods, goes to them to demand settlement of the bloodfeud (which she could do even as a female as she was the sole surviving family member). She ends up in an unhappy marriage with Njord because of this. This is mainly retold in *Skáldskaparmál*.&#xD;&#xA; - Freya appears in two stories: in the poem *Hyndluljóð*, she helps her servant Óttar  get answers he seeks from the jötunn Hyndla, by turning him into a boar and asking questions for him. She also, in *Sörla þáttr*, had to get back Brisingamen form Odin after Loki had stolen it by making two kings fight each other for eternity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These are examples of fleshed out stories where the goddesses acts on their own; there are also allusions in poetry to stories which have been otherwise lost or informed abilities where the goddesses must have some agency.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we turn to more legendary material, there are plenty of examples, including  shield maidens. The *Hervarar saga ok Heiðreks* is one of the more prominent examples." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9321" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2246" RevisionGUID="44bd887a-fe3e-468c-b051-df268bf2fdb6" CreationDate="2017-01-06T14:09:24.010" UserId="2774" Text="It is very hard to give you a good explanation here for those reasons:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Sumerians myths are old, very old, de facto they are (and will probably stay) the actual oldest writings made by human beings, which makes them hard to access&#xD;&#xA; - Sumerians myths are difficult to read, I often (very) insist on that point. One has to see that human beings was learning to write. And it took time to see human beings fully mastering writing. Not that Sumerian writers was bad, they was not, they was just subtly bad.&#xD;&#xA; - Most myths come way too incomplete. Try to imagine watching the Empire Strikes Back in 3017, but when Darth Vader is approaching Luke he says: Luke, I... and the movie stops there. That what are Sumerians myths. We are missing, the puns, jokes, reference, culture and sometimes part of the text.&#xD;&#xA; - The modern world is the heir of the monotheisms (Jews, Christians and Muslims). The proximity between this particular myth and the Genesis is quite stunning. Enough to guess the Genesis's root are something by there. Hebrews was never in contact with Sumerians. Sumerians was long history when the Genesis was written (around 1500-1400 BC). But Hebrews was knowing Sumerians myths via the Canaans. There is a quite subtle side effect here. Any modern reader reading the story of Ninhurshag and Enki will see it through the Bible's Eden lens.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The myth of Ninhursaga and Enki is a pure myth of creation. From the point of view of a society who need irrigation for surviving, as Egyptian by the way. You can compare with Indian myths (another river civilization, with lots of rain) or Mayan myths (a rain civilization with irrigation in mountains zone). Enki, the Sumerian God of water (he is the wise Ea in later Mesopotamia, and he is known as Ea as far as the Hittite) is depiticed having several time sex and children with various woman. The first being Ninhursaga, the Sumerian Mother Goddess (Call her Gaia in Greek myths, Xmucane in Mayan myth). They got a girl Ninsar the Sumerian goddess of vegetation). Enki seeing her has sex with her.One could see here incest in action which is obviously not the case. That is simply: When you pour water on ground, you have plants. When you pour water on plants they grow. This little game is going on a moment with Enki voraciously having sex with his own offspring (Ninurka, the mountain goddess), Ninimma (the goddess of female sexual energy) and finally Uttu, the destiny goddess notto be confonded with Utu the sun god, brother of Innana.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The first thing to see here is the all importance of Enki, creating gods and gods. As well as his strong sexual appetite. Part of the following up of this myth will resolve in a form of blame of Enki when he tries to (and factually does) mate with Uttu. For tha" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9322" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2246" RevisionGUID="af070e2d-8898-41d3-9b8b-62bcac7458b8" CreationDate="2017-01-06T15:03:35.103" UserId="2774" Comment="added some details" Text="It is very hard to give you a good explanation here for those reasons:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Sumerians myths are old, very old, de facto they are (and will probably stay) the actual oldest writings made by human beings, which makes them hard to access&#xD;&#xA; - Sumerians myths are difficult to read, I often (very) insist on that point. One has to see that human beings was learning to write. And it took time to see human beings fully mastering writing. Not that Sumerian writers was bad, they was not, they was just subtly bad.&#xD;&#xA; - Most myths come way too incomplete. Try to imagine watching the Empire Strikes Back in 3017, but when Darth Vader is approaching Luke he says: Luke, I... and the movie stops there. That what are Sumerians myths. We are missing, the puns, jokes, reference, culture and sometimes part of the text.&#xD;&#xA; - The modern world is the heir of the monotheisms (Jews, Christians and Muslims). The proximity between this particular myth and the Genesis is quite stunning. Enough to guess the Genesis's root are something by there. Hebrews was never in contact with Sumerians. Sumerians was long history when the Genesis was written (around 1500-1400 BC). But Hebrews was knowing Sumerians myths via the Canaans. There is a quite subtle side effect here. Any modern reader reading the story of Ninhurshag and Enki will see it through the Bible's Eden lens.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The myth of Ninhursaga and Enki is a pure myth of creation. From the point of view of a society who need irrigation for surviving, as Egyptian by the way. You can compare with Indian myths (another river civilization, with lots of rain) or Mayan myths (a rain civilization with irrigation in mountains zone). Enki, the Sumerian God of water (he is the wise Ea in later Mesopotamia, and he is known as Ea as far as the Hittite) is depiticed having several time sex and children with various woman. The first being Ninhursaga, the Sumerian Mother Goddess (Call her Gaia in Greek myths, Xmucane in Mayan myth). They got a girl Ninsar the Sumerian goddess of vegetation). Enki seeing her has sex with her.One could see here incest in action which is obviously not the case. That is simply: When you pour water on ground, you have plants. When you pour water on plants they grow. This little game is going on a moment with Enki voraciously having sex with his own offspring (Ninurka, the mountain goddess), Ninimma (the goddess of female sexual energy) and finally Uttu, the destiny goddess not to be confounded with Utu the sun god, brother of Innana.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The first thing to see here is the all importance of Enki, creating gods over gods. As well as his strong sexual appetite. Part of the following up of this myth will resolve in a form of blame of Enki when he tries to (and factually does) mate with Uttu. You can especially takes a look at the approach Enki is using bringing a cucumber, and apple and some grapes (all more or then related to a form of sexual symbol). If you take by the way, a look at the Genesis version, the &quot;apple' is never mention, it is a &quot;fruit&quot;. Here you have an apple.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;This is where Ninhursaga will curses Enki, for eating his offspring with Uttu. What you have after that is your pretty typical rebirth myth. From the point of view of agricultural society rebirth is quite easy to understand: take a seed, put it in the ground and a new same plant will enventually rise. And that is why Ninhusaga is naked and places Enki under her vagina. Hope that is making sense.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;One thing to see is: Myths do not try to give you any form of moral, or lessons about behaviours. They teach us more elemental thing. Those old myths are also devoided of any form of psychology. What think Enki? What is the opinion of his daughters. There is no sense yet of authorship. Human being will need to wait for Homer for such things. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9323" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2246" RevisionGUID="c001695b-6218-48fe-8fe8-e3590f7f6cb1" CreationDate="2017-01-06T15:16:06.337" UserId="2774" Comment="added some details" Text="It is very hard to give you a good explanation here for those reasons:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Sumerians myths are old, very old, de facto they are (and will probably stay) the actual oldest writings made by human beings, which makes them hard to access.&#xD;&#xA; - Sumerians myths are difficult to read, I often (very) insist on that point. One has to see that human beings was learning to write. And it took time to see human beings fully mastering writing. Not that Sumerian writers was bad, they was not, they was just subtly bad.&#xD;&#xA; - Most myths come way too incomplete. Try to imagine watching the Empire Strikes Back in 3017, but when Darth Vader is approaching Luke, he says: Luke, I... and the movie stops there. That what are Sumerians myths. We are missing, the puns, jokes, reference, culture and sometimes part of the text.&#xD;&#xA; - The modern world is the heir of the monotheisms (Jews, Christians and Muslims). The proximity between this particular myth and the Genesis is quite stunning. Enough to guess the Genesis's root are something by there. Hebrews was never in contact with Sumerians. Sumerians was long history when the Genesis was written (around 1500-1400 BC). But Hebrews was knowing Sumerians myths via the Canaans. There is a quite subtle side effect here. Any modern reader reading the story of Ninhurshag and Enki will see it through the Bible's Eden lens.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The myth of Ninhursaga and Enki is a pure myth of creation. From the point of view of a society who need irrigation for surviving, as Egyptian by the way. You can compare with Indian myths (another river civilization, with lots of rain) or Mayan myths (a rain civilization with irrigation in mountains zone). Enki, the Sumerian God of water (he is the wise Ea in later Mesopotamia, and he is known as Ea as far as the Hittite) is depicted having several time sex and children with various woman. The first being Ninhursaga, the Sumerian Mother Goddess (Call her Gaia in Greek myths, Xmucane in Mayan myth). They got a girl Ninsar the Sumerian goddess of vegetation). Enki seeing her has sex with her.One could see here incest in action which is obviously not the case. That is simply: When you pour water on ground, you have plants. When you pour water on plants they grow. This little game is going on a moment with Enki voraciously having sex with his own offspring (Ninurka, the mountain goddess), Ninimma (the goddess of female sexual energy) and finally Uttu, the destiny goddess not to be confounded with Utu the sun god, brother of Innana.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The first thing to see here is the all importance of Enki, creating gods over gods. As well as his strong sexual appetite. Part of the following up of this myth will resolve in a form of blame of Enki when he tries to (and factually does) mate with Uttu. You can especially takes a look at the approach Enki is using bringing a cucumber, and apple and some grapes (all more or then related to a form of sexual symbol). If you take by the way, a look at the Genesis version, the &quot;apple' is never mention, it is a &quot;fruit&quot;. Here you have an apple. Try also to see here the simple form of the story: bring me an apple and we have sex! That is a porn movie story... &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;This is where Ninhursaga will curses Enki, for eating his offspring with Uttu. What you have after that is your pretty typical rebirth myth. From the point of view of agricultural society rebirth is quite easy to understand: take a seed, put it in the ground and a new same plant will enventually rise. And that is why Ninhusaga is naked and places Enki under her vagina. Hope that is making sense.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;One thing to see is: Myths do not try to give you any form of moral, or lessons about behaviours. They teach us more elemental thing. Those old myths are also devoided of any form of psychology. What think Enki? What is the opinion of his daughters. There is no sense yet of authorship. Human being will need to wait for Homer for such things. &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;You have also the &quot;epic journey&quot; of Enki which starts as a god obviously governed by his sexual energy and finish after a rebirth as a wise god (and will stay the Mesopotamian wise god for a long time). Note also that the Mother Goddess participate a lot in that elevation." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9324" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2246" RevisionGUID="6860cdc5-55d5-47c3-8952-18560c06b32a" CreationDate="2017-01-06T17:03:21.037" UserId="2774" Comment="add more explanations" Text="It is very hard to give you a good explanation here for those reasons:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Sumerians myths are old, very old, de facto they are (and will probably stay) the actual oldest writings made by human beings, which makes them hard to access.&#xD;&#xA; - Sumerians myths are difficult to read, I often (very) insist on that point. One has to see that human beings was learning to write. And it took time to see human beings fully mastering writing. Not that Sumerian writers was bad, they was not, they was just subtly bad.&#xD;&#xA; - Most myths come way too incomplete. Try to imagine watching the Empire Strikes Back in 3017, but when Darth Vader is approaching Luke, he says: Luke, I... and the movie stops there. That what are Sumerians myths. We are missing, the puns, jokes, reference, culture and sometimes part of the text.&#xD;&#xA; - The modern world is the heir of the monotheisms (Jews, Christians and Muslims). The proximity between this particular myth and the Genesis is quite stunning. Enough to guess the Genesis's root are something by there. Hebrews was never in contact with Sumerians. Sumerians was long history when the Genesis was written (around 1500-1400 BC). But Hebrews was knowing Sumerians myths via the Canaans. There is a quite subtle side effect here. Any modern reader reading the story of Ninhurshag and Enki will see it through the Bible's Eden lens.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The myth of Ninhursaga and Enki is a pure myth of creation. From the point of view of a society who need irrigation for surviving, as Egyptian by the way. You can compare with Indian myths (another river civilization, with lots of rain) or Mayan myths (a rain civilization with irrigation in mountains zone). Enki, the Sumerian God of water (he is the wise Ea in later Mesopotamia, and he is known as Ea as far as the Hittite) is depicted having several time sex and children with various women. The first being Ninhursaga, the Sumerian Mother Goddess (Call her Gaia in Greek myths, Xmucane in Mayan myth). They got a girl Ninsar the Sumerian goddess of vegetation). Enki seeing her has sex with her. One could see here incest in action which is obviously not the case. That is simply: When you pour water on ground, you have plants. When you pour water on plants they grow. This little game is going on a moment with Enki voraciously having sex with his own offspring (Ninurka, the mountain goddess), Ninimma (the goddess of female sexual energy) and finally Uttu, the destiny goddess not to be confounded with Utu the sun god, brother of Innana. I invite you to compare this section with the Genesis version which is basically quite near.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The first thing to see here is the all importance of Enki, creating gods after gods. As well as his strong sexual appetite. Part of the following up of this myth will resolve in a form of blame of Enki when he tries to (and factually does) mate with Uttu. You can especially takes a look at the approach Enki is using bringing a cucumber, and apple and some grapes (all more or then related to a form of sexual symbol). If you take by the way, a look at the Genesis version, the infamously renown &quot;apple&quot; is never mentioned, it is a &quot;fruit&quot;. Here you have an apple. Try also to see the simple form of the story: bring me an apple and we have sex! That is a porn movie story. A lot of myth would fall in a way or another in this pattern, but that says something anyway. &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;This is where Ninhursaga will curses Enki, for eating his offspring with Uttu. What you have after that is your pretty typical rebirth myth. From the point of view of agricultural society rebirth is quite easy to understand: take a seed, put it in the ground and a new same plant will eventually rise. And that is why Ninhusaga is naked and places Enki under her vagina. Hope that is making sense.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;One thing to see is: Myths do not try to give you any form of moral, or lessons about behaviours. They teach us more elemental things. Those old myths are also devoided of any form of psychology. What think Enki? What is the opinion of his daughters. There is no sense yet of authorship. Of psychology of characters. Human being will need to wait for Homer, some 2000 years, for such things. &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;You have also the &quot;epic journey&quot; of Enki which starts as a god obviously governed by his sexual energy and finish after a rebirth as a wise god (and will stay the Mesopotamian's wise god for a long time). Note also that the Mother Goddess participate a lot in that elevation.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;What you have here so is a story about the origin of a cursed status of the human nature. For his appetite (for sex, or knowledge, and more probably for not refraining his sexual appetite and overdoing) Ninhursaga curses Enki. Quite similar to the way Adam and Eve are roughly punished by God for being over zealous about the forbidden fruit. Role of an external element is emphasized via either a fox (Enki's story), or a snake (Eden's story). In both case this lead to an immortal god (a Sumerian dingir exactly) to lose his life an being reborn, or human beings to become mortals. Understanding the similitude is a great way to be aware of the fact we have a terrible lens over our eyes.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;One last point you can see there is the &quot;over doing it&quot; theme. Ninhursaga does not seem to react about the &quot;inconstancy&quot; of Enki until the moment he goes with Uttu. One of the subtext here is: it is not because you can do it, you should. Factually nothing stop or restraint Enki to keep going mating every female around him after this story, and considering who is Enki after we can bet he stopped (at least this story implies it). &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Some people love we talk about modern myth: In Star Wars the 2 fights between Luke and Darth Vader are reverse. In the Empire Strikes Back, Vader has the advantage and even if he is not trying to truly kill Luke he still beats him, and very seriously. Compare with Luke's attitude in the Return of the Jedi where he has the upper hand and does not even truly try to fight. When pushed by anger he unleashed it he completely obliterate Darth Vader. Which illustrates that: it is not because you can do it, that you should do it. If, undoubtedly, this is a full Christian thematic, a part of that knowledge and theme are way older." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9328" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2240" RevisionGUID="edf6e68b-3f47-4462-8e53-2b848be5a05d" CreationDate="2017-01-06T18:11:37.100" UserId="2892" Comment="tweaked the title to hopefully make it more palatable" Text="Is Diana Themyscira a real mythological figure? Was Atlantis real?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9331" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2248" RevisionGUID="189a70f5-9b00-4d56-aea0-56797df52ca0" CreationDate="2017-01-06T21:04:03.850" UserId="2892" Text="Baphomet is definitely associated with Satanism in that Anton LeVay adopted it as the insignia for his church.  Prior to that, I can't really say but it's a reasonable assumption that organizations such as the Catholic church would have considered Baphomet satanic.  (Check out [this thread](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1853/why-are-goats-associated-with-satan) for more info on that subject.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding the Templars, my understanding is that they were *accused* of worshiping the figure, but that the sources regarding this are not necessarily reliable.  Part of the problem is that a lot of myths arose around the history of the Templars, and these ideas are quite popular in the public imagination and taken to be true, even where there is not evidence.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is just a high-level, general answer, not intended to be definitive.  It's possible someone with more academic knowledge of [Hermeticism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeticism), devil worship and the Templars will be able to provide much more specific answers.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9332" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2248" RevisionGUID="4dc6d42e-d574-4ce6-91ed-2a89007500c0" CreationDate="2017-01-06T21:16:30.073" UserId="2892" Comment="elaborated and clarified " Text="Baphomet is definitely associated with Satanism in that Anton LeVay adopted it as the insignia for his church.  Prior to that, I can't really say, but it's a reasonable assumption that organizations such as the Catholic church would have considered Baphomet satanic.  (Check out [this thread](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1853/why-are-goats-associated-with-satan) for more info on that subject.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of the Templars, my understanding is that they were *accused* of worshiping the Baphomet, but that the sources regarding this are not necessarily reliable. (i.e. The Templars were dismantled for political reasons, so the evidence against them has to be regarded as suspect.) Part of the problem is that many myths have arisen about the Templars.  These ideas are quite popular in the public imagination and taken to be true even where there is a lack of definitive evidence or any evidence at all.  (For instance, modern conspiracy theorists are very fond of theories linking to the Templars, almost certainly due to their involvement with banking.  International Banking is a central focus of leading modern conspiracy theorists.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is just a high-level, general answer, not intended to be definitive.  It's possible someone with more academic knowledge of [Hermeticism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeticism), devil worship and the Templars will be able to provide much more specific answers.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9333" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="2122" RevisionGUID="436f8932-42f0-4a92-88ce-87d54b3efa87" CreationDate="2017-01-07T00:40:29.237" UserId="-1" Comment="37" />
  <row Id="9335" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2249" RevisionGUID="bf65ea1b-fc92-4d12-a55a-6a65e6c84c4d" CreationDate="2017-01-07T11:31:31.550" UserId="111" Text="Interestingly the first mention of Baphomet (that I can find, at least) seem to be in an occitan poem about the Crusades, attributed to Gavaudan (presumably written in 1195):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Profeta seran Gavaudas  &#xD;&#xA;Quel digz er faitz. E mortz als cas!  &#xD;&#xA;e Dieus et honratz e servitz  &#xD;&#xA;on Bafometz era gravitz (V, 64-6)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *(Gavaudan will be prophet in this: the words will become deeds. And death to the dogs! And God will be honoured and served where Baphomet was thanked.)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Extract from Catherine Léglu &quot;Moral and satirical poetry&quot; in [*The troubadours: an introduction*](https://books.google.de/books?id=Qd-wbGvEpSsC&amp;lpg=PA56&amp;ots=YADBaUmXNT&amp;dq=%22the%20later%20troubadours%22)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this extract, it is relatively clear that the word Bafometz was just an occitanisation of the name Mahomet. And it's probably what was meant when the templars were accused of worshiping 'bafometic icons'.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The modern representation of Baphomet, used by modern satanism, seems to originate from Éliphas Levi (1854) *'Dogme et Ritual de la Haute Magie'* ([Part II](https://archive.org/details/dogmeetrituelde01lvgoog)). Its representation is on the frontispiece of the book.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the following extract he identify it with the Devil:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;WE recur once more to that terrible number fifteen, symbolized in the Tarot by a monster throned&#xD;&#xA;upon an altar, mitred and horned, having a woman's breasts and the generative organs of a man – a&#xD;&#xA;chimera, a malformed sphinx, a synthesis of deformities. Below this figure we read a frank and&#xD;&#xA;simple inscription – THE DEVIL. Yes, we confront here that phantom of all terrors, the dragon of all&#xD;&#xA;theogonies, the Ahriman of the Persians, the Typhon of the Egyptians, the Python of the Greeks, the&#xD;&#xA;old serpent of the Hebrews, the fantastic monster, the nightmare, the Croquemitaine, the gargoyle,&#xD;&#xA;the great beast of the Middle Ages, and – worse than all these – **the Baphomet of the Templars**, the&#xD;&#xA;bearded idol of the alchemist, the obscene deity of Mendes, the goat of the Sabbath. The frontispiece&#xD;&#xA;to this “Ritual” reproduces the exact figure of the terrible emperor of night, with all his attributes and&#xD;&#xA;all his characters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And here is how he describes it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The goat which is represented in our frontispiece bears upon its forehead the Sign of the Pentagram&#xD;&#xA;with one point in the ascendant, which is sufficient to distinguish it as a symbol of the light.&#xD;&#xA;Moreover, the sign of occultism is made with both hands, pointing upward to the white moon of&#xD;&#xA;Chesed, and downward to the black moon of Geburah. This sign expresses the perfect concord&#xD;&#xA;between mercy and justice. One of the arms is feminine and the other masculine, as in the androgyne&#xD;&#xA;of Khunrath, those attributes we have combined with those of our goat, since they are one and the&#xD;&#xA;same symbol. The torch of intelligence burning between the horns is the magical light of universal&#xD;&#xA;equilibrium; it is also the type of the soul, exalted above matter, even while cleaving to matter, as the&#xD;&#xA;flame cleaves to the torch. The monstrous head of the animal expresses horror of sin, for which the&#xD;&#xA;material agent, alone responsible, must alone and for ever bear the penalty, because the soul is&#xD;&#xA;impassible in its nature and can suffer only by materializing. The caduceus, which, replaces the&#xD;&#xA;generative organ, represents eternal life; the scale-covered belly typifies water; the circle above it is&#xD;&#xA;the atmosphere, the feathers still higher up signify the volatile; lastly, humanity is depicted by the&#xD;&#xA;two breasts and the androgyne arms of this sphinx of the occult sciences. Behold the shadows of the&#xD;&#xA;infernal sanctuary dissipated! Behold the sphinx of mediaeval terrors unveiled and cast from his&#xD;&#xA;throne! Quomodo cedidisti, Lucifer!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both above translations I found in Karlson-Weimann (2013) [*The Baphomet: a discourse analysis of the symbol in three contexts*](http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:612805/FULLTEXT02.pdf)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9336" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2249" RevisionGUID="70e0c9ce-967b-4a91-8b0e-49c084e18e54" CreationDate="2017-01-07T11:39:47.907" UserId="111" Comment="added 72 characters in body" Text="Interestingly the first mention of Baphomet (that I can find, at least) seem to be in an occitan poem about the Crusades, attributed to Gavaudan (presumably written in 1195):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Profeta seran Gavaudas  &#xD;&#xA;Quel digz er faitz. E mortz als cas!  &#xD;&#xA;e Dieus et honratz e servitz  &#xD;&#xA;on Bafometz era gravitz (V, 64-6)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *(Gavaudan will be prophet in this: the words will become deeds. And death to the dogs! And God will be honoured and served where Baphomet was thanked.)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Extract from Catherine Léglu &quot;Moral and satirical poetry&quot; in [*The troubadours: an introduction*](https://books.google.de/books?id=Qd-wbGvEpSsC&amp;lpg=PA56&amp;ots=YADBaUmXNT&amp;dq=%22the%20later%20troubadours%22)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this extract, it is relatively clear that the word Bafometz was just an occitanisation of the name Mahomet. And it's probably what was meant when the templars were accused of worshiping 'bafometic icons'.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The modern representation of Baphomet, used by modern satanism, seems to originate from Éliphas Levi (1854) *'Dogme et Ritual de la Haute Magie'* ([Part II](https://archive.org/details/dogmeetrituelde01lvgoog)). Its representation is on the frontispiece of the book.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the following extract he identify it with the Devil:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;WE recur once more to that terrible number fifteen, symbolized in the Tarot by a monster throned upon an altar, mitred and horned, having a woman's breasts and the generative organs of a man – a chimera, a malformed sphinx, a synthesis of deformities. Below this figure we read a frank and simple inscription – THE DEVIL. Yes, we confront here that phantom of all terrors, the dragon of all theogonies, the Ahriman of the Persians, the Typhon of the Egyptians, the Python of the Greeks, the&#xD;&#xA;old serpent of the Hebrews, the fantastic monster, the nightmare, the Croquemitaine, the gargoyle, the great beast of the Middle Ages, and – worse than all these – **the Baphomet of the Templars**, the bearded idol of the alchemist, the obscene deity of Mendes, the goat of the Sabbath. The frontispiece to this “Ritual” reproduces the exact figure of the terrible emperor of night, with all his attributes and all his characters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And here is how he describes it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The goat which is represented in our frontispiece bears upon its forehead the Sign of the Pentagram with one point in the ascendant, which is sufficient to distinguish it as a symbol of the light. Moreover, the sign of occultism is made with both hands, pointing upward to the white moon of Chesed, and downward to the black moon of Geburah. This sign expresses the perfect concord between mercy and justice. One of the arms is feminine and the other masculine, as in the androgyne of Khunrath, those attributes we have combined with those of our goat, since they are one and the same symbol. The torch of intelligence burning between the horns is the magical light of universal equilibrium; it is also the type of the soul, exalted above matter, even while cleaving to matter, as the&#xD;&#xA;flame cleaves to the torch. The monstrous head of the animal expresses horror of sin, for which the material agent, alone responsible, must alone and for ever bear the penalty, because the soul is impassible in its nature and can suffer only by materializing. The caduceus, which, replaces the generative organ, represents eternal life; the scale-covered belly typifies water; the circle above it is the atmosphere, the feathers still higher up signify the volatile; lastly, humanity is depicted by the&#xD;&#xA;two breasts and the androgyne arms of this sphinx of the occult sciences. Behold the shadows of the infernal sanctuary dissipated! Behold the  sphinx of mediaeval terrors unveiled and cast from his throne!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both above translations I found in Karlson-Weimann (2013) [*The Baphomet: a discourse analysis of the symbol in three contexts*](http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:612805/FULLTEXT02.pdf). What were the sources of Eliphas Levi's description however is unclear." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9337" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2249" RevisionGUID="504a1d63-a695-4548-b03b-cf03359f5bd4" CreationDate="2017-01-07T11:48:15.430" UserId="111" Comment="added 76 characters in body" Text="Interestingly the first mention of Baphomet (that I can find, at least) seem to be in an occitan poem about the Crusades, attributed to Gavaudan (presumably written in 1195):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Profeta seran Gavaudas  &#xD;&#xA;Quel digz er faitz. E mortz als cas!  &#xD;&#xA;e Dieus et honratz e servitz  &#xD;&#xA;on Bafometz era gravitz (V, 64-6)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *(Gavaudan will be prophet in this: the words will become deeds. And death to the dogs! And God will be honoured and served where Baphomet was thanked.)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Extract from Catherine Léglu &quot;Moral and satirical poetry&quot; in [*The troubadours: an introduction*](https://books.google.de/books?id=Qd-wbGvEpSsC&amp;lpg=PA56&amp;ots=YADBaUmXNT&amp;dq=%22the%20later%20troubadours%22)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this extract, it is relatively clear that the word Bafometz was just an occitanisation of the name Mahomet. And it's probably what was meant when the templars were accused of worshiping 'bafometic icons' (which was therefore a preposterous accusation but that's another question).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The modern representation of Baphomet, used by modern satanism, seems to originate from Éliphas Levi (1854) *'Dogme et Ritual de la Haute Magie'* ([Part II](https://archive.org/details/dogmeetrituelde01lvgoog)). Its representation is on the frontispiece of the book.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the following extract he identify it with the Devil:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;WE recur once more to that terrible number fifteen, symbolized in the Tarot by a monster throned upon an altar, mitred and horned, having a woman's breasts and the generative organs of a man – a chimera, a malformed sphinx, a synthesis of deformities. Below this figure we read a frank and simple inscription – THE DEVIL. Yes, we confront here that phantom of all terrors, the dragon of all theogonies, the Ahriman of the Persians, the Typhon of the Egyptians, the Python of the Greeks, the&#xD;&#xA;old serpent of the Hebrews, the fantastic monster, the nightmare, the Croquemitaine, the gargoyle, the great beast of the Middle Ages, and – worse than all these – **the Baphomet of the Templars**, the bearded idol of the alchemist, the obscene deity of Mendes, the goat of the Sabbath. The frontispiece to this “Ritual” reproduces the exact figure of the terrible emperor of night, with all his attributes and all his characters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And here is how he describes it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The goat which is represented in our frontispiece bears upon its forehead the Sign of the Pentagram with one point in the ascendant, which is sufficient to distinguish it as a symbol of the light. Moreover, the sign of occultism is made with both hands, pointing upward to the white moon of Chesed, and downward to the black moon of Geburah. This sign expresses the perfect concord between mercy and justice. One of the arms is feminine and the other masculine, as in the androgyne of Khunrath, those attributes we have combined with those of our goat, since they are one and the same symbol. The torch of intelligence burning between the horns is the magical light of universal equilibrium; it is also the type of the soul, exalted above matter, even while cleaving to matter, as the&#xD;&#xA;flame cleaves to the torch. The monstrous head of the animal expresses horror of sin, for which the material agent, alone responsible, must alone and for ever bear the penalty, because the soul is impassible in its nature and can suffer only by materializing. The caduceus, which, replaces the generative organ, represents eternal life; the scale-covered belly typifies water; the circle above it is the atmosphere, the feathers still higher up signify the volatile; lastly, humanity is depicted by the&#xD;&#xA;two breasts and the androgyne arms of this sphinx of the occult sciences. Behold the shadows of the infernal sanctuary dissipated! Behold the  sphinx of mediaeval terrors unveiled and cast from his throne!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both above translations I found in Karlson-Weimann (2013) [*The Baphomet: a discourse analysis of the symbol in three contexts*](http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:612805/FULLTEXT02.pdf). What were the sources of Eliphas Levi's description however is unclear." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9338" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2249" RevisionGUID="eafc924a-c895-4ab6-8b6d-ac3c82a5f546" CreationDate="2017-01-07T11:56:52.127" UserId="111" Comment="added 132 characters in body" Text="Interestingly the first mention of Baphomet (that I can find, at least) seem to be in an occitan poem about the Crusades, attributed to Gavaudan (presumably written in 1195):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Profeta seran Gavaudas  &#xD;&#xA;Quel digz er faitz. E mortz als cas!  &#xD;&#xA;e Dieus et honratz e servitz  &#xD;&#xA;on Bafometz era gravitz (V, 64-6)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *(Gavaudan will be prophet in this: the words will become deeds. And death to the dogs! And God will be honoured and served where Baphomet was thanked.)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Extract from Catherine Léglu &quot;Moral and satirical poetry&quot; in [*The troubadours: an introduction*](https://books.google.de/books?id=Qd-wbGvEpSsC&amp;lpg=PA56&amp;ots=YADBaUmXNT&amp;dq=%22the%20later%20troubadours%22)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this extract, it is relatively clear that the word Bafometz was just an occitanisation of the name Mahomet. And it's probably what was meant when the templars were accused of worshiping 'bafometic icons' (which was therefore a preposterous accusation but that's another question). After that, it just remained in the collection imagination the idea that templars were worshiping an heretic figure called Baphomet.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The modern representation of Baphomet, used by modern satanism, seems to originate from Éliphas Levi (1854) *'Dogme et Ritual de la Haute Magie'* ([Part II](https://archive.org/details/dogmeetrituelde01lvgoog)). Its representation is on the frontispiece of the book.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the following extract he identify it with the Devil:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;WE recur once more to that terrible number fifteen, symbolized in the Tarot by a monster throned upon an altar, mitred and horned, having a woman's breasts and the generative organs of a man – a chimera, a malformed sphinx, a synthesis of deformities. Below this figure we read a frank and simple inscription – THE DEVIL. Yes, we confront here that phantom of all terrors, the dragon of all theogonies, the Ahriman of the Persians, the Typhon of the Egyptians, the Python of the Greeks, the&#xD;&#xA;old serpent of the Hebrews, the fantastic monster, the nightmare, the Croquemitaine, the gargoyle, the great beast of the Middle Ages, and – worse than all these – **the Baphomet of the Templars**, the bearded idol of the alchemist, the obscene deity of Mendes, the goat of the Sabbath. The frontispiece to this “Ritual” reproduces the exact figure of the terrible emperor of night, with all his attributes and all his characters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And here is how he describes it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The goat which is represented in our frontispiece bears upon its forehead the Sign of the Pentagram with one point in the ascendant, which is sufficient to distinguish it as a symbol of the light. Moreover, the sign of occultism is made with both hands, pointing upward to the white moon of Chesed, and downward to the black moon of Geburah. This sign expresses the perfect concord between mercy and justice. One of the arms is feminine and the other masculine, as in the androgyne of Khunrath, those attributes we have combined with those of our goat, since they are one and the same symbol. The torch of intelligence burning between the horns is the magical light of universal equilibrium; it is also the type of the soul, exalted above matter, even while cleaving to matter, as the&#xD;&#xA;flame cleaves to the torch. The monstrous head of the animal expresses horror of sin, for which the material agent, alone responsible, must alone and for ever bear the penalty, because the soul is impassible in its nature and can suffer only by materializing. The caduceus, which, replaces the generative organ, represents eternal life; the scale-covered belly typifies water; the circle above it is the atmosphere, the feathers still higher up signify the volatile; lastly, humanity is depicted by the&#xD;&#xA;two breasts and the androgyne arms of this sphinx of the occult sciences. Behold the shadows of the infernal sanctuary dissipated! Behold the  sphinx of mediaeval terrors unveiled and cast from his throne!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both above translations I found in Karlson-Weimann (2013) [*The Baphomet: a discourse analysis of the symbol in three contexts*](http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:612805/FULLTEXT02.pdf). What were the sources of Eliphas Levi's description however is unclear." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9339" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2249" RevisionGUID="587a665c-893b-4e2e-b3a3-1441fa7313b7" CreationDate="2017-01-07T12:51:34.877" UserId="111" Comment="deleted 8 characters in body" Text="Interestingly the first mention of Baphomet (that I can find, at least) seem to be in an occitan poem about the Crusades, attributed to Gavaudan (presumably written in 1195):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Profeta seran Gavaudas  &#xD;&#xA;Quel digz er faitz. E mortz als cas!  &#xD;&#xA;e Dieus et honratz e servitz  &#xD;&#xA;on Bafometz era gravitz (V, 64-6)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *(Gavaudan will be prophet in this: the words will become deeds. And death to the dogs! And God will be honoured and served where Baphomet was thanked.)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Extract from Catherine Léglu &quot;Moral and satirical poetry&quot; in [*The troubadours: an introduction*](https://books.google.de/books?id=Qd-wbGvEpSsC&amp;lpg=PA56&amp;ots=YADBaUmXNT&amp;dq=%22the%20later%20troubadours%22)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this extract, it is relatively clear that the word Bafometz was just an occitanisation of the name Mahomet. And it's probably what was meant when the templars were accused of worshiping 'bafometic icons' (which was therefore a preposterous accusation but that's another question). After that, the idea that templars were worshiping an heretic figure called Baphomet remained in the collective imagination.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The modern representation of Baphomet, used by modern satanism, seems to originate from Éliphas Levi (1854) *'Dogme et Ritual de la Haute Magie'* ([Part II](https://archive.org/details/dogmeetrituelde01lvgoog)). Its representation is on the frontispiece of the book.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the following extract he identify it with the Devil:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;WE recur once more to that terrible number fifteen, symbolized in the Tarot by a monster throned upon an altar, mitred and horned, having a woman's breasts and the generative organs of a man – a chimera, a malformed sphinx, a synthesis of deformities. Below this figure we read a frank and simple inscription – THE DEVIL. Yes, we confront here that phantom of all terrors, the dragon of all theogonies, the Ahriman of the Persians, the Typhon of the Egyptians, the Python of the Greeks, the&#xD;&#xA;old serpent of the Hebrews, the fantastic monster, the nightmare, the Croquemitaine, the gargoyle, the great beast of the Middle Ages, and – worse than all these – **the Baphomet of the Templars**, the bearded idol of the alchemist, the obscene deity of Mendes, the goat of the Sabbath. The frontispiece to this “Ritual” reproduces the exact figure of the terrible emperor of night, with all his attributes and all his characters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And here is how he describes it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The goat which is represented in our frontispiece bears upon its forehead the Sign of the Pentagram with one point in the ascendant, which is sufficient to distinguish it as a symbol of the light. Moreover, the sign of occultism is made with both hands, pointing upward to the white moon of Chesed, and downward to the black moon of Geburah. This sign expresses the perfect concord between mercy and justice. One of the arms is feminine and the other masculine, as in the androgyne of Khunrath, those attributes we have combined with those of our goat, since they are one and the same symbol. The torch of intelligence burning between the horns is the magical light of universal equilibrium; it is also the type of the soul, exalted above matter, even while cleaving to matter, as the&#xD;&#xA;flame cleaves to the torch. The monstrous head of the animal expresses horror of sin, for which the material agent, alone responsible, must alone and for ever bear the penalty, because the soul is impassible in its nature and can suffer only by materializing. The caduceus, which, replaces the generative organ, represents eternal life; the scale-covered belly typifies water; the circle above it is the atmosphere, the feathers still higher up signify the volatile; lastly, humanity is depicted by the&#xD;&#xA;two breasts and the androgyne arms of this sphinx of the occult sciences. Behold the shadows of the infernal sanctuary dissipated! Behold the  sphinx of mediaeval terrors unveiled and cast from his throne!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both above translations I found in Karlson-Weimann (2013) [*The Baphomet: a discourse analysis of the symbol in three contexts*](http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:612805/FULLTEXT02.pdf). What were the sources of Eliphas Levi's description however is unclear." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9340" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2249" RevisionGUID="eaa6e997-4897-4013-9062-43fc4ece9029" CreationDate="2017-01-07T13:17:02.077" UserId="111" Comment="added 9 characters in body" Text="Interestingly the first mention of Baphomet (that I can find, at least) seem to be in an occitan poem about the Crusades, attributed to Gavaudan (presumably written in 1195):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Profeta seran Gavaudas  &#xD;&#xA;Quel digz er faitz. E mortz als cas!  &#xD;&#xA;e Dieus et honratz e servitz  &#xD;&#xA;on Bafometz era gravitz (V, 64-6)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *(Gavaudan will be prophet in this: the words will become deeds. And death to the dogs! And God will be honoured and served where Baphomet was thanked.)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Extract from Catherine Léglu &quot;Moral and satirical poetry&quot; in [*The troubadours: an introduction*](https://books.google.de/books?id=Qd-wbGvEpSsC&amp;lpg=PA56&amp;ots=YADBaUmXNT&amp;dq=%22the%20later%20troubadours%22)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this extract, it is relatively clear that the word Bafometz was just an occitanisation of the name Mahomet. And it's probably what was meant when the templars were accused of worshiping 'bafometic icons' (which was therefore a preposterous accusation but that's another question). After that, the idea that templars were worshiping an heretic figure called Baphomet probably remained in the collective imagination.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The modern representation of Baphomet, used by modern satanism, seems to originate from Éliphas Levi (1854) *'Dogme et Ritual de la Haute Magie'* ([Part II](https://archive.org/details/dogmeetrituelde01lvgoog)). Its representation is on the frontispiece of the book.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the following extract he identify it with the Devil:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;WE recur once more to that terrible number fifteen, symbolized in the Tarot by a monster throned upon an altar, mitred and horned, having a woman's breasts and the generative organs of a man – a chimera, a malformed sphinx, a synthesis of deformities. Below this figure we read a frank and simple inscription – THE DEVIL. Yes, we confront here that phantom of all terrors, the dragon of all theogonies, the Ahriman of the Persians, the Typhon of the Egyptians, the Python of the Greeks, the&#xD;&#xA;old serpent of the Hebrews, the fantastic monster, the nightmare, the Croquemitaine, the gargoyle, the great beast of the Middle Ages, and – worse than all these – **the Baphomet of the Templars**, the bearded idol of the alchemist, the obscene deity of Mendes, the goat of the Sabbath. The frontispiece to this “Ritual” reproduces the exact figure of the terrible emperor of night, with all his attributes and all his characters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And here is how he describes it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The goat which is represented in our frontispiece bears upon its forehead the Sign of the Pentagram with one point in the ascendant, which is sufficient to distinguish it as a symbol of the light. Moreover, the sign of occultism is made with both hands, pointing upward to the white moon of Chesed, and downward to the black moon of Geburah. This sign expresses the perfect concord between mercy and justice. One of the arms is feminine and the other masculine, as in the androgyne of Khunrath, those attributes we have combined with those of our goat, since they are one and the same symbol. The torch of intelligence burning between the horns is the magical light of universal equilibrium; it is also the type of the soul, exalted above matter, even while cleaving to matter, as the&#xD;&#xA;flame cleaves to the torch. The monstrous head of the animal expresses horror of sin, for which the material agent, alone responsible, must alone and for ever bear the penalty, because the soul is impassible in its nature and can suffer only by materializing. The caduceus, which, replaces the generative organ, represents eternal life; the scale-covered belly typifies water; the circle above it is the atmosphere, the feathers still higher up signify the volatile; lastly, humanity is depicted by the&#xD;&#xA;two breasts and the androgyne arms of this sphinx of the occult sciences. Behold the shadows of the infernal sanctuary dissipated! Behold the  sphinx of mediaeval terrors unveiled and cast from his throne!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both above translations I found in Karlson-Weimann (2013) [*The Baphomet: a discourse analysis of the symbol in three contexts*](http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:612805/FULLTEXT02.pdf). What were the sources of Eliphas Levi's description however is unclear." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9341" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2240" RevisionGUID="e9f3975f-a58e-4f9a-afbf-d347c522c25f" CreationDate="2017-01-07T19:27:16.103" UserId="2892" Comment="Reduced the title question to a single subject, but left the Atlantis followup in the body text, as it is related and can be addressed with more clarity than the existing Atlantis question in relation to this subject" Text="Does anyone have any real proof not from comics or movies that Diana Themyscira is an actual figure from mythology?  If so, is Atlantis an actual mythological location?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9342" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2240" RevisionGUID="e9f3975f-a58e-4f9a-afbf-d347c522c25f" CreationDate="2017-01-07T19:27:16.103" UserId="2892" Comment="Reduced the title question to a single subject, but left the Atlantis followup in the body text, as it is related and can be addressed with more clarity than the existing Atlantis question in relation to this subject" Text="Is Diana Themyscira a real mythological figure?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9343" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2242" RevisionGUID="f158f7d1-fea8-4204-b6ab-de047f6d4606" CreationDate="2017-01-07T19:50:00.240" UserId="2892" Comment="Expanded the answer to include discussion of the name Diana, Themiscyra, and explained the Thera/Atlantis theory." Text="I'll start out by noting that Amazons come from Greek mythology but the character known as Wonder Woman is a modern invention, inspired by, but not present in the Classical canon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first clue is her name, Diana.  Diana was the Roman name for the Greek goddess Artemis, famous for her archery skills.  **Key point: Diana is not a Greek name.**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Wikipedia has a very comprehensive list of actual names of Amazon warriors](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazons#Lists) from mythology. You'll see names like Deianeira and Dioxippe, but not Diana.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although Wonder Woman is a modern invention, the legends of the [Amazons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazons) do derive from actual Greek mythology.  The most famous Amazons are surely [Penthesilea](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penthesilea) and her sister, [Hippolyta](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippolyta_(DC_Comics)), who took [Theseus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theseus) as her husband. (As a Wonder Woman fan, you will know that her mother is named for this actual, mythological figure.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Themiscyra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Themiscyra_(Pontus)) does feature in the ancient Greek histories as a legendary town of the Amazons as early as the 5th century BCE.  (The Greek histories are entwined with the mythological canon in that the mythical origins of places are often discussed.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding [Atlantis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantis), it also dates from the Classical period, although it is not a location of mythological stories per se, but first appears in [Plato](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_(Plato)) as part of an allegory on national [hubris](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**There is no evidence that Atlantis was anything other than an invention of Plato**, although many have speculated to the contrary. For instance, the island of [Thera](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santorini) is often put forth as an actual location.  Thera was famously subject to [a massive volcanic eruption](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_eruption) and subsequent submersion of most of the island under the sea.  It's also worth noting that Minoan civilization was a pre-cursor of Greek civilization--an advanced culture based on an island dominating the region--so the idea of an Atlantis may also be related to the impact of Minoan hegemony in the ancient Greek cultural consciousness." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9349" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2240" RevisionGUID="11d755af-5a8a-4d2c-a342-1fd4c3f2fece" CreationDate="2017-01-07T20:40:01.380" UserId="2892" Comment="Updated the question to specify &quot;is Atlantis an actual location in mythology&quot; and explain about the Wonder Woman parallels with Themyscira." Text="Does anyone have any real proof not from comics or movies that Diana Themyscira is an actual figure from mythology?  If so, is Atlantis an actual location in mythology? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;______________&#xD;&#xA;For background, [Diana of Themyscira](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonder_Woman) is name of the modern superhero, Wonder Woman.  In the comic books, [Themyscira](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Themyscira_(DC_Comics)) is the capital of the Amazons, and depicted as a mysterious island with a hidden location, similar to Atlantis.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9350" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2240" RevisionGUID="11d755af-5a8a-4d2c-a342-1fd4c3f2fece" CreationDate="2017-01-07T20:40:01.380" UserId="2892" Comment="Updated the question to specify &quot;is Atlantis an actual location in mythology&quot; and explain about the Wonder Woman parallels with Themyscira." Text="Is Diana of Themyscira a real mythological figure?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9351" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2242" RevisionGUID="7b28dfa3-8c51-49d8-9917-eed5c8cc023e" CreationDate="2017-01-07T20:47:44.420" UserId="2892" Comment="Added a specific answer on Atlantis and explained how the mythology of Atlantis is distinct from the formal, Classical canon." Text="I'll start out by noting that Amazons come from Greek mythology but the character known as Wonder Woman is a modern invention, inspired by, but not present in the Classical canon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first clue is her name, Diana.  Diana was the Roman name for the Greek goddess Artemis, famous for her archery skills.  **Key point: Diana is not a Greek name.**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Wikipedia has a very comprehensive list of actual names of Amazon warriors](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazons#Lists) from mythology. You'll see names like Deianeira and Dioxippe, but not Diana.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although Wonder Woman is a modern invention, the legends of the [Amazons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazons) do derive from actual Greek mythology.  The most famous Amazons are surely [Penthesilea](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penthesilea) and her sister, [Hippolyta](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippolyta_(DC_Comics)), who took [Theseus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theseus) as her husband. (As a Wonder Woman fan, you will know that her mother is named for this actual, mythological figure.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Themiscyra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Themiscyra_(Pontus)) does feature in the ancient Greek histories as a legendary town of the Amazons as early as the 5th century BCE.  (The Greek histories are entwined with the mythological canon in that the mythical origins of places are often discussed.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding [Atlantis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantis), it also dates from the Classical period, although it is not a location of mythological stories per se, but first appears in [Plato](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_(Plato)) as part of an allegory on national [hubris](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no evidence that Atlantis was anything other than an invention of Plato, although many have speculated to the contrary. For instance, the island of [Thera](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santorini) is often put forth as an actual location.  Thera was famously subject to [a massive volcanic eruption](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_eruption) and subsequent submersion of most of the island under the sea.  It's also worth noting that Minoan civilization was a pre-cursor of Greek civilization--an advanced culture based on an island dominating the region--so the idea of an Atlantis may also be related to the impact of Minoan hegemony in the ancient Greek cultural consciousness.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, **no, Atlantis is not a location that figures in the formal canon of Classical Mythology, but has subsequently been widely mythologized.**" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9352" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2242" RevisionGUID="ffb0967d-b393-4903-9f16-826e4aca01bb" CreationDate="2017-01-07T21:25:07.167" UserId="2892" Comment="Added a point about Themiscyra in the greater canon, and the point of similarity with Atlantis in terms of mysterious location." Text="I'll start out by noting that Amazons come from Greek mythology but the character known as Wonder Woman is a modern invention, inspired by, but not present in the Classical canon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first clue is her name, Diana.  Diana was the Roman name for the Greek goddess Artemis, famous for her archery skills.  **Key point: Diana is not a Greek name.**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Wikipedia has a very comprehensive list of actual names of Amazon warriors](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazons#Lists) from mythology. You'll see names like Deianeira and Dioxippe, but not Diana.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although Wonder Woman is a modern invention, the legends of the [Amazons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazons) do derive from actual Greek mythology.  The most famous Amazons are surely [Penthesilea](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penthesilea) and her sister, [Hippolyta](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippolyta_(DC_Comics)), who took [Theseus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theseus) as her husband. (As a Wonder Woman fan, you will know that her mother is named for this actual, mythological figure.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Themiscyra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Themiscyra_(Pontus)) does feature in the ancient Greek histories as a legendary town of the Amazons as early as the 5th century BCE.  (The Greek histories are entwined with the mythological canon in that the mythical origins of places are often discussed.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Themiscyra is not associated with Atlantis in the greater Classical canon**, although there is a similarity in that Themiscyra's location is a subject of some dispute.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding [Atlantis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantis), it also dates from the Classical period, although it is not a location of mythological stories per se, but first appears in [Plato](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_(Plato)) as part of an allegory on national [hubris](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no evidence that Atlantis was anything other than an invention of Plato, although many have speculated to the contrary. For instance, the island of [Thera](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santorini) is often put forth as an actual location.  Thera was famously subject to [a massive volcanic eruption](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_eruption) and subsequent submersion of most of the island under the sea.  It's also worth noting that Minoan civilization was a pre-cursor of Greek civilization--an advanced culture based on an island dominating the region--so the idea of an Atlantis may also be related to the impact of Minoan hegemony in the ancient Greek cultural consciousness.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, **no, Atlantis is not a location that figures in the formal canon of Classical Mythology, but has subsequently been widely mythologized.**" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9355" PostHistoryTypeId="38" PostId="2248" RevisionGUID="6fdf2f09-b770-4a02-b05a-7173b0381a12" CreationDate="2017-01-07T22:07:48.560" UserId="183" Comment="from http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2210/is-baphomet-associated-with-satanism" />
  <row Id="9356" PostHistoryTypeId="38" PostId="2243" RevisionGUID="6fdf2f09-b770-4a02-b05a-7173b0381a12" CreationDate="2017-01-07T22:07:48.560" UserId="183" Comment="from http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2210/is-baphomet-associated-with-satanism" />
  <row Id="9358" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2240" RevisionGUID="3763eb3b-870a-4d51-83ae-ca36d8290129" CreationDate="2017-01-08T02:16:00.600" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="I edited out the atlantis question because it makes this question a duplicate of http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/1603/62. If you want to add it back in, make it distinct from the other atlantis question" Text="Does anyone have any real proof not from comics or movies that Diana Themyscira is an actual figure from mythology?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;______________&#xD;&#xA;For background, [Diana of Themyscira](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonder_Woman) is name of the modern superhero, Wonder Woman.  In the comic books, [Themyscira](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Themyscira_(DC_Comics)) is the capital of the Amazons, and depicted as a mysterious island with a hidden location, similar to Atlantis.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9359" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2250" RevisionGUID="95ca8f54-3a86-4686-8cd8-d11b80a595a9" CreationDate="2017-01-08T10:24:36.563" UserId="2708" Text="From [page 284 of volume 2, part 1 of the mentioned book][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Snippet from the book][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately, there's not a lot in there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A quick and rough translation (sorry in case I missed any unique English name used for these):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Iudaios** (Ioudaios), **1)** Son of Typhon, brother of Hierosolymos, after which the Jews are named, *Plut. Is. et Osir. **31.*** -- **2)** One of the Spartans, otherwise called Udaios (q. v.) and said to have given Judea its name (Steph. Byz. q. v. Ioudaia); q.v. *Meineke* spelling him Oudaios. [Höfer]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So I don't think he's actually supposed to be a god (based on this text). I couldn't find any real reference to &quot;Hierosolymos&quot;, but this might actually be &quot;Hierosolymus&quot; as well. Not that I'd have any more luck with that, but maybe this could help someone else who's more versed regarding Greek mythology. Also note that there's actually a [Wikipedia entry on the alternative spelling &quot;Ioudaios&quot;][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]:https://archive.org/stream/ausfhrlicheslexi21rosc#page/284/mode/2up&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/IhVMP.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioudaios" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9363" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2246" RevisionGUID="cacb5b77-6e7f-4a44-80fc-248e31595607" CreationDate="2017-01-08T17:19:16.910" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 32 characters in body" Text="It is very hard to give you a good explanation here for those reasons:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Sumerians myths are old, very old, de facto they are (and will probably stay) the actual oldest writings made by human beings, which makes them hard to access.&#xD;&#xA; - Sumerians myths are difficult to read, I often (very) insist on that point. One has to see that human beings was learning to write. And it took time to see human beings fully mastering writing. Not that Sumerian writers was bad, they was not, they was just subtly bad.&#xD;&#xA; - Most myths come way too incomplete. Try to imagine watching the Empire Strikes Back in 3017, but when Darth Vader is approaching Luke, he says: Luke, I... and the movie stops there. That what are Sumerians myths. We are missing, the puns, jokes, reference, culture and sometimes part of the text.&#xD;&#xA; - The modern world is the heir of the monotheisms (Jews, Christians and Muslims). The proximity between this particular myth and the Genesis is quite stunning. Enough to guess the Genesis's root are something by there. Hebrews was never in contact with Sumerians. Sumerians was long history when the Genesis was written (around 1500-1400 BC). But Hebrews was knowing Sumerians myths via the Canaans. There is a quite subtle side effect here. Any modern reader reading the story of Ninhurshag and Enki will see it through the Bible's Eden lens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The myth of Ninhursaga and Enki is a pure myth of creation. From the point of view of a society who need irrigation for surviving, as Egyptian by the way. You can compare with Indian myths (another river civilization, with lots of rain) or Mayan myths (a rain civilization with irrigation in mountains zone). Enki, the Sumerian God of water (he is the wise Ea in later Mesopotamia, and he is known as Ea as far as the Hittite) is depicted having several time sex and children with various women. The first being Ninhursaga, the Sumerian Mother Goddess (Call her Gaia in Greek myths, Xmucane in Mayan myth). They got a girl Ninsar the Sumerian goddess of vegetation). Enki seeing her has sex with her. One could see here incest in action which is obviously not the case. That is simply: When you pour water on ground, you have plants. When you pour water on plants they grow. This little game is going on a moment with Enki voraciously having sex with his own offspring (Ninurka, the mountain goddess), Ninimma (the goddess of female sexual energy) and finally Uttu, the destiny goddess not to be confounded with Utu the sun god, brother of Innana. I invite you to compare this section with the Genesis version which is basically quite near.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first thing to see here is the all importance of Enki, creating gods after gods. As well as his strong sexual appetite. Part of the following up of this myth will resolve in a form of blame of Enki when he tries to (and factually does) mate with Uttu. You can especially takes a look at the approach Enki is using bringing a cucumber, and apple and some grapes (all more or then related to a form of sexual symbol). If you take by the way, a look at the Genesis version, the infamously renown &quot;apple&quot; is never mentioned, it is a &quot;fruit&quot;. Here you have an apple. Try also to see the simple form of the story: bring me an apple and we have sex! That is a porn movie story. A lot of myth would fall in a way or another in this pattern, but that says something anyway.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is where Ninhursaga will curses Enki, for eating his offspring with Uttu. What you have after that is your pretty typical rebirth myth. From the point of view of agricultural society rebirth is quite easy to understand: take a seed, put it in the ground and a new same plant will eventually rise. And that is why Ninhusaga is naked and places Enki under her vagina. Hope that is making sense.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One thing to see is: Myths do not try to give you any form of moral, or lessons about behaviours. They teach us more elemental things. Those old myths are also devoided of any form of psychology. What think Enki? What is the opinion of his daughters. There is no sense yet of authorship. Of psychology of characters. Human being will need to wait for Homer, some 2000 years, for such things. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You have also the &quot;epic journey&quot; of Enki which starts as a god obviously governed by his sexual energy and finish after a rebirth as a wise god (and will stay the Mesopotamian's wise god for a long time). Note also that the Mother Goddess participate a lot in that elevation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What you have here so is a story about the origin of a cursed status of the human nature. For his appetite (for sex, or knowledge, and more probably for not refraining his sexual appetite and overdoing) Ninhursaga curses Enki. Quite similar to the way Adam and Eve are roughly punished by God for being over zealous about the forbidden fruit. Role of an external element is emphasized via either a fox (Enki's story), or a snake (Eden's story). In both case this lead to an immortal god (a Sumerian dingir exactly) to lose his life an being reborn, or human beings to become mortals. Understanding the similitude is a great way to be aware of the fact we have a terrible lens over our eyes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One last point you can see there is the &quot;over doing it&quot; theme. Ninhursaga does not seem to react about the &quot;inconstancy&quot; of Enki until the moment he goes with Uttu. One of the subtext here is: it is not because you can do it, you should. Factually nothing stop or restraint Enki to keep going mating every female around him after this story, and considering who is Enki after we can bet he stopped (at least this story implies it).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some people love we talk about modern myth: In Star Wars the 2 fights between Luke and Darth Vader are reverse. In the Empire Strikes Back, Vader has the advantage and even if he is not trying to truly kill Luke he still beats him, and very seriously. Compare with Luke's attitude in the Return of the Jedi where he has the upper hand and does not even truly try to fight. When pushed by anger he unleashed it he completely obliterate Darth Vader. Which illustrates that: it is not because you can do it, that you should do it. If, undoubtedly, this is a full Christian thematic, a part of that knowledge and theme are way older." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9365" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2243" RevisionGUID="de61f02f-b45a-44f6-b67e-6ad7f114eae4" CreationDate="2017-01-08T17:23:43.093" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|occultism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9366" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2243" RevisionGUID="998ea66a-5731-4906-bf2d-c322eeba6c78" CreationDate="2017-01-08T17:33:41.607" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 76 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="The [Knights Templar][1] were a Catholic military order. They were very wealthy and very skilled, but after the Holy Land was lost in the crusades, mistrust built on them and rumors started to spread about them. One of these rumors was that the order worshiped Baphomet:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The symbolic head of the goat of Mendes is occasionally given to this figure, and it is then the Baphomet of the Templars and the Word of the Gnostics, bizarre images which became scarecrows for the vulgar after affording food for reflection to sages – innocent hieroglyphs of thought and faith which have been a pretext for the rage of persecutions. How pitiable are men in their ignorance, but how they would despise themselves if only they came to know!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Dogma et Rituel de la Haute Magie (translated)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Satanism, on the other hand, is the belief that Satan, or any form of the devil, is the main force. So it appears the Baphomet is associated with both the Knights Templar and [Satanism][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which association of Baphomet came first?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1853/why-are-goats-associated-with-satan" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9367" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2243" RevisionGUID="998ea66a-5731-4906-bf2d-c322eeba6c78" CreationDate="2017-01-08T17:33:41.607" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 76 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Is Baphomet more closely associated with Satanism or the Templars?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9368" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2243" RevisionGUID="998ea66a-5731-4906-bf2d-c322eeba6c78" CreationDate="2017-01-08T17:33:41.607" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 76 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9369" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2205" RevisionGUID="432ba610-d67a-46c1-9cde-1061ab824344" CreationDate="2017-01-08T17:52:33.557" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mythohistory|source-request|occultism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9370" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2243" RevisionGUID="c80fb677-b742-4bb0-986c-b6bbcf21c459" CreationDate="2017-01-08T17:52:52.233" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|occultism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9371" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2251" RevisionGUID="0088c7e9-e8fb-4d06-9d50-9fa76804dbca" CreationDate="2017-01-08T18:42:01.173" UserId="3336" Text="I have a essay to do on the Pandora's Box, but I get confused on which is the good and which is the evil. But I have the story where Hope also gets into the world, so its a little different." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9372" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2251" RevisionGUID="0088c7e9-e8fb-4d06-9d50-9fa76804dbca" CreationDate="2017-01-08T18:42:01.173" UserId="3336" Text="What is the good and the evil in the Pandora's Box story?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9373" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2251" RevisionGUID="0088c7e9-e8fb-4d06-9d50-9fa76804dbca" CreationDate="2017-01-08T18:42:01.173" UserId="3336" Text="|pandora|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9375" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2251" RevisionGUID="45fd169c-0f24-4725-812f-0b5b9b717cd3" CreationDate="2017-01-08T20:20:45.007" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|pandora|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9376" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2252" RevisionGUID="6b969027-70dd-46af-9f4b-8a8cd4b70ded" CreationDate="2017-01-08T21:47:45.843" UserId="57" Text="Völsung's mother, despite giving birth to the clan's namesake in a [rather bizarre manner][1], is never named in the Völsunga saga.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is her name mentioned anywhere else in the Völsung cycle? Do we know anything about her, other than being Rerir's wife and Völsung's mother?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/2216/57" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9377" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2252" RevisionGUID="6b969027-70dd-46af-9f4b-8a8cd4b70ded" CreationDate="2017-01-08T21:47:45.843" UserId="57" Text="Who is Völsung's mother?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9378" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2252" RevisionGUID="6b969027-70dd-46af-9f4b-8a8cd4b70ded" CreationDate="2017-01-08T21:47:45.843" UserId="57" Text="|norse|volsunga|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9379" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2253" RevisionGUID="e041664f-504b-431c-b0db-d8b12944771d" CreationDate="2017-01-09T08:03:52.133" UserDisplayName="user3198" Text="I keep seeing a girl with the head of a wolf, with red eyes, and long hair.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As I'm a very impressionable person I probably saw an image in a mythology book, or a movie, and I can't get her out of my head, so now when I'm in a dark room I see this shit; it's not a cute kind of girl, it's a scary monster in the dark kind of girl.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question is: Is there such a creature in any mythology? (this creature could be a part of a pack, or something, as I think I see an adult version of this as well)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9380" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2253" RevisionGUID="e041664f-504b-431c-b0db-d8b12944771d" CreationDate="2017-01-09T08:03:52.133" UserDisplayName="user3198" Text="any little girls with the head of a wolf?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9381" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2253" RevisionGUID="e041664f-504b-431c-b0db-d8b12944771d" CreationDate="2017-01-09T08:03:52.133" UserDisplayName="user3198" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9382" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2254" RevisionGUID="7aebd3f8-43c6-4622-a257-0db4156c1674" CreationDate="2017-01-09T08:53:22.493" UserId="2762" Text="Tracking down which creature you saw might be difficult - humans with canine heads is surprisingly common in mythology, though often described as a dog head rather than a wolf.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From ancient Cynocephali tribes (http://www.theoi.com/Phylos/Kunokephaloi.html)  whose name literally means dog-head in ancient greek, to relatively recent urban legends (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_Dogman),&#xD;&#xA;from the friendly Scottish wulver (http://www.scotclans.com/the-scottish-wulver-the-kindly-werewolf/) to the less friendly islanders described by Marco Polo (https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Travels_of_Marco_Polo/Book_3/Chapter_13)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I couldn't find references to little girls specifically, but in terms of women there's the Telkhines (http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Telkhines.html) but since I struggled to find any art, I doubt that's what you're looking for. If you are able to remember where you saw it we might be able to help more." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9386" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2255" RevisionGUID="e50c89f4-d7eb-4729-a69e-61606c11c83f" CreationDate="2017-01-09T12:49:12.547" UserId="57" Text="In chapter 8 of the Saga of the Völsungs, Sigmund (in wolf form) attacks and almost kills his son Sinfjotli (also in wolf form). Sinfjotli is only saved when Sigmund is pointed to a miraculous herb by a couple of weasels and a raven:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Sigmund rushed at him so hard that he staggered and fell, and Sigmund bit him in the throat. Now that day they might not come out of their wolf-skins: but Sigmund lays the other on his back, and bears him home to the house, and cursed the wolf-gears and gave them to the trolls. Now on a day he saw where two weasels went and how that one bit the other in the throat, and then ran straightway into the thicket, and took up a leaf and laid in on the wound, and thereon his fellow sprang up quite and clean whole; so Sigmund went out and saw a raven flying with a blade of that same herb to him; so he took it and drew it over Sinfjotli's hurt, and he straightway sprang up as whole as though he had never been hurt. There after they went home to their earth-house, and abode there till the time came for them to put off the wolf-shapes; then they burnt them up with fire, and prayed that no more hurt might come to any one from them; but in that uncouth guise they wrought many famous deeds in the kingdom and lordship of King Siggeir.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Story of the Volsungs, translated by William Morris and Eirikr Magnusson&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it Odin - who is commonly associated with ravens - that intervenes and heals Sinfjotli? If so, why? Wouldn't Sinfjotli make it into Valhalla, had he died as a wolf? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9387" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2255" RevisionGUID="e50c89f4-d7eb-4729-a69e-61606c11c83f" CreationDate="2017-01-09T12:49:12.547" UserId="57" Text="Did Odin heal Sinfjotli?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9388" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2255" RevisionGUID="e50c89f4-d7eb-4729-a69e-61606c11c83f" CreationDate="2017-01-09T12:49:12.547" UserId="57" Text="|odin|volsunga|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9389" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2253" RevisionGUID="be4e01cb-2650-4b3d-b1e0-20822c0d373b" CreationDate="2017-01-09T12:53:38.383" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved grammar and spelling in body and title." Text="I keep seeing a girl with the head of a wolf, with red eyes, and long hair.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As I'm a very impressionable person I probably saw an image in a mythology boo, or a movie, and I can't get this girl out of my head, so now when I'm in a dark room I see this image. It's not a cute kind of girl, it's a scary monster in the dark kind of girl.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question is: Is there such a creature in any mythology? (This creature could be a part of a pack, or something, as I think I have seen an adult version of this as well)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9390" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2253" RevisionGUID="be4e01cb-2650-4b3d-b1e0-20822c0d373b" CreationDate="2017-01-09T12:53:38.383" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved grammar and spelling in body and title." Text="Are there any myths of little girls with the head of a wolf?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9391" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2253" RevisionGUID="be4e01cb-2650-4b3d-b1e0-20822c0d373b" CreationDate="2017-01-09T12:53:38.383" Comment="Proposed by 1241 approved by -1 edit id of 416" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9392" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2253" RevisionGUID="58299b0e-80d7-4e6d-9dca-4a0333c06d93" CreationDate="2017-01-09T12:53:38.383" UserId="57" Comment="Improved grammar and spelling in body and title." Text="I keep seeing a girl with the head of a wolf, with red eyes, and long hair.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As I'm a very impressionable person I probably saw an image in a mythology book, or a movie, and I can't get this girl out of my head, so now when I'm in a dark room I see this image. It's not a cute kind of girl, it's a scary monster in the dark kind of girl.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there such a creature in any mythology? This creature could be a part of a pack, or something, as I think I have seen an adult version of this as well." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9393" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2254" RevisionGUID="954c8897-fc1f-4b3b-aaa5-f095b7b2e6bc" CreationDate="2017-01-09T12:53:55.550" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved formatting." Text="Tracking down which creature you saw might be difficult - humans with canine heads is surprisingly common in mythology, though often described as a dog head rather than a wolf.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From ancient Cynocephali tribes ([THE KYNOKEPHALOI](http://www.theoi.com/Phylos/Kunokephaloi.html))  whose name literally means dog-head in ancient greek, to relatively recent urban legends ([Michigan Dogman (Wikipedia)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_Dogman)),&#xD;&#xA;from the friendly [Scottish wulver](http://www.scotclans.com/the-scottish-wulver-the-kindly-werewolf/) to the less friendly islanders described by Marco Polo: ([The Travels of Marco Polo/Book 3/Chapter 13](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Travels_of_Marco_Polo/Book_3/Chapter_13)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I couldn't find references to little girls specifically, but in terms of women there's the [Telkhines](http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Telkhines.html) but since I struggled to find any art, I doubt that's what you're looking for. If you are able to remember where you saw it we might be able to help more." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9394" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2254" RevisionGUID="954c8897-fc1f-4b3b-aaa5-f095b7b2e6bc" CreationDate="2017-01-09T12:53:55.550" Comment="Proposed by 1241 approved by 57 edit id of 415" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9395" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2256" RevisionGUID="29bf2ec5-bfde-4739-a305-cdfd0953baac" CreationDate="2017-01-09T13:13:47.903" UserId="666" Text="Murder was very much a capital crime: Icelandic sagas are typically all about grand vendettas were there is one death upon another. However, there were honorable and not honorable killings, different rules for settling feuds by paying reparations, etc, which makes it a complicated mess. The main rule was, however, that if you killed someone, that person's nearest male relative was responsible for settling the score, one way or another (one exception was if someone left a daughter as sole heir: then she could seek right for herself, exactly as Skadi did after the death of her father).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But even this had one important exception: you could not seek revenge within your own family. Part of the backstory of *Beowulf* is how king Hrethel had two sons, Herebeald and Hæthcyn, until Hæthcyn killed his older brother in an hunting accident. Since it was not possible for Hrethel to take revenge, he eventually died from grief and shame.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is also reflected in the story of Balder: His father Odin could not take revenge on Höðr directly, so he fathered Váli to do it for him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarly, Loki was, at least according to *Lokasenna*, Odin's blood-brother. It certainly seems likely that this would afford him similar protection. This is further evidenced that when the gods finally want to tie Loki with the entrails of his son, Narfi, they transformed his other son Váli into a wolf to do it. The name seems to be of significance: it seems unlikely that two different persons bearing the same name were used in a similar manner for punishment, so there are likely deeper similarities. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The answer is thus that the gods likely *wanted* to punish Loki, but either hadn't figured out how without impugning their own honor, or that he had already fled when they found out what had happened. Loki then appeared under sanctuary in Aegirs halls in *Lokasenna*, but were finally caught. Even then, they could not kill him outright, so they deviced another punishment which would leave him alive.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The analysis above is partially based on Margaret Clunies Ross' *Prolonged echoes*, which discusses Odin and his revenge-by-proxy on Höðr, but which does not discuss the (initial lack of) punishment of Loki, from what I remember." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9396" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2255" RevisionGUID="0811722b-5442-43a7-9039-7880dbc08ed8" CreationDate="2017-01-09T13:17:21.127" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|odin|volsunga|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9397" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2253" RevisionGUID="465abe82-a6f8-4ae7-b625-dfdba52578d6" CreationDate="2017-01-09T13:54:27.067" UserDisplayName="user3198" Comment="added a tag" Text="|mythical-creatures|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9399" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2214" RevisionGUID="455ff79a-b5ac-4b38-96d2-47fca229e8f2" CreationDate="2017-01-09T16:10:39.870" UserId="183" Comment="added 1102 characters in body" Text="I looked for the same information many years ago and arrived at a website, that, at that time, stated that it could be estimated by the weight of the gold that he had accumulated. I remember that he was only one living at that period that had the greatest volume of gold, although Solomon, I believe it said, came close.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It also said that Croesus was by no means the richest person in history as far as gold goes, but the pharoahs from earlier times and such, would have owned more because, once, there was a lot more gold to easily extract under favorable circumstances.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, remember, that all of Croesus' wealth was captured by Cyrus when he took Lydia, just before Cyrus surprised and took Babylon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was years ago when I saw the webpage. In fact, it was at the beginning of the internet age. Like 1995 or so. It was a small and specialized website at the time and I suspect that it no longer exists, as it may have been updated into something better. By reading the Greek wikis and Turkish pages which cover the country where the nation of Lydia was located, it looks like you are able to gather plenty of information from the web.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice, that the entire kingdom of Lydia was absorbed by the new Persian Empire which, shortly, thereafter, went on to conquer the kingdom of Babylon. The Babylonian King was renowned for how much wealth they had accumulated, they having taken the treasures from the Assyrians and everyone they conquered thereafter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a reason that the Persians became associated with the zenith of luxuries. Like, the rich Persian carpets, Persian Princess, etc. At some point they became more wealthy than even Croesus because they extended their holdings all the way into India which was supplying them with rare gemstones in addition to gold and precious metals." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9403" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2258" RevisionGUID="4c28b1fb-d334-498c-b04b-cf1d9b89da8e" CreationDate="2017-01-09T21:10:45.170" UserId="2892" Text="You will find Theoi to be quite useful as Pandora is a covered topic, and aggregates the various sources of the Pandora myth in the Classical cannon: http://www.theoi.com/Heroine/Pandora.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(It's important to note that there is not a single &quot;Pandora&quot; story, but a series of stories and variations, beginning with Hesiod and Homer in about the 8th Century BCE up to about the 5th Century CE.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's worth considering the etymology of the names of the major players: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pandora is variously interpreted but is formed by the prefix &quot;pān&quot; meaning &quot;all&quot; and &quot;dōron&quot; for gifts.  Thus something like &quot;All Giving&quot; is quite accurate.  An implication of All Giving is that this includes the bad as well as the good, a theme intimately tied with the Prometheus cycle.  (i.e. Prometheus brings fire to mankind.  Fire warms but can also burn.  This may be taken as a metaphor for the dual benefits and dangers of technology.)  There is also the idea that without the evils of the world to beset mankind, what is the motivations for hope.  (i.e. can there be good without evil to contrast it with?)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Epimetheus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epimetheus_(mythology)) is likewise a combination of an ancient Greek prefix meaning &quot;before&quot; and a word for thought.  Thus his name is understood as &quot;Hindsight&quot; in contrast to his wise brother Prometheus (&quot;forethought&quot;).  Epimetheus, who is an important agent in the Pandora cycle, represents the folly of mankind, as in &quot;hindsight is 20/20&quot; or &quot;whoops!&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'd also highly recommend taking a look at [Pandora's Box: The Changing Aspects of a Mythical Symbol](http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/52753.Pandora_s_Box) by Dora and Erwin Panofsky for an excellent exploration of both the Pandora myth, and myths about the Pandora myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also Note: The use of &quot;box&quot; is a modern translation.  Hesiod, in [Works and Days](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0132%3Acard%3D83), where the story originates, uses the word πίθου [&quot;pithou&quot;, is a form of the noun [πίθος](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pi%2Fqos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=pi%2Fqos0#lexicon), which refers to a large jar, typically for wine but also for oil, which is a lubricant and suggest a metaphoric component to the idea of the famous &quot;box&quot;.]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9404" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2258" RevisionGUID="a97fbac8-22ba-4ef0-9d76-81c4e3b1f81f" CreationDate="2017-01-09T21:17:47.997" UserId="2892" Comment="snuck in the direct answer, although the real intent is to explain the context of the various sources of the myth, of which non-scholars may not be aware." Text="You will find Theoi to be quite useful as Pandora is a covered topic, and aggregates the various sources of the Pandora myth in the Classical cannon: http://www.theoi.com/Heroine/Pandora.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(It's important to note that there is not a single &quot;Pandora&quot; story, but a series of stories and variations, beginning with Hesiod and Homer in about the 8th Century BCE up to about the 5th Century CE. What the specific &quot;evils&quot; are depends to some extent on the source, but a general answer is &quot;all of the misfortunes that befall mankind&quot; and the good is &quot;hope&quot;.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's worth considering the etymology of the names of the major players: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pandora is variously interpreted but is formed by the prefix &quot;pān&quot; meaning &quot;all&quot; and &quot;dōron&quot; for gifts.  Thus something like &quot;All Giving&quot; is quite accurate.  An implication of All Giving is that this includes the bad as well as the good, a theme intimately tied with the Prometheus cycle.  (i.e. Prometheus brings fire to mankind.  Fire warms but can also burn.  This may be taken as a metaphor for the dual benefits and dangers of technology.)  There is also the idea that without the evils of the world to beset mankind, what is the motivations for hope.  (i.e. can there be good without evil to contrast it with?)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Epimetheus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epimetheus_(mythology)) is likewise a combination of an ancient Greek prefix meaning &quot;before&quot; and a word for thought.  Thus his name is understood as &quot;Hindsight&quot; in contrast to his wise brother Prometheus (&quot;forethought&quot;).  Epimetheus, who is an important agent in the Pandora cycle, represents the folly of mankind, as in &quot;hindsight is 20/20&quot; or &quot;whoops!&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'd also highly recommend taking a look at [Pandora's Box: The Changing Aspects of a Mythical Symbol](http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/52753.Pandora_s_Box) by Dora and Erwin Panofsky for an excellent exploration of both the Pandora myth, and myths about the Pandora myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also Note: The use of &quot;box&quot; is a modern translation.  Hesiod, in [Works and Days](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0132%3Acard%3D83), where the story originates, uses the word πίθου [&quot;pithou&quot;, is a form of the noun [πίθος](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pi%2Fqos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=pi%2Fqos0#lexicon), which refers to a large jar, typically for wine but also for oil, which is a lubricant and suggest a metaphoric component to the idea of the famous &quot;box&quot;.]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9405" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2258" RevisionGUID="fb6bcf8c-aca1-4990-8d64-614f51b6cb26" CreationDate="2017-01-09T21:48:48.200" UserId="2892" Comment="added some more detail in regards to the actual question, and contrasted Aesop and Hesiod" Text="You will find Theoi to be quite useful as Pandora is a covered topic and it aggregates the various sources of the Pandora myth in the Classical cannon: http://www.theoi.com/Heroine/Pandora.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(It's important to note that there is not a single &quot;Pandora&quot; story, but a series of stories and variations, beginning with Hesiod and Homer in about the 8th Century BCE up to about the 5th Century CE.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What the specific &quot;evils&quot; are depends to some extent on the source.  Hesiod, in [Works and Days](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_and_Days), specifically mentions plague and disease, but also suggests that before the event, mankind was not subject to &quot;evils&quot; (kakoi) or hard labor (ponoi). However Hesiod describes it differently in his [Theogony](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theogony) where he rather [misogynistically](http://www.dictionary.com/browse/misogynistic) suggests women themselves to be the source of many evils, which is a parallel to interpretations of [Eve](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eve) as the source of the fall of mankind in the Old Testament.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aesop, by contrast, presents a story in which the vessel is filled with all good things (which is one meaning of Pandora's name) and that opening it lets them escape so that mankind cannot benefit from them.  Aesop suggests that hope is the old good that does not fly away, this the &quot;good&quot; is generally interpreted to be hope.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's worth considering the etymology of the names of the major players: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pandora is variously interpreted but is formed by the prefix &quot;pān&quot; meaning &quot;all&quot; and &quot;dōron&quot; for gifts.  Thus something like &quot;All Giving&quot; is quite acceptable as an alternative to the idea of her name as &quot;All Gifts&quot;.  An implication of All Giving is that this includes the bad as well as the good, a theme intimately tied with the Prometheus cycle.  (i.e. Prometheus brings fire to mankind.  Fire warms but can also burn.  This may be taken as a metaphor for the dual benefits and dangers of technology.)  There is also the idea that without the evils of the world to beset mankind, what is the motivations for hope.  (i.e. can there be good without evil to contrast it with?) Note that Hesiod makes Prometheus' gift of fire to mankind the incitement for Zeus' subsequent punishment of mankind. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Epimetheus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epimetheus_(mythology)) is likewise a combination of an ancient Greek prefix meaning &quot;before&quot; and a word for thought.  Thus his name is understood as &quot;Hindsight&quot; in contrast to his wise brother Prometheus (&quot;forethought&quot;).  Epimetheus, who is an important agent in the Pandora cycle, represents the folly of mankind, as in &quot;hindsight is 20/20&quot; or &quot;whoops!&quot;. His involvement can be related to Adam in the Old Testament who only realizes his mistake after he eats the fruit and achieves knowledge, again a dual blessing and curse. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'd also highly recommend taking a look at [Pandora's Box: The Changing Aspects of a Mythical Symbol](http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/52753.Pandora_s_Box) by Dora and Erwin Panofsky for an excellent exploration of both the Pandora myth, and myths about the Pandora myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also Note: The use of &quot;box&quot; is a modern translation.  Hesiod, where the story originates, in his [Works and Days](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0132%3Acard%3D83) uses the word πίθου [&quot;pithou&quot;, is a form of the noun [πίθος](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pi%2Fqos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=pi%2Fqos0#lexicon), which refers to a large jar, typically for wine but also for oil, which is a lubricant and suggest a metaphoric component to the idea of the famous &quot;box&quot;.]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9406" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2258" RevisionGUID="9677f20d-613d-4af1-adb4-e080d0376ab0" CreationDate="2017-01-09T21:58:31.560" UserId="2892" Comment="a little more clarity on the goods vs. the evils" Text="You will find Theoi to be quite useful as Pandora is a covered topic and it aggregates the various sources of the Pandora myth in the Classical cannon: http://www.theoi.com/Heroine/Pandora.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's important to note that there is not a single &quot;Pandora&quot; story, but a series of stories and variations, beginning with Hesiod and Homer in about the 8th Century BCE up to about the 5th Century CE.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What the specific &quot;evils&quot; are depends to some extent on the source.  Hesiod, in [Works and Days](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_and_Days), specifically mentions plague and disease, but also suggests that before the event, mankind was not subject to &quot;evils&quot; (kakoi) or hard labor (ponoi). However Hesiod describes it differently in his [Theogony](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theogony) where he rather [misogynistically](http://www.dictionary.com/browse/misogynistic) suggests women themselves to be the source of many evils, which is a parallel to interpretations of [Eve](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eve) as the source of the fall of mankind in the Old Testament.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aesop, by contrast, presents a story in which the vessel is filled with &quot;all good things&quot; (which is one meaning of Pandora's name, though the particular things that are good are not specified.) Aesop suggests that opening the vessel lets the good things escape so that mankind cannot benefit from them.  Aesop suggests that hope is the *only* good thing that does not fly away, thus the &quot;good&quot; is generally interpreted to be hope.     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's worth considering the etymology of the names of the major players: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pandora is variously interpreted but is formed by the prefix &quot;pān&quot; meaning &quot;all&quot; and &quot;dōron&quot; for gifts.  Thus something like &quot;All Giving&quot; is quite acceptable as an alternative to the idea of her name as &quot;All Gifts&quot;.  An implication of All Giving is that this includes the bad as well as the good, a theme intimately tied with the Prometheus cycle.  (i.e. Prometheus brings fire to mankind.  Fire warms but can also burn.  This may be taken as a metaphor for the dual benefits and dangers of technology.)  There is also the idea that without the evils of the world to beset mankind, what is the motivation for hope?  (i.e. how does one define good without evil to contrast it with?) Note that Hesiod makes Prometheus' gift of fire to mankind the incitement for Zeus' subsequent punishment of mankind. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Epimetheus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epimetheus_(mythology)) is likewise a combination of an ancient Greek prefix meaning &quot;before&quot; and a word for thought.  Thus his name is understood as &quot;Hindsight&quot; in contrast to his wise brother Prometheus (&quot;forethought&quot;).  Epimetheus, who is an important agent in the Pandora cycle, represents the folly of mankind, as in &quot;hindsight is 20/20&quot; or &quot;whoops!&quot;. His involvement can be related to Adam in the Old Testament who only realizes his mistake after he eats the fruit and achieves knowledge, again a dual blessing and curse. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'd also highly recommend taking a look at [Pandora's Box: The Changing Aspects of a Mythical Symbol](http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/52753.Pandora_s_Box) by Dora and Erwin Panofsky for an excellent exploration of both the Pandora myth, and myths about the Pandora myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also Note: The use of &quot;box&quot; is a modern translation.  Hesiod, where the story originates, in his [Works and Days](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0132%3Acard%3D83) uses the word πίθου [&quot;pithou&quot;, is a form of the noun [πίθος](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pi%2Fqos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=pi%2Fqos0#lexicon), which refers to a large jar, typically for wine but also for oil, which is a lubricant and suggest a metaphoric component to the idea of the famous &quot;box&quot;.]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9407" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2259" RevisionGUID="7b6500ad-0b93-4776-9b1f-d0041566e015" CreationDate="2017-01-10T01:14:04.850" UserId="2892" Text="Everyone agrees that there are twelve Olympians, but the identities of the twelve seems to vary.  What is the deal?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9408" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2259" RevisionGUID="7b6500ad-0b93-4776-9b1f-d0041566e015" CreationDate="2017-01-10T01:14:04.850" UserId="2892" Text="Who are the twelve Olympian gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9409" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2259" RevisionGUID="7b6500ad-0b93-4776-9b1f-d0041566e015" CreationDate="2017-01-10T01:14:04.850" UserId="2892" Text="|greek|olympians|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9410" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2260" RevisionGUID="1f24cb5e-29fb-4788-b0ae-6a41ab073c51" CreationDate="2017-01-10T03:23:49.470" UserId="967" Text="&gt;The Twelve great gods of the Greeks were known as the Olympians. Together they presided over every aspect of human life. The goddess Hestia (listed here in the second rank) was sometimes included amongst the Twelve.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[From here][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So going with the list provided&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Aphrodite&#xD;&#xA;* Apollo&#xD;&#xA;* Ares&#xD;&#xA;* Artemis&#xD;&#xA;* Athena &#xD;&#xA;* Demeter&#xD;&#xA;* Dionysus&#xD;&#xA;* Hephaestus&#xD;&#xA;* Hermes&#xD;&#xA;* Hestia (Part-time)&#xD;&#xA;* Posideon&#xD;&#xA;* Zeus &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They seem to vary because of the age of the sources, I believe earlier sources say that Hestia is one of the 12.&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/greek-mythology/olympian-gods.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9411" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2258" RevisionGUID="4e1335ba-23dd-44bb-b764-d047d8f19d81" CreationDate="2017-01-10T04:23:28.150" UserId="2892" Comment="added a few details to clarify the ambiguity of the good and evil things, and explain the connection pf Pandora herself as the vessel in Theogony." Text="You will find Theoi to be quite useful as Pandora is a covered topic and it aggregates a variety of the Pandora myth in the Classical cannon: http://www.theoi.com/Heroine/Pandora.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's important to note that there is not a single &quot;Pandora&quot; story, but a series of stories and variations, beginning with Hesiod and Homer in about the 8th Century BCE up to about the 5th Century CE.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - What the specific &quot;evils&quot; are depends to some extent on the source, and even when specified, it is still pretty general.  Hesiod, in [Works and Days](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_and_Days), specifically mentions plague and disease, but also suggests that before the event, mankind was not subject to vices (one meaning of [kakoi](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ka%2Fkh&amp;la=greek&amp;can=ka%2Fkh0#lexicon) which is a general term for bad) or hard labor ([ponoi](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=po%2Fnoio&amp;la=greek&amp;can=po%2Fnoio0&amp;prior=xalepoi=o&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0131:card=83&amp;i=1)—in Ancient Greek this word for toil is also used to mean suffering and distress). However Hesiod describes it differently in his [Theogony](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theogony) where he rather [misogynistically](http://www.dictionary.com/browse/misogynistic) suggests women themselves to be the source of many evils, a parallel to interpretations of [Eve](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eve) as the source of the fall of mankind in the Old Testament.  [Hesiod's outlook was no doubt influence by his own unhappy experiences.] &#xD;&#xA; - Aesop, in contrast, presents a story in which the vessel is filled with &quot;all good things&quot; (which is one meaning of Pandora's name, in the sense that &quot;gifts&quot; are seen as good things) though the particular things that are good are not specified with the exception of &quot;[Elpis](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29lp-i%2Fs&amp;la=greek&amp;can=e%29lp-i%2Fs0)&quot; which means hope. Aesop suggests that opening the vessel lets the Good Things escape so that mankind cannot benefit from them, or that they were chased away by the Bad Things with the same result.  Aesop suggests that Hope stayed hidden beneath the rim of the jar, and thus did not fly away.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's worth considering the etymology of the names of the major players: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pandora is variously interpreted but is formed by the prefix &quot;pān&quot; meaning &quot;all&quot; and &quot;dōron&quot; for gifts.  Thus something like &quot;All Giving&quot; is quite acceptable as an alternative to the idea of her name as &quot;All Gifts&quot;.  An implication of All Giving is that this includes the bad as well as the good, a theme intimately tied with the [Prometheus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus) cycle.  Specifically, Prometheus brings fire to mankind.  Fire warms but can also burn.  This may be taken as a metaphor for the dual benefits and dangers of technology, but at a deeper level may be about the binary nature of things.  There is an idea that without the evils of the world to beset mankind, what is the motivation for hope?  (i.e. how does one define good without the opposite of good to contrast it with?) Hesiod makes Prometheus' gift of fire to mankind the incitement for Zeus' subsequent punishment of mankind through Pandora. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Epimetheus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epimetheus_(mythology)) is likewise a combination of an ancient Greek prefix meaning &quot;before&quot; and a word for thought.  Thus his name is understood as &quot;Hindsight&quot; in contrast to his wise brother Prometheus (&quot;forethought&quot;).  Epimetheus, who is an important agent in the Pandora cycle, represents the folly of mankind, as in &quot;hindsight is 20/20&quot; or &quot;whoops!&quot;. His involvement can be related to Adam in the Old Testament who is only able to realize his mistake *after* he eats the fruit and achieves knowledge. This is, again, a dual blessing and curse, brings the irony that it is only with consciousness, the knowledge of good and evil, that allow one to be aware of the experience of misfortune and suffering.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'd also highly recommend taking a look at [Pandora's Box: The Changing Aspects of a Mythical Symbol](http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/52753.Pandora_s_Box) by Dora and Erwin Panofsky for an excellent exploration of both the Pandora myth, and myths about the Pandora myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, the use of &quot;box&quot; is a modern translation.  Hesiod, where the story originates, in his [Works and Days](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0132%3Acard%3D83) uses the word πίθου [&quot;pithou&quot;, is a form of the noun [πίθος](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pi%2Fqos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=pi%2Fqos0#lexicon), which refers to a large jar, typically for wine but also for oil, which is a lubricant and suggest a metaphoric component to the idea of the famous &quot;box&quot;. If this is the case, it is consistent with Hesiod's idea of women as a source of evil in the Theogony, **where it is notable there is *no mention* of a &quot;box&quot; or other vessel**, save Pandora herself, who is there noted to be the mother of the race of woman.]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9412" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2261" RevisionGUID="10188c84-2317-4734-8588-9dfa57f84689" CreationDate="2017-01-10T08:07:39.780" UserId="57" Text="In chapter 10 of the Saga of the Völsungs, Sigmund's son Sinfjotli dies. His corpse is presumably carried to the underworld by a mysterious boatman, in a manner reminiscent of the Greek ferryman of Hades, Charon: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So Sinfjotli drank, and straightway fell down dead to the ground.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sigmund rose up, and sorrowed nigh to death over him; then he took the corpse in his arms and fared away to the wood, and went till he came to a certain firth; and then he saw a man in a little boat; and that man asked if he would be wafted by him over the firth, and he said yes thereto; but so little was the boat, that they might not all go in it at once, so the corpse was first laid therein, while Sigmund went by the firth-side. But therewith the boat and the man therein vanished away from before Sigmund's eyes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Story of the Volsungs, translated by William Morris and Eirikr Magnusson&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who is this mysterious boatman? Is he mentioned in any other Norse legend?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9413" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2261" RevisionGUID="10188c84-2317-4734-8588-9dfa57f84689" CreationDate="2017-01-10T08:07:39.780" UserId="57" Text="Who is the boatman that took away Sinfjotli's corpse?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9414" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2261" RevisionGUID="10188c84-2317-4734-8588-9dfa57f84689" CreationDate="2017-01-10T08:07:39.780" UserId="57" Text="|norse|volsunga|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9415" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2261" RevisionGUID="32a68f09-ad2f-4ff8-a1cf-18d1c4f7e12a" CreationDate="2017-01-10T08:41:52.897" UserId="57" Comment="added 3 characters in body" Text="In chapter 10 of the Saga of the Völsungs, Sigmund's son Sinfjotli dies. His corpse is presumably carried to the underworld by a mysterious boatman, in a manner reminiscent of the Greek ferryman of Hades, Charon: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So Sinfjotli drank, and straightway fell down dead to the ground.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sigmund rose up, and sorrowed nigh to death over him; then he took the corpse in his arms and fared away to the wood, and went till he came to a certain firth; and then he saw a man in a little boat; and that man asked if he would be wafted by him over the firth, and he said yes thereto; but so little was the boat, that they might not all go in it at once, so the corpse was first laid therein, while Sigmund went by the firth-side. But therewith the boat and the man therein vanished away from before Sigmund's eyes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Story of the Volsungs, translated by William Morris and Eirikr Magnusson&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who is this mysterious psychopomp? Is he mentioned in any other Norse legend?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9416" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2261" RevisionGUID="8bac1d52-92bb-4b49-ae87-0717ad6bfe8c" CreationDate="2017-01-10T09:09:06.663" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|underworld|volsunga|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9424" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2262" RevisionGUID="6dceead8-55aa-455d-84da-730fce822b28" CreationDate="2017-01-10T13:34:54.187" UserId="1511" Text="Google Khajuraho and you will come upon one of the UNESCO World Heritage Sites in India. The Khajuraho temples feature a variety of art work, of which 10% is sexual or erotic art outside and inside the temples. People describe it as &quot;the apogee of erotic art.&quot; Why would the ancient Hindus depict these figures - does it have to do with their religion and tradition? What was the aim? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9425" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2262" RevisionGUID="6dceead8-55aa-455d-84da-730fce822b28" CreationDate="2017-01-10T13:34:54.187" UserId="1511" Text="Why there are graphic depictions of sexual acts in some Hindu temples?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9426" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2262" RevisionGUID="6dceead8-55aa-455d-84da-730fce822b28" CreationDate="2017-01-10T13:34:54.187" UserId="1511" Text="|hindu|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9428" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2242" RevisionGUID="2fc9a900-eea9-4212-9808-fba6c2bf4ec4" CreationDate="2017-01-10T19:11:42.727" UserId="2892" Comment="Added info on the Theseus-Hippolyta-Minoan connection" Text="I'll start out by noting that Amazons come from Greek mythology but the character known as Wonder Woman is a modern invention, inspired by, but not present in the Classical canon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first clue is her name, Diana.  Diana was the Roman name for the Greek goddess Artemis, famous for her archery skills.  **Key point: Diana is not an Ancient Greek name.**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Wikipedia has a very comprehensive list of actual names of Amazon warriors](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazons#Lists) from mythology. You'll see names like Deianeira and Dioxippe, but not Diana.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although Wonder Woman is a modern invention, the legends of the [Amazons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazons) do derive from actual Greek mythology.  The most famous Amazons are surely [Penthesilea](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penthesilea) and her sister, [Hippolyta](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippolyta_(DC_Comics)), who took [Theseus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theseus) as her husband. (As a Wonder Woman fan, you will know that her mother is named for this actual, mythological figure.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Themiscyra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Themiscyra_(Pontus)) does feature in the ancient Greek histories as a legendary town of the Amazons as early as the 5th century BCE.  (The Greek histories are entwined with the mythological canon in that the mythical origins of places are often discussed.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Themiscyra is not associated with Atlantis in the greater Classical canon**, although there is a similarity in that Themiscyra's location is a subject of some dispute.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding [Atlantis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantis), it also dates from the Classical period, although it is not a location of mythological stories per se, but first appears in [Plato](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_(Plato)) as part of an allegory on national [hubris](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no evidence that Atlantis was anything other than an invention of Plato, although many have speculated to the contrary. For instance, the island of [Thera](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santorini) is often put forth as an actual location.  Thera was famously subject to [a massive volcanic eruption](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_eruption) and subsequent submersion of most of the island under the sea.  It's also worth noting that Minoan civilization was a pre-cursor of Greek civilization--an advanced culture based on an island dominating the region--so the idea of an Atlantis may also be related to the impact of Minoan hegemony in the ancient Greek cultural consciousness.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact, the famous mythological Amazon [Hippolyta is linked to Theseus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippolyta#The_Ninth_Labour_of_Heracles), and Theseus is linked to Minoan Crete through the story of the [Minotaur](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minotaur#Theseus_and_the_Minotaur). The tribute of &#xD;&#xA;the Athenian youths to be devoured by the Minotaur is an example of the former domination of the Minoans over the Greek tribes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, **no, Atlantis is not a location that figures in the formal canon of Classical Mythology, but has subsequently been widely mythologized.**  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9429" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2264" RevisionGUID="62219543-633c-49ce-8ca6-e8a308b18e7d" CreationDate="2017-01-10T19:32:41.230" UserId="2892" Text="The [Kamasutra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kama_Sutra) likely holds some clues.  At the very least, it demonstrates that sexuality was a topic covered in Vedic literature.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Puruṣārtha](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puru%E1%B9%A3%C4%81rtha) is a concept in Hinduism referring to the goals of human life.  One of these goals is [Kama](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kama) which is a term for desire.  Although Kama is not exclusively sexual desire, sexual desire a component.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Kamasutra is widely misunderstood in that in the modern imagination it is regarded as a kind of sex manual as opposed to a religious text exploring the spiritual aspects of sensation and pleasures of the senses in general. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also a tradition of [Tantric](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantras) pursuits in Hinduism and, later, in Buddhism.  Tantric practice, like the Kamasutra, is widely misinterpreted to be exclusively related to sexual rituals, although in fact Tantric practice connotes a wide array of esoteric practices.  Nevertheless, sexual practice is one form of Tantric pursuit. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although I, unfortunately, have only cursory knowledge of Hinduism, a tradition which is extraordinarily vast and varied, hopefully this answer will provide at least some insight." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9430" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2240" RevisionGUID="af4d6750-a8f6-4eb2-8822-2afd235b40dc" CreationDate="2017-01-10T19:55:15.850" UserId="2892" Comment="Reworded the question in attempt to render it &quot;on topic&quot;  in a way that still keeps it useful to those with similar questions on the origin of Wonder Woman who is perhaps the leading example of Amazon mythology in a popular, modern canon (i.e. comic books)" Text="Does anyone have any real proof not from comics or movies that Diana Themyscira is an actual figure from mythology?  How does Atlantis relate to this?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;______________&#xD;&#xA;For background, [Diana of Themyscira](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonder_Woman) is name of the modern superhero, Wonder Woman.  In the comic books, [Themyscira](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Themyscira_(DC_Comics)) is the capital of the Amazons, and depicted as a mysterious island with a hidden location, similar to Atlantis.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9431" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2240" RevisionGUID="af4d6750-a8f6-4eb2-8822-2afd235b40dc" CreationDate="2017-01-10T19:55:15.850" UserId="2892" Comment="Reworded the question in attempt to render it &quot;on topic&quot;  in a way that still keeps it useful to those with similar questions on the origin of Wonder Woman who is perhaps the leading example of Amazon mythology in a popular, modern canon (i.e. comic books)" Text="How is Diana of Themyscira related to the Amazons of Greek Mythology and Atlantis?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9436" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2266" RevisionGUID="073d5ec6-78f8-4f59-a3e4-cda431823679" CreationDate="2017-01-11T11:15:02.717" UserId="201" Text="I had always believed from previous readings that Eros (Cupid), the archer-god of love, was the son of Aphrodite, and his father wasn't mentioned. I now read in &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theoi.com/Ouranios/Eros.html&quot;&gt;Eros's entry on Theoi.com&lt;/a&gt; that his parentage is variously ascribed to:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Gaea and Ouranos&#xD;&#xA; - Aphrodite and Ares&#xD;&#xA; - Aphrodite and Ouranos&#xD;&#xA; - The primordial Chaos, also called the goddess Nyx&#xD;&#xA; - Iris (the rainbow) and Zephryos (the West Wind)&#xD;&#xA; - a few other couples whose names I don't recognize&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Given that we're talking about stories which are like three millennia old, is there any way to determine which is the &quot;right&quot; parentage for Eros? Is it by virtue of volume? (that is, the most myths have him as the child of X, so we're calling that &quot;correct&quot;) Is it by whatever stories are oldest? Is it by whichever myth had the most adherents at the time?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've never seen a deity's origins quite so varied, so I'm not sure which, if any, to declare as &quot;the right one.&quot; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9437" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2266" RevisionGUID="073d5ec6-78f8-4f59-a3e4-cda431823679" CreationDate="2017-01-11T11:15:02.717" UserId="201" Text="Eros Has Two (or More) Mommies. Is there a &quot;right&quot; one?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9438" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2266" RevisionGUID="073d5ec6-78f8-4f59-a3e4-cda431823679" CreationDate="2017-01-11T11:15:02.717" UserId="201" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9439" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2258" RevisionGUID="c4a5f85c-21b0-4464-aae5-a6a8651ad3fd" CreationDate="2017-01-11T13:45:53.757" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved formatting." Text="You will find Theoi to be quite useful as Pandora is a covered topic and it aggregates a variety of the Pandora myth in the Classical cannon: [PANDORA](http://www.theoi.com/Heroine/Pandora.html).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's important to note that there is not a single &quot;Pandora&quot; story, but a series of stories and variations, beginning with Hesiod and Homer in about the 8th Century BCE up to about the 5th Century CE.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - What the specific &quot;evils&quot; are depends to some extent on the source, and even when specified, it is still pretty general.  Hesiod, in [Works and Days](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_and_Days), specifically mentions plague and disease, but also suggests that before the event, mankind was not subject to vices (one meaning of [kakoi](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ka%2Fkh&amp;la=greek&amp;can=ka%2Fkh0#lexicon) which is a general term for bad) or hard labor ([ponoi](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=po%2Fnoio&amp;la=greek&amp;can=po%2Fnoio0&amp;prior=xalepoi=o&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0131:card=83&amp;i=1)—in Ancient Greek this word for toil is also used to mean suffering and distress). However Hesiod describes it differently in his [Theogony](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theogony) where he rather [misogynistically](http://www.dictionary.com/browse/misogynistic) suggests women themselves to be the source of many evils, a parallel to interpretations of [Eve](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eve) as the source of the fall of mankind in the Old Testament.  [Hesiod's outlook was no doubt influence by his own unhappy experiences.] &#xD;&#xA; - Aesop, in contrast, presents a story in which the vessel is filled with &quot;all good things&quot; (which is one meaning of Pandora's name, in the sense that &quot;gifts&quot; are seen as good things) though the particular things that are good are not specified with the exception of &quot;[Elpis](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29lp-i%2Fs&amp;la=greek&amp;can=e%29lp-i%2Fs0)&quot; which means hope. Aesop suggests that opening the vessel lets the Good Things escape so that mankind cannot benefit from them, or that they were chased away by the Bad Things with the same result.  Aesop suggests that Hope stayed hidden beneath the rim of the jar, and thus did not fly away.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's worth considering the etymology of the names of the major players: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pandora is variously interpreted but is formed by the prefix &quot;pān&quot; meaning &quot;all&quot; and &quot;dōron&quot; for gifts.  Thus something like &quot;All Giving&quot; is quite acceptable as an alternative to the idea of her name as &quot;All Gifts&quot;.  An implication of All Giving is that this includes the bad as well as the good, a theme intimately tied with the [Prometheus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus) cycle.  Specifically, Prometheus brings fire to mankind.  Fire warms but can also burn.  This may be taken as a metaphor for the dual benefits and dangers of technology, but at a deeper level may be about the binary nature of things.  There is an idea that without the evils of the world to beset mankind, what is the motivation for hope?  (i.e. how does one define good without the opposite of good to contrast it with?) Hesiod makes Prometheus' gift of fire to mankind the incitement for Zeus' subsequent punishment of mankind through Pandora. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Epimetheus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epimetheus_(mythology)) is likewise a combination of an ancient Greek prefix meaning &quot;before&quot; and a word for thought.  Thus his name is understood as &quot;Hindsight&quot; in contrast to his wise brother Prometheus (&quot;forethought&quot;).  Epimetheus, who is an important agent in the Pandora cycle, represents the folly of mankind, as in &quot;hindsight is 20/20&quot; or &quot;whoops!&quot;. His involvement can be related to Adam in the Old Testament who is only able to realize his mistake *after* he eats the fruit and achieves knowledge. This is, again, a dual blessing and curse, brings the irony that it is only with consciousness, the knowledge of good and evil, that allow one to be aware of the experience of misfortune and suffering.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'd also highly recommend taking a look at [Pandora's Box: The Changing Aspects of a Mythical Symbol](http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/52753.Pandora_s_Box) by Dora and Erwin Panofsky for an excellent exploration of both the Pandora myth, and myths about the Pandora myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, the use of &quot;box&quot; is a modern translation.  Hesiod, where the story originates, in his [Works and Days](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0132%3Acard%3D83) uses the word πίθου [&quot;pithou&quot;, is a form of the noun [πίθος](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pi%2Fqos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=pi%2Fqos0#lexicon), which refers to a large jar, typically for wine but also for oil, which is a lubricant and suggest a metaphoric component to the idea of the famous &quot;box&quot;. If this is the case, it is consistent with Hesiod's idea of women as a source of evil in the Theogony, **where it is notable there is *no mention* of a &quot;box&quot; or other vessel**, save Pandora herself, who is there noted to be the mother of the race of woman.]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9440" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2258" RevisionGUID="c4a5f85c-21b0-4464-aae5-a6a8651ad3fd" CreationDate="2017-01-11T13:45:53.757" Comment="Proposed by 1241 approved by -1 edit id of 417" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9441" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2258" RevisionGUID="8c8a3755-354f-48f4-b047-ac8d054940bd" CreationDate="2017-01-11T13:45:53.757" UserId="967" Comment="Improved formatting." Text="You will find Theoi to be quite useful as Pandora is a covered topic and it aggregates a variety of the Pandora myth in the Classical cannon: [Pandora](http://www.theoi.com/Heroine/Pandora.html).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's important to note that there is not a single &quot;Pandora&quot; story, but a series of stories and variations, beginning with Hesiod and Homer in about the 8th Century BCE up to about the 5th Century CE.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - What the specific &quot;evils&quot; are depends to some extent on the source, and even when specified, it is still pretty general.  Hesiod, in [Works and Days](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_and_Days), specifically mentions plague and disease, but also suggests that before the event, mankind was not subject to vices (one meaning of [kakoi](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ka%2Fkh&amp;la=greek&amp;can=ka%2Fkh0#lexicon) which is a general term for bad) or hard labor ([ponoi](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=po%2Fnoio&amp;la=greek&amp;can=po%2Fnoio0&amp;prior=xalepoi=o&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0131:card=83&amp;i=1)—in Ancient Greek this word for toil is also used to mean suffering and distress). However Hesiod describes it differently in his [Theogony](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theogony) where he rather [misogynistically](http://www.dictionary.com/browse/misogynistic) suggests women themselves to be the source of many evils, a parallel to interpretations of [Eve](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eve) as the source of the fall of mankind in the Old Testament.  [Hesiod's outlook was no doubt influence by his own unhappy experiences.] &#xD;&#xA; - Aesop, in contrast, presents a story in which the vessel is filled with &quot;all good things&quot; (which is one meaning of Pandora's name, in the sense that &quot;gifts&quot; are seen as good things) though the particular things that are good are not specified with the exception of &quot;[Elpis](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29lp-i%2Fs&amp;la=greek&amp;can=e%29lp-i%2Fs0)&quot; which means hope. Aesop suggests that opening the vessel lets the Good Things escape so that mankind cannot benefit from them, or that they were chased away by the Bad Things with the same result.  Aesop suggests that Hope stayed hidden beneath the rim of the jar, and thus did not fly away.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's worth considering the etymology of the names of the major players: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pandora is variously interpreted but is formed by the prefix &quot;pān&quot; meaning &quot;all&quot; and &quot;dōron&quot; for gifts.  Thus something like &quot;All Giving&quot; is quite acceptable as an alternative to the idea of her name as &quot;All Gifts&quot;.  An implication of All Giving is that this includes the bad as well as the good, a theme intimately tied with the [Prometheus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus) cycle.  Specifically, Prometheus brings fire to mankind.  Fire warms but can also burn.  This may be taken as a metaphor for the dual benefits and dangers of technology, but at a deeper level may be about the binary nature of things.  There is an idea that without the evils of the world to beset mankind, what is the motivation for hope?  (i.e. how does one define good without the opposite of good to contrast it with?) Hesiod makes Prometheus' gift of fire to mankind the incitement for Zeus' subsequent punishment of mankind through Pandora. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Epimetheus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epimetheus_(mythology)) is likewise a combination of an ancient Greek prefix meaning &quot;before&quot; and a word for thought.  Thus his name is understood as &quot;Hindsight&quot; in contrast to his wise brother Prometheus (&quot;forethought&quot;).  Epimetheus, who is an important agent in the Pandora cycle, represents the folly of mankind, as in &quot;hindsight is 20/20&quot; or &quot;whoops!&quot;. His involvement can be related to Adam in the Old Testament who is only able to realize his mistake *after* he eats the fruit and achieves knowledge. This is, again, a dual blessing and curse, brings the irony that it is only with consciousness, the knowledge of good and evil, that allow one to be aware of the experience of misfortune and suffering.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'd also highly recommend taking a look at [Pandora's Box: The Changing Aspects of a Mythical Symbol](http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/52753.Pandora_s_Box) by Dora and Erwin Panofsky for an excellent exploration of both the Pandora myth, and myths about the Pandora myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, the use of &quot;box&quot; is a modern translation.  Hesiod, where the story originates, in his [Works and Days](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0132%3Acard%3D83) uses the word πίθου [&quot;pithou&quot;, is a form of the noun [πίθος](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pi%2Fqos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=pi%2Fqos0#lexicon), which refers to a large jar, typically for wine but also for oil, which is a lubricant and suggest a metaphoric component to the idea of the famous &quot;box&quot;. If this is the case, it is consistent with Hesiod's idea of women as a source of evil in the Theogony, **where it is notable there is *no mention* of a &quot;box&quot; or other vessel**, save Pandora herself, who is there noted to be the mother of the race of woman.]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9442" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2260" RevisionGUID="b15e4a88-d69c-40bd-8bde-c0f5cf761444" CreationDate="2017-01-11T13:46:18.323" UserId="967" Comment="added 8 characters in body" Text="&gt;The Twelve great gods of the Greeks were known as the Olympians. Together they presided over every aspect of human life. The goddess Hestia (listed here in the second rank) was sometimes included amongst the Twelve.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[From here][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So going with the list provided&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Aphrodite&#xD;&#xA;* Apollo&#xD;&#xA;* Ares&#xD;&#xA;* Artemis&#xD;&#xA;* Athena &#xD;&#xA;* Demeter&#xD;&#xA;* Dionysus&#xD;&#xA;* Hephaestus&#xD;&#xA;* Hermes&#xD;&#xA;* Hestia (Part-time)&#xD;&#xA;* Hera&#xD;&#xA;* Posideon&#xD;&#xA;* Zeus &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They seem to vary because of the age of the sources, I believe earlier sources say that Hestia is one of the 12.&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/greek-mythology/olympian-gods.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9443" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2267" RevisionGUID="2e7a97c4-b7a3-48f7-abcd-89611b8a47f6" CreationDate="2017-01-11T16:24:25.947" UserId="3344" Text="does anyone know a myth that refers/explains the feeling of incompleteness that humans have, and which drives us, makes us seekers of a missing something/fulfillment?&#xD;&#xA;Ideally an ancient or primitive myth.&#xD;&#xA;I find creation myths with embedded references to the disconnection between human and god/divinity, but not a mention to to a identifiable missing part or piece...&#xD;&#xA;Thank you!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9444" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2267" RevisionGUID="2e7a97c4-b7a3-48f7-abcd-89611b8a47f6" CreationDate="2017-01-11T16:24:25.947" UserId="3344" Text="Humans' missing piece" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9445" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2267" RevisionGUID="2e7a97c4-b7a3-48f7-abcd-89611b8a47f6" CreationDate="2017-01-11T16:24:25.947" UserId="3344" Text="|creation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9446" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2258" RevisionGUID="148cc3c3-b3db-445f-ae11-8e913fb60e55" CreationDate="2017-01-11T17:47:15.667" UserId="2892" Comment="Added information on a word used for the good things in Homer.  Still working on tracking down the Aesop passages in Greek." Text="You will find Theoi to be quite useful as Pandora is a covered topic and it aggregates a variety of the Pandora myth in the Classical cannon: [Pandora](http://www.theoi.com/Heroine/Pandora.html).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's important to note that there is not a single &quot;Pandora&quot; story, but a series of stories and variations, beginning with Hesiod and Homer in about the 8th Century BCE up to about the 5th Century CE.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - What the specific &quot;evils&quot; are depends to some extent on the source, and even when specified, it is still pretty general.  Hesiod, in [Works and Days](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_and_Days), specifically mentions plague and disease, but also suggests that before the event, mankind was not subject to vices (one meaning of [kakoi](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ka%2Fkh&amp;la=greek&amp;can=ka%2Fkh0#lexicon) which is a general term for bad) or hard labor ([ponoi](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=po%2Fnoio&amp;la=greek&amp;can=po%2Fnoio0&amp;prior=xalepoi=o&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0131:card=83&amp;i=1)—in Ancient Greek this word for toil is also used to mean suffering and distress). However Hesiod describes it differently in his [Theogony](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theogony) where he rather [misogynistically](http://www.dictionary.com/browse/misogynistic) suggests women themselves to be the source of many evils, a parallel to interpretations of [Eve](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eve) as the source of the fall of mankind in the Old Testament.  [Hesiod's outlook was no doubt influenced by his own unhappy experiences.] &#xD;&#xA; - Aesop, in contrast, presents a story in which the vessel is filled with &quot;all good things&quot; (which is one meaning of Pandora's name, in the sense that &quot;gifts&quot; are seen as good things) though the particular things that are good are not specified with the exception of &quot;[Elpis](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29lp-i%2Fs&amp;la=greek&amp;can=e%29lp-i%2Fs0)&quot; which means hope. Aesop suggests that opening the vessel lets the Good Things escape so that mankind cannot benefit from them, or that they were chased away by the Bad Things with the same result.  Aesop suggests that Hope stayed hidden beneath the rim of the jar, and thus did not fly away.  I'm having trouble finding the Aesop passages online in Greek *[when I get me hands on the text I'll amend]* so I can't confirm specifically what word he uses for the Good Things, but [Homer, in the Iliad, Book 24](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D24%3Acard%3D507), which is a similar account to Aesop's, uses &quot;[doron](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=dw%3Dron&amp;la=greek&amp;can=dw%3Dron0)&quot; which simply means gifts, and in some cases, blessings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's worth considering the etymology of the names of the major players: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pandora is variously interpreted but is formed by the prefix &quot;pān&quot; meaning &quot;all&quot; and &quot;dōron&quot; for gifts.  Thus something like &quot;All Giving&quot; is quite acceptable as an alternative to the idea of her name as &quot;All Gifts&quot;.  An implication of All Giving is that this includes the bad as well as the good, a theme intimately tied with the [Prometheus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus) cycle.  Specifically, Prometheus brings fire to mankind.  Fire warms but can also burn.  This may be taken as a metaphor for the dual benefits and dangers of technology, but at a deeper level may be about the binary nature of things.  There is an idea that without the evils of the world to beset mankind, what is the motivation for hope?  (i.e. how does one define good without the opposite of good to contrast it with?) Hesiod makes Prometheus' gift of fire to mankind the incitement for Zeus' subsequent punishment of mankind through Pandora. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Epimetheus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epimetheus_(mythology)) is likewise a combination of an ancient Greek prefix meaning &quot;before&quot; and a word for thought.  Thus his name is understood as &quot;Hindsight&quot; in contrast to his wise brother Prometheus (&quot;forethought&quot;).  Epimetheus, who is an important agent in the Pandora cycle, represents the folly of mankind, as in &quot;hindsight is 20/20&quot; or &quot;whoops!&quot;--his wiser brother strongly cautions him against accepting any gifts from Zeus. Epimetheus' involvement can be related to Adam in the Old Testament who is only able to realize his mistake *after* he eats the fruit and achieves knowledge. This is, again, a dual blessing and curse, brings the irony that it is only with consciousness, the knowledge of good and evil, that allow one to be aware of the experience of misfortune and suffering.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'd also highly recommend taking a look at [Pandora's Box: The Changing Aspects of a Mythical Symbol](http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/52753.Pandora_s_Box) by Dora and Erwin Panofsky for an excellent exploration of both the Pandora myth, and myths about the Pandora myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, the use of &quot;box&quot; is a modern translation.  Hesiod, where the story originates, in his [Works and Days](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0132%3Acard%3D83) uses the word πίθου [&quot;pithou&quot;, is a form of the noun [πίθος](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pi%2Fqos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=pi%2Fqos0#lexicon), which refers to a large jar, typically for wine but also for oil, which is a lubricant and suggest a metaphoric component to the idea of the famous &quot;box&quot;. If this is the case, it is consistent with Hesiod's idea of women as a source of evil in the Theogony, **where it is notable there is *no mention* of a &quot;box&quot; or other vessel**, save Pandora herself, who is there noted to be the mother of the race of woman.]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9447" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2268" RevisionGUID="9184a87f-74e7-433e-9914-01f7aed00634" CreationDate="2017-01-11T18:25:03.883" UserId="2892" Text="This is not an uncommon occurrence in Classical Mythology due to the wide variety of textual sources over a period of more than 1000 years.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod may be the oldest source, and it could certainly be argued he is the most significant of the sources, and for that reason his version could be taken as definitive, but clearly subsequent Classical authors disagreed with his take and felt compelled to offer different accounts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But Sappho was a great poet and thus her insights should not be lightly discounted.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pausanias was an historian and reports two conflicting opinions on the parentage--one account confirms Hesiod and one presents an alternate belief.  But his offering of two accounts validates that, even in the Classical period, such questions were subject to disagreement or dispute. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Plato is one of the greatest philosophers and although his take was undoubtedly meant as allegory, it should likewise be considered important.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm just grabbing a few of the sources to highlight the point that the myths are &quot;living&quot; and subject to change and re-interpretation over time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*A followup question you may want to consider (as it would surely yield some interesting analysis) is &quot;What are the possible meanings of the different versions of the parentage of Eros?&quot;*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9448" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2268" RevisionGUID="c022d1f4-49cd-4640-987b-67325d2d9069" CreationDate="2017-01-11T18:44:19.987" UserId="2892" Comment="Added a point on localized deities and merger of deities" Text="This is not an uncommon occurrence in Classical Mythology due to the wide variety of textual sources over a period of more than 1000 years.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod may be the oldest source, and it could certainly be argued he is the most significant of the sources and for that reason his version could be taken as definitive, but clearly subsequent Classical authors disagreed and felt compelled to offer different accounts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sappho, for instance, was a great poet and thus her insights should not be lightly discounted.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pausanias was an historian and reports two conflicting opinions on the parentage--one account confirms Hesiod and one presents an alternate belief.  But his offering of two accounts validates that, even in the Classical period, such questions were subject to disagreement or dispute. (Many deities had unique, local variants, and in some cases multiple deities may have merged into a single deity as cultures merged.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Plato is one of the great philosophers and although his take was undoubtedly meant as allegory, it should likewise be considered important.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm just grabbing a few of the sources to highlight the point that the myths are &quot;living&quot; and subject to change and re-interpretation over time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*A followup question you may want to consider (as it would surely yield some interesting analysis) is &quot;What are the possible meanings of the different versions of the parentage of Eros?&quot;*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9449" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2266" RevisionGUID="c3c9325b-9e6b-498d-a2bb-5ec4cdd64b80" CreationDate="2017-01-11T23:59:40.613" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="better title" Text="Who is Eros' mother? Why do so many different sources disagree?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9450" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1259" RevisionGUID="ce5d53f9-4061-46a2-aa03-9d781d1e348c" CreationDate="2017-01-12T00:53:19.807" UserId="967" Comment="added 103 characters in body" Text="TLDR; Cronos was in charge of a Golden Age for humanity, exactly what Zeus wanted for the Isles of the Blest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Theoi][1] says&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Many human generations later, Zeus released Kronos and his brothers from this prison, and made the old Titan king of the Elysian Islands, home of the blessed dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So that eliminates the &quot;Kronos-only theory&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kronos DID rule the &quot;Golden Age, where [maicar][2] says-&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Cronos has been celebrated for having ruled the world under the period known as the Golden Age, which is the first age of man. At this time there were no punishments, no swords, no helmets and no threatening words, and even to eat the flesh of oxen was held a crime. And being so, war was unknown and life passed in gentle ease. This was the time when spring was everlasting, and streams of milk, nectar and honey flowed in abundance. And, as unbelievable as it sounds, this was the nature of the rule held by the one who castrated his father: a time and a rule without pain, during which the earth, without compulsion, brought forth great stores of all kinds of needful things, and men lived secure never cheating or destroying each other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Zeus released Cronos from his bonds and let him rule the Islands of the Blest, a place where the virtuous come after death, retaining their faculties and enjoying a life free of care&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, Kronos was capable of making a perfect humanity, something we all want, what the &quot;bad guys&quot; revolve their &quot;argument&quot; over, from the ultimate story of Kronos and the Golden age. Zeus wanted a &quot;Golden Age&quot; for the Isles of the Blest. So he released Kronos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Irrelevant: I really don't think Kronos was a bad guy, he was lead by Gaea in her blind rage)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanKronos.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.maicar.com/GML/Cronos.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9452" PostHistoryTypeId="7" PostId="2266" RevisionGUID="573916e2-4edc-45f9-bd2b-80f272ac6ed1" CreationDate="2017-01-12T01:26:36.043" UserId="201" Comment="Rollback to [073d5ec6-78f8-4f59-a3e4-cda431823679]" Text="Eros Has Two (or More) Mommies. Is there a &quot;right&quot; one?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9453" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2267" RevisionGUID="1c43fe56-83c1-4ad8-952e-de8894b3441c" CreationDate="2017-01-12T02:02:28.267" UserId="967" Comment="deleted 10 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Does anyone know a myth that refers/explains the feeling of incompleteness that humans have, and which drives us, makes us seekers of a missing something/fulfillment?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ideally an ancient or primitive myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I find creation myths with embedded references to the disconnection between human and god/divinity, but not a mention to to a identifiable missing part or piece." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9454" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2267" RevisionGUID="1c43fe56-83c1-4ad8-952e-de8894b3441c" CreationDate="2017-01-12T02:02:28.267" UserId="967" Comment="deleted 10 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Humans' missing piece myth identification" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9455" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2267" RevisionGUID="1c43fe56-83c1-4ad8-952e-de8894b3441c" CreationDate="2017-01-12T02:02:28.267" UserId="967" Comment="deleted 10 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|myth-identification|creation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9456" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2266" RevisionGUID="6cf719e7-52a7-48c7-8222-6663adfdcd4c" CreationDate="2017-01-12T13:29:08.827" UserId="201" Comment="added 13 characters in body" Text="I had always believed from previous readings that Eros (Cupid), the archer-god of love, was the son of Aphrodite, and his father wasn't mentioned. I now read in &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theoi.com/Ouranios/Eros.html&quot;&gt;Eros's entry on Theoi.com&lt;/a&gt; that his parentage is variously ascribed to:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Gaea and Ouranos&#xD;&#xA; - Aphrodite and Ares&#xD;&#xA; - Aphrodite and Ouranos&#xD;&#xA; - The primordial Chaos, also called the goddess Nyx&#xD;&#xA; - Iris (the rainbow) and Zephryos (the West Wind)&#xD;&#xA; - a few other couples whose names I don't recognize&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Given that we're talking about stories which are like three millennia old, is there any way to determine who are the &quot;right&quot; mother and father for Eros? Is it by virtue of volume? (that is, the most myths have him as the child of X and Y, so we're calling that &quot;correct&quot;) Is it by whatever stories are oldest? Is it by whichever myth had the most adherents at the time?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've never seen a deity's origins quite so varied, so I'm not sure which, if any, to declare as &quot;the right one.&quot; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9457" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2269" RevisionGUID="484ad447-5d0e-4c2f-8491-310207c32f72" CreationDate="2017-01-12T13:35:14.857" UserId="1241" Text="Why there are graphic depictions of sexual acts in some Hindu temples, especially the [Khajuraho Group of Temples][1]?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As in many cultures, sex has been considered sacred throughout the ages, the Hindu culture is no different.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Hinduism only approves the marital sex as sacred and prohibits premarital or extramarital sex. Some sects in Hinduism worship Yoni (female sex organ) as the Goddess. Hindus worship Lord Shiva in the form of Lingam, which is a symbol of male creative energy and is always shown with Yoni, the symbol of female creative energy. - [Sex and Hinduism][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for why there are graphic depictions of sexual acts in some Hindu temples, in particular the Khajuraho Temples we could possibly have a reason as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In Hinduism Dharma, Artha, Kama, and Moksha are the four Purusharthas of a Hindu’s life and sex is an integral part of life,which is part of the four Purusharthas. The “Kama” means those activities, which give us pleasure and satisfaction. Sex is also one of those activities which gives great pleasure and satisfaction.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Kamasutra is very ancient book about sex, written by the Hindu sage Vatsayana. This book has all those details and descriptions about sex types, sex positions, sex importance and compatibility of partners, eunuchs etc. **The ancient Khajuraho Temple in Madhya Pradesh, India is well known for the sculptures on it.** Here the statues of men and women are depicted as having sex in different positions. The builders of the Khajuraho temple were Rajputs and were followers of Waam-maarga or left-handed Tantra, an acceptable way of attaining Moksha.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;**The sculptors created those pieces of arts is only outside the temple because it signifies that all those feelings must be left outside the temple, before entering the inner sanctum.** There are no such sculptures inside the temple. The sculptures are also on Konark temple’s exterior. It is a metaphysical symbolism. Hinduism recognizes the role of sexual desires in human lives.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;The sexual depictions in some of the temples were mean to not only educate the people, but also to help those who were involved in sexual sadhanas for enlightenment. There is a difference between nudity and expression of beauty and pornography.What appears in Hindu puranas and Itihasas are the expressions of genuine beauty and not pornography.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;The carving of such bold sculptors denotes the free thinking creative minority existing in India at that time.This also signifies that Scythians, Huns, and Kushans assimilation in Hindu society was complete by then.  **The freeness of the society towards discussing sex empirically and scientifically reveals about the overall openness of the culture.** - [Sex and Hinduism][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is a video which shows many of the sexual or erotic art works in question: [KHAJURAHO THE TEMPLE OF LOVE (YouTube)][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khajuraho_Group_of_Monuments&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://myauraiya.wordpress.com/2012/07/17/sex-and-hinduism-hindus-hinduism-sex-before-marriage-hindu-views-about-sex/comment-page-1/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa-SPkOoBIU" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9458" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2258" RevisionGUID="57d3f985-cc4d-4442-9f4c-21379b630dcb" CreationDate="2017-01-13T00:52:45.817" UserId="2892" Comment="Added the specific Greek words used in the Aesop stories, and further explicated the idea of woman as vessel in Ancient Greek thought per the Aeschylus passage in the Orestia" Text="You will find Theoi to be quite useful as Pandora is a covered topic and it aggregates a variety of the Pandora myth in the Classical cannon: [Pandora](http://www.theoi.com/Heroine/Pandora.html).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's important to note that there is not a single &quot;Pandora&quot; story, but a series of stories and variations, beginning with Hesiod and Homer in about the 8th Century BCE up to about the 5th Century CE.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - What the specific &quot;evils&quot; are depends to some extent on the source, and even when specified, it is still pretty general.  Hesiod, in [Works and Days](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_and_Days), specifically mentions plague and disease, but also suggests that before the event, mankind was not subject to vices (one meaning of *[kakoi](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ka%2Fkh&amp;la=greek&amp;can=ka%2Fkh0#lexicon)* which is a general term for bad) or hard labor *([ponoi](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=po%2Fnoio&amp;la=greek&amp;can=po%2Fnoio0&amp;prior=xalepoi=o&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0131:card=83&amp;i=1)*—in Ancient Greek this word for toil is also used to mean suffering and distress) or *[nosoi](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=nou%2Fswn&amp;la=greek&amp;can=nou%2Fswn0&amp;prior=po/noio&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0131:card=83&amp;i=1#lexicon)* (which means illnesses). However Hesiod describes it differently in his [Theogony](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theogony) where he rather [misogynistically](http://www.dictionary.com/browse/misogynistic) suggests women themselves to be the source of many evils, a parallel to interpretations of [Eve](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eve) as the source of the fall of mankind in the Old Testament.  *[Hesiod's outlook was no doubt influenced by his own unhappy experiences.]* &#xD;&#xA; - Aesop, in contrast, presents a story in which the vessel is filled with &quot;all good things&quot; (which is one meaning of Pandora's name, in the sense that &quot;gifts&quot; are seen as good things.) [Homer, in the Iliad, Book 24](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D24%3Acard%3D507), which is a similar account to Aesop's, uses *[doron](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=dw%3Dron&amp;la=greek&amp;can=dw%3Dron0)* which is the specific part of Pandora's name meaning &quot;gifts&quot;, but Aesop, for the most part, as seen here in the [Chambry version of one of his stories](http://mythfolklore.net/aesopica/chambry/1.htm) uses *[agatha](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29gaqo%2Fn&amp;la=greek&amp;can=a%29gaqo%2Fn1&amp;prior=polukoirani/h)* which simply means &quot;good&quot;.  Interestingly, the [Babrius version of the other Aesop story](http://mythfolklore.net/aesopica/babrius/58.htm) initially uses what could be loosely anglicized as *[krhesta](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=xrhsto%2Fs&amp;la=greek&amp;can=xrhsto%2Fs0&amp;prior=*xrhstos#lexicon)* (χρηστὰ) which means &quot;useful&quot; and can, in some cases, carry a moral dimension. However the only good thing actually specified is [Elpis](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29lp-i%2Fs&amp;la=greek&amp;can=e%29lp-i%2Fs0) which means hope.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's worth considering the etymology of the names of the major players: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pandora is variously interpreted but is formed by the prefix *pan* meaning &quot;all&quot; and *doron* for gifts.  Thus something like &quot;All Giving&quot; is quite acceptable as an alternative to the idea of her name as &quot;All Gifts&quot;.  An implication of All Giving is that this includes the bad as well as the good, a theme intimately tied with the [Prometheus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus) cycle.  Specifically, Prometheus brings fire to mankind.  Fire warms but can also burn.  This may be taken as a metaphor for the dual benefits and dangers of technology, but at a deeper level may be about the binary nature of things.  There is an idea that without misfortune there is no motivation for hope. (i.e. how does one define good without the opposite of good to contrast it with?) Hesiod makes Prometheus' gift of fire to mankind the incitement for Zeus' subsequent punishment of mankind through Pandora. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Epimetheus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epimetheus_(mythology)) is likewise a combination of an ancient Greek prefix meaning &quot;before&quot; and a word for thought.  Thus his name is understood as &quot;Hindsight&quot; in contrast to his wise brother Prometheus (&quot;forethought&quot;).  Epimetheus, who is an important agent in the Pandora cycle, represents the folly of mankind, as in &quot;hindsight is 20/20&quot; or &quot;whoops!&quot;--his wiser brother strongly cautions him against accepting any gifts from Zeus. Epimetheus' involvement can be related to Adam in the Old Testament who is only able to realize his mistake *after* he eats the fruit and achieves knowledge. This is, again, a dual blessing and curse, carrying the irony that it is only with consciousness, the knowledge of good and evil, that one is able to be aware of the experience of suffering.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, the use of &quot;box&quot; is a modern translation.  Hesiod, where the story originates, in his [Works and Days](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0132%3Acard%3D83) uses the word *[pithou](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pi%2Fqos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=pi%2Fqos0#lexicon)* [a form of the noun πίθος, which refers to a large jar, typically for wine but also for oil, which is a lubricant and suggest a metaphoric component to the idea of the famous &quot;box&quot;. This is consistent with Hesiod's idea of women as a source of evil in the Theogony, **where it is notable there is *no mention* of a &quot;box&quot; or other vessel**, save Pandora herself, who is there noted to be the mother of the race of woman. The idea of woman as mere vessel is later explicated in [Apollo's arguments](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0006%3Acard%3D640) at Orestes' trial in [The Eumenides](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oresteia#The_Eumenides) (lines 657-666).]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*I'd highly recommend taking a look at [Pandora's Box: The Changing Aspects of a Mythical Symbol](http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/52753.Pandora_s_Box) by Dora and Erwin Panofsky for an excellent exploration of both the Pandora myth, and myths about the Pandora myth.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9459" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2270" RevisionGUID="5d2f7dc1-1fcc-4a2c-820a-91f9a46ae121" CreationDate="2017-01-13T00:56:21.393" UserId="2892" Text="The Greeks and Romans seem to have had something of an obsession with chaste goddesses, which seems somewhat counter to pagan traditions in general.  Who are some chaste goddesses *not* from Greek or Roman mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9460" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2270" RevisionGUID="5d2f7dc1-1fcc-4a2c-820a-91f9a46ae121" CreationDate="2017-01-13T00:56:21.393" UserId="2892" Text="Virgin goddesses outside of the Greek and Roman traditions?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9461" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2270" RevisionGUID="5d2f7dc1-1fcc-4a2c-820a-91f9a46ae121" CreationDate="2017-01-13T00:56:21.393" UserId="2892" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9462" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2270" RevisionGUID="e3e6233b-26d0-4d7a-a881-a4c2ce5696b3" CreationDate="2017-01-13T01:48:10.893" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|maiden-goddesses|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9464" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2272" RevisionGUID="fcb8bf76-a791-43e0-96f7-6db8a1fc96d6" CreationDate="2017-01-13T14:09:58.687" UserId="3348" Text="Well, christianity is kinda famous for being considered non-pagan (at least by christians) and Mary being chaste. She is not technically a goddess, but is a mother to their God. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9466" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2034" RevisionGUID="609bdf64-7aa0-4c04-a818-25d81ba25039" CreationDate="2017-01-13T16:24:01.867" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="9467" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2273" RevisionGUID="a88b704d-b45c-4f8b-9373-a3d28383c5f1" CreationDate="2017-01-13T16:40:03.183" UserId="1241" Text="The [Kumari The Virgin Goddess][1] should be a plausible answer to your question! Whether this is a good fit here, it does remain interesting.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The ancient practice of Kumari worship is vigorously alive today, deep in Nepal's Kathmandu Valley. A young virgin girl, Kumari, is selected as the embodiment of Goddess Taleju. A Kumari's dharma is to serve and bless the people. Her brief reign is a time of discipline and personal sacrifice.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Among the most ancient of Hindu practices, Kumari puja (virgin worship) dates back at least 2,300 years to the late Vedic period. - [Nepal's Virgin Goddesses][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Kumari, according to the Wikipedia article is a real living virgin goddess:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Kumari, or Kumari Devi, or Living Goddess – Nepal is the tradition of worshipping young pre-pubescent girls as manifestations of the divine female energy or devi in Hindu religious traditions. The word Kumari is derived from the Sanskrit Kaumarya, meaning &quot;princess&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;In Nepal, a Kumari is a pre-pubescent girl selected from the Shakya caste or Bajracharya clan of the Nepalese Newari community. The Kumari is revered and worshiped by some of the country's Hindus as well as the Nepali Buddhists, though not the Tibetan Buddhists. While there are several Kumaris throughout Nepal, with some cities having several, the best known is the Royal Kumari of Kathmandu, and she lives in the Kumari Ghar, a palace in the center of the city. The selection process for her is especially rigorous. As of 2010, the Royal Kumari was Matina Shakya, aged four, installed in October 2008 by the Maoist government that replaced the monarchy. Unika Bajracharya, selected in April 2014 as the Kumari of Patan, is the second most important living goddess.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;In Nepal a Kumari is generally chosen for one day and worshipped accordingly on certain festivals like Navaratri or Durga Puja. In Kathmandu Valley this is a particularly prevalent practice.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;In Nepal, **a Kumari is believed to be the incarnation of Taleju**. When her first menstruation begins, it is believed that the goddess vacates her body. Serious illness or a major loss of blood from an injury are also causes for loss of deity. - [Kumari (goddess)][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Samita Bajracharya ][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Samita Bajracharya is a 12-year-old Nepalese girl who lives with her family, studies hard, and enjoys playing a Nepali version of the lute. But until recently she was also worshipped by people who believed she was a reincarnated goddess. - [Nepal's living goddess who still has to do homework][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.exoticindiaart.com/book/details/kumari-virgin-goddess-IDC940/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=4891&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumari_(goddess)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Ra1rc.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27885141" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9468" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2270" RevisionGUID="ca3d4a82-e7d5-4533-85ff-1e8b93a7061b" CreationDate="2017-01-13T17:18:53.183" UserId="2892" Comment="clarified the question based on Ken Grahams point" Text="The Greeks and Romans seem to have had something of an obsession with virgin goddesses, which seems somewhat counter to pagan traditions in general.  Who are some virgin goddesses *not* from Greek or Roman mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9469" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2242" RevisionGUID="2cbc5256-2dba-44b4-9708-0f0da236da76" CreationDate="2017-01-13T17:22:16.130" UserId="2892" Comment="Added a note and link to the &quot;Where and What&quot; are Atlantis thread" Text="I'll start out by noting that Amazons come from Greek mythology but the character known as Wonder Woman is a modern invention, inspired by, but not present in the Classical canon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first clue is her name, Diana.  Diana was the Roman name for the Greek goddess Artemis, famous for her archery skills.  **Key point: Diana is not an Ancient Greek name.**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Wikipedia has a very comprehensive list of actual names of Amazon warriors](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazons#Lists) from mythology. You'll see names like Deianeira and Dioxippe, but not Diana.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although Wonder Woman is a modern invention, the legends of the [Amazons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazons) do derive from actual Greek mythology.  The most famous Amazons are surely [Penthesilea](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penthesilea) and her sister, [Hippolyta](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippolyta_(DC_Comics)), who took [Theseus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theseus) as her husband. (As a Wonder Woman fan, you will know that her mother is named for this actual, mythological figure.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Themiscyra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Themiscyra_(Pontus)) does feature in the ancient Greek histories as a legendary town of the Amazons as early as the 5th century BCE.  (The Greek histories are entwined with the mythological canon in that the mythical origins of places are often discussed.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Themiscyra is not associated with Atlantis in the greater Classical canon**, although there is a similarity in that Themiscyra's location is a subject of some dispute.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding [Atlantis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantis), it also dates from the Classical period, although it is not a location of mythological stories per se, but first appears in [Plato](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_(Plato)) as part of an allegory on national [hubris](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no evidence that Atlantis was anything other than an invention of Plato, although many have speculated to the contrary. For instance, the island of [Thera](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santorini) is often put forth as an actual location.  Thera was famously subject to [a massive volcanic eruption](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_eruption) and subsequent submersion of most of the island under the sea.  It's also worth noting that Minoan civilization was a pre-cursor of Greek civilization--an advanced culture based on an island dominating the region--so the idea of an Atlantis may also be related to the impact of Minoan hegemony in the ancient Greek cultural consciousness.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact, the famous mythological Amazon [Hippolyta is linked to Theseus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippolyta#The_Ninth_Labour_of_Heracles), and Theseus is linked to Minoan Crete through the story of the [Minotaur](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minotaur#Theseus_and_the_Minotaur). The tribute of &#xD;&#xA;the Athenian youths to be devoured by the Minotaur is an example of the former domination of the Minoans over the Greek tribes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, **no, Atlantis is not a location that figures in the formal canon of Classical Mythology, but has subsequently been widely mythologized.**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can find an additional discussion on the location and nature of Atlantis [here](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1603/in-mythology-where-and-what-was-atlantis)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9470" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2240" RevisionGUID="1d30bee3-a50a-4844-9af2-6b983874e68d" CreationDate="2017-01-13T17:24:43.370" UserId="2892" Comment="Figure we might as well use Wonder Woman in the title since it doesn't change the nature of the question, but could bring us more traffic and hopefully introduce interested people to the site per related questions such as on Atlantis" Text="Does anyone have any real proof not from comics or movies that Diana of Themyscira is an actual figure from mythology?  How does Atlantis relate to this?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;______________&#xD;&#xA;For background, [Diana of Themyscira](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonder_Woman) is name of the modern superhero, Wonder Woman.  In the comic books, [Themyscira](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Themyscira_(DC_Comics)) is the capital of the Amazons, and depicted as a mysterious island with a hidden location, similar to Atlantis.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9471" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2240" RevisionGUID="1d30bee3-a50a-4844-9af2-6b983874e68d" CreationDate="2017-01-13T17:24:43.370" UserId="2892" Comment="Figure we might as well use Wonder Woman in the title since it doesn't change the nature of the question, but could bring us more traffic and hopefully introduce interested people to the site per related questions such as on Atlantis" Text="How is Wonder Woman related to the Amazons of Greek Mythology and Atlantis?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9472" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2274" RevisionGUID="c51a54b8-43fb-4286-9369-b70b8d11d2b1" CreationDate="2017-01-13T18:02:12.533" UserId="2892" Text="Failing that, is she based on or similar to any characters in folklore of the region?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as I know, the extraordinarily compelling children's character was purely an invention of the author, [Astrid Lindgren](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrid_Lindgren), but the giantesses in Norse Mythology, for instance, could be seen as a precedent for [Pippi's incredible strength](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pippi_Longstocking#Strength) which so impressed and delighted me as a child.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9473" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2274" RevisionGUID="c51a54b8-43fb-4286-9369-b70b8d11d2b1" CreationDate="2017-01-13T18:02:12.533" UserId="2892" Text="Does Pippi Longstocking have mythological roots?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9474" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2274" RevisionGUID="c51a54b8-43fb-4286-9369-b70b8d11d2b1" CreationDate="2017-01-13T18:02:12.533" UserId="2892" Text="|norse|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9475" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2275" RevisionGUID="b542272d-b775-4b39-9dba-fbfb8409b895" CreationDate="2017-01-13T18:13:34.670" UserId="2892" Text="For instance, I recall them being mentioned as the sources of rivers.  I'd be interested in more detail on this aspect, as well as any other functions of female *jötnar*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Wikipedia covers this to some degree, but I'm looking for more detailed explanation and analysis, as well as elements absent from the Wikipedia page on the *[Jötunn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6tunn)*, and appearances in folklore outside of the Eddas.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9476" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2275" RevisionGUID="b542272d-b775-4b39-9dba-fbfb8409b895" CreationDate="2017-01-13T18:13:34.670" UserId="2892" Text="What are the functions of Giantesses in the Norse Mythology and Folklore?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9477" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2275" RevisionGUID="b542272d-b775-4b39-9dba-fbfb8409b895" CreationDate="2017-01-13T18:13:34.670" UserId="2892" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9478" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2276" RevisionGUID="7a77f68a-3dd0-4b72-aa91-c57e0586299c" CreationDate="2017-01-13T18:19:26.203" UserId="2892" Text="Everyone knows that [Diana](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana_(mythology)), as well as her Greek parallel [Artemis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemis), are hunter goddesses, but few seem to know why.  From where does this association originate?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9479" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2276" RevisionGUID="7a77f68a-3dd0-4b72-aa91-c57e0586299c" CreationDate="2017-01-13T18:19:26.203" UserId="2892" Text="Why is Diana a Huntress?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9480" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2276" RevisionGUID="7a77f68a-3dd0-4b72-aa91-c57e0586299c" CreationDate="2017-01-13T18:19:26.203" UserId="2892" Text="|greek|comparative|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9481" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2277" RevisionGUID="a89f15a9-1345-45aa-9945-c8f3426a8900" CreationDate="2017-01-13T18:35:19.427" UserId="2892" Text="It is 100% supportable that the &quot;box&quot; represents the womb in [Hesiod's version of the myth from his Theogony](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D545).  In brief:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In the Theogony, Hesiod never mentions any vessel save Pandora herself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Pandora is cast as the mother of the &quot;race of women&quot; who were created to vex men (i.e. they are the source of evil named by Hesiod in the Theogony.)    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In other versions of the myth, no &quot;box&quot; is mentioned, but instead a *[pithou](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pi%2Fqos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=pi%2Fqos0#lexicon)* meaning &quot;jar&quot; for wine or oil.  (If wine, it could represent blood, and oil is a lubricant.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The idea of woman as vessel is a major point in Apollo's notorious arguments in Orestes' defense in [The Eumenides](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oresteia#The_Eumenides), demonstrating the existence of this concept in Ancient Greek thought.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can find a more detailed explanation of this element of the myth [here](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2251/what-is-the-good-and-the-evil-in-the-pandoras-box-story), as well as a discussion of the possible meaning in Aesop and Hesiod.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9482" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1673" RevisionGUID="7e67af42-c023-4738-b8ec-29048690ed8a" CreationDate="2017-01-13T18:54:21.557" UserId="2892" Comment="Added wikia links to the Greek words for the specific &quot;things&quot; asked about, and a note on translation in general as related to these words specifically.  Also italicized the Greek words to make them distinct from the English." Text="&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Keres.html&quot;&gt;Theoi&lt;/a&gt; suggests that the overall name for the evil spirits might be Keres:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Keres may have been the evil spirits released from Pandora's jar to plague mankind. Hesiod mentions them indirectly in his account of the episode. He describes these spirits as ***[kakoi](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%B1%CE%BA%CF%8C%CF%82)*** (evils), ***[nosoi](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BD%CF%8C%CF%83%CE%BF%CF%82)*** (sicknesses and plagues) and ***[lugra](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BB%CF%85%CE%B3%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%82)*** (banes).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They are mentioned both above and within the passage Yannis cites:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;For ere this [the opening of Pandora's jar] the tribes of men lived on earth remote and free from ills (***kakoi***) and hard toil (***ponoi***) and heavy sickness (***nosoi***) which bring the ***Keres*** (Fates) upon men; for in misery men grow old quickly. But the woman took off the great lid of the jar (*pithos*) with her hands and scattered all these and her thought caused sorrow and mischief to men. Only ***[Elpis](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%90%CE%BB%CF%80%CE%AF%CF%82)*** (Hope) remained there in an unbreakable home within under the rim of the great jar, and did not fly out at the door; for ere that, the lid of the jar stopped her, by the will of Aigis-holding Zeus who gathers the clouds. But the rest, countless plagues (***lugra***), wander amongst men; for earth is full of evils and the sea is full. Of themselves diseases (*nosoi*) come upon men continually by day and by night, bringing mischief to mortals silently; for wise Zeus took away speech from them. So is there no way to escape the will of Zeus.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that this is a fair degree of leeway in translating *kakoi*, *nosoi*, *ponoi* and *lugra*, thus no single translation is definitive.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9483" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2278" RevisionGUID="817b8b2c-f2e6-4357-933c-e39b08dee8b6" CreationDate="2017-01-13T19:22:43.883" UserId="2892" Text="This is indeed confusingly presented but the implication is that Hope did not escape (&quot;fly out the door&quot;).  One of the Aesop versions may clarify somewhat:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt; &quot;Zeus gathered all the useful things together in a jar and put a lid on it. He then left the jar in human hands. But man had no self-control and he wanted to know what was in that jar, so he pushed the lid aside, letting those things go back to the abode of the gods. So all the good things flew away, soaring high above the earth, and Elpis (Hope) was the only thing left. When the lid was put back on the jar, Elpis (Hope) was kept inside. That is why Elpis (Hope) alone is still found among the people, promising that she will bestow on each of us the good things that have gone away.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Aesop, Fables 526 (from Babrius 58) (trans. Gibbs) (Greek fable C6th B.C.)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9484" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2258" RevisionGUID="ee0ebf27-1029-4a8a-bed9-0b8f6b6c4dd3" CreationDate="2017-01-13T19:42:48.503" UserId="2892" Comment="Added in the terms used by Theognis" Text="You will find Theoi to be quite useful as Pandora is a covered topic and it aggregates a variety of the Pandora myth in the Classical cannon: [Pandora](http://www.theoi.com/Heroine/Pandora.html).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's important to note that there is not a single &quot;Pandora&quot; story, but a series of stories and variations, beginning with Hesiod and Homer in about the 8th Century BCE up to about the 5th Century CE.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - What the specific &quot;evils&quot; are depends to some extent on the source, and even when specified, it is still pretty general.  Hesiod, in [Works and Days](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_and_Days), specifically mentions plague and disease, but also suggests that before the event, mankind was not subject to vices (one meaning of *[kakoi](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ka%2Fkh&amp;la=greek&amp;can=ka%2Fkh0#lexicon)* which is a general term for bad) or hard labor *([ponoi](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=po%2Fnoio&amp;la=greek&amp;can=po%2Fnoio0&amp;prior=xalepoi=o&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0131:card=83&amp;i=1)*—in Ancient Greek this word for toil is also used to mean suffering and distress) or *[nosoi](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=nou%2Fswn&amp;la=greek&amp;can=nou%2Fswn0&amp;prior=po/noio&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0131:card=83&amp;i=1#lexicon)* (which means illnesses). However Hesiod describes it differently in his [Theogony](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theogony) where he rather [misogynistically](http://www.dictionary.com/browse/misogynistic) suggests women themselves to be the source of many evils, a parallel to interpretations of [Eve](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eve) as the source of the fall of mankind in the Old Testament.  *[Hesiod's outlook was no doubt influenced by his own unhappy experiences.]* &#xD;&#xA; - Aesop, in contrast, presents a story in which the vessel is filled with &quot;all good things&quot; (which is one meaning of Pandora's name, in the sense that &quot;gifts&quot; are seen as good things.) [Homer, in the Iliad, Book 24](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D24%3Acard%3D507), which is a similar account to Aesop's, uses *[doron](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=dw%3Dron&amp;la=greek&amp;can=dw%3Dron0)* which is the specific part of Pandora's name meaning &quot;gifts&quot;, but Aesop, for the most part, as seen here in the [Chambry version of one of his stories](http://mythfolklore.net/aesopica/chambry/1.htm) uses *[agatha](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29gaqo%2Fn&amp;la=greek&amp;can=a%29gaqo%2Fn1&amp;prior=polukoirani/h)* which simply means &quot;good&quot;.  Interestingly, the [Babrius version of the other Aesop story](http://mythfolklore.net/aesopica/babrius/58.htm) initially uses what could be loosely anglicized as *[krhesta](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=xrhsto%2Fs&amp;la=greek&amp;can=xrhsto%2Fs0&amp;prior=*xrhstos#lexicon)* (χρηστὰ) which means &quot;useful&quot; and can, in some cases, carry a moral dimension. However the only good thing actually specified is [Elpis](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29lp-i%2Fs&amp;la=greek&amp;can=e%29lp-i%2Fs0) which means hope.  &#xD;&#xA; - [Theognis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theognis_of_Megara) is more specific in regard to the good things.  The poet specifically mentions *[Pistis](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=*pi%2Fstis&amp;la=greek&amp;can=*pi%2Fstis0&amp;prior=me\n&amp;d=Perseus:text:2008.01.0477:volume=1:text=11:section=2&amp;i=1)* (Trust), [*sophrosyne*](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=swfrosu%2Fnh&amp;la=greek&amp;can=swfrosu%2Fnh0) (moderation), and the *[Kharites](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=*xa%2Frites&amp;la=greek&amp;can=*xa%2Frites0&amp;prior=*xa/rissin#lexicon)* (the Graces).  Although Pandora's name never comes up in this fragment, these boons are mentioned in relation to *Elpis* so it is clearly a commentary on the Pandora story. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's worth considering the etymology of the names of the major players: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pandora is variously interpreted but is formed by the prefix *pan* meaning &quot;all&quot; and *doron* for gifts.  Thus something like &quot;All Giving&quot; is quite acceptable as an alternative to the idea of her name as &quot;All Gifts&quot;.  An implication of All Giving is that this includes the bad as well as the good, a theme intimately tied with the [Prometheus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus) cycle.  Specifically, Prometheus brings fire to mankind.  Fire warms but can also burn.  This may be taken as a metaphor for the dual benefits and dangers of technology, but at a deeper level may be about the binary nature of things.  There is an idea that without misfortune there is no motivation for hope. (i.e. how does one define good without the opposite of good to contrast it with?) Hesiod makes Prometheus' gift of fire to mankind the incitement for Zeus' subsequent punishment of mankind through Pandora. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Epimetheus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epimetheus_(mythology)) is likewise a combination of an ancient Greek prefix meaning &quot;before&quot; and a word for thought.  Thus his name is understood as &quot;Hindsight&quot; in contrast to his wise brother Prometheus (&quot;forethought&quot;).  Epimetheus, who is an important agent in the Pandora cycle, represents the folly of mankind, as in &quot;hindsight is 20/20&quot; or &quot;whoops!&quot;--his wiser brother strongly cautions him against accepting any gifts from Zeus. Epimetheus' involvement can be related to Adam in the Old Testament who is only able to realize his mistake *after* he eats the fruit and achieves knowledge. This is, again, a dual blessing and curse, carrying the irony that it is only with consciousness, the knowledge of good and evil, that one is able to be aware of the experience of suffering.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, the use of &quot;box&quot; is a modern translation.  Hesiod, where the story originates, in his [Works and Days](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0132%3Acard%3D83) uses the word *[pithou](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pi%2Fqos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=pi%2Fqos0#lexicon)* [a form of the noun πίθος, which refers to a large jar, typically for wine but also for oil, which is a lubricant and suggest a metaphoric component to the idea of the famous &quot;box&quot;. This is consistent with Hesiod's idea of women as a source of evil in the Theogony, **where it is notable there is *no mention* of a &quot;box&quot; or other vessel**, save Pandora herself, who is there noted to be the mother of the race of woman. The idea of woman as mere vessel is later explicated in [Apollo's arguments](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0006%3Acard%3D640) at Orestes' trial in [The Eumenides](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oresteia#The_Eumenides) (lines 657-666).]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*I'd highly recommend taking a look at [Pandora's Box: The Changing Aspects of a Mythical Symbol](http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/52753.Pandora_s_Box) by Dora and Erwin Panofsky for an excellent exploration of both the Pandora myth, and myths about the Pandora myth.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9485" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2279" RevisionGUID="43f0defc-8cab-42c9-bf5e-8c34811e2ca9" CreationDate="2017-01-13T20:47:05.627" UserId="666" Text="Jotuns in general served as a sort of the Other for the gods: a group that they used to define themselves by contrast. Female Jotuns were in some senses even more so.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is a list of different roles that you could find Jotun women in in myths:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Mothers of gods. Almost all major Aesir were born of Jotun women (the only exception I can think of which plays any major role is Baldur).&#xD;&#xA; 2. Dangerous disturbers of the established order. One of the stranger parts of the *Völuspá* is the eight verse, which describes the end of the paradisical past of the gods. The &quot;three maidens&quot; have been suggested to be the Norns, but there is really nothing that can prove this conjecture. The passages following tell how the Gods created dwarves and humans, so this was apparently a huge deal somehow.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In their dwellings at peace | they played at tables, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Of gold no lack | did the gods then know,--&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Till thither came | up giant-maids three,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Huge of might, | out of Jotunheim.  (quoted from [here][1])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 3. Antagonists in stories. You quote them as &quot;sources of rivers&quot;. This seems to be the story of how Thor travelled to Geirröd in *Þórsdrápa* and *Skáldskaparmál*. On his way, Geirröd sent his daughters Gjálp and Greip to stop Thor. One attempt was by pissing into a river so it overflowed and made it difficult to stop. (Eventually, Thor killed them both)&#xD;&#xA; 4. Helpers. In the same story as above, Thor starts by visiting the Giantess Grid which gives him weapons to use (Thor had had to leave his hammer and Belt of strength at home).&#xD;&#xA; 5. Avenging daughters. Skadi wanted to avenge her father Thjazi, and went to the gods for reparations (*Skáldskaparmál*).&#xD;&#xA; 6. Goddesses. Skadi is again the major example, she is according to *Gylfaginning* called &quot;Öndurguð&quot; and &quot;Öndurdís&quot;. &quot;Öndur&quot; means &quot;skis&quot;, &quot;guð&quot; is &quot;god&quot;, and &quot;dis&quot; is an sort of minor goddes (Freya is also sometimes called &quot;Vanadis&quot;)&#xD;&#xA; 7. Potential wives. Apart form Skadi, there is also the story of how Frey lusted after the giantess Gerðr, and sent the messenger Skrinir to woo her(*Skírnismá* and *Gylfaginning*).&#xD;&#xA; 8. Beings of supernatural strength. At Balder's funeral, the gods could not made the ship he was to be burnt in to leave the shore, until the giantess Hyrrokkin appeared and launched it -- (*Gylfaginning*).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most of these aspects are discussed by Margaret Clunies Ross in *Prolonged Echoes*. It would be too long to try to expand on each of them, but one of her main arguments is how the Norse myths depicts a society where the Aesir have tried to distance themselves from their giant ancestors, while the giants themselves would like to be put on more equal terms. One of the results of this order is how the Aesir are never married to giant women; it is OK for Vanir like Frey and Njord to marry them, but not Aesir, and the Vanir's marriages do not end well. The Aesir also often uses giantess women when they need children quickly for some tasks, and they have no qualms to seduce and abandon them when they act as guardians of something (a.g. how Odin stole the scaldic mead as told in *Skáldskaparmál*).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe03.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9486" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2280" RevisionGUID="280e4e40-5b61-4a7d-9882-ab4de6a26cb9" CreationDate="2017-01-13T21:25:04.007" UserId="666" Text="Explicitly, no.&#xD;&#xA;---------------&#xD;&#xA;(I will have to start by apologising, as I will only quote sources in Swedish for this).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Vivi Edström, in *Vildtoring och lägereld*, analyses several of Lindgren's books. A lot of space is given to Pippi. The part that comes closest to the question is just one sentence: &quot;That a child is stronger than an adult is a motif from myth&quot;, but she also notes how Pippi is really not a mythical type of character.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Furthermore, she notes how Pippi in her first incarnation (a manuscript that was submitted but not selected for publishing) was mainly an absurd figure, and how the story was filled with nonsense verse, paroding Swedish culture. Pippi's strength, and use of it for good, was more developed in the revision. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A few other aspects we have more sure sources for. [The official page for Lindgren][1] notes some inspirations: her red hair and freckles came from a classmate of Astrid's daughter Karin (whom she first told the story to). A young girl living alone in a house with a horse on the veranda was apparently a feature of Furusund, where Lindgren spent summers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another big inspiration for Pippi was Anne of Green Gables. This is also noted by Edström, and further [here][2]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I will have to finish by saying that, analysing Lindgren's books for influences in general is often very rewarding. There are pieces from classic Swedish Romantic poetry, folklore, Shakespeare, and everything in between, and that is just the fantasy books. Norse mythology is however, at best a minor influence: the fantasy stories are more oriented towards medieval ideas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.astridlindgren.se/karaktarerna/pippi-langstrump&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.svd.se/villa-villekulla-ett-omstortat-gronkulla" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9487" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2281" RevisionGUID="2e051b55-5f3f-48b9-9bd3-6020a2e25319" CreationDate="2017-01-13T21:54:30.347" UserId="57" Text="In the first ten chapters of the of the Saga of the Volsungs, Odin strongly favors the eponymous clan. In chapter 11, however, the Allfather sides with King Lyngi and attacks Sigmund, shattering the same sword he had gifted Volsung's son earlier in the saga: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But now whenas the battle had dured a while, there came a man into the fight clad in a blue cloak, and with a slouched hat on his head, one-eyed he was, and bare a bill in his hand; and he came against Sigmund the King, and have up his bill against him, and as Sigmund smote fiercely with the sword it fell upon the bill and burst asunder in the midst: thenceforth the slaughter and dismay turned to his side, for the good-hap of King Sigmund had departed from him, and his men fell fast about him; naught did the king spare himself, but the rather cheered on his men; but even as the saw says, &quot;No might 'gainst many&quot;, so was it now proven; and in this fight fell Sigmund the King, and King Eylimi, his father-in-law, in the fore-front of their battle, and therewith the more part of their folk.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Story of the Volsungs, translated by William Morris and Eirikr Magnusson&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why the sudden change of heart?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9488" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2281" RevisionGUID="2e051b55-5f3f-48b9-9bd3-6020a2e25319" CreationDate="2017-01-13T21:54:30.347" UserId="57" Text="Why did Odin forsake Sigmund?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9489" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2281" RevisionGUID="2e051b55-5f3f-48b9-9bd3-6020a2e25319" CreationDate="2017-01-13T21:54:30.347" UserId="57" Text="|norse|odin|volsunga|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9490" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2282" RevisionGUID="582600ae-bdaf-4f4d-9bb2-aee29e044c87" CreationDate="2017-01-14T04:57:03.100" UserId="3350" Text="Chapter 3 of the Volsungs Saga:&#xA;&gt; The tale tells that great fires were made endlong the hall, and the great tree aforesaid stood midmost thereof, withal folk say that, whenas men sat by the fires in the evening, a certain man came into the hall unknown of aspect to all men; and suchlike array he had, that over him was a spotted cloak, and he was bare-foot, and had linen-breeches knit tight even unto the bone, and he had a sword in his hand as he went up to the Branstock, and a slouched hat upon his head: huge he was, and seeming-ancient, and one-eyed. So he drew his sword and smote it into the tree-trunk so that it sank in up to the hilts; and all held back from greeting the man. Then he took up the word, and said-- &quot;Whoso draweth this sword from this stock, shall have the same as a gift from me, and shall find in good sooth(truth) that never bare he better sword in hand than is this.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;Odin had originally traveled in disguise and stuck the sword into the tree himself. After many others tried, Sigmund was the only one to be able to pull the sword from the tree. &#xA;&#xA;In Chapter 11 &#xA;&gt; Now was that battle fierce and fell, and though Sigmund were old, yet most hardily he fought, and was ever the foremost of his men; no shield or byrny might hold against him, and he went ever through the ranks of his foemen on that day, and no man might see how things would fare between them; many an arrow and many a spear was aloft in air that day, and so his spae-wrights wrought for him that he got no wound, and none can tell over the tale of those who fell before him, and both his arms were red with blood, even to the shoulders.&#xA;&#xA;Odin is coming to take the sword back to give it to someone else. Sigmund attacks Odin and Odin deals him a mortal blow. It's vague to mention whether Sigmund knew it was Odin or not. Although Odin being in disguise might suggest that Sigmund had no idea. It's been suggested however that Odin viewed him as a coward and wasn't entering battle, but was having many-a-men sacrificed in his battle to protect him.&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9491" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2282" RevisionGUID="d26ebaf1-42ea-40c2-a16a-d589f9cbcd60" CreationDate="2017-01-14T09:46:50.973" UserId="3350" Comment="added 149 characters in body" Text="Chapter 3 of the Volsungs Saga:&#xA;&gt; The tale tells that great fires were made endlong the hall, and the great tree aforesaid stood midmost thereof, withal folk say that, whenas men sat by the fires in the evening, a certain man came into the hall unknown of aspect to all men; and suchlike array he had, that over him was a spotted cloak, and he was bare-foot, and had linen-breeches knit tight even unto the bone, and he had a sword in his hand as he went up to the Branstock, and a slouched hat upon his head: huge he was, and seeming-ancient, and one-eyed. So he drew his sword and smote it into the tree-trunk so that it sank in up to the hilts; and all held back from greeting the man. Then he took up the word, and said-- &quot;Whoso draweth this sword from this stock, shall have the same as a gift from me, and shall find in good sooth(truth) that never bare he better sword in hand than is this.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;Odin had originally traveled in disguise and stuck the sword into the tree himself. After many others tried, Sigmund was the only one to be able to pull the sword from the tree. &#xA;&#xA;In Chapter 11 &#xA;&gt; Now was that battle fierce and fell, and though Sigmund were old, yet most hardily he fought, and was ever the foremost of his men; no shield or byrny might hold against him, and he went ever through the ranks of his foemen on that day, and no man might see how things would fare between them; many an arrow and many a spear was aloft in air that day, and so his spae-wrights wrought for him that he got no wound, and none can tell over the tale of those who fell before him, and both his arms were red with blood, even to the shoulders.&#xA;&#xA;Odin is coming to take the sword back to give it to someone else. Sigmund attacks Odin and Odin deals him a mortal blow. It's vague to mention whether Sigmund knew it was Odin or not. Although Odin being in disguise might suggest that Sigmund had no idea. It's been suggested however that Odin viewed him as a coward because Sigmund wasn't entering battle, but was having many-a-men sacrificed in his battle to protect him. There were certain values within their people's world-view that allowed you to gain or lose respect. Cowardice was taken very seriously.&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9493" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2283" RevisionGUID="06f5a007-4e3e-4ee3-93d8-8da6fdfe0ce6" CreationDate="2017-01-14T10:05:14.740" UserId="3350" Text="To answer your question we take a look at the context of the Ferryman outside of this specific instance. In Hárbarðsljóð: &quot;Hárbarðr&quot; is the name of the ferryman. Hárbarðr means &quot;Grey beard,&quot; and is another kenning for Odin. Hárbarðr repeatedly boasts of his conquests of giantesses, as does Odin in Havamal. While many scholars still may disagree on it, Hárbarðr is usually considered to be Odin. This is based on not only Odin's statement in Grimnismál 47 that Hárbarð is one of his by-names. But that Odin is notorious for disguising himself to interact with people of worth. &#xA;&#xA;If you read more on what William Morris has said, he cites in his translation: &quot;The man in the boat is Odin, doubtless.&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9494" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2284" RevisionGUID="384b208d-58aa-4946-8286-6c24f4120f5d" CreationDate="2017-01-14T10:07:58.427" UserId="3350" Text="**No**&#xA;Outside of the brief description of her, she is never given a name. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9495" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2285" RevisionGUID="e854c53c-06c2-4bbf-99f5-063181998df7" CreationDate="2017-01-14T10:51:21.637" UserId="3350" Text="**Not exactly**&#xA;&#xA;Flyting could be more closely related to &quot;roasting&quot; your friend. A man was measured by his intelligence. Whether he traveled and whether he could tell great tales of his travels. That is what a man was measured by. If he never left home he was &quot;unlearned&quot; and was a &quot;simple&quot; person. A good example of this is the Icelandic word Heimskur heim-skur ( home-ish ) was originally used for people that have never seen anything except how things are at home. It was not used over people that are not bright. Now in a modern sense the meaning has changed to mean &quot;stupid&quot;. This culture still believes that a home-body was a dumb uneducated person.&#xA;Flyting was considered a game and in good jest. But the men exchanging would really insult one another. Rap battles aren't usually in good spirits, at least not in 8-mile they weren't. Flyting is a battle of wits. There wasn't always music involved. It was the mental equivalent to an arm wrestling contest. &#xA;&#xA;Modern men do this in order to toughen each other up, both physically and emotionally. Because, if you can't take some good-natured ego jabs from your boy, how can you stand up to your true enemies? I'm sure the context hasn't really changed much!&#xA;&#xA;And in closing I'll leave you with this adage:&#xA;&#xA;&quot;Men socialise by insulting each other, but don't really mean it. While women socialise by complimenting each other, but don't really mean it&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9498" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2286" RevisionGUID="aea731cf-1fed-4261-9e5b-657c6550fdf2" CreationDate="2017-01-14T11:50:57.480" UserId="3350" Text="**Taking a look at a few things here.**&#xA;&#xA;The word Yggdrasil itself firstly. &quot;Ygg,&quot; means Death. &quot;Drasil&quot; is a Nordic term that has the dual meanings of both &quot;gallows&quot; and &quot;horse.&quot; So Yggdrasil itself means &quot;Deadly Gallows&quot;. A kenning for Odin was Ygg and was listed in the anonymous Skaldic Poem Óðins Nöfn. There are those that speculate that Yggdrasil gets its name from Odin's actions among its branches. It's meaning is quite clear in the context of the myth: &quot;Yggdrasil&quot; is both the gallows upon which Odin hung himself, and the mount that he rode on his journey through the nine worlds. &#xA;&#xA;It should also be noted that many different accounts speak of the &quot;atrocities&quot; of the Vikings and of their human sacrifices to Odin. These sacrifices were hung or strangled. As possible practice of Odinic sacrifice by strangling has some archeological support in the existence of bodies perfectly preserved by the acid of the Jutland peat-bogs. One of the most notable examples of this is the Bronze Age Tollund Man. However, we possess no written accounts that explicitly interpret the cause of these stranglings, which could have other explanations, such as being a form of capital punishment. Also worth mentioning in Gautreks saga, King Vikar is hanged with the words, ‘Now I give you to Odin’.&#xA;&#xA;Human sacrifice and stuff:&#xA;http://en.natmus.dk/historical-knowledge/denmark/prehistoric-period-until-1050-ad/the-viking-age/religion-magic-death-and-rituals/human-sacrifices/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9499" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2286" RevisionGUID="2680d77e-12a9-4d01-9575-6f5d6af44d6c" CreationDate="2017-01-14T13:01:08.773" UserId="3350" Comment="added 1340 characters in body" Text="**Taking a look at a few things here.**&#xA;&#xA;The word Yggdrasil itself firstly. &quot;Ygg,&quot; means Death. &quot;Drasil&quot; is a Nordic term that has the dual meanings of both &quot;gallows&quot; and &quot;horse.&quot; So Yggdrasil itself means &quot;Deadly Gallows&quot;. A kenning for Odin was Ygg and was listed in the anonymous Skaldic Poem Óðins Nöfn. There are those that speculate that Yggdrasil gets its name from Odin's actions among its branches. It's meaning is quite clear in the context of the myth: &quot;Yggdrasil&quot; is both the gallows upon which Odin hung himself, and the mount that he rode on his journey through the nine worlds. &#xA;&#xA;It should also be noted that many different accounts speak of the &quot;atrocities&quot; of the Northmen and of their human sacrifices to Odin. Human sacrifices happened from prehistoric to well into the 13th century. These sacrifices were hung or strangled. As possible practice of Odinic sacrifice by strangling has some archeological support in the existence of bodies perfectly preserved by the acid of the Jutland peat-bogs. One of the most notable examples of this is the Bronze Age Tollund Man. However, we possess no written accounts that explicitly interpret the cause of these stranglings, which could have other explanations, such as being a form of capital punishment. Also worth mentioning in Gautreks saga(no relation to Snorri), King Vikar is hanged with the words, ‘Now I give you to Odin’.&#xA;&#xA;**As @andejons said below I will add this:**&#xA;This depends on the translation/interpretation that you read. Each has a slight variation. The word Ygg/Yggr/Ugg/Uggr are the same word just with different meanings. As a title claimed by Odin Yggr in that context would mean &quot;Terrible One&quot;. Ugg/Uggr also meant fear or apprehension.&#xA;&#xA;Here is the excerpt from the Havamal with various translations:&#xA;&#xA;&gt;&quot;I ween that I hung | on the windy tree,&quot; &#xA;-Translation by H. A. Bellows&#xA;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Wounded I hung on a wind-swept gallows&quot;&#xA;-Translated by Auden and Taylor&#xA;&#xA;&gt;&quot;I trow I hung on that windy Tree&quot;&#xA;-Translated by Olive Bray&#xA;&#xA;&gt;&quot;I know that I hung, on a wind swept tree&quot;&#xA;-Translated by Chrisholm&#xA;&#xA;&gt;&quot;I wot that I hung on the wind-tossed tree&quot;&#xA;-Translated by Lee Hollander&#xA;&#xA;&gt;&quot;I know that I hung on a high windy tree&quot;&#xA;-Translated by Patricia Terry&#xA;&#xA;&gt;&quot;I know that I hung, on a wind-rocked tree,&quot;&#xA;-Translated by Benjamin Thorpe&#xA;&#xA;Just from the variety of these translations alone it's clear we don't have a precise answer. There is also the suggestion that wind-swept gallows/wind-swept tree was a kenning for Yggdrasil. A wind-swept gallows or tree would be dangerous to hang from as there is the risk of bodily harm is higher.&#xA;&#xA;Woo, that was a rollercoaster... lol&#xA;&#xA;Human sacrifice and stuff:&#xA;http://en.natmus.dk/historical-knowledge/denmark/prehistoric-period-until-1050-ad/the-viking-age/religion-magic-death-and-rituals/human-sacrifices/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9500" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2286" RevisionGUID="09e59252-6edb-4678-9383-e6f8f766d3fd" CreationDate="2017-01-14T13:06:54.333" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved formatting." Text="**Taking a look at a few things here.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The word Yggdrasil itself firstly. &quot;Ygg,&quot; means Death. &quot;Drasil&quot; is a Nordic term that has the dual meanings of both &quot;gallows&quot; and &quot;horse.&quot; So Yggdrasil itself means &quot;Deadly Gallows&quot;. A kenning for Odin was Ygg and was listed in the anonymous Skaldic Poem Óðins Nöfn. There are those that speculate that Yggdrasil gets its name from Odin's actions among its branches. It's meaning is quite clear in the context of the myth: &quot;Yggdrasil&quot; is both the gallows upon which Odin hung himself, and the mount that he rode on his journey through the nine worlds. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It should also be noted that many different accounts speak of the &quot;atrocities&quot; of the Northmen and of their human sacrifices to Odin. Human sacrifices happened from prehistoric to well into the 13th century. These sacrifices were hung or strangled. As possible practice of Odinic sacrifice by strangling has some archeological support in the existence of bodies perfectly preserved by the acid of the Jutland peat-bogs. One of the most notable examples of this is the Bronze Age Tollund Man. However, we possess no written accounts that explicitly interpret the cause of these stranglings, which could have other explanations, such as being a form of capital punishment. Also worth mentioning in Gautreks saga(no relation to Snorri), King Vikar is hanged with the words, ‘Now I give you to Odin’.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**As @andejons said below I will add this:**&#xD;&#xA;This depends on the translation/interpretation that you read. Each has a slight variation. The word Ygg/Yggr/Ugg/Uggr are the same word just with different meanings. As a title claimed by Odin Yggr in that context would mean &quot;Terrible One&quot;. Ugg/Uggr also meant fear or apprehension.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is the excerpt from the Havamal with various translations:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;I ween that I hung | on the windy tree,&quot; &#xD;&#xA;-Translation by H. A. Bellows&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Wounded I hung on a wind-swept gallows&quot;&#xD;&#xA;-Translated by Auden and Taylor&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;I trow I hung on that windy Tree&quot;&#xD;&#xA;-Translated by Olive Bray&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;I know that I hung, on a wind swept tree&quot;&#xD;&#xA;-Translated by Chrisholm&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;I wot that I hung on the wind-tossed tree&quot;&#xD;&#xA;-Translated by Lee Hollander&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;I know that I hung on a high windy tree&quot;&#xD;&#xA;-Translated by Patricia Terry&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;I know that I hung, on a wind-rocked tree,&quot;&#xD;&#xA;-Translated by Benjamin Thorpe&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Just from the variety of these translations alone it's clear we don't have a precise answer. There is also the suggestion that wind-swept gallows/wind-swept tree was a kenning for Yggdrasil. A wind-swept gallows or tree would be dangerous to hang from as there is the risk of bodily harm is higher.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Woo, that was a rollercoaster... lol&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Human sacrifice and stuff:&#xD;&#xA;[Human sacrifices?](http://en.natmus.dk/historical-knowledge/denmark/prehistoric-period-until-1050-ad/the-viking-age/religion-magic-death-and-rituals/human-sacrifices/)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9501" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2072" RevisionGUID="1337aa26-ecc8-424b-a74f-393a1e2b326b" CreationDate="2017-01-14T14:39:22.480" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="9502" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2284" RevisionGUID="00d43163-7200-4646-86b9-7f6c110f2157" CreationDate="2017-01-14T15:01:20.697" UserId="57" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="**No.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Outside of the brief description of her, she is never given a name. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9504" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2287" RevisionGUID="66311819-062a-494e-be1e-c1b658a07281" CreationDate="2017-01-14T20:10:05.463" UserId="57" Text="In the first book of the Gesta Danorum, Saxo Grammaticus tells us that &quot;Dudo, the historian of Normandy, considers that the Danes are sprung and named from the Danai&quot;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;. Dudo is presumambly [Dudo of Saint-Quentin][1], and &quot;Danai&quot; ([Danaoi/Danaans][2]) is one of the names Homer uses in the Iliad for the Greeks. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the story here? Does Dudo explain how the Greeks made it all the way to Denmark? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt; &lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; The Nine Books of the Danish History of Saxo Grammaticus, translated by Oliver Elton (Norroena Society, New York, 1905)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dudo_of_Saint-Quentin&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaeans_(Homer)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9505" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2287" RevisionGUID="66311819-062a-494e-be1e-c1b658a07281" CreationDate="2017-01-14T20:10:05.463" UserId="57" Text="Why did Dudo consider the Greeks to be the ancestors of the Danes?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9506" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2287" RevisionGUID="66311819-062a-494e-be1e-c1b658a07281" CreationDate="2017-01-14T20:10:05.463" UserId="57" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9507" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2287" RevisionGUID="ed47b53c-6272-4907-9f2d-10839f74d94c" CreationDate="2017-01-14T20:16:49.840" UserId="57" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="In the first book of the Gesta Danorum, Saxo Grammaticus tells us that &quot;Dudo, the historian of Normandy, considers that the Danes are sprung and named from the Danai&quot; &lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;. Dudo is presumambly [Dudo of Saint-Quentin][1], and &quot;Danai&quot; ([Danaoi/Danaans][2]) is one of the names Homer uses in the Iliad for the Greeks. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the story here? Does Dudo explain how the Greeks made it all the way to Denmark? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt; &lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; The Nine Books of the Danish History of Saxo Grammaticus, translated by Oliver Elton (Norroena Society, New York, 1905)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dudo_of_Saint-Quentin&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaeans_(Homer)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9508" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2282" RevisionGUID="9662bb1a-71ba-4a0d-a5f2-a7bbe2acc503" CreationDate="2017-01-14T21:11:31.277" UserId="3350" Comment="deleted 136 characters in body; deleted 23 characters in body" Text="Chapter 3 of the Volsungs Saga:&#xA;&gt; The tale tells that great fires were made endlong the hall, and the great tree aforesaid stood midmost thereof, withal folk say that, whenas men sat by the fires in the evening, a certain man came into the hall unknown of aspect to all men; and suchlike array he had, that over him was a spotted cloak, and he was bare-foot, and had linen-breeches knit tight even unto the bone, and he had a sword in his hand as he went up to the Branstock, and a slouched hat upon his head: huge he was, and seeming-ancient, and one-eyed. So he drew his sword and smote it into the tree-trunk so that it sank in up to the hilts; and all held back from greeting the man. Then he took up the word, and said-- &quot;Whoso draweth this sword from this stock, shall have the same as a gift from me, and shall find in good sooth(truth) that never bare he better sword in hand than is this.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;Odin had originally traveled in disguise and stuck the sword into the tree himself. After many others tried, Sigmund was the only one to be able to pull the sword from the tree. &#xA;&#xA;In Chapter 11 &#xA;&gt; Now was that battle fierce and fell, and though Sigmund were old, yet most hardily he fought, and was ever the foremost of his men; no shield or byrny might hold against him, and he went ever through the ranks of his foemen on that day, and no man might see how things would fare between them; many an arrow and many a spear was aloft in air that day, and so his spae-wrights wrought for him that he got no wound, and none can tell over the tale of those who fell before him, and both his arms were red with blood, even to the shoulders.&#xA;&#xA;Odin is coming to take the sword back to give it to someone else. Sigmund attacks Odin and Odin shatters his sword(this being the &quot;mortal blow&quot; I was referring to). The sword was what gave Sigmund his abilities and having it broken was dating him to death. It's vague to mention whether Sigmund knew it was Odin or not. Although Odin being in disguise might suggest that Sigmund had no idea who it was. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9509" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2282" RevisionGUID="c6798983-25dd-4f69-b92c-dec60b743d57" CreationDate="2017-01-14T21:16:50.720" UserId="3350" Comment="edited body" Text="Chapter 3 of the Volsungs Saga:&#xA;&gt; The tale tells that great fires were made endlong the hall, and the great tree aforesaid stood midmost thereof, withal folk say that, whenas men sat by the fires in the evening, a certain man came into the hall unknown of aspect to all men; and suchlike array he had, that over him was a spotted cloak, and he was bare-foot, and had linen-breeches knit tight even unto the bone, and he had a sword in his hand as he went up to the Branstock, and a slouched hat upon his head: huge he was, and seeming-ancient, and one-eyed. So he drew his sword and smote it into the tree-trunk so that it sank in up to the hilts; and all held back from greeting the man. Then he took up the word, and said-- &quot;Whoso draweth this sword from this stock, shall have the same as a gift from me, and shall find in good sooth(truth) that never bare he better sword in hand than is this.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;Odin had originally traveled in disguise and stuck the sword into the tree himself. After many others tried, Sigmund was the only one to be able to pull the sword from the tree. &#xA;&#xA;In Chapter 11 &#xA;&gt; Now was that battle fierce and fell, and though Sigmund were old, yet most hardily he fought, and was ever the foremost of his men; no shield or byrny might hold against him, and he went ever through the ranks of his foemen on that day, and no man might see how things would fare between them; many an arrow and many a spear was aloft in air that day, and so his spae-wrights wrought for him that he got no wound, and none can tell over the tale of those who fell before him, and both his arms were red with blood, even to the shoulders.&#xA;&#xA;Odin is coming to take the sword back to give it to someone else. Sigmund attacks Odin and Odin shatters his sword(this being the &quot;mortal blow&quot; I was referring to). The sword was what gave Sigmund his abilities and having it broken was fating him to death. It's vague to mention whether Sigmund knew it was Odin or not. Although Odin being in disguise might suggest that Sigmund had no idea who it was. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9510" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2288" RevisionGUID="5d881b69-41ea-4c78-862e-84b3a62a501f" CreationDate="2017-01-14T21:30:57.447" UserId="2892" Text="[Thorgerd Egilsdottir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorgerd_Egilsdottir) who threatens to starve herself to death unless her father eats after the death of his beloved son, Bodvar.  Her threat must be seen as doubly heroic in the context of the quote:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I have had no evening meal, nor will I do so until I go to join Freyja. I know no better course of action than my father’s. I do not want to live after my father and brother are dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Egils Saga Skallagrímssonar (Egil’s Saga), in The Sagas of the Icelanders, ed. Örnólfur Thorsson, trans. Bernard Scudder (New York: Penguin Books, 2001), 151.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here she is referring to  [Fólkvangr](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%B3lkvangr), the domain of [Freyja](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freyja), where half of dead heroes go.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She also appears in the [Laxdæla saga](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laxd%C3%A6la_saga) where she is characterized thus: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Everyone soon realized what a woman of strong character Thorgerd was: though she was not one to waste words, once she set her mind on something there was no swaying her – things had to go the way she wanted.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Id. p. 315&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and later she is active in shaming her sons into seeking vengeance for their slain brother Kjartan:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Here lives Bolli, your brother’s slayer, and not a shred of resemblance do you bear to your great ancestors since you won’t avenge a brother the likes of Kjartan. Never would your grandfather Egil have acted like this, and it grieves me to have such spineless sons. You would have made your father better daughters, to be married off, than sons. It shows the truth of the saying, Halldor, that “every kin has its coward”. I see only too well now that fathering such sons was Olaf’s great failing. I will address my words to you Halldor...because you’ve taken the lead among your brothers. We will turn back now; I made the journey mainly to remind you of what you seem to have forgotten.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Id. p. 377&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So set on vengeance is she that she accompanies the party and, when they balk at the coup de grâce, urges them on:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When Bolli was cornered, Thorgerd “urged them not to hesitate to finish Bolli off and put some space between trunk and head.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Id. p. 381&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;which is quite reminiscent of Euripides' take on [Electra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electra_(Euripides_play)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9511" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2244" RevisionGUID="fb4b0c9d-cd6b-46a9-82a8-607fc497f2b5" CreationDate="2017-01-14T21:36:17.507" UserId="2892" Comment="Narrowed the scope to focus on the Norse tradition--I figure Celtic would make a good question all on it's own." Text="When I first read [Grettir's Saga](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grettis_saga#Story). I was impressed by his indomitability and that his foes had to use magic to weaken him in order to overcome him. To this end they employed a crone.  (She enchants a log which floats to Drang Isle and Grettir's axe slips and wounds him when he attempts to chop it up for firewood.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The parallel with the [death of Cúchulainn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Chulainn#C.C3.BA_Chulainn.27s_death) is striking.  Also indomitable, it is is his interaction with a crone that weakens him before his ultimate defeat.  (In this case, the hero is presented with conflicting taboos--a lose/lose situation.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Angrboða](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angrbo%C3%B0a) is another such figure in the sense that Odin and Thor only ultimately fall because of her offspring [Fenrir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenrir#Gylfaginning_chapters_38_and_51) and [Jörmungandr](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rmungandr#Final_battle).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What are some other examples of female agency in Norse mythology and folklore&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_________&#xD;&#xA;Note: I know that the term &quot;female agency&quot; has a spectrum of definitions, but here I am using it in the sense of &quot;the active role of the female in a particular genre or endeavor&quot;.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9512" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2244" RevisionGUID="fb4b0c9d-cd6b-46a9-82a8-607fc497f2b5" CreationDate="2017-01-14T21:36:17.507" UserId="2892" Comment="Narrowed the scope to focus on the Norse tradition--I figure Celtic would make a good question all on it's own." Text="Examples of female agency in the Norse tradition" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9513" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2244" RevisionGUID="fb4b0c9d-cd6b-46a9-82a8-607fc497f2b5" CreationDate="2017-01-14T21:36:17.507" UserId="2892" Comment="Narrowed the scope to focus on the Norse tradition--I figure Celtic would make a good question all on it's own." Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9514" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2289" RevisionGUID="008efb2e-f457-41d8-9592-c5ea3f9f9cb2" CreationDate="2017-01-14T22:57:31.490" UserId="3230" Text="In Canto XXXIV Lucifer is presented as a winged giant with three faces: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Oh, what a wonder it appeared to me  &#xD;&#xA;when I perceived three faces on his head.  &#xD;&#xA;The first, in front, was red in color.  &#xD;&#xA;Another two he had, each joined with this,  &#xD;&#xA;above the midpoint of each shoulder,  &#xD;&#xA;and all the three united at the crest.  &#xD;&#xA;The one on the right was a whitish yellow,  &#xD;&#xA;while the left-hand one was tinted like the people  &#xD;&#xA;living at the sources of the Nile.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_Divina Commedia, edited by Giorgio Petrocchi and published by Mondadori_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why does Dante portray Lucifer as three-faced?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9515" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2289" RevisionGUID="008efb2e-f457-41d8-9592-c5ea3f9f9cb2" CreationDate="2017-01-14T22:57:31.490" UserId="3230" Text="Why is Lucifer three-faced?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9516" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2289" RevisionGUID="008efb2e-f457-41d8-9592-c5ea3f9f9cb2" CreationDate="2017-01-14T22:57:31.490" UserId="3230" Text="|christianity|symbolism|dante|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9520" PostHistoryTypeId="11" PostId="2240" RevisionGUID="b3245c8d-9be9-4f26-ad2a-53a2fb2a2b32" CreationDate="2017-01-14T23:04:30.200" UserId="183" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:62,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Hamlet&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:111,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;plannapus&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:42,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;femtoRgon&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:2892,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;DukeZhou&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:183,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;HDE 226868&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="9522" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2290" RevisionGUID="d858d399-5ab6-4835-b878-5d8e0a715804" CreationDate="2017-01-14T23:17:29.287" UserId="183" Text="It's worth looking further down [Canto XXXIV](http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/dante/in34.htm) (I'm using a slightly different translation) to see just who is stuffed into Lucifer's mouths:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  &quot;That upper spirit,  &#xD;&#xA;Who hath worst punishment,&quot; so spake my guide,  &#xD;&#xA;&quot;Is Judas, he that hath his head within  &#xD;&#xA;And plies the feet without. Of th' other two,  &#xD;&#xA;Whose heads are under, from the murky jaw  &#xD;&#xA;Who hangs, is Brutus: lo! how he doth writhe  &#xD;&#xA;And speaks not. The other, Cassius, that appears  &#xD;&#xA;So large of limb. But night now reascends;  &#xD;&#xA;And it is time for parting. All is seen.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All three - Judas, Brutus, and Cassius - were remembered as betrayers. Judas betrayed Jesus to the Romans, leading to his death, while Brutus and Cassius were responsible for the assassination of Julius Caesar. As [these annotations](http://danteworlds.laits.utexas.edu/textpopup/inf3401.html) note, Dante was an admirer of the Roman Empire, and Caesar in particular (keep in mind that is guide is none other than Virgil!). The two men responsible for his death, then, would be deserving of such a fate." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9523" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2289" RevisionGUID="7281242c-5922-4ac7-a2f5-d825d0130ff6" CreationDate="2017-01-15T03:56:43.983" UserId="967" Comment="added 5 characters in body" Text="In Canto XXXIV Lucifer is presented as a winged giant with three faces: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Oh, what a wonder it appeared to me  &#xD;&#xA;when I perceived **three faces** on his head.  &#xD;&#xA;The first, in front, was red in color.  &#xD;&#xA;Another two he had, each joined with this,  &#xD;&#xA;above the midpoint of each shoulder,  &#xD;&#xA;and all the three united at the crest.  &#xD;&#xA;The one on the right was a whitish yellow,  &#xD;&#xA;while the left-hand one was tinted like the people  &#xD;&#xA;living at the sources of the Nile.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_Divina Commedia, edited by Giorgio Petrocchi and published by Mondadori_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why does Dante portray Lucifer as three-faced?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9524" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2291" RevisionGUID="51833eab-72a1-4d77-b2f9-06d8632b9324" CreationDate="2017-01-15T07:16:15.250" UserId="3230" Text="Satan was once an angel, expelled from heaven for his pride.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question is what type of angel was he? A seraph, a cherub, or something else?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9525" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2291" RevisionGUID="51833eab-72a1-4d77-b2f9-06d8632b9324" CreationDate="2017-01-15T07:16:15.250" UserId="3230" Text="Was Satan a seraph or a cherub?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9526" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2291" RevisionGUID="51833eab-72a1-4d77-b2f9-06d8632b9324" CreationDate="2017-01-15T07:16:15.250" UserId="3230" Text="|christianity|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9527" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2292" RevisionGUID="9b85b308-617b-4107-b2c6-ef42ed43702a" CreationDate="2017-01-15T09:51:48.623" UserId="3351" Text="Atlantis was said to be an island, big one, somewhere westward of what is Gibraltar today. Supposedly west of Atlantis were small islands that one could travel from one to another and reach a large continent. (America)&#xD;&#xA;Yet the closest nation to the Atlantians were the Egyptians. It was also a city in that island with the same name, founded by Poseidon, after the Atheneans chose Athena as their patron. According to the story in the beggining Atlantians were the kindest people and shared everything between them which made everyone rich. But as they became rich they also became greedy, and at one point their greed lead them to invade their neighbours to steal their wealth. So they attacked Egypt which was unprepared and didn't fought back, but Atheneans saw that and prepared themselves to fight back, and thus the first war started.&#xD;&#xA;Poseidon himself decided to destroy his creation because its people sinned by inventing war." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9528" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2293" RevisionGUID="3ef3fe2b-4418-4c1a-8b20-1d39b5b24168" CreationDate="2017-01-15T10:13:19.577" UserId="3351" Text="I don't think that the point of the myth lies to the fact that it was Pandora that openned the box, neither that the box necessarily symbolizes the womb. It could have been her husband, Epimetheus, that oppened it, and it wouldn't matter, the result would be the same. What matters is that Zeus knew all along that the box would be openned. The box was given to the couple as their wedding gift by Zeus, and he wanted to punish humanity this way, because humanity accepted the gift of the Holy Flame stolen by Prometheus. That made the humans more powerful than they were, and some of them became greedy and invaded Olympus to overthrow the gods, and become rulers in their place. Zeus zapped those who even tried to climb Olympus with lighnings, and to take revenge he thought of that trick with the box.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So basically the main point of the story is that accepting stolen goods is bad.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that Pandora's husband, Epimetheus is NOT a man. He is a Titan. Humanity prior to Pandora existed as beings that had no sexes and were given birth by Earth, literaly (According to the myth) sprouting out of soil like plants do. Thus women through Pandora is the oldest sex of the two. This is not something explicitly written, but one is lead to that conclusion one he realizes that the first humans didn't had a gender / sex and had no sex." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9530" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2294" RevisionGUID="79487ef1-cabf-4882-b3b6-cc60fdde3474" CreationDate="2017-01-15T13:43:15.550" UserId="1241" Text="Why is the Devil also known as Lucifer (and other names) three-faced? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To understand this symbolic meaning of Dante in his *Canto XXXIV*, we have to have a basic understanding of the beliefs of the Catholic Church.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First of the devil was a murderer and the father of lies from the beginning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. - [John 8:44][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Well we have all heard of the expression about someone being two face:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[Definition of two–faced for English Language Learners][2]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;not honest or sincere&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;saying different things to different people in order to get their approval instead of speaking and behaving honestly&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Far worse is the Devil to Dante as being someone that is simply two faced, he is three faced, as imagined by Dante as having three faces.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Another aspect of this symbolic meaning is Lucifer's desire to be like God and to be worshiped as such.** Now the God of Catholics is known as the [Holy Trinity][3] composed of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, or &quot;one God in three Divine Persons&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this three-face appearance of Satan, Dante is showing us the Evil One's desire to mock the very image of God Himself and if he could take his place!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Whether you call him Satan, Lucifer, or Mephistopholes, he’s a beast with even more faces than he has names. Over the past five centuries, artists have variously depicted the devil as a fanged, horned demon; as an armored, Apollo-like army leader; and as a tailor of Nazi uniforms. - [The Changing Face Of Satan, From 1500 To Today][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An analysis of *Canto XXXIV* reveals a few tidbits of Dante's thinking in regards to Judas, Brutus, and Cassius:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;One who betrays one’s benefactor comes closest to betraying God directly. Thus, the ultimate sinner, Judas Iscariot, was a man who betrayed both simultaneously, for his benefactor was Jesus Christ.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Since spiritual concerns must, in the end, outweigh temporal ones, **Judas has committed the greater sin, and his head, rather than his legs, feels the constant chewing of Lucifer’s teeth.** However, the fact that **Brutus and Cassius suffer a punishment only slightly less harsh** demonstrates Dante’s belief that church and state play equally important roles, each in its own sphere. Throughout Inferno, Dante has expressed the view that church and state should remain separate but equal. Now, Dante finds an arrangement for the final circle of Hell that both completes his vision of the moral hierarchy and makes one last, vivid assertion of his politics.  [Analysis: Canto XXXIV][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Satan tricephalos-tonguesticker, with fiery crown or hair, holding the Serpent, on the amazing 12th century façade at Tuscania (Viterbo).][6]][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Satan tricephalos-tonguesticker, with fiery crown or hair, holding the Serpent,&#xD;&#xA;on the amazing 12th century façade at Tuscania (Viterbo).][7]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208%3A44&amp;version=KJV&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/two%E2%80%93faced&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.fastcodesign.com/3034309/the-changing-face-of-satan-artistic-depictions-of-the-devil-1500-to-today&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.sparknotes.com/poetry/inferno/section13.rhtml&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/vaKsc.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.beyond-the-pale.org.uk/hell.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9531" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2295" RevisionGUID="fb5a3fe5-c513-40d0-a399-724a10332223" CreationDate="2017-01-15T16:24:18.960" UserId="1241" Text="This answer will be based on the Catholic traditions in regards to Satan and the Nine choirs of angels.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although it is now generally accept that there are [nine choirs of angel][1] and each choir is of angel is different and ranked accordingly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;During the Middle Ages, many schemes were proposed, some drawing on and expanding on Pseudo-Dionysius, others suggesting completely different classifications. According to medieval Christian theologians, the angels are organized into several orders, or &quot;Angelic Choirs&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Pseudo-Dionysius (On the Celestial Hierarchy) and Thomas Aquinas (Summa Theologica) drew on passages from the New Testament, specifically Ephesians 1:21 and Colossians 1:16, to develop a schema of three Hierarchies, Spheres or Triads of angels, with each Hierarchy containing three Orders or Choirs. Although both authors drew on the New Testament, the Biblical canon is relatively silent on the subject, and these hierarchies are considered less definitive than biblical material.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Choirs in medieval theology&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;St. Thomas Aquinas in Summa Theologica (1225–1274):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;1. Seraphim, Cherubim, and Thrones;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;2. Dominations, Virtues, and Powers;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;3. Principalities, Archangels, and Angels. - [Christian angelology (Wikipedia)][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;St Thomas Aquinas' list is by far the most widely accepted list of angelic choirs and places the Seraphic order of angel as being at the highest level of angels followed by the Cherubim, and so on. According to St Thomas:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;1. The angels that rebelled and became demons did not lose their nature or their connatural gifts. They cast away, by their sin, the grace in which they were created. They did not cast away the beatific vision, for they never had it. Now, if we think of angelic orders as orders of angels in glory, then, of course, there are no orders of bad angels. But if we consider angelic orders as order of angelic nature simply, there are orders among the demons.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;2. Certainly, there is a precedence among bad angels; there is a subjection of some to others.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;3. Demons of superior nature do not enlighten inferior demons; enlightenment here could only mean the manifestation of truth with reference to God, and the fallen angels have perversely and permanently turned away from God. But demons can speak to one another, that is, they can make known their thoughts to one another, that is, they can make known their thoughts to one another, for this ability belongs to the angelic nature which the demons retain.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;4. The nearer creatures are to God the greater is their rule over other creatures. Therefore, the good angels rule and control the demons. - [ORDERS AMONG THE FALLEN ANGELS][2] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This  stated it only makes sense that Satan was a Seraphim, for surely some of the Seraphim fell in great revolt against God. **Although one can not say with certainty it is generally believed Satan was a Seraphim.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;3. Lucifer who became Satan, leader of the fallen angels, wished to be as God. This prideful desire was not a wish to be equal to God, for Satan knew by his natural knowledge that equality of creature with creator is utterly impossible. Besides, no creature actually desires to destroy itself, even to become something greater. On this point man sometimes deceives himself by a trick of imagination; he imagines himself to be another and greater being, and yet it is himself that is somehow this other being. But an angel has no sense-faculty of imagination to abuse in this fashion. The angelic intellect, with its clear knowledge, makes such self-deception impossible. Lucifer knew that to be equal with God, he would have to be God, and he knew perfectly that this could not be. What he wanted was to be as God; he wished to be like God in a way not suited to his nature, such as to create things by his own power, or to achieve final beatitude without God's help, or to have command over others in a way proper to God alone.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;7. Lucifer, chief of the sinning angels, was probably the highest of all the angels. But there are some who think that Lucifer was highest only among the rebel angels. -  [SIN OF THE FALLEN ANGELS][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_angelology&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.jesus-passion.com/angels.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9532" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2295" RevisionGUID="4719f3f1-b4e5-4afa-bf9b-e6f12e060fd7" CreationDate="2017-01-15T16:30:13.450" UserId="1241" Comment="edited body" Text="This answer will be based on the Catholic traditions in regards to Satan and the nine choirs of angels.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although it is now generally accept that there are [nine choirs of angel][1] and each choir is of angel is different and ranked accordingly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;During the Middle Ages, many schemes were proposed, some drawing on and expanding on Pseudo-Dionysius, others suggesting completely different classifications. According to medieval Christian theologians, the angels are organized into several orders, or &quot;Angelic Choirs&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Pseudo-Dionysius (On the Celestial Hierarchy) and Thomas Aquinas (Summa Theologica) drew on passages from the New Testament, specifically Ephesians 1:21 and Colossians 1:16, to develop a schema of three Hierarchies, Spheres or Triads of angels, with each Hierarchy containing three Orders or Choirs. Although both authors drew on the New Testament, the Biblical canon is relatively silent on the subject, and these hierarchies are considered less definitive than biblical material.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Choirs in medieval theology&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;St. Thomas Aquinas in Summa Theologica (1225–1274):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;1. Seraphim, Cherubim, and Thrones;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;2. Dominations, Virtues, and Powers;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;3. Principalities, Archangels, and Angels. - [Christian angelology (Wikipedia)][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;St Thomas Aquinas' list is by far the most widely accepted list of angelic choirs and places the Seraphic order of angel as being at the highest level of angels followed by the Cherubim, and so on. According to St Thomas:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;1. The angels that rebelled and became demons did not lose their nature or their connatural gifts. They cast away, by their sin, the grace in which they were created. They did not cast away the beatific vision, for they never had it. Now, if we think of angelic orders as orders of angels in glory, then, of course, there are no orders of bad angels. But if we consider angelic orders as order of angelic nature simply, there are orders among the demons.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;2. Certainly, there is a precedence among bad angels; there is a subjection of some to others.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;3. Demons of superior nature do not enlighten inferior demons; enlightenment here could only mean the manifestation of truth with reference to God, and the fallen angels have perversely and permanently turned away from God. But demons can speak to one another, that is, they can make known their thoughts to one another, that is, they can make known their thoughts to one another, for this ability belongs to the angelic nature which the demons retain.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;4. The nearer creatures are to God the greater is their rule over other creatures. Therefore, the good angels rule and control the demons. - [ORDERS AMONG THE FALLEN ANGELS][2] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This  stated it only makes sense that Satan was a Seraphim, for surely some of the Seraphim fell in great revolt against God. **Although one can not say with certainty it is generally believed Satan was a Seraphim.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;3. Lucifer who became Satan, leader of the fallen angels, wished to be as God. This prideful desire was not a wish to be equal to God, for Satan knew by his natural knowledge that equality of creature with creator is utterly impossible. Besides, no creature actually desires to destroy itself, even to become something greater. On this point man sometimes deceives himself by a trick of imagination; he imagines himself to be another and greater being, and yet it is himself that is somehow this other being. But an angel has no sense-faculty of imagination to abuse in this fashion. The angelic intellect, with its clear knowledge, makes such self-deception impossible. Lucifer knew that to be equal with God, he would have to be God, and he knew perfectly that this could not be. What he wanted was to be as God; he wished to be like God in a way not suited to his nature, such as to create things by his own power, or to achieve final beatitude without God's help, or to have command over others in a way proper to God alone.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;7. Lucifer, chief of the sinning angels, was probably the highest of all the angels. But there are some who think that Lucifer was highest only among the rebel angels. -  [SIN OF THE FALLEN ANGELS][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_angelology&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.jesus-passion.com/angels.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9533" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2288" RevisionGUID="2477d8c0-0a7b-4e2c-8a11-0e1acb54f561" CreationDate="2017-01-15T19:05:23.910" UserId="2892" Comment="corrected the reference switching to Laxdæla for clarification.  (Still the same text but a different saga within)" Text="[Thorgerd Egilsdottir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorgerd_Egilsdottir) who threatens to starve herself to death unless her father eats after the death of his beloved son, Bodvar.  Her threat must be seen as doubly heroic in the context of the quote:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I have had no evening meal, nor will I do so until I go to join Freyja. I know no better course of action than my father’s. I do not want to live after my father and brother are dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Egils Saga Skallagrímssonar (Egil’s Saga), in The Sagas of the Icelanders, ed. Örnólfur Thorsson, trans. Bernard Scudder (New York: Penguin Books, 2001), p. 151.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here she is referring to  [Fólkvangr](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%B3lkvangr), the domain of [Freyja](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freyja), where half of dead heroes go.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She also appears in the [Laxdæla saga](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laxd%C3%A6la_saga) where she is characterized thus: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Everyone soon realized what a woman of strong character Thorgerd was: though she was not one to waste words, once she set her mind on something there was no swaying her – things had to go the way she wanted.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: he Saga of the People of Laxardal (Laxdæla saga), in The Sagas of the Icelanders, ed. Örnólfur Thorsson, trans. Bernard Scudder (New York: Penguin Books, 2001), p. 315&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and later she is active in shaming her sons into seeking vengeance for their slain brother Kjartan:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Here lives Bolli, your brother’s slayer, and not a shred of resemblance do you bear to your great ancestors since you won’t avenge a brother the likes of Kjartan. Never would your grandfather Egil have acted like this, and it grieves me to have such spineless sons. You would have made your father better daughters, to be married off, than sons. It shows the truth of the saying, Halldor, that “every kin has its coward”. I see only too well now that fathering such sons was Olaf’s great failing. I will address my words to you Halldor...because you’ve taken the lead among your brothers. We will turn back now; I made the journey mainly to remind you of what you seem to have forgotten.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Id. p. 377&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So set on vengeance is she that she accompanies the party and, when they balk at the coup de grâce, urges them on:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When Bolli was cornered, Thorgerd “urged them not to hesitate to finish Bolli off and put some space between trunk and head.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Id. p. 381&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;which is quite reminiscent of Euripides' take on [Electra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electra_(Euripides_play)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9534" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2294" RevisionGUID="1bd51f91-0e4d-4b16-9f23-848cdda94689" CreationDate="2017-01-15T19:27:53.697" UserId="2892" Comment="smoothed out a few sentences and corrected a couple typos.  Also shifted some boldface to highlight the direct answer, and made it a bullet to further emphasize." Text="Why is the Devil also known as Lucifer (and other names) three-faced? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To understand this symbolic meaning of Dante in his *Canto XXXIV*, we have to have a basic understanding of the beliefs of the Catholic Church.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First of all, the devil was a murderer and the father of lies from the beginning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. - [John 8:44][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We have all heard of the expression about someone being two-faced:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[Definition of two–faced for English Language Learners][2]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;not honest or sincere&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;saying different things to different people in order to get their approval instead of speaking and behaving honestly&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Far worse is the Devil to Dante than someone simply two-faced, thus he imagines the Devil as having three faces. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another aspect of this symbolic meaning is Lucifer's desire to be like God and to be worshiped as such. The God of Catholics is known as the [Holy Trinity][3] composed of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, or &quot;one God in three Divine Persons&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **In this three-face appearance of Satan, Dante is showing us the Evil One's desire to mock the very image of God Himself as if he could take his place!**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Whether you call him Satan, Lucifer, or Mephistopholes, he’s a beast with even more faces than he has names. Over the past five centuries, artists have variously depicted the devil as a fanged, horned demon; as an armored, Apollo-like army leader; and as a tailor of Nazi uniforms. - [The Changing Face Of Satan, From 1500 To Today][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An analysis of *Canto XXXIV* reveals a few tidbits of Dante's thinking in regards to Judas, Brutus, and Cassius:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;One who betrays one’s benefactor comes closest to betraying God directly. Thus, the ultimate sinner, Judas Iscariot, was a man who betrayed both simultaneously, for his benefactor was Jesus Christ.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Since spiritual concerns must, in the end, outweigh temporal ones, **Judas has committed the greater sin, and his head, rather than his legs, feels the constant chewing of Lucifer’s teeth.** However, the fact that **Brutus and Cassius suffer a punishment only slightly less harsh** demonstrates Dante’s belief that church and state play equally important roles, each in its own sphere. Throughout Inferno, Dante has expressed the view that church and state should remain separate but equal. Now, Dante finds an arrangement for the final circle of Hell that both completes his vision of the moral hierarchy and makes one last, vivid assertion of his politics.  [Analysis: Canto XXXIV][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Satan tricephalos-tonguesticker, with fiery crown or hair, holding the Serpent, on the amazing 12th century façade at Tuscania (Viterbo).][6]][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Satan tricephalos-tonguesticker, with fiery crown or hair, holding the Serpent,&#xD;&#xA;on the amazing 12th century façade at Tuscania (Viterbo).][7]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208%3A44&amp;version=KJV&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/two%E2%80%93faced&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.fastcodesign.com/3034309/the-changing-face-of-satan-artistic-depictions-of-the-devil-1500-to-today&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.sparknotes.com/poetry/inferno/section13.rhtml&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/vaKsc.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.beyond-the-pale.org.uk/hell.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9535" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2295" RevisionGUID="b0c24d08-b0c5-48a6-8a1b-b17a1b616967" CreationDate="2017-01-15T23:14:37.163" UserId="1241" Comment="Changed quote reference title." Text="This answer will be based on the Catholic traditions in regards to Satan and the nine choirs of angels.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although it is now generally accept that there are [nine choirs of angel][1] and each choir is of angel is different and ranked accordingly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;During the Middle Ages, many schemes were proposed, some drawing on and expanding on Pseudo-Dionysius, others suggesting completely different classifications. According to medieval Christian theologians, the angels are organized into several orders, or &quot;Angelic Choirs&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Pseudo-Dionysius (On the Celestial Hierarchy) and Thomas Aquinas (Summa Theologica) drew on passages from the New Testament, specifically Ephesians 1:21 and Colossians 1:16, to develop a schema of three Hierarchies, Spheres or Triads of angels, with each Hierarchy containing three Orders or Choirs. Although both authors drew on the New Testament, the Biblical canon is relatively silent on the subject, and these hierarchies are considered less definitive than biblical material.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Choirs in medieval theology&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;St. Thomas Aquinas in Summa Theologica (1225–1274):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;1. Seraphim, Cherubim, and Thrones;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;2. Dominations, Virtues, and Powers;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;3. Principalities, Archangels, and Angels. - [Christian angelology (Wikipedia)][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;St Thomas Aquinas' list is by far the most widely accepted list of angelic choirs and places the Seraphic order of angel as being at the highest level of angels followed by the Cherubim, and so on. According to St Thomas:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;1. The angels that rebelled and became demons did not lose their nature or their connatural gifts. They cast away, by their sin, the grace in which they were created. They did not cast away the beatific vision, for they never had it. Now, if we think of angelic orders as orders of angels in glory, then, of course, there are no orders of bad angels. But if we consider angelic orders as order of angelic nature simply, there are orders among the demons.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;2. Certainly, there is a precedence among bad angels; there is a subjection of some to others.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;3. Demons of superior nature do not enlighten inferior demons; enlightenment here could only mean the manifestation of truth with reference to God, and the fallen angels have perversely and permanently turned away from God. But demons can speak to one another, that is, they can make known their thoughts to one another, that is, they can make known their thoughts to one another, for this ability belongs to the angelic nature which the demons retain.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;4. The nearer creatures are to God the greater is their rule over other creatures. Therefore, the good angels rule and control the demons. - [ORDERS AMONG THE FALLEN ANGELS][2] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This  stated it only makes sense that Satan was a Seraphim, for surely some of the Seraphim fell in great revolt against God. **Although one can not say with certainty it is generally believed Satan was a Seraphim.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;3. Lucifer who became Satan, leader of the fallen angels, wished to be as God. This prideful desire was not a wish to be equal to God, for Satan knew by his natural knowledge that equality of creature with creator is utterly impossible. Besides, no creature actually desires to destroy itself, even to become something greater. On this point man sometimes deceives himself by a trick of imagination; he imagines himself to be another and greater being, and yet it is himself that is somehow this other being. But an angel has no sense-faculty of imagination to abuse in this fashion. The angelic intellect, with its clear knowledge, makes such self-deception impossible. Lucifer knew that to be equal with God, he would have to be God, and he knew perfectly that this could not be. What he wanted was to be as God; he wished to be like God in a way not suited to his nature, such as to create things by his own power, or to achieve final beatitude without God's help, or to have command over others in a way proper to God alone.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;7. Lucifer, chief of the sinning angels, was probably the highest of all the angels. But there are some who think that Lucifer was highest only among the rebel angels. -  [ANGELS: FROM THE TEACHINGS OF SAINT THOMAS AQUINAS][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_angelology&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.jesus-passion.com/angels.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9536" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2295" RevisionGUID="50202555-a980-442d-b8b8-d2625811cb12" CreationDate="2017-01-16T00:47:48.503" UserId="1241" Comment="Added 5 words for clarity." Text="This answer will be based on the Catholic traditions in regards to Satan and the nine choirs of angels.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although it is now generally accept that there are [nine choirs of angel][1] and each choir is of angel is different and ranked accordingly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;During the Middle Ages, many schemes were proposed, some drawing on and expanding on Pseudo-Dionysius, others suggesting completely different classifications. According to medieval Christian theologians, the angels are organized into several orders, or &quot;Angelic Choirs&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Pseudo-Dionysius (On the Celestial Hierarchy) and Thomas Aquinas (Summa Theologica) drew on passages from the New Testament, specifically Ephesians 1:21 and Colossians 1:16, to develop a schema of three Hierarchies, Spheres or Triads of angels, with each Hierarchy containing three Orders or Choirs. Although both authors drew on the New Testament, the Biblical canon is relatively silent on the subject, and these hierarchies are considered less definitive than biblical material.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Choirs in medieval theology&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;St. Thomas Aquinas in Summa Theologica (1225–1274):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;1. Seraphim, Cherubim, and Thrones;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;2. Dominations, Virtues, and Powers;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;3. Principalities, Archangels, and Angels. - [Christian angelology (Wikipedia)][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;St Thomas Aquinas' list is by far the most widely accepted list of angelic choirs and places the Seraphic order of angel as being at the highest level of angels followed by the Cherubim, and so on. According to St Thomas:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;1. The angels that rebelled and became demons did not lose their nature or their connatural gifts. They cast away, by their sin, the grace in which they were created. They did not cast away the beatific vision, for they never had it. Now, if we think of angelic orders as orders of angels in glory, then, of course, there are no orders of bad angels. But if we consider angelic orders as order of angelic nature simply, there are orders among the demons.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;2. Certainly, there is a precedence among bad angels; there is a subjection of some to others.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;3. Demons of superior nature do not enlighten inferior demons; enlightenment here could only mean the manifestation of truth with reference to God, and the fallen angels have perversely and permanently turned away from God. But demons can speak to one another, that is, they can make known their thoughts to one another, that is, they can make known their thoughts to one another, for this ability belongs to the angelic nature which the demons retain.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;4. The nearer creatures are to God the greater is their rule over other creatures. Therefore, the good angels rule and control the demons. - [ORDERS AMONG THE FALLEN ANGELS][2] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This  stated it only makes sense that Satan was a Seraphim, for surely some of the Seraphim fell in great revolt against God. **Although one can not say with certainty it is generally believed Satan was a Seraphim.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**SIN OF THE FALLEN ANGELS**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;3. Lucifer who became Satan, leader of the fallen angels, wished to be as God. This prideful desire was not a wish to be equal to God, for Satan knew by his natural knowledge that equality of creature with creator is utterly impossible. Besides, no creature actually desires to destroy itself, even to become something greater. On this point man sometimes deceives himself by a trick of imagination; he imagines himself to be another and greater being, and yet it is himself that is somehow this other being. But an angel has no sense-faculty of imagination to abuse in this fashion. The angelic intellect, with its clear knowledge, makes such self-deception impossible. Lucifer knew that to be equal with God, he would have to be God, and he knew perfectly that this could not be. What he wanted was to be as God; he wished to be like God in a way not suited to his nature, such as to create things by his own power, or to achieve final beatitude without God's help, or to have command over others in a way proper to God alone.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;7. Lucifer, chief of the sinning angels, was probably the highest of all the angels. But there are some who think that Lucifer was highest only among the rebel angels. -  [ANGELS: FROM THE TEACHINGS OF SAINT THOMAS AQUINAS][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_angelology&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.jesus-passion.com/angels.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9541" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2296" RevisionGUID="52dbe933-ba0a-41c0-aa55-f8cabe56e32d" CreationDate="2017-01-16T15:27:06.510" UserId="1241" Text="Does every *culture* have some sort of deluge myth? Possibly, but it is impossible to say for sure. Major culture systems are a different matter. For example, if we combine all North American Indian cultures together, there are definitely some deluge myths, where as it would be hard to say for sure if exactly every single Native Tribe believed this specific myth or not. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;A flood myth or deluge myth is a narrative in which a great flood, usually sent by a deity or deities, destroys civilization, often in an act of divine retribution. Parallels are often drawn between the flood waters of these myths and the primeval waters found in certain creation myths, as the flood waters are described as a measure for the cleansing of humanity, in preparation for rebirth. Most flood myths also contain a culture hero, who &quot;represents the human craving for life&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;The flood myth motif is found among many cultures as seen in the Mesopotamian flood stories, Deucalion in Greek mythology, the Genesis flood narrative, the Hindu texts from India, Bergelmir in Norse Mythology, in the lore of the K'iche' and Maya peoples in Mesoamerica, the Lac Courte Oreilles Ojibwa tribe of Native Americans in North America, the Muisca, and Cañari Confederation, in South America. - [Flood myth (Wikipedia)][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most of the following list is taken from this site: [The Talk Origins Archive.][2] Although I have not put forth an exhaustive list of which cultures have some sort of *Deluge Myth*, it would be safe to say that a culture that did not have such a myth or legend would in deed be difficult to track down. Does one exist? Possibly, but we may never known. The Following list is only a small sample of cultures having a Deluge Myth:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**North American Native Indian Deluge Myths**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [THE GREAT FLOOD][3]  Ottawa Native American Indian Lore&#xD;&#xA; - [North American Indian Legends: The Deluge][4] A Cherokee Legend&#xD;&#xA; - [Mexico][5] The Toltec natives have a legend telling that the original creation lasted for 1716 years, and was destroyed by a flood and only one family survived.&#xD;&#xA; - [Eskimo (Orowignarak, Alaska):][6] A great inundation, together with an earthquake, swept the land so rapidly that only a few people escaped in their skin canoes to the tops of the highest mountains.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Mesoamerican Flood Myths** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Native flood myths of pre-Columbian origin][7]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**South American Native Indian Deluge Myths** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Urcocari][8] Cañari People Legend&#xD;&#xA; - [Unu Pachakuti][9] Inca Myth&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Europe**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Greek Myth:][6] Zeus sent a flood to destroy the men...&#xD;&#xA; - [Arcadian:][6] Dardanus, first king of Arcadia, was driven from his land by a great flood... &#xD;&#xA; - [Samothrace:][6] The sea rose when the barriers dividing the Black Sea from the Mediterranean burst...&#xD;&#xA; - [Roman:][6] Ovid, book 1&#xD;&#xA; - [Scandinavian:][6] Sturluson, p. 35&#xD;&#xA; - [Lithuanian:][6] From his heavenly window, the supreme god Pramzimas ...&#xD;&#xA; - [Transylvanian Gypsy:][6] Men once lived forever and knew no troubles...&#xD;&#xA; - [Turkey:][6] Iskender-Iulcarni ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Near East**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Sumerian:][6] The gods had decided to destroy mankind...&#xD;&#xA; - [Egypt:][6] People have become rebellious...&#xD;&#xA; - [Babylonian:][6] Dalley, pp. 23-35&#xD;&#xA; - [Assyrian:][6] The gods, led by Enlil, agreed to cleanse the earth ...&#xD;&#xA; - [Chaldean:][6] The god Chronos in a vision warned Xisuthrus, the tenth king of Babylon, of a flood ...&#xD;&#xA; - Hebrew: [Genesis 6-9][10]&#xD;&#xA; - Islamic: [Koran 11:25-48][11]&#xD;&#xA; - [Persian:][6] In early times, the earth was full of malign creatures...&#xD;&#xA; - [Zoroastrian:][6] Yima, under divine superintendence...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Africa**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Cameroon:][6] As a girl was grinding flour, a goat came to lick it...&#xD;&#xA; - [Masai (East Africa):][6] Tumbainot, a righteous man, had a wife named Naipande and three sons...&#xD;&#xA; - [Komililo Nandi:][6] Ilet, the spirit of lightning, came to live, in human form, in a cave high on the mountain named Tinderet...&#xD;&#xA; - [Kwaya (Lake Victoria):][6] The ocean was once enclosed in a small pot kept by a man and his wife...&#xD;&#xA; - [Southwest Tanzania (Rukwa Region):][6] The rivers began flooding...&#xD;&#xA; - [Lower Congo:][6] The sun once met the moon and threw mud at it, making it dimmer...&#xD;&#xA; - [Yoruba (southwest Nigeria):][6] A god, Ifa, tired of living on earth and went to dwell in the firmament with Obatala...&#xD;&#xA; - [Efik-Ibibio (Nigeria):][6] The sun and moon are man and wife, and their best friend was flood...&#xD;&#xA; - [Ekoi (Nigeria):][6] The first people Etim 'Ne (Old Person) and his wife Ejaw came to earth from the sky...&#xD;&#xA; - [Mandingo (Ivory Coast):][6] A charitable man gave away everything he had to the animals...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Asia**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Vogul:][6] After seven years of drought, the Great Woman said to the Great Man that rains had come elsewhere...&#xD;&#xA; - [Samoyed (north Siberia):][6] Seven people were saved in a boat from a flood...&#xD;&#xA; - [Yenisey-Ostyak (north central Siberia):][6] Flood waters rose for seven days...&#xD;&#xA; - Kamchadale (northeast Siberia): A flood covered the whole land in the early days of the world...&#xD;&#xA; - [Mongolia:][6] Hailibu, a kind and generous hunter, saved a white snake from a crane which attacked it...&#xD;&#xA; - [Hindu:][6] Manu, the first human, found a small fish in his washwater...&#xD;&#xA; - [Bhil (central India):][6] Out of gratitude for the dhobi feeding it, a fish told a dhobi (a pious man) that a great deluge was coming...&#xD;&#xA; - [Kamar (Raipur District, Central India):][6] A boy and girl were born to the first man and woman. God sent a deluge to destroy a jackal which had angered him...&#xD;&#xA; - [Tibet:][6] Tibet was almost totally inundated, until the god Gya took compassion on the survivors, drew off the waters through Bengal...&#xD;&#xA; - [Jino (southern Yunnan, China, near Mekong R.):][6] From the time of creation, people's lives were happy and peaceful, but one year a great flood came...&#xD;&#xA; - [Karen (Burma):][6] Two brothers survived a world-wide deluge on a raft...&#xD;&#xA; - [China:][6] The Supreme Sovereign ordered the water god Gong Gong to create a flood as punishment and warning for human misbehavior...&#xD;&#xA; - [Korea:][6] A son was borne to a fairy and a laurel tree; the fairy returned to heaven when the boy was seven years old...&#xD;&#xA; - [Batak (Sumatra):][6] The earth once rested on the three horns of the giant snake Naga Padoha, who grew tired of its burden and shook it off into the sea...&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;**Australia**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Arnhem Land (northern Northern Territory):][6] In one version of the myth of the Wawalik sisters, the sisters, with their two infant children, camped by the Mirrirmina waterhole...&#xD;&#xA; - [Maung (Goulburn Islands, Arnhem Land):][6] People dividing fish always gave the man Crow the poor quality ones... &#xD;&#xA; - [Maori (New Zealand):][6] Long ago, there were a great many different tribes, and they quarrelled and made war on each other...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Pacific Islands**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Kabadi (New Guinea):][6] Lohero and his brother were angry with their neighbors, so they put a human bone into a small stream...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Papua New Guinea:][6] A flood covered the whole world except for the summit of Mount Tauga...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Fiji:][6] The great god Ndengei had a favorite bird, called Turukawa, which would wake him every morning...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Samoa:][6] In a battle between Fire and Water...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Mangaia (Cook Islands):][6] The rain god Aokeu (&quot;Red Circle&quot; for the red clay he washes around the island), who was lowly born of the drippings from stalactites, disputed with the ocean god Ake to see which was more powerful...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Tahiti:][6] Tahiti was destroyed by the sea. Even the trees and stones were carried away by the wind. But two people were saved...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Hawaii:][6] Lalohona, a woman from the depths of the sea, was enticed ashore by Konikonia with a series of images...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.talkorigins.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.ilhawaii.net/~stony/lore126.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.firstpeople.us/FP-Html-Legends/TheDeluge-Cherokee.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html#anchor490120&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_flood_myths&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ca%C3%B1ari&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unu_Pachakuti&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=gen%206-9&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/QURAN/11.htm#25" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9542" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2297" RevisionGUID="84020f76-5143-4b7c-b90f-14e9bf885ddb" CreationDate="2017-01-16T19:36:24.907" UserId="3355" Text="It is not uncommon in mythology and religion to have things in groups of three (father, son &amp; holy ghost) as an example. It may stem from the Physical (body) mental (mind) and spirit (soul) concepts. A person was not thought of as just one but all three things to make up the individual come to be known as one. Lucifer or the devil is no different. You will find references of three in many religions. In some it may be three different gods. In others in may be one being who emanates in different ways. It is always a good idea to study the history of beliefs rather just on aspect because, many have their roots in other or previous beliefs. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9543" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2298" RevisionGUID="4a9bc9f6-5b26-4ec6-b475-c08344c695fb" CreationDate="2017-01-16T21:02:28.867" UserId="2892" Text="I was recently thinking about the suicides of Hedda Gabler and Miss Julie in relation to Sophocles' Ajax.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In all three plays, the main characters come from cultures based on honor/shame. (Gabler is the daughter of a General, and Julie, daughter of a Count, is a member of the aristocracy.)  Although the details of the three plays differ, the suicides are all driven by honor/shame: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Ajax](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_(mythology)#Death) commits suicide over the shame of having been denied Achilles' armor, his inability to exact vengeance, and dishonor of having been make a fool of by Athena, which render continued existence intolerable.   &#xD;&#xA;- [Hedda Gabler](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedda_Gabler#Plot), after her maneuverings to secure her future fail, realizing that she is compromised and will be in another's power, chooses to end her life rather than live in such an intolerable condition. (Such condition is beneath her dignity and impugns her honor).&#xD;&#xA;- [Miss Julie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miss_Julie#Plot), unable to escape her situation, chooses suicide rather than continue to exist in an intolerable condition. (Although her suicide is implied rather than explicit, consensus as to that outcome is overwhelming. Like Ajax, the catalyst for her downfall is a single moment of passion that carries profound ramifications in the context of her culture.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Suicide is not uncommon in military and aristocratic cultures such as Japan, China and Ancient Greece and Rome, often as an act of protest. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Because both Ibsen and Strindberg were Scandinavian writers, I'm looking for precedents in the Nordic tradition for suicide as an act of protest or means of expiating shame. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9544" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2298" RevisionGUID="4a9bc9f6-5b26-4ec6-b475-c08344c695fb" CreationDate="2017-01-16T21:02:28.867" UserId="2892" Text="Suicide in the Sagas?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9545" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2298" RevisionGUID="4a9bc9f6-5b26-4ec6-b475-c08344c695fb" CreationDate="2017-01-16T21:02:28.867" UserId="2892" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9546" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2291" RevisionGUID="ec3ae5e7-cb6e-4259-a320-c8f9e99c6248" CreationDate="2017-01-17T00:37:22.517" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved spelling in title and body." Text="Satan was once a good angel, but was expelled from heaven because of his pride.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question is: **What type of angel is he now? A Seraph, a Cherub, or something else?**" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9547" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2291" RevisionGUID="ec3ae5e7-cb6e-4259-a320-c8f9e99c6248" CreationDate="2017-01-17T00:37:22.517" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved spelling in title and body." Text="Is Satan a Seraph or a Cherub?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9555" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2299" RevisionGUID="abc6792f-ed4d-497c-84b3-f55794953c4a" CreationDate="2017-01-17T08:56:57.420" UserId="57" Text="[Brynhild's][1] suicide in the [Short Lay of Sigurd][2] may be of interest: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 47\. She was viewing  &#xD;&#xA;all she owned,  &#xD;&#xA;dead slaves  &#xD;&#xA;and chamber-women.  &#xD;&#xA;She put on her golden corslet  &#xD;&#xA;\- no good meditated \-  &#xD;&#xA;ere herself she pierced,  &#xD;&#xA;with the sword's point.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Poetic Edda/Sigurðarkviða hin skamma. (2012, April 17). In Wikisource . Retrieved 08:49, January 17, 2017, from https://en.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=Poetic_Edda/Sigur%C3%B0arkvi%C3%B0a_hin_skamma&amp;oldid=3807401&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although the shieldmaiden's motivation for taking her own life is not explicitly mentioned, shame for having a hand in arranging Sigurd's death - because he had taken another wife - is a possibility. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brynhildr&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigur%C3%B0arkvi%C3%B0a_hin_skamma" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9556" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="984" RevisionGUID="a7b986e1-2d95-4955-981e-e6c4b910f268" CreationDate="2017-01-17T08:59:33.633" UserId="467" Comment="added 9 characters in body" Text="I've heard this claim before and see no evidence for it in any Egyptian texts or iconography. Acharya S is unscholarly, makes many silly mistakes, and thus is unreliable; and Maher's people obviously got his bullet points from the Acharya piece to which you linked in your question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Acharya throws up numerous points hoping that some of them will stick, but they don't. She doesn't cite any Egyptian texts that support her view, which is not surprising because there are none and, I would argue, there can be none. This is because the idea that Horus can be crucified and resurrected is logically precluded by Egypt's mythology and religious thinking. While a person is alive (taking the king as the example), he is Horus. But once you die, you become Osiris and are not Horus, so it can only be Osiris who is resurrected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not having any Egyptian texts to rely upon, Acharya relies on images of Horus with his arms out from his sides, and the idea that the Egyptian ankh and Christ's cross are the same. See [www.stellarhousepublishing.com/washoruscrucified.html](http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/washoruscrucified.html) However, the ankh sign comes not from a cross but from a sandal strap (see Gardiner sign S34). In Egyptian, the ankh glyph is used to mean &quot;life&quot; as well as for the verb &quot;to live,&quot; but it never is an agency of death; in Egypt no one ever dies on an ankh, much less is crucified on one. There are no such images in the iconography, since crucifixion was not practiced in ancient Egypt (at least before Roman times). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further, a figure holding out his arms in itself says nothing about death or crucifixion, or a cross or Christ. Acharya's notion reminds me of Tertullian's laughable interpretation of Moses' surveying the Hebrews' (led by Joshua) battle against the Amalekites (Exod.17:8-13), where by standing on a hill and surveying the battle below, Moses (with help from Aaron and Hur) held his hands out to his sides and so caused the Hebrews to prevail. Tertullian claimed that this posture prefigured Christ and the cross, foretelling the cross through which Christ would be victorious over death and bring salvation. (Tertullian, *Against Marcion,* Book 3, Ch. 18.) No one would agree with such kinds of interpretations today. Yet Acharya relies on similarly ignorant/silly statements and wishful thinking by Church Fathers to support her claim.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the past it has sometimes been claimed (e.g., by Wallis Budge, in his *Legends of the Gods* (1912), see http://sacred-texts.com/egy/leg/leg11.htm (among Egyptologists, Budge is no longer considered reliable)) that, in a myth recited on the Metternich Stela now on exhibit at the Metropolitan Museum in New York, the child Horus is stung by a scorpion (which is Seth's doing), dies from the poison, and is resurrected by Thoth. But I know of no modern reading/translation of this text that has him dying rather than just unconscious and on the brink of death. The Stela's text itself says that &quot;the child was weak beyond answering,&quot; and &quot;refused the jar [of drink],&quot; which obviously means he is not dead. J.F. Borghouts, *Ancient Egyptian Texts* (1978), p. 63 (in lines 171-74 if the Stela). The scholarly discussions of the text accord with this interpretation. See Nora Scott, &quot;The Metternich Stela,&quot; The Metropolitan Museum of Art Bulletin 9.8:201-17 (1951) (Horus is &quot;unconscious&quot; (p. 213); Scott was Research Fellow in the Egyptian Art Department at the Met); John Nunn, Ancient Egyptian Medicine, p. 110 (1996) (Horus is &quot;unconscious&quot;); Robert Ritner, *The Mechanics of Ancient Egyptian Magical Practice,* p. 57 n. 266 (1993) (Horus is &quot;injured&quot;);  Geraldine Pinch, *Magic in Ancient Egypt,* pp. 144-45 (1994) (Horus is &quot;too weak and ill to suckle&quot; and has a &quot;sickness&quot;); Emily Teeter, *Religion and Ritual in Ancient Egypt,* p. 175 (2011) (Horus was was &quot;cured&quot; by Thoth, which does not seem like a raising from the dead). This interpretation makes sense in terms of the magical spells recited that invoked this myth to cure victims of snakebite, scorpion stings, etc., who are *still alive;* they are not being brought back from the dead. For this purpose, the recovery of Horus was being used as a parallel example, so it made sense that he too was only on the brink of death. It is like the Billy Crystal scene in *The Princess Bride,* where his character Miracle Max observes that Wesley is &quot;only mostly dead,&quot; and then proceeds to bring him back.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, to put it bluntly, the idea is a load of Horuss**t." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9558" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2301" RevisionGUID="e6b4131c-daa8-49ae-925a-495bbab3d9d5" CreationDate="2017-01-17T12:48:34.937" UserId="3244" Text="The answer, my dear Watson, is threefold.&#xA;&#xA;*[*&#xA;&#xA;**Fold: 1**&#xA;&#xA;{Artemis and Apollo were in the womb for seven months. Legends tell us that Apollo, after emerging from the womb when Leto was attended to by all Goddesses except Hera, immediately asked for some things like weapons and musical instruments, and was generally annoying. Artemis stayed with this guy for *seven months*. So, she got a very bad opinion of males.}&#xA;&#xA;**OR**&#xA;&#xA;**Fold: 2**&#xA;&#xA;{As legends say, Artemis, after coming out of the womb, helped to deliver Apollo. During this, she saw how much pain Leto was going through during childbirth. She became the Goddess of childbirth. This made her afraid of the pain which she would experience in having children.}&#xA;&#xA;**OR**&#xA;&#xA;**Fold: 3**&#xA;&#xA;{While going to Olympus from Delos, she heard stories of how badly the male Gods treated her wives, cheating on them every other week and so. Not to say how the young girls were married to those who offered the highest price, even if the groom was old, fat, or stinky.}&#xA;&#xA;*]*&#xA; &#xA;So, she made Zeus swear to let her stay a virgin.&#xA;&#xA;And so that she did not feel alone, ahe took about 80 maidens, Pan's best dogs, and a few other things, and went hunting. So she became the Goddess of it.&#xA;&#xA;And since Roman myths are basically Greek ones with names changed, Diana became that too.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Almost all my information was taken from *Percy Jackson and the Greek Gods (Rick Riordan)* and Wikipedia." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9559" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2302" RevisionGUID="e390595d-7e4a-42d8-9055-c66efbf9a969" CreationDate="2017-01-17T15:07:32.760" UserId="57" Text="There's an exhibit of two reconstructed Assyrian graves in the Pergamon Museum. &#xD;&#xA;The description on the display vaguely mentioned the &quot;Mesopotamians&quot; thought the underworld was very similar to the land of the living; vibrant cities where the dead would continue living (for lack of a better word) as they did before they died. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How close is that description to how the Assyrians imagined their underworld? Are there any tales that give a fuller picture of what happened to regular people (i.e. not gods, demigods, or kings) in the afterlife?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9560" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2302" RevisionGUID="e390595d-7e4a-42d8-9055-c66efbf9a969" CreationDate="2017-01-17T15:07:32.760" UserId="57" Text="How did the Assyrians imagine the underworld?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9561" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2302" RevisionGUID="e390595d-7e4a-42d8-9055-c66efbf9a969" CreationDate="2017-01-17T15:07:32.760" UserId="57" Text="|mesopotamia|underworld|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9562" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2303" RevisionGUID="475f8947-2168-4815-b324-ff2022c33f2c" CreationDate="2017-01-17T18:34:50.943" UserId="666" Text="Suicide and honor&#xD;&#xA;-----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This will not be answer that was asked for. Instead, I will argue that the concept of honour worked in a way that **suicide could not be an answer**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I will start by quoting Hávamál, verse 71:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The halt can manage a horse, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;the handless a flock,  &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The deaf be a doughty fighter,  &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;To be blind is better than to burn on a pyre: &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;There is nothing the dead can do.&lt;br&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Translation by [W H Auden &amp; P B Taylor][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Norse ideas of honour was not intrinsic: Honour was something you held in the eyes of others, and so was shame. You were not shamed by, for example, making a mistake. You were shamed if others treated you in a manner that indicated that you were not worthy of respect, or if you failed to demand the honour that should be due to you. If someone shamed you, the correct action would be to regain the honour in some way, typically by seeking revenge, or satisfaction through settlement or trial: any of these ways would prove that you were not someone to trifle with.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This, of course, means that suicide was generally not an acceptable way to redeem yourself, because it accomplishes nothing, or worse: it made you seem weak. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When revenge is impossible&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------&#xD;&#xA;Death might, however, be the result when revenge is impossible. Two good examples of this is Egill Skallagrímsson and Hrethel from *Beowulf*.&#xD;&#xA;The cases are similar in that they are not &quot;clear&quot; suicides; in both cases it is more a case of a lost will to live after accidents have claimed their sons. What makes it interesting here is that in both cases this is connected to a matter of honour: Hrethel because his son has fallen to an arrow from his brother in an hunting accident, which cannot be avenged, Egil because his son has drowned, and as he says in *Sonatorrek*, he does not have the might to avenge himself on the ocean. Egill is eventually turned back to life by his daughter, while Hrethel dies:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Heartsore, wearied, he turned away,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;from life's joys, choose God's light&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;and departed...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Beowulf*, lines 2468-2470, translated by Seamus Heaney&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of course, this is rather obviously influenced by Christian thoughts, so it should be taken with some salt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Suicide in battle&#xD;&#xA;---------------&#xD;&#xA;I will take an example from actual history: [Olaf Tryggvason][2], who jumped ship when he realised that he had lost the battle of Svolder. This was, of course, in no way pre-mediated. Afterwards, all his remaining men also jumped ship. Snorri does not offer any judgement of this action. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Conclusion&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;Taking also the account of Brynhilde from Yannis answer into account, I would say that suicide in general was a result of *grief*, not shame. Shame was ideally to be washed away by gaining honour through great deeds, and killing yourself did not count. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://web.archive.org/web/20050912100548/http://vta.gamall-steinn.org/havamal.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olaf_Tryggvason&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA; - For the discussion of honor as a general concept, I have mostly relied on Gro Steinsland, *Fornnordisk religion*, even if some parts of it are my own; as far as I can tell, there are at least no contradictions.&#xD;&#xA; - The analysis Of Egill and Hrethel is my own, even if there is not much interpretation needed: most of the stuff is explicitly spelled out.&#xD;&#xA; - For Olaf Tryggvasson, I rely on Snorri's *Heimskringla*. From what I understand, the suicide is also covered by Adam of Bremen and Saxo Grammaticus.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9563" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2303" RevisionGUID="f72b4176-0a7c-4263-864f-d427231ae481" CreationDate="2017-01-17T18:42:33.617" UserId="666" Comment="added 56 characters in body" Text="Suicide and honor&#xD;&#xA;-----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This will not be answer that was asked for. Instead, I will argue that the concept of honour worked in a way that **suicide could not be an answer**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I will start by quoting Hávamál, verse 71:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The halt can manage a horse, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;the handless a flock,  &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The deaf be a doughty fighter,  &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;To be blind is better than to burn on a pyre: &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;There is nothing the dead can do.&lt;br&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Translation by [W H Auden &amp; P B Taylor][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Norse ideas of honour was not intrinsic: Honour was something you held in the eyes of others, and so was shame. You were not shamed by, for example, making a mistake. You were shamed if others treated you in a manner that indicated that you were not worthy of respect, or if you failed to demand the honour that should be due to you. If someone shamed you, the correct action would be to regain the honour in some way, typically by seeking revenge, or satisfaction through settlement or trial: any of these ways would prove that you were not someone to trifle with.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This, of course, means that suicide was generally not an acceptable way to redeem yourself, because it accomplishes nothing, or worse: it made you seem weak. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When revenge is impossible&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------&#xD;&#xA;Death might, however, be the result when revenge is impossible. Two good examples of this is Egill Skallagrímsson and Hrethel from *Beowulf*.&#xD;&#xA;The cases are similar in that they are not &quot;clear&quot; suicides; in both cases it is more a case of a lost will to live after accidents have claimed their sons. What makes it interesting here is that in both cases this is connected to a matter of honour: Hrethel because his son has fallen to an arrow from his brother in an hunting accident, which cannot be avenged, Egil because his son has drowned, and as he says in *Sonatorrek*, he does not have the might to avenge himself on the ocean. Egill is eventually turned back to life by his daughter, while Hrethel dies:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Heartsore, wearied, he turned away,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;from life's joys, choose God's light&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;and departed...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Beowulf*, lines 2468-2470, translated by Seamus Heaney&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of course, this is rather obviously influenced by Christian thoughts, so it should be taken with some salt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Suicide in battle&#xD;&#xA;---------------&#xD;&#xA;I will take an example from actual history: [Olaf Tryggvason][2], who jumped ship when he realised that he had lost the battle of Svolder. This was, of course, in no way pre-mediated. Afterwards, all his remaining men also jumped ship. Snorri does not offer any judgement of this action. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Conclusion&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;Taking also the account of Brynhilde from Yannis answer into account, I would say that suicide in general was a result of *grief*, not shame. Shame was ideally to be washed away by gaining honour through great deeds, and killing yourself did not count. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://web.archive.org/web/20050912100548/http://vta.gamall-steinn.org/havamal.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olaf_Tryggvason&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA; - For the discussion of honor as a general concept, I have mostly relied on Gro Steinsland, *Fornnordisk religion*, even if some parts of it are my own: seh deos not specifically discuss suicide, for example. As far as I can tell, there are at least no contradictions.&#xD;&#xA; - The analysis Of Egill and Hrethel is my own, even if there is not much interpretation needed: most of the stuff is explicitly spelled out.&#xD;&#xA; - For Olaf Tryggvasson, I rely on Snorri's *Heimskringla*. From what I understand, the suicide is also covered by Adam of Bremen and Saxo Grammaticus.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9564" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1499" RevisionGUID="debae5d7-8eb9-45e2-992c-27dce61fc97f" CreationDate="2017-01-17T21:31:57.153" UserId="398" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="*Ouranos* (Roman *Uranus*) is the Greek (night) sky god. You will find him at the beginning of Hesiod's *Theogony*. Wikipedia has [an extensive list][1] of sky gods, among whom you will find the Egyptian goddess Nut.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky_deity" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9567" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2282" RevisionGUID="3fcecc4e-fed5-4a54-a4b7-3e4270864f72" CreationDate="2017-01-18T03:27:44.083" UserId="3350" Comment="added 294 characters in body" Text="Chapter 3 of the Volsungs Saga:&#xA;&gt; The tale tells that great fires were made endlong the hall, and the great tree aforesaid stood midmost thereof, withal folk say that, whenas men sat by the fires in the evening, a certain man came into the hall unknown of aspect to all men; and suchlike array he had, that over him was a spotted cloak, and he was bare-foot, and had linen-breeches knit tight even unto the bone, and he had a sword in his hand as he went up to the Branstock, and a slouched hat upon his head: huge he was, and seeming-ancient, and one-eyed. So he drew his sword and smote it into the tree-trunk so that it sank in up to the hilts; and all held back from greeting the man. Then he took up the word, and said-- &quot;Whoso draweth this sword from this stock, shall have the same as a gift from me, and shall find in good sooth(truth) that never bare he better sword in hand than is this.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;Odin had originally traveled in disguise and stuck the sword into the tree himself. After many others tried, Sigmund was the only one to be able to pull the sword from the tree. &#xA;&#xA;In Chapter 11 &#xA;&gt; Now was that battle fierce and fell, and though Sigmund were old, yet most hardily he fought, and was ever the foremost of his men; no shield or byrny might hold against him, and he went ever through the ranks of his foemen on that day, and no man might see how things would fare between them; many an arrow and many a spear was aloft in air that day, and so his spae-wrights wrought for him that he got no wound, and none can tell over the tale of those who fell before him, and both his arms were red with blood, even to the shoulders.&#xA;&#xA;Odin is coming to take the sword back to give it to someone else. Sigmund attacks Odin and Odin shatters his sword(this being the &quot;mortal blow&quot; I was referring to). The sword was what gave Sigmund his abilities and having it broken was fating him to death. It's vague to mention whether Sigmund knew it was Odin or not. Although Odin being in disguise might suggest that Sigmund had no idea who it was.&#xA;&#xA;Odin doesn't need a reason. The belief at the time was that fate wasn't something that men could control, that was what the Norns and Völva did. It was nothing more than Sigmund's time. He had lived a long life and had many great accomplishments and it was time for the sword to be passed on. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9568" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2304" RevisionGUID="c74dd255-b611-4f65-ad84-fd78018cdab9" CreationDate="2017-01-18T05:09:51.350" UserId="3244" Text="First things first. I do *not* agree with Ken Graham's answer. It is incorrect. I shall shortly tell why.&#xA;&#xA;The Shivling is a form in which Shiva/Mahadev is worshipped. [The Shivling with Yoni][1]&#xA;&#xA;In the image you see the universal design for a Shivling. It always constitutes a Yoni. Now, this may be horribly scarring: the cylindrical figure there is called the *lingam*. In Hindi, it means 'Penis', while *yoni* means womb or vagina. *It is a representation of Shiva's penis and Shakti/Parvati's womb.&#xA;&#xA;Now you may ask why Hindus worship such a thing. The reason is as follows.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Worship is done in two forms. With the outer fire, Agni, called yagna, or with the inner fire, Tapa, called Tapasya. The liquid of life is called Rasa. It exists in many forms. When a man completely stops the flow of rasa through himself, he ignites the inner fire, Tapa, and becomes a Yogi. Such a Yogi was Shiva. And when a most powerful demon broke through the ranks of Devas the celestial beings, who had gotten a boon that he could be killed by naught but a newborn child. And when Amravati the city of Indra fell to his hands, the Devas went to Shiva. Being deep in meditation he did not hear their pleas, but Shakti his consort assured them that help would come. And then Shakti lying down on top of the Mahadev inserted his *lingam* into her *yoni*, and immediately Shiva spit out his fiery seed. It was taken hold of by Agni the Fire God, who unable to bear its radiance handed it over to Ganga the holy river of cool waters. When her waters were unable to cool it down Ganga placed Shiva's radiant seed in the Sara forest. Here, the six Krittikas who were passing by were drawn to it by its radiance, and here it became Skanda. The Krittikas encaptured by the child's beauty nursed it, until Agni the Fire God and Ganga of the cool waters fought for him with them. Thus they went to Shakti Shiva's consort, upon seeing whom Skanda sprouted six heads to show his appreciation of the Krittikas. And Shakti said, &quot;For you have been nursed by them you shall be called Kartikeya.&quot; And the newborn Kartikeya, being born of Shiva's seed, was most powerful, and leading the Devas to battle mounted on a peacock, holding a divine leaf-shaped spear, he inserted the spear into the Asura's stomach who could be killed only by a newborn even as the Devas fought with the Asura's lesser armies, thus bringing them victory. And hereforth he was crowned the God of War and Victory, and Commander of the Devas in Battle.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;The main point I am trying to show here is that sexual acts were not frowned upon in Hindu Society.&#xA;&#xA;Now, we know that temples were painted with scenes of Gods. So was the scene of the birth of Kartikeya painted. And then, they-did-it-we-will-too type of thinkng, and other factors led to the frequency of Sexual Imagery we see in temples today.&#xA;&#xA;PS Another source of Sexual Imagery is Krishna, the eighth Avatar of Vishnu. There is a story about how he stole the clothes of bathing Gopis and made them stand naked, while eyeing them with only appreciation, no lust. This was because his actions were *leela*, neither virtue nor vice, and which did not leave records in Chitragupta's register.&#xA;&#xA;All of the information here comes from &#xA;&#xA; &#xA; &#xA; &#xA; &#xA; &#xA; - *Myth=Mithya* - Devdutt Pattnaik (**Do not read this book! It will confuse you like hell before killing you in the middle of the night**)&#xA; &#xA; &#xA; &#xA; &#xA; &#xA; - *Jaya - An Illustrated Version of the Mahabharata* - Devdutt Pattnaik&#xA; &#xA; &#xA; &#xA; &#xA; - *Sita - An Illustrated Version of the Ramayana* - Devdutt Pattnaik&#xA; &#xA; &#xA; &#xA; - *The Pregnant King* - Devdutt Pattnaik&#xA; &#xA; &#xA; - My Maternal Uncle&#xA; &#xA; - My Grandmother&#xA;&#xA; &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS73swzm85GG40MuF8fsmGlHo0BSQvM8Ie1wIYefUZI3mXEK9eqAg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9575" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2305" RevisionGUID="5e8ff0f2-1901-4260-99dd-cc083d6b7a18" CreationDate="2017-01-18T17:14:50.267" UserId="2892" Text="Does it purely have to do with [ahimsa](https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahimsa) or is it also partly based on the status of [Nandi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nandi_(bull))?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(If Nandi is a factor, does this also bear on the protected status of monkeys per [Hanuman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanuman)'s assistance to Rama?)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it possible that potential food availability issues due to India's large population could have provided some impetus towards general vegetarianism? (i.e. it takes more calories to raise a cow for meat than the calories produced by te meat.  Certain Hebrew Kosher laws, such as the prohibition of shellfish which spoil quickly, almost certainly had purposes beyond religious in a pre-refrigeration era.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9576" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2305" RevisionGUID="5e8ff0f2-1901-4260-99dd-cc083d6b7a18" CreationDate="2017-01-18T17:14:50.267" UserId="2892" Text="Why are cows sacred in India?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9577" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2305" RevisionGUID="5e8ff0f2-1901-4260-99dd-cc083d6b7a18" CreationDate="2017-01-18T17:14:50.267" UserId="2892" Text="|hindu|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9578" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2305" RevisionGUID="baca81db-8600-4b23-9286-16a30cac44b6" CreationDate="2017-01-18T17:27:51.590" UserId="2892" Comment="added 11 characters in body" Text="Does it purely have to do with [ahimsa](https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahimsa) or is it also partly based on the status of [Nandi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nandi_(bull))?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(If Nandi is a factor, does this also bear on the protected status of monkeys per [Hanuman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanuman)'s assistance to Rama?)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it possible that potential food availability issues due to India's large population could have provided some impetus towards general vegetarianism? (i.e. it takes more calories to raise a cow for meat than the calories produced by the meat.  Certain Hebrew Kosher laws, such as the prohibition of shellfish, which spoil quickly, almost certainly had purposes beyond simply religious in the pre-refrigeration era.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9579" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2305" RevisionGUID="5c4d0f56-ebb0-44cb-a6db-30e324fe7367" CreationDate="2017-01-18T20:44:34.823" UserId="2892" Comment="added a couple other possible sources of the idea" Text="Does it purely have to do with [ahimsa](https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahimsa) or is it also partly based on the status of [Nandi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nandi_(bull))?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(If Nandi is a factor, does this also bear on the protected status of monkeys per [Hanuman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanuman)'s assistance to Rama?)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've also heard it related to [Kamadhenu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamadhenu) the divine mother of all cows, and Krishna as the child protector of cows in the [Harivamsa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harivamsa).  How much of a factor are these dieties?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it possible that potential food availability issues due to India's large population could have provided some impetus towards general vegetarianism? (i.e. it takes more calories to raise a cow for meat than the calories produced by the meat.  Certain Hebrew Kosher laws, such as the prohibition of shellfish, which spoil quickly, almost certainly had purposes beyond simply religious in the pre-refrigeration era.)  The story of [Prithvi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prithvi) milked by [Prithu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prithu) to save the world from famine is certainly scarcity related." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9584" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="1603" RevisionGUID="c7d81638-a6cf-4cd9-a613-8ca07eb300c3" CreationDate="2017-01-18T23:02:47.797" UserId="-1" Comment="101" Text="{&quot;OriginalQuestionIds&quot;:[697],&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:31,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Robert Longson&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:58,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Vixen Populi&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;C. M. Weimer&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:1241,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ken Graham&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="9585" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="2241" RevisionGUID="5bd3abcd-52b3-440f-88e2-2edf190f0459" CreationDate="2017-01-19T08:29:32.433" UserId="-1" Comment="102" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:62,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Hamlet&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;C. M. Weimer&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:1241,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ken Graham&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:2774,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Gibet&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="9586" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2291" RevisionGUID="5dae8797-7e4b-4219-b8b6-1c95e4468e2e" CreationDate="2017-01-19T15:18:01.640" UserId="3230" Comment="reverted some of the edits. no reason to capitalize seraph and cherub, and the bold was excessive" Text="Satan was once an angel, but was expelled from heaven because of his pride.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What type of angel is he now? A seraph, a cherub, or something else?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9587" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2291" RevisionGUID="5dae8797-7e4b-4219-b8b6-1c95e4468e2e" CreationDate="2017-01-19T15:18:01.640" UserId="3230" Comment="reverted some of the edits. no reason to capitalize seraph and cherub, and the bold was excessive" Text="Is Satan a seraph or a cherub?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9588" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2289" RevisionGUID="47c67dff-d00a-4848-8a11-ee867cb8fc2f" CreationDate="2017-01-19T15:19:40.533" UserId="3230" Comment="reverted the pointless bold introduced in previous edit" Text="In Canto XXXIV Lucifer is presented as a winged giant with three faces: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Oh, what a wonder it appeared to me  &#xD;&#xA;when I perceived three faces on his head.  &#xD;&#xA;The first, in front, was red in color.  &#xD;&#xA;Another two he had, each joined with this,  &#xD;&#xA;above the midpoint of each shoulder,  &#xD;&#xA;and all the three united at the crest.  &#xD;&#xA;The one on the right was a whitish yellow,  &#xD;&#xA;while the left-hand one was tinted like the people  &#xD;&#xA;living at the sources of the Nile.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_Divina Commedia, edited by Giorgio Petrocchi and published by Mondadori_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why does Dante portray Lucifer as three-faced?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9590" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2307" RevisionGUID="dd13098a-ec12-4937-ae94-da74057213cd" CreationDate="2017-01-19T16:07:09.040" UserId="3230" Text="I think the primordial Titan Oceanus also qualifies. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ocean might seem like an odd choice for a god of the cosmos, until you consider pre-classic era Greeks believed in a flat earth floating in an infinite ocean (personified by Oceanus). This infinite ocean was also where the heavenly bodies rose from and set into, according to Homer: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Homer, Iliad 5. 10 ff:   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;The star of the waning summer [Seirios (Sirius) the Dog-Star] who beyond all stars rises bathed in Okeanos (the Ocean-Stream) to glitter with brilliance.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Homer, Iliad 7. 422 ff:  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Now Helios (the Sun) of a new day struck on the ploughlands, rising out of the quiet water and the deep stream of Okeanos to climb the sky.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Homer, Iliad 8. 485 ff:  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;And now the shining light of the sun (helios) was dipped in the Okeanos trailing black night (nyx) across the grain-giving land.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Homer, Iliad 18. 43 ff:  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;[Hephaistos (Hephaestus) depicts the cosmos on the shield of Akhilleus (Achilles) :] He made the earth upon it, and the sky, and the sea's water, and the tireless sun, and the moon waxing into her fullness, and on it all the constellations that festoon the heavens, the Pleiades and the Hyades and the strength of Orion and the Bear, whom men give also the name of the Wagon, who turns about in a fixed place and looks at Orion and she alone is never plunged in the wash of Okeanos.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Quotes from here: http://www.theoi.com/Kosmos/Okeanos.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9593" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2307" RevisionGUID="dc2465f8-4d63-4ab5-87e8-f6ef6d36ae2e" CreationDate="2017-01-19T17:10:49.520" UserId="3230" Comment="added 34 characters in body" Text="I think the primordial Titan Oceanus qualifies. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ocean might seem like an odd choice for a god of the cosmos, until you consider pre-classic era Greeks believed in a [flat earth][1] floating in an infinite ocean (personified by Oceanus). This infinite ocean was also where the heavenly bodies rose from and set into, according to Homer: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Homer, Iliad 5. 10 ff:   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;The star of the waning summer [Seirios (Sirius) the Dog-Star] who beyond all stars rises bathed in Okeanos (the Ocean-Stream) to glitter with brilliance.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Homer, Iliad 7. 422 ff:  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Now Helios of a new day struck on the ploughlands, rising out of the quiet water and the deep stream of Okeanos to climb the sky.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Homer, Iliad 8. 485 ff:  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;And now the shining light of the sun  was dipped in the Okeanos trailing black night across the grain-giving land.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Homer, Iliad 18. 43 ff:  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;[Hephaistos depicts the cosmos on the shield of Akhilleus:] He made the earth upon it, and the sky, and the sea's water, and the tireless sun, and the moon waxing into her fullness, and on it all the constellations that festoon the heavens, the Pleiades and the Hyades and the strength of Orion and the Bear, whom men give also the name of the Wagon, who turns about in a fixed place and looks at Orion and she alone is never plunged in the wash of Okeanos.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The quotes are from here: http://www.theoi.com/Kosmos/Okeanos.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth#Ancient_Mediterranean" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9594" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2308" RevisionGUID="a398ca9d-0346-4d80-8373-aeae63415f73" CreationDate="2017-01-19T17:41:16.513" UserId="2892" Text="In my younger days I was convinced the story of Ragnarök was influenced by the New Testament's Armageddon.  As I started to learn about the existence of pagan ideas in Christianity, I began to wonder if the direction of this influence may be reversed.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Obviously, the textual appearance of Ragnarök is some centuries later than the drafting of the Book of Revelation, but the idea of Ragnarök surely predates its recording in the Eddas, whereas such a concept is not found in the Old Testament and is not associated with Jewish mythology and thought.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, as much as it was influenced by Old Testament ideas, Christianity can be said to have absorbed aspects of paganism.  The obvious link is in the concept of god embodied, antithetical to Jewish ideas, and the introduction of a dying/resurrected god (most closely linked to Dionysus per the Eucharist, although the bread aspect is related in Greek mythology to Persephone, who also goes to the underworld and returns.)  Christian holidays supplant the earlier, pagan celebrations, but may maintain some of their symbols. More recently, we see the absorption of pagan gods in the form of Saints, such as with the West African and Caribbean religions.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So my question is, what do we know about Ragnarök prior to the Eddas, and how supportable is the idea that Ragnarök or something similar influenced ideas about the end of the world as expressed in the Book of Revelations?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9595" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2308" RevisionGUID="a398ca9d-0346-4d80-8373-aeae63415f73" CreationDate="2017-01-19T17:41:16.513" UserId="2892" Text="Did Ragnarök influence Armageddon?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9596" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2308" RevisionGUID="a398ca9d-0346-4d80-8373-aeae63415f73" CreationDate="2017-01-19T17:41:16.513" UserId="2892" Text="|norse|christianity|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9597" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2309" RevisionGUID="3ee1d195-2fa2-481f-bdba-1dc695c18610" CreationDate="2017-01-19T19:26:21.983" UserId="57" Text="The Book of Revelations presents us with a linear cosmology, a straight road that inevitably leads to the [Messianic Age][1]. This pattern is shared by all Abrahamic tales of the end times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ragnarök, on the other hand, is one point of a circular cosmology, a never ending cycle of decay and rebirth. I believe this is a crucial theological difference, one that renders the two stories incompatible at their core, even if they do share a number of other similarities.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Zoroastrian [Frashokereti][2] may be a much more likely candidate for an inspiration of the Apocalypse as its similarly linear and a lot closer both in time and in space. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Age&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frashokereti" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9598" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="858" RevisionGUID="b45b2358-0456-4389-b01a-0c652ad7f8e0" CreationDate="2017-01-19T19:27:14.080" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|islam|eschatology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9599" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2308" RevisionGUID="ab3182dd-686d-4ea4-a08f-309480f22c1a" CreationDate="2017-01-19T19:27:28.610" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|christianity|eschatology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9600" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2309" RevisionGUID="c56ff6c2-1dfc-459a-ba62-638ca2b41b34" CreationDate="2017-01-19T19:33:35.397" UserId="57" Comment="added 13 characters in body" Text="The Book of Revelations presents us with a linear cosmology, a straight road that inevitably leads to the [Messianic Age][1]. This pattern is shared by all Abrahamic tales of the end times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ragnarök, on the other hand, is one point of a circular cosmology, a never ending cycle of decay and rebirth. I believe this is a crucial theological difference, one that renders the two stories incompatible at their core, even if they do share a number of other similarities.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Zoroastrian [Frashokereti][2] may be a much more likely candidate for an inspiration of the Apocalypse. It is similarly linear and the two stories are far closer in time and in space. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Age&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frashokereti" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9601" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2310" RevisionGUID="1d1df557-412b-4d6a-9ecc-53fb3b278994" CreationDate="2017-01-19T19:50:00.560" UserId="2892" Text="There are several conflicting accounts of the death of baby Scamandrius (aka [Astyanax](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astyanax)), son [Hector](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hector) and [Andromache](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromache), but several important sources, including Pausinias [[Descriptions of Greece, 10.25.9](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0160:book=10:chapter=25)], Ovid [[Metamorphoses, Book 13, 399-428](http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph13.htm#486898047)] and perhaps most movingly, Euripides in The Trojan Woman [[709 ff.](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0124%3Acard%3D709)], agree as to this particular manner of death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Infanticide was not unknown in Ancient Greece.  [Oedipus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oedipus) was famously exposed as an infant to be devoured by wild beasts, an event from which he takes his name.  Euripides has Agamemnon infamously killing Clytmnestra's child from her previous marriage by dashing the infant to the earth [[Iphigenia at Aulis, 1150-52](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0108%3Acard%3D1146)], a similar fate to Astyanax.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But my real qustion is  why the wall?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My instincts lead me to believe it may have been some form of attempted sacrifice to Poseidon, [who raised the mighty walls of Troy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poseidon#The_walls_of_Troy), as the Achaeans were preparing for the perilous sea voyage back to Greece.  (I say attempted, as it did not seem to work.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Support for a placatory ritual may be found in the bookending of the Trojan War with the dual sacrifices of [Iphigenia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iphigenia_in_Aulis) and [Polyxena](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyxena) to raise the winds to sail to Troy and back. Further support for the ritual nature of the slaying may be found in [Calchas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calchas) who calls for the sacrifice of Iphigenia, and likewise calls for the death of Astyanax in this very particular manner in the Seneca's [Troades](http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaTroades.html) [see line 634 ff. in particular]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Since the boy has forestalled the lustral rites we owed the walls and cannot fulfil the priest’s command, snatched from us by a better fate, the word of Calchas is that only thus can a peaceful homecoming be granted to our ships, if the waves be appeased...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm interested in any thoughts, observations, support of this hypothesis, or competing theories. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So why was Astyanax thrown from the wall?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9602" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2310" RevisionGUID="1d1df557-412b-4d6a-9ecc-53fb3b278994" CreationDate="2017-01-19T19:50:00.560" UserId="2892" Text="Why was Astyanyx thrown from the wall?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9603" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2310" RevisionGUID="1d1df557-412b-4d6a-9ecc-53fb3b278994" CreationDate="2017-01-19T19:50:00.560" UserId="2892" Text="|greek|trojan-war|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9604" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2310" RevisionGUID="828f2771-f7e1-410b-9e0e-80b9f39e9935" CreationDate="2017-01-19T19:55:27.613" UserId="57" Comment="edited body; edited title" Text="There are several conflicting accounts of the death of baby Scamandrius (aka [Astyanax](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astyanax)), son [Hector](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hector) and [Andromache](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromache), but several important sources, including Pausanias [[Descriptions of Greece, 10.25.9](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0160:book=10:chapter=25)], Ovid [[Metamorphoses, Book 13, 399-428](http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph13.htm#486898047)] and perhaps most movingly, Euripides in The Trojan Woman [[709 ff.](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0124%3Acard%3D709)], agree as to this particular manner of death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Infanticide was not unknown in Ancient Greece.  [Oedipus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oedipus) was famously exposed as an infant to be devoured by wild beasts, an event from which he takes his name.  Euripides has Agamemnon infamously killing Clytmnestra's child from her previous marriage by dashing the infant to the earth [[Iphigenia at Aulis, 1150-52](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0108%3Acard%3D1146)], a similar fate to Astyanax.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But my real qustion is  why the wall?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My instincts lead me to believe it may have been some form of attempted sacrifice to Poseidon, [who raised the mighty walls of Troy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poseidon#The_walls_of_Troy), as the Achaeans were preparing for the perilous sea voyage back to Greece.  (I say attempted, as it did not seem to work.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Support for a placatory ritual may be found in the bookending of the Trojan War with the dual sacrifices of [Iphigenia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iphigenia_in_Aulis) and [Polyxena](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyxena) to raise the winds to sail to Troy and back. Further support for the ritual nature of the slaying may be found in [Calchas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calchas) who calls for the sacrifice of Iphigenia, and likewise calls for the death of Astyanax in this very particular manner in the Seneca's [Troades](http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaTroades.html) [see line 634 ff. in particular]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Since the boy has forestalled the lustral rites we owed the walls and cannot fulfil the priest’s command, snatched from us by a better fate, the word of Calchas is that only thus can a peaceful homecoming be granted to our ships, if the waves be appeased...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm interested in any thoughts, observations, support of this hypothesis, or competing theories. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So why was Astyanax thrown from the wall?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9605" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2310" RevisionGUID="828f2771-f7e1-410b-9e0e-80b9f39e9935" CreationDate="2017-01-19T19:55:27.613" UserId="57" Comment="edited body; edited title" Text="Why was Astyanax thrown from the wall?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9606" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2308" RevisionGUID="3bdfe8de-3ee8-4a5a-8f6e-bb3bb18dec13" CreationDate="2017-01-19T20:01:25.573" UserId="2892" Comment="Amended to point out some basic similarities" Text="In my younger days I was convinced the story of Ragnarök was influenced by the New Testament's Armageddon.  As I started to learn about the existence of pagan ideas in Christianity, I began to wonder if the direction of this influence may be reversed.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Obviously, the textual appearance of Ragnarök is some centuries later than the drafting of the Book of Revelation, but the idea of Ragnarök surely predates its recording in the Eddas, whereas such a concept is not found in the Old Testament and is not associated with Jewish mythology and thought.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, as much as it was influenced by Old Testament ideas, Christianity can be said to have absorbed aspects of paganism.  The obvious link is in the concept of god embodied, antithetical to Jewish ideas, and the introduction of a dying/resurrected god (most closely linked to Dionysus per the Eucharist, although the bread aspect is related in Greek mythology to Persephone, who also goes to the underworld and returns.)  Christian holidays supplant the earlier, pagan celebrations, but may maintain some of their symbols. More recently, we see the absorption of pagan gods in the form of Saints, such as with the West African and Caribbean religions.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarities with Revelations/Ragnarok may be said to include the Sun being swallowed up, a great serpent rising from the sea, the dead rising, fire raining down upon the world, and a horn sounding to signal the onset of the end.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So my question is, what do we know about Ragnarök prior to the Eddas, and how supportable is the idea that Ragnarök or something similar influenced ideas about the end of the world as expressed in the Book of Revelations?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9607" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2311" RevisionGUID="e24e9051-c95d-4c00-a9c9-2679000b2b5a" CreationDate="2017-01-19T20:17:17.723" UserId="2892" Text="He is the father of many gods, but certainly not all, and he is not the creator of the Norse universe. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is this epithet merely an honorific, referencing Odin's status as patriarch, or are there other meanings?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9608" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2311" RevisionGUID="e24e9051-c95d-4c00-a9c9-2679000b2b5a" CreationDate="2017-01-19T20:17:17.723" UserId="2892" Text="Why is Odin called the Allfather?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9609" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2311" RevisionGUID="e24e9051-c95d-4c00-a9c9-2679000b2b5a" CreationDate="2017-01-19T20:17:17.723" UserId="2892" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9614" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2313" RevisionGUID="2303e8b9-b45c-412f-8d70-2e161878e48d" CreationDate="2017-01-20T10:45:57.727" UserId="57" Text="Snorri Sturluson comments on this in the *Gylfaginning* (emphasis mine):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 9\. Then said Ganglere: Much had been done, it seemed to me, when heaven and earth were made, when sun and moon were set in their places, and when days were marked out; but whence came the people who inhabit the world? Har answered as follows: As Bor's sons went along the sea-strand, they found two trees. These trees they took up and made men of them. The first gave them spirit and life; the second endowed them with reason and power of motion; and the third gave them form, speech, hearing and eyesight. They gave them clothes and names; the man they called Ask, and the woman Embla. From them all mankind is descended, and a dwelling-place was given them under Midgard. In the next place, the sons of Bor made for themselves in the middle of the world a burg, which is called Asgard, and which we call Troy. There dwelt the gods and their race, and thence were wrought many tidings and adventures, both on earth and in the sky. In Asgard is a place called Hlidskjalf, and when Odin seated himself there in the high-seat, he saw over the whole world, and what every man was doing, and he knew all things that he saw. His wife hight Frigg, and she was the daughter of Fjorgvin, and from their offspring are descended the race that we call asas, who inhabited Asgard the old and the realms that lie about it, and all that race are known to be gods. **And for this reason odin is called Alfather, that he is the father of all gods and men, and of all things that were made by him and by his might.** Jord (earth) was his daughter and his wife; with her he begat his first son, and that is Asa-Thor. To him was given force and strength, whereby he conquers all things quick.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Prose Edda/Gylfaginning. (2016, February 8). In Wikisource . Retrieved 09:06, January 20, 2017, from https://en.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning&amp;oldid=6105167&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Earlier on, Har (yet another manifestation of Odin) informs us that the epithet is Odin's name in the language of the gods, and thus the first in the [very long line of his names][1] (emphasis mine): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 3\. Ganglere then made the following question: Who is the highest and oldest of all the gods? Made answer Har: **Alfather he is called in our tongue, but in Asgard of old he had twelve names. The first is Alfather, the second is Herran or Herjan, the third Nikar or Hnikar, the fourth Nikuz or Hnikud, the fifth Fjolner, the sixth Oske, the seventh Ome, the eighth Biflide or Biflinde, the ninth Svidar, the tenth Svidrer, the eleventh Vidrer, the twelfth Jalg or Jalk.** Ganglere asks again: Where is this god? What can he do? What mighty works has he accomplished? Answered Har: He lives from everlasting to everlasting, rules over all his realm, and governs all things, great and small. Then remarked Jafnhar: He made heaven and earth, the air and all things in them. Thride added: What is most important, he made man and gave him a spirit, which shall live, and never perish, though the body may turn to dust or burn to ashes. All who live a life of virtue shall dwell with him in Gimle or Vingolf. The wicked, on the other hand, go to Hel, and from her to Niflhel, that is, down into the ninth world. Then asked Ganglere: What was he doing before heaven and earth were made? Har gave answer: Then was he with the frost-giants.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odin did produce [a great number of sons][2], but he certainly didn't father every god in Norse mythology. And although he did have a hand in the creation of man, he wasn't the only god involved in it. Hoenir and Lodurr also played a role in the tale of Ask and Embla. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why Allfather then? I think it would be a fair to assume that the epithet is more of an honorific title, emphasizing Odin's role as leader of the Aesir, patriarch of gods and men. It is the simpler answer, and the one that would be correct even if there was a deeper meaning to the name.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, at least four of the Aesir (Heimdallr, Hod, Tyr, Bragi) are only mentioned as sons of Odin by Snorri. Whether this is by accident or a conscious effort to emphasize Odin's role as a father figure and elevate him even further from the rest of the gods is anyone's guess. But a case could perhaps be made that Snorri's general tendency of presenting Odin as creator and omnipotent may be a sign of Christian influence. Placing Odin firmly above everyone and everything else could possibly be a step towards reconciling the Norse and Christian traditions. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lastly, the epithet may very well be a reminder of Odin's simpler past. Tacitus records Odin worship amongst the Germanic people in the late 1st century, and for all we know Odin may have indeed been the father of all gods of a presumably far simpler Germanic pantheon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_names_of_Odin&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sons_of_Odin" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9615" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2311" RevisionGUID="bf71049e-d186-4c01-8b35-cfab3825d289" CreationDate="2017-01-20T10:46:20.297" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|odin|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9616" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2314" RevisionGUID="15ecbc84-d254-470e-9582-9db521d3eb5a" CreationDate="2017-01-20T12:38:39.340" UserId="3367" Text="In shamanic cultures a child born with something special: hair, tooth, extra toe or finger or blood clot is considered as special sign. In Hungarian mythology these children are considered as _táltos_. They are born leaders mostly in spiritual sense. Also some children born with a blood clot or placenta covering a part of their body has a special meaning. The right hand being involved is usually a sign of leader ship. (When the head is covered it means that either the child can communicate outside the our physical world or means great intellect.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9617" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2315" RevisionGUID="17a80006-2e4a-424e-8b40-979636637352" CreationDate="2017-01-20T18:13:00.687" UserId="42" Text="The narrative villifying Cao Cao predates Luo Guanzhong's work by a wide margin. His slant against Cao Wei is a product of his culture's bias, rather than the cause of it (though it likely did serve to solidify that bias).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Han dynasty is seen as something of a golden age. It represented a time of prosperity, and technological and social advancement. To this day, the largest (by a huge margin) Chinese ethnic group is referred to as &quot;Han&quot;. The fall of the Han occupies a similar space to western culture's sack of Rome. Following it came a long period of violence and corruption. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, the usurpers of the Han might naturally be viewed negatively, as the ones who ushered in a dark age. While Cao Cao may not have officially usurped the Han Emperor's throne, his son Cao Pi did, and many view the emperor at the time as little more than a puppet. I don't think many would disagree with the assertion that Cao Cao, at the height of his power, was *more powerful* than the Emperor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of course, being the effective victor, during the Jin dynasty Cao Wei was viewed as the legitimate successor to the Han. The view of history favoring the legitimacy of Shu Han may have started to become established as early as the Tang dynasty, following the An Lushan Rebellion. But appears to be particularly clearly established in the Southern Song with the [*Zizhi Tongjian*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zizhi_Tongjian), and especially the Yuan dynasty with the *Sanguozhi Pinghua*, a collection of plays clearly glorifying Shu Han coming from the Yuan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On whether Cao Cao *deserves* his reputation, that's a matter of opinion, and I can only provide my own. I’m reminded though, of the opening of Dan Carlin’s &quot;Wrath of Khans&quot; series. He talks about so called historical arsonists, sweeping away the old to make way for the new, fueling advancement, and maybe, but he implores us: &quot;Don't lose track of the bodies&quot;. Cao Cao takes significant responsibility for one of the most vicious and deadly conflicts in history. It reduced the population in China to a fraction of that of the later Han, with an estimated 34-40 million dead, out of a population in the later Han of around 56 million. Beyond the romanticized strategies and battles, his forces are also responsible for massacre and slaughter on a (then) unprecedented scale. So whatever conclusion you may draw about his character or impact, *don’t lose track of the bodies*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;None of which is to necessarily say that his opponents don’t deserve their share of the “credit”, by the way." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9618" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2314" RevisionGUID="22809991-65b0-4a8f-b139-8ed3715b3c77" CreationDate="2017-01-20T18:14:43.163" UserId="3367" Comment="corrected spelling" Text="In shamanic cultures a child born with something special: hair, tooth, extra toe or finger or blood clot is considered as special sign. In Hungarian mythology these children are considered as _táltos_. They are born leaders mostly in a spiritual sense. Also some children born with a blood clot or placenta covering a part of their body has a special meaning. The right hand being involved is usually a sign of leadership. (When the head is covered it means that either the child can communicate outside the our physical world or means great intellect.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9623" PostHistoryTypeId="12" PostId="2315" RevisionGUID="cb31b24b-ebd6-46c2-9bd2-5eb675cc8b79" CreationDate="2017-01-20T20:35:35.743" UserId="42" Comment="via Vote" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:42,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;femtoRgon&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="9624" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2308" RevisionGUID="d796572d-9382-4fe2-a308-bd1ea91fc785" CreationDate="2017-01-20T21:50:28.000" UserId="2892" Comment="added a note about Hellenization and migration of the Greek people into the region " Text="In my younger days I was convinced the story of Ragnarök was influenced by the New Testament's Armageddon.  As I started to learn about the existence of pagan ideas in Christianity, I began to wonder if the direction of this influence may be reversed.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Obviously, the textual appearance of Ragnarök is some centuries later than the drafting of the Book of Revelation, but the idea of Ragnarök surely predates its recording in the Eddas, whereas such a concept is not found in the Old Testament and is not associated with Jewish mythology and thought.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, as much as it was influenced by Old Testament ideas, Christianity can be said to have absorbed aspects of paganism.  The obvious link is in the concept of god embodied, antithetical to Jewish ideas, and the introduction of a dying/resurrected god (most closely linked to Dionysus per the Eucharist, although the bread aspect is related in Greek mythology to Persephone, who also goes to the underworld and returns.)  Christian holidays supplant the earlier, pagan celebrations, but may maintain some of their symbols. More recently, we see the absorption of pagan gods in the form of Saints, such as with the West African and Caribbean religions.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's also important to note that the region where Christianity arose was [Hellenized](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenization) during that period, and exerted an influence on segments of Jewish culture.  Greek was the *[lingua franca](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koin%C3%A9_language)* of those regions, and it is believed Ancient Greeks themselves had migrated to the region from parts north.  Paul travelled extensively in Greece to spread the gospel, notably before the Book of Revelations is believed to have been authored, and the identity of the author seems to be disputed, making the question of influences potentially open-ended. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarities with Revelations/Ragnarok may be said to include the Sun being swallowed up, a great serpent rising from the sea, the dead rising, fire raining down upon the world, and a horn sounding to signal the onset of the end.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So my question is, what do we know about Ragnarök prior to the Eddas, and how supportable is the idea that Ragnarök or something similar influenced ideas about the end of the world as expressed in the Book of Revelations?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9625" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2308" RevisionGUID="8b9728e8-6150-4920-8266-7ac106b1e31c" CreationDate="2017-01-20T22:09:09.427" UserId="2892" Comment="added a note about Roman contact with Germanic tribes, and Tacitus' account" Text="In my younger days I was convinced the story of Ragnarök was influenced by the New Testament's Armageddon.  As I started to learn about the existence of pagan ideas in Christianity, I began to wonder if the direction of this influence may be reversed.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Obviously, the textual appearance of Ragnarök is some centuries later than the drafting of the Book of Revelation, but the idea of Ragnarök surely predates its recording in the Eddas, whereas such a concept is not found in the Old Testament and is not associated with Jewish mythology and thought.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, as much as it was influenced by Old Testament ideas, Christianity can be said to have absorbed aspects of paganism.  The obvious link is in the concept of god embodied, antithetical to Jewish ideas, and the introduction of a dying/resurrected god (most closely linked to Dionysus per the Eucharist, although the bread aspect is related in Greek mythology to Persephone, who also goes to the underworld and returns.)  Christian holidays supplant the earlier, pagan celebrations, but may maintain some of their symbols. More recently, we see the absorption of pagan gods in the form of Saints, such as with the West African and Caribbean religions.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's also important to note that the region where Christianity arose was [Hellenized](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenization) during that period, and exerted an influence on segments of Jewish culture.  Greek was the *[lingua franca](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koin%C3%A9_language)* of those regions, and it is believed Ancient Greeks themselves had migrated to the region from parts north.  The Roman Empire had been butting up against the Germanic tribes from at least the end of the 2nd Century BCE, and Tacitus' [Germania](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germania_(book)), which dates to the end of the 1st Century CE, demonstrates that there was interest in the beliefs of these peoples. Paul travelled extensively in Greece to spread the gospel, notably before the Book of Revelations is believed to have been authored, and the identity of the author seems to be disputed, making the question of influences potentially open-ended. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarities with Revelations/Ragnarok may be said to include the Sun being swallowed up, a great serpent rising from the sea, the dead rising, fire raining down upon the world, and a horn sounding to signal the onset of the end.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So my question is, what do we know about Ragnarök prior to the Eddas, and how supportable is the idea that Ragnarök or something similar influenced ideas about the end of the world as expressed in the Book of Revelations?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9626" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2316" RevisionGUID="38e061c0-fea7-42ce-9d32-eb8ff31c4226" CreationDate="2017-01-20T22:59:40.077" UserId="292" Text="And of course [Frigg setting out][1] to save her son Baldr by getting everything on earth to swear not to hurt him. That she failed is beside the point; so did his father, Odin.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;A more complex and interesting example is the giantess/goddess Gerdr, whose reaction to being wooed by the god Freyr was to refuse him. So first, she asserts her independence, and second, from her comments it seems that she is familiar with Skadi's failed marriage to Freyr's father, a metatexual touch. (Carolyne Larrington's famous paper ([pdf here][2]) on Gerdr discusses how she states her own desires, and tries to maintain her own independence.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gefjun, too, steps outside the boundaries by having sex with a giant, which even the highly promiscuous Freyja felt [was going too far][3]. The gods have children with giantesses, the goddesses don't, except for Gefjun. The way she begets them for a purpose, tricking a king, is very Odin-like, and like him she mates with the giant and then goes on her way.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.northernpaganism.org/shrines/frigga/who-is-frigga.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/alvismal/1maer.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe11.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9627" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2317" RevisionGUID="67d83c99-5931-46aa-a8c8-f39d70418416" CreationDate="2017-01-21T00:28:32.627" UserId="398" Text="You're in good academic company to think it originated in sacrifice, but likely as its instantiated in the epic tradition. For one, the Greeks did not sacrifice anything by throwing it off the wall. A simple killing is not the same as sacrifice.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More importantly, the earliest representation is in the *Iliad* ([24.734-738](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad24.htm#anchor_Toc239246521)), where Andromache explains well enough to Astyanax why he might be killed:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; You my child will go with me, and labour somewhere at menial tasks for some harsh master. Or worse perhaps, some Greek will seize you by the arm and hurl you from the wall to your death, angered perhaps because Hector killed his brother, father, son, for many are the Achaeans whose mouths have bit the dust at the hands of Hector, and your father was not a kindly man in battle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Killing the children of your most hated enemies was common enough. The taboo against infanticide wouldn't apply here because there's no shared bloodline. (Remember, Laius couldn't kill Oedipus, but he had no qualms with asking others to dispose of the child.) The revenge-killing is even more appropriate since it Neoptolemus was likely the original person to throw him off the walls (*Odysseus* shows up early in the *Iliou Persis*, but Neoptolemus' deed in the *Little Iliad* is as early or even earlier, or at least completely distinct.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interestingly, Seneca's *Troades* makes it into a ritual sacrifice, but I wonder if that's because of the Roman practice of throwing the condemned off the [Tarpeian Rock](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarpeian_Rock). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Euripides also plays around with ritually sacrificial language, and Sarah Morris argues for a West Semitic parallel that may have influenced the story, but claims that it &quot;originated&quot; it are kind of weak. I wonder if they'd say the same thing about Augustus killing Caesarion in a thousand more years? [Rundin](http://www.jstor.org/stable/3268041?Search=yes&amp;resultItemClick=true&amp;searchText=astyanax&amp;seq=17) has a good &quot;middle ground&quot; analysis of the idea:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At first glance, Morris' suggestion seems unlikely. If the theme of child sacrifice has influenced the story of Astyanax, it has suffered great distortions. However, Morris's views are supported by growing evidence that Near Eastern iconography often generated features of Greek legend---and sometimes in surprising ways. When Greeks were exposed to decorative objects manufactured in the Near East, the scenes and depictions on them inspired poets, who at times created narratives with tenuous or distorted connections to the intentions of the objects' makers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rundin's view then is that the stories were influenced (and at times originated in) ANE art. That's not to say that Astyanax's original story is a sacrifice, but was shaped in parallel by sacrificial scenes. Of course, the idea always lurks behind later accounts, but given the *Iliad*'s stance, I'd say that was not the original idea." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9628" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2315" RevisionGUID="8f903733-01cc-44f4-a9db-79bc12ce29a8" CreationDate="2017-01-21T07:36:16.053" UserId="42" Comment="deleted 20 characters in body" Text="The narrative villifying Cao Cao predates Luo Guanzhong's work by a wide margin. His slant against Cao Wei is a product of his culture's bias, rather than the cause of it (though it likely did serve to solidify that bias).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Han dynasty is seen as something of a golden age. It represented a time of prosperity, and technological and social advancement. To this day, the largest (by a huge margin) Chinese ethnic group is referred to as &quot;Han&quot;. The fall of the Han occupies a similar space to western culture's sack of Rome. Following it came a long period of violence and corruption. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, the usurpers of the Han might naturally be viewed negatively, as the ones who ushered in a dark age. While Cao Cao may not have officially usurped the Han Emperor's throne, his son Cao Pi did, and many view the emperor at the time as little more than a puppet. I don't think many would disagree with the assertion that Cao Cao, at the height of his power, was *more powerful* than the Emperor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of course, being the effective victor, during the Jin dynasty Cao Wei was viewed as the legitimate successor to the Han. The view of history favoring the legitimacy of Shu Han may have started to become established as early as the Tang dynasty, following the An Lushan Rebellion. But appears to be particularly clearly established in the Southern Song with the [*Zizhi Tongjian*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zizhi_Tongjian), and especially the Yuan dynasty with the *Sanguozhi Pinghua*, a collection of plays clearly glorifying Shu Han coming from the Yuan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On whether Cao Cao *deserves* his reputation, that's a matter of opinion, but I’m reminded of the opening of Dan Carlin’s &quot;Wrath of Khans&quot; series. He talks about what he calls historical arsonists, sweeping away the old to make way for the new, fueling advancement, and that may be, but he implores: &quot;Don't lose track of the bodies&quot;. Cao Cao takes significant responsibility for one of the most vicious and deadly conflicts in history. It reduced the population in China to a fraction of that of the later Han, with an estimated 34-40 million dead, out of a population in the later Han of around 56 million. Beyond the romanticized strategies and heroic battles, his forces are also responsible for massacre and slaughter on a (then) unprecedented scale. So whatever conclusion you may draw about his character or impact, *don’t lose track of the bodies*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;(None of which is to necessarily say that his opponents don’t deserve their share of the “credit”, as well)&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9629" PostHistoryTypeId="13" PostId="2315" RevisionGUID="86607eea-3e26-45f2-a473-c401bb620639" CreationDate="2017-01-21T07:37:49.227" UserId="42" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:42,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;femtoRgon&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="9630" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2318" RevisionGUID="6f94872c-331e-4a59-b767-4920850a9571" CreationDate="2017-01-21T09:39:34.767" UserId="3244" Text="As you say, cows are sacred and respected in India. Indeed, a cow is often referred to as *Go-Mata*, meaning *Cow-Mother*. &#xA;&#xA;There are a pretty high number of reasons why the cow is so sacred.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; When Brahma created all things in the world, it took the form of a Goddess, who was his daughter. So beautiful was she, that Brahma himself was attracted to her. Perceiving this she fled, and Brahma chased after. She took the form of a female animal, and Brahma of the corresponding male. She turned into a doe, he a stag. She a tigress, he a tiger. He ran fast, she faster. And eventually their varied forms became independent, and the animals were created. Due to this she was known as *Shatarupa*, she of many forms. And when Brahma could run no more, he sat down, and sprouted three additional heads, so he may gaze upon her wherever she went.&#xA;&#xA;The above is an account of how the cow came to be, in Hindu Mythology.&#xA;&#xA;Following are the reason:&#xA;&#xA; &#xA; &#xA; &#xA; &#xA; - Prithvi, the Goddess of the Earth, nourishes all that live upon her. So does the cow, and it is due to that reason that she regularly uses that form.&#xA; &#xA; - When a demon had dragged her to the deepest oceans, depriving anyone and everyone of land to live on, Vishnu took the form of a boar, *Varaha*, and after a duel with the demon which continued a thousand years, dragged her back in the form of a cow.&#xA; &#xA; - Indra's city, Amravati, had a cow, whose name was *Kamadhenu*, the Cow of Desire. She would grant any wish, wisdom, wealth, men, resources, anything that was conceivable. (It is known fact that during the events of the Ramayana, Vashishtha had possession of her.)&#xA; &#xA; - Krishna was famous for stealing butter, playing flutes, and generally being a cowherd.&#xA; &#xA; - Shiva's ownership of Nandi *might* have been an influence, but I'm not sure.&#xA;&#xA;Then there's the immense usefulness of a cow(Milk, Butter, Ghee, and of course, leather) in Vedic society. It is a combination of these things that has led to the immense sacred status of the cow in Indian society.&#xA;&#xA;All information was taken from:&#xA;&#xA; &#xA; - *Mith=Mithya* - Devdutt Pattnaik&#xA; &#xA; - *Amar Chitra Katha* Books" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9633" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2319" RevisionGUID="b01fc4d0-4e6d-4b55-b7ab-7b21b945b39b" CreationDate="2017-01-22T22:45:50.703" UserId="57" Text="In chapter 10 of the Saga of the Völsungs, Regin is trying to convince Sigurd that [Fafnir][1] is an average size dragon: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Young am I,&quot; says Sigurd, &quot;yet know I the fashion of this worm, and how that none durst go against him, so huge and evil is he.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Regin said, &quot;Nay it is not so, the fashion and the growth of him is even as of other lingworms, and an over great tale men make of it; and even so would thy forefathers have deemed; but thou, though thou be of the kin of the Volsungs, shalt scarce have the heart and mind of those, who are told of as the first in all deeds of fame.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Story of the Volsungs, translated by William Morris and Eirikr Magnusson&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When the pair ride to slay the dragon, however, Sigurd realizes from Fafnir's tracks that the dragon is a tad larger than Regin lead him to believe. Regardless, Sigurd - with a little help from the all-present Odin - slays Fafnir. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The comments on Fafnir's size peaked my interest. How large did the Norse think dragon were? Do the Norse tales give any information on their size?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fafnir" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9634" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2319" RevisionGUID="b01fc4d0-4e6d-4b55-b7ab-7b21b945b39b" CreationDate="2017-01-22T22:45:50.703" UserId="57" Text="How large were Norse dragons?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9635" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2319" RevisionGUID="b01fc4d0-4e6d-4b55-b7ab-7b21b945b39b" CreationDate="2017-01-22T22:45:50.703" UserId="57" Text="|norse|dragons|volsunga|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9636" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2319" RevisionGUID="16b65399-dd70-45c0-8062-89974853fde3" CreationDate="2017-01-22T22:53:03.860" UserId="57" Comment="added 20 characters in body" Text="In chapter 10 of the Saga of the Völsungs, Regin is trying to convince Sigurd that [Fafnir][1] is an average size dragon: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Young am I,&quot; says Sigurd, &quot;yet know I the fashion of this worm, and how that none durst go against him, so huge and evil is he.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Regin said, &quot;Nay it is not so, the fashion and the growth of him is even as of other lingworms, and an over great tale men make of it; and even so would thy forefathers have deemed; but thou, though thou be of the kin of the Volsungs, shalt scarce have the heart and mind of those, who are told of as the first in all deeds of fame.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Story of the Volsungs, translated by William Morris and Eirikr Magnusson&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When the pair ride to slay the dragon, however, Sigurd realizes from Fafnir's tracks that the dragon is a tad larger than Regin lead him to believe. Regardless, Sigurd - with a little help from the ever-present Odin - slays Fafnir. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The comments on Fafnir's size peaked my interest. How large did the Norse imagine dragons to be? Do their legends give any explicit information on the size of dragons?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fafnir" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9637" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2319" RevisionGUID="b31384fd-5a89-426c-82ad-d79fa8df015c" CreationDate="2017-01-23T00:14:46.327" UserId="57" Comment="added 94 characters in body" Text="In chapter 10 of the Saga of the Völsungs, Regin is trying to convince Sigurd that [Fafnir][1] is an average size dragon: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Young am I,&quot; says Sigurd, &quot;yet know I the fashion of this worm, and how that none durst go against him, so huge and evil is he.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Regin said, &quot;Nay it is not so, the fashion and the growth of him is even as of other lingworms, and an over great tale men make of it; and even so would thy forefathers have deemed; but thou, though thou be of the kin of the Volsungs, shalt scarce have the heart and mind of those, who are told of as the first in all deeds of fame.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Story of the Volsungs, translated by William Morris and Eirikr Magnusson&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When the pair ride to slay the dragon, however, Sigurd realizes from Fafnir's tracks that the dragon is a tad larger than Regin lead him to believe. Regardless, Sigurd - with a little help from the ever-present Odin - slays Fafnir. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm trying to get a basic understanding of the mechanics of dragon slaying in Norse mythology, and the comments on Fafnir's size peaked my interest. How large did the Norse imagine dragons to be? Do any of their legends give explicit information on the size of dragons?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fafnir" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9638" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2320" RevisionGUID="7bb3e195-bc49-4712-bfb1-c4a24232547e" CreationDate="2017-01-23T02:14:39.917" UserId="57" Text="Sigurd refuses to tell his name to the dying Fafnir: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So whenas Fafnir had his death-wound, he asked &quot;Who art thou? And who is thy father? And what thy kin, that thou wert so hardy as to bear weapons against me?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sigurd answered, &quot;Unknown to men is my kin. I am called a noble beast: neither father have I nor mother, and all alone have I fared hither.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Chapter 18, The Story of the Volsungs, translated by William Morris and Eirikr Magnusson&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The translator notes that this is a reference to &quot;the superstition that a dying man could throw a curse on his enemy&quot;. When Fafnir asks a second time, though, Sigurd decides to reveal himself for no apparent reason: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Said Fafnir, &quot;Whereas thou hast neither father nor mother, of what wonder weft thou born then? But now, though thou tellest me not thy name on this my death-day, yet thou knowest verily that thou liest unto me.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He answered, &quot;Sigurd am I called, and my father was Sigmund.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why the sudden change of heart? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9639" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2320" RevisionGUID="7bb3e195-bc49-4712-bfb1-c4a24232547e" CreationDate="2017-01-23T02:14:39.917" UserId="57" Text="Why does Sigurd reveal himself to Fafnir?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9640" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2320" RevisionGUID="7bb3e195-bc49-4712-bfb1-c4a24232547e" CreationDate="2017-01-23T02:14:39.917" UserId="57" Text="|norse|volsunga|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9641" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2320" RevisionGUID="c42b3157-1264-4005-b020-ee9835303097" CreationDate="2017-01-23T02:58:30.470" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|volsunga|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9642" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2289" RevisionGUID="c82ad5f2-ce89-4339-88a3-21032099926a" CreationDate="2017-01-23T11:02:52.573" UserId="3230" Comment="edited tags" Text="|christianity|symbolism|dante|inferno|divine-comedy|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9643" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2321" RevisionGUID="86d62dd2-56f4-4516-8b41-c94b04359977" CreationDate="2017-01-23T11:04:37.250" UserId="3230" Text="Dante spends thirteen cantos in [Malebolge][1], the eight circle of Hell. This is a lot longer than any other circle. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why do the sinners in this circle get so much of his attention?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malebolge" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9644" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2321" RevisionGUID="86d62dd2-56f4-4516-8b41-c94b04359977" CreationDate="2017-01-23T11:04:37.250" UserId="3230" Text="Why does Dante spend so much time in Malebolge?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9645" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2321" RevisionGUID="86d62dd2-56f4-4516-8b41-c94b04359977" CreationDate="2017-01-23T11:04:37.250" UserId="3230" Text="|christianity|dante|inferno|divine-comedy|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9647" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2322" RevisionGUID="43fec443-4e04-41d3-b683-fcb6c6682d3b" CreationDate="2017-01-23T15:44:11.430" UserId="3373" Text="Perhaps to emulate the old statue of the Goddess Hekate. The youth, the priestess, the wise crone. Before Virgin Mary with Vesica Pisces was placed on the crossroads all across Europe, Hekate was the Goddess of the Underworld and Crossroads. Dante Alighieri might have seen a similar statue amongst the ruins or in some private possession. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9649" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2324" RevisionGUID="38946cb7-055b-4093-973e-d65e80eb9b34" CreationDate="2017-01-23T16:12:14.250" UserId="3373" Text="No. Osiris resurrection is recounted in the texts (The Book of the Dead), Osiris was a Victor of Amentet, thus descended to the place of the dead, and ascended to Heavens. Horus was counted as one of the Enneadic powers (High Judges, or the Council of Seven, or Nine in some text), he was rather establishing co-rule with Pharaoh's and had a more significant role than a soteriological figure. He was a protector of the body of Osiris. &quot;Pagan Christs&quot; is a relevant book (you can find it on internet archives), reagrding comparative soteriology.   " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9653" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2325" RevisionGUID="2fe28e86-7e1a-42dd-9d8a-059dcbbcf422" CreationDate="2017-01-24T09:07:53.800" UserId="57" Text="When Sigurd wakes up Brynhild, we learn that her imprisonment was the result of her defiance to Odin's command:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Brynhild speaks again and says, &quot;Two kings fought, one hight Helm Gunnar, an old man, and the greatest of warriors, and Odin had promised the victory unto him; but his foe was Agnar, or Audi's brother, and so I smote down Helm Gunnar in the fight; and Odin, in vengeance for that deed, stuck the sleep-thorn into me, and said that I should never again have the victory, but should be given away in marriage; but there against I vowed a vow, that never would I wed one who knew the name of fear.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Chapter 20, The Story of the Volsungs, translated by William Morris and Eirikr Magnusson&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why would Brynhild favour Agnar? Wasn't she, as a valkyrie, bound to Odin's will? Is this act of disobedience unique among the valkyries?  &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9654" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2325" RevisionGUID="2fe28e86-7e1a-42dd-9d8a-059dcbbcf422" CreationDate="2017-01-24T09:07:53.800" UserId="57" Text="Why did Brynhild disobey Odin?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9655" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2325" RevisionGUID="2fe28e86-7e1a-42dd-9d8a-059dcbbcf422" CreationDate="2017-01-24T09:07:53.800" UserId="57" Text="|norse|odin|volsunga|brynhild|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9656" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2324" RevisionGUID="33050189-0af4-40ed-b7f8-9cded02f8272" CreationDate="2017-01-24T10:18:18.550" UserId="3373" Comment="added 76 characters in body" Text="No. Osiris resurrection is recounted in the texts (The Book of the Dead), Osiris was a Victor of Amentet, thus descended to the place of the dead, and ascended to Heavens. Horus was counted as one of the Enneadic powers (High Judges, or the Council of Seven, or Nine in some text), he was rather establishing co-rule with Pharaohs as avatars or the living Horus and had a more significant role than a soteriological figure. He was a protector of the body of Osiris, nevertheless. &quot;Pagan Christs&quot; is a relevant book (you can find it on internet archives), regarding comparative soteriology (Mithra, Christ, Baldr and others) " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9660" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2193" RevisionGUID="f8ff4dc4-0345-49a0-a12e-3f6c392053cd" CreationDate="2017-01-24T16:12:18.167" UserId="398" Comment="edited title" Text="Are there any Greek myths of a god permanently turning into a mortal as punishment?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9661" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1724" RevisionGUID="200b4fe9-b24a-49df-b99d-b7ccbf29b803" CreationDate="2017-01-24T18:26:08.310" UserId="2682" Comment="improved formatting" Text="&lt;sub&gt;*This is a question I've asked on Yahoo! Answers &amp; MythForum.com, &amp; for which I'm hoping to get further insight here.*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Greek mythology the story of the birth of the god Hermes makes it sound he was originally mortal and that he somehow managed to bribe his way into becoming the twelfth [i.e. the last] of the Twelve Olympians, after appeasing his half-brother Apollon (Apollo) with a musical instrument, and sacrificing some of the cattle he had stolen from the same Apollon to the other eleven Olympians and to himself(!).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hermes' mother Maia was a daughter of the Titan Atlas. By some of this Titan's other daughters Zeus and Poseidon also had other sons, who all seem to have been born mortal. So there must have been something special about Maia herself or Hermes was at birth a mortal just like his half-brothers and cousins, and his father granted him immortality after he performed his amazing feats of theft on his first birthday.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the _Homeric Hymn to Hermes_, Apollon threatens to cast the baby Hermes into Tartaros &quot;to rule over the little folk there,&quot; a threat which no other god but Zeus ever seems to make to any other person in Greek myth. Is this an indication of Hermes' mortality at this point?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9662" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2328" RevisionGUID="46da8996-cf08-4424-b3bd-606f0c355d59" CreationDate="2017-01-24T19:37:38.403" UserId="2892" Text="My high-level response would be that one motivation is to display his courage in not fearing a potential curse by the Dragon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's an interesting point that he only reveals his identity after being called out by Fafnir, with the implication Sigurd withholds his identity out of fear.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(The reason I don't think it has to do with Sigurd wanting to be seen as truthful is the prestige conferred in many Norse sagas and myth for tricking one's opponents.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9664" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2329" RevisionGUID="d1e4acc9-b4c2-478a-b6ef-162f6565ed6a" CreationDate="2017-01-25T12:15:34.090" UserId="57" Text="In stanza 156 (or 157 depending on translation) of Hávamál, we learn that runes have the power to bring back the dead: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 156\.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *A twelfth I know: if I see in a tree  &#xD;&#xA;a corpse from a halter hanging,  &#xD;&#xA;such spells I write, and paint in runes,  &#xD;&#xA;that the being descends and speaks.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Hávamál, The Words of Odin the High One, from the Elder or Poetic Edda (Sæmund's Edda), translated by Olive Bray and edited by D. L. Ashliman  &#xD;&#xA;http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/havamal.html&#xD;&#xA;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Has this power ever been used? Is there a story where a corpse is resurrected by a rune spell?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9665" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2329" RevisionGUID="d1e4acc9-b4c2-478a-b6ef-162f6565ed6a" CreationDate="2017-01-25T12:15:34.090" UserId="57" Text="Have runes ever been used to bring someone back to life?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9666" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2329" RevisionGUID="d1e4acc9-b4c2-478a-b6ef-162f6565ed6a" CreationDate="2017-01-25T12:15:34.090" UserId="57" Text="|norse|resurrection|runes|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9667" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2329" RevisionGUID="7c2fb7f1-e4a8-4f6d-a63b-c8588b5aa935" CreationDate="2017-01-25T14:04:52.607" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 8 characters in body" Text="In stanza 156 (or 157 depending on translation) of Hávamál, we learn that runes have the power to bring back the dead: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 156\.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *A twelfth I know: if I see in a tree  &#xD;&#xA;a corpse from a halter hanging,  &#xD;&#xA;such spells I write, and paint in runes,  &#xD;&#xA;that the being descends and speaks.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Hávamál, The Words of Odin the High One, from the Elder or Poetic Edda (Sæmund's Edda), translated by Olive Bray and edited by D. L. Ashliman  &#xD;&#xA;http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/havamal.html&#xD;&#xA;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was this a wider belief? Is there a story where a corpse is resurrected by a rune spell?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9669" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2330" RevisionGUID="d266aacd-870f-4200-87dc-7ee420b77dc3" CreationDate="2017-01-25T14:50:36.443" UserId="666" Text="Not exactly&#xD;&#xA;------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We probably come closest in [Balder's dreams][1]: Balder dreams of being killed, and thus Odin rides to Hel and wakes the corpse of a Völva to find what it means. However, while is not clearly specified which kind of magic is used, runes or seiðr (Odin was proficient in both), it is said that he worked it by saying it, rather than carving or painting it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A similar motif is also found in [Grógaldr][2], where Svipdag summons his dead mother (also a Völva) to aid him in a quest given him by his evil stepmother. Again, the kind of magic is not specified.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the method of waking her is similar to the one employed by Freya in [Hyndluljóð][3] to wake Hyndla. Here, it is not specified that she is dead when she is woken, but given that this seems a common trope, we can assume it. If so, then we can be reasonable sure that this is seiðr rather than rune magic, since Freya was the one who brought the knowledge of this to the Aesir.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, we have the [Hervarar saga][4], where Hervor awakens her father to get the cursed sword Tyrfing from his Burrow. Again, this is done by calling out to him, in a similar manner to Grógaldr and Hyndluljóð.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, while there is a common motif of heroes waking the dead temporarily to get something from them, it is never explicitly linked with runes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(For an example of someone actually using runic magic, see Egil's saga, where he breaks a botched attempt at love runes and renders a cup of poison safe to drink).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe13.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gr%C3%B3galdr&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe15.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.germanicmythology.com/FORNALDARSAGAS/HervararSagaTunstall.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9674" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2105" RevisionGUID="982d78d3-dde3-4ec3-9d21-e7d5fc6f9bda" CreationDate="2017-01-26T01:07:29.933" UserId="2892" Comment="Added a section on American mythology" Text="Chinese Mythology is instructive in this regard.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;History and Mythology were conflated up until the 20th century, so you have cycles, such as the [&quot;Three Kingdoms&quot;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Kingdoms), which are both historical and mythological. [Lord Guan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guan_Yu#Worship_of_Guan_Yu) is a hero of the Three Kingdoms period who famously, posthumously became one of the most revered gods in the Chinese pantheon.  Even the history of his elevation to godhood is conflated with mythology because the sources related to it are not academic, but folkloric, and the apotheosis took place in stages over about 1500 years. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Duke of Zhou](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Zhou), one of the great sages of antiquity and a seminal figure in Chinese history and culture, is a similar figure. The Duke of Zhou is credited with the concept of the &quot;Mandate of Heaven&quot; which led to the overthrow of the Shang Dynasty, itself recounted in work such as &quot;[The Creation of the Gods](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investiture_of_the_Gods)&quot;.  The Duke of Zhou was inadvertently deified as the [God of Dreams](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Zhou#God_of_Dreams) based on a misunderstanding of a quote by [Master Kong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Contemporary Chinese mythology is particularly interesting because we can see mythology forming in historic times before our eyes.  Here I am talking about figures such as [Wong Fei-Hung](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wong_Fei-hung), who was both an historical person, and rose to prominence through the new medium of cinema to occupy a central place in Chinese Heroic Folklore.  For context, there have been literally hundreds of films about Fei-Hung--far more than all of the Western superhero movies combined.  *[I addressed this phenomenon in more detail [here](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2048/to-what-degree-are-depictions-of-beggar-so-influenced-by-the-immortal-li-tieguai)]*.  There is no parallel in the West that I know of.  In the case of Fei-Hung, it was about 25 years after his death that he began to be mythologized in film.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;American mythology is also useful.  We see mythologization of figures like [George Washington in the story of the cherry tree](http://www.mountvernon.org/digital-encyclopedia/article/cherry-tree-myth/). This particular myth seems to have arisen about 6 years after Washington's death.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Outlaws are another type of American hero that have been widely mythologized.  The &quot;Wild West&quot; is full of figures and account both accurate, exaggerated, and entirely fabricated, generally beginning during the lifetimes of the figures in question, and often for reasons of economic gain.  [Calamity Jane](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calamity_Jane) and [&quot;Wild Bill&quot; Hickok](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22Wild_Bill%22_Hickok) featured recently on the acclaimed series [Deadwood](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadwood_(TV_series)), a further mythologization of those personages.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My favorite American example is [Bonnie and Clyde](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonnie_and_Clyde).  They attained legendary status during their lifetimes, and the legend only grew after their deaths.  What makes these two especially interesting to me is the [Arthur Penn film](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonnie_and_Clyde_(film)) starring Faye Dunaway and Warren Beaty. Beyond the casting, the film is notable both for its accolades and controversy surrounding it. In other words, the film has a place in the literary canon, with an extra footnote on the depiction of violence in film.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Icelandic Sagas are also worth thinking about.  There you have the documentation of history in the form of stories about heroes.  Although authorship of the sagas is for the most part anonymous, it's a reasonable assumption that they would have been composed in a time not too distant from the events they recount.  I particularly like the Icelandic sagas, not only for their literary quality, but for their concern with settlement and the origin of place-names, which link them to the real world.     " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9675" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2105" RevisionGUID="7c11b401-931e-4171-8ee5-05462fe1d758" CreationDate="2017-01-26T01:36:14.850" UserId="2892" Comment="Added a comment of euhemerism" Text="Chinese Mythology is instructive in this regard.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;History and Mythology were conflated up until the 20th century, so you have cycles, such as the [&quot;Three Kingdoms&quot;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Kingdoms), which are both historical and mythological. [Lord Guan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guan_Yu#Worship_of_Guan_Yu) is a hero of the Three Kingdoms period who famously, posthumously became one of the most revered gods in the Chinese pantheon.  Even the history of his elevation to godhood is conflated with mythology because the sources related to it are not academic, but folkloric, and the apotheosis took place in stages over about 1500 years. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Duke of Zhou](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Zhou), one of the great sages of antiquity and a seminal figure in Chinese history and culture, is a similar figure. The Duke of Zhou is credited with the concept of the &quot;Mandate of Heaven&quot; which led to the overthrow of the Shang Dynasty, itself recounted in work such as &quot;[The Creation of the Gods](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investiture_of_the_Gods)&quot;.  The Duke of Zhou was inadvertently deified as the [God of Dreams](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Zhou#God_of_Dreams) based on a misunderstanding of a quote by [Master Kong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Contemporary Chinese mythology is particularly interesting because we can see mythology forming in historic times before our eyes.  Here I am talking about figures such as [Wong Fei-Hung](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wong_Fei-hung), who was both an historical person, and rose to prominence through the new medium of cinema to occupy a central place in Chinese Heroic Folklore.  For context, there have been literally hundreds of films about Fei-Hung--far more than all of the Western superhero movies combined.  *[I addressed this phenomenon in more detail [here](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2048/to-what-degree-are-depictions-of-beggar-so-influenced-by-the-immortal-li-tieguai)]*.  There is no parallel in the West that I know of.  In the case of Fei-Hung, it was about 25 years after his death that he began to be mythologized in film.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;American mythology is also useful.  We see mythologization of figures like [George Washington in the story of the cherry tree](http://www.mountvernon.org/digital-encyclopedia/article/cherry-tree-myth/). This particular myth seems to have arisen about 6 years after Washington's death.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Outlaws are another type of American hero that have been widely mythologized.  The &quot;Wild West&quot; is full of figures and account both accurate, exaggerated, and entirely fabricated, generally beginning during the lifetimes of the figures in question, and often for reasons of economic gain.  [Calamity Jane](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calamity_Jane) and [&quot;Wild Bill&quot; Hickok](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22Wild_Bill%22_Hickok) featured recently on the acclaimed series [Deadwood](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadwood_(TV_series)), a further mythologization of those personages.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My favorite American example is [Bonnie and Clyde](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonnie_and_Clyde).  They attained legendary status during their lifetimes, and the legend only grew after their deaths.  What makes these two especially interesting to me is the [Arthur Penn film](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonnie_and_Clyde_(film)) starring Faye Dunaway and Warren Beaty. Beyond the casting, the film is notable both for its accolades and controversy surrounding it. In other words, the film has a place in the literary canon, with an extra footnote on the depiction of violence in film.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Icelandic Sagas are also worth thinking about.  There you have the documentation of history in the form of stories about heroes.  Although authorship of the sagas is for the most part anonymous, it's a reasonable assumption that they would have been composed in a time not too distant from the events they recount.  I particularly like the Icelandic sagas, not only for their literary quality, but for their concern with settlement and the origin of place-names, which link them to the real world.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of euhemerism, I doubt there's a easy answer.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The above material would seem to indicate that legends do indeed originate from history, but it also seems clear that stories can be shared, either with a literary or syncretic intent.  (For instance Cúchulainn's  choice of glory over long life is so similar to Achilles', it's hard not to believe they are connected.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Furthermore, Greek mythology has several phases, such as Archaic (pre-Classical) and Classical.  Many of the myths we know originated with Archaic authors such as Homer and Hesiod.  These myths were adapted by subsequent authors such as the Greek dramatists to suit their thematic purposes.  These later interpolations, many of which are now central to the canon, could not have been based on any historical fact, but are purely literary, even when commenting on contemporary history, such as the [atrocities committed at Melos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milos#Siege_of_416_BC) and the infamous [Sicilian Expedition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_Expedition).  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9676" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2332" RevisionGUID="b107038b-3156-47b0-9838-7dee742cbc12" CreationDate="2017-01-26T06:28:26.100" UserId="3394" Text="Golden age, Silver, Bronze, Iron, Age of heroes&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which one are we currently in as of today?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9677" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2332" RevisionGUID="b107038b-3156-47b0-9838-7dee742cbc12" CreationDate="2017-01-26T06:28:26.100" UserId="3394" Text="Five ages of man according to Heisod" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9678" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2332" RevisionGUID="b107038b-3156-47b0-9838-7dee742cbc12" CreationDate="2017-01-26T06:28:26.100" UserId="3394" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9679" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2333" RevisionGUID="38ff8d93-4d77-492f-99da-744eefa044b6" CreationDate="2017-01-26T09:45:07.437" UserId="57" Text="Hesiod describes the Five Ages in his poem *Works and Days* (lines 109 - 201) &lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;. Their order is: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Golden Age, ruled by Cronus,&#xD;&#xA;- Silver Age, when Zeus rule begins,&#xD;&#xA;- Bronze Age, an age of tough men that ends with the flood of Deucalion,&#xD;&#xA;- Heroic Age, when the Trojan War occurs,&#xD;&#xA;- Iron Age, the current age.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod does not mention a future age past his own, which would be a better fit for our own time. Therefore, we could either say that we live in the same age as Hesiod, the Iron one, or that we live in an age past the five Hesiodic ones.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt; &lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; An English translation of the poem is available in the Perseus Digital Library: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3atext%3a1999.01.0132&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9680" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2332" RevisionGUID="ad159d1e-98b7-4e29-8450-8d205a9aabdb" CreationDate="2017-01-26T09:46:23.590" UserId="57" Comment="added 53 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="There are five ages of man according to Hesiod: Golden Age, Silver, Bronze, Iron, and Age of Heroes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which one are we currently in as of today?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9681" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2332" RevisionGUID="ad159d1e-98b7-4e29-8450-8d205a9aabdb" CreationDate="2017-01-26T09:46:23.590" UserId="57" Comment="added 53 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Which age do we live in, according to Hesiod?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9682" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2332" RevisionGUID="ad159d1e-98b7-4e29-8450-8d205a9aabdb" CreationDate="2017-01-26T09:46:23.590" UserId="57" Comment="added 53 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|greek|hesiod|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9683" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2333" RevisionGUID="e0ce7f91-e7d1-486c-940c-183de441efe1" CreationDate="2017-01-26T09:57:59.977" UserId="57" Comment="added 78 characters in body" Text="Hesiod describes the [Five Ages][1] in his poem *Works and Days* (lines 109 - 201) &lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;. Their order is: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Golden Age, ruled by Cronus,&#xD;&#xA;- Silver Age, when Zeus rule begins,&#xD;&#xA;- Bronze Age, an age of tough men that ends with the flood of Deucalion,&#xD;&#xA;- Heroic Age, when the Trojan War occurs,&#xD;&#xA;- Iron Age, the current age.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod does not mention a future age past his own, which would be a better fit for our own time. Therefore, we could either say that we live in the same age as Hesiod, the Iron one, or that we live in an age past the five Hesiodic ones.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt; &lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; An English translation of the poem is available in the Perseus Digital Library: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3atext%3a1999.01.0132&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_Man#Hesiod.27s_Five_Ages" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9686" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2334" RevisionGUID="7b357e62-256f-4651-9ff1-8557e9c6a8a1" CreationDate="2017-01-26T16:50:36.050" UserId="3230" Text="According to Wikipedia, [Ovid's Four Ages of Man][1] are very similar to [Hesiod's Five Ages Man][2], minus the Heroic Age.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why didn't Ovid include the Heroic Age?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_Man#Ovid.27s_Four_Ages&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_Man#Hesiod.27s_Five_Ages" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9687" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2334" RevisionGUID="7b357e62-256f-4651-9ff1-8557e9c6a8a1" CreationDate="2017-01-26T16:50:36.050" UserId="3230" Text="Why did Ovid ommit the Heroic Age?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9688" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2334" RevisionGUID="7b357e62-256f-4651-9ff1-8557e9c6a8a1" CreationDate="2017-01-26T16:50:36.050" UserId="3230" Text="|greek|comparative|roman|ages-of-man|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9690" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2335" RevisionGUID="ee870fff-5d31-41c8-8559-623f97a0df42" CreationDate="2017-01-26T17:00:33.887" UserId="666" Text="Perhaps fifty foot long&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I can actually only think of one other real dragon in &quot;proper&quot; mythology: Nidhögg, which is clearly a cosmological beast and should really not be used as a measure, and if we do, he would have to be taken to be immense: in the final verse of Völuspá he &quot;carries the dead&quot; into the world that has been purified after Ragnarök. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we look at the sagas, we have a notice in [Gull-Þóris saga][1] that he was at the end of his life said to have turned into a dragon and that one was sighted near his home, but there is no notice of the size.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We also have what is not actually a dragon, but a close relative, in the Lindworm that [Ragnar Loðbrók][2] fought according to Saxo, which had grown large enough to encircle the bower of [Þóra Borgarhjǫrtr][3]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, we do have one good source for the size of what is actually called a dragon from the right period, but it is not quite norse: the one that Beowulf fought and lost his life against. It is explicitly said to be fifty foot long ([line 3043][4]), so that will have to be the answer. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sagadb.org/gull-thoris_saga&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar_Lodbrok&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9E%C3%B3ra_Borgarhj%C7%ABrtr&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/9700/9700-h/9700-h.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9691" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2336" RevisionGUID="176e00d7-c685-4756-8e62-4fc3365075d6" CreationDate="2017-01-26T18:16:15.263" UserId="2892" Text="Subsequent authors were always changing up the content of their predecessors to keep things fresh.  (Simply repeating Hesiod wouldn't get an audience excited. Contradicting previous authors or adding new twists to the old stories sells books, or scrolls, as the case may be.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the other hand, Ovid may have simply been attracted to the idea of comparing each age to a metal, and decided that the Heroic Age and Bronze Age could be merged. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ovid was writing poetry, thus keeping the metal association strengthens the metaphor.  It also squares nicely with his mention of the creation of the Four Seasons. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(You can read an old fashioned, poetic translation in English [here](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0074%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D89).)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It may also have to do with the improvement Hesiod references during his Heroic Age.  Ovid's four ages seem to reflect a steady, downward progression as civilization advances, which he may, again, have felt strengthened his poem.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod was himself a poet, but his life and concerns were quite different from the much later P. Ovidius Naso.  For Hesiod, content may said to preempt form (the tension over form vs. content is central to poetic composition.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod clearly wants to make the case that the heroes of the Iliad and their generations were superior to the debased times he himself lived in.  Fidelity to the metal theme was clearly not as important to him as his moral message. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Where Ovid's primary intent is aesthetic, Hesiod's primary intent is instructive.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*[PS-This is just a quick overview--I may have more info once I get a chance to do a little research.]*" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9693" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2337" RevisionGUID="c6e0d97e-0935-4a1c-9032-712a3883bd84" CreationDate="2017-01-26T19:03:43.103" UserId="57" Text="In chapter 27 of the Saga of the Völsungs, Brynhild brags of having been in battles with a king of Greeks:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; She answered in heavy mood from her seat, whereas she sat like unto swan on billow, having a sword in her hand and a helm on her head, and being clad in a byrny, &quot;O Gunnar,&quot; she says, &quot;speak not to me of such things unless thou be the first and best of all men; for then shall thou slay those my wooers, if thou hast heart thereto; I have been in battles with the king of the Greeks, and weapons were stained with red blood, and for such things still I yearn.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;&quot;Chapter 20&quot;, *The Story of the Volsungs*, translated by William Morris and Eirikr Magnusson&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is this Brynhild's way of saying she has battled legendary opponents in far away lands, or could it be a more specific reference? Given that Brynhild's brother King Atli is identified with Attila the Hun, could this perhaps be a reference to Attila's campaigns against the Eastern Roman Empire?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9694" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2337" RevisionGUID="c6e0d97e-0935-4a1c-9032-712a3883bd84" CreationDate="2017-01-26T19:03:43.103" UserId="57" Text="Who is the Greek king Brynhild fought?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9695" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2337" RevisionGUID="c6e0d97e-0935-4a1c-9032-712a3883bd84" CreationDate="2017-01-26T19:03:43.103" UserId="57" Text="|norse|volsunga|brynhild|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9696" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2332" RevisionGUID="e07dd1dd-9f24-4d21-959b-9412b5a0f3ca" CreationDate="2017-01-26T20:08:15.417" UserId="3230" Comment="added ages-of-man tag" Text="|greek|hesiod|ages-of-man|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9697" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2332" RevisionGUID="e07dd1dd-9f24-4d21-959b-9412b5a0f3ca" CreationDate="2017-01-26T20:08:15.417" Comment="Proposed by 3230 approved by 1241, 2774 edit id of 418" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9700" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2338" RevisionGUID="40ba1652-8873-479d-a700-56cb2e18f6c0" CreationDate="2017-01-27T10:45:05.233" UserId="2682" Text="I've always taken the answer to this to fall somewhere in between, on the one hand, the fact that Óðinn [Odin] is a trickster figure and, on the other hand, the apparent cultural expectation of the Norsemen that the most desirable way to die would be in battle in order to spend one's afterlife with Óðinn in Valhalla, training for the [Ragnarök](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar%C3%B6k).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Óðinn's trickster aspect appears to me to manifest in Sigmund's youth as well as in his old age. Óðinn has a cameo at these critical points in the life of this great-great-grandson of his. In both instances, before Óðinn shows up, things are going well enough, but the net result of each encounter is basically disaster for Sigmund, although in the first instance it is more indirect.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Chapter 3 of the *Völsunga saga* Óðinn chooses a strange way to gift Sigmund with a magic sword at the wedding feast of Sigmund's sister Signy to the Geatish king Siggeir. Óðinn sticks the sword into the Barnstokk, a tree around which the feast hall of Sigmund's and Signy's father Völsung has been built, saying that the person who can pull the sword from the tree will own this weapon, and only Sigmund succeeds at this task. This eventually leads to the death of almost every member of Sigmund's family because he refuses to hand the sword over to his new brother-in-law.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Based on Óðinn's character as a prophet in other stories, it would seem that the god knows all this will happen when he sticks the sword into the tree. (Or, at the very least, none of it takes him by great surprise.) The only reason of which I can think for him to present Sigmund with the gift in this manner is in order to create strife at this wedding feast (whose bride, the same chapter tells us, actively hates her groom from the moment he requests her hand in marriage). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If Óðinn is intentionally sowing discord which will end in the kind of brutality that it does for the Völsungar, perhaps there is redemptive logic therein in that he is essentially a war-god and is seeking among his descendants the most powerful warriors to add to his collection of Einherjar (the dead &quot;Lone Fighters&quot; housed in Valhalla).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, in this way, Óðinn is manipulating the course of his great-great-grandson's life in order to lead him to this final moment in which he will die as a warrior in order to join the ranks of those who shall fight on the side of the gods in the Ragnarök. If that is plausible then it should explain how Sigmund's life ends, and Óðinn's involvement in the scene, which therefore is more of a blessing than a forsaking.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sigmund's own perspective on the matter is perhaps somewhere in between seeing it that way and simply being resigned about it just being &quot;his time&quot; and &quot;God's will.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The night after the battle, Hjordis went out to the men who had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fallen, came to the spot where King Sigmund was lying, and asked if he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; could be made well again.  &#xD;&#xA;'Many have recovered when there was little&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hope,' he answered. 'But my good luck has turned and so I do not wish&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to be made well. Odin does not want me draw sword, for now it lies&#xD;&#xA;&gt; broken. I have fought battles while it was his pleasure.'  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Chapter 12 - *Vǫlsunga Saga: The Saga of the Volsungs*, Edited &amp; Translated by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; R.G. Finch&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;(A potential hole in this hypothesis is that, strictly speaking, Sigmund technically does not die in battle; he merely succumbs to injury.)&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9701" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="2010" RevisionGUID="c22e28d9-b749-43d9-ac3b-3c1d304dcfc0" CreationDate="2017-01-27T12:01:51.467" UserId="57" Comment="38" />
  <row Id="9702" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2339" RevisionGUID="f2c685dc-e3e8-4e23-a1de-1cbedb0b8035" CreationDate="2017-01-28T04:30:17.823" UserId="1241" Text="What is the reason that makes it impossible for a [vrykolakas][1] can not traverse the sea?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason for this may be in the salt contained in the water, but **this in itself can not be verified.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There are thirty-five verses which reference salt in the English translation of the Bible (King James Version), the earliest being the story of Lot's wife, who was turned into a pillar of salt when she disobediently looked back at the wicked cities of Sodom (Genesis 19:26). When King Abimelech destroyed the city of Shechem he is said to have &quot;sowed salt on it;&quot; a phrase expressing the completeness of its ruin. (Judges 9:45.) In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus referred to his followers as the &quot;salt of the earth&quot;. The apostle Paul also encouraged Christians to &quot;let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt&quot; (Colossians 4:6) so that when others enquire about their beliefs, the Christian's answer generates a 'thirst' to know more about Christ. Salt is mandatory in the rite of the Tridentine Mass. Salt is used in the third item (which includes an Exorcism) of the Celtic Consecration (refer Gallican rite) that is employed in the consecration of a church. Salt may be added to the water &quot;where it is customary&quot; in the Roman Catholic rite of Holy water. In the native Japanese religion Shinto, salt is used for ritual purification of locations and people, such as in Sumo Wrestling. In Aztec mythology, Huixtocihuatl was a fertility goddess who presided over salt and salt water. - &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Salt in mythology][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The cause of the vrykolakas' inability to cross the sea seems to have not been handed down to us and as such **we do know the root causes of their weakness to cross water.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Inability to Cross Running Water**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; “It is said, too, that he can only pass running water at the slack or the flood of the tide.” – Van Helsing (Dracula 290)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Count, even if he takes the form of a bat, cannot cross the running water of his own volition, and so cannot leave the ship. – Jonathan Harker’s Journal, (Dracula 395)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **It is not known how Stoker arrived at this notion. Perhaps he invented it.** But there are precedents for this in folk beliefs. On some of the Greek islands, including Hydra, Kythnos, and Mitylene, there was occasionally found the practice of re-burying the corpse of an alleged vampire on a desert island in belief that the vampire could not cross the water to another shore. For example, Rennel Rodd tells us: “Hydra is said to have been formerly infected by vampires, but a zealous bishop transferred them to the unoccupied island of Therasia, in the Santorini group, where they still walk at night, but being unable to cross salt water, find no one to torment” (194). In China too, the undead were sometimes believed unable to cross water. For example, the revenant in one Chinese folktale retold by Olga Hoyt (35-37) turns into a wolf upon being frustrated by its inability to cross a stream in pursuit of a man. But it still can’t cross the water. And when this man returns to the revenant’s grave, he finds the body of an infant sucked dry of blood. There are also precedents in the British Isles, albeit these apply to other supernatural creatures. Oxford scholar Katherine Briggs notes: “If chased by evil fairies, one could generally escape by leaping to safety across running water, particularly a southward flowing stream” (336). - &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Count Dracula and the Folkloric Vampire: Thirteen Comparisons][3] by Patrick Johnson&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are only a few sources where we can really glean a possible explanation as to a possible causes for the reason why they can not cross the sea, but we can not say with any surety the true cause. Sea water seemed to be a protection against vrykolakas but it is unknown as to why. Nevertheless we may be able to glean something out of the following:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Vrykolakas were usually thought to be indistinguishable from living people, giving rise to many folk tales with this theme. Crosses and antidoron (blessed bread) from the church were used as wards in different places. To prevent vampires from rising from the dead, their hearts were pierced with iron nails whilst resting in their graves, or their bodies burned and the ashes scattered. Because the Church opposed burning people who had received the myron of chrismation in the baptism ritual, cremation was considered a last resort.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In many Greek islands they used put the cemeteries in islets, near the main island, because they believed that vampires could not cross the sea (sea water are considered to be vampire colonies). There are many islets that are considered to be vampire colonies. There are many islets that are considered to be vampire colonies. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Some of the most well known are: &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Islet Bau-Across the port of Mykonos &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Islet Hecate-Near Delos&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Reef of Panagia-Northern Evia &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Islet Kameni-Santorini &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Islet grave-Kefalonia &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Islets Nekrothikes and Plati-Pserimos&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Vrikolakonisia-Nothern Skyros &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Islet Kalathas-Chania,Crete &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Demon islands-Nothern Sporades &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Islet Goni-Inouses&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Islet Venetiko-Chios&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Vampires in Greece][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Santorini islet Kameni ][5]][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Santorini islet Kameni][4] &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vrykolakas&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.supernatural-fan-wiki.com/page/Salt&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://kutztownenglish.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/jds_v3_2001_johnson.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread807976/pg1&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Q0zrX.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9703" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2319" RevisionGUID="7c256605-5a73-4e9f-8886-257db5fd503f" CreationDate="2017-01-28T09:13:14.970" UserId="57" Comment="edited body" Text="In chapter 10 of the Saga of the Völsungs, Regin is trying to convince Sigurd that [Fafnir][1] is an average size dragon: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Young am I,&quot; says Sigurd, &quot;yet know I the fashion of this worm, and how that none durst go against him, so huge and evil is he.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Regin said, &quot;Nay it is not so, the fashion and the growth of him is even as of other lingworms, and an over great tale men make of it; and even so would thy forefathers have deemed; but thou, though thou be of the kin of the Volsungs, shalt scarce have the heart and mind of those, who are told of as the first in all deeds of fame.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Story of the Volsungs, translated by William Morris and Eirikr Magnusson&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When the pair ride to slay the dragon, however, Sigurd realizes from Fafnir's tracks that the dragon is a tad larger than Regin lead him to believe. Regardless, Sigurd - with a little help from the ever-present Odin - slays Fafnir. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm trying to get a basic understanding of the mechanics of dragon slaying in Norse mythology, and the comments on Fafnir's size piqued my interest. How large did the Norse imagine dragons to be? Do any of their legends give explicit information on the size of dragons?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fafnir" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9710" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2341" RevisionGUID="189db40e-5ad8-4764-aa7c-91c8a8fb292e" CreationDate="2017-01-30T11:37:00.557" UserId="3230" Text="The entrance to Dante's underworld is situated somewhere in a dark forest: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Midway in the journey of our life   	 	 	 &#xD;&#xA;I came to myself in a dark wood,  &#xD;&#xA;for the straight way was lost.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ah, how hard it is to tell  &#xD;&#xA;the nature of that wood, savage, dense and harsh --  &#xD;&#xA;the very thought of it renews my fear!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is so bitter death is hardly more so.  &#xD;&#xA;But to set forth the good I found  &#xD;&#xA;I will recount the other things I saw&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Canto I, Divina Commedia, edited by Giorgio Petrocchi and published by Mondadori*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dante often references classical works, and I wonder if this imagery was inspired by a Greco-Roman tale. A forest entrance to Hades, for example." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9711" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2341" RevisionGUID="189db40e-5ad8-4764-aa7c-91c8a8fb292e" CreationDate="2017-01-30T11:37:00.557" UserId="3230" Text="What is the inspiration behind the dark forest in Dante?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9712" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2341" RevisionGUID="189db40e-5ad8-4764-aa7c-91c8a8fb292e" CreationDate="2017-01-30T11:37:00.557" UserId="3230" Text="|underworld|dante|inferno|divine-comedy|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9713" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2341" RevisionGUID="7800eaee-e80f-418e-8bfe-200aa0da5906" CreationDate="2017-01-31T03:22:18.587" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|origins|underworld|dante|inferno|divine-comedy|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9714" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2342" RevisionGUID="74aa9255-c315-4a06-93bc-87c0cb98bd85" CreationDate="2017-01-31T20:06:39.527" UserId="197" Text="In Greek and Roman mythology, most of the famous oracles I've heard of were female.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The Oracle of Delphi (Pythia)&#xD;&#xA;- The Cumaean Sibyl (who sold books of prophecies to the king of Rome Tarquinius)&#xD;&#xA;- Cassandra, princess of Troy&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of particular interest is the blind oracle Teiresias, who was born male, but the gods have transformed him to female.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is this observation representative?  Did the ancient Greeks and Romans believe that women are more suitable to serve as oracles than men?  If so, what is the reason for this?  If not, do we know of famous male oracles?  I would prefer living mortals who served as oracles, as opposed to dead people who had to be consulted in the underworld.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9715" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2342" RevisionGUID="74aa9255-c315-4a06-93bc-87c0cb98bd85" CreationDate="2017-01-31T20:06:39.527" UserId="197" Text="Was divination a job reserved to women?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9716" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2342" RevisionGUID="74aa9255-c315-4a06-93bc-87c0cb98bd85" CreationDate="2017-01-31T20:06:39.527" UserId="197" Text="|greek|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9717" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2343" RevisionGUID="0ad600c4-98a3-4e07-89f7-f4da80bbf122" CreationDate="2017-01-31T20:53:18.860" UserId="666" Text="Certainly not the Romans, in general. For sure, the Roman [haruspex][1] and [augurs][2] were male. However, it is entirely possible that certain kinds of divination were linked to either sex, so that the kind of direct inspiration that seem to be the basis of the Cumaean Sybil or the oracle at Delphi were thought to be more of a female thing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for famous oracles, the most well-known haruspex is likely Spurinna, who warned Caesar to beware the Ides of March, according to Suetonius. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haruspex&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augur" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9719" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2344" RevisionGUID="a7701dd3-0d21-4e68-9f58-6d341a37f353" CreationDate="2017-02-01T12:11:36.240" UserId="2682" Text="Yes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. **Contact with the &quot;skin&quot; (surface) or the &quot;flesh&quot; (soil) of Mother Earth in Greek myth is generally an explanation for spontaneous life**, all the major characters in both these stories being literal descendants of Gaia, the Earth, whose ancestors&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; would have arisen from the Earth's womb in a similar manner to that in which Deucalion and Pyrrha's &quot;Stone-People&quot; and Cadmus's *Spartoi* do. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cf. also how Gaia's son the Libyan giant Antaeus draws life (by way of strength and energy to revive himself) through bodily contact with his mother's surface.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. **Zeus has indirectly pitted himself against both parties.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Deucalion and Pyrrha should not have survived the Flood, which was sent by Zeus in order to wipe out the human race, but on account of secret information disseminated to Deucalion by his father the Titan Prometheus, Pyrrha and her husband are able to make the necessary preparations for the oncoming cataclysm and thus live through the disaster.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cadmus might perhaps have become a king of the Canaanites if Zeus hadn't abducted his sister Europa, which thus thrust him into a mission to retrieve her, and which is the ultimate reason for his having ended up at the site of Thebes, slaying a dragon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus's actions against both families are thus an indirect cause of the rise of both the &quot;Stone-People&quot; and the Theban *Spartoi*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. **Both are stories about the Earth being repopulated not too long after the Flood.** In Deucalion and Pyrrha's case it is immediately afterwards. Cadmus is later but not by far, relatively speaking. His grandmother Libya, whom he is likely to have known, might have lived through the Flood, as it came during the reign of her father Epaphus over Egypt. Amphictyon, son of Deucalion and Pyrrha, was king of Athens at the time that Cadmus was building Thebes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Also Cadmus and the army of Egyptian Canaanites which he brought with him to Boeotia are said by Pausanias to have fought against and driven out the children of Deucalion and Pyrrha's cousin Hyas, a tribe called the Hyantes, from the site of Thebes.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More in particular than the whole Earth, both the cities inhabited by the Stone-People and the Spartoi had existed in different configuration before the Flood, and both of the parties of the main question became royal rulers of these cities once they had [re]built them. Deucalion and Pyrrha became king and queen of Phthia (in Thessaly), which before had been called Haemonia, while Cadmus became king of Cadmeia, later expanded into Thebes, which before was Ogygia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. **Both parties are instructed to perform apparently strange actions by the oracle at Delphi.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Deucalion and Pyrrha's case, this is before the time that Apollo has become the patron of the Delphi shrine, and the deity who gives the couple the instruction to &quot;cast the bones of your Great Mother over your shoulders&quot; is their own grandmother the Titaness Themis. (Or at least so it is in Ovid's *Metamorphoses*.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later on Cadmus will be told to stop searching for his missing sister and instead follow a cow to the site of the place in which he will build Cadmeia. Like with the casting of the Great Mother's bones, the instructions to Cadmus to sow the dragon's teeth come from a goddess; in this instance it is Athena.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Deucalion and Pyrrha are grandchildren of the Titans Iapetus and Themis while Cadmus is a great-grandson of the Titans Cronus and Rhea, all these Titans being children of Gaia.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;   " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9720" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2100" RevisionGUID="a1fdb9dd-803a-45b9-8efe-09ca99b2af5b" CreationDate="2017-02-01T12:12:45.613" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected spelling" Text="Specifically, both parties &quot;grow&quot; people by sowing &quot;bones&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Deucalion and Pyrrha sow &quot;the bones of [their] mother&quot; which is interpreted as being &quot;mother earth&quot; and thus rocks.  Thus they repopulated the earth after the flood.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Cadmus sows dragon's teeth, and after a slight kerfuffle, founds Thebes with the surviving *spartoi*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there other points of commonality with these figures?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9721" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2100" RevisionGUID="a1fdb9dd-803a-45b9-8efe-09ca99b2af5b" CreationDate="2017-02-01T12:12:45.613" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected spelling" Text="Are there any similarities between the Deucalion/Pyrrha myth and Cadmus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9724" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2217" RevisionGUID="3430801e-c1f5-45c1-8baa-7e85d8629b28" CreationDate="2017-02-01T19:43:45.173" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="9725" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2346" RevisionGUID="c34f4080-4af2-4d28-a7b7-074769d825a7" CreationDate="2017-02-01T20:51:32.517" UserId="2892" Text="[Calchas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calchas) was a very famous seer widely featured in material about the Trojan War.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9726" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2347" RevisionGUID="2ac69087-59ff-4a4b-b01a-d8466bd8a4da" CreationDate="2017-02-01T21:02:36.217" UserId="2892" Text="In the Marvel Universe, flight is one of Thor's powers.  (It's been a veeeeeeeery long time since I read the comics, but in the recent films he flies by holding onto Mjolnir's strap or handle, and is pulled along into the air by the hammer itself.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But my recollections of the Eddas are of Thor doing a lot of walking, and he even seems to slow down Odin and Loki, both expert shapeshifters, when they need Thor's companionship pending confrontations that can only be solved by exceptional feats of strength.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9727" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2347" RevisionGUID="2ac69087-59ff-4a4b-b01a-d8466bd8a4da" CreationDate="2017-02-01T21:02:36.217" UserId="2892" Text="Can Thor fly in Norse mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9728" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2347" RevisionGUID="2ac69087-59ff-4a4b-b01a-d8466bd8a4da" CreationDate="2017-02-01T21:02:36.217" UserId="2892" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9729" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2348" RevisionGUID="dea2a776-10bd-4edf-b97b-ede90a315455" CreationDate="2017-02-01T21:15:01.640" UserId="2892" Text="In the [William Buck's English translation](https://books.google.com/books/about/Ramayana.html?id=vvuIp2kqIkMC) I recall a note left by Ravana indicating he was aware of his impending demise at the hands of Rama, and got the impression being slain by Rama was something of an honor, possibly an enlightening experience.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is this this case?  Does Ravana kidnap Sita not only to validate her fidelity, but also in order to draw Rama to Lanka to end Ravana's incarnation? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9730" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2348" RevisionGUID="dea2a776-10bd-4edf-b97b-ede90a315455" CreationDate="2017-02-01T21:15:01.640" UserId="2892" Text="Is Ravana's true intent to be slain by Rama?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9731" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2348" RevisionGUID="dea2a776-10bd-4edf-b97b-ede90a315455" CreationDate="2017-02-01T21:15:01.640" UserId="2892" Text="|hindu|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9732" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2349" RevisionGUID="f653c298-7e41-4211-92cd-dc013c4e2123" CreationDate="2017-02-01T22:39:25.783" UserId="967" Text="Well, yes?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He uses his chariot to fly, not his hammer though.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Thor had a chariot to travel across the sky, which was drawn by two giant goats: Tanngniost and Tanngrisnir.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[source][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've never seen anything of Thor flying with Mjolnir. Doing a quick google search yields the same...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;However, the mythical version doesn't let Thor fly if he twirls it super fast.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[theoddsseyonline][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.ancient.eu/Thor/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.theodysseyonline.com/marvel-vs-myth" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9733" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2349" RevisionGUID="e5be84f4-4142-4c90-bc34-2acb6062858a" CreationDate="2017-02-01T23:09:44.933" UserId="398" Comment="deleted 14 characters in body" Text="He uses his chariot to fly, not his hammer though.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Thor had a chariot to travel across the sky, which was drawn by two giant goats: Tanngniost and Tanngrisnir.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[source][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've never seen anything of Thor flying with Mjolnir. Doing a quick google search yields the same...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;However, the mythical version doesn't let Thor fly if he twirls it super fast.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[theoddsseyonline][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.ancient.eu/Thor/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.theodysseyonline.com/marvel-vs-myth" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9735" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2351" RevisionGUID="2b76ba43-2119-4f22-a3c5-34e012e8abc9" CreationDate="2017-02-01T23:46:02.993" UserId="3413" Text="The metaphor was (probably) inspired partly by Medieval literature (courtly or theological) and partly by Virgilio's works, for example &quot;Georgiche&quot; that treats (also) about the myth of Orpheus, who attempted to rescue his dead lover Euridice from the Underworld.&#xA;Besides, as was already said in the comment, Dante could be influenced by Italian landscape; contact whit forest was routine for people in Medieval age, often it reached the limits of Italian's communes (city-states)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9736" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2352" RevisionGUID="5f5a5b44-ccf9-48ed-b804-5d788911b570" CreationDate="2017-02-02T07:36:51.397" UserId="666" Text="AFAIK, there is actually nothing that explicitly says that he can fly, even when he uses his chariot. [*Þrymskviða*, verse 21][1], describes how he goes to Jotunheim:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Then home the goats | to the hall were driven,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;They wrenched at the halters, | swift were they to run;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The mountains burst, | earth burned with fire,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;And Othin's son | sought Jotunheim.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This does not suggest flying. Furthermore, in [Hárbarðsljóð][2], Thor is returning from Jotunheim in the east, and gets involved in a flyting with a ferryman who refuses to carry him across. It is strange to imagine why he would have to do so if he could have taken his goats instead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only thing that comes close is how he is said to cause thunder, but there is no absolute need for that to come from free flight.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe11.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A1rbar%C3%B0slj%C3%B3%C3%B0" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9739" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2347" RevisionGUID="0e54fe49-2ea2-4de2-9a37-66425e4c855b" CreationDate="2017-02-02T11:41:20.943" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|thor|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9740" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2339" RevisionGUID="c68c131b-463b-4b25-92c5-c7111d9efa7e" CreationDate="2017-02-02T13:43:53.567" UserId="1241" Comment="Added 65 words for clarity and one link." Text="What is the reason that makes it impossible for a [vrykolakas][1] can not traverse the sea?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason for this may be in the salt contained in the water, but **this in itself can not be verified.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There are thirty-five verses which reference salt in the English translation of the Bible (King James Version), the earliest being the story of Lot's wife, who was turned into a pillar of salt when she disobediently looked back at the wicked cities of Sodom (Genesis 19:26). When King Abimelech destroyed the city of Shechem he is said to have &quot;sowed salt on it;&quot; a phrase expressing the completeness of its ruin. (Judges 9:45.) In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus referred to his followers as the &quot;salt of the earth&quot;. The apostle Paul also encouraged Christians to &quot;let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt&quot; (Colossians 4:6) so that when others enquire about their beliefs, the Christian's answer generates a 'thirst' to know more about Christ. Salt is mandatory in the rite of the Tridentine Mass. Salt is used in the third item (which includes an Exorcism) of the Celtic Consecration (refer Gallican rite) that is employed in the consecration of a church. Salt may be added to the water &quot;where it is customary&quot; in the Roman Catholic rite of Holy water. In the native Japanese religion Shinto, salt is used for ritual purification of locations and people, such as in Sumo Wrestling. In Aztec mythology, Huixtocihuatl was a fertility goddess who presided over salt and salt water. - &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Salt in mythology][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The cause of the vrykolakas' inability to cross the sea seems to have not been handed down to us and as such **we do know the root causes of their weakness to cross water.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Inability to Cross Running Water**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; “It is said, too, that he can only pass running water at the slack or the flood of the tide.” – Van Helsing (Dracula 290)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Count, even if he takes the form of a bat, cannot cross the running water of his own volition, and so cannot leave the ship. – Jonathan Harker’s Journal, (Dracula 395)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **It is not known how Stoker arrived at this notion. Perhaps he invented it.** But there are precedents for this in folk beliefs. On some of the Greek islands, including Hydra, Kythnos, and Mitylene, there was occasionally found the practice of re-burying the corpse of an alleged vampire on a desert island in belief that the vampire could not cross the water to another shore. For example, Rennel Rodd tells us: “Hydra is said to have been formerly infected by vampires, but a zealous bishop transferred them to the unoccupied island of Therasia, in the Santorini group, where they still walk at night, but being unable to cross salt water, find no one to torment” (194). In China too, the undead were sometimes believed unable to cross water. For example, the revenant in one Chinese folktale retold by Olga Hoyt (35-37) turns into a wolf upon being frustrated by its inability to cross a stream in pursuit of a man. But it still can’t cross the water. And when this man returns to the revenant’s grave, he finds the body of an infant sucked dry of blood. There are also precedents in the British Isles, albeit these apply to other supernatural creatures. Oxford scholar Katherine Briggs notes: “If chased by evil fairies, one could generally escape by leaping to safety across running water, particularly a southward flowing stream” (336). - &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Count Dracula and the Folkloric Vampire: Thirteen Comparisons][3] by Patrick Johnson&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are only a few sources where we can really glean a possible explanation as to a possible causes for the reason why they can not cross the sea, but we can not say with any surety the true cause. Sea water seemed to be a protection against vrykolakas but it is unknown as to why. Nevertheless we may be able to glean something out of the following:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Vrykolakas were usually thought to be indistinguishable from living people, giving rise to many folk tales with this theme. Crosses and antidoron (blessed bread) from the church were used as wards in different places. To prevent vampires from rising from the dead, their hearts were pierced with iron nails whilst resting in their graves, or their bodies burned and the ashes scattered. Because the Church opposed burning people who had received the myron of chrismation in the baptism ritual, cremation was considered a last resort.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In many Greek islands they used put the cemeteries in islets, near the main island, because they believed that vampires could not cross the sea (sea water are considered to be vampire colonies). There are many islets that are considered to be vampire colonies. There are many islets that are considered to be vampire colonies. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Some of the most well known are: &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Islet Bau-Across the port of Mykonos &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Islet Hecate-Near Delos&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Reef of Panagia-Northern Evia &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Islet Kameni-Santorini &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Islet grave-Kefalonia &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Islets Nekrothikes and Plati-Pserimos&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Vrikolakonisia-Nothern Skyros &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Islet Kalathas-Chania,Crete &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Demon islands-Nothern Sporades &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Islet Goni-Inouses&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Islet Venetiko-Chios&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Vampires in Greece][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Santorini islet Kameni ][5]][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Santorini islet Kameni][4] &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;**Nota Bene**: On the Feast of the Epiphany (January 6), the Greek Orthodox blesses the sea each year. Could this be a possible reason also?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greek Orthodox Church perform the Great Blessing of the Waters. After the divine liturgy, the clergy and the people go on a procession with the cross to the nearest body of living water (lake, sea, river, water depot). - [Epiphany in Greece: Blessing the Waters][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vrykolakas&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.supernatural-fan-wiki.com/page/Salt&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://kutztownenglish.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/jds_v3_2001_johnson.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread807976/pg1&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Q0zrX.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2011/01/06/epiphany-in-greece-blessing-the-waters/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9741" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2351" RevisionGUID="355f1642-35a1-4218-a1a3-ac9d0cac39df" CreationDate="2017-02-02T16:35:07.173" UserId="42" Comment="Changing names to more familiar English forms, minor grammatical fixes." Text="The metaphor was (probably) inspired partly by Medieval literature (courtly or theological) and partly by Virgil's works, for example the &quot;Georgics&quot; that, in part, discusses the myth of Orpheus, who attempted to rescue his dead lover Eurydice from the Underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Besides this, as was already said in a comment, Dante could be influenced by the Italian landscape; contact with forests was routine for people in the Medieval age, as it often reached the limits of Italy's communes (city-states)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9742" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2348" RevisionGUID="bf7168d6-3b44-47c1-b4a7-44bb9824c7a7" CreationDate="2017-02-02T22:33:33.017" UserId="31" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="In the [William Buck's English translation](https://books.google.com/books/about/Ramayana.html?id=vvuIp2kqIkMC) I recall a note left by Ravana indicating he was aware of his impending demise at the hands of Rama, and got the impression that being slain by Rama was something of an honor, possibly an enlightening experience.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is this the case?  Does Ravana kidnap Sita not only to validate her fidelity, but also in order to draw Rama to Lanka to end Ravana's incarnation? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9743" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2348" RevisionGUID="bf7168d6-3b44-47c1-b4a7-44bb9824c7a7" CreationDate="2017-02-02T22:33:33.017" Comment="Proposed by 31 approved by 2892 edit id of 420" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9744" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2308" RevisionGUID="cdc86427-7c88-4c57-b5ad-35bf8a3505b6" CreationDate="2017-02-02T22:38:27.237" UserId="2892" Comment="edited title" Text="Did Ragnarök influence the Apocalypse of John?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9745" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2353" RevisionGUID="752b5f22-2d29-4f46-9210-fd8155d5c0da" CreationDate="2017-02-02T22:42:59.137" UserId="2892" Text="Mesopotamia refers to a group of civilizations inhabiting the regions of the Tigris and Euphrates.  Most people know of the hero Gilgamesh, but may be unclear as to the distinctions between the mythologies of the cultures included under the Mesopotamian umbrella.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What are the major mythological traditions of Mesopotamia and how are they distinct?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9746" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2353" RevisionGUID="752b5f22-2d29-4f46-9210-fd8155d5c0da" CreationDate="2017-02-02T22:42:59.137" UserId="2892" Text="What are the major traditions of Mesopotamian mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9747" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2353" RevisionGUID="752b5f22-2d29-4f46-9210-fd8155d5c0da" CreationDate="2017-02-02T22:42:59.137" UserId="2892" Text="|mesopotamia|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9749" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2334" RevisionGUID="f764bb9a-0fe5-4557-bc23-c536b24956fe" CreationDate="2017-02-03T00:16:30.573" UserId="31" Comment="fixed spelling of omit and improved grammar" Text="According to Wikipedia, [Ovid's Four Ages of Man][1] are very similar to [Hesiod's Five Ages Man][2], with the exception of the Heroic Age.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why didn't Ovid include the Heroic Age?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_Man#Ovid.27s_Four_Ages&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_Man#Hesiod.27s_Five_Ages" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9750" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2334" RevisionGUID="f764bb9a-0fe5-4557-bc23-c536b24956fe" CreationDate="2017-02-03T00:16:30.573" UserId="31" Comment="fixed spelling of omit and improved grammar" Text="Why did Ovid omit the Heroic Age?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9751" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2334" RevisionGUID="f764bb9a-0fe5-4557-bc23-c536b24956fe" CreationDate="2017-02-03T00:16:30.573" Comment="Proposed by 31 approved by 2892, 1241 edit id of 419" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9752" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="2010" RevisionGUID="a83698af-1c56-4892-9e29-b985400d496d" CreationDate="2017-02-03T06:41:55.047" UserId="57" Comment="38" />
  <row Id="9753" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="1987" RevisionGUID="90ced386-b1e7-4027-bc53-d3cb49371222" CreationDate="2017-02-03T06:43:14.920" UserId="57" Comment="39" />
  <row Id="9754" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2354" RevisionGUID="1364dd63-fe17-4b53-b980-d16f3e76acc2" CreationDate="2017-02-03T07:48:13.477" UserId="31" Text="To the Greeks and later Romans Olympus was the mountain in northern Thessaly. Early Romans did not connect their Gods with Greek counterparts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Hesiod](http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm) has Olympus as a mountain&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...and the peaks of snowy Olympus resound, and the homes of the immortals&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As does Homer in the Iliad...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Down he came, in fury, from the heights of Olympus...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He later [describes the Gods](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad11.htm#BkXI1) as living&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  ...in the fine houses built for them among the folds of Olympus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Roman [Ovid](https://global.oup.com/us/companion.websites/9780195397703/student/archives/ovid/) also describes Olympus as a mountain&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I went down from lofty Olympus and, though a god...&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9756" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2355" RevisionGUID="aad36ac8-2130-4b3a-97ff-1bb55edc73f3" CreationDate="2017-02-03T16:24:30.190" UserId="3244" Text="All in all, it all depends on viewpoints. The writer's, the translator's, and the reader's. There are different and conflicting versions of the story, but Valmiki's *Ramayana* and the *Ramacharitmanas* are taken to be the main ones.&#xA;&#xA;There are three main types of versions of Ravan's Death.&#xA;&#xA; 1. In which he wanted to be killed by Ram&#xA; 2. In which the Gods made a plan for him to be killed by Ram&#xA; 3. In which Rama wanted to rescue Sita, and Ravan was a... Uhh... Casualty.&#xA;&#xA;All stories have these, or a combination thereof.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;In version 1, where Ravan wanted to be killed by Ram, there are very few possible reasons I can think of. One would be, that Ram being an avatar of Vishnu, anyone killed by him would go to *Vaikunth*, the realm of Vishnu, which is basically heaven to the hundredth power. And talking realistically, I believe this rumor is because all the preachers and so wanted to save Ram from the crime of *Brahma-Hatya-Paap*, the crime of killing a Brahmin, which Ravan, being a son of a son of Brahma, technically is (Even though he performed a special *puja* to get rid of all that *paap*). &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;It is the second version which I think most likely, as there would be several reasons the *Devas* would want Ravan to be killed.&#xA;&#xA; &#xA; &#xA; &#xA; &#xA; &#xA; - Ravan's father had two sons. Himself, a rakshas, and Kuber, a Yaksha. Kuber was the treasurer of the *Devas*, and had a mongoose which would spit out jewels every time he opened his mouth. Duo to this, Kuber was able to build himself an island city, *entirely out of gold*. It was named Lanka. Ravan came and conquered it, because he was jealous with Kuber for having it. So Kuber fled North, where he established *Alanka*, whose name gradually transformed into *Alakapuri* ( Puri means city ). So, Kuber had reason for wanting Ravan dead.&#xA; &#xA; &#xA; &#xA; &#xA; - Ravana had obtained a boon from Brahma, which stated that no deva or asura or [insert name of all creatures and species] could kill or defeat him. It just happened that he did not say anything about Humans or Monkeys, whether out of arrogance, or forgetfulness (try reading out a hundred or two pages of a novel continuously, by memory) I don't remember. Now, characteristically, he started wreaking havoc on all three worlds. So, the average person or deva hated him.&#xA; &#xA; &#xA; &#xA; - Not to mention how many kingdoms he destroyed, and how long he had been destroying them. ( One hears stories of him being cursed in a fight with Ram's great-great-so-on-grandfather.)&#xA; &#xA; - And I can just go on.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;The third version, I believe, is pretty self explaining.&#xA;&#xA;As an additional tidbit pertaining to the third version, I would like to show how Ram respected Ravan for his knowledge.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; LEARNING FROM RAVANA&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Ravana lay on the ground, breathing heavily, waiting for death to come. ‘Quickly,’ said Ram to Lakshman, ‘go to him and seek out his knowledge. He knew a lot.’&#xA;&#xA;&gt; So Lakshman went to Ravana and towering over him said, ‘I am Lakshman, brother of Ram, who has punished you for the crime of abducting his wife. As victor, he has a right to all that you possess, your knowledge included. If you have any honour, pass it on to him before you die.’&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Ravana simply turned his face away, angering Lakshman, who reported the scene to Ram.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Ram said, ‘Here is a man who grabbed his brother’s house and another man’s wife and you expected him to just give you what you so rudely and authoritatively demanded as your right. You clearly never saw Ravana.’&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Ram then discarded his weapons, walked up to Ravana, sat at his feet, joined his palms and spoke to Ravana in a gentle voice. ‘Noble one, son of Vishrava and Kaikesi, devotee of Shiva, brother of Surpanakha, Vibhishana and Kumbhakarna, father of Indrajit, uncle of Taranisen, friend of Mahiravana, husband of Mandodari, I salute you. I am Ram, who was responsible for mutilating your sister’s body, for which I have been duly punished. I am Ram, whose wife you abducted, for which you have been duly punished. We owe each other no debts. But I seek from you knowledge that you wish to leave behind as your legacy.’&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Like a dying lamp restored to life with a fresh offering of oil, Ravana’s eyes lit up. ‘I realize I never saw you, Ram. I just saw the man who my sister hated, my brothers respected, my queens admired and Sita loved. In seeking knowledge from me, you are hoping that I will finally expand my mind and discover the essence of the Vedas, which has eluded me, even though I know all the hymns and all the rituals. You are the ideal student whose curiosity makes the teacher wiser. I bow to you. Brahma tells us that to receive we have to give but most of us, like Indra, seek to receive without giving. Shiva seeks nothing, so he does not bother with the accounts of giving or receiving, but only Ram, who is Vishnu, receives by simply giving. That is why Sita follows him, not me.’&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Ravana then breathed his last.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Taken from *Sita: An Illustrated Version of the Ramayana* by Devdutt Pattnaik.&#xA;&#xA;Because *having* to kill is different from *wanting* to kill." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9757" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2355" RevisionGUID="b6755636-bca1-4a7a-ab80-1d4e9e85e0b2" CreationDate="2017-02-03T17:27:38.797" UserId="2892" Comment="Added some links" Text="All in all, it all depends on viewpoints. The writer's, the translator's, and the reader's. There are different and conflicting versions of the story, but [Valmiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valmiki)'s *Ramayana* and the *[Ramacharitmanas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramcharitmanas)* are taken to be the main ones.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are three main types of versions of Ravan's Death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. In which he wanted to be killed by Ram&#xD;&#xA; 2. In which the Gods made a plan for him to be killed by Ram&#xD;&#xA; 3. In which Rama wanted to rescue Sita, and Ravan was a... Uhh... Casualty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All stories have these, or a combination thereof.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In version 1, where Ravan wanted to be killed by Ram, there are very few possible reasons I can think of. One would be, that Ram being an avatar of Vishnu, anyone killed by him would go to *[Vaikunth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaikuntha)*, the realm of Vishnu, which is basically heaven to the hundredth power. And talking realistically, I believe this rumor is because all the preachers and so wanted to save Ram from the crime of *Brahma-Hatya-Paap*, the crime of killing a Brahmin, which Ravan, being a son of a son of Brahma, technically is (Even though he performed a special *puja* to get rid of all that *paap*). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is the second version which I think most likely, as there would be several reasons the *[Devas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deva_(Hinduism))* would want Ravan to be killed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA; - Ravan's father had two sons. Himself, a *[rakshas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakshasa)*, and Kuber, a *[yaksha](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaksha)*. Kuber was the treasurer of the *Devas*, and had a mongoose which would spit out jewels every time he opened his mouth. Due to this, Kuber was able to build himself an island city, *entirely out of gold*. It was named [Lanka](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanka). Ravan came and conquered it, because he was jealous with Kuber for having it. So Kuber fled North, where he established *Alanka*, whose name gradually transformed into *Alakapuri* ( Puri means city ). So, Kuber had reason for wanting Ravan dead.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA; - Ravana had obtained a boon from Brahma, which stated that no deva or asura or [insert name of all creatures and species] could kill or defeat him. It just happened that he did not say anything about Humans or Monkeys, whether out of arrogance, or forgetfulness (try reading out a hundred or two pages of a novel continuously, by memory) I don't remember. Now, characteristically, he started wreaking havoc on all three worlds. So, the average person or deva hated him.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA; - Not to mention how many kingdoms he destroyed, and how long he had been destroying them. ( One hears stories of him being cursed in a fight with Ram's great-great-so-on-grandfather.)&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA; - And I can go on.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The third version, I believe, is pretty self explanatory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As an additional tidbit pertaining to the third version, I would like to show how Ram respected Ravan for his knowledge.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; LEARNING FROM RAVANA&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ravana lay on the ground, breathing heavily, waiting for death to come. ‘Quickly,’ said Ram to Lakshman, ‘go to him and seek out his knowledge. He knew a lot.’&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So Lakshman went to Ravana and towering over him said, ‘I am Lakshman, brother of Ram, who has punished you for the crime of abducting his wife. As victor, he has a right to all that you possess, your knowledge included. If you have any honour, pass it on to him before you die.’&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ravana simply turned his face away, angering Lakshman, who reported the scene to Ram.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ram said, ‘Here is a man who grabbed his brother’s house and another man’s wife and you expected him to just give you what you so rudely and authoritatively demanded as your right. You clearly never saw Ravana.’&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ram then discarded his weapons, walked up to Ravana, sat at his feet, joined his palms and spoke to Ravana in a gentle voice. ‘Noble one, son of Vishrava and Kaikesi, devotee of Shiva, brother of Surpanakha, Vibhishana and Kumbhakarna, father of Indrajit, uncle of Taranisen, friend of Mahiravana, husband of Mandodari, I salute you. I am Ram, who was responsible for mutilating your sister’s body, for which I have been duly punished. I am Ram, whose wife you abducted, for which you have been duly punished. We owe each other no debts. But I seek from you knowledge that you wish to leave behind as your legacy.’&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Like a dying lamp restored to life with a fresh offering of oil, Ravana’s eyes lit up. ‘I realize I never saw you, Ram. I just saw the man who my sister hated, my brothers respected, my queens admired and Sita loved. In seeking knowledge from me, you are hoping that I will finally expand my mind and discover the essence of the Vedas, which has eluded me, even though I know all the hymns and all the rituals. You are the ideal student whose curiosity makes the teacher wiser. I bow to you. Brahma tells us that to receive we have to give but most of us, like Indra, seek to receive without giving. Shiva seeks nothing, so he does not bother with the accounts of giving or receiving, but only Ram, who is Vishnu, receives by simply giving. That is why Sita follows him, not me.’&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ravana then breathed his last.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Taken from *Sita: An Illustrated Version of the Ramayana* by Devdutt Pattnaik.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Because *having* to kill is different from *wanting* to kill." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9758" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2353" RevisionGUID="d80a395f-e207-4b12-9c74-f05833929691" CreationDate="2017-02-03T17:32:18.310" UserId="2892" Comment="slightly clarified the question" Text="Mesopotamia refers to a group of civilizations inhabiting the regions of the Tigris and Euphrates.  Most people know of the hero Gilgamesh, but many may be unclear as to the distinctions between the mythologies of the cultures included under the Mesopotamian umbrella.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What are the major branches of Mesopotamian mythology and how are they distinct?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9759" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2353" RevisionGUID="d80a395f-e207-4b12-9c74-f05833929691" CreationDate="2017-02-03T17:32:18.310" UserId="2892" Comment="slightly clarified the question" Text="What are the major branches of Mesopotamian mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9760" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2346" RevisionGUID="84c548e7-7f0e-430a-b907-f96337ad2473" CreationDate="2017-02-03T19:32:38.817" UserId="2892" Comment="Added a point about the Fates and Pythonesses" Text="[Calchas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calchas) was a very famous seer widely featured in material about the Trojan War.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, there does seem to be special emphasis on women as seers, in that the [Moirai](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moirai), [Parcae](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parcae) and the [Norns](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norns), for example, are female.  (This may have to do with [weaving](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textiles_in_mythology_and_folklore), which in many Ancient cultures, was strongly associated with women.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Pythoness](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Pythoness)es of Delphi certainly reinforce the association. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_______________________________&#xD;&#xA;*Interesting to note that [Πυθώ](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%A0%CF%85%CE%B8%CE%AF%CE%B1#Ancient_Greek) (Pūthṓ) is phonetically similar to [πίθος](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%A0%CF%85%CE%B8%CE%AF%CE%B1#Ancient_Greek) (píthos), which is associated with Pandora, the mother of the race of women,&quot; and that the words share some similar meanings. The root of putho word can also refer to &quot;depths, hollow&quot; which is a characteristic of jars (pithoi), and further, can be said to represent a female sexual characteristic, similar to the &quot;sheathe&quot; origin of &quot;vagina&quot;. Another meaning of putho definition as &quot;rot or decay&quot;, which could be related to the noxious gasses that rise from the vents at Delphi, and also relate to the pithos of Pandora, which was associated with a decline of civilization per the evils borne in that jar.*  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9761" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2346" RevisionGUID="69e1fd79-bc59-48cd-ad87-1ef18ea5043d" CreationDate="2017-02-03T20:00:06.090" UserId="2892" Comment="Added a link to the Latin etymology for *wagina*" Text="[Calchas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calchas) was a very famous seer widely featured in material about the Trojan War.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, there does seem to be special emphasis on women as seers, in that the [Moirai](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moirai), [Parcae](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parcae) and the [Norns](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norns), for example, are female.  (This may have to do with [weaving](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textiles_in_mythology_and_folklore), which in many Ancient cultures, was strongly associated with women.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Pythoness](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Pythoness)es of Delphi certainly reinforce the association. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_______________________________&#xD;&#xA;*Interesting to note that [Πυθώ](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%A0%CF%85%CE%B8%CE%AF%CE%B1#Ancient_Greek) (Pūthṓ) is phonetically similar to [πίθος](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%A0%CF%85%CE%B8%CE%AF%CE%B1#Ancient_Greek) (píthos), which is associated with Pandora, the mother of the race of women,&quot; and that the words share some similar meanings. The root of putho can also refer to &quot;depths, hollow&quot; which is a characteristic of jars (pithoi), and further, can be said to represent a female sexual characteristic, similar to the &quot;sheathe&quot; origin of &quot;[vagina](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vagina#Etymology_7)&quot;. Another meaning of putho definition as &quot;rot or decay&quot;, which could be related to the noxious gasses that rise from the vents at Delphi, and also relate to the pithos of Pandora, which was associated with a decline of civilization per the evils borne in that jar.*  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9763" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2344" RevisionGUID="8aaae1e5-58e5-4326-b3ca-6fdd7f2f28fa" CreationDate="2017-02-04T09:03:35.873" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; corrected a detail" Text="Yes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. **Contact with the &quot;skin&quot; (surface) or the &quot;flesh&quot; (soil) of Mother Earth in Greek myth is generally an explanation for spontaneous life**, all the major characters in both these stories being literal descendants of Gaia, the Earth. The first Earth-born ancestors would have arisen from the Earth's womb in a similar manner&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; to that in which Deucalion and Pyrrha's &quot;Stone-People&quot; and Cadmus's *Spartoi* do. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cf. also how Gaia's son the Libyan giant Antaeus draws life (by way of strength and energy to revive himself) through bodily contact with his mother's surface.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. **Zeus has indirectly pitted himself against both parties.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Deucalion and Pyrrha should not have survived the Flood, which was sent by Zeus in order to wipe out the human race, but on account of secret information disseminated to Deucalion by his father the Titan Prometheus, Pyrrha and her husband are able to make the necessary preparations for the oncoming cataclysm and thus live through the disaster.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cadmus might perhaps have become a king of the Canaanites if Zeus hadn't abducted his sister Europa, which thus thrust him into a mission to retrieve her, and which is the ultimate reason for his having ended up at the site of Thebes, slaying a dragon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus's actions against both families are thus an indirect cause of the rise of both the &quot;Stone-People&quot; and the Theban *Spartoi*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. **Both are stories about the Earth being repopulated not too long after the Flood.** In Deucalion and Pyrrha's case it is immediately afterwards. Cadmus is later but not by far, relatively speaking. His grandmother Libya, whom he is likely to have known, might have lived through the Flood, as it came during the reign of her father Epaphus over Egypt. Amphictyon, son of Deucalion and Pyrrha, was king of Athens at the time that Cadmus was building Thebes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Also Cadmus and the army of Egyptian Canaanites which he brought with him to Boeotia are said by Pausanias to have fought against and driven out the children of Deucalion and Pyrrha's cousin Hyas, a tribe called the Hyantes, from the site of Thebes.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More in particular than the whole Earth, both the cities inhabited by the Stone-People and the Spartoi had existed in different configuration before the Flood, and both of the parties of the main question became royal rulers of these cities once they had [re]built them. Deucalion and Pyrrha became king and queen of Phthia in Thessaly while Cadmus became king of Cadmeia, which later was expanded into Thebes but before was called Ogygia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. **Both parties are instructed to perform apparently strange actions by the oracle at Delphi.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Deucalion and Pyrrha's case, this is before the time that Apollo has become the patron of the Delphi shrine, and the deity who gives the couple the instruction to &quot;cast the bones of your Great Mother over your shoulders&quot; is their own grandmother the Titaness Themis. (Or at least so it is in Ovid's *Metamorphoses*.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later on Cadmus will be told to stop searching for his missing sister and instead follow a cow to the site of the place in which he will build Cadmeia. Like with the casting of the Great Mother's bones, the instructions to Cadmus to sow the dragon's teeth come from a goddess; in this instance it is Athena.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Deucalion and Pyrrha are grandchildren of the Titans Iapetus and Themis while Cadmus is a great-grandson of the Titans Cronus and Rhea, all these Titans being children of Gaia.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;   " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9764" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2357" RevisionGUID="dd25fb36-6973-446d-b8c5-c36e13ec1edd" CreationDate="2017-02-04T10:17:40.537" UserId="2682" Text="Yes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's quite a clever play on words in the aetiology (origin account) of the cockle, shellfish or sea-snail, which, according to Aaron Atsma of The Theoi Project website, was called a *nȇritȇs*. The Greco-Roman writer Aelian, c. late 100s—early 200s AD, reports that while the epic poets, like Homer and Hesiod, fail to mention a character called Nerites in their works nearly one thousand years earlier, sailors in Aelian's time celebrated such an individual in their folklore. Nerites, they said, was the lastborn child of the sea deities Nereus and Doris, born an only son after his fifty sisters who were called the Nereides [Nereids]. The word-play here would have it that Nerites is equivalent to a masculine form of *Nereis* [Nereid], &quot;Offspring of Nereus.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The goddess Aphrodite grew up in the sea together with its divine inhabitants. Among these was the young sea-god Nerites, who was more beautiful than any other god or man, and who became her childhood sweetheart. When Aphrodite was elevated to the rank of one of the highest Olympian deities, she invited Nerites to join her on Mt Olympus, but he preferred to live in the sea with his parents and sisters, so he declined the offer. Aphrodite attempted to sweeten the deal by granting to her first love the power to grow wings, which Nerites, in Aelian's words, &quot;counted as nothing&quot; (perhaps because wings cannot be much use underwater). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Enraged at this, Aphrodite plucked off Nerites' wings and transformed him into a shellfish. Now there was another young and beautiful god named Eros&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;, who was either a son of Aphrodite (said to have been engendered in different ways, in one version parthenogenetically [without the assistance of male seed]) or who ascended Mt Olympus at the same time as this goddess did. Aphrodite made Eros into her companion and attendant in order to replace Nerites and she gave this newer god the wings of which she had just deprived her lover.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus the story explains why Eros has wings, in addition to narrating the origin of a certain pretty type of saltwater mollusk, which happens to have a name that sounds like it belongs to the son of the Old Man of the Sea.&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aelian does not explicitly say it, but my assumption is that Nerites was *not* transformed into an *immortal* snail or shellfish but that the animal which he became eventually died after having produced the second generation of these mollusks, from which the cockles, shellfish or sea-snails of the present day are descended. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Wikipedia article on this Nerites character](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerites_(mythology)) adds that Nerites's sister Nerea begged their brother-in-law Poseidon (who was married to the Nereid Amphitrite) to restore Nerites to his original form, which Poseidon did. The only ancient source cited by the article is Aelian's book *On Animals*, which mentions neither this request nor anything like the idea that Nerites was restored to his former glory by Poseidon or anyone else.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aelian reports a different version of this mariner's tale, which does not feature Aphrodite at all but rather has Nerites becoming the charioteer of Poseidon. Going by this account, the sun-god Helios, for some unexplained reason, changed Nerites into the sea animal which came to bear his name. Aelian suggests that Helios and Poseidon had beef with each other and that the Sun's action was intended as a swipe against the Sea-King. Aaron Atsma speculates that there might have been jealousy on Helios's part, as he, being a charioteer himself, envied Nerites's swift driving of his master's vehicle through the sea, perhaps having been challenged to a race by the young water-deity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover the Nerites Wikipedia article says that the bit about Nerea's intervention in order to retrieve her brother from his shell-locked fate is an undifferentiated constant in this second version. She approaches Poseidon for assistance and he acquiesces by changing his charioteer back to his old self. Again, the ancient sources do not appear to have anything about this.       &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his book [*The Poetic Achievement of Ezra Pound*](https://books.google.com/books?id=PS5ViNfdDCoC&amp;pg=PA158&amp;lpg=PA158&amp;dq=Nerea#v=onepage&amp;q=Nerea&amp;f=false), Michael Alexander says that the Imagist poet Ezra Weston Loomis Pound invented the character Nerea in the 1st stanza of his unfinished poem *The Cantos* (first published 1925). I have found no references to Nerites in Pound; the Wikipedia article may be the earliest piece of literature which contains the idea that a sister of Nerites was involved in the misadventure of his metamorphosis.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Known more famously by his Roman name Cupid  &#xD;&#xA;2. *Halios Geron*, &quot;Old Man of the Sea,&quot; was a nickname of Nereus&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;     " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9766" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2358" RevisionGUID="fdea0a58-3a2f-4f44-ad03-4db35278a727" CreationDate="2017-02-04T21:23:30.483" UserId="3422" Text="The poetic Eddas say that Freya chose half of the dead in battle and the other half went to Odin in Valhalla, the Valkyries take the slain only after Freya chooses her half. Odin gave this right to Freya as a sign of friendliness for the Vanir, to end the war between them and the aesir and get their friendship. Freya went on to live with the Aesir in Asgard with her brother Freyr, Fólkvangr is in Asgard rather than Vanaheim, Freya's home world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Eventually the two tribes of divinities became weary of fighting and decided to call a truce. As was customary among the ancient Norse and other Germanic peoples, the two sides agreed to pay tribute to each other by sending hostages to live among the other tribe. Freya, Freyr, and Njord of the Vanir went to the Aesir, and Hoenir (pronounced roughly “HIGH-neer”) and Mimir went to the Vanir.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;http://norse-mythology.org/tales/the-aesir-vanir-war/&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The 14 stance of the Grímnismál poem of the poetic Edda says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;14. Folkvang is the ninth,&#xD;&#xA;there Freyja directs&#xD;&#xA;the sittings in the hall.&#xD;&#xA;She half the fallen chooses each day,&#xD;&#xA;but Odin th’ other half.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;_1866 Benjamin Thorpe &#xD;&#xA;in Edda Sæmundar Hinns Frôða &#xD;&#xA;“The Lay of Grimnir”&quot;_&#xD;&#xA;http://www.germanicmythology.com/PoeticEdda/GRM14.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So according to the historical resources it's Freya who chooses, and Odin gets the other half of the warriors slain i battle" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9767" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2359" RevisionGUID="04d643f9-219c-45b0-9151-febb4ad587a0" CreationDate="2017-02-04T22:13:30.367" UserId="3422" Text="It's not surprising that germanic and celtic myths are so similar, both cultures/mythologies are in fact the same culture with minor differences due to regional separation. All Indo-European cultures are different branches of the same culture, the proto-into-european culture, that was the original culture of the Aryans when they invaded/migrated across Eurasia and settled in Europe, the Middle east and north India, from their historical homeland in the asian russian steppes between the regions of Kazakhstan and Ukraine, near the Aral sea (according to the Kurgan hypothesis). With a quick comparative research one will realize this, one example is the dual patheon trait in the I.E. mythologies, where a panthon of human-like deities defeats and dominates, or go to war and then allies through a truce, with an older pantheon of monsters or more primitive/primordial beings that represent the natural forces; Aesir-Vanir, Tuatha de Danann-Fomorians, Olympians-Titans, Devas-Asuras... Another example is the presence of a world tree, the tree of life. Or humans being made from wood, rather than sand, mud or blood like in semitic mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now concerning the female role in society it was very important, essential. Women were considered equal to men in importance. Women were very highly regarded in magic and priesthood, women could became druids (the priests and doctos of law of celtic society, one of the highest positions in society where a person had to study for 20 years in a Druidic academy before being able to start their priesthood) like any man. It's been described by historias that when gaulish tribes went to war they always had females priests to bless them. There's a myth of two gaulish tribes that were going to battle, but the women intervened and solved the problems with diplomacy and friendliness. &#xD;&#xA;In germanic society it was very similar, the Seiðr were a class of magical and religious priests in Nordic society that were predominantly women, one of the most important Vanir deities, Freya herself was heavily associated with magic." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9768" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2360" RevisionGUID="8ff2e0b2-56d5-4543-bfd7-73f08723a212" CreationDate="2017-02-04T22:35:42.670" UserId="3422" Text="One thing that must be pointed out is that all the Indo-european cultures (Germanic, celtic, slavic, greek, persian, vedic...) are the same, they're simply different branches of the same culture/mythology, that originated due to regional separation, as the Indo-Europeans invaded/migrated to different lands and different populations settled in regions isolated from each other, therefopre being inevitable the appearance of minor differences between these different branches, but the main aspects are the same. One of the first bigger historical civilizations created by the Indo-Europeans was the vedic civilization in North India, in the Vedic cosmology Brahma is the main God, he's everything, the universe itself, and the other gods are different manifestations of Brahma, avatars with different traits to be worshipped, the reason for that is for channeling of spiritual energy, in the vedic texts it's called Nirgunabrahman, the impersonal, attributeless Absolute, or Parabrahman, the Supreme Absolute.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Myth-wise, the deities in these different cultures can vary, while there may be in one  culture in a certain location a deity that personifies the universe, originally it's the main God that is the primordial energy of life (Brahma), in the greek mythology that would be Zeus, in the celtic mythology it would be Dagda (or Dagodeus in gaulish), in the persian zoroastrian religion it would be Ahura Mazda, and in the germanic mythology, Odin certainly. This primordial spirit is the essence of everything that is and ever was." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9769" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2358" RevisionGUID="cbbd9e47-e3b9-4052-8d41-8e41e664c843" CreationDate="2017-02-04T22:44:36.737" UserId="967" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="The poetic Eddas say that Freya chose half of the dead in battle and the other half went to Odin in Valhalla, the Valkyries take the slain only after Freya chooses her half. Odin gave this right to Freya as a sign of friendliness for the Vanir, to end the war between them and the aesir and get their friendship. Freya went on to live with the Aesir in Asgard with her brother Freyr, Fólkvangr is in Asgard rather than Vanaheim, Freya's home world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Eventually the two tribes of divinities became weary of fighting and decided to call a truce. As was customary among the ancient Norse and other Germanic peoples, the two sides agreed to pay tribute to each other by sending hostages to live among the other tribe. Freya, Freyr, and Njord of the Vanir went to the Aesir, and Hoenir (pronounced roughly “HIGH-neer”) and Mimir went to the Vanir.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;http://norse-mythology.org/tales/the-aesir-vanir-war/&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The 14 stance of the Grímnismál poem of the poetic Edda says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;14. Folkvang is the ninth,&#xD;&#xA;there Freyja directs&#xD;&#xA;the sittings in the hall.&#xD;&#xA;She half the fallen chooses each day,&#xD;&#xA;but Odin th’ other half.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;_1866 Benjamin Thorpe &#xD;&#xA;in Edda Sæmundar Hinns Frôða &#xD;&#xA;“The Lay of Grimnir”&quot;_&#xD;&#xA;http://www.germanicmythology.com/PoeticEdda/GRM14.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So according to the historical resources it's Freya who chooses, and Odin gets the other half of the warriors slain in battle." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9770" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2360" RevisionGUID="7be2518a-5783-484d-911b-3914c8e59044" CreationDate="2017-02-04T22:48:41.800" UserId="3422" Comment="added 1838 characters in body" Text="One thing that must be pointed out is that all the Indo-european cultures (Germanic, celtic, slavic, greek, persian, vedic...) are the same, they're simply different branches of the same culture/mythology, that originated due to regional separation, as the Indo-Europeans invaded/migrated to different lands and different populations settled in regions isolated from each other, therefopre being inevitable the appearance of minor differences between these different branches, but the main aspects are the same. One of the first bigger historical civilizations created by the Indo-Europeans was the vedic civilization in North India, in the Vedic cosmology Brahma is the main God, he's everything, the universe itself, and the other gods are different manifestations of Brahma, avatars with different traits to be worshipped, the reason for that is for channeling of spiritual energy, in the vedic texts it's called Nirgunabrahman, the impersonal, attributeless Absolute, or Parabrahman, the Supreme Absolute.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The celtic mythology is the one I'm most familiar with (shame for a swede :P), so I can give you a more in depth example, Dagodeus is referred to as the vortex of existence, Trinertá, Dagodeus is depicted as a three faced God, that is the explanation for such a motiff as a trinity being so present in I.E. cultures, other I.E. deities such as Brigid being also three faced or having three manifestations/personalities, and for I.E. religious symbols such as the triskelion and the swastika being a vortex always in movement. As you can read in a post in my blog I've written years ago:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*&quot;...The universe emerged from a triad, Trinertá, the Three Forces. the three elements, ie, the two opposing forces and their resultant, arising from the first movement in the Immensity supra-causal and non-differentiated Bituimon. This triad is the primary basis for all aspects of the universe. These three basic forces are mentioned in cosmology as a centripetal attraction, a centrifugal force and balance.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*The centripetal action, personified by Lugus, the immanent, the Preserver of the universe is called Biwotúts (&quot;existence&quot;), because there is a concentration of energy, a force of agglomeration. On the mental plane, the cohesive force is the tendency that lights up the unit.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*The centrifugal action, called Demerá (&quot;dark&quot;), is the force that seeks to prevent the dispersion concentration. This tendency toward disintegration is the symbol of the final dissolution of all existence in Non-Being. It therefore represents a release. This force of annihilation is personified by dits firing, the Destroyer of Worlds, also called Dagodéwos, Good God.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*The balance of centripetal and centrifugal gives rise to the third trend, the tendency to orbiting, Suimon, which is the source of the activity. She is personified by the Creator, He-Who-Is-Eternal Bitumios...&quot;*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://blackewood.blogspot.com.br/2011/11/trinerta-three-forces.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Myth-wise, the deities in these different cultures can vary, while there may be in one  culture in a certain location a deity that personifies the universe, originally it's the main God that is the primordial energy of life (Brahma), in the greek mythology that would be Zeus, in the celtic mythology it would be Dagda (or Dagodeus in gaulish), in the persian zoroastrian religion it would be Ahura Mazda, and in the germanic mythology, Odin certainly. This primordial spirit is the essence of everything that is and ever was." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9772" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2361" RevisionGUID="83ae8f0e-9e3e-4997-b5dd-965e7a702cbb" CreationDate="2017-02-05T20:21:10.093" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9773" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2361" RevisionGUID="83ae8f0e-9e3e-4997-b5dd-965e7a702cbb" CreationDate="2017-02-05T20:21:10.093" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9774" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2362" RevisionGUID="c3ac5f03-4418-45df-8420-0ddae61a01ab" CreationDate="2017-02-05T20:21:10.093" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9775" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2362" RevisionGUID="c3ac5f03-4418-45df-8420-0ddae61a01ab" CreationDate="2017-02-05T20:21:10.093" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9776" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2363" RevisionGUID="87318821-438d-454b-a8cd-301226e2c4d4" CreationDate="2017-02-05T20:36:32.413" UserId="3428" Text="Snakes have long been associated with fertility and the subtle creative force across many cultures. Their counterpart was often the bull who stood for active virility." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9777" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2364" RevisionGUID="fab2fc35-bc65-4521-9a7e-c51d591aefa2" CreationDate="2017-02-06T04:24:57.233" UserId="3422" Text="Basically the same as the titans in greek mythology. Just like the titan Gaia, the Jotunn Jord is Earth herself. Likewise the celtic goddess Danu is mother of all life and Earth, she's often depicted as the embodiment of nature pregnant, displaying fertility. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All indo-european pantheons display the same archetype, that is a dual-pantheon system in which a human-like pantheon of gods, that taught us human things like music and art, magic, military prowess, metal smithing, crop techniques... defeated an older pantheon of more primitive/primordial gods, that are usually chaotic, and represent the natural forces that humans don't have control over, storms, snow... This common mythology thematics mirrors the Indo-European people's own history, in which from their homeland in the asian steppes of Kazakhstan they invaded/migrated to new lands and spread their domain all across Eurasia and conquered the inhabitants.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's this misconception in popular culture, (thanks to things like the marvel comics...) that giants (Jotunn) are exclusively evil and enemies of the gods and humanity, which couldn't be further from the truth. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9780" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2365" RevisionGUID="3df4b47f-2c27-419c-85b9-816bdbf0e7af" CreationDate="2017-02-06T14:22:25.167" UserId="31" Text="The snake as a symbol for creation is common across many cultures mythologies. The mythologist [Joseph Campbell pointed out](http://sunrec.tumblr.com/post/49042928209/excerpt-from-the-power-of-myth-by-joseph) that&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The serpent sheds its skin to be born again ... it  lives by killing and eating itself, casting off death and being reborn, like the moon" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9781" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2366" RevisionGUID="cc1cf58a-db94-47ff-b482-d70ad77c2238" CreationDate="2017-02-06T14:22:27.123" UserId="3430" Text="I'm looking for deities or mythological creatures that symbolize the universe in that the universe manifests as duality, as is symbolized by the Yin/Yang, but I want a fictional organism or spirit rather then a symbol, an example would be [Eliphas Levi's Baphomet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baphomet) who is an organism of united polar opposites (female/male, man/beast, angel/demon, good/evil).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do any deities or creatures like that exist apart from Baphomet?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Deities that symbolize Nothing or Zero are also of interest since zero is the only number that can be expressed as equal and mutually cancelling numerical polarities or **`0 = (+n) + (-n)`**, **`0 = ☯`**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/GWzDS.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9782" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2366" RevisionGUID="cc1cf58a-db94-47ff-b482-d70ad77c2238" CreationDate="2017-02-06T14:22:27.123" UserId="3430" Text="What deities/creatures personify the universe in the aspect that it manifests as varied duplexity (that serve the same symbolic function as Yin/Yang)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9783" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2366" RevisionGUID="cc1cf58a-db94-47ff-b482-d70ad77c2238" CreationDate="2017-02-06T14:22:27.123" UserId="3430" Text="|mythical-creatures|demi-gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9784" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2366" RevisionGUID="3aadb434-1b28-45d3-bbc8-9dcf84f920e6" CreationDate="2017-02-06T14:31:32.630" UserId="3430" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|symbolism|demi-gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9785" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2366" RevisionGUID="3aadb434-1b28-45d3-bbc8-9dcf84f920e6" CreationDate="2017-02-06T14:31:32.630" UserId="3430" Comment="edited tags" Text="I'm looking for deities or mythological creatures that symbolize the universe in that the universe manifests as a duality, as is symbolized by the Yin/Yang, but I want a fictional organism or spirit rather then a symbol, an example would be [Eliphas Levi's Baphomet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baphomet) who is an organism of united polar opposites (female/male, man/beast, angel/demon, good/evil).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do any deities or creatures like that exist apart from Baphomet?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Deities that symbolize Nothing or Zero are also of interest since zero is the only number that can be expressed as equal and mutually cancelling numerical polarities or **`0 = (+n) + (-n)`**, **`0 = ☯`**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/GWzDS.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9786" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2366" RevisionGUID="d597d811-67ee-44dc-ab93-3bf8fa7ae544" CreationDate="2017-02-06T14:37:13.330" UserId="3430" Comment="edited tags" Text="I'm looking for deities or mythological creatures that symbolize the universe in the aspect that it manifests as a duality (which is for example symbolized by the Yin/Yang), but as a fictional organism/spirit rather then a symbol, an example would be [Eliphas Levi's Baphomet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baphomet) who is an organism of united polar opposites (female/male, man/beast, angel/demon, good/evil).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do any deities or creatures like that exist apart from Baphomet?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Deities that symbolize Nothing or Zero are also of interest since zero is the only number that can be expressed as equal and mutually cancelling numerical polarities or **`0 = (+n) + (-n)`**, **`0 = ☯`**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/GWzDS.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9787" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2366" RevisionGUID="1c0d3d72-3518-4415-b105-5d24fe4df31f" CreationDate="2017-02-06T15:57:02.440" UserId="111" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|myth-identification|symbolism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9788" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2366" RevisionGUID="63c67ba4-8b29-4fd4-ab93-985811f05915" CreationDate="2017-02-06T16:26:06.970" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 92 characters in body" Text="I'm looking for deities or mythological creatures that symbolize the universe in the aspect that it manifests as a duality (which is for example symbolized by the Yin/Yang), but as a fictional organism/spirit rather than a symbol, an example would be [Eliphas Levi's Baphomet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baphomet) who is an organism of united polar opposites (female/male, man/beast, angel/demon, good/evil).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do any deities or creatures like that exist apart from Baphomet?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Deities that symbolize Nothing or Zero are also of interest since zero is the only number that can be expressed as equal and mutually canceling numerical polarities or **`0 = (+n) + (-n)`**, **`0 = ☯`**." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9789" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2366" RevisionGUID="af428581-5566-465c-b97c-53a618ef36f0" CreationDate="2017-02-06T16:27:02.887" UserId="3430" Comment="added 6 characters in body" Text="I'm looking for deities or mythological creatures that symbolize the universe in the aspect that it manifests as a duality (which is for example symbolized by the Yin/Yang), but as a fictional organism/spirit rather than a plain symbol, an example would be [Eliphas Levi's Baphomet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baphomet) who is an organism of united polar opposites (female/male, man/beast, angel/demon, good/evil).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do any deities or creatures like that exist apart from Baphomet?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Deities that symbolize Nothing or Zero are also of interest since zero is the only number that can be expressed as equal and mutually canceling numerical polarities or **`0 = (+n) + (-n)`**, **`0 = ☯`**." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9790" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2366" RevisionGUID="45b4d07b-eb3a-46fa-80c8-74e7ec61879a" CreationDate="2017-02-07T14:57:39.290" UserId="3430" Comment="deleted 207 characters in body" Text="I'm looking for deities or mythological creatures that symbolize the universe in the aspect that it manifests as a duality (which is for example symbolized by the Yin/Yang), but as a fictional organism/spirit rather than a plain symbol, an example would be [Eliphas Levi's Baphomet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baphomet) who is an organism of united polar opposites (female/male, man/beast, angel/demon, good/evil).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do any deities or creatures like that exist apart from Baphomet?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9791" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2367" RevisionGUID="c21680cd-620d-441e-98f1-eb19bb33f83b" CreationDate="2017-02-09T00:26:36.893" UserId="292" Text="Two very good answers, I just want to point out that the giantesses have a role in religion as well. We know that Jarl Hakon of Norway worshipped the giantess Thorgerdr Holgabrudr, who apparently helped him in battle. (See [this pdf file][1] for more on her.) Also, when Skadi and Loki are arguing in the poem *Lokasenna*, she tells him:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; You know, if first and foremost you were at the killing   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; when you attacked Thiazi,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; from my sanctuaries and plains shall always come  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; baneful advice for you. (51, Carolyne Larrington's translation)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lotte Motz was a pioneer in studying giants and especially the giantesses. One of her papers, [The Divided Image][2], looks at the way giantesses could be beautiful and desirable or else monstrous.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://is.cuni.cz/studium/predmety/index.php?do=download&amp;did=58348&amp;kod=ARL100253&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.unz.org/Pub/MankindQuarterly-1987q2-00463" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9792" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2368" RevisionGUID="3ca1c000-a172-4203-a3ca-545417286ab3" CreationDate="2017-02-09T10:35:31.930" UserId="3439" Text="I would like to read more about Herakles twelve labors but I have a hard time finding books about it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would like to know if there are any remaining work about it ? &#xD;&#xA;I am looking for work dating from the Greek or Roman era." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9793" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2368" RevisionGUID="3ca1c000-a172-4203-a3ca-545417286ab3" CreationDate="2017-02-09T10:35:31.930" UserId="3439" Text="Goods reads about Herakles/Hercules twelve labors?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9794" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2368" RevisionGUID="3ca1c000-a172-4203-a3ca-545417286ab3" CreationDate="2017-02-09T10:35:31.930" UserId="3439" Text="|greek|hercules|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9795" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2368" RevisionGUID="577c79c9-80e8-4739-99c4-77283c2d8ccf" CreationDate="2017-02-09T11:30:34.670" UserId="3439" Comment="deleted 45 characters in body" Text="I would like to read more about Herakles twelve labors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would like to know if there are any remaining work about it ?  &#xD;&#xA;I am looking for work dating from the Greek or Roman era." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9796" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2368" RevisionGUID="a48345f8-c032-4596-9077-d661350727d6" CreationDate="2017-02-09T13:56:20.127" UserId="111" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|hercules|source-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9797" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2369" RevisionGUID="8285ca14-1915-4d6c-ac7f-6c1e8eaeefc4" CreationDate="2017-02-09T16:13:25.463" UserId="398" Text="If you're looking for a summary of what the ancient poets wrote about, your best bet would be to look at Pseudo-Apollodorus' [*Bibliotecha*](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus2.html#5). The *Bibliotecha* is a work that collates nearly all of Greek mythology into a single, coherent narrative, including the Labors of Heracles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you want an even quicker summary, there's also Hyginus' [*Fabulae*](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusFabulae1.html#30), but you'll notice a major difference in length!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you're looking for something comparable to the *Iliad* or *Odyssey*, I'm afraid you'll be at a lost, as none of the epics about Heracles' labors survived. That said, if you check out the [Theoi](http://www.theoi.com/greek-mythology/heracles.html) page on Heracles' labors, you'll find a hefty collection of allusions and references about them scattered throughout extant Greek and Roman works." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9798" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2370" RevisionGUID="ab780b94-7f1c-462a-8304-013d906ab82c" CreationDate="2017-02-09T16:51:53.607" UserId="2774" Text="That is almost a too broad question!&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Historical writting&quot; Mesopotamia started around 3100/3000 BC  and vanished roughly in 549  when the Persian king Cyrius II the Great (an Achaemenid, the movie 300 include Xerxes a later one) conquered Babylon. We could consider the Achaemenid and their successors the Greek Seleucids as Mesopotamians, but I will not here.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sumer&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;Simply speaking the older civilization on Earth. They are renown for creating the very first writing system using clay tablets and coined shaped letters, the cuneiform.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Sumerian texts are generally speaking extremely short (under 100 lines) and obviously rooted in an oral tradition with a distinctive litany style. Their main god was Enlil, a thunder/weather god. Other important gods was Enki a water god, Inanna the love goddess and Nergal the death/war god. Other than that they got a god for almost everything and a specific concept called &quot;Me&quot; which could be identified as roughly the spirit of the things.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Most noticeable texts are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The matter of Arratta, which is a series of texts describing the fight between Ur and Arrata.&#xD;&#xA; - The matter of Gilgamesh, which is a series of texts about the hero Gilgamesh (note this is NOT the Epic of Gilgamesh, hence my use of 'matter')&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can find here on SE some descriptions/analysis of those texts by me.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The pantheon of Sumerian gods will be used in all Mesopotamia, it forms also some of the backbone of the early books in the bible (Abraham is orginally from Ur, around 1800, roughly just before the end of Sumer)&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Akkad&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;It is extremely difficult to separate Akkadians from Sumerians. Akkadians was a Semitic people but came close to Sumer and exchanged/fought a lot with them. In term of mythological stuff, they tapped heavily in Sumerian customs and practices, and bring two new significant things:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - first named poet in history: Enheduanna, which was a daughter of king Sargon is known to have written a praise of Innana (Ishtar). Globally Mesopotamian does not named any poets, so every piece we got are from totally anonymous writer except this piece (if she actually did wrote that).&#xD;&#xA; - The city fall lamentations: The most valuable is the curse of Akkad which describes the fall of Akkad in the hand of barbarians and thus the end of Akkad, you see there some of the gods removing their protection on Akkad.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Akkad is mostly where we find the war goddess aspect of Innana (when she is more a love goddess for Sumerians). It is known in the Bible as Accad.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Understanding the difference between Sumer and Akkad is understanding that: Sumer was a bunch of city state fighting against each others. Akkad was an empire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Babylon&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;Toward 1800BC a small city at the north of Sumer emerged, Babylon, in the late part of the reign of Hammurabi. Babylonian was another semitic people as Akkadian. They will engulf all Mesopotamia in a very short time signing the end of Sumer.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In term of myths, they will tap in the Sumerian/Akkadian (sumerio-akkadian) pantheon, and built on it, adding a whole bunch of gods before the first Sumerian god (An), and add their own tutelary god, Marduk, the Merodach of the Bible, in the middle of it. Note also that while extending the pantheon they paradoxically dramatically reduced the number of gods!&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;What they bring is: written tradition, Sumerian texts are short and from an obvious oral tradition. Babylonian texts are incredibly longer and much better as work of litteracy.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Most remarkable texts are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The Enuma Elish: This is the story of Marduk becoming the chief god of the Babylonian pantheon and the fight between Marduk and his ancestor the dragon/snake Tiamat&#xD;&#xA; - The Epic of Gilgamesh: the story of Gilgamesh's friendship with Enkidu and his vain quest to faint death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I gave some comparison between Huwawa episode in Sumer and the one that appears in the Epic of Gilgamesh.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Other than that, Babylonian was not truly monotheists, but tended to worship Marduk over any other god, totally disrupting with the Sumerio-Akkadian traditional polytheism.They was users of idols.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Babylon is highly referenced in the Bible. The tower of Babel (probably a ziggurat) is a pretty damn good example.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Assyria&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;Assyria is related to Babylon, the same way Akkad is related to Sumer. Assyria was situated in the north of Babylon. The relationship they had with Babylon is so tight that most of the Babylonian/Sumerian/akkadian text we have come from there, especially Nineveh in the library of king Ashurbanipal. For the rest Assyria and Babylon got a love/hate relationship fighting until Assyria vanished. But that also means, like Akkadians, Assyrians tapped heavily in the Babylonian religion to form their own religion. Funily enough there is no per se any &quot;big text book&quot; from the Assyrian.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The main Assyrian god was Ashur, and it is extremely sure he was highly worshiped. Ashur represent the counterpart of Marduk which was also an Assyrian god, but not a big one.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;You find roughly the same pantheon than in Babylon. Assyria also brings also specific gods one of them being the fish/wind god Dagon than is used in the Bible and by Howard Lovecraft as a Big Old One. But that is due to their proximity with Hurrians and hittites.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;One other point worth mentioning is Assyrian like Akkadian was a pretty military nation, they did engulf Egypt and most of the Hittite empire. And Babylonian was more like Sumer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Others&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;Others Mesopotamians can include the Hurrians, and their successors the Hittites, most well known myths is the cycle of Kumarbi (A kind of Sumerian Enlil), well known for being the base of the Greek theogony.&lt;BR&gt; &#xD;&#xA;The Persians who brought Zoroastrism after Mesopotamia is conquered. Note that the Persian starting with Darius will use Assyrian as the linga franca, if that shows anything.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Greeks finally brought their own gods.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;One has to see Mesopotamia as a very complex land, with lots of history, one region taking precedence, vanishing, coming back, and so on; that what you hear about Assyrians, and neo-Assyrians, Babylonians and neo-Babylonians, Ur I, Ur II, Ur III. Most of the texts we own are deeply rooted in their Sumerian heritage. A good example is taking a look at the most common version of the Epic of Gilgamesh, coming from the late Assyrian Nineveh which is a transcription of the tradition Babylonian Epic, knowing it exists other versions including older one. Or seeing the Enuma Elish Akkadian roots.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9799" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="596" RevisionGUID="51fa6011-fb62-4757-9bfc-cdf12b464ed9" CreationDate="2017-02-09T16:57:33.513" UserId="57" Comment="40" />
  <row Id="9800" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2362" RevisionGUID="ceacaed3-6001-451f-a766-289461f28bdd" CreationDate="2017-02-09T17:17:18.623" UserId="3427" Comment="added 39 characters in body" Text="questions related to mythology in India" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9801" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2362" RevisionGUID="ceacaed3-6001-451f-a766-289461f28bdd" CreationDate="2017-02-09T17:17:18.623" Comment="Proposed by 3427 approved by 967, 398 edit id of 421" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9802" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1221" RevisionGUID="eba3f061-a9d6-4d96-8b34-93844b2e4860" CreationDate="2017-02-10T00:29:17.417" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="9804" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="18" RevisionGUID="c5387f8e-00d5-40a8-82ca-a2173c4346d8" CreationDate="2017-02-10T04:10:22.627" UserId="183" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:183,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;HDE 226868&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="9806" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="1987" RevisionGUID="7b035a5d-8aef-49c7-a47d-1ae4040df465" CreationDate="2017-02-11T08:11:10.650" UserId="-1" Comment="39" />
  <row Id="9808" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2034" RevisionGUID="ddb6e07a-bdff-48ec-8260-915aae962556" CreationDate="2017-02-12T16:31:09.330" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="9810" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2034" RevisionGUID="1f7e21cf-cf4c-4682-ae05-60a07b1e5015" CreationDate="2017-02-13T17:12:57.993" UserId="430" Comment="Added some words to improve the grammar " Text="In Indo-European mythology, particular, in Slavic, Baltic and Germanic mythologies there is a so-called World Tree, more precisely, World Oak that plays a sacred role and connects the underworld to heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is mentioned in Pushkin's poem [&quot;Ruslan and Ludmila&quot;][1] which starts &quot;At Lukomorie there is an oak green, a golden chain is on that oak...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I looked up what Lukomorie is. It literally means &quot;a sea arc, bow&quot;. Russian Wikipedia describes it as &quot;in Slavic mythology, a holy place at the edge of universe, where the World Tree grows&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [The Tale of Igor's Campaign][2] describing Prince Igor's campaign of 1185 uses this word to refer to the area near the North-Western shore of the Azov sea, as do other sources. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is a map that labels the tribe occupying the region as &quot;Lukomorie Polovtsi&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A Google map of the area indeed shows bow-like formations:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But what is more interesting, is where the sea reached formerly. In fact, formerly the sea occupied the arc-shaped gulf (now called Milk Liman) reaching beyond the modern city of Melitopol.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][5]][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lets look even closer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][6]][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a place that was formerly situated at the very end of the bow-shaped gulf, at the very shore of the sea.&#xD;&#xA;The bright spot on the photo is the [archeological site Kamennaya Mogila][7]. The place was venerated as a holy site at least from the 20th century BC to 12th century AD (possibly, even 17th century), well after the adoption of Christianity by the Kievan Rus. Some researchers (Rossokha) think it was venerated since the era of Proto-Indo-European unity, namely, [Sredny Stog culture][8]. This makes it the longest continuously venerated pagan holy site. The innards of the site are inscribed with a non-deciphered ancient language.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][9]][9]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The site is located at the place of ancient estuary of the river, called by Herodotus as Γέρρος, which a Scythian name, that comes from a Sanskrit-related language where it was called [Gorasa][10] which literally means &quot;milk&quot;, and even in Modern Russian it is called &quot;Milk river&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, I wonder, how probable it is that the so-called World Oak was originally located at this place.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][11]][11]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://russian-crafts.com/tales/rus_lud.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tale_of_Igor%27s_Campaign&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/KqHMW.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/HCkqS.png&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://storage7.static.itmages.ru/i/16/1012/h_1476248341_4164123_30eef8c695.png&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/NH0bE.png&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamyana_Mohyla&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sredny_Stog_culture&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/u7VPs.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=gorasa&amp;direction=SE&amp;script=HK&amp;link=yes&amp;beginning=&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://discover-ukraine.info/uploads/i/i/4f282d36bdb9c6.87610163.185.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9811" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2034" RevisionGUID="1f7e21cf-cf4c-4682-ae05-60a07b1e5015" CreationDate="2017-02-13T17:12:57.993" UserId="430" Comment="Added some words to improve the grammar " Text="Where was the World Tree located?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9812" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2034" RevisionGUID="1f7e21cf-cf4c-4682-ae05-60a07b1e5015" CreationDate="2017-02-13T17:12:57.993" Comment="Proposed by 430 approved by 2774, 3078 edit id of 422" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9813" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2372" RevisionGUID="db1418f0-238a-4ddf-b363-07d05ad17cb9" CreationDate="2017-02-14T10:22:15.667" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Many mythologies have deities whom either personify the Earth or sky(e.g. Gaia and Uranus). However, are there any deities that represent other realms, like how Tartarus is the personification of Tartarus? Also,please take note that by &quot;realms&quot;, I mean places that are inhabited(e.g. Asgard of Norse mythology, Aaru of Ehyptian mythology) and not places such as the Sun and moon." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9814" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2372" RevisionGUID="db1418f0-238a-4ddf-b363-07d05ad17cb9" CreationDate="2017-02-14T10:22:15.667" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Are there any deities that personify realms other than the Earth or sky?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9815" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2372" RevisionGUID="db1418f0-238a-4ddf-b363-07d05ad17cb9" CreationDate="2017-02-14T10:22:15.667" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9816" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2373" RevisionGUID="7839b065-d3f9-45b5-9220-484cf88bc77c" CreationDate="2017-02-14T16:27:15.963" UserId="666" Text="Hel&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Hel][1] personified and rules the &quot;bad&quot; afterlife in norse mythology. In fact, she took her name from [it][2]. There has been speculation that she as a mythological figure was an invention by Snorri, however, as other sources always talk about figures being &quot;in Hel&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hel_(being)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hel_(location)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9817" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2374" RevisionGUID="3cc2ffcc-01d1-4eeb-b342-cedd1a4fed92" CreationDate="2017-02-14T18:09:11.410" UserId="42" Text="Tutelary deities: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tutelary deities that personify or protect places are very common around the world. The Romans had major tutelary deities or their cities, the well-known Capitoline Triad for instance, but also on smaller scale with [Lares Compitales](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lares), guardian deities of neighborhoods, and [Genius Loci](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genius_loci).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Chinese folk religion is rife with place-bound tutelary deities. Notably, the [Dragon kings of the four seas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_King#Dragon_Kings_of_the_Four_Seas), and the [Chenghuangshen (city gods)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_God_(China)), along with gods or river, mountains, towns, etc. Similarly, the Hindu [Gramadevata](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramadevata), as well as numerous others, especially shamanistic and folk religions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Underworld deities:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The underworld is envisioned in many different ways, but there is usually some deity that serves as it's representative. Examples include: Ereshkigal, Hades, Yama, Satan, Hel, Mictlantecuhtli, Izanami, Osiris, Xibalba, Hine-nui-te-pō, etc." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9818" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2346" RevisionGUID="9f3cb3db-0cbb-4afd-830c-4786b89076e7" CreationDate="2017-02-14T19:21:56.017" UserId="2892" Comment="Added a note about Tiresias" Text="[Calchas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calchas) was a very famous seer widely featured in material about the Trojan War.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, there does seem to be special emphasis on women as seers, in that the [Moirai](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moirai), [Parcae](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parcae) and the [Norns](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norns), for example, are female.  (This may have to do with [weaving](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textiles_in_mythology_and_folklore), which in many Ancient cultures, was strongly associated with women.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Pythoness](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Pythoness)es of Delphi certainly reinforce the association. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;C.M. Weimar provided an excellent note about Tiresias, who I had overlooked.  What is especially salient is that Tiresias is an hermaphrodite. He was transformed into a woman when he hit a pair of copulating snakes with his stick. *(A Freudian interpretation of what is going on there would not be out of bounds;)*  Tiresias was subsequently returned to manhood by laving another pair of mating snakes unmolested, or alternately, trampling them to death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Also interesting to note that [Πυθώ](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%A0%CF%85%CE%B8%CE%AF%CE%B1#Ancient_Greek) (Pūthṓ) is phonetically similar to [πίθος](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%A0%CF%85%CE%B8%CE%AF%CE%B1#Ancient_Greek) (píthos), which is associated with Pandora, the mother of the race of women,&quot; and that the words share some similar meanings. The root of putho can also refer to &quot;depths, hollow&quot; which is a characteristic of jars (pithoi), and further, can be said to represent a female sexual characteristic, similar to the &quot;sheathe&quot; origin of &quot;[vagina](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vagina#Etymology_7)&quot;. Another meaning of putho definition as &quot;rot or decay&quot;, which could be related to the noxious gasses that rise from the vents at Delphi, and also relate to the pithos of Pandora, which was associated with a decline of civilization per the evils borne in that jar.*  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9819" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2373" RevisionGUID="bde4162f-c768-44d6-9a74-ecfd95c195b6" CreationDate="2017-02-15T17:45:04.787" UserId="666" Comment="added 348 characters in body" Text="Hel&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Hel][1] personified and rules the &quot;bad&quot; afterlife in norse mythology. In fact, she took her name from [it][2]. There has been speculation that she as a mythological figure was an invention by Snorri, however, as other sources always talk about figures being &quot;in Hel&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Margaret Clunies Ross says that most poetic contexts are not sufficiently clear for us to distinguish between Hel as a place and Hel as &quot;the personified guardian of that place&quot;, and that she and her attributes are &quot;tangliable&quot; personifications. (I'm translating back from a translation of *Prolonged Echoes*, so the quotes are likely not exact).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hel_(being)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hel_(location)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9820" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2375" RevisionGUID="29bc7ab0-cf69-447b-bd34-bf1b0cab89da" CreationDate="2017-02-16T23:48:50.150" UserId="292" Text="I wonder if it's because he and his &quot;son&quot; are in Co. Meath at the time. They were watching out for Medb's army at  Iraird Cuilenn (Crossakiel, County Meath), not in Ulster.  &#xD;&#xA;Another explanation might be that after he sets out to warn the Ulstermen, first they don't heed him, then he accidentally dies, after which his head continues to warn them, and they finally get the message.  &#xD;&#xA;This might seem a bit meta, but if the storyteller and everyone else knew that he wasn't going to be in the fight, they wouldn't question his not being affected. (Since according to my theory as soon as he re-entered Ulster he should have been affected as well.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9821" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2346" RevisionGUID="9631c707-aa7e-43ab-92bd-18e721954397" CreationDate="2017-02-17T01:16:49.177" UserId="2892" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="[Calchas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calchas) was a very famous seer widely featured in material about the Trojan War.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, there does seem to be special emphasis on women as seers, in that the [Moirai](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moirai), [Parcae](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parcae) and the [Norns](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norns), for example, are female.  (This may have to do with [weaving](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textiles_in_mythology_and_folklore), which in many Ancient cultures, was strongly associated with women.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Pythoness](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Pythoness)es of Delphi certainly reinforce the association. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;C.M. Weimar provided an excellent note about Tiresias, whom I had overlooked.  What is especially salient is that Tiresias is an hermaphrodite. He was transformed into a woman when he hit a pair of copulating snakes with his stick. *(A Freudian interpretation of what is going on there would not be out of bounds;)*  Tiresias was subsequently returned to manhood by leaving another pair of mating snakes unmolested, or alternately, trampling them to death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Also interesting to note that [Πυθώ](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%A0%CF%85%CE%B8%CE%AF%CE%B1#Ancient_Greek) (Pūthṓ) is phonetically similar to [πίθος](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%A0%CF%85%CE%B8%CE%AF%CE%B1#Ancient_Greek) (píthos), which is associated with Pandora, the mother of the race of women,&quot; and that the words share some similar meanings. The root of putho can also refer to &quot;depths, hollow&quot; which is a characteristic of jars (pithoi), and further, can be said to represent a female sexual characteristic, similar to the &quot;sheathe&quot; origin of &quot;[vagina](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vagina#Etymology_7)&quot;. Another meaning of putho definition as &quot;rot or decay&quot;, which could be related to the noxious gasses that rise from the vents at Delphi, and also relate to the pithos of Pandora, which was associated with a decline of civilization per the evils borne in that jar.*  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9822" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2376" RevisionGUID="6919e089-e324-4e59-bea2-8c052af37500" CreationDate="2017-02-17T14:17:21.027" UserId="3459" Text="Did the Moirai / [3 Fates][1] take precedence over the Gods responsible for love and marriage?  What relationship, if any, does Greek canon state about the link between Hera, Eros and Moirai?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moirai" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9823" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2376" RevisionGUID="6919e089-e324-4e59-bea2-8c052af37500" CreationDate="2017-02-17T14:17:21.027" UserId="3459" Text="Did the Moirai (3 Fates) also control lovers destiny or was that the responsibility of another deity?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9824" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2376" RevisionGUID="6919e089-e324-4e59-bea2-8c052af37500" CreationDate="2017-02-17T14:17:21.027" UserId="3459" Text="|greek|hera|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9825" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2194" RevisionGUID="7c7c7141-a8e5-4c30-880b-7b80630ac758" CreationDate="2017-02-17T16:33:47.567" UserId="14" Comment="added 240 characters in body" Text="There are three prominent Hindu philosophies today: Advaita or monism, Dvaita or dualism, and Visistadvaita or qualified monism.  Now the chief exponent of Dvaita was the 13th century philosopher Madhvacharya, but that wasn't all he was.  He was a Vaishnava - someone who believes that the god Vishnu is supreme - but his brand of Vaishnavism was rather peculiar. Madhvacharya thought that Vayu the god of wind, whom he equated with the Mukhya Prana or chief vital breath, was a close associate of Vishnu.  And he even considered himself to be an incarnation of Vayu.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question is, has there been any scholarship as to the origins of Madhvacharya's Vayu-centric Vaishnava worldview?  Did Vayu start being associated with Visnnu before the time of Madhvacharya, or was this an innovation in Vaishnavism introduced by Madhvacharya?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now Vayu, like other elemental gods like Indra god of thunder, Agni god of fire, and Surya the sun god, was worshiped more in the Vedic period, but now they're hardly worshiped except in certain Hindu rituals.  But was there a revitalization of Vayu worship during the Middle Ages?  If so that might have caused Madhvacharya to incorporate Vayu into his system.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the record, I'm a Hindu and a Vaishnava, but I'm not a follower of Madhvacharya.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;EDIT: I should note that there's a Hindu scripture called the Garuda Purana which has a few chapters endorsing Madhvacharya's Vayu-centric Vaishnava worldview.  But those chapters were very likely added by Madhvacharya or his followers." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9826" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="596" RevisionGUID="98e82c37-eda2-4b6e-b6b8-9134caeb30f0" CreationDate="2017-02-17T18:53:16.793" UserId="-1" Comment="40" />
  <row Id="9827" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2376" RevisionGUID="59c294a2-b82b-4f9d-b7f3-1a925c429a34" CreationDate="2017-02-17T22:07:24.713" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|fates|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9832" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2117" RevisionGUID="55afec61-2681-4fe7-9d14-24673a4eb5f7" CreationDate="2017-02-18T22:12:13.277" UserId="467" Comment="edited body" Text="What examples do you know of from Greco-Roman myths in which the wind **as such** impregnates a woman (could be mortal or a goddess)? I'm aware of examples where the wind **personalized** as a god (e.g., Boreas, Zephyrus) impregnates a woman, which is thought of as sex, but here I'm interested in situations where it is just the wind as such and conception is not portrayed as occurring through implied copulation. There are examples of female **animals** (mares, hens, etc.) being impregnated by a non-personalized wind, but I'm having trouble coming up with examples of **women** from myths within the Greco-Roman orbit (there are examples from China, for instance)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9834" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="986" RevisionGUID="704afa9a-9a4b-4284-85e8-2909f04efcae" CreationDate="2017-02-19T13:11:34.080" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved formatting." Text="Short answer, no. There is no writing, inscription, artwork, statuary, or anything that indicates Horus (or Osiris) was crucified.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is death and resurrection in Horus' story, though. The Metternich Stele relates the story of Horus dying by the sting of a scorpion. Budge has a nice summary:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[THE LEGEND OF THE DEATH AND RESURRECTION OF HORUS, AND OTHER MAGICAL TEXTS.](http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/leg/leg11.htm)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now soon after Isis had restored to life the son of the woman who had shown churlishness to her, a terrible calamity fell upon her, for her beloved son Horus was stung by a scorpion and died. The news of this event was conveyed to her by the gods, who cried out to her to come to see her son Horus, whom the terrible scorpion Uhat had killed. Isis, stabbed with pain at the news, as if a knife had been driven into her body, ran out distraught with grief. It seems that she had gone to perform a religious ceremony in honour of Osiris in a temple near Hetep-hemt, leaving her child carefully concealed in Sekhet-An. During her absence the scorpion Uhat, which had been sent by Set, forced its way into the biding-place of Horus, and there stung him to death. When Isis came and found the dead body, she burst forth in lamentations, the sound of which brought all the people from the neighbouring districts to her side.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A little bit later: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then he came to Isis and told her that no harm could possibly have happened to Horus, for he was under the protection of the Boat of Ra; but his words failed to comfort Isis, and though she acknowledged the greatness of his designs, she complained that they savoured of delay. &quot;What is the good,&quot; she asks, &quot;of all thy spells, and incantations, and magical formulae, and the great command of maa-kheru, if Horus is to perish by the poison of a scorpion, and to lie here in the arms of Death? Evil, evil is his destiny, for it hath entailed the deepest misery for him and death.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In answer to these words Thoth, turning to Isis and Nephthys, bade them to fear not, and to have no anxiety about Horus, &quot;For,&quot; said he, &quot;I have come from heaven to heal the child for his mother.&quot; He then pointed out that Horus was under protection as the Dweller in his Disk (Aten), the Great Dwarf, the Mighty Ram, the Great Hawk, the Holy Beetle, the Hidden Body, the Divine Bennu, etc., and proceeded to utter the great spell which restored Horus to life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thinking of Horus as a prefiguration of Jesus Christ is a clear-cut case of [parallelomania](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&amp;rct=j&amp;q=&amp;esrc=s&amp;source=web&amp;cd=2&amp;cad=rja&amp;uact=8&amp;ved=0CCUQFjAB&amp;url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sbl-site.org%2Fassets%2Fpdfs%2Fpresidentialaddresses%2FJBL81_1_1Sandmel1961.pdf&amp;ei=OiuSVZSpM4na-QGc36uYDA&amp;usg=AFQjCNGryVzi_dnulla8QCrdTwahuEXf1w&amp;sig2=2PNWTsY81EwboxzU4iN62A&amp;bvm=bv.96783405,d.cWw) (warning: PDF). Unfortunately, with &quot;researchers&quot; like Acharya S., sometimes the faint parallels (death and revival) become the overarching theme, hiding away any (especially major!)  differences, and twists the rest of the narrative to fit. For example, this was not related to any divine soul-saving god, but rather to ancient Egyptian (religiously-based) medical practices. See Nunn 2002 _Ancient Egyptian Medicine_ [pp. 108–109](https://books.google.com/books?id=WHfEnVU6z8IC&amp;pg=PA108)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9835" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="984" RevisionGUID="3dcdb130-c28b-4c12-aed8-d580ddec2127" CreationDate="2017-02-19T13:20:04.623" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved formatting." Text="I've heard this claim before and see no evidence for it in any Egyptian texts or iconography. Acharya S is unscholarly, makes many silly mistakes, and thus is unreliable; and Maher's people obviously got his bullet points from the Acharya piece to which you linked in your question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Acharya throws up numerous points hoping that some of them will stick, but they don't. She doesn't cite any Egyptian texts that support her view, which is not surprising because there are none and, I would argue, there can be none. This is because the idea that Horus can be crucified and resurrected is logically precluded by Egypt's mythology and religious thinking. While a person is alive (taking the king as the example), he is Horus. But once you die, you become Osiris and are not Horus, so it can only be Osiris who is resurrected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not having any Egyptian texts to rely upon, Acharya relies on images of Horus with his arms out from his sides, and the idea that the Egyptian ankh and Christ's cross are the same. See this article:  [Was Horus &quot;Crucified?&quot;](http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/washoruscrucified.html) However, the ankh sign comes not from a cross but from a sandal strap (see Gardiner sign S34). In Egyptian, the ankh glyph is used to mean &quot;life&quot; as well as for the verb &quot;to live,&quot; but it never is an agency of death; in Egypt no one ever dies on an ankh, much less is crucified on one. There are no such images in the iconography, since crucifixion was not practiced in ancient Egypt (at least before Roman times). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further, a figure holding out his arms in itself says nothing about death or crucifixion, or a cross or Christ. Acharya's notion reminds me of Tertullian's laughable interpretation of Moses' surveying the Hebrews' (led by Joshua) battle against the Amalekites (Exod.17:8-13), where by standing on a hill and surveying the battle below, Moses (with help from Aaron and Hur) held his hands out to his sides and so caused the Hebrews to prevail. Tertullian claimed that this posture prefigured Christ and the cross, foretelling the cross through which Christ would be victorious over death and bring salvation. (Tertullian, *Against Marcion,* Book 3, Ch. 18.) No one would agree with such kinds of interpretations today. Yet Acharya relies on similarly ignorant/silly statements and wishful thinking by Church Fathers to support her claim.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the past it has sometimes been claimed (e.g., by Wallis Budge, in his *Legends of the Gods* (1912), see this article; [THE LEGEND OF THE DEATH AND RESURRECTION OF HORUS, AND OTHER MAGICAL TEXTS.](http://sacred-texts.com/egy/leg/leg11.htm) (Among Egyptologists, Budge is no longer considered reliable)) that, in a myth recited on the Metternich Stela now on exhibit at the Metropolitan Museum in New York, the child Horus is stung by a scorpion (which is Seth's doing), dies from the poison, and is resurrected by Thoth. But I know of no modern reading/translation of this text that has him dying rather than just unconscious and on the brink of death. The Stela's text itself says that &quot;the child was weak beyond answering,&quot; and &quot;refused the jar [of drink],&quot; which obviously means he is not dead. J.F. Borghouts, *Ancient Egyptian Texts* (1978), p. 63 (in lines 171-74 if the Stela). The scholarly discussions of the text accord with this interpretation. See Nora Scott, &quot;The Metternich Stela,&quot; The Metropolitan Museum of Art Bulletin 9.8:201-17 (1951) (Horus is &quot;unconscious&quot; (p. 213); Scott was Research Fellow in the Egyptian Art Department at the Met); John Nunn, Ancient Egyptian Medicine, p. 110 (1996) (Horus is &quot;unconscious&quot;); Robert Ritner, *The Mechanics of Ancient Egyptian Magical Practice,* p. 57 n. 266 (1993) (Horus is &quot;injured&quot;);  Geraldine Pinch, *Magic in Ancient Egypt,* pp. 144-45 (1994) (Horus is &quot;too weak and ill to suckle&quot; and has a &quot;sickness&quot;); Emily Teeter, *Religion and Ritual in Ancient Egypt,* p. 175 (2011) (Horus was was &quot;cured&quot; by Thoth, which does not seem like a raising from the dead). This interpretation makes sense in terms of the magical spells recited that invoked this myth to cure victims of snakebite, scorpion stings, etc., who are *still alive;* they are not being brought back from the dead. For this purpose, the recovery of Horus was being used as a parallel example, so it made sense that he too was only on the brink of death. It is like the Billy Crystal scene in *The Princess Bride,* where his character Miracle Max observes that Wesley is &quot;only mostly dead,&quot; and then proceeds to bring him back.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, to put it bluntly, the idea is a load of Horuss**t." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9837" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2378" RevisionGUID="8b9ef865-d246-4561-911f-7c12b4a9c3aa" CreationDate="2017-02-20T01:16:30.370" UserId="2892" Text="[Dionysus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus) is a great place to start—Baphomet is almost surely based, in part, on this figure.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Dionysus is sometimes depicted as the &quot;horned god&quot;, encompassing the human/animal binary.&#xD;&#xA; - Dionysus the &quot;Dying/Resurrected God&quot;, representing the life/death binary.&#xD;&#xA; - Dionysus is depicted with feminine attributes (long hair, &quot;eastern&quot; grooming which was considered feminized to the Greeks) suggesting the male/female binary. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding gender, it's notable that gender reversal were part of the [Dionysian Mysteries](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysian_Mysteries), appearing in such forms as transvestism and the female maenads taking on masculine attributes such as strength, ferocity, and freedom to roam.  [The Bacchae](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bacchae) of Euripides is a very important source work. *(At its core, the play is a commemoration of the dismemberment and his subsequent resurrection of the god, but even the Wikipedia summary provides a good sense of binaries dealt with in the play, primarily the tension between intellect and instinct, but also the dual nature of Dionysus himself.)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Persephone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persephone) is, in some sense, the female counterpart to Dionysus. She represents grain (body), where he represents wine (spirit).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Persephone is both Maiden and Crone&#xD;&#xA; - Persephone symbolizes both growing and dying (&quot;Summer&quot;/&quot;Winter&quot;) &#xD;&#xA; - She has two names, Kore (&quot;[Girl](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ko%2Frh&amp;la=greek&amp;can=ko%2Frh0#lexicon)&quot;) and Persephone (&quot;Destroyer&quot;)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Graves](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Graves) translates &quot;Persephone&quot; as &quot;Bringer of Destruction&quot;: [&quot;πέρσε&quot;](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=*perse&amp;la=greek#lexicon) + [&quot;φονή&quot;](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=fo%2Fnh&amp;la=greek#Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=fona/w-contents), although the second word, with an omega for the omicron, [&quot;φωνή&quot;](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=fwnh%2F&amp;la=greek&amp;can=fwnh%2F0&amp;prior=fwn-e/w) relates to sound, thus Persephone can also be understood as &quot;She who robs (people) of their voice&quot; (i.e. death) and by extension, life, as voice requires breath, and breath is literally spirit in *[psuke](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=yuxh&amp;la=greek#lexicon)*, *[pneuma](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pneuma&amp;la=greek#lexicon)*,   and the root of the Latin *[&quot;anima&quot;](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=anemos&amp;la=greek#lexicon)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Persephone is sometimes considered the mother of the [primal form of Dionysus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreus), and/or the nymph [Melinoe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melinoe), however, the sources are cloudy, originating from the &quot;mysteries&quot;, and can be considered corollary. Even so, the binary of infertile/fertile can be represented by possible status as mother.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These deities are understood to be [liminal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liminal_being), although the current Wikipedia entry on [liminal deities](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liminal_deity) is quite dated in it's scope, being concerned only with deities who literally preside over thresholds as opposed to deities who actually embody oppositional qualities.  Thresholds, of course, require binaries. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Loki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki) is a distinctly liminal figure:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Loki is sometimes [Asgardian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asgard) and also part [jötunn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6tunn).&#xD;&#xA;- Loki is both benefactor and nemesis. &#xD;&#xA;- Loki can become female&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Loki tricks the giant who builds the walls of Asgard, and becomes female to bear Sleipnir (*[Gylfaginning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki#Gylfaginning)*), but he also is responsible for the death of Baldur, and is the central agent of [Ragnarök](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar%C3%B6k) which is a transition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Loki is &quot;bright&quot; in the sense of cleverness, but also &quot;dark&quot; in the sense of spite.  (It's probably not random that his punishment involves venom, and it's also possible that his name partly derives from the [Indo-European root for light](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/luk-).)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;Those are my favorites, but embodiment of such binaries can be seen in:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Janus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janus)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Two faces. Represents past/future, as well as other transitions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Ganesha](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganesha)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Part animal, part human.  Remover or placer of obstacles (facilitating or obstructing transitions). Literally a guardian of thresholds in that, in some version, he stood guard by [his mother](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parvati)'s door and refused to allow [Shiva](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiva) entry.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The [Green Man](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Man)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both vegetable and human.  Intersection of the mind and nature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [John Barleycorn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Barleycorn)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dionysus variant.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The [Christ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both god and man.  Gateway to heaven.  The cross, or &quot;[crux](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=crux)&quot; is a literal representation of intersection. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These are just a few, famous examples, but the concept of [liminality](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liminality) is central to all such figures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9838" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2379" RevisionGUID="76887c19-deec-4d10-b5b9-b8d0a628ccc8" CreationDate="2017-02-20T03:31:07.383" UserId="2892" Text="It is interesting that in Chinese lore, a [red thread](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_string_of_fate) was said to connect lovers.  Note that the actual name is the &quot;Red String of Fate&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Chinese tradition does not have a direct analogue to the Moirai so far as I know, and there tends to be more emphasis on &quot;fortune&quot; as in bad/good, presided over by the god [Caishen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caishen).  However it is telling that one of the &quot;Four Great Folktales&quot; of China is the *[Weaver Girl and the Cowherd](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Weaver_Girl_and_the_Cowherd)*, which is a love story, and the Red Thread of Destiny is understood in a romantic context, and [Yue Lao](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yue_Lao) can also be understood as god of fate in this context.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Weaving and fate tend to be intermingled in the West as well, which is why the [Greek fates](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moirai) are female *(weaving was understood as a source of feminine power)*, and a human life was understood to be a string that [Atropos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atropos) would cut when their allotted length of time was up. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you astutely point out, [Eros](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eros), does seem to be able to influence destiny with his arrows.  He makes Psyche fall in love to punish her. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Hesiod, Eros, who is sometimes euphemistically referred to as &quot;both the oldest and the youngest of the gods&quot;, comes into existence *before* the Moirai.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But it becomes a philosophical question at this point: Was it Psyche's fate all along to be so punished? Is Eros altering destiny or merely acting as its agent?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of [Hymen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hymen_(god)), the Greek god of marriage, presence or absence at a wedding was understood to influence the outcome of the relationship.  But again, is Hymen influencing fate, or merely serving it?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9839" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2380" RevisionGUID="4a179a83-b44b-433b-b6da-0dab57cc3eed" CreationDate="2017-02-20T03:51:27.343" UserId="3467" Text="I believe there is a creature called the Al that is found in old gnostic texts that is described as one of the possible companions for Adam. It wears a hat made of bells that makes it invisible and is known to cause miscarriages and take the livers of living creatures. This all stems from its hatred of being rejected by Adam.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9840" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2379" RevisionGUID="11f7b2b9-09e0-469d-a71a-2260161f983f" CreationDate="2017-02-20T05:49:35.443" UserId="2892" Comment="Added the Aristotle, which is key" Text="It is interesting that in Chinese lore, a [red thread](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_string_of_fate) was said to connect lovers.  Note that the actual name is the &quot;Red String of Fate&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Chinese tradition does not have a direct analogue to the Moirai so far as I know, and there tends to be more emphasis on &quot;fortune&quot; as in bad/good, presided over by the god [Caishen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caishen).  However it is telling that one of the &quot;Four Great Folktales&quot; of China is the *[Weaver Girl and the Cowherd](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Weaver_Girl_and_the_Cowherd)*, which is a love story, and the Red Thread of Destiny is understood in a romantic context, and [Yue Lao](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yue_Lao) can also be understood as god of fate in this context.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Weaving and fate tend to be intermingled in the West as well, which is why the [Greek fates](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moirai) are female *(weaving was understood as a source of feminine power)*, and a human life was understood to be a string that [Atropos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atropos) would cut when their allotted length of time was up. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was said that [Hymen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hymen_(god)), the Greek god of marriage, could bless or curse a union with his presence or absence at the ceremony. But is Hymen influencing fate, or merely serving it?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you astutely point out, [Eros](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eros), does seem to be able to influence destiny with his arrows.  He makes Psyche fall in love to punish her. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Hesiod, Eros, who is sometimes referred to as &quot;both the oldest and the youngest of the gods&quot;, comes into existence *before* the Moirai.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aristotle, quoting Hesiod, notes the implication that Love (attraction) must be the prime force of creation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Hesiod says, “ First of all things was Chaos made, and then/Broad-bosomed Earth . . ./And Love, the foremost of immortal beings,” thus implying that there must be in the world some cause to move things and combine them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Hesiod... assumed Love or Desire as a first principle in things.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Aristot. Met. 1.984b](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0052%3Abook%3D1%3Asection%3D984b)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aristotle uses literally calls Love and Desire the origin *([arkein](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29rxh%2F&amp;la=greek&amp;can=a%29rxh%2F0))* of all things *([ouseen](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ou%29%3Dsin&amp;la=greek&amp;can=ou%29%3Dsin1&amp;prior=toi=s&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0051:book=1:section=984b&amp;i=2))*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It becomes a philosophical question at this point: Was it Psyche's fate all along to be so punished? Is Eros altering destiny or merely acting as its agent?  If Eros is the prime force behind all creation, is not fate a function of Eros?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9841" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2378" RevisionGUID="79c49fc8-7510-4475-9137-d2292fe1bf8c" CreationDate="2017-02-20T06:22:06.983" UserId="2892" Comment="added a note on Eros, and an image of the referenced image (most sites hosting it are selling fortune telling, lol)" Text="[Dionysus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus) is a great place to start—Baphomet is almost surely based, in part, on this figure.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Dionysus is sometimes depicted as the &quot;horned god&quot;, encompassing the human/animal binary.&#xD;&#xA; - Dionysus the &quot;Dying/Resurrected God&quot;, representing the life/death binary.&#xD;&#xA; - Dionysus is depicted with feminine attributes (long hair, &quot;eastern&quot; grooming which was considered feminized to the Greeks) suggesting the male/female binary. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding gender, it's notable that gender reversal were part of the [Dionysian Mysteries](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysian_Mysteries), appearing in such forms as transvestism and the female maenads taking on masculine attributes such as strength, ferocity, and freedom to roam.  [The Bacchae](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bacchae) of Euripides is a very important source work. *(At its core, the play is a commemoration of the dismemberment and his subsequent resurrection of the god, but even the Wikipedia summary provides a good sense of binaries dealt with in the play, primarily the tension between intellect and instinct, but also the dual nature of Dionysus himself.)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Persephone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persephone) is, in some sense, the female counterpart to Dionysus. She represents grain (body), where he represents wine (spirit).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Persephone is both Maiden and Crone&#xD;&#xA; - Persephone symbolizes both growing and dying (&quot;Summer&quot;/&quot;Winter&quot;) &#xD;&#xA; - She has two names, Kore (&quot;[Girl](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ko%2Frh&amp;la=greek&amp;can=ko%2Frh0#lexicon)&quot;) and Persephone (&quot;Destroyer&quot;)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Graves](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Graves) translates &quot;Persephone&quot; as &quot;Bringer of Destruction&quot;: [&quot;πέρσε&quot;](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=*perse&amp;la=greek#lexicon) + [&quot;φονή&quot;](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=fo%2Fnh&amp;la=greek#Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=fona/w-contents), although the second word, with an omega for the omicron, [&quot;φωνή&quot;](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=fwnh%2F&amp;la=greek&amp;can=fwnh%2F0&amp;prior=fwn-e/w) relates to sound, thus Persephone can also be understood as &quot;She who robs (people) of their voice&quot; (i.e. death) and by extension, life, as voice requires breath, and breath is literally spirit in *[psuke](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=yuxh&amp;la=greek#lexicon)*, *[pneuma](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pneuma&amp;la=greek#lexicon)*,   and the root of the Latin *[&quot;anima&quot;](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=anemos&amp;la=greek#lexicon)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Persephone is sometimes considered the mother of the [primal form of Dionysus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreus), and/or the nymph [Melinoe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melinoe), however, the sources are cloudy, originating from the &quot;mysteries&quot;, and can be considered corollary. Even so, the binary of infertile/fertile can be represented by possible status as mother.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Eros](http://www.theoi.com/Ouranios/Eros.html) is also certainly in this category, being thought of, alternately, as both the oldest and youngest of the gods. In the philosophical conception of Aristotle, [drawing on Hesiod](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0052%3Abook%3D1%3Asection%3D984b), Eros the principle (love, desire) is said to be quite specifically the &quot;[origin](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29rxh%2F&amp;la=greek&amp;can=a%29rxh%2F0)&quot; of &quot;[all things that exist](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ou%29%3Dsin&amp;la=greek&amp;can=ou%29%3Dsin1&amp;prior=toi=s&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0051:book=1:section=984b&amp;i=2)&quot;.  Thus Eros embodies a binary (oldest/youngest) and presides over the unification of opposites (generation through unification of the sexes).  Hesiod was drawing on ideas that would now be understood as [combinatorics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combinatorics#History).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These deities are understood to be [liminal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liminal_being), although the current Wikipedia entry on [liminal deities](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liminal_deity) is quite limited in scope, being concerned only with deities who *literally* preside over thresholds, as opposed to deities who actually embody oppositional qualities which *form* the thresholds they straddle. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Loki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki) is a distinctly liminal figure:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Loki is sometimes [Asgardian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asgard) and also part [jötunn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6tunn).&#xD;&#xA;- Loki is both benefactor and nemesis. &#xD;&#xA;- Loki can become female&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Loki tricks the giant who builds the walls of Asgard, and becomes female to bear Sleipnir (*[Gylfaginning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki#Gylfaginning)*), but he also is responsible for the death of Baldur, and is the central agent of [Ragnarök](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar%C3%B6k) which is a transition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Loki is &quot;bright&quot; in the sense of cleverness, but also &quot;dark&quot; in the sense of spite.  (It's probably not random that his punishment involves venom, and it's also possible that his name partly derives from the [Indo-European root for light](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/luk-).)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;Those are my favorites, but embodiment of such binaries can be seen in:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Janus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janus)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Two faces. Represents past/future, as well as other transitions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Ganesha](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganesha)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Part animal, part human.  Remover or placer of obstacles (facilitating or obstructing transitions). Literally a guardian of thresholds in that, in some version, he stood guard by [his mother](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parvati)'s door and refused to allow [Shiva](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiva) entry.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The [Green Man](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Man)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both vegetable and human.  Intersection of the mind and nature. Crowley's &quot;The Fool&quot; [See below] references the Green Man, who is very specifically *straddling* the body of the image, which may be interpreted as the phenomenal world, and also incorporates horns and a distinctly animalistic visage. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [John Barleycorn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Barleycorn)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dionysus variant.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The [Christ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both god and man.  Gateway to salvation.  The cross, or &quot;[crux](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=crux)&quot; is a literal representation of intersection. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These are just a few, famous examples, but the concept of [liminality](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liminality) is central to all such figures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/jQdsb.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9842" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="2376" RevisionGUID="ab8a434f-bef9-4c35-8bc2-d3917a208a0f" CreationDate="2017-02-20T10:28:15.390" UserId="3459" Comment="41" />
  <row Id="9844" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2379" RevisionGUID="111deeea-9fa7-4c92-b8ee-e8fd2da1d6c0" CreationDate="2017-02-20T21:47:27.540" UserId="2892" Comment="cleaned up some typos and added links to &quot;erota&quot; and &quot;epithumian&quot;. " Text="It is interesting that in Chinese lore, a [red thread](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_string_of_fate) was said to connect lovers.  Note that the actual name is the &quot;Red String of Fate&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Chinese tradition does not have a direct analogue to the Moirai so far as I know, and there tends to be more emphasis on &quot;fortune&quot; as in bad/good, presided over by the god [Caishen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caishen).  However it is telling that one of the &quot;Four Great Folktales&quot; of China is the *[Weaver Girl and the Cowherd](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Weaver_Girl_and_the_Cowherd)*, which is a love story, and the Red Thread of Destiny is understood in a romantic context, where [Yue Lao](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yue_Lao) serves the function of a god of fate.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Weaving and fate tends to be intermingled in the West as well, which is why the [Greek fates](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moirai) are female *(weaving was understood as a source of feminine power)*, and a human life was understood to be a string that [Atropos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atropos) would cut when a person's allotted length of time was up. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was said that [Hymen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hymen_(god)), the Greek god of marriage, could bless or curse a union with his presence or absence at the ceremony. But is Hymen influencing fate, or merely acting as fate's agent?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you astutely point out, [Eros](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eros), does seem to be able to influence destiny with his arrows.  He makes Psyche fall in love to punish her. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Hesiod, Eros, who is sometimes referred to as &quot;both the oldest and the youngest of the gods&quot;, comes into existence *before* the Moirai.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aristotle, quoting Hesiod, notes the implication that Love (attraction) must be the prime force of creation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Hesiod says, “ First of all things was Chaos made, and then/Broad-bosomed Earth . . ./And Love, the foremost of immortal beings,” thus implying that there must be in the world some cause to move things and combine them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Hesiod... assumed Love or Desire as a first principle in things.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Aristot. Met. 1.984b](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0052%3Abook%3D1%3Asection%3D984b)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aristotle uses literally calls love *([erota](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29%2Frws&amp;la=greek&amp;can=e%29%2Frws0))* and desire *([epithumian](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29piqu_m-i%2Fa&amp;la=greek&amp;can=e%29piqu_m-i%2Fa0))* the origin *([arkein](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29rxh%2F&amp;la=greek&amp;can=a%29rxh%2F0))* of all things *([ouseen](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ou%29%3Dsin&amp;la=greek&amp;can=ou%29%3Dsin1&amp;prior=toi=s&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0051:book=1:section=984b&amp;i=2))*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It becomes a philosophical question at this point: Was it Psyche's fate all along to be so punished? Is Eros altering destiny or merely acting as its agent?  If Eros is the prime force behind all creation, is not fate a function of Eros?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9845" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2381" RevisionGUID="93110c23-9f68-4198-bff9-662203bc824e" CreationDate="2017-02-21T01:13:51.133" UserId="967" Text="&gt;*Aeschylus, Eumenides 971 ff :*  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;[The Eumenides bless the Athenians with good fortune :] ‘I forbid deadly and untimely fate for men; **grant to lovely maidens life with a husband, you that have the rightful power; you, divine Moirai (Moirae, Fates)**, our sisters by one mother, divinities who distribute justly, who have a share in every home, and whose righteous visitations press heavily at every season, most honored everywhere among the gods!’&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;[Moirai][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They have the power to make women fall for men,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Aristophanes, Birds 1720 ff (trans. O'Neill) (Greek comedy C5th to 4th B.C.) :*  &#xD;&#xA;&quot;Twas in the midst of such [wedding] festivities that the Moirai (Moirae, Fates) formerly united Hera Olympia to the King [Zeus] who governs the gods from the summit of his inaccessible throne.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and arrange godly marriage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't remember anything about a link between those three concerning love. &#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Moirai.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9846" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2381" RevisionGUID="065e8723-ee18-48f4-aa2c-021f9296f38a" CreationDate="2017-02-21T01:41:10.337" UserId="967" Comment="added 311 characters in body" Text="&gt;*Aeschylus, Eumenides 971 ff :*  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;[The Eumenides bless the Athenians with good fortune :] ‘I forbid deadly and untimely fate for men; **grant to lovely maidens life with a husband, you that have the rightful power; you, divine Moirai (Moirae, Fates)**, our sisters by one mother, divinities who distribute justly, who have a share in every home, and whose righteous visitations press heavily at every season, most honored everywhere among the gods!’&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;[Moirai][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They have the power to make women fall for men,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Aristophanes, Birds 1720 ff (trans. O'Neill) (Greek comedy C5th to 4th B.C.) :*  &#xD;&#xA;&quot;Twas in the midst of such [wedding] festivities that the Moirai (Moirae, Fates) formerly united Hera Olympia to the King [Zeus] who governs the gods from the summit of his inaccessible throne.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and arrange godly marriage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As @DukeZhou says, Eros was one of the first forces of Love. And probably the strongest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But, according to Aeschylus, they have the power to give a maiden a husband. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What I view from this, is that Eros is more of the falling in love sorta deal, while the fates are about finding a spouse. Hymen is the wedding type of guy, rather an agent of fate. Hera... I honestly have no idea.&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Moirai.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9847" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2382" RevisionGUID="3346941b-124e-4943-9f58-7f6ad61f227c" CreationDate="2017-02-21T10:37:39.627" UserId="1503" Text="I somehow associated fairies with bells. Quick check on wiki shows that &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Bells also have an ambiguous role; while they protect against fairies,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the fairies riding on horseback — such as the fairy queen — often have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bells on their harness&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a prooflink on the passage: &quot;Briggs (1976) &quot;Bells&quot; p. 20.&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9848" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2383" RevisionGUID="088d21d9-a870-48ac-8a01-160bfba97618" CreationDate="2017-02-21T11:03:14.423" UserId="3471" Text="Because death was released into the world, all hope is denied." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9849" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2383" RevisionGUID="088d21d9-a870-48ac-8a01-160bfba97618" CreationDate="2017-02-21T11:03:14.423" UserId="3471" Text="Surely hope being left in Pandora's Box means, quite rightly, that there is no hope in the world?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9850" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2383" RevisionGUID="088d21d9-a870-48ac-8a01-160bfba97618" CreationDate="2017-02-21T11:03:14.423" UserId="3471" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9851" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2384" RevisionGUID="90ee4b61-afe3-400c-b339-e5484054be01" CreationDate="2017-02-21T19:03:15.830" UserId="2807" Text="Is there an equivalent in Norse mythology to the goddesses [Nike](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nike_(mythology)) of the Greeks or [Victoria](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_(mythology)) of the Romans?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any god or mythological being in Norse cult associated mainly with victory?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9852" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2384" RevisionGUID="90ee4b61-afe3-400c-b339-e5484054be01" CreationDate="2017-02-21T19:03:15.830" UserId="2807" Text="Is there any Norse mythological figure associated with victory?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9853" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2384" RevisionGUID="90ee4b61-afe3-400c-b339-e5484054be01" CreationDate="2017-02-21T19:03:15.830" UserId="2807" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9854" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2385" RevisionGUID="dee93fa9-efeb-490e-9095-89375567b82a" CreationDate="2017-02-21T19:04:22.837" UserId="3474" Text="I have read in a book (I forgot the name but it had to do with the 12 tasks Herakles had to do) and it said that in one task Herakles ran across Theseus, as stated in your question, and when asking Hades to get Cerburus, he asked could Hades free Theseus and Hades agreed. Theseus and Herakles then died a normal life." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9855" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2386" RevisionGUID="f4d80ee4-2179-495f-a0e2-ebe4e4fe12d8" CreationDate="2017-02-21T19:09:27.183" UserId="3474" Text="From sources I've read from (I don't remember exactly) it said that Helios first was the sun god but later faded away and then Apollo took the job. I think one reason was because one of his sons didn't drive well on the chariot and died because it destroyed many things." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9856" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2385" RevisionGUID="db4abf08-c1ce-4122-aa5c-e8fcb0d2fe7d" CreationDate="2017-02-21T19:11:27.683" UserId="2807" Comment="Fixed misspelling" Text="I have read in a book (I forgot the name but it had to do with the 12 tasks Herakles had to do) and it said that in one task Herakles ran across Theseus, as stated in your question, and when asking Hades to get Cerberus, he asked if Hades could free Theseus and Hades agreed. Theseus and Herakles then lived a normal life." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9857" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2385" RevisionGUID="db4abf08-c1ce-4122-aa5c-e8fcb0d2fe7d" CreationDate="2017-02-21T19:11:27.683" Comment="Proposed by 2807 approved by 3474 edit id of 423" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9860" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2389" RevisionGUID="fcbef342-018f-4a5b-8a91-54a5dad791e0" CreationDate="2017-02-21T20:15:01.447" UserId="2892" Text="Quite the opposite:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt; &quot;Zeus gathered all the useful things together in a jar and put a lid on it. He then left the jar in human hands. But man had no self-control and he wanted to know what was in that jar, so he pushed the lid aside, letting those things go back to the abode of the gods. So all the good things flew away, soaring high above the earth, and Elpis (Hope) was the only thing left. When the lid was put back on the jar, Elpis (Hope) was kept inside. **That is why Elpis (Hope) alone is still found among the people, promising that she will bestow on each of us the good things that have gone away.**&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Aesop, Fables 526 (from Babrius 58) (trans. Gibbs) (Greek fable C6th B.C.)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Your take may also be valid interpretation in that Aesop does make the point that Hope can now only promise good things that are gone from this world.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Redemption after death isn't really firmly entrenched until Christianity. (Pagan traditions tend to be pre-occupied with cycles of generation as opposed to Abrahamic religions which are focused on redemption.) In most pagan religions, there is only an underworld to which people go when they die, generally not nice places.  The [Elysian Fields](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elysium) are an early take on redemption after death, but entry is restricted to all but a very few, unquestionably out of reach of the average person, and even most heroes.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;...according to Aesop, but Phil said: *&quot;Because Hope was stuck in the lid of the box, it was bloody useless, and false hope was the only hope humans had, because they are all going to die and dwell in Hades forever, and all the good things false hope promises are gone from the world.&quot;*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**However, I believe Aesop was presenting hope as a kind of balm.  Yes, nearly all of us are going to hell, but the illusion of hope is the only thing that makes life bearable.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Of asphodel, that greeny flower, like a buttercup upon its branching stem- save that it’s green and wooden- I come, my sweet, to sing to you. We lived long together a life filled, if you will, with flowers.  So that I was cheered when I came first to know that there were flowers also in hell.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-William Carlos Williams&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9862" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="2383" RevisionGUID="62829bdc-8832-4e93-9929-4fe8cb7d13ef" CreationDate="2017-02-21T23:42:16.477" UserId="-1" Comment="101" Text="{&quot;OriginalQuestionIds&quot;:[41],&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:2774,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Gibet&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:29,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;nikaltipar&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:1241,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ken Graham&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:967,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;bleh&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="9864" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2390" RevisionGUID="42d4e961-4927-43fd-ae87-557c3dc6f969" CreationDate="2017-02-22T11:42:34.013" UserId="666" Text="**No, none that is exclusively associated with victory.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The closest we get is probably Odin, who is said to be able to give victory in war. Note however, the [*Sigrdrífumál*][1], with accompanying prose introductions, in which it is told that Odin promised victory to the king Hjalmgunnar, but the valkyrie &quot;Sigrdrífa&quot; ('driver to victory'; she is actually Brynhilde) defeated him instead, so Odin's power is only worked through intermediaries. There is a part of [Njal's saga][2] in which a group of women weave witha gruesome set of tools: human skulls as loom-weigths, innards as the warp, etc, and sing of how they are valkyries and &quot;weave victory&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If there would have been a norse personificiation of victory, the name would likely be *Sigr*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigrdr%C3%ADfum%C3%A1l&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nj%C3%A1ls_saga" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9865" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2391" RevisionGUID="41bf65f1-5478-4703-9c7f-22072960049c" CreationDate="2017-02-22T14:10:18.163" UserId="3478" Text="yes Apollo is the same in both Greek and roman mythology because he is the god of poetry light and archary&#xD;&#xA;  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9866" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2372" RevisionGUID="4300f1ae-1d4d-4e20-a68c-dc73d4003927" CreationDate="2017-02-23T01:04:44.190" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved  spelling and grammar." Text="Many mythologies have deities whom either personify the earth or sky (e.g. Gaia and Uranus). However, are there any deities that represent other realms, like how Tartarus is the personification of Tartarus? Also, please take note that by &quot;realms&quot;, I mean places that are inhabited (e.g. Asgard of Norse mythology, Aaru of Egyptian mythology) and not places such as the sun or moon." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9867" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2372" RevisionGUID="4300f1ae-1d4d-4e20-a68c-dc73d4003927" CreationDate="2017-02-23T01:04:44.190" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved  spelling and grammar." Text="Are there any deities that personify realms other than the earth or sky?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9869" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2392" RevisionGUID="05b5736a-4e5a-4358-9cb0-590e0c4230d5" CreationDate="2017-02-23T19:58:03.757" UserId="292" Text="The Roman story was that they adopted the god Apollo from the Greeks after a plague in the 430s BCE. According to Wikipedia:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;On the occasion of a pestilence in the 430s BCE, Apollo's first temple at Rome&#xD;&#xA;&gt;was established in the Flaminian fields, replacing an older cult site there known&#xD;&#xA;&gt;as the &quot;Apollinare&quot;. During the Second Punic War in 212 BCE, the Ludi Apollinares&#xD;&#xA;&gt;(&quot;Apollonian Games&quot;) were instituted in his honor, on the instructions of a&#xD;&#xA;&gt;prophecy attributed to one Marcius. In the time of Augustus, who considered&#xD;&#xA;&gt;himself under the special protection of Apollo and was even said to be his son,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;his worship developed and he became one of the chief gods of Rome.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;The Roman Emperor Augustus had a special devotion to Apollo as well, considering him a patron god. They seem to have seen Apollo as essentially the same god as the Greek version: oracular, artisitic, athletic. However, he took on a more imperial role during Augustus' time." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9870" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1196" RevisionGUID="c6a8cb0b-87df-4b2f-a803-1ee0a3f04591" CreationDate="2017-02-24T12:00:23.290" UserId="2807" Comment="Changed &quot;stigroi&quot; for &quot;strigoi&quot;, added some format and links." Text="In Romanian language you will come across the term [*Moroi*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moroi) who translates roughly as &quot;dead nightmare&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another such term is [*Strigoi*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strigoi).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These terms are used by many modern authors who want to present a *vampire-like-creature* as something: undead, bloodthirsty, evil (so no *Twillight* for you).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Example of these books are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [*Bloodlines*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodlines_(Mead_novel)), by Richelle Mead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [*The Strain*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Strain), by  Guillermo del Toro and Chuck Hogan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In all of these books, the *Moroi* term is used to describe what the reader perceives as a &quot;vampire&quot; creature." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9871" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1196" RevisionGUID="c6a8cb0b-87df-4b2f-a803-1ee0a3f04591" CreationDate="2017-02-24T12:00:23.290" Comment="Proposed by 2807 approved by 2774, 965 edit id of 424" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9872" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2393" RevisionGUID="31341353-e95a-40cc-a15b-8868913c9354" CreationDate="2017-02-25T10:52:52.723" UserId="3486" Text="But what about Mist (Caligine) mentioned by Hyginas? While this may or may not be a deity/being, it certainly seems somewhat personified and Hyginas claimed that chaos came out of Mist... So it would seem that the earliest theorized entity/state of existence was some kind of Mist." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9873" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2389" RevisionGUID="a0c6730c-a895-4252-8d73-67c7b58de975" CreationDate="2017-02-25T22:22:09.187" UserId="2892" Comment="added 54 characters in body" Text="Quite the opposite:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt; &quot;Zeus gathered all the useful things together in a jar and put a lid on it. He then left the jar in human hands. But man had no self-control and he wanted to know what was in that jar, so he pushed the lid aside, letting those things go back to the abode of the gods. So all the good things flew away, soaring high above the earth, and Elpis (Hope) was the only thing left. When the lid was put back on the jar, Elpis (Hope) was kept inside. **That is why Elpis (Hope) alone is still found among the people, promising that she will bestow on each of us the good things that have gone away.**&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Aesop, Fables 526 (from Babrius 58) (trans. Gibbs) (Greek fable C6th B.C.)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Your take may also be valid interpretation in that Aesop does make the point that Hope can now only promise good things that are gone from this world.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Redemption after death isn't really firmly entrenched until Christianity. (Pagan traditions tend to be pre-occupied with cycles of generation as opposed to Abrahamic religions which are focused on redemption.) In most pagan religions, there is only an underworld to which people go when they die, generally not nice places.  The [Elysian Fields](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elysium) are an early take on redemption after death, but entry is restricted to all but a very few, unquestionably out of reach of the average person, and even most heroes.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;...according to Aesop, but Phil said: *&quot;Because Hope was stuck in the lid of the box, it was bloody useless, and false hope was the only hope humans had, because they are all going to die and dwell in Hades forever, and all the good things false hope promises are gone from the world.&quot;*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**However, I believe Aesop was presenting hope as a kind of balm.  Yes, nearly all of us are going to hell, but the illusion of hope is the only thing that makes life bearable.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Of asphodel, that greeny flower, like a buttercup upon its branching stem- save that it’s green and wooden- I come, my sweet, to sing to you. We lived long together a life filled, if you will, with flowers.  So that I was cheered when I came first to know that there were flowers also in hell.&quot;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;-William Carlos Williams&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9874" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2258" RevisionGUID="65f44f0e-dc4d-44cb-a3ff-34d8298a83d6" CreationDate="2017-02-25T23:10:00.203" UserId="2892" Comment="refined the link to nosoi to remove unrelated words" Text="You will find Theoi to be quite useful as Pandora is a covered topic and it aggregates a variety of the Pandora myth in the Classical cannon: [Pandora](http://www.theoi.com/Heroine/Pandora.html).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's important to note that there is not a single &quot;Pandora&quot; story, but a series of stories and variations, beginning with Hesiod and Homer in about the 8th Century BCE up to about the 5th Century CE.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - What the specific &quot;evils&quot; are depends to some extent on the source, and even when specified, it is still pretty general.  Hesiod, in [Works and Days](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_and_Days), specifically mentions plague and disease, but also suggests that before the event, mankind was not subject to vices (one meaning of *[kakoi](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ka%2Fkh&amp;la=greek&amp;can=ka%2Fkh0#lexicon)* which is a general term for bad) or hard labor *([ponoi](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=po%2Fnoio&amp;la=greek&amp;can=po%2Fnoio0&amp;prior=xalepoi=o&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0131:card=83&amp;i=1)*—in Ancient Greek this word for toil is also used to mean suffering and distress) or *[nosoi](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=no%2Fsos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=no%2Fsos0)* (which means illnesses). However Hesiod describes it differently in his [Theogony](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theogony) where he rather [misogynistically](http://www.dictionary.com/browse/misogynistic) suggests women themselves to be the source of many evils, a parallel to interpretations of [Eve](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eve) as the source of the fall of mankind in the Old Testament.  *[Hesiod's outlook was no doubt influenced by his own unhappy experiences.]* &#xD;&#xA; - Aesop, in contrast, presents a story in which the vessel is filled with &quot;all good things&quot; (which is one meaning of Pandora's name, in the sense that &quot;gifts&quot; are seen as good things.) [Homer, in the Iliad, Book 24](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D24%3Acard%3D507), which is a similar account to Aesop's, uses *[doron](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=dw%3Dron&amp;la=greek&amp;can=dw%3Dron0)* which is the specific part of Pandora's name meaning &quot;gifts&quot;, but Aesop, for the most part, as seen here in the [Chambry version of one of his stories](http://mythfolklore.net/aesopica/chambry/1.htm) uses *[agatha](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29gaqo%2Fn&amp;la=greek&amp;can=a%29gaqo%2Fn1&amp;prior=polukoirani/h)* which simply means &quot;good&quot;.  Interestingly, the [Babrius version of the other Aesop story](http://mythfolklore.net/aesopica/babrius/58.htm) initially uses what could be loosely anglicized as *[krhesta](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=xrhsto%2Fs&amp;la=greek&amp;can=xrhsto%2Fs0&amp;prior=*xrhstos#lexicon)* (χρηστὰ) which means &quot;useful&quot; and can, in some cases, carry a moral dimension. However the only good thing actually specified is [Elpis](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29lp-i%2Fs&amp;la=greek&amp;can=e%29lp-i%2Fs0) which means hope.  &#xD;&#xA; - [Theognis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theognis_of_Megara) is more specific in regard to the good things.  The poet specifically mentions *[Pistis](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=*pi%2Fstis&amp;la=greek&amp;can=*pi%2Fstis0&amp;prior=me\n&amp;d=Perseus:text:2008.01.0477:volume=1:text=11:section=2&amp;i=1)* (Trust), [*sophrosyne*](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=swfrosu%2Fnh&amp;la=greek&amp;can=swfrosu%2Fnh0) (moderation), and the *[Kharites](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=*xa%2Frites&amp;la=greek&amp;can=*xa%2Frites0&amp;prior=*xa/rissin#lexicon)* (the Graces).  Although Pandora's name never comes up in this fragment, these boons are mentioned in relation to *Elpis* so it is clearly a commentary on the Pandora story. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's worth considering the etymology of the names of the major players: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pandora is variously interpreted but is formed by the prefix *pan* meaning &quot;all&quot; and *doron* for gifts.  Thus something like &quot;All Giving&quot; is quite acceptable as an alternative to the idea of her name as &quot;All Gifts&quot;.  An implication of All Giving is that this includes the bad as well as the good, a theme intimately tied with the [Prometheus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus) cycle.  Specifically, Prometheus brings fire to mankind.  Fire warms but can also burn.  This may be taken as a metaphor for the dual benefits and dangers of technology, but at a deeper level may be about the binary nature of things.  There is an idea that without misfortune there is no motivation for hope. (i.e. how does one define good without the opposite of good to contrast it with?) Hesiod makes Prometheus' gift of fire to mankind the incitement for Zeus' subsequent punishment of mankind through Pandora. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Epimetheus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epimetheus_(mythology)) is likewise a combination of an ancient Greek prefix meaning &quot;before&quot; and a word for thought.  Thus his name is understood as &quot;Hindsight&quot; in contrast to his wise brother Prometheus (&quot;forethought&quot;).  Epimetheus, who is an important agent in the Pandora cycle, represents the folly of mankind, as in &quot;hindsight is 20/20&quot; or &quot;whoops!&quot;--his wiser brother strongly cautions him against accepting any gifts from Zeus. Epimetheus' involvement can be related to Adam in the Old Testament who is only able to realize his mistake *after* he eats the fruit and achieves knowledge. This is, again, a dual blessing and curse, carrying the irony that it is only with consciousness, the knowledge of good and evil, that one is able to be aware of the experience of suffering.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, the use of &quot;box&quot; is a modern translation.  Hesiod, where the story originates, in his [Works and Days](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0132%3Acard%3D83) uses the word *[pithou](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pi%2Fqos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=pi%2Fqos0#lexicon)* [a form of the noun πίθος, which refers to a large jar, typically for wine but also for oil, which is a lubricant and suggest a metaphoric component to the idea of the famous &quot;box&quot;. This is consistent with Hesiod's idea of women as a source of evil in the Theogony, **where it is notable there is *no mention* of a &quot;box&quot; or other vessel**, save Pandora herself, who is there noted to be the mother of the race of woman. The idea of woman as mere vessel is later explicated in [Apollo's arguments](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0006%3Acard%3D640) at Orestes' trial in [The Eumenides](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oresteia#The_Eumenides) (lines 657-666).]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*I'd highly recommend taking a look at [Pandora's Box: The Changing Aspects of a Mythical Symbol](http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/52753.Pandora_s_Box) by Dora and Erwin Panofsky for an excellent exploration of both the Pandora myth, and myths about the Pandora myth.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9875" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2394" RevisionGUID="afd3147c-5e93-42b0-96e1-25b03433b342" CreationDate="2017-02-25T23:12:13.270" UserId="2892" Text="[This excellent question](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/2383/2892) got me thinking about how to understand the perceived ambiguity of the status of &quot;Hope&quot; in the [Works and Days version of the Pandora story](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0132%3Acard%3D83).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there some deeper meaning to the jar lid specifically, and hope's status of remaining under it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9876" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2394" RevisionGUID="afd3147c-5e93-42b0-96e1-25b03433b342" CreationDate="2017-02-25T23:12:13.270" UserId="2892" Text="Can the unbreakable lid specifically in the Work and Days version of Pandora be taken as a metaphor?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9877" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2394" RevisionGUID="afd3147c-5e93-42b0-96e1-25b03433b342" CreationDate="2017-02-25T23:12:13.270" UserId="2892" Text="|greek|pandora|metaphors|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9878" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2395" RevisionGUID="ee0fdc2e-b602-4e33-8fda-c9525d566450" CreationDate="2017-02-25T23:12:29.150" UserId="2892" Text="Absolutely. Hesiod is quite deep, and as Aristotle's use of Hesiod's Eros demonstrates, profound meaning may be found hidden in the work.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Hesiod says, “ First of all things was Chaos made, and then/Broad-bosomed Earth . . ./And Love, the foremost of immortal beings,” thus implying that there must be in the world some cause to move things and combine them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Hesiod... assumed Love or Desire as a first principle in things.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Source: [Aristot. Met. 1.984b](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0052%3Abook%3D1%3Asection%3D984b) | A brief commentary may be found [here.](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2379/2892)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Hesiod has two accounts of the Pandora story, one which mentions a jar (i.e. box) and one that has no mention of any vessel save Pandora herself.  See [&quot;Good and Evil in the Pandora Story&quot;](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2258/2892)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The lid of the jar is noted by Hesiod to be an &quot;[unbreakable](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29%2Frrhktos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=a%29%2Frrhktos0)&quot; &quot;[home](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=do%2Fmos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=do%2Fmos0#Perseus:text:1999.04.0058:entry=do/mos-contents)&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The verb [ἔμιμνε](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29%2Fmimne&amp;la=greek#lexicon), which is used to connote the status of Hope under the lid, is and [imperfect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_verbs#Imperfect_tense) verb. Imperfect verbs are generally regarded as &quot;open ended&quot; as in continual, which connotes a sense of eternality in the Hesiod passage.  *[Compare to the [aorist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_verbs#Aorist_tense) or [pluperfect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_verbs#Pluperfect_tense) which connote completed actions.]* The choice of imperfect, in and of itself, is hopeful.  &quot;Remained&quot;, as it is often translated, might be more properly &quot;has remained&quot; or even &quot;remains&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The pithos (jar) can be taken as a methphor for the body, made from similar material as Pandora herself (literally &quot;[earth](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=gai%3Dan&amp;la=greek&amp;can=gai%3Dan0&amp;prior=ta/xista&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0131:card=59&amp;i=1)&quot; and &quot;[water](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=u%28%2Fdei&amp;la=greek&amp;can=u%28%2Fdei0&amp;prior=gai=an&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0131:card=59&amp;i=1)&quot; in Hesiod, but generally translated as clay.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The type of jar Hesiod uses, [pithos](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pi%2Fqos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=pi%2Fqos0#lexicon), that Hesiod uses, are clay, and yet Hesiod says this particular vessel, at least the lid, is unbreakable.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Continuing with the body metaphor, the &quot;lid&quot; can be taken to mean the head.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is further supported in that the evils Hesiod describes, [toil](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=po%2Fnoio&amp;la=greek&amp;can=po%2Fnoio0&amp;prior=xalepoi=o&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0131:card=83&amp;i=1), [illnesss](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=no%2Fsos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=no%2Fsos0), and even [vices](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ka%2Fkh&amp;la=greek&amp;can=ka%2Fkh0#lexicon), can be said to be afflictions of the body.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hope, by contrast, relates to the mind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The unbreakable status of the lid can be taken as a metaphor for the eternal component of humans, which is often called the soul.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This the evils of the Pandora's box may destroy the body and bring death, but they cannot destroy the human spirit.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9879" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2395" RevisionGUID="643b2ec8-cb91-44f6-a1d2-5bd17486844d" CreationDate="2017-02-26T01:10:06.733" UserId="2892" Comment="edited body" Text="Absolutely. Hesiod is quite deep, and as Aristotle's use of Hesiod's Eros demonstrates, profound meaning may be found hidden in the work.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Hesiod says, “ First of all things was Chaos made, and then/Broad-bosomed Earth . . ./And Love, the foremost of immortal beings,” thus implying that there must be in the world some cause to move things and combine them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Hesiod... assumed Love or Desire as a first principle in things.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Source: [Aristot. Met. 1.984b](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0052%3Abook%3D1%3Asection%3D984b) | A brief commentary may be found [here.](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2379/2892)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Hesiod has two accounts of the Pandora story, one which mentions a jar (i.e. box) and one that has no mention of any vessel save Pandora herself.  See [&quot;Good and Evil in the Pandora Story&quot;](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2258/2892)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The lid of the jar is noted by Hesiod to be an &quot;[unbreakable](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29%2Frrhktos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=a%29%2Frrhktos0)&quot; &quot;[home](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=do%2Fmos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=do%2Fmos0#Perseus:text:1999.04.0058:entry=do/mos-contents)&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The verb [ἔμιμνε](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29%2Fmimne&amp;la=greek#lexicon), which is used to connote the status of Hope under the lid, is and [imperfect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_verbs#Imperfect_tense) verb. Imperfect verbs are generally regarded as &quot;open ended&quot; as in continual, which connotes a sense of eternality in the Hesiod passage.  *[Compare to the [aorist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_verbs#Aorist_tense) or [pluperfect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_verbs#Pluperfect_tense) which connote completed actions.]* The choice of imperfect, in and of itself, is hopeful.  &quot;Remained&quot;, as it is often translated, might be more properly &quot;has remained&quot; or even &quot;remains&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [pithou](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pi%2Fqos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=pi%2Fqos0#lexicon) (jar) can be taken as a methphor for the body, made from similar material as Pandora herself (literally &quot;[earth](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=gai%3Dan&amp;la=greek&amp;can=gai%3Dan0&amp;prior=ta/xista&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0131:card=59&amp;i=1)&quot; and &quot;[water](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=u%28%2Fdei&amp;la=greek&amp;can=u%28%2Fdei0&amp;prior=gai=an&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0131:card=59&amp;i=1)&quot; in Hesiod, but generally translated as clay.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The pithou of jar Hesiod references are made from clay, and yet Hesiod says this particular vessel, at least the lid, is unbreakable.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Continuing with the body metaphor, the &quot;lid&quot; can be taken to mean the head.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is further supported in that the evils Hesiod describes, [toil](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=po%2Fnoio&amp;la=greek&amp;can=po%2Fnoio0&amp;prior=xalepoi=o&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0131:card=83&amp;i=1), [illnesss](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=no%2Fsos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=no%2Fsos0), and even [vices](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ka%2Fkh&amp;la=greek&amp;can=ka%2Fkh0#lexicon), can be said to be afflictions of the body.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hope, by contrast, relates to the mind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The unbreakable status of the lid can be taken as a metaphor for the eternal component of humans, which is often called the soul.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus the evils of the Pandora's box may destroy the body and bring death, but they cannot destroy the human spirit.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9880" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2396" RevisionGUID="b28af754-534e-4ccb-8f09-abcca098381d" CreationDate="2017-02-26T16:34:34.883" UserId="2807" Text="In ancient Greek tradition, what riddles had the Sphinx in her repertoire, besides the famous:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Which creature goes on four feet in the morning, two feet at noon, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; three feet in the evening?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphinx#The_Riddle_of_the_Sphinx) also mentions this one:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There are two sisters: one gives birth to the other and she, in turn,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gives birth to the first. Who are the two sisters?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of course, with one &quot;killer&quot; riddle, the Sphinx would have had enough, but quoting Wikipedia again (emphasis mine):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Michael Maier in his book, the Atalanta Fugiens (1617) writes the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; following remark about the Sphinx's riddle:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Sphinx is indeed reported to have had many Riddles**, but this offered&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to Oedipus was the chief, &quot;What is that which in the morning goeth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; upon four feet; upon two feet in the afternoon; and in the Evening&#xD;&#xA;&gt; upon three?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9881" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2396" RevisionGUID="b28af754-534e-4ccb-8f09-abcca098381d" CreationDate="2017-02-26T16:34:34.883" UserId="2807" Text="The Sphinx's repertoire" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9882" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2396" RevisionGUID="b28af754-534e-4ccb-8f09-abcca098381d" CreationDate="2017-02-26T16:34:34.883" UserId="2807" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9883" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2396" RevisionGUID="0f0f6c33-7502-4845-a4c1-2ef1a0d5ec73" CreationDate="2017-02-26T18:30:36.437" UserId="2807" Comment="added 113 characters in body" Text="In ancient Greek tradition, what riddles did have the Sphinx in her &quot;repertoire&quot;, besides the famous:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Which creature goes on four feet in the morning, two feet at noon, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; three feet in the evening?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphinx#The_Riddle_of_the_Sphinx) also mentions this one:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There are two sisters: one gives birth to the other and she, in turn,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gives birth to the first. Who are the two sisters?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of course, with one &quot;killer&quot; riddle, the Sphinx would have had enough but, quoting Wikipedia again (emphasis mine):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Michael Maier in his book, the Atalanta Fugiens (1617) writes the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; following remark about the Sphinx's riddle:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Sphinx is indeed reported to have had many Riddles**, but this offered&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to Oedipus was the chief, &quot;What is that which in the morning goeth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; upon four feet; upon two feet in the afternoon; and in the Evening&#xD;&#xA;&gt; upon three?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm curious if tradition or ancient authors assign her any other riddles besides those two quoted above." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9884" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2397" RevisionGUID="7de2010b-dad4-492d-b85d-56e0b1e56c67" CreationDate="2017-02-26T23:06:31.590" UserId="398" Text="Ps.-Apollodorus implies that there is only one riddle, which she learned from the Muses. From [Theoi](http://www.theoi.com/Ther/Sphinx.html):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 3. 52 - 55 (trans. Aldrich) (Greek mythographer C2nd A.D.) :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;While he [Kreon (Creon)] was king, quite a scourge held Thebes in suppression, for Hera sent upon them the Sphinx, whose parents were Ekhidna (Echidna) and Typhon. She had a woman's face, the breast, feet, and tail of a lion, and bird wings. She had learned a riddle form the Mousai (Muses), and now sat on Mount Phikion (Phicium) where she kept challenging the Thebans with it. The riddle was: what is it that has one voice, and is four-footed and two-footed and three-footed?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Check the link for more sources, too. Only Statius has &quot;riddles&quot; instead of &quot;riddle,&quot; but as Oedipus only solved one, it's probably a poetic plural intended (i.e. plural in form to fit the meter of the poem, but singular in meaning)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9885" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2398" RevisionGUID="89c8c968-753b-4525-b61b-294e0baee60b" CreationDate="2017-02-27T06:28:12.607" UserId="1619" Text="Fairly simple question, but a broad one: Did the [Sami people][1] of northern Scandinavia have any impact on Norse mythology? If so, how?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_people" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9886" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2398" RevisionGUID="89c8c968-753b-4525-b61b-294e0baee60b" CreationDate="2017-02-27T06:28:12.607" UserId="1619" Text="Did the Sami affect Norse mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9887" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2398" RevisionGUID="89c8c968-753b-4525-b61b-294e0baee60b" CreationDate="2017-02-27T06:28:12.607" UserId="1619" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9888" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2396" RevisionGUID="4d2db6a7-d4e2-415e-b192-da7c1b3cd39c" CreationDate="2017-02-27T09:32:09.623" UserId="2807" Comment="edited title" Text="The repertoire of the Sphinx" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9889" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2399" RevisionGUID="660b8313-0f99-46a9-928a-cbbb51550379" CreationDate="2017-02-27T18:37:07.427" UserId="666" Text="**Yes**, both as figures in historical and semi-legendary stories, and possibly through borrowings of mythological themes and ideas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;History and semi-legendary material&#xD;&#xA;-----------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First, let's note the actual historical background, attested in Icelandic sagas: it seems that the Norwegian had some kind of traditional right to gather tribute from the Sami, usually through some loyal man of his. This is described in e.g. *Egil's Saga*. This tribute seems to have been very substantial and important to the Norwegian kings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Somewhat less historical is the traditional role assigned to individual Sami in Norse sagas: as sorcerers and wizards. The Sami seems to have been held to be a people with strong and fearsome magicians, and some of the semi-legendary material is about how foolish it is to cross them. They are generally not hostile, but, if provoked, they will retaliate. They can also be dangerous for other reasons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story in *Ynglingasaga* of [Vanlandi][1] is a good example: the Swedish king Vanlandi visited the Sami, and agreed with their chieftain Snow that he would return to marry Snow's daughter Drift within three years. When *ten* years had passed and he had not returned, Drift went to a magician to cast a spell on Vanlandi: either he would return to Sami, or he would die. Vanlandi was seized with an urge to go back to Sápmi, but his friends persuaded him to stay at Uppsala. He soon withered and died. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Stories as this can be interpreted as small-scale reflections of the larger mythology, with the Norse serving as analogues of the gods and the Sami as Jotuns. See also the story of Snøfrid and Harald Fairhair in *Heimskringla*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mythological material&#xD;&#xA;---------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a slightly less straightforward topic, as there much more room for interpretation, but it is certain that Norse and Sami mythologies shares some features. Whether this is due to borrowing either way or separate developments from a common ancestor is impossible to say for sure, but the traditional argument seems to be to associate anything that is faintly shamanistic in the mythological to the Sami, and the rest is considered Norse (or perhaps, &quot;Germanic&quot;). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In particular, [Seidr][2] is thought to be a Sami practice borrowed by the Norse. There is a hint of this in *Lokasenna*, where Loki accuses Odin of &quot;drumming like the [Völvas][3]&quot;, and that this was unmanly; Sami [Noaidi][4] would go into a trance through drumming a special drum (c.f. also the story about the Völva in *The Saga of Eric the Red*).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the other direction, the Sami are thought to have borrowed the gods Thor and Frey in the form of [Horagalles][5] and [Waralden Olmai][6].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The above is mainly based on Gro Steinsland, *Fornnordisk religion*, except for some examples from the sagas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanlandi&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sei%C3%B0r&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lva&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noaidi&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horagalles&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waralden_Olmai" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9892" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2400" RevisionGUID="aa0d95b1-70b8-4b4d-8eca-eb3468c50912" CreationDate="2017-02-28T09:06:18.243" UserId="57" Text="According to Wikipedia, the Sami thunder god Horagalles was depicted with a nail or spike on the head: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Idols of Horagalles are made of wood and have a nail or spike and a piece of flint in the head. He has a hammer called Wetschera, Aijeke Wetschera, or Ajeke veċċera, &quot;grandfather's hammer.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Horagalles. (2016, October 3). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 09:02, February 28, 2017, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Horagalles&amp;oldid=742335950&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is that? What is the story of this unique feature?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9893" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2400" RevisionGUID="aa0d95b1-70b8-4b4d-8eca-eb3468c50912" CreationDate="2017-02-28T09:06:18.243" UserId="57" Text="Why does Horagalles have a nail on his head?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9894" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2400" RevisionGUID="aa0d95b1-70b8-4b4d-8eca-eb3468c50912" CreationDate="2017-02-28T09:06:18.243" UserId="57" Text="|sami|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9895" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2398" RevisionGUID="a37f34f2-5b88-4918-9b80-4513c970cfce" CreationDate="2017-02-28T09:06:33.663" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|comparative|sami|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9900" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="1278" RevisionGUID="f5c16299-a8cd-4288-bec7-b4d1ed23939d" CreationDate="2017-02-28T09:52:31.663" UserId="57" Comment="42" />
  <row Id="9902" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="2376" RevisionGUID="02193f6b-1e01-487a-ab7c-366963cbd28f" CreationDate="2017-02-28T12:12:13.230" UserId="-1" Comment="41" />
  <row Id="9903" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2401" RevisionGUID="0f210ef3-1447-44f1-a2de-72adfcb5744f" CreationDate="2017-02-28T15:24:37.117" UserId="3495" Text="I have a passing familiarity with some of the stories from Irish myth, at least in their translated form. One thing that has always puzzled me about these tales is the presumption among scholars that the characters represent gods. Yet the stories themselves almost exclusively talk about these characters as though they were heroic mortals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is stated explicitly in [Wikipedia][1], rather more succinctly than I can manage but without references:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Texts such as Lebor Gabála Érenn and Cath Maige Tuireadh present them&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as kings and heroes of the distant past, complete with death-tales.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; However, there is considerable evidence, both in the texts and from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the wider Celtic world, that they were once considered deities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While we may suspect a few characters, such as Medb or Cú Roí, of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; once being deities, and Cú Chulainn in particular displays superhuman&#xD;&#xA;&gt; prowess, the characters are mortal and associated with a specific time&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and place&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since these stories were being recorded by Christian monks, it is certainly plausible that they changed the representation of the characters into historical people rather than gods so as not to affront their religion. But what actual evidence is there to suggest these characters were once iron age deities?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9904" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2401" RevisionGUID="0f210ef3-1447-44f1-a2de-72adfcb5744f" CreationDate="2017-02-28T15:24:37.117" UserId="3495" Text="Why is it believed that characters from the Irish myth cycles were once gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9905" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2401" RevisionGUID="0f210ef3-1447-44f1-a2de-72adfcb5744f" CreationDate="2017-02-28T15:24:37.117" UserId="3495" Text="|irish|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9908" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="832" RevisionGUID="d1b59aaa-1403-4bc4-b169-d349d23495eb" CreationDate="2017-03-01T01:36:00.553" UserId="967" Comment="edited body" Text="The strongest candidate for a god of writing would be [Hermes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes), the god of - amongst other things - language: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Also the Guide, the Slayer of Argus, contrived within her lies and crafty words and a deceitful nature at the will of loud thundering Zeus, and the Herald of the gods put speech in her. And he called this woman Pandora, because all they who dwelt on Olympus gave each a gift, a plague to men who eat bread.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hesiod, Works and Days, lines 75-80](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0020.tlg002.perseus-eng1:59-82)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Plato elaborates on Hermes' association with language, in Cratylus: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Hermogenes**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; I will do so, but first one more god. I want to ask you about Hermes, since Cratylus says I am not Hermogenes (son of Hermes). Let us investigate the name of Hermes, to find out whether there is anything in what he says.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Socrates**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Well then, this name “Hermes” seems to me to have to do with speech; he is an interpreter (ἡρμηνεύς) and a messenger, is wily and deceptive in speech, and is oratorical. All this activity is concerned with the power of speech. Now, as I said before, εἴρειν denotes the use of speech; moreover, Homer often uses the word ἐμήσατο, which means “contrive.” From these two words, then, the lawgiver imposes upon us the name of this god who contrived speech and the use of speech—εἴρειν means “speak” and tells us: “Ye human beings, he who contrived speech (εἴρειν ἐμήσατο) ought to be called Eiremes by you.” We, however, have beautified the name, as we imagine, and call him Hermes. Iris also seems to have got her name from εἴρειν, because she is a messenger.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source [Plato, Cratylus, p.408](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0059.tlg005.perseus-eng1:408)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hermes was the messenger of the gods, and naturally writing would be essential to him. He isn't however credited with inventing writing, at least not until Roman times: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [143] CXLIII. PHORONEUS&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Inachus, son of Oceanus, begat Phoroneus by his sister Argia, and he is said to have been the first of mortals to rule. Men for many centuries before lived without town or laws, speaking one tongue under the rule of Jove. But after Mercury had explained the languages of men (when he is called ermeneutes, “interpreter,” for Mercury in Greek is called Hermes; he too, divided the nations), then discord arose among mortals, which was not pleasing to Jove. And so he gave over the first rule to Phoroneus, because he was first to make offerings to Juno.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [277] CCLXXVII. FIRST INVENTORS&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Parcae, Clotho, Lachesis, and Atropos invented seven Greek letters - A B H T I Y.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Others say that Mercury invented them from the flight of cranes, which, when they fly, form letters.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Palamedes, too, son of Nauplius, invented eleven letters; Simonides, too, invented four letters – Ó E Z PH; Epicharmus of Sicily, two - P and PS.    &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Greek letters Mercury is said to have brought to Egypt, and from Egypt Cadmus took them to Greece. Cadmus in exile from Arcadia, took them to Italy, and his mother Carmenta changed them to Latin to the number of 15.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollo on the lyre added the rest.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Myths of Hyginus, translated and edited by Mary Grant](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusFabulae1.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyginus belief that Hermes brought the Greek letters from Egypt is interesting because Hermes would some times be identified with [Thoth](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoth), who the Egyptians did credit with inventing writing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, the Greeks probably didn't think of writing as a product of divine inspiration; in fact, they were aware their alphabet derived from the Phoenician one: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These Phoenicians who came with [Cadmus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadmus) and of whom the Gephyraeans were a part brought with them to Hellas, among many other kinds of learning, the alphabet, which had been unknown before this, I think, to the Greeks. As time went on the sound and the form of the letters were changed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Herodotus, The Histories, Book 5, chapter 58, section 1](http://data.perseus.org/citations/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0016.tlg001.perseus-eng1:5.58.1)&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9909" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2402" RevisionGUID="850fdae7-4893-4830-a734-d7269262151b" CreationDate="2017-03-01T17:59:31.363" UserId="2892" Text="C.M. Weimer is correct, however the ambiguity seems to be related to the declension of the word &quot;[ambages](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ambages&amp;la=la&amp;can=ambages0&amp;prior=callidus&amp;d=Perseus:text:2008.01.0498:book=1&amp;i=1)&quot; used by Statius to connote a riddle. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Specifically:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**&quot;ambages&quot; can be either singular or plural in the nominative form.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, both translations, &quot;riddle&quot; and &quot;riddles&quot; is valid, although, as Weimer notes, Statius seems to be at odds with most other authors in this regard.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further supporting this view is that the answer in the Oedipus example constitutes a dramatic irony: the the question Oedipus is unwittingly seeking an answer to is &quot;himself&quot; (i.e. a &quot;human being&quot;).  This &quot;joke&quot; is further reinforced by the inscription at the entrance to Apollo's oracle at Delphi: &quot;Know Thyself&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, this single riddle could be said to be sufficient because, in a certain philosophical sense, self knowledge is the most fundamental, and critical, form of knowledge.  Thus, it could be said to be the only truly important knowledge, and thus, the only riddle that needs to be asked.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;REFERENCE: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Latin text of Statius' Thebiad can be found here](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0498).  Unfortunately, Perseus has no English linked, but I found [a serviceable translation here](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/StatiusThebaidI.htm#anchor_Toc337135242).  In this English translation, the author translated riddle in the singular. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9910" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2402" RevisionGUID="0e853138-192d-459c-a8bd-893c231ddd82" CreationDate="2017-03-01T18:14:01.117" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 5 characters in body" Text="C.M. Weimer is correct, however the ambiguity seems to be related to the declension of the word &quot;[ambages](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ambages&amp;la=la&amp;can=ambages0&amp;prior=callidus&amp;d=Perseus:text:2008.01.0498:book=1&amp;i=1)&quot; used by Statius to connote a riddle. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Specifically:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**&quot;ambages&quot; can be either singular or plural in the nominative form.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, both translations, &quot;riddle&quot; and &quot;riddles&quot; is valid, although, as Weimer notes, Statius seems to be at odds with most other authors in this regard.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further supporting this view is that the answer in the Oedipus example constitutes a dramatic irony: the the question Oedipus unwittingly seeks an answer to is &quot;himself&quot; (i.e. a &quot;human being&quot;).  This &quot;joke&quot; is further reinforced by the inscription at the entrance to Apollo's oracle at Delphi: &quot;Know Thyself&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, this single riddle could be said to be sufficient because, in a certain philosophical sense, self knowledge is the most fundamental, and critical, form of knowledge.  Thus, it could be said to be the only truly important knowledge, and thus, the only riddle that needs to be asked.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;REFERENCE: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Latin text of Statius' Thebiad can be found here](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0498).  Unfortunately, Perseus has no English linked, but I found [a serviceable translation here](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/StatiusThebaidI.htm#anchor_Toc337135242).  In this English translation, the author translated riddle in the singular. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9911" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2403" RevisionGUID="5cf55848-6b60-46cd-addb-dc82202e30e3" CreationDate="2017-03-01T18:32:32.040" UserId="292" Text="There are several arguments in favour of the characters in Irish and Welsh myths being deities rather than heroic mortals. One is etymology: if the Irish champion Ogma has a name similar to that of the Gaulish god Ogmios, for example, then we can assume that he may also have been a god. This is true for many Irish and Welsh &quot;deities&quot;, including Danu, Brigit, Rhiannon, and Lugh.  &#xD;&#xA;Another is that the Norse myths are told the same way: Snorri Sturluson and Saxo Grammaticus were both Christians, who described Odin and Co as outstanding mortals, not gods.  &#xD;&#xA;Third, many of the stories told of the Irish and Welsh deities take the pattern of other stories about other deities. (The suffering horse-goddess theme, for example, takes in the Welsh Rhiannon, Greek Demeter and Medusa, and Indian Saranyu.)  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;It is a good question, though, because occasionally someone does still argue that the Irish Tuatha de Dannan or the characters of the Welsh Mabinogion are not deiites, and they do have a point, in that the texts don't describe their characters as divine figures. So writers are making an assumption when they describe figures in Irish and Welsh myth as deities, but I think a justified one." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9913" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2404" RevisionGUID="6a0521c5-bb19-4b97-8d4f-c8e293334270" CreationDate="2017-03-01T19:22:46.677" UserId="292" Text="The goddess Skadi, who skiied and hunted with a bow, is often seen as modelled on the Sami, especially Sami women. Since the Sami were seen as &quot;other&quot;, with a different lifestyle, language and religion, the giants and Sami were often creatively confused, as both lived in Utgard, the Out-lands.  &#xD;&#xA;Andejons mentioned Harolf fairhair and his Sami wife Snaefrid, and her father Svasi is described as a Sami and a jotun (giant), and another story about Harold tells how he helped a man named Dorfi, who is also described as a Sami and a giant. &#xD;&#xA;I have based my answer on a [paper by Else Mundal](http://rp-www.arts.usyd.edu.au/medieval/saga/pdf/346-mundal.pdf), who also thinks that the marriage of Njord and Skadi could be read as a parable on Norse/Sami relations." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9914" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2405" RevisionGUID="e388ce01-8598-4407-a9de-82759d622f9c" CreationDate="2017-03-02T10:00:03.530" UserId="57" Text="I was looking for information on [bear cults][1] when I stumbled upon this little gem: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Native American folklore there are many tales about bears. It is highly respected as the 'keeper of dreams', and 'the keeper of medicine', and is one of the most powerful totems. (Bears hibernate, giving them associations with the world of dreams.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[&quot;Mythology And Folklore Of The Bear | Trees For Life&quot;][2]. Treesforlife.org.uk. N.p., 2017. Web. 2 Mar. 2017.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why are bears thought of as &quot;keepers of dreams&quot;? How does their hibernation connect them with the world of dreams?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear_worship&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://treesforlife.org.uk/forest/mythology-folklore/bear/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9915" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2405" RevisionGUID="e388ce01-8598-4407-a9de-82759d622f9c" CreationDate="2017-03-02T10:00:03.530" UserId="57" Text="How are bears associated with the world of dreams?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9916" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2405" RevisionGUID="e388ce01-8598-4407-a9de-82759d622f9c" CreationDate="2017-03-02T10:00:03.530" UserId="57" Text="|folklore|native-american|animals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9918" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2407" RevisionGUID="7943ab3b-922b-4839-b3a2-95629d80c05c" CreationDate="2017-03-02T20:37:17.587" UserId="2892" Text="Zeus was king of the gods, and his lightening bolt was something of a [supreme weapon in the clash with the titans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhon#Battle_with_Zeus).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And yet, Zeus is often depicted as a hen-pecked husband, fearful of his wife.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What power does Hera have over Zeus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9919" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2407" RevisionGUID="7943ab3b-922b-4839-b3a2-95629d80c05c" CreationDate="2017-03-02T20:37:17.587" UserId="2892" Text="What power does Hera have over Zeus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9920" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2407" RevisionGUID="7943ab3b-922b-4839-b3a2-95629d80c05c" CreationDate="2017-03-02T20:37:17.587" UserId="2892" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9921" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2408" RevisionGUID="d7adaa1c-6283-4feb-9484-7f16afdb14b2" CreationDate="2017-03-02T21:04:49.543" UserId="2892" Text="Hera is not the only goddess of her generation, being a sister to Demeter and Hestia, and Aphrodite, in the Hesiod account, is older (originating from the batter of Ouranos' severed junk when it was discarded and cast into the sea.  Wikipedia states Zeus married her to Hephaestus to avoid jealousy, but no god or titan could stand up to Zeus' thunderbolt.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9922" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2408" RevisionGUID="d7adaa1c-6283-4feb-9484-7f16afdb14b2" CreationDate="2017-03-02T21:04:49.543" UserId="2892" Text="Why is Hera queen of the Gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9923" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2408" RevisionGUID="d7adaa1c-6283-4feb-9484-7f16afdb14b2" CreationDate="2017-03-02T21:04:49.543" UserId="2892" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9927" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2410" RevisionGUID="7306aecb-5a10-48b1-9f32-adc74106419a" CreationDate="2017-03-02T21:14:28.237" UserId="2892" Text="Zeus is supreme except when he vows on the river Styx.  (If he breaks such an oath, he dies.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From what does the most famous of stygian watercourses derive such awesome power? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9928" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2410" RevisionGUID="7306aecb-5a10-48b1-9f32-adc74106419a" CreationDate="2017-03-02T21:14:28.237" UserId="2892" Text="Why does the river Styx have power over the Olympians?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9929" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2410" RevisionGUID="7306aecb-5a10-48b1-9f32-adc74106419a" CreationDate="2017-03-02T21:14:28.237" UserId="2892" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9930" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2411" RevisionGUID="3457910b-06cc-4d01-b2ca-b9db6d8421c1" CreationDate="2017-03-02T21:16:26.513" UserId="2892" Text="What I'm looking for is stories that do not derive from the primary sources." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9931" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2411" RevisionGUID="3457910b-06cc-4d01-b2ca-b9db6d8421c1" CreationDate="2017-03-02T21:16:26.513" UserId="2892" Text="Are there well known folktales involving Norse Gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9932" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2411" RevisionGUID="3457910b-06cc-4d01-b2ca-b9db6d8421c1" CreationDate="2017-03-02T21:16:26.513" UserId="2892" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9933" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2412" RevisionGUID="122b31e6-2705-48df-b27c-56b5c4639f9e" CreationDate="2017-03-02T21:22:22.047" UserId="2892" Text="[Wikipedia states that](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indra#Vedic_texts) &quot;over a quarter of the 1,208 hymns of the Rigveda mention Indra, making him the most referred to deity than any other.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But in teh [post-vedic texts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indra#Post-vedic_texts) his importance is greatly diminished.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What are the reasons for his loss of status?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9934" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2412" RevisionGUID="122b31e6-2705-48df-b27c-56b5c4639f9e" CreationDate="2017-03-02T21:22:22.047" UserId="2892" Text="Why is Indra supplanted as chief God?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9935" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2412" RevisionGUID="122b31e6-2705-48df-b27c-56b5c4639f9e" CreationDate="2017-03-02T21:22:22.047" UserId="2892" Text="|hindu|vedic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9936" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2413" RevisionGUID="3cd2279e-ca82-4172-83b2-32e7ce48f435" CreationDate="2017-03-02T21:25:31.953" UserId="2892" Text="The gods of Asgard come from two tribes, the Aesir and the Vanir.  What is the origin of the Vanir?  How are the Vanir distinct from the Aesir?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9937" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2413" RevisionGUID="3cd2279e-ca82-4172-83b2-32e7ce48f435" CreationDate="2017-03-02T21:25:31.953" UserId="2892" Text="What is the origin of the Vanir?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9938" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2413" RevisionGUID="3cd2279e-ca82-4172-83b2-32e7ce48f435" CreationDate="2017-03-02T21:25:31.953" UserId="2892" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9939" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2414" RevisionGUID="a06b4275-50a6-4cec-a212-eb72807bdf60" CreationDate="2017-03-02T21:35:43.040" UserId="2892" Text="In the wonderful John Sayles film [The Secret of Roan Inish](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_of_Roan_Inish) (1994), the director presents a touching tale of a family with selkie connections.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The film was based on the the novel [Secret of the Ron Mor Skerry](https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/rosalie-k-fry/secret-of-the-ron-mor-skerry/), by Rosalie K. Fry.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Although the novel takes place in Scotland, while the film is set in Ireland, the location change wouldn't have presented a problem for the selkies, per the excellent swimming abilities;)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know the film and book to be based on folktales in general, but are there specific stories from which it derives?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9940" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2414" RevisionGUID="a06b4275-50a6-4cec-a212-eb72807bdf60" CreationDate="2017-03-02T21:35:43.040" UserId="2892" Text="Is &quot;The Secret of Roan Inish&quot; derived from a specific myth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9941" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2414" RevisionGUID="a06b4275-50a6-4cec-a212-eb72807bdf60" CreationDate="2017-03-02T21:35:43.040" UserId="2892" Text="|celtic|irish|scottish|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9942" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2415" RevisionGUID="3afac3d4-fcc8-4e4f-b516-22bcffffa685" CreationDate="2017-03-02T21:37:25.393" UserId="2892" Text="I mean it’s totally badass, dying on your feet and still cutting off a man’s hand *after* you’re dead, but is there more to it than that?  &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9943" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2415" RevisionGUID="3afac3d4-fcc8-4e4f-b516-22bcffffa685" CreationDate="2017-03-02T21:37:25.393" UserId="2892" Text="Why does Cuchulainn lash himself to a standing stone with his guts?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9944" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2415" RevisionGUID="3afac3d4-fcc8-4e4f-b516-22bcffffa685" CreationDate="2017-03-02T21:37:25.393" UserId="2892" Text="|ulster-cycle|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9945" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2416" RevisionGUID="0edc63e8-958f-4ac0-ba4a-bb971a7c2752" CreationDate="2017-03-02T21:48:59.383" UserId="2892" Text="I mean, it's a memorable way to go and demonstrates tremendous commitment, but this is something we usually see in religions deriving from India, where [Agni](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agni) is both a god and integral at a fundamental, philosophical, conscious level.  (Buddhist monks, for example, famously used self-immolation to protest the Vietnam war.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9946" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2416" RevisionGUID="0edc63e8-958f-4ac0-ba4a-bb971a7c2752" CreationDate="2017-03-02T21:48:59.383" UserId="2892" Text="Why does Heracles light himself on fire?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9947" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2416" RevisionGUID="0edc63e8-958f-4ac0-ba4a-bb971a7c2752" CreationDate="2017-03-02T21:48:59.383" UserId="2892" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9948" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2417" RevisionGUID="6905bf9a-5587-4078-8be9-50558b398561" CreationDate="2017-03-02T22:07:15.893" UserId="398" Text="She's a daughter of Zeus in her own right, and so has *some* power on his footing. However, I wouldn't say Zeus is a hen-pecked husband. In the *Iliad* ([560-569](https://records.viu.ca/~johnstoi/homer/iliad1.htm)), Zeus states unequivocally that he is the supreme being of the universe:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;pre&gt;Zeus, the cloud gatherer, spoke out in response:&#xD;&#xA;“My dear lady, you’re always fancying things.&#xD;&#xA;Your attention picks up every detail.&#xD;&#xA;But you can’t do anything about it,&#xD;&#xA;except push yourself still further from my heart,&#xD;&#xA;making matters so much worse for you.&#xD;&#xA;If things are as they are, then that’s the way&#xD;&#xA;I want them. So sit down quietly.&#xD;&#xA;Do as I say. If not, then all the gods&#xD;&#xA;here on Olympus won’t be any help,&#xD;&#xA;when I reach out to set my hands on you,&#xD;&#xA;for they’re invincible.”&#xD;&#xA;Zeus finished speaking.&#xD;&#xA;Ox-eyed queen Hera was afraid—so she sat down,&#xD;&#xA;silently suppressing what her heart desired.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;/pre&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, Hera is his wife, so why deliberately incur her wrath? That's the real reason to hide affairs, human or divine." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9949" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2411" RevisionGUID="a33cbc59-0390-4d3f-bd87-5e49dc78f404" CreationDate="2017-03-02T22:08:04.727" UserId="2892" Comment="added 318 characters in body" Text="What I'm looking for is stories that do not derive from the primary sources.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Oral tradition and textual records of oral tradition are ideal, but I will accept accounts of these figures in popular literature so long as the works are &quot;cultural phenomena&quot; in the sense of being nearly universally known.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All sources should derive from the general regions out of which the deities originate. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9953" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2417" RevisionGUID="f2c93686-9338-41a1-9e06-0379eab3f0fb" CreationDate="2017-03-03T09:32:17.563" UserId="57" Comment="added 21 characters in body" Text="She's a daughter of Zeus in her own right, and so has *some* power on his footing. However, I wouldn't say Zeus is a hen-pecked husband. In the *Iliad* ([560-569](https://records.viu.ca/~johnstoi/homer/iliad1.htm)), Zeus states unequivocally that he is the supreme being of the universe:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zeus, the cloud gatherer, spoke out in response:  &#xD;&#xA;“My dear lady, you’re always fancying things.  &#xD;&#xA;Your attention picks up every detail.  &#xD;&#xA;But you can’t do anything about it,  &#xD;&#xA;except push yourself still further from my heart,  &#xD;&#xA;making matters so much worse for you.  &#xD;&#xA;If things are as they are, then that’s the way  &#xD;&#xA;I want them. So sit down quietly.  &#xD;&#xA;Do as I say. If not, then all the gods  &#xD;&#xA;here on Olympus won’t be any help,  &#xD;&#xA;when I reach out to set my hands on you,  &#xD;&#xA;for they’re invincible.”  &#xD;&#xA;Zeus finished speaking.  &#xD;&#xA;Ox-eyed queen Hera was afraid—so she sat down,  &#xD;&#xA;silently suppressing what her heart desired.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, Hera is his wife, so why deliberately incur her wrath? That's the real reason to hide affairs, human or divine." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9954" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2407" RevisionGUID="de0288e5-bef3-4e36-a97a-605db2a1ae74" CreationDate="2017-03-03T09:32:58.363" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|zeus|hera|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9955" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2408" RevisionGUID="ad58dccb-c3fb-413a-b4f3-809f9166343f" CreationDate="2017-03-03T09:45:21.687" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 72 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Hera is not the only goddess of her generation, being a sister to Demeter and Hestia. Furthermore, Aphrodite, in the Hesiodic account, is older, originating from the batter of Ouranos' severed junk when it was discarded and cast into the sea.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is then Hera queen of the gods?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9956" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2408" RevisionGUID="ad58dccb-c3fb-413a-b4f3-809f9166343f" CreationDate="2017-03-03T09:45:21.687" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 72 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Why is Hera queen of the gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9957" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2408" RevisionGUID="ad58dccb-c3fb-413a-b4f3-809f9166343f" CreationDate="2017-03-03T09:45:21.687" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 72 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|greek|hera|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9958" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2413" RevisionGUID="f891f524-4354-44c3-b5ae-436d9dbabac7" CreationDate="2017-03-03T09:54:34.140" UserId="57" Comment="Asgard is home only to the Aesir, the Vanir live in Vanaheimr." Text="There are two tribes of Norse gods, the Aesir and the Vanir. What is the origin of the Vanir? How are the Vanir distinct from the Aesir?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9959" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2418" RevisionGUID="986ba18d-2d76-4f68-a7db-e3fa2839bef0" CreationDate="2017-03-03T10:10:37.700" UserId="57" Text="According to Hesiod, Zeus appointed Styx, the personification of the river, to be &quot;the great oath of the gods&quot; as a reward for the goddess siding with him in the Titanomachy: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Styx the daughter of Ocean was joined to Pallas and bore Zelus (Emulation) and trim-ankled Nike (Victory) in the house. Also she brought forth Cratos (Strength) and Bia (Force), wonderful children. These have no house apart from Zeus, nor any dwelling nor path except that wherein God leads them, but they dwell always with Zeus the loud-thunderer. For so did Styx the deathless daughter of Ocean plan on that day when the Olympian Lightning god called all the deathless gods to great Olympus, and said that whosoever of the gods would fight with him against the Titans, he would not cast him out from his rights, but each should have the office which he had before amongst the deathless gods. And he declared that he who was without office or right under Cronos, should be raised to both office and rights as is just. So deathless Styx came first to Olympus with her children through the wit of her dear father. And Zeus honored her, and gave her very great gifts, for he appointed her to be the great oath of the gods, and her children to live with him always. And as he promised, so he performed fully unto them all. But he himself mightily reigns and rules.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Hesiod. The Homeric Hymns and Homerica with an English Translation by Hugh G. Evelyn-White. Theogony. Cambridge, MA.,Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1914. - http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0020.tlg001.perseus-eng1:371-403&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Essentially then, the goddess' (and thus the river's) power comes directly from Zeus himself.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9960" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2410" RevisionGUID="689a5f3f-284b-4440-a1a4-e1112b6926d1" CreationDate="2017-03-03T10:11:31.353" UserId="57" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="Zeus is supreme except when he vows on the river Styx. If he breaks such an oath, he will die.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From what does the most famous of stygian watercourses derive such awesome power? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9962" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2419" RevisionGUID="a11c9027-03cb-4c85-b967-6fc71e28be2f" CreationDate="2017-03-03T13:51:27.827" UserId="57" Text="One version of the story of the death of Heracles can be found in Sophocles' *Trachiniae*. In the play, Heracles realising he will not survive Nessus' poison, asks his son Hyllus to prepare a funeral pyre for him on the mount Oeta:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Heracles**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pray, if you break your oath, that you may suffer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Hyllus**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; I shall not break my oath; yet I so pray.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Heracles**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now... do you know Zeus' sacred mountain Oeta?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Hyllus**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Yes. I have often sacrificed upon it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Heracles**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; That is the place where you must carry me  &#xD;&#xA;with your own hands, and with what friends you choose.  &#xD;&#xA;There hew the wood of deeply-rooted oaks  &#xD;&#xA;and slash the trunks of wild male olive trees,  &#xD;&#xA;placing my body on a pyre made from them;  &#xD;&#xA;then take a brightly blazing torch of pine  &#xD;&#xA;and light the pyre. And do not moan and weep,  &#xD;&#xA;for if you are my son you will perform this  &#xD;&#xA;without a sigh or tear. If not, my curse,  &#xD;&#xA;even when I am dead, will weigh upon you.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Sophocles, *Women of Trachis*. Translation and Introduction Copyright 1966 by Robert M. Torrance&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyllus reluctantly constructs the pyre, and then places his father on it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Heracles**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; At last you speak well! Now perform this favor&#xD;&#xA;swiftly, my child, and place me on the pyre&#xD;&#xA;before the stinging spasm comes again.&#xD;&#xA;Make haste and lift me. Now I feel release&#xD;&#xA;from troubles, for my final end is here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Hyllus**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Nothing prevents fulfillment of these deeds,&#xD;&#xA;since you command it and compel us, father&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is certainly noteworthy that Heracles is still alive when placed upon the pyre. However, I do not think the general scene deviates much from the funerary customs of the era. It is a scene comparable to - for example - the cremation of Patroclus, as described in Book 23 of the Iliad. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Furthermore, Heracles does not sacrifice himself to a higher cause, something that I believe is necessary for an act of suicide to be considered self-immolation. The legendary hero is trying to speed up a terribly painful process while observing the traditions of the time - if anything his death is an act of euthanasia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9963" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2391" RevisionGUID="ad156643-9356-476b-b8c3-5b188857f48c" CreationDate="2017-03-03T15:43:45.767" UserId="292" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="Yes, Apollo is the same in both Greek and roman mythology because he is the god of poetry, light, and archery.&#xD;&#xA;  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9964" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2419" RevisionGUID="4a946056-2d21-4c22-95ad-652e516c8d94" CreationDate="2017-03-03T16:21:41.563" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 32 characters in body" Text="One version of the story of the death of Heracles can be found in Sophocles' *Trachiniae*. In the play, Heracles realising he will not survive Nessus' poison, asks his son Hyllus to prepare a funeral pyre for him on the mount Oeta:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Heracles**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pray, if you break your oath, that you may suffer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Hyllus**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; I shall not break my oath; yet I so pray.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Heracles**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now... do you know Zeus' sacred mountain Oeta?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Hyllus**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Yes. I have often sacrificed upon it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Heracles**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; That is the place where you must carry me  &#xD;&#xA;with your own hands, and with what friends you choose.  &#xD;&#xA;There hew the wood of deeply-rooted oaks  &#xD;&#xA;and slash the trunks of wild male olive trees,  &#xD;&#xA;placing my body on a pyre made from them;  &#xD;&#xA;then take a brightly blazing torch of pine  &#xD;&#xA;and light the pyre. And do not moan and weep,  &#xD;&#xA;for if you are my son you will perform this  &#xD;&#xA;without a sigh or tear. If not, my curse,  &#xD;&#xA;even when I am dead, will weigh upon you.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Sophocles, *Women of Trachis*. Translation by Robert M. Torrance&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyllus reluctantly constructs the pyre, and then places his father on it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Heracles**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; At last you speak well! Now perform this favor&#xD;&#xA;swiftly, my child, and place me on the pyre&#xD;&#xA;before the stinging spasm comes again.&#xD;&#xA;Make haste and lift me. Now I feel release&#xD;&#xA;from troubles, for my final end is here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Hyllus**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Nothing prevents fulfillment of these deeds,&#xD;&#xA;since you command it and compel us, father&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is certainly noteworthy that Heracles is still alive when placed upon the pyre. However, I do not think the general scene deviates much from the funerary customs of the era. It is a scene comparable to - for example - the cremation of Patroclus, as described in Book 23 of the Iliad. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Furthermore, Heracles does not sacrifice himself to a higher cause, something that I believe is necessary for an act of suicide to be considered self-immolation. The legendary hero is trying to speed up a terribly painful process while observing the traditions of the time - if anything his death is an act of euthanasia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9965" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2419" RevisionGUID="4c2b9ef3-f165-4c70-b25d-e769db72e1d0" CreationDate="2017-03-03T16:33:07.963" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 32 characters in body" Text="One version of the story of the death of Heracles can be found in Sophocles' *Trachiniae*. In the play, Heracles realising he will not survive Nessus' poison&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;, asks his son Hyllus to prepare a funeral pyre for him on [mount Oeta][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Heracles**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now... do you know Zeus' sacred mountain Oeta?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Hyllus**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Yes. I have often sacrificed upon it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Heracles**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; That is the place where you must carry me  &#xD;&#xA;with your own hands, and with what friends you choose.  &#xD;&#xA;There hew the wood of deeply-rooted oaks  &#xD;&#xA;and slash the trunks of wild male olive trees,  &#xD;&#xA;placing my body on a pyre made from them;  &#xD;&#xA;then take a brightly blazing torch of pine  &#xD;&#xA;and light the pyre. And do not moan and weep,  &#xD;&#xA;for if you are my son you will perform this  &#xD;&#xA;without a sigh or tear. If not, my curse,  &#xD;&#xA;even when I am dead, will weigh upon you.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Sophocles, *Women of Trachis*. Translation by Robert M. Torrance&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyllus reluctantly agrees and constructs the pyre, and then places his father on it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Heracles**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; At last you speak well! Now perform this favor&#xD;&#xA;swiftly, my child, and place me on the pyre&#xD;&#xA;before the stinging spasm comes again.&#xD;&#xA;Make haste and lift me. Now I feel release&#xD;&#xA;from troubles, for my final end is here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Hyllus**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Nothing prevents fulfillment of these deeds,&#xD;&#xA;since you command it and compel us, father&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is certainly noteworthy that Heracles is still alive when placed upon the pyre. However, I do not think the general scene deviates much from the funerary customs of the era. It is a scene comparable to - for example - the cremation of Patroclus, as described in Book 23 of the Iliad. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Furthermore, Heracles does not sacrifice himself to a higher cause, something that I believe is necessary for an act of suicide to be considered self-immolation. The legendary hero is trying to speed up a terribly painful process while observing the traditions of the time - if anything his death is an act of euthanasia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; It might be worth mentioning that at this point there's no doubt Heracles will die, his death having been foretold by Zeus at Dodona.&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Oeta" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9966" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2420" RevisionGUID="ebe66008-f904-4645-af55-7bb1d86912d5" CreationDate="2017-03-03T19:08:55.003" UserId="666" Text="Big question. Let's start from the start:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The mythological origin of the Vanir&#xD;&#xA;-----------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a big question mark - there is nothing in the myths about the world's creation that suggests anything about where the Vanir came from. There is no good hint at all. The Vanir seems to be somehow related to the elves - probably the Ljósálfar (&quot;light elves&quot;), and the Dökkálfar (&quot;dark elves&quot;) are by some identified with the dwarves, for which we have creation myths - but this is an extreme long shot, and trying to make something of it would not make much sense at all.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Vanir suddenly appear in the mythology. We are told that they hail from Vanaheim, and the first one we meet in *Völuspa* is a strange Völva called [Gullveig][1], whom the Aesir spears and attempts to burn three times, but each time she is reborn. It is possible that she is really Freya under another name. After this, the great war between the gods begins; a war that ends in a draw and a peace between the gods, where they exchange hostages. There is a longer about what happened after the end of the war, but for this discussion, the important end result was that the Aesir received Njord, Frey and Freya. This is all attested in *Völuspa* and by Snorri in *Heimskringla*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The real-world history of the Vanir&#xD;&#xA;-----------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;Here we have something extremely rare in the field of norse mythology: a very early attestation of worship, in the form of an account in Tacitus' *Germania*. Tacitus tells us of the goddess [Nerthus][2], primarily of how she was worshipped in southern Jutland. Still, just her name has given quite a bit of insight, as it is clearly a cognate of &quot;Njord&quot;. A goddess *Njärd can also be found in some place names. Scholarly speculation has been along two main lines:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. That the goddess Nerthus somehow evolved into the god Njord. &#xD;&#xA; 2. That this is a reflection of a custom of the Vanir the myths tells us about: the sibling marriage. Just as brother and sister Frey and Freya shares the stem of their name, so would Njord and Nerthus. Nerthus would thus be the mother of Frey and Freya, but would have faded into nothing by the time the Norse myths were written down. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, it should be noted that the Vanir seems to have been an exclusively Scandinavian set of gods: there are no attestations of them in continental Germanic sources.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The role of the Vanir&#xD;&#xA;---------------------&#xD;&#xA;After the war, and some disputes following it, the Aesir and Vanir seem to have gotten along well; they were worshipped at the same places, and there is no reason to suppose there were any friction between those that preferred one god to another. (Margaret Clunies Ross have a different interpretation, where the Aesir would be dominant over the Vanir, but I am not convinced that there is sufficient evidence of this, as the number of Vanir appearing in the myths is so small).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of roles, the Vanir were associated with things like fertility, harvests, and bounty from the sea (this is true even of Nerthus, who seems to have been a Great mother type of goddess). Freya was an especially important deity: she had first pick of half the dead heroes for her hall, where the remainder went to Odin and Valhall. She was also responsible for teaching the Aesir the use of [Seiðr][3], a potent form of magic, even if it was considered unmanly. And while Frey is primarily a god for farmers, his name means &quot;ruler&quot;, and he seems to have had a warlike side as well. He was also thought to have been the primogenitor of the old Swedish royal house.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apart from the primary sources indicated in the text, I have mostly relied on Gro Steinsland, *Fornnordisk religion*. For another take on the relative status of Aesir and Vanir, and a more in depth discussion of their war, see Margaret Clunies Ross, *Prolonged echoes*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gullveig&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerthus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sei%C3%B0r" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9967" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2330" RevisionGUID="55c78dba-28a3-4ab7-ac82-b1e22f085f62" CreationDate="2017-03-03T19:18:51.143" UserId="666" Comment="Adding another example" Text="Not exactly&#xD;&#xA;------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We probably come closest in [Balder's dreams][1]: Balder dreams of being killed, and thus Odin rides to Hel and wakes the corpse of a Völva to find what it means. However, while is not clearly specified which kind of magic is used, runes or seiðr (Odin was proficient in both), it is said that he worked it by saying it, rather than carving or painting it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A similar motif is also found in [Grógaldr][2], where Svipdag summons his dead mother (also a Völva) to aid him in a quest given him by his evil stepmother. Again, the kind of magic is not specified.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the method of waking her is similar to the one employed by Freya in [Hyndluljóð][3] to wake Hyndla. Here, it is not specified that she is dead when she is woken, but given that this seems a common trope, we can assume it. If so, then we can be reasonable sure that this is seiðr rather than rune magic, since Freya was the one who brought the knowledge of this to the Aesir.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, we have the [Hervarar saga][4], where Hervor awakens her father to get the cursed sword Tyrfing from his Burrow. Again, this is done by calling out to him, in a similar manner to Grógaldr and Hyndluljóð.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, while there is a common motif of heroes waking the dead temporarily to get something from them, it is never explicitly linked with runes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(For an example of someone actually using runic magic, see Egil's saga, where he breaks a botched attempt at love runes and renders a cup of poison safe to drink).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Edit&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;I remembered another resurrection in the myths: when Odin revived Mimir's severed head. This is retold in *Heimskringla*, and is said to have been done by [galdrar][5].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe13.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gr%C3%B3galdr&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe15.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.germanicmythology.com/FORNALDARSAGAS/HervararSagaTunstall.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galdr" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9968" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2217" RevisionGUID="cb73cbc5-0d7a-4847-8e27-d549c8d432e4" CreationDate="2017-03-03T20:10:08.837" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="9969" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2411" RevisionGUID="675bdabb-ba5a-4141-a78f-741c27526524" CreationDate="2017-03-03T20:28:47.057" UserId="2892" Comment="Another attempt to clarify per Andejons useful suggestions." Text="What I'm looking for is stories that do not derive from the Eddas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Oral tradition and textual records of oral tradition are ideal, but I will accept accounts of these figures in popular literature so long as the works are &quot;cultural phenomena&quot; in the sense of being nearly universally known.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All sources should derive from the general regions out of which the deities originate, in the sense of being part of the culture of that held belief in these deities. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9970" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2421" RevisionGUID="76b3a973-e73a-4fef-b202-23e987f30f1d" CreationDate="2017-03-04T03:38:58.640" UserId="967" Text="I'm relatively a beginner at mythology, but what difference does a different translation make? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As per [this post][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Only a single translation of a given passage is offered[, which could lead to a different idea].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Well, when I learn french, some people in my class may get some words or syntax wrong, but the class gets the general idea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Two translations would come from the same primary source, so there shouldn't be much confusion, right?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://meta.mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/395/should-we-be-more-measured-in-how-we-regard-theoi?cb=1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9971" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2421" RevisionGUID="76b3a973-e73a-4fef-b202-23e987f30f1d" CreationDate="2017-03-04T03:38:58.640" UserId="967" Text="What difference does a different translation make?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9972" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2421" RevisionGUID="76b3a973-e73a-4fef-b202-23e987f30f1d" CreationDate="2017-03-04T03:38:58.640" UserId="967" Text="|untagged|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9973" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2422" RevisionGUID="c822d846-4130-4a08-b1b5-2750bd5a721d" CreationDate="2017-03-04T06:43:47.507" UserId="2774" Text="Interesting question. I should say that for Latin and Greek I am not so sure the translation are all that different (I invite anyone to demonstrate the contrary). Now it would if either Solsdottir or Andejons could do what I will do here with Norse myth.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;I will give here something I know well: a Sumerian text passage with the ETCSL translation a translation by samuel Noah kramer and a translation but Thorkild Jacobsen.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;First Sumerian is an old quite unmastered language different from a lot modern languages due to the distance we probably miss a lot, including the fact Sumerian texts was probably sung and music does not carry well on stone table.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ETCSL version: Enlil's commands are by far the loftiest, his {words}&#xD;&#xA;&gt; {(1 ms. has instead:) commands} are holy, his utterances are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; immutable! The fate he decides is everlasting, his glance makes the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mountains anxious, his ...... reaches (?) into the interior of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mountains.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jacobsen's version: Enlil, his orders august&lt;BR&gt;   into the far yonder,&lt;BR&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; his words holy, &lt;BR&gt; his unalterable utterances&lt;BR&gt;   decisive &lt;BR&gt;  into the far&#xD;&#xA;&gt; future,&lt;BR&gt; his lifting up the eyes&lt;br&gt;   taking in the mountains &lt;br&gt;his raising&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of eyebeams&lt;br&gt;   scanning the highlands's heart&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kramer's version: Enlil whose command is far-reaching, whise word is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; holy, the Lord whose pronouncement is unchangeable, who forever decrees&#xD;&#xA;&gt; destinies, whose lifted eyes scans the lands, whose lifted lights&#xD;&#xA;&gt; searches the heart of all the lands.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Let's take a look at Jacobsen translation. Very poetic in nature, one has to remind jacobsen's classical book is &quot;Treasures of Darkness&quot; thats help to see the esoterical nature of this man and the poetic feeling of his translation.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now let's compare with his friend/rival Samuel Noah Kramer's version. It is translated in prose, the vocabulary less rich, no more the &quot;his&quot; aliteration, but a who/whose aliteration.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The ETCSL version is giving a compromise,, the vocabulary is less rich than jacobsen'one, no more inversion, but the 'his' aliteration is back. let's compare (line 4 of the original) :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - ETCsL: his utterances are immutable&#xD;&#xA; - Jacobsen: his unalterable utterances&#xD;&#xA; - Kramer: the Lord whose pronouncement is unchangeable&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now let's take a look at those line 3/4 and precisely the Sumerian original:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 3.	igi il2-la-ni kur-re di-di&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4.	jic-nu11 il2-la-ni kur-cag4-ga igi jal2&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Line 3 igi illania&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - Line 4 ilani ... igi&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In all versions the aliteration present in the original Sumerian is rendered a little bit differently, the choice of vocabulary and placement of the words is differents, we are going from: his *unalterable utterances* to *the Lord whose pronouncement is unchangeable*.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The idea lying behind is the same, but the way it is rendered is quite different, especially when you compare the quite poetic nature of Jacobsen's version with the very earthly Kramer's version.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;So when you are confronted with poetry, should you try to render in verse or in prose, should you use modern metric, or not, should you try to render the aliteration the tone of the words or the general sense, should you show your own skill at poetry (as Jacobsen) or a clear translation how do you pick your vocabulary. Prose is always easier to render just because you miss the poetic aliterations most of the time (does not means translating prose is easy...). That is why different translations can have a different feeling hence DukeZhou's remark. That is true nowadays with let's say Shakespeare translations that you will find in prose or verses.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9974" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2423" RevisionGUID="bdb9aaf7-08f1-4dd6-9360-96127c42d6c0" CreationDate="2017-03-04T07:29:30.763" UserId="2708" Text="While Gibet is completely right, there are far more elementary issues hidden.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Basically whenever someone has to read or listen and interpret a story there might be differences, which in the end can change the whole content, especially while translating.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Let's take a short, modern English sentence:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He was done.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What does it mean? Especially with a lack of context this can vary quite a bit. Did he finish something? Or did he stop, because he couldn't get himself to complete it?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a native speaker, you might have a different idea on what's obvious or preferred when using a specific term. Translators often don't have that advantage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also words can change meaning over time. A popular example coming to my mind would be men &quot;knowing&quot; women in the Bible. Someone in school today could interpret it just as that. They knew each other. But when the initial translation was made it meant they were impregnated. Quite a difference, don't you think?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9975" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2424" RevisionGUID="3b079c55-3bbf-4eb9-b5c4-b6e556d8f47e" CreationDate="2017-03-04T10:40:10.033" UserId="666" Text="Well, &quot;folklore&quot; is a very broad concept. Since &quot;Not of the Eddas&quot; still leaves quite a few important sources which I don't think were intended to be included, I'll briefly list them and move on:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Saxo's *Gesta Danorum*, which contains independent retellings, but which seldom is used in interpretations, particularly non-scholarly ones.&#xD;&#xA; - Scaldic poetry not actually part of *Snorri's Edda*, or the collection known as *The Poetic Edda*.&#xD;&#xA; - Snorri's *Heimskringla*, in particular the first parts of the *Ynglingasaga*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond this, there are other important sources but which does not relate to *stories* as much as things like *cultic practice*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anyway, on to actual stories:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## The Wild hunt ##&#xD;&#xA;The most well-known and varied story is probably that of the [Wild hunt][1]. The general myth appears all over Europe, with several different figures as leaders of the hunt, but in Scandinavia (as well as in souther Germany and Switzerland), it is lead by Odin. In Germany, it also appears to sometimes to be lead by Frigg or Freya.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odin's last battle&#xD;&#xA;------------------&#xD;&#xA;While I could techinally exclude this on the grounds that it is actually older then Snorri's Edda, it is roughly contemporary with the story it tells, so I will include it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [Bagler Sagas][2], which mostly deals with Norwegian civil wars 1202-1217, there is an episode where Odin appears to a blacksmith and explains that while he has been busy in Norway for a while, he will now leave for Sweden. Four days after this stood [The battle of Lena][3], in which Eric Knutsson of Sweden defeated the disposed king Sverker the older, who sought to return with Danish aid.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Loka Táttur&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;[Loka Táttur][4] is an interesting piece: a medieval [Faroese ballad][5], it tells a story of how a farmer lost a bet with the giant Skrymir, who demanded his son as payment. The farmer asked three gods for help: first Odin, then Hœnir, and finally Loki. The first two manage to barely keep the boy safe for a day by hiding him first as an ax in a field of crop, and then as a feather on the head of a swan, but the giant almost get to him. Loki, in turn, hide him in the roe of a flounder. The giant catches this flounder, but Loki has prepared a trap, and manages to kill the giant and return the boy to his father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odin, aiding and abetting&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------&#xD;&#xA;Well, this is kind of borderline, but I include it because I find it interesting. In October 1484 in Stockholm, a thief named Ragvald &quot;Odinskarl&quot; confessed that he for several years had been forsworn to Odin, who had helped him to break into and steal for churches. Ragnvald was executed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thor, slayer of giants&#xD;&#xA;----------------------&#xD;&#xA;Again, not much of a story here, but some mythological remnants of Thor collected in Sweden: first, that thunder and lightning were for a long, long time connected with Thor, and second, a belief that giants and trolls were once real, but that they had all been killed by Thor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Freya, maker of mischief&#xD;&#xA;------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a folk belief from Småland in Sweden: according to it, during the night before Christmas day (generally a dangerous night according to folk belief), Freya would cause mischief: she would shake the fruit trees, and if a farmer had forgotten his plow or harrow outside, she would sit on it and make it useless. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA; - The story of Odin and the blacksmith, before the battle of Lena, can be found in [Till 1700-årsminnet af slaget vid Lena][6] in *Fornvännen* by Frits Läffler (1908) &#xD;&#xA; - Loka Tattir can be found in Faroese and with English translation [here][7].&#xD;&#xA; - The ideas about Thor I found in [Swedish Wikipedia][8], in turn citing Folklorist Ebbe Schön.&#xD;&#xA; - For the story of Ragvald Odinskarl, [here][9] is an online source quoting the original source with an English translation.&#xD;&#xA; - The story of Freya I found in Britt-Mari Näsströ, *Nordiska gudinnor*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Hunt&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagler_sagas&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lena&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loka_T%C3%A1ttur&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kv%C3%A6%C3%B0i&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://samla.raa.se/xmlui/bitstream/handle/raa/558/1908_092.pdf;sequence=1&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.northvegr.org/misc%20primary%20sources/lokka_tattur/index.html&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tor&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.academia.edu/1964090/Odin_Magic_and_a_Swedish_Trial_from_1484" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9976" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2425" RevisionGUID="0b6c9f6d-b4ec-488e-9751-5509499f9196" CreationDate="2017-03-04T13:13:46.950" UserId="666" Text="First, it should be noted that this question is not particular to mythology: the same problem appears in history and literature as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Second, we should note that using a translation is always a secondary or tertiary choice for the serious scholar. When doing a study of a text, it is always preferable to be able read it in the original language. If that is not possible, it is best to be able to ask someone who can read it to clear up any uncertainties. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gibet has given some very good examples of the different styles of translations possible - tending towards to get the sense behind the words right, or transmitting an idea of the poetry. Mario gives a good example of how there might be translation difficulties also in prose.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, what translations should we use? Are we interested in a bigger picture (&quot;What will happen at Ragnarök?&quot;)? Then we might make do with any reasonably accurate translation. Are we interested in some detail  (&quot;[Did Loki give birth to a monster?][1]&quot;)? Then we might need something that gets the sense of the text right. Are we perhaps interested in the language used to describe someone (an important issue when seeking Christian influence in Norse mythology)? Then we certainly would need the original, or at least several different translations that aim to be as literal as possible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As an example when you would need to consider all of these is Norse poetry. It is notably convoluted, using both a meter, with alliteration (and sometimes rhyme), and [kennings][2], mythological allusions that sometimes goes in several stages. [Here][3] is a site that analyses Þórsdrápa. Just browsing it will quickly let you see how difficult it would be to translate it and still keep some remnant of the original form. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To summarise: it is not always necessary to consult several translations, depending on what question you are interested in. However, it would be a serious mistake to use any given translation as if it were perfect and dependable in every detail. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2113/did-loki-give-birth-to-a-monster/2115#2115&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenning&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://notendur.hi.is//~eybjorn/ugm/thorsd00.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9977" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2426" RevisionGUID="61d9d076-f9ec-4ea5-bc9f-8a60274c8851" CreationDate="2017-03-05T02:21:02.443" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="I am aware that some mythologies/religions include species apart from humans and gods(e.g. Islam and Norse mythology). However, are there any stories which are  written about them? My definition for &quot;stories&quot; for this questions, will be stories that are about individuals or groups seen as the protagonists( e.g. Mahabharata in Hinduism[this story, however, is not about a species different from humans]). Please note that I am *not* looking for origin stories of a particular species nor stories about people who are (semi-)divine, like avatars of Hinduism  or demigods of Greco-Roman mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9978" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2426" RevisionGUID="61d9d076-f9ec-4ea5-bc9f-8a60274c8851" CreationDate="2017-03-05T02:21:02.443" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Are there any stories which are about a species that is neither human nor divine?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9979" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2426" RevisionGUID="61d9d076-f9ec-4ea5-bc9f-8a60274c8851" CreationDate="2017-03-05T02:21:02.443" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="|mythical-creatures|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9983" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2427" RevisionGUID="071bae73-580d-4666-bd91-123c27efe578" CreationDate="2017-03-06T12:11:52.673" UserId="3230" Text="Dante places [Cleopatra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleopatra) and [Dido](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dido) in the second circle of Hell, on account of their lust. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, both queens took their own lives. Shouldn't they be placed in the seventh circle, with the other suicides?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9984" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2427" RevisionGUID="071bae73-580d-4666-bd91-123c27efe578" CreationDate="2017-03-06T12:11:52.673" UserId="3230" Text="Why are Dido and Cleopatra in the second circle of Hell?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9985" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2427" RevisionGUID="071bae73-580d-4666-bd91-123c27efe578" CreationDate="2017-03-06T12:11:52.673" UserId="3230" Text="|dante|inferno|divine-comedy|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9993" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2427" RevisionGUID="299349ff-c604-416c-84cf-aebd5200ac34" CreationDate="2017-03-06T12:27:22.910" UserId="3230" Comment="edited tags" Text="|christianity|dante|inferno|divine-comedy|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9994" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2428" RevisionGUID="f98e0591-1a62-45d4-a2f7-d60ceff39807" CreationDate="2017-03-06T20:55:37.987" UserId="201" Text="Dante conceived of the architecture of Hell as an inverted church. The higher circles are lesser sins, and each descending circle represents what he saw as greater sins.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sin of Lust was, to Dante, getting so swept up in your passion or your emotion that you lost sight of God. That was both Dido's and Cleopatra's besetting sin. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From John Ciardi's translation, p46:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[Dante and Virgil] find themselves on a dark ledge swept by a great whirlwind, which spins within it the souls of the CARNAL, those who betrayed reason to their appetites. Their sin was to abandon themselves to the tempest of their passions, so they are swept forever in the tempest of Hell, forever denied the light of reason and of God. Virgil identifies many among them. SEMIRAMIS is there, and DIDO, CLEOPATRA, HELEN, ACHILLES, PARIS, and TRISTAN.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;p48:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The other is Dido, faithless to the ashes &lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;of Sichaeus, she killed herself for love. &lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The next whom the eternal tempest lashes&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;is sense-drugged Cleopatra.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While suicide is an attack against God — wasting the life you were given — both women killed themselves out of grief over losing a man they loved (Aeneas and Mark Antony respectively). Both of them committed suicide out of Lust/love/passion, not out of depression or rejecting God. They would have been damned for their excess lust, in Dante's view, no matter how they died. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;from p112, Circle Seven, Round Three:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;...the Poets move on to the next round, a great PLAIN OF BURNING SAND upon which there descends an eternal slow RAIN OF FIRE.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the edge of this plain is the Wood Of Suicides, but the text really doesn't give us much. There's a lot about the other kinds of sinners there, who are violent against God, Nature, and Art, but nothing really about the Wood itself. Virgil tells Dante (p115):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[&quot;]Now follow me; and mind for your own good &lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;you do not step upon the burning sand,&lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;but keep well back along the edge of the wood.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dante's view of Hell is that each person chooses his or her own punishment in the way s/he actively chose to turn away from goodness and God in life. So Dido and Cleopatra chose to wallow in physical lust and then grief. Conversely, Capaneus died cursing God (actually cursing Jove, an interesting juxtaposition) while storming Thebes, so his sin was blasphemy, earning him a place in the seventh circle. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9998" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2430" RevisionGUID="0aa52f33-44fb-44d4-a703-cb463f7b55c0" CreationDate="2017-03-06T23:33:41.777" UserId="2892" Text="In other words, what does Agamemnon gain by forcing her into marriage, and to what degree does Agamemnon's status depend on his royal wife?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Eleanor of Aquitaine as &quot; the most eligible bride in Europe&quot; would be a woman of similar status, who also had a high degree of agency.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="9999" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2430" RevisionGUID="0aa52f33-44fb-44d4-a703-cb463f7b55c0" CreationDate="2017-03-06T23:33:41.777" UserId="2892" Text="What is Clytemnestra's dowry? How does it compare to Helen's?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10000" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2430" RevisionGUID="0aa52f33-44fb-44d4-a703-cb463f7b55c0" CreationDate="2017-03-06T23:33:41.777" UserId="2892" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10001" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2431" RevisionGUID="d8e8458e-4d2b-4e3a-9b34-5f6cfa7b9045" CreationDate="2017-03-07T03:31:29.747" UserId="2892" Text="(Of dead heroes, that is.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*My guess, based on my own gut inclination, has to do with Freyja's allure, which clouds my senses, and makes me want to wait for Ragnarök in her most pleasant company, even though Odin probably has better stories.  Thus, she has her pick of the litter, and those she rejects go with daddy.* " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10002" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2431" RevisionGUID="d8e8458e-4d2b-4e3a-9b34-5f6cfa7b9045" CreationDate="2017-03-07T03:31:29.747" UserId="2892" Text="Why did Freyja have first pick?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10003" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2431" RevisionGUID="d8e8458e-4d2b-4e3a-9b34-5f6cfa7b9045" CreationDate="2017-03-07T03:31:29.747" UserId="2892" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10004" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2432" RevisionGUID="300ba07d-0cad-423a-a1fd-6a474e57693b" CreationDate="2017-03-07T03:59:35.777" UserId="743" Text="Without touching on the issues attendant to the idea of someone asking a question with '*the* answer' already in mind, let alone trying to suss whatever that might be out, I'm going to answer as cogently and enjoyably as I can, even if the range of potentials I give might might make it uncomfortably close to opining.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would preface this by saying I'm answering for Hera in the Greek mythos, not Juno over on the Italian peninsula, though I suppose a lot of the same reasoning might apply.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To begin with, and buttressing yannis's comment, there is an appreciable amount of merit in the idea that Hera is queen of the gods because she's the consort of Zeus, who is the king. This is very linear, though, and comes out sounding like premature certainty (*hey, it happens to every guy a few times in his life*).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moving along, considering Hera's attributes on their own, there is some reason to call her the queen. The first argument I'd advance is based on her 'birth order'. Greek tradition varies on this, but one of the most popular is that Kronos and Rhea had six children, first three females and three males. In this tradition the order is Hestia, Demeter, Hera, followed by Hades, Poseidon and Zeus. [Hesiod's *Theogeny* favors this order.][1] However, Kronos's bad child-eating habits, and Zeus's freeing his siblings from their father's stomach later on, means they have *two* 'birth' orders - the first reckoning from Rhea's vagina, the second from Kronos's mouth - and in this sense Zeus is both the youngest *and* oldest. This is, incidentally, one of the bases for Hestia's epithet 'First and Last', but more to the point places Hera as the first, and therefore primary, of the goddesses.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover, we ought consider the somewhat murky etymology of her name. If it derives ultimately from a feminine form of '*heros*' - as in 'the ascendant male - then she is the ascendant, and paramount, female.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lastly, and maybe most importantly, we must concern ourselves with Hera's bailiwick as goddess of marriage, domesticity, womanliness and, in an attenuated sense, motherhood. If a king is the 'father' of a nation (or if he is popularly seen this way) then a queen would be a mother to a nation. By the reflexive property, a mother would be a queen. Most mothers' 'royal' prerogative extends only so far as their property line or the influence over their relatives and social circles, whereas Hera's would encompass Olympus and the 'nation' of the deities who rule from there. This cannot be seen to emanate from Zeus's authority, as each is necessary for the existence and validity of the other, and the fact that Zeus commonly carries the epithet '(husband) of Hera' stands as evidence that Hera's *power/prerogative/authority* is distinct from Zeus's, even if the two end up irrevocably intertwined.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cheers!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/TreeHesiod.html%20See%20this%20graphic%20for%20a%20reference%20to%20Hesiod's%20Theogeny." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10005" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2432" RevisionGUID="4034742c-9f94-4fee-a487-5c2152879edd" CreationDate="2017-03-07T05:17:24.623" UserId="743" Comment="deleted 6 characters in body" Text="Without touching on the issues attendant to the idea of someone asking a question with '*the* answer' already in mind, let alone trying to suss whatever that might be out, I'm going to answer as cogently and enjoyably as I can, even if the range of potentials I give might make it uncomfortably close to opining.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would preface this by saying I'm answering for Hera in the Greek mythos, not Juno over on the Italian peninsula, though I suppose a lot of the same reasoning might apply.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To begin with, and buttressing yannis's comment, there is an appreciable amount of merit in the idea that Hera is queen of the gods because she's the consort of Zeus, who is the king. This is very linear, though, and comes out sounding like premature certainty (*hey, it happens to every guy a few times in his life*).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moving along, considering Hera's attributes on their own, there is some reason to call her the queen. The first argument I'd advance is based on her 'birth order'. Greek tradition varies on this, but one of the most popular is that Kronos and Rhea had six children, first three females and then three males. In this tradition the order is Hestia, Demeter, Hera, followed by Hades, Poseidon and Zeus. [Hesiod's *Theogeny* favors this order.][1] However, Kronos's bad child-eating habits, and Zeus's freeing his siblings from their father's stomach later on, means they have *two* 'birth' orders - the first reckoning from Rhea's vagina, the second from Kronos's mouth - and in this sense Zeus is both the youngest *and* oldest. This is, incidentally, one of the bases for Hestia's epithet 'First and Last', but more to the point places Hera as the first, and therefore primary, of the goddesses.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover, we ought consider the somewhat murky etymology of her name. If it derives ultimately from a feminine form of '*heros*' - as in 'the ascendant male' - then she is the ascendant, and paramount, female.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lastly, and maybe most importantly, we must concern ourselves with Hera's bailiwick as goddess of marriage, domesticity, womanliness and, in an attenuated sense, motherhood. If a king is the 'father' of a nation (or if he is popularly seen this way) then a queen would be a mother to a nation. By the reflexive property, a mother would be a queen. Most mothers' 'royal' prerogative extends only so far as their property line or the influence over their relatives and social circles, whereas Hera's would encompass Olympus and the 'nation' of the deities who rule from there. This cannot be seen to emanate from Zeus's authority, as each is necessary for the existence and validity of the other, and the fact that Zeus commonly carries the epithet '(husband) of Hera' stands as evidence that Hera's *power/prerogative/authority* is distinct from Zeus's, even if the two end up irrevocably intertwined.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cheers!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/TreeHesiod.html%20See%20this%20graphic%20for%20a%20reference%20to%20Hesiod's%20Theogeny." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10007" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1362" RevisionGUID="d092a3f0-0e87-4d98-adfa-bcb2274755b4" CreationDate="2017-03-07T15:33:15.313" UserId="2810" Comment="removed thank you, added clarification" Text="What is the fate of Moirai &amp; Parcae (the Fates) in Roman &amp; Greek mythologies? Are they mortal? If they are destined to die when &amp; how it happens?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10008" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1362" RevisionGUID="d092a3f0-0e87-4d98-adfa-bcb2274755b4" CreationDate="2017-03-07T15:33:15.313" Comment="Proposed by 2810 approved by 666, 2774 edit id of 425" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10010" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2431" RevisionGUID="3249593e-88d0-436d-9db1-8b32de883edb" CreationDate="2017-03-07T22:31:08.403" UserId="2892" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="(Of dead heroes, that is.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*My guess, based on my own gut inclination, has to do with Freyja's glamour, which clouds my senses, and makes me want to wait for Ragnarök in her most pleasant company, even though Odin probably has better stories.  Thus, she has her pick of the litter, and those she rejects go with daddy.* " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10011" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2433" RevisionGUID="40f1b448-df1b-4020-bbf3-0fbf7fe6f43f" CreationDate="2017-03-07T22:36:15.350" UserId="666" Text="**The sources does not say.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While verse 14 in *Grimnismál* - in which we are told that Freyja chooses half the slain every day and the rest goes to Odin - is not the only place that puts Freya in the role of a death goddess, it is an aspect of her that is not elaborated much on. There is a passage in *Egill's saga* where his daughter Þorgerðr saysclaims that she will soon die and go to Freya, and Snorri, in chapter 20 in *Skáldskaparmál*, also calls her &quot;possesor of the slain&quot;. The name of her hall, Sessrumne, meaning &quot;many seats&quot;, and its location next to the field Folkvang, &quot;battle meadow&quot;, also fits with this. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Britt-Mari Näsström has suggested two things in connection with this: the first is that Freya and Odin might have a division of the fallen due to some earlier division in initiation rites, and the second is that she here acts as a valkyrie, who also are choosers of the slain. The first is as far as I'm aware mostly speculation since we do not know much about any initiation rites at all, while the second seems more plausible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But really, there is nothing at all that gives a good indication of why she chooses first, or what criteria she might use.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first paragraph is based on Britt-Mari Näsström, *Nordiska gudinnor*, which also contains more material on Freyja as a war and death goddess. The second is based on [Freyja – The Trivalent Goddess][1], also by Näsström; unfortunately, the most interesting page is not available in preview (I found it through Wikipedia, and was able to confirm the above by searching for &quot;valkyrie&quot;).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.se/books?id=TU_H79-CtucC&amp;pg=PA57&amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10013" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2433" RevisionGUID="75cc6138-c122-4e3e-b989-9a8926ab45f2" CreationDate="2017-03-08T07:13:53.200" UserId="666" Comment="deleted 6 characters in body" Text="**The sources does not say.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While verse 14 in *Grimnismál* - in which we are told that Freyja chooses half the slain every day and the rest goes to Odin - is not the only place that puts Freya in the role of a death goddess, it is an aspect of her that is not elaborated much on. There is a passage in *Egill's saga* where his daughter Þorgerðr says that she will soon die and go to Freya, and Snorri, in chapter 20 in *Skáldskaparmál*, also calls her &quot;possesor of the slain&quot;. The name of her hall, Sessrumne, meaning &quot;many seats&quot;, and its location next to the field Folkvang, &quot;battle meadow&quot;, also fits with this. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Britt-Mari Näsström has suggested two things in connection with this: the first is that Freya and Odin might have a division of the fallen due to some earlier division in initiation rites, and the second is that she here acts as a valkyrie, who also are choosers of the slain. The first is as far as I'm aware mostly speculation since we do not know much about any initiation rites at all, while the second seems more plausible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But really, there is nothing at all that gives a good indication of why she chooses first, or what criteria she might use.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first paragraph is based on Britt-Mari Näsström, *Nordiska gudinnor*, which also contains more material on Freyja as a war and death goddess. The second is based on [Freyja – The Trivalent Goddess][1], also by Näsström; unfortunately, the most interesting page is not available in preview (I found it through Wikipedia, and was able to confirm the above by searching for &quot;valkyrie&quot;).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.se/books?id=TU_H79-CtucC&amp;pg=PA57&amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10014" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="1278" RevisionGUID="e4051fb6-a2ba-4f6f-8ca2-5036e4af6411" CreationDate="2017-03-08T11:33:19.507" UserId="-1" Comment="42" />
  <row Id="10018" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="2121" RevisionGUID="c3dcae41-63cd-4f03-8893-1bb45f3567b8" CreationDate="2017-03-08T19:12:16.513" UserId="183" Comment="43" />
  <row Id="10020" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2436" RevisionGUID="a90a300d-9914-4cb8-a40d-687ddf2d513d" CreationDate="2017-03-09T13:57:36.313" UserId="3530" Text="The Ancient Mesopotamian Epic of Gilgamesh, the oldest surviving written tablets of which are dated to 1800 BC, written in Akkadian (language of the Assyrians and Babylonians) and based on earlier Sumerian tales, includes a flood story that has differences from the Biblical story of Noah but enough similarities there is surely a common source. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Gilgamesh, the first people could die in accidents or from violence but not from old age, so they had no natural limit to how long they could live. This meant that eventually the human population became so large that the noise of them disturbed the gods, most of whom therefore decided to get rid of mankind by drowning the lot of them in a world flood. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, one god Ea thought differently and warned one man, Uta-Napishtim to build a boat in which to save himself and family, plus animals of every kind and also craftsmen of every trade so the knowledge of them would be preserved. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Once the flood, which had drowned everyone else, began to recede and Uta-Napishtim and his party found land, he made sacrifice to the gods, who had by then begun to miss the sacrifices that men used to make to them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The gods then relented and let Uta-Napishtim and his party re-establish human society but this time on condition that everyone born from then on must be mortal, so the human population could never again grow too impossibly large.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Epic, the hero, Gilgamesh, centuries later, learns this story from Uta-Napishtim himself, who, since he and his wife were born in the days before the flood, have an unlimited lifespan, although hundreds of years old are still alive and living on an island at the end of the Earth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, much less moral content than the parallel Bible story of Noah, in which the flood is a punishment for Man's sins." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10021" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2437" RevisionGUID="0c03e4dc-4dc1-49d6-a8df-f14b24489b8d" CreationDate="2017-03-09T15:14:31.540" UserId="2807" Text="I can't figure any case of a Greek mythological hero having a son who achieved more fame, glory and &quot;heroic status&quot; than him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Looking the descendency of Perseus, Heracles, Theseus, Jason, Achilles, Odysseus, etc, they all had sons. Some of them were noble and quite heroic, but still they were way far from achieving the feats and fame of their fathers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, is there any case in Greek mythology of a son surpassing or even equaling the fame of his heroic father?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10022" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2437" RevisionGUID="0c03e4dc-4dc1-49d6-a8df-f14b24489b8d" CreationDate="2017-03-09T15:14:31.540" UserId="2807" Text="Did any Greek mythological hero fathered a son who surpassed his fame?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10023" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2437" RevisionGUID="0c03e4dc-4dc1-49d6-a8df-f14b24489b8d" CreationDate="2017-03-09T15:14:31.540" UserId="2807" Text="|greek|family-tree|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10024" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="208" RevisionGUID="9318a804-9169-405b-b43c-1eec8d156778" CreationDate="2017-03-09T15:41:52.423" UserId="2807" Comment="Added 'labyrinth' tag and minor fixes in grammar. Tempted to remove the 'homer' tag." Text="[Wikipedia][1] reads:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He also created the Labyrinth on Crete, in which the Minotaur (part man, part bull) was kept.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However what was the main purpose of the Labyrinth being built? Was it just for keeping a bull?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I guess this has been mentioned by Homer. Or maybe there are some other stories describing it?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is another [cite][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The myth of the Minotaur tells that Theseus, a prince from Athens, sailed to Crete, where he was forced to fight a terrible creature called the Minotaur. The Minotaur was a half man, half bull, and was kept in the Labyrinth - a building like a maze - by the king Minos, the ruler of Crete.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This could indicate that the Labyrinth was used as some kind of fight arena, so people could get punished there?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And in [here][3] it's suggested that the Labyrinth could be in fact the Palace of Knossos. Therefore the purpose could be just residential.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore, did the purpose of the Labyrinth have any other meaning than just housing the Minotaur?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daedalus#The_Labyrinth&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knossos#Legends_of_Knossos&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/233/51" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10025" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="208" RevisionGUID="9318a804-9169-405b-b43c-1eec8d156778" CreationDate="2017-03-09T15:41:52.423" UserId="2807" Comment="Added 'labyrinth' tag and minor fixes in grammar. Tempted to remove the 'homer' tag." Text="|greek|homer|labyrinth|daedalus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10026" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="208" RevisionGUID="9318a804-9169-405b-b43c-1eec8d156778" CreationDate="2017-03-09T15:41:52.423" Comment="Proposed by 2807 approved by 2774, 51 edit id of 426" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10027" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2438" RevisionGUID="778b69e2-697e-4233-a0c8-53ace367e467" CreationDate="2017-03-09T17:34:24.797" UserId="42" Text="If you only look at the greatest Greek heroes, yes, of course their offspring don't surpass them. They are the *greatest* heroes, after all. I mean, Telemachus is no slouch, but your comparing him to *Odysseus*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But the greatest heroes do have fathers as well:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Peleus was king of the Myrmidons, a member of the Argonauts, and participant in the hunt for the Calydonian Boar. He overcame the sea nymph Thetis with the help of a god, to gain her as his wife, and it was at his wedding feast that Eris would interrupt with her famed apple, starting a chain of events that would lead to the Trojan War. He was surpassed by his son, Achilles.&#xD;&#xA; - Aegeus was the conqueror and founder of Athens. He is the namesake of the Aegean Sea. He was surpassed by his son, Theseus.&#xD;&#xA; - Laërtes was king of the Cephallenians, a member of the Argonauts, and participant in the hunt for the Calydonian Boar. He was surpassed by his son, Odysseus.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10028" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2439" RevisionGUID="beb28e20-c429-4cd9-a551-d03693e4227f" CreationDate="2017-03-09T17:40:14.247" UserId="3530" Text="Achilles son of Peleus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Peleus was a minor hero and companion of Hercules in various of his adventures, and was also with Jason as an Argonaut. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;His son Achilles was more famous as the leading warrior of the Trojan War." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10029" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2437" RevisionGUID="0677bfa0-bbf8-4e76-8ee6-fb7a66aec0a1" CreationDate="2017-03-09T17:54:27.777" UserId="2807" Comment="Improved title a bit" Text="Did any Greek mythological hero fathered a son who surpassed him in fame?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10030" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2438" RevisionGUID="7598d51c-8058-4928-baae-d42b52104908" CreationDate="2017-03-09T17:56:35.160" UserId="2892" Comment="I initially went in to correct a minor typo, but it is a very good answer, so I ended up adding links to the heroic progenitors, as they may not be well know to some readers" Text="If you only look at the greatest Greek heroes, yes, of course their offspring don't surpass them. They are the *greatest* heroes, after all. I mean, Telemachus is no slouch, but you're comparing him to *Odysseus*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The greatest heroes do have heroic fathers as well:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Peleus][1] was king of the Myrmidons, a member of the Argonauts, and participant in the hunt for the Calydonian Boar. He overcame the sea nymph Thetis with the help of a god, to gain her as his wife, and it was at his wedding feast that Eris would interrupt with her famed apple, starting a chain of events that would lead to the Trojan War. He was surpassed by his son, Achilles.&#xD;&#xA; - [Aegeus][2] was the conqueror and founder of Athens. He is the namesake of the Aegean Sea. He was surpassed by his son, Theseus.&#xD;&#xA; - [Laërtes][3] was king of the Cephallenians, a member of the Argonauts, and participant in the hunt for the Calydonian Boar. He was surpassed by his son, Odysseus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peleus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegeus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laertes" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10031" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2440" RevisionGUID="8258bc56-ec0b-495a-990a-01bf311be75d" CreationDate="2017-03-09T18:26:47.310" UserId="2892" Text="One of my favorite stories is the Ovid version of [Philomel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philomela).  *(She pre-figures the Tarantino heroines in many ways. Note that the [elements of other myths](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philomela#Elements_borrowed_from_other_myths_and_stories) section of Wikipedia omits the most direct reference, which is, of course, Atreus' feast for his brother [Thyestes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyestes#Myth);)*  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Philomel is famously reprised in a degraded form in an early play of Shakespeare, widely regarded as his worst *(although it also contains elements of his greatest,)* [Titus Andronicus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus_Andronicus). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like Philomel, Lavinia is deprived of words *(and her hands as well, which is partly why the story is degraded--it was likely necessary for Shakespeare as a plot device but results in a scene that is generally received by audiences as pathetic to the point of absurdity, and thus comes across as morbidly comic, evoking laughs at inappropriate moments, which is occurs not infrequently in this most over-the-top of the Bard's plays.)*  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nevertheless, Lavinia is able to reveal the perpetrators, and their progenitor may be fed her own offspring.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question, however, does not relate to adaptations of [Procne](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procne), as the story of Philomel is sometimes referred, but instead to the use of code and ciphers in myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**What are other examples of codes and ciphers in mythology?** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10032" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2440" RevisionGUID="8258bc56-ec0b-495a-990a-01bf311be75d" CreationDate="2017-03-09T18:26:47.310" UserId="2892" Text="Uses of encoding and ciphers in Mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10033" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2440" RevisionGUID="8258bc56-ec0b-495a-990a-01bf311be75d" CreationDate="2017-03-09T18:26:47.310" UserId="2892" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10035" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2437" RevisionGUID="d0dc7cef-3e64-48cd-98c1-4a98f5b500c5" CreationDate="2017-03-09T19:14:07.520" UserId="3531" Comment="minor grammar improvements" Text="I can't think of any case of a Greek mythological hero having a son who achieved more fame, glory and &quot;heroic status&quot; than him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Looking the descendency of Perseus, Heracles, Theseus, Jason, Achilles, Odysseus, etc, they all had sons. Some of them were noble and quite heroic, but still they were way far from achieving the feats and fame of their fathers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, is there any case in Greek mythology of a son surpassing or even equaling the fame of his heroic father?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10036" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2437" RevisionGUID="d0dc7cef-3e64-48cd-98c1-4a98f5b500c5" CreationDate="2017-03-09T19:14:07.520" UserId="3531" Comment="minor grammar improvements" Text="Did any Greek mythological hero father a son who surpassed him in fame?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10037" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2437" RevisionGUID="d0dc7cef-3e64-48cd-98c1-4a98f5b500c5" CreationDate="2017-03-09T19:14:07.520" Comment="Proposed by 3531 approved by 2807 edit id of 427" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10038" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2441" RevisionGUID="f19772d0-0f0b-4494-b2f8-79409835fc5d" CreationDate="2017-03-09T19:20:21.130" UserId="2892" Text="I am referring to [Zeno of Elia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno_of_Elea) (c.490 –c.430 BCE) and his famous [Dichotomy Paradox](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno%27s_paradoxes#Dichotomy_paradox). This paradox has to do with infinite divisions based on 1/2. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems to be that the conception of the Hydra as growing two heads for every one that is severed occurs only after Zeno.  (This is a reverse of his paradox, in the form of infinite expansion through doubling.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This new conception of the hydra is attributed to Euripides (c.480 – c.406 BCE).  Although I am having trouble locating the exact passage at the moment, it does re-occur some centuries later with [Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 2. 77 - 80](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus2.html).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Is there any evidence that Zeno influenced this new conception of the Hydra, by suggesting the underlying mathematics of the narrative gimmick?**" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10039" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2441" RevisionGUID="f19772d0-0f0b-4494-b2f8-79409835fc5d" CreationDate="2017-03-09T19:20:21.130" UserId="2892" Text="Zeno's influence on the conception of the Hydra?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10040" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2441" RevisionGUID="f19772d0-0f0b-4494-b2f8-79409835fc5d" CreationDate="2017-03-09T19:20:21.130" UserId="2892" Text="|greek|history|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10041" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2426" RevisionGUID="8cca3608-dab2-4b96-88e8-3a2e5d995cd4" CreationDate="2017-03-09T19:43:05.990" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 65 characters in body" Text="I am aware that some mythologies/religions include species apart from humans and gods (e.g. Islam and Norse mythology). However, are there any stories which are  written about them? My definition for &quot;stories&quot; for this questions, will be stories that are about individuals or groups seen as the protagonists, or heroes, of the stories.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Please note that I am *not* looking for origin stories of a particular species, nor stories about people who are (semi-)divine, like avatars of Hinduism  or demigods of Greco-Roman mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10042" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2442" RevisionGUID="26e7d024-25e7-4274-9a82-8b931a058041" CreationDate="2017-03-09T19:50:46.107" UserId="2892" Text="You mention nymphs, so I'll direct you to [Daphne](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daphne), who is the heroine of her story.  (I suspect Ovid's [Metamorphosis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphoses) will be fertile ground for you in your search.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am also going to propose [John Gardner](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gardner_(American_writer))'s [Grendel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grendel_(novel)), which may not be strictly canonical, but is certainly worthwhile and a part of the overall Beowulf body of literature. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10043" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2441" RevisionGUID="cd89a488-baab-4895-ba06-566b11d192bf" CreationDate="2017-03-09T20:04:54.247" UserId="2892" Comment="added 137 characters in body" Text="I am referring to [Zeno of Elia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno_of_Elea) (c.490 –c.430 BCE) and his famous [Dichotomy Paradox](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno%27s_paradoxes#Dichotomy_paradox). This paradox has to do with infinite divisions based on 1/2. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems to be that the conception of the Hydra as growing two heads for every one that is severed occurs only after Zeno.  (This is a reverse of his paradox, in the form of infinite expansion through doubling.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This new conception of the Hydra is attributed to Euripides (c.480 – c.406 BCE).  Although I am having trouble locating the exact passage at the moment, it does re-occur some centuries later with [Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 2. 77 - 80](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus2.html).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Is there any evidence that Zeno influenced this new conception of the Hydra, by suggesting the underlying mathematics of the narrative gimmick?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I suspect not, but if there is an example of this conception of the Hydra before the fifth century, it would disprove the connection." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10044" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2443" RevisionGUID="bda88c63-ace8-433e-8017-bbea1758b69d" CreationDate="2017-03-09T20:11:55.457" UserId="57" Text="The story of Bellerephon, as told by Homer in Book VI of the Iliad, may be of interest: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There is a city in the heart of Argos, pasture land of horses, called Ephyra, where Sisyphus lived, who was the craftiest of all mankind. He was the son of Aeolus, and had a son named Glaucus, who was father to Bellerophon, whom heaven endowed with the most surpassing comeliness and beauty. But Proetus devised his ruin, and being stronger than he, drove him from the land of the Argives, over which Jove had made him ruler. For Antea, wife of Proetus, lusted after him, and would have had him lie with her in secret; but Bellerophon was an honourable man and would not, so she told lies about him to Proteus. 'Proetus,' said she, 'kill Bellerophon or die, for he would have had converse with me against my will.' The king was angered, but shrank from killing Bellerophon, so he sent him to Lycia with lying letters of introduction, written on a folded tablet, and containing much ill against the bearer. He bade Bellerophon show these letters to his father-in-law, to the end that he might thus perish; Bellerophon therefore went to Lycia, and the gods convoyed him safely. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;When he reached the river Xanthus, which is in Lycia, the king received him with all goodwill, feasted him nine days, and killed nine heifers in his honour, but when rosy-fingered morning appeared upon the tenth day, he questioned him and desired to see the letter from his son-in-law Proetus. When he had received the wicked letter he first commanded Bellerophon to kill that savage monster, the Chimaera, who was not a human being, but a goddess, for she had the head of a lion and the tail of a serpent, while her body was that of a goat, and she breathed forth flames of fire; but Bellerophon slew her, for he was guided by signs from heaven. He next fought the far-famed Solymi, and this, he said, was the hardest of all his battles. Thirdly, he killed the Amazons, women who were the peers of men, and as he was returning thence the king devised yet another plan for his destruction; he picked the bravest warriors in all Lycia, and placed them in ambuscade, but not a man ever came back, for Bellerophon killed every one of them. Then the king knew that he must be the valiant offspring of a god, so he kept him in Lycia, gave him his daughter in marriage, and made him of equal honour in the kingdom with himself; and the Lycians gave him a piece of land, the best in all the country, fair with vineyards and tilled fields, to have and to hold. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;The Iliad, by Homer. Translated by Samuel Butler.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It could be argued that the &quot;wicked letter&quot; was simply sealed and not encoded. However, Homer uses &quot;σήματα λυγρά&quot;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; to describe it, a phrase that points to pictorial tokens and perhaps allows us to interpret the letter as an encrypted one. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interestingly, this story the only mention of writing in the Iliad, and the source of the phrase &quot;bellerophonic letter&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; see http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=sh%2Fmata&amp;la=greek&amp;can=sh%2Fmata0&amp;prior=ge#lexicon&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10045" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2443" RevisionGUID="83210730-47d0-44fb-9a30-537cfc5452d1" CreationDate="2017-03-09T20:29:59.517" UserId="57" Comment="added 3 characters in body" Text="The story of Bellerephon, as told by Homer in Book VI of the Iliad, may be of interest: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There is a city in the heart of Argos, pasture land of horses, called Ephyra, where Sisyphus lived, who was the craftiest of all mankind. He was the son of Aeolus, and had a son named Glaucus, who was father to Bellerophon, whom heaven endowed with the most surpassing comeliness and beauty. But Proetus devised his ruin, and being stronger than he, drove him from the land of the Argives, over which Jove had made him ruler. For Antea, wife of Proetus, lusted after him, and would have had him lie with her in secret; but Bellerophon was an honourable man and would not, so she told lies about him to Proteus. 'Proetus,' said she, 'kill Bellerophon or die, for he would have had converse with me against my will.' The king was angered, but shrank from killing Bellerophon, so he sent him to Lycia with lying letters of introduction, written on a folded tablet, and containing much ill against the bearer. He bade Bellerophon show these letters to his father-in-law, to the end that he might thus perish; Bellerophon therefore went to Lycia, and the gods convoyed him safely. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;When he reached the river Xanthus, which is in Lycia, the king received him with all goodwill, feasted him nine days, and killed nine heifers in his honour, but when rosy-fingered morning appeared upon the tenth day, he questioned him and desired to see the letter from his son-in-law Proetus. When he had received the wicked letter he first commanded Bellerophon to kill that savage monster, the Chimaera, who was not a human being, but a goddess, for she had the head of a lion and the tail of a serpent, while her body was that of a goat, and she breathed forth flames of fire; but Bellerophon slew her, for he was guided by signs from heaven. He next fought the far-famed Solymi, and this, he said, was the hardest of all his battles. Thirdly, he killed the Amazons, women who were the peers of men, and as he was returning thence the king devised yet another plan for his destruction; he picked the bravest warriors in all Lycia, and placed them in ambuscade, but not a man ever came back, for Bellerophon killed every one of them. Then the king knew that he must be the valiant offspring of a god, so he kept him in Lycia, gave him his daughter in marriage, and made him of equal honour in the kingdom with himself; and the Lycians gave him a piece of land, the best in all the country, fair with vineyards and tilled fields, to have and to hold. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;The Iliad, by Homer. Translated by Samuel Butler.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It could be argued that the &quot;wicked letter&quot; was simply sealed and not encoded. However, Homer uses &quot;σήματα λυγρά&quot;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; to describe it, a phrase that points to pictorial tokens and perhaps allows us to interpret the letter as an encrypted one. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interestingly, this story is the only mention of writing in the Iliad, and the source of the phrase &quot;bellerophonic letter&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; see http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=sh%2Fmata&amp;la=greek&amp;can=sh%2Fmata0&amp;prior=ge#lexicon&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10048" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2442" RevisionGUID="6ce34504-da83-4bea-a0bb-97032973b478" CreationDate="2017-03-09T22:23:53.613" UserId="2892" Comment="added 143 characters in body" Text="You mention nymphs, so I'll direct you to [Daphne](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daphne), who is the [heroine of her story](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Translation:Metamorphoses/Daphne_and_Apollo). It may start with Apollo, but he is distinctly the antagonist, thus, while the story *involves* him, it is *about* her. (I suspect Ovid's [Metamorphosis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphoses) will be fertile ground for you in your search.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am also going to propose [John Gardner](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gardner_(American_writer))'s [Grendel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grendel_(novel)), which may not be strictly canonical, but is certainly worthwhile and a part of the overall Beowulf body of literature. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Also, technically, Sun Wukong is neither human nor a god, but a monkey born from a magical stone who gains power through Taoist training.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10049" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2444" RevisionGUID="0bc8f6cd-8e2d-4e46-9739-4192c6112244" CreationDate="2017-03-09T23:01:26.850" UserId="292" Text="We had this question in a [slightly different form][1] a while ago, and I'm going to give the same answer I did then - that it goes back to the Aesir - Vanir war and the settlement between the two sides. One deity from each side gets half the dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is speculation, and I'm going to go further and say that Freyja goes first because of her particular power. Ursula Dronke suggested, in her book on the poems of the *Poetic Edda*, that the reason neither side won that war is that Odin's power to kill and Freyja's power to renew life meant a permanent standoff. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Dronke's book is [available from Scribd][2], by the way, if you want to check it out.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since Freyja can bring the dead back (see [Sorla thattr][3] for an example of her using this power) I figure she gets first pick of the dead. This would tie in with her being a death goddess, or a goddess of the gates of life and death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/10/how-was-it-decided-which-warriors-would-go-to-f%C3%B3lkvangr-and-which-to-valhalla/1821#1821&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.scribd.com/document/17115248/Elder-Edda-Vsp-Vkv-Ls-Skm-Rg-Ursula-Dronke-vol-2-1997&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%B6rla_%C3%BE%C3%A1ttr" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10050" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2445" RevisionGUID="da897e34-d1fd-4625-9685-d4567e5a2151" CreationDate="2017-03-09T23:06:41.920" UserId="3534" Text="If you consider the gods to be heroes too, then I'd say Zeus surpassed his father, [Kronos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10054" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2446" RevisionGUID="b85c7e38-3649-4694-a797-4b74e5fc51a4" CreationDate="2017-03-10T08:19:43.097" UserId="57" Text="In an attempt to distract Isis from learning his [true name][1], Ra reveals that he takes different forms during the day:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I am the Creator of living flame. I am Khepera in the morning, Ra at noontide, and Atmu in the evening.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;&quot;The name of Ra&quot;, *Ancient Egyptian Legends*, by M. A. Murray.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How are the Khepera and Atmu forms different than the central Ra one? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_name" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10055" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2446" RevisionGUID="b85c7e38-3649-4694-a797-4b74e5fc51a4" CreationDate="2017-03-10T08:19:43.097" UserId="57" Text="How are Ra's forms different from each other?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10056" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2446" RevisionGUID="b85c7e38-3649-4694-a797-4b74e5fc51a4" CreationDate="2017-03-10T08:19:43.097" UserId="57" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10057" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2446" RevisionGUID="87eb80dc-6f00-46ed-89f6-63477b5166d7" CreationDate="2017-03-10T09:10:57.310" UserId="57" Comment="added 45 characters in body; edited title" Text="In an attempt to distract Isis from learning his [true name][1], Ra reveals that he takes different forms during the day:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I am the Creator of living flame. I am Khepera in the morning, Ra at noontide, and Atmu in the evening.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;&quot;The name of Ra&quot;, *Ancient Egyptian Legends*, by M. A. Murray.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why did Ra take different forms during the day? How are the Khepera and Atmu forms different than the central one? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_name" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10058" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2446" RevisionGUID="87eb80dc-6f00-46ed-89f6-63477b5166d7" CreationDate="2017-03-10T09:10:57.310" UserId="57" Comment="added 45 characters in body; edited title" Text="How are Ra's three forms different from each other?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10059" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2034" RevisionGUID="d19a5efd-222f-47d0-9f3d-ccf30824a3d6" CreationDate="2017-03-10T09:42:50.020" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://storage7.static.itmages.ru/ with https://storage7.static.itmages.ru/" Text="In Indo-European mythology, particular, in Slavic, Baltic and Germanic mythologies there is a so-called World Tree, more precisely, World Oak that plays a sacred role and connects the underworld to heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is mentioned in Pushkin's poem [&quot;Ruslan and Ludmila&quot;][1] which starts &quot;At Lukomorie there is an oak green, a golden chain is on that oak...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I looked up what Lukomorie is. It literally means &quot;a sea arc, bow&quot;. Russian Wikipedia describes it as &quot;in Slavic mythology, a holy place at the edge of universe, where the World Tree grows&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [The Tale of Igor's Campaign][2] describing Prince Igor's campaign of 1185 uses this word to refer to the area near the North-Western shore of the Azov sea, as do other sources. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is a map that labels the tribe occupying the region as &quot;Lukomorie Polovtsi&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A Google map of the area indeed shows bow-like formations:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But what is more interesting, is where the sea reached formerly. In fact, formerly the sea occupied the arc-shaped gulf (now called Milk Liman) reaching beyond the modern city of Melitopol.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][5]][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lets look even closer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][6]][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a place that was formerly situated at the very end of the bow-shaped gulf, at the very shore of the sea.&#xD;&#xA;The bright spot on the photo is the [archeological site Kamennaya Mogila][7]. The place was venerated as a holy site at least from the 20th century BC to 12th century AD (possibly, even 17th century), well after the adoption of Christianity by the Kievan Rus. Some researchers (Rossokha) think it was venerated since the era of Proto-Indo-European unity, namely, [Sredny Stog culture][8]. This makes it the longest continuously venerated pagan holy site. The innards of the site are inscribed with a non-deciphered ancient language.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][9]][9]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The site is located at the place of ancient estuary of the river, called by Herodotus as Γέρρος, which a Scythian name, that comes from a Sanskrit-related language where it was called [Gorasa][10] which literally means &quot;milk&quot;, and even in Modern Russian it is called &quot;Milk river&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, I wonder, how probable it is that the so-called World Oak was originally located at this place.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][11]][11]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://russian-crafts.com/tales/rus_lud.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tale_of_Igor%27s_Campaign&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/KqHMW.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/HCkqS.png&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://storage7.static.itmages.ru/i/16/1012/h_1476248341_4164123_30eef8c695.png&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/NH0bE.png&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamyana_Mohyla&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sredny_Stog_culture&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/u7VPs.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=gorasa&amp;direction=SE&amp;script=HK&amp;link=yes&amp;beginning=&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://discover-ukraine.info/uploads/i/i/4f282d36bdb9c6.87610163.185.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10060" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2416" RevisionGUID="f79d26e9-688c-4597-af54-d0ccf7340c98" CreationDate="2017-03-10T14:05:32.983" UserId="2892" Comment="edited title" Text="Why does Hercules light himself on fire?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10061" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2447" RevisionGUID="9ae5940d-a834-4538-bc0c-f45108873ea8" CreationDate="2017-03-10T14:14:08.853" UserId="2892" Text="Per my previous question, we've established that Heracles' had himself burned alive because of the pain of poison.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The idea that the poison will kill him however, is not universal.  The Heracles of [the Alcestis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcestis_(play)) has defeated death, and there is the implication the pain of the poison will be unending since, having defeated death, he cannot die.  (The [Alcestis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcestis) story is certainly older than the play, and it is possible Euripides was inspired to write it to correct the Sophoclean idea that Heracles' was subject to death.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So there is deeper meaning in this act of self-immolation. The literal answer of shortening the length of his suffering is unsatisfactory because Heracles is defied after his &quot;death&quot; and joins the ranks of the Olympians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10062" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2447" RevisionGUID="9ae5940d-a834-4538-bc0c-f45108873ea8" CreationDate="2017-03-10T14:14:08.853" UserId="2892" Text="What is the meaning of Heracles' self-immolation?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10063" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2447" RevisionGUID="9ae5940d-a834-4538-bc0c-f45108873ea8" CreationDate="2017-03-10T14:14:08.853" UserId="2892" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10067" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2447" RevisionGUID="48582e44-e589-4295-b778-77291288a9dc" CreationDate="2017-03-10T14:48:53.480" UserId="57" Comment="added 57 characters in body; edited tags" Text="Per my [previous question][1], we've established that Heracles' had himself burned alive because of the pain of poison.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The idea that the poison will kill him, however, is not universal.  The Heracles of the [Alcestis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcestis_(play)) has defeated death, and there is the implication the pain of the poison will be unending since, having defeated death, he cannot die. The [Alcestis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcestis) story is certainly older than the play, and it is possible Euripides was inspired to write it to correct the Sophoclean idea that Heracles' was subject to death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So there is a deeper meaning in this act of self-immolation. The literal answer of shortening the length of his suffering is unsatisfactory because Heracles is deified after his &quot;death&quot; and joins the ranks of the Olympians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/2416/57" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10068" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2447" RevisionGUID="48582e44-e589-4295-b778-77291288a9dc" CreationDate="2017-03-10T14:48:53.480" UserId="57" Comment="added 57 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|greek|hercules|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10069" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2449" RevisionGUID="de91ef8c-fe76-45b3-aba1-9a67a33da2f2" CreationDate="2017-03-10T17:53:09.330" UserId="3543" Text="I would like to add a point. Surely, as answered by Malay, there are many references to different forms of cows playing a major role in various pastimes. However, along with those references and the general quintessential importance of cow-products in India, *Gau-mata* is also revered because - &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. She has special importance in the Hindu scriptures. For example, *Gau-hatya* (killing a cow) is one of the most serious offences you can possibly commit, and it is said that &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *go-ange yata* *loma tata sahasra vatsara*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; *go-vadhi raurava-madhye pace nirantar*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cow killers and cow eaters are condemned to rot in hell for as many&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thousands of years as there are for each hair on the body of every cow&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they eat from.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many other similar quotations from the canonical Hindu texts that are well documented [here](https://goo.gl/3hSlcr)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. Krishna is particularly attached to cows. He has many names which describe Him as a protector of cows, like *Gopal*, *Govind* etc. In one of the more popular mantras for Him, it is said - &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *namo brahmaṇya-devāya go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; *jagad-dhitāya kṛṣṇāya govindāya namo namaḥ*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;My Lord, You are the well-wisher of the cows and the brāhmaṇas, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; You are the well-wisher of the entire human society and world.&quot; (Viṣṇu&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Purāṇa 1.19.65)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So apart from the various references, it can be seen that scriptural injunction (which is an important independent entity in itself) and Krishna's special spot for them makes cows revered in India, especially from a Hindu perspective." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10071" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2449" RevisionGUID="a2259696-4799-4201-ad59-7fb0f3e49339" CreationDate="2017-03-10T19:20:50.973" UserId="3543" Comment="clarification" Text="I would like to add a point. Surely, as answered by Malay, there are many references to different forms of cows playing a major role in various pastimes. However, along with those references and the general quintessential importance of cow-products in India, *Gau-mata* is also revered because - &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. She has special importance in the Hindu scriptures. For example, *Gau-hatya* (killing a cow) is one of the most serious offences you can possibly commit, and it is said that &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *go-ange yata* *loma tata sahasra vatsara*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; *go-vadhi raurava-madhye pace nirantar*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cow killers and cow eaters are condemned to rot in hell for as many&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thousands of years as there are for each hair on the body of every cow&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they eat from.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many other similar quotations from the canonical Hindu texts that are well documented [here](https://goo.gl/3hSlcr)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. Krishna is particularly attached to cows. He has many names which describe Him as a protector of cows, like *Gopal*, *Govind* etc. In one of the more popular mantras for Him, it is said - &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *namo brahmaṇya-devāya go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; *jagad-dhitāya kṛṣṇāya govindāya namo namaḥ*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;My Lord, You are the well-wisher of the cows and the brāhmaṇas, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; You are the well-wisher of the entire human society and world.&quot; (Viṣṇu&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Purāṇa 1.19.65)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So apart from the various references, it can be seen that scriptural injunction (which is an important independent entity in itself) and Krishna's special spot for them makes cows revered in India, especially from a Hindu perspective.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;EDIT: All italicized instances of `go`/`gau` here are Sanskrit for cow (grammar rules dictate which of the two would be used)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10073" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2451" RevisionGUID="94db4d16-ef42-42ff-8fb8-1069fff1640a" CreationDate="2017-03-10T20:27:21.557" UserId="2892" Text="Regarding Ancient Greek, I'm not going to present different passages at this moment because anyone can grab a copies of the [Pope](https://www.gutenberg.org/files/6130/6130-h/6130-h.html#toc5), [Lattimore](http://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/I/bo5811519.html), [Fitzgerald](https://books.google.com/books?id=OT9pj8chUbQC&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;dq=Robert+Fitzgerald#v=onepage&amp;q=Robert%20Fitzgerald&amp;f=false) and [Fagles](https://books.google.com/books?id=CzaeCifjTf4C&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;dq=fagles+iliad&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjxqoHtz8zSAhUJ4iYKHbi3APcQ6wEIHTAA#v=onepage&amp;q=fagles%20iliad&amp;f=false) Iliads and immediately see that translations vary widely. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I will present a line from Euripides to give an idea of why this is the case:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; λύπης τι προσδεῖς ἢ φιλεῖς οὕτω φάος;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Translated by E.P Coleridge in 1938 as: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Do you need a further taste of grief, or do you cling so fast to life?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Perseus](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0102%3Acard%3D60) &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Those with a little Greek may notice that &quot;[bios](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=bi%2Fos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=bi%2Fos0#lexicon)&quot;, a common word for life from which we derive biology, is not present, nor is &quot;[zoe](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=zwh%2F&amp;la=greek&amp;can=zwh%2F0&amp;prior=bi/os#lexicon)&quot; which is another common word for life, from which we derive zoology. Instead, Euripides uses the more poetic &quot;[phaos](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=fa%2Fos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=fa%2Fos0)&quot; which literally means light, and only euphemistically means life, although this euphemism is widely used.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Neither is the literal word for cling present, but &quot;[phileis](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=filei%3Ds&amp;la=greek)&quot; meaning love.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Coleridge's translation is fine, but as a devotee of Lattimore and a sometimes dramaturge, I'd have to re-translate to make it more understandable as: &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1: &quot;Have you had your fill of suffering, or do still cling fast to the light?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;or even:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2: &quot;Do you still have need of suffering! Are you so in love with the light?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;because [ἢ](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=h%29%5C&amp;la=greek&amp;can=h%29%5C1&amp;prior=prosdei=s&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0101:card=60&amp;i=2#lexicon) could be &quot;or&quot; or an exclamation of disapproval. It could also mean something like &quot;verily&quot;, and may be used in the interrogative:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;3: &quot;Surely you can't be so bound up in grief that you still cling to life?&quot; &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*In this last version I drop the actual vocabulary, &quot;love&quot; and &quot;light&quot;, to make it more accessible.*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;This was a line picked at random, but even between my three translations the meaning varies:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;1: *&quot;Are you ready to die, or still clinging to life?&quot;* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;2: *&quot;Are you so in love with life that you're willing to suffer even more?&quot;*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;3: &quot;Are you a friggin' masochist?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;Not a big deal either way, it's still generally means the same thing, and 2&amp;3 are nearly identical, but over the course of a text, the variance can be great, and oppositional meanings can arise. In Greek Drama in particular, wordplay is pervasive, and definitely influences interpretation.  (I've known at least one biblical scholar who turned away from Greek because it opened up too many questions regarding the range of possible meanings.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Certain topics can be treated with a single, even inferior, translation.  (Theoi, and even Perseus', translations are generally sub-optimal because they depend on translation in the public domain, as opposed to the most up-to-date or accurate translations.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other subjects require analysis of the source text, and failing that, multiple translations. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10074" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2447" RevisionGUID="70654c06-7205-44a2-81d6-884b9b3b79f4" CreationDate="2017-03-10T20:59:38.033" UserId="201" Comment="fixed formatting to create an actual question" Text="Per my [previous question][1], we've established that Heracles' had himself burned alive because of the pain of poison.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The idea that the poison will kill him, however, is not universal.  The Heracles of the [Alcestis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcestis_(play)) has defeated death, and there is the implication the pain of the poison will be unending since, having defeated death, he cannot die. The [Alcestis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcestis) story is certainly older than the play, and it is possible Euripides was inspired to write it to correct the Sophoclean idea that Heracles' was subject to death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So is there a deeper meaning in this act of self-immolation? The literal answer of &quot;shortening the length of his suffering&quot; is unsatisfactory because Heracles is deified after his &quot;death&quot; and joins the ranks of the Olympians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/2416/57" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10075" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2447" RevisionGUID="70654c06-7205-44a2-81d6-884b9b3b79f4" CreationDate="2017-03-10T20:59:38.033" Comment="Proposed by 201 approved by 2892 edit id of 428" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10076" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2451" RevisionGUID="c0f4875a-3ea4-4a26-827a-9e3ecc8b6a44" CreationDate="2017-03-10T21:03:59.600" UserId="2892" Comment="added 273 characters in body" Text="Regarding Ancient Greek, I'm not going to present different passages at this moment because anyone can grab a copies of the [Pope](https://www.gutenberg.org/files/6130/6130-h/6130-h.html#toc5), [Lattimore](http://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/I/bo5811519.html), [Fitzgerald](https://books.google.com/books?id=OT9pj8chUbQC&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;dq=Robert+Fitzgerald#v=onepage&amp;q=Robert%20Fitzgerald&amp;f=false) and [Fagles](https://books.google.com/books?id=CzaeCifjTf4C&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;dq=fagles+iliad&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjxqoHtz8zSAhUJ4iYKHbi3APcQ6wEIHTAA#v=onepage&amp;q=fagles%20iliad&amp;f=false) Iliads and immediately see that translations vary widely. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I will present a line from Euripides to give an idea of why this is the case:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; λύπης τι προσδεῖς ἢ φιλεῖς οὕτω φάος;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Translated by E.P Coleridge in 1938 as: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Do you need a further taste of grief, or do you cling so fast to life?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Perseus](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0102%3Acard%3D60) &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Those with a little Greek may notice that &quot;[bios](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=bi%2Fos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=bi%2Fos0#lexicon)&quot;, a common word for life from which we derive biology, is not present, nor is &quot;[zoe](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=zwh%2F&amp;la=greek&amp;can=zwh%2F0&amp;prior=bi/os#lexicon)&quot; which is another common word for life, from which we derive zoology. Instead, Euripides uses the more poetic &quot;[phaos](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=fa%2Fos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=fa%2Fos0)&quot; which literally means light, and only euphemistically means life, although this euphemism is widely used.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Neither is the literal word for cling present, but &quot;[phileis](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=filei%3Ds&amp;la=greek)&quot; meaning love.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Coleridge's translation is problematic, because the two phrases are actually in conflict!  He unnecessarily drops vocabulary, ostensibly to make the meaning clear to those with little abstract thinking. (i.e. can't determine that light is a metaphor for life.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a devotee of Lattimore, whose precision, imo, is still unmatched, and a sometimes dramaturge, I'd be forced to re-translate to make the line comprehensible: &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1: &quot;Have you had your fill of suffering, or do still cling fast to the light?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;or even:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2: &quot;Do you still have need of suffering! Are you so in love with the light?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;because [ἢ](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=h%29%5C&amp;la=greek&amp;can=h%29%5C1&amp;prior=prosdei=s&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0101:card=60&amp;i=2#lexicon) could be &quot;or&quot; or an exclamation of disapproval. It could also mean something like &quot;verily&quot;, and may be used in the interrogative:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;3: &quot;Surely you can't be so bound up in grief that you still cling to life?&quot; &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*In this last version I drop the actual vocabulary, &quot;love&quot; and &quot;light&quot;, to make it more accessible.*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;This was a line picked at random, but even between my three translations the meaning varies:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;1: *&quot;Are you ready to die, or still clinging to life?&quot;* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;2: *&quot;Are you so in love with life that you're willing to suffer even more?&quot;*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;3: &quot;Are you a friggin' masochist?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;Not a big deal either way, it's still generally means the same thing, and 2&amp;3 are nearly identical, but over the course of a text, the variance can be great, and oppositional meanings can arise. In Greek Drama in particular, wordplay is pervasive, and definitely influences interpretation.  (I've known at least one biblical scholar who turned away from Greek because it opened up too many questions regarding the range of possible meanings.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Certain topics can be treated with a single, even inferior, translation.  (Theoi, and even Perseus', translations are generally sub-optimal because they depend on translation in the public domain, as opposed to the most up-to-date or accurate translations.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other subjects require analysis of the source text, and failing that, multiple translations. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10077" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2437" RevisionGUID="19f0bee5-614f-4e0e-824c-7540a5b38403" CreationDate="2017-03-10T22:40:24.197" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|myth-identification|family-tree|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10078" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2452" RevisionGUID="520bd2c4-4704-46c7-86c2-29deded038a5" CreationDate="2017-03-11T02:05:13.567" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="**Khepra**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Khepra is the Egyptian god of dawn, morning and sun-rise and is often represented as a dung beetle(or dung beetle-headed). As he Ra always emerged from the dark depths of the Duat everyday as his aspect of Khepra, Khepra is viewed as the god of rebirth and renewal as well, akin to how the scarab lays its eggs in a ball of dung and rolls it to hide in a safe place. From this unlikely substance the Egyptians observed new life emerging, seemingly from the Earth. However, as a god himself, Khepra never really had his own independent cult.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;sources:-  http://www.crystalinks.com/khepri.html&#xD;&#xA;         -  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khepri &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Atmu**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, I am not really sure about this deity since I used to think that he and Ra were the same being(Atum-Ra) and that Atum is not really an aapect of Ra. However, it is said that In the Old Kingdom Atum was linked specifically with the evening sun, while Ra or the closely linked god Khepri were connected with the sun at morning and midday. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;sources:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atum &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Khnum**&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Now, I know that I already told you about Atum but I am still under the impression that Atum and Ra are the same and that one is not an aspect of another, so, if one who shared my same belief, or just wanted to know more, I will share with you about Khnum. Khnum is the Egyptian god of creation, the Nile, and, of corse, evening. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since the annual flooding of the Nile brought with it silt and clay, and its water brought life to its surroundings, he was thought to be the creator of the bodies of human children, which he made at a potter's wheel, from clay, and placed in their mothers' wombs. He later was described as having moulded the other deities, and he had the titles Divine Potter and Lord of created things from himself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for being the god of evening, Khnum is mostly said to be an aspect of Ra. Sometimes, he is even said to be the [Ba of Ra(http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/192/how-does-merging-of-two-gods-actually-work). However, some legends describe him to be a seperate entinity from Ra himhself, who just accompanies and protects Ra during his journey throughout the Duat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;sources:- http://www.artyfactory.com/egyptian_art/egyptian_gods/khnum.htm&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;             -  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khnum&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10079" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2452" RevisionGUID="e75e0f8e-9777-405a-a936-41c74aa440ef" CreationDate="2017-03-11T05:00:55.033" UserDisplayName="user1385" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body" Text="**Khepra**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Khepra is the Egyptian god of dawn, morning and sun-rise and is often represented as a dung beetle(or dung beetle-headed). As he Ra always emerged from the dark depths of the Duat everyday as his aspect of Khepra, Khepra is viewed as the god of rebirth and renewal as well, akin to how the scarab lays its eggs in a ball of dung and rolls it to hide in a safe place. From this unlikely substance the Egyptians observed new life emerging, seemingly from the Earth. However, as a god himself, Khepra never really had his own independent cult.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;sources:-  http://www.crystalinks.com/khepri.html&#xD;&#xA;         -  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khepri &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Atmu**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, I am not really sure about this deity since I used to think that he and Ra were the same being(Atum-Ra) and that Atum is not really an aapect of Ra. However, it is said that In the Old Kingdom Atum was linked specifically with the evening sun, while Ra or the closely linked god Khepri were connected with the sun at morning and midday. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;sources:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atum &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Khnum**&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Now, I know that I already told you about Atum but I am still under the impression that Atum and Ra are the same and that one is not an aspect of another, so, if one who shared my same belief, or just wanted to know more, I will share with you about Khnum. Khnum is the Egyptian god of creation, the Nile, and, of corse, evening. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since the annual flooding of the Nile brought with it silt and clay, and its water brought life to its surroundings, he was thought to be the creator of the bodies of human children, which he made at a potter's wheel, from clay, and placed in their mothers' wombs. He later was described as having moulded the other deities, and he had the titles Divine Potter and Lord of created things from himself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for being the god of evening, Khnum is mostly said to be an aspect of Ra. Sometimes, he is even said to be the [Ba of Ra(http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/192/how-does-merging-of-two-gods-actually-work). However, some legends describe him to be a seperate entinity from Ra himhself, who just accompanies and protects Ra during his journey throughout the Duat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;sources:- http://www.artyfactory.com/egyptian_art/egyptian_gods/khnum.htm&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;           -  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khnum&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10080" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2452" RevisionGUID="d36cef08-b954-4391-8d97-3ad6ace330ce" CreationDate="2017-03-11T10:01:26.030" UserId="57" Comment="formatting" Text="**Khepra**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Khepra is the Egyptian god of dawn, morning and sun-rise and is often represented as a dung beetle (or dung beetle-headed). As he Ra always emerged from the dark depths of the Duat everyday as his aspect of Khepra, Khepra is viewed as the god of rebirth and renewal as well, akin to how the scarab lays its eggs in a ball of dung and rolls it to hide in a safe place. From this unlikely substance the Egyptians observed new life emerging, seemingly from the Earth. However, as a god himself, Khepra never really had his own independent cult.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aources:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-  http://www.crystalinks.com/khepri.html&#xD;&#xA;-  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khepri &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Atmu**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, I am not really sure about this deity since I used to think that he and Ra were the same being(Atum-Ra) and that Atum is not really an aspect of Ra. However, it is said that In the Old Kingdom Atum was linked specifically with the evening sun, while Ra or the closely linked god Khepri were connected with the sun at morning and midday. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;sources: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atum &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Khnum**&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Now, I know that I already told you about Atum but I am still under the impression that Atum and Ra are the same and that one is not an aspect of another, so, if one who shared my same belief, or just wanted to know more, I will share with you about Khnum. Khnum is the Egyptian god of creation, the Nile, and, of corse, evening. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since the annual flooding of the Nile brought with it silt and clay, and its water brought life to its surroundings, he was thought to be the creator of the bodies of human children, which he made at a potter's wheel, from clay, and placed in their mothers' wombs. He later was described as having moulded the other deities, and he had the titles Divine Potter and Lord of created things from himself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for being the god of the evening, Khnum is mostly said to be an aspect of Ra. Sometimes, he is even said to be the [Ba of Ra](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/192/how-does-merging-of-two-gods-actually-work). However, some legends describe him to be a separate entity from Ra himself, who just accompanies and protects Ra during his journey throughout the Duat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;sources:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- http://www.artyfactory.com/egyptian_art/egyptian_gods/khnum.htm&#xD;&#xA;-  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khnum&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10081" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2451" RevisionGUID="6b1e7c7e-deb7-4f2f-832d-ed5eeea381ed" CreationDate="2017-03-11T22:12:54.407" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 3837 characters in body" Text="I've known at least one biblical scholar who turned away from Greek because it raised too many questions regarding interpretation of the texts.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10082" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2453" RevisionGUID="4813c1d9-f87b-4026-aa09-9ca5dc0a42b6" CreationDate="2017-03-11T22:20:11.120" UserId="2892" Text="The reason I ask is because Snorri, widely regarded as a genius of the first rank by those who know his work, was not only a great poet, but a lawyer and historian, and was twice elected lawspeaker.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10083" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2453" RevisionGUID="4813c1d9-f87b-4026-aa09-9ca5dc0a42b6" CreationDate="2017-03-11T22:20:11.120" UserId="2892" Text="Were events from the sagas or eddas ever used a precedents at medieval Althings?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10084" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2453" RevisionGUID="4813c1d9-f87b-4026-aa09-9ca5dc0a42b6" CreationDate="2017-03-11T22:20:11.120" UserId="2892" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10085" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2454" RevisionGUID="e6a44192-4d61-4d07-b07c-06d27372cd1b" CreationDate="2017-03-11T22:37:21.867" UserId="3555" Text="sorry if the question sounds confusing, not sure how to ask my question but I was reading an article about how Western literature is built in part on Greek and Roman mythology, on works like Homer's Odyssey for instance.  Those earliest works go back to a few centuries BCE I believe.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Assuming that's the earliest extant books of mythology in Western literature, are there equivalents for the Eastern literature of the same time or actually earlier?  What would that be, are there specific Indian, Persian, Chinese, Japanese...works that have been equally influential for &quot;Eastern literature&quot;, assuming one can use that generalization?  Do we have to go even earlier, maybe to Egyptian mythology or Sumerian or something else?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you look at the list of greatest books of Western lit, be it listed by some bookstore or website or college course here in US, they usually mention books like The Odyssey or Iliad or Metamorphoses.  I'm basically looking for equivalents for Eastern lit.  Thanks. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10086" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2454" RevisionGUID="e6a44192-4d61-4d07-b07c-06d27372cd1b" CreationDate="2017-03-11T22:37:21.867" UserId="3555" Text="What are the oldest extant influential mythology inspired books (mainly Eastern)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10087" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2454" RevisionGUID="e6a44192-4d61-4d07-b07c-06d27372cd1b" CreationDate="2017-03-11T22:37:21.867" UserId="3555" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10088" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2454" RevisionGUID="8367110b-c870-4fe6-a592-8a031692e2ab" CreationDate="2017-03-11T22:56:39.427" UserId="967" Comment="edited body; edited tags" Text="Sorry if the question sounds confusing, not sure how to ask my question but I was reading an article about how Western literature is built in part on Greek and Roman mythology, on works like Homer's Odyssey for instance.  Those earliest works go back to a few centuries BCE I believe.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Assuming that's the earliest extant books of mythology in Western literature, are there equivalents for the Eastern literature of the same time or actually earlier?  What would that be, are there specific Indian, Persian, Chinese, Japanese...works that have been equally influential for &quot;Eastern literature&quot;, assuming one can use that generalization?  Do we have to go even earlier, maybe to Egyptian mythology or Sumerian or something else?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you look at the list of greatest books of Western lit, be it listed by some bookstore or website or college course here in US, they usually mention books like The Odyssey or Iliad or Metamorphoses.  I'm basically looking for equivalents for Eastern lit.  Thanks. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10089" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2454" RevisionGUID="8367110b-c870-4fe6-a592-8a031692e2ab" CreationDate="2017-03-11T22:56:39.427" UserId="967" Comment="edited body; edited tags" Text="|comparative|source-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10090" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2455" RevisionGUID="061f83e0-3a79-4fd3-a48f-1ffd1c144e24" CreationDate="2017-03-12T00:32:24.867" UserId="2892" Text="In Grettir's Saga, she lives in a remote cave and is described as &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;a woman, great of growth, but shapely withal&quot;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Source: [Perseus](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2003.02.0005%3Achapter%3D62)]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I ask because Grettir's Saga has a fair amount of supernatural components, which I recall as somewhat distinct from the overall body of Icelandic sagas.  Hallmund himself is said to be of remarkable size, and describes his own interaction with the supernatural in his death poem:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;With the giant's kin &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Have I oft raised din &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;To the rock folk &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Have I dealt out stroke; &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Ill things could tell &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;That I smote full well; &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The half-trolls know &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;My baneful blow. &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Small gain in me &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Did the elf-folk see, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Or the evil wights &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Who ride anights.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------&#xD;&#xA;PS: I seem to recall a short verse in the Fox/Palsson translation where Grettir calls himself &quot;punisher of the elves&quot;, but I couldn't located it in the Perseus text.  Is my memory incorrect?  Perhaps I am conflating it with Hallmund's verse: &quot;small gain in me did the elf-folk see&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10091" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2455" RevisionGUID="061f83e0-3a79-4fd3-a48f-1ffd1c144e24" CreationDate="2017-03-12T00:32:24.867" UserId="2892" Text="What type of being might Hallmund's daughter be?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10092" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2455" RevisionGUID="061f83e0-3a79-4fd3-a48f-1ffd1c144e24" CreationDate="2017-03-12T00:32:24.867" UserId="2892" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10093" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1221" RevisionGUID="d866fd90-7b65-41be-9d1a-a68a2b704612" CreationDate="2017-03-12T00:53:29.983" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="10094" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2447" RevisionGUID="95d33ab0-74bb-495e-a9ab-00182fbf59c0" CreationDate="2017-03-12T00:57:50.230" UserId="2892" Comment="added 479 characters in body" Text="Per my [previous question][1], we've established that Heracles' had committed suicide of the pain of poison.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The idea that the poison will kill him, however, is not universal.  The Heracles of the [Alcestis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcestis_(play)) has defeated death, and there is the implication the pain of the poison will be unending since, having defeated death, he cannot die. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; -  There must be a deeper meaning in this act of self-immolation. The literal answer of &quot;shortening the length of his suffering&quot; is unsatisfactory because Heracles is deified after his &quot;death&quot; and joins the ranks of the Olympians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The use of fire is significant.  Otherwise, why not choose a less painful manner of death? (i.e. throwing himself from a cliff, or falling on his sword.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's also notable that the festival of Dionysus was a religious festival.  A play such as the Bacchae, from which many meanings can be derived, particularly in a post0modern context, is, at it core, a commemoration of the dismemberment of Dionysus ([Zagreus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreus)) at the hands of the Titans and his subsequent rebirth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Likewise, the death of Heracles in the context of a religious poem is a commemoration of the death of another half-mortal, half-divine son of Zeus who is subsequently deified.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/2416/57" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10095" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2451" RevisionGUID="3903f971-d906-4f1e-a926-fcba42f82a2a" CreationDate="2017-03-12T01:28:08.983" UserId="2892" Comment="added 803 characters in body" Text="Regarding the variance of Ancient Greek texts, I strongly urge anyone with an interest to compare the [Pope](https://www.gutenberg.org/files/6130/6130-h/6130-h.html#toc5), [Lattimore](http://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/I/bo5811519.html), [Fitzgerald](https://books.google.com/books?id=OT9pj8chUbQC&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;dq=Robert+Fitzgerald#v=onepage&amp;q=Robert%20Fitzgerald&amp;f=false) and [Fagles](https://books.google.com/books?id=CzaeCifjTf4C&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;dq=fagles+iliad&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjxqoHtz8zSAhUJ4iYKHbi3APcQ6wEIHTAA#v=onepage&amp;q=fagles%20iliad&amp;f=false) Iliads.  The variance of translation will be immediate apparent, and although the stories are all the same, details may differ due to the degree of license taken by various authors in translating.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On a personal note, I've known at least one biblical scholar who turned away from Greek because it raised too many questions regarding interpretation of the texts.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10096" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2452" RevisionGUID="8dec6d60-caa0-453b-bd8d-91d195033769" CreationDate="2017-03-12T04:44:59.353" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved  spelling and formatting." Text="**Khepra**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Khepra is the Egyptian god of dawn, morning and sun-rise and is often represented as a dung beetle (or dung beetle-headed). As he Ra always emerged from the dark depths of the Duat everyday as his aspect of Khepra, Khepra is viewed as the god of rebirth and renewal as well, akin to how the scarab lays its eggs in a ball of dung and rolls it to hide in a safe place. From this unlikely substance the Egyptians observed new life emerging, seemingly from the Earth. However, as a god himself, Khepra never really had his own independent cult.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-  [Khepri (Crystalinks)](http://www.crystalinks.com/khepri.html)&#xD;&#xA;-  [Khepri (Wikipedia)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khepri) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Atmu**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, I am not really sure about this deity since I used to think that he and Ra were the same being(Atum-Ra) and that Atum is not really an aspect of Ra. However, it is said that In the Old Kingdom Atum was linked specifically with the evening sun, while Ra or the closely linked god Khepri were connected with the sun at morning and midday. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Atum (Wikipedia)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atum) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Khnum**&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Now, I know that I already told you about Atum but I am still under the impression that Atum and Ra are the same and that one is not an aspect of another, so, if one who shared my same belief, or just wanted to know more, I will share with you about Khnum. Khnum is the Egyptian god of creation, the Nile, and, of corse, evening. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since the annual flooding of the Nile brought with it silt and clay, and its water brought life to its surroundings, he was thought to be the creator of the bodies of human children, which he made at a potter's wheel, from clay, and placed in their mothers' wombs. He later was described as having moulded the other deities, and he had the titles Divine Potter and Lord of created things from himself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for being the god of the evening, Khnum is mostly said to be an aspect of Ra. Sometimes, he is even said to be the [Ba of Ra](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/192/how-does-merging-of-two-gods-actually-work). However, some legends describe him to be a separate entity from Ra himself, who just accompanies and protects Ra during his journey throughout the Duat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Khnum (Arty Factory)](http://www.artyfactory.com/egyptian_art/egyptian_gods/khnum.htm)&#xD;&#xA;- [Khnum (Wikipedia)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khnum)&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10098" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2419" RevisionGUID="08d001fa-ab03-471b-a2a4-b9e5e92a64b9" CreationDate="2017-03-12T06:30:23.277" UserId="57" Comment="added 5409 characters in body" Text="The exact manner of Heracles' death did not appear to be significant to early authors of the myth. In fact, even though both Homer and Hesiod mention the hero eventually finding his place amongst the gods&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;, neither explain how he achieved divinity. It seems the task of constructing a tale explaining Heracles' unique and somewhat bizare&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; status as &quot;hero god&quot; was daunting, even to the likes of Homer and Hesiod. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yet, although Heracles may not have been a protagonist in the works of the epic poets, in the 5th century BCE he was truly a panhellenic hero. The story of his death and deification was now an important one, one that could not remain untold. Audiences were already aware that Herakles had cheated death more than once, and that he would eventually ascent to Olympus. All that remained was an elaborate death scene, one that would be majestic enough to match the status of the hero and perhaps theologically significant enough to explain the transition from man to god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Death by fire may seem like an excruciating way to go, however, it really is the most fitting choice. Before attempting to explain why I'd like to provide some context by quoting parts of the story as told by Sophocles in *Trachiniae*: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Heracles**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now... do you know Zeus' sacred mountain Oeta?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Hyllus**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Yes. I have often sacrificed upon it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Heracles**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; That is the place where you must carry me  &#xD;&#xA;with your own hands, and with what friends you choose.  &#xD;&#xA;There hew the wood of deeply-rooted oaks  &#xD;&#xA;and slash the trunks of wild male olive trees,  &#xD;&#xA;placing my body on a pyre made from them;  &#xD;&#xA;then take a brightly blazing torch of pine  &#xD;&#xA;and light the pyre. And do not moan and weep,  &#xD;&#xA;for if you are my son you will perform this  &#xD;&#xA;without a sigh or tear. If not, my curse,  &#xD;&#xA;even when I am dead, will weigh upon you.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Sophocles, *Women of Trachis*. Translation by Robert M. Torrance&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyllus reluctantly agrees and constructs the pyre, and then places his father on it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Heracles**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; At last you speak well! Now perform this favor&#xD;&#xA;swiftly, my child, and place me on the pyre&#xD;&#xA;before the stinging spasm comes again.&#xD;&#xA;Make haste and lift me. Now I feel release&#xD;&#xA;from troubles, for my final end is here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Hyllus**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Nothing prevents fulfillment of these deeds,&#xD;&#xA;since you command it and compel us, father      &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first question we must ask is if Heracles' death is in accordance with funerary customs of the era, as his deification would be even more inexplicable if his death was somehow sacrilegious. Although cremation had gone out of style in most parts of Greece, it was not entirely abandoned and was still the preferred practice in Athens. Furthermore - and perhaps more importantly - cremation was strongly associated with the Heroic Age. Even if it wasn't the favourite practice of the era, we can't ignore how the tale of  Heracles' death parallels the deaths of the heroes of the Trojan War&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Still, the hero's death is gruesome. He is burned _alive_ after all. However, even though Heracles knows that his suffering will eventually end&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt;, it is established in the tale that the pain from the poison is, for lack of a better word, unbearable. Out of context, his death appears dreadful. Considering the alternative, though, we may even say it's liberating. In some versions of the myth, the poison is said to slowly burn the hero's skin, making his death in the pyre even for fitting (as it doesn't add to the pain, only accelerates the inevitable).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for theological symbolisms, the most obvious one is that of sacrifice. Heracles specifically chooses [Oeta](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Oeta) - a mountain sacred to Zeus - as the scene of his death and provides elaborate instructions for the construction of the pyre. Both the location and the complexity of the pyre favour a ritualistic interpretation, a last offering of Heracles to the glory of Zeus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or perhaps the ritual is one of purification, one that intends to separate (or even liberate) the divine from the corporeal. This wouldn't be a new idea, as the notion of burning mortality away also appears in the story of [Demophoon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demophon_of_Eleusis):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When she had so spoken, she took the child in her fragrant bosom with her divine hands: and his mother was glad in her heart. So the goddess nursed in the palace Demophoon, wise Celeus' goodly son whom well-girded Metaneira bare. And the child grew like some immortal being, not fed with food nor nourished at the breast: for by day rich-crowned Demeter would anoint him with ambrosia as if he were the offspring of a god and breathe sweetly upon him as she held him in her bosom. But at night she would hide him like a brand in the heart of the fire, unknown to his dear parents. And it wrought great wonder in these that he grew beyond his age; for he was like the gods face to face. And she would have made him deathless and unaging, had not well-girded Metaneira in her heedlessness kept watch by night from her sweet-smelling chamber and spied. But she wailed and smote her two hips, because she feared for her son and was greatly distraught in her heart; so she lamented and uttered winged words:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Demophoon, my son, the strange woman buries you deep in fire and works grief and bitter sorrow for me.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thus she spoke, mourning. And the bright goddess, lovely-crowned Demeter, heard her, and was wroth with her. So with her divine hands she snatched from the fire the dear son whom Metaneira had born unhoped-for in the palace, and cast him from her to the ground; for she was terribly angry in her heart. Forthwith she said to well-girded Metaneira:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  &quot;Witless are you mortals and dull to foresee your lot, whether of good or evil, that comes upon you. For now in your heedlessness you have wrought folly past healing; for -- be witness the oath of the gods, the relentless water of Styx -- I would have made your dear son deathless and unaging all his days and would have bestowed on him ever-lasting honour, but now he can in no way escape death and the fates. Yet shall unfailing honour always rest upon him, because he lay upon my knees and slept in my arms. But, as the years move round and when he is in his prime, the sons of the Eleusinians shall ever wage war and dread strife with one another continually. Lo! I am that Demeter who has share of honour and is the greatest help and cause of joy to the undying gods and mortal men. But now, let all the people build me a great temple and an altar below it and beneath the city and its sheer wall upon a rising hillock above Callichorus. And I myself will teach my rites, that hereafter you may reverently perform them and so win the favour of my heart.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*Homeric Hymn to Demeter*, translated by Hugh G.Evelyn-White&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lastly, a more practical, yet deeply theological, reason for death by fire is that no body remains. The story of the hero ascending to Olympus is much easier to sell, without a corpse left to rot behind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; See _Odyssey_, Book 11 &amp; _Theogony_, 950.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; The apotheosis of Heracles presented unique challenges to his worshippers. For example, was he to be worshipped in a [heroon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroon), or a temple?  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; See, for example, the cremation of Patroclus in _Iliad_, Book 23.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; Suicide is highly unusual for heroes, and is often associated with cowardice.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; His death having been prophesized by Zeus in Dodona.   &#xD;&#xA;&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10100" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2449" RevisionGUID="7f2c1438-5329-4ff9-a989-93fbd38b2192" CreationDate="2017-03-12T06:35:33.793" UserId="3543" Comment="spelling" Text="I would like to add a point. Surely, as answered by Malay, there are many references to different forms of cows playing a major role in various pastimes. However, along with those references and the general quintessential importance of cow-products in India, *Gau-mātā* (mother cow) is also revered because - &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. She has special importance in the Hindu scriptures. For example, *Gau-hatyā* (killing a cow) is one of the most serious offences you can possibly commit, and it is said that &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *go-aṅge yata* *loma tata sahasra vatsara*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; *go-vadhī raurava-madhye pace nirantar*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cow killers and cow eaters are condemned to rot in hell for as many&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thousands of years as there are for each hair on the body of every cow&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they eat from.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many other similar quotations from the canonical Hindu texts that are well documented [here](https://goo.gl/3hSlcr)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. Krishna is particularly attached to cows. He has many names which describe Him as a protector of cows, like *Gopāl*, *Govind* etc. In one of the more popular mantras for Him, it is said - &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *namo brahmaṇya-devāya go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; *jagad-dhitāya kṛṣṇāya govindāya namo namaḥ*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;My Lord, You are the well-wisher of the cows and the brāhmaṇas, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; You are the well-wisher of the entire human society and world.&quot; (Viṣṇu&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Purāṇa 1.19.65)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So apart from the various references, it can be seen that scriptural injunction (which is an important independent entity in itself) and Krishna's special spot for them makes cows revered in India, especially from a Hindu perspective.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;NOTE: All italicized instances of `go`/`gau` here are Sanskrit for cow (grammar rules dictate which of the two would be used)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10102" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2457" RevisionGUID="462a9c99-6f3a-4100-bdcd-4f0b8326ab60" CreationDate="2017-03-12T15:25:18.357" UserId="57" Text="In *Works and Days* Hesiod outlines the successive [Ages of Man][1]. His description of the current times, the Iron Age, includes a doom and gloom prediction of the destruction of mankind at the hands of Zeus: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Zeus will destroy this race of mortal men also when they come to have grey hair on the temples at their birth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Hesiod. The Homeric Hymns and Homerica with an English Translation by Hugh G. Evelyn-White. Works and Days&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm trying to gauge the significance of this doomsday prophesy, within the wider framework of Greek mythology. Is Hesiod's version of the endtimes mentioned elsewhere? Where later authors influenced by it, and did they build upon it? Was Zeus thought of as the eventual destructor of humanity?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_Man#Hesiod.27s_Five_Ages" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10103" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2457" RevisionGUID="462a9c99-6f3a-4100-bdcd-4f0b8326ab60" CreationDate="2017-03-12T15:25:18.357" UserId="57" Text="Is the apocalypse prophesied by Hesiod mentioned elsewhere?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10104" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2457" RevisionGUID="462a9c99-6f3a-4100-bdcd-4f0b8326ab60" CreationDate="2017-03-12T15:25:18.357" UserId="57" Text="|greek|apocalypse|hesiod|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10105" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2457" RevisionGUID="54789844-c781-4cdb-96ef-05054ac33af3" CreationDate="2017-03-12T15:36:06.987" UserId="57" Comment="added 301 characters in body" Text="In *Works and Days* Hesiod outlines the successive [Ages of Man][1]. His description of the current times, the Iron Age, includes a doom and gloom prediction of the destruction of mankind at the hands of Zeus&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Zeus will destroy this race of mortal men also when they come to have grey hair on the temples at their birth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Hesiod. The Homeric Hymns and Homerica with an English Translation by Hugh G. Evelyn-White. Works and Days&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm trying to gauge the significance of this doomsday prophesy, within the wider framework of Greek mythology. Is Hesiod's version of the endtimes mentioned elsewhere? Where later authors influenced by it, and did they build upon it? Was Zeus thought of as the eventual destructor of humanity?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; The poet explicitly mentions that Zeus also had a hand in ending the second generation of men, for they had grown arrogant and ignored their sacred obligations to the gods. The first, third and fourth generations apparently died out without divine intervention.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_Man#Hesiod.27s_Five_Ages" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10106" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2457" RevisionGUID="1622820f-ee96-42c2-baeb-b98b5bf9d6f9" CreationDate="2017-03-12T16:19:22.610" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|eschatology|hesiod|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10107" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2458" RevisionGUID="1cba3906-d11e-4476-9fe3-624b58358beb" CreationDate="2017-03-12T20:46:52.787" UserId="2892" Text="Yannis [essentially answers the question here](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2419/2892), but I'll add a little detail, just for fun, using poetry *(since the deepest insights come from great poets)* and linguistics.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;T.S. Eliot writes about this very specifically:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Who then devised the torment? Love.&lt;br&gt; &#xD;&#xA;Love is the unfamiliar Name&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Behind the hands that wove &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The intolerable shirt of flame&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Which human power cannot remove.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;We only live, only suspire &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Consumed by either fire or fire.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Little Gidding][1]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The precious stanza elucidates further:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The dove descending breaks the air&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;With flame of incandescent terror&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Of which the tongues declare&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The one dischage from sin and error.&lt;br&gt; &#xD;&#xA;The only hope, or else despair&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Lies in the choice of pyre of pyre-&lt;br&gt; &#xD;&#xA;To be redeemed from fire by fire.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Little Gidding][1]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Ancient Greek word for fire is &quot;pur&quot; ([πῦρ][2]) from which we derive pyre and purify.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Four Quartets, Eliot connects these symbols from the Upanishads, through Greek Mythology and into Christian lore. Fire, is, of course, very important in Hindu mythology, and the christian conception of love as agape grows out of ancient Greek explorations of the deeper meaning of love.  Eliot purposely conflates eros and agape in this poem.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is the jealousy of Nessus that &quot;weaves&quot; the poison shirt, Deianira's love for her husband that brings it to him, but in the Christian conception, it is love that redeems us from the inextricable suffering of existence. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's not clear that Heracles can die--part of his myth is his defeat of death (Alcestis), and his travel to and return from the underworld.  Jumping off a cliff or opening his veins or falling on his sword may not have worked. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But by burning himself alive, he experiences suffering so excruciating that Zeus takes pity of him and releases him from the mortal coil. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pity was a very important concept to the Greeks.  It humanizes, as in the death of Hector, breaker of horses.  It was deeply religious, in that catharsis was the intent of Greek drama.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The purification and burning away of the mortal flesh can be said to be the foremost meaning, but pity is the key.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And all shall be well and&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;All manner of thing shall be well&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;When the tongues of flame are in-folded&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Into the crowned knot of fire&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And the fire and the rose are one.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Little Gidding][1]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.columbia.edu/itc/history/winter/w3206/edit/tseliotlittlegidding.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%E1%BF%A6%CF%81" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10108" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2451" RevisionGUID="21df7d72-2586-49d2-ab4c-498bdee36e26" CreationDate="2017-03-12T21:16:47.467" UserId="2892" Comment="Updated to explain the problem in the context of Greek and Latin texts" Text="Regarding the variance of Ancient Greek texts, I strongly urge anyone with an interest to compare the [Pope](https://www.gutenberg.org/files/6130/6130-h/6130-h.html#toc5), [Lattimore](http://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/I/bo5811519.html), [Fitzgerald](https://books.google.com/books?id=OT9pj8chUbQC&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;dq=Robert+Fitzgerald#v=onepage&amp;q=Robert%20Fitzgerald&amp;f=false) and [Fagles](https://books.google.com/books?id=CzaeCifjTf4C&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;dq=fagles+iliad&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjxqoHtz8zSAhUJ4iYKHbi3APcQ6wEIHTAA#v=onepage&amp;q=fagles%20iliad&amp;f=false) Iliads.  The variance of translation will be immediately apparent. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although the stories are all the same, details may differ due to the degree of license taken by various authors in translating.  Thus a question like &quot;[The repertoire of the Sphinx][1]&quot; [cannot be definitively answered][2] without [going to the source text][3]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ancient Greek is highly irregular, having lost the digamma, but still being subject to the digamma, in the conjugation of verbs, for instance. Although there are now superior electronic lexical resources, which make determining the roots of words a trivial task, in the past, even the recent past, this was very arduous works, and scholars needed a profound understanding of the language to advance the scholarship. The further back you go in time, the less accurate Ancient Greek translations are going to be, which is why newer translations are always favored for mythological research purposes. ([Richmond Lattimore][4] is often held up as epitomizing accuracy and elegance in Ancient Greek translation.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Latin is much more regular, and it is easier to directly translate words.  For instance, the [Loeb Metamorphoses][5] presents a translation originally from 1916 that is nearly word for word, although Goold notes in the preface that &quot;there was much which in the recent light of scholarship called for amendment.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[Ovid Metamorphoses, Miller, F.J., Harvard University Press, 1994]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Goold also note the variance in the Latin source texts, and the possibility of two Ovid versions, which raises another important issues:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the deepest level of scholarship, one must consider not just a single source in the original language, but all competing sources in the original language, for a given text.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For instance, [the miraculous rescue of Iphigenia at Aulis is widely believed to be an interpolation \[see note 102\]][6]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, to understand the Euripides play at anything more than a cursory level, you need to be aware of the scholarship regarding the source texts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*On a personal note, I've known at least one theology student who turned away from Greek because it raised too many questions regarding interpretation of the texts.*  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/2396/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2397/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2402/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richmond_Lattimore&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.loebclassics.com/view/LCL042/1916/volume.xml&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Iphigenia_at_Aulis" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10109" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2451" RevisionGUID="bdd5c883-6bae-471f-ad6d-01d3180e8d0b" CreationDate="2017-03-12T21:22:05.247" UserId="2892" Comment="Updated to explain the problem in the context of Greek and Latin texts" Text="Regarding the variance of Ancient Greek texts, I strongly urge anyone with an interest to compare the [Pope](https://www.gutenberg.org/files/6130/6130-h/6130-h.html#toc5), [Lattimore](http://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/I/bo5811519.html), [Fitzgerald](https://books.google.com/books?id=OT9pj8chUbQC&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;dq=Robert+Fitzgerald#v=onepage&amp;q=Robert%20Fitzgerald&amp;f=false) and [Fagles](https://books.google.com/books?id=CzaeCifjTf4C&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;dq=fagles+iliad&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjxqoHtz8zSAhUJ4iYKHbi3APcQ6wEIHTAA#v=onepage&amp;q=fagles%20iliad&amp;f=false) Iliads.  The variance of translation will be immediately apparent. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although the stories are all the same, details may differ due to the degree of license taken by various authors in translating.  Thus a question like &quot;[The repertoire of the Sphinx][1]&quot; [cannot be definitively answered][2] without [going to the source text][3]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ancient Greek is highly irregular, having lost the digamma, but still being subject to the digamma, in the conjugation of verbs, for instance. Although there are now superior electronic lexical resources, which make determining the roots of words a trivial task, in the past, even the recent past, this was very arduous works, and scholars needed a profound understanding of the language to advance the scholarship. The further back you go in time, the less accurate Ancient Greek translations are going to be, which is why newer translations are always favored for mythological research purposes. ([Richmond Lattimore][4] is often held up as epitomizing accuracy and elegance in Ancient Greek translation.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Latin is much more regular, and words can be more easily directly translated. However, like Ancient Greek, Latin has a vast number of noun and verb forms, and utilizes staggeringly complex clause structures, which can create ambiguity, especially as ancient texts have little in the way of punctuation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For instance, the [Loeb Metamorphoses][5] presents a translation originally from 1916 that is nearly word for word, although Goold notes in the preface that &quot;there was much which in the recent light of scholarship called for amendment.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;[Ovid Metamorphoses, Miller, F.J., Harvard University Press, 1994]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Goold also note the variance in the Latin source texts, and the possibility of two Ovid versions, which raises another important issues:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the deepest level of scholarship, one must consider not just a single source in the original language, but all competing sources in the original language, for a given text.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For instance, [the miraculous rescue of Iphigenia at Aulis is widely believed to be an interpolation \[see note 102\]][6]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, to understand the Euripides play at anything more than a cursory level, you need to be aware of the scholarship regarding the source texts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*On a personal note, I've known at least one theology student who turned away from Greek because it raised too many questions regarding interpretation of the texts.*  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/2396/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2397/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2402/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richmond_Lattimore&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.loebclassics.com/view/LCL042/1916/volume.xml&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Iphigenia_at_Aulis" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10110" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2459" RevisionGUID="34a18266-8599-449e-b7c9-5ad245991ae8" CreationDate="2017-03-12T21:27:59.240" UserId="2892" Text="It would be helpful if you could link to the article.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;High level answer without seeing the article would be the [Upanishads][1] for India, and the [Book of Songs][2] for China.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is worth noting that in the Chinese tradition, mythology and history are conflated until the 20th century, so much of the mythology comes out of histories by authors like [Sima Qian][3].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the Indian material, you may find the religious texts difficult to get through, due to the repetitions, but William Buck has excellent translations of the  [Vālmīki Ramayana][4] and [Mahabarata][5] specifically adapted for Westerners interested in the stories. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanishads&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_of_Poetry&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sima_Qian&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/141152.Ramayana&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/28198285-o-mahabarata" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10111" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2459" RevisionGUID="c7ced0f7-4fc8-4fba-8f8c-bd9728375818" CreationDate="2017-03-12T21:37:37.837" UserId="2892" Comment="added 420 characters in body" Text="It would be helpful if you could link to the article.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;High level answer without seeing the article would be the [Upanishads][1] for India, and the [Book of Songs][2] for China.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of the [Mesopotamian material][3], that is very old indeed, but difficult to link directly to existing cultures.  Nevertheless, work like the [Epic of Gilgamesh][4] is believed to be the earliest surviving work of literature, the first epic, and may be considered the foundation of Western mythology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is worth noting that in the Chinese tradition, mythology and history are conflated until the 20th century, so much of the mythology comes out of histories by authors like [Sima Qian][5].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the Indian material, you may find the religious texts difficult to get through, due to the repetitions, but William Buck has excellent translations of the  [Vālmīki Ramayana][6] and [Mahabarata][7] specifically adapted for Westerners interested in the stories. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanishads&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_of_Poetry&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamia&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sima_Qian&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/141152.Ramayana&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/28198285-o-mahabarata" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10112" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2458" RevisionGUID="8b739982-395b-4923-829a-f93ff5ff2073" CreationDate="2017-03-12T21:38:37.627" UserId="2892" Comment="edited body" Text="Yannis [essentially answers the question here](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2419/2892), but I'll add a little detail, just for fun, using poetry *(since the deepest insights come from great poets)* and linguistics.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;T.S. Eliot writes about this very specifically:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Who then devised the torment? Love.&lt;br&gt; &#xD;&#xA;Love is the unfamiliar Name&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Behind the hands that wove &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The intolerable shirt of flame&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Which human power cannot remove.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;We only live, only suspire &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Consumed by either fire or fire.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Little Gidding][1]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The previous stanza elucidates further:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The dove descending breaks the air&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;With flame of incandescent terror&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Of which the tongues declare&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The one dischage from sin and error.&lt;br&gt; &#xD;&#xA;The only hope, or else despair&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Lies in the choice of pyre of pyre-&lt;br&gt; &#xD;&#xA;To be redeemed from fire by fire.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Little Gidding][1]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Ancient Greek word for fire is &quot;pur&quot; ([πῦρ][2]) from which we derive pyre and purify.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Four Quartets and other works, Eliot connects these ideas from the Upanishads, through Greek Mythology and into Christian lore. Fire, is, of course, very important in Hindu mythology, and the Christian conception of love as [agape][3] grows out of ancient Greek explorations of the deeper meaning of love beyond [eros][4].  Eliot purposely conflates eros and agape in this poem.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is the romantic jealousy of Nessus that &quot;weaves&quot; the poison shirt, Deianira's love for her husband that brings it to him, but in the Christian conception, it is love that redeems us from the inextricable suffering of existence. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's not clear that Heracles can die--part of his myth is his defeat of death (Alcestis), and his travel to and return from the underworld.  Jumping off a cliff or opening his veins or falling on his sword may not have worked. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But by burning himself alive, he experiences suffering so excruciating that Zeus takes pity of him and releases him from the mortal coil. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pity was a very important concept to the Greeks.  It humanizes, as in the death of Hector, breaker of horses.  It was deeply religious, in that catharsis was the intent of Greek drama.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The purification and burning away of the mortal flesh can be said to be the foremost meaning, but pity is the key.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And all shall be well and&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;All manner of thing shall be well&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;When the tongues of flame are in-folded&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Into the crowned knot of fire&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And the fire and the rose are one.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Little Gidding][1]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.columbia.edu/itc/history/winter/w3206/edit/tseliotlittlegidding.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%E1%BF%A6%CF%81&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agape&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eros" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10113" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2431" RevisionGUID="2b07809c-7c0a-4662-8ffe-705fb2c0781d" CreationDate="2017-03-12T22:03:24.720" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body" Text="(Of dead heroes, that is.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*My guess, based on my own gut inclination, has to do with Freyja's glamour, which clouds my senses, and makes me want to wait for Ragnarök in her most pleasant company, even though Odin probably has better stories.  Thus, she has her pick of the litter, and those she rejects go with dad.* " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10119" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2458" RevisionGUID="01d88893-7c31-4e81-9032-1a900970a33a" CreationDate="2017-03-12T23:07:31.167" UserId="2892" Comment="added 1000 characters in body" Text="Yannis [essentially answers the question here](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2419/2892), but I'll add a little detail, just for fun, using poetry *(since the deepest insights come from great poets)* and linguistics.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;T.S. Eliot writes about this very specifically:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Who then devised the torment? Love.&lt;br&gt; &#xD;&#xA;Love is the unfamiliar Name&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Behind the hands that wove &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The intolerable shirt of flame&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Which human power cannot remove.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;We only live, only suspire &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Consumed by either fire or fire.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Little Gidding][1]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The previous stanza elucidates further:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The dove descending breaks the air&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;With flame of incandescent terror&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Of which the tongues declare&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The one dischage from sin and error.&lt;br&gt; &#xD;&#xA;The only hope, or else despair&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Lies in the choice of pyre of pyre-&lt;br&gt; &#xD;&#xA;To be redeemed from fire by fire.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Little Gidding][1]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Ancient Greek word for fire is &quot;pur&quot; ([πῦρ][2]) from which we derive pyre and purify.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Four Quartets and other works, Eliot connects these ideas from the Upanishads, through Greek Mythology and into Christian lore. Fire, is, of course, very important in Hindu mythology, and the Christian conception of love as [agape][3] grows out of ancient Greek explorations of the deeper meaning of love beyond [eros][4].  Eliot purposely conflates eros and agape in this poem.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is the romantic jealousy of Nessus that &quot;weaves&quot; the poison shirt, Deianira's love for her husband that brings it to him, but in the Christian conception, it is love that redeems us from the inextricable suffering of existence. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's not clear that Heracles can die--part of his myth is his defeat of death (Alcestis), and his travel to and return from the underworld.  Jumping off a cliff or opening his veins or falling on his sword may not have worked. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But by burning himself alive, he experiences suffering so excruciating that Zeus takes pity of him and releases him from the mortal coil. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pity was a very important concept to the Greeks.  It humanizes, as in the death of Hector, breaker of horses.  It was deeply religious, in that catharsis was the intent of Greek drama.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The purification and burning away of the mortal flesh can be said to be the foremost meaning, but pity is the key.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Heracles' agony is what gets Hera to relent, according to Ovid:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Come Juno, feast upon my death;&#xD;&#xA;feast on me, cruel one, look down from your&#xD;&#xA;exalted seat; behold my dreadful end&#xD;&#xA;and glut your savage heart! Oh, if I may&#xD;&#xA;deserve some pity from my enemy,&#xD;&#xA;from you I mean, this hateful life of mine&#xD;&#xA;take from me—sick with cruel suffering&#xD;&#xA;and only born for toil. The loss of life&#xD;&#xA;will be a boon to me, and surely is&#xD;&#xA;a fitting boon, such as stepmothers give!&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[\[Metamorphoses, Book IX\]][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later in the section:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Gods felt fear&#xD;&#xA;for earth's defender and their sympathy&#xD;&#xA;gave pleasure to Saturnian Jove&lt;br&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[\[Metamorphoses, Book IX\]][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And all the gods, including Hera, acquiesce to Heracles deification and release from suffering.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is worth noting that Eliot concludes the Four Quartets with:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And all shall be well and&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;All manner of thing shall be well&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;When the tongues of flame are in-folded&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Into the crowned knot of fire&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And the fire and the rose are one.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Little Gidding][1]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.columbia.edu/itc/history/winter/w3206/edit/tseliotlittlegidding.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%E1%BF%A6%CF%81&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agape&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eros&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D172" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10120" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2458" RevisionGUID="73a4901b-f6cf-42c0-b892-d7241f275d17" CreationDate="2017-03-12T23:18:54.393" UserId="2892" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="Yannis [essentially answers the question here](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2419/2892), but I'll add a little detail, just for fun, using poetry *(since the deepest insights come from great poets)* and linguistics.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;T.S. Eliot writes about this very specifically:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Who then devised the torment? Love.&lt;br&gt; &#xD;&#xA;Love is the unfamiliar Name&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Behind the hands that wove &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The intolerable shirt of flame&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Which human power cannot remove.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;We only live, only suspire &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Consumed by either fire or fire.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Little Gidding][1]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The previous stanza elucidates further:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The dove descending breaks the air&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;With flame of incandescent terror&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Of which the tongues declare&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The one dischage from sin and error.&lt;br&gt; &#xD;&#xA;The only hope, or else despair&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Lies in the choice of pyre of pyre-&lt;br&gt; &#xD;&#xA;To be redeemed from fire by fire.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Little Gidding][1]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Ancient Greek word for fire is &quot;pur&quot; ([πῦρ][2]) from which we derive pyre and purify.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Four Quartets and other works, Eliot connects these ideas from the Upanishads, through Greek Mythology and into Christian lore. Fire, is, of course, very important in Hindu mythology, and the Christian conception of love as [agape][3] grows out of ancient Greek explorations of the deeper meaning of love beyond [eros][4].  Eliot purposely conflates eros and agape in this poem.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is the romantic jealousy of Nessus that &quot;weaves&quot; the poison shirt, Deianira's love for her husband that brings it to him, but in the Christian conception, it is love that redeems us from the inextricable suffering of existence. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's not clear that Heracles can die--part of his myth is his defeat of death (Alcestis), and his travel to and return from the underworld.  Jumping off a cliff or opening his veins or falling on his sword may not have worked. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But by burning himself alive, he experiences suffering so excruciating that Zeus takes pity of him and releases him from the mortal coil. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pity was a very important concept to the Greeks.  It humanizes, as in the death of Hector, breaker of horses.  It was deeply religious, in that catharsis was the intent of Greek drama.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The purification and burning away of the mortal flesh can be said to be the foremost meaning, but pity is the key.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Heracles' agony is what gets Hera to relent, according to Ovid:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Come Juno, feast upon my death;&#xD;&#xA;feast on me, cruel one, look down from your&#xD;&#xA;exalted seat; behold my dreadful end&#xD;&#xA;and glut your savage heart! Oh, if I may&#xD;&#xA;deserve some pity from my enemy,&#xD;&#xA;from you I mean, this hateful life of mine&#xD;&#xA;take from me—sick with cruel suffering&#xD;&#xA;and only born for toil. The loss of life&#xD;&#xA;will be a boon to me, and surely is&#xD;&#xA;a fitting boon, such as stepmothers give!&quot;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[\[Metamorphoses, Book IX\]][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later in the section:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Gods felt fear&#xD;&#xA;for earth's defender and their sympathy&#xD;&#xA;gave pleasure to Saturnian Jove&lt;br&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[\[Metamorphoses, Book IX\]][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And all the gods, including Hera, acquiesce to Heracles deification and release from suffering.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is worth noting that Eliot concludes the Four Quartets with:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And all shall be well and&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;All manner of thing shall be well&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;When the tongues of flame are in-folded&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Into the crowned knot of fire&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And the fire and the rose are one.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Little Gidding][1]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.columbia.edu/itc/history/winter/w3206/edit/tseliotlittlegidding.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%E1%BF%A6%CF%81&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agape&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eros&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D172" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10121" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2419" RevisionGUID="f6488522-424d-479b-b03f-e9b253dadb85" CreationDate="2017-03-13T08:02:56.790" UserId="57" Comment="added 131 characters in body" Text="The exact manner of Heracles' death did not appear to be significant to early authors of the myth. In fact, even though both Homer and Hesiod mention the hero eventually finding his place amongst the gods&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;, neither explain how he achieved divinity. It seems the task of constructing a tale explaining Heracles' unique and somewhat bizare&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; status as &quot;hero god&quot; was daunting, even to the likes of Homer and Hesiod. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yet, although Heracles may not have been a protagonist in the works of the epic poets, in the 5th century BCE he was truly a panhellenic hero. The story of his death and deification was now an important one, one that could not remain untold. Audiences were already aware that Herakles had cheated death more than once, and that he would eventually ascent to Olympus. All that remained was an elaborate death scene, one that would be majestic enough to match the status of the hero and perhaps theologically significant enough to explain the transition from man to god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Death by fire may seem like an excruciating way to go, however, it really is the most fitting choice. Before attempting to explain why I'd like to provide some context by quoting parts of the story as told by Sophocles in *Trachiniae*: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Heracles**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now... do you know Zeus' sacred mountain Oeta?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Hyllus**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Yes. I have often sacrificed upon it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Heracles**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; That is the place where you must carry me  &#xD;&#xA;with your own hands, and with what friends you choose.  &#xD;&#xA;There hew the wood of deeply-rooted oaks  &#xD;&#xA;and slash the trunks of wild male olive trees,  &#xD;&#xA;placing my body on a pyre made from them;  &#xD;&#xA;then take a brightly blazing torch of pine  &#xD;&#xA;and light the pyre. And do not moan and weep,  &#xD;&#xA;for if you are my son you will perform this  &#xD;&#xA;without a sigh or tear. If not, my curse,  &#xD;&#xA;even when I am dead, will weigh upon you.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Sophocles, *Women of Trachis*. Translation by Robert M. Torrance&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyllus reluctantly agrees and constructs the pyre, and then places his father on it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Heracles**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; At last you speak well! Now perform this favor&#xD;&#xA;swiftly, my child, and place me on the pyre&#xD;&#xA;before the stinging spasm comes again.&#xD;&#xA;Make haste and lift me. Now I feel release&#xD;&#xA;from troubles, for my final end is here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Hyllus**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Nothing prevents fulfillment of these deeds,&#xD;&#xA;since you command it and compel us, father      &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first question we must ask is if Heracles' death is in accordance with funerary customs of the era, as his deification would be even more inexplicable if his death was somehow sacrilegious. Although cremation had gone out of style in most parts of Greece, it was not entirely abandoned and was still the preferred practice in Athens. Furthermore - and perhaps more importantly - cremation was strongly associated with the Heroic Age. Even if it wasn't the favourite practice of the era, we can't ignore how the tale of  Heracles' death parallels the deaths of the heroes of the Trojan War&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Still, the hero's death is gruesome. He is burned _alive_ after all. However, even though Heracles knows that his suffering will eventually end&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt;, it is established in the tale that the pain from the poison is, for lack of a better word, unbearable. Out of context, his death appears dreadful. Considering the alternative, though, we may even say it's liberating. In some versions of the myth, the poison is said to slowly burn the hero's skin, making his death in the pyre even for fitting (as it doesn't add to the pain, only accelerates the inevitable).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for theological symbolisms, the most obvious one is that of sacrifice. Heracles specifically chooses [Oeta](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Oeta) - a mountain sacred to Zeus - as the scene of his death and provides elaborate instructions for the construction of the pyre. Both the location and the complexity of the pyre favour a ritualistic interpretation, a last offering of Heracles to the glory of Zeus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or perhaps the ritual is one of purification, one that intends to separate (or even liberate) the divine from the corporeal. This wouldn't be a new idea, as the notion of burning mortality away also appears in the story of [Demophoon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demophon_of_Eleusis):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When she had so spoken, she took the child in her fragrant bosom with her divine hands: and his mother was glad in her heart. So the goddess nursed in the palace Demophoon, wise Celeus' goodly son whom well-girded Metaneira bare. And the child grew like some immortal being, not fed with food nor nourished at the breast: for by day rich-crowned Demeter would anoint him with ambrosia as if he were the offspring of a god and breathe sweetly upon him as she held him in her bosom. But at night she would hide him like a brand in the heart of the fire, unknown to his dear parents. And it wrought great wonder in these that he grew beyond his age; for he was like the gods face to face. And she would have made him deathless and unaging, had not well-girded Metaneira in her heedlessness kept watch by night from her sweet-smelling chamber and spied. But she wailed and smote her two hips, because she feared for her son and was greatly distraught in her heart; so she lamented and uttered winged words:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Demophoon, my son, the strange woman buries you deep in fire and works grief and bitter sorrow for me.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thus she spoke, mourning. And the bright goddess, lovely-crowned Demeter, heard her, and was wroth with her. So with her divine hands she snatched from the fire the dear son whom Metaneira had born unhoped-for in the palace, and cast him from her to the ground; for she was terribly angry in her heart. Forthwith she said to well-girded Metaneira:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  &quot;Witless are you mortals and dull to foresee your lot, whether of good or evil, that comes upon you. For now in your heedlessness you have wrought folly past healing; for -- be witness the oath of the gods, the relentless water of Styx -- I would have made your dear son deathless and unaging all his days and would have bestowed on him ever-lasting honour, but now he can in no way escape death and the fates. Yet shall unfailing honour always rest upon him, because he lay upon my knees and slept in my arms. But, as the years move round and when he is in his prime, the sons of the Eleusinians shall ever wage war and dread strife with one another continually. Lo! I am that Demeter who has share of honour and is the greatest help and cause of joy to the undying gods and mortal men. But now, let all the people build me a great temple and an altar below it and beneath the city and its sheer wall upon a rising hillock above Callichorus. And I myself will teach my rites, that hereafter you may reverently perform them and so win the favour of my heart.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*Homeric Hymn to Demeter*, translated by Hugh G.Evelyn-White&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lastly, a more practical, yet deeply theological, reason for death by fire is that no body remains. The story of the hero ascending to Olympus is much easier to sell, without a corpse left to rot behind&lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; See _Odyssey_, Book 11 &amp; _Theogony_, 950.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; The apotheosis of Heracles presented unique challenges to his worshippers. For example, was he to be worshipped in a [heroon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroon), or a temple?  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; See, for example, the cremation of Patroclus in _Iliad_, Book 23.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; Suicide is highly unusual for heroes, and is often associated with cowardice.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; His death having been prophesized by Zeus in Dodona.   &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt; A corpse would require a burial, a cthonic ritual that is antithetical to the idea of ascending to heaven.&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10122" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2461" RevisionGUID="bbc59684-ad88-4aae-a73f-42670284bd6b" CreationDate="2017-03-13T09:31:04.020" UserId="57" Text="Two works of [Nonnus of Panopolis][1] survive to this day: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The *[Dionysiaca][2]*, an epic poem about the life of Dionysus,&#xD;&#xA; - The *[Paraphrase of John][3]*, a rewording of the *Gospel of John*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a rare example of an ancient author producing works in different (and perhaps we could even say competing) theological traditions. This is far from certain, but I am assuming Nonnus was immensely interested in Christianity, and may even have practised it while writing the *Dionysiaca*. The subject matter of the *Dionysiaca* alone could hint to an interest in Christianity&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;, as there are strong parallels between the life of Dionysus and the life of Jesus&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have not read the *Dionysiaca*, and this may be an obvious question to those who have, but I'm wondering if scholars have positively identified Christian influences in the poem. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; Nonnus lived in a time and place where he would be in constant contact with the emerging religion.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; See: [Jesus in comparative mythology][4].&#xD;&#xA;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonnus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysiaca&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonnus#The_Paraphrase_of_John&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://%20https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_comparative_mythology#Greco-Roman_mysteries" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10123" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2461" RevisionGUID="bbc59684-ad88-4aae-a73f-42670284bd6b" CreationDate="2017-03-13T09:31:04.020" UserId="57" Text="Are there Christian influences in the Dionysiaca?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10124" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2461" RevisionGUID="bbc59684-ad88-4aae-a73f-42670284bd6b" CreationDate="2017-03-13T09:31:04.020" UserId="57" Text="|greek|comparative|christianity|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10125" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2461" RevisionGUID="96d7a518-fe44-4afb-ae46-a0626e238e3a" CreationDate="2017-03-13T09:38:42.753" UserId="57" Comment="added 26 characters in body" Text="Two works of [Nonnus of Panopolis][1] survive to this day: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The *[Dionysiaca][2]*, an epic poem about the life of Dionysus,&#xD;&#xA; - The *[Paraphrase of John][3]*, a rewording of the *Gospel of John*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a rare example of an ancient author producing works in different (and perhaps we could even say competing) theological traditions. This is far from certain, but I am assuming Nonnus was immensely interested in Christianity, and may even have practised it while writing the *Dionysiaca*. The subject matter of the *Dionysiaca* alone could hint to an interest in Christianity&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have not read the *Dionysiaca*, and this may be an obvious question to those who have, but I'm wondering if scholars have positively identified Christian influences in the poem. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; Nonnus lived in a time and place where he would be in constant contact with the emerging religion. Given the strong [parallels between the life of Dionysus and the life of Jesus](http://%20https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_comparative_mythology#Greco-Roman_mysteries), the life of Dionysus would have been the more accessible Greek mythology topic for Christian audiences.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonnus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysiaca&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonnus#The_Paraphrase_of_John&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10126" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2461" RevisionGUID="65c43a7c-16f3-4bb1-9ad2-0a87cd96d831" CreationDate="2017-03-13T09:51:07.457" UserId="57" Comment="edited body" Text="Two works by [Nonnus of Panopolis][1] survive to this day: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The *[Dionysiaca][2]*, an epic poem about the life of Dionysus,&#xD;&#xA; - The *[Paraphrase of John][3]*, a rewording of the *Gospel of John*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a rare example of an ancient author producing works in different (and perhaps we could even say competing) theological traditions. This is far from certain, but I am assuming Nonnus was immensely interested in Christianity, and may even have practised it while writing the *Dionysiaca*. The subject matter of the *Dionysiaca* alone could hint to an interest in Christianity&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have not read the *Dionysiaca*, and this may be an obvious question to those who have, but I'm wondering if scholars have positively identified Christian influences in the poem. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; Nonnus lived in a time and place where he would be in constant contact with the emerging religion. Given the strong [parallels between the life of Dionysus and the life of Jesus](http://%20https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_comparative_mythology#Greco-Roman_mysteries), the life of Dionysus would have been a relatively accessible Greek mythology topic for Christian audiences.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonnus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysiaca&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonnus#The_Paraphrase_of_John&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10127" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2419" RevisionGUID="ab444e95-28e3-4f69-b385-8ee8adc242c1" CreationDate="2017-03-13T12:27:29.173" UserId="57" Comment="added 16 characters in body" Text="The exact manner of Heracles' death did not appear to be significant to early authors of the myth. In fact, even though both Homer and Hesiod mention the hero eventually finding his place amongst the gods&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;, neither explain how he achieved divinity. It seems the task of constructing a tale explaining Heracles' unique and somewhat bizare&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; status as &quot;hero god&quot; was daunting, even to the likes of Homer and Hesiod. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yet, although Heracles may not have been a protagonist in the works of the epic poets, in the 5th century BCE he was truly a panhellenic hero. The story of his death and deification was now an important one, one that could not remain untold. Audiences were already aware that Herakles had cheated death more than once, and that he would eventually ascent to Olympus. All that remained was an elaborate death scene, one that would be majestic enough to match the status of the hero and perhaps theologically significant enough to explain the transition from man to god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Death by fire may seem like an excruciating way to go, however, it really is the most fitting choice. Before attempting to explain why I'd like to provide some context by quoting parts of the story as told by Sophocles in *Trachiniae*: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Heracles**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now... do you know Zeus' sacred mountain Oeta?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Hyllus**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Yes. I have often sacrificed upon it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Heracles**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; That is the place where you must carry me  &#xD;&#xA;with your own hands, and with what friends you choose.  &#xD;&#xA;There hew the wood of deeply-rooted oaks  &#xD;&#xA;and slash the trunks of wild male olive trees,  &#xD;&#xA;placing my body on a pyre made from them;  &#xD;&#xA;then take a brightly blazing torch of pine  &#xD;&#xA;and light the pyre. And do not moan and weep,  &#xD;&#xA;for if you are my son you will perform this  &#xD;&#xA;without a sigh or tear. If not, my curse,  &#xD;&#xA;even when I am dead, will weigh upon you.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Sophocles, *Women of Trachis*. Translation by Robert M. Torrance&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyllus reluctantly agrees and constructs the pyre, and then places his father on it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Heracles**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; At last you speak well! Now perform this favor&#xD;&#xA;swiftly, my child, and place me on the pyre&#xD;&#xA;before the stinging spasm comes again.&#xD;&#xA;Make haste and lift me. Now I feel release&#xD;&#xA;from troubles, for my final end is here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Hyllus**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Nothing prevents fulfillment of these deeds,&#xD;&#xA;since you command it and compel us, father      &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first question we must ask is if Heracles' death is in accordance with funerary customs of the era, as his deification would be even more inexplicable if his death was somehow sacrilegious. Although cremation had gone out of style in most parts of Greece, it was not entirely abandoned and was still the preferred practice in Athens. Furthermore - and perhaps more importantly - cremation was strongly associated with the Heroic Age. Even if it wasn't the favourite practice of the era, we can't ignore how the tale of  Heracles' death parallels the deaths of the heroes of the Trojan War&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Still, the hero's death is gruesome. He is burned _alive_ after all. However, even though Heracles knows that his suffering will eventually end&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt;, it is established in the tale that the pain from the poison is, for lack of a better word, unbearable. Out of context, his death appears dreadful. Considering the alternative, though, we may even say it's liberating. In some versions of the myth, the poison is said to slowly burn the hero's skin, making his death even more fitting. It doesn't add to the pain, it only accelerates the inevitable.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for theological symbolisms, the most obvious one is that of sacrifice. Heracles specifically chooses [Oeta](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Oeta) - a mountain sacred to Zeus - as the scene of his death and provides elaborate instructions for the construction of the pyre. Both the location and the complexity of the pyre favour a ritualistic interpretation, a last offering of Heracles to the glory of Zeus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or perhaps the ritual is one of purification, one that intends to separate (or even liberate) the divine from the corporeal. This wouldn't be a new idea, as the notion of burning mortality away also appears in the story of [Demophoon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demophon_of_Eleusis):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When she had so spoken, she took the child in her fragrant bosom with her divine hands: and his mother was glad in her heart. So the goddess nursed in the palace Demophoon, wise Celeus' goodly son whom well-girded Metaneira bare. And the child grew like some immortal being, not fed with food nor nourished at the breast: for by day rich-crowned Demeter would anoint him with ambrosia as if he were the offspring of a god and breathe sweetly upon him as she held him in her bosom. But at night she would hide him like a brand in the heart of the fire, unknown to his dear parents. And it wrought great wonder in these that he grew beyond his age; for he was like the gods face to face. And she would have made him deathless and unaging, had not well-girded Metaneira in her heedlessness kept watch by night from her sweet-smelling chamber and spied. But she wailed and smote her two hips, because she feared for her son and was greatly distraught in her heart; so she lamented and uttered winged words:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Demophoon, my son, the strange woman buries you deep in fire and works grief and bitter sorrow for me.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thus she spoke, mourning. And the bright goddess, lovely-crowned Demeter, heard her, and was wroth with her. So with her divine hands she snatched from the fire the dear son whom Metaneira had born unhoped-for in the palace, and cast him from her to the ground; for she was terribly angry in her heart. Forthwith she said to well-girded Metaneira:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  &quot;Witless are you mortals and dull to foresee your lot, whether of good or evil, that comes upon you. For now in your heedlessness you have wrought folly past healing; for -- be witness the oath of the gods, the relentless water of Styx -- I would have made your dear son deathless and unaging all his days and would have bestowed on him ever-lasting honour, but now he can in no way escape death and the fates. Yet shall unfailing honour always rest upon him, because he lay upon my knees and slept in my arms. But, as the years move round and when he is in his prime, the sons of the Eleusinians shall ever wage war and dread strife with one another continually. Lo! I am that Demeter who has share of honour and is the greatest help and cause of joy to the undying gods and mortal men. But now, let all the people build me a great temple and an altar below it and beneath the city and its sheer wall upon a rising hillock above Callichorus. And I myself will teach my rites, that hereafter you may reverently perform them and so win the favour of my heart.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*Homeric Hymn to Demeter*, translated by Hugh G.Evelyn-White&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lastly, a more practical, yet deeply theological, reason for death by fire is that no body remains. The story of the hero ascending to Olympus is much easier to sell, without a corpse left to rot behind&lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; See _Odyssey_, Book 11 &amp; _Theogony_, 950.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; The apotheosis of Heracles presented unique challenges to his worshippers. For example, was he to be worshipped in a [heroon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroon), or a temple?  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; See, for example, the cremation of Patroclus in _Iliad_, Book 23.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; Suicide is highly unusual for heroes, and is often associated with cowardice.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; His death having been prophesized by Zeus in Dodona.   &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt; A corpse would require a burial, a cthonic ritual that by definition is antithetical to the idea of ascending to heaven.&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10128" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2462" RevisionGUID="7eb045ff-b0d4-4266-8edf-71e8f9787c54" CreationDate="2017-03-13T16:16:06.260" UserId="3560" Text="I wasn't sure whether to ask this in history as it relates to art history, but the Chimera's appearance varies considerably in art throughout history. Designs vary in the proportion of lion, goat and snake. Some designs include a dragon. At least one design I recall seeing on a Greek or Roman plate has the lion front half transition into a giant snake past the chest. I am trying to find the earliest sources of these appearances as far as archaeology has been able to tell us." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10129" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2462" RevisionGUID="7eb045ff-b0d4-4266-8edf-71e8f9787c54" CreationDate="2017-03-13T16:16:06.260" UserId="3560" Text="Where did the various artistic depictions of the Chimera originate?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10130" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2462" RevisionGUID="7eb045ff-b0d4-4266-8edf-71e8f9787c54" CreationDate="2017-03-13T16:16:06.260" UserId="3560" Text="|greek|monsters|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10131" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2462" RevisionGUID="c3156d2a-5b91-4878-b4a7-b5db38b0cd87" CreationDate="2017-03-13T16:29:36.783" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|origins|monsters|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10132" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2447" RevisionGUID="f89cd4e5-621e-47db-b041-d20193984484" CreationDate="2017-03-13T19:45:33.213" UserId="2892" Comment="The title should properly be Hercules, since I use the Ovid to support the point.  (Also good to have questions on Hercules for search reason, since the Latin form of his name is more widely known than the Greek)" Text="What is the meaning of Hercules' self-immolation?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10133" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2458" RevisionGUID="90382611-8fba-46c1-9643-195f1e466ae1" CreationDate="2017-03-13T20:48:47.833" UserId="2892" Comment="Added a note on the dove, which is associated with Hera in addition to Aphrodite, and the links between the two goddesses" Text="Yannis [essentially answers the question here](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2419/2892), but I'll add a little detail, just for fun, using poetry *(since the deepest insights come from great poets)* and linguistics.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;T.S. Eliot writes about this very specifically:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The dove descending breaks the air&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;With flame of incandescent terror&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Of which the tongues declare&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The one dischage from sin and error.&lt;br&gt; &#xD;&#xA;The only hope, or else despair&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Lies in the choice of pyre of pyre-&lt;br&gt; &#xD;&#xA;To be redeemed from fire by fire.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Who then devised the torment? Love.&lt;br&gt; &#xD;&#xA;Love is the unfamiliar Name&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Behind the hands that wove &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The intolerable shirt of flame&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Which human power cannot remove.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;We only live, only suspire &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Consumed by either fire or fire.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Little Gidding][1]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Ancient Greek word for fire is &quot;pur&quot; ([πῦρ][2]) from which we derive pyre and purify.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Four Quartets and other works, Eliot connects these ideas from the Upanishads, through Greek Mythology and into Christian lore. Fire, is, of course, very important in Hindu mythology, and the Christian conception of love as [agape][3] grows out of ancient Greek explorations of the deeper meaning of love beyond [eros][4].  Eliot purposely conflates eros and agape in this poem.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is the romantic jealousy of Nessus that &quot;weaves&quot; the poison shirt, Deianira's love for her husband that brings it to him, but in the Christian conception, it is love that redeems us from the inextricable suffering of existence. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's not clear that Heracles can die--part of his myth is his defeat of death (Alcestis), and his travel to and return from the underworld.  Jumping off a cliff or opening his veins or falling on his sword may not have worked. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But by burning himself alive, he experiences suffering so excruciating that Zeus takes pity of him and releases him from the mortal coil. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pity was a very important concept to the Greeks.  It humanizes, as in the death of Hector, breaker of horses.  It was deeply religious, in that catharsis was the intent of Greek drama.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The purification and burning away of the mortal flesh can be said to be the foremost meaning, but pity is the key.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Heracles' agony is what gets Hera to relent, according to Ovid:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Come Juno, feast upon my death;&#xD;&#xA;feast on me, cruel one, look down from your&#xD;&#xA;exalted seat; behold my dreadful end&#xD;&#xA;and glut your savage heart! Oh, if I may&#xD;&#xA;deserve some pity from my enemy,&#xD;&#xA;from you I mean, this hateful life of mine&#xD;&#xA;take from me—sick with cruel suffering&#xD;&#xA;and only born for toil. The loss of life&#xD;&#xA;will be a boon to me, and surely is&#xD;&#xA;a fitting boon, such as stepmothers give!&quot;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[\[Metamorphoses, Book IX\]][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later in the section:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Gods felt fear&#xD;&#xA;for earth's defender and their sympathy&#xD;&#xA;gave pleasure to Saturnian Jove&lt;br&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[\[Metamorphoses, Book IX\]][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And all the gods, including Hera, acquiesce to Heracles deification and release from suffering.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is worth noting that Eliot concludes the Four Quartets with:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And all shall be well and&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;All manner of thing shall be well&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;When the tongues of flame are in-folded&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Into the crowned knot of fire&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And the fire and the rose are one.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Little Gidding][1]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;ON THE DOVE: The dove is a symbol that has many connotations, particularly in the wider scope of Eliot's poem.  The dove is generally associated with Aphrodite (love) but there is evidence of association with Hera also.  (Doves are monogamous during mating season, and monogamy is the domain of Hera.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “…it is significant that the dove was one of Hera’s sacred birds.  Doves were found in association with her temples at Argos and Delos, and related stature even depicts Hera with wings. (O’Brien 1993, 73;178, fig. 22; 227-31)  This iconography and Homer’s characterization of her in the [*Iliad* (5.778-9)][6] as one who moved ‘like a quivering dove” suggest that one of Hera’s early epiphanies may have been as a dove.” &lt;br&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Source: T[he Cult of Divine Birth In Ancient Greece, Rigoglioso, M. 2009, p.129\]][7]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An in-depth discussion on the etymology of Hera may be found in The *[Transformation of Hera: A Study of Ritual, Hero, and the Goddess in the Iliad][8]* by Joan V. O'Brien, Professor of Classics at Southern Illinois University, Carbondale.  The book references the association of Hera with the dove including pp.48, 114, 195, 228, 230, and most notably on page 207: “In the search for submerged images of God, those of the early Hera offer some interesting possibilities: a Soaring Dove bringing birth and death…”  On pp.186-187 O'Brien also links Hera and Aphrodite.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I believe there is also a credible hypothesis that Hera could be a feminine for of the masculine Eros, although I am having difficultly tracking that down at the moment. (When I find an academic reference I will amend.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.columbia.edu/itc/history/winter/w3206/edit/tseliotlittlegidding.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%E1%BF%A6%CF%81&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agape&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eros&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D172&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D5%3Acard%3D764&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://books.google.com/books?id=ifrHAAAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA129&amp;lpg=PA129&amp;dq=hera%20dove&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=kdi7w_H4kE&amp;sig=7dm74SMEaiR3NB1vatUoBM_xmoc&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwje4qq3n9TSAhWL7YMKHYrVD9MQ6AEIUTAM#v=onepage&amp;q=hera%20dove&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://books.google.com/books?id=a77yKM26GfYC&amp;pg=PA114&amp;lpg=PA114&amp;dq=hera%20dove&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=45stBJV4wR&amp;sig=kiFxVAe3olkEO6eqhh26CrK5Lgc&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwj0_ImHodTSAhVl2oMKHYj-DzoQ6AEIRjAK#v=onepage&amp;q=hera%20dove&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10134" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2459" RevisionGUID="c9027bb7-fe68-44c9-b1a6-4f989a87cbb3" CreationDate="2017-03-13T21:16:13.863" UserId="2892" Comment="Tempered my categorization on the influence of Gilgamesh, since, as Gibet notes, it was not &quot;rediscovered&quot; until the 1800s" Text="It would be helpful if you could link to the article.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;High level answer without seeing the article would be the [Upanishads][1] for India, and the [Book of Songs][2] for China.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of the [Mesopotamian material][3], that is very old indeed, but difficult to link directly to existing cultures.  Nevertheless, the [Gilgamesh][4] is believed to be the earliest surviving work of literature and the first epic. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is worth noting that in the Chinese tradition, mythology and history are conflated until the 20th century, so much of the mythology comes out of histories by authors like [Sima Qian][5].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the Indian material, you may find the religious texts difficult to get through, due to the repetitions, but William Buck has excellent translations of the  [Vālmīki Ramayana][6] and [Mahabarata][7] specifically adapted for Westerners interested in the stories. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanishads&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_of_Poetry&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamia&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sima_Qian&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/141152.Ramayana&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/28198285-o-mahabarata" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10138" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2461" RevisionGUID="66153328-4d22-4587-8134-9b96758b94df" CreationDate="2017-03-14T17:15:20.277" UserId="57" Comment="fixed broken link" Text="Two works by [Nonnus of Panopolis][1] survive to this day: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The *[Dionysiaca][2]*, an epic poem about the life of Dionysus,&#xD;&#xA; - The *[Paraphrase of John][3]*, a rewording of the *Gospel of John*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a rare example of an ancient author producing works in different (and perhaps we could even say competing) theological traditions. This is far from certain, but I am assuming Nonnus was immensely interested in Christianity, and may even have practised it while writing the *Dionysiaca*. The subject matter of the *Dionysiaca* alone could hint to an interest in Christianity&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have not read the *Dionysiaca*, and this may be an obvious question to those who have, but I'm wondering if scholars have positively identified Christian influences in the poem. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; Nonnus lived in a time and place where he would be in constant contact with the emerging religion. Given the strong [parallels between the life of Dionysus and the life of Jesus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_comparative_mythology#Greco-Roman_mysteries), the life of Dionysus would have been a relatively accessible Greek mythology topic for Christian audiences.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonnus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysiaca&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonnus#The_Paraphrase_of_John&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10139" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2457" RevisionGUID="a32f3f32-f917-49bb-ba08-faddf9ad9e5f" CreationDate="2017-03-14T17:49:57.673" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="In *Works and Days* Hesiod outlines the successive [Ages of Man][1]. His description of the current times, the Iron Age, includes a doom and gloom prediction of the destruction of mankind at the hands of Zeus&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Zeus will destroy this race of mortal men also when they come to have grey hair on the temples at their birth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Hesiod. The Homeric Hymns and Homerica with an English Translation by Hugh G. Evelyn-White. Works and Days&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm trying to gauge the significance of this doomsday prophecy, within the wider framework of Greek mythology. Is Hesiod's version of the endtimes mentioned elsewhere? Were later authors influenced by it, and did they build upon it? Was Zeus thought of as the eventual destructor of humanity?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; The poet explicitly mentions that Zeus also had a hand in ending the second generation of men, for they had grown arrogant and ignored their sacred obligations to the gods. The first, third and fourth generations apparently died out without divine intervention.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_Man#Hesiod.27s_Five_Ages" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10140" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2463" RevisionGUID="6c07c078-5235-46c8-bed0-4b7696703016" CreationDate="2017-03-15T02:59:10.360" UserId="398" Text="This is an interesting idea. At least Ovid appears to take up the prophecy. After narrating the Gold-Bronze Ages, he quickly glides over the Gigantomachy and then discusses the great flood of Deucalion which Jupiter sent down because of Lycaon's acts ([1.177-380](http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381095)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Plato also embeds the idea in his treatment of it in the *Republic*. There, Socrates, after dividing up the population based on the Myth of Metals, foretells of a time when the Guardians will make errors in their decisions, eventually leading to collapse. This allows him to transition into the treatise on types of government.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Depending on your German, the standard source is Gatz 1967 *Weltalter, goldene Zeit und sinnverwandte Vorstellungen*, or, if you don't know German, you can check out Helen van Noorden's 2014 treatment *Playing Hesiod*." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10141" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2464" RevisionGUID="9384fa72-5888-4201-9a18-70481f9e3e9c" CreationDate="2017-03-15T03:06:54.000" UserId="398" Text="[*Theoi*](http://www.theoi.com/Ther/Khimaira.html) to save the day!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The two earliest Greek works both attest to its general composition:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Homer, Iliad 6. 179 ff (trans. Lattimore) (Greek epic C8th B.C.) :&#xD;&#xA;&quot;First he [King Iobates of Lykia (Lycia)] sent him [Bellerophon] away with orders to kill the Khimaira (Chimera) none might approach; a thing of immortal make, not human, lion-fronted and snake behind, a goat in the middle, and snorting out the breath of the terrible flame of bright fire. He killed the Khimaira, obeying the portents of the immortals.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hesiod, Theogony 319 ff (trans. Evelyn-White) (Greek epic C8th or C7th B.C.) :&#xD;&#xA;&quot;She [Ekhidna (Echidna)] bore the Khimaira (Chimera), who snorted raging fire, a beast great and terrible, and strong and swift-footed. Her heads were three: one was that of a glare-eyed lion, one of a goat, and the third of a snake, a powerful drakon (serpentine-dragon). But Khimaira (Chimera) was killed by Pegasos (Pegasus) and gallant Bellerophon. But she also, in love with Orthos (Orthrus) [the two-headed dog], mothered the deadly Sphinx . . . and the Nemeian Lion.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as early depictions, there are several (still linked) 6th century depictions, and they're all pretty consistent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/VFwSD.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10142" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2465" RevisionGUID="6c285ab0-3342-449f-939d-925bf75121a3" CreationDate="2017-03-15T07:19:07.600" UserId="3564" Text="Very good question!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the ancient vedic texts and in Srimad Bhagavatam (composed about 5000 years ago) in particular, there is a mention of the 7 mothers for a human being who are as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(1) the original mother, &#xD;&#xA;(2) the wife of the teacher or spiritual master, &#xD;&#xA;(3) the wife of a brahmana, &#xD;&#xA;(4) the king's wife, &#xD;&#xA;(5) the cow, &#xD;&#xA;(6) the nurse, &#xD;&#xA;(7) the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From this view point, the cow is not only placed in a very high status but also is considered as a mother. Hence, like a human she is also cared for and protected.&#xD;&#xA;(Refer: http://vaniquotes.org/wiki/Seven_kinds_of_mothers)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The killing of a cow also had serious karmic reactions and hence it was/is considered a great sin. The Vedas declare that the purpose of human life is to evolve spiritually and liberate oneself from the ocean of birth and death. Taking the life of another living entity is not only causing it a great pain but also restricting their own spiritual evolution. Such killing for the sake of personal desires, is considered violence of which killing a brahamana or a cow was considered the highest of crimes. Violence causes the soul to transmigrate from one body to another (life after life), causing it to be tightly bound within the material universe. It's re-entry to the spiritual universe was very much based on (a) seeing/protecting/loving all living beings (2) devotion to God&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The cow is also seen as very important from a medical and health point of view. In Vedas (and Ayurveda), the milk is considered to nourish the brain there-by helping a spiritual student assimilate deep philosophy and similar subject matters. Butter &amp; ghee is used for cooking whereas cow dung was a natural fuel. Cow urine is an important part of ancient medicine and even in today's ayurvedic medicines. Ghee was also an important part of many of the ancient vedic ceremonies. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The cow &amp; the bull was also seen an integral part of a just, peaceful and a non-violent soceity. Here is a statement from Srimad Bhagavatam (Canto 1 Chapter16 Vese 18):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***&quot;The bull and the cow can be protected for the good of all human society simply by the spreading of brahminical culture as the topmost perfection of all cultural affairs. By advancement of such culture, the morale of society is properly maintained, and so peace and prosperity are also attained without extraneous effort.&quot;***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Purport: The bull is the emblem of the moral principle, and the cow is the representative of the earth. When the bull and the cow are in a joyful mood, it is to be understood that the people of the world are also in a joyful mood. The reason is that the bull helps production of grains in the agricultural field, and the cow delivers milk, the miracle of aggregate food values. The human society, therefore, maintains these two important animals very carefully so that they can wander everywhere in cheerfulness. But at the present moment in this age of Kali both the bull and the cow are now being slaughtered and eaten up as foodstuff by a class of men who do not know the brahminical culture. The bull and the cow can be protected for the good of all human society simply by the spreading of brahminical culture as the topmost perfection of all cultural affairs. By advancement of such culture, the morale of society is properly maintained, and so peace and prosperity are also attained without extraneous effort. When brahminical culture deteriorates, the cow and bull are mistreated, and the resultant actions are prominent by the following symptoms.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Refer more statements here: http://vaniquotes.org/wiki/Brahminical_culture_and_cow_protection)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, devout Hindus see the cow as a great object of affection for Lord Krishna. Infact, in His earthly pastimes and in His eternal pastimes in His own spiritual planet, He is seen to spend a great deal of time with the cowherd families of Vrindhavan. In books realted to Krishna, He is often described to be surrounded by millions of cows, chanting their names and taking them out for grazing everyday. He is famously known as &quot;Govinda&quot;, the well-wisher of the cows. Hindus and eastern spiritualists, often protect the cow from this angle as well, as they want to follow in the footsteps of Lord Krishna, whom they have devoted their own lives too.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That's all I can think of for now and hope I have contributed in some way." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10143" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2305" RevisionGUID="31d34f07-f389-4b09-bbae-7cff0ed418f5" CreationDate="2017-03-15T09:24:01.473" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="|hindu|animals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10144" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2466" RevisionGUID="b18005c5-1ce5-4825-85d6-79d42eeec54d" CreationDate="2017-03-15T11:45:03.623" UserId="57" Text="I recently learned of [Geras][1], the personification of old age. The deity is primarily known from vase depictions that show him with Heracles. One example is this [Attic red-figured neck-amphora][2]&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Pottery: red-figured neck-amphora: Herakles and Geras. Reverse: youth. 1772,0320.423, AN283151001][3]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately, the mythic story of Heracles fighting off Geras has not survived. I'm wondering, however, if there are other stories of a hero or god&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; fighting off old age, especially in cultures that would be aware of the Heracles mythos. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I realise it will not be possible to say that these stories - if they even exist - contain traces of the Heracles and Geras story, but I thought it would be a fun exercise to collect them and get at least a faint idea of what a Heracles fighting off Geras story might have been.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; British Museum, 1772,0320.423  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; Heracles is both, so we can't limit this to heroes.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Geras.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=460766&amp;partId=1&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/fk54O.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10145" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2466" RevisionGUID="b18005c5-1ce5-4825-85d6-79d42eeec54d" CreationDate="2017-03-15T11:45:03.623" UserId="57" Text="Are there stories of a hero or god fighting off old age?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10146" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2466" RevisionGUID="b18005c5-1ce5-4825-85d6-79d42eeec54d" CreationDate="2017-03-15T11:45:03.623" UserId="57" Text="|comparative|hercules|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10147" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2467" RevisionGUID="16bacc1d-fded-417c-b0e4-be652a132751" CreationDate="2017-03-15T11:45:03.623" UserId="57" Text="The one story that I found while researching the question, is the obscure story of Thor wrestling [Elli][1]&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; in the *Gylfaginning*: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And again he said: Let me see first! Call hither that old woman, Elle, my foster-mother, and let Thor wrestle with her if he wants to. She has thrown to the ground men who have seemed to me no less strong than Thor. Then there came into the hall an old woman. Utgard-Loke bade her take a wrestle with Asa-Thor. The tale is not long. The result of the grapple was, that the more Thor tightened his grasp, the firmer she stood. Then the woman began to bestir herself, and Thor lost his footing. They had some very hard tussles, and before long Thor was brought down on one knee. Then Utgard-Loke stepped forward, bade them cease the wrestling, and added that Thor did not need to challenge anybody else to wrestle with him in his hall, besides it was now getting late. He showed Thor, and his companions to seats, and they spent the night there enjoying the best of hospitality.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Prose Edda/Gylfaginning. (2013, January 29). In Wikisource . Retrieved 11:21, March 15, 2017, from https://en.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning&amp;oldid=4271175&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tacitus mentions in *Germania* that Hercules was venerated by the Germanic people. Therefore the possibility that this story was partially inspired by the Heracles - Geras story cannot be dismissed, even if it's a very slim one. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, we can't ignore that Elli is female and that Thor loses the fight. Both these details do not fit a and Heracles - Geras story. Geras is obviously male, and Heracles would usually win his battles with deities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; This story is also notable for being an early record of [Glima][2], the martial arts system of the Vikings.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elli&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glima" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10148" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2467" RevisionGUID="59a5f675-db76-4c7c-aedf-e7419403b0ea" CreationDate="2017-03-15T12:10:16.153" UserId="57" Comment="added 19 characters in body" Text="The one story that I found while researching the question, is the obscure story of Thor wrestling [Elli][1]&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; in the *Gylfaginning*: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And again he said: Let me see first! Call hither that old woman, Elle, my foster-mother, and let Thor wrestle with her if he wants to. She has thrown to the ground men who have seemed to me no less strong than Thor. Then there came into the hall an old woman. Utgard-Loke bade her take a wrestle with Asa-Thor. The tale is not long. The result of the grapple was, that the more Thor tightened his grasp, the firmer she stood. Then the woman began to bestir herself, and Thor lost his footing. They had some very hard tussles, and before long Thor was brought down on one knee. Then Utgard-Loke stepped forward, bade them cease the wrestling, and added that Thor did not need to challenge anybody else to wrestle with him in his hall, besides it was now getting late. He showed Thor, and his companions to seats, and they spent the night there enjoying the best of hospitality.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Prose Edda/Gylfaginning. (2013, January 29). In Wikisource . Retrieved 11:21, March 15, 2017, from https://en.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning&amp;oldid=4271175&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tacitus mentions in *Germania* that Hercules was venerated by the Germanic people. Therefore the possibility that this story was partially inspired by a hypothetical Heracles fighting off Geras story cannot be dismissed, even if it's a very slim one. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, we can't ignore that Elli is female and that Thor loses the fight, neither detail fits a Heracles fighting off Geras story. Geras is obviously male, and Heracles would usually win his battles with deities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; This story is also notable for being an early record of [Glima][2], the martial arts system of the Vikings.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elli&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glima" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10151" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2467" RevisionGUID="048e4e75-0133-4845-8caa-3e9e9934c46b" CreationDate="2017-03-15T16:16:07.780" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 8 characters in body" Text="The one story that I found while researching the question, is the story of Thor wrestling [Elli][1]&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; in the *Gylfaginning*: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And again he said: Let me see first! Call hither that old woman, Elle, my foster-mother, and let Thor wrestle with her if he wants to. She has thrown to the ground men who have seemed to me no less strong than Thor. Then there came into the hall an old woman. Utgard-Loke bade her take a wrestle with Asa-Thor. The tale is not long. The result of the grapple was, that the more Thor tightened his grasp, the firmer she stood. Then the woman began to bestir herself, and Thor lost his footing. They had some very hard tussles, and before long Thor was brought down on one knee. Then Utgard-Loke stepped forward, bade them cease the wrestling, and added that Thor did not need to challenge anybody else to wrestle with him in his hall, besides it was now getting late. He showed Thor, and his companions to seats, and they spent the night there enjoying the best of hospitality.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Prose Edda/Gylfaginning. (2013, January 29). In Wikisource . Retrieved 11:21, March 15, 2017, from https://en.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning&amp;oldid=4271175&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tacitus mentions in *Germania* that Hercules was venerated by the Germanic people. Therefore the possibility that this story was partially inspired by a hypothetical Heracles fighting off Geras story cannot be dismissed, even if it's a very slim one. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, we can't ignore that Elli is female and that Thor loses the fight, neither detail fits a Heracles fighting off Geras story. Geras is obviously male, and Heracles would usually win his battles with deities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; This story is also notable for being an early record of [Glima][2], the martial arts system of the Vikings.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elli&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glima" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10152" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2467" RevisionGUID="52481748-c87e-49e4-8ed0-532fb1cafa2f" CreationDate="2017-03-15T16:46:20.217" UserId="57" Comment="added 424 characters in body" Text="The one story that I found while researching the question, is the story of Thor wrestling [Elli][1]&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; in the *Gylfaginning*: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And again he said: Let me see first! Call hither that old woman, Elle, my foster-mother, and let Thor wrestle with her if he wants to. She has thrown to the ground men who have seemed to me no less strong than Thor. Then there came into the hall an old woman. Utgard-Loke bade her take a wrestle with Asa-Thor. The tale is not long. The result of the grapple was, that the more Thor tightened his grasp, the firmer she stood. Then the woman began to bestir herself, and Thor lost his footing. They had some very hard tussles, and before long Thor was brought down on one knee. Then Utgard-Loke stepped forward, bade them cease the wrestling, and added that Thor did not need to challenge anybody else to wrestle with him in his hall, besides it was now getting late. He showed Thor, and his companions to seats, and they spent the night there enjoying the best of hospitality.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Prose Edda/Gylfaginning. (2013, January 29). In Wikisource . Retrieved 11:21, March 15, 2017, from https://en.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning&amp;oldid=4271175&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tacitus mentions in *Germania* that Hercules was venerated by the Germanic people. The more likely explanation is that Tacitus meant Thor, and this is an instance of *interpretatio romana*, as andejons notes in the comments and Semaphore in a [related answer][2]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, temples dedicated to a syncretic Hercules Magusanus have been found in the Batavian region, which tells us that at least some Germanic people found Hercules interesting enough. The possibility that the Thor and Elli story was partially inspired by a Heracles and Geras story is certainly very slim, but I don't think it can be entirely dismissed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, we can't ignore that Elli is female and that Thor loses the fight. Neither detail fits a Heracles fighting off Geras story: Geras is obviously male, and Heracles would usually win his battles with deities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; This story is also notable for being an early record of [Glima][3], the martial arts system of the Vikings.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elli&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/212/57&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glima" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10153" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2468" RevisionGUID="c7e55b63-d251-4d3b-ba19-3cc80feec53a" CreationDate="2017-03-15T17:38:01.197" UserId="3530" Text="Open question for thoughts, comments, explanations re Odysseus’ raid on the Cicones (also called Kikonians) while on his way home from the Trojan War, including but not limited to any of my questions below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Homer’s Odyssey Book 9, Odysseus tells his Phaeacian hosts of his adventures while returning victorious from Troy, beginning with how, leading his men home in 12 ships (I have added 3 explanatory notes I have researched):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“From Ilium [Troy] storms blew me to the Cicones*, to Ismaros. There, I sacked* the town and put the men to the sword. And we took the wives* and much loot out of the town to divide among us, and I did my best to see that every man received his proper share.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Notes:&#xD;&#xA;The “Cicones” are a people of that region listed in Homer’s Iliad Book 2 as sending warriors to reinforce the Trojans. They are not mentioned again in the Iliad so presumably their part in the War was minor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“Sacked” - Ancient Greek ‘portheo’;  to devastate, ruin; used of a conquered town in those days it would generally be taken to include plundering it, slaying many people and enslaving many more. For the losing side, it was total catastrophe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“Wives” Greek ‘alochous’, from words for lying down together; it often means ‘wives’, but can mean or include concubines &amp; mistresses.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odysseus adds that he thought it best to leave quickly but his men insisted on staying to feast on captured wine, cattle and sheep on the beach. They were still there the next day when more Cicones arrived from inland, summoned by fugitives from Odysseus’ raid who ran to them and ‘made a great cry’. These new Cicones were “better men, more numerous and more skilled in war”. They gave battle. The Greeks put up a long fight but lost over 70 men and had to flee to their ships. After commemorating their dead, they sailed away unpursued.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This raid is referred to 3 further times in the Odyssey. In Book 9, at lines 164-168 Odysseus and his men enjoy wine captured  in the raid and at 197-210 he says that in the raid out of respect for the god, he protected Maron, a priest of Apollo living near the town, and Maron’s family, from harm. In return, Maron gave Odysseus fine gifts of gold, silver and strong wine. The wine is useful in the story of the Cyclops. In Book 23 lines 310-311 when Odysseus is finally home he tells his wife Penelope of his many adventures, beginning with his overcoming the city of the Cicones, so he presumably does not expect her to disapprove of his raid.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any thoughts, comments or explanations to any of this, on any point(s) below or anything else that occurs to you? (“That’s just how it was in those days” may be a valid answer to some questions, but please don’t assume it without some evidence or reasoning!)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Why does Homer include this incident? Does it add anything to the story? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. How did Odysseus take Ismaros and eliminate its men so easily? He does not mention losing a single man doing so, but he does tell us when he loses men in the battle the next day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. Did Odysseus sack Ismaros because of the Trojan War, or was it normal and OK to do this to any foreign town, given the opportunity? The Greeks sacked other Trojan allies’ towns in the War, gaining plunder and slaves. However, there was then a military need to eliminate enemy allies and capture supplies. There seems no need to attack Ismaros. The Trojan War is already won, Troy destroyed and Odysseus and his men already have plunder from Troy and are supposedly tired of war and eager for home.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. a) The one reference to the women of Ismaros in the passage above: “We took the wives and much loot out of the town to divide among us” is the only mention of them in the Odyssey.  Do we assume hundreds (?) of these unfortunate Ciconian “wives” (actually all now widows) are present as slaves, presumably to be servants and concubines, on Odysseus’ ships in all the later adventures until the ships are lost but are not considered worth mentioning?  If not, what happened to them?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;b) Does the same explanation apply to the fact that in the Sack of Troy, the Greeks/ Achaeans are supposed to have enslaved Trojan women in large numbers as booty of war, yet there is no mention anywhere in the Odyssey of such women being on Odysseus’ ships?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;c) If captured Trojan or Ciconian slaves and women are on board, presumably they die along with the crews when the ships are lost, but again their fate is not important enough to mention?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;5. Thoughts about the position of Maron and his wife, giving gifts to Odysseus even as he and his warriors kill or carry off into slavery all their neighbours?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10154" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2468" RevisionGUID="c7e55b63-d251-4d3b-ba19-3cc80feec53a" CreationDate="2017-03-15T17:38:01.197" UserId="3530" Text="Comments re Odysseus raid on the Cicones at Ismaros (Odyssey Book 9 lines 40-66)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10155" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2468" RevisionGUID="c7e55b63-d251-4d3b-ba19-3cc80feec53a" CreationDate="2017-03-15T17:38:01.197" UserId="3530" Text="|greek|odyssey|homer|trojan-war|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10160" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2034" RevisionGUID="7f23eead-f037-4cbd-83f2-5ee135476477" CreationDate="2017-03-15T18:03:40.237" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="10162" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2469" RevisionGUID="9cb7f5b6-90d1-4cfb-b474-d75b89385049" CreationDate="2017-03-15T20:31:59.847" UserId="2807" Text="The history of Perseus begins with the oracle of Delphi, when the King of Argos is told that one day a son of his own daughter will kill him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Being Perseus one of the most ancient Greek mythological heroes, I wonder if this is the first time the oracle of Delphi appears in Greek mythology, besides of course the myths of Zeus finding the center of the world and Apollo slaying Python.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does Delphi appear in any other myths giving oracles before this one of Perseus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10163" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2469" RevisionGUID="9cb7f5b6-90d1-4cfb-b474-d75b89385049" CreationDate="2017-03-15T20:31:59.847" UserId="2807" Text="First appearance of the Delphi Oracle in Greek myths" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10164" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2469" RevisionGUID="9cb7f5b6-90d1-4cfb-b474-d75b89385049" CreationDate="2017-03-15T20:31:59.847" UserId="2807" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10165" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2469" RevisionGUID="78c55839-7024-4ebe-bdc3-26cf90b6f1cb" CreationDate="2017-03-15T23:32:13.237" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10166" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2470" RevisionGUID="5186ea32-fa85-42d1-86e4-181898f5c5ec" CreationDate="2017-03-15T23:44:54.633" UserId="3564" Text="In the ancient Eastern historical accounts of great kings, there is a mention of King Yayati who was cursed to become old &amp; invalid. However, he was able to exchange his old age for youth from his youngest son, Puru. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A detailed description of the entire story can be found in Srimad Bhagavatam (spoken &amp; compiled about 5,000 years ago) - **Canto 9, Chapter 16 - King Yayati regains his youth.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found this web link for you which has the full description, verses and translations: http://www.vedabase.com/en/sb/9/18 &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Very interesting story and hope my contribution helps." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10167" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2470" RevisionGUID="d36caf50-da93-4605-8165-096b0c7d7666" CreationDate="2017-03-16T00:34:13.813" UserId="3564" Comment="edited body" Text="In the ancient Eastern historical accounts of great kings, there is a mention of King Yayati who was cursed to become old &amp; invalid. However, he was able to exchange his old age for youth from his youngest son, Puru. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A detailed description of the entire story can be found in Srimad Bhagavatam (spoken &amp; compiled about 5,000 years ago) - **Canto 9, Chapter 18 - King Yayati regains his youth.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found this web link for you which has the full description, verses and translations: http://www.vedabase.com/en/sb/9/18 &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Very interesting story and hope my contribution helps." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10168" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2471" RevisionGUID="ad00378f-3c62-464c-829c-7c9c3ed08d9d" CreationDate="2017-03-16T01:27:31.520" UserId="3560" Text="While researching La Llorona and vampiresses, I noticed that lots of cultures have predominantly female monsters that use deception to prey on families. Lamia that prey on young men and children, deer women that seduce and kill young men, incubi that seduce and impregnate young women, aswang that prey on children and pregnant women, revenants of stillbirths and women who died in childbirth, mothers that seek vengeance for lost children or treasonous husbands, demonesses that cause miscarriage and stillbirth, ghouls or aswang that consume dead relatives, mysterious wives that turn out to be ghouls or aswang, mysterious husbands that turn out to be alligator men, mullo and strigoi that target former family, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All of these monsters revolve around a common theme of losing family, particularly in ways that pervert the typical growth of family. Children die in the womb, at birth, or before adolescence. Spouses, adolescents and young adults are seduced away and either killed or defiled, even forced to bear demonic offspring. Mothers die in pregnancy or childbirth. The deceased are desecrated or return from the grave. Loved ones turn out to have been literal monsters the whole time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is this such a common and enduring theme around the world? Why are the patterns so regular?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10169" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2471" RevisionGUID="ad00378f-3c62-464c-829c-7c9c3ed08d9d" CreationDate="2017-03-16T01:27:31.520" UserId="3560" Text="Why do so many cultures have monsters that prey on families?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10170" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2471" RevisionGUID="ad00378f-3c62-464c-829c-7c9c3ed08d9d" CreationDate="2017-03-16T01:27:31.520" UserId="3560" Text="|comparative|folklore|vampires|monsters|metaphors|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10171" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2472" RevisionGUID="34cb1a4e-63be-446e-aeb1-f49b2150b08e" CreationDate="2017-03-16T01:39:40.277" UserId="399" Text="According with Michael Grant &amp; John Hazel (1):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Acca Larentia] Wife of Faustulus, the shepherd who found the abandoned twins Romulus and Remus and brought them up. Since the babies had been suckled by a she-wolf, Acca was named lupa, witch has a double meaning in Latin: &quot;whore&quot; as well as &quot;she-wolf&quot;. Acca was also sometimes called Faula or Fabula, another designation of harlots in Latin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But this you already know, by Wikipedia.&#xD;&#xA;What, then, is the she-wolf's relationship with Laurentia?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According with Kathleen N. Daly and Marian Rengel (2), Acca Larentia has two faces in roman mythology:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A minar divinity, perhaps originating in Etruria, honored in Rome during the annual festival of the Laurentalia, held on December 23. Known commonly as Larentia, this goddess appeared to have an association with the world of the dead and the early role of the Lares, guardian spirits of the dead. Scholars studying Roman writers agree that the god existed first and then, as Roman culture developed, stories grew up around Acca Larentia to explain her role in their culture.&#xD;&#xA;The oldest stories say that Larentia was the wife of the shepherd Faustulus, who found and brought to her the twins Romulus and Remus, so that she could nurse them and raise them as her own. **She was also believed to have been a prostitute, who changed her life and became revered as a saint, for the root of her name, *lupa*, means both she-wolf and whore. Through these similarities, it became convenient to connect this ancient goddess with the mythology surrounding these prominent twins, who, sons of Mars, were rescued by a she-wolf form the Tiber River and went on to found Rome.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A prostitute with whom the god Hercules spent the night in a Roman temple, after the priest of that temple played dice with the great hero and god and lost. Acca Larentia was the beautiful woman the priest found on the street and locked in the temple as a prize for Hercules.&#xD;&#xA;After enjoying the night with her, Hercules told Acca Larentia to approach and be friendly with the first wealthy man she met upon leaving the temple. Some Roman writers say that Hercules influenced the man; others say that Acca Larentia used tricks of her trade to win his affections. As her role in the story of Rome continues, Acca Larentia married the rich man, and when he died, leaving her all of his wealth, she gave the fortune to Rome, the city she loved.&#xD;&#xA;Ancient Roman writers and modern scholars are unsure of this story with Acca Larentia who became the foster mother to Romulus and Remus. Some say it was the same woman; others say that familiarity with her name made it an easy one to give to the woman in this story from the Hercules legends.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can understand, therefore, that there's a relationship between the she-wolf that fed Romulus and Remus and Acca Larentia.&#xD;&#xA;This link between these two personalities is had by the word *Lupa*, used to refer prostitutes, also translated as she-wolf.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The prostitute - *corpus in vulgus dabat*-  was the wife of Faustulus, the shepherd who found the twins by the water's edge. Her name was Acca Larentia, but the called her Lupa because she slept around. [..] Writing to Brutus after Caesar's murder, Cicero says that he, Brutus, like Acca Larentia, ought to be granted public sacrifice and a place on the ritual calendar. (3)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Roman scholars themselves make this reference between the animal and the woman, even if contradictory as to the literal reference and representation (as she-wolf) and the shepherd's wife.&#xD;&#xA;Still, some say that the prostitute who met with Hercules and the she-wolf are the same person. However, this version is even more hazy. Thus, the two stories about Acca Larentia has common features. In both she was a prostitute. In each she performed a service to the state. In one she nurtured its founder, in the other she enriched its citizens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Plutarch, however, connected the two traditions by recording of the death of the courtesan, that she disappeared at the same place where Romulus' nurse was buried. Afterwards, he says, they discovered her will in which she had left her large fortune to the Roman people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**References:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(1) GRANT, Michael; HAZEL, John. Who's who in Classical Mythology. 3. ed.: Routledge, 2001.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(2) DALY, Kathleen N.; RENGEL, Marian. Greek and Roman Mythology, A to Z. 1. ed.: Infobase Publishing, 2009.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(3) STAPLES, Ariadne. From Good Goddess to Vestal Virgins: Sex and Category in Roman Religion. 1 ed.: Routledge, 2013." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10173" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2473" RevisionGUID="167d88b8-ab97-4a63-b2a8-4c7ed0cdddce" CreationDate="2017-03-16T05:30:23.803" UserId="399" Text="First I think that's important look for the beginning of the myth of Yellow Emperor, based in literary evidences.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;He's referenced as an &quot;divine hero&quot; by Birell in the book Chinese Mythology: An Introduction (1). Later, she says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This concept [*axis mundi*] has been particularly rewarding in discussing symbolic opposites, such as Ch'ih Yu and the Yellow Emperor, or the failed hero, Kun, and his successgul son, the hero Yu the Great. [..] One of the seminal theories of Georges Dumézil on dual sovereignty or joint rule (1940) has been helpful in recognizing and elucidating the complex myth of the **divine (half-)brothers**, the Yellow Emperor and the Flame Emperor, who each ruled half of the world but who later fought for total supremacy&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Birell continues:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The god called the Yellow Emperor played a minor role in the early tradition, but he gradually acquired a complex biography, an elaborate genealogy, and a cycle of folklorist legends that gave him an exalted status in the divine pantheon. Although **later tradition made him the supreme deity of the Taoist pantheon**, when philosophical Taoism had acquired a more religious coloration and was espoused by imperial rulers, and although traditional histories have presented this god as the pacific culture bearer, the early tradition clearly shows that the Yellow Emperor (HUang Ti) is first and foremost a warrior-god who successfully fought against a series of enemies - the Flame Emperor, Ch'ih Yu the god K'uei. **For the Han historian Ssu-ma Ch'ien, the Yellow Emperor symbolized the fountainhead of Chinese culture and civilization**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Has a many of stories about the Yellow Emperor, such as &quot;The battle between the Yellow Emperor and the Flame Emperor&quot;, in which each of them reigned under one part of the world and fought for the total supremacy. And the battle between Ch'ih Yu, the god of war attacks the Yellow Emperor, from *The Classic of Mountains and Seas*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;About what kind of god he was, Cho-yun Hsu (2), says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Yellow Emperor is the ruler of mankind, and he bears the responsibility for overseeing the world and giving birth to culture. He is at the same time a deity and a controller of deities, able to dispatch gods and demons on his missions and with the superhuman powers calling the winds and summoning the rain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For McDermott (3), the Yellow Emperor&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; had more than merely thematic ties to the sacrifices. In the *Shi ji*, a major impetus to Emperor Wu's decision to perform the sacrifices was the discovery of an inscribed vessel supposedly cast by the Yellow Emperor pior to his performance of the *feng* and *shan*, which resulted in his ascent to Heaven as an imortal. It stated that the Yellow Emperor alone amongst the seventy-two rulers who had attempted the sacrifices had actually completed them.&#xD;&#xA;In Warring States and Han mythology the Yellow Emperor was a god of war and storm who originated in the states of Qi and Qin, as well as a demon queller who figured in the travel sacrifice, the funeral procession, and the ritual of exorcism. He was also a major divinity of the imortality cults and the medical schools of the period. Thus he embodied many of the aspects of the *feng* and *shan* sacrifices: conquest, procession, immortality, and elements of mountain cult.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The hierarchy of the spirit realm was ruled by a supreme deity known variously as the Celestial Thearch (or &quot;Emperor&quot;), the Yellow Thearch, or the Yellow God Northern Dipper. The Northern Dipper was both the celestial palace of the Yellow Emperor and his spirit progenitor, and Ban Gu identified the Yellow God with the Yellow Emperor, so it is virtually certain that all three names referred to a single divinity. This god and his officials dwelt in four constellatons from which they observed human conduct and distributed rewards and punishments.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Through the texts of Taoism and the mythology of Qi and Qin, it is understood that the Yellow Emperor was a supreme deity of the pantheon of gods.&#xD;&#xA;Many sources cite that he created the friction technique to generate fire and passed it on to humans. This and other inventions are attributed to the god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, on the humanity and ascent of the Yellow Emperor, for Allan and Phillips (4), the Yellow Emperor is &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the China's greatest mythical sovereign and the legendary ancestor of the Chinese people. The tale comes from *Seven Tome from the Cloudy Shelf* by the Daoist Wang Chuan of the Tang dynasty (618-906). By that time the **Yellow Emperor, known as Huang Di**, had been revered as the supreme Chinese deity for many centuries. Earlier, in his *Historical Records*, the Han historian Sima Qian (c. 145-c.86 bce) had traced the history of Chinese civilization and established the Yellow Emperor as the great forefather and propagator of Chinese culture.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; After defeating Yan Di, Huang Di became chief of the gods, assuming overall authority as God of the Center. Was also said to have been the first ruler to establish and organize religious ceremony in China. According to some accounts, Huang Di, or Xian Yuan, was given a pull that granted immortality by Tai Yi Huang Ren, the spirit of a mountain in Shichuan Province. Huang Di visited the peak with Chi Jiang Ziyou, who stayed on to serve the mountain god, surviving on the flowers that grew on the gently sloping sides of the peak and gradually losing his Earthly body in favor of a heavenly one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;**References:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(1) BIRRELL, Anne. Chinese Mythology: An Introduction. 1 ed.: JHU Press, 1999.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(2) HSU, Cho-yun. China: A New Cultural History. Columbia University Press, 2012.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(3) MCDERMOTT, Joseph P.. State and Court Ritual in China. Cambridge University, 1999. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(4) ALLAN, Tony; PHILLIPS, Charles. Ancient China's Myths and Beliefs. The Rosen Publishing Group, 2011." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10174" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2466" RevisionGUID="5697e00d-d9d8-4416-940e-60e8a06c5bb7" CreationDate="2017-03-16T08:04:35.433" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|comparative|hercules|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10175" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2474" RevisionGUID="2c09e132-c0f3-403f-af87-d5b40035156c" CreationDate="2017-03-16T12:12:14.930" UserId="57" Text="The following quote is from the [Wikipedia article on the Twelve Olympians][1]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hebe, Helios, Selene, Eos, Eros and Persephone are other important gods and goddesses who are sometimes included in a group of twelve. Eros is often depicted alongside the other twelve, especially his mother Aphrodite, but not usually counted in their number.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Twelve Olympians. (2017, March 13). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 12:05, March 16, 2017, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Twelve_Olympians&amp;oldid=770150180&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately, no sources are identified for the claim (which is in fact marked with [citation-needed]). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do we know what groups of twelve the quote may be referring to?&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Olympians#Membership" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10176" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2474" RevisionGUID="2c09e132-c0f3-403f-af87-d5b40035156c" CreationDate="2017-03-16T12:12:14.930" UserId="57" Text="In what groups of twelve gods did Hebe, Helios, Selene, Eos, Eros and Persephone appear?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10177" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2474" RevisionGUID="2c09e132-c0f3-403f-af87-d5b40035156c" CreationDate="2017-03-16T12:12:14.930" UserId="57" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10178" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="282" RevisionGUID="6a8003e2-b432-410d-8536-4037e013cb80" CreationDate="2017-03-16T13:12:46.343" UserId="967" Comment="44" />
  <row Id="10179" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="867" RevisionGUID="a031409c-88dc-4cda-b59c-a08430885bb9" CreationDate="2017-03-16T15:30:29.423" UserId="183" Comment="45" />
  <row Id="10182" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="925" RevisionGUID="fd711fe5-e9b7-4784-b96f-630eb4bbc679" CreationDate="2017-03-16T16:43:22.877" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://meta.mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.meta.stackexchange.com/" Text="I'm reading the Gylfaginning as part of our site's [myth of the month][1] challenge, and I noticed the following line:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; How was the earth fashioned? Made answer Har: The earth is round, and without it round about lies the deep ocean, and along the outer strand of that sea they gave lands for the giant races to dwell in; and against the attack of restless giants they built a burg within the sea and around the earth. For this purpose they used the giant Ymer's eyebrows, and they called the burg Midgard. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the Norse understanding of geography at the time, where does that put the giants? Did they stay there all the time?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/263/myth-of-the-month-1-gylfaginning" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10183" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1132" RevisionGUID="1c93a5ac-49bd-46ae-a14a-a2266d283284" CreationDate="2017-03-16T16:43:22.877" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://meta.mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.meta.stackexchange.com/" Text="I would like to learn more about mythology, but I'm unsure where to start. Could anyone recommend some good websites or books for me to take a look at?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Related meta discussion: https://mythology.meta.stackexchange.com/q/292/62*" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10184" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2421" RevisionGUID="a69b4c1f-b4da-4364-83e0-5dd35ef5b6d8" CreationDate="2017-03-16T16:43:22.877" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://meta.mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.meta.stackexchange.com/" Text="I'm relatively a beginner at mythology, but what difference does a different translation make? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As per [this post][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Only a single translation of a given passage is offered[, which could lead to a different idea].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Well, when I learn french, some people in my class may get some words or syntax wrong, but the class gets the general idea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Two translations would come from the same primary source, so there shouldn't be much confusion, right?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/395/should-we-be-more-measured-in-how-we-regard-theoi?cb=1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10188" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="2121" RevisionGUID="b4afb726-75b9-4bdc-bed9-468dc60e8134" CreationDate="2017-03-16T20:25:53.760" UserId="-1" Comment="43" />
  <row Id="10189" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2476" RevisionGUID="a28091f6-0f67-4b15-8073-fd53ba31f7cd" CreationDate="2017-03-17T01:49:06.000" UserId="3568" Text="Ulysses, by Tennyson&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It little profits that an idle king, &#xD;&#xA;By this still hearth, among these barren crags, &#xD;&#xA;Match'd with an aged wife, I mete and dole &#xD;&#xA;Unequal laws unto a savage race, &#xD;&#xA;That hoard, and sleep, and feed, and know not me. &#xD;&#xA;I cannot rest from travel: I will drink &#xD;&#xA;Life to the lees: All times I have enjoy'd &#xD;&#xA;Greatly, have suffer'd greatly, both with those &#xD;&#xA;That loved me, and alone, on shore, and when &#xD;&#xA;Thro' scudding drifts the rainy Hyades &#xD;&#xA;Vext the dim sea: I am become a name; &#xD;&#xA;For always roaming with a hungry heart &#xD;&#xA;Much have I seen and known; cities of men &#xD;&#xA;And manners, climates, councils, governments, &#xD;&#xA;Myself not least, but honour'd of them all; &#xD;&#xA;And drunk delight of battle with my peers, &#xD;&#xA;Far on the ringing plains of windy Troy. &#xD;&#xA;I am a part of all that I have met; &#xD;&#xA;Yet all experience is an arch wherethro' &#xD;&#xA;Gleams that untravell'd world whose margin fades &#xD;&#xA;For ever and forever when I move. &#xD;&#xA;How dull it is to pause, to make an end, &#xD;&#xA;To rust unburnish'd, not to shine in use! &#xD;&#xA;As tho' to breathe were life! Life piled on life &#xD;&#xA;Were all too little, and of one to me &#xD;&#xA;Little remains: but every hour is saved &#xD;&#xA;From that eternal silence, something more, &#xD;&#xA;A bringer of new things; and vile it were &#xD;&#xA;For some three suns to store and hoard myself, &#xD;&#xA;And this gray spirit yearning in desire &#xD;&#xA;To follow knowledge like a sinking star, &#xD;&#xA;Beyond the utmost bound of human thought. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;         This is my son, mine own Telemachus, &#xD;&#xA;To whom I leave the sceptre and the isle,— &#xD;&#xA;Well-loved of me, discerning to fulfil &#xD;&#xA;This labour, by slow prudence to make mild &#xD;&#xA;A rugged people, and thro' soft degrees &#xD;&#xA;Subdue them to the useful and the good. &#xD;&#xA;Most blameless is he, centred in the sphere &#xD;&#xA;Of common duties, decent not to fail &#xD;&#xA;In offices of tenderness, and pay &#xD;&#xA;Meet adoration to my household gods, &#xD;&#xA;When I am gone. He works his work, I mine. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;         There lies the port; the vessel puffs her sail: &#xD;&#xA;There gloom the dark, broad seas. My mariners, &#xD;&#xA;Souls that have toil'd, and wrought, and thought with me— &#xD;&#xA;That ever with a frolic welcome took &#xD;&#xA;The thunder and the sunshine, and opposed &#xD;&#xA;Free hearts, free foreheads—you and I are old; &#xD;&#xA;Old age hath yet his honour and his toil; &#xD;&#xA;Death closes all: but something ere the end, &#xD;&#xA;Some work of noble note, may yet be done, &#xD;&#xA;Not unbecoming men that strove with Gods. &#xD;&#xA;The lights begin to twinkle from the rocks: &#xD;&#xA;The long day wanes: the slow moon climbs: the deep &#xD;&#xA;Moans round with many voices. Come, my friends, &#xD;&#xA;'T is not too late to seek a newer world. &#xD;&#xA;Push off, and sitting well in order smite &#xD;&#xA;The sounding furrows; for my purpose holds &#xD;&#xA;To sail beyond the sunset, and the baths &#xD;&#xA;Of all the western stars, until I die. &#xD;&#xA;It may be that the gulfs will wash us down: &#xD;&#xA;It may be we shall touch the Happy Isles, &#xD;&#xA;And see the great Achilles, whom we knew. &#xD;&#xA;Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho' &#xD;&#xA;We are not now that strength which in old days &#xD;&#xA;Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are; &#xD;&#xA;One equal temper of heroic hearts, &#xD;&#xA;Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will &#xD;&#xA;To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10190" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2474" RevisionGUID="2d1afd6d-b55b-4922-a1f0-52e2c1e9deb5" CreationDate="2017-03-17T09:15:30.240" UserId="57" Comment="added 243 characters in body" Text="The following quote is from the [Wikipedia article on the Twelve Olympians][1]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hebe, Helios, Selene, Eos, Eros and Persephone are other important gods and goddesses who are sometimes included in a group of twelve. Eros is often depicted alongside the other twelve, especially his mother Aphrodite, but not usually counted in their number.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Twelve Olympians. (2017, March 13). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 12:05, March 16, 2017, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Twelve_Olympians&amp;oldid=770150180&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately, no sources are identified for the claim (which is in fact marked with [citation-needed]). I am assuming here that &quot;group of twelve&quot; does _not_ refer to one of the multiple configurations of the twelve Olympians. With the possible exception of Persephone, the other gods mentioned in the quote are not typically considered Olympians. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do we know what groups of twelve the quote may be referring to?&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Olympians#Membership" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10191" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2477" RevisionGUID="4974529a-1af5-492e-ba3c-7b8edc966dce" CreationDate="2017-03-17T09:23:07.430" UserId="3508" Text="It's not magical, but the Svartálfar also made Sif's hair.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sk%C3%AD%C3%B0bla%C3%B0nir &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In **chapter 96**, a myth explaining Skíðblaðnir's creation is provided. The chapter details that the god Loki once cut off the goddess's Sif's hair in an act of mischief. Sif's husband, Thor, enraged, found Loki, caught hold of him, and threatened to break every last bone in his body. **Loki promises to have the Svartálfar make Sif a new head of hair that will grow just as any other. Loki goes to the dwarfs known as Ivaldi's sons, and they made not only Sif a new head of gold hair** but also Skíðblaðnir and the spear Gungnir. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[6] Faulkes, Anthony (Trans.) (1995). Edda. Everyman. ISBN 0-460-87616-3.  Chapters 96-97." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10192" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2474" RevisionGUID="09f6ce87-8866-4108-aaa8-4fc21a358cbd" CreationDate="2017-03-17T09:33:55.087" UserId="57" Comment="added 19 characters in body" Text="The following quote is from the [Wikipedia article on the Twelve Olympians][1]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hebe, Helios, Selene, Eos, Eros and Persephone are other important gods and goddesses who are sometimes included in a group of twelve. Eros is often depicted alongside the other twelve, especially his mother Aphrodite, but not usually counted in their number.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Twelve Olympians. (2017, March 13). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 12:05, March 16, 2017, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Twelve_Olympians&amp;oldid=770150180&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately, no sources are identified for the claim (which is in fact marked with [citation-needed]). I am assuming here that &quot;group of twelve&quot; does _not_ refer to one of the multiple configurations of the Twelve Olympians. With the exception of Persephone, the other gods mentioned in the quote are minor, and not typically considered members of the *Dodekatheon*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do we know what groups of twelve the quote may be referring to?&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Olympians#Membership" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10193" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="282" RevisionGUID="dbda07d1-2ccd-4961-89bc-ffa7eebd9a5c" CreationDate="2017-03-17T14:04:14.640" UserId="967" Comment="44" />
  <row Id="10194" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2476" RevisionGUID="fdd36a6d-2be8-4f52-80d6-4f902aca99e2" CreationDate="2017-03-17T17:31:53.637" UserId="-1" Comment="Added explanation at top" Text="Ulysses, by Tennyson -- a classic poem of the aging hero. &#xD;&#xA;Here is the last part:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho' &#xD;&#xA;We are not now that strength which in old days &#xD;&#xA;Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are; &#xD;&#xA;One equal temper of heroic hearts, &#xD;&#xA;Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will &#xD;&#xA;To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It little profits that an idle king, &#xD;&#xA;By this still hearth, among these barren crags, &#xD;&#xA;Match'd with an aged wife, I mete and dole &#xD;&#xA;Unequal laws unto a savage race, &#xD;&#xA;That hoard, and sleep, and feed, and know not me. &#xD;&#xA;I cannot rest from travel: I will drink &#xD;&#xA;Life to the lees: All times I have enjoy'd &#xD;&#xA;Greatly, have suffer'd greatly, both with those &#xD;&#xA;That loved me, and alone, on shore, and when &#xD;&#xA;Thro' scudding drifts the rainy Hyades &#xD;&#xA;Vext the dim sea: I am become a name; &#xD;&#xA;For always roaming with a hungry heart &#xD;&#xA;Much have I seen and known; cities of men &#xD;&#xA;And manners, climates, councils, governments, &#xD;&#xA;Myself not least, but honour'd of them all; &#xD;&#xA;And drunk delight of battle with my peers, &#xD;&#xA;Far on the ringing plains of windy Troy. &#xD;&#xA;I am a part of all that I have met; &#xD;&#xA;Yet all experience is an arch wherethro' &#xD;&#xA;Gleams that untravell'd world whose margin fades &#xD;&#xA;For ever and forever when I move. &#xD;&#xA;How dull it is to pause, to make an end, &#xD;&#xA;To rust unburnish'd, not to shine in use! &#xD;&#xA;As tho' to breathe were life! Life piled on life &#xD;&#xA;Were all too little, and of one to me &#xD;&#xA;Little remains: but every hour is saved &#xD;&#xA;From that eternal silence, something more, &#xD;&#xA;A bringer of new things; and vile it were &#xD;&#xA;For some three suns to store and hoard myself, &#xD;&#xA;And this gray spirit yearning in desire &#xD;&#xA;To follow knowledge like a sinking star, &#xD;&#xA;Beyond the utmost bound of human thought. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;         This is my son, mine own Telemachus, &#xD;&#xA;To whom I leave the sceptre and the isle,— &#xD;&#xA;Well-loved of me, discerning to fulfil &#xD;&#xA;This labour, by slow prudence to make mild &#xD;&#xA;A rugged people, and thro' soft degrees &#xD;&#xA;Subdue them to the useful and the good. &#xD;&#xA;Most blameless is he, centred in the sphere &#xD;&#xA;Of common duties, decent not to fail &#xD;&#xA;In offices of tenderness, and pay &#xD;&#xA;Meet adoration to my household gods, &#xD;&#xA;When I am gone. He works his work, I mine. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;         There lies the port; the vessel puffs her sail: &#xD;&#xA;There gloom the dark, broad seas. My mariners, &#xD;&#xA;Souls that have toil'd, and wrought, and thought with me— &#xD;&#xA;That ever with a frolic welcome took &#xD;&#xA;The thunder and the sunshine, and opposed &#xD;&#xA;Free hearts, free foreheads—you and I are old; &#xD;&#xA;Old age hath yet his honour and his toil; &#xD;&#xA;Death closes all: but something ere the end, &#xD;&#xA;Some work of noble note, may yet be done, &#xD;&#xA;Not unbecoming men that strove with Gods. &#xD;&#xA;The lights begin to twinkle from the rocks: &#xD;&#xA;The long day wanes: the slow moon climbs: the deep &#xD;&#xA;Moans round with many voices. Come, my friends, &#xD;&#xA;'T is not too late to seek a newer world. &#xD;&#xA;Push off, and sitting well in order smite &#xD;&#xA;The sounding furrows; for my purpose holds &#xD;&#xA;To sail beyond the sunset, and the baths &#xD;&#xA;Of all the western stars, until I die. &#xD;&#xA;It may be that the gulfs will wash us down: &#xD;&#xA;It may be we shall touch the Happy Isles, &#xD;&#xA;And see the great Achilles, whom we knew. &#xD;&#xA;Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho' &#xD;&#xA;We are not now that strength which in old days &#xD;&#xA;Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are; &#xD;&#xA;One equal temper of heroic hearts, &#xD;&#xA;Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will &#xD;&#xA;To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10195" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2476" RevisionGUID="fdd36a6d-2be8-4f52-80d6-4f902aca99e2" CreationDate="2017-03-17T17:31:53.637" Comment="Proposed by anonymous approved by 967, 398 edit id of 429" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10196" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2478" RevisionGUID="d899a7ff-426a-4b33-a6b1-49b941dcb409" CreationDate="2017-03-17T23:50:37.520" UserId="967" Text="Well, I saw a youtube comment on the latest Crash Course Mythology video-&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Chronus has nothing to do with time. That's Kronos, a primordial deity separate from the titans and infinitely more important.  &#xD;&#xA;Chronus took over the position of Sky God from his father Ouranos, and was later usurped by his own son Zeus who took the same position.  &#xD;&#xA;I'm sick and tired of people misrepresenting Chronus and Kronos. This is Renaissance era confusion and it needs to stop.﻿  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I also see&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;No they didn't actually. Kronos (the titan) was spelled Κρόνος whereas Chronos was spelled like Χρόνος, which makes perfect sense since 'chrono-' is used as a root to convey time.﻿&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As used in chronological, chronicle, and chronic pain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, now I'm confused. Is Chronos Kronos or not? Preferably either using a primary source that says Chronos is the lord of time, or something." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10197" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2478" RevisionGUID="d899a7ff-426a-4b33-a6b1-49b941dcb409" CreationDate="2017-03-17T23:50:37.520" UserId="967" Text="Is Chronos Kronos?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10198" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2478" RevisionGUID="d899a7ff-426a-4b33-a6b1-49b941dcb409" CreationDate="2017-03-17T23:50:37.520" UserId="967" Text="|greek|titans|chronos|kronos|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10199" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2479" RevisionGUID="f8321f94-5774-4633-9c5c-0528e0cda350" CreationDate="2017-03-18T00:20:29.877" UserId="398" Text="First of all, never get your mythology from Youtube comments.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Second, the second comment is the accurate one. Χ in Greek is transliterated as *ch*, and that's where we get our time words from (as they mention).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I believe the first comment is just confused, where the user once read what the second person is saying, but got it exactly backwards. In both cases they're right in saying that originally *Chronus* and *Cronus* (or Khronos and Kronos, Greek Χρόνος and Κρόνος, &quot;Time&quot; and &quot;Father of Zeus&quot;) weren't the same. The first person got it backwards, and the second one got it right." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10200" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2478" RevisionGUID="dee78bd9-bfa8-44e9-ba26-4720481a8f65" CreationDate="2017-03-18T02:40:33.470" UserId="967" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body; edited tags" Text="Well, I saw a youtube comment on the latest Crash Course Mythology video-&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Chronus has nothing to do with time. That's Kronos, a primordial deity separate from the titans and infinitely more important.  &#xD;&#xA;Chronus took over the position of Sky God from his father Ouranos, and was later usurped by his own son Zeus who took the same position.  &#xD;&#xA;I'm sick and tired of people misrepresenting Chronus and Kronos. This is Renaissance era confusion and it needs to stop.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I also see&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;No they didn't actually. Kronos (the titan) was spelled Κρόνος whereas Chronos was spelled like Χρόνος, which makes perfect sense since 'chrono-' is used as a root to convey time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As used in chronological, chronicle, and chronic pain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, now I'm confused. Is Chronos Kronos or not? Preferably either using a primary source that says Chronos is the lord of time, or something." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10201" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2478" RevisionGUID="dee78bd9-bfa8-44e9-ba26-4720481a8f65" CreationDate="2017-03-18T02:40:33.470" UserId="967" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|greek|titans|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10202" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2480" RevisionGUID="439af90d-eb62-4506-ac26-99dc8c58f1d7" CreationDate="2017-03-18T12:04:56.027" UserId="3571" Text="The groups are both immortal, nobody could possibly kill or harm anybody. I always assumed that the Titans have &quot;surrendered&quot; and then therefore taken into captivity.&#xD;&#xA;But it doesn't make any sense! Imagine you are immortal and you know it, would you EVER surrender?! Of course not! If I know that nobody could possibly harm me I would never surrender to anything!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10203" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2480" RevisionGUID="439af90d-eb62-4506-ac26-99dc8c58f1d7" CreationDate="2017-03-18T12:04:56.027" UserId="3571" Text="In the battle between the Olympians and the Titans, how could any of them defeat the other one?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10204" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2480" RevisionGUID="439af90d-eb62-4506-ac26-99dc8c58f1d7" CreationDate="2017-03-18T12:04:56.027" UserId="3571" Text="|greek|immortality|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10205" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2480" RevisionGUID="b52f37f3-7d2d-4545-b135-234c13ae6e1b" CreationDate="2017-03-18T12:45:42.563" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|immortality|titanomachy|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10206" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2481" RevisionGUID="a3bdf83c-fc06-409d-b48f-65129435de62" CreationDate="2017-03-18T12:54:59.623" UserId="967" Text="[Well, they were forced into Tartarus.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;And amongst the foremost Kottos (Cottus) and Briareos (Briareus) and Gyes insatiate for war raised fierce fighting : three hundred rocks, one upon another, **they launched from their strong hands and overshadowed the Titanes with their missiles, and buried them beneath the wide-pathed earth, and bound them in bitter chains** when they had conquered them by their strength for all their great spirit, as far beneath the earth to Tartaros . . . There by the counsel of Zeus who drives the clouds the Titan gods are hidden under misty gloom, in a dank place where are the ends of the huge earth. **And they may not go out; for Poseidon fixed gates of bronze upon it**, and a wall runs all round it on every side.There [the Hekatonkheires] Gyes and Kottos and great-souled Obriareus live, trusty warders of Zeus who holds the aegis . . . But when Zeus had driven the Titanes from heaven [then Gaia bore the monstrous giant Typhoeus to oppose Zeus].&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the hundred hand people scooped up the Titans and buried them in Tartarus, and with the help of a bronze gate, guarded them &lt;s&gt;forever&lt;/s&gt; [until they were released][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[Theoi][3] says&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt;Many human generations later, Zeus released Kronos and his brothers from this prison, and made the old Titan king of the Elysian Islands, home of the blessed dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Titanes.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1258/why-did-zeus-release-cronos/1259#1259&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanKronos.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10207" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2480" RevisionGUID="a73c0465-cbc2-482f-a367-124e81751819" CreationDate="2017-03-18T15:08:55.023" UserId="967" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="The groups are both immortal, nobody could possibly kill or harm anybody. I always assumed that the Titans have &quot;surrendered&quot; and then therefore taken into captivity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But it doesn't make any sense! Imagine you are immortal and you know it, would you EVER surrender?! Of course not! If I know that nobody could possibly harm me I would never surrender to anything!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10208" PostHistoryTypeId="12" PostId="2479" RevisionGUID="00e65f35-ebe7-43e2-b57a-6356585bd338" CreationDate="2017-03-19T14:25:52.097" UserId="398" Comment="via Vote" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;C. M. Weimer&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="10209" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2468" RevisionGUID="eff93f37-abb4-46d0-b59f-61fadfbe4f16" CreationDate="2017-03-19T16:19:39.367" UserId="3530" Comment="deleted 20 characters in body" Text="Open question for thoughts, comments, explanations re Odysseus’ raid on the Cicones (also called Kikonians) while on his way home from the Trojan War, including but not limited to any of my questions below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Homer’s Odyssey Book 9, Odysseus tells his Phaeacian hosts of his adventures while returning victorious from Troy, beginning with how, leading his men home in 12 ships (I have added 3 explanatory notes I have researched):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“From Ilium [Troy] storms blew me to the Cicones*, to Ismaros. There, I sacked* the town and put the men to the sword. And we took the wives* and much loot out of the town to divide among us, and I did my best to see that every man received his proper share.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Notes:&#xD;&#xA;The “Cicones” are a people of that region listed in Homer’s Iliad Book 2 as sending warriors to reinforce the Trojans. They are not mentioned again in the Iliad so presumably their part in the War was minor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“Sacked” - Ancient Greek ‘portheo’;  to devastate, ruin; used of a conquered town in those days it would generally be taken to include plundering it, slaying many people and enslaving many more. For the losing side, it was total catastrophe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“Wives” Greek ‘alochous’, from words for lying down together; it often means ‘wives’, but can mean or include concubines &amp; mistresses.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odysseus adds that he thought it best to leave quickly but his men insisted on staying to feast on captured wine, cattle and sheep on the beach. They were still there the next day when more Cicones arrived from inland, summoned by fugitives from Odysseus’ raid who ran to them and ‘made a great cry’. These new Cicones were “better men, more numerous and more skilled in war”. They gave battle. The Greeks put up a long fight but lost over 70 men and had to flee to their ships. After commemorating their dead, they sailed away unpursued.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This raid is referred to 3 further times in the Odyssey. In Book 9, at lines 164-168 Odysseus and his men enjoy wine captured  in the raid and at 197-210 he says that in the raid out of respect for the god, he protected Maron, a priest of Apollo living near the town, and Maron’s family, from harm. In return, Maron gave Odysseus fine gifts of gold, silver and strong wine. The wine is useful in the story of the Cyclops. In Book 23 lines 310-311 when Odysseus is finally home he tells his wife Penelope of his many adventures, beginning with his overcoming the city of the Cicones, so he presumably does not expect her to disapprove of his raid.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any thoughts, comments or explanations to any of this, on any point(s) below or anything else that occurs to you? (“That’s just how it was in those days” may be a valid answer to some questions, but please don’t assume it without some evidence or reasoning!)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Why does Homer include this incident? Does it add anything to the story? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. How did Odysseus take Ismaros and eliminate its men so easily? He does not mention losing a single man doing so, but he does tell us when he loses men in the battle the next day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. Did Odysseus sack Ismaros because of the Trojan War, or was it normal and OK to do this to any foreign town, given the opportunity? The Greeks sacked other Trojan allies’ towns in the War, gaining plunder and slaves. However, there was then a military need to eliminate enemy allies and capture supplies. There seems no need to attack Ismaros. The Trojan War is already won, Troy destroyed and Odysseus and his men already have plunder from Troy and are supposedly tired of war and eager for home.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. a) The one reference to the women of Ismaros in the passage above: “We took the wives and much loot out of the town to divide among us” is their only mention in the Odyssey.  Do we assume hundreds (?) of these unfortunate Ciconian “wives” (actually now widows) are present as slaves, presumably servants and concubines, on Odysseus’ ships in the later adventures until the ships are lost but are not considered worth mentioning?  If not, what happened to them?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;b) Does the same explanation apply to the fact that in the Sack of Troy, the Greeks/ Achaeans are supposed to have enslaved Trojan women in large numbers as booty of war, yet there is no mention anywhere in the Odyssey of such women being on Odysseus’ ships?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;c) If captured Trojan or Ciconian slaves and women are on board, presumably they die along with the crews when the ships are lost, but again their fate is not important enough to mention?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;5. Thoughts about the position of Maron and his wife, giving gifts to Odysseus even as he and his warriors kill or carry off into slavery all their neighbours?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10215" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2474" RevisionGUID="0e3dc181-7d4c-4918-ac10-f1039ff639b3" CreationDate="2017-03-20T08:01:07.677" UserId="57" Comment="added 5 characters in body" Text="The following quote is from the [Wikipedia article on the Twelve Olympians][1]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hebe, Helios, Selene, Eos, Eros and Persephone are other important gods and goddesses who are sometimes included in a group of twelve. Eros is often depicted alongside the other twelve, especially his mother Aphrodite, but not usually counted in their number.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Twelve Olympians. (2017, March 13). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 12:05, March 16, 2017, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Twelve_Olympians&amp;oldid=770150180&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately, no sources are identified for the claim (which is in fact marked with [citation-needed]). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am guessing that &quot;group of twelve&quot; does not refer to one of the multiple configurations of the Twelve Olympians. With the exception of Persephone, the other gods mentioned in the quote are minor, and wouldn't typically be considered members of the *Dodekatheon*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do we know what groups of twelve the quote may be referring to?&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Olympians#Membership" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10216" PostHistoryTypeId="12" PostId="2463" RevisionGUID="fcd7eed9-c9a9-4030-890c-af46deea96a4" CreationDate="2017-03-20T12:08:53.043" UserId="398" Comment="via Vote" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;C. M. Weimer&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="10217" PostHistoryTypeId="12" PostId="2417" RevisionGUID="8b59bec3-be1c-43fc-b63a-d4c8a231992e" CreationDate="2017-03-20T12:09:53.720" UserId="398" Comment="via Vote" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;C. M. Weimer&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="10218" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2482" RevisionGUID="753f88d4-b5c7-4de3-ab5c-1cb7ae8e65e9" CreationDate="2017-03-20T17:00:21.567" UserId="3585" Text="I only know o bit of both legends so i may be a little off in saying this  but from what i know Excalibur is English mithos and is depicted and a large broadsword and is called the sword of the king. on the other hand caliburn is a normal sword and is called the sword of victory if im right i think it is either nors or Irish mithos. however in both mithos they both are refereed to as a sword that can cut through anything so they both have slightly different wording but the same root." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10219" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2482" RevisionGUID="649c98d6-10fd-4ffd-bb67-7d5d534f3c9e" CreationDate="2017-03-20T21:00:33.443" UserId="967" Comment="deleted 11 characters in body" Text="I only know a bit of both legends so I may be a little off in saying this, but from what I know, Excalibur is English mythos and is depicted as a large broadsword and is called the sword of the king. On the other hand caliburn is a normal sword and is called the sword of victory. I think it is either norse or Irish mythos. However in both mythos they both are refered to as a sword that can cut through anything so they both have slightly different wording but the same root." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10221" PostHistoryTypeId="13" PostId="2479" RevisionGUID="d0114078-c084-4e18-af20-9649e57fa856" CreationDate="2017-03-20T23:41:14.307" UserId="398" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;C. M. Weimer&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="10222" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2483" RevisionGUID="cdaf81ee-d133-403b-bca6-38085d232065" CreationDate="2017-03-21T18:20:18.690" UserId="197" Text="In ancient greek mythology, Heracles is the hero with the most adventures ever.  There is, however, a temporal paradox between the different myths about him that bothers me a bit. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Heracles was born as a mortal son of Zeus.  He has done a lot of heroic deeds while traveling around Earth, as well as a few shameful crimes like killing his own children, Kheiron the centaur, and Iphitos. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Heracles got poisoned by the blood of Nessos, in his unbearable pain, he [chose to commit suicide by getting burned alive on a funeral pyre][f].  But before he could die, Zeus has rescued him by raising his spirit to Olympos, making him an immortal god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus has insisted that Heracles shall become one of the gods who participate in the regular dinner feasts of the gods on Olympos with Zeus himself.  As, however, there were previously twelve guests to those feasts, and thirteen was an unlucky number, Zeus has forced one of the other gods to give up their place in favor of Heracles. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But drinking ambrosia in the company of Zeus couldn't entirely satisfy Heracles, so he continued his heroic deeds as an immortal god.  Already having some experience in defeating immortal beasts, he has helped the Olympian gods by fighting against the monstrous children the primordial gods have spawned.  As a physically strong god, he was a decisive factor in ending the rule of the Titans and ensuring that the Olympian gods would rule the world. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These stories seem to contradict though.  If Zeus could raise his son to an immortal god, and then even had time for dinner table arrangements, then surely he was already the king of Gods, comfortably ruling Earth together with the other Olympians.  The fight against the old gods must have happened before that.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the correct timeline here?  Did Heracles travel back in time after he became immortal?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[f]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/2478/197" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10223" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2483" RevisionGUID="cdaf81ee-d133-403b-bca6-38085d232065" CreationDate="2017-03-21T18:20:18.690" UserId="197" Text="How could Heracles ensure the victory of the Olympians against the Titans if he was born mortal?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10224" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2483" RevisionGUID="cdaf81ee-d133-403b-bca6-38085d232065" CreationDate="2017-03-21T18:20:18.690" UserId="197" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10225" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2468" RevisionGUID="c58c4e07-9329-4216-853e-a39ce1a13836" CreationDate="2017-03-21T18:31:36.097" UserId="3530" Comment="deleted 45 characters in body" Text="Open question for thoughts, comments, explanations re Odysseus’ raid on the Cicones (also called Kikonians) while on his way home from the Trojan War, including but not limited to any of my questions below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Homer’s Odyssey Book 9, Odysseus tells his Phaeacian hosts of his adventures while returning victorious from Troy, beginning with how, leading his men home in 12 ships (I have added 3 explanatory notes I have researched):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“From Ilium [Troy] storms blew me to the Cicones*, to Ismaros. There, I sacked* the town and put the men to the sword. And we took the wives* and much loot out of the town to divide among us, and I did my best to see that every man received his proper share.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Notes:&#xD;&#xA;The “Cicones” are a people of that region listed in Homer’s Iliad Book 2 as sending warriors to reinforce the Trojans. They are not mentioned again in the Iliad so presumably their part in the War was minor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“Sacked” - Ancient Greek ‘portheo’;  to devastate, ruin; used of a conquered town in those days it would generally be taken to include plundering it, slaying many people and enslaving many more. For the losing side, it was total catastrophe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“Wives” Greek ‘alochous’, from words for lying down together; it often means ‘wives’, but can mean or include concubines &amp; mistresses.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odysseus adds that he thought it best to leave quickly but his men insisted on staying to feast on captured wine, cattle and sheep on the beach. They were still there the next day when more Cicones arrived from inland, summoned by fugitives from Odysseus’ raid who ran to them and ‘made a great cry’. These new Cicones were “better men, more numerous and more skilled in war”. They gave battle. The Greeks put up a long fight but lost over 70 men and had to flee to their ships. After commemorating their dead, they sailed away unpursued.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This raid is referred to 3 further times in the Odyssey. In Book 9, at lines 164-168 Odysseus and his men enjoy wine captured  in the raid and at 197-210 he says that in the raid out of respect for the god, he protected Maron, a priest of Apollo living near the town, and Maron’s family, from harm. In return, Maron gave Odysseus fine gifts of gold, silver and strong wine. The wine is useful in the story of the Cyclops. In Book 23 lines 310-311 when Odysseus is finally home he tells his wife Penelope of his many adventures, beginning with his overcoming the city of the Cicones, so he presumably does not expect her to disapprove of his raid.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any thoughts, comments or explanations to any of this, on any point(s) below or anything else that occurs to you? (“That’s just how it was in those days” may be a valid answer to some questions, but please don’t assume it without some evidence or reasoning!)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Why does Homer include this incident? Does it add anything to the story? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. How did Odysseus conquer Ismaros and its men so easily? He does not mention losing a single man doing so, but he does tell us when he loses men in the battle the next day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. Did Odysseus sack Ismaros because of the Trojan War, or was it normal and OK to do this to any foreign town, given the opportunity? The Greeks sacked other Trojan allies’ towns in the War, gaining plunder and slaves. However, there was then a military need to eliminate enemy allies and capture supplies. There seems no need to attack Ismaros. The Trojan War is already won, Troy destroyed and Odysseus and his men already have plunder from Troy and are supposedly tired of war and eager for home.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. a) The one reference to the women of Ismaros in the passage above: “We took the wives and much loot out of the town to divide among us” is their only mention in the Odyssey.  Do we assume hundreds (?) of these unfortunate Ciconian “wives” (actually now widows) are present as slaves, presumably servants and concubines, on Odysseus’ ships in the later adventures until the ships are lost but are not considered worth mentioning?  If not, what happened to them?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;b) Ditto that in the Sack of Troy, the Greeks/ Achaeans are supposed to have enslaved Trojan women in large numbers as booty of war, yet there is no mention anywhere in the Odyssey of such women being on Odysseus’ ships?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;c) If captured Trojan or Ciconian slaves and women are on board, presumably they die along with the crews when the ships are lost, but again their fate is not important enough to mention?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;5. Thoughts about the position of Maron and his wife, giving gifts to Odysseus even as he and his warriors kill or carry off into slavery all their neighbours?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10226" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2483" RevisionGUID="e961e1b5-0ef4-4042-b11d-6c279e7efc85" CreationDate="2017-03-21T18:39:40.607" UserId="197" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|titanomachy|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10227" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2483" RevisionGUID="f168be85-3b28-46f2-b880-47b69e89d380" CreationDate="2017-03-21T19:48:02.340" UserId="197" Comment="edited body" Text="In ancient greek mythology, Heracles is the hero with the most adventures ever.  There is, however, a temporal paradox between the different myths about him that bothers me a bit. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Heracles was born as a mortal son of Zeus.  He has done a lot of heroic deeds while traveling around Earth, as well as a few shameful crimes like killing his own children, Kheiron the centaur, and Iphitos. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Heracles got poisoned by the blood of Nessos, in his unbearable pain, he [chose to commit suicide by getting burned alive on a funeral pyre][f].  But before he could die, Zeus has rescued him by raising his spirit to Olympos, making him an immortal god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus has insisted that Heracles shall become one of the gods who participate in the regular dinner feasts of the gods on Olympos with Zeus himself.  As, however, there were previously twelve guests to those feasts, and thirteen was an unlucky number, Zeus has forced one of the other gods to give up their place in favor of Heracles. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But drinking ambrosia in the company of Zeus couldn't entirely satisfy Heracles, so he continued his heroic deeds as an immortal god.  Already having some experience in defeating immortal beasts, he has helped the Olympian gods by fighting against the monstrous children the primordial gods have spawned.  As a physically strong god, he was a decisive factor in ending the rule of the Titans and ensuring that the Olympian gods would rule the world. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These stories seem to contradict though.  If Zeus could raise his son to an immortal god, and then even had time for dinner table arrangements, then surely he was already the king of Gods, comfortably ruling Earth together with the other Olympians.  The fight against the old gods must have happened before that.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the correct timeline here?  Did Heracles travel back in time after he became immortal?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[f]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/2416/197" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10228" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2484" RevisionGUID="7f16b0c1-360b-4098-8d96-e6ecda04e8cf" CreationDate="2017-03-22T02:19:11.467" UserId="3590" Text="When I compare the two Egyptian goddesses [Nephthys](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephthys) and [Taweret](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taweret), I see a number of parallels, but I also see distinct differences.  Consider:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Both are associated with childbirth, but whereas Nephthys is called upon for protection in the afterlife, Taweret is called upon for protection in this life.&#xD;&#xA;- Both appear in the myth of Isis and Osiris, but while Nephthys appears in the resurrection of Osiris, Taweret appears in the battle against Set.&#xD;&#xA;- Nephthys is typically represented as a young woman, but Taweret appears as a hippopotamus.  At the same time, other goddesses, including Isis, were portrayed in hippo form when their myth related to protecting others.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This makes me wonder if we are talking about two distinct goddesses in the Egyptian mythos, or if they are two aspects of the same goddess, with those differences perhaps representing changes in belief systems over time.  Is there any evidence of the two interacting with each other, or other indication that they were perceived as distinct by the ancient Egyptians?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10229" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2484" RevisionGUID="7f16b0c1-360b-4098-8d96-e6ecda04e8cf" CreationDate="2017-03-22T02:19:11.467" UserId="3590" Text="How are Taweret and Nephthys related?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10230" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2484" RevisionGUID="7f16b0c1-360b-4098-8d96-e6ecda04e8cf" CreationDate="2017-03-22T02:19:11.467" UserId="3590" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10232" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2485" RevisionGUID="c2dbc811-55a4-4c61-b13c-7db109f67801" CreationDate="2017-03-22T15:08:23.593" UserId="2892" Text="I ask because I only know her from folktales, children's plays, etc., but the general impression I formed was of Baba Yaga as protagonist.  Is this incorrect or is she sometimes the hero of stories?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10233" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2485" RevisionGUID="c2dbc811-55a4-4c61-b13c-7db109f67801" CreationDate="2017-03-22T15:08:23.593" UserId="2892" Text="Is Baba Yaga always the antagonist, or sometimes the protagonist?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10234" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2485" RevisionGUID="c2dbc811-55a4-4c61-b13c-7db109f67801" CreationDate="2017-03-22T15:08:23.593" UserId="2892" Text="|folklore|baba-yaga|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10235" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2483" RevisionGUID="19f81357-28be-4d63-86c2-9bba5eac4453" CreationDate="2017-03-22T15:12:31.847" UserId="2892" Comment="Slight edits" Text="In ancient greek mythology, Heracles is the hero with the most adventures ever.  There is, however, a temporal paradox between the different myths about him that bothers me a bit. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Heracles was born as a mortal son of Zeus.  He has done a lot of heroic deeds while traveling around Earth, as well as a few shameful crimes like killing his own wife and children, Kheiron the centaur, and Iphitos. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Heracles was poisoned by the blood of Nessos, in his unbearable pain, he [chose to commit suicide by getting burned alive on a funeral pyre][f].  But before he could die, Zeus has rescued him by raising his spirit to Olympos, making him an immortal god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus has insisted that Heracles shall become one of the gods who participate in the regular dinner feasts of the gods on Olympos with Zeus himself.  As, however, there were previously twelve guests to those feasts, and thirteen was an unlucky number, Zeus has forced one of the other gods to give up their place in favor of Heracles. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Drinking ambrosia in the company of Zeus couldn't entirely satisfy Heracles, so he continued his heroic deeds as an immortal god.  Already experienced in defeating immortal beasts, he again helps the Olympians by fighting against the monstrous children the primordial gods have spawned.  As a physically strong god, he was a decisive factor in ending the rule of the Titans and ensuring that the Olympian gods would rule the world. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These stories seem contradictory.  If Zeus could raise his son to immortal status, and even re-arrange the the seating at the high table or Olympus, then surely he was already the king of Gods, comfortably ruling Earth together with the other Olympians.  The fight against the old gods must have happened before that.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the correct timeline here?  Did Heracles travel back in time after he became immortal?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[f]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/2416/197" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10236" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2486" RevisionGUID="154a80fa-d95f-43b3-8890-05658a7d623c" CreationDate="2017-03-22T19:57:51.380" UserId="2892" Text="I apologize for the length of this answer, per the background--the two wars are indeed distinct, as Yannis points out. Your point about temporal contradiction is valid, (and in my experience, time can be non-linear in the Greek Myths,) but there is no easy explanation.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Titanomachy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanomachy) (literally &quot;battle with the titans&quot; from the Greek &quot;[mach-ey](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ma%2Fxh&amp;la=greek&amp;can=ma%2Fxh0#lexicon)&quot;) was the original war of the Olympians, recounted vividly in [Hesiod's Theogony](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D687):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Then Zeus no longer held back his might; but straight his heart was filled with fury and he showed forth all his strength. From Heaven and from Olympus he came immediately, hurling his lightning: the bolts flew thick and fast from his strong hand together with thunder and lightning, whirling an awesome flame. The life-giving earth crashed around in burning, and the vast wood crackled loud with fire all about. All the land seethed, and Ocean's streams and the unfruitful sea. The hot vapor lapped round the earthborn Titans: flame unspeakable rose to the bright upper air&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Gigantomachy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giants_(Greek_mythology)#The_Gigantomachy) is a subsequent war, by some accounts incited by the casting down of the Titans and Gaia's dissatisfaction with that outcome: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Earth, vexed on account of the Titans, brought forth the giants&quot;.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt; Source: [Apollodorus, Library 1.6.1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D6%3Asection%3D1)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first account of Heracles aiding the gods in this battle against the giants seems to be [Pindar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pindar), a few centuries after Hesiod:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;[Zeus] stood, possessed by overwhelming astonishment and delight. For he saw the supernatural courage and power of his son&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Pindar, Nemean Odes, 1, line 55](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0162%3Abook%3DN.%3Apoem%3D1)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus consults the seer, Teiresias, who prophesies:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...that when the gods meet the giants in battle on the plain of Phlegra, the shining hair of the giants will be stained with dirt beneath the rushing arrows of [Heracles].&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: ibid. line 67-68&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This has been interpreted to mean that the gods would need the aid of a &quot;mortal&quot; to overthrow the giants (similar, perhaps, to how the Witch King in Tolkien can be killed by &quot;no man&quot;;)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Apollodorus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollodorus_of_Athens) very specifically comments on this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Now the gods had an oracle that none of the giants could perish at the hand of gods, but that with the help of a mortal they would be made an end of.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Apollodorus, Library 1.6.1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D6%3Asection%3D1)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus provides an example in the death of the giant Alcyoneus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Hercules first shot Alcyoneus with an arrow, but when the giant fell on the ground he somewhat revived. However, at Athena's advice Hercules dragged him outside Pallene, and so the giant died.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;ibid.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Note that the term &quot;simple&quot; is used in this old-fashioned translation for the actual Greek word &quot;[pharmakon](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=fa%2Frmakon&amp;la=greek&amp;can=fa%2Frmakon1&amp;prior=me\n&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0021:text=Library:book=1:chapter=6:section=1&amp;i=2)&quot;, here simply referring to a magic plant.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is possible that Heracles' legendary strength may exceed that of any god, in that he is the one who has to drag the giant.  The precedent for such brute force may be said to derive from Hesiod's account of the Titanomachy:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;But until then, they kept at one another and fought continually in cruel war. And amongst the foremost Cottus and Briareos and Gyes insatiate for war raised fierce fighting: three hundred rocks, one upon another, they launched from their strong hands and overshadowed the Titans with their missiles, and hurled them beneath the wide-pathed earth, and bound them in bitter chains when they had conquered them by their strength for all their great spirit.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Theogony, 711-719](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D687)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And thus Heracles involvement is a reflection of the involvement of the [Hecatoncheires](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecatoncheires) in the previous war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Regarding the temporal anomaly:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus doesn't get to the creation of man until [Book 1, Chapter 7](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D7%3Asection%3D1), and the divine conception of Heracles is not recounted until [Book 2](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D7%3Asection%3D1).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we accept that the time period figures such as [Alcmene](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcmene) and [Amphitryon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphitryon) came after the Gigantomancy, then Heracles aided the gods before he was born.  Dionysus [was also said to be involved in the battle](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Eur.+Ion+206&amp;fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0110) per Euripides, and like Heracles, would seem to have been conceived in a later, more settled age. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But Apollodorus doesn't explicitly state when the Gigantomachy occurred, and as the battle is absent in Hesiod, who is more linear, it's difficult to nail down chronologically. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems sensible that the Gigantomachy occurred before the ages of man in that there don't seem to be stories of humans being affected by the battle. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I hope this attempt to answer your very salient question is not too unsatisfactory.  My personal take, based on years of study, is that time in Greek Mythology is not strictly linear, but occurs in a sort of &quot;eternal past&quot; that is &quot;eternally present&quot;.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10237" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2487" RevisionGUID="267666e3-3b30-4aaa-9869-71766460ead8" CreationDate="2017-03-23T00:35:08.093" UserId="3591" Text="It sounds like they *are* referring to the Twelve Olympians. I can't think of any other groups of twelve in Greek mythology at all, except for the twelve labors of Heracles, but that's not a group of people. Hebe and Eros, like Persephone, are rarely included here, but Helios, Selene, and Eos have never been included in the *Dodekatheon*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Twelve Olympians as a concept is a rather shaky one in terms of assistance, with the line-up varying often, but most configurations of it don't mention any of those names. There are plenty of gods and titans who *reside* on Mount Olympus, but they aren't considered part of the Twelve.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This might be assuming, but it would appear that the person who contributed that sentence to this Wikipedia article didn't include a citation because there is nothing to cite but their personal conjecture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10238" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2488" RevisionGUID="51ad2340-5028-4f93-93aa-c1522263c0c8" CreationDate="2017-03-23T03:36:36.280" UserId="3592" Text="I'm working on an undergraduate term paper about the impact of the Achaemenid empire (so literature would have to be pretty old) on the development of Judeo-Christian demonology. I've found some lists of the major arch-demons in Zoroastrianism and their basic functions, but I would really like to know about some of their symbols and associations. Like for example, if any of them are associated with serpents or literally anything, such as a type of weapon it carries, etc. Any pointers to relevant texts would be great. Thank you!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10239" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2488" RevisionGUID="51ad2340-5028-4f93-93aa-c1522263c0c8" CreationDate="2017-03-23T03:36:36.280" UserId="3592" Text="Characteristics, associations, or icons pertaining to Zoroastrian demons?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10240" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2488" RevisionGUID="51ad2340-5028-4f93-93aa-c1522263c0c8" CreationDate="2017-03-23T03:36:36.280" UserId="3592" Text="|abrahamic-religions|persian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10241" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2485" RevisionGUID="0aab525a-5472-4750-b167-1b68fe9883aa" CreationDate="2017-03-23T10:43:29.637" UserId="201" Comment="fixed wee typo" Text="I ask because I only know her from folktales, children's plays, etc., but the general impression I formed was of Baba Yaga as the antagonist. Is this incorrect or is she sometimes the hero of stories?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10242" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2485" RevisionGUID="0aab525a-5472-4750-b167-1b68fe9883aa" CreationDate="2017-03-23T10:43:29.637" Comment="Proposed by 201 approved by 2774, 57 edit id of 430" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10243" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2489" RevisionGUID="00e8c740-dcb8-4044-b990-ecd1c98a111b" CreationDate="2017-03-23T11:23:18.073" UserId="2807" Text="I remember reading a long time ago about a knight and his wife. It was implied that this was the continuation of many adventures:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After marrying, and with the intention of keeping their love alive like the first day, they both decide to start a journey by land, with a peculiarity: the woman travelled X amount of days ahead of the knight, so she would put herself willingly in a [damsel-in-distress](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damsel_in_distress) situation for the knight to arrive and rescue her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've tried to identify this story for so many years with no success, I even searched TV tropes (which I'm not gonna link to not ruin your productivity).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At that time I was reading about Arthurian and Germanic medieval legends, so I tend to associate this story with that context, but my memory could be wrong and this could be a false hint. I'm quite sure that this was not a novel or a movie though.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can you help me identify this myth/legend/tale?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10244" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2489" RevisionGUID="00e8c740-dcb8-4044-b990-ecd1c98a111b" CreationDate="2017-03-23T11:23:18.073" UserId="2807" Text="Help me identify this damsel-in-distress tale" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10245" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2489" RevisionGUID="00e8c740-dcb8-4044-b990-ecd1c98a111b" CreationDate="2017-03-23T11:23:18.073" UserId="2807" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10246" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2485" RevisionGUID="bb8756c3-97d8-4e8d-a998-c60a44aada9e" CreationDate="2017-03-23T13:48:13.143" UserId="2892" Comment="I actually did mean protagonist, because my impression of Baba Yaga is that she is usually victorious" Text="I ask because I only know her from folktales, children's plays, and secondary sources, but the general impression I formed was of Baba Yaga as the protagonist. Is this incorrect or is she sometimes the hero of stories?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10249" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2491" RevisionGUID="a4c5145f-a780-4dd1-a4fd-80f57cf4d172" CreationDate="2017-03-23T16:52:00.357" UserId="2892" Text="In Ovid's Metamorphosis, Zeus, thoroughly freaked out* by his encounter with Lycaon, [returns to Olympus, determined to rid the world of the evil race of men.](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D163) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A few lines later, Ovid relates that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;And now his thunder bolts&#xD;&#xA;would Jove wide scatter, but he feared the flames,&#xD;&#xA;unnumbered, (the) sacred ether might ignite&#xD;&#xA;and burn the axle of the universe:&#xD;&#xA;and he remembered in the scroll of fate,&#xD;&#xA;there is a time appointed when the sea&#xD;&#xA;and earth and Heavens shall melt, and fire destroy&#xD;&#xA;the universe...&quot; &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Perseus](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D253)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I can't recall a Greek source for this, aside from Plato:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;...a destruction of the things on the earth by fierce fire, which recurs at long intervals.&quot; &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Timeaus, 22d](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0180%3Atext%3DTim.%3Asection%3D22d)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But this very specifically references the destruction of earth ([γῆς](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=gh%3D&amp;la=greek&amp;can=gh%3D0)), and does not include heaven, per the oracle Zeus refers to in Ovid (&quot;[ignibus][1] [aether][2]&quot; and so forth).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I find it interesting that such a prophecy appears only in the Latin canon, in Ovid, who was born a year after Julius Caesar was assassinated, by which I mean to say, during a period when there had been [documented contact with the Germanic tribes for well over a century.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_Wars)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Q: Are there any Greek sources for the destruction of the Universe by fire?  Is it possible this prophecy derives from Germanic sources?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------&#xD;&#xA;   *I say freaked out because Zeus is &quot;[anxious](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=anxius&amp;la=la&amp;can=anxius0&amp;prior=magis&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.02.0029:book=1:card=163&amp;i=1#lexicon)&quot; about his future sovereignty over the world, and goes on to suggest that nothing is safe if he himself can be &quot;[ensnared][3]&quot; by a psychopath such as Lycaon.*   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ignibus&amp;la=la&amp;can=ignibus0&amp;prior=ab&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.02.0029:book=1:card=253&amp;i=1&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=aether&amp;la=la&amp;can=aether0&amp;prior=ignibus&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.02.0029:book=1:card=253&amp;i=1&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=insidias&amp;la=la&amp;can=insidias0&amp;prior=struxerit&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.02.0029:book=1:card=163&amp;i=1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10250" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2491" RevisionGUID="a4c5145f-a780-4dd1-a4fd-80f57cf4d172" CreationDate="2017-03-23T16:52:00.357" UserId="2892" Text="Destruction of the universe by fire in the Ancient Greek cannon?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10251" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2491" RevisionGUID="a4c5145f-a780-4dd1-a4fd-80f57cf4d172" CreationDate="2017-03-23T16:52:00.357" UserId="2892" Text="|norse|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10252" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2468" RevisionGUID="f0836d26-14b3-4704-a565-590ab6abaec8" CreationDate="2017-03-23T17:50:47.217" UserId="2892" Comment="Added links to the passages referenced and the Greek terms, and corrected &quot;portheo&quot; to the related term actually used: &quot;pertho&quot;" Text="Open question for thoughts, comments, explanations re Odysseus’ raid on the Cicones (also called Kikonians) while on his way home from the Trojan War, including but not limited to any of my questions below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Homer’s [Odyssey Book 9][1], Odysseus tells his Phaeacian hosts of his adventures while returning victorious from Troy, beginning with how, leading his men home in 12 ships (I have added 3 explanatory notes I have researched):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “From Ilium [Troy] storms blew me to the Cicones*, to Ismaros. There, I sacked* the town and put the men to the sword. And we took the wives* and much loot out of the town to divide among us, and I did my best to see that every man received his proper share.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Notes:&#xD;&#xA;The “Cicones” are a people of that region listed in Homer’s [Iliad Book 2][2] as sending warriors to reinforce the Trojans. They are not mentioned again in the Iliad so presumably their part in the War was minor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“Sacked” - Ancient Greek ‘[pertho][3]’;  to devastate, ruin, sack; used in relation to a conquered town in those days it would generally be taken to include plundering, slaughtering inhabitants, and enslaving many survivors. For the losing side, it could be total catastrophe.  [Note: Odysseus also uses &quot;[olesa][4]&quot;, which means to destroy.]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“Wives” Greek ‘[alochous][5]’, from words for lying down together; it often means ‘wives’, but can mean or include concubines &amp; mistresses. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odysseus adds that he thought it best to leave quickly but his men insisted on staying to feast on captured wine, cattle and sheep on the beach. They were still there the next day when more Cicones arrived from inland, summoned by fugitives from Odysseus’ raid who ran to them and ‘made a great cry’. These new Cicones were “better men, more numerous and more skilled in war”. They gave battle. The Greeks put up a long fight but lost over 70 men and had to flee to their ships. After commemorating their dead, they sailed away unpursued.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This raid is referred to 3 further times in the Odyssey. In Book 9, at lines [164-168][6] Odysseus and his men enjoy wine captured  in the raid and at [197-210][7] he says that in the raid out of respect for the god, he protected Maron, a priest of Apollo living near the town, and Maron’s family, from harm. In return, Maron gave Odysseus fine gifts of gold, silver and strong wine. The wine is useful in the story of the Cyclops. In [Book 23 lines 310-311][8] when Odysseus is finally home he tells his wife Penelope of his many adventures, beginning with his overcoming the city of the Cicones, so he presumably does not expect her to disapprove of his raid.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any thoughts, comments or explanations to any of this, on any point(s) below or anything else that occurs to you? (“That’s just how it was in those days” may be a valid answer to some questions, but please don’t assume it without some evidence or reasoning!)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Why does Homer include this incident? Does it add anything to the story? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. How did Odysseus conquer Ismaros and its men so easily? He does not mention losing a single man doing so, but he does tell us when he loses men in the battle the next day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. Did Odysseus sack Ismaros because of the Trojan War, or was it normal and OK to do this to any foreign town, given the opportunity? The Greeks sacked other Trojan allies’ towns in the War, gaining plunder and slaves. However, there was then a military need to eliminate enemy allies and capture supplies. There seems no need to attack Ismaros. The Trojan War is already won, Troy destroyed and Odysseus and his men already have plunder from Troy and are supposedly tired of war and eager for home.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. a) The one reference to the women of Ismaros in the passage above: “We took the wives and much loot out of the town to divide among us” is their only mention in the Odyssey.  Do we assume hundreds (?) of these unfortunate Ciconian “wives” (actually now widows) are present as slaves, presumably servants and concubines, on Odysseus’ ships in the later adventures until the ships are lost but are not considered worth mentioning?  If not, what happened to them?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;b) Ditto that in the Sack of Troy, the Greeks/ Achaeans are supposed to have enslaved Trojan women in large numbers as booty of war, yet there is no mention anywhere in the Odyssey of such women being on Odysseus’ ships?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;c) If captured Trojan or Ciconian slaves and women are on board, presumably they die along with the crews when the ships are lost, but again their fate is not important enough to mention?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;5. Thoughts about the position of Maron and his wife, giving gifts to Odysseus even as he and his warriors kill or carry off into slavery all their neighbours?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D1&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D2%3Acard%3D819&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29%2Fpraqon&amp;la=greek&amp;can=e%29%2Fpraqon0&amp;prior=po/lin&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0135:book=9:card=1&amp;i=1&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=w%29%2Flesa&amp;la=greek&amp;can=w%29%2Flesa0&amp;prior=e)/praqon&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0135:book=9:card=1&amp;i=1&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29lo%2Fxous&amp;la=greek&amp;can=a%29lo%2Fxous0&amp;prior=d%27&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0135:book=9:card=1&amp;i=1&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D161&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D193&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D23%3Acard%3D310" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10253" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2492" RevisionGUID="7b96d4be-d727-45b8-8640-ee788c536472" CreationDate="2017-03-23T18:19:32.057" UserId="2892" Text="1. It was quite common to sack towns on the trip to, from, and even during the war.  (Compare to the medieval Crusaders.) I don't have time to run down specific examples, but there is a discussion here: http://history.stackexchange.com/questions/32312/why-did-homer-s-greeks-sack-so-many-cities-in-the-trojan-war-does-it-make-them&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. Ostensibly the gentrified townsfolk were not fierce as their country neighbors: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Meanwhile the Cicones went and called to other Cicones who were their neighbors, at once more numerous and braver than they—men that dwelt inland and were skilled at fighting with their foes from chariots, and, if need were, on foot.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Odyssey 9, 47-50][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. Totally normal.  Completely acceptable.  Generally perceived as admirable, thus gladly recounted by Odysseus.  (See 1.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. Women were generally regarded as chattel.  The term &quot;booty&quot; is most apropos.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4(b) Only significant prizes would be worth mentioning, such as Andromache.  notable that [Hecuba][2] was awarded to Odysseus as a slave, but she raged so intensely, she was transformed into a literal &quot;bitch&quot; in the form of a mythical dog, or &quot;maera&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4(c) Yup.  They are chattel, not worth mentioning unless they previously had high status.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;5. He was probably just relieved Odysseus spared him, even though Odysseus' actions were based on fear of Apollo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*[Sorry for the brief answers, but I thought you'd appreciate some response.  I'll likely come back and amend when I have some more time.]*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D47&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecuba#Hecuba_in_other_classical_works" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10254" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2486" RevisionGUID="beb47c58-71eb-48bb-b376-eff9894406fe" CreationDate="2017-03-23T18:42:16.730" UserId="2892" Comment="Added a few scholarly links to support my conclusion and give some context to the issue." Text="I apologize for the length of this answer, per the background--the two wars are indeed distinct, as Yannis points out. Your point about temporal contradiction is valid, (and in my experience, time can be non-linear in the Greek Myths,) but there is no easy explanation.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Titanomachy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanomachy) (literally &quot;battle with the titans&quot; from the Greek &quot;[mach-ey](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ma%2Fxh&amp;la=greek&amp;can=ma%2Fxh0#lexicon)&quot;) was the original war of the Olympians, recounted vividly in [Hesiod's Theogony](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D687):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Then Zeus no longer held back his might; but straight his heart was filled with fury and he showed forth all his strength. From Heaven and from Olympus he came immediately, hurling his lightning: the bolts flew thick and fast from his strong hand together with thunder and lightning, whirling an awesome flame. The life-giving earth crashed around in burning, and the vast wood crackled loud with fire all about. All the land seethed, and Ocean's streams and the unfruitful sea. The hot vapor lapped round the earthborn Titans: flame unspeakable rose to the bright upper air&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Gigantomachy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giants_(Greek_mythology)#The_Gigantomachy) is a subsequent war, by some accounts incited by the casting down of the Titans and Gaia's dissatisfaction with that outcome: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Earth, vexed on account of the Titans, brought forth the giants&quot;.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt; Source: [Apollodorus, Library 1.6.1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D6%3Asection%3D1)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first account of Heracles aiding the gods in this battle against the giants seems to be [Pindar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pindar), a few centuries after Hesiod:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;[Zeus] stood, possessed by overwhelming astonishment and delight. For he saw the supernatural courage and power of his son&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Pindar, Nemean Odes, 1, line 55](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0162%3Abook%3DN.%3Apoem%3D1)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus consults the seer, Teiresias, who prophesies:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...that when the gods meet the giants in battle on the plain of Phlegra, the shining hair of the giants will be stained with dirt beneath the rushing arrows of [Heracles].&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: ibid. line 67-68&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This has been interpreted to mean that the gods would need the aid of a &quot;mortal&quot; to overthrow the giants (similar, perhaps, to how the Witch King in Tolkien can be killed by &quot;no man&quot;;)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Apollodorus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollodorus_of_Athens) very specifically comments on this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Now the gods had an oracle that none of the giants could perish at the hand of gods, but that with the help of a mortal they would be made an end of.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Apollodorus, Library 1.6.1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D6%3Asection%3D1)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus provides an example in the death of the giant Alcyoneus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Hercules first shot Alcyoneus with an arrow, but when the giant fell on the ground he somewhat revived. However, at Athena's advice Hercules dragged him outside Pallene, and so the giant died.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;ibid.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Note that the term &quot;simple&quot; is used in this old-fashioned translation for the actual Greek word &quot;[pharmakon](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=fa%2Frmakon&amp;la=greek&amp;can=fa%2Frmakon1&amp;prior=me\n&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0021:text=Library:book=1:chapter=6:section=1&amp;i=2)&quot;, here simply referring to a magic plant.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is possible that Heracles' legendary strength may exceed that of any god, in that he is the one who has to drag the giant.  The precedent for such brute force may be said to derive from Hesiod's account of the Titanomachy:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;But until then, they kept at one another and fought continually in cruel war. And amongst the foremost Cottus and Briareos and Gyes insatiate for war raised fierce fighting: three hundred rocks, one upon another, they launched from their strong hands and overshadowed the Titans with their missiles, and hurled them beneath the wide-pathed earth, and bound them in bitter chains when they had conquered them by their strength for all their great spirit.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Theogony, 711-719](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D687)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And thus Heracles involvement is a reflection of the involvement of the [Hecatoncheires](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecatoncheires) in the previous war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Regarding the temporal anomaly:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus doesn't get to the creation of man until [Book 1, Chapter 7](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D7%3Asection%3D1), and the divine conception of Heracles is not recounted until [Book 2](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D7%3Asection%3D1).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we accept that the time period figures such as [Alcmene](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcmene) and [Amphitryon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphitryon) came after the Gigantomancy, then Heracles aided the gods before he was born.  Dionysus [was also said to be involved in the battle](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Eur.+Ion+206&amp;fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0110) per Euripides, and like Heracles, would seem to have been conceived in a later, more settled age. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But Apollodorus doesn't explicitly state when the Gigantomachy occurred, and as the battle is absent in Hesiod, who is more linear, it's difficult to nail down chronologically. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems sensible that the Gigantomachy occurred before the ages of man in that there don't seem to be stories of humans being affected by the battle. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I hope this attempt to answer your very salient question is not too unsatisfactory.  My personal take, based on years of study, is that time in Greek Mythology is not strictly linear, but occurs in a sort of &quot;eternal past&quot; that is &quot;eternally present&quot;.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Further Reading**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here are some scholarly papers on the subject:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Time In Ancient Greek Literature][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Time, Tense, and Temporality in Ancient Greek Historiography][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://archive.org/stream/TimeInAncientGreekLiterature/Time%20in%20Ancient%20Greek%20Literature_djvu.txt&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.oxfordhandbooks.com/view/10.1093/oxfordhb/9780199935390.001.0001/oxfordhb-9780199935390-e-43" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10255" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2486" RevisionGUID="bb766313-dc7c-4854-b027-b1d5136affa3" CreationDate="2017-03-23T18:55:21.127" UserId="2892" Comment="Added a few scholarly links to support my conclusion and give some context to the issue." Text="I apologize for the length of this answer, per the background--the two wars are indeed distinct, as Yannis points out. Your point about temporal contradiction is valid, (and in my experience, time can be non-linear in the Greek Myths,) but there is no easy explanation.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Titanomachy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanomachy) (literally &quot;battle with the titans&quot; from the Greek &quot;[mach-ey](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ma%2Fxh&amp;la=greek&amp;can=ma%2Fxh0#lexicon)&quot;) was the original war of the Olympians, recounted vividly in [Hesiod's Theogony](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D687):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Then Zeus no longer held back his might; but straight his heart was filled with fury and he showed forth all his strength. From Heaven and from Olympus he came immediately, hurling his lightning: the bolts flew thick and fast from his strong hand together with thunder and lightning, whirling an awesome flame. The life-giving earth crashed around in burning, and the vast wood crackled loud with fire all about. All the land seethed, and Ocean's streams and the unfruitful sea. The hot vapor lapped round the earthborn Titans: flame unspeakable rose to the bright upper air&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Gigantomachy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giants_(Greek_mythology)#The_Gigantomachy) is a subsequent war, by some accounts incited by the casting down of the Titans and Gaia's dissatisfaction with that outcome: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Earth, vexed on account of the Titans, brought forth the giants&quot;.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt; Source: [Apollodorus, Library 1.6.1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D6%3Asection%3D1)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first account of Heracles aiding the gods in this battle against the giants seems to be [Pindar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pindar), a few centuries after Hesiod:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;[Zeus] stood, possessed by overwhelming astonishment and delight. For he saw the supernatural courage and power of his son&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Pindar, Nemean Odes, 1, line 55](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0162%3Abook%3DN.%3Apoem%3D1)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus consults the seer, Teiresias, who prophesies:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...that when the gods meet the giants in battle on the plain of Phlegra, the shining hair of the giants will be stained with dirt beneath the rushing arrows of [Heracles].&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: ibid. line 67-68&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This has been interpreted to mean that the gods would need the aid of a &quot;mortal&quot; to overthrow the giants (similar, perhaps, to how the Witch King in Tolkien can be killed by &quot;no man&quot;;)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Apollodorus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollodorus_of_Athens) very specifically comments on this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Now the gods had an oracle that none of the giants could perish at the hand of gods, but that with the help of a mortal they would be made an end of.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Apollodorus, Library 1.6.1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D6%3Asection%3D1)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus provides an example in the death of the giant [Alcyoneus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcyoneus):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Hercules first shot Alcyoneus with an arrow, but when the giant fell on the ground he somewhat revived. However, at Athena's advice Hercules dragged him outside Pallene, and so the giant died.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;ibid.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Note that the term &quot;simple&quot; is used in this old-fashioned translation for the actual Greek word &quot;[pharmakon](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=fa%2Frmakon&amp;la=greek&amp;can=fa%2Frmakon1&amp;prior=me\n&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0021:text=Library:book=1:chapter=6:section=1&amp;i=2)&quot;, here simply referring to a magic plant, although the term can also mean a [sacrificial victim][1].* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is possible that Heracles' legendary strength may exceed that of any god, in that he is the one who has to drag the giant.  The precedent for requirement of brute force may be said to derive from Hesiod's account of the Titanomachy:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;But until then, they kept at one another and fought continually in cruel war. And amongst the foremost Cottus and Briareos and Gyes insatiate for war raised fierce fighting: three hundred rocks, one upon another, they launched from their strong hands and overshadowed the Titans with their missiles, and hurled them beneath the wide-pathed earth, and bound them in bitter chains when they had conquered them by their strength for all their great spirit.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Theogony, 711-719](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D687)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And thus Heracles involvement is a reflection of the involvement of the [Hecatoncheires](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecatoncheires) in the previous war.  The idea would be that the Titans and Giants are [chthonic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chthonic) entities and cannot be overcome by heavenly forces alone (i.e. the thunderbolts can knock them down, but not kill them.  Note that the Titans were not killed but cast down into [Tartarus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartarus).)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Regarding the temporal anomaly:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus doesn't get to the creation of man until [Book 1, Chapter 7](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D7%3Asection%3D1), and the divine conception of Heracles is not recounted until [Book 2](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D7%3Asection%3D1).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we accept that the time period figures such as [Alcmene](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcmene) and [Amphitryon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphitryon) came after the Gigantomancy, then Heracles aided the gods before he was born.  Dionysus [was also said to be involved in the battle](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Eur.+Ion+206&amp;fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0110) per Euripides, and like Heracles, would seem to have been conceived in a later, more settled age. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But Apollodorus doesn't explicitly state when the Gigantomachy occurred, and as the battle is absent in Hesiod, who is more linear, it's difficult to nail down chronologically. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems sensible that the Gigantomachy occurred before the ages of man in that there don't seem to be stories of humans being affected by the battle. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I hope this attempt to answer your very salient question is not too unsatisfactory.  My personal take, based on years of study, is that time in Greek Mythology is not strictly linear, but occurs in a sort of &quot;eternal past&quot; that is &quot;eternally present&quot;.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Further Reading**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here are some scholarly papers on the subject:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Time In Ancient Greek Literature][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Time, Tense, and Temporality in Ancient Greek Historiography][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmakon_(philosophy)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://archive.org/stream/TimeInAncientGreekLiterature/Time%20in%20Ancient%20Greek%20Literature_djvu.txt&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.oxfordhandbooks.com/view/10.1093/oxfordhb/9780199935390.001.0001/oxfordhb-9780199935390-e-43" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10256" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2493" RevisionGUID="93646427-fe50-422e-9eee-fd6599e147e2" CreationDate="2017-03-23T20:41:55.323" UserId="2892" Text="This is a problematic question, although useful.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The problem: Is this a question regarding sources (i.e. [Pseudo Apollodorus][1] and [Pseudo-Hyginus][2] from the 2nd Century CE vs. [Sophocles][3] from the 5th Century BCE) or of chronology of overall narrative of Greek mythology?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Regarding sources: Although the specific sources about the oracle delivered to [Acrisius](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrisius) are quite late, this story almost certainly precedes them, as [Danaë](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dana%C3%AB)'s plight is referenced by the three great dramatists in one form or another, with many sources lost, such as [Euripides' Danaë](https://books.google.com/books/about/Euripides_Danae_and_Dictys.html?id=nAqVuGGSYo8C).  I'd suggest the story goes back much farther, as Hesiod mentions Perseus in relation to the Gorgon, and Homer mentions of Zeus' affair with his mother. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Regarding the chronology of myths: Perseus is one of the earliest heroes, being the grandfather of Heracles. But Cadmus was also said to have received an oracle from Delphi, and [according to this genealogy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadmus#Genealogy), would predate Perseus by several generations.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0022:text=Library:book=2:chapter=4&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusFabulae2.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0192%3Acard%3D58" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10257" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2494" RevisionGUID="69a86382-0b14-47fe-b568-f1d6267d7ffd" CreationDate="2017-03-23T22:56:05.150" UserId="2892" Text="This has been driving me absolutely nuts, as it is universally referenced across the internet, but nowhere cited.  (It looks like Theoi originally grabbed it from Encyclopedia Britannica, a non-scholarly source, back when Theoi still had a Cadmus page.  Even more frustratingly, I found an actual book on mythology that references the dead Theoi page from an internet archive.  But Theoi didn't give an attribution either.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10258" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2494" RevisionGUID="69a86382-0b14-47fe-b568-f1d6267d7ffd" CreationDate="2017-03-23T22:56:05.150" UserId="2892" Text="What is the source work for Cadmus visiting Delphi?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10259" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2494" RevisionGUID="69a86382-0b14-47fe-b568-f1d6267d7ffd" CreationDate="2017-03-23T22:56:05.150" UserId="2892" Text="|reference-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10260" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2495" RevisionGUID="3afc4273-4abe-4902-8d96-76a4fa414fc3" CreationDate="2017-03-23T22:56:14.233" UserId="2892" Text="It's [Pausanias 9.12.1&amp;2][1] (the section on Boetia.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interestingly, this section can be found on Theoi in the  W.H.S. Jones translation, although it was [Robert Graves][2]' [The Greek Myths][3] that guided me to the reference per his comprehensive and highly useful index.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0160%3Abook%3D9%3Achapter%3D12%3Asection%3D1&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Graves#Literary_career&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/820461.The_Greek_Myths" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10261" PostHistoryTypeId="36" PostId="2496" RevisionGUID="b9a1af20-d441-4203-a1d2-1b866ca9ca22" CreationDate="2017-03-24T12:22:55.537" UserId="-1" Comment="from http://history.stackexchange.com/questions/36153/are-artemis-and-bendis-the-same-goddess" />
  <row Id="10262" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2496" RevisionGUID="fc84dae4-78cf-41b5-b186-fb1db4e9b95e" CreationDate="2017-03-24T12:08:09.670" UserDisplayName="Ting Choe" Text="&gt; I went down yesterday to the Piraeus with Glaucon the son of Ariston, that I might offer up my prayers to the goddess (Bendis, the Thracian Artemis.); and also because I wanted to see in what manner they would celebrate the festival, which was a new thing. - The Republic of Plato.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They are the same? Or is there a difference?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10263" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2496" RevisionGUID="fc84dae4-78cf-41b5-b186-fb1db4e9b95e" CreationDate="2017-03-24T12:08:09.670" UserDisplayName="Ting Choe" Text="Are Artemis and Bendis the same? (goddess)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10264" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2496" RevisionGUID="fc84dae4-78cf-41b5-b186-fb1db4e9b95e" CreationDate="2017-03-24T12:08:09.670" UserDisplayName="Ting Choe" Text="|untagged|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10265" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2496" RevisionGUID="5dee697a-6a95-4b92-8a8b-2f46faeddda4" CreationDate="2017-03-24T12:23:25.410" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags; title; edited tags" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10266" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2496" RevisionGUID="5dee697a-6a95-4b92-8a8b-2f46faeddda4" CreationDate="2017-03-24T12:23:25.410" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags; title; edited tags" Text="The following quote is from Plato's _The Republic_:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I went down yesterday to the Piraeus with Glaucon the son of Ariston, that I might offer up my prayers to the goddess (Bendis, the Thracian Artemis.); and also because I wanted to see in what manner they would celebrate the festival, which was a new thing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are Artemis and Bendis the same? If not, what are their differences?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10267" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2496" RevisionGUID="5dee697a-6a95-4b92-8a8b-2f46faeddda4" CreationDate="2017-03-24T12:23:25.410" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags; title; edited tags" Text="Are Artemis and Bendis the same?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10268" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="867" RevisionGUID="51d0866a-6319-422c-8443-3e7990f6aab9" CreationDate="2017-03-24T17:16:47.440" UserId="-1" Comment="45" />
  <row Id="10269" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="867" RevisionGUID="57421903-50fd-43af-9129-1fcbcbb34444" CreationDate="2017-03-24T17:24:38.527" UserId="183" Comment="46" />
  <row Id="10270" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2497" RevisionGUID="918dc5cf-aae4-4204-a1f3-4eb405e2b0a6" CreationDate="2017-03-24T20:23:54.720" UserId="2774" Text="Thrace was a country situated in the actual north part of the Greece, a huge part of Bulgaria and the European part of the Turkey:&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1] source:Wikipedia&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What we know of Thrace is relatively simple: Thracians was not writing. Herodotus says that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 5-3 &amp; sub: the Thracians are the largest nation in all the world at least after the Indians... The only gods they whorship are Ares, Dionysos and Artemis. Their king however, unlike the rest of the citizens, whorship Hermes separatly and more frequently than the other gods&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice Herodotus uses the Greek names of the gods, wich does not help to find what could be the votive origional gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The War of the Peloponese&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------&#xD;&#xA;In 431BC Athens entered in war against Sparta (the one of 300). Athens looked for a lot of allies, some of them will be precisely those Thracians the two main reason being first they needed allies, and second Thrace was well know for its wealthy silver mines. Here is Thucydides description:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sitalkes, (...), was now sought as an ally by the Athenians, who desired his aid in the reduction of the Thracian cities and of Perdiccas [king of Macedonia]. Coming to Athens, Nymphrodorus concluded the alliance with Sitalces, made his son Sadocus an Athenian citizen, and promized to finish the war in Thrace by persuading Sitalces to send the Athenians a force of Thracian horse and peltats.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All of that is important to notice than roughly in 450 when Herodotus wrote he called Bendis Artemis, the relationship with Thrace and Athens begining toward 430. Plato writing around 380 this time mentioned Bendis, if that makes sense.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a side note, later in the war Thucydides is sent by the Athenians to protect a thracian silver mine against the Spartan general Brasidas and he is beaten, which will lead to his exile. Without the short sight of those Athenians, Thucydides would probably never have written his war of the Peloponese!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Bendis in Thrace &amp; Athens&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------&#xD;&#xA;We know little of Bendis in Thrace, Wikipedia is by the way illustrating that by showing pictures of Greek representations, here is another one, totally a Greek style:&lt;BR&gt;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;I want anyone to see that Wikipedia is totally failing to mention they are referring not to the Thracian Bendis but to the Greek Artemis-Bendis. None of their illustrations are Thracians, none of their citations Thracians, neither they mention that...&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Here is Richard Farnell notes of her:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Thracian Bendis was probably in origin and character the same as the great mother of Phrygia, and was whorshipped (...) with the same orgiastic rites(...) we also hear of Bendis as the great goddess of Lemnos to whom human victims were offered... The reasons for this association of the greek maidenly goddess with teh Bendis-Hekate-Brimo the patroness of savage magic and terrifying superstition, may have been some external ressemblance of attributes, but also probably, some consanguinity of character. Like Artemis, the Thracian divinity was supposed to ride on bulls; like Artemis, she was a mighty huntress, though her weapon was not the bow, but the spear in each hand.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So basically we see that Bendis was included in the Athenian pantheon of god roughly for political reasons namely the alliance with the Thracians. As a goddess of hunt, dark ritual magic and bulls, Bendis was linked naturally to Hekate-Artemis (note the theme of the moon). Notice that what Plato is talking about, the fact the Athenians was riding with torch in their hands is purely an Artemis ritual.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/YwCgx.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/EdKWB.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10271" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2495" RevisionGUID="5e5b0001-d41e-4a0c-a2c0-0408ffe6eeea" CreationDate="2017-03-24T20:52:05.963" UserId="2892" Comment="Added the actual quote (maybe someone will link the Wikipedia mention to Stack out of laziness;)" Text="It's [Pausanias 9.12.1&amp;2][1] (the section on Boetia):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Thebans in ancient days used to sacrifice bulls to Apollo of the Ashes. Once when the festival was being held, the hour of the sacrifice was near but those sent to fetch the bull had not arrived. And so, as a wagon happened to be near by, they sacrificed to the god one of the oxen, and ever since it has been the custom to sacrifice working oxen. The following story also is current among the Thebans. As Cadmus was leaving Delphi by the road to Phocis, a cow, it is said, guided him on his way. This cow was one bought from the herdsmen of Pelagon, and on each of her sides was a white mark like the orb of a full moon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now the oracle of the god had said that Cadmus and the host with him were to make their dwelling where the cow was going to sink down in weariness. So this is one of the places that they point out. Here there is in the open an altar and an image of Athena, said to have been dedicated by Cadmus. Those who think that the Cadmus who came to the Theban land was an Egyptian, and not a Phoenician, have their opinion contradicted by the name of this Athena, because she is called by the Phoenician name of Onga, and not by the Egyptian name of Sais.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Perseus][1]&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interestingly, this section can be found on Theoi in the  W.H.S. Jones translation, although it was [Robert Graves][2]' [The Greek Myths][3] that guided me to the reference per his comprehensive and highly useful index.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0160%3Abook%3D9%3Achapter%3D12%3Asection%3D1&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Graves#Literary_career&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/820461.The_Greek_Myths" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10272" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2476" RevisionGUID="428ad9b7-ad60-4835-a6db-508e009899fe" CreationDate="2017-03-24T23:56:10.960" UserId="2892" Comment="The full text of the poem was too much, so I took some excerpts that comment on the question specifically.  My intent was to make this answer as accessible as possible to the widest possible audience.  This poem was taught in my university's classics program, and is likely universally utilized thus " Text="[Ulysses][1], by Tennyson -- a classic poem of the aging hero. The full text may be found [here][2].  Tennyson begins the poem:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It little profits that an idle king, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; by this still hearth, among these barren crags, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; match'd with an aged wife, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; I mete and dole unequal laws unto a savage race,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; that hoard, and sleep, and feed, and know not me. &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;expressing, his sense of disconnection, being last among his generation, friends all dead; his age, via reference to his once legendarily desired wife; his idle (purposeless) existence; and the mundane world he is now hopelessly entangled in.   &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; I cannot rest from travel: I will drink life to the lees: &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;  all times I have enjoy'd greatly, have suffer'd greatly,  &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;  both with those that loved me, and alone, on shore, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Referencing his most famous of stories, great not only for his exploits but because of his legendary suffering, being the lone survivor.  He speaks of his [raging against the dying of the light][3] in his restlessness and thirst for life, and recalls how he&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  drunk delight of battle with my peers, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;   far on the ringing plains of windy Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and notes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; How dull it is to pause, to make an end, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; to rust unburnish'd, not to shine in use! &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; as tho' to breathe were life!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He goes on to talk about handing his kingdom down to his son, of his lost companions from his famous journey, all lost beneath the gloomy seas, protesting that&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Death closes all: but something ere the end,&#xD;&#xA; some work of noble note, may yet be done,&#xD;&#xA; not unbecoming men that strove with Gods.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And, ever defiant, Ulysses concludes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'T is not too late to seek a newer world. &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; Push off, and sitting well in order smite &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; The sounding furrows; for my purpose holds &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; To sail beyond the sunset, and the baths &lt;br&gt; &#xD;&#xA; Of all the western stars, until I die. &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; It may be that the gulfs will wash us down: &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; It may be we shall touch the Happy Isles, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; And see the great Achilles, whom we knew. &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho' &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; We are not now that strength which in old days &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are; &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; One equal temper of heroic hearts, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_(poem)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://library.sc.edu/spcoll/britlit/tenn/ulysses.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.poets.org/poetsorg/poem/do-not-go-gentle-good-night" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10273" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2455" RevisionGUID="0bba8a9e-ad0a-40e2-920c-dc9e336049c7" CreationDate="2017-03-25T00:04:42.320" UserId="2892" Comment="Really I was asking if she might be a troll or half-troll, (which is also *much* better for traffic, since most people never heard of Hallmund, but people love trolls;) " Text="Was Hallmund?  In Grettir's Saga, he is depicted as extraordinary, and she lives in a remote cave and is described as:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;a woman, great of growth, but shapely withal&quot;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Source: [Perseus](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2003.02.0005%3Achapter%3D62)]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I ask because Grettir's Saga has a fair amount of supernatural components, which I recall as somewhat distinct from the overall body of Icelandic sagas.  Hallmund himself is said to be of remarkable size, and describes his own interaction with the supernatural in his death poem:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;With the giant's kin &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Have I oft raised din &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;To the rock folk &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Have I dealt out stroke; &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Ill things could tell &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;That I smote full well; &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The half-trolls know &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;My baneful blow. &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Small gain in me &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Did the elf-folk see, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Or the evil wights &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Who ride anights.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------&#xD;&#xA;*PS: I seem to recall a short verse in the Fox/Palsson translation where Grettir calls himself &quot;punisher of the elves&quot;, but I couldn't located it in the Perseus text.  Is my memory incorrect?  Perhaps I am conflating it with Hallmund's verse: &quot;small gain in me did the elf-folk see&quot;?*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10274" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2455" RevisionGUID="0bba8a9e-ad0a-40e2-920c-dc9e336049c7" CreationDate="2017-03-25T00:04:42.320" UserId="2892" Comment="Really I was asking if she might be a troll or half-troll, (which is also *much* better for traffic, since most people never heard of Hallmund, but people love trolls;) " Text="Was Hallmund's daughter a troll or half-troll?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10275" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2498" RevisionGUID="e5f5e0d0-170b-4223-822f-4666c316773d" CreationDate="2017-03-25T00:48:13.697" UserId="2892" Text="It is not actually the end times, as there is no universal apocalypse in the Greek canon (so far as I know,) but only a cleansing of the world of the evil race of men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ovid is probably the best explicator.  Zeus, throughly freaked out with his run in with the original &quot;Hannibal Lecter&quot; ([Lycaon][1]), in fear of his own continued dominion over the earth in the face of such adversaries, proclaims his intent to wipe humans from the face of the earth, which some gods approved &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; but all deplored and questioned the estate of earth deprived of mortals. Who could offer frankincense upon the altars? Would he suffer earth to be despoiled by hungry beasts of prey? &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Perseus][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus initially forbids them to discuss it but&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; granted soon to people earth with race miraculous, unlike the first. &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[ibid.][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of influence, Hesiod's story is basically universally accepted by all subsequent authors.  It is of utmost significance in the canon.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Apollodorus][3] is another major source of the story of [Deucalion][4] and this [Deluge][5], but does not mention the prophecy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;C.M. Wiemer has also noted the mention of a similar [use of prophecy in Plato][6].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, you may be interested in the prophecy Ovid does reference in reference to Hesiod's story *(one of the may &quot;metas&quot; in [Metamorphoses][7];)* :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And now his thunder bolts &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;would Jove wide scatter, but he feared the flames, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;unnumbered, sacred ether might ignite &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;and burn the axle of the universe: &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;and he remembered in the scroll of fate, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;there is a time appointed when the sea &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;and earth and Heavens shall melt, and fire destroy &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;the universe of mighty labour wrought. &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Perseus][8]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Role of fate&quot; being the translator's fancification of the Latin word &quot;[fatis][9]&quot; (oracle).  This prophecy is definitely of the destruction of the universe as in end times and &quot;apocalypse&quot; and seems to be a novel addition to the canon by Ovid, about a thousand years after Hesiod. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*[[You can read a short discussion of Ovid's prophecy here.][10]]*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycaon_(Arcadia)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D163&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliotheca_(Pseudo-Apollodorus)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deucalion&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_flood_myths#Deucalion&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2463/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphoses&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D253&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=fatis&amp;la=la&amp;can=fatis0&amp;prior=in&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.02.0029:book=1:card=253&amp;i=1&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/2491/2892" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10276" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2498" RevisionGUID="891222d3-d6a1-49a8-becf-cadbdc887e2b" CreationDate="2017-03-25T00:54:15.223" UserId="2892" Comment="added 22 characters in body" Text="It is not actually the end times, as there is no universal apocalypse in the Greek canon (so far as I know,) but only a cleansing of the world of the evil race of men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ovid is probably the best explicator.  Zeus, throughly freaked out with his run in with the original &quot;Hannibal Lecter&quot; ([Lycaon][1]), in fear of his own continued dominion over the earth in the face of such adversaries, proclaims his intent to wipe humans from the face of the earth, which some gods approved &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; but all deplored and questioned the estate of earth deprived of mortals. Who could offer frankincense upon the altars? Would he suffer earth to be despoiled by hungry beasts of prey? &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Perseus][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus initially forbids them to discuss it but&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; granted soon to people earth with race miraculous, unlike the first. &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[ibid.][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of influence, Hesiod's story is basically universally accepted by all subsequent authors.  It is of utmost significance in the canon.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Apollodorus][3] is another major source of the story of [Deucalion][4] and this [Deluge][5], but does not mention the prophecy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;C.M. Wiemer has also noted the mention of a similar [use of prophecy in Plato][6] related to the Hesiod.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, you may be interested in the prophecy Ovid does reference in reference to Hesiod's story *(one of the may &quot;metas&quot; in [Metamorphoses][7];)* :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And now his thunder bolts &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;would Jove wide scatter, but he feared the flames, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;unnumbered, sacred ether might ignite &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;and burn the axle of the universe: &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;and he remembered in the scroll of fate, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;there is a time appointed when the sea &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;and earth and Heavens shall melt, and fire destroy &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;the universe of mighty labour wrought. &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Perseus][8]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Role of fate&quot; being the translator's fancification of the Latin word &quot;[fatis][9]&quot; (oracle).  This prophecy is definitely of the destruction of the universe as in end times and &quot;apocalypse&quot; and seems to be a novel addition to the canon by Ovid, about a thousand years after Hesiod. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*[[You can read a short discussion of Ovid's prophecy here.][10]]*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycaon_(Arcadia)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D163&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliotheca_(Pseudo-Apollodorus)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deucalion&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_flood_myths#Deucalion&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2463/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphoses&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D253&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=fatis&amp;la=la&amp;can=fatis0&amp;prior=in&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.02.0029:book=1:card=253&amp;i=1&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/2491/2892" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10277" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2498" RevisionGUID="67a6fa5d-ca72-4e2e-bbbe-2072ef497271" CreationDate="2017-03-25T01:03:14.110" UserId="2892" Comment="added 54 characters in body" Text="It is not actually the end times, as there is no universal apocalypse in the Greek canon (so far as I know,) but only a cleansing of the world of the evil race of men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ovid is probably the best explicator.  Zeus, throughly freaked out with his run in with the original &quot;[Hannibal Lecter][1]&quot; ([Lycaon][2]), in fear of his own continued dominion over the earth in the face of such adversaries, proclaims his intent to wipe humans from the face of the earth, which some gods approved &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; but all deplored and questioned the estate of earth deprived of mortals. Who could offer frankincense upon the altars? Would he suffer earth to be despoiled by hungry beasts of prey? &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Perseus][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus initially forbids them to discuss it but&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; granted soon to people earth with race miraculous, unlike the first. &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[ibid.][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of influence, Hesiod's story is basically universally accepted by all subsequent authors.  It is of utmost significance in the canon.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Apollodorus][4] is another major source of the story of [Deucalion][5] and this [Deluge][6], but does not mention the prophecy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;C.M. Wiemer has also noted the mention of a similar [use of prophecy in Plato][7] related to the Hesiod.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, you may be interested in the prophecy Ovid does reference in reference to Hesiod's story *(one of the may &quot;metas&quot; in [Metamorphoses][8];)* :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And now his thunder bolts &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;would Jove wide scatter, but he feared the flames, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;unnumbered, sacred ether might ignite &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;and burn the axle of the universe: &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;and he remembered in the scroll of fate, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;there is a time appointed when the sea &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;and earth and Heavens shall melt, and fire destroy &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;the universe of mighty labour wrought. &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Perseus][9]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Role of fate&quot; being the translator's fancification of the Latin word &quot;[fatis][10]&quot; (oracle).  This prophecy is definitely of the destruction of the universe as in end times and &quot;apocalypse&quot; and seems to be a novel addition to the canon by Ovid, about a thousand years after Hesiod. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*[[You can read a short discussion of Ovid's prophecy here.][11]]*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antihero&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycaon_(Arcadia)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D163&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliotheca_(Pseudo-Apollodorus)&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deucalion&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_flood_myths#Deucalion&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2463/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphoses&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D253&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=fatis&amp;la=la&amp;can=fatis0&amp;prior=in&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.02.0029:book=1:card=253&amp;i=1&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/2491/2892" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10278" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2492" RevisionGUID="fc868628-ddf6-4c5b-9b9b-b8e3eebdfe2b" CreationDate="2017-03-25T04:46:35.660" UserId="2892" Comment="added 195 characters in body" Text="1. It was quite common to sack towns on the trip to, from, and even during the war.  (Compare to the medieval Crusaders.) I don't have time to run down specific examples, but there is a discussion here: http://history.stackexchange.com/questions/32312/why-did-homer-s-greeks-sack-so-many-cities-in-the-trojan-war-does-it-make-them&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. Ostensibly the gentrified townsfolk were not fierce as their country neighbors: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Meanwhile the Cicones went and called to other Cicones who were their neighbors, at once more numerous and braver than they—men that dwelt inland and were skilled at fighting with their foes from chariots, and, if need were, on foot.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Odyssey 9, 47-50][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. Totally normal.  Completely acceptable.  Generally perceived as admirable, thus gladly recounted by Odysseus.  (See 1.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. Women were generally regarded as chattel.  The term &quot;booty&quot; is most apropos.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4(b) Only significant prizes would be worth mentioning, such as [Andromache][2].    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4(c) Yup.  They are chattel, not worth mentioning unless they previously had high status.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is part of why [Euripides][3] is so important and even radical, shedding light on characters such as [Polyxena][4], Cassandra and Hecuba, and the plight of the [Trojan Women][5], after the fall of Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;5. He was probably just relieved Odysseus spared him, even though Odysseus' actions were based on fear of Apollo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*[Sorry for the brief answers, but I thought you'd appreciate some response.  I'll likely come back and amend when I have some more time.]*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D47&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromache_(play)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euripides#A_fabled_life&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecuba_(play)&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trojan_Women#Plot" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10279" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2459" RevisionGUID="e26f5db2-549f-49e6-afdb-17d1be7c9ec5" CreationDate="2017-03-25T05:31:24.537" UserId="2892" Comment="Explained about how the Book of Songs leads to a distinct mythological tradition of sages." Text="It would be helpful if you could link to the article.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;High level answer without seeing the article would be the [Upanishads][1] for India, and the [Book of Songs][2] for China.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of the [Mesopotamian material][3], that is very old indeed, but difficult to link directly to existing cultures.  Nevertheless, the [Gilgamesh][4] is believed to be the earliest surviving work of literature and the first epic. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is worth noting that in the Chinese tradition, mythology and history are conflated until the 20th century, so much of the mythology comes out of histories by authors like [Sima Qian][5] and [Chen Shou][6].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Chinese tradition is quite distinct in that the gods are relatively minor in the literary canon, which tends to be focused on sages and the conduct.  Figures such as [Lao Tzu][7] are mythologized and become gods. The Book of Songs is said to have been compiled by [Ji Dan][8], the sage credited with the concept of the [Mandate of Heaven][9], and subsequently deified.  Lord Guan is elevated not for his military prowess so much as his impeccable conduct that made him a figure of veneration.  Xuande, whose restoration of the Han is the subject of the [Romance of the Three Kingdoms][10], can be said to be the the central figure in Chinese mythology, again, esteemed for his impeccable conduct. In the warrior epic Outlaws of the Marsh, the central figure is [Timely Rain][11], about the best epithet one could have in the agricultural society of China, where rain is the domain of dragons. Timely Rain is the weakest of the fighters, but becomes the leader because all of the heroes venerate his sagacity and cultivation. His weapon is the jian, but he is also a scholar.  (Jin Yong titled one of his [Wuxia][12] novels [The Book and the Sword][13], which can be taken as a metaphor for the Chinese tradition.)  [Huangdi][14], the Yellow Emperor, is a scholar and a sage, credited with innovation such as the calendar and mathematics. Similarly, his grandson, [Emperor Yu][15], who developed a system of flood control, regarded as the single most important factor in the development of Chinese civilization over 3000 years.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the Indian material, you may find the religious texts difficult to get through, due to the repetitions, but William Buck has excellent translations of the  [Vālmīki Ramayana][16] and [Mahabarata][17] specifically adapted for Westerners interested in the stories. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanishads&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_of_Poetry&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamia&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Records_of_the_Grand_Historian&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Records_of_the_Three_Kingdoms&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laozi&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Zhou&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandate_of_Heaven#Transition_between_the_Shang_and_the_Zhou&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_of_the_Three_Kingdoms&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_Jiang&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuxia&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_and_the_Sword&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Emperor#Achievements&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yu_the_Great#Great_Yu_controls_the_waters&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/141152.Ramayana&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/28198285-o-mahabarata" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10280" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2459" RevisionGUID="3f71db46-2e98-432e-8150-7af85dd69534" CreationDate="2017-03-25T05:42:54.197" UserId="2892" Comment="Explained about how the Book of Songs leads to a distinct mythological tradition of sages." Text="It would be helpful if you could link to the article.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;High level answer without seeing the article would be the [Upanishads][1] for India, and the [Book of Songs][2] for China.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of the [Mesopotamian material][3], that is very old indeed, but difficult to link directly to existing cultures.  Nevertheless, the [Gilgamesh][4] is believed to be the earliest surviving work of literature and the first epic. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is worth noting that in the Chinese tradition, mythology and history are conflated until the 20th century, so much of the mythology comes out of histories by authors like [Sima Qian][5] and [Chen Shou][6].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Chinese tradition is quite distinct in that the gods are relatively minor in the literary canon, which tends to be focused on sages and the conduct.  Figures such as [Lao Tzu][7] are mythologized and become gods. The Book of Songs is said to have been compiled by [Ji Dan][8], the sage credited with the concept of the [Mandate of Heaven][9], and subsequently deified.  Lord Guan is elevated not for his military prowess so much as his impeccable conduct that made him a figure of veneration.  Xuande, whose restoration of the Han is the subject of the [Romance of the Three Kingdoms][10], can be said to be the the central figure in Chinese mythology, again, esteemed for his impeccable conduct. (Compare to [Lü Bu][11] who, despite his legendary martial prowess, dies an ignominious death.) In the warrior epic [Water Margin][12], the central figure is [Timely Rain][13] (about the best epithet one could have in the agricultural society of China, where rain is the domain of dragons, and the name can be understood as the greatest of good fortunes). Timely Rain is the weakest fighters among the [Outlaws of the Marsh][14], but becomes the leader because the heroes all venerate his conduct and sagacity. He fights with a [jian][15], but is also a scholar.  (Jin Yong titled one of his [Wuxia][16] novels [The Book and the Sword][17], which can be taken as a metaphor for the Chinese tradition.)  [Huangdi][18], the Yellow Emperor, is a scholar and a sage, credited with innovation such as the calendar and mathematics. Similarly, his grandson, [Emperor Yu][19], who developed a system of flood control, regarded as the single most important factor in the development of Chinese civilization, which is continuous over 3000 years.  In this sense, the Book of Songs leads to a mythological tradition that is quite distinct.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the Indian material, you may find the religious texts difficult to get through, due to the repetitions, but William Buck has excellent translations of the  [Vālmīki Ramayana][20] and [Mahabarata][21] specifically adapted for Westerners interested in the stories. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanishads&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_of_Poetry&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamia&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Records_of_the_Grand_Historian&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Records_of_the_Three_Kingdoms&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laozi&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Zhou&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandate_of_Heaven#Transition_between_the_Shang_and_the_Zhou&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_of_the_Three_Kingdoms&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%BC_Bu#Downfall_and_death&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_Margin&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_Jiang&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/108_Stars_of_Destiny&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jian&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuxia&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_and_the_Sword&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Emperor#Achievements&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yu_the_Great#Great_Yu_controls_the_waters&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/141152.Ramayana&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/28198285-o-mahabarata" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10282" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="867" RevisionGUID="258d9763-3104-447e-a5e5-58dc714a515d" CreationDate="2017-03-25T22:04:17.287" UserId="183" Comment="46" />
  <row Id="10283" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2499" RevisionGUID="16d9dc3c-d633-442f-8638-9a1994e672e6" CreationDate="2017-03-26T02:30:51.080" UserId="3613" Text="To my knowledge Baba Yaga was never the *Hero* (the character who we typically refer to as the protagonist) in any of the stories I have heard. Nevertheless, here is an academic reference that I've found while looking it up since this piqued my interest. &#xD;&#xA;Your answer lies at the bottom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Vladimir Propp was a Soviet folklorist and scholar who analyzed the basic plot components of Russian folk tales to identify their simplest irreducible narrative elements.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He concluded that all the characters could be resolved into 7 broad character functions in the 100 tales he analyzed:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. **The villain** — an evil character that creates struggles for the hero.&#xD;&#xA; 2. **The dispatcher** — any character who illustrates the need for the&#xD;&#xA;    hero's quest and sends the hero off. This often overlaps with the&#xD;&#xA;    princess's father.&#xD;&#xA; 3. **The helper** — a typically magical entity that comes to help the hero&#xD;&#xA;    in their quest.&#xD;&#xA; 4. **The princess or prize**, and often her father — the hero deserves her&#xD;&#xA;    throughout the story but is unable to marry her as a consequence of&#xD;&#xA;    some evil or injustice, perhaps the work of the villain. The hero's&#xD;&#xA;    journey is often ended when he marries the princess, which&#xD;&#xA;    constitutes the villain's defeat.&#xD;&#xA; 5. **The donor** — a character that prepares the hero or gives the hero&#xD;&#xA;    some magical object, sometimes after testing them.&#xD;&#xA; 6. **The hero** — the character who reacts to the dispatcher and donor&#xD;&#xA;    characters, thwarts the villain, resolves any lacking or wronghoods&#xD;&#xA;    and weds the princess.&#xD;&#xA; 7. **The false hero** — a Miles Gloriosus figure who takes credit for the&#xD;&#xA;    hero's actions or tries to marry the princess.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Vladimir Propp's folktale morphology, ***Baba Yaga*** commonly appears as either a **donor** or **villain**, or may be altogether ambiguous.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is a link to a PDF version of his book I found online - [Morphology of the folktale][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://monoskop.org/images/f/f3/Propp_Vladimir_Morphology_of_the_Folktale_2nd_ed.pdf &quot;Morphology of the folktale&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10285" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2501" RevisionGUID="a1b0ea99-d97d-41e6-862d-1c82661c3cf1" CreationDate="2017-03-26T22:41:20.503" UserId="3171" Text="Are the muses - a set of deities, each corresponding to a specific form of art - a unique Graeco-Roman invention or are there parallels in other mythologies?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10286" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2501" RevisionGUID="a1b0ea99-d97d-41e6-862d-1c82661c3cf1" CreationDate="2017-03-26T22:41:20.503" UserId="3171" Text="Are there any groups similar to the muses in other religions?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10287" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2501" RevisionGUID="a1b0ea99-d97d-41e6-862d-1c82661c3cf1" CreationDate="2017-03-26T22:41:20.503" UserId="3171" Text="|greek|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10288" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2502" RevisionGUID="bb37d49f-6f43-4273-bd22-bd746448f64d" CreationDate="2017-03-27T05:10:27.473" UserId="3564" Text="The Eastern Vedic texts which details out spiritual philosophy, histories and stories are extremely old. Here is [a timeline][1] of Hindu texts I came across on Wikipedia. The Vedic texts themselves declare that they are the oldest of all knowledge as it's eternal with no influence of time and made available during each creation cycle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Hindu_texts" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10290" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2503" RevisionGUID="abc157a9-01e3-48ac-9092-b06ff462adb5" CreationDate="2017-03-27T08:01:09.817" UserId="57" Text="The identity of the muse John Milton invokes in the opening of Book I in _Paradise Lost_ is revealed in Book VII: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Descend from Heav'n Urania, by that name  &#xD;&#xA;If rightly thou art call'd, whose Voice divine  &#xD;&#xA;Following, above th' Olympian Hill I soare,  &#xD;&#xA;Above the flight of Pegasean wing.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Paradise Lost (1674)/Book VII. (2013, November 18). In Wikisource . Retrieved 07:53, March 27, 2017, from https://en.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=Paradise_Lost_(1674)/Book_VII&amp;oldid=4668224&#xD;&#xA;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is Milton seeking inspiration from the muse of astronomy?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10291" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2503" RevisionGUID="abc157a9-01e3-48ac-9092-b06ff462adb5" CreationDate="2017-03-27T08:01:09.817" UserId="57" Text="Why is Milton invoking Urania?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10292" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2503" RevisionGUID="abc157a9-01e3-48ac-9092-b06ff462adb5" CreationDate="2017-03-27T08:01:09.817" UserId="57" Text="|untagged|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10298" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2505" RevisionGUID="29bc695d-0ffb-432c-a747-29979b08782c" CreationDate="2017-03-27T22:16:20.333" UserId="3474" Text="I want to know whether the Greek creator of the universe is a woman or man. I looked at many resources and each said one or the other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks in advance." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10299" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2505" RevisionGUID="29bc695d-0ffb-432c-a747-29979b08782c" CreationDate="2017-03-27T22:16:20.333" UserId="3474" Text="Is it Lady Chaos or Lord Chaos" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10300" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2505" RevisionGUID="29bc695d-0ffb-432c-a747-29979b08782c" CreationDate="2017-03-27T22:16:20.333" UserId="3474" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10301" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2506" RevisionGUID="0534dc6a-942f-4240-8b3f-11ad59dee61f" CreationDate="2017-03-28T00:24:54.507" UserId="967" Text="Theoi's thing, the summary, says that it's a goddess&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;KHAOS (Chaos) was the first of the primordial gods (protogenoi) to emerge at the dawn of creation. **She** was followed in quick succession by Gaia (Gaea, Earth), Tartaros (the Pit Below) and Eros (Procreation).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Khaos was the lower atmosphere which surrounds the earth--both the invisible air and the gloom of fog and mist. The word khaos means &quot;gap&quot; or &quot;chasm&quot; being the space between heaven and earth. Khaos was the mother and grandmother of the other misty essences--Erebos (the mists of netherworld darkness), Aither (the ethereal mists of heaven), Nyx (the night) and Hemera (the day), as well as the numerous emotion-driving Daimones (Spirits) which haunted it. She was also a **goddess** of fate like her daughter Nyx and grand-daughters the Moirai (Moirae).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;As the **goddess** of the air Khaos was also the mother of birds, just as Gaia (the Earth) was the mother of land animals, and Thalassa (the Sea) was the mother of fish.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A primary source:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Aristophanes, Birds 685 ff (trans. O'Neill) (Greek comedy C5th to 4th B.C.) :*  &#xD;&#xA;&quot;At the beginning there was only Khaos (Chaos, the Chasm) [Air], Nyx (Night), dark Erebos (Darkness), and deep Tartaros (the Pit). Ge (Gaea, Earth), Aer (Air) [Aither] and Ouranos (Uranus, Heaven) had no existence. Firstly, black-winged Nyx (Night) laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebos (Darkness), and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros (Desire) with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. **He mated [or fertilised]** in deep Tartaros (the Pit) **with dark Khaos** (Chaos, the Chasm) [Air], winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race [the birds], which was the first to see the light.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Being able to be fertilized generally means you're a girl. Or something's wrong.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But some primary sources disagree?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Seneca, Hercules Furens 1100 ff (trans. Miller) (Roman tragedy C1st A.D.) :*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Let the heavens hear **his** mighty groans, let the queen of the dark world [Persephone] hear . . . let Chaos re-echo the outcries of **his** grief.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Seems to just be very ambiguous, and as Spencer states, Khaos is probably gender neutral. Then again, mythology is weird. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10308" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2509" RevisionGUID="fe5c11fd-12e8-4f30-8902-775a041e887e" CreationDate="2017-03-28T19:09:12.697" UserId="2892" Text="It is correct that the noun can be either masculine or [neuter][1]: [chaos][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perseus doesn't have an English translation, but [the Latin can be found here][3], with links to the lexicon for each word:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Resonet maesto clamore chaos&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;lateque patens unda profundi:&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Seneca, Hercules Furens, Rudolf Peiper, Gustav Richter, Ed., 1108-9&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notable that in the above passage that chaos is not capitalized, which may be an indication of the concept as opposed to a direct personification.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Aristophanes however, Chaos ([Χάους][4]) is capitalized and may be either masculine or feminine. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interestingly, the specific form on the word seems to adjectival, despite clearly being used as a proper noun, and plural.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [English O'Neil text may be found on Perseus][5] with the [Greek text linked][6].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;*I'm going to try and run down some of the other sources and will likely amend, but I thought you'd appreciate some more detail and clarification on the sources already proposed.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.memidex.com/neut+grammar&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=chaos&amp;la=la&amp;can=chaos0&amp;prior=clamore&amp;d=Perseus:text:2007.01.0003:card=1054&amp;i=1&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2007.01.0003%3Acard%3D1054&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=*xa%2Fous&amp;la=greek&amp;can=*xa%2Fous0&amp;prior=te&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0025:card=685&amp;i=1#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0026%3Acard%3D685&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0025%3Acard%3D685" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10309" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2509" RevisionGUID="d5f45194-d756-49c0-999a-905a0a74edd0" CreationDate="2017-03-28T19:38:31.140" UserId="2892" Comment="Added the Virgil, and a note on the consistency of the ambiguity of the word forms. " Text="It is correct that the noun can be either masculine or [neuter][1]: [chaos][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perseus doesn't have an English translation, but [the Latin can be found here][3], with links to the lexicon for each word:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Resonet maesto clamore chaos&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;lateque patens unda profundi:&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Seneca, Hercules Furens, Rudolf Peiper, Gustav Richter, Ed., 1108-9&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notable that in the above passage that &quot;chaos&quot; is not capitalized, which may be an indication of the concept as opposed to a direct personification.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Aristophanes however, Chaos ([Χάους][4]) is capitalized and may be either masculine or feminine. Interestingly, the specific form on the word seems to adjectival, despite clearly being used as a proper noun.  The form is also plural, but I can't tell you definitively if this is intended (i.e. is &quot;Chaos&quot; a single being or [multipartite][5].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [English O'Neil text may be found on Perseus][6] with the [Greek text linked][7].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Virgil reference ([Georgics 4. 345 ff][8]) uses &quot;[Chao][9]&quot;, which again may be either masculine or neuter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;*I'm going to try and run down some of the other sources and will likely amend, but I thought you'd appreciate some more detail and clarification on the sources already proposed.  (Part of the problem is I'm having trouble locating online sources in the original language for many of the authors, such as the Callimachus Aetia Fragment 2, and would have to dig out actual books;)  **Right now, it's looking like there is a strong case for a gender-neutral personification of Chaos.***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.memidex.com/neut+grammar&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=chaos&amp;la=la&amp;can=chaos0&amp;prior=clamore&amp;d=Perseus:text:2007.01.0003:card=1054&amp;i=1&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2007.01.0003%3Acard%3D1054&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=*xa%2Fous&amp;la=greek&amp;can=*xa%2Fous0&amp;prior=te&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0025:card=685&amp;i=1#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/multipartite&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0026%3Acard%3D685&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0025%3Acard%3D685&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0058%3Abook%3D4%3Acard%3D333&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=Chao&amp;la=la&amp;can=chao0&amp;prior=aque&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.02.0059:book=4:card=333&amp;i=1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10310" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2509" RevisionGUID="581ad2ca-229e-4ce6-824c-17e6e974d1bc" CreationDate="2017-03-28T19:48:32.810" UserId="2892" Comment="Added Quintus Smyrnaeus and corrected the categorization of Χάους" Text="It is correct that the noun can be either masculine or [neuter][1]: [chaos][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perseus doesn't have an English translation, but [the Latin can be found here][3], with links to the lexicon for each word:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Resonet maesto clamore chaos&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;lateque patens unda profundi:&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Seneca, Hercules Furens, Rudolf Peiper, Gustav Richter, Ed., 1108-9&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notable that in the above passage that &quot;chaos&quot; is not capitalized, which may be an indication of the concept as opposed to a direct personification.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Aristophanes however, Chaos ([Χάους][4]) is capitalized, singular and neuter. *(Note that the specific form on the word may also be adjectival, and in that form is plural. I'm not sure this can be taken as an indication that Chaos is [multipartite][5], but it's an interesting thought!)*  The [English O'Neil text may be found on Perseus][6] with the [Greek text linked][7].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Quintus Smyrnaeus, Fall of Troy (3.755), about 8 centuries after Aristophanes, uses the same form (Χάους). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Virgil reference ([Georgics 4. 345 ff][8]) uses &quot;[Chao][9]&quot;, which again may be either masculine or neuter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;*I'm going to try and run down some of the other sources and will likely amend, but I thought you'd appreciate some more detail and clarification on the sources already proposed.  (Part of the problem is I'm having trouble locating online sources in the original language for many of the authors, such as the Callimachus Aetia Fragment 2, and would have to dig out actual books;)  **Right now, it's looking like there is a strong case for a gender-neutral personification of Chaos.***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.memidex.com/neut+grammar&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=chaos&amp;la=la&amp;can=chaos0&amp;prior=clamore&amp;d=Perseus:text:2007.01.0003:card=1054&amp;i=1&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2007.01.0003%3Acard%3D1054&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=*xa%2Fous&amp;la=greek&amp;can=*xa%2Fous0&amp;prior=te&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0025:card=685&amp;i=1#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/multipartite&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0026%3Acard%3D685&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0025%3Acard%3D685&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0058%3Abook%3D4%3Acard%3D333&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=Chao&amp;la=la&amp;can=chao0&amp;prior=aque&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.02.0059:book=4:card=333&amp;i=1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10311" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2509" RevisionGUID="f1218e18-0039-4424-81b5-6378fae2b779" CreationDate="2017-03-28T19:55:59.833" UserId="2892" Comment="Added the Hesiod source" Text="It is correct that the noun can be either masculine or [neuter][1]: [chaos][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perseus doesn't have an English translation, but [the Latin can be found here][3], with links to the lexicon for each word:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Resonet maesto clamore chaos&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;lateque patens unda profundi:&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Seneca, Hercules Furens, Rudolf Peiper, Gustav Richter, Ed., 1108-9&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notable that in the above passage that &quot;chaos&quot; is not capitalized, which may be an indication of the concept as opposed to a direct personification.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Aristophanes however, Chaos ([Χάους][4]) is capitalized, singular and neuter. *(Note that the specific form on the word may also be adjectival, and in that form is plural. I'm not sure this can be taken as an indication that Chaos is [multipartite][5], but it's an interesting thought!)*  The [English O'Neil text may be found on Perseus][6] with the [Greek text linked][7].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Quintus Smyrnaeus, Fall of Troy (3.755)][8], about 8 centuries after Aristophanes, uses the same form (Χάους). Unfortunately, the Perseus Greek text does not seem to be linked to an English translation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Virgil reference ([Georgics 4. 345 ff][9]) uses &quot;[Chao][10]&quot;, which again may be either masculine or neuter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod, in the [Theogony (line 116)][11] uses [Χάος][12], which again, is neuter in the intended nominative form, but in the adjectival form may be either masculine or feminine. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;*I'm going to try and run down even more sources and will likely continue to amend, as it is a very interesting question!(Part of the problem is I'm having trouble locating online sources in the original language for many of the authors, such as the Callimachus Aetia Fragment 2, and would have to dig out actual books;)  **Right now, it's looking like there is a strong case for a gender-neutral personification of Chaos.***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.memidex.com/neut+grammar&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=chaos&amp;la=la&amp;can=chaos0&amp;prior=clamore&amp;d=Perseus:text:2007.01.0003:card=1054&amp;i=1&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2007.01.0003%3Acard%3D1054&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=*xa%2Fous&amp;la=greek&amp;can=*xa%2Fous0&amp;prior=te&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0025:card=685&amp;i=1#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/multipartite&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0026%3Acard%3D685&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0025%3Acard%3D685&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0490%3Abook%3D3&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0058%3Abook%3D4%3Acard%3D333&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=Chao&amp;la=la&amp;can=chao0&amp;prior=aque&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.02.0059:book=4:card=333&amp;i=1&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D104&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=*xa%2Fos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=*xa%2Fos0&amp;prior=prw/tista&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0129:card=104&amp;i=1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10312" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2509" RevisionGUID="b07a78a7-03b5-4712-915c-31dbc7a6780a" CreationDate="2017-03-28T20:05:05.377" UserId="2892" Comment="Added a note on the Greek origin, as the initial linguistic comment was on the Latin form, which should be taken as secondary to the Greek, which goes back to Hesiod." Text="It is correct that the Latin noun used by Seneca ([chaos][2]) can be either masculine *or* [neuter][1], but it is important to note the concept derives from the Greek, with Hesiod as the likely original textual source, and there is definitively neuter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perseus doesn't have an English translation of the Seneca, but [the Latin can be found here][3], with links to the lexicon for each word:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Resonet maesto clamore chaos&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;lateque patens unda profundi:&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Seneca, Hercules Furens, Rudolf Peiper, Gustav Richter, Ed., 1108-9&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notable that in the above passage that &quot;chaos&quot; is not capitalized, which may be an indication of the concept as opposed to a direct personification.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Aristophanes however, Chaos ([Χάους][4]) is capitalized, singular and neuter. *(Note that the specific form on the word may also be adjectival, and in that form is plural. I'm not sure this can be taken as an indication that Chaos is [multipartite][5], but it's an interesting thought!)*  The [English O'Neil text may be found on Perseus][6] with the [Greek text linked][7].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Quintus Smyrnaeus, Fall of Troy (3.755)][8], about eight centuries after Aristophanes, uses the same form (Χάους). Unfortunately, the Perseus Greek text does not seem to be linked to an English translation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Virgil reference ([Georgics 4. 345 ff][9]) uses &quot;[Chao][10]&quot;, which again may be either masculine or neuter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod, in the [Theogony (line 116)][11] uses [Χάος][12], which again, is neuter in the intended nominative form, but in the adjectival form may be either masculine or feminine. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;*I'm going to try and run down even more sources and will likely continue to amend, as it is a very interesting question!(Part of the problem is I'm having trouble locating online sources in the original language for many of the authors, such as the Callimachus Aetia Fragment 2, and would have to dig out actual books;)  **Right now, it's looking like there is a strong case for a gender-neutral personification of Chaos.***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.memidex.com/neut+grammar&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=chaos&amp;la=la&amp;can=chaos0&amp;prior=clamore&amp;d=Perseus:text:2007.01.0003:card=1054&amp;i=1&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2007.01.0003%3Acard%3D1054&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=*xa%2Fous&amp;la=greek&amp;can=*xa%2Fous0&amp;prior=te&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0025:card=685&amp;i=1#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/multipartite&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0026%3Acard%3D685&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0025%3Acard%3D685&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0490%3Abook%3D3&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0058%3Abook%3D4%3Acard%3D333&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=Chao&amp;la=la&amp;can=chao0&amp;prior=aque&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.02.0059:book=4:card=333&amp;i=1&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D104&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=*xa%2Fos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=*xa%2Fos0&amp;prior=prw/tista&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0129:card=104&amp;i=1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10314" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2510" RevisionGUID="b04c81bf-9da9-44a7-a368-d21e04b5cd01" CreationDate="2017-03-28T20:54:15.837" UserId="2892" Text="I'd say the following passage provides the direct answer:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The meaning, not the Name I call: for thou&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Nor of the Muses nine, nor on the top&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Of old Olympus dwell'st, but Heav'nlie borne,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Before the Hills appeerd, or Fountain flow'd,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Thou with Eternal Wisdom didst converse...&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Paradise Lost, Book 7, lines 5-9][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Milton goes on to describe her as a guide for a journey to the heavens and safe return to earth:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Up led by thee&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Into the Heav'n of Heav'ns I have presum'd,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;An Earthlie Guest, and drawn Empyreal Aire,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As Urania existed before &quot;the Hills appeard&quot;, it makes sense to ask her of pre-historic events: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Say Goddess, what ensu'd when Raphael,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The affable Arch-Angel, had forewarn'd&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Adam by dire example to beware... &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't claim to be an expert on Milton, but he seems to be invoking the primal form of Urania as an something of a personified prime mover (i.e. a natural law, although Newton's [Principia][2] wouldn't be published for another 13 years.) Research into [Milton's philosophy][3] may provide more insight.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It might also be worth looking at [Herodotus' Histories][4] because the work was at some point divided into sections, with Section 7 being named for [Urania][4] *(The [English and Greek texts can be found on Perseus][5])*. I don't know if Milton would have had access to this specific text, but he did write in Greek and Latin...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, simply based on Ovid's profound influence in Shakespeare, I have no doubt Milton knew Ovid intimately.  Ovid mentions Urania in his [Fasti][6]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Polyhymnia ended. Clio and Thalia, mistress of the curved lyre, approved her words. Urania took up the tale; all kept silence and not a voice but hers could be heard. &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Ovid, Fasti, Book 5, line 53-55 (Frazer trans.)][7] | [Latin Text available on Perseus][8]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ovid has Urania comment on the reverence for the wisdom of elders in past eras:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Great was of old the reverence for the hoary head, and wrinkled eld was valued at its true worth. Martial exploits and doughty wars were work for youths, who in defence o their own gods kept watch and ward. In strength unequal, and for arms unfit, age often stood the country in good stead by its advice...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which seems to fit quite nicely with Milton's note that &quot;[Urania] with Eternal Wisdom didst converse&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=Paradise_Lost_(1674)/Book_VII&amp;oldid=4668224&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophi%C3%A6_Naturalis_Principia_Mathematica&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Milton#Philosophy&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histories_(Herodotus)#Book_VIII_.28Urania.29&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126%3Abook%3D7%3Achapter%3D1%3Asection%3D1&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasti&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidFasti5.html&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0547%3Abook%3D5" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10316" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2506" RevisionGUID="7137e470-3d53-41d0-8134-cf15aa3c6da2" CreationDate="2017-03-28T23:40:01.553" UserId="967" Comment="deleted 401 characters in body" Text="Theoi's thing, the summary, says that it's a goddess&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;KHAOS (Chaos) was the first of the primordial gods (protogenoi) to emerge at the dawn of creation. **She** was followed in quick succession by Gaia (Gaea, Earth), Tartaros (the Pit Below) and Eros (Procreation).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Khaos was the lower atmosphere which surrounds the earth--both the invisible air and the gloom of fog and mist. The word khaos means &quot;gap&quot; or &quot;chasm&quot; being the space between heaven and earth. Khaos was the mother and grandmother of the other misty essences--Erebos (the mists of netherworld darkness), Aither (the ethereal mists of heaven), Nyx (the night) and Hemera (the day), as well as the numerous emotion-driving Daimones (Spirits) which haunted it. She was also a **goddess** of fate like her daughter Nyx and grand-daughters the Moirai (Moirae).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;As the **goddess** of the air Khaos was also the mother of birds, just as Gaia (the Earth) was the mother of land animals, and Thalassa (the Sea) was the mother of fish.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A primary source:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Aristophanes, Birds 685 ff (trans. O'Neill) (Greek comedy C5th to 4th B.C.) :*  &#xD;&#xA;&quot;At the beginning there was only Khaos (Chaos, the Chasm) [Air], Nyx (Night), dark Erebos (Darkness), and deep Tartaros (the Pit). Ge (Gaea, Earth), Aer (Air) [Aither] and Ouranos (Uranus, Heaven) had no existence. Firstly, black-winged Nyx (Night) laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebos (Darkness), and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros (Desire) with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. **He mated [or fertilised]** in deep Tartaros (the Pit) **with dark Khaos** (Chaos, the Chasm) [Air], winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race [the birds], which was the first to see the light.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Being able to be fertilized generally means you're a girl. Or something's wrong." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10320" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2512" RevisionGUID="8db4eee8-ae94-407c-bc0d-5ad89af7bee0" CreationDate="2017-03-30T19:46:06.037" UserId="908" Text="In essence God is formless, colourless, `[He is in everything and everything is with in Him][1]`. ( Refer to stanza 24 in Phalashruti)  He lives in everything (Sarva bhootha nivaso asi Vasudeva namosthuthe)   &#xA;&#xA;[Vishnu Sahasranaam Stotra][2] : This stotra is the stuti of Lord Krishna made Shri Bhismacharya for advising 'How to Rule the kingdom, what are the ideals which one should follow while ruling the kingdom? etc ' to the would be King Yudhistir, after the famous Mahabharata Epic war in the history which was won by Pandavas. This stuti comes under Mahabharata book in 11 parva or you can also say 11 chapter. &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.ahladam.com/devotional/vishnu-sahasra/vishnu-sahasranamam-english-translation.php/5&#xA;  [2]: http://www.shivkumar.org/music/vishnu-sahasranamam-meanings.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10321" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2512" RevisionGUID="77bdb282-aeb8-4fa7-99d6-8f9713c6ec80" CreationDate="2017-03-30T20:13:03.200" UserId="908" Comment="added 1821 characters in body; added 15 characters in body" Text="In essence God is formless, colourless, `[He is in everything and everything is with in Him][1]`. ( Refer to stanza 24 in Phalashruti)  He lives in everything (Sarva bhootha nivaso asi Vasudeva namosthuthe)   &#xA;&#xA;[Vishnu Sahasranaam Stotra][2] : This stotra is the stuti of Lord Krishna made Shri Bhismacharya for advising 'How to Rule the kingdom, what are the ideals which one should follow while ruling the kingdom? etc ' to the would be King Yudhistir, after the famous Mahabharata Epic war in the history which was won by Pandavas. This stuti comes under Mahabharata book in 11 parva or you can also say 11 chapter. &#xA;&#xA;For the colors of hindu deities here is the [link][3]&#xA;&#xA;I know you might not like my answer below but here is what I have observed after reading few books or puranas:&#xA;&#xA; Basically, the images which we see today of our respected Gods, are trying to say something, but what do we understand? say for example I want to show in an draw a person who is calm, knowledgeable, leader, good at warfare, good at yoga or meditation  or say beautiful then in previous ages of mankind as there was no digital photography which can rake live photos or whatever so what the intelligent people did is they gave symbols, these symbols are like anagrams or coded language it goes like : &#xA;&#xA;1. Calmness : shown by slight smile on their face.&#xA;&#xA;2. Knowledge: As we all know Lotus is a symbol of knowledge, I know this as my school had a batch which had lotus on it and motto line as 'knowledge is power'.&#xA;&#xA;3. Leader: showing lots of other people may be gods in this case facing towards their leader. thats a sign of leadership.&#xA;&#xA;4. Good at warefare: showing weapons in thier hands especially.&#xA;&#xA;5. Good at Yoga / is in Meditation: 3/4 th of his / her eyes are closed. only 1/4 th open.&#xA;&#xA;6. Beautiful: Many ways to show this, how about showing a slim body structure etc. &#xA;&#xA;And similarly the colors as well say a lot of things related to their respective characteristics i.e&#xA;&#xA;1.  Red = Anger/ war/ destruction with respect to preserving the good and destruction or rooting out the bad from society or community.&#xA;&#xA;2. Blue : Attractive, loving, caring, peaceful nature. &#xA;&#xA;3. White: Agreeing to 1st answer in post Nirlipta. It also shows Pure-ness.&#xA;&#xA;Such types of meanings can be derived from the pictures, I will try to search and add supporting links for the last paragraph.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.ahladam.com/devotional/vishnu-sahasra/vishnu-sahasranamam-english-translation.php/5&#xA;  [2]: http://www.shivkumar.org/music/vishnu-sahasranamam-meanings.htm&#xA;  [3]: http://www.newsgram.com/spiritual-significance-of-colours-in-hinduism-read-here/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10323" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2513" RevisionGUID="12e1e9a7-918c-4b61-b9ec-65754858f2c3" CreationDate="2017-03-30T21:49:06.140" UserId="2892" Text="You really want to look at [Ravana][1] from Hindu mythology.  Chopping off his head was not effective as a means of killing him *(and in fact, Ravana is quite content to chop off his own heads;)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of death per dismemberment, to support Lauren Ipsum's answer (which should be the accepted answer, imo) Zeus' son, [Dionysus][2], was torn apart by titans and bounced back.  *(&quot;He's a fighter&quot; in the parlance of modern, medical dramas.)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Osiris][3] was also famously dismembered and returned to life, demonstrating the ancient origin of this idea. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Norse Gods can be killed.  Greek gods not so much.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://hinduism.stackexchange.com/a/2324&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omophagia&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris#Osirism" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10325" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2513" RevisionGUID="301b3d5a-39ed-43cf-ba43-d3eec924680b" CreationDate="2017-03-30T21:55:22.753" UserId="2892" Comment="added 108 characters in body" Text="You really want to look at [Ravana][1] from Hindu mythology.  Chopping off his head was not effective as a means of killing him *(and in fact, Ravana is quite content to chop off his own heads;)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of death per dismemberment, to further support Lauren Ipsum's answer, Zeus' son, [Dionysus][2], was torn apart by titans and bounced back.  *(&quot;He's a fighter&quot; in the parlance of modern, medical dramas.)*  Thus, if the father of Zeus and the son of Zeus both survived dismemberment, it would be a reasonable assumption Zeus would also survive it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Osiris][3] was also famously dismembered and returned to life, demonstrating the ancient origin of this idea. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Norse Gods can be killed.  Greek gods not so much.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://hinduism.stackexchange.com/a/2324&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omophagia&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris#Osirism" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10327" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2514" RevisionGUID="62b10cde-8823-4853-81a4-b473ff5dcb7b" CreationDate="2017-03-31T04:10:53.540" UserId="3564" Text="&#xD;&#xA;I found an answer with regards to body colours of Lord Krishna here - [http://www.iskcondesiretree.com/page/six-categories-of-avatars][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When He descends into the material world during different &quot;yugas&quot; or ages, He assumes 4 main colours. The Four yugas (Ages) come in cycles and are as follows:&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;1. Satya yuga, lasting 1,728,000 years &#xD;&#xA;2. Treta yuga, lasting 1,296,000 years &#xD;&#xA;3. Dwapara yuga, lasting 864,000 years &#xD;&#xA;4. Kali yuga, lasting 432,000 years (this is the current age)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Srimad Bhagavatam (compiled 5000 years ago), there is this verse:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;asan varnas trayo hy asya /&#xD;&#xA;grhnato ‘nuyugam tanuh /&#xD;&#xA;suklo raktas tatha pita /&#xD;&#xA;idanim krishnatam gatah&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Krishna appears as an incarnation in every millennium. In the past,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He assumed three different colors - **white, red and yellow** - and now he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; has appeared in a **blackish** color.” &#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 10, Chapter 8, Verse 13&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The colours per yuga are as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Satya yuga, He appeared as Sage Kardama Muni in a **white** complexion to establish meditation as the process for self-realization.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Treta yuga, He appeared with a **red** complexion to Brahma to establish fire sacrifice as the process for self-realization.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Dvapara yuga, a **dark** avatara (Krishna) appeared as the son of Devaki to establish temple worship as the process for self-realization.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Kali yuga, a **Yellow** avatara appeared (Chaitanya Mahaprabhu) as the  son of Mother Sachi to establish the chanting of the holy names (nama-sankirtana) as the process for self-realization. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hope this helps :)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.iskcondesiretree.com/page/six-categories-of-avatars" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10328" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2512" RevisionGUID="d609d099-7bf5-45db-8b55-da35fb89b5fd" CreationDate="2017-03-31T07:28:35.660" UserId="908" Comment="added 12 characters in body" Text="In essence God is formless, colourless, [He is in everything and everything is with in Him][1]. ( Refer to stanza 24 in Phalashruti)  He lives in everything ( Search for 'Sarva bhootha nivaso asi Vasudeva namosthuthe')   &#xA;&#xA;[Vishnu Sahasranaam Stotra][2] : This stotra is the stuti of Lord Krishna made Shri Bhismacharya for advising 'How to Rule the kingdom, what are the ideals which one should follow while ruling the kingdom? etc ' to the would be King Yudhistir, after the famous Mahabharata Epic war in the history which was won by Pandavas. This stuti comes under Mahabharata book in 11 parva or you can also say 11 chapter. &#xA;&#xA;For the colors of hindu deities here is the [link][3]&#xA;&#xA;I know you might not like my answer below but here is what I have observed after reading few books or puranas:&#xA;&#xA; Basically, the images which we see today of our respected Gods, are trying to say something, but what do we understand? say for example I want to show in an draw a person who is calm, knowledgeable, leader, good at warfare, good at yoga or meditation  or say beautiful then in previous ages of mankind as there was no digital photography which can rake live photos or whatever so what the intelligent people did is they gave symbols, these symbols are like anagrams or coded language it goes like : &#xA;&#xA;1. Calmness : shown by slight smile on their face.&#xA;&#xA;2. Knowledge: As we all know Lotus is a symbol of knowledge, I know this as my school had a batch which had lotus on it and motto line as 'knowledge is power'.&#xA;&#xA;3. Leader: showing lots of other people may be gods in this case facing towards their leader. thats a sign of leadership.&#xA;&#xA;4. Good at warefare: showing weapons in thier hands especially.&#xA;&#xA;5. Good at Yoga / is in Meditation: 3/4 th of his / her eyes are closed. only 1/4 th open.&#xA;&#xA;6. Beautiful: Many ways to show this, how about showing a slim body structure etc. &#xA;&#xA;And similarly the colors as well say a lot of things related to their respective characteristics i.e&#xA;&#xA;1.  Red = Anger/ war/ destruction with respect to preserving the good and destruction or rooting out the bad from society or community.&#xA;&#xA;2. Blue : Attractive, loving, caring, peaceful nature. &#xA;&#xA;3. White: Agreeing to 1st answer in post Nirlipta. It also shows Pure-ness.&#xA;&#xA;Such types of meanings can be derived from the pictures, I will try to search and add supporting links for the last paragraph.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.ahladam.com/devotional/vishnu-sahasra/vishnu-sahasranamam-english-translation.php/5&#xA;  [2]: http://www.shivkumar.org/music/vishnu-sahasranamam-meanings.htm&#xA;  [3]: http://www.newsgram.com/spiritual-significance-of-colours-in-hinduism-read-here/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10329" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2512" RevisionGUID="379d9833-2cf4-4d22-a685-32ba3e0394c8" CreationDate="2017-03-31T07:33:36.547" UserId="908" Comment="added 98 characters in body" Text="In essence God is formless, colourless, [He is in everything and everything is with in Him][1]. ( Refer to stanza 24 in Phalashruti)  He lives in everything ( Search for '*Vyasa Uvacha:-&#xA;Vasanad Vasudevasya vasitham bhuvana trayam,&#xA;Sarva bhutha nivasosi vasudeva namosthuthe.&#xA;Sri Vasudeva namosthuthe om nama ithi*')   &#xA;&#xA;[Vishnu Sahasranaam Stotra][2] : This stotra is the stuti of Lord Krishna made Shri Bhismacharya for advising 'How to Rule the kingdom, what are the ideals which one should follow while ruling the kingdom? etc ' to the would be King Yudhistir, after the famous Mahabharata Epic war in the history which was won by Pandavas. This stuti comes under Mahabharata book in 11 parva or you can also say 11 chapter. &#xA;&#xA;For the colors of hindu deities here is the [link][3]&#xA;&#xA;I know you might not like my answer below but here is what I have observed after reading few books or puranas:&#xA;&#xA; Basically, the images which we see today of our respected Gods, are trying to say something, but what do we understand? say for example I want to show in an draw a person who is calm, knowledgeable, leader, good at warfare, good at yoga or meditation  or say beautiful then in previous ages of mankind as there was no digital photography which can rake live photos or whatever so what the intelligent people did is they gave symbols, these symbols are like anagrams or coded language it goes like : &#xA;&#xA;1. Calmness : shown by slight smile on their face.&#xA;&#xA;2. Knowledge: As we all know Lotus is a symbol of knowledge, I know this as my school had a batch which had lotus on it and motto line as 'knowledge is power'.&#xA;&#xA;3. Leader: showing lots of other people may be gods in this case facing towards their leader. thats a sign of leadership.&#xA;&#xA;4. Good at warefare: showing weapons in thier hands especially.&#xA;&#xA;5. Good at Yoga / is in Meditation: 3/4 th of his / her eyes are closed. only 1/4 th open.&#xA;&#xA;6. Beautiful: Many ways to show this, how about showing a slim body structure etc. &#xA;&#xA;And similarly the colors as well say a lot of things related to their respective characteristics i.e&#xA;&#xA;1.  Red = Anger/ war/ destruction with respect to preserving the good and destruction or rooting out the bad from society or community.&#xA;&#xA;2. Blue : Attractive, loving, caring, peaceful nature. &#xA;&#xA;3. White: Agreeing to 1st answer in post Nirlipta. It also shows Pure-ness.&#xA;&#xA;Such types of meanings can be derived from the pictures, I will try to search and add supporting links for the last paragraph.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.ahladam.com/devotional/vishnu-sahasra/vishnu-sahasranamam-english-translation.php/5&#xA;  [2]: http://www.shivkumar.org/music/vishnu-sahasranamam-meanings.htm&#xA;  [3]: http://www.newsgram.com/spiritual-significance-of-colours-in-hinduism-read-here/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10332" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2515" RevisionGUID="16e68609-8ae3-4258-a233-b16e8f9ae203" CreationDate="2017-04-02T12:19:45.220" UserId="3639" Text="I couldn't find much (any) info about this question. According to wikipedia:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Prometheus, in eternal punishment, is chained to a rock in the Caucasus, Kazbek Mountain or Mountain of Khvamli, where his liver is eaten daily by an eagle, only to be regenerated by night, due to his immortality. The eagle is a symbol of Zeus himself. Years later, the Greek hero Heracles (Hercules) slays the eagle and frees Prometheus from the eagle's torment.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But what happens after he was freed? Did he think of a rebellion again against the gods with the other titans?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10333" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2515" RevisionGUID="16e68609-8ae3-4258-a233-b16e8f9ae203" CreationDate="2017-04-02T12:19:45.220" UserId="3639" Text="What happened to Prometheus after Hercules freed him?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10334" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2515" RevisionGUID="16e68609-8ae3-4258-a233-b16e8f9ae203" CreationDate="2017-04-02T12:19:45.220" UserId="3639" Text="|greek|hercules|titans|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10335" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="735" RevisionGUID="009acba0-12ce-4fac-87ab-b8fe27333164" CreationDate="2017-04-02T13:01:59.413" UserId="2807" Comment="Fixed minor misspelling" Text="**There haven't been any myths which describe the relationship or stories of interaction between Fenrir and Jörmungandr.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This could be because, in *Gylfaginning*, it is told that Fenrir, Jörmungandr and Hel were just children when they were separated.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;evil was to be expected from them, to begin with because of their mother's nature, but still worse because of their father's. **Then All-Father sent the gods to get the children and bring them to him. And when they came to him, he threw the serpent into that deep sea which lies round all lands**, and this serpent grew so that it lies in the midst of the ocean encircling all lands and bites on its own tail&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sub&gt;source: Faulkes, https://notendur.hi.is/eybjorn/ugm/hymir/hym22.html&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Fenrir is then bound with the chain Gleipner until the day of Ragnarök. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With Fenrir held bound by the chain and Jörmungandr lying deep in the ocean, until the time of Ragnarök, there were no possibilities or incidences of them meeting each other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;**Note:** I'm not sure if this counts, but in some versions of the story, it is said that Fenrir and Jörmungandr enter the battle of Ragnarök together.&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10336" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="735" RevisionGUID="009acba0-12ce-4fac-87ab-b8fe27333164" CreationDate="2017-04-02T13:01:59.413" Comment="Proposed by 2807 approved by 2774, 967 edit id of 431" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10340" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2516" RevisionGUID="2efff4f8-1a6b-41f9-ba65-3744881e0783" CreationDate="2017-04-02T22:03:48.750" UserId="2892" Text="You are referring to the Aeschylus fragment &quot;[Prometheus Unbound][1]&quot;.  Unfortunately this play was mostly lost. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm trying to locate the source texts from online sources, but haven't yet located an accessible source. (The source text can be found here: [&quot;The Prometheus bound of Aeschylus and the fragments of the Prometheus unbound&quot;][2] on page 145, but it won't be especially helpful unless you have some Latin and Greek.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the Prometheus Unbound fragments on [Theoi, use this link][3] and look for &quot;PROMÊTHEUS LYOMENOS&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'll amend if I find any further information, but it looks like any parts of this text that may have told what happens to Prometheus after he is unbound in this play are lost. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there is a third play, [Prometheus the Fire Bringer][4], again, surviving only in fragments and only.  [On Theoi, use this link][3] and look for &quot;PROMÊTHEUS PYRPHOROS&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **One theory on this third play hold that Prometheus is reconciled with Zeus after revealing to Zeus [the prophecy of Thetis' child becoming greater than Zeus himself][5].** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - An alternate theory holds that this play was actually the first in the trilogy, and recounted the events concerning the theft of fire by Prometheus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*[I don't have an academic sources for these theories at the moment, and will amend if I come across them, but both theories seem sound.]*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;RELATED: [Prometheus Unbound by Percy Bysshe Shelley][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: Shelly is not part of the classical canon, but is a poet of sufficient stature to be included in the overall literary canon, so he is worth reading if you have an interest in this subject.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus_Unbound_(Aeschylus)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://archive.org/details/prometheusbound00allegoog&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/AeschylusFragments2.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus_the_Fire-Bringer&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thetis#Marriage_to_Peleus&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://archive.org/stream/prometheusunboun00sheliala/prometheusunboun00sheliala_djvu.txt" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10341" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2509" RevisionGUID="409f4798-69c2-4ae6-8130-2f2edc745e06" CreationDate="2017-04-02T22:56:15.847" UserId="2892" Comment="Added a note per fdb's comment" Text="It is correct that the Latin noun used by Seneca ([chaos][1]) can be either masculine *or* [neuter][2], but it is important to note the concept derives from the Greek, with Hesiod as the likely original textual source, and there is definitively neuter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perseus doesn't have an English translation of the Seneca, but [the Latin can be found here][3], with links to the lexicon for each word:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Resonet maesto clamore chaos&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;lateque patens unda profundi:&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Seneca, Hercules Furens, Rudolf Peiper, Gustav Richter, Ed., 1108-9&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notable that in the above passage that &quot;chaos&quot; is not capitalized in the Peiper and Richter, which may be an indication of the concept as opposed to a direct personification. (Note that there is variation in different versions of Greek and Latin source texts, which were preserved for millennia by transcription. [Ancient texts tend to have no punctuation or division between words][4].) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Aristophanes however, Chaos ([Χάους][5]) is capitalized, singular and neuter. *(Note that the specific form on the word may also be adjectival, and in that form is plural. I'm not sure this can be taken as an indication that Chaos is [multipartite][6], but it's an interesting thought!)*  The [English O'Neil text may be found on Perseus][7] with the [Greek text linked][8].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Quintus Smyrnaeus, Fall of Troy (3.755)][9], about eight centuries after Aristophanes, uses the same form (Χάους). Unfortunately, the Perseus Greek text does not seem to be linked to an English translation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Virgil reference ([Georgics 4. 345 ff][10]) uses &quot;[Chao][11]&quot;, which again may be either masculine or neuter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod, in the [Theogony (line 116)][12] uses [Χάος][13], which again, is neuter in the intended nominative form, but in the adjectival form may be either masculine or feminine. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;*I'm going to try and run down even more sources and will likely continue to amend, as it is a very interesting question!(Part of the problem is I'm having trouble locating online sources in the original language for many of the authors, such as the Callimachus Aetia Fragment 2, and would have to dig out actual books;)  **Right now, it's looking like there is a strong case for a gender-neutral personification of Chaos.***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=chaos&amp;la=la&amp;can=chaos0&amp;prior=clamore&amp;d=Perseus:text:2007.01.0003:card=1054&amp;i=1&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.memidex.com/neut+grammar&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2007.01.0003%3Acard%3D1054&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://latin.stackexchange.com/a/49&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=*xa%2Fous&amp;la=greek&amp;can=*xa%2Fous0&amp;prior=te&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0025:card=685&amp;i=1#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/multipartite&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0026%3Acard%3D685&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0025%3Acard%3D685&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0490%3Abook%3D3&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0058%3Abook%3D4%3Acard%3D333&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=Chao&amp;la=la&amp;can=chao0&amp;prior=aque&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.02.0059:book=4:card=333&amp;i=1&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D104&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=*xa%2Fos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=*xa%2Fos0&amp;prior=prw/tista&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0129:card=104&amp;i=1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10342" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2516" RevisionGUID="e9372bb1-7397-4070-90fb-926e90aee89d" CreationDate="2017-04-02T23:02:50.487" UserId="2892" Comment="Added links to the meanings of luomenos and pyrphoros" Text="You are referring to the Aeschylus fragment &quot;[Prometheus Unbound][1]&quot;.  Unfortunately this play was mostly lost. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm trying to locate the source texts from online sources, but haven't yet located an accessible source. (The source text can be found here: [&quot;The Prometheus bound of Aeschylus and the fragments of the Prometheus unbound&quot;][2] on page 145, but it won't be especially helpful unless you have some Latin and Greek.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the Prometheus Unbound fragments on [Theoi, use this link][3] and look for &quot;PROMÊTHEUS [LYOMENOS][4]&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'll amend if I find any further information, but it looks like any parts of this text that may have told what happens to Prometheus after he is unbound in this play are lost. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there is a third play, [Prometheus the Fire Bringer][5], again, surviving only in fragments and only.  [On Theoi, use this link][3] and look for &quot;PROMÊTHEUS [PYRPHOROS][6]&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **One theory on this third play hold that Prometheus is reconciled with Zeus after revealing to Zeus [the prophecy of Thetis' child becoming greater than Zeus himself][7].** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - An alternate theory holds that this play was actually the first in the trilogy, and recounted the events concerning the theft of fire by Prometheus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*[I don't have an academic sources for these theories at the moment, and will amend if I come across them, but both theories seem sound.]*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;RELATED: [Prometheus Unbound by Percy Bysshe Shelley][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: Shelly is not part of the classical canon, but is a poet of sufficient stature to be included in the overall literary canon, so he is worth reading if you have an interest in this subject.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus_Unbound_(Aeschylus)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://archive.org/details/prometheusbound00allegoog&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/AeschylusFragments2.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=luomenos&amp;la=greek#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus_the_Fire-Bringer&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=purforos&amp;la=greek#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thetis#Marriage_to_Peleus&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://archive.org/stream/prometheusunboun00sheliala/prometheusunboun00sheliala_djvu.txt" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10343" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2509" RevisionGUID="24e974d5-5eb0-4166-a59a-9031fa4795e4" CreationDate="2017-04-02T23:43:18.107" UserId="2892" Comment="Made some clarifications on Virgil (i.e. looked for a modifying adjective.)  Bolded the Hesiod portions, since that is seems to be the &quot;Ur&quot; source." Text="It is correct that the Latin noun used by Seneca ([chaos][1]), and that some related adjectives, can be either masculine *or* [neuter][2], but is likely masculine because ([clamore][3]) is masculine, thus: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;let Chaos re-echo the outcries of his grief.&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hercules Furens, trans. Frank Justus Miller][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**However, it is important to note the concept derives from the Greek, with Hesiod as the likely original textual source, and there it is definitively neuter.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perseus doesn't have an English translation of the Seneca, but [the Latin can be found here][5], with links to the lexicon for each word:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Resonet maesto clamore chaos&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;lateque patens unda profundi:&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Seneca, Hercules Furens, Rudolf Peiper, Gustav Richter, Ed., 1108-9&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notable that in the above passage that &quot;chaos&quot; is not capitalized in the Peiper and Richter, which may be an indication of the concept as opposed to a direct personification. (Note that there is variation in different versions of Greek and Latin source texts, which were preserved for millennia by transcription. [Ancient texts tend to have no punctuation or division between words][6].) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Aristophanes, Chaos ([Χάους][8]), capitalized, singular and neuter. *(Note that the specific form of the word may also be adjectival, though not in this example, and in that form is plural. I'm not sure this can be taken as an indication that Chaos is [multipartite][9], but it's an interesting thought!)*  The [English O'Neil text may be found on Perseus][10] with the [Greek text linked][11].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Quintus Smyrnaeus, Fall of Troy (3.755)][12], about eight centuries after Aristophanes, uses the same form (Χάους). Unfortunately, the Perseus Greek text does not seem to be linked to an English translation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Virgil reference ([Georgics 4. 345 ff][13]) uses &quot;[Chao][14]&quot;, here capitalized, which again may be either masculine or neuter.  (Note that the translator, J. B. Greenough, uses &quot;old Chaos&quot;, but that is poetic license, and I don't see an adjective that would confirm the gender in this example.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hesiod, in the [Theogony (line 116)][15] uses [Χάος][16], which again, is neuter in the intended nominative form, but in the adjectival form may be either masculine or feminine.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;*I'm going to try and run down even more sources and will likely continue to amend, as it is a very interesting question!(Part of the problem is I'm having trouble locating online sources in the original language for many of the authors, such as the Callimachus Aetia Fragment 2, and would have to dig out actual books;)*  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Right now, it's looking like there is a strong case for a gender fluid or neutral personification of Chaos, at least per the original Greek.  This would be consistent with the idea of Chaos being ever-changing.***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=chaos&amp;la=la&amp;can=chaos0&amp;prior=clamore&amp;d=Perseus:text:2007.01.0003:card=1054&amp;i=1&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.memidex.com/neut+grammar&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=clamore&amp;la=la&amp;can=clamore0&amp;prior=maesto&amp;d=Perseus:text:2007.01.0003:card=1054&amp;i=1&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaHerculesFurens.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2007.01.0003%3Acard%3D1054&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://latin.stackexchange.com/a/49&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2007.01.0007%3Acard%3D510&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=*xa%2Fous&amp;la=greek&amp;can=*xa%2Fous0&amp;prior=te&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0025:card=685&amp;i=1#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/multipartite&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0026%3Acard%3D685&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0025%3Acard%3D685&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0490%3Abook%3D3&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0058%3Abook%3D4%3Acard%3D333&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=Chao&amp;la=la&amp;can=chao0&amp;prior=aque&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.02.0059:book=4:card=333&amp;i=1&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D104&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=*xa%2Fos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=*xa%2Fos0&amp;prior=prw/tista&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0129:card=104&amp;i=1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10344" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2516" RevisionGUID="38310b69-c118-4bee-83c8-27e343240758" CreationDate="2017-04-03T01:10:04.877" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 25 characters in body" Text="You are referring to the Aeschylus fragment &quot;[Prometheus Unbound][1]&quot;.  Unfortunately this play was mostly lost. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(The source text can be found here: [&quot;The Prometheus bound of Aeschylus and the fragments of the Prometheus unbound&quot;][2] on page 145, but it won't be especially helpful unless you have some Latin and Greek.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the Prometheus Unbound fragments on [Theoi, use this link][3] and look for &quot;PROMÊTHEUS [LYOMENOS][4]&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'll amend if I find any further information, but it looks like any parts of this text that may have told what happens to Prometheus after he is unbound in this play are lost. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there is a third play, [Prometheus the Fire Bringer][5], again, surviving only in fragments and only.  [On Theoi, use this link][3] and look for &quot;PROMÊTHEUS [PYRPHOROS][6]&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One theory on this third play hold that Prometheus is reconciled with Zeus after revealing to Zeus the prophecy of Thetis' child becoming greater than Zeus himself, which derives from [Hyginus, Fabulae, 54][7]. *(If true, it might have contained the answer on what he does after he is unbound in the second play, however there is an alternate theory holds that this play was actually the first in the trilogy, and depicted the events concerning the theft of fire.)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;RELATED: [Prometheus Unbound by Percy Bysshe Shelley][9]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: Shelly is not part of the classical canon, but is a poet of sufficient stature to be included in the overall literary canon, so he is worth reading if you have an interest in this subject.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus_Unbound_(Aeschylus)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://archive.org/details/prometheusbound00allegoog&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/AeschylusFragments2.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=luomenos&amp;la=greek#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus_the_Fire-Bringer&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=purforos&amp;la=greek#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusFabulae2.html#54&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0010%3Acard%3D1&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://archive.org/stream/prometheusunboun00sheliala/prometheusunboun00sheliala_djvu.txt" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10345" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2516" RevisionGUID="ee2533c6-f5cf-4534-8fcc-b80f5d5df2e4" CreationDate="2017-04-03T01:17:27.317" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 25 characters in body" Text="You are referring to the Aeschylus fragment &quot;[Prometheus Unbound][1]&quot;.  Unfortunately this play was mostly lost. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(The source text can be found here: [&quot;The Prometheus bound of Aeschylus and the fragments of the Prometheus unbound&quot;][2] on page 145, but it won't be especially helpful unless you have some Latin and Greek.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the Prometheus Unbound fragments on [Theoi, use this link][3] and look for &quot;PROMÊTHEUS [LYOMENOS][4]&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'll amend if I find any further information, but it looks like any parts of this text that may have told what happens to Prometheus after he is unbound in this play are lost. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there is a third play, [Prometheus the Fire Bringer][5], again, surviving only in fragments and only.  [On Theoi, use this link][3] and look for &quot;PROMÊTHEUS [PYRPHOROS][6]&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One theory on this third play hold that Prometheus is reconciled with Zeus after revealing to Zeus the prophecy of Thetis' child becoming greater than Zeus himself, which may derive from [Hyginus, Fabulae, 54][7], and is [predicted by Prometheus himself in the Aeschylus][8]. (If true, this 3rd play might have contained the answer on what Prometheus does *after* he is unbound, but there is an alternate theory holding that this play was actually the *first* in the trilogy, and depicted the events concerning the theft of fire.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;RELATED: [Prometheus Unbound by Percy Bysshe Shelley][9]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: Shelly is not part of the classical canon, but is a poet of sufficient stature to be included in the overall literary canon, so he is worth reading if you have an interest in this subject.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus_Unbound_(Aeschylus)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://archive.org/details/prometheusbound00allegoog&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/AeschylusFragments2.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=luomenos&amp;la=greek#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus_the_Fire-Bringer&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=purforos&amp;la=greek#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusFabulae2.html#54&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0010%3Acard%3D742&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://archive.org/stream/prometheusunboun00sheliala/prometheusunboun00sheliala_djvu.txt" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10346" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2389" RevisionGUID="aa14a648-da75-4d7a-8071-d003d2d33a5d" CreationDate="2017-04-03T01:22:33.073" UserId="2892" Comment="Added a Scholiast reference confirming my view of Aesop." Text="Quite the opposite:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt; &quot;Zeus gathered all the useful things together in a jar and put a lid on it. He then left the jar in human hands. But man had no self-control and he wanted to know what was in that jar, so he pushed the lid aside, letting those things go back to the abode of the gods. So all the good things flew away, soaring high above the earth, and Elpis (Hope) was the only thing left. When the lid was put back on the jar, Elpis (Hope) was kept inside. **That is why Elpis (Hope) alone is still found among the people, promising that she will bestow on each of us the good things that have gone away.**&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Aesop, Fables 526 (from Babrius 58) (trans. Gibbs) (Greek fable C6th B.C.)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Your take may also be valid interpretation in that Aesop does make the point that Hope can now only promise good things that are gone from this world.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Redemption after death isn't really firmly entrenched until Christianity. (Pagan traditions tend to be pre-occupied with cycles of generation as opposed to Abrahamic religions which are focused on redemption.) In most pagan religions, there is only an underworld to which people go when they die, generally not nice places.  The [Elysian Fields](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elysium) are an early take on redemption after death, but entry is restricted to all but a very few, unquestionably out of reach of the average person, and even most heroes.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;...according to Aesop, but Phil said: *&quot;Because Hope was stuck in the lid of the box, it was bloody useless, and false hope was the only hope humans had, because they are all going to die and dwell in Hades forever, and all the good things false hope promises are gone from the world.&quot;*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, I believe Aesop was presenting hope as a kind of balm.  Yes, nearly all of us are going to hell, but the illusion of hope is the only thing that makes life bearable.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Indeed, Robert Graves, referencing Scholiast on Apollonius Rhodius (ii.1249) states that **&quot;Delusive Hope, however, whom Prometheus had also shut in the box, discouraged them by her lies from general suicide.&quot;** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Of asphodel, that greeny flower, like a buttercup upon its branching stem- save that it’s green and wooden- I come, my sweet, to sing to you. We lived long together a life filled, if you will, with flowers.  So that I was cheered when I came first to know that there were flowers also in hell.&quot;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;-William Carlos Williams&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10347" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2383" RevisionGUID="0bc4bef4-90ca-410d-9d40-38522b49d1bd" CreationDate="2017-04-03T01:26:19.847" UserId="2892" Comment="Trying to differentiate this question sufficiently. See my new note on Scholiast calling hope a delusion." Text="Because death was released into the world, all hope is denied, so being stuck in the box means there is not hope in the world." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10348" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2383" RevisionGUID="0bc4bef4-90ca-410d-9d40-38522b49d1bd" CreationDate="2017-04-03T01:26:19.847" UserId="2892" Comment="Trying to differentiate this question sufficiently. See my new note on Scholiast calling hope a delusion." Text="Surely hope being left in Pandora's Box means that there is no true hope in the world?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10349" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2516" RevisionGUID="ea8de782-d598-4cea-868f-ddaf4ad03a8c" CreationDate="2017-04-03T01:43:10.663" UserId="2892" Comment="Added the Athenaeus reference, so that at least there is some answer (he was ordered to wear a wreath;) " Text="You are referring to the Aeschylus fragment &quot;[Prometheus Unbound][1]&quot;.  Unfortunately this play was mostly lost. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(The source text can be found here: [&quot;The Prometheus bound of Aeschylus and the fragments of the Prometheus unbound&quot;][2] on page 145, but it won't be especially helpful unless you have some Latin and Greek.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the Prometheus Unbound fragments on [Theoi, use this link][3] and look for &quot;PROMÊTHEUS [LYOMENOS][4]&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'll amend if I find any further information, but it looks like any parts of this text that may have told what happens to Prometheus after he is unbound in this play are lost. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there is a third play, [Prometheus the Fire Bringer][5], again, surviving only in fragments and only.  [On Theoi, use this link][3] and look for &quot;PROMÊTHEUS [PYRPHOROS][6]&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One theory on this third play hold that Prometheus is reconciled with Zeus after revealing to Zeus the prophecy of Thetis' child becoming greater than Zeus himself, which may derive from [Hyginus, Fabulae, 54][7], and is [predicted by Prometheus himself in the Aeschylus][8]. (If true, this 3rd play might have contained the answer on what Prometheus does *after* he is unbound, but there is an alternate theory holding that this play was actually the *first* in the trilogy, and depicted the events concerning the theft of fire.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Graves says that &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Mankind now began to wear rings in Prometheus' honour, and also wreathes, because when released, [Prometheus was ordered to crown himself with a willow wreath.][9]&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: Robert graves, The Greek Myths, 133.m, citing Athenaeus&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;so there's that. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For more info on this punishment and Athenaeus, see &quot;[The Author of the Prometheus Bound][10]&quot; by C.J. Herington.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;RELATED: [Prometheus Unbound by Percy Bysshe Shelley][11]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: Shelly is not part of the classical canon, but is a poet of sufficient stature to be included in the overall literary canon, so he is worth reading if you have an interest in this subject.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus_Unbound_(Aeschylus)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://archive.org/details/prometheusbound00allegoog&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/AeschylusFragments2.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=luomenos&amp;la=greek#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus_the_Fire-Bringer&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=purforos&amp;la=greek#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusFabulae2.html#54&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0010%3Acard%3D742&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://books.google.com/books?id=pGkbAgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT387&amp;lpg=PT387&amp;dq=Athenaeus%20prometheus&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=x7Da5pm4dO&amp;sig=KAmZZmm1fpWn-4D2LLtFBjnMLW4&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjZ1eDkkofTAhWI8YMKHcuhA1gQ6AEIHTAB#v=onepage&amp;q=Athenaeus%20prometheus&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://books.google.com/books?id=_IQODQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA125&amp;lpg=PA125&amp;dq=Athenaeus%20prometheus&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=rHMxwimU2X&amp;sig=bUrfdfuV4-Tbi_a6CukRkhJuD3k&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjZ1eDkkofTAhWI8YMKHcuhA1gQ6AEIGjAA#v=onepage&amp;q=Athenaeus%20prometheus&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://archive.org/stream/prometheusunboun00sheliala/prometheusunboun00sheliala_djvu.txt" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10351" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2517" RevisionGUID="9c659541-4183-4c93-ac4e-7f150a418615" CreationDate="2017-04-04T09:18:45.837" UserId="3647" Text="I have heard so many times that **Maruti** is the other name of Lord Hanuman. Also heard that Maruti Nandan (The son of Maruti)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Hey dukh bhanjan Maruti nandan Sunlo meri pukar..*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which one is correct? Or Lord Hanuman is named as though his mother is Maruti?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10352" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2517" RevisionGUID="9c659541-4183-4c93-ac4e-7f150a418615" CreationDate="2017-04-04T09:18:45.837" UserId="3647" Text="Maruti, is this the name of Lord Hanuman or his mother Or both?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10353" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2517" RevisionGUID="9c659541-4183-4c93-ac4e-7f150a418615" CreationDate="2017-04-04T09:18:45.837" UserId="3647" Text="|hindu|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10354" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2518" RevisionGUID="268c2ca2-59ea-4231-8b1c-41740beb86f9" CreationDate="2017-04-04T10:05:59.030" UserId="3645" Text="In the wikipedia link for post-vedic texts section, it states: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In post-Vedic texts, Indra is depicted as an intoxicated hedonistic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; god, his importance declines, and he evolves into a minor deity in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; comparison to others in the Hindu pantheon, such as Shiva, Vishnu, or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Devi.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While I agree with the second part of Indra seeming like a minor deity in comparison to others, his exact depiction is still varied in different accounts/literature and not always as an &quot;intoxicated hedonistic god&quot;. The reason he is referred repeatedly in Rigveda is likely because he is referred to as the [king of heaven][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Of the Vedas I am the Sāma Veda; of the demigods I am Indra, the king&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of heaven; of the senses I am the mind; and in living beings I am the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; living force [consciousness]. (Bhagavad Gita 10.22)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With the heavenly realm being the residence of all the demigods, Indra is also understood to be the king of demigods. The Vedas have many sections that encourage worshiping various demigods, and the king of all demigods thus understandably gets a large chunk of the attention. His status, however, is still subordinate to the holy trinity of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, as well as Durga (or Devi).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(This answer is based largely on simple logic than a lot of references. If those are needed, though, please leave a comment.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.vedabase.com/en/bg/10/22" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10355" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2519" RevisionGUID="d20448aa-fe66-41bc-b4ae-1ea7903fc873" CreationDate="2017-04-05T03:09:45.057" UserId="3645" Text="This should explain ([source][1]):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Maruti is a highly popular name used to address Hanuman. The literal&#xD;&#xA;&gt; meaning of the word 'Maruti' is the one who is born from 'Marut',&#xD;&#xA;&gt; meaning air. The other names that suggest Hanuman is the son of Air&#xD;&#xA;&gt; god include Maruti Nandan (Air god's son), Marutadmaja (the one born&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from Air), Vayu Putra (Air god's son), and others. There is an&#xD;&#xA;&gt; interesting story how Vayu or the Air god became Hanuman's father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Essentially, Marut refers to air, and Maruti can refer to Vayu (god of air) or Hanuman (born from/of air or Vayu). In the name of Maruti-Nandan, Maruti refers to Vayu.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.speakingtree.in/blog/why-hanuman-is-called-maruti" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10356" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2412" RevisionGUID="aeb9b966-43bc-4490-95bd-fed000d934f2" CreationDate="2017-04-05T16:12:06.623" UserId="2892" Comment="corrected the lolcat &quot;teh&quot; " Text="[Wikipedia states that](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indra#Vedic_texts) &quot;over a quarter of the 1,208 hymns of the Rigveda mention Indra, making him the most referred to deity than any other.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But in the [post-vedic texts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indra#Post-vedic_texts) his importance is greatly diminished.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What are the reasons for his loss of status?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10357" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2520" RevisionGUID="045f361c-2c83-4292-951e-7d592523264c" CreationDate="2017-04-05T17:57:25.407" UserId="2892" Text="I just finished a very interesting article [&quot;Boand&quot; river-goddess and rebel&quot;][1] that talks about the bovine origin of her name, and makes a good case for cows as a symbol of wisdom in Irish lore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The article also references the Vedas, and my first thought, per the author's revelation of the etymology of Boand as &quot;bó&quot; (cow) +&quot;vinda&quot; (bright or wise), was of [Govinda][2].   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm looking for other mythological references that link cows to wisdom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://earthandstarryheaven.com/2017/03/29/boand/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Govinda" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10358" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2520" RevisionGUID="045f361c-2c83-4292-951e-7d592523264c" CreationDate="2017-04-05T17:57:25.407" UserId="2892" Text="Cows as symbols of Wisdom" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10359" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2520" RevisionGUID="045f361c-2c83-4292-951e-7d592523264c" CreationDate="2017-04-05T17:57:25.407" UserId="2892" Text="|comparative|irish|vedic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10361" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2521" RevisionGUID="e2bd8b7b-de39-4057-85d4-25c3122586ef" CreationDate="2017-04-07T00:21:28.787" UserId="3655" Text="1. Attachment spirits. In Native American and Eastern European shamanism, they attach to people either to vicariously live through them, or to whip up the emotions so they can feed off them. This happens in relationships where the argument whips into a frenzy seemingly on its own. (Aside from hormones.) I don't have a citation, I was married to a native shaman who talked about it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. Incubi and succubi are generally represented as being sexual pest spirits that feed off the victim's sexuality, but in the Wikipedia entry for each one, the end result is death. The experience for the victim is pleasure, until they are drained of life force. Sexual pleasure is not quite the same as &quot;emotions&quot;, but definitely involves emotion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. In Christianity, demons. &quot;Demons survive by feeding off of emotional vibrations such as anger, fear, joy, excitement and any emotion that vibrates at the frequency needed for the feeding entities. The greater the emotional vibration, the better the feeding session for those feeding. A book by John Klein and Adam Spears titled Devils and Demons and the Return of the Nephilim published in 2005 is a great source for understanding how and why entitles feed off of human energy.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread531240/pg2&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know this is part of older esoteric traditions. Qabbala? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know at least one Christian who strongly believes in this as a reality:&#xD;&#xA;http://gnosticwarrior.com/demons-who-feed-on-human-energy.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. In new age speak, there are Collective Consciousness group-entities that gin up and feed off of any strong &quot;team&quot; related identity -- sports, religion, politics. When you are trying to talk to someone who just won't hear an opposing view, and it almost seems like something is talking through them, and they seem to get a great deal of energy from their group identity, like being a sock puppet for something more powerful. In psychology terms, I'm sure there are specific diagnoses, but still. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10362" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2522" RevisionGUID="eb12b9a0-9631-4433-a9fd-62e1bbdc583d" CreationDate="2017-04-07T09:33:24.623" UserId="3657" Text="Well the only ones i know of that you could count are for Greek  &#xD;&#xA;Aether the primordial god of the upper air, light, the atmosphere, space and heaven &#xD;&#xA;Atlas who was the primordial titan of astronomy condemned by Zeus to carry the world on his back after the Titans lost the war &#xD;&#xA;Astraios/Astraeus was the Titan astrological god as he was god of the dusk the stars and planets and of the art of astrology some also associate him with the winds" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10364" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2523" RevisionGUID="c202f787-a0ef-49e7-a6c4-a01ec2c4e1ce" CreationDate="2017-04-08T00:15:57.957" UserId="2892" Text="I am speaking, of course, of the ill-fortuned Megara. *(Literal answer is fine, although I'd welcome commentary and analysis.  Ideally, links will come from Academic sources where possible.)*" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10365" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2523" RevisionGUID="c202f787-a0ef-49e7-a6c4-a01ec2c4e1ce" CreationDate="2017-04-08T00:15:57.957" UserId="2892" Text="Why did Hercules murder his first wife?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10366" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2523" RevisionGUID="c202f787-a0ef-49e7-a6c4-a01ec2c4e1ce" CreationDate="2017-04-08T00:15:57.957" UserId="2892" Text="|greek|roman|hercules|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10367" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2524" RevisionGUID="fc5d8259-8eca-450d-b2c9-8daea5b2308f" CreationDate="2017-04-08T00:41:15.633" UserId="292" Text="Hera struck him with madness, and he killed his wife Megara and children. In some myths, his need to atone for this led to him performing 12 Labours of Hercules. Two plays, by Euripides and Seneca, have a [different storyline][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the works of Euripides and Seneca, a usurper named Lycus has taken&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the throne of Thebes in Hercules' absence, killed King Creon, and is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; now forcing marriage on Megara. The tension of the plays comes from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the characters hoping Hercules will arrive in time to save them from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lycus and his schemes. When Hercules finally comes home, he defeats&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and kills Lycus and then gives thanks to the gods for his timely&#xD;&#xA;&gt; arrival and the safety of his family. As he is praying, however, he is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; struck by Hera with a madness in which he believes his sons are those&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Lycus and that Megara is his adversary Hera, and he kills them all.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The plays both end with Hercules in suicidal remorse at his deeds and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his cousin Theseus helping him deal with his grief.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [pre-Euripides storyline][2] has Hercules and Megara living happily in Thebes, when Hera causes Hercules to go mad and attack his family. [Hera's vindictiveness][3] towards Hercules went back to his birth, as he was one of Zeus' many children by other women, and she persecuted him throughout his life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.ancient.eu/Megara_(Wife_of_Hercules)/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Herakles/labors.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://classicalwisdom.com/heracles-and-hera/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10372" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2526" RevisionGUID="a34bcba4-c9eb-4cc6-a226-9e7abf2d2401" CreationDate="2017-04-08T06:38:31.323" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="There are deities like [Euronyme](https://www.paleothea.com/Myths/Eurynome.html) and I was wondering if there were any other deities whose roles had been greatly dimnished by the Greek pantheon after being assimilated into it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10373" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2526" RevisionGUID="a34bcba4-c9eb-4cc6-a226-9e7abf2d2401" CreationDate="2017-04-08T06:38:31.323" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Are there any deities whose roles had been greatly dimnished by the Greek pantheon?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10374" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2526" RevisionGUID="a34bcba4-c9eb-4cc6-a226-9e7abf2d2401" CreationDate="2017-04-08T06:38:31.323" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10375" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2527" RevisionGUID="b98273ba-6c70-4493-9736-ae54cc5ee0ea" CreationDate="2017-04-08T06:44:38.957" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Zeus often takes many forms to trick his wives and other damsels and some of the more prominent forms that he had taken are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-the eagle(for Ganydeme)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-the swan(for Leda)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-the bull(for Eurynome)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-the shower of gold(for Danaë)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any significance to these forms? Why was Zeus potrayed in those paryicular ways. By the way I am mostly looking for explanatiobs the above mentioned forms but explanations for other forms will also be appreciated." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10376" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2527" RevisionGUID="b98273ba-6c70-4493-9736-ae54cc5ee0ea" CreationDate="2017-04-08T06:44:38.957" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Is there any significance to the forms Zeus took?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10377" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2527" RevisionGUID="b98273ba-6c70-4493-9736-ae54cc5ee0ea" CreationDate="2017-04-08T06:44:38.957" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="|greek|zeus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10378" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2528" RevisionGUID="c08fdfe2-bdc1-4eaa-9233-e80c86442f5b" CreationDate="2017-04-08T06:51:33.373" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Many heroes and gods have many consorts but are still popular and worshipped and good examples of these are Zeus of Greek Mythology and Arjuna of Hindu Mythology. Are there any females similar to them? I am only aware of the heroine Draupadi but I am mostly looking for goddesses as compared to humans(although human examples will also be appreciated), but I am not looking for goddesses like Aphrodite and Ishtar, whom just take and discard lovers as they are extremely lustful. Note that I am not just looking for any females but ones that are celebrated." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10379" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2528" RevisionGUID="c08fdfe2-bdc1-4eaa-9233-e80c86442f5b" CreationDate="2017-04-08T06:51:33.373" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Are there any females who have many consorts but are still celebrated?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10380" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2528" RevisionGUID="c08fdfe2-bdc1-4eaa-9233-e80c86442f5b" CreationDate="2017-04-08T06:51:33.373" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10381" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2529" RevisionGUID="41c6ec9c-28b8-421a-9026-a06b3743f48f" CreationDate="2017-04-08T15:21:02.413" UserId="292" Text="The two examples that I can think of a goddess who has multiple partners are the Norse goddess Freyja and the Irish goddess/heroine Medb. Since we know of them mainly from Christian writers, the view we inherit of them is an ambivalent one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Freyja is probably the more respected of the two; [Snorri Sturluson][1] says in the *Prose Edda* that she is the most glorious of the goddesses, and shares the honours with Odin's wife Frigg as highest-ranked goddess. She is also the only goddess who has her own story in the *Poetic Edda*, the poem *[Hyndluljod][2]*, which tells how she went to the giantess Hyndla to get help for one of her followers. There are hints that others had a different view. Hyndla insults her for being promiscuous, and a man in Iceland was had up for blasphemy when he called Freyja a bitch.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Medb, as she is portrayed in the *[Cattle Raid of Cooley][3]*, is a formidable but unattractive character, who never &quot;had one man but in the shadow of another&quot; and behaves with the same greed and arrogance as the male characters. However, [her name][4] suggests that she is a form of the [Irish sovereignty goddess][5], which would explain her many partners, and her willingness to fight for what is hers. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.wyrdwords.vispa.com/goddesses/freyja/prose.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda/Hyndlulj%C3%B3%C3%B0&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.britannica.com/topic/The-Cattle-Raid-of-Cooley&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medb#Interpretations&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89riu" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10384" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2530" RevisionGUID="7272cf8b-bc14-4c71-943d-5e0380f3cc10" CreationDate="2017-04-08T23:07:18.507" UserId="292" Text="First off, this page you linked to cites Robert Graves as her main source, and Graves' Greek Mythology is not exactly a reliable text. (He believed that a goddess religion had been pushed out by a male-dominated pantheon, and was not above inventing evidence to prove his point. He called it &quot;[poetic truth][1]&quot;.) You will notice that even the page's author admits that Graves is a dodgy source.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For more reliable evidence about who Eurynome was, check out [Theoi.com][2] or [Greek Mythology][3]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But there wasn't a civilization that came before the Greeks who worshipped the Titans and were overthrown the way Zeus and Co. overcame Cronos and his family. The whole point of the war in heaven myth is to boost Zeus as king of heaven, by showing how he beat the old gods, and therefore was better than them. It doesn't mean there was any historical battle between Cronos worshippers and Zeus worshippers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.tor.com/2013/10/08/book-review-robert-graves-the-white-goddess-a-historical-grammar-of-poetic-myth/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanisEurynome2.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.greekmythology.com/Titans/Eurynome/eurynome.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10385" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2530" RevisionGUID="33bd994b-d4a1-4f68-8643-4cf99963d92c" CreationDate="2017-04-08T23:26:35.777" UserId="292" Comment="added 689 characters in body" Text="First off, this page you linked to cites Robert Graves as her main source, and Graves' *Greek Mythology* is not exactly a reliable text. (He believed that a goddess religion had been pushed out by a male-dominated pantheon, and was not above inventing evidence to prove his point. He called it &quot;[poetic truth][1]&quot;.) You will notice that even the page's author admits that Graves is a dodgy source.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For more reliable evidence about who Eurynome was, check out [Theoi.com][2] or [Greek Mythology][3]. I suspect Graves based his ideas on the Euryome who was the daughter of Okeanos, the primeval Ocean, and was cast out of heaven with her husband, Ophion, by Kronos and Rhea. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a different story-line than the standard one from Hesiod's *[Theogony][4]*, which goes straight from the first ruler Ouranos through Kronos to Zeus. Since Euryome's husband in this version is Ophion, it probably comes from [the Orphics][5], a [mystery cult][6] that was supposedly founded by the legendary muscian Orpheus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That seems to be as close as she gets to any creation myth. She did have a [cult centre][2] in Arcadia, where a wooden image of her (in mermaid form) was kept, and sacrifices offered once a year. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Several different figures also share the name, one of whom nursed Hephestios when Hera cast him out of heaven, and another who married Zeus and was the mother of the Charities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.tor.com/2013/10/08/book-review-robert-graves-the-white-goddess-a-historical-grammar-of-poetic-myth/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanisEurynome2.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.greekmythology.com/Titans/Eurynome/eurynome.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theogony&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Orphic-religion&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.giffordlectures.org/books/religious-teachers-greece/lecture-5-orphic-religious-ideas" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10386" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2531" RevisionGUID="a4260da8-5088-4731-9400-df645906547e" CreationDate="2017-04-09T00:04:41.093" UserId="3660" Text="I swear I heard about this a long time ago but I can't remember it for the life of me (to the point that I am beginning to doubt if it exists). I faintly remember some type of monster that was able to mimic or outright steal the abilities of other people... Can anyone help me out here?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10387" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2531" RevisionGUID="a4260da8-5088-4731-9400-df645906547e" CreationDate="2017-04-09T00:04:41.093" UserId="3660" Text="A mythical/legendary/demonic creature that steals talents or abilities" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10388" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2531" RevisionGUID="a4260da8-5088-4731-9400-df645906547e" CreationDate="2017-04-09T00:04:41.093" UserId="3660" Text="|myth-identification|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10389" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2526" RevisionGUID="b53295ed-3cec-451d-aa04-f50dc7f58990" CreationDate="2017-04-09T06:38:42.550" UserDisplayName="user1385" Comment="deleted 84 characters in body" Text=" I was wondering if there were any other deities whose roles had been greatly dimnished by the Greek pantheon after being assimilated into it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10390" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2532" RevisionGUID="80d68946-2669-4f09-a767-f3965be5b345" CreationDate="2017-04-09T07:56:05.447" UserId="3662" Text="It's a common claim that modern fantasy elves and dwarves are based on those found in Norse mythology, but there doesn't actually seem to be a lot of detail given about them that I have found, particularly elves.&#xA;&#xA;I know the stories of dwarves making things (Thor's hammer etc. and the mead of poetry) which gives a fairly good root for their skill as craftsmen (and possibly also a bit about their personalities).&#xA;&#xA;Are there any other surviving Norse stories that talk about elves or dwarves in more detail?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10391" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2532" RevisionGUID="80d68946-2669-4f09-a767-f3965be5b345" CreationDate="2017-04-09T07:56:05.447" UserId="3662" Text="Elves and Dwarves in Norse Mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10392" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2532" RevisionGUID="80d68946-2669-4f09-a767-f3965be5b345" CreationDate="2017-04-09T07:56:05.447" UserId="3662" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10393" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2533" RevisionGUID="255e1522-fcb8-455e-9e0c-f3b237a126e4" CreationDate="2017-04-09T18:03:06.833" UserId="292" Text="Unlike the dwarves, who are actively involved in Norse myth (making artifacts, killing Kvasir and turning his blood into the first mead, etc.) the alfs are on the sidelines for the most part. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They seem to be have been a noble or possible divine group, as they are often mentioned in poetry alongside the Aesir, or gods. (The cosmic poem [Voluspa][1] mentions them together, as in &quot;How fare the Aesir, how fare the elves&quot; as if they were somehow equivalent.) In [Skirnirsmal][2], too, Gerdr asks Skirnir if he is an alf, or from the Aesir or Vanir (the two groups of gods).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Snorri talks about][3] dark alfs and light alfs, but it's not clear if that was his own idea or part of Norse belief generally. They seem to have been a lot like Celtic fairies, who were morally ambivalent. This may have bothered Snorri, a Christian.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the *Prose Edda*, the god Freyr is ruler of the alfs, and was given Alfheim (the elves' home) as a tooth-gift, a Norse tradition. (Sort of like the tooth fairy in reverse, as you gave a gift for a baby's first tooth.) The poem [Alvissmal][4] gives various species' names for things, including some poetic ones from the alfs:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 12. &quot; 'Heaven' men call it, | 'The Height' the gods,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Wanes 'The Weaver of Winds';  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Giants 'The Up-World,' | elves 'The Fair-Roof,'  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The dwarfs 'The Dripping Hall.'&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you want to know more about elves in Norse myth and folklore, here are some references. The Alaric Hall one is actually his thesis, with only one chapter on Norse elves, so you can skip the rest. The other is a paper. They include a lot of folklore and saga material about the elves, which you might find interesting.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gunnell: “How Elvish were the Álfar?” in Constructing Nations, Reconstructing Myth: Essays in Honour of T. A. Shippey, Brepols Publishers: 111-30. ([pdf here][5])  &#xD;&#xA;Hall, Alaric (2007). Elves in Anglo-Saxon England: Matters of Belief, Health, Gender and Identity. Anglo-Saxon Studies 8. Woodbridge, Suffolk / Rochester, New York: Boydell Press, 2007. ([pdf here][6])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe03.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe07.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%B6kk%C3%A1lfar_and_Lj%C3%B3s%C3%A1lfar&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe12.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.academia.edu/16232734/How_Elvish_Were_the_%C3%81lfar_2_&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://theses.gla.ac.uk/4924/1/2004Hallphd.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10394" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2534" RevisionGUID="528096d3-29a6-49b5-b6b6-a07790a8bfa4" CreationDate="2017-04-09T19:49:15.477" UserId="666" Text="First, we really must note that both the &quot;black elves&quot; (Svartálfar) and dwarves were said by Snorri to live in Svartálfaheimr, and that they are commonly taken to be identical; for example, when Snorri tells of the smiths that made Sif's hair, Odin's spear and Frey's magical ship, the *[Sons of Ivaldi][1]*, he calls them black elves, not dwarves (more on this story below).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The elves that are contrasted with the light elves in *Gylfaginning* are the &quot;Dökkálfar&quot;, &quot;dark elves&quot;. It's unclear if these are the same as the Svartálfar or not, but given that they are said to live underground, it seems likely to include them in the same group.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dwarves, regardless of name, appears in quite a few of the norse myths; unlike the (light) elves, who we only know about as a collective, we know of several individual dwarves, and even have *Dvergatal* a list of Dwarf names in [Völuspá][2] (which Tolkien used as a source for his names). It would be too long an answer to name every story in which they appear, so I will give a few examples, and their place in those stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. The thing that mostly have survived into modern literature is the Dwarves capability as craftsmen. When Snorri continues the story of the crafting of gifts for the gods, he tells of how Brokk and his borther, who are explicitly called dwarves, crafts Thor's hammer, Odin's self-replicating ring and Frey's golden boar. This is told in [Skáldskaparmál][3] in Snorri's *Edda*.&#xD;&#xA; 2. Dwarves are also cosmological figures: the dwarves Norðri, Suðri, Austri and Vestri each sits in a corner of the world sits and together they hold up the sky.  This is also in Snorri's *Edda*.&#xD;&#xA; 3. Dwarves also appears in the stories playing roles that we would otherwise perhaps more associate with the jotuns: *[Alvíssmál][4]* tells of how the dwarf Alviss came to seek the hand of Thor's daughter, Thor says he can have her if Alviss can answer all of Thor's question. Alviss proceeds to do so, but then day breaks and he is turned to stone by the sun. &#xD;&#xA; 4. Similar to this, there is a short story in *[Ynglinga saga][5]* in *Heimskringla* of how King Sveigðir was fooled by a dwarf to enter a rock and was never seen again.&#xD;&#xA; 5. Dwarves also are important to the backstory of the [Völsung cycle][6]: Hreiðmarr, the man that Odin, Loki and Hœnir has to ransom themselves free from after killing his son Ótr, and the Andvari, whom they take the gold to pay for the ransom from, are dwarves. Hreiðmarr also had two more sons important to the story: Fafnir, who is cursed by the stolen gold and turned into a dragon, and Regin, who fosters Sigurd who eventually kills Fafnir.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sons_of_Ivaldi&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lusp%C3%A1&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sk%C3%A1ldskaparm%C3%A1l&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alv%C3%ADssm%C3%A1l&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ynglinga_saga&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lsung_Cycle" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10395" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2533" RevisionGUID="64ff2d56-8466-4047-b2ff-47a6f065fed5" CreationDate="2017-04-09T22:35:08.823" UserId="292" Comment="added 6 characters in body" Text="Unlike the dwarves, who are actively involved in Norse myth (making artifacts, killing Kvasir and turning his blood into the first mead, etc.) the alfs are on the sidelines for the most part. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They seem to be have been a noble or possible divine group, as they are often mentioned in poetry alongside the Aesir, or gods. (The cosmic poem [*Voluspa*][1] mentions them together, as in &quot;How fare the Aesir, how fare the elves&quot; as if they were somehow equivalent.) In [*Skirnirsmal*][2], too, Gerdr asks Skirnir if he is an alf, or from the Aesir or Vanir (the two groups of gods).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Snorri talks about][3] dark alfs and light alfs, but it's not clear if that was his own idea or part of Norse belief generally. They seem to have been a lot like Celtic fairies, who were morally ambivalent. This may have bothered Snorri, a Christian.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the *Prose Edda*, the god Freyr is ruler of the alfs, and was given Alfheim (the elves' home) as a tooth-gift, a Norse tradition. (Sort of like the tooth fairy in reverse, as you gave a gift for a baby's first tooth.) The poem [*Alvissmal*][4] gives various species' names for things, including some poetic ones from the alfs:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 12. &quot; 'Heaven' men call it, | 'The Height' the gods,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Wanes 'The Weaver of Winds';  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Giants 'The Up-World,' | elves 'The Fair-Roof,'  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The dwarfs 'The Dripping Hall.'&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you want to know more about elves in Norse myth and folklore, here are some references. The Alaric Hall one is actually his thesis, with only one chapter on Norse elves, so you can skip the rest. The other is a paper. They include a lot of folklore and saga material about the elves, which you might find interesting.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gunnell: “How Elvish were the Álfar?” in Constructing Nations, Reconstructing Myth: Essays in Honour of T. A. Shippey, Brepols Publishers: 111-30. ([pdf here][5])  &#xD;&#xA;Hall, Alaric (2007). Elves in Anglo-Saxon England: Matters of Belief, Health, Gender and Identity. Anglo-Saxon Studies 8. Woodbridge, Suffolk / Rochester, New York: Boydell Press, 2007. ([pdf here][6])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe03.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe07.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%B6kk%C3%A1lfar_and_Lj%C3%B3s%C3%A1lfar&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe12.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.academia.edu/16232734/How_Elvish_Were_the_%C3%81lfar_2_&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://theses.gla.ac.uk/4924/1/2004Hallphd.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10400" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2535" RevisionGUID="7f5e6170-03cf-460d-b0a4-caebac223196" CreationDate="2017-04-10T17:51:00.233" UserId="2892" Text="[Artemis][1] famously had consorts (although, at least by the time of the Greeks, these relationships were understood to be chaste.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Consorts of Artemis:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Actaeon: *&quot;[According to] Lamar Ronald Lacey's The Myth of Aktaion: Literary and Iconographic Studies, the most likely original version of the myth is that Actaeon was the hunting companion of the goddess.&quot;*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Hippolytus: A devotee of Artemis who vowed to pursue a chaste life as a hunter and was undone by Aphrodite in revenge.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Orion: A favorite companion of Artemis, who was also undone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Callisto: The most famous of Artemis female companions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Artemis was definitely celebrated, and cannot be claimed to be lustful. &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemis#Artemis_in_mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10401" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2536" RevisionGUID="d84e2249-0264-45a0-8d00-13cecafe541f" CreationDate="2017-04-10T18:04:58.177" UserId="2892" Text="This answer will be evolving as I add to the list, but first I'll start with the most striking example:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **[The Erinyes][1]**: The [Orestia of Aeschylus][2] is a recounting of the pacification of the Erinyes in service of the advancement of civilization.  Nevertheless, their transformation to the Eumenides is demotion both in terms of status and power, in that their ancient domain and prerogatives are stripped from them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erinyes&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oresteia" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10402" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2536" RevisionGUID="6dfad064-7d1d-4e80-98e5-f457970191b2" CreationDate="2017-04-10T19:05:43.463" UserId="2892" Comment="Added Artemis" Text="This answer will be evolving as I add to the list, but first I'll start with the most striking example:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **[The Erinyes][1]**: The [Orestia of Aeschylus][2] is a recounting of the pacification of the Erinyes in service of the advancement of civilization.  Nevertheless, their transformation to the Eumenides is demotion both in terms of status and power, in that their ancient domain and prerogatives are stripped from them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **Artemis**: A primal form of Artemis, [the Lady of Ephesus][4], was a mother goddess believed to be related to [Cybele][5]. Under the Olympian hegemony, Artemis may be said to have transformed from a &quot;Great Goddess&quot; with unrestrained power to the virgin daughter of the king of the gods.  (This may be a reflection of the curtailing of the power of [Gaia][6] by casting down her offspring in the [Titanomachy][7] and [Gigantomachy][8], and extends to all Olympian goddesses, with some small exception for Aphrodite in still having power over Zeus per his licentiousness.)   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erinyes&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oresteia&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemis#Artemis_as_the_Lady_of_Ephesus&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybele&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanomachy&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giants_(Greek_mythology)#The_Gigantomachy" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10403" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2527" RevisionGUID="c29baaca-d6b1-434a-a84a-a4e52fa8078a" CreationDate="2017-04-11T05:55:51.287" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|zeus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10404" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2537" RevisionGUID="855e62c2-ba75-4708-b880-a82e46619483" CreationDate="2017-04-11T08:31:09.453" UserId="3665" Text="I'm trying to find sources to explain the &quot;according to ancient myth&quot; statement that opens almost every website on the island of Thassos that it is the Island of the Sirens. I guess it could just be a tourist board dream but it does seem well established. I can't find a link, but the Thessalonike legend may give at least a geographical connection? Any thoughts?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10405" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2537" RevisionGUID="855e62c2-ba75-4708-b880-a82e46619483" CreationDate="2017-04-11T08:31:09.453" UserId="3665" Text="Sirens of Thassos ... looking for sources" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10406" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2537" RevisionGUID="855e62c2-ba75-4708-b880-a82e46619483" CreationDate="2017-04-11T08:31:09.453" UserId="3665" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10409" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2538" RevisionGUID="f687443b-67a5-48ef-b936-e6d9315d3c7e" CreationDate="2017-04-11T16:39:52.707" UserId="2892" Text=" - [The Mead of Poetry][1] is a prime example.  The power is transferred not once, but twice:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Kvasir was a man considered most wise, who is murdered by a pair of dwarves][2].  The motivation of the dwarves is to create a magic potion that would confer this wisdom to any who drank it.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Odin, likely not content to allow such a power to be freely accessed, uses trickery to steal the mead][3], and is mostly successful.  (The part that spilled confered a lower form of capability in simple rhyming, while Odin himself keeps the greatest form of the gift to bestow at his discretion.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Mimir][4] is another such example:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[When Mimir's severed head is sent to Asgard, Odin uses magic to re-animate it, and afterwards benefits from Mimir's knowledge and secrets.][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mead_of_poetry&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mead_of_poetry#Creation_of_the_mead_of_poetry_and_murder_of_Kvasir&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mead_of_poetry#Theft_by_Odin&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%ADmir&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%ADmir#Heimskringla" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10410" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2539" RevisionGUID="ac531d12-ef10-4884-b714-5768707b5a6e" CreationDate="2017-04-11T17:13:57.283" UserId="2892" Text="[There was a question on Odin's patronage of Sigi, despite Sigi committing a murder and becoming an outlaw.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the ideas I used was the idea that Odin is the patron of outcasts, which is consistent with heroic mores in relation to the Sagas and Odin's patronage of the outsider Loki.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there anything directly in the canon that comments on and supports this idea?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2208/why-does-odin-favour-sigi-at-the-beginning-of-the-saga-of-the-v%C3%B6lsungs" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10411" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2539" RevisionGUID="ac531d12-ef10-4884-b714-5768707b5a6e" CreationDate="2017-04-11T17:13:57.283" UserId="2892" Text="Why is Odin the patron of outcasts?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10412" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2539" RevisionGUID="ac531d12-ef10-4884-b714-5768707b5a6e" CreationDate="2017-04-11T17:13:57.283" UserId="2892" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10416" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2537" RevisionGUID="c43cd0b8-8fee-4da2-beee-5654e1053118" CreationDate="2017-04-11T23:19:32.200" UserId="3665" Comment="Just a little more information" Text="I'm trying to find sources to explain the &quot;according to ancient myth&quot; statement that opens almost every website on the island of Thassos that it is the Island of the Sirens. I guess it could just be a tourist board dream but it does seem well established. I can't find a link, but the Thessalonike legend may give at least a geographical connection? Any thoughts?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hi; sorry I'll try to be a bit more specific... If for example you type 'Thassos and sirens' into Google several pages of general touristic sites will state (Greeka.com for instance, the second site listed) 'According to an ancient myth, Thassos is the island of sirens'.. this obviously gets copied and repeated , it's the nature of the internet, I understand. I'm just looking for any justification for the claim, however thin. I am aware of the sculpture of Thessalonike and the Kazantzakis inscription on Thassos but not altogether sure why it's there apart from this seemingly accepted 'island of the Sirens' claim and general geography (general geography compared with the west coast of Italy that is, and any other Homeric location). The Thessalonike thing is just a distraction unless she is connected in some way to Thassos and that in turn gave the island some Sirenic credibility, at least to the tourist board." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10417" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2537" RevisionGUID="b4574f5c-6550-475f-8f47-46be5fdea0fc" CreationDate="2017-04-12T01:04:08.217" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|source-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10418" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2541" RevisionGUID="2342fdd9-c0c3-4077-b158-24639f16a703" CreationDate="2017-04-12T22:42:44.607" UserId="292" Text="Paion or Paean, a healing god who appears in Linear B god lists from Knossos and was later mentioned by Homer and Hesiod as a healing deity. (One Knossos list mentions him alongside the Lady Athena, a form of Ares (Enyalios) and Posedion. So he was important enough to be listed with three future Olympians. As Fritz Graf puts it: &quot;in Homer Paeon seems an independent mythological person, whereas in later Greek, Paean was epithet of Apollo the Healer to whom the paean was sung and danced.&quot; (Apollo: 110) " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10422" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="170" RevisionGUID="5deeeaaa-37ce-464b-8e9f-e6b510f53393" CreationDate="2017-04-13T12:38:46.340" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://english.stackexchange.com/ with https://english.stackexchange.com/" Text="To address the claim that Cain moved away and then found his wife, this simply isn't stated in the text.  Perhaps the confusion is on the phrasing.  Genesis 4:16-17 doesn't say that Cain *met* his wife in the land of Nod.  Here is the King James Version of those verses:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.  And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The phrase &quot;knew his wife&quot; is a construction used repeatedly in the King James translation.  &quot;knew&quot; here doesn't mean &quot;met&quot;, it means &quot;had sex with&quot;.  Later translations usually make this a bit more clear to the modern ear, using phrases like &quot;made love to&quot;, instead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As I understand it (and I'm not a scholar of Hebrew), לדעת has many meanings, including both having knowledge of, and having sexual congress with (possibly euphemistically). To me, the intended meaning seems clear here (not all people I meet conceive and bear my children, after all). And to the best of my knowledge there isn't any real debate of the correct interpretation of this passage. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More discussion of this usage can be found on English Language &amp; Usage:  [Why did Old Testament scholars choose to employ “to know” in a sexual sense?](https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/20107/why-did-old-testament-scholars-choose-to-employ-to-know-in-a-sexual-sense)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is nothing that precludes Cain having already been married to one of his sisters at the time that he left for Nod, and that he brought her with him." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10424" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1044" RevisionGUID="ae518b1d-2dd5-47c6-a985-f825d1a624d9" CreationDate="2017-04-13T12:43:39.103" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://scifi.stackexchange.com/ with https://scifi.stackexchange.com/" Text="***By mistake I actually answered the questions why and how instead of when prior to answering when.***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**In a nutshell**: If you are interested on the subject, read bellow. Otherwise, the accepted answer was pretty much the last edit of my post. While it's still probable that Bram Stoker did not think of the &quot;no reflection&quot; feature, it's considered his invention.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Vampires:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Vampires are ancient Balkan mythological being. The word actually depicts pretty much any form of non ethereal undead (contrary to the popular belief of capes, fangs and etc). As such their soul usually passed on to the next world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was believed that the mirror holds and reflects a part of your soul.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like VixenPopuli said it can't reflect what you don't own.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This also explains why Chinese vampires are terrified of their reflection, because they are reminded that they have no soul.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also. back in the past, mirrors were made out of silver, and actually Balkan werewolves are considered a type of a vampire, so... if you add 2+2 u get 4. **It's quite possible that the modern myth is a combination of the silver and soul reflection theories.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As of the earlier myths... lol we are talking about centuries BC. Times before any written language.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other words it's impossible to tell how it appeared, but the most plausible theories are: **No soul, thus No reflection** and **Bram Stoker's imagination and bad translations, born from lack of understanding.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I mean, Bram Stoker did pretty lame job at describing the vampires, but they were sort of &quot;the thing&quot; back in the days and everybody just went along with it, which eventually brought us Edward the sparkling fairy. So I won't be surprised if someone told him that vampires are terrified of mirrors, and he tried to guess why, which spawned the myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Edit**: FAST google search:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Vampires][1] Wikipedia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Link from the bibliography. Fixed.][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[China Vampires Jiangshi][3], another wikipedia Article.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Random][4] [articles][5] [which][6] [pretty][7] [much][8] [repeat][9] [what I just said.][10]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, asking a Bulgarian about vampires is like asking a netflix addicted zombie fan about the zombie apocalypse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now about the Stoker thing(or how he did a sloppy job, since in the comments OP's comment sort of implied that stoker didn't do nothing wrong). (**Warning** Off Topic):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Gypsies are afraid of vampires and will not enter their territories. Actually they are far more superstitious than normal people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 2. Wooden stake - Actually is a specific type of wood. Cornus also known  as dogwood. And it is not required to be a stake. Even a needle will help you. Since vampires are considered something like giant balloons full of blood. The word that describes the item is Шип which can be translated as pretty much everything in between a stake, spike and a big needle. Depending on the dialect. Also the heart is also a myth. **EDIT** this thing about the wood is only about the Balkan Vampires,the Chinese ones are slain by peach tree. So it can only be a tree that destroys evil. In other words a wooden stake will not help you in 905 of the cases.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 3. He completely skipped the &quot;cut their feet&quot; part. Yeah, you can kill vampires by cutting their feet so that won't get up and attack the living, which will make em die of starvation. Which is pretty much the usual way vampires were killed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 4. People don't fear vampires, they gang up to slay them when they are still young. Thus Frankenstein is more of a vampire book than Dracula.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 5. Many many many other historical and translation issues. Yup Dracula was the Edward Cullen of the Victorian age. Sparkle, sparkle. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There were more but this post is not about this and I didn't finish the book. I made it up to like page +/- 150 of Dracula and it made me understand why people burned books back in the days...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;for more info write &quot;vampire burials/graves&quot; on google. It's full of info.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**EDIT 2:** Additional info. This time on Vampire myths instead of Stoker's mistakes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. There is no popular, written story dating prior to Bram Stoker, claiming that vampires are not reflected in mirrors. Actually there are many things about vampires that appeared after Stoker wrote his novel. I wonder why?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. Vampires, and bloodsuckers in general are far older than the bible itself and appear through out the history in almost all mythology from China to Egypt and eastern Europe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. The only known ancient vampires, prior to the book Dracula, that were related to mirrors, were the Chinese ones. Also they had reflection, it's just that it scared them instead of not appearing. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. Stoker spawned a huge cult to his creation, not the mythological being vampyr. The Mythological creature vampyr is only remotely related to Dracula. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;5. The mirror is most probably derivation created from combining various sources describing different types of vampires.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also another shady source: Knowing your country's history. Also there were many authors that Mentioned in many of their books, the original vampires. Authors like Jordan Radichkov, Ivan Vazov and many others. They all describe different vampires.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**EDIT 3:** There are people that actually said it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ok, I came back and did a quick google search. One of the 1st [links][11]. I quote:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One very famous trait Stoker added is the inability to be seen in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mirrors, which is not something found in traditional Eastern European&#xD;&#xA;&gt; folklore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, warping mythology is not modern mythology. If tomorrow someone says that Centaurs were half fishes half penguins, and it becomes a thing, it will not be considered a mythology. The mythological being will still be a man who has a body of a horse instead of his bottom half.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%80&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.protobulgarians.com/PODSTRANITSA%20NA%20DR%20ZHIVKO%20VOYNIKOV/PRALULG-DIAL-DUM-1.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiangshi#Methods_and_items_used_to_counter_jiangshis&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://dariknews.bg/view_article.php?article_id=1350208&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://mgpz.org/mitoveizagadki/drugi/vampir.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.burgasnews.com/ezoterika-i-misterii/74275-vnimavaite-s-ogledaloto-mozhe-da-krie-dushata-vi&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.trud.bg/Article.asp?ArticleId=4451362&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://listverse.com/2010/09/30/8-vampire-myths-explained/&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.fvza.org/vmyths.html&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/38466/is-there-a-reason-given-as-to-why-vampires-reflections-cannot-be-seen&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://dracula.cc/literature/bram_stoker_dracula/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10425" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1173" RevisionGUID="82dbc968-d41a-45c5-ae9d-e0e0dd7706b4" CreationDate="2017-04-13T12:43:39.103" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://scifi.stackexchange.com/ with https://scifi.stackexchange.com/" Text="I was reading [Why 7?](https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/106582/harry-potter-why-7) on SFF, and it got me thinking. I know that there are plenty of occurrences of the number 7 (see for example [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven)), some for quite a long time, for example the seven deadly sins of Christianity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In popular (western) culture, it is the number the most often associated to some supernatural power. There is a question here [on the importance attached to 7 in mythology and religion](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/622/why-is-7-important-in-mythology-and-religion).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What I'm interested in, is why is the number seven so common in mythology? Is there a reason why many different cultures, religions, and folklore put a high importance in the number seven?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Though related, the other question [Why is 7 important in mythology and religion?](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/622/why-is-7-important-in-mythology-and-religion) focuses on the meaning of the 7, whereas I am more interested in the origin of its importance and occurrence." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10426" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1337" RevisionGUID="385b815a-077a-45db-994a-62dcae5cac64" CreationDate="2017-04-13T12:43:39.103" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://scifi.stackexchange.com/ with https://scifi.stackexchange.com/" Text="There are a lot of mythological references, which states that the crow of a rooster is fatal to a [Basilisk][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From [CHAPTER XXXVI of the Bulfinch's mythology][2], **MODERN MONSTERS- THE PHOENIX- BASILISK- UNICORN-SALAMANDER.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There is an old saying that “everything has its enemy” – and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cockatrice quailed before the weasel. The basilisk might look daggers,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the weasel cared not, but advanced boldly to the conflict. When&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bitten, the weasel retired for a moment to eat some rue, which was the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; only plant the basilisks could not wither, returned with renewed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; strength and soundness to the charge, and never left the enemy till he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was stretched dead on the plain. **The monster, too, as if conscious of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the irregular way in which he came into the world, was supposed to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; have a great antipathy to a cock; and well he might, for as soon as he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; heard the cock crow he expired.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And from the [Aelian's characteristics of animals][3] (mythology from the 2nd century):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; With its crowing a cock scares a lion and is fatal to a basilisk.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In addition, there are a lot of instances where this is mentioned in the [Wikipedia article][1] too:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From Tales of Canterbury:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; basilisks can be killed by hearing the crow of a rooster&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the Cantabrian mythology:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The weasel is the only animal that can face and even attack it. It can&#xD;&#xA;&gt; only be killed with the crowing of a rooster, so, until very recent&#xD;&#xA;&gt; times, travelers were carrying a rooster when they ventured into areas&#xD;&#xA;&gt; where it was said that the basilisks lived&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**So, why is it that a rooster can fell such a monstrous creature?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any reason behind the formulation or origin of this?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;Related question on SciFi.SE: [Can the crow of a rooster petrify/kill a basilisk?](https://scifi.stackexchange.com/q/114769/53012)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilisk&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/bulf/bulf35.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.loebclassics.com/view/aelian-characteristics_animals/1958/pb_LCL446.351.xml?result=7&amp;rskey=v85Lg9&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10427" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1975" RevisionGUID="405a186a-cf40-44f5-aac3-a88a1b50da08" CreationDate="2017-04-13T12:43:39.103" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://scifi.stackexchange.com/ with https://scifi.stackexchange.com/" Text="I was trying to do some research of Geseriad (aka [Epic of King Gesar/Kesar][1]) details (for [this][2]), but while I found a couple of academic references, some even re-telling many parts of the epos, I wasn't able to find freely available text (in English telling or translation) of ANY version of Geseriad, Tibetian or Mongolian or Chinese.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there one that escaped my notice?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm fine if it's a very close re-telling, and not literal translation, e.g. like &quot;The Superhuman Life of Gesar of Ling&quot; By Alexandra David-Neel.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_King_Gesar&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/140147/in-universe-is-gesar-the-same-person-as-the-central-asian-folk-hero" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10428" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="213" RevisionGUID="738d884e-23d7-4b70-b2f0-62fd6b595dce" CreationDate="2017-04-13T12:47:53.310" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://history.stackexchange.com/ with https://history.stackexchange.com/" Text="Both the [kitsune][1] and [huli jing][2] are &quot;fox spirits&quot; with 9 tails, tricksters that can shapeshift into, or possess, young women.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- One famous kitsune appears in the [true story][3] of [Hideyoshi][4] writing a letter threatening to kill all foxes in Japan unless the kitsune ceases to possess one of his servants.&#xD;&#xA;- Perhaps the most well-known huli jing is the historical [Daji][5], consort of King Zhou and blamed for the fall of the Shang dynasty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems that they either have a common origin or are greatly influenced by each other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, according to some scholars, the kitsune may have been native to Japan, only acquiring its negative qualities from Chinese folklore later. In particular, kitsune are strongly related to the *kami* [Inari][6], whereas huli jing are not strongly associated with any god in particular. From Wikipedia:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Japanese folklorist Kiyoshi Nozaki argues that the Japanese regarded kitsune positively as early as the 4th century A.D.; the only things imported from China or Korea were the kitsune's negative attributes. He states that, according to a 16th-century book of records called the Nihon Ryakki, foxes and human beings lived close together in ancient Japan, and he contends that indigenous legends about the creatures arose as a result. Inari scholar Karen Smyers notes that the idea of the fox as seductress and the connection of the fox myths to Buddhism were introduced into Japanese folklore through similar Chinese stories, but she maintains that some fox stories contain elements unique to Japan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How much support is there for their separate origins? What is the relationship between these two mythical creatures?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsune&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huli_jing&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://history.stackexchange.com/q/5933/2957&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyotomi_Hideyoshi&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daji&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inari_%C5%8Ckami" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10429" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2492" RevisionGUID="8bd2d54e-e95f-4a04-8965-dfaf3efac496" CreationDate="2017-04-13T12:47:53.310" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://history.stackexchange.com/ with https://history.stackexchange.com/" Text="1. It was quite common to sack towns on the trip to, from, and even during the war.  (Compare to the medieval Crusaders.) I don't have time to run down specific examples, but there is a discussion here: https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/32312/why-did-homer-s-greeks-sack-so-many-cities-in-the-trojan-war-does-it-make-them&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. Ostensibly the gentrified townsfolk were not fierce as their country neighbors: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Meanwhile the Cicones went and called to other Cicones who were their neighbors, at once more numerous and braver than they—men that dwelt inland and were skilled at fighting with their foes from chariots, and, if need were, on foot.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Odyssey 9, 47-50][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. Totally normal.  Completely acceptable.  Generally perceived as admirable, thus gladly recounted by Odysseus.  (See 1.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. Women were generally regarded as chattel.  The term &quot;booty&quot; is most apropos.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4(b) Only significant prizes would be worth mentioning, such as [Andromache][2].    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4(c) Yup.  They are chattel, not worth mentioning unless they previously had high status.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is part of why [Euripides][3] is so important and even radical, shedding light on characters such as [Polyxena][4], Cassandra and Hecuba, and the plight of the [Trojan Women][5], after the fall of Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;5. He was probably just relieved Odysseus spared him, even though Odysseus' actions were based on fear of Apollo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*[Sorry for the brief answers, but I thought you'd appreciate some response.  I'll likely come back and amend when I have some more time.]*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D47&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromache_(play)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euripides#A_fabled_life&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecuba_(play)&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trojan_Women#Plot" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10430" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="201" RevisionGUID="9f87beb4-0b36-461a-8860-08641425106e" CreationDate="2017-04-13T12:51:05.703" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://buddhism.stackexchange.com/ with https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/" Text="It certainly seems that the Greek invasion of India led to the introduction of the first statues of the Buddha. The Greeks loved to make statues of their deities, but the early Buddhists did not. See this answer on Buddhism Stack Exchange: [Did the Buddha discourage antropomorphic representations of himself?](https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/questions/2515/did-the-buddha-discourage-antropomorphic-representations-of-himself)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Alexander himself certainly seemed interested in participating in all the local religions around which he was encountering:](http://www.academia.edu/5974580/When_the_Greeks_Converted_the_Buddha_Asymmetrical_Transfers_of_Knowledge_in_Indo-Greek_Cultures)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Alexander was unusually open to foreign religious influences and over the course of his lifetime he embraced many non-Greek deities and practices, sacrificing to the Egyptian gods while in Egypt and rebuilding the temple of the god Bel in Babylon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ultimately, it seems that the two cultures recognized the existence of the other as separate religions. There was enough cultural self awareness in this period in this part of the world for people to identify themselves as members of a particular religion, and ultimately to convert to another, such as the case of [Greek King Meander I](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menander_I), who converted to Buddhism in the second century BCE. There is a Buddhist text, the [Milinda Panha](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milinda_Panha), which is philosophical discussions between King Meander and a Buddhist monk Nagasena. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, ultimately, because of the self identification as distinct religions / traditions, *there appears to be little **narrative** crossover in this period*, as much as there were cultural crossover recognized in things like currency (see the Meander article again), art, and [morality, e.g.](http://www.academia.edu/5974580/When_the_Greeks_Converted_the_Buddha_Asymmetrical_Transfers_of_Knowledge_in_Indo-Greek_Cultures):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In order to propagate rules based on morality, equality and righteousness (Pāli dhamma; Skt. dharma), he employed several official languages and scripts derived from Aramaic, namely Brāhmī and Kharoṣṭhī, and also used Greek and Aramaic in public inscriptions carved on polished rock or stone. His pragmatism was likely to have been inspired by the Buddhists  who propagated their teachings in the languages spoken in different regions. In what may have been the earliest of these inscriptions issued in 258 B.C.E. Aśoka declares himself to have been a lay Buddhist disciple for more than two and a half years, and by the eighth year of his reign he publicly expresses remorse for the massacre in Kaliṇga and denounces the taking of lives." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10431" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="514" RevisionGUID="a4d75ceb-4124-4011-aefa-6b02ca793f21" CreationDate="2017-04-13T12:51:17.387" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://hinduism.stackexchange.com/ with https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/" Text="Short answer: Color signifies the property of the God's character. See [this Mantra reference](http://greenmesg.org/mantras_slokas/bhakta_hanuman-atulita_bala_dhamam.php)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Long answer: Honestly, anything I write here would be a duplicate of this excellent answer on Hinduism.SE: [Why are Hindu Gods colored?](https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/2696/why-are-hindu-gods-colored). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've made this answer community wiki as the content is not mine, so I don't deserve any rep from it. But at least this can be marked as accepted now. Here is the full text as written by [@Creator](https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/users/489/creator) in case it gets edited or removed:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Color signifies the property of the God's character&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; `Shiva is karpur Gaur` - i.e. white as a camphor, because he is sinless and is totally nirlipta(not affected by samsara or worldly habits or wealth) he is always covered in white Bhasma (ashes which come out of his own agni stambha form [refer :Linga Purana]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Talking about Rama he is light-blue colored signifying the calmness and politeness also the maryada(always being within human limits) in fact in our body the 5th chakra (from root chakra or mooladhar chakra) Throat Chakra is light-blue coloured (see [this][1] for more info on Throat Chakra or Vishudha chakra). It is said that after reaching this chakra kundalini dosen't goes down or one does not degrades (spritually) that's why lord Rama is taken as ideal human or god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dark Blue color of lord Krishna Depicts the milan of Shiva and Hari it means the Sandhya Kal (Evening Time) where day meets night (day-shiva night-hari(dark blue)). Also Narayana's core character is regarded as Krishna that's why he is depicted Dark Blue same as narayana.The Anjana Chakra (Third-Eye) has same color as lord Krishna (see [this][2] for more info)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; अतुलितबलधामं हेमशैलाभदेहं &lt;br&gt; दनुजवनकृशानुं ज्ञानिनामग्रगण्यम् ।&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; सकलगुणनिधानं वानराणामधीशं&lt;br&gt; रघुपतिप्रियभक्तं वातात्मजं नमामि ॥&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Mantra Reference][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This mantra from SunderKand of Ramayana depicts Characteristics of lord Hanuman. Here *Haemshalbdeham* means 'body like `Golden Mountain`'. The golden color of his body depicts that he is so beautiful and powerful (full of good aura) that his body has become golden also because of ram Bhakti or chanting of continuous ram name.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At Last Gauri as name depicts is white as her husband Mahadev Lord Shiva, because she has unified with him she posses same character as Mahadev Lord Shiva.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In humans it is the varna which is specified in jyotishya (Astrology) and the patrika of a person this depicts the color of human child when he is born and this affects its characterstics (do not consider it racism).According to this varna the gana is found.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Read [this][4] if you want more details on colour and their significance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vishuddha&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajna&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://greenmesg.org/mantras_slokas/bhakta_hanuman-atulita_bala_dhamam.php&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.wou.edu/provost/library/exhibits/exhibits2004-05/color/Images/hinduism.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10432" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="684" RevisionGUID="aeeb5c02-0b73-4364-8d29-fc86551430e7" CreationDate="2017-04-13T12:51:17.387" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://hinduism.stackexchange.com/ with https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/" Text="**No, Kalki only comes in this Kali Yuga, not every Kali Yuga.**  Let me first explain a bit about Hindu timescales.  The four Yugas known as Satya, Treta, Dwapara, and Kali together make up one Mahayuga, and a thousand Mahayugas make up one Kalpa or day of Brahma.  But in addition to being divided into 1000 Mahayugas, a Kalpa is also divided into fourteen Manvantaras, each of which is made up of about 71 Mahayugas.  We're currently living in the seventh Manvantara of the present Kalpa, known as the Vaivasvata Manavantara, and we're living in the 28th Kali Yuga of the Vaivasvata Manvantara.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now that we have some background, in [this chapter][1] of the Matsya Purana (an important Hindu scripture), various incarnations of Vishnu in the present Vaivasvata Manvantara are described.  But Kalki is only mentioned once, and that is in the current Kali Yuga.  [This excerpt][2] from the Skanda Purana says the same thing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And we can find explicit references to how Kali Yugas have ended in the past.  In particular, [this chapter][3] of the famous Hindu epic the Mahabharata describes how Vishnu's incarnation Parashurama brought about the end of the 19th Kali Yuga of the Vaivasvata Manvantara by killing the kings of the world:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Even the great ascetic Rama, the hero worshipped by all heroes, that son of Jamadagni, of great fame, will die, without being contented (with the period of his life). **Rooting out all evils from the earth, he caused the primeval Yuga to set in.** Having obtained unrivalled prosperity, no fault could be seen in him. His father having been slain and his calf having been stolen by the Kshatriyas, he without any boast, slew Kartavirya who had never been vanquished before by foes. With his bow he slew four and sixty times ten thousand Kshatriyas already within the jaws of death. In that slaughter were included fourteen thousand Brahmana-hating Kshatriyas of the Dantakura country, all of whom he slew. Of the Haihayas, he slew a thousand with his short club, a thousand with his sword, and a thousand by hanging. Heroic warriors, with their cars, steeds, and elephants, lay dead on the field, slain by the wise son of Jamadagni, enraged at the slaughter of his father. And Rama, on that occasion, slew ten thousand Kshatriyas with his axe. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact, as far as I know there was only one other occasion where Vishnu took a Kalki incarnation.  The Kalki incarnation was named Pramati, and he seems to have lived in the Swayambhuva Manvantara, the first Manvantara of the present Kalpa.  (The Kalki incarnation who is going to come in present Kali Yuga will be named Vishnuyasha.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By the way, if you're interested in those lists of Vaivasvata Manvantara incarnations found in the Matsya and Skanda Puranas, I've posted a few questions about them on Hinduism.SE, [here][4], [here][5], and [here][6].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=nckrAAAAMAAJ&amp;dq=%2224th%20treta%22&amp;pg=PA138#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.indianscriptures.com/Content/Articles/PDFs/27478/62f_chapter_19_2.pdf#toolbar=0&amp;pagemode=none&amp;view=FitBH&amp;page=1%22&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://Even%20the%20great%20ascetic%20Rama,%20the%20hero%20worshipped%20by%20all%20heroes,%20that%20son%20of%20Jamadagni,%20of%20great%20fame,%20will%20die,%20without%20being&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/q/7192/36&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/q/7194/36&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/q/7221/36" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10434" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1701" RevisionGUID="232f5854-a983-45cb-b071-3a6acf26597a" CreationDate="2017-04-13T12:51:17.387" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://hinduism.stackexchange.com/ with https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/" Text="One of the most well-known features of Hindu time-scales is the cycle of four Yugas, known as Satya, Treta, Dwapara, and Kali.  In the Satya (aka Krita) Yuga, almost all humans are good.  In the Treta Yuga, most humans are good but some are bad.  It's during one of the past Treta Yugas that the Hindu epic the Ramayana took place.  In the Dwapara Yuga, most humans are bad but some are good.  The Hindu epic the Mahabharata took place in the most recent  Dwapara Yuga.  And finally, we have the Kali Yuga, the age of evil we're currently living in, where almost all humans are bad.  The present Kali Yuga will end when Kalki, whom I discuss [here](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/684/14), comes and annihilates the evil people, and then the Satya Yuga will begin again.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now many cultures and ideologies idolize an imagined past in order to explain or criticize the world of the present.  So my question is, have any Indologists theorized that the Kali Yuga was invented in the Kali Yuga?  That is to say, have they theorized that the system of the four Yugas was invented at a certain point in time, that that point in time was declared to be part of the &quot;Kali Yuga&quot;, and Hindus have been considering themselves to be in the Kali Yuga ever since?  Or is the consensus of Indologists that there was a time in history when Hindus considered themselves to be living in some Yuga other than the Kali Yuga?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have come across Indologists who have advanced a slightly less bold thesis.  Most Hindu scriptures, including the Mahabharata and the Puranas, are believed to have been composed in the Dwapara Yuga.  So their discussion of the Kali Yuga take the form of prophecy, describing things like the mixing of castes, the abandoning of Vedic Dharma, and the invasion of India by Mlecchas or foreigners.  I have seen Indologists argue that such descriptions are not actual prophecies, but rather &quot;retroactive prophecies&quot; written by people who were describing the actual state of the society they were living in, and the faults they found with it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But have any Indologists gone one step further, and said that the very concept of the Kali Yuga was invented by people to diagnose why their society fell short of the ideas of Vedic society?  I suppose one piece of evidence they could use is that the Yuga system is seldom mentioned in the Vedas, and is mainly mentioned in later texts like the Puranas.  And also there is a verse, widely believed to be spurious, in the Brahma Vaivarta Purana which says certain Vedic practices like animal sacrifice and Niyoga (which I discuss [here](https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/a/7628/36)) were allowed in earlier Yugas but are prohibited in the Kali Yuga.  This could be seen as an indication that people were accustomed to using the concept of Yugas to relegate aspects of Hinduism they didn't like to an earlier age whose customs are presumed no longer relevant to the world as it is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that I am a devout Hindu and a strong believer in the Yuga system; I'm just posting this question because I'm curious as to what secular scholarship has to say on this subject.  I'm a [Hinduism Stackexchange](http://hinduism.stackexchange.com) moderator, but I'm posting the question here because I don't want people there mistakenly thinking that I'm casting doubt on the Yuga system." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10435" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2513" RevisionGUID="4da03bfb-2247-46a7-8c67-9bdab90d590c" CreationDate="2017-04-13T12:51:17.387" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://hinduism.stackexchange.com/ with https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/" Text="You really want to look at [Ravana][1] from Hindu mythology.  Chopping off his head was not effective as a means of killing him *(and in fact, Ravana is quite content to chop off his own heads;)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of death per dismemberment, to further support Lauren Ipsum's answer, Zeus' son, [Dionysus][2], was torn apart by titans and bounced back.  *(&quot;He's a fighter&quot; in the parlance of modern, medical dramas.)*  Thus, if the father of Zeus and the son of Zeus both survived dismemberment, it would be a reasonable assumption Zeus would also survive it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Osiris][3] was also famously dismembered and returned to life, demonstrating the ancient origin of this idea. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Norse Gods can be killed.  Greek gods not so much.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/a/2324&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omophagia&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris#Osirism" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10436" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="856" RevisionGUID="4c0a0968-3379-4c05-b1c9-fd7d93de989d" CreationDate="2017-04-13T12:52:35.907" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/ with https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/" Text="You are in ancient Greece. Everyone is gathered around the campfire (or theatre, or temple, or wherever people tell stories). A renowned storyteller is telling a story about Artemis hunting in the local forest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Suddenly, someone gets up and asks:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; why [hasn't] anyone since many generations remember seeing Artemis hunting in the nearby forests?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What do you think the storyteller would say? Maybe he will ignore the question, maybe he will say that you are bad at looking for things in the forest, [maybe he will go Rick Riordan and invent something similar to the mist][1] (which was based on something said in the Iliad, where a god prevented a mortal from seeing something), maybe he will will say [&quot;because it's death to look on a god/goddess in their true form&quot;][2], or maybe he will say [&quot;because Artemis kills \[male\] mortals who spy on her&quot;][3]. There are many &quot;logical&quot; explanations storytellers can make. The storyteller may also think you are an atheist ([there were atheists in Greece at the time][4]). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(That paragraph should have answered your question.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's what I think: **it doesn't matter**. As you can tell from the variety of &quot;excuses&quot;, coming up with a consistent explanation for why people don't see magic **is not a priority of religions or storytellers**. People who understand religions or literature (i.e. not the internet) know that *the supernatural is a metaphor*, and is not supposed to make rational or scientific sense. It's only recently that we've seen [authors][5] (and people on the internet) trying to reconcile irrational metaphors with rational science. In my opinion, it's a complete waste of time and won't lead to a better understanding of the story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The well-known religions of the developed world...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are you referring to Abrahamic religions, or just Christianity and Judaism (not Islam)? Either way, you have an extremely small sample size: most &quot;pagan&quot;/&quot;non-modern&quot; religions that I can think of are based around the idea of gods/spirits interacting with the real world on a regular basis. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...teach about an all-powerful, transcendental God, existing in a state far beyond our understanding of space and time, who will come at the end of the world but until then doesn't interfere too much or too visibly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;God did &quot;interfere&quot; with the world several times, both in the new testament and the old, and a similar question to this one is *how do Christians explain how God created the world in seven days when the majority of scientific evidence says that's not possible?*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which gets back to my original point: asking for religions (and literature in general) to justify themselves scientifically is neither the point of religion nor the best way to understand religion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I will accept my downvotes stoically. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://camphalfblood.wikia.com/wiki/Mist&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semele#Seduction_by_Zeus_and_birth_of_Dionysus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actaeon&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismhistory/a/AncientGreeceSkepticism.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10437" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2103" RevisionGUID="3f4c5872-a4a2-4604-93c5-5c108963171f" CreationDate="2017-04-13T12:52:35.907" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/ with https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/" Text="[This relatively popular question on the Stack Exchange Worldbuilding site][1] claims that legends originate from history:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Given a vaguely European Medieval society free of magic, **how long does it take for historic record to devolve into fiction**? Rephrased, how long would it take an Arthurian legend to form, where the scholars of the setting don't know how much of it (or if any of it) is based on actual historic events and people?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This idea is a common trope in fantasy][2] -- for example, Galadriel (a character from *The Lord of the Rings*) famously says that &quot;History became legend. Legend became myth.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is that accurate? Does history actually &quot;devolve&quot; into oral literature (folklore)? Or is the creation of folklore -- even folklore that features historical figures -- created through another process?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/q/62140/171&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LegendFadesToMyth" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10438" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="927" RevisionGUID="14aa890d-be18-4978-9d35-585439f6e393" CreationDate="2017-04-13T12:53:49.407" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://spanish.stackexchange.com/ with https://spanish.stackexchange.com/" Text="I originally posted this question in the [Spanish StackExchange][1] but it seems it fits more in here, even though the significance of the word looks more direct in Spanish than English.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My doubt rose up after vaguely remember the words of a professor I had some years ago at the University, but I've been unable to find the source of the history on Internet.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What I remember about what he said is that the story began with a God who is in love with a river and from that relation emerged the mermaids, from which arise the word &quot;encantar&quot; (from the word &quot;cantar&quot;-&quot;to sing&quot; in spanish). This behaviour of seducing people by singing (apart from the extremely beauty of mermaids) is then related with a person who can extract you from this monotony and commonly distraught reality (associated with the life of sailors in a boat) and take you to a new more spiritual and joyful reality without the delusions of the other (associated with the place after death in the case of the sailors).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question then arises as if anybody can recognize this (intent of) cite and point out the classic text in which it's narrated (or maybe not a classic text but a posterior analysis and analogy of some classic text). I think this history is really beautiful, and wonderful to dedicate to a person who you really love and appreciate :)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://spanish.stackexchange.com/questions/13025/etimolog%C3%ADa-de-la-palabra-encantadora-visto-desde-el-contexto-de-la-mitolog%C3%ADa-g" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10439" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="635" RevisionGUID="3dd358ae-3170-4db7-8885-6717ba465b58" CreationDate="2017-04-13T12:56:54.560" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://christianity.stackexchange.com/ with https://christianity.stackexchange.com/" Text="##The name El was a generic name.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the Wikipedia article on [El](), &quot;El&quot; was a generic name for a god, usually a supreme god. In that sense, &quot;El&quot; functions very much like &quot;God&quot; does in the English language.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ʾĒl ...is a Northwest Semitic word meaning &quot;god&quot; or &quot;deity&quot;, or referring (as a proper name) to any one of multiple major Ancient Near East deities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Specific deities known as El or Il include the supreme god of the Canaanite religion,&lt;sup&gt;[[4](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)#cite_note-FOOTNOTEMatthews200479-4)]&lt;/sup&gt; the supreme god of the Mesopotamian Semites in the pre-Sargonic period,&lt;sup&gt;[[5](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)#CITEREFGelb1961)]&lt;/sup&gt; and the God of the Hebrew Bible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[There are many names of God](https://christianity.stackexchange.com/a/706/58) in the Bible, and many start with &quot;El&quot;. Now, the Legend of Keret is an Ugaritic story, whereas the Wikipedia article and the Bible talk about Canaan. So, it's worth noting that&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The foundations of the Bronze Age city Ugarit were divided into quarters. In the north-east quarter of the walled enclosure, the remains of three significant religious buildings were discovered, including two temples (of the gods Baal Hadad and Dagon) and a building referred to as the library or the high priest's house. Within these structures atop the acropolis numerous invaluable mythological texts were found. These texts have provided the basis for understanding of the Canaanite mythological world and religion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ~ [Wikipedia: Ugaritic Religion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugarit#Ugaritic_religion)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;[Baal](https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=baal&amp;qs_version=NIV)&quot; and &quot;[Dagon](https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=dagon&amp;qs_version=NIV)&quot; both appear in the Old Testament as Canaanite/Philistine/pagan gods. So Ugarite and Canaan are closely related.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##El in the Legend of Keret is *not* the same as El in the Bible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As [durron597 quoted in his answer](http://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/602/18),&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [I]n the Ugaritic texts the god El is revealed to be wholly benevolent in nature, whereas Yahweh has a fierce as well as a kind side.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ~ [Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan, John Day, 13-14](http://books.google.com/books?id=y-gfwlltlRwC)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Indeed, looking at the original text, near the end this god El is referred to as&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Kindly One, El Benign&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ~ [Ugaritic Myths, Epics, and Legends](http://www.ericlevy.com/Revel/Intro2/ANET%20Ugarit%20Epics.PDF), p 148&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have never heard Yahweh/the Christian God (let's use &quot;Jehovah&quot;) called &quot;benign&quot;. He is *benevolent*, yes, but that's not all there is to Him. There are several more quite significant differences that further distinguish &quot;El&quot; and Yahweh/Jehovah, including but not limited to:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - King Keret is El's son. Yahweh doesn't have a son.&#xD;&#xA; - King Keret almost died. Jehovah's son wasn't mortal until his birth around 3-4 A.D., give or take 2 years. These myths are separated by 1200-1500 years. (Plus, Jehovah's son *did* die [and was resurrected, but that's beside the point].)&#xD;&#xA; - There are multiple positive/neutral references to gods (such as Baal, Asherah, and Ashtoreth) in the Legend of Keret that are strongly condemned in the Old Testament.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even if the god &quot;El&quot; referred to in the Legend of Keret and the god that became known as Yahweh used to be the same, so to speak, by the time any of the books in the Bible were written, they were certainly different gods." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10440" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="208" RevisionGUID="79583d4e-91d8-4ff7-aa38-67e62cdf5615" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="[Wikipedia][1] reads:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He also created the Labyrinth on Crete, in which the Minotaur (part man, part bull) was kept.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However what was the main purpose of the Labyrinth being built? Was it just for keeping a bull?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I guess this has been mentioned by Homer. Or maybe there are some other stories describing it?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is another [cite][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The myth of the Minotaur tells that Theseus, a prince from Athens, sailed to Crete, where he was forced to fight a terrible creature called the Minotaur. The Minotaur was a half man, half bull, and was kept in the Labyrinth - a building like a maze - by the king Minos, the ruler of Crete.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This could indicate that the Labyrinth was used as some kind of fight arena, so people could get punished there?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And in [here][3] it's suggested that the Labyrinth could be in fact the Palace of Knossos. Therefore the purpose could be just residential.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore, did the purpose of the Labyrinth have any other meaning than just housing the Minotaur?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daedalus#The_Labyrinth&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knossos#Legends_of_Knossos&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/233/51" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10441" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="217" RevisionGUID="9fc657d0-1381-42e1-a497-b3d2f6a513b7" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="Among East Asian / Confucian empires (China and Vietnam, maybe others), emperors ruled under a philosophical concept known as [Mandate of Heaven][1] - that is, heaven will grant a specific ruler the right of government based on virtue, and natural disasters were seen as signs of heaven's displeasure with the current ruler. Under this belief system, the emperor has the title of [Son of Heaven][2] (天子).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unlike Japanese emperors that also have the same title (*tenshi*) who are literally descended from [Amaterasu][3], there is no lineage in the Chinese system, only a title anointed by heaven. But who or what is &quot;heaven&quot;? Is it an actual god, like the [supreme god Shangdi][4]? The Celestial Bureaucracy as a whole - and if so, are there gods within the &quot;mandate&quot; system, such as judges, bringers of natural disasters and so on? Or some other concept of [&quot;heaven&quot;][5] entirely?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandate_of_Heaven&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_Heaven&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amaterasu&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/138/91&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tian" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10442" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="247" RevisionGUID="02f42225-100a-40d1-8197-4c4990e23580" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="Here is the picture of cylinder seal VA/243.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![cylinder seal VA/243][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Image credits: [Z. Sitchin][2]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This seal was named like that because it is number 243 in the collection of the Vorderasiatische Museum in Berlin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the correct meaning of the star symbol (including 11 dots around) shown below?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![cylinder seal VA/243 - star symbols][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So in total [12][4] mysterious objects (I guess).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is I guess explained in [A Brief Analysis of Cylinder Seal VA 243][5], however it's still not clear for me.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And the star in the middle, is it our Sun or it's not?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If it's not, is it referring to some specific constellation?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ceEZu.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sitchin.com/teapot.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/VVWRX.png&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/257/51&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.sitchiniswrong.com/VA243seal.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10443" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="257" RevisionGUID="c483011f-6714-48ed-b785-e7fcef6bc466" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="In many religions, such as the Greeks, the number 12 is considered holy and sacred for many generations. There are 12 main gods in Greek mythology, Odin had 12 sons in Norse mythology, 12 disicples of Christ in Christinaity, and 12 Imams in the Islam religion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So why exactly is the number 12 considered sacred and holy by many religions?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: This [answer][1] by naltipar has inspired my question. He has said this, which deems my question unanswered as of now:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I have found no reference (and I believe there isn't any) as to **why** it is deemed a special number, apart from the fact that it had many mathematical properties, such as being the first number with six divisors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;   [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/148/967" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10444" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="308" RevisionGUID="f54cc223-be76-4917-aad9-03e02b3ed23f" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="Was there any distinctive clothing which depicted Sumerian gods (Anunnaki) and their [ranks][1]? Like wearing helmets with horns?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Few examples:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [cylinder seal VA/243][2]&#xD;&#xA;- Akkadian Cylinder Seal of Adda (c. 2250 B.C.) with, left to right, Ninurta, Ishtar, Shamash, and Ea. From Dury, Art of the Ancient Near and Middle East, Abrams, NY&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  ![Akkadian Cylinder Seal of Adda (c. 2250 B.C.) with, left to right, Ninurta, Ishtar, Shamash, and Ea. From Dury, Art of the Ancient Near and Middle East, Abrams, NY.][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Akkadian Cylinder Seal (c. 2200 B.C. showing Gilgamesh slaying the bull of heaven, with Enkidu? Also from Dury; both in British Museum)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  ![Akkadian Cylinder Seal (c. 2200 B.C. showing Gilgamesh slaying the bull of heaven, with Enkidu? Also from Dury; both in British Museum.][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Image sources: [tulane.edu][5]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/237/51&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/247/51&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/6aBXX.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/s4j3O.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.tulane.edu/~danny/arch.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10445" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="311" RevisionGUID="def519e6-9dc2-4759-9ac5-117077915c0c" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="On Anunnaki Wikipedia page we can read:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Their relation to the group of gods known as the Igigi is unclear – at times the names are used synonymously but in the Atra-Hasis flood myth the Igigi are the sixth generation of the gods who have to work for the Anunnaki, rebelling after 40 days and replaced by the creation of humans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further down:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jeremy Black and Anthony Green offer a slightly different perspective on the Igigi and the Anunnaki, writing that &quot;lgigu or Igigi is a term introduced in the Old Babylonian Period as a name for the (ten) &quot;great gods&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the Epic of Creation, it is said that there are 300 lgigu of heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this [answer][1] we can read that scientists believe that there could be as many as 750 Anunnaki.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore, what is the difference between Igigi and Anunnaki, can anybody elaborate that?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Were they different group of deities or Igigi were just the lower class of Anunnaki?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/221/51" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10446" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="324" RevisionGUID="0b4f2a9c-8f3d-4e54-a5c4-7e7df91289e5" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="The information about the _Plant of Everlasting Youth_ form the Sumerian mythos can be found on the second half of [**The Epic of Gilgamesh**][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [_Tablet eleven_][2] Utnapishtim's wife asks her husband to offer a parting gift to Gilgamesh, so he learns that &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; at the bottom of the sea there lives a boxthorn-like plant that will make **him young again** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Note: there is already a related question with [an answer][3] that states that this plant _was most probably a species of Rhamnus_).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The _Tablen eleven_ states that &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; if you can possess this plant, you'll be again as you were in your youth [...] with it a man can regain his vigour&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and that Gilgamesh was planing to test this plant on a man of old age to see it the plan would rejuvenate him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The epic explains how Gilgamesh loses the plant, so he can never make use of it. It is not described if it rejuvenating effects ara permanent or just a work-only-once-per-take property.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh &#xD;&#xA;[2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh#Tablet_eleven&#xD;&#xA;[3]:https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/281/171" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10447" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="361" RevisionGUID="8071ad79-61b6-4477-a455-6d3b78ce4075" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="As far as I understood the myth of Medusa, she was punished by Athena (either for letting herself being raped by Poseidon or for [succumbing to Poseidon's woes][1]). Her sisters, Euryale and Stheno (all daughters of Phorcys and Ceto) stood with Medusa, and Athena transformed all of them in _gorgons_.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm not surprised about the punishment of the gods, neither to Medusa for her offenses nor to her sisters for staying with her (most Greek mythos depict similar punishments for something that is almost responsibility of the gods), but I'm surprised by the fact that Medusa is depicted as the only mortal of the Gorgons: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And again, Ceto bore to Phorcys the fair-cheeked Graiae, sisters grey from their birth: and both deathless gods and men who walk on earth call them Graiae, Pemphredo well-clad, and saffron-robed Enyo, and the Gorgons who dwell beyond glorious Ocean in the frontier land towards Night where are the clear-voiced Hesperides, Sthenno, and Euryale, and Medusa who suffered a woeful fate: **she was mortal, but the two were undying and grew not old.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hes. Th. 275](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hes.+Th.+275&amp;fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why this difference between the three of them? Is something that is attributable to Athena when transforming the sisters? Or for any reason they were different in spite of being daughters of the same father and mother? Is is just due to the definition of &quot;immortal&quot; (meaning from &quot;not growing old&quot; to &quot;can't be killed or die&quot;)? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]:https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/299/171" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10448" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="382" RevisionGUID="306dc213-ec1b-4e4e-af50-b0d3e999930a" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="The two human survivors are [Lif and Lifthrasir](http://norse-mythology.org/lif-lifthrasir/). They live through Ragnarök by [hiding in Yggdrasil](http://www.viking-mythology.com/ragnarok.php) before the great battles, supposedly [in Hoddmimir's wood](http://www.timelessmyths.com/norse/ragnarok.html#NewAge). Apparently, [Vafthrudnir told this to Odin](http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/norse-mythology.php?deity=RAGNAROK) in a prophecy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They are mentioned in verse 45 of [*Vafþrúðnismál*](http://www.heimskringla.no/wiki/Vaf%C3%BEr%C3%BA%C3%B0nism%C3%A1l):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Líf ok Lifþrasir,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;br&gt;en þau leynask munu&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;br&gt;í holti Hoddmímis;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;br&gt;morgindöggvar&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;br&gt;þau sér at mat hafa,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; en þaðan af aldir alask.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't know Icelandic, but [this answer](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/131/how-is-the-hoddm%c3%admis-holt-able-to-protect-humans-from-ragnar%c3%b6k/271#271) gives me&#xD;&#xA;&gt;45. Lif and Lifthrasir&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; lie hidden&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; in the grove of Hoard-Mimir;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; the morning dews&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; they shall have as meat,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; from them generations will spring.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;source: http://www.germanicmythology.com/PoeticEdda/GRM27.html&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This verse is the source of the prophecy to Odin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems that the two humans were, though prophesied, simply random people who happened to find a safe (and sacred) place to hide.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the reasons why Yggdrasil was safe, see https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/131/how-is-the-hoddm%c3%admis-holt-able-to-protect-humans-from-ragnar%c3%b6k?lq=1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10449" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="394" RevisionGUID="3caa6a0e-b475-4cad-a347-c02cc3226fcd" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="It *actually* was a gradual process. It was primarily driven by his personal popularity in a society where [ancestor worship has long been an integral element](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancestor_veneration_in_China). Moreso than his fame as a general, his personality traits (loyalty, bravery, honesty) appealed to traditional Chinese sensibilities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Among the general population, Liu Bei and Guan Yu have set a more significant moral standard than Confucius or Mencius.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Yong, Jin, and Daisaku Ikeda. C*ompassionate Light in Asia: A Dialogue.* IB Tauris, 2013.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These factors led to his popularity steadily increasing, before he really became a deity per se (as opposed to a folk hero venerated in the tradition of ancestor worship). So that by the [Song Dynasty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_dynasty), the bureaucrat-author Hao Jing wrote that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 其英靈義烈遍天下，故所在廟祀，福善禍惡，神威赫然，人咸畏而敬之，而燕、趙、荊、楚爲尤篤。郡國州縣、鄉邑間井皆有廟。&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *(rough translation)* His righteousness and strength of character is known throughout the world. Hence his temple brings fortune and wards off disaster, and people respect his might. The provinces of Yan, Zhao, Jin and Chu are particularly pious. Every county, province, city and village has his temples.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Between the Song and [Yuan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuan_dynasty) dynasties, a tradition of [historical fiction](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_fiction#10-18th-century) flourished in China. The [Three Kingdoms era](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Kingdoms) from which Guan Yu hailed were one of [the most popular topics](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_of_the_Three_Kingdoms), and this greatly aided the spread of his fame.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is well known that the spread of the worship of Guan Yu as a folk deity beyond the confines of sectarian religion was communicated in the vernacular novels and plays of the Song-Yuan transition.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt; - Duara, Prasenjit. *The Global and Regional in China’s Nation-Formation.* Routledge, 2008.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore, when he received his imperial (divine) title during the Ming Dynasty, it was already after centuries of popularity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For references on the [deification process described previously](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/revisions/394/3), see: `关羽崇拜硏究 by 蔡东洲 &amp; 文廷海`" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10450" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="431" RevisionGUID="e01a4da5-d5f9-4c36-ae98-70f68bbb96b2" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="The 12 is a holy number, because, according to Sitchin interpretation of Sumerian mythology, this is how gods grouped the stars in each sky segment into constellations (known as the twelve zodiac constellations) and named them after their own leaders ([The Pantheon of Twelve][1], e.g. [Taurus][2], etc.).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; To them (gods) this number, twelve, was a basic number to be applied in all celestial matters affecting the Bond Heaven-Earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [...] they grouped the stars in each sky segment into constellations. &lt;sup&gt;[p.49][3]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/206/51&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/182/51&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://ia701206.us.archive.org/20/items/CompleteWorksportugusEnglish/ZechariaSitchin-TheCosmicCode.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10451" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="441" RevisionGUID="443ea778-9de0-4cdf-8def-120cdcb98a2e" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="In the story of Ragnarok, [Lif and Lifthrasir survive by hiding in Yggdrasil](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/382/87), and presumably they go on to repopulate the world after all the fighting is over.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any other cultures whose end-of-the-world myths explicitly include some survivors who could potentially rebuild civilization?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10452" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="472" RevisionGUID="1d2dce7d-1de2-404a-8da3-5babed897a91" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="First, there was nothing. Absolutely nothing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the beginning there was only Chaos. Then out of the void appeared Erebus, the unknowable place where death dwells, and Night. All else was empty, silent, endless, dark. Then, Love was born bringing along the beginning of order. From Love emerged Light, followed by Gaea, the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;http://www.greekmythology.com/Myths/The_Myths/The_Creation/the_creation.html&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That's one version. Another explanation is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It all started when Chaos, Gaea (Earth) and Eros started sleeping with each other, leading to the Gods. So, in Greek mythology, the creation of the world starts with the creation of the different classes of Gods. In this instance, the term 'gods' refers to the characters that ruled the Earth (without necessarily possessing any divine attributes) until the 'real' Gods, the Olympians, came.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;http://www.greekmythology.com/Myths/The_Myths/The_Creation_II/the_creation_ii.html&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These are based in Hesiod's *Theogony*. I was able to find [an actual quote from it](http://www.theoi.com/greek-mythology/primeval-gods.html):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Declare to me from the beginning, you Mousai who dwell in the house of Olympos, and tell me which of them first came to be.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In truth at first Khaos (Air) came to be, but next wide-bosomed Gaia (Earth), the ever-sure foundation of all the deathless ones who hold the peaks of snowy Olympos, and dim Tartaros (the Pit) in the depth of the wide-pathed Earth, and Eros (Love), fairest among the deathless gods, who unnerves the limbs and overcomes the mind and wise counsels of all gods and all men within them. From Khaos (Air) came forth Erebos (Darkness) and black Nyx (Night); but of Nyx (Night) were born Aither (Light) and Hemera (Day), whom she conceived and bore from union in love with Erebos. And Gaia (Earth) first bore starry Ouranos (Heaven), equal to herself, to cover her on every side, and to be an ever-sure abiding-place for the blessed gods. And she brought forth long Ourea (Mountains), graceful haunts of the goddess Nymphai who dwell amongst the glens of the hills. She bore also the fruitless deep with his raging swell, Pontos (Sea), without sweet union of love.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But afterwards he [Gaia, Earth] lay with Ouranos (Heaven) and bare deep-swirling Okeanos, Koios and Krios and Hyperion and Iapetos, Theia and Rhea, Themis and Mnemosyne and gold-crowned Phoibe and lovely Tethys. After them was born Kronos the wily.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; -- Hesiod, Theogony 115&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aristophanes had a slightly different version:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At the beginning there was only Khaos (Air), Nyx (Night), dark Erebos (Darkness), and deep Tartaros (Hell's Pit). Ge (Earth), Aer (Air) and Ouranos (Heaven) had no existence. Firstly, black-winged Nyx (Night) laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebos (Darkness), and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros (Love) with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartaros (Hell-Pit) with dark Khaos (Air), winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race [the birds], which was the first to see the light. That of the Immortals did not exist until Eros had brought together all the ingredients of the world, and from their marriage Ouranos (Heaven), Okeanos (Ocean), Ge (Earth) and the imperishable race of blessed gods (Theoi) sprang into being.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; -- Aristophanes, Birds 685&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In both cases, Gaea is understood to be a personification of the Earth; the same goes for Chaos, Erebus/Erebos, Eros, and many of the others.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For information on just *how* Gaea begat her children, see https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/650/how-were-the-first-children-of-gaia-conceived." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10453" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="479" RevisionGUID="6e7c3ca1-eb89-4a37-82cd-8fb696439d70" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="This is the offshoot I mentioned of [this question](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/448/how-old-was-merlin-when-he-died-at-the-hand-of-niviane-or-the-lady-of-the-lake).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [this](http://www.timelessmyths.com/arthurian/merlin.html#DeadMerlin),&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In a few tales, a maiden or a fay had trapped Merlin in an enchantment. The most famous was the Lady of the Lake. Again, there are few versions involving his death at the hand of the Lady of the Lake.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Lady of the Lake was a powerful sorceress and the lady of Otherworldly realm, hidden by the illusionary lake. The Lady of the Lake was known by several other names, such as Niniane, Viviane and Nimue. Further confusion resulted when some author listed several women with title the Lady of the Lake.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Following [a link](http://www.timelessmyths.com/arthurian/women.html#Lake),&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There seemed to be several &quot;Lady of the Lake&quot;. The most important Lady of the Lake was Niniane (also known as Viviane, Vivien or Nimue). Some even say that Morgan le Fay was also the Lady of the Lake, though most often Morgan was referred to as one of nine sorceresses of Avalon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even more detail is given [here](http://www.kingarthursknights.com/others/ladylake.asp). I looked at [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_of_the_Lake) and found:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Post-Vulgate Cycle's second Lady of the Lake is called Ninianne, and her story is nearly identical to the one in the Lancelot-Grail, though it adds her bestowal of the magic sword Excalibur to Arthur. Sir Thomas Malory also uses both Ladies of the Lake in his Le Morte d'Arthur; he leaves the first one unnamed and calls the second one Nimue.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems like the &quot;some author&quot; mentioned in the first quote is Sir Thomas Malory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any connection between the two Ladies of the Lake, given that Malory implies that they are separate figures?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10454" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="490" RevisionGUID="a7fd12a6-ec03-4e10-a3c4-f86b64473bda" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="This is an offshoot of a [question][1] asked about the Ba and Ka. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What were the other 3 parts of the Egyptian soul and what did they represent?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/309/in-ancient-egypt-what-did-the-ba-and-the-ka-represent?rq=1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10455" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="506" RevisionGUID="4551a704-d4ad-4390-86ac-83d7061791ea" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="In [this answer](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/356/18), I saw this in a quote-in-a-quote:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; during the Third Age [equivalent to the Age in which the Popol Vuh places the invention of shooting out such magical darts], the sun stood still for one full day without moving from its place; - [*Esotericism of the Popol Vuh*: Chapter 10](http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/popolvuh/pv-10.htm)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This caught my eye because the sun stands still in [Joshua 10](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua+10&amp;version=NIV) in the Bible as well, so I went looking for this event in the Popol Vuh itself. However, I had difficulty finding it and was recently enlightened to the fact that, according to Hamlet's comment below, this does not appear in the Popol Vuh.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where then does it appear? What Native American myth has the sun stand still for a full day?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10456" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="510" RevisionGUID="5d492a18-abdb-4517-a3e4-59f4edae2924" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="Excalibur was returned to the lake from whence it came.  Most accounts have it that Sir Bedivere  took it there from Camlan.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Malory is the only source that I know of that mentions an arm taking the sword.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the monks of Glastonbury Abbey, it was returned at what is now Pomparles Bridge over the River Brue.  Just to the southwest of the Isle of Avalon.  In the dark ages, this was undrained marshland.  The whole area would have been a collection of lakes that changed position with the seasons.  Therefore, almost anywhere could have been described as being the same lake as the origin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many other myths of geomancy surrounding this part of the world.  As mentioned in my answer to &lt;a href=&quot;https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/183/what-species-is-the-lady-of-the-lake/191#191&quot;&gt;this question&lt;/a&gt; the lake itself could easily have been regarded as possessing female energy, particularly at this location.  This would mean that the answer to &quot;*to whom was Excalibur returned?*&quot; being &quot;*the lake herself*&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Indeed, the area flooded every year until the drainage was improved in the 1970s, each year seeing floods in different parts of the moors.  And as seen in 2014, can still flood badly." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10457" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="526" RevisionGUID="0c586e8c-282c-477b-bbfd-80fc0b078cef" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="I don't really consider that a particularly good source. Virgil says that Cacus was Half Human, in the Aeneid, Book VIII:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There was a cave here, receding to vast depths,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; untouched by the sun’s rays, inhabited by the fell shape&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Cacus, **the half-human,** and the ground was always warm&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with fresh blood, and the heads of men, insolently&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; nailed to the doors, hung there pallid with sad decay.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Vulcan was father to this monster:** and, as he moved&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his massive bulk, he belched out his dark fires.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now at last time brought what we wished, the presence&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and assistance of a god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Additionally, I have been unable to find a single corroborating citation to your source about Medusa being Cacus's mother. Especially since, as a Gorgon, Medusa was a [Daughter of Phorcys and his sister Ceto, ancient Cthonic deities](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medusa), and was therefore not human.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, your source says that Cacus inherited Monstrousness from his mother, but we know that other children of Hephaestus were also monsters, for example in [Apollonius I](http://www.theoi.com/Text/ApolloniusRhodius1.html):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [202] With him came Palaemonius, son of Olenian Lernus, of Lernus by repute, but his birth was from Hephaestus; and so he was crippled in his feet, but his bodily frame and his valour no one would dare to scorn.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Side note: Being a God did not shield one from Medusa. See: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/412/how-did-athena-keep-from-being-turned-into-stone-by-her-shield/415#415" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10458" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="528" RevisionGUID="3a687cb3-b2e0-4a1a-814a-64c4ce69888b" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="This answer is a supplement to [durron597's answer][1] - which is completely correct and should be the accepted one. I'm writing this answer because there are several misconceptions floating around about the meaning and the implications of Campbell's monomyth, and I want to clarify them. This answer also gets at the original question -- why is the monomyth so common.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(I'm not going to cite sources in this answer because this is my own interpretation of Campbell, and the arguments I'm using are probably different from Campbell's own. However, I think my interpretation is useful and will help people understand Campbell.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The monomyth is more interesting to people who study literature than it is to people who study religion. This is because it is fundamentally about how stories are composed and not directly about religion, though Campbell (successfully) argues that stories are a key component of religion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although most people describe the monomyth as having 12 steps, I think of it as a two step process:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. The hero is put into an unfamiliar situation or faces an obstacle.&#xD;&#xA;2. The hero learns to overcome that situation/obstacle (or just learns something) &#xD;&#xA;  - The hero could be compared to a child/adolescent learning to navigate the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason why the monomyth is so common is that the two step formula I just described is one of the best ways to tell a story; some people would say it's the only way. *If you are an author and you want to teach your readers a lesson (e.g. how to live their life), a great way to do that is to create a story where the hero faces a challenge (e.g. my life is not meaningful) and then overcomes it (e.g. the hero finds meaning in their life). **Because people place themselves in the situation and see through the eyes of the characters they read about**, the reader will then learn from the fictional characters and learn how to overcome similar obstacles in their own life.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As Campbell notes, the monomyth is frequently used in religion, but I think that has more to do with the fact that religions use stories than with religions using the monomyth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/525/62" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10459" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="530" RevisionGUID="ddf4dd71-00c9-4707-89a0-96d7044d4ab6" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="[As I learned](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/508/18) from my previous question, the Toltecs had a myth where the Sun did not move for a day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the year 8 Tochtli, which was 1,347 years after the second calamity and 4,779 years since the creation of the world, it is recorded in their history that **the sun stood still one natural day without moving**,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ~ [*The Historical Works of Fernando de Alva Ixtlilxochitl.* Edited and annotated by Alfredo Chavero, 1892.](http://www.ancientamerica.org/library/media/382chapter11.htm)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This struck me as interesting because this myth also appears in the Bible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 12 On the day the Lord gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the Lord in the presence of Israel:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;pre&gt;&#xD;&#xA;“Sun, stand still over Gibeon,&#xD;&#xA;    and you, moon, over the Valley of Aijalon.”&#xD;&#xA;13 So the sun stood still,&#xD;&#xA;    and the moon stopped,&#xD;&#xA;    till the nation avenged itself on[b] its enemies,&#xD;&#xA;as it is written in the Book of Jashar.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;/pre&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day.** 14 There has never been a day like it before or since, a day when the Lord listened to a human being. Surely the Lord was fighting for Israel!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ~ [Joshua 10:12-14](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=joshua+10%3A12-14&amp;version=NIV)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This made me wonder if these are the same event. Do the chronologies of these myths match up?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10460" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="572" RevisionGUID="a6859de0-8239-4ce8-91c8-e5f6a0ee4c4a" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="In the Táin Bó Cúailnge, the men of Ulster are disabled by a curse placed upon them by Macha to feel her labor pains in their hour of greatest need, thus disabling them when the army of Connacht attacks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cúchulainn is immune to this curse.  As I understand it, he is immune because he is yet a beardless youth, and so a curse upon the men does not apply to him.  This makes sense, since, when an exhausted Cúchulainn sleeps three days, the boys of Ulster come to the defense.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've also read that the explanation of his immunity is due to his demi-godhood, being that he is the son of Lugh, the Long Arm.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So why isn't Cúchulainn's charioteer, Loeg mac Riangabra, affected?  I can't find where it's stated he's older that Cúchulainn, but if I'm mistaken on that point, I [must not](http://old.john844.org/sites/default/files/images/scan0105.preview.jpg) [be alone](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Cuinbattle.jpg)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Related question: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/596/why-isnt-s%C3%BAaltam-disabled-by-machas-curse" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10461" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="596" RevisionGUID="55f8a72d-2e4f-43bd-9091-0afc3279413e" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="In the Táin Bó Cúailnge, the men of Ulster are disabled by a curse placed upon them by Macha to feel her labor pains in their hour of greatest need, thus disabling them when the army of Connacht attacks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cúchulainn is immune to the curse.  I've understood that he is immune because he is a beardless youth, and so not affected by a curse affecting the men of Ulster.  It may also be due to his demi-godhood, as a son of Lugh, the Long Arm.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In either case, Súaltam, Cúchulainn's human father, is neither a youth, nor is he descended from the Tuatha Dé Danann.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [translation from L. Winifred Faraday](http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/tain_faraday.pdf) states specifically that Súaltam was unaffected:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A warning was sent from Fergus to the Ulstermen here, for friendship. They were now in the weakness, except Cúchulainn and his father Sualtaim.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And [this version combining the translation efforts of Joseph Dunn and Ernst Windisch](http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/) has an apparently unaffected Súaltam out grazing his horse with Cúchulainn when the warning from Fergus arrives, and Súaltam sets out for Emain Macha (in [6: March of the Host](http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/March.html)).  This is after the curse is first said to have taken affect in [4: The Foretelling](http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/Foretelling.html).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Related question:  https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/572/why-arent-s%C3%BAaltam-and-loeg-disabled-by-machas-curse" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10462" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="597" RevisionGUID="d004e2db-d4fc-4adb-b95e-5b766457bfc4" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="Hades, apparently, was present in the battlefield when Hercules besieged Pylos: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And so suffered monstrous Hades even as the rest a bitter arrow, when this same man, the son of Zeus that beareth the aegis, smote him in Pylos amid the dead, and gave him over to pains. But he went to the house of Zeus and to high Olympus with grief at heart, pierced through with pains; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hom. Il. 5.395](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hom.+Il.+5.395&amp;fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is one of the rare instances we see [Hades outside the Underworld][1]. One interpretation for his presence in the battlefield is that he was there collecting or overseeing the collection of souls (&quot;amid the dead&quot;). This interpretation, however, feels to me like an attempt to attach Christian symbolism to the story. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any other references for Hades visiting battlefields? And if so, are there any explicit mentions on what exactly was the reason for him being there?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/496/57" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10463" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="620" RevisionGUID="8e3ff991-50a5-4223-9880-3a1e10e96744" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="I found [an interesting site](http://www.behindthename.com/) for comparing names. I can't trace the exact source(s) used for all four names, but the [references](http://www.behindthename.com/info/references) given for the entire site may prove useful (and impossible to scroll through, admittedly).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **[Adam:](http://www.behindthename.com/name/adam)** Originally from the Hebrew אדם, &quot;'adam&quot;, meaning &quot;man&quot;.&#xD;&#xA; - **[Eve:](http://www.behindthename.com/name/eve)** Originally from the Hebrew חַוָּה, &quot;chawwah&quot;, derived from חוה,&quot;chawah&quot;, meaning &quot;to breathe&quot;, or חיה, &quot;chayah&quot;, meaning &quot;to live&quot;.&#xD;&#xA; - **[Ask:](http://www.behindthename.com/name/ask)** Originally from the Old Norse &quot;askr&quot;, meaning &quot;ash tree&quot;.&#xD;&#xA; - **[Embla:](http://www.behindthename.com/name/embla)** Originally from the Old Norse &quot;almr&quot;, meaning &quot;elm&quot;. The origin of &quot;Embla&quot; is less certain; other scholars give it as [&quot;water pot&quot;](http://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/others/ask-and-embla/).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Old Norse](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Norse) is, at heart, an [Indo-European language](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages). [Hebrew](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language), on the other hand, is an [Afro-Asiatic language](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afroasiatic_languages). Given that these two families are extremely different, it appears that their last common ancestral language would have to be millennia ago. Old Norse dates back less than 1,000 years ago, while Hebrew, from its earliest forms, is about 3,000 years old.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There seems to be no connection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, as [Dolda2000 writes](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/27/adam-and-eve-vs-ask-and-embla/620#comment2805_620), [Christianity existed in Scandinavia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianization_of_Scandinavia) prior to the writing down of some of these tales, although perhaps not before their inception." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10464" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="622" RevisionGUID="474b37b2-b420-4c98-a16b-810961a4f5ea" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="&lt;h3&gt;Similar question&lt;/h3&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[Why is 12 such a holy number?][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/257/why-is-12-such-a-holy-number/273#273&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;7 is one of the most important number in history. It would be hard to ignore :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The seven days of the week&#xD;&#xA; - The seven deadly sins&#xD;&#xA; - The lucky 7&#xD;&#xA; - The seven wise men of Greece&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is 7 such an important number? What are the other societies it had an important place in?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10465" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="628" RevisionGUID="0f6ae493-a5fb-4dd6-a748-4bedb26db6f8" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="An archetypal story of a wandering party of adventures is the story of Jason and the [Argonauts](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argonauts) long and arduous expedition to Colchis in order to retrieve the Golden Fleece. Although the myth was known in Homeric times, its classic telling is the [Argonautica](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argonautica), the only surviving Hellenistic epic, written by [Apollonius of Rhodes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonius_of_Rhodes). The oldest surviving version of the story can be found in Pindar's [Pythian Ode IV: For Arcesilas of Cyrene Chariot Race 462 BC](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0033.tlg002.perseus-eng1:4).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the story, the party is first assembled in [Iolcos](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iolcos), when famed heroes of the era answer Jason's call for adventure. The story is noted for its moral ambiguity, a departure from the clear lines between good and evil in the Homeric epics. Whether the Argonauts are a party of heroes returning the Golden Fleece to its rightful place, or a bunch of pirates wreaking havoc for little more than personal gain is left to the reader to decide.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the adventures themselves, although there's no definitive list of the Argonauts, here are some of the more interesting characters: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Jason](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  The leader of the company is the only one of the adventurers who isn't an established warrior or craftsman at the beginning of the story. The Argonautica is essentially his coming of age story. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Orpheus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orpheus)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  In modern RPG vernacular, the legendary poet would be the bard of the party. His songs soothe tensions amongst the crew, and he saves the day when the Argonauts encounter the [Sirens](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siren_%28mythology%29).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Argus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argus_(son_of_Arestor))&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;  The builder of Argo, and also a member of her crew. It is heavily implied in the story that the journey would be impossible without Argus at the helm of the ship. He is the elder of the company, and the one Jason would more often turn to for counsel. &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;- [Medea](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medea)&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;  The echantress fulfils the role of Jason's love interest. She appears late in the story, and only joins the crew after they've retrieved the Golden Fleece. She [commits fratricide](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absyrtus) to help the crew escape Colchis and [uses her magic to kill Talos](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/218/57) and Pelias. If you are familiar with [Dungeons &amp; Dragons](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons), you'd probably think of Medea as [neutral evil](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)#Neutral_Evil).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Heracles](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heracles)  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;  The legendary brute doesn't feature much in the story, in Argonautica he's left behind in the first book. However, his role is crucial in the forming the company: The Argonauts, including Jason, elect him to lead their journey. However, Heracles passes the role to Jason, establishing the young adventurer's position atop the hierarchy of the company early on in the story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think this limited set is enough to show how diverse the members of the party were. This wasn't an army ordered to retrieve the Fleece, but a party brought together by a common sense of adventure. Although tensions between members were common, ultimately the combination of their unique strengths and skillsets lead them to success. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10466" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="632" RevisionGUID="30c8c821-883e-466a-b9ad-7897bb4c6b65" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="I recently listened to [Purcell's &quot;King Arthur&quot;][1], and at one point in the libretto, the Saxons sing of the &quot;juice that makes the Britons bold&quot; (at 11:40 in the linked video; the movement starts at 11:00), which immediately made me think of Asterix with the magic potion(/juice) that makes the Gauls(/Celts/Britons) strong(/bold).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there some underlying mythology about some Celtic potion that makes people bold/strong, or is the connection entirely apparent and spurious? (And in the case of the latter, what does the juice actually refer to?)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As an aside, I also find it interesting that they'd drink British potions in the hall of Woden. What's up with that?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The whole libretto is available [here][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Yes, this is very similar to my [other question][3]. King Arthur deals me a few surprises.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byecmk9ANYs&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.impresario.ch/libretto/libpurkin_e.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/629/are-elves-born-on-the-moon" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10467" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="635" RevisionGUID="7187ebb1-f69d-44ec-9646-dc6fefafb623" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="##The name El was a generic name.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the Wikipedia article on [El](), &quot;El&quot; was a generic name for a god, usually a supreme god. In that sense, &quot;El&quot; functions very much like &quot;God&quot; does in the English language.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ʾĒl ...is a Northwest Semitic word meaning &quot;god&quot; or &quot;deity&quot;, or referring (as a proper name) to any one of multiple major Ancient Near East deities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Specific deities known as El or Il include the supreme god of the Canaanite religion,&lt;sup&gt;[[4](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)#cite_note-FOOTNOTEMatthews200479-4)]&lt;/sup&gt; the supreme god of the Mesopotamian Semites in the pre-Sargonic period,&lt;sup&gt;[[5](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)#CITEREFGelb1961)]&lt;/sup&gt; and the God of the Hebrew Bible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[There are many names of God](https://christianity.stackexchange.com/a/706/58) in the Bible, and many start with &quot;El&quot;. Now, the Legend of Keret is an Ugaritic story, whereas the Wikipedia article and the Bible talk about Canaan. So, it's worth noting that&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The foundations of the Bronze Age city Ugarit were divided into quarters. In the north-east quarter of the walled enclosure, the remains of three significant religious buildings were discovered, including two temples (of the gods Baal Hadad and Dagon) and a building referred to as the library or the high priest's house. Within these structures atop the acropolis numerous invaluable mythological texts were found. These texts have provided the basis for understanding of the Canaanite mythological world and religion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ~ [Wikipedia: Ugaritic Religion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugarit#Ugaritic_religion)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;[Baal](https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=baal&amp;qs_version=NIV)&quot; and &quot;[Dagon](https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=dagon&amp;qs_version=NIV)&quot; both appear in the Old Testament as Canaanite/Philistine/pagan gods. So Ugarite and Canaan are closely related.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##El in the Legend of Keret is *not* the same as El in the Bible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As [durron597 quoted in his answer](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/602/18),&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [I]n the Ugaritic texts the god El is revealed to be wholly benevolent in nature, whereas Yahweh has a fierce as well as a kind side.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ~ [Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan, John Day, 13-14](http://books.google.com/books?id=y-gfwlltlRwC)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Indeed, looking at the original text, near the end this god El is referred to as&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Kindly One, El Benign&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ~ [Ugaritic Myths, Epics, and Legends](http://www.ericlevy.com/Revel/Intro2/ANET%20Ugarit%20Epics.PDF), p 148&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have never heard Yahweh/the Christian God (let's use &quot;Jehovah&quot;) called &quot;benign&quot;. He is *benevolent*, yes, but that's not all there is to Him. There are several more quite significant differences that further distinguish &quot;El&quot; and Yahweh/Jehovah, including but not limited to:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - King Keret is El's son. Yahweh doesn't have a son.&#xD;&#xA; - King Keret almost died. Jehovah's son wasn't mortal until his birth around 3-4 A.D., give or take 2 years. These myths are separated by 1200-1500 years. (Plus, Jehovah's son *did* die [and was resurrected, but that's beside the point].)&#xD;&#xA; - There are multiple positive/neutral references to gods (such as Baal, Asherah, and Ashtoreth) in the Legend of Keret that are strongly condemned in the Old Testament.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even if the god &quot;El&quot; referred to in the Legend of Keret and the god that became known as Yahweh used to be the same, so to speak, by the time any of the books in the Bible were written, they were certainly different gods." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10468" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="682" RevisionGUID="12511c7d-84b7-432e-acca-cc5b05efeb0d" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="Earlier in the Tain Bo Cuailnge, [Fergus Mac Roich and Cuchulainn meet for single combat](http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/Fergus.html).  At this time, Fergus makes an arrangement with Cuchulainn, that if Cuchulainn yeilds to him in their single combat, Fergus will yield when [they meet in battle of the Tain](http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/Muster.html).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why couldn't a similar arrangement have been reached when he was [forced to meet Ferdiad mac Damain](http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/Ferdiad.html), his foster-brother, in single combat as well?  They are both young and hot-headeed, but by the third day of their combat it seems clear that Ferdiad regrets the battle:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Culann's Hound, with floods of deeds,  &#xD;&#xA;Medb, not thou, hath us betrayed;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yet both combatants seem to find there is no choice but to continue the battle to the death.  So what makes the situation different from the earlier meeting with Fergus?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Related question:  https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/693/how-could-cuchulainn-yeild-to-fergus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10469" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="693" RevisionGUID="28fc73a1-5934-4578-8727-b8ca29effb64" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="This is closely related to a previous question:  https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/682/why-couldnt-cuchulainn-yield-to-ferdiad-or-vice-versa&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems clear from the [answer there](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/683/42) that Cuchulainn would be bound to fight to defend the men of Ulster, regardless of any affection for his opponent. Clearly, that includes his foster-brother Ferdiad, who he eventually kills in a grueling single combat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, when his foster-father, Fergus Mac Roich, is selected to meet Cuchulainn in single combat, they come to an arrangement, and Cuchulainn agrees to yield to him on that day, and in exchange Fergus will yield to him later.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems from the exchange with Ferdiad, though, that an arangement like this in order to avoid fighting someone he loves is not adequate to satisfy Cuchulainn's honor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So why does he yield?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10470" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="713" RevisionGUID="8635d753-241e-4b31-a5be-00f856a737fb" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="The Descent of Inanna (Ishtar) was unearthed from 1889 - 1900, but as far as I can tell, it wasn't really considered that well reconstructed until around the 1940s or later.  Early published versions were based on less complete information, and had to make assumptions that turned out incorrect, especially with regards to Dumuzi's (Tammuz) role in the story (See: Kramer's explanation of the decipherment in [this print version](http://www.amazon.com/Inanna-Queen-Heaven-Earth-Stories/dp/0060908548), and also [&quot;Tammuz and the Bible&quot;](http://www.jstor.org/stable/3265029)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I will be using [Wolkstein and Kramer's translation](http://www.amazon.com/Inanna-Queen-Heaven-Earth-Stories/dp/0060908548) of the text, published in 1983.  Both because it's excellent and well-explained, and because it's the one sitting on my desk.  [Full text here.](http://people.uncw.edu/deagona/myth/Descent%20Of%20Inanna.pdf)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, we could take Inanna (Ishtar) at her word.  Her overt reason is given:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Inanna answered:  &#xD;&#xA;&quot;Because . . . of my older sister, Ereshkigal,  &#xD;&#xA;Her husband, Gugulanna, the Bull of Heaven, has died.  &#xD;&#xA;I have come to witness the funeral rites.  &#xD;&#xA;Let the beer of his funeral rites be poured into the cup.  &#xD;&#xA;Let it be done.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That, however, is just the excuse she gives at the gate.  It doesn't seem likely this is her real reason for the trip.  More likely the real reason is shown here:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; From the Great Above she opened her ear to the Great Below.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; From the Great Above the goddess opened her ear to the Great Below.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; From the Great Above Inanna opened her ear to the Great Below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which gives us the hint that she has heard the Great Below, the underworld, in some way.  Wolkstein's explanations, however, give us more to go on:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Inanna is the Queen of Heaven and Earth, but she does not know the underworld.  Until her ear opens to the Great Below, her understanding is necessarily limited.  In Sumerian, the word for ear and wisdom is the same ... In order to fully appreciate or &quot;know&quot;  what is said or meant, a great understanding is needed - an understanding of all things.  It is the Great Below, and knowledge of death and rebirth, life and stasis, that will make Inanna an &quot;Honored Counselor&quot; and a guide to the land.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So Inanna, already powerful and knowledgeable of Heaven and Earth, needs to acquire knowledge of death and the underworld to be complete in her wisdom.  This is further supported later, from the statement of Enlil, when hearing that Inanna has not returned from the underworld:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;My daughter craved the Great Above.  &#xD;&#xA;Inanna craved the Great Below.  &#xD;&#xA;She who receives the *me* of the underworld does not return.  &#xD;&#xA;She who goes to the Dark City stays there.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here Enlil (and later, Nanna, in an identical statement) states that Inanna has gone seeking the *me* of the underworld.  [*me* is a tricky word](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/726/what-is-the-meaning-of-the-word-me-in-the-descent-of-inanna) that most translators refuse to translate, and too much can be said about it to address completely here.  Suffice to say, the *me* represent knowledge and wisdom.  So, the gods know that she has gone seeking that knowledge that can only be gained in the underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To go just one more step, a *very popular* interpretation of the text is through a Jungian lens.  Just to hit the main points very briefly.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The goal of gaining wisdom of the underworld, to complement the wisdom of the heavens and of the earth, speaks of Inanna becoming complete, but this interpretation views it, instead of her completing her body of knowledge, she is completing herself, developing into a *whole* person (goddess).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this light, we see Inanna and her sister Ereshkigal as part of the same whole person.  In order to become complete, Inanna must become vulnerable, and face the dark side of herself (Ereshkigal), die and be reborn.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Inanna abandons her temples on the way to the underworld, and has to leave her crown, robe and other vestments (also *me*. Like I said, complicated) at the gates of the underworld.  She arrives naked, powerless and vulnerable.  The death and rebirth are fairly clear to be read, but of particular interest is that after Inanna's death, and preparing for rebirth, Ereshkigal is in pain &quot;With the cries of a woman about to give birth.&quot;  Which does rather speak to the interpretation of being reborn from her darker half." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10471" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="766" RevisionGUID="4b676cce-c81c-4391-8d90-0b92714cb4b8" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="According to [Edith Hamilton's Mythology](http://www.amazon.com/Mythology-Timeless-Tales-Gods-Heroes/dp/0446574759), there are several sea gods and river gods. Since [Poseidon is one of the twelve main greek god(desses)][1], is he the ruler of or otherwise in charge of those sea and river gods?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/146/why-were-there-exactly-12-main-olympian-gods" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10473" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="889" RevisionGUID="dea4dc40-96cb-419d-9f2e-35334407f3d9" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="Perhaps **the Graeae** bear mentioning.  The Graeae were 2-4 sisters who only had one eye (and one tooth) to share between them.  There is not any indication that means there was ever a loss of another 3-7 eyes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, Perseus stole their sole eye on his way to slay Medusa.  In the most well-known version of the myth today, the eye is then ransomed back to them for information.  However, is other versions of the myth, the eye was not returned, and Perseus merely took advantage of their blindness to pass by them:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [Hyginus Astronomica](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusAstronomica.html#12), the eye was not returned, but rather was cast into a nearby lake:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They are thought to have had but one eye among them, and thus to have kept guard, watch one taking it in her turn. This eye Perseus snatches, as one was passing it to another, and threw is in Lake Tritonis. So, when the guards were blinded, he easily killed the Gorgon when she was overcome with sleep. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And similar according to [Ovid's Metamorphoses](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D4%3Acard%3D706), while no mention of what became of the eye is given, it certainly doesn't seem to be returned to them:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There is a spot beneath cold Atlas, where in bulwarks of enormous strength, to guard its rocky entrance, dwelt two sisters, born of Phorcys. These were wont to share in turn a single eye between them: this by craft I got possession of, when one essayed to hand it to the other.—I put forth my hand and took it as it passed between: then, far, remote, through rocky pathless crags, over wild hills that bristled with great woods, I thence arrived to where the Gorgon dwelt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems that the Graeae were almost certainly immortal ([2/3 of their other siblings, the gorgons, were, anyway](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/361/why-was-medusa-the-only-mortal-of-the-gorgons)), but whether they fit your definition of &quot;gods&quot; I can only leave to your judgement." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10475" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="921" RevisionGUID="e3cd21b1-1d83-4da0-9fbd-d47530ecdd04" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="[This](http://www.timelessmyths.com/celtic/faeries.html#Korrigan) compares the Korrigans to three earlier mythological figures:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Ceridwen&#xD;&#xA; - The Lady of the Fountain&#xD;&#xA; - The Lady of the Lake&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ceridwen** is first (and perhaps only) mentioned in the story of *[Taliesin](http://sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab32.htm)*, in the Mabinogion. She is not depicted favorably - as a magical figure who, to put it one way, reacts poorly to failure. She really only appears in the first part of the story; her role leads to the life of Taliesin, the main character. her name, however, sounds quite similar to that of the Korrigans. Given that mythological names can change over time, she could be an important precursor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*[The Lady of the Fountain](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab05.htm)* is a tale of King Arthur, also related to a French poem, *Ywain, or, The Knight with the Lion*. It features (of course) **the Lady of the Fountain**, also referred to as the **Countess of the Fountain**. She does not appear to directly have any magical powers, but the Fountain does - at least in the story of Ywain. In this tale, she is named **[Laudine](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laudine)**. The important tie here is that in the French version (as well, I think as the Arthurian), the Lady hails from Gaul or Brittany.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**[The Lady of the Lake](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_of_the_Lake)** is, of course, a central character in the stories of King Arthur (though there are some odd discrepancies; I would be indebted to anyone who can answer [this](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/479/is-there-any-relationship-between-the-ladies-of-the-lake)). I think that while the etymological argument in favor of Ceridwen being the influence is strong, there is also a very good argument to be made for the Lady of the Lake in Avalon. She is described as having eight other sisters; this is quite consistent with the nine Korrigans Keightley refers to as existing on some versions of the myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Each character has one or more chief similarities to the Korrigans, aside from any magical powers and other defining characteristics. For Ceridwen, it is the name. For the Lady of the Fountain, it is that she hails from Gaul or Brittany. For the Lady of the Lake, it is that she is one of nine sisters. It does seem likely that the Korrigans are composites of the three, meaning that the Korrigans did not appear in Breton folklore at a particular time, but were corruptions of earlier tales." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10476" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="929" RevisionGUID="76f1bf4e-cb18-494a-8c0f-7d1fd3054b89" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="Ero Sɘnnin's [answer][1] in [How was it decided which warriors would go to Fólkvangr and which to Valhalla?][2] seems to suggest that Odin gets to choose who enters Valhalla: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Valhalla is presided over by Odin, and to gain entrance to it, one must be chosen by him and his valkyries, the “choosers of the fallen.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The only difference that is pointed out, is in the way that the dead are chosen to stay. Odin chooses for Valhalla, while Freya chooses for Folkvang.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This seems to be supported by Ero's (secondary) source: [Death and the Afterlife, Norse Mythology for Smart People][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the Gylfaginning seems to be painting a slightly different picture (chapter 24): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Folkvang it is called,  &#xD;&#xA;And there rules Freyja.  &#xD;&#xA;For the seats in the hall  &#xD;&#xA;Half of the slain  &#xD;&#xA;She chooses each day;  &#xD;&#xA;The other half is Odin's.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Wikisource contributors, 'Prose Edda/Gylfaginning', Wikisource , 29 January 2013, 01:25 UTC, &lt;https://en.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning&amp;oldid=4271175&gt; [accessed 22 June 2015]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The way I read the above quote, Freyja is the one who chooses, and Odin and Valhalla receive the &quot;half of the slain&quot; that's left. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does Odin actually have a say? Or is Valhalla essentially the hall of Freyja's rejects?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/269/57&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/10/57&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://norse-mythology.org/concepts/death-and-the-afterlife/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10478" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="987" RevisionGUID="37b95ebe-3acf-45ef-8135-3f9e8d41f4d4" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="They indeed did, and they highlighted it in different ways. One way was to negate the earlier myth. I gave one example in a [previous thread](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/598/was-there-a-significant-transformation-of-the-heracles-mythos-from-homeric-times/970#970). In Pindar's _Olympians_ ode 1, he references the fact that others before him have a version of a myth that is incompatible with his beliefs, namely that Tantalus would kill his son Pelops and feed him to the gods. Instead he creates a story of jealous neighbors who propagate the false myth; really, Pelops was just on Olympus with Poseidon all along!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another way to do it is to just ignore the discrepancy, because the discrepancy is not the main point. Hesiod's _Works and Days_ has a good example of this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First, he includes a self-correction:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So, after all, there was not one kind of Strife alone, but all over the earth there are two.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Hesiod, _Works and Days_, 11](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0132%3Acard%3D11)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [_Theogony_ 225](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D207), Hesiod originally listed the goddess Strife (Eris in Greek), who was born of Night (Nyx). Because the point of the _Works and Days_ is different from Theogony, in that he wants to promote the labor of men and hard work, he invents another Strife to use for didactic purposes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But the real inconsistency lies further in. In [_Works and Days_ 42-104](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0132%3Acard%3D42), Hesiod narrates the fall of man through the story of Pandora. After Prometheus stole fire from Olympus and gave it to men, Zeus, angry that men might not now work as hard, devised a plan to give them woman. He made the first woman, Pandora, gave her intense curiosity, and then gave her to Epimetheus, the brother of Prometheus. He then gave Epimetheus a box (nowadays called a jar) filled with various evils. Her curiosity got the better of her, and she opening the box let out all the evils to plague mankind, making it worse than before.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, he thinks that maybe his story didn't quite get across:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So is there no way to escape the will of Zeus. Or if you will, I will sum you up another tale well and skilfully—and do you lay it up in your heart,—how the gods and mortal men sprang from one source.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Hesiod, _Works and Days_ 109](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0132%3Acard%3D83)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now ([109-179](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0132%3Acard%3D109)) Hesiod narrates the &quot;races of men,&quot; in which mortals are created by the gods in several different metals: gold first, and blessed are they; then silver, but they were full of hubris; then bronze, but they were too bloodthirsty; then the &quot;Age of Heroes&quot;, i.e. the Trojan and Theban material; lastly the iron age, which is the current age, and was made degenerate. There is no Pandora, there is no Promethean fire, and that doesn't seem to bother him much. Perhaps these might be closer to parables, but Greek writers believed in them in earnest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later authors, especially late ones, tended to accept some and expect variation among reports. [Diodorus Siculus](http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Diodorus_Siculus/4B*.html) is a good example of this one. When discussing the famous [Calydonian Boar hunt](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/627/are-there-any-ancient-myths-about-adventuring-parties/940#940), he first gives a brief overview of the accepted &quot;facts&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The facts are these: Once when Oeneus had an excellent crop of grain, he offered sacrifices to the other gods, but neglected Artemis alone; and angered at him for this the goddess sent forth against him the famous Calydonian boar, a creature of enormous size. 3 This animal harried the neighbouring land and damaged the farms; whereupon Meleager, the son of Oeneus, being then in the bloom of youth and excelling in strength and in courage, took along with himself many of the bravest men and set out to hunt the beast. Meleager was the first to plunge his javelin into it and by general agreement was accorded the reward of valour, which consisted of the skin of the animal. 4 But Atalantê, the daughter of Schoeneus, participated in the hunt, and since Meleager was enamoured of her, he relinquished in her favour the skin and the praise for the greatest bravery. The sons of Thestius, however, who had also joined in the hunt, were angered at what he had done, since he had honoured a stranger woman above them and set kinship aside. Consequently, setting at naught the award which Meleager had made, they lay in wait for Atalantê, and falling upon her as she returned to Arcadia took from her the skin. 5 Meleager, however, was deeply incensed both because of the love which he bore Atalantê and because of the dishonour shown her, and espoused the cause of Atalantê. And first of all he urged the robbers to return to the woman the meed of valour which he had given her; and when they paid no heed to him he slew them, although they were brothers of Althaea. Consequently Althaea, overcome with anguish at the slaying of the men of her own blood, uttered a curse in which she demanded the death of Meleager; and the immortals, so the account runs, gave heed to her and made an end of his life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He then _immediately_ follows it up with an account given by &quot;certain writers of myth&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But certain writers of myths give the following account: — At the time of the birth of Meleager the Fates stood over Althaea in her sleep and said to her that her son Meleager would die at the moment when the brand in the fire had been consumed. Consequently, when she had given birth, she believed that the safety of her child depended upon the preservation of the brand and so she guarded the brand with every care. 7 Afterward, however, being deeply incensed at the murder of her brothers, she burned the brand and so made herself the cause of the death of Meleager; but as time went on she grieved more and more over what she had done and finally made an end of her life by hanging.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And that's just it! It doesn't seem to bother Diodorus at all, and it likely didn't bother very many Greeks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a similar way, the accounts of Electra in Aeschylus' _Oresteia_, Sophocles' _Electra_, and both Euripides' _Electra_ and his _Orestes_ all differ greatly from each other, depending on what they want to emphasize. This was not only acceptable, but encouraged, as sticking too close to someone else's interpretation was considered bad-form, as some comedians were accused of doing; check out Scott McGill's Plagiarism in Latin Literature (2012) [pp. 130-131](https://books.google.com/books?id=B8AxNv5CTdEC&amp;pg=PA130#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false) (earlier pages are unfortunately hidden for Google Books, but the discussion goes on a bit before and after if you want to find a real copy) for an early Roman accusation against Plautus and Terence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D207" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10479" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="992" RevisionGUID="f673ede4-98cf-4c32-8a97-051b79cd6f75" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="So, there are a couple things at play here. As Anna V. noted, he likely represents the sun. Besides the flaming wheel in the sky, a cult title of Apollo is Ixios, apparently from the city of Ixiae, but perhaps also related to Ixion here. However, Apollo and Helios (i.e. the sun) were not originally the same deity, and so the connection there is intriguing but uncertain. Moreover, the name defies attempts at etymology, although the [LSJ suggests](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=%CE%99%CE%BE%CE%AF%CF%89%CE%BD&amp;la=greek#lexicon) a possibility with ἱκέτης (_hiketēs_), meaning &quot;suppliant.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other ideas for Ixion put forth are related to clouds. Since Ixion laid with a cloud thinking it was Hera, some, such as Martin Nilsson, have speculated that instead of a sun, he was some figure for making it rain. Nilsson also points out that this cloud was connected with Nephele (which is merely Greek for &quot;cloud&quot;) in the Argonaut story, where she saves Phrixus and Helle by sending them a ram with golden fleece.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ixion also must be of extreme antiquity and likely connected to Märchen, as he is completely divorced from any of the major lineages.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are parallels for him, though. Besides &quot;the sun&quot; or &quot;rain clouds&quot;, he is one of the major offenders against the order of Zeus' universe, such as Sisyphus, Tantalus, Asclepius, Atlas, Prometheus, and later Iapetus' two other sons Menoetius and Epimetheus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sisyphus might be the closest parallel to Ixion, as one who rolls a rock up the hill and lets it fall back down parallels the rising and fall of the sun, but other interpretations are possible, such as the waves, the tides, the moon even. His sin was to hold death hostage so that no one could die.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tantalus' crime I outlined [here](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/598/was-there-a-significant-transformation-of-the-heracles-mythos-from-homeric-times/970#970). I do not know what the pool of water below and fruit trees above him mean. It is interesting to note that Pindar thinks his crime was stealing ambrosia (and thus attempting immortality), which parallels not only Sisyphus' crime above, but also Asclepius', who with his medicine could raise the dead. Asclepius wasn't punished in Hades, but outright zapped by lightning ([Pindar, *Pythian* 3](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0162%3Abook%3DP.%3Apoem%3D3)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Their crime however probably reflect Pindar's preoccupation with the hubris of his clientele. After winning fame and glory (kleos is the key word here) in athletic games, they might have developed a big head, and Pindar, suggests Crotty, Kurke, and Nicholson, might have added a tender caution in his praise.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Atlas and Prometheus are both tied in some way to mountains (Prometheus literally), with Atlas at the western edge of the world (the Atlas Mountains in Morocco) and Prometheus in the eastern edge (the Caucasus Mountains).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod picked up on this and schematized it, making Atlas, Prometheus, Epimetheus, and Menoetius (though a titan, the name is human, and is shared with Patroclus' father in the _Iliad_, e.g. [16.14](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0133%3Abook%3D16%3Acard%3D1)), all of which committed some injustice against Zeus which characterizes human condition. Menoetius was full of hubris, and thus Zeus struck him with a thunderbolt. Epimetheus (&quot;afterthought&quot;, based on his brother Prometheus, &quot;forethought&quot;) of course received Pandora, the first woman and the one who unleashed evils on humankind. (Hesiod, *[Theogony](http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm)* 507–558 and *[Works &amp; Days](http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/works.htm)* 69–105)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Clay, J. S. 2003. _Hesiod's Cosmos_. Cambridge.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Crotty, K. 1982. *Song and Action: The Victory Odes of Pindar*. Baltimore.&#xD;&#xA;s&#xD;&#xA;Gantz, T. 1993. *Early Greek Myth: A Guide to Literary and Artistic Source*. Baltimore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kurke, L. 1991. *Traffic in Praise: Pindar and the Poetics of Social Economy*. Berkeley.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nicholson, N. 2005. *Aristocracy and Athletics in Archaic and Classical Greece*. Cambridge.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nilsson, N. *The Mycenaean Origin of Greek Mythology.* Berkeley." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10480" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1000" RevisionGUID="e31f302f-4637-45e1-80af-e0e069ac3568" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="[The excellent answer][1] by HDE mentions the Chinese dragon from 4700-2900BC, but did not explore further. This answer will attempt to source the claim for the Chinese dragon, which is arguably older and more complete than the Sumerian dragon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A photo of the dragon, made from clams embedded within sandstone, can be [found here][2]: &#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1987年在河南省濮陽縣西水坡仰韶文化遺址發現的用蚌殼堆積的龍形圖案，距今已有6000多年，被考古界譽為“中華第一龍”（2006年9月26日攝）。新華社&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The dragon-shaped artwork found in 1987 in Henan Province, Puyang District in the Yang Shao culture ruins is more than 6000 years old. Archaeologists have named it &quot;The First Chinese Dragon&quot;. Photo credit Xinhua, 2006 September 26. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The history of this dragon sculpture is described in greater detail [here][4]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1986年，境内出土的石磨盘、石磨棒、三足陶等裴李岗文化典型器物证明，七、八千年前这里已有人类活动。1987年，在濮阳西水坡发掘出三组蚌砌龙、虎图墓葬。据测定，其年代距今6400年左右，蚌壳龙被考古界公认为“中华第一龙”。&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In 1986, millstones, pestles, and pottery showed that the Fei Li Ridge culture has existed in Puyang since 7000-8000 years ago. In 1987, three groups of burial art depicting dragons and tigers were found in Xishuipo, Puyang. They were dated to 6400 years ago; the clamshell dragon was unanimously recognised by archaeologists as &quot;The First Chinese Dragon&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/976/501&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://hk.crntt.com/doc/1019/9/3/5/101993521_2.html?coluid=7&amp;kindid=0&amp;docid=101993521&amp;mdate=0129171341&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/TV8GK.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://cul.shangdu.com/hnwh/20110621/273_344681.shtml" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10481" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1061" RevisionGUID="dcfec0c4-924e-42bb-bfc4-6320ac006490" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="The main reason why it exists in the narrative is that it precedes the epic by quite a long time. Before the epic of Gilgamesh was put together as one single narrative, hymns of Gilgamesh were performed separately. These are the Sumerian predecessors of what's commonly read today. They can fortunately for us be easily found on the internet at [The Electronic Text Corpus of Sumerian Literature (ETCSL)](http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=c.1.8.1*).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you can see, there were several hymns in the Gilgamesh cycle, and the bull of Heaven is one of them. All of these except Gilgamesh and Aga were eventually incorporated into a single narrative. This seems to have happened first ca. 2000-1600 BCE. What's often translated and put into books, however, is a recension of this text made roughly a thousand years later. By that time, it would be too late to remove it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Historically, the scene has to be rather late overall. The original story was probably the hymn of [Gilgamesh and Aga](http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.1.8.1.1). Aga (also Akka) in the myths was the son of Enmebaragesi, king of Kish, whom we know now was actually a real person from inscriptions[1]. A plausible scenario for the development of Gilgamesh follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Enmebaragesi of Kish ruled over Sumer, and was succeeded by Aga, who was then conquered by Gilgamesh of Uruk, leading to Uruk's predominance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This could have (and would have) been ritually performed at Uruk, where Gilgamesh could then fade into legends. Furthermore, other myths would be attracted to it. First, the Humbaba quest likely originated with the Ur III dynasty.[2] Originally entirely separate from the Gilgamesh cycle, the story of Dumuzi and Inanna is well chronicled in the Sumerian literature. You can also read them at the [ETCSL](http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=c.1.4*). The older view, established by Frazer, was to see Dumuzi was a dying and rising fertility god, but as JoAnn Scurlock points out, the evidence for that is very weak.[3] Instead, he appears to:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; embrace [the onerous duties of kingship], and to suffer the ultimate penalty for failure.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If this reading is correct, it explains why Dumuzi, lover of Inanna (later Ishtar) became the predecessor of Gilgamesh (and defeater of Enmebaragesi), itself evidenced by the unusual name appearing as a doublet (he's distinguished in the sources, but it's clear it was one name that became two).[5] Dumuzi would be the example of a king failing at his duties, while Gilgamesh would have been a good king (the part about Gilgamesh being a bad king in the beginning is missing in the Sumerian hymns and is presumably a later addition).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ritually, it appears that there was a differentiation of some sort between Dumuzi and Gilgamesh. The Inanna/Dumuzi relationship looks similar to other goddess/dead mortal ones. Beyond them, we have Adonis and Aphrodite (Adonis actually comes from the Semitic root _adon_ which means &quot;lord&quot;, and was a title for Tammuz, the Babylonian version of Dumuzi; Aphrodite has similar myths to Inanna/Ishtar, e.g. she's insulted by Diomedes in the _Iliad_ and reacts suspiciously similar to Ishtar when she's insulted by Gilgamesh, i.e. going up to heaven and crying to her parents; [Homer, _Iliad_, 5.297–430](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad5.htm#_Toc239244903)), Cybele and Attis, and perhaps too Aphrodite and Paris.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These couples mean something—though what exactly it's difficult to say—about the function of kingship in ancient Sumer and Babylon. The king was also the chief priest, and there seems to be some sort of relationship between the king and the goddess, as you can see from my post on [Shulgi and Inanna](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/962/are-there-kali-types-deities-in-other-pantheons/965#965).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At this point we can only speculate, but perhaps Gilgamesh's rejection of her is tied to a religious dispute or a political dispute? If there is any truth about Gilgamesh's involvement in the building of the temple of Ninlil as recorded in the [Tummal inscription](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tummal_Inscription), then there might have been rivalry between worshipers of Ninlil and Inanna that played out in Gilgamesh's favoring of the former over the latter. It's difficult to say for sure, and of course, all this is not only hypothetical, but also likely to remain unanswerable.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Interestingly, Homer in the [Iliadic parallel](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad5.htm#_Toc239244903), used it for polemic against the claims of Aphrodite as a warrior goddess, since Zeus chides her for trying to engage in combat. We know that in Cyprus, where there was a strong Phoenician population, Aphrodite *was* dressed in warrior garb. I think there's something there.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Aphrodite in warrior garb. Mosaic, found in Paphos, Cyprus][6]][7]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Aphrodite in warrior garb. Mosaic, found in Paphos, Cyprus)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Narratologically, the inclusion of the scene makes sense for the overall story, and in fact is one of the more important parts. One of the important themes of the work as a whole is the acceptance of death for mortals. Recall that the original impetus for the slaying of Humbaba is for eternal glory: &quot;I will establish for ever a name eternal!&quot; ([Y 187](https://books.google.com/books?id=eCZRK_61adMC&amp;pg=PA20), trans. Andrew George). In order for Gilgamesh to really seek out immortality (almost always denied to mortals, with Ziusudra being the one exception), he must gain a reason for wanting it. This is accomplished in the death of his friend, Enkidu. And who else, except Inanna, who already was responsible for the death of Dumuzi, would be implicated? The association between the two would be even stronger since there are hints of immortality in the Dumuzi hymns.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus this scene provides that pivotal climax which leads him to seek out immortality and ultimately the acceptance of his fate, since it is Enkidu from the Netherworld he sees.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=bCn5-COYETwC&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.com/books?id=cxjuHTH6I2sC&amp;pg=PA78&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://books.google.com/books?id=9UeVAQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA161&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://books.google.com/books?id=9UeVAQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA172&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://books.google.com/books?id=5gUNVtrlr28C&amp;pg=PA102&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/8l9hj.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.flickr.com/photos/j-fish/galleries/72157632964336921/&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;General Bibliography&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jean-Jacques Glassner and Benhamin R. Foster (ed.), [_Mesopotamian Chronicles_](https://books.google.com/books?id=5gUNVtrlr28C), Brill: 2005.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dina Katz, [_Gilgamesh and Akka_](https://books.google.com/books?id=bCn5-COYETwC), Brill: 1993.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;JoAnn Scurlock, &quot;[Images of Tammuz: The Intersection of Death, Divinity, and Royal Authority in Ancient Mesopotamia](https://books.google.com/books?id=9UeVAQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA151),&quot; pp. 151–182 in _Experiencing Power, Generating Authority: Cosmos, Politics, and the Ideology of Kingship in Ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia_, ed. by Jane A. Hill et al. University of Pennsylvania Press: 2013.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jeffrey H. Tigay, [_The Evolution of the Gilgamesh Epic_](https://books.google.com/books?id=cxjuHTH6I2sC), University of Pennsylvania Press: 1982." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10482" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1062" RevisionGUID="701f8518-70f4-4767-81a2-d289bf1079b8" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="Well, this assumes that Campbell is accurate! [Campbell is playing fast, loose, and vague with the evidence][1], but that's a different story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ancients as far as I am aware did not recognize Campbell's &quot;monomyth.&quot; They did, however, recognize a few things. First, at least with Mediterranean and Near Eastern cultures, they all engaged in a process of _interpretatio_, through which various heroes and deities were seen as the same. Heracles was Melqart, though the Greeks called both &quot;Heracles&quot;, one &quot;Tyrian&quot; and the other &quot;Greek.&quot; (Herodotus, [2.43–45][2], Cicero, _De Natura Deorum_, [3.43][3])This was very common.[4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another process common especially during the Hellenistic era was something called &quot;Euhemerism,&quot; named after Euhemerus, a Greek philosopher who thought e.g. the gods were once kings and mighty men who subsequently were worshiped as gods. This presumes an interpretation of similarities, though not of journeys, but of kingship.[5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does this answer your question?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/1232/62&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hh/hh2040.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Cicero/de_Natura_Deorum/3A*.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://books.google.com/books?id=Q1xbAgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA138&amp;dq=interpretatio+mediterranean&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0CDcQ6AEwBGoVChMIyMCo5q-rxwIVAVYeCh0d4AA-#v=onepage&amp;q=interpretatio%20mediterranean&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://books.google.com/books?id=OWS8TUTWLvAC&amp;pg=PA123" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10484" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1105" RevisionGUID="a4aa2a8f-e15f-4e5d-b80d-2e5e0853726d" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="In this case, Western culture is the outlier. As [Simon explained in the comments][1], serpents feature prominently in many non-western mythologies:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Australia the Aboriginals believe that a Rainbow Serpent created the landscape, embodied the spirit of the fresh water and punished lawbreakers. In Cambodian Mythology, they believe the Khmer People to have been born out of union of Indian and Nagas or Serpents. For Hindus it represents rebirth due to the casting off of it's skin and being 'reborn'. Search for Nāgas for more Hindu myths, they feature prominently in several myths. Koreans fear the snake and worship it as a god. In Mesoamerica we have Quetzalcoatl who was a 'feathered serpent' patron of arts, crafts and merchants.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is this? To answer that question, I'm going to take a look at the epic of Gilgamesh, which is from a similar region as the bible. Here's a description of a snake from the epic:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'This plant, Ur-shanabi, is the &quot;Plant of Heartbeat&quot;,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; with it a man can regain his vigour.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; To Uruk-the-Sheepfold 1 will take it,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; to an ancient will feed some and put the plant to the test! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'Its name shall be &quot;Old Man Grown Young&quot;,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; I will eat it myself, and be again as I was in my youth!'   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; At twenty leagues they broke bread,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; at thirty leagues they stopped for the night.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gilgamesh found a pool whose water was cool,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; down he went into it, to bathe in the water.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Of the plant's fragrance a snake caught scent,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; came up [in silence], and bore the plant off.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As it turned away it sloughed its skin.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Gilgamesh sat down and wept, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Epic of Gilgamesh][2])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To summarize: Gilgamesh has a plant that grants him immortality, but the plant is taken from him by a snake. The snake then becomes immortal, as snakes can &quot;shed their skin&quot; and thus be reborn. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm not trying to suggest that Gilgamesh is a precursor to the bible, or that Gilgamesh represents every other myth that features serpents, but it is illuminating as an example of how other cultures viewed serpents. It's clear from the epic of Gilgamesh that snakes are strongly associated with rebirth, immortality, and life. I hope that goes some way towards explaining why serpents aren't portrayed as &quot;evil&quot; in other cultures.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1099/why-do-several-myths-portray-snakes-as-good-things#comment3687_1099&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.cidmod.org/sidurisadvice/Gilgamesh.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10485" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1140" RevisionGUID="01d73989-6a93-4e48-a6c3-09a6d0663886" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="The myth of Pandora is basically the story of a woman who is given a [box][1] by the gods, and told not to open it. Of course, she opens the box, and evil is released to the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it possible that the box represents a womb? I think that makes a lot of sense, because it's a cavity with an opening, and things come out of it (that were never seen on earth before). The myth also is a commentary on gender, because it's a woman who releases evil to the world, and Pandora's husband is at fault only because he is stupid enough to marry her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1125/why-is-it-that-we-say-pandoras-box-so-often-even-thought-it-was-a-jar" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10486" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1173" RevisionGUID="39cecc7b-fcc0-4ec9-9b4c-685a71e39883" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="I was reading [Why 7?](https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/106582/harry-potter-why-7) on SFF, and it got me thinking. I know that there are plenty of occurrences of the number 7 (see for example [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven)), some for quite a long time, for example the seven deadly sins of Christianity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In popular (western) culture, it is the number the most often associated to some supernatural power. There is a question here [on the importance attached to 7 in mythology and religion](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/622/why-is-7-important-in-mythology-and-religion).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What I'm interested in, is why is the number seven so common in mythology? Is there a reason why many different cultures, religions, and folklore put a high importance in the number seven?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Though related, the other question [Why is 7 important in mythology and religion?](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/622/why-is-7-important-in-mythology-and-religion) focuses on the meaning of the 7, whereas I am more interested in the origin of its importance and occurrence." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10487" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1249" RevisionGUID="5671396a-09df-4aab-94c3-5567e7ea54cf" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="&gt;I have heard that classicists dispute that his account of the myths is valid&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yes. In this case you can trust the wikipedia page, because it extensively cites its sources.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this case, I think that the Wikipedia author understates the degree of inaccuracy of Robert Graves' work. [One review of the book rips apart essentially every aspect of Grave's scholarship][1], and all of the reviews I have found that aren't extremely old (i.e. from the 1950s) all agree that Graves' work isn't useful as a scholarly account of Greek mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Are Graves' myths mythologically valid in these senses? What purposes could they be used for?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you are looking for an accurate depiction of Greek Mythology, I would stay as far away from Graves' book as possible. [There are plenty of other sources that depict Greek mythology accurately][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there is value in Graves' work, but only if you treat it as a fictional account of Greek mythology. Most critics seem to agree that Graves' works are beautifully written; [one source claims][3] that &quot;some of the most beautiful poems of our time&quot; come from Graves' work. [Another source][3] describes Graves as having &quot;fashioned a modern  myth  out of ancient material.&quot; To me, it sounds like Graves' works have value as a fictional mythology (like Tolkien's Silmarillion), and not as an accurate portrayal of Greek myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Disclaimer: I haven't actually read anything written by Robert Graves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/704652&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/1133/62&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/1396557" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10488" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1258" RevisionGUID="2789d51d-917e-4e36-aed7-9a0e17fd4229" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="In [this answer](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/1256/183), Hamlet quotes [this page](http://www.maicar.com/GML/IslesBlest.html):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and Cronos rules over them; for the father of men and gods released him from his bonds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is safe to assume that the &quot;father of men and gods&quot; is Zeus, as he was the king of the gods of Olympus. However, it seems strange that Cronos would be released, given the crimes he committed and his overthrow in the Titanomachy. Additionally, other Titans were punished, but it doesn't seem as if they were ever released.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why did Zeus release Cronos?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10489" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1262" RevisionGUID="64b885de-7455-4cac-b9d8-6a0621ac2bc4" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="I'm currently attempting to research how often a specific type of story (i.e. a motif) occurs in the global corpus of folklore (mythology). For instance, I might be interested in [whether there are examples of powerful figures loosing an eye (other than Odin)][1]. I might also be interested in [whether deities similar to Kali exist in other cultures][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How can I answer these kinds of questions? I obviously don't have time to go read every bit of folklore from every culture in the world. Is there some sort of index, e.g. a [TVTropes][3] for folklore, that I could use?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/853/are-there-any-other-gods-that-permanently-lost-an-eye-other-than-odin&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/962/62&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://tvtropes.org/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10490" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1327" RevisionGUID="67f19428-b538-4900-95c8-1d11f668b304" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="In a *AHEM* [certain series][1] *AHEM*, it states that Theseus did not rely on the string of Princess Ariadne; rather, he used the vision of a mortal who could see through the Mist, a certain force that made mortals not able to see stuff that actually happened, like a monster would appear as a dog or something.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Well, is that authentic? Did he use Ariadne or the magic string?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/239/which-greek-deities-do-not-have-an-equivalent-in-the-roman-pantheon-and-vice-v/1323?noredirect=1#comment4183_1323" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10491" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1341" RevisionGUID="222aa49d-c487-4b8f-bba3-e6e9c45a9e3c" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="While poking around at this question:  https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1331/symbolism-behind-hepheastus-riding-a-donkey&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A common detail in the art struck me, and as a result, I learned a cool new word:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Ithyphallic: having an erect penis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the fellows accompanying Hephaestus are Satyrs, which are almost always depicted ithyphallically, no mystery there.  But why (if you'll pardon the mild crudeness) is the mule packing so much wood?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even when his retinue are portrayed more modestly, the horse's phallus still seems to often be erect and prominent (examples 3, 4 and 5).  The first example below is the [François Vase](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Vase), and it portrays many horses, and Hephaestus's is the only one which is ithyphallic, as far as I can tell.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;1 - From the [François Vase](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Vase)  &#xD;&#xA;[![Hephaestus's return, François Vase][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;2 -  &#xD;&#xA;[![!\[Another example][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;3 -  &#xD;&#xA;[![!\[enter image description here][3]][3]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;4 -  &#xD;&#xA;[![!\[enter image description here][4]][4]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;5 -  &#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][5]][5]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems like this is a pretty standard element of the depiction of this story.  So why is it typical for Hephaestus's mule to have an erect phallus?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/W327g.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/oePUI.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/wAXpy.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ITEga.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/S6FQW.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10492" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1359" RevisionGUID="3e263d6e-18de-40a6-8d4b-bd4368f2c402" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="I was researching the question [What demons/fabulous creatures did the Sumerians mention?](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/1107/57) when I stumbled upon the she-demon pasittu: &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Mankind Punished**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [iii.45] Enki made ready to speak,&#xD;&#xA;and said to Nintu the birth goddess:&#xD;&#xA;&quot;You, birth goddess, creatress of destinies,&#xD;&#xA;establish death for all peoples!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [iii.d1] &quot;Now then, let there be a third woman among the people,&#xD;&#xA;among the people are the woman who has borne&#xD;&#xA;and the woman who has not borne.&#xD;&#xA;Let there be also among the people the pasittu (she-demon):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [iii.d5] let her snatch the baby from the lap who bore it.&#xD;&#xA;And etablish high priestesses and priestesses,&#xD;&#xA;let them be taboo [celibate], and so cut down childbirth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Epic of Atrahasis](http://www.livius.org/as-at/atrahasis/atrahasis.html#Mankind_Punished)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is pasittu mentioned elsewhere in Akkadian poetry? Is she related to the other child-snatching demoness, Lamashtu?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10493" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1385" RevisionGUID="73f4495c-f1ce-49da-8b95-5e4e0e468c00" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="In the question [How to search for patterns/motifs in folklore or mythology](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/1262/62), I introduced the concept of motifs/tale-types, which are essentially the folkloristic equivalent of tropes (an example of a motif/tale-type is &quot;man steals fire from gods&quot;).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have a followup question. As folklore/stories are transmitted through time and space (e.g. one community shares a story with another community), I think it's safe to assume that some changes will take place. For example, if a community that believes in dragons shares a story with another community that doesn't believe in dragons, it's possible that the last community might alter the story to replace a dragon with a gigantic squid. The point I'm trying to make is that the unit of motifs/tale-types seems flawed, because the unit of a motif only works if folklore remains constant as it transmits from culture to culture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a concept that would allow a folklorist to capture how folklore/stories change from place to place (and from time to time)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10494" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1412" RevisionGUID="7fc606e1-0f20-462e-a704-61de1571554d" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="In [their answer](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/1391/57) to my question about [Odin and Loki being blood brothers](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/1383/57), chaimedes quotes a footnote in Henry Adams Bellows' translation of the Poetic Edda that claims Odin and Loki were &quot;often allied in enterprises&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  9\. There exists no account of any incident in which Othin and Loki thus swore blood-brotherhood, but they were so often allied in enterprises that the idea is wholly reasonable. The common process of &quot;mingling blood&quot; was carried out quite literally, and the promise of -which Loki speaks is characteristic of those which, in the sagas, often accompanied the ceremony; cf. Brot af Sigurtharkvithu, 18 and note.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Poetic Edda, by Henry Adams Bellows, p.156](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe10.htm#page_155)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I did find a mention to such an enterprise in the Lokasenna: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 50\. &quot;Though on rocks the gods bind me | with bowels torn  &#xD;&#xA;Forth from my frost-cold son,  &#xD;&#xA;I was first and last | at the deadly fight  &#xD;&#xA;There where Thjazi we caught.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Poetic Edda/Lokasenna](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda/Lokasenna), [Wikisource](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikisource)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More details on Thjazi's story can be found in the Skáldskaparmál, which starts with Odin, Loki and Hœnir setting on a journey together.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One adventure, however, is certainly not enough to support Bellows' claim. What other adventures did Odin and Loki share, as allies?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10495" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1489" RevisionGUID="c95f7019-c172-4d8d-8514-39330d8b55e2" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="&gt; It has long been a popular fantasy among amateur students of myth that all peoples share the same stories. This is clearly an example of wishful thinking.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Alan Dundes][1])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Folklorists have developed these tools called [Motif Indexes][2]. I'm not quite sure what you mean by &quot;non human creature&quot;, but creatures like phoenix have entries in the index. A motif index would then list every culture that contains a myth/story about phoenix. **The key here is that there isn't a single example that we can point to where the motif is universal**, i.e. it is present in the stories of every culture known to mankind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So no, there isn't an example of a &quot;non human creature&quot; that &quot;appears universally or nearly universally across many cultures myths.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you're interested in the similarities and differences between the stories of different cultures, then I would recommend that you learn more about [motif indexes][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/4137664&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/1262/62" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10496" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1551" RevisionGUID="bab1f297-5754-4439-9a92-7b722ec9f343" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="It was a change that happened in the [Greek mythos transfer.][1] Satyr's were adapted into fauns.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/110/967" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10497" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1583" RevisionGUID="e909fae9-95f5-4ce9-bdc9-9351dd20aa8c" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="What's an ancient story that's a good example for the plot structure of the monomyth, meaning most of the stations are there?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In my youth I read the popular classical greek myths as well as a few german (Grimms fairytales, Nibelungenlied) and norse sagas, and quite a few variations of the king Arthur stories. Either I forgot that some of them followed the monomyth plot structure, or none do, or I'm really bad at spotting plot structures. Supposedly the monomyth is everywhere, but the oldest example that comes to my mind is The Hobbit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've looked at [wikipedia][1] and [these][2] [two][2] tvtropes pages, but the only examples mentioned where the bible (Jesus and Moses) and the life of Buddha. I'm interested in examples that are not (yawnsome) religious scripture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what is a good, pre-modern example of the monomyth in action? Which story follows the plot structure most closely?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;p.s.: Why do I want to know? I want to read a good and hopefully entertaining 'ur-example' and see for myself if I spot the stages and structure. I'm not interested in reading long scholarly works about mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Edit to add: This question was tagged as duplicate of this: [Why, according to Joseph Campbell, is the monomyth so common?][3]. I asked for a good ur-example. The supposedly duplicate question contained no examples (though the section on the myths that are *not* universal in one answer was quite interesting).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth#See_also&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/TheHeroWithAThousandFaces&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/82/why-according-to-joseph-campbell-is-the-monomyth-so-common" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10498" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1587" RevisionGUID="8da692c9-c8b3-4c72-b3e6-7e03f388337e" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="The word &quot;node&quot; is not (as far as I know) used in the study of literature/folklore/mythology. What I think the Wikipedia article is trying to refer to is the idea that the Calydonian Boar story features a gathering of many *characters* in Greek mythology come together.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The academic word for this concept would probably be an [epic catalogue][1]. The phrase epic catalogue refers to the poetic device of making really long lists of things, e.g. a list of characters. I talk a little bit more about epic catalogues in the Stack Exchange question I linked to above.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/545/62" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10499" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1594" RevisionGUID="64d95ac9-58d2-4875-94a6-389dec8521ba" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="After reading and answering [this question][1], it caused me to believe that in Greek mythology, there were a lot of nymphs. They were nature spirits, and so, there are a lot of *types* of nymphs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cloud - Nephelai (Cloud-Nymphs)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Grass - Leimonides (Pasture Nymphs)&lt;sub&gt;(Close enough to grass)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Flower - Anthousai (Flower Nymphs)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All from [here][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what other nymphs were there?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1544/was-charybdis-always-a-monster&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/Okeanides.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10500" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1624" RevisionGUID="2cc7d847-d6bc-444f-8637-797b744e0c74" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="I would take a look at the field of folkloristics/folklore studies. This branch of academia is very concerned with the comparative method (i.e. comparisons between cultures), and they've done extensive studies of parallels in the stories of different cultures. One example of this: folklorists are the people who create [motive indexes][1], which are essentially extensive lists of parallels between the stories of different cultures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of what to read: any book by Alan Dundes is a good bet ([you probably will be able to find one of his books in a local library][2]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm sure you've been told to read something by Joseph Campbell (or someone similar). Feel free to read his books -- they're entertaining and interesting -- but [they have a some serious problems][3] and should be taken with a grain of salt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/1262/62&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=au%3Aalan%20dundes&amp;qt=advanced&amp;dblist=638&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://taxicrash.github.io/2014/12/30/monomyth-incorrect-dangerous/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10501" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1646" RevisionGUID="e5c67cee-1325-473c-bfed-3c8efa984780" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="They lived on [Mount Olympus][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From answer linked.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **[205]** *O magne **Olympi rector** et mundi arbiter,*  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Jam statue tandem gravibus aerumnis modum*&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [O mighty ruler of **Olympus**, judge of all the world,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; set now at length a limit to our crushing cares, an end to our disasters.](http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaHerculesFurens.html)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That was from a play, in which it states that Olympus is where all of the Roman gods lived.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So Mars lived on Mount Olympus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/742/967" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10502" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1701" RevisionGUID="8b16cea7-08b8-42a7-9910-7cb38787708e" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="One of the most well-known features of Hindu time-scales is the cycle of four Yugas, known as Satya, Treta, Dwapara, and Kali.  In the Satya (aka Krita) Yuga, almost all humans are good.  In the Treta Yuga, most humans are good but some are bad.  It's during one of the past Treta Yugas that the Hindu epic the Ramayana took place.  In the Dwapara Yuga, most humans are bad but some are good.  The Hindu epic the Mahabharata took place in the most recent  Dwapara Yuga.  And finally, we have the Kali Yuga, the age of evil we're currently living in, where almost all humans are bad.  The present Kali Yuga will end when Kalki, whom I discuss [here](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/684/14), comes and annihilates the evil people, and then the Satya Yuga will begin again.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now many cultures and ideologies idolize an imagined past in order to explain or criticize the world of the present.  So my question is, have any Indologists theorized that the Kali Yuga was invented in the Kali Yuga?  That is to say, have they theorized that the system of the four Yugas was invented at a certain point in time, that that point in time was declared to be part of the &quot;Kali Yuga&quot;, and Hindus have been considering themselves to be in the Kali Yuga ever since?  Or is the consensus of Indologists that there was a time in history when Hindus considered themselves to be living in some Yuga other than the Kali Yuga?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have come across Indologists who have advanced a slightly less bold thesis.  Most Hindu scriptures, including the Mahabharata and the Puranas, are believed to have been composed in the Dwapara Yuga.  So their discussion of the Kali Yuga take the form of prophecy, describing things like the mixing of castes, the abandoning of Vedic Dharma, and the invasion of India by Mlecchas or foreigners.  I have seen Indologists argue that such descriptions are not actual prophecies, but rather &quot;retroactive prophecies&quot; written by people who were describing the actual state of the society they were living in, and the faults they found with it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But have any Indologists gone one step further, and said that the very concept of the Kali Yuga was invented by people to diagnose why their society fell short of the ideas of Vedic society?  I suppose one piece of evidence they could use is that the Yuga system is seldom mentioned in the Vedas, and is mainly mentioned in later texts like the Puranas.  And also there is a verse, widely believed to be spurious, in the Brahma Vaivarta Purana which says certain Vedic practices like animal sacrifice and Niyoga (which I discuss [here](https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/a/7628/36)) were allowed in earlier Yugas but are prohibited in the Kali Yuga.  This could be seen as an indication that people were accustomed to using the concept of Yugas to relegate aspects of Hinduism they didn't like to an earlier age whose customs are presumed no longer relevant to the world as it is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that I am a devout Hindu and a strong believer in the Yuga system; I'm just posting this question because I'm curious as to what secular scholarship has to say on this subject.  I'm a [Hinduism Stackexchange](http://hinduism.stackexchange.com) moderator, but I'm posting the question here because I don't want people there mistakenly thinking that I'm casting doubt on the Yuga system." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10503" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1702" RevisionGUID="206d7238-ebb9-4b05-86ba-f9f19eef7855" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="There have been a few questions about the [meaning of various welsh triads on this site][1]. However, I'm curious about how these triads were used by the Welsh. Were the triads similar to a collection of proverbs that would be referenced in daily life? Or were they, [as wikipedia suggests][2], solely used as a mnemonic device to remember longer versions of stories?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Just to clarify: it's less that I don't trust wikipedia (although I have a hard time believing that the triads were *solely* used as a mnemonic device), and more that I would like an answer that goes into a little bit more detail (the wikipedia only had one sentence about this topic).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/welsh-triads&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Triads" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10504" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1706" RevisionGUID="6499c120-7e9d-4732-bf0f-44b0419a0f92" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="This is a follow-up to this question:  https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1681/why-was-dissection-taboo-in-greek-antiquity&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With such strong taboos against it (addressed in the above question), how was Herophilos able to perform systematic, scientific dissections of human cadavers?  What changed in Greek society to allow this to occur?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10505" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1768" RevisionGUID="7819950a-13e9-4246-80c7-d475764d0eb2" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="How could they be related ? Anakim just means &quot;*sons of Anak*&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;It is just a race of giants, and there is nothing giving them godlike power or something.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anunnaki, as I explained in [another post][1], means sons of An. While the terminology is the same, there is nothing in common between those 2 words.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;EDIT : The sumerian language is apparently an language isolate. So it is just a coincidence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More than that, in the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, an hypothesis linked this word with a [goddess from the eastern cultural block][2], but it is not linked to a semitic deity. Still, I don't see any link with the sumerian gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/311/what-is-the-difference-between-igigi-and-anunnaki-deities/1739#1739&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.studylight.org/encyclopedias/isb/view.cgi?n=499." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10506" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1773" RevisionGUID="be2c2bc9-3add-4532-83f9-52d35e3f2901" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="[On this question][1], I and another poster claim on the basis of internet sources that Ganymede was Zeus' male lover. A commenter challenged that, however, and I haven't yet found a reliable source to say that he was. So what is the earliest source to make that claim?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/7/did-zeus-have-any-male-lovers" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10507" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1786" RevisionGUID="8f00b8ac-0929-4b24-b11e-f4dbf97ab358" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="I gave an [answer][1] on this subject;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They held the corners of the earth originally, before Atlas did. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are no primary sources from Theoi about his subject, which means, that, there are none.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They give a little about its origin...&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The cosmic story of five Titanes--four holding the corners of heaven--may be **Phoenician** in origin. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The six Titans, 4 directions + 1 ocean + 1 time,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Hyperion in the west, Iapetos (Iapetus) in the east, Koios (Coeus) in the north and Krios (Crius) in the south. The fifth Kronos (Cronus, Time) stood in the centre, and the sixth, Okeanos (Oceanus), circled the world in the form of the river Ocean.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**But the fact remains, that, there are no sources for you.** :(&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/1226/967" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10508" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1795" RevisionGUID="d68b6ec4-8234-47f8-9a25-43b8dc7fe930" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="Maybe he actually did.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hypothesis 1. The Dwarven Arts** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to *The Unmanly Man: Concepts of Sexual Defamation in Early Northern Society*, Preben Meulengracht Sørensen is convinced, for some reason, that Loki's milkmaid service &quot;must certainly be taken to mean that Loki served as mistress to giants or trolls,&quot; which he qualifies by adding that the &quot;sexuality [of giants and trolls] was considered gross and unbridled&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is, however, a different group associated with dwelling underground just as much as if not more so than giants or trolls, and that is the dwarves, particularly those of Svartálfaheim (&quot;Black-Elf World/Home&quot;). This seems to be the realm to which, in Skáldskaparmál 35, Loki ventures with a mission to get a collective of artisans called &quot;Ívaldi's Sons&quot; to make new hair for Þórr's [Thor's] wife Sif. With no further explanation, this portion of the Eddas tells us that the artisans made the hair and, seemingly off the cuff, threw in two extra items: Skíðblaðnir, a magic ship which could be folded up and placed in one's pocket like a handkerchief, and which was gifted to the god Freyr; and the magic spear Gungnir, which eventually belonged to Óðinn [Odin].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In circumstances otherwise unexplained, Loki then made a life-and-death wager with a different (rival?) family of dwarf artisans, inducing them to make a few other magic gifts for his fellow deities. This second group of dwarves ended up making, among a few other items, Þórr's famous magic hammer Mjöllnir. In this instance the artisans have clear motivation for this work but it's always puzzled me that there is no explanation ever offered (as far as I'm aware) for why Ívaldi's Sons help Loki at all and go a couple of extra miles in the process, with no apparent word of gratitude towards them. Were they on the Æsir's retainer or something? For them to be so gracious about receiving nothing at all for their labour is completely out of character for dwarves (or for that matter just about every other major ethnic group) in this mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On a later occasion the giant king Þrym [Thrym] somehow managed to steal Mjöllnir from Þórr and then demanded to be given the hand of Freyr's twin, the beautiful goddess Freyja, in marriage. To trick him, Þórr and Loki were compelled to dress in drag in order to impersonate Freyja and her handmaiden respectively, by which ruse they were able to retrieve the magic hammer and slaughter Þrym and his entire family.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A standard part of Þórr's disguise in this instance had to be Freyja's famously bedazzling torc [a type of choker] called Brísingamen. According to *Sörla þáttr eða Heðins saga ok Högna*, Freyja once bought a golden necklace from a group of four dwarves who refused monetary payment. Instead they demanded that she lie with each of them for one night, which terms were accepted. *Sörla þáttr* does not say that this necklace is actually the same as Brísingamen nor does it say anything about the dwarves being a group of brothers called the Brísingar, but both these features are popular modern interpretations, as attested by Jimmy Joe's website [TimelessMyths](https://www.timelessmyths.com/norse/beings.html#Brisings) and Ingrid Halvorsen's website [Sunnyway](http://www.sunnyway.com/runes/gods.html#B), perhaps inspired by Roger Lancelyn Green's book *Myths of the Norsemen*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Skáldskaparmál offers no further detail regarding Ívaldi's Sons apart from saying that they are dwarves while at the same time suggesting that they are also Svartálfar, &quot;Black Elves.&quot; Again, perhaps taking a cue from Green, Joe numbers these &quot;sons&quot; as four. The reason that Green might do so is to identify the four &quot;Brísingar&quot; with Ívaldi's Sons, whom he calls &quot;Black Dwarfs&quot; in a bid to explain why these dwarves have their operations base in Elf-World.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To add my own speculations to those of Sørensen, Green, Joe and Halvorsen, my suggestion here would be that the mission into Giantland undertaken by Þórr and Loki may not have been the first time that Loki disguised himself as a woman associated with Freyja in order to acquire an item for the gods. Earlier in the same story it is Loki who discovers that Þrym has stolen Mjöllnir. He does this by reconnoitering in the form of a falcon. He is able to take this form because of a magic cloak of feathers owned by Freyja, which garment Loki borrows for this purpose. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It stands to reason that there's a missing story here regarding how Ívaldi's Sons came to owe Loki a favour. Perchance this time he didn't borrow clothing from Freyja or pretend to be her servant but actually borrowed her own form and performed a similar service towards the artisans in Svartálfaheim that Freyja would perhaps earlier have done in relation to the four dwarves who made her golden neck-piece, if *Sörla þáttr* is to be believed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On other hand, these dwarves might be Loki's sons with Ívaldi as the father. Throughout the Eddas, [elves and Æsir are cited in close association with each other](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/1745/2682) [see under &quot;Norsemen: The Svartálfar&quot; in link]. The connection between the elves and these dwarves could thus be explained on account of their mother being an Ás [masculine singular of *Æsir*], the same Ás who gave birth, in the form of a mare, to Óðinn's magic horse Sleipnir. It would flow well in hand with Loki's irony and wackiness that he is a giant who becomes the parent of a collective of dwarves who create weaponry for the giants' traditional enemy the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hypothesis 2. The Unweeping Giantess** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Speaking of Loki's offspring, he has a famous daughter, a giant goddess named Hel, or Hela, to whom Óðinn, in the Prose Edda, inexplicably gives apparently absolute authority over anyone who does not die in battle. These dead are sent to the land of perpetual cold, ice, snow and darkness at the northern end of the universe, over which realm Hel has control. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Óðinn soon comes to regret the decision because his beautiful son Balder, the universe's most favourite person, is not long afterwards killed through Loki's treachery, and he naturally goes to Hel. The Æsir must then petition Hel to release Balder (apparently to resurrect) if they wish to see him before they all die at the end of the world. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hel is willing to break the rules and allow this on condition that every single person and object in the universe, dead or alive, weeps for the slain young Ás. If even one thing fails to do so, Balder will only be restored after the Ragnarök, as prophecy says. With that, accoring to the Gylfaginning, &quot;the Æsir sent over all the world messengers to beg for Balder to be wept out of Hel; and all people did this, and living things, and the earth, and stones, and trees, and all metals&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Presumably even all the giants of Giantland participated as did Hel herself. However, in a certain cave somewhere there sat one giantess, poignantly named Þökk [Thok, &quot;Thanks&quot;], and she said that she had no love for Balder, calling him &quot;the churl's son&quot; and scoffing that Hel can keep him. This giantess, says the Gylfaginning, is suspected to have been Loki in disguise, which would make sense since Loki is the only person who hated Balder. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Immediately following this account is the story of Loki hiding in a mountain waterfall in the form of a salmon before being captured and subjected to some innovative and permanent torture methods by his fellow deities. After that is a description of the Ragnarök. The flytings in *Lokasenna* take place sometime after the messengers' encounter with Þökk and immediately before Loki's escape to the waterfall shortly prior to his final binding. If Þökk really is a cypher for Loki, perhaps [s]he was under such an incredible amount of pressure, as the only being in the entire universe refusing to facilitate the restoration of the world's most [well-]wanted man, that [s]he may indeed have needed to go literally underground. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And, as Loki's previous (mis)adventures have shown, there are certain things he is quite able (if not also quite willing) to do in a bind. Perhaps at the opening of *Lokasenna* eight years have elapsed since the first appearance of Þökk, who has been in hiding in a subterraneous cave in the company of giants or some other creatures, milking their cattle. And doing other things that Loki might do in order to keep up a disguise. This would require that Óðinn and Njörð already know somehow about Þökk-Loki's escapade. With Óðinn's two surveillance ravens, however, this would not be an especially difficult task.             " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10509" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1799" RevisionGUID="f9893c20-7b6e-4777-ba48-6b19c1d81405" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="TLDR Did Senet have any mythological origin? If so, what?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For this [answer][4] that Fey Ray gives&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[![enter image description here][1]][1][![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;***I'M GONNA SAY SENET***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; The games that kids played included a game like checkers as well as Senet and their game pieces were made of small stones and knucklebones (which were really sheep ankle bones). They played a game something like ‘jacks’ and dice with these various game pieces. Kids also had toys to play with including clay rattles that were shaped like animals or people. The wealthy families had toys for their kids made out of wood. These included wooden toys that had moving parts. One might be a hippopotamus that had jaws that would close and open. The higher end dolls were made up of cloth and they were stuffed using papyrus reeds.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Ancient Egyptian Games][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He describes Senet, a game like checkers... and I was wondering if there were any myths to describe it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/veXD0.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/BcUVI.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.historyforkids.net/ancient-egyptian-games.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/1748/967" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10510" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1817" RevisionGUID="f7631f32-b247-43e1-b595-f525e4e9f845" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="So in Yannis' Awesome [Answer][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;It was looking directly into Medusa's eyes that would turn a mortal to stone, not the whole of her face. Using the shield as a mirror meant that even if Medusa's gaze fell upon Perseus, it would be at an angle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what if it was, say, a lens that turned it at a 180 degree turn? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/258/967" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10511" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1846" RevisionGUID="441192e0-0c49-4637-ab5a-0981bde92ed0" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="You probably have heard about stories about dying-and-rising gods, like Inanna and Dumuzi and Aphrodite and Adonis. Some examples are also given in [this question](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1531/which-mythic-heroes-returned-in-the-spring). Fundamentally,they represent fertility and the seasons. Are there any Asian variants of dying-and-rising gods as well?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10512" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1957" RevisionGUID="88354017-5fc2-45fe-af7a-228c69c077cd" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="So I was playing The Binding of Isaac the other day, and there's this character called Lilith.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now I have good reason to believe that this is mythological. For one thing, all of the characters are part of the Bible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Azazel][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Isaac&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Samson&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Magdalene&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and others...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So who is Lilith?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/605/in-leviticus-who-or-what-is-azazel" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10514" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1986" RevisionGUID="f5b937dc-6949-43fb-9ff3-0b7a25d19295" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="[Greek gods were on Olympus.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the top of my head, I can also name some more, like the Muses and Ganymede, but, are there other people who lived on Mount Olympus?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/511/why-were-the-greek-gods-on-olympus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10515" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1996" RevisionGUID="5bf42eaa-a249-4183-98b8-7eb706473cea" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="[Apollo is Apollo.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, are they the exact same in qualities in both Roman and Greek mythology?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If not, what qualities did they share?&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/1685/967" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10516" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1997" RevisionGUID="a57a40b0-2b3d-4fa2-98b7-0198c6639191" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="Yes Apollo is the same god in both Greek and Roman mythology.&#xA;&#xA;From [Wikipedia][1] The Roman worship of Apollo was adopted from the Greeks. As a quintessentially Greek god, Apollo had no direct Roman equivalent, although later Roman poets often referred to him as Phoebus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A similar question was asked here: [Was Apollo the sun god in Augustan Rome?][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1683/was-apollo-the-sun-god-in-augustan-rome" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10517" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2088" RevisionGUID="f6a5b803-12c7-47b8-8258-3fdee6c40653" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="I recall reading about Vesta, and I believe that, like Mars and Saturn, she was more important to the Roman pantheon than the Greek. I'd like to know what the differences were between Vesta and Hestia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Inspired by https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/53/what-differences-were-there-in-greek-soldiers-worship-of-ares-and-roman-soldiers?rq=1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10518" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2105" RevisionGUID="7feb26c9-3c58-4859-8aca-73dd2bff9747" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="Chinese Mythology is instructive in this regard.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;History and Mythology were conflated up until the 20th century, so you have cycles, such as the [&quot;Three Kingdoms&quot;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Kingdoms), which are both historical and mythological. [Lord Guan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guan_Yu#Worship_of_Guan_Yu) is a hero of the Three Kingdoms period who famously, posthumously became one of the most revered gods in the Chinese pantheon.  Even the history of his elevation to godhood is conflated with mythology because the sources related to it are not academic, but folkloric, and the apotheosis took place in stages over about 1500 years. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Duke of Zhou](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Zhou), one of the great sages of antiquity and a seminal figure in Chinese history and culture, is a similar figure. The Duke of Zhou is credited with the concept of the &quot;Mandate of Heaven&quot; which led to the overthrow of the Shang Dynasty, itself recounted in work such as &quot;[The Creation of the Gods](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investiture_of_the_Gods)&quot;.  The Duke of Zhou was inadvertently deified as the [God of Dreams](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Zhou#God_of_Dreams) based on a misunderstanding of a quote by [Master Kong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Contemporary Chinese mythology is particularly interesting because we can see mythology forming in historic times before our eyes.  Here I am talking about figures such as [Wong Fei-Hung](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wong_Fei-hung), who was both an historical person, and rose to prominence through the new medium of cinema to occupy a central place in Chinese Heroic Folklore.  For context, there have been literally hundreds of films about Fei-Hung--far more than all of the Western superhero movies combined.  *[I addressed this phenomenon in more detail [here](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2048/to-what-degree-are-depictions-of-beggar-so-influenced-by-the-immortal-li-tieguai)]*.  There is no parallel in the West that I know of.  In the case of Fei-Hung, it was about 25 years after his death that he began to be mythologized in film.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;American mythology is also useful.  We see mythologization of figures like [George Washington in the story of the cherry tree](http://www.mountvernon.org/digital-encyclopedia/article/cherry-tree-myth/). This particular myth seems to have arisen about 6 years after Washington's death.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Outlaws are another type of American hero that have been widely mythologized.  The &quot;Wild West&quot; is full of figures and account both accurate, exaggerated, and entirely fabricated, generally beginning during the lifetimes of the figures in question, and often for reasons of economic gain.  [Calamity Jane](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calamity_Jane) and [&quot;Wild Bill&quot; Hickok](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22Wild_Bill%22_Hickok) featured recently on the acclaimed series [Deadwood](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadwood_(TV_series)), a further mythologization of those personages.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My favorite American example is [Bonnie and Clyde](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonnie_and_Clyde).  They attained legendary status during their lifetimes, and the legend only grew after their deaths.  What makes these two especially interesting to me is the [Arthur Penn film](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonnie_and_Clyde_(film)) starring Faye Dunaway and Warren Beaty. Beyond the casting, the film is notable both for its accolades and controversy surrounding it. In other words, the film has a place in the literary canon, with an extra footnote on the depiction of violence in film.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Icelandic Sagas are also worth thinking about.  There you have the documentation of history in the form of stories about heroes.  Although authorship of the sagas is for the most part anonymous, it's a reasonable assumption that they would have been composed in a time not too distant from the events they recount.  I particularly like the Icelandic sagas, not only for their literary quality, but for their concern with settlement and the origin of place-names, which link them to the real world.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of euhemerism, I doubt there's a easy answer.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The above material would seem to indicate that legends do indeed originate from history, but it also seems clear that stories can be shared, either with a literary or syncretic intent.  (For instance Cúchulainn's  choice of glory over long life is so similar to Achilles', it's hard not to believe they are connected.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Furthermore, Greek mythology has several phases, such as Archaic (pre-Classical) and Classical.  Many of the myths we know originated with Archaic authors such as Homer and Hesiod.  These myths were adapted by subsequent authors such as the Greek dramatists to suit their thematic purposes.  These later interpolations, many of which are now central to the canon, could not have been based on any historical fact, but are purely literary, even when commenting on contemporary history, such as the [atrocities committed at Melos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milos#Siege_of_416_BC) and the infamous [Sicilian Expedition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_Expedition).  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10519" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2125" RevisionGUID="a3bffa0e-fc4f-4402-ae03-18292c0ef7a2" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="Friday is named for Frigg, see e.g. Gro Stensland's *Fornnordisk Religion* (if you can read Scandinavian) or [Etymology Online][1]. A few Icelandic writers appears to have called it &quot;Freyjudagr&quot; (it would for sure fit better with the Latin name), but this did not catch on and the modern name is derived from Frigg's.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the question of identity, I will refer to [this][2] question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&amp;search=friday&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2073/did-odin-have-a-relationship-with-freya/2074#2074" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10520" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2163" RevisionGUID="2a7375d2-71ae-46f2-9003-45979e1e997d" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="This is from [Bleh's answer][1] (quoting [theoi.com][2]):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The cosmic story of five Titanes--four holding the corners of heaven--may be Phoenician in origin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What Phoenician story could be the basis for the Titanes story?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/1786/3230&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Titanes.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10521" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2242" RevisionGUID="09ff0856-0b0a-4cc6-9a81-ddca72e184bf" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="I'll start out by noting that Amazons come from Greek mythology but the character known as Wonder Woman is a modern invention, inspired by, but not present in the Classical canon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first clue is her name, Diana.  Diana was the Roman name for the Greek goddess Artemis, famous for her archery skills.  **Key point: Diana is not an Ancient Greek name.**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Wikipedia has a very comprehensive list of actual names of Amazon warriors](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazons#Lists) from mythology. You'll see names like Deianeira and Dioxippe, but not Diana.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although Wonder Woman is a modern invention, the legends of the [Amazons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazons) do derive from actual Greek mythology.  The most famous Amazons are surely [Penthesilea](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penthesilea) and her sister, [Hippolyta](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippolyta_(DC_Comics)), who took [Theseus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theseus) as her husband. (As a Wonder Woman fan, you will know that her mother is named for this actual, mythological figure.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Themiscyra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Themiscyra_(Pontus)) does feature in the ancient Greek histories as a legendary town of the Amazons as early as the 5th century BCE.  (The Greek histories are entwined with the mythological canon in that the mythical origins of places are often discussed.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Themiscyra is not associated with Atlantis in the greater Classical canon**, although there is a similarity in that Themiscyra's location is a subject of some dispute.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding [Atlantis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantis), it also dates from the Classical period, although it is not a location of mythological stories per se, but first appears in [Plato](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_(Plato)) as part of an allegory on national [hubris](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no evidence that Atlantis was anything other than an invention of Plato, although many have speculated to the contrary. For instance, the island of [Thera](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santorini) is often put forth as an actual location.  Thera was famously subject to [a massive volcanic eruption](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_eruption) and subsequent submersion of most of the island under the sea.  It's also worth noting that Minoan civilization was a pre-cursor of Greek civilization--an advanced culture based on an island dominating the region--so the idea of an Atlantis may also be related to the impact of Minoan hegemony in the ancient Greek cultural consciousness.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact, the famous mythological Amazon [Hippolyta is linked to Theseus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippolyta#The_Ninth_Labour_of_Heracles), and Theseus is linked to Minoan Crete through the story of the [Minotaur](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minotaur#Theseus_and_the_Minotaur). The tribute of &#xD;&#xA;the Athenian youths to be devoured by the Minotaur is an example of the former domination of the Minoans over the Greek tribes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, **no, Atlantis is not a location that figures in the formal canon of Classical Mythology, but has subsequently been widely mythologized.**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can find an additional discussion on the location and nature of Atlantis [here](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1603/in-mythology-where-and-what-was-atlantis)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10522" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2243" RevisionGUID="f1e40ae3-e2cc-48cd-9f55-efd659c797f3" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="The [Knights Templar][1] were a Catholic military order. They were very wealthy and very skilled, but after the Holy Land was lost in the crusades, mistrust built on them and rumors started to spread about them. One of these rumors was that the order worshiped Baphomet:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The symbolic head of the goat of Mendes is occasionally given to this figure, and it is then the Baphomet of the Templars and the Word of the Gnostics, bizarre images which became scarecrows for the vulgar after affording food for reflection to sages – innocent hieroglyphs of thought and faith which have been a pretext for the rage of persecutions. How pitiable are men in their ignorance, but how they would despise themselves if only they came to know!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Dogma et Rituel de la Haute Magie (translated)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Satanism, on the other hand, is the belief that Satan, or any form of the devil, is the main force. So it appears the Baphomet is associated with both the Knights Templar and [Satanism][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which association of Baphomet came first?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1853/why-are-goats-associated-with-satan" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10523" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2248" RevisionGUID="7bd07d7d-32c8-4aea-8620-a0101f15c400" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="Baphomet is definitely associated with Satanism in that Anton LeVay adopted it as the insignia for his church.  Prior to that, I can't really say, but it's a reasonable assumption that organizations such as the Catholic church would have considered Baphomet satanic.  (Check out [this thread](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1853/why-are-goats-associated-with-satan) for more info on that subject.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of the Templars, my understanding is that they were *accused* of worshiping the Baphomet, but that the sources regarding this are not necessarily reliable. (i.e. The Templars were dismantled for political reasons, so the evidence against them has to be regarded as suspect.) Part of the problem is that many myths have arisen about the Templars.  These ideas are quite popular in the public imagination and taken to be true even where there is a lack of definitive evidence or any evidence at all.  (For instance, modern conspiracy theorists are very fond of theories linking to the Templars, almost certainly due to their involvement with banking.  International Banking is a central focus of leading modern conspiracy theorists.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is just a high-level, general answer, not intended to be definitive.  It's possible someone with more academic knowledge of [Hermeticism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeticism), devil worship and the Templars will be able to provide much more specific answers.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10524" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2252" RevisionGUID="6657397a-5de4-4f21-a009-50528311bd67" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="Völsung's mother, despite giving birth to the clan's namesake in a [rather bizarre manner][1], is never named in the Völsunga saga.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is her name mentioned anywhere else in the Völsung cycle? Do we know anything about her, other than being Rerir's wife and Völsung's mother?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/2216/57" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10525" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2277" RevisionGUID="89c5231d-6bd9-44e4-adbe-2606f6e449b3" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="It is 100% supportable that the &quot;box&quot; represents the womb in [Hesiod's version of the myth from his Theogony](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D545).  In brief:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In the Theogony, Hesiod never mentions any vessel save Pandora herself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Pandora is cast as the mother of the &quot;race of women&quot; who were created to vex men (i.e. they are the source of evil named by Hesiod in the Theogony.)    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In other versions of the myth, no &quot;box&quot; is mentioned, but instead a *[pithou](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pi%2Fqos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=pi%2Fqos0#lexicon)* meaning &quot;jar&quot; for wine or oil.  (If wine, it could represent blood, and oil is a lubricant.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The idea of woman as vessel is a major point in Apollo's notorious arguments in Orestes' defense in [The Eumenides](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oresteia#The_Eumenides), demonstrating the existence of this concept in Ancient Greek thought.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can find a more detailed explanation of this element of the myth [here](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2251/what-is-the-good-and-the-evil-in-the-pandoras-box-story), as well as a discussion of the possible meaning in Aesop and Hesiod.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10526" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2394" RevisionGUID="cdc24929-3b35-48e2-b97b-09c00ae2ed22" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="[This excellent question](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/2383/2892) got me thinking about how to understand the perceived ambiguity of the status of &quot;Hope&quot; in the [Works and Days version of the Pandora story](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0132%3Acard%3D83).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there some deeper meaning to the jar lid specifically, and hope's status of remaining under it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10527" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2395" RevisionGUID="624ca85d-b24d-4488-ab01-0cf1ae8b3b37" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="Absolutely. Hesiod is quite deep, and as Aristotle's use of Hesiod's Eros demonstrates, profound meaning may be found hidden in the work.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Hesiod says, “ First of all things was Chaos made, and then/Broad-bosomed Earth . . ./And Love, the foremost of immortal beings,” thus implying that there must be in the world some cause to move things and combine them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Hesiod... assumed Love or Desire as a first principle in things.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Source: [Aristot. Met. 1.984b](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0052%3Abook%3D1%3Asection%3D984b) | A brief commentary may be found [here.](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2379/2892)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Hesiod has two accounts of the Pandora story, one which mentions a jar (i.e. box) and one that has no mention of any vessel save Pandora herself.  See [&quot;Good and Evil in the Pandora Story&quot;](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2258/2892)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The lid of the jar is noted by Hesiod to be an &quot;[unbreakable](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29%2Frrhktos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=a%29%2Frrhktos0)&quot; &quot;[home](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=do%2Fmos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=do%2Fmos0#Perseus:text:1999.04.0058:entry=do/mos-contents)&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The verb [ἔμιμνε](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29%2Fmimne&amp;la=greek#lexicon), which is used to connote the status of Hope under the lid, is and [imperfect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_verbs#Imperfect_tense) verb. Imperfect verbs are generally regarded as &quot;open ended&quot; as in continual, which connotes a sense of eternality in the Hesiod passage.  *[Compare to the [aorist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_verbs#Aorist_tense) or [pluperfect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_verbs#Pluperfect_tense) which connote completed actions.]* The choice of imperfect, in and of itself, is hopeful.  &quot;Remained&quot;, as it is often translated, might be more properly &quot;has remained&quot; or even &quot;remains&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [pithou](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pi%2Fqos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=pi%2Fqos0#lexicon) (jar) can be taken as a methphor for the body, made from similar material as Pandora herself (literally &quot;[earth](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=gai%3Dan&amp;la=greek&amp;can=gai%3Dan0&amp;prior=ta/xista&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0131:card=59&amp;i=1)&quot; and &quot;[water](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=u%28%2Fdei&amp;la=greek&amp;can=u%28%2Fdei0&amp;prior=gai=an&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0131:card=59&amp;i=1)&quot; in Hesiod, but generally translated as clay.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The pithou of jar Hesiod references are made from clay, and yet Hesiod says this particular vessel, at least the lid, is unbreakable.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Continuing with the body metaphor, the &quot;lid&quot; can be taken to mean the head.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is further supported in that the evils Hesiod describes, [toil](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=po%2Fnoio&amp;la=greek&amp;can=po%2Fnoio0&amp;prior=xalepoi=o&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0131:card=83&amp;i=1), [illnesss](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=no%2Fsos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=no%2Fsos0), and even [vices](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ka%2Fkh&amp;la=greek&amp;can=ka%2Fkh0#lexicon), can be said to be afflictions of the body.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hope, by contrast, relates to the mind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The unbreakable status of the lid can be taken as a metaphor for the eternal component of humans, which is often called the soul.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus the evils of the Pandora's box may destroy the body and bring death, but they cannot destroy the human spirit.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10528" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2425" RevisionGUID="94585b01-ad26-49cf-b582-6b5e287f3048" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="First, it should be noted that this question is not particular to mythology: the same problem appears in history and literature as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Second, we should note that using a translation is always a secondary or tertiary choice for the serious scholar. When doing a study of a text, it is always preferable to be able read it in the original language. If that is not possible, it is best to be able to ask someone who can read it to clear up any uncertainties. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gibet has given some very good examples of the different styles of translations possible - tending towards to get the sense behind the words right, or transmitting an idea of the poetry. Mario gives a good example of how there might be translation difficulties also in prose.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, what translations should we use? Are we interested in a bigger picture (&quot;What will happen at Ragnarök?&quot;)? Then we might make do with any reasonably accurate translation. Are we interested in some detail  (&quot;[Did Loki give birth to a monster?][1]&quot;)? Then we might need something that gets the sense of the text right. Are we perhaps interested in the language used to describe someone (an important issue when seeking Christian influence in Norse mythology)? Then we certainly would need the original, or at least several different translations that aim to be as literal as possible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As an example when you would need to consider all of these is Norse poetry. It is notably convoluted, using both a meter, with alliteration (and sometimes rhyme), and [kennings][2], mythological allusions that sometimes goes in several stages. [Here][3] is a site that analyses Þórsdrápa. Just browsing it will quickly let you see how difficult it would be to translate it and still keep some remnant of the original form. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To summarise: it is not always necessary to consult several translations, depending on what question you are interested in. However, it would be a serious mistake to use any given translation as if it were perfect and dependable in every detail. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2113/did-loki-give-birth-to-a-monster/2115#2115&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenning&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://notendur.hi.is//~eybjorn/ugm/thorsd00.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10529" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2444" RevisionGUID="28521dd2-343c-4c0e-98fc-6df44e211f1d" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="We had this question in a [slightly different form][1] a while ago, and I'm going to give the same answer I did then - that it goes back to the Aesir - Vanir war and the settlement between the two sides. One deity from each side gets half the dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is speculation, and I'm going to go further and say that Freyja goes first because of her particular power. Ursula Dronke suggested, in her book on the poems of the *Poetic Edda*, that the reason neither side won that war is that Odin's power to kill and Freyja's power to renew life meant a permanent standoff. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Dronke's book is [available from Scribd][2], by the way, if you want to check it out.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since Freyja can bring the dead back (see [Sorla thattr][3] for an example of her using this power) I figure she gets first pick of the dead. This would tie in with her being a death goddess, or a goddess of the gates of life and death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/10/how-was-it-decided-which-warriors-would-go-to-f%C3%B3lkvangr-and-which-to-valhalla/1821#1821&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.scribd.com/document/17115248/Elder-Edda-Vsp-Vkv-Ls-Skm-Rg-Ursula-Dronke-vol-2-1997&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%B6rla_%C3%BE%C3%A1ttr" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10530" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2447" RevisionGUID="3b1c2eb6-a9f4-4085-83aa-074cf8444553" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="Per my [previous question][1], we've established that Heracles' had committed suicide of the pain of poison.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The idea that the poison will kill him, however, is not universal.  The Heracles of the [Alcestis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcestis_(play)) has defeated death, and there is the implication the pain of the poison will be unending since, having defeated death, he cannot die. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; -  There must be a deeper meaning in this act of self-immolation. The literal answer of &quot;shortening the length of his suffering&quot; is unsatisfactory because Heracles is deified after his &quot;death&quot; and joins the ranks of the Olympians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The use of fire is significant.  Otherwise, why not choose a less painful manner of death? (i.e. throwing himself from a cliff, or falling on his sword.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's also notable that the festival of Dionysus was a religious festival.  A play such as the Bacchae, from which many meanings can be derived, particularly in a post0modern context, is, at it core, a commemoration of the dismemberment of Dionysus ([Zagreus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreus)) at the hands of the Titans and his subsequent rebirth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Likewise, the death of Heracles in the context of a religious poem is a commemoration of the death of another half-mortal, half-divine son of Zeus who is subsequently deified.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/2416/57" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10531" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2451" RevisionGUID="6f17fc3c-1e9f-47c1-9cd0-e3aed4808b83" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="Regarding the variance of Ancient Greek texts, I strongly urge anyone with an interest to compare the [Pope](https://www.gutenberg.org/files/6130/6130-h/6130-h.html#toc5), [Lattimore](http://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/I/bo5811519.html), [Fitzgerald](https://books.google.com/books?id=OT9pj8chUbQC&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;dq=Robert+Fitzgerald#v=onepage&amp;q=Robert%20Fitzgerald&amp;f=false) and [Fagles](https://books.google.com/books?id=CzaeCifjTf4C&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;dq=fagles+iliad&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjxqoHtz8zSAhUJ4iYKHbi3APcQ6wEIHTAA#v=onepage&amp;q=fagles%20iliad&amp;f=false) Iliads.  The variance of translation will be immediately apparent. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although the stories are all the same, details may differ due to the degree of license taken by various authors in translating.  Thus a question like &quot;[The repertoire of the Sphinx][1]&quot; [cannot be definitively answered][2] without [going to the source text][3]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ancient Greek is highly irregular, having lost the digamma, but still being subject to the digamma, in the conjugation of verbs, for instance. Although there are now superior electronic lexical resources, which make determining the roots of words a trivial task, in the past, even the recent past, this was very arduous works, and scholars needed a profound understanding of the language to advance the scholarship. The further back you go in time, the less accurate Ancient Greek translations are going to be, which is why newer translations are always favored for mythological research purposes. ([Richmond Lattimore][4] is often held up as epitomizing accuracy and elegance in Ancient Greek translation.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Latin is much more regular, and words can be more easily directly translated. However, like Ancient Greek, Latin has a vast number of noun and verb forms, and utilizes staggeringly complex clause structures, which can create ambiguity, especially as ancient texts have little in the way of punctuation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For instance, the [Loeb Metamorphoses][5] presents a translation originally from 1916 that is nearly word for word, although Goold notes in the preface that &quot;there was much which in the recent light of scholarship called for amendment.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;[Ovid Metamorphoses, Miller, F.J., Harvard University Press, 1994]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Goold also note the variance in the Latin source texts, and the possibility of two Ovid versions, which raises another important issues:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the deepest level of scholarship, one must consider not just a single source in the original language, but all competing sources in the original language, for a given text.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For instance, [the miraculous rescue of Iphigenia at Aulis is widely believed to be an interpolation \[see note 102\]][6]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, to understand the Euripides play at anything more than a cursory level, you need to be aware of the scholarship regarding the source texts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*On a personal note, I've known at least one theology student who turned away from Greek because it raised too many questions regarding interpretation of the texts.*  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/2396/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2397/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2402/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richmond_Lattimore&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.loebclassics.com/view/LCL042/1916/volume.xml&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Iphigenia_at_Aulis" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10532" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2452" RevisionGUID="2604f6d3-4276-4ccd-a955-a0139c91f43c" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="**Khepra**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Khepra is the Egyptian god of dawn, morning and sun-rise and is often represented as a dung beetle (or dung beetle-headed). As he Ra always emerged from the dark depths of the Duat everyday as his aspect of Khepra, Khepra is viewed as the god of rebirth and renewal as well, akin to how the scarab lays its eggs in a ball of dung and rolls it to hide in a safe place. From this unlikely substance the Egyptians observed new life emerging, seemingly from the Earth. However, as a god himself, Khepra never really had his own independent cult.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-  [Khepri (Crystalinks)](http://www.crystalinks.com/khepri.html)&#xD;&#xA;-  [Khepri (Wikipedia)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khepri) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Atmu**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, I am not really sure about this deity since I used to think that he and Ra were the same being(Atum-Ra) and that Atum is not really an aspect of Ra. However, it is said that In the Old Kingdom Atum was linked specifically with the evening sun, while Ra or the closely linked god Khepri were connected with the sun at morning and midday. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Atum (Wikipedia)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atum) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Khnum**&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Now, I know that I already told you about Atum but I am still under the impression that Atum and Ra are the same and that one is not an aspect of another, so, if one who shared my same belief, or just wanted to know more, I will share with you about Khnum. Khnum is the Egyptian god of creation, the Nile, and, of corse, evening. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since the annual flooding of the Nile brought with it silt and clay, and its water brought life to its surroundings, he was thought to be the creator of the bodies of human children, which he made at a potter's wheel, from clay, and placed in their mothers' wombs. He later was described as having moulded the other deities, and he had the titles Divine Potter and Lord of created things from himself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for being the god of the evening, Khnum is mostly said to be an aspect of Ra. Sometimes, he is even said to be the [Ba of Ra](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/192/how-does-merging-of-two-gods-actually-work). However, some legends describe him to be a separate entity from Ra himself, who just accompanies and protects Ra during his journey throughout the Duat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Khnum (Arty Factory)](http://www.artyfactory.com/egyptian_art/egyptian_gods/khnum.htm)&#xD;&#xA;- [Khnum (Wikipedia)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khnum)&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10533" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2458" RevisionGUID="a2695a58-e19f-4755-817c-27823ba9d83a" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="Yannis [essentially answers the question here](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2419/2892), but I'll add a little detail, just for fun, using poetry *(since the deepest insights come from great poets)* and linguistics.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;T.S. Eliot writes about this very specifically:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The dove descending breaks the air&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;With flame of incandescent terror&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Of which the tongues declare&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The one dischage from sin and error.&lt;br&gt; &#xD;&#xA;The only hope, or else despair&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Lies in the choice of pyre of pyre-&lt;br&gt; &#xD;&#xA;To be redeemed from fire by fire.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Who then devised the torment? Love.&lt;br&gt; &#xD;&#xA;Love is the unfamiliar Name&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Behind the hands that wove &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The intolerable shirt of flame&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Which human power cannot remove.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;We only live, only suspire &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Consumed by either fire or fire.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Little Gidding][1]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Ancient Greek word for fire is &quot;pur&quot; ([πῦρ][2]) from which we derive pyre and purify.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Four Quartets and other works, Eliot connects these ideas from the Upanishads, through Greek Mythology and into Christian lore. Fire, is, of course, very important in Hindu mythology, and the Christian conception of love as [agape][3] grows out of ancient Greek explorations of the deeper meaning of love beyond [eros][4].  Eliot purposely conflates eros and agape in this poem.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is the romantic jealousy of Nessus that &quot;weaves&quot; the poison shirt, Deianira's love for her husband that brings it to him, but in the Christian conception, it is love that redeems us from the inextricable suffering of existence. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's not clear that Heracles can die--part of his myth is his defeat of death (Alcestis), and his travel to and return from the underworld.  Jumping off a cliff or opening his veins or falling on his sword may not have worked. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But by burning himself alive, he experiences suffering so excruciating that Zeus takes pity of him and releases him from the mortal coil. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pity was a very important concept to the Greeks.  It humanizes, as in the death of Hector, breaker of horses.  It was deeply religious, in that catharsis was the intent of Greek drama.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The purification and burning away of the mortal flesh can be said to be the foremost meaning, but pity is the key.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Heracles' agony is what gets Hera to relent, according to Ovid:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Come Juno, feast upon my death;&#xD;&#xA;feast on me, cruel one, look down from your&#xD;&#xA;exalted seat; behold my dreadful end&#xD;&#xA;and glut your savage heart! Oh, if I may&#xD;&#xA;deserve some pity from my enemy,&#xD;&#xA;from you I mean, this hateful life of mine&#xD;&#xA;take from me—sick with cruel suffering&#xD;&#xA;and only born for toil. The loss of life&#xD;&#xA;will be a boon to me, and surely is&#xD;&#xA;a fitting boon, such as stepmothers give!&quot;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[\[Metamorphoses, Book IX\]][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later in the section:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Gods felt fear&#xD;&#xA;for earth's defender and their sympathy&#xD;&#xA;gave pleasure to Saturnian Jove&lt;br&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[\[Metamorphoses, Book IX\]][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And all the gods, including Hera, acquiesce to Heracles deification and release from suffering.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is worth noting that Eliot concludes the Four Quartets with:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And all shall be well and&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;All manner of thing shall be well&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;When the tongues of flame are in-folded&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Into the crowned knot of fire&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And the fire and the rose are one.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Little Gidding][1]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;ON THE DOVE: The dove is a symbol that has many connotations, particularly in the wider scope of Eliot's poem.  The dove is generally associated with Aphrodite (love) but there is evidence of association with Hera also.  (Doves are monogamous during mating season, and monogamy is the domain of Hera.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “…it is significant that the dove was one of Hera’s sacred birds.  Doves were found in association with her temples at Argos and Delos, and related stature even depicts Hera with wings. (O’Brien 1993, 73;178, fig. 22; 227-31)  This iconography and Homer’s characterization of her in the [*Iliad* (5.778-9)][6] as one who moved ‘like a quivering dove” suggest that one of Hera’s early epiphanies may have been as a dove.” &lt;br&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Source: T[he Cult of Divine Birth In Ancient Greece, Rigoglioso, M. 2009, p.129\]][7]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An in-depth discussion on the etymology of Hera may be found in The *[Transformation of Hera: A Study of Ritual, Hero, and the Goddess in the Iliad][8]* by Joan V. O'Brien, Professor of Classics at Southern Illinois University, Carbondale.  The book references the association of Hera with the dove including pp.48, 114, 195, 228, 230, and most notably on page 207: “In the search for submerged images of God, those of the early Hera offer some interesting possibilities: a Soaring Dove bringing birth and death…”  On pp.186-187 O'Brien also links Hera and Aphrodite.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I believe there is also a credible hypothesis that Hera could be a feminine for of the masculine Eros, although I am having difficultly tracking that down at the moment. (When I find an academic reference I will amend.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.columbia.edu/itc/history/winter/w3206/edit/tseliotlittlegidding.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%E1%BF%A6%CF%81&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agape&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eros&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D172&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D5%3Acard%3D764&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://books.google.com/books?id=ifrHAAAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA129&amp;lpg=PA129&amp;dq=hera%20dove&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=kdi7w_H4kE&amp;sig=7dm74SMEaiR3NB1vatUoBM_xmoc&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwje4qq3n9TSAhWL7YMKHYrVD9MQ6AEIUTAM#v=onepage&amp;q=hera%20dove&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://books.google.com/books?id=a77yKM26GfYC&amp;pg=PA114&amp;lpg=PA114&amp;dq=hera%20dove&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=45stBJV4wR&amp;sig=kiFxVAe3olkEO6eqhh26CrK5Lgc&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwj0_ImHodTSAhVl2oMKHYj-DzoQ6AEIRjAK#v=onepage&amp;q=hera%20dove&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10534" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2467" RevisionGUID="18f4a79a-cb7d-4225-8fa8-b522aa258b25" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="The one story that I found while researching the question, is the story of Thor wrestling [Elli][1]&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; in the *Gylfaginning*: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And again he said: Let me see first! Call hither that old woman, Elle, my foster-mother, and let Thor wrestle with her if he wants to. She has thrown to the ground men who have seemed to me no less strong than Thor. Then there came into the hall an old woman. Utgard-Loke bade her take a wrestle with Asa-Thor. The tale is not long. The result of the grapple was, that the more Thor tightened his grasp, the firmer she stood. Then the woman began to bestir herself, and Thor lost his footing. They had some very hard tussles, and before long Thor was brought down on one knee. Then Utgard-Loke stepped forward, bade them cease the wrestling, and added that Thor did not need to challenge anybody else to wrestle with him in his hall, besides it was now getting late. He showed Thor, and his companions to seats, and they spent the night there enjoying the best of hospitality.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Prose Edda/Gylfaginning. (2013, January 29). In Wikisource . Retrieved 11:21, March 15, 2017, from https://en.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning&amp;oldid=4271175&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tacitus mentions in *Germania* that Hercules was venerated by the Germanic people. The more likely explanation is that Tacitus meant Thor, and this is an instance of *interpretatio romana*, as andejons notes in the comments and Semaphore in a [related answer][2]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, temples dedicated to a syncretic Hercules Magusanus have been found in the Batavian region, which tells us that at least some Germanic people found Hercules interesting enough. The possibility that the Thor and Elli story was partially inspired by a Heracles and Geras story is certainly very slim, but I don't think it can be entirely dismissed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, we can't ignore that Elli is female and that Thor loses the fight. Neither detail fits a Heracles fighting off Geras story: Geras is obviously male, and Heracles would usually win his battles with deities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; This story is also notable for being an early record of [Glima][3], the martial arts system of the Vikings.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elli&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/212/57&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glima" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10535" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2481" RevisionGUID="a1c5ef96-eb43-41e8-90e7-a1360a997938" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="[Well, they were forced into Tartarus.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;And amongst the foremost Kottos (Cottus) and Briareos (Briareus) and Gyes insatiate for war raised fierce fighting : three hundred rocks, one upon another, **they launched from their strong hands and overshadowed the Titanes with their missiles, and buried them beneath the wide-pathed earth, and bound them in bitter chains** when they had conquered them by their strength for all their great spirit, as far beneath the earth to Tartaros . . . There by the counsel of Zeus who drives the clouds the Titan gods are hidden under misty gloom, in a dank place where are the ends of the huge earth. **And they may not go out; for Poseidon fixed gates of bronze upon it**, and a wall runs all round it on every side.There [the Hekatonkheires] Gyes and Kottos and great-souled Obriareus live, trusty warders of Zeus who holds the aegis . . . But when Zeus had driven the Titanes from heaven [then Gaia bore the monstrous giant Typhoeus to oppose Zeus].&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the hundred hand people scooped up the Titans and buried them in Tartarus, and with the help of a bronze gate, guarded them &lt;s&gt;forever&lt;/s&gt; [until they were released][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[Theoi][3] says&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt;Many human generations later, Zeus released Kronos and his brothers from this prison, and made the old Titan king of the Elysian Islands, home of the blessed dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Titanes.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1258/why-did-zeus-release-cronos/1259#1259&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanKronos.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10536" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2483" RevisionGUID="f195bdd5-b631-4463-9d36-25f3d22c2488" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="In ancient greek mythology, Heracles is the hero with the most adventures ever.  There is, however, a temporal paradox between the different myths about him that bothers me a bit. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Heracles was born as a mortal son of Zeus.  He has done a lot of heroic deeds while traveling around Earth, as well as a few shameful crimes like killing his own wife and children, Kheiron the centaur, and Iphitos. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Heracles was poisoned by the blood of Nessos, in his unbearable pain, he [chose to commit suicide by getting burned alive on a funeral pyre][f].  But before he could die, Zeus has rescued him by raising his spirit to Olympos, making him an immortal god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus has insisted that Heracles shall become one of the gods who participate in the regular dinner feasts of the gods on Olympos with Zeus himself.  As, however, there were previously twelve guests to those feasts, and thirteen was an unlucky number, Zeus has forced one of the other gods to give up their place in favor of Heracles. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Drinking ambrosia in the company of Zeus couldn't entirely satisfy Heracles, so he continued his heroic deeds as an immortal god.  Already experienced in defeating immortal beasts, he again helps the Olympians by fighting against the monstrous children the primordial gods have spawned.  As a physically strong god, he was a decisive factor in ending the rule of the Titans and ensuring that the Olympian gods would rule the world. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These stories seem contradictory.  If Zeus could raise his son to immortal status, and even re-arrange the the seating at the high table or Olympus, then surely he was already the king of Gods, comfortably ruling Earth together with the other Olympians.  The fight against the old gods must have happened before that.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the correct timeline here?  Did Heracles travel back in time after he became immortal?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[f]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/2416/197" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10537" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2498" RevisionGUID="81d3fe54-27cd-403d-bbbf-f9d704db234a" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="It is not actually the end times, as there is no universal apocalypse in the Greek canon (so far as I know,) but only a cleansing of the world of the evil race of men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ovid is probably the best explicator.  Zeus, throughly freaked out with his run in with the original &quot;[Hannibal Lecter][1]&quot; ([Lycaon][2]), in fear of his own continued dominion over the earth in the face of such adversaries, proclaims his intent to wipe humans from the face of the earth, which some gods approved &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; but all deplored and questioned the estate of earth deprived of mortals. Who could offer frankincense upon the altars? Would he suffer earth to be despoiled by hungry beasts of prey? &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Perseus][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus initially forbids them to discuss it but&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; granted soon to people earth with race miraculous, unlike the first. &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[ibid.][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of influence, Hesiod's story is basically universally accepted by all subsequent authors.  It is of utmost significance in the canon.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Apollodorus][4] is another major source of the story of [Deucalion][5] and this [Deluge][6], but does not mention the prophecy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;C.M. Wiemer has also noted the mention of a similar [use of prophecy in Plato][7] related to the Hesiod.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, you may be interested in the prophecy Ovid does reference in reference to Hesiod's story *(one of the may &quot;metas&quot; in [Metamorphoses][8];)* :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And now his thunder bolts &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;would Jove wide scatter, but he feared the flames, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;unnumbered, sacred ether might ignite &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;and burn the axle of the universe: &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;and he remembered in the scroll of fate, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;there is a time appointed when the sea &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;and earth and Heavens shall melt, and fire destroy &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;the universe of mighty labour wrought. &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Perseus][9]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Role of fate&quot; being the translator's fancification of the Latin word &quot;[fatis][10]&quot; (oracle).  This prophecy is definitely of the destruction of the universe as in end times and &quot;apocalypse&quot; and seems to be a novel addition to the canon by Ovid, about a thousand years after Hesiod. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*[[You can read a short discussion of Ovid's prophecy here.][11]]*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antihero&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycaon_(Arcadia)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D163&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliotheca_(Pseudo-Apollodorus)&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deucalion&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_flood_myths#Deucalion&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2463/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphoses&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D253&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=fatis&amp;la=la&amp;can=fatis0&amp;prior=in&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.02.0029:book=1:card=253&amp;i=1&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/2491/2892" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10538" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2539" RevisionGUID="343cd884-b366-493e-a112-f00b95332d24" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:00:20.313" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://mythology.stackexchange.com/ with https://mythology.stackexchange.com/" Text="[There was a question on Odin's patronage of Sigi, despite Sigi committing a murder and becoming an outlaw.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the ideas I used was the idea that Odin is the patron of outcasts, which is consistent with heroic mores in relation to the Sagas and Odin's patronage of the outsider Loki.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there anything directly in the canon that comments on and supports this idea?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2208/why-does-odin-favour-sigi-at-the-beginning-of-the-saga-of-the-v%C3%B6lsungs" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10539" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1683" RevisionGUID="50b4fefa-ac85-408f-880f-112d52caccf6" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:01:09.607" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://latin.stackexchange.com/ with https://latin.stackexchange.com/" Text="I had assumed that Apollo was the sun god in the Augustan era of Rome. I still think this is true. But I read a passage in Wikipedia that made me doubt this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Hellenistic times, especially during the 3rd century BCE, as Apollo Helios he became identified among Greeks with Helios, Titan god of the sun, and his sister Artemis similarly equated with Selene, Titan goddess of the moon.[2] **In Latin texts,** on the other hand, Joseph Fontenrose declared himself unable to find any conflation of Apollo with Sol among the Augustan poets of the 1st century, not even in the conjurations of Aeneas and Latinus in Aeneid XII (161–215).[3] Apollo and Helios/Sol remained separate beings in literary and mythological texts until the 3rd century CE. [Wikipedia (Apollo)][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am confident that Apollo was the god of the sun, since Charles Martin's translation of the *Metamorphoses* refers to the sun god by the names Phoebus or Phoebus Apollo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But the passage seems to say that Apollo was not conflated with Sol. That would leave us with two sun gods. Or maybe an &quot;old&quot; sun god and a &quot;new&quot; sun god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm curious what you guys think of this question. Was there simply an &quot;old&quot; sun god (Sol) and a newer, assimilated sun god (Apolllo)? Or is the Wikipedia passage inaccurate?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This question was originally posted in latin.SE. I think it's on-topic in both forums.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://latin.stackexchange.com/questions/963/was-apollo-the-sun-god-in-the-augustan-era&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10540" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2509" RevisionGUID="5f24e398-6114-4a00-ab29-9e688e834c02" CreationDate="2017-04-13T13:01:09.607" UserId="-1" Comment="replaced http://latin.stackexchange.com/ with https://latin.stackexchange.com/" Text="It is correct that the Latin noun used by Seneca ([chaos][1]), and that some related adjectives, can be either masculine *or* [neuter][2], but is likely masculine because ([clamore][3]) is masculine, thus: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;let Chaos re-echo the outcries of his grief.&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hercules Furens, trans. Frank Justus Miller][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**However, it is important to note the concept derives from the Greek, with Hesiod as the likely original textual source, and there it is definitively neuter.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perseus doesn't have an English translation of the Seneca, but [the Latin can be found here][5], with links to the lexicon for each word:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Resonet maesto clamore chaos&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;lateque patens unda profundi:&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Seneca, Hercules Furens, Rudolf Peiper, Gustav Richter, Ed., 1108-9&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notable that in the above passage that &quot;chaos&quot; is not capitalized in the Peiper and Richter, which may be an indication of the concept as opposed to a direct personification. (Note that there is variation in different versions of Greek and Latin source texts, which were preserved for millennia by transcription. [Ancient texts tend to have no punctuation or division between words][6].) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Aristophanes, Chaos ([Χάους][8]), capitalized, singular and neuter. *(Note that the specific form of the word may also be adjectival, though not in this example, and in that form is plural. I'm not sure this can be taken as an indication that Chaos is [multipartite][9], but it's an interesting thought!)*  The [English O'Neil text may be found on Perseus][10] with the [Greek text linked][11].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Quintus Smyrnaeus, Fall of Troy (3.755)][12], about eight centuries after Aristophanes, uses the same form (Χάους). Unfortunately, the Perseus Greek text does not seem to be linked to an English translation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Virgil reference ([Georgics 4. 345 ff][13]) uses &quot;[Chao][14]&quot;, here capitalized, which again may be either masculine or neuter.  (Note that the translator, J. B. Greenough, uses &quot;old Chaos&quot;, but that is poetic license, and I don't see an adjective that would confirm the gender in this example.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hesiod, in the [Theogony (line 116)][15] uses [Χάος][16], which again, is neuter in the intended nominative form, but in the adjectival form may be either masculine or feminine.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;*I'm going to try and run down even more sources and will likely continue to amend, as it is a very interesting question!(Part of the problem is I'm having trouble locating online sources in the original language for many of the authors, such as the Callimachus Aetia Fragment 2, and would have to dig out actual books;)*  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Right now, it's looking like there is a strong case for a gender fluid or neutral personification of Chaos, at least per the original Greek.  This would be consistent with the idea of Chaos being ever-changing.***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=chaos&amp;la=la&amp;can=chaos0&amp;prior=clamore&amp;d=Perseus:text:2007.01.0003:card=1054&amp;i=1&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.memidex.com/neut+grammar&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=clamore&amp;la=la&amp;can=clamore0&amp;prior=maesto&amp;d=Perseus:text:2007.01.0003:card=1054&amp;i=1&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaHerculesFurens.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2007.01.0003%3Acard%3D1054&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://latin.stackexchange.com/a/49&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2007.01.0007%3Acard%3D510&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=*xa%2Fous&amp;la=greek&amp;can=*xa%2Fous0&amp;prior=te&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0025:card=685&amp;i=1#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/multipartite&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0026%3Acard%3D685&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0025%3Acard%3D685&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0490%3Abook%3D3&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0058%3Abook%3D4%3Acard%3D333&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=Chao&amp;la=la&amp;can=chao0&amp;prior=aque&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.02.0059:book=4:card=333&amp;i=1&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D104&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=*xa%2Fos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=*xa%2Fos0&amp;prior=prw/tista&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0129:card=104&amp;i=1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10541" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2526" RevisionGUID="d1b2f959-81a5-4f5d-8b2a-91b49f3d5125" CreationDate="2017-04-13T21:29:52.173" UserId="2807" Comment="Fixed minor misspelling" Text="I was wondering if there were any deities whose roles had been greatly diminished by the Greek pantheon after being assimilated into it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10542" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2526" RevisionGUID="d1b2f959-81a5-4f5d-8b2a-91b49f3d5125" CreationDate="2017-04-13T21:29:52.173" UserId="2807" Comment="Fixed minor misspelling" Text="Are there any deities whose roles had been greatly diminished by the Greek pantheon?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10543" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2526" RevisionGUID="d1b2f959-81a5-4f5d-8b2a-91b49f3d5125" CreationDate="2017-04-13T21:29:52.173" Comment="Proposed by 2807 approved by 2774, 292 edit id of 433" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10544" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2034" RevisionGUID="aafded64-5d22-4ea8-8217-44a43974a0e5" CreationDate="2017-04-14T18:40:08.463" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="10545" PostHistoryTypeId="13" PostId="2463" RevisionGUID="1a894d73-7903-46fc-868b-260c45751e95" CreationDate="2017-04-14T18:48:53.573" UserId="398" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;C. M. Weimer&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="10546" PostHistoryTypeId="13" PostId="2417" RevisionGUID="b595c788-f3c6-4804-a0a5-eb818df8ff54" CreationDate="2017-04-14T18:50:38.903" UserId="398" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;C. M. Weimer&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="10548" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2536" RevisionGUID="a17fd607-7c66-4d35-b316-83a4b4dbe74a" CreationDate="2017-04-14T19:38:36.837" UserId="2892" Comment="Added Kronos" Text="This answer will be evolving as I add to the list, but first I'll start with the most striking example:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **[The Erinyes][1]**: The [Orestia of Aeschylus][2] is a recounting of the pacification of the Erinyes in service of the advancement of civilization.  Nevertheless, their transformation to the Eumenides is demotion both in terms of status and power, in that their ancient domain and prerogatives are stripped from them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **Artemis**: A primal form of Artemis, [the Lady of Ephesus][3], was a mother goddess believed to be related to [Cybele][4]. Under the Olympian hegemony, Artemis may be said to have transformed from a &quot;Great Goddess&quot; with unrestrained power to the virgin daughter of the king of the gods.  (This may be a reflection of the curtailing of the power of [Gaia][5] by casting down her offspring in the [Titanomachy][6] and [Gigantomachy][7], and extends to all Olympian goddesses, with some small exception for Aphrodite in still having power over Zeus per his licentiousness.)   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **Kronos** suffered a heavy loss of status is being overthrown by his son Zeus.  This is of particular interest in that Zeus' primary preoccupation, even above dominion of the the earth, may be said to be avoiding the prophecy that Zeus himself would be overthrown by his own progeny.  Thus [Thetis][8] and [Metis][9].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erinyes&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oresteia&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemis#Artemis_as_the_Lady_of_Ephesus&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybele&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanomachy&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giants_(Greek_mythology)#The_Gigantomachy&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thetis#Marriage_to_Peleus&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metis_(mythology)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10549" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2509" RevisionGUID="7ec8db65-a26c-4b07-bdf1-7a4db6503bd0" CreationDate="2017-04-14T22:13:45.950" UserId="2892" Comment="Amended based on clarification over on Stack Latin." Text="It is important to note the concept derives from the Greek, with Hesiod as the likely original textual source, and there it is definitively neuter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The confusion seems to arise from translations.  For instance:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;let Chaos re-echo the outcries of his grief.&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hercules Furens, trans. Frank Justus Miller][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perseus doesn't have an English translation of the Seneca, but [the Latin can be found here][2], with links to the lexicon for each word:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Resonet maesto clamore chaos&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Seneca, Hercules Furens, Rudolf Peiper, Gustav Richter, Ed., 1108-9&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So far, two Latin scholars have pointed out that there is nothing in the Latin that would indicate a masculine chaos.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;@Joonas Ilmavirta provided a re-translation that does not require gender, more in keeping with how modern scholars, in my experience, try to approach:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; May chaos re-echo with a sorrowful cry.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Source][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For a more detailed explanation on both the grammar and gender of Chaos, see @C.M.Weimer's answer here: https://latin.stackexchange.com/a/4098/1407&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notable that in the above passage that &quot;chaos&quot; is not capitalized in the Peiper and Richter, which may be an indication of the concept as opposed to a direct personification. (There may variation in different versions of Greek and Latin source texts, which were preserved for millennia by transcription. [Ancient texts tend to have no punctuation or division between words][4], and lack of capitalization in this instance may have been a choice of these particular scholars.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Aristophanes, Chaos ([Χάους][5]), capitalized, singular and neuter. *(Note that the specific form of the word may also be adjectival, though not in this example, and in that form is plural. I'm not sure this can be taken as an indication that Chaos is [multipartite][6], but it's an interesting thought!)*  The [English O'Neil text may be found on Perseus][7] with the [Greek text linked][8].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Quintus Smyrnaeus, Fall of Troy (3.755)][9], about eight centuries after Aristophanes, uses the same form (Χάους). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Virgil reference ([Georgics 4. 345 ff][10]) uses &quot;[Chao][11]&quot;, here capitalized, which again may be either masculine or neuter.  (Note that the translator, J. B. Greenough, uses &quot;old Chaos&quot;, but that is poetic license.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod, in the [Theogony (line 116)][12] uses [Χάος][13], which again, is neuter in the intended nominative form, but in the adjectival form may be either masculine *or* feminine. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**There seems to be a very strong case for a gender neutral (or possibly even fluid) personification of Chaos. This would be consistent with the idea of Chaos being ever-changing.***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaHerculesFurens.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2007.01.0003%3Acard%3D1054&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://latin.stackexchange.com/a/4097/1407&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://latin.stackexchange.com/a/49&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=*xa%2Fous&amp;la=greek&amp;can=*xa%2Fous0&amp;prior=te&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0025:card=685&amp;i=1#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/multipartite&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0026%3Acard%3D685&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0025%3Acard%3D685&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0490%3Abook%3D3&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0058%3Abook%3D4%3Acard%3D333&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=Chao&amp;la=la&amp;can=chao0&amp;prior=aque&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.02.0059:book=4:card=333&amp;i=1&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D104&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=*xa%2Fos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=*xa%2Fos0&amp;prior=prw/tista&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0129:card=104&amp;i=1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10550" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2528" RevisionGUID="e4fadb56-496d-40fb-a47e-c7be82121cd9" CreationDate="2017-04-14T23:51:07.383" UserDisplayName="user1385" Comment="added 367 characters in body" Text="Many heroes and gods have many consorts but are still popular and worshipped and good examples of these are Zeus of Greek Mythology and Arjuna of Hindu Mythology. Are there any females similar to them? I am only aware of the heroine Draupadi but I am mostly looking for goddesses as compared to humans(although human examples will also be appreciated), but I am not looking for goddesses like Aphrodite and Ishtar, whom just take and discard lovers as they are extremely lustful. Note that I am not just looking for any females but ones that are celebrated.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Edit**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would just like to explain what I mean. This female must be celebrated despite having many consorts and this female's consorts could probably be obtained due to lust. What I was trying to say was that unlike Aphrodite and Ishtar, this female *can* be lusty, but like, not evil, e.g. pursuing lovers who scorned them, flunging curses for nothing, etc" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10551" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2536" RevisionGUID="57271aca-ba37-4534-8197-bec1cb6b17d0" CreationDate="2017-04-15T22:53:56.517" UserId="2892" Comment="linked Kronos" Text="This answer will be evolving as I add to the list, but first I'll start with the most striking example:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **[The Erinyes][1]**: The [Orestia of Aeschylus][2] is a recounting of the pacification of the Erinyes in service of the advancement of civilization.  Nevertheless, their transformation to the Eumenides is demotion both in terms of status and power, in that their ancient domain and prerogatives are stripped from them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **Artemis**: A primal form of Artemis, [the Lady of Ephesus][3], was a mother goddess believed to be related to [Cybele][4]. Under the Olympian hegemony, Artemis may be said to have transformed from a &quot;Great Goddess&quot; with unrestrained power to the virgin daughter of the king of the gods.  (This may be a reflection of the curtailing of the power of [Gaia][5] by casting down her offspring in the [Titanomachy][6] and [Gigantomachy][7], and extends to all Olympian goddesses, with some small exception for Aphrodite in still having power over Zeus per his licentiousness.)   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **[Kronos][8]** suffered a heavy loss of status is being overthrown by his son Zeus.  This is of particular interest in that Zeus' primary preoccupation, even above dominion of the the earth, may be said to be avoiding the prophecy that Zeus himself would be overthrown by his own progeny.  Thus [Thetis][9] and [Metis][10].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erinyes&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oresteia&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemis#Artemis_as_the_Lady_of_Ephesus&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybele&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanomachy&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giants_(Greek_mythology)#The_Gigantomachy&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thetis#Marriage_to_Peleus&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metis_(mythology)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10552" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2509" RevisionGUID="ba068cc3-d04b-44cf-a4e5-1502c65a66fa" CreationDate="2017-04-15T23:25:23.010" UserId="2892" Comment="added 393 characters in body" Text="It is important to note the concept derives from the Greek, with Hesiod as the likely original textual source, and there it is definitively neuter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some confusion may arise from translations.  For instance:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;let Chaos re-echo the outcries of his grief.&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hercules Furens, trans. Frank Justus Miller][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Based on the Latin:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Resonet maesto clamore chaos&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Seneca, Hercules Furens, Rudolf Peiper, Gustav Richter, Ed., 1108-9][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So far, three Latin scholars have pointed out that it is difficult to definitively categorize the Roman conception of Chaos as masculine, although there may be masculine instances.  @Alex B. [gives an overview in this answer][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;@Joonas Ilmavirta provided a re-translation that does not require gender, more in keeping with how modern scholars, in my experience, try to approach:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; May chaos re-echo with a sorrowful cry.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Source][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For a more detailed explanation on both the grammar and gender of Chaos, see @C.M.Weimer's [answer here][5].  C.M., who is careful to include the Aristophanes example of Chaos giving birth, also presents an Hyginus example in Latin that suggests a masculine instance. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notable that in the above passage that &quot;chaos&quot; is not capitalized in the Peiper and Richter, which may be an indication of the concept as opposed to a direct personification. (There may variation in different versions of Greek and Latin source texts, which were preserved for millennia by transcription. [Ancient texts tend to have no punctuation or division between words][6], and lack of capitalization in this instance may have been a choice of these particular scholars.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Aristophanes, Chaos ([Χάους][7]), capitalized, singular and neuter. *(Note that the specific form of the word may also be adjectival, though not in this example, and in that form is plural. I'm not sure this can be taken as an indication that Chaos is [multipartite][8], but it's an interesting thought!)*  The [English O'Neil text may be found on Perseus][9] with the [Greek text linked][10].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Quintus Smyrnaeus, Fall of Troy (3.755)][11], about eight centuries after Aristophanes, uses the same form (Χάους). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Virgil reference ([Georgics 4. 345 ff][12]) uses &quot;[Chao][13]&quot;, here capitalized, which again may be either masculine or neuter.  (Note that the translator, J. B. Greenough, uses &quot;old Chaos&quot;, which seems to be poetic license, but avoids gender categorization.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod, in the [Theogony (line 116)][14] uses [Χάος][15], which again, is neuter in the intended nominative form, but in the adjectival form may be either masculine *or* feminine, which I mention only because I think it is interesting. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**This is an extraordinarily interesting question, and my viewpoint has continued to evolve the more I learn.  I think this definitely warrants more detailed study, but hopefully this evolving answer will provide at least a little insight into the issue.***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaHerculesFurens.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2007.01.0003%3Acard%3D1054&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://latin.stackexchange.com/a/4104/1407&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://latin.stackexchange.com/a/4097/1407&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://latin.stackexchange.com/a/4098/1407&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://latin.stackexchange.com/a/49&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=*xa%2Fous&amp;la=greek&amp;can=*xa%2Fous0&amp;prior=te&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0025:card=685&amp;i=1#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/multipartite&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0026%3Acard%3D685&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0025%3Acard%3D685&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0490%3Abook%3D3&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0058%3Abook%3D4%3Acard%3D333&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=Chao&amp;la=la&amp;can=chao0&amp;prior=aque&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.02.0059:book=4:card=333&amp;i=1&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D104&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=*xa%2Fos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=*xa%2Fos0&amp;prior=prw/tista&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0129:card=104&amp;i=1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10553" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2543" RevisionGUID="9972f915-a268-49a2-9091-2a16205e75d1" CreationDate="2017-04-16T02:54:05.827" UserId="3679" Text="I want to know how different cultures thought a god could be killed. So, I am trying to put together a list of gods who died in their mythology (or even have been threatened with death.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So far I only have a short list: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Baldr &#xD;&#xA; - Jesus &#xD;&#xA; - Quetzlcoatl &#xD;&#xA; - Izanami-no-Mikoto.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can you help me think of other gods/demigods/deities/etc. (from any tradition) who have been killed?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10554" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2543" RevisionGUID="9972f915-a268-49a2-9091-2a16205e75d1" CreationDate="2017-04-16T02:54:05.827" UserId="3679" Text="List of gods who have been killed in their myths? (List of Deicides)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10555" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2543" RevisionGUID="9972f915-a268-49a2-9091-2a16205e75d1" CreationDate="2017-04-16T02:54:05.827" UserId="3679" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10557" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2545" RevisionGUID="c9a9e8b9-ec33-471c-a908-0f16b9186b4d" CreationDate="2017-04-16T11:43:25.137" UserId="201" Text="&lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris#Early_mythology&quot;&gt;Osiris&lt;/a&gt; is killed in several Egyptian myths, coming back to life for varying lengths of time in some of them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The myth described Osiris as having been killed by his brother Set, who wanted Osiris' throne. Isis joined the fragmented pieces of Osiris, but the only body part missing was the phallus. Isis fashioned a golden phallus, and briefly brought Osiris back to life by use of a spell that she learned from her father. This spell gave her time to become pregnant by Osiris before he again died. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Plutarch recounts one version of the myth in which Set (Osiris' brother), along with the Queen of Ethiopia, conspired with 72 accomplices to plot the assassination of Osiris.[19] Set fooled Osiris into getting into a box, which Set then shut, sealed with lead, and threw into the Nile. Osiris' wife, Isis, searched for his remains until she finally found him embedded in a tamarisk tree trunk, which was holding up the roof of a palace in Byblos on the Phoenician coast. She managed to remove the coffin and open it, but Osiris was already dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In one version of the myth, she used a spell learned from her father and brought him back to life so he could impregnate her. Afterwards he died again and she hid his body in the desert. Months later, she gave birth to Horus. While she raised Horus, Set was hunting one night and came across the body of Osiris. Enraged, he tore the body into fourteen pieces and scattered them throughout the land. Isis gathered up all the parts of the body, except the penis (which had been eaten by a fish, the medjed) and bandaged them together for a proper burial. The gods were impressed by the devotion of Isis and resurrected Osiris as the god of the underworld. Because of his death and resurrection, Osiris was associated with the flooding and retreating of the Nile and thus with the crops along the Nile valley.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Diodorus Siculus gives another version of the myth in which Osiris was described as an ancient king who taught the Egyptians the arts of civilization, including agriculture, then travelled the world with his sister Isis, the satyrs, and the nine muses, before finally returning to Egypt. Osiris was then murdered by his evil brother Typhon, who was identified with Set. Typhon divided the body into twenty-six pieces, which he distributed amongst his fellow conspirators in order to implicate them in the murder. Isis and Hercules (Horus) avenged the death of Osiris and slew Typhon. Isis recovered all the parts of Osiris' body, except the phallus, and secretly buried them. She made replicas of them and distributed them to several locations, which then became centres of Osiris worship." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10558" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2546" RevisionGUID="90a71808-5c23-4c71-bc92-a09cb636dee7" CreationDate="2017-04-16T13:45:58.257" UserId="3682" Text="This kind of stuff: https://www.jstor.org/stable/25484361?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Articles ideally. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10559" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2546" RevisionGUID="90a71808-5c23-4c71-bc92-a09cb636dee7" CreationDate="2017-04-16T13:45:58.257" UserId="3682" Text="Are there any good Jungian studies of Irish myth ( not generic 'Celtic')" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10560" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2546" RevisionGUID="90a71808-5c23-4c71-bc92-a09cb636dee7" CreationDate="2017-04-16T13:45:58.257" UserId="3682" Text="|irish|symbolism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10561" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2533" RevisionGUID="30fbdc19-1008-42f4-a20e-a075ed830f96" CreationDate="2017-04-16T15:12:06.777" UserId="3676" Comment="The mead of poetry was made from the blood of the murdered Kvasir. Regular mead had been made previous to Kvasir's death." Text="Unlike the dwarves, who are actively involved in Norse myth (making artifacts, killing Kvasir and turning his blood into the mead of poetry, etc.) the alfs are on the sidelines for the most part. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They seem to be have been a noble or possible divine group, as they are often mentioned in poetry alongside the Aesir, or gods. (The cosmic poem [*Voluspa*][1] mentions them together, as in &quot;How fare the Aesir, how fare the elves&quot; as if they were somehow equivalent.) In [*Skirnirsmal*][2], too, Gerdr asks Skirnir if he is an alf, or from the Aesir or Vanir (the two groups of gods).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Snorri talks about][3] dark alfs and light alfs, but it's not clear if that was his own idea or part of Norse belief generally. They seem to have been a lot like Celtic fairies, who were morally ambivalent. This may have bothered Snorri, a Christian.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the *Prose Edda*, the god Freyr is ruler of the alfs, and was given Alfheim (the elves' home) as a tooth-gift, a Norse tradition. (Sort of like the tooth fairy in reverse, as you gave a gift for a baby's first tooth.) The poem [*Alvissmal*][4] gives various species' names for things, including some poetic ones from the alfs:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 12. &quot; 'Heaven' men call it, | 'The Height' the gods,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Wanes 'The Weaver of Winds';  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Giants 'The Up-World,' | elves 'The Fair-Roof,'  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The dwarfs 'The Dripping Hall.'&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you want to know more about elves in Norse myth and folklore, here are some references. The Alaric Hall one is actually his thesis, with only one chapter on Norse elves, so you can skip the rest. The other is a paper. They include a lot of folklore and saga material about the elves, which you might find interesting.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gunnell: “How Elvish were the Álfar?” in Constructing Nations, Reconstructing Myth: Essays in Honour of T. A. Shippey, Brepols Publishers: 111-30. ([pdf here][5])  &#xD;&#xA;Hall, Alaric (2007). Elves in Anglo-Saxon England: Matters of Belief, Health, Gender and Identity. Anglo-Saxon Studies 8. Woodbridge, Suffolk / Rochester, New York: Boydell Press, 2007. ([pdf here][6])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe03.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe07.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%B6kk%C3%A1lfar_and_Lj%C3%B3s%C3%A1lfar&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe12.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.academia.edu/16232734/How_Elvish_Were_the_%C3%81lfar_2_&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://theses.gla.ac.uk/4924/1/2004Hallphd.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10562" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2533" RevisionGUID="30fbdc19-1008-42f4-a20e-a075ed830f96" CreationDate="2017-04-16T15:12:06.777" Comment="Proposed by 3676 approved by 292 edit id of 434" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10563" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2547" RevisionGUID="03b01927-7783-4c2b-9f79-990b276af24d" CreationDate="2017-04-16T15:17:04.593" UserId="292" Text="The Irish god Donn was killed when his people, [the Milesians][1], invaded Ireland and [took it from][2] the Tuatha de Danann. He then became the god of the dead, who lived on Bull Rock (Tech Duinn) off the Kerry coast. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milesians_(Irish)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/lebor5.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10565" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2548" RevisionGUID="81bf466c-badc-4178-9f9a-03e96f297060" CreationDate="2017-04-17T16:18:19.243" UserId="666" Text="Is he?&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;The linked question was about one particular story - hardly enough to generalise from. I will, however, try to answer as best as possible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odin as a patron&#xD;&#xA;----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First, there is one very clear example of Odin being a patron of an outcast - the church thief [Ragvald Odinskarl][1], in late 15th century Stockholm. Of course, this is much to late to be taken as definitive proof that Odin was originally a god of outcasts - Ragvald could probably just as well have latched on to any other of the old gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we turn to a time and place where we have - fictionalised - accounts of outcasts, and some evidence of patron gods, i.e. saga-age Iceland, we do not find any example of any of the outcasts having any particular relationship with Odin - he is actually hardly mentioned at all outside of poetry. Thor seems to have been a much bigger deal, and for Frey there is [Hrafnkels saga Freysgoða][4]. One would think that as the sagas were often about poets, something with aspirations to be chieftains on Iceland, Odin would have been a decent choice of a patron. The sagas were, however, given final form by Christian writers, so it is possible that most passages painting the old belief in a flattering or even neutral light were exercised unless integral to the story. If the saga heroes does turn to someone for supernatural aid, it is usually a Christian figure.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odin as an outcast&#xD;&#xA;------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we turn to the mythology, there are a few aspects of Odin that does mark him as not totally respectable, even by Viking age standards. First and foremost - and this is how Loki attacks him in [Lokasenna][5] and thus something likely seen as very important - is that he practices [seiðr][6], which was seen as very unmanly, and according to Loki even went about dressed as a seeress and prophesied. The habit of wearing disguises, often turning up as a poor traveller, is something that comes up in many stories. Odin is a trickster, who prefers to take what he wants through guile, and seems to like to fool others even when doing so does not seem to confer any actual advantage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, he is the god of the hanged. This is, however, not linked to justice, but rather to sacrifice and death in general, and the seeking of knowledge from the dead. Odin does not offer comfort or aid to those about to be hanged, he is interested in learning what they know.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;The first part of the answer is mostly based on original sources or easily found knowledge. I confirmed that Odin is not mentioned often in the sagas of the Icelanders through [this search][2] of [sagadb.org][3]. A few sagas might be missed, but the important ones all seem to be included.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second part, and in particular the discussion of Odin as god of the hanged, is based on Gro Steinsland's treatment in *Fornnordisk religion*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragvald_Odenskarl&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.google.se/search?q=odin%20site%3Asagadb.org%2F&amp;ie=utf-8&amp;oe=utf-8&amp;client=firefox-b&amp;gfe_rd=cr&amp;ei=0OD0WNTuLuPk8Af-sLOoDw#q=odin%20site:sagadb.org/&amp;safe=off&amp;start=0&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://sagadb.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrafnkels_saga&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lokasenna&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sei%C3%B0r" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10566" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2549" RevisionGUID="ed37280a-edb4-485b-aed3-c2c8a5644d17" CreationDate="2017-04-19T10:39:14.660" UserId="742" Text="I have seen several early Jewish sources (e.g. Midrash Tanhuma, Beshalah 18) refer to the idea that a snake can kill a bird by just looking at its shadow. Has this ancient belief been documented elsewhere and what other sources are there to such an idea?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10567" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2549" RevisionGUID="ed37280a-edb4-485b-aed3-c2c8a5644d17" CreationDate="2017-04-19T10:39:14.660" UserId="742" Text="Where does it says that snakes can kill birds by looking at their shadow?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10568" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2549" RevisionGUID="ed37280a-edb4-485b-aed3-c2c8a5644d17" CreationDate="2017-04-19T10:39:14.660" UserId="742" Text="|mythical-creatures|comparative|animals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10570" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2551" RevisionGUID="19f7a0aa-5a0e-4ed9-953a-718fd1696068" CreationDate="2017-04-19T15:06:15.970" UserId="3691" Text="As I understand it, Izanagi is the original ruler of Yomi, however, when Susanoo was banished there, he became ruler.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Texts on Yomi are very scarce, and finding out exactly how he became ruler, and what later became of Izanagi, remain scarce. I'll do some investigating soon for you." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10571" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2543" RevisionGUID="ce663f62-69ef-4f12-b79b-6ba7dd69d5ce" CreationDate="2017-04-19T17:32:19.577" UserId="2892" Comment="I took out &quot;threatened with death&quot; to narrow the question.  It is a list, but useful, as it ties different traditions to a single idea. " Text="I want to know how different cultures thought a god could be killed. So, I am trying to put together a list of gods who died in their mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So far I only have a short list: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Baldr &#xD;&#xA; - Jesus &#xD;&#xA; - Quetzlcoatl &#xD;&#xA; - Izanami-no-Mikoto.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can you help me think of other gods/demigods/deities/etc. (from any tradition) who have been killed?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10572" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="463" RevisionGUID="3c895564-8f60-46b4-ba28-bc4b3e6e88ea" CreationDate="2017-04-19T17:35:44.673" UserId="3691" Comment="General clean up" Text="I am a little bit confused by the way the terms `giant`, `frost giant`, `jotun` (or _jötunn_), `ettin` and `troll` seem to overlap in Norse mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't understand if they refer to a single race or multiple (or even variations within the race). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It also adds to my confusion that not only some of the terms seem to refer to strikingly similar beings, but that some of these creatures are inconsistently depicted. The same beings can be portrayed both as both hideous or beautiful (I understand how good or evil characters could vary in appeance, but the physical appearance seems inconsistent for the whole &quot;race&quot;). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another example: the word &quot;giant&quot; would make you think that beings of this race were of a greater size (greater than average, being this &quot;greater than human size&quot; or &quot;greater than god/Æsir/Vanir size&quot;), but this doesn't seem to be a problem sometimes in order to interact (intermarrying, procreating, etc.) with other beings. That makes me think that the all those names depict different creatures, and not just one race, still, as pointed above, there doesn't seem to be consistency for the traits of each of these races..&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Could someone clarify if these are different classes of beings, the same class with different names, or clarify what they were an &quot;embodiment&quot; of (like, giant or troll is another way of depict a race as &quot;evil&quot;)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10573" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="463" RevisionGUID="3c895564-8f60-46b4-ba28-bc4b3e6e88ea" CreationDate="2017-04-19T17:35:44.673" Comment="Proposed by 3691 approved by 2774, -1 edit id of 436" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10574" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="463" RevisionGUID="ffb72454-59a9-4ad2-a962-419a1ed6ec6d" CreationDate="2017-04-19T17:35:44.673" UserId="2892" Comment="General clean up" Text="I am a little bit confused by the way the terms `giant`, `frost giant`, `jotun` (or _jötunn_), `ettin` and `troll` seem to overlap in Norse mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't understand if they refer to a single race or multiple (or even variations within the race). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It adds to my confusion that some of the terms seem to refer to strikingly similar beings, but that some of these creatures are inconsistently depicted. The same beings can be portrayed both as both hideous or beautiful (I understand how good or evil characters could vary in appearance, but the physical appearance seems inconsistent for the whole &quot;race&quot;). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another example: the word &quot;giant&quot; would make you think that beings of this race were of a greater size (greater than average, being this &quot;greater than human size&quot; or &quot;greater than god/Æsir/Vanir size&quot;), but this doesn't seem to be a problem sometimes in order to interact (intermarrying, procreating, etc.) with other beings. That makes me think that the all those names depict different creatures, and not just one race, still, as pointed above, there doesn't seem to be consistency for the traits of each of these races..&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Could someone clarify if these are different classes of beings, the same class with different names, or clarify what they were an &quot;embodiment&quot; of (like, giant or troll is another way of depict a race as &quot;evil&quot;)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10575" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2552" RevisionGUID="08760be0-5ac1-44dc-8a1e-dc103680fd3c" CreationDate="2017-04-19T18:55:41.090" UserId="2892" Text="As I recall, Lucifer comes from the Latin [lux][1] (light), thus as the &quot;star&quot; that hearkens the sunrise, you get &quot;[lucifer][2]&quot;, which combines lux and [fero][3] (bear or carry).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of how and when various terms were used, that will require some real scholarship, but here is my attempt at a primer: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cicero uses the names of the gods, including Venus, to refer to planets in [De Republica, 6.17][4]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt; The universe is composed of nine circles, or rather spheres, one of which is the heavenly one, and is exterior to all the rest, which it embraces; being itself the Supreme God, and bounding and containing the whole. In it are fixed those stars which revolve with never-varying courses. Below this are seven other spheres, which revolve in a contrary direction to that of the heavens. One of these is occupied by the globe which on earth they call Saturn. Next to that is the star of Jupiter, so benign and salutary to mankind. The third in order, is that fiery and terrible planet called Mars. Below this again, almost in the middle region, is the Sun — the leader, governor, the prince of the other luminaries; the soul of the world, which it regulates and illumines, being of such vast size that it pervades and gives light to all places. Then follow Venus and Mercury, which attend, as it were, on the Sun. &#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source:  [Oliver J. Thatcher, ed., The Library of Original Sources (Milwaukee: University Research Extension Co., 1907), Vol. III: The Roman World, pp. 216-241 (with unlisted modifications)][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Note: The source of the English is problematic, as it is not an academic site, but the translation jibes with my reading of the Latin.  The planet/god names are the actual vocabulary in the linked Latin source text.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, Cicero also notes a distinction in the name of the planet depending on when it appears:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Infima est quinque errantium terraeque proxuma stella Veneris, quae Φωσφόρος Graece Lucifer Latine dicitur cum antegreditur solem, cum subsequitur autem Ἕσπερος;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [M. Tullius Cicero, de Natura Deorum &#xD;&#xA;O. Plasberg, Ed.][6]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm waiting on vetting from Stack Latin before I post a translation, but what Cicero is essentially saying is that Venus is known as Phosphoros in Greek and Lucifer in Latin when it precedes the sun, and as Hesperos when it follows the sun.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, Venus and Lucifer/Hesperos may be interchangeable in Latin texts, at least per this initial, cursory inquiry.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=lux&amp;la=la&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=lucifer&amp;la=la#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=fero&amp;la=la#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Cic.%20Rep.%206.17.17&amp;lang=original&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.constitution.org/rom/republica6.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2007.01.0037%3Abook%3D2%3Asection%3D53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10576" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2552" RevisionGUID="bd5762d5-20aa-44c4-83ab-489133d1e570" CreationDate="2017-04-19T19:14:30.733" UserId="2892" Comment="added 43 characters in body" Text="As I recall, Lucifer comes from the Latin [lux][1] (light), thus as the &quot;star&quot; that hearkens the sunrise, you get &quot;[lucifer][2]&quot;, which combines lux and [fero][3] (bear or carry).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of how and when various terms were used, that will require some real scholarship, but here is my attempt at a primer: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cicero uses the names of the gods, including Venus, to refer to planets in [De Republica, 6.17][4]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt; The universe is composed of nine circles, or rather spheres, one of which is the heavenly one, and is exterior to all the rest, which it embraces; being itself the Supreme God, and bounding and containing the whole. In it are fixed those stars which revolve with never-varying courses. Below this are seven other spheres, which revolve in a contrary direction to that of the heavens. One of these is occupied by the globe which on earth they call Saturn. Next to that is the star of Jupiter, so benign and salutary to mankind. The third in order, is that fiery and terrible planet called Mars. Below this again, almost in the middle region, is the Sun — the leader, governor, the prince of the other luminaries; the soul of the world, which it regulates and illumines, being of such vast size that it pervades and gives light to all places. Then follow Venus and Mercury, which attend, as it were, on the Sun. &#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source:  [Oliver J. Thatcher, ed., The Library of Original Sources (Milwaukee: University Research Extension Co., 1907), Vol. III: The Roman World, pp. 216-241 (with unlisted modifications)][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Note: The source of the English is problematic, as it is not an academic site, but the translation jibes with my reading of the Latin.  The planet/god names are the actual vocabulary in the linked Latin source text.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, Cicero also notes a distinction in the name of the planet depending on when it appears:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Infima est quinque errantium terraeque proxuma stella Veneris, quae Φωσφόρος Graece Lucifer Latine dicitur cum antegreditur solem, cum subsequitur autem Ἕσπερος;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [M. Tullius Cicero, de Natura Deorum &#xD;&#xA;O. Plasberg, Ed.][6]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Essentially: &quot;&quot;Of the five that orbit closest to earth, the star Venus, known as Phosphoros in Greek, Lucifer in Latin speech when it precedes the sun, but Hesperos if it follows the sun.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, Venus and Lucifer/Hesperos may be interchangeable in Latin texts, at least per this initial, cursory inquiry.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of a god called Lucifer, I'll have to do more research, and will amend accordingly. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=lux&amp;la=la&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=lucifer&amp;la=la#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=fero&amp;la=la#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Cic.%20Rep.%206.17.17&amp;lang=original&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.constitution.org/rom/republica6.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2007.01.0037%3Abook%3D2%3Asection%3D53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10577" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2552" RevisionGUID="b4cf8eb7-ba8f-4674-a2c3-a2803b0f389f" CreationDate="2017-04-19T19:33:02.943" UserId="2892" Comment="added 172 characters in body" Text="As I recall, Lucifer comes from the Latin [lux][1] (light), thus as the &quot;star&quot; that hearkens the sunrise, you get &quot;[lucifer][2]&quot;, which combines lux and [fero][3] (bear or carry).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of how and when various terms were used, that will require some real scholarship, but here is my attempt at a primer: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cicero uses the names of the gods, including Venus, to refer to planets in [De Republica, 6.17][4]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt; The universe is composed of nine circles, or rather spheres, one of which is the heavenly one, and is exterior to all the rest, which it embraces; being itself the Supreme God, and bounding and containing the whole. In it are fixed those stars which revolve with never-varying courses. Below this are seven other spheres, which revolve in a contrary direction to that of the heavens. One of these is occupied by the globe which on earth they call Saturn. Next to that is the star of Jupiter, so benign and salutary to mankind. The third in order, is that fiery and terrible planet called Mars. Below this again, almost in the middle region, is the Sun — the leader, governor, the prince of the other luminaries; the soul of the world, which it regulates and illumines, being of such vast size that it pervades and gives light to all places. Then follow Venus and Mercury, which attend, as it were, on the Sun. &#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source:  [Oliver J. Thatcher, ed., The Library of Original Sources (Milwaukee: University Research Extension Co., 1907), Vol. III: The Roman World, pp. 216-241 (with unlisted modifications)][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Note: The source of the English is problematic, as it is not an academic site, but the translation jibes with my reading of the Latin.  The planet/god names are the actual vocabulary in the linked Latin source text.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, Cicero also notes a distinction in the name of the planet depending on when it appears:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Infima est quinque errantium terraeque proxuma stella Veneris, quae Φωσφόρος Graece Lucifer Latine dicitur cum antegreditur solem, cum subsequitur autem Ἕσπερος;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [M. Tullius Cicero, de Natura Deorum &#xD;&#xA;O. Plasberg, Ed.][6]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Essentially: &quot;&quot;Of the five that orbit closest to earth, the star Venus is known as Phosphoros in Greek, and in the Latin tongue is called Lucifer when it precedes the sun, but Hesperos if it follows the sun.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[See [@Brianpck 's analysis of the passage on Stack Latin for more details][7].]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, Venus and Lucifer/Hesperos may be interchangeable in Latin texts, at least per this initial, cursory inquiry.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of a god called Lucifer, I'll have to do more research, and will amend accordingly. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=lux&amp;la=la&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=lucifer&amp;la=la#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=fero&amp;la=la#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Cic.%20Rep.%206.17.17&amp;lang=original&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.constitution.org/rom/republica6.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2007.01.0037%3Abook%3D2%3Asection%3D53&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://latin.stackexchange.com/a/4152/1407" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10578" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1740" RevisionGUID="d2b1313c-c158-4c75-968b-9a81e7273c5e" CreationDate="2017-04-19T21:24:40.337" UserId="2892" Comment="Took out maiden goddesses b/c this is in relation to Venus, but added astronomy, as there are astronomy texts that touch on mythology" Text="|greek|myth-identification|roman|astrology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10579" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2553" RevisionGUID="38b3f168-0ce2-4419-9445-db7daa4f4664" CreationDate="2017-04-20T08:57:03.063" UserId="3495" Text="Reading the Wikipedia article on the Sampo, a mythical object central to the Finnish Kalevala saga, I was struck by an apparent contradiction. The translation of the object's description seemed, to me, to be very clear:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; On one side the flour is grinding,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; On another salt is making,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; On a third is money forging,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And the lid is many-colored.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Well the Sampo grinds when finished,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; To and fro the lid in rocking,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Grinds one measure at the day-break,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Grinds a measure fit for eating,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Grinds a second for the market,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Grinds a third one for the store-house. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This, then, is presumably a variant of the common mythical theme of a never-ending stew pot such as the Dagda's cauldron. An item that produces the essentials of Iron Age life (food, salt, money) in inexhaustible quantities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, elsewhere in the Wikipedia article (and in other papers on the subject) scholars state that they are unable to agree on what the Sampo is. Some theories put forward include:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- A world pillar or world tree like Yggdrasil&#xD;&#xA;- Some kind of navigational tool&#xD;&#xA;- A treasure chest&#xD;&#xA;- A coin die&#xD;&#xA;- A shield&#xD;&#xA;- A relic of the saints.&#xD;&#xA;- A mill&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Only the last one fits the given translation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where, then, does this confusion arise? Is this a matter of allegory, of what the Sampo represents in the saga? Or is this some problem with a difficult translation from the original language. What I've read suggests a mixture of both, but I don't have the expertise to untangle the riddle." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10580" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2553" RevisionGUID="38b3f168-0ce2-4419-9445-db7daa4f4664" CreationDate="2017-04-20T08:57:03.063" UserId="3495" Text="Why is there confusion about what the Sampo from the Kalevala is?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10581" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2553" RevisionGUID="38b3f168-0ce2-4419-9445-db7daa4f4664" CreationDate="2017-04-20T08:57:03.063" UserId="3495" Text="|kalevala|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10582" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1745" RevisionGUID="9bff30b8-ce5d-4ffc-ab0b-5f17abcc7766" CreationDate="2017-04-20T11:07:42.667" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="Examples of this do not seem to especially abound. Perhaps unsurprisingly, people tend to portray God or the gods to be whatever colour they themselves are, for better or worse. Nonetheless, as you have observed, such a phenomenon is not out of the question. Your mention of black Madonnas makes me think of [![St Mauritius][1]][1] the legendary Roman soldier St Mauritius [Maurice], who is remarkably popular in Europe (especially Switzerland), being the patron saint of Austria, as well as of one Spanish city, two cities in Germany and four places in Italy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Conversely St George is the patron saint of Ethiopia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## AZTECA &amp; MAYA ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In late Aztec mythology the deities Ometecuhtli and Omecihuatl had four sons who were called the Tezcatlipocas, &quot;Smoking Mirrors,&quot; who created all the other gods, as well as the world and humankind. Each Tezcatlipoca was a different colour. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first, simply called Tezcatlipoca, was the **Black Tezcatlipoca**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Quetzalcóatl, often occurring as the twin of the first one,  was the **White Tezcatlipoca**. Regarding him and a few other pre-Columbian deities in the Americas there have been controversial theories claiming that their &quot;whiteness&quot; is a reference to Europeans (or even Atlanteans) whose arrival in the so-called New World antedates that of Columbus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The third was called Huitzilopochtli, who was the **Blue Tezcatlipoca**; and the last was Xipe Totec, the **Red Tezcatlipoca**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Essentially the same formula and myth recurs among the Maya with the Bacabs, who are the four sons of Itzamna and Ixchel, each placed by their grandfather the supreme god Hunab-Ku at one of the four cardinal points of the compass to support the structure of the sky. Each Bacab was a different colour: the Western one was **black**, the Northern one **white**, the Southern **yellow** and the Eastern **red**. These, however, are described as &quot;iguana-like,&quot; so perhaps they don't count, unless perhaps they are iguana-like humanoids. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## BUDDHISM from China ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The four Tezcatlipocas and the four Bacabs bear a striking resemblance to an ancient Indian concept of four deities who each ruled over and guarded one of the four cardinal compass-point regions of the world. Hinduism and Buddhism arose from the same region, from peoples who venerated the same gods. In Chinese Buddhism these four world guardians, who would be readily recognisable to Hindus, are now called Sì Dà Tiānwáng, the &quot;[Four Great Heavenly Kings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Heavenly_Kings).&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![North, South, East &amp; West Kings][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Kubera [Kuvera], also known as Vaiśravaṇa, is the North King, who&#xD;&#xA;   rules over daemons called the Kinnaras and the Yakṣas. He is&#xD;&#xA;   **yellow**.&#xD;&#xA; - Virūḍhaka is the South King, who rules the Kumbhāṇḍas. He is&#xD;&#xA;   **blue**, although sometimes depicted or described as **green**.&#xD;&#xA; - Dhṛtarāṣṭra [Dhritarashtra] is the East King, who rules over&#xD;&#xA;   creatures called the Gandharvas. He is **white**.&#xD;&#xA; - Virūpākṣa is the West King, who reigns over the Nāgas. He is **red**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## NORSEMEN ##&#xD;&#xA;**The Svartálfar**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his 2002 essay [The Aesir and the Elves](http://www.germanicmythology.com/original/AesirandElves.pdf), William P. Reaves references the close association of the Æsir (who we know for sure to be deities venerated by the Norsemen) with the Álfar, &quot;Elves,&quot; who we know tantalisingly little about but who it seems were a race of divinities related to both the Æsir and the Dwarves. According to John Lindow's *Norse Mythology: A Guide to the Gods, Heroes, Rituals, and Beliefs*, there are references in mediaeval Icelandic tradition to something called the *álfablót*, which translates to something like a &quot;sacrifice to the elves.&quot; Based on this it seems that the Álfar were venerated (or &quot;worshipped&quot;) in Scandinavia at some point. In Hávamál 159-160 &quot;both Æsir and Álfar&quot; are explicitly identified as *tíva*, &quot;gods.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Snorri Sturluson is the only pre-modern mythographer who mentions any distinct classifications among the Elves, in that he says that some of them are &quot;bright&quot; or &quot;white,&quot; and even dwell in heavens which are above and beyond the Æsir's home Asgarð;  while some Elves are &quot;dark&quot; or &quot;black.&quot; Lindow notes two instances of Snorri saying that the Dwarves live in Svartálfaheim, &quot;Black-Elf World/Home.&quot; In Skáldskaparmál 35, Loki is forced to swear that he will get the Svartálfar (*Black Elves*, who in the Gylfaginning are &quot;blacker than pitch&quot;) to replace the golden hair of Þórr's [Thor's] wife Sif, which Loki has maliciously or mischievously shorn off, with new locks that could attach themselves to her scalp and continue growing indistinguishable from ordinary hair. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The very next description is confusing in that it then has a family of Dwarves called Ívaldasynir (*Ívaldi's Sons*: a company name?), fulfilling this role of hair-supply. Reaves makes the case that Ívaldasynir are therefore Black Elves (= Elven Dwarves, or Dwarfen Elves?). They are significantly integral characters to the mythology since they end up creating not just a new head of resplendent hair for the thunder-god's wife but also some of the most important weapons and artifacts of the Æsir.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Vanir (&amp; the 'Whitest' of the Æsir)**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Heimdallr, the watchman of the Æsir's home, Asgarð, bears some unusual features like (presumably natural) golden teeth, which give him the epithet Gullintanni. He is also, in the Gylfaginning, called *Hvíti Ás*, the &quot;White Ás&quot; [*Æsir* is plural of *Ás*], as though to suggest either that the Æsir are not themselves white or that Heimdallr's whiteness is really peculiar (starkly **milk**-white?). The poem *Þrymskviða* tantalises yet further in describing him as *Hvítastr Ása*, the &quot;Whitest Ás,&quot; followed immediately by the statement that he possesses great foreknowledge &quot;like other Vanir.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Vanir were a tribe of gods who at some point rivalled the Æsir but were eventually assimilated by them, so that we have originally Van [*singular of* Vanir] characters like the god Njörð and his children becoming Æsir. It is most unusual, however, for a son of Óðinn [Odin], the chiefest of the Æsir, to be described as a Van, especially in the same passage that he has just been called an Ás.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The solution to this might be in Heimdallr's maternity, which *per se* is an anomaly in Norse mythology, as he is given his birth by nine mothers whose names are provided but whose origin is never explained. Conveniently, the sea-giant Ægir has nine daughters. *In*conveniently, however, their names don't match those of Heimdallr's mothers. An alternative interpretation for the identification of the nine is that they are the daughters of the giant Geirröðr. The myths explicitly mention only two daughters of this giant but both their names are included in the list of Heimdallr's mothers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps the discrepancies can be avoided altogether by linking the possible allusion to Heimdallr being a Van with his strange birth situation. Maybe the nine mothers of this Ás were actually Vanir. This would not preclude them from still being giantesses, as a few Vanir appear to have been just that. Pushing the link to a further conclusion could indicate that the Vanir were &quot;whiter&quot; than the Æsir. Maybe they were more immediate descendants of the frost giants and thus were literally snow-white(?). At any rate it would take us some distance beyond Lindow's resignation to the fact that &#xD;&#xA;&gt; There are no indications of Heimdall's membership among the vanir. Nor has his whiteness ever been explained. (2001:170)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If this snowy Vanir theory is at all close to the mark, I suppose it would beg the question of what complexion the Scandinavian/Norse worshippers of the Æsir and the Vanir perceived *themselves* as having. In a lot of scholarship regarding Eurasian religions and myths, particularly in the 19th &amp; 20th centuries, it has been quite popular to perceive the stories about conflicts between older deities and newer ones as indicating waves of invasions by settlers who usurped and assimilated indigenous cultures and stories into their own. If there is any merit to that, perhaps this is what the war between the Vanir and the Æsir represents: friction among at least two different people-groups. This, however, cuts against the usual grain of theories in this field, because in this case it would be a &quot;white[r]&quot; population being invaded by a &quot;dark[er]&quot; group.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding the Elves who live above and beyond the Æsir, the Gylfaginning says that they are brighter than the sun to look at, which resonates with Benjamin Thorpe's translation of Heimdallr as *hvítastr:* &quot;**brightest**&quot; rather than &quot;whitest,&quot; whatever that may mean. Maybe the Vanir are deities who are both more Elven and more Gigantic in nature while the Elves, especially the Svartálfar, are the familial link between the Æsir and the Dwarves.       &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hel** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Gylfaginning, Hel, or Hela, the gigantic goddess who houses and rules over the dead in the northern end of the universe, is described as half dark-blue (or blue-black) and half &quot;flesh-coloured.&quot; This is generally interpreted to mean that half of her body has decayed (or suffered hypothermia in the frigidity of her ice-cold realm?), so perhaps this doesn't count as something exotically different from the complexion of the Norsemen, as Snorri is here probably imagining the same kind of discolouration that would happen to the average mediaeval Scandinavian corpse. I mention it mainly to indicate just one more instance of a Norse deity with a feature that is &quot;fancier than red hair.&quot; Speaking of which, by the way, one of the daughters of Ægir is named Blóðughadda, &quot;Bloody-Hair.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## ANCIENT GREECE ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Depending on which ancient Greek writer you consult, such as Herodotus, several if not most of the deities whom the Greeks worshipped had been imported into their country by Egyptians, Libyans, &quot;Ethiopians,&quot; Phoenicians, Syrians and Mesopotamians in general. The myths themselves bear this out. An example of this is the African versions of Zeus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of these versions is mentioned by Lycophron and John Tzetzes, who call him Zeus Aithiops [Aethiops], a word which has come to be interpreted in a few different ways. It could mean &quot;Glowing,&quot; &quot;Fiery-Eyed&quot; or &quot;Burnt-Faced.&quot; The latter two translations can both be interpreted as references to dark complexion, such as that of the inhabitants of South Sudan, whom the ancient Greeks called *Aithiopes*. &quot;Fiery-Eyed&quot; has sometimes been interpreted as a reference to the stark contrast between the dark skin of the South Sudanese and the whiteness of their eyes' sclerae. William Smith's *Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology* translates Zeus Aithiops as &quot;Black Zeus&quot; and says that he was worshipped as far afield from Africa as the island of Khios, in the middle of the Aegean Sea. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/tmIky.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/bRkd4.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10584" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2553" RevisionGUID="9b5949ce-68b6-4b38-a570-0ae04e7b7649" CreationDate="2017-04-20T18:16:20.583" UserId="3495" Comment="edited body" Text="Reading the Wikipedia article on the Sampo, a mythical object central to the Finnish Kalevala saga, I was struck by an apparent contradiction. The translation of the object's description seemed, to me, to be very clear:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; On one side the flour is grinding,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; On another salt is making,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; On a third is money forging,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And the lid is many-colored.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Well the Sampo grinds when finished,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; To and fro the lid in rocking,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Grinds one measure at the day-break,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Grinds a measure fit for eating,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Grinds a second for the market,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Grinds a third one for the store-house. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This, then, is presumably a variant of the common mythical theme of a never-ending stew pot such as the Dagda's cauldron. An item that produces the essentials of Iron Age life (food, salt, money) in inexhaustible quantities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, elsewhere in the Wikipedia article (and in other papers on the subject) scholars state that they are unable to agree on what the Sampo is. Some theories put forward include:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- A world pillar or world tree like Yggdrasil&#xD;&#xA;- Some kind of navigational tool&#xD;&#xA;- A treasure chest&#xD;&#xA;- A coin die&#xD;&#xA;- A shield&#xD;&#xA;- A relic of the saints.&#xD;&#xA;- A mill&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Only the last one fits the given translation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where, then, does this confusion arise? Is this a matter of allegory, of what the Sampo represents in the saga? Or is this some problem with a difficult translation from the original language? What I've read suggests a mixture of both, but I don't have the expertise to untangle the riddle." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10585" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2554" RevisionGUID="fd6a4ed1-b50a-4420-bb3d-c65146733e46" CreationDate="2017-04-20T18:35:18.523" UserId="2892" Text="**This is just to supplement @HDE 226868 's [excellent answer][1]:**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aristotle, quoting Hesiod, notes the implication that Love (attraction) must be the prime force of creation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Hesiod says, “ First of all things was Chaos made, and then/Broad-bosomed Earth . . ./And Love, the foremost of immortal beings,” thus implying that there must be in the world some cause to move things and combine them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Hesiod... assumed Love or Desire as a first principle in things.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Aristot. Met. 1.984b](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0052%3Abook%3D1%3Asection%3D984b)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aristotle uses literally calls love *([erota](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29%2Frws&amp;la=greek&amp;can=e%29%2Frws0))* and desire *([epithumian](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29piqu_m-i%2Fa&amp;la=greek&amp;can=e%29piqu_m-i%2Fa0))* the origin *([arkein](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29rxh%2F&amp;la=greek&amp;can=a%29rxh%2F0))* of all things *([ouseen](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ou%29%3Dsin&amp;la=greek&amp;can=ou%29%3Dsin1&amp;prior=toi=s&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0051:book=1:section=984b&amp;i=2))*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, this is a philosophical conception of myth, and may be related to the Taoist idea that &quot;out of two came all the myriad things&quot;, which is also a description of the symbolic system of the I-Ching.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The implication is that there must be two primordial things, such as Gaia&#xD;&#xA;and Tartarus, as HDE notes, although the type of generative interaction ([combinatorial][2]) may be more easily conceptualized in the subsequent unions, and offspring, of Gaia and Ouranos.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/1241/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combinatorics" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10586" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2553" RevisionGUID="c3344b7b-5bc3-41e7-ab41-5fe4196aa767" CreationDate="2017-04-20T20:26:44.403" UserId="3495" Comment="added 9 characters in body" Text="Reading the Wikipedia article on the Sampo, a mythical object central to the Finnish Kalevala saga, I was struck by an apparent contradiction. The translation of the object's description seemed, to me, to be very clear:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; On one side the flour is grinding,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; On another salt is making,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; On a third is money forging,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And the lid is many-colored.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Well the Sampo grinds when finished,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; To and fro the lid in rocking,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Grinds one measure at the day-break,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Grinds a measure fit for eating,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Grinds a second for the market,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Grinds a third one for the store-house. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This, then, is presumably a variant of the common mythical theme of the horn of plenty, such as the Dagda's cauldron. An item that produces the essentials of Iron Age life (in this case food, salt, money) in inexhaustible quantities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, elsewhere in the Wikipedia article (and in other papers on the subject) scholars state that they are unable to agree on what the Sampo is. Some theories put forward include:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- A world pillar or world tree like Yggdrasil&#xD;&#xA;- Some kind of navigational tool&#xD;&#xA;- A treasure chest&#xD;&#xA;- A coin die&#xD;&#xA;- A shield&#xD;&#xA;- A relic of the saints.&#xD;&#xA;- A mill&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Only the last one fits the given translation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where, then, does this confusion arise? Is this a matter of allegory, of what the Sampo represents in the saga? Or is this some problem with a difficult translation from the original language? What I've read suggests a mixture of both, but I don't have the expertise to untangle the riddle." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10587" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2459" RevisionGUID="18d0a140-3362-425d-8369-1e32d0063d22" CreationDate="2017-04-20T21:14:35.267" UserId="2892" Comment="Added a not on the Hindu tradition." Text="It would be helpful if you could link to the article.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;High level answer without seeing the article would be the [Upanishads][1] for India, and the [Book of Songs][2] for China.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of the [Mesopotamian material][3], that is very old indeed, but difficult to link directly to existing cultures.  Nevertheless, the [Gilgamesh][4] is believed to be the earliest surviving work of literature and the first epic. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is worth noting that in the Chinese tradition, mythology and history are conflated until the 20th century, so much of the mythology comes out of histories by authors like [Sima Qian][5] and [Chen Shou][6].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Chinese tradition is quite distinct in that the gods are relatively minor in the literary canon, which tends to be focused on sages and the conduct.  Figures such as [Lao Tzu][7] are mythologized and become gods. The Book of Songs is said to have been compiled by [Ji Dan][8], the sage credited with the concept of the [Mandate of Heaven][9], and subsequently deified.  Lord Guan is elevated not for his military prowess so much as his impeccable conduct that made him a figure of veneration.  Xuande, whose restoration of the Han is the subject of the [Romance of the Three Kingdoms][10], can be said to be the the central figure in Chinese mythology, again, esteemed for his impeccable conduct. (Compare to [Lü Bu][11] who, despite his legendary martial prowess, dies an ignominious death.) In the warrior epic [Water Margin][12], the central figure is [Timely Rain][13] (about the best epithet one could have in the agricultural society of China, where rain is the domain of dragons, and the name can be understood as the greatest of good fortunes). Timely Rain is the weakest fighters among the [Outlaws of the Marsh][14], but becomes the leader because the heroes all venerate his conduct and sagacity. He fights with a [jian][15], but is also a scholar.  (Jin Yong titled one of his [Wuxia][16] novels [The Book and the Sword][17], which can be taken as a metaphor for the Chinese tradition.)  [Huangdi][18], the Yellow Emperor, is a scholar and a sage, credited with innovation such as the calendar and mathematics. Similarly, his grandson, [Emperor Yu][19], who developed a system of flood control, regarded as the single most important factor in the development of Chinese civilization, which is continuous over 3000 years.  In this sense, the Book of Songs leads to a mythological tradition that is quite distinct.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the Indian material, you may find the religious texts difficult to get through, due to the repetitions, but William Buck has excellent translations of the  [Vālmīki Ramayana][20] and [Mahabarata][21] specifically adapted for Westerners interested in the stories. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On element that distinguishes Hindu mythology is that the Hinduism is still the dominant religion in the culture.  This is distinct in the West, where Christianity supplanted the earlier, polytheistic traditions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanishads&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_of_Poetry&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamia&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Records_of_the_Grand_Historian&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Records_of_the_Three_Kingdoms&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laozi&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Zhou&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandate_of_Heaven#Transition_between_the_Shang_and_the_Zhou&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_of_the_Three_Kingdoms&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%BC_Bu#Downfall_and_death&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_Margin&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_Jiang&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/108_Stars_of_Destiny&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jian&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuxia&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_and_the_Sword&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Emperor#Achievements&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yu_the_Great#Great_Yu_controls_the_waters&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/141152.Ramayana&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/28198285-o-mahabarata" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10588" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2555" RevisionGUID="6949537f-b6db-4eae-b7c8-21fcf214b992" CreationDate="2017-04-20T22:05:49.610" UserId="2892" Text="I value creative insight in fields that involve analysis of creative work mythology, art, and literature.)  Academic scholarship is important, no doubt, but neither is it the whole picture.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although Graves was not assigned material when I was at University, but neither was reading him discouraged.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Graves Translations**: I find the value of The Greek Myths to be in the way Graves compresses all of the different versions of the stories into a single narrative.  (This may be what some believe to be &quot;not faithful&quot;).  He cites all of his sources, thus the actual texts can be utilized for scholarship purposes.  (This is how I use Graves--his index is incredibly robust. It's generally my first stop running down source material, and definitely more reliable than non-peer reviewed internet sources.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Graves' Analysis**: It was largely based on Frazer and Jung, and although these schools of thought have rightly diminished as the academic field has advanced, their ideas and contributions are nevertheless important.  (Frazer was a trailblazer, and Jung is useful from the standpoint of symbolic logic.)  Although Graves analysis is very interesting, I don't use it for scholarly analysis. The lasting value is that many of the most significant literary artists of the 20th century were also influence by Frazer, and these artists, (Yeats and TS Eliot, for instance) also commented on mythology in their poetry, plays and prose.  The stature of such artists is immense, and places them in the tradition alongside the great poets of antiquity, although this is understood as the Literary Canon as opposed to the Mythological Canon.  Nevertheless, The Golden Bough is itself a mythology, and will always be relevant in that it assists in understanding proper poets and storytellers who were influence in it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Name Meanings**: I was speaking to a Professor of Linguistics recently who pointed out that in instances where we don't have textual confirmation of a name meaning, everyone, including scholars, are guessing.  This is an area where I might consider Graves' insights to be most valuable--he was a poet and novelist, thus his business may be said to be &quot;profound insights&quot;. (i.e. any creator worth their salt has discarded more insights than they have used, by orders of magnitude.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**For Classical Scholarship:** Use Graves only to get an overview of the source material and to run down sources.  Do not use his commentary, but value his index.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**For Art:** Graves can be incredibly valuable for artists and creators, because his commentary is fruitful ground for the imagination, and useful for generating insights about modern literature. His commentary may be taken as a form of non-canonical mythology from a very fine and serious literary artist.&#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10589" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2555" RevisionGUID="d1decdff-caed-441a-b1a1-87a8e70e0463" CreationDate="2017-04-20T22:16:03.020" UserId="2892" Comment="added 806 characters in body" Text="I value creative insight in fields that involve analysis of creative work mythology, art, and literature.)  Academic scholarship is important, no doubt, but neither is it the entire picture.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although Graves was not assigned material when I was at University, neither was reading him discouraged.  Although his material may not be cited in academic literature, he was held in high regard by many scholars personally. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Graves Translations**: I find the value of The Greek Myths to be in the way Graves compresses all of the different versions of the stories into a single narrative.  (This may be what some believe to be &quot;not faithful&quot;).  He cites all of his sources, thus the actual texts can be utilized for scholarship purposes.  (This is how I use Graves--his index is incredibly robust. It's generally my first stop running down source material, and definitely more reliable than non-peer reviewed internet sources.)  The prose has great literary merit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Graves' Analysis**: It was largely based on Frazer and Jung, and although these schools of thought have rightly diminished as the academic field has advanced, their ideas and contributions are nevertheless important.  (Frazer was a trailblazer, and Jung is useful from the standpoint of symbolic logic.)  Although Graves analysis is very interesting, I don't use it for scholarly analysis. The lasting value is that many of the most significant literary artists of the 20th century were also influence by Frazer, and these artists, (Yeats and TS Eliot, for instance) also commented on mythology in their poetry, plays and prose.  The stature of such artists is immense, and places them in the tradition alongside the great poets of antiquity, although this is understood as the Literary Canon as opposed to the Mythological Canon.  Nevertheless, The Golden Bough is itself a mythology, and will always be relevant in that it assists in understanding proper poets and storytellers who were influence in it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Name Meanings**: I was speaking to a Professor of Linguistics recently who pointed out that in instances where we don't have textual confirmation of a name meaning, everyone, including scholars, are guessing.  This is an area where I might consider Graves' insights to be most valuable--he was a poet and novelist, thus his business may be said to be &quot;profound insights&quot;. (i.e. any creator worth their salt has discarded more insights than they have used, by orders of magnitude.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**For Classical Scholarship:** Use Graves only to get an overview of the source material and to run down sources.  Do not use his commentary, but value his index.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**For Art:** Graves can be incredibly valuable for artists and creators, because his commentary is fruitful ground for the imagination, and useful for generating insights about modern literature. His commentary may be taken as a form of non-canonical mythology from a very fine and serious literary artist.&#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;For some context, compare Pope's version of Homer to modern translators such as [Lattimore][1].  Fidelity to the actual grammar and vocabulary is a fairly new development, and well wielded by modern translators, but was not the standard to be aspired to until perhaps Lattimore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**When it comes to translation, Lattimore is my guide, greatly revered.  But when it comes to creative insight, Graves lights the path.**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also of interest: [The White Goddess][2] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richmond_Lattimore&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Goddess" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10590" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="2543" RevisionGUID="f4e1f298-fb87-4939-9531-9f6411a8654c" CreationDate="2017-04-20T22:32:23.823" UserId="-1" Comment="104" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:110,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;John Demetriou&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:967,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;bleh&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:666,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;andejons&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:62,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Hamlet&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="10591" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2556" RevisionGUID="524f8424-e80e-4979-aa3a-582f47f63c74" CreationDate="2017-04-21T03:59:10.603" UserId="3694" Text="The thing about this fragment is that half of it is dual-layered, and the rest is poetic.  How it is being read above (that he ate an actual heart, got physically pregnant, etc.) is utterly at odds with poetic license, metaphor, and the skaldic love of wordplay and [kennings][1]- and thus missing what IMO are the *most likely* interpretations of the verse.  To grasp its intricacies, let's take it piece-by-piece.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**First, what is it that Loki eats?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The woman's heart; in one translation, it is 'the thought-stone'.  In a low-tech society, the thought and evidence would be that the body produces stones - kidney stones, gallstones, all this sort of thing.  So what would a thought-stone be?  The product of the mind, of thinking - or, considered carefully, 'ideas'.  Linked with the heart, this makes them what would be called *closely held* ideas - strong beliefs.  That the heart is half-cooked - or in perhaps more modern and cutting terminology, 'half-baked' - may well be important, with all of its connotations of 'poorly thought-out', or simply 'bad' or 'crazy'.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Next, what's up with that fire?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Well, the woman's heart/thought-stone is found 'on a fire' made from a linden tree.  In Norse belief, the linden tree is sacred, female, and linked with mercy (as the oak tree is linked with stern-ness); village discussions, hearings, and judgements are given from under the village linden tree.  If the heart indicates ideas, then ideas cooked 'on a linden-fire' would be thoughts developed (cooked) while sitting at judgement (under the linden-tree).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**So then who's the woman?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Well, the above very strongly indicates that the woman is considered a leader of the village, as the elders would be the ones actually sitting directly beneath the tree.  We know of a number of females in Norse mythology who are strong leaders, such as Freya and Frigga, but neither of them are in close relation with Loki.  There is, however, a female who is not only a) closely linked to Loki, she is also b) a strong leader of her people, c) considered by the Norse to be 'wicked', **and** d) someone who has close congress (both physically and philosophically) with Loki:  [Angrboða][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Angrboða (translated as &quot;the one who brings grief&quot; or &quot;she-who-offers-sorrow&quot; - I prefer the more direct &quot;Grief-Bringer&quot;, though 'Angr' is 'grief', and 'boð' is 'offer') is the chieftess of the jotunn of Járnvid ('Iron-wood'); these female jotunn are numbered among the ogresses, but the Norse skald is nothing if not prone to exaggeration, and so 'leader of the clan' gets expanded to 'all the ogresses of the earth'.  She is also the mother of what so far as I know are the only three in Norse mythology who are *explicitly* called monsters - the Midgard Serpent Jörmungandr, the great wolf Fenris, and Hel Half-Dead.  That all these three are fathered by Loki is one of the other layers of the above; we'll get into it a little later.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Okay, so Loki eats Angrboða's heart?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Well, no - not literally.  If the heart/thought-stone is an idea (or many ideas) that are dear to the one who has them, then how do you eat them?  Well, eating is consuming; you 'consume' an idea by *listening to it.*  So Loki eats the heart, or rather, he actually sits down and talks with this vibrant, charismatic leader, and listens to the ideas she's developed from sitting in judgement over her people, and takes her ideas for his own - he 'eats her heart, her thought-stone'.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**But what's this about pregnancy?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Well, how can you 'get pregnant' by a thought?  Why, by taking it as your own - internalizing it, we would say.  Now, actual birthing is only implied - 'thence in the world are all wicked ones come' is definitely suggestive of a pregnancy that results in birth!  Take this back to being 'pregnant with an idea', and what would be the product?  Why, more ideas, of course!!  And if the 'more ideas' that Loki births are 'all the wicked ones', then this is suggesting that all the bad ideas he has after this are a result of him taking into himself the ideas he gains from the ogress/giantess Angrboða.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another layer of this is the concept (essentially held even in modern times) that a man 'is pregnant' when a woman carries his child.  Angrboða gave three children to Loki (Jörmungandr, Fenris, and Hel), and so with a shift of emphasis of reading, as well as a realization that Loki meeting a female who could deal with him on his own level would definitely enflame his passions, it is only a small step to see that Loki's dealings with Angrboða soon proceeded to sexual relations, and he impregnated her - 'with child from the woman | Lopt soon was, And thence among men came the monsters all.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Reading Nordic poetry and sagas, even in translation, rather requires an understanding of kennings, poetic license and metaphor, Nordic beliefs, sociology both general and particular, and a realization that the damn skalds pretty much never talk straight at something.  Always consider that the meaning of the actual word, phrase, or concept is a stand-in for something else, and you probably won't be too far off.  ;)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenning &quot;Wikipedia: Kenning&quot;&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angrbo%C3%B0a &quot;Wikipedia: Angrboða&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10592" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2557" RevisionGUID="eb92a792-d3bf-403b-84f7-175e99e2814c" CreationDate="2017-04-21T04:17:19.073" UserId="3694" Text="IMO, this is a reference - with the gods being ignorant of the total facts - of the time Loki *must* have spent in Járnvid ('Iron-wood') with Angrboða.  Consider that the two have three children; if Loki has gone away for eight years and returned with three kids, the Æsir (knowing the truth of Sleipnir) may easily assume that Loki had borne them himself, or that their making was something 'disgusting and bizarre' between he and the giantess.  Knowing Loki's arrogance and mischieveous nature, it isn't difficult to think that he may well not have disabused them of the notion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Consider also that Angrboða was a chieftess and wise-woman of her tribe, which was at odds, and eventually involved in a war to extinction, with Asgard; for Loki to have stayed for that long (and eight years is typical for the time necessary to return with three children that survive their first year or two), it would have been easiest to be in disguise.  As well, as wise-woman Angrboða (and future völva, indeed Odinn goes down to just outside the Hall of Hel herself to unearth and interrogate her) would have had plenty to teach Loki, the best disguise for all arts would be that of a young female student which the wise-woman is teaching.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the reference may entirely be to Loki's sojurn in Járnvid, albeit with Loki-allowed misunderstandings about the origin of his children." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10593" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2558" RevisionGUID="5ae222da-a126-4ef1-ae7f-b006a4473686" CreationDate="2017-04-21T04:20:53.083" UserId="3694" Text="A simpler explanation is that Loki - 'Lopt', or 'fire' - is the deadly enemy of the watchman, of whom Heimdall is the archetype; that they were to be deadly enemies was practically a requirement, and so a reason must be supplied by the story-teller for their personifications to hate each other.  In the end, the fire gets the fireman, and vice-versa." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10595" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1458" RevisionGUID="bc9354d3-11c1-4d9f-9e85-249d35941181" CreationDate="2017-04-21T12:54:14.770" UserId="-1" Comment="Chaos and night made evrything befor erobos" Text=" - 10.Anklys [misery]&#xD;&#xA; -  9.Hemera [day]&#xD;&#xA; -  8.Aether [ozone]&#xD;&#xA; -  7.Ouranos[heaven]&#xD;&#xA; -  6.Tartarus[abyss]&#xD;&#xA; -  5.Gaea[earth]&#xD;&#xA; -  4.Eros[love]&#xD;&#xA; -  3.Erebos[darkness]&#xD;&#xA; -  2.Nyx [night]&#xD;&#xA; -  1.CHAOS [EXISTENCE BEFORE UNIVERSE]" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10596" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1458" RevisionGUID="bc9354d3-11c1-4d9f-9e85-249d35941181" CreationDate="2017-04-21T12:54:14.770" Comment="Proposed by anonymous approved by 2774, 1241 edit id of 437" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10602" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2546" RevisionGUID="38f3c536-18bc-4f83-b151-865ddbd3512e" CreationDate="2017-04-23T12:41:37.390" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved fomatting and grammar." Text="This kind of stuff is what I am interested in: [Myths of Irishness: The Fomorian Connection](https://www.jstor.org/stable/25484361?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Articles would be ideally the best. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10603" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2546" RevisionGUID="38f3c536-18bc-4f83-b151-865ddbd3512e" CreationDate="2017-04-23T12:41:37.390" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved fomatting and grammar." Text="Are there any good Jungian studies of Irish myth ( not generic 'Celtic')?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10604" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2560" RevisionGUID="fe6b888d-5298-4e63-9353-0ab8fc3879a1" CreationDate="2017-04-23T22:13:48.333" UserId="292" Text="I think there may be something to the Govinda idea, and the &quot;white/wise&quot; also links her to the Irish hero Finn, [whose enlightenment][1] came about because of her transgression.&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;Her wisdom could also come from being a river-goddess, like the Indian [Saraswati][2] and Persian [Anahita][3] were also goddesses of abundance, wisdom, and rivers. Either way, I do feel she has a wisdom component that's often overlooked.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salmon_of_Knowledge&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sanatansociety.org/hindu_gods_and_goddesses/saraswati.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Religions/iranian/anahita.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10605" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2560" RevisionGUID="e5c4c951-43b1-4022-a5c1-3514d8ced942" CreationDate="2017-04-23T22:52:37.177" UserId="292" Comment="added 382 characters in body" Text="I think there may be something to the Govinda idea, and the &quot;white/wise&quot; also links her to the Irish hero Finn, [whose enlightenment][1] came about because of her transgression.&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;Her wisdom could also come from being a river-goddess, like the Indian [Saraswati][2] and Persian [Anahita][3] were also goddesses of abundance, wisdom, and rivers. Either way, I do feel she has a wisdom component that's often overlooked.&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;I've come back to add that some trace her back to a proto-Indo-European *[Gwouwinda][4], whose Celtic avatars would be Boand, Brigit and maybe Damona. Saraswati may have had a cow aspect, since the Rig Veda (RV 9.67.32) says she makes milk and butter flow. I haven't been able to find anything bovine for Anahita. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salmon_of_Knowledge&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sanatansociety.org/hindu_gods_and_goddesses/saraswati.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Religions/iranian/anahita.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://everything2.com/title/Indo-European+Mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10608" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2562" RevisionGUID="5b020a16-dcb3-40a2-8ed9-9ecd5b935d91" CreationDate="2017-04-24T14:12:31.353" UserId="3706" Text="[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/fKjdU.jpg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is an image from the carvings found in Royston Cave, in Hertfordshire England. These were made by the Knights Templar. I believe this figure below the main depiction of Jesus is Horus. Note the Egyptian figures standing beside the crucified man, the one on the left has an Egyptian cross in-between his arms. Was this the Templars way of showing that this famous story had come before?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10609" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2563" RevisionGUID="96b5e89a-4f33-4436-8667-f97ed4f7acc8" CreationDate="2017-04-25T19:27:14.513" UserId="292" Text="*Husdrapa*, a poem by Ulf Uggason, deals with several mythological stories, including a battle between Loki and Heimdall. Arthur Brodeur's [translation][1]:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The famed rain-bow's defender,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ready in wisdom, striveth   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; At Singasteinn with Loki,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The son of mothers eight and one,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mighty in wrath, possesses   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Stone ere Loki cometh:   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; I make known songs of praise.&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;While it does say that Loki fought Heimdall it doesn't mention Freyja or indeed Brisingamen. Brodeur's translation refers to the object they fought over as a &quot;stone&quot; but other translations give it as &quot;sea-kidney&quot; (Faulkes) or &quot;magic stone&quot; (Wikipedia). &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;Snorri Sturluson's *Prose Edda* identifies it as Brisingamen. From his list of names for Heimdall:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He is also the visitor to Vagasker and Singastein; on that occasion he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; contended with Loki for the Brisingamen... Ulf Uggason composed a long&#xD;&#xA;&gt; passage in Husdrapa based on this story, and it is mentioned there&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that they fought in the form of seals. (Faulkes' translation: 76)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This in turn is often linked to the 13th century story *[Sorla thattr][2]* which describes how Odin got Loki to steal Freyja's necklace, so as to blackmail her into starting a war for him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singasteinn&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.blight.com/~sparkle/ring/poetic/brisnek.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10610" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2564" RevisionGUID="dd7f273d-b926-405c-948f-a83a3432b7d4" CreationDate="2017-04-25T19:41:43.570" UserId="292" Text="You referenced the [Wikipedia article][1] on the genius, but I think the [Britannica article][2] would have been more helpful to you. The genius (and its female counterpart, the juno) were personfications of the family's male and female reproductive powers, which passed through the heads of families and their wives.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;Howeve, many other things also had genii, including places (genius loci). Over time the genius became a more personal thing, like a guardian angel or protective spirit. The imperial cult fed off both these ideas, as it got round the problem of making the living emperor a god by worshipping the divinity of the genius within him, and emphasized the continuity of the imperial line (whatever about the reality).  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;As for Jupiter and Juno being a sort of ultimate genius and juno, it makes sense that the head of the gods, and his wife, would also have a sort of family genius. But it does lead to a recursive sort of divinity who has a divinity within him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genius_%28mythology%29&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.britannica.com/topic/genius-Roman-religion" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10619" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2567" RevisionGUID="35b45aa4-5525-43cb-b6bc-69593861a164" CreationDate="2017-04-29T23:32:43.477" UserId="3725" Text="Warning: The following content is worse than FATAL and Boku no pico combined. For the sake of your own sanity, consider avoiding this question if you aren't prepared.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Squick: *Something so disgusting and depraved it requires something that can erase memories (brain bleach).*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An excerpt from [TV tropes][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; People are fairly familiar with the story of how Set murdered Osiris&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to get his throne only to be thwarted by Osiris' son Horus, but most&#xD;&#xA;&gt; people don't know how it was done. Set attempted to prove his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; worthiness before the other gods by anally raping Horus, but Horus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reached between his legs and caught Set's semen, throwing it into the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Nile. Horus proceeded to masturbate into a salad, which Set ate&#xD;&#xA;&gt; without knowing about the special sauce. When it came time for Set to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; prove his dominance over Horus, the gods commanded Set's semen to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; speak. When the voice came from the Nile, the gods then commanded&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Horus' semen to speak, and imagine Set's state of mind when his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stomach started talking to him. That is how Horus avenged his father&#xD;&#xA;&gt; upon Set. The Egyptians were totally perverted. One version says that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they had intercrural (thigh) sex and Set (or Seth) wanted Horus to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; catch the semen. He did and Horus' mom saw the mess, cut off her son's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hands and threw them into the river. She then put her son's semen into&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Set's salad and the rest you know.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you excuse me, I'm gonna hang myself for now. Like, I honestly never understood this. It clearly feels like, that thing (sperm) has some sort of a meaning behind it, that is there in many myths, what I never could grasp is the following:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Knowing that myth was shaped by the humans, thus it reflected some of their idea sets (Hubris, etc...), so:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**What was their &quot;scientific&quot; understanding on matters regarding umm... human reproduction process and it's parts, that could have influenced their myths?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;Redacted's note: *If there would be a sandbox, I'd post it there first, but it seems like, that's yet to be implemented.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Bowdlerise/MythAndLegend" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10620" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2567" RevisionGUID="35b45aa4-5525-43cb-b6bc-69593861a164" CreationDate="2017-04-29T23:32:43.477" UserId="3725" Text="Why is there so much squick in every mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10621" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2567" RevisionGUID="35b45aa4-5525-43cb-b6bc-69593861a164" CreationDate="2017-04-29T23:32:43.477" UserId="3725" Text="|comparative|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10622" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2567" RevisionGUID="164137b2-0e3d-401c-a5d3-25d068475992" CreationDate="2017-04-30T14:20:59.460" UserId="3725" Comment="deleted 49 characters in body; edited title" Text="Warning: The following content is worse than FATAL and Boku no Pico combined. For the sake of your own sanity, consider avoiding this question if you aren't prepared.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An excerpt from [TV tropes][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; People are fairly familiar with the story of how Set murdered Osiris&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to get his throne only to be thwarted by Osiris' son Horus, but most&#xD;&#xA;&gt; people don't know how it was done. Set attempted to prove his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; worthiness before the other gods by anally raping Horus, but Horus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reached between his legs and caught Set's semen, throwing it into the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Nile. Horus proceeded to masturbate into a salad, which Set ate&#xD;&#xA;&gt; without knowing about the special sauce. When it came time for Set to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; prove his dominance over Horus, the gods commanded Set's semen to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; speak. When the voice came from the Nile, the gods then commanded&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Horus' semen to speak, and imagine Set's state of mind when his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stomach started talking to him. That is how Horus avenged his father&#xD;&#xA;&gt; upon Set. The Egyptians were totally perverted. One version says that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they had intercrural (thigh) sex and Set (or Seth) wanted Horus to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; catch the semen. He did and Horus' mom saw the mess, cut off her son's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hands and threw them into the river. She then put her son's semen into&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Set's salad and the rest you know.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I never really understood this. It clearly feels like, that seminal fluid has some sort of a meaning/purpose behind it, that is there in many myths, what I never could grasp is the following:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Knowing that myth was shaped by the humans, thus it reflected some of their idea sets (Hubris, etc...), so:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**What was their &quot;scientific&quot; understanding on matters regarding umm... human reproduction process and it's parts, that could have influenced their myths?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;Redacted's note: *If there would be a sandbox, I'd post it there first, but it seems like, that's yet to be implemented.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Bowdlerise/MythAndLegend" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10623" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2567" RevisionGUID="164137b2-0e3d-401c-a5d3-25d068475992" CreationDate="2017-04-30T14:20:59.460" UserId="3725" Comment="deleted 49 characters in body; edited title" Text="What's the purpose of seminal fluid in mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10624" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2568" RevisionGUID="e682db2b-62ee-41b0-a4af-e56f74fd1372" CreationDate="2017-04-30T20:50:57.733" UserId="3729" Text="Posiden was a god,and athena was a goddess,she was not powerful to punish posiden.also posiden is a elder god.which only second to zeus." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10626" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="825" RevisionGUID="103e888a-4ecd-4004-ba89-e7c932ea8633" CreationDate="2017-05-01T18:51:27.967" UserId="197" Comment="Get your Middle-Earth mythology right, stupid." Text="There are legends in several mythologies about who invented writing, or a particular writing system (script).  For example, the futhark runes used to write Norse were invented by the god Odin, and there is a legend recounting how the humans came to know them.  Middle-Earth mythology claims that the first writing system was invented by the noldor elf Rúmil, and then was perfected by Feanor to the alphabet known as tengwar.  I believe there is a legend about the invention of Chinese writing (hanzi) as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a similar legend in ancient Greek mythology?  According to the ancient Greeks, who has invented writing, or the first writing system, or letters, the alphabet, or the abjad?  Does writing originate from the gods, and if so, did the gods use it before the humans, and did Prometheus or Hephaistos teach it to the humans?  Or did the gods have no use for recording anything in writing permanently, given that they were immortal, in which case writing is a human invention? &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10627" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2568" RevisionGUID="a478cd6f-b97d-4443-a9ac-b735ef42f58b" CreationDate="2017-05-01T23:24:05.240" UserId="292" Comment="Tidied up spelling and capitalization, as well as a few small style issues." Text="Poseidon was a god, and Athena was a goddess. She was not powerful enough to punish Poseidon. He is a elder god, which makes him second only to Zeus." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10628" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2569" RevisionGUID="53603416-f950-478c-a8a9-f9192d9b7aea" CreationDate="2017-05-02T23:28:43.627" UserId="3737" Text="I read somewhere that before Christianity, the Greeks worshiped the seven Greek Gods and eventually it was outlawed or forbidden. &#xA;&#xA;My question is, Why was the Worship of Zeus and his kin banned?&#xA;&#xA;I'm assuming there was a war somewhere in the answer and somewhere down the line, the people converted. &#xA;&#xA;(I understand if this gets closed, I looked to see if their was a duplicate. Didn't see one)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10629" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2569" RevisionGUID="53603416-f950-478c-a8a9-f9192d9b7aea" CreationDate="2017-05-02T23:28:43.627" UserId="3737" Text="Why was the Worship of Zeus and his kin banned?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10630" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2569" RevisionGUID="53603416-f950-478c-a8a9-f9192d9b7aea" CreationDate="2017-05-02T23:28:43.627" UserId="3737" Text="|greek|zeus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10633" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2570" RevisionGUID="33748fe9-0302-4a9c-b4a4-553345e85bd9" CreationDate="2017-05-03T18:19:44.707" UserId="3741" Text="Well, first of all, the Greeks had a polytheistic (pagan) society, which the Christians didn't have. They instead practiced monotheism. The Greeks never actually banned the practice of polytheism, but the Christians did. While the Christians were in the process of recruiting gentiles to Christianity, many people were still pagans.The Christians slowly recruited more and more people and there were less and less pagans in the world. Once Christianity became the religion of most societies, anyone, and I mean anyone, who was not Christian, was targeted, not only pagans. In a Christian society, if you weren't Christian, you were treated badly, and that meant the banning of polytheism. Now, there are modern pagans, but had they lived when Christians controlled most societies (they still technically do, but not in the same way they used to), they would most likely have been executed or forced to convert." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10634" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2570" RevisionGUID="7e11d85a-80e1-4288-ae8d-38109ee186af" CreationDate="2017-05-03T20:43:55.770" UserId="3741" Comment="added 145 characters in body; added 101 characters in body; added 1 character in body" Text="Well, first of all, the Greeks had a polytheistic (pagan) society, which the Christians didn't have. They instead practiced monotheism. The Greeks never actually banned the practice of polytheism, but the Christians did. While the Christians were in the process of recruiting gentiles to Christianity, many people were still pagans.The Christians slowly recruited more and more people and there were less and less pagans in the world. Once Christianity became the religion of most societies, anyone, and I mean anyone, who was not Christian, was targeted, not only pagans. In a Christian society, if you weren't Christian, you were treated badly, and that meant the banning of polytheism. Now, there are modern pagans, but had they lived when Christians controlled most societies (they still technically do, but not in the same way they used to), they would most likely have been executed or forced to convert.&#xA;&#xA;[Christian religion control][1]&#xA;&#xA;[More info on polytheism ban/end of Greco-Roman polytheism][2]&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_policies_of_Constantine_I&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_Greco-Roman_polytheism" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10635" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2571" RevisionGUID="2652804f-d4f3-41df-ac2a-2bb968c6444b" CreationDate="2017-05-04T01:09:55.047" UserId="3741" Text="Looking for other historical records for Goffarius being defeated by Brutus, [I found one helpful link][1]. This explains that no historians have found historical evidence that Brutus was real, however, had he been real, a few math problems can help us figure this out.&#xA;&#xA;If the trojan war happened around 1300 BC, and Aeneas lived during that time. The average lifespan was probably around 70. So if Aeneas was 27 during the Trojan war, so Brutus was most likely in Britain around 1200 or 1150 BC.&#xA;&#xA;I was not able to find anything about 12 princes at this time, but look around that time period, and tell me if you find anything​ interesting.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://folkrealmstudies.weebly.com/brutus-of-troy-first-king-of-britain.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10636" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2572" RevisionGUID="6e23e06d-9855-4e51-a020-ac0bf5b85f24" CreationDate="2017-05-04T12:18:02.823" UserId="108" Text="That reads to me like an embellished, Western take on the common &quot;fox wife&quot; stories ubiquitous in Japanese folklore. The prototypical version of this theme appears in the 8th century [`nihon ryōiki (日本霊異記)`](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihon_Ry%C5%8Diki), i.e. *Chronicles of Supernatural Tales of Japan*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this tale, the protagonist went out searching for a wife, and found a beautiful girl looking for a husband. They thus married and produced a son. One day after the harvest, the wife brought refreshments to the women milling the rice. A dog chased after her, barking, and frightened her so much she leapt up to the roof revealing her true form as a fox. The husband, however, still loves the fox wife and begs her to come back and sleep with him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In later stories, the awkward pickup lines were often replaced by the protagonist (always male) saving a fox and then finding a beautiful woman magically appearing on his doorsteps. The tax evasion theme is one of the ways by which the fox repays the earlier kindness, but always.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, in Aichi regional folklore, a beautiful woman appears out of nowhere to marry a farmer, giving birth to a child. When their baby fell ill, however, the couple neglected their farm to nurse him back to health. Worried that there's no time left to sow the fields, the husband went out one day to discover the field has been planted - but upside down. He runs home to find his wife's tail dangling visibly, forcing the couple to separate, although the magistrate - not seeing the inverted harvest - exempts the farmer from taxes.    &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;(Source: *Aichi-ken Densetsu Shu*, Collection of Aichi Prefercture Legends)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other versions of the story, it is the son who noticed his mother's tail. That's the case in Izumi folklore, where the son grew up to become famed [Abe no Seimei](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abe_no_Seimei). Here, the fox came to the father out of gratitude for him saving her from a river, and later bestowed the power to understand beasts on her son.    &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;(Source: *Izumi Mukashi Banashi Shu*, Collection of Izumi Folktales)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that the fox in these stories are merely foxes, not the Inari *kami* herself. However, in some, including the Izumi tale mentioned above, the fox wife is named as [Kuzu-no-ha](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuzunoha), a Messenger of the Inari God. Although there's a tendency even within Japan to confuse Inari with foxes, the two are not the interchangeable.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All in all, the story cited in that WordPress blog certainly has obvious and striking similarities to common Japanese folklore. However, the individual details do not quite match up with any version that I know of.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10637" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2052" RevisionGUID="f2a178dd-af63-445f-8e5a-47dda08b20fe" CreationDate="2017-05-04T12:18:25.267" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="|folklore|japanese|animals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10638" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2572" RevisionGUID="8ab4b897-eaec-47a7-a69d-51a96471dbdb" CreationDate="2017-05-04T12:25:03.160" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 4 characters in body" Text="That reads to me like an embellished, Western take on the common &quot;fox wife&quot; stories ubiquitous in Japanese folklore. The prototypical version of this theme appears in the 8th century [`nihon ryōiki (日本霊異記)`](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihon_Ry%C5%8Diki), i.e. *Chronicles of Supernatural Tales of Japan*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this tale, the protagonist went out searching for a wife, and found a beautiful girl looking for a husband. They thus married and produced a son. One day after the harvest, the wife brought refreshments to the women milling the rice. A dog chased after her, barking, and frightened her so much she leapt up to the roof revealing her true form as a fox. The husband, however, still loves the fox wife and begs her to come back and sleep with him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In later stories, the awkward pickup lines were often replaced by the protagonist (always male) saving a fox and then finding a beautiful woman magically appearing on his doorsteps. The tax evasion can be, though isn't necessarily, one of the ways the fox repays his kindness.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, in Aichi regional folklore, a beautiful woman appears out of nowhere to marry a farmer, giving birth to a child. When their baby fell ill, however, the couple neglected their farm to nurse him back to health. Worried that there's no time left to sow the fields, the husband went out one day to discover the field has been planted - but upside down. He runs home to find his wife's tail dangling visibly, forcing the couple to separate, although the magistrate - not seeing the inverted harvest - exempts the farmer from taxes.    &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;(Source: *Aichi-ken Densetsu Shu*, Collection of Aichi Prefercture Legends)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other versions of the story, it is the son who noticed his mother's tail. That's the case in Izumi folklore, where the son grew up to become famed [Abe no Seimei](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abe_no_Seimei). Here, the fox came to the father out of gratitude for him saving her from a river, and later bestowed the power to understand beasts on her son.    &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;(Source: *Izumi Mukashi Banashi Shu*, Collection of Izumi Folktales)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that the fox in these stories are merely foxes, not the Inari *kami* herself. However, in some, including the Izumi tale mentioned above, the fox wife is named as [Kuzu-no-ha](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuzunoha), a Messenger of the Inari God. Although there's a tendency even within Japan to confuse Inari with foxes, the two are not the interchangeable.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All in all, the story cited in that WordPress blog certainly has obvious and striking similarities to common Japanese folklore. However, the individual details do not quite match up with any version that I know of.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10641" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2574" RevisionGUID="ee55701f-fc02-49d9-9139-5d0ed334d21d" CreationDate="2017-05-05T16:03:16.920" UserId="3745" Text="&quot;If that's what you want,&quot; the Patriarch replied, &quot;come here and I'll teach you the spells.&quot; Thereupon he&#xD;&#xA;whispered into Sun Wukong's ear, and who knows what miraculous spells he taught him? The Monkey King&#xD;&#xA;was the sort of person who understands everything once he is told a tiny part, and he learned the spells on the&#xD;&#xA;spot. He practiced and trained until he had mastered all seventy−two transformations. One day the Patriarch&#xD;&#xA;and all his disciples were enjoying the sunset outside the Three Stars Cave.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Journey to the West-Chapter 2&#xD;&#xA;Things like Sasuke's Sharingan come only from this part of Journey to the West.&#xD;&#xA;And all the 'eyes with powers' and power to 'copy abilities'&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;here, 72 is not an assigned limit to Sun Wukong's power, but a number often used to denote infinity.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10642" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2575" RevisionGUID="3e652aa4-d279-4f73-9329-e8c6232c2936" CreationDate="2017-05-05T18:13:58.240" UserId="3745" Text="Thor does not need to fly.&#xD;&#xA;Odin (Brahma), Loki (Shiva) and Thor (Vishnu)&#xD;&#xA;Thor's strength is so great it threatens the universe itself:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems obvious that Útgarða-Loki's giants were terrified for the same reason that Hymir was: Þórr's strength is great enough to threaten the very structures which hold the universe together.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source: https://notendur.hi.is//eybjorn/ugm/hymir/hym24.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thor creates a star out of a toe by throwing it into the sky:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A toe was sticking out, so Thor broke it off and threw it up into the sky to make the star Aurvandilstá (&quot;Aurvandil's Toe&quot;).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Basically the hammers 'fulfills the wishes of Thor'&#xD;&#xA;When Thor receives his hammer, Mjölnir, it is revealed that he can smite anything as hard as he so desires, and the hammer will not fail him. Thor can throw Mjölnir at anything, and it would strike without fail, never missing and never flying so far that it cannot return:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then he gave the hammer to Thor, and said that Thor might smite as hard as he desired, whatsoever might be before him, and the hammer would not fail; and if he threw it at anything, it would never miss, and never fly so far as not to return to his hand; and if be desired, he might keep it in his sark, it was so small; but indeed it was a flaw in the hammer that the fore-haft was somewhat short.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thor revives his two goats Tanngrisnir and Tanngnjóstr after slaughtering them for a meal:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thor tarried there overnight; and in the interval before day he rose up and clothed himself, took the hammer Mjöllnir, swung it up, and hallowed the goat-hides; straightway the he-goats rose up, and then one of them was lame in a hind leg. Thor discovered this, and declared that the husbandman or his household could not have dealt wisely with the bones of the goat: be knew that the thighbone was broken.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source: The Prose Edda: Gylfaginning" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10647" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2577" RevisionGUID="401354a6-e053-4b0e-acb2-2a8195866c08" CreationDate="2017-05-06T08:33:25.483" UserId="3747" Text="I am looking for any information about Heroes, or some kind of saints in mythology, which history or accomplishment concearns Death. Or death Gods.&#xD;&#xA;Not only defeating them, but allying with it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found list of Death Deities - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_death_deities&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But I do not know, where to start searching information about 'death' champions in the mythologies." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10648" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2577" RevisionGUID="401354a6-e053-4b0e-acb2-2a8195866c08" CreationDate="2017-05-06T08:33:25.483" UserId="3747" Text="Are there any 'Saints' or heroes in mythology concearning Death?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10649" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2577" RevisionGUID="401354a6-e053-4b0e-acb2-2a8195866c08" CreationDate="2017-05-06T08:33:25.483" UserId="3747" Text="|underworld|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10650" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2577" RevisionGUID="182b2ba3-df09-4862-b997-7e4acfd9e6c4" CreationDate="2017-05-06T12:29:40.110" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved formatting." Text="I am looking for any information about Heroes, or some kind of saints in mythology, which history or accomplishment concearns Death. Or death Gods.&#xD;&#xA;Not only defeating them, but allying with it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found list of Death Deities on [Wikipedia]( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_death_deities).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But I do not know, where to start searching information about 'death' champions in the mythologies." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10651" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2577" RevisionGUID="7ec859b8-45a6-4310-a818-59fd90564f1f" CreationDate="2017-05-07T01:00:33.070" UserId="398" Comment="deleted 85 characters in body; edited title" Text="I am looking for any information about mythical heroes or holy figures who overcome and even ally with death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found list of Death Deities on [Wikipedia]( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_death_deities).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But I do not know, where to start searching information about 'death' champions in the mythologies." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10652" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2577" RevisionGUID="7ec859b8-45a6-4310-a818-59fd90564f1f" CreationDate="2017-05-07T01:00:33.070" UserId="398" Comment="deleted 85 characters in body; edited title" Text="Are there any saints or heroes in mythology who ally with death?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10653" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2052" RevisionGUID="63ed0a99-fa9d-4cd2-b3aa-daec6ae1fa41" CreationDate="2017-05-07T13:53:31.360" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved formatting." Text="&gt;The Japanese rice Goddess liked to wrap herself in a fox’s body.  Sometimes, too, She took the shape of a human woman **in order to sleep with men, who had excellent crops as a result.  _One of these men, it was said, realized he was sleeping with the Goddess when he saw a long, furry red tail sticking out from beneath the blankets.  He said nothing of it, and She rewarded his discretion by causing all his rice to grow upside down, thus bearing a full harvest that was exempt from the rice tax_.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source: [Goddess Inari](https://journeyingtothegoddess.wordpress.com/?s=inari&amp;submit=Search)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any reference to this stories,particularly the one in italics?The reference could range from being scriptural to oral tradition." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10657" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2577" RevisionGUID="bb71a03b-f515-4ece-b1a3-b51408d22739" CreationDate="2017-05-07T19:45:11.597" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|underworld|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10658" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2058" RevisionGUID="86b3ad0f-c0fc-48a0-a2ef-9c975135f56c" CreationDate="2017-05-07T20:05:46.730" UserId="-1" Comment="It's better to call Vedas &amp; Upanishads as Scriptures than mythologies " Text="I haven't read Veda or Upanishad (and other Hindu scriptures). But I'm eager to know whether it does offer any account of how the universe came into existence? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10659" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2058" RevisionGUID="86b3ad0f-c0fc-48a0-a2ef-9c975135f56c" CreationDate="2017-05-07T20:05:46.730" Comment="Proposed by anonymous approved by -1 edit id of 439" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10660" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2058" RevisionGUID="e369dcdb-4c1c-4c99-9bdd-0810a197e871" CreationDate="2017-05-07T20:05:46.730" UserId="292" Comment="It's better to call Vedas &amp; Upanishads as Scriptures than mythologies " Text="I haven't read the Veda or Upanishad (and other Hindu scriptures). But I'm eager to know whether it does offer any account of how the universe came into existence? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10661" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2579" RevisionGUID="6e464b19-dbac-46f8-bee9-2c5eaffbfd04" CreationDate="2017-05-07T21:58:15.847" UserId="1315" Text="By commom sense, I would recommend start with hindu or greek myths. So one way to Start is Kali: &quot;Daksinakali - One version of the origin of her name comes from the story of Yama, lord of death, who lives in the south (daksina). When Yama heard Kali's name, he fled in terror, and so those who worship Kali are said to be able to overcome death itself&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Seems what you are looking for.&#xD;&#xA;Hope it helps." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10662" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2580" RevisionGUID="b1b62f1a-d2b0-463e-98ee-1ce107fbffc1" CreationDate="2017-05-07T22:15:34.197" UserId="1315" Text="This is a deep question. You say that &quot;seminal fluid has some sort of a meaning/purpose behind it, that is there in many myths&quot;. This question of reproduction is also a topic in classic Alchemy, that have a paralel on this myths. There is a substance called by many names, in Alchemy, for instance: . the &quot;Water that does not wet&quot;, &quot;the holy semen&quot;, the sacred sperm, the quintessence of alchemy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can look for the answer in myths for Alchemy. The basis story is that there is this substance that is used as the matter of all transformations or mutations (that differs itself when came to the 3 kingdons - plants, animals, etc.), if you want: the holy sperm. I guess you can find the answer in this ancient myths. The Dr. C. Jung is a good reference too, look for symbols of growing, mutation or reproduction in his work. There is a lot of stuff in the work of Dr. Carl Jung, you just have to find the right archetype or symbol." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10664" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2582" RevisionGUID="edee8fd3-652d-4a94-9771-f2f8a581670c" CreationDate="2017-05-08T14:52:59.743" UserId="3753" Text="The term 'Celtic' means mythology from the British Isles, so are the gods from Irish, Welsh, and Scottish mythology all considered part of the same pantheon? For example, did people who believe in the Irish Celtic Goddess Morrigan also believe in the Arawn, the Welsh Celtic God of the Underworld? Or do the Welsh, Irish, and Scottish believe in different pantheons of gods altogether and we simply lump them all in the Celtic category?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10665" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2582" RevisionGUID="edee8fd3-652d-4a94-9771-f2f8a581670c" CreationDate="2017-05-08T14:52:59.743" UserId="3753" Text="Are all Celtic Gods (Irish, Welsh, Scottish, and British) considered part of the same pantheon?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10666" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2582" RevisionGUID="edee8fd3-652d-4a94-9771-f2f8a581670c" CreationDate="2017-05-08T14:52:59.743" UserId="3753" Text="|welsh|irish|celtic|pantheon|scottish|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10667" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2583" RevisionGUID="2bc489f5-629c-4137-a299-de276b5423ef" CreationDate="2017-05-08T20:52:57.530" UserId="292" Text="In Greek myth, [Sisyphus][1] managed to bind Thanatos (god of death) so that no one died until Ares (war-god) came to rescue him. As a result, Zeus decreed a special punishment for Sisyphus when he died, which Sisyphus managed to evade for a while by ordering that no funeral rites be held when he died. Hades, as lord of the underworld, allowed Sisyphus go back to the land of the living and complain of the lack of reverence at his death. Of course, the gods caught up with him eventually, and punished him for making them look stupid.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;Another Greek god, the healer [Asklepios][2], got Hades mad by resurrecting the dead. For this bit of showing-off, Zeus zapped him with a thunderbolt and killed him. Despite his father Apollo's pleas, Asklepios was not resurrected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Haides.html#Sisyphos&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Ouranios/Asklepios.html#Death" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10668" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2584" RevisionGUID="44b5d018-34dd-44f2-b9a0-c9a1336a488a" CreationDate="2017-05-08T21:03:56.847" UserId="292" Text="Celtic refers to any of the peoples who [spoke Celtic languages][1], and this includes France, parts of Germany and Austria, and northern Italy. The peoples of Ireland and Britain are called [Insular Celts][2], because they live on islands off the European coastline.&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;And no, they did not believe in the same gods, although you can often find similar types of gods and goddesses in different places. For example, you can find the [young warrior god Lugh][3] in Ireland, Lugus in Gaul/France, and Llew in Wales. They aren't exactly the same god, but they share characteristics. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.open.edu/openlearncreate/mod/oucontent/view.php?id=4568&amp;section=2.4&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.maryjones.us/jce/lugh.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10680" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2586" RevisionGUID="d4774b5b-bf47-4b24-a82a-85958995bd33" CreationDate="2017-05-09T02:58:52.153" UserId="3757" Text="Are there universal myths, regardless of culture, that we retell over and over?&#xD;&#xA;The example often used is The Cosmic Hunt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10681" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2586" RevisionGUID="d4774b5b-bf47-4b24-a82a-85958995bd33" CreationDate="2017-05-09T02:58:52.153" UserId="3757" Text="Does the study of mythology find evidence of Jung's &quot;Universal Psychic Structure?&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10682" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2586" RevisionGUID="d4774b5b-bf47-4b24-a82a-85958995bd33" CreationDate="2017-05-09T02:58:52.153" UserId="3757" Text="|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10685" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2587" RevisionGUID="f8d50882-fd33-4943-bf88-a37ea2f3da70" CreationDate="2017-05-09T14:59:23.203" UserId="1315" Text="Yes, like Chenmunka says, there are dozens of proposed explanations for it from various authors, but who bring light to this matter on the past century was really Jung. There's a plenty of studies of Carl Jung (this studies where the source was Alchemical books and alchemists). In Alchemy itsel you will find various explanations of this Universal Structure, but the language of this sources are confuse for many. But, you can check here for good quite examples! https://www.hccfl.edu/media/724354/archetypesforliteraryanalysis.pdf&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm sure, it's gonna be a good start." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10686" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2588" RevisionGUID="999dc9b8-ebdc-4542-aba2-d019d21a3c3f" CreationDate="2017-05-09T15:18:42.037" UserId="1315" Text="I think this is a really really great find! I did some research and found nothing. South American myths contains a lot of kinds of Snakes, but this quite new for me. I think we will be waiting for someone reveal some other source.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But here is why makes sense to me: I think it's old knowledge for the universal and ancient questions of the &quot;opposites&quot;. You can find this duality - snake and birds, skane and eagles - in many works like the Nietzsche's Zaratustra and Marriage of Havean and Hell from William Blake. In both cases you can see this  transcended duality, with the junction of opposites represented as the eagle and the snake. In Blake's work the snake can see better been carrying by the eagle. In Zaratustra, Nietzsche claims in the beginning of the work the friendship of the eagle that carries the snake in its neck. Again, the opposites are together. The bird and snakes are symbols to represent the opposites, the most earthly animal and the most aerial animal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I will make a guess, using a alchemical proposition: so above, as below. the most earthly animal (or the Devil, as judaic representation) can be view as the &quot;Shadow&quot; in some cases pointed in Carl Jung studies. So, taken this representation, the Devil is a fallen angel, he knows very well the &quot;Shadow&quot; of the higher - higher as the spirit. So anyhow, he is the shadow, he has control of the shadow, the animal instinct, he knows the dark side, so in this case, he knows the weakness of a higher being, like birds. Because he once was a like aerial being. It makes sense? lol&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hope it helps someshow." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10687" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2587" RevisionGUID="d96cf87d-d087-4ec9-a0e2-9e5600827905" CreationDate="2017-05-10T01:04:10.697" UserId="1315" Comment="added 3 characters in body" Text="Yes, like Chenmunka says, there are dozens of proposed explanations for it from various authors, but who bring light to this matter on the past century was really Jung. There's a plenty of studies of Carl Jung (this studies where the source was Alchemical books and alchemists). In Alchemy itself you will find various explanations of this Universal Structure. The issue is the language-code of this sources are confuse for many poeple. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But you can check here for good quite examples! https://www.hccfl.edu/media/724354/archetypesforliteraryanalysis.pdf&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm sure it's gonna be a good start." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10690" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2589" RevisionGUID="4889cf39-3aa8-46f9-97e9-0c3f8a5cec5c" CreationDate="2017-05-10T22:48:43.130" UserId="3731" Text="The Wikipedia [article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky_father) &quot;Sky Father&quot; includes the following passage:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Sky Father&quot; is a direct translation of the Vedic Dyaus Pita, etymologically descended from the same Proto-Indo-European deity name as the Greek **Zeus Pater** and Roman Jupiter, all of which are reflexes of the same Proto-Indo-European deity's name, *Dyēus Ph₂tḗr.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The similarity between &quot;Zeus Pater&quot; and &quot;Jupiter&quot; is compelling, but I can't find any references to that name online. Where, if anywhere, does the name &quot;Zeus Pater&quot; appear in ancient Greek sources, and what is its significance?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10691" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2589" RevisionGUID="4889cf39-3aa8-46f9-97e9-0c3f8a5cec5c" CreationDate="2017-05-10T22:48:43.130" UserId="3731" Text="Does the phrase &quot;Zeus Pater&quot; appear in ancient Greek sources?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10692" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2589" RevisionGUID="4889cf39-3aa8-46f9-97e9-0c3f8a5cec5c" CreationDate="2017-05-10T22:48:43.130" UserId="3731" Text="|greek|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10693" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="2586" RevisionGUID="6cad4673-c741-4ded-b33d-4bdd48b13408" CreationDate="2017-05-11T00:26:27.480" UserId="-1" Comment="104" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:201,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Lauren Ipsum&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:42,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;femtoRgon&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:292,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;solsdottir&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:967,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;bleh&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="10695" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2590" RevisionGUID="8ed60724-35ea-4ad6-a4cb-d132b9f72bdc" CreationDate="2017-05-11T04:19:35.470" UserId="3763" Text="Things to look for:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1- Has Plato ever used an allegory or utopia to describe his visions about some subject, in any of his work before or after the story of Atlantis ?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2- The date given by Plato for the fall of Atlantis (9000 years before the time of Solon, or 9600BC) under floods and fire is consistent with new research on what appears to have been a period of comet or asteroid strikes at the end of the Ice Age. This same period corresponds to great death rates of large animals and disappearing of some known human cultures in the Americas." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10701" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2577" RevisionGUID="f06c3299-df8d-418c-9b69-40fa4435e5e5" CreationDate="2017-05-11T13:43:53.753" UserId="3747" Comment="deleted 18 characters in body" Text="I am looking for any information about mythical heroes or holy figures who ally with death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found list of Death Deities on [Wikipedia]( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_death_deities).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But I do not know, where to start searching information about 'death' champions in the mythologies." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10708" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2593" RevisionGUID="9918b69d-2911-462e-9235-6ace1db80b4a" CreationDate="2017-05-13T00:36:25.943" UserId="292" Text="At the risk of getting myself in trouble, I want to point out that this question doesn't go far enough. The Horus/Set conflict sounds a bit off, but the god Atum made his children Shu and Tefnut by masturbating, although since their names can mean &quot;spit&quot; and &quot;breath&quot; you have to wonder. ([PDF version][1] of the Hymn to Atum.)  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;And it doesn't stop with the Egyptians. After all, [Aphrodite][2] was born from Uranus' castrated penis. And in Japanese Shinto myth, the god Izanagi created the sun, moon and wind deities from his [two eyes and nose][3].  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;And in Norse myth, the first being was the [giant Ymir][4], who created another from between his sweaty feet, while two more crawled out from under his armpit.&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;My larger point is, gods and goddesses are powerful beings, whose bodily effluvia has power, even the power to created life. And to rat someone out.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.uh.edu/honors/human-situation/survival-kit/study-aids/Atum.Ptah.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/AphroditeMyths.html#Birth&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_mythology#Sun.2C_moon_and_storms&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ymir" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10709" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2594" RevisionGUID="7430c64d-ec04-439c-89b3-5d15655a34bd" CreationDate="2017-05-13T18:12:41.150" UserId="3621" Text="In Swedish folklore, carrying something made of steel – a knife, a pair of scissors, or anything really – is said to ward off various dark forces, anything from trolls to witches. Where does this belief originate, and where does it apply? Who's afraid of steel? And does it have to be shining steel, or does a wrought iron object (like a horseshoe) work as well? If not, what is special about steel?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10710" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2594" RevisionGUID="7430c64d-ec04-439c-89b3-5d15655a34bd" CreationDate="2017-05-13T18:12:41.150" UserId="3621" Text="Who's afraid of steel? Is iron different?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10711" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2594" RevisionGUID="7430c64d-ec04-439c-89b3-5d15655a34bd" CreationDate="2017-05-13T18:12:41.150" UserId="3621" Text="|folklore|magic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10712" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2595" RevisionGUID="3d67de61-c283-4515-a0f6-2903f5ae6438" CreationDate="2017-05-13T19:42:13.700" UserId="3770" Text="I found a tattoo in a book about mandala tattoos and dont know what the meaning is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can anyone identify what this tattoo means?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![rune][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;many thanks!!!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/fkn2z.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10713" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2595" RevisionGUID="3d67de61-c283-4515-a0f6-2903f5ae6438" CreationDate="2017-05-13T19:42:13.700" UserId="3770" Text="Rune Identification needed for tattoo" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10714" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2595" RevisionGUID="3d67de61-c283-4515-a0f6-2903f5ae6438" CreationDate="2017-05-13T19:42:13.700" UserId="3770" Text="|runes|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10715" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2596" RevisionGUID="b61bcf29-8fab-4046-818c-4db5e183ab2b" CreationDate="2017-05-13T20:14:51.073" UserId="666" Text="None.&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At least none that we know the Norse would be able to recognize. Runes are typically made with one vertical line an some straight lines attached to it. Curves such as the above were only used for a very few runes, since it would make them hard to carve in wood. [Wikipedia has a lot of examples of runes][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The amulet looks like it was inspired by [old norse art][2], but does seem to conform to any of the distinct styles that has been later identified.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you want to have a runic tattoo with some meaning, I would recommend looking into some of the icelandic magic runes: I found one image by some quick googling. I can not couch for its accuracy in total, but I have seen at least some of the designs in serious works:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Rune circles][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rune&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_art&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/k5UZB.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10716" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2594" RevisionGUID="d22ea5b6-9aa2-48d6-9500-83f6998616a4" CreationDate="2017-05-13T21:20:08.927" UserId="3621" Comment="added 31 characters in body" Text="In Swedish folklore, carrying something made of steel – a knife, a pair of scissors, or anything really – is said to ward off various dark forces, anything from trolls to witches. Where does this belief originate, and where (in folklore in which regions) does it apply? Who's afraid of steel? And does it have to be shining steel, or does a wrought iron object (like a horseshoe) work as well? If not, what is special about steel?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10717" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2034" RevisionGUID="4b1d7be6-c482-41cc-bf4b-f114151221d9" CreationDate="2017-05-14T19:20:57.763" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="10721" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2598" RevisionGUID="d724358f-807b-4cc8-a827-bc0d8d7fce96" CreationDate="2017-05-15T15:27:18.937" UserId="3676" Text="You could, in some ways, look at the events surrounding the conception of Loki's horse-child Sleipnir as an act of homosexuality. Loki tries to stop a frost giant from winning Freya's hand in marriage over a bet to build a wall for the gods of Asgard in the absence of Thor, the Protector. Loki, in order to stop the frost giant just as he is about to finish and win his deserved prize, shapeshifts into a horse and runs off with the giant's impressive horse, Svaoilfair. The story of how Asgard got it's wall ends 9 months later when Loki rides back to the hall of the gods on an 8 legged horse that he then gifts to Odin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is some general ambiguity, but this myth does more than hint that Loki conducted some form of a homosexual act. However, it could also not be, as Loki shapeshifts into, presumably, a female horse, as conception would be otherwise impossible (but then again this is Norse mythology...). So potentially, Loki may have been a homosexual god in one way or another." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10722" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2599" RevisionGUID="77c2899b-2636-4e46-8c08-b7a4dc0fd7c6" CreationDate="2017-05-15T15:36:38.827" UserId="292" Text="All the sources I've looked at do indeed say that iron repels fairies, and horseshoes, nails and shears have all been used to keep travellers and the newborn safe.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;There are many theories as to why this might be so, but my own opinion is that iron is a human artifact, so it would be &quot;culture&quot; as opposed to &quot;nature&quot;. It's also another form of magic, since smiths and smithys were seen as magical places in former times.  (In the [Fairy-Faith in Celtic Countries][1], Evan-Wentz suggests that the Fairies were former inhabitiants of Britian and Ireland who were unable to make iron and therefore feared it. He does note that the iron taboo is very common.)  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;As for steel, it's [an improved form][2] of iron, so you would expect it to be better all round. TV Tropes has an interesting post on [Cold Iron][3] - and they suggest that the ferromagnetic properties of iron may be what made fairies fear it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/ffcc/ffcc130.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ColdIron" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10723" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2600" RevisionGUID="a17d466d-8b59-4ac4-b0f5-7336fc86d317" CreationDate="2017-05-15T23:35:19.497" UserId="292" Text="There [are many ways][1] to read a myth. The Greek philosopher Xenophanes would have seen Zeus' amours as allegories, while Euhemerus would have looked for the history behind the myth. (And, as my link points out, those who see them as the &quot;marriage&quot; of invading sky-gods to local earth-goddesses continue that tradition.)  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;In modern times, [Robert Segal][2] wrote a brief but interesting book interepreting the Narcissus myth in many different ways (archetypal [Jung], structuralist [Levi-Strauss], ritualist [Frazer], etc.). You could certainly do the same with any of these Zeus myths.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;As for why those specific animals, the eagle was Zeus' (and Jupiter's) special animal, and the bull was important to the Cretans, as well as the animal of both Zeus and Poseidon. The swan was associated with Aphrodite, the goddess of love, which may have suggested the shape to Zeus. I'm not sure about the shower of gold, which sounds painful. (Perhaps Zeus had a fit of realism, and figured that even if Danae didn't want him, she could use the gold.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://faculty.gvsu.edu/websterm/ways.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/myth-a-very-short-introduction-9780198724704?cc=ca&amp;lang=en&amp;&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theoi.com/Heroine/Leda.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10728" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2603" RevisionGUID="6a6fe0ca-85c1-4daf-bbf8-301ab765c37d" CreationDate="2017-05-16T19:08:18.800" UserId="3782" Text="An answer can be found by connecting similar mythologies of relating archetypes. If you look at Sophia's journey to the underworld you see it's to collect the shattered fragments of herself and reclaim her power, this is reminiscent of inanna's journey, where she is made to strip as she decends the layers of the underworld and thus removing her ties to materialism and the worldly life. This is know as the dark night of the soul and is represented on the macro in the Venus transits, the path of the evening through to the morning star. It's also the path of the redeemer. &#xD;&#xA;I find research of multiple cultures helps fill the blanks of one and create a clearer idea of the whole. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10729" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2604" RevisionGUID="52fa0fe3-6514-433c-b2c6-7fad902987f8" CreationDate="2017-05-17T02:28:28.593" UserId="3351" Text="According to Plato the Greeks didn't knew of this story. The first Greek to learn about Atlantis was Solon, who stayed for some time in Egypt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story says that a wise Egyptian priest told Solon that there had been numerous cataclysmic natural disasters in the past, each time exterminating most of humanity. And that because of that, after the disasters humans would start building their civilizations once again from zero, having lost all of their knowledge. So the Egyptian priest tells to Solon that the Egyptians were wise to write history on the walls of their temples. Thus with ink that is waterproof they wrote on stone buildings that are fireproof and earthquake proof, in case yet another disaster happened, the history wouldn't be lost. (Think about all the hieroglyphics written on the walls of the Pyramids...)&#xD;&#xA;So eventually the priest says that a cataclysmic event did happened, and that lead the Greeks, who weren't prepared to loose their knowledge about the past, while the Egyptians retained it. And he goes on to tell one of the stories written on the walls to Solon, as an example. And that story, is the story of Atlantis." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10730" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2605" RevisionGUID="27129650-28e2-4949-9589-e02c04e145ed" CreationDate="2017-05-17T02:33:57.023" UserId="3351" Text="It depends who you ask. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As others have said, according to Hesiod the oldest one that existed was Chaos, and then Earth came to be.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Orpheus though, originally there was an Egg out of which the Universe came, but before the Universe, Eros (Love) came out of it, making Love the oldest one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, Plato says another version as he talks about a benevolent, omnipotent, Creator, that created both Heaven, the Universe and the 'gods'." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10731" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2606" RevisionGUID="4d0ebb64-e493-42cc-8e8b-97609812254f" CreationDate="2017-05-17T02:45:02.653" UserId="3351" Text="Pagan religion was outlawed forcibly by Imperial Decree of his majesty Emperor Theodosius II.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The decree commanded the immediate closure of temples, oracles, schools etc that were even remotely connected to paganism. At some places of the empire, pogroms against anything pagan started directly after. They destroyed ancient temples, burnt 'pagan' books, closed the philosophy schools, banned gymnastics... They even attacked the tomb of Alexander the Great because he was pagan when he lived...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is the very point where the period of 'Late Antiquity' ends, and the period of the 'Middle Ages' start. Next time you visit Greece or Italy and you see ruins of ancient temples, remember that most probably fanatic religious mobs turned them to ruins.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/oGnQd.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10732" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2607" RevisionGUID="d837b144-ccc6-4787-ad03-87e865018b41" CreationDate="2017-05-17T03:04:47.660" UserId="3351" Text="In the Greek language neutral pronouns are used for Chaos. And if I remember correctly, in Hesiod's works that I read some years ago in original Greek, he didn't specified a sex for Chaos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the other hand, there is also Orpheus's creation myth. This myth starts with an Egg out of which the Universe came out. But Orpheus doesn't touch the subject of the Egg's origin. Did it always existed ? Or was it laid by someone ? If it was laid by someone, that someone would have to be a female though, as it's females that lay eggs." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10736" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2609" RevisionGUID="0d628b5f-33f3-4eb7-b18e-71bcf07a8db3" CreationDate="2017-05-17T19:54:29.947" UserId="3741" Text="&quot;Zeus Pater&quot;&#xD;&#xA;=============&#xD;&#xA;    Pater means father. A quick and dirty translation of the phrase would be &#xD;&#xA;    father Zeus, and yes, it does appear in ancient Greek sources. eg: &quot;Ὑπερβίῳ δὲ &#xD;&#xA;    Ζεὺς πατὴρ ἐπ᾽ ἀσπίδος...&quot; - Aeschylus, Seven Against Thebes, line 512.&#xD;&#xA;Yes, &quot;Father Zeus&quot; or &quot;Zeus Pater&quot; did appear in Greek sources &quot;Ζεὺς πατὴρ&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Jupiter&quot;&#xD;&#xA;=========&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Sky Father&quot; is a direct translation of the Vedic Dyaus Pita, etymologically &#xD;&#xA;&gt;descended from the same Proto-Indo-European deity name as the Greek Zeus &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Pater and Roman Jupiter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is pulled from a [Wikipedia page on &quot;Sky Father.&quot;][1] If you translate &quot;Jupiter&quot; to English from Latin, you get &quot;Jupiter,&quot; &quot;Jove,&quot; or &quot;Sky.&quot; However, if you go on Dictionary.com and look at the word origin for &quot;Jupiter,&quot; you find that it comes from, &quot;Iuppiter.&quot; That word just means &quot;Jupiter,&quot; but a [Wiktionary][2] is helpful here:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The nominative Iuppiter, for Iūpiter (with shift of the length from vowel to consonant per the &quot;littera&quot; rule), comes from a vocative combined with pater, and essentially meant &quot;father Jove&quot;: Proto-Italic *djous patēr, from *djous (“day, sky”) + *patēr (“father”).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So it brings us right back to knowing that &quot;Jupiter&quot; means &quot;Sky Father&quot; and so does &quot;Zeus Pater.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Conclusion: #&#xD;&#xA;### 1: ###&#xD;&#xA;Yes, as yannis♦ pointed out &quot;Zeus Pater&quot; appears.&#xD;&#xA;### 2: ###&#xD;&#xA;Yes, the two terms are related, &quot;Jupiter&quot; comes from &quot;djous patēr,&quot; which means &quot;Sky Father,&quot; and &quot;Zeus Pater&quot; literally means &quot;Sky Father.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky_father&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Iuppiter#Latin" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10738" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2610" RevisionGUID="a33a2788-ec1b-4f15-99e8-55bf68b87afa" CreationDate="2017-05-18T04:00:53.910" UserId="3785" Text="The story of dyeing and rising on the third day is much older than both religions it came from sun worship when people tracked the sun. When the path of the sun would settle it the constellation of the southern cross then return three days later." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10744" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2613" RevisionGUID="219f239c-dc0e-4ead-8d0f-339dcbf365dd" CreationDate="2017-05-18T19:12:13.637" UserId="3741" Text="Well there is the Norse &quot;muse&quot; [Kvasir][1]&#xA;As far as a group of muses in another religion, no I can't think of or find any. So if you are looking for a group, no, but there is Kvasir from Norse mythology.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&amp;source=web&amp;rct=j&amp;url=http://www.holidayyarns.com/muse.pdf&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjDm4HMkfrTAhWLhlQKHaX7DDoQFggmMAI&amp;usg=AFQjCNEQzXG4VST02XI3MbcmNWj4RwKcIQ&amp;sig2=p0UIo-6szEqt6zM3MJRKZw" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10746" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2614" RevisionGUID="ed477e57-c676-4e68-abf6-2a4bf816f5f1" CreationDate="2017-05-19T08:28:16.020" UserId="3791" Text="Because all religions ever was invented by some misogynist guy who wanted to set a nice delusional foundation for a patriarchal society and hence when they wrote the story they put the blame on the woman, naturally?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10747" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2614" RevisionGUID="6163ca85-6e81-4848-8b2f-8ad53f477194" CreationDate="2017-05-19T08:52:38.927" UserId="3791" Comment="edited body" Text="Because all religions ever were invented by some misogynist guy who wanted to set a nice delusional foundation for a patriarchal society and hence when they wrote the story they naturally put the blame on the woman?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10750" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2067" RevisionGUID="b2e777ba-450b-42ff-8eb9-7f732a4df0ad" CreationDate="2017-05-19T15:28:51.097" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="10753" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2616" RevisionGUID="cb0ec00d-8ef5-4b76-8171-9e986b6383af" CreationDate="2017-05-20T04:54:40.877" UserId="3793" Text="Theres a unspoken hierarchy in place with greek mythology  based on power and respect. Also views of society were different when the storys we're first told. Thanks to creative minds that questioned everything. Things changed in the direction they thought best." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10757" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2618" RevisionGUID="8423f1b9-f718-48ab-bfeb-b4d23deb0e44" CreationDate="2017-05-22T00:55:32.113" UserId="3307" Text="Did Greeks and Romans believe in all their gods, or was it permissible to believe in some of them only (e.g., only in Diana, Jupiter, Apollo, Mercury, etc.)?&lt;br&gt;&lt;sup&gt;A related question: For those who believed in some of them only, did they think the other gods they didn't believe in were incompatible with theirs?&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other words: Did they tolerate those who only believed in some of their gods?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was a common theme for pagan rulers to force Christians to offer incense to a specific god, e.g., to Mercury, Apollo, or Jupiter, &quot;who was particularly worshipped in Crete&quot; ([source][1]). The Ephesians were known to be worshippers &quot;of the great Diana, and of Jupiter's offspring&quot; ([Acts 19:35][2]). In other cases, Christians were forced to &quot;offer to the god**s** [plural] the incense which is due to them&quot; ([source][3]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did the Greeks or Romans thus esteem tolerance and a plurality of gods (polytheism) more highly than the gods themselves?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.bartleby.com/210/12/232.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&amp;bk=51&amp;ch=19&amp;l=35-#x&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.bartleby.com/210/8/222.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10758" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2618" RevisionGUID="8423f1b9-f718-48ab-bfeb-b4d23deb0e44" CreationDate="2017-05-22T00:55:32.113" UserId="3307" Text="Did Greeks and Romans tolerate those who only believed in some of their gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10759" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2618" RevisionGUID="8423f1b9-f718-48ab-bfeb-b4d23deb0e44" CreationDate="2017-05-22T00:55:32.113" UserId="3307" Text="|greek|roman|christianity|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10761" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2618" RevisionGUID="24a1287f-c9c6-4628-a989-972cae6a707d" CreationDate="2017-05-22T16:02:27.290" UserId="3307" Comment="added 203 characters in body; edited title" Text="Did Greeks and Romans believe in all their gods, or was it permissible to believe in some of them only (e.g., only in Diana, Jupiter, Apollo, Mercury, etc.)?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;{It seems it was permissible to believe only in some of the gods. It was a common theme for pagan rulers to force Christians to offer incense to a specific god, e.g., to Mercury, Apollo, or Jupiter, &quot;who was particularly worshipped in Crete&quot; ([source][1]). The Ephesians were known to be worshippers &quot;of the great Diana, and of Jupiter's offspring&quot; ([Acts 19:35][2]). In other cases, Christians were forced to &quot;offer to the god**s** [plural] the incense which is due to them&quot; ([source][3]).}&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;{A related question: For those who believed in some of them only, did they think the other gods they didn't believe in were incompatible with theirs?}&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other words: Did they tolerate those who only believed in some of their gods? If so, did the Greeks or Romans esteem tolerance and a plurality of gods (polytheism) more highly than the gods themselves? If not, was there an &quot;orthodoxy&quot; in Greek and Roman mythology? And who determined whose myth stories or gods were orthodox?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.bartleby.com/210/12/232.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&amp;bk=51&amp;ch=19&amp;l=35-#x&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.bartleby.com/210/8/222.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10762" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2618" RevisionGUID="24a1287f-c9c6-4628-a989-972cae6a707d" CreationDate="2017-05-22T16:02:27.290" UserId="3307" Comment="added 203 characters in body; edited title" Text="Did Greeks and Romans allow for belief in only some of their gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10763" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2618" RevisionGUID="f4229a5f-3591-4e5b-aa67-981027bd86d7" CreationDate="2017-05-22T16:14:16.770" UserId="3307" Comment="added 252 characters in body" Text="Did Greeks and Romans believe in all their gods, or was it permissible to believe in some of them only (e.g., only in Diana, Jupiter, Apollo, Mercury, etc.)?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;{It seems it was permissible to believe only in some of the gods. It was a common theme for pagan rulers to force Christians to offer incense to a specific god, e.g., to Mercury, Apollo, or Jupiter, &quot;who was particularly worshipped in Crete&quot; ([source][1]). The Ephesians were known to be worshippers &quot;of the great Diana, and of Jupiter's offspring&quot; ([Acts 19:35][2]). In other cases, Christians were forced to &quot;offer to the god**s** [plural] the incense which is due to them&quot; ([source][3]).}&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A related question: For those who believed in some of them only, did they think the other gods they didn't believe in were incompatible with theirs? Did they regarded favourably the other gods?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;{It seems they might have, as St. Paul found the Athenians had &quot;an altar…on which was written: To the unknown God [αγνώστω θεώ]&quot; ([Acts 17:23][4]).}&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other words: Did they tolerate those who only believed in some of their gods? If so, did the Greeks or Romans esteem tolerance and a plurality of gods (polytheism) more highly than the gods themselves? If not, was there an &quot;orthodoxy&quot; in Greek and Roman mythology? And who determined whose myth stories or gods were orthodox?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.bartleby.com/210/12/232.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&amp;bk=51&amp;ch=19&amp;l=35-#x&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.bartleby.com/210/8/222.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drl&amp;bk=51&amp;ch=17&amp;l=23-#x" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10765" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2618" RevisionGUID="49c19090-5ac2-4e29-b7b1-a8fc24dbf23e" CreationDate="2017-05-22T16:24:14.783" UserId="3307" Comment="added 252 characters in body" Text="|greek|comparative|roman|christianity|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10766" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2618" RevisionGUID="b67aeb4c-036d-4c81-a113-2267e80d06a0" CreationDate="2017-05-22T18:32:40.023" UserId="3307" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body" Text="Did Greeks and Romans believe in all their gods, or was it permissible to believe in some of them only (e.g., only in Diana, Jupiter, Apollo, Mercury, etc.)?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;{It seems it was permissible to believe only in some of the gods. It was a common theme for pagan rulers to force Christians to offer incense to a specific god, e.g., to Mercury, Apollo, or Jupiter, &quot;who was particularly worshiped in Crete&quot; ([source][1]). The Ephesians were known to be worshipers &quot;of the great Diana, and of Jupiter's offspring&quot; ([Acts 19:35][2]). In other cases, Christians were forced to &quot;offer to the god**s** [plural] the incense which is due to them&quot; ([source][3]).}&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A related question: For those who believed in some of them only, did they think the other gods they didn't believe in were incompatible with theirs? Did they regarded favourably the other gods?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;{It seems they might have, as St. Paul found the Athenians had &quot;an altar…on which was written: To the unknown God [αγνώστω θεώ]&quot; ([Acts 17:23][4]).}&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other words: Did they tolerate those who only believed in some of their gods? If so, did the Greeks or Romans esteem tolerance and a plurality of gods (polytheism) more highly than the gods themselves? If not, was there an &quot;orthodoxy&quot; in Greek and Roman mythology? And who determined whose myth stories or gods were orthodox?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.bartleby.com/210/12/232.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&amp;bk=51&amp;ch=19&amp;l=35-#x&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.bartleby.com/210/8/222.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drl&amp;bk=51&amp;ch=17&amp;l=23-#x" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10767" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2619" RevisionGUID="46214c84-7260-4358-8740-853a213081ae" CreationDate="2017-05-23T04:38:37.237" UserId="2774" Text="Understanding the Antique world is quite a job,just remark that: Greeks and Romans are the easiest to understand, when we start to watch the other civilizations (Egyptians, Mesopotamians, Persians) we are definitly in alien territory,so keep that in mind. &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The Greeks was naming themselves &quot;Helen&quot; and thiose who was not speaking Greek &quot;Barbarians&quot;, so yes, Persians was barbarians and Egyptian was barbarians. This is something you find in Egypt &quot;The world&quot; and the reste of the world. Persians was making a huge difference between Persians/Medes and the other civilization. Sumerian was calling themselves &quot;The Black people&quot;, etc.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Heodotus 2.50&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;The good old Herodotus in chapter 2.50 of the History tells us aout the Egyptian origin of the greek Gods, this passage has to be cited completly:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; σχεδὸν δὲ καὶ πάντων τὰ οὐνόματα τῶν θεῶν ἐξ Αἰγύπτου ἐλήλυθε ἐς τὴν&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ἑλλάδα. διότι μὲν γὰρ ἐκ τῶν βαρβάρων ἥκει, πυνθανόμενος οὕτω εὑρίσκω&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ἐόν· δοκέω δ᾽ ὦν μάλιστα ἀπ᾽ Αἰγύπτου ἀπῖχθαι. ὅτι γὰρ δὴ μὴ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ποσειδέωνος καὶ Διοσκούρων, ὡς καὶ πρότερόν μοι ταῦτα εἴρηται, καὶ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ἥρης καὶ Ἱστίης καὶ Θέμιος καὶ Χαρίτων καὶ Νηρηίδων, τῶν ἄλλων θεῶν&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Αἰγυπτίοισι αἰεί κοτε τὰ οὐνόματα ἐστὶ ἐν τῇ χώρῃ. λέγω δὲ τὰ λέγουσι&#xD;&#xA;&gt; αὐτοὶ Αἰγύπτιοι. τῶν δὲ οὔ φασι θεῶν γινώσκειν τὰ οὐνόματα, οὗτοι δέ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; μοι δοκέουσι ὑπὸ Πελασγῶν ὀνομασθῆναι, πλὴν Ποσειδέωνος· τοῦτον δὲ τὸν&#xD;&#xA;&gt; θεὸν παρὰ Λιβύων ἐπύθοντο· οὐδαμοὶ γὰρ ἀπ᾽ ἀρχῆς Ποσειδέωνος&#xD;&#xA;&gt; οὔνομα ἔκτηνται εἰ μὴ Λίβυες καὶ τιμῶσι τὸν θεὸν τοῦτον αἰεί.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; νομίζουσι δ᾽ ὦν Αἰγύπτιοι οὐδ᾽ ἥρωσι οὐδέν.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;English translation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; By making inquiries, I discovered that the names of the gods came to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hellas from barbarians; and I myself concluded that they derive&#xD;&#xA;&gt; specifically from Egypt, for [1] the names of the gods have been known&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in Egypt since the earliest times, except for Poseidon and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dioskouroi (as I mentioned earlier); as well as Hera, Histia, Themis,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Graces, and the Nereids. Here I am reporting what the Egyptians&#xD;&#xA;&gt; themselves say, and this leads me to believe that the gods whose names&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they deny knowing were named by the Pelasgiansb- all except for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Poseidon, since this god was introduced to the Hellenes by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Libyans, who alone, among all peoples, have always honored him and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; have possessed the name of Poseidon from the beginning. And as to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dioskouroi, the Egyptians do not believe in heroes at all.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice also, and this is constant in Herodotus, that almost all gods of other country are given Greek names, here for example the Lybian are related to Poseidon.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Some other point here showing the relation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2.41: Their statue of Isis has a woman's body with horns like a cow's, just&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as the Hellenes portray Io&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2.42 And since the Egyptians call Zeus by the name of Ammon, it seems to me&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that the Ammonians also received their name from the appellation of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2.43 Moreover, the fact is that the Egyptians did not take the &quot;name of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Herakles&quot; from the Hellenes, but that the Hellenes (that is, those&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hellenes who established the name of Herakles as the son of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Amphitryona) took it from the Egyptians; this can be demonstrated by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; many proofS, especially by the fact that both parents of Herakles,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Amphitryon and Alkmene, were of Egyptian descent&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;NB: Herakles parents are descendant of Perseus which was a descendant of Aigyptos [Αἴγυπτος = Egypt in Greek].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Foreign Greek god&#xD;&#xA;-----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We have a very clear example of a Thracian Goddess (Bendis) included in teh Anthenian pantheon during the war of the Peloponese:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is Richard Farnell notes of her:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Thracian Bendis was probably in origin and character the same as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the great mother of Phrygia, and was whorshipped (...) with the same&#xD;&#xA;&gt; orgiastic rites(...) we also hear of Bendis as the great goddess of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lemnos to whom human victims were offered... The reasons for this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; association of the greek maidenly goddess with teh Bendis-Hekate-Brimo&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the patroness of savage magic and terrifying superstition, may have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; been some external ressemblance of attributes, but also probably, some&#xD;&#xA;&gt; consanguinity of character. Like Artemis, the Thracian divinity was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; supposed to ride on bulls; like Artemis, she was a mighty huntress,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; though her weapon was not the bow, but the spear in each hand.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So basically we see that Bendis was included in the Athenian pantheon of god roughly for political reasons namely the alliance with the Thracians. As a goddess of hunt, dark ritual magic and bulls, Bendis was linked naturally to Hekate-Artemis (note the theme of the moon). Notice that what Plato is talking about, the fact the Athenians was riding with torch in their hands is purely an Artemis ritual.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can readmore on that [here][1] where I gave a more complete historical account.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;External mythological elements&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I can also add that Greek did happily borrowed element in other mythologies, especially in Mesopotamia.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is for example Odysseus killing the Cyclops, I meant Nergal killing Igidallru:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[![https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSTEQcgA_i_A6BsBgdcuYoz22fEjcbl_QMOE7Unfxraglfkow68iQ][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The borrowing of the Greeks there is quite extensive...&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Here is for example the start of the Hittite song of Kummarbi, that you can parallel with hesiod's Theogony:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For a mere nine years Alalu was king in heaven. In the ninth year Anu&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gave battle against Alalu and he defeated Alalu. He (Alalu) fled&#xD;&#xA;&gt; before him and went down to the Dark Earth. Down he went to the Dark&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Earth, and Anu took his seat on his throne. Anu was sitting on his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; throne, and weighty Kumarbi was giving him drink. (Kumarbi) was bowing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; down at his feet and placing in his hand the drinking cups.&lt;BR&gt;  For a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mere nine years Anu remained king in heaven. In the ninth year Anu&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gave battle against Kumarbi. Kumarbi, Alalu's offspring, gave battle&#xD;&#xA;&gt; against Anu. Anu can no longer withstand Kumarbi's eyes. Anu wriggled&#xD;&#xA;&gt; loose from his (Kumarbi's) hands and fled. He set out for the sky.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (But) Kumarbi rushed after him, seized Anu by the feet/legs, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dragged him down from the sky.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Running out of time I will add the description of Xerxes ceremony over the Hellespont compared with Alexander's one***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2496/are-artemis-and-bendis-the-same/2497#2497&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/EdKWB.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/qJNKe.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10768" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2619" RevisionGUID="eca548c1-0362-46c6-9dd0-bd3cac808ef5" CreationDate="2017-05-24T03:49:51.213" UserId="2774" Comment="Add about Kumarbi" Text="Understanding the Antique world is quite a job,just remark that: Greeks and Romans are the easiest to understand, when we start to watch the other civilizations (Egyptians, Mesopotamians, Persians) we are definitly in alien territory,so keep that in mind. &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The Greeks was naming themselves &quot;Helen&quot; and thiose who was not speaking Greek &quot;Barbarians&quot;, so yes, Persians was barbarians and Egyptian was barbarians. This is something you find in Egypt &quot;The world&quot; and the reste of the world. Persians was making a huge difference between Persians/Medes and the other civilization. Sumerian was calling themselves &quot;The Black people&quot;, etc.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Heodotus 2.50&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;The good old Herodotus in chapter 2.50 of the History tells us aout the Egyptian origin of the greek Gods, this passage has to be cited completly:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; σχεδὸν δὲ καὶ πάντων τὰ οὐνόματα τῶν θεῶν ἐξ Αἰγύπτου ἐλήλυθε ἐς τὴν&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ἑλλάδα. διότι μὲν γὰρ ἐκ τῶν βαρβάρων ἥκει, πυνθανόμενος οὕτω εὑρίσκω&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ἐόν· δοκέω δ᾽ ὦν μάλιστα ἀπ᾽ Αἰγύπτου ἀπῖχθαι. ὅτι γὰρ δὴ μὴ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ποσειδέωνος καὶ Διοσκούρων, ὡς καὶ πρότερόν μοι ταῦτα εἴρηται, καὶ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ἥρης καὶ Ἱστίης καὶ Θέμιος καὶ Χαρίτων καὶ Νηρηίδων, τῶν ἄλλων θεῶν&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Αἰγυπτίοισι αἰεί κοτε τὰ οὐνόματα ἐστὶ ἐν τῇ χώρῃ. λέγω δὲ τὰ λέγουσι&#xD;&#xA;&gt; αὐτοὶ Αἰγύπτιοι. τῶν δὲ οὔ φασι θεῶν γινώσκειν τὰ οὐνόματα, οὗτοι δέ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; μοι δοκέουσι ὑπὸ Πελασγῶν ὀνομασθῆναι, πλὴν Ποσειδέωνος· τοῦτον δὲ τὸν&#xD;&#xA;&gt; θεὸν παρὰ Λιβύων ἐπύθοντο· οὐδαμοὶ γὰρ ἀπ᾽ ἀρχῆς Ποσειδέωνος&#xD;&#xA;&gt; οὔνομα ἔκτηνται εἰ μὴ Λίβυες καὶ τιμῶσι τὸν θεὸν τοῦτον αἰεί.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; νομίζουσι δ᾽ ὦν Αἰγύπτιοι οὐδ᾽ ἥρωσι οὐδέν.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;English translation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; By making inquiries, I discovered that the names of the gods came to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hellas from barbarians; and I myself concluded that they derive&#xD;&#xA;&gt; specifically from Egypt, for [1] the names of the gods have been known&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in Egypt since the earliest times, except for Poseidon and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dioskouroi (as I mentioned earlier); as well as Hera, Histia, Themis,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Graces, and the Nereids. Here I am reporting what the Egyptians&#xD;&#xA;&gt; themselves say, and this leads me to believe that the gods whose names&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they deny knowing were named by the Pelasgiansb- all except for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Poseidon, since this god was introduced to the Hellenes by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Libyans, who alone, among all peoples, have always honored him and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; have possessed the name of Poseidon from the beginning. And as to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dioskouroi, the Egyptians do not believe in heroes at all.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice also, and this is constant in Herodotus, that almost all gods of other country are given Greek names, here for example the Lybian are related to Poseidon.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Some other point here showing the relation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2.41: Their statue of Isis has a woman's body with horns like a cow's, just&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as the Hellenes portray Io&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2.42 And since the Egyptians call Zeus by the name of Ammon, it seems to me&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that the Ammonians also received their name from the appellation of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2.43 Moreover, the fact is that the Egyptians did not take the &quot;name of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Herakles&quot; from the Hellenes, but that the Hellenes (that is, those&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hellenes who established the name of Herakles as the son of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Amphitryona) took it from the Egyptians; this can be demonstrated by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; many proofS, especially by the fact that both parents of Herakles,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Amphitryon and Alkmene, were of Egyptian descent&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;NB: Herakles parents are descendant of Perseus which was a descendant of Aigyptos [Αἴγυπτος = Egypt in Greek].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Foreign Greek god&#xD;&#xA;-----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We have a very clear example of a Thracian Goddess (Bendis) included in teh Anthenian pantheon during the war of the Peloponese:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is Richard Farnell notes of her:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Thracian Bendis was probably in origin and character the same as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the great mother of Phrygia, and was whorshipped (...) with the same&#xD;&#xA;&gt; orgiastic rites(...) we also hear of Bendis as the great goddess of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lemnos to whom human victims were offered... The reasons for this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; association of the greek maidenly goddess with teh Bendis-Hekate-Brimo&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the patroness of savage magic and terrifying superstition, may have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; been some external ressemblance of attributes, but also probably, some&#xD;&#xA;&gt; consanguinity of character. Like Artemis, the Thracian divinity was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; supposed to ride on bulls; like Artemis, she was a mighty huntress,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; though her weapon was not the bow, but the spear in each hand.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So basically we see that Bendis was included in the Athenian pantheon of god roughly for political reasons namely the alliance with the Thracians. As a goddess of hunt, dark ritual magic and bulls, Bendis was linked naturally to Hekate-Artemis (note the theme of the moon). Notice that what Plato is talking about, the fact the Athenians was riding with torch in their hands is purely an Artemis ritual.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can readmore on that [here][1] where I gave a more complete historical account.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;External mythological elements&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I can also add that Greek did happily borrowed element in other mythologies, especially in Mesopotamia.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is for example Odysseus killing the Cyclops, I meant Nergal killing Igidallru:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[![https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSTEQcgA_i_A6BsBgdcuYoz22fEjcbl_QMOE7Unfxraglfkow68iQ][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The borrowing of the Greeks there is quite extensive...&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Here is for example the start of the Hittite song of Kummarbi, that you can parallel with hesiod's Theogony:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For a mere nine years Alalu was king in heaven. In the ninth year Anu&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gave battle against Alalu and he defeated Alalu. He (Alalu) fled&#xD;&#xA;&gt; before him and went down to the Dark Earth. Down he went to the Dark&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Earth, and Anu took his seat on his throne. Anu was sitting on his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; throne, and weighty Kumarbi was giving him drink. (Kumarbi) was bowing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; down at his feet and placing in his hand the drinking cups.&lt;BR&gt;  For a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mere nine years Anu remained king in heaven. In the ninth year Anu&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gave battle against Kumarbi. Kumarbi, Alalu's offspring, gave battle&#xD;&#xA;&gt; against Anu. Anu can no longer withstand Kumarbi's eyes. Anu wriggled&#xD;&#xA;&gt; loose from his (Kumarbi's) hands and fled. He set out for the sky.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (But) Kumarbi rushed after him, seized Anu by the feet/legs, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dragged him down from the sky.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Kumarbi) bit his (Anu's) loins, and his &quot;manhood&quot; united with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kumarbi's insides like bronze (results from the union of copper and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tin). When Kumarbi had swallowed the &quot;manhood&quot; of Anu, he rejoiced and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; laughed out loud.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Running out of time I will add the description of Xerxes ceremony over the Hellespont compared with Alexander's one***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2496/are-artemis-and-bendis-the-same/2497#2497&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/EdKWB.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/qJNKe.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10769" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2619" RevisionGUID="e24492d2-e8f8-4ba0-b3f8-8552398b37c5" CreationDate="2017-05-24T04:12:17.477" UserId="2774" Comment="Add greek myht evolution" Text="Understanding the Antique world is quite a job,just remark that: Greeks and Romans are the easiest to understand, when we start to watch the other civilizations (Egyptians, Mesopotamians, Persians) we are definitly in alien territory,so keep that in mind. &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The Greeks was naming themselves &quot;Helen&quot; and thiose who was not speaking Greek &quot;Barbarians&quot;, so yes, Persians was barbarians and Egyptian was barbarians. This is something you find in Egypt &quot;The world&quot; and the reste of the world. Persians was making a huge difference between Persians/Medes and the other civilization. Sumerian was calling themselves &quot;The Black people&quot;, etc.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Heodotus 2.50&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;The good old Herodotus in chapter 2.50 of the History tells us aout the Egyptian origin of the greek Gods, this passage has to be cited completly:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; σχεδὸν δὲ καὶ πάντων τὰ οὐνόματα τῶν θεῶν ἐξ Αἰγύπτου ἐλήλυθε ἐς τὴν&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ἑλλάδα. διότι μὲν γὰρ ἐκ τῶν βαρβάρων ἥκει, πυνθανόμενος οὕτω εὑρίσκω&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ἐόν· δοκέω δ᾽ ὦν μάλιστα ἀπ᾽ Αἰγύπτου ἀπῖχθαι. ὅτι γὰρ δὴ μὴ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ποσειδέωνος καὶ Διοσκούρων, ὡς καὶ πρότερόν μοι ταῦτα εἴρηται, καὶ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ἥρης καὶ Ἱστίης καὶ Θέμιος καὶ Χαρίτων καὶ Νηρηίδων, τῶν ἄλλων θεῶν&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Αἰγυπτίοισι αἰεί κοτε τὰ οὐνόματα ἐστὶ ἐν τῇ χώρῃ. λέγω δὲ τὰ λέγουσι&#xD;&#xA;&gt; αὐτοὶ Αἰγύπτιοι. τῶν δὲ οὔ φασι θεῶν γινώσκειν τὰ οὐνόματα, οὗτοι δέ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; μοι δοκέουσι ὑπὸ Πελασγῶν ὀνομασθῆναι, πλὴν Ποσειδέωνος· τοῦτον δὲ τὸν&#xD;&#xA;&gt; θεὸν παρὰ Λιβύων ἐπύθοντο· οὐδαμοὶ γὰρ ἀπ᾽ ἀρχῆς Ποσειδέωνος&#xD;&#xA;&gt; οὔνομα ἔκτηνται εἰ μὴ Λίβυες καὶ τιμῶσι τὸν θεὸν τοῦτον αἰεί.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; νομίζουσι δ᾽ ὦν Αἰγύπτιοι οὐδ᾽ ἥρωσι οὐδέν.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;English translation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; By making inquiries, I discovered that the names of the gods came to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hellas from barbarians; and I myself concluded that they derive&#xD;&#xA;&gt; specifically from Egypt, for [1] the names of the gods have been known&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in Egypt since the earliest times, except for Poseidon and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dioskouroi (as I mentioned earlier); as well as Hera, Histia, Themis,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Graces, and the Nereids. Here I am reporting what the Egyptians&#xD;&#xA;&gt; themselves say, and this leads me to believe that the gods whose names&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they deny knowing were named by the Pelasgiansb- all except for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Poseidon, since this god was introduced to the Hellenes by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Libyans, who alone, among all peoples, have always honored him and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; have possessed the name of Poseidon from the beginning. And as to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dioskouroi, the Egyptians do not believe in heroes at all.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice also, and this is constant in Herodotus, that almost all gods of other country are given Greek names, here for example the Lybian are related to Poseidon.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Some other point here showing the relation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2.41: Their statue of Isis has a woman's body with horns like a cow's, just&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as the Hellenes portray Io&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2.42 And since the Egyptians call Zeus by the name of Ammon, it seems to me&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that the Ammonians also received their name from the appellation of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2.43 Moreover, the fact is that the Egyptians did not take the &quot;name of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Herakles&quot; from the Hellenes, but that the Hellenes (that is, those&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hellenes who established the name of Herakles as the son of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Amphitryona) took it from the Egyptians; this can be demonstrated by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; many proofS, especially by the fact that both parents of Herakles,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Amphitryon and Alkmene, were of Egyptian descent&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;NB: Herakles parents are descendant of Perseus which was a descendant of Aigyptos [Αἴγυπτος = Egypt in Greek].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Foreign Greek god&#xD;&#xA;-----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We have a very clear example of a Thracian Goddess (Bendis) included in teh Anthenian pantheon during the war of the Peloponese:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is Richard Farnell notes of her:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Thracian Bendis was probably in origin and character the same as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the great mother of Phrygia, and was whorshipped (...) with the same&#xD;&#xA;&gt; orgiastic rites(...) we also hear of Bendis as the great goddess of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lemnos to whom human victims were offered... The reasons for this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; association of the greek maidenly goddess with teh Bendis-Hekate-Brimo&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the patroness of savage magic and terrifying superstition, may have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; been some external ressemblance of attributes, but also probably, some&#xD;&#xA;&gt; consanguinity of character. Like Artemis, the Thracian divinity was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; supposed to ride on bulls; like Artemis, she was a mighty huntress,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; though her weapon was not the bow, but the spear in each hand.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So basically we see that Bendis was included in the Athenian pantheon of god roughly for political reasons namely the alliance with the Thracians. As a goddess of hunt, dark ritual magic and bulls, Bendis was linked naturally to Hekate-Artemis (note the theme of the moon). Notice that what Plato is talking about, the fact the Athenians was riding with torch in their hands is purely an Artemis ritual.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can readmore on that [here][1] where I gave a more complete historical account.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;External mythological elements&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I can also add that Greek did happily borrowed element in other mythologies, especially in Mesopotamia.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is for example Odysseus killing the Cyclops, I meant Nergal killing Igidallru:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[![https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSTEQcgA_i_A6BsBgdcuYoz22fEjcbl_QMOE7Unfxraglfkow68iQ][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The borrowing of the Greeks there is quite extensive...&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Here is for example the start of the Hittite song of Kummarbi, that you can parallel with hesiod's Theogony:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For a mere nine years Alalu was king in heaven. In the ninth year Anu&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gave battle against Alalu and he defeated Alalu. He (Alalu) fled&#xD;&#xA;&gt; before him and went down to the Dark Earth. Down he went to the Dark&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Earth, and Anu took his seat on his throne. Anu was sitting on his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; throne, and weighty Kumarbi was giving him drink. (Kumarbi) was bowing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; down at his feet and placing in his hand the drinking cups.&lt;BR&gt;  For a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mere nine years Anu remained king in heaven. In the ninth year Anu&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gave battle against Kumarbi. Kumarbi, Alalu's offspring, gave battle&#xD;&#xA;&gt; against Anu. Anu can no longer withstand Kumarbi's eyes. Anu wriggled&#xD;&#xA;&gt; loose from his (Kumarbi's) hands and fled. He set out for the sky.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (But) Kumarbi rushed after him, seized Anu by the feet/legs, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dragged him down from the sky.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Kumarbi) bit his (Anu's) loins, and his &quot;manhood&quot; united with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kumarbi's insides like bronze (results from the union of copper and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tin). When Kumarbi had swallowed the &quot;manhood&quot; of Anu, he rejoiced and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; laughed out loud.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ceremony over the Hellespont&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;this is a ceremony we find in Herodotus VII-54, this ceremony is done by the Achaemenid king Xerxes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then, as the sun was rising, Xerxes poured a libation from a golden&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cup into the sea as he faced the sun and prayed that nothing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; unexpected would happen to stop him from subjugating Europe before he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reached the very ends of that land. After his prayer, he threw the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; libation cup into the Hellespont,. along with a golden mixing bowl and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a Persian sword, which they call an akinakes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is now the ceremony described by Arrian in his Anabasis (VI-19), At the mouth of the Indus Aleander the Great is doing this ceremony:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then he sacrificed bulls to Poseidon, and cast them into the sea, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after the sacrifice poured a libation and cast into the sea the cup&#xD;&#xA;&gt; made of gold and golden bowls as thankofferings, praying that Posidon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; would safely convoy the naval force he intended to dispatch with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Nearchus towards the Persian Gulf.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apart from the minor difference (the presence of a bull and Poseidon specifically named), the ceremony are the exact same. They both filled a golden cup pray and threw the whole in the &quot;sea&quot;... Alexander being Greek and Xeres Persian something is weird.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Notice more amusingly that Alexander will do this over the Hellespont (I.11):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Alexander sacrificed] a bull to Posidon and the Nereids in the midst&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the Hellespont strait, and pour[ed] into the sea a drink offering&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from a golden bowl.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Again same exact ceremony, which tickle to believe Xerxes is doing a Greek ceremony at the Persian sauce. Xerxes is turning toward the sun (basically Ahura-Mazda, the Persian god) during the ceremony.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;We can find a clear explanation in Herodotus VII-54:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Having taken complete possession of Athens, Xerxes now sent off a mounted messenger&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to Artabanos to announce his present success, and the day after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sending the messenger, he summoned the exiles from Athens who had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; accompanied him and ordered them to climb to the Acropolis and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sacrifice according to their tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pretty obviously in Xerxes army there was Greeks (don't mention that to Zak snyder pretty please) and here obviously he reward them by having them performing a Greek ceremony inside the Acropole. which lead to believe when we compare Xerxes ceremony and Alexander ceremony that Xerxes ceremony over the Hellespont is Greek not Persian (Greek sauce Persian for the obvious presence of Ahura-Mazda).&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;We can confirm that when we see Cyrus the Great (Cyrus -&gt; Cambyses -&gt; Darius -&gt; Xerxes) restoring the ceremony after conquering Babylon, Cambyses respecting the Gods of Egypt (don't read Herodotus there read the Egyptians).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Evolution of Greek myths&#xD;&#xA;------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did the Greek mythology evolve through time. Indeed, I invite you to read my fairly detailed description of Medusa's evolution from [Homeric time up to Ray Harryhausen][4].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2496/are-artemis-and-bendis-the-same/2497#2497&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/EdKWB.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/qJNKe.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1817/could-you-look-at-medusas-head-through-a-distorted-surface/1830#1830" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10770" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2620" RevisionGUID="b5ddf568-bfcd-4a89-a740-f6bc46311bc2" CreationDate="2017-05-24T04:49:00.673" UserId="3811" Text="Additional creatures to consider are Grendal's mother from the story of Beowulf.  Another one harder to track is Coarnach, a mother of demons and possibly the devil.  Banished to the bottom of a lake and possibly straight to hell by Saint Patrick." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10771" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2621" RevisionGUID="3430927f-a13c-482f-9ce2-ee51248a991e" CreationDate="2017-05-24T06:38:08.303" UserId="666" Text="**Tiamat**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In mesopotamian mythology, [Tiamat][1] was at first the mother of the younger gods. When they had killed their father, Apsu, she made war on them, giving birth to monsters. After the younger gods killed her, they created the world from her body.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Loki**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;No, really. Not only did he mother [Sleipnir][2], a horse with eight feet, after having mated with Svaðilfari, which we can reasonably characterise as a monster, we also have a short verse in *[Hyndluljóð][3]*, according to which he gave birth to &quot;all the monsters&quot; after eating the heart of a which (the verse is further discussed [here][4]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For a more general discussion about the view of motherhood and monsters in Norse mythology, I would recommend Margaret Clunies Ross *Prolonged Echoes*,  which devotes significant time to the theme.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleipnir&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyndlulj%C3%B3%C3%B0&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2113/did-loki-give-birth-to-a-monster" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10772" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2619" RevisionGUID="8577e36b-22a2-4e83-9ee3-31cadf631847" CreationDate="2017-05-24T12:19:20.677" UserId="2774" Comment="Add some sumary" Text="Understanding the Antique world is quite a job,just remark that: Greeks and Romans are the easiest to understand, when we start to watch the other civilizations (Egyptians, Mesopotamians, Persians) we are definitly in alien territory,so keep that in mind. &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The Greeks was naming themselves &quot;Helen&quot; and thiose who was not speaking Greek &quot;Barbarians&quot;, so yes, Persians was barbarians and Egyptian was barbarians. This is something you find in Egypt &quot;The world&quot; and the reste of the world. Persians was making a huge difference between Persians/Medes and the other civilization. Sumerian was calling themselves &quot;The Black people&quot;, etc.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Heodotus 2.50&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;The good old Herodotus in chapter 2.50 of the History tells us aout the Egyptian origin of the greek Gods, this passage has to be cited completly:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; σχεδὸν δὲ καὶ πάντων τὰ οὐνόματα τῶν θεῶν ἐξ Αἰγύπτου ἐλήλυθε ἐς τὴν&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ἑλλάδα. διότι μὲν γὰρ ἐκ τῶν βαρβάρων ἥκει, πυνθανόμενος οὕτω εὑρίσκω&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ἐόν· δοκέω δ᾽ ὦν μάλιστα ἀπ᾽ Αἰγύπτου ἀπῖχθαι. ὅτι γὰρ δὴ μὴ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ποσειδέωνος καὶ Διοσκούρων, ὡς καὶ πρότερόν μοι ταῦτα εἴρηται, καὶ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ἥρης καὶ Ἱστίης καὶ Θέμιος καὶ Χαρίτων καὶ Νηρηίδων, τῶν ἄλλων θεῶν&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Αἰγυπτίοισι αἰεί κοτε τὰ οὐνόματα ἐστὶ ἐν τῇ χώρῃ. λέγω δὲ τὰ λέγουσι&#xD;&#xA;&gt; αὐτοὶ Αἰγύπτιοι. τῶν δὲ οὔ φασι θεῶν γινώσκειν τὰ οὐνόματα, οὗτοι δέ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; μοι δοκέουσι ὑπὸ Πελασγῶν ὀνομασθῆναι, πλὴν Ποσειδέωνος· τοῦτον δὲ τὸν&#xD;&#xA;&gt; θεὸν παρὰ Λιβύων ἐπύθοντο· οὐδαμοὶ γὰρ ἀπ᾽ ἀρχῆς Ποσειδέωνος&#xD;&#xA;&gt; οὔνομα ἔκτηνται εἰ μὴ Λίβυες καὶ τιμῶσι τὸν θεὸν τοῦτον αἰεί.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; νομίζουσι δ᾽ ὦν Αἰγύπτιοι οὐδ᾽ ἥρωσι οὐδέν.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;English translation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; By making inquiries, I discovered that the names of the gods came to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hellas from barbarians; and I myself concluded that they derive&#xD;&#xA;&gt; specifically from Egypt, for [1] the names of the gods have been known&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in Egypt since the earliest times, except for Poseidon and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dioskouroi (as I mentioned earlier); as well as Hera, Histia, Themis,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Graces, and the Nereids. Here I am reporting what the Egyptians&#xD;&#xA;&gt; themselves say, and this leads me to believe that the gods whose names&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they deny knowing were named by the Pelasgiansb- all except for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Poseidon, since this god was introduced to the Hellenes by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Libyans, who alone, among all peoples, have always honored him and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; have possessed the name of Poseidon from the beginning. And as to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dioskouroi, the Egyptians do not believe in heroes at all.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice also, and this is constant in Herodotus, that almost all gods of other country are given Greek names, here for example the Lybian are related to Poseidon.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Some other point here showing the relation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2.41: Their statue of Isis has a woman's body with horns like a cow's, just&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as the Hellenes portray Io&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2.42 And since the Egyptians call Zeus by the name of Ammon, it seems to me&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that the Ammonians also received their name from the appellation of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2.43 Moreover, the fact is that the Egyptians did not take the &quot;name of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Herakles&quot; from the Hellenes, but that the Hellenes (that is, those&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hellenes who established the name of Herakles as the son of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Amphitryona) took it from the Egyptians; this can be demonstrated by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; many proofS, especially by the fact that both parents of Herakles,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Amphitryon and Alkmene, were of Egyptian descent&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;NB: Herakles parents are descendant of Perseus which was a descendant of Aigyptos [Αἴγυπτος = Egypt in Greek].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Foreign Greek god&#xD;&#xA;-----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We have a very clear example of a Thracian Goddess (Bendis) included in teh Anthenian pantheon during the war of the Peloponese:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is Richard Farnell notes of her:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Thracian Bendis was probably in origin and character the same as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the great mother of Phrygia, and was whorshipped (...) with the same&#xD;&#xA;&gt; orgiastic rites(...) we also hear of Bendis as the great goddess of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lemnos to whom human victims were offered... The reasons for this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; association of the greek maidenly goddess with teh Bendis-Hekate-Brimo&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the patroness of savage magic and terrifying superstition, may have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; been some external ressemblance of attributes, but also probably, some&#xD;&#xA;&gt; consanguinity of character. Like Artemis, the Thracian divinity was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; supposed to ride on bulls; like Artemis, she was a mighty huntress,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; though her weapon was not the bow, but the spear in each hand.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So basically we see that Bendis was included in the Athenian pantheon of god roughly for political reasons namely the alliance with the Thracians. As a goddess of hunt, dark ritual magic and bulls, Bendis was linked naturally to Hekate-Artemis (note the theme of the moon). Notice that what Plato is talking about, the fact the Athenians was riding with torch in their hands is purely an Artemis ritual.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can readmore on that [here][1] where I gave a more complete historical account.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;External mythological elements&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I can also add that Greek did happily borrowed element in other mythologies, especially in Mesopotamia.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is for example Odysseus killing the Cyclops, I meant Nergal killing Igidallru:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[![https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSTEQcgA_i_A6BsBgdcuYoz22fEjcbl_QMOE7Unfxraglfkow68iQ][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The borrowing of the Greeks there is quite extensive...&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Here is for example the start of the Hittite song of Kummarbi, that you can parallel with hesiod's Theogony:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For a mere nine years Alalu was king in heaven. In the ninth year Anu&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gave battle against Alalu and he defeated Alalu. He (Alalu) fled&#xD;&#xA;&gt; before him and went down to the Dark Earth. Down he went to the Dark&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Earth, and Anu took his seat on his throne. Anu was sitting on his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; throne, and weighty Kumarbi was giving him drink. (Kumarbi) was bowing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; down at his feet and placing in his hand the drinking cups.&lt;BR&gt;  For a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mere nine years Anu remained king in heaven. In the ninth year Anu&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gave battle against Kumarbi. Kumarbi, Alalu's offspring, gave battle&#xD;&#xA;&gt; against Anu. Anu can no longer withstand Kumarbi's eyes. Anu wriggled&#xD;&#xA;&gt; loose from his (Kumarbi's) hands and fled. He set out for the sky.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (But) Kumarbi rushed after him, seized Anu by the feet/legs, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dragged him down from the sky.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Kumarbi) bit his (Anu's) loins, and his &quot;manhood&quot; united with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kumarbi's insides like bronze (results from the union of copper and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tin). When Kumarbi had swallowed the &quot;manhood&quot; of Anu, he rejoiced and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; laughed out loud.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ceremony over the Hellespont&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;this is a ceremony we find in Herodotus VII-54, this ceremony is done by the Achaemenid king Xerxes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then, as the sun was rising, Xerxes poured a libation from a golden&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cup into the sea as he faced the sun and prayed that nothing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; unexpected would happen to stop him from subjugating Europe before he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reached the very ends of that land. After his prayer, he threw the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; libation cup into the Hellespont,. along with a golden mixing bowl and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a Persian sword, which they call an akinakes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is now the ceremony described by Arrian in his Anabasis (VI-19), At the mouth of the Indus Aleander the Great is doing this ceremony:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then he sacrificed bulls to Poseidon, and cast them into the sea, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after the sacrifice poured a libation and cast into the sea the cup&#xD;&#xA;&gt; made of gold and golden bowls as thankofferings, praying that Posidon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; would safely convoy the naval force he intended to dispatch with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Nearchus towards the Persian Gulf.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apart from the minor difference (the presence of a bull and Poseidon specifically named), the ceremony are the exact same. They both filled a golden cup pray and threw the whole in the &quot;sea&quot;... Alexander being Greek and Xeres Persian something is weird.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Notice more amusingly that Alexander will do this over the Hellespont (I.11):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Alexander sacrificed] a bull to Posidon and the Nereids in the midst&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the Hellespont strait, and pour[ed] into the sea a drink offering&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from a golden bowl.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Again same exact ceremony, which tickle to believe Xerxes is doing a Greek ceremony at the Persian sauce. Xerxes is turning toward the sun (basically Ahura-Mazda, the Persian god) during the ceremony.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;We can find a clear explanation in Herodotus VII-54:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Having taken complete possession of Athens, Xerxes now sent off a mounted messenger&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to Artabanos to announce his present success, and the day after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sending the messenger, he summoned the exiles from Athens who had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; accompanied him and ordered them to climb to the Acropolis and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sacrifice according to their tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pretty obviously in Xerxes army there was Greeks (don't mention that to Zak snyder pretty please) and here obviously he reward them by having them performing a Greek ceremony inside the Acropole. which lead to believe when we compare Xerxes ceremony and Alexander ceremony that Xerxes ceremony over the Hellespont is Greek not Persian (Greek sauce Persian for the obvious presence of Ahura-Mazda).&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;We can confirm that when we see Cyrus the Great (Cyrus -&gt; Cambyses -&gt; Darius -&gt; Xerxes) restoring the ceremony after conquering Babylon, Cambyses respecting the Gods of Egypt (don't read Herodotus there read the Egyptians).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Evolution of Greek myths&#xD;&#xA;------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did the Greek mythology evolve through time. Indeed, I invite you to read my fairly detailed description of Medusa's evolution from [Homeric time up to Ray Harryhausen][4].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Small conclusion&#xD;&#xA;----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does every of that means that the Antique world is open minded and the Christians world made of intolerants? That would be naive (very). One has to see that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The Antique civilizations communicated without a doubt, we find track of Egyptian stories in India.&#xD;&#xA; - Most of the so called openess in term of religion is hidden by the fact almost every time it is open for political reasons.That is well illustrated by Xerxes Greek ceremony, Cyrus &quot;restoring&quot; the old babylonian religion, the goddess Bendis suddenly entering the Athenian pantheon. One can illustrate the drawback here. Herodotus mentions that Cyrus' son, Cambyses is &quot;mad&quot; while his other Smerdis is replaced by a &quot;false copy&quot;. A close examination of Egyptian source makes clear that Cambyses followed the general &quot;Acheamenid trend&quot; of keeping the local religion. And all the Smerdis affair is highly smelly. So it seems Darius probably usurped the throne and thus is the true origin of this &quot;degenerated Cyrus' sons&quot;.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Note also that when we are speaking of the Antique world we are speaking about an incredibly small amount of people. 10/15% among the Greeks was free people. But now let's discuss the rest, made of the women, the slaves, the Lacedemonians Helots, the 2nd/3rd/4th sons (notice that this only the first male heir persisted during the whole Middle Age and the Renaissance), etc. Those had no right at all. When you was part of the 10/15% life was awesome, when not... That is where you have to moderate seriously the so-called openness you can find. It is generally fairly restricted to highly political reasons. When there was no political reasons, Greeks/Mesopotamians/Egyptians/Persians are infamous to slaughter every men, enslave every women and burn down every local cult temples. And by the way, that is not the question here, but Christians shown high openness as well for the same political reasons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2496/are-artemis-and-bendis-the-same/2497#2497&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/EdKWB.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/qJNKe.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1817/could-you-look-at-medusas-head-through-a-distorted-surface/1830#1830" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10775" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2624" RevisionGUID="1ebeed34-0dbb-4e30-b246-d8de2334e0b2" CreationDate="2017-05-26T14:40:25.613" UserId="3826" Text="Mesopotamian sign of Eternity is same as Georgian Borjgali, Georgians also speak language which is derived from Shumer and Mesopotamia since survivors of &quot;the great deluge&quot; settled in Caucasus mountains and brought the language and culture from there, also known as Caucasian (see Caucasian particularly Kartvelian languages) later Antiochian Christians from Rome changed it to sign of Sun.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Armenian is not Mesopotamian culture and their language is not considered as such (Caucasian), but they have been inhabiting Caucasian mountains since 590BC during the time of &quot;Yervanduri&quot; when Kingdom of Urartu fell and new nation and people were established which westerners called &quot;Armina&quot;, thus Armenians have continued Caucasian tradition from Urartu and Kingdom of Nairi and their relatives (Kartvelians)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;in short Georgians (Kartvelians) are the closest people of culture of Shumer and Mesopotamia and have preserved culture, symbols and language derived from there, but it's very important that we remember and understand that this is a sign of ETERNITY, NOT SYMBOL OF SUN.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;it is symbol that portrays cycles of life and universe and ages, simply put it says &quot;what was once will be again&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10779" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2626" RevisionGUID="4739614e-157f-4d6a-915b-4e6e736b6941" CreationDate="2017-05-27T21:03:47.117" UserId="3827" Text="Also worth to mention the Phoenix-method, as per Tao.&#xD;&#xA;Its gives full rebirth capacities, although it is somewhat hard way..." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10780" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2627" RevisionGUID="20e1e37e-3439-4704-a34d-53ba12e577d4" CreationDate="2017-05-28T02:36:59.593" UserId="197" Text="In chapter 9 of the Beowulf epic (line 582), Beowulf dismisses Unferth as someone who only talks but but doesn't participate in heroic deeds.  But later in chapter 22 (line 1488), Beowulf makes a last will in case he dies in the fight, and in this, he has Unferth inherit his sword.  Why did Beowulf suddenly change his view? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10781" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2627" RevisionGUID="20e1e37e-3439-4704-a34d-53ba12e577d4" CreationDate="2017-05-28T02:36:59.593" UserId="197" Text="Why did Beowulf order to leave his sword to Unferth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10782" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2627" RevisionGUID="20e1e37e-3439-4704-a34d-53ba12e577d4" CreationDate="2017-05-28T02:36:59.593" UserId="197" Text="|beowulf|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10786" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="2022" RevisionGUID="fdaeb33b-b399-4557-806c-576dc7838870" CreationDate="2017-05-28T13:34:32.777" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="10788" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2630" RevisionGUID="88737965-2cb4-4c72-9d1e-96698fe3d21a" CreationDate="2017-05-29T06:57:59.457" UserId="666" Text="**Because Unferth changed his mind first.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First, he stopped his boasting when Beowulf had slain Grendel ([line 980][1]). And, just before passage you quote ([line 1455][2] and forward), Unferth had lent Beowulf his named sword, Hrunting, further conceding that Beowulf was the greater man. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The logic here seems very straightforward: Unferth borrows Beowulf a sword to use in a combat from which it is not certain he will return. If the worst should come to happen, Beowulf does not want Unferth to have suffered because of him, so he offers his own sword as collateral.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that Beowulf's initial view of Unferth is correct, but that it is true also for the rest of the court, and for most of the other characters; apart from Beowulf, Wiglaf is the only character in the poem whose courage does not desert him. It is not Unferth's lack of courage that is the main issue, but rather his boasting - and that had stopped.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Oldest_English_Epic/Chapter_1/Beowulf_14&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Oldest_English_Epic/Chapter_1/Beowulf_21" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10789" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="75" RevisionGUID="b385c3b4-8cc9-4175-b2f0-863cff751630" CreationDate="2017-05-29T11:55:41.393" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved grammar and formatting." Text="Japan's birth rate dropped precipitiously in 1966, only to recover completely in 1967.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![birth rate in Japan][1]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is apparently because 1966 was the &quot;Year of the Fire Horse&quot; - that is, in the 60-year zodiacal cycle you get by crossing the twelve zodiac animals with the five traditional elements (fire, water, earth, wood, metal), 1966 was in the Horse Year of the Fire cycle - and women actively avoided having children in that year because children born in that year were said to have poor prospects for marriage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Is there some sort of mythological story explaining why it's so bad to be born in the Year of the Fire Horse?** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/FG97t.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.tofugu.com/2012/04/11/the-curse-of-the-fire-horse-japans-ultimate-form-of-contraception/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10790" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="75" RevisionGUID="b385c3b4-8cc9-4175-b2f0-863cff751630" CreationDate="2017-05-29T11:55:41.393" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved grammar and formatting." Text="Why is it so bad to be born in the Year of the Fire Horse?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10791" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2631" RevisionGUID="f9bfaad4-478d-477b-9f1d-1813aeaeffa2" CreationDate="2017-05-29T12:42:32.743" UserId="1511" Text="I would like to research Fairies and their wonderful virtues, as described in Celtic mythology. Can someone suggest rich and readily available sources on the subject?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10792" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2631" RevisionGUID="f9bfaad4-478d-477b-9f1d-1813aeaeffa2" CreationDate="2017-05-29T12:42:32.743" UserId="1511" Text="What's a good source on Fairies online?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10793" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2631" RevisionGUID="f9bfaad4-478d-477b-9f1d-1813aeaeffa2" CreationDate="2017-05-29T12:42:32.743" UserId="1511" Text="|celtic|fairies|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10795" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2632" RevisionGUID="646b0d8f-e889-4291-9798-aa27b55c0dbc" CreationDate="2017-05-29T19:45:36.530" UserId="967" Text="You can find a lot of sources on http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/ ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You have to scroll down to approximately 7/8 and you can find all the fairy texts you need. Or ctrl-f fairies. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10796" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2633" RevisionGUID="e4b5b349-26f3-4a36-9057-2aeba1c5f7fe" CreationDate="2017-05-30T06:17:44.317" UserId="3834" Text="If you have a dragon with the ability to swim, can it still blow flames under water?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10797" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2633" RevisionGUID="e4b5b349-26f3-4a36-9057-2aeba1c5f7fe" CreationDate="2017-05-30T06:17:44.317" UserId="3834" Text="Can A Dragon Breathe Fire Under Water?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10798" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2633" RevisionGUID="e4b5b349-26f3-4a36-9057-2aeba1c5f7fe" CreationDate="2017-05-30T06:17:44.317" UserId="3834" Text="|dragons|water|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10799" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2634" RevisionGUID="a5025347-0019-45d9-9354-7f8f50064803" CreationDate="2017-05-30T20:34:11.953" UserId="3836" Text="Like in the title can a succubus be loyal to her lover or it has to have sexual intercourse men?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10800" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2634" RevisionGUID="a5025347-0019-45d9-9354-7f8f50064803" CreationDate="2017-05-30T20:34:11.953" UserId="3836" Text="Can succubus be loyal to her lover?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10801" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2634" RevisionGUID="a5025347-0019-45d9-9354-7f8f50064803" CreationDate="2017-05-30T20:34:11.953" UserId="3836" Text="|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10804" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="2633" RevisionGUID="8c270b2b-698f-40af-a32c-52eea9c123ff" CreationDate="2017-05-31T05:41:07.070" UserId="-1" Comment="102" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:201,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Lauren Ipsum&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:967,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;bleh&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:42,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;femtoRgon&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:666,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;andejons&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="10805" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2637" RevisionGUID="35902e7d-82a7-4879-8d2d-553d5e03ca7a" CreationDate="2017-05-31T08:08:55.443" UserId="3845" Text="I'm a big fan of both the Elder Scrolls and Mythology, Skyrim has its own in-game mythology. But I have no clue what myths the story of the Dragonborn and the World Eater is based on.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;- Is it based on one or more myths or is it &lt;b&gt;completely&lt;/b&gt; made up by the writers?&lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;- What could it possibly be based on?&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;thx in advance" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10806" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2637" RevisionGUID="35902e7d-82a7-4879-8d2d-553d5e03ca7a" CreationDate="2017-05-31T08:08:55.443" UserId="3845" Text="What mythology is the story of Alduin The World Eater and The Dragonborn (as seen in The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim) based on?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10807" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2637" RevisionGUID="35902e7d-82a7-4879-8d2d-553d5e03ca7a" CreationDate="2017-05-31T08:08:55.443" UserId="3845" Text="|norse|myth-identification|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10808" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2638" RevisionGUID="a339a312-2262-440d-989d-bbd71fb4bffa" CreationDate="2017-05-31T08:19:51.437" UserId="2774" Text="This question is not as fairly easy to answer as what you can expect. One of the huge problem we have is &quot;succubuses&quot; (or &quot;succubi&quot;) are known to us from specific books:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. The Alpa beta (or Alphabet of Ben Sira): That book is the one where the infamous [Lilith][1] appears and let's face it, this book is a giant troll book.I linked to you an analysis of Lilith I gave some time ago.&#xD;&#xA; 2. The Zohar: Another troll book, certainly less than the AB, but still, cf the link I gave. There we find such demons, named the four queens of Hell (Lilith, Agrat Bat Malhat, Naamah, Eisheth Zenunim).&#xD;&#xA; 3. The Malleus Maleficarium: Another infamous troll book (this time in the bad sense, because it is been quite read), the anti-witch book by excellence. In this book the succubus will steal some semen to human male, give it to an incubus (or shift into an incubus, depends) and impregnate a woman given her malformed offspring (we call those children 'cambion').&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In substance the main material source we have is to be taken with huge caution. I would say with the exception of the Zohar but, the Zohar is sometimes &quot;strange&quot; (as the way it treats Lilith).&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now concerning purely your question, considering the small sources we have, and the fact they are often to be taken carefully, we have such a story with the &quot;pope of year 1000&quot;, Sylvestre II, Gerbert d'Aurillac. Gerbert d'Aurillac was a fairly intellectual man in Middle  Age. Because, as lots of Middle Age mathematicians, he took a great care studying muslim mathematician he was not so loved (he is one of the first men in Europe to use arabic number, way before Fibonacci). He is supposed to have befriendeded a succubus Meridiana. She is supposed to have been her &quot;dark council&quot; and completely helped him to become the Pope. She is known to have warn him to never preach in Jerusalem. He unfortunately prayed in a church of Jerusalem. that is a clear example of a succubus showing loyal love to her &quot;mate&quot;.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1957/who-what-is-lilith/1958#1958" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10809" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2639" RevisionGUID="d0617c44-5a86-41fa-9f9e-047da8496a42" CreationDate="2017-05-31T12:42:44.817" UserId="2774" Text="You have one thing to see when talking about the Elder Scrolls in general: The mythologoy behind the Elder Scrolls are the Elder scrolls. First and foremost this is what is followed and nothing else. That is to say that Skyrim is, yes, &quot;norse&quot; but &quot;norse&quot; is much more a general &quot;feeling&quot; than following '&quot;norse&quot; mythology.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;You have also to see that the Elder Scrolls are taping, vastly, in way more things than &quot;norse&quot;. The Imperials are taping vastly in the Roman empire, seated in a Medieval period. The werewolves are taping in the modern representation of the modern beast; etc. &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;I will illustrate how &quot;norse&quot; will taint Skyrim:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In the opening sequence, on the cart, you meet a &quot;horse thief&quot; named &quot;Lokir of Rorikstead&quot;. Anyone knowing the norse will see an amusing reference to Loki, father of Sleipnir (Odin's horse) and god of deception.&#xD;&#xA; - During the companion quest you try to put back together the shattered mythical axe Wuuthrad, that is fairly clearly inspired by the shattered sword of Sigurd/Siegfried Gram.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note also that: Broken weapons are not especially norse stuff. I still do believe that both Lokir, and Wuuthrad are &quot;referencing&quot; norse things more than anything else.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now regarding you specific question. Alduin is a legendary dragon. In term of myth, dragons, malevolent ne, as Alduin, are omnipresent. Example: Tiamat, in Mesopotamia, or Apopis in Egypt. Notice both those dragon are as close reference to Alduin as the one I am giving you:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Niddhogr is a giant dragon that eats the root of the World tree Yggdrasill. Niddhogr is completely as malevolent as Alduin, both are god-like creatures. Both are trying to put an end to the world.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As everywhere in the Elder Scrolls what is mattering to them is the &quot;Elder scrolls' lore first and foremost. In the case of Skyrim this lore is tainted all over with norse mythology. But it is only a far taint (rightfully). You will not see Odin, Fricka or Valkyries entering the Elder Scrolls pantheon." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10810" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2633" RevisionGUID="c863029e-cdd1-477a-bd4a-56d09b40891a" CreationDate="2017-05-31T13:27:40.903" UserId="3834" Comment="Changed the scope of the question" Text="Are there any dragons in mythological history that have been able to breathe fire while underwater?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10811" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2633" RevisionGUID="c863029e-cdd1-477a-bd4a-56d09b40891a" CreationDate="2017-05-31T13:27:40.903" UserId="3834" Comment="Changed the scope of the question" Text="Have any Dragons in History been able to Breathe Fire Under Water?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10812" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2640" RevisionGUID="a321738e-a12f-41ab-9556-1b3d9c4d3d80" CreationDate="2017-05-31T14:44:09.200" UserId="3847" Text="Theoretically, if Zeus and his siblings were able to hold down and chop Kronos into pieces, effectively &quot;killing&quot; him, could there be a way for the gods or goddesses to die as well? And since the Titans were actually stronger than the gods, would it take as much power/people to kill them, or would it be easier for them to be killed?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10813" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2640" RevisionGUID="a321738e-a12f-41ab-9556-1b3d9c4d3d80" CreationDate="2017-05-31T14:44:09.200" UserId="3847" Text="Can the Greek Gods Be Killed?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10814" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2640" RevisionGUID="a321738e-a12f-41ab-9556-1b3d9c4d3d80" CreationDate="2017-05-31T14:44:09.200" UserId="3847" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10817" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2643" RevisionGUID="0691fb1d-435b-4391-b802-fa377ad378c9" CreationDate="2017-05-31T16:58:27.850" UserId="3850" Text="The Greek Gods can't &quot;Die&quot;, but they can be crippled forever, chopped into tiny pieces, or just fade.  For example, when Kronos sliced Ouranus (Uranus) to death, Ouranus was never able to have a physical form again.  Helios and Selene were replaced by Apollo and Artemis and they faded.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, they can only be put in extreme agony or fade forever." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10820" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="1622" RevisionGUID="13322a12-10e8-4869-b54d-9e4b5f4e6c53" CreationDate="2017-05-31T17:01:46.410" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="10821" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2644" RevisionGUID="1b619129-4d82-4487-8c97-1f1a480e1025" CreationDate="2017-05-31T17:22:38.453" UserId="3302" Text="So there appears to be an astrology tag with very few questions.  This somewhat represents mythology around cancer specifically.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why does the astrology sign for cancer seem to represent a yin and yang?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If this is not acceptable please vote to close and I will delete it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/PbJM1.gif" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10822" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2644" RevisionGUID="1b619129-4d82-4487-8c97-1f1a480e1025" CreationDate="2017-05-31T17:22:38.453" UserId="3302" Text="Why does the astrology sign for cancer seem to represent a yin and yang?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10823" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2644" RevisionGUID="1b619129-4d82-4487-8c97-1f1a480e1025" CreationDate="2017-05-31T17:22:38.453" UserId="3302" Text="|astrology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10825" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2644" RevisionGUID="79750cf7-e1bc-4f91-99d3-a8922a62d59d" CreationDate="2017-05-31T17:54:24.860" UserId="3302" Comment="added 230 characters in body" Text="So there appears to be an astrology tag with very few questions.  This somewhat represents mythology around cancer specifically.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why does the astrology sign for cancer seem to represent a yin and yang?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [this][2] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This is also seen as two crab's claws, intertwined in a way which&#xD;&#xA;&gt; represents the dual nature of the Cancerian personality.  In this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; form, it would be understood as similar to the Asian Yin and Yang&#xD;&#xA;&gt; symbol.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/PbJM1.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.elore.com/Astrology/Study/cancer.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10827" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2644" RevisionGUID="43971843-427b-469b-9acd-393aaac4292e" CreationDate="2017-05-31T18:03:33.687" UserId="3302" Comment="added 29 characters in body" Text="So there appears to be an astrology tag with very few questions.  This somewhat represents mythology around cancer specifically.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why does the astrology sign for cancer seem to represent a yin and yang?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [this][2] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This is also seen as two crab's claws, intertwined in a way which&#xD;&#xA;&gt; represents the dual nature of the Cancerian personality.  In this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; form, it would be understood as similar to the Asian Yin and Yang&#xD;&#xA;&gt; symbol.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is this all there is to it?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/PbJM1.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.elore.com/Astrology/Study/cancer.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10831" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2646" RevisionGUID="274b8e67-bcad-4469-8b93-bd13377c35db" CreationDate="2017-05-31T20:23:44.517" UserId="3302" Text="If you read the book &quot;Divine Love Astrology: Revealing Spiritual Truth for Personal Transformation&quot; it briefly mentions the following.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The symbol for Cancer represents a crab's claws and also symbolizes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the yin and yang or the male and the female joined in the fertilized&#xD;&#xA;&gt; egg." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10832" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2646" RevisionGUID="6c40fefa-58e1-4714-9e44-01a77a81f3fe" CreationDate="2017-05-31T20:50:32.970" UserId="3302" Comment="added 184 characters in body" Text="If you read the book &quot;Divine Love Astrology: Revealing Spiritual Truth for Personal Transformation&quot; it briefly mentions the following.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The symbol for Cancer represents a crab's claws and also symbolizes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the yin and yang or the male and the female joined in the fertilized&#xD;&#xA;&gt; egg.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cancer I believe has often been viewed as very carrying so maybe this has to do with the opposing opposites of male vs female characteristics but I haven't found a source for this." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10834" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2643" RevisionGUID="df4633fc-5241-43f0-b66c-08aa85a96615" CreationDate="2017-06-01T12:14:03.883" UserId="3850" Comment="added 139 characters in body" Text="The Greek Gods can't &quot;Die&quot;, but they can be crippled forever, chopped into tiny pieces, or just fade.  For example, when Kronos sliced Ouranus (Uranus) to death, Ouranus was never able to have a physical form again.  In the 3rd Century BC, people referred to Apollo and Helios and Artemis and Selene as the same gods.  Then eventually people forgot about both Helios and Selene.  That would mean that Helios and Selene faded.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, they can only be put in extreme agony or fade forever.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10835" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2640" RevisionGUID="382e2946-afdf-462e-9cf7-df58282b4c5c" CreationDate="2017-06-01T12:54:17.933" UserId="3847" Comment="added 213 characters in body; edited title" Text="Theoretically, if Zeus and his siblings were able to hold down and chop Kronos into pieces, effectively &quot;killing&quot; him, could there be a way for the gods or goddesses to die as well? And since the Titans were actually stronger than the gods, would it take as much power/people to kill them, or would it be easier for them to be killed?&#xD;&#xA;Edit: very sorry for not being ever so specific, I typed this hurriedly so I apologize. Can the gods be &quot;killed&quot; to a point where they can either not come back (formless) or captured and/or basically imprisoned?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10836" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2640" RevisionGUID="382e2946-afdf-462e-9cf7-df58282b4c5c" CreationDate="2017-06-01T12:54:17.933" UserId="3847" Comment="added 213 characters in body; edited title" Text="Can the Greek Gods Be &quot;Killed&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10837" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2640" RevisionGUID="40e6342a-7cc5-4709-b499-6db59fc4390c" CreationDate="2017-06-01T13:03:02.453" UserId="3847" Comment="added 213 characters in body; edited title" Text="Theoretically, if Zeus and his siblings were able to hold down and chop Chronos into pieces, effectively &quot;killing&quot; him, could there be a way for the gods or goddesses to die as well? And since the Titans were actually stronger than the gods, would it take as much power/people to kill them, or would it be easier for them to be killed?&#xD;&#xA;Edit: very sorry for not being ever so specific, I typed this hurriedly so I apologize. Can the gods be &quot;killed&quot; to a point where they can either not come back (formless) or captured and/or imprisoned? Again, for not being specific, SIMILARLY to the story of (mythology has several different kinds of stories/versions) Chronos being imprisoned, could any of the gods or goddesses also be imprisoned in such a way and (if they can be imprisoned) what would be able to hold them. Again, if it would be easier to capture them than the version/story of the Chronos?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10838" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2647" RevisionGUID="22b825c2-3146-4082-88b7-5ed6d412e086" CreationDate="2017-06-01T20:08:45.160" UserId="2892" Text="Offhand, I can't think of any examples of Greek gods dying.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Casting down into Tartarus seems to be the favored Ancient Greek methods for taking the old powers &quot;off the game board&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The turning to stone of Atlas is an alternate method, although he &quot;lives on&quot; as a mountain range that still bears his name.  (This is similar to the memoriams of various tragic figures in Greek mythology who are transformed into constellations.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-Dionysus/Zagreus was dismembered and returned to life, so even [sparagmos][1] is not lethal for such creatures.  [See also [this answer][2] for a little more detail.] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The binding of Prometheus is another example of constraining a rival power without killing that power, possibly because that power represents an eternal idea or ideas.  (Plato would likely provide insight into this concept, which features in Ancient Greek mythology and philosophy, and provides an intersection for the two fields.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where we do tend see fatal consequences for supernatural creatures in Greek Mythology is the vanquishing monsters to tame the landscape for civilization to blossom.  Heracles is particularly famous for this, killing creatures such as the Hydra in his labors, and also taking part in the [Gigantomachy][3] in which many earth born giants were slain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------&#xD;&#xA;Sorry for the brevity of this answer.  When I get some more time, I'll try to come back and add more detail and links.  In the meantime, you might want to read a little Ovid--his [Metamorphosis][4] is a very comprehensive catalog of of the myths by perhaps the most influential of all the ancient mythographers (not least per his tremendous influence on Shakespeare) and you will immediately note an emphasis on transformation as opposed to death.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparagmos&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2513/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giants_(Greek_mythology)#The_Gigantomachy&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphoses" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10839" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2633" RevisionGUID="4f8ec1ac-3705-49a6-9ad6-1d962d7f5cc9" CreationDate="2017-06-01T21:16:01.813" UserId="2892" Comment="I think this is a legit question, and interesting as well" Text="Are there any dragons in any mythological canons that have been able to breathe fire while underwater?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10840" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2633" RevisionGUID="4f8ec1ac-3705-49a6-9ad6-1d962d7f5cc9" CreationDate="2017-06-01T21:16:01.813" UserId="2892" Comment="I think this is a legit question, and interesting as well" Text="Have any dragons in mythology been able to breathe fire underwater?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10841" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2644" RevisionGUID="d4c88e68-4e21-4b32-a155-78938d9c264a" CreationDate="2017-06-02T01:39:50.360" UserId="3302" Comment="added 161 characters in body" Text="So there appears to be an astrology tag with very few questions.  This somewhat represents mythology around cancer specifically.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why does the astrology sign for cancer seem to represent a yin and yang?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [this][2] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This is also seen as two crab's claws, intertwined in a way which&#xD;&#xA;&gt; represents the dual nature of the Cancerian personality.  In this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; form, it would be understood as similar to the Asian Yin and Yang&#xD;&#xA;&gt; symbol.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is this all there is to it?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;!-- &#xD;&#xA;https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2366/what-deities-creatures-personify-the-universe-in-the-aspect-that-it-manifests-as/2378#2378&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/PbJM1.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.elore.com/Astrology/Study/cancer.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10842" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2638" RevisionGUID="5ca20876-1cb7-48eb-8a36-b90aeeabe17b" CreationDate="2017-06-02T10:17:07.417" UserId="2774" Comment="Rework the hebraic part" Text="This question is not as fairly easy to answer as what you can expect. One of the huge problem we have is &quot;succubuses&quot; (or &quot;succubi&quot;) are not well defined creatures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hebraic sources&#xD;&#xA;---------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We have two main Hebraic sources:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. The Alpa beta (or Alphabet of Ben Sira): That book is the one where the infamous [Lilith][1] appears and let's face it, this book is a giant troll book.I linked to you an analysis of Lilith I gave some time ago.&#xD;&#xA; 2. The Zohar: Another questionable book, certainly less than the AB, but still, cf the link I gave. There we find such demons, named the four queens of Hell (Lilith, Agrat Bat Malhat, Naamah, Eisheth Zenunim).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What we can see here is: Succubuses are clearly defined female demons, and in the Zohar they are simply the mothers of the demons (except Lilith, which is sterile). The Zohar is vastly used to build the Kabbalah, but sometimes it is a difficult book to understand or &quot;follow&quot; as I shown in the Lilith's answer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Middle age sources&#xD;&#xA;------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Middle age is a &quot;funky&quot; time where people was debating over such questions as &quot;Can God defecate ?&quot; (yes they did). And during Middle Age there will be a lot of discussion on the nature of the succubuses.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The question of the sex and ability to reproduce of those demons has been question over and over.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Thomas of Aquinas suggested that succubuses and incubuses was a unique demon, switching sex, stealing semen as a female over human being male and using it on female to impregnate them. Merlin, in the Arthurian cycle is such a man (The usual name of such an offspring is 'cambion').&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In the Malleus Maleficarium, another infamous troll book (this time in the very bad sense, because it has been quite read), the anti-witch book by excellence. In this book the succubus will steal some semen to human male, give it to an incubus (or shift into an incubus, depends) and impregnate a woman given her malformed offspring.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In substance Middle Age denied angel and demon any reproducing ability. But linking those demons with high sexual perversion they tried to find way to explain that.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meridiana&#xD;&#xA;---------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now concerning purely your question, considering the small sources we have, and the fact they are often to be taken carefully, we have such a story with the &quot;pope of year 1000&quot;, Sylvestre II, Gerbert d'Aurillac. Gerbert d'Aurillac was a fairly intellectual man in Middle  Age. Because, as lots of Middle Age mathematicians, he took a great care studying muslim mathematician he was not so loved (he is one of the first men in Europe to use arabic number, way before Fibonacci). He is supposed to have befriendeded a succubus Meridiana. She is supposed to have been her &quot;dark council&quot; and completely helped him to become the Pope. She is known to have warn him to never preach in Jerusalem. He unfortunately prayed in a church of Jerusalem. that is a clear example of a succubus showing loyal love to her &quot;mate&quot;.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1957/who-what-is-lilith/1958#1958" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10843" PostHistoryTypeId="11" PostId="2633" RevisionGUID="551dbaa0-2f10-4655-a2e1-57e46f5d35ae" CreationDate="2017-06-02T10:30:58.873" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:2774,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Gibet&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:292,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;solsdottir&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:2892,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;DukeZhou&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:967,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;bleh&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:111,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;plannapus&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="10844" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2648" RevisionGUID="5c2f11e0-47ae-4486-89ee-2f66187e4121" CreationDate="2017-06-02T16:53:32.890" UserId="2892" Text="Interest in this epithet of Odin's was renewed when it was casually tossed out in a recent episode of [American Gods][1].*   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question has three parts:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. What is the meaning of Grimnir?  I found this Old Norse lexical entry for [grimmr][2] but welcome more detail.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. Is this epithet restricted entirely to the [Grímnismál][3] or is it common across the canon?    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. Is it correct that the use of &quot;grim&quot; in names is a reference to Odin.  Thorgrim, Hallgrim, Skallagrim, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;I mention the work that prompted the question b/c I consider [Gaiman][4] an exemplar of modern adaptation of mythological material. It is work noting that the *de facto* name for Odin in American Gods is &quot;[Mr. Wednesday][5]&quot;, which I point out because it is meaningful, and presents a contrast to to other, recent, popular, influential re-imaginings of mythology in which the adaption of the names of mythological figures is meaningless. Gaiman, by contrast, is subtle, accurate, meaningful, careful, and, when innovating, enviably insightful, and therefore worth mentioning. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Gods&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=grimm&amp;la=non&amp;can=grimm0&amp;prior=at#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gr%C3%ADmnism%C3%A1l&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Gaiman#Literary_allusions&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://americangods.wikia.com/wiki/Mr._Wednesday" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10845" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2648" RevisionGUID="5c2f11e0-47ae-4486-89ee-2f66187e4121" CreationDate="2017-06-02T16:53:32.890" UserId="2892" Text="Meaning and usage of Grimnir?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10846" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2648" RevisionGUID="5c2f11e0-47ae-4486-89ee-2f66187e4121" CreationDate="2017-06-02T16:53:32.890" UserId="2892" Text="|norse|odin|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10847" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2649" RevisionGUID="99c69dd5-4442-4c7a-9e31-83e3aa0bcc9f" CreationDate="2017-06-02T16:58:01.783" UserId="3856" Text="I've been studying book two of the Aeneid, in which Diomedes and Odysseus steal the Palladium from Troy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My translation notes say that the Palladium was an image of Pallas, &quot;whom the Greeks identified with Athene and the Romans with Minerva&quot;. However, looking online a few sources have said that the palladium was made by Athena after she mortally wounded Pallas, daughter of Triton, and in remorse made it the image of Pallas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it an image of Pallas daughter of Triton, or is it an image of Athena? I hope someone could answer this for me please. Unfortunately my knowledge of the Greek gods is quite limited. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10848" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2649" RevisionGUID="99c69dd5-4442-4c7a-9e31-83e3aa0bcc9f" CreationDate="2017-06-02T16:58:01.783" UserId="3856" Text="Of whom was the Trojan Palladium supposed to be an image?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10849" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2649" RevisionGUID="99c69dd5-4442-4c7a-9e31-83e3aa0bcc9f" CreationDate="2017-06-02T16:58:01.783" UserId="3856" Text="|roman|trojan-war|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10850" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2626" RevisionGUID="80ba3cc4-119c-4ff1-8051-5322d44d2c39" CreationDate="2017-06-02T17:20:59.903" UserId="3827" Comment="citation from Silo's works" Text="Also worth to mention the Phoenix-method, as per Tao.&#xD;&#xA;Its gives full rebirth capacities, although it is somewhat hard way...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can read about the Phoenix and the Dragon for example in &quot;Universal Root Myths&quot; by Mario Rodríguez Cobos (Silo), although it is already an interpretation from older sources which you can find there. You can find it here and you can follow the references in the book:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- http://silo.net/en/collected_works/universal_root_myths&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And the part is:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Universal Root Myths&#xD;&#xA;## V. Chinese Myths&#xD;&#xA;### The Dragon and the Phoenix&#xD;&#xA;[6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When the waters were not yet under control and the overflowing rivers inundated the fields, the mother goddess gave birth to beneficent offspring, who began to give order to the chaos of the times. The brilliant dragons sailed through the waters and the sky as they brought under control the rivers and lakes, the sea and the clouds. On high they roared, as with tiger paw and eagle talon they rent the curtains snapping in the great gusts of wind, unleashing the rains. They gave the rivers their courses, contained the lakes, and gave depth to the seas. They made the caverns from which water gushes forth, and they made the subterranean channels through which the water flows great distances, to later spring suddenly to the surface, untouched by the scorching sun. They traced the lines that run through the mountains and allow the energy of the Earth to flow, balancing the health of that gigantic body. And more often than not they had to struggle with problems provoked by gods and men, busy with their irresponsible strivings. Smoke would pour out from between their jaws, a life-giving and humid mist, a creator of unreal worlds. With their scaly, serpentine bodies they would cut through the storms and cleave the typhoons. Against their powerful horns and sharp teeth no obstacle could endure, no entanglement could stand. And they were much given to appearing to the mortals. Sometimes they would appear in dreams, sometimes in grottoes, sometimes along the shores of lakes—particularly those places where it was their custom to hide their crystalline dwellings, whose beautiful gardens were adorned with sparkling fruits and the most precious stones.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Immortal Long, the celestial dragon, always placed his activity (his Yang) at the service of the Tao, and the Tao recognized this, allowing him to be in all things, from the largest to the smallest, from the great Universe to the least particle. Everything that has lived has lived thanks to Long. Nothing has remained immutable save the unnamable Tao; even the silently nameable Tao is transformed, thanks to the activity of Long. And not even those who believe in Heaven and Hell can ensure their permanence.[7]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But Long loves Feng, the Phoenix bird who concentrates the seed of things, who contracts that which Long extends. And when Long and Feng are balanced, the Tao shines like a pearl bathed in the purest light. Long does not struggle against Feng—because they love each other, they search for each other, making the pearl shine. Because of this, the wise arrange their lives according to the balance between the Dragon and the Phoenix—the images of the sacred principles of the Yang and the Yin. The sages position themselves in the empty place, searching for equilibrium. The wise understand that non-action generates action and that action generates non-action. May the beating hearts of all living things and the waters of the sea, the day and the night, the winter and the summer, follow the rhythm marked for them by the Tao. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the end of this age, when the Universe will have reached its greatest extension, it will contract once again like a falling stone. Everything, even time, will invert, returning to the beginning. The Dragon and the Phoenix will meet again. The Yang and the Yin will interpenetrate; so great will be their attraction that they will absorb everything into the empty seed of the Tao. The sky above, the Earth below—with this the creative and the receptive are determined, with this the changes and transformations are revealed.[8]&#xD;&#xA;But no one can really know how things have been or how they will be, and if someone did know they would not be able to explain it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So it is that: To know that you do not know is best; he who pretends to know when he does not, has an infirm mind. He who recognizes an infirm mind as infirm does not have an infirm mind. The mind of the wise is not an infirm mind, because the wise recognize the infirm mind as infirm.[9]" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10851" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2648" RevisionGUID="5513f881-45d8-435e-9184-8301cc5439b8" CreationDate="2017-06-02T18:05:54.323" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 352 characters in body" Text="Interest in this epithet of Odin's was renewed when it was casually tossed out in a recent episode of [American Gods][1].*   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question has three parts:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. What is the meaning of Grimnir?  I found this Old Norse lexical entry for [grimmr][2] but welcome more detail.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. Is this epithet restricted entirely to the [Grímnismál][3] or is it common across the canon?    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. Is it correct that the use of &quot;grim&quot; in names is a reference to Odin.  Thorgrim, Hallgrim, Skallagrim, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;I mention the work that prompted the question b/c I consider [Gaiman][4] an exemplar of modern adaptation of mythological material. It is work noting that the *de facto* name for Odin in American Gods is &quot;[Mr. Wednesday][5]&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Gods&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=grimm&amp;la=non&amp;can=grimm0&amp;prior=at#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gr%C3%ADmnism%C3%A1l&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Gaiman#Literary_allusions&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://americangods.wikia.com/wiki/Mr._Wednesday" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10852" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2650" RevisionGUID="44224b0e-dc49-436a-8895-517a7ea76328" CreationDate="2017-06-02T18:41:14.577" UserId="2892" Text="This is just a preliminary answer because I need to run down the sources, which I will post here for reference, but don't have time to do atm.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - It is an image of Pallas (hence the name) fashioned by Athena.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pallas and Athena are very closely linked in Classical Mythology--Pallas may be understood as an aspect of Athena, and her death at the hands of Athena can be seen as Athena absorbing her identity, thus &quot;Pallas Athena&quot;.  (This is sort of similar to Zeus swallowing [Metis][1], who you will note is a [Oceanid][2]. [Triton][3], likewise, is a water deity, though from a different generation.  The confluence of Athena and Pallas almost certainly is related to this common, oceanic heritage.)   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metis_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceanid&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triton_(mythology)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10853" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2647" RevisionGUID="41791d1a-d6ce-40ad-824d-12eb7f4fa579" CreationDate="2017-06-02T18:47:29.177" UserId="2892" Comment="added 61 characters in body" Text="Offhand, I can't think of any examples of Greek gods dying.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Casting down into Tartarus seems to be the favored Ancient Greek methods for taking the old powers &quot;off the game board&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The turning to stone of Atlas is an alternate method, although he &quot;lives on&quot; as a mountain range that still bears his name.  (This is similar to the memoriams of various tragic figures in Greek mythology who are transformed into constellations.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Dionysus/Zagreus was dismembered and returned to life, so even [sparagmos][1] is not lethal for such creatures.  [See also [this answer][2] for a little more detail.] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The binding of Prometheus is another example of constraining a rival power without killing that power, possibly because that power represents an eternal idea or ideas.  (Plato would likely provide insight into this concept, which features in Ancient Greek mythology and philosophy, and provides an intersection for the two fields.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where we do tend see fatal consequences for supernatural creatures in Greek Mythology is the vanquishing monsters to tame the landscape so that civilization may blossom.  Heracles is particularly famous for this, killing creatures such as the [Hydra][3] in his labors, and taking part in the [Gigantomachy][4] in which many earth born giants were slain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------&#xD;&#xA;Sorry for the brevity of this answer.  When I get some more time, I'll try to come back and add more detail and links.  In the meantime, you might want to read a little Ovid--his [Metamorphosis][5] is a very comprehensive catalog of of the myths by perhaps the most influential of all the ancient mythographers (not least per his tremendous influence on Shakespeare) and you will immediately note an emphasis on transformation as opposed to death.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparagmos&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2513/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lernaean_Hydra&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giants_(Greek_mythology)#The_Gigantomachy&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphoses" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10854" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2650" RevisionGUID="469293aa-48dd-418e-880e-4bd499ae6499" CreationDate="2017-06-02T19:37:18.783" UserId="2892" Comment="added 66 characters in body" Text="This is just a preliminary answer because I need to run down the sources, which I will post here for reference, but don't have time to do atm.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - It is an image of Pallas (hence the name) reputedly fashioned by Athena.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pallas and Athena are very closely linked in Classical Mythology--Pallas may be understood as an aspect of Athena, and her death at the hands of Athena can be seen as Athena absorbing her identity, thus &quot;Pallas Athena&quot;.  (This is sort of similar to Zeus swallowing [Metis][1], although in the latter case Zeus transfers Metis' quality to their daughter.  You will note that Metis is a [Oceanid][2] and that [Triton][3], likewise, is a water deity. The confluence of Athena and Pallas is almost certainly related to this common, oceanic heritage.)   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metis_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceanid&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triton_(mythology)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10855" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2648" RevisionGUID="c8c51c85-ef95-42d6-b014-eea78be83359" CreationDate="2017-06-02T20:23:59.407" UserId="3858" Comment="Fixed some spelling" Text="Interest in this epithet of Odin's was renewed when it was casually tossed out in a recent episode of [American Gods][1]. *   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question has three parts:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. What is the meaning of Grimnir?  I found this Old Norse lexical entry for [grimmr][2] but welcome more detail.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. Is this epithet restricted entirely to the [Grímnismál][3] or is it common across the canon?    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. Is it correct that the use of &quot;grim&quot; in names is a reference to Odin.  Thorgrim, Hallgrim, Skallagrim, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;\* I mention the work that prompted the question because I consider [Gaiman][4] an exemplar of modern adaptation of mythological material. It is worth noting that the *de facto* name for Odin in American Gods is &quot;[Mr. Wednesday][5]&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Gods&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=grimm&amp;la=non&amp;can=grimm0&amp;prior=at#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gr%C3%ADmnism%C3%A1l&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Gaiman#Literary_allusions&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://americangods.wikia.com/wiki/Mr._Wednesday" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10856" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2648" RevisionGUID="c8c51c85-ef95-42d6-b014-eea78be83359" CreationDate="2017-06-02T20:23:59.407" Comment="Proposed by 3858 approved by 2892 edit id of 441" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10857" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2651" RevisionGUID="11a0dbd4-a9d0-4055-ab9c-b18624d3e6ca" CreationDate="2017-06-02T20:47:43.893" UserId="666" Text="*Grím* seems to be a variant of &quot;Grímnir&quot;, which means &quot;masked person&quot;. A very apt name for Odin. The closest English equivalent is &quot;grimace&quot;, while &quot;grim&quot; (similar meaning in old Norse and modern English) seems to be distantly related, and only appears as a byname of Odin, &quot;Asagrim&quot;, in a medieval Swedish ballad. (Note the difference between &quot;Grím&quot; and &quot;Grim&quot;).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Grímnir and Grím both appear in *Grímnismál*, they also appear in a portion of  *Snorri's Edda* dealing with the names of Odin. Grímnir also appears in Scaldic poetry as a name for Odin. Wikipedia has a useful [list of names of Odin][1] which also gives which sources they appear in.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The other names where &quot;Grím&quot; is a part are likely just names (in particular, &quot;Thorgrim&quot; already has the name of one God as a part, and would not seem to need another one). Note that it's actually &quot;Skalla-Grím&quot;, 'bald Grím'.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For etymology, I consulted [Nordiskt runnamnslexikon][2], a list of names appearing on runestones. It gives &quot;GrímR&quot; -&quot;someone who wears a mask&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I also checked Thorgrim and Hallgrim in the [database of Nordiska museet][4]. I only found &quot;Torgrim&quot;, but it did not indicate any connection with Odin. &quot;Hall&quot; means &quot;stone&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An old Norse version of *Gylfaginning* can be found [here][5].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_names_of_Odin&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sprakochfolkminnen.se/download/18.6dffb94c149794d926e379/1415279748920/Runnamnslexikon_T+141106.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.saob.se/artikel/?seek=grimma&amp;pz=1&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://historiska.se/nomina/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.heimskringla.no/wiki/Gylfaginning" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10858" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2639" RevisionGUID="d393ee63-ba2b-48c0-9d6a-19e6cc7b62f6" CreationDate="2017-06-02T21:19:57.040" UserId="2774" Comment="Add a skyrim section + edit the text" Text="Elder Scrolls Lore&#xD;&#xA;------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**This passage is for people wanting to know a little bit about Skyrim lore.**&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Skyrim is the 5th official game in the Elder Scrolls serie (I do not count the other games and spin off novels and such)&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The elder Scrolls is situated in Tamriel in a typical Medieval fantasy setting (So you will find orcs, elves and dwarves). Skyrim is a north province. Its inhabitants, the Nords, are obviously using Viking as reference. The Redguards are using the Arabic culture. The Imperials, Rome.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In the game Skyrim the ancient God Alduin, The world Eater, a dragon of immense power is coming to Tamriel and precisely Skyrim to... destroy the world. He is helped by an army of immortal dragons he is raising. Unfortunately for Him a powerful warrior, the Dragonborn, a warrior who can absorb the souls of the dragons, thus killing them will rise against him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Answer&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You have one thing to see when talking about the Elder Scrolls in general: The mythologoy behind the Elder Scrolls is the Elder scrolls. First and foremost this is what is followed and nothing else. That is to say that Skyrim is, yes, &quot;norse&quot;, but &quot;norse&quot;, is much more a general &quot;feeling&quot; than following &quot;norse&quot; mythology.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;You have also to see that the Elder Scrolls are taping, vastly, in way more things than &quot;norse&quot;. The Imperials are following the Roman empire, seated in a Medieval period. The werewolves are inspired by the modern representation of the modern beast; etc. &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;I will illustrate, here, how &quot;norse&quot; will taint Skyrim:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In the opening sequence, on the cart, you meet a &quot;horse thief&quot; named &quot;Lokir of Rorikstead&quot;. Anyone knowing the norse mythology will see an amusing reference to Loki, father of Sleipnir (Odin's horse) and god of deception (thievery).&#xD;&#xA; - During the companion quest you try to put back together the shattered mythical axe Wuuthrad, that is fairly clearly inspired by the shattered sword of Sigurd/Siegfried Gram.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note also that: Broken weapons are not especially norse stuff (think about Narsil in the Lord of the Ring) . I still do believe that both Lokir, and Wuuthrad are &quot;referencing&quot; norse things more than anything else.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now regarding you specific question. Alduin is a legendary dragon. In term of myth, dragons, malevolent one, as Alduin, are omnipresent. Example: Tiamat, in Mesopotamia, or Apopis in Egypt. Notice both those dragons are as close reference to Alduin as the one I am giving you:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Niddhogr is a giant dragon that eats the root of the World tree Yggdrasill. Niddhogr is completely as malevolent as Alduin, both are god-like creatures. Both are trying to put an end to the world.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As everywhere in the Elder Scrolls what is mattering to them is the &quot;Elder scrolls' lore first and foremost. In the case of Skyrim this lore is tainted all over with norse mythology. But it is only a far taint (rightfully). You will not see Odin, Fricka or Valkyries entering the Elder Scrolls pantheon. the do ot end the Elder Scrolls lore to fit the Norse mythology. They just bring some &quot;norse mythology element&quot; to have this little norse feeling in the game." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10860" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2638" RevisionGUID="3c2753f7-7091-4073-afdc-f88a48230d0d" CreationDate="2017-06-02T21:31:21.333" UserId="2774" Comment="small edits" Text="This question is not as fairly easy to answer as what you can expect. One of the huge problem we have is &quot;succubuses&quot; (or &quot;succubi&quot;) are not well defined creatures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hebraic sources&#xD;&#xA;---------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We have two main Hebraic sources:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. The Alpa beta (or Alphabet of Ben Sira): That book is the one where the infamous [Lilith][1] appears and let's face it, this book is a giant troll book.I linked to you an analysis of Lilith I gave some time ago.&#xD;&#xA; 2. The Zohar: Another questionable book, certainly less than the AB, but still, cf the link I gave. There we find such demons, named the four queens of Hell (Lilith, Agrat Bat Malhat, Naamah, Eisheth Zenunim).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What we can see here is: Succubuses are clearly defined as female demons, and in the Zohar they are simply the mothers of all the demons (except Lilith, which is sterile). The Zohar is vastly used to build the Kabbalah, but sometimes it is a book difficult to understand or &quot;follow&quot; as I shown in the Lilith's answer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Middle age sources&#xD;&#xA;------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Middle age is a &quot;funky&quot; time where people was debating over such questions as &quot;Can God defecate ?&quot; (yes they did). And during Middle Age there will be a lot of discussion on the nature of the succubuses.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The question of the sex and ability to reproduce of those demons has been question over and over.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Thomas of Aquinas suggested that succubuses and incubuses was a unique demon, switching sex, stealing semen as a female over human being male and using it on female to impregnate them. Merlin, in the Arthurian cycle is such a man (The usual name of such an offspring is 'cambion').&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In the Malleus Maleficarium, another infamous troll book (this time in the very bad sense, because it has been quite read), the anti-witch book by excellence. In this book the succubus will steal some semen to human male, give it to an incubus (or shift into an incubus, depends) and impregnate a woman given her malformed offspring.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In substance Middle Age denied angels and demons any reproducing ability. But linking those demons with high sexual perversion they tried to find way to explain that.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meridiana&#xD;&#xA;---------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now concerning purely your question, considering the small sources we have, and the fact they are often to be taken carefully, we have such a story with the &quot;pope of year 1000&quot;, Sylvestre II, Gerbert d'Aurillac. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gerbert of Aurillac&#xD;&#xA;===================&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gerbert d'Aurillac was a fairly intellectual man in Middle Age. Because, as lots of Middle Age mathematicians, he took a great care studying muslim mathematicians, he was not so loved (he is one of the first men in Europe to use arabic numbers, way before Leonardo do Pisa, Fibonacci (roughly 200 years)).&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Walter Map's De nugis curialium&#xD;&#xA;===============================&#xD;&#xA;The story of Meridiana is known to us by Walter Map's De nugis Curilium written way after Gerbert's death.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He is supposed to have befriendeded a succubus Meridiana. She is supposed to have been her &quot;dark council&quot; and completely helped him to become the Pope. She is known to have warn him to never preach in Jerusalem. He unfortunately prayed in a church of Jerusalem. that is a clear example of a succubus showing loyal love to her &quot;mate&quot;.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1957/who-what-is-lilith/1958#1958" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10861" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2653" RevisionGUID="5bf53d83-41cd-4f08-ae3d-106068bbc888" CreationDate="2017-06-03T06:16:20.357" UserId="2708" Text="As far as I know this heavily depends on whether you consider later additions to the mythology by Christian missionaries to be canon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The original idea was to describe the end of the world that hasn't happened similar to the Christian Revelation. Otherwise they'd worship dead gods, there'd be no Walhalla waiting, etc. which would basically screw up everything.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However missionaries used those exact thoughts to mix their original mythology with the Christian Bible to explain and introduce a continuity to convert them. Ragnarok already happened, but two people, a man and a woman survived hiding under Yggdrasil, named Adam and Eve." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10863" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2650" RevisionGUID="834bc0dc-1738-4d1d-a88e-5595af666257" CreationDate="2017-06-03T22:44:50.010" UserId="2892" Comment="Updated to include the Apollodorus source, and also added a note on the other Pallas. :)" Text=" - **It is an image of Pallas (hence the name) reputedly fashioned by Athena.**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can read about this version of the story, from the Pseudo-Apollodorus, on [Theoi's Pallas the Nymph page][1].*  You will also find some other interesting material there on Athena that relates to this Pallas.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pallas and Athena are very closely linked in Classical Mythology--Pallas may be understood as an aspect of Athena, and her death at the hands of Athena can be seen as Athena absorbing her identity, thus &quot;Pallas Athena&quot;.  (This is sort of similar to Zeus swallowing [Metis][2], although in the latter case Zeus transfers Metis' quality to their daughter.  You will note that Metis is a [Oceanid][3] and that [Triton][4], likewise, is a water deity. The confluence of Athena and Pallas is almost certainly related to this common, oceanic heritage.)   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------&#xD;&#xA;*To inject some confusion, there is also a [Titan Pallas][5], who, in some versions, Athena was said to have killed and skinned, and is the origin of her [aegis][6].*  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NymphePallas.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metis_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceanid&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triton_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanPallas.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegis" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10864" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2654" RevisionGUID="bff60adc-d9ab-429b-84eb-9c17c59186ec" CreationDate="2017-06-04T01:01:15.090" UserId="967" Text="Yes, they can die. Only example for this- Pan&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Then the voice said aloud to him, When you are arrived at Palodes, take care to make it known that the great God Pan is ***dead.***  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[plutarch][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for how he died... no idea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[related][2] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0252%3Asection%3D17&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1649/how-rare-is-a-dead-god?rq=1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10867" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2650" RevisionGUID="56e78936-39ce-4b41-84b4-80d61f98c1f3" CreationDate="2017-06-05T18:28:39.217" UserId="2892" Comment="Added comprehensive quotations on the subject, with links to peer-reviewed online sources" Text=" - **It is an image of Pallas (hence the name) reputedly fashioned by Athena.**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;This was the Palladium, a legless image three cubits high, made by Athene in memory of her dead Libyan playmate Pallas... whose name Athene added to her own.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Robert Graves, The Greek Myths, 158.i&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Graves is drawing partly from the [Bibliotheca][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;The story told about the Palladium is as follows: They say that when Athena was born she was brought up by Triton, who had a daughter Pallas; and that both girls practised the arts of war, but that once on a time they fell out; and when Pallas was about to strike a blow, Zeus in fear interposed the aegis, and Pallas, being startled, looked up, and so fell wounded by Athena. And being exceedingly grieved for her, Athena made a wooden image in her likeness, and wrapped the aegis, which she had feared, about the breast of it, and set it up beside Zeus and honored it. But afterwards Electra, at the time of her violation, took refuge at the image, and Zeus threw the Palladium along with Ate into the [Ilian country][2]; and [Ilus][3] built a temple for it, and honored it. Such is the legend of the Palladium.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Apollodorus, Library, 3.12.3 *(Sir James George Frazer, Ed.)][4]*&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pallas and Athena are very closely linked in Classical Mythology--Pallas may be understood as an aspect of Athena, and her death at the hands of Athena can be seen as Athena absorbing her identity, thus &quot;Pallas Athena&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*(This is sort of similar to Zeus swallowing [Metis][5], although in the latter case Zeus transfers Metis' quality to their daughter.)*  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Metis is a [Oceanid][6] and [Triton][7], likewise, is a water deity. The confluence of Athena and Pallas is almost certainly related to this common, oceanic heritage, in conjunction with the warlike aspect of the two maidens.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that in the Apollodorus account:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Athena, fully armed, leaped up from the top of [Zeus'] head at the river Triton.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Apollodorus, Library, 1.3.6 *(Sir James George Frazer, Ed.)][8]*&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And Pausanias goes so far as to say:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;...when I saw that the statue of Athena had blue eyes I found out that the legend about them is Libyan. For the Libyans have a saying that the Goddess is the daughter of Poseidon and Lake Tritonis, and for this reason has blue eyes like Poseidon.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Pausanias, Description of Greece, 1.14.6 *(Harvard Univ. Press, 1918)][9]*&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------&#xD;&#xA;Finally, to re-inject some confusion, there is also a [Titan Pallas][10], who, in some versions, [Athena was said to have killed and skinned][11], and is an origin of her [aegis][12].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliotheca_(Pseudo-Apollodorus)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy#Homeric_Troy&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilus&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D3%3Achapter%3D12%3Asection%3D3&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metis_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceanid&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triton_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D3%3Asection%3D6&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0160%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D14%3Asection%3D6&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanPallas.html&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D6%3Asection%3D2&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegis" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10868" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2626" RevisionGUID="129b7a25-5fb0-44bc-8e75-7d4fc44a7f65" CreationDate="2017-06-05T19:45:42.617" UserId="2892" Comment="Edited to highlight the quoted passages.  Answer still needs a breakdown of what this actually *means*, but the sources look solid." Text="Also worth to mention the Phoenix-method, as per Tao.&#xD;&#xA;Its gives full rebirth capacities, although it is somewhat hard way...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can read about the Phoenix and the Dragon for example in [Universal Root Myths by Mario Rodríguez Cobos (Silo)][1], although this work is itself an interpretation from older sources which you will find referenced there. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The specific section is as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; # Universal Root Myths&#xD;&#xA;## V. Chinese Myths&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ### The Dragon and the Phoenix&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;When the waters were not yet under control and the overflowing rivers inundated the fields, the mother goddess gave birth to beneficent offspring, who began to give order to the chaos of the times. The brilliant dragons sailed through the waters and the sky as they brought under control the rivers and lakes, the sea and the clouds. On high they roared, as with tiger paw and eagle talon they rent the curtains snapping in the great gusts of wind, unleashing the rains. They gave the rivers their courses, contained the lakes, and gave depth to the seas. They made the caverns from which water gushes forth, and they made the subterranean channels through which the water flows great distances, to later spring suddenly to the surface, untouched by the scorching sun. They traced the lines that run through the mountains and allow the energy of the Earth to flow, balancing the health of that gigantic body. And more often than not they had to struggle with problems provoked by gods and men, busy with their irresponsible strivings. Smoke would pour out from between their jaws, a life-giving and humid mist, a creator of unreal worlds. With their scaly, serpentine bodies they would cut through the storms and cleave the typhoons. Against their powerful horns and sharp teeth no obstacle could endure, no entanglement could stand. And they were much given to appearing to the mortals. Sometimes they would appear in dreams, sometimes in grottoes, sometimes along the shores of lakes—particularly those places where it was their custom to hide their crystalline dwellings, whose beautiful gardens were adorned with sparkling fruits and the most precious stones.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Immortal [Long][2], the celestial dragon, always placed his activity (his Yang) at the service of the Tao, and the Tao recognized this, allowing him to be in all things, from the largest to the smallest, from the great Universe to the least particle. Everything that has lived has lived thanks to Long. Nothing has remained immutable save the unnamable Tao; even the silently nameable Tao is transformed, thanks to the activity of Long. And not even those who believe in Heaven and Hell can ensure their permanence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;But Long loves Feng, the Phoenix bird who concentrates the seed of things, who contracts that which Long extends. And when Long and Feng are balanced, the Tao shines like a pearl bathed in the purest light. Long does not struggle against Feng—because they love each other, they search for each other, making the pearl shine. Because of this, the wise arrange their lives according to the balance between the Dragon and the Phoenix—the images of the sacred principles of the Yang and the Yin. The sages position themselves in the empty place, searching for equilibrium. The wise understand that non-action generates action and that action generates non-action. May the beating hearts of all living things and the waters of the sea, the day and the night, the winter and the summer, follow the rhythm marked for them by the Tao. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;At the end of this age, when the Universe will have reached its greatest extension, it will contract once again like a falling stone. Everything, even time, will invert, returning to the beginning. The Dragon and the Phoenix will meet again. The Yang and the Yin will interpenetrate; so great will be their attraction that they will absorb everything into the empty seed of the Tao. The sky above, the Earth below—with this the creative and the receptive are determined, with this the changes and transformations are revealed.[8]&#xD;&#xA;But no one can really know how things have been or how they will be, and if someone did know they would not be able to explain it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;So it is that: To know that you do not know is best; he who pretends to know when he does not, has an infirm mind. He who recognizes an infirm mind as infirm does not have an infirm mind. The mind of the wise is not an infirm mind, because the wise recognize the infirm mind as infirm.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://silo.net/en/collected_works/universal_root_myths&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_dragon" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10869" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2655" RevisionGUID="6d77a162-1218-4ad5-bae7-b8dcc1e1aa44" CreationDate="2017-06-05T20:15:36.610" UserId="3872" Text="Did the Indo-European people actually view the gods as physical or meta-physical beings *beyond* the view as archetypes?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If so, does this mean that the Indo-European people were, technically, atheists? Of course, I make no connection to the current wave of atheism, that is a whole other discussion that I want to avoid!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My thinking is that ceremonies and sacrifices alone don't constitute as &quot;religious&quot; activities if your gods are closer to you (not transcendental) than just floating in the sky. Does this make sense or should I explain more? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10870" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2655" RevisionGUID="6d77a162-1218-4ad5-bae7-b8dcc1e1aa44" CreationDate="2017-06-05T20:15:36.610" UserId="3872" Text="Were Ancient Europeans religious?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10871" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2655" RevisionGUID="6d77a162-1218-4ad5-bae7-b8dcc1e1aa44" CreationDate="2017-06-05T20:15:36.610" UserId="3872" Text="|norse|demi-gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10872" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2656" RevisionGUID="b8a8c3c0-1ecf-4f2d-a6e5-3963244bcffa" CreationDate="2017-06-06T01:10:15.830" UserId="1315" Text="When you say &quot;Indo-European people&quot;, really includes a lot of  beliefs. In different times of history is really hard to say and set a specific parameters of &quot;this people X believes in AB&quot;, since individuals are never the same - but this is only my  opinion, after all. You can find people who believes both physical, meta-physical beings beyond the view as archetypes... many traditions have similar aspects to incorporate (or invocate) the &quot;god&quot; itself in states of ecstasy, in some case using outside substances - drugs/medications - (for instance: wine, baco-dioniso) or inner substances (Consciousness level - dopamine, serotonin,etc..) through meditation and other techniques. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Towards your question about rituals, it really depends on how those people see their connections with their personal-god, higher-self, or whatever you name it. The use of not of rituals (or substances) is personal matter, people with different beliefs will consider some things necessary and others don't." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10873" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2655" RevisionGUID="5612fe73-aa3f-482a-81b5-033ed83b3fbb" CreationDate="2017-06-06T02:26:57.733" UserId="3872" Comment="noted above" Text="Did the Indo-European people actually view the gods as physical or meta-physical beings *beyond* the view as archetypes?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If so, does this mean that the Indo-European people were, technically, atheists? Of course, I make no connection to the current wave of atheism, that is a whole other discussion that I want to avoid!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My thinking is that ceremonies and sacrifices alone don't constitute as &quot;religious&quot; activities if your gods are closer to you (not transcendental) than just floating in the sky. Does this make sense or should I explain more? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Edit 1 - Upon the request of Others**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I mention Indo-European because it does, in fact, encompass a wide variety of people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I wanted to start this discussion here because I don't want philosophy to be the main impetus. If the European people thought of their gods as more physical than transcendental, it would imply that the people would consider it to be a way of life rather than religious behavior. Similar situations can be found in the military with &quot;warrior ethos&quot; when young warriors are expected to attend special ceremonies and other abstract forms of sacrifice for the common way of life." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10874" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2632" RevisionGUID="f3d39d8c-e50b-4c7a-89e6-7a348c8e9186" CreationDate="2017-06-06T12:00:22.963" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved formatting." Text="You can find a lot of sources on [Internet Sacred Text Archive](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/) ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You have to scroll down to approximately 7/8 and you can find all the fairy texts you need. Or ctrl-f fairies. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10875" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2656" RevisionGUID="6d7dbeb4-2a3b-4412-943e-581bd777d317" CreationDate="2017-06-06T21:14:27.180" UserId="1315" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="When you say &quot;Indo-European people&quot;, really includes a lot of  beliefs. In different times of history is really hard to say and set a specific parameters of &quot;this people X believes in AB&quot;, since individuals are never the same - but this is only my  opinion, after all. You can find people who believes both physical, meta-physical beings beyond the view as archetypes... many traditions have similar aspects to incorporate (or invocate) the &quot;god&quot; itself in states of ecstasy, in some case using outside substances - drugs/medications - (for instance: wine, baco-dioniso) or inner substances (Consciousness level - dopamine, serotonin,etc..) through meditation and other techniques. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Towards your question about rituals, it really depends on how those people see their connections with their personal-god, higher-self, or whatever you name it. The use (or not) of rituals (or substances) is personal matter, people with different beliefs will consider some things necessary and others don't." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10877" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2657" RevisionGUID="ebf69ab6-2da3-4d02-954a-3628b5a8e69f" CreationDate="2017-06-07T21:37:26.140" UserId="2892" Text="This answer will certainly be evolving, but to undercut your thesis, I'll refer you to the [Eleusinian Mysteries][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Much had been written on this subject, and theories abound.  One of my favorites, which I think will shed light on this issue for you, specifically in regards to the Indo-European roots, is [Persephone's Quest][2].  The subject is still likely regarded as fairly controversial, but the research is solid.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleusinian_Mysteries&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.com/books/about/Persephone_s_Quest.html?id=akI9uAhZAa8C" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10879" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2549" RevisionGUID="9d173e88-1fbb-420d-bead-5d523dfd86a9" CreationDate="2017-06-08T15:35:34.023" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="10880" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2656" RevisionGUID="31515bb9-2345-4cb4-8bff-e0525a80ab9b" CreationDate="2017-06-08T20:43:16.453" UserId="1315" Comment="edited body" Text="When you say &quot;Indo-European people&quot;, really includes a lot of  beliefs. In different times of history is really hard to say and set a specific parameters of &quot;this people X believes in AB&quot;, since individuals are never the same - but this is only my  opinion, after all. You can find people who believes both physical, meta-physical beings beyond the view as archetypes... many traditions have similar aspects to incorporate (or invocate) the &quot;god&quot; itself in states of ecstasy, in some case using outside substances - drugs/medications - (for instance: wine, baco-dioniso) or inner substances (Consciousness level - dopamine, serotonin,etc..) through meditation and other techniques. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Towards your question about rituals, it really depends on how those people see their connections with their personal-god, higher-self, or whatever you name it. The use (or not) of rituals (or substances) is personal matter, people with different beliefs will consider some things necessary and others won't." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10881" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2658" RevisionGUID="391eec25-5cc7-457c-9751-35cb4ab580ba" CreationDate="2017-06-08T23:19:07.123" UserId="292" Text="Katherine Mary Brigg's The Vanishing People: Fairy Lore and Legends, is a good source, as well as Evan-Wentz's The Fairy Faith in Celtic Countries and Robert Kirk's The Secret Commonwealth. They're all out of copyright, so at least some of them are in the Sacred Texts.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;I'd also recommend Diane Purkiss' At the Bottom of the Garden as a more modern look at fairies, as well as Barbara Rieti's Strange Terrain, but they're hard to find. Both focus on the darker side of fairy lore such as straying and changelings, and why people would tell such frightening stories." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10882" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2659" RevisionGUID="8e0fec86-ceac-46f1-af5b-a5f1f09948b2" CreationDate="2017-06-09T02:35:21.297" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Winged &quot;fairies&quot; often feature in fairytale, and a good example would be the (Fairy Godmother) [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairy Godmother]  from Cinderella. However, as, (this) [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairy Godmother] points out, the term &quot;fairies &quot; does not necessarily refer to the winged ones but instead, it refers to all(or most) magical, sentient races found in various mythologies. Examples of &quot;fairies&quot;, thus, can range from the Asian Yaoguai to the Norwich Alfar(Elves). Hence, what is the actual name of these winged &quot;fairies&quot;? On a side note, what is the origin of such creatures? All I know that could be its origin are the Greek (Psyche) [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cupid_and_Psyche]  and the Persian (Peri)[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peri]  . " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10883" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2659" RevisionGUID="8e0fec86-ceac-46f1-af5b-a5f1f09948b2" CreationDate="2017-06-09T02:35:21.297" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Who and what are the winged &quot;faries&quot; that feature in fairytale?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10884" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2659" RevisionGUID="8e0fec86-ceac-46f1-af5b-a5f1f09948b2" CreationDate="2017-06-09T02:35:21.297" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="|fairies|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10885" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2655" RevisionGUID="bb4dd277-5a16-4605-917d-1e9bb56408dd" CreationDate="2017-06-09T14:23:12.047" UserId="3872" Comment="added 1241 characters in body" Text="Did the Indo-European people actually view the gods as physical or meta-physical beings *beyond* the view as archetypes?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If so, does this mean that the Indo-European people were, technically, atheists? Of course, I make no connection to the current wave of atheism, that is a whole other discussion that I want to avoid!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My thinking is that ceremonies and sacrifices alone don't constitute as &quot;religious&quot; activities if your gods are closer to you (not transcendental) than just floating in the sky. Does this make sense or should I explain more? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Edit 1 - Upon the request of Others**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I mention Indo-European because it does, in fact, encompass a wide variety of people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I wanted to start this discussion here because I don't want philosophy to be the main impetus. If the European people thought of their gods as more physical than transcendental, it would imply that the people would consider it to be a way of life rather than religious behavior. Similar situations can be found in the military with &quot;warrior ethos&quot; when young warriors are expected to attend special ceremonies and other abstract forms of sacrifice for the common way of life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Edit 2 - Interesting Point**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason I felt necessary to bring it up was that of the idea that the gods and goddesses of old could have been real people or aliens, I don't know. Essentially, it could have been a group of people that were highly influencial in their times to have deserved to stay on peoples lips beyond their deaths. Of course, as all things passed down vocally, stories change and it would have to be our job to not necessarily take stories like the Eleusinian Mysteries too seriously. I liken it to how some of the Japanese, when first laid eyes upon a train, decided to call it a fire-breathing dragon or whatever name they could come up with at the time. The choices of words are made by individual people. However, it doesn't seem to me to point, as evidence, that the Europeans were really religious in the forms that we are used to today with the Abrahamic religions.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The appearance of a god or goddess, as I see it, are representations or real events that have been distorted unintentionally and intentionally, depending on the tongue that spoke. So ceremonies that came forth out of the stories could have just been a social event in remembrance of these gods and goddesses, or significant leaders." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10886" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2659" RevisionGUID="1254ecbf-db03-4d18-94d4-aa7e39801f68" CreationDate="2017-06-09T17:15:05.627" UserId="2892" Comment="I corrected the link text and broke it up into paragraphs." Text="Winged &quot;fairies&quot; often feature in fairytale, and a good example would be the [Fairy Godmother](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairy_Godmother) from Cinderella. However, as, [this link](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairy_Godmother) points out, the term &quot;fairies &quot; does not necessarily refer to the winged ones but instead, it refers to all(or most) magical, sentient races found in various mythologies. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Examples of &quot;fairies&quot;, thus, can range from the Asian Yaoguai to the Norwich Alfar(Elves). Hence, **what is the actual name of these winged &quot;fairies&quot;?** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On a side note, what is the origin of such creatures? All I know that could be its origin are the Greek [Psyche](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cupid_and_Psyche)  and the Persian [Peri](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peri). " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10887" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2659" RevisionGUID="752c04e7-07a0-46c3-8822-031e5f4abfcf" CreationDate="2017-06-09T23:50:27.673" UserId="967" Comment="no mobile linx" Text="Winged &quot;fairies&quot; often feature in fairytale, and a good example would be the [Fairy Godmother](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairy_Godmother) from Cinderella. However, as, [this link](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairy_Godmother) points out, the term &quot;fairies &quot; does not necessarily refer to the winged ones but instead, it refers to all(or most) magical, sentient races found in various mythologies. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Examples of &quot;fairies&quot;, thus, can range from the Asian Yaoguai to the Norwich Alfar(Elves). Hence, **what is the actual name of these winged &quot;fairies&quot;?** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On a side note, what is the origin of such creatures? All I know that could be its origin are the Greek [Psyche](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cupid_and_Psyche)  and the Persian [Peri](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peri). " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10888" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2659" RevisionGUID="65a29476-4722-427f-b70c-2eb72b65c799" CreationDate="2017-06-10T04:01:26.867" UserDisplayName="user1385" Comment="added 81 characters in body" Text="Winged &quot;fairies&quot; often feature in fairytale, and a good example would be the [Fairy Godmother](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairy_Godmother) from Cinderella. However, as, [this link](  https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/795/did-the-word-fairies-originate-after-the-creation-of-stories-about-fairies) points out, the term &quot;fairies &quot; does not necessarily refer to the winged ones but instead, it refers to all(or most) magical, sentient races found in various mythologies. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Examples of &quot;fairies&quot;, thus, can range from the Asian Yaoguai to the Norwich Alfar(Elves). Hence, **what is the actual name of these winged &quot;fairies&quot;?** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On a side note, what is the origin of such creatures? All I know that could be its origin are the Greek [Psyche](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cupid_and_Psyche)  and the Persian [Peri](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peri). " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10889" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2660" RevisionGUID="e47a602e-da87-4567-8877-deee38de5c6b" CreationDate="2017-06-11T06:17:22.080" UserId="3885" Text="I've read up and searched on Google. I've also read stories on the matter but I noticed that every item around Brokkr's and Eitri's workshop seems named except the magical forge with which they built the items for the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does anyone know the name of the forge itself? Does it have a name?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10890" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2660" RevisionGUID="e47a602e-da87-4567-8877-deee38de5c6b" CreationDate="2017-06-11T06:17:22.080" UserId="3885" Text="What is the name of Brokkr's forge in Norse mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10891" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2660" RevisionGUID="e47a602e-da87-4567-8877-deee38de5c6b" CreationDate="2017-06-11T06:17:22.080" UserId="3885" Text="|norse|mythohistory|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10892" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2661" RevisionGUID="9ce139a8-9dd0-442d-a362-1475ad00623a" CreationDate="2017-06-11T09:59:03.153" UserId="3886" Text="A whole book has been written about the Cleverman, title 'Aboriginal Men Of High Degree' by A.P. ELkin. Elkin was a anthropologist who actually lived with the tribes to get the knowledge.The Cleverman has the power of clairvoyance, controlling the weather, curing illness, Hypnotism, the Strong eye, Skyworld visiting and so much more. HE has magical powers of invisibility,psychic displays and telepathy. THe life of the tribe revolved around this spiritual man.    Barbara from Australia" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10895" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2661" RevisionGUID="eeece8d6-8671-4342-af85-415898b59cce" CreationDate="2017-06-11T21:37:09.180" UserId="2892" Comment="Added links to the book and from the book to support this answer." Text="A whole book has been written about the Cleverman, title [*Aboriginal Men Of High Degree* by A.P. Elkin][1]. Elkin was a anthropologist who actually lived with the tribes to get the knowledge.  The Cleverman has the power of [weather control][2], [curing illness][3], [hypnotism][4], the [strong eye][5], visiting the [Sky-world][6] and so much more. He has magical powers of [invisibility][7], [psychic displays, clairvoyance and telepathy][8]. The life of the tribe revolved around this spiritual man.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/10841447?selectedversion=NBD10437750&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.com/books?id=QgEeC5V1fM0C&amp;pg=PA195&amp;dq=weather%20intitle:Aboriginal%20intitle:Men%20intitle:of%20intitle:High%20intitle:Degree&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwix-9Ss37bUAhUIziYKHWiNBx8Q6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&amp;q=weather%20intitle%3AAboriginal%20intitle%3AMen%20intitle%3Aof%20intitle%3AHigh%20intitle%3ADegree&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&amp;hl=en&amp;q=healing%20intitle%3AAboriginal%20intitle%3AMen%20intitle%3Aof%20intitle%3AHigh%20intitle%3ADegree&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://books.google.com/books?id=QgEeC5V1fM0C&amp;pg=PR25&amp;dq=hypnotism%20intitle:Aboriginal%20intitle:Men%20intitle:of%20intitle:High%20intitle:Degree&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwj_8s-f37bUAhXIPCYKHQJ_C2kQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&amp;q=hypnotism%20intitle%3AAboriginal%20intitle%3AMen%20intitle%3Aof%20intitle%3AHigh%20intitle%3ADegree&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://books.google.com/books?id=QgEeC5V1fM0C&amp;pg=PA50&amp;lpg=PA50&amp;dq=Strong%20eye%20aboriginal&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=JCeD7XjR1v&amp;sig=pI2AYcNhR5CrB-ujvFcsKv7cf6Y&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiruamz3LbUAhUm1oMKHWpmDFcQ6AEITjAG#v=onepage&amp;q=Strong%20eye%20aboriginal&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://books.google.com/books?id=QgEeC5V1fM0C&amp;pg=PA23&amp;dq=sky-world%20intitle:Aboriginal%20intitle:Men%20intitle:of%20intitle:High%20intitle:Degree&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiCxY6j3bbUAhXry4MKHTZ0CFYQ6AEIJDAA#v=onepage&amp;q=sky-world%20intitle%3AAboriginal%20intitle%3AMen%20intitle%3Aof%20intitle%3AHigh%20intitle%3ADegree&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://books.google.com/books?id=QgEeC5V1fM0C&amp;pg=PA176&amp;dq=invisible%20intitle:Aboriginal%20intitle:Men%20intitle:of%20intitle:High%20intitle:Degree&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwj9_Pvb3rbUAhVJYiYKHajwARsQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&amp;q=invisible%20intitle%3AAboriginal%20intitle%3AMen%20intitle%3Aof%20intitle%3AHigh%20intitle%3ADegree&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://books.google.com/books?id=QgEeC5V1fM0C&amp;pg=PA39&amp;dq=psychic%20training%20intitle:Aboriginal%20intitle:Men%20intitle:of%20intitle:High%20intitle:Degree&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiE0vW03rbUAhXH3SYKHWMsDWIQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&amp;q=psychic%20training%20intitle%3AAboriginal%20intitle%3AMen%20intitle%3Aof%20intitle%3AHigh%20intitle%3ADegree&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10896" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2662" RevisionGUID="5d0a4fe7-21e7-47e1-b3b8-270b370f5a5d" CreationDate="2017-06-11T22:08:14.613" UserId="2892" Text="In modern mythologies I'm noticing increasing reference to objects/substances that can tell or discern truth.  Most famously, the use of [sodium pentathol][1] as a trope in the spy genre in particular, and of course, [Wonder Woman][2]'s miraculous [golden][3] cord, newly rebranded as the [Lariat of Hestia][4].  Also of note is is the miraculous [alethiometer][5] from Phillip Pullman's heavily mythological [His Dark Materials][6].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Are there canonical precedents for this power of truth?**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pullman's alethiometer is clearly an oracle, but it is also a device, almost certainly modeled partly on the [antikythera mechanism][7]. Thus it may be understood as distinct from an oracle in that the possessor controls the device.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_thiopental#Truth_serum&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://screenrant.com/wonder-woman-rebirth-origin/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio#History&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2017/06/wonder-woman-heroine-of-the-post-truth-age/528780/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://hdm.wikia.com/wiki/Alethiometer&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/70959/his-dark-materials-mythology-and-symbolism-behind-d%C3%A6mon-forms&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10897" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2662" RevisionGUID="5d0a4fe7-21e7-47e1-b3b8-270b370f5a5d" CreationDate="2017-06-11T22:08:14.613" UserId="2892" Text="Objects, substances or entities that compel or discern truth in traditional mythological canons?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10898" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2662" RevisionGUID="5d0a4fe7-21e7-47e1-b3b8-270b370f5a5d" CreationDate="2017-06-11T22:08:14.613" UserId="2892" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10899" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2567" RevisionGUID="0418aa63-cc01-4f37-9b5b-1b52a0796119" CreationDate="2017-06-12T00:58:26.037" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="10900" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2663" RevisionGUID="1c0129df-48cf-4be3-acdd-6479db0b791e" CreationDate="2017-06-12T12:55:16.067" UserId="3888" Text="In this Hindu Mythology, Durga takes on an entire army of Demons, and  slays them all singlehandedly at the last moment, She takes on Mahishashur(Buffalo Demon)  and slays him as well   and gets the title &quot;Mahishashura Mardini&quot; so I was thinking is this kind of story common in other mythologies too for female goddesses ." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10901" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2663" RevisionGUID="1c0129df-48cf-4be3-acdd-6479db0b791e" CreationDate="2017-06-12T12:55:16.067" UserId="3888" Text="Are there any other mythology with female warriors like Durga from the Hindu Mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10902" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2663" RevisionGUID="1c0129df-48cf-4be3-acdd-6479db0b791e" CreationDate="2017-06-12T12:55:16.067" UserId="3888" Text="|myth-identification|comparative|mythohistory|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10903" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2664" RevisionGUID="1486d011-ddf5-4278-b5a0-0f1cb8a18ff9" CreationDate="2017-06-12T16:10:44.507" UserId="666" Text="**Unknown**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First, note that it's Brokk's brother who is clearly the master smith and does the actual smithing, while Brokk works the bellows. This brother is given as either Eitri or Sindri in different manuscripts of *Snorri's Edda*. The name Sindri also appears in *[Völuspa][1]*, where it is told he had a hall in Nithavellir (&quot;the Dark fields&quot;).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The forge in itself goes unnamed in the story (it's short, you can read it in a few minutes. See e.g. [here][2]). Furthermore, I can't recall any forge that are given a name in Norse mythology. It would seem that forges were not in themselves considered that important, and certainly not when compared to the skill of the smith, which is emphasized several times in several completely different tales.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe03.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Prose_Edda/Sk%C3%A1ldskaparm%C3%A1l#Loke.27s_Wager_With_the_Dwarves" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10904" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2665" RevisionGUID="cca6a74e-bd52-4b5d-aa02-a07b7f7ac7fd" CreationDate="2017-06-12T21:04:07.980" UserId="3307" Text="This quote, from Giuseppe Ricciotti's [*The Age of Martyrs: Christianity from Diocletian (284) to Constantine (337)*][1], appears to answer many of my questions simultaneously:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;27. …the whole of polytheistic teaching [of the Romans] was being transformed. Already some fifty years before Diocletian [*c.* 284], a kind of hierarchical confederation had unconsciously been made which collected the innumerable deities in one list and put them all under one supreme god. People were asking what all these gods and goddesses, so various and often so contradictory, did really add up to? Were they a great crowd of deities who ruled the universe, each one independent of the other? Or was there perhaps a *quid unum* which was common to all of them? If there was, then maybe they could all be reduced to such an all-embracing supreme principle? Such questions did not really lead to monotheism. Philosophers sought to fit all these deities into a system which was reasonable, compact, and harmonious. They were trying to build a solid pyramid with one apex only.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;…&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;28. There were many who received this solution gratefully, and added proof and example from nature itself. It was sufficient to raise the eyes to the sky and to consider the function of the sun in the material world. Did it not animate everything?— Was it not the great giver of light and life? Other founts of life and energy were to be found in nature, but these were all derived from the supreme source of the sun without which everything would fall into inertia, into darkness and death. These lesser sources were subordinate to the highest source and acted as so many mirrors reflecting more or less faithfully the greatest light and did not differ from it substantially.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The same thing was true, they said, in the world of the gods. There were many gods and goddesses, but they were all partial reflections of the highest god Sol and whatever could be predicated of them could in the ultimate analysis also be predicated of Sol.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The Emperor Aurelian had been an enthusiastic supporter of the cult of Sol. The son of a priestess of Sol, he had constructed in Rome, in 274, a sumptuous temple to *Deus Sol dominus imperii Romani*, uniting in this god the different sun gods of the Greeks and the Orientals (Helios, Baal) and placing them in the official Roman pantheon. He himself, as the emperor, was the representative of this god with the title *Deus et Dominus* and was shown on coins in the act of receiving a globe from Sol, to indicate his world-wide rule.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;This linking up of the Emperor with the sun-god— often identified or confused with Apollo— went on for a long time; even Diocletian, when he killed Aper, called the god Sol as a witness of his own innocence (par. 2). In doing so he did not deny the Roman gods headed by Jupiter. Jupiter seemed more suited to political affairs and Diocletian himself later chose the name of Jupiter (par. 5), whereas the judicial business of the condemnation of Aper was better suited to Sol, the source of all light. The two gods, in any case, were very much alike and the greatest star in nature corresponded with the greatest god in the Roman pantheon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://isidore.co/calibre/browse/book/6277" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10905" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2666" RevisionGUID="68710a9e-2f03-4dfd-940d-e361555ccd6d" CreationDate="2017-06-12T21:27:19.090" UserId="2682" Text="BRIEF&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles [Heracles] never engaged in combat against any Titan, neither before nor after his deification (his becoming a god). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Olympians participated in two cosmic conflicts: *Titanomakhia*, the &quot;Titans’ War&quot;; and *Gigantomakhia*, the &quot;Gigantes’ War.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Titans’ War is supposed to have taken place tens of thousands of years before Herakles’ birth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles was, however, brought to life specifically so that he could help the Olympians defeat the Gigantes (Giants), who turned out to be the deadliest threat to them since the era of the Titans. The Gigantes’ War, during which Herakles assisted the gods, thus broke out in the hero’s lifetime, while he was still a mortal, one human generation before the Trojan War. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**CHRONOLOGY**  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Here’s a basic timeline of some of the events mentioned here, using very loose dates of when they are supposed to have happened:&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 31,400 BC: **The Titans’ War**   &#xD;&#xA;31,300 BC: Birth of the God Hermes  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 31,200 BC: Imprisonment of the Titan Prometheus   &#xD;&#xA;1500 BC: Arabos, son of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hermes (&amp; ancestor of Herakles), becomes the first king of Arabia  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1300 BC: Birth of Herakles   &#xD;&#xA;1270 BC: Herakles releases Prometheus  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1260 BC: **The Gigantes’ War**   &#xD;&#xA;1250 BC: Death of Herakles   &#xD;&#xA;1220 BC:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Trojan War&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;The author of the [Greek Mythology Link (GML)](http://www.maicar.com/GML/MythicalChronology.html) also has a chronological outline of the major events of the mythic eras. The chart from that page is displayed below, at the end of this Answer.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;BREAKDOWN&#xD;&#xA;---------&#xD;&#xA;**The Immortality and Godhood of Herakles**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`But before he could die, Zeus has rescued him by raising his spirit to Olympos, making him an immortal god.`&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The way I have always understood the story, Herakles does genuinely die, for sure. It is only after he is dead that he is raised up to Mt Olympos [Olympus] and becomes a god. This is further illustrated by somewhat of a progression of thought in ancient literature and religious cults in general but also specifically in Greek myth. In the oldest surviving written records of the final state of powerful heroes like Herakles and Akhilleus [Achilles], these characters are said by poets like Homer to simply have ended up in the Underworld after they died, just like any other mortals. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Odyssey*, during his tour of the Underworld after the end of the Trojan War, Odysseus meets up with the *shades* (afterlife phantom remains, or “ghost”-versions) of, among others, both Herakles and Akhilleus, who are miserable shadows of the men they used to be. Herakles is wandering around the Underworld with his phantom bow-and-arrow set, hunting the shades of the beasts he had killed a lifetime ago. Meanwhile Akhilleus has a conversation with Odysseus in which he confesses that he would rather be the slave of a hireling in the upper world than rule over all those who have perished and descended into this dark realm. There doesn’t seem to be any indication at all here about deification or the promise of a glamorous post-mortem destination.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In later traditions, however, the story changes. Akhilleus is envisioned enjoying a blissful existence on the Islands of the Blessed, married to the Colchian princess witch Medeia, who herself appears here as an immortal minor goddess. It is in these times that Herakles is depicted as having attained immortality, and other mighty heroes and children of deities, after dying, go to live in balmy, idyllic locations like the Elysian Fields, except that Herakles rises much higher than these earthly paradises into the celestial home of the *theoi athanatoi* [deathless gods] themselves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are legends which seem partly designed to explain Herakles’ transition from a mere mortal shade in the land of the dead to a full-fledged divinity of Mt Olympos in his own right. There were different levels of deity in the various cults of Ancient Greece, in which there were divinities who were defined merely as heroes and others as *hemitheoi* (demigods, “half-gods”) in addition to those who were full-on *theoi*, “gods.” In one story, after Herakles’ suicide, his remains could not be found on his funeral pyre, so his nephew Iolaos became the first to sacrifice to the dead hero as a *hemitheos* (demigod). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Pausanias’ *Description of Greece*, Herakles had a son named Phaistos [Phaestus] who became king of the city of Sikyon. When Phaistos first arrived at Sikyon he found that the locals were making offerings to Herakles as a hero. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Phaistos then refused to do anything of the kind, but insisted on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sacrificing to him as to a *theos*. Even at the present day [`100s AD, over a thousand years after Herakles’ death`] the Sikyonians, after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; slaying a lamb and burning the thighs upon the altar, eat some of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; meat as part of a victim given to a *theos*, while the rest they offer&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as to a hero.   &#xD;&#xA;[2.10.1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`Zeus has insisted that Heracles shall become one of the gods who participate in the regular dinner feasts of the gods on Olympos with Zeus himself. As, however, there were previously twelve guests to those feasts, and thirteen was an unlucky number, Zeus has forced one of the other gods to give up their place in favor of Heracles.`&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as I am aware, there is no ancient myth in which this happens. The closest thing to such an occurrence is related by Diodorus Siculus in his *Bibliotheka Historika* 4.39.4, wherein he does indeed state that Zeus intended to make Herakles into one of the Twelve Great *Theoi Olympioi* [Olympian Gods] but that Herakles&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; would not accept this honour; for it was impossible for him thus to be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; enrolled unless one of the twelve gods were first cast out; hence in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his eyes it would be monstrous for him to accept an honour which&#xD;&#xA;&gt; involved depriving another god of his honour.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the original myths, none of the Twelve has ever been replaced by anyone else (with the exception of a modern interpretation of some ancient lists which appear to indicate that Hestia was replaced by Dionysos at some point&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Such a replacement, however, seems most unlikely since it would appear to be an important aspect of the Twelve's configuration that they are = 6 males + 6 females. If such a reading is correct then it would create an imbalance to replace the female Hestia with the male Dionysos and end up with 7 gods + 5 goddesses.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Antagonism Against Titans** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is some confusion that has occurred here in general about the timeline, the wars and Herakles’ participation in one of them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There actually are no ancient stories in which Herakles fights against anybody after his apotheosis (deification). All his adventurous encounters against men, gods, giants and monstrous beasts take place while he is still alive as a mortal man. One of the main features of his story is that he *earns* his immortality by fighting and defeating the monsters and colossal obstacles that he encounters as a mortal. His most dramatic tasks are predetermined for him by Zeus and Hera when he is still a baby. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;None of the deities that this hero ever combats are Titans. There are two different occasions on which there is an aggressive confrontation between Herakles and a Titan but both of these wind up pretty fast and quite peacefully. He once fires arrows upon Helios, the Sun, out of anger at the burning heat from this god’s light, but Helios simply laughs off the attack and even bestows a gift upon this powerful archer. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then Pherecydes tells us that when Herakles was crossing the cosmic earth-encircling Okeanos River, its god, the Titan Okeanos (who was an ancestor of Herakles), rose up in his waves to rock the hero’s vessel in an attempt to intimidate him. Herakles threatened to shoot the Titan with his arrows, whereupon Okeanos fearfully calmed his waters. There is also the story about Herakles tricking the Titan Atlas into holding up the edge of the sky again after having taken a break from this task.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Cosmic Wars**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By my reckoning, Titanomakhia would have occurred even before the birth of Hermes, the grandson of the Titan Atlas who became the last of the Twelve Olympians. (Hermes is yet another ancestor of Herakles.) Not very long after the end of Titanomakhia, Atlas’ brother Prometheus was imprisoned by Zeus on the Caucasus Mountains on the border of Europe and Asia. The Roman writer Hyginus provides us with the chronology for this in his *Fabulæ* and *Astronomica*. In both of these works Hyginus says that, according to the Greek tragedian Aeschylus, Prometheus was kept in chains for thirty thousand years before his bonds were broken by none other than Herakles.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Even in ancient times, however, the Titans and the Gigantes, and the two separate wars that they waged against the inhabitants of Mt Olympos, were sometimes confused with one another. The writer most notorious for mixing up his Greek myths and their characters is Hyginus. He lists Iapetos, the father of Atlas and Prometheus, as a Gigantos [Giant], even though Iapetos is certainly a Titan. He makes the same slipup with the Titans Koios and Astraios. This is further complicated by the participation of some primordial Gigantes in the Titans’ War. Most of these Giant soldiers seem to have sided with Kronos against Zeus in that particular contest. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One especially clear difference between the two conflicts is that the Titans were immortal (or at least almost all of them seem to have been) while the Gigantes were not. At the end of Titanomakhia the enemies of the gods had to be incarcerated in Tartaros, the deepest part of the Underworld. Gigantomakhia, on the other hand, only ended when almost all of the Gigantes were dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles and the Gigantes are, in a way, parallel characters. Both Herakles and the Giants are almost mightier than the gods. Gaia, the Earth, gives birth to the Gigantes in order for them to avenge the defeat of Kronos during Titanomakhia. This trips the gods out because there is a prophecy among them which declares that unless they employ the help of a mortal, they will not be able to defeat the Gigantes. Zeus takes this well in hand and contrives the means to create the strongest mortal hero of all, who, when he grows up, will be the suitably required ally against their enemy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus we have the story in which Zeus disguises himself as Amphitryon, the fiancé of Herakles’ mother Alkmene, in order to consort with her and sire this hero upon her. He stretches the night in which Herakles is conceived into the length of three nights, in order to produce this strongest and toughest of men. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meanwhile Gaia is scheming to obtain a special plant growing upon her surface. This plant is a drug with the power to make the Gigantes indestructible, even at mortal hands. So Zeus commands the heavenly lights, such as the Sun, Moon and Stars, not to shine while Gaia searches for this substance. Evidently she never finds it, because Herakles grows up, as do the Gigantes, and these huge enemies of the gods are after all slain by this mortal hero in collaboration with the Olympians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Precise Chronology of Gigantomakhia**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus specifies for us, in *Bibliotheka* 2.7.1-2, that Gigantomakhia broke out sometime after Herakles had completed his Twelve *Athloi*, “Labours” or “Tasks.” While sailing back to Greece from an expedition at Troy, Herakles and his army landed on the Aegean island of Kos, which was inhabited by the Meropes, and ruled by Herakles' cousin Eurypylos (a son of Poseidon). Mistaking Herakles and his men for pirates, Eurypylos and his subjects attacked them. This ended badly for the Meropes, whose king and princes were all killed while their island was laid waste. At this point the goddess Athena came to fetch Herakles from there to take him to Phlegra, in Thrace, where the Olympians were at war against the Gigantes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After Herakles had dispensed with the Gigantes, he moved on to attack Augeias, King of the Epeians of Elis, who had broken a deal with him during the performance of one of his Twelve *Athloi*. Here we incidentally get a display of Herakles’ mortality and the fact that he is not all-powerful: he suffers a dramatic defeat at the hands of Augeias’ army generals, the twin brothers Eurytos and Kteatos, who are sometimes portrayed as monstrous or gigantic. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus goes on to say that these brothers were the strongest men alive at the time. It could be that Herakles was, during this encounter, exhausted from waging cosmic battle against the Gigantes. Additionally, the *Bibliotheka* implies that he lost this fight because he fell sick during the attack on Elis. It may nonetheless prove that these twins were stronger than Herakles, since he was only able to kill them by treacherously waylaying them during a sacred ceasefire sometime after they had defeated him (fairly uncharacteristic behaviour for him). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Carlos Parada’s GML delineation of the timeline][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Carlos Parada’s GML delineation of the timeline  &#xD;&#xA;See also [Marc Carlson’s rendition](http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/history/clam.html), as well as a [third alternative, from the Argyrou website](http://www.argyrou.net/homepage/Chronology.htm).&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/l2Unu.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10906" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2663" RevisionGUID="7e80b2f6-8044-4f82-a599-f36f22ff12d0" CreationDate="2017-06-12T22:50:45.483" UserId="292" Comment="fixed grammar and readabiiity" Text="In Hindu Mythology, Durga takes on an entire army of Demons, and  slays them all singlehandedly at the last moment. She also takes on Mahishashur (Buffalo Demon)  and slays him as well, earning her the title &quot;Mahishashura Mardini&quot;. I was wondering if other mythologies have similiar stories about a warrior goddess?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10907" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2662" RevisionGUID="a04730d8-75d8-4e34-a9fd-318ac3fe54c5" CreationDate="2017-06-12T22:53:35.300" UserId="2892" Comment="added 26 characters in body" Text="In modern mythologies I'm noticing increasing reference to objects/substances that can tell or discern truth.  Most famously, the use of [sodium pentathol][1] as a trope in the spy genre in particular, and of course, [Wonder Woman][2]'s miraculous golden cord, newly rebranded as the [Lariat of Hestia][3].  The [alethiometer][4] (aka the [golden][5] compass) from Phillip Pullman's heavily mythological [His Dark Materials][6] is a more recent example.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Are there canonical precedents for this power of truth?**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pullman's alethiometer is clearly an oracle, but it is also a device, almost certainly modeled partly on the [antikythera mechanism][7], so it can be understood as distinct from a oracular entity in that the possessor controls the device.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_thiopental#Truth_serum&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://screenrant.com/wonder-woman-rebirth-origin/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2017/06/wonder-woman-heroine-of-the-post-truth-age/528780/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://hdm.wikia.com/wiki/Alethiometer&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio#History&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/70959/his-dark-materials-mythology-and-symbolism-behind-d%C3%A6mon-forms&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10908" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2667" RevisionGUID="a67f7634-c6fe-4ee7-aa05-279042285d55" CreationDate="2017-06-12T22:57:04.297" UserId="292" Text="Also, Norse myth has these gaps. Thor's goats have names, while Freyja's cats don't (that we know of). The forge may or may not have had a name in the myths, but @andejons is right to say that it was the smiths that were the focus of the story. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10910" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2669" RevisionGUID="6ab44061-e045-45db-bd8d-eba948a23548" CreationDate="2017-06-13T02:27:51.373" UserId="1317" Text="***[Ma'at](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maat)*** is the ancient Egyptian goddess of Truth, and is represented by a feather in the ancient [Egyptian Book of the Dead](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_the_Dead). The feather determines the truthfulness of the deceased.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The deceased is brought before [Osiris](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris) and recites ritual declarations of his purity. But judgement is not rendered until the deceased's heart is weighed against the feather of Ma'at. If the heart and feather balance, then the deceased has been truthful and goes on to eternal life. If not, the Devourer [Ammit](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammit) takes him. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Sorry there's no embedded image; I can't get SE to upload jpgs and that's all I can find. [This jpeg from Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BD_Hunefer.jpg) shows the deceased (Hunefer)'s heart (on the left side of the scale)) being weighed against the feather (on the right side)) with Osiris presiding and [Anubis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anubis) and Ammit looking on. On the right, Horus presents Hunefer (who has passed the test) to Osiris.*" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10911" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2640" RevisionGUID="45950064-7ab4-407a-a4c7-b129876b8db7" CreationDate="2017-06-13T03:33:49.783" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; improved formatting" Text="If Zeus and his siblings were able to hold Chronos down and chop him into pieces, effectively &quot;killing&quot; him, could there be a way for the gods or goddesses to die as well?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or in other words, can the gods be destroyed so that they are reduced to a state of formlessness from which they are unable to return? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And since the Titans were actually stronger than the gods, would it take as much power/people to kill them, or would it be easier for them to be killed? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In similarity to the version of the story of Chronos in which he is imprisoned, could any of the gods or goddesses be captured and/or imprisoned? What would be able to hold them? And again, would it be easier to capture the gods than it was to do the same thing to Chronos or the Titans?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10915" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2671" RevisionGUID="33ad1d5c-b9ee-4a2c-aed2-7173159763be" CreationDate="2017-06-13T16:18:22.410" UserId="229" Text="Yes. A comment already mentioned Norse Freya, Celtic Morrigan, and Greek Artemis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My personal favorite that wasn't mentioned is the West African [Oya][1] (aka: Oiá, Yansá or Iansá), who I see associated with all kinds of things depending on the source, but storms and destruction seem to be the most common. She's said to be invincible. I've seen her depicted with a whip and with a short sword (or machete).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Latvians had Kara Mate, the Berbers Ifri, and the Chinese [Jiutian Xuannü][2]. The Hindus have several, most notably [Kali][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is just a sample, not the entire list. Here's a website that [tries to do that][4], but I highly suspect its incomplete (compare with [this site][5]). Most likely it would be easier to list which mythos had *no* warrior goddess than which ones did.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oya&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiutian_Xuann%C3%BC&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.goddess-guide.com/warrior-goddesses.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_deities" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10916" PostHistoryTypeId="12" PostId="2671" RevisionGUID="e49572a2-36cb-4071-a98e-fcfb250d4b62" CreationDate="2017-06-13T16:21:13.690" UserId="229" Comment="via Vote" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:229,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;T.E.D.&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="10917" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2034" RevisionGUID="05b24e61-857e-45b0-83b7-48b2aa715ec2" CreationDate="2017-06-13T19:51:34.167" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="10918" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2662" RevisionGUID="b6950b77-4a19-4918-b23b-ecf4a2554d9a" CreationDate="2017-06-13T20:45:23.010" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 16 characters in body" Text="In modern mythologies I'm noticing increasing reference to objects/substances that can tell or discern truth.  Most famously, the use of [truth serum][1] as a trope in the spy genre in particular, and [Wonder Woman][2]'s miraculous golden cord, newly rebranded as the [Lariat of Hestia][3].  The [alethiometer][4] (aka the [golden][5] compass) from Phillip Pullman's heavily mythological [His Dark Materials][6] is a more recent example.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Are there canonical precedents for this power of truth?**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pullman's alethiometer is clearly an oracle, but it is also a device, almost certainly modeled partly on the [antikythera mechanism][7], so it can be understood as distinct from a oracular entity in that the possessor controls the device.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_thiopental#Truth_serum&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://screenrant.com/wonder-woman-rebirth-origin/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2017/06/wonder-woman-heroine-of-the-post-truth-age/528780/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://hdm.wikia.com/wiki/Alethiometer&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio#History&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/70959/his-dark-materials-mythology-and-symbolism-behind-d%C3%A6mon-forms&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10919" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2594" RevisionGUID="4395f1bd-3021-44da-84be-e25c8e2dc09a" CreationDate="2017-06-14T16:15:30.323" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="10920" PostHistoryTypeId="36" PostId="2672" RevisionGUID="faa9fccf-807f-4664-8045-8f1b658ceb27" CreationDate="2017-06-14T16:48:56.800" UserId="-1" Comment="from https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/38075/how-far-does-the-classical-model-remain-a-template-for-heroism-in-the-modern-wor" />
  <row Id="10921" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2672" RevisionGUID="89895556-d004-475d-8e76-1d8beb7e7078" CreationDate="2017-05-16T09:40:48.637" UserId="3779" Text="Pretty much the question. I'm doing an essay right now on the social constructions of heroes, yet I don't really know how to go about this. My basic outline (so far) is this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Introduction to what a hero is; what makes the classical model different from the modern day?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Some examples of both; perhaps use Greek/Roman examples and compare them to modern era examples?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Argue that the classical model still exists for the most part in the modern era (classical heroes are mainly military heroes); figures such as Napoleon still have a huge reputation for leading armies to victory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Exceptions to this rule are mainly due to evolving social values and technology, leading to new types of heroes such as the heroine becoming an archetype, as well as 'niche' heroes such as heroes of exploration (E.G. Yuri Gagarin?)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any thoughts would be appreciated, I'm really stumped on this and looking for any suggestions/quotes/sources! Thank you all in advance :)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10922" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2672" RevisionGUID="89895556-d004-475d-8e76-1d8beb7e7078" CreationDate="2017-05-16T09:40:48.637" UserId="3779" Text="How far does the classical model remain a template for heroism in the modern world?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10923" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2672" RevisionGUID="89895556-d004-475d-8e76-1d8beb7e7078" CreationDate="2017-05-16T09:40:48.637" UserId="3779" Text="|untagged|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10924" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2673" RevisionGUID="5fb18fec-afda-4f7e-a4e6-2845ac5151ce" CreationDate="2017-06-14T19:22:29.537" UserId="2892" Text="In terms of stature, role and primal nature, the only deities from the Greek Pantheon I can think of are [the Furies][1].  They are older than the Olympians, and relentlessly pursue evildoers.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of the concrete stories similar to Durga, that of the hero slaying monsters or demons in the role of benefactor to the gods or humans, I am hard pressed to find specific examples.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Egyptian [Sekhmet][2] suggests the idea of a female destroyer is not singular, and so the lack of detailed stories may be due to other factors.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Tiamat][3] may also fit into this category in the sense of creation/destruction being connected and which is the fundamental nature of Durga.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erinyes&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sekhmet&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10925" PostHistoryTypeId="13" PostId="2671" RevisionGUID="adcbbd5e-31de-4a84-a4b5-850bf0836994" CreationDate="2017-06-14T19:29:19.627" UserId="229" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:229,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;T.E.D.&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="10926" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2673" RevisionGUID="ed553989-29bb-4f38-8fd0-9c6f5935efda" CreationDate="2017-06-14T19:40:08.087" UserId="2892" Comment="added 54 characters in body" Text="In terms of stature, role and primal nature, the only deities from the Greek Pantheon I can think of are &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **[the Furies][1]**.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They are older than the Olympians, and relentlessly pursue evildoers.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of the concrete stories similar to Durga, that of the hero slaying monsters or demons in the role of benefactor to the gods or humans, I am hard pressed to find specific examples.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **[Sekhmet][2]**, the Egyptian goddess &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;suggests the idea of a female destroyer/creator is not singular, and so the lack of detailed stories may be due to other factors.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **[Tiamat][3]** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;may also fit into this category in the sense of creation/destruction being connected and which is the fundamental nature of Durga.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erinyes&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sekhmet&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10927" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2674" RevisionGUID="6193954b-eed1-42e3-9637-9b72daccd6b2" CreationDate="2017-06-14T20:09:56.320" UserId="229" Text="There has been a fair bit of work put into [Proto-Indo-European religion construction][1]. Some of it is of course arguable, but a lot of it is well-attested enough, and unique enough to Indo-Europeans, that the reconstructions are most likely reasonably accurate.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The existence of any universal common bits, with relatively common names, shows that the people of all the child cultures cared enough about it to teach it to their children over the intervening hundreds of generations.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would add that the original homeland of the PIE people was likely the Eurasian Steppe. If you've ever spent some time at night on the open prairie, the sky really does not seem that far away at all. Certainly lighting is far more than a metaphysical threat there too, as it likes to strike the tallest thing around, and in terrain without trees, that's often going to be a human.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I suppose one argument one could make against their religious belief is that there seems to be no common word or concept for a priesthood (strongly implying they didn't have any in the modern sense).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would caution you against thinking that just because gods aren't seen as literal physical beings in a belief system, adherents to that system aren't religious. Many devout modern Christians think exactly that way about their God (He isn't in any one place, but rather in everything.) I've also made a study of the ancestral Osage (really Siouxan) religion, and they essentially viewed their Great Sprit ([Wakonda][2]) as a concept much more like [The Force][3] than like a Judeo-Christian God. Yet a visitor from a neighboring tribe once commented on how religious the Osages were, spending an amount of time every day bowing and praying that would put a modern devout Muslim to shame.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_religion&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.native-languages.org/morelegends/wakonda.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Force" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10928" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2674" RevisionGUID="6a67167b-f9d2-4f28-a55f-cc7deb5f04e1" CreationDate="2017-06-14T20:17:24.417" UserId="229" Comment="added 352 characters in body" Text="There has been a fair bit of work put into [Proto-Indo-European religion construction][1]. Some of it is of course arguable, but a lot of it is well-attested enough, and unique enough to Indo-Europeans, that the reconstructions are most likely reasonably accurate.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The existence of any universal common bits, with relatively common names, shows that the people of all the child cultures cared enough about it to teach it to their children over the intervening hundreds of generations.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would add that the original homeland of the PIE people was likely the Eurasian Steppe. If you've ever spent some time at night on the open prairie, the sky really does not seem that far away at all. Certainly lighting is far more than a metaphysical threat there too, as it likes to strike the tallest thing around, and in terrain without trees, that's often going to be a human.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I suppose one argument one could make against their religious belief is that there seems to be no common word or concept for a priesthood (strongly implying they didn't have any in the modern sense).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**I would caution you against thinking that just because gods aren't seen as literal physical beings in a belief system, adherents to that system aren't religious**. Many devout modern Christians think exactly that way about their God (He isn't in any one place, but rather in everything.) I've also made a study of the ancestral Osage (really Siouxan) religion, and they essentially viewed their Great Sprit ([Wakonda][2]&lt;sup&gt;*&lt;/sup&gt;) as a concept much more like [The Force][3] than like a Judeo-Christian God. Yet a visitor from a neighboring tribe once commented on how religious the Osages were, spending an amount of time every day bowing and praying that would put a modern devout Muslim to shame.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;* - Important clarification. Most modern Osages I know consider themselves Christian, and if they speak the language consider Wakonda interchangeable with the Christian God. I heard an Osage elder doing this in a native-language prayer just yesterday. When I use past-tense here, I'm referring to what little we know about their pre-conversion religion.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_religion&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.native-languages.org/morelegends/wakonda.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Force" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10929" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2666" RevisionGUID="43ce4faf-f60e-454c-b0d2-26130b9c085f" CreationDate="2017-06-14T23:04:10.240" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected some info" Text="BRIEF&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles [Heracles] never engaged in combat against any Titan, neither before nor after his deification (his becoming a god). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Olympians participated in two cosmic conflicts: *Titanomakhia*, the &quot;Titans’ War&quot;; and *Gigantomakhia*, the &quot;Gigantes’ War.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Titans’ War is supposed to have taken place tens of thousands of years before Herakles’ birth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles was, however, brought to life specifically so that he could help the Olympians defeat the Gigantes (Giants), who turned out to be the deadliest threat to them since the era of the Titans. The Gigantes’ War, during which Herakles assisted the gods, thus broke out in the hero’s lifetime, while he was still a mortal, one human generation before the Trojan War. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**CHRONOLOGY**  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Here’s a basic timeline of some of the events mentioned here, using very loose dates of when they are supposed to have happened:&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 31,400 BC: **The Titans’ War**   &#xD;&#xA;31,300 BC: Birth of the God Hermes  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 31,200 BC: Imprisonment of the Titan Prometheus   &#xD;&#xA;1500 BC: Arabos, son of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hermes (&amp; ancestor of Herakles), becomes the first king of Arabia  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1300 BC: Birth of Herakles   &#xD;&#xA;1270 BC: Herakles releases Prometheus  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1260 BC: **The Gigantes’ War**   &#xD;&#xA;1250 BC: Death of Herakles   &#xD;&#xA;1220 BC:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Trojan War&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;The author of the [Greek Mythology Link (GML)](http://www.maicar.com/GML/MythicalChronology.html) also has a chronological outline of the major events of the mythic eras. The chart from that page is displayed below, at the end of this Answer.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;BREAKDOWN&#xD;&#xA;---------&#xD;&#xA;**The Immortality and Godhood of Herakles**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`But before he could die, Zeus has rescued him by raising his spirit to Olympos, making him an immortal god.`&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The way I have always understood the story, Herakles does genuinely die, for sure. It is only after he is dead that he is raised up to Mt Olympos [Olympus] and becomes a god. This is further illustrated by somewhat of a progression of thought in ancient literature and religious cults in general but also specifically in Greek myth. In the oldest surviving written records of the final state of powerful heroes like Herakles and Akhilleus [Achilles], these characters are said by poets like Homer to simply have ended up in the Underworld after they died, just like any other mortals. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Odyssey*, during his tour of the Underworld after the end of the Trojan War, Odysseus meets up with the *shades* (afterlife phantom remains, or “ghost”-versions) of, among others, both Herakles and Akhilleus, who are miserable shadows of the men they used to be. Herakles is wandering around the Underworld with his phantom bow-and-arrow set, hunting the shades of the beasts he had killed a lifetime ago. Meanwhile Akhilleus has a conversation with Odysseus in which he confesses that he would rather be the slave of a hireling in the upper world than rule over all those who have perished and descended into this dark realm. There doesn’t seem to be any indication at all here about deification or the promise of a glamorous post-mortem destination.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In later traditions, however, the story changes. Akhilleus is envisioned enjoying a blissful existence on the Islands of the Blessed, married to the Colchian princess witch Medeia, who herself appears here as an immortal minor goddess. It is in these times that Herakles is depicted as having attained immortality, and other mighty heroes and children of deities, after dying, go to live in balmy, idyllic locations like the Elysian Fields, except that Herakles rises much higher than these earthly paradises into the celestial home of the *theoi athanatoi* [deathless gods] themselves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are legends which seem partly designed to explain Herakles’ transition from a mere mortal shade in the land of the dead to a full-fledged divinity of Mt Olympos in his own right. There were different levels of deity in the various cults of Ancient Greece, in which there were divinities who were defined merely as heroes and others as *hemitheoi* (demigods, “half-gods”) in addition to those who were full-on *theoi*, “gods.” In one story, after Herakles’ suicide, his remains could not be found on his funeral pyre, so his nephew Iolaos became the first to sacrifice to the dead hero as a *hemitheos* (demigod). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Pausanias’ *Description of Greece*, Herakles had a son named Phaistos [Phaestus] who became king of the city of Sikyon. When Phaistos first arrived at Sikyon he found that the locals were making offerings to Herakles as a hero. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Phaistos then refused to do anything of the kind, but insisted on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sacrificing to him as to a *theos*. Even at the present day [`100s AD, over a thousand years after Herakles’ death`] the Sikyonians, after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; slaying a lamb and burning the thighs upon the altar, eat some of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; meat as part of a victim given to a *theos*, while the rest they offer&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as to a hero.   &#xD;&#xA;[2.10.1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Antagonism Against Titans** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`Drinking ambrosia in the company of Zeus couldn't entirely satisfy Heracles, so he continued his heroic deeds as an immortal god. Already experienced in defeating immortal beasts, he again helps the Olympians by fighting against the monstrous children the primordial gods have spawned. As a physically strong god, he was a decisive factor in ending the rule of the Titans and ensuring that the Olympian gods would rule the world.`&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`These stories seem contradictory.`&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is some confusion that has occurred here in general about the timeline, the wars and Herakles’ participation in one of them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There actually are no ancient stories in which Herakles fights against anybody after his apotheosis (deification). All his adventurous encounters against men, gods, giants and monstrous beasts take place while he is still alive as a mortal man. One of the main features of his story is that he *earns* his immortality by fighting and defeating the monsters and colossal obstacles that he encounters as a mortal. His most dramatic tasks are predetermined for him by Zeus and Hera when he is still a baby. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;None of the deities that this hero ever combats are Titans. There are two different occasions on which there is an aggressive confrontation between Herakles and a Titan but both of these wind up pretty fast and quite peacefully. He once fires arrows upon Helios, the Sun, out of anger at the burning heat from this god’s light, but Helios simply laughs off the attack and even bestows a gift upon this powerful archer. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then Pherecydes tells us that when Herakles was crossing the cosmic earth-encircling Okeanos River, its god, the Titan Okeanos (who was an ancestor of Herakles), rose up in his waves to rock the hero’s vessel in an attempt to intimidate him. Herakles threatened to shoot the Titan with his arrows, whereupon Okeanos fearfully calmed his waters. There is also the story about Herakles tricking the Titan Atlas into holding up the edge of the sky again after having taken a break from this task.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Cosmic Wars**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By my reckoning, Titanomakhia would have occurred even before the birth of Hermes, the grandson of the Titan Atlas who became the last of the Twelve Olympians. (Hermes is yet another ancestor of Herakles.) Not very long after the end of Titanomakhia, Atlas’ brother Prometheus was imprisoned by Zeus on the Caucasus Mountains on the border of Europe and Asia. The Roman writer Hyginus provides us with the chronology for this in his *Fabulæ* and *Astronomica*. In both of these works Hyginus says that, according to the Greek tragedian Aeschylus, Prometheus was kept in chains for thirty thousand years before his bonds were broken by none other than Herakles.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Even in ancient times, however, the Titans and the Gigantes, and the two separate wars that they waged against the inhabitants of Mt Olympos, were sometimes confused with one another. The writer most notorious for mixing up his Greek myths and their characters is Hyginus. He lists Iapetos, the father of Atlas and Prometheus, as a Gigantos [Giant], even though Iapetos is certainly a Titan. He makes the same slipup with the Titans Koios and Astraios. This is further complicated by the participation of some primordial Gigantes in the Titans’ War. Most of these Giant soldiers seem to have sided with Kronos against Zeus in that particular contest. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One especially clear difference between the two conflicts is that the Titans were immortal (or at least almost all of them seem to have been) while the Gigantes were not. At the end of Titanomakhia the enemies of the gods had to be incarcerated in Tartaros, the deepest part of the Underworld. Gigantomakhia, on the other hand, only ended when almost all of the Gigantes were dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles and the Gigantes are, in a way, parallel characters. Both Herakles and the Giants are almost mightier than the gods. Gaia, the Earth, gives birth to the Gigantes in order for them to avenge the defeat of Kronos during Titanomakhia. This trips the gods out because there is a prophecy among them which declares that unless they employ the help of a mortal, they will not be able to defeat the Gigantes. Zeus takes this well in hand and contrives the means to create the strongest mortal hero of all, who, when he grows up, will be the suitably required ally against their enemy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus we have the story in which Zeus disguises himself as Amphitryon, the fiancé of Herakles’ mother Alkmene, in order to consort with her and sire this hero upon her. He stretches the night in which Herakles is conceived into the length of three nights, in order to produce this strongest and toughest of men. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meanwhile Gaia is scheming to obtain a special plant growing upon her surface. This plant is a drug with the power to make the Gigantes indestructible, even at mortal hands. So Zeus commands the heavenly lights, such as the Sun, Moon and Stars, not to shine while Gaia searches for this substance. Evidently she never finds it, because Herakles grows up, as do the Gigantes, and these huge enemies of the gods are after all slain by this mortal hero in collaboration with the Olympians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Precise Chronology of Gigantomakhia**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus specifies for us, in *Bibliotheka* 2.7.1-2, that Gigantomakhia broke out sometime after Herakles had completed his Twelve *Athloi*, “Labours” or “Tasks.” While sailing back to Greece from an expedition at Troy, Herakles and his army landed on the Aegean island of Kos, which was inhabited by the Meropes, and ruled by Herakles' cousin Eurypylos (a son of Poseidon). Mistaking Herakles and his men for pirates, Eurypylos and his subjects attacked them. This ended badly for the Meropes, whose king and princes were all killed while their island was laid waste. At this point the goddess Athena came to fetch Herakles from there to take him to Phlegra, in Thrace, where the Olympians were at war against the Gigantes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After Herakles had dispensed with the Gigantes, he moved on to attack Augeias, King of the Epeians of Elis, who had broken a deal with him during the performance of one of his Twelve *Athloi*. Here we incidentally get a display of Herakles’ mortality and the fact that he is not all-powerful: he suffers a dramatic defeat at the hands of Augeias’ army generals, the twin brothers Eurytos and Kteatos, who are sometimes portrayed as monstrous or gigantic. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus goes on to say that these brothers were the strongest men alive at the time. It could be that Herakles was, during this encounter, exhausted from waging cosmic battle against the Gigantes. Additionally, the *Bibliotheka* implies that he lost this fight because he fell sick during the attack on Elis. It may nonetheless prove that these twins were stronger than Herakles, since he was only able to kill them by treacherously waylaying them during a sacred ceasefire sometime after they had defeated him (fairly uncharacteristic behaviour for him). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Carlos Parada’s GML delineation of the timeline][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Carlos Parada’s GML delineation of the timeline  &#xD;&#xA;See also [Marc Carlson’s rendition](http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/history/clam.html), as well as a [third alternative, from the Argyrou website](http://www.argyrou.net/homepage/Chronology.htm).&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/l2Unu.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10930" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2666" RevisionGUID="4185bec0-797c-48d6-84df-281cd6df5a33" CreationDate="2017-06-15T06:46:49.613" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected some info" Text="BRIEF&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles [Heracles] never engaged in combat against any Titan, neither before nor after his deification (his becoming a god). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Olympians participated in two cosmic conflicts: *Titanomakhia*, the &quot;Titans’ War&quot;; and *Gigantomakhia*, the &quot;Gigantes’ War.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Titans’ War is supposed to have taken place tens of thousands of years before Herakles’ birth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles was, however, brought to life specifically so that he could help the Olympians defeat the Gigantes (Giants), who turned out to be the deadliest threat to them since the era of the Titans. The Gigantes’ War, during which Herakles assisted the gods, thus broke out in the hero’s lifetime, while he was still a mortal, one human generation before the Trojan War. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**CHRONOLOGY**  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Here’s a basic timeline of some of the events mentioned here, using very loose dates of when they are supposed to have happened:&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 31,400 BC: **The Titans’ War**   &#xD;&#xA;31,300 BC: Birth of the God Hermes  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 31,200 BC: Imprisonment of the Titan Prometheus   &#xD;&#xA;1500 BC: Arabos, son of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hermes (&amp; ancestor of Herakles), becomes the first king of Arabia  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1300 BC: Birth of Herakles   &#xD;&#xA;1270 BC: Herakles releases Prometheus  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1260 BC: **The Gigantes’ War**   &#xD;&#xA;1250 BC: Death of Herakles   &#xD;&#xA;1220 BC:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Trojan War&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;The author of the [Greek Mythology Link (GML)](http://www.maicar.com/GML/MythicalChronology.html) also has a chronological outline of the major events of the mythic eras. The chart from that page is displayed below, at the end of this Answer.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;BREAKDOWN&#xD;&#xA;---------&#xD;&#xA;**The Immortality and Godhood of Herakles**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`But before he could die, Zeus has rescued him by raising his spirit to Olympos, making him an immortal god.`&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The way I have always understood the story, Herakles does genuinely die, for sure. It is only after he is dead that he is raised up to Mt Olympos [Olympus] and becomes a god. This is further illustrated by somewhat of a progression of thought in ancient literature and religious cults in general but also specifically in Greek myth. In the oldest surviving written records of the final state of powerful heroes like Herakles and Akhilleus [Achilles], these characters are said by poets like Homer to simply have ended up in the Underworld after they died, just like any other mortals. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Odyssey*, during his tour of the Underworld after the end of the Trojan War, Odysseus meets up with the *shades* (afterlife phantom remains, or “ghost”-versions) of, among others, both Herakles and Akhilleus, who are miserable shadows of the men they used to be. Herakles is wandering around the Underworld with his phantom bow-and-arrow set, hunting the shades of the beasts he had killed a lifetime ago. Meanwhile Akhilleus has a conversation with Odysseus in which he confesses that he would rather be the slave of a hireling in the upper world than rule over all those who have perished and descended into this dark realm. There doesn’t seem to be any indication at all here about deification or the promise of a glamorous post-mortem destination.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In later traditions, however, the story changes. Akhilleus is envisioned enjoying a blissful existence on the Islands of the Blessed, married to the Colchian princess witch Medeia, who herself appears here as an immortal minor goddess. It is in these times that Herakles is depicted as having attained immortality, and other mighty heroes and children of deities, after dying, go to live in balmy, idyllic locations like the Elysian Fields, except that Herakles rises much higher than these earthly paradises into the celestial home of the *theoi athanatoi* [deathless gods] themselves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are legends which seem partly designed to explain Herakles’ transition from a mere mortal shade in the land of the dead to a full-fledged divinity of Mt Olympos in his own right. There were different levels of deity in the various cults of Ancient Greece, in which there were divinities who were defined merely as heroes and others as *hemitheoi* (demigods, “half-gods”) in addition to those who were full-on *theoi*, “gods.” In one story, after Herakles’ suicide, his remains could not be found on his funeral pyre, so his nephew Iolaos became the first to sacrifice to the dead hero as a *hemitheos* (demigod). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Pausanias’ *Description of Greece*, Herakles had a son named Phaistos [Phaestus] who became king of the city of Sikyon. When Phaistos first arrived at Sikyon he found that the locals were making offerings to Herakles as a hero. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Phaistos then refused to do anything of the kind, but insisted on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sacrificing to him as to a *theos*. Even at the present day [`100s AD, over a thousand years after Herakles’ death`] the Sikyonians, after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; slaying a lamb and burning the thighs upon the altar, eat some of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; meat as part of a victim given to a *theos*, while the rest they offer&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as to a hero.   &#xD;&#xA;[2.10.1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Antagonism Against Titans** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`Drinking ambrosia in the company of Zeus couldn't entirely satisfy Heracles, so he continued his heroic deeds as an immortal god. Already experienced in defeating immortal beasts, he again helps the Olympians by fighting against the monstrous children the primordial gods have spawned. As a physically strong god, he was a decisive factor in ending the rule of the Titans and ensuring that the Olympian gods would rule the world.`&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`These stories seem contradictory.`&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is some confusion that has occurred here in general about the timeline, the wars and Herakles’ participation in one of them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There actually are no ancient stories in which Herakles fights against anybody after his apotheosis (deification), apart from a mural from Athens which depicts him, as an immortal god, together with the goddess Athena and a resurrected Theseus, fighting together with the Greeks against the Persians at the Battle of Marathon in 490 BC. All of Herakles' other adventurous encounters against men, gods, giants and monstrous beasts take place while he is still alive as a mortal man. One of the main features of his story is that he *earns* his immortality by fighting and defeating the monsters and colossal obstacles that he encounters as a mortal. His most dramatic tasks are predetermined for him by Zeus and Hera when he is still a baby. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;None of the deities that this hero ever combats are Titans. There are two different occasions on which there is an aggressive confrontation between Herakles and a Titan but both of these wind up pretty fast and quite peacefully. He once fires arrows upon Helios, the Sun, out of anger at the burning heat from this god’s light, but Helios simply laughs off the attack and even bestows a gift upon this powerful archer. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then Pherecydes tells us that when Herakles was crossing the cosmic earth-encircling Okeanos River, its god, the Titan Okeanos (who was an ancestor of Herakles), rose up in his waves to rock the hero’s vessel in an attempt to intimidate him. Herakles threatened to shoot the Titan with his arrows, whereupon Okeanos fearfully calmed his waters. There is also the story about Herakles tricking the Titan Atlas into holding up the edge of the sky again after having taken a break from this task.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Cosmic Wars**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By my reckoning, Titanomakhia would have occurred even before the birth of Hermes, the grandson of the Titan Atlas who became the last of the Twelve Olympians. (Hermes is yet another ancestor of Herakles.) Not very long after the end of Titanomakhia, Atlas’ brother Prometheus was imprisoned by Zeus on the Caucasus Mountains on the border of Europe and Asia. The Roman writer Hyginus provides us with the chronology for this in his *Fabulæ* and *Astronomica*. In both of these works Hyginus says that, according to the Greek tragedian Aeschylus, Prometheus was kept in chains for thirty thousand years before his bonds were broken by none other than Herakles.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Even in ancient times, however, the Titans and the Gigantes, and the two separate wars that they waged against the inhabitants of Mt Olympos, were sometimes confused with one another. The writer most notorious for mixing up his Greek myths and their characters is Hyginus. He lists Iapetos, the father of Atlas and Prometheus, as a Gigantos [Giant], even though Iapetos is certainly a Titan. He makes the same slipup with the Titans Koios and Astraios. This is further complicated by the participation of some primordial Gigantes in the Titans’ War. Most of these Giant soldiers seem to have sided with Kronos against Zeus in that particular contest. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One especially clear difference between the two conflicts is that the Titans were immortal (or at least almost all of them seem to have been) while the Gigantes were not. At the end of Titanomakhia the enemies of the gods had to be incarcerated in Tartaros, the deepest part of the Underworld. Gigantomakhia, on the other hand, only ended when almost all of the Gigantes were dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles and the Gigantes are, in a way, parallel characters. Both Herakles and the Giants are almost mightier than the gods. Gaia, the Earth, gives birth to the Gigantes in order for them to avenge the defeat of Kronos during Titanomakhia. This trips the gods out because there is a prophecy among them which declares that unless they employ the help of a mortal, they will not be able to defeat the Gigantes. Zeus takes this well in hand and contrives the means to create the strongest mortal hero of all, who, when he grows up, will be the suitably required ally against their enemy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus we have the story in which Zeus disguises himself as Amphitryon, the fiancé of Herakles’ mother Alkmene, in order to consort with her and sire this hero upon her. He stretches the night in which Herakles is conceived into the length of three nights, in order to produce this strongest and toughest of men. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meanwhile Gaia is scheming to obtain a special plant growing upon her surface. This plant is a drug with the power to make the Gigantes indestructible, even at mortal hands. So Zeus commands the heavenly lights, such as the Sun, Moon and Stars, not to shine while Gaia searches for this substance. Evidently she never finds it, because Herakles grows up, as do the Gigantes, and these huge enemies of the gods are after all slain by this mortal hero in collaboration with the Olympians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Precise Chronology of Gigantomakhia**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus specifies for us, in *Bibliotheka* 2.7.1-2, that Gigantomakhia broke out sometime after Herakles had completed his Twelve *Athloi*, “Labours” or “Tasks.” While sailing back to Greece from an expedition at Troy, Herakles and his army landed on the Aegean island of Kos, which was inhabited by the Meropes, and ruled by Herakles' cousin Eurypylos (a son of Poseidon). Mistaking Herakles and his men for pirates, Eurypylos and his subjects attacked them. This ended badly for the Meropes, whose king and princes were all killed while their island was laid waste. At this point the goddess Athena came to fetch Herakles from there to take him to Phlegra, in Thrace, where the Olympians were at war against the Gigantes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After Herakles had dispensed with the Gigantes, he moved on to attack Augeias, King of the Epeians of Elis, who had broken a deal with him during the performance of one of his Twelve *Athloi*. Here we incidentally get a display of Herakles’ mortality and the fact that he is not all-powerful: he suffers a dramatic defeat at the hands of Augeias’ army generals, the twin brothers Eurytos and Kteatos, who are sometimes portrayed as monstrous or gigantic. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus goes on to say that these brothers were the strongest men alive at the time. It could be that Herakles was, during this encounter, exhausted from waging cosmic battle against the Gigantes. Additionally, the *Bibliotheka* implies that he lost this fight because he fell sick during the attack on Elis. It may nonetheless prove that these twins were stronger than Herakles, since he was only able to kill them by treacherously waylaying them during a sacred ceasefire sometime after they had defeated him (fairly uncharacteristic behaviour for him). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Carlos Parada’s GML delineation of the timeline][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Carlos Parada’s GML delineation of the timeline  &#xD;&#xA;See also [Marc Carlson’s rendition](http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/history/clam.html), as well as a [third alternative, from the Argyrou website](http://www.argyrou.net/homepage/Chronology.htm).&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/l2Unu.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10931" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2669" RevisionGUID="c53893b2-7808-469f-81f8-e0aa7f3ba7a0" CreationDate="2017-06-15T09:26:58.293" UserDisplayName="user3358" Comment="Embeded image, corrected typing." Text="***[Ma'at][1]*** is the ancient Egyptian goddess of Truth, and is represented by a feather in the ancient [Egyptian Book of the Dead][2]. The feather determines the truthfulness of the deceased.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The deceased is brought before [Osiris][3] and recites ritual declarations of his purity. But judgement is not rendered until the deceased's heart is weighed against the feather of Ma'at. If the heart and feather balance, then the deceased has been truthful and goes on to eternal life. If not, the Devourer [Ammit][4] takes him. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This jpeg from Wikipedia shows the deceased's ([Hunefer][5]) heart (on the left side of the scale) being weighed against the feather (on the right side) with Osiris presiding and [Anubis][6] and Ammit looking on. On the right, Horus presents Hunefer (who has passed the test) to Osiris.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![BD_Hunefer][7]][7]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Jpeg source: [Wikipedia: File:BD_Hunefer.jpg][8], Original on display in the [British Museum][9]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maat&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_the_Dead&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammit&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunefer&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anubis&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/infxB.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BD_Hunefer.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://www.britishmuseum.org/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10932" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2669" RevisionGUID="c53893b2-7808-469f-81f8-e0aa7f3ba7a0" CreationDate="2017-06-15T09:26:58.293" Comment="Proposed by 3358 approved by 2774, 1317 edit id of 442" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10933" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2657" RevisionGUID="90e0ad26-579f-43a1-8064-f85fb6c8b09f" CreationDate="2017-06-15T17:29:56.193" UserId="2892" Comment="added 1580 characters in body" Text="Your view of religion is quite restrictive, but not unfamiliar or foreign to adherents of a particular faith, and who believe other forms of faith and practice to be invalid.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Your argument is valid within the context of the parameters you define, but invalid in an expanded context. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;to undercut your thesis, I'll refer you to the [Eleusinian Mysteries][1], which are fairly well documented. (Much had been written on this subject, and theories abound.  One of my favorites, which I think will shed light on this issue for you, specifically in regards to the Indo-European roots, is [Persephone's Quest][2].  The subject is still likely regarded as fairly controversial, but the research is solid.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's hard to see modern Christian ideas arising independently of Ancient Greek religion, including the transcendental quality of physical deities such as Dionysus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Dionysus is killed and resurrected, not just in spirit, by as spirit (wine), a direct referent for the Eucharist, in conjunction with Persephone's embodiment as grain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of worship, the [Festival of Dionysus][3] was a religions festival in honor of the god.  People went and sat, much as people today sit in pews.  There were likely many believers, as well as skeptics, just like today.  The intent of the plays was religious to evoke laughter (Satyr plays) and, most importantly, [catharsis][4] per the dramas.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The emphasis on pity in Christianity is almost certainly influenced by the emphasis on &quot;fear and pity&quot; in the worship of the pre-Christian, dying/resurrected god whose blood is symbolized by the literal spirit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I use the Greek examples because they are so well documented.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Judiasm and Islam may be distinct, but Christianity, which is also categorized as an Abrahamic religion, has similarities to European polytheism, and has even absorbed rituals and religious figures from polytheistic religions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleusinian_Mysteries&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.com/books/about/Persephone_s_Quest.html?id=akI9uAhZAa8C&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysia&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharsis" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10934" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2675" RevisionGUID="2b02f40c-6c59-4095-91bd-c105dd7fa637" CreationDate="2017-06-16T10:31:17.193" UserId="2762" Text="I suspect that these things become confused over time, as they often do.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If I had to guess however, I suggest that a reasonable explanation if you wanted to make the distinction, the 'Winged Fairies' could be called Sylphs &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://central.gutenberg.org/articles/sylph&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They are spirits of air (although this may not have been the original conception) and as such are more often depicted with wings:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Sylph][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even in ballet (La Sylphide):&#xD;&#xA;[![La Sylphide][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/YmdSo.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/EYFF2.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10935" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2676" RevisionGUID="2de93600-0a7a-40eb-9cad-ebddfd3a8e50" CreationDate="2017-06-16T11:19:18.543" UserId="398" Text="Beyond what others listed, there's also [**Anat**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anat):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In a fragmentary passage from [the Epic of Baal], Anat appears as a fierce, wild and furious warrior in a battle, wading knee-deep in blood, striking off heads, cutting off hands, binding the heads to her torso and the hands in her sash, driving out the old men and townsfolk with her arrows, her heart filled with joy. &quot;Her character in this passage anticipates her subsequent warlike role against the enemies of Baal&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's a Cyprian inscription too that equates Anat with **Athena**, a well-known warrior goddess from the Greek tradition. Just look at this passage from the [*Iliad* 4](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad4.htm#anchor_Toc239244849):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So, in the dirt they lay beside each other, among the host of dead, Peiros the Thracian general, and Diores leader of the bronze-clad Epeians. That was no skirmish to make light of, as some unwounded warrior might whom Pallas Athene led into battle, shielding him from the hail of missiles and all the sharp sword-thrusts, for a host of Greeks and Trojans lay there on that day, stretched out side by side, their faces in the dust.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as warrior women from mythology, you couldn't get any more famous than the Amazones. Their leader in the Trojan War, [Penthesilea](http://www.theoi.com/Heroine/AmazonPenthesileia.html), was a preeminent figure who slew many Greeks before finally being taken down by Achilles. For sure check that link for Quintus Smyrnaeus' account of her prowess in battle." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10936" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2677" RevisionGUID="62eb412f-4711-48cf-a429-ae663221cf18" CreationDate="2017-06-16T16:06:09.553" UserId="3898" Text="I found [this pendant on AliExpress][1], and it looks pretty nice. But I'd like to know what the runes mean, if anything?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.aliexpress.com/item-img/1pcs-Nodic-Vikings-Runes-Amulet-Pendant-Necklace-The-Tree-of-Life-Runes-PENDANT-Necklace-Nordic-Talisman/32745997994.html#&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/iRZ2t.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10937" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2677" RevisionGUID="62eb412f-4711-48cf-a429-ae663221cf18" CreationDate="2017-06-16T16:06:09.553" UserId="3898" Text="What do the &quot;runes&quot; on this pendant say?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10938" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2677" RevisionGUID="62eb412f-4711-48cf-a429-ae663221cf18" CreationDate="2017-06-16T16:06:09.553" UserId="3898" Text="|norse|interpretation|symbolism+|runes|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10939" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2678" RevisionGUID="1ec4afd5-e716-4efb-ad19-255d89392d7d" CreationDate="2017-06-16T16:50:29.353" UserId="398" Text="Sorry to say, it's actually nothing more than the [Elder Futhark](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elder_Futhark), the eldest of the runic alphabets.&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can read more on it on [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elder_Futhark). A good giveaway that it doesn't &quot;say&quot; anything is the lack of repeating characters on the pendant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/feAWN.gif" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10941" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2679" RevisionGUID="d0dc35cb-c7ac-4695-b220-3bbb81273a1b" CreationDate="2017-06-16T18:14:57.050" UserId="3899" Text="This is literally the Elder Futhark runic alphabet spelled out. In other words it's the equivalent of &quot;ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10942" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2680" RevisionGUID="d5babd7a-0f07-4b61-9004-9e92aa55fdb6" CreationDate="2017-06-16T20:47:09.560" UserId="3901" Text="As others said, the symbols spell the runic alphabet from the Elder Futhark. They circle Yggdrasil, the mythical tree that connects the nine worlds in Norse cosmology, where Odin hung himself in order to attain the knowledge that he shares with those who pursue runemal." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10943" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2681" RevisionGUID="c31326a0-bbbf-4cd7-927e-6194705d48f8" CreationDate="2017-06-17T06:22:22.427" UserId="3905" Text="Looks like Zeus has punished Prometheus for stealing fire for humans, but did nothing to take that fire away. While Prometheus was hanging on the rock, humans were still possessing fire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it so that Zeus did not want for some reason, or is it so he was unable? In both cases, why? If I understand correctly, Zeus withheld fire from humans once. Why this was not done the second time?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10944" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2681" RevisionGUID="c31326a0-bbbf-4cd7-927e-6194705d48f8" CreationDate="2017-06-17T06:22:22.427" UserId="3905" Text="Why Zeus did not withheld fire from humans the second time?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10945" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2681" RevisionGUID="c31326a0-bbbf-4cd7-927e-6194705d48f8" CreationDate="2017-06-17T06:22:22.427" UserId="3905" Text="|greek|titans|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10946" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2682" RevisionGUID="2cc6b03d-e430-4e9a-b6c4-7ddf58e15e2f" CreationDate="2017-06-17T10:36:03.140" UserId="2682" Text="I have found either a possible source of this claim or an alternative interpretation to the one presented in that statement of that Wikipedia article (as I understand the statement anyway). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Episode 46 of the YouTube series *Mental Floss* is entitled &quot;Misconceptions About Mythology&quot;](https://youtu.be/JsqeUsRZSfs?t=1m22s) and lists 10 apparent misunderstood points of (exclusively Greek and, by extension, Roman) mythology. All of them look good to me except, incidentally, the one in question, which is the list's Number 3. This item makes, near as I can tell, an inaccurate &quot;correction&quot; of the &quot;misconception&quot; that there was in any sense a definitive list of Twelve Olympians. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It lists all the deities you are asking about in exactly the same order but makes a slightly different claim about them, which may only be grammatical, but which nonetheless, therefore, differs from the meaning of the Wikipedia page. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is a transcription of the video presentation, from the [Mental Floss website](http://mentalfloss.com/article/72266/10-misconceptions-about-mythology)&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Mental Floss 46: Misconception #3][1]][1]   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If I am reading that aright, it is saying that there are a number of ancient Greek texts containing lists of the Olympian *Dodekatheon* which swap out some of the names of &quot;the Big Twelve&quot; who are commonly known to have been &quot;canonical&quot; members of the group with one or more among Hebe, Helios, Selene, Eos, Eros and Persephone. But there is no reference that I could find to which texts these might be or what the list of the Twelve should look like in these alternate versions, nor how many of the &quot;usual&quot; members would still be present therein.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My theory about how Wikipedia ended up with its version of this is that someone watched the aforementioned web series episode or read its transcription and then, in the process of editing the information into the Wikipedia article, the point mutated into saying that the listed deities regarding whom you are asking sometimes occurred together in a *different* group of twelve divinities. This is not the same thing being meant by Mental Floss. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A clue that I might be mistaken about Mental Floss being the origin of this (accurate or inaccurate) information is that the Internet series episode was published in late 2015 while the editing of that portion of the Wikipedia article seems to [have taken place (and been discussed/debated) at the beginning of 2008](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Twelve_Olympians#Proposal), rendering it unlikely that the former comes from the latter. The construction of the sentence by Mental Floss, however, I find to be less ambiguous, which thus makes it appear to be more authoritative (for whatever that is worth).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond all that, I can see how *some* of the deities in question fit together, but I am unaware of any ancient source that might link not only all the six mentioned, but which groups them together with six *others*, whichever *those* ones might be.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Helios, Selene and Eos are siblings and are among the cosmic lights of the sky: Sun, Moon and Dawn respectively. Both Selene and Persephone occur, among others, as night-goddesses, and there are some associations between them and Hebe and Eros, maybe also Eos. But putting them all together in a special class of their own seems quite random, which is why it would make more sense to me that the Mental Floss quote is the original form of this listing, which was not intending to create a new group of twelve gods but was rather stating that these six were sometimes members of the *Dodekatheon*.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/oco3C.jpg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. An alternate link to both the YouTube video and a transcription thereof may be found on [Nerdfighteria Wiki](https://nerdfighteria.info/v/JsqeUsRZSfs/).&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10947" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2677" RevisionGUID="119a76f0-0bfd-4be5-93c6-beefe4331b20" CreationDate="2017-06-17T11:41:06.197" UserId="398" Comment="removed link to online sales" Text="I found this pendant on AliExpress, and it looks pretty nice. But I'd like to know what the runes mean, if anything?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/iRZ2t.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10948" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2683" RevisionGUID="4dd32583-78b2-48b2-8d49-67f4cc58b149" CreationDate="2017-06-17T13:24:35.460" UserId="3905" Text="The story describes the two gods, brothers, with highly different abilities (one able to *see* anything, another to *do* anything). Most of the time they live friendly life, co-operating with each other, supplementing powers and none of the two being superior. When together, they are also strong enough to stay away and neutral from the endless clashes and conflicts between other goods, each of these everyone seeking the dominance over the Universe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further the story tells there was a conflict between these two gods in the past, that they damaged each other significantly, the all-seeing Rhynn losing the eye and almighty Kwll losing the hand. They suffered for the long time for breaking they union in this condition. Only after the long time the two gods managed to get the lost hand and eye back, and after that were no longer willing to fight, restoring the former friendship.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This story appears to me somewhat different and emotionally stronger than numerous other events described in *Swords Trilogy&quot;, and I started to think maybe it is based on some real myth that has been known for the author. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Greek [Morai][1] co-operate with they different abilities and while kind of aside and neutral (Zeus rules the world) Morai are actually acting over all other gods. But anyway they are three, and sisters. Could it be that some other story exists?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moirai" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10949" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2683" RevisionGUID="4dd32583-78b2-48b2-8d49-67f4cc58b149" CreationDate="2017-06-17T13:24:35.460" UserId="3905" Text="Is there a real myth behind Michael Moorcock story about these Kwll and Rhynn?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10950" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2683" RevisionGUID="4dd32583-78b2-48b2-8d49-67f4cc58b149" CreationDate="2017-06-17T13:24:35.460" UserId="3905" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10951" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2501" RevisionGUID="4b83f350-9527-4b6c-8bc4-2a6c3a1a01de" CreationDate="2017-06-17T19:45:54.857" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="10952" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2684" RevisionGUID="2125b097-663a-4af3-a6d0-1532649cf728" CreationDate="2017-06-18T02:07:29.650" UserId="2892" Text="This calls to mind [Castor and Pollux][1] (aka Kastor and Polydeuces).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ancient myths don't have as much detail as Moorcock (who is likely quite important in the modern forms, not least for modernizing conceptions of the universe such as order and chaos instead of good and evil, the multiverse, etc.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Kastor and Polydeuces may be presumed to have vastly different powers since one brother is the son of Zeus, and the other fully mortal. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These brothers are depicted as cooperating in the Greek myths, but the idea of opposition seems to have taken root in the astrological conception of Gemini as a binary.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([I'm looking into the connection of Dioscuri and discord][2], and will amend when I get some expert opinions from the folks over on Latin.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Search on the Dioskouri led me to the Hindu [Ashvins][3], with links to other, similar figures. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'd say Moorcock was definitely inspired by mythology, but more in a Joseph Campbell way, which is to say he wasn't literally adapting pre-existing deities, but drawing on very fundamental archetypes that appear in many mythological canons.  After all, Moorcock's body of work constitutes a distinct modern canon which has profoundly influenced modern writers of speculative fiction, much like Lovecraft, in a way that can be understood as mythological. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castor_and_Pollux&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://latin.stackexchange.com/q/4588/1407&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashvins" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10953" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2685" RevisionGUID="03ed113a-5b14-4810-8ee6-9b1abf5f948e" CreationDate="2017-06-18T02:27:43.890" UserId="2892" Text="You can't just take it back after humans have it, unless you destroy all the humans.  Zeus, of course, considered this option on a few occasions, such as [after his deeply disturbing run in with Lycaon][1], and even [tried it with a deluge][2]. But I suspect in this case it was because he thought he had a punishment worse than death, a common theme in Ancient Greek divine punishments, such as turning Lycaon into a wolf, which was not considered desirable, in contrast to some recent conceptions of werewolves.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To this end, Zeus sent Pandora, whose name means &quot;all gifts&quot;, both good and bad. &#xD;&#xA; The gifts in this case were all bad according to Hesiod, with hope itself, the one good thing, perhaps being bad also in that hope may be understood as false in the sense that life is still suffering and we're all going to die.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the words of mighty Zeus himself:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Son of Iapetus, surpassing all in cunning, you are glad that you have outwitted me and stolen fire—a great plague to you yourself and to men that shall be. But I will give men as the price for fire an evil thing in which they may all be glad of heart while they embrace their own destruction.”&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hesiod, Works and Days, 54ff][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D163&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_flood_myths#Deucalion&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0132%3Acard%3D42" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10954" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2685" RevisionGUID="b9e1c854-51d8-4056-9b94-f0b56906adb1" CreationDate="2017-06-18T02:59:15.523" UserId="2892" Comment="Added a bit of context, and reformatted for more easy comprehension" Text="You can't just take it back after humans have it, unless you destroy all the humans.  Zeus, of course, considered this option on a few occasions, such as [after his deeply disturbing run in with Lycaon][1], and even [tried it with a deluge][2]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In this case, Zeus opted for a punishment he considered worse than death. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(This is a common theme in Ancient Greek divine punishments, such as turning Lycaon into a wolf, which was not considered desirable or sexy, in contrast to some recent conceptions of werewolves.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To this end, Zeus sent Pandora, whose name means &quot;all gifts&quot;, both good and bad. &#xD;&#xA; The gifts in this case were all bad according to Hesiod, with hope itself, the one good thing, perhaps being bad also in that hope may be understood as false in the sense that life is still suffering and we're all going to die.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the words of mighty Zeus himself:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “[Son of Iapetus][3], surpassing all in cunning, you are glad that you have outwitted me and stolen fire—a great plague to you yourself and to men that shall be. But I will give men as the price for fire an evil thing in which they may all be glad of heart while they embrace their own destruction.”&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hesiod, Works and Days, 54ff][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's possible that because Prometheus outwitted Zeus, who was himself considered a master schemer, wanted a punishment that showcased his cleverness as opposed to his status as ruler or the destructive power of his lightening bolts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D163&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_flood_myths#Deucalion&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0132%3Acard%3D42" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10955" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2686" RevisionGUID="a7c81943-3189-4e39-ab81-16b53d93c30a" CreationDate="2017-06-18T10:50:19.210" UserId="2682" Text="**The name of the deity represented by the planet in question, strictly speaking, is Lucifer, or Luciferus, that is, as far as Roman mythology is concerned. His Greek equivalent has a few different names, the commonest of which are Eosphoros and Phosphoros.** The majority of Roman mythology is older Greek stories copy+pasted into new files with the Greek names swapped out for Roman ones.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lucifer was a minor star-god, and one of the many sons of the Titan Astraeus by his wife Aurora, the goddess of the dawn. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lucifer had two mortal sons who grew up become kings. [Ceÿx](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0004:entry=ceyx), the younger and more peaceful one, was king of Trachis, and a friend of Hercules and of Achilles’ father Peleus. In [Book 11 of his *Metamorphoses*](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/Metamorph11.htm#anchor_Toc64105702), the poet Ovid says that Ceÿx’s face shone like the brightness of his father the Morning Star, who is described as shrinking from shining in the sky when Ceÿx later drowns in a shipwreck.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lucifer was indistinct, and not to be known, that dawn, and since he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was not allowed to leave the sky, he covered his face in dense cloud. [11.572]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lucifer’s older son Daedalion was a warlike king who became a grandfather of the musician Philammon and an ancestor of the Scythian king Thamyris. Through Daedalion, Lucifer was also an ancestor of the famous Trojan War hero Ulysses, who is called Odysseus in Greek. (Daedalion’s daughter Chione gave birth to Autolycus, the father of Anticlea, the mother of Ulysses.)&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;The few stars which were referred to as “planets” in ancient Italy and Greece were each dedicated to a particular major deity. The star Lucifer was known as the planet Venus because it was governed by the Roman love-goddess Venus. Aeneas, a son of Venus who fought on the side of the Trojans during the Trojan War, escaped from the destruction of Troy and is said to have made his way to Italy where his descendants founded the city of Rome. According to [Varro](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0050:book=2:commline=801), Aeneas was led from Troy to Europe by Lucifer, the star of his mother Venus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The system of naming the planets based on the divinity who owned each one was borrowed from the Greeks. The Greek equivalent of the goddess Venus is Aphrodite. In Greek myth, the planet which Aphrodite owned was supposed to be the Greek star-god Eosphoros [Eosphorus]. Phosphoros was a title used for Eosphorus, whom the Romans called Luciferus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Latin word *Luciferus* and the Greek word *Phosphoros* mean exactly the same thing: “Bringer/Bearer/Carrier of [the] Light,” which name was given to this god because he was the Morning Star, the last luminary of the night sky to be visible on Earth before the sunrise.      &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Ancient Greek astronomy there were five heavenly bodies whose movement was so peculiar that they were dubbed *astra planeta*, the “wandering stars.” From the label applied to them we get the English word *planet*. These were [Stilbon](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/AsterStilbon.html), [**Eosphoros**](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/AsterEosphoros.html), [Pyroeis](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/AsterPyroeis.html), [Phaethon](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/AsterPhaethon.html) and [Phainon](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/AsterPhainon.html). English speakers today know them best, from the names of the divinities who governed them, as Mercury, **Venus**, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn, respectively. These, in turn, correspond to their Greek counterparts Hermes, **Aphrodite**, Ares, Zeus and Kronos, respectively. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In some versions of this cosmology, the sun and the moon are also counted as “planets,” each with its corresponding deity likewise, making up a total of seven “wanderers” in the sky. I suspect that, apart from his multiple names and titles, the main source of confusion about the god Eosphoros/Phosphorus/Lucifer being the same as the *planet* Venus is because Venus is the only one of the planets owned by a female deity, even though all of the stars are themselves male deities. (The one exception to this is the “planet” Moon [who is = the Greek goddess Selene, called Luna by the Romans].) The star-god was male but he was ruled over by a more powerful divinity, who was female, i.e., Venus/Aphrodite.     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**STARLORE**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Greek mythology there was a pair of winged Titans named Helios, who was the sun-god, and Eos, who was the dawn-goddess (the Greek version of Aurora). Each of them drove his/her own fiery chariot drawn by flaming horses, and the two of them were literally the light of the world. When they descended to the Earth at the western edge of the world, the universe was plunged into night-time. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eos was the herald of Helios, and she perpetually rode ahead of him, announcing his arrival to the world each day in the form of morning-tide. In primordial times, Eos was married to her cousin, another winged Titan named Astraios, whose name means “Starry” (*Astraeus* to the Romans). The numerous stars of the sky were the sons of Astraios and Eos. One of these many celestial brothers was Eosphoros, who was named after his own mother. He acted as Eos’ herald, flying on his wings ahead of her to announce to the world the arrival of Eos at the beginning of each day prior to the Dawn’s performance of a similar service for the Sun in the van of his own daily appearance. (In the *Thebaid* and the *Silvae*, however, Statius portrays the Roman Luciferus as riding a winged horse rather than himself being winged. The Greek Eosphoros, on the other hand, is described as a stableman for the Sun’s horses.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eosphoros’ uniqueness among the stars, distinguished even among the few Wandering Ones, is that he was the only one still visible upon the daily appearance of Eos, “Dawn,” in the sky. His name, meaning “Dawn-Bringer,” is a reference to his mother’s light which he “brought” or “carried” into the world. He was the Morning Star. One of his brothers, named Hesperos, “Evening” or “Dusk,” was the Evening Star, being the first visible star in the night sky.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;C. 500s BC, Parmenides of Elea, or rather (according to Pliny the Elder’s *Natural History*) Pythagoras of Samos, realised that the morning and evening stars were in fact the same *planetos*, at which point Eosphoros and Hesperos became merely alternate names for the same star-god in his “brighter” and “darker” aspects. (About a thousand years after Parmenides and Pythagoras, the Egyptian poet Nonnus, in [Dionysiaka 42.340](https://archive.org/stream/dionysiaca03nonnuoft#page/252/mode/2up), refers to this planet as *esperíen Aphrodíten*, the “Aphrodite of the Evening.”) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Phosphoros, “Light-Bringer,” was a title for this deity. *Luciferus* is basically the Latin translation of Greek φωσφόρος (*phosphóros*). The Romans also simply transliterated (rather than trans*lated*) φωσφόρος into Roman script, as *Phosphorus*, and used this as an epithet for their Luciferus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Roman mythology the evening star was originally a distinct god named Vesper or Vesperus (and also Hesperus, from the Greek *Hesperos*), a brother of Luciferus. A similar merging as that between Eosphoros and Hesperos occurred between Lucifer and Vesper when it was deduced that the morning and evening stars were actually a single celestial luminary. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ovid’s *Metamorphoses* describes Lucifer escorting the other stars in a procession out of the night sky at each dawn. Lucan’s *Pharsalia* much more dramatically has the stars flee from the sky, at the speed of hurled spears, upon the approach of the sun. The only one of them who always maintains his position until the sunrise is Lucifer." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10956" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2687" RevisionGUID="835f06a4-cac0-43da-aa09-b2812d0f5261" CreationDate="2017-06-18T17:40:14.227" UserId="3905" Text="Before Christianity, people in European countries traditionally believed into complex hierarchies of gods, semi-gods and some really minor gods which are all well documented. In that sense, there was a religion beyond any doubt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However unlike later beliefs who try to explain the sense of life and teach how to live, old beliefs are significantly focused about whom and how to worship with the goal of raising the agricultural productivity. That makes sense when it was not uncommon for a famine to wipe ten percent of the population in bad year. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These old beliefs do not rush to explain the details how to deserve the heaven (or hell, whatsoever) after death. In this way they are somewhat different, while probably *atheism* is still the wrong word to name them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10957" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2687" RevisionGUID="78086bf0-2790-42e9-8ead-c943ffb1badd" CreationDate="2017-06-18T17:45:36.167" UserId="3905" Comment="added 110 characters in body" Text="Before Christianity, people in European countries traditionally believed into complex hierarchies of gods, semi-gods and some really minor gods which are all well documented. In that sense, there was a religion beyond any doubt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However unlike later beliefs who try to explain the sense of life and teach how to live, old beliefs are significantly focused about whom and how to worship with the goal of raising the agricultural productivity. That makes sense when it was not uncommon for a famine to wipe ten percent of the population in bad year. There were gods to control some resource or process, important for humans, and these gods were asked to help. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These old beliefs do not rush to explain the details how to deserve the heaven (or hell, whatsoever) after death. In this way they are somewhat different, while probably *atheism* is still the wrong word to name them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10958" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2687" RevisionGUID="3b60ca36-18dd-42e2-9281-7a9de4ea954c" CreationDate="2017-06-18T17:53:59.797" UserId="3905" Comment="added 130 characters in body" Text="Before Christianity, people in European countries traditionally believed into complex hierarchies of gods, semi-gods and some really minor gods which are all well documented. In that sense, there was a religion beyond any doubt. See the [list of Lithianian gods][1], for instance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However unlike later beliefs who try to explain the sense of life and teach how to live, old beliefs are significantly focused about whom and how to worship with the goal of raising the agricultural productivity. That makes sense when it was not uncommon for a famine to wipe ten percent of the population in bad year. There were gods to control some resource or process, important for humans, and these gods were asked to help. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These old beliefs do not rush to explain the details how to deserve the heaven (or hell, whatsoever) after death. In this way they are somewhat different, while probably *atheism* is still the wrong word to name them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Lithuanian_mythological_figures" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10959" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2685" RevisionGUID="940c58c2-901c-457a-ac3f-97cb199f89e5" CreationDate="2017-06-18T19:22:01.600" UserId="2892" Comment="added 3 characters in body" Text="You can't just take it back after humans have it, unless you destroy all the humans.  Zeus, of course, considered this option on a few occasions, such as [after his deeply disturbing run in with Lycaon][1], and even [tried it with a deluge][2]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In this case, Zeus opted for a punishment he considered worse than death. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(This is a common theme in Ancient Greek divine punishments, such as turning Lycaon into a wolf, which was not considered desirable or sexy, in contrast to some recent conceptions of werewolves.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To this end, Zeus sent Pandora, whose name means &quot;all gifts&quot;, both good and bad. &#xD;&#xA; The gifts in this case were all bad according to Hesiod, with hope itself, the one good thing, perhaps being bad also in that life is still suffering and we're all going to die.  From this perspective, hope is the greatest mind game ever. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the words of mighty Zeus himself:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “[Son of Iapetus][3], surpassing all in cunning, you are glad that you have outwitted me and stolen fire—a great plague to you yourself and to men that shall be. But I will give men as the price for fire an evil thing in which they may all be glad of heart while they embrace their own destruction.”&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hesiod, Works and Days, 54ff][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's possible that because Prometheus *outwitted( Zeus, who was himself considered a master schemer, the lord of Olympus wanted a punishment that showcased his cleverness as opposed to his status or destructive power.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D163&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_flood_myths#Deucalion&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0132%3Acard%3D42" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10960" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2688" RevisionGUID="b103d3df-95f7-4390-9582-e26bb7b53eb7" CreationDate="2017-06-18T21:03:28.057" UserId="2892" Text="Wikipedia has a short page on the truth-discerning sword [Fragarach](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fragarach), passed from Lugh to Cúchulainn, and subsequently to Conn Cétchathach.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's been a while since I last read the the Ulster Cycle so I was wondering if anyone remembers offhand where this sword appears in the texts." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10961" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2688" RevisionGUID="b103d3df-95f7-4390-9582-e26bb7b53eb7" CreationDate="2017-06-18T21:03:28.057" UserId="2892" Text="Citations for Fragarach in Irish Mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10962" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2688" RevisionGUID="b103d3df-95f7-4390-9582-e26bb7b53eb7" CreationDate="2017-06-18T21:03:28.057" UserId="2892" Text="|ulster-cycle|weapons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10963" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2684" RevisionGUID="13a14c72-d725-45a3-860a-ae93b42504c5" CreationDate="2017-06-18T21:04:32.283" UserId="2892" Comment="Removed the discord reference because I can't adequately support it linguistically. " Text="This calls to mind [Castor and Pollux][1] (aka Kastor and Polydeuces).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ancient myths don't have as much detail as Moorcock (who is likely quite important in the modern forms, not least for modernizing conceptions of the universe such as order and chaos instead of good and evil, the multiverse, etc.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Kastor and Polydeuces may be presumed to have vastly different powers since one brother is the son of Zeus, and the other fully mortal. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These brothers are depicted as cooperating in the Greek myths, but the idea of opposition seems to have taken root in the astrological conception of Gemini as a binary.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Search on the Dioskouri led me to the Hindu [Ashvins][3], with links to other, similar figures. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'd say Moorcock was definitely inspired by mythology, but more in a Joseph Campbell way, which is to say he wasn't literally adapting pre-existing deities, but drawing on very fundamental archetypes that appear in many mythological canons.  After all, Moorcock's body of work constitutes a distinct modern canon which has profoundly influenced modern writers of speculative fiction, much like Lovecraft, in a way that can be understood as mythological. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castor_and_Pollux&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://latin.stackexchange.com/q/4588/1407&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashvins" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10964" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2684" RevisionGUID="06d4c976-9e3b-4833-b6b2-44e0cbb17849" CreationDate="2017-06-19T01:59:33.507" UserId="2892" Comment="Expanded the answer significantly" Text="Moorcock, who I have no doubt was intimately familiar with mythology, is likely drawing on multiple sources.  Here are a few ideas.  I'll continue to amend as more occur to me.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Castor and Pollux][1] may be presumed to have vastly different powers since one brother is the son of Zeus, and the other fully mortal. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is reasonable assumption when one considers their sisters, the twins Helen and [Clytemnestra][2]. Clytemnestra became a towering figure in Greek drama, but Helen's was &quot;the face that launched a thousand ships and burnt the topless towers of Ilium.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These brothers are depicted as cooperating in the Greek myths, but the idea of opposition seems to have taken root in the astrological conception of Gemini as a binary.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Eteocles][3] and [Polynices][4], the sons of [Oedipus][5], [famously killed each other][6] in the [Seven Against Thebes][6]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Thebaid][7] is a [bad*ss story, hugely influential](http://www.purdue.edu/uns/html4ever/2004/041122.Ross.book.html), so it's definitely worth looking at.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Search on the Dioskouri led me to the Hindu [Ashvins][8], with links to other, similar figures. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'd say Moorcock was definitely inspired by mythology, but more in a Joseph Campbell way, which is to say he wasn't literally adapting pre-existing stories and figures, but drawing on very [fundamental archetypes][9] that appear in many mythological canons.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Gilgamesh and Enkidu][10]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not literally brothers, but they first fight, then become friends, in the sense of brothers. Enkidu acknowledges Gilgamesh's greater strength, and unlike G, is also mortal. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cain and Able are another template for feuding brothers, but from a biblical perspective, a closer template might be&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Jacob and Esau&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[who feud, but ultimately reconcile][11]. Again we have a difference in status, where Esau is the elder and has right of inheritance, which requires Jacob to act against him.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is my opinion that Moorcock's body of work constitutes a distinct modern canon which has influenced many writers of speculative fiction in a way that can be understood as mythological. It worth noting that Moorcock sometimes references *himself* in that his stories take place in a multiverse where characters in one book/universe may be reflections of characters in another book/universe.     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castor_and_Pollux&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clytemnestra&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eteocles&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polynices&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oedipus&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://ancientrome.ru/art/artworken/img.htm?id=4121&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thebaid_(Latin_poem)&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashvins&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archetype#Archetypal_literary_criticism&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh#Tablet_two&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_and_Esau#Reconciliation" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10965" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2686" RevisionGUID="ae056aca-b15c-445c-b0b3-45bfa5df8b9f" CreationDate="2017-06-19T03:04:45.963" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="**The name of the deity represented by the planet in question, strictly speaking, is Lucifer, or Luciferus, that is, as far as Roman mythology is concerned. His Greek equivalent has a few different names, the commonest of which are Eosphoros and Phosphoros.** The majority of Roman mythology is older Greek stories copy+pasted into new files with the Greek names swapped out for Roman ones.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lucifer was the personification and god of the Morning Star, and was one of the many sons of the Titan Astraeus by his wife Aurora, the goddess of the dawn. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lucifer had two mortal sons who grew up to become kings. [Ceÿx](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0004:entry=ceyx), the younger and more peaceful one, was king of Trachis, and a friend of Hercules and of Achilles’ father Peleus. In [Book 11 of his *Metamorphoses*](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/Metamorph11.htm#anchor_Toc64105702), the poet Ovid says that Ceÿx’s face shone like the brightness of his father the Dawn-Star, who is described as shrinking from shining in the sky when Ceÿx later drowns in a shipwreck.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lucifer was indistinct, and not to be known, that dawn, and since he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was not allowed to leave the sky, he covered his face in dense cloud. [11.572]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lucifer’s older son Daedalion was a warlike king who became a grandfather of the musician Philammon and an ancestor of the Scythian king Thamyris. Through Daedalion, Lucifer was also an ancestor of the famous Trojan War hero Ulysses, who is called Odysseus in Greek. (Daedalion’s daughter Chione gave birth to Autolycus, the father of Anticlea, the mother of Ulysses.)&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;The few stars which were referred to as “planets” in ancient Italy and Greece were each dedicated to a particular major deity. The star Lucifer was known as the planet Venus because it was governed by the Roman love-goddess Venus. Aeneas, a son of Venus who fought on the side of the Trojans during the Trojan War, escaped from the destruction of Troy and is said to have made his way to Italy where his descendants founded the city of Rome. According to [Varro](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0050:book=2:commline=801), Aeneas was led from Troy to Europe by Lucifer, the star of his mother Venus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The system of naming the planets based on the divinity who owned each one was borrowed from the Greeks. The Greek equivalent of the goddess Venus is Aphrodite. In Greek myth, the planet which Aphrodite owned was supposed to be the Greek star-god Eosphoros [Eosphorus]. Phosphoros was a title used for Eosphorus, whom the Romans called Luciferus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Latin word *Luciferus* and the Greek word *Phosphoros* mean exactly the same thing: “Bringer/Bearer/Carrier of [the] Light,” which name was given to this god because he was the last star of the night sky to be visible on Earth before the sunrise.      &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Ancient Greek astronomy there were five heavenly bodies whose movement was so peculiar that they were dubbed *astra planeta*, the “wandering stars.” From the label applied to them we get the English word *planet*. These were [Stilbon](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/AsterStilbon.html), [**Eosphoros**](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/AsterEosphoros.html), [Pyroeis](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/AsterPyroeis.html), [Phaethon](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/AsterPhaethon.html) and [Phainon](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/AsterPhainon.html). English speakers today know them best, from the Roman names of the divinities who governed them, as Mercury, **Venus**, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn, respectively. These, in turn, correspond to their Greek counterparts Hermes, **Aphrodite**, Ares, Zeus and Kronos, respectively. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In some versions of this cosmology, the sun and the moon are also counted as “planets,” each with its corresponding deity likewise, making up a total of seven “wanderers” in the sky. I suspect that, apart from his multiple names and titles, the main source of confusion about the god Eosphoros/Phosphorus/Lucifer being the same as the *planet* Venus is because Venus is the only one of the planets owned by a female deity, even though all of the stars are themselves male deities. (The one exception to this is the “planet” Moon [who is = the Greek goddess Selene, called Luna by the Romans].) The star-god was male but he was ruled over by a more powerful divinity, who was female, i.e., Venus/Aphrodite.     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**STARLORE**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Greek mythology there was a pair of winged Titans named Helios, who was the sun-god, and Eos, who was the dawn-goddess (the Greek version of Aurora). Each of them drove his/her own fiery chariot drawn by flaming horses, and the two of them were literally the light of the world. When they descended to the Earth at the western edge of the world, the universe was plunged into night-time. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eos was the herald of Helios, and she perpetually rode ahead of him, announcing his arrival to the world each day in the form of morning-tide. In primordial times, Eos was married to her cousin, another winged Titan named Astraios, whose name means “Starry” (*Astraeus* to the Romans). The numerous stars of the sky were the sons of Astraios and Eos. One of these many celestial brothers was Eosphoros, who was named after his own mother. He acted as Eos’ herald, flying on his wings ahead of her to announce to the world the arrival of Eos at the beginning of each day prior to the Dawn’s performance of a similar service for the Sun in the van of his own daily appearance. (In the *Thebaid* and the *Silvae*, however, Statius portrays the Roman Luciferus as riding a winged horse rather than himself being winged. The Greek Eosphoros, on the other hand, is described as a stableman for the Sun’s horses.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eosphoros’ uniqueness among the stars, distinguished even among the few Wandering Ones, is that he was the only one still visible upon the daily appearance of Eos, “Dawn,” in the sky. His name, meaning “Dawn-Bringer,” is a reference to his mother’s light which he “brought” or “carried” into the world. One of his brothers, named Hesperos, “Evening” or “Dusk,” was the Evening Star, being the first visible star in the night sky.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;C. 500s BC, Parmenides of Elea, or rather (according to Pliny the Elder’s *Natural History*) Pythagoras of Samos, realised that the morning and evening stars were in fact the same *planetos*, at which point Eosphoros and Hesperos became merely alternate names for the same star-god in his “brighter” and “darker” aspects. (About a thousand years after Parmenides and Pythagoras, the Egyptian poet Nonnus, in [Dionysiaka 42.340](https://archive.org/stream/dionysiaca03nonnuoft#page/252/mode/2up), refers to this planet as *esperíen Aphrodíten*, the “Aphrodite of the Evening.”) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Phosphoros, “Light-Bringer,” was a title for this deity. *Luciferus* is basically the Latin translation of Greek φωσφόρος (*phosphóros*). The Romans also simply transliterated (rather than trans*lated*) φωσφόρος into Roman script, as *Phosphorus*, and used this as an epithet for their Luciferus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Roman mythology the evening star was originally a distinct god named Vesper or Vesperus (and also Hesperus, from the Greek *Hesperos*), a brother of Luciferus. A similar merging as that between Eosphoros and Hesperos occurred between Lucifer and Vesper when it was deduced that the morning and evening stars were actually a single celestial luminary. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ovid’s *Metamorphoses* describes Lucifer escorting the other stars in a procession out of the night sky at each dawn. Lucan’s *Pharsalia* much more dramatically has the stars flee from the sky, at the speed of hurled spears, upon the approach of the sun. The only one of them who always maintains his position until the sunrise is Lucifer." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10966" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2684" RevisionGUID="5d3963d7-7031-4640-95f9-c5ab7358c70a" CreationDate="2017-06-19T04:31:03.463" UserId="2892" Comment="Added a few more points and a link to Bremmer's book, which is quite detailed" Text="Moorcock, who I have no doubt was intimately familiar with mythology, is likely drawing on multiple sources.  Here are a few ideas.  I'll continue to amend as more occur to me.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Castor and Pollux][1] may be presumed to have vastly different powers since one brother is the son of Zeus, and the other fully mortal. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is reasonable assumption when one considers their sisters, the twins Helen and [Clytemnestra][2]. Clytemnestra became a towering figure in Greek drama, but Helen's was &quot;the face that launched a thousand ships and burnt the topless towers of Ilium.&quot; The brothers are described as having distinct skills by Homer &quot;Kastor, breaker of horses and Polydeukes, good with his fists&quot;. [[Iliad 3.237]][3] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The relationship of these brothers is harmonious, but the idea of twins is a representation of a binary, and this could be said to imply &quot;separate hearts&quot; as in the Latin *discordia*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Eteocles][4] and [Polynices][5], the sons of [Oedipus][6], [famously killed each other][7] in the [Seven Against Thebes][7]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Thebaid][8] is bad*ss, hugely influential, and [here connected to the modern classics Magnificent Seven and Seven Samurai](http://www.purdue.edu/uns/html4ever/2004/041122.Ross.book.html), so it's definitely worth a look.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Greek Religion and Culture, the Bible and the Ancient Near East*, Brenner devotes an entire chapter *[The First Crime: Brothers and Fratricide in the Ancient Mediterranean][9]* to this subject. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Search on the Dioskouri led me to the Hindu [Ashvins][10], with links to other, similar figures. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'd say Moorcock was definitely inspired by mythology, but more in a Joseph Campbell way, which is to say he wasn't literally adapting pre-existing stories and figures, but drawing on very [fundamental archetypes][11] that appear in many mythological canons.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Gilgamesh and Enkidu][12], not literally brothers, but they first fight, then become friends in the sense of brothers. It is only together they can overcome their nemesis.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Enkidu acknowledges Gilgamesh's greater strength, and unlike the god-king, is also mortal. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cain and Able are another template for feuding brothers, but a closer example from the good book might be&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Jacob and Esau [who feud, but ultimately reconcile][13]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Again we have a difference in status--Esau is the elder and has right of inheritance, which requires Jacob to act against him.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;In my opinion that Moorcock's body of work constitutes a distinct modern canon which has influenced many writers of speculative fiction in a way that can be understood as mythological. It's worth noting that Moorcock sometimes references *himself* in that his stories take place in a multiverse where characters in one book/universe may be reflections of characters in another book/universe.     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castor_and_Pollux&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clytemnestra&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D3%3Acard%3D225&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eteocles&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polynices&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oedipus&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://ancientrome.ru/art/artworken/img.htm?id=4121&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thebaid_(Latin_poem)&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://books.google.com/books?id=id2wCQAAQBAJ&amp;lpg=PA67&amp;dq=eteocles%20polynices%20dioskouri&amp;pg=PA57#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashvins&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archetype#Archetypal_literary_criticism&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh#Tablet_two&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_and_Esau#Reconciliation" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10967" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2687" RevisionGUID="549b3602-6e92-4219-90c2-da351818da31" CreationDate="2017-06-19T07:11:26.203" UserId="3905" Comment="added 34 characters in body" Text="Before Christianity, people in European countries traditionally believed into complex hierarchies of gods, semi-gods and some really minor gods which are all well documented. In that sense, there was a religion beyond any doubt. See the [list of Lithianian gods][1], for instance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However unlike later beliefs who try to explain the sense of life and teach how to live, old beliefs are significantly focused about whom and how to worship with the goal of raising the agricultural productivity. That makes sense when it was not uncommon for a famine to wipe ten percent of the population in bad year. Gods had control over resources or processes (animals, crops, weather, sea, fishing, weaving, etc) and it was important to asked them for help. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Religions as recently understood attempt to provide the system of values human should care about, to give sense of life. The ancient pagan beliefs do not rush with such explanations. However it is still probably incorrect to call them *atheism*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Lithuanian_mythological_figures" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10968" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2687" RevisionGUID="7921e8ee-0039-4c6f-9348-15bf0e64de73" CreationDate="2017-06-19T09:25:53.380" UserId="3905" Comment="added 273 characters in body" Text="Before Christianity, people in European countries traditionally believed into complex hierarchies of gods, semi-gods and some really minor gods which are all well documented. In that sense, there was a religion beyond any doubt. See the [list of Lithianian gods][1], for instance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However unlike later beliefs who try to explain the sense of life and teach how to live, old beliefs are significantly focused about whom and how to worship with the goal of raising the agricultural productivity. That makes sense when it was not uncommon for a famine to wipe ten percent of the population in bad year. Gods had control over resources or processes (animals, crops, weather, sea, fishing, weaving, etc) and it was important to asked them for help. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Religions as recently understood attempt to provide the system of values human should care about, to give sense of life. The ancient pagan beliefs do not rush with such explanations. However it is still probably incorrect to call them exactly *atheism*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It may also be possible that there was initially some system of human values in the old beliefs and not just &quot;god X cares about crops, Y cares about forest, Z will take care about you when you die&quot;. Unfortunately significant part of the ancient mythology is lost.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Lithuanian_mythological_figures" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10969" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2687" RevisionGUID="0015b26b-d7b2-48e6-beeb-d6f8c860607f" CreationDate="2017-06-20T06:14:58.280" UserId="3905" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body" Text="Before Christianity, people in European countries traditionally believed into complex hierarchies of gods, semi-gods and some really minor gods which are all well documented. In that sense, there was a religion beyond any doubt. See the [list of Lithianian gods][1], for instance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However unlike later beliefs who try to explain the sense of life and teach how to live, old beliefs are significantly focused about whom and how to worship with the goal of raising the agricultural productivity. That makes sense when it was not uncommon for a famine to wipe ten percent of the population in bad year. Gods had control over resources or processes (animals, crops, weather, sea, fishing, weaving, etc) and it was important to ask them for help. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Religions as recently understood attempt to provide the system of values human should care about, to give sense of life. The ancient pagan beliefs do not rush with such explanations. However it is still probably incorrect to call them exactly *atheism*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It may also be possible that there was initially some system of human values in the old beliefs and not just &quot;god X cares about crops, Y cares about forest, Z will take care about you when you die&quot;. Unfortunately significant part of the ancient mythology is lost.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Lithuanian_mythological_figures" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10974" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2552" RevisionGUID="327f6b60-5865-4137-a558-91c82ff2ab71" CreationDate="2017-06-20T20:44:48.853" UserId="2892" Comment="Updated to acknowledge Adrinka's direct and definitive answer to the question." Text="As I recall, Lucifer comes from the Latin [lux][1] (light), thus as the &quot;star&quot; that hearkens the sunrise, you get &quot;[lucifer][2]&quot;, which combines lux and [fero][3] (bear or carry).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of how and when various terms were used, that will require some real scholarship, but here is my attempt at a primer: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cicero uses the names of the gods, including Venus, to refer to planets in [De Republica, 6.17][4]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt; The universe is composed of nine circles, or rather spheres, one of which is the heavenly one, and is exterior to all the rest, which it embraces; being itself the Supreme God, and bounding and containing the whole. In it are fixed those stars which revolve with never-varying courses. Below this are seven other spheres, which revolve in a contrary direction to that of the heavens. One of these is occupied by the globe which on earth they call Saturn. Next to that is the star of Jupiter, so benign and salutary to mankind. The third in order, is that fiery and terrible planet called Mars. Below this again, almost in the middle region, is the Sun — the leader, governor, the prince of the other luminaries; the soul of the world, which it regulates and illumines, being of such vast size that it pervades and gives light to all places. Then follow Venus and Mercury, which attend, as it were, on the Sun. &#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source:  [Oliver J. Thatcher, ed., The Library of Original Sources (Milwaukee: University Research Extension Co., 1907), Vol. III: The Roman World, pp. 216-241 (with unlisted modifications)][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Note: The source of the English is problematic, as it is not an academic site, but the translation jibes with my reading of the Latin.  The planet/god names are the actual vocabulary in the linked Latin source text.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, Cicero also notes a distinction in the name of the planet depending on when it appears:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Infima est quinque errantium terraeque proxuma stella Veneris, quae Φωσφόρος Graece Lucifer Latine dicitur cum antegreditur solem, cum subsequitur autem Ἕσπερος;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [M. Tullius Cicero, de Natura Deorum &#xD;&#xA;O. Plasberg, Ed.][6]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Essentially: &quot;&quot;Of the five that orbit closest to earth, the star Venus is known as Phosphoros in Greek, and in the Latin tongue is called Lucifer when it precedes the sun, but Hesperos if it follows the sun.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[See [@Brianpck 's analysis of the passage on Stack Latin for more details][7].]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, Venus and Lucifer/Hesperos may be interchangeable in Latin texts, at least per this initial, cursory inquiry.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;[Adrinka's seems to be the direct and definitive answer][8]: &quot;The star Lucifer was known as the planet Venus because it was governed by the Roman love-goddess Venus.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=lux&amp;la=la&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=lucifer&amp;la=la#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=fero&amp;la=la#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Cic.%20Rep.%206.17.17&amp;lang=original&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.constitution.org/rom/republica6.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2007.01.0037%3Abook%3D2%3Asection%3D53&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://latin.stackexchange.com/a/4152/1407&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2686/2892" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10975" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2690" RevisionGUID="de7240af-ed47-4c51-8770-23809547645a" CreationDate="2017-06-20T21:22:43.773" UserId="3858" Text="I've been re-reading _Fables and Reflections_, the sixth volume of _The Sandman_, and in the story title &quot;The Hunt&quot;, I stumbled upon the following dialogue:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story is full of Slavic folk lore, being told by a Slavic immigrant. Vassily, the man on the left, is a werewolf, whose people are called Gaji. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The piece I'm confused about is Baba Yaga accepting Koschei's heart as payment - why? Surely it's emerald, but for some reason I doubt that's the case here. I think having Koschei's heart offers one a leverage over him, but in this story Koschei is (allegedly, and most likely) dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Question: what does Baba Yaga want Koschei's heart for?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/3BRcY.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10976" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2690" RevisionGUID="de7240af-ed47-4c51-8770-23809547645a" CreationDate="2017-06-20T21:22:43.773" UserId="3858" Text="Does Baba Yaga ever desire the heart of Koschei the Deathless?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10977" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2690" RevisionGUID="de7240af-ed47-4c51-8770-23809547645a" CreationDate="2017-06-20T21:22:43.773" UserId="3858" Text="|folklore|slavic|baba-yaga|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10978" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2686" RevisionGUID="25be1697-f3d1-40b0-959b-81a3c5df0c43" CreationDate="2017-06-21T19:55:32.480" UserId="2682" Comment="added a detail" Text="**The name of the deity represented by the planet in question, strictly speaking, is Lucifer, or Luciferus, that is, as far as Roman mythology is concerned. His Greek equivalent has a few different names, the commonest of which are Eosphoros and Phosphoros.** The majority of Roman mythology is older Greek stories copy+pasted into new files with the Greek names swapped out for Roman ones.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lucifer was the personification and god of the Morning Star, and was one of the many sons of the Titan Astraeus by his wife Aurora, the goddess of the dawn. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lucifer had two mortal sons who grew up to become kings. [Ceÿx](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0004:entry=ceyx), the younger and more peaceful one, was king of Trachis, and a friend of Hercules and of Achilles’ father Peleus. In [Book 11 of his *Metamorphoses*](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/Metamorph11.htm#anchor_Toc64105702), the poet Ovid says that Ceÿx’s face shone like the brightness of his father the Dawn-Star, who is described as shrinking from shining in the sky when Ceÿx later drowns in a shipwreck.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lucifer was indistinct, and not to be known, that dawn, and since he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was not allowed to leave the sky, he covered his face in dense cloud. [11.572]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lucifer’s older son Daedalion was a warlike king who became a grandfather of the musician Philammon and an ancestor of the Scythian king Thamyris. Through Daedalion, Lucifer was also an ancestor of the famous Trojan War hero Ulysses, who is called Odysseus in Greek. (Daedalion’s daughter Chione gave birth to Autolycus, the father of Anticlea, the mother of Ulysses.)&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;The few stars which were referred to as “planets” in ancient Italy and Greece were each dedicated to a particular major deity. The star Lucifer was known as the planet Venus because it was governed by the Roman love-goddess Venus. Aeneas, a son of Venus who fought on the side of the Trojans during the Trojan War, escaped from the destruction of Troy and is said to have made his way to Italy where his descendants founded the city of Rome. According to [Varro](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0050:book=2:commline=801), Aeneas was led from Troy to Europe by Lucifer, the star of his mother Venus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The system of naming the planets based on the divinity who owned each one was borrowed from the Greeks. The Greek equivalent of the goddess Venus is Aphrodite. In Greek myth, the planet which Aphrodite owned was supposed to be the Greek star-god Eosphoros [Eosphorus]. Phosphoros was a title used for Eosphorus, whom the Romans called Luciferus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Latin word *Luciferus* and the Greek word *Phosphoros* mean exactly the same thing: “Bringer/Bearer/Carrier of [the] Light,” which name was given to this god because he was the last star of the night sky to be visible on Earth before the sunrise.      &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Ancient Greek astronomy there were five heavenly bodies whose movement was so peculiar that they were dubbed *astra planeta*, the “wandering stars.” From the label applied to them we get the English word *planet*. These were [Stilbon](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/AsterStilbon.html), [**Eosphoros**](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/AsterEosphoros.html), [Pyroeis](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/AsterPyroeis.html), [Phaethon](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/AsterPhaethon.html) and [Phainon](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/AsterPhainon.html). English speakers today know them best, from the Roman names of the divinities who governed them, as Mercury, **Venus**, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn, respectively. These, in turn, correspond to their Greek counterparts Hermes, **Aphrodite**, Ares, Zeus and Kronos, respectively. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In some versions of this cosmology, the sun and the moon are also counted as “planets,” each with its corresponding deity likewise, making up a total of seven “wanderers” in the sky. I suspect that, apart from his multiple names and titles, the main source of confusion about the god Eosphoros/Phosphorus/Lucifer being the same as the *planet* Venus is because Venus is the only one of the planets owned by a female deity, even though all of the stars are themselves male deities. (The one exception to this is the “planet” Moon [who is = the Greek goddess Selene, called Luna by the Romans].) The star-god was male but he was ruled over by a more powerful divinity, who was female, i.e., Venus/Aphrodite.     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**STARLORE**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Greek mythology there was a pair of winged Titans named Helios, who was the sun-god, and Eos, who was the dawn-goddess (the Greek version of Aurora). Each of them drove his/her own fiery chariot drawn by flaming horses, and the two of them were literally the light of the world. When they descended to the Earth at the western edge of the world, the universe was plunged into night-time. (And during certain portions of the month, the night was governed by another winged Titan named Selene, the sister of Helios and Eos). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eos was the herald of Helios, and she perpetually rode ahead of him, announcing his arrival to the world each day in the form of morning-tide. In primordial times, Eos was married to her cousin, another winged Titan named Astraios, whose name means “Starry” (*Astraeus* to the Romans). The numerous stars of the sky were the sons of Astraios and Eos. One of these many celestial brothers was Eosphoros, who was named after his own mother. He acted as Eos’ herald, flying on his wings ahead of her to announce to the world the arrival of Eos at the beginning of each day prior to the Dawn’s performance of a similar service for the Sun in the van of his own daily appearance. (In the *Thebaid* and the *Silvae*, however, Statius portrays the Roman Luciferus as riding a winged horse rather than himself being winged. The Greek Eosphoros, on the other hand, is described as a stableman for the Sun’s horses.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eosphoros’ uniqueness among the stars, distinguished even among the few Wandering Ones, is that he was the only one still visible upon the daily appearance of Eos, “Dawn,” in the sky. His name, meaning “Dawn-Bringer,” is a reference to his mother’s light which he “brought” or “carried” into the world. One of his brothers, named Hesperos, “Evening” or “Dusk,” was the Evening Star, being the first visible star in the night sky.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;C. 500s BC, Parmenides of Elea, or rather (according to Pliny the Elder’s *Natural History*) Pythagoras of Samos, realised that the morning and evening stars were in fact the same *planetos*, at which point Eosphoros and Hesperos became merely alternate names for the same star-god in his “brighter” and “darker” aspects. (About a thousand years after Parmenides and Pythagoras, the Egyptian poet Nonnus, in [Dionysiaka 42.340](https://archive.org/stream/dionysiaca03nonnuoft#page/252/mode/2up), refers to this planet as *esperíen Aphrodíten*, the “Aphrodite of the Evening.”) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Phosphoros, “Light-Bringer,” was a title for this deity. *Luciferus* is basically the Latin translation of Greek φωσφόρος (*phosphóros*). The Romans also simply transliterated (rather than trans*lated*) φωσφόρος into Roman script, as *Phosphorus*, and used this as an epithet for their Luciferus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Roman mythology the evening star was originally a distinct god named Vesper or Vesperus (and also Hesperus, from the Greek *Hesperos*), a brother of Luciferus. A similar merging as that between Eosphoros and Hesperos occurred between Lucifer and Vesper when it was deduced that the morning and evening stars were actually a single celestial luminary. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ovid’s *Metamorphoses* describes Lucifer escorting the other stars in a procession out of the night sky at each dawn. Lucan’s *Pharsalia* much more dramatically has the stars flee from the sky, at the speed of hurled spears, upon the approach of the sun. The only one of them who always maintains his position until the sunrise is Lucifer." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10979" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2691" RevisionGUID="cedba107-3ea5-4ad2-9444-b2ccd4e41952" CreationDate="2017-06-21T20:49:16.087" UserId="2682" Text="**Gaia, the personification and goddess of the Earth, was the first to foretell the future at Delphi, long before the birth of her great-grandson Apollon** [Apollo]. **She is also said to have been the first divinity to have a priestess serving as her spokesperson at this location.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the 100s AD, a writer named Pausanias went on a tour of Greece and collected information from all over the country into a 10-book travelogue entitled *Hellados Periegesis*, the “Description of Hellas [Greece].” From his travel through the region of Phokis and the neighbourhood of the Parnassos Glen, he gathered five different mainstream versions of the story about the origin of the oracle and temple of the city of Delphi, some of them differing on very minor points from others. These five accounts are listed below, referencing the information provided in [the last book of the *Periegesis*](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Pausanias10A.html#5).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going by chronological sequence, **the first explicit prophecy delivered at Delphi was a lyrical poem sang by Phemonoe, the first priestess of Apollon at Delphi.** (See #4, below, for further detail.) But there are references to earlier utterances being issued, with no mention, however, of what their content was. (This likewise is further elaborated below, *passim*.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The first explicit consultation of this oracle, chronologically, occurs before Apollon’s first arrival at Delphi, immediately after the Flood, when Deukalion** [Deucalion] **and Pyrrha come to the shrine.** (See #2 for more on this.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**1.	*The oracle was owned by Gaia, who appointed a local Oreiad (mountain-nymph) named Daphnis as her prophetess.*** (Aaron Atsma, of [The Theoi Project website](http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheDaphnis.html), speculates that Daphnis was Gaia’s daughter.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later on, at the end of this chapter (after listing the other four versions of the oracle’s origin), Pausanias says that, going by poetic tradition, Gaia had also appointed her offspring, the dragon Python, as the guardian of the oracle. After Apollon showed up and killed Python, the oracle was named after it Pythia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;**2.	*The oracle was owned by Gaia and Poseidon in common. Gaia uttered oracles herself while Poseidon had appointed Pyrkon as his mouthpiece.*** Pausanias mentions nothing further to explain who or what Pyrkon was, but in the commentary of his own [1898 translation of the *Description of Greece*](https://books.google.com/books?id=uqUNAAAAIAAJ&amp;pg=PA236#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false), Sir James George Frazer points out that, according to Hesychius, “At Delphi there were priests called *pyrkooi* (πυρκόοι) who divined by means of omens drawn from burnt sacrifice.” Citing Pausanias’ later mention of Poseidon’s altar in the temple of Apollon at Delphi, Frazer goes on to speculate that the *pyrkooi* may have served at this altar, perhaps tracing themselves back to this otherwise unattested Pyrkon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To me *Pyrkon* looks suspiciously similar to *Python*, and perhaps it is possible that this is a typo on Pausanias’s part, or that this account preserves a version of the Delphic dragon legend in which the guardian monster’s name is Pyrkon rather than Python. Either way, if Pyrkon and Python are somehow the same entity, then in this tradition the creature is associated with Poseidon rather than Gaia. (The mythos of the Delphic dragon is, *per se*, [a mixed-up mass of conflicting traditions](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1251/why-is-echidna-at-arima/2050#2050), some of which hint at Greek dragon lore set in other parts of the world.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pausanias then quotes a poem entitled *Eumolpia*, the work of a certain Musaeus son of Antiophemus, which says that Gaia gave her share of the shrine to her daughter Themis, who later bequeathed it to Apollon. As for Poseidon, he traded his part of the shrine with Apollon in exchange for the island of Kalaureia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the middle of this chapter Pausanias also says that Poseidon’s son Parnassos was the first person to build a city in this region. From him, Parnassos, the famous mountain upon which Delphi was built, derived its name. Parnassos was also the first to use the flights of birds as a soothsaying device.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One century before Pausanias, the Roman poet Ovid followed this tradition in his *Metamorphoses*, wherein Deukalion and Pyrrha survive the Flood by sheltering themselves in a wooden chest which floats on the flood-waters and eventually, at the end of the cataclysm, settles into the groove between the twin peaks of Mt Parnassos. The two survivor spouses then walk down the mountain to find upon its slopes the shrine of Themis, who happens to be their grandmother (Deukalion’s father Prometheus and Pyrrha’s father Epimetheus are Themis’s sons), in order to inquire of her how they might repeople the Earth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going by the narrative chronology of the myths of Greece and Rome, **this would be the first reference, in the timeline, to someone explicitly consulting the oracle at Delphi** (rather than the prophecies simply being issued in song [spontaneously rather than upon request, so it would seem]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his play *Eumenides*, the Greek tragedian Aeschylus (roughly four centuries prior to Ovid) portrays Gaia as the first deity to give oracles at Delphi. In *Prometheus Bound*, another play of Aeschylus, the Titan Prometheus says that his mother, who would frequently reveal the future to him, has many names, two of which are Themis and Gaia. This could provide a way to combine this version with #1, in which there is no mention of Themis: there would not need to be such a mention if she is actually just a form of Gaia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover in *Eumenides*, there is an owner of the oracle in between Themis and Apollon. Themis gives her share of the oracle to her sister Phoibe [Phoebe], who then gives it as a birthday present to her grandson Apollon, who is also named Phoibos [Phoebus] in her honour.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are yet two more variants of this tradition, as pointed out by Frazer:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to Euripides (*Iphig. in Taur.*, 1259 *sqq.*) Apollo&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dismissed Themis and took her place at the oracle; but Earth, to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; avenge the wrong done her daughter, sent dreams which disturbed and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; confused the persons who consulted the oracle, till Zeus, at the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; entreaty of Apollo, compelled her to desist. Some thought that Apollo&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and Themis had founded the oracle jointly (Strabo, ix. p. 422).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whatever the case, Deukalion and Pyrrha arrived at Delphi during Themis’s tenure thereat, and if this goddess was operating in conjunction with any other deity at the time, nonetheless she specifically is the one who was consulted, probably on account of the couple’s strong familial connection with her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Deukalion and Pyrrha had a daughter named Melantho, who was violated by Poseidon. She bore the sea-god a son named Delphos who, when he had grown up, built the city of Delphi, to which he gave his name. In *Eumenides*, Apollon first arrives at Delphi while Delphos is ruling the city. Going by most other accounts, Delphos is a son of Apollon by a different woman.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**3.	*Shepherds feeding their flocks** (consisting primarily of goats, it seems) **inhaled the subterraneous vapour at the site and began to prophesy the words of Apollon.*** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A variant version of this tradition, however, has it that it is *the goats* that were being herded which, technically, were the first prophets here (not of Apollon but of the more ancient Gaia), as Frazer further elaborates:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The story of the discovery of the Delphic oracle, as told by Diodorus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (xvi. 26), is this. On the spot afterwards occupied by the inmost&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shrine (*adytum*) of the sanctuary there was a chasm in the ground. A&#xD;&#xA;&gt; flock of goats was browsing near the chasm, and each goat as it&#xD;&#xA;&gt; approached the chasm began to skip and utter unwonted sounds. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; goatherd, observing this with surprise, went up to the hole, was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; affected in the same way as his goats, and began to prophesy. The fame&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of this was spread abroad, many people came to the chasm and fell into&#xD;&#xA;&gt; prophetic ecstasy. So the place was deemed an oracle of Earth. At last&#xD;&#xA;&gt; when many persons, in the height of their frenzy, had leaped into the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hole and disappeared, the neighbours resolved to appoint one woman to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the office of prophetess, and in order that she might receive the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; prophetic influence and give the oracles in safety, they devised a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; three-legged machine or tripod, which she mounted when she was about&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to prophesy. The oracular chasm is described by Strabo (ix. p. 419) as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; follows: “They say that the oracle is a perpendicular cavern, not very&#xD;&#xA;&gt; broad at the mouth, and that an inspiring air is wafted up from it,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and that over the mouth of it stands a high tripod, which the Pythian&#xD;&#xA;&gt; priestess mounts and receiving the air utters the oracles, some in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; verse and some in prose, and the prose oracles are put into verse by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; poets employed in the service of the sanctuary.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A connection between this and the island of Crete occurs at the end of the same paragraph of Frazer’s commentary: “According to Plutarch (*De defectu oraculorum*, 42 and 46) the name of the man who first discovered the inspiring influence of the cavern by falling into it was Coretas. Some have taken the name Coretas to be etymologically connected with *Curetes* and *Crete* and hence have regarded it as a confirmation of the legend that the Delphic oracle was of Cretan origin.” He goes on:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Before the priestess descended into the cavern, omens were taken from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; goats. Cold water was poured on the goat’s head, and if the animal&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shivered and shook in all its limbs, the omen was good, the goat was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sacrificed, and the priestess descended into the cave. But if the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; goat, when drenched with the water, stood motionless or only shook its&#xD;&#xA;&gt; head, the omen was unfavourable, and the priestess did not go down.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The origin of this custom was explained by the story that the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; inspiring influences which emanated from the cave had first been&#xD;&#xA;&gt; experienced by goats. See Plutarch, *De defectu oraculorum*, 46, 49,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and 51; Diodorus, xvi. 26.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**4.	*Phemonoe was the first prophetess of Apollon, and sang in hexameter verse.* This,** says Pausanias here, **is the most prevalent view.** The *Periegesis* implies that the first oracle sang by Phemonoe was a prophecy about the arrival of Apollon at Delphi and the destruction of Python upon that advent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Phemonoe was a daughter of Apollon or of Delphos the founder of Delphi (in the latter of which instances she was a granddaughter of either Apollon or Poseidon). Her mother Kastalia, a daughter of the River Akhelous, transformed into a spring of water at the foot of Mt Parnassos in order to escape the advances of Apollon. Pausanias says that, in conjunction with an adjoining spring, the waters of Kastalia are what inspired the local prophetesses of Apollon with their oracular powers. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**5.	*According to the Delphian poetess Boio** [Boeo], says Pausanias, **the shrine of Apollon at Delphi was built by a group of Hyperboreans led by Olen, Pagasos and Agyieos. Olen was the first prophet of Apollon, chanting the hexameter oracles.*** The *Hellados Periegesis* 10.5.8 qualifies this with the disclaimer that &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tradition, however, reports no other man as prophet, but makes mention&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of prophetesses only.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10981" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2691" RevisionGUID="fed7c385-4ab4-48bf-97a6-aa6619c71c47" CreationDate="2017-06-22T06:35:17.060" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; added a detail" Text="**Gaia, the personification and goddess of the Earth, was the first to foretell the future at Delphi, long before the birth of her great-grandson Apollon** [Apollo]. **She is also said to have been the first divinity to have a priestess serving as her spokesperson at this location.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the 100s AD, a writer named Pausanias went on a tour of Greece and collected information from all over the country into a 10-book travelogue entitled *Hellados Periegesis*, the “Description of Hellas [Greece].” From his travel through the region of Phokis and the neighbourhood of the Parnassos Glen, he gathered five different mainstream versions of the story about the origin of the oracle and temple of the city of Delphi, some of them differing on very minor points from others. These five accounts are listed below, referencing the information provided in [the last book of the *Periegesis*](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Pausanias10A.html#5).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going by chronological sequence, **the first explicit prophecy delivered at Delphi was a lyrical poem sang by Phemonoe, the first priestess of Apollon at Delphi.** (See #4, below, for further detail.) But there are references to earlier utterances being issued, with no mention, however, of what their content was. (This likewise is further elaborated below, *passim*.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The first explicit consultation of this oracle, chronologically, occurs before Apollon’s first arrival at Delphi, immediately after the Flood, when Deukalion** [Deucalion] **and Pyrrha come to the shrine.** (See #2 for more on this.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**1.	*The oracle was owned by Gaia, who appointed a local Oreiad (mountain-nymph) named Daphnis as her prophetess.*** (Aaron Atsma, of [The Theoi Project website](http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheDaphnis.html), speculates that Daphnis was Gaia’s daughter.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later on, at the end of this chapter (after listing the other four versions of the oracle’s origin), Pausanias says that, going by poetic tradition, Gaia had also appointed her offspring, the dragon Python, as the guardian of the oracle. After Apollon showed up and killed Python, the oracle was named after it Pythia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;**2.	*The oracle was owned by Gaia and Poseidon in common. Gaia uttered oracles herself while Poseidon had appointed Pyrkon as his mouthpiece.*** Pausanias mentions nothing further to explain who or what Pyrkon was, but in the commentary of his own [1898 translation of the *Description of Greece*](https://books.google.com/books?id=uqUNAAAAIAAJ&amp;pg=PA236#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false)&lt;sup&gt;✭&lt;/sup&gt;, Sir James George Frazer points out that, according to Hesychius, “At Delphi there were priests called *pyrkooi* (πυρκόοι) who divined by means of omens drawn from burnt sacrifice.” Citing Pausanias’ later mention of Poseidon’s altar in the temple of Apollon at Delphi, Frazer goes on to speculate that the *pyrkooi* may have served at this altar, perhaps tracing themselves back to this otherwise unattested Pyrkon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To me *Pyrkon* looks suspiciously similar to *Python*, and perhaps it is possible that this is a typo on Pausanias’s part, or that this account preserves a version of the Delphic dragon legend in which the guardian monster’s name is Pyrkon rather than Python. Either way, if Pyrkon and Python are somehow the same entity, then in this tradition the creature is associated with Poseidon rather than Gaia. (The mythos of the Delphic dragon is, *per se*, [a mixed-up mass of conflicting traditions](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1251/why-is-echidna-at-arima/2050#2050), some of which hint at Greek dragon lore set in other parts of the world.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pausanias then quotes a poem entitled *Eumolpia*, the work of a certain Musaeus son of Antiophemus, which says that Gaia gave her share of the shrine to her daughter Themis, who later bequeathed it to Apollon. As for Poseidon, he traded his part of the shrine with Apollon in exchange for the island of Kalaureia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the middle of this chapter Pausanias also says that Poseidon’s son Parnassos was the first person to build a city in this region. From him, Parnassos, the famous mountain upon which Delphi was built, derived its name. Parnassos was also the first to use the flights of birds as a soothsaying device.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One century before Pausanias, the Roman poet Ovid followed this tradition in his *Metamorphoses*, wherein Deukalion and Pyrrha survive the Flood by sheltering themselves in a wooden chest which floats on the flood-waters and eventually, at the end of the cataclysm, settles into the groove between the twin peaks of Mt Parnassos. The two survivor spouses then walk down the mountain to find upon its slopes the shrine of Themis, who happens to be their grandmother (Deukalion’s father Prometheus and Pyrrha’s father Epimetheus are Themis’s sons), in order to inquire of her how they might repeople the Earth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going by the narrative chronology of the myths of Greece and Rome, **this would be the first reference, in the timeline, to someone explicitly consulting the oracle at Delphi** (rather than the prophecies simply being issued in song [spontaneously rather than upon request, so it would seem]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his play *Eumenides*, the Greek tragedian Aeschylus (roughly four centuries prior to Ovid) portrays Gaia as the first deity to give oracles at Delphi. In *Prometheus Bound*, another play of Aeschylus, the Titan Prometheus says that his mother, who would frequently reveal the future to him, has many names, two of which are Themis and Gaia. This could provide a way to combine this version with #1, in which there is no mention of Themis: there would not need to be such a mention if she is actually just a form of Gaia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover in *Eumenides*, there is an owner of the oracle in between Themis and Apollon. Themis gives her share of the oracle to her sister Phoibe [Phoebe], who then gives it as a birthday present to her grandson Apollon, who is also named Phoibos [Phoebus] in her honour.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are yet two more variants of this tradition, as pointed out by Frazer:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to Euripides (*Iphig. in Taur.* 1259 *sqq.*) Apollo&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dismissed Themis and took her place at the oracle; but Earth, to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; avenge the wrong done her daughter, sent dreams which disturbed and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; confused the persons who consulted the oracle, till Zeus, at the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; entreaty of Apollo, compelled her to desist. Some thought that Apollo&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and Themis had founded the oracle jointly (Strabo, ix. p. 422).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whatever the case, Deukalion and Pyrrha arrived at Delphi during Themis’s tenure thereat, and if this goddess was operating in conjunction with any other deity at the time, nonetheless she specifically is the one who was consulted, probably on account of the couple’s strong familial connection with her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Deukalion and Pyrrha had a daughter named Melantho, who was violated by Poseidon. She bore the sea-god a son named Delphos who, when he had grown up, built the city of Delphi, to which he gave his name. In *Eumenides*, Apollon first arrives at Delphi while Delphos is ruling the city. Going by most other accounts, Delphos is a son of Apollon by a different woman.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;✭ Pausanias's *Description of Greece* Translated with a Commentary by J.G. Frazer, in Six Volumes.   &#xD;&#xA;1898. MacMillan &amp; Co. Ltd, London (UK) and The MacMillan Comapny, New York (USA).&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**3.	*Shepherds feeding their flocks** (consisting primarily of goats, it seems) **inhaled the subterraneous vapour at the site and began to prophesy the words of Apollon.*** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A variant version of this tradition, however, has it that it is *the goats* that were being herded which, technically, were the first prophets here (not of Apollon but of the more ancient Gaia), as Frazer further elaborates:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The story of the discovery of the Delphic oracle, as told by Diodorus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (xvi. 26), is this. On the spot afterwards occupied by the inmost&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shrine (*adytum*) of the sanctuary there was a chasm in the ground. A&#xD;&#xA;&gt; flock of goats was browsing near the chasm, and each goat as it&#xD;&#xA;&gt; approached the chasm began to skip and utter unwonted sounds. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; goatherd, observing this with surprise, went up to the hole, was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; affected in the same way as his goats, and began to prophesy. The fame&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of this was spread abroad, many people came to the chasm and fell into&#xD;&#xA;&gt; prophetic ecstasy. So the place was deemed an oracle of Earth. At last&#xD;&#xA;&gt; when many persons, in the height of their frenzy, had leaped into the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hole and disappeared, the neighbours resolved to appoint one woman to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the office of prophetess, and in order that she might receive the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; prophetic influence and give the oracles in safety, they devised a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; three-legged machine or tripod, which she mounted when she was about&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to prophesy. The oracular chasm is described by Strabo (ix. p. 419) as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; follows: “They say that the oracle is a perpendicular cavern, not very&#xD;&#xA;&gt; broad at the mouth, and that an inspiring air is wafted up from it,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and that over the mouth of it stands a high tripod, which the Pythian&#xD;&#xA;&gt; priestess mounts and receiving the air utters the oracles, some in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; verse and some in prose, and the prose oracles are put into verse by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; poets employed in the service of the sanctuary.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A connection between this and the island of Crete occurs at the end of the same paragraph of Frazer’s commentary: “According to Plutarch (*De defectu oraculorum*, 42 and 46) the name of the man who first discovered the inspiring influence of the cavern by falling into it was Coretas. Some have taken the name Coretas to be etymologically connected with *Curetes* and *Crete* and hence have regarded it as a confirmation of the legend that the Delphic oracle was of Cretan origin.” He goes on:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Before the priestess descended into the cavern, omens were taken from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; goats. Cold water was poured on the goat’s head, and if the animal&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shivered and shook in all its limbs, the omen was good, the goat was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sacrificed, and the priestess descended into the cave. But if the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; goat, when drenched with the water, stood motionless or only shook its&#xD;&#xA;&gt; head, the omen was unfavourable, and the priestess did not go down.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The origin of this custom was explained by the story that the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; inspiring influences which emanated from the cave had first been&#xD;&#xA;&gt; experienced by goats. See Plutarch, *De defectu oraculorum*, 46, 49,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and 51; Diodorus, xvi. 26.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**4.	*Phemonoe was the first prophetess of Apollon, and sang in hexameter verse.* This,** says Pausanias here, **is the most prevalent view.** The *Periegesis* implies that the first oracle sang by Phemonoe was a prophecy about the arrival of Apollon at Delphi and the destruction of Python upon that advent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Phemonoe was a daughter of Apollon or of Delphos the founder of Delphi (in the latter of which instances she was a granddaughter of either Apollon or Poseidon). Her mother Kastalia, a daughter of the River Akhelous, transformed into a spring of water at the foot of Mt Parnassos in order to escape the advances of Apollon. Pausanias says that, in conjunction with an adjoining spring, the waters of Kastalia are what inspired the local prophetesses of Apollon with their oracular powers. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**5.	*According to the Delphian poetess Boio** [Boeo], says Pausanias, **the shrine of Apollon at Delphi was built by a group of Hyperboreans led by Olen, Pagasos and Agyieos. Olen was the first prophet of Apollon, chanting the hexameter oracles.*** The *Hellados Periegesis* 10.5.8 qualifies this with the disclaimer that &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tradition, however, reports no other man as prophet, but makes mention&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of prophetesses only.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10983" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2693" RevisionGUID="6f347cff-3413-408e-bd3a-efe9a0fe962f" CreationDate="2017-06-23T15:13:11.920" UserId="3931" Text="I don't think there's a word already existing, but I'm not going to pass up the chance to try and make one. Just combining Latin and Greek roots, a psychophagus would be a &quot;soul eater&quot;. There could also be specialized words for each emotion-feeder, such as phobophagus (fear eater), iraphagus (anger/rage eater), etc. Motophagus would be the word for emotion eater, but that's much more questionable than soul eater (psychophagus). " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10984" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1231" RevisionGUID="6ff4b16c-24f8-49e5-a600-05feceb6c405" CreationDate="2017-06-23T20:55:27.873" UserId="967" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="Psychic vampires. &#xD;&#xA;[Here's a Wikipedia entry][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a popular myth that they feed on people's emotions, especially negative ones. This is also sometimes attributed to people who seem to provoke negative emotions in others on purpose.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychic_vampire" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10986" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2694" RevisionGUID="0fb11fb1-b77a-435a-9898-f74ea39b16d2" CreationDate="2017-06-24T04:40:52.503" UserId="2892" Text="I was watching the finale of American Gods (&quot;[Come to Jesus][1]&quot;), which centered on the goddess [Ostara][2], and I was also just reading this interesting little article on [Astraea][3], and I thought, the two names sound sort of similar...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ostara is associated with the Spring, and this presents some obvious problems if we relate [Astrea][4] to Virgo, and the etymology of Ostara seems to be &quot;dawn&quot; as opposed to &quot;starry&quot;, but Ostara is related to the PIE root for &quot;shine&quot; ([h₂ews-][5]), which is close to the PIE root for &quot;star&quot; ([h₂stḗr][6]), itself derived from the root for &quot;glow&quot; ([h₂eHs-][7]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The concept of return is a major part of Astraea's story, marking the beginning of a new golden age [Astronomica 2.25], which is a rebirth and consistent with the   This is quite consistent with the [vernal][8] domain of Ostara... &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Gods_(TV_series)#Episodes&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%92ostre&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://earthandstarryheaven.com/2015/04/01/astraea/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astraea_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82ews-&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82st%E1%B8%97r&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82eHs-&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=vernal" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10987" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2694" RevisionGUID="0fb11fb1-b77a-435a-9898-f74ea39b16d2" CreationDate="2017-06-24T04:40:52.503" UserId="2892" Text="Is Ostara related to Astraea?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10988" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2694" RevisionGUID="0fb11fb1-b77a-435a-9898-f74ea39b16d2" CreationDate="2017-06-24T04:40:52.503" UserId="2892" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10989" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2250" RevisionGUID="0096788d-8885-412e-b7de-bace494ae135" CreationDate="2017-06-24T21:22:28.870" UserId="2708" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="From [page 284 of volume 2, part 1 of the mentioned book][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Snippet from the book][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately, there's not a lot in there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A quick and rough translation (sorry in case I missed any unique English name used for these):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Iudaios** (Ioudaios), **1)** Son of Typhon, brother of Hierosolymos, after which the Jews are named, *Plut. Is. et Osir. **31.*** -- **2)** One of the Spartoi, otherwise called Udaios (q. v.) and said to have given Judea its name (Steph. Byz. q. v. Ioudaia); q.v. *Meineke* spelling him Oudaios. [Höfer]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So I don't think he's actually supposed to be a god (based on this text). I couldn't find any real reference to &quot;Hierosolymos&quot;, but this might actually be &quot;Hierosolymus&quot; as well. Not that I'd have any more luck with that, but maybe this could help someone else who's more versed regarding Greek mythology. Also note that there's actually a [Wikipedia entry on the alternative spelling &quot;Ioudaios&quot;][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]:https://archive.org/stream/ausfhrlicheslexi21rosc#page/284/mode/2up&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/IhVMP.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioudaios" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10991" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2695" RevisionGUID="2e0d32de-a2cd-48a7-9163-c789f686d6dc" CreationDate="2017-06-27T04:39:35.163" UserId="3944" Text="I have heard that Athena was born out of thoughts, sprang from Zeus' head. In that case, does this mean Athena is a manifestation of Zeus' intelligence?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10992" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2695" RevisionGUID="2e0d32de-a2cd-48a7-9163-c789f686d6dc" CreationDate="2017-06-27T04:39:35.163" UserId="3944" Text="If Athena was born from Zeus' brain, does this mean Athena is a manifestation of Zeus' intelligence?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10993" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2695" RevisionGUID="2e0d32de-a2cd-48a7-9163-c789f686d6dc" CreationDate="2017-06-27T04:39:35.163" UserId="3944" Text="|greek|zeus|athena|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10996" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2696" RevisionGUID="3881f138-20b2-4183-9f0c-047370fab9ee" CreationDate="2017-06-27T15:32:36.953" UserId="3944" Text="I am not sure whether to believe in Greek mythology or not, but I certainly don't want to spend my afterlife as a ghost, so I'm thinking of keeping a silver coin to pay that ol' Charon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But what kind of silver coin would he demand? Would any silver coin do, or anything in particular? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10997" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2696" RevisionGUID="3881f138-20b2-4183-9f0c-047370fab9ee" CreationDate="2017-06-27T15:32:36.953" UserId="3944" Text="What is the exact type of coin that Charon accepts for a ferry to the Underworld?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10998" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2696" RevisionGUID="3881f138-20b2-4183-9f0c-047370fab9ee" CreationDate="2017-06-27T15:32:36.953" UserId="3944" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="10999" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2697" RevisionGUID="18d74c40-a639-4905-ad2e-35cd8c8ed3de" CreationDate="2017-06-27T16:27:12.467" UserId="967" Text="A [danake/obol][1] it seems to [be][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Suidas s.v. Akherousia :* &lt;br&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Akherousia (Acherusia) : A lake in Haides, which the dying cross over, giving to the ferryman [Kharon (Charon)] the coin which is called a **danake**.&quot; (emphasis mine)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Callimachus, Hecale Fragment 31 (from Etymologicum Graecum s.v. Danakes) :* &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;**Danakes** (Danaces) : a barbarous coin more than an obol, which used to be put in the mouth of the dead.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Danake also can mean the silver coin of the Persian empire, so this could be the danake of the sources.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![danake][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other choice, the Greek Obol.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**Aristophanes, Frogs 180 ff (trans. O'Neill) (Greek comedy C5th to 4th B.C.) :**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Herakles : An ancient mariner [Kharon (Charon)] will row you over in a wee boat, so big. The fare's two obols.  &#xD;&#xA;Dionysos : Fie! The power two obols have, the whole world through! How came they thither!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![obol][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are some websites that may imply any old silver coin, but I could find any sources on that.&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danake&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Kharon.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/UXRY1.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/iilA9.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11001" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2698" RevisionGUID="cdf2219d-c0c2-4e54-9256-48f01e53d8f0" CreationDate="2017-06-27T22:59:57.233" UserId="2892" Text="Yes and no.  It depends on how you look at it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Athena is Zeus' favorite.  She is a &quot;daddy's girl&quot; for sure, siding with the father over the mother in [the trial of Orestes][1].  (Sort of like a certain scheming President and a certain daughter.)  He gives her the [aegis][2] to make sure she is protected in battle, and the term &quot;aegis&quot; is still used to connote a form patronage or protection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this light, her wisdom, and her springing fully formed from the head of &quot;scheming Zeus&quot;, can be seen as manifestations of Zeus' intellect.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By contrast, [Zeus swallowed Metis to eliminate the threat of being overthrown by his own offspring][3], presumably wiser than himself, and in that context the story may be read as Zeus transforming Metis' wisdom into a governable form, so that it may not be used against him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oresteia#The_Eumenides&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegis&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metis_(mythology)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11002" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2699" RevisionGUID="fe754a69-adb6-4179-883c-94ce6e833bd7" CreationDate="2017-06-27T23:09:04.673" UserId="292" Text="Ostara is a goddess of Easter (or, if you accept [Philip Shaw][1]'s ideas, the eastern territory or the eastern people). Astraea is a goddess of justice and embodies a sort of hope that someday goodness will return to the world.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;So I don't think they're directly related, but I find your idea that they both relate to a Indo-European idea of light intriguing, and I will add a something of my own: maybe both goddesses are related to the idea of hope and light in darkness, or light returning after darkness.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;Obviously, both of us are speculating, but I think your final idea that both represent a return of light, or goodness, to the world is probably the connecting factor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://witchesandpagans.com/pagan-culture-blogs/paganistan/easter-is-risen-philip-a-shaw-s-pagan-goddesses-in-the-early-germanic-world.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11003" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2694" RevisionGUID="4ac2efc7-e27b-45a9-a3f9-68117ca032d3" CreationDate="2017-06-27T23:12:47.027" UserId="2892" Comment="correct a typo" Text="I was watching the finale of American Gods (&quot;[Come to Jesus][1]&quot;), which centered on the goddess [Ostara][2], and I was also just reading this interesting little article on [Astraea][3], and I thought, the two names sound sort of similar...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ostara is associated with the Spring, and this presents some obvious problems if we relate [Astrea][4] to Virgo, and the etymology of Ostara seems to be &quot;dawn&quot; as opposed to &quot;starry&quot;, but Ostara is related to the PIE root for &quot;shine&quot; ([h₂ews-][5]), which is close to the PIE root for &quot;star&quot; ([h₂stḗr][6]), itself derived from the root for &quot;glow&quot; ([h₂eHs-][7]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The concept of return is a major part of Astraea's story, marking the beginning of a new golden age [Astronomica 2.25], which is a rebirth and consistent in that sense with the [vernal][8] domain of Ostara... &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Gods_(TV_series)#Episodes&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%92ostre&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://earthandstarryheaven.com/2015/04/01/astraea/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astraea_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82ews-&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82st%E1%B8%97r&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%82eHs-&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=vernal" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11004" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2700" RevisionGUID="657e460d-7c6a-4a41-90d4-1e1e96393164" CreationDate="2017-06-27T23:22:40.040" UserId="292" Text="The Metis story is interesting because [according to the prophecy][1] Metis would have two children - Athena and then a son who would ovethrow Zeus. This would have represented a triumph for the Titans, including Metis, over Zeus and his Olympians. So Zeus prevented this next generation from being born by swallowing Metis whole, thus absorbing her wisdom as well.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;So we have to assume that Athena has the prudence and forethought of her mother, and the cunning of her father. (Metis had cunning too, as she came up with the plan to free the Olympians by making Kronos vomit them up.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanisMetis.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11010" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="2461" RevisionGUID="4b2e3fbd-7cf8-4e70-bb44-2666f200a95e" CreationDate="2017-06-28T02:04:16.540" UserId="57" Comment="48" />
  <row Id="11011" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2691" RevisionGUID="75346c96-5d41-4768-b285-563b1cc84b5f" CreationDate="2017-06-28T05:53:08.933" UserId="2682" Comment="added a detail" Text="**Gaia, the personification and goddess of the Earth, was the first to foretell the future at Delphi, long before the birth of her great-grandson Apollon** [Apollo]. **She is also said to have been the first divinity to have a priestess serving as her spokesperson at this location.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the 100s AD, a writer named Pausanias went on a tour of Greece and collected information from all over the country into a 10-book travelogue entitled *Hellados Periegesis*, the “Description of Hellas [Greece].” From his travel through the region of Phokis and the neighbourhood of the Parnassos Glen, he gathered five different mainstream versions of the story about the origin of the oracle and temple of the city of Delphi, some of them differing on very minor points from others. These five accounts are listed below, referencing the information provided in [the last book of the *Periegesis*](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Pausanias10A.html#5).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going by chronological sequence, **the first explicit prophecy delivered at Delphi was a lyrical poem sang by Phemonoe, the first priestess of Apollon at Delphi.** (See #4, below, for further detail.) But there are references to earlier utterances being issued, with no mention, however, of what their content was. (This likewise is further elaborated below, *passim*.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The first explicit consultation of this oracle, chronologically, occurs before Apollon’s first arrival at Delphi, immediately after the Flood, when Deukalion** [Deucalion] **and Pyrrha come to the shrine.** (See #2 for more on this.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**1.	*The oracle was owned by Gaia, who appointed a local Oreiad (mountain-nymph) named Daphnis as her prophetess.*** (Aaron Atsma, of [The Theoi Project website](http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheDaphnis.html), speculates that Daphnis was Gaia’s daughter.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later on, at the end of this chapter (after listing the other four versions of the oracle’s origin), Pausanias says that, going by poetic tradition, Gaia had also appointed her offspring, the dragon Python, as the guardian of the oracle. After Apollon showed up and killed Python, the oracle was named after it Pythia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;**2.	*The oracle was owned by Gaia and Poseidon in common. Gaia uttered oracles herself while Poseidon had appointed Pyrkon as his mouthpiece.*** Pausanias mentions nothing further to explain who or what Pyrkon was, but in the commentary of his own [1898 translation of the *Description of Greece*](https://books.google.com/books?id=uqUNAAAAIAAJ&amp;pg=PA236#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false)&lt;sup&gt;✭&lt;/sup&gt;, Sir James George Frazer points out that, according to Hesychius, “At Delphi there were priests called *pyrkooi* (πυρκόοι) who divined by means of omens drawn from burnt sacrifice.” Citing Pausanias’ later mention of Poseidon’s altar in the temple of Apollon at Delphi, Frazer goes on to speculate that the *pyrkooi* may have served at this altar, perhaps tracing themselves back to this otherwise unattested Pyrkon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To me *Pyrkon* looks suspiciously similar to *Python*, and perhaps it is possible that this is a typo on Pausanias’s part, or that this account preserves a version of the Delphic dragon legend in which the guardian monster’s name is Pyrkon rather than Python. Either way, if Pyrkon and Python are somehow the same entity, then in this tradition the creature is associated with Poseidon rather than Gaia. (The mythos of the Delphic dragon is, *per se*, [a mixed-up mass of conflicting traditions](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1251/why-is-echidna-at-arima/2050#2050), some of which hint at Greek dragon lore set in other parts of the world.)&lt;sup&gt;✭✭&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pausanias then quotes a poem entitled *Eumolpia*, the work of a certain Musaeus son of Antiophemus, which says that Gaia gave her share of the shrine to her daughter Themis, who later bequeathed it to Apollon. As for Poseidon, he traded his part of the shrine with Apollon in exchange for the island of Kalaureia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the middle of this chapter Pausanias also says that Poseidon’s son Parnassos was the first person to build a city in this region. From him, Parnassos, the famous mountain upon which Delphi was built, derived its name. Parnassos was also the first to use the flights of birds as a soothsaying device.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One century before Pausanias, the Roman poet Ovid followed this tradition in his *Metamorphoses*, wherein Deukalion and Pyrrha survive the Flood by sheltering themselves in a wooden chest which floats on the flood-waters and eventually, at the end of the cataclysm, settles into the groove between the twin peaks of Mt Parnassos. The two survivor spouses then walk down the mountain to find upon its slopes the shrine of Themis, who happens to be their grandmother (Deukalion’s father Prometheus and Pyrrha’s father Epimetheus are Themis’s sons), in order to inquire of her how they might repeople the Earth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going by the narrative chronology of the myths of Greece and Rome, **this would be the first reference, in the timeline, to someone explicitly consulting the oracle at Delphi** (rather than the prophecies simply being issued in song [spontaneously rather than upon request, so it would seem]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his play *Eumenides*, the Greek tragedian Aeschylus (roughly four centuries prior to Ovid) portrays Gaia as the first deity to give oracles at Delphi. In *Prometheus Bound*, another play of Aeschylus, the Titan Prometheus says that his mother, who would frequently reveal the future to him, has many names, two of which are Themis and Gaia. This could provide a way to combine this version with #1, in which there is no mention of Themis: there would not need to be such a mention if she is actually just a form of Gaia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover in *Eumenides*, there is an owner of the oracle in between Themis and Apollon. Themis gives her share of the oracle to her sister Phoibe [Phoebe], who then gives it as a birthday present to her grandson Apollon, who is also named Phoibos [Phoebus] in her honour.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are yet two more variants of this tradition, as pointed out by Frazer:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to Euripides (*Iphig. in Taur.* 1259 *sqq.*) Apollo&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dismissed Themis and took her place at the oracle; but Earth, to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; avenge the wrong done her daughter, sent dreams which disturbed and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; confused the persons who consulted the oracle, till Zeus, at the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; entreaty of Apollo, compelled her to desist. Some thought that Apollo&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and Themis had founded the oracle jointly (Strabo, ix. p. 422).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whatever the case, Deukalion and Pyrrha arrived at Delphi during Themis’s tenure thereat, and if this goddess was operating in conjunction with any other deity at the time, nonetheless she specifically is the one who was consulted, probably on account of the couple’s strong familial connection with her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Deukalion and Pyrrha had a daughter named Melantho, who was violated by Poseidon. She bore the sea-god a son named Delphos who, when he had grown up, built the city of Delphi, to which he gave his name. In *Eumenides*, Apollon first arrives at Delphi while Delphos is ruling the city. Going by most other accounts, Delphos is a son of Apollon by a different woman.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;✭ Pausanias's *Description of Greece* Translated with a Commentary by J.G. Frazer, in Six Volumes.   &#xD;&#xA;1898. MacMillan &amp; Co. Ltd, London (UK) and The MacMillan Comapny, New York (USA).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;✭✭DukeZhou [a fellow Mythology StackExchange user] has pointed out to me that Pyrkon's name could possibly be translated &quot;Fire-Cone,&quot; from *pŷr*, &quot;fire&quot; + *kônos*, &quot;[pine-]cone,&quot; which could have some potentially interesting implications as the designation of a prophet or priest (who might also perhaps be a terrifying dragon).&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**3.	*Shepherds feeding their flocks** (consisting primarily of goats, it seems) **inhaled the subterraneous vapour at the site and began to prophesy the words of Apollon.*** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A variant version of this tradition, however, has it that it is *the goats* that were being herded which, technically, were the first prophets here (not of Apollon but of the more ancient Gaia), as Frazer further elaborates:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The story of the discovery of the Delphic oracle, as told by Diodorus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (xvi. 26), is this. On the spot afterwards occupied by the inmost&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shrine (*adytum*) of the sanctuary there was a chasm in the ground. A&#xD;&#xA;&gt; flock of goats was browsing near the chasm, and each goat as it&#xD;&#xA;&gt; approached the chasm began to skip and utter unwonted sounds. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; goatherd, observing this with surprise, went up to the hole, was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; affected in the same way as his goats, and began to prophesy. The fame&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of this was spread abroad, many people came to the chasm and fell into&#xD;&#xA;&gt; prophetic ecstasy. So the place was deemed an oracle of Earth. At last&#xD;&#xA;&gt; when many persons, in the height of their frenzy, had leaped into the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hole and disappeared, the neighbours resolved to appoint one woman to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the office of prophetess, and in order that she might receive the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; prophetic influence and give the oracles in safety, they devised a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; three-legged machine or tripod, which she mounted when she was about&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to prophesy. The oracular chasm is described by Strabo (ix. p. 419) as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; follows: “They say that the oracle is a perpendicular cavern, not very&#xD;&#xA;&gt; broad at the mouth, and that an inspiring air is wafted up from it,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and that over the mouth of it stands a high tripod, which the Pythian&#xD;&#xA;&gt; priestess mounts and receiving the air utters the oracles, some in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; verse and some in prose, and the prose oracles are put into verse by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; poets employed in the service of the sanctuary.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A connection between this and the island of Crete occurs at the end of the same paragraph of Frazer’s commentary: “According to Plutarch (*De defectu oraculorum*, 42 and 46) the name of the man who first discovered the inspiring influence of the cavern by falling into it was Coretas. Some have taken the name Coretas to be etymologically connected with *Curetes* and *Crete* and hence have regarded it as a confirmation of the legend that the Delphic oracle was of Cretan origin.” He goes on:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Before the priestess descended into the cavern, omens were taken from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; goats. Cold water was poured on the goat’s head, and if the animal&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shivered and shook in all its limbs, the omen was good, the goat was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sacrificed, and the priestess descended into the cave. But if the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; goat, when drenched with the water, stood motionless or only shook its&#xD;&#xA;&gt; head, the omen was unfavourable, and the priestess did not go down.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The origin of this custom was explained by the story that the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; inspiring influences which emanated from the cave had first been&#xD;&#xA;&gt; experienced by goats. See Plutarch, *De defectu oraculorum*, 46, 49,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and 51; Diodorus, xvi. 26.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**4.	*Phemonoe was the first prophetess of Apollon, and sang in hexameter verse.* This,** says Pausanias here, **is the most prevalent view.** The *Periegesis* implies that the first oracle sang by Phemonoe was a prophecy about the arrival of Apollon at Delphi and the destruction of Python upon that advent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Phemonoe was a daughter of Apollon or of Delphos the founder of Delphi (in the latter of which instances she was a granddaughter of either Apollon or Poseidon). Her mother Kastalia, a daughter of the River Akhelous, transformed into a spring of water at the foot of Mt Parnassos in order to escape the advances of Apollon. Pausanias says that, in conjunction with an adjoining spring, the waters of Kastalia are what inspired the local prophetesses of Apollon with their oracular powers. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**5.	*According to the Delphian poetess Boio** [Boeo], says Pausanias, **the shrine of Apollon at Delphi was built by a group of Hyperboreans led by Olen, Pagasos and Agyieos. Olen was the first prophet of Apollon, chanting the hexameter oracles.*** The *Hellados Periegesis* 10.5.8 qualifies this with the disclaimer that &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tradition, however, reports no other man as prophet, but makes mention&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of prophetesses only.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11014" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2698" RevisionGUID="56ac6994-79cf-4400-8bcc-5d94e9f2f7ac" CreationDate="2017-06-28T10:16:59.357" UserId="201" Comment="Removed reference because Zeus and Athena deserve better than that" Text="Yes and no.  It depends on how you look at it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Athena is Zeus' favorite.  She is a &quot;daddy's girl&quot; for sure, siding with the father over the mother in [the trial of Orestes][1]. He gives her the [aegis][2] to make sure she is protected in battle, and the term &quot;aegis&quot; is still used to connote a form patronage or protection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this light, her wisdom, and her springing fully formed from the head of &quot;scheming Zeus&quot;, can be seen as manifestations of Zeus' intellect.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By contrast, [Zeus swallowed Metis to eliminate the threat of being overthrown by his own offspring][3], presumably wiser than himself, and in that context the story may be read as Zeus transforming Metis' wisdom into a governable form, so that it may not be used against him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oresteia#The_Eumenides&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegis&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metis_(mythology)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11015" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2702" RevisionGUID="119c8f44-1da8-429a-a8c3-118f6f7eaf97" CreationDate="2017-06-28T17:28:01.917" UserId="57" Text="The second season of the television series [Fortitude][1] revolves around a presumably Sami&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; legend of a murderous Shaman. The legend is described in episode 6:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;! There's a legend among the people here that every few generations, the gods send down a plague to remind everyone of their power. And after the plague, a sort of demon rises up, the chosen one, and he can only be defeated by a powerful magic, and for that the Shaman needs certain body parts. And that's what I think is happening here - the husky, the heads, the heart. Someone is collecting body parts because they think there is a monster here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is this based on an actual Sami story or stories? And if yes, do we know where I can find a fuller version of it?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; I'm assuming a Sami origin because the Sami people are mentioned numerous times in the show, and the location of the fictional settlement of Fortitude is in Arctic Norway.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3498622/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11016" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2702" RevisionGUID="119c8f44-1da8-429a-a8c3-118f6f7eaf97" CreationDate="2017-06-28T17:28:01.917" UserId="57" Text="Is there a Sami legend of a Shaman using human body parts to ward off demons?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11017" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2702" RevisionGUID="119c8f44-1da8-429a-a8c3-118f6f7eaf97" CreationDate="2017-06-28T17:28:01.917" UserId="57" Text="|myth-identification|sami|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11018" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2702" RevisionGUID="977323c8-4f36-4eb1-8213-7839cc67289d" CreationDate="2017-06-28T17:33:38.273" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="The second season of the television series [Fortitude][1] revolves around a presumably Sami&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; legend of a murderous Shaman. The legend is described in episode 6:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There's a legend among the people here that every few generations, the gods send down a plague to remind everyone of their power. And after the plague, a sort of demon rises up, the chosen one, and he can only be defeated by a powerful magic, and for that the Shaman needs certain body parts. And that's what I think is happening here - the husky, the heads, the heart. Someone is collecting body parts because they think there is a monster here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is this based on an actual Sami story or stories? And if yes, do we know where I can find a fuller version of it?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; I'm assuming a Sami origin because the Sami people are mentioned numerous times in the show, and the location of the fictional settlement of Fortitude is in Arctic Norway.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3498622/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11019" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2703" RevisionGUID="2116daed-9422-4dd7-85eb-3ff6b4f804be" CreationDate="2017-06-29T01:56:06.727" UserId="3950" Text="I can find a few references here and there to it being a chariot or something, but I don't just want to take any old lackey on the Internet's word for it. What exactly did they think it _was?_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;a href=&quot;https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/129/what-exactly-did-apollo-do-with-respect-to-the-sun&quot;&gt;This&lt;/a&gt; probably comes closest but Helios seems to be more on the Greek side and &lt;a href=&quot;https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1683/was-apollo-the-sun-god-in-augustan-rome/1685#1685&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt; is an often-cited thread on Apollo, but neither specifically answers my question :P" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11020" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2703" RevisionGUID="2116daed-9422-4dd7-85eb-3ff6b4f804be" CreationDate="2017-06-29T01:56:06.727" UserId="3950" Text="Roman - exactly what did they think the Sun was?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11021" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2703" RevisionGUID="2116daed-9422-4dd7-85eb-3ff6b4f804be" CreationDate="2017-06-29T01:56:06.727" UserId="3950" Text="|roman|sun|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11022" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2704" RevisionGUID="6f10f535-2bf4-46ca-8de1-4ea5420aa9a9" CreationDate="2017-06-29T02:29:51.250" UserId="967" Text="#A [quadriga][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Pseudo-Hyginus, Astronomica 2. 13 (trans. Grant) (Roman mythographer C2nd A.D.) :*&#xD;&#xA;Sol [was the] first among the gods made use of the **quadriga** [4 horsed chariot].&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Wikipedia][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;A quadriga (Latin quadri-, four, and iugum, yoke) is a car or chariot drawn by four horses abreast (the Roman Empire's equivalent of Ancient Greek tethrippon):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and you see in this image, it is most definitely a chariot.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![quadriga][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ok, it was a chariot. Where's all that light and heat coming from?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He seems to have some sort of diadem, helmet, or whatever. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Valerius Flaccus, Argonautica 4. 90 ff (trans. Mozley) (Roman epic C1st A.D.) :*  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Sol [Helios the Sun] puts on his diadem of **myriad** rays and the corselet woven of twelve stars [the zodiac constellations] and bound by the belt which athwart the rain-clouds shows for men its many hued bow.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Nonnus, Dionysiaca 38. 90 ff (trans. Rouse) (Greek epic C5th A.D.)* :  &#xD;&#xA;&quot;He [Helios] placed the **golden helmet [of the Sun]** on Phaethon's head and crowned him with his own fire, winding the seven rays like strings upon his hair, and put the white kilt girdlewise round him over his loins; he clothed him in his own fiery robe and laced his foot into the purple boot, and gave his chariot to his son.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can also see the diadem in the mosaic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Helios.html#Chariot&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadriga&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/TPRAt.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11023" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2705" RevisionGUID="6592a393-f1f7-4221-8ba9-08d350b7b0fd" CreationDate="2017-06-29T03:45:49.220" UserId="3944" Text="Hera received a golden apple tree as a gift from Gaia. She planted it near the place Atlas was imprisoned, and employed a dragon named Ladon, and Atlas' daughters, the Hesperides, to guard it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have heard about a legend where Atlas refused to let Perseus rest near the apple tree, for the fear of the apples being stolen.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But why does Atlas care? Those are Hera's apples, not his. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11024" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2705" RevisionGUID="6592a393-f1f7-4221-8ba9-08d350b7b0fd" CreationDate="2017-06-29T03:45:49.220" UserId="3944" Text="Why does Atlas care about the golden apples?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11025" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2705" RevisionGUID="6592a393-f1f7-4221-8ba9-08d350b7b0fd" CreationDate="2017-06-29T03:45:49.220" UserId="3944" Text="|greek|titans|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11026" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2706" RevisionGUID="1c78318e-f45d-4f0d-8bd7-ff7fbde354ae" CreationDate="2017-06-29T04:58:22.520" UserId="57" Text="The Atlas and Perseus story is a late variation of the myth of the Garden of the Hesperides that appears in Book 4 of Ovid's Metamorphoses. In this version, the garden and its golden apples belong to Atlas, not Hera (who isn't involved at all).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story is built around a prophecy that a son of Zeus will steal the golden apples. This was not Perseus' intention, the hero was only looking for a place to rest. However, when Perseus identified himself as a son of Zeus Atlas naturally assumed that he was there to fulfil the prophecy. Perseus was left with no other option than to turn Atlas to stone by using Medusa's head.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11027" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2706" RevisionGUID="eff90821-8856-46bc-a587-87a22042b6c1" CreationDate="2017-06-29T05:04:07.407" UserId="57" Comment="added 133 characters in body" Text="It's not uncommon for Greek myths to have several variations, and it's not always possible to reconcile different versions of a myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Atlas and Perseus story is a late variation of the myth of the Garden of the Hesperides that appears in Book 4 of Ovid's *Metamorphoses*. In this version, the garden and its golden apples belong to Atlas, not Hera (who isn't involved at all). Another notable difference in Ovid's telling is that Atlas is a giant, not a Titan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story is built around a prophecy that a son of Zeus will steal the golden apples and with them the giant's glory. This was not Perseus' intention, the hero was only looking for a place to rest. However, when Perseus identified himself as a son of Zeus Atlas naturally assumed that he was there to fulfil the prophecy. Perseus was left with no other option than to turn Atlas to stone by using Medusa's head." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11028" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2707" RevisionGUID="7373276b-426b-48ee-bde2-0767f3065e00" CreationDate="2017-06-29T16:36:21.510" UserId="3952" Text="According to [wikipedia,][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Garden of the Hesperides is Hera's orchard in the west, where either a single apple tree or a grove grows, producing golden apples that grant immortality when eaten.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That is, the golden apples of the hesperides grant immortality to the one who eats them, or at the least are somehow related to immortality. This is particularly interesting if true, because I recall some norse myth about stealing apples that grant immortality to the gods. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In any case, the problem is that wikipedia mentions absolutely no source for the relation of the apples to immortality. Some other sites mention they grant immortality, as well, but they too mention no source and seem to copy from wikipedia. Now I have found zero evidence for a relation between the apples and immortality in ancient sources, and have looked in all the sources that [theoi][2] mentions regarding the apples. So my question, does anyone know about an ancient source that mentions the apples grnat immortality? If not, it seems someone may have mistakenly thought about the norse apples when he wrote the wikipedia page.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesperides&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Hesperides.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11029" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2707" RevisionGUID="7373276b-426b-48ee-bde2-0767f3065e00" CreationDate="2017-06-29T16:36:21.510" UserId="3952" Text="Do the apples of the hesperides grant immortality?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11030" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2707" RevisionGUID="7373276b-426b-48ee-bde2-0767f3065e00" CreationDate="2017-06-29T16:36:21.510" UserId="3952" Text="|greek|hercules|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11031" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2707" RevisionGUID="5ecefa8f-a44a-40b7-99e0-4a62ef09415c" CreationDate="2017-06-29T17:08:34.773" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11032" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2707" RevisionGUID="5c8b1520-0903-4708-bdd3-a478c7c8aac5" CreationDate="2017-06-29T17:16:40.727" UserId="3952" Comment="edited body" Text="According to [wikipedia,][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Garden of the Hesperides is Hera's orchard in the west, where either a single apple tree or a grove grows, producing golden apples that grant immortality when eaten.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That is, the golden apples of the hesperides grant immortality to the one who eats them, or at the least are somehow related to immortality. This is particularly interesting if true, because I recall some norse myth about stealing apples that grant immortality to the gods. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In any case, the problem is that wikipedia mentions absolutely no source for the relation of the apples to immortality. Some other sites mention they grant immortality, as well, but they too mention no source and seem to copy from wikipedia. Now I have found zero evidence for a relation between the apples and immortality in ancient sources, and have looked in all the sources that [theoi][2] mentions regarding the apples. So my question, does anyone know about an ancient source that mentions the apples grant immortality? If not, it seems someone may have mistakenly thought about the norse apples when he wrote the wikipedia page.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesperides&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Hesperides.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11033" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2494" RevisionGUID="d6f6ba16-9ead-413f-8f46-bcb6509b61b7" CreationDate="2017-06-29T18:45:05.123" UserId="2892" Comment="clarified slightly" Text="This has been driving me absolutely nuts, as it is universally referenced across the internet, but nowhere cited.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------&#xD;&#xA;*It looks like Theoi originally grabbed it from Encyclopedia Britannica, not strictly a scholarly source (although I have no doubt the authors of the Britannica knew their classics;) back when Theoi still had a Cadmus page.  Even more frustratingly, I found an actual book on mythology that references the dead Theoi page from an internet archive.  But Theoi didn't provide an attribution either.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11037" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2707" RevisionGUID="d26202ff-9340-4476-a48e-e5f2677b6a33" CreationDate="2017-06-30T04:06:08.450" UserId="57" Comment="added 1 character in body; edited title" Text="According to [Wikipedia][1],&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Garden of the Hesperides is Hera's orchard in the west, where either a single apple tree or a grove grows, producing golden apples that grant immortality when eaten.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That is, the golden apples of the Hesperides grant immortality to the one who eats them, or at the least are somehow related to immortality. This is particularly interesting if true because I recall some Norse myth about stealing apples that grant immortality to the gods. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In any case, the problem is that Wikipedia mentions absolutely no source for the relation of the apples to immortality. Some other sites mention they grant immortality, as well, but they too mention no source and seem to copy from Wikipedia. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now I have found zero evidence for a relation between the apples and immortality in ancient sources, and have looked in all the sources that [theoi][2] mentions regarding the apples. So my question, does anyone know about an ancient source that mentions the apples grant immortality? If not, it seems someone may have mistakenly thought about the Norse apples when he wrote the Wikipedia page.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesperides&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Hesperides.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11038" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2707" RevisionGUID="d26202ff-9340-4476-a48e-e5f2677b6a33" CreationDate="2017-06-30T04:06:08.450" UserId="57" Comment="added 1 character in body; edited title" Text="Do the apples of the Hesperides grant immortality?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11039" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2709" RevisionGUID="c7a498d7-4124-471d-be46-d5db6ad317fe" CreationDate="2017-06-30T05:29:28.467" UserId="57" Text="I could not find a single source mentioning that eating the golden apples of the Hesperides would grant immortality. I'd expect at least one of the mortal visitors to the garden to try and take a bite if that was the case. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I widened the parameters a bit and looked for references to [ambrosia][1], the actual immortality granting mechanism of Greek mythology. This is the single mention I found: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And to the apple-bearing strand of those minstrels in the west then would come, where ocean's lord no more to sailors grants passage o'er the deep dark main, finding there the heaven's holy bound, upheld by Atlas, where water from ambrosial founts wells up beside the couch of Zeus inside his halls, and holy earth, the bounteous mother, causes joy to spring in heavenly breasts. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Euripides, Hippolytus. Translated by E. P. Coleridge&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The detail of the ambrosia flowing streams in the garden does not appear to be significant to the story, as, again, none of the mortal visitors tries to take advantage of it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrosia" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11040" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2710" RevisionGUID="be3136b0-d0a1-4b9a-9809-35d28b57bad5" CreationDate="2017-06-30T13:46:34.613" UserId="2682" Text="It is quite well attested anciently. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is **Book 9 Chapter 12 of Pausanias' *Description of Greece*** (which you have already noted in your own Answer). Roughly contemporaneous with Pausanias is **Apollodorus' *Bibliotheka* 3.4.1**:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;When Telephassa died, Cadmus buried her, and after being&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hospitably received by the Thracians he came to Delphi to inquire&#xD;&#xA;&gt; about Europa. The god told him not to trouble about Europa, but to be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; guided by a cow, and to found a city wherever she should fall down for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; weariness. After receiving such an oracle he journeyed through Phocis;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; then falling in with a cow among the herds of Pelagon, he followed it&#xD;&#xA;&gt; behind. And after traversing Boeotia, it sank down where is now the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; city of Thebes. Wishing to sacrifice the cow to Athena, he sent some&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of his companions to draw water from the spring of Ares. But a dragon,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which some said was the offspring of Ares, guarded the spring and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; destroyed most of those that were sent. In his indignation Cadmus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; killed the dragon, and by the advice of Athena sowed its teeth. When&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they were sown there rose from the ground armed men whom they called&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sparti. These slew each other, some in a chance brawl, and some in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ignorance. But Pherecydes says that when Cadmus saw armed men growing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; up out of the ground, he flung stones at them, and they, supposing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that they were being pelted by each other, came to blows. However,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; five of them survived, Echion, Udaeus, Chthonius, Hyperenor, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pelorus.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That is from [James George Frazer's 1921 translation of the text](https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.236032/2015.236032.Apollodorusvol1#page/n369/mode/2up), one of whose footnotes on this passage also points out that the visit is mentioned in the **scholion on Homer's *Iliad* 2.494** as well as the one **on Aeschylus' *Seven Against Thebes* 486**. This footnote also says that &quot;The Scholiast on Homer (*l.c.*) agrees almost verbally with Apollodorus, and cites as his authorities the ***Boeotica* of Hellanicus** and the third book of Apollodorus. Hence we may suppose that in this narrative Apollodorus followed Hellanicus&quot; [*emphasis added*].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Fast-rewinding to about a century and a half prior to Pausanias and the *Bibliotheka*, the Roman writers Hyginus and Ovid each make mention of this story. **Hyginus' *Fabulae* 178** (in [Mary Grant's 1960 translation](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusFabulae4.html#178)) says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Europa was the daughter of Argiope and Agenor, a Sidonian.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jupiter, changing his form to that of a bull, carried her from Sidon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to Crete, and begat by her Minos, Sarpedon, and Rhadamanthus. Her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; father Agenor sent his sons to bring their sister back, or else not to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; return to his sight. Phoenix set out for Africa, and there remained.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; From this the Africans are called Phoenicians. Cilix from his own name&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gave the name to Cilicia. Cadmus in his wanderings came to Delphi.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There the oracle told him to buy from farmers an ox which had a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; moon-shaped mark on its side, and to drive it before him. Where it lay&#xD;&#xA;&gt; down it was fated that he found a town and rule. When Cadmus heard the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; oracle, he did as he was told. While seeking water he came to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fountain of Castalia, which a dragon, the offspring of Mars, was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; guarding. It killed the comrades of Cadmus, but was killed by Cadmus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with a stone. Under Minerva’s instructions he sowed the teeth and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ploughed them under. From them sprang the Sparti. These fought&#xD;&#xA;&gt; themselves, but from them five survived, namely, Chthonius, Udaeus,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hyperenor, Pelorus, and Echion. Moreover, Boeotia was named from the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ox Cadmus followed.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In **Book 3 of the *Metamorphoses***, Ovid has his own narration of the story, although therein he never mentions the word Delphi. He refers to *Phoebique oracula*, &quot;the oracle of Phoebus&quot; (A.S. Kline's translation, as below, *interprets* it a step further, having &quot;Apollo's oracle&quot;), in Line 8, and &quot;Castalia's Grotto&quot; in Line 14.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;And now the god, dispensing with the deceptive image of the bull,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; confessed who he was, and made for the fields of Crete. Meanwhile&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Europa’s father, in ignorance of this, orders his son Cadmus to search&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for the stolen girl, and adds that exile is his punishment if he fails&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to find her, showing himself, by the same action, both pious and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; impious. Roaming the world (for who can discover whatever Jupiter has&#xD;&#xA;&gt; taken?) Agenor’s son, the fugitive, shuns his native land and his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; parent’s anger and as a suppliant consults Apollo’s oracle and asks in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; what land he might settle. Phoebus replies ‘A heifer will find you in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the fields, that has never submitted to the yoke and is unaccustomed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to the curved plough. Go where she leads, and where she finds rest on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the grass build the walls of Thebes, your city, and call the land&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Boeotia.’&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Cadmus had scarcely left the Castalian cave when he saw an&#xD;&#xA;&gt; unguarded heifer, moving slowly, and showing no mark of the yoke on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her neck. He follows close behind and chooses his steps by the traces&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of her course, and silently thanks Phoebus, his guide to the way. Now&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he had passed the fords of Cephisus and the fields of Panope: the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; heifer stopped, and lifting her beautiful head with its noble horns to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the sky stirred the air with her lowing. Then looking back, to see her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; companion following, she sank her hindquarters on the ground and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lowered her body onto the tender grass. Cadmus gave thanks, pressing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his lips to the foreign soil and welcoming the unknown hills and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fields.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Intending to offer a sacrifice to Jupiter, he ordered his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; attendants to go in search of water from a running stream for a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; libation. There was an ancient wood there, free from desecration, and,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in the centre of it, a chasm thick with bushes and willow branches,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; framed in effect by stones making a low arch, and rich with copious&#xD;&#xA;&gt; springs. There was a snake sacred to Mars concealed in this cave, with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a prominent golden crest. Fire flickered in its eyes, its whole body&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was swollen with venom, its three-forked tongue flickered, and its&#xD;&#xA;&gt; teeth were set in a triple row.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;After the people of Tyre, setting out, a fatal step, reached the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; grove, and let their pitchers down into the water, it gave out a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reverberation. The dark green snake thrust his head out of the deep&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cavern, hissing awesomely. The pitchers fell from their hands, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; blood left their bodies, and, terrified, a sudden tremor took&#xD;&#xA;&gt; possession of their limbs. The snake winds his scaly coils in restless&#xD;&#xA;&gt; writhings, and, shooting upwards, curves into a huge arc. With half&#xD;&#xA;&gt; its length raised into thin air, it peers down over the whole wood,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; its body as great, seen in its entirety, as that Dragon that separates&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the twin constellations of the Bear. Without pause he takes the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Phoenicians, whether they prepare to fight, run, or are held by fear&#xD;&#xA;&gt; itself. Some he slays with his bite, some he kills in his deep&#xD;&#xA;&gt; embraces, others with the corrupting putrefaction of his venomous&#xD;&#xA;&gt; breath.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[[3.1-49](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/Metamorph3.htm)]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to William Smith's 1888 Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology, the **scholion on Aristophanes' *Frogs* 1256** mentions the story, as does the one **on Euripides' *Phoinissai* 638**. Frazer mentions the latter of these two scholia in the above-mentioned footnote as well, saying that this scholion &quot;quotes the oracle at full length&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Early Greek Mythography Vol. 2: Commentary*, Robert Louis Fowler cites the 300s BC Athenian comic poet **Eubulus**, whose work currently survives only in fragments, as having said, in Fragment 33 (entitled *Europa*), that the Pythia instructed Cadmus to &quot;found a city of Boiotoi [Boeotians]&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;    " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11042" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2495" RevisionGUID="9030f649-8df5-4b52-9e81-713d36ab616d" CreationDate="2017-06-30T18:29:59.233" UserId="2892" Comment="edited slightly to allow accepting Adrinka's answer" Text="It's [Pausanias 9.12.1&amp;2][1] (the section on Boetia):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Thebans in ancient days used to sacrifice bulls to Apollo of the Ashes. Once when the festival was being held, the hour of the sacrifice was near but those sent to fetch the bull had not arrived. And so, as a wagon happened to be near by, they sacrificed to the god one of the oxen, and ever since it has been the custom to sacrifice working oxen. The following story also is current among the Thebans. As Cadmus was leaving Delphi by the road to Phocis, a cow, it is said, guided him on his way. This cow was one bought from the herdsmen of Pelagon, and on each of her sides was a white mark like the orb of a full moon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now the oracle of the god had said that Cadmus and the host with him were to make their dwelling where the cow was going to sink down in weariness. So this is one of the places that they point out. Here there is in the open an altar and an image of Athena, said to have been dedicated by Cadmus. Those who think that the Cadmus who came to the Theban land was an Egyptian, and not a Phoenician, have their opinion contradicted by the name of this Athena, because she is called by the Phoenician name of Onga, and not by the Egyptian name of Sais.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Perseus][1]&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interestingly, this section can be found on Theoi in the  W.H.S. Jones translation, although it was [Robert Graves][2]' [The Greek Myths][3] that guided me to the reference per his comprehensive and highly useful index.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0160%3Abook%3D9%3Achapter%3D12%3Asection%3D1&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Graves#Literary_career&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/820461.The_Greek_Myths" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11044" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2711" RevisionGUID="8d0bd1e2-71cc-4910-9742-8eb645c941e5" CreationDate="2017-07-02T12:00:59.297" UserId="2682" Text="An early theme in several mythologies, particularly on the land masses referred to, in English, as Europe, Asia and North America, is that of women giving birth to giants, usually humanoid ones. In the chronology of the myths themselves, these women often live in the time prior to the Flood which covered the entire earth at some point thousands of years ago (and sometimes even millennia prior to the time of the peoples telling these stories, as far as they could reckon).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`Disclaimer:` ***Divine [and Semidivine] Women*, Thus Technically Not Human**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pasiphae is one of a few female characters in Greek myth who are somewhat peculiar for the fact that they are actually immortal divine beings but who live among mortals as though they themselves are mortal, and they marry mortal kings, thus appearing to be human, even though they are not. Pasiphae's sister Kirke [Circe], a famous *Odyssey* character, is one such personage, who, according to one tradition, marries Telemakhos [Telemachus] son of Odysseus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pasiphae and Kirke are daughters of the sun-god Helios and the Oceanid Perseïs. In her book *Gender and Immortality*, Deborah Lyons notes the curious phenomenon in Greek mythology which has it so that some of the early female offspring of the gods (especially daughters of water deities like the rivers and the Oceanids) are immortal or at least semidivine (e.g. they become river-nymphs) while the early male offspring of these gods tend to be ordinary mortals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both Pasiphae and Kirke are born goddesses (albeit minor ones) while their brother Aietes [Aeetes] becomes the [evidently mortal] king of Colchis (where he becomes the keeper of the Golden Fleece before the Argonauts arrive in his country to claim it), even though they have the same mother and father. Aietes then goes on to marry his own aunt the Oceanid Eidyia. Of their children—a girl and a boy—the girl, Medeia, is sometimes described as having been born an immortal witch just like her aunts Pasiphae and Kirke, while the boy, Absyrtos, ends up dead just like any other mortal (having been slain by his own sister).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Before the Flood, a similar marriage like that of Aietes and Eidyia occurs between another Oceanid, Klymene, and King Merops of Ethiopia. Klymene marries Merops after having divorced Helios, who was married to her centuries before he was married to her sister Perseïs. Together, Helios and Klymene had had several daughters, all semidivine sun-nymphs, and a son Phaethon, who died taking his dad's car (the fiery Sun-chariot) out for a ride.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yet another Oceanid, Pleïone, marries the Titan Atlas and bears him numerous daughters and a son. Seven of the daughters are called the Pleïades, after their mother. The eldest of them, Maia, becomes the mother of the god Hermes. Among the younger ones, Merope and Sterope marry the mortal kings Sisyphos and Oinomaos respectively. (Like his male cousins, the son here, named Hyas, dies a violent death, killed by a wild animal.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All these [semi]divine women blur the distinction between the gods and humankind, bearing human children to their sometimes human, sometimes divine consorts, and often living as the unremarkable wives of their mortal husbands.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Pasiphae's (Older) Indian Equivalents***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A similar phenomenon occurs in ancient Indian mythology, wherein the earliest women are the daughters of the *ṛṣis* [*rishis*], male entities who are a class of being distinct from the gods and men, and yet are related to both, and in fact, in most versions of the cosmogony, are the ancestors of almost all the other beings in the universe, including gods and humans. It thus becomes difficult to classify these daughters, who themselves marry other *ṛṣis*, to whom they are related (usually their own uncles or nephews or such), and to whom they bear a mix of children who vary in nature. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The foremost these are the many daughters of the *ṛṣi* Dakṣā [Daksha]. Depending on which source is consulted there are sixty or a hundred of them who then get married off to a number of other *ṛṣis*. Kāśyapa [Kashyapa], a relative of Dakṣā, married at least ten of these daughters and from them were born some of the most powerful gods and various tribes of *āsuras* [the traditional enemies of the gods], as well as humankind, plants and animals. Even though both Dakṣā and Kāśyapa are counted among the Prajāpatis, &quot;Masters of Creation,&quot; entities who fashioned and organised the universe and its different lifeforms, they are sometimes depicted as ordinary human beings living on earth. This is especially the case with Kāśyapa and some of his wives.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Among the most notorious creatures classifiable as monsters in Indian mythology are the **Rākṣasas** [Rakshasas]. According to the Agni Purāṇa, the first of these were the thirty sons of Kāśyapa by his wife Muni, a daughter of Dakṣā. The Agni Purāṇa, however, was only composed sometime in the 600s AD. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is an older record of other monstrous children of Kāśyapa, these being the first one hundred **Dānavas**, the first **Daityas**, and the first one thousand **Kadraveyas**. The mothers of all these children were daughters of Dakṣā. The Dānavas and the Daityas were closely associated groups of huge beings quite similar to the Titans of Greek mythology. Their mothers were Danu and Diti respectively. The Kadraveyas were a tribe of snake-people, several of them being many-headed creatures, whose mother was called Kadrū. One famous son of Kadrū is the gigantic snake-man **Kāliya**, who is described as having either 110 or 1,000 hooded cobra-heads. He was confronted and defeated once by the demigod hero Kṛṣṇa [Krishna]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Dānavas, Daityas and Kadraveyas are mentioned, together with their parents, in the epic called the *Mahābhārata*. There are various dates posited for the composition of this literary work. On the later side we have the 900s BC—300s AD, although in Hindu tradition it was composed by one of the characters appearing in it, which characters are supposed to have lived potentially as long ago as the 5500s—3000s BC. This would make this, arguably, the oldest such record.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;GIANTS&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The earliest surviving mention of the Minotaur as a son of Pasiphae is Hesiod's *Catalogue of Women*, dated to as early as the 700s BC. However, if we cannot count Pasiphae or the daughters of Dakṣā as human beings, then we must look elsewhere for these human mothers of monsters. Hesiod again mentions certain giants whose mothers were human (assuming that giants count as monsters), namely **Tityos** [Tityus] and the **Aloadai** [or Aloadae or Aloads]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tityos is said to have been a son of the earth-goddess Gaia but that is because his father Zeus, having seduced his real mother, the princess Elara, buried her alive in order to hide her from his jealous wife Hera. Therafter, from underground, Elara is supposed to have given birth to Tityos, who then emerged, in a double birth, from Gaia's womb: the ground.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Aloadai were named from their stepfather Aloeus, but their real father was the sea-god Poseidon, who seduced Aloeus' wife Iphimedeia. From the union were born the twin giants Otos and Ephialtes, also known as the Aloadai, &quot;Offspring of Aloeus.&quot; These two brothers were so massive and powerful that, while they were still children, they once captured the war-god Ares and stuck him in a jar, nearly starving him to death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his book ***The Mythology of the Wichita***, describing the stories of an ethnic group from Oklahoma, USA, George Amos Dorsey recounts the story of how the chief or headman of a certain village had a wife who gave birth to four monsters. There are two versions of the narrative provided. The first says, ambiguously, that the monsters “had four feet”, which could mean that they each had only one foot or perhaps that each of them was a quadrupred who went about on all fours. The second version says that they were equine (horse-like), so perhaps quadrupedal. At any rate they began to consume the other children in the village and eventually the adults as well. They grew so huge that their heads touched the sky and they began to devour people from afar off, whom they were able to pick up by simply stretching themselves forth. In conjunction with a giant turtle, the Flood was sent to destroy them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As this is based on oral tradition, it is difficult to know how old this story is, but it sounds very similar to events narrated in the First Book of Enoch, elaborating the beginning of Chapter 6 of the Bible's Book of Genesis. In the Hebrew text of Genesis, we are told that in the world’s early days *benê ha-elohîm* married and got children upon *benoṯ ha-adam.* These terms are variously translated and it is debated what exactly they mean. *Benê ha-elohîm* can be translated &quot;Sons of God&quot; or &quot;sons of the gods,&quot; while *benoṯ ha-adam* literally means &quot;daughters of [the] Adam&quot; or &quot;daughters of the Human&quot; and is often rendered as &quot;daughters of men.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The text also says that in the days that these marriages occurred there were **the *Nephilim*** on the earth or in the land. It is also debated what *Nephilim* actually means but in the Ancient Greek version of Genesis it is translated *gigantes*, which is typically rendered into English as &quot;giants.&quot; 1 Enoch and the Book of Jubilees (which are considered to be apocryphal by most Jewish and Christian groups, although they are in the Biblical canon of the East African Tewahedo Churches) definitely follow this interpretation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In 1 Enoch these giants are the children of a group of two hundred celestial beings, &quot;angels,&quot; called the **Watchers**, who descend from the sky to the earth in order to consort with human women. Their monstrous offspring consume the beasts and the birds before becoming man-eaters and finally turning on one other. In response to their violence God deluges the entire earth to wipe them out.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Modern scholars date 1 Enoch to the 300s BC at the earliest. According to Tewahedo Church tradition, however, the book was actually written by Enoch, an early descendant of the first man Adam, and, according to the narrative, Enoch was born when Adam was still alive, which would make this text at least about as old as the *Mahābhārata* is claimed to be, if not more so.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;OTHER CREATURES&#xD;&#xA;-------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**(*... and a few more giants*)**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we cannot count humanoid giants as monsters then there are several potential candidates attested starting around the turn of the 1st millennia BC &amp; AD. In this time the Roman writers Ovid and Hyginus both make mention of **Khrysomallos** [Chrysomallus], the winged, talking ram whose golden fleece became the objective of the mission of the Argonauts about a generation after Khrysomallos’ death. Khrysomallos was the offspring of Poseidon [or rather *Neptunus* as he was known to the Romans] by a princess named Theophane. Poseidon/Neptunus had transformed Theophane into a ewe and himself into a ram while conceiving Khrysomallos. This ram occurs as early as the *Catalogue of Women*, but the most ancient surviving mentions of his origin seem to be in Ovid’s *Metamorphoses* and Hyginus’ *Fabulae*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But perhaps a golden, winged, talking ram doesn’t sound very monstrous, in which case then the next timeframe in view might be the 100s AD, during which I can think of three options.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Erikhthonios** [Erichthonius] was an early king of Athens and an ancestor of Theseus. He is very strangely described as either a dragon or a snake, or parts of his body sported the features of these reptilian creatures. Either his lower half was that of a snake or he had a snake’s tail with reptilian feet. Hyginus makes him sound pretty much like one of the Gigantes [Giants] who fought against the gods: the feet of these Gigantes *were* snakes. In order to hide his lower extremities, Hyginus says in his *Poetica Astronomica*, King Erikhthonios invented the four-horse chariot. The most common version of his parentage says that the king was the son of Gaia by the fire-god Hephaistos. According to Apollodorus, however, “Some say that this Erikhthonios was a son of Hephaistos and Atthis, daughter of Kranaos [Cranaus].” Kranaos was one of Erikhthonos’ predecessors on the throne of Athens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Seirenes** [Sirens] are the famous part-bird monster sea-nymphs who feature as alluring songstresses in the *Odyssey* and in the story of the Argonauts. One of the Muses, either Terpsikhore or Melpomene, is usually said to be their mother, with the Aitolian river-god Akhelous [Achelous] as the father. Once again, however, Apollodorus records an alternate parentage in which the Aitolian princess Sterope, a daughter of Porthaon and Euryte and sister of King Oineus [Oeneus], is the mother.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Agrios and Oreios** were a pair of man-eaters: grizzly bestial giants whose father was a bear. Their origin is quite similar to that of the Minotaur, except that their mother Polyphonte was much more human than Pasiphae. Polyphonte’s father was a man named Hipponoüs. Her mother Thrassa was the daughter of Ares by Teirene, a nymph of the Thracian River Strymon. The story of Agrios and Oreios is recorded by Antoninus Liberalis, whose work, entitled *Metamorphoses*, is thought to have written sometime between 100 and 300 AD." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11045" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2711" RevisionGUID="c11b81b8-6e53-486a-9557-2b7eeccfed8e" CreationDate="2017-07-02T18:53:38.793" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="An early theme in several mythologies, particularly on the land masses referred to, in English, as Europe, Asia and North America, is that of women giving birth to giants, usually humanoid ones. In the chronology of the myths themselves, these women often live in the time prior to the Flood which covered the entire earth at some point thousands of years ago (and sometimes even millennia prior to the time of the peoples telling these stories, as far as they could reckon).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`Disclaimer:` ***Divine [and Semidivine] Women*, Thus Technically Not Human**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pasiphae is one of a few female characters in Greek myth who are somewhat peculiar for the fact that they are actually immortal divine beings but who live among mortals as though they themselves are mortal, and they marry mortal kings, thus appearing to be human, even though they are not. Pasiphae's sister Kirke [Circe], a famous *Odyssey* character, is one such personage, who, according to one tradition, marries Telemakhos [Telemachus] son of Odysseus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pasiphae and Kirke are daughters of the sun-god Helios and the Oceanid Perseïs. In her book *Gender and Immortality*, Deborah Lyons notes the curious phenomenon in Greek mythology which has it so that some of the early female offspring of the gods (especially daughters of water deities like the rivers and the Oceanids) are immortal or at least semidivine (e.g. they become river-nymphs) while the early male offspring of these gods tend to be ordinary mortals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both Pasiphae and Kirke are born goddesses (albeit minor ones) while their brother Aietes [Aeetes] becomes the [evidently mortal] king of Colchis (where he becomes the keeper of the Golden Fleece before the Argonauts arrive in his country to claim it), even though they have the same mother and father. Aietes then goes on to marry his own aunt the Oceanid Eidyia. Of their children—a girl and a boy—the girl, Medeia, is sometimes described as having been born an immortal witch just like her aunts Pasiphae and Kirke, while the boy, Absyrtos, ends up dead just like any other mortal (having been slain by his own sister).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Before the Flood, a similar marriage like that of Aietes and Eidyia occurs between another Oceanid, Klymene, and King Merops of Ethiopia. Klymene marries Merops after having divorced Helios, who was married to her centuries before he was married to her sister Perseïs. Together, Helios and Klymene had had several daughters, all semidivine sun-nymphs, and a son Phaethon, who died taking his dad's car (the fiery Sun-chariot) out for a ride.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yet another Oceanid, Pleïone, marries the Titan Atlas and bears him numerous daughters and a son. Seven of the daughters are called the Pleïades, after their mother. The eldest of them, Maia, becomes the mother of the god Hermes. Among the younger ones, Merope and Sterope marry the mortal kings Sisyphos and Oinomaos respectively. (Like his male cousins, the son here, named Hyas, dies a violent death, killed by a wild animal.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All these [semi]divine women blur the distinction between the gods and humankind, bearing human children to their sometimes human, sometimes divine consorts, and often living as the unremarkable wives of their mortal husbands.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Pasiphae's (Older) Indian Equivalents***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A similar phenomenon occurs in ancient Indian mythology, wherein the earliest women are the daughters of the *ṛṣis* [*rishis*], male entities who are a class of being distinct from the gods and men, and yet are related to both, and in fact, in most versions of the cosmogony, are the ancestors of almost all the other beings in the universe, including gods and humans. It thus becomes difficult to classify these daughters, who themselves marry other *ṛṣis*, to whom they are related (usually their own uncles or nephews or such), and to whom they bear a mix of children who vary in nature. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The foremost these are the many daughters of the *ṛṣi* Dakṣā [Daksha]. Depending on which source is consulted there are sixty or a hundred of them who then get married off to a number of other *ṛṣis*. Kāśyapa [Kashyapa], a relative of Dakṣā, married at least ten of these daughters and from them were born some of the most powerful gods and various tribes of *āsuras* [the traditional enemies of the gods], as well as humankind, plants and animals. Even though both Dakṣā and Kāśyapa are counted among the Prajāpatis, &quot;Masters of Creation,&quot; entities who fashioned and organised the universe and its different lifeforms, they are sometimes depicted as ordinary human beings living on earth. This is especially the case with Kāśyapa and some of his wives.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Among the most notorious creatures classifiable as monsters in Indian mythology are the **Rākṣasas** [Rakshasas]. According to the Agni Purāṇa, the first of these were the thirty sons of Kāśyapa by his wife Muni, a daughter of Dakṣā. The Agni Purāṇa, however, was only composed sometime in the 600s AD. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is an older record of other monstrous children of Kāśyapa, these being the first one hundred **Dānavas**, the first **Daityas**, and the first one thousand **Kadraveyas**. The mothers of all these children were daughters of Dakṣā. The Dānavas and the Daityas were closely associated groups of huge beings quite similar to the Titans of Greek mythology. Their mothers were Danu and Diti respectively. The Kadraveyas were a tribe of snake-people, several of them being many-headed creatures, whose mother was called Kadrū. One famous son of Kadrū is the gigantic snake-man **Kāliya**, who is described as having either 110 or 1,000 hooded cobra-heads. He was confronted and defeated once by the demigod hero Kṛṣṇa [Krishna]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Dānavas, Daityas and Kadraveyas are mentioned, together with their parents, in the epic called the *Mahābhārata*. There are various dates posited for the composition of this literary work. On the later side we have the 900s BC—300s AD, although in Hindu tradition it was composed by one of the characters appearing in it, which characters are supposed to have lived potentially as long ago as the 5500s—3000s BC. This would make this, arguably, the oldest such record.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;GIANTS&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The earliest surviving mention of the Minotaur as a son of Pasiphae is Hesiod's *Catalogue of Women*, dated to as early as the 700s BC. However, if we cannot count Pasiphae or the daughters of Dakṣā as human beings, then we must look elsewhere for these human mothers of monsters. Hesiod again mentions certain giants whose mothers were human (assuming that giants count as monsters), namely **Tityos** [Tityus] and the **Aloadai** [or Aloadae or Aloads]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tityos is said to have been a son of the earth-goddess Gaia but that is because his father Zeus, having seduced his real mother, the princess Elara, buried her alive in order to hide her from his jealous wife Hera. Therafter, from underground, Elara is supposed to have given birth to Tityos, who then emerged, in a double birth, from Gaia's womb: the ground.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Aloadai were named from their stepfather Aloeus, but their real father was the sea-god Poseidon, who seduced Aloeus' wife Iphimedeia. From the union were born the twin giants Otos and Ephialtes, also known as the Aloadai, &quot;Offspring of Aloeus.&quot; These two brothers were so massive and powerful that, while they were still children, they once captured the war-god Ares and stuck him in a jar, nearly starving him to death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his book ***The Mythology of the Wichita***, describing the stories of an ethnic group from Oklahoma, USA, George Amos Dorsey recounts the story of how the chief or headman of a certain village had a wife who gave birth to four monsters. There are two versions of the narrative provided. The first says, ambiguously, that the monsters “had four feet”, which could mean that they each had only one foot or perhaps that each of them was a quadrupred who went about on all fours. The second version says that they were equine (horse-like), so perhaps quadrupedal. At any rate they began to consume the other children in the village and eventually the adults as well. They grew so huge that their heads touched the sky and they began to devour people from afar off, whom they were able to pick up by simply stretching themselves forth. In conjunction with a giant turtle, the Flood was sent to destroy them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As this is based on oral tradition, it is difficult to know how old this story is, but it sounds very similar to events narrated in the First Book of Enoch, elaborating the beginning of Chapter 6 of the Bible's Book of Genesis. In the Hebrew text of Genesis, we are told that in the world’s early days *benê ha-elohîm* married and got children upon *benoṯ ha-adam.* These terms are variously translated and it is debated what exactly they mean. *Benê ha-elohîm* can be translated &quot;Sons of God&quot; or &quot;sons of the gods,&quot; while *benoṯ ha-adam* literally means &quot;daughters of [the] Adam&quot; or &quot;daughters of the Human&quot; and is often rendered as &quot;daughters of men.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The text also says that in the days that these marriages occurred there were **the *Nephilim*** on the earth or in the land. It is also debated what *Nephilim* actually means but in the Ancient Greek version of Genesis it is translated *gigantes*, which is typically rendered into English as &quot;giants.&quot; 1 Enoch and the Book of Jubilees (which are considered to be apocryphal by most Jewish and Christian groups, although they are in the Biblical canon of the East African Tewahedo Churches) definitely follow this interpretation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In 1 Enoch these giants are the children of a group of two hundred celestial beings, &quot;angels,&quot; called **the Watchers**, who descend from the sky to the earth in order to consort with human women. Their monstrous offspring consume the beasts and the birds before becoming man-eaters and finally turning on one other. In response to their violence God deluges the entire earth to wipe them out.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Modern scholars date 1 Enoch to the 300s BC at the earliest. According to Tewahedo Church tradition, however, the book was actually written by Enoch, an early descendant of the first man Adam, and, according to the narrative, Enoch was born when Adam was still alive, which would make this text at least about as old as the *Mahābhārata* is claimed to be, if not more so.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;OTHER CREATURES&#xD;&#xA;-------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**(*... and a few more giants*)**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we cannot count humanoid giants as monsters then there are a few potential candidates attested starting around the turn of the 1st millennia BC &amp; AD. In this time the Roman writers Ovid and Hyginus both make mention of **Khrysomallos** [Chrysomallus], the winged, talking ram whose golden fleece became the objective of the mission of the Argonauts about a generation after Khrysomallos’ death. Khrysomallos was the offspring of Poseidon [or rather *Neptunus* as he was known to the Romans] by a princess named Theophane. Poseidon/Neptunus had transformed Theophane into a ewe and himself into a ram while conceiving Khrysomallos. This ram occurs as early as the *Catalogue of Women*, but the most ancient surviving mentions of his origin seem to be in Ovid’s *Metamorphoses* and Hyginus’ *Fabulae*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But perhaps a golden, winged, talking ram doesn’t sound very monstrous, in which case then the next timeframe in view might be the 100s AD, during which I can think of three options.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Erikhthonios** [Erichthonius] was an early king of Athens and an ancestor of Theseus. He is very strangely described as either a dragon or a snake, or parts of his body sported the features of these reptilian creatures. Either his lower half was that of a snake or he had a snake’s tail with reptilian feet. Hyginus makes him sound pretty much like one of the Gigantes [Giants] who fought against the gods: the feet of these Gigantes *were* snakes. In order to hide his lower extremities, Hyginus says in his *Poetica Astronomica*, King Erikhthonios invented the four-horse chariot. The most common version of his parentage says that the king was the son of Gaia by the fire-god Hephaistos. According to Apollodorus, however, “Some say that this Erikhthonios was a son of Hephaistos and Atthis, daughter of Kranaos [Cranaus].” Kranaos was one of Erikhthonos’ predecessors on the throne of Athens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Seirenes** [Sirens] are the famous part-bird monster sea-nymphs who feature as alluring songstresses in the *Odyssey* and in the story of the Argonauts. One of the Muses, either Terpsikhore or Melpomene, is usually said to be their mother, with the Aitolian river-god Akhelous [Achelous] as the father. Once again, however, Apollodorus records an alternate parentage in which the Aitolian princess Sterope, a daughter of Porthaon and Euryte and sister of King Oineus [Oeneus], is the mother.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Agrios and Oreios** were a pair of man-eaters: grizzly bestial giants whose father was a bear. Their origin is quite similar to that of the Minotaur, except that their mother Polyphonte was much more human than Pasiphae. Polyphonte’s father was a man named Hipponoüs. Her mother Thrassa was the daughter of Ares by Teirene, a nymph of the Thracian River Strymon. The story of Agrios and Oreios is recorded by Antoninus Liberalis, whose work, entitled *Metamorphoses*, is thought to have been written sometime between 100 and 300 AD." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11049" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="33" RevisionGUID="5d1b4618-06c6-4982-bd1c-d8f54fbbff00" CreationDate="2017-07-04T00:37:13.123" UserId="-1" Comment="corrected a spelling" Text="Arthurian legend is essentially combined from a wide variety of sources, and there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first narrative account is from Geoffrey of Monmouth in *[Historia Regum Britanniae][1]* (History of the Kings of Britain), 12th Century. He wrote, in Latin, of a sword called **Caliburnus**, which was made on the isle of Avalon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wace wrote *[Roman de Brut][2]* (12th Century), which is described as &quot;an Old French translation and versification of [Monmouth]&quot;. According to Wiki, the sword is called  Calabrum, Callibourc, Chalabrun, and Calabrun (with alternate spellings such as Chalabrum, Calibore, Callibor, Caliborne, Calliborc, and Escaliborc).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Chretien de Troyes wrote, in *[Perceval][3]*, (again in the 12th Century), of a sword called **Escalibor** or **Excalibor**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Robert de Boron (late 12th/early 13th Century), in *[Merlin][4]*, wrote of the **Sword in the Stone**, and about the idea of only &quot;one true king&quot; being able to retrieve the sword. It isn't confirmed that this sword is Excalibur, but later versions took this story and called the sword Excalibur.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later, in the *[Post-Vulgate Cycle*][5] (13th Century), French writers attempted to bring together some of the scenes and characters of the legends (Wiki calls it a &quot;rehandling of the earlier Vulgate Cycle&quot;). In this version, the sword is called **Excalibur**, and is given to Arthur by the **Lady of the Lake**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *[Le Morte d'Arthur][6]*, by Thomas Malory, he gives both versions, and calls both **Excalibur**. Arthur receives the sword three different times in *Le Morte*, in three different ways (the stone, the lake and once in a battle). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, according to the 15th Century *[Alliterative Morte Arthur][7]*, there is a sword called **Clarent**, a fragile sword designed for ceremonial purposes rather than fighting. The internet (though I haven't found an original source for this yet) associates this with being the **Sword in the Stone**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In conclusion, there isn't a clear answer. The stories evolved quite a bit, and the sword that some writers took to be Excalibur was taken by others to mean Clarent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, it does seem that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Excalibur and Caliburn ***do*** seem to be the same sword. It is a linguistic evolution. Both are taken to be Arthur's &quot;main&quot; sword, regardless of writer or name.&#xD;&#xA; - The Sword in the Stone, and the one from the Lake, may or may not be the same sword.&#xD;&#xA; - Clarent is ***not*** Excalibur, and is a different sword, wielded by King Arthur at points (and later, Mordred). It ***may*** be the Sword in the Stone, but ***is not*** the sword from the Lady in the Lake.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_Regum_Britanniae&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_de_Brut&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perceval,_the_Story_of_the_Grail&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merlin#Later_adaptations_of_the_legend&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-Vulgate_Cycle&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Morte_d%27Arthur&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliterative_Morte_Arthure" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11050" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="33" RevisionGUID="5d1b4618-06c6-4982-bd1c-d8f54fbbff00" CreationDate="2017-07-04T00:37:13.123" Comment="Proposed by anonymous approved by 967, 26 edit id of 445" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11051" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2715" RevisionGUID="21af3288-cf01-41df-88ef-7f8f7dba3838" CreationDate="2017-07-04T04:27:05.713" UserId="3960" Text="In the epic of [Sodom and Gomorrah][1] the angels appeared to Abraham were comely men desired by the citizens there, that is, they appeared as normal humans to the people except they were extraordinarily beautiful. Thus Lot was able to exchange them with his daughters. Second, if the fallen angels were giant in size they were impossible to have sexual intercourse with human women. Last, if the offspring from the fallen angels were giants in size possibly impossible for the human women to give birth to. Therefore from these analogues the angels, thus the fallen angels, are in human size, not giant size. Why their offspring were giants? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further, all angels are male because the Bible only said that they took the daughters of man for wives, none mentioned some took the sons for husbands, is it?       &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodom_and_Gomorrah" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11052" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2715" RevisionGUID="21af3288-cf01-41df-88ef-7f8f7dba3838" CreationDate="2017-07-04T04:27:05.713" UserId="3960" Text="According to Biblical account, why fallen angels' offspring are giants?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11053" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2715" RevisionGUID="21af3288-cf01-41df-88ef-7f8f7dba3838" CreationDate="2017-07-04T04:27:05.713" UserId="3960" Text="|bible|angels|giants|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11054" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2639" RevisionGUID="592f9724-54af-43ca-9a2a-cc3a79a8610d" CreationDate="2017-07-04T06:48:57.680" UserId="188" Comment="Spelling correction... Don't know what &quot;Do ot end&quot; was supposed to be, so I took a guess at general meaning." Text="Elder Scrolls Lore&#xD;&#xA;------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**This passage is for people wanting to know a little bit about Skyrim lore.**&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Skyrim is the 5th official game in the Elder Scrolls serie (I do not count the other games and spin off novels and such)&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The elder Scrolls is situated in Tamriel in a typical Medieval fantasy setting (So you will find orcs, elves and dwarves). Skyrim is a north province. Its inhabitants, the Nords, are obviously using Viking as reference. The Redguards are using the Arabic culture. The Imperials, Rome.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In the game Skyrim the ancient God Alduin, The world Eater, a dragon of immense power is coming to Tamriel and precisely Skyrim to... destroy the world. He is helped by an army of immortal dragons he is raising. Unfortunately for Him a powerful warrior, the Dragonborn, a warrior who can absorb the souls of the dragons, thus killing them will rise against him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Answer&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You have one thing to see when talking about the Elder Scrolls in general: The mythologoy behind the Elder Scrolls is the Elder scrolls. First and foremost this is what is followed and nothing else. That is to say that Skyrim is, yes, &quot;norse&quot;, but &quot;norse&quot;, is much more a general &quot;feeling&quot; than following &quot;norse&quot; mythology.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;You have also to see that the Elder Scrolls are taping, vastly, in way more things than &quot;norse&quot;. The Imperials are following the Roman empire, seated in a Medieval period. The werewolves are inspired by the modern representation of the modern beast; etc. &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;I will illustrate, here, how &quot;norse&quot; will taint Skyrim:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In the opening sequence, on the cart, you meet a &quot;horse thief&quot; named &quot;Lokir of Rorikstead&quot;. Anyone knowing the norse mythology will see an amusing reference to Loki, father of Sleipnir (Odin's horse) and god of deception (thievery).&#xD;&#xA; - During the companion quest you try to put back together the shattered mythical axe Wuuthrad, that is fairly clearly inspired by the shattered sword of Sigurd/Siegfried Gram.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note also that: Broken weapons are not especially norse stuff (think about Narsil in the Lord of the Ring) . I still do believe that both Lokir, and Wuuthrad are &quot;referencing&quot; norse things more than anything else.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now regarding you specific question. Alduin is a legendary dragon. In term of myth, dragons, malevolent one, as Alduin, are omnipresent. Example: Tiamat, in Mesopotamia, or Apopis in Egypt. Notice both those dragons are as close reference to Alduin as the one I am giving you:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Niddhogr is a giant dragon that eats the root of the World tree Yggdrasill. Niddhogr is completely as malevolent as Alduin, both are god-like creatures. Both are trying to put an end to the world.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As everywhere in the Elder Scrolls, what matters to them is the &quot;Elder scrolls' lore first and foremost. In the case of Skyrim, this lore is tainted all over with Norse mythology. But it is only a far taint (rightfully). You will not see Odin, Fricka or Valkyries entering the Elder Scrolls pantheon. so don't expect the the Elder Scrolls lore to fit the Norse mythology. They just bring some &quot;Norse mythology elements&quot; to have this little Norse feeling in the game." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11055" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2639" RevisionGUID="592f9724-54af-43ca-9a2a-cc3a79a8610d" CreationDate="2017-07-04T06:48:57.680" Comment="Proposed by 188 approved by 2774 edit id of 446" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11056" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2637" RevisionGUID="64c3ff2a-de68-433f-b41c-f42c9794ae50" CreationDate="2017-07-04T15:18:18.243" UserId="188" Comment="More Explanatory?" Text="I'm a big fan of both the Elder Scrolls and Mythology, Skyrim has its own in-game mythology. But I have no clue what myths the story of the Dragonborn and the World Eater is based on.&#xA;&#xA;Key Points: &#xA;&#xA;* The savior of the world is connected by ancestry to the threat to the world.&#xA;* Dragons ending the world.&#xA;* Dragons representing time.&#xA;* Dragons eating the world.&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;- Is it based on one or more myths or is it &lt;b&gt;completely&lt;/b&gt; made up by the writers?&lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;- What could it possibly be based on?&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;thx in advance" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11057" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2637" RevisionGUID="64c3ff2a-de68-433f-b41c-f42c9794ae50" CreationDate="2017-07-04T15:18:18.243" Comment="Proposed by 188 approved by 2774, 967 edit id of 447" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11058" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2637" RevisionGUID="0f25daa6-91c0-4f3c-bcfb-6d0fd6bf0ed0" CreationDate="2017-07-04T15:18:28.940" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11059" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2637" RevisionGUID="0f25daa6-91c0-4f3c-bcfb-6d0fd6bf0ed0" CreationDate="2017-07-04T15:18:28.940" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="I'm a big fan of both the Elder Scrolls and Mythology, Skyrim has its own in-game mythology. But I have no clue what myths the story of the Dragonborn and the World Eater is based on.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Key Points: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* The savior of the world is connected by ancestry to the threat to the world.&#xD;&#xA;* Dragons ending the world.&#xD;&#xA;* Dragons representing time.&#xD;&#xA;* Dragons eating the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;- Is it based on one or more myths or is it &lt;b&gt;completely&lt;/b&gt; made up by the writers?&lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;- What could it possibly be based on?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11060" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2716" RevisionGUID="140250e0-6961-4724-b6ab-ef9542cac97b" CreationDate="2017-07-04T16:30:59.130" UserId="3947" Text="&gt;[I]f the fallen angels were giant in size they were impossible to have sexual intercourse with human women&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[A]ll angels are male because the Bible only said that they took the daughters of man for wives, none mentioned some took the sons for husbands&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The angels were able to have sexual intercourse with human women because they took on the form of a human. Angels actually have no gender, so they could make themselves look however they want. And they don't always look like people; many Christians believe that the serpent in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3) was actually Satan himself, who is the leader of all fallen angels. They could also be whatever size they wish; if they wished to be giant, they could be giant. So that they could have sexual intercourse with human women, they would have made themselves look like very charming and handsome men who were about the same size as the current men, although they very well could have been slightly taller. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The offspring of the fallen angels resulted in people who basically were legendary. I personally believe that these people are what most myths in the ancient world are about, of course the stories would have been slightly altered with time. The fallen angels likely had the ability to alter their DNA according to how they wanted it, allowing them to produce legend worthy people." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11061" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="2461" RevisionGUID="25575341-3fcd-47eb-98ca-8b7ef1106861" CreationDate="2017-07-06T03:07:24.027" UserId="-1" Comment="48" />
  <row Id="11063" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="156" RevisionGUID="32f96950-d802-4e0b-9db2-9f4e2b2a4d8f" CreationDate="2017-07-06T21:50:47.693" UserId="3944" Comment="added 2483 characters in body" Text="List of mythical creatures:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Aeternae, creatures which were killing with bony, saw-toothed protuberances sprouting from their heads.&#xD;&#xA; - Asterius or Aster, a giant.&#xD;&#xA; - Athos, a giant.&#xD;&#xA; - Alcyoneus, a giant.&#xD;&#xA; - Almops, a giant, son of the god Poseidon and the half-nymph Helle.&#xD;&#xA; - Aloadae, strong and aggressive giants.&#xD;&#xA; - Ephialtes&#xD;&#xA; - Otus (or Otos, as well as Otis)&#xD;&#xA; - Amphisbaena, a serpent with a head at each end.&#xD;&#xA; - Antaeus, half-giant son of Poseidon and Gaia. Killed by Heracles.&#xD;&#xA; - Arachne, half-spider half-female, the mother of all spiders. She was transformed into this state by Athena, after losing a weaving contest after she boastfully said she was the best.&#xD;&#xA; - Arae, female daemons of curses, particularly of the curses placed by the dead upon those guilty of their death, called forth from the underworld.&#xD;&#xA; - Argus or Argus Panoptes, a hundred-eyed giant.&#xD;&#xA; - Azeus, a giant.&#xD;&#xA; - Catoblepas, buffalo-like creature with shaggy fur, large horns and a heavy head whose toxic breath or gaze could kill.&#xD;&#xA; - Centaur and Centauride, creature with a head and torso of a human and the body of a horse.&#xD;&#xA;Typical Centaurs&#xD;&#xA; - Agrius, one of the Centaurs who fought with Heracles.&#xD;&#xA; - Amycus, one of the Centaurs who fought at the Centauromachy.&#xD;&#xA; - Asbolus, a centaur. He was a seer, or an auger: a diviner who read omens in the flight of birds.&#xD;&#xA; - Bienor, one of the Centaurs who fought at the Centauromachy.&#xD;&#xA; - Centaurus, father of the centaurs.&#xD;&#xA; - Chiron, the eldest and wisest of the centaurs. The ancient trainer of heroes such as Achilles.&#xD;&#xA; - Chthonius, a Centaur who was killed by Nestor at the wedding of Pirithous and  - Hippodamia.&#xD;&#xA; - Cyllarus, one of the Centaurs who fought at the Centauromachy.&#xD;&#xA; - Dictys, one of the Centaurs who fought at the Centauromachy.&#xD;&#xA; - Eurytus, a Centaur present at the wedding of Pirithous and Hippodamia, who caused the conflict between the Lapiths and the Centaurs by trying to carry the bride off.&#xD;&#xA; - Eurynomos, one of the Centaurs who fought against the Lapiths at the wedding of Hippodamia.&#xD;&#xA; - Elatus, a Centaur killed by Heracles.&#xD;&#xA; - Eurytion, two different Centaurs bearing the same name.&#xD;&#xA; - Hylaeus, a centaur who tried to rape Atalanta. He was killed by Meleager.&#xD;&#xA; - Hylonome, a Centauride, wife of Cyllarus.&#xD;&#xA; - Nessus, famous centaur, killed by Heracles.&#xD;&#xA; - Perimedes, one of the Centaurs who fought at the Centauromachy.&#xD;&#xA; - Phólos, a centaur.&#xD;&#xA; - Pholus, a wise centaur and friend of Heracles.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11064" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="156" RevisionGUID="32f96950-d802-4e0b-9db2-9f4e2b2a4d8f" CreationDate="2017-07-06T21:50:47.693" Comment="Proposed by 3944 approved by 2774, 2892 edit id of 452" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11065" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="115" RevisionGUID="6a996935-ff59-43bd-b97c-9fdccbd20253" CreationDate="2017-07-06T21:51:29.080" UserId="3944" Comment="added 2478 characters in body" Text="Greek mythology is the body of myths and teachings that belong to the ancient Greeks, concerning their gods and heroes, the nature of the world, and the origins and significance of their own cult and ritual practices. It was a part of the religion in ancient Greece. Modern scholars refer to and study the myths in an attempt to shed light on the religious and political institutions of ancient Greece and its civilization, and to gain understanding of the nature of myth-making itself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Greek mythology is explicitly embodied in a large collection of narratives, and implicitly in Greek representational arts, such as vase-paintings and votive gifts. Greek myth attempts to explain the origins of the world, and details the lives and adventures of a wide variety of gods, goddesses, heroes, heroines and mythological creatures. These accounts initially were disseminated in an oral-poetic tradition; today the Greek myths are known primarily from ancient Greek literature. The oldest known Greek literary sources, Homer's epic poems Iliad and Odyssey, focus on the Trojan War and its aftermath. Two poems by Homer's near contemporary Hesiod, the Theogony and the Works and Days, contain accounts of the genesis of the world, the succession of divine rulers, the succession of human ages, the origin of human woes, and the origin of sacrificial practices. Myths are also preserved in the Homeric Hymns, in fragments of epic poems of the Epic Cycle, in lyric poems, in the works of the tragedians and comedians of the fifth century BC, in writings of scholars and poets of the Hellenistic Age, and in texts from the time of the Roman Empire by writers such as Plutarch and Pausanias.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Archaeological findings provide a principal source of detail about Greek mythology, with gods and heroes featured prominently in the decoration of many artifacts. Geometric designs on pottery of the eighth century BC depict scenes from the Trojan cycle as well as the adventures of Heracles. In the succeeding Archaic, Classical, and Hellenistic periods, Homeric and various other mythological scenes appear, supplementing the existing literary evidence. Greek mythology has had an extensive influence on the culture, arts, and literature of Western civilization and remains part of Western heritage and language. Poets and artists from ancient times to the present have derived inspiration from Greek mythology and have discovered contemporary significance and relevance in the themes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See also http://meta.mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/39/greek-and-ancient-greek-tags." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11066" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="115" RevisionGUID="6a996935-ff59-43bd-b97c-9fdccbd20253" CreationDate="2017-07-06T21:51:29.080" Comment="Proposed by 3944 approved by 2774, 2892 edit id of 448" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11067" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="497" RevisionGUID="d56a16f8-7a43-4ee0-87de-dd1c93e34f71" CreationDate="2017-07-06T21:53:07.673" UserId="3944" Comment="added 770 characters in body" Text="Hindu mythology is a large figure of mythical narratives in Hinduism found in Hindu texts such as the epics like Mahabharata and Ramayana, Ancient Tamil literature (such as the Sangam literature and Periya Puranam), several other regional literature of South Asia. As such, it is a subset of mainstream Indian and Nepali culture. Rather than one consistent, monolithic structure, the same myth appears in various versions, varies with diverse traditions, developed by different sects, people and philosophical schools, in different regions and at different times, which are not necessarily held by all Hindus to be literal accounts of historical events, but are taken to have deeper, often symbolic, meaning, and which have been given a complex range of interpretations." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11068" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="497" RevisionGUID="d56a16f8-7a43-4ee0-87de-dd1c93e34f71" CreationDate="2017-07-06T21:53:07.673" Comment="Proposed by 3944 approved by 2774, -1 edit id of 451" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11069" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="497" RevisionGUID="fdb3f7ee-ff92-4e57-bb16-e7c1db80b229" CreationDate="2017-07-06T21:53:07.673" UserId="2892" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="Hindu mythology is a large body of mythical narratives found in Hindu texts such as the epics of the Mahabharata and Ramayana, Ancient Tamil literature (such as the Sangam literature and Periya Puranam), several other regional literary traditions of South Asia. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As such, it is a subset of mainstream Indian and Nepali culture. Rather than one consistent, monolithic structure, the same myth appears in various versions, varies with diverse traditions, developed by different sects, people and philosophical schools, in different regions and at different times, which are not necessarily held by all Hindus to be literal accounts of historical events, but are taken to have deeper, often symbolic, meaning, and which have been given a complex range of interpretations." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11070" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="332" RevisionGUID="33273b69-02e6-4314-8f9f-88a955f33fe9" CreationDate="2017-07-06T21:53:39.923" UserId="3944" Comment="added 2354 characters in body" Text="Egyptian mythology is the collection of myths from ancient Egypt, which describe the actions of the Egyptian gods as a means of understanding the world. The beliefs that these myths express are an important part of ancient Egyptian religion. Myths appear frequently in Egyptian writings and art, particularly in short stories and in religious material such as hymns, ritual texts, funerary texts, and temple decoration. These sources rarely contain a complete account of a myth and often describe only brief fragments.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Inspired by the cycles of nature, the Egyptians saw time in the present as a series of recurring patterns, whereas the earliest periods of time were linear. Myths are set in these earliest times, and myth sets the pattern for the cycles of the present. Present events repeat the events of myth, and in doing so renew maat, the fundamental order of the universe. Amongst the most important episodes from the mythic past are the creation myths, in which the gods form the universe out of primordial chaos; the stories of the reign of the sun god Ra upon the earth; and the Osiris myth, concerning the struggles of the gods Osiris, Isis, and Horus against the disruptive god Set. Events from the present that might be regarded as myths include Ra's daily journey through the world and its otherworldly counterpart, the Duat. Recurring themes in these mythic episodes include the conflict between the upholders of maat and the forces of disorder, the importance of the pharaoh in maintaining maat, and the continual death and regeneration of the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The details of these sacred events differ greatly from one text to another and often seem contradictory. Egyptian myths are primarily metaphorical, translating the essence and behavior of deities into terms that humans can understand. Each variant of a myth represents a different symbolic perspective, enriching the Egyptians' understanding of the gods and the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mythology profoundly influenced Egyptian culture. It inspired or influenced many religious rituals and provided the ideological basis for kingship. Scenes and symbols from myth appeared in art in tombs, temples, and amulets. In literature, myths or elements of them were used in stories that range from humor to allegory, demonstrating that the Egyptians adapted mythology to serve a wide variety of purposes." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11071" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="332" RevisionGUID="33273b69-02e6-4314-8f9f-88a955f33fe9" CreationDate="2017-07-06T21:53:39.923" Comment="Proposed by 3944 approved by 2774, 2892 edit id of 450" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11072" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2717" RevisionGUID="d0d5e02e-7cbb-4df0-a031-b468942ea7d5" CreationDate="2017-07-06T22:09:05.857" UserId="292" Text="The apples of the Hesperides were [golden apples][1], which is why they needed a guard. Hercules was tasked with stealing them as one of his [Twelve Labours][2]. The [apples Idunn guarded][3] in Norse myth kept the gods immortal as long as they kept eating them, but when the giants kidnapped her, the gods [began to age][4] (and the giants stopped).  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;The Greek apples are precious, but don't grant immortality, while Norse myth is a little bit ambiguous as to whether it's Idunn or her apples that grant immortality. The 8th century poem *[Haustlong][6]* simply says that she &quot;knew the cure for old age&quot; while Snorri Sturluson, writing centuries later, says that her apples granted immortality. Her name means something like &quot;The Rejuvenating One&quot; so some scholars (John Lindow among others) have suggested that she held the power to keep aging at bay.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;It would explain why the giants didn't just steal her apples.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Hesperides.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Herakles/labors.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://norse-mythology.org/tales/the-kidnapping-of-idun/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://freya.theladyofthelabyrinth.com/?page_id=79&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://ireland-calling.com/celtic-mythology-apple-tree/&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haustl%C3%B6ng" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11074" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2718" RevisionGUID="9f46b0a6-df01-4f66-a748-ecde7b7633b7" CreationDate="2017-07-07T03:38:15.550" UserId="3955" Text="David is correct. In English winged fairies are sylphs or sylphids.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; sylph (n.)  &#xD;&#xA;1650s, &quot;air-spirit,&quot; from Modern Latin *sylphes* (plural), coined 16c. by Paracelsus (1493-1541), originally referring to any race of spirits inhabiting the air, described as being mortal but lacking a soul. Paracelsus' word seems to be an arbitrary coinage, but perhaps it holds a suggestion of Latin *silva* and Greek *nymph*, or Greek *silphe* &quot;a kind of beetle,&quot; but French etymologists propose a Gaulish origin.  &#xD;&#xA;～Etymonline  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;sylphid (n.)  &#xD;&#xA;younger or smaller variety of sylph, 1670s, from French *sylphide* (1670s), from *sylphe* (see sylph) + diminutive suffix.  &#xD;&#xA;～Etymonline  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;___&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Paracelsus categorized &quot;beings of a spiritual nature&quot; into four main categories which correspond to the classical elements: terrestrial pygmies or gnomes, aquatic nymphs or undines, aerial sylphs or silvestris, and igneous salamanders or vulcans (fire). He uses these term pairs completely interchangeably. One may not initially expect it, but sylphs were heavily associated with wooded areas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The thicker the chaos, the more subtle its inhabitants, and vice versa. Gnomes, who live in thick chaos, are subtle; man, who inhabits subtle chaos, is thick. **It is the silvestris that are most like us; live in the air, suffocate in the water, crush under the ground and burn in the fire.** …  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;(E)ach chaos has above it a sky and below, a land; our chaos has heaven above and earth below; so heaven and earth nourish us. The inhabitants of water, that is, those who have water by chaos, have, below them, the earth and above the sky. The gnomes who have the earth by their own chaos, have above them the water and below, the surface of the earth, because the earth rests on [sic] the water: thus, the undines and the gnomes are fed, consequently. **The sylphs, which have the same chaos as the men, follow their same regime.**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**We have the water to quench our thirst; to extinguish theirs, these beings have a water that is unknown to us and which we can not see. They need to eat and drink, but they eat and drink what is their food and drink.** … &#xD;&#xA;～Paracelsus, &quot;Liber de Nymphis, sylphis, pygmaeis et salamandris et de caeteris spiritibus&quot; translated from [Spanish][1] to English via Google Translate&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Would that I could find this in English or the original Latin. I have probed the Internet several times for free versions of these editions and have come up empty. So, please excuse this rough auto-translation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5v1xXmOPGOyZWg2MkhGQUJpY0E/edit" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11075" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2718" RevisionGUID="a675f4a3-42d8-42de-8888-4cb02c36a4bd" CreationDate="2017-07-07T04:05:31.887" UserId="3955" Comment="added info on fairies" Text="David is correct. In English winged fairies are sylphs or sylphids.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; sylph (n.)  &#xD;&#xA;1650s, &quot;air-spirit,&quot; from Modern Latin *sylphes* (plural), coined 16c. by Paracelsus (1493-1541), originally referring to any race of spirits inhabiting the air, described as being mortal but lacking a soul. Paracelsus' word seems to be an arbitrary coinage, but perhaps it holds a suggestion of Latin *silva* and Greek *nymph*, or Greek *silphe* &quot;a kind of beetle,&quot; but French etymologists propose a Gaulish origin.  &#xD;&#xA;～Etymonline  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;sylphid (n.)  &#xD;&#xA;younger or smaller variety of sylph, 1670s, from French *sylphide* (1670s), from *sylphe* (see sylph) + diminutive suffix.  &#xD;&#xA;～Etymonline  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;___&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Paracelsus categorized &quot;beings of a spiritual nature&quot; into four main categories which correspond to the classical elements: terrestrial pygmies or gnomes, aquatic nymphs or undines, aerial sylphs or silvestris, and igneous salamanders or vulcans (fire). He uses these term pairs completely interchangeably. One may not initially expect it, but sylphs were heavily associated with wooded areas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The thicker the chaos, the more subtle its inhabitants, and vice versa. Gnomes, who live in thick chaos, are subtle; man, who inhabits subtle chaos, is thick. **It is the silvestris that are most like us; live in the air, suffocate in the water, crush under the ground and burn in the fire.** …  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;(E)ach chaos has above it a sky and below, a land; our chaos has heaven above and earth below; so heaven and earth nourish us. The inhabitants of water, that is, those who have water by chaos, have, below them, the earth and above the sky. The gnomes who have the earth by their own chaos, have above them the water and below, the surface of the earth, because the earth rests on [sic] the water: thus, the undines and the gnomes are fed, consequently. **The sylphs, which have the same chaos as the men, follow their same regime.**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**We have the water to quench our thirst; to extinguish theirs, these beings have a water that is unknown to us and which we can not see. They need to eat and drink, but they eat and drink what is their food and drink.**  &#xD;&#xA;～Paracelsus, &quot;Liber de Nymphis, sylphis, pygmaeis et salamandris et de caeteris spiritibus&quot; translated from [Spanish][1] to English via Google Translate&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Would that I could find this in English or the original Latin. I have probed the Internet several times for free versions of these editions and have come up empty. So, please excuse this rough auto-translation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;___&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The noun form of `fairy` (more commonly as `fairie` at the time) originally meant `the land of supernatural creatures`. The adjective form meant `legendary` or `supernatural`. Keep in mind that supernatural doesn't connote divine. Per Paracelsus we find that these kinds of creatures were considered below humans in [The Great Chain of Being][2]. However, if they married a human, they would gain a soul:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;It must be remembered that the nymph who has joined a man will be present at the final judgment, because a soul has gained by this union in this trade, being therefore a woman and her union with a man dissolves only If it consents.  &#xD;&#xA;～Paracelsus, &quot;Liber de Nymphis…&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't have a reference for this, but I believe the modern definition came about from a truncation of `fairy folk` down to simply `fairy`. Here's some more etymology, just because I'm nerdy like that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;fairy (n.)  &#xD;&#xA;c. 1300, fairie, &quot;the country or home of supernatural or legendary creatures; fairyland,&quot; also &quot;something incredible or fictitious,&quot; from Old French faerie &quot;land of fairies, meeting of fairies; enchantment, magic, witchcraft, sorcery&quot; (12c.), from fae &quot;fay,&quot; from Latin fata &quot;the Fates,&quot; plural of fatum &quot;that which is ordained; destiny, fate,&quot; from PIE root *bha- (2) &quot;to speak, tell, say.&quot; Also compare fate (n.), also fay.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    In ordinary use an elf differs from a fairy only in generally seeming young, and being more often mischievous. [Century Dictionary]  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;But that was before Tolkien. As a type of supernatural being from late 14c. [contra Tolkien; for example &quot;This maketh that ther been no fairyes&quot; in &quot;Wife of Bath's Tale&quot;], perhaps via intermediate forms such as fairie knight &quot;supernatural or legendary knight&quot; (c. 1300), as in Spenser, where faeries are heroic and human-sized. As a name for the diminutive winged beings in children's stories from early 17c.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    Yet I suspect that this flower-and-butterfly minuteness was also a product of &quot;rationalization,&quot; which transformed the glamour of Elfland into mere finesse, and invisibility into a fragility that could hide in a cowslip or shrink behind a blade of grass. It seems to become fashionable soon after the great voyages had begun to make the world seem too narrow to hold both men and elves; when the magic land of Hy Breasail in the West had become the mere Brazils, the land of red-dye-wood. [J.R.R. Tolkien, &quot;On Fairy-Stories,&quot; 1947]  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Hence, figurative adjective use in reference to lightness, fineness, delicacy.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;～Etymonline  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5v1xXmOPGOyZWg2MkhGQUJpY0E/edit&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_chain_of_being" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11076" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2718" RevisionGUID="0f4396c9-effd-4204-9af6-b419bd143f85" CreationDate="2017-07-07T04:28:02.593" UserId="3955" Comment="need to add elves" Text="David is correct. In English winged fairies are sylphs or sylphids.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; sylph (n.)  &#xD;&#xA;1650s, &quot;air-spirit,&quot; from Modern Latin *sylphes* (plural), coined 16c. by Paracelsus (1493-1541), originally referring to any race of spirits inhabiting the air, described as being mortal but lacking a soul. Paracelsus' word seems to be an arbitrary coinage, but perhaps it holds a suggestion of Latin *silva* and Greek *nymph*, or Greek *silphe* &quot;a kind of beetle,&quot; but French etymologists propose a Gaulish origin.  &#xD;&#xA;～Etymonline  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;sylphid (n.)  &#xD;&#xA;younger or smaller variety of sylph, 1670s, from French *sylphide* (1670s), from *sylphe* (see sylph) + diminutive suffix.  &#xD;&#xA;～Etymonline  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;___&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Paracelsus categorized &quot;beings of a spiritual nature&quot; into four main categories which correspond to the classical elements: terrestrial pygmies or gnomes, aquatic nymphs or undines, aerial sylphs or silvestris, and igneous salamanders or vulcans (fire). He uses these term pairs completely interchangeably. One may not initially expect it, but sylphs were heavily associated with wooded areas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The thicker the chaos, the more subtle its inhabitants, and vice versa. Gnomes, who live in thick chaos, are subtle; man, who inhabits subtle chaos, is thick. **It is the silvestris that are most like us; live in the air, suffocate in the water, crush under the ground and burn in the fire.** …  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;(E)ach chaos has above it a sky and below, a land; our chaos has heaven above and earth below; so heaven and earth nourish us. The inhabitants of water, that is, those who have water by chaos, have, below them, the earth and above the sky. The gnomes who have the earth by their own chaos, have above them the water and below, the surface of the earth, because the earth rests on [sic] the water: thus, the undines and the gnomes are fed, consequently. **The sylphs, which have the same chaos as the men, follow their same regime.**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**We have the water to quench our thirst; to extinguish theirs, these beings have a water that is unknown to us and which we can not see. They need to eat and drink, but they eat and drink what is their food and drink.**  &#xD;&#xA;～Paracelsus, &quot;Liber de Nymphis, sylphis, pygmaeis et salamandris et de caeteris spiritibus&quot; translated from [Spanish][1] to English via Google Translate&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Would that I could find this in English or the original Latin. I have probed the Internet several times for free versions of these editions and have come up empty. So, please excuse this rough auto-translation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;___&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The noun form of `fairy` (more commonly as `fairie` at the time) originally meant `the land of supernatural creatures`. The adjective form meant `legendary` or `supernatural`. Keep in mind that supernatural doesn't connote divine. Per Paracelsus we find that these kinds of creatures were considered below humans in [The Great Chain of Being][2]. However, if they married a human, they would gain a soul:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;It must be remembered that the nymph who has joined a man will be present at the final judgment, because a soul has gained by this union in this trade, being therefore a woman and her union with a man dissolves only If it consents.  &#xD;&#xA;～Paracelsus, &quot;Liber de Nymphis…&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't have a reference for this, but I believe the modern definition came about from a truncation of `fairy folk` down to simply `fairy`. Here's some more etymology, just because I'm nerdy like that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;fairy (n.)  &#xD;&#xA;c. 1300, fairie, &quot;the country or home of supernatural or legendary creatures; fairyland,&quot; also &quot;something incredible or fictitious,&quot; from Old French faerie &quot;land of fairies, meeting of fairies; enchantment, magic, witchcraft, sorcery&quot; (12c.), from fae &quot;fay,&quot; from Latin fata &quot;the Fates,&quot; plural of fatum &quot;that which is ordained; destiny, fate,&quot; from PIE root *bha- (2) &quot;to speak, tell, say.&quot; Also compare fate (n.), also fay.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    In ordinary use an elf differs from a fairy only in generally seeming young, and being more often mischievous. [Century Dictionary]  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;But that was before Tolkien. As a type of supernatural being from late 14c. [contra Tolkien; for example &quot;This maketh that ther been no fairyes&quot; in &quot;Wife of Bath's Tale&quot;], perhaps via intermediate forms such as fairie knight &quot;supernatural or legendary knight&quot; (c. 1300), as in Spenser, where faeries are heroic and human-sized. As a name for the diminutive winged beings in children's stories from early 17c.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    Yet I suspect that this flower-and-butterfly minuteness was also a product of &quot;rationalization,&quot; which transformed the glamour of Elfland into mere finesse, and invisibility into a fragility that could hide in a cowslip or shrink behind a blade of grass. It seems to become fashionable soon after the great voyages had begun to make the world seem too narrow to hold both men and elves; when the magic land of Hy Breasail in the West had become the mere Brazils, the land of red-dye-wood. [J.R.R. Tolkien, &quot;On Fairy-Stories,&quot; 1947]  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Hence, figurative adjective use in reference to lightness, fineness, delicacy.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;～Etymonline  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;___&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I should have noted that while the above words entered English via French &amp; Latin, the similar term `elf` entered via Germanic roots. I'll leave this small note here to remind myself to add this information later.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5v1xXmOPGOyZWg2MkhGQUJpY0E/edit&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_chain_of_being" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11077" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2715" RevisionGUID="ca424609-9067-436b-b999-b50b8e888308" CreationDate="2017-07-07T13:39:02.017" UserId="3960" Comment="added 1064 characters in body" Text="In the epic of [Sodom and Gomorrah][1] the angels appeared to Abraham were comely men desired by the citizens there, that is, they appeared as normal humans to the people except they were extraordinarily beautiful. Thus Lot was able to exchange them with his daughters. Second, if the fallen angels were giant in size they were impossible to have sexual intercourse with human women. Last, if the offspring from the fallen angels were giants in size possibly impossible for the human women to give birth to. Therefore from these analogies the angels, thus the fallen angels, are in human size, not giant size. Why their offspring were giants? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further, all angels are male because the Bible only said that they took the daughters of man for wives, none mentioned some took the sons for husbands, is it?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;Discerning suggestions:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - *angel has power of transfiguration*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't remember mentioned in the Old + New Testament unless if there other non-Biblical texts. However, Satan in Eden appeared as a serpent. But not certain if the Serpent and Lucifer are the same, or teaching derived by the church to interpret Bible? The Bible doesn't state directly the fallen archangel Lucifer is Satan.     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - *could the giants be born as eggs first?* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(I know this is absurd and too imaginative e.e).&#xD;&#xA;If Satan the Serpent is Lucifer, it's logical the offspring from a snake will also be egg-born. Interesting is the corresponding account of Helen of Troy and Castor are born from egg, Zeus morphed as a swan and have intercourse with their mother, Leda.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - *If the giants be born as eggs...*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similar to some insects going through gradual metamorphosis, as the [nymphs][2] exuviated in growth. This make possible the infant and adult size varied extremely compared to viviparity.     &#xD;&#xA;     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodom_and_Gomorrah&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nymph_(biology)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11078" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2715" RevisionGUID="05f8dbc3-a14b-4496-a217-fcfda51799a6" CreationDate="2017-07-07T13:49:10.280" UserId="3960" Comment="edited body; edited title" Text="In the epic of [Sodom and Gomorrah][1] the angels appeared to Abraham were comely men desired by the citizens there, that is, they appeared as normal humans to the people except they were extraordinarily beautiful. Thus Lot was able to exchange them with his daughters. Second, if the fallen angels were giant in size they were impossible to have sexual intercourse with human women. Last, if the offspring from the fallen angels were giants in size possibly impossible for the human women to give birth to. Therefore from these analogies the angels, thus the fallen angels, are in human size, not giant size. Why their offspring were giants? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further, all angels are male because the Bible only said that they took the daughters of man for wives, none mentioned some took the sons for husbands, is it?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;Discerning suggestions:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - *angel has power of transfiguration*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't remember mentioned in the Old + New Testament unless if there other non-Biblical texts. However, Satan in Eden appeared as a serpent. But not certain if the Serpent and Lucifer are the same, or teaching derived by the church to interpret Bible? The Bible doesn't state directly the fallen archangel Lucifer is Satan.     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - *could the giants be born as eggs first?* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(I know this is absurd and too imaginative e.e).&#xD;&#xA;If Satan the Serpent is Lucifer, it follows that the offspring of a snake will be egg-born. Interesting is the corresponding accounts of Helen of Troy and Castor were born from egg, Zeus morphed as a swan and had intercourse with their mother, Leda.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - *If the giants be born as eggs...*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similar to some insects going through gradual metamorphosis, as the [nymphs][2] exuviate during growth. This make possible the infant and adult size varied extremely compared to viviparity.     &#xD;&#xA;     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodom_and_Gomorrah&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nymph_(biology)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11079" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2715" RevisionGUID="05f8dbc3-a14b-4496-a217-fcfda51799a6" CreationDate="2017-07-07T13:49:10.280" UserId="3960" Comment="edited body; edited title" Text="According to Biblical account, why fallen angels' offspring are giants? Or are they egg-born?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11080" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2719" RevisionGUID="1c10ff55-efd2-4e76-b3c5-9e7c66caf42f" CreationDate="2017-07-08T02:50:02.613" UserId="3972" Text="What is Sobek's place in the Egyptian pantheon?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In some places, the Son of Nit (or Neith), is Sobek primordial, existing alongside within the dark waters of Nun / Naunet?&#xD;&#xA;Or was his cult entirely separate from the ogdoadic and enneadic cosmogonies?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11081" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2719" RevisionGUID="1c10ff55-efd2-4e76-b3c5-9e7c66caf42f" CreationDate="2017-07-08T02:50:02.613" UserId="3972" Text="What is Sobek's place in the Egyptian pantheon?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11082" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2719" RevisionGUID="1c10ff55-efd2-4e76-b3c5-9e7c66caf42f" CreationDate="2017-07-08T02:50:02.613" UserId="3972" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11083" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2719" RevisionGUID="3e613ed4-fbac-49f2-ad03-e49a013e622c" CreationDate="2017-07-08T03:47:41.933" UserId="3972" Comment="added 67 characters in body" Text="What is Sobek's place in the Egyptian pantheon?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In some places, the Son of Nit (or Neith), is Sobek primordial, existing alongside within the dark waters of Nun / Naunet?&#xD;&#xA;Or was his original cult entirely separate from the ogdoadic and enneadic cosmogonies?   (The shared temple with Horus of Edfu would come later)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11084" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2720" RevisionGUID="8ac70771-1c55-4122-b156-a6418b32e7d6" CreationDate="2017-07-08T03:50:23.713" UserId="3972" Text="KA being life force, from the Sun (Ra), and BA being the pattern of personality.  The union of these was, according to scholars, the AKH." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11085" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2721" RevisionGUID="c844425f-60d6-47a2-a3cb-0c01a56199c8" CreationDate="2017-07-08T10:28:26.553" UserId="2774" Text="There is here and there some confusions in your question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Nephilims&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What your are talking about in your question are the &quot;Nephilims&quot;. Let's read the Bible (I will use the NIV as a reference text). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 6-1: When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 6-4: The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notce that: the text imply the &quot;sons of god&quot; (not fallen angels) got children with &quot;female human beings&quot; (clearly). The text does not imply the resulting offsprings ARE giants in size.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The &quot;Son of gods&quot; is bene heloim in Hebrew, bene Heloim does not actually refer to &quot;angels&quot;, fact is in modern judaism it does NOT at ALL. A certain number of late Hebrews/early christians commentors translated Bene heloim by fallen angel. Reason is their resulting offsrpings, the &quot;Nephilims&quot;, is probably in Hebrew coming from &quot;N-PH-L[naphal]&quot; to fall.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later on in the Numbers we find that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 13-3 We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the same to them.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nephilim is translated either by &quot;Nephilim&quot; or &quot;giants&quot;. It comes from the hebraic &quot;hannəppilim&quot; which has no direct translation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Bene Heloim&#xD;&#xA;---------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We find references on the &quot;Sons of god&quot; in biblical passages:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Job 1: 6 One day the angels[Bene Heloim] came to present themselves&#xD;&#xA;&gt; before the Lord, and Satan also came with them.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Job 2-1 On another day the angels[Bene Heloim] came to present themselves before the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lord, and Satan also came with them to present himself before him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We see here the &quot;Sons of gods&quot; linked with Satan (the adversary).&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Luke 20 :36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They are God’s children [remind Luke is written in Greek], since they are children of the resurrection&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here, and everywhere, Jesus refers to the son of gods as human beings, without a doubt, they are &quot;like angels&quot;, which fairly clearly imply they are NOT angels, and certainly not a fallen specie of some angels.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the notions of the meaning of the bene heloim is not quite easy to understand. The NIV clearly use &quot;angels&quot;, systematically. You can also find, depending the translatin, Sons of God. Heavenly beings.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;You will find those &quot;play with the translation&quot; in most language. The sense to give to &quot;bene heloim&quot; is totally unclear. &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Let's add that Job, which i quite used here totally know a term in Hebrew for &quot;angel&quot;, as shown here:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4-18 If God places no trust in his servants, if he charges his angels [ube malakaw]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with error,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kalm malak, malakaw in Hebrew meaning sending a messenger, in Greek an &quot;Angelos&quot;. Here are your angels.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Conclusion&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The Nephilims are giants: the Bible never explicitly mentions them as... Contrary to Goliath which is NOT a Nephilim, he is a Rephaim, common foes of those time Hebrews, and clearly depicted as a giant (His height was six cubits and a span ==&gt; around 3m, when the Bible is mentioning giants, the Bible states their heights...). So EVEN if they was giants, this is not particulary a trait from them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - the Nephilims are the offspring of fallen angels: the term sons of gods in the Genesis is quite unclear; they could be angels, fallen angels, or humans one thing is clear! they are male... because they fall in love with the daughters of men. Fact is, they could perfectly be extraterrestrials or visitors from the future.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - the Nephilims are highly praised (*They were the heroes of old, men of renown*) it seems pretty strange to praise the sons of random falty fallen angels of your God and seemingly survived the Flood as the rest of mankind (*in those days—and also afterward*)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a lot of things here and there (Example: Excalibur) there is a traditional common culture which is linking the Nephilims as the giant offsprings of fallen angels and women. Except the Bible, while not stating this interpretation as false, neither specifically hint it as exact. The translation of Nephilim as giants and sons of god as angels is &quot;personal&quot;.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;the only thing I can do so, is debunking the extraordinary false conception." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11086" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2722" RevisionGUID="60936760-34b4-4d06-abf4-0b9f5defba39" CreationDate="2017-07-09T09:02:04.197" UserId="2682" Text="There does not seem to be any ancient text explicitly stating that these apples confer immortality upon anyone, although a case can be made that, thematically, they—as you put it—“at the least are somehow related to immortality.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Precious Purpose**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Contrary, indeed, to what the Wikipedia article that you mention says, neither is there any ancient literary instance of the apples being eaten or consumed in any way.&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; The impression might be gathered here that this is not their purpose at all. Perhaps worth noting is that whenever golden apples occur in Greek mythology—and also, as it happens, in the Norse myth to which you've alluded in which the Jötnar (Giants) steal both the goddess Iðunna *and* her apples—there is no (explicit) mention of them being eaten nor of anyone attempting to eat them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As silly as it might seem at a glance, the most obvious reason for this that I can see is that golden apples are—if understood to be described as solid gold (or anything close to this) rather than merely gold-*coloured*—are basically chunks of metal, which should be simply inedible, perhaps even to the gods.&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; If this is the case then it would make much sense to conclude that they are a symbol more so than a practical foodstuff, even in the narratives themselves. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the very least their function in the stories is that they are valuable on account of being (wholly or partially) composed of a precious substance. If for no other reason, Hera posts guardians over the fruit of her gardens because people have a tendency towards pilfering gold. I do think, though, that there is more to this than simply expensive fruit-shaped ingots. It seems to me that it is not the apples *per se* that have to do with immortality but rather *the process of acquiring them* which results in this eventual condition. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Juba of Numidia is said to have claimed that the Libyans called oranges “the Apples of Hesperia,” saying that it was Herakles who brought them into Libya shortly after stealing them from Hera's gardens.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. Things get decidedly weird, however, when one considers that the Azteca apparently considered gold to be the excrement of the gods, which is literally what is meant by *teocuitlatl*, their word for gold.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**These and *Other* Golden Apples**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are three instances in Greek mythology in which mortals interact with golden apples: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(1) A prince, either Meilanion of Arkadia [Arcadia] or Hippomenes of Megara, is enamoured of the renowned huntress Atalanta and is granted three such apples by the goddess Aphrodite in order to win the huntress's hand in marriage. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(2) Herakles is commanded by his slave-master Eurystheus, as the eleventh of his twelve *athloi*, “labours” or “tasks,” to steal for him the apples of the Hesperides from Hera's gardens in Libya.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(3) Prince Paris of Troy is charged with the responsibility of adjucating a beauty contest among the goddesses Hera, Athena and Aphrodite, the winner's prize being a golden apple. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;None of these three men gets to keep the apple(s) that he has obtained, and all three eventually die. Herakles, however, becomes an immortal after *his* demise, which is a fairly common prerequisite for mortals' acquisition of immortality: they must die first, by some means or another. A few other differences are noticeable between Herakles and the other two heroes. Herakles takes the apples himself, by force, from the otherworldly location in which they have been planted by the gods, while Meilanion/Hippomenes and Paris are each freely given *their* apples while in the ordinary realm of mortals. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles neither receives the apples directly from any divinity nor does he hand them over to any deity. He takes them directly from their tree and then presents them to his mortal slave-master, who gives them to Athena who then returns them to Hera's gardens. Meilanion or Hippomenes receives his apples from Aphrodite. Another goddess, Eris, is the originator of Paris's apple, which ends up with Aphrodite after the beauty contest. According to Colluthus' *Abduction of Helen*, Eris' apple is actually one of those from the Hesperides.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Herakles and His Assignmemts**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The last three of Herakles' twelve *athloi* take place either on the border of the afterworld or in the home of the dead itself, which generally are all points of no return. These three missions are to: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`10.0` steal the oxen of the giant warrior Geryones from the island of Erytheia, where the giant's friend and neighbour Menoites is the herdsman of Haides [Hades], the lord of the dead; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`11.0` steal the apples of the Hesperides, the “Daughters of Evening,” who, like Geryones, dwell on the red edge of Day and Night at the world's western extremity (and also Geryones' island Erytheia, “Red,” is named after one of the Hesperides, who is the mother of the giant's herdsman Eurytion); and &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`12.0` capture Kerberos [Cerberus], the monster watchdog of the Underworld, whose brother Orthros, another monstrous canine, is Geryones' sheepdog. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To return from the afterworld by succeeding in these tasks signifies victory over death. This symbolism is not necessarily spelled out so obviously in the stories themselves but we do have the fact that Herakles is instructed by the oracle of Apollon [Apollo] at Delphi to become a slave of Eurystheus and perform all the tasks that he is commanded to. He is promised that after completing these labours, he shall receive immortality. Further regarding this, [Dick Caldwell](http://www.greecetravel.com/greekmyths/argos8.htm) says:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Two of Herakles’ primary motives, the attainment of immortality&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and the search for maternal nurturance, are embodied in the eleventh&#xD;&#xA;&gt; labor.  On one hand the magic fruit in the paradise garden, like the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; golden apples of north European myth or the fruit of the Tree of Life&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in Genesis 2, are a means to immortality; for the same reason the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; streams of the garden of the Hesperides flow with ambrosia, the food&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the gods and the source of their immortality.  On the other hand&#xD;&#xA;&gt; both the apples and their location represent the idyllic existence of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the infant at its mother’s breast; the garden of the Hesperides, like&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the garden of Eden and other paradise gardens, is a symbolic state of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; abundant maternal nurturance.  Herakles’ winning of the apples is one&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of several attempts he makes to obtain this nurturance, the denial of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which was graphically portrayed in the episode of Hera rejecting him&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from her breast.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his [1902 commentary on Sophocles' *Trachiniae*](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0027:text=intro:section=2), Sir Richard C. Jebb says severally that he perceives the original and now-lost meaning of the journey to the Hesperides and their golden treasure to be the attainment of immortality." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11087" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2722" RevisionGUID="5146d90e-5fe3-4715-a97a-1be9865d456c" CreationDate="2017-07-09T16:22:47.890" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; corrected spelling" Text="There does not seem to be any ancient text explicitly stating that these apples confer immortality upon anyone, although a case can be made that, thematically, they—as you put it—“at the least are somehow related to immortality.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Precious Purpose**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Contrary, indeed, to what the Wikipedia article that you mention says, neither is there any ancient literary instance of the apples being eaten or consumed in any way.&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; The impression might be gathered here that this is not their purpose at all. Perhaps worth noting is that whenever golden apples occur in Greek mythology—and also, as it happens, in the Norse myth to which you've alluded in which the Jötnar (Giants) steal both the goddess Iðunna *and* her apples—there is no (explicit) mention of them being eaten nor of anyone attempting to eat them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As silly as it might seem at a glance, the most obvious reason for this that I can see is that golden apples are—if understood to be described as solid gold (or anything close to this) rather than merely gold-*coloured*—are basically chunks of metal, which should be simply inedible, perhaps even to the gods.&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; If this is the case then it would make much sense to conclude that they are a symbol more so than a practical foodstuff, even in the narratives themselves. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the very least their function in the stories is that they are valuable on account of being (wholly or partially) composed of a precious substance. If for no other reason, Hera posts guardians over the fruit of her gardens because people have a tendency towards pilfering gold. I do think, though, that there is more to this than simply expensive fruit-shaped ingots. It seems to me that it is not the apples *per se* that have to do with immortality but rather *the process of acquiring them* which results in this eventual condition. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Juba of Numidia is said to have claimed that the Libyans called oranges “the Apples of Hesperia,” saying that it was Herakles who brought them into Libya shortly after stealing them from Hera's gardens.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. Things get decidedly weird, however, when one considers that the Azteca apparently considered gold to be the excrement of the gods, which is literally what is meant by *teocuitlatl*, their word for gold.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**These and *Other* Golden Apples**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are three instances in Greek mythology in which mortals interact with golden apples: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(1) A prince, either Meilanion of Arkadia [Arcadia] or Hippomenes of Megara, is enamoured of the renowned huntress Atalanta and is granted three such apples by the goddess Aphrodite in order to win the huntress's hand in marriage. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(2) Herakles is commanded by his slave-master Eurystheus, as the eleventh of his twelve *athloi*, “labours” or “tasks,” to steal for him the apples of the Hesperides from Hera's gardens in Libya.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(3) Prince Paris of Troy is charged with the responsibility of adjucating a beauty contest among the goddesses Hera, Athena and Aphrodite, the winner's prize being a golden apple. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;None of these three men gets to keep the apple(s) that he has obtained, and all three eventually die. Herakles, however, becomes an immortal after *his* demise, which is a fairly common prerequisite for mortals' acquisition of immortality: they must die first, by some means or another. A few other differences are noticeable between Herakles and the other two heroes. Herakles takes the apples himself, by force, from the otherworldly location in which they have been planted by the gods, while Meilanion/Hippomenes and Paris are each freely given *their* apples while in the ordinary realm of mortals. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles neither receives the apples directly from any divinity nor does he hand them over to any deity. He takes them directly from their tree and then presents them to his mortal slave-master, who gives them to Athena, who then returns them to Hera's gardens. Meilanion or Hippomenes receives his apples from Aphrodite. Another goddess, Eris, is the originator of Paris's apple, which ends up with Aphrodite after the beauty contest. According to Colluthus' *Abduction of Helen*, Eris' apple is actually one of those from the Hesperides.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Herakles and His Assignments**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The last three of Herakles' twelve *athloi* take place either on the border of the afterworld or in the home of the dead itself, which generally are all points of no return. These three missions are to: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`10.0` steal the oxen of the giant warrior Geryones from the island of Erytheia, where the giant's friend and neighbour Menoites is the herdsman of Haides [Hades], the lord of the dead; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`11.0` steal the apples of the Hesperides, the “Daughters of Evening,” who, like Geryones, dwell on the red edge of Day and Night at the world's western extremity (and also Geryones' island Erytheia, “Red,” is named after one of the Hesperides, who is the mother of the giant's herdsman Eurytion); and &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`12.0` capture Kerberos [Cerberus], the monster watchdog of the Underworld, whose brother Orthros, another monstrous canine, is Geryones' sheepdog. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To return from the afterworld by succeeding in these tasks signifies victory over death. This symbolism is not necessarily spelled out so obviously in the stories themselves but we do have the fact that Herakles is instructed by the oracle of Apollon [Apollo] at Delphi to become a slave of Eurystheus and perform all the tasks that he is commanded to. He is promised that after completing these labours, he shall receive immortality. Further regarding this, [Dick Caldwell](http://www.greecetravel.com/greekmyths/argos8.htm) says:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Two of Herakles’ primary motives, the attainment of immortality&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and the search for maternal nurturance, are embodied in the eleventh&#xD;&#xA;&gt; labor.  On one hand the magic fruit in the paradise garden, like the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; golden apples of north European myth or the fruit of the Tree of Life&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in Genesis 2, are a means to immortality; for the same reason the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; streams of the garden of the Hesperides flow with ambrosia, the food&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the gods and the source of their immortality.  On the other hand&#xD;&#xA;&gt; both the apples and their location represent the idyllic existence of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the infant at its mother’s breast; the garden of the Hesperides, like&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the garden of Eden and other paradise gardens, is a symbolic state of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; abundant maternal nurturance.  Herakles’ winning of the apples is one&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of several attempts he makes to obtain this nurturance, the denial of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which was graphically portrayed in the episode of Hera rejecting him&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from her breast.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his [1902 commentary on Sophocles' *Trachiniae*](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0027:text=intro:section=2), Sir Richard C. Jebb says severally that he perceives the original and now-lost meaning of the journey to the Hesperides and their golden treasure to be the attainment of immortality." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11088" PostHistoryTypeId="8" PostId="156" RevisionGUID="40089b6c-bade-4120-8db6-13f79fcc4ddb" CreationDate="2017-07-09T22:43:20.187" UserId="5" Comment="Rollback to [9ce5b474-0cc2-4ddf-8b27-475bdfb2caf4] - Edit approval overridden by post owner or moderator" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11089" PostHistoryTypeId="8" PostId="332" RevisionGUID="bcf7b6ae-8416-4d67-9428-c7696b7fa920" CreationDate="2017-07-09T22:43:53.127" UserId="5" Comment="Rollback to [15ba9ebe-316c-4d58-9a4e-858e43867f3c] - Edit approval overridden by post owner or moderator" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11090" PostHistoryTypeId="8" PostId="115" RevisionGUID="4ae57e14-d80e-472c-853e-196ad58089a6" CreationDate="2017-07-09T22:44:04.480" UserId="5" Comment="Rollback to [f6660e87-30dc-4d60-8b7b-60cf8b59a9e8] - Edit approval overridden by post owner or moderator" Text="See also http://meta.mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/39/greek-and-ancient-greek-tags." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11091" PostHistoryTypeId="8" PostId="497" RevisionGUID="528578ba-5926-4c20-8295-97356f95775d" CreationDate="2017-07-09T22:44:23.833" UserId="5" Comment="Rollback to [b6bee8ce-783d-4c09-84aa-67cc21583a4f]" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11094" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2723" RevisionGUID="50cd73ac-7adb-43fd-8142-525434c712c3" CreationDate="2017-07-11T01:56:06.593" UserId="2892" Text="There was [an interesting question in Lit regarding the meaning of her name][1], and in my research I came across some interesting speculation on [Nausikaa][2]'s distinctness.  For instance, she is the one woman Odysseus does not mention to Penelope.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Modern authors have definitely &quot;run with&quot; this idea][3], but I'm wondering if anyone here has thoughts on the subject. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------------------&#xD;&#xA;Note: The Wikipedia [leaves out her mention in Eliot][4].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://literature.stackexchange.com/q/2963/391&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nausicaa&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nausicaa#Later_influence&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.bartleby.com/199/15.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11095" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2723" RevisionGUID="50cd73ac-7adb-43fd-8142-525434c712c3" CreationDate="2017-07-11T01:56:06.593" UserId="2892" Text="What does Nausicaa symbolize the Odyssey?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11096" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2723" RevisionGUID="50cd73ac-7adb-43fd-8142-525434c712c3" CreationDate="2017-07-11T01:56:06.593" UserId="2892" Text="|symbolism|odyssey|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11097" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2723" RevisionGUID="ee7ac086-753f-485a-ba08-f2594f64c158" CreationDate="2017-07-11T13:29:03.293" UserId="57" Comment="added 1 character in body; edited title" Text="There was [an interesting question in Lit regarding the meaning of her name][1], and in my research, I came across some interesting speculation on [Nausikaa][2]'s distinctness.  For instance, she is the one woman Odysseus does not mention to Penelope.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Modern authors have definitely &quot;run with&quot; this idea][3], but I'm wondering if anyone here has thoughts on the subject. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------------------&#xD;&#xA;Note: The Wikipedia [leaves out her mention in Eliot][4].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://literature.stackexchange.com/q/2963/391&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nausicaa&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nausicaa#Later_influence&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.bartleby.com/199/15.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11098" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2723" RevisionGUID="ee7ac086-753f-485a-ba08-f2594f64c158" CreationDate="2017-07-11T13:29:03.293" UserId="57" Comment="added 1 character in body; edited title" Text="What does Nausicaa symbolize in the Odyssey?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11100" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2719" RevisionGUID="5b03bcf2-f25c-4dda-8870-4fbcb716c714" CreationDate="2017-07-12T21:34:17.257" UserId="2892" Comment="Slight edits and added links for readers not familiar with the subject matter." Text="What is [Sobek][1]'s place in the Egyptian pantheon?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In some places, the Son of [Nit/Neith)][2], is Sobek primordial, existing alongside within the dark waters of [Nun/Naunet][3]?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or was his original cult entirely separate from the [ogdoadic][4] and [enneadic][5] cosmogonies?   *(The shared temple with [Horus of Edfu][6] would come later)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sobek&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neith&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nu_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordo_Aurum_Solis&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.glosbe.com/en/en/enneadic&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Edfu" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11101" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2719" RevisionGUID="5b03bcf2-f25c-4dda-8870-4fbcb716c714" CreationDate="2017-07-12T21:34:17.257" UserId="2892" Comment="Slight edits and added links for readers not familiar with the subject matter." Text="|egyptian|hermeticism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11102" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2725" RevisionGUID="67c05e3f-09df-4c7c-8dc3-1ff4f0290d25" CreationDate="2017-07-13T00:41:59.993" UserId="3982" Text="Cannot find any origin story for the world tree on wikipedia. Was it created from the body of Ymir too?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11103" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2725" RevisionGUID="67c05e3f-09df-4c7c-8dc3-1ff4f0290d25" CreationDate="2017-07-13T00:41:59.993" UserId="3982" Text="How was the world tree Yggdrasil created?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11104" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2725" RevisionGUID="67c05e3f-09df-4c7c-8dc3-1ff4f0290d25" CreationDate="2017-07-13T00:41:59.993" UserId="3982" Text="|norse|yggdrasil|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11105" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2726" RevisionGUID="ccceaa2b-3d2e-421a-b832-bec800ba14ff" CreationDate="2017-07-13T20:03:33.860" UserId="292" Text="Yggdrasil doesn't seem to have an origin; in the *Prose Edda*, which is a compendium of Norse myth, we get a description of the various beings that live in and around the tree, and how its three roots extend across the cosmos, but nothing about how it came to be. (You can find a pdf of [Faulkes' translation][1] here, or an [older one][2] on this page.)  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;It doesn't seem unreasonable to suppose that it has always been there, since in the poem *Voluspa*, which tells of the creation and destruction of the world, Yggdrasil also just exists, and may possibly have survived the fatal battle of gods and giants.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;Two humans survive the cataclysm, Lif and Lifthrasir, by hiding in &quot;[Hoddmimir's holt][3]&quot;, and if he is the same as Mimir who owned the well at the foot of the tree, then we have to assume the tree survived as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://vsnrweb-publications.org.uk/EDDArestr.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe03.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoddm%C3%ADmis_holt" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11107" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2034" RevisionGUID="6f79b285-d6ba-4479-b5d5-1ac5c6aa2fa9" CreationDate="2017-07-13T20:19:03.683" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="11108" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2728" RevisionGUID="3fd093d5-cffe-4a37-bf49-3d2afc337943" CreationDate="2017-07-13T20:34:44.513" UserId="2892" Text="Obviously because her eyes are that color, but I suspect there are deeper, symbolic reasons for that particular color and description.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is in regard to the epithet [γλαυκῶπις][1], in the lexicon defined as &quot;bright eyed&quot;, but which is often translated as &quot;gray eyed&quot; by poets.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=glaukw%3Dpis&amp;la=greek&amp;can=glaukw%3Dpis0&amp;prior=glaukw/pion#lexicon" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11109" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2728" RevisionGUID="3fd093d5-cffe-4a37-bf49-3d2afc337943" CreationDate="2017-07-13T20:34:44.513" UserId="2892" Text="Why is Athena &quot;gray eyed&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11110" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2728" RevisionGUID="3fd093d5-cffe-4a37-bf49-3d2afc337943" CreationDate="2017-07-13T20:34:44.513" UserId="2892" Text="|greek|athena|etymology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11111" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2729" RevisionGUID="af5207e0-af5c-4313-bb95-f38ee42b418e" CreationDate="2017-07-14T03:27:45.837" UserId="14" Text="In Hinduism, the cosmology works roughly like this: there's Earth, there's worlds above the Earth called Swargas where you go as a reward for good deeds, there's worlds under the Earth called Narakas where you go as a punishment for bad deeds, and finally there's realms within the Earth called Patalas where the demons dwell.  (Some Hindus interpret these worlds as existing in separate Universes or dimensions rather than just spatially separated from Earth.)  But in Christianity, things work somewhat differently: there's Earth, there's Heaven above the Earth where you go as a reward for good deeds, and then within the Earth there's He*l, which is both a place of punishment for bad deeds and the place where demons live.  (Some Christians similarly interpret these places as existing in separate Universes or dimensions.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But my question is, where did Christianity get the idea that the place of punishment is the same as the place of demons?  As a Hindu, I find this idea strange, because why would demons, who delight in doing evil, be the ones who administer punishment to those who do evil?  Punishing evil-doers seems like the kind of thing an agent of good would do.  Has there been any secular scholarship on how this idea developed?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Christian conception of the afterlife is said to have borrowed a lot from Greek mythology, but I don't think the ancient Greeks saw the underworld as a place of demons.  So this idea must have come from somewhere else.  Does it come from the notion that demons are fallen angels, punished for their rebellion against God by being cast out of heaven and sent to the same place that humans would later be sent to when they committed sins?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11112" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2729" RevisionGUID="af5207e0-af5c-4313-bb95-f38ee42b418e" CreationDate="2017-07-14T03:27:45.837" UserId="14" Text="How did Christianity come to equate the place of punishment and the place of demons?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11113" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2729" RevisionGUID="af5207e0-af5c-4313-bb95-f38ee42b418e" CreationDate="2017-07-14T03:27:45.837" UserId="14" Text="|mythical-creatures|christianity|hindu|history|afterlife|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11114" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2730" RevisionGUID="23754828-bf86-448d-9b42-a46380804566" CreationDate="2017-07-14T08:54:50.120" UserId="57" Text="The word γλαυκῶπις shares its root with γλαύξ, the word for owl. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Owls are known for their large and distinctive eyes, which are adapted for low light hunting. Thus, I believe the epithet is a comment on Athena's perceptiveness, the goddess of wisdom can see through the dark. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11115" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2730" RevisionGUID="3fce0f8a-3b8c-4088-9fae-9bebf786707d" CreationDate="2017-07-14T09:07:33.437" UserId="57" Comment="added 155 characters in body" Text="The word γλαυκῶπις shares its root with γλαύξ, the word for owl. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Owls are known for their large and distinctive eyes, which are adapted for low light hunting. Thus, I believe the epithet is a comment on Athena's perceptiveness, telling us that the goddess of wisdom can see even through the dark. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You may find more information on Athena's association with owls in [Wikipedia][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owl_of_Athena" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11118" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2733" RevisionGUID="c54588f9-e2b1-4d56-b99d-9799314d42ea" CreationDate="2017-07-14T19:41:52.730" UserId="2892" Text="I've always considered [Diomedes][1] the most impressive of the three, which also includes Achilles and big Ajax, because, unlike Achilles, Diomedes is not a demi-god with potentially invulnerable skin (aside from the heel;) and, unlike Ajax, does not possess extraordinary size, which brings benefits such as increased strength and range.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of the three, Diomedes is the only one who survives Troy.  What makes Diomedes special?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diomedes" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11119" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2733" RevisionGUID="c54588f9-e2b1-4d56-b99d-9799314d42ea" CreationDate="2017-07-14T19:41:52.730" UserId="2892" Text="How is Diomedes distinct among the other two &quot;ultimate warriors&quot; of the Achaeans?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11120" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2733" RevisionGUID="c54588f9-e2b1-4d56-b99d-9799314d42ea" CreationDate="2017-07-14T19:41:52.730" UserId="2892" Text="|greek|trojan-war|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11121" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2734" RevisionGUID="712809a4-1af6-40d3-ab82-a88729e27890" CreationDate="2017-07-14T21:18:10.157" UserId="2892" Text="My understanding is that it is indeed a mix of ancient Greek mythology and the Christian mythology of fallen angels. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Christianity itself is heavily influenced by both Greek Mythology (Dionysus/Persephone, Heracles, and even Achilles) and ancient Greek philosophy (Platonism, [catharsis][1] as fear&amp;pity in a Religious context, Elysium.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although there are no demons in the Greek underworld, it is a very depressing place. (I love pagan religions where one dies and simply goes to &quot;hell&quot;, with no talk of redemption;)  You see the same thing in Chinese thought, I think, before Buddhism, and ancestor worship is partly an effort to provide better material conditions in the afterlife, burning money and so forth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Once you have fallen angels, they needs a place to go. Hades/Hell is the most logical location. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is definitely scholarship on this subject.  Here are some academic links:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Biblical Doctrine of Hell][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The History of Heaven and Hell][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Heaven and Hell in Christian Thought][4]&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;[The History and Origins of Satan][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharsis&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/tbhell.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.baylor.edu/ifl/christianreflection/HeavenHellbookreviewWatts.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/heaven-hell/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.iup.edu/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=161917" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11122" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2735" RevisionGUID="8ea94b0c-8c07-4f6f-9cea-0e7577f1be7e" CreationDate="2017-07-15T11:21:48.073" UserId="2774" Text="Sobek is a god that has been worshipped throughout all the Egyptian, from the Old kingdom up to the Ptolemy time. His name in Egyptian is SBK, it is not known the origin. let's also say the term ruler in old egyptian was written crocodile crocodile falcon [ity in old egyptian] making relatively clear that Sobek is not a second zone god, it is a direct embodiment of the power of the pharoah as Horus. Let's see what the Egyptian said:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Old Kingdom&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;The old Kingdom is the time of the Pyramids (forget once and for all those hollywoodian movise depicting Ramses building Pyramids with tons of slaves). The Pyramid texts are a series of incatations found in the pyramids, in hieroglyphs you can find on the internet some translations, and even hieroglyphes, if you can decipher them [the instute of Chicago provides a whole bunch of them]. Here are some texts:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tomb of unis/Unas, 212: Unis has looked at you like Horus looks at&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Isis, Unis has looked at you like Kas-Assigner looks at Selket, Unis&#xD;&#xA;&gt; has looked at you like Sobek looks at Neith, Unis has looked at you&#xD;&#xA;&gt; like Seth looks at the two reconciled gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So clearly Neith is linked as Sobek mother.  Later:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tomb of Unis 222: Unis has come here in advance of the flood’s&#xD;&#xA;&gt; immersion: Unis is Sobek, green of plumage, 86 with alert face and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; raised fore, the splashing one who came from the thigh and tail of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; great goddess in the sunlight.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sobek is green of plumage (An obvious reference to the fat crocodile are green and to the nile fertile covered with vegetation [plumage]). note that green is Egyptian is wAD or wadj, which is used also for vigorous, valiant, energetic, etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tomb of unis 222 Unis has appeared as Sobek, Neith’s son. Unis will eat with his mouth,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Unis will urinate and Unis will copulate with his penis. Unis is lord&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of semen, who takes women from their husbands to the place Unis likes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; according to his heart’s fancy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here we see once again Sobek referred quite clearly as Neith's son, and linked with fertility (male one) and who takes women from their husbands. Which is so clearly an attribute of Sobek. Here is another Sobek thing:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tomb of Pepi 478: My father has inherited from Horus as Horus in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Seal-ring, Seth in the Ennead, Sobek in [Shedit].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So Sobek is not from the Ennead but related to Shedit. What is Shedit? Shedit or Shedet is also called Faiyum or in Greek Krokodilopolis or in Roman Arsinoe, it is and still is an Egyptian city.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tomb of Pepi 523: His face is that of a jackal, his middle is that of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Qebehut: he will give judgment as Sobek in Shedit and as Anubis in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Takhbit&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Takhbit is a site associated with Seth, we don't know where it was situated.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;So Sobek is known during the old Kingdom, obviously as the son of Neith, linked to the crocodiles, the vegetation, the marsh, the semen, the fertility. He is NOT at all from the Enead. And we can clearly see is nature as quite sexual (cosider he takes the wife out of the husband...) and not cool... As the crocodile btw.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Middle Kingdom&#xD;&#xA;--------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Middle Kingdom is arguably less known by people. No more pyramids, and not yet the somptuous building from the new Kindgom... We have lots of texts written in sarcophagus known as &quot;coffin Texts&quot;. Those texts are based on the Pyramid texts, and was written inside the sarcophagus, on urns,, tombs walls, masks, and as time goes by on varius papyrus [papyri for snobs].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Spells 991: To become Sobek. I am the seed which issued from the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; encircling wrapping.  I am he who broke the teeth of him who cut away&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the iron. I am the Lord of strength and might who took&#xD;&#xA;&gt; crocodile-shape. I am the Lord of wrong who lives on woe. I am that crocodile whose tongue was cut out because of the mutilation of Osiris. I am he who puts fear whom the Ennead fear. I am that god who rises in the East and sets in the West, to whom the Niles are given. I am that god whom the eight row. I am Sobek, the rebel who is among you[the gods]; you cannot do anything against me, you spirits or you dead, for I have taken possession of the sky and have taken possession of the earth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;During the middle Kindgom Sobek will become a fairly important god (that is when Krokodilopolis is founded after all), specifically during Amenhamat 3, and by the ay the first attested female Pharaoh is Sobekneferu (see the Sobek). This spell is quite interesting (to say the least). just see that Sobek is clearly refered to not being a member of the Ennead. Not only that but &quot;the 8 row for him&quot;, they 8 are the ogdoad. So we clearly are confronted to a pretty powerful god, depicted as a rebel among the god and fairly over both the &quot;oads&quot;. So we can put Sobek in the place of Ouranous. Old god of immense power and technically a primordial god.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Another interesting spell is the 158 where Sobek is plunging in the Nile to retrieve Horus's sevred hand:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ra said: &quot;This son of Isis is injured by reason of what his  mother&#xD;&#xA;&gt; herself has done to him ; would that we might fetch Sobek from the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; back of the waters, that he may fish them out and so that his mother&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Isis may cause them to grow (again) in their proper place&quot;. And Sobek&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from the back of the waters said: &quot;I have fished and I have sought;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they slipped from  my hand upon the banks of the waters, but I fished&#xD;&#xA;&gt; them up in the end with a  fish-trap&quot;, that is how the fish-trap came&#xD;&#xA;&gt; into being.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is where you see originated Sobek-Horus a pretty important deity iduring Middle Kingdom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;New Kindgom&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;the final time of Egypt (Ramses was from this time, and no pyramids, no hollywood), the new Kingdom is where Egypt will ne at his apogee, most known Pharoah (Seti, Ram(es)ses, Hatchepsut) are from that time. One founding book is the conflict [contending] between Horus and Seth. In the passage i will cite, Re is writing a letter [Toth is the one writing Re cannot write] to Neith.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; To wit: your humble servant, spend all night on Osiris's behalf&#xD;&#xA;&gt; consulting the Two Lands every day, while Sobek endures forever.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Let's translate this passage: Ra, the sun, is vanisghing everyday, so he cannot see what is happening constantly, contrary to both Neith, the sky, and Sobek his son, the Nile. Hence he is asking Neith advice. Which shows also the quite complex relationship between Egyptian gods.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;During the New Kingdom a new entity Sobek-Ra (clearly inspired by Sobek-Horus) will come. Most illustration you find with Sobek and the headdress as a sun is from the late New Kingdom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Set and Sobek&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;Some authors mention that Sobek is the son of Set, just because of the close relationship between Set and the crocodiles [msh in old egyptian, written with an owl then a crocodile]. Notice that Sobek both in Middle and old Kingdom is fairly highly reverred and one as to see that Sobek represent the strength of the crocodile when Set is destructive nature. it is also evident that during the Old kingdom Sobek was less reliable, without being linked with Set.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;conclusion&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sobek is an incredibly old deity worshipped until the very last end of Egypt (around 300 CE). It becomes central during Middle Kingdom in LOTS of story (I skipped a lot of them to keep things simple). He is traditionnaly associated with Horus, Amon or Ra. He is not a part of the &quot;oads&quot; but generally over them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11123" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2736" RevisionGUID="eb033ee7-6590-4946-bbc7-ff31f52de5ff" CreationDate="2017-07-15T13:00:23.077" UserId="1241" Text="If anything early Christianity was well influenced by ancient Jewish culture of the day, including both Jewish laws, traditions, scriptures and mythology. For the most part both the New  and Old Testament are rich sources from which Christians draw their doctrine of hell as a place of punishment and the place of demons. This was also influenced a number of ancient civilizations, including those of Mesopotamia, India, Egypt and Greece, held as part of their mythology the concept of an underworld as the realm of the dead. The Greek philosopher Plato greatly influenced St. Augustine in his thoughts on Christian doctrine on hell.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment. [2 Peter 2:4][1] &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.  [Revelation 20:13-14][2] &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. [Revelation 19:20][3] &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. [Matthew 25:41][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Evangelist St. Luke recounts an interesting story where Jesus performs an exorcism on a group of demons imploring him not to command them to go away into the abyss.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Legion”; for many demons had entered him. They were imploring Him not to command them to go away into the abyss.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now there was a herd of many swine feeding there on the mountain; and the demons implored Him to permit them to enter the swine. And He gave them permission. And the demons came out of the man and entered the swine; and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and was drowned. [The Demoniac Cured][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More interesting may be where both St. Augustine and Dante got their concept or ideas on hell.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The concept of hell as a place of torment predates Virgil as well. A number of ancient civilizations, including those of Mesopotamia, India, Egypt and Greece, held as part of their mythology the concept of an underworld—the realm of the dead. The first-century-B.C.E. Greek geographer and philosopher Strabo discussed the value of such myths, noting that “the states and the lawgivers had sanctioned them as a useful expedient.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; With the rise of Western philosophy at the hands of Socrates and his intellectual heirs Plato and Aristotle, concepts of life, death and the hereafter took on new dimensions. In the East, too, the afterlife continued to stir the imagination. Strabo remarked on a group of Eastern philosophers who “weave in myths, like Plato, about the immortality of the soul and the judgments in Hades and other things of this kind” (Geography 15.1.59).&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Plato (ca. 428–347 B.C.E.) became a key figure in the development of these ideas.** His name appears frequently in the writings of Augustine, who noted that the Greek scholar had “perfected philosophy” and that he “is justly preferred to all the other philosophers of the Gentiles.” Though the bishop by no means endorsed all of Plato’s ideas, he did hold a number of his philosophical opinions in high regard—“opinions sometimes favorable to the true religion, which our faith takes up and defends” (City of God 8.4). - [Hell: Origins of an Idea][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.biblestudytools.com/2-peter/2-4.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.biblestudytools.com/revelation/passage/?q=revelation%2020:13-14&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://Revelation%2019:20&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.biblestudytools.com/matthew/25-41.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%208%3A28-34%2CLuke%208%3A26-37&amp;version=NASB&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.vision.org/visionmedia/origin-of-hell/41044.aspx" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11124" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2737" RevisionGUID="715a04ba-c21b-4e28-a461-f35d597c37ae" CreationDate="2017-07-15T14:45:37.880" UserId="3985" Text="I tried to look for information on them, but I can't find anything. Are they just strong pieces of armor or do they grant him special abilities?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11125" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2737" RevisionGUID="715a04ba-c21b-4e28-a461-f35d597c37ae" CreationDate="2017-07-15T14:45:37.880" UserId="3985" Text="What do all the treasures Sun Wukong got from the Dragon Kings do?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11126" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2737" RevisionGUID="715a04ba-c21b-4e28-a461-f35d597c37ae" CreationDate="2017-07-15T14:45:37.880" UserId="3985" Text="|chinese|journey-to-the-west|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11128" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2729" RevisionGUID="97c4446f-3091-416f-81a2-fe17e5d30fb4" CreationDate="2017-07-15T22:34:11.413" UserId="1317" Comment="Formatting and links" Text="In Hinduism, the cosmology works roughly like this: there's Earth; there are worlds above the Earth called ***[Swargas]( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svarga)*** where you go as a reward for good deeds; there are worlds under the Earth called ***[Narakas](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naraka_(Hinduism))*** where you go as a punishment for bad deeds; and finally there're realms within the Earth called ***[Patalas](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patala)*** where the demons dwell. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Some Hindus interpret these worlds as existing in separate Universes or dimensions rather than just spatially separated from Earth.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But in Christianity, things work somewhat differently: there's Earth, there's Heaven above the Earth where you go as a reward for good deeds, and then within the Earth there's He*l, which is both a place of punishment for bad deeds and the place where demons live.  (Some Christians similarly interpret these places as existing in separate Universes or dimensions.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But my question is, where did Christianity get the idea that the place of punishment is the same as the place of demons?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; As a Hindu, I find this idea strange, because why would demons, who delight in doing evil, be the ones who administer punishment to those who do evil?  Punishing evil-doers seems like the kind of thing an agent of good would do.  Has there been any secular scholarship on how this idea developed?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Christian conception of the afterlife is said to have borrowed a lot from Greek mythology, but I don't think the ancient Greeks saw the underworld as a place of demons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So this idea must have come from somewhere else.  Does it come from the notion that demons are fallen angels, punished for their rebellion against God by being cast out of heaven and sent to the same place that humans would later be sent to when they committed sins?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11129" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2729" RevisionGUID="97c4446f-3091-416f-81a2-fe17e5d30fb4" CreationDate="2017-07-15T22:34:11.413" Comment="Proposed by 1317 approved by 14 edit id of 453" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11130" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2738" RevisionGUID="96e0ec21-b692-44b5-8704-901b9f03d3b2" CreationDate="2017-07-16T06:11:28.910" UserId="3617" Text="Antithetical to Ares, Athena (equally patron deity of warfare) is slow to anger. She is not impulsive, brash, impudent. She is prudent, indeed wisdom incarnate. She's not born of the carnal impulse.  Rather than think of Athena as an aspect of Zeus, it might be more fruitful to consider each deity an anthropomorphic aspect of the human experience. She represents our faculty of wisdom in action, probably best expressed as &quot;prudence&quot;. This faculty not only wins wars, it ensures that warfare is the correct course to begin with, i.e., that the war is just. It is not without significance that Athena is the patron deity of Greece's capital city: what better than the principle of prudent protection to oversee a city?  There is also a fascinating interplay between she and whom she bests to become patron deity of Athens - Poseidon - since each represents a gender inversion of typical symbology. Athena, though female, represents the masculine principle of combat, and Poseidon, though male, represents the oceanic expanse. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11133" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2739" RevisionGUID="a20d7c89-a833-4bab-9acf-a0ad6da313fa" CreationDate="2017-07-16T18:50:14.793" UserId="3982" Text="Seems like he was always asleep, until Odin created the world out of his body.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He drank the milk of the cow Auðumbla, and he is illustrated to be conscious while doing so, but that need not be. Jotun are spontaneously created from his armpits, it is not clear he created them. And though he is shown as awake when he was killed by some illustrations, I did not find language anywhere that says he was awake and he fought back.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My research is limited to wikipedia and online sources, hoping for some input from experts." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11134" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2739" RevisionGUID="a20d7c89-a833-4bab-9acf-a0ad6da313fa" CreationDate="2017-07-16T18:50:14.793" UserId="3982" Text="Was Ymir ever awake?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11135" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2739" RevisionGUID="a20d7c89-a833-4bab-9acf-a0ad6da313fa" CreationDate="2017-07-16T18:50:14.793" UserId="3982" Text="|norse|creation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11136" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2734" RevisionGUID="26c2320e-e7d9-45ea-a48f-5836013e6f33" CreationDate="2017-07-16T21:32:43.333" UserId="2892" Comment="added a link to the Odyssey to demonstrate the unpleasantness of Hades" Text="My understanding is that it is indeed a mix of ancient Greek mythology and the Christian mythology of fallen angels. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Christianity itself is heavily influenced by both Greek Mythology (Dionysus/Persephone, Heracles, and even Achilles) and ancient Greek philosophy (Platonism, [catharsis][1] as fear&amp;pity in a Religious context, Elysium.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although there are no demons in the Greek underworld, it is a very depressing place, where drinking blood is one of the few reliefs from an eternal limbo of forgetfulness and woe:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But when with vows and prayers I had made supplication to the tribes of the dead, I took the sheep and cut their throats over the pit, and the dark blood ran forth. Then there gathered from out of Erebus the spirits of those that are dead, brides, and unwedded youths, and toil-worn old men, and tender maidens with hearts yet new to sorrow,  and many, too, that had been wounded with bronze-tipped spears, men slain in fight, wearing their blood-stained armour. These came thronging in crowds about the pit from every side, with a wondrous cry; and pale fear seized me.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Odyssey XI][2]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(I love pagan religions where one dies and simply goes to &quot;hell&quot;, with no talk of redemption.  You see the same thing in Chinese thought, I think, before Buddhism, and ancestor worship is partly an effort to provide better material conditions in the afterlife, burning money and so forth.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Once you have fallen angels, they needs a place to go. Hades/Hell is the most logical location. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is definitely scholarship on this subject.  Here are some academic links:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Biblical Doctrine of Hell][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The History of Heaven and Hell][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Heaven and Hell in Christian Thought][5]&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;[The History and Origins of Satan][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharsis&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D11%3Acard%3D1&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/tbhell.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.baylor.edu/ifl/christianreflection/HeavenHellbookreviewWatts.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/heaven-hell/&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.iup.edu/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=161917" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11137" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2740" RevisionGUID="1cd3ff20-53f1-4894-a3ab-0e17e6cd96d1" CreationDate="2017-07-17T00:31:50.830" UserId="292" Text="It is true that he created other giants spontaneously, from the sweat of his armpit, and from between his feet (same idea). However, the Prose Edda (ch. 8) tells us that the cow Audhumla fed him with her milk, and while he could have been passively fed like a patient on a drip, it seems unlikely. So presumably he was awake at least some of the time." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11139" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2741" RevisionGUID="d0ccb590-2064-41a6-bf53-1bd9d78e9d9e" CreationDate="2017-07-17T10:48:07.687" UserId="3987" Text="In Völuspa 2, when describing how she was fostered by giants in the beginning of time, the völva says that she remembers &quot;mjötvið mæran, fyr mold neðan&quot; (the glorious measuring-tree in the earth below). This probably means that the world tree sprang from the ground as the world was created." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11142" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2734" RevisionGUID="be2198c5-660f-4be2-9f56-036537203903" CreationDate="2017-07-17T19:15:05.003" UserId="2892" Comment="explicated my very sound point on the Greek &amp; Latin influence on the Christian hell as a place of eternal torment" Text="My understanding is that the Christian idea of the underworld is influenced by Greek mythology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Christianity itself may be said to be heavily influenced by both Greek Mythology *(Dionysus/Persephone: Dying resurrected god; Heracles: deified son of Zeus; and even Achilles, who sacrifices himself for the community in an epic where the dignity of the gods is undermined and the dignity of humans is raised;)* and ancient Greek philosophy (Platonism, [catharsis][1] as fear&amp;pity in a religious context, [Elysium][2].)  I'd even go so far as to say segments of Judiasm are influenced by Greek thinking on humanism. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although there are no demons in the Greek underworld, it is a very depressing place, where drinking blood is one of the few pleasures in an eternal limbo of wandering in darkness: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But when with vows and prayers I had made supplication to the tribes of the dead, I took the sheep and cut their throats over the pit, and the dark blood ran forth. Then there gathered from out of Erebus the spirits of those that are dead, brides, and unwedded youths, and toil-worn old men, and tender maidens with hearts yet new to sorrow,  and many, too, that had been wounded with bronze-tipped spears, men slain in fight, wearing their blood-stained armour. These came thronging in crowds about the pit from every side, with a wondrous cry; and pale fear seized me.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Odyssey XI][3]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(I have a great attraction to early pagan religions where one dies and simply goes to &quot;hell&quot;, with no talk of redemption.  You see the same thing in Chinese thought, I think, before Buddhism, and ancestor worship is partly an effort to provide better material conditions in the afterlife, burning money and so forth.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The Greek underworld is a place of binding embodiments of ungovernable, destructive forces&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Tartarus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartarus), a region of the underworld, is where the Titans are bound. Titans could be taken as a type of demon--they are often forces of nature, like the more abstract *[daimones][4]*, or &quot;daemons&quot;, from which the word &quot;demon&quot; is derived. (Christianity, like all Abrahamic religions, casts nature spirits and lesser gods as demons, although in Christianity practiced in certain regions in history, such as the Carribbean, you also have certain pagan gods associated with saints or angels.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The binding and torture of Prometheus is an early precedent for eternal punishment&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Prometheus][5]' punishment is cast as unending, and he is only freed by the intervention of [a son of God, in this case Heracles][6]. (Deus is the most common form of Zeus in Greek literature, and the same word the used in Latin to connote the Abrahamic God.)  Prometheus' punishment is also quite vivid, an element we definitely find in Christian mythology regarding the conception of hell.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Tartarus and Hades are places of eternal punishment for mortals who have transgressed&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most famously, [Sisyphus][7] and [Tantalus][8]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Greek mythology is filled with terrifying avatars of divine retribution, such as the [Furies][9], who act in a demon-like manner to punish mankind. (The Furies were eventually pacified, but the principle is there, and many other instruments of divine vengeance abide.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The Christian conception of Hell is heavily influenced by Dante, who was himself [heavily influenced by Greek and Roman mythology][10], including Charon, Virgil, and a city called Dis, in his [graphic depiction of Hell][11]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Dīs Pater is the anti-sky father, or anti-Deus. The classical deity doesn't have the same degree of nefarious connotation as in Christianity, but is certainly a template. This deity, associated with Pluto, was also the god of wealth, as precious ores are delved from the earth, and as we all know, [wealth was considered problematic in Christian thought][12], with avarice as a principal vice.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm not an expert in Christian demonology, but in terms of casting Hades/Hell as a place of demons, it seems like a logical extension—if you are going to have eternal punishment for mankind, beyond just wandering around in the darkness forever, it makes sense that you would have agents for delivering very specific tortures.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharsis&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elysium&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D11%3Acard%3D1&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemon_(classical_mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus#Hesiod_and_the_Theogony_and_Works_and_Days&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2458/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantalus#Story_of_Tantalus&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erinyes&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://blogs.baruch.cuny.edu/eng2800hma/?p=270&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Comedy#Inferno&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Mark%2010.25&amp;fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0156" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11143" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2743" RevisionGUID="bcfb099f-16f5-430e-88af-8efc82c5ca7e" CreationDate="2017-07-17T19:35:21.657" UserId="2892" Text="In the Greek New Testament, [Hell is referred to by three names][1], two Greek (Hades, Tartarus) and one Hebrew (Gehenna).  But in English, it becomes Hell.  Is this term related to the Norse goddess of the underworld?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/406-use-of-hell-in-the-new-testament-the" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11144" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2743" RevisionGUID="bcfb099f-16f5-430e-88af-8efc82c5ca7e" CreationDate="2017-07-17T19:35:21.657" UserId="2892" Text="How does the Christian Hell come to be called Hell? Is it related to the Norse Hel?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11145" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2743" RevisionGUID="bcfb099f-16f5-430e-88af-8efc82c5ca7e" CreationDate="2017-07-17T19:35:21.657" UserId="2892" Text="|norse|christianity|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11146" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2734" RevisionGUID="d499be69-1293-486f-9885-04afefc8cfc2" CreationDate="2017-07-17T19:38:30.947" UserId="2892" Comment="Added a note on the term for Hell in the New Testament, as further demonstration of the Greek influence" Text="My understanding is that the Christian idea of the underworld is more influenced by Greek mythology than Jewish.  ([In the New Testament, three terms are used for Hell][1], two Greek: Hades, Tartarus; and one Hebrew: Gehenna.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Christianity itself may be said to be heavily influenced by both Greek Mythology *(Dionysus/Persephone: Dying resurrected god; Heracles: deified son of Zeus; and even Achilles, who sacrifices himself for the community in an epic where the dignity of the gods is undermined and the dignity of humans is raised;)* and ancient Greek philosophy (Platonism, [catharsis][2] as fear&amp;pity in a religious context, [Elysium][3].)  I'd even go so far as to say segments of Judiasm are influenced by Greek thinking on humanism. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although there are no demons in the Greek underworld, it is a very depressing place, where drinking blood is one of the few pleasures in an eternal limbo of wandering in darkness: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But when with vows and prayers I had made supplication to the tribes of the dead, I took the sheep and cut their throats over the pit, and the dark blood ran forth. Then there gathered from out of Erebus the spirits of those that are dead, brides, and unwedded youths, and toil-worn old men, and tender maidens with hearts yet new to sorrow,  and many, too, that had been wounded with bronze-tipped spears, men slain in fight, wearing their blood-stained armour. These came thronging in crowds about the pit from every side, with a wondrous cry; and pale fear seized me.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Odyssey XI][4]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(I have a great attraction to early pagan religions where one dies and simply goes to &quot;hell&quot;, with no talk of redemption.  You see the same thing in Chinese thought, I think, before Buddhism, and ancestor worship is partly an effort to provide better material conditions in the afterlife, burning money and so forth.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The Greek underworld is a place of binding embodiments of ungovernable, destructive forces&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Tartarus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartarus), a region of the underworld, is where the Titans are bound. Titans could be taken as a type of demon--they are often forces of nature, like the more abstract *[daimones][5]*, or &quot;daemons&quot;, from which the word &quot;demon&quot; is derived. (Christianity, like all Abrahamic religions, casts nature spirits and lesser gods as demons, although in Christianity practiced in certain regions in history, such as the Carribbean, you also have certain pagan gods associated with saints or angels.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The binding and torture of Prometheus is an early precedent for eternal punishment&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Prometheus][6]' punishment is cast as unending, and he is only freed by the intervention of [a son of God, in this case Heracles][7]. (Deus is the most common form of Zeus in Greek literature, and the same word the used in Latin to connote the Abrahamic God.)  Prometheus' punishment is also quite vivid, an element we definitely find in Christian mythology regarding the conception of hell.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Tartarus and Hades are places of eternal punishment for mortals who have transgressed&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most famously, [Sisyphus][8] and [Tantalus][9]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Greek mythology is filled with terrifying avatars of divine retribution, such as the [Furies][10], who act in a demon-like manner to punish mankind. (The Furies were eventually pacified, but the principle is there, and many other instruments of divine vengeance abide.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The Christian conception of Hell is heavily influenced by Dante, who was himself [heavily influenced by Greek and Roman mythology][11], including Charon, Virgil, and a city called Dis, in his [graphic depiction of Hell][12]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Dīs Pater is the anti-sky father, or anti-Deus. The classical deity doesn't have the same degree of nefarious connotation as in Christianity, but is certainly a template. This deity, associated with Pluto, was also the god of wealth, as precious ores are delved from the earth, and as we all know, [wealth was considered problematic in Christian thought][13], with avarice as a principal vice.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm not an expert in Christian demonology, but in terms of casting Hades/Hell as a place of demons, it seems like a logical extension—if you are going to have eternal punishment for mankind, beyond just wandering around in the darkness forever, it makes sense that you would have agents for delivering very specific tortures.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/406-use-of-hell-in-the-new-testament-the&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharsis&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elysium&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D11%3Acard%3D1&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemon_(classical_mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus#Hesiod_and_the_Theogony_and_Works_and_Days&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2458/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantalus#Story_of_Tantalus&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erinyes&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://blogs.baruch.cuny.edu/eng2800hma/?p=270&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Comedy#Inferno&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Mark%2010.25&amp;fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0156" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11147" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2744" RevisionGUID="32663d6a-cc10-4cb0-ac6c-3696a15367a1" CreationDate="2017-07-17T19:51:46.357" UserId="2892" Text=" - The **cloud walking boots** allow him to fly *(although Wukong doesn't strictly need them to fly, having cultivated formidable powers of his own, and being able to cover 108,000 li in a single leap;)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Likewise with the golden chainmail—Wukong's body subsequently becomes fairly invulnerable during his time in Laozi's eight-way trigram Crucible—but it never hurts to have some extra padding. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I can't recall if the **[phoenix feather cap][1]** granted any special powers, but, in any event, it was subsequently replaced by the gold circlet that [Xuanzan][2]g used to control him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;____________________________________________&#xD;&#xA;The unabridged Journey to the West is filled with detailed descriptions of the magical powers of objects, so it is likely more detail can be found in the text.  (When I get a chance to dig it out, I will re-read the passages and amend my answer:)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%A8ngch%C3%ACz%C7%90jingu%C4%81n&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xuanzang_(Journey_to_the_West)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11148" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2745" RevisionGUID="ffa073bd-0745-4d53-88f1-bbf520519796" CreationDate="2017-07-17T19:57:53.403" UserId="57" Text="In Book IV of his *Commentaries on the Gallic War*, Julius Caesar tells us all Gauls claimed descent from Dis Pater: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 18. All the Gauls assert that they are descended from the god Dis, and say that this tradition has been handed down by the Druids. For that reason they compute the divisions of every season, not by the number of days, but of nights; they keep birthdays and the beginnings of months and years in such an order that the day follows the night. Among the other usages of their life, they differ in this from almost all other nations, that they do not permit their children to approach them openly until they are grown up so as to be able to bear the service of war; and they regard it as indecorous for a son of boyish age to stand in public in the presence of his father. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Gaius Julius Caesar. *Commentaries on the Gallic War*. Translated by W.A. McDevitte and W.S. Bohn.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm assuming this is an instance of interpretatio Romana. Do we know which Celtic god or gods Caesar had in mind?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11149" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2745" RevisionGUID="ffa073bd-0745-4d53-88f1-bbf520519796" CreationDate="2017-07-17T19:57:53.403" UserId="57" Text="Which Celtic god is the equivalent of the Roman Dis Pater?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11150" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2745" RevisionGUID="ffa073bd-0745-4d53-88f1-bbf520519796" CreationDate="2017-07-17T19:57:53.403" UserId="57" Text="|comparative|celtic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11151" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2743" RevisionGUID="46dc04ae-9f9a-49b7-b998-1d020e65c61c" CreationDate="2017-07-17T20:00:15.267" UserId="2892" Comment="amended the question based on Gibet's incredulity :)" Text="In the Greek New Testament, [Hell is referred to by three names][1], two Greek (Hades, Tartarus) and one Hebrew (Gehenna).  But in English, it becomes Hell.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is related to the Old Norse *[hellir][2]*, and proto-Germanic *[hallo][3]*, meaning cavern or enclosed space, but why is this term adopted instead of using the Greek or Hebrew terms?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How do Norse ideas of Hel as a place relate to Christian ideas of Hell?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/406-use-of-hell-in-the-new-testament-the&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=hell&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hel_(being)#Etymology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11152" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2745" RevisionGUID="07d22311-48d8-4c16-9dd0-dc628d6a2614" CreationDate="2017-07-17T20:11:20.160" UserId="57" Comment="added 112 characters in body" Text="In Book IV of his *Commentaries on the Gallic War*, Julius Caesar tells us all Gauls claimed descent from Dis Pater: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 18. All the Gauls assert that they are descended from the god Dis, and say that this tradition has been handed down by the Druids. For that reason they compute the divisions of every season, not by the number of days, but of nights; they keep birthdays and the beginnings of months and years in such an order that the day follows the night. Among the other usages of their life, they differ in this from almost all other nations, that they do not permit their children to approach them openly until they are grown up so as to be able to bear the service of war; and they regard it as indecorous for a son of boyish age to stand in public in the presence of his father. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Gaius Julius Caesar. *Commentaries on the Gallic War*. Translated by W.A. McDevitte and W.S. Bohn.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm assuming this is an instance of *interpretatio Romana*, and the Gauls actually claimed descent from a chthonic Celtic god (or gods?) and not from the Roman god of the underworld. Do we know which Celtic god this might be?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11153" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2746" RevisionGUID="7cacd3f6-fe0f-41e8-a5a7-b94dc00e283f" CreationDate="2017-07-17T23:01:59.277" UserId="292" Text="The two most common candidates are [Cernunnos][1] and [Sucellos][2]. Anne Ross in her book *Pagan Celtic Religion*, and Phyllis Fray Bober in her [paper on Cernunnos][3] both suggest that the god, who has connections to wealth and possibly the underworld, could be the god JC meant.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;Sucellos, especially as Sucellos Silvanus (yet another Roman god) is another candidate, especially because he was a [patron of miners][4] (inscriptions to him have been found in old mines). Sucellos Silvanus was mainly a Gaulish god, but a statue of Sucellos found in German-Celtic territory shows him with a three-headed dog and raven, which suggests Pluto, the god who essentially took over Dis Pater's job.  &#xD;&#xA;On a side note, in Germano-Celtic territory Dis Pater himself was sometimes paired with a Celtic goddess called [Aerecura or Erecura][5]. She was probably seen as similiar to Prosperine, Pluto's bride.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cernunnos&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Sucellus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.jstor.org/stable/501179&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.deomercurio.be/en/silvano.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erecura" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11154" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2747" RevisionGUID="9848ed17-179f-40cc-91c4-e55c456fe8cb" CreationDate="2017-07-17T23:30:41.973" UserId="3947" Text="The word &quot;hell&quot; came into existence sometime before 900 AD/CE. It is from the &quot;Middle [and] Old English hel(l); cognate with Old High German hell(i)a (German Hölle), Old Norse hel, [and] Gothic halja&quot;. [&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;](http://www.dictionary.com/browse/hell?s=t)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Being that the first English translation of the Bible was written (by John Wycliffe) in 1380's,[&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;](http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/) the word hell was already in use by then. Just as the apostles didn't create a new word to describe hell and used common words like Hades and Tartarus, early translators may have decided to use the already common word hell to help the people understand the Scriptures and not be as confused." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11156" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2745" RevisionGUID="ff14355c-740d-46c3-a3a2-d825f340e15d" CreationDate="2017-07-18T08:29:09.397" UserId="57" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="In Book IV of his *Commentaries on the Gallic War*, Julius Caesar tells us all Gauls claimed descent from Dis Pater: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 18\. All the Gauls assert that they are descended from the god Dis, and say that this tradition has been handed down by the Druids. For that reason they compute the divisions of every season, not by the number of days, but of nights; they keep birthdays and the beginnings of months and years in such an order that the day follows the night. Among the other usages of their life, they differ in this from almost all other nations, that they do not permit their children to approach them openly until they are grown up so as to be able to bear the service of war; and they regard it as indecorous for a son of boyish age to stand in public in the presence of his father. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Gaius Julius Caesar. *Commentaries on the Gallic War*. Translated by W.A. McDevitte and W.S. Bohn.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm assuming this is an instance of *interpretatio Romana*, and the Gauls actually claimed descent from a chthonic Celtic god (or gods?) and not from the Roman god of the underworld. Do we know which Celtic god this might be?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11157" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2749" RevisionGUID="1c0ba248-14f1-41af-b46d-f701c1e912bd" CreationDate="2017-07-18T18:07:27.370" UserId="2892" Text="One of the most popular depictions of the Christian Devil is having horns.  From whence does this derive? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For instance, [this answer suggests a connection between Dīs Pater and Cernunnos][1], a &quot;horned god&quot;, and there is a [horned form of Dionysus][2] which could represent certain aspects of the dying/resurrected God not consistent with Christian thought.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2746/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus#Bull.2C_serpent_and_phallus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11158" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2749" RevisionGUID="1c0ba248-14f1-41af-b46d-f701c1e912bd" CreationDate="2017-07-18T18:07:27.370" UserId="2892" Text="How does the Devil come to be horned?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11159" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2749" RevisionGUID="1c0ba248-14f1-41af-b46d-f701c1e912bd" CreationDate="2017-07-18T18:07:27.370" UserId="2892" Text="|greek|celtic|christian|the-devil|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11161" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2749" RevisionGUID="299a71c7-ab87-422b-baac-9205f3324a54" CreationDate="2017-07-18T18:14:09.473" UserId="2892" Comment="added a pic and a note on the Michelangelo Moses" Text="One of the most popular depictions of the Christian Devil is having horns.  From whence does this derive? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![The altarpiece below from 1471-75 shows the Devil with Saint Wolfgang, Bishop of Regensburg (Bavaria), a 10th century figure.][1]][1]&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;altarpiece by Michael Pacher depicting the Devil with Saint Wolfgang, Bishop of Regensburg&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For instance, [this answer suggests a connection between Dīs Pater and Cernunnos][2], a &quot;horned god&quot;, and there is a [horned form of Dionysus][3] which could represent certain aspects of the dying/resurrected God not consistent with Christian thought.  ([Michelangelo's sculpture of Moses][4] also famously has horns...) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/eLW0g.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2746/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus#Bull.2C_serpent_and_phallus&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/Moses_Michaelangelo_September_2015-1.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11162" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2750" RevisionGUID="1773746b-8367-4e86-9fd0-79db9d06980b" CreationDate="2017-07-18T19:15:51.797" UserId="2892" Text="Since no one wanted to jump on this, and I've had a few days to think on it, I'll posit an answer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Diomedes is distinct in that he is the only hero at Troy to have wounded a god:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Diomedes, good at the war-cry, drave at Ares with his spear of bronze, and Pallas Athene sped it mightily against his nethermost belly, where he was girded with his taslets. There did he thrust and smite him, rending the fair flesh, and forth he drew the spear again. Then brazen Ares bellowed loud as nine thousand warriors&quot; &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: Iliad 5.856 et seq. (Murray, 1924)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;His ability to best the God of War on the field of battle is due to the patronage of Athena, but it seems to me what makes Diomedes distinct, and allows him to survive the war, are &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - the qualities that make him Athena's favorite&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is notable that the other favorite of Athena was Odysseus, who was not always strictly honorable, but was unflaggingly cunning—**the Goddess of Wisdom favors the strategists**.  Wisdom may be said to be more important than honor or any other attribute, certainly to the Ancient Greeks, who gave us Socrates.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Diomedes was held to be a wise and effective ruler in addition to being a gifted commander and valiant warrior.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By contrast, we think of Achilles strictly as a fighter, wholly driven by honor.  *&quot;Sing, Goddess, of the rage of Achilles&quot;* in re: the dispute over [Briseis][1], a slight to Achilles' honor that is the jumping off point for the epic.  Achilles in partly defined by his choice of fame over life, knowing that if he goes to Troy, he never leaves. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ajax is likewise brought down by his inflexibility—the loss of Achilles armor to Odysseus is a slight to great to bear, resulting in his suicide.  Ajax remains true to himself, but nonetheless was known for his brawn, not his cunning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Diomedes was more balanced.  He could go to extremes but knew when to pull back.  This discernment was useful, especially when confronted by Apollo *(who was perhaps less loved by Zeus than Athena, but equal in status)*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Diomedes, good at the war-cry, leapt upon Aeneas, though well he knew that Apollo himself held forth his arms above him; yet had he no awe even of the great god, but was still eager to slay Aeneas and strip from him his glorious armour. Thrice then he leapt upon him, furiously fain to slay him, and thrice did Apollo beat back his shining shield. But when for the fourth time he rushed upon him like a god, then with a terrible cry spake to him Apollo that worketh afar: “Bethink thee, son of Tydeus, and give place, neither be thou minded to be like of spirit with the gods; seeing in no wise of like sort is the race of immortal gods and that of men who walk upon the earth.” So spake he, and the son of Tydeus gave ground a scant space backward, avoiding the wrath of Apollo that smiteth afar.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: ibid. [5.432 et seq.][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Briseis&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D5%3Acard%3D416" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11167" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2752" RevisionGUID="5f19b23b-1078-4d0b-b310-dfe601bec7f8" CreationDate="2017-07-18T23:08:40.783" UserId="292" Text="It depends, as Yannis said, on the translation. [Wikipedia][1] says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Homer's epic works, Athena's most common epithet is Glaukopis&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (γλαυκῶπις), which usually is translated as, &quot;bright-eyed&quot; or &quot;with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gleaming eyes&quot;. The word is a combination of glaukós (γλαυκός, meaning&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;gleaming, silvery&quot;, and later, &quot;bluish-green&quot; or &quot;gray&quot;) and ṓps (ὤψ,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;eye, face&quot;). It is interesting to note that glaúx (γλαύξ, &quot;little&#xD;&#xA;&gt; owl&quot;) is from the same root, presumably according to some, because of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the bird's own distinctive eyes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athena" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11168" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2461" RevisionGUID="8669e528-815a-4747-9e6c-8ea884fb640a" CreationDate="2017-07-19T08:12:35.507" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|comparative|christianity|dionysus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11169" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="482" RevisionGUID="0d6af38b-de20-4a02-b7ea-bc5d3d95b653" CreationDate="2017-07-19T08:13:27.263" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|dionysus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11170" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2180" RevisionGUID="163ac686-aa2d-429a-ba5c-422f231f1ef2" CreationDate="2017-07-19T08:13:32.950" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|resurrection|orphism|dionysus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11171" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="163" RevisionGUID="602835d5-0454-4289-b355-e172b892f1a6" CreationDate="2017-07-19T08:13:42.310" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|roman|orphism|dionysus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11172" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2753" RevisionGUID="848171b5-e39c-4cbb-a5f2-72e7909677c7" CreationDate="2017-07-19T09:28:28.497" UserId="57" Text="The story appears to be a variant of the [sparagmos][1] of the Orphic Zagreus, with the difference being that Dionysus was in bull-calf form when he was slaughtered. Wikipedia mentions the story ([1][2], [2][3]), referencing this paragraph in Walter Burkert's *Greek Religion*: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dionysus is an exception. In the cult hymn from Elis he is invoked to come as a bull, &quot;with bull foot raging&quot;. Quite frequently he is portrayed with bull horns, and in Kyzikos he has a tauromorphic cult image. There is also a myth which tells how he was slaughtered as a bull-calf and eaten by the impious creatures of old, the Titans. In the Classical period, however, this myth is suppressed and kept secret since it is scarcely compatible with the public image of the divine.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Burkert, Walter, Greek Religion, 1985 pp. 64&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately, this is all I could find about it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do we know of a fuller version, one that would hopefully explain why Dionysus was in bull-calf form? Was it perhaps part of his punishment, or event an attempt to lessen his suffering? If a fuller version does not exist, do we at least know how old the story is?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreus#The_sparagmos&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_bull#Greece&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus#Bull.2C_serpent_and_phallus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11173" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2753" RevisionGUID="848171b5-e39c-4cbb-a5f2-72e7909677c7" CreationDate="2017-07-19T09:28:28.497" UserId="57" Text="Story of Dionysus being slaughtered as a bull-calf and eaten by the Titans?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11174" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2753" RevisionGUID="848171b5-e39c-4cbb-a5f2-72e7909677c7" CreationDate="2017-07-19T09:28:28.497" UserId="57" Text="|greek|dionysus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11176" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2754" RevisionGUID="0ad0488b-6aaf-47bc-b93a-b0ade7f36c38" CreationDate="2017-07-19T15:17:26.023" UserId="2892" Text=" - The Sumerian tradition has a hell with demons. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Although this material predates the time of Jesus by millennia, unlike the ancient Greek religion which was contemporaneous, it is surely an influence on the Hebrew side of the equation as Abraham is said to have come from of Ur.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The story of [Inanna][1] features demons from the underworld. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's harder to find this source material online, but Penguin has a nice edition called [Poems of Heaven and Hell][2] which includes Inanna's descent.  You can find an overview of the story at [Hell-On-Line][3]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Baal][4] is also a template for one form of the devil&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Part of Baal cycle involves descent into and return from hell as part of a fertility cycle, but with the decline of paganism in the region, he seems to be relegated to the underworld full-time as [Beelzebub][5]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inanna#Descent_into_the_Underworld&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.amazon.com/Heaven-Ancient-Mesopotamia-Penguin-Classics/dp/0140442499&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.hell-on-line.org/TextsANE.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal#Christianity&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beelzebub" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11177" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2755" RevisionGUID="1352e1b4-0a8a-485d-9826-188108adc97f" CreationDate="2017-07-19T16:24:51.383" UserId="3373" Text="Appreciative of your research, I share the &quot;metaphore view&quot; with the other replies, yet not discrediting it as a true meta-physical phenomena; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You may in essence locate any tree as a &quot;world-tree&quot; with more credibility around sacred sites, that reified the superb idea around a particular ash-tree (for example). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Just like in the case of bionic statues of Deities, they &quot;represented&quot; the Deity, but also served as a portal to this deity, to impress it and receive impressions. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus sacralized territory around a tree is located on a linear historical time, but the World Tree, the Axis Mundi centrality is timeless, and is located in a-linear time-less place. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus the relevant holy idea is indeed represented in the tree that you found, if that answer is satisfactory to you. You  have found the &quot;World Tree&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You may affirm it by travelling there and sacralizing the bound with the a-historical tree, if you like, if this interpretation is special to you, or and you can travel to any other sacred place (considered so by the ancients), or a place that you sacralize yourself. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You then hypostize the tree into the numinal a-historical Axis Mundi: Henceforth that is your shamanic place of travelling, no other. Otherwise Drottars (Druids) and Shamans would have to flock around a particular tree, but indeed they picked a spot for rituals and made it ceremonial through their deep understanding, intuitive if you like of the phenomena.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Otherwise we attempt to find &quot;the real ark&quot;, &quot;the real Irminsul&quot;, &quot;the real tree&quot;, &quot;the real abstract&quot; forever. Anyway, if you still are intent on locating it: I wish you the greatest of fortunes, if this is the one - I congratulate you. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;BTW. I once wanted to locate the place of the battle of Aesir from the Eddas, there is a Scandinavian constellation named &quot;Asar&quot;. I assumed the battle was a true happening, but in the Stars, that we later relate to on Earth in the Solar System in stories and sages, but that is a far-fetched theory. Is it true? I do not know. But it comforts me, and makes me validate my discoveries, thus I hold on to it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Salutations!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;223." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11178" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1752" RevisionGUID="08ca1b6e-a285-4cac-bb6b-a356074cca78" CreationDate="2017-07-19T17:39:22.173" UserId="2703" Comment="added 2393 characters in body" Text="*TL;DR*&#xD;&#xA;While the cow has always been treated with veneration in Hindu mythology and literature, the roots of the *sacred* status that it now enjoys are primarily because it was a convenient symbol of mobilization, first to counter the rising tide of Buddhism and then in the nationalist pre-independence movement. Rational arguments based on the economic value of the cow to a rising India were primarily an afterthought justifying more primitive religious and cultural arguments-- though the cow was a great source of wealth and value for millennia. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*The long version*: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A few snippets from the past:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Mythology and Literature**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [Puranas](http://www.bharatadesam.com/scriptures/puranas.php), the earth goddess Prithvi (a cow) was milked by Prithu to end a famine and provide food for humans. It also mentions [Kamadhenu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamadhenu), the mother of cows, the source of prosperity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Rigveda](http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/) calls cows *aghnya*- &quot;that which may not be slaughtered&quot;. Several stanzas indicate that cows were treated with reverence and should be protected. This is possibly because cows were heavily relied upon- for their products (dairy, dung)- and treated as the caretaker of the home- *gau mata*. [A vast array of words](https://books.google.com/books?lr=&amp;id=t6TVLlPvuMAC&amp;q=cow#v=snippet&amp;q=cow&amp;f=false) were dedicated to refer to them in different stages. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Many stories revolve around Krishna, a.k.a. Gopala &quot;the cow protector&quot;. Cow milk is stated as Sattvic (i.e. cleansing).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**History**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`Vedic period: 1500 - 500 BCE` (sourced from Brown)&#xD;&#xA;Cattle were a measure of wealth, and a key part of war booty. The usefulness of the cow/ox in terms of milk, flesh and agricultural assistance are stressed in the Rig Veda. Cattle had ritualistic significance too; they were the main sacrificial animals, and their products were used as offerings. Scholars debate whether the cow is beginning to attain inviolability, for all but the Brahmans. The end of the Vedic period coincides with the rising popularity of the Ahimsa (do no harm) philosophy, as well as an increased literalism in the sanctity of cows, by some records.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`500 BCE - 500 AD` &#xD;&#xA;Manu's laws forbid the eating of consecrated flesh (that which is not sacrificed); though he stresses the value of the cow and lists her many virtues, this still seems like a part of the broader Ahimsa philosophy. *He who eats the meat of any animal in this world will be eaten by that same animal in yonder world*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [legend](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellalan#The_Legend_of_Manu_Needhi_Cholan), a Chola king who was a follower on the Manusmriti executed his son to provide justice to a cow.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Mahabharata (~400 BCE) states that *he who kills a cow lives as many years in hell as there are hairs on the cow's body*, basically urging you to shave the cow before killing it. Both Ahimsa and cow worship are treated as established doctrine and extolled as desirable.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Arthashastra (~200 BCE) recognizes meat-selling as legal, but states that cattle were not to be slaughtered, possibly unless they were economically worthless.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By the 4th century AD (Gupta dynasty), the sanctity of the cow is established in Brahmanical circles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Much of what happens between 500-1500 AD is similar-- the cow is venerated in Hindu kingdoms, but is often sacrificed or killed to honour guests. Beef-eating is largely treated as a sin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`1500 - 1857` (Mughal Empire)&#xD;&#xA;During the Muslim invasion, Hindus are recorded as often being shocked by cow-slaughter. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the 1600s, Maratha (Hindu) chieftain Shivaji treated cow protection as a key part of his rule.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`1857`&#xD;&#xA;Rumors of cartridges being greased with cow fat lead to a Sepoy mutiny.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`1882`&#xD;&#xA;Swami Dayananda Saraswati establishes Arya Samaj and publishes *Gokarunanidhi* where cow slaughter is opposed as anti-Hindu act. They are helped by the rise in easy transport (trains, buses) and printing presses to spread the message. The first *Gaurakshini sabha* (cow protection society) is set up in Punjab.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`1888`&#xD;&#xA;The Allahabad High Court rules that cows are not sacred as per section 295 of the IPC and hence their slaughter was not illegal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`1893`&#xD;&#xA;An estimated 31-45 riots over six months broke out between Hindus and Muslims, mainly in present-day UP, but also in other parts of the country. 107 people were killed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`1930s-1948` Gandhi - &quot;The central fact of Hinduism is cow protection&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`1950` The Directive Principles of the Constitution of India suggest that cow slaughter should be abolished.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`1966` &quot;Hindu&quot; organizations led by a fasting Shankaracharya demand a ban on cow slaughter as per the (unenforced Directive Principle). A mob of allegedly over 10000 people tried to storm the parliament, eventually rampaging through New Delhi, leading to a 48-hour curfew.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All of this and more is described in great detail in:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Mukul, Akshaya. Gita Press and the Making of Hindu India. HarperCollins Publishers India, 2015.](https://books.google.com/books?id=BOhrCgAAQBAJ)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Further Analysis**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Brown, W. Norman. &quot;The sanctity of the cow in Hinduism.&quot; The Madras University Journal 28.29 (1957).](http://www.epw.in/system/files/pdf/1964_16/5-6-7/the_sanctity_of_the_cow_in_hinduism.pdf)-- cows were offered in sacrifices, and were not inviolable in Vedic times.  This is an excellend, short reference that answers the bulk of this question (valid until 1964).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Jha, Dwijendra Narayan. The myth of the holy cow. Verso, 2002.](https://truthabouthinduism.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/the-myth-of-holy-cow-d-n-jha.pdf) deals with the early history, but glosses over medieval India.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ambedkar, Bhimrao R. &quot;Untouchability, the Dead Cow and the Brahmin.&quot; Collected Works of BR Ambedkar 7 (1979): 185-207.](http://navayana.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/jhaexcerpt.pdf) -- *For the Brahmin everyday was a beef-steak day. The Brahmins were therefore the greatest beef-eaters* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Describes how the roots of Brahmins vegetarianism lies in the conflict between Buddhism and Brahmanism. Eventually, the &quot;holy cow&quot; became a cultural symbol for mobilizing Hindu nationalists.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You may also wish to read [this post](http://theiskra.weebly.com/concepts-and-debates/cow-caste-and-communalism) describing how the cow gained political significance in modern India. [This paper](http://www.jstor.org/stable/1178915?seq=1) describes a debate on whether the cow is sacred for &quot;irrational&quot; or &quot;calorific&quot; reasons." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11179" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2756" RevisionGUID="b7c68e3c-8cd4-45aa-bc90-a54ad0808ba5" CreationDate="2017-07-19T17:39:38.110" UserId="1177" Text="The currently preferred view of Greek etymologists is that γλαύξ &quot;owl&quot; and the colour-adjective γλαυκός (in Homer the colour of the sea, later generally “grey”) are not etymologically connected. If γλαυκῶπις is connected with the former, then it means &quot;with the eyes of an owl&quot;, not &quot;grey-eyed&quot;. The owl is Athena’s special animal; she is generally represented with an owl on her shoulder.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11180" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2734" RevisionGUID="94b4fa47-6ec0-4b6e-a402-83c34c4b305b" CreationDate="2017-07-19T20:53:35.763" UserId="2892" Comment="added 61 characters in body" Text="My understanding is that the Christian idea of the underworld is more influenced by Greek mythology than Jewish.  ([In the New Testament, three terms are used for Hell][1], two Greek: Hades, Tartarus; and one Hebrew: Gehenna.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Christianity itself may be said to be heavily influenced by both Greek Mythology *(Dionysus/Persephone: Dying resurrected god; Heracles: deified son of Zeus; and even Achilles, who sacrifices himself for the community in an epic where the dignity of the gods is undermined and the dignity of humans is raised;)* and ancient Greek philosophy (Platonism, Socrates' acceptance of his death sentence,&#xD;&#xA; [catharsis][2] as fear&amp;pity in a religious context, [Elysium][3].)  I'd even go so far as to say that segments of Judiasm are influenced by *Greek* thinking on humanism. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although there are no demons *per se* in the Greek underworld, it is a very depressing place, where drinking blood is one of the few pleasures in an eternal limbo of wandering in darkness: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But when with vows and prayers I had made supplication to the tribes of the dead, I took the sheep and cut their throats over the pit, and the dark blood ran forth. Then there gathered from out of Erebus the spirits of those that are dead, brides, and unwedded youths, and toil-worn old men, and tender maidens with hearts yet new to sorrow, and many, too, that had been wounded with bronze-tipped spears, men slain in fight, wearing their blood-stained armour. These came thronging in crowds about the pit from every side, with a wondrous cry; and pale fear seized me.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Odyssey XI][4]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(I have a great attraction to early pagan religions where one dies and simply goes to &quot;hell&quot;, with no talk of redemption.  You see the same thing in Chinese thought, I think, before Buddhism, and ancestor worship is partly an effort to provide better material conditions in the afterlife, burning money and so forth.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The Greek underworld is a place of binding embodiments of ungovernable, destructive forces&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Tartarus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartarus), a region of the underworld, is where the Titans are bound. Titans could be taken as a type of demon--they are often forces of nature, like the more abstract *[daimones][5]*, or &quot;daemons&quot;, from which the word &quot;demon&quot; is derived. (Christianity, like all Abrahamic religions, casts nature spirits and lesser gods as demons, although in Christianity practiced in certain regions in history, such as the Carribbean, you also have certain pagan gods associated with saints or angels.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The binding and torture of Prometheus is an early precedent for eternal punishment&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Prometheus][6]' punishment is cast as unending, and he is only freed by the intervention of [a son of God, in this case Heracles][7]. (Deus is the most common form of Zeus in Greek literature, and the same word the used in Latin to connote the Abrahamic God.)  Prometheus' punishment is also quite vivid, an element we definitely find in Christian mythology regarding the conception of hell.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Tartarus and Hades are places of eternal punishment for mortals who have transgressed&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most famously, [Sisyphus][8] and [Tantalus][9]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Greek mythology is filled with terrifying avatars of divine retribution, such as the [Furies][10], who act in a demon-like manner to punish mankind. (The Furies were eventually pacified, but the principle is there, and many other instruments of divine vengeance abide.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The Christian conception of Hell is heavily influenced by Dante, who was himself [heavily influenced by Greek and Roman mythology][11], including Charon, Virgil, and a city called Dis, in his [graphic depiction of Hell][12]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Dīs Pater is the anti-sky father, or anti-Deus. The classical deity doesn't have the same degree of nefarious connotation as in Christianity, but is certainly a template. This deity, associated with Pluto, was also the god of wealth, as precious ores are delved from the earth, and as we all know, [wealth was considered problematic in Christian thought][13], with avarice as a principal vice.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm not an expert in Christian demonology, but in terms of casting Hades/Hell as a place of demons, it seems like a logical extension—if you are going to have eternal punishment for mankind, beyond just wandering around in the darkness forever, it makes sense that you would have agents for delivering very specific tortures.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/406-use-of-hell-in-the-new-testament-the&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharsis&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elysium&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D11%3Acard%3D1&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemon_(classical_mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus#Hesiod_and_the_Theogony_and_Works_and_Days&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2458/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantalus#Story_of_Tantalus&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erinyes&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://blogs.baruch.cuny.edu/eng2800hma/?p=270&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Comedy#Inferno&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Mark%2010.25&amp;fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0156" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11181" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2757" RevisionGUID="847e2b9b-71dd-4333-97e9-8368dfb2bec3" CreationDate="2017-07-19T23:22:42.063" UserId="292" Text="The Holy Spirit seems the most likely answer. Geoffrey of Monmouth would have been familiar with the story of [Penetecost][1], in which the Holy Spirit gives the apostles the ability to speak in different languages.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;St. Peter then preached to the various nationalities assembled in Jerusalem, saying:  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall&#xD;&#xA;&gt; prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dream dreams:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will&#xD;&#xA;&gt; pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ([King James Bible][2], Acts II: 17-8)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.ajc.com/news/national/what-pentecost-sunday-and-how-celebrated/Z1gTvKTl9ViDgCKptmZYON/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://biblehub.com/acts/2.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11182" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2758" RevisionGUID="15796634-1dad-4a47-a38f-aaf316100041" CreationDate="2017-07-19T23:57:22.530" UserId="292" Text="Although it's Manannan's sword, [Lugh wears it][1] in the story of *The Fate of the Children of Tuireann*. He has Manannan's horse, lorica (breastplate) and his sword, probably because Manannan fostered him.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;Two translations, one by [Eugene O'Curry][1] and another by [P.W. Joyce][2] both mention this, so presumably there's the source. (I found [these sources here][3], by the way.) I didn't have much luck until I checked [James MacKillop][4]'s dictionary of Celtic mythology and discovered that the sword was called Frecraid as well as Fragarach. If you Google the latter you get more useful hits.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;According to the book *[Myths and Legends of the Celts][5]*, Lugh got the sword in Tir na mBeo, the otherworld called the Land of the Living, but it doesn't give a source.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.ca/books?id=y5MEAAAAQAAJ&amp;pg=RA1-PA159&amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=c98YAAAAYAAJ&amp;pg=PA51&amp;hl=ja&amp;source=gbs_toc_r&amp;cad=3#v=onepage&amp;q=Answerer&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://home.ix.netcom.com/~kiyoweap/myth/arms-weap/freagarthach.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/acref/9780198609674.001.0001/acref-9780198609674&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://books.google.ca/books?id=HI5yXNhbebYC&amp;pg=PT188&amp;lpg=PT188&amp;dq=Frecraid%20Lugh&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=k6j2jAVt7a&amp;sig=z6xQZkVW2qX8nBo9pA5_qbBP09I&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwix0Oq8xJbVAhUBaCYKHXS_CbQQ6AEITjAH#v=onepage&amp;q=Frecraid%20Lugh&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11183" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2759" RevisionGUID="6f25b6a7-7750-4516-a063-fe57596953c1" CreationDate="2017-07-20T05:46:55.273" UserId="3373" Text="An interesting idea adding up to what was said already: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Making a little &quot;comparative hells and abysses&quot; attempt: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tracing the idea of the Netherworld from the Epic of Gilgamesh: Humanity or humans were not allowed to enter the Realm of the Divine, most likely they could enjoy their lives, and afterwards joined the realms of the Shades, or Nether-World - considered a place of sadness and gloom. That is why Gilgamesh bemoans the loss of the pearl of immortality and laments over the death of his friend. Most likely the same ideas were shared in Akkad, although it is not certain. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Egypt the situation was different, people were both enjoying the pleasures of life in accord with the laws of Maat, yet there was a &quot;pool of fire&quot; envisioned for these who violated these laws (Religion of Ancient Egypt: Wiesław Bator). Individual soteriology was based on assistance from the Gods with proper, sometimes highly advanced rites were commonplace. There was nothing to be feared, people could life pleasant, fulfilled lives, and on top of that for being nice to each other they became little Gods and Goddesses themselves. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Hellenic views were most likely taken from Orphism (an offshoot of an Egyptian rite) that evolved in Eleusinian, Dionisian, Herkulean rites etc. This thought that one has to descent into the Abyss (Hells) by initiation in order to drink from the water of memory (Persophone) and ascend to Eleusis post-mortem and partake in the happiness of the Gods. The mysteries of Mithras in Roman Cults were similar - in order to ascend, one had to descend, by proper initations.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now let's look at ethymology: Daimon in greek meant &quot;Genius&quot;, just like Angelus meant a &quot;horsed messenger&quot; - the one that commonly travelled from city to city. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Proclean theology and all theology of the ancient Hellens daimons were superior to humans, right above deified mortals, and below heroes, heroines and such. They were divided in agathodaimones (good-willing) and cacadoaimones (malevolent), or of mixed nature, appearing from different elements (fire, air, earth, water), of different geneaology, history and descent. Iamblich claimed daimons were created by the Gods to assist humans. Plutarch conveyed that agathodaimones became Deities themselves, and malevolent daimons were:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Punished, until they assumed a proper place in nature' (De Iside et Osiride)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Christian concept of 'hell' was probably developed way after Christianity was formed (after 4th Century),by degrading daimones and Gods and branding everything as &quot;devils&quot;, Christian theologians thus nicely put them in a place of evil that is a inverted projection of what Christian religion considered anti-dogmatic, or not within its canon of morality, principles, and belief-systems. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The whole hierarchies of God &gt;= Jesus &gt; Angels &gt; Saints were a replacement of Proclusean (5th Century): Solar Providence &gt; Gods and Goddessess &gt; Demi-Gods &gt; Heroes and Heroines &gt; Winged Messengers &gt; Daimons &gt; Deified mortals and regular mortals. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11184" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2759" RevisionGUID="d174db11-ff52-49de-8e15-55aff7864d4f" CreationDate="2017-07-20T05:52:22.043" UserId="3373" Comment="added 51 characters in body" Text="An interesting idea adding up to what was said already: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Making a little &quot;comparative hells and abysses&quot; attempt: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tracing the idea of the Netherworld from the Epic of Gilgamesh: Humanity or humans were not allowed to enter the Realm of the Divine, most likely they could enjoy their lives, and afterwards joined the realms of the Shades, or Nether-World - considered a place of sadness and gloom. That is why Gilgamesh bemoans the loss of the pearl of immortality and laments over the death of his friend. Most likely the same ideas were shared in Akkad, although it is not certain. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Egypt the situation was different, people were both enjoying the pleasantries of life in accord with the laws of Maat. There was a &quot;pool of fire&quot; envisioned for these who violated these laws (Religion of Ancient Egypt: Wiesław Bator), but it was only for &quot;wicked people and violators of the Cosmic law&quot;. Individual soteriology was based on assistance from the Gods with proper, sometimes highly advanced rites. There was nothing to be feared, people could life pleasant, fulfilled lives, and on top of that for being nice to each other they became little Gods and Goddesses themselves. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Hellenic views were most likely taken from Orphism (an offshoot of an Egyptian rite) that evolved in Eleusinian, Dionisian, Herkulean rites etc. This thought that one has to descent into the Abyss (Hells) by initiation in order to drink from the water of memory (Persophone) and ascend to Eleusis post-mortem and partake in the happiness of the Gods. The mysteries of Mithras in Roman Cults were similar - in order to ascend, one had to descend, by proper initations.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now let's look at ethymology: Daimon in greek meant &quot;Genius&quot;, just like Angelus meant a &quot;horsed messenger&quot; - the one that commonly travelled from city to city. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Proclean theology and all theology of the ancient Hellens daimons were superior to humans, right above deified mortals, and below heroes, heroines and such. They were divided in agathodaimones (good-willing) and cacadoaimones (malevolent), or of mixed nature, appearing from different elements (fire, air, earth, water), of different geneaology, history and descent. Iamblich claimed daimons were created by the Gods to assist humans. Plutarch conveyed that agathodaimones became Deities themselves, and malevolent daimons were:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Punished, until they assumed a proper place in nature' (De Iside et Osiride)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Christian concept of 'hell' was probably developed way after Christianity was formed (after 4th Century),by degrading daimones and Gods and branding everything as &quot;devils&quot;, Christian theologians thus nicely put them in a place of evil that is a inverted projection of what Christian religion considered anti-dogmatic, or not within its canon of morality, principles, and belief-systems. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The whole hierarchies of God &gt;= Jesus &gt; Angels &gt; Saints were a replacement of Proclusean (5th Century): Solar Providence &gt; Gods and Goddessess &gt; Demi-Gods &gt; Heroes and Heroines &gt; Winged Messengers &gt; Daimons &gt; Deified mortals and regular mortals. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11185" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2760" RevisionGUID="d472760c-d0b3-41af-9576-91273b2aa2bb" CreationDate="2017-07-20T06:11:56.360" UserId="3373" Text="&gt; “Nor did Mythology spring from fifty or a hundred different sources,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as frequently assumed. It is one as a system of representation, one as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a mould of thought, one as a mode of expression, and all its great&#xD;&#xA;&gt; primordial types are virtually universal”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Gerard Massey&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The interpretation and translation is based on Wiesław Bator’s, scholarly work Religion of Ancient Egypt: Perspectives from Religious Studies (Jagiellonian University Publications: Cracow, 2012)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Three directive souls: **Akh, Ba, Ka**&#xD;&#xA;Three Intermediary energies: **Ran, Jab (Hati), Shut (Khaibit)**&#xD;&#xA;Three executive elements: **Sekhem, Sanhu, Nacht (Sat)**&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;**Akh** (bright, illumined) directs the whole intellectual sphere of a human being, and contains all his or hers intellectual potential (that may be trained). The hieroglyphic determinative and logogram of the concept Akh was the walking bird. This element returned to Yaaru (heavens) considered the house of Gods and Goddesses, it was this element that was the ‘messenger’ of the Gods that worked in accord with the laws of Maat, Akh of the deceased was identified with Stars across the universe, because Akh was also the source of all wisdom, the living wrote letters ‘to the stars’ or to the Akh of their ancestors, leaving them in their graves, where the statue (tut) of the deceased was erected, they awaited the reply in their dreams.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;**Ran/Ren** (the name), nefer, it meant “beautiful”; “happy”; “joyful”; “glorious”; “splendid”. It was the mirroring of the universal creative word (kheru, medu), the name was considered a natural link in-between creative soul and Akh and its passive executive form (Sekhem), but also an inter-mediary element between the Necher (Gods and Goddesses) and affective-emotional domain of the being, called “hhekau” (represented in case of human being by triad: Ba, Yab, Sahh). Name, understood in such a way, was associated with all governing forces over energy, and thus the physical world. The power of the name Ren depends on the quality of Akh of its beholder;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;**Sekhem** was considered the primal, unspoiled form of a human being — the ideal prototype of his body residing in the divine sphere of Nerchru. Visually, Sekhem reminded of earthly body, but it did not have any defects, nor did it undergo the effects of time. Observing representation of phenomena of time-less youth in artistic impressions conjured by Egyptian masters of Sekhem of immortal beings, as they were considered artistic ideations of the Earthly mirroring of Sekhem. This kind of idealistic portrayals were considered earthly mirroring of Sekhem and they were given the name Tut, which were included by some researchers into the fundamental elements of one’s personality. Egyptians did not deny tut (the figure) a form of “life” (Tut Ankh or “living image”), but always considered Tut an Earthly substitute of Sekhem. Many researchers sought in Sekhem some active force, working in an autonomous manner, which might not be completely accurate, because the same element was equal in a determinative of a standing mummy, which may be found amongst the concepts of other bodies: Sahh and Djet. Thus, all three elements of human nature belong to the same category of receptive, or passive forms. This hypothesis is supported by Egyptian mythology, that the Goddess Sekhmet, of personified Sekhem of the highest being, is seen as a passive executor of the will of the King of Gods — Atum-Re-Chepri, who, according to the Stone of Shabaka, is understood as the “heart” and “word” of the panenteistic God Ptah; The above-mentioned elements of the human personality which work in the divine sphere of Necheru were considered the most perfect prototype of a mortal, thus the numinous mirroring of his Earthly nature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The next triad of the elements of a human being are: Ba, Yab, and Sahh, which belong to the inter-mediating sphere of the whole being. Here, all weight of afterlife of a human being rests, because it is them that determinate what will one do living one’s life, and what was the intention of his doings. Thus, they are the main protagonists of the judgment over the dead, because they are responsible for a human beings conscious actions and submit to the judgment over the dead. They are as follows:&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;**Ba:** This element is most closely associated with the understanding of a ‘soul’ in the Western occidental civilization. Ba may be the reflexive, passionate element, responsible for life choices. Egyptians held that Ba was a loyal servant, thus a soul of one was his loyal servant (bak). Ba is described in writing by two different determinatives: the older one is a black stork, the younger one falcon with a human head. The reflexive soul was thus considered an inseparable companion, which suggests motives and way of acting. Ba was not responsible for creative thought, but advised how they should be applied, it resided in the “heart” (yab), and its inclinations influenced the active heart (Hati). The heart commanding separate senses and movements decided which of the Ba-influences to execute, and which one should be rejected. When Ba is recommending inner tranquillity, moderation, care for oneself and others, or it “persuades Maat”, then it has a chance of attaining the state of divinity and it awaits a reward in the afterlife. This happy fate met him/her only when they conducted themselves as above. When the Ba-soul contradicted the order of Maat and influenced the human being to act against his con-science (co-feeling), or the voice of the Yab-heart which was inscribed with unfaltering laws and principles stemming from Ren in the Necheru sphere — then it must have been punished with other elements of the deceased, belonging to the sphere Hhekau, dying in cruel condition in the Underworld; The advices of the soul might be completely contradicting con-science, and even may put afterlife in doubt, in the scripture ‘Conversation of a suicide with his Ba” we may note a complete contradiction between the Ba-element and inner consideration of a man. The soul or Ba in this case seem to be a synonym of sobriety and at all costs it attempts to silence the burdened con-science. The Ba, attached to all pleasantries of life conjures its image and recommends idleness. Operating on rational arguments the Ba negates afterlife, just to protect the protagonist from suicide. It knows that it leads to the extermination of consciousness in the afterlife. To the life in opposition to Maat it portrays a noble death, which is saving from wickedness and assures existence in the afterlife. The con-science suggests that a person living in accord with Maat has more influence in the world than the living body, attaining a degree of post-mortem divinity and the ability to conjure miracles. In the light of Egyptian narrative, the Ba is not only belonging to the human existence, also Gods and animals possess it. Yet, Gods are not limited to having just one Ba as the ‘rational friend’, the Ba may undergo transformations. Of course, a Ba belonging to a Deity is of much higher hierarchy than that of a mortal or an animal, it is higher, perfect, and infallible. In essence, the Deity-Ba is similar to human Akh, Ba of the divine is a manifestation of Necheru, may inhabit the bodies of many animals and this fact is the basis of Egyptian zoolatry (for example the Deity Horus, as the God of Life, may be emanating through all living beings in the positive aspect of their expression).&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;**Yab/Hati**, or ‘heart’ is the main concept of Egyptian anthropology and the key to the active human being, Egyptians believed that that it is the ‘temple and store-house’ of thoughts, and thus they assigned it a role similar to this that we are assigned to the brain nowadays (it might be said that the brain and associated cognitive processes and affective states and feelings are modulating the essential heart, thus experiences, and pain, suffering, influences or cleanses the heart alike to karmic inclinations, when a heart ‘drowns’ in its despair, or becomes alike to stone — different from detached abiding — it grows cold — but it may not be limited to biochemical physiological brain functions, it works with the components that give the feeling component authenticity, and the genius its proper, spiritual function, thus also it might be said that apart from a regular heart pumping blood through the organism, there is a hidden layer, a spiritual heart and its circulation, through which all states of being are carried throughout thus some believed that in blood therein is also contained the vital force of the ‘heart’, it is a violation thus to abuse the blood of one’s ‘heart’, as it develops a parasitical dependence, and reliance on someone else’s ‘heart’ thus rejecting one’s own as an independent being). The heart was divided into the passive form (con-science) called yab, and directive active part (desire, or rather — direction) — hati. As “con-science” the heart (yab) is never bribed and it may be a witness against the deceased in the world of the dead. Some researchers believed that “yab” is directed towards the meta-physical worlds, while hati directs the doing of a human being in the world of the senses, for “hatia” means also “ruler”. It thus also has in Egyptian texts a function alike to defence-double (ka) controlling the visible physical body. According to Egyptians they are different in the sense that “hati” is guided by conscious working of our body, and Ka controls only the physiological functioning of our organism that is not guided by our will (in essence Yogins of the East, by establishing Hati-Hatia command over Ka, they could be in charge of the emotional, affective, cognitive and other functions of the mind and body, thus establishing a seat of consciousness linking it with the ‘true will’ or the higher image). The “hati” heart, as a collection of active desires, emotions, also commands the passive form (“body”) related to the sphere of Hhekau, also called Sahh&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;**Sahh:** is a passive being of the human being, which is at disposal of the heart and executed through the meditation of the Sahh(-body) the will of the Ba-soul. It works without the interference of the senses and as a signal to act it is enough to think (emanate or vibrate) a “word” (any directed thought-form, or act, voice etc.). It may be called “soul-body”, “subtle-body”, or “emotional body”. Because its determinative is also a standing mummy, a corpse, it is said the true process of mummification was an attempt at turning a regular body into Sahh (perhaps an astral double). These concepts, however, are not identical because the mummy is described with the Egyptian word “Ui” although equipped with identical determinative. In any case Sahh was the principle tool (and perhaps a protective carrier-shielding) in working of the Ba-soul through mediation of the heart, and it could take any shapes and infiltrate physical matter. It could also shape it into proper, visible imaginations; It is her that could morph its being into notions, or representations of Deities (modern idea of ‘godforms’, ‘masks’ or ‘illusions’, unlike true Deities), animals, plants, and symbols. It could also change things into another (transmutation, for example modifications on the mental-astral plane, or endowing physical objects with various kinds of energy — consecrated, or ‘cursed’ objects). That is why Sahh was an element, without which no magical work could be performed, that was considered obvious and common.&#xD;&#xA;The third sphere of the world, in which a human being played was the physical world, called nachtu. There are three functional elements here: directing — Ka, intermediary (Khaibit, Shu) and executive (Djet), from all listed elements of personality only the last one is captured in a sensual way, khaibit (shadow-being) is a delicate substance, and Ka is considered an invisible care-taker sustaining the human body in a good condition.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;**Ka** — It is not commonly agreed, but some speculate that it is closest to the form close to ‘platonic ideas’, others that it is a blind instinctual force without any form of spirituality (it might happen that in fact it is blind, instinctual at first, but undergoes refinement into the divine, numinous ‘ideas’ that penetrate this world as interpretable powers, or eternal grammar of the world, which understood, becomes reflected in it). The main function of Ka is providing nourishment to the physical body. The female version of Ka, or Hemsut proves that this component has a role in sexual differences and regulated physiological needs. Ka has also some relation with the ancestors and heritability, Ka might look like a double (perhaps an astral double, representing the image of the person at a given time). Ka most likely was not responsible for psychic and moral traits of a human being. The energy-basis which Ka operates in, governing the physiology of a human being is khaibit (shut). After death, Ka resided (with two other elements) in the grave, still having physical needs.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;**Khaibit (shut)**, or “shadow” was considered amongst the Egyptian thinkers an intermediary element that transports the recommendations of Ka to autonomous physiological systems. It was always portrayed as pitch-black, and that’s why it was called the ‘shadow’. This shadow-soul accompanied a human being even at night, being his visual representation of vital and reproductive forces (thus shadow-substance may be considered as a psycho-sexual energy in relation to living organisms). As a state of physical reality, mediating between pure energy and matter may be often “borrowed” by Sahh, which in such a way is materializing and assumes a visible form. After death, Khaibit lived in the grave altogether with Ka and Djet, and like them, required nourishment.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;**Djet:** One of the many names of the physical body. In Egyptian texts there are several synonyms: “kat, sat, hha”. As the most sensuous of them all and the only fully accessible sensuous element that played a major function. The most important function of Djet was to execute the commands of “heart” or hati. In such a way the physical body realised in the world ideas of purely conceptual element — Akh descending from the divine sphere of Netcheru and through Djet the effects of conscious choice of man and his decisions which he makes in the sphere of hhekau. No wonder that caring for the body was a fundamental responsibility for every Egyptian, moreover aversion towards ascesis was on par with aversion to lack of moderation in submitting to physical lusts. Both stances led, according to Egyptian wise-man to the destruction of an organism, and thus criminally limited the potential acting of the Ba-soul and divine particle Akh in the physical world. After death, Djet was transformed into a ui-mummy for Khaibit and Ka to live further;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11187" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2613" RevisionGUID="8a206cc0-f6b5-462d-b859-45242580a2ee" CreationDate="2017-07-20T10:28:24.730" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 74 characters in body" Text="Well there is the Norse &quot;muse&quot; [Kvasir][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as a group of muses in another religion, no I can't think of or find any. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&amp;source=web&amp;rct=j&amp;url=http://www.holidayyarns.com/muse.pdf&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjDm4HMkfrTAhWLhlQKHaX7DDoQFggmMAI&amp;usg=AFQjCNEQzXG4VST02XI3MbcmNWj4RwKcIQ&amp;sig2=p0UIo-6szEqt6zM3MJRKZw" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11189" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2722" RevisionGUID="f022c1f6-a256-4344-ab0c-64e1c7248f63" CreationDate="2017-07-20T11:29:07.430" UserId="2682" Comment="added a detail" Text="There does not seem to be any ancient text explicitly stating that these apples confer immortality upon anyone, although a case can be made that, thematically, they—as you put it—“at the least are somehow related to immortality.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Precious Purpose**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Contrary, indeed, to what the Wikipedia article that you mention says, neither is there any ancient literary instance of the apples being eaten or consumed in any way.&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; The impression might be gathered here that this is not their purpose at all. Perhaps worth noting is that whenever golden apples occur in Greek mythology—and also, as it happens, in the Norse myth to which you've alluded in which the Jötnar (Giants) steal both the goddess Iðunna *and* her apples—there is no (explicit) mention of them being eaten nor of anyone attempting to eat them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As silly as it might seem at a glance, the most obvious reason for this that I can see is that golden apples are—if understood to be described as solid gold (or anything close to this) rather than merely gold-*coloured*—are basically chunks of metal, which should be simply inedible, perhaps even to the gods.&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; If this is the case then it would make much sense to conclude that they are a symbol more so than a practical foodstuff, even in the narratives themselves. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the very least their function in the stories is that they are valuable on account of being (wholly or partially) composed of a precious substance. If for no other reason, Hera posts guardians over the fruit of her gardens because people have a tendency towards pilfering gold. I do think, though, that there is more to this than simply expensive fruit-shaped ingots. It seems to me that it is not the apples *per se* that have to do with immortality but rather *the process of acquiring them* which results in this eventual condition. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Juba of Numidia is said to have claimed that the Libyans called oranges “the Apples of Hesperia,” saying that it was Herakles who brought them into Libya shortly after stealing them from Hera's gardens.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. Things get decidedly weird, however, when one considers that the Azteca apparently considered gold to be the excrement of the gods, which is literally what is meant by *teocuitlatl*, their word for gold.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**These and *Other* Golden Apples**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are three instances in Greek mythology in which mortals interact with golden apples: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(1) A prince, either Meilanion of Arkadia [Arcadia] or Hippomenes of Megara, is enamoured of the renowned huntress Atalanta and is granted three such apples by the goddess Aphrodite in order to win the huntress's hand in marriage. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(2) Herakles is commanded by his slave-master Eurystheus, as the eleventh of his twelve *athloi*, “labours” or “tasks,” to steal for him the apples of the Hesperides from Hera's gardens in Libya.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(3) Prince Paris of Troy is charged with the responsibility of adjucating a beauty contest among the goddesses Hera, Athena and Aphrodite, the winner's prize being a golden apple. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;None of these three men gets to keep the apple(s) that he has obtained, and all three eventually die. Herakles, however, becomes an immortal after *his* demise, which is a fairly common prerequisite for mortals' acquisition of immortality: they must die first, by some means or another. A few other differences are noticeable between Herakles and the other two heroes. Herakles takes the apples himself, by force, from the otherworldly location in which they have been planted by the gods, while Meilanion/Hippomenes and Paris are each freely given *their* apples while in the ordinary realm of mortals. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles neither receives the apples directly from any divinity nor does he hand them over to any deity. He takes them directly from their tree and then presents them to his mortal slave-master, who gives them to Athena, who then returns them to Hera's gardens.&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; Meilanion or Hippomenes receives his apples from Aphrodite. Another goddess, Eris, is the originator of Paris's apple, which ends up with Aphrodite after the beauty contest. According to Colluthus' *Abduction of Helen*, Eris' apple is actually one of those from the Hesperides.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. Granted there is the version of the story in which the Titan Atlas (who here is the father of the Hesperides) is still an active character in the chronology rather than having been transformed, some generations earlier, into the Atlas Mountain Range upon whose slopes Hera's gardens are themselves located.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Herakles and His Assignments**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The last three of Herakles' twelve *athloi* take place either on the border of the afterworld or in the home of the dead itself, which generally are all points of no return. These three missions are to: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`10.0` steal the oxen of the giant warrior Geryones from the island of Erytheia, where the giant's friend and neighbour Menoites is the herdsman of Haides [Hades], the lord of the dead; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`11.0` steal the apples of the Hesperides, the “Daughters of Evening,” who, like Geryones, dwell on the red edge of Day and Night at the world's western extremity (and also Geryones' island Erytheia, “Red,” is named after one of the Hesperides, who is the mother of the giant's herdsman Eurytion); and &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`12.0` capture Kerberos [Cerberus], the monster watchdog of the Underworld, whose brother Orthros, another monstrous canine, is Geryones' sheepdog. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To return from the afterworld by succeeding in these tasks signifies victory over death. This symbolism is not necessarily spelled out so obviously in the stories themselves but we do have the fact that Herakles is instructed by the oracle of Apollon [Apollo] at Delphi to become a slave of Eurystheus and perform all the tasks that he is commanded to. He is promised that after completing these labours, he shall receive immortality. Further regarding this, [Dick Caldwell](http://www.greecetravel.com/greekmyths/argos8.htm) says:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Two of Herakles’ primary motives, the attainment of immortality&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and the search for maternal nurturance, are embodied in the eleventh&#xD;&#xA;&gt; labor.  On one hand the magic fruit in the paradise garden, like the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; golden apples of north European myth or the fruit of the Tree of Life&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in Genesis 2, are a means to immortality; for the same reason the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; streams of the garden of the Hesperides flow with ambrosia, the food&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the gods and the source of their immortality.  On the other hand&#xD;&#xA;&gt; both the apples and their location represent the idyllic existence of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the infant at its mother’s breast; the garden of the Hesperides, like&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the garden of Eden and other paradise gardens, is a symbolic state of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; abundant maternal nurturance.  Herakles’ winning of the apples is one&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of several attempts he makes to obtain this nurturance, the denial of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which was graphically portrayed in the episode of Hera rejecting him&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from her breast.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his [1902 commentary on Sophocles' *Trachiniae*](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0027:text=intro:section=2), Sir Richard C. Jebb says severally that he perceives the original and now-lost meaning of the journey to the Hesperides and their golden treasure to be the attainment of immortality." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11190" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2761" RevisionGUID="0084f5a3-5a3f-4df0-bb9b-73c7e88c7d84" CreationDate="2017-07-20T20:02:58.133" UserId="2892" Text="By this I mean, there is a definite parallel between Hel and other underworld goddesses, [Kore/Persephone][1] in particular, although the concept may be extended to Inanna/Geshtinanna, who Gaiman regards as the same personage in [Ishtar/Belili][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the conception of Hel, she actually *embodies* the binary, being &quot;half alive, half dead&quot;, where in the Greek and Mesopotamian versions, the underworld aspect is distinct from the regenerative aspect. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;___________________________________________________&#xD;&#xA;Related: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We see some reference to regeneration per her presumed ability to resurrect Balder, and also in the idea that &quot;gifts are sent back to Frigg and Fulla by Balder's wife Nanna as from a friendly kingdom&quot; (Davidson?), but is Hel related to Freyja per [Frejya's awesome regenerative power][3]? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, Baldr/Nanna makes me think of Baal/Inanna (see [Baal's time in the underworld][4]).  In all cases, we're dealing with deities representing the cycles of the seasons, life and death, withering and regeneration.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persephone&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishtar#Descent_into_the_underworld&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2444/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal#Semitic_religion" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11191" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2761" RevisionGUID="0084f5a3-5a3f-4df0-bb9b-73c7e88c7d84" CreationDate="2017-07-20T20:02:58.133" UserId="2892" Text="Why does the liminality of the &quot;half-goddess&quot; Hel manifest so distinctly?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11192" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2761" RevisionGUID="0084f5a3-5a3f-4df0-bb9b-73c7e88c7d84" CreationDate="2017-07-20T20:02:58.133" UserId="2892" Text="|greek|norse|sumerian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11193" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2444" RevisionGUID="ccbf46b8-d990-4af2-a753-5ea24f1e6cdd" CreationDate="2017-07-20T20:23:58.587" UserId="57" Comment="the link was to an answer of the referenced question, changed it to the actual question." Text="We had this question in a [slightly different form][1] a while ago, and I'm going to give the same answer I did then - that it goes back to the Aesir - Vanir war and the settlement between the two sides. One deity from each side gets half the dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is speculation, and I'm going to go further and say that Freyja goes first because of her particular power. Ursula Dronke suggested, in her book on the poems of the *Poetic Edda*, that the reason neither side won that war is that Odin's power to kill and Freyja's power to renew life meant a permanent standoff. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Dronke's book is [available from Scribd][2], by the way, if you want to check it out.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since Freyja can bring the dead back (see [Sorla thattr][3] for an example of her using this power) I figure she gets first pick of the dead. This would tie in with her being a death goddess, or a goddess of the gates of life and death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/10/how-was-it-decided-which-warriors-would-go-to-f%C3%B3lkvangr-and-which-to-valhalla&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.scribd.com/document/17115248/Elder-Edda-Vsp-Vkv-Ls-Skm-Rg-Ursula-Dronke-vol-2-1997&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%B6rla_%C3%BE%C3%A1ttr" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11194" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2762" RevisionGUID="48eb4270-bb50-4c45-919a-bc01ca625124" CreationDate="2017-07-20T20:35:23.950" UserId="57" Text="I recently stumbled upon a reference to the [helhest][1], a &quot;three-legged horse associated with Hel&quot;. Unfortunately, searching for more information on about this fascinating legend didn't turn up much. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Obviously, the most distinctive characteristic of the creature is having three legs and I'm hoping there's a story or stories explaining how that came to be. Is there?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helhest&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_sacrifice" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11195" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2762" RevisionGUID="48eb4270-bb50-4c45-919a-bc01ca625124" CreationDate="2017-07-20T20:35:23.950" UserId="57" Text="Why is the helhest three-legged?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11196" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2762" RevisionGUID="48eb4270-bb50-4c45-919a-bc01ca625124" CreationDate="2017-07-20T20:35:23.950" UserId="57" Text="|mythical-creatures|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11197" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2761" RevisionGUID="0bc7b8f9-6ec8-4b63-b60d-36ef5afa1fe0" CreationDate="2017-07-21T15:58:54.253" UserId="2892" Comment="added a  point on Freyja also ruling over a portion of the dead." Text="By this I mean, there is a definite parallel between Hel and other underworld goddesses, [Kore/Persephone][1] in particular, although the concept may be extended to Inanna/Geshtinanna, who Gaiman regards as the same personage in [Ishtar/Belili][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the conception of Hel, she actually *embodies* the binary, being &quot;half alive, half dead&quot;, where in the Greek and Mesopotamian versions, the underworld aspect is distinct from the regenerative aspect. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;___________________________________________________&#xD;&#xA;Related: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We see some reference to regeneration per her presumed ability to resurrect Balder, and also in the idea that &quot;gifts are sent back to Frigg and Fulla by Balder's wife Nanna as from a friendly kingdom&quot; (Davidson?), but is Hel related to Freyja per [Frejya's awesome regenerative power][3]? I find it notable that Freyja also presides over a selection of the dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, Baldr/Nanna makes me think of Baal/Inanna (see [Baal's time in the underworld][4]).  In all cases, we're dealing with deities representing the cycles of the seasons, life and death, withering and regeneration.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persephone&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishtar#Descent_into_the_underworld&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2444/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal#Semitic_religion" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11198" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2763" RevisionGUID="4da7e2e3-06dc-4536-9f8f-dadd378d8972" CreationDate="2017-07-22T23:07:41.040" UserId="3999" Text="There is an alternate explanation based on Roman conscripts in Roman Britain from Eastern Europe that the Romans credited with introducing the Stirrup to the Roman Cavalry. The defeated province in Eastern Europe was required to provide a certain number of young conscripts to the Roman army each year that had been trained in the use of Cavalry using their native Stirrup. The conscripts also had another tradition they were proud of (but Romans dismissed as worthless) which was that each of their young soldiers was trained to produce their own sword all the way from iron ore smelting to beating out the actual sword and those trained proudly wore a symbol of their skill on their armor (or clothing) which depicted a sword being pulled out of a stone (iron ore). Some of the Roman Soldiers that stayed behind when Rome left Britain still wore that symbol on their armor and the legendary leader of Romanized Britain in the fight against Saxon invaders may well have been one of them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However by the time Arthur's legend based on that leader was written down in the 11th century, British nobility had agreed not compete in business against the Guild craftsman (including Smiths) in return for the Guild's support of the nobility, so it would not have been acceptable to suggest that a member of a British nobility built their own sword in violation of that long standing accord." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11199" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2764" RevisionGUID="dc2a96a1-e667-4e3b-acdc-bf0d30a5a867" CreationDate="2017-07-23T19:16:51.410" UserId="4001" Text="Modern day dragons are, in Western culture at least, imagined as huge, reptilian, fire breathing creatures with both legs and wings. However, as far as I can find out myself by research, dragons were developed from ancient mythical creatures that were more akin to gigantic serpents or worms. In ancient Germanic lore at least, they were called &quot;worm&quot;, &quot;orm&quot;, &quot;wyrm&quot; and later &quot;lindworm&quot;. Now worms or snakes don't normally have legs or even wings. But up through the ages, these were added to their characteristics. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The epic poem of Beowulf was the first to describe a dragon/wyrm as having a fiery breath and bat-wings. Lindworms are often pictured in Romanesque art adorned with wings. Does anyone have a clue, at what stage, and under influence from what cultural tradition, did wings (and fiery breath) get added to the dragon as to arrive to our modern concept of these legendary beasts? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11200" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2764" RevisionGUID="dc2a96a1-e667-4e3b-acdc-bf0d30a5a867" CreationDate="2017-07-23T19:16:51.410" UserId="4001" Text="How did dragons get their wings?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11201" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2764" RevisionGUID="dc2a96a1-e667-4e3b-acdc-bf0d30a5a867" CreationDate="2017-07-23T19:16:51.410" UserId="4001" Text="|norse|dragons|beowulf|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11212" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2768" RevisionGUID="70bede96-ffc0-434b-8a06-56c2b8a72a09" CreationDate="2017-07-26T21:18:56.410" UserId="3996" Text="Is there an etching or drawing of Yggdrasil, the Norse Tree of Life, that is the oldest, or considered the most authentic? If so, what information was it based on?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11213" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2768" RevisionGUID="70bede96-ffc0-434b-8a06-56c2b8a72a09" CreationDate="2017-07-26T21:18:56.410" UserId="3996" Text="What is considered the most authentic illustration of Yggdrasil?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11214" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2768" RevisionGUID="70bede96-ffc0-434b-8a06-56c2b8a72a09" CreationDate="2017-07-26T21:18:56.410" UserId="3996" Text="|norse|yggdrasil|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11215" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2769" RevisionGUID="99a50dae-1c5f-48c8-b36b-419a8bcf2482" CreationDate="2017-07-27T09:07:08.090" UserId="666" Text="Some Norse myths are depicted on rune stones or other objects, but I am not aware of anything like that for Yggdrasil. The oldest depiction I know of is an illustration in a 17th century manuscript of Snorri's *Edda* (can be seen [here][1]), so it's quite a bit younger than the actual myth. Snorri's *Edda* is also the source that gives most details of the tree, even if it is also mentioned a few times in the poetry.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:AM_738_4to_Yggdrasill.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11217" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2770" RevisionGUID="615213bd-c11b-40db-b39a-f323094ac282" CreationDate="2017-07-27T19:19:32.060" UserId="2892" Text="This question got me thinking &quot;Why should dragons fly?&quot;  There is nothing in the [Greek root for dragon][1] that suggests flying.  *(The word is instead associated with vision, likely a reason the Python becomes associated with Delphi and Apollo.)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [dragons on the Ishtar Gate][2] certainly don't have wings.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I thought about the famous Norse dragon Níðhöggr, who also doesn't seem to need to fly, as the creature dwells at the roots of the world tree which it reportedly likes to gnaw.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, I found this interesting line at the end of the [Völuspá][3]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [dreki][4] [fljúgandi][5] *(trans. &quot;dragon flying&quot;)* &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Völuspá I.66][6]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The text of Beowulf predates the codification of the Poetic Edda, but the Norse material has a more primal feel. This suggests, to me at least, that the Norse idea of a dragon flying *could* predate the depiction in the Old English ballad.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;The association with fire seems to predate even Ancient Greece.  [See the discussion in the comments to this answer for some thoughts on the Greek relationship of dragons with fire][7]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This answer mentions fire breathing dragons as far back as Sumeria in the 3rd Millennium B.C.E.][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=dra%2Fkwn&amp;la=greek&amp;can=dra%2Fkwn0&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishtar_Gate&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lusp%C3%A1&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dreki&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/flj%C3%BAga&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda/V%C3%B6lusp%C3%A1_I&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2691/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/976/2892" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11218" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2770" RevisionGUID="164db064-c5a8-427c-8e4a-fe849ce8c778" CreationDate="2017-07-28T16:47:28.537" UserId="2892" Comment="updated to include information provided by Gibet on the Mesopotamian material.  " Text="This question got me thinking &quot;Why should dragons fly?&quot;  There is nothing in the [Greek root for dragon][1] that suggests flying.  *(The word is instead associated with vision, likely a reason the Python becomes associated with Delphi and Apollo.)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I thought about the famous Norse dragon [Níðhöggr][2], who also doesn't seem to need to fly, as the creature dwells at the roots of the world tree which it reportedly likes to gnaw.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, I found this interesting line at the end of the [Völuspá][3]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [dreki][4] [fljúgandi][5] *(trans. &quot;dragon flying&quot;)* &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Völuspá I.66][6]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The text of Beowulf predates the codification of the Poetic Edda, but the Norse material, but the religious poems that constitute the Poetic Edda certainly predate the text. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [dragons on the reconstructed mosaics of the Ishtar Gate][7] certainly don't have wings, but as Gibet has noted, the dragon Mušḫuššu has been [depicted with wings][8], and [Tiamat][9], the primordial Babylonian goddess, is a type a type of dragon, [and has been depicted with wings][9].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;The association with fire seems to predate even Ancient Greece.  [See the discussion in the comments to this answer for some thoughts on the Greek relationship of dragons with fire][10]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This answer mentions fire breathing dragons as far back as Sumeria in the 3rd Millennium B.C.E.][11]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=dra%2Fkwn&amp;la=greek&amp;can=dra%2Fkwn0&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%AD%C3%B0h%C3%B6ggr&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lusp%C3%A1&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dreki&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/flj%C3%BAga&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda/V%C3%B6lusp%C3%A1_I&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishtar_Gate&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ningishzida&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat#/media/File:Chaos_Monster_and_Sun_God.png&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2691/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/976/2892" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11219" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2761" RevisionGUID="3e316576-96d6-4943-a5a6-176fa55e3c8e" CreationDate="2017-07-28T19:16:20.077" UserId="2892" Comment="Changed the title of the question in hopes of attracting some answers" Text="By this I mean, there is a definite parallel between Hel and other underworld goddesses, [Kore/Persephone][1] in particular, although the concept may be extended to Inanna/Geshtinanna, who Gaiman regards as the same personage in [Ishtar/Belili][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the conception of Hel, she actually *embodies* the binary, being &quot;half alive, half dead&quot;, where in the Greek and Mesopotamian versions, the underworld aspect is distinct from the regenerative aspect. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;___________________________________________________&#xD;&#xA;Related: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We see some reference to regeneration per her presumed ability to resurrect Balder, and also in the idea that &quot;gifts are sent back to Frigg and Fulla by Balder's wife Nanna as from a friendly kingdom&quot; (Davidson?), but is Hel related to Freyja per [Frejya's awesome regenerative power][3]? I find it notable that Freyja also presides over a selection of the dead.&#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persephone&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishtar#Descent_into_the_underworld&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2444/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal#Semitic_religion" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11220" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2761" RevisionGUID="3e316576-96d6-4943-a5a6-176fa55e3c8e" CreationDate="2017-07-28T19:16:20.077" UserId="2892" Comment="Changed the title of the question in hopes of attracting some answers" Text="Is the &quot;half-goddess&quot; Hel distinct among mythical rulers of the underworld?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11221" PostHistoryTypeId="36" PostId="2771" RevisionGUID="908f01c6-be8d-44c0-a81d-28f0a0ab3bac" CreationDate="2017-07-29T00:08:04.897" UserId="-1" Comment="from https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/87216/do-leprechauns-derive-their-power-from-gold" />
  <row Id="11222" PostHistoryTypeId="36" PostId="2772" RevisionGUID="95d386c4-a99a-4fe5-83a6-d5f5f4530ab0" CreationDate="2017-07-29T00:08:04.897" UserId="-1" Comment="from https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/87216/do-leprechauns-derive-their-power-from-gold/87221#87221" />
  <row Id="11223" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2772" RevisionGUID="d4bd1bfc-b43e-4ca4-9d82-d26ffac6dab3" CreationDate="2017-07-26T23:01:24.410" UserId="3866" Text="[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When you say 4 elements I assume you mean the Aristotelian elements: earth, water, fire and air.  Aristotle also posited a fifth element: aether.&#xD;&#xA;from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_element#Greece&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In his On Generation and Corruption,[22][23] Aristotle related each of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the four elements to two of the four sensible qualities: Fire is both&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hot and dry. Air is both hot and wet (for air is like vapor, ἀτμὶς).&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Water is both cold and wet. Earth is both cold and dry. ... Aristotle&#xD;&#xA;&gt; added a fifth element, aether, as the quintessence, reasoning that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whereas fire, earth, air, and water were earthly and corruptible,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; since no changes had been perceived in the heavenly regions, the stars&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cannot be made out of any of the four elements but must be made of a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; different, unchangeable, heavenly substance.[24]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The medieval alchemists (big Aristotle fans) ran with the aether idea, renaming that fifth element Quintessence.  From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aether_(classical_element)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This elemental system spread rapidly throughout all of Europe and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; became popular with alchemists, especially in medicinal alchemy.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Medicinal alchemy then sought to isolate quintessence and incorporate&#xD;&#xA;&gt; it within medicine and elixirs.[14] Due to quintessence's pure and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; heavenly quality, it was thought that through consumption one may rid&#xD;&#xA;&gt; oneself of any impurities or illnesses. In The book of Quintessence, a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 15th-century English translation of a continental text, quintessence&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was used as a medicine for many of man's illnesses. A process given&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for the creation of quintessence is distillation of alcohol seven&#xD;&#xA;&gt; times.[15] Over the years, the term quintessence has become synonymous&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with elixirs, medicinal alchemy, and the philosopher's stone&#xD;&#xA;&gt; itself.[16]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And with the [philosopher's stone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosopher%27s_stone) we have made a line from the 4 elements to gold.  The Philosopher's Stone famously could turn base metals to gold.  This would account for why the leprechauns have so much gold.  But as a manifestation of Quintessence the Philospher's Stone was a lot more than that, to the point where the gold piece seems like a side note or maybe even a joke (which seems leprechaunish).  The Stone was power (celestial power?) and maybe even immortality, as the stars and moon are immortal and unchanging.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I must say that leprechauns as commonly depicted seem an unlikely match for things like Aether and the Philosopher's Stone.  But at the end of the day, they are faeries and thing about faeries is that they are often not as they appear.       &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/rEnVQ.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11224" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2773" RevisionGUID="c12edfc7-19db-447c-b39c-573a340ee154" CreationDate="2017-07-27T07:14:57.137" UserId="4028" UserDisplayName="Separatrix" Text="Leprechauns aren't a great option in that they're highly location dependent. Of course if your story is entirely set in Ireland that's no problem, but if you want to be anywhere else, no leprechauns.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Their gold is not magical, it's treasure buried during an ancient war that they happen to know the location of. All you need to do is dig at the bottom of the rainbow. They do however grant wishes if captured, being magical creatures. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They're otherwise a good wildcard though, one could consider them chaotic neutral. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of using a magical creature for your own purposes with your own mythology, you're better laying off the leprechauns. You could pick something from the less well known [Orkney fairy folk](http://www.orkneyjar.com/folklore/fairicks/index.html), though they're almost universally malicious, or a more obscure Irish fairy like the [Grogoch](http://www.neatorama.com/2015/09/15/Irish-Fairy-Folk/), you could even try rehabilitating the [household fairy or hobgoblin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobgoblin).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Folklaw is knee deep in miscellaneous magical creatures without the pitfalls and fixed associations of leprechauns. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11225" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2771" RevisionGUID="b50999b7-e978-4dfd-915f-6750a38150ab" CreationDate="2017-07-26T21:31:50.673" UserDisplayName="Anthony Gregory" Text="I am trying to use them in a book I'm writing but I can't find a lot of details regarding Leprechauns. Do they have significant power, do they grant wishes, and if so with what magic? Any answers will help. Please don't answer if you don't know anything about leprechauns. Only if you know or can point me in the right direction." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11226" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2771" RevisionGUID="b50999b7-e978-4dfd-915f-6750a38150ab" CreationDate="2017-07-26T21:31:50.673" UserDisplayName="Anthony Gregory" Text="Do leprechauns derive their power from gold?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11227" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2771" RevisionGUID="b50999b7-e978-4dfd-915f-6750a38150ab" CreationDate="2017-07-26T21:31:50.673" UserDisplayName="Anthony Gregory" Text="|magic|mythical-creatures|history|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11228" PostHistoryTypeId="36" PostId="2773" RevisionGUID="9c4fe8a0-b395-43a7-8a8a-91930565b0ca" CreationDate="2017-07-29T00:08:04.897" UserId="-1" Comment="from https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/87216/do-leprechauns-derive-their-power-from-gold/87244#87244" />
  <row Id="11229" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2774" RevisionGUID="c184e471-5fd9-42d2-a630-b6c6d6c694a7" CreationDate="2017-07-29T20:53:30.390" UserId="2892" Text="I think this depends on how you define &quot;power&quot;.  It certainly seems that Leprechauns' access to gold *gives them power* in that mankind has a sort of mania for gold.  Specifically, the Leprechaun can use gold as an enticement or reward, and possession of gold gives them status.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The mythology of Leprechauns seems to be fairly late, deriving mostly from recent folklore." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11230" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2775" RevisionGUID="09bba849-33b9-4aa0-a8c4-4d29dd9a7e4c" CreationDate="2017-07-30T16:20:48.740" UserId="4021" Text="Is there a way to write dos two names in norse runes? Are there different  of the meaning of each(memory and though)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11231" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2775" RevisionGUID="09bba849-33b9-4aa0-a8c4-4d29dd9a7e4c" CreationDate="2017-07-30T16:20:48.740" UserId="4021" Text="Hugin and Muninn runes" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11232" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2775" RevisionGUID="09bba849-33b9-4aa0-a8c4-4d29dd9a7e4c" CreationDate="2017-07-30T16:20:48.740" UserId="4021" Text="|norse|mythical-creatures|odin|runes|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11233" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2776" RevisionGUID="f2f67101-7a9e-4e06-a453-f17cec1b4e84" CreationDate="2017-07-30T16:40:50.207" UserId="666" Text="Of course you can write their names in runes; runes is simply another alphabet (or rather: several alphabets). Here's what it would look like, using the [Younger futhark][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ᚼᚢᚴᛁᚾ Hugin&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ᛘᚢᚾᛁᚾ Munin&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Note that while the names in Old Norse would more properly be &quot;Huginn&quot; and &quot;Muninn&quot;, consonants are not duplicated in the same word, sometimes not even across words).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you want them together, it would be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ᚼᚢᚴᛁᚾ:ᚬᚴ:ᛘᚢᚾᛁᚾ Hugin ok Munin&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(There were also other separators between the words that could be used, but the colon is easiest to reproduce; it is also used in the runic manuscript of the Scanian law).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;Lars Magnar Enoksen, *Runor*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Younger_Futhark" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11234" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2776" RevisionGUID="c9a3825e-02a9-4967-935c-e8a6b7283100" CreationDate="2017-07-30T17:53:06.193" UserId="666" Comment="+a sentence on the word for &quot;memory&quot;" Text="Of course you can write their names in runes; runes is simply another alphabet (or rather: several alphabets). Here's what it would look like, using the [Younger futhark][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ᚼᚢᚴᛁᚾ Hugin&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ᛘᚢᚾᛁᚾ Munin&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Note that while the names in Old Norse would more properly be &quot;Huginn&quot; and &quot;Muninn&quot;, consonants are not duplicated in the same word, sometimes not even across words).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you want them together, it would be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ᚼᚢᚴᛁᚾ:ᚬᚴ:ᛘᚢᚾᛁᚾ Hugin ok Munin&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(There were also other separators between the words that could be used, but the colon is easiest to reproduce; it is also used in the runic manuscript of the Scanian law).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for if the words would also carry a common meaning, from what I gather, they would likely. I found a [dictionary][2] from the University of Copenhagen with words found in Old norse prose. For &quot;huginn&quot;, there is an entry, but no translation given (but there is one for &quot;[hugi][3]&quot;: thought, mind, (sincere) feeling&quot;. There is no entry for &quot;muninn&quot;, but I found it in a free search, so it seems that there is at least an homograph. This also means that since they are inflected forms, &quot;Hugin and Munin&quot; does not necessary exactly translate to &quot;thought&quot; and &quot;memory&quot;; the listing for &quot;huginn&quot; marks it as an adjective. Also note that I believe that the standard word for &quot;memory&quot; would be &quot;minni&quot;, at least that is the word that has survived into modern nordic languages.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;Lars Magnar Enoksen, *Runor*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Younger_Futhark&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://onpweb.nfi.sc.ku.dk/wordlist_e.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://onpweb.nfi.sc.ku.dk/webart/h/hu/37640frm.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11235" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2777" RevisionGUID="0e3bdbec-5fac-4ebb-b834-ba877711df43" CreationDate="2017-07-30T21:01:05.963" UserId="4022" Text="Most concepts seem to have a particular deity unambiguously associated with them. But Time, fundamental as it is, does not—in the Greek pantheon, for example, there is Chronus, later conflated with Cronus; and several different versions of the Horae; and Aeōn.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any other Greek or Roman deities specifically associated with the passage of time? And were any specifically known as &quot;the god of Time&quot;? (I'm curious mostly about time in the sense of *χρόνος/tempus*, but deities associated with *vicis*, *καίρος*, or *ἄιων* also qualify.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11236" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2777" RevisionGUID="0e3bdbec-5fac-4ebb-b834-ba877711df43" CreationDate="2017-07-30T21:01:05.963" UserId="4022" Text="Which Greek or Roman deities have dominion over Time?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11237" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2777" RevisionGUID="0e3bdbec-5fac-4ebb-b834-ba877711df43" CreationDate="2017-07-30T21:01:05.963" UserId="4022" Text="|greek|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11238" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2777" RevisionGUID="d85f15e0-d8d1-47ff-9c03-22d7acfd4715" CreationDate="2017-07-30T21:54:54.667" UserId="2892" Comment="Added links to facilitate readers, and also linked to lexical entries for the Greek and Latin words" Text="Most concepts seem to have a particular deity unambiguously associated with them. But Time, fundamental as it is, does not—in the Greek pantheon, for example, there is [Chronus][1], later conflated with [Cronus][2]; and several different versions of the Horae; and Aeōn.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any other Greek or Roman deities specifically associated with the passage of time? And were any specifically known as &quot;the god of Time&quot;? (I'm curious mostly about time in the sense of *[χρόνος][3]/[tempus][4]*, but deities associated with *[vicis][5]*, *[καίρος][6]*, or *[αἰών][7]* also qualify.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronos&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/resolveform?type=exact&amp;lookup=xronos&amp;lang=greek&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/resolveform?type=exact&amp;lookup=tempus&amp;lang=la&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/resolveform?type=exact&amp;lookup=vicis&amp;lang=la&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=kairo%2Fs&amp;la=greek#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/resolveform?type=exact&amp;lookup=ai%29w%2Fn&amp;lang=greek" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11239" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2778" RevisionGUID="8dfa6b7d-8b82-4424-aa6f-6e237e1cf363" CreationDate="2017-07-30T23:50:55.463" UserId="4023" Text="A pretty thorough list can be found [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_and_fate_deities#Classical_Antiquity) (relevant sections in the following list are mostly copied from the linked articles):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Greek:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Aion - associated with time, the orb or circle encompassing the universe, and the zodiac. Associated with eternity/afterlife. The &quot;time&quot; represented by Aion is unbounded.&#xD;&#xA;* Ananke - is a personification of inevitability, compulsion and necessity. Ananke marks the beginning of the cosmos. Daughter of Chronus.&#xD;&#xA;* Chronus -  governed linear, chronological time, divided into past, present, and future.&#xD;&#xA;* Kronos - Titan, not to be confused with Chronus (as pointed out in your question). Could slow/manipulate time.&#xD;&#xA;* The three moirai - the fates. Incarnations of destiny.&#xD;&#xA;* Geras - god of old age, son of Nyx and Erebus.&#xD;&#xA;* Horae - goddesses of seasons and natural portions of time.&#xD;&#xA;* Kairos - god of the 'right' moment, or 'critical' moment. As compared to Chronus and Aion.&#xD;&#xA;* Moros - god of impending doom and fate.&#xD;&#xA;* Tyche - goddess of luck and destiny.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Roman:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* The three parchae (= moirai)&#xD;&#xA;* Aeternitas - divine personification of eternity. Part of many cults, like the Greek Aion.&#xD;&#xA;* Anna Perenna - deity of the 'circle' of the year (*per annum*).&#xD;&#xA;* Caerus (= Kairos)&#xD;&#xA;* Chronos (= Chronus)&#xD;&#xA;* Saturn (= Kronos)&#xD;&#xA;* Fortuna (= Tyche)&#xD;&#xA;* Vertumnus - god of seasons and change, much like the Greek Horae." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11240" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2777" RevisionGUID="71de9318-cffb-4c18-b837-712e824b7d97" CreationDate="2017-07-30T23:50:55.683" UserId="967" Comment="clarifying a bit" Text="Most concepts seem to have a particular deity unambiguously associated with them. But Time, fundamental as it is, does not—in the Greek pantheon, for example, there is [Chronus][1], later conflated with [Cronus][2]; and several different versions of the Horae; and Aeōn.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any other Greek or Roman deities specifically associated with the passage of time, or the manipulation of time? And were any specifically known as &quot;the god of Time&quot;? (I'm curious mostly about time in the sense of *[χρόνος][3]/[tempus][4]*, but deities associated with *[vicis][5]*, *[καίρος][6]*, or *[αἰών][7]* also qualify.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronos&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/resolveform?type=exact&amp;lookup=xronos&amp;lang=greek&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/resolveform?type=exact&amp;lookup=tempus&amp;lang=la&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/resolveform?type=exact&amp;lookup=vicis&amp;lang=la&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=kairo%2Fs&amp;la=greek#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/resolveform?type=exact&amp;lookup=ai%29w%2Fn&amp;lang=greek" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11241" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2778" RevisionGUID="5dedaa99-24d4-41da-882d-6babadb664da" CreationDate="2017-07-30T23:59:25.490" UserId="4023" Comment="added 298 characters in body" Text="A pretty thorough list can be found [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_and_fate_deities#Classical_Antiquity) (relevant sections in the following list are mostly copied from the linked articles):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Greek:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Aion - associated with time, the orb or circle encompassing the universe, and the zodiac. Associated with eternity/afterlife. The &quot;time&quot; represented by Aion is unbounded.&#xD;&#xA;* Ananke - is a personification of inevitability, compulsion and necessity. Ananke marks the beginning of the cosmos. Daughter of Chronus.&#xD;&#xA;* Chronus -  governed linear, chronological time, divided into past, present, and future.&#xD;&#xA;* Kronos - Titan, not to be confused with Chronus (as pointed out in your question). Could slow/manipulate time.&#xD;&#xA;* The three moirai - the fates. Incarnations of destiny.&#xD;&#xA;* Geras - god of old age, son of Nyx and Erebus.&#xD;&#xA;* Horae - goddesses of seasons and natural portions of time.&#xD;&#xA;* Kairos - god of the 'right' moment, or 'critical' moment. As compared to Chronus and Aion.&#xD;&#xA;* Moros - god of impending doom and fate.&#xD;&#xA;* Tyche - goddess of luck and destiny.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Roman:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* The three parchae (= moirai)&#xD;&#xA;* Aeternitas - divine personification of eternity. Part of many cults, like the Greek Aion.&#xD;&#xA;* Anna Perenna - deity of the 'circle' of the year (*per annum*).&#xD;&#xA;* Caerus (= Kairos)&#xD;&#xA;* Chronos (= Chronus)&#xD;&#xA;* Saturn (= Kronos)&#xD;&#xA;* Fortuna (= Tyche)&#xD;&#xA;* Vertumnus - god of seasons and change, much like the Greek Horae.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greeks/Romans seem to have subdivided time into different types - eternal, regular, fate, natural, specific periods of life or specific lengths of time, and so on. The closest I think you get to a complete god of time is Chronus, whom you cited, but even he does not completely govern time." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11242" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2779" RevisionGUID="2f09cb13-db07-4eff-83fa-d06d5ec0ddf7" CreationDate="2017-07-31T00:02:53.453" UserId="967" Text="This is a bit of a stretch, but wouldn't Helios be the passer of time?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Nonnus, Dionysiaca 38. 235 ff :*  &#xD;&#xA;&quot;[Helios the Sun speaks: ] ‘I **carry the measures** of time, surrounded by the four Horai (Horae, Seasons), about the same centre, until I have passed through a whole house [of the Zodiac] and fulfilled one complete month as usual . . . Against Mene the Moon [Selene] I move my rolling ball . . . and pass on my endless circuit about the turning-point of the Zodiakos, creating the measures of time.’&quot; &lt;sub&gt;(emph mine)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I feel like this is a big stretch because we never see anything that mentions that Helios has been able to actually manipulate time, just this one quote that says he is the one responsible for making time fly. Also, since I don't know what greek is, I can't really check the roots either. But it's worth a shot looking at." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11243" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2778" RevisionGUID="a0501145-b23d-47c4-85b8-1ba83e2c9659" CreationDate="2017-07-31T00:03:48.460" UserId="4023" Comment="deleted 377 characters in body" Text="A pretty thorough list can be found [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_and_fate_deities#Classical_Antiquity) (relevant sections in the following list are mostly copied from the linked articles):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Greek:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Aion - associated with time, the orb or circle encompassing the universe, and the zodiac. Associated with eternity/afterlife. The &quot;time&quot; represented by Aion is unbounded.&#xD;&#xA;* Ananke - is a personification of inevitability, compulsion and necessity. Ananke marks the beginning of the cosmos. Daughter of Chronus.&#xD;&#xA;* Chronus -  governed linear, chronological time, divided into past, present, and future.&#xD;&#xA;* Kronos - Titan, not to be confused with Chronus (as pointed out in your question). Could slow/manipulate time.&#xD;&#xA;* Horae - goddesses of seasons and natural portions of time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Roman:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Aeternitas - divine personification of eternity. Part of many cults, like the Greek Aion.&#xD;&#xA;* Anna Perenna - deity of the 'circle' of the year (*per annum*).&#xD;&#xA;* Chronos (= Chronus)&#xD;&#xA;* Saturn (= Kronos)&#xD;&#xA;* Vertumnus - god of seasons and change, much like the Greek Horae.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greeks/Romans seem to have subdivided time and its passage into different types - eternal, regular, natural, specific lengths of time, and so on. The closest I think you get to a complete god of time is Chronus, whom you cited, but even he does not completely govern time." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11246" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2775" RevisionGUID="9da24a7f-c44f-46f1-ab7f-7b5410ffd5ad" CreationDate="2017-07-31T06:37:08.490" UserId="3538" Comment="Proofreading" Text="Is there a way to write the names &quot;Hugin&quot; and &quot;Muninn&quot; in Norse runes? Are there differences in the meaning of each (&quot;memory&quot; and &quot;thought&quot;)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11247" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2775" RevisionGUID="9da24a7f-c44f-46f1-ab7f-7b5410ffd5ad" CreationDate="2017-07-31T06:37:08.490" UserId="3538" Comment="Proofreading" Text="Hugin and Muninn in runes" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11248" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2775" RevisionGUID="9da24a7f-c44f-46f1-ab7f-7b5410ffd5ad" CreationDate="2017-07-31T06:37:08.490" Comment="Proposed by 3538 approved by 2774, 666 edit id of 454" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11252" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2781" RevisionGUID="ba69a396-c45c-4510-a596-c71feedf60ea" CreationDate="2017-07-31T10:59:47.707" UserId="4027" Text="This is the abstract a paper published in an (apparently) respectable academic journal (2010): the russian original '*planetnik*' is rendered as '*hobgoblin*':&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the regions of Orawa and Podhale, among the local elders, beliefs&#xD;&#xA;&gt; about hobgoblins , able to bring or mitigate thunderstorm, survived up&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to this day. The hobgoblins are supposed to travel on clouds,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; perceived as dragons, and depending upon peasants' fulfillment of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; request for food, or failure to fulfill one, are able to either&#xD;&#xA;&gt; destroy or protect the harvest. This work discusses features and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; properties of the hobgoblins, including their relation to the Lateran&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ringing tradition. The hobgoblins occur also in fiction literature,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which enables a discovery of the topos of naming ordinary people &quot;a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hobgoblin&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The paper is online in Russian https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/planetniki-v-oravskih-i-podhalyanskih-verovaniyah" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11253" PostHistoryTypeId="36" PostId="2782" RevisionGUID="c15b8f41-61a4-42e5-a6b9-5636af756c49" CreationDate="2017-07-31T13:32:49.783" UserId="-1" Comment="from https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/39256/norse-mythology-treasures" />
  <row Id="11254" PostHistoryTypeId="36" PostId="2783" RevisionGUID="8ca71fbf-0a62-46d0-befc-5871d2f4ba58" CreationDate="2017-07-31T13:32:49.783" UserId="-1" Comment="from https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/39256/norse-mythology-treasures/39258#39258" />
  <row Id="11255" PostHistoryTypeId="36" PostId="2784" RevisionGUID="6e124086-413d-493d-997a-bfcace66332b" CreationDate="2017-07-31T13:32:49.783" UserId="-1" Comment="from https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/39256/norse-mythology-treasures/39260#39260" />
  <row Id="11256" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2783" RevisionGUID="752c7c62-81d3-4a20-aa1f-3dd1d3a74433" CreationDate="2017-07-30T10:14:41.800" UserDisplayName="John Dallman" Text="The Norse gods of the sagas don't seem to have accumulated treasure in caves or chests, but they had many marvellous items, mostly made by the dwarfs. They included Frey's ship, [Skíðblaðnir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sk%C3%AD%C3%B0bla%C3%B0nir) and boar, [Gullinbursti](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gullinbursti), Odin's spear [Gungnir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gungnir) and ring [Draupnir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draupnir), and Thor's hammer, [Mjölnir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mj%C3%B6lnir). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Nibelungenlied](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nibelungenlied) tells of the Rhine Gold, which later became a key feature of Wagner's [Ring Cycle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Ring_des_Nibelungen) of music dramas. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11257" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2784" RevisionGUID="385cdbd8-14d8-4ba3-8d93-289f47cbb34c" CreationDate="2017-07-30T10:50:59.887" UserDisplayName="sempaiscuba" Text="If you are looking for archaeological evidence of Norse/Viking (unfortunately, the terms are often used interchangeably) religious practices, then there are a number of academic papers available online (for example, this one titled [Evidence of the Viking Religion Through Archaeology][1]). Much of that evidence comes from grave goods (like miniature [Thor's hammer][2] (or, &quot;torshammere&quot;) amulets), deposited in Norse/Viking burials, but there are also several examples of carved monuments and standing stones (like the [Ardre stones][3] from Gotland) that depict aspects from Norse Mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Many [pagan &quot;cult&quot; sites][4] associated with Norse/Viking mythology have been discovered in Scandinavia. A good example is the temple site at [Gamla Uppsala][5], where archaeological investigations have revealed the remains of the temple dedicated to Thor, Odin, and Freyr.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the case, of the temples at Gamla Uppsala, we have an account of how the temple actually appeared in the 11th-century in Adam of Bremen's *[Gesta Hammaburgensis ecclesiae pontificum][6]*. It is perhaps worth mentioning that Uppsalla was also described as being the domain of Freyr in the [*Ynglinga Saga*][7]. A number of translations of the *Ynglinga Saga* are available online, for example [here][8].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.academia.edu/9633867/EVIDENCE_OF_VIKING_RELIGION_THROUGH_ARCHAEOLOGY&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.medievalhistories.com/thors-hammer/?print=pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardre_image_stones&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://viking.archeurope.info/index.php?page=pagan-cult-sites&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://viking.archeurope.info/index.php?page=gamla-uppsala&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://archive.org/stream/gestahammaburgen00adamuoft#page/n5/mode/2up&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ynglinga_saga&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/heim/02ynglga.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11258" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2782" RevisionGUID="8d540743-e3e7-49ea-b014-0cd20fe59bcc" CreationDate="2017-07-30T08:50:41.633" UserId="4021" Text="Quick question; Is there any famous treasure related with the gods of the Norse Mythology? Something like a famous vault or maybe cave. An accumulation of important things that they wanted to protect, for instance." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11259" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2782" RevisionGUID="8d540743-e3e7-49ea-b014-0cd20fe59bcc" CreationDate="2017-07-30T08:50:41.633" UserId="4021" Text="Norse Mythology treasures" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11260" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2782" RevisionGUID="8d540743-e3e7-49ea-b014-0cd20fe59bcc" CreationDate="2017-07-30T08:50:41.633" UserId="4021" Text="|untagged|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11261" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2782" RevisionGUID="480587ca-1607-4c5c-9268-505e39d8a74e" CreationDate="2017-07-31T14:48:22.237" UserId="57" Comment="title, tags" Text="Is there any famous treasure related with the gods of Norse mythology? Something like a famous vault or maybe cave. An accumulation of important things that they wanted to protect, for instance." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11262" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2782" RevisionGUID="480587ca-1607-4c5c-9268-505e39d8a74e" CreationDate="2017-07-31T14:48:22.237" UserId="57" Comment="title, tags" Text="Famous treasure related with the Norse gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11263" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2782" RevisionGUID="480587ca-1607-4c5c-9268-505e39d8a74e" CreationDate="2017-07-31T14:48:22.237" UserId="57" Comment="title, tags" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11264" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2781" RevisionGUID="c6605dd3-99d5-4de7-b96c-2a8e678b1a68" CreationDate="2017-07-31T16:39:05.803" UserId="967" Comment="added 18 characters in body" Text="This is the abstract a paper published in an (apparently) respectable academic journal (2010): the russian original '*planetnik*' is rendered as '*hobgoblin*':&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the regions of Orawa and Podhale, among the local elders, beliefs&#xD;&#xA;&gt; about hobgoblins , able to bring or mitigate thunderstorm, survived up&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to this day. The hobgoblins are supposed to travel on clouds,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; perceived as dragons, and depending upon peasants' fulfillment of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; request for food, or failure to fulfill one, are able to either&#xD;&#xA;&gt; destroy or protect the harvest. This work discusses features and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; properties of the hobgoblins, including their relation to the Lateran&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ringing tradition. The hobgoblins occur also in fiction literature,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which enables a discovery of the topos of naming ordinary people &quot;a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hobgoblin&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [paper][1] is online in Russian.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/planetniki-v-oravskih-i-podhalyanskih-verovaniyah" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11265" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2785" RevisionGUID="c1135b5d-ea8f-4d65-9b8b-f966300c7ef2" CreationDate="2017-07-31T17:44:46.193" UserId="4022" Text="Many stories about the Greco-Roman Underworld mention the rivers flowing through it: the Styx, the Acheron, the Lethe, the Pyriphlegethon, the Cocytus, the Eridanus, and sometimes others.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources differ about which ones are actually *rivers*, though. For example, book six of the *Aeneid* describes Acheron as being a whirlpool, and Styx the marsh around it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which other sources specifically discuss or describe the rivers of the Underworld?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11266" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2785" RevisionGUID="c1135b5d-ea8f-4d65-9b8b-f966300c7ef2" CreationDate="2017-07-31T17:44:46.193" UserId="4022" Text="What sources describe the rivers of the Underworld?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11267" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2785" RevisionGUID="c1135b5d-ea8f-4d65-9b8b-f966300c7ef2" CreationDate="2017-07-31T17:44:46.193" UserId="4022" Text="|greek|roman|afterlife|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11269" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2785" RevisionGUID="d4757837-d198-44bf-ad0b-6a2ad0b231f3" CreationDate="2017-07-31T18:50:59.157" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|roman|source-request|afterlife|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11270" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2787" RevisionGUID="e3972afe-0530-4e2a-b375-f3197411ab94" CreationDate="2017-07-31T19:33:52.803" UserId="2892" Text="There was a question on Lit regarding [Thomas Hardy's poem &quot;The Oxen&quot;](https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/53215/the-oxen-56d232503c32d).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The poem features heavily Christian symbolism.  It is set on Christmas Eve, features a manger (a &quot;strawy pen&quot;), and vocabulary such as &quot;meek&quot;, &quot;kneel&quot;, &quot;hoping&quot;.  It is even unclear if the person claiming the oxen are kneeling is the savior himself, or merely a would-be prophet. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But my question is:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Why might have Hardy chosen oxen for this allegorical poem?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Blake, for instance, tends to use the lamb in allegorical poems on the savior, although oxen do feature in his [engravings][1] and [symbolism][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - What is the symbolism of oxen in general, and in relation to Christian ideas speficically?&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/383518&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.com/books?id=HOxpOMQ_Pa8C&amp;pg=PA242&amp;lpg=PA242&amp;dq=Ox?&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=UJxEyxAPcD&amp;sig=YTw_tM2gKdNCI4qw3ns2M-EzpFQ&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwi5mYrlnrTVAhVEbj4KHWo1AhIQ6AEISzAG#v=snippet&amp;q=Ox&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11271" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2787" RevisionGUID="e3972afe-0530-4e2a-b375-f3197411ab94" CreationDate="2017-07-31T19:33:52.803" UserId="2892" Text="What is the mythological significance/symbolism of oxen?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11272" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2787" RevisionGUID="e3972afe-0530-4e2a-b375-f3197411ab94" CreationDate="2017-07-31T19:33:52.803" UserId="2892" Text="|christianity|symbolism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11274" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2789" RevisionGUID="d2f6c9bb-fd17-4f22-ac70-3fcf4c5be1b1" CreationDate="2017-08-01T08:16:26.257" UserId="3960" Text="Why there are gods with animal faces but human bodies in Egyptian pantheons? Are they out-numbered the human-faced ones? From biological perspective human is weak in physical (body) but strong in intellect (head), why would the Egyptians use such a counter-intuitive symbols to describe their gods that supposed to master certain potent powers beyond humans? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A) Almost all the gods in the Egyptian pantheon are with animal heads, does any god with human face? I recalled the Sphinx is but it a god? The face + body as human the non-hybrid is excluded, such as Isis, Osirus or Ra. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;B) Contrarily the Greco-Roman gods (hybrids) are usually with human faces but animal bodies, such as centaurs, satyrs or gorgons (not full animal bodies but just animal parts such as wings or snake-hairs?). Are there any exceptions? And are there more examples of hybrids? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If the above intuitive knowledge correct, why there is such a contrast in these two cultures? Or are there any relationship between these? From history Egypt and Greece had contacts it's logical to assume there were inter-exchanging between them. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11275" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2789" RevisionGUID="d2f6c9bb-fd17-4f22-ac70-3fcf4c5be1b1" CreationDate="2017-08-01T08:16:26.257" UserId="3960" Text="Most gods in Egyptian pantheons are with animal faces?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11276" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2789" RevisionGUID="d2f6c9bb-fd17-4f22-ac70-3fcf4c5be1b1" CreationDate="2017-08-01T08:16:26.257" UserId="3960" Text="|greek|egyptian|pantheon|demi-gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11280" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2118" RevisionGUID="d56db019-33b7-45f5-a3f2-a94bdc7f38b8" CreationDate="2017-08-01T18:18:47.337" UserId="2892" Comment="edited down the answer to provide at least a supportable answer, even though it is not the answer sought, pending discovering a more literal example." Text="Because Christ is considered to have been conceived by the Holy Spirit, and spirit and wind are related concepts (Adam, for instance, was animated by the breath of life), I'm going to say&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- the Virgin Mary&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;______________________________________&#xD;&#xA;Still keeping my ears open for examples from other canons, as this is an extraordinarily interesting question.  *(I'm actually surprised such myths do no abound, as the underlying concept has a ring of &quot;poetic truth&quot;.)* " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11281" PostHistoryTypeId="13" PostId="2118" RevisionGUID="6452f9ab-b467-47e3-ac35-371812183954" CreationDate="2017-08-01T18:18:50.970" UserId="2892" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:2892,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;DukeZhou&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="11282" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2118" RevisionGUID="e535e3d5-56f3-48aa-b37f-e30218439626" CreationDate="2017-08-01T19:15:04.747" UserId="2892" Comment="added 297 characters in body" Text="Because Christ is considered to have been conceived by the Holy Spirit, and spirit and wind are related concepts (Adam, for instance, was animated by the breath of life), I'm going to say&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- the Virgin Mary&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;______________________________________&#xD;&#xA;Still keeping my ears open for examples from other canons, as this is an extraordinarily interesting question.  *(I'm actually surprised such myths do no abound, as the underlying concept has a ring of &quot;poetic truth&quot;.)* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although I know you are looking for examples of &quot;mundane wind&quot;, I'm not entirely sure the concepts of wind and spirit can be separated in this context.  I propose the Virgin Mary because the wind/Spirit in this instance *must* be disembodied per the Jewish tradition." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11283" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2791" RevisionGUID="4c42a70b-f0b1-42d9-84aa-cc330f42dfdb" CreationDate="2017-08-01T21:34:56.130" UserId="2892" Text="My feeling, coming from the literary side of the house *(which is to say my study of mythology and language is for the purpose of creative endeavor,)* is that Frazer's ideas never went away--it was merely the scholarship that was disputed. *Serious scholarship is distinct from &quot;poetic truth&quot;.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I see Frazer's influence in writers like Eliot, Yeats and Robert Graves, who themselves had a significant impact on 20th century literature.  More lately his influence is strongly seen in creators of mythology such as Neil Gaiman and Alan Moore, who had a similar impact on their mediums as Eliot and Yeats had on poetry. These are just a few examples.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The concept never died&#xD;&#xA;_______________________________________________________________&#xD;&#xA;In a religious context, one way to regard this archetype is as the *mythological* component, distinct from the ethical component.  From this perspective, Jesus' main function as Messiah was the introduction of the new Golden Rule: the love of the other as the self.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*([This idea was presented by Hillel, and subsequently reinforced by Akiva][1] in the Common Era, with the idea that &quot;the rest is [merely] commentary&quot;.  In those cases, they were referring to the Old Testament, but the same case can, and has, been made for Christianity.)* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Post-[Nash](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Forbes_Nash_Jr.) the Golden Rule has has found mathematical validation in the [superrational strategy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superrationality), liberating the ethical component from the mythological. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yet I still think the decline/generation model is extremely relevant--Game Theory may be cast as the mathematical analysis of equilibria and cyclic models are quite important.  Economies, cultures and civilizations, not just nature, run on cycles. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2312343/jewish/Chapter-7-Hillel-and-Rabbi-Akiva.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11284" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2789" RevisionGUID="54cda265-d71b-42b1-93d9-288519eecac3" CreationDate="2017-08-02T05:06:57.103" UserId="3960" Comment="added 12 characters in body" Text="Why there are gods with animal faces but human bodies in Egyptian pantheons? Are they out-numbered the human-faced ones? From biological perspective human is weak in physical (body) but strong in intellect (head), why would the Egyptians use such a counter-intuitive symbols to describe their gods that supposed to master certain potent powers beyond humans? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A) Almost all the gods in the Egyptian pantheon are with animal heads, does any god with human face? I recalled the Sphinx is but it a god? The face + body as human the non-hybrid is excluded, such as Isis, Osiris or Ra. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;B) Contrarily the Greco-Roman gods (hybrids) are usually with human faces but animal bodies, such as centaurs, satyrs or gorgons (not full animal bodies but just animal parts such as wings or snake-hairs?). Are there any exceptions? And are there more examples of hybrids? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If the above intuitive knowledge correct, why there is such a contrast in these two cultures? Or are there any relationship between these? From historical accounts Egypt and Greece had contacts it's logical to assume there were inter-exchanging between them. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11285" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2792" RevisionGUID="4c7ebafd-5eb9-428e-baea-86c25e8e42c1" CreationDate="2017-08-02T05:52:03.913" UserId="2774" Text="Here, there are confusions, things we can answer and things which we cannot.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Greeks and Egyptians&#xD;&#xA;--------------------&#xD;&#xA;Both Greeks and Egyptians are civilizations from the antique time. But:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Egypt runs from 3000 BC (yeah this is OLD) and disappears in 3O BC with Cleopatra VII Philator (THE Cleopatra). Egypt will know 3 different eras (old/Middle/new Kindom) and different levels of power. Egypt is at its apogee during the New Kingdom and will then slowly fall. Roughly 1000 BC representc the time Egypt stops doing anything significant. Note that Egypt is conquered by the Persian and then Greeks (Cleopatra being a Ptolemy IS Greek).&#xD;&#xA; - Greece is a baby. We can't say anything of Greece before 800 BC but Greece really starts to shine in 500 BC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can see here something: Egypt and Greece while both of the antique time does not exactly coincide with two things:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The moment they start to shine&#xD;&#xA; - The length of that shining&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Second point. At the moment Greece is starting to shine, the dominant civilization is Persia. And the relation between Greece and Persia is relatively more important that between Greece and Egypt. This is illustrated by the &quot;Medic war&quot; when King Xerxes tried to invade Greece and got his butt severely kicked (you have a fairly naive representation of that in the comic/movie 300)&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;It appears so that the Greeks we know (read Herodotus, Thucydides, Plato, Euripides [especially his Persia]) and you will see the Greeks dancing on their foot regarding Persians. Herodotus gives, for example, a fairly accurate description of Egypt (with his usual fantasy), but concerning his subject, Persian, try to count the number of time he is mentioning Persepolis (0 times in case you don't know).  So Greeks tend naturally to project themselves with Egypt, but rightfully a lot of their culture was from East. Their writing system and lots of their legends are rooted in the Near East much more than Egypt.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Egyptians God's head&#xD;&#xA;------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;this is the kind of question which is unanswerable. Not much more than explaining to you why Rembrandt while using so few light and Picasso was breaking his subject, either than: because they did... There is theory here and there about that: psychoanalysis, psychology, philosophy, extraterrestrials, if you are interested look for them.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now generally Egyptian painting is a little bit hard to understand for the modern standard we are just living with it &quot;culturally&quot;. Knowing why their gods have an animal head makes as sense as trying to understand why the Hell all their humans' head are looking on the side when their statues are so fairly accurate... Because they did...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Question A&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;Factually yes there is... Numerous gods were represented with a purely human form. And amusingly you can know them. This is, for example, Neith:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Egyptian version: [enter link description here][1]&#xD;&#xA; - Modern version from the game Smite: http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2014/131/2/7/smite__neith_by_hoihoisan-d7i142w.png&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More amusingly without looking for Neith (I cited here because of Smite... modern video game with success), Isis, Osiris are human faced.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;BUT it is slightly much more complex than that: [![enter image description here][2]][2]&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;This is the tablet of Narmer, representing the Predynastic King Narmer unifying the Upper and Lower Egypt. Significantly for your question, you can see 2 things: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - the falcon, traditionally linked with the Pharaoh as Horus, so almost without question, that falcon IS Horus, his hieroglyph is a falcon + a trait [![enter image description here][3]][3] (the trait simply means it is a subject, here the falcon god)&#xD;&#xA; - Up to the tablet, you have a bull/cow's head, another fairly traditional god in Egypt, Hathor, once again represented as an animal&#xD;&#xA;Now you see, that Horus is possessing:&#xD;&#xA; - a purely falcon form (called theriomorphic form), generally predynastic, Old Kingdom&#xD;&#xA; - the usual form you know from him: human body, falcon head (called therianthropic form), generally old Kingdom up to new Kingdom&#xD;&#xA; - a purely human form (yes), with generally him as a child and Isis holding him (and yes it looks a lot like &quot;madonna's illustrations of Christians... yes it does), generally Ptolemy's time [![enter image description here][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Those forms do not necessarily are present at the same moment in history but you have now a complete picture of Egyptian Gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Question B&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;The sphinx is one of the only representation of the other therianthropic form, human head, animal body. Note there is a lot of sphinx in Egypt they are highly praised during the New Kingdom and decorate mostly the tombs to guard them either as Lion body + human head, or falcon, panther, jackal (the one on Tuthankamon tomb was a jackal) etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c2/Neith.svg/350px-Neith.svg.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/PsrZl.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/qVs5M.png&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ghB5O.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11286" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2793" RevisionGUID="e9cf7ade-ccd2-45cf-88a8-b8f85649314a" CreationDate="2017-08-02T09:47:15.600" UserId="4021" Text="How would you say &quot;questions&quot; in Norse? How would the wrote it in runes? Does it has any important or philosophical meaning in the Eddas?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11287" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2793" RevisionGUID="e9cf7ade-ccd2-45cf-88a8-b8f85649314a" CreationDate="2017-08-02T09:47:15.600" UserId="4021" Text="How do you say and write &quot;Question&quot; in Norse?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11288" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2793" RevisionGUID="e9cf7ade-ccd2-45cf-88a8-b8f85649314a" CreationDate="2017-08-02T09:47:15.600" UserId="4021" Text="|norse|runes|prose-edda|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11289" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2794" RevisionGUID="6101643a-f299-4540-b4f3-a33a0b4e6f26" CreationDate="2017-08-02T10:10:22.390" UserId="666" Text="Questions have very important meaning in the Eddas; large parts of them are structured around a question-answer format (e.g. *[Gylfaginning][1]* in *Snorri's Edda* and *[Vafþrúðnismál][2]* in the *Poetic Edda*). This seems to have been a very common form for teaching and learning esoteric knowledge, and for showing off your learning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Vafþrúðnismál* is a good example, in which Odin goes to the ancient giant Vafþrúðnir to learn more about the world: the two of them engage in a competition about who knows the most of the universe. If Odin would fail, he would be forced to stay in Vafþrúðnir's hall for the rest of time, and ultimately he has to resort to a trick question: &quot;What did Odin whisper in the ear of Baldr when he was laid on his funerary ship?&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the word would be, the base verb would probably be *[spyrja][3]*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gylfaginning&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaf%C3%BEr%C3%BA%C3%B0nism%C3%A1l&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://onpweb.nfi.sc.ku.dk/webart/s/sp/74664frm.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11290" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2795" RevisionGUID="2fbfa114-ae03-4be9-8ca4-1ead834174f4" CreationDate="2017-08-02T11:53:03.410" UserId="4036" Text="I'm wondering what the difference is between Ra and Horus. I know there are both the gods of the sun/sky." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11291" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2795" RevisionGUID="2fbfa114-ae03-4be9-8ca4-1ead834174f4" CreationDate="2017-08-02T11:53:03.410" UserId="4036" Text="What is the difference between Ra and Horus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11292" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2795" RevisionGUID="2fbfa114-ae03-4be9-8ca4-1ead834174f4" CreationDate="2017-08-02T11:53:03.410" UserId="4036" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11293" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2796" RevisionGUID="6404491f-fc87-4b3a-a6f5-23cd65f14982" CreationDate="2017-08-02T18:47:41.580" UserId="2892" Text="Egyptian Mythology is not my area of focus, but I'll attempt a high-level answer.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both are associated with the sky, and they even seem to merge in the form of [Ra-Horakhty][1].  Merging of gods is not uncommon, as civilizations often need to absorb multiple gods with similar functions and domains.  *[See [Pallas and Athena][2]--in this model, Athena &quot;accidentally&quot; kills her friend and takes on her name, in essence, absorbing Pallas.  [Syncretism][3] would be the fancy term;]* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Ra's function is more primal, and his domains are wider than Horus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ra's domain is not just the sky, but the earth and underworld, and Ra is held to be the creator of all life on earth, in addition to the seasons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Horus, although very ancient, becomes the son of Isis and Osiris, no less important, but of more limited domain&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Horus is said to be associated with the sky, war and hunting, all of which are reflected by his fierce falcon visage.  Where Ra is also a god of the underworld, Osiris takes on this function in relation Horus.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_________________________________________________________________&#xD;&#xA;Sorry for not providing more links--I was having trouble finding reliable online resources.  Although I relied largely on the wikis for Ra and Horus, which have some citations, hopefully, in providing general mythological context, this answer will be of some value.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra#Gods_merged_with_Ra&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pallas_(daughter_of_Triton)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syncretism" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11294" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2669" RevisionGUID="b4bdcead-56a8-4f93-859a-87c2b982c1ac" CreationDate="2017-08-02T19:21:24.140" UserId="1317" Comment="Give poor Hunefer some credit!" Text="***[Ma'at][1]*** is the ancient Egyptian goddess of Truth, and is represented by a feather in the ancient [Egyptian Book of the Dead][2]. The feather determines the truthfulness of the deceased.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The deceased is brought before [Osiris][3] and recites ritual declarations of his purity. But judgement is not rendered until the deceased's heart is weighed against the feather of Ma'at. If the heart and feather balance, then the deceased has been truthful and goes on to eternal life. If not, the Devourer [Ammit][4] takes him. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This jpeg from Wikipedia shows a scene, similar ro a multi-panel comic strip from the sarcophagus of one [Hunefer][5], a scribe who lived during the 19th Dynasty, about 1300 BCE. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the middle panel, Hunefer's heart (on the left side of the scale) is being weighed against the feather (on the right side) with Osiris presiding and [Anubis][6] and Ammit looking on. On the right, Horus presents Hunefer (who has passed the test) to Osiris.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![BD_Hunefer][7]][7]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Jpeg source: [Wikipedia: File:BD_Hunefer.jpg][8], Original on display in the [British Museum][9]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maat&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_the_Dead&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammit&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunefer&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anubis&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/infxB.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BD_Hunefer.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://www.britishmuseum.org/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11295" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2791" RevisionGUID="49686263-5083-4365-8d06-5e8fa62d19a2" CreationDate="2017-08-02T20:19:58.180" UserId="2892" Comment="added 1294 characters in body" Text="My feeling, coming from the literary side of the house *(which is to say my study of mythology and language is for the purpose of creative endeavor,)* is that Frazer's ideas never went away--it was merely the scholarship that was disputed. *Serious scholarship is distinct from &quot;poetic truth&quot;.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I see Frazer's influence in writers like Eliot, Yeats and Robert Graves, who themselves had a significant impact on 20th century literature.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I saw a staring virgin stand &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Where holy Dionysus died, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And tear the heart out of his side. &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And lay the heart upon her hand &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And bear that beating heart away; &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And then did all the Muses sing &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Of Magnus Annus at the spring, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;As though God's death were but a play. &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Two Songs from a Play][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The play referenced in the title of the poem is [Yeats' The Resurrection][2].  Theologians and scholars can analyze the subject ad infinitum, but from the standpoint of mythology and literature, these views will always be secondary to the work of the great poets, and Yeats is certainly one of those poets who can stand alongside the greatest poets of antiquity.  In other words, Yeats contributes to, and expands, the canon. His literary capability and insight, in conjunction with his status, make him eminently qualified to do so. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More lately this influence is strongly seen in creators of mythology such as Neil Gaiman and Alan Moore, who had a similar impact on their mediums as Eliot and Yeats had on poetry. Lovecraft, another author influence by Frazer, produced work that has been widely mythologized in subsequent work. In essence, Lovecraft creates a new mythological canon. These are just a few examples.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The concept never died&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is just as compelling and as relevant today as when Frazer wrote about it.&#xD;&#xA;_______________________________________________________________&#xD;&#xA;In a religious context, one way to regard this archetype is as the *mythological* component, distinct from the ethical component.  From this perspective, Jesus' main function as Messiah was the introduction of the new Golden Rule: the love of the other as the self.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*([This idea was presented by Hillel, and subsequently reinforced by Akiva][3] in the Common Era, with the idea that &quot;the rest is [merely] commentary&quot;.  In those cases, they were referring to the Old Testament, but the same case can, and has, been made for Christianity.)* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Post-[Nash](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Forbes_Nash_Jr.) the Golden Rule has has found mathematical validation in the [superrational strategy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superrationality), liberating the ethical component from the mythological. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yet I still think the decline/generation model is extremely relevant--Game Theory may be cast as the mathematical analysis of equilibria and cyclic models are quite important.  Economies, cultures and civilizations, not just nature, run on cycles. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://rpo.library.utoronto.ca/poems/two-songs-play&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.scribd.com/doc/75962581/The-Resurrection-W-B-Yeats&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2312343/jewish/Chapter-7-Hillel-and-Rabbi-Akiva.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11296" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2797" RevisionGUID="885d74ca-e1bc-4fd4-8391-7e9232214461" CreationDate="2017-08-02T20:23:42.157" UserId="3373" Text="The comment above stated already that  mixing Deities and attributes was not uncommon (astralistic bionic statues, appeal and invocation rites and ancient magic) and depending on the region and temple (**Noma**) and the period on age with which we concern ourselves it would be interesting to retrace and compare the attributes of **Ra** - commonly identified with the **Sun disk** - and **Horus**  - the **Falcon-Headed Cosmic God of the Ennead**, **son of Isis** identified as one with **Sothis: Sirius** - in different dynasties. We might explore many occult meanings, but let's keep to the narration pursued in this academic text, to keep it succint: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Although the left eye of the supreme cosmic deity is the lunar eye of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Horus, and his right eye the solar eye of Re, there are numerous&#xD;&#xA;&gt; associations of the two eyes. In the Coffin Texts Hathor even states&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that she &quot;is that eye of Horus&quot;. The two eyes are both protectors of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their cosmic lord, and in this capacity they combine in a class of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; amulets taking the form of the Udjat-eye, with the figure of a goddess&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on one side. An understanding of these amulets clarifies several&#xD;&#xA;&gt; obscure text passages referring to the apotropaic eye; the amulets also appear to relate to the heliacal rising of Sothis (Sirius Star) and the celebration of the coming of the new year&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Darnel, J. C. (1997). The Apotropaic Goddess in the Eye Goddess in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eye. Studien Zur Altägyptischen Kultur, 24, 35–48.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The possible **relation** between **Ra** and **Horus** is represented here, not inflating or deflating any analogies in metaphysics or mystery schools: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Although the left eye of the supreme cosmic deity is the lunar eye of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Horus, and his right eye the solar eye of Re, there are numerous&#xD;&#xA;&gt; associations of the two eyes. In the Coffin Texts Hathor even states&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that she &quot;is that eye of Horus&quot;. The two eyes are both protectors of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their cosmic lord, and in this capacity they combine in a class of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; amulets taking the form of the Udjat-eye, with the figure of a goddess&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on one side. An understanding of these amulets clarifies several&#xD;&#xA;&gt; obscure text passages referring to the apotropaic eye; the amulets&#xD;&#xA;&gt; also appear to relate to the heliacal rising of Sothis and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; celebration of the coming of the new year.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The religious importance of the eyes of the supreme cosmic deity for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the ancient Egyptians is well known, and certain convolutions and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; interchanges between the two eyes and various cosmological&#xD;&#xA;&gt; interpretations are well attested and acknowledged, though perhaps&#xD;&#xA;&gt; less well understood.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; For the ancient Egyptians the sun and the moon could represent the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; right and left eyes respectively of the supreme deity. The lunar left&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eye can appear as the eye of Horus, the solar right eye as the eye of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Re. Both the solar eye and the eye of Horus can be the avenging eye&#xD;&#xA;&gt; who shoots arrows of fire into the enemies of the solar deity; the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; solar eye is also a goddess, the wandering daughter of the sun, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the womb of the solar mother from which the morning Sun is born. which&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the morning sun is born. In the nature of the raging, angry goddess of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the solar eye the Horus eye and wandering daughter merge. There are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; many associations and interchanges of the eye of Horus and the goddess&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the eye of the sun in Egyptian texts and representations, some more&#xD;&#xA;&gt; explicit than others. A goddess associated with the fiery power of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sun may protect the eye of Horus&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; Darnel, J. C. (1997). The Apotropaic Goddess in the Eye Goddess in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; Eye. Studien Zur Altägyptischen Kultur, 24, 35–48." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11297" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2798" RevisionGUID="bfbe8c7f-97e5-4e6d-ab6c-fe85aef57ae2" CreationDate="2017-08-02T23:56:39.710" UserId="2682" Text="BRIEF&#xD;&#xA;=====&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no Greek god called by this name. The character in question, according to the Greco-Roman mythographers, is someone—most likely a regular garden-variety *man*—who is supposed to have been an early leader {or an ancestor or even the very first} of the *`Ioudaioi`* [`Iudæi`, “Judaeans/Jews”].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Plutarch alludes to a legend which says that this someone was a son of Typhon, and the brother of Hierosolymos. In Greek mythology Typhon was a massive and terrifying many-headed monster who fought against the Olympians. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While interpreting the religion of Egypt for their own purposes, the Greeks associated Typhon with the malevolent Egyptian god Seth. Hierosolymos is supposed to have been the founder of Jerusalem. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All this is basically part of the Ancient Greek version of something like a tabloid article made up to defame a certain ethno-religious group.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;THE BREAKDOWN&#xD;&#xA;=============&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The closest that the specific character in question comes to being a deity, in the Greco-Roman texts in which he is mentioned, is as *the son of* a god. But first there are at least three levels of confusion needing to be sifted through in order to even arrive at that conclusion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1.	This information comes from the *parody* of a Levantine people’s culture using the Greco-Roman reinterpretation of an Ancient Egyptian myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2.	In the course of the process of #1, much confusion—some of it seemingly deliberate—of particularly the characters’ names, their origins and meanings, has transpired both in ancient times and, perhaps, in the online “Cascade Assembly” article to which you have linked your Question. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3.	Words and names have a knack for changing across languages, cultures and timespans so that there end up being numerous ways of saying exactly the same thing. At some point the idea develops that these different words/names inherently mean completey different, unrelated things, even though they originally did not.     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Fluidity of Languages**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here’s an example of what I mean by #3. Over the course of the so-called Middle Ages, the Roman Empire fell, sort of in two pieces. First, the Western piece, in Europe, was overtaken by Germanic tribes. Later on the Eastern piece, in Asia, was at war with the Seljuqs, a Turkish dynasty which ruled Persia. *Rûm*, “Roman,” is what these Turkish Persians called their enemies. Once they had taken over a large part of the Eastern Roman Empire, the Seljuqs considered themselves Romans as well, and their domain is even referred to as the Sultanate of Rûm, and, from Persian *Saljūqiyāni Rūm*, “Seljukian Rome.”&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the 1200s AD, in the same era, there was a Persian Sufi poet best known today in English as Rūmī, “Roman” or “from Rûm.”&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;  What the Cascade Assembly article is suggesting about the word Ἰουδαῖος is sort of like saying that because there was a Sufi theologian and writer named Rūmī, the name therefore is a strictly Islamic term meaning “Sunni mystic poet and theologian.” &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the same way, however, that *Rûm* and *Rūmī* are not inherently Muslim designations (the Christian communities from this part of the world also use these terms for themselves), and simply mean “Rome/Roman,” there is nothing inherently “pagan” about Ἰουδαῖος, which is merely the Greek word for “Jew” or “Judaean.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The term “Roman,” whether in English, Arabic, Turkish or Persian, has been applied to a variety of different groups of people: the Ancient Latins of the city of Rome in Italy; 12th-century AD Iranian Muslims; Greek-speaking Christians in modern Anatolia, etc. In like manner, the term “Ἰουδαῖος/Iudæus/Jew” has been used to mean, variously, a citizen of the ancient Israelite kingdom of Yehudah [Judah]; one of the Zimbabwean Amalemba; an Arabic-speaking member of the “Paradesi” community in India; any adherent of the Torah of Mosheh [Moses] with or without any Hebrew ancestry; and so on and so forth. The inherent meanings of *Rūmī* and Ἰουδαῖος, nevertheless, are basic and unchanged, in spite of who they are applied to, and at whatever degrees of validity. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Frequently, the form of a name may mutate quite dramatically between languages. English is very confusing in this way because many names in this tongue have first been filtered through several other speech-forms from their original before arriving here. E.g., *James* is an English version of *Yaʿăqoḇ* [Jacob], the name of the father of the people of Yisra’el [Israel]. *James* comes from a French rendition of the Late Latin corruption (*Jacomus*) of the Old Latin translation (*`Iacobus`*) of the Greek translation (*`Iákōbos`*) of *Yaʿăqoḇ*.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Jew* has a similarly trajectory, coming from the Middle English version (*`Iewe`*) of the Old French corruption (*Juieu*) of the Latin translation (*`Iudæus`*) of the Greek rendition (*`Ioudaios`*) of the Aramaic version (*Y'hūdāi*) of Hebrew *Yəhūḏāh*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The middle syllables of certain words get eroded&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; in Old French, thus we lose the *-co-* in *Ja&lt;strike&gt;co&lt;/strike&gt;mus*, to get *James*&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt;, and the *-da-* in *Ju&lt;strike&gt;da&lt;/strike&gt;eus*, to get *Juieu*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The pronunciation of the letter J, which was initially just a fancy way of writing the letter `I`, also gets emphasised until it becomes a much more solid sound than in its original accentuation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Strangely, the author of that Cascade Assembly essay seems to be aware of these basic features of language but then insists that Greek *Ioudaios* and English *Jew* are somehow mistranslations or “the *wrong* words for” *Yəhūḏāh*. To a certain degree, I happen to agree with that assessment. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To translate anything from one language or script to another is essentially to distort its original intent. There is no way to convey the exact shades of meaning in perfect configuration from Hebrew into Greek or from Aramaic into English. By translating anything, you have hopelessly altered it into a different sense, turning it into idioms and expressions that the speaker/writer of the original words/statements/texts never had in mind. Translation is (inadvertently) corruption. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Having said that, however, if that rule were to be applied with 100% rigid strictness then language would be static and translation would never occur in any place or in any way. The problem with the linked article is that it is inconsistent, accepting some translation from some languages as “true” and others, quite arbitrarily, as “untrue.” It even makes up its own “correct” English version of the word in question. Half of the things asserted in the article are correct but mixed in with a lot of misapprehended information, which basically is misleading. This is not a new phenomenon, though, and this kind of confusion, mistranslation and misinformation is something like what happened in ancient times in the mythology that you’re asking about. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. The 30th Surah (Chapter) of *al-Qur’an* is entitled *Ar-Rūm*, Arabic for “The Romans,” and refers to the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars today like to call it the “Byzantine” Empire, from *Byzantion*, the previous name of the city of Constantinople (now Istanbul, Turkey). When Constantinople was founded, it was nicknamed “New Rome” and was made into the capital of the Roman Empire, over against the original Rome in Italy itself.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. This is just a title, however, his personal name being Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad, in much the same way that the Italian Renaissance artist Leonardo di ser Piero is better known as da Vinci, “of [the town of] Vinci.”&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. The technical term is “elided”.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;4. *Jacques*, the Modern French version of this name comes from *Jacobus* (*Iacobus*), and in this instance it is the *-ob-* syllable which has been elided.&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Egyptian Story**    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This Question takes us to the most famous Egyptian myth, in which Geb (the Earth) and Nūt (the Sky) become the parents of two sons, Asaru (or Ūsïrē, whom the Greeks called *Osiris*) and Seth, and two daughters, Aset and Nebet-het (called *Isis* and *Nephthys*, respectively, in Greek). Asaru married Aset while Seth married Nebet-het. Asaru and Aset became king and queen of Egypt. Everyone loved Asaru except for his own brother Seth, who was jealous of him and killed him, chopping his corpse to pieces and scattering the pieces all over the land. Aset, with help from Nebet-het, managed to reassemble Asaru’s body, resurrect him and conceive a son by him, who was named Ḥor (or Ḥeru, who is called *Horus* in Greek). Asaru descended into the Underworld to become the god, ruler and judge of the dead over there while Ḥor went to war against his uncle Seth over which of them would now rule Egypt. Eventually Ḥor defeated Seth and became the last of the gods to be king of the country. Seth thus came to represent the barren red desert region to the west of the Nile, which, later in the mythology, was also the direction of death and departure from the realm of the living.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Divine War in Greece**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Greek mythology Zeus defeated his own father the Titan Kronos in battle and became the king of the gods. Kronos’ mother Gaia, the Earth, then gave birth to a cosmic-sized monster named Typhon so that he could avenge Kronos. Typhon had a hundred fire-breathing dragons’ heads in place of his arms, and he quite nearly killed Zeus, but he too was eventually vanquished and he was buried under Mt Aetna in Sicily. Volcanic eruptions and earthquakes were supposed to be him rumbling around under the ground, struggling to get free and causing the mountains to spew molten rock. In a different version he is killed and, like his brother Kronos before him, cast into the deepest pit in the Underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Combos**  &#xD;&#xA;     &#xD;&#xA;For some reason the character whom the Greeks thought most resembled the Egyptian Seth was their own Typhon, so in their retelling of the story of Asaru and Seth, Asaru is called Osiris but Seth is called Typhon. The details of the story change quite a bit, though, and more details are added, seemingly randomly in some versions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In 100 AD, a collection of essays by the Greco-Roman writer Plutarch was published, entitled *Ethika* (and called *Moralia* in Latin). The first essay in Book 5 of this collection is called *Peri Isidos kai Osiridos*, “On Isis and Osiris,” which records many details of Ancient Egyptian priestly rites as well as the story of Osiris’ murder and restoration, together with some densely allegorical interpretation of these myths and the characters featured in them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [the second portion of the essay](https://archive.org/stream/moraliainfiftee05plut#page/76/mode/2up), Plutarch remarks very briefly about Typhon, Hierosolymos and Ioudaios, at which bit of information he seems to roll his eyes in disbelief, skating quickly over it and on to the next thing. Referencing the conflict between Ḥor (Horus) and Seth (Typhon), the remark is as follows.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“But those who relate that Typhon's flight from the battle was made on the back of a donkey and lasted for seven days, and that after he had made his escape, he became the father of sons, Hierosolymos and Ioudaios, are manifestly, as the very names show, attempting to drag Jewish traditions into the legend.” &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;William Watson Goodwin’s translation ends the sentence with “they are manifestly attempting, as is shown by the very matter, to wrest into this fable the relations of the Jews.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greek word that Goodwin is translating as “fable” (and which Frank Cole Babbitt renders, in the preceding quote, as “legend”) is *mythos*. Also in this passage of the Greek text there is not really a word which means “[*Jewish*] **traditions**” (as per Babbitt) or “[*the*] **relations** [*of the Jews*]” (going by Goodwin). These English phrases are Babbitt’s and Goodwin’s translations of the single word Ἰουδαϊκὰ (`Ioudaïkà`), “Judaica,” [which word by itself](http://www.dictionary.com/browse/judaica?s=t) bears a broader semantic range.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**THE ROSCHER MATERIAL**  &#xD;&#xA;***Reference 1***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That single sentence of Plutarch’s work is what Roscher’s Dictionary which you have mentioned is referencing. Plutarch never expounds on what any of that is all about, as he seems to have no interest in this version of this eponymous origin story, but the duration of the escape to which he alludes is supposed to be an *aition* (origin explanation) for the seven-day week in Hebrew tradition and the emphasis on the Sabbath Day which ends it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Gnosticism of the centuries around Plutarch’s time there were some pretty weird connections drawn between donkeys, Seth-Typhon, and the God of the Hebrews (whose name was translated—or, more accurately, trans*liter*ated—into Greek as `Iao`, who was further identified with Seth-Typhon). Part of this is supposed to be based on certain passages in the Hebrew Scriptures, especially the Torah (the “Instruction” Books), which seem to infer to the importance of donkeys. These late Greco-Egyptian Gnostic riffs seem to be the source-pool for Plutarch’s very brief mention of *Ioudaios*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Plutarch, however, never says that Ioudaios is supposed to be a god or that he was worshipped by anyone. This strange story is one of many attempts, from around the same period, to link the *Ioudaioi*/Jews, in terms of Greek mythology, to other peoples like the Thebans, the Cretans and the Trojans. This is achieved almost exclusively through some word-play speculating upon the similarity between the word Ioudaios and the names of other characters and places in Greek myth. The *aition* to which Plutarch alludes bears negative sentiments towards the Jews while there were numerous others which were positive, some of them by writers who were Hellenised Jews or of Greco-Jewish stock or persuasion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Reference 2:* Stephanos Byzantios**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roscher’s Dictionary also cites the [*Lexikon* of Stephanos Byzantios](https://archive.org/stream/stephanibyzanti00meingoog#page/n346/mode/2up) [better known in English as Stephanus of Byzantium], which traces the *Ioudaioi* and the *`Idoumaioi`* (Idumaeans/ Edomites) to Ioudas (“Judas,” a Greek form of Yəhūḏāh/Judah) and Idoumaia (Idumaea, the Roman name for the territory of Edom). The *Lexikon* tells us that, according to Alexander Polyhistor, Ioudas and Idoumaia [or rather *Idoumaios* {Idumaeus}?] were the sons of the powerful legendary Assyrian queen Semiramis (who herself was the daughter of a goddess). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But the portion of the relevant passage of the *Lexikon* that is actually cited by Roscher’s Dictionary is when Stephanus says that another writer, Claudius Iolaus, traces the Ioudaioi to Ούδαίοσ (Oudaios), whom the Romans called Udæus. This comes from the story of the Canaanite prince Kadmos [Cadmus], whose sister Europa was abducted by Zeus and brought to the island of Crete, eventually giving her name to the European continent. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kadmos ended up in the region of Boiotia [Boeotia] during his search for his sister. Here he killed a dragon which had attacked some of his men and, upon the prompting of the goddess Athena, he planted the dragon’s teeth in the ground. These teeth then spontaneously sprouted into huge armed men who fought and killed one another until only five of them remained. These survivors became the ancestors of the five oldest families of Thebes, the city which Kadmos then founded on the same spot. Ekhion, one of these five Spartoi, “Sown Men,” became the son-in-law of Kadmos. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Oudaios in particular was an ancestor of the famous Theban prophet Teiresias and also accompanied Kadmos’ grandson the wine-god Dionysos, as one of his soldiers, in the god’s war campaign against King Deriades of India. (Incidentally other writers, including Aristotle, trace the Jews to Indian philosophers, based on the apparent similarity between *Ioudaioi* and *`Indoi`*, “Indians.”)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The connection between the Jews and the Cretans is supposed to be that *Ioudaioi* comes from *`Idaioi`*, “Idaeans,” the inhabitants of Mt Ida on Crete Island, who had reared Zeus when the king of the gods was a baby. The link between the Jews and the Trojans comes from a tribe called the Solymoi (called *Solymi* by the Romans) which inhabited a region of Asia Minor in the vicinity of Troy and are supposed to have been descended from Solymos, a son of either Zeus or Ares. In this *aition*, Hierosolymos, a Greco-Roman version of the name Jerusalem, was built by the Solymoi.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**CONCLUSION**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These are just a sampling of the numerous speculative fictions about Jewish origins in ancient Greco-Roman literature. The aforementioned Indians were supposed, according Nonnus’ *Dionysiaka*, to have been named after Indos [*`Indus`* in Latin], an earth-born “champion of warfare with towering limbs”. *Dionysiaka* 18 seems to be saying that Indos fought on Kronos’ side during the War of the Titans, ending up slain in battle by Zeus. In a footnote to their translation of this passage of Nonnus’ epic, WHD Rouse, HJ Rose &amp; LR Lind say the following:&#xD;&#xA;“The giant Indos seems to have been invented for the occasion. Greeks, especially in later times, were very free with such stop-gap ancestors of peoples whose history they did not know, as Italos, king of the Italians, Iudaios [*sic*]&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; and Hierosolymos, leaders of the Jews, and so forth.”&#xD;&#xA;[Page 82 of Vol. 2]         &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;5. **`Iudaios`** seems to be the German spelling of **`Ioudaios`**, which [with the first “o” included] is a closer transliteration of the Greek Ἰουδαῖος.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;POSTSCRIPT&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even though Wilhelm Heinrich Roscher serves as General Editor of the *Ausführliches Lexikon der griechischen und römischen Mythologie*, somewhat ironically (at least I think so), this *Lexikon*’s “Iudaios” article is actually written by Otto Höfer, one of his fellow contributors. The article immediately preceding the “Iudaios” one, on the other hand, is entitled “Iudaea,” and, incidentally, is personally by Roscher himself. Here it is:&lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Iudaea article from Roscher Lexikon de Mythologie][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is my [novice's] translation thereto, with some explanatory notes added:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Iudaea/Judaea**, the personification of the Jewish lands often&#xD;&#xA;&gt; appears on coins of Vespasianus either in front of a palm tree or in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; front of a tropaion [*victory monument*], or on a Lorica [*body&#xD;&#xA;&gt; armour*], or between arms, and weeping (*Cohen*, Ed. 1 S. 384 ff.).&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Similar representations can be found on the coins of Titus (*Cohen*,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; see pp. 438 ff., 112ff.).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Vespasian denarius][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;`Iudæa Capta`, *&quot;Captured Judaea,&quot;* denarius *such as described by Roscher*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Vespasian[us] was the Roman Emperor who, through his son Titus (who later succeeded him on the throne), violently crushed the Jewish uprising centred at Jerusalem in the 70s AD. By the end of the conflict the famous Jerusalem Temple as well as another Jewish temple in Egypt were completely destroyed, leaving Judaea Province devastated. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Vespasian Judaea Capta Sestertius][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Sestertius *with a similar personification*&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The personification described here is similar to other countries and territories which were personified by the Romans, such as their provinces of Mauretania and Egypt on the southern shores of the Mediterranean Sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Gallia/Germania? at the Hadrianeum][4]][4]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Carole Raddato, in [“The Hadrianeum and the Personifications of Provinces” article](https://followinghadrian.com/2015/01/21/the-hadrianeum-and-the-personifications-of-provinces/) of her *Following Hadrian* blog, speculates that this is the personification of a Roman province, either Gallia [Gaul, now France] or Germania [now Germany and several of its neighbouring countries], from the temple of the deified emperor Hadrian.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also [some debate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africa_(goddess)) about an apparent Roman goddess called Africa, which seems to have arisen from the time of the conqueror Pompey and his depictions of the southern Roman province of Africa as a woman. This may, however, be not much different from the aforementioned misunderstanding about Ioudaios (the “son of Typhon” in Plutarch’s *Ethika*). The confusion here may be similar to saying that there was actually a Roman goddess called Iudæa (a claim which I'm surprised that &quot;Cascade Assembly&quot; article hasn't yet leapt upon).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;6. *With thanks to Mario [another StackExchange user] for providing the link to it (in his own Answer to this Question).*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/eGDOp.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/tudCc.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/M5LrW.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/9WKJD.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11298" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2798" RevisionGUID="dc642c98-5afb-46e6-88cb-9c6e73d0abd4" CreationDate="2017-08-03T06:44:58.007" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar, corrected spelling, improved formatting &amp; added some details" Text="BRIEF&#xD;&#xA;=====&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no Greek god called by this name. The character in question, according to the Greco-Roman mythographers, is someone—most likely a regular garden-variety *man*—who is supposed to have been an early leader {or an ancestor or even the very first} of the *`Ioudaioi`* [`Iudæi`, “Judaeans/Jews”].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Plutarch alludes to a legend which says that this someone was a son of Typhon, and the brother of Hierosolymos. In Greek mythology Typhon was a massive and terrifying many-headed monster who fought against the Olympians. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While interpreting the religion of Egypt for their own purposes, the Greeks associated Typhon with the malevolent Egyptian god Seth. Hierosolymos (Latinised as *Hierosolymus*) is supposed to have been the founder of Jerusalem. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All this is basically part of the Ancient Greek version of something like a tabloid article made up to defame a certain ethno-religious group.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;THE BREAKDOWN&#xD;&#xA;=============&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The closest that the specific character in question comes to being a deity, in the Greco-Roman texts in which he is mentioned, is as *the son of* a god. But first there are at least three levels of confusion needing to be sifted through in order to even arrive at that conclusion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1.	This information comes from the *parody* of a Levantine people’s culture using the Greco-Roman reinterpretation of an Ancient Egyptian myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2.	In the course of the process of #1, much confusion—some of it seemingly deliberate—of particularly the characters’ names, their origins and meanings, has transpired both in ancient times and, perhaps, in the online “Cascade Assembly” article to which you have linked your Question. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3.	Words and names have a knack for changing across languages, cultures and timespans so that there end up being numerous ways of saying exactly the same thing. At some point the idea develops that these different words/names inherently mean completey different, unrelated things, even though they originally did not.     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Fluidity of Languages**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here’s an example of what I mean by #3. Over the course of the so-called Middle Ages, the Roman Empire fell, sort of in two pieces. First, the Western piece, in Europe, was overtaken by Germanic tribes. Later on the Eastern piece, in Asia, was at war with the Seljuqs, a Turkish dynasty which ruled Persia. *Rûm*, “Roman,” is what these Turkish Persians called their enemies. Once they had taken over a large part of the Eastern Roman Empire, the Seljuqs considered themselves Romans as well, and their domain is even referred to as the Sultanate of Rûm, and, from Persian *Saljūqiyāni Rūm*, “Seljukian Rome.”&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the 1200s AD, in the same era, there was a Persian Sufi poet best known today in English as Rūmī, “Roman” or “from Rûm.”&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;  What the Cascade Assembly article is suggesting about the word Ἰουδαῖος is sort of like saying that because there was a Sufi theologian and writer named Rūmī, the name therefore is a strictly Islamic term meaning “Sunni mystic poet and theologian.” &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the same way, however, that *Rûm* and *Rūmī* are not inherently Muslim designations (the Christian communities from this part of the world also use these terms for themselves), and simply mean “Rome/Roman,” there is nothing inherently “pagan” about Ἰουδαῖος, which is merely the Greek word for “Jew” or “Judaean.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The term “Roman,” whether in English, Arabic, Turkish or Persian, has been applied to a variety of different groups of people: the Ancient Latins of the city of Rome in Italy; 12th-century AD Iranian Muslims; Greek-speaking Christians in modern Anatolia, etc. In like manner, the term “Ἰουδαῖος/Iudæus/Jew” has been used to mean, variously, a citizen of the ancient Israelite kingdom of Yehudah [Judah]; one of the Zimbabwean Amalemba; an Arabic-speaking member of the “Paradesi” community in India; any adherent of the Torah of Mosheh [Moses] with or without any Hebrew ancestry; and so on and so forth. The inherent meanings of *Rūmī* and Ἰουδαῖος, nevertheless, are basic and unchanged, in spite of who they are applied to, and at whatever degrees of validity. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Frequently, the form of a name may mutate quite dramatically between languages. English is very confusing in this way because many names in this tongue have first been filtered through several other speech-forms from their original before arriving here. E.g., *James* is an English version of *Yaʿăqoḇ* [Jacob], the name of the father of the people of Yisra’el [Israel]. *James* comes from a French rendition of the Late Latin corruption (*Jacomus*) of the Old Latin translation (*`Iacobus`*) of the Greek translation (*`Iákōbos`*) of *Yaʿăqoḇ*.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Jew* has a similar trajectory, coming from the Middle English version (*`Iewe`*) of the Old French corruption (*Juieu*) of the Latin translation (*`Iudæus`*) of the Greek rendition (*`Ioudaios`*) of the Aramaic version (*Y'hūdāi*) of Hebrew *Yəhūḏāh*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The middle syllables of certain words get eroded&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; in Old French, thus we lose the *-co-* in *Ja&lt;strike&gt;co&lt;/strike&gt;mus*, to get *James*&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt;, and the *-da-* in *Ju&lt;strike&gt;da&lt;/strike&gt;eus*, to get *Juieu*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The pronunciation of the letter J, which was initially just a fancy way of writing the letter `I`, also gets emphasised until it becomes a much more solid sound than in its original accentuation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Strangely, the author of that Cascade Assembly essay seems to be aware of these basic features of language but then insists that Greek *Ioudaios* and English *Jew* are somehow mistranslations or “the *wrong* words for” *Yəhūḏāh*. To a certain degree, I happen to agree with that assessment. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To translate anything from one language or script to another is essentially to distort its original intent. There is no way to convey the exact shades of meaning in perfect configuration from Hebrew into Greek or from Aramaic into English. By translating anything, you have hopelessly altered it into a different sense, turning it into idioms and expressions that the speaker/writer of the original words/statements/texts never had in mind. Translation is (inadvertently) corruption. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Having said that, however, if that rule were to be applied with 100% rigid strictness then language would be static and translation would never occur in any place or in any way. The problem with the linked article is that it is inconsistent, accepting some translation from some languages as “true” and others, quite arbitrarily, as “untrue.” It even makes up its own “correct” English version of the word in question. Half of the things asserted in the article are correct but mixed in with a lot of misapprehended information, which basically is misleading. This is not a new phenomenon, though, and this kind of confusion, mistranslation and misinformation is something like what happened in ancient times in the mythology that you’re asking about. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. The 30th Surah (Chapter) of *al-Qur’an* is entitled *Ar-Rūm*, Arabic for “The Romans,” and refers to the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars today like to call it the “Byzantine” Empire, from *Byzantion*, the previous name of the city of Constantinople (now Istanbul, Turkey). When Constantinople was founded, it was nicknamed “New Rome” and was made into the capital of the Roman Empire, over against the original Rome in Italy itself.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. This is just a title, however, his personal name being Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad, in much the same way that the Italian Renaissance artist Leonardo di ser Piero is better known as da Vinci, “of [the town of] Vinci.”&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. The technical term is “elided”.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;4. *Jacques*, the Modern French version of this name comes from *Jacobus* (*Iacobus*), and in this instance it is the *-ob-* syllable which has been elided.&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Egyptian Story**    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This Question takes us to the most famous Egyptian myth, in which Geb (the Earth) and Nūt (the Sky) become the parents of two sons, Asaru (or Ūsïrē, whom the Greeks called *Osiris*) and Seth, and two daughters, Aset and Nebet-het (called *Isis* and *Nephthys*, respectively, in Greek). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Asaru married Aset while Seth married Nebet-het. Asaru and Aset became king and queen of Egypt. Everyone loved Asaru except for his own brother Seth, who was jealous of him and killed him, chopping his corpse to pieces and scattering the pieces all over the land. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aset, with help from Nebet-het, managed to reassemble Asaru’s body, resurrect him and conceive a son by him, who was named Ḥor (or Ḥeru, who is called *Horus* in Greek). Asaru descended into the Underworld to become the god, ruler and judge of the dead over there while Ḥor went to war against his uncle Seth over which of them would now rule Egypt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eventually Ḥor defeated Seth and became the last of the gods to be king of the country. Seth thus came to represent the barren red desert region to the west of the Nile, which, later in the mythology, was also the direction of death and departure from the realm of the living.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Divine War in Greece**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Greek mythology Zeus defeated his own father the Titan Kronos in battle and became the king of the gods. Kronos’ mother Gaia, the Earth, then gave birth to a cosmic-sized monster named Typhon so that he could avenge Kronos. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Typhon had a hundred fire-breathing dragons’ heads in place of his arms, and he quite nearly killed Zeus, but he too was eventually vanquished and he was buried under Mt Aetna in Sicily. Volcanic eruptions and earthquakes were supposed to be him rumbling around under the ground, struggling to get free and causing the mountains to spew up molten rock. In a different version he is killed and, like his brother Kronos before him, cast into the deepest pit in the Underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Combos**  &#xD;&#xA;     &#xD;&#xA;For some reason, within the rogues' gallery of their own myths, the Greeks found Typhon to be the most compelling counterpart to the Egyptian Seth, so that in their retelling of the story of Asaru and Seth, Asaru is called Osiris but Seth is called Typhon. The details of the story change quite a bit, though, and more details are added, seemingly randomly in some versions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In 100 AD, a collection of essays by the Greco-Roman writer Plutarch was published, entitled *Ethika* (and called *Moralia* in Latin). The first essay in Book 5 of this collection is called *Peri Isidos kai Osiridos*, “On Isis and Osiris,” which records many details of Ancient Egyptian priestly rites as well as the story of Osiris’ murder and restoration, together with some densely allegorical interpretation of these myths and the characters featured in them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [the second portion of the essay](https://archive.org/stream/moraliainfiftee05plut#page/76/mode/2up), Plutarch remarks very briefly about Typhon, Hierosolymos and Ioudaios, at which bit of information he seems to roll his eyes in disbelief, skating quickly over it and on to the next thing. Referencing the conflict between Ḥor (Horus) and Seth (Typhon), the remark is as follows [*with my own emphasis*].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But those who relate that Typhon's flight from the battle was made on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the back of a donkey and lasted for seven days, and that after he had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; made his escape, he became the father of sons, **Hierosolymos and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ioudaios**, are manifestly, as the very names show, attempting to drag&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jewish traditions into the legend.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;William Watson Goodwin’s translation ends the sentence with “they are manifestly attempting, as is shown by the very matter, to wrest into this fable the relations of the Jews.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greek word that Goodwin is translating as “fable” (and which Frank Cole Babbitt renders, in the preceding quote, as “legend”) is *mythos*. Also in this passage of the Greek text there is not really a word which means “[*Jewish*] **traditions**” (as per Babbitt) or “[*the*] **relations** [*of the Jews*]” (going by Goodwin). These English phrases are Babbitt’s and Goodwin’s translations of the single word Ἰουδαϊκὰ (`Ioudaïkà`), “Judaica,” [which word by itself](http://www.dictionary.com/browse/judaica?s=t) bears a broader semantic range.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**THE ROSCHER MATERIAL**  &#xD;&#xA;***Reference 1***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That single sentence of Plutarch’s work is what Roscher’s Dictionary which you have mentioned is referencing. Plutarch never expounds on what any of that is all about, as he seems to have no interest in this version of this *aition* (origin tale), but the duration of the escape to which he alludes is supposed to explain the seven-day week in Hebrew tradition and its emphasis on the Sabbath Day which ends it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Gnosticism of the centuries around Plutarch’s time there were some pretty weird connections drawn between donkeys, Seth-Typhon, and the God of the Hebrews (whose name was translated—or, more accurately, trans*liter*ated—into Greek as `Iao`, and who was further identified with Seth-Typhon). Part of this is supposed to be based on certain passages in the Hebrew Scriptures, especially the Torah (the “Instruction” Books), which seem to infer the importance of donkeys. These late Greco-Egyptian Gnostic riffs seem to be the source-pool for Plutarch’s cursory citation of Ioudaios. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Plutarch, however, never says that Ioudaios (or his brother Hierosolymos) is supposed to be a god or that he was worshipped by anyone. This curious yarn is one of many attempts, from around the same period, to link the *Ioudaioi*/Jews, in terms of Greek mythology, to other peoples like the Thebans, the Cretans and the Trojans. This is achieved almost exclusively through the use of puns made between the word *Ioudaios* and the names of other characters and places in Greek myth. The *aition* in *Ethika* bears negative sentiments towards the Jews while there are numerous others, many of which are more favourably disposed towards them, some of them by writers who are Hellenised Jews or of Greco-Jewish stock or persuasion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Reference 2:* Stephanos Byzantios**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roscher’s Dictionary also cites the [*Ethnikon* of Stephanos Byzantios](https://archive.org/stream/stephanibyzanti00meingoog#page/n346/mode/2up) [better known in English as Stephanus of Byzantium], a 500s AD dictionary of the world's peoples, which traces the *Ioudaioi* and the *`Idoumaioi`* (Idumaeans/ Edomites) to Ioudas (“Judas,” a Greek form of Yəhūḏāh/Judah) and Idoumaia (the Greek name for the region of Edom, called *Idumaea* by the Romans). The *Ethnikon* tells us that, according to Alexander Polyhistor, Ioudas and Idoumaia [or rather *Idoumaios* {Idumaeus}?] were the sons of the powerful legendary Assyrian queen Semiramis (who herself was the daughter of a goddess). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But the portion of the relevant passage of the *Ethnikon* that is actually cited by the “Iudaios” article in Roscher’s Dictionary is when Stephanus says that another writer, Claudius Iolaus, traces the Ioudaioi to Ούδαίοσ (Oudaios), whom the Romans called Udæus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This comes from the story of the Canaanite prince Kadmos [Cadmus], whose sister Europa was abducted by Zeus and brought to the island of Crete, eventually giving her name to the European continent. Kadmos ended up in the region of Boiotia [Boeotia] during his search for his sister. Here he killed a dragon which had attacked some of his men and, upon the prompting of the goddess Athena, he planted the dragon’s teeth in the ground. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These teeth then spontaneously sprouted into huge armed men who fought one another to the death until only five of them remained. One of these survivors was named Oudaios. He and the other four remaining *Spartoi*, “Sown Ones,” became the founders of the five oldest families of Thebes, the city which Kadmos then built upon the same spot. (Ekhion, another of the five, married a daughter of Kadmos.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Kadmos’ grandson the wine-god Dionysos [Dionysus] built an army to fight against King Deriades of India, Oudaios was among the god’s forces. (Incidentally other writers, including Aristotle, trace the Jews to Indian philosophers, based on the apparent similarity between *Ioudaioi* and *`Indoi`*, “Indians.”)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The connection between the Jews and the Cretans is supposed to be that *Ioudaioi* comes from *`Idaioi`*, “Idaeans,” the inhabitants of Mt Ida on Crete Island, who had reared Zeus when the king of the gods was a baby. The link between the Jews and the Trojans comes from an ethnic group called the Solymoi (Latinised: *Solymi*, Anglicised: *Solymians*) which inhabited a region of Asia Minor in the vicinity of Troy and are supposed to have been descended from Solymos, a son of either Zeus or Ares. In this *aition*, Hierosolymos, a Greco-Roman version of the name Jerusalem, was built by the Solymoi. (In this instance Hierosolymos could then be translated as “Sacred Solymos” or &quot;Holy Solymian.”)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**CONCLUSION**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These are just a sampling of the numerous speculative fictions about Jewish origins in ancient Greco-Roman literature. The aforementioned Indians were supposed, according Nonnus’ *Dionysiaka*, to have been named after Indos [*`Indus`* in Latin], an earth-born “champion of warfare with towering limbs”. *Dionysiaka* 18 seems to be saying that Indos fought on Kronos’ side during the War of the Titans, ending up slain in combat by Zeus. In a footnote to their translation of this passage of Nonnus’ epic, W.H.D. Rouse, H.J. Rose &amp; L.R. Lind say the following [*with my emphases and additional notations*]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The giant Indos seems to have been invented for the occasion. Greeks,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; especially in later times, were very free with such stop-gap ancestors&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of peoples whose history they did not know, as Italos, king of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Italians, **Iudaios** [*sic*]&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; **and Hierosolymos, leaders of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jews**, and so forth.   &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Page 82 of Vol. 2&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;5. **`Iudaios`** seems to be the German spelling of **`Ioudaios`**, which [with the first “o” included] is a closer transliteration of the Greek Ἰουδαῖος.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;POSTSCRIPT&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even though W.H. Roscher serves as general editor of the *Ausführliches Lexikon der griechischen und römischen Mythologie*, somewhat ironically (or at least *I* think so), this *Lexikon*’s “Iudaios” article is actually written by someone else: Otto Höfer, one of Roscher’s fellow contributors. The article immediately preceding the “Iudaios” one, on the other hand, is entitled “Iudaea,” and, incidentally, is personally by Roscher himself. Here it is:&lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Iudaea article from Roscher Lexikon de Mythologie][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is my [novice's] translation thereto, with some explanatory notes added:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Iudaea/Judaea**, the personification of the Jewish land often&#xD;&#xA;&gt; appears on coins of Vespasianus either in front of a palm tree or in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; front of a tropaion [*victory monument*], or on a Lorica [*body&#xD;&#xA;&gt; armour*], or between arms, and weeping (*Cohen*, *Imperial Medals*&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; 1 p. 384 ff., No. 224 ff.).&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Similar representations can be found on the coins of Titus (*Cohen*,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ibid. p. 438 ff., No. 112ff.).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Vespasian denarius][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;`Iudæa Capta`, *“Captive Judaea,”* denarius *such as described by Roscher*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Vespasian[us] was the Roman Emperor who, through his son Titus (who later succeeded him on the throne), violently crushed the Jewish uprising centred at Jerusalem in the early 70s AD. By the end of the conflict the famous Jerusalem Temple and another Jewish temple in Egypt were completely destroyed, as Judaea Province was left devastated. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Vespasian Judaea Capta Sestertius][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Sestertius *of Vespasian with* `Iudæa Capta`&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The personification described here is similar to other countries and territories which were personified by the Romans, such as their provinces of Mauretania and Egypt on the southern shores of the Mediterranean Sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Gallia/Germania? at the Hadrianeum][4]][4]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Carole Raddato, in [“The Hadrianeum and the Personifications of Provinces” article](https://followinghadrian.com/2015/01/21/the-hadrianeum-and-the-personifications-of-provinces/) of her *Following Hadrian* blog, speculates that this woman is the province of either Gallia [Gaul, now France] or Germania [now Germany and several of its neighbouring countries], from the temple of the deified emperor Hadrian.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also [some debate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africa_(goddess)) about an apparent Roman goddess called Africa, which seems to have arisen from the time of the conqueror Pompey and his depictions of the southern Roman province of Africa as a woman. This, however, might be not much different from the aforementioned misunderstanding about Ioudaios (the “son of Typhon” in *Ethika*). The confusion here may be similar to saying that there was actually a Roman goddess called Iudæa (a claim which I'm surprised that that &quot;Cascade Assembly&quot; article hasn't yet leapt upon).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;6. *With thanks to Mario [another StackExchange user] for providing the link to it (in his own Answer to this Question).*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/eGDOp.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/tudCc.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/M5LrW.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/9WKJD.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11299" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2799" RevisionGUID="f24ae793-bd7e-42ab-9a5e-cecd335caee0" CreationDate="2017-08-03T16:22:28.617" UserId="3989" Text="The naming of the ship that famously sank on its maiden voyage in 1912, and that of the rocket that lofted the Gemini capsules into orbit, both reflect the common notion that the Titans were gigantic in stature in a way that the Olympian gods were not. Hesiod&amp;rsquo;s *Theogony* offers no support for this notion, nor do any classical-period temple carvings of the Titanomachy that I can recall. (Even the [metope][1] from the temple of Zeus at Olympia, representing the eleventh labor of Herakles, shows the hero, Athene, and Atlas all the same size.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This supposed gigantism of the Titans makes for some ludicrous imagery when we recollect that Zeus fathered offspring on several female Titans of both Titan generations, including Mnemosyne (the Muses), Leto (Apollo and Artemis), and Metis (Athene)&amp;mdash;unless we are to imagine one or both sexual partners as magically variable in size (as in the Norse case of the coupling of the Van Freyr with the Jotun Gerð, in the Skírnismál). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The OED glosses one only non-obsolete sense of the adjective *titanic* as &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Pertaining to, resembling, or characteristic of the Titans of mythology; gigantic, colossal; also, of the nature or character of the Titans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;mdash;though as it happens, not one of the illustrative quotations given below that gloss unambiguously supports the &amp;ldquo;gigantic, colossal&amp;rdquo; part.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Could this be just a result of confusing the Titanomachy with the Gigantomachy, which confusion is noted [here][2]?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://arthistoryresources.net/greek-art-archaeology-2016/greek-art-archaeology-images/zeusolympiametopeatlas.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2486/3989&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11300" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2799" RevisionGUID="f24ae793-bd7e-42ab-9a5e-cecd335caee0" CreationDate="2017-08-03T16:22:28.617" UserId="3989" Text="When and how did gigantic size become an attribute of the Titans?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11301" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2799" RevisionGUID="f24ae793-bd7e-42ab-9a5e-cecd335caee0" CreationDate="2017-08-03T16:22:28.617" UserId="3989" Text="|titans|giants|titanomachy|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11302" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2799" RevisionGUID="09c3835d-d4ca-4409-9401-102a49064ff3" CreationDate="2017-08-03T18:51:53.237" UserId="3989" Comment="Clarified on Skírnismál; added OCD graph following" Text="The naming of the ship that famously sank on its maiden voyage in 1912, and that of the rocket that lofted the Gemini capsules into orbit, both reflect the common notion that the Titans were gigantic in stature in a way that the Olympian gods were not. Hesiod&amp;rsquo;s *Theogony* offers no support for this notion, nor do any classical-period temple carvings of the Titanomachy that I can recall. (Even the [metope][1] from the temple of Zeus at Olympia, representing the eleventh labor of Herakles, shows the hero, Athene, and Atlas all the same size.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This supposed gigantism of the Titans makes for some ludicrous imagery when we recollect that Zeus fathered offspring on several female Titans of both Titan generations, including Mnemosyne (the Muses), Leto (Apollo and Artemis), and Metis (Athene)&amp;mdash;unless we are to imagine one or both sexual partners as magically variable in size. (Cf. the Norse case of the coupling of the Van Freyr with the Jotun Gerð, as anticipated in the Skírnismál.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;OCD s.v. *Titan* is no help here&amp;mdash;it merely devotes one last line to the stature issue, saying that the size implications of *titanic* derive from the &amp;ldquo;monstrous power and size&amp;rdquo; of the pre-Olympian pantheon, without citing any ancient warrant for that characterization.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The OED glosses one only non-obsolete sense of the adjective *titanic* as &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Pertaining to, resembling, or characteristic of the Titans of mythology; gigantic, colossal; also, of the nature or character of the Titans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;mdash;though as it happens, not one of the illustrative quotations given below that gloss unambiguously supports the &amp;ldquo;gigantic, colossal&amp;rdquo; part.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Could this be just a result of confusing the Titanomachy with the Gigantomachy, which confusion is addressed [here][2]?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://arthistoryresources.net/greek-art-archaeology-2016/greek-art-archaeology-images/zeusolympiametopeatlas.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2486/3989&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11303" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2800" RevisionGUID="13e8ba0a-cee0-46ce-b3b6-59b21f3a3e11" CreationDate="2017-08-04T01:19:10.677" UserId="4039" Text="Or were they seen more as folklore, like, for example, Holger Danske or St George and the Dragon?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11304" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2800" RevisionGUID="13e8ba0a-cee0-46ce-b3b6-59b21f3a3e11" CreationDate="2017-08-04T01:19:10.677" UserId="4039" Text="Did the vikings/medieval Scandinavians actually worship Odin, Thor, etc?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11305" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2800" RevisionGUID="13e8ba0a-cee0-46ce-b3b6-59b21f3a3e11" CreationDate="2017-08-04T01:19:10.677" UserId="4039" Text="|norse|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11306" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2797" RevisionGUID="c45a0ef6-98a4-4c5f-ab40-e339fc2a8eee" CreationDate="2017-08-04T20:13:34.030" UserId="2892" Comment="minor typo and correction of the spelling of Darnell" Text="The comment above stated already that  mixing Deities and attributes was not uncommon (astralistic bionic statues, appeal and invocation rites and ancient magic) and depending on the region and temple (**Noma**) and the period on age with which we concern ourselves it would be interesting to retrace and compare the attributes of **Ra** - commonly identified with the **Sun disk** - and **Horus**  - the **Falcon-Headed Cosmic God of the Ennead**, **son of Isis** identified as one with **Sothis: Sirius** - in different dynasties. We might explore many occult meanings, but let's keep to the narration pursued in this academic text, to keep it succinct: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Although the left eye of the supreme cosmic deity is the lunar eye of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Horus, and his right eye the solar eye of Re, there are numerous&#xD;&#xA;&gt; associations of the two eyes. In the Coffin Texts Hathor even states&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that she &quot;is that eye of Horus&quot;. The two eyes are both protectors of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their cosmic lord, and in this capacity they combine in a class of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; amulets taking the form of the Udjat-eye, with the figure of a goddess&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on one side. An understanding of these amulets clarifies several&#xD;&#xA;&gt; obscure text passages referring to the apotropaic eye; the amulets also appear to relate to the heliacal rising of Sothis (Sirius Star) and the celebration of the coming of the new year&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Darnell, J. C. (1997). The Apotropaic Goddess in the Eye Goddess in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eye. Studien Zur Altägyptischen Kultur, 24, 35–48.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The possible **relation** between **Ra** and **Horus** is represented here, not inflating or deflating any analogies in metaphysics or mystery schools: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Although the left eye of the supreme cosmic deity is the lunar eye of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Horus, and his right eye the solar eye of Re, there are numerous&#xD;&#xA;&gt; associations of the two eyes. In the Coffin Texts Hathor even states&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that she &quot;is that eye of Horus&quot;. The two eyes are both protectors of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their cosmic lord, and in this capacity they combine in a class of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; amulets taking the form of the Udjat-eye, with the figure of a goddess&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on one side. An understanding of these amulets clarifies several&#xD;&#xA;&gt; obscure text passages referring to the apotropaic eye; the amulets&#xD;&#xA;&gt; also appear to relate to the heliacal rising of Sothis and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; celebration of the coming of the new year.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The religious importance of the eyes of the supreme cosmic deity for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the ancient Egyptians is well known, and certain convolutions and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; interchanges between the two eyes and various cosmological&#xD;&#xA;&gt; interpretations are well attested and acknowledged, though perhaps&#xD;&#xA;&gt; less well understood.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; For the ancient Egyptians the sun and the moon could represent the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; right and left eyes respectively of the supreme deity. The lunar left&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eye can appear as the eye of Horus, the solar right eye as the eye of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Re. Both the solar eye and the eye of Horus can be the avenging eye&#xD;&#xA;&gt; who shoots arrows of fire into the enemies of the solar deity; the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; solar eye is also a goddess, the wandering daughter of the sun, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the womb of the solar mother from which the morning Sun is born. which&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the morning sun is born. In the nature of the raging, angry goddess of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the solar eye the Horus eye and wandering daughter merge. There are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; many associations and interchanges of the eye of Horus and the goddess&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the eye of the sun in Egyptian texts and representations, some more&#xD;&#xA;&gt; explicit than others. A goddess associated with the fiery power of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sun may protect the eye of Horus&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; Darnell, J. C. (1997). The Apotropaic Goddess in the Eye Goddess in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; Eye. Studien Zur Altägyptischen Kultur, 24, 35–48." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11307" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2801" RevisionGUID="78362385-d966-4e50-92a7-5ac068d55dca" CreationDate="2017-08-04T20:45:21.490" UserId="2892" Text="It seems that Blake's definition of oxen is likely the direct source of Hardy's choice, although I am still quite interested in oxen in prior mythological canons.  (Hardy lived in an era when many ideas from Asian cultures were making their way to England.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From *[A Blake Dictionary: The Ideas and Symbols of William Blake][1]* by [Samuel Foster Damon][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Ox is a castrated bull, who drags the plow, and is slaughtered for meat.  He is docile and patient, although there are &quot;moping terrors&quot; in his brain. &quot;He who the Ox to wrath has mov'd / Shall never be by Woman lov'd&quot;; it would require an excess of cruelty to rouse the wrath of such a gentle creature or his human equivalent.  &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Google Books][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Based on [Hardy's political and social views][4], the ox is a much better representation of the common man in an industrial society, as a docile beast of burden whose ultimate fate is as &quot;meat for the machine&quot; in that they are also potentially subject to &quot;slaughter&quot;.  *(See Orwell's [Animal Farm][5] and Shaw's [Mrs. Warren's Profession][6], which has implications beyond feminism, for similar explication of economic systems as means of controlling human bodies.)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The idea that that it requires an &quot;excess of cruelty&quot; to rouse the beast to wrath may be taken as a comment on labor conditions leading to strikes and massacres of workers in Industrial societies up through the early 20th century, although more directly supportable [is the association of this poem with the first World War, during which it was published][7]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books/about/A_Blake_Dictionary.html?id=HOxpOMQ_Pa8C&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S._Foster_Damon&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://books.google.com/books?id=HOxpOMQ_Pa8C&amp;pg=PA242&amp;lpg=PA242&amp;dq=Ox?&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=UJxEyxAPcD&amp;sig=YTw_tM2gKdNCI4qw3ns2M-EzpFQ&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwi5mYrlnrTVAhVEbj4KHWo1AhIQ6AEISzAG#v=snippet&amp;q=Ox&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://blogs.exeter.ac.uk/exeterblog/blog/2015/05/07/the-politics-of-thomas-hardy/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Farm&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mrs._Warren%27s_Profession&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://interestingliterature.com/2016/12/16/a-short-analysis-of-thomas-hardys-the-oxen/&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matewan" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11308" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2802" RevisionGUID="d26ed2f2-1043-4678-972c-c88928483d75" CreationDate="2017-08-04T21:45:11.700" UserId="292" Text="Yes, they did. The god Freyr was popular in Sweden, and had a [huge temple][1] at Uppsala. According to [Adam of Bremen][2], a Christian historian, the temple also had images of Thor and Odin, flanking a central image of Freyr. (He was considered an ancestor of the royal family, making him the main god.)  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;The temple, which Adam describes as something like Roman ones, was probably uncommon, but sacred fields and groves were set aside for various deities, and sometimes the name of the place reflects this, i.e. Odinsve, which [might have been][3] a shrine or simply a space dedicated to Odin.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;All this makes it sound as if Thor had no cult, but [his hammer][4] was a symbol of blessing, and the sagas record the Icelandic settlers' devotion to the thunder-god.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;Further, Snorri Sturluson's *[Heimskringla][5]* describes the gods as mortals, but still tells how people made offerings to them after they &quot;died&quot;, his way of rationalizing the sacrifices that people had offered to them before Christianity took over.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.germanicmythology.com/works/uppsalatemple.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.britannica.com/biography/Adam-of-Bremen&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A9_(shrine)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/the-aesir-gods-and-goddesses/thor/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://books.google.ca/books?id=dFZ8CgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT22&amp;lpg=PT22&amp;dq=Heimskringla%20Njord&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=q0V1z4eZ_i&amp;sig=jJGqaQ5jA7twU-OSZnoltv3vfAE&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiPiKmExL7VAhUEKiYKHbVpAlcQ6AEISDAF#v=onepage&amp;q=Heimskringla%20Njord&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11309" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2803" RevisionGUID="7471c6ee-f1a1-43d7-9287-144c231e0d55" CreationDate="2017-08-04T21:52:06.187" UserId="292" Text="The Titanes and the Gigantes seem to have become one in people's minds over time, perhaps because both of them fought the Olympians.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;While 6th century BCE writers like Homer and Hesiod don't mention unusual size as an aspect of the Titans, other children of Uranus and Gaia were of giant size, so you can see how the confusion began. Go to [Theoi.com][1] to see how the Roman writers consistently describe the Titans as giants.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Titanes.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11310" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2801" RevisionGUID="28db67de-526b-4dce-8166-784d8cf91035" CreationDate="2017-08-04T22:04:27.233" UserId="2892" Comment="added 139 characters in body" Text="It seems that Blake's definition of oxen is likely the direct source of Hardy's choice, although I am still quite interested in oxen in prior mythological canons.  (Hardy lived in an era when many ideas from Asian cultures were making their way to England.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From *[A Blake Dictionary: The Ideas and Symbols of William Blake][1]* by [Samuel Foster Damon][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Ox is a castrated bull, who drags the plow, and is slaughtered for meat.  He is docile and patient, although there are &quot;moping terrors&quot; in his brain. &quot;He who the Ox to wrath has mov'd / Shall never be by Woman lov'd&quot;; it would require an excess of cruelty to rouse the wrath of such a gentle creature or his human equivalent.  &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Google Books, ibid. p.313][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Based on [Hardy's political and social views][4], the ox is a much better representation of the common man in an industrial society, as a docile beast of burden whose ultimate fate is as &quot;meat for the machine&quot;. Although commoners may not have owned land in pre-Industrial societies, farming, even nominally, for oneself is quite different from factory work. *(See Orwell's [Animal Farm][5] and Shaw's [Mrs. Warren's Profession][6], which has implications beyond feminism, for similar explication of economic systems as means of controlling human bodies.)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The idea that it requires an &quot;excess of cruelty&quot; to rouse the beast to wrath may be taken as a comment on labor conditions leading to strikes and massacres of workers in Industrial societies up through the early 20th century.  This may not be implicit in the poem, but is supportable. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More implicit [is the association of this poem with the first World War, during which it was published][7]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books/about/A_Blake_Dictionary.html?id=HOxpOMQ_Pa8C&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S._Foster_Damon&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://books.google.com/books?id=HOxpOMQ_Pa8C&amp;pg=PA242&amp;lpg=PA242&amp;dq=Ox?&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=UJxEyxAPcD&amp;sig=YTw_tM2gKdNCI4qw3ns2M-EzpFQ&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwi5mYrlnrTVAhVEbj4KHWo1AhIQ6AEISzAG#v=snippet&amp;q=Ox&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://blogs.exeter.ac.uk/exeterblog/blog/2015/05/07/the-politics-of-thomas-hardy/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Farm&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mrs._Warren%27s_Profession&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://interestingliterature.com/2016/12/16/a-short-analysis-of-thomas-hardys-the-oxen/&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matewan" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11311" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2804" RevisionGUID="3ea7c919-a965-4314-b54d-eed93a98f701" CreationDate="2017-08-05T21:34:37.760" UserId="2892" Text="As you note, Dionysus was associated with the Bull:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Appear as a bull or many-headed serpent or raging lion to see. [1020] Go, Bacchus, with smiling face throw a deadly noose around the hunter of the Bacchae as he falls beneath the flock of Maenads.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Euripides, *Bacchae* 1017][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The associations with wild beasts, and his ability to transform, was in fact, a symbol and source of Dionysus' power.  Walter Otto has a good deal to say on this subject in his book [*Dionysus: Myth and Cult*][2].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But this power could not save him from the wrath of Hera:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But he did not hold the throne of Zeus for long. By the fierce resentment of implacable Hera, the Titans cunningly smeared their round faces with disguising chalk, and while he contemplated his changeling countenance reflected in a mirror they destroyed him with an infernal knife.15 There where his limbs had been cut piecemeal by the Titan steel, the end of his life was the beginning of a new life as Dionysos.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Nonnus, Dionysiaca 6.169][3] | [Greek Text][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nonnus is using the [Zagreus][5] aspect of Dionysus, and Zagreus was still a child when he was dismembered and consumed by the Titans.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The depiction as a calf is a reference to his child status at the time of the sparagmos &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0092%3Acard%3D1017&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.com/books?id=XCDvuoZ8IzsC&amp;q=transformation#v=snippet&amp;q=transformation&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/NonnusDionysiaca6.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0485%3Abook%3D6&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreus#The_sparagmos" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11312" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2804" RevisionGUID="38dfcca9-e969-4781-90b5-ca4394a913a4" CreationDate="2017-08-05T22:56:20.327" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body" Text="As you note, Dionysus was associated with the Bull:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Appear as a bull or many-headed serpent or raging lion to see. Go, Bacchus, with smiling face and throw a deadly noose around the hunter of the Bacchae as he falls beneath the flock of Maenads.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Euripides, *Bacchae* 1017][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The associations with wild beasts, and his ability to transform, was in fact, a symbol and source of Dionysus' power.  Walter Otto has a good deal to say on this subject in his book [*Dionysus: Myth and Cult*][2].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But this power could not save him from the wrath of Hera:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But he did not hold the throne of Zeus for long. By the fierce resentment of implacable Hera, the Titans cunningly smeared their round faces with disguising chalk, and while he contemplated his changeling countenance reflected in a mirror they destroyed him with an infernal knife. There where his limbs had been cut piecemeal by the Titan steel, the end of his life was the beginning of a new life as Dionysos.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Nonnus, Dionysiaca 6.169][3] | [Greek Text][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This source seems to indicate that the child was amusing himself with transformations when he was set upon.  *(Possibly the veal was the tastiest looking animal;)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nonnus is using the [Zagreus][5] aspect of Dionysus, and Zagreus was still a child when he was dismembered and consumed by the Titans.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The depiction as a calf is a reference to his child status at the time of the sparagmos &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0092%3Acard%3D1017&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.com/books?id=XCDvuoZ8IzsC&amp;q=transformation#v=snippet&amp;q=transformation&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/NonnusDionysiaca6.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0485%3Abook%3D6&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreus#The_sparagmos" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11313" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2803" RevisionGUID="46e3f754-7f71-4ba5-8a9b-41118dda9a48" CreationDate="2017-08-06T00:18:39.960" UserId="292" Comment="deleted 24 characters in body" Text="The Titanes and the Gigantes seem to have become one in people's minds over time, perhaps because both of them fought the Olympians.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;While 6th century BCE writers like Homer and Hesiod don't mention unusual size as an aspect of the Titans, other children of Uranus and Gaia were of giant size, so you can see how the confusion began. Theoi.com][1] has several examples of this in their page on the Titans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Titanes.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11314" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2805" RevisionGUID="dbfbf90e-f011-4db9-88fc-0f427117918c" CreationDate="2017-08-06T05:10:37.783" UserId="4047" Text="I've always been interested in Greek mythology, but in my country we don't have the kind of standalone college courses you find in the US, and I've never been able to find resources that seemed properly comprehensive. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't want to just read stories here and there, like Grimm fairy tales, but get a proper overview of the landscape of Greek mythology, how the stories go together, and so on. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can anyone point me to a good source, or reading list, on the topic?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11315" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2805" RevisionGUID="dbfbf90e-f011-4db9-88fc-0f427117918c" CreationDate="2017-08-06T05:10:37.783" UserId="4047" Text="Is there an authoritative compendium of Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11316" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2805" RevisionGUID="dbfbf90e-f011-4db9-88fc-0f427117918c" CreationDate="2017-08-06T05:10:37.783" UserId="4047" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11317" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2806" RevisionGUID="a62fccb9-15f8-4840-adac-8b9d2df356b2" CreationDate="2017-08-06T05:17:58.567" UserId="2892" Text="Part of the confusion may derive from the &quot;[fuzziness][1]&quot; subject. Time is not strictly rational in the Greek myths, so why should proportion be firmly fixed? More confusion may be injected in regarding all, as opposed to merely some, of the Titans, being huge. Finally, there is the question of who is and who is not a Titan, and according to whom? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Perspective**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When regarding the size Greek gods, stature influences conception.  Zeus is towering per his power, but we regard him as dwarfed by the chthonic giants.  Representationally, in the case of the metope, Atlas is of *lesser* stature than either Athena or Heracles, and representing him as larger would give the wrong impression.  Remember that the idea of perspective in art is just starting to develop, and in the dominant tradition, commonly seen in Egypt, relative size of a subject is a function of importance.  Note the normal size of [the Erymanthian Boar in a reconstruction of another metope][2] from the Temple of Zeus, and [this vase depicting the same image][3]. Yet the boar was said to be monstrous in stature, [as depicted on this vase][4]. I don't think it's coincidental that the boar is larger when a living threat than it is once vanquished.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Titans are not all the same size**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Atlas is assuredly gigantic:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;...crafty Atlas, who knows the full depths of the sea, and holds, himself, the towering pillars which hold apart the earth and sky.&quot; &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Homer, *Odyssey* 1.52-54][5] | [English][6]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unless we conceive of Atlas through the lens of Sun Wu Kong, who flits to the depths of the four seas on a whim, the implication is that Atlas knows the full depths of the seas because his feet rest on the bottom.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Atlas through hard constraint upholds the wide heaven with unwearying head and arms, standing at the borders of the earth&quot; &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hesiod, *Theogony* 517-517][7]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When we combine these two early descriptions, it's easy to see why Atlas is regarded as mountainous.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The association with pillars is further reinforced in the architectural [*atlantes*][8]. The lexical entry from the Liddell/Scott reads:  Ἄτλαντες, in Architecture, colossal statues as supports for the entablature.&quot;  This is, in part, a commemoration of Atlas as benefactor, turned to stone to keep the sky from crashing down to earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But it's hard to regard such Titans as [Leto][9] or [Themis][10] as gigantic. (Themis brings up another good point in that she is tricked into making herself tiny so that Zeus, himself a master shapeshifter, can swallow her.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Epimetheus][11], generally regarded as the husband of Pandora, must have been man-sized or there would have been problems in the marital bed. *(The presumed difference in the size of Loki and [Angrboða][12], by contrast, would seem not to present such difficulties, and calls to mind a certain [Almodóvar film][13];)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Who is and who is not a Titan, and according to whom?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We're talking about a canon that forms over a millennium in textual form.  Later mythographers begin to conflate the Titanomachy and Gigantomachy, and giants with Titans, and the only thing constant is the state of flux.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Creating confusion is the existence of a Titan [Pallas][14] and a Giant [Pallas][15], but these may be conflated as the former comes from Hesiod, and the latter from Apollodorus, many centuries later, which conflicts with Euripides' account of who was flayed by Athena during the battle. It's not that one author is right and the other wrong so much as each storyteller has their own take. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's the question of [Typhon][16]. Not officially a Titan, but as the progeny of Gaia and Tartarus (compare to Gaia and Ouranos), Typhon is certainly a similar category of being, with [a similar cycle][17], and [&quot;in size and strength he surpassed all the offspring of Earth.&quot;][18] From a modern perspective, influenced by the [Harryhausen][19] classic &quot;[Clash of the Titans][20]&quot;, it's not difficult to see how a being like Typhon, or, in this case, [the Kraken][21], might come to be *thought of* as a Titan. This may shed some light on both the confusion arising from ancient sources, and the exacerbation of that confusion in the present era per often poorly sourced or misleading information, and suboptimal translations.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;__________________________________________________&#xD;&#xA;*Hopefully this provides some answers on the question of Atlas in particular, and the Titans in general.  Although **I heartily agree that not all Titans would have been gigantic**, though Atlas certainly was, and the association of great size most likely relates partly to him in his role as reluctant but important benefactor, and to Titans like [Oceanus][22] and [Tethys][23], who, by their very nature, are presumed to be titanic indeed.*  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_logic&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/image?img=Perseus:image:1990.33.0539.lg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Herakles/Hpix/1991.01.1003.jpeg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Herakles/Hpix/1990.05.0435.jpeg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0135%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D44&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D44&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D507&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_(architecture)&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leto&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metis_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epimetheus_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angrbo%C3%B0a&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/reviews/talk-to-her-20021105&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pallas_(Titan)&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pallas_(Giant)&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhon&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D853&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D6%3Asection%3D3&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Harryhausen&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_the_Titans_(1981_film)&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: http://clash-of-the-titans.wikia.com/wiki/Greek_Mythology#Kraken&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceanus&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tethys_(mythology)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11318" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2480" RevisionGUID="205b536b-11e2-4170-99a1-0f402dc30855" CreationDate="2017-08-06T08:16:43.277" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|titans|immortality|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11319" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2483" RevisionGUID="470e178c-fe6b-48a9-89eb-f4ba3d454bdd" CreationDate="2017-08-06T08:17:14.557" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|titans|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11320" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2799" RevisionGUID="9b807120-258d-4150-b861-c6ccb6f45a65" CreationDate="2017-08-06T08:17:42.937" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="edited tags" Text="|titans|giants|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11321" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2803" RevisionGUID="17106b94-2593-4a4b-8d56-ef55f07576f8" CreationDate="2017-08-07T19:29:43.110" UserId="2892" Comment="Corrected the link, which was inadvertently broken." Text="The Titanes and the Gigantes seem to have become one in people's minds over time, perhaps because both of them fought the Olympians.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;While 6th century BCE writers like Homer and Hesiod don't mention unusual size as an aspect of the Titans, other children of Uranus and Gaia were of giant size, so you can see how the confusion began. [The Titan page on Theoi.com][1] has several examples of this in their page on the Titans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Titanes.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11322" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2806" RevisionGUID="d0ce8b8c-9875-4336-ae66-c48d1f9834bc" CreationDate="2017-08-07T19:39:17.460" UserId="2892" Comment="Broke up some sentences, and added a few clarifications." Text="Part of the confusion may derive from the &quot;[fuzziness][1]&quot; subject. Time is not strictly rational in the Greek myths, so why should proportion be firmly fixed? More confusion may be injected in regarding all, as opposed to merely some, of the Titans, being huge. Finally, there is the question of who is and who is not a Titan, and according to whom? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Perspective**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When regarding the size Greek gods, stature influences conception.  Zeus is towering per his power, but we regard him as dwarfed by the chthonic giants.  Representationally, in the case of the metope, Atlas is of *lesser* stature than either Athena or Heracles, and representing him as larger would give the wrong impression.  Remember that the idea of perspective in art is just starting to develop, and in the dominant tradition, commonly seen in Egypt, relative size of a subject is a function of importance.  Note the normal size of [the Erymanthian Boar in a reconstruction of another metope][2] from the Temple of Zeus, and [this vase depicting the same image][3]. Yet the boar was said to be monstrous in stature, [as depicted on this vase][4]. I don't think it's coincidental that the boar is larger when a living threat than it is once vanquished.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Titans are not all the same size**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Atlas is assuredly gigantic:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;...crafty Atlas, who knows the full depths of the sea, and holds, himself, the towering pillars which hold apart the earth and sky.&quot; &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Homer, *Odyssey* 1.52-54][5] | [English][6]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unless we conceive of Atlas through the lens of Sun Wu Kong, who flits to the depths of the four seas on a whim, the implication is that Atlas knows the full depths of the seas because his feet rest on the bottom.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Atlas through hard constraint upholds the wide heaven with unwearying head and arms, standing at the borders of the earth&quot; &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hesiod, *Theogony* 517-517][7]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When we combine these two early descriptions, it's easy to see why Atlas is regarded as mountainous.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The association with pillars is further reinforced in the architectural [*atlantes*][8]. The lexical entry from the Liddell/Scott reads:  Ἄτλαντες, in Architecture, colossal statues as supports for the entablature.&quot;  This is, in part, a commemoration of Atlas as benefactor, turned to stone to keep the sky from crashing down to earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But it's hard to regard such Titans as [Leto][9] or [Themis][10] as gigantic. (Themis highlights another issue in that she is tricked into making herself tiny so that Zeus, himself a master shapeshifter, can swallow her.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Epimetheus][11], generally regarded as the husband of Pandora, must have been man-sized or there would have been problems in the marital bed. *(The presumed difference in the size of Loki and [Angrboða][12], by contrast, would seem not to present such difficulties, and calls to mind a certain [Almodóvar film][13];)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Who is and who is not a Titan, and according to whom?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We're talking about a canon that forms over a millennium in textual form.  Later mythographers begin to conflate the Titanomachy and Gigantomachy, and giants with Titans, and the only thing constant is the state of flux.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Creating confusion is the existence of a Titan [Pallas][14] and a Giant [Pallas][15]. These may be conflated as the former comes from Hesiod, and the latter from Apollodorus, many centuries later.  The Apollodorus further conflicts with Euripides' account of who was flayed by Athena during the battle. It's not that one author is right and the other wrong so much as each storyteller has their own take. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's the question of [Typhon][16]. Not officially a Titan, but as the progeny of Gaia and Tartarus (compare to Gaia and Ouranos), Typhon is certainly a similar category of being, with [a similar cycle][17] of striving against the Olympians abd being cast down. [&quot;In size and strength [Typhon] surpassed all the offspring of Earth.&quot;][18] From a modern perspective, influenced by the [Harryhausen][19] classic &quot;[Clash of the Titans][20]&quot;, it's not difficult to see how a being like Typhon, or, in this case, [the Kraken][21], might come to be *thought of* as a Titan. This may shed some light on both the confusion arising from ancient sources, and the exacerbation of that confusion in the present era per often poorly sourced or misleading information, and suboptimal translations.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**In the early accounts, what seems to distinguish Titans is not their size but their early genesis and primal nature.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;__________________________________________________&#xD;&#xA;*Hopefully this provides some answers on the question of Atlas in particular, and the Titans in general.  Although **I heartily agree that not all Titans would have been gigantic**, the the association of great size most likely relates partly to Atlas in his role as reluctant, but important, benefactor to mankind, and to Titans like [Oceanus][22] and [Tethys][23], who, by their very nature, are titanic indeed. The same may be said for Titans like [Eos][24]--no one who has witnessed the dawn breaking could conceive of Eos an anything less sky-spanning.*  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_logic&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/image?img=Perseus:image:1990.33.0539.lg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Herakles/Hpix/1991.01.1003.jpeg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Herakles/Hpix/1990.05.0435.jpeg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0135%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D44&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D44&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D507&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_(architecture)&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leto&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metis_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epimetheus_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angrbo%C3%B0a&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/reviews/talk-to-her-20021105&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pallas_(Titan)&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pallas_(Giant)&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhon&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D853&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D6%3Asection%3D3&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Harryhausen&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_the_Titans_(1981_film)&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: http://clash-of-the-titans.wikia.com/wiki/Greek_Mythology#Kraken&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceanus&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tethys_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eos" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11323" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2807" RevisionGUID="d4c0f10b-e9be-4ae5-9379-27bdcfa1183a" CreationDate="2017-08-07T22:24:55.250" UserId="2892" Text="The [Oxford Classical Dictionary][1] is often referenced, and although not restricted to mythology, it contains much useful information on Classical civilization which provides critical context in understanding the mythology of the various periods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a compendium reflecting the breadth and tradition of Greek Mythology itself, I still like [The Greek Myths][2], in that it is quite comprehensive and merges multiple, conflicting accounts of myths into a single narrative. It includes citations to the source material, and has a robust index that can be used to track the appearance of different characters from mythology across the canon.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Edith Hamilton's Mythology][3] is another good compendium. Although not restricted to Greek mythology, and significantly less comprehensive than Graves, it is also less controversial, and Hamilton was a very fine scholar and translator, and has been widely utilized in education.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;________________________________________________&#xD;&#xA;*Graves' *commentary* on the myths is not in favor, seen as overly speculative, a fair critique, but it is part of a modern tradition of interpretation deriving from [Frazer][4], and which has significantly influenced the thinking of artists in the 20th century and beyond. *(Nevertheless, I expect to get some down-votes for merely for mentioning this useful text;)* Graves' most famous book, *I, Claudius*, is widely regarded as one of the best novels of the 20th century, which places Graves in the tradition of authors like [Apollodorus][5] and [Ovid][5], who themselves created compendiums of the myths in there eras.  I highly recommend both of those authors!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/acref/9780199545568.001.0001/acref-9780199545568&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Greek_Myths&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythology_(book)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_George_Frazer&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphoses" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11324" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2804" RevisionGUID="f1995f9e-7d3d-4433-93ce-e58037dc9738" CreationDate="2017-08-08T00:26:20.567" UserId="2892" Comment="added a note on the choice of a bovine for the sacrifice--imo bulls were the most prized" Text="As you note, Dionysus was associated with the Bull:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Appear as a bull or many-headed serpent or raging lion to see. Go, Bacchus, with smiling face and throw a deadly noose around the hunter of the Bacchae as he falls beneath the flock of Maenads.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Euripides, *Bacchae* 1017][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The associations with wild beasts, and his ability to transform, was in fact, a symbol and source of Dionysus' power.  Walter Otto has a good deal to say on this subject in his book [*Dionysus: Myth and Cult*][2].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But this power could not save him from the wrath of Hera:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But he did not hold the throne of Zeus for long. By the fierce resentment of implacable Hera, the Titans cunningly smeared their round faces with disguising chalk, and while he contemplated his changeling countenance reflected in a mirror they destroyed him with an infernal knife. There where his limbs had been cut piecemeal by the Titan steel, the end of his life was the beginning of a new life as Dionysos.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Nonnus, Dionysiaca 6.169][3] | [Greek Text][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This source seems to indicate that the child was amusing himself with transformations when he was set upon.  *(Possibly the veal was the tastiest looking animal;)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On a more serious note, I suspect the choice of a calf relates to the many [hecatombs][5] of bulls sacrificed to the gods. In general, cattle seem to be the most prized sacrificial animal, and bovines figure prominently in many areas of Greek mythology.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nonnus is using the [Zagreus][6] aspect of Dionysus, and Zagreus was still a child when he was dismembered and consumed by the Titans.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The depiction as a calf is a reference to his child status at the time of the sparagmos &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0092%3Acard%3D1017&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.com/books?id=XCDvuoZ8IzsC&amp;q=transformation#v=snippet&amp;q=transformation&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/NonnusDionysiaca6.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0485%3Abook%3D6&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecatomb&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreus#The_sparagmos" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11325" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2808" RevisionGUID="b5092594-aef3-46ea-9c03-3a8e958d5d7e" CreationDate="2017-08-08T00:42:10.397" UserDisplayName="user1079" Text="#Did Ragnarök myths influence the Revelation?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nearly all of the imagery in the Revelation (singular; not Revelation*s*) is borrowed from the Hebrew bible (i.e. the Old Testament). Of the remainder, most of it can be found in other first century Jewish and Christian literature, or in first century Greco-Roman myths and politics.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To break down specific points raised in the original question:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a concept [of 'Ragnarok', i.e. an eschaton] is not found in the Old Testament and is not associated with Jewish mythology and thought&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eschatological expectations of an idealized future, often after a period of conflict, are found in some of the later prophets of the Hebrew bible (e.g. Trito-Isaiah, Trito-Zechariah, Joel).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;John's Revelation is a textbook example of a Jewish apocalypse. Early elements of the genre can be found in pre-exilic and exilic Hebrew prophetic literature. The genre really took off in the late Persian or early Greek era. The defining purpose of the apocalyptic genre is to reveal something hidden about the world, especially as related to the unseen spiritual realm and the future ('apocalypse' means 'revelation' or 'a revealing'). Elaborate symbolism is a usual feature in these apocalypses, such as Daniel, Enoch's Book of Parables, or Fourth Ezra.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The same period when apocalypticism was growing within Judaism, factions emerged in Judean politics. By the first century AD, the three most well-known factions were the Pharisees, Essenes, and Sadducees. Even at the time (e.g. by Josephus) they were defined by their eschatological views, showing just how important 'the eschaton' was in Israelite society. Similarities are drawn between the early Christians and both the Pharisees and the Essenes. To put it simply, eschatological beliefs *were* a major part of 'Jewish mythology and thought', and have a complex history going back centuries prior to the Revelation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Similarities with Revelations/Ragnarok may be said to include the Sun being swallowed up,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The failing of the sun, moon, and stars is a common picture in ancient Israelite and Judean prophetic texts (e.g. Amos 5.18-20; Isa 13.10,13; Ezek 32.7-8; Joel 2.10). In the older examples, it is plainly idiomatic, denoting social upheaval, i.e. the disruption or overthrow of a nation. Later examples employ it in a more traditionally climactic sense, i.e. history-ending.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a great serpent rising from the sea,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This seems to be combining two different images in the Revelation, first the dragon which is thrown out of heaven (Rev 12.3-9) and is imprisoned in the abyss (20.1-3), and second the crimson beast which emerges from the sea (13.1) or abyss (11.7; 17.8).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Revelation's dragon or sea-monster comes from the Combat Myth, an archetypal myth seen in many Indo-European cultures. In the ancient Near East this myth predates the Revelation by centuries, and can be seen across the Hebrew bible (e.g. Isa 27.1; 51.9; Psa 74.12-14; Job 26.12-13).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Revelation's beast is an amalgam of Daniel 7.1-14's four beasts, each of which emerges from the sea. The Daniel 7 passage is vaguely reminiscent of the Combat Myth, but its specific verbage — one riding on the clouds, receiving an eternal kingdom — draws attention to a particular Ugaritic form of the Combat Myth in which Baal conquers the sea god Yam and receives an eternal kingdom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the dead rising,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The resurrection of the dead can be found in at least three texts of the Hebrew bible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The latest is the Book of Daniel, published circa 167-165 BC. It is almost certainly the final of the canonical prophets, and envisions 'the time of the end' as a period of crisis (the Maccabean Revolt) followed by the downfall of Israel's oppressor (Antiochus Epiphanes). Daniel 12 relays that those who died in the crisis will be raised to life for either reward or punishment.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Prior to this, the image of the dead being restored to life is found in Ezek 37.1-14, written circa 585 BC. Here the scene is widely agreed to be a metaphor for the restoration of the Judean nation after the Babylonian exile.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The third text is Isaiah 24-27. Dating for this text is disputed, ranging from the eighth century BC to the fifth or fourth century BC. There is also debate whether the image of the dead rising is meant to be a metaphor, as in Ezekiel, or literal, as in Daniel. It has been suggested the dead rising in Isaiah 24-27 has parallels in Ugaritic mythology (cf. Cho, Fu, 'Death and Feasting in the Isaiah Apocalypse (Isaiah 25.6-8)', *Formation and Intertextuality in Isaiah 24-27* (ed. Hibbard, Kim).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Revelation draws on all three examples. The Revelation's structure is designed to follow both Daniel, so that the resurrection is seen near the end of the book. Rev 20.4 καὶ ἔζησαν (they lived) is identical to LXX Ezek 37.10. And Rev 7.17 and 21.4 each verbally echo Isa 25.8.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fire raining down upon the world,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Fire as a form of divine judgment is replete across the Hebrew bible, and features heavily in apocalyptic literature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and a horn sounding to signal the onset of the end.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Hebrew bible, trumpets are used in Israelite religious festivals, worship practices, and war. Of special interest here, the sounding of a trumpet is associated with eschatological expectations in Zechariah 9.14 (written in the sixth century BC) and Joel 2.1 (date disputed; third century BC at the latest).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#Conclusion&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did the Ragnarök mythos influence the Revelation?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Almost certainly not.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The earliest evidence of the Ragnarök mythos, such as Thorwald's Cross or the Gosforth Cross, seems to be found no earlier than the tenth century AD. As the name of these objects indicates, however, these come from an age long after Christianity had swept across Europe. So though the Ragnarök mythos probably goes a ways earlier than the tenth century AD, we can't say for certain *when* it originated.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In contrast, A substantial chunk of the Revelation's imagery predate the book by centuries. The Revelation was written circa AD 90-95, and comes from a long-standing tradition of apocalyptic expectations within Judaism. Other than the specific Christian ideas present in the text and allusions to contemporary Greco-Roman symbolism (e.g. 'Babylon the great city' sitting on 'seven hills' corresponding to Rome 'the city of the seven hills'), most of the Revelation's imagery comes from Hebrew scriptures that are centuries old, which themselves contain pictures and ideas centuries older than that." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11326" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2806" RevisionGUID="c4a2084a-e016-47df-87c8-0ab48e5a9a77" CreationDate="2017-08-08T00:47:54.290" UserId="2892" Comment="Added a note on Gaia and Ouranos that may help the questioner contextualize the conception of the Titans beyond the anthropomorphized depictions." Text="Part of the confusion may derive from the &quot;[fuzziness][1]&quot; subject. Time is not strictly rational in the Greek myths, so why should proportion be firmly fixed? More confusion may be injected in regarding all, as opposed to merely some, of the Titans, being huge. Finally, there is the question of who is and who is not a Titan, and according to whom? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Perspective**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When regarding the size Greek gods, stature influences conception.  Zeus is towering per his power, but we regard him as dwarfed by the chthonic giants.  Representationally, in the case of the metope, Atlas is of *lesser* stature than either Athena or Heracles, and representing him as larger would give the wrong impression.  Remember that the idea of perspective in art is just starting to develop, and in the dominant tradition, commonly seen in Egypt, relative size of a subject is a function of importance.  Note the normal size of [the Erymanthian Boar in a reconstruction of another metope][2] from the Temple of Zeus, and [this vase depicting the same image][3]. Yet the boar was said to be monstrous in stature, [as depicted on this vase][4]. I don't think it's coincidental that the boar is larger when a living threat than it is once vanquished.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Titans are not all the same size**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Atlas is assuredly gigantic:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;...crafty Atlas, who knows the full depths of the sea, and holds, himself, the towering pillars which hold apart the earth and sky.&quot; &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Homer, *Odyssey* 1.52-54][5] | [English][6]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unless we conceive of Atlas through the lens of Sun Wu Kong, who flits to the depths of the four seas on a whim, the implication is that Atlas knows the full depths of the seas because his feet rest on the bottom.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Atlas through hard constraint upholds the wide heaven with unwearying head and arms, standing at the borders of the earth&quot; &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hesiod, *Theogony* 517-517][7]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When we combine these two early descriptions, it's easy to see why Atlas is regarded as mountainous.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The association with pillars is further reinforced in the architectural [*atlantes*][8]. The lexical entry from the Liddell/Scott reads:  Ἄτλαντες, in Architecture, colossal statues as supports for the entablature.&quot;  This is, in part, a commemoration of Atlas as benefactor, turned to stone to keep the sky from crashing down to earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But it's hard to regard such Titans as [Leto][9] or [Themis][10] as gigantic. (Themis highlights another issue in that she is tricked into making herself tiny so that Zeus, himself a master shapeshifter, can swallow her.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Epimetheus][11], generally regarded as the husband of Pandora, must have been man-sized or there would have been problems in the marital bed. *(The presumed difference in the size of Loki and [Angrboða][12], by contrast, would seem not to present such difficulties, and calls to mind a certain [Almodóvar film][13];)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Who is and who is not a Titan, and according to whom?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We're talking about a canon that forms over a millennium in textual form.  Later mythographers begin to conflate the Titanomachy and Gigantomachy, and giants with Titans, and the only thing constant is the state of flux.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Creating confusion is the existence of a Titan [Pallas][14] and a Giant [Pallas][15]. These may be conflated as the former comes from Hesiod, and the latter from Apollodorus, many centuries later.  The Apollodorus further conflicts with Euripides' account of who was flayed by Athena during the battle. It's not that one author is right and the other wrong so much as each storyteller has their own take. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's the question of [Typhon][16]. Not officially a Titan, but as the progeny of Gaia and Tartarus (compare to Gaia and Ouranos), Typhon is certainly a similar category of being, with [a similar cycle][17] of striving against the Olympians abd being cast down. [&quot;In size and strength [Typhon] surpassed all the offspring of Earth.&quot;][18] From a modern perspective, influenced by the [Harryhausen][19] classic &quot;[Clash of the Titans][20]&quot;, it's not difficult to see how a being like Typhon, or, in this case, [the Kraken][21], might come to be *thought of* as a Titan. This may shed some light on both the confusion arising from ancient sources, and the exacerbation of that confusion in the present era per often poorly sourced or misleading information, and suboptimal translations.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**In the early accounts, what seems to distinguish Titans is not their size but their early genesis and primal nature.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;__________________________________________________&#xD;&#xA;*Hopefully this provides some answers on the question of Atlas in particular, and the Titans in general.  Although **I heartily agree that not all Titans would have been gigantic**, and there is a similar example in Norse mythology, where not all giants seem to be the same size.*  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*The association of great size with the Titans most likely relates partly to Atlas in his role as reluctant, but important, benefactor to mankind, and to Titans like [Oceanus][22] and [Tethys][23], who, by their very nature, are titanic indeed.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*No one who has witnessed the dawn breaking would conceive of &quot;rosy fingered&quot; [Eos][24] as anything but horizon spanning, and even when picturing her in human form, this association would be present. Homer is not being entirely literal when he describes Eos in her chariot riding to Olympus to hearken the day. Homer was a poet first and foremost.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***The Titans are widely anthropomorphised, but these primal entities are also at once the things they represent, such as oceans, mountains and the dawn.  This parallels the conception of Gaia and Ouranos as literally the earth and sky.***  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_logic&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/image?img=Perseus:image:1990.33.0539.lg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Herakles/Hpix/1991.01.1003.jpeg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Herakles/Hpix/1990.05.0435.jpeg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0135%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D44&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D44&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D507&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_(architecture)&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leto&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metis_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epimetheus_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angrbo%C3%B0a&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/reviews/talk-to-her-20021105&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pallas_(Titan)&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pallas_(Giant)&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhon&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D853&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D6%3Asection%3D3&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Harryhausen&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_the_Titans_(1981_film)&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: http://clash-of-the-titans.wikia.com/wiki/Greek_Mythology#Kraken&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceanus&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tethys_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eos" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11327" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2809" RevisionGUID="49660549-1d52-4192-a5d9-09bf9fa1d807" CreationDate="2017-08-08T00:54:24.670" UserId="2892" Text="In particular, is there any thinking on how things might work between [Loki][1] and [Angrboða][2], who produced significant offspring.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, are there instances of intimate relations between male giants and female goddesses or mortals?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a more general perspective, I'd be interested in any information on how the size differential between the gods and giants in stories where they interact, for instance in the [third ríma of the Lokrur][3]. Even if they use illusion to make Jörmungandr appear to be a cat, how can the world serpent even fit in a room?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angrbo%C3%B0a&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lokrur#Third_r.C3.ADma" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11328" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2809" RevisionGUID="49660549-1d52-4192-a5d9-09bf9fa1d807" CreationDate="2017-08-08T00:54:24.670" UserId="2892" Text="How do the Norse reconcile the size difference between giants and non-giants in relation to procreation?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11329" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2809" RevisionGUID="49660549-1d52-4192-a5d9-09bf9fa1d807" CreationDate="2017-08-08T00:54:24.670" UserId="2892" Text="|norse|giants|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11330" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2808" RevisionGUID="5a6ce385-3fbd-43b2-af76-2671bd44e582" CreationDate="2017-08-08T01:17:38.993" UserDisplayName="user1079" Comment="Two minor typos." Text="#Did Ragnarök myths influence the Revelation?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nearly all of the imagery in the Revelation (singular; not Revelation*s*) is borrowed from the Hebrew bible (i.e. the Old Testament). Of the remainder, most of it can be found in other first century Jewish and Christian literature, or in first century Greco-Roman myths and politics.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To break down specific points raised in the original question:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a concept [of 'Ragnarok', i.e. an eschaton] is not found in the Old Testament and is not associated with Jewish mythology and thought&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eschatological expectations of an idealized future, often after a period of conflict, are found in some of the later prophets of the Hebrew bible (e.g. Trito-Isaiah, Trito-Zechariah, Joel).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;John's Revelation is a textbook example of a Jewish apocalypse. Early elements of the genre can be found in pre-exilic and exilic Hebrew prophetic literature. The genre really took off in the late Persian or early Greek era. The defining purpose of the apocalyptic genre is to reveal something hidden about the world, especially as related to the unseen spiritual realm and the future ('apocalypse' means 'revelation' or 'a revealing'). Elaborate symbolism is a usual feature in these apocalypses, such as Daniel, Enoch's Book of Parables, or Fourth Ezra.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The same period when apocalypticism was growing within Judaism, factions emerged in Judean politics. By the first century AD, the three most well-known factions were the Pharisees, Essenes, and Sadducees. Even at the time (e.g. by Josephus) they were defined by their eschatological views, showing just how important 'the eschaton' was in Israelite society. Similarities are drawn between the early Christians and both the Pharisees and the Essenes. To put it simply, eschatological beliefs *were* a major part of 'Jewish mythology and thought', and have a complex history going back centuries prior to the Revelation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Similarities with Revelations/Ragnarok may be said to include the Sun being swallowed up,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The failing of the sun, moon, and stars is a common picture in ancient Israelite and Judean prophetic texts (e.g. Amos 5.18-20; Isa 13.10,13; Ezek 32.7-8; Joel 2.10). In the older examples, it is plainly idiomatic, denoting social upheaval, i.e. the disruption or overthrow of a nation. Later examples employ it in a more traditionally climactic sense, i.e. history-ending.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a great serpent rising from the sea,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This seems to be combining two different images in the Revelation, first the dragon which is thrown out of heaven (Rev 12.3-9) and is imprisoned in the abyss (20.1-3), and second the crimson beast which emerges from the sea (13.1) or abyss (11.7; 17.8).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Revelation's dragon or sea-monster comes from the Combat Myth, an archetypal myth seen in many Indo-European cultures. In the ancient Near East this myth predates the Revelation by centuries, and can be seen across the Hebrew bible (e.g. Isa 27.1; 51.9; Psa 74.12-14; Job 26.12-13).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Revelation's beast is an amalgam of Daniel 7.1-14's four beasts, each of which emerges from the sea. The Daniel 7 passage is vaguely reminiscent of the Combat Myth, but its specific verbage — one riding on the clouds, receiving an eternal kingdom — draws attention to a particular Ugaritic form of the Combat Myth in which Baal conquers the sea god Yam and receives an eternal kingdom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the dead rising,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The resurrection of the dead can be found in at least three texts of the Hebrew bible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The latest is the Book of Daniel, published circa 167-165 BC. It is almost certainly the final of the canonical prophets, and envisions 'the time of the end' as a period of crisis (the Maccabean Revolt) followed by the downfall of Israel's oppressor (Antiochus Epiphanes). Daniel 12 relays that those who died in the crisis will be raised to life for either reward or punishment.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Prior to this, the image of the dead being restored to life is found in Ezek 37.1-14, written circa 585 BC. Here the scene is widely agreed to be a metaphor for the restoration of the Judean nation after the Babylonian exile.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The third text is Isaiah 24-27. Dating for this text is disputed, ranging from the eighth century BC to the fifth or fourth century BC. There is also debate whether the image of the dead rising is meant to be a metaphor, as in Ezekiel, or literal, as in Daniel. It has been suggested the dead rising in Isaiah 24-27 has parallels in Ugaritic mythology (cf. Cho, Fu, 'Death and Feasting in the Isaiah Apocalypse (Isaiah 25.6-8)', *Formation and Intertextuality in Isaiah 24-27* (ed. Hibbard, Kim)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Revelation draws on all three examples. The Revelation's structure is designed to follow both Daniel and Ezekiel, so that the resurrection is seen near the end of the book. Rev 20.4 καὶ ἔζησαν (they lived) is identical to LXX Ezek 37.10. And Rev 7.17 and 21.4 each verbally echo Isa 25.8.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fire raining down upon the world,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Fire as a form of divine judgment is replete across the Hebrew bible, and features heavily in apocalyptic literature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and a horn sounding to signal the onset of the end.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Hebrew bible, trumpets are used in Israelite religious festivals, worship practices, and war. Of special interest here, the sounding of a trumpet is associated with eschatological expectations in Zechariah 9.14 (written in the sixth century BC) and Joel 2.1 (date disputed; third century BC at the latest).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#Conclusion&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did the Ragnarök mythos influence the Revelation?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Almost certainly not.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The earliest evidence of the Ragnarök mythos, such as Thorwald's Cross or the Gosforth Cross, seems to be found no earlier than the tenth century AD. As the name of these objects indicates, however, these come from an age long after Christianity had swept across Europe. So though the Ragnarök mythos probably goes a ways earlier than the tenth century AD, we can't say for certain *when* it originated.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In contrast, a substantial chunk of the Revelation's imagery predate the book by centuries. The Revelation was written circa AD 90-95, and comes from a long-standing tradition of apocalyptic expectations within Judaism. Other than the specific Christian ideas present in the text and allusions to contemporary Greco-Roman symbolism (e.g. 'Babylon the great city' sitting on 'seven hills' corresponding to Rome 'the city of the seven hills'), most of the Revelation's imagery comes from Hebrew scriptures that are centuries old, which themselves contain pictures and ideas centuries older than that." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11331" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2809" RevisionGUID="4957bc2d-e41a-4248-a0c5-aafdbddced05" CreationDate="2017-08-08T01:46:40.217" UserId="2892" Comment="corrected typos" Text="In particular, is there any thinking on how things might work between [Loki][1] and [Angrboða][2], who produced significant offspring? I'd also be interested in other examples of giant/non-giant matches. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a more general perspective, I'm interested in how the size differential between the gods and giants is reconciled in stories where they interact, for instance in the [third ríma of the Lokrur][3]. Even if illusion were utilized to make Jörmungandr *appear* to be a cat, how can the world serpent fit into a hall?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angrbo%C3%B0a&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lokrur#Third_r.C3.ADma" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11332" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2809" RevisionGUID="4957bc2d-e41a-4248-a0c5-aafdbddced05" CreationDate="2017-08-08T01:46:40.217" UserId="2892" Comment="corrected typos" Text="How to reconcile the size differential between giants and non-giants in Norse mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11333" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2810" RevisionGUID="711e408a-23b0-43e8-802b-8879a0f793fb" CreationDate="2017-08-08T07:25:04.913" UserId="3373" Text="As mentioned above Ragnarök was not in any way influenced by St. John's Apocalypse; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding the Revelation of St. John, let me share fragments of Peter&#xD;&#xA;Grey's &quot;The Red Goddess&quot; (splendid read, btw.) &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; St John the &quot;Divine&quot; (...) His personal history is less than edifying with what sounds like an arson attack on a temple of Artemis, the drowning of a local magician and sunder other atrocities, but Revelations is the real poison chalice.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story of Babalon and the Seven-Headed Beast comes from the legend of Artemis and the Dragon; We may find a elegant picture from the Schlangenbuch by Conradus Gesner: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A portrayal from Schlangenbuch. Das ist ein grundtliche vnd vollkom[m]ne Beschreybung aller Schlangen, so im Meer, süssen Wassern vnd auff Erdenjr wohnung haben, Sampt der selbigen conterfaitung: Erstlich durch den Hochgelehrten weytberümpten Herrn D. Conrat Geßnern zusamen getragen vnnd beschriben, vnnd hernaher durch den Wolgelehrten Herrn Jacobum Carronum gemehrt vnd in dise ordnung gebracht: An yetzo aber mit sondrem fleyß verteütscht ([4] Bl., LXXII Bl.)&#xD;&#xA;Gesner, Conradus&#xD;&#xA;Getruckt zu Zürych: in der Froschow; 1589&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://digital.onb.ac.at/OnbViewer/viewer.faces?doc=ABO_%2BZ185662203&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/6TeSD.jpg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;St. John's &quot;Revelations&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At times it is a polemic aganst the pagan gods of the day, already well on the way to being cast as demons in the new Christian history. At others it is a prophecy about the fate of the word. This is also a book that has divided Christians. In the fourth century, John of Christom argued that it should not be included in the cannon of the New Testament. It was too dangerous, too open to abuse and misinterpretation. It is the only book that the Easter Orthodox Church&#xD;&#xA;do not read in the Divine Liturgy. Revelation continues to perplex and&#xD;&#xA;seized upon by evangelicals eagerly hungering for the end of times the rapture, and the whiﬀ of brimstone to enﬂame their congregations. It is shunned by the moderates buiding inter-faith bridges with their libera lamb Jesus. Revelatons insists you take sides in the coming war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The Red Goddess, Peter Grey &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; There is just one small problem. Revelations expplicitly state that the end&#xD;&#xA;&gt; times were happening right then in the ancient Roman Empire. On the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; very first page, in the third paragraph John writes that 'the time is at&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hand. This is not a document about barcodes, the United Nations, or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; credit cards. It comes out of a very real sense that the end is, or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rather was, nigh in the first century. Jesus was meant to be pitching&#xD;&#xA;&gt; up any minute. That did not happen. Unforunately for us this little&#xD;&#xA;&gt; detail has been rather overlooked by Christanty, which was not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; prepared to fold its fanchise when the Messiah missed hs cue. Soon he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; will be two thousand years too late. You can tap dance around the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; facts all you like, but this is the bottom line: Revelations was a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; damp squib, it fizzled out in ancient Rome. Meanwhile, mankind still&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hungers after spiritual renaissance with the compliment of angels and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; pits of eteral hellfire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The Red Goddess, Peter Grey &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;St John's Revelations is more like a script for a common self-destruct agenda: Apocalypsis meant personal unveiling in the Greek Eleusinian mysteries, alike to Epiphany  - another word from Eleusis. It had more to do with opening the eyes, and destroying the oblivion of ignorance, rather than a hatred for the world and a death wish that propagated throughout the world. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11334" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2810" RevisionGUID="fab94291-9ef8-43dc-b0d3-1dcbbe742109" CreationDate="2017-08-08T07:31:59.813" UserId="3373" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="Regarding the Revelation of St. John, let me share fragments of Peter&#xD;&#xA;Grey's &quot;The Red Goddess&quot; (splendid read, btw.) &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; St John the &quot;Divine&quot; (...) His personal history is less than edifying with what sounds like an arson attack on a temple of Artemis, the drowning of a local magician and sunder other atrocities, but Revelations is the real poison chalice.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story of Babalon and the Seven-Headed Beast comes from the legend of Artemis and the Dragon; We may find a elegant picture from the Schlangenbuch by Conradus Gesner: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A portrayal from Schlangenbuch. Das ist ein grundtliche vnd vollkom[m]ne Beschreybung aller Schlangen, so im Meer, süssen Wassern vnd auff Erdenjr wohnung haben, Sampt der selbigen conterfaitung: Erstlich durch den Hochgelehrten weytberümpten Herrn D. Conrat Geßnern zusamen getragen vnnd beschriben, vnnd hernaher durch den Wolgelehrten Herrn Jacobum Carronum gemehrt vnd in dise ordnung gebracht: An yetzo aber mit sondrem fleyß verteütscht ([4] Bl., LXXII Bl.)&#xD;&#xA;Gesner, Conradus&#xD;&#xA;Getruckt zu Zürych: in der Froschow; 1589&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://digital.onb.ac.at/OnbViewer/viewer.faces?doc=ABO_%2BZ185662203&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/6TeSD.jpg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;St. John's &quot;Revelations&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At times it is a polemic against the pagan gods of the day, already well on the way to being cast as demons in the new Christian history. At others it is a prophecy about the fate of the world. This is also a book that has divided Christians. In the fourth century, John of Christ argued that it should not be included in the cannon of the New Testament. It was too dangerous, too open to abuse and misinterpretation. It is the only book that the Eastern Orthodox Church do not read in the Divine Liturgy. Revelation continues to perplex and&#xD;&#xA;seized upon by evangelicals eagerly hungering for the end of times the rapture, and the whiﬀ of brimstone to enﬂame their congregations. It is shunned by the moderates building inter-faith bridges with their liberal lamb Jesus. Revelations insists you take sides in the coming war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The Red Goddess, Peter Grey &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; There is just one small problem. Revelations explicitly state that the end&#xD;&#xA;&gt; times were happening right then in the ancient Roman Empire. On the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; very first page, in the third paragraph John writes that 'the time is at&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hand. This is not a document about barcodes, the United Nations, or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; credit cards. It comes out of a very real sense that the end is, or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rather was, nigh in the first century. Jesus was meant to be pitching&#xD;&#xA;&gt; up any minute. That did not happen. Unfortunately for us this little&#xD;&#xA;&gt; detail has been rather overlooked by Christianity, which was not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; prepared to fold its fanchise when the Messiah missed his cue. Soon he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; will be two thousand years too late. You can tap dance around the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; facts all you like, but this is the bottom line: Revelations was a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; damp squib, it fizzled out in ancient Rome. Meanwhile, mankind still&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hungers after spiritual renaissance with the compliment of angels and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; pits of eteral hellfire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The Red Goddess, Peter Grey &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;St John's Revelations is more like a script for a common self-destruct agenda: Apocalypsis meant personal unveiling in the Greek Eleusinian mysteries, alike to Epiphany  - another word from Eleusis. It had more to do with opening the eyes, and destroying the oblivion of ignorance, rather than a hatred for the world and a death wish that propagated throughout it. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11335" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2810" RevisionGUID="025cc082-c1f7-46a8-a1aa-4109092152b3" CreationDate="2017-08-08T07:36:59.847" UserId="3373" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="Might be considered a digression: If it will be considered as inappropriate, I will gladly remove it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding the Revelation of St. John, let me share fragments of Peter&#xD;&#xA;Grey's &quot;The Red Goddess&quot; (splendid read, btw.) &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; St John the &quot;Divine&quot; (...) His personal history is less than edifying with what sounds like an arson attack on a temple of Artemis, the drowning of a local magician and sunder other atrocities, but Revelations is the real poison chalice.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story of Babalon and the Seven-Headed Beast comes from the legend of Artemis and the Dragon; We may find a elegant picture from the Schlangenbuch by Conradus Gesner: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A portrayal from Schlangenbuch. Das ist ein grundtliche vnd vollkom[m]ne Beschreybung aller Schlangen, so im Meer, süssen Wassern vnd auff Erdenjr wohnung haben, Sampt der selbigen conterfaitung: Erstlich durch den Hochgelehrten weytberümpten Herrn D. Conrat Geßnern zusamen getragen vnnd beschriben, vnnd hernaher durch den Wolgelehrten Herrn Jacobum Carronum gemehrt vnd in dise ordnung gebracht: An yetzo aber mit sondrem fleyß verteütscht ([4] Bl., LXXII Bl.)&#xD;&#xA;Gesner, Conradus&#xD;&#xA;Getruckt zu Zürych: in der Froschow; 1589&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://digital.onb.ac.at/OnbViewer/viewer.faces?doc=ABO_%2BZ185662203&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/6TeSD.jpg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;St. John's &quot;Revelations&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At times it is a polemic against the pagan gods of the day, already well on the way to being cast as demons in the new Christian history. At others it is a prophecy about the fate of the world. This is also a book that has divided Christians. In the fourth century, John of Christ argued that it should not be included in the cannon of the New Testament. It was too dangerous, too open to abuse and misinterpretation. It is the only book that the Eastern Orthodox Church do not read in the Divine Liturgy. Revelation continues to perplex and&#xD;&#xA;seized upon by evangelicals eagerly hungering for the end of times the rapture, and the whiﬀ of brimstone to enﬂame their congregations. It is shunned by the moderates building inter-faith bridges with their liberal lamb Jesus. Revelations insists you take sides in the coming war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The Red Goddess, Peter Grey &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; There is just one small problem. Revelations explicitly state that the end&#xD;&#xA;&gt; times were happening right then in the ancient Roman Empire. On the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; very first page, in the third paragraph John writes that 'the time is at&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hand. This is not a document about barcodes, the United Nations, or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; credit cards. It comes out of a very real sense that the end is, or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rather was, nigh in the first century. Jesus was meant to be pitching&#xD;&#xA;&gt; up any minute. That did not happen. Unfortunately for us this little&#xD;&#xA;&gt; detail has been rather overlooked by Christianity, which was not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; prepared to fold its fanchise when the Messiah missed his cue. Soon he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; will be two thousand years too late. You can tap dance around the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; facts all you like, but this is the bottom line: Revelations was a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; damp squib, it fizzled out in ancient Rome. Meanwhile, mankind still&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hungers after spiritual renaissance with the compliment of angels and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; pits of eteral hellfire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The Red Goddess, Peter Grey &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;St John's Revelations is more like a script for a common self-destruct agenda: Apocalypsis meant personal unveiling in the Greek Eleusinian mysteries, alike to Epiphany  - another word from Eleusis. It had more to do with opening the eyes, and destroying the oblivion of ignorance, rather than a hatred for the world and a death wish that propagated throughout it. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11336" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2811" RevisionGUID="49dd1c6a-1c75-4e26-94d8-70b8f1381e6f" CreationDate="2017-08-08T08:50:57.243" UserId="4021" Text="I'm looking for any good related with books or maybe knowledge. Preferable if It is keeping or guarding that knowledge. Is there any?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11337" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2811" RevisionGUID="49dd1c6a-1c75-4e26-94d8-70b8f1381e6f" CreationDate="2017-08-08T08:50:57.243" UserId="4021" Text="Is there any librarian god?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11338" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2811" RevisionGUID="49dd1c6a-1c75-4e26-94d8-70b8f1381e6f" CreationDate="2017-08-08T08:50:57.243" UserId="4021" Text="|mythohistory|pantheon|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11339" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2812" RevisionGUID="6f21a998-fd7d-4e13-ab3e-e24d556d6831" CreationDate="2017-08-08T19:09:03.230" UserId="2892" Text="Chinese mythology has a heavy emphasis on deification of scholars, beginning with the [Yellow Emperor][1], whose patronage to mankind was primarily as a teacher, inventor and scholar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are several Chinese gods who are patrons to scholars:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Wenchang Wang][2] is a patron of scholars and students, often called upon by those about to take the Imperial exams.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can find some interesting info on Wenchang [at this link][3]. (Scholars and poets often practiced the art of straight sword. The great poet, [Li Po][4], was said to be a skilled practitioner.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Kui Xing][5] is the god of Imperial examinations, and an associate of Wenchang.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Lü Dongbin][6] is a scholar and poet who became one of the 8 immortals, and help humans attain wisdom and enlightenment.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lü is often depicted with a sword that dispels evil spirits, and as one of the 8 immortals, Lü has superior martial abilities and is, in part, a protector deity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Greek mythology, I think: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Clio][7], Muse of History &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Her domain is scholarship as opposed to creative art, and [she is often depicted with scrolls and books][8]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Emperor#Achievements&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenchang_Wang&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/swordmyth1.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Bai&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kui_Xing&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%BC_Dongbin&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clio&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.theoi.com/Gallery/Z20.5.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11340" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2813" RevisionGUID="65b9155d-0712-477b-8723-db52777c25c8" CreationDate="2017-08-09T05:51:15.217" UserId="3804" Text="Look up the treasures forged by the dwarves of Svartalfheim in their [competition][1] to please Odin and Thor and the other gods (the myth in which Loki bets his head, loses, then famously gets his mouth sewn shut). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of the treasures created by the dwarves, I'd guess the most valuable monetarily is Odin's ring, because it multiplies every few days and he's presumably been around for thousands of years... I've not read anything on what he did with all his extra rings. If this is for a creative writing project, maybe you could extrapolate that he's got them all locked away in a chest somewhere.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The more valuable (non-monetarily) treasure, I think, is the ship because it is so useful and yet so concealable. And as far as real-life Viking relics merely related to Norse myth, I think something along the lines of Mjolnir would be your best bet. Vikings really did use warhammers and several relics like amulets representative of Thor's hammer have been unearthed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But, if you want a real treasure important to most or all of the Norse gods, I'd focus on [Idun's Golden Apples][4]. In Norse myth, they grant immortality to the gods and are kept by a specific person (Idun, pronounced ee-done), and the magic fades when Idun is taken in another story... &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/mythology/myths/text/treasures.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/the-aesir-gods-and-goddesses/idun/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11341" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2814" RevisionGUID="245b9c6d-cd38-427f-9322-be962335c229" CreationDate="2017-08-09T07:25:29.520" UserId="3960" Text="Did YWHW ever forbid Adam and Eve to eat the fruit from Tree of Life, or it was only forbidden after they ate the fruit from Tree of Good and Evil? Were they being expelled from Eden only because YWHW were afraid that they then would eat the Life Fruit so that *&quot;they would become like us&quot;*, said YWHW in the Bible?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11342" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2814" RevisionGUID="245b9c6d-cd38-427f-9322-be962335c229" CreationDate="2017-08-09T07:25:29.520" UserId="3960" Text="Have Adam and Eve ever eaten the fruit from Tree of Life?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11343" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2814" RevisionGUID="245b9c6d-cd38-427f-9322-be962335c229" CreationDate="2017-08-09T07:25:29.520" UserId="3960" Text="|bible|world-tree|god-items|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11344" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2815" RevisionGUID="4a05911f-12b5-4f87-b554-40809722cac0" CreationDate="2017-08-09T11:56:31.440" UserId="1241" Text="It will be very difficult to find a &quot;librarian god or goddess&quot; in the in any pagan culture. There are many [gods of knowledge, wisdom, scholarship, education and so on.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The closest example I am able to find is the Armenian god Tir. In Armenian pagan culture he is the god of literature, science and art. Being the god of literature in a sense makes him like being the god of libraries. I doubt one will truly find a god of libraries and Tir is the closest I can find to fit the bill as books (literature) are stored in libraries!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tir is the god of Literature, Science and Art, and interpreter of dreams in Armenian paganism. Tir was a messenger of Aramazd. He was a fortune-teller and a guide of the dead person's soul. Another name for Tir was Grogh (meaning writer or scribe), though this might be a fusion of two originally distinct deities. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; His biggest temple, known as the Erazamuyn (translated from Armenian &quot;place where dreams are explained&quot;), stood at what is today the ruined Zvartnots cathedral; the original design of the temple is still very evident in its construction as it is very different from the typical Armenian church, being circular, elevated by large steps and lined with columns. At Tir's temple, priests would interpret peoples dreams and tell their fortunes, and **the temple also served as a library and academy**. Ruins of another temple to him was found near the ancient city of Artashat in Ararat valley. He is among the pantheon of gods represented on Mt. Nemrut, an ancient site now located in Turkey. - [Tir (WikiPagan][2])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_knowledge_deities&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://pagan.wikia.com/wiki/Tir" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11345" PostHistoryTypeId="12" PostId="2815" RevisionGUID="75a51563-5af1-4064-8d26-986d6e5e615d" CreationDate="2017-08-09T12:03:37.527" UserId="1241" Comment="via Vote" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:1241,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ken Graham&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="11346" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2816" RevisionGUID="3144b09f-8b56-4a78-9897-53fd73ddbd49" CreationDate="2017-08-09T12:35:25.230" UserId="2774" Text="Depend if you are interested in scholarly approach or general approach.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;General approach&#xD;&#xA;----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In those books, I range those who are both fun and informative, while not being horrible 600+ pages books without illustration in 10 size fonts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The everything classical mythology][1], affordable and fun to read; Offer a cover of the Greeks myth from the Gigantomachy up to Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[the complete idiot's guide to mythology][2] another fairly simple and fun book to read. it's an Idiot's guide so don't expect too much, but nice.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Classical mythology &amp; more][3] another good and easy entry level book. This one, contrary to the first two, actually cites a lot of sources, and the juicy passages. this is overall a damn fairly good and solid book while of easy access. Note also it is designed with teaching in mind so in a way fairly great for a learner (there is little exercises at the end of each chapter).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[D'aulaire's Greek myth][4] Fairly classical, not especially my recommendation. If you love the way the d'Aulaires are working you can check those wonderful graphic novels [Odysseus][5], there is a full series covering lots of myth, I would favor those over d'Aulaire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Scholar approach&#xD;&#xA;----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Those books are if you are interested... Lots of texts, few images, this is the fairly serious matter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Early greek myth][6], Timothy Gantz, you have everything there, sources, literacy; this is the de facto starting book. There are 2 volumes, and definitely NOT a beginner's guide. If you want a gentle introduction, refer to my general section.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Greek religion][7] by Walter Burkert, just note the author is German, and I pointed you to a translation. Don't stop to this book Burkert IS a must read, providing the subject interest you. Another extremely good one to read is Structure and history in Greek mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Art and myth in ancient Greece][8] T.H Carpenter, which offers a beautiful reading of myths and arts, here and there you see me using arts or hieroglyphs to explain this or that. While not a compendium, that is a fairly useful tool for you. Even Gantz or Burkert are not especially art oriented.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Greek mythology, an introduction][9] by Fritz Graf, another German guy (learning German when you love myth is FAR from a bad idea, fact is learning English, German and French is pretty smart). This is less aggressive than Grantz (only 300 pages) but still should be read.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Metamorphoses][10] by Ovid, if you are looking for THE reference, you have it. Not only it is filled up to the root with mythologies BUT, cherry on the cake, it is one of the best poets on Earth who wrote it... you find there lots of alternate versions (read the myth of Romulus and Remus to see Ovid's giving you his opinion with subtlety)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Penguin's dictionary][11] it's some Penguin's material, solid, well written a good source and reference.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can add DukeZhou's Hamilton &amp;&amp; Oxford book.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To avoid&#xD;&#xA;--------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[the Greek myth][12] by Bob Graves. Lack of seriousness for the myth part and for the poetic aspect I pick Ovid anytime. Quite cited here and there (especially here). If you have time, only (I just gave you 4000 pages... not to mention the Greek/Roman authors... come to me after Homer, Hesiod, Herodotus, Thucydides, Plato and Plutarch.... Roughly 10k pages before Graves)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.amazon.fr/Everything-Classical-Mythology-Book-Goddesses/dp/158062653X&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Classical-Mythology-Lifestyle-Paperback/dp/1592572898&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.amazon.com/Classical-Mythology-More-Reader-Workbook/dp/0865165734&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.amazon.com/DAulaires-Greek-Myths-Ingri-dAulaire/dp/0440406943&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.amazon.com/Odysseus-Escaping-Poseidons-Graphic-Paperback/dp/0822585154&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.amazon.com/Early-Greek-Myth-Literary-Artistic/dp/0801853605&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.amazon.com/Greek-Religion-Walter-Burkert/dp/0674362810&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.amazon.com/Art-Myth-Ancient-Greece-World/dp/0500202362&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://www.amazon.com/Greek-Mythology-Introduction-Fritz-Graf/dp/0801853958&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://www.amazon.com/Metamorphoses-Oxford-Worlds-Classics-Ovid/dp/0199537372&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://www.amazon.com/Penguin-Dictionary-Classical-Mythology/dp/0140512357&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://www.amazon.com/Greek-Myths-Complete-Definitive/dp/0241952743" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11347" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2817" RevisionGUID="75e14d4e-c4bb-4339-9ec0-5a6a39127704" CreationDate="2017-08-09T19:07:57.787" UserId="4055" Text="Yes, He warned them off the fruit, lest they die and, no, they were expelled from the garden because of their disobedience towards God's will. All of which strikes me as unfair insofar as it's akin to placing a toddler in the kitchen and saying, &quot;here are all these delicious vegetables I want you to eat, but if you ever eat these delicious, scrumptious brownies, I will eternally damn you and everyone you ever know to a lake of fire where you will be tormented forever by demonic beings of my creation. Why? Because I love you. Ta-ta! Be back in a minute; I'm leaving the talking snake in charge. Be good!&quot; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11348" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2818" RevisionGUID="46b4287e-dc18-421e-8c40-918944ddcf8f" CreationDate="2017-08-09T20:13:49.503" UserId="2892" Text="Nope, they did not get that tasty fruit that would have granted them eternal life:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now the Lord God said, &quot;Behold man has become like one of us, having the ability of knowing good and evil, and now, lest he stretch forth his hand and take also from the Tree of Life and eat and live forever.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And He drove the man out, and He stationed from the east of the Garden of Eden the cherubim and the blade of the revolving sword, to guard the way to the Tree of Life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source: [The Book of Genesis][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm not finding a specific prohibition prior to their knowledge of good and evil, or even a prohibition *per se*, as clearly they have lost God's trust and need to by physically barred from access to the tree of life. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8167/jewish/Chapter-3.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11349" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2818" RevisionGUID="e7fb2774-3420-4f18-aeae-fa7d69d087d5" CreationDate="2017-08-09T20:19:06.183" UserId="2892" Comment="added 536 characters in body" Text="Nope, they did not get that tasty fruit that would have granted them eternal life:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now the Lord God said, &quot;Behold man has become like one of us, having the ability of knowing good and evil, and now, lest he stretch forth his hand and take also from the Tree of Life and eat and live forever.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And He drove the man out, and He stationed from the east of the Garden of Eden the cherubim and the blade of the revolving sword, to guard the way to the Tree of Life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source: [The Book of Genesis][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm not finding a specific prohibition prior to their knowledge of good and evil, or even a prohibition *per se*, as clearly they have lost God's trust and need to by physically barred from access to the tree of life. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And the Lord God caused to sprout from the ground every tree pleasant to see and good to eat, and the Tree of Life in the midst of the garden, and the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And the Lord God commanded man, saying, &quot;Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat of it, for on the day that you eat thereof, you shall surely die.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source: [The Book of Genesis][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8167/jewish/Chapter-3.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8166/jewish/Chapter-2.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11350" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2819" RevisionGUID="53f7367c-e6b8-4e8c-87d3-75dfb9f76e7b" CreationDate="2017-08-09T22:51:44.327" UserId="3989" Text="Plato famously blames the Egyptian god &amp;ldquo;Theuth&amp;rdquo; (Thoth) for the invention of writing in [*Phaedrus* 274c][1]&amp;ndash;275b. Yes, *blames* rather than credits, because although Plato was himself a writer, writing was long and widely considered a gimmick and unserious during the classical period in Greece.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In any case, the true and original home of myth is in preliterate, oral-traditional stages of culture. The advent of writing is a condition for the shift from the *mythos* to the *logos* mode of human consciousness. Even apart from this basic tension between the mythopoetic mind and the technology of writing, a library in the modern sense, with books sorted into separate sections by subject, is a particular extreme of the *logos* mode&amp;mdash;for one of the salient characteristics of mythic ideation and discourse is the seamless blending of various subject matters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In sum, I fear the idea of the library and the spirit of myth are fundamentally opposed to one another.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0174%3Atext%3DPhaedrus%3Asection%3D275b" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11351" PostHistoryTypeId="13" PostId="2815" RevisionGUID="b4961d60-e77a-4cb7-a19a-a714981f3505" CreationDate="2017-08-09T23:16:27.847" UserId="1241" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:1241,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ken Graham&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="11352" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2820" RevisionGUID="7c612470-9a46-4321-96fc-720a5f4219b5" CreationDate="2017-08-09T23:18:03.427" UserId="3351" Text="Simply put, according to the Orphic version of the mythology Zeus declared Dionysus the inheritor to the throne.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the origins of Dionysus, most stories say that he was born in Asia, and one in particular writes that he was born at the town Nysa (from which Dio-Nysus comes), that was later called &quot;Scythopolis&quot;, and today is called Beit She'an, located at Israel.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dionysus was known to the Greek world with many names and epithets, including but not limited to Dionysos, Bacchos, Savazios, Adonis, and Dikerotas (Bearer of Two Horns). Plutarch in &quot;Symposiacs&quot; claims that Dionysos is the God of the Jews. His arguments are of two natures:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A. Based on similarities between Greek and Hebrew names like Adonis - Adonai, Savazios - Sabbaoth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;B. On that (according to him at least) the altar at Solomon's temple was decorated with vine engravings, and that Jews at the Sabbath gathered at home and partied with wine. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources: Orphica, Plutarch &quot;Symposiacs&quot;." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11353" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2820" RevisionGUID="68b0b619-9052-49b2-a29e-89580d541916" CreationDate="2017-08-09T23:25:17.287" UserId="3351" Comment="deleted 4 characters in body" Text="Simply put, according to the Orphic version of mythology Zeus declared Dionysus the inheritor to the throne.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the origins of Dionysus, most stories say that he was born in Asia, and one in particular writes that he was born at the town Nysa (from which Dio-Nysus comes), that was later called &quot;Scythopolis&quot;, and today is called Beit She'an, located at Israel.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dionysus was known to the Greek world with many names and epithets, including but not limited to Dionysos, Bacchos, Savazios, Adonis, and Dikerotas (Bearer of Two Horns). Plutarch in &quot;Symposiacs&quot; claims that Dionysos is the God of the Jews. His arguments are of two natures:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A. Based on similarities between Greek and Hebrew names like Adonis - Adonai, Savazios - Sabbaoth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;B. On that (according to him at least) the altar at Solomon's temple was decorated with vine engravings, and that Jews at the Sabbath gathered at home and partied with wine. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources: Orphica, Plutarch &quot;Symposiacs&quot;." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11357" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2822" RevisionGUID="9dc5b06c-4b65-455f-b570-6ff533d639fd" CreationDate="2017-08-10T00:17:49.737" UserId="4023" Text="The common terms used to refer to the Greek/Roman god of death are Hades or Pluto, yet in the Aeneid, the god of death is commonly referred to as Dis. Further, the realm of Hades (the Underworld, which I've also heard referred to as Hades) is referred to as Orcus, but I've read that Orcus was a punisher of broken oaths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where did these differences come from?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11358" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2822" RevisionGUID="9dc5b06c-4b65-455f-b570-6ff533d639fd" CreationDate="2017-08-10T00:17:49.737" UserId="4023" Text="Use of the terms &quot;Dis&quot; and &quot;Orcus&quot; in the Aeneid" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11359" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2822" RevisionGUID="9dc5b06c-4b65-455f-b570-6ff533d639fd" CreationDate="2017-08-10T00:17:49.737" UserId="4023" Text="|greek|underworld|virgil|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11360" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2823" RevisionGUID="ebbea041-9043-4ca5-90e1-ee7230205cf4" CreationDate="2017-08-10T01:23:56.643" UserId="292" Text="Seshat, also called Sothis, was the Egyptian goddess of libraries, called [Mistress of the House of Books][1]. (She was also goddess of math, reading, measurement and writing.) Her name means &quot;[female scribe][2].&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;She was connected with Thoth, who invented writing. [Different texts][3] described her as his wife, daughter, or female aspect. She wore a leopard-skin dress and a headdress with a flower or seven-pointed star. She doesn't seem to have had any cult or temples, but she features in art from the Early Dynastic Period onward.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/seshat.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.ancient.eu/Seshat/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://egyptianmythology.org/seshat/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11361" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2824" RevisionGUID="e46cb4cd-a5a0-4783-a0e8-c7b3042464c0" CreationDate="2017-08-10T15:31:01.670" UserId="4023" Text="The Norse god Hoenir is very confused from what I can tell, but my question is about his mention in the book *The Legend of Sigurd and Gudrun* by J.R.R. Tolkien. In I.1, he writes&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; at [Odin's] right Hoenir &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; roamed beside him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is fairly consistent with what I've read about him as a companion of Odin. However, when Christopher Tolkien compiled the book, he also included some of his father's notes, one of which says&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At Odin's right hand there walks another figure, a nameless shadow [...] while ever at the right hand walks the shadow that is neither Odin nor Loki but in some aspect Fate, the real story that must be blended of both. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The rest of the writing clearly equates this trio with the trio mentioned in I.1 - Loki is at the left of Odin, and Hoenir/shadow are at the right, and all three are wandering. Odin is also mentioned in both as the leader of the three.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Christopher Tolkien, in some notes, says&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In my father's somewhat mysterious interpretation [...] he calls the companion of Odin who walks on his right hand 'a nameless shadow', but this must surely be Hoenir, or at least derived from him [...] to my understanding, [...] there is nothing that casts light on the 'nameless shadow' that walks beside Odin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there anything that explains this mysterious connection made between Hoenir and a 'nameless shadow'/'Fate'?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11362" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2824" RevisionGUID="e46cb4cd-a5a0-4783-a0e8-c7b3042464c0" CreationDate="2017-08-10T15:31:01.670" UserId="4023" Text="Hoenir in Tolkien's writing" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11363" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2824" RevisionGUID="e46cb4cd-a5a0-4783-a0e8-c7b3042464c0" CreationDate="2017-08-10T15:31:01.670" UserId="4023" Text="|norse|names|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11366" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2826" RevisionGUID="068244f8-f803-43a2-8c24-8e89224eb0bd" CreationDate="2017-08-10T20:56:58.753" UserId="3460" Text="Norse mythology doesn't, outside of a few specific instances, actually specify the size of the giants (or the Aesir, for that matter) as far as I'm aware.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as other giant/non-giant matches, there's Skadi and Njord, Borr and Bestla, Freyr and Gerd.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as other size differentials, this varies but story, but in general, Norse mythology is rife with magic and shape-shifting that could explain most examples." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11367" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2827" RevisionGUID="9b6c9cba-3916-4ff6-a7f4-df72e35d7e25" CreationDate="2017-08-10T21:04:50.870" UserId="666" Text="Well, let's start with the obvious: where the jotuns in fact, giants?&#xD;&#xA;(I will be using &quot;jotuns&quot; for the group throughout, to have avoid confusion).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This seems likely, on at least some level; etymologically, the word means &quot;(great) eater&quot;, so it seems like that they were always associated with large size.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, the source which probably is best for size comparisons between giants and gods is the story in *Gylfaginning* about Thor's journey to Útgarða-Loki, which he does in company of (ordinary) Loki and Tjalfi and his human servants Þjálfi and Röskva. On their way, they meet up with the jotun Skrymir, which is much, much larger than them: they in fact mistake his gauntlet for a house. This indicates that jotuns other than Ymir can be really gigantic. It also does indicate that there is no significant difference in size between humans and gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When they arrive at Útgarða-Loki's castle, it is also enourmous. Even Thor can not open the gate, but they manage to squeeze in through the trellis. However, when they meet the inhabitants, it is only noted that they are &quot;big enough&quot;. Finally, as Thor is asked to wrestle with Útgarða-Loki's &quot;grandmother&quot;, she can not have appeared to be so much larger than him that it would be impossible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It should be noted that Útgarða-Loki is a master of illusion, so that while the sizes of the giants where probably not surprising to the party, we can not take the size of anything else for granted.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for other pairings of gods and giants, we should first note that all the Aesir are descended from jotuns, many born by jotun mothers (including Thor). Loki is in fact seen as a jotun. A few notable examples are Njord and Skaldi, Frey and Gerðr, Thor and Járnsaxa, and Odin and Gunnlöð.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources&#xD;&#xA;=======&#xD;&#xA; - Snorri, *Gylfaginning*, in translation by Karl G. Johansson and Mats Malm&#xD;&#xA; - SAOB, for the etymology of [giant][1].&#xD;&#xA; - Gro Steinsland, *Fornnordisk religion*, for double checking details.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.saob.se/artikel/?seek=j%C3%A4tte&amp;pz=1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11368" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2822" RevisionGUID="7119da6f-f286-405e-9523-3917c784533c" CreationDate="2017-08-10T21:29:53.727" UserId="2892" Comment="Edited to tweak the Latin for Dīs, and provide lexical links for the terms" Text="The common terms used to refer to the Greek/Roman god of death are Hades or Pluto, yet in the Aeneid, the god of death is commonly referred to as [Dīs][1]. Further, the realm of Hades (the Underworld, which I've also heard referred to as Hades) is referred to as [Orcus][2], but I've read that Orcus was a punisher of broken oaths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where did these differences come from?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0060%3Aentry%3DDis&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aentry%3DOrcus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11369" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2822" RevisionGUID="7119da6f-f286-405e-9523-3917c784533c" CreationDate="2017-08-10T21:29:53.727" UserId="2892" Comment="Edited to tweak the Latin for Dīs, and provide lexical links for the terms" Text="Use of the terms &quot;Dīs&quot; and &quot;Orcus&quot; in the Aeneid" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11370" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2807" RevisionGUID="373410eb-f348-40a9-b3b2-534ca40d3531" CreationDate="2017-08-10T21:42:06.773" UserId="2892" Comment="Added links to online academic sources for Apollodorus and Ovid, and moved Hamilton above Graves in the recommendation, since her work is more &quot;authoritative&quot; than Graves" Text="The [Oxford Classical Dictionary][1] is often referenced, and although not restricted to mythology, it contains much useful information on Classical civilization which provides critical context in understanding the mythology of the various periods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Edith Hamilton's Mythology][2] is another good compendium. Although not restricted to Greek mythology, and significantly less comprehensive than Graves, it is also less controversial, and Hamilton was a very fine scholar and translator, and has been widely utilized in education. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a compendium reflecting the breadth and tradition of Greek Mythology in particular, I still like [The Greek Myths][3], in that it is quite comprehensive and merges multiple, conflicting accounts of myths into a single narrative. It includes citations to the source material, and has a robust index that can be used to track the appearance of different characters from mythology across the canon.* &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;________________________________________________&#xD;&#xA;*Graves' *commentary* on the myths is not in favor, seen as overly speculative, a fair critique, but it is part of a modern tradition of interpretation deriving from [Frazer][4], and which has significantly influenced the thinking of artists in the 20th century and beyond. *(Nevertheless, I expect to get some down-votes for merely for mentioning this useful text;)* Graves' most famous book, *I, Claudius*, is widely regarded as one of the best novels of the 20th century, which places Graves in the tradition of authors like [Apollodorus][5] and [Ovid][6], who themselves created compendiums of the myths in there eras.  I highly recommend both of those authors!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The full text of Ovid's Metamorphoses can be found on Perseus in English and Latin][7]. (In Perseus' index of Greek and Roman texts, he is listed as P. Ovidius Naso.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The full text of Apollodorus' Bibliotheca can be found on Perseus in Greek and English, translated by Frazer himself!][8] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/acref/9780199545568.001.0001/acref-9780199545568&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythology_(book)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Greek_Myths&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_George_Frazer&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliotheca_(Pseudo-Apollodorus)&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphoses&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D1%3Asection%3D1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11371" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2811" RevisionGUID="13b06d9a-73bb-4d24-a5e4-83ecb6eb1e77" CreationDate="2017-08-11T05:19:16.947" UserId="4023" Comment="fixed grammar/spelling" Text="I'm looking for any god related with books or maybe knowledge. Preferable if it is keeping or guarding that knowledge, like as a librarian. Are there any such gods?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11372" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2811" RevisionGUID="13b06d9a-73bb-4d24-a5e4-83ecb6eb1e77" CreationDate="2017-08-11T05:19:16.947" Comment="Proposed by 4023 approved by 2892, 2774 edit id of 455" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11373" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2828" RevisionGUID="828950ca-6d39-4f64-8352-3f5f869b5023" CreationDate="2017-08-11T07:20:52.190" UserId="3302" Text="I have been reading about solar eclipses and it appears most cultures view it as a bad sign.  For example [here](http://www.bibalex.org/eclipse2006/HistoricalObservationsofSolarEclipses.htm) it appears that the religions either believe they are &quot;bad&quot; or sign of wrath.  And again the source [here][1] says the following &quot;In many ways it makes sense that eclipses would be seen as bad omens. For most early cultures, the sun was seen as a life-giver, something that was there every day, so something that blots out the sun was a terribly bad event, filled with foreboding.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.exploratorium.edu/eclipse-archive/dragon.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11374" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2828" RevisionGUID="828950ca-6d39-4f64-8352-3f5f869b5023" CreationDate="2017-08-11T07:20:52.190" UserId="3302" Text="Are there any stories that believe solar eclipses are a good sign?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11375" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2828" RevisionGUID="828950ca-6d39-4f64-8352-3f5f869b5023" CreationDate="2017-08-11T07:20:52.190" UserId="3302" Text="|eclipse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11376" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2829" RevisionGUID="6ea1c535-d587-44c7-b400-220aec2e4ee7" CreationDate="2017-08-11T07:45:21.997" UserId="57" Text="There appears to be a folk belief in Italy that &quot;flowers planted during a solar eclipse are more colourful than those planted at other times of the year&quot;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm afraid that although there's a ton of references to this factoid I wasn't able to find more information on it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; Khomami, N. Solar eclipse 2015: what you need to know. The Guardian. Available at: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/mar/19/solar-eclipse-what-you-need-to-know [Accessed 11 Aug. 2017].&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11377" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2828" RevisionGUID="d023f24e-5e4a-4247-b749-653bbdd225d6" CreationDate="2017-08-11T07:53:29.603" UserId="57" Comment="title &amp; flow; expanded quote; added tags. " Text="I have been reading about solar eclipses and it appears most cultures view them as a bad sign. For example, according to the article [Solar Eclipses in History and Mythology][1] it appears that all cultures either believed solar eclipses are &quot;bad&quot; sign or sign of wrath. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And another source says the following: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In many ways it makes sense that eclipses would be seen as bad omens. For most early cultures, the sun was seen as a life-giver, something that was there every day, so something that blots out the sun was a terribly bad event, filled with foreboding.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;The Sun-Eating Dragon, Eclipse Stories, Myths, and Legends. By Noel Wanner. http://www.exploratorium.edu/eclipse-archive/dragon.html&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any stories that present solar eclipses as a good sign?&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.bibalex.org/eclipse2006/HistoricalObservationsofSolarEclipses.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.exploratorium.edu/eclipse-archive/dragon.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11378" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2828" RevisionGUID="d023f24e-5e4a-4247-b749-653bbdd225d6" CreationDate="2017-08-11T07:53:29.603" UserId="57" Comment="title &amp; flow; expanded quote; added tags. " Text="Are there any stories that present solar eclipses as a good sign?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11379" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2828" RevisionGUID="d023f24e-5e4a-4247-b749-653bbdd225d6" CreationDate="2017-08-11T07:53:29.603" UserId="57" Comment="title &amp; flow; expanded quote; added tags. " Text="|folklore|superstition|eclipse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11380" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2686" RevisionGUID="5f13b329-b219-4437-86de-6d9061bd0167" CreationDate="2017-08-11T20:05:02.210" UserId="2682" Comment="improved formatting &amp; added some information" Text="**The name of the deity represented by the planet in question, strictly speaking, is Lucifer, or Luciferus, that is, as far as Roman mythology is concerned. His Greek equivalent has a few different names, the commonest of which are Eosphoros and Phosphoros.** The majority of Roman mythology is older Greek stories copy+pasted into new files with the Greek names swapped out for Roman ones.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lucifer was the personification and god of the Morning Star, and was one of the many sons of the Titan Astraeus by his wife Aurora, the goddess of the dawn. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lucifer had two mortal sons who grew up to become kings. [Ceÿx](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0004:entry=ceyx), the younger and more peaceful one, was king of Trachis, and a friend of Hercules and of Achilles’ father Peleus. In [Book 11 of his *Metamorphoses*](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/Metamorph11.htm#anchor_Toc64105702), the poet Ovid says that Ceÿx’s face shone like the brightness of his father the Dawn-Star, who is described as shrinking from shining in the sky when Ceÿx later drowns in a shipwreck.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lucifer was indistinct, and not to be known, that dawn, and since he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was not allowed to leave the sky, he covered his face in dense cloud.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Line 572*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lucifer’s older son Daedalion was a warlike king who became a grandfather of the musician Philammon and an ancestor of the Scythian king Thamyris. Through Daedalion, Lucifer was also an ancestor of the famous Trojan War hero Ulysses, who is called Odysseus in Greek. (Daedalion’s daughter Chione gave birth to Autolycus, the father of Anticlea, the mother of Ulysses.)&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;The few stars which were referred to as “planets” in ancient Italy and Greece were each dedicated to a particular major deity. The star Lucifer was known as the planet Venus because it was governed by the Roman love-goddess Venus. Aeneas, a son of Venus who fought on the side of the Trojans during the Trojan War, escaped from the destruction of Troy and is said to have made his way to Italy where his descendants founded the city of Rome. According to [Varro](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0050:book=2:commline=801), Aeneas was led from Troy to Europe by Lucifer, the star of his mother Venus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The system of naming the planets based on the divinity who owned each one was borrowed from the Greeks. The Greek equivalent of the goddess Venus is Aphrodite. In Greek myth, the planet which Aphrodite owned was supposed to be the Greek star-god Eosphoros [Eosphorus]. Phosphoros was a title used for Eosphorus, whom the Romans called Luciferus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Latin word *Luciferus* and the Greek word *Phosphoros* mean exactly the same thing: “Bringer/Bearer/Carrier of [the] Light,” which name was given to this god because he was the last star of the night sky to be visible on Earth before the sunrise.      &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Ancient Greek astronomy there were five heavenly bodies whose movement was so peculiar that they were dubbed *astra planeta*, the “wandering stars.” From the label applied to them we get the English word *planet*. These were [Stilbon](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/AsterStilbon.html), [**Eosphoros**](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/AsterEosphoros.html), [Pyroeis](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/AsterPyroeis.html), [Phaethon](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/AsterPhaethon.html) and [Phainon](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/AsterPhainon.html). English speakers today know them best, from the Roman names of the divinities who governed them, as Mercury, **Venus**, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn, respectively. These, in turn, correspond to their Greek counterparts Hermes, **Aphrodite**, Ares, Zeus and Kronos, respectively. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In some versions of this cosmology, the sun and the moon are also counted as “planets,” each with its corresponding deity likewise, making up a total of seven “wanderers” in the sky. I suspect that, apart from his multiple names and titles, the main source of confusion about the god Eosphoros/Phosphorus/Lucifer being the same as the *planet* Venus is because Venus is the only one of the planets owned by a female deity, even though all of the stars are themselves male deities. (The one exception to this is the “planet” Moon [who is = the Greek goddess Selene, called Luna by the Romans].) The star-god was male but he was ruled over by a more powerful divinity, who was female, i.e., Venus/Aphrodite.     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**STARLORE**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Greek mythology there was a pair of winged Titans named Helios, who was the sun-god, and Eos, who was the dawn-goddess (the Greek version of Aurora). Each of them drove his/her own fiery chariot drawn by flaming horses, and the two of them were literally the light of the world. When they descended to the Earth at the western edge of the world, the universe was plunged into night-time. (And during certain portions of the month, the night was governed by another winged Titan named Selene, the sister of Helios and Eos). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eos was the herald of Helios, and she perpetually rode ahead of him, announcing his arrival to the world each day in the form of morning-tide. In primordial times, Eos was married to her cousin, another winged Titan named Astraios, whose name means “Starry” (*Astraeus* to the Romans). The numerous stars of the sky were the sons of Astraios and Eos. One of these many celestial brothers was Eosphoros, who was named after his own mother. He acted as Eos’ herald, flying on his wings ahead of her to announce to the world the arrival of Eos at the beginning of each day prior to the Dawn’s performance of a similar service for the Sun in the van of his own daily appearance. (In the *Thebaid* and the *Silvae*, however, Statius portrays the Roman Luciferus as riding a winged horse rather than himself being winged. The Greek Eosphoros, on the other hand, is described as a stableman for the Sun’s horses.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eosphoros’ uniqueness among the stars, distinguished even among the few Wandering Ones, is that he was the only one still visible upon the daily appearance of Eos, “Dawn,” in the sky. His name, meaning “Dawn-Bringer,” is a reference to his mother’s light which he “brought” or “carried” into the world. One of his brothers, named Hesperos, “Evening” or “Dusk,” was the Evening Star, being the first visible star in the night sky.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;C. 500s BC, Parmenides of Elea, or rather (according to Pliny the Elder’s *Natural History*) Pythagoras of Samos, realised that the morning and evening stars were in fact the same *planetos*, at which point Eosphoros and Hesperos became merely alternate names for the same star-god in his “brighter” and “darker” aspects. (About a thousand years after Parmenides and Pythagoras, the Egyptian poet Nonnus, in [Dionysiaka 42.340](https://archive.org/stream/dionysiaca03nonnuoft#page/252/mode/2up), refers to this planet as *esperíen Aphrodíten*, the “Aphrodite of the Evening.”) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Phosphoros, “Light-Bringer,” was a title for this deity. *Luciferus* is basically the Latin translation of Greek φωσφόρος (*phosphóros*). The Romans also simply transliterated (rather than trans*lated*) φωσφόρος into Roman script, as *Phosphorus*, and used this as an epithet for their Luciferus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Roman mythology the evening star was originally a distinct god named Vesper or Vesperus (and also Hesperus, from the Greek *Hesperos*), a brother of Luciferus. A similar merging as that between Eosphoros and Hesperos occurred between Lucifer and Vesper when it was deduced that the morning and evening stars were actually a single celestial luminary. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ovid’s *Metamorphoses* describes Lucifer escorting the other stars in a procession out of the night sky at each dawn. Lucan’s *Pharsalia* much more dramatically has the stars flee from the sky, at the speed of hurled spears, upon the approach of the sun. The only one of them who always maintains his position until the sunrise is Lucifer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Here's a sketch of part of his section of his family tree:*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Luciferus' family tree][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/17SBa.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11381" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1724" RevisionGUID="22339601-9b72-405f-8d46-7b1ebcac7e64" CreationDate="2017-08-11T20:52:29.190" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar, improved formatting &amp; updated information" Text="In Greek mythology the story of the birth of the god Hermes makes it sound as if he was originally mortal and that he somehow managed to bribe his way into becoming the twelfth [i.e. the last] of the Twelve Olympians, after appeasing his half-brother Apollon [Apollo] with a musical instrument, and sacrificing some of the cattle he had stolen from the same Apollon to the other eleven Olympians and to himself(!).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hermes’ mother Maia was a daughter of the Titan Atlas. By some of this Titan's other daughters Zeus and Poseidon also had other sons, who all seem to have been born mortal. So there must have been something special about Maia herself or Hermes was at birth a mortal just like his half-brothers and cousins, and his father granted him immortality after he performed his amazing feats of theft on the day of his birth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the _Homeric Hymn to Hermes_, Apollon threatens to cast the baby Hermes into Tartaros &quot;to rule over the little folk there,&quot; a threat which no other god but Zeus ever seems to make to any other person in Greek myth. Is this an indication of Hermes' mortality at this point?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some Elaboration Notes for Your Consideration&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By his wife Pleïone, Atlas had several other daughters apart from the seven Pleïades, but focusing on these seven for an elaboration of what I mean about the inconsistency of their children’s mortality states&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;, here is an illustration of their families.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![7 Pleïades + Offspring][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Starting off with Maia as Number 1, if my estimation is correct, the birth order of the other 6 sisters is indicated by the importance of the gods with whom they consorted, so that Zeus had the 3 eldest, and Poseidon the next 2, while mortal kings married the 2 youngest. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I reckon that Sterope is older than (or, in some other sense, senior to) Merope because of the alternate tradition, mentioned by Plutarch and Hyginus, in which Sterope consorts with the god Ares (as opposed to marrying Ares’ mortal son Oinomaos; instead she becomes the mother of Oinomaos). I have therefore arranged them in this descending order in the illustration.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The proposed pattern would indicate that the younger the Pleïad is, the higher the chances that her offspring will be mortal, whether the father is immortal or not. (A similar phenomenon might be observable with Pleïone and her sisters, the other Okeanides [Oceanids].) This is one of a few ways I can think of in which the logic is supposed to work.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;The son of [the eldest] Maia is immortal {*born in this condition?*}.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;The children of [the 2nd-born] Elektra seem to become [minor] deities eventually (perhaps all of them, after their death, like Iasion; *or, alternatively, are Iasion’s full-siblings born immortal, unlike him?*).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;The son of [the 4th-born] Kelaino perhaps is made into an immortal by his father. (In Apollodorus’ *Bibliotheka*, Poseidon takes Lykos to live on the Blessed Islands.)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;All the children of the remaining sisters are mortal.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Assuming that Hermes was born immortal—in the illustration here the god has four [half-]brothers (who are also his maternal cousins)—why is none of these brothers (as far as I can tell) born immortal? Or are Iasion, Emathion, Dardanos and Lakedaimon (perhaps less-renowned?) immortals?&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond that, he has six cousins (the children of Poseidon by either Kelaino or Alkyone) with virtually the same configuration of parentage (if we assume that Poseidon is just as immortal as Zeus and that Kelaino and Alkyone are just as immortal as Maia).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The simpler solution to all this is per the main Question: Hermes was not immortal at birth but performed some fancy footwork in order to attain his status as one of the highest gods of the universe [of Greek mythology]. This way there is no incongruity between his mortality condition and that of his closest brothers and cousins. I do acknowledge that such incongruity is in no way uncommon to Greek myths, and is part of what gives them nuance appeal, but I am quite interested in whether there is any logic internal to the narrative world of these myths to explain *this* apparent incongruity in particular.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am not so much asking whether Hermes was a god or not when he was born. As with Hermes’ half-brother Zagreus&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; (which is a perhaps much less “mainstream” instance [from rather more “fringe” Greek mythology]), there are in fact cases of *mortal* divinities in this mythology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**My question has more to do with whether Hermes could die when he was born. And if not, what is it that sets him apart from the other children of Pleïades who also had divine fathers (Great Zeus himself included) but who were themselves clearly mortal?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;{*This is an expanded version of a question that I have asked on Yahoo! Answers and on MythForum.*}&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. The other daughters of Atlas and Pleione (apart from the Pleïades, i.e.) are irrelevant to the topic since only one of them, namely Dione, has any children. Dione’s husband Tantalos and their children Pelops (who marries Hippodameia, the daughter of the Pleiad Sterope [see illustration]), Niobe and Broteas are all mortal. In Hyginus’ *Fabulae*, Dione’s brother Hyas is killed by some wild animal, so he obviously is mortal. In the same passage of the *Fabulae*, all the children of Atlas and Pleione in general are described as mortal too. In that instance Hermes’ immortality is thus even more anomalous.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. The [*daimon*](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/daimon) part of Lakedaimon’s name, for instance, might indicate something about [his] divinity. (Also I realise that Emathion and Iasion might not be brothers but rather merely 2 different names for the same character.)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. Zagreus was in fact a god, born of two immortal parents; nonetheless he was slain by the Titans.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/1KVs3.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11382" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1724" RevisionGUID="d47535fd-0291-4590-9c4e-b1e522f3be1c" CreationDate="2017-08-11T21:17:38.077" UserId="2682" Comment="tweaked spellings" Text="In Greek mythology the story of the birth of the god Hermes makes it sound as if he was originally mortal and that he somehow managed to bribe his way into becoming the twelfth [i.e. the last] of the Twelve Olympians, after appeasing his half-brother Apollon [Apollo] with a musical instrument, and sacrificing some of the cattle he had stolen from the same Apollon to the other eleven Olympians and to himself(!).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hermes’ mother Maia was a daughter of the Titan Atlas. By some of this Titan's other daughters Zeus and Poseidon also had other sons, who all seem to have been born mortal. So there must have been something special about Maia herself or Hermes was at birth a mortal just like his half-brothers and cousins, and his father granted him immortality after he performed his amazing feats of theft on the day of his birth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the _Homeric Hymn to Hermes_, Apollon threatens to cast the baby Hermes into Tartaros &quot;to rule over the little folk there,&quot; a threat which no other god but Zeus ever seems to make to any other person in Greek myth. Is this an indication of Hermes' mortality at this point?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some Elaboration Notes for Your Consideration&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By his wife Pleïone, Atlas had several other daughters apart from the seven Pleïades, but focusing on these seven for an elaboration of what I mean about the inconsistency of their children’s mortality states&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;, here is an illustration of their families.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![7 Pleïades + Offspring][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Starting off with Maia as Number 1, if my estimation is correct, the birth order of the other 6 sisters is indicated by the importance of the gods with whom they consorted, so that Zeus had the 3 eldest, and Poseidon the next 2, while mortal kings married the 2 youngest. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I reckon that Sterope is older than (or, in some other sense, senior to) Merope because of the alternate tradition, mentioned by Plutarch and Hyginus, in which Sterope consorts with the god Ares (as opposed to marrying Ares’ mortal son Oinomaos; instead she becomes the mother of Oinomaos). I have therefore arranged them in this descending order in the illustration.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The proposed pattern would indicate that the younger the Pleïad is, the higher the chances that her offspring will be mortal, whether the father is immortal or not. (A similar phenomenon might be observable with Pleïone and her sisters, the other Okeanides [Oceanids].) This is one of a few ways I can think of in which the logic is supposed to work.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;The son of [the eldest] Maia is immortal {*born in this condition?*}.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;The children of [the 2nd-born] Elektra seem to become [minor] deities eventually (perhaps all of them, after their death, like Iasion; *or, alternatively, are Iasion’s full-siblings born immortal, unlike him?*).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;The son of [the 4th-born] Kelaino perhaps is made into an immortal by his father. (In Apollodorus’ *Bibliotheka*, Poseidon takes Lykos to live on the Blessed Islands.)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;All the children of the remaining sisters are mortal.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Assuming that Hermes was born immortal—in the illustration here the god has four [half-]brothers (who are also his maternal cousins)—why is none of these brothers (as far as I can tell) born immortal? Or are Iasion, Emathion, Dardanos and Lakedaimon (perhaps less-renowned?) immortals?&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond that, he has six cousins (the children of Poseidon by either Kelaino or Alkyone) with virtually the same configuration of parentage (if we assume that Poseidon is just as immortal as Zeus and that Kelaino and Alkyone are just as immortal as Maia).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The simpler solution to all this is per the main Question: Hermes was not immortal at birth but performed some fancy footwork in order to attain his status as one of the highest gods of the universe [of Greek mythology]. This way there is no incongruity between his mortality condition and that of his closest brothers and cousins. I do acknowledge that such incongruity is in no way uncommon to Greek myths, and is part of what gives them nuance appeal, but I am quite interested in whether there is any logic internal to the narrative world of these myths to explain *this* apparent incongruity in particular.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am not so much asking whether Hermes was a god or not when he was born. As with Hermes’ half-brother Zagreus&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; (which is a perhaps much less “mainstream” instance [from rather more “fringe” Greek mythology]), there are in fact cases of *mortal* divinities in this mythology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**My question has more to do with whether Hermes could die when he was born. And if not, what is it that sets him apart from the other children of Pleïades who also had divine fathers (Great Zeus himself included) but who were themselves clearly mortal?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;{*This is an expanded version of a question that I have asked on Yahoo! Answers and on MythForum.*}&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. The other daughters of Atlas and Pleïone (apart from the Pleïades, i.e.) are irrelevant to the topic since only one of them, namely Dione, has any children. Dione’s husband Tantalos and their children Pelops (who marries Hippodameia, the daughter of the Pleïad Sterope [see illustration]), Niobe and Broteas are all mortal. In Hyginus’ *Fabulae*, Dione’s brother Hyas is killed by some wild animal, so he obviously is mortal. In the same passage of the *Fabulae*, all the children of Atlas and Pleïone in general are described as mortal too. In that instance Hermes’ immortality is thus even more anomalous.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. The [*daimon*](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/daimon) part of Lakedaimon’s name, for instance, might indicate something about [his] divinity. (Also I realise that Emathion and Iasion might not be brothers but rather merely 2 different names for the same character.)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. Zagreus was in fact a god, born of two immortal parents; nonetheless he was slain by the Titans.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/1KVs3.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11383" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1724" RevisionGUID="086de899-c331-4a78-99be-b52f32445dde" CreationDate="2017-08-11T21:39:05.747" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; improved formatting" Text="In Greek mythology the story of the birth of the god Hermes makes it sound as if he was originally mortal and that he somehow managed to bribe his way into becoming the twelfth [i.e. the last] of the Twelve Olympians, after appeasing his half-brother Apollon [Apollo] with a musical instrument, and sacrificing some of the cattle he had stolen from the same Apollon to the other eleven Olympians and to himself(!).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hermes’ mother Maia was a daughter of the Titan Atlas. By some of this Titan's other daughters Zeus and Poseidon also had other sons, who all seem to have been born mortal. So there must have been something special about Maia herself or Hermes was at birth a mortal just like his half-brothers and cousins, and his father granted him immortality after he performed his amazing feats of theft on the day of his birth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the _Homeric Hymn to Hermes_, Apollon threatens to cast the baby Hermes into Tartaros &quot;to rule over the little folk there,&quot; a threat which no other god but Zeus ever seems to make to any other person in Greek myth. Is this an indication of Hermes' mortality at this point?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some Elaboration Notes for Your Consideration&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By his wife Pleïone, Atlas had several other daughters apart from the seven Pleïades, but focusing on these seven for an elaboration of what I mean about the inconsistency of their children’s mortality states&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;, here is an illustration of their families.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![7 Pleïades + Offspring][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Starting off with Maia as Number 1, if my estimation is correct, the birth order of the other 6 sisters is indicated by the importance of the gods with whom they consorted, so that Zeus had the 3 eldest, and Poseidon the next 2, while mortal kings married the 2 youngest. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I reckon that Sterope is older than (or, in some other sense, senior to) Merope because of the alternate tradition, mentioned by Plutarch and Hyginus, in which Sterope consorts with the god Ares (as opposed to marrying Ares’ mortal son Oinomaos; instead she becomes the mother of Oinomaos). I have therefore arranged them in this descending order in the illustration.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The proposed pattern would indicate that the younger the Pleïad is, the higher the chances that her offspring will be mortal, whether the father is immortal or not. (A similar phenomenon might be observable with Pleïone and her sisters, the other Okeanides [Oceanids].) This is one of a few ways I can think of in which the logic is supposed to work.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;The son of [the eldest] Maia is immortal {*born in this condition?*}.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;The sons of [the 2nd-born] Elektra seem to become [minor] deities eventually (perhaps all of them, after their death, like Iasion; *or, alternatively, are Iasion’s 2 full-brothers born immortal, unlike him?*).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;The son of [the 4th-born] Kelaino perhaps is made into an immortal by his father. (In Apollodorus’ *Bibliotheka*, Poseidon takes Lykos to live on the Blessed Islands.)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;All the children of the remaining sisters are mortal.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Assuming that Hermes was born immortal—in the illustration here the god has four [half-]brothers (who are also his maternal cousins)—why is none of these brothers (as far as I can tell) born immortal? Or are Iasion, Emathion, Dardanos and Lakedaimon (perhaps less-renowned?) immortals?&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond that, he has 6 cousins (the children of Poseidon by either Kelaino or Alkyone) with virtually the same configuration of parentage (if we assume that Poseidon is just as immortal as Zeus and that Kelaino and Alkyone are just as immortal as Maia).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The simpler solution to all this is per the main Question: Hermes was not immortal at birth but performed some fancy footwork in order to attain his status as one of the highest gods of the universe [of Greek mythology]. This way there is no incongruity between his mortality condition and that of his closest brothers and cousins. I do acknowledge that such incongruity is in no way uncommon to Greek myths, and is part of what gives them nuance appeal, but I am quite interested in whether there is any logic internal to the narrative world of these myths to explain *this* apparent incongruity in particular.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am not so much asking whether Hermes was a god or not when he was born. As with Hermes’ half-brother Zagreus&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; (which is a perhaps much less “mainstream” instance [from rather more “fringe” Greek mythology]), there are in fact cases of *mortal* divinities in this mythology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**My question has more to do with whether Hermes could die when he was born. And if not, what is it that sets him apart from the other children of Pleïades who also had divine fathers (Great Zeus included) but who were themselves clearly mortal?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;{*This is an expanded version of a question that I have asked on Yahoo! Answers and on MythForum.*}&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. The other daughters of Atlas and Pleïone (apart from the Pleïades, i.e.) are irrelevant to the topic since only one of them, namely Dione, has any children. Dione’s husband Tantalos and their children Pelops (who marries Hippodameia, the daughter of the Pleïad Sterope [see illustration]), Niobe and Broteas are all mortal. In Hyginus’ *Fabulae*, Dione’s brother Hyas is killed by some wild animal, so he obviously is mortal. In the same passage of the *Fabulae*, all the children of Atlas and Pleïone in general are described as mortal too. In that instance Hermes’ immortality is thus even more anomalous.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. The [*daimon*](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/daimon) part of Lakedaimon’s name, for instance, might indicate something about [his] divinity. (Also I realise that Emathion and Iasion might not be brothers but rather merely 2 different names for the same character.)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. Zagreus was in fact a god, born of two immortal parents; nonetheless he was slain by the Titans.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/1KVs3.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11386" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2830" RevisionGUID="296a6000-8a42-4fb1-b66b-9560cdfa3241" CreationDate="2017-08-11T23:34:26.403" UserId="4023" Text="A paper I just found by a Nicholas Kauffman entitled [*Nonnus’ Dionysiaca and&#xD;&#xA;Late-Antique Discourse on Warfare*](grbs.library.duke.edu/article/download/15683/6899) (warning, clicking on the link will download the article) has as its very first sentence&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Recent work on Nonnus’ Dionysiaca has highlighted the pervasive presence of Christian themes and ideas in the epic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The rest of the paper discusses some of these influences, and provides many citations.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also interesting is [*Brill’s Companion to Nonnus of Panopolis*][1] (Google books link) which on page 88 says&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As part of this larger process, Nonnus makes use of Christian allusions on all levels &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the article [Mythical Violence as Christian Violence in Nonnus’ Dionsysiaca](https://classicalstudies.org/annual-meeting/148/abstract/mythical-violence-christian-violence-nonnus%E2%80%99-dionsysiaca) it says&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Scholars of Nonnus in recent years have highlighted the extent and subtlety of the Christian resonances in the Dionysiaca&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the book [Nonnus of Panopolis in Context: Poetry and Cultural Milieu in Late Antiquity with a Section on Nonnus and the Modern World](https://books.google.com/books?id=rYoYCgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA241&amp;lpg=PA241&amp;dq=nonnus+and+christianity&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=-Nts2y-iQI&amp;sig=yp6Qu5vt4uq89JYizoBL3LCRER4&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwi9-rnsqdDVAhXM3YMKHaR5CTIQ6AEIUjAI#v=onepage&amp;q=nonnus%20and%20christianity&amp;f=false) (Google books link) edited by Konstantinos Spanoudakis (it seems to be a book of literary criticism) it says&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The fusion of Judeo-Christianity and the classical tradition of Hellenism [...] is exemplified in Nonnus' oeuvre.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Oeuvre just means the works of an author.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another [article][2] notes&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Dionysiaca is a work of rampant Paganism with hints of Christian imagery (if one looks close enough) but not a trace of Christian moralizing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The paper [*Reconstructing Nonnos: a Pagan Writer and a Christian Bishop?*][3] (link is to a pdf of an abstract) also says&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  select episodes of the Dionysiaca [...] reveal [...] a prevalence of Christian themes&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many more such quotes, papers, books, and articles. All in all, there seems to be a fairly clear scholarly consensus that there are indeed Christian influences in the *Dionysiaca*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=sLW9CwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA798&amp;lpg=PA798&amp;dq=The%20Use%20of%20Pagan%20Mythology%20in%20the%20Christian%20Empire%20with%20Particular%20Reference%20to%20the%20Dionysiaca%20of%20Nonnus&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=4LggqjYk3I&amp;sig=wiiwaXLJM7NYkekovqDKrCoros0&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiAmayIqdDVAhUq_IMKHftODe4Q6AEIMDAC#v=onepage&amp;q=christian%20parallels&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.rochester.edu/college/translation/threepercent/index.php?id=3139&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://forms.camws.org/Abstracts2017/190.ReconstructingNonnos.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11387" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2831" RevisionGUID="fff2b226-b37f-412c-b5fc-1a138fe5f3b4" CreationDate="2017-08-11T23:57:08.883" UserId="4023" Text="The shift has to do with Hestia originally being one of the twelve; then when Dionysus became a god, she gave up her throne for Dionysus. Interestingly enough, this unbalanced the council; there were then 7 men and 5 women. These were&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Zeus&#xD;&#xA;* Hera&#xD;&#xA;* Ares&#xD;&#xA;* Athena&#xD;&#xA;* Apollo&#xD;&#xA;* Artemis&#xD;&#xA;* Dionysus&#xD;&#xA;* Poseidon&#xD;&#xA;* Aphrodite&#xD;&#xA;* Demeter&#xD;&#xA;* Hephaestus&#xD;&#xA;* Hermes&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These specifically were the main twelve for several reasons:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Seniority&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A couple were direct children of Kronos, namely Zeus, Poseidon, Hades, Hera, and Demeter (and Hestia, but she gave up her seat for Dionysus). This puts five on their seats fairly clearly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. Purpose&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The remaining gods were major in that they had governance over important things - Ares, god of war, Athena, goddess of war and wisdom, Hephaestus, god of blacksmithing, clever workmanship, and fire, Apollo, god of poetry, archery, sickness and healing, prophecy, and the sun (which he sometimes gave up to Helios, the Titan), Artemis, goddess of hunting, the moon (sometimes given up to Selene, the Titan), virginity/young women, children, and also archery, Dionysus, god of wine (wine was a lot more important back then because water was not safe to drink in most cases; therefore wine was more commonly consumed as the alcohol killed the germs/bacteria/gross stuff), Hermes, god of messengers, travelers, thievery, games of chance, cattle, and all that good stuff, and Aphrodite, goddess of love.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;No one put minor gods and goddesses on the council because they just weren't important enough. Could you imagine have the god of bee-keeping and cheese-making on the council (Aristaeus)?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And then there was Hades. The reason he (and Persephone his wife) weren't on the council was because they were kind of scary, and he just didn't visit Olympus much. He had his own realm to handle (the Underworld). " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11389" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2196" RevisionGUID="46b2bf5c-d22f-4a6c-9dc9-5fc34926c550" CreationDate="2017-08-12T12:55:40.373" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved grammar and added one link." Text="In Mitcham in South London, children often used to build &quot;grottoes&quot; out of pebbles, pieces of broken pottery, candles, and sometimes shells, flowers, or pieces of mirror. They would ask for &quot;a penny for the grotta&quot; (the local pronunciation) and would spend the money they collected at the [Mitcham Fair][1], known to date back to the early 18th century and which according to legend was first granted a charter by Queen Elizabeth I more than a century earlier. The building of grottoes continued until at least the 1980s.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is speculated that there may be a strong connection with St James, who is buried at the major pilgrimage site of Compostela in Galicia in Spain, and whose symbol is the shell, in particular the scallop shell found on the Galician shore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But how much credence should we give to this notion, bearing in mind that shellfish were a common food in London and also that St James's feast day is on 25 July whereas the fair itself was held on 12-14 August until 1924 and even today commences around 12 August each year?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.shadowtimepublishing.co.uk/mysteriousmitcham/grotto.shtml" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11390" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2196" RevisionGUID="46b2bf5c-d22f-4a6c-9dc9-5fc34926c550" CreationDate="2017-08-12T12:55:40.373" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved grammar and added one link." Text="Were the grottoes of the Mitcham Fair in South London really connected with the veneration of St James of Compostela?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11391" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2832" RevisionGUID="0eb87c56-5301-41b3-8e19-03766ef2666e" CreationDate="2017-08-12T16:32:48.373" UserId="1241" Text="It is true that the vast majority of solar eclipse folklore, myths and superstitions are looked upon in less than favorable light. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Throughout history, solar eclipses have been viewed with dread and associated with myths and superstitions. Even today, in the 21st century, some cultures consider them a bad omen.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is not completely surprising that the phenomenon has been such a source of fear. A total eclipse, especially, can be a disturbing experience - something that appears to undermine nature itself. - [UK solar eclipse 2015: Ancient myths and folklore surrounding the phenomenon][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But that said, it is possible to find some cultures that look upon an eclipse in a more favorable light. The most common one found on the web is the one that is mentioned in [Yannis' answer][2]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Italy, it is believed that flowers planted during a solar eclipse are brighter and more colorful than flowers planted any other time of the year. - [Janet’s Planet: Solar eclipses inspire myths, superstitions][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But why stop there. **The Old Farmer's Almanac** has the following tidbits to add on:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **A Solar Eclipse and Romance**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Many cultures thought that the Sun was in a fight with its lover, the Moon! Others found a different kind of romantic explanation.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; •To the Australian Aborigines, the Sun was seen as a woman who carries a torch. The Moon, by contrast, was regarded as male. Because of the association of the lunar cycle with the female menstrual cycle, the Moon was linked with fertility. A solar eclipse was interpreted as the Moon-man uniting with the Sun-woman.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; •In German mythology, the hot female Sun and cold male Moon were married. The Sun ruled the day, and the sleepy Moon ruled the night. Seeking companionship, the Moon was drawn to his bride and they came together—thus, a solar eclipse.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; •Some Native Americans drew on a similar concept: that a solar eclipse was a visit of companions.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; •West Africans of Benin switch the gender roles of the Sun and Moon and suggest that the orbs are very busy, but when they do get together, they turn off the light for privacy.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; •In Tahitian myth, the orbs are lovers who join up —providing an eclipse—but get lost in the moment and created stars to light their return to normalcy.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Eclipse as a Good Luck Charm**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eclipses did not incite fear in at least one group: Bohemia’s miners. They believed that the event portended good luck in finding gold. [- Solar Eclipse Folklore, Myths, and Superstitions][4] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Addendum**: There will be a total solar eclipse on [August 21, 2017][5] that will be seen in North America.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/solar-eclipse-2015-history-myths-8846426&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2829/1241&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://wkrn.com/2017/08/06/eclipse-expert-janet-ivey-solar-eclipse-inspires-myths-and-superstitions/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.almanac.com/content/solar-eclipse-folklore-myths-and-superstitions&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/map/2017-august-21" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11392" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2832" RevisionGUID="11710152-c2f7-457b-83dc-f55fd267d30e" CreationDate="2017-08-12T21:55:23.780" UserId="1241" Comment="Expanded answer." Text="It is true that the vast majority of solar eclipse folklore, myths and superstitions are looked upon in less than favorable light. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Throughout history, solar eclipses have been viewed with dread and associated with myths and superstitions. Even today, in the 21st century, some cultures consider them a bad omen.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is not completely surprising that the phenomenon has been such a source of fear. A total eclipse, especially, can be a disturbing experience - something that appears to undermine nature itself. - [UK solar eclipse 2015: Ancient myths and folklore surrounding the phenomenon][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But that said, it is possible to find some cultures that look upon an eclipse in a more favorable light. The most common one found on the web is the one that is mentioned in [Yannis' answer][2]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Italy, it is believed that flowers planted during a solar eclipse are brighter and more colorful than flowers planted any other time of the year. - [Janet’s Planet: Solar eclipses inspire myths, superstitions][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But why stop there. **The Old Farmer's Almanac** has the following tidbits to add on:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **A Solar Eclipse and Romance**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Many cultures thought that the Sun was in a fight with its lover, the Moon! Others found a different kind of romantic explanation.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; •To the Australian Aborigines, the Sun was seen as a woman who carries a torch. The Moon, by contrast, was regarded as male. Because of the association of the lunar cycle with the female menstrual cycle, the Moon was linked with fertility. A solar eclipse was interpreted as the Moon-man uniting with the Sun-woman.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; •In German mythology, the hot female Sun and cold male Moon were married. The Sun ruled the day, and the sleepy Moon ruled the night. Seeking companionship, the Moon was drawn to his bride and they came together—thus, a solar eclipse.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; •Some Native Americans drew on a similar concept: that a solar eclipse was a visit of companions.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; •West Africans of Benin switch the gender roles of the Sun and Moon and suggest that the orbs are very busy, but when they do get together, they turn off the light for privacy.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; •In Tahitian myth, the orbs are lovers who join up —providing an eclipse—but get lost in the moment and created stars to light their return to normalcy.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Eclipse as a Good Luck Charm**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eclipses did not incite fear in at least one group: Bohemia’s miners. They believed that the event portended good luck in finding gold. [- Solar Eclipse Folklore, Myths, and Superstitions][4] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not all of the folklore associated with eclipses are negative. One surrounds Herodotus, an ancient Greek scholar, and a battle in the 6th Century B.C. between the Medes and the Lydians, which was raging until a solar eclipse began, for the gods were displeased with the war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;. . . there was war between the Lydians and the Medes five years. . . . They were still warring with equal success, when it chanced, at an encounter which happened in the sixth year, that during the battle the day turned to night. Thales of Miletus had foretold this loss of daylight to the Ionians, fixing it within the year in which the change did indeed happen. So when the Lydians and Medes saw the day turned to night, they ceased from fighting, and both were the more zealous to make peace.&quot;  - [Eclipse Quotations - Part I][5] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Addendum**: There will be a total solar eclipse on [August 21, 2017][6] that will be seen in North America.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/solar-eclipse-2015-history-myths-8846426&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2829/1241&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://wkrn.com/2017/08/06/eclipse-expert-janet-ivey-solar-eclipse-inspires-myths-and-superstitions/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.almanac.com/content/solar-eclipse-folklore-myths-and-superstitions&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.mreclipse.com/Special/quotes1.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/map/2017-august-21" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11393" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2833" RevisionGUID="dc49855d-ed91-4d28-b944-cf5fd828bb4e" CreationDate="2017-08-13T12:39:54.310" UserId="4021" Text="In the Norse mythology, in what are the Norns writing the fate of the gods? Does it has a name?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11394" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2833" RevisionGUID="dc49855d-ed91-4d28-b944-cf5fd828bb4e" CreationDate="2017-08-13T12:39:54.310" UserId="4021" Text="What are the Norns writing on?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11395" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2833" RevisionGUID="dc49855d-ed91-4d28-b944-cf5fd828bb4e" CreationDate="2017-08-13T12:39:54.310" UserId="4021" Text="|norse|god-items|fates|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11397" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2834" RevisionGUID="d3e8f750-47c8-4281-a3f8-cc627be240c9" CreationDate="2017-08-13T13:07:50.353" UserId="2687" Text="In the song &quot;Something Just Like This,&quot; by Coldplay and the Chainsmokers, there's a line that says: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;I've been reading books of old&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The legends and the myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Achilles and his gold, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Hercules and his gifts. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FM7MFYoylVs&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I recall Achilles being associated with martial prowess and his famous heel, not gold. What does the song refer to? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11398" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2834" RevisionGUID="d3e8f750-47c8-4281-a3f8-cc627be240c9" CreationDate="2017-08-13T13:07:50.353" UserId="2687" Text="Achilles and his gold?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11399" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2834" RevisionGUID="d3e8f750-47c8-4281-a3f8-cc627be240c9" CreationDate="2017-08-13T13:07:50.353" UserId="2687" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11400" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2834" RevisionGUID="71826464-16c5-4277-8657-d171729ebadd" CreationDate="2017-08-13T13:13:55.610" UserId="2687" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="In the song [&quot;Something Just Like This,&quot;](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FM7MFYoylVs) by Coldplay and the Chainsmokers, there's a line that says: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;I've been reading books of old&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The legends and the myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Achilles and his gold, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Hercules and his gifts. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I recall Achilles being associated with martial prowess and his famous heel, not gold. What does the song refer to? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11401" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2835" RevisionGUID="5c62b4cf-ff63-4d3e-8da0-46d4df7941b5" CreationDate="2017-08-13T14:26:29.020" UserId="3989" Text="Achilles&amp;rsquo; best known and most important connection with *gold* is that he *rejects* the treasure, including ten talents of gold (δέκα δὲ χρυσοῖο τάλαντα, *Iliad* [9.122][1] &amp; [9.264][2]), that is offered by Agamemnon as a reward or bribe for rejoining the war effort. For he is in receipt of divine intelligence (from his mother Thetis, [9.410&amp;ndash;416][3]) that if he continues to fight at Troy he will die young, and his reward is to be immortal fame. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Provision for immortal fame involves, first, recognition from his peers, in the form of treasure-gifts, including spear-prize women, *awarded by the army collectively* ([1.162][4]) in recognition of meritorious service on the raids that bring in the treasure; after that, and prominently featuring that information, the hero can become a personage in heroic epic, which lasts forever. Agamemnon&amp;rsquo;s insulting revocation of the army&amp;rsquo;s gift of the woman has in effect broken the mechanism by which Achilles can hope for immortal fame. And as he himself points out, treasure itself cannot equally well be worth dying for, and cannot undo death:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Of possessions&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;cattle and fat sheep are things to be had for the lifting, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;and tripods can be won, and the tawny high heads of horses, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;but a man’s life cannot come back again, it cannot be lifted&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;nor captured again by force, once it has crossed the teeth’s barrier. ([9.406&amp;ndash;409][3], Lattimore trans.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D114&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D244&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D374&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D130" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11402" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2835" RevisionGUID="a1688ed4-982c-4661-a638-04341ea94437" CreationDate="2017-08-13T14:41:23.357" UserId="3989" Comment="added 374 characters in body" Text="Achilles&amp;rsquo; best known and most important connection with *gold* is that he *rejects* the treasure, including ten talents of gold (δέκα δὲ χρυσοῖο τάλαντα, *Iliad* [9.122][1] &amp; [9.264][2]), that is offered by Agamemnon as an inducement to rejoin the war effort. For he is in receipt of divine intelligence (from his mother Thetis, [9.410&amp;ndash;416][3]) that if he continues to fight at Troy he will die young, and his reward is to be immortal fame. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Provision for immortal fame involves, first, recognition from his peers, in the form of treasure-gifts, including spear-prize women, *awarded by the army collectively* ([1.162][4]) in recognition of meritorious service on the raids that bring in the treasure; after that, and prominently featuring that honorific information, the hero can become a personage in heroic epic, which lasts forever. Agamemnon&amp;rsquo;s insulting revocation of the army&amp;rsquo;s gift of the woman has in effect broken the mechanism by which Achilles can hope for immortal fame. And as he himself points out, treasure itself cannot equally well be worth dying for, and cannot undo death:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Of possessions&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;cattle and fat sheep are things to be had for the lifting, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;and tripods can be won, and the tawny high heads of horses, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;but a man’s life cannot come back again, it cannot be lifted&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;nor captured again by force, once it has crossed the teeth’s barrier. ([9.406&amp;ndash;409][3], Lattimore trans.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The association of Hercules with *gifts* also raises questions. The song elsewhere uses *gifts* in the sense of *talents* (in the modern sense of extraordinary god-given abilities, not as weight or mass unit), and presumably is using it in that sense also in relation to Hercules, who is not so much known for gifts, in the sense of presents, as, say, the Magi of Christian myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D114&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D244&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D374&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D130" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11403" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2835" RevisionGUID="bef11795-204d-4857-91ad-abfbcf84502f" CreationDate="2017-08-13T14:51:37.110" UserId="3989" Comment="added 168 characters in body" Text="Achilles&amp;rsquo; best known and most important connection with *gold* is that he *rejects* the treasure, including ten talents of gold (δέκα δὲ χρυσοῖο τάλαντα, *Iliad* [9.122][1] &amp; [9.264][2]), that is offered by Agamemnon as an inducement to rejoin the war effort. For he is in receipt of divine intelligence (from his mother Thetis, [9.410&amp;ndash;416][3]) that if he continues to fight at Troy he will die young, and his reward is to be immortal fame. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Provision for immortal fame involves, first, recognition from his peers, in the form of treasure-gifts, including spear-prize women, *awarded by the army collectively* ([1.162][4]) in recognition of meritorious service on the raids that bring in the treasure; after that, and prominently featuring that honorific information, the hero can become a personage in heroic epic, which lasts forever. Agamemnon&amp;rsquo;s insulting revocation of the army&amp;rsquo;s gift of the woman has in effect broken the mechanism by which Achilles can hope for immortal fame. And as he himself points out, treasure itself cannot equally well be worth dying for, and cannot undo death:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Of possessions&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;cattle and fat sheep are things to be had for the lifting, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;and tripods can be won, and the tawny high heads of horses, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;but a man’s life cannot come back again, it cannot be lifted&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;nor captured again by force, once it has crossed the teeth’s barrier. ([9.406&amp;ndash;409][3], Lattimore trans.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The association of Hercules with *gifts* also raises questions. The song elsewhere uses *gifts* in the sense of *talents* (in the modern sense of extraordinary god-given abilities, not as weight or mass unit), and presumably is using it in that sense also in relation to Hercules, who is not so much known for gifts, in the sense of *presents,* as (say) the Magi of Christian myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But these readings of both lines may be too charitable in attributing knowledge of myth to an electropop lyricist who apparently thinks *myths* rhymes with *gifts.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D114&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D244&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D374&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D130" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11404" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2835" RevisionGUID="f0356543-6a06-40ce-b595-937faab10e9f" CreationDate="2017-08-13T14:57:59.420" UserId="3989" Comment="added 5 characters in body" Text="Achilles&amp;rsquo; best known and most important connection with *gold* is that he *rejects* the treasure, including ten talents of gold (δέκα δὲ χρυσοῖο τάλαντα, *Iliad* [9.122][1] &amp; [9.264][2]), that is offered by Agamemnon as an inducement to rejoin the war effort. For he is in receipt of divine intelligence (from his mother Thetis, [9.410&amp;ndash;416][3]) that if he continues to fight at Troy he will die young, and his reward is to be immortal fame. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Provision for immortal fame involves, first, recognition from his peers, in the form of treasure-gifts, including spear-prize women, *awarded by the army collectively* ([1.162][4]) in recognition of meritorious service on the raids that bring in the treasure; after that, and prominently featuring that honorific information, the hero can become a personage in heroic epic, which lasts forever. Agamemnon&amp;rsquo;s insulting revocation of the army&amp;rsquo;s gift of the woman has in effect broken the mechanism by which Achilles can hope for immortal fame. And as he himself points out, treasure itself cannot equally well be worth dying for, and cannot undo death:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Of possessions&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;cattle and fat sheep are things to be had for the lifting, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;and tripods can be won, and the tawny high heads of horses, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;but a man’s life cannot come back again, it cannot be lifted&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;nor captured again by force, once it has crossed the teeth’s barrier. ([9.406&amp;ndash;409][3], Lattimore trans.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The association of Hercules with *gifts* also raises questions. The song elsewhere uses *gifts* in the sense of *talents* (in the modern sense of extraordinary god-given abilities, not as weight or mass unit), and presumably is using it in that sense also in relation to Hercules&amp;mdash;who is not so much known for gifts, in the sense of *presents,* as (say) the Magi of Christian myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But these readings of both lines may be too charitable in attributing knowledge of myth to an electropop lyricist who apparently thinks *myths* rhymes with *gifts.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D114&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D244&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D374&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D130" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11405" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2835" RevisionGUID="2cb50bcb-5fbd-49a8-a3c0-0d93fb3022d8" CreationDate="2017-08-13T15:08:24.997" UserId="3989" Comment="added 397 characters in body" Text="One of Achilles&amp;rsquo; best known and most important connections with *gold* is that he *rejects* the treasure, including ten talents of gold (δέκα δὲ χρυσοῖο τάλαντα, *Iliad* [9.122][1] &amp; [9.264][2]), that is offered by Agamemnon as an inducement to rejoin the war effort. For he is in receipt of divine intelligence (from his mother Thetis, [9.410&amp;ndash;416][3]) that if he continues to fight at Troy he will die young, and his reward is to be immortal fame. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Provision for immortal fame involves, first, recognition from his peers, in the form of treasure-gifts, including spear-prize women, *awarded by the army collectively* ([1.162][4]) in recognition of meritorious service on the raids that bring in the treasure; after that, and prominently featuring that honorific information, the hero can become a personage in heroic epic, which lasts forever. Agamemnon&amp;rsquo;s insulting revocation of the army&amp;rsquo;s gift of the woman has in effect broken the mechanism by which Achilles can hope for immortal fame. And as he himself points out, treasure itself cannot equally well be worth dying for, and cannot undo death:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Of possessions&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;cattle and fat sheep are things to be had for the lifting, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;and tripods can be won, and the tawny high heads of horses, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;but a man’s life cannot come back again, it cannot be lifted&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;nor captured again by force, once it has crossed the teeth’s barrier. ([9.406&amp;ndash;409][3], Lattimore trans.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another connection is the famous armor, particularly the shield, created for Achilles by Hephaestus at *Iliad* [18.478][5]–607. Materials for the shield include bronze, tin, and silver as well, but the figuration or blazonry that dominates the passage prominently features gold.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The association of Hercules with *gifts* also raises questions. The song elsewhere uses *gifts* in the sense of *talents* (in the modern sense of extraordinary god-given abilities, not as weight or mass unit), and presumably is using it in that sense also in relation to Hercules&amp;mdash;who is not so much known for gifts, in the sense of *presents,* as (say) the Magi of Christian myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But these readings of both lines may be too charitable in attributing knowledge of myth to an electropop lyricist who apparently thinks *myths* rhymes with *gifts.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D114&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D244&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D374&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D130&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D18%3Acard%3D462" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11406" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2836" RevisionGUID="492b4903-1f4c-4e98-9ade-410c531be968" CreationDate="2017-08-13T16:52:05.597" UserId="292" Text="If you mean some sort of book, there doesn't appear to be anything of the kind. However...  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;In the poem *Voluspa*, the Norns do write, or at least carve on wood (verse 20).&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; From there came three maidens, knowing much   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; three from the lake that stands under the tree   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Destiny they called one, Becoming the second -  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; they carved on wood tablets - Shall-be the third;   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; laws they laid down, lives they chose  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; for the children of mankind, the fates of men.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Orchard's trans.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It varies with the translation, but Larrington has &quot;carved on wooden slips&quot;, Hollander has &quot;they scores did cut&quot; and the version at [Sacred Texts][1] has &quot;wood they scored&quot;. So it's probaby closer to runic inscriptions or some [form of divination][2]. &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;In the later *Prose Edda*, which follows the earlier version pretty closely, Snorri Sturluson only says that the Norns &quot;shape&quot; or &quot;determine&quot; fate, without stating how. So it may be that there were different ideas about exactly how the Norns laid down fate.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;If this is something that really interests you, you can find Karen Bek-Pedersen's book on the Norns at [Questia][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe03.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://elfinspell.com/TacitusGermany2.html#refch10&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.questia.com/library/120085799/the-norns-in-old-norse-mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11407" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2837" RevisionGUID="6664c738-1288-4cb4-ba6b-07dfdc64abdd" CreationDate="2017-08-13T18:13:40.040" UserId="4063" Text="&quot;What does the song refer to?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It refers to the lyricist's lack of knowledge &amp; unfamiliarity with classical Greek mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I looked up the whole lyrics the whole verse is this &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;I've been reading books of old&#xD;&#xA;The legends and the myths/ &#xD;&#xA;Achilles and his gold/ &#xD;&#xA;Hercules and his gifts/ &#xD;&#xA;Spiderman's control/ &#xD;&#xA;And Batman with his fists/ &#xD;&#xA;And clearly I don't see myself upon that list&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The intent of the verse is clear, the writer doesn't see himself as heroic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But it also demonstrates unfamiliarity with the characters mentioned.&#xD;&#xA;What is &quot;Spiderman's control&quot; supposed to mean? Does the writer mean Spidey's agility, i.e. acrobatical control over his body? Or did the writer mean &quot;self control&quot; over emotions? The latter is not something the Spiderman character is known for.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And &quot;Batman with his fists&quot;, while Batman is known for martial arts skills, he's much more closely associated with his detective skills &amp; inventive gadgets.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Hercules and his gifts&quot; is vague &amp; generalized.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a later verse the writer says &quot;Superman unrolls/ A suit before he lifts&quot;&#xD;&#xA;Which doesn't really make much sense either.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what I think it means overall, is that the writer sat down &amp; said &quot;I want to write about not being heroic, &amp; if I name some popular hero characters it will make the song more popular&quot; then he looked up some names of popular heroic characters &amp; put them in the song without really studying much about them at all.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11408" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2838" RevisionGUID="f717cdf9-400e-4333-9f2a-9ac52b01b93e" CreationDate="2017-08-13T19:02:50.667" UserId="4064" Text="No. &#xD;&#xA;The original myths are based more on ideas of &quot;divine magic&quot; as an explanation for the existence of various characters, rather than scientific logic as we know it today.&#xD;&#xA;So the explanation for Talos, to the ancient Greek reader, would have been that he was a bronze statue endowed by the gods with a living soul &amp; they would have considered him a man, but with a body of bronze instead of flesh, &amp; not a machine at all.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The idea of Talos as a machine, intelligent or otherwise, is a only modern one, influenced by modern scientific logic &amp; inventions, as well as pop culture depictions of &quot;robots&quot;, &quot;cyborgs&quot;, etc." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11410" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2839" RevisionGUID="5d0a9a58-78d3-4d29-bf8e-550f3798998d" CreationDate="2017-08-13T20:32:59.037" UserId="666" Text="Not really.&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First, we should really note that &quot;fate&quot; is very strongly associated with female, collective deities in Norse mythology: the Norns, the Valkyries and the Dísir all are connected with fate somehow. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the other hand, we don't really know much of what kind of god Hoenir was. He does appear as a companion of Odin when the first humans where created, he was with Odin and Loki on the journeys that are backstories to the legend of Sigurd, and of Hrungnir's kidnapping of Idunn. He was also one of the gods the Aesir sent as hostage to the Vanir at the end of their war, and was said to have been seen as a great chieftain, except that he relied entirely on the advice of Mimir.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there is also a passage in *Völupsa* which might connect Hoenir with a new fate. Verse 61 (or 63, it seems to vary between translation) takes place after Ragnarök, when a new world has arisen, and starts with two lines which seem very difficult to translate:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Þá kná Hænir&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hlautvið kjósa&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some translations I've seen:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Then can Hoenir&lt;br&gt; choose his lot&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Then Hönir wins | the prophetic wand&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gro Steinsland instead suggests that he plants a new world tree. Anyway, it seems more connected with prophesy than actually embodying fate.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So Hoenir is really a very shadowy god, but there is really nothing that explicitly connect him with fate.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;I've checked Gro Steinsland *Fornnordisk religion*. I've also checked Lars Lönnroth's translation of the *Poetic edda*, and some translations in English: [1][1], [2][2], [3][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14726/14726-h/14726-h.htm#VOLUSPA_THE_VALAS_PROPHECY&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe03.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda/V%C3%B6lusp%C3%A1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11412" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2840" RevisionGUID="d3423826-633a-410f-a7b9-1b7e835118e3" CreationDate="2017-08-14T16:20:44.470" UserId="4067" Text="I know he's a famous children's writer and an Oxford academic who has rewritten a number of introductory books to Greek myths and other mythological works such as the Tale of Troy and King Arthur and His Knights of the Round Table. However, I have found his writing style quite confusing, which surprises me because I suppose it is a children's writer's duty to write clearly. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Recently, I am reading his book, Tales of the Greek Heroes. Oftentimes it seems to me quite hard to deconstruct his sentences to understand his exact meaning. I find his punctuations and convoluted sentence structures quite frustrating. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Two examples from the first chapter of the book, which you can read here at this link :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Over the blue sea, with its streaks like purple wine, lie islands dotted away into the distance: and they too have each a tale to tell. It may be Delos, perhaps: no one lives on it now, but the ruins of cities and temples, harbours and theatres, cluster from the shore to the hilltop on which Apollo the Shining One and his sister Artemis the Maiden Huntress were born. Or it may be rocky rugged Ithaca, from which Odysseus sailed to the siege of Troy, and found again after ten years' wandering over strange and dragon-haunted seas.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Problems:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1) Referencing problem: The word &quot;it&quot; has been used twice in this passage but it is not clear what &quot;it&quot; refers to. Perhaps the author meant &quot;One of the islands&quot;? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2) Unclear meaning: In the sentence, &quot;Or it may be rocky rugged Ithaca, from which Odysseus sailed to the siege of Troy, and found again after ten years' wandering over strange and dragon-haunted seas.&quot;, I am not so sure what the phrase &quot;found again after ten years' wandering over strange and dragon-haunted seas&quot; means. Does it mean that Odysseus found Ithaca again after ten years' wandering?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;The Greeks called these Immortals the 'Gods', and worshipped them, making sacrifices to them at their particular shrines: Zeus at Olympia, Apollo at Delphi, Athena at Athens, and so on. When they began to tell the stories about them they had very little idea of what gods should be, and quite naturally pictured them as very like themselves, but much more powerful, more beautiful, and more free. Nor did it seem wrong to them to imagine that gods and goddesses could be cruel, or mean, deceitful, selfish, jealous, or even wicked, according to our ideas, and as they themselves would have thought if ordinary men and women had done as the gods did.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Problem: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am not sure what the phrase &quot;as they themselves would have thought if ordinary men and women had done as the gods did&quot; means. Does he mean that ancient Greeks thought it right to imagine that gods and goddesses could be as they themselves would have thought if ordinary men and women had done as the gods did? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This seems to be the compelling interpretation but the reasoning of this sentence seems circular to me. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it just me or is Green's writing style problematic? Please help. Thanks a lot in advance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11413" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2840" RevisionGUID="d3423826-633a-410f-a7b9-1b7e835118e3" CreationDate="2017-08-14T16:20:44.470" UserId="4067" Text="What do people think about Roger Lancelyn Green's writing?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11414" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2840" RevisionGUID="d3423826-633a-410f-a7b9-1b7e835118e3" CreationDate="2017-08-14T16:20:44.470" UserId="4067" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11415" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2835" RevisionGUID="cae85a4b-6374-4218-9534-47edaa723846" CreationDate="2017-08-14T18:17:44.410" UserId="3989" Comment="deleted 155 characters in body" Text="One of Achilles&amp;rsquo; best known and most important connections with *gold* is that he *rejects* the treasure, including ten talents of gold (δέκα δὲ χρυσοῖο τάλαντα, *Iliad* [9.122][1] &amp; [9.264][2]), that is offered by Agamemnon as an inducement to rejoin the war effort. For he is in receipt of divine intelligence (from his mother Thetis, [9.410&amp;ndash;416][3]) that if he continues to fight at Troy he will die young, and his reward is to be immortal fame. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Provision for immortal fame involves, first, recognition from his peers, in the form of treasure-gifts, including spear-prize women, *awarded by the army collectively* ([1.162][4]) in recognition of meritorious service on the raids that bring in the treasure. After that, and in some measure depending on such signal honors, the hero can become a personage in heroic epic, which lasts forever. Agamemnon&amp;rsquo;s insulting and autocratic revocation of the army&amp;rsquo;s award of the woman has in effect broken the mechanism by which Achilles can hope for immortal fame. And as he himself points out, treasure itself cannot equally well be worth dying for, and cannot undo death:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Of possessions&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;cattle and fat sheep are things to be had for the lifting, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;and tripods can be won, and the tawny high heads of horses, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;but a man’s life cannot come back again, it cannot be lifted&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;nor captured again by force, once it has crossed the teeth’s barrier. ([9.406&amp;ndash;409][3], Lattimore trans.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another connection is the famous armor, particularly the shield, created for Achilles by Hephaestus at *Iliad* [18.478][5]–607. Materials for the shield include bronze, tin, and silver as well, but the figuration or blazonry that dominates the passage prominently features gold.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The association of Hercules with *gifts* also raises questions. The song elsewhere uses *gifts* in the sense of *talents* (in the modern sense of extraordinary god-given abilities, not as weight or mass unit), and presumably is using it in that sense also in relation to Hercules&amp;mdash;who is not so much known for gifts, in the sense of *presents,* as (say) the Magi of Christian myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D114&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D244&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D374&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D130&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D18%3Acard%3D462" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11416" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2840" RevisionGUID="41ada707-f853-4dba-bf5b-76a9f7c8c816" CreationDate="2017-08-14T18:41:58.733" UserId="4067" Comment="improved formatting" Text="I know he's a famous children's writer and an Oxford academic who has rewritten a number of introductory books to Greek myths and other mythological works such as the Tale of Troy and King Arthur and His Knights of the Round Table. However, I have found his writing style quite confusing, which surprises me because I suppose it is a children's writer's duty to write clearly. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Recently, I am reading his book, Tales of the Greek Heroes. Oftentimes it seems to me quite hard to deconstruct his sentences to understand his exact meaning. I find his punctuations and convoluted sentence structures quite frustrating. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Two examples from the first chapter of the book, which you can read here at [this link][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Over the blue sea, with its streaks like purple wine, lie islands&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dotted away into the distance: and they too have each a tale to tell.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It may be Delos, perhaps: no one lives on it now, but the ruins of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cities and temples, harbours and theatres, cluster from the shore to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the hilltop on which Apollo the Shining One and his sister Artemis the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Maiden Huntress were born. Or it may be rocky rugged Ithaca, from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which Odysseus sailed to the siege of Troy, and found again after ten&#xD;&#xA;&gt; years' wandering over strange and dragon-haunted seas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Problems:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. *Referencing problem*: The word &quot;it&quot; has been used twice in this passage but it is not clear what &quot;it&quot; refers to. Perhaps the author meant &quot;One of the islands&quot;?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 2. *Unclear meaning*: In the sentence, &quot;Or it may be rocky rugged Ithaca, from which Odysseus sailed to the siege of Troy, and found again after ten years' wandering over strange and dragon-haunted seas.&quot;, I am not so sure what the phrase &quot;found again after ten years' wandering over strange and dragon-haunted seas&quot; means. Does it mean that Odysseus found Ithaca again after ten years' wandering?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Greeks called these Immortals the 'Gods', and worshipped them,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; making sacrifices to them at their particular shrines: Zeus at&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Olympia, Apollo at Delphi, Athena at Athens, and so on. When they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; began to tell the stories about them they had very little idea of what&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gods should be, and quite naturally pictured them as very like&#xD;&#xA;&gt; themselves, but much more powerful, more beautiful, and more free. Nor&#xD;&#xA;&gt; did it seem wrong to them to imagine that gods and goddesses could be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cruel, or mean, deceitful, selfish, jealous, or even wicked, according&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to our ideas, and as they themselves would have thought if ordinary&#xD;&#xA;&gt; men and women had done as the gods did.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Problem:** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. I am not sure what the phrase &quot;as they themselves would have thought if ordinary men and women had done as the gods did&quot; means. Does he mean that ancient Greeks thought it right to imagine that gods and goddesses could be as they themselves would have thought if ordinary men and women had done as the gods did? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This seems to be the compelling interpretation but the reasoning of this sentence seems circular to me. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it just me or is Green's writing style problematic? Please help. Thanks a lot in advance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com.hk/books?id=bNMmH8CKveUC&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;dq=puffin%20classics%20tales%20of%20the%20greek%20heroes&amp;hl=en" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11418" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2841" RevisionGUID="238b2eed-9b2d-4839-adea-82d19ab69928" CreationDate="2017-08-14T20:13:25.250" UserId="2892" Text="Part I:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. He is indeed referring to the islands, &quot;and they too have each a tale to tell&quot;, using a degree of anthropomorphism, consistent with Greek and Roman mythology, but not applied to geographical locations in the traditional canon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. You are correct.  10 years cycles seem to be quite important.  The war at Troy was said to have lasted 10 years, and Odysseus was said to have wandered for 10 years before finally returning to his home at Ithaca.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Part II:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is partly, but not exclusively, in reference to the Iliad, which has many subversive elements.  Foremost is the diminishing of the dignity of the gods and elevating the dignity of man.  In many polytheistic religions, gods and goddess are analogues of humans, in both form a behavior.  (Contrast to the dignity of the gods in the newer religions such as Christianity or Buddhism.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. He is indeed referring to the behavior of the Greek gods and goddesses which is often undignified, and even in some instances, foolish, just like the behavior of people. It's an ungainly sentence, but he's also drawing a link between human thought and reasoning and that of the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Athena is wise, but Socrates may be wiser still!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11419" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2833" RevisionGUID="b51d0bd4-6044-4eb8-a088-500217b6eefc" CreationDate="2017-08-14T21:54:31.593" UserId="2892" Comment="edited slightly to clarify" Text=" - In the Norse mythology, the Norns writing the fate of the gods, but what are they writing it on? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, the Greek Fates weave destiny on a loom. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11420" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2833" RevisionGUID="b51d0bd4-6044-4eb8-a088-500217b6eefc" CreationDate="2017-08-14T21:54:31.593" UserId="2892" Comment="edited slightly to clarify" Text="What information medium are the Norns writing on?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11422" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2842" RevisionGUID="ebef7ff0-843e-4926-8578-1e5832fb9524" CreationDate="2017-08-15T00:11:12.183" UserId="2682" Text="**He was exiled from Athens and ended up on Skyros [Scyros] Island where he died falling off a high cliff, apparently murdered.** *His adventures sort of continue, to some extent, long after his death.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going back in time to when Theseus’ father Aigeus [Aegeus] was still alive, Apollodorus tells us of a version of the story in which Aigeus’ father is not Pandion, who was King of Athens before Aigeus, but Skyrios [Scyrius], from whom the island of Skyros received its name. Either Pandion, for some reason, passed Aigeus off as his own son and made him his successor to the throne, or this was merely a malicious story cooked up by Aigeus’ jealous brothers in order to attempt to rob him of his legitimate claim to the throne. Whatever the case, Aigeus inherited estates on Skyros Island from someone, possibly Skyrios. We’ll come back to that.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Before his descent into the realm of the dead, Theseus had taken possession of the (underage) Lakedaimonian princess Helen, whom he left in the care of his mother Aithra [Aethra] in his kingdom of Attika [Attica], whose capital was Athens. While Theseus was trapped in the Underworld, Helen’s twin brothers Kastor [Castor] and Polydeukes [Polydeuces] came with an army to Attika in search of their little sister. After sacking the town where Helen was being housed, they retrieved the princess and took Aithra as a slave, making her into Helen’s maidservant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Menestheus, a second cousin of Aigeus (if Aigeus really was a son of Pandion), was in Attika at the time of the attack of the Tyndaridai, “Sons of Tyndareus,” as Kastor and Polydeukes were popularly called. In fear for the complete destruction of Athens by the twins, Menestheus persuaded the city’s people to openly welcome the brothers back into Athens as their benefactors and deliverers. The Tyndaridai did no harm to anyone from there on out and rewarded Menestheus for his support by putting him on the throne of Attika and thereafter leaving the kingdom in peace.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Theseus then returned from his Underworld misadventure and was summarily exiled from Attika. He got a chance to make arrangements to send his two young sons Akamas [Acamas] and Demphoön to Euboia [Euboea] Island to be looked after over there by his friend King Elephenor of the Abantes. Theseus himself, meanwhile, set sail for Crete Island, whose king Deukalion [Deucalion] was his brother-in-law (Deukalion's sister Phaidra, now dead, was the mother of Akamas and Demphoön). Blown off course by the winds, Theseus landed, instead, on Skyros Island.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The version of the story supplied by Plutarch has it that Theseus was simply, and deliberately, heading for asylum on Skyros because, through his father Aigeus, he had ancestral estates at this location. Pausanias is the one who provides us with the account in which Theseus was on his way to Crete when he ended up, accidentally, on Skyros. In the latter case “he was treated with marked honour by the inhabitants, both for the fame of his family and for the reputation of his own achievements.” Either way Theseus died on this island, in both accounts having been murdered by Lykomedes [Lycomedes], the king of the Dolopes who lived on Skyros, although in Plutarch there is an attempt to vindicate Lykomedes by offering an alternate ending to the story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pausanias offers no details about the death beyond saying that it was contrived by Lykomedes because of Theseus’ positive reception by the islanders of Skyros. Plutarch implies that Theseus mistakenly assumed that the people of Skyros were his friends, on top of which he had the advantage of a claim to territory over there. Upon his expulsion from Attika, Theseus applied to King Lykomedes a request for his lands to be restored to him, although it is also said, Plutarch tells us, that Theseus asked for Lykomedes’ help against those who had exiled him from Athens. Either Lykomedes was fearful of Theseus’ renown or he was incidentally more favourable to Menestheus, and so, on pretence of showing Theseus the requested estates from an elevated vantage point, he shoved the Athenian exile off a cliff, thus killing him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Some, however, say that he slipped and fell down of himself while&#xD;&#xA;&gt; walking there after supper, as was his custom. At the time, no one&#xD;&#xA;&gt; made any account of his death, but Menestheus reigned as king at&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Athens, while the sons of Theseus, as men of private station,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; accompanied Elephenor on the expedition to Ilion [*i.e. the Trojan War,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which broke out a few decades after Theseus’ death*].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Menestheus led the Athenian forces against Troy and after the war ended he never made it back to Attika, instead landing on Melos Island to become its king there, where he later died. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The cause of the war was that the Trojan prince Paris had abducted or seduced Helen, who by this point had become Queen of Lakedaimon. Ironically it was Akamas who, together with Diomedes, was sent on an ambassadorial mission to Troy to attempt to get Helen back peacefully. The mission failed and Greece ended up going to war against Troy. The more famous account of the embassy, in the *Iliad*, ascribes the failed embassy to Helen’s husband Menelaus and to Odysseus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As Helen was finally being restored to Menelaus at the end of the war, Akamas and Demophoön were able to retrieve their grandmother Aithra from servitude. They took her back to Athens where they recovered their father’s throne, now that Menestheus was gone for good.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roughly seven hundred years later, in 490 BC, when the Persians attacked the Attikan city of Marathon, some of the gods, including Pan, Athena and Herakles, are said to have aided the Greeks against the “barbarians,” so that, under the leadership of General Militiades, the Greeks won the Battle of Marathon. One of the phenomena reported from the battle is that Theseus was seen fully armed leading the charge against the Persians. How they recognised him doesn’t seem to be explained but it was understood that his shade rose up out of the Underworld in order to assist his fellow citizens in hand-to-hand combat. For this service, Theseus was worshipped as a *hemitheos*, “half-*theos*” or “demigod.” &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;25 years after *that*, Miltiades’ son Kimon [Cimon], who was also an army general, ravaged Skyros. Pausanias interprets this as revenge for Theseus’ death, after which achievement Kimon carried Theseus’ bones back with him to Athens. At the end of his *Life of Theseus*, Plutarch elaborates on this further, saying that: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [I]n the Archonship of Phaidon, when the Athenians were consulting the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; oracle at Delphi, they were told by the Pythian priestess to take up&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the bones of Theseus, give them honourable burial at Athens, and guard&#xD;&#xA;&gt; them there. But it was difficult to find the grave and take up the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bones, because of the inhospitable and savage nature of the Dolopes,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; who then inhabited the island [*at least since the time of their king&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lykomedes*]. However, Kimon took the island … and being ambitious to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; discover the grave of Theseus, saw an eagle in a place where there was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the semblance of a mound, pecking, as they say, and tearing up the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ground with his talons. By some divine ordering he comprehended the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; meaning of this and dug there, and there was found a coffin of a man&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of extraordinary size, a bronze spear lying by its side, and a sword.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When these relics were brought home on his trireme by Kimon, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Athenians were delighted, and received them with splendid processions&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and sacrifices, as though Theseus himself were returning to his city.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And now he lies buried in the heart of the city, near the present&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *gymnasion* [gymnasium] and his tomb is a sanctuary and place of refuge&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for runaway slaves and all men of low estate who are afraid of men in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; power, since Theseus was a champion and helper of such during his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; life, and graciously received the supplications of the poor and needy.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The chief sacrifice which the Athenians make in his honour comes on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the eighth day of the month Pyanepsion, the day on which he came back&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from Crete with the youths. But they honour him also on the eighth day&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the other months, either because he came to Athens in the first&#xD;&#xA;&gt; place, from Troizenos [Troezen], on the eighth day of the month&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hekatombaionos, as Diodoros the Topographer states, or because they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; consider this number more appropriate for him than any other since he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was said to be a son of Poseidon. For they pay honours to Poseidon on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the eighth day of every month. The number eight, as the first cube of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; an even number and the double of the first square, fitly represents&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the steadfast and immovable power of this god, to whom we give the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; epithets of Asphaleios&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; and Gaieokhos.&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. William Smith’s 1886 Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology says of this epithet that it describes Poseidon “as the god who grants safety to ports and to navigation in general.”&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. “*Holder/Embracer/Encircler of Gaia [Earth]*,” translated as “Earth-Stayer” in Bernadotte Perrin’s 1914 translation of Plutarch’s *Lives*.&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11425" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2833" RevisionGUID="d765d605-479c-4aa9-8ea7-0e09c93d88b3" CreationDate="2017-08-15T09:38:25.837" UserId="4021" Comment="added 31 characters in body" Text="In the Norse mythology, the Norns writing the fate of the gods, but what are they writing it on? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, the Greek Fates weave destiny on a loom. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If so, Does it have a name?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11427" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2840" RevisionGUID="843dc0c9-cffe-4d1b-9254-f613ac5a960a" CreationDate="2017-08-15T21:19:51.123" UserId="2892" Comment="Changed the heading to make it not sound so opinion based.  It's a valid and useful question, just difficult to frame" Text="I know he's a famous children's writer and an Oxford academic who has rewritten a number of introductory books to Greek myths and other mythological works such as the Tale of Troy and King Arthur and His Knights of the Round Table. However, I have found his writing style quite confusing, which surprises me because I suppose it is a children's writer's duty to write clearly. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Recently, I am reading his book, Tales of the Greek Heroes. Oftentimes it seems to me quite hard to deconstruct his sentences to understand his exact meaning. I find his punctuations and convoluted sentence structures quite frustrating. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Two examples from the first chapter of the book, which you can read here at [this link][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Over the blue sea, with its streaks like purple wine, lie islands&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dotted away into the distance: and they too have each a tale to tell.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It may be Delos, perhaps: no one lives on it now, but the ruins of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cities and temples, harbours and theatres, cluster from the shore to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the hilltop on which Apollo the Shining One and his sister Artemis the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Maiden Huntress were born. Or it may be rocky rugged Ithaca, from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which Odysseus sailed to the siege of Troy, and found again after ten&#xD;&#xA;&gt; years' wandering over strange and dragon-haunted seas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Problems:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. *Referencing problem*: The word &quot;it&quot; has been used twice in this passage but it is not clear what &quot;it&quot; refers to. Perhaps the author meant &quot;One of the islands&quot;?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 2. *Unclear meaning*: In the sentence, &quot;Or it may be rocky rugged Ithaca, from which Odysseus sailed to the siege of Troy, and found again after ten years' wandering over strange and dragon-haunted seas.&quot;, I am not so sure what the phrase &quot;found again after ten years' wandering over strange and dragon-haunted seas&quot; means. Does it mean that Odysseus found Ithaca again after ten years' wandering?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Greeks called these Immortals the 'Gods', and worshipped them,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; making sacrifices to them at their particular shrines: Zeus at&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Olympia, Apollo at Delphi, Athena at Athens, and so on. When they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; began to tell the stories about them they had very little idea of what&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gods should be, and quite naturally pictured them as very like&#xD;&#xA;&gt; themselves, but much more powerful, more beautiful, and more free. Nor&#xD;&#xA;&gt; did it seem wrong to them to imagine that gods and goddesses could be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cruel, or mean, deceitful, selfish, jealous, or even wicked, according&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to our ideas, and as they themselves would have thought if ordinary&#xD;&#xA;&gt; men and women had done as the gods did.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Problem:** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. I am not sure what the phrase &quot;as they themselves would have thought if ordinary men and women had done as the gods did&quot; means. Does he mean that ancient Greeks thought it right to imagine that gods and goddesses could be as they themselves would have thought if ordinary men and women had done as the gods did? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This seems to be the compelling interpretation but the reasoning of this sentence seems circular to me. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it just me or is Green's writing style problematic? Please help. Thanks a lot in advance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com.hk/books?id=bNMmH8CKveUC&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;dq=puffin%20classics%20tales%20of%20the%20greek%20heroes&amp;hl=en" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11428" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2840" RevisionGUID="843dc0c9-cffe-4d1b-9254-f613ac5a960a" CreationDate="2017-08-15T21:19:51.123" UserId="2892" Comment="Changed the heading to make it not sound so opinion based.  It's a valid and useful question, just difficult to frame" Text="How to interpret Roger Lancelyn Green's writing on mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11429" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2843" RevisionGUID="7665117f-4bc8-437c-aac4-8a972178fafe" CreationDate="2017-08-16T17:32:06.390" UserId="4075" Text="While Thoth is often equated with Hermes, he seems to be more of a keeper of secret wisdom than a messanger.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any such figure in Egyptian mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11430" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2843" RevisionGUID="7665117f-4bc8-437c-aac4-8a972178fafe" CreationDate="2017-08-16T17:32:06.390" UserId="4075" Text="Is there a 'Messanger of the Gods' figure in Egyptian mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11431" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2843" RevisionGUID="7665117f-4bc8-437c-aac4-8a972178fafe" CreationDate="2017-08-16T17:32:06.390" UserId="4075" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11432" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2843" RevisionGUID="625db30e-b2ea-4e7d-ab0a-f9bf19765f5c" CreationDate="2017-08-17T10:00:08.297" UserId="1317" Comment="Fix Spelling" Text="While Thoth is often equated with Hermes, he seems to be more of a keeper of secret wisdom than a messenger.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any such figure in Egyptian mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11433" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2843" RevisionGUID="625db30e-b2ea-4e7d-ab0a-f9bf19765f5c" CreationDate="2017-08-17T10:00:08.297" UserId="1317" Comment="Fix Spelling" Text="Is there a 'Messenger of the Gods' figure in Egyptian mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11434" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2843" RevisionGUID="625db30e-b2ea-4e7d-ab0a-f9bf19765f5c" CreationDate="2017-08-17T10:00:08.297" Comment="Proposed by 1317 approved by 2774, 108 edit id of 456" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11435" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2844" RevisionGUID="439dbd73-7ff7-48f7-b8d1-33eb9eae197f" CreationDate="2017-08-17T11:23:44.890" UserId="108" Text="Other than the little known Apt, arguably the closest direct Egyptian analog to Hermes would be the synthetic deity [Hermanubis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermanubis). Who is, as you might guess from the name, the result of combining of Anubis and Hermes. He only emerged in [Ptolemaic Egypt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemaic_Kingdom) however, so a little on the late side of ancient mythologies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The combination was rooted in the role of Anubis as the conductor of souls, a trait he shares with Hermes. However Anubis was also the messenger of Osiris in the Book of the Dead, and, according to [E. A. Wallis Budge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._A._Wallis_Budge), the &quot;chief envoy of Ra&quot;. The ancient writer [Apuleius](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apuleius) likewise calls Anubis the messenger of gods, although that's probably the Roman projecting attributes from Mercury or Hermes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Budge, A. E. W. *The Papyrus of Ani: The Theban Recension of the Book of the Dead.* The Medici Society, London 1913." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11436" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2845" RevisionGUID="e4db8ba8-4d4c-477d-a6ca-30b9b231ca21" CreationDate="2017-08-18T17:59:15.940" UserId="2892" Text="It seems like a weird choice for a [draft][1] animal.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft_horse" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11437" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2845" RevisionGUID="e4db8ba8-4d4c-477d-a6ca-30b9b231ca21" CreationDate="2017-08-18T17:59:15.940" UserId="2892" Text="Why is Thor's chariot pulled by goats?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11438" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2845" RevisionGUID="e4db8ba8-4d4c-477d-a6ca-30b9b231ca21" CreationDate="2017-08-18T17:59:15.940" UserId="2892" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11439" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2846" RevisionGUID="a8ed56ba-776a-4406-b545-2f5e43fad500" CreationDate="2017-08-18T23:19:11.767" UserId="4083" Text="Has anyone else heard of the Kleevauks? I've heard a myth about a separate fay being created by the Elementals. Supposedly to help keep nature and magic balanced. I heard that these Kleevauks were supposed to be deities of the fay. I haven't been able to find any mention of the Kleevauks online or in books. I could be spelling it wrong. Any body else heard of this? If so, do you have any text or website sources?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11440" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2846" RevisionGUID="a8ed56ba-776a-4406-b545-2f5e43fad500" CreationDate="2017-08-18T23:19:11.767" UserId="4083" Text="anybody else heard of this?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11441" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2846" RevisionGUID="a8ed56ba-776a-4406-b545-2f5e43fad500" CreationDate="2017-08-18T23:19:11.767" UserId="4083" Text="|fairies|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11442" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2847" RevisionGUID="46be150a-e576-443a-8a9e-ad2feb4d2d04" CreationDate="2017-08-18T23:38:30.290" UserId="3989" Text="Snorri&amp;rsquo;s tale of the goats&amp;rsquo; being being magically reconstituted after being eaten for meat is of a common type of mythic motif, a fantasy cherished by a people who know hunger intimately. (Compare Ojibwe myths featuring a tiny kettle that proves an inexhaustible cornucopia of *manoomin* [that&amp;rsquo;s &amp;ldquo;wild rice&amp;rdquo; to us *chimooks*]; a more specific match, though, is the myth of Tantalos and Pelops.) The socio-economic class associated with Thor&amp;rsquo;s cult was lower than that associated with Odin&amp;rsquo;s, after all. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At one level, one might say that even a god might have to settle for whatever species he could get with this rare magical property, if he felt it requisite. But on a very different level, one might ask if his &amp;ldquo;choice&amp;rdquo; of goats is any weirder than, say, the choice of a castrated blue lion to be the mount or &amp;ldquo;vehicle&amp;rdquo; of the Bodhisattva Manjusri. Quite possibly these pairings between divine personages and their familiar animals are holdovers from a stage of totemism. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11443" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2846" RevisionGUID="61cea7ad-beb2-4312-9675-75c5dac768c4" CreationDate="2017-08-19T12:24:31.367" UserId="1076" Comment="Fixed the title" Text="What are some good sources for understanding about the Kleevauks?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11444" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2846" RevisionGUID="61cea7ad-beb2-4312-9675-75c5dac768c4" CreationDate="2017-08-19T12:24:31.367" Comment="Proposed by 1076 approved by 2774, 1241 edit id of 457" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11445" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2848" RevisionGUID="2e53a29d-0464-4f3a-906c-52870e68175f" CreationDate="2017-08-19T16:26:06.817" UserId="292" Text="Thor's &quot;ride&quot; fits with his role as god of the common people. While most of the gods ride horses, Thor drives a wagon, or walks. (He walks across Bifrost, the rainbow bridge, according to the *Prose Edda*.)  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;As for the goats, I'm just guessing here, but there's a verse in the poem *[Havamal][1]*, which is supposed to be the widsom of Odin himself:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One's own house is best, though small it may be;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; each man is master at  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; home; though he have but two goats and a bark-thatched hut  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'tis better than craving a boon.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;So a goat would be the least that a subsistence farmer could get by with - but Thor's goats are special, because he can eat them and use them for draft animals time and again. Also, anyone who can yoke a goat and make it pull a wagon is clearly possessed of supernatural powers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2845/why-is-thors-chariot-pulled-by-goats/2848#2848" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11453" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2831" RevisionGUID="f7244b32-8985-4c87-a02d-81283c754c9e" CreationDate="2017-08-20T17:59:06.020" UserId="1317" Comment="A little tightning to strengthen Heather's point" Text="The shift has to do with Hestia originally being one of the twelve; then when Dionysus became a god, she gave up her throne for Dionysus. Interestingly enough, this unbalanced the council; there were then 7 men and 5 women. These were&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Zeus&#xD;&#xA;* Hera&#xD;&#xA;* Ares&#xD;&#xA;* Athena&#xD;&#xA;* Apollo&#xD;&#xA;* Artemis&#xD;&#xA;* (initially) Hestia (then later) Dionysus&#xD;&#xA;* Poseidon&#xD;&#xA;* Aphrodite&#xD;&#xA;* Demeter&#xD;&#xA;* Hephaestus&#xD;&#xA;* Hermes&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These specifically were the main twelve for several reasons:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Seniority&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A couple were direct children of Kronos, namely Zeus, Poseidon, Hera, and Demeter (and Hestia, but she gave up her seat for Dionysus; and not Hades, see below). This puts five on their seats fairly clearly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. Purpose&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The remaining gods were major in that they had governance over important things - Ares, god of war, Athena, goddess of war and wisdom, Hephaestus, god of blacksmithing, clever workmanship, and fire, Apollo, god of poetry, archery, sickness and healing, prophecy, and the sun (which he sometimes gave up to Helios, the Titan), Artemis, goddess of hunting, the moon (sometimes given up to Selene, the Titan), virginity/young women, children, and also archery, Dionysus, god of wine (wine was a lot more important back then because water was not safe to drink in most cases; therefore wine was more commonly consumed as the alcohol killed the germs/bacteria/gross stuff), Hermes, god of messengers, travelers, thievery, games of chance, cattle, and all that good stuff, and Aphrodite, goddess of love.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;No one put minor gods and goddesses on the council because they just weren't important enough. Could you imagine have the god of bee-keeping and cheese-making on the council (Aristaeus)?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And then there was Hades. The reason he (and Persephone his wife) weren't on the council was because they were kind of scary, and he just didn't visit Olympus much. He had his own realm to handle (the Underworld). " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11454" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2831" RevisionGUID="f7244b32-8985-4c87-a02d-81283c754c9e" CreationDate="2017-08-20T17:59:06.020" Comment="Proposed by 1317 approved by 4023 edit id of 458" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11456" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1045" RevisionGUID="71f4b195-5afc-41a2-afbb-f229f44a7fbc" CreationDate="2017-08-21T08:57:13.860" UserId="57" Comment="edited body" Text="###It's a relatively new addition to the vampire mythos. Attributed to [Bram Stoker's Dracula][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Despite its important contributions to vampire fiction, several popular traits of fictional vampires are absent. Count Dracula is killed by a bowie knife, not a wooden stake. The destruction of the vampire Lucy is a three-part process (staking, decapitation, and garlic in the mouth), not the simple stake-only procedure often found in later vampire stories. Dracula has the ability to travel as a mist and to scale the external walls of his castle. **One very famous trait Stoker added is the inability to be seen in mirrors, which is not something found in traditional Eastern European folklore**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://dracula.cc/literature/bram_stoker_dracula/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11457" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1023" RevisionGUID="16e5ea75-15c9-4251-be7b-f3601029d682" CreationDate="2017-08-21T08:57:25.703" UserId="1317" Comment="Grocer's comma" Text="Origin of the 'vampires have no reflection' myth" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11458" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1023" RevisionGUID="16e5ea75-15c9-4251-be7b-f3601029d682" CreationDate="2017-08-21T08:57:25.703" Comment="Proposed by 1317 approved by 967, 57 edit id of 459" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11459" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2853" RevisionGUID="8db40906-75b5-4809-9a70-b5916ab4bf6f" CreationDate="2017-08-21T20:14:00.117" UserId="4093" Text="What was the symbolism behind Psyche's tasks? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The taskmaster in the story of Cupid and Psyche was Cupid's mother,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the love goddess Venus or Aphrodite. Venus had never liked Psyche, so&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the opportunity of putting her to a series of tests gave Venus a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; chance to demand the seemingly impossible. In order for Psyche to win&#xD;&#xA;&gt; back her husband, Cupid, Venus set 4 seemingly impossible tasks before&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Psyche:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; sorting out a huge pile of seeds retrieving the Golden Fleece, filling&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a flask from the water that fills the River Styx, and returning from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Underworld with a box of the beauty ointment of Proserpina (aka&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Persephone).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;SOURCE: ThoughtCo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are more details behind it and how she have done it. (Go search for it)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why Venus asked her to do theese specific tests and what Psyche have learned from them? I want to know the meaning behind theese tests. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11460" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2853" RevisionGUID="8db40906-75b5-4809-9a70-b5916ab4bf6f" CreationDate="2017-08-21T20:14:00.117" UserId="4093" Text="Symbolism behind Psyche's tasks" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11461" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2853" RevisionGUID="8db40906-75b5-4809-9a70-b5916ab4bf6f" CreationDate="2017-08-21T20:14:00.117" UserId="4093" Text="|greek|symbolism|interpretation|cupid|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11462" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2845" RevisionGUID="89c5afe3-55ba-486c-a922-9f6d273ff1f4" CreationDate="2017-08-22T07:44:31.377" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|thor|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11463" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2853" RevisionGUID="0a84acbc-7e6d-49ab-8f84-7bc838b94056" CreationDate="2017-08-22T07:50:50.837" UserId="57" Comment="title; quote formatting; link to quote source." Text="&gt; The taskmaster in the story of Cupid and Psyche was Cupid's mother, the love goddess Venus or Aphrodite. Venus had never liked Psyche, so the opportunity of putting her to a series of tests gave Venus a chance to demand the seemingly impossible. In order for Psyche to win back her husband, Cupid, Venus set 4 seemingly impossible tasks before Psyche:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1. sorting out a huge pile of seeds &#xD;&#xA;2. retrieving the Golden Fleece,&#xD;&#xA;3. filling a flask from the water that fills the River Styx, and &#xD;&#xA;4. returning from the Underworld with a box of the beauty ointment of Proserpina (aka Persephone).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Source: [What Were the 4 Tasks Psyche Had to Complete?](https://www.thoughtco.com/what-were-the-4-tasks-psyche-had-to-complete-117893)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are more details behind it and how she has done it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why Venus asked her to do these specific tests and what Psyche have learned from them? I want to know the meaning behind these tests. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11464" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2853" RevisionGUID="0a84acbc-7e6d-49ab-8f84-7bc838b94056" CreationDate="2017-08-22T07:50:50.837" UserId="57" Comment="title; quote formatting; link to quote source." Text="What is the symbolism behind Psyche's tasks?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11465" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2853" RevisionGUID="0a84acbc-7e6d-49ab-8f84-7bc838b94056" CreationDate="2017-08-22T07:50:50.837" UserId="57" Comment="title; quote formatting; link to quote source." Text="|greek|symbolism|interpretation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11467" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2854" RevisionGUID="645bc890-ae45-416b-bba7-d3f9d96bad97" CreationDate="2017-08-22T17:20:42.410" UserId="4097" Text="Apep the snake almost ate the sun but Ra fought us off.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11468" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2855" RevisionGUID="02df19e6-60cb-4245-961d-cd5596799bc2" CreationDate="2017-08-22T18:21:11.913" UserId="4093" Text="Some indians, including some from here, Brazil, are afraid of photos. They dont like that somebody take pictures from them because they think that you are stealing their souls. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why they think such thing?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11469" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2855" RevisionGUID="02df19e6-60cb-4245-961d-cd5596799bc2" CreationDate="2017-08-22T18:21:11.913" UserId="4093" Text="Why some indians/indigenous thinks that photos steals their souls?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11470" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2855" RevisionGUID="02df19e6-60cb-4245-961d-cd5596799bc2" CreationDate="2017-08-22T18:21:11.913" UserId="4093" Text="|native-american|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11471" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2856" RevisionGUID="a5aacd89-df5b-421b-8668-281fae44220c" CreationDate="2017-08-22T21:12:35.933" UserId="3741" Text="I can't find any sources on a deeper meaning, so I think they were just a way for Venus to keep Psyche away from Cupid. The answer is basically in the source you gave. It says that the tasks are seemingly impossible, and the incentive to make it this way. I'm not sure if this was exactly what you were asking, but that's how I interpreted it." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11472" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2857" RevisionGUID="31689d35-cd44-4348-ae02-ac5a8eb6f1cb" CreationDate="2017-08-22T22:45:09.613" UserId="3741" Text="Well, not many do anymore. I found this on a [question on the skeptics stack exchange][1]&#xA;&#xA;&gt; [Carolyn J. Marr] illustrates a change in Native Americans' attitudes towards photography from the late 19th to the early 20th century.&#xA;&#xA;&gt;At first, many Native Americans were wary of having their photographs taken and often refused. They believed that the process could steal a person's soul and disrespected the spiritual world.&#xA;&#xA;&gt;Over time, however, some Native Americans came to cherish photographs as links to ancestors and even integrated them into important ceremonies.&#xA;&#xA;As to why, the indigenous people didn't understand this technology. In there minds, they saw this as magic that could trap a person or an image inside something. Hence the idea that it would steal your soul. This is similar to the ideas of medieval peoples that found alien things magical and often evil (hence the witch hunts, even though they weren't as huge as they seem), I'm sure the reaction of a medieval person to photographs would be very similar. &#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/8380/did-some-cultures-believe-that-photography-can-steal-your-soul" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11473" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1542" RevisionGUID="ee020b57-b4bf-4edd-9b36-deaaf00dc402" CreationDate="2017-08-22T23:29:08.310" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|argonauts|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11474" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="959" RevisionGUID="42f9d2f5-c9b7-4019-a6b1-31c52bde31a4" CreationDate="2017-08-22T23:29:27.463" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|argonauts|talos|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11475" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="218" RevisionGUID="25baec44-f463-4610-8370-1c836f04e7c1" CreationDate="2017-08-22T23:29:48.520" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|talos|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11476" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2858" RevisionGUID="740fa7a2-7905-4320-aee5-6ebeaf2c872f" CreationDate="2017-08-22T23:41:37.667" UserId="57" Text="Is there any indication in the [Argonautica][1] or any other ancient telling of the myth of roughly how long it took Jason and his Argonauts to travel from Iolcos to Colchis and back?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argonautica" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11477" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2858" RevisionGUID="740fa7a2-7905-4320-aee5-6ebeaf2c872f" CreationDate="2017-08-22T23:41:37.667" UserId="57" Text="How long was the voyage of the Argonauts?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11478" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2858" RevisionGUID="740fa7a2-7905-4320-aee5-6ebeaf2c872f" CreationDate="2017-08-22T23:41:37.667" UserId="57" Text="|greek|argonauts|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11479" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2853" RevisionGUID="2178bc90-1a5a-454f-b0e2-78aa62fe09cb" CreationDate="2017-08-23T13:55:42.797" UserId="4093" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|roman|symbolism|interpretation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11480" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="610" RevisionGUID="c63decfe-398e-482c-aa3f-517215a8c2ab" CreationDate="2017-08-23T23:34:18.187" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags; edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|mythical-creatures|hittite|anatolia|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11481" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2859" RevisionGUID="ec98f108-a6bf-46ef-98e4-24d0430595be" CreationDate="2017-08-23T23:38:10.827" UserId="57" Text="The BBC History article [Ancient History in depth: Jason and the Golden Fleece. BBC - History][1] mentions a Hittite story similar to the story of Jason and Medea: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thus the classic triangle of hero, dark power and female helper is formed, to be repeated in stories all the way down to Hollywood. And it seems possible that this theme was based on an even earlier myth. An excavation of the 1920s and 30s, at Boghaz Koy, in central Turkey, uncovered Indo-European tablets from a Hittite civilisation dating to the 14th century BC. One of these has an account on it of a story similar to that of Jason and Medea, and may reveal the prehistory of the myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Michael Wood. Ancient History in depth: Jason and the Golden Fleece. BBC - History. [Accessed 24 Aug. 2017]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What story might that be? What parallels does it share with the Greek version?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/greeks/jason_01.shtml" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11482" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2859" RevisionGUID="ec98f108-a6bf-46ef-98e4-24d0430595be" CreationDate="2017-08-23T23:38:10.827" UserId="57" Text="Hittite story similar to the story of Jason and Medea?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11483" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2859" RevisionGUID="ec98f108-a6bf-46ef-98e4-24d0430595be" CreationDate="2017-08-23T23:38:10.827" UserId="57" Text="|myth-identification|argonauts|hittite|anatolia|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11484" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2860" RevisionGUID="2f93d525-48c9-4ab9-8712-7379f945d415" CreationDate="2017-08-24T04:15:51.497" UserId="2682" Text="By my reading, the biggest stretch of time that Apollonius Rhodius mentions in his *Argonautica* as being spent in a single location by his heroes is in Line 1079 of Book 1, where they get stranded on Arktonnesos [Arctonnesus], “Bear Island,” for *twelve days and twelve nights* before they figure out how to persuade Kybele [Cybele] to let them successfully set sail again. Prior to this, the Argonauts have spent one additional day and night on Arktonnesos. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond these numbers, the itinerary explicitly accounts for at least forty *other* days of travel in total (2 days at the tomb of Dolops in Magnesia; 2 days sailing from Magnesia to Lemnos Island; 1 day from Lemnos to Samothrace Island; 1 day from Arktonnesos to the River Kios [Cius] in Bithynia; at least 15 more days on the coast of Bithynia; 3 days from Colchis to the River Halys; 7 days on Drepane Island; and 9 days [+ nights] sailing between Drepane and Syrtis in Libya). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That accounts for 41 days of the voyage. After tinkering with GoogleMaps, I did some very rough calculations of how long it might take to sail from the one destination to the other of the numerous remaining ones (about 21 additional locations) with some added days for the activities described at the respective ports of call, and I got roughly 120 days for the entire expedition from Iolkos [Iolcus] to Colchis and back. Assuming that a month should have exactly 30 days in it (and of course they don’t necessarily behave this way), that’s exactly 4 months.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“Islands of Knowledge: Space and Names in Imperial Mythography” is the 14th chapter of *Myths on the Map: The Storied Landscapes of Ancient Greece*.&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; The chapter’s author Charles Delattre notes that Apollodorus follows Apollonius Rhodius’ itinerary for the voyage of the *Argo*.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I genuinely was not expecting my guesswork to turn out the same result as an ancient source, but it makes sense, then, that Apollodorus was using Apollonius’ route. The end of *Bibliotheka* 1.9.26 says that the *Argo*, to conclude its sojourn, sailed from Aigina [Aegina] Island, passing between Euboia [Euboea] Island and Lokris [Locris] on its way back to Iolkos, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; having completed the whole voyage in **four months**.    &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[*Emphasis mine*]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Question becomes intricately more complex if it takes into account the different itineraries that other ancient mythographers wrote about, which contradict Apollonius and Apollodorus quite sharply in some respects. For this, see the [maps](http://www.argonauts-book.com/maps.html)&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; of the routes described by Pindar, Hecataeus, Herodorus of Heraclea Pontica (who has the Argo pass through his hometown both on its way to and from Colchis, going exactly[?] the same way it came on its return journey); Timaeus of Tauromenium; the *Argonautika Orphika*; and even the theory of Henriette Mertz&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;, who&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;proposed in 1964 that the Argonauts' voyage took place in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Atlantic Ocean, with Colchis being the ancient Bolivian city of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tiwanaku. Unfortunately, Tiwanaku would not be built for a thousand&#xD;&#xA;&gt; years after Pindar wrote of the Argonauts' voyage.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Apollonius Rhodius' Argonautica route map][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[*Pseudo-*]Apollodorus, as far as I know, is the only ancient source for the explicit measurement of the entire collective duration of the Argonautic enterprise. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Greta Hawes (ed.) 2017. Oxford University Press, The United Kingdom&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. Courtesy of the website **Jason and the Argonauts Through the Ages**.  &#xD;&#xA;(*Jason Colavito, the author of this site, is incidentally the namesake of the Argonaut leader.*)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. Mertz’s theory takes the *Argo* all the way around the coast of Brazil as well as touching every single one of Brazil's neighbouring [modern] countries! (See Colavito's [cartographical rendition](http://www.argonauts-book.com/uploads/3/7/5/9/3759274/2421989_orig.jpg?882) of this.)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/04tco.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11486" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2860" RevisionGUID="912eb47e-14fc-4b8e-9b2a-662cdd188885" CreationDate="2017-08-24T06:41:33.747" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected spelling, improved formatting &amp; added some details" Text="By my reading, the biggest stretch of time that Apollonius Rhodius mentions in his *Argonautica* as being spent in a single location by his heroes is in Line 1079 of Book 1, where they get stranded on Arktonnesos [Arctonnesus], “Bear Island,” for *twelve days and twelve nights* before they figure out how to persuade Kybele [Cybele] to let them successfully set sail again. Prior to this, the Argonauts have spent one additional day and night on Arktonnesos. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond these numbers, the itinerary explicitly accounts for at least forty *other* days of travel in total (2 days at the tomb of Dolops in Magnesia; 2 days sailing from Magnesia to Lemnos Island; 1 day from Lemnos to Samothrace Island; 1 day from Arktonnesos to the River Kios [Cius] in Bithynia; at least 15 more days on the coast of Bithynia; 3 days from Colchis to the River Halys; 7 days on Drepane Island; and 9 days [+ nights] sailing between Drepane and Syrtis in Libya). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That accounts for 41 days of the voyage. After tinkering with GoogleMaps, I did some very rough calculations of how long it might take to sail from the one destination to the other of the numerous remaining ones (about 21 additional locations) with some added days for the activities described at the respective ports of call, and I got roughly 120 days for the entire expedition from Iolkos [Iolcus] to Colchis and back. Assuming that a month should have exactly 30 days in it (and of course they don’t necessarily behave this way), that’s exactly 4 months.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“Islands of Knowledge: Space and Names in Imperial Mythography” is the 14th chapter of *Myths on the Map: The Storied Landscapes of Ancient Greece*.&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; The chapter’s author Charles Delattre [notes](https://books.google.com/books?id=EjwkDwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA270#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false) that Apollodorus follows Apollonius Rhodius’ itinerary for the voyage of the *Argo*.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I genuinely was not expecting my guesswork to turn out the same result as an ancient source, but it makes sense, then, that Apollodorus was using Apollonius’ route. The end of [*Bibliotheka* 1.9.26](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Apollod.+1.9.26&amp;fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022) says that the *Argo*, to conclude its sojourn, sailed from Aigina [Aegina] Island, passing between Euboia [Euboea] Island and Lokris [Locris] on its way back to Iolkos, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; having completed the whole voyage in **four months**.    &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[*Emphasis mine*]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Question becomes intricately more complex if it takes into account the different itineraries that other ancient mythographers wrote about, which contradict Apollonius and Apollodorus quite sharply in some respects. For this, see the [maps](http://www.argonauts-book.com/maps.html)&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; of the routes described by Pindar, Hecataeus, Herodorus of Heraclea Pontica (who has the Argo pass through his hometown both on its way to and from Colchis, going back exactly[?] the same way it went); Timaeus of Tauromenium; the *Argonautica Orphica*; and even the theory of Henriette Mertz&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;, who&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;proposed in 1964 that the Argonauts' voyage took place in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Atlantic Ocean, with Colchis being the ancient Bolivian city of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tiwanaku. Unfortunately, Tiwanaku would not be built for a thousand&#xD;&#xA;&gt; years after Pindar wrote of the Argonauts' voyage.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Apollonius Rhodius' Argonautica route map][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(*Pseudo-*)Apollodorus, as far as I know, is the only ancient source to explicit state the entire collective duration of the Argonautic enterprise. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Greta Hawes (ed.) 2017. Oxford University Press, The United Kingdom&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. Courtesy of the website [Jason and the Argonauts Through the Ages](http://www.argonauts-book.com/). (*Jason Colavito, the author of this site, is incidentally the namesake of the Argonaut leader.*)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. Mertz’s theory takes the *Argo* all the way around the coast of Brazil as well as touching every single one of Brazil's neighbouring [modern] countries! (See Colavito's [cartographical rendition](http://www.argonauts-book.com/uploads/3/7/5/9/3759274/2421989_orig.jpg?882) of this.)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/04tco.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11492" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2864" RevisionGUID="e1fb6ae9-c4ac-4f88-9002-1e0389d6e40c" CreationDate="2017-08-24T19:30:28.990" UserId="2774" Text="As usual, if you remove the little-simplified version of the BBC, the story they are talking about is &quot;the Storm God and the serpent&quot;. but first:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;the Hittite&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Hittite is an old civilization running through the 2000BC - 1000 BC period. Factually they are great enough to have stopped Ramses II, potentially the most powerful pharaoh ever. Their capital was Hattusa which has been unearthed near the small village of Boğazköy, hence you will find people talking either of Hattusa or Boğazköy (I am always using Hattusa).&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The general relationship between the &quot;Hittite area&quot; and the Golden Fleece is suspected from the Greeks themselves, as here noticed by Herodotus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 7-26: In any case, after crossing the Halys River,  [the army of King&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Xerxes] entered Phrygia, and on their way through the country they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; arrived at Kelaini [...] It is in this city that the skin of Marsyas&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Silenus is suspended [...] It was hung there after Marsyas was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; flayed by Appolo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Storm God and the Serpent&#xD;&#xA;-----------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You will find this story under a lot of name. Hittites was made of a bunch of civilizations, talking different languages (and writing either in cuneiform or hieroglyp as the Luwian language)and it is reflected here. the Storm God will so be:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Teshub in Hurrian&#xD;&#xA; - Taru for the Anatolian&#xD;&#xA; - The Storm God for the Hittite (dU in Cuneiform, the &quot;d&quot; being an apposition meaning &quot;god&quot;,, a star in cuneiform)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the same level the Serpent is:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The Serpent&#xD;&#xA; - Illuyanka, which means... serpent in Hittite...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So you will find this story as &quot;Teshub and Illuyanka&quot;, Taru and the snake dragon, etc.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;There are 2 versions of this story I will shortly describe the second one first:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Second version&#xD;&#xA;=============&#xD;&#xA;Lord Teshub is beaten by Illuyanka who take his heart and eye. Teshud marries the daughter of a poor man and sire a son. This son espouses the daughter of Illuyanka. Teshub asking him to get back his Heart and eye. Which he is finally obtaining. Teshub then attacks Illuyanka and kills him, his son coming to him as begging him to kill him with his new family.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;I cited this story because of its close connection with Apollodorus's depiction of Typhon vs Zeus. you have the same core elements: Zeus/Teshub defeated and amputated, they both come back and kick the sorry ass of their arsonists.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First version&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;The first version is older (for sure) and goes like that (translation by Gary Beckman):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When Teshub and Illuyanka fought each other in the city of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kishkilushsha, Illuyanka vanquished Teshub.&lt;BR&gt; [Inara](GB: Inara is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Teshub's daughter, Medea here) prepared everything in great&#xD;&#xA;&gt; quantity[...] In the vessels she made abundance. Inara went to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; city of Ziggaratta and she found Khupashiya (GB: here is Jason), a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mortal[...] &quot;I am about to do such and such thing, come with me&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thusly Khupashiya to Inara &quot;If I may sleep with you, then I will come&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and I will do that of you heart&quot;[...]&lt;BR&gt; Inara led Khupashiya away&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and she concealed him. Inara dressed herself up, and she invited&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Illuyanka [...] So [he] came along with his sons and they ate and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; drank [...] They did not want to go down into the lair again.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Khupashiya came and tied up the serpent with a rope. Teshub came and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; killed Illuyanka.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you can see the story is going like that:&#xD;&#xA;An obvious goddess (Medea/Inara) is falling in love with a powerful mortal warrior (Jason/Khupashiya), and help him get rid of a mighty &quot;dragon&quot;. Potentially he is later killed (unfortunately the Hittite text, destroyed is not clear).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Walter Burkert talked about that in his fairly excellent *Structure and history in Greek Mythology and Ritual*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (page 10) Recently, Volkert Haas [GB: the book is incorrectly spelling&#xD;&#xA;Volker instead of Volkert] has drawn attention to quite another&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greek myth which bears a surprising resemblance to the Illuyankas myth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as told in the &quot;older&quot; version [GB: what I called here the first version]: Jason and Medea. Here, as there, a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; goddess - there can be no doubt about Medea's divine status - takes a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mortal man as her lover and the two cooperate to overcome the dragon;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; but then the mortal man turns away from his superior spouse, and his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; destroyed in consequence [GB: Burkert's personal interpretation&#xD;&#xA;&gt; here. The Hittite text says nothing about Khupashiya's death] [...]&lt;BR&gt; I do not think this can be coincidence. But in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; spite of the suggestive parallels, it turns out to be impossible to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; integrate the Hittite and the Greek tales into one: on the Greek side&#xD;&#xA;&gt; there is nothing like the characteristic duality of champion and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; helper; thus the whole frame of the combat myth will not fit; on the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; other side, the fleeces, though well attested in Hittite Ritual, do&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not enter into the tale, whereas the Golden Fleece is the very goal of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jason's expedition. [GB: Factually the fleece appears in other stories&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as Telipinu's one... hence my comments, I thought Illuyanka story was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; part of a &quot;Telipinu's matter&quot;]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Generally speaking people specialized (or interested) in Near East old civilization have noticed the fairly strange similitudes between Greek myths and some Near East counterparts:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The cycle of Kumarbi with the beginning of Hesiod's Theogony&#xD;&#xA; - Ishtar episode in the tablet 6 of the Epic of Gilgamesh with Aphrodite's affair in the song 5 of the Iliad&#xD;&#xA; - Zeus loves with Hera in song 14 of the Iliad with the Enuma Elish&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does not means that one has not to be careful with hurried conclusions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11493" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2865" RevisionGUID="adb9edde-27a8-47e9-82a5-34ef276aeaef" CreationDate="2017-08-24T19:54:08.317" UserId="3725" Text="Here's a short summary of my current &quot;research&quot; on this &quot;topic&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Organ placement&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The human half mainly serves as a &quot;strange neck&quot;, with no organs, aside from a heart and a small lung for fine control of airflow (i.e: speech.), and is also connected to the horse lungs, similarly to avian **respiratory systems**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Location:** 2 pair of small ones in the upper (human) ribcage, 2 pairs of large ones in the horse part.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Btw, meeting the oxygen requirements of a running horse is easy, as they can't breathe through their mouth (another nail in &quot;intelligent design's&quot; coffin), but humans can. For further information visit the following link: https://youtu.be/QsvS6gEBJuE?t=1497 (Warning: Autopsy)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The **digestive system** is redesigned to be omnivore, with the addition of being able to digest grass.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Location:** Solely in the horse-half, aside from the esophagus and the mouth, of course.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;**Circulation**, is pretty much intact, aside from a few rewirings but with the addition of a human small heart, that helps at getting the blood up to the brain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did I mention you [the real Time Lords][1]? (yes, there was a DOUBLE HEART ATTACKT, no, he survived it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Small additions:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Stronger bones in the front legs, plus a lighter human-half would be ideal.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA; - The human-half shouldn't contain much fat, the horse part seems to be more fit for that.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And for everything else, there's the [Internet][2] and Master Card.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.oneindia.com/india/a-man-with-two-hearts-2452263.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.improbable.com/airchives/paperair/volume12/v12i5/centaur-12-5.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11494" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2866" RevisionGUID="d58b2bc9-ef2c-40c5-b445-1d90f8585c85" CreationDate="2017-08-24T20:34:07.817" UserId="3725" Text="So, in the Greek drama (?) [Iphigenia][1], in order to be able to go on a war against Troy, they need wind, and for the wind, they need to sacrifice Agamemnon's daughter (the gods demand it). Menelaus *(candidate for the &quot;worst brother&quot; and &quot;biggest douche&quot; in mythology)* wants him to **JUST DO IT!**, he's like: *&quot;Okay (screaming internally)&quot;*, but he does it in the end (the girl sacrifices herself).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Well I've got one question about this story:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Why did the dysfunctional family demand human sacrifice, after they've put the last guy, who played [soylent green][2] on them, in Hell? (Ya know, that [Tantalus guy][3])?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://youtu.be/ifFsKCrH3GM?list=PLDb22nlVXGgfwG1qbOtNgu897E_ky_8To&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://youtu.be/9IKVj4l5GU4?t=25&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantalus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11495" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2866" RevisionGUID="d58b2bc9-ef2c-40c5-b445-1d90f8585c85" CreationDate="2017-08-24T20:34:07.817" UserId="3725" Text="Why human sacrifice?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11496" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2866" RevisionGUID="d58b2bc9-ef2c-40c5-b445-1d90f8585c85" CreationDate="2017-08-24T20:34:07.817" UserId="3725" Text="|greek|trojan-war|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11497" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2866" RevisionGUID="2ec4488d-ea5a-44e6-86c1-61ceb4d7cc04" CreationDate="2017-08-24T20:55:53.307" UserId="3725" Comment="added 6 characters in body" Text="So, in the Greek drama (?) [Iphigenia][1], in order to be able to go on a war against Troy, the greeks need wind, and for the wind, they need to sacrifice Agamemnon's daughter (the gods demand it). Menelaus *(candidate for the &quot;worst brother&quot; and &quot;biggest douche&quot; in mythology)* wants him to **JUST DO IT!**, he's like: *&quot;Okay (screaming internally)&quot;*, but he does it in the end (the girl sacrifices herself).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Well I've got one question about this story:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Why did the dysfunctional family demand human sacrifice, after they've put the last guy, who played [soylent green][2] on them, in Hell? (Ya know, that [Tantalus guy][3])?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://youtu.be/ifFsKCrH3GM?list=PLDb22nlVXGgfwG1qbOtNgu897E_ky_8To&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://youtu.be/9IKVj4l5GU4?t=25&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantalus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11498" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2867" RevisionGUID="490a52c0-c28b-4e9d-8da8-83291efbed60" CreationDate="2017-08-24T21:08:17.927" UserId="2892" Text="I've always thought it falls under Frazer's concept of [Sympathetic Magic][1].  In Ancient Greek, the idea of the lifeforce is bound with words related to breath or wind: [ψυχή][2] (psuke) and [πνεῦμα][3] (pneuma), specifically.  Thus, releasing the life force, or breath, from [Iphigenia][4]'s body raises the winds to sail to Troy.  Likewise with [Polyxena][5] for the ride back.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Euripides seems to have had something of an obsession with human sacrifice, as it is a subject of several of his plays, and even more of them if you consider Medea's act a form of human sacrifice.  ([She is whisked away by Helios in the end][6], so, as appalling as the act is to we humans, it did not earn her disfavor with her patron god.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My feeling with Polyxena in particular is that her spirit was much greater than the Greeks imagined (she shames them with her heroism in accepting her fate,) which results in the storm that scatters the Greek fleet returning from Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.bartleby.com/196/5.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dyuxh%2F&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://%CF%80%CE%BD%CE%B5%E1%BF%A6%CE%BC%CE%B1&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iphigenia_in_Aulis&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyxena&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0114%3Acard%3D1293" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11499" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2867" RevisionGUID="d637b675-e4e1-47df-8b17-6132f2a36ccc" CreationDate="2017-08-24T21:16:42.910" UserId="2892" Comment="added 207 characters in body" Text="I've always thought it falls under Frazer's concept of [Sympathetic Magic][1].  In Ancient Greek, the idea of the lifeforce is bound with words related to breath or wind: [ψυχή][2] (psuke) and [πνεῦμα][3] (pneuma), specifically.  Thus, releasing the life force, or breath, from [Iphigenia][4]'s body raises the winds to sail to Troy.  Likewise with [Polyxena][5] for the ride back.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Euripides seems to have had something of an obsession with human sacrifice, as it is a subject of several of his plays, and even more if you consider Medea's act a form of human sacrifice.  ([She is whisked away by Helios in the end][6], so, as appalling as the act is to we humans, it did not earn her disfavor with her patron god.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My feeling with Polyxena in particular is that her spirit was much greater than the Greeks imagined--she shames them with her heroism in accepting her fate--which results in the storm that scatters the Greek fleet returning from Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_____________________________________________________________&#xD;&#xA;*Note: This is simply my own interpretation.  In the text themselves, it is simply an appeasement of various gods, who then allow the winds to blow.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.bartleby.com/196/5.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dyuxh%2F&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://%CF%80%CE%BD%CE%B5%E1%BF%A6%CE%BC%CE%B1&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iphigenia_in_Aulis&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyxena&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0114%3Acard%3D1293" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11501" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2860" RevisionGUID="9216360a-9ca1-4348-b8b3-a2c0daf2067f" CreationDate="2017-08-24T21:40:05.750" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="By my reading, the biggest stretch of time that Apollonius Rhodius mentions in his *Argonautica* as being spent in a single location by his heroes is in Line 1079 of Book 1, where they get stranded on Arktonnesos [Arctonnesus], “Bear Island,” for *twelve days and twelve nights* before they figure out how to persuade Kybele [Cybele] to let them successfully set sail again. Prior to this, the Argonauts have spent one additional day and night on Arktonnesos. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond these numbers, the itinerary explicitly accounts for at least forty *other* days of travel in total (2 days at the tomb of Dolops in Magnesia; 2 days sailing from Magnesia to Lemnos Island; 1 day from Lemnos to Samothrace Island; 1 day from Arktonnesos to the River Kios [Cius] in Bithynia; at least 15 more days on the coast of Bithynia; 3 days from Colchis to the River Halys; 7 days on Drepane Island; and 9 days [+ nights] sailing between Drepane and Syrtis in Libya). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That accounts for 41 days of the voyage. After tinkering with GoogleMaps, I did some very rough calculations of how long it might take to sail from the one destination to the other of the numerous remaining ones (about 21 additional locations) with some added days for the activities described at the respective ports of call, and I got roughly 120 days for the entire expedition from Iolkos [Iolcus] to Colchis and back. Assuming that a month should have exactly 30 days in it (and of course they don’t necessarily behave this way), that’s exactly 4 months.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“Islands of Knowledge: Space and Names in Imperial Mythography” is the 14th chapter of *Myths on the Map: The Storied Landscapes of Ancient Greece*.&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; The chapter’s author Charles Delattre [notes](https://books.google.com/books?id=EjwkDwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA270#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false) that Apollodorus follows Apollonius Rhodius’ itinerary for the voyage of the *Argo*.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I genuinely was not expecting my guesswork to turn out the same result as an ancient source, but it makes sense, then, that Apollodorus was using Apollonius’ route. The end of [*Bibliotheka* 1.9.26](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Apollod.+1.9.26&amp;fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022) says that the *Argo*, to conclude its sojourn, sailed from Aigina [Aegina] Island, passing between Euboia [Euboea] Island and Lokris [Locris] on its way back to Iolkos, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; having completed the whole voyage in **four months**.    &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[*Emphasis mine*]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Question becomes intricately more complex if it takes into account the different itineraries that other ancient mythographers wrote about, which contradict Apollonius and Apollodorus quite sharply in some respects. For this, see the [maps](http://www.argonauts-book.com/maps.html)&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; of the routes described by Pindar; Hecataeus; Herodorus of Heraclea Pontica (who has the Argo pass through his hometown both on its way to and from Colchis, going back exactly[?] the same way it went); Timaeus of Tauromenium; the *Argonautica Orphica*; and even the theory of Henriette Mertz&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;, who&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;proposed in 1964 that the Argonauts' voyage took place in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Atlantic Ocean, with Colchis being the ancient Bolivian city of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tiwanaku. Unfortunately, Tiwanaku would not be built for a thousand&#xD;&#xA;&gt; years after Pindar wrote of the Argonauts' voyage.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Apollonius Rhodius' Argonautica route map][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(*Pseudo-*)Apollodorus, as far as I know, is the only ancient source to explicitly state the entire collective duration of the Argonautic enterprise. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Greta Hawes (ed.) 2017. Oxford University Press, The United Kingdom&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. Courtesy of the website [Jason and the Argonauts Through the Ages](http://www.argonauts-book.com/). (*Jason Colavito, the author of this site, is incidentally the namesake of the Argonaut leader.*)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. Mertz’s theory takes the *Argo* all the way around the coast of Brazil as well as touching every single one of Brazil's neighbouring [modern] countries! (See Colavito's [cartographical rendition](http://www.argonauts-book.com/uploads/3/7/5/9/3759274/2421989_orig.jpg?882) of this.)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/04tco.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11502" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2868" RevisionGUID="28cb8437-a017-448c-aae8-5f857b8981d7" CreationDate="2017-08-24T23:58:35.513" UserId="57" Text="Pausanias tells us that the Lacedaemonians worshipped an image of Aphrodite armed: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Not far from the theatre is a sanctuary of Poseidon God of Kin, and there are hero-shrines of Cleodaeus, son of Hyllus, and of Oebalus. The most famous of their sanctuaries of Asclepius has been built near Booneta, and on the left is the hero-shrine of Teleclus. I shall mention him again later in my history of Messenia. A little farther on is a small hill, on which is an ancient temple with a wooden image of Aphrodite armed. This is the only temple I know that has an upper storey built upon it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why would the goddess of love, beauty, and procreation be armed? She wasn't exactly known for her military attributes. &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11503" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2868" RevisionGUID="28cb8437-a017-448c-aae8-5f857b8981d7" CreationDate="2017-08-24T23:58:35.513" UserId="57" Text="Why would Aphrodite be armed?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11504" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2868" RevisionGUID="28cb8437-a017-448c-aae8-5f857b8981d7" CreationDate="2017-08-24T23:58:35.513" UserId="57" Text="|greek|aphrodite|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11505" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2868" RevisionGUID="fa32a0f4-7d4d-403c-ab75-e74527058f83" CreationDate="2017-08-25T00:09:28.467" UserId="57" Comment="added 628 characters in body" Text="Pausanias tells us that the Lacedaemonians worshipped an image of Aphrodite armed: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Not far from the theatre is a sanctuary of Poseidon God of Kin, and there are hero-shrines of Cleodaeus, son of Hyllus, and of Oebalus. The most famous of their sanctuaries of Asclepius has been built near Booneta, and on the left is the hero-shrine of Teleclus. I shall mention him again later in my history of Messenia. A little farther on is a small hill, on which is an ancient temple with a wooden image of Aphrodite armed. This is the only temple I know that has an upper storey built upon it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why would the goddess of love, beauty, and procreation be armed? She wasn't exactly known for her military attributes. In fact, in Book 5 of the Iliad Zeus very bluntly dismisses her abilities as a warrior: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Of a surety now Cypris has been urging some one of the women of Achaea to follow after the Trojans, whom now she so wondrously loveth; and while stroking such a one of the fair-robed women of Achaea, she hath scratched upon her golden brooch her delicate hand.” So spake she, but the father of men and gods smiled, and calling to him golden Aphrodite, said: “Not unto thee, my child, are given works of war; nay, follow thou after the lovely works of marriage, and all these things shall be the business of swift Ares and Athene.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11506" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2868" RevisionGUID="ff04d638-4f18-4f46-97aa-95f2bb24cff0" CreationDate="2017-08-25T00:15:42.493" UserId="57" Comment="added 628 characters in body" Text="Pausanias [tells us][1] that the Lacedaemonians worshipped *Aphrodite Hoplismeni* (~armed): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Not far from the theatre is a sanctuary of Poseidon God of Kin, and there are hero-shrines of Cleodaeus, son of Hyllus, and of Oebalus. The most famous of their sanctuaries of Asclepius has been built near Booneta, and on the left is the hero-shrine of Teleclus. I shall mention him again later in my history of Messenia. A little farther on is a small hill, on which is an ancient temple with a wooden image of Aphrodite armed. This is the only temple I know that has an upper storey built upon it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Pausanias. Pausanias Description of Greece with an English Translation by W.H.S. Jones, Litt.D., and H.A. Ormerod, M.A., in 4 Volumes. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1918&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why would the goddess of love, beauty, and procreation be armed? She wasn't exactly known for her military attributes. In fact, in [Book 5 of the Iliad][2] Zeus very bluntly dismisses her abilities as a warrior: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Of a surety now Cypris has been urging some one of the women of Achaea to follow after the Trojans, whom now she so wondrously loveth; and while stroking such a one of the fair-robed women of Achaea, she hath scratched upon her golden brooch her delicate hand.” So spake she, but the father of men and gods smiled, and calling to him golden Aphrodite, said: “Not unto thee, my child, are given works of war; nay, follow thou after the lovely works of marriage, and all these things shall be the business of swift Ares and Athene.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Homer. The Iliad with an English Translation by A.T. Murray, Ph.D. in two volumes. Cambridge, MA., Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann, Ltd. 1924.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0525.tlg001.perseus-eng1:3.15.10&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0012.tlg001.perseus-eng1:5.416-5.459" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11507" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2868" RevisionGUID="6d35bb0d-4eab-4ea7-a612-6368cd38b173" CreationDate="2017-08-25T00:30:18.843" UserId="57" Comment="added 628 characters in body" Text="Pausanias tells us that the Spartans worshipped *Aphrodite Hoplismeni* (~armed) and *Aphrodite Areia* (~warlike): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [[Paus. 3.15.10][1]] Not far from the theatre is a sanctuary of Poseidon God of Kin, and there are hero-shrines of Cleodaeus, son of Hyllus, and of Oebalus. The most famous of their sanctuaries of Asclepius has been built near Booneta, and on the left is the hero-shrine of Teleclus. I shall mention him again later in my history of Messenia. A little farther on is a small hill, on which is an ancient temple with a wooden image of Aphrodite armed. This is the only temple I know that has an upper storey built upon it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [[Paus. 3.17.5][2]] On the left of the Lady of the Bronze House they have set up a sanctuary of the Muses, because the Lacedaemonians used to go out to fight, not to the sound of the trumpet, but to the music of the flute and the accompaniment of lyre and harp. Behind the Lady of the Bronze House is a temple of Aphrodite Areia （Warlike）. The wooden images are as old as any in Greece.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [[Paus. 3.23.1][3]] Cythera lies opposite Boeae; to the promontory of Platanistus, the point where the island lies nearest to the mainland, it is a voyage of forty stades from a promontory on the mainland called Onugnathus. In Cythera is a port Scandeia on the coast, but the town Cythera is about ten stades inland from Scandeia. The sanctuary of Aphrodite Urania （the Heavenly） is most holy, and it is the most ancient of all the sanctuaries of Aphrodite among the Greeks. The goddess herself is represented by an armed image of wood.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Pausanias. Pausanias Description of Greece with an English Translation by W.H.S. Jones, Litt.D., and H.A. Ormerod, M.A., in 4 Volumes. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1918&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why would the goddess of love, beauty, and procreation be armed? She wasn't exactly known for her military attributes. In fact, in [Book 5 of the Iliad][4] Zeus very bluntly dismisses her abilities as a warrior: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Of a surety now Cypris has been urging some one of the women of Achaea to follow after the Trojans, whom now she so wondrously loveth; and while stroking such a one of the fair-robed women of Achaea, she hath scratched upon her golden brooch her delicate hand.” So spake she, but the father of men and gods smiled, and calling to him golden Aphrodite, said: “Not unto thee, my child, are given works of war; nay, follow thou after the lovely works of marriage, and all these things shall be the business of swift Ares and Athene.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Homer. The Iliad with an English Translation by A.T. Murray, Ph.D. in two volumes. Cambridge, MA., Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann, Ltd. 1924.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was this militaristic version of Aphrodite a Lacedaemonian peculiarity? Could, perhaps, these images that are &quot;are as old as any in Greece&quot; be an allusion to Ishtar, an echo of Aphrodite's Mesopotamian origins?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0525.tlg001.perseus-eng1:3.15.10&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://data.perseus.org/citations/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0525.tlg001.perseus-eng1:3.17.5&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0525.tlg001.perseus-eng1:3.23.1&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0012.tlg001.perseus-eng1:5.416-5.459" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11508" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="892" RevisionGUID="91141f73-95a0-4fa6-bb80-7fb358cca42c" CreationDate="2017-08-25T00:32:01.963" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|aphrodite|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11509" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2857" RevisionGUID="97a50ef7-0e5c-40b4-9df2-750a39fb7cf8" CreationDate="2017-08-25T00:46:09.447" UserId="2892" Comment="added a link to the source of the quote" Text="Well, not many do anymore. I found this on a [question on the skeptics stack exchange][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Carolyn J. Marr] illustrates a change in Native Americans' attitudes towards photography from the late 19th to the early 20th century.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;At first, many Native Americans were wary of having their photographs taken and often refused. They believed that the process could steal a person's soul and disrespected the spiritual world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Over time, however, some Native Americans came to cherish photographs as links to ancestors and even integrated them into important ceremonies.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Historical Analysis and Interpretation: Photographs and Symbols][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As to why, the indigenous people didn't understand this technology. In there minds, they saw this as magic that could trap a person or an image inside something. Hence the idea that it would steal your soul. This is similar to the ideas of medieval peoples that found alien things magical and often evil (hence the witch hunts, even though they weren't as huge as they seem), I'm sure the reaction of a medieval person to photographs would be very similar. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/8380/did-some-cultures-believe-that-photography-can-steal-your-soul&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://web.archive.org/web/20091113050027/www.loc.gov/teachers/classroommaterials/connections/pacific/thinking3.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11510" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="2858" RevisionGUID="1929de7b-d900-4a27-9d71-d7d0eb895579" CreationDate="2017-08-25T00:55:34.557" UserId="57" Comment="49" />
  <row Id="11511" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2868" RevisionGUID="e0b36e9a-5576-45b8-b87f-10406784f5dc" CreationDate="2017-08-25T00:59:54.620" UserId="57" Comment="added 9 characters in body" Text="Pausanias tells us that the Spartans worshipped *Aphrodite Hoplismeni* (~armed) and *Aphrodite Areia* (~of Ares, warlike): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [[Paus. 3.15.10][1]] Not far from the theatre is a sanctuary of Poseidon God of Kin, and there are hero-shrines of Cleodaeus, son of Hyllus, and of Oebalus. The most famous of their sanctuaries of Asclepius has been built near Booneta, and on the left is the hero-shrine of Teleclus. I shall mention him again later in my history of Messenia. A little farther on is a small hill, on which is an ancient temple with a wooden image of Aphrodite armed. This is the only temple I know that has an upper storey built upon it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [[Paus. 3.17.5][2]] On the left of the Lady of the Bronze House they have set up a sanctuary of the Muses, because the Lacedaemonians used to go out to fight, not to the sound of the trumpet, but to the music of the flute and the accompaniment of lyre and harp. Behind the Lady of the Bronze House is a temple of Aphrodite Areia (Warlike). The wooden images are as old as any in Greece.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [[Paus. 3.23.1][3]] Cythera lies opposite Boeae; to the promontory of Platanistus, the point where the island lies nearest to the mainland, it is a voyage of forty stades from a promontory on the mainland called Onugnathus. In Cythera is a port Scandeia on the coast, but the town Cythera is about ten stades inland from Scandeia. The sanctuary of Aphrodite Urania (the Heavenly) is most holy, and it is the most ancient of all the sanctuaries of Aphrodite among the Greeks. The goddess herself is represented by an armed image of wood.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Pausanias. Pausanias Description of Greece with an English Translation by W.H.S. Jones, Litt.D., and H.A. Ormerod, M.A., in 4 Volumes. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1918&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why would the goddess of love, beauty, and procreation be armed? She wasn't exactly known for her military attributes. In fact, in [Book 5 of the Iliad][4] Zeus very bluntly dismisses her abilities as a warrior: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Of a surety now Cypris has been urging some one of the women of Achaea to follow after the Trojans, whom now she so wondrously loveth; and while stroking such a one of the fair-robed women of Achaea, she hath scratched upon her golden brooch her delicate hand.” So spake she, but the father of men and gods smiled, and calling to him golden Aphrodite, said: “Not unto thee, my child, are given works of war; nay, follow thou after the lovely works of marriage, and all these things shall be the business of swift Ares and Athene.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Homer. The Iliad with an English Translation by A.T. Murray, Ph.D. in two volumes. Cambridge, MA., Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann, Ltd. 1924.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was this militaristic version of Aphrodite a Lacedaemonian peculiarity? Could, perhaps, these images that are &quot;are as old as any in Greece&quot; be an allusion to Ishtar, an echo of Aphrodite's Mesopotamian origins?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0525.tlg001.perseus-eng1:3.15.10&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://data.perseus.org/citations/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0525.tlg001.perseus-eng1:3.17.5&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0525.tlg001.perseus-eng1:3.23.1&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0012.tlg001.perseus-eng1:5.416-5.459" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11513" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2857" RevisionGUID="1ab1f6fe-4640-4e36-8222-787615b19fcd" CreationDate="2017-08-25T03:06:11.237" UserId="3741" Comment="fixed typo" Text="Well, not many do anymore. I found this on a [question on the skeptics stack exchange][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Carolyn J. Marr] illustrates a change in Native Americans' attitudes towards photography from the late 19th to the early 20th century.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;At first, many Native Americans were wary of having their photographs taken and often refused. They believed that the process could steal a person's soul and disrespected the spiritual world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Over time, however, some Native Americans came to cherish photographs as links to ancestors and even integrated them into important ceremonies.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Historical Analysis and Interpretation: Photographs and Symbols][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As to why, the indigenous people didn't understand this technology. In their minds, they saw this as magic that could trap a person or an image inside something. Hence the idea that it would steal your soul. This is similar to the ideas of medieval peoples that found alien things magical and often evil (hence the witch hunts, even though they weren't as huge as they seem), I'm sure the reaction of a medieval person to photographs would be very similar. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/8380/did-some-cultures-believe-that-photography-can-steal-your-soul&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://web.archive.org/web/20091113050027/www.loc.gov/teachers/classroommaterials/connections/pacific/thinking3.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11514" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2869" RevisionGUID="cff5434e-7359-411b-acaa-618236bb7c7c" CreationDate="2017-08-25T16:11:57.440" UserId="967" Text="They seem to be described the same way (a long sea serpent that eats stuff), and are commonly compared to each other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any reasons there are so many parallels?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11515" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2869" RevisionGUID="cff5434e-7359-411b-acaa-618236bb7c7c" CreationDate="2017-08-25T16:11:57.440" UserId="967" Text="Why is the Loch Ness monster all the way from Scotland draw so many parallels with the Hawkesbury river monster?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11516" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2869" RevisionGUID="cff5434e-7359-411b-acaa-618236bb7c7c" CreationDate="2017-08-25T16:11:57.440" UserId="967" Text="|indigenous-australian|cryptozoology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11517" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2869" RevisionGUID="18c5f49c-658d-4bc3-975a-4af7c11da164" CreationDate="2017-08-25T16:23:30.613" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|indigenous-australian|cryptozoology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11518" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2870" RevisionGUID="706fd60c-0095-4a30-8d52-a278a1c8810d" CreationDate="2017-08-25T19:05:56.853" UserId="2892" Text="Haha.  great question on modern mythology!  *(I'd never even heard of the Hawkesbury River Monster.)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You might want to look into the ideas of [Carl Jung][1] regarding [archetypes][2]. &#xD;&#xA; He wrote a book [Flying Saucers:&#xD;&#xA;A Modern Myth of Things Seen in the Sky](http://press.princeton.edu/titles/691.html) which has been misrepresented by UFOlogists as a validation of beliefs regarding extra-terrestrials, **but is really exploration of the common symbols that occur in visions** people have when they experience such phenomena. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Remember that experience is *subjective*--we're in the realm of mythology, not science, but Jung is trying to find a rational basis for common experiences that are not strictly rational, and can't be explained in a scientific manner because there is still so much we don't understand about the mind. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The plesiosaur shape is one of the commonalities, but we don't really know how far back that goes.  The most likely explanation is that the plesiosaur idea arose after paleontologists started reconstructing dinosaur skeletons.  Before that, the frame of reference would have been dragons or other types of known, mythical creatures that fit into the aqueous environment. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you look at UFO mythology analytically, you'll notice that there is a feedback loop between science fiction and UFOlogy.  The initial conception of flying saucers was very similar to what one would see in early science fiction movies.  The more movies, the more UFO sightings. The conception evolves in both areas, and there is a cross-influence. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jung would say it all arises from the [Collective Unconscious][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;*From a more cynical perspective, there are also economic factors.  Nessie is a great tourist attraction, which boosts the local economy.  The Hawkesbury River Monster may be less famous, but could also be a tourist attraction, and forging a closer association with it's more famous cousin has economic benefits.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Jung&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archetype&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_unconscious" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11519" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2867" RevisionGUID="9d99bf76-cbb5-4112-8a63-b4d7e2043aa3" CreationDate="2017-08-25T19:07:46.293" UserId="2892" Comment="added 107 characters in body" Text="I've always thought it falls under Frazer's concept of [Sympathetic Magic][1].  In Ancient Greek, the idea of the lifeforce is bound with words related to breath or wind: [ψυχή][2] (psuke) and [πνεῦμα][3] (pneuma), specifically.  Thus, releasing the life force, or breath, from [Iphigenia][4]'s body raises the winds to sail to Troy.  Likewise with [Polyxena][5] for the ride back.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Euripides seems to have had something of an obsession with human sacrifice, as it is a subject of several of his plays, and even more if you consider Medea's act a form of human sacrifice.  ([She is whisked away by Helios in the end][6], so, as appalling as the act is to we humans, it did not earn her disfavor with her patron god.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My feeling with Polyxena in particular is that her spirit was much greater than the Greeks imagined—she shames them with her heroism in accepting her fate—which results in the storm that scatters the Greek fleet returning from Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_____________________________________________________________&#xD;&#xA;*Note: This is my own interpretation.  In the text themselves, it is simply an appeasement of gods or spirits who then allow the winds to blow.  In the case of Iphigenia, it's Artemis.  In the case of Polyxena, it's the ghost of Achilles.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.bartleby.com/196/5.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dyuxh%2F&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://%CF%80%CE%BD%CE%B5%E1%BF%A6%CE%BC%CE%B1&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iphigenia_in_Aulis&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyxena&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0114%3Acard%3D1293" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11520" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2846" RevisionGUID="88610b45-50b6-43e5-9e61-c2453ada09fd" CreationDate="2017-08-25T19:17:33.547" UserId="2892" Comment="Added folklore tag, and a proposed &quot;oral-tradition&quot; tag, which I know may be problematic.  " Text="|folklore|fairies|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11521" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2871" RevisionGUID="93fff353-7861-4696-a422-351eb5563d9f" CreationDate="2017-08-25T22:48:48.763" UserId="57" Text="The plot of the Australian television series *[Cleverman][1]* is centred around the struggles the mythological Hairypeople - or Hairies for short - face in co-existing with humans. Wikipedia describes these Hairies as &quot;stronger and hardier than humans, covered in thick facial and body hair, and have tough, sharp fingernails&quot;, and tells us the species was inspired by Aboriginal legends: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Hairypeople in Cleverman are inspired by Australian Aboriginal mythology of hairymen drawn from multiple Aboriginal peoples, including the Gamilaraay and Bundjalung people of northern New South Wales. In the series, they speak Kumbainggar, another language from northern New South Wales.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Cleverman. (2017, August 7). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 22:34, August 25, 2017, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cleverman&amp;oldid=794281184&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The one creature that I found that may have inspired the series' writes is the [Yowie][2] - but I don't think it quite fits. The Yowie is closer to an ape than to humans. Cleverman's Hairies, on the other hand, are nearly indistinguishable from humans once they shave.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do we know what legends inspired Cleverman's Hairypeople?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4649420/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yowie" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11522" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2871" RevisionGUID="93fff353-7861-4696-a422-351eb5563d9f" CreationDate="2017-08-25T22:48:48.763" UserId="57" Text="What legends inspired Cleverman's Hairypeople?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11523" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2871" RevisionGUID="93fff353-7861-4696-a422-351eb5563d9f" CreationDate="2017-08-25T22:48:48.763" UserId="57" Text="|indigenous-australian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11526" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="2858" RevisionGUID="0885c75b-2d72-46cf-9fd7-831d58f2f0f7" CreationDate="2017-08-26T09:46:08.980" UserId="57" Comment="49" />
  <row Id="11533" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2874" RevisionGUID="4fbd535c-cbd0-4724-b7d4-6304b0043136" CreationDate="2017-08-26T14:49:07.543" UserId="3989" Text="Homer nowhere mentions any sacrifice of Iphigenia, and debate is ancient on whether the &amp;ldquo;Iphianassa&amp;rdquo; whom Agamemnon offers as a potential bride to Achilles, at *Iliad* 9.145 &amp; 9.287, is the same person. Since nowhere have I found any hint that Achilles was necrophiliac, this offer clearly implies that the daughter in question was still alive so far as her father knew, nine years into the siege. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Agamemnon* of Aeschylus has the chorus remember the sacrifice of Iphigenia as completed, with the victim unwilling, bound and gagged lest an outcry from her bring misfortune. Throughout the *Oresteia* revenge for Iphigenia is represented as Clytaemestra&amp;rsquo;s primary motivation and justification for murdering her husband, with the concubinage of Cassandra just an insult added to injury, and hardly a justification for the act of a queen who was adulterous herself. (Bronze Age culture both in Greece and in Israel appears to have seen sexual promiscuity as culpable only in the female marriage partner.) The purpose of the sacrifice was to calm a persistent adverse wind from Thrace, understood as expressing the displeasure of Artemis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Euripides&amp;rsquo; *Iphigenia in Aulis* the ostensible purpose of the sacrifice is to bring a wind; the fleet is stuck for lack of any wind, not an adverse one, though the thousand ships are usually understood as having oars. The original ending to the play appears to be lost; what we have is a *Deus ex machina* rescue of the sacrificial victim, with animal substitution as in Genesis 22.11&amp;ndash;13. The lost ending was most likely similar: Euripides was notably fond of the *Deus ex machina,* and had earlier written *Iphigenia among the Taurians* premised on the title character&amp;rsquo;s having survived her ordeal at Aulis, not that that precedent would have been binding on him. (For this and other issues with the text, see the introduction to the Aulis play in the newer Loeb edition of Euripides by David Kovacs.) Earlier in the Aulis play, in what Aristotle hailed as a prime example of character growth and transformation in tragedy, Iphigenia had so far reconciled herself to the sacrifice as to become the willing victim that sanctity normally required.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Euripides&amp;rsquo; *Iphigenia in Aulis,* and even more prominently in Michael Cacoyannis&amp;rsquo; splendid 1977 film version of it, doubt is cast on whether there even are any gods (thanks, Protagoras), let alone a god who is demanding this utterly unheard-of and counter-cultural act. (This film, titled simply *Iphigenia*, is the source of most of the grainy moving images in the execrably snarky YouTube video linked from OP&amp;rsquo;s question.) It may well be just a plot cooked up between the wily and unscrupulous Odysseus (perhaps hoping for an early ticket home if Agamemnon refuses to go through with the sacrifice) and the seer Calchas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So ancient sources are kind of all over the map on this sacrifice, but throughout it is clear that human sacrifice is completely abnormal in ancient Greek/Mycenaean culture, as it was in ancient Hebrew culture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for Tantalus&amp;rsquo;s being in &amp;ldquo;Hell,&amp;rdquo; he is indeed shown in *Odyssey* 11.582&amp;ndash;92 as punished in the afterlife, though there is no separate afterlife-world for such punishments; but how would his great-grandsons know this years before Odysseus&amp;rsquo; visit to the realm of the dead? Did Heracles somehow report it out after his twelfth labor?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11534" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2874" RevisionGUID="453923ad-a15f-4f71-8898-9677bdaa9b03" CreationDate="2017-08-26T15:03:32.913" UserId="3989" Comment="added 333 characters in body" Text="Homer nowhere mentions any sacrifice of Iphigenia, and debate is ancient on whether the &amp;ldquo;Iphianassa&amp;rdquo; whom Agamemnon offers as a potential bride to Achilles, at *Iliad* 9.145 &amp; 9.287, is the same person. Since nowhere have I found any hint that Achilles was necrophiliac, this offer clearly implies that the daughter in question was still alive so far as her father knew, nine years into the siege. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Agamemnon* of Aeschylus has the chorus remember the sacrifice of Iphigenia as completed, with the victim unwilling, bound and gagged lest an outcry from her bring misfortune. Throughout the *Oresteia* revenge for Iphigenia is represented as Clytaemestra&amp;rsquo;s primary motivation and justification for murdering her husband, with the concubinage of Cassandra just an insult added to injury, and hardly a justification for the act of a queen who was adulterous herself. (Bronze Age culture both in Greece and in Israel appears to have seen sexual promiscuity as culpable only in the female marriage partner.) The purpose of the sacrifice was to calm a persistent adverse wind from Thrace, understood as expressing the displeasure of Artemis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Euripides&amp;rsquo; *Iphigenia in Aulis* the ostensible purpose of the sacrifice is to bring a wind; the fleet is stuck for lack of any wind, not an adverse one, though the thousand ships are usually understood as having oars. The original ending to the play appears to be lost; what we have is a *Deus ex machina* rescue of the sacrificial victim, with animal substitution as in Genesis 22.11&amp;ndash;13. The lost ending was most likely similar: Euripides was notably fond of the *Deus ex machina,* and had earlier written *Iphigenia among the Taurians* premised on the title character&amp;rsquo;s having survived her ordeal at Aulis, not that that precedent would have been binding on him. (For this and other issues with the text, see the introduction to the Aulis play in the newer Loeb edition of Euripides by David Kovacs.) Earlier in the Aulis play, in what Aristotle hailed as a prime example of character growth and transformation in tragedy, Iphigenia had so far reconciled herself to the sacrifice as to become the willing victim that sanctity normally required.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Euripides&amp;rsquo; *Iphigenia in Aulis,* and even more prominently in Michael Cacoyannis&amp;rsquo; splendid 1977 film version of it, doubt is cast on whether there even are any gods (thanks, Protagoras), let alone a god who is demanding this utterly unheard-of and counter-cultural act. (This film, titled simply *Iphigenia*, is the source of most of the grainy moving images in the execrably snarky YouTube video linked from OP&amp;rsquo;s question.) It may well be just a plot cooked up between the wily and unscrupulous Odysseus (perhaps hoping for an early ticket home if Agamemnon refuses to go through with the sacrifice) and the seer Calchas. By the end of the play and film, both Agamemnon and Menelaus have spoken against the sacrifice, joining Clytaemnestra and even the boy Orestes in opposition to it, but despite this family unanimity resistance is seen as futile, given the blood-lust of the army, which Agamemnon terms &amp;ldquo;the many-headed monster I command.&amp;rdquo;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So ancient sources are kind of all over the map on this sacrifice, but throughout it is clear that human sacrifice is completely abnormal in ancient Greek/Mycenaean culture, as it was in ancient Hebrew culture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for Tantalus&amp;rsquo;s being in &amp;ldquo;Hell,&amp;rdquo; he is indeed shown in *Odyssey* 11.582&amp;ndash;92 as punished in the afterlife, though there is no separate afterlife-world for such punishments; but how would his great-grandsons know this years before Odysseus&amp;rsquo; visit to the realm of the dead? Did Heracles somehow report it out after his twelfth labor?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11536" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2874" RevisionGUID="7062f2f0-ca13-4ead-b8cd-bd1a2cda67c0" CreationDate="2017-08-26T15:11:36.000" UserId="3989" Comment="added 333 characters in body" Text="Homer nowhere mentions any sacrifice of Iphigenia, and debate is ancient on whether the &amp;ldquo;Iphianassa&amp;rdquo; whom Agamemnon offers as a potential bride to Achilles, at *Iliad* 9.145 &amp; 9.287, is the same person. Since nowhere have I found any hint that Achilles was necrophiliac, this offer clearly implies that the daughter in question was still alive so far as her father knew, nine years into the siege. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Agamemnon* of Aeschylus has the chorus remember the sacrifice of Iphigenia as completed, with the victim unwilling, bound and gagged lest an outcry from her bring misfortune. Throughout the *Oresteia* revenge for Iphigenia is represented as Clytaemestra&amp;rsquo;s primary motivation and justification for murdering her husband, with the concubinage of Cassandra just an insult added to injury, and hardly a justification for the act of a queen who was adulterous herself. (Bronze Age culture both in Greece and in Israel appears to have seen sexual promiscuity as culpable only in the female marriage partner.) The purpose of the sacrifice was to calm a persistent adverse wind from Thrace, understood as expressing the displeasure of Artemis. Agamemnon himself is said to have &amp;ldquo;slipped his neck into the yoke-strap of Necessity&amp;rdquo; in this matter, a highly ambiguous phrase in relation to his willingness to go through with it, though [that part of the choral ode][1] goes on to make him out as willing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Euripides&amp;rsquo; *Iphigenia in Aulis* the ostensible purpose of the sacrifice is to bring a wind; the fleet is stuck for lack of any wind, not an adverse one, though the thousand ships are usually understood as having oars. The original ending to the play appears to be lost; what we have is a *Deus ex machina* rescue of the sacrificial victim, with animal substitution as in Genesis 22.11&amp;ndash;13. The lost ending was most likely similar: Euripides was notably fond of the *Deus ex machina,* and had earlier written *Iphigenia among the Taurians* premised on the title character&amp;rsquo;s having survived her ordeal at Aulis, not that that precedent would have been binding on him. (For this and other issues with the text, see the introduction to the Aulis play in the newer Loeb edition of Euripides by David Kovacs.) Earlier in the Aulis play, in what Aristotle hailed as a prime example of character growth and transformation in tragedy, Iphigenia had so far reconciled herself to the sacrifice as to become the willing victim that sanctity normally required.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Euripides&amp;rsquo; *Iphigenia in Aulis,* and even more prominently in Michael Cacoyannis&amp;rsquo; splendid 1977 film version of it, doubt is cast on whether there even are any gods (thanks, Protagoras), let alone a god who is demanding this utterly unheard-of and counter-cultural act. (This film, titled simply *Iphigenia*, is the source of most of the grainy moving images in the execrably snarky YouTube video linked from OP&amp;rsquo;s question.) It may well be just a plot cooked up between the wily and unscrupulous Odysseus (perhaps hoping for an early ticket home if Agamemnon refuses to go through with the sacrifice) and the seer Calchas. By the end of the play and film, both Agamemnon and Menelaus have spoken against the sacrifice, joining Clytaemnestra and even the boy Orestes in opposition to it, but despite this family unanimity resistance is seen as futile, given the blood-lust of the army, which Agamemnon terms &amp;ldquo;the many-headed monster I command.&amp;rdquo;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So ancient sources are kind of all over the map on this sacrifice, as on so many matters of myth; but throughout it is clear that human sacrifice is completely abnormal in ancient Greek/Mycenaean culture, as it was in ancient Hebrew culture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for Tantalus&amp;rsquo;s being in &amp;ldquo;Hell,&amp;rdquo; he is indeed shown in *Odyssey* 11.582&amp;ndash;92 as punished in the afterlife, though there is no separate afterlife-world for such punishments; but how would his great-grandsons know this years before Odysseus&amp;rsquo; visit to the realm of the dead? Did Heracles somehow report it out after his twelfth labor?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0004:card=218" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11537" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2874" RevisionGUID="78248591-8bc7-4411-9828-6540f642596d" CreationDate="2017-08-26T15:17:20.183" UserId="3989" Comment="added 333 characters in body" Text="Homer nowhere mentions any sacrifice of Iphigenia, and debate is ancient on whether the &amp;ldquo;Iphianassa&amp;rdquo; whom Agamemnon offers as a potential bride to Achilles, at *Iliad* 9.145 &amp; 9.287, is the same person. Since nowhere have I found any hint that Achilles was necrophiliac, this offer clearly implies that the daughter in question was still alive so far as her father knew, nine years into the siege. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Agamemnon* of Aeschylus has the chorus remember the sacrifice of Iphigenia as completed, with the victim unwilling, bound and gagged lest an outcry from her bring misfortune. Throughout the *Oresteia* revenge for Iphigenia is represented as Clytaemestra&amp;rsquo;s primary motivation and justification for murdering her husband, with the concubinage of Cassandra just an insult added to injury, and hardly a justification for the act of a queen who was adulterous herself. (Bronze Age culture both in Greece and in Israel appears to have seen sexual promiscuity as culpable only in the female marriage partner.) The purpose of the sacrifice was to calm a persistent adverse wind from Thrace, understood as expressing the displeasure of Artemis. Agamemnon himself is said to have &amp;ldquo;slipped his neck into the yoke-strap of Necessity&amp;rdquo; in this matter, a highly ambiguous phrase in relation to his willingness to go through with it, though [that part of the choral ode][1] goes on to make him out as willing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Euripides&amp;rsquo; *Iphigenia in Aulis* the ostensible purpose of the sacrifice is to bring a wind; the fleet is stuck for lack of any wind, not an adverse one, though the thousand ships are usually understood as having oars. The original ending to the play appears to be lost; what we have is a *Deus ex machina* rescue of the sacrificial victim, with animal substitution as in Genesis 22.11&amp;ndash;13. The lost ending was most likely similar: Euripides was notably fond of the *Deus ex machina,* and had earlier written *Iphigenia among the Taurians* premised on the title character&amp;rsquo;s having survived her ordeal at Aulis, not that that precedent would have been binding on him. (For this and other issues with the text, see the introduction to the Aulis play in the newer Loeb edition of Euripides by David Kovacs.) Earlier in the Aulis play, in what Aristotle hailed as a prime example of character growth and transformation in tragedy, Iphigenia had so far reconciled herself to the sacrifice as to become the willing victim that sanctity normally required.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Euripides&amp;rsquo; *Iphigenia in Aulis,* and even more prominently in Michael Cacoyannis&amp;rsquo; splendid 1977 film version of it, doubt is cast on whether there even are any gods (thanks, Protagoras), let alone a god who is demanding this utterly unheard-of and counter-cultural act. (This film, titled simply *Iphigenia*, is the source of most of the grainy moving images in the execrably snarky YouTube video linked from OP&amp;rsquo;s question. The film ends ambiguously, though most viewers interpret it as implying that the sacrifice was indeed carried out, with no miraculous animal substitution.) It may well be just a plot cooked up between the wily and unscrupulous Odysseus (perhaps hoping for an early ticket home if Agamemnon refuses to go through with the sacrifice) and the seer Calchas. By the end of the play and film, both Agamemnon and Menelaus have spoken against the sacrifice, joining Clytaemnestra and even the boy Orestes in opposition to it, but despite this family unanimity resistance is seen as futile, given the blood-lust of the army, which Agamemnon terms &amp;ldquo;the many-headed monster I command.&amp;rdquo;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So ancient sources are kind of all over the map on this sacrifice, as on so many matters of myth; but throughout it is clear that human sacrifice is completely abnormal in ancient Greek/Mycenaean culture, as it was in ancient Hebrew culture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for Tantalus&amp;rsquo;s being in &amp;ldquo;Hell,&amp;rdquo; he is indeed shown in *Odyssey* 11.582&amp;ndash;92 as punished in the afterlife, though there is no separate afterlife-world for such punishments; but how would his great-grandsons know this years before Odysseus&amp;rsquo; visit to the realm of the dead? Did Heracles somehow report it out after his twelfth labor?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0004:card=218" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11538" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2866" RevisionGUID="5ccc10dd-a06d-416d-8e2f-891110c724f4" CreationDate="2017-08-26T15:40:41.047" UserId="57" Comment="more specific title; minor spelling; removed excessive emphasis" Text="In the Greek drama (?) [Iphigenia][1], in order to be able to go on a war against Troy, the Greeks need wind, and for the wind, they need to sacrifice Agamemnon's daughter (the gods demand it). Menelaus wants him to **JUST DO IT!**, he's like: *&quot;Okay (screaming internally)&quot;*, but he does it in the end (the girl sacrifices herself).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Well I've got one question about this story:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why did the gods demanded a human sacrifice, after they've put the last guy, who played [soylent green][2] on them, in Hell? (Ya know, that [Tantalus guy][3])?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://youtu.be/ifFsKCrH3GM?list=PLDb22nlVXGgfwG1qbOtNgu897E_ky_8To&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://youtu.be/9IKVj4l5GU4?t=25&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantalus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11539" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2866" RevisionGUID="5ccc10dd-a06d-416d-8e2f-891110c724f4" CreationDate="2017-08-26T15:40:41.047" UserId="57" Comment="more specific title; minor spelling; removed excessive emphasis" Text="Why did the gods demanded Iphigenia's sacrifice?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11540" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2866" RevisionGUID="5ccc10dd-a06d-416d-8e2f-891110c724f4" CreationDate="2017-08-26T15:40:41.047" UserId="57" Comment="more specific title; minor spelling; removed excessive emphasis" Text="|greek|trojan-war|sacrifice|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11543" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2874" RevisionGUID="06a3121b-3f91-4370-8114-03d7a0ef8312" CreationDate="2017-08-26T20:12:26.910" UserId="3989" Comment="added 68 characters in body" Text="Homer nowhere mentions any sacrifice of Iphigenia, and debate is ancient on whether the &amp;ldquo;Iphianassa&amp;rdquo; whom Agamemnon offers as a potential bride to Achilles, at *Iliad* 9.145 &amp; 9.287, is the same person. Since nowhere have I found any hint that Achilles was necrophiliac, this offer clearly implies that the daughter in question was still alive so far as her father knew, nine years into the siege. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Agamemnon* of Aeschylus has the chorus remember the sacrifice of Iphigenia as completed, with the victim unwilling, bound and gagged lest an outcry from her bring misfortune. Throughout the *Oresteia* revenge for Iphigenia is represented as Clytaemestra&amp;rsquo;s primary motivation and justification for murdering her husband, with the concubinage of Cassandra just an insult added to injury, and hardly a justification for the act of a queen who was adulterous herself. (Bronze Age culture both in Greece and in Israel appears to have seen sexual promiscuity as culpable only in the female marriage partner.) The purpose of the sacrifice was to calm a persistent adverse wind from Thrace, understood as expressing the displeasure of Artemis. Agamemnon himself is said to have &amp;ldquo;slipped his neck into the yoke-strap of Necessity&amp;rdquo; in this matter, a highly ambiguous phrase in relation to his willingness to go through with it, though [that part of the choral ode][1] goes on to make him out as willing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Euripides&amp;rsquo; *Iphigenia in Aulis* the ostensible purpose of the sacrifice is to bring a wind; the fleet is stuck for lack of any wind, not an adverse one, though the thousand ships are usually understood as having oars. The original ending to the play appears to be lost; what we have is a *Deus ex machina* rescue of the sacrificial victim, with animal substitution as in Genesis 22.11&amp;ndash;13. The lost ending was most likely similar: Euripides was notably fond of the *Deus ex machina,* and had earlier written *Iphigenia among the Taurians* premised on the title character&amp;rsquo;s having survived her ordeal at Aulis, not that that precedent would have been binding on him. (For this and other issues with the text, see the introduction to the Aulis play in the newer Loeb edition of Euripides by David Kovacs.) Earlier in the Aulis play, in what Aristotle hailed as a prime example of character growth and transformation in tragedy, Iphigenia had so far reconciled herself to the sacrifice as to become the willing victim that sanctity normally required.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Euripides&amp;rsquo; *Iphigenia in Aulis,* and even more prominently in Michael Cacoyannis&amp;rsquo; splendid 1977 film version of it, doubt is cast on whether there even are any gods (thanks, Protagoras), let alone a god who is demanding this utterly unheard-of and counter-cultural act. (This film, titled simply *Iphigenia,* or ΙΦΙΓΕΝΕΙΑ, is the source of most of the grainy moving images in the execrably snarky YouTube video linked from OP&amp;rsquo;s question. The film ends ambiguously, though most viewers interpret it as implying that the sacrifice was indeed carried out, with no miraculous animal substitution, even though by that point a wind has started to blow.) It may well be just a plot cooked up between the wily and unscrupulous Odysseus (perhaps hoping for an early ticket home if Agamemnon refuses to go through with the sacrifice) and the seer Calchas. By the end of the play and film, both Agamemnon and Menelaus have spoken against the sacrifice, joining Clytaemnestra and even the boy Orestes in opposition to it, but despite this family unanimity resistance is seen as futile, given the blood-lust of the army, which Agamemnon terms &amp;ldquo;the many-headed monster I command.&amp;rdquo;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So ancient sources are kind of all over the map on this sacrifice, as on so many matters of myth; but throughout it is clear that human sacrifice is completely abnormal in ancient Greek/Mycenaean culture, as it was in ancient Hebrew culture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for Tantalus&amp;rsquo;s being in &amp;ldquo;Hell,&amp;rdquo; he is indeed shown in *Odyssey* 11.582&amp;ndash;92 as punished in the afterlife, though there is no separate afterlife-world for such punishments; but how would his great-grandsons know this years before Odysseus&amp;rsquo; visit to the realm of the dead? Did Heracles somehow report it out after his twelfth labor?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0004:card=218" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11544" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2874" RevisionGUID="0c0f1955-9bea-429f-8c2a-5142cd1b3c70" CreationDate="2017-08-26T20:22:11.950" UserId="3989" Comment="added 25 characters in body" Text="Homer nowhere mentions any sacrifice of Iphigenia, and debate is ancient on whether the &amp;ldquo;Iphianassa&amp;rdquo; whom Agamemnon offers as a potential bride to Achilles, at *Iliad* 9.145 &amp; 9.287, is the same person. Since nowhere have I found any hint that Achilles was necrophiliac, this offer clearly implies that the daughter in question was still alive so far as her father knew, nine years into the siege. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Agamemnon* of Aeschylus has the chorus remember the sacrifice of Iphigenia as completed, with the victim unwilling, bound and gagged lest an outcry from her bring misfortune. Throughout the *Oresteia* revenge for Iphigenia is represented as Clytaemestra&amp;rsquo;s primary motivation and justification for murdering her husband, with the concubinage of Cassandra just an insult added to injury, and hardly a justification for the act of a queen who was adulterous herself. (Bronze Age culture both in Greece and in Israel appears to have seen sexual promiscuity as culpable only in the female marriage partner.) The purpose of the sacrifice was to calm a persistent adverse wind from Thrace, understood as expressing the displeasure of Artemis. Agamemnon himself is said to have &amp;ldquo;plunged [his neck] into the yoke-strap of Necessity&amp;rdquo; [ἀνάγκας ἔδυ λέπαδνον] in this matter, a highly ambiguous phrase in relation to his willingness to go through with it, though [that part of the choral ode][1] goes on to make him out as willing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Euripides&amp;rsquo; *Iphigenia in Aulis* the ostensible purpose of the sacrifice is to bring a wind; the fleet is stuck for lack of any wind, not an adverse one, though the thousand ships are usually understood as having oars. The original ending to the play appears to be lost; what we have is a *Deus ex machina* rescue of the sacrificial victim, with animal substitution as in Genesis 22.11&amp;ndash;13. The lost ending was most likely similar: Euripides was notably fond of the *Deus ex machina,* and had earlier written *Iphigenia among the Taurians* premised on the title character&amp;rsquo;s having survived her ordeal at Aulis, not that that precedent would have been binding on him. (For this and other issues with the text, see the introduction to the Aulis play in the newer Loeb edition of Euripides by David Kovacs.) Earlier in the Aulis play, in what Aristotle hailed as a prime example of character growth and transformation in tragedy, Iphigenia had so far reconciled herself to the sacrifice as to become the willing victim that sanctity normally required.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Euripides&amp;rsquo; *Iphigenia in Aulis,* and even more prominently in Michael Cacoyannis&amp;rsquo; splendid 1977 film version of it, doubt is cast on whether there even are any gods (thanks, Protagoras), let alone a god who is demanding this utterly unheard-of and counter-cultural act. (This film, titled simply *Iphigenia,* or ΙΦΙΓΕΝΕΙΑ, is the source of most of the grainy moving images in the execrably snarky YouTube video linked from OP&amp;rsquo;s question. The film ends ambiguously, though most viewers interpret it as implying that the sacrifice was indeed carried out, with no miraculous animal substitution, even though by that point a wind has started to blow.) It may well be just a plot cooked up between the wily and unscrupulous Odysseus (perhaps hoping for an early ticket home if Agamemnon refuses to go through with the sacrifice) and the seer Calchas. By the end of the play and film, both Agamemnon and Menelaus have spoken against the sacrifice, joining Clytaemnestra and even the boy Orestes in opposition to it, but despite this family unanimity resistance is seen as futile, given the blood-lust of the army, which Agamemnon terms &amp;ldquo;the many-headed monster I command.&amp;rdquo;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So ancient sources are kind of all over the map on this sacrifice, as on so many matters of myth; but throughout it is clear that human sacrifice is completely abnormal in ancient Greek/Mycenaean culture, as it was in ancient Hebrew culture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for Tantalus&amp;rsquo;s being in &amp;ldquo;Hell,&amp;rdquo; he is indeed shown in *Odyssey* 11.582&amp;ndash;92 as punished in the afterlife, though there is no separate afterlife-world for such punishments; but how would his great-grandsons know this years before Odysseus&amp;rsquo; visit to the realm of the dead? Did Heracles somehow report it out after his twelfth labor?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0004:card=218" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11545" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2875" RevisionGUID="87ee7970-0e4f-4a74-8b81-830f957998bd" CreationDate="2017-08-26T22:59:06.350" UserId="57" Text="There are some very famous decade-long cycles in Greek epic poetry: Both the Titanomachy and the Trojan War lasted for ten years, and when the latter ended it took Odysseus another ten years to return from Troy to Ithaca.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To paraphrase Ian Fleming, &quot;Once is happenstance. Twice is a coincidence. Three times is a pattern&quot;. Is it though? I could not find other examples of ten year long cycles. Did the pattern hold past the works of Homer and Hesiod?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11546" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2875" RevisionGUID="87ee7970-0e4f-4a74-8b81-830f957998bd" CreationDate="2017-08-26T22:59:06.350" UserId="57" Text="What are some examples of ten year long cycles?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11547" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2875" RevisionGUID="87ee7970-0e4f-4a74-8b81-830f957998bd" CreationDate="2017-08-26T22:59:06.350" UserId="57" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11549" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2877" RevisionGUID="ce8a1568-f088-4298-ba1c-f2c47d4cb41d" CreationDate="2017-08-27T02:06:58.777" UserId="4105" Text="Zeus became king of the gods and ruler of the cosmos when he overthrew his father Cronus in the Titanomachy. Was his reign ever challenged after that?  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11550" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2877" RevisionGUID="ce8a1568-f088-4298-ba1c-f2c47d4cb41d" CreationDate="2017-08-27T02:06:58.777" UserId="4105" Text="Was the rule of Zeus ever challenged?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11551" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2877" RevisionGUID="ce8a1568-f088-4298-ba1c-f2c47d4cb41d" CreationDate="2017-08-27T02:06:58.777" UserId="4105" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11552" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2877" RevisionGUID="b325f36a-6d32-4e25-bb94-a911061cc80c" CreationDate="2017-08-27T02:28:00.240" UserId="4105" Comment="added 25 characters in body; edited tags" Text="Zeus became king of the gods and absolute ruler of the cosmos when he overthrew his father Cronus in the Titanomachy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I wonder if his reign was ever challenged after that?  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11553" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2877" RevisionGUID="b325f36a-6d32-4e25-bb94-a911061cc80c" CreationDate="2017-08-27T02:28:00.240" UserId="4105" Comment="added 25 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|greek|zeus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11557" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2878" RevisionGUID="720d9456-3af9-4ddf-884c-2898919c51c2" CreationDate="2017-08-27T07:20:50.553" UserId="2682" Text="**Between Battles at Thebes**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some time before the Trojan War, King Oidipous [Oedipus] of Thebes had two sons named Eteokles [Eteocles] and Polyneikes [Polynices] who had an agreement to share the throne of Thebes with each other. When they couldn't agree any more about this and Eteokles held control of the city, Polyneikes, with the help of six allies, besieged Thebes in a bloody conflict which ended in the deaths of both the quarrelling brothers as well as all six of Polyneikes' allies except one. The contest between Eteokles and Polyneikes came to be known as the war of the Seven Against Thebes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;King Adrastos [Adrastus] of Argos, the only one of the Seven to survive, later mobilised the sons of the Seven (his own son included among them), the so-called *Epigonoi* [Epigoni], in a new attack on Thebes. The enterprise of the Epigonoi took place ten years after the expedition of the Seven, and the sons succeeded where most of their fathers had perished.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Between a Duel and a War, and also: After the Death of a Prophet**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyllos [Hyllus] was the son of Herakles and Deianeira. After Herakles' death, Hyllos killed Herakles' enemy Eurystheus in battle. After this battle, Hyllos led his many brothers, the sons that Herakles had had with numerous women, in a bid to conquer Peloponnesos [Peloponnesus], which they saw as their birthright. Atreus, whose father Pelops had conquered Peloponnesos and named it after himself, was the prominent ruler in the region at the time. Atreus' sons Agamemnon and Menelaus would later become the leaders of the Greek expedition against Troy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Atreus struck a deal with the Herakleidai, &quot;Sons/Descendants of Herakles,&quot; in which they would decide the contest by single combat. The Herakleidai would choose a champion to fight on their behalf and if he was defeated, they would withdraw their claim to Peloponnesos for a period of fifty years thenceforward. Hyllos was the selected champion from among Herakles' sons. He fought against King Ekhemos [Echemus] of Arkadia [Arcadia] and was killed. The Trojan War is supposed to have begun ten years after the death of Hyllos.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A few generations later, a seer named Karnos [Carnus] was killed by Hippotes for his frenzied prophecies which seemed to be unfavourable to the mission of the Herakleidai. Hippotes was the son of Phylas, son of Antiokhos [Antiochus], son of Herakles. For this slaying, an oracle commanded the Herakleidai to banish Hippotes for ten years, which they did. The details of that story can be found in Apollodorus' [*Bibliotheka* 2.8.3](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Apollod.+2.8.3).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Misadventures of Young Helen** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Trojan War was sparked off when Queen Helen of Lakedaimon was abducted or seduced by Prince Paris of Troy. This was actually the second time that an abduction of Helen had precipitated a war. When Helen was still a child she was kidnapped by King Theseus of Athens, who kept her, under the care of his mother Aithra [Aethra], in the Attic town of Aphidnai. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Helen's two brothers eventually found her and, in their outrage at the kidnapping, sacked Aphidnai and would have destroyed Athens as well if Menestheus, a relative of Theseus, hadn't intervened so convincingly that they not only spared Athens but also made Menestheus the city's king in Theseus' stead. (Theseus was preoccupied in the Underworld at the time. Meanwhile Aithra became Helen's slave.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus says that Helen was twelve years old when Theseus stole her away. Diodorus Siculus, on the other hand, in his *Bibliotheka Historika* 4.63.2, says that the Lakedaimonian princess &quot;was only ten years of age&quot; at the time. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11558" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2878" RevisionGUID="4ad8971a-25ea-42a6-86ff-02850627ed35" CreationDate="2017-08-27T08:28:08.703" UserId="2682" Comment="added information" Text="**Between Battles at Thebes**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some time before the Trojan War, King Oidipous [Oedipus] of Thebes had two sons named Eteokles [Eteocles] and Polyneikes [Polynices] who had an agreement to share the throne of Thebes with each other. When they couldn't agree any more about this and Eteokles held control of the city, Polyneikes, with the help of six allies, besieged Thebes in a bloody conflict which ended in the deaths of both the quarrelling brothers as well as all six of Polyneikes' allies except one. The contest between Eteokles and Polyneikes came to be known as the war of the Seven Against Thebes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;King Adrastos [Adrastus] of Argos, the only one of the Seven to survive, later mobilised the sons of the Seven (his own son included among them), the so-called *Epigonoi* [Epigoni], in a new attack on Thebes. The enterprise of the Epigonoi took place ten years after the expedition of the Seven, and the sons succeeded where most of their fathers had perished.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Between a Duel and a War**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyllos [Hyllus] was the son of Herakles and Deianeira. After Herakles' death, Hyllos killed Herakles' enemy Eurystheus in battle. After this battle, Hyllos led his many brothers, the sons that Herakles had had with numerous women, in a bid to conquer Peloponnesos [Peloponnesus], which they saw as their birthright. Atreus, whose father Pelops had conquered Peloponnesos and named it after himself, was the prominent ruler in the region at the time. Atreus' sons Agamemnon and Menelaus would later become the leaders of the Greek expedition against Troy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Atreus struck a deal with the Herakleidai, &quot;Sons/Descendants of Herakles,&quot; in which they would decide the contest by single combat. The Herakleidai would choose a champion to fight on their behalf and if he was defeated, they would withdraw their claim to Peloponnesos for a period of fifty years thenceforward. Hyllos was the selected champion from among Herakles' sons. He fought against King Ekhemos [Echemus] of Arkadia [Arcadia] and was killed. The Trojan War is supposed to have begun ten years after the death of Hyllos.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Death of a Prophet**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A few generations later Hyllos' death, a seer named Karnos [Carnus] was killed by Hippotes for his frenzied prophecies which seemed to be unfavourable to the mission of the Herakleidai. Hippotes was the son of Phylas, son of Antiokhos [Antiochus], son of Herakles. For this slaying, an oracle commanded the Herakleidai to banish Hippotes for ten years, which they did. The details of that story can be found in Apollodorus' [*Bibliotheka* 2.8.3](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Apollod.+2.8.3).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Between Wars Among Ionians**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Five generations after the time of Hyllos, two groups of Ionians fought over the island of Samos. One group had been led there by Hyllos' descendant Prokles [Procles], whose son Leogoros ruled the island afterwards. War broke out between Leogoros and Androklos [Androclus], a descendant of King Neleus of Pylos. (Neleus had been killed by Herakles.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Androklos was the leader of another group of Ionians from Ephesos [Ephesus], and they expelled Leogoros and *his* Ionians from Samos. Leogoros fled to the mainland with his people but ten years later they came back and returned the favour, removing the Ephesian Ionians from the island.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Misadventures of Young Helen** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Trojan War was sparked off when Queen Helen of Lakedaimon was abducted or seduced by Prince Paris of Troy. This was actually the second time that an abduction of Helen had precipitated a war. When Helen was still a child she was kidnapped by King Theseus of Athens, who kept her, under the care of his mother Aithra [Aethra], in the Attic town of Aphidnai. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Helen's two brothers eventually found her and, in their outrage at the kidnapping, sacked Aphidnai and would have destroyed Athens as well if Menestheus, a relative of Theseus, hadn't intervened so convincingly that they not only spared Athens but also made Menestheus the city's king in Theseus' stead. (Theseus was preoccupied in the Underworld at the time. Meanwhile Aithra became Helen's slave.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus says that Helen was twelve years old when Theseus stole her away. Diodorus Siculus, on the other hand, in his *Bibliotheka Historika* 4.63.2, says that the Lakedaimonian princess &quot;was only ten years of age&quot; at the time. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Before Tragedy**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Euripides' tragedy *Andromakhe*, at the end of the Trojan War, Neoptolemos [Neoptolemus] took Hektor's [Hector's] widow Andromakhe [Andromache] as his prize from among the spoils. He took her with him to Thessaly where he treated her well and she bore him a son. After ten years in this relationship, he married Hermione, the daughter of Menelaus and Helen. Much mischief ensued as a result of Hermione's jealousy of Andromakhe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarly, according to Euripides' tragedy *Medeia*, Iason [Jason] and Medeia had lived happily as husband and wife in Korinthos [Corinth] for ten years before the city's king Kreon [Creon] offered Iason the hand of his daughter Glauke in marriage, on condition that he dissolve his marriage to Medeia and banish the two sons they had had. This led to the painful death of both Kreon and Glauke." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11560" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="2141" RevisionGUID="cf5c0189-9225-4e5a-96d1-4989c777408e" CreationDate="2017-08-27T11:04:25.180" UserId="57" Comment="50" />
  <row Id="11561" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="2141" RevisionGUID="91c1f160-4475-49b6-8147-7e30a849f5a4" CreationDate="2017-08-27T11:05:00.433" UserId="57" Comment="50" />
  <row Id="11562" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2879" RevisionGUID="7d8cdadd-5ca2-45cb-831e-dee09aef551f" CreationDate="2017-08-27T11:35:05.773" UserId="57" Text="I was surprised to find out that the concept of [totemism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totem) is present in Australian Aboriginal tales. Up until today, I was under the - obviously mistaken - impression that it was a concept unique to the indigenous cultures of the Americas. I find the fact that the same concept evolved in cultures so far apart absolutely fascinating, but I can't help but wonder how similar Australian Aboriginal totemism actually is to its more well known of Native American counterparts. The one interesting difference I found out about is that indigenous Australians didn't build totem poles. This makes sense, indigenous Australians are nomadic and monumental sculptures aren't very practical when you move around all the time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What other differences are there? How does Australian Aboriginal totemism compare to its Native American parallels?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11563" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2879" RevisionGUID="7d8cdadd-5ca2-45cb-831e-dee09aef551f" CreationDate="2017-08-27T11:35:05.773" UserId="57" Text="How does Australian Aboriginal totemism compare to its Native American parallels?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11564" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2879" RevisionGUID="7d8cdadd-5ca2-45cb-831e-dee09aef551f" CreationDate="2017-08-27T11:35:05.773" UserId="57" Text="|comparative|indigenous-australian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11565" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2880" RevisionGUID="55f17b46-ef95-4544-9ace-a9942adca86c" CreationDate="2017-08-27T11:46:42.447" UserId="57" Text="[Typhon][1], a serpentine giant, attempted to overthrow Zeus. The earliest account of their battle can be found in the Theogony, and according to Hesiod Typhon &quot;would have come to reign over mortals and immortals, had not the father of men and gods been quick to perceive it&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  But when Zeus had driven the Titans from heaven, huge Earth bore her youngest child Typhoeus of the love of Tartarus, by the aid of golden Aphrodite. Strength was with his hands in all that he did and the feet of the strong god were untiring. From his shoulders grew a hundred heads of a snake, a fearful dragon, with dark, flickering tongues, and from under the brows of his eyes in his marvellous heads flashed fire, and fire burned from his heads as he glared. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And there were voices in all his dreadful heads which uttered every kind of sound unspeakable; for at one time they made sounds such that the gods understood, but at another, the noise of a bull bellowing aloud in proud ungovernable fury; and at another, the sound of a lion, relentless of heart; and at another, sounds like whelps, wonderful to hear; and again, at another, he would hiss, so that the high mountains re-echoed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And truly a thing past help would have happened on that day, and he would have come to reign over mortals and immortals, had not the father of men and gods been quick to perceive it. But he thundered hard and mightily: and the earth around resounded terribly and the wide heaven above, and the sea and Ocean's streams and the nether parts of the earth. Great Olympus reeled beneath the divine feet of the king as he arose and earth groaned thereat. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And through the two of them heat took hold on the dark-blue sea, through the thunder and lightning, and through the fire from the monster, and the scorching winds and blazing thunderbolt. The whole earth seethed, and sky and sea: and the long waves raged along the beaches round and about at the rush of the deathless gods: and there arose an endless shaking. Hades trembled where he rules over the dead below, and the Titans under Tartarus who live with Cronos, because of the unending clamor and the fearful strife. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So when Zeus had raised up his might and seized his arms, thunder and lightning and lurid thunderbolt, he leaped from Olympus and struck him, and burned all the marvellous heads of the monster about him. But when Zeus had conquered him and lashed him with strokes, Typhoeus was hurled down, a maimed wreck, so that the huge earth groaned. And flame shot forth from the thunderstricken lord in the dim rugged glens of the mount, when he was smitten. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A great part of huge earth was scorched by the terrible vapor and melted as tin melts when heated by men's art in channelled crucibles; or as iron, which is hardest of all things, is shortened by glowing fire in mountain glens and melts in the divine earth through the strength of Hephaestus.Even so, then, the earth melted in the glow of the blazing fire. And in the bitterness of his anger Zeus cast him into wide Tartarus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Hesiod. The Homeric Hymns and Homerica with an English Translation by Hugh G. Evelyn-White. Theogony. Cambridge, MA.,Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1914.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhon&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0020.tlg001.perseus-eng1:820-852" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11566" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2881" RevisionGUID="f31f44db-5c1a-4a2c-abcc-5503939467ef" CreationDate="2017-08-27T11:48:19.070" UserId="4106" Text="Actualy, I think it's been mixed up. Achilles had the gift of being unharmable, and Hercules had the golden fur of the Neamean lion. That's all i can think about, and I absoluetly agree, that the lyricist has a big lack of knowledge, because even if we sing it like: Hercules and his gold, Achilles and his gifts, it's still okay with the song both musicaly, rythmicaly, and even poetically." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11567" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2880" RevisionGUID="f4b35cfd-41c7-4b55-b4c6-9c12b2d95326" CreationDate="2017-08-27T11:52:09.343" UserId="57" Comment="added 242 characters in body" Text="[Typhon][1], a serpentine giant, attempted to overthrow Zeus. The earliest account of their battle can be found in the Theogony, and according to Hesiod Typhon &quot;would have come to reign over mortals and immortals, had not the father of men and gods been quick to perceive it&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  But when Zeus had driven the Titans from heaven, huge Earth bore her youngest child Typhoeus of the love of Tartarus, by the aid of golden Aphrodite. Strength was with his hands in all that he did and the feet of the strong god were untiring. From his shoulders grew a hundred heads of a snake, a fearful dragon, with dark, flickering tongues, and from under the brows of his eyes in his marvellous heads flashed fire, and fire burned from his heads as he glared. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And there were voices in all his dreadful heads which uttered every kind of sound unspeakable; for at one time they made sounds such that the gods understood, but at another, the noise of a bull bellowing aloud in proud ungovernable fury; and at another, the sound of a lion, relentless of heart; and at another, sounds like whelps, wonderful to hear; and again, at another, he would hiss, so that the high mountains re-echoed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And truly a thing past help would have happened on that day, and he would have come to reign over mortals and immortals, had not the father of men and gods been quick to perceive it. But he thundered hard and mightily: and the earth around resounded terribly and the wide heaven above, and the sea and Ocean's streams and the nether parts of the earth. Great Olympus reeled beneath the divine feet of the king as he arose and earth groaned thereat. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And through the two of them heat took hold on the dark-blue sea, through the thunder and lightning, and through the fire from the monster, and the scorching winds and blazing thunderbolt. The whole earth seethed, and sky and sea: and the long waves raged along the beaches round and about at the rush of the deathless gods: and there arose an endless shaking. Hades trembled where he rules over the dead below, and the Titans under Tartarus who live with Cronos, because of the unending clamor and the fearful strife. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So when Zeus had raised up his might and seized his arms, thunder and lightning and lurid thunderbolt, he leaped from Olympus and struck him, and burned all the marvellous heads of the monster about him. But when Zeus had conquered him and lashed him with strokes, Typhoeus was hurled down, a maimed wreck, so that the huge earth groaned. And flame shot forth from the thunderstricken lord in the dim rugged glens of the mount, when he was smitten. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A great part of huge earth was scorched by the terrible vapor and melted as tin melts when heated by men's art in channelled crucibles; or as iron, which is hardest of all things, is shortened by glowing fire in mountain glens and melts in the divine earth through the strength of Hephaestus.Even so, then, the earth melted in the glow of the blazing fire. And in the bitterness of his anger Zeus cast him into wide Tartarus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Hesiod. The Homeric Hymns and Homerica with an English Translation by Hugh G. Evelyn-White. Theogony. Cambridge, MA.,Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1914.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interestingly, although Typhon's revolt threatened not only Zeus but all Olympians, this was a fight the thunder god fought alone. According to Pindar the rest of the gods transformed into animals and fled to Egypt to escape the battle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhon&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0020.tlg001.perseus-eng1:820-852" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11568" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2880" RevisionGUID="960c31f4-a04c-47e0-94ff-0975d9fdfddc" CreationDate="2017-08-27T12:10:13.393" UserId="57" Comment="added 57 characters in body" Text="[Typhon][1], a serpentine giant, attempted to overthrow Zeus. The earliest account of their battle can be found in the Theogony, and according to Hesiod Typhon &quot;would have come to reign over mortals and immortals, had not the father of men and gods been quick to perceive it&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  But when Zeus had driven the Titans from heaven, huge Earth bore her youngest child Typhoeus of the love of Tartarus, by the aid of golden Aphrodite. Strength was with his hands in all that he did and the feet of the strong god were untiring. From his shoulders grew a hundred heads of a snake, a fearful dragon, with dark, flickering tongues, and from under the brows of his eyes in his marvellous heads flashed fire, and fire burned from his heads as he glared. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And there were voices in all his dreadful heads which uttered every kind of sound unspeakable; for at one time they made sounds such that the gods understood, but at another, the noise of a bull bellowing aloud in proud ungovernable fury; and at another, the sound of a lion, relentless of heart; and at another, sounds like whelps, wonderful to hear; and again, at another, he would hiss, so that the high mountains re-echoed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And truly a thing past help would have happened on that day, and he would have come to reign over mortals and immortals, had not the father of men and gods been quick to perceive it. But he thundered hard and mightily: and the earth around resounded terribly and the wide heaven above, and the sea and Ocean's streams and the nether parts of the earth. Great Olympus reeled beneath the divine feet of the king as he arose and earth groaned thereat. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And through the two of them heat took hold on the dark-blue sea, through the thunder and lightning, and through the fire from the monster, and the scorching winds and blazing thunderbolt. The whole earth seethed, and sky and sea: and the long waves raged along the beaches round and about at the rush of the deathless gods: and there arose an endless shaking. Hades trembled where he rules over the dead below, and the Titans under Tartarus who live with Cronos, because of the unending clamor and the fearful strife. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So when Zeus had raised up his might and seized his arms, thunder and lightning and lurid thunderbolt, he leaped from Olympus and struck him, and burned all the marvellous heads of the monster about him. But when Zeus had conquered him and lashed him with strokes, Typhoeus was hurled down, a maimed wreck, so that the huge earth groaned. And flame shot forth from the thunderstricken lord in the dim rugged glens of the mount, when he was smitten. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A great part of huge earth was scorched by the terrible vapor and melted as tin melts when heated by men's art in channelled crucibles; or as iron, which is hardest of all things, is shortened by glowing fire in mountain glens and melts in the divine earth through the strength of Hephaestus.Even so, then, the earth melted in the glow of the blazing fire. And in the bitterness of his anger Zeus cast him into wide Tartarus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Hesiod. The Homeric Hymns and Homerica with an English Translation by Hugh G. Evelyn-White. Theogony. Cambridge, MA.,Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1914.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interestingly, although Typhon's revolt threatened not only Zeus but all Olympians, this was a fight the thunder god fought alone. Not only didn't the rest of the gods stand by their leader, but - at least according to Pindar - they transformed into animals and fled to Egypt to escape the battle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhon&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0020.tlg001.perseus-eng1:820-852" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11569" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2875" RevisionGUID="137262cd-154e-480c-b764-b19ca35f4fa5" CreationDate="2017-08-27T13:36:50.653" UserId="201" Comment="added hyphens to clarify adjective phrase" Text="What are some examples of ten-year-long cycles?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11570" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2880" RevisionGUID="064f932b-cfb8-4362-9a12-4e60c7089d85" CreationDate="2017-08-27T13:50:26.527" UserId="57" Comment="added 160 characters in body" Text="[Typhon][1], a serpentine giant, attempted to overthrow Zeus. The earliest account of their battle can be found in the Theogony, and according to Hesiod Typhon &quot;would have come to reign over mortals and immortals, had not the father of men and gods been quick to perceive it&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  But when Zeus had driven the Titans from heaven, huge Earth bore her youngest child Typhoeus of the love of Tartarus, by the aid of golden Aphrodite. Strength was with his hands in all that he did and the feet of the strong god were untiring. From his shoulders grew a hundred heads of a snake, a fearful dragon, with dark, flickering tongues, and from under the brows of his eyes in his marvellous heads flashed fire, and fire burned from his heads as he glared. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And there were voices in all his dreadful heads which uttered every kind of sound unspeakable; for at one time they made sounds such that the gods understood, but at another, the noise of a bull bellowing aloud in proud ungovernable fury; and at another, the sound of a lion, relentless of heart; and at another, sounds like whelps, wonderful to hear; and again, at another, he would hiss, so that the high mountains re-echoed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And truly a thing past help would have happened on that day, and he would have come to reign over mortals and immortals, had not the father of men and gods been quick to perceive it. But he thundered hard and mightily: and the earth around resounded terribly and the wide heaven above, and the sea and Ocean's streams and the nether parts of the earth. Great Olympus reeled beneath the divine feet of the king as he arose and earth groaned thereat. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And through the two of them heat took hold on the dark-blue sea, through the thunder and lightning, and through the fire from the monster, and the scorching winds and blazing thunderbolt. The whole earth seethed, and sky and sea: and the long waves raged along the beaches round and about at the rush of the deathless gods: and there arose an endless shaking. Hades trembled where he rules over the dead below, and the Titans under Tartarus who live with Cronos, because of the unending clamor and the fearful strife. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So when Zeus had raised up his might and seized his arms, thunder and lightning and lurid thunderbolt, he leaped from Olympus and struck him, and burned all the marvellous heads of the monster about him. But when Zeus had conquered him and lashed him with strokes, Typhoeus was hurled down, a maimed wreck, so that the huge earth groaned. And flame shot forth from the thunderstricken lord in the dim rugged glens of the mount, when he was smitten. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A great part of huge earth was scorched by the terrible vapor and melted as tin melts when heated by men's art in channelled crucibles; or as iron, which is hardest of all things, is shortened by glowing fire in mountain glens and melts in the divine earth through the strength of Hephaestus.Even so, then, the earth melted in the glow of the blazing fire. And in the bitterness of his anger Zeus cast him into wide Tartarus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Hesiod. The Homeric Hymns and Homerica with an English Translation by Hugh G. Evelyn-White. Theogony. Cambridge, MA.,Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1914.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interestingly, although Typhon's revolt threatened not only Zeus but all Olympians, this was a fight the thunder god fought alone. Not only didn't the rest of the gods stand by their leader, but - at least according to Pindar and Pseudo-Apollodorus - they transformed into animals and fled to Egypt to escape the battle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You may find more information on Typhon on theoi.com: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Part 1: Introduction &amp; Myths][2]&#xD;&#xA;- [Part 2: Zeus &amp; Typhoeus (Story from Nonnus' Dionysiaca)][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhon&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Gigante/Typhoeus.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theoi.com/Gigante/Typhoeus2.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11571" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2882" RevisionGUID="f881fa4a-de65-458f-bc0b-f4fff165e612" CreationDate="2017-08-27T16:20:26.823" UserId="4107" Text="Sorry if this is not the correct place to ask this, please let me know and I will move the question elsewhere.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While browsing today I came upon this symbol tagged as duality, but I am unable to identify it. Does anybody recognize where this comes from (I would basically like to know if this is part of a culture/religion or just something an artist doodled)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/otnI1.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11572" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2882" RevisionGUID="f881fa4a-de65-458f-bc0b-f4fff165e612" CreationDate="2017-08-27T16:20:26.823" UserId="4107" Text="Trouble idetifying a 'duality' symbol" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11573" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2882" RevisionGUID="f881fa4a-de65-458f-bc0b-f4fff165e612" CreationDate="2017-08-27T16:20:26.823" UserId="4107" Text="|symbolism+|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11574" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2882" RevisionGUID="f6624d24-e945-4857-928c-d5d0e7bc6b31" CreationDate="2017-08-27T16:28:43.633" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 141 characters in body; edited title" Text="While browsing today I came upon this symbol tagged as duality, but I am unable to identify it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does anybody recognize where this symbol comes from? Is it part of a culture/religion or just something an artist doodled?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/otnI1.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11575" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2882" RevisionGUID="f6624d24-e945-4857-928c-d5d0e7bc6b31" CreationDate="2017-08-27T16:28:43.633" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 141 characters in body; edited title" Text="What culture does this duality symbol belong to?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11576" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2883" RevisionGUID="beeb9233-0627-4b2e-9a23-c4136bff58a3" CreationDate="2017-08-27T16:35:48.063" UserId="57" Text="I don't think it would be possible to know for certain unless we ask the artist who drew it, but the symbol looks like a very simplified version of the Chinese [taijitu][1],  the &quot;[yin and yang symbol][2]&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![yin and yang symbol][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taijitu&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Zi745.png&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/3bX4u.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11577" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2884" RevisionGUID="cd0cd9e4-20b6-4daa-b44a-8424858ccaee" CreationDate="2017-08-27T17:11:03.467" UserId="3230" Text="From Revelation 17 (KJ21): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;10&lt;/sup&gt; And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other has not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;11&lt;/sup&gt; And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, yet is one of the seven and goeth into perdition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who are these seven kings, that precede Satan?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11578" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2884" RevisionGUID="cd0cd9e4-20b6-4daa-b44a-8424858ccaee" CreationDate="2017-08-27T17:11:03.467" UserId="3230" Text="Who are the seven kings of Revelation?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11579" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2884" RevisionGUID="cd0cd9e4-20b6-4daa-b44a-8424858ccaee" CreationDate="2017-08-27T17:11:03.467" UserId="3230" Text="|christianity|revelation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11585" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2885" RevisionGUID="d1182590-5868-478c-b43b-412498ce0d93" CreationDate="2017-08-27T18:30:16.500" UserId="292" Text="In the *[Illiad][1]*, Hera rebels against Zeus, and gets the other gods to bind him to his throne after she drugs him:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;You [Thetis] said you only among the immortals beat aside shameful&#xD;&#xA;&gt; destruction from Kronos' son [Zeus] the dark-misted, that time when&#xD;&#xA;&gt; all the other Olympian gods sought to bind him, Hera and Poseidon and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pallas Athene. Then you, goddess, went and set him free from his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shackles, summoning in speed the creature of the hundred hands to tall&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Olympos, that creature the gods name Briareos, but all men Aigaios'&#xD;&#xA;&gt; son, but he is far greater in strength than his father. He rejoicing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in the glory of it sat down by Kronion, and the rest of the blessed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gods were frightened and gave up binding him.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;I found this on Theoi.com, which also quotes the *Argonautica* on how Zeus hung his wife from the vault of heaven by her hair, with anvils attached to her feet, as punishment.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/HeraMyths.html#Binding" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11586" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2747" RevisionGUID="89cc4434-a857-444c-973c-73cc34c05ef1" CreationDate="2017-08-27T22:05:45.090" UserId="3947" Comment="added 8 characters in body" Text="The word &quot;hell&quot; came into existence sometime before 900 AD/CE. It is from the &quot;Middle [and] Old English hel(l); cognate with Old High German hell(i)a (German Hölle), Old Norse hel, [and] Gothic halja&quot;. [&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;](http://www.dictionary.com/browse/hell?s=t)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Being that the first English translation of the Bible was written (by John Wycliffe) in 1380's,[&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;](http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/) the word hell was already in use by then. Just as the apostles didn't create a new word to describe hell but instead used common words like Hades and Tartarus, early translators may have decided to use the already common word hell to help the people understand the Scriptures and not be as confused." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11590" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2855" RevisionGUID="342c7c99-97a4-401d-9745-00a6f4af31f8" CreationDate="2017-08-27T23:46:52.477" UserId="4105" Comment="indians -&gt; native americans, corrected grammar" Text="Native Americans, including some from here, Brazil, are afraid of photos. They don't like it when you take pictures of them because they think that you are stealing their souls. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why do they think that?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11591" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2855" RevisionGUID="342c7c99-97a4-401d-9745-00a6f4af31f8" CreationDate="2017-08-27T23:46:52.477" UserId="4105" Comment="indians -&gt; native americans, corrected grammar" Text="Why do Native Americans think photographs steals their souls?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11592" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2855" RevisionGUID="342c7c99-97a4-401d-9745-00a6f4af31f8" CreationDate="2017-08-27T23:46:52.477" UserId="4105" Comment="indians -&gt; native americans, corrected grammar" Text="|native-american|superstition|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11593" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2855" RevisionGUID="342c7c99-97a4-401d-9745-00a6f4af31f8" CreationDate="2017-08-27T23:46:52.477" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 57 edit id of 463" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11594" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2816" RevisionGUID="058aa6a1-8d5b-4ca3-a6b2-3be2949365a6" CreationDate="2017-08-27T23:47:09.120" UserId="4105" Comment="spelling and grammar" Text="Depends if you are interested in scholarly approach or general approach.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;General approach&#xD;&#xA;----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In those books, I range those who are both fun and informative, while not being horrible 600+ pages books without illustration in 10 size fonts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The everything classical mythology][1], affordable and fun to read; Offers a cover of the Greeks myth from the Gigantomachy up to Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The complete idiot's guide to mythology][2]. Another fairly simple and fun book to read. it's an Idiot's guide so don't expect too much, but nice.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Classical mythology &amp; more][3]. Another good and easy entry level book. This one, contrary to the first two, actually cites a lot of sources, and the juicy passages. this is overall a damn fairly good and solid book while of easy access. Note also it is designed with teaching in mind so in a way fairly great for a learner (there is little exercises at the end of each chapter).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[D'Aulaire's Greek myth][4] Fairly classical, not especially my recommendation. If you love the way the D'Aulaire's are working you can check the wonderful graphic novel [Odysseus][5]. There is a full series covering lots of myth, I would favor those over d'Aulaire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Scholar approach&#xD;&#xA;----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Those books are if you are interested. Lots of texts, few images, this is the fairly serious matter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Early Greek myth][6], Timothy Gantz, you have everything there, sources, literacy; this is the defacto starting book. There are 2 volumes, and definitely NOT a beginner's guide. If you want a gentle introduction, refer to my general section.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Greek religion][7] by Walter Burkert. Just note the author is German, and I pointed you to a translation. Burkert IS a must read, providing the subject interest you. Another extremely good one to read is *Structure and history in Greek mythology*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Art and myth in ancient Greece][8] T.H Carpenter, which offers a beautiful reading of myths and arts, here and there you see me using arts or hieroglyphs to explain this or that. While not a compendium, that is a fairly useful tool for you. Even Gantz or Burkert are not especially art oriented.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Greek mythology, an introduction][9] by Fritz Graf, another German guy (learning German when you love myth is FAR from a bad idea, fact is learning English, German and French is pretty smart). This is less aggressive than Grantz (only 300 pages) but still should be read.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Metamorphoses][10] by Ovid, if you are looking for THE reference, you have it. Not only it is filled up to the root with mythologies BUT, cherry on the cake, it is one of the best poets on Earth who wrote it... you find there lots of alternate versions (read the myth of Romulus and Remus to see Ovid's giving you his opinion with subtlety)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Penguin's dictionary][11] it's some Penguin's material, solid, well written a good source and reference.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can add DukeZhou's Hamilton &amp;&amp; Oxford book.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To avoid&#xD;&#xA;--------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[the Greek myth][12] by Bob Graves. Lack of seriousness for the myth part and for the poetic aspect I would pick Ovid anytime. Quite cited here and there (especially here). If you have time, only (I just gave you 4000 pages. Not to mention the Greek/Roman authors. Come to me after Homer, Hesiod, Herodotus, Thucydides, Plato and Plutarch... Roughly 10k pages before Graves).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.amazon.fr/Everything-Classical-Mythology-Book-Goddesses/dp/158062653X&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Classical-Mythology-Lifestyle-Paperback/dp/1592572898&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.amazon.com/Classical-Mythology-More-Reader-Workbook/dp/0865165734&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.amazon.com/DAulaires-Greek-Myths-Ingri-dAulaire/dp/0440406943&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.amazon.com/Odysseus-Escaping-Poseidons-Graphic-Paperback/dp/0822585154&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.amazon.com/Early-Greek-Myth-Literary-Artistic/dp/0801853605&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.amazon.com/Greek-Religion-Walter-Burkert/dp/0674362810&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.amazon.com/Art-Myth-Ancient-Greece-World/dp/0500202362&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://www.amazon.com/Greek-Mythology-Introduction-Fritz-Graf/dp/0801853958&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://www.amazon.com/Metamorphoses-Oxford-Worlds-Classics-Ovid/dp/0199537372&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://www.amazon.com/Penguin-Dictionary-Classical-Mythology/dp/0140512357&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://www.amazon.com/Greek-Myths-Complete-Definitive/dp/0241952743" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11595" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2816" RevisionGUID="058aa6a1-8d5b-4ca3-a6b2-3be2949365a6" CreationDate="2017-08-27T23:47:09.120" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 57 edit id of 464" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11596" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2522" RevisionGUID="42b8d93f-1ef4-4d65-8c04-9db74c744024" CreationDate="2017-08-27T23:47:17.513" UserId="3230" Comment="formatting" Text="Well the only ones I know of that you could count are all Greek:   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Aether: the primordial god of the upper air, light, the atmosphere, space and heaven.&#xD;&#xA;- Atlas: the primordial titan of astronomy condemned by Zeus to carry the world on his back after the Titans lost the war.&#xD;&#xA;- Astraios/Astraeus: the Titan of astrology, he was god of the dusk the stars and planets and of the art of astrology some also associate him with the winds." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11597" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2522" RevisionGUID="42b8d93f-1ef4-4d65-8c04-9db74c744024" CreationDate="2017-08-27T23:47:17.513" Comment="Proposed by 3230 approved by 292, 57 edit id of 461" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11598" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2864" RevisionGUID="3ea7475c-4aa3-4070-9bd1-7561ef4669f1" CreationDate="2017-08-27T23:47:34.760" UserId="4105" Comment="corrected spelling, formatting" Text="As usual, if you remove the little-simplified version of the BBC, the story they are talking about is &quot;the Storm God and the serpent&quot;. but first:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;the Hittites&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Hittites are an old civilization running through the 2000BC - 1000 BC period. Factually they are great enough to have stopped Ramses II, potentially the most powerful pharaoh ever. Their capital was Hattusa which has been unearthed near the small village of Boğazköy, hence you will find people talking either of Hattusa or Boğazköy (I am always using Hattusa).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The general relationship between the &quot;Hittite area&quot; and the Golden Fleece is suspected from the Greeks themselves, as here noticed by Herodotus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 7-26: In any case, after crossing the Halys River,  [the army of King&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Xerxes] entered Phrygia, and on their way through the country they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; arrived at Kelaini [...] It is in this city that the skin of Marsyas&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Silenus is suspended [...] It was hung there after Marsyas was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; flayed by Appolo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Storm God and the Serpent&#xD;&#xA;-----------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You will find this story under a lot of name. Hittites was made of a bunch of civilizations, talking different languages (and writing either in cuneiform or hieroglyph as the Luwian language) and it is reflected here. the Storm God will so be:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Teshub in Hurrian&#xD;&#xA; - Taru for the Anatolian&#xD;&#xA; - The Storm God for the Hittite (dU in Cuneiform, the &quot;d&quot; being an apposition meaning &quot;god&quot;,, a star in cuneiform)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the same level the Serpent is:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The Serpent&#xD;&#xA; - Illuyanka, which means... serpent in Hittite...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So you will find this story as &quot;Teshub and Illuyanka&quot;, Taru and the snake dragon, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are 2 versions of this story I will shortly describe the second one first:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Second version&#xD;&#xA;=============&#xD;&#xA;Lord Teshub is beaten by Illuyanka who take his heart and eye. Teshud marries the daughter of a poor man and sire a son. This son espouses the daughter of Illuyanka. Teshub asking him to get back his Heart and eye. Which he is finally obtaining. Teshub then attacks Illuyanka and kills him, his son coming to him as begging him to kill him with his new family.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I cited this story because of its close connection with Apollodorus's depiction of Typhon vs Zeus. you have the same core elements: Zeus/Teshub defeated and amputated, they both come back and kick the sorry ass of their arsonists.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First version&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first version is older (for sure) and goes like that (translation by Gary Beckman):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When Teshub and Illuyanka fought each other in the city of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kishkilushsha, Illuyanka vanquished Teshub.&lt;BR&gt; [Inara](GB: Inara is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Teshub's daughter, Medea here) prepared everything in great&#xD;&#xA;&gt; quantity[...] In the vessels she made abundance. Inara went to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; city of Ziggaratta and she found Khupashiya (GB: here is Jason), a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mortal[...] &quot;I am about to do such and such thing, come with me&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thusly Khupashiya to Inara &quot;If I may sleep with you, then I will come&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and I will do that of you heart&quot;[...]&lt;BR&gt; Inara led Khupashiya away&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and she concealed him. Inara dressed herself up, and she invited&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Illuyanka [...] So [he] came along with his sons and they ate and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; drank [...] They did not want to go down into the lair again.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Khupashiya came and tied up the serpent with a rope. Teshub came and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; killed Illuyanka.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you can see the story is going like that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An obvious goddess (Medea/Inara) is falling in love with a powerful mortal warrior (Jason/Khupashiya), and help him get rid of a mighty &quot;dragon&quot;. Potentially he is later killed (unfortunately the Hittite text, destroyed is not clear).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Walter Burkert talked about that in his fairly excellent *Structure and history in Greek Mythology and Ritual*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (page 10) Recently, Volkert Haas [GB: the book is incorrectly spelling&#xD;&#xA;Volker instead of Volkert] has drawn attention to quite another&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greek myth which bears a surprising resemblance to the Illuyankas myth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as told in the &quot;older&quot; version [GB: what I called here the first version]: Jason and Medea. Here, as there, a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; goddess - there can be no doubt about Medea's divine status - takes a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mortal man as her lover and the two cooperate to overcome the dragon;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; but then the mortal man turns away from his superior spouse, and his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; destroyed in consequence [GB: Burkert's personal interpretation&#xD;&#xA;&gt; here. The Hittite text says nothing about Khupashiya's death] [...]&lt;BR&gt; I do not think this can be coincidence. But in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; spite of the suggestive parallels, it turns out to be impossible to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; integrate the Hittite and the Greek tales into one: on the Greek side&#xD;&#xA;&gt; there is nothing like the characteristic duality of champion and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; helper; thus the whole frame of the combat myth will not fit; on the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; other side, the fleeces, though well attested in Hittite Ritual, do&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not enter into the tale, whereas the Golden Fleece is the very goal of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jason's expedition. [GB: Factually the fleece appears in other stories&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as Telipinu's one... hence my comments, I thought Illuyanka story was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; part of a &quot;Telipinu's matter&quot;]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Generally speaking people specialized (or interested) in Near East old civilization have noticed the fairly strange similitudes between Greek myths and some Near East counterparts:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The cycle of Kumarbi with the beginning of Hesiod's Theogony&#xD;&#xA; - Ishtar episode in the tablet 6 of the Epic of Gilgamesh with Aphrodite's affair in the song 5 of the Iliad&#xD;&#xA; - Zeus loves with Hera in song 14 of the Iliad with the Enuma Elish&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does not means that one has not to be careful with hurried conclusions." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11599" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2864" RevisionGUID="3ea7475c-4aa3-4070-9bd1-7561ef4669f1" CreationDate="2017-08-27T23:47:34.760" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 57 edit id of 462" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11600" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1184" RevisionGUID="c3855b63-80ab-4158-a50f-f22bbf1ff4f7" CreationDate="2017-08-28T01:05:16.380" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|translation|kalevala|finnish|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11601" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2553" RevisionGUID="555c018f-339a-41b9-8a96-f31f3f092c64" CreationDate="2017-08-28T01:05:38.057" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|kalevala|finnish|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11602" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1055" RevisionGUID="237db5a8-abe6-4165-99d0-82c16cb8b371" CreationDate="2017-08-28T01:05:49.450" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|creation|kalevala|finnish|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11603" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2886" RevisionGUID="b1d49111-bbcf-423a-bcfb-f5ee14e9236b" CreationDate="2017-08-28T01:17:42.273" UserId="57" Text="I was reading up on Finish mythology when I came across this interesting tidbit: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It wasn't until the 16th century that anyone tried to write down some of these stories. A bishop named Mikael Agricola created a list of the most important gods in Finnish mythology, but there was something fishy about the list. He identified 12 gods, and that also happens to be the number of gods in the Greek pantheon. It seems that Agricola decided that Finnish mythology should look like Greek mythology, so he got to pick and choose which gods to include, which to forget, and which were the most important. So, we can never be too sure what was part of the original folklore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Finnish Mythology: Creation &amp; Stories][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which gods did [Mikael Agricola][2] include on his list? Which ones did he omit? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://study.com/academy/lesson/finnish-mythology-creation-stories.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikael_Agricola" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11604" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2886" RevisionGUID="b1d49111-bbcf-423a-bcfb-f5ee14e9236b" CreationDate="2017-08-28T01:17:42.273" UserId="57" Text="Which gods were in Mikael Agricola's list?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11605" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2886" RevisionGUID="b1d49111-bbcf-423a-bcfb-f5ee14e9236b" CreationDate="2017-08-28T01:17:42.273" UserId="57" Text="|pantheon|finnish|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11606" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2816" RevisionGUID="f21c20d0-bbdf-48b3-af90-def8168269c6" CreationDate="2017-08-28T06:51:54.427" UserId="2774" Comment="added 17 characters in body" Text="Depends if you are interested in scholarly approach or general approach.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;General approach&#xD;&#xA;----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In those books, I range those who are both fun and informative, while not being horrible 600+ pages books without illustration in 10 size fonts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The everything classical mythology][1], affordable and fun to read; Offers a cover of the Greeks myth from the Gigantomachy up to Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The complete idiot's guide to mythology][2]. Another fairly simple and fun book to read. it's an Idiot's guide so don't expect too much, but nice.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Classical mythology &amp; more][3]. Another good and easy entry level book. This one, contrary to the first two, actually cites a lot of sources, and the juicy passages. this is overall a damn fairly good and solid book while of easy access. Note also it is designed with teaching in mind so in a way fairly great for a learner (there is little exercises at the end of each chapter).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[D'Aulaire's Greek myth][4] Fairly classical, not especially my recommendation. If you love the way the D'Aulaire's are working you can check the wonderful graphic novels, as for example [Odysseus][5]. There is a full series covering lots of myth, I would favor those over D'Aulaire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Scholar approach&#xD;&#xA;----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Those books are if you are interested. Lots of texts, few images, this is the fairly serious matter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Early Greek myth][6], Timothy Gantz, you have everything there, sources, literacy; this is the defacto starting book. There are 2 volumes, and definitely NOT a beginner's guide. If you want a gentle introduction, refer to my general section.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Greek religion][7] by Walter Burkert. Just note the author is German, and I pointed you to a translation. Burkert IS a must read, providing the subject interest you. Another extremely good one to read is *Structure and history in Greek mythology*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Art and myth in ancient Greece][8] T.H Carpenter, which offers a beautiful reading of myths and arts, here and there you see me using arts or hieroglyphs to explain this or that. While not a compendium, that is a fairly useful tool for you. Even Gantz or Burkert are not especially art oriented.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Greek mythology, an introduction][9] by Fritz Graf, another German guy (learning German when you love myth is FAR from a bad idea, fact is learning English, German and French is pretty smart). This is less aggressive than Grantz (only 300 pages) but still should be read.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Metamorphoses][10] by Ovid, if you are looking for THE reference, you have it. Not only it is filled up to the root with mythologies BUT, cherry on the cake, it is one of the best poets on Earth who wrote it... you find there lots of alternate versions (read the myth of Romulus and Remus to see Ovid's giving you his opinion with subtlety)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Penguin's dictionary][11] it's some Penguin's material, solid, well written a good source and reference.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can add DukeZhou's Hamilton &amp;&amp; Oxford book.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To avoid&#xD;&#xA;--------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[the Greek myth][12] by Bob Graves. Lack of seriousness for the myth part and for the poetic aspect I would pick Ovid anytime. Quite cited here and there (especially here). If you have time, only (I just gave you 4000 pages. Not to mention the Greek/Roman authors. Come to me after Homer, Hesiod, Herodotus, Thucydides, Plato and Plutarch... Roughly 10k pages before Graves).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.amazon.fr/Everything-Classical-Mythology-Book-Goddesses/dp/158062653X&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Classical-Mythology-Lifestyle-Paperback/dp/1592572898&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.amazon.com/Classical-Mythology-More-Reader-Workbook/dp/0865165734&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.amazon.com/DAulaires-Greek-Myths-Ingri-dAulaire/dp/0440406943&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.amazon.com/Odysseus-Escaping-Poseidons-Graphic-Paperback/dp/0822585154&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.amazon.com/Early-Greek-Myth-Literary-Artistic/dp/0801853605&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.amazon.com/Greek-Religion-Walter-Burkert/dp/0674362810&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.amazon.com/Art-Myth-Ancient-Greece-World/dp/0500202362&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://www.amazon.com/Greek-Mythology-Introduction-Fritz-Graf/dp/0801853958&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://www.amazon.com/Metamorphoses-Oxford-Worlds-Classics-Ovid/dp/0199537372&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://www.amazon.com/Penguin-Dictionary-Classical-Mythology/dp/0140512357&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://www.amazon.com/Greek-Myths-Complete-Definitive/dp/0241952743" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11607" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1924" RevisionGUID="e58ce322-eba0-47b9-86e5-dcab7cd02d2a" CreationDate="2017-08-28T06:59:04.437" UserId="4105" Comment="spelling and grammar" Text="What we know of those myths has been written at a time Germans/Nordics are totally evangelized. An you can clearly see two traditions at work. One is the folk tradition behind those myths. the other is the Christian religion. Contrary to let say Egyptians, or mostly old Romans, where we have access to the raw myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And you can clearly see Loki, Baldr and the Ragnarok are so much tainted with the Christian feeling you can only take some gaze at them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Compare this biblical episode (John 8-11):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  “Teacher,” they said to Jesus, “this woman was caught in the act of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; adultery. 5 The law of Moses says to stone her. What do you say?”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 6 They were trying to trap him into saying something they could use&#xD;&#xA;&gt; against him, but Jesus stooped down and wrote in the dust with his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; finger. 7 They kept demanding an answer, so he stood up again and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; said, “All right, but let the one who has never sinned throw the first&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stone!” 8 Then he stooped down again and wrote in the dust.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 9 When the accusers heard this, they slipped away one by one,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beginning with the oldest, until only Jesus was left in the middle of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the crowd with the woman. 10 Then Jesus stood up again and said to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; woman, “Where are your accusers? Didn’t even one of them condemn you?”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With Baldr:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Loki want to kill Baldr and learn only a small branch of Mistletoe can do it. During a game everyone is throwing thing at the invincible Baldr until Loki guide Baldr's brother Hodr a blind god who cannot aim to throw the innocent mistletoe thus killing Baldr.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Compare closely the two myths. And see Jesus pointing that: All right, but let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone! The first stone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now take a close look at Baldr death: First it is CLEARLY a lapidation scene. There is no doubt here. Second, see how the blind Hodr, guided by Loki will throw an innocent plant. Take Jesus Words and put them on Baldr myth and. Hodr is the one who has never sinned. You know, innocent, blind, cannot aim, mistletoe, hand guided. The finger on his innocence is so clear, so detailed. And people who wrote that certainly read John. So it is almost clear Baldr's death is too christian to be what it was at the origin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But Ragnorok and Apocalypse are so intertwined that once again... Jormungar and the evil snake... Loki and Lucifer... &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That in my opinion why you see the old tradition (coming from the natural spreading) fighting with the new one. And Loki and Baldr are more than certainly the one who changed the most. You can bet that: In the original myths their roles was very small, so they have been high targets for those late additions. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Just a personal opinion.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11608" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1924" RevisionGUID="e58ce322-eba0-47b9-86e5-dcab7cd02d2a" CreationDate="2017-08-28T06:59:04.437" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 2774 edit id of 465" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11610" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2887" RevisionGUID="3166f91c-69e9-4870-8b4d-33b265e21623" CreationDate="2017-08-28T16:57:23.580" UserId="4108" Text="I'm confused. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Someone please explain to me how the centaur came to be?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does it seem weird to anyone else that we know about it, but we don't know the full story." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11611" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2887" RevisionGUID="3166f91c-69e9-4870-8b4d-33b265e21623" CreationDate="2017-08-28T16:57:23.580" UserId="4108" Text="History of the centaur?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11612" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2887" RevisionGUID="3166f91c-69e9-4870-8b4d-33b265e21623" CreationDate="2017-08-28T16:57:23.580" UserId="4108" Text="|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11613" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2864" RevisionGUID="5289565b-6005-464f-9a8c-2c05109d79ef" CreationDate="2017-08-28T18:30:14.290" UserId="2774" Comment="Clarification in the kursa, historical notes and references" Text="As usual, if you remove the little-simplified version of the BBC, the story they are talking about is &quot;the Storm God and the serpent&quot;. but first:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Hittites&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Hittites are an old civilization running through the 2000BC - 1000 BC period. Factually they are great enough to have stopped Ramses II, potentially the most powerful pharaoh ever [You can find a depiction of the Battle of Kadesh opposing the troops of Ramses II and Muwatalli in the recent movie &quot;Exodus&quot;; As every Hollywoodian depiction forget anything there is there instead of the fact there is a huge battle, actually the first largely documented battle, by Egyptian only unfortunately]. Their capital was Hattusa which has been unearthed near the small village of Boğazköy, hence you will find people talking either of Hattusa or Boğazköy or the modern name Boğazkale (I am always using Hattusa).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The general relationship between the &quot;Hittite area&quot; and the Golden Fleece is suspected from the Greeks themselves. Jan Bremmer wrote an article about a specific item called the kursa:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A sheep kurša, then, is essentially a hide with wool, but in the case&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of goats it is also “specified as ‘rough, shaggy’ (warhui-), i.e. a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fleece with the long curling hair of an angora (= Turkish Ankara) goat&#xD;&#xA;&gt; still on it. The bag has a strap handle by which it can be hung on a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; peg, with the contents accessible”. Now the kurša could be hung on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the eyantree, which was most likely a kind of oak but possibly a yew.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It could also be hung in a special building, ‘the house of the hunting&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bags’, probably a (room in a) temple, where it had a special place:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ‘the place of the god’. In one case, it is worshipped in the temple of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the war god Zababa, what may have given rise to its being hung in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; temple of Ares, but other buildings are also mentioned, and the place&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the kurša clearly depended on local circumstances.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; We find survivance of the kursa fairly after the disappearance of the Hittites as here noticed by Herodotus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 7-26: In any case, after crossing the Halys River,  [the army of King&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Xerxes] entered Phrygia, and on their way through the country they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; arrived at Kelaini [...] It is in this city that the skin of Marsyas&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Silenus is suspended [...] It was hung there after Marsyas was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; flayed by Appolo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Storm God and the Serpent&#xD;&#xA;-----------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You will find this story under a lot of name. Hittites was made of a bunch of civilizations, talking different languages (and writing either in cuneiform or hieroglyph as the Luwian language) and it is reflected here. the Storm God will so be:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Teshub in Hurrian&#xD;&#xA; - Taru for the Anatolians&#xD;&#xA; - The Storm God (of Hatti) for the Hittites (dU in Cuneiform, the &quot;d&quot; being an apposition meaning &quot;god&quot;, a star in cuneiform), his wife, Hebat, in Hurrian being the sun-goddess of Arina&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the same level the Serpent is:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The Serpent&#xD;&#xA; - Illuyanka, which means... serpent in Hittite...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So you will find this story as &quot;Teshub and Illuyanka&quot;, Taru and the snake dragon, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are 2 versions of this story I will shortly describe the second one first:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Second version&#xD;&#xA;=============&#xD;&#xA;Lord Teshub is beaten by Illuyanka who take his heart and eye. Teshud marries the daughter of a poor man and sire a son. This son espouses the daughter of Illuyanka. Teshub asking him to get back his heart and eye. Which he is finally obtaining. Teshub then attacks Illuyanka and kills him, his son coming to him and begging him to kill him with his new family.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I cited this story because of its close connection with Apollodorus's depiction of Typhon vs Zeus. You have the same core elements: Zeus/Teshub defeated and amputated (Heart and eyes vs sinews), they both come back and kick the sorry ass of their arsonists.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First version&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first version is older (for sure) and goes like that (translation by Gary Beckman, I changed to name to Teshub and Illuyanka instead of Storm-god and serpent used by Beckman I also used English standard normalisation for the various names):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When Teshub and Illuyanka fought each other in the city of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kishkilushsha, Illuyanka vanquished Teshub.&lt;BR&gt; [Inara](GB: Inara is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Teshub's daughter, Medea here) prepared everything in great&#xD;&#xA;&gt; quantity[...] In the vessels she made abundance. Inara went to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; city of Ziggaratta and she found Khupashiya (GB: here is Jason), a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mortal[...] &quot;I am about to do such and such thing, come with me&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thusly Khupashiya to Inara &quot;If I may sleep with you, then I will come&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and I will do that of you heart&quot;[...]&lt;BR&gt; Inara led Khupashiya away&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and she concealed him. Inara dressed herself up, and she invited&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Illuyanka [...] So [he] came along with his sons and they ate and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; drank [...] They did not want to go down into the lair again.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Khupashiya came and tied up the serpent with a rope. Teshub came and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; killed Illuyanka.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you can see the story is going like that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An obvious goddess (Medea/Inara) is falling in love with a powerful mortal warrior (Jason/Khupashiya), and help him get rid of a mighty &quot;dragon&quot;. Potentially he is later killed (unfortunately the Hittite text, destroyed is not clear).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Walter Burkert talked about that in his fairly excellent *Structure and history in Greek Mythology and Ritual*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (page 10) Recently, Volkert Haas [GB: the book is incorrectly spelling&#xD;&#xA;Volker instead of Volkert] has drawn attention to quite another&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greek myth which bears a surprising resemblance to the Illuyankas myth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as told in the &quot;older&quot; version [GB: what I called here the first version]: Jason and Medea. Here, as there, a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; goddess - there can be no doubt about Medea's divine status - takes a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mortal man as her lover and the two cooperate to overcome the dragon;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; but then the mortal man turns away from his superior spouse, and his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; destroyed in consequence [GB: Burkert's personal interpretation&#xD;&#xA;&gt; here. The Hittite text says nothing about Khupashiya's death] [...]&lt;BR&gt; I do not think this can be coincidence. But in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; spite of the suggestive parallels, it turns out to be impossible to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; integrate the Hittite and the Greek tales into one: on the Greek side&#xD;&#xA;&gt; there is nothing like the characteristic duality of champion and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; helper; thus the whole frame of the combat myth will not fit; on the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; other side, the fleeces, though well attested in Hittite Ritual, do&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not enter into the tale, whereas the Golden Fleece is the very goal of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jason's expedition. [GB: Factually the fleece appears in other stories&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as Telipinu's one... hence my comments, I thought Illuyanka story was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; part of a &quot;Telipinu's matter&quot;]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Generally speaking people specialized (or interested) in Near East old civilization have noticed the fairly strange similitudes between Greek myths and some Near East counterparts:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The cycle of Kumarbi with the beginning of Hesiod's Theogony&#xD;&#xA; - Ishtar episode in the tablet 6 of the Epic of Gilgamesh with Aphrodite's affair in the song 5 of the Iliad&#xD;&#xA; - Zeus loves with Hera in song 14 of the Iliad with the Enuma Elish&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does not means that one has not to be careful with hurried conclusions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11614" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2816" RevisionGUID="c26ada2a-ec96-41fc-a9fb-8a93a2606e20" CreationDate="2017-08-28T18:54:17.017" UserId="2774" Comment="Reintroduced the Graphic Universe more properly, add a small note on Rick Riordan" Text="Depends if you are interested in scholarly approach or general approach.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;General approach&#xD;&#xA;----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In those books, I range those who are both fun and informative, while not being horrible 600+ pages books without illustration in 10 size fonts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The everything classical mythology][1], affordable and fun to read; Offers a cover of the Greeks myth from the Gigantomachy up to Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The complete idiot's guide to mythology][2]. Another fairly simple and fun book to read. it's an Idiot's guide so don't expect too much, but nice.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Classical mythology &amp; more][3]. Another good and easy entry level book. This one, contrary to the first two, actually cites a lot of sources, and the juicy passages. this is overall a damn fairly good and solid book while of easy access. Note also it is designed with teaching in mind so in a way fairly great for a learner (there is little exercises at the end of each chapter).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[D'Aulaire's Greek myth][4] Fairly classical, not especially my recommendation.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Graphic Universe][5], if you love the way the D'Aulaire's are working you can check this wonderful graphic novels series, as for example [Odysseus][5]. As the series in its whole is covering a lot of myths you can gain a high knowledge of Greek myths.I am not the biggest fan of comics (eon of) and just read Odysseus which is &quot;accurate&quot;. I would favor those over D'Aulaire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Scholar approach&#xD;&#xA;----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Those books are if you are interested. Lots of texts, few images, this is the fairly serious matter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Early Greek myth][6], Timothy Gantz, you have everything there, sources, literacy; this is the defacto starting book. There are 2 volumes, and definitely NOT a beginner's guide. If you want a gentle introduction, refer to my general section.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Greek religion][7] by Walter Burkert. Just note the author is German, and I pointed you to a translation. Burkert IS a must read, providing the subject interest you. Another extremely good one to read is *Structure and history in Greek mythology*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Art and myth in ancient Greece][8] T.H Carpenter, which offers a beautiful reading of myths and arts, here and there you see me using arts or hieroglyphs to explain this or that. While not a compendium, that is a fairly useful tool for you. Even Gantz or Burkert are not especially art oriented.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Greek mythology, an introduction][9] by Fritz Graf, another German guy (learning German when you love myth is FAR from a bad idea, fact is learning English, German and French is pretty smart). This is less aggressive than Grantz (only 300 pages) but still should be read.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Metamorphoses][10] by Ovid, if you are looking for THE reference, you have it. Not only it is filled up to the root with mythologies BUT, cherry on the cake, it is one of the best poets on Earth who wrote it... you find there lots of alternate versions (read the myth of Romulus and Remus to see Ovid's giving you his opinion with subtlety)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Penguin's dictionary][11] it's some Penguin's material, solid, well written a good source and reference.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can add DukeZhou's Hamilton &amp;&amp; Oxford book.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To avoid&#xD;&#xA;--------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Greek myth][12] by Bob Graves. Lack of seriousness for the myth part and for the poetic aspect I would pick Ovid anytime. Quite cited here and there (especially here). If you have time, only (I just gave you 4000 pages. Not to mention the Greek/Roman authors. Come to me after Homer, Hesiod, Herodotus, Thucydides, Plato and Plutarch... Roughly 10k pages before Graves).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rick Riordan. We saw Rick Riordan cited here and there here. While not a pejorative comment (at all), Riordan is a novelist writing and assuming writing novels. He cannot be considered a Greek source, either than &quot;In Rick Riordan universe... blablabla&quot; (I consider an answer beginning by that totally acceptable). I know Riordan published a compendium on Norse mythology, I have not checked it at all.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.amazon.fr/Everything-Classical-Mythology-Book-Goddesses/dp/158062653X&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Classical-Mythology-Lifestyle-Paperback/dp/1592572898&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.amazon.com/Classical-Mythology-More-Reader-Workbook/dp/0865165734&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.amazon.com/DAulaires-Greek-Myths-Ingri-dAulaire/dp/0440406943&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.amazon.com/Odysseus-Escaping-Poseidons-Graphic-Paperback/dp/0822585154&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.amazon.com/Early-Greek-Myth-Literary-Artistic/dp/0801853605&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.amazon.com/Greek-Religion-Walter-Burkert/dp/0674362810&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.amazon.com/Art-Myth-Ancient-Greece-World/dp/0500202362&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://www.amazon.com/Greek-Mythology-Introduction-Fritz-Graf/dp/0801853958&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://www.amazon.com/Metamorphoses-Oxford-Worlds-Classics-Ovid/dp/0199537372&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://www.amazon.com/Penguin-Dictionary-Classical-Mythology/dp/0140512357&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://www.amazon.com/Greek-Myths-Complete-Definitive/dp/0241952743" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11615" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2888" RevisionGUID="53a72dab-feb8-4af3-896a-09f2c56efb5f" CreationDate="2017-08-28T19:26:16.463" UserId="3741" Text="Although there are conflicting ideas the two most common are that they were either born of Ixion and Nephele or descendants of Centaurus, a son of Apollo. However there is a similar version where Centaurus is said to be born of Ixion and Nephele.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The centaurs were usually said to have been born of Ixion and Nephele (the cloud made in the image of Hera).&#xA;&#xA;This is from [the Wikipedia page on Centaurs][1]&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The centaurs were descendants of Centaurus, a son of the music god Apollo.&#xA;&#xA;This is from [MythWeb][2]&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centaur&#xA;  [2]: http://www.mythweb.com/encyc/entries/centaurs.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11616" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2887" RevisionGUID="e300ef71-4a4a-4a7f-8012-6d05e8bb3c45" CreationDate="2017-08-28T19:38:19.510" UserId="3741" Comment="added the Greek tag" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11617" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2887" RevisionGUID="e300ef71-4a4a-4a7f-8012-6d05e8bb3c45" CreationDate="2017-08-28T19:38:19.510" Comment="Proposed by 3741 approved by 4108 edit id of 466" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11618" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2889" RevisionGUID="6e80dc63-7ef5-45c8-813b-b1d2c490a8ce" CreationDate="2017-08-28T21:28:57.817" UserId="3725" Text="Why hello there, old sports, it's me, Totally-not-time-traveling-Hitler-in-disguise.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have a question:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**What is this &quot;sympathetic magic&quot;, and where can I read more about it?**" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11619" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2889" RevisionGUID="6e80dc63-7ef5-45c8-813b-b1d2c490a8ce" CreationDate="2017-08-28T21:28:57.817" UserId="3725" Text="Sympathetic Magic: is there internal consistency in the occult" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11620" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2889" RevisionGUID="6e80dc63-7ef5-45c8-813b-b1d2c490a8ce" CreationDate="2017-08-28T21:28:57.817" UserId="3725" Text="|magic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11621" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2889" RevisionGUID="8541de40-5a28-45cc-8db6-08c935b38495" CreationDate="2017-08-28T21:38:10.270" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|comparative|magic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11622" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2889" RevisionGUID="8541de40-5a28-45cc-8db6-08c935b38495" CreationDate="2017-08-28T21:38:10.270" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="Why hello there, old sports, it's me, Totally-not-time-traveling-Hitler-in-disguise.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the concept of &quot;sympathetic magic&quot; in mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11623" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2889" RevisionGUID="8541de40-5a28-45cc-8db6-08c935b38495" CreationDate="2017-08-28T21:38:10.270" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="Sympathetic Magic: is there internal consistency in mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11624" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2890" RevisionGUID="f53c2f14-bfa7-4e21-8e83-57d96421588a" CreationDate="2017-08-28T22:52:34.283" UserId="4102" Text="[Here's][1] a decent analysis of the passage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/prophecy/seven-heads.htm&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;It is these seven kings that we want to deal with in this paper. Basically, there are three different interpretations that could be considered about who these seven kings are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**Seven Individual Kings**: This interpretation has a couple variations. Some try to identify seven individual emperors (a typical preterist view), and others seven individual popes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**Seven Kingdoms**: This interpretation typically identifies the first five kings either as being Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Pagan Rome, and Papal Rome; or as being Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**Seven Forms of Roman Government**: This interpretation typically identifies the first five kings as being five of the following forms of government: a) kings, b) consuls, c) dictators, d) decemvirate, e) military tribunes with consular power, and f) triumvira&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11626" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2887" RevisionGUID="6e822c9d-ae5f-4be9-a576-780afe30ee14" CreationDate="2017-08-28T23:40:54.257" UserId="4105" Comment="more descriptive title, origins tag" Text="Can someone please explain to me how the centaur came to be?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does it seem weird to anyone else that we know about it, but we don't know the full story?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11627" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2887" RevisionGUID="6e822c9d-ae5f-4be9-a576-780afe30ee14" CreationDate="2017-08-28T23:40:54.257" UserId="4105" Comment="more descriptive title, origins tag" Text="What is the origin of the centaurs?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11628" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2887" RevisionGUID="6e822c9d-ae5f-4be9-a576-780afe30ee14" CreationDate="2017-08-28T23:40:54.257" UserId="4105" Comment="more descriptive title, origins tag" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11629" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2887" RevisionGUID="6e822c9d-ae5f-4be9-a576-780afe30ee14" CreationDate="2017-08-28T23:40:54.257" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 4108 edit id of 467" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11635" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2891" RevisionGUID="bf1d3b4b-6937-498c-a98b-cc70418ef3c2" CreationDate="2017-08-29T00:54:40.547" UserId="967" Text="Centaurs are borne from a cloud nymph named Nemphele and the Lapith king Ixion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story goes like this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Ixion is a terrible person, and deceitfully invites some poor dude to a &quot;banquet&quot; where he makes the person fall into a pit. (this is from memory)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Zeus takes pity (from him being a murderer), and decides to purify him by inviting Ixion to his own banquet.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Ixion, being a bad person, decides to try to win the love of Hera. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Zeus finds out, and makes a ghost of Hera from a cloud. Ixion has intercourse with the cloud (nymph).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Ixion lives torturedly(?) ever after. Nymph gives birth to some centaurs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Apollodorus, Epitome, e.1][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Ixion fell in love with Hera and attempted to force her; and when Hera reported it, Zeus, wishing to know if the thing were so, made a cloud in the likeness of Hera and laid it beside him; and when Ixion boasted that he had enjoyed the favours of Hera, Zeus bound him to a wheel, on which he is whirled by winds through the air; such is the penalty he pays. And the cloud, impregnated by Ixion, gave birth to Centaurus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Apollod.%20Epit.%20E.1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11637" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1887" RevisionGUID="cf16bcd3-ea25-4750-a3ff-fc87c4ca4782" CreationDate="2017-08-29T01:12:12.663" UserId="4105" Comment="corrected spelling and grammar. also what is it with all the &lt;BR&gt;? " Text="Well it depends which source you want to follow.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If it is Plutarch, then he is dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now in Euripides' tragedy &quot;Herakles&quot;, the hero frees Theseus from the Hades From what I recall, the events are in Thebes, where Lycus usurped the throne and acted as a tyrant. Herakles' wife is there and Lycus is trying to kill her and her sons but as Herakles is in Hell she cannot defend  herself. Finally Herakles comes and kills Lycus, but also - being enraged - his wife and sons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now Theseus, which as Herakles is a good guy spending his time killing bad people, knowing the usurpation of Lycus comes to Thebes to kill him, but learn Herakles did it and also his family. He cheers him and they both go to Athens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That is from memory only. But it is probably remotely accurate. Think you can find the tragedy in any online library like Gutenberg." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11638" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1887" RevisionGUID="cf16bcd3-ea25-4750-a3ff-fc87c4ca4782" CreationDate="2017-08-29T01:12:12.663" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 967, 292 edit id of 469" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11639" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1933" RevisionGUID="15cc619c-6c6d-4457-9190-eb624489b8fd" CreationDate="2017-08-29T01:12:29.290" UserId="4105" Comment="more descriptive title" Text="My question is about the internal organs of this creature. How are these organs arranged? It is confusing, because it is basically a horse with its head replaced by a human upper body.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, if it has both the human and horse organs, that would mean it has multiple hearts, livers and two pairs of lungs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can someone explain how this creature works?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11640" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1933" RevisionGUID="15cc619c-6c6d-4457-9190-eb624489b8fd" CreationDate="2017-08-29T01:12:29.290" UserId="4105" Comment="more descriptive title" Text="How are the internal organs of centaurs arranged?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11641" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1933" RevisionGUID="15cc619c-6c6d-4457-9190-eb624489b8fd" CreationDate="2017-08-29T01:12:29.290" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 967, 292 edit id of 468" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11642" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2887" RevisionGUID="5fb76cee-1904-4356-85e2-5d620502170b" CreationDate="2017-08-29T01:14:02.980" UserId="292" Comment="I thought it would help clarify the question for people scanning the list." Text="Can someone please explain to me how centaurs were created?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does it seem weird to anyone else that we know about it, but we don't know the full story?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11643" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2892" RevisionGUID="2dd91cfb-f39d-4148-bad1-a9270250644a" CreationDate="2017-08-29T01:49:28.810" UserId="4105" Text="In my [previous question][1], I learned of Typhon's revolt against Zeus. What puzzles me is how Zeus managed to overcome the monstrous giant without any help from the Olympians, or anyone else. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Titanomachy, Zeus had a number of very powerful allies by his side; his brothers and sisters, the Hecatonchires and the Cyclopes. Typhon's strength, however, is such that the Olympians abandon their king and flee to Egypt in panic. I think it's safe to assume Gaia's youngest is considered a far more formidable opponent than the combined forces of the Titans. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How is it then possible for Zeus to win the fight? Does his triumph over Typhon imply that his strength has grown considerably since he assumed the throne of Olympus? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/2877/4105" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11644" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2892" RevisionGUID="2dd91cfb-f39d-4148-bad1-a9270250644a" CreationDate="2017-08-29T01:49:28.810" UserId="4105" Text="Did the power of Zeus grow considerably after the Titanomachy?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11645" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2892" RevisionGUID="2dd91cfb-f39d-4148-bad1-a9270250644a" CreationDate="2017-08-29T01:49:28.810" UserId="4105" Text="|greek|zeus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11646" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2893" RevisionGUID="2016ed47-8568-43ef-ac6e-8a767787f097" CreationDate="2017-08-29T01:49:41.737" UserId="806" Text="As Lauren Ipsum points out, this question is based on a questionable premise: that Greek mythological creatures were supposed to have &quot;worked&quot; anatomically.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm not an expert, so I can't say for sure, but I have never heard of any mythological explanation of centaur anatomy. Of course, many modern fantasy writers and mythological enthusiasts have come up with their own explanations, but I don't think those fall within the scope of this site (unless they have been influential enough to have passed into modern &quot;folklore&quot;).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some ancient accounts treat them as having partially divine ancestry (from Zeus), and of course Greek gods displayed many violations of conventional anatomy by being able to transform themselves and perform all kinds of physical feats that would be impossible for any living being in real life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some books about myths that I have read suggest that the image of the centaur was inspired by how non-equestrian cultures first perceived men on horseback. I forget where I first read this, but it is mentioned in the Theoi.com article on centaurs that I linked to below. Although this explanation is certainly speculative, I find it intriguing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ancient Greek depictions of centaurs show some anatomical variations: sometimes the foremost pair of legs are depicted as equine, but sometimes they are depicted as human legs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![bronze centaur with human front legs next to a man][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Bronze man and centaur&quot;, a mid-8th century B.C. Greek bronze statue&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;###References:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Theoi.com, [Greek Mythology &gt;&gt; Bestiary &gt;&gt; Centaurs (Kentauroi)][2], Theoi Project © Copyright 2000 - 2017 Aaron J. Atsma, Netherlands &amp; New Zealand&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The Met Collection Records &quot;[Bronze man and centaur][3]&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/AazU0.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/KentauroiThessalioi.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/249228" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11649" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1044" RevisionGUID="97f589cc-51db-4b87-9336-10c0261a985a" CreationDate="2017-08-29T09:10:19.120" UserId="4105" Comment="corrected spelling, fixed grammar, removed some fluff and the uneccessary *edit* indicators, fixed formatting." Text="**In a nutshell**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you are interested in the subject, read below. Otherwise, the accepted answer was pretty much the last edit of my post. While it's still probable that Bram Stoker did not think of the &quot;no reflection&quot; feature, it's considered his invention.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Vampires**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Vampires are ancient Balkan mythological being. The word actually depicts pretty much any form of non-ethereal undead (contrary to the popular belief of capes, fangs and etc). As such their soul usually passed on to the next world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was believed that the mirror holds and reflects a part of your soul. Like VixenPopuli said it can't reflect what you don't own.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This also explains why Chinese vampires are terrified of their reflection because they are reminded that they have no soul.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, in the past mirrors were made out of silver, and actually Balkan werewolves are considered a type of a vampire, so... if you add 2+2 you get 4. **It's quite possible that the modern myth is a combination of the silver and soul reflection theories.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As of the earlier myths, we are talking about centuries before any written language.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other words, it's impossible to tell how it appeared, but the most plausible theories are: **No soul, thus no reflection** and **Bram Stoker's imagination and bad translations, born from lack of understanding.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I mean, Bram Stoker did a pretty lame job at describing vampires, but they were sort of &quot;the thing&quot; back in the days and everybody just went along with it, which eventually brought us Edward the sparkling fairy. So I won't be surprised if someone told him that vampires are terrified of mirrors, and he tried to guess why, which spawned the myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Vampires][1] Wikipedia.&#xD;&#xA;- [Link from the bibliography. Fixed.][2]&#xD;&#xA;- [China Vampires Jiangshi][3], another Wikipedia article.&#xD;&#xA;- [Random][4] [articles][5] [which][6] [pretty][7] [much][8] [repeat][9] [what I just said.][10]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--- &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now about the Stoker thing (or how he did a sloppy job, since in the comments OP's comment sort of implied that Stoker didn't do anything wrong). (**Warning** Off Topic):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Gypsies are afraid of vampires and will not enter their territories. Actually, they are far more superstitious than normal people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 2. Wooden stake - Actually is a specific type of wood. Cornus, also known as dogwood. And it is not required to be a stake. Even a needle will help you. Since vampires are considered something like giant balloons full of blood. The word that describes the item is Шип which can be translated as pretty much everything in between a stake, spike and a big needle. Depending on the dialect. Also, the heart is also a myth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This thing about the wood is only about the Balkan Vampires, the Chinese ones are slain by wood from a peach tree. So it can only be a tree that destroys evil. In other words, a wooden stake will not help you in 905 of the cases.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 3. He completely skipped the &quot;cut their feet&quot; part. You can kill vampires by cutting their feet so they won't get up and attack the living, which will make them die of starvation. Which is pretty much the usual way vampires were killed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 4. People don't fear vampires, they gang up to slay them when they are still young. Thus Frankenstein is more of a vampire book than Dracula.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 5. Many many many other historical and translation issues. Yup Dracula was the Edward Cullen of the Victorian age. Sparkle, sparkle. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There were more but this post is not about this and I didn't finish the book. I made it up to like page +/- 150 of Dracula and it made me understand why people burned books back in the days...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Additional info. This time on Vampire myths instead of Stoker's mistakes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. There is no popular, written story dating prior to Bram Stoker, claiming that vampires are not reflected in mirrors. Actually, there are many things about vampires that appeared after Stoker wrote his novel. I wonder why?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. Vampires and bloodsuckers, in general, are far older than the bible itself and appear through out the history in almost all mythology from China to Egypt and eastern Europe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. The only known ancient vampires, prior to the book Dracula, that were related to mirrors were the Chinese ones. Also they had reflection, it's just that it scared them instead of not appearing. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. Stoker spawned a huge cult to his creation, not the mythological being *vampyr.* The mythological creature vampyr is only remotely related to Dracula. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;5. The mirror is most probably derivation created from combining various sources describing different types of vampires.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also another shady source: Knowing your country's history. Also, there were many authors that Mentioned in many of their books, the original vampires. Authors like Jordan Radichkov, Ivan Vazov and many others. They all describe different vampires.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ok, I came back and did a quick google search. One of the 1st [links][11]. I quote:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One very famous trait Stoker added is the inability to be seen in mirrors, which is not something found in traditional Eastern European folklore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, warping mythology is not modern mythology. If tomorrow someone says that Centaurs were half fishes half penguins, and it becomes a thing, it will not be considered a mythology. The mythological being will still be a man who has a body of a horse instead of his bottom half.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%80&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.protobulgarians.com/PODSTRANITSA%20NA%20DR%20ZHIVKO%20VOYNIKOV/PRALULG-DIAL-DUM-1.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiangshi#Methods_and_items_used_to_counter_jiangshis&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://dariknews.bg/view_article.php?article_id=1350208&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://mgpz.org/mitoveizagadki/drugi/vampir.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.burgasnews.com/ezoterika-i-misterii/74275-vnimavaite-s-ogledaloto-mozhe-da-krie-dushata-vi&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.trud.bg/Article.asp?ArticleId=4451362&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://listverse.com/2010/09/30/8-vampire-myths-explained/&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.fvza.org/vmyths.html&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/38466/is-there-a-reason-given-as-to-why-vampires-reflections-cannot-be-seen&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://dracula.cc/literature/bram_stoker_dracula/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11650" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1044" RevisionGUID="97f589cc-51db-4b87-9336-10c0261a985a" CreationDate="2017-08-29T09:10:19.120" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 2774, 568 edit id of 473" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11651" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2364" RevisionGUID="735b4c0f-4a5a-4577-9c25-6c76493c2183" CreationDate="2017-08-29T12:49:07.860" UserId="4105" Comment="corrected spelling, fixed grammar" Text="Basically the same as the Titans in Greek mythology. Just like the Titan Gaia, the Jotunn Jord is Earth herself. Likewise the Celtic goddess Danu is the mother of all life and Earth, she's often depicted as the embodiment of nature pregnant, displaying fertility. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All Indo-European pantheons display the same archetype, that is a dual-pantheon system in which a human-like pantheon of gods, that taught us human things like music and art, magic, military prowess, metal smithing, crop techniques defeated an older pantheon of more primitive/primordial gods, that are usually chaotic, and represent the natural forces that humans don't have control over, storms, snow. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This common mythology themes mirror the Indo-European people's own history, in which from their homeland in the Asian steppes of Kazakhstan they invaded/migrated to new lands and spread their domain all across Eurasia and conquered the inhabitants.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's this misconception in popular culture (thanks to things like Marvel comics) that giants (Jotunn) are exclusively evil and enemies of the gods and humanity, which couldn't be further from the truth. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11652" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2364" RevisionGUID="735b4c0f-4a5a-4577-9c25-6c76493c2183" CreationDate="2017-08-29T12:49:07.860" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 2774, 57 edit id of 471" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11653" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2359" RevisionGUID="07f76608-60fa-4075-8d53-5ccaaea4f44e" CreationDate="2017-08-29T12:49:13.007" UserId="4105" Comment="corrected spelling" Text="It's not surprising that Germanic and Celtic myths are so similar, both cultures/mythologies are in fact the same culture with minor differences due to regional separation. All Indo-European cultures are different branches of the same culture, the proto-Indo-European culture, that was the original culture of the Aryans when they invaded/migrated across Eurasia and settled in Europe, the Middle East and north India, from their historical homeland in the Asian Russian steppes between the regions of Kazakhstan and Ukraine, near the Aral sea (according to the Kurgan hypothesis). With a quick comparative research one will realize this, one example is the dual pantheon trait in the Indo-European mythologies, where a pantheon of human-like deities defeats and dominates, or go to war and then allies through a truce, with an older pantheon of monsters or more primitive/primordial beings that represent the natural forces; Aesir-Vanir, Tuatha de Danann-Fomorians, Olympians-Titans, Devas-Asuras. Another example is the presence of a world tree, the tree of life. Or humans being made from wood, rather than sand, mud or blood like in Semitic mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now concerning the female role in society, it was very important, essential. Women were considered equal to men in importance. Women were very highly regarded in magic and priesthood, women could become druids (the priests and doctors of the law of Celtic society, one of the highest positions in society where a person had to study for 20 years in a Druidic academy before being able to start their priesthood) like any man. It's been described by historians that when Gaulish tribes went to war they always had females priests to bless them. There's a myth of two Gaulish tribes that were going to battle, but the women intervened and solved the problems with diplomacy and friendliness. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Germanic society it was very similar, the Seiðr were a class of magical and religious priests in Nordic society that were predominantly women, one of the most important Vanir deities, Freya herself was heavily associated with magic." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11654" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2359" RevisionGUID="07f76608-60fa-4075-8d53-5ccaaea4f44e" CreationDate="2017-08-29T12:49:13.007" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 2774, 57 edit id of 472" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11655" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2889" RevisionGUID="83c3b544-a5e2-408e-b27c-458eed1f6fea" CreationDate="2017-08-29T18:01:15.813" UserId="-1" Comment="aligned title with question body, removed poor attempt at humor and irrelevant &quot;comparative&quot; tag" Text="What is sympathetic magic?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11656" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2889" RevisionGUID="83c3b544-a5e2-408e-b27c-458eed1f6fea" CreationDate="2017-08-29T18:01:15.813" UserId="-1" Comment="aligned title with question body, removed poor attempt at humor and irrelevant &quot;comparative&quot; tag" Text="|magic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11657" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2889" RevisionGUID="83c3b544-a5e2-408e-b27c-458eed1f6fea" CreationDate="2017-08-29T18:01:15.813" Comment="Proposed by anonymous approved by 2774, 3725 edit id of 474" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11658" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2889" RevisionGUID="97143201-6cc5-4561-886e-6895df638540" CreationDate="2017-08-29T18:42:36.877" UserId="183" Comment="deleted 88 characters in body" Text="What is the concept of &quot;sympathetic magic&quot; in mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11659" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2360" RevisionGUID="ab54bec0-34fd-4d38-a6e2-6620cc811a3b" CreationDate="2017-08-29T18:44:18.963" UserId="4105" Comment="corrected spelling and grammar, properly formatted quote. did not correct spelling in the quote itself, as quotes are supposed to reflect the origina text." Text="One thing that must be pointed out is that all the Indo-European cultures (Germanic, Celtic, Slavic, Greek, Persian, Vedic...) are the same. They're simply different branches of the same culture/mythology, that originated due to regional separation, as the Indo-Europeans invaded/migrated to different lands and different populations settled in regions isolated from each other. Therefore the appearance of minor differences between these different branches is inevitable, but the main aspects are the same. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the first bigger historical civilizations created by the Indo-Europeans was the Vedic civilization in North India. In the Vedic cosmology, Brahma is the main God. He's everything, the universe itself, and the other gods are different manifestations of Brahma, avatars with different traits to be worshipped. The reason for that is the channeling of spiritual energy - in the Vedic texts, it's called Nirgunabrahman, the impersonal, attributeless Absolute, or Parabrahman, the Supreme Absolute.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Celtic mythology is the one I'm most familiar with, so I can give you a more in depth example: Dagodeus is referred to as the vortex of existence, Trinertá. Dagodeus is depicted as a three faced God, that is the explanation for such a motif as a trinity being so present in Indo-European cultures. Other Indo-European deities such as Brigid are also three faced or have three manifestations/personalities. There are also Indo-European religious symbols such as the triskelion and the swastika that are a vortex always in movement. As you can read in [a post in my blog](http://blackewood.blogspot.com.br/2011/11/trinerta-three-forces.html) I've written years ago:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...The universe emerged from a triad, Trinertá, the Three Forces. the three elements, ie, the two opposing forces and their resultant, arising from the first movement in the Immensity supra-causal and non-differentiated Bituimon. This triad is the primary basis for all aspects of the universe. These three basic forces are mentioned in cosmology as a centripetal attraction, a centrifugal force and balance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The centripetal action, personified by Lugus, the immanent, the Preserver of the universe is called Biwotúts (&quot;existence&quot;), because there is a concentration of energy, a force of agglomeration. On the mental plane, the cohesive force is the tendency that lights up the unit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The centrifugal action, called Demerá (&quot;dark&quot;), is the force that seeks to prevent the dispersion concentration. This tendency toward disintegration is the symbol of the final dissolution of all existence in Non-Being. It therefore represents a release. This force of annihilation is personified by dits firing, the Destroyer of Worlds, also called Dagodéwos, Good God.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt; The balance of centripetal and centrifugal gives rise to the third trend, the tendency to orbiting, Suimon, which is the source of the activity. She is personified by the Creator, He-Who-Is-Eternal Bitumios...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Myth-wise, the deities in these different cultures can vary, while there may be in one culture in a certain location a deity that personifies the universe, originally it's the main God that is the primordial energy of life (Brahma). In the Greek mythology that would be Zeus, in the Celtic mythology it would be Dagda (or Dagodeus in Gaulish), in the Persian Zoroastrian religion it would be Ahura Mazda, and in the Germanic mythology, Odin certainly. This primordial spirit is the essence of everything that is and ever was." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11660" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2360" RevisionGUID="ab54bec0-34fd-4d38-a6e2-6620cc811a3b" CreationDate="2017-08-29T18:44:18.963" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 2774, 57 edit id of 470" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11662" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2896" RevisionGUID="47df7e1b-b593-41a8-85b0-539b7694dc32" CreationDate="2017-08-29T22:35:05.920" UserId="4113" Text="I'm trying to remember the details of a legend I read years ago - and I don't even remember which body of folklore it came from - about a hero with a herd of cows, all of whom had legs on one side longer than the other so that they could graze on the side of a very steep hill.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My initial guess was Finn McCool, but a cursory search of the best-known Finn legends doesn't reveal any lopsided cows; my next guess is one of the semi-modern American tall tale heroes - but Paul Bunyan is the only one I can remember offhand, and he's not the one.  It's also possible that I misremembered this entirely, and there never was such a legend or tale..." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11663" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2896" RevisionGUID="47df7e1b-b593-41a8-85b0-539b7694dc32" CreationDate="2017-08-29T22:35:05.920" UserId="4113" Text="Cows adapted to life on a steep hillside" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11664" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2896" RevisionGUID="47df7e1b-b593-41a8-85b0-539b7694dc32" CreationDate="2017-08-29T22:35:05.920" UserId="4113" Text="|myth-identification|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11665" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2516" RevisionGUID="8268ae9b-be61-429f-95d3-c9212f80445f" CreationDate="2017-08-29T22:41:45.757" UserId="2892" Comment="added a reference to Brian Donovan's excellent note." Text="You are referring to the Aeschylus fragment &quot;[Prometheus Unbound][1]&quot;.  Unfortunately this play was mostly lost. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(The source text can be found here: [&quot;The Prometheus bound of Aeschylus and the fragments of the Prometheus unbound&quot;][2] on page 145, but it won't be especially helpful unless you have some Latin and Greek.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the Prometheus Unbound fragments on [Theoi, use this link][3] and look for &quot;PROMÊTHEUS [LYOMENOS][4]&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'll amend if I find any further information, but it looks like any parts of this text that may have told what happens to Prometheus after he is unbound in this play are lost. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there is a third play, [Prometheus the Fire Bringer][5], again, surviving only in fragments and only.  [On Theoi, use this link][3] and look for &quot;PROMÊTHEUS [PYRPHOROS][6]&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One theory on this third play hold that Prometheus is reconciled with Zeus after revealing to Zeus the prophecy of Thetis' child becoming greater than Zeus himself [see Brian Donovan's comment below for more clarification], which may derive from [Hyginus, Fabulae, 54][7], and is [predicted by Prometheus himself in the Aeschylus][8]. (If true, this 3rd play might have contained the answer on what Prometheus does *after* he is unbound, but there is an alternate theory holding that this play was actually the *first* in the trilogy, and depicted the events concerning the theft of fire.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Graves says that &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Mankind now began to wear rings in Prometheus' honour, and also wreathes, because when released, [Prometheus was ordered to crown himself with a willow wreath.][9]&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: Robert graves, The Greek Myths, 133.m, citing Athenaeus&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;so there's that. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For more info on this punishment and Athenaeus, see &quot;[The Author of the Prometheus Bound][10]&quot; by C.J. Herington.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;RELATED: [Prometheus Unbound by Percy Bysshe Shelley][11]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: Shelly is not part of the classical canon, but is a poet of sufficient stature to be included in the overall literary canon, so he is worth reading if you have an interest in this subject.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus_Unbound_(Aeschylus)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://archive.org/details/prometheusbound00allegoog&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/AeschylusFragments2.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=luomenos&amp;la=greek#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus_the_Fire-Bringer&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=purforos&amp;la=greek#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusFabulae2.html#54&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0010%3Acard%3D742&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://books.google.com/books?id=pGkbAgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT387&amp;lpg=PT387&amp;dq=Athenaeus%20prometheus&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=x7Da5pm4dO&amp;sig=KAmZZmm1fpWn-4D2LLtFBjnMLW4&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjZ1eDkkofTAhWI8YMKHcuhA1gQ6AEIHTAB#v=onepage&amp;q=Athenaeus%20prometheus&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://books.google.com/books?id=_IQODQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA125&amp;lpg=PA125&amp;dq=Athenaeus%20prometheus&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=rHMxwimU2X&amp;sig=bUrfdfuV4-Tbi_a6CukRkhJuD3k&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjZ1eDkkofTAhWI8YMKHcuhA1gQ6AEIGjAA#v=onepage&amp;q=Athenaeus%20prometheus&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://archive.org/stream/prometheusunboun00sheliala/prometheusunboun00sheliala_djvu.txt" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11666" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2516" RevisionGUID="8260ad68-1268-4af2-9701-cff2eaec51d2" CreationDate="2017-08-29T22:53:30.493" UserId="2892" Comment="Changed the Shelley link to Wiki, as it give a synopsis and the previous linked text was suboptimal" Text="You are referring to the Aeschylus fragment &quot;[Prometheus Unbound][1]&quot;.  Unfortunately this play was mostly lost. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(The source text can be found here: [&quot;The Prometheus bound of Aeschylus and the fragments of the Prometheus unbound&quot;][2] on page 145, but it won't be especially helpful unless you have some Latin and Greek.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the Prometheus Unbound fragments on [Theoi, use this link][3] and look for &quot;PROMÊTHEUS [LYOMENOS][4]&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'll amend if I find any further information, but it looks like any parts of this text that may have told what happens to Prometheus after he is unbound in this play are lost. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there is a third play, [Prometheus the Fire Bringer][5], again, surviving only in fragments and only.  [On Theoi, use this link][3] and look for &quot;PROMÊTHEUS [PYRPHOROS][6]&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One theory on this third play hold that Prometheus is reconciled with Zeus after revealing to Zeus the prophecy of Thetis' child becoming greater than Zeus himself [see Brian Donovan's comment below for more clarification], which may derive from [Hyginus, Fabulae, 54][7], and is [predicted by Prometheus himself in the Aeschylus][8]. (If true, this 3rd play might have contained the answer on what Prometheus does *after* he is unbound, but there is an alternate theory holding that this play was actually the *first* in the trilogy, and depicted the events concerning the theft of fire.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Graves says that &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Mankind now began to wear rings in Prometheus' honour, and also wreathes, because when released, [Prometheus was ordered to crown himself with a willow wreath.][9]&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: Robert graves, The Greek Myths, 133.m, citing Athenaeus&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;so there's that. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For more info on this punishment and Athenaeus, see &quot;[The Author of the Prometheus Bound][10]&quot; by C.J. Herington.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;RELATED: [Prometheus Unbound by Percy Bysshe Shelley][11]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: Shelly is not part of the classical canon, but is a poet of sufficient stature to be included in the overall literary canon, so he is worth reading if you have an interest in this subject.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus_Unbound_(Aeschylus)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://archive.org/details/prometheusbound00allegoog&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/AeschylusFragments2.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=luomenos&amp;la=greek#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus_the_Fire-Bringer&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=purforos&amp;la=greek#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusFabulae2.html#54&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0010%3Acard%3D742&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://books.google.com/books?id=pGkbAgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT387&amp;lpg=PT387&amp;dq=Athenaeus%20prometheus&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=x7Da5pm4dO&amp;sig=KAmZZmm1fpWn-4D2LLtFBjnMLW4&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjZ1eDkkofTAhWI8YMKHcuhA1gQ6AEIHTAB#v=onepage&amp;q=Athenaeus%20prometheus&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://books.google.com/books?id=_IQODQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA125&amp;lpg=PA125&amp;dq=Athenaeus%20prometheus&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=rHMxwimU2X&amp;sig=bUrfdfuV4-Tbi_a6CukRkhJuD3k&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjZ1eDkkofTAhWI8YMKHcuhA1gQ6AEIGjAA#v=onepage&amp;q=Athenaeus%20prometheus&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus_Unbound_(Shelley)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11667" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2897" RevisionGUID="ef3fa44e-05b1-40bf-a799-8a887b65c719" CreationDate="2017-08-29T23:27:22.740" UserId="2892" Text="This question got me thinking about the Irish depiction of legs in mythology.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - I remember one woman, in particular, from (I believe) the Ulster Cycle, described as having backward legs, similar to a stag or horse, to connote her inhuman swiftness. (The Greek heroine [Atalanta][1] is one parallel, although I can no longer remember the gist of the Irish story.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;*Not strictly related: [Cut Across Shorty][2]*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atalanta#Footrace&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvzZlajPVAo" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11668" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2897" RevisionGUID="ef3fa44e-05b1-40bf-a799-8a887b65c719" CreationDate="2017-08-29T23:27:22.740" UserId="2892" Text="Who was the swift woman from from Irish Mythology described as having backward knees?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11669" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2897" RevisionGUID="ef3fa44e-05b1-40bf-a799-8a887b65c719" CreationDate="2017-08-29T23:27:22.740" UserId="2892" Text="|myth-identification|irish|ulster-cycle|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11670" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2898" RevisionGUID="7011e93b-e8d9-4c1a-af8f-a3aa51734d56" CreationDate="2017-08-30T00:03:55.870" UserId="4114" Text="I know that the elves didn't survive the transatlantic crossing but are there any stories of elves or similar creatures in other world mythologies?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11671" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2898" RevisionGUID="7011e93b-e8d9-4c1a-af8f-a3aa51734d56" CreationDate="2017-08-30T00:03:55.870" UserId="4114" Text="Are there any elf like creatures in non-European folklore?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11672" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2898" RevisionGUID="7011e93b-e8d9-4c1a-af8f-a3aa51734d56" CreationDate="2017-08-30T00:03:55.870" UserId="4114" Text="|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11673" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2899" RevisionGUID="ff962f25-77a2-4bfa-94f5-9e8e72318c15" CreationDate="2017-08-30T00:21:38.770" UserId="2892" Text="[Frazer][1] is the source of the formal definition so far as I know.  From his [Golden Bough][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; IF we analyse the principles of thought on which magic is based, they will probably be found to resolve themselves into two: first, that like produces like, or that an effect resembles its cause; and, second, that things which have once been in contact with each other continue to act on each other at a distance after the physical contact has been severed.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: http://www.bartleby.com/196/5.html&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_George_Frazer&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Bough" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11674" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2898" RevisionGUID="8c20966e-0834-43df-be5b-69a87c5fe573" CreationDate="2017-08-30T01:06:06.040" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11675" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2900" RevisionGUID="a070e6ac-257f-4c57-a725-5d3f79cfe98d" CreationDate="2017-08-30T02:12:50.690" UserId="3741" Text="There really aren't any that I can find. Elf-like creatures are pretty stricly Germanic, however there is the duende.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; A duende is a fairy- or goblin-like mythological creature from Iberian, South American, Chamorro and Filipino folklore&#xA;&#xA;Duendes aren't really elves, they have more similarities to dwarves, but the mythological elves are very different from the ones you find in most fantasy books. Those are a creation mostly of J.R.R Tolkien, however, they were influenced by Germanic culture.&#xA;&#xA;You can read about the duende here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duende_(mythology)&#xA;&#xA;And learn about mythological elves here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elf&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11676" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2897" RevisionGUID="d5756aec-a686-4c0c-a3d4-1883aec0fa49" CreationDate="2017-08-30T08:41:29.857" UserId="57" Comment="added 59 characters in body" Text="This [question][1] got me thinking about the Irish depiction of legs in mythology.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - I remember one woman, in particular, from (I believe) the Ulster Cycle, described as having backward legs, similar to a stag or horse, to connote her inhuman swiftness. (The Greek heroine [Atalanta][2] is one parallel, although I can no longer remember the gist of the Irish story.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;*Not strictly related: [Cut Across Shorty][3]*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/2896/57&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atalanta#Footrace&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvzZlajPVAo" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11677" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2899" RevisionGUID="d20e62a4-e3af-4c56-96da-987e84f1ea0e" CreationDate="2017-08-30T14:35:56.127" UserId="2892" Comment="added a specific example" Text="[Frazer][1] is the source of the formal definition so far as I know.  From his [Golden Bough][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; IF we analyse the principles of thought on which magic is based, they will probably be found to resolve themselves into two: first, that like produces like, or that an effect resembles its cause; and, second, that things which have once been in contact with each other continue to act on each other at a distance after the physical contact has been severed.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: http://www.bartleby.com/196/5.html&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of specific examples, one might look at [Dionysus][3].  His powers derive from the idea that he is like the grape.  The [sparagmos][4] is a metaphor for the process of making wine--one tears the grape apart, and the fluid is like blood.  You bury the casks in a cave, and after a time, spirits are produced.  *(In the Christian conception, this becomes formalized in the idea of resurrection in the spirit.  The [Eucharist][5] is another form of sympathetic magic.)* Dionysus' power of resurrection is partly based on this, and partly based on the regeneration of the grapevines in spring. Another power of Dionysus is to induce madness. He has this power because intoxication is a type of madness. Euripides' [The Bacchae][6], which is, at its core, a commemoration of Dionysus' dismemberment and resurrection, demonstrates how sympathetic magic is applied in relation to the people of Thebes, and [Pentheus][7] in particular. Pentheus ([πενθεύς][8]) literally means &quot;suffering&quot;, and I don't think it's much of a leap to take that particular ending, &quot;theus&quot; as a form of &quot;theos&quot; ([θεός][9]), which renders his name &quot;divine suffering&quot; which is a precise description of Pentheus' story. Pentheus, who starts out the opposite of Dionysus, slowly becomes like Dionysus as the play progresses, with the ultimate end of his taking the place of Dionysus in the ritual commemoration of the sparagmos.     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many other examples, but I focused on Dionysus because it provides an extremely robust template for analysis. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_George_Frazer&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Bough&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparagmos&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucharist&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bacchae&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentheus&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=*penqeu%2Fs&amp;la=greek&amp;can=*penqeu%2Fs0&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0091:card=215&amp;i=1&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dqeo%2Fs" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11678" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2901" RevisionGUID="daf631a8-9e63-406f-90e6-8b2f0900bf47" CreationDate="2017-08-30T14:51:55.033" UserId="57" Text="In some tellings of Typhon's revolt, the gods take animal forms and flee to Egypt in panic. The version in the Metamorphoses of Antoninus Liberalis explicitly mentions the animals each god transformed into: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He felt an urge to usurp the rule of Zeus and not one of the gods could withstand him as he attacked. In panic they fled to Aigyptos (Egypt), all except Athena and Zeus, who alone were left. Typhon hunted after them, on their track. When they fled they had changed themselves in anticipation into animal forms.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollon became a hawk [i.e. the Egyptian god Horus], Hermes an ibis [the Egyptian god Thoth], Ares became a fish, the lepidotus [Egyptian Lepidotus or Onuris], Artemis a cat [Neith or Bastet], Dionysos took the shape of a goat [Osiris or Arsaphes], Herakles a fawn, Hephaistos (Hephaestus) an ox [Ptah], and Leto a shrew mouse [Wadjet]. The rest of the gods each took on what transformations they could. When Zeus struck Typhon with a thunderbolt, Typhon, aflame hid himself and quenched the blaze in the sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: ANTONINUS LIBERALIS. Metamorphoses. Translation by Celoria, F. London: Routledge.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is an etiological myth, the Greeks used this story to explain the origin of the therianthropic deities of Egypt. In the quote, the translator helpfully indicates the Egyptian deity each animal corresponds to. Except for the fawn, the animal Heracles transformed to. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The one Egyptian deity I could find that is associated with deer is [Satis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satis_(goddess)). However, a hunting and fertility goddess doesn't seem a likely equivalent of Heracles. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why does Heracles transform to a fawn? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11679" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2901" RevisionGUID="daf631a8-9e63-406f-90e6-8b2f0900bf47" CreationDate="2017-08-30T14:51:55.033" UserId="57" Text="Why did Heracles transform into a fawn, during the gods flight to Egypt?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11680" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2901" RevisionGUID="daf631a8-9e63-406f-90e6-8b2f0900bf47" CreationDate="2017-08-30T14:51:55.033" UserId="57" Text="|greek|egyptian|hercules|typhon|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11681" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2892" RevisionGUID="caf6fcab-8017-44c2-a8f7-24d92816cd4a" CreationDate="2017-08-30T14:52:23.003" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|zeus|typhon|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11683" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2902" RevisionGUID="c00a14c9-31c7-4605-a643-eaa5a8fac074" CreationDate="2017-08-30T18:22:25.467" UserId="3741" Text="A lot of fantasy creatures are derived from mythology and J.R.R Tolkien's books, sometimes both. I love both of these topics and have known about difference between them, like the fantasy elf vs the mythogical elf. Two very different creatures. There are also things like the orc, created by J.R.R Tolkien with no basis I can find in mythology. How many creatures are like these ones. Changed from their mythological roots, or created either with inspiration from mythology, or not.&#xA;&#xA;I apologise if this should be in the sci-fi and fantasy Stack Exchange, it's a bit of a blurred line to me." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11684" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2902" RevisionGUID="c00a14c9-31c7-4605-a643-eaa5a8fac074" CreationDate="2017-08-30T18:22:25.467" UserId="3741" Text="How many things aren't from mythology and just J.R.R Tolkien's world?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11685" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2902" RevisionGUID="c00a14c9-31c7-4605-a643-eaa5a8fac074" CreationDate="2017-08-30T18:22:25.467" UserId="3741" Text="|mythical-creatures|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11686" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2903" RevisionGUID="e1363f78-e3ba-4510-b65f-ccc96f9d78c2" CreationDate="2017-08-30T18:45:37.877" UserId="3741" Text="I think the animal is a [sidehill gouger][1].&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Sidehill gougers are North American folkloric creatures adapted to living on hillsides by having legs on one side of their body shorter than the legs on the opposite side.&#xA;&#xA;Your ties of it to Paul Bunyan are probably right because if you look [here][2] you can find an entry on a &quot;Sidehill Dodger&quot; which is another name for the same creature.&#xA;&#xA;I can't find the exact myth though.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidehill_gouger&#xA;  [2]: http://www.lumberwoods.com/paulbunyanx3.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11687" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2896" RevisionGUID="c08750bf-da2e-4949-a8a9-fa236d136d3a" CreationDate="2017-08-30T19:17:00.073" UserId="4113" Comment="added 561 characters in body" Text="I'm trying to remember the details of a legend I read years ago - and I don't even remember which body of folklore it came from - about a hero with a herd of cows, all of whom had legs on one side longer than the other so that they could graze on the side of a very steep hill.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My initial guess was Finn McCool, but a cursory search of the best-known Finn legends doesn't reveal any lopsided cows; my next guess is one of the semi-modern American tall tale heroes - but Paul Bunyan is the only one I can remember offhand, and he's not the one.  It's also possible that I misremembered this entirely, and there never was such a legend or tale...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Edit:  it appears that this is A Thing in several parts of the world!  The three that have been reported so far - the wild haggis, the dahu, the hillside gouger/ousel/dodger/etc. - all seem to be of the April Fool's joke or tourist prank variety; now I'm curious whether there ever was an &quot;authentic&quot; legendary occurrence.  (Since the concept itself is patently ridiculous, it occurs to me that, even if a reference turns up in a 7th-century Irish illuminated manuscript, it might have been a joke even then... but at least it would be a really _old_ joke.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11688" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2903" RevisionGUID="6a3f2143-822c-4ee8-9670-f8e02a7166c9" CreationDate="2017-08-30T23:14:26.553" UserId="3741" Comment="added 220 characters in body" Text="I think the animal is a [sidehill gouger][1].&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Sidehill gougers are North American folkloric creatures adapted to living on hillsides by having legs on one side of their body shorter than the legs on the opposite side.&#xA;&#xA;Your ties of it to Paul Bunyan are probably right because if you look [here][2] you can find an entry on a &quot;Sidehill Dodger&quot; which is another name for the same creature.&#xA;&#xA;I can't find the exact myth though.&#xA;&#xA;Similar to the hillside gouger, there is the [dahu][3], a French mythical creature, and the [wild haggis][4] from Scotland.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidehill_gouger&#xA;  [2]: http://www.lumberwoods.com/paulbunyanx3.htm&#xA;  [3]: https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahu&#xA;  [4]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_haggis" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11689" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2902" RevisionGUID="0e85305b-b502-49c4-ba6e-e03011bf6c7d" CreationDate="2017-08-30T23:16:12.790" UserId="3741" Comment="added 2 characters in body; edited title" Text="A lot of fantasy creatures are derived from mythology and J.R.R Tolkien's books, sometimes both. I love both of these topics and have known about difference between them, like the fantasy elf vs the mythogical elf. Two very different creatures. There are also things like the orc, created by J.R.R Tolkien with no basis I can find in mythology. What other creatures are like these ones? Changed from their mythological roots, or created either with inspiration from mythology, or not.&#xA;&#xA;I apologise if this should be in the sci-fi and fantasy Stack Exchange, it's a bit of a blurred line to me." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11690" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2902" RevisionGUID="0e85305b-b502-49c4-ba6e-e03011bf6c7d" CreationDate="2017-08-30T23:16:12.790" UserId="3741" Comment="added 2 characters in body; edited title" Text="What creatures aren't from mythology and just J.R.R Tolkien's world?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11692" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2904" RevisionGUID="6f69a5b5-096d-4fb8-906b-fe22fc2b70ec" CreationDate="2017-08-31T08:47:43.443" UserId="57" Text="Wikipedia suggests the English name of the concept is imprecise, and provides no evidence of a relation with dreams and dreaming: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The term is based on a rendition of the indigenous (Arandic) word alcheringa, used by the Aranda (Arunta, Arrernte) people of Central Australia, although it appears that it is based on a misunderstanding or mistranslation. William Stanner remarked: &quot;why the blackfellow thinks of 'dreaming' as the nearest equivalent in English is a puzzle&quot;. It has been argued that the word's meaning is closer to &quot;eternal, uncreated.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dreamtime. (2017, August 28). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved&#xD;&#xA;08:40, August 31, 2017, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dreamtime&amp;oldid=797624857&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do dreams play as significant a role in Dreamtime stories as the term suggests?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11693" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2904" RevisionGUID="6f69a5b5-096d-4fb8-906b-fe22fc2b70ec" CreationDate="2017-08-31T08:47:43.443" UserId="57" Text="How does the Dreamtime relate to dreaming?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11694" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2904" RevisionGUID="6f69a5b5-096d-4fb8-906b-fe22fc2b70ec" CreationDate="2017-08-31T08:47:43.443" UserId="57" Text="|indigenous-australian|dreamtime|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11699" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2516" RevisionGUID="4e9a84ba-f443-4eb5-9dbc-2363a83d141e" CreationDate="2017-08-31T09:14:23.873" UserId="3639" Comment="added a hyperlink to the comment" Text="You are referring to the Aeschylus fragment &quot;[Prometheus Unbound][1]&quot;.  Unfortunately this play was mostly lost. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(The source text can be found here: [&quot;The Prometheus bound of Aeschylus and the fragments of the Prometheus unbound&quot;][2] on page 145, but it won't be especially helpful unless you have some Latin and Greek.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the Prometheus Unbound fragments on [Theoi, use this link][3] and look for &quot;PROMÊTHEUS [LYOMENOS][4]&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'll amend if I find any further information, but it looks like any parts of this text that may have told what happens to Prometheus after he is unbound in this play are lost. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there is a third play, [Prometheus the Fire Bringer][5], again, surviving only in fragments and only.  [On Theoi, use this link][3] and look for &quot;PROMÊTHEUS [PYRPHOROS][6]&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One theory on this third play hold that Prometheus is reconciled with Zeus after revealing to Zeus the prophecy of Thetis' child becoming greater than Zeus himself [see Brian Donovan's &lt;a href=&quot;https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2515/what-happened-to-prometheus-after-hercules-freed-him/2516#comment8181_2516&quot;&gt;comment&lt;/a&gt; below for more clarification], which may derive from [Hyginus, Fabulae, 54][7], and is [predicted by Prometheus himself in the Aeschylus][8]. (If true, this 3rd play might have contained the answer on what Prometheus does *after* he is unbound, but there is an alternate theory holding that this play was actually the *first* in the trilogy, and depicted the events concerning the theft of fire.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Graves says that &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Mankind now began to wear rings in Prometheus' honour, and also wreathes, because when released, [Prometheus was ordered to crown himself with a willow wreath.][9]&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: Robert graves, The Greek Myths, 133.m, citing Athenaeus&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;so there's that. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For more info on this punishment and Athenaeus, see &quot;[The Author of the Prometheus Bound][10]&quot; by C.J. Herington.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;RELATED: [Prometheus Unbound by Percy Bysshe Shelley][11]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: Shelly is not part of the classical canon, but is a poet of sufficient stature to be included in the overall literary canon, so he is worth reading if you have an interest in this subject.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus_Unbound_(Aeschylus)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://archive.org/details/prometheusbound00allegoog&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/AeschylusFragments2.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=luomenos&amp;la=greek#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus_the_Fire-Bringer&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=purforos&amp;la=greek#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusFabulae2.html#54&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0010%3Acard%3D742&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://books.google.com/books?id=pGkbAgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT387&amp;lpg=PT387&amp;dq=Athenaeus%20prometheus&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=x7Da5pm4dO&amp;sig=KAmZZmm1fpWn-4D2LLtFBjnMLW4&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjZ1eDkkofTAhWI8YMKHcuhA1gQ6AEIHTAB#v=onepage&amp;q=Athenaeus%20prometheus&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://books.google.com/books?id=_IQODQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA125&amp;lpg=PA125&amp;dq=Athenaeus%20prometheus&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=rHMxwimU2X&amp;sig=bUrfdfuV4-Tbi_a6CukRkhJuD3k&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjZ1eDkkofTAhWI8YMKHcuhA1gQ6AEIGjAA#v=onepage&amp;q=Athenaeus%20prometheus&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus_Unbound_(Shelley)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11700" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2516" RevisionGUID="4e9a84ba-f443-4eb5-9dbc-2363a83d141e" CreationDate="2017-08-31T09:14:23.873" Comment="Proposed by 3639 approved by 57 edit id of 475" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11703" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2853" RevisionGUID="b4228c00-a0b5-44f5-aee3-04f9d9128f6e" CreationDate="2017-08-31T11:48:29.280" UserId="4093" Comment="added 192 characters in body" Text="&gt; The taskmaster in the story of Cupid and Psyche was Cupid's mother, the love goddess Venus or Aphrodite. Venus had never liked Psyche, so the opportunity of putting her to a series of tests gave Venus a chance to demand the seemingly impossible. In order for Psyche to win back her husband, Cupid, Venus set 4 seemingly impossible tasks before Psyche:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1. sorting out a huge pile of seeds &#xD;&#xA;2. retrieving the Golden Fleece,&#xD;&#xA;3. filling a flask from the water that fills the River Styx, and &#xD;&#xA;4. returning from the Underworld with a box of the beauty ointment of Proserpina (aka Persephone).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Source: [What Were the 4 Tasks Psyche Had to Complete?](https://www.thoughtco.com/what-were-the-4-tasks-psyche-had-to-complete-117893)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are more details behind it and how she has done it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also this [video][1] from TED-ED telling a smaller part of the story. (Which does not include the 4th task, I dont know why but it don't.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why Venus asked her to do these specific tests and what Psyche have learned from them? I want to know the meaning behind these tests. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://youtu.be/Gjj_-CPxjCM" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11704" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2904" RevisionGUID="8c08fe97-fc15-4a8f-939d-6bbde7a056c3" CreationDate="2017-08-31T12:26:28.953" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 8 characters in body; edited title" Text="Wikipedia suggests the English name of the concept is imprecise and provides no evidence of a relationship with dreaming: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The term is based on a rendition of the indigenous (Arandic) word alcheringa, used by the Aranda (Arunta, Arrernte) people of Central Australia, although it appears that it is based on a misunderstanding or mistranslation. William Stanner remarked: &quot;why the blackfellow thinks of 'dreaming' as the nearest equivalent in English is a puzzle&quot;. It has been argued that the word's meaning is closer to &quot;eternal, uncreated.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dreamtime. (2017, August 28). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved&#xD;&#xA;08:40, August 31, 2017, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dreamtime&amp;oldid=797624857&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do dreams play as significant a role in Dreamtime stories as the term suggests?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11705" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2904" RevisionGUID="8c08fe97-fc15-4a8f-939d-6bbde7a056c3" CreationDate="2017-08-31T12:26:28.953" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 8 characters in body; edited title" Text="Is there a relationship between the Dreamtime and dreaming?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11706" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2117" RevisionGUID="e4d75f8c-2aca-430a-9119-3bba13255763" CreationDate="2017-08-31T19:37:17.163" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="11709" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2906" RevisionGUID="8f7f75bb-3652-4161-8726-e0184ea36535" CreationDate="2017-09-01T02:53:27.143" UserId="4122" Text="If the word for &quot;grey-eyed&quot; and &quot;owl&quot; share a linguistic history, then the correct translation would be &quot;bright-eyed&quot; since literally it would read, &quot;with the eyes of an owl&quot; which generally fall in the spectrum of yellow or a neighboring color. This would make sense being that the owl is almost always associated with Athene " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11710" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1899" RevisionGUID="bb0d6213-33e3-4f43-9459-f3fc73a0455c" CreationDate="2017-09-01T05:42:38.507" UserId="57" Comment="clarified the question, based on the comments.; edited tags" Text="As we all probably know, the Greco-Roman and the Norse gods were, to put it in a mild manner, &quot;lustful&quot;. They had extramarital affairs, took on numerous lovers without before marriage and even raped others. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any instances where Egyptian gods are also promiscuous? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am not interested in instances of incest because that is basically how the Egyptian gods got married. What I am looking for, for example, is the Egyptian gods acting like Zeus, cheating on their wives or tricking mortals into affairs like in the story of Leda." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11712" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1899" RevisionGUID="bb0d6213-33e3-4f43-9459-f3fc73a0455c" CreationDate="2017-09-01T05:42:38.507" UserId="57" Comment="clarified the question, based on the comments.; edited tags" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11713" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2907" RevisionGUID="35b66113-cf28-46bf-bed5-4548867c13fa" CreationDate="2017-09-01T05:46:08.013" UserId="57" Text="Herodotus mentions an Egyptian *Dodekatheon* in Book 2: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Egyptians, they went on to affirm, first brought into use the names of the twelve gods, which the Greeks adopted from them; and first erected altars, images, and temples to the gods; and also first engraved upon stone the figures of animals. In most of these cases they proved to me that what they said was true. And they told me that the first man who ruled over Egypt was Min, and that in his time all Egypt, except the Thebaic canton, was a marsh, none of the land below Lake Moeris then showing itself above the surface of the water. This is a distance of seven days' sail from the sea up the river. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Again, the Egyptians disclaim all knowledge of the names of Neptune and the Dioscuri, and do not include them in the number of their gods; but had they adopted the name of any god from the Greeks, these would have been the likeliest to obtain notice, since the Egyptians, as I am well convinced, practised navigation at that time, and the Greeks also were some of them mariners, so that they would have been more likely to know the names of these gods than that of Hercules. But the Egyptian Hercules is one of their ancient gods. Seventeen thousand years before the reign of Amasis, the twelve gods were, they affirm, produced from the eight: and of these twelve, Hercules is one. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Book 2. The History of Herodotus. Translated by George Rawlinson&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The eight older gods are the [Ogdoad][1]. Who are the twelve younger ones?&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogdoad_(Egyptian)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11714" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2907" RevisionGUID="35b66113-cf28-46bf-bed5-4548867c13fa" CreationDate="2017-09-01T05:46:08.013" UserId="57" Text="Who are the twelve Egyptian gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11715" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2907" RevisionGUID="35b66113-cf28-46bf-bed5-4548867c13fa" CreationDate="2017-09-01T05:46:08.013" UserId="57" Text="|egyptian|pantheon|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11716" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2908" RevisionGUID="b71dca8d-1e2a-4cfc-b530-bf0e853faf63" CreationDate="2017-09-01T07:40:14.273" UserId="4123" Text="Everyone seems to have found different answers, and again after several years of obsessive research on the subject i found a slightly different interpretation. What i found was that Caliburn was originally Uther Pendragons sword, and after he died Merlin took his sword and stuck it into that rock, enchanting the blade so that no one could remove it. It later became known as the kings sword or the sword of the king when after many years of trying no one was able to remove it. Obviously, Arthur removed it, and it became his main sword. Later, Arthur recieved Excalibur from the lady of the lake, then several years later returned it to the lady of the lake. The last part is kind of hazy, but, he ends up getting it again, for the final battle, and after his death, during the final battle, merlin throws it back into the lake; returning it to the lady of the lake." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11717" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2908" RevisionGUID="5db1ea93-2670-4a24-b160-b71f776b1ab1" CreationDate="2017-09-01T08:28:20.347" UserId="57" Comment="added 6 characters in body" Text="Everyone seems to have found different answers, and again after several years of obsessive research on the subject, I found a slightly different interpretation. What I found was that Caliburn was originally Uther Pendragon's sword, and after he died Merlin took his sword and stuck it into that rock, enchanting the blade so that no one could remove it. It later became known as the king's sword or the sword of the king when after many years of trying no one was able to remove it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Obviously, Arthur removed it, and it became his main sword. Later, Arthur received Excalibur from the lady of the lake, then several years later returned it to the lady of the lake. The last part is kind of hazy, but, he ends up getting it again, for the final battle, and after his death, during the final battle, merlin throws it back into the lake; returning it to the lady of the lake." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11718" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2909" RevisionGUID="cb5da00a-de35-42f1-81e5-af4bdabb5452" CreationDate="2017-09-01T17:41:52.457" UserDisplayName="user1079" Text="The common view of critical scholarship is that the Revelation is a Jewish apocalypse, written circa AD 90-100. The beast which comes from the sea (chapter 13) or abyss (chapters 11, 17) is a symbol for the Roman Empire of the author's day. The seven heads of the beast, which 'are seven kings', somehow represent Roman emperors.&#xA;&#xA;By the late first century, the *Nero Redivivus* myth had emerged. In AD 68 the emperor Nero was declared an enemy of the empire. He subsequently stabbed himself in the neck and died, and he was quickly buried. But rumor arose that he hasn't really died, but escaped to Parthia out east. Or perhaps he had died, but would come back from the dead. Either way, it was said he would one day return with an army from beyond the Euphrates to conquer Rome. This myth received moderate acceptance by Jews and Christians alike, and can be found in apocalyptic texts like the Sibylline Oracles.&#xA;&#xA;Today's scholars believe the *Nero Redivivus* legend is reflected, in part or in whole, in a handful of passages in the Revelation. Chapter 9 mentions an immense army coming from the east, beyond the Euphrates. Chapter 13 has one of the beast's heads fatally wounded by a sword. Chapter 16 again mentions armies from beyond the Euphrates gathered for war (though here it seems to be Rome doing the gathering). Chapter 17 mentions how one of the beast's kings 'was, is not, and will come'. And of course, the number of the beast's name in chapter 13 is six hundred sixty-six, which equates to 'Nero Caesar' in gematria.&#xA;&#xA;After that, the biggest contention is whether the revelator meant or cared to identify any other emperors. The argument against is that the number seven is simply symbolic, meant to represent the idea of the emperors, with Nero being singled out because he was the first to actually instigate a persecution of Christians in AD 64. However, the trend in apocalyptic literature has the authors thinking of specific rulers. Daniel 11 never names names, but is otherwise an obvious recap of specific kings of the Seleucid and Ptolemaic dynasties. Fourth Ezra 11-12, written contemporary to the Revelation, symbolizes the Roman Empire as an eagle, and goes into detail about how its wings and feathers correspond to the line of emperors, going back to Julius Caesar. The Sibylline Oracles lists out the emperors (in isopsephy code) multiple times.&#xA;&#xA;Because Revelation 17 specifies not just the number of 'kings', but also when they would told (five have already passed, the sixth is current, the seventh will rule only a short time), it seems the revelator does indeed have specific emperors in mind. On this side, the debate is whether the revelator intended to begin his count with Julius Caesar (as in other apocalyptic literature) or with Augustus (the first 'official' emperor), and whether he intended to skip certain emperors (e.g. Galba, Otho, and Vitellius, who all died within a year after Nero's suicide). Because Revelation 13 seems to depict the death of Nero, yet mentions the beast's unexpected recovery — a true enough summary of the Year of the Four Emperors — he at least seems to be including the emperor who stabilized Rome.&#xA;&#xA;At minimum, the revelator has in mind Nero and Vespasian. Other than that, debate abounds even in critical scholarship." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11719" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2891" RevisionGUID="0a033a99-b970-456d-b3a5-da2651cdf1be" CreationDate="2017-09-01T18:27:42.310" UserId="967" Comment="added 12 characters in body" Text="Centaurs are borne from a cloud nymph named Nemphele and the Lapith king Ixion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story goes like this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Ixion is a terrible person, and deceitfully invites some poor dude to a &quot;banquet&quot; where he makes the person fall into a pit. (this is from memory)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Zeus takes pity (from him being a murderer), and decides to purify him by inviting Ixion to his own banquet.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Ixion, being a bad person, decides to try to win the love of Hera. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Zeus finds out, and makes a ghost of Hera from a cloud. Ixion has intercourse with the cloud (nymph).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Ixion lives torturedly(?) ever after. Nymph gives birth to some centaurs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Apollodorus, Epitome, e.1, section 21][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Ixion fell in love with Hera and attempted to force her; and when Hera reported it, Zeus, wishing to know if the thing were so, made a cloud in the likeness of Hera and laid it beside him; and when Ixion boasted that he had enjoyed the favours of Hera, Zeus bound him to a wheel, on which he is whirled by winds through the air; such is the penalty he pays. And the cloud, impregnated by Ixion, gave birth to Centaurus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Apollod.%20Epit.%20E.1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11720" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2910" RevisionGUID="5ef0161c-a7eb-4421-b9e0-0cb2ae8645ff" CreationDate="2017-09-02T00:21:49.780" UserId="3989" Text="The myth of Prometheus is commonly understood to account for how humanity first came to possess fire. Likewise the mythic content of the [Homeric Hymn to Demeter][1] is commonly understood to account for how the cycle of the seasons first came to be. And the ending of that same hymn, where Demeter teaches her rites to Triptolemos, is at least sometimes interpreted as accounting for how humanity first began to cultivate cereal crops—though the institution of the Eleusinian mystery cult might easily be the whole of that teaching. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Archaic-period sources oddly undercut these interpretations. In *Works and Days,* Hesiod sings that Zeus *hid* fire because Prometheus had deceived him. (How Prometheus deceived Zeus is not here specified, though in *Theogony* he tries and fails to deceive him concerning division of the flesh of sacrifice, between gods and mortals.) Zeus’s act of concealment is expressed by the verb [κρύψε][2], at [line 50][3], aorist indicative, so it is clearly a specific one-time act—before which fire would have been *unconcealed* and thus presumably available. And in that same line Prometheus is said not merely to steal it but to steal it *[back][4].* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [*Theogony* version][5] is ambiguous regarding the previous availability of fire. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Demeter hymn, Demeter is addressed by Hecate as [ὡρηφόρε][6], bringer of seasons (line 54). This occurs just after the abduction and well before the whole business of the mulberry or pomegranate seed, which accounts for Persephone’s annual migration between sunlit and underworld, which in turn is supposed to account for the alternation of the seasons. Granted that is a formulaic epithet (cf. ll. 192 &amp; 492), still it seems a thoroughly calculated formula for use in this myth. When Demeter resumes her divine form and tells Metaneira off (ll. 256–74), still before the pomegranate thing, she speaks of the circling seasons or years ([ὥρῃσιν][7]); but that could be just divine foresight.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The hymn more directly undermines any implication that the story accounts for the very beginning of cereal cultivation; for when Demeter withdraws from both the society of gods and her divine duty, causing famine—and *still* before the pomegranate thing—cereal cultivation was clearly already an established thing: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Then she caused a most dreadful and cruel [year][8] for [hu]mankind over the all-nourishing earth: the ground would not make the seed sprout, for rich-crowned Demeter kept it hid. In the fields the oxen drew many a curved plough in vain, and much white barley was cast upon the land without avail. (ll. 305–09 trans. Evelyn-White)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question is why this poetry is thus undercutting the myths’ etiological potential—that is, the potential for these myths to be answers to questions of how this or that state of affairs came about in the first place—like Kipling’s *Just So Stories.* Could this be in service to a worldview in which nothing can be new under the sun but all moves in cycles?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3atext%3a1999.01.0138%3ahymn%3d2&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=kru%2Fye&amp;la=greek&amp;can=kru%2Fye0&amp;prior=lugra/&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0131:card=42&amp;i=1&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0132%3Acard%3D42&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=au%29%3Dtis&amp;la=greek&amp;can=au%29%3Dtis0&amp;prior=me\n&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0131:card=42&amp;i=1&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D545&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=w%28rhfo%2Fre&amp;la=greek&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=w%28%2Frh%7Csin&amp;la=greek&amp;can=w%28%2Frh%7Csin0&amp;prior=i)/ausen&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0137:hymn=2&amp;i=1#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29niauto%5Cn&amp;la=greek&amp;can=e%29niauto%5Cn0&amp;prior=d%27&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0137:hymn=2&amp;i=1#lexicon" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11721" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2910" RevisionGUID="5ef0161c-a7eb-4421-b9e0-0cb2ae8645ff" CreationDate="2017-09-02T00:21:49.780" UserId="3989" Text="Why does archaic mythic literature undercut its own pretensions to explain origins?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11722" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2910" RevisionGUID="5ef0161c-a7eb-4421-b9e0-0cb2ae8645ff" CreationDate="2017-09-02T00:21:49.780" UserId="3989" Text="|greek|origins|hesiod|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11723" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2866" RevisionGUID="cdc4b625-4ee2-4a87-8733-e2229b7723c2" CreationDate="2017-09-02T01:38:47.337" UserId="1317" Comment="Grammar bothered me" Text="In the Greek drama (?) [Iphigenia][1], in order to be able to go on a war against Troy, the Greeks need wind, and for the wind, they need to sacrifice Agamemnon's daughter (the gods demand it). Menelaus wants him to **JUST DO IT!**, he's like: *&quot;Okay (screaming internally)&quot;*, but he does it in the end (the girl sacrifices herself).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Well I've got one question about this story:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why did the gods demand a human sacrifice, after they've put the last guy, who played [soylent green][2] on them, in Hell? (Ya know, that [Tantalus guy][3])?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://youtu.be/ifFsKCrH3GM?list=PLDb22nlVXGgfwG1qbOtNgu897E_ky_8To&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://youtu.be/9IKVj4l5GU4?t=25&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantalus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11724" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2866" RevisionGUID="cdc4b625-4ee2-4a87-8733-e2229b7723c2" CreationDate="2017-09-02T01:38:47.337" UserId="1317" Comment="Grammar bothered me" Text="Why did the gods demand Iphigenia's sacrifice?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11725" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2866" RevisionGUID="cdc4b625-4ee2-4a87-8733-e2229b7723c2" CreationDate="2017-09-02T01:38:47.337" Comment="Proposed by 1317 approved by 292, 171 edit id of 477" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11727" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2912" RevisionGUID="76b516ec-8b26-4402-be3f-e6b07de30cc6" CreationDate="2017-09-02T06:04:45.237" UserId="4129" Text="Salt is a preservative. The Tarim Mummies were preserved in salt for 4000 years.  If you pack meat in salt it will not rot. (Because it sucks all the water out and kills any bacteria.  Water is necessary for life.) Since people could not see microscopic organisms before the invention of microscopes rot, decay, and putrefaction were associated with evil spirits.  Since salt prevents rot it must logically drive away evil spirits. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Smoke can also act as a preservative, and has some of the same associations. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11728" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2913" RevisionGUID="8d7deffb-f250-41c0-88b4-8de5f20ff930" CreationDate="2017-09-02T07:02:12.420" UserId="4129" Text="Ents and Huorns. There are plenty of talking trees in mythology but nothing like the Ents. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tom Bombadil is original to Tolkien.  Although I would argue that he is a nature spirit, similar to some of the Jotun, of Scandinavian lore.  He appears to be a benevolent trickster, who is a manifestation nature itself.  His wife Goldenberry is said to be a river spirit.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hobbits are also original to Tolkien unless you class them as fairies or any kind of &quot;little people&quot; like leprechauns, or the hill people of ancient Britain.  But Hobbits seem to be completely unmagical, simply a race of small humanoids who live in holes in the ground and live long lives.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Orcs and Uruk-hai are original to Tolkien and appear to be based on goblins and demons. Wikipedia says &quot;Orc is from Old English orcneas, which appears in the epic poem Beowulf, and refers to one of the races who are called the offspring of Cain during the initial description of Grendel&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Fell beasts the Nazgûl Steeds seem pretty unique.  They seem to be sort of horse-like with bat wings.  Sort of like evil pegasi. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Elves, dwarves, trolls, goblins, wizards (magical practitioners), and giants are all pretty common in Scandinavian and Germanic mythology.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The name Balrog was original to Tolkien but they seem to be a kind of demon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Barrow-wights, wraiths, and various kinds of fighting dead (including fighting skeletons), and vengeful ghosts exist in Norse mythology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most of the rest just seem to be large talking animals, which are pretty common in mythology and folklore everywhere." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11735" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="364" RevisionGUID="92f5953a-16b9-491d-a97b-f7d859b16114" CreationDate="2017-09-02T21:24:14.540" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|underworld|afterlife|funerary-practices|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11736" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="675" RevisionGUID="a01ab7f7-c14e-47c7-b596-75a210704e63" CreationDate="2017-09-02T21:24:20.603" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|sacrifice|funerary-practices|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11737" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1311" RevisionGUID="93503315-3be8-4f31-bc52-d26339ec43f9" CreationDate="2017-09-02T21:24:52.167" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|funerary-practices|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11738" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1954" RevisionGUID="1e49331d-d16b-4597-9926-05c345d73239" CreationDate="2017-09-02T21:24:57.693" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|christianity|superstition|afterlife|funerary-practices|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11739" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1886" RevisionGUID="cc1678f2-68e4-4fd2-80e0-c082ad9cf524" CreationDate="2017-09-02T21:25:58.553" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|egyptian|afterlife|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11740" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2915" RevisionGUID="1bf83d27-1963-44a9-b190-d61650ca4e8f" CreationDate="2017-09-02T21:28:58.780" UserId="57" Text="In ancient Egyptian mummies, the heart was the only organ that stayed in the body. This was because the heart would be [weighed against the feather of Ma'at](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maat#The_Weighing_of_the_Heart) in the Hall of Two Truths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Romano-Egyptian portrait mummy of Herakleides](http://www.getty.edu/art/collection/objects/13306/unknown-maker-mummy-with-cartonnage-and-portrait-romano-egyptian-50-100-ad/#e5774634101662fc92ba204200f38bc2b8981d83) (50 - 100 A.D.) represents a break with tradition; the lungs were left inside the body&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; instead of the heart. Why is that? What use would Herakleides have for his lungs in the afterlife?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; [The Mummification Process (Getty Museum)](http://www.getty.edu/art/collection/video/399888/the-mummification-process/)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11741" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2915" RevisionGUID="1bf83d27-1963-44a9-b190-d61650ca4e8f" CreationDate="2017-09-02T21:28:58.780" UserId="57" Text="Why were the lungs left inside the mummy of Herakleides, instead of the heart?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11742" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2915" RevisionGUID="1bf83d27-1963-44a9-b190-d61650ca4e8f" CreationDate="2017-09-02T21:28:58.780" UserId="57" Text="|roman|egyptian|afterlife|funerary-practices|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11743" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2884" RevisionGUID="401a3999-f569-4359-b85c-6adc4a57f588" CreationDate="2017-09-02T23:41:40.530" UserId="3230" Comment="edited title" Text="Who are the seven kings in Revelation?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11744" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2916" RevisionGUID="d57bf790-a15e-45f3-9f12-1103acbc8f1a" CreationDate="2017-09-02T23:41:50.313" UserId="3230" Text="From Revelation 4 (KJ21): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; And round about the throne were four and twenty seats; and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment, and they had on their heads crowns of gold.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who are these &quot;four and twenty&quot; elders?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11745" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2916" RevisionGUID="d57bf790-a15e-45f3-9f12-1103acbc8f1a" CreationDate="2017-09-02T23:41:50.313" UserId="3230" Text="Who are the twenty four elders in Revelation?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11746" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2916" RevisionGUID="d57bf790-a15e-45f3-9f12-1103acbc8f1a" CreationDate="2017-09-02T23:41:50.313" UserId="3230" Text="|christianity|revelation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11747" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="2902" RevisionGUID="a15da460-346d-4bd1-a181-d00c955b905a" CreationDate="2017-09-02T23:47:16.410" UserId="-1" Comment="104" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:967,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;bleh&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:62,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Hamlet&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:171,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Kreann&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:3230,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Girsan Virlee&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="11750" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2917" RevisionGUID="d461736f-e7dc-4953-8887-75bcb6d15fd6" CreationDate="2017-09-03T01:35:58.023" UserId="3230" Text="In Greek mythology, Geryon was a three-headed (or three-bodied) giant Hercules slew during one of his labors. Dante places him in the seventh circle of hell and presents him as a manifestation of fraud (Canto XVII). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I find this confusing because the [Greek myths regarding the giant][1] do not show him to be deceptive or fraudulent. He's just unlucky Hercules was asked to steal his cattle. Why did Dante decide to use Geryon as a symbol of fraud?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Gigante/GiganteGeryon.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11751" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2917" RevisionGUID="d461736f-e7dc-4953-8887-75bcb6d15fd6" CreationDate="2017-09-03T01:35:58.023" UserId="3230" Text="Why is Dante using Geryon as a symbol of fraud?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11752" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2917" RevisionGUID="d461736f-e7dc-4953-8887-75bcb6d15fd6" CreationDate="2017-09-03T01:35:58.023" UserId="3230" Text="|greek|symbolism|dante|inferno|divine-comedy|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11753" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2910" RevisionGUID="b83e0732-fc3f-4928-ace6-4a49313f1625" CreationDate="2017-09-03T12:19:36.250" UserId="3989" Comment="added 31 characters in body" Text="The myth of Prometheus is commonly understood to account for how humanity first came to possess fire. Likewise the mythic content of the [Homeric Hymn to Demeter][1] is commonly understood to account for how the cycle of the seasons first arose. And the ending of that same hymn, where Demeter teaches her rites to Triptolemos, is at least sometimes interpreted as accounting for how humanity first began to cultivate cereals—though the institution of the Eleusinian mystery cult might easily be the whole of that teaching. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Archaic-period sources oddly undercut these interpretations. In *Works and Days,* Hesiod sings that Zeus *hid* fire because Prometheus had deceived him. (How Prometheus deceived Zeus is not here specified, though in *Theogony* he tries and fails to deceive him concerning division of the flesh of sacrifice, between gods and mortals.) Zeus’s act of concealment is expressed by the verb [κρύψε][2], at [line 50][3], aorist in tense and indicative in mood, so it is clearly a specific one-time act—before which fire would have been *unconcealed* and thus presumably available. And in that same line Prometheus is said not merely to steal it but to steal it *[back][4].* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [*Theogony* version][5] is ambiguous regarding the previous availability of fire. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Demeter hymn, Demeter is addressed by Hecate as [ὡρηφόρε][6], bringer of seasons (line 54). This occurs just after the abduction and well before the whole business of the mulberry or pomegranate seed, which accounts for Persephone’s annual migration between sunlit and underworld, which in turn is supposed to account for the alternation of the seasons. Granted that that is a formulaic epithet (cf. ll. 192 &amp; 492), still it seems a thoroughly calculated formula for use in this myth. When Demeter resumes her divine form and tells Metaneira off (ll. 256–74), still before the pomegranate thing, she speaks of the circling seasons or years ([ὥρῃσιν][7])—though of course that could be just divine foresight.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The hymn more directly undermines any implication that the story accounts for the very beginning of cereal cultivation; for when Demeter withdraws from both the society of gods and her divine duty, causing famine—and *still* before the pomegranate thing—cereal cultivation was clearly already an established practice: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Then she caused a most dreadful and cruel [year][8] for [hu]mankind over the all-nourishing earth: the ground would not make the seed sprout, for rich-crowned Demeter kept it hid. In the fields the oxen drew many a curved plough in vain, and much white barley was cast upon the land without avail. (ll. 305–09 trans. Evelyn-White)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question is why this poetry is thus undercutting the myths’ etiological potential—that is, the potential for these myths to be answers to questions of how this or that state of affairs came about in the first place—like Kipling’s *Just So Stories.* Could this be in service to a worldview in which nothing can be new under the sun but all moves in cycles?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3atext%3a1999.01.0138%3ahymn%3d2&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=kru%2Fye&amp;la=greek&amp;can=kru%2Fye0&amp;prior=lugra/&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0131:card=42&amp;i=1&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0132%3Acard%3D42&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=au%29%3Dtis&amp;la=greek&amp;can=au%29%3Dtis0&amp;prior=me\n&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0131:card=42&amp;i=1&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D545&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=w%28rhfo%2Fre&amp;la=greek&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=w%28%2Frh%7Csin&amp;la=greek&amp;can=w%28%2Frh%7Csin0&amp;prior=i)/ausen&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0137:hymn=2&amp;i=1#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29niauto%5Cn&amp;la=greek&amp;can=e%29niauto%5Cn0&amp;prior=d%27&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0137:hymn=2&amp;i=1#lexicon" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11754" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2918" RevisionGUID="ea90b184-cc14-4083-b498-9360da117051" CreationDate="2017-09-03T14:57:08.420" UserId="3989" Text="Translator-poet John Ciardi (Dante, *The Inferno,* Signet Classics, 2001, p. 139) offers the following annotation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;GERYON. A mythical king of Spain represented as a giant with three heads and three bodies. He was killed by Hercules, who coveted the king’s cattle. A later tradition represents him as killing and robbing strangers whom he lured into his realm. It is probably on this account that Dante chose him as the prototype of fraud, though in a radically altered bodily form. Some of the details of Dante’s Geryon may be drawn from *Revelations,* ix, 9–20, but most of them are almost certainly his own invention: a monster with the general shape of a dragon but with the tail of a scorpion, hairy arms, a gaudily-marked reptilian body, and the face of a just and honest man. The careful reader will note that the gaudily-spotted body suggests the Leopard; the hairy paws, the Lion; and that the human face represents the essentially human nature of Fraud, which thus embodies corruption of the Appetite, of the Will, and of the Intellect. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11756" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2909" RevisionGUID="716ddd31-21f5-4aa6-802e-265a8f1cbe8e" CreationDate="2017-09-03T22:26:08.520" UserDisplayName="user1079" Comment="Typos, and some clarification." Text="The common view of critical scholarship is that the Revelation is a Jewish apocalypse, written circa AD 90-100. The beast which comes from the sea (chapter 13) or abyss (chapters 11, 17) is a symbol for the Roman Empire of the author's day. The seven heads of the beast, which 'are seven kings', somehow represent Roman emperors.&#xA;&#xA;By the late first century, the *Nero Redivivus* myth had emerged. In AD 68 the emperor Nero was declared an enemy of the empire. He subsequently stabbed himself in the neck and died, and he was quickly buried. But rumor arose that he hadn't really died, but escaped to Parthia out east. Or perhaps he had died, but would come back from the dead. Either way, it was said he would one day return with an army from beyond the Euphrates to conquer Rome. This myth received moderate acceptance by Jews and Christians alike, and can be found in apocalyptic texts like the Sibylline Oracles.&#xA;&#xA;Today's scholars believe the *Nero Redivivus* legend is reflected, in part or in whole, in a handful of passages in the Revelation. Chapter 9 mentions an immense army coming from the east, beyond the Euphrates. Chapter 13 has one of the beast's seven heads (which symbolize seven kings) fatally wounded by a sword, followed by the beast's unexpected recovery. Chapter 16 again mentions armies from beyond the Euphrates gathered for war (though here it seems to be Rome doing the gathering). Chapter 17 mentions how one of the beast's kings 'was, is not, and will come'. And of course, the number of the beast's name in chapter 13 is six hundred sixty-six, which equates to 'Nero Caesar' in gematria.&#xA;&#xA;After that, the biggest contention is whether the revelator meant or cared to identify any other emperors. The argument against is that the number seven is simply symbolic, meant to represent the idea of the emperors, with Nero being singled out because he was the first to actually instigate a persecution of Christians in AD 64. However, the trend in apocalyptic literature has the authors thinking of specific rulers. Daniel 11 never names names, but is otherwise an obvious recap of specific kings of the Seleucid and Ptolemaic dynasties. Fourth Ezra 11-12, written contemporary to the Revelation, symbolizes the Roman Empire as an eagle, and goes into detail about how its wings and feathers correspond to the line of emperors, going back to Julius Caesar. The Sibylline Oracles lists out the emperors (in isopsephy code) multiple times.&#xA;&#xA;Because Revelation 17 specifies not just the number of 'kings', but also when they would told (five have already passed, the sixth is current, the seventh will rule only a short time), it seems the revelator does indeed have specific emperors in mind. On this side, the debate is whether the revelator intended to begin his count with Julius Caesar (as in other apocalyptic literature) or with Augustus (the first 'official' emperor), and whether he intended to skip certain emperors (e.g. Galba, Otho, and Vitellius, who all died within a year after Nero's suicide). Because Revelation 13 seems to depict the death of Nero, yet mentions the beast's unexpected recovery — a true enough summary of the Year of the Four Emperors — he seems to be including the emperor who stabilized Rome, Vespasian.&#xA;&#xA;At minimum, the revelator has in mind Nero, and possibly also Vespasian. Other than that, debate abounds even in critical scholarship." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11757" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2919" RevisionGUID="5f7d5c98-0611-4e44-98f7-05fc9338c755" CreationDate="2017-09-04T12:54:19.830" UserId="1241" Text="**Who are the twenty four elders in Revelation?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Traditionally they are the symbolic **representation of 12 tribes of Israel and 12 Apostles** representing the entire church from Adam to the end of the world is very easy to ascribe to. Besides the winged creatures are often thought as angels so all the more reason to consider the 24 elders (a name given to church members) as symbolic of humans, not angels.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For anyone open to the Catholic interpretation, the following is offered.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Many non-Catholic as well as Catholic scholars have noticed that the whole structure of Revelation is a big Passover liturgy where Christ, the Priest King, the firstborn Son and the Lamb looking as though it's been slain conducts and celebrates the heavenly liturgy. And the earthly liturgy is meant to be a reflection in that, a participation in that, and the early Church took it for granted.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Chapter 4, verse 8 of Revelation we read:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 8 Each of the four figures had six wings, with eyes everywhere looking outwards and inwards; day and night they cried unceasingly, Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God, the Almighty, who ever was, and is, and is still to come. 9 And as often as these figures gave glory and honour and blessing to him who sat on the throne, who lives for ever and ever, 10 **the twenty-four elders fell down in worship before him who sat on the throne**, who lives for ever and ever, and threw down their crowns before the throne, crying out,3 11 Thou, our Lord God, claimest as thy due glory and honour and power; by thee all things were created; nothing ever was, nothing was ever created, but in obedience to thy will.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Catholic theology understands the number of the elders (24) to be both the 12 tribes of Israel, as well as the 12 Apostles. The 12 tribes are symbolic of all of God’s children in the Old Testament, or before Christ. It obviously follows that the 12 Apostles represent all of God’s elect until the end of the world. This is a perfect example of how St. John uses numeric signs and symbols throughout his Apocalypse. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The footnote entry for [Revelation 4:8][1] in the New American Version (Catholic bible) is as follows: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [4:1–11] The seer now describes a vision of the heavenly court in worship of God enthroned. He reverently avoids naming or describing God but pictures twenty-four elders in priestly and regal attire (Rev 4:4) and God’s throne and its surroundings made of precious gems and other symbols that traditionally express the majesty of God (Rev 4:5–6). Universal creation is represented by the four living creatures (Rev 4:6–7). Along with the twenty-four elders, they praise God unceasingly in humble adoration (Rev 4:8–11).&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Twenty-four elders: these represent the twelve tribes of Israel and the twelve apostles; cf. Rev 21:12–14.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his [General Audience of Jan. 12, 2005][2], Pope Saint John Paul II the Great preaches a sermon entitled By the Blood of the Lamb. He begins his edifying exposition of this perennial Catholic doctrine by commenting on how the 24 elders represent the worship of God’s chosen people:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1.The hymn that has just resounded ideally comes down from heaven. In fact, the Book of Revelation that presents it links the first part (cf. 11: 17-18) to the &quot;twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God&quot; (11: 16), and in the second strophe (cf. 12: 10-12) to &quot;a loud voice in heaven&quot; (12: 10). We are thus involved in a grandiose portrayal of the divine court where God and the Lamb, that is, Christ, surrounded by the &quot;Council of the Crown&quot;, judge human history in good and in evil but also reveal history's ultimate end of salvation and glory. The role of the Canticles that spangle the Book of Revelation is to illustrate the topic of the divine lordship that controls the often bewildering flow of human events. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2.In this regard, the first passage of our Canticle is significant. **It is set on the lips of the 24 elders who seem to symbolize God's Chosen People in their two historical phases, the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 Apostles of the Church.** Now, the almighty and eternal Lord God &quot;has taken [his] great power and begun to reign&quot; (11: 17). His entry into history does not only aim to curb the violent reactions of rebels (cf. Ps 2: 1, 5), but above all to exalt and reward the just. These are defined with a series of words used to describe the spiritual features of Christians. They are &quot;servants&quot; who comply faithfully with the divine law; they are &quot;prophets&quot;, endowed with the revealed word that interprets and judges history; they are &quot;saints&quot;, consecrated to God, who revere his name, that is, they are ready to adore him and to do his will. Among them there are &quot;small and great&quot;, an expression dear to the author of the Book of Revelation (cf. 13: 16; 19: 5, 18; 20: 12) which he uses to designate the People of God in its unity and variety. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other interpretations do exist. Some hold that the Twenty-Four Elders are [angels][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;   Revelation 4:4 declares, “Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.” The book of Revelation nowhere specifically identifies who the twenty-four elders are. However, they are most likely representative of the Church. It is unlikely that they are angelic beings, as some suggest. The fact that they sit on thrones indicates that they reign with Christ. Nowhere in Scripture do angels ever rule or sit on thrones. The Church, however, is repeatedly said to rule and reign with Christ (Revelation 2:26-27, 5:10, 20:4; Matthew 19:28; Luke 22:30).&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In addition, the Greek word translated here as “elders” is never used to refer to angels, only to men, particularly to men of a certain age who are mature and able to rule the Church. The word elder would be inappropriate to refer to angels, who do not age. Their mode of dress would also indicate these are men. While angels do appear in white, white garments are more commonly found on believers, symbolizing Christ’s righteousness imputed to us at salvation (Revelation 3:5,18; 19:8).&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The golden crowns worn by the elders also indicate these are men, not angels. Crowns are never promised to angels, nor are angels ever seen wearing them. The word translated “crown” here refers to the victor’s crown, worn by those who have successfully competed and won the victory, as Christ promised (Revelation 2:10; 2 Timothy 4:8; James 1:12).&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Some people believe these twenty-four elders represent Israel, but at the time of this vision, Israel as a whole nation had not yet been redeemed. The elders cannot represent tribulation saints for the same reason—not all had yet been converted at the time of John’s vision. The most likely option is that the elders represent the raptured Church which sings songs of redemption (Revelation 5:8-10). They wear the crowns of victory and have gone to the place prepared for them by their Redeemer (John 14:1-4). - [&quot;Who are the twenty-four (24) elders in Revelation?&quot;][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Coptic Orthodox commemorates the twenty-four Elders of Revelation on **Hator 24** ([Coptic Liturgical Calendar][5]): [The Commemoration of the Twenty-Four Priests.][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; On this day, we commemorate the twenty-four incorporeal priests of the Most High, who are sitting around His throne. They are exalted above all the saints and the spiritual hosts. Because of their closeness to God, they intercede on behalf of the human race and offer the prayers of the saints as incense, in the golden censers in their hands, before the Glorious and Blessed Lord.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The fathers of the church arranged this feast to commemorate them. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Their intercession be for us and Glory be to our God forever. Amen.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the end, one can say that no one answer is the absolute perfect response to this question. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.usccb.org/bible/revelation/4&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/audiences/2005/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_20050112.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.evidenceunseen.com/bible-difficulties-2/nt-difficulties/jude/rev-44-who-are-the-24-elders-mentioned-here/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.gotquestions.org/24-elders.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_calendar&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://copticchurch.net/synaxarium/3_24.html#1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11758" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2920" RevisionGUID="3aafe439-c12a-4743-a99e-a95f0d6ad413" CreationDate="2017-09-04T23:09:35.643" UserId="57" Text="The [Yara-ma-yha-who][1] is the indigenous Australian version of the vampire. It's a &quot;little red man with a very big head, a large mouth with no teeth and suckers on the ends of its hands and feet&quot; that lives on fig trees, drops down on unsuspecting travellers and drains their blood.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why fig trees? What is it about them that makes them the ideal habitat for this fascinating creature?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yara-ma-yha-who" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11759" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2920" RevisionGUID="3aafe439-c12a-4743-a99e-a95f0d6ad413" CreationDate="2017-09-04T23:09:35.643" UserId="57" Text="Why does the Yara-ma-yha-who live on fig trees?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11760" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2920" RevisionGUID="3aafe439-c12a-4743-a99e-a95f0d6ad413" CreationDate="2017-09-04T23:09:35.643" UserId="57" Text="|mythical-creatures|folklore|indigenous-australian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11761" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2921" RevisionGUID="c97b2c63-055f-4531-8d12-719be435fa0a" CreationDate="2017-09-05T07:35:28.923" UserId="57" Text="Wikipedia is very thin on details, this is all it's offering: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He was a cannibal giant, ultimately defeated by the resourcefulness of the family of a hunter he had killed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Thardid Jimbo. (2017, July 2). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 07:31, September 5, 2017, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Thardid_Jimbo&amp;oldid=788611181&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why did the giant kill the hunter? How did the hunter's family defeat him?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11762" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2921" RevisionGUID="c97b2c63-055f-4531-8d12-719be435fa0a" CreationDate="2017-09-05T07:35:28.923" UserId="57" Text="What is Thardid Jimbo's story?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11763" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2921" RevisionGUID="c97b2c63-055f-4531-8d12-719be435fa0a" CreationDate="2017-09-05T07:35:28.923" UserId="57" Text="|indigenous-australian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11764" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2922" RevisionGUID="9f83ae9f-551d-46a9-b3c7-c84c9c1b1d9d" CreationDate="2017-09-05T17:33:23.673" UserId="3092" Text="Egyptian Osiris is associated with vegetation and this is what [Wikipedia][1] says about him:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Through syncretism with Iah, he is also the god of the Moon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is what Wikipedia says about Jarilo, Slavic god of vegetation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; From comparison to Baltic mythology and from Slavic folklore accounts,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; one can deduce that Jarilo was associated with the Moon. His somewhat&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mischievous nature, which ultimately results in his betrayal of his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wife, was likened to the Moon's changing phases.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, [Soma][2], post-Vedic Hindu god of plants and vegetables, has also a strong relation with the Moon?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it a coincidence or there are more patterns like that? What could be a reason for a correlation like that (vegetation vs. Moon)?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soma_(deity)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11765" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2922" RevisionGUID="9f83ae9f-551d-46a9-b3c7-c84c9c1b1d9d" CreationDate="2017-09-05T17:33:23.673" UserId="3092" Text="Do vegetation deities tend to be connected with the Moon?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11766" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2922" RevisionGUID="9f83ae9f-551d-46a9-b3c7-c84c9c1b1d9d" CreationDate="2017-09-05T17:33:23.673" UserId="3092" Text="|greek|comparative|egyptian|slavic|vedic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11767" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2922" RevisionGUID="ede87b1f-8b43-4df5-9fc8-037c13ce0370" CreationDate="2017-09-05T19:45:10.180" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11768" PostHistoryTypeId="9" PostId="2922" RevisionGUID="3f957cd4-66a5-49f9-8edd-0a6ae5b1d6c2" CreationDate="2017-09-05T19:45:29.770" UserId="967" Comment="Rollback to [9f83ae9f-551d-46a9-b3c7-c84c9c1b1d9d]" Text="|greek|comparative|egyptian|slavic|vedic|" />
  <row Id="11769" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2922" RevisionGUID="04c60db9-74ff-469d-85ce-549482318cea" CreationDate="2017-09-05T19:45:44.707" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|comparative|egyptian|slavic|vedic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11770" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2923" RevisionGUID="90e4f8a5-dd51-451f-a188-4f870a6b4b83" CreationDate="2017-09-05T22:11:28.190" UserId="967" Text="Page 273 of [the google books][1] is hidden&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the long long ago, in a cave in the land of Ge Rill Ghillie, there lived Thardid Jimbo, a great giant who stood ...(page 273)&lt;br&gt;Mummulberry, availing himself of this fact (shrug) came unperceived almost alongside the kangaroo he was tracking, speared it in a vital spot, killed it instantly, and dragged it away. When he had gone quite a distance from the other kangaroos he found a convenient spot and made a fire and cooked his prey.&lt;br&gt; In the meantime Thardid Jimbo,with rapid strides, covered a good distance, snatching up goannas and lizards that came in his way. Gazing intently upon the ground, he noticed the footprints of Mummulbery and the kangaroo. He followed the tracks, and saw the pole with the eaglehawk's wings tied to it. A little farther on he came to the place where the kangaroo had been killed. Still going onward, he no longer looked on the ground for footprints, because he could now smell burning wood and roasting kangaroo.&lt;br&gt;He continued on his way guided by the smell. Suddenly he came upon Mummulberry feeding on the liver and heart of the kangaroo. He stepped back a few paces and stood, watching him with big, wicked, and cruel eyes. Presently Mummulbery looked up and saw before him a great big being. He immediately recognized the being as Thardid Jimbo, the enemy of man, of whom he had heard so much. Mummelbery quickly took up his spear and placed it on the wommera ready to battle. Thardid Jimbo saw this action. He knew too well that even his brute force was no match for the skill and inteligence of man. Remembering that there were scores of spear-marks and many wounds upon his body caused by boomerangs during a pitched battle between himself and man, he sat down about ten yards away from Mummulbery. He made a fire, and enjoyed a meal of half-cooked goannas and lizards. Mummulbery placed his spear on the dground and sat upon a log, watching Thardid Jimbo, who was eating his food in a disgusting manner. Mummulbery, filled with pity, cut a leg from the cooked kangaroo and offered it to Thardid Jimbo, who quickly accepted it. he ate greedily, and crunched the bones between his powerful jaws, and swallowed both flesh and bone. Now it was at this time Thardid looked at Mummulbery's neck as if something had attracted his attention. He said, &quot;I see a louse.&quot; Mummulbery, taken off his guard, asked him to remove it. Thardid Jimbo, seizing the  oppurtunity, opened his mouth wide and bit Mummulbery in the neck, servering the head from the body. &lt;br&gt;Thardid Jimbo now thre the body of Mummulbery into the fire. After roasting it a while he took it from the fire and hung it on a tree. Then he thought he would follow Mummulbery's footprints to his house. The sister wives, hearing footsteps approaching, thought that their husband had returned. With faces smiling to greet him, they looked up and saw a sight that almost froze in their veins. For there, standing before him, was Thardid Jimbo, the enemy of mankind.&lt;br&gt; Thardid Jimbo said to the frightened girls, &quot;I have killed a man yonder, and have roasted his body and hung it up on a tree.&quot; They realized that the victim was their husband, and tears began to roll down their cheeks. He said, &quot;why do you look so sad? Why do you weep? I see tears in your eyes.&quot; &quot;They are caused,&quot; said the wives, &quot;by the smarting of the smike.&quot; Thardid Jimbo said to them, &quot;I have come to take you to my home and make you my wives.&quot; The elder sister said, &quot;We have not tasted food, and we are faint with hunger. Grant us one favour, and then we will follow you. In yonder cave there lives a dog with his wife and family. We shall take it as a great favour to eat the flesh of puppies caught by your hands, O brave.&quot; &lt;br&gt; Thardid Jimbo turned and beckoned that they would follow him and see him bring the prize. When they arrived at the cave Thardid Jimbo entered it, and presently came out carrying the dead body of the (female dog), with the warm blood trickling from a wound inflicted by a blow of his mighty arm. He threw the corpse down at their feet, entered the cave a second time, and returned with nine puppies, a month old. He said, &quot;Thy request is granted Fair One of the Dawn.&quot; Then the younger sister said pleadingly, &quot;Will you be my brave and bring me the dog?&quot; This so flattered Thardid Jimbo that he entered the cave a third time. The sister knew that the dog would not be easily captured, and that the pursuit would lead Thardid Jimbo to the far end of the cave, which was a very long one. This would give them an opportunity for action. After waiting for a few moments the younger sister called from the entrance of the cave, &quot;O my brave, I am faint with hunger. Bring me the dog. I am craving for the flesh of the dog.&quot; She kept shouting and calling to him to bring the fog to her while the elder sister was busily engaged in closing up the entrance to the cave with boughs, sticks, and logs. The younger sister then crawled through these and helped the elder one to carry more sticks and logs. Then they both sat down to make a fire after the usual fashion, by rubbing two sticks together. When the fire was alight they placed it along the wood and branches, which caught fire and burned quickly. The smoke and heat entered the cave, and when Thardid Jimbo felt the smoke smarting his eyes he ran to the entrance. There he found a blazing fire in front of him. He made one desperate leap to get over it, but he fell short, and dropped into the fire and was quickly consumed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;TLDR, He kills the hunter just because he hates and likes eating humans. The sisters defeat him by luring him into a cave and then burning the entrance.&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=NXSEpixcYukC&amp;printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11771" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2924" RevisionGUID="9c25e2ec-5c59-4224-992c-63339e60b11e" CreationDate="2017-09-05T22:26:34.717" UserId="3741" Text="I don't know much about the Kievan Rus, and I can't find any good sources about the worship practices of the Rus or much about their mythology. I have found a load of sources for the baptism of the Rus, but nothing about how they worshiped their own pantheon." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11772" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2924" RevisionGUID="9c25e2ec-5c59-4224-992c-63339e60b11e" CreationDate="2017-09-05T22:26:34.717" UserId="3741" Text="In what ways did the Rus worship their gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11773" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2924" RevisionGUID="9c25e2ec-5c59-4224-992c-63339e60b11e" CreationDate="2017-09-05T22:26:34.717" UserId="3741" Text="|slavic|worship|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11774" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2923" RevisionGUID="54159e51-f756-4ef7-9efe-3f69d6b11890" CreationDate="2017-09-06T07:53:43.947" UserId="57" Comment="moved tldr at the top; added book title" Text="**TL;DR** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He kills the hunter just because he hates and likes eating humans. The sisters defeat him by luring him into a cave and then burning the entrance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A version of the story can be found on *Myths and Legends of the Australian Aborigines*, by W. Ramsay Smith. Unfortunately, the page isn't available in [google books][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the long long ago, in a cave in the land of Ge Rill Ghillie, there lived Thardid Jimbo, a great giant who stood ... (page 273)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mummulberry, availing himself of this fact (shrug) came unperceived almost alongside the kangaroo he was tracking, speared it in a vital spot, killed it instantly, and dragged it away. When he had gone quite a distance from the other kangaroos he found a convenient spot and made a fire and cooked his prey.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the meantime Thardid Jimbo, with rapid strides, covered a good distance, snatching up goannas and lizards that came in his way. Gazing intently upon the ground, he noticed the footprints of Mummulbery and the kangaroo. He followed the tracks, and saw the pole with the eaglehawk's wings tied to it. A little farther on he came to the place where the kangaroo had been killed. Still going onward, he no longer looked on the ground for footprints, because he could now smell burning wood and roasting kangaroo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He continued on his way guided by the smell. Suddenly he came upon Mummulberry feeding on the liver and heart of the kangaroo. He stepped back a few paces and stood, watching him with big, wicked, and cruel eyes. Presently Mummulbery looked up and saw before him a great big being. He immediately recognized the being as Thardid Jimbo, the enemy of man, of whom he had heard so much. Mummelbery quickly took up his spear and placed it on the *wommera* ready to battle. Thardid Jimbo saw this action. He knew too well that even his brute force was no match for the skill and intelligence of man. Remembering that there were scores of spear-marks and many wounds upon his body caused by boomerangs during a pitched battle between himself and man, he sat down about ten yards away from Mummulbery. He made a fire, and enjoyed a meal of half-cooked goannas and lizards. Mummulbery placed his spear on the ground and sat upon a log, watching Thardid Jimbo, who was eating his food in a disgusting manner. Mummulbery, filled with pity, cut a leg from the cooked kangaroo and offered it to Thardid Jimbo, who quickly accepted it. he ate greedily, and crunched the bones between his powerful jaws, and swallowed both flesh and bone. Now it was at this time Thardid looked at Mummulbery's neck as if something had attracted his attention. He said, &quot;I see a louse.&quot; Mummulbery, taken off his guard, asked him to remove it. Thardid Jimbo, seizing the oppurtunity, opened his mouth wide and bit Mummulbery in the neck, severing the head from the body. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thardid Jimbo now threw the body of Mummulbery into the fire. After roasting it a while he took it from the fire and hung it on a tree. Then he thought he would follow Mummulbery's footprints to his house. The sister wives, hearing footsteps approaching, thought that their husband had returned. With faces smiling to greet him, they looked up and saw a sight that almost froze in their veins. For there, standing before him, was Thardid Jimbo, the enemy of mankind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thardid Jimbo said to the frightened girls, &quot;I have killed a man yonder, and have roasted his body and hung it up on a tree.&quot; They realized that the victim was their husband, and tears began to roll down their cheeks. He said, &quot;why do you look so sad? Why do you weep? I see tears in your eyes.&quot; &quot;They are caused,&quot; said the wives, &quot;by the smarting of the smoke.&quot; Thardid Jimbo said to them, &quot;I have come to take you to my home and make you my wives.&quot; The elder sister said, &quot;We have not tasted food, and we are faint with hunger. Grant us one favour, and then we will follow you. In yonder cave there lives a dog with his wife and family. We shall take it as a great favour to eat the flesh of puppies caught by your hands, O brave.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thardid Jimbo turned and beckoned that they would follow him and see him bring the prize. When they arrived at the cave Thardid Jimbo entered it, and presently came out carrying the dead body of the (female dog), with the warm blood trickling from a wound inflicted by a blow of his mighty arm. He threw the corpse down at their feet, entered the cave a second time, and returned with nine puppies, a month old. He said, &quot;Thy request is granted Fair One of the Dawn.&quot; Then the younger sister said pleadingly, &quot;Will you be my brave and bring me the dog?&quot; This so flattered Thardid Jimbo that he entered the cave a third time. The sister knew that the dog would not be easily captured, and that the pursuit would lead Thardid Jimbo to the far end of the cave, which was a very long one. This would give them an opportunity for action. After waiting for a few moments the younger sister called from the entrance of the cave, &quot;O my brave, I am faint with hunger. Bring me the dog. I am craving for the flesh of the dog.&quot; She kept shouting and calling to him to bring the fog to her while the elder sister was busily engaged in closing up the entrance to the cave with boughs, sticks, and logs. The younger sister then crawled through these and helped the elder one to carry more sticks and logs. Then they both sat down to make a fire after the usual fashion, by rubbing two sticks together. When the fire was alight they placed it among the wood and branches, which caught fire and burned quickly. The smoke and heat entered the cave, and when Thardid Jimbo felt the smoke smarting his eyes he ran to the entrance. There he found a blazing fire in front of him. He made one desperate leap to get over it, but he fell short, and dropped into the fire and was quickly consumed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=NXSEpixcYukC&amp;printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11775" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2043" RevisionGUID="4671b688-a45d-4af3-aa45-3b1e61479b30" CreationDate="2017-09-06T11:26:56.163" UserId="3092" Comment="edited title" Text="Why do snake (serpent) and bull often come together as symbols of deities?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11776" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2922" RevisionGUID="cb350ce7-dbf7-46c5-b648-402310f5a955" CreationDate="2017-09-06T12:19:00.527" UserId="3092" Comment="added 50 characters in body" Text="Egyptian Osiris is associated with vegetation and this is what [Wikipedia][1] says about him:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Through syncretism with Iah, he is also the god of the Moon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is what [Wikipedia][2] says about Jarilo, Slavic god of vegetation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; From comparison to Baltic mythology and from Slavic folklore accounts,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; one can deduce that Jarilo was associated with the Moon. His somewhat&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mischievous nature, which ultimately results in his betrayal of his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wife, was likened to the Moon's changing phases.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, [Soma][3], post-Vedic Hindu god of plants and vegetables, has also a strong relation with the Moon?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it a coincidence or there are more patterns like that? What could be a reason for a correlation like that (vegetation vs. Moon)?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarilo&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soma_(deity)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11777" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2925" RevisionGUID="4f5939b7-3c53-44ad-b7f6-ba9ebe928902" CreationDate="2017-09-06T12:19:40.853" UserId="4143" Text="I am currently working on a performance where the hero have to make it through the underworld and back. There are things such a traveler should bring such a journey. The most known is the coins for the ferry. What other things may be wise to bring?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;V.F" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11778" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2925" RevisionGUID="4f5939b7-3c53-44ad-b7f6-ba9ebe928902" CreationDate="2017-09-06T12:19:40.853" UserId="4143" Text="What is smart to bring for a travel through the UNDERWORLD?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11779" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2925" RevisionGUID="4f5939b7-3c53-44ad-b7f6-ba9ebe928902" CreationDate="2017-09-06T12:19:40.853" UserId="4143" Text="|underworld|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11780" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2925" RevisionGUID="9eece8d5-ff22-4f09-8c8f-f9c44745cced" CreationDate="2017-09-06T12:40:15.167" UserId="57" Comment="added 84 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="I am currently working on a performance where the hero has to make it through the underworld and back. I am assuming there are things such a traveller could bring with them to safely complete the journey. A well-known example would be the coin for Charon's ferry.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What other items would help a mortal to safely travel in the underworld?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11781" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2925" RevisionGUID="9eece8d5-ff22-4f09-8c8f-f9c44745cced" CreationDate="2017-09-06T12:40:15.167" UserId="57" Comment="added 84 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="What items are necessary for a mortal to safely travel in the underworld?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11782" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2925" RevisionGUID="9eece8d5-ff22-4f09-8c8f-f9c44745cced" CreationDate="2017-09-06T12:40:15.167" UserId="57" Comment="added 84 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|greek|underworld|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11783" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2925" RevisionGUID="c0540644-a6ae-4c39-bb76-0a0669cd1039" CreationDate="2017-09-06T12:45:09.243" UserId="57" Comment="edited title" Text="What items are necessary for a mortal to travel safely in the underworld?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11784" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2925" RevisionGUID="c0540644-a6ae-4c39-bb76-0a0669cd1039" CreationDate="2017-09-06T12:45:09.243" UserId="57" Comment="edited title" Text="I am currently working on a performance where the hero has to make it through the underworld and back. I am assuming there are things such a traveller could bring with them to safely complete the journey. A well-known example would be the coin for Charon's ferry.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What other items would help a mortal to travel safely in the underworld?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11788" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2926" RevisionGUID="70e5ffd4-e2dc-4f94-9427-02e0f03ea34b" CreationDate="2017-09-06T19:29:23.573" UserId="4145" Text="While there are plenty of modern and literary references to the Loas, I can't seem to find any narratives of the Loas themselves. Are there any narratives available or are the Loas best defined by their personalities and spheres of influence?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11789" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2926" RevisionGUID="70e5ffd4-e2dc-4f94-9427-02e0f03ea34b" CreationDate="2017-09-06T19:29:23.573" UserId="4145" Text="Narratives in Haitian (or other) Vodou?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11790" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2926" RevisionGUID="70e5ffd4-e2dc-4f94-9427-02e0f03ea34b" CreationDate="2017-09-06T19:29:23.573" UserId="4145" Text="|reference-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11791" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2927" RevisionGUID="2e0ec13e-8941-4b6c-ab7c-c2e9f80b6364" CreationDate="2017-09-06T19:47:00.593" UserId="2892" Text="In terms of whether lunar deities *in general* tend to be connected to the moon, my high-level sense is that this is not the case *per se*, though I'd have to do more digging to be more definitive.  However,  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of why lunar deities may be connected to the moon:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Lunar calendars][1] predate [solar calendars][2] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The earliest methods of tracking when to plant was based on lunar cycles&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Knowing when to plant could mean the difference between prosperity and starvation, so it was a subject of central importance in agricultural societies from earliest time.  The impetus toward astronomy comes out of this practical problem of tracking the seasons.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lunar calendars have been around for at least 10,000 years, whereas solar calendars are much later innovations, with the Julian Calendar dating back only about 2,000 years.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This would be a likely explanation for association of agriculture with lunar deities, as cycles of generation tend to be a preoccupation of pagan religions in general.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_calendar&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_calendar" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11792" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2928" RevisionGUID="6990a1fa-48ce-445c-b425-22b2ba786d6e" CreationDate="2017-09-06T20:37:40.363" UserId="2892" Text=" - Symbolically, Dante's rendering is a metaphor for fraud: a human face (honest and just) atop a monstrous personage&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Multiple heads or bodies in the Classical depiction can indicate deception strategies.  (For instance, one head could befriend you while the others plot your destruction.  If multiple bodies, one could attack from behind.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*For example, Ravanna, the [rakshasha][1] king in the Ramayana, is famously many-headed and [employs deception in capturing Sita][2] to lure Rama to Lanka.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a fragment from Stesichorus that implies Heracles himself used stealth to defeat Geryon, which seems strange per Heracles' legendary strenght: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;In his mind he distinguished [Herakles who was deliberating on whether to kill Geryon by stealth or in an open fight,] . . ((lacuna)); it seemed to him to be much better . . ((lacuna)) to fight by stealth . . ((lacuna)) against the mighty man; . . ((lacuna)) (crouching) on one side he devised for him . . bitter destruction;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Stesichorus, Geryoneis Fragment S15 | Theoi][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Possibly there was something more to Geryon than his physical might, prompted Heracles to be cautious and employ an indirect method of attack.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;The impetus for Dante's reconfiguration may have been toward a more compact and visceral form for the metaphor. &quot;Monster with a human face&quot; seems to be critical component. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakshasa&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramayana#Aranya_Kanda&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theoi.com/Gigante/GiganteGeryon.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11793" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2753" RevisionGUID="c383f9ca-7890-4987-9708-47b271391109" CreationDate="2017-09-07T00:39:35.497" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="11795" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2930" RevisionGUID="f6708de5-afdc-41e5-81b4-849d17228b1f" CreationDate="2017-09-07T11:45:48.970" UserId="57" Text="Wikipedia lists the three creatures as originating in Tasmanian mythology, but other than a very short description it provides no details or references: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Tasmania**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Willauk, giant demon that inhabited Lake Derwent&#xD;&#xA;- Tebwem, flesh-eating ghost of southern Tasmania&#xD;&#xA;- Pioial, giant scorpion like creature&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;List of Australian Aboriginal mythological figures. (2017, August 13). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 11:38, September 7, 2017, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Australian_Aboriginal_mythological_figures&amp;oldid=795293807&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do we know of any tales that feature these creatures?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11796" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2930" RevisionGUID="f6708de5-afdc-41e5-81b4-849d17228b1f" CreationDate="2017-09-07T11:45:48.970" UserId="57" Text="What are the stories of the Willauk, the Tebwem and the Pioial?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11797" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2930" RevisionGUID="f6708de5-afdc-41e5-81b4-849d17228b1f" CreationDate="2017-09-07T11:45:48.970" UserId="57" Text="|mythical-creatures|indigenous-australian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11798" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2930" RevisionGUID="ca38c7e6-fdaa-4667-9574-1efb6e5c394c" CreationDate="2017-09-07T11:52:54.837" UserId="57" Comment="added 188 characters in body" Text="Wikipedia lists the three creatures as originating in Tasmanian mythology, but other than a very short description it provides no details or references: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Tasmania**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Willauk, giant demon that inhabited Lake Derwent&#xD;&#xA;- Tebwem, flesh-eating ghost of southern Tasmania&#xD;&#xA;- Pioial, giant scorpion like creature&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;List of Australian Aboriginal mythological figures. (2017, August 13). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 11:38, September 7, 2017, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Australian_Aboriginal_mythological_figures&amp;oldid=795293807&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A cursory web search revealed no additional information, all references I stumbled upon either point to or regurgitate the linked Wikipedia article. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do we know of any tales that feature these creatures? Where can I learn more about them?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11800" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2930" RevisionGUID="d6d8ec44-0862-4737-bb8a-6a0192bdf3b4" CreationDate="2017-09-07T14:28:16.717" UserId="57" Comment="edited title" Text="What do we know of the Willauk, the Tebwem and the Pioial?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11802" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2931" RevisionGUID="df9ed2f0-912d-45d6-81b1-939d228e29fc" CreationDate="2017-09-07T18:24:25.793" UserId="3230" Text="This is inspired from: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2925/what-items-are-necessary-for-a-mortal-to-travel-safely-in-the-underworld&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which living people made it into the underworld and back? What are their stories, and what characteristics do these stories share?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11803" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2931" RevisionGUID="df9ed2f0-912d-45d6-81b1-939d228e29fc" CreationDate="2017-09-07T18:24:25.793" UserId="3230" Text="Stories of living people that journeyed into the underworld and back?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11804" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2931" RevisionGUID="df9ed2f0-912d-45d6-81b1-939d228e29fc" CreationDate="2017-09-07T18:24:25.793" UserId="3230" Text="|greek|myth-identification|underworld|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11808" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="2921" RevisionGUID="c5a9a716-1e4f-4369-88ea-8d0d23ae5f1b" CreationDate="2017-09-07T18:40:00.520" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="51" />
  <row Id="11809" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2932" RevisionGUID="bd38c4e1-07d5-40f7-b099-63179ff2257a" CreationDate="2017-09-07T19:51:05.030" UserId="4148" Text="The term &quot;sister wife&quot; occurs in Ancient Greek Literature, in reference to a woman who is both a wife and a (full-or-half) sister of her husband, but my question is in regards to Greek Mythology: Who had a sister wife? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11810" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2932" RevisionGUID="bd38c4e1-07d5-40f7-b099-63179ff2257a" CreationDate="2017-09-07T19:51:05.030" UserId="4148" Text="Greek Mythology: Who had a &quot;sister wife&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11811" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2932" RevisionGUID="bd38c4e1-07d5-40f7-b099-63179ff2257a" CreationDate="2017-09-07T19:51:05.030" UserId="4148" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11812" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2933" RevisionGUID="787972fb-5488-496d-bbd3-d67474ce0db2" CreationDate="2017-09-07T22:07:41.263" UserId="292" Text="Zeus, as his wife Hera was [also his wife][1]. They were carrying on family tradition, as their parents, Cronos and Rhea, were [also siblings][2], while their parents Ouranos and Gaia [varied the formula][3]: he was her son.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;I was surprised to see that as far as I can tell, none of the other major Greek deities got together with their siblings, except for [Posedion][4], who raped his sister Demeter, and [Hephaistos][5], who tried to do the same with Athena.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Hera&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.greekmythology.com/Titans/Rhea/rhea.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Ouranos.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/DemeterFamily.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/HephaistosLoves.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11813" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2932" RevisionGUID="861aba06-eb20-4c56-a430-57f25d0ea1ee" CreationDate="2017-09-08T07:22:59.297" UserId="57" Comment="edited body; edited title" Text="The term &quot;sister wife&quot; occurs in ancient Greek literature, in reference to a woman who is both a wife and a (full-or-half) sister of her husband, but my question is in regards to Greek mythology: Who had a sister wife? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11814" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2932" RevisionGUID="861aba06-eb20-4c56-a430-57f25d0ea1ee" CreationDate="2017-09-08T07:22:59.297" UserId="57" Comment="edited body; edited title" Text="Who had a &quot;sister wife&quot; in Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11815" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2933" RevisionGUID="7fab0b72-9f5d-480c-9810-d5f2fc333c08" CreationDate="2017-09-08T07:23:16.597" UserId="57" Comment="edited body" Text="Zeus, as his wife Hera was [also his wife][1]. They were carrying on family tradition, as their parents, Cronos and Rhea, were [also siblings][2], while their parents Ouranos and Gaia [varied the formula][3]: he was her son.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;I was surprised to see that as far as I can tell, none of the other major Greek deities got together with their siblings, except for [Poseidon][4], who raped his sister Demeter, and [Hephaistos][5], who tried to do the same with Athena.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Hera&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.greekmythology.com/Titans/Rhea/rhea.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Ouranos.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/DemeterFamily.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/HephaistosLoves.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11817" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2935" RevisionGUID="60da92e2-bf62-4867-a7d2-8d91018244f6" CreationDate="2017-09-08T12:55:03.773" UserId="57" Text="Medea murders her brother Absyrtus to facilitate her's and Jason's escape from Colchis. In some versions of the myth - most notably in Euripides's eponymous play - she also murders her sons to revenge Jason for abandoning her. Yet, uncharacteristically for kin-killers in Greek mythology, she suffers no punishment for her crimes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is that? Why isn't Medea punished?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11818" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2935" RevisionGUID="60da92e2-bf62-4867-a7d2-8d91018244f6" CreationDate="2017-09-08T12:55:03.773" UserId="57" Text="Why does Medea escape punishment?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11819" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2935" RevisionGUID="60da92e2-bf62-4867-a7d2-8d91018244f6" CreationDate="2017-09-08T12:55:03.773" UserId="57" Text="|greek|medea|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11820" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2936" RevisionGUID="abb88a2c-3d5d-4632-8189-590f8debab07" CreationDate="2017-09-08T19:13:23.707" UserId="2911" Text="When a hero takes a trip into the underworld, it's referred to as [katabasis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katabasis). I've included immortals in the listing. The following are but five of many such stories in Greek myth.&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;The god Dionysus rescued his mortal mother, Semele, from Hades. He does so by facing down Thanatos himself. Afterward, he gives Semele part of his divinity, making her immortal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Heracles (pre-immortality) rescued Theseus (who had previously tried and failed to abduct Persephone) during his twelfth labor. He did so by persuading Persephone to forgive Theseus.  On a separate occasion, rescued Aclestis (who had chosen to die in her husband's stead) from Hades by wrestling Thanatos until the god of death agreed to free her, in return for her husband's previous generous hospitality.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After Persephone was taken by Hades, Hermes entered the underworld at the behest of her mother Demeter, in an attempt to bring her back -- but, as Hades had fed her a pomegranate there, she was required to live the winter in the underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After his oak nymph wife Eurydice was killed by a viper's bite, Orpheus played a mourning song so sad that the deities told him where to find her: in the underworld.  After Orpheus descended into the underworld, he put the guardian dog Cerberus to sleep with his magical music.  Hades was so moved by his music that he made a bet with him: if he could silently lead Eurydice back to the surface without looking back to see her, he could keep her. When Orpheus was nearly to the surface, he looked back and lost the bet.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In one Greek/Roman myth Psyche, a princess to beautiful that people believed her to be Aphrodite/Venus's daughter, was targeted by the jealous goddess and, when her son Eros/Cupid joined the princess, put her to trial.  One trial was to take a box into the underworld to retrieve an extract of Persephone/Prosperina's beauty.  Psyche, after despairing and attempting suicide only to be guided to a safe passage to the underworld by the tower she was going to throw herself off of, enters the underworld with cakes to feed Cerberus and coins to give to Charon, paying for her return trip.  Upon returning to the light, she opens the box out of curiosity and is struck into a deep sleep.  She is later rescued by Eros/Cupid.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11821" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2937" RevisionGUID="8d899d7a-c4e5-4478-afc6-992a3277fd10" CreationDate="2017-09-09T05:54:34.207" UserId="2682" Text="In the theogony found in Hyginus’ *Fabulae*, Caligine, “Fog,” gives birth to Chaos and then marries him. Their son **Erebus**, “Darkness,” then marries his own sister Nox, “Night.” Erebus and Nox then have a son **Aether** who marries his own sister Diēs, “Day.” **Caelus**, “Sky,” and Terra, “Earth,” are the son and daughter of Aether and Diēs. They too become each other’s spouses and produce numerous sons and daughters, almost all of whom marry one another.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Fabulae* is a Roman version or interpretation of Greek myths, with the Greek names more or less swapped out for Roman ones. Hyginus’ theogony differs on various points from the much more ancient writing, actually entitled *Theogony*, and written by Hesiod. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Caligine, the thick mist of darkness from which Chaos emerged, does not seem to correspond to any very obvious Greek counterpart, but Chaos = Khaos; Erebus = Erebos; Nox = Nyx; Aether = Aither; Diēs = Hemera; Caelus is Ouranos [Uranus]; and Terra is Gaia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Hesiod’s *Theogony*, Erebos, Nyx and Gaia are born out of Khaos, or they simply emerge afterwards from the same universal nothingness that at first engenders Khaos. Gaia then gives birth to Ouranos and to Pontos (the Sea), and she consorts with both of these sons of hers. Hesiod’s and Hyginus’s accounts of the children of Ouranos/Caelus and Gaia/Terra correspond fairly closely from this point on in the shared chronology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ouranos and Gaia had twelve children called the Titans, six male and six female. Of the six male Titans the only one who did not marry a female Titan is **Kreios** [Crius], who married his own half-sister Eurybia, a daughter of Pontos and Gaia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Each of the rest married a full-sister of his own, specifically: **Okeanos** [Oceanus] married Tethys; **Koios** [Coeus] married Phoibe [Phoebe], **Hyperion** married Theia; **Iapetos** married Themis (although there are versions in which Iapetos’ wife was his own niece, a daughter of Okeanos); and **Kronos** [Cronus] married Rhea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sea-god **Phorkys** [Phorcys], a son of Pontos and Gaia, married his own sister, the sea monster Keto [Ceto]. They are best known as the parents of the Gorgon Medusa.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The river **Inakhos** [Inachus], a son of Okeanos, married his own sister Melia. One of Zeus’s earliest consorts Io, the mother of Epaphos, was one of their children.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Zeus**, the king of the gods, was a son of Kronos and Rhea. According to Hesiod’s *Theogony*, he was married six times to different relatives (almost all cousins and aunts) of his before settling down with his seventh wife Hera, who was his own full-sister. The fourth in the series of wives, Demeter, was also a full-sister of his (as per Lines 912-914). It is from their union that Persephone, who grows up to marry her uncle **Hades**, is born. In [the Orphic version of this story](https://books.google.com/books?id=FQ2pAK9luwkC&amp;pg=PA331) (as alluded to by Daniel Ogden in *Drakon: Dragon Myth and Serpent Cult*), Zeus’s mother Rhea threatens Zeus in the form of a dragon. Zeus likewise transforms into a dragon in retaliation and rapes Rhea, who is mystically identified with Demeter. It is in this fashion that Persephone is produced, who is thus, actually, a half-sister (as well as a niece) of her husband Hades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus had a son named Tantalos [Tantalus] whose mother was a nymph named Plouto [Pluto]. According to Hyginus, Plouto’s father was called Himas. The Scholia on Euripides’ *Orestes* and on Pindar’s *Olympian Ode* 3 say that Plouto’s father was either a certain Himantes or the Titan Kronos. It might be that Himas and Himantes are names of Kronos. In his [encyclopaedia article](http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NymphePlouto.html) of the Plouto personage, Aaron Atsma notes the following:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Nonnus appears to identify Plouto with the Phrygian goddess&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kybele (Cybele), attaching the Kybelian epithet Berekyntia to her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; name. Indeed, Mount Sipylos, the home of Plouto, was a well-known cult&#xD;&#xA;&gt; centre of Kybele.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;One ancient scholiast calls Plouto a daughter of Kronos (Cronus)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; clearly identifying her with Demeter, the goddess of agricultural&#xD;&#xA;&gt; prosperity (*plouton*). Demeter was also sometimes identified by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greeks with the Asian Kybele.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;An Okeanis Nymphe named Plouto also appears in the lists of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hesiod. It is unclear if she was connected with Plouto the mother of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tantalos.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his *Dionysiaka*, Nonnus calls Plouto the bride of Zeus, implying a marital union at some point in time between Zeus and Plouto. If Plouto is to indeed be understood as Kronos’ daughter, then she would have been Zeus's sister (or at least half-sister) as well as his wife.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his *Bibliotheka Historika*, Diodorus Siculus says that **Iasion**, son of Zeus and Elektra, was married to Kybele. Pausanias says that Kybele was the daughter of the Phrygian sky-god Dios, whom he calls Zeus, by the earth-goddess, whom he identifies with Gaia. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Quintus Smyrnaeus’ *Fall of Troy* cites Enyo, a sort of female version of **Ares**, as the sister of this war-god. The associations between Ares and Enyo may be intended merely as symbolic but certain hints among them imply that they were married to each other. Enyalios is either the son of Ares and Enyo or is merely a title of Ares.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At different points in time, Ares’ brother the fire-god **Hephaistos** [Hephaestus] was married to two half-sisters of his. The first is the love-goddess Aphrodite, daughter of Zeus and Dione (although there is a more dramatic version of her origin, in which she sort of doesn’t have any parents). After the divorce between Hephaistos and Aphrodite, the fire-god married one of Aphrodite’s sidekicks, Aglaia, who was one of the three Kharites [Charites], “Graces,” daughters of Zeus and Eurynome. Hephaistos himself was either the son of Zeus and Hera, or Hera gave birth to him without the assistance of male seed. In the latter instance, then, he would be the brother of neither Aphrodite nor Aglaia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Aphareus** was the son of Perieres (son of Aiolos [Aeolus], son of Hellen, son of Deukalion [Deucalion], son of Prometheus) by Gorgophone, daughter of Perseus the Gorgon-Slayer. After his father’s death, Aphareus’ mother Gorgophone became, according to Pausanias’ [*Description of Greece* 2.21.7](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Paus.+2.21.7), the first woman ever to remarry. Arene was the daughter of Gorgophone by her new husband Oibalos [Oebalus]. When they had grown up, Aphareus got married to his half-sister Arene. Idas and Lynkeus [Lynceus], who became notorious as rivals of their kinsmen the Dioskouroi [Dioscuri], were the sons of Aphareus and Arene. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Herakles**, the son of Zeus by Alkmene (a niece of Gorgophone), after he died and became a god on Mt Olympos [Olympus], was married to his own half-sister Hebe, a daughter of Zeus and Hera." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11822" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2938" RevisionGUID="f9cfd1a3-678c-4915-a57a-15e868bb0735" CreationDate="2017-09-10T08:25:15.700" UserId="348" Text="What mythological alternatives, if any, are there to explaining the existence of multiple languages than the Tower of Babel or myths that are similar in nature?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I once came across a myth at a wildlife park near Melbourne, Australia, about animals speaking different languages after arguments broke out amongst different animals, but I don't think it involved human languages." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11823" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2938" RevisionGUID="f9cfd1a3-678c-4915-a57a-15e868bb0735" CreationDate="2017-09-10T08:25:15.700" UserId="348" Text="Alternative to Tower of Babel explanations for linguistic diversity" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11824" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2938" RevisionGUID="f9cfd1a3-678c-4915-a57a-15e868bb0735" CreationDate="2017-09-10T08:25:15.700" UserId="348" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11825" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2939" RevisionGUID="0ce04614-3781-453f-a1b7-0cc0843245b9" CreationDate="2017-09-10T19:53:18.490" UserId="183" Text="Apollonius of Rhodes, in his [*The Argonautica*](http://classics.mit.edu/Apollonius/argon.html), tells that Medea and the Argonauts actually *did* fall out of favor with the gods for killing Absyrtus. Zeus found out fairly quickly and was characteristically angry:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When Apsyrtus had fallen in mighty overthrow Zeus himself, king of gods, was seized with wrath at what they had done. And he ordained that by the counsels of Aeaean Circe they should cleanse themselves from the terrible stain of blood and suffer countless woes before their return.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[*The Argonautica*](http://classics.mit.edu/Apollonius/argon.4.iv.html), Book IV&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is not immediately made clear to the voyagers, and they blissfully travel onwards. Fortunately, Hera takes command and stirs up a storm, pushing them to the island of Electra, where they are told of Zeus' command. After passing through more dangers (as per the &quot;countless woes&quot;), they reache Circe, living on Aeaea. When she discovers what they have done, she offers a sacrifice to Zeus, thereby purifying the murderers:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And straightway Circe became aware of the doom of a suppliant and the guilt of murder. Wherefore in reverence for the ordinance of Zeus, the god of suppliants, who is a god of wrath yet mightily aids slayers of men, she began to offer the sacrifice with which ruthless suppliants are cleansed from guilt when they approach the altar. First, to atone for the murder still unexpiated, she held above their heads the young of a sow whose dugs yet swelled from the fruit of the womb, and, severing its neck, sprinkled their hands with the blood; and again she made propitiation with other drink offerings, calling on Zeus the Cleanser, the protector of murder- stained suppliants. And all the defilements in a mass her attendants bore forth from the palace--the Naiad nymphs who ministered all things to her. And within, Circe, standing by the hearth, kept burning atonement-cakes without wine, praying the while that she might stay from their wrath the terrible Furies, and that Zeus himself might be propitious and gentle to them both, whether with hands stained by the blood of a stranger or, as kinsfolk, by the blood of a kinsman, they should implore his grace. &#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[*The Argonautica*](http://classics.mit.edu/Apollonius/argon.4.iv.html), Book IV&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It might seem strange that Medea was let off so easily - honestly, reading the passage, it seems like a token ceremony. However, remember that the voyage the Aeaea was fraught with peril; it was only due to a second intervention by Hera that the Argonauts survived at all. Apollonius doesn't spend much time on this, but it's important nonetheless.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as I can tell, Medea's filicide was the invention of Euripedes; it wasn't in the older versions of the tales. It's also a morally ambiguous act. Medea originally conceives of the idea to punish Jason, who wants to marry Glauce:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; . . . for that [murder] will stab my husband to the heart.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Medea, [*Medea*](http://classics.mit.edu/Euripides/medea.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She of course wrestles with her qualms, but later on, she also tries to justify it by saying that if she doesn't kill her children, they will either be murdered or tortured by someone else:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Nay, by the fiends of hell's abyss, never, never will I hand my children over to their foes to mock and flout. Die they must in any case, and since 'tis so, why I, the mother who bore them, will give the fatal blow. In any case their doom is fixed and there is no escape.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Medea, [*Medea*](http://classics.mit.edu/Euripides/medea.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She repeats this thought process shortly before actually killing her sons:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; My friends, I am resolved upon the deed; at once will I slay my children and then leave this land, without delaying long enough to hand them over to some more savage hand to butcher. Needs must they die in any case; and since they must, I will slay them-I, the mother that bare them.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Medea, [*Medea*](http://classics.mit.edu/Euripides/medea.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Presumably, Medea thinks it is impossible for her to escape if she still has her children. Therefore, she wants to avoid subjecting them to more pain. She clearly still loves them; just read any of her short soliloquys on the subject. In the very end, she rejects her original motivation - to harm Jason - and attempts to commit the murder out of love.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's worth noting that Jason, too, believes the children might be harmed, because of Medea's murder of Glauce. However, his response is to protect them, not kill them - although he arrives too late:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As for her, those whom she hath wronged will do the like by her; but I am come to save the children's life, lest the victim's kin visit their wrath on me, in vengeance for the murder foul, wrought by my children's mother.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Jason, [*Medea*](http://classics.mit.edu/Euripides/medea.html)&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11827" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="2904" RevisionGUID="ff5dd601-415c-417d-b516-02cee52c1d8f" CreationDate="2017-09-11T11:12:04.787" UserId="57" Comment="52" />
  <row Id="11832" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2941" RevisionGUID="e7aaa08e-ffb7-4ca7-9865-e8227b5b69ac" CreationDate="2017-09-11T23:31:11.507" UserId="3741" Text="Surprisingly, many of these exist. To list a few there's the Aztec belief:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Aztecs' story maintains that only a man, Coxcox, and a woman, Xochiquetzal, survive, having floated on a piece of bark. They found themselves on land and begot many children who were at first born unable to speak, but subsequently, upon the arrival of a dove were endowed with language, although each one was given a different speech such that they could not understand one another.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's the greek myth about linguistic diversity, which I find to be interesting, although not very unique:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Ancient Greece there was a myth which told that for ages men had lived without law under the rule of Zeus and speaking one language, gifted to them by the god and goddess of ingenuity, Philarios and Philarion. The god Hermes brought diversity in speech and along with it separation into nations and discord ensued.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One that I find interesting in particular is a south Australian myth:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In remote time an old woman, named Wurruri lived towards the east and generally walked with a large stick in her hand, to scatter the fires around which others were sleeping, Wurruri at length died. Greatly delighted at this circumstance, they sent messengers in all directions to give notice of her death; men, women and children came, not to lament, but to show their joy. The Raminjerar were the first who fell upon the corpse and began eating the flesh, and immediately began to speak intelligibly. The other tribes to the eastward arriving later, ate the contents of the intestines, which caused them to speak a language slightly different. The northern tribes came last and devoured the intestines and all that remained, and immediately spoke a language differing still more from that of the Raminjerar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I hope these are helpful and if you want to learn more you can go the [Wikipedia page on Mythical origins of language][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythical_origins_of_language" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11833" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2942" RevisionGUID="49f2d3af-8178-4950-93f4-166a248c938d" CreationDate="2017-09-12T00:31:57.923" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11834" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2942" RevisionGUID="49f2d3af-8178-4950-93f4-166a248c938d" CreationDate="2017-09-12T00:31:57.923" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11835" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2943" RevisionGUID="13def934-542a-4d7b-8e15-9405bb1e81a2" CreationDate="2017-09-12T00:31:57.923" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11836" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2943" RevisionGUID="13def934-542a-4d7b-8e15-9405bb1e81a2" CreationDate="2017-09-12T00:31:57.923" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11838" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2939" RevisionGUID="080d10c9-93f8-4d59-8c31-ddbc2b0bef72" CreationDate="2017-09-12T01:30:21.033" UserId="183" Comment="Mentioned that Medea also killed Glauce." Text="Apollonius of Rhodes, in his [*The Argonautica*](http://classics.mit.edu/Apollonius/argon.html), tells that Medea and the Argonauts actually *did* fall out of favor with the gods for killing Absyrtus. Zeus found out fairly quickly and was characteristically angry:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When Apsyrtus had fallen in mighty overthrow Zeus himself, king of gods, was seized with wrath at what they had done. And he ordained that by the counsels of Aeaean Circe they should cleanse themselves from the terrible stain of blood and suffer countless woes before their return.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[*The Argonautica*](http://classics.mit.edu/Apollonius/argon.4.iv.html), Book IV&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is not immediately made clear to the voyagers, and they blissfully travel onwards. Fortunately, Hera takes command and stirs up a storm, pushing them to the island of Electra, where they are told of Zeus' command. After passing through more dangers (as per the &quot;countless woes&quot;), they reache Circe, living on Aeaea. When she discovers what they have done, she offers a sacrifice to Zeus, thereby purifying the murderers:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And straightway Circe became aware of the doom of a suppliant and the guilt of murder. Wherefore in reverence for the ordinance of Zeus, the god of suppliants, who is a god of wrath yet mightily aids slayers of men, she began to offer the sacrifice with which ruthless suppliants are cleansed from guilt when they approach the altar. First, to atone for the murder still unexpiated, she held above their heads the young of a sow whose dugs yet swelled from the fruit of the womb, and, severing its neck, sprinkled their hands with the blood; and again she made propitiation with other drink offerings, calling on Zeus the Cleanser, the protector of murder- stained suppliants. And all the defilements in a mass her attendants bore forth from the palace--the Naiad nymphs who ministered all things to her. And within, Circe, standing by the hearth, kept burning atonement-cakes without wine, praying the while that she might stay from their wrath the terrible Furies, and that Zeus himself might be propitious and gentle to them both, whether with hands stained by the blood of a stranger or, as kinsfolk, by the blood of a kinsman, they should implore his grace. &#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[*The Argonautica*](http://classics.mit.edu/Apollonius/argon.4.iv.html), Book IV&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It might seem strange that Medea was let off so easily - honestly, reading the passage, it seems like a token ceremony. However, remember that the voyage the Aeaea was fraught with peril; it was only due to a second intervention by Hera that the Argonauts survived at all. Apollonius doesn't spend much time on this, but it's important nonetheless.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as I can tell, Medea's filicide was the invention of Euripedes; it wasn't in the older versions of the tales. It's also a morally ambiguous act. Medea originally conceives of the idea to punish Jason, who wants to marry Glauce:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; . . . for that [murder] will stab my husband to the heart.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Medea, [*Medea*](http://classics.mit.edu/Euripides/medea.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Medea is likely also referring to the her murder of Glauce, which she achieves by means of a poisoned dress (delivered by Medea's children, in Euripedes' version - a twist of irony). Again, this is meant to hurt Jason.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She of course wrestles with her qualms, but later on, she also tries to justify it by saying that if she doesn't kill her children, they will either be murdered or tortured by someone else:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Nay, by the fiends of hell's abyss, never, never will I hand my children over to their foes to mock and flout. Die they must in any case, and since 'tis so, why I, the mother who bore them, will give the fatal blow. In any case their doom is fixed and there is no escape.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Medea, [*Medea*](http://classics.mit.edu/Euripides/medea.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She repeats this thought process shortly before actually killing her sons:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; My friends, I am resolved upon the deed; at once will I slay my children and then leave this land, without delaying long enough to hand them over to some more savage hand to butcher. Needs must they die in any case; and since they must, I will slay them-I, the mother that bare them.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Medea, [*Medea*](http://classics.mit.edu/Euripides/medea.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Presumably, Medea thinks it is impossible for her to escape if she still has her children. Therefore, she wants to avoid subjecting them to more pain. She clearly still loves them; just read any of her short soliloquys on the subject. In the very end, she rejects her original motivation - to harm Jason - and attempts to commit the murder out of love.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's worth noting that Jason, too, believes the children might be harmed, because of Medea's murder of Glauce. However, his response is to protect them, not kill them - although he arrives too late:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As for her, those whom she hath wronged will do the like by her; but I am come to save the children's life, lest the victim's kin visit their wrath on me, in vengeance for the murder foul, wrought by my children's mother.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Jason, [*Medea*](http://classics.mit.edu/Euripides/medea.html)&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11840" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2943" RevisionGUID="502ad146-8c83-46c1-acd8-84bc3eb00028" CreationDate="2017-09-12T11:57:40.007" UserId="3741" Comment="added 30 characters in body" Text="Use when asking about worship." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11841" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2943" RevisionGUID="502ad146-8c83-46c1-acd8-84bc3eb00028" CreationDate="2017-09-12T11:57:40.007" Comment="Proposed by 3741 approved by 967, 2774 edit id of 478" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11842" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2933" RevisionGUID="a2509d7c-50b5-45b4-8380-cb6a7f0b4433" CreationDate="2017-09-12T15:05:41.510" UserId="42" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="Zeus, as his wife Hera was [also his sister][1]. They were carrying on family tradition, as their parents, Cronos and Rhea, were [also siblings][2], while their parents Ouranos and Gaia [varied the formula][3]: he was her son.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;I was surprised to see that as far as I can tell, none of the other major Greek deities got together with their siblings, except for [Poseidon][4], who raped his sister Demeter, and [Hephaistos][5], who tried to do the same with Athena.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Hera&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.greekmythology.com/Titans/Rhea/rhea.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Ouranos.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/DemeterFamily.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/HephaistosLoves.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11846" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2944" RevisionGUID="90ad42cd-24f2-4a4a-9c76-bae4cfa9d613" CreationDate="2017-09-12T20:18:20.640" UserId="3230" Text="The &quot;seven spirits [of God]&quot; are mentioned multiple in Revelation (KJ21):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;1:4&lt;/sup&gt; John, To the seven churches in Asia: Grace be unto you and peace from Him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits which are before His throne;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;3:1&lt;/sup&gt; “And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write: ‘These things saith He that hath the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: I know thy works, and that thou hast a name that thou livest, but thou art dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;4:5&lt;/sup&gt; And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;5:6&lt;/sup&gt; And I beheld, and lo, in the midst of the throne and the four living beings, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who or what are these seven spirits?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11847" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2944" RevisionGUID="90ad42cd-24f2-4a4a-9c76-bae4cfa9d613" CreationDate="2017-09-12T20:18:20.640" UserId="3230" Text="Who or what are the seven spirits of God in Revelation?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11848" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2944" RevisionGUID="90ad42cd-24f2-4a4a-9c76-bae4cfa9d613" CreationDate="2017-09-12T20:18:20.640" UserId="3230" Text="|christianity|revelation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11849" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2944" RevisionGUID="4f361e06-14d8-4054-bd69-cb6c9543486e" CreationDate="2017-09-12T20:28:58.063" UserId="3230" Comment="added 6 characters in body" Text="The &quot;seven spirits [of God]&quot; are mentioned multiple times in Revelation (KJ21):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;1:4&lt;/sup&gt; John, To the seven churches in Asia: Grace be unto you and peace from Him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits which are before His throne;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;3:1&lt;/sup&gt; “And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write: ‘These things saith He that hath the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: I know thy works, and that thou hast a name that thou livest, but thou art dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;4:5&lt;/sup&gt; And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;5:6&lt;/sup&gt; And I beheld, and lo, in the midst of the throne and the four living beings, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who or what are these seven spirits?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11850" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2945" RevisionGUID="1f60c4b4-de8e-49d0-887e-a9241d0dba08" CreationDate="2017-09-12T20:29:51.817" UserDisplayName="user1079" Text="&lt;p&gt;The following is the answer I wrote to a similar question on &lt;a href=&quot;https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/a/28916/2910&quot;&gt;Hermeneutics.SE&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;&#xA;&#xA;---&#xA;&#xA;---&#xA;&#xA;&lt;h2&gt;The Three Entities&lt;/h2&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;Grace to you and peace from &lt;b&gt;[1] the one who is and who was and who is to come&lt;/b&gt;, and from &lt;b&gt;[2] the seven spirits who are before his throne&lt;/b&gt;, and from &lt;b&gt;[3] Jesus Christ&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;h2&gt;The Common View&lt;/h2&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;Most Christian commentaries interpret these three as referring to the three persons of the trinity:&lt;/p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;Grace to you and peace from &lt;b&gt;[1] God the Father&lt;/b&gt;, and from &lt;b&gt;[2] God the Holy Spirit&lt;/b&gt;, and from &lt;b&gt;[3] God the Son&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;What little objection there is to this view comes in identifying 'the seven spirits' as the individual 'Holy Spirit'. The very early explanation for this is to interpret 'seven spirits' as a singular 'sevenfold Spirit'. The New Living Translation renders the text this way.&lt;/p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;As for the &lt;i&gt;reason&lt;/i&gt; John identifies the person of the Holy Spirit as 'seven spirits', interpreters bring up Isaiah 11.1-3:&lt;/p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;A shoot shall come out from the stock of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of his roots. The spirit of Yahweh shall rest on him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of Yahweh. His delight shall be in the fear of Yahweh.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;That is to say, this 'sevenfold' Holy Spirit is:&lt;/p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;ol&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;li&gt;The spirit of Yahweh&lt;/li&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;li&gt;The spirit of wisdom&lt;/li&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;li&gt;The spirit of understanding&lt;/li&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;li&gt;The spirit of counsel&lt;/li&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;li&gt;The spirit of might&lt;/li&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;li&gt;The spirit of knowledge&lt;/li&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;li&gt;The spirit of the fear of Yahweh&lt;/li&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;/ol&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;This explanation is ancient. Victorinus' Commentary on the Apocalypse cites the passage directly, though his slightly different list is based on LXX Isaiah:&lt;/p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;We read of a sevenfold spirit in Isaiah; namely, the spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, of knowledge and of piety, and the spirit of the fear of the Lord.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;This view states that the Holy Spirit is defined in a sevenfold way, that there are seven attributes the Spirit imparts to the divinely-inspired. The Isaiah verse shows this sevenfold Holy Spirit 'resting' on 'the stock of Jesse' (i.e. 'David', a messianic figure), so proponents of this view point to Revelation 3.1 and 5.6 to show how this is true of Jesus.&lt;/p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;The New Oxford Annotated Bible mentions this as a possible interpretation of the text.&lt;/p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;h2&gt;An Alternate View&lt;/h2&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;Critics of the common view believe two facts undermine its validity.&lt;/p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;First, it is objected that the Isaiah verse is merely poetic, not meant to be a literal enumeration that the holy spirit is 'sevenfold'. The passage only uses the word 'spirit' four times, with the latter three uses simply adding definition to the initial use. Second, despite interpreters taking 'seven spirits' to mean 'sevenfold Spirit', the matter is that the Greek gives 'spirit' in the plural, suggesting John does indeed have seven distinct 'spirits' in mind.&lt;/p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;An alternate explanation put forth is that the 'seven spirits before the throne' is John drawing from a pair of closely related traditions, of a specific class of angels that attend to God's throne, and of seven archangels.&lt;/p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;This is seen most immediately in Tobit 12.15:&lt;/p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who stand ready and enter before the glory of the Lord.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;This is also found in versions of 1 Enoch, where Raphael is again mentioned. For example, 1 Enoch 17.1-8 (traditionally 20.1-8):&lt;/p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;And these are the names of the holy angels who keep watch: &lt;b&gt;Uriel&lt;/b&gt;, one of the holy angels, who is in charge of the world and Tartarus. &lt;b&gt;Raphael&lt;/b&gt;, one of the holy angels, who is in charge of the spirits of men. &lt;b&gt;Reuel&lt;/b&gt;, one of the holy angels, who tends the host of the luminaries. &lt;b&gt;Michael&lt;/b&gt;, one of the holy angels, who has been put in charge of the blessings of the people. &lt;b&gt;Sariel&lt;/b&gt;, one of the holy angels, who is in charge of the spirits of the sons of men who sin against the spirit. &lt;b&gt;Gabriel&lt;/b&gt;, one of the holy angels, who is in charge of the Garden and the seraphim and the cherubim. &lt;b&gt;Remiel&lt;/b&gt;, one of the holy angels, whom God has put in charge of those who rise. The names of &lt;b&gt;the seven archangels&lt;/b&gt;.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;Jubilees 2.2 mentions 'the angels of the Presence'.&lt;/p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;In the &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_of_Joseph&quot;&gt;Prayer of Joseph&lt;/a&gt;, the man Israel identifies himself as the incarnation of 'a ruling spirit' who is 'an archangel of the power of the Lord'. In the same breath, Israel calls himself 'the first minister in the sight of God', while stating that the angel Uriel is his 'eighth'. These details suggest the author was also drawing on the tradition of seven archangels.&lt;/p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;Levi's testament in The Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs mentions that Levi's lineage was appointed to be the priesthood by 'seven men in white raiment', possibly alluding to a tradition of seven principal angels.&lt;/p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;In the birth narrative in the Gospel of Luke, the angel who announces the births of John and Jesus, says, 'I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God.' It has been argued the arrangement of Jesus' genealogy so that Jesus comes seventy generations after Enoch is evidence the evangelist borrowed from 1 Enoch 10.12. It may be that Gabriel's job description likewise comes from 1 Enoch's tradition of the seven archangels, where Gabriel is one of those listed.&lt;/p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;Clement of Alexandria, in &lt;i&gt;Stromata&lt;/i&gt;, says that 'the firstborn princes of the angels, who have the greatest power, are seven', showing that the idea of seven archangels persisted in the early centuries of Christianity.&lt;/p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;Rounding up the details, we have an ongoing tradition in the Second Temple period (and after) of a specific class of angels, sometimes called archangels, who stand in God's presence and serve before his throne. The alternate view argues the 'seven spirits' are John's rendering of the seven archangels tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;John does mention a singular 'spirit' in Revelation 1-3, ('I was in the spirit' and 'listen to what the spirit is saying to the churches'), and the spirit even speaks in Revelation 14 and 22. Whether these all refer to the same 'spirit' is another issue, but at no point does John attempt to identify the singular 'spirit' with the 'seven spirits'. And while it may be tempting to identify these 'seven spirits' with one or all of the sets of 'seven angels' that appear later in the Revelation (e.g. the seven angels of the trumpets in chapter 8, or of the bowls in chapter 15), again John makes no attempt to identify them with each other. These 'seven spirits' are an entity distinct from each the singular 'spirit' and the other sets of 'seven angels'.&lt;/p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;Hence, the identification of the three entities in Revelation 1.4 would be:&lt;/p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;Grace to you and peace from &lt;b&gt;[1] God the Father&lt;/b&gt;, and from &lt;b&gt;[2] the seven archangels&lt;/b&gt;, and from &lt;b&gt;[3] Jesus the Messiah&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;John is not blessing his readers in the name of 'the trinity', but in the authority of the royal court in heaven. Analogy may be drawn to 1 Timothy 5.21, where the author gives a charge to his reader with a similar triadic formula:&lt;/p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;In the presence of &lt;b&gt;[1] God&lt;/b&gt; and of &lt;b&gt;[2] Christ Jesus&lt;/b&gt; and of &lt;b&gt;[3] the elect angels&lt;/b&gt;, I warn you to keep these instructions without prejudice, doing nothing on the basis of partiality.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;The Jewish Annotated New Testament suggests this view is what John had in mind.&lt;/p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;h2&gt;Criticism of the alternate view&lt;/h2&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;Richard Bauckham, who opts for the common view, objects to identifying the seven spirits with the seven archangels tradition. &lt;i&gt;The Theology of the Book of Revelation&lt;/i&gt;, page 110:&lt;/p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;The seven Spirits, called in 1:4 'the seven Spirits who are before [God's] throne', have sometimes been identified, not as the divine Spirit, but as the seven principal angels who, in Jewish angelology, stand in the presence of God in heaven (e.g. Tob. 12:15). But Revelation itself refers to these seven angels (8:2) in terms quite different from the way it refers to the seven Spirits. Moreover, the term 'spirit' could certainly be used of angels (as frequently in the Dead Sea Scrolls), it rarely has this meaning in early Christian literature and never in Revelation.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;So also G.K. Beale, &lt;i&gt;The Book of Revelation&lt;/i&gt;, page 189:&lt;/p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;Although some identify these spirits with the seven archangels, mentioned in Jewish writings (e.g., &lt;i&gt;1 En.&lt;/i&gt; 20:1-8) or with the seven angels of the trumpets and bowls (Rev. 8:2; 15:1, 6-8), the expression is more likely a figurative designation of the effective working of the Holy Spirit, since this is the characteristic identification of πνεῦμα in the NT when found in conjunction with or as part of an apparent formula with God and Christ.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;h2&gt;Concluding Remarks&lt;/h2&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;In my opinion, the alternate view is the correct one.&lt;/p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;The criticism it receives, at least as represented above with Bauckham and Beale (neither of whom is normally short on words), is scant and even a tad bit circular (e.g. the word 'spirit' does not refer to angels, except for the occasions it does, which is definitely not this occasion).&lt;/p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;Finding in John's explicitly plural 'seven spirits' instead a singular 'sevenfold Spirit', I would argue, is an attempt to retroject trinitarian theology into the text where later Christians &lt;i&gt;expect&lt;/i&gt; they should find it, rather than following the foundation of Jewish traditions that John borrows from and builds on throughout his book.&lt;/p&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11851" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2749" RevisionGUID="6d0fd9b1-96ce-48d8-9ac5-af4565bb72e3" CreationDate="2017-09-12T20:39:20.293" UserId="3230" Comment="replaced christian tag with christianity" Text="|greek|christianity|celtic|the-devil|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11852" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2749" RevisionGUID="6d0fd9b1-96ce-48d8-9ac5-af4565bb72e3" CreationDate="2017-09-12T20:39:20.293" Comment="Proposed by 3230 approved by 2892 edit id of 479" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11853" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2946" RevisionGUID="9d753522-e132-4af2-be52-2eabae465992" CreationDate="2017-09-13T09:15:06.127" UserId="57" Text="I don't know how you could fit this in your performance, but the first step for a mortal to prepare for a roundtrip journey to Hades would be to initiate themselves in the [Eleusinian Mysteries][1]. We can only speculate on what this would involve, but being an initiate apparently helped Herakles to bring [Cerberus][2] up from Hades: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [4.25.1] But when Heracles had made the circuit of the Adriatic, and had journeyed around the gulf on foot, he came to Epirus, whence he made his way to Peloponnesus. And now that he had performed the tenth Labour he received a Command from Eurystheus to bring Cerberus up from Hades to the light of day. And assuming that it would be to his advantage for the accomplishment of this Labour, he went to Athens and took part in the Eleusinian Mysteries, Musaeus, the son of Orpheus, being at that time in charge of the initiatory rites.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Library of History of Diodorus Siculus. Published in Vol. II &#xD;&#xA;of the Loeb Classical Library edition, 1935&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleusinian_Mysteries&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerberus#The_Twelfth_Labour_of_Heracles" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11854" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2946" RevisionGUID="9e802966-28bc-47cc-bade-c4a6d30c34d9" CreationDate="2017-09-13T09:46:17.883" UserId="57" Comment="added 26 characters in body" Text="I don't know about specific items or how you could fit this in your performance, but the first step for a mortal to prepare for a roundtrip journey to Hades should be to initiate themselves in the [Eleusinian Mysteries][1]. We can only speculate on the details involved, but being an initiate apparently helped Herakles to bring [Cerberus][2] up from Hades: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [4.25.1] But when Heracles had made the circuit of the Adriatic, and had journeyed around the gulf on foot, he came to Epirus, whence he made his way to Peloponnesus. And now that he had performed the tenth Labour he received a Command from Eurystheus to bring Cerberus up from Hades to the light of day. And assuming that it would be to his advantage for the accomplishment of this Labour, he went to Athens and took part in the Eleusinian Mysteries, Musaeus, the son of Orpheus, being at that time in charge of the initiatory rites.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Library of History of Diodorus Siculus. Published in Vol. II &#xD;&#xA;of the Loeb Classical Library edition, 1935&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleusinian_Mysteries&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerberus#The_Twelfth_Labour_of_Heracles" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11855" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2947" RevisionGUID="fc80b2cd-2ad8-48d3-b20a-ed5f2ac80939" CreationDate="2017-09-13T13:43:29.830" UserId="3230" Text="In the opening chapters of the [Apocalypse of Abraham][1] that discuss Abraham's conversion from idolatry, the pagan gods Merumath, Nakhin, Barisat, Zouchaios and Ioav are named. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What do we know about these gods? Can they be traced to actual pagan traditions?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypse_of_Abraham" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11856" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2947" RevisionGUID="fc80b2cd-2ad8-48d3-b20a-ed5f2ac80939" CreationDate="2017-09-13T13:43:29.830" UserId="3230" Text="What do we know about the pagan gods in the Apocalypse of Abraham?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11857" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2947" RevisionGUID="fc80b2cd-2ad8-48d3-b20a-ed5f2ac80939" CreationDate="2017-09-13T13:43:29.830" UserId="3230" Text="|apocalypse-of-abraham|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11858" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="2921" RevisionGUID="ec5e2783-9fb2-4cec-b56f-678d9d83cb9c" CreationDate="2017-09-13T19:43:41.153" UserDisplayName="user62" Comment="51" />
  <row Id="11859" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2948" RevisionGUID="3f4c9f14-c4a7-4a2a-b196-a009505f8d10" CreationDate="2017-09-13T23:03:31.207" UserId="292" Text="It may relate to some feature in Finnish cosmology, but one possible answer is may come by way of the Scandinavian god Thor. Horgalles' name is sometimes explained as a form of Thor karl, Old Man Thor, and he may have borrowed his nail from Thor's cult as well.&#xD;&#xA;There are two references to god-nails, [reginnaglar][1], in Scandinavian literature, one of which might explain Horgalles' nail:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thereafter Thorolf fared with fire through his land out from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Staff-river in the west, and east to that river which is now called&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thors-river, and settled his shipmates there. But he set up for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; himself a great house at Templewick which he called Templestead. There&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he let build a temple, and a mighty house it was. There was a door in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the side-wall and nearer to one end thereof. Within the door stood the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; pillars of the high-seat, and nails were therein; they were called the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gods' nails. ([*Eyrbyggja saga*][2])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the [pillars][3] was carved with an image of Thor, by the way, just to tie it up. Some scholars, such H.R.E. Davidson, connect the god-nails with they myth of how Thor got a [whetstone embedded][4] in his forehead while fighting a giant. (Gods and Myths of the Ancient Northmen: 78) She also suggests that the nails were used to strike sparks for fire in the temples. She quotes a late saga, *Kjalnesinga saga*, as saying that Thor's temple had a fire that was never allowed to go out. (Follow [this link][5] to learn more about needfires and how to start them.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reginnaglar&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://sagadb.org/eyrbyggja_saga.en&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96ndvegiss%C3%BAlur&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://norse-mythology.org/tales/thors-duel-with-hrungnir/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://odin.heathenthing.org/?page_id=97" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11860" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2949" RevisionGUID="2092b992-a097-4168-bf35-47f7a7ce24b2" CreationDate="2017-09-14T07:12:42.890" UserId="3230" Text="In the [Apocalypse of Abraham][1], Abraham receives a divine command to offer sacrifice&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;IX.&lt;/sup&gt; Then a voice came to me speaking twice: “Abraham, Abraham!” And I said: “Here am I!” And He said: “Behold, it is I; fear not, for I am before the worlds, and a mighty God who hath created the light of the world. I am a shield over thee, and I am thy helper. Go, take me a young heifer of three years old, and a she-goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove and a pigeon, and bring me a pure sacrifice. And in this sacrifice I will lay before thee the ages (to come), and make known to thee what is reserved, and thou shalt see great things which thou hast not seen (hitherto); because thou hast loved to search me out, and I have named thee my Friend. But abstain from every form of food that proceedeth out of the fire, and from the drinking of wine, and from anointing (thyself) with oil, forty days,” and then set forth for me the sacrifice which I have commanded thee, in the place which I will shew thee, on a high mountain,  and there I will shew thee the ages which have been created and established, made and renewed, by my Word, and I will make known to thee what shall come to pass in them on those who have done evil and (practised) righteousness in the generation of men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the reason for the specificity of the command? Why these animals, and why do their ages matter? Why fast for forty days?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; THE APOCALYPSE OF ABRAHAM EDITED, WITH A TRANSLATION FROM THE SLAVONIC TEXT AND NOTES BY G. H. BOX, M.A&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypse_of_Abraham" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11861" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2949" RevisionGUID="2092b992-a097-4168-bf35-47f7a7ce24b2" CreationDate="2017-09-14T07:12:42.890" UserId="3230" Text="Is there a reason for the specificity of Abraham's sacrifice?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11862" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2949" RevisionGUID="2092b992-a097-4168-bf35-47f7a7ce24b2" CreationDate="2017-09-14T07:12:42.890" UserId="3230" Text="|apocalypse-of-abraham|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11863" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2949" RevisionGUID="8b4a4ee5-3b74-431c-b5bf-7990cc4f4ce2" CreationDate="2017-09-14T08:14:28.237" UserId="57" Comment="NO NEED FOR SHOUTING." Text="In the [Apocalypse of Abraham][1], Abraham receives a divine command to offer sacrifice&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;IX.&lt;/sup&gt; Then a voice came to me speaking twice: “Abraham, Abraham!” And I said: “Here am I!” And He said: “Behold, it is I; fear not, for I am before the worlds, and a mighty God who hath created the light of the world. I am a shield over thee, and I am thy helper. Go, take me a young heifer of three years old, and a she-goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove and a pigeon, and bring me a pure sacrifice. And in this sacrifice I will lay before thee the ages (to come), and make known to thee what is reserved, and thou shalt see great things which thou hast not seen (hitherto); because thou hast loved to search me out, and I have named thee my Friend. But abstain from every form of food that proceedeth out of the fire, and from the drinking of wine, and from anointing (thyself) with oil, forty days,” and then set forth for me the sacrifice which I have commanded thee, in the place which I will shew thee, on a high mountain,  and there I will shew thee the ages which have been created and established, made and renewed, by my Word, and I will make known to thee what shall come to pass in them on those who have done evil and (practised) righteousness in the generation of men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the reason for the specificity of the command? Why these animals, and why do their ages matter? Why fast for forty days?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; The Apocalypse of Abraham. Edited, With a Translation From the Slavonic Text and Notes by George Herbert Box.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypse_of_Abraham" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11864" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2949" RevisionGUID="3623b71f-6e9c-4a19-9f0f-27542bb5d610" CreationDate="2017-09-14T11:52:15.680" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|apocalypse-of-abraham|jewish|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11865" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2947" RevisionGUID="a3af6ca6-4ccc-42d8-b2bb-06a4fd24ce82" CreationDate="2017-09-14T11:52:30.307" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|apocalypse-of-abraham|jewish|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11877" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2567" RevisionGUID="c119a6c9-674f-4807-b31b-d4f0e6b20ed2" CreationDate="2017-09-14T17:49:58.717" UserId="4105" Comment="removed commentary" Text="An excerpt from [TV tropes][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; People are fairly familiar with the story of how Set murdered Osiris&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to get his throne only to be thwarted by Osiris' son Horus, but most&#xD;&#xA;&gt; people don't know how it was done. Set attempted to prove his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; worthiness before the other gods by anally raping Horus, but Horus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reached between his legs and caught Set's semen, throwing it into the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Nile. Horus proceeded to masturbate into a salad, which Set ate&#xD;&#xA;&gt; without knowing about the special sauce. When it came time for Set to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; prove his dominance over Horus, the gods commanded Set's semen to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; speak. When the voice came from the Nile, the gods then commanded&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Horus' semen to speak, and imagine Set's state of mind when his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stomach started talking to him. That is how Horus avenged his father&#xD;&#xA;&gt; upon Set. The Egyptians were totally perverted. One version says that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they had intercrural (thigh) sex and Set (or Seth) wanted Horus to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; catch the semen. He did and Horus' mom saw the mess, cut off her son's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hands and threw them into the river. She then put her son's semen into&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Set's salad and the rest you know.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I never really understood this. It clearly feels like, that seminal fluid has some sort of a meaning/purpose behind it, that is there in many myths, what I never could grasp is the following:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Knowing that myth was shaped by the humans, thus it reflected some of their idea sets (Hubris, etc...), so:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**What was their &quot;scientific&quot; understanding on matters regarding umm... human reproduction process and it's parts, that could have influenced their myths?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Bowdlerise/MythAndLegend" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11878" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2567" RevisionGUID="c119a6c9-674f-4807-b31b-d4f0e6b20ed2" CreationDate="2017-09-14T17:49:58.717" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 57 edit id of 480" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11879" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2951" RevisionGUID="d71ac6d1-f584-4b92-9e94-81c492be46e1" CreationDate="2017-09-14T19:19:54.380" UserId="2892" Text="This answer will only address the choices from the standpoint of precedent.  *(There are likely mystical reasons for the precise numbers, but that would be the subject of an answer all it's own, and constitutes a bit of a rabbit hole.)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- 40 days (and sometimes nights) [recurs in many significant passages in the Old and New Testament](https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Forty-Days).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The age of the sacrificial victims seems to be a reference to the book of Genesis: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And He said unto him: 'Take Me a heifer of three years old, and a she-goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtle-dove, and a young pigeon.' &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Genesis 15:9][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Apocalypse of Abraham is [apocrypha][2], with origin unknown, but clearly it is using pre-existing elements in the accepted forms of the Bibles.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0115.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocrypha" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11880" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2951" RevisionGUID="c8cf2876-517c-4a61-a272-00ab7d02d119" CreationDate="2017-09-14T19:30:23.050" UserId="2892" Comment="added 171 characters in body" Text="This answer will only address the choices from the standpoint of precedent.  *(There are likely mystical reasons for the precise numbers, but that would be the subject of an answer all it's own, and constitutes a bit of a rabbit hole.)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- 40 days (and sometimes nights) [recurs in many significant passages in the Old and New Testament](https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Forty-Days).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The age of the sacrificial victims seems to be a reference to the book of Genesis: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And He said unto him: 'Take Me a heifer of three years old, and a she-goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtle-dove, and a young pigeon.' &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Genesis 15:9][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Apocalypse of Abraham is [apocrypha][2], with origin unknown, but clearly it is using pre-existing elements in the accepted forms of the Bibles. The intent may be to establish legitimacy of this text, or simply because it it quite old, or because it was written by a scholar of the Torah and these are the norms.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;NOTE: &quot;40 days and 40 nights&quot; is generally taken as a euphemism for &quot;a reasonably long time&quot;, sufficient for purification.  By contrast, 3-year old victims likely has a very specific, ritual meaning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0115.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocrypha" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11881" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2951" RevisionGUID="d3ee70f4-86cd-4170-b450-d76d3c036858" CreationDate="2017-09-14T19:35:47.090" UserId="2892" Comment="added 5 characters in body" Text="This answer will only address the choices from the standpoint of precedent.  *(There are likely mystical reasons for the precise numbers, but that would be the subject of an answer all it's own, and constitutes a bit of a rabbit hole.)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- 40 days (and sometimes nights) [recurs in many significant passages in the Old and New Testament](https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Forty-Days).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The age of the sacrificial victims seems to be a reference to the book of Genesis: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And He said unto him: 'Take Me a heifer of three years old, and a she-goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtle-dove, and a young pigeon.' &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Genesis 15:9][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Apocalypse of Abraham is [apocrypha][2], with origin unknown, but clearly it is using pre-existing elements in the accepted forms of the Bibles. The intent may be to establish legitimacy of this text, or simply because it it quite old, or because it was written by a scholar of the Torah and these are the norms.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;NOTE: &quot;40 days and 40 nights&quot; is generally taken as a euphemism for &quot;a reasonably long time&quot;, sufficient for purification.  By contrast, 3-year old victims likely has a very specific, ritual significance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0115.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocrypha" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11882" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2901" RevisionGUID="fcdecb41-baf5-46a8-be45-b916b554f50c" CreationDate="2017-09-14T23:05:19.897" UserId="57" Comment="added 5 characters in body" Text="In some tellings of Typhon's revolt, the gods take animal forms and flee to Egypt in panic. The version in the Metamorphoses of Antoninus Liberalis explicitly mentions the animals each god transformed into: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [28] He felt an urge to usurp the rule of Zeus and not one of the gods could withstand him as he attacked. In panic they fled to Aigyptos (Egypt), all except Athena and Zeus, who alone were left. Typhon hunted after them, on their track. When they fled they had changed themselves in anticipation into animal forms.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollon became a hawk [i.e. the Egyptian god Horus], Hermes an ibis [the Egyptian god Thoth], Ares became a fish, the lepidotus [Egyptian Lepidotus or Onuris], Artemis a cat [Neith or Bastet], Dionysos took the shape of a goat [Osiris or Arsaphes], Herakles a fawn, Hephaistos (Hephaestus) an ox [Ptah], and Leto a shrew mouse [Wadjet]. The rest of the gods each took on what transformations they could. When Zeus struck Typhon with a thunderbolt, Typhon, aflame hid himself and quenched the blaze in the sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: ANTONINUS LIBERALIS. Metamorphoses. Translation by Celoria, F. London: Routledge.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is an etiological myth, the Greeks used this story to explain the origin of the therianthropic deities of Egypt. In the quote, the translator helpfully indicates the Egyptian deity each animal corresponds to. Except for the fawn, the animal Heracles transformed to. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The one Egyptian deity I could find that is associated with deer is [Satis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satis_(goddess)). However, a hunting and fertility goddess doesn't seem a likely equivalent of Heracles. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why does Heracles transform to a fawn? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11883" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2901" RevisionGUID="0ac87958-eff5-4d7b-8564-befdc781f5af" CreationDate="2017-09-15T07:48:41.637" UserId="57" Comment="added 1108 characters in body" Text="In some tellings of Typhon's revolt, the gods take animal forms and flee to Egypt in panic. The version in the Metamorphoses of [Antoninus Liberalis][1] references [Nicander of Colophon][2] and explicitly mentions the animals each god transformed into: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [28. Typhon] He felt an urge to usurp the rule of Zeus and not one of the gods could withstand him as he attacked. In panic they fled to Aigyptos (Egypt), all except Athena and Zeus, who alone were left. Typhon hunted after them, on their track. When they fled they had changed themselves in anticipation into animal forms. Apollon became a hawk [i.e. the Egyptian god Horus], Hermes an ibis [the Egyptian god Thoth], Ares became a fish, the lepidotus [Egyptian Lepidotus or Onuris], Artemis a cat [Neith or Bastet], Dionysos took the shape of a goat [Osiris or Arsaphes], Herakles a fawn, Hephaistos (Hephaestus) an ox [Ptah], and Leto a shrew mouse [Wadjet]. The rest of the gods each took on what transformations they could. When Zeus struck Typhon with a thunderbolt, Typhon, aflame hid himself and quenched the blaze in the sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: ANTONINUS LIBERALIS. Metamorphoses. Translation by Celoria, F. London: Routledge.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is an etiological myth, the Greeks used this story to explain the origin of the therianthropic deities of Egypt. In the quote, the translator helpfully indicates the Egyptian deity each animal corresponds to. Except for the fawn, the animal Heracles transformed to. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The one Egyptian deity I could find that is associated with deer is [Satis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satis_(goddess)). However, a hunting and fertility goddess doesn't seem a likely equivalent of Heracles. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why does Heracles transform to a fawn? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The original quote is: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [28. Τυφών] οὗτος ἐπεθύμισε τοῦ Διὸς ἔχειν τὴν ἀρχὴν καὶ αὐτὸν ἐπερχόμενον οὐδεὶς ὑπέμενε τῶν θεῶν, ἀλλὰ δείσαντες ἔφυγον πάντες εἰς τὴν Αἴγυπτον, Ἀθηνᾶ δὲ καὶ Ζεὺς ὑπελείφθησαν μόνοι. Τυφὼν δ΄ ἐκ ποδὸς ἐδίωκεν. οἱ δὲ προμηθείᾳ διέφυγον ἀλλάξαντες εἰς ζῷα τὰς ὄψεις· καὶ Ἀπόλλων μὲν ἐγένετο ἱέραξ, Ἑρμῆς δὲ ἶβις, Ἄρης δὲ λεπιδωτὸς ἰχθύς, Ἄρτεμις δὲ αἴλουρος, τράγῳ δὲ εἰκάζεται Διόνυσος, ἕλλῳ δ΄ Ἡρακλῆς, βοῒ δ' Ἥφαιστος, μυγαλῇ δὲ Λητώ, καὶ ὡς ἕκαστος ἔτυχε τῶν ἄλλων θεῶν μετέβαλε τὴν ὄψιν. ἔπει&lt;τα&gt; δὲ Τυφῶνα Ζεὺς βάλλει κεραυνῷ· καιόμενος δὲ ὁ Τυφὼν ἔκρυψεν ἑαυτὸν καὶ ἠφάνισε τὴν φλόγα τῇ θαλάσσῃ.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Μεταμορφώσεων συναγωγή. (2017, Απρίλιος 21). Βικιθήκη. Ανακτήθηκε&#xD;&#xA;07:38, Σεπτέμβριος 15, 2017 από https://el.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=%CE%9C%CE%B5%CF%84%CE%B1%CE%BC%CE%BF%CF%81%CF%86%CF%8E%CF%83%CE%B5%CF%89%CE%BD_%CF%83%CF%85%CE%BD%CE%B1%CE%B3%CF%89%CE%B3%CE%AE&amp;oldid=94661.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoninus_Liberalis&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicander" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11884" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2952" RevisionGUID="85bf0ecd-cd99-4676-b655-7087bc31ade4" CreationDate="2017-09-15T10:42:13.493" UserId="3230" Text="In Chapter XXIX of the Apocalypse of Abraham, a &quot;man&quot; appears &lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And I [looked and] saw a man going out from the left side of the heathen; and there went out men and women and children, from the side of the heathen, many hosts, and worshipped him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And while I still looked there came out from the right side (many), and some insulted that man, while some struck him; others, however, worshipped him. [And] I saw how these worshipped him, and Azazel ran and worshipped him, and having kissed his face he turned and stood behind him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And I said: “O Eternal, Mighty One! Who is the man insulted and beaten, who is worshipped by the heathen with Azazel?”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And He answered and said: “Hear, Abraham! The man whom thou sawest insulted and beaten and again worshipped—that is the relief&#xD;&#xA; (granted) by the heathen to the people who proceed from thee,&#xD;&#xA;in the last days, in this twelfth hour of the Age of ungodliness. But in the twelfth year of my final Age I will set up this man from thy generation, whom thou sawest (issue) from my people; this one all&#xD;&#xA;will follow, and such as are called by me (will) join, (even) those who change in their counsels.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia suggests &lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; it might be a reference to Jesus, but doesn't make a very strong case about it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to Jacob Licht (Professor of Biblical Studies, Tel-Aviv University), this work is a Jewish text, although not one that represents mainstream rabbinic Jewish thought. Licht writes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; The most obvious and perhaps the correct explanation of this passage is to declare it a late Christian interpolation, yet &quot;the man&quot; does not fit the medieval Christian concept of Jesus. His function is not clearly messianic. This problematic passage therefore may have originated in some Judeo-Christian sect, which saw Jesus as precursor of the Messiah, or it may be Jewish, badly rewritten by an early Christian editor. Perhaps it reflects a Jewish view of Jesus as an apostle to the heathen, an explanation which would make it unique, and indeed startling. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; The Apocalypse of Abraham. Edited, With a Translation From the Slavonic Text and Notes by George Herbert Box.&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; Wikipedia contributors, &quot;Apocalypse of Abraham,&quot; Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Apocalypse_of_Abraham&amp;oldid=782000316 (accessed September 15, 2017). &lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypse_of_Abraham&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11885" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2952" RevisionGUID="85bf0ecd-cd99-4676-b655-7087bc31ade4" CreationDate="2017-09-15T10:42:13.493" UserId="3230" Text="Who is the man in the Apocalypse of Abraham?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11886" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2952" RevisionGUID="85bf0ecd-cd99-4676-b655-7087bc31ade4" CreationDate="2017-09-15T10:42:13.493" UserId="3230" Text="|apocalypse-of-abraham|jewish|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11891" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="1055" RevisionGUID="20814d36-6141-4bdb-9d0f-35e0ed6b3606" CreationDate="2017-09-15T15:49:00.200" UserId="4141" Comment="53" />
  <row Id="11892" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2953" RevisionGUID="1ef2a004-fa97-40e8-a6d9-645ee64b288b" CreationDate="2017-09-15T21:10:13.997" UserId="666" Text="The numbers likely have no special significance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The quoted passages all share one feature: they use parallelism, specifically one in which a number is named in one line, and then in the next line the next higher number is used instead. This is an interesting feature of the text which occurs many times. One can also find similar features in old Semitic literature. I started looking for examples for this when I by chance came across [this paper][1], which discusses this very feature of *Kalevala*, as well as its possible relation to Semitic literature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In short, the author argues that this type of parallelism is used for three different purposes in the *Kalevala*: the first is to intensify what is said, the second is alliterative effect, the third is straight enumeration (as this sentence is an example of). The third is obviously not relevant here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second and third example seem to be pretty straightforward intensification.&#xD;&#xA;However, the first example does not follow the pattern exactly, since it has seven and then nine as the important numbers (the translation given agrees with my Swedish translation, so there was likely no change in that process). This makes me suspect that it is likely due to the structure being use for alliterative effect. I searched for the line [here][2] (I don't speak Finnish, so I did this by identifying the quotation marks and the appellation to Ukko in the following stanzas, and then put the relevant stanza through translation software to check), and found the following:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; vuotta seitsemän satoa, yheksän yrön ikeä;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, we do indeed have an alliteration in the line.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To conclude: the numbers used does not seem to have exact or even symbolic meaning. They are poetic examples of long times, on a form that is chosen more to fit the verse than for any other qualities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1363&amp;context=dlls&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://fi.wikisource.org/wiki/Kalevala_-_Ensimm%C3%A4inen_runo" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11898" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2954" RevisionGUID="19bc7810-4235-495c-81a8-630af4e8bbdd" CreationDate="2017-09-16T17:21:04.540" UserId="3230" Text="When the fourth seal is opened, Death and Hell will kill &quot;a fourth part of the earth&quot; (KJ21): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;6:8&lt;/sup&gt; And I looked, and behold, a pale horse, and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over a fourth part of the earth to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What are these &quot;beasts of the earth&quot;? Is this a reference to the Antichrist, demons, literal animals, or something else?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11899" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2954" RevisionGUID="19bc7810-4235-495c-81a8-630af4e8bbdd" CreationDate="2017-09-16T17:21:04.540" UserId="3230" Text="What are the &quot;beasts of the earth&quot; in the fourth seal of Revelation?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11900" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2954" RevisionGUID="19bc7810-4235-495c-81a8-630af4e8bbdd" CreationDate="2017-09-16T17:21:04.540" UserId="3230" Text="|christianity|revelation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11901" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="2749" RevisionGUID="f2f5bbbe-e9e1-4757-9176-f3f485ee63a8" CreationDate="2017-09-16T17:22:51.473" UserId="3230" Comment="54" />
  <row Id="11905" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2955" RevisionGUID="dcef7e68-0a8f-4371-8088-6703393300df" CreationDate="2017-09-16T17:55:44.723" UserDisplayName="user1079" Text="Box published his translation of the Apocalypse of Abraham in 1918, along with commentary. (PDF of his translation and commentary are &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.asce.marquette.edu/maqom/box.pdf&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.) Box suggests the book as a whole was written after AD 70 but no later than 'the early decades of the second century'.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Despite Box writing in the early twentieth century, before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls or the Nag Hammadi texts, his conclusion is still accepted today. In his book *The Apocalyptic Imagination*, John J. Collins likewise states that three apocalyptic texts — one of them being the Apocalypse of Abraham — were written when the memory of AD 70 was still raw.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Along with Box, Collins states that the passage is 'definitely interpolated', calling it a 'strange insertion'. Collins writes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The passage must be taken as a reference to Christ, although the suggestion that he is worshiped by Azazel is unorthodox and reflects a sectarian, Bogomil viewpoint.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While Box agrees that 'The man is clearly intended to be Jesus', he suspects the reference to the man coming from 'the left side of the heathen' is some kind of copyist error. Box:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [The man's] emerging “from the left side of the heathen” is curious. If the text is in order it must apparently refer to the emergence into prominence of the Early Christian Church in the Gentile world. It clearly cannot refer to racial origin [of Jesus], for it is stated further on in the chapter that “the man” sprang from Abraham’s “generation” and God’s people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Apocalypse of Abraham, the directions 'right' and 'left' appear to represent the Jews and the gentiles, respectively. For example, chapter 22 has:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;These which are on the left side are the multitude of the peoples which have formerly been in existence and which are after thee destined, some for judgement and restoration, and others for vengeance and destruction at the end of the world. But these which are on the right side of the picture—they are the people set apart for me of the peoples with Azazel.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Box offers an emendation that would result in chapter 29 reading:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And I [looked and] saw a man going out from the right side&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This would result in the text saying Jesus came from the Jews (the right side), was 'worshiped' by gentiles (the left side), and was 'insulted' and 'struck' by 'some' Jews (the right side), while other Jews joined the gentiles in worship of him. When Abraham asks who 'the man' is, the text further states that in the end 'all' people will follow the man.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The text continues a bit past the section quoted in the original question; this extra bit provides some clarification as to the interpolation's eschatology:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this one all will follow, and such as are called by me (will) join, (even) those who change in their counsels. And those whom thou sawest emerge from the left side of the picture—the meaning is: There shall be many from the heathen who set their hopes upon him; and as for those whom thou sawest from thy seed on the right side, some insulting and striking, others worshipping him—many of them shall be offended at him. He, however, is testing those who have worshipped him of thy seed, in that twelfth hour of the End, with a view to shortening the Age of ungodliness.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As Box notes, this seems to be typically 'Pauline' soteriology, especially fitting that of Romans 11. There, Paul writes that the gentile world accepts Jesus as savior far quicker than his fellow Jews do, but that in the end all Jews and all gentiles will be saved together.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Collins mentions in a footnote that R.G. Hall (&quot;The 'Christian Interpolation' in the Apocalypse of Abraham&quot;, &lt;i&gt;JBL&lt;/i&gt; 107/1) 'takes the man as a Roman emperor and the passage as thoroughly Jewish'." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11906" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2956" RevisionGUID="fd140d54-4ea3-4fe3-bc61-02d561d68762" CreationDate="2017-09-16T19:18:40.260" UserDisplayName="user1079" Text="G.H. Box, in his 1918 translation and commentary on the book, translates the gods names as Merumath, Barisat, Nahon, Zucheus, and Joavon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notably, each of the idols is identified by the material it is made from, following the pattern established in the first chapter of the book (i.e. 'my father Terah to his gods of wood and stone, gold and silver, brass and iron', cf. Deuteronomy 4.28; Isaiah 60.17; Daniel 5.4).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Merumath is 'hewn out of stone'&#xD;&#xA;* Barisat 'is made of wood'&#xD;&#xA;* Nahon is 'the iron god'&#xD;&#xA;* Zucheus is 'made of gold'&#xD;&#xA;* Joavon is 'forged of silver'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Box comments in his introduction that Merumath and Barisat are 'sarcastic names' derived from Hebrew and Aramaic:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Merumath = *ʾeben Měrūmā*, 'stone of deceit' (Hebrew)&#xD;&#xA;* Barisat = *bar ʾishtā*, 'son of the fire' (Aramic)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The names ridicule the idols: 'Merumath' because he is made of stone, but is no god worthy of worship, and 'Barisat' because he was built from wood which was burnt in the fire. If there is a meaning behind the names Nahon, Zucheus, and Joavon, we would expect it to follow this pattern, though I haven't found any scholars who offer suggestions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, another theory proposed in more recent decades, is that the names are ciphers for the five prevailing empires that ruled over the Jewish people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rubinkiewicz, 'Apocalypse of Abraham', &lt;i&gt;The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha&lt;/i&gt;, p 682:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Slavonic text of the Apocalypse of Abraham contains several Hebrew names, words, and phrases. The most impressive examples are the following: Ioavan is a Slavonic deformation of the Hebrew &lt;i&gt;ywn&lt;/i&gt; (Greece); Souzouch is probably a transcription of the name &lt;i&gt;kwrwŝ&lt;/i&gt; (Cyrus); and Maroumat is an abbreviation of the Hebrew &lt;i&gt;Martā Rômā&lt;/i&gt;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If this is the case, the choice of the materials may be influenced by Daniel 2.31-45 and 5.4. The former in particular identifies a series of kingdoms, which was commonly interpreted in the Second Temple period as referring to Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11907" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2957" RevisionGUID="b6daf198-9684-489b-ab70-99390dd4f9c7" CreationDate="2017-09-16T20:22:31.693" UserDisplayName="user1079" Text="&lt;blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;b&gt;Revelation 6.1-8&lt;/b&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;Then I saw the Lamb open one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures call out, as with a voice of thunder, ‘Come!’ I looked, and there was &lt;b&gt;a white horse&lt;/b&gt;! Its rider had a bow; a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering and to conquer.&lt;/p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;When he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature call out, ‘Come!’ And out came &lt;b&gt;another horse, bright red&lt;/b&gt;; its rider was permitted to take peace from the earth, so that people would slaughter one another; and he was given a great &lt;b&gt;sword&lt;/b&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;When he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature call out, ‘Come!’ I looked, and there was &lt;b&gt;a black horse&lt;/b&gt;! Its rider held a pair of scales in his hand, and I heard what seemed to be a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, ‘A quart of wheat for a day’s pay, and three quarts of barley for a day’s pay, but do not damage the olive oil and the wine!’&lt;/p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature call out, ‘Come!’ I looked and there was &lt;b&gt;a pale green horse&lt;/b&gt;! Its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed with him; they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with &lt;b&gt;sword&lt;/b&gt;, &lt;b&gt;famine&lt;/b&gt;, and &lt;b&gt;pestilence&lt;/b&gt;, and by the &lt;b&gt;wild animals&lt;/b&gt; of the earth.&lt;/p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The passage was influenced by a handful of texts from the Hebrew bible. The most overt source here is the Book of Zechariah, each passage depicting a set of four horses, each a different color.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;b&gt;Zechariah 1.8&lt;/b&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;In the night I saw a man riding on a red horse! He was standing among the myrtle trees in the glen; and behind him were red, sorrel, and white horses.&lt;/p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;b&gt;Zechariah 6.1-3&lt;/b&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;And again I looked up and saw four chariots coming out from between two mountains—mountains of bronze. The first chariot had red horses, the second chariot black horses, the third chariot white horses, and the fourth chariot dappled grey horses.&lt;/p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The context of either passage in Zechariah is judgment against Babylon, in retribution for the exile of the Jews from their homeland for 'seventy years'. The revelator has borrowed the symbolism, horses representing judgment, for his own visions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the other hand, the Revelation is structured to follow the broad outline of the Book of Ezekiel. Ezekiel 1-3 and Revelation 4-5 each have the prophet view a scene of God on his throne, surrounded by the cherubim. In either scene, God's outstretched hand wields a scroll with writing on its front/outside and back/inside.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ezekiel states that his scroll contains 'words of lamentation and mourning and woe'. When Ezekiel receives this scroll, he elaborates on its contents over the next several chapters; it is judgment against Judah and Jerusalem because the people have broken their covenant with God. This judgment includes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;b&gt;Ezekiel 5.12,17&lt;/b&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;One-third of you shall die of pestilence or be consumed by famine among you; one-third shall fall by the sword around you; and one-third I will scatter to every wind and will unsheathe the sword after them. [...] I will send famine and wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children; pestilence and bloodshed shall pass through you; and I will bring the sword upon you. I, Yahweh, have spoken.&lt;/p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;b&gt;Ezekiel 6.8,11-12&lt;/b&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;But I will spare some. Some of you shall escape the sword among the nations and be scattered through the countries. [...] Alas for all the vile abominations of the house of Israel! For they shall fall by the sword, by famine, and by pestilence. Those far off shall die of pestilence; those nearby shall fall by the sword; and any who are left and are spared shall die of famine.&lt;/p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sword, famine, pestilence, and wild animals. These are the same things which the four horsemen in the Revelation symbolize. However, this set of disasters is not unique to Ezekiel and the Revelation; they can be found in a swath of prophetic texts under a variety of contexts. For example:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;b&gt;Isaiah 1.19-20&lt;/b&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land; but if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured by the sword; for the mouth of Yahweh has spoken.&lt;/p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;b&gt;Jeremiah 15.2-3&lt;/b&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;Thus says Yahweh: Those destined for pestilence, to pestilence, and those destined for the sword, to the sword; those destined for famine, to famine, and those destined for captivity, to captivity. And I will appoint over them four kinds of destroyers, says Yahweh: the sword to kill, the dogs to drag away, and the birds of the air and the wild animals of the earth to devour and destroy.&lt;/p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;b&gt;Matthew 24.6-8&lt;/b&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not alarmed; for this must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places: all this is but the beginning of the birth pangs.&lt;/p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ultimate source for this pattern may be Leviticus (depending on how early its sources may be). Leviticus 26 describes the penalties for Israel breaking its covenant with God:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;b&gt;Leviticus 26.21-26,33&lt;/b&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;If you continue hostile to me, and will not obey me, [...] I will let loose wild animals against you [...] I will bring the sword against you [...] I will send pestilence among you [...] When I break your staff of bread, ten women shall bake your bread in a single oven, and they shall dole out your bread by weight; and though you eat, you shall not be satisfied. [...] And you I will scatter among the nations, and I will unsheathe the sword against you; your land shall be a desolation, and your cities a waste.&lt;/p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Revelation 6 was drawing from a set of typical disasters associated with divine judgment throughout the ancient Israelite tradition. Despite presenting these things through symbolism adapted from the Book of Zechariah, the described disasters are pretty straightforward: the revelator anticipates some nation or kingdom will suffer deaths from war, plague, drought, and wild animal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The 'wild animals' are exactly that: dangerous, feral animals attacking and killing people." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11908" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2958" RevisionGUID="bb13952a-73d5-4460-8671-b1e71a702bf1" CreationDate="2017-09-17T01:04:22.070" UserId="57" Text="*Dionysus Shipwrecked* is a lost comedy, written either by Aristophanes or by Archippus. Regardless of authorship, the title suggests the play revolved around a story of Dionysus being shipwrecked. Has that story survived in any other form? Do we know anything about it? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The one story I know of Dionysus at sea, the one he's abducted by Tyrrhenian pirates, doesn't fit as there's no shipwreck involved.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11909" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2958" RevisionGUID="bb13952a-73d5-4460-8671-b1e71a702bf1" CreationDate="2017-09-17T01:04:22.070" UserId="57" Text="What is the story of Dionysus' shipwreck?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11910" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2958" RevisionGUID="bb13952a-73d5-4460-8671-b1e71a702bf1" CreationDate="2017-09-17T01:04:22.070" UserId="57" Text="|greek|dionysus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11911" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2959" RevisionGUID="3a76d0f3-3678-4418-9f06-44f139781084" CreationDate="2017-09-17T13:19:41.267" UserId="197" Text="The beginning of the Odyssey, the Olympian gods all want to allow Odysseus to return from his long exile, only Poseidōn is against that.  So Zeus, as king of the gods,  overrules Poseidōn on Athēnē's request.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Poseidōn hates Odysseus because he blinded the kyklōps Polyphēmos.  Odysseus did this when Polyphēmos captured him and his crewmates, killed and ate some of them, and locked the rest in his cave with the intention to eat them later. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What did the Olympian gods other than Poseidōn think of Poseidōn's attitude?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Did they believe Poseidōn was right to avenge Odysseus by putting him to all the hardships he had to suffer, only at that point the vengeance was going on for too long and against Odysseus's eventual fate, so Poseidōn would have to stop now?  &#xD;&#xA;2. Or did they instead think that Odysseus can't be blamed at all for what he did, because he had to save his crewmates from an attack that wasn't their fault, only at this point it would be useless to argue with the stubborn Poseidōn and the best thing that could be done is to let Odysseus home and let the matter drop?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(I am not trying to restrict the question to the Odyssey, you can consider other accounts of this story too if they matter.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11912" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2959" RevisionGUID="3a76d0f3-3678-4418-9f06-44f139781084" CreationDate="2017-09-17T13:19:41.267" UserId="197" Text="Did the gods think Odysseus's vengeance was just excessive, or entirely unfair?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11913" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2959" RevisionGUID="3a76d0f3-3678-4418-9f06-44f139781084" CreationDate="2017-09-17T13:19:41.267" UserId="197" Text="|greek|odyssey|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11914" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2959" RevisionGUID="3fba5cd3-9cd9-4e85-8b38-7779998837b4" CreationDate="2017-09-17T15:30:21.893" UserId="197" Comment="edited title" Text="Did the gods think Poseidōn's vengeance on Odysseus was just excessive, or entirely unfair?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11915" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2960" RevisionGUID="621688ca-d9f3-4db6-83d0-b96334333ab6" CreationDate="2017-09-17T16:27:58.543" UserId="3989" Text="Beware a tendency to cast Homeric gods in the role of moral arbiters or enforcers of what is and is not righteous in the conduct of mortals. Plato might wish Homer to go there (and Solon and Hesiod do), but Homer does not generally oblige. Not even Zeus *Xenios,* Zeus of the Guests, seems systematically to punish the many crimes against hospitality that pepper the *Odyssey,* not even through human agents&amp;mdash;what harm befalls the Laestrygonians, for example? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Lines 1.16&amp;ndash;18][1] appear to be crucial: οἱ θεοί (the gods) are said to have *spun* ([ἐπεκλώσαντο, lemma ἐπικλώθω][2]) the year of Odysseus’ return to Ithaca; and that choice of verb, with Clotho’s very name built into it, suggests that the gods here referred to are the Fates (as LSJ puts it, &amp;ldquo;prop. of the Fates who spun the thread of destiny&amp;rdquo;). [*Iliad* 16.439&amp;ndash;49][3] suggests that Zeus and other Olympians may have the power to overrule what the Fates have spun, but that such overruling is felt among the Olympians to be the opposite of praiseworthy (expressed litotically: ἀτὰρ οὔ τοι πάντες ἐπαινέομεν θεοὶ ἄλλοι).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This scruple may be a matter of mere divine decorum, or it may be essential to avoiding some kind of cosmic anarchy or destruction; but it is *not* a matter (or judgment) of ordinary human morality. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0135%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D1&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29peklw%2Fsanto&amp;la=greek&amp;can=e%29peklw%2Fsanto0&amp;prior=oi(&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0135:book=1:card=1&amp;i=1#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D16%3Acard%3D439" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11916" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2960" RevisionGUID="806cfbdc-739f-408c-819c-9aa571329694" CreationDate="2017-09-17T16:37:36.690" UserId="3989" Comment="added 33 characters in body" Text="Beware a tendency to cast Homeric gods in the role of arbiters or enforcers of human morality (or Cyclopian morality, if there were such a thing). Plato might wish Homer to go there (and Solon and Hesiod do), but Homer does not generally oblige. Not even Zeus *Xenios,* Zeus of the Guests, seems consistently to punish the many crimes against hospitality that pepper the *Odyssey*&amp;mdash;not even if we count punishment inflicted by human agents. What harm befalls the Laestrygonians, for example? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Lines 1.16&amp;ndash;18][1] appear to be crucial: οἱ θεοί (the gods) are said to have *spun* ([ἐπεκλώσαντο, lemma ἐπικλώθω][2]) the year of Odysseus’ return to Ithaca; and that choice of verb, with Clotho’s very name built into it, suggests that the gods here referred to are the Fates (as LSJ puts it, &amp;ldquo;prop. of the Fates who spun the thread of destiny&amp;rdquo;). [*Iliad* 16.439&amp;ndash;49][3] suggests that Zeus and other Olympians may have the power to overrule what the Fates have spun, but that such overruling is felt among the Olympians to be the opposite of praiseworthy (expressed litotically: ἀτὰρ οὔ τοι πάντες ἐπαινέομεν θεοὶ ἄλλοι).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This scruple may be a matter of mere divine decorum, or it may be essential to avoiding some kind of cosmic anarchy or destruction; but it is *not* a matter (or judgment) of ordinary human morality.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0135%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D1&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29peklw%2Fsanto&amp;la=greek&amp;can=e%29peklw%2Fsanto0&amp;prior=oi(&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0135:book=1:card=1&amp;i=1#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D16%3Acard%3D439" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11917" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2961" RevisionGUID="1e159f30-7a5d-4f52-b3b6-c76b38d8f908" CreationDate="2017-09-17T16:55:05.383" UserId="3302" Text="Why is the left hand path in regards to the Baphomet associated with femminism?  I would like to add the left hand path is often associated with the denial of God and things that can be can considered taboo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In regards to Christianity and others religions it does appear men are often associated with being pastors more.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would like to add at least today men are less likely to attend Church not the other way around.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To quote Wikipedia&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; widespread taboos and deprecation that associate the left hand as dark, female, inferior and 'not right'" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11918" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2961" RevisionGUID="1e159f30-7a5d-4f52-b3b6-c76b38d8f908" CreationDate="2017-09-17T16:55:05.383" UserId="3302" Text="Why is the left hand path in regards to the Baphomet associated with femminism?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11919" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2961" RevisionGUID="1e159f30-7a5d-4f52-b3b6-c76b38d8f908" CreationDate="2017-09-17T16:55:05.383" UserId="3302" Text="|symbolism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11920" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2961" RevisionGUID="d70a4b5a-1e8c-4305-b58e-747adcd970fe" CreationDate="2017-09-17T22:11:44.870" UserId="3302" Comment="added 6 characters in body; edited title" Text="Why is the left hand path in regards to the Baphomet associated with the female side?  I would like to add the left hand path is often associated with the denial of God and things that can be can considered taboo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In regards to Christianity and others religions it does appear men are often associated with being pastors more.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would like to add at least today men are less likely to attend Church not the other way around.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To quote Wikipedia&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; widespread taboos and deprecation that associate the left hand as dark, female, inferior and 'not right'" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11921" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2961" RevisionGUID="d70a4b5a-1e8c-4305-b58e-747adcd970fe" CreationDate="2017-09-17T22:11:44.870" UserId="3302" Comment="added 6 characters in body; edited title" Text="Why is the left hand path in regards to the Baphomet associated with the female side?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11922" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2962" RevisionGUID="0599d1e4-8baf-4418-b772-4c850f0583a1" CreationDate="2017-09-17T22:49:09.020" UserId="292" Text="I haven't been able to find any summaries of the plot, from which I deduce that it is lost to us. As for the title, [Emmanuela Bakola][1] suggests that in *Dionysus Shipwrecked*, like in the *Frogs*, Aristophanes (or Archippus) is playing off the close connections between Dionysus and the sea to suggest that the god is, in reality, &quot;ignorant of the sea&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.ca/books?id=hs4UDAAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA262&amp;lpg=PA262&amp;dq=Aristophanes%20Dionysus%20Shipwrecked&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=T6QdVB-tlv&amp;sig=LT9dj2ZF4McChc4cPdQ9jpcEXIo&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjBnveflK3WAhUGRiYKHd72CEYQ6AEINTAC#v=onepage&amp;q=Aristophanes%20Dionysus%20Shipwrecked&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11923" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2961" RevisionGUID="ddf1fb71-2ace-40e4-ac48-745b92c3592e" CreationDate="2017-09-18T07:21:56.250" UserId="57" Comment="please always include a link when quoting online sources." Text="Why is the left-hand path in regards to Baphomet associated with the female side? I would like to add the left-hand path is often associated with the denial of God and things that can be considered taboo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In regards to Christianity and other religions, it does appear men are often associated with being pastors more.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would like to add at least today men are less likely to attend church, not the other way around.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To quote [Wikipedia][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Robert Beér's Encyclopedia of Tibetan Symbols and Motifs clarifies widespread taboos and deprecation that associate the left hand as dark, female, inferior and 'not right'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-hand_path_and_right-hand_path" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11924" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2961" RevisionGUID="ddf1fb71-2ace-40e4-ac48-745b92c3592e" CreationDate="2017-09-18T07:21:56.250" UserId="57" Comment="please always include a link when quoting online sources." Text="|symbolism|occultism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11925" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2961" RevisionGUID="ddf1fb71-2ace-40e4-ac48-745b92c3592e" CreationDate="2017-09-18T07:21:56.250" UserId="57" Comment="please always include a link when quoting online sources." Text="Why is the left-hand path in regards to Baphomet associated with the female side?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11926" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2963" RevisionGUID="099d2522-ba7d-4509-9a63-9980ce76f7d9" CreationDate="2017-09-18T13:34:24.060" UserId="4168" Text="It looks less weird if one assumes an astral myth behind referring to Auriga, the charioteer. Part of Auriga are the Haedi, the two goat kids.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11930" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2964" RevisionGUID="85a6e328-1b7e-42f8-a84f-0e2a2c9e14b9" CreationDate="2017-09-18T17:31:32.700" UserId="4171" Text="**Background:** A very common motif in mythology and folklore is for worlds to be layered one on top of each other. The most obvious example is of the three world system of hell, earth, and heaven. The former and later are sometimes also given many distinct sublayers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm interested in the idea of a vertical multi-layered cosmos as a theme (and I mean as opposed and mostly to the exclusion of to other structures like wheels, trees, parallel dimensions, dualistic worlds, etc.). *While layers often imply hierarchy, I'd also be especially keen on cases where the layers aren't straightforward hells/underworlds or heavens, that is places of punishment and reward, but are just worlds, whether better or worse.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Questions:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**1)** Are there particular mythologies that really emphasize this theme, such as by including many distinct layers, describing vertical travel from one layer to another, etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**2)** If so, do these mythologies tend to have other traits in common? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**3)** Finally, are there any good academic mythology, folkore, etc. books on this theme? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks for your time. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11931" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2964" RevisionGUID="85a6e328-1b7e-42f8-a84f-0e2a2c9e14b9" CreationDate="2017-09-18T17:31:32.700" UserId="4171" Text="How common are many-layered cosmos in mythology? Which mythologies emphasize this in particular?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11932" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2964" RevisionGUID="85a6e328-1b7e-42f8-a84f-0e2a2c9e14b9" CreationDate="2017-09-18T17:31:32.700" UserId="4171" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11933" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2964" RevisionGUID="102f7b7f-0722-4f70-b044-793537adb3d7" CreationDate="2017-09-18T17:38:12.487" UserId="4171" Comment="edited title" Text="How common is vertical many-layered cosmos in world mythology? Do any mythologies particularly emphasize this structure?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11934" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2964" RevisionGUID="fc3b2bce-2542-4789-88e3-4b176d7d0795" CreationDate="2017-09-18T17:41:08.583" UserId="57" Comment="Removing the third question, because a) this is already a bit broad and b) recommendations don't really fit the Q&amp;A model. Nevertheless, this is a very interesting question, welcome to the site! " Text="**Background:** A very common motif in mythology and folklore is for worlds to be layered one on top of each other. The most obvious example is of the three world system of hell, earth, and heaven. The former and later are sometimes also given many distinct sublayers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm interested in the idea of a vertical multi-layered cosmos as a theme (and I mean as opposed and mostly to the exclusion of to other structures like wheels, trees, parallel dimensions, dualistic worlds, etc.). *While layers often imply hierarchy, I'd also be especially keen on cases where the layers aren't straightforward hells/underworlds or heavens, that is places of punishment and reward, but are just worlds, whether better or worse.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Questions:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**1)** Are there particular mythologies that really emphasize this theme, such as by including many distinct layers, describing vertical travel from one layer to another, etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**2)** If so, do these mythologies tend to have other traits in common? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks for your time. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11935" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2964" RevisionGUID="fc3b2bce-2542-4789-88e3-4b176d7d0795" CreationDate="2017-09-18T17:41:08.583" UserId="57" Comment="Removing the third question, because a) this is already a bit broad and b) recommendations don't really fit the Q&amp;A model. Nevertheless, this is a very interesting question, welcome to the site! " Text="How common is vertical many-layered cosmos in world mythology? Do any mythologies particularly emphasize this structure?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11936" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2964" RevisionGUID="9e540d6a-728e-401e-97f2-498ae091fd1a" CreationDate="2017-09-18T17:46:30.600" UserId="4171" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body" Text="**Background:** A very common motif in mythology and folklore is for worlds to be layered one on top of each other. The most obvious example is of the three world system of hell, earth, and heaven. The former and later are sometimes also given many distinct sublayers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm interested in the idea of a vertical multi-layered cosmos as a theme (and I mean as opposed and mostly to the exclusion of other structures like wheels, trees, parallel dimensions, dualistic worlds, etc.). *While layers often imply hierarchy, I'd also be especially keen on cases where the layers aren't straightforward hells/underworlds or heavens, that is places of punishment and reward, but are just worlds, whether better or worse.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Questions:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**1)** Are there particular mythologies that really emphasize this theme, such as by including many distinct layers, describing vertical travel from one layer to another, etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**2)** If so, do these mythologies tend to have other traits in common? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks for your time. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11937" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2960" RevisionGUID="2e86f065-7d76-41df-b2b6-d16082d361cf" CreationDate="2017-09-18T18:07:52.443" UserId="3989" Comment="added 40 characters in body" Text="Beware a tendency to cast Homeric gods in the role of arbiters or enforcers of human morality (or Cyclopian morality, if there were such a thing). Plato might wish Homer to go there (and Solon and Hesiod do), but Homer does not generally oblige. Not even Zeus *Xenios,* Zeus of the Guests, seems consistently to punish the many crimes against hospitality that pepper the *Odyssey*&amp;mdash;not even if we count punishment inflicted by human agents. What harm befalls the Laestrygonians, for example? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Lines 1.16&amp;ndash;18][1] appear to be crucial: οἱ θεοί (the gods) are said to have *spun* ([ἐπεκλώσαντο, lemma ἐπικλώθω][2]) the year of Odysseus’ return to Ithaca; and that choice of verb, with Clotho’s very name built into it, suggests that the gods here referred to are the Fates (as LSJ puts it, &amp;ldquo;prop. of the Fates who spun the thread of destiny&amp;rdquo;). [*Iliad* 16.439&amp;ndash;49][3] suggests that Zeus and other Olympians may have the power to overrule what the Fates have spun, but that such overruling is felt among the Olympians to be the opposite of praiseworthy (expressed litotically: ἀτὰρ οὔ τοι πάντες ἐπαινέομεν θεοὶ ἄλλοι, but all we other gods shall not praise).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This scruple may be a matter of mere divine decorum, or it may be essential to avoiding some kind of cosmic anarchy or destruction; but it is *not* a matter (or judgment) of ordinary human morality.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0135%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D1&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29peklw%2Fsanto&amp;la=greek&amp;can=e%29peklw%2Fsanto0&amp;prior=oi(&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0135:book=1:card=1&amp;i=1#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D16%3Acard%3D439" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11938" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="697" RevisionGUID="b01453d6-7052-4d0d-9c72-c8d8ab9e2bef" CreationDate="2017-09-18T18:35:13.243" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|atlantis|plato|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11939" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1612" RevisionGUID="d86284d3-4cf7-4238-8820-eb732d17e94c" CreationDate="2017-09-18T18:35:24.453" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|egyptian|atlantis|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11940" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2491" RevisionGUID="20ec45b7-16ae-44a4-9b09-113da15de513" CreationDate="2017-09-18T18:35:45.117" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|norse|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11941" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2496" RevisionGUID="709dda02-a00c-4cde-8981-5f0b14450eaf" CreationDate="2017-09-18T18:35:59.387" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|plato|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11942" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2965" RevisionGUID="1495aa4b-f251-4c7c-8aac-422ad512fbd7" CreationDate="2017-09-18T18:36:38.570" UserId="57" Text="In Book 5 of *Laws*, Plato is singling out Hestia, Zeus and Athena while describing his ideal city: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The next thing to be noted is, that the city should be placed as nearly as possible in the centre of the country; we should choose a place which possesses what is suitable for a city, and this may easily be imagined and described. Then we will divide the city into twelve portions, first founding temples to Hestia, to Zeus and to Athene, in a spot which we will call the Acropolis, and surround with a circular wall, making the division of the entire city and country radiate from this point. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source *Laws*, by Plato. Translated by Benjamin Jowett.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why this particular triplet? And why does Hestia come first?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11943" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2965" RevisionGUID="1495aa4b-f251-4c7c-8aac-422ad512fbd7" CreationDate="2017-09-18T18:36:38.570" UserId="57" Text="Why is Plato singling out Hestia, Zeus and Athena in Laws?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11944" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2965" RevisionGUID="1495aa4b-f251-4c7c-8aac-422ad512fbd7" CreationDate="2017-09-18T18:36:38.570" UserId="57" Text="|greek|olympians|plato|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11945" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2964" RevisionGUID="e9472b70-ec64-4c25-8272-5773eec6fcbd" CreationDate="2017-09-18T18:37:02.697" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11946" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2964" RevisionGUID="18bd2e7c-483e-4b96-98aa-03ac4d834e58" CreationDate="2017-09-18T18:53:30.843" UserId="4171" Comment="edited title" Text="How common is a vertical many-layered cosmos in world mythology? Do any mythologies particularly emphasize this structure?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11947" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2965" RevisionGUID="40f393a5-a106-45dd-8d95-3000b70445ce" CreationDate="2017-09-18T19:09:34.187" UserId="57" Comment="edited body" Text="In Book 5 of *Laws*, Plato is singling out Hestia, Zeus and Athena while describing the ideal city: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The next thing to be noted is, that the city should be placed as nearly as possible in the centre of the country; we should choose a place which possesses what is suitable for a city, and this may easily be imagined and described. Then we will divide the city into twelve portions, first founding temples to Hestia, to Zeus and to Athene, in a spot which we will call the Acropolis, and surround with a circular wall, making the division of the entire city and country radiate from this point. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source *Laws*, by Plato. Translated by Benjamin Jowett.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why this particular triplet? And why does Hestia come first?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11948" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2963" RevisionGUID="2424c246-4de6-4b09-bcb9-90394ac41927" CreationDate="2017-09-18T21:06:44.363" UserId="2892" Comment="Added a link to the Auriga wiki" Text="It looks less weird in the context of [a version of the Auriga mythology involving goats][1].  Part of Auriga are the Haedi, the two goat kids.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auriga_(constellation)#History_and_mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11949" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2966" RevisionGUID="8e155a1d-07c3-46ea-ae8e-98beb3467149" CreationDate="2017-09-18T23:03:40.253" UserId="292" Text="Both Zeus and Athena were deities who were associated with Athens, and important philisophic concepts, while a city needed Hestia's flame at its sacred centre to be complete.&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;Hestia, [goddess of the hearth][1], was more important than you would think from the small part she plays in myths. Every home had a hearth shrine to Hestia, and each city had a public &quot;hearth&quot; in the form of her temple. When colonists left to found new cities they took fire from their native city's shrine to Hestia with them, to kindle their own fire when they settled. She received the first offering at a sacrifice.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;Zeus was king of the gods, and although we don't tend to think of him that way, he was also the [god of law][2], destiny and fate while Athena was the goddess of wisdom, also likely to appeal to a philosopher. She was also the goddess of [Plato's city][3], Athens.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://greekgodsandgoddesses.net/goddesses/hestia/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Zeus.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.history.com/topics/ancient-history/plato" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11950" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2240" RevisionGUID="b8f4cd82-f81d-4297-b687-4ae3ac54b596" CreationDate="2017-09-19T05:43:09.113" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|amazons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11951" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2967" RevisionGUID="9db2c1e4-2480-482e-9b80-bcd3ef27b42f" CreationDate="2017-09-19T05:53:33.660" UserId="57" Text="In the 2017 film *Wonder Woman*, and I assume the comics featuring the eponymous character, the Amazons are associated with Zeus and Ares is their adversary. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is bizarre. The Amazons are a warlike tribe, skilled in all things war. If anything I would assume the god of war would very strongly favour them. And this, apparently, is the case (all quotes via [theoi.com][1]): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [King Phineus tells the Argonauts of the obstacles they will face on their voyage across the Black Sea :] ‘When you have left these behind [the Mossynoekoi tribe on the southern shore of the Black Sea], you must beach your ship on a low-lying island, though not before you find some means of driving off the innumerable Birds that haunt the lonely shore and pay no deference to man. Her the Queens of the Amazones, Otrere and Antiope [or Hippolyte], built a marble shrine for Ares when they were going to war.’  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Apollonius Rhodius, Argonautica 2. 382 ff (trans. Rieu)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Amazones of the Doiantian plain were by no means gentle, well-conducted folk; they were brutal and aggressive, and their main concern in life was war. War, indeed, was in their blood, daughters of Ares as they were and of the Nymphe Harmonia, who lay with the god in the depths of the Akmonion Wood and bore him girls who fell in love with fighting.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Apollonius Rhodius, Argonautica 2. 989 ff (trans. Rieu) &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Peerless amid all the Amazones unto Troy-town Penthesileia came... the tireless War-god's child, the mailed maid, like to the Blessed Gods.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Quintus Smyrnaeus, Fall of Troy 1. 61 ff (trans. Way)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As a symbol of her pre-eminence among them [the Amazones], Hippolyte was possessor of the belt of Ares.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 2. 98 (trans. Aldrich)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a story that places the Amazons against Ares? Or one that allies them with Zeus? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/AresFavour.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11952" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2967" RevisionGUID="9db2c1e4-2480-482e-9b80-bcd3ef27b42f" CreationDate="2017-09-19T05:53:33.660" UserId="57" Text="Is there a story that places the Amazons against Ares?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11953" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2967" RevisionGUID="9db2c1e4-2480-482e-9b80-bcd3ef27b42f" CreationDate="2017-09-19T05:53:33.660" UserId="57" Text="|greek|amazons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11956" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2497" RevisionGUID="7bec2989-8737-4b1d-88aa-a2d9ba48f86d" CreationDate="2017-09-19T09:25:19.730" UserId="3230" Comment="fixed spelling" Text="Thrace was a country situated in the actual north part of the Greece, a huge part of Bulgaria and the European part of the Turkey:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;Source: Wikipedia&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What we know of Thrace is relatively simple: Thracians were not writing. Herodotus says that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 5-3 &amp; sub: the Thracians are the largest nation in all the world at least after the Indians... The only gods they worship are Ares, Dionysos and Artemis. Their king however, unlike the rest of the citizens, worship Hermes separately and more frequently than the other gods&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice Herodotus uses the Greek names of the gods, which does not help to find what could be the votive original gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The War of the Peloponnese&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In 431BC Athens entered in war against Sparta (the one of 300). Athens looked for a lot of allies, some of them will be precisely those Thracians the two main reason being first they needed allies, and second Thrace was well know for its wealthy silver mines. Here is Thucydides description:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sitalkes, (...), was now sought as an ally by the Athenians, who desired his aid in the reduction of the Thracian cities and of Perdiccas [king of Macedonia]. Coming to Athens, Nymphrodorus concluded the alliance with Sitalces, made his son Sadocus an Athenian citizen, and promised to finish the war in Thrace by persuading Sitalces to send the Athenians a force of Thracian horse and peltats.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All of that is important to notice than roughly in 450 when Herodotus wrote he called Bendis Artemis, the relationship with Thrace and Athens beginning toward 430. Plato writing around 380 this time mentioned Bendis, if that makes sense.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a side note, later in the war Thucydides is sent by the Athenians to protect a Thracian silver mine against the Spartan general Brasidas and he is beaten, which will lead to his exile. Without the short sight of those Athenians, Thucydides would probably never have written his war of the Peloponnese!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Bendis in Thrace &amp; Athens&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We know little of Bendis in Thrace, Wikipedia is by the way illustrating that by showing pictures of Greek representations, here is another one, totally a Greek style:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I want anyone to see that Wikipedia is totally failing to mention they are referring not to the Thracian Bendis but to the Greek Artemis-Bendis. None of their illustrations are Thracians, none of their citations Thracians, neither they mention that...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is Richard Farnell notes of her:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Thracian Bendis was probably in origin and character the same as the great mother of Phrygia, and was worshiped (...) with the same orgiastic rites(...) we also hear of Bendis as the great goddess of Lemnos to whom human victims were offered... The reasons for this association of the Greek maidenly goddess with the Bendis-Hekate-Brimo the patroness of savage magic and terrifying superstition, may have been some external resemblance of attributes, but also probably, some consanguinity of character. Like Artemis, the Thracian divinity was supposed to ride on bulls; like Artemis, she was a mighty huntress, though her weapon was not the bow, but the spear in each hand.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So basically we see that Bendis was included in the Athenian pantheon of god roughly for political reasons namely the alliance with the Thracians. As a goddess of hunt, dark ritual magic and bulls, Bendis was linked naturally to Hecate-Artemis (note the theme of the moon). Notice that what Plato is talking about, the fact the Athenians was riding with torch in their hands is purely an Artemis ritual.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/YwCgx.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/EdKWB.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11957" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2497" RevisionGUID="7bec2989-8737-4b1d-88aa-a2d9ba48f86d" CreationDate="2017-09-19T09:25:19.730" Comment="Proposed by 3230 approved by 2774 edit id of 481" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11960" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2969" RevisionGUID="6b64483e-1cd6-4a42-b7db-53f1742c68e0" CreationDate="2017-09-19T10:23:30.567" UserId="3230" Text="When the seventh seal is opened, there is half an hour of silence in Heaven (KJ21): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;8:1&lt;/sup&gt; And when He had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in Heaven about the space of half an hour. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why? And, is there some significance to the &quot;space of half an hour&quot;? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11961" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2969" RevisionGUID="6b64483e-1cd6-4a42-b7db-53f1742c68e0" CreationDate="2017-09-19T10:23:30.567" UserId="3230" Text="Why is there silence in Heaven after the seventh seal is opened?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11962" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2969" RevisionGUID="6b64483e-1cd6-4a42-b7db-53f1742c68e0" CreationDate="2017-09-19T10:23:30.567" UserId="3230" Text="|christianity|revelation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11964" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="2904" RevisionGUID="6e80fb0e-2657-4853-8bf4-684374c5739b" CreationDate="2017-09-19T12:26:03.090" UserId="-1" Comment="52" />
  <row Id="11966" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2961" RevisionGUID="e6ad5cee-6783-475e-98a0-0640ab1db14c" CreationDate="2017-09-19T13:47:02.320" UserId="3302" Comment="added 22 characters in body" Text="Why is the left-hand path in regards to Baphomet(the Baphomet of Levi) associated with the female side? I would like to add the left-hand path is often associated with the denial of God and things that can be considered taboo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In regards to Christianity and other religions, it does appear men are often associated with being pastors more.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would like to add at least today men are less likely to attend church, not the other way around.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To quote [Wikipedia][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Robert Beér's Encyclopedia of Tibetan Symbols and Motifs clarifies widespread taboos and deprecation that associate the left hand as dark, female, inferior and 'not right'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-hand_path_and_right-hand_path" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11967" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2971" RevisionGUID="93d2dc59-be0d-4eb1-b6f4-d7faf81237d0" CreationDate="2017-09-19T19:01:08.377" UserId="3741" Text="As I'm sure all of you know, the old testament is the Hebrew bible. Why then do Christians not follow the same rules as the Jews. When Christianity was attracting attention, Paul said that Jews who converted had to follow the Jewish law, but gentiles did not. If the halacha (Jewish Law) is still technically in the Christian Bible, then why are things like keeping Kosher not done by Christians. Also, if a Jew were to convert today, do they use Paul's idea, or stop following Jewish law (obviously it's up to the person, but is there any evidence to suggest that that's how it should be done)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11968" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2971" RevisionGUID="93d2dc59-be0d-4eb1-b6f4-d7faf81237d0" CreationDate="2017-09-19T19:01:08.377" UserId="3741" Text="Why did the Christians, who had taken a huge part of their Bible from the Jews, not have to follow the same rules as the Jews?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11969" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2971" RevisionGUID="93d2dc59-be0d-4eb1-b6f4-d7faf81237d0" CreationDate="2017-09-19T19:01:08.377" UserId="3741" Text="|comparative|christianity|judaism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11970" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2972" RevisionGUID="28d8ffa1-0707-4ed1-91bb-50a598375abe" CreationDate="2017-09-19T19:33:19.870" UserId="3341" Text="&#xD;&#xA;After reading the full tale on Sacred-Texts, it made me think of the Norse myth where Loki stole the hair of Sif and then asked the underground smiths to make her exquisite replacement hair (along with making extra gifts for the gods).  Sif's hair caused wheat to grow, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, my guess is that the &quot;lid&quot; is a scalp/head of hair.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My interest is in Biblical Mythology. Have wondered in the past whether Loki stole the hair to give to humans for some reason. Maybe Paul in 1Cor. 11 is trying to tell us something...more. :)  .  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11974" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="2971" RevisionGUID="84c01475-49fb-4a99-9de6-4c17b2b6fd33" CreationDate="2017-09-20T07:09:48.917" UserId="57" Comment="102" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:1241,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ken Graham&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:2682,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Adinkra&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;yannis&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="11982" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2976" RevisionGUID="a96801ed-b5db-41be-82e7-b8ed0fa3fab3" CreationDate="2017-09-20T17:49:53.760" UserId="4142" Text="The Stoics had a doctrine about 'ekpyrosis' - a recurrent world conflagration. It was well in antiquity, Chrysippus being credited for its original exposition. Details are given in David E. Hahm. *The Origins of Stoic Cosmology*, Ohio State University Press, 1977. or AA Long, *Stoics on world conflagration*, Southern journal of philosophy 23 (1985): 13-37 (and a rejoinder in a later issue 28.1 (1990): 149-58).&#xD;&#xA;Actually the ekpyrosis was modelled as the beginning of a 'cosmic summer' in the Great Year: after very long interval all planets gather at the start of Cancer (the next important gathering is at the start of Capricorn and flood occurs).&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11983" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2977" RevisionGUID="39c44d9c-f107-4bf3-8a3c-184860e87d92" CreationDate="2017-09-20T18:35:53.287" UserId="3474" Text="Yes and no. Greek gods have been able to be chopped up and spread out, however, since they are immortal they are able to reform leaving them to be &quot;alive&quot;. The &quot;problem&quot; is that it takes them a long time to reform leaving millennia, eons, etc. to ever be seen again until that amount of time. Sometimes beings are powerful enough to not have to reform, but the price is not having a physical body. Take a look at Kronos(Chronos or Chronus, idk) and Ouranos(Uranus). Kronos had cut up Ouranos and Ouranos no longer has a physical body.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sometimes Greek gods fade, this means that people forgot about this one certain god and they cease to exist as no one offers them anything or gives prayers." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11984" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1884" RevisionGUID="ec92f6f0-74f5-4da3-8e87-6b0d6a8cf411" CreationDate="2017-09-20T18:39:52.030" UserId="3474" Comment="Greek word for Hercules is Herakles, wasn't sure which belief you are talking about." Text="So Herakles found Theseus in the Underworld after he went and finished his last labor of bringing Cerberus back.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What resulted of Theseus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11985" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1884" RevisionGUID="ec92f6f0-74f5-4da3-8e87-6b0d6a8cf411" CreationDate="2017-09-20T18:39:52.030" UserId="3474" Comment="Greek word for Hercules is Herakles, wasn't sure which belief you are talking about." Text="What happened to Theseus after Herakles found him?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11986" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1884" RevisionGUID="ec92f6f0-74f5-4da3-8e87-6b0d6a8cf411" CreationDate="2017-09-20T18:39:52.030" Comment="Proposed by 3474 approved by 967 edit id of 482" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11987" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2978" RevisionGUID="6b372c38-2bb0-44f3-b991-79c6f1b56a81" CreationDate="2017-09-20T21:42:51.627" UserId="3230" Text="From [bleh's answer](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2654/3230) in *https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/2640/3230*, I learned that Pan is dead &lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He returned no answer to the first calls; but at the third he replied, Here ! here! I am the man. Then the voice said aloud to him, When you are arrived at Palodes, take care to make it known that the great God Pan is dead. Epitherses told us, this voice did much astonish all that heard it, and caused much arguing whether this voice was to be obeyed or slighted.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How did Pan die? Whose voice announces his death?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; Plutarch. Plutarch's Morals (section 17). Translated from the Greek by several hands. Corrected and revised by. William W. Goodwin, PH. D. Boston. Little, Brown, and Company. Cambridge. Press Of John Wilson and son. 1874.&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11988" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2978" RevisionGUID="6b372c38-2bb0-44f3-b991-79c6f1b56a81" CreationDate="2017-09-20T21:42:51.627" UserId="3230" Text="How did Pan die?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11989" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2978" RevisionGUID="6b372c38-2bb0-44f3-b991-79c6f1b56a81" CreationDate="2017-09-20T21:42:51.627" UserId="3230" Text="|greek|pan|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11990" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="244" RevisionGUID="8b7ef13a-83c2-4a86-acbf-f684e3e3b34a" CreationDate="2017-09-20T22:27:29.077" UserId="3230" Comment="added tags" Text="|comparative|ugaritic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11991" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="244" RevisionGUID="8b7ef13a-83c2-4a86-acbf-f684e3e3b34a" CreationDate="2017-09-20T22:27:29.077" Comment="Proposed by 3230 approved by 51 edit id of 485" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11992" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2654" RevisionGUID="3de34d5e-51c1-4612-931f-34a35feb81b3" CreationDate="2017-09-20T22:52:59.613" UserId="3230" Comment="expanded citation" Text="Yes, they can die. Only example for this is Pan: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then the voice said aloud to him, When you are arrived at Palodes, take care to make it known that the great God Pan is ***dead.***  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Plutarch. Plutarch's Morals. Translated from the Greek by several hands. Corrected and revised by. William W. Goodwin, PH. D. Boston. Little, Brown, and Company. Cambridge. Press Of John Wilson and son. 1874.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for how he died... no idea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;Related question: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/1649/3230&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0252%3Asection%3D17&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11993" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2654" RevisionGUID="3de34d5e-51c1-4612-931f-34a35feb81b3" CreationDate="2017-09-20T22:52:59.613" Comment="Proposed by 3230 approved by 292, 57 edit id of 483" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="11995" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="2964" RevisionGUID="99a930c5-d2f0-4aa5-9895-dfc8bb56df20" CreationDate="2017-09-21T05:37:11.883" UserId="4171" Comment="55" />
  <row Id="12000" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2979" RevisionGUID="c0452cf5-e818-44a8-b63f-de3aac1adfa6" CreationDate="2017-09-21T08:45:51.790" UserId="111" Text="This is only a partial answer concerning Arctic mythologies:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [Bogoraz 1907](http://digitallibrary.amnh.org/dspace/bitstream/2246/5745/5/M11Pt02.pdf), the Chukchee's cosmogonical beliefs include the idea of a multilayered world, the North Star being the passage between them (see this previous [question/answer](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/430/111) of mine): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; COSMOGONICAL BELIEFS.- According to the cosmogonical beliefs of the Chukchee, there are several worlds situated one above another, in such a manner that the ground of one forms the sky of the one below. The number of these worlds is stated as five, seven, or nine. These worlds are arranged symmetrically above and below the earth, each of the lower worlds having a corresponding one above it.  &#xD;&#xA;According to a statement in the tale of &quot;The Scabby Shaman&quot; which gives many curious details of the subject, there are four large worlds besides the earth. Those nearest to the earth are occupied by ke'let; the next, by men. In the upper and lower worlds there are the same number of animals on the land, birds in the air, and fish in the sea, so that the amount of life is the same above and below the earth.  &#xD;&#xA;According to other statements, the lowest world is occupied by those who have died twice, and therefore cannot return to earth. Some of these worlds have several suns, the number of which varies from two to eight.&#xD;&#xA;When it is winter in our world, it is summer in the next, and vice versa. &#xD;&#xA;[...]   &#xD;&#xA;These worlds are not very far apart. In the tale of &quot;The Shaman with Warts&quot;, a shaman, while struggling with his rival, is hurled through two worlds, piercing the heaven of one head foremost, and that of the next feet foremost; then he lands in the third world on the moving ground of the clouds.  &#xD;&#xA;[...]  &#xD;&#xA;All these worlds, as said before, are joined by holes situated under the Polar Star. Shamans and spirits while going from one world to another slip through these holes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarly [Jochelson 1904](https://ia801907.us.archive.org/33/items/jstor-659272/659272.pdf) reported that the Koryaks believed that the&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; universe consists of a series of five worlds, one above the other, the middle one being our earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only mention of the other worlds however is that the Supreme Being lives with his family in the Upper World.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So it seems at the very least that the conception of a multilayered world was common to the indigenous Arctic populations of the Eurasian continent. However I can not find any reference (apart from an Underworld where the deads end up) of this concept in north American Arctic populations." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12001" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2979" RevisionGUID="ec95e392-81f2-4909-89a6-3de096bd1151" CreationDate="2017-09-21T08:54:37.950" UserId="111" Comment="added 93 characters in body" Text="This is only a partial answer concerning Arctic mythologies:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [Bogoraz 1907](http://digitallibrary.amnh.org/dspace/bitstream/2246/5745/5/M11Pt02.pdf), the Chukchee's cosmogonical beliefs include the idea of a multilayered world, the North Star being the passage between them (see this previous [question/answer](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/430/111) of mine): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; COSMOGONICAL BELIEFS.- According to the cosmogonical beliefs of the Chukchee, there are several worlds situated one above another, in such a manner that the ground of one forms the sky of the one below. The number of these worlds is stated as five, seven, or nine. These worlds are arranged symmetrically above and below the earth, each of the lower worlds having a corresponding one above it.  &#xD;&#xA;According to a statement in the tale of &quot;The Scabby Shaman&quot; which gives many curious details of the subject, there are four large worlds besides the earth. Those nearest to the earth are occupied by ke'let; the next, by men. In the upper and lower worlds there are the same number of animals on the land, birds in the air, and fish in the sea, so that the amount of life is the same above and below the earth.  &#xD;&#xA;According to other statements, the lowest world is occupied by those who have died twice, and therefore cannot return to earth. Some of these worlds have several suns, the number of which varies from two to eight.&#xD;&#xA;When it is winter in our world, it is summer in the next, and vice versa. &#xD;&#xA;[...]   &#xD;&#xA;These worlds are not very far apart. In the tale of &quot;The Shaman with Warts&quot;, a shaman, while struggling with his rival, is hurled through two worlds, piercing the heaven of one head foremost, and that of the next feet foremost; then he lands in the third world on the moving ground of the clouds.  &#xD;&#xA;[...]  &#xD;&#xA;All these worlds, as said before, are joined by holes situated under the Polar Star. Shamans and spirits while going from one world to another slip through these holes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More details can be found in [Bogoraz 1902](https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/659376.pdf), which contain for instance the complete tale of the &quot;Scabby Shaman&quot; referenced in the upper text.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarly [Jochelson 1904](https://ia801907.us.archive.org/33/items/jstor-659272/659272.pdf) reported that the Koryaks believed that the&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; universe consists of a series of five worlds, one above the other, the middle one being our earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only mention of the other worlds however is that the Supreme Being lives with his family in the Upper World.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So it seems at the very least that the conception of a multilayered world was common to the indigenous Arctic populations of the Eurasian continent. However I can not find any reference (apart from an Underworld where the deads end up) of this concept in north American Arctic populations." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12002" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2619" RevisionGUID="c38f6317-6951-4d93-ad93-568e77993087" CreationDate="2017-09-21T09:02:49.210" UserId="111" Comment="corrected a couple of typos, I hope you don't mind" Text="Understanding the Antique world is quite a job,just remark that: Greeks and Romans are the easiest to understand, when we start to watch the other civilizations (Egyptians, Mesopotamians, Persians) we are definitely in alien territory,so keep that in mind. &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The Greeks was naming themselves &quot;Helen&quot; and those who were not speaking Greek &quot;Barbarians&quot;, so yes, Persians was barbarians and Egyptian was barbarians. This is something you find in Egypt &quot;The world&quot; and the rest of the world. Persians was making a huge difference between Persians/Medes and the other civilization. Sumerian was calling themselves &quot;The Black people&quot;, etc.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herodotus 2.50&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;The good old Herodotus in chapter 2.50 of the History tells us aout the Egyptian origin of the greek Gods, this passage has to be cited completely:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; σχεδὸν δὲ καὶ πάντων τὰ οὐνόματα τῶν θεῶν ἐξ Αἰγύπτου ἐλήλυθε ἐς τὴν&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ἑλλάδα. διότι μὲν γὰρ ἐκ τῶν βαρβάρων ἥκει, πυνθανόμενος οὕτω εὑρίσκω&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ἐόν· δοκέω δ᾽ ὦν μάλιστα ἀπ᾽ Αἰγύπτου ἀπῖχθαι. ὅτι γὰρ δὴ μὴ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ποσειδέωνος καὶ Διοσκούρων, ὡς καὶ πρότερόν μοι ταῦτα εἴρηται, καὶ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ἥρης καὶ Ἱστίης καὶ Θέμιος καὶ Χαρίτων καὶ Νηρηίδων, τῶν ἄλλων θεῶν&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Αἰγυπτίοισι αἰεί κοτε τὰ οὐνόματα ἐστὶ ἐν τῇ χώρῃ. λέγω δὲ τὰ λέγουσι&#xD;&#xA;&gt; αὐτοὶ Αἰγύπτιοι. τῶν δὲ οὔ φασι θεῶν γινώσκειν τὰ οὐνόματα, οὗτοι δέ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; μοι δοκέουσι ὑπὸ Πελασγῶν ὀνομασθῆναι, πλὴν Ποσειδέωνος· τοῦτον δὲ τὸν&#xD;&#xA;&gt; θεὸν παρὰ Λιβύων ἐπύθοντο· οὐδαμοὶ γὰρ ἀπ᾽ ἀρχῆς Ποσειδέωνος&#xD;&#xA;&gt; οὔνομα ἔκτηνται εἰ μὴ Λίβυες καὶ τιμῶσι τὸν θεὸν τοῦτον αἰεί.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; νομίζουσι δ᾽ ὦν Αἰγύπτιοι οὐδ᾽ ἥρωσι οὐδέν.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;English translation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; By making inquiries, I discovered that the names of the gods came to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hellas from barbarians; and I myself concluded that they derive&#xD;&#xA;&gt; specifically from Egypt, for [1] the names of the gods have been known&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in Egypt since the earliest times, except for Poseidon and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dioskouroi (as I mentioned earlier); as well as Hera, Histia, Themis,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Graces, and the Nereids. Here I am reporting what the Egyptians&#xD;&#xA;&gt; themselves say, and this leads me to believe that the gods whose names&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they deny knowing were named by the Pelasgiansb- all except for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Poseidon, since this god was introduced to the Hellenes by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Libyans, who alone, among all peoples, have always honored him and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; have possessed the name of Poseidon from the beginning. And as to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dioskouroi, the Egyptians do not believe in heroes at all.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice also, and this is constant in Herodotus, that almost all gods of other country are given Greek names, here for example the Lybian are related to Poseidon.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Some other point here showing the relation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2.41: Their statue of Isis has a woman's body with horns like a cow's, just&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as the Hellenes portray Io&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2.42 And since the Egyptians call Zeus by the name of Ammon, it seems to me&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that the Ammonians also received their name from the appellation of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2.43 Moreover, the fact is that the Egyptians did not take the &quot;name of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Herakles&quot; from the Hellenes, but that the Hellenes (that is, those&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hellenes who established the name of Herakles as the son of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Amphitryona) took it from the Egyptians; this can be demonstrated by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; many proofS, especially by the fact that both parents of Herakles,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Amphitryon and Alkmene, were of Egyptian descent&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;NB: Herakles parents are descendant of Perseus which was a descendant of Aigyptos [Αἴγυπτος = Egypt in Greek].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Foreign Greek god&#xD;&#xA;-----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We have a very clear example of a Thracian Goddess (Bendis) included in teh Anthenian pantheon during the war of the Peloponese:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is Richard Farnell notes of her:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Thracian Bendis was probably in origin and character the same as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the great mother of Phrygia, and was whorshipped (...) with the same&#xD;&#xA;&gt; orgiastic rites(...) we also hear of Bendis as the great goddess of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lemnos to whom human victims were offered... The reasons for this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; association of the greek maidenly goddess with teh Bendis-Hekate-Brimo&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the patroness of savage magic and terrifying superstition, may have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; been some external ressemblance of attributes, but also probably, some&#xD;&#xA;&gt; consanguinity of character. Like Artemis, the Thracian divinity was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; supposed to ride on bulls; like Artemis, she was a mighty huntress,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; though her weapon was not the bow, but the spear in each hand.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So basically we see that Bendis was included in the Athenian pantheon of god roughly for political reasons namely the alliance with the Thracians. As a goddess of hunt, dark ritual magic and bulls, Bendis was linked naturally to Hekate-Artemis (note the theme of the moon). Notice that what Plato is talking about, the fact the Athenians was riding with torch in their hands is purely an Artemis ritual.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can readmore on that [here][1] where I gave a more complete historical account.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;External mythological elements&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I can also add that Greek did happily borrowed element in other mythologies, especially in Mesopotamia.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is for example Odysseus killing the Cyclops, I meant Nergal killing Igidallru:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[![https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSTEQcgA_i_A6BsBgdcuYoz22fEjcbl_QMOE7Unfxraglfkow68iQ][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The borrowing of the Greeks there is quite extensive...&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Here is for example the start of the Hittite song of Kummarbi, that you can parallel with hesiod's Theogony:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For a mere nine years Alalu was king in heaven. In the ninth year Anu&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gave battle against Alalu and he defeated Alalu. He (Alalu) fled&#xD;&#xA;&gt; before him and went down to the Dark Earth. Down he went to the Dark&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Earth, and Anu took his seat on his throne. Anu was sitting on his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; throne, and weighty Kumarbi was giving him drink. (Kumarbi) was bowing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; down at his feet and placing in his hand the drinking cups.&lt;BR&gt;  For a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mere nine years Anu remained king in heaven. In the ninth year Anu&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gave battle against Kumarbi. Kumarbi, Alalu's offspring, gave battle&#xD;&#xA;&gt; against Anu. Anu can no longer withstand Kumarbi's eyes. Anu wriggled&#xD;&#xA;&gt; loose from his (Kumarbi's) hands and fled. He set out for the sky.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (But) Kumarbi rushed after him, seized Anu by the feet/legs, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dragged him down from the sky.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Kumarbi) bit his (Anu's) loins, and his &quot;manhood&quot; united with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kumarbi's insides like bronze (results from the union of copper and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tin). When Kumarbi had swallowed the &quot;manhood&quot; of Anu, he rejoiced and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; laughed out loud.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ceremony over the Hellespont&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;this is a ceremony we find in Herodotus VII-54, this ceremony is done by the Achaemenid king Xerxes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then, as the sun was rising, Xerxes poured a libation from a golden&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cup into the sea as he faced the sun and prayed that nothing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; unexpected would happen to stop him from subjugating Europe before he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reached the very ends of that land. After his prayer, he threw the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; libation cup into the Hellespont,. along with a golden mixing bowl and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a Persian sword, which they call an akinakes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is now the ceremony described by Arrian in his Anabasis (VI-19), At the mouth of the Indus Aleander the Great is doing this ceremony:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then he sacrificed bulls to Poseidon, and cast them into the sea, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after the sacrifice poured a libation and cast into the sea the cup&#xD;&#xA;&gt; made of gold and golden bowls as thankofferings, praying that Posidon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; would safely convoy the naval force he intended to dispatch with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Nearchus towards the Persian Gulf.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apart from the minor difference (the presence of a bull and Poseidon specifically named), the ceremony are the exact same. They both filled a golden cup pray and threw the whole in the &quot;sea&quot;... Alexander being Greek and Xeres Persian something is weird.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Notice more amusingly that Alexander will do this over the Hellespont (I.11):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Alexander sacrificed] a bull to Posidon and the Nereids in the midst&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the Hellespont strait, and pour[ed] into the sea a drink offering&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from a golden bowl.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Again same exact ceremony, which tickle to believe Xerxes is doing a Greek ceremony at the Persian sauce. Xerxes is turning toward the sun (basically Ahura-Mazda, the Persian god) during the ceremony.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;We can find a clear explanation in Herodotus VII-54:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Having taken complete possession of Athens, Xerxes now sent off a mounted messenger&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to Artabanos to announce his present success, and the day after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sending the messenger, he summoned the exiles from Athens who had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; accompanied him and ordered them to climb to the Acropolis and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sacrifice according to their tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pretty obviously in Xerxes army there was Greeks (don't mention that to Zak snyder pretty please) and here obviously he reward them by having them performing a Greek ceremony inside the Acropole. which lead to believe when we compare Xerxes ceremony and Alexander ceremony that Xerxes ceremony over the Hellespont is Greek not Persian (Greek sauce Persian for the obvious presence of Ahura-Mazda).&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;We can confirm that when we see Cyrus the Great (Cyrus -&gt; Cambyses -&gt; Darius -&gt; Xerxes) restoring the ceremony after conquering Babylon, Cambyses respecting the Gods of Egypt (don't read Herodotus there read the Egyptians).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Evolution of Greek myths&#xD;&#xA;------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did the Greek mythology evolve through time. Indeed, I invite you to read my fairly detailed description of Medusa's evolution from [Homeric time up to Ray Harryhausen][4].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Small conclusion&#xD;&#xA;----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does every of that means that the Antique world is open minded and the Christians world made of intolerants? That would be naive (very). One has to see that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The Antique civilizations communicated without a doubt, we find track of Egyptian stories in India.&#xD;&#xA; - Most of the so called openess in term of religion is hidden by the fact almost every time it is open for political reasons.That is well illustrated by Xerxes Greek ceremony, Cyrus &quot;restoring&quot; the old babylonian religion, the goddess Bendis suddenly entering the Athenian pantheon. One can illustrate the drawback here. Herodotus mentions that Cyrus' son, Cambyses is &quot;mad&quot; while his other Smerdis is replaced by a &quot;false copy&quot;. A close examination of Egyptian source makes clear that Cambyses followed the general &quot;Acheamenid trend&quot; of keeping the local religion. And all the Smerdis affair is highly smelly. So it seems Darius probably usurped the throne and thus is the true origin of this &quot;degenerated Cyrus' sons&quot;.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Note also that when we are speaking of the Antique world we are speaking about an incredibly small amount of people. 10/15% among the Greeks was free people. But now let's discuss the rest, made of the women, the slaves, the Lacedemonians Helots, the 2nd/3rd/4th sons (notice that this only the first male heir persisted during the whole Middle Age and the Renaissance), etc. Those had no right at all. When you was part of the 10/15% life was awesome, when not... That is where you have to moderate seriously the so-called openness you can find. It is generally fairly restricted to highly political reasons. When there was no political reasons, Greeks/Mesopotamians/Egyptians/Persians are infamous to slaughter every men, enslave every women and burn down every local cult temples. And by the way, that is not the question here, but Christians shown high openness as well for the same political reasons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2496/are-artemis-and-bendis-the-same/2497#2497&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/EdKWB.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/qJNKe.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1817/could-you-look-at-medusas-head-through-a-distorted-surface/1830#1830" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12003" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2979" RevisionGUID="3547e03a-a729-4c2b-bc63-7bd2a4ebe3b0" CreationDate="2017-09-21T09:05:18.500" UserId="111" Comment="added 6 characters in body" Text="This is only a partial answer concerning Arctic mythologies:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [Bogoraz (1907)](http://digitallibrary.amnh.org/dspace/bitstream/2246/5745/5/M11Pt02.pdf), the Chukchee's cosmogonical beliefs include the idea of a multilayered world, the North Star being the passage between them (see this previous [question/answer](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/430/111) of mine): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; COSMOGONICAL BELIEFS.- According to the cosmogonical beliefs of the Chukchee, there are several worlds situated one above another, in such a manner that the ground of one forms the sky of the one below. The number of these worlds is stated as five, seven, or nine. These worlds are arranged symmetrically above and below the earth, each of the lower worlds having a corresponding one above it.  &#xD;&#xA;According to a statement in the tale of &quot;The Scabby Shaman&quot; which gives many curious details of the subject, there are four large worlds besides the earth. Those nearest to the earth are occupied by ke'let; the next, by men. In the upper and lower worlds there are the same number of animals on the land, birds in the air, and fish in the sea, so that the amount of life is the same above and below the earth.  &#xD;&#xA;According to other statements, the lowest world is occupied by those who have died twice, and therefore cannot return to earth. Some of these worlds have several suns, the number of which varies from two to eight.&#xD;&#xA;When it is winter in our world, it is summer in the next, and vice versa. &#xD;&#xA;[...]   &#xD;&#xA;These worlds are not very far apart. In the tale of &quot;The Shaman with Warts&quot;, a shaman, while struggling with his rival, is hurled through two worlds, piercing the heaven of one head foremost, and that of the next feet foremost; then he lands in the third world on the moving ground of the clouds.  &#xD;&#xA;[...]  &#xD;&#xA;All these worlds, as said before, are joined by holes situated under the Polar Star. Shamans and spirits while going from one world to another slip through these holes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More details can be found in [Bogoraz (1902)](https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/659376.pdf), which contain for instance the complete tale of the &quot;Scabby Shaman&quot; referenced in the upper text.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarly [Jochelson (1904)](https://ia801907.us.archive.org/33/items/jstor-659272/659272.pdf) reported that the Koryaks believed that the&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; universe consists of a series of five worlds, one above the other, the middle one being our earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only mention of the other worlds however is that the Supreme Being lives with his family in the Upper World.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So it seems at the very least that the conception of a multilayered world was common to the indigenous Arctic populations of the Eurasian continent. However I can not find any reference (apart from an Underworld where the deads end up) of this concept in north American Arctic populations." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12005" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2971" RevisionGUID="f37b15de-b16d-46a7-9e48-57e04a5c50c0" CreationDate="2017-09-21T10:44:06.513" UserId="3230" Comment="title, grammar" Text="As I'm sure all of you know, the Old Testament is the Hebrew bible. Why then do Christians not follow the same rules as the Jews? When Christianity was attracting attention, Paul said that Jews who converted had to follow the Jewish law, but gentiles did not. If the halacha (Jewish law) is still technically in the Christian bible, then why are things like keeping Kosher are not observed by Christians? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, if a Jew were to convert today, do they use Paul's idea, or stop following Jewish law (obviously it's up to the person, but is there any evidence to suggest that that's how it should be done)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12006" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2971" RevisionGUID="f37b15de-b16d-46a7-9e48-57e04a5c50c0" CreationDate="2017-09-21T10:44:06.513" UserId="3230" Comment="title, grammar" Text="Why did Christians, who take a huge part of their Bible from Jews, not have to follow the same rules as Jews?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12007" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2971" RevisionGUID="f37b15de-b16d-46a7-9e48-57e04a5c50c0" CreationDate="2017-09-21T10:44:06.513" Comment="Proposed by 3230 approved by 57 edit id of 484" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12008" PostHistoryTypeId="11" PostId="2971" RevisionGUID="bd166dcd-ce30-41cf-80b2-0256de2970da" CreationDate="2017-09-21T10:45:15.083" UserId="57" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:3989,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Brian Donovan&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:3230,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Girsan Virlee&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;yannis&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="12009" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2619" RevisionGUID="fcde7d76-792d-4713-9c99-55988b2ae06d" CreationDate="2017-09-21T15:26:00.503" UserId="2774" Comment="more typos corrections" Text="Understanding the Antique world is quite a job,just remark that: Greeks and Romans are the easiest to understand, when we start to watch the other civilizations (Egyptians, Mesopotamians, Persians) we are definitely in alien territory,so keep that in mind. &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The Greeks was naming themselves &quot;Helen&quot; and those who were not speaking Greek &quot;Barbarians&quot;, so yes, Persians was barbarians and Egyptian was barbarians. This is something you find in Egypt &quot;The world&quot; and the rest of the world. Persians was making a huge difference between Persians/Medes and the other civilization. Sumerian was calling themselves &quot;The Black people&quot;, etc.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herodotus 2.50&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;The good old Herodotus in chapter 2.50 of the History tells us about the Egyptian origin of the Greek Gods, this passage has to be cited completely:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; σχεδὸν δὲ καὶ πάντων τὰ οὐνόματα τῶν θεῶν ἐξ Αἰγύπτου ἐλήλυθε ἐς τὴν&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ἑλλάδα. διότι μὲν γὰρ ἐκ τῶν βαρβάρων ἥκει, πυνθανόμενος οὕτω εὑρίσκω&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ἐόν· δοκέω δ᾽ ὦν μάλιστα ἀπ᾽ Αἰγύπτου ἀπῖχθαι. ὅτι γὰρ δὴ μὴ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ποσειδέωνος καὶ Διοσκούρων, ὡς καὶ πρότερόν μοι ταῦτα εἴρηται, καὶ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ἥρης καὶ Ἱστίης καὶ Θέμιος καὶ Χαρίτων καὶ Νηρηίδων, τῶν ἄλλων θεῶν&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Αἰγυπτίοισι αἰεί κοτε τὰ οὐνόματα ἐστὶ ἐν τῇ χώρῃ. λέγω δὲ τὰ λέγουσι&#xD;&#xA;&gt; αὐτοὶ Αἰγύπτιοι. τῶν δὲ οὔ φασι θεῶν γινώσκειν τὰ οὐνόματα, οὗτοι δέ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; μοι δοκέουσι ὑπὸ Πελασγῶν ὀνομασθῆναι, πλὴν Ποσειδέωνος· τοῦτον δὲ τὸν&#xD;&#xA;&gt; θεὸν παρὰ Λιβύων ἐπύθοντο· οὐδαμοὶ γὰρ ἀπ᾽ ἀρχῆς Ποσειδέωνος&#xD;&#xA;&gt; οὔνομα ἔκτηνται εἰ μὴ Λίβυες καὶ τιμῶσι τὸν θεὸν τοῦτον αἰεί.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; νομίζουσι δ᾽ ὦν Αἰγύπτιοι οὐδ᾽ ἥρωσι οὐδέν.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;English translation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; By making inquiries, I discovered that the names of the gods came to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hellas from barbarians; and I myself concluded that they derive&#xD;&#xA;&gt; specifically from Egypt, for [1] the names of the gods have been known&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in Egypt since the earliest times, except for Poseidon and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dioskouroi (as I mentioned earlier); as well as Hera, Histia, Themis,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Graces, and the Nereids. Here I am reporting what the Egyptians&#xD;&#xA;&gt; themselves say, and this leads me to believe that the gods whose names&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they deny knowing were named by the Pelasgiansb- all except for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Poseidon, since this god was introduced to the Hellenes by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Libyans, who alone, among all peoples, have always honored him and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; have possessed the name of Poseidon from the beginning. And as to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dioskouroi, the Egyptians do not believe in heroes at all.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice also, and this is constant in Herodotus, that almost all Gods of other country are given Greek names, here for example the Lybian are related to Poseidon.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Some other points here showing the relation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2.41: Their statue of Isis has a woman's body with horns like a cow's, just&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as the Hellenes portray Io&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2.42 And since the Egyptians call Zeus by the name of Ammon, it seems to me&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that the Ammonians also received their name from the appellation of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2.43 Moreover, the fact is that the Egyptians did not take the &quot;name of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Herakles&quot; from the Hellenes, but that the Hellenes (that is, those&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hellenes who established the name of Herakles as the son of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Amphitryona) took it from the Egyptians; this can be demonstrated by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; many proofS, especially by the fact that both parents of Herakles,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Amphitryon and Alkmene, were of Egyptian descent&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;NB: Herakles parents are descendants of Perseus which was a descendant of Aigyptos [Αἴγυπτος = Egypt in Greek].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Foreign Greek god&#xD;&#xA;-----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We have a very clear example of a Thracian Goddess (Bendis) included in the Anthenian pantheon during the war of the Peloponnese:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is Richard Farnell notes of her:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Thracian Bendis was probably in origin and character the same as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the great mother of Phrygia, and was whorshipped (...) with the same&#xD;&#xA;&gt; orgiastic rites(...) we also hear of Bendis as the great goddess of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lemnos to whom human victims were offered... The reasons for this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; association of the greek maidenly goddess with teh Bendis-Hekate-Brimo&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the patroness of savage magic and terrifying superstition, may have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; been some external ressemblance of attributes, but also probably, some&#xD;&#xA;&gt; consanguinity of character. Like Artemis, the Thracian divinity was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; supposed to ride on bulls; like Artemis, she was a mighty huntress,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; though her weapon was not the bow, but the spear in each hand.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So basically we see that Bendis was included in the Athenian pantheon of Gods roughly for political reasons namely the alliance with the Thracians. As a Goddess of hunt, dark ritual magic and bulls, Bendis was linked naturally to Hekate-Artemis (note the theme of the moon). Notice that what Plato is talking about, the fact the Athenians were riding with torches in their hands is purely an Artemis ritual.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can readmore on that [here][1] where I gave a more complete historical account.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;External mythological elements&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I can also add that Greeks did happily borrowed elements in other mythologies, especially in Mesopotamia.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is for example Odysseus killing the Cyclops, I meant Nergal killing Igidallru:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[![https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSTEQcgA_i_A6BsBgdcuYoz22fEjcbl_QMOE7Unfxraglfkow68iQ][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The borrowing of the Greeks there is quite extensive...&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Here is for example the start of the Hittite song of Kummarbi, that you can parallel with hesiod's Theogony:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For a mere nine years Alalu was king in heaven. In the ninth year Anu&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gave battle against Alalu and he defeated Alalu. He (Alalu) fled&#xD;&#xA;&gt; before him and went down to the Dark Earth. Down he went to the Dark&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Earth, and Anu took his seat on his throne. Anu was sitting on his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; throne, and weighty Kumarbi was giving him drink. (Kumarbi) was bowing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; down at his feet and placing in his hand the drinking cups.&lt;BR&gt;  For a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mere nine years Anu remained king in heaven. In the ninth year Anu&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gave battle against Kumarbi. Kumarbi, Alalu's offspring, gave battle&#xD;&#xA;&gt; against Anu. Anu can no longer withstand Kumarbi's eyes. Anu wriggled&#xD;&#xA;&gt; loose from his (Kumarbi's) hands and fled. He set out for the sky.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (But) Kumarbi rushed after him, seized Anu by the feet/legs, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dragged him down from the sky.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Kumarbi) bit his (Anu's) loins, and his &quot;manhood&quot; united with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kumarbi's insides like bronze (results from the union of copper and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tin). When Kumarbi had swallowed the &quot;manhood&quot; of Anu, he rejoiced and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; laughed out loud.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ceremony over the Hellespont&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a ceremony we find in Herodotus VII-54, this ceremony is done by the Achaemenid king Xerxes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then, as the sun was rising, Xerxes poured a libation from a golden&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cup into the sea as he faced the sun and prayed that nothing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; unexpected would happen to stop him from subjugating Europe before he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reached the very ends of that land. After his prayer, he threw the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; libation cup into the Hellespont,. along with a golden mixing bowl and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a Persian sword, which they call an akinakes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is now the ceremony described by Arrian in his Anabasis (VI-19); at the mouth of the Indus Alexander the Great is doing this ceremony:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then he sacrificed bulls to Poseidon, and cast them into the sea, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after the sacrifice poured a libation and cast into the sea the cup&#xD;&#xA;&gt; made of gold and golden bowls as thankofferings, praying that Posidon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; would safely convoy the naval force he intended to dispatch with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Nearchus towards the Persian Gulf.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apart from the minor differences (the presence of a bull and Poseidon specifically named), the ceremony are exactly the same. They both filled a golden cup, pray and threw the whole content of the cup into the &quot;sea&quot;... Alexander being Greek and Xeres Persian something is weird.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Notice more amusingly that Alexander will do this over the Hellespont (I.11):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Alexander sacrificed a bull to Poseidon and the Nereids in the midst&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the Hellespont strait, and pour[ed] into the sea a drink offering&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from a golden bowl.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Again same exact ceremony, which tickle to believe Xerxes is doing a Greek ceremony at the Persian sauce. Xerxes is turning toward the sun (basically Ahura-Mazda, the Persian god) during the ceremony.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;We can find a clear explanation in Herodotus VII-54:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Having taken complete possession of Athens, Xerxes now sent off a mounted messenger&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to Artabanos to announce his present success, and the day after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sending the messenger, he summoned the exiles from Athens who had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; accompanied him and ordered them to climb to the Acropolis and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sacrifice according to their tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pretty obviously in Xerxes army there was Greeks (don't mention that to Zak Snyder pretty please) and here obviously he rewarded them by having them performing a Greek ceremony inside the Acropole. Which lead to believe when we compare Xerxes ceremony and Alexander ceremony that Xerxes ceremony over the Hellespont was Greek not Persian (Greek sauce Persian for the obvious presence of Ahura-Mazda).&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;We can confirm that when we see Cyrus the Great (Cyrus -&gt; Cambyses -&gt; Darius -&gt; Xerxes) restoring the ceremony after conquering Babylon, Cambyses respecting the Gods of Egypt (don't read Herodotus there read the Egyptians).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Evolution of Greek myths&#xD;&#xA;------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did the Greek mythology evolved through time. Indeed, I invite you to read my fairly detailed description of Medusa's evolution from [Homeric time up to Ray Harryhausen][4].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Small conclusion&#xD;&#xA;----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does every of that means that the Antique world is open minded and the Christians world made of intolerants? That would be naive (very). One has to see that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The Antique civilizations communicated without a doubt, we find track of Egyptian stories in India.&#xD;&#xA; - Most of the so called openess in term of religion is hidden by the fact almost every time it is open for political reasons. That is well illustrated by Xerxes Greek ceremony, Cyrus &quot;restoring&quot; the old babylonian religion, the goddess Bendis suddenly entering the Athenian pantheon. One can illustrate the drawback here. Herodotus mentions that Cyrus' son, Cambyses is &quot;mad&quot; while his other Smerdis is replaced by a &quot;false copy&quot;. A close examination of Egyptian source makes clear that Cambyses followed the general &quot;Acheamenid trend&quot; of keeping the local religion. And all the Smerdis affair is highly smelly. So it seems Darius probably usurped the throne and thus is the true origin of this &quot;degenerated Cyrus' sons&quot;.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Note also that when we are speaking of the Antique world we are speaking about an incredibly small amount of people. 10/15% among the Greeks was free people. But now let's discuss the rest, made of the women, the slaves, the Lacedemonians Helots, the 2nd/3rd/4th sons (notice that this only the first male heir persisted during the whole Middle Age and the Renaissance), etc. Those had no right at all. When you was part of the 10/15% life was awesome, when not... That is where you have to moderate seriously the so-called openness you can find. It is generally fairly restricted to highly political reasons. When there was no political reasons, Greeks/Mesopotamians/Egyptians/Persians are infamous to slaughter every men, enslave every women and burn down every local cult temples. And by the way, that is not the question here, but Christians shown high openness as well for the same political reasons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2496/are-artemis-and-bendis-the-same/2497#2497&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/EdKWB.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/qJNKe.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1817/could-you-look-at-medusas-head-through-a-distorted-surface/1830#1830" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12010" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2980" RevisionGUID="deb3ee94-3fb1-4538-a96d-826a15ea754a" CreationDate="2017-09-21T16:25:24.183" UserId="3947" Text="According to Matthew 5:17, Jesus says that He came not to get rid of the Law or the Prophets (i.e. the Old Testament) but to fulfill them. The other writers of the New Testament agree with this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, in Romans 3:25-26, Paul writes &quot;God presented [Jesus] Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of His blood - to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance He had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished - He did it to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the One who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.&quot; Hebrews 7:27 says &quot;Unlike the other high priests, [Jesus] does not need to sacrifice day after day, first for His own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when He offered Himself.&quot; From these verses (and similar passages) we see that Jesus fulfilled the Law of atonement of sin; He did not get rid of it but fulfilled it by being the ultimate sacrifice for us. Ephesians 5:2 shows that Jesus' sacrifice was acceptable to God, thus being able to atone for our sin. (In case you want to know why Jesus needed to be sacrificed only once, read Hebrews 10:1-18)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Throughout the Gospels, we see the authors pointing out how Jesus fulfilled the prophecies of the Prophets. The author of Matthew points it out more than the other 3. We also see the authors of the rest of the New Testament pointing it out also all throughout their writings. [Here](http://biblewiki.com/List_of_Prophecies_of_the_Messiah) is a table filled with prophecies from the Old Testmant that Jesus fulfilled. Feel free to examine it, but for now I will mention one as an example.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Old Testament, the prophet Micah said that out of Bethlehem will come for God one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times. (Micah 5:2) As seen in Matthew 2:1-6 and Luke 2:4-7, Jesus was born in Bethlehem. According to John 1:1-5 and 1:14, Jesus existed in the beginning and became a human, dwelling with us. Even Jesus Himself claims He existed before even Abraham in John 8:58. From the genealogies of Jesus, though they may be confusing, they both agree that Jesus came from the line of King David, thus having royal blood. While being questioned by Pilate (John 18:33-38), Jesus was asked if He was a king, with Jesus saying that His kingdom was not of this world. And in the future, as recorded in Revelation, Jesus will come again set up His kingdom on earth, ruling from Jerusalem. So we see that Jesus fulfilled this prophecy from the Prophet Micah. This is just one of over 300 prophecies that Jesus fulfilled.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Christians in a way still obey the Old Testament, but they do so through Jesus. Because Jesus fulfilled them, we are living in obedience to them by living for Jesus and having our faith in Him." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12011" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2981" RevisionGUID="9ace02ef-a128-4588-be46-d0ebfc76d9fb" CreationDate="2017-09-21T17:02:50.317" UserId="3947" Text="A possible theory of mine that may or may not be true. In Ezekiel 28:12-14, the king of Tyre (who is commonly believed to be Satan) is described as a cherub. In Ezekiel 1, the prophet Ezekiel saw 4 living creatures that had 4 faces, one of which is a bull. Later in chapter 10, he sees them again but says their are cherubim, and remembers that he had seen them earlier (in chapter 1). He describes their faces again, but there is one difference: instead of a face of a bull, they have a face of cherub. It looks like there are two types of cherubs: one that look bull-like and one that has 4 faces. Being that the king of Tyre is said to have been a cherub, and that he is believed to be Satan, it may have been circulated that Satan had bull horns because he had a face similar to a bull. Of course, this was the result of people assuming that the King of Tyre was Satan, which the Bible does not say suggest as far as I am aware of." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12012" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2976" RevisionGUID="9e6605e0-9a2c-4417-8178-3db16b3f5533" CreationDate="2017-09-21T21:56:29.037" UserId="2892" Comment="added some links" Text="The Stoics had a doctrine about '[ekpyrosis][1]' - a recurrent world conflagration. It was well in antiquity, [Chrysippus][2] being credited for its original exposition. Details are given in David E. Hahm. *The Origins of Stoic Cosmology*, Ohio State University Press, 1977. or AA Long, *Stoics on world conflagration*, Southern journal of philosophy 23 (1985): 13-37 (and a rejoinder in a later issue 28.1 (1990): 149-58).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Actually the ekpyrosis was modelled as the beginning of a 'cosmic summer' in the [Great Year][3]: after very long interval all planets gather at the start of Cancer (the next important gathering is at the start of Capricorn and flood occurs).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekpyrosis&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysippus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Year" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12013" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2491" RevisionGUID="76d2aa58-d772-4e02-bccd-070d40b3e989" CreationDate="2017-09-22T00:52:51.733" UserId="967" Comment="I hove you didn't mean an anchient greek cannon...." Text="Destruction of the universe by fire in the Ancient Greek canon?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12015" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2983" RevisionGUID="547fa89c-8ce8-4f77-b199-a3da59356120" CreationDate="2017-09-22T06:24:28.730" UserId="4182" Text="The hero of Iliad, Achilles  is half man and half god because his mother is a goddess and his father is a god. Then how come is Gilgamesh 2/3 god? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12016" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2983" RevisionGUID="547fa89c-8ce8-4f77-b199-a3da59356120" CreationDate="2017-09-22T06:24:28.730" UserId="4182" Text="Why is Gilgamesh 1/3 a man, 2/3 a god?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12017" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2983" RevisionGUID="547fa89c-8ce8-4f77-b199-a3da59356120" CreationDate="2017-09-22T06:24:28.730" UserId="4182" Text="|gilgamesh|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12019" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="2983" RevisionGUID="4343423e-f5ab-432d-ba1b-a6e2bd3795bb" CreationDate="2017-09-22T08:50:58.203" UserId="57" Comment="101" Text="{&quot;OriginalQuestionIds&quot;:[1835],&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:2774,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Gibet&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;yannis&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="12020" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2981" RevisionGUID="f386a942-c05c-4bef-941c-0ae64a22ff46" CreationDate="2017-09-22T14:49:03.607" UserId="3947" Comment="added related resources or links and expanded answer" Text="I have a theory that could possibly explain this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [Ezekiel 28:12-14](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/verse/en/Ezekiel+28:12-14), the king of Tyre (who is commonly believed to be Satan) is described as a cherub. In [Ezekiel 1](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/verse/en/Ezekiel+1), the prophet Ezekiel saw 4 living creatures that had 4 faces, one of which is a bull. Later in [chapter 10](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/verse/en/Ezekiel+10), he sees them again but says their are cherubim, and remembers that he had seen them earlier (in chapter 1). He describes their faces again, but there is one difference: instead of a face of a bull, they have a face of cherub. It looks like there are two types of cherubs: one that look bull-like and one that has 4 faces.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Being that the king of Tyre is said to have been a cherub, and that he is believed to be Satan, it may have been circulated that Satan had bull horns because he had a face similar to a bull. Of course, this was the result of people assuming that the King of Tyre was Satan, which the Bible does not explicitly say as far as I am aware of.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, most Bible interpreters believe that the Ezekiel 28 prophecy against Tyre was a dual prophecy, both against the king of Tyre and against Satan. This is believed because some descriptions appear to be beyond human, such as being a guardian cherub or having been in Eden or on God's holy mountain. Some go as far as to believe that the king of Tyre was possibly possessed by Satan. ([Source](https://www.gotquestions.org/King-of-Tyre.html)) Some more arguments supporting that the prophecy is partially about Satan can be found [here](https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_82.cfm).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Either way, this could possibly resulted in people thinking that Satan has horns and depicting him as such. The main issue here is that Satan is a spirit, and has no form. Thus does not have horns. Although, he could very well (and actually does) take on the form of a creature with horns or even a cherub. The Bible supports this in [2 Corinthians 11:14](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/verse/en/2+Corinthians+11:14), where it says that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. If he can make himself look like an angel of light, could he not also make himself look like other things?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12021" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2984" RevisionGUID="afe5b021-f188-4514-99b1-fd87becef5b4" CreationDate="2017-09-22T15:43:33.817" UserId="4190" Text="     If we were to leave to expand or literature beyond Christianity for the sake of understanding angels we could look at the Qur 'an.   Here we have beings called the Djinn,  they were another cast of beings who had powers beyond that of man but also had free will like man.   If Lucifer was indeed an angel he would not be able to rebel against the will of God.  But if he were perhaps a Djinn he could do so. shaytan-jinn where jinn that where also called demons... these beings are known for their wickedness, trickery, and doing favors for humans for something else in return.Christians do not call these beings djinn and instead refer to them purely as demons, Muslims believe demons are a specific type of djinn.  However it could also be the case that Lucifer may have been a hybrid of both angel and djinn. Meaning any rank would not matter to him because he was something else entirely, and perhaps being a hybrid made him more powerful than the elite angels anyway.    The Djinn are said to have inhabited our world before man arrived, and that they, for the most part became corrupt and abused their powers, god sent angels to destroy the wicked djinn and replaced their dominion with mankind.  Now this could have also been what added fuel to them rebellion as well.   But anyways since angels cannot rebel yet Lucifer was an angel...would mean he could have been a hybrid of some sort. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12022" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2985" RevisionGUID="16b630ab-9eaf-4a31-8ab5-b2db4b1265f6" CreationDate="2017-09-22T15:46:56.943" UserId="3989" Text="The relevance and applicability of the Mosaic Code to Christians, especially gentile Christians, is a vexed theological question that Paul addresses and tries to finesse in more than one of his epistles&amp;mdash;but those are rather theological discourses than mythic narratives, and so less proper for this community&amp;rsquo;s attention. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The New Testament narrative most obviously relevant to this point is Peter&amp;rsquo;s Dream in Acts of the Apostles ([Acts 10.9&amp;ndash;16][1]), in which a sheet is lowered from heaven holding a variety of animals and a disembodied voice directs Peter to &amp;ldquo;kill and eat.&amp;rdquo; Peter, addressing the voice as &amp;ldquo;Lord,&amp;rdquo; demurs at first because of Mosaic dietary restrictions, which hold some of these animals to be ritually unclean and &amp;ldquo;common&amp;rdquo;&amp;mdash;meaning diet for some general population but not for Jews like him. But a disembodied voice tells him not so to regard or term what God has ritually cleansed or purified. And the whole exchange is repeated for a total of three iterations, after which the sheet or &amp;ldquo;vessel&amp;rdquo; full of animals is withdrawn back up to heaven. This dream-tale is commonly interpreted as lifting the Mosaic dietary restrictions from the Christian community.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are also various narratives in the synoptic gospels in which Jesus is shown to despise the Pharisees&amp;rsquo; excessive insistence on the letter of the Mosaic Code against common sense and charity (e.g., [Luke 14.1&amp;ndash;6][2] &amp; [Matt. 12.1&amp;ndash;14][3]), but these are more tangentially relevant than Peter&amp;rsquo;s Dream.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+10%3A9-16&amp;version=NRSV&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+14%3A1-6&amp;version=NRSV&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+12%3A1-6&amp;version=NRSV" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12023" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2986" RevisionGUID="5dbe91ec-0a58-4b28-aecd-bf19c0ab4bec" CreationDate="2017-09-22T16:28:53.820" UserId="3989" Text="Presumably because he seemed that much more like a god than like a man. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Our present understanding of heredity was not yet available, and absent that, the proportion between the genetic inheritances from father and mother was pretty much anyone&amp;rsquo;s guess. In the *Eumenides* of Aeschylus, the god Apollo [claims the father&amp;rsquo;s share is 100%][1]! (The chorus of Furies does not buy it.) Sterne in *Tristram Shandy* (Vol. 1 [1759] Chap. 2) mocks the somewhat similar theory of the spermatozoon as containing a miniature but complete version of the person to be begotten, the *homunculus.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even *with* the benefit of modern understanding of chromosomes, meiosis, and fertilization, the notion that one can be one-quarter Czech (or whatever), because exactly one grandparent was supposedly pure Czech, persists despite the obvious arithmetical fact that the number of chromosomes in our species&amp;rsquo; somatic cell nuclei, forty-six, is not an integral multiple of four. This obsolete notion is even written into [current law][2], with current real consequences, as applied to membership in recognized Indian tribes within the United States.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0006%3Acard%3D640&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_quantum_laws" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12025" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2984" RevisionGUID="e1209a5c-74f3-4c78-889e-97f1e577b19c" CreationDate="2017-09-22T17:06:31.710" UserId="398" Comment="deleted 5 characters in body" Text="If we were to leave to expand or literature beyond Christianity for the sake of understanding angels we could look at the Qur 'an.   Here we have beings called the Djinn,  they were another cast of beings who had powers beyond that of man but also had free will like man.   If Lucifer was indeed an angel he would not be able to rebel against the will of God.  But if he were perhaps a Djinn he could do so. shaytan-jinn where jinn that where also called demons... these beings are known for their wickedness, trickery, and doing favors for humans for something else in return.Christians do not call these beings djinn and instead refer to them purely as demons, Muslims believe demons are a specific type of djinn.  However it could also be the case that Lucifer may have been a hybrid of both angel and djinn. Meaning any rank would not matter to him because he was something else entirely, and perhaps being a hybrid made him more powerful than the elite angels anyway.    The Djinn are said to have inhabited our world before man arrived, and that they, for the most part became corrupt and abused their powers, god sent angels to destroy the wicked djinn and replaced their dominion with mankind.  Now this could have also been what added fuel to them rebellion as well.   But anyways since angels cannot rebel yet Lucifer was an angel...would mean he could have been a hybrid of some sort. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12028" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2987" RevisionGUID="54acd7e9-44d1-4517-bee1-f2375e281b10" CreationDate="2017-09-22T18:11:36.780" UserId="3474" Text="In the question, [&quot;What happened to Theseus after Heracles found him&quot;] [1] that I answered, someone edited my answer and replaced Heracles with Herakles. I was confused because when I searched up [Heracles] [2] on the internet, it showed that he was spelled 'Heracles'. After that, I also searched up [Herakles] [3] and it showed him being spelled 'Heracles'.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, can someone please explain to me why @Rodia edited my answer so that Herakles replaced Heracles? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1884/what-happened-to-theseus-after-herakles-found-him/2385#2385&#xD;&#xA;[2]: https://www.google.com/search?q=heracles&amp;rlz=1CAHPZP_enUS758US760&amp;oq=heracles&amp;aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.1765j0j1&amp;sourceid=chrome&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;safe=active&amp;ssui=on&#xD;&#xA;[3]: https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1CAHPZP_enUS758US760&amp;q=herakles&amp;oq=herakles&amp;gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l4.1541825.1541927.0.1542623.2.2.0.0.0.0.101.101.0j1.1.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.1.100....0.iYCAW5qqQeQ&amp;safe=active&amp;ssui=on" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12029" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2987" RevisionGUID="54acd7e9-44d1-4517-bee1-f2375e281b10" CreationDate="2017-09-22T18:11:36.780" UserId="3474" Text="Is it Heracles or Herakles?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12030" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2987" RevisionGUID="54acd7e9-44d1-4517-bee1-f2375e281b10" CreationDate="2017-09-22T18:11:36.780" UserId="3474" Text="|greek|hercules|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12031" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2988" RevisionGUID="c6e50085-7df4-40b9-b0f1-d538cbf1c6e0" CreationDate="2017-09-22T19:02:49.740" UserId="967" Text="It's both. From my limited greek knowledge, κ is kappa, which translates to c or k. As a result, there's a Herakles and Heracles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Though to be fair, Herakles looks a lot &quot;older&quot; and traditional than Heracles.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    Ἡρ α|κ|λῆς&#xD;&#xA;    Hera|c|les&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Stuff like this happens to Asklepios, I mean Asclepius &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    Ασ|κ|ληπιος&#xD;&#xA;    As|k|lepios&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;even Nike. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    Νικη&#xD;&#xA;    Nicé&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that it will always have the /k/ pronunciation." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12032" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2989" RevisionGUID="a94aba61-3b6e-4f65-ab39-7dab2bef6c50" CreationDate="2017-09-22T19:06:57.920" UserId="2892" Text="Great question!  Bleh is correct on the rendering in English (or other languages using the Latin alphabet) being dual, either a &quot;c&quot; or &quot;k&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **It is also [Hercules][1] !**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is the Latin form of the hero's name.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aentry%3DHercules" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12034" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="2961" RevisionGUID="76d07372-11fb-4ade-8b81-5c4d93c49388" CreationDate="2017-09-22T20:50:53.660" UserId="3302" Comment="56" />
  <row Id="12035" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2990" RevisionGUID="ebd6fbfb-c500-47a8-908a-e4eab5d3b92c" CreationDate="2017-09-22T21:40:34.703" UserId="4191" Text="Both are correct: if you're not going to call him Ἡρακλῆς, then you need some way of representing his name in the Roman alphabet. Systems for doing this have changes over time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Classically](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Greek#Ancient_Greek), in English, the letter kappa (κ) has been transliterated as&amp;nbsp;&quot;c&quot;.  However, in the [modern standard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Greek#Ancient_Greek), designed by the Hellenic Organization for Standardization and adopted internationally by ISO, the UN and other organizations, kappa becomes&amp;nbsp;&quot;k&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In English, many people use a hybrid of the two systems. Because names such as Heracles, Cronos, Electra, and Hecate and places such as Crete, Cos, Crfu, Corinth, Macedonia and Attica are so well known that they're always written that way in English.  Similarly, words such as _cycle_, _ecclesiastical_ and _draconian_ also come from Greek words where kappas have been romanized as&amp;nbsp;&quot;c&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, modern names and places that weren't well-known in English before the modern transliteration scheme are usually spelled with &quot;k&quot;s. If you look at a map of Greece labelled in English, you'll see lots of these: Heraklion, Kythira, Mykonos, Lefkada, etc. Always Constantine the Great, but usually Konstantinos Karamanlis (though sometimes Constantine Caramanlis)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12036" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2990" RevisionGUID="4227d977-87ff-433c-af8a-bf4001f8b1f3" CreationDate="2017-09-22T21:53:29.617" UserId="4191" Comment="added 10 characters in body" Text="Both are correct: if you're not going to call him Ἡρακλῆς, then you need some way of representing his name in the Roman alphabet. Systems for doing this have changes over time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Classically](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Greek#Ancient_Greek), in English, the letter kappa (κ) has been transliterated as&amp;nbsp;&quot;c&quot;.  However, in the [modern standard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Greek#Ancient_Greek), designed by the Hellenic Organization for Standardization and adopted internationally by ISO, the UN and other organizations, kappa becomes&amp;nbsp;&quot;k&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In English, many people use a hybrid of the two systems. Because names such as Heracles, Cronos, Electra, Hecate and Socrates and places such as Crete, Cos, Corfu, Corinth, Macedonia and Attica are so well known under those spellings, they're always written that way in English.  Similarly, words such as _cycle_, _ecclesiastical_ and _draconian_ also come from Greek words where kappas have been romanized as&amp;nbsp;&quot;c&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, modern names and places that weren't well-known in English before the modern transliteration scheme are usually spelled with &quot;k&quot;s. If you look at a map of Greece labelled in English, you'll see lots of these: Heraklion, Kythira, Mykonos, Lefkada, etc. Always Constantine the Great, but usually Konstantinos Karamanlis (though sometimes Constantine Caramanlis)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12037" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2988" RevisionGUID="71ab7dbe-c918-4d59-a51c-c8e8288de1ca" CreationDate="2017-09-22T21:57:53.747" UserId="967" Comment="added 89 characters in body" Text="It's both. From my limited greek knowledge, κ is kappa, which translates to c or k. As a result, there's a Herakles and Heracles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;s&gt;(Though to be fair, Herakles looks a lot &quot;older&quot; and traditional than Heracles.)&lt;/s&gt; As @DavidRicherby states, c is the traditional translation of kappa instead of k.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    Ἡρ α|κ|λῆς&#xD;&#xA;    Hera|c|les&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Stuff like this happens to Asklepios, I mean Asclepius &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    Ασ|κ|ληπιος&#xD;&#xA;    As|k|lepios&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;even Nike. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    Νικη&#xD;&#xA;    Nicé&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that it will always have the /k/ pronunciation." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12038" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2986" RevisionGUID="e7abe5a9-e967-4374-83e5-875d961e9d40" CreationDate="2017-09-22T22:42:06.713" UserId="3989" Comment="Moved verb &quot;persists&quot; to follow its subject directly." Text="Presumably because he seemed that much more like a god than like a man. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Our present understanding of heredity was not yet available, and absent that, the proportion between the genetic inheritances from father and mother was pretty much anyone&amp;rsquo;s guess. In the *Eumenides* of Aeschylus, the god Apollo [claims the father&amp;rsquo;s share is 100%][1]! (The chorus of Furies does not buy it.) Sterne in *Tristram Shandy* (Vol. 1 [1759] Chap. 2) mocks the somewhat similar theory of the spermatozoon as containing a miniature but complete version of the person to be begotten, the *homunculus.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even *with* the benefit of modern understanding of chromosomes, meiosis, and fertilization, the notion persists that one can be one-quarter Czech (or whatever), because exactly one grandparent was supposedly pure Czech, despite the obvious arithmetical fact that the number of chromosomes in our species&amp;rsquo; somatic cell nuclei, forty-six, is not an integral multiple of four. This obsolete notion is even written into [current law][2], with current real consequences, as applied to membership in recognized Indian tribes within the United States.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0006%3Acard%3D640&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_quantum_laws" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12039" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2990" RevisionGUID="fab9a9c3-b539-48a1-a13a-4d4c1830f2d6" CreationDate="2017-09-22T23:10:21.297" UserId="4191" Comment="Use of K in latin" Text="Both are correct: if you're not going to call him Ἡρακλῆς, then you need some way of representing his name in the Roman alphabet. Systems for doing this have changes over time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The letter &quot;k&quot; fell out of use in Latin so, [classically](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Greek#Ancient_Greek) the letter kappa (κ) has been transliterated as&amp;nbsp;&quot;c&quot;, and this carried through to English.  However, in the [modern standard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Greek#Ancient_Greek), designed by the Hellenic Organization for Standardization and adopted internationally by ISO, the UN and other organizations, kappa becomes&amp;nbsp;&quot;k&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In English, many people use a hybrid of the two systems. Because names such as Heracles, Cronos, Electra, Hecate and Socrates and places such as Crete, Cos, Corfu, Corinth, Macedonia and Attica are so well known under those spellings, they're always written that way in English.  Similarly, words such as _cycle_, _ecclesiastical_ and _draconian_ also come from Greek words where kappas have been romanized as&amp;nbsp;&quot;c&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, modern names and places that weren't well-known in English before the modern transliteration scheme are usually spelled with &quot;k&quot;s. If you look at a map of Greece labelled in English, you'll see lots of these: Heraklion, Kythira, Mykonos, Lefkada, etc. Always Constantine the Great, but usually Konstantinos Karamanlis (though sometimes Constantine Caramanlis)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12047" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2972" RevisionGUID="defbba50-1564-410c-8e66-cd971b55ddd9" CreationDate="2017-09-23T06:39:59.073" UserId="3341" Comment="added 529 characters in body" Text="Edited for: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://goo.gl/EFECcG&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Grail -Two Studies&#xD;&#xA;By Leopold von Schroeder, Alexander Jacob&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;p 51&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The representation of the sun as heavenly mill has already been ascertained by Kuhn.[66] &quot;In German folk-songs the morning sun appears as a mill when it grinds silver and gold on the mountain. On the representation of the sun as a mill is based the fact that the Milky Way, in which the sun is supposed to stand at noon, is called the Mill Way.  That is why Kuhn and Schiefner have traced back the Grotti mill as well as the Sampo derived therefrom to the sun conceived of as a wonderful mill.&quot;  The full proof of the correctness of this interpretation however has been brought forward only by the most recent Kalevala research, and indeed in a remarkable song from Ingermannland in which the liberation of the sun and moon from the power of the evil Louhi emerges quite clearly as just another verstion of the acquisition of the Sampo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;...Therefore the moon would have as much a claim to be the original image of the Sampo-or of the Grail. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;End of excerpt." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12052" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="1055" RevisionGUID="876e0c47-76c4-41f9-97e5-460d748c95aa" CreationDate="2017-09-23T17:33:24.653" UserId="-1" Comment="53" />
  <row Id="12054" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2996" RevisionGUID="52059f61-e5d4-4c1b-b74d-7ec2d38562e1" CreationDate="2017-09-23T19:26:38.403" UserId="4198" Text="Since I don't know a lot of mythology from the cultures around central Asia (the countries where the Snow Leopard comes from) and I'm trying to get info. about the cultural impact that that animal could have I'm looking for some help. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12055" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2996" RevisionGUID="52059f61-e5d4-4c1b-b74d-7ec2d38562e1" CreationDate="2017-09-23T19:26:38.403" UserId="4198" Text="Are there any deities or mythological beasts inspired on Snow Leopards?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12056" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2996" RevisionGUID="52059f61-e5d4-4c1b-b74d-7ec2d38562e1" CreationDate="2017-09-23T19:26:38.403" UserId="4198" Text="|mythical-creatures|animals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12057" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2996" RevisionGUID="f8f991e4-2866-4dd6-9865-966198eb11a0" CreationDate="2017-09-23T19:41:09.770" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|myth-identification|animals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12058" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2997" RevisionGUID="5b55b1ad-cd27-404a-9c16-a108f964c3b7" CreationDate="2017-09-24T00:17:07.647" UserId="3341" Text="This turned out to be interesting - thanks for the question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Wiktionary - Etymology**&#xD;&#xA;From Middle English sterre, from Old English steorra (“star”), from Proto-Germanic *sternô, *sternǭ (“star”), from Proto-Indo-European *h₂stḗr (“star”).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Arabic: نَجْم‏‎ (ar) m (najm), نَجْمَة‏‎ f (najma), كَوْكَب‏‎ (kawkab)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Egyptian Arabic: نجمة‏‎ f (negma)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Egyptian: sbꜣ&#xD;&#xA;[![Egyptian star][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Old High German: sterno&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;•	Gothic:  f (stairnō)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;•	Greek: αστέρι (el) n (astéri), άστρο (el) n (ástro)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ancient Greek: ἀστήρ m (astḗr), ἄστρον n (ástron)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;•	Hebrew: כּוֹכַב‏‎ (he) m (kokháv)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;•	Hindi: तारा (hi) m (tārā), सितारा (hi) m (sitārā)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;•	Old Norse: stjarna f&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mario-livio/the-five-pointed-star-as_b_6192742.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mario Livio  &#xD;&#xA;Astrophysicist&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A pentagram appears on a jar dated to 3100 BCE, found north of Thebes in Egypt. The incision appears to have been done in one continuous motion,.... &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Snip) Interestingly, pentagrams from the same period were found in Mesopotamia. Those included a five-pointed star on a tablet from Uruk, dated to about 3200 BCE; a design on a vase dated to 3000 BCE from Jemdet Nasr; and another design in spindle whorl from the same time, also from Jemdet Nasr.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Snip) In Sumarian and Akkadian cuneiform texts, the meaning of the five-pointed star was the “regions of the inhabited world.” Thus, we can find it in sentences such as: “which are not the regions warmed by the brightness of your light.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Snip) Historian A. de la Fuÿe speculated that the pentagram could have originally been an anthropomorphic symbol of Hygeia, the Greek goddess of health (Figure 3). While the connection appears tenuous, it shows the level of interest that the five-pointed star has generated over the years.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://goo.gl/CngUb6&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thoughout history stars have been represented in many different ways. One of the most common today is the 5 pointed star, but 4,6,7,8 and even more points have been used. Some cultures also represented stars more like they are seen in the sky, as dots, or small circles. The 5 pointed star might have originated from the way the Egyptians represented the star in hyroglypics. If you look at a really bright star sometime you might notice that it does appear to have lines coming out from it. These are called diffraction spikes and appear because of the way the light enters your eye which is a small circular hole. (Astronomers are very familiar with diffraction because it provides the fundamental limit to the detail we can make out in distant objects). I suspect that the ultimate origin of the pointed star is those spikes, although that's just an educated guess.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/cnri6.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12059" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2998" RevisionGUID="1e1992ed-a3f3-413a-aa57-1dbc44143985" CreationDate="2017-09-24T15:23:57.490" UserId="3741" Text="How did Pan die?&#xD;&#xA;===========&#xD;&#xA;Well, there isn't a reason given anywhere so it's completely open to interpretation. Christian apologists/apologetics use it almost as a transition point:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is said truly in a sense that Pan died because Christ was born. It is almost as true in another sense that men knew that Christ was born because Pan was already dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A more modern approach is that it was just Thamus mishearing what was said:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thamus, apparently misheard Thamus Panmegas tethneke 'the all-great Tammuz is dead' for 'Thamus, Great Pan is dead!'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This one is strange, but it sort of makes sense as it would be as if Thamus was trying to make sense of it since he wouldn't be familiar with [Tammuz][1]. It also makes some more sense because after the Plutarch, there are still shrines to Pan and multiple other signs that Pan is not actually dead. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can choose to interpret Pan's death however you want because there is no information given other than the fact that Pan is dead. I hope you found this helpful, but if you didn't then I hope you find what it is you are looking for.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both of these quotes are taken from the 'The &quot;death&quot; of Pan' section at the [Wikipedia page for Pan][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tammuz_(deity)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_(god)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12060" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="2999" RevisionGUID="919aefc2-be9f-43f8-87c0-c5b3e6bf296a" CreationDate="2017-09-24T15:29:10.470" UserId="4093" Text="According to psychologist, Carl Jung, there are divisions into one's mind. The &quot;Self&quot; (Oftend described as &quot;Higher-Self&quot; or &quot;Soul&quot;) is what hold all of those divisions togheter. (Or try to) It is what gives balance and stability of who you *truly* are or can be.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![1][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The hero archtype is the personification of the ego (for larger reasons I wont explain here.) In Campbell's and Vogler's writings, there are mentions about the &quot;Shadow&quot; as well. It is portraid as an antagonist to the hero, but not necessarily the villain. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**There isn't, however, a specific archtype for the Self.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**What journeys and/or archtypes can be told as an journey/archtype for the self?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/xcmlj.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12061" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="2999" RevisionGUID="919aefc2-be9f-43f8-87c0-c5b3e6bf296a" CreationDate="2017-09-24T15:29:10.470" UserId="4093" Text="Hero is the Ego, but what is the Self/Soul?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12062" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="2999" RevisionGUID="919aefc2-be9f-43f8-87c0-c5b3e6bf296a" CreationDate="2017-09-24T15:29:10.470" UserId="4093" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12063" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3000" RevisionGUID="e327e612-db89-452d-9940-b212b052f262" CreationDate="2017-09-24T15:29:10.470" UserId="4093" Text="I've heard that the **&quot;Heroine's Journey&quot;** from fairy tales and Disney movies **can be considered as the &quot;Soul's Journey&quot;** because the heroine often needs to recieve help from other people in order to reach her goal. Different from the masculine hero, it is common that he passes the dangers all by himself. But **the female hero needs conection and relationship.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Examples:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Redhood was helped by the Huntsman to kill the wolf.&#xD;&#xA; - Cinderella only outbrave the stepmother after she met the prince with the help of the fairy godmather.&#xD;&#xA; - What about the seven dwarves that follows Snow White?&#xD;&#xA; - Other examples can be found throughout other tales.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The soul can only lives with relationship. There is no such thing as an individual soul. What can be called as &quot;individual&quot; is the ego, and the ego is, by defenition, egoist. The soul, by other hand, embraces the totality of the subject and even embraces the shadow, often told as a friend. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think that one may also say that a &quot;Mentor's&quot; journey or archtype can be said as a journey/archtype for the Self, as psychology say that its function is to give more consciousness, perception and comprehension of life. But in this case, in order for you to &quot;conduct&quot; and teach like a mentor, you must first be conducted and be teached as a student.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like you are doing now.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The hero's journey is the most common structure in hollywood movies and stories, but we are not heroes all of the time. Nowadays we live polarized by opinions and politic views because everyone wants to be a hero, but a hero defends what one's believe. It is too easy to be King when there is no one left to pawn. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, are you going to be a hero, or you will be your*Self?*" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12064" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3001" RevisionGUID="9c2f9d5c-d1f9-4451-b7f6-4c766589a46d" CreationDate="2017-09-24T18:29:17.017" UserId="4142" Text="I guess that except for many=3 such cosmoi are rare. Mythology is usually a way to explain and the three kinds &quot;better&quot;, &quot;same&quot;, &quot;worse&quot; exhaust the classes of possible qualities. If a cosmos is not just a place but something really different, for many&gt;3 there should be a rather complicated story to tell. Going from one place to an other is what we call travel, so cosmic travels are rather unlilkely.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12065" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3001" RevisionGUID="bab33fba-7550-4f92-aaeb-0a173e7b745e" CreationDate="2017-09-24T18:34:22.070" UserId="4142" Comment="typo" Text="I guess that except for many=3 such cosmoi are rare. Mythology is usually a way to explain and the three kinds &quot;better&quot;, &quot;same&quot;, &quot;worse&quot; exhaust the classes of possible qualities. If a world is not just a place but something really different, for many&gt;3 there should be a rather complicated story to tell. Going from one place to an other is what we call travel, so cosmic travels are rather unlilkely.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12066" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="2749" RevisionGUID="3b22115c-031a-42eb-b67a-62bc9e93bcd6" CreationDate="2017-09-24T18:45:40.787" UserId="-1" Comment="54" />
  <row Id="12067" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2903" RevisionGUID="6cb4265d-90ad-45aa-af50-443f2994cacd" CreationDate="2017-09-24T18:47:16.150" UserId="3741" Comment="edited body" Text="I think the animal is a [sidehill gouger][1].&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Sidehill gougers are North American folkloric creatures adapted to living on hillsides by having legs on one side of their body shorter than the legs on the opposite side.&#xA;&#xA;Your ties of it to Paul Bunyan are probably right because if you look [here][2] you can find an entry on a &quot;Sidehill Dodger&quot; which is another name for the same creature.&#xA;&#xA;I can't find the exact myth though.&#xA;&#xA;Similar to the sidehill gouger, there is the [dahu][3], a French mythical creature, and the [wild haggis][4] from Scotland.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidehill_gouger&#xA;  [2]: http://www.lumberwoods.com/paulbunyanx3.htm&#xA;  [3]: https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahu&#xA;  [4]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_haggis" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12069" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="1792" RevisionGUID="74cf6046-e561-44a6-9fe1-a1da6e266d7e" CreationDate="2017-09-24T20:56:55.677" UserId="183" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:183,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;HDE 226868&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="12072" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2972" RevisionGUID="ca08195a-b1a3-49e4-a0ce-aa72f95af7c9" CreationDate="2017-09-25T07:25:23.917" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 14 characters in body" Text="[The Grail -Two Studies][1] (p 51). By Leopold von Schroeder, Alexander Jacob:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The representation of the sun as heavenly mill has already been ascertained by Kuhn.[66] &quot;In German folk-songs the morning sun appears as a mill when it grinds silver and gold on the mountain. On the representation of the sun as a mill is based the fact that the Milky Way, in which the sun is supposed to stand at noon, is called the Mill Way.  That is why Kuhn and Schiefner have traced back the Grotti mill as well as the Sampo derived therefrom to the sun conceived of as a wonderful mill.&quot;  The full proof of the correctness of this interpretation however has been brought forward only by the most recent Kalevala research, and indeed in a remarkable song from Ingermannland in which the liberation of the sun and moon from the power of the evil Louhi emerges quite clearly as just another verstion of the acquisition of the Sampo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ... &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Therefore the moon would have as much a claim to be the original image of the Sampo-or of the Grail. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://goo.gl/EFECcG" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12073" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3002" RevisionGUID="86f31e7c-5159-4580-bea4-510d3020a693" CreationDate="2017-09-25T08:57:46.840" UserId="57" Text="According to the [Wikipedia article on Māori mythology][1], the gods Tūmatauenga (god of war), Tāhirimātea (storm god), Tāne (god of forests), Tangaroa (sea god), Rongo (god of cultivated plants and peace), and Haumia (god of wild food plants) are represented by these wooden &quot;godsticks&quot;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Carved sticks representing the Māori gods Tūmatauenga (god of war), Tāhirimātea (storm god), Tāne (god of forests), Tangaroa (sea god), Rongo (god of cultivated plants and peace), and Haumia (god of wild food plants), New Zealand, 19th century][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What characteristics of the Māori gods explain the shapes of these staffs?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; Image source: J. White, *The Ancient History of the Maori*, 6 Volumes, plus 1 volume of illustrations (Government Printer: Wellington), 1887-1891.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%81ori_mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/zpfIP.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12074" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3002" RevisionGUID="86f31e7c-5159-4580-bea4-510d3020a693" CreationDate="2017-09-25T08:57:46.840" UserId="57" Text="What characteristics of the Māori gods explain the shape of their &quot;godsticks&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12075" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3002" RevisionGUID="86f31e7c-5159-4580-bea4-510d3020a693" CreationDate="2017-09-25T08:57:46.840" UserId="57" Text="|symbolism|maori|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12076" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3002" RevisionGUID="90002c89-9e98-4241-a93f-1f8fa58a6b82" CreationDate="2017-09-25T09:11:05.247" UserId="57" Comment="added 11 characters in body" Text="According to the [Wikipedia article on Māori mythology][1], the gods Tūmatauenga (god of war), Tāhirimātea (storm god), Tāne (god of forests), Tangaroa (sea god), Rongo (god of cultivated plants and peace), and Haumia (god of wild food plants) are represented by these wooden &quot;godsticks&quot;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Carved sticks representing the Māori gods Tūmatauenga (god of war), Tāhirimātea (storm god), Tāne (god of forests), Tangaroa (sea god), Rongo (god of cultivated plants and peace), and Haumia (god of wild food plants), New Zealand, 19th century][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What characteristics of the Māori gods are represented in the shapes of these staffs?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; Image source: J. White, *The Ancient History of the Maori*, 6 Volumes, plus 1 volume of illustrations (Government Printer: Wellington), 1887-1891.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%81ori_mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/zpfIP.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12077" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2999" RevisionGUID="76157089-307d-4a52-b3b5-acc52ddb5ae4" CreationDate="2017-09-25T10:03:35.670" UserId="57" Comment="spelling" Text="According to psychologist Carl Jung, there are divisions into one's mind. The &quot;Self&quot; (often described as &quot;Higher-Self&quot; or &quot;Soul&quot;) is what hold all of those divisions together (or try to). It is what gives balance and stability of who you *truly* are or can be.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![1][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The hero archetype is the personification of the ego (for larger reasons I won't explain here). In Campbell's and Vogler's writings, there are mentions about the &quot;Shadow&quot; as well. It is portrayed as an antagonist to the hero, but not necessarily the villain. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**There isn't, however, a specific archetype for the Self.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**What journeys and/or archetypes can be told as a journey/archetype for the self?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/xcmlj.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12078" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2999" RevisionGUID="76157089-307d-4a52-b3b5-acc52ddb5ae4" CreationDate="2017-09-25T10:03:35.670" UserId="57" Comment="spelling" Text="|archetypes|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12079" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3000" RevisionGUID="3d5c3046-6f16-4de0-86d3-3d20e3202bd7" CreationDate="2017-09-25T10:04:57.210" UserId="57" Comment="added 7 characters in body" Text="I've heard that the **&quot;Heroine's Journey&quot;** from fairy tales and Disney movies **can be considered as the &quot;Soul's Journey&quot;** because the heroine often needs to receive help from other people in order to reach her goal. Different from the masculine hero, it is common that he passes the dangers all by himself. But **the female hero needs connection and relationship.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Examples:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Redhood was helped by the Huntsman to kill the wolf.&#xD;&#xA; - Cinderella only outbraves the stepmother after she met the prince with the help of the fairy godmother.&#xD;&#xA; - What about the seven dwarves that follow Snow White?&#xD;&#xA; - Other examples can be found throughout other tales.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The soul can only live with a relationship. There is no such thing as an individual soul. What can be called as &quot;individual&quot; is the ego, and the ego is, by definition, egoist? The soul, on the other hand, embraces the totality of the subject and even embraces the shadow, often told as a friend. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think that one may also say that a &quot;Mentor's&quot; journey or archetype can be said as a journey/archetype for the Self, as psychology say that its function is to give more consciousness, perception and comprehension of life. But in this case, in order for you to &quot;conduct&quot; and teach like a mentor, you must first be conducted and be taught as a student.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like you are doing now.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The hero's journey is the most common structure in Hollywood movies and stories, but we are not heroes all of the time. Nowadays we live polarized by opinions and politic views because everyone wants to be a hero, but a hero defends what one believes. It is too easy to be King when there is no one left to pawn. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, are you going to be a hero, or you will be your *self?*" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12080" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2996" RevisionGUID="4e77f6dd-e616-4431-ab55-c78613e2bcda" CreationDate="2017-09-25T10:07:53.647" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 51 characters in body; edited tags; edited title; edited tags" Text="I don't know a lot about the mythology of central Asian cultures (where the snow leopard comes from). I'm trying to find more information on the cultural impact the animal could have. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12081" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2996" RevisionGUID="4e77f6dd-e616-4431-ab55-c78613e2bcda" CreationDate="2017-09-25T10:07:53.647" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 51 characters in body; edited tags; edited title; edited tags" Text="Are there any deities or mythological beasts inspired by snow leopards?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12082" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2996" RevisionGUID="4e77f6dd-e616-4431-ab55-c78613e2bcda" CreationDate="2017-09-25T10:07:53.647" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 51 characters in body; edited tags; edited title; edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|myth-identification|animals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12083" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3003" RevisionGUID="316560c4-9316-44aa-a01c-12b6ae01767a" CreationDate="2017-09-25T13:39:39.303" UserId="3230" Text="There is a collection of snow leopard myths on the [Snow Leopard Conservancy][1] website: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Nepalese Myths Surrounding Snow Leopards (1)][2]&#xD;&#xA;- [Nepalese Myths Surrounding Snow Leopards (2)][3]&#xD;&#xA;- [Tibetan Myths Surrounding Snow Leopards][4]&#xD;&#xA;- [Snow Leopards, Mountain Spirits and Sacred Space in Northern Pakistan][5]&#xD;&#xA;- [The Otter and the Snow Leopard][6]&#xD;&#xA;- [The Four Harmonious Brothers][7]&#xD;&#xA;- [Snow Leopard, Otter, and Domestic Cat][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://snowleopardconservancy.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://snowleopardconservancy.org/text/myth/nepmyths.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://snowleopardconservancy.org/text/myth/nepmythstoo.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://snowleopardconservancy.org/text/myth/tibmyths.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://snowleopardconservancy.org/text/myth/pakmyths.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://snowleopardconservancy.org/text/myth/pakmyths2.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://snowleopardconservancy.org/text/myth/ladakhmyths.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://snowleopardconservancy.org/text/myth/zanskmyths.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12084" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3004" RevisionGUID="e7e1bc1a-a886-44ff-92b9-53fe83b2afc9" CreationDate="2017-09-25T17:45:20.120" UserId="3341" Text="&#xD;&#xA;This turned out to be quite a hodge-podge, so if I get a downvote, I'll remove all but the Cassiopeia reference. I seem to attract only anonymous downvotes in the two SE groups I subscribe to, so it would surprise me not to get one here where there is so little expert analysis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Came across these clues while investigating 'the goat'.  It's a work in progress, for sure.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://brickthology.com/2015/09/07/pleiades-part-3/&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ukrainian Mythology**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are a few different names that the Pleiades are known as in traditional Ukrainian folklore. Some of these names are Stozhary, which can be traced etymologically to the word **stozharnya, meaning “granary,” “storehouse for hay and crops”** or it can be reduced to it’s meaning of sto-zhar, meaning “hundredfold glowing.” Other names for the Pleiades are Volosozhary and Baby-Zvizdy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With the names Volosozhary, which means “the ones whose hair is glowing” and ‘Baby-Zvizdy which means “female-stars,”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;((there's also a 'hen with chicks' ref to the Pleiades that could be connected to the Bile?))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anyway, what really caught my attention was the ref to Sagittarius as a 'teapot' and that it had a lid. (Sag. is also depicted as a 'stick man'.)  Theory - the daughter asked for a 'lid' - could she have requested a hymen.  And, if so, could what was done to one was also done to the other - which put a prepuce on the male?  Could that be behind the edict for circumcision?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, if the Milky Way is a nursery for souls, what would a hymen/divider look like in the Milky way?  The parting of the 'Reed Sea'/Red Sea - separating good from evil souls - north and south. Slain heroes to the north; lost souls to the south? &quot;The corpus callosum is a thick band of nerve fibers that divides the cerebral cortex lobes into left and right hemispheres. It connects the left and right sides of the brain allowing for communication between both hemispheres.&quot; Separation of a single breast into two?  Testes?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;As above, so below.&quot; (We're the microcosm of the macrocosm.) Whatever happens in the upper realm, occurs in middle and lower realms in some form.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This gets even more amazing as I think more on it.  I play the &quot;What If&quot; game frequently - just trying out theories......&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The daughter asked for a 'lid'.  What if it's a 'divider' (meros/pharatz) - to divide, break in two; the making of a breach. To stop the 'warring of nations&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anyway, what if the arrow that Sagittarius shoots is an &quot;iron rod&quot; with a Holy 'arrow head' tip.  Sternum with xiphoid process?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Reminds me of a curious quote collected long ago:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;I am the owner of my shoulders, the tenant of my hips.&quot; - Malcolm de Chazal&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the penis is the 'shaft of the arrow' and the prepuce is the 'arrow head'.  But then why did the Jews remove it?  Except after the 'division' of the Red Sea - in the desert, there was no circumcision. Only desert and Water. (Please note that 'prepuce' includes the male foreskin *and* the fold of skin surrounding the clitoris, causing mutilations that folks can't comprehend in the west, it seems.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, then, what could be the point of removing the 'sword *in* the stone' - or is spiritual transformation the removal of the sword/shaft *from* the 'Stone'?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Could 'wormwood' be connected?  Wood-iron of golf? Dunno.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Back to the &quot;mill&quot;........&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://www.constellationsofwords.com/Constellations/Cassiopeia.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Theia was &quot;the goddess who endowed gold, silver and gems with their brilliance and intrinsic value&quot;. See the astrological influences given by Manilius below: **&quot;Cassiope** will produce goldsmiths who can turn their work into a thousand different shapes, endow the precious substance with yet greater value, and add thereto the vivid hue of Jewels...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cassiopeia in the 'rocking chair', rocking 'to and fro'.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12086" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3006" RevisionGUID="2e52486a-0ca7-4d70-b58d-a07cc7987300" CreationDate="2017-09-26T03:24:43.470" UserId="4211" Text="I read that Fenrir killed or devoured Odin and he was dead is that true or false also if it’s true how does he come back to life is it him resurrecting himself or other gods doing the work" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12087" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3006" RevisionGUID="2e52486a-0ca7-4d70-b58d-a07cc7987300" CreationDate="2017-09-26T03:24:43.470" UserId="4211" Text="Fenrir vs Odin. Did he die?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12088" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3006" RevisionGUID="2e52486a-0ca7-4d70-b58d-a07cc7987300" CreationDate="2017-09-26T03:24:43.470" UserId="4211" Text="|greek|odin|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12089" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3006" RevisionGUID="a2cfb850-6b0d-48a2-8c2d-39bb5b18a1c0" CreationDate="2017-09-26T06:26:07.927" UserId="666" Comment="corrected tags, punctuation" Text="I read that Fenrir killed or devoured Odin and he was dead. Is that true or false? Also, if it’s true, how does he come back to life? Is it him resurrecting himself or other gods doing the work?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12090" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3006" RevisionGUID="a2cfb850-6b0d-48a2-8c2d-39bb5b18a1c0" CreationDate="2017-09-26T06:26:07.927" UserId="666" Comment="corrected tags, punctuation" Text="|norse|odin|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12091" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3007" RevisionGUID="07c53461-f265-471d-97ae-30ec7c28174f" CreationDate="2017-09-26T06:35:15.567" UserId="666" Text="The story of Odin's demise is recorded in the *Völuspá*. The relevant stanza is number 53. I found a translation [here][1], which has some idiosyncrasies, but looks reliable:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Now comes to Hlin | yet another hurt,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;When Othin fares | to fight with the wolf,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;And Beli's fair slayer | seeks out Surt,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;For there must fall | the joy of Frigg.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Hlin&quot; is apparantly another name for Odin's wife, Frigg. &quot;Beli's slayer&quot; is Frey. So, Odin is killed by Fenrir, and no more is told of him; he is certainly not among the few gods who survives Ragnarök and goes on to govern the reborn world. This is also confirmed by a later stanza, which states that &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Then comes Sigfather's | mighty son,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Vithar, to fight | with the foaming wolf;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In the giant's son | does he thrust his sword&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Full to the heart: | his father is avenged.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So Odin is well and truly dead, and will not be reborn (the only god to come even close to that is Baldr).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe03.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12092" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3004" RevisionGUID="00b3a943-711e-4eb8-9e75-db2d6fb514e5" CreationDate="2017-09-26T08:28:28.507" UserId="57" Comment="please don't put meta commentary in your posts." Text="Came across these clues while investigating 'the goat'.  It's a work in progress, for sure.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://brickthology.com/2015/09/07/pleiades-part-3/&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ukrainian Mythology**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are a few different names that the Pleiades are known as in traditional Ukrainian folklore. Some of these names are Stozhary, which can be traced etymologically to the word **stozharnya, meaning “granary,” “storehouse for hay and crops”** or it can be reduced to its meaning of sto-zhar, meaning “hundredfold glowing.” Other names for the Pleiades are Volosozhary and Baby-Zvizdy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With the names Volosozhary, which means “the ones whose hair is glowing” and ‘Baby-Zvizdy which means “female-stars,”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(there's also a 'hen with chicks' ref to the Pleiades that could be connected to the Bible?)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anyway, what really caught my attention was the ref to Sagittarius as a 'teapot' and that it had a lid. (Sag. is also depicted as a 'stick man'.)  Theory - the daughter asked for a 'lid' - could she have requested a hymen.  And, if so, could what was done to one was also done to the other - which put a prepuce on the male?  Could that be behind the edict for circumcision?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, if the Milky Way is a nursery for souls, what would a hymen/divider look like in the Milky Way?  The parting of the 'Reed Sea'/Red Sea - separating good from evil souls - north and south. Slain heroes to the north; lost souls to the south? &quot;The corpus callosum is a thick band of nerve fibres that divides the cerebral cortex lobes into left and right hemispheres. It connects the left and right sides of the brain allowing for communication between both hemispheres.&quot; Separation of a single breast into two?  Testes?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;As above, so below.&quot; (We're the microcosm of the macrocosm.) Whatever happens in the upper realm, occurs in middle and lower realms in some form.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This gets even more amazing as I think more on it.  I play the &quot;What If&quot; game frequently - just trying out theories......&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The daughter asked for a 'lid'.  What if it's a 'divider' (meros/pharatz) - to divide, break in two; the making of a breach. To stop the 'warring of nations&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anyway, what if the arrow that Sagittarius shoots is an &quot;iron rod&quot; with a Holy 'arrowhead' tip.  Sternum with a xiphoid process?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Reminds me of a curious quote collected long ago:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;I am the owner of my shoulders, the tenant of my hips.&quot; - Malcolm de Chazal&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the penis is the 'shaft of the arrow' and the prepuce is the 'arrowhead'.  But then why did the Jews remove it?  Except after the 'division' of the Red Sea - in the desert, there was no circumcision. Only desert and Water. (Please note that 'prepuce' includes the male foreskin *and* the fold of skin surrounding the clitoris, causing mutilations that folks can't comprehend in the west, it seems.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, then, what could be the point of removing the 'sword *in* the stone' - or is spiritual transformation the removal of the sword/shaft *from* the 'Stone'?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Could 'wormwood' be connected?  Wood-iron of golf? Dunno.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Back to the &quot;mill&quot; ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://www.constellationsofwords.com/Constellations/Cassiopeia.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Theia was &quot;the goddess who endowed gold, silver and gems with their brilliance and intrinsic value&quot;. See the astrological influences given by Manilius below: **&quot;Cassiope** will produce goldsmiths who can turn their work into a thousand different shapes, endow the precious substance with yet greater value, and add thereto the vivid hue of Jewels...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cassiopeia in the 'rocking chair', rocking 'to and fro'." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12094" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3000" RevisionGUID="7b1d242f-8cf6-4e3f-9b8b-f69068ab5fe3" CreationDate="2017-09-26T11:12:45.550" UserId="4093" Comment="corrected ego is egoist by definition" Text="I've heard that the **&quot;Heroine's Journey&quot;** from fairy tales and Disney movies **can be considered as the &quot;Soul's Journey&quot;** because the heroine often needs to receive help from other people in order to reach her goal. Different from the masculine hero, it is common that he passes the dangers all by himself. But **the female hero needs connection and relationship.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Examples:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Redhood was helped by the Huntsman to kill the wolf.&#xD;&#xA; - Cinderella only outbraves the stepmother after she met the prince with the help of the fairy godmother.&#xD;&#xA; - What about the seven dwarves that follow Snow White?&#xD;&#xA; - Other examples can be found throughout other tales.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The soul can only live with a relationship. There is no such thing as an individual soul. What can be called as &quot;individual&quot; is the ego, and the ego is egoist by definition. The soul, on the other hand, embraces the totality of the subject and even embraces the shadow, often told as a friend. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think that one may also say that a &quot;Mentor's&quot; journey or archetype can be said as a journey/archetype for the Self, as psychology say that its function is to give more consciousness, perception and comprehension of life. But in this case, in order for you to &quot;conduct&quot; and teach like a mentor, you must first be conducted and be taught as a student.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like you are doing now.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The hero's journey is the most common structure in Hollywood movies and stories, but we are not heroes all of the time. Nowadays we live polarized by opinions and politic views because everyone wants to be a hero, but a hero defends what one believes. It is too easy to be King when there is no one left to pawn. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, are you going to be a hero, or you will be your *self?*" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12100" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3009" RevisionGUID="afda9dd4-d290-4511-821e-724ed88fce3b" CreationDate="2017-09-26T21:55:03.377" UserId="4142" Text="Words not much different from 'star' are generally found in languages closer to the Mediterranean, that is, the farther north you move the greater the chance to find a markedly different word (e.g. slavonic languages, gaelic etc). So one could conjecture that 'star' was something from Near East  culture and the obvious origin would be the goddess Ishtar. She was notoriously connected with the planet Venus whose apperances on the sky are probably the best known astronomical fact. The Babylonians knew that Venus-Ishtar is best seen as the morning star every 1.6 years.  But after 5 successive appearances in various seasons, that is 5x1.6=8.0 years, a cycle becomes obvious. Graphically, a cycle with step 1.6 years, taken modulo 360 is 144 degrees(1), so the appearances form a pentagram 0, 144, 288, 72, 216, 0. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did the Babylonians connect Ishtar and the graph or was the connection  a Greek invention, it is a matter of speculation, but anyway the fact is remarkable enough(2). And of course it provides an explanation why the pentagram is called a star and how this spread around the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(1)Modern observations have given a slightly different period, so the graph is rather kinky, as shown in wikipedia)&#xD;&#xA;(2)There is no clue how to connect the Egyptian symbol, which is  the skeleton of a pentagram, but is most probably something older." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12101" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="2964" RevisionGUID="76724a2b-4caa-4576-9a05-b6a0f4078bc2" CreationDate="2017-09-27T18:44:12.930" UserId="4171" Comment="55" />
  <row Id="12103" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2979" RevisionGUID="0bea4a1d-f1d6-4020-a457-d4789a0116be" CreationDate="2017-09-28T08:13:15.233" UserId="111" Comment="edited body" Text="This is only a partial answer concerning Arctic mythologies:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [Bogoras (1907)](http://digitallibrary.amnh.org/dspace/bitstream/2246/5745/5/M11Pt02.pdf), the Chukchee's cosmogonical beliefs include the idea of a multilayered world, the North Star being the passage between them (see this previous [question/answer](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/430/111) of mine): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; COSMOGONICAL BELIEFS.- According to the cosmogonical beliefs of the Chukchee, there are several worlds situated one above another, in such a manner that the ground of one forms the sky of the one below. The number of these worlds is stated as five, seven, or nine. These worlds are arranged symmetrically above and below the earth, each of the lower worlds having a corresponding one above it.  &#xD;&#xA;According to a statement in the tale of &quot;The Scabby Shaman&quot; which gives many curious details of the subject, there are four large worlds besides the earth. Those nearest to the earth are occupied by ke'let; the next, by men. In the upper and lower worlds there are the same number of animals on the land, birds in the air, and fish in the sea, so that the amount of life is the same above and below the earth.  &#xD;&#xA;According to other statements, the lowest world is occupied by those who have died twice, and therefore cannot return to earth. Some of these worlds have several suns, the number of which varies from two to eight.&#xD;&#xA;When it is winter in our world, it is summer in the next, and vice versa. &#xD;&#xA;[...]   &#xD;&#xA;These worlds are not very far apart. In the tale of &quot;The Shaman with Warts&quot;, a shaman, while struggling with his rival, is hurled through two worlds, piercing the heaven of one head foremost, and that of the next feet foremost; then he lands in the third world on the moving ground of the clouds.  &#xD;&#xA;[...]  &#xD;&#xA;All these worlds, as said before, are joined by holes situated under the Polar Star. Shamans and spirits while going from one world to another slip through these holes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More details can be found in [Bogoras (1902)](https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/659376.pdf), which contain for instance the complete tale of the &quot;Scabby Shaman&quot; referenced in the upper text.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarly [Jochelson (1904)](https://ia801907.us.archive.org/33/items/jstor-659272/659272.pdf) reported that the Koryaks believed that the&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; universe consists of a series of five worlds, one above the other, the middle one being our earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only mention of the other worlds however is that the Supreme Being lives with his family in the Upper World.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So it seems at the very least that the conception of a multilayered world was common to the indigenous Arctic populations of the Eurasian continent. However I can not find any reference (apart from an Underworld where the deads end up) of this concept in north American Arctic populations." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12105" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3010" RevisionGUID="e870a28e-11eb-41d8-b18c-7d780b13cb7f" CreationDate="2017-09-28T10:24:24.347" UserId="3230" Text="From Revelation 12 (KJ21): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; And there appeared a great wonder in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; And she, being with child, cried, travailing in birth and in pain to be delivered.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; And there appeared another wonder in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; And his tail drew a third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered to devour her child as soon as it was born.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; And she brought forth a manchild, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up unto God and to His throne.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt; And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;7&lt;/sup&gt; And there was war in Heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;8&lt;/sup&gt; and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in Heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who is this woman?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12106" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3010" RevisionGUID="e870a28e-11eb-41d8-b18c-7d780b13cb7f" CreationDate="2017-09-28T10:24:24.347" UserId="3230" Text="Who is the woman &quot;clothed with the sun&quot; in Revelation?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12107" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3010" RevisionGUID="e870a28e-11eb-41d8-b18c-7d780b13cb7f" CreationDate="2017-09-28T10:24:24.347" UserId="3230" Text="|christianity|revelation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12108" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3011" RevisionGUID="e7062d4b-a103-4eca-b216-86ace2d75cc8" CreationDate="2017-09-28T11:48:41.550" UserId="4182" Text="The following lines suggest that Enkidu was humanized as a result of having sex with Shamhat:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;When with her delights he was fully sated &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;he turned his gaze to his herd.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The gazelles saw Enkidu, they started to run,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA; the beasts of the field shied away from his presence.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Enkidu was weakened, could not run as before,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;but now he had reason, and wide understanding. &quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If, then, having sex was what made him realize he was a human, why did it have to be a prostitute to do this labor? Why was not an ordinary woman assigned to do it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12109" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3011" RevisionGUID="e7062d4b-a103-4eca-b216-86ace2d75cc8" CreationDate="2017-09-28T11:48:41.550" UserId="4182" Text="Why did humanizing Enkidu take a work of a prostitute and not of an ordinary woman?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12110" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3011" RevisionGUID="e7062d4b-a103-4eca-b216-86ace2d75cc8" CreationDate="2017-09-28T11:48:41.550" UserId="4182" Text="|gilgamesh|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12111" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3012" RevisionGUID="664d59f2-9d0a-461c-ac7b-1f6c0215f510" CreationDate="2017-09-28T12:40:30.080" UserId="57" Text="Perceptions on prostitution have changed significantly over time. While it may seem strange today that Shamhat is a prostitute, in the ancient Near East her role was [sacred][1]. An ordinary woman would not be able to civilize Enkidu, as she would lack the divine favour Shamhat's role offered her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_prostitution#Ancient_Near_East" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12112" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3011" RevisionGUID="8e6a5ca2-458e-41e8-81f9-fdff50cbf1f2" CreationDate="2017-09-28T12:47:58.230" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 13 characters in body; edited tags" Text="The following lines suggest that Enkidu was humanized as a result of having sex with Shamhat:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;When with her delights he was fully sated  &#xD;&#xA;he turned his gaze to his herd.  &#xD;&#xA;The gazelles saw Enkidu, they started to run,  &#xD;&#xA; the beasts of the field shied away from his presence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ... &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Enkidu was weakened, could not run as before,    &#xD;&#xA;but now he had reason, and wide understanding. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If, then, having sex was what made him realize he was a human, why did it have to be a prostitute to do this labor? Why was not an ordinary woman assigned to do it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12113" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3011" RevisionGUID="8e6a5ca2-458e-41e8-81f9-fdff50cbf1f2" CreationDate="2017-09-28T12:47:58.230" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 13 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|sumerian|gilgamesh|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12114" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3012" RevisionGUID="5481ee0f-c386-4340-a142-7b0b71a43647" CreationDate="2017-09-28T12:52:11.560" UserId="57" Comment="added 125 characters in body" Text="Perceptions on prostitution have changed significantly over time. While it may seem strange today that Shamhat is a prostitute, in the ancient Near East her role was sacred, a role akin to a priestess. An ordinary woman would lack the divine favour Shamhat's role offered her. Therefore she would not be able to civilize Enkidu.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further reading: [Sacred prostitution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_prostitution)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_prostitution#Ancient_Near_East" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12115" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3013" RevisionGUID="891e49e0-7cb9-44d2-89b0-df812216c5d6" CreationDate="2017-09-28T12:58:26.067" UserId="4221" Text="Someone drew this symbol on my arm, and said it was an egyptian one and had some meaning, but I can't find it anywhere. The top that is obscured curls to the left.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Gcniy.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12116" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3013" RevisionGUID="891e49e0-7cb9-44d2-89b0-df812216c5d6" CreationDate="2017-09-28T12:58:26.067" UserId="4221" Text="Anyone know what this symbol means?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12117" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3013" RevisionGUID="891e49e0-7cb9-44d2-89b0-df812216c5d6" CreationDate="2017-09-28T12:58:26.067" UserId="4221" Text="|egyptian|symbolism+|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12119" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3014" RevisionGUID="da4bbe43-10ff-4b70-ab0d-6f17003a3bdf" CreationDate="2017-09-28T15:51:39.443" UserId="42" Text="Looks like the [Adinkra &quot;Aya&quot;](http://www.adinkra.org/htmls/adinkra/aya.htm) (fern) symbol:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Adinkra Aya][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Adinkra is *not* Egyptian, though. It originates from the Ashanti and Baoulé peoples, in the neighborhood of Ghana and Côte d'Ivoire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/lrsGQ.gif" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12120" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3014" RevisionGUID="57b216b3-ede3-46b4-bda2-c1ee372a99f5" CreationDate="2017-09-28T15:54:08.587" UserId="42" Comment="added 15 characters in body" Text="Looks like the [Adinkra &quot;Aya&quot;](http://www.adinkra.org/htmls/adinkra/aya.htm) (fern) symbol:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Adinkra Aya][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Adinkra is *not* Egyptian, though. It originates from the Ashanti and Baoulé peoples, in the neighborhood of Ghana and Côte d'Ivoire (respectively).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/lrsGQ.gif" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12121" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3014" RevisionGUID="ce44ceab-d668-4a9a-9386-71b8577dd2d7" CreationDate="2017-09-28T17:38:20.110" UserId="42" Comment="added 149 characters in body" Text="Looks like the [Adinkra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adinkra_symbols) [&quot;Aya&quot;](http://www.adinkra.org/htmls/adinkra/aya.htm) (fern) symbol:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Adinkra Aya][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Adinkra is *not* Egyptian, though. It originates from the [Ashanti](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashanti_people) and [Baoulé](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baoul%C3%A9_people) peoples, in the neighborhood of Ghana and Côte d'Ivoire (respectively).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/lrsGQ.gif" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12122" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3015" RevisionGUID="1cc295f8-57fa-4734-b374-a471ca398581" CreationDate="2017-09-28T20:23:53.373" UserId="3947" Text="There is no one answer for this question. I will show you a few theories that I am aware of that describe who this woman is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mary the Mother of Jesus&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;Considering who the child she bore is, it would seem to be Mary the mother of Jesus. The description from the above chapter matches the description from the Gospels about the events surrounding the birth of Jesus. The dragon is synonymous with Herod the Great, or even Satan who may have inspired Herod the Great. Herod attempted to kill the child, but God sent an angel to warn Mary's husband Joseph about Herod's plot, causing the family to flee to Egypt. This could be synonymous with the woman fleeing to the wilderness.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some issues with this is that Jesus went with Mary and Joseph to Egypt and does not appear to have been &quot;caught up unto God and to His throne.&quot; Also, the description of the woman in verse 1 is difficult to attribute to Mary.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Virgo the Constellation&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;Another theory, which is/was quite popular recently, is that the woman is the constellation Virgo and that a lot of this is about the stars and planets. Most people who support this theory say that the prophecy in Revelation is of not just one event, but at least two, the first one being the birth of Christ as I described above. Considering this and that Mary was a virgin, it is believed that the woman is Virgo because Virgo means Virgin. This sign in heaven involves the sun being in a place that is in front of Virgo (which happens every September/October), the moon being near the feet of Virgo (where exactly is under her feet has always confused me, yet could happen each month), and Virgo having 12 stars near her head (possibly forming a ring above her head, in my opinion). When she was pregnant, the planet Jupiter (the king planet) passed through her in a way that made it look like Virgo was giving birth to Jupiter. This is an interesting idea: the Virgin constellation giving birth to the King planet. Verse 5 gives some support to this. The crown of 12 stars upon her head is currently believed to be the constellation Leo (which has 9 stars as part of its outline) and the 3 planets Mercury, Mars and Venus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This &quot;crown&quot; being present is what makes the September 23, 2017 occurrence of these signs unique. Every year, Virgo is clothed in the sun, every month the moon is at her feet, and every 12 years Jupiter moves through Virgo. For only a few days each year does Virgo have the moon at her feet and is clothed in the sun. Often times, Jupiter is in Virgo when this happens. But on September 23rd 2017 she also had a crown. The main issue with this is that there are more visible stars than just 9. Some have counted even 13 in a light-polluted neighborhood. Also, this is rather far above Virgo's head to be a crown; I would expect a crown to be a lot closer to her head. This combination of events is rare, but not unique to 2017.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Summary&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;We can speculate all we want, but we really have no idea who she is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Read More about Revelation 12&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;* [Are the Stars Lining Up on September 23 for the Lord’s Return?](https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/stars/are-stars-lining-september-23-lords-return)&#xD;&#xA;* [Biblical Signs in the Sky? September 23, 2017](http://www.vofoundation.org/blog/biblical-signs-sky-september-23-2017/)&#xD;&#xA;* [What Will Happen on September 23, 2017?](https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/stars/what-will-happen-september-23-2017)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12123" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3016" RevisionGUID="c2319c1d-d1bb-44d7-bdd9-6e845d5ae50c" CreationDate="2017-09-28T22:26:20.063" UserId="3989" Text="As Mesopotamia was one of the first places where our species built cities, naturally myth from there has to try to make sense of this new way of life, and characteristically approaches the problem by antithesis. Gilgamesh is the man of the city, and Enkidu, created to be his antithesis, is the man of the wilderness. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gilgamesh responds to the challenge posed by the creation of Enkidu by detailing the harlot Shamhat, a priestess of the temple of Ishtar that is the heart of the city, to citify him. She does this not only by absorbing his animal sexuality in her civilized embrace, but also by feeding him products of settled living: bread and beer. The effect is to contaminate his wildness, to estrange him from his power base in wild nature: afterwards he suffers from more than the normal male post-coital lethargy and his animal brothers shun him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I compare that effect to [the tactic that Heracles used on Antaeus][1]&amp;mdash;holding him elevated in a bear-hug, since the normal wrestler&amp;rsquo;s aim of taking him down to earth would just connect him with his power base, he being by some accounts a son of Gaea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D2%3Achapter%3D5%3Asection%3D11" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12125" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3017" RevisionGUID="98b2c89f-ab5a-43e4-a6fe-65de3b2b2ce7" CreationDate="2017-09-29T08:10:28.693" UserId="4105" Text="In [Did Greeks and Romans allow for belief in only some of their gods?][1], Igidallru is mentioned: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Here is for example Odysseus killing the Cyclops, I meant Nergal killing Igidallru&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As [a comment][2] points out, this apparently is the only reference to &quot;Igidallru&quot; on the internet: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As far as I can see, this apparently is the only place on the internet that the word &quot;Igidallru&quot; appears. Perhaps it has another transliteration? – mattdm &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gibet then offers [some alternative transliterations][3]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; @mattdm The internet is not the de facto source This is just the source of brilliant shortcuts. Igidalru/igedelu/igetela appears, fairly quite rarely in some Akkadian stories It was identified by René Labat, just because in Sumerian (not Akkadian) igi.dili means precisely one eye. - Gibet &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately, none of the proposed alternatives produced any usable results. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What or who is Igidallru? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2619/4105&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2618/did-greeks-and-romans-allow-for-belief-in-only-some-of-their-gods#comment7950_2619&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2618/did-greeks-and-romans-allow-for-belief-in-only-some-of-their-gods#comment7951_2619" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12126" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3017" RevisionGUID="98b2c89f-ab5a-43e4-a6fe-65de3b2b2ce7" CreationDate="2017-09-29T08:10:28.693" UserId="4105" Text="What or who is Igidallru?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12127" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3017" RevisionGUID="98b2c89f-ab5a-43e4-a6fe-65de3b2b2ce7" CreationDate="2017-09-29T08:10:28.693" UserId="4105" Text="|sumerian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12128" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3017" RevisionGUID="8cdaaf77-fde8-4ff1-a167-dd151e007348" CreationDate="2017-09-29T08:14:16.067" UserId="2774" Comment="edited tags" Text="|sumerian|akkadian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12133" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1107" RevisionGUID="b45e64be-b091-41ec-9ab3-ceff31d22e3b" CreationDate="2017-09-29T09:03:42.947" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|sumerian|akkadian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12134" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1359" RevisionGUID="b5c7c4ba-87f2-4a37-9d6f-5a4c9ff15dbe" CreationDate="2017-09-29T09:03:52.730" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|akkadian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12135" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2619" RevisionGUID="8d0492da-b2de-4d72-8b2d-51ab416a46cf" CreationDate="2017-09-29T11:03:52.270" UserId="4105" Comment="corred spelling, fixed grammar, improved formatting" Text="Understanding the ancient world is quite a job,just remark that: Greeks and Romans are the easiest to understand, when we start to watch the other civilizations (Egyptians, Mesopotamians, Persians) we are definitely in alien territory, so keep that in mind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greeks was naming themselves &quot;Hellen&quot; and those who were not speaking Greek &quot;Barbarians&quot;, so yes, Persians were barbarians and Egyptians were barbarians. This is something you find in Egypt, &quot;the world&quot; and the rest of the world. Persians were making a huge difference between Persians  / Medes and other civilization. Sumerians were calling themselves &quot;the black people&quot;, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herodotus 2.50&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;The good old Herodotus in chapter 2.50 of the History tells us about the Egyptian origin of the Greek gods, this passage has to be cited completely:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; σχεδὸν δὲ καὶ πάντων τὰ οὐνόματα τῶν θεῶν ἐξ Αἰγύπτου ἐλήλυθε ἐς τὴν&#xD;&#xA;Ἑλλάδα. διότι μὲν γὰρ ἐκ τῶν βαρβάρων ἥκει, πυνθανόμενος οὕτω εὑρίσκω ἐόν· δοκέω δ᾽ ὦν μάλιστα ἀπ᾽ Αἰγύπτου ἀπῖχθαι. ὅτι γὰρ δὴ μὴ Ποσειδέωνος καὶ Διοσκούρων, ὡς καὶ πρότερόν μοι ταῦτα εἴρηται, καὶ Ἥρης καὶ Ἱστίης καὶ Θέμιος καὶ Χαρίτων καὶ Νηρηίδων, τῶν ἄλλων θεῶν Αἰγυπτίοισι αἰεί κοτε τὰ οὐνόματα ἐστὶ ἐν τῇ χώρῃ. λέγω δὲ τὰ λέγουσι αὐτοὶ Αἰγύπτιοι. τῶν δὲ οὔ φασι θεῶν γινώσκειν τὰ οὐνόματα, οὗτοι δέ μοι δοκέουσι ὑπὸ Πελασγῶν ὀνομασθῆναι, πλὴν Ποσειδέωνος· τοῦτον δὲ τὸν θεὸν παρὰ Λιβύων ἐπύθοντο· οὐδαμοὶ γὰρ ἀπ᾽ ἀρχῆς Ποσειδέωνος οὔνομα ἔκτηνται εἰ μὴ Λίβυες καὶ τιμῶσι τὸν θεὸν τοῦτον αἰεί. νομίζουσι δ᾽ ὦν Αἰγύπτιοι οὐδ᾽ ἥρωσι οὐδέν.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;English translation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; By making inquiries, I discovered that the names of the gods came to Hellas from barbarians; and I myself concluded that they derive specifically from Egypt, for [1] the names of the gods have been known in Egypt since the earliest times, except for Poseidon and the Dioskouroi (as I mentioned earlier); as well as Hera, Histia, Themis, the Graces, and the Nereids. Here I am reporting what the Egyptians themselves say, and this leads me to believe that the gods whose names they deny knowing were named by the Pelasgiansb- all except for Poseidon, since this god was introduced to the Hellenes by the Libyans, who alone, among all peoples, have always honored him and have possessed the name of Poseidon from the beginning. And as to the Dioskouroi, the Egyptians do not believe in heroes at all.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice also, and this is constant in Herodotus, that almost all gods of other countries are given Greek names, here for example the Libyans are related to Poseidon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some other points here showing the relation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2.41 Their statue of Isis has a woman's body with horns like a cow's, just as the Hellenes portray Io&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2.42 And since the Egyptians call Zeus by the name of Ammon, it seems to me that the Ammonians also received their name from the appellation of this god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2.43 Moreover, the fact is that the Egyptians did not take the &quot;name of Herakles&quot; from the Hellenes, but that the Hellenes (that is, those Hellenes who established the name of Herakles as the son of Amphitryona) took it from the Egyptians; this can be demonstrated by many proofS, especially by the fact that both parents of Herakles, Amphitryon and Alkmene, were of Egyptian descent&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;NB: Herakles parents are descendants of Perseus which was a descendant of Aigyptos [Αἴγυπτος = Egypt in Greek].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Foreign Greek god&#xD;&#xA;-----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We have a very clear example of a Thracian Goddess (Bendis) included in the Anthenian pantheon during the war of the Peloponnese:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is Richard Farnell notes of her:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Thracian Bendis was probably in origin and character the same as the great mother of Phrygia, and was whorshipped (...) with the same orgiastic rites(...) we also hear of Bendis as the great goddess of Lemnos to whom human victims were offered... The reasons for this association of the greek maidenly goddess with teh Bendis-Hekate-Brimo the patroness of savage magic and terrifying superstition, may have been some external ressemblance of attributes, but also probably, some consanguinity of character. Like Artemis, the Thracian divinity was supposed to ride on bulls; like Artemis, she was a mighty huntress, though her weapon was not the bow, but the spear in each hand.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So basically we see that Bendis was included in the Athenian pantheon of Gods roughly for political reasons namely the alliance with the Thracians. As a Goddess of hunt, dark ritual magic and bulls, Bendis was linked naturally to Hecate - Artemis (note the theme of the moon). Notice that what Plato is talking about, the fact the Athenians were riding with torches in their hands is purely an Artemis ritual.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can read more on that [here][1] where I gave a more complete historical account.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;External mythological elements&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I can also add that Greeks did happily borrowed elements in other mythologies, especially in Mesopotamia.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is for example Odysseus killing the Cyclops, I meant Nergal killing Igidallru:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSTEQcgA_i_A6BsBgdcuYoz22fEjcbl_QMOE7Unfxraglfkow68iQ][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The borrowing of the Greeks there is quite extensive... Here is for example the start of the Hittite song of Kummarbi, that you can parallel with hesiod's Theogony:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For a mere nine years Alalu was king in heaven. In the ninth year Anu gave battle against Alalu and he defeated Alalu. He (Alalu) fled before him and went down to the Dark Earth. Down he went to the Dark Earth, and Anu took his seat on his throne. Anu was sitting on his throne, and weighty Kumarbi was giving him drink. (Kumarbi) was bowing down at his feet and placing in his hand the drinking cups.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For a mere nine years Anu remained king in heaven. In the ninth year Anu gave battle against Kumarbi. Kumarbi, Alalu's offspring, gave battle against Anu. Anu can no longer withstand Kumarbi's eyes. Anu wriggled loose from his (Kumarbi's) hands and fled. He set out for the sky. (But) Kumarbi rushed after him, seized Anu by the feet/legs, and dragged him down from the sky.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Kumarbi) bit his (Anu's) loins, and his &quot;manhood&quot; united with Kumarbi's insides like bronze (results from the union of copper and tin). When Kumarbi had swallowed the &quot;manhood&quot; of Anu, he rejoiced and laughed out loud.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ceremony over the Hellespont&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a ceremony we find in Herodotus VII-54, this ceremony is done by the Achaemenid king Xerxes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then, as the sun was rising, Xerxes poured a libation from a golden cup into the sea as he faced the sun and prayed that nothing unexpected would happen to stop him from subjugating Europe before he reached the very ends of that land. After his prayer, he threw the libation cup into the Hellespont,. along with a golden mixing bowl and a Persian sword, which they call an akinakes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is now the ceremony described by Arrian in his Anabasis (VI-19); at the mouth of the Indus Alexander the Great is doing this ceremony:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then he sacrificed bulls to Poseidon, and cast them into the sea, and after the sacrifice poured a libation and cast into the sea the cup made of gold and golden bowls as thankofferings, praying that Poseidon would safely convoy the naval force he intended to dispatch with Nearchus towards the Persian Gulf.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apart from the minor differences (the presence of a bull and Poseidon specifically named), the ceremony is exactly the same. They both filled a golden cup, pray and threw the whole content of the cup into the &quot;sea&quot;... Alexander being Greek and Xerxes Persian something is weird.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice more amusingly that Alexander will do this over the Hellespont (I.11):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Alexander sacrificed a bull to Poseidon and the Nereids in the midst of the Hellespont strait, and pour[ed] into the sea a drink offering from a golden bowl.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Again same exact ceremony, which tickle to believe Xerxes is doing a Greek ceremony at the Persian sauce. Xerxes is turning toward the sun (basically Ahura-Mazda, the Persian god) during the ceremony.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We can find a clear explanation in Herodotus VII-54:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Having taken complete possession of Athens, Xerxes now sent off a mounted messenger to Artabanos to announce his present success, and the day after sending the messenger, he summoned the exiles from Athens who had accompanied him and ordered them to climb to the Acropolis and sacrifice according to their tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pretty obviously in Xerxes army there was Greeks (don't mention that to Zak Snyder pretty please) and here obviously he rewarded them by having them performing a Greek ceremony inside the Acropolis. Which lead to believe when we compare Xerxes ceremony and Alexander ceremony that Xerxes ceremony over the Hellespont was Greek not Persian (Greek sauce Persian for the obvious presence of Ahura-Mazda).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We can confirm that when we see Cyrus the Great (Cyrus -&gt; Cambyses -&gt; Darius -&gt; Xerxes) restoring the ceremony after conquering Babylon, Cambyses respecting the Gods of Egypt (don't read Herodotus there read the Egyptians).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Evolution of Greek myths&#xD;&#xA;------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did the Greek mythology evolved through time. Indeed, I invite you to read my fairly detailed description of Medusa's evolution from [Homeric time up to Ray Harryhausen][4].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Small conclusion&#xD;&#xA;----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does every of that means that the Antique world is open minded and the Christians world made of intolerants? That would be naive (very). One has to see that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The Antique civilizations communicated without a doubt, we find track of Egyptian stories in India.&#xD;&#xA; - Most of the so called openness in term of religion is hidden by the fact almost every time it is open for political reasons. That is well illustrated by Xerxes Greek ceremony, Cyrus &quot;restoring&quot; the old Babylonian religion, the goddess Bendis suddenly entering the Athenian pantheon. One can illustrate the drawback here. Herodotus mentions that Cyrus' son, Cambyses is &quot;mad&quot; while his other Smerdis is replaced by a &quot;false copy&quot;. A close examination of Egyptian source makes clear that Cambyses followed the general &quot;Acheamenid trend&quot; of keeping the local religion. And all the Smerdis affair is highly smelly. So it seems Darius probably usurped the throne and thus is the true origin of this &quot;degenerated Cyrus' sons&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note also that when we are speaking of the ancient world we are speaking about an incredibly small amount of people. 10/15% among the Greeks was free people. But now let's discuss the rest, made of the women, the slaves, the Lacedaemonians helots, the 2nd/3rd/4th sons (notice that this only the first male heir persisted during the whole Middle Age and the Renaissance), etc. Those had no right at all. When you was part of the 10/15% life was awesome, when not... That is where you have to moderate seriously the so-called openness you can find. It is generally fairly restricted to highly political reasons. When there was no political reasons, Greeks/Mesopotamians/Egyptians/Persians are infamous to slaughter every men, enslave every women and burn down every local cult temples. And by the way, that is not the question here, but Christians shown high openness as well for the same political reasons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2496/are-artemis-and-bendis-the-same/2497#2497&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/EdKWB.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/qJNKe.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1817/could-you-look-at-medusas-head-through-a-distorted-surface/1830#1830" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12136" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2619" RevisionGUID="8d0492da-b2de-4d72-8b2d-51ab416a46cf" CreationDate="2017-09-29T11:03:52.270" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 2774 edit id of 486" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12139" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3016" RevisionGUID="01977cf3-e620-44cb-a9d0-91ad524598fd" CreationDate="2017-09-29T13:48:17.863" UserId="3989" Comment="added 9 characters in body" Text="As Mesopotamia was one of the first places where our species built cities, naturally myth from there has to try to make sense of this new way of life, and characteristically approaches the problem by antithesis. Gilgamesh is the man of the city, and Enkidu, created to be his antithesis, is the man of the wilderness. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gilgamesh responds to the challenge posed by the creation of Enkidu by detailing the harlot Shamhat, a sacred functionary of the temple of Ishtar that is the heart of the city, to citify him. She does this not only by absorbing his animal sexuality in her civilized embrace, but also by feeding him products of settled living: bread and beer. The effect is to contaminate his wildness, to estrange him from his power base in wild nature: afterwards he suffers from more than the normal male post-coital lethargy and his animal brothers shun him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I compare that effect to [the tactic that Heracles used on Antaeus][1]&amp;mdash;holding him elevated in a bear-hug, since the normal wrestler&amp;rsquo;s aim of taking him down to earth would just connect him with his power base, he being by some accounts a son of Gaea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D2%3Achapter%3D5%3Asection%3D11" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12140" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3018" RevisionGUID="6ea07e2c-432f-456d-8720-16225de7a3b7" CreationDate="2017-09-29T13:49:21.447" UserId="2774" Text="There is some consensus regarding Babylon and Mesopotamia on some of them has been pointed out by both Yannis and Brian Donovan. That said the question of Sacred prostitution in Mesopotamia has been quite challenged those past 20 years. The &quot;translation&quot;&#xD;&#xA; of harimtu into sacred prostitute is due to miss Gerda Lerner (a feminist),This translation is... debatable (to say the least), as the way she is implying Shamhat episode demonstrates temple harlots was an accepted institution&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The beginning of the Epic&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the beginning of the text we encounter Gilgamesh who&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; does not leave a girl to her mother&lt;BR&gt; the daughter of the warrior or the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bride of a young man&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Clearly so Gilgamesh is raping every girls... To that the gods are answering by creating a reflect of Gilgamesh Enkidu.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aruru cleaned her hands, she takes some clay, and threw it into the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wild,&lt;BR&gt; In the wild she created the mighty Enkidu&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After being discovered the Harlot Shamhat is sent to tame Enkidu, let see her approach:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Shamhat detached her robe, exposed her sex, and he took her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; voluptuously&lt;BR&gt; She was not restrained but took his energy&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is fairly important to notice here the close parallelism:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Gilgamesh the civilized is sexually harrassing young girls&#xD;&#xA; - Shamhat the harlot is sexually harassing Enkidu&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another thing to notice is the reversal: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In Gilgamesh scene, the sexual assault is perpetrated by the male Gilgamesh&#xD;&#xA; - In Shamhat scene, the sexual assault is perpertrated by the female Shamhat.&#xD;&#xA; - In Gilgamesh scene the females are supposedly pure and innocent while Gilgamesh is depraved&#xD;&#xA; - In Shamhat scene Enkidu is pure and innocent (well savage) while Shamhat is an harlot, a whore, a prostitute&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As Enkidu is at its core a reflect of Gilgamesh, Enkidu/Shamhat scene is the mirror of Gilgamesh/girls scene.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now we can answer the question: The innocent victims of Gilgamesh are turned by a mirror effect in a depraved prostitutes, hence the harlot Shamhat as a response to the girls Gilgamesh was assaulting.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wild vs Savage&#xD;&#xA;--------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On common explanation of this part is Enkidu represents the wild, while Gilgamesh the civilized... Let's twist the neck of that thing. After Enkidu has been tamed by Shamhat he goes with her in Uruk, and this is what happens:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Gilgamesh] will have sex with the promised, he first, then the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; husband.&lt;BR&gt; ...&lt;BR&gt; At the young man's speech, Enkidu become angered&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice here we are confronted to a new reversal:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The *civilised* Gilgamesh is acting like a wild beast taking every women first, and clearly it is stated that the civilized people are not truly liking it, while doing nothing&#xD;&#xA; - The *savage* Enkidu is reacting instantly and does the right thing going to fight Gilgamesh&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Once again observe here the reverse situation: the civilized appears to act like a prank while the savage is acting righteously, and he is the only one doing so (which clearly indicate the sense of this is certainly not the &quot;civilized Gilgamesh accepting the wild Enkidu&quot;. Gilgamesh is a prank, and he is througout the Epic)&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Shamhat&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;Let's return to the figure of Shamhat. There is a serie of named woman in the Epic:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The harlot Shamhat&#xD;&#xA; - The tavern keeper Siduri &#xD;&#xA; - The goddess Ishtar&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And there is a serie of faintly unammed one:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The wife of the scorpion-man&#xD;&#xA; - The wife of the wise Uta-naphistim&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which illustrates enough the importance of Shamhat, let's examine her:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;after having tamed enkidu, she tells him:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; You are beautiful, o enkidu, you are like a god&lt;BR&gt; Why do you roam in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the wild with the wild beast&lt;BR&gt; Come, let me bring you into Uruk,&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ... The city of Gilgamesh who is wise&lt;BR&gt; but who uses his power over&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his people like a wild bull&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice the wild bull used later as the Mighty Great Bull of Heaven. See also Shamhat kindness, especially for the people of Uruk (who are sending her to a potential death, may I notice). &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now let's take a look at this:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They placed some food in front of [Enkidu]&lt;BR&gt; They placed some beer in front&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of him&lt;BR&gt; ...&lt;BR&gt; The harlot spoke tho Enkidu:&lt;BR&gt; Eat the food,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Enkidu, it is the way here,&lt;BR&gt; drink the beer as it is the custom in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the land&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And with have that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Shamhat removes her clothing,&lt;BR&gt; and clothed [Enkidu] with one&#xD;&#xA;&gt; piece&lt;BR&gt; While she clothes herself with the second one&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the example I gave Shamhat is acting like a mother educating Enkidu, teaching him to eat, to drink, to socialize, and going as much as sharing her own outfit. From the harlot we got, we have a motherly figure, and notice the education she is giving to Enkidu is good because he will then act righteously... Compare with Enkidu's true mother Aruru&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;What you have here is a piece of reversal where each social conventions are taken upside down:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Gilgamesh is an idiot&#xD;&#xA; - Enkidu a wild beast&#xD;&#xA; - Shamhat an harlot&#xD;&#xA;Still at the end:&#xD;&#xA; - shamhat appears as a tremendeous mother&#xD;&#xA; - Enkidu is a good guy&#xD;&#xA; - Gilgamesh is still an idiot&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice also, except his mother, Gilgamesh only embrace, kiss, hold one another character: Enkidu, which always leads to believe their relationship is of homosexual nature (Jacobsen noticed in its days : &quot;throughout the Epic, the relationship with Enkidu replaces marriage&quot;, another safe reading also Anne Kilmer noticed the used of Akkadian words pukku, mekku to emphasize this).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would like to talk here of the original text and especially some of the terms used:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The trapper to Shamhat: I - 80: anu ú shamhat rummi kirimmiki &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;the term used: rummi kirimiki is quite hard to translate, kirimmu is meaning: *crook of arm, as protection to child* (Concise dictionnary of akkadian)&#xD;&#xA;So  a basic translation could be:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Here he is Shamhat, open your arms&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;BUT rummi Kirimmiki is so intertwinned with a mother holding her child.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Notice than when we are introduced to Shamhat we learn she is an harlot (Harimtu in akkadian), then we see her turning into a fairly loving and dedicated mother, before in tablet 2 turning into a wise councelor, fairly similar to Ninsun (II-67/68 milkum sha shinnishtim imtaqut ana libbishu = the councel of the woman [Shamhat] struck him deeply). Do I have to notice the science of the poet who is putting the little *epic of Shamhat* (a mere whore of no importance sent to tame a wild man, and becoming a loving caring mother), inside the bigger *Epic of Gilgamesh* (a bad king going into a vain Epic and coming back with high knowledge... the first words of the Epic are *Sha nagba imuru*, where nagbum means, source of water, whole, entirety (CDA), so either, he who saw the deep, or he who saw the source, or he who got wisdom).&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;One of the key to understand the Epic is seeing the constant reversals used throughout the Epic, later on you have THE reversal, in tablet VI with the Ishtar episode (so often misunderstood as Ishtar being bitchslapped, as Aphrodite's scene btw), and toward the end the ultimate reversal with Enkidu closing the Epic. In the Epic the role are inversed, the wild men are teaching the civilized men, the harlots are the best mothers possible, Enkidu becomes an obvious lover.&lt;BR&gt; &#xD;&#xA;Truth also is Shamhat episode with this whore becoming the lover then mother of Enkidu is... quite distrubing at its core, looking a lot like Jocaste (much more than a society encouraging public sacred prostitution).&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12142" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3019" RevisionGUID="87c2ee2f-79d0-425f-9df0-00437e5f9282" CreationDate="2017-09-29T22:30:32.177" UserId="3230" Text="During Ragnarok, Fenrir the wolf kills Odin and is then killed by Vidar. The Midgard Serpent Jormungandand and Thor kill each other. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What role does Hel, Loki's other child by Angrboda, play?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12143" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3019" RevisionGUID="87c2ee2f-79d0-425f-9df0-00437e5f9282" CreationDate="2017-09-29T22:30:32.177" UserId="3230" Text="Does Hel have a role in Ragnarok?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12144" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3019" RevisionGUID="87c2ee2f-79d0-425f-9df0-00437e5f9282" CreationDate="2017-09-29T22:30:32.177" UserId="3230" Text="|norse|ragnarok|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12145" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="906" RevisionGUID="d971a5d4-4497-4154-89b8-1b8c5ed3fa8b" CreationDate="2017-09-29T23:26:34.867" UserId="398" Comment="added 6 characters in body" Text="Nereus was a fish-tailed deity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anything needed to be said about Nereus is nicely expressed in this [link][1], but I'll sum up some things. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That Nereus is a sea-god of some antiquity is noted by the familiarity in which he appears in Hesiod, though that particular name might be later. In Homer, he is named instead something like &quot;The Old Man of the Sea.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He wasn't always depicted half-fish, though. The earliest depiction we have of him does (a cup made ca. 520), but contemporary pottery (late 500s/early 400s) also portrays him human-like. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Romero Recio and B. Kowalzig connect him to archaic maritime divinities that sprang up following Greek overseas expansion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Nereus.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12150" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3020" RevisionGUID="1436713a-0660-474e-ab39-b1f81f14d566" CreationDate="2017-09-30T12:14:42.063" UserId="4105" Text="What happens to [dryads](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dryad), the tree nymphs of Greek mythology,  when their tree is cut down, burned or otherwise destroyed? Do they die or do they move on to a new tree?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12151" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3020" RevisionGUID="1436713a-0660-474e-ab39-b1f81f14d566" CreationDate="2017-09-30T12:14:42.063" UserId="4105" Text="What happens to dryads when their tree is destroyed?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12152" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3020" RevisionGUID="1436713a-0660-474e-ab39-b1f81f14d566" CreationDate="2017-09-30T12:14:42.063" UserId="4105" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12157" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3021" RevisionGUID="c9e8cc60-5818-459e-8fcf-91db749c54e9" CreationDate="2017-09-30T12:58:06.610" UserId="57" Text="According to the tale of [Erysichthon of Thessaly][1] and his daughter Mestra - as relayed by Ovid - dryads do not survive the destruction of their tree:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But Erysichthon, heedless of all things,  &#xD;&#xA;ordered his slaves to fell the sacred oak,  &#xD;&#xA;and as they hesitated, in a rage  &#xD;&#xA;the wretch snatched from the hand of one an axe,  &#xD;&#xA;and said, “If this should be the only oak  &#xD;&#xA;loved by the goddess of this very grove,  &#xD;&#xA;or even were the goddess in this tree,  &#xD;&#xA;I'll level to the ground its leafy head.”  &#xD;&#xA;So boasted he, and while he swung on high  &#xD;&#xA;his axe to strike a slanting blow, the oak  &#xD;&#xA;beloved of Ceres, uttered a deep groan  &#xD;&#xA;and shuddered. Instantly its dark green leaves  &#xD;&#xA;turned pale, and all its acorns lost their green,  &#xD;&#xA;and even its long branches drooped their arms.  &#xD;&#xA;But when his impious hand had struck the trunk,  &#xD;&#xA;and cut its bark, red blood poured from the wound,—  &#xD;&#xA;as when a weighty sacrificial bull  &#xD;&#xA;has fallen at the altar, streaming blood  &#xD;&#xA;spouts from his stricken neck. All were amazed.  &#xD;&#xA;And one of his attendants boldly tried  &#xD;&#xA;to stay his cruel axe, and hindered him;  &#xD;&#xA;but Erysichthon, fixing his stern eyes  &#xD;&#xA;upon him, said, “Let this, then, be the price  &#xD;&#xA;of all your pious worship!” So he turned  &#xD;&#xA;the poised axe from the tree, and clove his head  &#xD;&#xA;sheer from his body, and again began  &#xD;&#xA;to chop the hard oak. From the heart of it  &#xD;&#xA;these words were uttered; “Covered by the bark  &#xD;&#xA;of this oak tree I long have dwelt a Nymph,  &#xD;&#xA;beloved of Ceres, and before my death  &#xD;&#xA;it has been granted me to prophesy,  &#xD;&#xA;that I may die contented. Punishment  &#xD;&#xA;for this vile deed stands waiting at your side.”  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Ovid. Metamorphoses. Brookes More. Boston. Cornhill Publishing Co. 1922.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erysichthon_of_Thessaly&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12159" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1594" RevisionGUID="f6b6778d-6dc4-451b-a7f6-2fd956b3191a" CreationDate="2017-09-30T14:05:09.857" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|nymphs|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12160" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1066" RevisionGUID="765f65cd-cf14-4e4d-a773-1b01cad38296" CreationDate="2017-09-30T14:05:12.067" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|comparative|water|nymphs|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12161" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3020" RevisionGUID="24dbb4a5-d05e-4cbd-a977-baabd6d466c1" CreationDate="2017-09-30T14:05:14.173" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|nymphs|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12162" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2117" RevisionGUID="ff4b911c-1e71-43dd-86cc-e8ea5905d6e8" CreationDate="2017-09-30T20:20:01.480" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="12163" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3022" RevisionGUID="5d9ad803-7f2c-4e88-8aed-6de320a1b1be" CreationDate="2017-09-30T21:36:05.610" UserDisplayName="user1079" Text="Brian Blount (&lt;i&gt;Revelation: A Commentary&lt;/i&gt;, 225) summarizes the array of interpretations:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;Some connect her with figures in Israel's or the church's past or future: Eve, the mother whose seed would bruise the head of the dragon/serpent (Gen 3:1-16); Mary, the mother of Jesus; or the heavenly Jerusalem as bride of the Lamb (19:7-8; 29:9-10). Others suppose a pagan or astrological connection: a queen of heaven like the Egyptian Isis, or the constellation Virgo. Still others hypothesize a corporate representation of God's people: Israel, who escapes the dragon/Pharaoh into the wilderness on wing os feagles (Exod 19:4; cf. Ps 74:12-15); or Zion, the mother of the persecuted people of God (Isa 66:7-9; &lt;i&gt;4 Ezra&lt;/i&gt; 13.32-28).&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In my &lt;a href=&quot;https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2808/1079&quot;&gt;answers&lt;/a&gt; to a &lt;a href=&quot;https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2957/1079&quot;&gt;few&lt;/a&gt; other &lt;a href=&quot;https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2945/1079&quot;&gt;questions&lt;/a&gt;, I've pointed to the way the author of the Revelation borrows and adapts symbols, scenes, and idioms primarily from the Hebrew bible to form his book.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The symbols surrounding the woman come from a swath of texts in the Hebrew bible, but the connection between all of them is they are all concerned with Israel, Judah, or Jerusalem/Zion. Breaking down the individual symbols in Revelation 12:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;A great portent appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The specification of the stars as twelve in number brings us to Genesis 37.1-11. The final third of Genesis tells the story of Jacob (a.k.a. Israel) and his twelve sons, forefathers of the twelve tribes of Israel.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Genesis 37.1-11 specifically has one of the younger sons, Joseph, describe a dream he had: he saw a sun, a moon, and eleven stars bowing down to him. His family immediately recognized that the sun was his father (Jacob/Israel), the moon his mother, and the eleven stars his brothers. The implication that Joseph is a twelfth star was taken for granted by the first century; cf. Philo, &lt;i&gt;On Dreams&lt;/i&gt; 2.113: &lt;i&gt;he who saw this heaven-sent vision, thought that he was being worshiped by eleven stars, ranking himself among them as the twelfth&lt;/i&gt;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The woman in Revelation 12 is wrapped in the symbols from Joseph's dream which were intended to represent Israel and all its people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pangs, in the agony of giving birth.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Prophetic texts sometimes symbolize Israel, Judah, or Jerusalem/Zion as a woman suffering birth pains during periods of crisis or social upheaval. Examples include Isaiah 26.1,17-18 and 66.7-11, or Jeremiah 4.31. The revelator adapts this motif and specifically identifies her offspring as the messiah (combining imagery from Psalm 2 and Psalm 110).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;Then another portent appeared in heaven: a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The revelator borrows this from Daniel 8, another symbolic vision and combines it with the earlier use of Gen 37.1-11. In Daniel 8, the titular sage has a vision of a goat's horn throwing down stars and trampling them (Dan 8.9-10). An angel explains to Daniel that this vision symbolizes persecution befalling 'the people of the holy ones' (8.24), i.e. Torah-faithful Israelites.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, so that there she can be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days. [...] the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle, so that she could fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to her place where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here the revelator borrows very directly from Exodus 19.3-4: &lt;i&gt;'Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the Israelites: You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself.'&lt;/i&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;'One thousand two hundred sixty days' is three and a half years according to the Hebrew calendar, rendered a second time idiomatically as 'time and times and half a time' (i.e. one and two and one-half). This comes from Daniel 7, though John reverses its meaning; originally it signified the period of persecution Torah-faithful Israelites would suffer (the same one mentioned in Dan 8), but John here uses it to signify a period in which Israel will remain protected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Somewhat complicating the whole matter is John's adaptation of the Combat Myth that permeated Indo-European mythologies (see this [answer](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2808/1079)). In particular, the revelator appears to have borrowed from a version of the Combat Myth well-known in the Asia region: the story of Apollo and Python.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The New Oxford Annotated New Testament comments:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;The vision of the woman, the child, and the dragon is rich in symbolism drawn from the mythological traditions found in ancient Babylonia, Egypt, Greece, and Rome, as well as in the Hebrew Bible. One well-known version of the story tells of the goddess Leto, pregnant with Apollo, who is menaced by the dragon Python, who pursues her because he knows that Apollo is destined to kill him (Hyginus, &lt;i&gt;Fabulae&lt;/i&gt; 140).&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Jewish Annotated New Testament:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;The motif of the pregnant woman chased by the dragon, here and in vv.13-17, recalls the story of Leto (and her child, Apollo), pursued by Python. It is not surprising that a Jewish author from Asia Minor might draw out a vision rooted in prophetic oracles by means of regional mythology.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And GK Beale's commentary, &lt;i&gt;The Book of Revelation&lt;/i&gt;, 624:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;The version of this story best known in Asia Minor was that of the goddess Leto who was pregnant with Apollo, the son of Zeus. She was attacked by the dragon, Python, because he knew that her offspring had been appointed to kill him. But she was carried to a safe island by winds sent by Zeus. The god Poseidon hid the island under the water sot hat Python could not find the woman and her child. Four days after Apollo was born, he found the dragon and slew it.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other words, John borrowed the specific shape of the Combat Myth as seen in the Apollo vs. Python story and replaced its 'pagan' elements with symbols assembled from throughout the Hebrew bible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;h3&gt;Conclusion&lt;/h3&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The broad consensus of critical scholarship is the woman represents &lt;b&gt;Israel&lt;/b&gt;." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12164" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="2961" RevisionGUID="046331da-4736-4be3-a14b-b26f3b38110b" CreationDate="2017-09-30T22:21:40.713" UserId="-1" Comment="56" />
  <row Id="12166" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3023" RevisionGUID="960aff32-b645-482e-b9cf-e62df3f6c4f6" CreationDate="2017-10-01T03:19:24.960" UserId="3244" Text="The *Loka*s in Hinduism are one such. However, there is one problem: Hindu Mythology came from different timeperiods. So, there are multiple explanations for, or versions of, the same thing. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In one version, there is the very simple system of H-E-H, with the Realm of the Gods being *Swarga*, the Realm of Humans as *Prithvi*/*Dharti*/OtherEarthSynonym, and the Realm of Demons as *Narka*/*Naraka*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, even in this theme, there is not much mention of Hierarchy. They are more like Three adjacent kingdoms, with the Gods and Demons fighting regularly, and Earth as neutral.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In another, more complicated, and in my opinion, better, version, there are multiple layers. As in, a large amount. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - At first, on top, we have *Vaikuntha*, the Realm of Vishnu, 'Where one is free of all desires.'&#xD;&#xA; - Then we have *Sataloka*, the Realm of Truth.&#xD;&#xA; - There are six others, whose names or qualities I do not remember, but are related with other virtues.&#xD;&#xA; - Then, on top of the highest layer of clouds, is *Swarga*, the Realm of Indra, 'Where all desires are fulfilled.'&#xD;&#xA; - In between is Earth/*Dharti*/*Prithvi*.&#xD;&#xA; - Below the surface of the Earth is *Nagaloka*, the Realm of Snakes.&#xD;&#xA; - Then comes *Patala*, the Abode of Demons, where all Asuras, Rakshasas, etc. live.&#xD;&#xA; - Then we have *Narka*/*Naraka*, where go the souls of the damned. &#xD;&#xA;Here are many divisions. In addition to the temporary-stay-torment-only normal hells, there is the *Pitr*, where dead ancestors are hung upside down until rebirth. There are some versions with 9 Hells, some with as many as 28. Here is also the abode of Yama.&#xD;&#xA; - Below the Cosmos is the Ocean.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;{I have to travel right now, so I can not add links. I would be grateful if someone did.}" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12168" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1838" RevisionGUID="20eadaf8-7caa-4146-b025-636b795ea649" CreationDate="2017-10-01T14:04:27.823" UserId="4105" Comment="corrected spelling, fixed grammar, improved formatting" Text="Gilgamesh was a recurring character in Mesopotamian myths/stories. The most renown of those stories is the Epic of Gilgamesh where those numbers appears. But he and his slave/servant/friend/buddy/lover Enkidu are in numerous other stories. And in none other those funny proportions are mentioned.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is also good to be aware that the Epic comes to us in various versions. There is no (right now) any complete version of the myth per se. It is just a reconstruction from different tablets.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now the Epic does not give any rational explanation about the proportion. Just remind it is barely a detail trying to make clear Gilgamesh is far beyond any normal human being. As long as it is striking you enough as being &quot;totally abnormal&quot; the one who wrote it did succeed." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12169" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1838" RevisionGUID="20eadaf8-7caa-4146-b025-636b795ea649" CreationDate="2017-10-01T14:04:27.823" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 2774 edit id of 490" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12170" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3022" RevisionGUID="739e6787-676c-4314-b02e-a51e51f0bd09" CreationDate="2017-10-01T15:10:51.397" UserDisplayName="user1079" Comment="Typo." Text="Brian Blount (&lt;i&gt;Revelation: A Commentary&lt;/i&gt;, 225) summarizes the array of interpretations:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;Some connect her with figures in Israel's or the church's past or future: Eve, the mother whose seed would bruise the head of the dragon/serpent (Gen 3:1-16); Mary, the mother of Jesus; or the heavenly Jerusalem as bride of the Lamb (19:7-8; 29:9-10). Others suppose a pagan or astrological connection: a queen of heaven like the Egyptian Isis, or the constellation Virgo. Still others hypothesize a corporate representation of God's people: Israel, who escapes the dragon/Pharaoh into the wilderness on wing os feagles (Exod 19:4; cf. Ps 74:12-15); or Zion, the mother of the persecuted people of God (Isa 66:7-9; &lt;i&gt;4 Ezra&lt;/i&gt; 13.32-28).&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In my &lt;a href=&quot;https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2808/1079&quot;&gt;answers&lt;/a&gt; to a &lt;a href=&quot;https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2957/1079&quot;&gt;few&lt;/a&gt; other &lt;a href=&quot;https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2945/1079&quot;&gt;questions&lt;/a&gt;, I've pointed to the way the author of the Revelation borrows and adapts symbols, scenes, and idioms primarily from the Hebrew bible to form his book.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The symbols surrounding the woman come from a swath of texts in the Hebrew bible, but the connection between all of them is they are all concerned with Israel, Judah, or Jerusalem/Zion. Breaking down the individual symbols in Revelation 12:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;A great portent appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The specification of the stars as twelve in number brings us to Genesis 37.1-11. The final third of Genesis tells the story of Jacob (a.k.a. Israel) and his twelve sons, forefathers of the twelve tribes of Israel.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Genesis 37.1-11 specifically has one of the younger sons, Joseph, describe a dream he had: he saw a sun, a moon, and eleven stars bowing down to him. His family immediately recognized that the sun was his father (Jacob/Israel), the moon his mother, and the eleven stars his brothers. The implication that Joseph is a twelfth star was taken for granted by the first century; cf. Philo, &lt;i&gt;On Dreams&lt;/i&gt; 2.113: &lt;i&gt;he who saw this heaven-sent vision, thought that he was being worshiped by eleven stars, ranking himself among them as the twelfth&lt;/i&gt;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The woman in Revelation 12 is wrapped in the symbols from Joseph's dream which were intended to represent Israel and all its people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pangs, in the agony of giving birth.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Prophetic texts sometimes symbolize Israel, Judah, or Jerusalem/Zion as a woman suffering birth pains during periods of crisis or social upheaval. Examples include Isaiah 26.1,17-18 and 66.7-11, or Jeremiah 4.31. The revelator adapts this motif and specifically identifies her offspring as the messiah (combining imagery from Psalm 2 and Psalm 110).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;Then another portent appeared in heaven: a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The revelator borrows this from Daniel 8, another symbolic vision and combines it with the earlier use of Gen 37.1-11. In Daniel 8, the titular sage has a vision of a goat's horn throwing down stars and trampling them (Dan 8.9-10). An angel explains to Daniel that this vision symbolizes persecution befalling 'the people of the holy ones' (8.24), i.e. Torah-faithful Israelites.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, so that there she can be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days. [...] the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle, so that she could fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to her place where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here the revelator borrows very directly from Exodus 19.3-4: &lt;i&gt;'Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the Israelites: You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself.'&lt;/i&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;'One thousand two hundred sixty days' is three and a half years according to the Hebrew calendar, rendered a second time idiomatically as 'time and times and half a time' (i.e. one and two and one-half). This comes from Daniel 7, though John reverses its meaning; originally it signified the period of persecution Torah-faithful Israelites would suffer (the same one mentioned in Dan 8), but John here uses it to signify a period in which Israel will remain protected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Somewhat complicating the whole matter is John's adaptation of the Combat Myth that permeated Indo-European mythologies (see this [answer](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2808/1079)). In particular, the revelator appears to have borrowed from a version of the Combat Myth well-known in the Asia region: the story of Apollo and Python.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The New Oxford Annotated New Testament comments:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;The vision of the woman, the child, and the dragon is rich in symbolism drawn from the mythological traditions found in ancient Babylonia, Egypt, Greece, and Rome, as well as in the Hebrew Bible. One well-known version of the story tells of the goddess Leto, pregnant with Apollo, who is menaced by the dragon Python, who pursues her because he knows that Apollo is destined to kill him (Hyginus, &lt;i&gt;Fabulae&lt;/i&gt; 140).&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Jewish Annotated New Testament:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;The motif of the pregnant woman chased by the dragon, here and in vv.13-17, recalls the story of Leto (and her child, Apollo), pursued by Python. It is not surprising that a Jewish author from Asia Minor might draw out a vision rooted in prophetic oracles by means of regional mythology.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And GK Beale's commentary, &lt;i&gt;The Book of Revelation&lt;/i&gt;, 624:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;The version of this story best known in Asia Minor was that of the goddess Leto who was pregnant with Apollo, the son of Zeus. She was attacked by the dragon, Python, because he knew that her offspring had been appointed to kill him. But she was carried to a safe island by winds sent by Zeus. The god Poseidon hid the island under the water so that Python could not find the woman and her child. Four days after Apollo was born, he found the dragon and slew it.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other words, John borrowed the specific shape of the Combat Myth as seen in the Apollo vs. Python story and replaced its 'pagan' elements with symbols assembled from throughout the Hebrew bible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;h3&gt;Conclusion&lt;/h3&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The broad consensus of critical scholarship is the woman represents &lt;b&gt;Israel&lt;/b&gt;." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12171" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3024" RevisionGUID="20ab052b-d96b-4f9a-a466-ad404c3445e3" CreationDate="2017-10-01T16:03:00.587" UserId="292" Text="None, as far as we know. She is not mentioned at all in either the poem *Voluspa*, which describes the event of Ragnarok, nor in Snorri's version of events in the *Prose Edda*. All he says is that when Loki arrives at the battle-field of Vigrid, he will have &quot;all Hel's people with him&quot;. (Faulkes: 51)  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;After the Ragnarok, &quot;Balder and Hod will arrive from Hel&quot;, where they were both living since their deaths earlier in the mythology. (Faulkes: 56) Snorri also says that there will be places for good and bad people after Ragnarok, the bad one being at Nastrands. Whether Hel will occupy it, or whether she died, is unknown.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;(I'm quoting from Anthony Faulkes' translation of the Prose Edda. You can find a [PDF version here][1], or you can see another translation at [Sacred Sites][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://vsnrweb-publications.org.uk/EDDArestr.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre04.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12172" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3024" RevisionGUID="0a3a707a-202a-4503-8612-884339468dba" CreationDate="2017-10-01T16:04:28.507" UserId="57" Comment="edited body" Text="None, as far as we know. She is not mentioned at all in either the poem *Voluspa*, which describes the event of Ragnarok, nor in Snorri's version of events in the *Prose Edda*. All he says is that when Loki arrives at the battle-field of Vigrid, he will have &quot;all Hel's people with him&quot;. (Faulkes: 51)  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;After the Ragnarok, &quot;Balder and Hod will arrive from Hel&quot;, where they were both living since their deaths earlier in the mythology. (Faulkes: 56) Snorri also says that there will be places for good and bad people after Ragnarok, the bad one being at Nastrands. Whether Hel will occupy it, or whether she died, is unknown.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;(I'm quoting from Anthony Faulkes' translation of the Prose Edda. You can find a [PDF version here][1], or you can see another translation at [Sacred Texts][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://vsnrweb-publications.org.uk/EDDArestr.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre04.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12173" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3018" RevisionGUID="7ffc16dd-f44f-4f60-8eb7-d68629cc53c4" CreationDate="2017-10-01T16:05:10.650" UserId="4105" Comment="corrected spelling, fixed grammar, improved formatting" Text="There is some consensus regarding Babylon and Mesopotamia on some of them has been pointed out by both Yannis and Brian Donovan. That said the question of Sacred prostitution in Mesopotamia has been quite challenged those past 20 years. The &quot;translation&quot; of harimtu into sacred prostitute is due to miss Gerda Lerner (a feminist),This translation is... debatable (to say the least), as the way she is implying Shamhat episode demonstrates temple harlots was an accepted institution.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The beginning of the Epic&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the beginning of the text we encounter Gilgamesh who&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; does not leave a girl to her mother  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; the daughter of the warrior or the bride of a young man&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Clearly so Gilgamesh is raping every girls... To that the gods are answering by creating a reflect of Gilgamesh Enkidu.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aruru cleaned her hands, she takes some clay, and threw it into the wild,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the wild she created the mighty Enkidu&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After being discovered the Harlot Shamhat is sent to tame Enkidu, let see her approach:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Shamhat detached her robe, exposed her sex, and he took her voluptuously  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; She was not restrained but took his energy&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is fairly important to notice here the close parallelism:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Gilgamesh the civilized is sexually harassing young girls&#xD;&#xA; - Shamhat the harlot is sexually harassing Enkidu&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another thing to notice is the reversal: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In Gilgamesh scene, the sexual assault is perpetrated by the male Gilgamesh&#xD;&#xA; - In Shamhat scene, the sexual assault is perpetrated by the female Shamhat.&#xD;&#xA; - In Gilgamesh scene the females are supposedly pure and innocent while Gilgamesh is depraved&#xD;&#xA; - In Shamhat scene Enkidu is pure and innocent (well savage) while Shamhat is an harlot, a whore, a prostitute&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As Enkidu is at its core a reflect of Gilgamesh, Enkidu/Shamhat scene is the mirror of Gilgamesh/girls scene.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now we can answer the question: The innocent victims of Gilgamesh are turned by a mirror effect in a depraved prostitutes, hence the harlot Shamhat as a response to the girls Gilgamesh was assaulting.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wild vs Savage&#xD;&#xA;--------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On common explanation of this part is Enkidu represents the wild, while Gilgamesh the civilized... Let's twist the neck of that thing. After Enkidu has been tamed by Shamhat he goes with her in Uruk, and this is what happens:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Gilgamesh] will have sex with the promised, he first, then the husband.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; At the young man's speech, Enkidu become angered&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice here we are confronted to a new reversal:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The *civilized* Gilgamesh is acting like a wild beast taking every women first, and clearly it is stated that the civilized people are not truly liking it, while doing nothing&#xD;&#xA; - The *savage* Enkidu is reacting instantly and does the right thing going to fight Gilgamesh&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Once again observe here the reverse situation: the civilized appears to act like a prank while the savage is acting righteously, and he is the only one doing so (which clearly indicate the sense of this is certainly not the &quot;civilized Gilgamesh accepting the wild Enkidu&quot;. Gilgamesh is a prank, and he is throughout the Epic)&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Shamhat&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;Let's return to the figure of Shamhat. There is a series of named women in the Epic:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The harlot Shamhat&#xD;&#xA; - The tavern keeper Siduri &#xD;&#xA; - The goddess Ishtar&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And there is a series of faintly unnamed ones:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The wife of the scorpion-man&#xD;&#xA; - The wife of the wise Uta-naphistim&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which illustrates enough the importance of Shamhat, let's examine her:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;after having tamed Enkidu, she tells him:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; You are beautiful, o Enkidu, you are like a god  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Why do you roam in the wild with the wild beast  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Come, let me bring you into Uruk,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The city of Gilgamesh who is wise  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; but who uses his power over his people like a wild bull&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice the wild bull used later as the Mighty Great Bull of Heaven. See also Shamhat kindness, especially for the people of Uruk (who are sending her to a potential death, may I notice). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now let's take a look at this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They placed some food in front of [Enkidu]  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; They placed some beer in front of him  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The harlot spoke tho Enkidu:  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eat the food, Enkidu, it is the way here,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; drink the beer as it is the custom in the land&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And with have that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Shamhat removes her clothing,&lt;BR&gt; and clothed [Enkidu] with one piece  &gt; While she clothes herself with the second one&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the example I gave Shamhat is acting like a mother educating Enkidu, teaching him to eat, to drink, to socialize, and going as much as sharing her own outfit. From the harlot we got, we have a motherly figure, and notice the education she is giving to Enkidu is good because he will then act righteously... Compare with Enkidu's true mother Aruru.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What you have here is a piece of reversal where each social conventions are taken upside down:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Gilgamesh is an idiot&#xD;&#xA; - Enkidu a wild beast&#xD;&#xA; - Shamhat an harlot&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Still at the end:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - shamhat appears as a tremendous mother&#xD;&#xA; - Enkidu is a good guy&#xD;&#xA; - Gilgamesh is still an idiot&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice also, except his mother, Gilgamesh only embrace, kiss, hold one another character: Enkidu, which always leads to believe their relationship is of homosexual nature (Jacobsen noticed in its days: &quot;throughout the Epic, the relationship with Enkidu replaces marriage&quot;, another safe reading also Anne Kilmer noticed the used of Akkadian words pukku, mekku to emphasize this).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would like to talk here of the original text and especially some of the terms used:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The trapper to Shamhat: I - 80: anu ú shamhat rummi kirimmiki &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;the term used: rummi kirimiki is quite hard to translate, kirimmu is meaning: *crook of arm, as protection to child* (Concise dictionnary of akkadian) So  a basic translation could be:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Here he is Shamhat, open your arms&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;BUT rummi Kirimmiki is so intertwinned with a mother holding her child.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice than when we are introduced to Shamhat we learn she is an harlot (Harimtu in akkadian), then we see her turning into a fairly loving and dedicated mother, before in tablet 2 turning into a wise councelor, fairly similar to Ninsun (II-67/68 milkum sha shinnishtim imtaqut ana libbishu = the councel of the woman [Shamhat] struck him deeply). Do I have to notice the science of the poet who is putting the little *epic of Shamhat* (a mere whore of no importance sent to tame a wild man, and becoming a loving caring mother), inside the bigger *Epic of Gilgamesh* (a bad king going into a vain Epic and coming back with high knowledge... the first words of the Epic are *Sha nagba imuru*, where nagbum means, source of water, whole, entirety (CDA), so either, he who saw the deep, or he who saw the source, or he who got wisdom).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the key to understand the Epic is seeing the constant reversals used throughout the Epic, later on you have THE reversal, in tablet VI with the Ishtar episode (so often misunderstood as Ishtar being bitch-slapped, as Aphrodite's scene by the way), and toward the end the ultimate reversal with Enkidu closing the Epic. In the Epic the role are inversed, the wild men are teaching the civilized men, the harlots are the best mothers possible, Enkidu becomes an obvious lover.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Truth also is Shamhat episode with this whore becoming the lover then mother of Enkidu is... quite disturbing at its core, looking a lot like Jocasta (much more than a society encouraging public sacred prostitution)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12174" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3018" RevisionGUID="7ffc16dd-f44f-4f60-8eb7-d68629cc53c4" CreationDate="2017-10-01T16:05:10.650" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 57 edit id of 489" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12177" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3025" RevisionGUID="22419909-7d1a-4d24-b838-faec3123e808" CreationDate="2017-10-02T08:49:18.153" UserId="57" Text="In *The Mountain Chant: A Navajo Ceremony*, Washington Matthews describes the construction of a Navajo sweat lodge:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At dawn the old man woke them and said: &quot;Go out, my children, and build a sweat-house, and make a fire to heat stones for the bath, and build the sweat-house only as I will tell you. Make the frame of four different kinds of wood. Put kaç (juniper) in the cast, tse`isçázi (mountain mahogany) in the south, ¢estsìn (piñon) in the west, and awètsal (cliff rose) in the north; join them together at the top and cover them with any shrubs you choose. Get two small forked sticks, the length of the forearm, to pass the hot stones into the sweat-house, and one long stick to poke the stones out of the fire, and let all these sticks be such as have their bark abraded by the antlers of the deer. Take of all the plants on which the deer most like to browse and spread them on the floor of the sweat-house, that we may sit on them.&quot; So they built the lodge as he directed, and lit the fire and heated the stones.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Source: The Mountain Chant: A Navajo Ceremony. Washington Matthews. 1887.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why must the frame consist of these four specific kinds of wood? How is their orientation important? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12178" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3025" RevisionGUID="22419909-7d1a-4d24-b838-faec3123e808" CreationDate="2017-10-02T08:49:18.153" UserId="57" Text="What is the significance of the kinds of wood used in sweat lodges?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12179" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3025" RevisionGUID="22419909-7d1a-4d24-b838-faec3123e808" CreationDate="2017-10-02T08:49:18.153" UserId="57" Text="|native-american|navajo|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12180" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2853" RevisionGUID="efb145b4-4119-4b72-81f3-740ced4abf97" CreationDate="2017-10-02T12:47:20.547" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="12181" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2477" RevisionGUID="335e740a-b065-424d-a14a-6f6065b778b2" CreationDate="2017-10-02T12:56:53.380" UserId="57" Comment="added 19 characters in body" Text="It's not magical, but the Svartálfar is also made Sif's hair.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From Faulkes' translation&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; (via [Wikipedia][1]): &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In chapter 96, a myth explaining *Skíðblaðnir's* creation is provided. The chapter details that the god Loki once cut off the goddess's Sif's hair in an act of mischief. Sif's husband, Thor, enraged, found Loki, caught hold of him, and threatened to break every last bone in his body. Loki promises to have the Svartálfar make Sif a new head of hair that will grow just as any other. Loki goes to the dwarfs known as Ivaldi's sons, and they made not only Sif a new head of gold hair but also Skíðblaðnir and the spear Gungnir.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; Faulkes, Anthony (Trans.) (1995). Edda. Everyman.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sk%C3%AD%C3%B0bla%C3%B0nir" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12183" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="891" RevisionGUID="80966ff5-eb3f-4a78-bd6c-e507a3c463f6" CreationDate="2017-10-03T07:20:48.530" UserId="57" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="&gt; **Dynamic**: I could also imagine that the stories were more naturally developed, like an on-going ad hoc collection of stories. A scenario where anyone could just make up a myth/god and where the popular ones got picked up and written down?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The time constants you are contemplating are way off, in my opinion. Long before written records gods and their histories were alive in the myths of the people. As comparative myths show, similar to common roots in Indo-European language, common roots can be seen in the [religions of the Indo-European races][1]. Changes and growth would be slow and not out of random creativity, but of religious needs as the environment changed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Before the advent of Christianity in the region gods from other regions were not rejected, viz the altar in Athens to the &quot;unknown god&quot; which apostle Paul used to take off his proselytizing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even Christianity, a proselytizing religion, took a few centuries to become the main religion, and even then, a lot of the rites and god attributes were transferred to the new saints.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The religious stance of the hoi polloi started in the home and in childhood and was a continuous narrative which can be embellished and changed but much more slowly than you imagine. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A week ago I went to a memorial service in a  village of about 2000 people in Greece.  About two hundred people were following the liturgy, children and adults, to kiss the icons and genuflect, and communion was taken by some as young as 15 yrs old before the memorial part started. Religious feelings are strong and can be manipulated by apocalyptic religions, as the take of Christianity shows, but it is a time-consuming process. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apocalyptic religions, like the laws of Moses, and Christianity, and the advent of Mohamed seem to be the province of the Semitic line of culture. They obviously address a part of the human psyche strongly, but there is no indication in the Greek mythological records that there was an apocalyptic act that generated the narrative of Olympus etc. (apocalyptic with the original meaning, sudden appearance).&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_religion" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12184" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="881" RevisionGUID="d4468408-effc-40c2-9d6f-ce5f4b33dffc" CreationDate="2017-10-03T07:32:49.737" UserId="57" Comment="removed meta commentary" Text="I stumbled upon an article by Åke Hultkrantz called [*A new look at the world pillar in Arctic and sub-Arctic religions*](https://books.google.de/books?hl=en&amp;lr=&amp;id=rvf0V3z-6asC&amp;oi=fnd&amp;pg=PA31&amp;dq=arctic+the+world+axis&amp;ots=ncSmrWTluY&amp;sig=GEsTlLVPzHACLpu8TGZ2qAbrXvc#v=onepage&amp;q=arctic%20the%20world%20axis&amp;f=false) that is relevant to the question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Hultkrantz, there is a cosmogonical concept common to a number of Eurasian arctic and subarctic people: that of a world pillar/pole maintaining the sky. Here is what he says about its relationship with the north star:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The top of the world pillar, or the world pillar as a whole, is identified with the polar star. Basic here is the observation that, in the northern sky, the stars revolve as if around a fixed point. It is believed that this point is the upper end of the world pillar, provided with an iron needle around which the sky circles. This needle is the mechanism for the rotation of the sky, and is thereby easily identified with the polar star.&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The distribution of the pertinent traits shows that while the concept of the polar star as the fixed point of the world pillar seems to be common to the whole circumpolar area, the idea of the needle is only represented among Eurasian sub-Arctic peoples. [...]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The nail on the world column, or what we here conveniently could call the &quot;world nail&quot;, has apparently been a widely distributed Eurasian concept. All sources at our disposal hint that this nail was identical with the polar star. This holds for the Saamis, the Esthonians, the Samoyeds, the Chuckchee and the Koryak. It is furthermore most interesting that the polar star has been called world pillar. Thus, as Harva has noted, Mongols, Buryats, Kalmucks, Altai Tatars and Uigurs call the polar star &quot;the golden pillar&quot;, Kirghis, Bashgirs and other Tatars name it &quot;iron pillar&quot;, the Teleuts &quot;the lone post&quot; and the Orotchi (Tungus) &quot;the golden post&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the origin of the concept, according to Hultkrantz:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The world pillar, we may insist, genuinely represents an archaic, circumpolar world view. Since circumpolar culture, besides being an adaptation to the Arctic and sub-Arctic environment, typifies a culture of mesolithic-palaeolithic origins it seems probable that the world pillar and associated mythic-ritual complex may be traced back to this time and age." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12185" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="637" RevisionGUID="95933525-8c7c-494d-9439-7f2d52aed193" CreationDate="2017-10-03T07:35:28.617" UserId="57" Comment="corrected spelling, and formed titled as a question." Text="In the 16th-century Chinese classic *Journey to the West* by Wu Cheng'en, the Jade Emperor is depicted as ruling over Heavens the way an actual human emperor would rule over a country. Complaints are brought to him and he rules by decrees and ordinances, in a very bureaucratic way. Everyone in Heaven has a specific job to do and need to report on the said job to him. Slackers are shown to be punished severely.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Jade Emperor is also shown to be sometimes proud, inflexible and short-tempered. This depiction seems peculiar to me: one would expect the ruler of Heaven to show some temperance, leniency and humility, and the Heaven that the Immortals longed for to be a little more relaxing.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Additionally, the powers of the Jade Emperor seems to be purely (as for a human emperor) its authority. When he decides to stop Sun Wukong he has to send an army after him. When Sun Wukong wrecks the Peach Banquet, he has to order an investigation to know what happens, etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This contrasts a lot with the depiction of the Buddha in the book, who manages to trick Sun Wukong to be trapped under his hand, that he then transforms into a mountain. This contrast leads me to think that maybe the depiction of the Jade Emperor and his Heaven is biased.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now I'm aware that the author veers frequently away from the canon of Chinese mythology (even if most of the novel is just a rewriting of classic folkloric tales), but how far does the depiction of the Jade Emperor and his Heaven deviate from the canonical Chinese mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12186" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="637" RevisionGUID="95933525-8c7c-494d-9439-7f2d52aed193" CreationDate="2017-10-03T07:35:28.617" UserId="57" Comment="corrected spelling, and formed titled as a question." Text="How accurate is the depiction of the Jade Emperor in &quot;Journey to the West&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12187" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1082" RevisionGUID="59d475a9-30fc-499e-ad7c-94511b9558fb" CreationDate="2017-10-03T07:39:04.147" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|christianity|revelation|apocalypse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12188" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1065" RevisionGUID="e8a63cdd-1e7b-426c-8ec4-042d40bf177b" CreationDate="2017-10-03T07:39:23.473" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|iliad|achilles|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12189" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3026" RevisionGUID="cbb09f32-3806-4bec-ad0b-82d14b6d2054" CreationDate="2017-10-03T08:39:58.903" UserId="57" Text="Are there any Navajo tales that explain how one becomes a [skin-walker][1]? Is it an innate or an acquired ability? Can anyone become a skin-walker, or is there a hereditary element or other constraints?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin-walker" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12190" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3026" RevisionGUID="cbb09f32-3806-4bec-ad0b-82d14b6d2054" CreationDate="2017-10-03T08:39:58.903" UserId="57" Text="How does one become a skin-walker?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12191" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3026" RevisionGUID="cbb09f32-3806-4bec-ad0b-82d14b6d2054" CreationDate="2017-10-03T08:39:58.903" UserId="57" Text="|native-american|navajo|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12192" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3015" RevisionGUID="d1bb59bc-857f-4869-8e0a-2ebcc56cee4d" CreationDate="2017-10-03T14:37:55.530" UserId="3947" Comment="Added link to Matthew Henry's Commentary on Revelation 12, may include a section on that in the future" Text="There is no one answer for this question. I will show you a few theories that I am aware of that describe who this woman is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mary the Mother of Jesus&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;Considering who the child she bore is, it would seem to be Mary the mother of Jesus. The description from the above chapter matches the description from the Gospels about the events surrounding the birth of Jesus. The dragon is synonymous with Herod the Great, or even Satan who may have inspired Herod the Great. Herod attempted to kill the child, but God sent an angel to warn Mary's husband Joseph about Herod's plot, causing the family to flee to Egypt. This could be synonymous with the woman fleeing to the wilderness.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some issues with this is that Jesus went with Mary and Joseph to Egypt and does not appear to have been &quot;caught up unto God and to His throne.&quot; Also, the description of the woman in verse 1 is difficult to attribute to Mary.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Virgo the Constellation&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;Another theory, which is/was quite popular recently, is that the woman is the constellation Virgo and that a lot of this is about the stars and planets. Most people who support this theory say that the prophecy in Revelation is of not just one event, but at least two, the first one being the birth of Christ as I described above. Considering this and that Mary was a virgin, it is believed that the woman is Virgo because Virgo means Virgin. This sign in heaven involves the sun being in a place that is in front of Virgo (which happens every September/October), the moon being near the feet of Virgo (where exactly is under her feet has always confused me, yet could happen each month), and Virgo having 12 stars near her head (possibly forming a ring above her head, in my opinion). When she was pregnant, the planet Jupiter (the king planet) passed through her in a way that made it look like Virgo was giving birth to Jupiter. This is an interesting idea: the Virgin constellation giving birth to the King planet. Verse 5 gives some support to this. The crown of 12 stars upon her head is currently believed to be the constellation Leo (which has 9 stars as part of its outline) and the 3 planets Mercury, Mars and Venus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This &quot;crown&quot; being present is what makes the September 23, 2017 occurrence of these signs unique. Every year, Virgo is clothed in the sun, every month the moon is at her feet, and every 12 years Jupiter moves through Virgo. For only a few days each year does Virgo have the moon at her feet and is clothed in the sun. Often times, Jupiter is in Virgo when this happens. But on September 23rd 2017 she also had a crown. The main issue with this is that there are more visible stars than just 9. Some have counted even 13 in a light-polluted neighborhood. Also, this is rather far above Virgo's head to be a crown; I would expect a crown to be a lot closer to her head. This combination of events is rare, but not unique to 2017.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Summary&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;We can speculate all we want, but we really have no idea who she is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Read More about Revelation 12&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;* [Are the Stars Lining Up on September 23 for the Lord’s Return?](https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/stars/are-stars-lining-september-23-lords-return)&#xD;&#xA;* [Biblical Signs in the Sky? September 23, 2017](http://www.vofoundation.org/blog/biblical-signs-sky-september-23-2017/)&#xD;&#xA;* [What Will Happen on September 23, 2017?](https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/stars/what-will-happen-september-23-2017)&#xD;&#xA;* [Matthew Henry's Commentary on Revelation 12](http://biblehub.com/commentaries/mhc/revelation/12.htm)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12193" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3027" RevisionGUID="651cc2ee-2f7e-4d7a-8769-e1aed1d1d474" CreationDate="2017-10-03T17:17:00.297" UserId="4230" Text="I was just thinking about some Gods in Mythology, and i was thinking how I notice some gods are shown as being older(Zeus), while others are shown as younger.  I am curious if age has anything to do with respect or possibly power in mythology?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are mentions of parents and such, so I'm curious if there is any mention of birth and how Mythology handles birth/growth?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there instances that show/mention Gods looking different throughout history (aging at all?), or do the Gods usually stay the same in terms of looks?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;NOTE:  There are Gods in Mythology that can control time, and possibly even their looks, etc, but I'm not looking at them per-say, but more the entire picture, if Gods were shown to age or whatnot." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12194" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3027" RevisionGUID="651cc2ee-2f7e-4d7a-8769-e1aed1d1d474" CreationDate="2017-10-03T17:17:00.297" UserId="4230" Text="Were any Gods in mythology shown to have aged?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12195" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3027" RevisionGUID="651cc2ee-2f7e-4d7a-8769-e1aed1d1d474" CreationDate="2017-10-03T17:17:00.297" UserId="4230" Text="|chronology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12196" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3028" RevisionGUID="a777679e-b368-446d-aa08-f666fba3f4d4" CreationDate="2017-10-03T17:43:43.593" UserId="4105" Text="A very common trope in vampire fiction is that vampires can't walk in the sun, and will die if they try to. See, for example, [Suicide by Sunlight](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SuicideBySunlight) on TVTropes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is that? What is the origin of the myth?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia's [Vampire folklore by region](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampire_folklore_by_region) article doesn't offer an answer, and neither does the source of much vampiric lore, Bram Stocker's _Dracula_. Sunlight [limits the Count's powers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count_Dracula#Limitations_of_his_powers), but it doesn't kill the creature.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12197" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3028" RevisionGUID="a777679e-b368-446d-aa08-f666fba3f4d4" CreationDate="2017-10-03T17:43:43.593" UserId="4105" Text="Why can't vampires walk in the sun?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12198" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3028" RevisionGUID="a777679e-b368-446d-aa08-f666fba3f4d4" CreationDate="2017-10-03T17:43:43.593" UserId="4105" Text="|vampires|sun|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12200" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3029" RevisionGUID="0fe4e7e1-5222-4a71-a41f-c70de36806c1" CreationDate="2017-10-03T20:06:33.870" UserDisplayName="user1079" Text="&lt;h3&gt;The satan&lt;/h3&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With very few exceptions throughout history, Christian theology has unanimously believed there is but one omnipotent being: 'God' (Yahweh, the god of Israel), who created all things, including the angelic being who would come to be known as 'the satan'. No matter how we might define 'power', it is consistently throughout the whole stream of Christian beliefs, legends, folklores, and myths that the devil's power is limited while God's power is unlimited.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To get to the original question, though, we want to clarify how 'powerful' the satan is relative to the four horsemen found in the Book of Revelation. Muddying this question, however, is *which version* of the satan are we looking at? Even within the whole canon of Christian scriptures, the satan is not depicted consistently. In the Hebrew bible the satan makes but three appearances, in the books of Job, Chronicles, and Zechariah. In none of these text is the satan explicitly 'evil'; he is a sort of prosecutor acting on behalf of heaven's court, his mission to test and object to the faithfulness of God's people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In later Second Temple-era literature, the satan begins to take on a more ominous role, becoming conflated with one of several angels who abandoned their home in heaven when the earth was young. By the time of the original Christian era, apocalyptic Jews perceived the satan as a fallen angel or a demon. The satan here becomes an archetype of evil, his influence wide, but nevertheless doomed to fail in the eschaton. This is the satan we see in the Revelation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Conveyed through the Revelation's symbolism, the satan antagonizes Israel ([the woman in Rev 12](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/3010/who-is-the-woman-clothed-with-the-sun-in-revelation/3022#3022)), inspires the brutal idolatry of Rome's emperor cult (the two beasts in Rev 13-19), and must be restrained to prevent similar influences from spreading across the earth (the dragon's imprisonment in Rev 20). For the author of the Revelation, the satan is dangerous because he causes violent hatred and greed in the world's empires.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;h3&gt;The four horsemen&lt;/h3&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The four horsemen are &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt; four literal people riding horses.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As I pointed out in [an answer to another question](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2957/1079), the Revelation's symbolism runs deep, and the four horsemen are an amalgam of symbols and concepts drawn from across the Hebrew bible:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ezekiel 1-7 has the prophet see a vision of God on his throne, holding in his right hand a scroll with writing on its front and back. The scroll, Ezekiel is told by God, represents his judgment against the kingdom of Judah for the people violating their covenant with him. Ezekiel receives the scroll, ingests it, and then speaks its message of judgment against his fellow Judeans. A handful of times he warns about 'the sword', 'pestilence', 'famine', and even 'wild animals'. This cluster of disasters -- war, plague, famine, and attacks from wild animals -- comes from a common tradition seen throughout Hebrew prophetic literature. It is encapsulate in Leviticus 26, a chapter that warns these things will fall on the Hebrews if they do evil and disobey God.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A century and a half later, Zechariah 1 has another prophet receive a vision of four men/angels riding four differently colored horses. In chapter 6, the prophet sees four chariots drawn by four differently colored horses. The two visions symbolize judgment against the Judeans' enemy, Babylon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Revelation 4-6 combines parts of the vision of Ezekiel 1-7 with parts of the visions of Zechariah 1 and 6, to make a new scene: The revelator sees a vision of God on his throne, holding in his hand a scroll with writing on its front and back. The revelator sees a slain lamb (Jesus) receive the scroll and begin to break the wax seals keeping it shut. As each seal is broken, more of the scrolls contents are revealed. The first four revelations are symbolized as four men/angels riding four differently colored horses. They carry authority to enact a cluster of disasters -- war, plague, famine, and attacks from wild animals -- and are given instructions from either God or Jesus (Rev 6.6, 'a voice in the middle of the four living creatures', which surround Gods throne).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;h3&gt;Conclusion&lt;/h3&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Based on the sources the revelator depends on to form his vision of the four horseman in Revelation 6, the four horsemen appear to symbolize various judgments &lt;i&gt;from God&lt;/i&gt;. The likely target of these judgments is the forces of evil identified in Revelation 12-19: the dragon ([the satan](https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/a/8122/2910)), the two beasts ([the Roman Empire and its emperor cult](https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/a/9206/2910)), Babylon ([Rome itself](https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/a/7872/2910)), and 'the kings of the earth' ([a general catch-all](https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/a/17380/2910) for world leaders and nations that ally with Rome's ideology).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Revelation is a Second Temple-period apocalypse. Although these apocalypses carried explicitly dualistic *themes* of good and evil, the authors were not ditheistic: no evildoer can ultimately match God.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the four horsemen to represent God's judgment against evil forces, including the satan, this would make the four horsemen 'more powerful than the devil' as far as the revelator is concerned." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12201" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3030" RevisionGUID="f8e54f31-e120-44c7-a4eb-abb9202354d2" CreationDate="2017-10-03T23:24:20.620" UserId="2892" Text="The Greek gods could definitely age.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus, unlike his most famous daughter Athena, who sprang from his head fully grown and armored, is an infant at his own birth:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Enraged at this, Rhea repaired to Crete, when she was big with Zeus, and brought him forth in a cave of Dicte. She gave him to the Curetes and to the nymphs Adrastia and Ida, daughters of Melisseus, to nurse ... these nymphs fed the child on the milk of Amalthea, and the Curetes in arms guarded the babe in the cave ... Rhea wrapped a stone in swaddling clothes and gave it to Cronus to swallow, as if it were the newborn child. &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Apollodorus 1.1.6 ff.][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Hermes is the best example of a Greek god beginning as a child and ultimately having adult form: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Maia, the eldest, as the fruit of her intercourse with Zeus, gave birth to Hermes in a cave of Cyllene. He was laid in swaddling-bands on the winnowing fan, but he slipped out and made his way to Pieria and stole the kine which Apollo was herding. &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Apollodorus 3.10.2][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hermes was definitively in child form:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...Apollo came to Pylus in search of the kine, and he questioned the inhabitants. They said that they had seen a boy driving cattle ... Apollo came to Maia at Cyllene and accused Hermes. But she showed him the child in his swaddling-bands.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [ibid.][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hermes, of course, grew into adulthood, as he is commonly depicted as a *[kouros][3]* (young man), such as in [this statue][4]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although some of the Greek gods age into their final, adult forms, there are no examples of the Greek gods getting old or dying of old age, so far as I am aware.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, although the Greek gods could age, they are nevertheless eternal, ageless, and immortal.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D1%3Asection%3D6&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D3%3Achapter%3D10%3Asection%3D2&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kouros&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Hermes_Ingenui_Pio-Clementino_Inv544.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12202" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3030" RevisionGUID="f04b7b66-da47-4ac1-885f-f78b208d2a94" CreationDate="2017-10-03T23:30:30.740" UserId="2892" Comment="added 176 characters in body" Text="The Greek gods could definitely age.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus, unlike his most famous daughter, Athena, who sprang from his head fully grown and armored, is an infant at his own birth:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Enraged at this, Rhea repaired to Crete, when she was big with Zeus, and brought him forth in a cave of Dicte. She gave him to the Curetes and to the nymphs Adrastia and Ida, daughters of Melisseus, to nurse ... these nymphs fed the child on the milk of Amalthea, and the Curetes in arms guarded the babe in the cave ... Rhea wrapped a stone in swaddling clothes and gave it to Cronus to swallow, as if it were the newborn child. &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Apollodorus 1.1.6 ff.][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus, of course, grew into the [bearded sky-father he is most commonly depicted as][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Hermes is the best example of a Greek god beginning as a child and ultimately having adult form: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Maia, the eldest, as the fruit of her intercourse with Zeus, gave birth to Hermes in a cave of Cyllene. He was laid in swaddling-bands on the winnowing fan, but he slipped out and made his way to Pieria and stole the kine which Apollo was herding. &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Apollodorus 3.10.2][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hermes was definitively in child form:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...Apollo came to Pylus in search of the kine, and he questioned the inhabitants. They said that they had seen a boy driving cattle ... Apollo came to Maia at Cyllene and accused Hermes. But she showed him the child in his swaddling-bands.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [ibid.][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hermes, like Zeus, grew into adulthood, but is commonly depicted as a *[kouros][4]* (young man), such as in [this statue][5]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although some of the Greek gods age into their final, adult forms, there are no examples of the Greek gods getting old or dying of old age, so far as I am aware.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, although the Greek gods could age, they are nevertheless eternal, ageless, and immortal.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D1%3Asection%3D6&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus#/media/File:Jupiter_Smyrna_Louvre_Ma13.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D3%3Achapter%3D10%3Asection%3D2&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kouros&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Hermes_Ingenui_Pio-Clementino_Inv544.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12203" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3029" RevisionGUID="be8c7fba-b4c0-40ce-afdc-34d0aa3f2c2a" CreationDate="2017-10-03T23:39:08.253" UserDisplayName="user1079" Comment="added 162 characters in body" Text="&lt;h3&gt;The satan&lt;/h3&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With very few exceptions throughout history, Christian theology has unanimously believed there is but one omnipotent being: 'God' (Yahweh, the god of Israel), who created all things, including the angelic being who would come to be known as 'the satan'. No matter how we might define 'power', it is consistent throughout the whole stream of Christian beliefs, legends, folklores, and myths that the devil's power is limited while God's power is unlimited.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To get to the original question, though, we want to clarify how 'powerful' the satan is relative to the four horsemen found in the Book of Revelation. Muddying this question, however, is *which version* of the satan are we looking at? Even within the whole canon of Christian scriptures, the satan is not depicted consistently. In the Hebrew bible the satan makes but three appearances, in the books of Job, Chronicles, and Zechariah. In none of these text is the satan explicitly 'evil'; he is a sort of prosecutor acting on behalf of heaven's court, his mission to test and object to the faithfulness of God's people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In later Second Temple-era literature, the satan begins to take on a more ominous role, becoming conflated with one of several angels who abandoned their home in heaven when the earth was young (an interpretation of Genesis 6.1-4 popular by the first century BC). By the time of the earliest Christian era, apocalyptic Jews perceived the satan as a fallen angel or a demon. In apocalyptic thought, the satan is the archetype of evil, his influence wide, but nevertheless doomed to fail in the eschaton. This is the satan we see in the Revelation, and the version we should stick with.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Conveyed through the Revelation's symbolism, the satan antagonizes Israel ([the woman in Rev 12](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/3010/who-is-the-woman-clothed-with-the-sun-in-revelation/3022#3022)), inspires the brutal idolatry of Rome's emperor cult (the two beasts in Rev 13-19), and must be restrained to prevent similar influences from spreading across the earth (the dragon's imprisonment in Rev 20). For the author of the Revelation, the satan is dangerous because he causes violent hatred and greed in the world's empires.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;h3&gt;The four horsemen&lt;/h3&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The four horsemen are &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt; four literal people riding horses.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As I pointed out in [an answer to another question](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2957/1079), the Revelation's symbolism runs deep, and the four horsemen are an amalgam of symbols and concepts drawn from across the Hebrew bible:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ezekiel 1-7 has the prophet see a vision of God on his throne, holding in his right hand a scroll with writing on its front and back. The scroll, Ezekiel is told, represents God's judgment against the kingdom of Judah for the people violating their covenant with him. Ezekiel receives the scroll, ingests it, and then speaks its message of judgment against his fellow Judeans. A handful of times he warns about 'the sword', 'pestilence', 'famine', and even 'wild animals'. This cluster of disasters — war, plague, famine, and attacks from wild animals — comes from a common tradition seen throughout Hebrew prophetic literature. It is encapsulated in Leviticus 26, a chapter that warns these exact things will fall on the Hebrews if they do evil and disobey God.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A century and a half later, Zechariah 1 has another prophet receive a vision of four men/angels riding four differently colored horses. In chapter 6, the prophet sees four chariots drawn by four differently colored horses. The two visions each symbolize judgment against the Judeans' enemy, Babylon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Revelation 4-6 combines parts of the vision of Ezekiel 1-7 with parts of the visions of Zechariah 1 and 6, to make a new scene: The revelator sees a vision of God on his throne, holding in his hand a scroll with writing on its front and back. The revelator sees a slain lamb (Jesus) receive the scroll and begin to break the wax seals keeping it shut. As each seal is broken, more of the scroll's contents are revealed. The first four revelations are symbolized as four men/angels riding four differently colored horses. They carry authority to enact a cluster of disasters — war, plague, famine, and attacks from wild animals — and are given instructions from either God or Jesus (Rev 6.6, 'a voice in the middle of the four living creatures', being the location of God's throne).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;h3&gt;Conclusion&lt;/h3&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Based on the sources the revelator depends on to form his vision in Revelation 6, the four horsemen appear to symbolize various judgments &lt;i&gt;from God&lt;/i&gt;. The likely target of these judgments is the forces of evil identified in Revelation 12-19: the dragon ([the satan](https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/a/8122/2910)), the two beasts ([the Roman Empire and its emperor cult](https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/a/9206/2910)), Babylon ([Rome itself](https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/a/7872/2910)), and 'the kings of the earth' ([a general catch-all](https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/a/17380/2910) for world leaders and nations that ally with Rome's ideology).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Revelation is a Second Temple-period apocalypse. Although these apocalypses carried explicitly dualistic *themes* of good and evil, the authors were not ditheistic: no evildoer can ultimately match God; it is guaranteed that good will triumph over evil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the four horsemen to represent God's judgment against evil forces, including the satan, this would make the four horsemen 'more powerful than the devil' as far as the revelator is concerned." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12205" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3028" RevisionGUID="1dfc5c27-063c-4e3c-80ea-04e4b63ae7fd" CreationDate="2017-10-04T04:45:52.657" UserId="3741" Comment="added the origin tag" Text="|origins|vampires|sun|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12206" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3028" RevisionGUID="1dfc5c27-063c-4e3c-80ea-04e4b63ae7fd" CreationDate="2017-10-04T04:45:52.657" Comment="Proposed by 3741 approved by 2892, 183 edit id of 491" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12207" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3027" RevisionGUID="6e588cc3-19c7-4070-a6aa-7e030b918a04" CreationDate="2017-10-04T04:48:16.567" UserId="183" Comment="added 7 characters in body; edited title" Text="I was just thinking about some gods in mythology, and I was thinking how I notice some gods are shown as being older (Zeus), while others are shown as younger.  I am curious if age has anything to do with respect or possibly power in mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are mentions of parents and such, so I'm curious if there is any mention of birth and how mythology handles birth/growth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there instances that show/mention gods looking different throughout history (aging at all?), or do the gods usually stay the same in terms of appearances?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: There are gods in mythology that can control time, and possibly even their looks, etc, but I'm not looking at them *per se*, but more the entire picture, if gods were shown to age or whatnot." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12208" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3027" RevisionGUID="6e588cc3-19c7-4070-a6aa-7e030b918a04" CreationDate="2017-10-04T04:48:16.567" UserId="183" Comment="added 7 characters in body; edited title" Text="Were any gods in mythology shown to have aged?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12216" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3031" RevisionGUID="958d5355-5897-40dc-9a4e-b82bc52d03f9" CreationDate="2017-10-04T06:11:31.150" UserId="666" Text="The entire Norse pantheon could definitely age and become weaker, and possibly even die of old age. This was counteracted by the goddess [Iðunn][1] and her apples, which restored youth. In *Skáldskaparmál*, Snorri tells of how she was kidnapped by the giants, and how the gods subsequently began to grow old and sent Loki to reclaim her before they grew to feeble.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, in the story of Thor's meeting with [Útgarða-Loki][2], also told by Snorri, Thor is at one point forced to wrestle with &quot;old age&quot; disguised as an old woman. While he is defeated by being forced down one knee, the giants are still impressed that he is not felled completely.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%C3%B0unn&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Atgar%C3%B0a-Loki" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12218" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="725" RevisionGUID="0ad2f42e-45d3-4e9d-8fe6-1572b817211f" CreationDate="2017-10-04T11:43:22.517" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body" Text="According to Graham Hancock, who has been doing a lot of research for a long time on megaliths and ancient cultures, there has been recent evidence of a gigantic cataclysm around 12500 years ago from multiple large fragments of a 200km Comet. Apparently, the evidence, in the form of nanodiamonds, widespread flood across North America, mass extinctions had been brought to light by about 30 specialists of one sort or another but is kind of buried in various papers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He has been searching for a very long time for evidence of a global culture that he believes was responsible for megaliths in South America, Egypt, Turkey and which was flourishing before this huge event. He looks for evidence of cities in areas hundreds of metres below current sea level, which were flooded by the global flood around 12,000 years ago.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The comet hit the 2km thick ice sheet, producing massive heating and flooding, then that was followed by a worse ice age before this period ended. According to him, this period matches exactly the time that Plato was talking about. A talk containing details of his book to come where he describes some of this is at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75j5CP0vtsI" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12226" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="2834" RevisionGUID="274a8c52-6a41-4464-b491-14c1aaabd8a9" CreationDate="2017-10-05T17:50:12.963" UserId="183" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:183,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;HDE 226868&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="12230" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3027" RevisionGUID="51e2dd7b-40dd-46b9-9475-0303a62c815e" CreationDate="2017-10-06T07:32:35.617" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|chronology|ageing|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12231" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2466" RevisionGUID="09dd467b-416b-489d-a787-30708ab9dd62" CreationDate="2017-10-06T07:32:43.057" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|comparative|hercules|ageing|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12233" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3035" RevisionGUID="09920957-ce89-44ce-9680-73e67c8443aa" CreationDate="2017-10-06T14:12:09.430" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="Were there street processions before local newspapers started encouraging them in the 1920s? And how did the &quot;star boy&quot; element - perhaps related to the practice of Epiphany singers, although Epiphany and Santa Lucia's day are quite a way apart - accrete to the Lucia tradition? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12234" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3035" RevisionGUID="09920957-ce89-44ce-9680-73e67c8443aa" CreationDate="2017-10-06T14:12:09.430" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="What were the origins of the Santa Lucia processions in Sweden featuring candle-wearing Lucia and the cone-capped star boys?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12235" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3035" RevisionGUID="09920957-ce89-44ce-9680-73e67c8443aa" CreationDate="2017-10-06T14:12:09.430" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12238" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3036" RevisionGUID="6238dc25-55bc-4689-8cb0-7b4d6a79f5a8" CreationDate="2017-10-06T15:41:46.847" UserId="666" Text="The tradition of Lucia processions as known today was started in 1928. There were some precedents, but nothing matching exactly. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some background: the oldest part of folklore that is relevant to the Lucia tradition is the link to the winter solstice (using the Julian calendar). in the fourteenth century, they coincided, and it appears this connection lived on even when the Julian calender got less accurate, and when the Gregorian calender was introduced in Sweden in 1753 (possibly this had something to do with &quot;Lucia&quot; being linked to &quot;lux&quot;, but otherwise there is no obvious connection between the early traditions and the saint). The date was also close enough to Christmas to acquire some weight from it. This was seen as a very dangerous night, with evil powers at their strongest. There were several different ways to deal with this night, but some sort of wake seems to have been common, especially in western Sweden.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first record of the tradition of a young girl clad in white and with a crown of candles, serving breakfast, is from 1764 (this might have been an adaptation of a German tradition of dressing up as Jesus with candles in the hair). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another tradition from the same area was where young men went around between farms and sang and in return got some spirits or food (similar traditions has existed in other parts of Sweden, during other times of the year). This was originally linked with Saint Stephen, and done on December 26. One important part of this tradition was a story of how Stephen was supposed to water the horses of Herodes, but one refused to drink from the water because it saw the reflection of the Star of Bethlehem. A similar tradition was for young men to dress up as women and go around the neighbourhood and act as fools, on the night before Lucia. The linking with Lucia seems to have been done in modern times, but I have not found many details on how this happened.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These Stephen singers might be one origin of the boys in white with stars in their hand. Another source instead links them with the Wise men in Christmas plays.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;The sources are, for obvious reasons, in Swedish:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Nordiska museet has a [page on Lucia][1] which serves as a good overview, also of other older traditions&#xD;&#xA; - Historiska Museet has a good [page on the Stephen traditions][2].&#xD;&#xA; - Västergötlands museum has some [interesting supplemental material][3] on the local traditions, especially some interesting parts on how Lusse was celebrated in modern times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.nordiskamuseet.se/aretsdagar/lucia&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://historiska.se/upptack-historien/artikel/staffan-var-en-stalledrang/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://vastergotlandsmuseum.se/nyheter/lucia-har-alltid-sett-olika-ut/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12239" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3030" RevisionGUID="52134c05-92de-42a7-bddb-828850513c8c" CreationDate="2017-10-06T20:25:37.327" UserId="2892" Comment="added 78 characters in body" Text="The Greek gods could definitely age.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus, unlike his most famous daughter, Athena, who sprang from his head fully grown and armored, is an infant at his own birth:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Enraged at this, Rhea repaired to Crete, when she was big with Zeus, and brought him forth in a cave of Dicte. She gave him to the Curetes and to the nymphs Adrastia and Ida, daughters of Melisseus, to nurse ... these nymphs fed the child on the milk of Amalthea, and the Curetes in arms guarded the babe in the cave ... Rhea wrapped a stone in swaddling clothes and gave it to Cronus to swallow, as if it were the newborn child. &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Apollodorus 1.1.6 ff.][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus, of course, grew into the [bearded sky-father he is most commonly depicted as][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Hermes is the best example of a Greek god beginning as a child and ultimately having adult form: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Maia, the eldest, as the fruit of her intercourse with Zeus, gave birth to Hermes in a cave of Cyllene. He was laid in swaddling-bands on the winnowing fan, but he slipped out and made his way to Pieria and stole the kine which Apollo was herding. &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Apollodorus 3.10.2][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hermes was definitively in child form:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...Apollo came to Pylus in search of the kine, and he questioned the inhabitants. They said that they had seen a boy driving cattle ... Apollo came to Maia at Cyllene and accused Hermes. But she showed him the child in his swaddling-bands.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [ibid.][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hermes, like Zeus, grew into adulthood, but is commonly depicted as a *[kouros][4]* (young man), such as in [this statue][5], or as a [bearded man][6]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although some of the Greek gods age into their final, adult forms, there are no examples of the Greek gods getting old or dying of old age, so far as I am aware.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, although the Greek gods could age, they are nevertheless eternal, ageless, and immortal.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D1%3Asection%3D6&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus#/media/File:Jupiter_Smyrna_Louvre_Ma13.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D3%3Achapter%3D10%3Asection%3D2&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kouros&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Hermes_Ingenui_Pio-Clementino_Inv544.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.theoi.com/image/K11.11Hermes.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12240" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3037" RevisionGUID="01502847-d66b-4d6a-beb9-a306f07f839a" CreationDate="2017-10-07T12:32:58.657" UserId="4248" Text="Caliburn and Excalibur are two different swords. Caliburn is the &quot;sword in the stone&quot; which is used to prove king Arthur's right to the throne. He used this weapon in many battles and won but at some point the &quot;King's sword&quot; is broken, leaving king Arthur with no powerful swords&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And by accident, king Arthur found the lady of the lake and was given the sword Excalibur which is made by the wishes of mankind and said to give him the ability to win wars. Though at his last battle with Mordred, he's been wounded very bad and cause his death but before he died he ask Merlin to throw the Excalibur back to &quot;The lady of the lake&quot; by means of throwing it back the lake therefore the sacred sword is never been found." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12241" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3038" RevisionGUID="5311fc73-fe0a-4983-b231-d256bbf7e2a8" CreationDate="2017-10-07T21:43:30.270" UserId="4249" Text="What religious order and where in Japan would there be the Seven Sages temple?&#xD;&#xA;Were there 8 sages not seven?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12242" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3038" RevisionGUID="5311fc73-fe0a-4983-b231-d256bbf7e2a8" CreationDate="2017-10-07T21:43:30.270" UserId="4249" Text="Seven Sages of Japan" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12243" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3038" RevisionGUID="5311fc73-fe0a-4983-b231-d256bbf7e2a8" CreationDate="2017-10-07T21:43:30.270" UserId="4249" Text="|history|japanese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12246" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3040" RevisionGUID="6cbe83f3-ec70-412a-885c-8ef95f15ce25" CreationDate="2017-10-08T14:42:05.477" UserId="1241" Text="There seems to be no clear link as to how the &quot;cone-shaped star boys&quot; became associated with candle-wearing Saint Lucy during the Swedish processions in her honor, but there are several possible links I would like to point out.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am going to try and bring to the forefront additional information to [Andejons' Answer][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The compiler of the now famous work known as the Golden Legend (Legenda Aurea) in 1260 by [Jacobus da Varagine][2] (1230-1298) does not mention anything that could be seemingly used to be the source of this tradition, but admits the current traditions that were known in his time. One can read the Golden Legend's entry on St. Lucy [here][3] (59).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now I will try to show how the &quot;con-bearing star boys&quot; were added to the mix.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the fourteenth century, St. Lucy's Day fell on the longest night of the year (December 13). The longest night of the year is known as [Blue Christmas][4] and for some the start of the Christmas season and when some pray that Christ will shed his light on the faithful (living and dead).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In 1649 the port city of Palermo was in the midst of a famine. Then on her Feast Day (December 13) a ship sailed into port bearing a shipment of wheat. The city was saved by the Saint. According to custom, bread should not be eaten on December 13; [cuccìa][5] should be the only source of wheat, and the primary source of nourishment for the day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another story goes like this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; She was also known to feed her people in times of famine. A story is told that St. Lucia arrived in the Syracuse harbor in 1582, bearing wheat on a ship for the townsfolk who had prayed to her for help while they were starving. A similar story takes place in medieval Sweden. St. Lucia, “with a face so radiant that there was a glow of light all about her head,” arrived in a ship on Lake Vannern bearing provisions during a winter famine. From both of these stories comes the custom of eating wheat porridge in honor of Lucia.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Various explanations are given of how the Italian Catholic saint traveled to Lutheran Scandinavia and became firmly entrenched in Nordic culture. Did the Vikings bring the story of St. Lucia back with them on their travels? Perhaps the story was carried by German traders, or priests and monks from the British Isles may have introduced the story.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; However the story arrived in the northlands, it seems clear that the name “Lucia,” from lux (light), captured Nordic hearts as she merged with their ancestral traditions of Freya and Frigga. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; It was not unusual for the titles of ancient goddesses to be adopted as titles for both the Virgin Mary and for female saints. “Freya Vanadis,” meaning “shining bride of the gods,” reminds us of Lucy’s title “Lucia Bride.” Frigga was known as “Queen of the Aesir,” and St. Lucy was also called the “Lucia Queen.” Both were solar goddesses, associated with sun symbols such as sunwheels, cats, spinning, amber, and gold. Freya was called der vana solen, “the beautiful sun,” in a Swedish folksong.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One last point I would like to bring up is the fact the **Three Wise Men** who came from the East followed the Star of Bethlehem (Judea) all the way to the manger were they were received by Jesus, Mary and Joseph. As we already know St. Lucy's Day was once the longest night of the year and is still the beginning of the Christmas season to many!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The introduction of the &quot;cone-shaped star boys&quot; in the St. Lucy procession may be a mixture of the above historical information, be what it may.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![St.Lucy in Procession][6]][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[St. Lucia's Day Procession][7]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The traditional celebration typically taking place at churches, involves a procession of girls and young women. They are dressed in white robes as a symbol of purity and carry candles to symbolize the fire that was not able to take Santa Lucia’s life. One girl is elected to be St. Lucia and she leads the procession wearing a crown of candles (usually electric candles in modern day).&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [![St Lucy's Day][8]][8]&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Because her feast day falls so near to Christmas, some Lucia Day traditions, which developed in the 1700s and beyond, are somewhat blended with Christmas traditions. For example, the girl who is elected to be St. Lucy will hand out candy canes or sweets and pastries. Additionally, boys are often included in processions, dressed in robes and called “star boys,” or dressed as elf-like creatures called “tomtenissar” (Santa’s little helpers) or gingerbread men. - [The Feast of Saint Lucy][9]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/3036/1241&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobus_da_Varagine&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/basis/goldenlegend/GoldenLegend-Volume2.asp&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Christmas_(holiday)&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucc%C3%ACa&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/VjwkR.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://bluemooncandles.wordpress.com/2010/12/11/the-origin-of-candles-on-st-lucias-day/&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/jMTCe.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.aquinasandmore.com/blog/the-feast-of-st-lucy/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12247" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3041" RevisionGUID="c5914b36-c773-4283-895b-c4610c80cfc4" CreationDate="2017-10-09T07:45:32.463" UserId="4105" Text="According to this [blog post][1] by Adam James Jones the &quot;Skinwalker curse is desired and acquired&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They are stories of shape-shifting creatures acrosss Navajo Nation, the 24k-plus reservation land encompassing most of northeastern Arizona and the adjacent corner sections of New Mexico and Utah. A taboo subject amongst natives, Skinwalkers are seldom discussed with members outside the tribe, and rarely even inside it. The Navajo Skinwalker legend is not unlike that of the European werewolf: A once-ordinary human discovers the ability to shift into animal form at night where his doings then become almost exclusively evil. Unlike the werewolf, however, the Skinwalker curse is desired and acquired, that is, Skinwalkers do not have the bad luck to be “bitten” and forced into the curse. Rather, they want it and are willing to perform extraordinary rites of evil in order to achieve it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There are multiple legends behind the origin of the Navajo Skinwalker. One claims the Navajos mastered shapeshifting in order to escape persecution and relocation — the Kit Carson-led cornering of the tribe deep in Canyon de Chelly and later their forced and disastrous relocation to Bosque de Redondo. Another version relates to the Navajo belief in the Anasazi curse — that the Anasazi were responsible for the prevailing witchcraft in the Navajo tribes — and that Navajo Skinwalkers used the off-limit Anasazi ruins and grave sites to gain certain powers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The most prominent history of the Skinwalker tells of a particular form of Navajo witch, or an ’ánt’įįhnii, called ayee naaldlooshii, translated to mean “with it, he goes on all fours.” The yee naaldlooshii is usually a medicine man or high-ranking priest who has obtained supernatural powers through breaking a cultural taboo, including murder, seduction, or the corrupting of a family member.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Upon accepting this deep and consuming level of witchcraft, Skinwalkers are banished forever from a tribe (but considering the foreknowledge of this as well the despicable acts required for the transformation, the aspiring Skinwalker surely possessed an early, pre-seated hate for the tribe). Prowling alone in the desert, a Skinwalker (and also unlike the werewolf) has the ability to shape-shift into any animal they wish, although most commonly the animal is a coyote, wolf, cougar, fox, owl, or crow — a reason why pelts of these animals are widely restricted among the Navajo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The site Navajo Legends isn't as detailed, but also mentions that becoming a skinwalker takes the [murder of a family member][2]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; To become a skinwalker requires the most evil of deeds, the killing of a close family member. They literally become humans who have acquired immense supernatural power, including the ability to transform into animals and other people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://adamjamesjones.wordpress.com/2011/07/28/skinwalkers/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.navajolegends.org/navajo-skinwalker-legend/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12249" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3042" RevisionGUID="a238246d-8197-47a7-a49e-a15f1b8915dd" CreationDate="2017-10-09T08:19:26.893" UserId="4105" Text="An [answer][1] to the [How did Athena keep from being turned into stone by her shield?][2] puts forth an interesting idea: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Athena probably wouldn't have been turned to stone from Medusa's head since Athena was the one who cursed Medusa to look like that in the first place using her own power. Like if someone tried to use Zeus's thunderbolts against him; I don't think it would work since they are his.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is this true? Could Zeus's thunderbolts be used against him? Could Poseidon be hurt by his own trident? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2018/4105&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/412/4105" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12250" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3042" RevisionGUID="a238246d-8197-47a7-a49e-a15f1b8915dd" CreationDate="2017-10-09T08:19:26.893" UserId="4105" Text="Could the weapons of the gods be used against them?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12251" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3042" RevisionGUID="a238246d-8197-47a7-a49e-a15f1b8915dd" CreationDate="2017-10-09T08:19:26.893" UserId="4105" Text="|greek|weapons|god-items|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12256" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="1221" RevisionGUID="193d5ee8-8a46-4f2c-8205-6dbd0626e4df" CreationDate="2017-10-09T08:50:59.083" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="12257" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3042" RevisionGUID="ff81d150-0b41-4ca6-b071-dc6ebcbf5a85" CreationDate="2017-10-09T08:56:49.573" UserId="4105" Comment="added 14 characters in body" Text="[Ethan's answer][1] to the [How did Athena keep from being turned into stone by her shield?][2] question puts forth an interesting idea: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Athena probably wouldn't have been turned to stone from Medusa's head since Athena was the one who cursed Medusa to look like that in the first place using her own power. Like if someone tried to use Zeus's thunderbolts against him; I don't think it would work since they are his.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is this true? Could Zeus's thunderbolts be used against him? Could Poseidon be hurt by his own trident? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2018/4105&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/412/4105" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12258" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3043" RevisionGUID="c613935b-4f0e-42ea-b2dc-93b701ffbb88" CreationDate="2017-10-09T10:34:06.687" UserId="201" Text="If you're looking for a Doylist answer, as it were, vampirism is linked to the actual disease porphyria. Someone with &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porphyria#Chronic_porphyrias&quot;&gt;chronic porphyria&lt;/a&gt; develops blisters after being out in the sun for a short amount of time.  A number of the symptoms of chronic porphyria can be linked to the classic appearance of vampires.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't have any suggestions for a folklore-based answer, however. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12259" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3044" RevisionGUID="25a7fd1b-ecfa-486c-9229-b84ce5bee17e" CreationDate="2017-10-09T16:49:47.060" UserId="4142" Text="The song apparently hints at a quote which once has been popular but now  is  known only by classicists:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ll entreat Achilles to lend me the gold with which Hector was ransomed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Achillem orabo, aurum ut mihi det, Hector qui expensus fuit).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;T. Maccius Plautus, Mercator, or The Merchant, Act 2, Scene 4 &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Paul Veyne, in one of his books (''Did the Greek believe their myths'', n.77), gives the line as an ironic example of something irrealistic, as we could say e.g. &quot;I'll ask Santa for some money&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12260" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3045" RevisionGUID="9f36af0b-9a4d-472a-bdbd-fc18e7c0e6c7" CreationDate="2017-10-09T18:52:28.773" UserId="666" Text="We should perhaps first note that vampires are hardly the only creatures that can not stand sunlight; it is a common attribute among mystical creatures that they only appear at night, and that some of them die in sunlight (we can take as exemples Grendel of *Beowulf*, and the chinese [jiangshi][1], a creature that originally was a reanimated corpse that died when exposed to sunlight, but has acquired more attributes of western vampires in modern lore). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This general association with the night seems to have been a feature of the early folklore vampires, one of the few aspects that survives into the modern vampire. (In folklore, the vampire is a dirty, wild, bloated thing, governed by primal urges; they seem more akin to zombies than Count Dracula). It also featured in the vampire works that saw a huge boom in the early 19th century, such as Byron's *[The Giaour][2]*, in which the titular creature is doomed to walk the earth at night and drain the blood of everyone in his family. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This also illustrated why, even if the step from &quot;only appears at night&quot; to &quot;dies if exposed to sun&quot; is not a long one, it took a while to take it: early vampires tended to be cursed to walk the earth in tragic isolation. For someone cursed like that, having such an easy way to kill themselves was obviously not a useful trait. In stories were vampires were antagonists (more or less monstrous), having them be killed of by something as ordinary as sunlight would easily be seen as anti-climatic; far better to have a showdown with fire or wooden poles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;I have checked two books in Swedish about vampires:&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA; - Katarina Harrison Lindbergh's *Vampyrernas historia*, an accessible general history. She does not spend much time on the sun motif, but notes that it is indeed present in the folkloer.&#xD;&#xA; -  Anna Höglund's *Vampyrer*, based on her doctoral thesis. Much more scholarly, but sadly lacking a useful index. It does give many interesting perspectives on how the vampire mythos developed in the western world. I could, however, not find any discussion about this particular aspect, perhaps because it does not seem to seem to carry the same amount of significance as other aspects.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiangshi&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Giaour" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12261" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3046" RevisionGUID="27b08760-ff98-4bfc-8aba-c75c8c2e4ff3" CreationDate="2017-10-10T03:38:30.923" UserId="2892" Text="Both gods have legends involving extraordinary powers as children.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This link][1] discusses the infant Krishna, as an incarnation of Vishnu, instructing his father Vasudeva on how to escape the wrath of the tyrant Kamsa, and goes on to discuss the many wondrous deeds of the child god.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As the wiki notes, Krishna was also mischievous and a cow herder.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hermes is likewise mischievous and perhaps the most famous cow herder in Greek mythology:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;He was laid in swaddling-bands on the winnowing fan,2 but he slipped out and made his way to Pieria and stole the kine which Apollo was herding.3 And lest he should be detected by the tracks, he put shoes on their feet and brought them to Pylus, and hid the rest in a cave...&quot; &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Apollodorus 3.10.2][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Krishna is associated with music, famous for his flute playing, and Hermes is credited with the invention of the lyre, and plays a flute:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;...before the cave he found a tortoise browsing. He cleaned it out, strung the shell with chords made from the kine he had sacrificed, and having thus produced a lyre he invented also a [plectrum][3] ... when Apollo heard the lyre, he gave the kine in exchange for it. And while Hermes pastured them, he again made himself a shepherd's pipe and piped on it.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [ibid.][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These are the obvious parallels—are there more?  What have scholars written about this subject?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=_3AzDwAAQBAJ&amp;lpg=PT164&amp;ots=LweY0dw2mx&amp;dq=birth%20of%20krishna%20baby%20speaks&amp;pg=PT164#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D3%3Achapter%3D10%3Asection%3D2&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plectrum" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12262" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3046" RevisionGUID="27b08760-ff98-4bfc-8aba-c75c8c2e4ff3" CreationDate="2017-10-10T03:38:30.923" UserId="2892" Text="Are Krishna and Hermes related?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12263" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3046" RevisionGUID="27b08760-ff98-4bfc-8aba-c75c8c2e4ff3" CreationDate="2017-10-10T03:38:30.923" UserId="2892" Text="|greek|comparative|hindu|hermes|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12268" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3048" RevisionGUID="9cde8a9d-6641-460e-aecd-3ecb0b0a480d" CreationDate="2017-10-11T07:36:30.873" UserId="4105" Text="The site [Egyptian Myths][1] has an [article on Senet][2] that proposes a link between the game and the afterlife: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Meaning:** The senet game was connected to the afterlife. Senet boards were often placed in tombs (Tutankhamen was entombed with four, it is assumed that the game was a favorite of his). The game was supposed to be a pasttime for the deceased. However, symbolically the game also was connected with the attainment of the afterlife by the dead. In many tomb paintings and Book of the Dead illustrations, the deceased is shown playing the game with no visible opponent. It may be that in these cases, the person is playing against the powers of the beyond. Winning against these opponents may lead to good fortune in the afterlife.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately the article does not cite its sources.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.egyptianmyths.net/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.egyptianmyths.net/senet.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12270" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1799" RevisionGUID="2acfc025-4681-4f22-b0a4-ed39a5e8ef0a" CreationDate="2017-10-11T09:36:20.733" UserId="4105" Comment="Widened the scope of the question (&quot;Does the game appear in Egyptian mythology?&quot;)" Text="[Fey Ray's answer][1] to the question [What is the oldest traditional children's game?][1] is *Senet*, a game like checkers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does the game appear in Egyptian mythology? Is there a myth that explains where and how it came from?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/1748/4105" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12271" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1799" RevisionGUID="2acfc025-4681-4f22-b0a4-ed39a5e8ef0a" CreationDate="2017-10-11T09:36:20.733" UserId="4105" Comment="Widened the scope of the question (&quot;Does the game appear in Egyptian mythology?&quot;)" Text="Is there a myth that explains Senet's origins?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12272" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1799" RevisionGUID="2acfc025-4681-4f22-b0a4-ed39a5e8ef0a" CreationDate="2017-10-11T09:36:20.733" UserId="4105" Comment="Widened the scope of the question (&quot;Does the game appear in Egyptian mythology?&quot;)" Text="|egyptian|origins|games|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12273" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1799" RevisionGUID="2acfc025-4681-4f22-b0a4-ed39a5e8ef0a" CreationDate="2017-10-11T09:36:20.733" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 57 edit id of 492" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12274" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2633" RevisionGUID="702dae92-9a7d-45d5-8065-e564b2171b9b" CreationDate="2017-10-11T09:50:29.597" UserId="4105" Comment="added the myth-id tag" Text="|myth-identification|dragons|water|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12275" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2633" RevisionGUID="702dae92-9a7d-45d5-8065-e564b2171b9b" CreationDate="2017-10-11T09:50:29.597" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 3834 edit id of 501" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12276" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2422" RevisionGUID="ac6202ef-e2e4-47a7-90aa-639d77b0c17b" CreationDate="2017-10-11T11:09:54.657" UserId="4105" Comment="corrected spelling, fixed grammar, improved formatting" Text="Interesting question. I should say that for Latin and Greek I am not so sure the translations are all that different (I invite anyone to demonstrate the contrary). Now it would if either Solsdottir or Andejons could do what I will do here with Norse myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here, I will give something I know well: a Sumerian text passage with the ETCSL translation a translation by Samuel Noah Kramer and a translation but Thorkild Jacobsen.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First Sumerian is an old quite unmastered language different from a lot of modern languages due to the distance we probably miss a lot, including the fact Sumerian texts was probably sung and music does not carry well on stone table.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;ETCSL version:  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Enlil's commands are by far the loftiest, his {words}  {(1 ms. has instead:) commands} are holy, his utterances are immutable! The fate he decides is everlasting, his glance makes the mountains anxious, his ...... reaches (?) into the interior of the mountains.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jacobsen's version:   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Enlil, his orders august  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; into the far yonder,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; his words holy,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; his unalterable utterances  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; decisive  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; into the far  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; future,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; his lifting up the eyes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; taking in the mountains  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; his raising  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; of eyebeams  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;   scanning the highlands's heart&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kramer's version: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Enlil whose command is far-reaching, whise word is holy, the Lord whose pronouncement is unchangeable, who forever decrees destinies, whose lifted eyes scans the lands, whose lifted lights searches the heart of all the lands.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Let's take a look at Jacobsen translation. Very poetic in nature, one has to remind Jacobsen's classic book is &quot;Treasures of Darkness&quot; that helps to see the esoterical nature of this man and the poetic feeling of his translation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now let's compare with his friend/rival Samuel Noah Kramer's version. It is translated in prose, the vocabulary less rich, no more the &quot;his&quot; alliteration, but a who/whose alliteration.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ETCSL version is giving a compromise, the vocabulary is less rich than Jacobsen's one, no more inversion, but the 'his' alliteration is back. let's compare (line 4 of the original) :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - ETCSL: his utterances are immutable&#xD;&#xA; - Jacobsen: his unalterable utterances&#xD;&#xA; - Kramer: the Lord whose pronouncement is unchangeable&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now let's take a look at those lines 3/4 and precisely the Sumerian original:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 3.    igi il2-la-ni kur-re di-di&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4.    jic-nu11 il2-la-ni kur-cag4-ga igi jal2&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Line 3 igi illania&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - Line 4 ilani ... igi&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In all versions the alliteration present in the original Sumerian is rendered a little bit differently, the choice of vocabulary and placement of the words is different, we are going from: his *unalterable utterances* to *the Lord whose pronouncement is unchangeable*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The idea lying behind is the same, but the way it is rendered is quite different, especially when you compare the quite poetic nature of Jacobsen's version with the very earthly Kramer's version.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So when you are confronted with poetry, should you try to render in verse or in prose, should you use modern metric, or not, should you try to render the alliteration the tone of the words or the general sense, should you show your own skill at poetry (as Jacobsen) or a clear translation how do you pick your vocabulary. The prose is always easier to render just because you miss the poetic alliteration most of the time (does not mean translating prose is easy...). That is why different translations can have a different feeling hence DukeZhou's remark. That is true nowadays with let's say Shakespeare translations that you will find in prose or verses.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12277" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2422" RevisionGUID="ac6202ef-e2e4-47a7-90aa-639d77b0c17b" CreationDate="2017-10-11T11:09:54.657" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 2774 edit id of 496" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12278" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1586" RevisionGUID="191adfa7-e3bb-431b-9831-60ec46d96e4b" CreationDate="2017-10-11T11:51:15.497" UserId="4105" Comment="added the newly-minted concepts tag" Text="|greek|concepts|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12279" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1586" RevisionGUID="191adfa7-e3bb-431b-9831-60ec46d96e4b" CreationDate="2017-10-11T11:51:15.497" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 57 edit id of 499" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12280" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2453" RevisionGUID="b30f1fe0-0585-49e9-9318-4ba88a0297e4" CreationDate="2017-10-11T11:51:18.577" UserId="4105" Comment="added the history tag, as the question asks about mythology as it appears in a historical context. " Text="|norse|history|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12281" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2453" RevisionGUID="b30f1fe0-0585-49e9-9318-4ba88a0297e4" CreationDate="2017-10-11T11:51:18.577" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 57 edit id of 493" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12282" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="216" RevisionGUID="5877412a-5908-4d18-adcf-b13c3591dcef" CreationDate="2017-10-11T11:51:21.360" UserId="4105" Comment="added the newly-minted concepts tag" Text="|roman|concepts|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12283" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="216" RevisionGUID="5877412a-5908-4d18-adcf-b13c3591dcef" CreationDate="2017-10-11T11:51:21.360" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 57 edit id of 498" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12284" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2421" RevisionGUID="0ee9d591-f086-400d-8d0d-63a965c2b27a" CreationDate="2017-10-11T11:51:24.600" UserId="4105" Comment="the question was untagged, added translation tag" Text="|translation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12285" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2421" RevisionGUID="0ee9d591-f086-400d-8d0d-63a965c2b27a" CreationDate="2017-10-11T11:51:24.600" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 57 edit id of 495" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12286" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1385" RevisionGUID="0ddee0f8-6a9b-48ba-b8a5-347bf41eeb4c" CreationDate="2017-10-11T11:51:27.977" UserId="4105" Comment="added the newly-minted concepts tag" Text="|folkloristics|concepts|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12287" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1385" RevisionGUID="0ddee0f8-6a9b-48ba-b8a5-347bf41eeb4c" CreationDate="2017-10-11T11:51:27.977" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 57 edit id of 497" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12288" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2672" RevisionGUID="1796c0d3-2aa7-444d-bbee-587661f8ef8c" CreationDate="2017-10-11T11:51:32.243" UserId="4105" Comment="the question was untagged, added tags" Text="|concepts|heroism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12289" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2672" RevisionGUID="1796c0d3-2aa7-444d-bbee-587661f8ef8c" CreationDate="2017-10-11T11:51:32.243" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 57 edit id of 494" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12290" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1385" RevisionGUID="69969048-8669-4b5a-8ab1-20e93cffacad" CreationDate="2017-10-11T12:18:18.260" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|folkloristics|concepts|motifs|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12291" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1262" RevisionGUID="8f8c626e-4969-40c3-a839-eb3b703be466" CreationDate="2017-10-11T12:18:28.523" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|comparative|folkloristics|motifs|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12292" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3049" RevisionGUID="d73d8035-3f76-444d-bb81-c5521d7f86f6" CreationDate="2017-10-11T12:26:48.807" UserId="57" Text="The [trickster][1] appears to be one of the more popular archetypal motifs in mythology. The Greek Hermes (and Mercury, his Roman equivalent), the Egyptian Set, the Norse Loki, the Hindu Krishna, the Native American Coyote, the Yoruba Eshu and the West African Ananse are but a few examples.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is it about the trickster that made him so attractive to storytellers around the world?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickster" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12293" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3049" RevisionGUID="d73d8035-3f76-444d-bb81-c5521d7f86f6" CreationDate="2017-10-11T12:26:48.807" UserId="57" Text="Why is the trickster such a popular motif?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12294" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3049" RevisionGUID="d73d8035-3f76-444d-bb81-c5521d7f86f6" CreationDate="2017-10-11T12:26:48.807" UserId="57" Text="|motifs|archetypes|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12295" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3049" RevisionGUID="e909162c-e657-4930-852d-6330742d58d7" CreationDate="2017-10-11T12:33:15.830" UserId="57" Comment="added 174 characters in body" Text="The [trickster][1] appears to be one of the more popular archetypal motifs in mythology. The Greek Hermes and Dionysus, the Egyptian Set, the Norse Loki, the Hindu Krishna, the Native American Coyote, the Yoruba Eshu and the West African Ananse are but a few examples&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is it about the trickster that inspired storytellers from diverse cultures around the world?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; Wikipedia maintains a longer - but certainly not exhaustive - [list of fictional tricksters][2].&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickster&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fictional_tricksters" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12296" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2723" RevisionGUID="9be0ed66-d8b3-4ca7-a538-1747f2095f64" CreationDate="2017-10-11T18:31:09.083" UserId="4105" Comment="added the greek tag" Text="|greek|symbolism|odyssey|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12297" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2723" RevisionGUID="9be0ed66-d8b3-4ca7-a538-1747f2095f64" CreationDate="2017-10-11T18:31:09.083" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 2892 edit id of 500" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12298" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3049" RevisionGUID="43d5a563-260f-4a31-abe4-892f3bbe4a5d" CreationDate="2017-10-11T19:23:19.507" UserId="57" Comment="added 8 characters in body" Text="The [trickster][1] appears to be one of the more popular archetypal motifs in mythology. The Greek Hermes and Dionysus, the Egyptian Set, the Norse Loki, the Hindu Krishna, the Native American Coyote, the Yoruba Eshu and the West African Ananse are but a few examples&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is it about the trickster that inspired storytellers from so many diverse cultures around the world?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; Wikipedia maintains a longer - but certainly not exhaustive - [list of fictional tricksters][2].&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickster&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fictional_tricksters" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12299" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3050" RevisionGUID="f6d8602c-a086-494e-bfd7-02c4c3770491" CreationDate="2017-10-11T20:45:55.750" UserId="2892" Text="There isn't a much detailed information on dragons until the modern period, due to the sparser descriptions in ancient mythological canons vs. highly descriptive modern forms like the novel.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The fire breathing variant may derive from The Epic of Gilgamesh, if one identifies Humbaba as a dragon-like creature with &quot;a body covered in thorny scales&quot; [[Burckhardt][1]] whose &quot;mouth is death and his breath is fire!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first definitive mythological record fire-breathing dragon may come from [Beowulf][2], and the idea definitely got traction in Western folklore.  (By contrast, in [Chinese Dragons][3] are associated with water, and are often tasked with bringing rain. The famous Hindu dragon, [Vritra][4], is associated with drought, being a blocker of rivers.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In modern fiction, dragons have all kinds of powers, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are examples that can breathe fire underwater. But for the purist, it might be worth looking at Tolkien, who was a respected scholar, and may be said to have commented on the subject in the form of Smaug.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In &quot;Fire and Water&quot;, the 14th Chapter of *The Hobbit*, it is said of Smaug that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Smaug's] enemies were on an island in deep water-too deep and dark and cool for his liking. If he plunged into it, a vapour and a steam would arise enough to cover all the land with a mist for days; but the lake was mightier than he, it would quench him before he could pass through. &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [The Hobbit (1937)][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is strongly implied that to be quenched by the lake would be death to Smaug, based on the elemental nature of such powers in Tolkien.  The description of Smaug's death, albeit by a black arrow to the heart, reinforces the power of water over fire:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Full on the town he fell. His last throes splintered it to sparks and gledes. The lake roared in. A vast steam leaped up, white in the sudden dark under the moon. There was a hiss, a gushing whirl, and then silence. And that was the end of Smaug and Esgaroth... &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [ibid.][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The is a solid basis for Tolkien's choice in that water is generally, and alchemically, to conquer fire--rains quench wildfires, oceanic magma is &quot;turned to stone&quot; by contact with water.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Chinese Wu Xing][6] is particularly instructive in this regard.  In the linked image you will note that fire &quot;insults&quot; water, and that water &quot;destroys&quot; fire. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Traditionally these two elements are mutually exclusive.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humbaba#Description&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dragon_(Beowulf)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_dragon&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vritra&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://reader.homestead.com/hobbit_chapter14.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_Xing#/media/File:FiveElementsCycleBalanceImbalance_02_plain.svg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12300" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3050" RevisionGUID="f2738c12-3fd8-4d05-8ec7-ed616897aa9b" CreationDate="2017-10-11T20:56:45.390" UserId="2892" Comment="added 11 characters in body" Text="There isn't a much detailed information on dragons until the modern period, due to the sparser descriptions in ancient mythological canons vs. highly descriptive modern forms like the novel.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The fire breathing variant may derive from The Epic of Gilgamesh, if one identifies Humbaba as a dragon-like creature with &quot;a body covered in thorny scales&quot; [[Burckhardt][1]] whose &quot;mouth is death and his breath is fire!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first definitive mythological record fire-breathing dragon may come from [Beowulf][2], and the idea definitely got traction in Western folklore.  (By contrast, in [Chinese Dragons][3] are associated with water, and are often tasked with bringing rain. The famous Hindu dragon, [Vritra][4], is associated with drought, being a blocker of rivers.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In modern fiction, dragons have all kinds of powers, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are examples that can breathe fire underwater. But for the purist, it might be worth looking at Tolkien, who was a respected scholar, and may be said to have commented on the subject in the form of Smaug.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In &quot;Fire and Water&quot;, the 14th Chapter of *The Hobbit*, it is said of Smaug that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Smaug's] enemies were on an island in deep water-too deep and dark and cool for his liking. If he plunged into it, a vapour and a steam would arise enough to cover all the land with a mist for days; but the lake was mightier than he, it would quench him before he could pass through. &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [The Hobbit (1937)][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is strongly implied that to be quenched by the lake would be death to Smaug, based on the elemental nature of such powerful entities in Tolkien.  The description of Smaug's death, albeit by a black arrow to the heart, reinforces the power of water over fire:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Full on the town he fell. His last throes splintered it to sparks and gledes. The lake roared in. A vast steam leaped up, white in the sudden dark under the moon. There was a hiss, a gushing whirl, and then silence. And that was the end of Smaug and Esgaroth... &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [ibid.][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The is a solid basis for Tolkien's choice in that water is generally, and alchemically, to conquer fire--rains quench wildfires, oceanic magma is &quot;turned to stone&quot; by contact with water.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Chinese Wu Xing][6] is particularly instructive in this regard.  In the linked image you will note that fire &quot;insults&quot; water, and that water &quot;destroys&quot; fire. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Traditionally these two elements are mutually exclusive.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humbaba#Description&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dragon_(Beowulf)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_dragon&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vritra&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://reader.homestead.com/hobbit_chapter14.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_Xing#/media/File:FiveElementsCycleBalanceImbalance_02_plain.svg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12301" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3051" RevisionGUID="fe077732-26ee-414c-b470-fcd477fd8ce9" CreationDate="2017-10-12T04:27:38.457" UserId="3373" Text="Whether the &quot;genius loci&quot; developed into &quot;genii&quot; or whether they were parallel developments is difficult to say. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Roman belief-systems and spirituality it was the complete character, nature, and substance of the person concerned, it was resemblant of what Ka was for the Egyptians (*Bator, Wiesław: Religious Studies Perspective on Egyptian Beliefs*), thus a form of a soul. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to neoplatonics Gods and Goddesses had their souls (or geniuses) superior to that of mortals (*sources: Iamblich, Chalden Oracles of Julian the Theurgist etc.*), in line with the Egyptian teaching that Ka of the Gods surpasses that of people. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Genius was something that was given at birth, the female version of the Genii was Juno, as both male and female spirit-natures expressed themselves differently. In other words genii is also a form of a guiding-spirit, a personal totem, or a Super Ego if you like, akin to individuation of the Selbst (Self) in Jungian hermetic alchemy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example one neoplatonic prayed that his son receive the &quot;Soul of an archangel&quot; or a Ka-Genius of a higher sort. Whether the genius was malleable and formed by deeds, perceptions, decisions and all what makes us human in the eyes of Roman belief-systems is difficult to say. But I would incline towards the belief that it was possible to &quot;refashion&quot; one's genii in order to perfect oneself. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For a modern perspective I would recommend reading a beautiful chapter in *Giorgio Agamben's &quot;Profanations&quot;  - On Genius.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12302" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3052" RevisionGUID="767af73d-f647-4306-bcc0-b29db2ff94f3" CreationDate="2017-10-12T04:33:59.920" UserId="4182" Text="When Ishtar proposes to Gilgamesh, he articulates the stories of her previous lovers who suffered badly as a consequence of being with her. However, there is one of them who is named Ishullanu that when Ishtar asks to be with her he strongly refuses. What kind of a man and for what possible reason would reject a goddess like Ishtar? Could it be the same reason as Gilgamesh's or is there a background reason for it since it is not explicit in the epic? Or since Ishullanu also mentions that he does not want to be subject to slander and insults could he be married to someone else?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The following lines are my reference,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;0 my Ishullanu, let us taste your vigour:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Put out your 'hand' and stroke my quim!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;But Ishullanu said to you:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;'''Me! What do you want of me?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Did my mother not bake? Have I not eaten,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;that now I should eat the bread of slander and insults?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Should I let only rushes cover me in winter?&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12303" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3052" RevisionGUID="767af73d-f647-4306-bcc0-b29db2ff94f3" CreationDate="2017-10-12T04:33:59.920" UserId="4182" Text="Why did Ishullanu refuse to make love to Ishtar?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12304" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3052" RevisionGUID="767af73d-f647-4306-bcc0-b29db2ff94f3" CreationDate="2017-10-12T04:33:59.920" UserId="4182" Text="|gilgamesh|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12305" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3052" RevisionGUID="df9682ff-4e6e-461b-9658-ab7321b02949" CreationDate="2017-10-12T05:08:11.223" UserId="4182" Comment="edited body" Text="When Ishtar proposes to Gilgamesh, he articulates the stories of her previous lovers who suffered badly as a consequence of being with her. However, there is one of them who is named Ishullanu that when Ishtar asks to be with her he strongly refuses. What kind of a man and for what possible reason would reject a goddess like Ishtar? Could it be the same reason as Gilgamesh's or is there a background reason for it since it is not explicit in the epic? Or since Ishullanu also mentioned that he did not want to be subject to slander and insults could he be married to someone else?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The following lines are my reference,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;0 my Ishullanu, let us taste your vigour:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Put out your 'hand' and stroke my quim!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;But Ishullanu said to you:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;'''Me! What do you want of me?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Did my mother not bake? Have I not eaten,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;that now I should eat the bread of slander and insults?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Should I let only rushes cover me in winter?&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12312" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3054" RevisionGUID="fcd38118-622a-40e0-b209-070a50ce422c" CreationDate="2017-10-13T16:05:56.903" UserId="4108" Text="I know he was the king of the fairies but what was his purpose and how did he rule?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I looked him up on google, but none of my searches made any sense." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12313" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3054" RevisionGUID="fcd38118-622a-40e0-b209-070a50ce422c" CreationDate="2017-10-13T16:05:56.903" UserId="4108" Text="Who was the Erlking?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12314" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3054" RevisionGUID="fcd38118-622a-40e0-b209-070a50ce422c" CreationDate="2017-10-13T16:05:56.903" UserId="4108" Text="|fairies|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12315" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3050" RevisionGUID="ad0d8be9-bfcc-49f9-b1f2-8b299b3075c2" CreationDate="2017-10-13T16:44:37.817" UserId="2892" Comment="Removed Humbaba and added a note on Tiamat/dragon as an aquatic deity." Text="There isn't a much detailed information on dragons until the modern period, due to the sparser descriptions in ancient mythological canons vs. highly descriptive modern forms like the novel.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first definitive mythological record fire-breathing dragon may come from [Beowulf][1], and the idea definitely got traction in Western folklore.  (By contrast, [Chinese Dragons][2] are associated with water, can take the form of fish, and are often tasked with bringing rain. The famous Hindu dragon, [Vritra][3], is associated with drought, being a blocker of rivers. [Tiamat][4], sometimes depicted as a dragon, was the goddess of the salt sea.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In modern fiction, dragons have all kinds of powers, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are examples that can breathe fire underwater. But for the purist, it might be worth looking at Tolkien, who was a respected scholar, and may be said to have commented on the subject in the form of Smaug.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In &quot;Fire and Water&quot;, the 14th Chapter of *The Hobbit*, it is said of Smaug that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Smaug's] enemies were on an island in deep water-too deep and dark and cool for his liking. If he plunged into it, a vapour and a steam would arise enough to cover all the land with a mist for days; but the lake was mightier than he, it would quench him before he could pass through. &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [The Hobbit (1937)][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is strongly implied that to be quenched by the lake would be death to Smaug, based on the elemental nature of such powerful entities in Tolkien.  The description of Smaug's death, albeit by a black arrow to the heart, reinforces the power of water over fire:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Full on the town he fell. His last throes splintered it to sparks and gledes. The lake roared in. A vast steam leaped up, white in the sudden dark under the moon. There was a hiss, a gushing whirl, and then silence. And that was the end of Smaug and Esgaroth... &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [ibid.][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The is a solid basis for Tolkien's choice in that water is generally, and alchemically, to conquer fire--rains quench wildfires, oceanic magma is &quot;turned to stone&quot; by contact with water.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Chinese Wu Xing][6] is particularly instructive in this regard.  In the linked image you will note that fire &quot;insults&quot; water, and that water &quot;destroys&quot; fire. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Traditionally these two elements are mutually exclusive.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dragon_(Beowulf)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_dragon&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vritra&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://reader.homestead.com/hobbit_chapter14.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_Xing#/media/File:FiveElementsCycleBalanceImbalance_02_plain.svg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12317" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3055" RevisionGUID="d4beec57-9dca-44bf-a395-45030de104bf" CreationDate="2017-10-15T09:47:01.583" UserId="3230" Text="The tale of the Erlking follows a common motif in Germanic folklore; a forest-dwelling evil creature, ensnaring human victims. Unfortunately, neither Herder's *Erl King's Daughter* nor Goethe's *Erlkönig* includes details on the Erlking's reign or realm or attempt to explore the possible motivations or purpose of the creature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What both poems have in common is the creature's method of luring its victims; the promise of gifts. Further, the stories take place in or very near a forest, and the victim doesn't survive in either one. And, both poems tell us of the Erlking's daughters, although Goethe reduces them from main characters in Herder's version to a single reference. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://germanstories.vcu.edu/goethe/erl_dual.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12318" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3055" RevisionGUID="160cc0be-227b-4b0d-b13f-f5f70b3472f2" CreationDate="2017-10-15T09:52:23.333" UserId="3230" Comment="added 65 characters in body" Text="The tale of the Erlking follows a common motif in Germanic folklore; a forest-dwelling evil creature, ensnaring human victims. Unfortunately, neither Johann Gottfried Herder's *Erl King's Daughter* nor Johann Wolfgang von Goethe's *Erlkönig* includes details on the Erlking's realm or attempt to explore the motivations or purpose of the creature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What both poems have in common is the creature's method of luring its victims; the promise of gifts. Further, the stories take place in or very near a forest, and the victim doesn't survive in either one. And, both poems tell us of the Erlking's daughters, although Goethe reduces them from main characters in Herder's version to a single reference. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think that's all the details we can extract from the poems." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12323" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3056" RevisionGUID="ef65c377-824b-4080-abc6-278d7db90278" CreationDate="2017-10-15T11:27:58.347" UserId="3230" Text="Why do people wear elaborate masks and costumes to celebrate Halloween? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did people dress up during the pagan festivals that inspired Halloween, or is the practice a modern addition?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12324" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3056" RevisionGUID="ef65c377-824b-4080-abc6-278d7db90278" CreationDate="2017-10-15T11:27:58.347" UserId="3230" Text="Why do we dress up to celebrate Halloween?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12325" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3056" RevisionGUID="ef65c377-824b-4080-abc6-278d7db90278" CreationDate="2017-10-15T11:27:58.347" UserId="3230" Text="|traditions|halloween|rituals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12326" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3057" RevisionGUID="99f3db9a-ad0c-45db-b703-2f88459ac143" CreationDate="2017-10-15T16:05:10.207" UserId="3741" Text="On the Wikipedia page for [Halloween Costumes][1] it says:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; An early reference to wearing costumes at Halloween comes from Scotland in 1585.&#xA;&#xA;Looking at the [external links on the page][2] I found something that sort of explains this. &#xA;&#xA;&gt; As the centuries wore on, people began dressing like these dreadful creatures, performing antics in exchange for food and drink. This practice is called mumming, from which the practice of trick-or-treating evolved. &#xA;&#xA;This seems to be why we do it. In Samhain (the Celtic pagan ritual from which a large portion of Halloween tradition is derived), people would dress up. So yes, the tradition does come from the pagan holidays that it is based on.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween_costume&#xA;  [2]: http://www.loc.gov/folklife/halloween.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12328" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3059" RevisionGUID="33a22475-9659-4de1-9a14-0a775073c364" CreationDate="2017-10-15T16:23:40.220" UserId="4271" Text="When Typhon appeared at Mount Olympus, the gods flew to Egypt in fear. Zeus didn't as he was frozen and had his shins stolen by the storm giant. Hermes got them back and in his anger, defeated Typhon." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12333" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3063" RevisionGUID="19dfddeb-6f0a-4eae-883f-4aac3745be94" CreationDate="2017-10-15T18:01:06.950" UserId="4271" Text="I am especially interested in acquiring any information about a supposed child that came of this union." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12334" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3063" RevisionGUID="19dfddeb-6f0a-4eae-883f-4aac3745be94" CreationDate="2017-10-15T18:01:06.950" UserId="4271" Text="I heard about a myth saying Zeus had sex with a deer, but after hours of research, I hold nothing. Can anyone tell me of this mythos?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12335" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3063" RevisionGUID="19dfddeb-6f0a-4eae-883f-4aac3745be94" CreationDate="2017-10-15T18:01:06.950" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|zeus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12341" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3063" RevisionGUID="0ca87fe3-c122-41c3-980c-83cdf3f99bfc" CreationDate="2017-10-15T19:42:13.690" UserId="57" Comment="added 135 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="I heard about a myth saying Zeus had sex with a deer, but after hours of research, I hold nothing. Can anyone tell me of this myth?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am especially interested in acquiring any information about a supposed child that came of this union." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12342" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3063" RevisionGUID="0ca87fe3-c122-41c3-980c-83cdf3f99bfc" CreationDate="2017-10-15T19:42:13.690" UserId="57" Comment="added 135 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Is there a tale of Zeus having sex with a deer?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12343" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3063" RevisionGUID="0ca87fe3-c122-41c3-980c-83cdf3f99bfc" CreationDate="2017-10-15T19:42:13.690" UserId="57" Comment="added 135 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|greek|myth-identification|zeus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12344" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="675" RevisionGUID="b383e40e-433e-4fec-b48d-7615b2e5d4ba" CreationDate="2017-10-15T23:33:16.827" UserId="3230" Comment="added the rituals tag" Text="|norse|sacrifice|funerary-practices|rituals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12345" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="675" RevisionGUID="b383e40e-433e-4fec-b48d-7615b2e5d4ba" CreationDate="2017-10-15T23:33:16.827" Comment="Proposed by 3230 approved by 967, 29 edit id of 503" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12346" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1311" RevisionGUID="452cd601-9606-400c-8afd-86f54728bc6c" CreationDate="2017-10-15T23:33:28.337" UserId="3230" Comment="added the rituals tag" Text="|norse|funerary-practices|rituals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12347" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1311" RevisionGUID="452cd601-9606-400c-8afd-86f54728bc6c" CreationDate="2017-10-15T23:33:28.337" Comment="Proposed by 3230 approved by 967, 29 edit id of 502" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12351" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3059" RevisionGUID="d8428e67-452a-44c2-9004-e4b27860b7ab" CreationDate="2017-10-16T07:26:15.283" UserId="3230" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="When Typhon appeared at Mount Olympus, the gods flew to Egypt in fear. Zeus didn't as he was frozen and had his shins stolen by the storm giant. Hermes got them back and in his anger Zeus defeated Typhon." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12352" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3068" RevisionGUID="a7fe72d2-10ac-4ef8-a2fc-458a3b7635df" CreationDate="2017-10-16T07:36:57.893" UserId="3230" Text="On Halloween, children in masks and costumes visit houses and ask for treats, using the phrase &quot;trick or treat&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How did the tradition get started, and does it stem from the pagan festivals that inspired Halloween?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12353" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3068" RevisionGUID="a7fe72d2-10ac-4ef8-a2fc-458a3b7635df" CreationDate="2017-10-16T07:36:57.893" UserId="3230" Text="Why do we &quot;trick or treat&quot; on Halloween?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12354" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3068" RevisionGUID="a7fe72d2-10ac-4ef8-a2fc-458a3b7635df" CreationDate="2017-10-16T07:36:57.893" UserId="3230" Text="|traditions|halloween|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12360" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3069" RevisionGUID="af514d4e-a6dc-4f1b-a3b1-d1200b7617f5" CreationDate="2017-10-16T12:31:08.397" UserId="57" Text="In Book VI of the Odyssey, the sea-nymph Eidothea identifies her father Proteus, the [Old Man of the Sea][1], as an Egyptian: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;'Stranger,' replied she, 'I will make it all quite clear to you. There is an old immortal who lives under the sea hereabouts and whose name is Proteus. He is an Egyptian, and people say he is my father; he is Neptune's head man and knows every inch of ground all over the bottom of the sea. If you can snare him and hold him tight, he will tell you about your voyage, what courses you are to take, and how you are to sail the sea so as to reach your home. He will also tell you, if you so will, all that has been going on at your house both good and bad, while you have been away on your long and dangerous journey.' &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Homer, *The Odyssey*. Translated by Samuel Butler&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I wonder why Homer assumes an Egyptian origin for Proteus. Is there an Egyptian deity or mythical creature that fits the Old Man of the Sea motif?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Man_of_the_Sea" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12361" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3069" RevisionGUID="af514d4e-a6dc-4f1b-a3b1-d1200b7617f5" CreationDate="2017-10-16T12:31:08.397" UserId="57" Text="Is there an Egyptian Old Man of the Sea?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12362" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3069" RevisionGUID="af514d4e-a6dc-4f1b-a3b1-d1200b7617f5" CreationDate="2017-10-16T12:31:08.397" UserId="57" Text="|greek|egyptian|odyssey|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12363" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3070" RevisionGUID="c49d4345-6164-4dc1-b126-d2ec3b5e799e" CreationDate="2017-10-17T00:23:04.903" UserId="3741" Text="As I briefly mentioned in my answer on [your other question][1], this too comes from the traditions of old. &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Performing antics in exchange for food and drink. This practice is called mumming, from which the practice of trick-or-treating evolved.&#xA;&#xA;This means that &quot;trick-or-treating&quot; once actually had to do with tricks. Not just a weird saying. More of an in-depth explanation comes from [Today I Found Out][2]:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; beginning in the Middle-Ages, children and sometimes poor adults would dress up in the aforementioned costumes and go around door to door during Hallowmas begging for food or money in exchange for songs and prayers, often said on behalf of the dead ... ultimately gave rise to guising in the U.K. starting in the 19th century, with children dressing up and begging for things like fruit and money.  In order to earn this token, they’d often tell jokes, sing songs, play an instrument, recite a poem, or perform in some other way for the amusement ... Trick or treating instead of guising on Halloween popped up in North America in the 1920s and 1930s, first in the western half of the continent. The term and the practice slowly spread, with a brief respite during WWII.  After the WWII sugar rations were lifted, Halloween’s popularity saw a huge spike and within five years trick or treating was a near ubiquitous practice throughout North America.&#xA;&#xA;You can look at the article to learn more.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/3056/3741&#xA;  [2]: http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2012/10/how-the-tradition-of-trick-or-treating-got-started/#EUKYSQrOewqKpH6P.99" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12366" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3071" RevisionGUID="01b6368c-9c3b-41a8-95fe-275e44cbb253" CreationDate="2017-10-17T19:20:07.620" UserId="4280" Text="Was orion gay? in this common myth of Artemis and Orion it says I quote: &quot;Orion loved the women as if he were their brother, and with the men he formed his most intimate and physically satisfying attachments.&quot; Here's the link to check it out yourself. https://people.ucsc.edu/~rosewood/writing/tales/orion.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12367" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3071" RevisionGUID="01b6368c-9c3b-41a8-95fe-275e44cbb253" CreationDate="2017-10-17T19:20:07.620" UserId="4280" Text="Greek Mythology: Orion Gay?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12368" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3071" RevisionGUID="01b6368c-9c3b-41a8-95fe-275e44cbb253" CreationDate="2017-10-17T19:20:07.620" UserId="4280" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12370" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3071" RevisionGUID="6da10963-a675-4a28-9519-9b727c7ddff0" CreationDate="2017-10-18T07:15:26.793" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 22 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="In this [retelling of the Artemis and Orion myth][1], it says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Orion loved the women as if he were their brother, and with the men he formed his most intimate and physically satisfying attachments&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was Orion gay?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://people.ucsc.edu/~rosewood/writing/tales/orion.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12371" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3071" RevisionGUID="6da10963-a675-4a28-9519-9b727c7ddff0" CreationDate="2017-10-18T07:15:26.793" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 22 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Was Orion, the huntsman, gay?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12372" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3071" RevisionGUID="6da10963-a675-4a28-9519-9b727c7ddff0" CreationDate="2017-10-18T07:15:26.793" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 22 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12373" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3071" RevisionGUID="8cc23212-8641-4b0f-aaf0-3c23873fca1e" CreationDate="2017-10-18T07:46:18.447" UserId="57" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="In this [retelling of the Artemis and Orion myth][1], it says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Orion loved the women as if he were their brother, and with the men he formed his most intimate and physically satisfying attachments.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was Orion gay?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://people.ucsc.edu/~rosewood/writing/tales/orion.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12374" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3072" RevisionGUID="c53faaef-2574-46f2-9972-8a662aa32ae8" CreationDate="2017-10-18T07:46:21.290" UserId="57" Text="It is not uncommon for Greek mythological figures to have both male and female lovers. That said, all of Orion's sexual relationships mentioned in the myths assembled on [theoi.com][1] seem to be with women. A few examples:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Women of Tanagra ... often I adorned [with songs] our ancestor Kephisos with my words, often great Orion and the fifty sons of high strength whom he fathered by intercourse with the fair Nymphai (Nymphs) [i.e. daughters of the river Kephisos (Cephisus)].&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Corinna, Fragment 655 (trans. Campbell, Vol. Greek Lyric IV)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Artemis slew Orion on Delos. He was said to be a Gigas (Giant) of massive proportions born of Ge (Gaea, the Earth), but Pherekydes (Pherecydes) [C6th B.C. poet] says that his parents were Poseidon and Euryale. From Poseidon he was given the power of walking across the sea. His first wife was Side, who for vying with Hera in shapeliness was thrown by her into Haides' realm. After that Orion went to Khios (Chios) where he courted Oinopion's (Oenopion's) daughter Merope. Oinopion, however, got him drunk, and, as he slept, blinded him and tossed him out on the beach. He made his way to the bronze workshop of Hephaistos (Hephaestus), where he seized a boy [Kedalion (Cedalion)], set him on his shoulders, and ordered him to guide him toward the east. Once there, he looked up and was completely healed by the rays of Helios (the Sun). Immediately he started back to confront Oinopion. But Poseidon had provided Oinopion with a house beneath the earth, built by Hephaistos. Meanwhile, Eos (the Dawn), whom Aphrodite taunted with constant passion as punishment for sleeping with Ares, fell in love with Orion and took him off with her to Delos. There he was killed, according to some, for challenging Artemis to a discus match. Others say that Artemis shot him as he was forcing his attention on Oupis (Opis), a virgin who had come from the Hyperboreans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 1. 25 (trans. Aldrich)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aëro, so the story runs, was the daughter of Oinopion (Oenopion) and the nymph Helike (Helice). Orion, the son of Hyrieos (Hyrieus), fell in love with her, and asked her father for her hand; for her sake he rendered the island where they lived habitable--it was formerly full of wild beasts--, and he also gathered together much booty from the folk who lived there and brought it as a bridal-gift for her. Oinopion however constantly kept putting off the time of the wedding, for he hated the idea of having such a man as his daughter's husband. Then Orion, maddened by strong drink, broke in the doors of the chamber where the girl was lying asleep, and as he was offering violence to her Oinopion attacked him and put out his eyes with a burning brand.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Parthenius, Love Romances 20 (trans.Gaselee)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;[The goddess Harmonia laments her marriage to a mortal man :] ‘I will proclaim how Orion loved Erigeneia [Eos the Dawn], and I will recall the match of Kephalos (Cephalus); if I go to the misty sunset, my comfort is Selene herself who felt the same for Endymion upon Latmos.’&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Nonnus, Dionysiaca 4. 192 ff (trans. Rouse)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This of course does not exclude the possibility that the huntsman had male lovers as well. It does however invalidate the first part of your quote. Orion's relationships with women were certainly not limited to brotherly love.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Gigante/GiganteOrion.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12375" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3073" RevisionGUID="e50b78ae-ee59-423f-adcb-27d7675f600e" CreationDate="2017-10-18T08:40:06.007" UserId="57" Text="In the second episode of the first season of the television series [Top of the Lake][1], a beautiful Maori legend is mentioned: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; You know there's a,  &#xD;&#xA;A Maori legend about this lake  &#xD;&#xA;That says there's a demon's heart at the bottom of it.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It beats, it makes the lake rise and fall every five minutes.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; \- Does it rise and fall?  &#xD;&#xA;\- Yeah. Yeah, it does.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It was this, um, a warrior  &#xD;&#xA;That rescued a maiden from a giant demon called tipua.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And he set fire to the demon's body while it slept  &#xD;&#xA;And burnt everything but his heart.  &#xD;&#xA;And the fat melting from the body formed a trough.  &#xD;&#xA;And the snow from the mountains ran down to fill it to form this lake.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm wondering if the story is based on actual Maori tales, or if it was invented by the show's writers. The Wikipedia article on [tipua][2], the only name mentioned in the story, is not helpful. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2103085/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipua" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12376" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3073" RevisionGUID="e50b78ae-ee59-423f-adcb-27d7675f600e" CreationDate="2017-10-18T08:40:06.007" UserId="57" Text="Is there a Maori legend about a demon's heart at the bottom of a lake?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12377" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3073" RevisionGUID="e50b78ae-ee59-423f-adcb-27d7675f600e" CreationDate="2017-10-18T08:40:06.007" UserId="57" Text="|myth-identification|maori|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12378" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3073" RevisionGUID="c4b9e4f1-aab6-4148-99cc-777955bb305f" CreationDate="2017-10-18T08:52:14.460" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 13 characters in body" Text="In the second episode of the first season of the television series [Top of the Lake][1], a beautiful Maori legend is mentioned: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; You know there's a,  &#xD;&#xA;A Maori legend about this lake  &#xD;&#xA;That says there's a demon's heart at the bottom of it.  &#xD;&#xA;It beats, it makes the lake rise and fall every five minutes.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Does it rise and fall?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Yeah. Yeah, it does.  &#xD;&#xA; It was this, um, a warrior  &#xD;&#xA;That rescued a maiden from a giant demon called tipua.  &#xD;&#xA;And he set fire to the demon's body while it slept  &#xD;&#xA;And burnt everything but his heart.  &#xD;&#xA;And the fat melting from the body formed a trough.  &#xD;&#xA;And the snow from the mountains ran down to fill it to form this lake.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm wondering if the story is based on actual Maori tales, or if it was invented by the show's writers. The Wikipedia article on [tipua][2], the only name mentioned in the story, is not helpful. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2103085/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipua" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12379" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3074" RevisionGUID="6cc39334-0e0c-48ea-bbc4-e5093352f256" CreationDate="2017-10-18T09:45:55.727" UserId="3244" Text="That depends on your inference, in my opinion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both Krishna and Hermes were tricksters and thieves while in their childhood. Krishna stole and ate butter ( Which led to him being shackled to two pots by his adopted mother, but that is a different story ), while Hermes did what he did with Apollo's cows. Both were musicians. Both were related to Bovines (Hermes ate them. Krishna was a cowherd) . Both have overcome people said to be undefeatable ( Hermes had Argus close his eyes. Krishna defeated Kansa and his wrestler ).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, that is where the similarity ends. Hermes, while being an Olympian, is not seen as so important as the Big Three. However, Krishna is called the *Poornavatar*, the one who is most similar to Vishnu, the preserver. Hermes' actions had consequences. What Krishna does is *Leela*, neither vice nor virtue. Hermes is a god, and immortal. Krishna, while worshiped as a god, was born and lived as a mortal, and died due to a random poisoned arrow.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, while there are similarities, there are differences too. Which one outweighs the other, that is your choice.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are, as far as I know, no such scholarly articles, unless you count Wattpad stories as such." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12380" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3075" RevisionGUID="f12367a0-2ef1-4027-9427-21ec77c288bf" CreationDate="2017-10-18T11:53:18.443" UserId="3230" Text="One of the superstitions in [13 Halloween Superstitions &amp; Traditions Explained][1] is about bats: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Medieval folklore also described bats as witches' familiars, and seeing a bat on Halloween was considered to be quite an ominous sign. One myth was that if a bat was spotted flying around one's house three times, it meant that someone in that house would soon die. Another myth was that if a bat flew into your house on Halloween, it was a sign that your house was haunted because ghosts had let the bat in.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My searches for tales that feature bats as witches' familiars weren't successful. Most results seemed to be about bat familiars in games (e.g. [Castlevania][2]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Could you point me to actual folklore tales?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.livescience.com/16677-halloween-superstitions-traditions.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://castlevania.wikia.com/wiki/Bat_Familiar" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12381" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3075" RevisionGUID="f12367a0-2ef1-4027-9427-21ec77c288bf" CreationDate="2017-10-18T11:53:18.443" UserId="3230" Text="Tales of bats as witches' familiars?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12382" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3075" RevisionGUID="f12367a0-2ef1-4027-9427-21ec77c288bf" CreationDate="2017-10-18T11:53:18.443" UserId="3230" Text="|myth-identification|folklore|animals|witchcraft|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12383" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1903" RevisionGUID="2d9e8442-299b-4555-ace7-057f247e543e" CreationDate="2017-10-18T11:53:38.177" UserId="3230" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|magic|witchcraft|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12385" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3075" RevisionGUID="f37348bb-d234-4601-b941-462728bce186" CreationDate="2017-10-18T13:16:50.920" UserId="3230" Comment="added 65 characters in body" Text="One of the superstitions in the article [13 Halloween Superstitions &amp; Traditions Explained][1] is about bats: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Medieval folklore also described bats as witches' familiars, and seeing a bat on Halloween was considered to be quite an ominous sign. One myth was that if a bat was spotted flying around one's house three times, it meant that someone in that house would soon die. Another myth was that if a bat flew into your house on Halloween, it was a sign that your house was haunted because ghosts had let the bat in.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm very interested in reading such tales, but my searches so far have been successful. Most search results seemed to be about bat familiars in games (e.g. [Castlevania][2]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Could you point me to actual folklore tales that feature bats as witches' familiars?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.livescience.com/16677-halloween-superstitions-traditions.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://castlevania.wikia.com/wiki/Bat_Familiar" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12386" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3076" RevisionGUID="bbb169fd-05d8-4276-92de-aa265b58581e" CreationDate="2017-10-18T17:35:08.457" UserId="3373" Text="Interesting Question, in the Orphic Hymns there is a following invocation to Proteus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Oh Keeper of the keys to the chambers of the deeps, By whose&#xD;&#xA;&gt; illustrious power all Nature's laws are clearly shown, Proteus, Master&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the Sea Change, who transforms the unseen and known by His will,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; All honored, Wise One who knows all that was, and all that is, and all&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that shall be as Time unfolds her wings, For all things Nature first&#xD;&#xA;&gt; consigned to You and all things are confined to Your essence, Come,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Blessed Father, and attend our rites, And grant our happy lives a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; prosperous end.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Proteus in fact in identified with Hades, **given the Egyptian descent of Orphic mysteries we would have to reach for The Egyptian Book of the Dead**; Proteus might be identified with one of the lords of the underworld (think cosmic space, the wateways of universe) Similar to Hekate Drakaina who was the &quot;key-holder of all the passageways of the universe and Earth&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He might be an ancient Egyptian magoi-priest, that grew to a role of a deity,  or a deity that cannot be clearly identified; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Orphic Hymns as I believe are a dynamic Transposition of forces that undergo hypostatic rephrasing during god-working (theurgy), delineated by words, hymns, singing, processions, libations, sacrifices; The mystoi intuitively understands and therefore intitiated, consecrates, and acts; Thus at once we are dealing with persons, Gods, and awe-inspiring, alter-human, supra-human forces that are merely semiotized. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a side-note there is a story of 'The shipwrecked Sailor' (**The Literature of Ancient Egyptians, William Kelly Simpson, Faulkner, Wente, Simpson**) , a tale from the Middle Egyptian Kingdom in which an ancient serpent tales a tale of woe of his loss and his family to a ship-wrecked Egyptian, and then as a good father equips him with splendor, enriches him and sends him back to the land of Khem with blessings. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12387" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3077" RevisionGUID="1bbedee3-8d1e-459b-8dde-5af04d3f5284" CreationDate="2017-10-19T00:08:52.870" UserId="1241" Text="Here is how the &quot;trick or treat&quot; of Halloween first caught on:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The phrase trick-or-treat was first used in America in 1927, with the traditions brought over to America by immigrants. Guising gave way to threatening pranks in exchange for sweets.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; After a brief lull during the sugar rations in World War Two, Halloween became a widespread holiday that revolved around children, with newly built suburbs providing a safe place for children to roam free.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Costumes became more adventurous - in Victorian ages, they were influenced by gothic themes in literature, and dressed as bats and ghosts or what seemed exotic, such as an Egyptian pharoah. Later, costumes became influenced by pop culture, and became more sexualised in the 1970s. - [What is the story behind Halloween and why do children trick or treat?][1] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/what-is-halloween-and-why-do-children-trick-or-treat/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12388" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3068" RevisionGUID="0dcec121-1422-40e8-b4ba-3ad30eb618be" CreationDate="2017-10-19T01:19:23.787" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|origins|traditions|halloween|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12389" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3076" RevisionGUID="a042056c-9752-439f-9ab9-f9bec23b3a9a" CreationDate="2017-10-19T04:33:39.523" UserId="3373" Comment="added 1214 characters in body" Text="Interesting Question, in the Orphic Hymns there is a following invocation to Proteus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Oh Keeper of the keys to the chambers of the deeps, By whose&#xD;&#xA;&gt; illustrious power all Nature's laws are clearly shown, Proteus, Master&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the Sea Change, who transforms the unseen and known by His will,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; All honored, Wise One who knows all that was, and all that is, and all&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that shall be as Time unfolds her wings, For all things Nature first&#xD;&#xA;&gt; consigned to You and all things are confined to Your essence, Come,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Blessed Father, and attend our rites, And grant our happy lives a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; prosperous end.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;OR alternatively, translation from a Polish translation of Orphic Hymns from &quot;Bibliotheca Curiosa&quot; by Emilia Żybert (Atut: Wrocław 2012) from Orph. H 23-25: Nereus, Nereids and Proteus related to Poseidon as Sea (Orph. H. 22):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; XXV&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[Hymn] to Proteus (also called the Old Man of the Sea is a minor sea deity&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that is capable of metamorphosis and divination - Hom. Od 4.349-570)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In author's [of the Orphic Hymns] he represents a cosmic force, from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which one type of matter turns to another;  Styrax Incense was used&#xD;&#xA;&gt; during invocation and to please the daimons assisting in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; invocation process.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;To whom is the bearer of keys, I invoke Proteus first-begotten,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beginning of nature, who revealed holy matter, changing forms in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; multifarious shapes   all-respected, wise, who knows the present&#xD;&#xA;&gt; things, these, which came into being, these which did  not arise. He,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; containing it within, changes all - not any of immortals, who rule the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Olymp and visit Earth, and sea, bringing propitiousness for Nature in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Proteus has bestowed all in first manner Father, appear among these&#xD;&#xA;&gt; who celebrate these rites, and give us a happy resolution of life&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after toils.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Proteus in fact in identified with Hades, **given the Egyptian descent of Orphic mysteries we would have to reach for The Egyptian Book of the Dead**; Proteus might be identified with one of the lords of the underworld (think cosmic space, the wateways of universe) Similar to Hekate Drakaina who was the &quot;key-holder of all the passageways of the universe and Earth&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He might be an ancient Egyptian magoi-priest, that grew to a role of a deity,  or a deity that cannot be clearly identified; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Orphic Hymns as I believe are a dynamic Transposition of forces that undergo hypostatic rephrasing during god-working (theurgy), delineated by words, hymns, singing, processions, libations, sacrifices; The mystoi intuitively understands and therefore intitiated, consecrates, and acts; Thus at once we are dealing with persons, Gods, and awe-inspiring, alter-human, supra-human forces that are merely semiotized. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a side-note there is a story of 'The shipwrecked Sailor' (**The Literature of Ancient Egyptians, William Kelly Simpson, Faulkner, Wente, Simpson**) , a tale from the Middle Egyptian Kingdom in which an ancient serpent tales a tale of woe of his loss and his family to a ship-wrecked Egyptian, and then as a good father equips him with splendor, enriches him and sends him back to the land of Khem with blessings. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12390" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3073" RevisionGUID="d5e05ba6-86a6-406c-8b6a-4a8ab7d55967" CreationDate="2017-10-19T20:15:41.500" UserId="57" Comment="added 242 characters in body" Text="In the second episode of the first season of the television series [Top of the Lake][1], a beautiful Maori legend is mentioned: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; You know there's a,  &#xD;&#xA;A Maori legend about this lake  &#xD;&#xA;That says there's a demon's heart at the bottom of it.  &#xD;&#xA;It beats, it makes the lake rise and fall every five minutes.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Does it rise and fall?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Yeah. Yeah, it does.  &#xD;&#xA; It was this, um, a warrior  &#xD;&#xA;That rescued a maiden from a giant demon called tipua.  &#xD;&#xA;And he set fire to the demon's body while it slept  &#xD;&#xA;And burnt everything but his heart.  &#xD;&#xA;And the fat melting from the body formed a trough.  &#xD;&#xA;And the snow from the mountains ran down to fill it to form this lake.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The setting of the series, Laketop town and the lake mentioned in the quote, is fictional. However, apparently at least some of the scenes were filmed at [Moke Lake][3], near Queenstown. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm wondering if the story is based on actual Maori tales, or if it was invented by the show's writers. The Wikipedia article on [tipua][2], the only name mentioned in the story, is not helpful. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2103085/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipua&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moke_Lake" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12391" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3078" RevisionGUID="c89a553d-38df-4ded-9a38-01963ae5f708" CreationDate="2017-10-19T21:45:56.860" UserId="2892" Text="Everyone knows that the goddess Frejya's chariot was pulled by cats, but what kind of cats are we talking about?  Are they giant sized house-cats?  Were there any puma-sized cats in ancient Scandinavia?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12392" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3078" RevisionGUID="c89a553d-38df-4ded-9a38-01963ae5f708" CreationDate="2017-10-19T21:45:56.860" UserId="2892" Text="What kind of cats pulled Freya's chariot?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12393" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3078" RevisionGUID="c89a553d-38df-4ded-9a38-01963ae5f708" CreationDate="2017-10-19T21:45:56.860" UserId="2892" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12394" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3073" RevisionGUID="334bd6bc-92b7-44c5-8c46-12eda0242792" CreationDate="2017-10-20T03:42:34.137" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body" Text="In the second episode of the first season of the television series [Top of the Lake][1], a beautiful Maori legend is mentioned: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; You know there's a,  &#xD;&#xA;Maori legend about this lake  &#xD;&#xA;That says there's a demon's heart at the bottom of it.  &#xD;&#xA;It beats, it makes the lake rise and fall every five minutes.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Does it rise and fall?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Yeah. Yeah, it does.  &#xD;&#xA; It was this, um, a warrior  &#xD;&#xA;That rescued a maiden from a giant demon called tipua.  &#xD;&#xA;And he set fire to the demon's body while it slept  &#xD;&#xA;And burnt everything but his heart.  &#xD;&#xA;And the fat melting from the body formed a trough.  &#xD;&#xA;And the snow from the mountains ran down to fill it to form this lake.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The setting of the series, Laketop town and the lake mentioned in the quote, is fictional. However, apparently at least some of the scenes were filmed at [Moke Lake][3], near Queenstown. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm wondering if the story is based on actual Maori tales, or if it was invented by the show's writers. The Wikipedia article on [tipua][2], the only name mentioned in the story, is not helpful. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2103085/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipua&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moke_Lake" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12395" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3079" RevisionGUID="6f2c1560-f66b-42eb-85c6-6713d00f18cc" CreationDate="2017-10-20T04:08:07.467" UserId="108" Text="Yes, that's the legend of [Lake Wakatipu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Wakatipu), near [Queenstown](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queenstown,_New_Zealand). It is in fact the eponymous lake from the TV show, despite it apparently being filmed at [Moke Lake](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moke_Lake). As the TV show implies, Wakatipu is known for an unusual phenomenon where its waters rise and falls by as much as 12cm every five minutes due to atmospheric pressure.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Maori Folklore, a [*tipua*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipua) called Matau abducted Manata, daughter of a local tribal chief. The distraught father promised her hand in marriage to whoever rescues her, and a hero called Matakauri answered the call. To ensure that the demon never threatens them again, Matakauri set fire to Matua. The fire burned a hole into the ground where the demon lay, which became Lake Wakatipu.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As the legend goes, the demon's heart could not be destroyed. As a result, its powerful pulsations from within the lake causes Wakatipu's waters rise and fall every few minutes. Though somewhat contradictory, the [Hidden Island](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_Island_(New_Zealand)) (so named because it is not visible from much of Queenstown) is also said to be the heart.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It appears the TV show faithfully reproduced the traditional myth." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12396" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3079" RevisionGUID="5b954bd6-3b15-4574-a94f-fae41740029c" CreationDate="2017-10-20T04:23:44.953" UserId="108" Comment="added 20 characters in body" Text="Yes, that's the legend of [Lake Wakatipu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Wakatipu), near [Queenstown](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queenstown,_New_Zealand). Wakatipu appears to the model for the eponymous lake from the TV show, despite it apparently being filmed at [Moke Lake](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moke_Lake). As the TV show implies, Wakatipu is known for an unusual phenomenon where its waters rise and falls by as much as 12cm every five minutes due to atmospheric pressure.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Maori Folklore, a [*tipua*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipua) called Matau abducted Manata, daughter of a local tribal chief. The distraught father promised her hand in marriage to whoever rescues her, and a hero called Matakauri answered the call. To ensure that the demon never threatens them again, Matakauri set fire to Matua. The fire burned a hole into the ground where the demon lay, which became Lake Wakatipu.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As the legend goes, the demon's heart could not be destroyed. As a result, its powerful pulsations from within the lake causes Wakatipu's waters rise and fall every few minutes. Though somewhat contradictory, the [Hidden Island](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_Island_(New_Zealand)) (so named because it is not visible from much of Queenstown) is also said to be the heart.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It appears the TV show faithfully reproduced the traditional myth." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12399" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="2925" RevisionGUID="beaaadcb-f5f2-49de-b952-47c8b5511633" CreationDate="2017-10-20T14:04:15.937" UserId="183" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:183,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;HDE 226868&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="12402" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3082" RevisionGUID="beefd876-5946-4ab2-8db1-cce6554ec788" CreationDate="2017-10-20T18:06:25.430" UserId="666" Text="They were tomcats. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is really not very much told about Freyas cats. In *[Gylfaginning][1]*, [XXIV][2], we are told that &#xD;&#xA;&gt;When she goes forth, she drives her cats and sits in a chariot.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Note that the original actually specifies &quot;two cats&quot;).&#xD;&#xA;This is repeated in XLIX, when the gods travel to Balder's funeral:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;... Freyja drove her cats.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [Skáldskaparmál][3], [XX][4], we are also told of a kenning for her which is &quot;of the Gib-Cats&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is everything I've found in the primary sources that explicitly deals with Freya's cats. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The largest cats that is and were found in Scandinavia is the [Eurasian Lynx][5], but it is unlikely that there is some confusion here. Considering that Frey was pulled by a boar, and Thor by goats, we should probably not speculate too much along the lines that they can not have been ordinary cats.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, some scholars have wanted to link this with the Mediterranean goddess [Cybele][6], who had a chariot pulled by lions (but this is likely coincidence). There is also a passage in the [Saga of Eric the Red][7], in which a *völva* appears and does sejdr. She has her clothing described in detail, including a hood of lambskin, lined with white catskin, and gloves made of catskin, which had white fur turned inwards. Since Freya was associated with sejdr, this has suggested a connection with her cats. So, if you want to depict the cats, making them white would not be a totally wild guess.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The last passage on scholarly speculation is mostly out of Gro Steinsland's *Fornnordisk religion*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gylfaginning&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre04.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sk%C3%A1ldskaparm%C3%A1l&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.germanicmythology.com/ProseEdda/BRODEURSkaldskaparmal.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_lynx&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybele&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saga_of_Erik_the_Red" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12403" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3083" RevisionGUID="ac3cb475-9ed5-4dcf-ade1-396010c80409" CreationDate="2017-10-20T22:09:22.663" UserId="292" Text="There are actually two references to her cats in *[Gylfaginning][1]* (part of the *Prose Edda*):  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sessrumir, her hall, is large and beautiful. And when she travels, she&#xD;&#xA;&gt; drives two cats and sits in a chariot. (Faulkes: 24)  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; …Freyr drove in a chariot with a boar called Gullinbursti or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Slidrugtanni. But Heimdall rode a horse called Gulltopp, and Freyia&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her cats. (Faulkes: 50)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The passage about Baldr's funeral in *[Skaldskaparmal][2]* (also part of the Prose Edda) uses the word *fress* for Freyja's cats, which means tom-cat, although apparently it [could also mean][3] &quot;bear&quot; which led to [some confusion][4]. (Modern scholars translate *fress* as &quot;tom-cat&quot; in this case.) Another reference to Freyja's cats in *Skald*., saying that Freyja can be called  “possessor of tom-cats&quot;, uses the same word.  &#xD;&#xA;The two references to Freyja's cats in *Gylfaginning* use the word *köttr*, which [could also mean][5] a marten or weasel. This makes a little more sense, as you can see how cats, weasels and martens could be lumped together. However, both parts of the Prose Edda were written by the same person, Snorri Sturluson, so presumably he meant the same thing in both cases.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;Cat-lovers are partial to the idea that Freyja's cats were the ancestors of modern [Norwegian forest cats][6], which are large, powerful cats (like Maine Coon Cats). The Scandinavians [did have cats][7] as pets, but whether Freyja's cats were simply medium-sized furry animals or actual cats is open to question, although the detail about the volva's outfit in andejons' answer is suggestive.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Quotes from *Edda*, Snorri Sturluson/Anthony Faulkes, Everyman Press, Penguin, 1992.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre04.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre05.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://lexicon.ff.cuni.cz/html/oi_cleasbyvigfusson/b0173.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.germanicmythology.com/original/FreyjasCats.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://lexicon.ff.cuni.cz/html/oi_cleasbyvigfusson/b0368.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://cfa.org/Breeds/BreedsKthruR/NorwegianForestCat.aspx&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/vik_pets.shtml" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12406" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3084" RevisionGUID="25e11c34-d8d5-481f-a0b4-956792f0f817" CreationDate="2017-10-21T21:23:56.227" UserId="4271" Text="I was reading Dan Brown and found out that Dionysus's birthday(I assume 2nd birth from Zeus's calf) is the same as Jesus. What similarities do they share other then this?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12407" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3084" RevisionGUID="25e11c34-d8d5-481f-a0b4-956792f0f817" CreationDate="2017-10-21T21:23:56.227" UserId="4271" Text="How do Dionysus and Jesus relate?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12408" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3084" RevisionGUID="25e11c34-d8d5-481f-a0b4-956792f0f817" CreationDate="2017-10-21T21:23:56.227" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|christianity|zeus|christmas|dionysus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12409" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3084" RevisionGUID="a80ca1f9-7d14-4157-9718-51ee0b28b43c" CreationDate="2017-10-21T21:25:19.820" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|comparative|christianity|dionysus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12410" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3084" RevisionGUID="56b91a86-f315-43ef-90f6-33f1bb184b7b" CreationDate="2017-10-22T08:39:42.947" UserId="57" Comment="added 5 characters in body" Text="I was reading Dan Brown and found out that Dionysus's birthday (I assume 2nd birth from Zeus's calf) is the same as Jesus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What similarities do they share other than this?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12411" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3085" RevisionGUID="42826ee8-23f0-43a7-ae67-0dbb522061a5" CreationDate="2017-10-22T08:56:53.207" UserId="57" Text="In *The Da Vinci Code* Dan Brown claims that Mithras, Osiris, Adonis, and Dionysus were born on December 25:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Teabing groaned. 'Don’t get a symbologist started on Christian icons. Nothing in Christianity is original. The pre-Christian God Mithras – called the Son of God and the Light of the World – was born on December 25, died, was buried in a rock tomb, and then resurrected in three days. By the way, December 25 is also the birthday of Osiris, Adonis, and Dionysus. The newborn Krishna was presented with gold, frankincense, and myrrh. Even Christianity’s weekly holy day was stolen from the pagans.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I realize the book isn't known to be faithful to ancient myths, and the author probably was very liberal in interpreting his sources in order to create dramatic connections that fit the plot. However, I'm assuming that at the very least there are ancient sources pointing to a December birth for each of the aforementioned deities. Or are there? Where did Dan Brown get the idea that Mithras, Osiris, Adonis, and Dionysus share a December 25 birthday?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12412" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3085" RevisionGUID="42826ee8-23f0-43a7-ae67-0dbb522061a5" CreationDate="2017-10-22T08:56:53.207" UserId="57" Text="Do Mithras, Osiris, Adonis, and Dionysus share a December 25 birthday?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12413" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3085" RevisionGUID="42826ee8-23f0-43a7-ae67-0dbb522061a5" CreationDate="2017-10-22T08:56:53.207" UserId="57" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12414" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3085" RevisionGUID="576a39c2-e62f-4022-8405-c0659cf2dc1b" CreationDate="2017-10-22T10:00:46.763" UserId="57" Comment="added 55 characters in body" Text="In *The Da Vinci Code* Dan Brown claims that Mithras, Osiris, Adonis, and Dionysus were born on December 25:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Teabing groaned. 'Don’t get a symbologist started on Christian icons. Nothing in Christianity is original. The pre-Christian God Mithras – called the Son of God and the Light of the World – was born on December 25, died, was buried in a rock tomb, and then resurrected in three days. By the way, December 25 is also the birthday of Osiris, Adonis, and Dionysus. The newborn Krishna was presented with gold, frankincense, and myrrh. Even Christianity’s weekly holy day was stolen from the pagans.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I realize the book isn't known to be faithful to ancient myths, and the author probably was very liberal in interpreting his sources in order to create dramatic connections that fit the plot. However, I'm assuming that at the very least there are ancient sources pointing to a December birth for each of the aforementioned deities. Or are there? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where did Dan Brown get the idea that Mithras, Osiris, Adonis, and Dionysus share a December 25 birthday? Is there any basis for the claim in ancient myths?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12423" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3079" RevisionGUID="61e2a803-46ab-40b1-9b25-bf071f5aefb8" CreationDate="2017-10-23T02:48:30.197" UserId="108" Comment="added 477 characters in body" Text="Yes, that's the legend of [Lake Wakatipu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Wakatipu), near [Queenstown](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queenstown,_New_Zealand). Wakatipu appears to the model for the eponymous lake from the TV show, despite it apparently being filmed at [Moke Lake](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moke_Lake). As the TV show implies, Wakatipu is known for an unusual phenomenon where its waters rise and falls by as much as 12cm every five minutes due to atmospheric pressure.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Maori folklore offers an alternative explanation. In local mythology, a [*tipua*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipua) called Matau abducted Manata, daughter of a local tribal chief. The distraught father promised her hand in marriage to whoever rescues her, and a hero called Matakauri answered the call. To ensure that the demon never threatens them again, Matakauri set fire to Matua. The fire burned a hole into the ground where the demon lay, which became Lake Wakatipu as melted snow from the surrounding mountains flooded the gorge.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As the legend goes, the demon's heart could not be destroyed. As a result, its powerful pulsations from within the lake causes Wakatipu's waters rise and fall every few minutes. Though somewhat contradictory, the [Hidden Island](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_Island_(New_Zealand)) (so named because it is not visible from much of Queenstown) is also said to be the heart.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It appears the TV show faithfully reproduced the traditional myth, which can also be found in various online sources such as: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. [Hands on History Programme: Maori in the Southern Lakes](http://www.handsonhistory.co.nz/students/maori-in-the-southern-lakes/)&#xD;&#xA;2. [Southern Discoveries Ltd.: Queenstown Blog » The Legend of Lake Wakatipu](http://www.southerndiscoveries.co.nz/blog/queenstown-blog/the-legend-of-lake-wakatipu/)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12424" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3088" RevisionGUID="7aaa0499-75cf-44bf-927a-64ae8e35d0c3" CreationDate="2017-10-23T09:22:10.913" UserId="4142" Text="Since historians started noted how Christianity attempted to displace paganism, assertions such as Dan Brown's are a commonplace. Older cultures did not have a precise calendar, so Dec. 25th is approximately the winter solstice, a period of a few days when the duration of daylight is minimal and which gets more perceptible in the northern latitudes. The &quot;Day&quot; or the &quot;Sun&quot; starts &quot;growing&quot;  after the solstice and for sedentary peoples the fact has an obvious importance, which apparently has been magnified by later commentators.&#xD;&#xA;Macrobius' (5th c.) interest  in the traditional Roman Saturnalia is an influent source mentioning Dionysus and Horus. Mithra, whose genealogy is rather complicated, in imperial times was assimilated to Sol Invictus (the unconquered sun) and so he came to be celebrated at the solstice. Adonis fits well the schema of a rebirth but  it is not clear when it was decided that he should be born on Dec. 25th. The so called  &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_ritualists&quot;&gt;Cambridge Ritualists&lt;/a&gt; have a significant role for the popular connection of the myths and calendar.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12426" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3089" RevisionGUID="38e93889-3579-4695-be06-0071f3079e1e" CreationDate="2017-10-23T22:21:28.077" UserId="2892" Text="The relationship between these Jesus and Dionysus has multiple aspects:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;- Both are demi-gods, with a divine father and a mortal mother. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Both died and were reborn&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Wine symbolizes the blood of both&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dionysus also famously &quot;returned from the East&quot; after his rebirth.  Jesus was from &quot;the East&quot; from a Greek perspective, and came to Greece through [Paul the Apostle][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a mythological perspective, these gods are both &quot;liminal&quot;, meaning that they straddle two worlds, here life and death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Each year, Dionysus is torn apart in the cutting and stamping of the grapes, buried in a cave (typically in casks), and in spring is &quot;reborn in [spirit][2]&quot;, literally. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;You may find this verse from TS Eliot interesting:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*&quot;The dripping blood our only drink,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The bloody flesh our only food:&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In spite of which we like to think&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;That we are sound, substantial flesh and blood—&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Again, in spite of that, we call this Friday good.&quot;*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/spirit" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12428" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3090" RevisionGUID="80e89d7d-315d-4923-83ca-62ddaddcd581" CreationDate="2017-10-24T05:53:04.913" UserId="4294" Text="I don't even know if OP will even see this, but...&#xD;&#xA;I believe that Artemis could be described as queer, if not bisexual for the reasons described in this fantastic and in-depth article: https://www.autostraddle.com/artemis-is-the-queer-girl-goddess-bff-you-always-dreamt-of-377958/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12429" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3091" RevisionGUID="1561eb3f-b089-442a-b3d9-3ba4ae214225" CreationDate="2017-10-24T23:59:25.457" UserId="4297" Text="Achilles was given two choices by his mother, either stay and die with imperishable fame or leave the war and live a life of peace. When he heard Hector killed Patroclus, to escape his fate and take revenge couldn't Achilles just leave that war and comeback for Hector at another time? And if he could, did he not see that because he was blinded by rage?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12430" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3091" RevisionGUID="1561eb3f-b089-442a-b3d9-3ba4ae214225" CreationDate="2017-10-24T23:59:25.457" UserId="4297" Text="Could Achilles have killed Hector at a later time?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12431" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3091" RevisionGUID="1561eb3f-b089-442a-b3d9-3ba4ae214225" CreationDate="2017-10-24T23:59:25.457" UserId="4297" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12432" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3092" RevisionGUID="ba451a68-d02c-4e83-b58f-24f9ea60dd06" CreationDate="2017-10-25T00:35:35.170" UserId="292" Text="I'm glad you asked this, because this is something I've wondered about for awhile. I think the other answers cover Mithra and Adonis pretty well, so here's what I have been able to find out about Dionysus and Osiris.  &#xD;&#xA;The [rural Dionysia][1] (a Greek festival) was held to celebrate the wine harvest, but it actually took place in the month of Poseidon, which &quot;straddled the winter solstice&quot; ([Wikipedia][2]). It seems to have been a lot like the Roman Saturnalia.  &#xD;&#xA;The [Wepet-Renpet Festival][3], which celebrated the death and rebirth (well, [sort of][4]) of Osiris was the New Year festival of Ancient Egypt, but unfortunately their new year was [in July][5], when the Nile flooded.  &#xD;&#xA;Hope this helps.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/SMIGRA*/Dionysia.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysia&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.ancient.eu/article/1032/festivals-in-ancient-egypt/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Osiris-Egyptian-god&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://yallatoursblog.com/2017/01/02/wepet-renpet-ancient-egyptian-new-year/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12433" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3093" RevisionGUID="a1ba7727-d263-459f-8d5b-2b94548a42ae" CreationDate="2017-10-25T16:36:40.460" UserId="2892" Text="Achilles doesn't actually want to escape his fate.  Turning away from the war at it's outset is a response to Agamemnon's insult over [Briseis][1].  (The Iliad actually begins with this feud, and the major tension is over whether Achilles will ultimately participate in the war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason Achilles seeks his own destruction is that, in his case, his death is the price of undying glory.  Undying glory he did achieve, as his name is almost as famous today as it was in Ancient Greece.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a referent, the Irish hero Achilles was presented with a similar proposition--a long life in obscurity, or an dying young as the price of immortal fame.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Briseis" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12435" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3093" RevisionGUID="f44b670d-9915-4d1d-8157-b0a625738106" CreationDate="2017-10-25T21:17:33.100" UserId="2892" Comment="corrected the Cuchulainn reference" Text="Achilles doesn't actually want to escape his fate.  Turning away from the war at it's outset is a response to Agamemnon's insult over [Briseis][1].  (The Iliad actually begins with this feud, and the major tension is over whether Achilles will ultimately participate in the war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason Achilles seeks his own destruction is that, in his case, his death is the price of undying glory.  Undying glory he did achieve, as his name is almost as famous today as it was in Ancient Greece.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a referent, the Irish hero [Cúchulainn][2] was presented with a similar proposition--a long life in obscurity, or an dying young as the price of immortal fame.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Briseis&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Chulainn" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12436" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="912" RevisionGUID="0fe28c4f-9d93-4e15-a710-b6f6efc0056d" CreationDate="2017-10-26T09:38:04.670" UserId="3230" Comment="added the rituals tag" Text="|celtic|rituals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12437" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="912" RevisionGUID="0fe28c4f-9d93-4e15-a710-b6f6efc0056d" CreationDate="2017-10-26T09:38:04.670" Comment="Proposed by 3230 approved by 967, 2774 edit id of 504" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12438" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3093" RevisionGUID="bbcbd1f7-391c-413f-95f8-bc9f1d111fc1" CreationDate="2017-10-26T09:57:40.443" UserId="201" Comment="fixed wee typos" Text="Achilles doesn't actually want to escape his fate.  Turning away from the war at its outset is a response to Agamemnon's insult over [Briseis][1].  (The Iliad actually begins with this feud, and the major tension is over whether Achilles will ultimately participate in the war.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason Achilles seeks his own destruction is that, in his case, his death is the price of undying glory.  Undying glory he did achieve, as his name is almost as famous today as it was in Ancient Greece.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a referent, the Irish hero [Cúchulainn][2] was presented with a similar proposition: a long life in obscurity, or an dying young as the price of immortal fame.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Briseis&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Chulainn" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12439" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3094" RevisionGUID="28883b1d-dd48-4a7b-826d-3027c0759548" CreationDate="2017-10-26T11:25:35.977" UserDisplayName="user4301" Text="In celtic folklore, there are many stories of fairy lovers. A famous example is the ballad of *[Lady Isabel and the Elf Knight][1]*. Usually in these tales, the human man or woman are lured or approached by the fairy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Usually, in these tales, the fairy initiates the encounter. For example, Lady Isabel hears a horn and wishes the knight would &quot;lie&quot; with her, and he immediately appears. While it is her wish that brings him to her, it is his horn that evokes her desire. In other tales, girls walking the Scottish highlands are in danger of being raped by fairies. Again, the contact intended by the fairy, not the human.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there (celtic) tales in which humans make the first step? For example, a human might decide that they want a fairy lover and take certain steps to aquire one. **By what means** (according to celtic superstition) can humans summon or invite a fairy lover to them?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Isabel_and_the_Elf_Knight" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12440" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3094" RevisionGUID="28883b1d-dd48-4a7b-826d-3027c0759548" CreationDate="2017-10-26T11:25:35.977" UserDisplayName="user4301" Text="How can a human invite or summon a fairy lover?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12441" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3094" RevisionGUID="28883b1d-dd48-4a7b-826d-3027c0759548" CreationDate="2017-10-26T11:25:35.977" UserDisplayName="user4301" Text="|celtic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12442" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2999" RevisionGUID="0c7b1a61-031a-40c1-9a84-d630d04af08a" CreationDate="2017-10-26T11:27:41.647" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="12443" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3090" RevisionGUID="4a501ba5-272c-4c5b-9df7-15270edadaaa" CreationDate="2017-10-26T11:46:06.547" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved formatting." Text="I don't even know if OP will even see this, but...&#xD;&#xA;I believe that Artemis could be described as queer, if not bisexual for the reasons described in this fantastic and in-depth article: [Artemis Is the Queer Girl Goddess BFF of Your Dreams](https://www.autostraddle.com/artemis-is-the-queer-girl-goddess-bff-you-always-dreamt-of-377958/)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12444" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1778" RevisionGUID="c1c09eec-7212-442c-88a2-e1d4919e3caa" CreationDate="2017-10-26T17:48:27.950" UserId="2892" Comment="Updated the link to jump right to the relevant story" Text="I agree that there isn't evidence that Artemis was exclusively a lesbian, and no myth as far as I know that explicitly states that either, but there is was such an implication.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [Callisto myth][1], Zeus takes on the form of Artemis in order to have sex with Callisto, one of her followers. He does this to &quot;lure her into his embrace&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So even though she might not have been popularly thought of as such, Zeus and Callisto at least share enough belief that Artemis might have sex with her female follower for Zeus to try it and Callisto to fall for it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I agree that she was definitely not strictly a lesbian, and maybe not at all, but there was some implication of homosexuality even in ancient times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callisto_(mythology)#Myth" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12445" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3093" RevisionGUID="fba54a07-b955-4608-8b20-75bdceec6a18" CreationDate="2017-10-26T17:59:31.867" UserId="2892" Comment="Added the Cuchullain story with two links" Text="Achilles doesn't actually want to escape his fate.  Turning away from the war at its outset is a response to Agamemnon's insult over [Briseis][1].  (The Iliad actually begins with this feud, and the major tension is over whether Achilles will ultimately participate in the war.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason Achilles seeks his own destruction is that, in his case, his death is the price of undying glory.  Undying glory he did achieve, as his name is almost as famous today as it was in Ancient Greece.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a referent, the Irish hero [Cúchulainn][2] was presented with a similar proposition: a long life in obscurity, or an dying young as the price of immortal fame:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When [Cúchulainn] was older, and near the time when he might assume the weapons of manhood, it chanced one day that he passed close by where Cathbad the Druid was teaching to certain of his pupils the art of divination and augury. One of them asked of Cathbad for what kind of enterprise that same day might be favourable, and Cathbad, having worked a spell of divination, said : &quot;The youth who should take up arms on this day would become of all men in Erin most famous for great deeds, yet will his life be short and fleeting.&quot; Cuchulain passed on as though he marked it not, and he came before the king. &quot;What wilt thou ?&quot; asked Conor. &quot;To take the arms of manhood,&quot; said Cuchulain. &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Tales of the Ultonian Cycle][3] &quot;Cuchulain Assumes Arms&quot; | See Also: Mythology: [The Voyage of the Hero][4], p 48.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At a very basic level, acceptance of this bargain is a validation of the hero's courage, and part of what makes them worthy of everlasting fame.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Briseis&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Chulainn&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mlcr/mlcr05.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://books.google.com/books?id=YJawuz5Q1vEC&amp;pg=PA49&amp;lpg=PA49&amp;dq=C%C3%BAchulainn%20assumes%20arms&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=LuwM_0FRym&amp;sig=mfDbLhwBvBSHTh_7z8UsTJkhDL0&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiryqL_7Y7XAhWIdSYKHRSuDA8Q6AEIODAD#v=onepage&amp;q=C%C3%BAchulainn%20assumes%20arms&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12446" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3089" RevisionGUID="71895017-8667-405c-9760-a679d6123149" CreationDate="2017-10-26T18:11:35.213" UserId="2892" Comment="Added info on the sparagmos and a the context of the Bacchae" Text="The relationship between these Jesus and Dionysus has multiple aspects.  here are the most basic:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Both are demi-gods, with a divine father and a mortal mother. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Both were sacrificed&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Both died and were reborn&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Wine symbolizes the blood of both&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dionysus also famously &quot;returned from the East&quot; after his rebirth.  Jesus was from &quot;the East&quot; from a Greek perspective, and came to Greece through [the Apostle Paul][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a mythological perspective, these gods are both &quot;liminal&quot;, meaning that they straddle two worlds.  In this case, they straddle death and life. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Each year, Dionysus is [torn apart][2]* in the cutting and stamping of the grapes, buried in a cave (typically in casks), and in spring is &quot;reborn in [spirit][3]&quot;, literally. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;*The sacrifice of Dionysus is sometimes referred to as the [sparagmos][2] where he is torn apart and eaten by Titans.  This event in commemorated in [the Bacchae][2], which has a religious function--Greek dramas were presented at the [Festival of Dionysus][4]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You may find this verse from TS Eliot interesting:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*&quot;The dripping blood our only drink,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The bloody flesh our only food:&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In spite of which we like to think&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;That we are sound, substantial flesh and blood—&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Again, in spite of that, we call this Friday good.&quot;*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparagmos&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/spirit&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysia" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12447" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3089" RevisionGUID="d97c7810-7774-4445-9372-bbadcdcbf5a6" CreationDate="2017-10-26T18:22:14.153" UserId="2892" Comment="Added info on the sparagmos and a the context of the Bacchae and being &quot;twice born&quot;" Text="The relationship between these Jesus and Dionysus has multiple aspects.  Here are the most basic:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Both had a divine father and a mortal mother &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Both were sacrificed&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Both died and were resurrected&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Wine symbolizes the blood of both&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dionysus also famously &quot;returned from the East&quot; after his resurrection.  (some accounts have him returning from the South, but in both cases he was regarded as somewhat of a foreign god.)  Jesus was from &quot;the East&quot; from a Greek perspective, certainly foreign, and came to Greece through [the Apostle Paul][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a mythological perspective, these gods are both &quot;liminal&quot;, meaning that they straddle two worlds.  In this case, they straddle death and life. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Each year, Dionysus is [torn apart][2]* in the cutting and stamping of the grapes, buried in a cave (typically in casks), and in spring is &quot;reborn in [spirit][3]&quot;, literally. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dionysus is also known as &quot;twice born&quot; because he was first carried by his mother, Semele, and then removed on her death and borne in Zeus' thigh until his second birth.  Jesus is often regarded as having been &quot;born again&quot; and the term is still used today in many Christian sects to describe adherents.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;*The sacrifice of Dionysus is sometimes referred to as the [sparagmos][2] where he is torn apart and eaten by Titans.  This event in commemorated in [the Bacchae][2], which has a religious function--Greek dramas were presented at the [Festival of Dionysus][4]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You may find this verse from TS Eliot interesting:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*&quot;The dripping blood our only drink,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The bloody flesh our only food:&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In spite of which we like to think&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;That we are sound, substantial flesh and blood—&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Again, in spite of that, we call this Friday good.&quot;*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparagmos&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/spirit&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysia" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12448" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3089" RevisionGUID="32c1b63b-f84d-48d1-9191-b901ebb4c62f" CreationDate="2017-10-26T19:21:48.170" UserId="2892" Comment="added 421 characters in body" Text="The relationship between these Jesus and Dionysus has multiple aspects.  Here are the most basic:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Both had a divine father and a mortal mother &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Both were sacrificed&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Both died and were resurrected&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Wine symbolizes the blood of both&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Christian tradition, Jesus says *&quot;for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.&quot;* [[Matthew 26:28][1]] In the pagan tradition, each year Dionysus is symbolically [torn apart][2]* in the cutting and stamping of grapes, buried in a cave (typically in a cask), and in spring is &quot;reborn in [spirit][3]&quot;, literally.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dionysus also famously &quot;returned from the East&quot; after his resurrection.  *(Some accounts have him returning from the South, but in both cases he was regarded as a foreign god. This is part of the reason [Pentheus][4], &quot;Divine Agony&quot;, rejects him.)*  Jesus &quot;was from the East&quot; from a Greek perspective, certainly foreign, and came to Greece through [the Apostle Paul][5].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a mythological perspective, these gods are both &quot;liminal&quot;, meaning that they move between worlds, in this case, life/death or earth/heaven. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dionysus is also known as &quot;twice born&quot; because he was first carried by his mother, Semele, and then removed on her death and borne in Zeus' thigh until his second birth.  Jesus is often regarded as having been &quot;born again&quot; and the term is still used today in many Christian sects to describe adherents.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;*The sacrifice of Dionysus is sometimes referred to as the [sparagmos][2] where he is torn apart and eaten by Titans.  This event in commemorated in [the Bacchae][2], which has a religious function--Greek dramas were presented at the [Festival of Dionysus][6]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You may find this verse from TS Eliot interesting:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*&quot;The dripping blood our only drink,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The bloody flesh our only food:&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In spite of which we like to think&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;That we are sound, substantial flesh and blood—&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Again, in spite of that, we call this Friday good.&quot;*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0155%3Abook%3DMatthew%3Achapter%3D26%3Averse%3D28&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparagmos&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/spirit&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentheus&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysia" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12449" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2754" RevisionGUID="d6cb7763-6ca7-4f2c-9730-0b898f83ec1d" CreationDate="2017-10-26T20:13:44.457" UserId="2892" Comment="Added a note on one of the very sparse Jewish references to &quot;Hell&quot;" Text=" - The Sumerian tradition has a hell with demons. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Although this material predates the time of Jesus by millennia, unlike the ancient Greek religion which was contemporaneous, it is surely an influence on the Hebrew side of the equation as Abraham is said to have come from of Ur.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The story of [Inanna][1] features demons from the underworld. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's harder to find this source material online, but Penguin has a nice edition called [Poems of Heaven and Hell][2] which includes Inanna's descent.  You can find an overview of the story at [Hell-On-Line][3]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Baal][4] is also a template for one form of the devil&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Part of Baal cycle involves descent into and return from hell as part of a fertility cycle, but with the decline of paganism in the region, he seems to be relegated to the underworld full-time as [Beelzebub][5]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There seems to be a quotation from the Jewish *[Midrash](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midrash)* (commentaries on the scriptures) to the effect that &quot;[fathers would place their children in fires as offerings for the idol Molech, and the children's screams would reverberate from the fire][6]&quot;.  Although the Old Testament is not much concerned with &quot;demons&quot; (even the terms used in Torah translated as &quot;demons&quot; are shaky and almost certainly reflect post-Christian influence), false gods would certainly occupy a similar status.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inanna#Descent_into_the_Underworld&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.amazon.com/Heaven-Ancient-Mesopotamia-Penguin-Classics/dp/0140442499&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.hell-on-line.org/TextsANE.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal#Christianity&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beelzebub&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://judaism.stackexchange.com/a/81240/15955" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12451" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3094" RevisionGUID="bab79c08-724d-49c2-99eb-ccf23588bd58" CreationDate="2017-10-27T06:21:16.823" UserDisplayName="user4301" Comment="added 3 characters in body" Text="In celtic folklore, there are many stories of fairy lovers. A famous example is the ballad of *[Lady Isabel and the Elf Knight][1]*. Usually in these tales, the human man or woman are lured or approached by the fairy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Usually, in these tales, the fairy initiates the encounter. For example, Lady Isabel hears a horn and wishes the knight would &quot;lie&quot; with her, and he immediately appears. While it is her wish that brings him to her, it is his horn that evokes her desire. In other tales, girls walking the Scottish highlands are in danger of being raped by fairies. Again, the contact is intended by the fairy, not the human.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there (celtic) tales in which humans make the first step? For example, a human might decide that they want a fairy lover and take certain steps to aquire one. **By what means** (according to celtic superstition) can humans summon or invite a fairy lover to them?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Isabel_and_the_Elf_Knight" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12452" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3094" RevisionGUID="8e39139b-fd0d-4ca4-a355-8a8faa34e488" CreationDate="2017-10-27T08:51:17.917" UserDisplayName="user4301" Comment="added 81 characters in body" Text="In celtic folklore, there are many stories of fairy lovers. A famous example is the ballad of *[Lady Isabel and the Elf Knight][1]*. Usually in these tales, the human man or woman are lured or approached by the fairy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Usually, in these tales, the fairy initiates the encounter. For example, Lady Isabel hears a horn and wishes the knight would &quot;lie&quot; with her, and he immediately appears. While it is her wish that brings him to her, it is his horn that evokes her desire. In other tales, girls walking the Scottish highlands are in danger of being raped by fairies (as, for example in, [Tam Lin][2]). Again, the contact is originaly unintended by the human.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there (celtic) tales in which humans make the first step? For example, a human might decide that they want a fairy lover and take certain steps to aquire one. **By what means** (according to celtic superstition) can humans summon or invite a fairy lover to them?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Isabel_and_the_Elf_Knight&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tam_Lin" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12453" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3095" RevisionGUID="3b3c2365-d95f-40dd-bf07-43e0f7be87cd" CreationDate="2017-10-27T17:19:47.960" UserId="4305" Text="Watch &quot;Symbols of an Alien Sky&quot; on YouTube. It's got nothing to do with aliens and everything to do with plasma physics. The &quot;sun&quot; with wavy lines you refer to is not Sol it is Saturn and Saturn also is represented with a six pointed star called seal of Saturn. If you watch the documentary and the rest of Thunderbolt Projects videos, all will be answered. The lightning scarred planet Mars is jaw dropping." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12454" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3093" RevisionGUID="8abf08bb-0c16-4222-afc3-238e99654d83" CreationDate="2017-10-27T17:50:31.663" UserId="2892" Comment="added a note on Diomedes vs. Achilles, and Warrior rationale per Bushido" Text="Achilles doesn't actually want to escape his fate.  Turning away from the war at its outset is a response to Agamemnon's insult over [Briseis][1].  (The Iliad actually begins with this feud, and the major tension is over whether Achilles will ultimately participate in the war.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason Achilles seeks his own destruction is that, in his case, his death is the price of undying glory.  Undying glory he did achieve, as his name is almost as famous today as it was in Ancient Greece.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Consider [Diomedes][2], regarded as second only to Achilles in martial prowess, with a case can be made that Diomedes actually *exceeds* Achilles in that Diomedes wounds two Olympian gods in battle in a single day.  Yet I rarely hear people speak of Diomedes, who returned from Troy and founded numerous Italian cities.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a referent, the Irish hero [Cúchulainn][3] was presented with a similar proposition: a long life in obscurity, or an dying young as the price of immortal fame:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When [Cúchulainn] was older, and near the time when he might assume the weapons of manhood, it chanced one day that he passed close by where Cathbad the Druid was teaching to certain of his pupils the art of divination and augury. One of them asked of Cathbad for what kind of enterprise that same day might be favourable, and Cathbad, having worked a spell of divination, said : &quot;The youth who should take up arms on this day would become of all men in Erin most famous for great deeds, yet will his life be short and fleeting.&quot; Cuchulain passed on as though he marked it not, and he came before the king. &quot;What wilt thou ?&quot; asked Conor. &quot;To take the arms of manhood,&quot; said Cuchulain. &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Tales of the Ultonian Cycle][4] &quot;Cuchulain Assumes Arms&quot; | See Also: Mythology: [The Voyage of the Hero][5], p 48.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At a very basic level, acceptance of this bargain is a validation of the hero's courage, their willingness to die, and part of what makes them worthy of everlasting fame.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;See also the [Hagakure][6] and [Book of Five Rings][7].  The Japanese concept of [Bushido][8] is quite useful in analyzing warrior heroes in that warrior societies, including [Mycenaean Greece][9], tend to be honor/shame cultures.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This quote from the author of the Hagakure, Yamamoto Tsunetomo, elucidates the idea of the warrior's own death as a goal:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Way of the Warrior is found in death. When it comes to either/or, there is only the quick choice of death. It is not particularly difficult. Be determined and advance. To say that dying without reaching one's aim is to die a dog's death is the frivolous way of sophisticates. When pressed with the choice of life or death, it is not necessary to gain one's aim. &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Hagakure, Chapter 1][10]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Briseis&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diomedes&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Chulainn&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mlcr/mlcr05.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://books.google.com/books?id=YJawuz5Q1vEC&amp;pg=PA49&amp;lpg=PA49&amp;dq=C%C3%BAchulainn%20assumes%20arms&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=LuwM_0FRym&amp;sig=mfDbLhwBvBSHTh_7z8UsTJkhDL0&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiryqL_7Y7XAhWIdSYKHRSuDA8Q6AEIODAD#v=onepage&amp;q=C%C3%BAchulainn%20assumes%20arms&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagakure&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Five_Rings&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushido&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_Greece&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Yamamoto_Tsunetomo" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12455" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3096" RevisionGUID="1f05d780-4ae0-4821-90be-c8b250a31743" CreationDate="2017-10-27T18:39:53.450" UserId="2892" Text="The story of Rumpelstiltskin is quite well known, but I can't recall what his motivation for wanting the human child.  The question can be extended to Goblins in general. *(Although in the case of the Tengu, who sometimes would eat the babies, hunger for delicacies seems a sufficient motivation;)*  But for faeries in general who don't eat the infants, what is the impetus for baby stealing?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12456" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3096" RevisionGUID="1f05d780-4ae0-4821-90be-c8b250a31743" CreationDate="2017-10-27T18:39:53.450" UserId="2892" Text="Why did Rumpelstiltskin want the baby?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12457" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3096" RevisionGUID="1f05d780-4ae0-4821-90be-c8b250a31743" CreationDate="2017-10-27T18:39:53.450" UserId="2892" Text="|folklore|changelings|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12458" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3097" RevisionGUID="633c542a-eec1-40f4-a747-6852a7223e78" CreationDate="2017-10-27T20:19:57.807" UserId="4306" Text="I bought a house and found a crystal taped to the radiator. Anyone know why someone would want to tape a crystal to the radiator? It looks like a mountain crystal but as i'm not knowledgeable about crystals i can't say for sure.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It looks like this one:&#xD;&#xA;https://nvbyk.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/mountain-crystal.jpg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any religions or superstitions who put mountain crystals near their radiators or something?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12459" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3097" RevisionGUID="633c542a-eec1-40f4-a747-6852a7223e78" CreationDate="2017-10-27T20:19:57.807" UserId="4306" Text="Crystal taped to radiator?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12460" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3097" RevisionGUID="633c542a-eec1-40f4-a747-6852a7223e78" CreationDate="2017-10-27T20:19:57.807" UserId="4306" Text="|superstition|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12461" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3097" RevisionGUID="b49fd3e2-dfbe-4496-ba1b-5f248fc6817a" CreationDate="2017-10-27T21:26:43.077" UserId="2892" Comment="added a couple of relevant tags" Text="|folklore|superstition|hermeticism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12462" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="75" RevisionGUID="f9e9b509-c4ea-44a8-b62a-1f126555ddfb" CreationDate="2017-10-28T10:55:45.387" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|japanese|superstition|zodiac|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12463" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="182" RevisionGUID="a47ffb1a-ec84-49f4-ba63-a2dfc0238e34" CreationDate="2017-10-28T10:55:52.180" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mesopotamia|zodiac|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12464" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2644" RevisionGUID="1feceb30-3bb6-4c0b-9f2a-77d6bf39a851" CreationDate="2017-10-28T10:57:03.350" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|astrology|zodiac|iconography|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12465" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3098" RevisionGUID="43c65433-266c-488d-993f-54f254928ce7" CreationDate="2017-10-28T10:57:22.443" UserId="57" Text="The [constellation Capricornus][1] is often represented in the form of a sea-goat: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![&quot;Capricornus&quot;, plate 25 in Urania's Mirror, a set of celestial cards accompanied by A familiar treatise on astronomy ... by Jehoshaphat Aspin. London. Astronomical chart, 1 print on layered paper board: etching, hand-colored.](https://i.stack.imgur.com/1hVRu.jpg)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sidney_Hall_-_Urania%27s_Mirror_-_Capricornus.jpg)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is that? Are there tales that attempt to explain how this curious hybrid came to be?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capricornus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/1hVRu.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12466" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3098" RevisionGUID="43c65433-266c-488d-993f-54f254928ce7" CreationDate="2017-10-28T10:57:22.443" UserId="57" Text="Why is the constellation Capricornus depicted as a sea-goat?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12467" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3098" RevisionGUID="43c65433-266c-488d-993f-54f254928ce7" CreationDate="2017-10-28T10:57:22.443" UserId="57" Text="|zodiac|iconography|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12468" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3097" RevisionGUID="417cda9f-3486-4209-bd4a-c25be0c63a2a" CreationDate="2017-10-28T14:50:20.680" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved formatting and added one linked image." Text="I bought a house and found a crystal taped to the radiator. Anyone know why someone would want to tape a crystal to the radiator? It looks like a mountain crystal but as I'm not knowledgeable about crystals I can't say for sure.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It looks like this [one](https://nvbyk.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/mountain-crystal.jpg):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Crystal][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any religions or superstitions who put mountain crystals near their radiators or something?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/kxhHR.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12469" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3099" RevisionGUID="45e0d0d6-f986-4ed9-8645-840e98e9c5ab" CreationDate="2017-10-28T17:11:41.843" UserId="4307" Text="I've been wanting to read a bit about japanese myths and legends, kamis and yokais, and the main reference I found was Handbook of Japanese Mythology, which seems quite complete. However, my understanding is that it has quite a &quot;scholar&quot; approach to the subject, and that reading it feels more like a lecture, which is fine but not quite like I'm looking for.&#xD;&#xA;Could you recommend books about japanese mythology that are more &quot;narration oriented&quot; ? Something that would read more like a storybook than like a textbook.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you !" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12470" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3099" RevisionGUID="45e0d0d6-f986-4ed9-8645-840e98e9c5ab" CreationDate="2017-10-28T17:11:41.843" UserId="4307" Text="Storybooks about Japanese Mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12471" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3099" RevisionGUID="45e0d0d6-f986-4ed9-8645-840e98e9c5ab" CreationDate="2017-10-28T17:11:41.843" UserId="4307" Text="|japanese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12472" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3100" RevisionGUID="2e7c8221-2628-4358-b3c0-9f798ef0b3e7" CreationDate="2017-10-29T10:30:13.613" UserId="4308" Text="The only explanation that comes to mind for me is that the traditional religion and it's methods were not as present anymore during the later ptolemaic years. It might have been an “accident“ rather than having a mythological purpose." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12477" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3103" RevisionGUID="b64eec2b-c1b4-490c-88c6-4cecb06f4960" CreationDate="2017-10-29T15:29:37.990" UserId="4271" Text="One story from Greek Mythology tells of a sea goat Pricus. He shared the ability of time with Chronos(primordial god of time) and Kronos(titan of time). His children were like him. The sea goat were intellectual, honorable and favored by the gods. One day, a few of his kids are drawn to shore, pulling themselves up with their goat legs and metamorphosed into normal goats. Pricus is saddened by this, as he is their father, and reverses time. No matter how many time he does this, or rules he puts down, they still go to shore and Pricus realizes it is inevitable. The now normal goats travel away from the shore, out of sight and is saddened greatly more. Eventually he is all alone and begs Chronos to die, but he places him is the sky as Capricorn so he can watch over his children on the mountains." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12478" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3104" RevisionGUID="5a23babf-6a02-4fbb-a423-9dcc9da2238e" CreationDate="2017-10-29T16:02:33.557" UserId="4271" Text="I was looking a Wikipedia and it says Odin is Hermes Norse form. Can anyone expand on that?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12479" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3104" RevisionGUID="5a23babf-6a02-4fbb-a423-9dcc9da2238e" CreationDate="2017-10-29T16:02:33.557" UserId="4271" Text="Why is Hermes linked to Odin?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12480" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3104" RevisionGUID="5a23babf-6a02-4fbb-a423-9dcc9da2238e" CreationDate="2017-10-29T16:02:33.557" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|norse|odin|hermes|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12484" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3106" RevisionGUID="a00de003-5184-4066-872b-c31c570d49a1" CreationDate="2017-10-29T18:02:00.423" UserId="666" Text="If we want to be exact, Hermes is not linked directly to Odin. His Roman equivalent Mercury is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first time such a link is made is in [Tacitus'][1] *Germania*, where he in the ninth book states that &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Mercury is the deity whom they chiefly worship, and on certain days they deem it right to sacrifice to him even with human victims.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Translation: Alfred John Church and William Jackson Brodribb][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Human sacrifice is something that is very much linked with Odin in the later sources. Further evidence is provided through the names of the week in some of the Germanic languages, where the Roman *Dies Mercurii* corresponds to *Wednesday*, or mainland Scandinavian *onsdag* (The English name is derived from the spelling &quot;Wodan&quot;).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further attestation of the identification is through [Paulus Diaconus][3], 8th century historian of the Lombards, who explicitly identifies Wodan with Mercury. The same identification also appears in Anglo-Saxon traditions about the missionary [Columbanus][4].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus far about the source for the identification. Now for how it came about.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't believe Mercury was a particularly bloodthirsty god, and neither that he was the most prominent of the Roman pantheon, so obviously the identification is based on other things than what Tacitus says - it makes sense that he would focus on differences.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Instead, it seems it was several of Odin's other features that led to the identification. His wanderings have already been mentioned in comments above. Furthermore, both Odin and Mercury held some sway over the dead: Mercury acted as a [psychopomp][5], or escort of the newly departed to the afterlife, while Odin stood to receive half of the dead that were deemed worthy (the other half wet to Freya). Furthermore, Mercury had poetry, divination and trickery as part of his domain, which are very good fits for Odin. Thus, even if the identification might seem surprising, the two gods actually have rather a lot in common (though we can not be exactly sure if not Odin picked up some of Mercury's traits along the way).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;Most of the above is from, or corroborated by Gro Steinsland, *Fornnordisk religion*.&#xD;&#xA;The part about Paulus Diaconus I found in the notes of N.E. Hammarstedts translation into Swedish of *Germania*, from 1921, which I've also used to check the translation above.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Germania_(Church_%26_Brodribb)#IX&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Deacon&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbanus&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopomp" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12490" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3108" RevisionGUID="58304a15-16fe-4589-9d8f-fc83dd0ee17c" CreationDate="2017-10-29T23:24:57.643" UserId="4271" Text="I ask about those who would fall under the category with Triptolemus, whom helped Demeter teach mortals about agriculture. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12491" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3108" RevisionGUID="58304a15-16fe-4589-9d8f-fc83dd0ee17c" CreationDate="2017-10-29T23:24:57.643" UserId="4271" Text="What minor gods are linked to Demeter?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12492" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3108" RevisionGUID="58304a15-16fe-4589-9d8f-fc83dd0ee17c" CreationDate="2017-10-29T23:24:57.643" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12493" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3109" RevisionGUID="9e940628-0296-4120-94cd-dbea9088a143" CreationDate="2017-10-29T23:41:05.160" UserId="4271" Text="I don't know who Wonder Woman is, but I do know this. The Amazons(or at least a percentage of them) are Ares's daughters. So, it would be assumed that, no, the Amazons never went against the god. In the Trojan war, the Amazons and Ares are at the side of Troy(most likely with Aphrodite's coercion). This is the only reference I have of both together." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12494" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3110" RevisionGUID="8de4fb1a-13db-4c77-b602-23c987bc0c99" CreationDate="2017-10-30T00:11:42.890" UserId="4271" Text="The only thing I know is that one must place a coin under the tongue to pay Charon, the ferry man of the Underworld." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12495" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3110" RevisionGUID="8de4fb1a-13db-4c77-b602-23c987bc0c99" CreationDate="2017-10-30T00:11:42.890" UserId="4271" Text="How would a body be prepared for the Greek afterlife?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12496" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3110" RevisionGUID="8de4fb1a-13db-4c77-b602-23c987bc0c99" CreationDate="2017-10-30T00:11:42.890" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|underworld|rituals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12497" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3111" RevisionGUID="e4b24913-f9b4-458a-b546-e7519aec9e91" CreationDate="2017-10-30T02:20:28.067" UserId="1315" Text="This link was made first time by Tacitus (Germania). They are similar in some aspects, which can lead to confusion, like in the question of the two relates to the figure of the hermit (wanderer, lord of the ways) and luck-chance in games, for example.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other issue that could lead us to this confusion is the question of the days of the week. The word Wednesday in English and German is spoken Wednesday, which translates from the old German means &quot;Wuodan Day&quot;, in turn as it was said, Wuodan was the name of Odin given by the Germans, that means &quot;Day of Odin&quot;. On the other Hand, in other languages (spanish, for instance), Wedsnesday is &quot;Mercury&quot;, which was syncretized in the figure of Hermes-Mercury (from greek and roman mythology).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We have to take in account the culture of this people. So, if we observe from the greek side, the aspects of the Odin as conduits of souls, we can relate to Hermes. If we look from other perspective we can think in Mercury. If the viking people used to pray for Odin in War, we can relate with Ares from a greek perspective and so on... so, there is many things too consider.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;PS: Hermes was grandson of Kronos (which carries the figure of the Hermit too), so Hermes can inherit characteristics of his blood past, this helps to mark the link between (Kronos-)Odin-Hermes once again.&#xD;&#xA;Hope it Helps! If you need source from any of this let me know." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12498" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3104" RevisionGUID="39eef410-a91e-4bbb-83f4-8d0a9040d391" CreationDate="2017-10-30T09:08:49.850" UserId="57" Comment="added 107 characters in body; edited title" Text="The Wikipedia article on [Hermes][1] says [Odin][2] is his Norse equivalent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can anyone expand on that?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odin" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12499" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3104" RevisionGUID="39eef410-a91e-4bbb-83f4-8d0a9040d391" CreationDate="2017-10-30T09:08:49.850" UserId="57" Comment="added 107 characters in body; edited title" Text="How is Hermes linked to Odin?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12500" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3112" RevisionGUID="2e815229-2115-44de-97de-713cc7667068" CreationDate="2017-10-30T09:19:43.577" UserId="53" Text="There are many myths surrounding crystals.  They are held by many to be capable of channelling positive energy and so promoting health and wellbeing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Your picture looks like quartz.  Quartz in particular is said to balance the energies of the body and the building.  &#xD;&#xA;There are many sources online that describe the properties attributed to crystals, &lt;a href=&quot;http://crystal-information.com/encyclopedia/&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.crystalvaults.com/crystal-encyclopedia/crystal-guide&quot;&gt; this &lt;/a&gt; are just two.  Although bear in mind that many such websites are primarily geared to selling crystals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is likely that the previous owner placed quartz in the home to promote wellbeing within the house.  Given that the position within the house is not simply on a shelf would indicate that it has been chosen carefully.  &#xD;&#xA;The position would either have been chosen by dowsing the most auspicious place - seeking positive Earth energy by Geomancy, for example placing on a ley line -  or Feng Shui techniques would have been used.  This would have depended upon the beliefs of the person placing it.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't believe that the radiator is significant, it would be the position that is more important." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12501" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3111" RevisionGUID="a3e87d83-4a97-4c5e-a850-2ca7940f4744" CreationDate="2017-10-30T11:24:25.043" UserId="1315" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="This link was made first time by Tacitus (Germania). They are similar in some aspects, which can lead to confusion, like in the question of the two relates to the figure of the hermit (wanderer, lord of the ways) and luck-chance in games, for example.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other issue that could lead us to this confusion is the question of the days of the week. The word Wednesday in English and German is spoken Wednesday, which translates from the old German means &quot;Wuodan Day&quot;, in turn as it was said, Wuodan was the name of Odin given by the Germans, that means &quot;Day of Odin&quot;. On the other Hand, in other languages (spanish, for instance), Wedsnesday is &quot;Mercury&quot;, which was syncretized in the figure of Hermes-Mercury (from greek and roman mythology).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We have to take in account the culture of this people. So, if we observe from the greek side, the aspects of the Odin as conduits of souls, we can relate to Hermes. If we look from other perspective we can think in Mercury. If the viking people used to pray for Odin in War, we can relate with Ares from a greek perspective and so on... so, there is many things too consider.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;PS: Hermes was grandson of Kronos (which carries the figure of the Hermit too), so Hermes can inherit characteristics of his 'past blood', this helps to mark the link between (Kronos-)Odin-Hermes once again.&#xD;&#xA;Hope it Helps! If you need source from any of this let me know." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12502" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3113" RevisionGUID="ca7d060d-dd58-4291-b150-37e8b5e4e215" CreationDate="2017-10-30T12:05:38.463" UserId="1315" Text="The Greeks believed that at the moment of death the psyche, or spirit of the dead, left the body as a little breath or puff of wind. The deceased was then prepared for burial according to the time-honored rituals. Ancient literary sources emphasize the necessity of a proper burial and refer to the omission of burial rites as an insult to human dignity (Iliad, 23.71). Relatives of the deceased, primarily women, conducted the elaborate burial rituals that were customarily of three parts: the prothesis (laying out of the body (54.11.5), the ekphora (funeral procession), and the interment of the body or cremated remains of the deceased. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After being washed and anointed with oil, the body was dressed (75.2.11) and placed on a high bed within the house. During the prothesis, relatives and friends came to mourn and pay their respects. Lamentation of the dead is featured in early Greek art at least as early as the Geometric period, when vases were decorated with scenes portraying the deceased surrounded by mourners. Following the prothesis, the deceased was brought to the cemetery in a procession, the ekphora, which usually took place just before dawn. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Very few objects were actually placed in the grave, but monumental earth mounds, rectangular built tombs, and elaborate marble stelai and statues were often erected to mark the grave and to ensure that the deceased would not be forgotten. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More in: [SOURCE link 1][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/dbag/hd_dbag.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12503" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3114" RevisionGUID="e15a9061-8b65-4e47-8b34-d9a2ffd07dab" CreationDate="2017-10-30T20:54:16.857" UserId="967" Text="Hecate was depicted with crossroads, just as the devil was.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Do the similarities end there? Could Hecate qualify as a devil figure?**" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12504" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3114" RevisionGUID="e15a9061-8b65-4e47-8b34-d9a2ffd07dab" CreationDate="2017-10-30T20:54:16.857" UserId="967" Text="Does Hecate and the devil have other parallels?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12505" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3114" RevisionGUID="e15a9061-8b65-4e47-8b34-d9a2ffd07dab" CreationDate="2017-10-30T20:54:16.857" UserId="967" Text="|greek|comparative|the-devil|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12506" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3115" RevisionGUID="176e3844-3182-4344-9b2f-98633b472d70" CreationDate="2017-10-31T01:15:10.277" UserId="292" Text="Here's a link to a list of agricultural deities major and minor on [Theoi.com][1], which includes Plutus, god of wealth and good harvests, Bootes the herdsman who ended up in the stars, the Horae who ordered the seasons, and Macaria, goddess of blessed earth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/greek-mythology/agricultural-gods.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12507" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3113" RevisionGUID="98d97624-48a3-4527-b4e9-fa4f9590b842" CreationDate="2017-10-31T18:06:00.850" UserId="2892" Comment="Added a link to the Iliad passage and directly linked the cited images.  Also corrected the citation to include the title of the essay and source" Text="The Greeks believed that at the moment of death the psyche, or spirit of the dead, left the body as a little breath or puff of wind. The deceased was then prepared for burial according to the time-honored rituals. Ancient literary sources emphasize the necessity of a proper burial and refer to the omission of burial rites as an insult to human dignity ([Iliad, 23.71][1]). Relatives of the deceased, primarily women, conducted the elaborate burial rituals that were customarily of three parts: the prothesis ([laying out of the body][2]), the ekphora (funeral procession), and the interment of the body or cremated remains of the deceased. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After being washed and anointed with oil, [the body was dressed][3] and placed on a high bed within the house. During the prothesis, relatives and friends came to mourn and pay their respects. Lamentation of the dead is featured in early Greek art at least as early as the Geometric period, when vases were decorated with scenes portraying the deceased surrounded by mourners. Following the prothesis, the deceased was brought to the cemetery in a procession, the ekphora, which usually took place just before dawn. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Very few objects were actually placed in the grave, but monumental earth mounds, rectangular built tombs, and elaborate marble stelai and statues were often erected to mark the grave and to ensure that the deceased would not be forgotten. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;SOURCE: [Death, Burial, and the Afterlife in Ancient Greece][4], Department of Greek and Roman Art, The Metropolitan Museum of Art, October 2003&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D23%3Acard%3D54&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/54.11.5/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/75.2.11/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/dbag/hd_dbag.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12508" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3114" RevisionGUID="84f15ea6-ee0c-4540-8017-4ed12b377af7" CreationDate="2017-10-31T18:15:23.603" UserId="2892" Comment="Added a link to crossroads reference" Text="Hecate was [associated with crossroads][1], just as the devil was.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Do the similarities end there? Could Hecate qualify as a devil figure?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecate#Goddess_of_the_crossroads" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12509" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3114" RevisionGUID="84f15ea6-ee0c-4540-8017-4ed12b377af7" CreationDate="2017-10-31T18:15:23.603" UserId="2892" Comment="Added a link to crossroads reference" Text="|greek|comparative|the-devil|witchcraft|crossroads|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12510" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3114" RevisionGUID="e981ca4c-82fd-4486-865f-d9da624e8ad3" CreationDate="2017-10-31T18:24:46.827" UserId="2892" Comment="edited title" Text="Parallels between Hecate and the Devil?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12513" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3117" RevisionGUID="5ec135a9-0ff2-460e-8c68-6c5ef8504567" CreationDate="2017-11-02T05:43:56.760" UserId="4316" Text="The unicorn is a mythological creature similar in appearance to a horse but has a magical horn which is said to have very special powers. Can anyone mention a full list of powers of unicorn horn? I'm curious.." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12514" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3117" RevisionGUID="5ec135a9-0ff2-460e-8c68-6c5ef8504567" CreationDate="2017-11-02T05:43:56.760" UserId="4316" Text="What are the special powers of a unicorn's horn?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12515" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3117" RevisionGUID="5ec135a9-0ff2-460e-8c68-6c5ef8504567" CreationDate="2017-11-02T05:43:56.760" UserId="4316" Text="|magic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12516" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3118" RevisionGUID="549f24b3-9745-42a6-98c0-769d026438bd" CreationDate="2017-11-02T08:22:09.363" UserId="4302" Text="The title really says it all&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any accepted religions that have never developed a concept for where individuals go when they die? (i.e. Heaven/Hell, Valhalla, reincarnation, etc.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I only ask because I believe this to be the focal point of most religions: people's belief centering around how they can gain eternal life." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12517" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3118" RevisionGUID="549f24b3-9745-42a6-98c0-769d026438bd" CreationDate="2017-11-02T08:22:09.363" UserId="4302" Text="Are there religions with no concept of afterlife?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12518" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3118" RevisionGUID="549f24b3-9745-42a6-98c0-769d026438bd" CreationDate="2017-11-02T08:22:09.363" UserId="4302" Text="|mythohistory|abrahamic-religions|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12519" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3119" RevisionGUID="9532af8c-3ea8-4de5-9031-d6df08b4e153" CreationDate="2017-11-02T20:24:25.690" UserId="4171" Text="In Daniel McCoy's mythology book &quot;The Viking Spirit&quot;, he offers a chapter on the Old  Norse concept of the self. He states that they divided people into four discrete parts, which he translates as follows: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Hamr** - Body.  &#xD;&#xA; - **Hugr** - Mind. &#xD;&#xA; - **Fylgia** - A symbolic animal spirit. &#xD;&#xA; - **Hamingja** - Luck.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He then goes on to explain the differences in the Old Norse ideas of things like &quot;body&quot; (which can change shape), &quot;mind&quot; (which can effect things at a distance), etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's my problem. McCoy is a well-read populizer, not a professional academic, so I wanted to be sure of his translations. Elsewhere online I've seen hamr referred to as a kind of astral projection, or heard of other parts of the self McCoy doesn't include, like Várðr, or vital energy. I can't tell if someone's made an error, or if I've mixed up historical sources with modern neopagan ideas, or what.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***So how did the old norse conceptualize the parts of the self? Is McCoy's version accurate?*** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks for your time. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12520" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3119" RevisionGUID="9532af8c-3ea8-4de5-9031-d6df08b4e153" CreationDate="2017-11-02T20:24:25.690" UserId="4171" Text="How did the Old Norse conceptualize the parts of the self? Are these translations accurate?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12521" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3119" RevisionGUID="9532af8c-3ea8-4de5-9031-d6df08b4e153" CreationDate="2017-11-02T20:24:25.690" UserId="4171" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12522" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3120" RevisionGUID="a2baa74c-3ac0-4d9a-b9f7-ad3ea1e8465b" CreationDate="2017-11-02T22:15:54.163" UserId="666" Text="**Short answer:** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The translations are correct, but the mythological sources that comes closest to discuss what a human needs to be a human uses other words, with different connotations, as well as totally different concepts. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Long answer**:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First, let me note that the above seem very speculative: we do not have the sources to really discuss how the Old Norse saw the self. The purely mythological material is pretty bare-boned. We can probably do a bit more if we go to medieval Icelanders and use the saga literature, but then we likely have some Christian influence to contend with.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a mythology standpoint, the most relevant part is when Odin and two companions create the first humans, [Ask and Embla][1]. They are given gifts to make them fully alive. This is told in *Völuspá*, verse 18, and in *Gylfaginning*, chapter IX. I will quote the relevant passages in Old Norse:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Önd þau né áttu,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;    óð þau né höfðu,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;    lá né læti&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;    né litu góða;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;    önd gaf Óðinn,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;    óð gaf Hænir,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;    lá gaf Lóðurr&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;    ok litu góða.&lt;br&gt; - [*Völuspá*, Edited by Guðni Jónsson][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Gaf inn fyrsti önd ok líf, annarr vit ok hræring, þriði ásjónu, mál ok heyrn ok sjón, gáfu þeim klæði ok nöfn.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[*Gylfaginning*, Edited by Guðni Jónsson][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The exact meaning of these passages has been debated, and there is no exact translations. I will try to cover the gifts as noted in *Völuspá*, from as many translations as I can find:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- *önd* is a complex noun, and can mean [spirit, breath, soul, mind or life][4] (the word is still in use in northern Germanic languages, and keeps most of these meanings. It is particularly in use in Christian contexts for the Holy Spirit). This seems to be translated as &quot;spirit&quot; or &quot;soul&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- *höfdu* (I'm not sure what the unconjugated word would be). This differs across translations: &quot;sense&quot;, &quot;judgement&quot; or &quot;force, power, energy&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- *lá.* Another tricky one. Outside of poetry, the meaning seems to be &quot;[hair][5]&quot;, but two of my translations have &quot;blood&quot;, the third something like &quot;fluid of life&quot;, while the last have &quot;heat&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- *laeti*. This can mean [&quot;sound (from human or animal)&quot;, &quot;manners, conduct&quot;, &quot;good will&quot;][6]. My translations into Swedish have gone with &quot;sound&quot; or &quot;voice&quot;, while the English have &quot;motion&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- *litu góða*. *lit* means something like &quot;[look][7]&quot;. *góða* is &quot;good&quot;. This seem to translated to &quot;good skin&quot;, &quot;lively hue&quot;, &quot;lively color&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for *Gylfaginning*, we have already covered *önd*, while *líf* is &quot;life&quot;, *vit* is &quot;knowledge, wit&quot;, *ásjón* is [&quot;shape, looks][8]&quot;, *mál* is [&quot;speech&quot;][9], *heyrn* is &quot;hearing&quot; and *sjón* [&quot;sight&quot;][10]. The last two gifts are &quot;clothes&quot; and &quot;names&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, if we sum this up, humans would need a spirit or soul, sense or wit, looks, and senses.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we compare with the list in the question, we can at find somewhat decent fits for &quot;body&quot; and &quot;mind&quot;, but not for the other two. A *fylgia* is properly a sort of spirit companion; it can both be connected to the *[ætt][11]*, in which case it can take the form of a person and appear in omens, or be a sort of personal *alter ego* in animal form. *Hamingja* is indeed a form of &quot;luck&quot;, and can be personified by a woman. It can also be a sort of soul that can be transferred from one person to another within the *ætt*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;I've used the [online Old Norse-Danish dictionary][12] from the University of Copenhagen for the basic meanings of words.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For *Völuspá*, I've consulted the translations done by Erik BrRate and Lars Lönnroth into Swedish, and Benjamin Thorpe and Henry Adams Bellows into English, as found in [Wikipedia][13].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For *Gylfaginning*, I've used the Swedish translation of Karl G. Johansson and Mats Malm.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For *Fylgia*, see Gro Steinsland, *Fornnordisk religion*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For *Hamingja*, see Britt-Mari Näsström, *Nordiska gudinnor*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ask_and_Embla&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.heimskringla.no/wiki/V%C3%B6lusp%C3%A1&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://heimskringla.no/wiki/Gylfaginning&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://onpweb.nfi.sc.ku.dk/webart/4/4n/92429frm.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://onpweb.nfi.sc.ku.dk/webart/l/la/103773frm.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://onpweb.nfi.sc.ku.dk/webart/l/l2/51212frm.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://onpweb.nfi.sc.ku.dk/webart/l/li/49984frm.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://onpweb.nfi.sc.ku.dk/webart/a/as/4837frm.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://onpweb.nfi.sc.ku.dk/webart/m/ma/102131frm.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://onpweb.nfi.sc.ku.dk/webart/s/sj/69234frm.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_clans&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://onpweb.nfi.sc.ku.dk/wordlist_d_adv.html&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ask_and_Embl" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12523" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3121" RevisionGUID="ca3dab75-4a03-48a4-95dc-364f765104cd" CreationDate="2017-11-03T04:39:53.237" UserId="4319" Text="Is it true that Norse mythology gods  are almost the same as mortals without their weapons? I think that Thor gets his lightning from Mjölnir and his strength from his belt. If that is the case wouldn't he dwarfs who makes their weapons more powerful than them? I'm sorry I only bits from the Norse mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12524" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3121" RevisionGUID="ca3dab75-4a03-48a4-95dc-364f765104cd" CreationDate="2017-11-03T04:39:53.237" UserId="4319" Text="Is it true that Norse mythology gods are almost the same as mortals without their weapons?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12525" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3121" RevisionGUID="ca3dab75-4a03-48a4-95dc-364f765104cd" CreationDate="2017-11-03T04:39:53.237" UserId="4319" Text="|norse|weapons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12526" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3122" RevisionGUID="db72bfed-5358-40db-8aea-a07fb54045b5" CreationDate="2017-11-03T11:43:47.973" UserId="666" Text="**Short answer:** Not really, but closer than many other gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Long answer:** &#xD;&#xA;The Norse gods are generally not all-powerful; they can and they can die. They also seem to rely on Thor's hammer [Mjölnir][1] to a large degree to keep the status quo and not be overrun by the jotuns. When Thor loses Mjölnir in [*Þrymskviða*][2], this is seen as a major threat to the gods. (BTW, the hammer is said to cause thunder, but there is actually no reference to lightning).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But we also see know the gods are quite capable of great deeds even without such aids. The question mentions Thor's belt of strength, [Megingjörð][3]. However, what it does is to double Thor's strength: certainly impressive and important, but not totally indispensable. Freyja has much knowledge of [Seiðr][4], powerful magics, which she also has taught Odin. She at one point uses it to [lock two kings in eternal conflict with eachother][5], waking up each slain man so he can continue to fight. In the story of the mead of poetry (in *Skáldskaparmál*), Odin is capable of doing the work of nine men, and shapeshifts into both a snake and an eagle (most other gods needs some kind of magical garment to do this, but there is no reference to this in this story). Heimdall can hear the grass grow and see over a hundred leagues. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And let's not forget their powers of creation: Odin and his brothers reshaped the corpse of the giant Ymir into the known world. They created man from driftwood. Thor was able to take a frozen toe of a man and turn it into a star (*Skáldskaparmál*, in the story of [Hrungnir][6]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, while the gods do depend on their magical items to a large degree, they are still much more than mortals who have gotten their hands on some dwarfmade weapons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mj%C3%B6lnir&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Erymskvi%C3%B0a&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megingj%C3%B6r%C3%B0&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sei%C3%B0r&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%B6rla_%C3%BE%C3%A1ttr&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrungnir" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12527" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3122" RevisionGUID="bce4f71c-5d28-47f7-9bea-1c793bff3ea7" CreationDate="2017-11-04T00:09:46.263" UserId="967" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="**Short answer:** Not really, but closer than many other gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Long answer:** &#xD;&#xA;The Norse gods are generally not all-powerful; they can and they will die. They also seem to rely on Thor's hammer [Mjölnir][1] to a large degree to keep the status quo and not be overrun by the jotuns. When Thor loses Mjölnir in [*Þrymskviða*][2], this is seen as a major threat to the gods. (BTW, the hammer is said to cause thunder, but there is actually no reference to lightning).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But we also see know the gods are quite capable of great deeds even without such aids. The question mentions Thor's belt of strength, [Megingjörð][3]. However, what it does is to double Thor's strength: certainly impressive and important, but not totally indispensable. Freyja has much knowledge of [Seiðr][4], powerful magics, which she also has taught Odin. She at one point uses it to [lock two kings in eternal conflict with eachother][5], waking up each slain man so he can continue to fight. In the story of the mead of poetry (in *Skáldskaparmál*), Odin is capable of doing the work of nine men, and shapeshifts into both a snake and an eagle (most other gods needs some kind of magical garment to do this, but there is no reference to this in this story). Heimdall can hear the grass grow and see over a hundred leagues. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And let's not forget their powers of creation: Odin and his brothers reshaped the corpse of the giant Ymir into the known world. They created man from driftwood. Thor was able to take a frozen toe of a man and turn it into a star (*Skáldskaparmál*, in the story of [Hrungnir][6]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, while the gods do depend on their magical items to a large degree, they are still much more than mortals who have gotten their hands on some dwarfmade weapons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mj%C3%B6lnir&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Erymskvi%C3%B0a&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megingj%C3%B6r%C3%B0&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sei%C3%B0r&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%B6rla_%C3%BE%C3%A1ttr&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrungnir" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12531" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3124" RevisionGUID="a9f23a95-83ee-4f56-88c1-6d771cc477c2" CreationDate="2017-11-04T18:53:55.577" UserId="4271" Text="As a deity, they wanted to stay King. Kronos feared his kids would over throw him because of a curse put on him by him father, Ouranos/Uranus, after he was over thrown.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For Metis, there was a prophecy that she would give birth to two kids, a girl and a boy. Filled with fear, he ate her." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12538" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3127" RevisionGUID="d647cc32-92e5-4563-9de5-7626e78b03f8" CreationDate="2017-11-04T20:18:13.687" UserId="4271" Text="I am not sure if this is a real myth, as I learned about it from a tumbling post. But if it is, share all you know." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12539" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3127" RevisionGUID="d647cc32-92e5-4563-9de5-7626e78b03f8" CreationDate="2017-11-04T20:18:13.687" UserId="4271" Text="Who did Zeus punish by having poison/acid dripped on them?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12540" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3127" RevisionGUID="d647cc32-92e5-4563-9de5-7626e78b03f8" CreationDate="2017-11-04T20:18:13.687" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|zeus|underworld|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12541" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3128" RevisionGUID="d2a0b655-0aaf-49ff-8c82-ec9dd00181a7" CreationDate="2017-11-05T03:20:06.180" UserId="4271" Text="[Picture](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aether_(mythology)#/media/File:Aether_in_battle_with_a_lion-headed_Giant.jpg)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this picture, the primordial god of the upper air, Aether, is depicted wrestling a lion headed giant. Is there a myth/story for this anywhere?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12542" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3128" RevisionGUID="d2a0b655-0aaf-49ff-8c82-ec9dd00181a7" CreationDate="2017-11-05T03:20:06.180" UserId="4271" Text="Why is Aether shown battling a lion headed giant?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12543" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3128" RevisionGUID="d2a0b655-0aaf-49ff-8c82-ec9dd00181a7" CreationDate="2017-11-05T03:20:06.180" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12544" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3129" RevisionGUID="2b75d238-bcec-4bb5-baf7-bfb1abe539f0" CreationDate="2017-11-05T05:23:47.873" UserId="4271" Text="I know of Gelos(god) and Agathodaemon(spirit). What are any others?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12545" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3129" RevisionGUID="2b75d238-bcec-4bb5-baf7-bfb1abe539f0" CreationDate="2017-11-05T05:23:47.873" UserId="4271" Text="What/Which minor gods/spirits are associated with Dionysus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12546" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3129" RevisionGUID="2b75d238-bcec-4bb5-baf7-bfb1abe539f0" CreationDate="2017-11-05T05:23:47.873" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|dionysus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12547" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3130" RevisionGUID="f48e66e3-0180-4319-b663-c869f4411e74" CreationDate="2017-11-05T19:40:29.083" UserId="4271" Text="The kerykeion, or (Latin)caduceus is a symbol of Hermes. Hermes is the god of travel, borders, thieves, trade, messages, sports/athletes and is a guide to the Underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, apart from thievery and death, I'd say you are fine to god a tattoo if you really want it." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12549" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3128" RevisionGUID="e682941f-d5a1-4791-8ff5-4f4593ab1d82" CreationDate="2017-11-05T21:13:06.830" UserId="57" Comment="added 156 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="In this picture, the primordial god of the upper air, [Aether][1], is depicted wrestling a lion-headed giant. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Aether in battle with a lion-headed giant - Pergamon Museum][2]](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Aether_in_battle_with_a_lion-headed_Giant.jpg)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a myth/story for this anywhere?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aether_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/t8sPF.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12550" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3128" RevisionGUID="e682941f-d5a1-4791-8ff5-4f4593ab1d82" CreationDate="2017-11-05T21:13:06.830" UserId="57" Comment="added 156 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Why is Aether shown battling a lion-headed giant?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12551" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3128" RevisionGUID="e682941f-d5a1-4791-8ff5-4f4593ab1d82" CreationDate="2017-11-05T21:13:06.830" UserId="57" Comment="added 156 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|greek|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12553" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3127" RevisionGUID="9e3c244f-304c-429c-874e-b83bc496fd84" CreationDate="2017-11-05T21:59:07.050" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|myth-identification|zeus|underworld|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12554" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3131" RevisionGUID="e3665ae8-2fde-4f16-a4f9-b06f94d1fa93" CreationDate="2017-11-05T22:31:21.663" UserId="4271" Text="In the Iliad by Homer(and relating stories by him about the Trojan War), all the god's names are Greek. But in the Aeneid by Virgil, a story that takes place immediately during and after the fall of Troy, they use Roman/Latin names.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Granted, the stories were written in their respective languages. Help." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12555" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3131" RevisionGUID="e3665ae8-2fde-4f16-a4f9-b06f94d1fa93" CreationDate="2017-11-05T22:31:21.663" UserId="4271" Text="Did the Trojans worship the gods by their Greek or Roman names?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12556" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3131" RevisionGUID="e3665ae8-2fde-4f16-a4f9-b06f94d1fa93" CreationDate="2017-11-05T22:31:21.663" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|roman|trojan-war|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12557" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3132" RevisionGUID="3eb608ec-2f59-4324-b43f-547e6ca61852" CreationDate="2017-11-06T13:40:16.230" UserId="398" Text="The simple fact that in the *Aeneid* Vergil used Latin names is because the *Aeneid* was written in Latin. That is all there is to it. It was written much later—700 years later—and thus we cannot expect Vergil to have accurate traditions about the Trojans that wasn't filtered through the Greeks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Romans almost always translated the Greek gods' names into Roman equivalents. All throughout Ovid's *Metamorphoses*, the stories in which are often straight from Greek myths, Zeus is always Iuppiter, Hera always Iuno, Ares Mars and Athena Minerva.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only clues as to what the Trojans actually called their god come from Hittite treaties. In particular, [Apaliunas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apaliunas) was said to be a protective deity of Wilusa. If Wilusa is indeed Troy (and many good scholars have debated this point for many years without consensus), then maybe, just maybe, we can connect Apaliunas with Apollo, but there isn't enough evidence to identify him as Apollo with 100% certainty." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12558" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3133" RevisionGUID="e685ac4d-09ec-441e-934a-8575119b64cd" CreationDate="2017-11-06T15:39:12.897" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12559" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3133" RevisionGUID="e685ac4d-09ec-441e-934a-8575119b64cd" CreationDate="2017-11-06T15:39:12.897" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12560" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3134" RevisionGUID="1f6c16e9-5918-4b54-a45a-7c4b311f843f" CreationDate="2017-11-06T15:39:12.897" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12561" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3134" RevisionGUID="1f6c16e9-5918-4b54-a45a-7c4b311f843f" CreationDate="2017-11-06T15:39:12.897" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12565" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3135" RevisionGUID="c4f09ac2-4c48-4de0-a4da-b6737add77b1" CreationDate="2017-11-07T19:03:12.347" UserId="4105" Text="The [theoi.com article on Dionysus][1] lists [Silenus][2], the [satyrs][3], and the [maenads][4] as the god's retinue. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Dionysos.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/Seilenos.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/Satyroi.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maenad" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12566" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3136" RevisionGUID="e014d917-3cdd-40c8-b094-607b5a204188" CreationDate="2017-11-07T19:14:18.370" UserId="4105" Text="I do not think there's a tale were Zeus punishes someone with poison, as in Greek mythology punishment by poison is more often associated with women. See, for example, the story of Medea,  or how Hera attempted to poison baby Hercules with snakes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think it's likely whoever wrote the comment in your screenshot was mistaken, and were actually thinking of [Loki's punishment][1] (as already mentioned by Lauren Ipsum).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://norse-mythology.org/tales/loki-bound/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12567" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3137" RevisionGUID="c226157b-03bd-4b20-af34-6a63ea38856f" CreationDate="2017-11-07T19:42:21.327" UserId="4105" Text="This is the story of the nymph [Taygete][1], one of the Pleiades. When Zeus pursued her, Artemis transformed her to a hind (or a cow) with golden horns. However, Zeus wasn't fooled by the disguise and raped the nymph. The result of their union is [Lacedaemon][2], the legendary founder of Sparta. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taygete&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacedaemon_(mythology)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12569" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3127" RevisionGUID="018a17fc-7ca4-4d5e-8c28-b4bf0cc4ebe2" CreationDate="2017-11-08T07:09:46.630" UserId="4105" Comment="added screenshot to post from comments" Text="I am not sure if this is a real myth, as I learned about it from a tumbling post:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; But if it is, share all you know.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/omLQp.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12570" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3127" RevisionGUID="018a17fc-7ca4-4d5e-8c28-b4bf0cc4ebe2" CreationDate="2017-11-08T07:09:46.630" UserId="4105" Comment="added screenshot to post from comments" Text="|greek|myth-identification|zeus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12571" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3127" RevisionGUID="018a17fc-7ca4-4d5e-8c28-b4bf0cc4ebe2" CreationDate="2017-11-08T07:09:46.630" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 57 edit id of 506" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12572" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3129" RevisionGUID="953452ed-b1ff-432e-8b86-20022fb0dd62" CreationDate="2017-11-08T07:10:09.677" UserId="57" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="I know of Gelos (god) and Agathodaemon (spirit). What are any others?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12574" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1413" RevisionGUID="9454775f-9a75-4d10-a199-ba18fc1e7f5f" CreationDate="2017-11-08T07:11:46.937" UserId="57" Comment="added 1 character in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="I'd like to understand the astrological sign Capricorn more fully. &#xD;&#xA;Are there any myths related to this sign? I am interested in both stories about Capricorn, or stories that reveal the goals of someone who is Capricorn. Even if there are myths regarding symbols that relate to Capricorn. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12575" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1413" RevisionGUID="9454775f-9a75-4d10-a199-ba18fc1e7f5f" CreationDate="2017-11-08T07:11:46.937" UserId="57" Comment="added 1 character in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="What are some myths involving Capricorn?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12576" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1413" RevisionGUID="9454775f-9a75-4d10-a199-ba18fc1e7f5f" CreationDate="2017-11-08T07:11:46.937" UserId="57" Comment="added 1 character in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|myth-identification|astrology|zodiac|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12577" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="3098" RevisionGUID="45f5d09f-0da5-4258-94b9-3a994c832624" CreationDate="2017-11-08T07:11:55.517" UserId="57" Comment="101" Text="{&quot;OriginalQuestionIds&quot;:[1413],&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;yannis&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="12578" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3138" RevisionGUID="f6e99a31-f369-402f-8775-69869b084a33" CreationDate="2017-11-08T09:39:23.537" UserId="57" Text="The lion-headed giant apparently is [Leon][1], who, according to Ptolemy Hephaestion was slain by Herakles during the [Gigantomachy][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Herakles did not wear the skin of the Nemean lion, but that of a certain Leon (Lion), one of the Gigantes (Giants) killed by Herakles whom he had challenged to single combat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Ptolemy Hephaestion, New History Book 5 (summary from Photius, Myriobiblon 190) (trans. Pearse) (Greek mythographer C1st to C2nd A.D.)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately, I do not think a tale of Leon battling Aether survive. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Gigante/GiganteLeon.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giants_(Greek_mythology)#The_Gigantomachy" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12583" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3140" RevisionGUID="751100a4-cc7a-4a2b-a980-cc31129f43f3" CreationDate="2017-11-08T20:16:59.460" UserId="4335" Text="In Richmond Lattimore's translation, the following lines (9.410-416) are a part of Achilles' first speech in Book Nine:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For my mother Thetis the goddess of the silver feet tells me&#xD;&#xA;I carry two sorts of destiny toward the day of my death. Either,&#xD;&#xA;if I stay here and fight beside the city of the Trojans,&#xD;&#xA;my return home is gone, but my glory shall be everlasting;&#xD;&#xA;but if I return home to the beloved land of my fathers,&#xD;&#xA;the excellence of my glory is gone, but there will be a long life&#xD;&#xA;left for me, and my end in death will not come to me quickly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From this, it is obvious that Achilles knew his life would be shorter if he stayed fighting against the Trojans. So his pursuit and later duel with Hector might be even more serious to Achilles, that could be suspicious of his own death as a result of the duel. Is this a valid interpretation, or are there any other passages where it is clear that Achilles does not suspect he might die, or even that he knew the duel's result beforehand?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12584" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3140" RevisionGUID="751100a4-cc7a-4a2b-a980-cc31129f43f3" CreationDate="2017-11-08T20:16:59.460" UserId="4335" Text="Did Achilles suspect he might die by Hector's hands?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12585" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3140" RevisionGUID="751100a4-cc7a-4a2b-a980-cc31129f43f3" CreationDate="2017-11-08T20:16:59.460" UserId="4335" Text="|iliad|achilles|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12586" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3140" RevisionGUID="cf4840fe-8044-4436-9b68-605273184442" CreationDate="2017-11-08T20:22:18.807" UserId="4335" Comment="added clarification" Text="In Richmond Lattimore's translation, the following lines (9.410-416) are a part of Achilles' first speech in Book Nine:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For my mother Thetis the goddess of the silver feet tells me&#xD;&#xA;I carry two sorts of destiny toward the day of my death. Either,&#xD;&#xA;if I stay here and fight beside the city of the Trojans,&#xD;&#xA;my return home is gone, but my glory shall be everlasting;&#xD;&#xA;but if I return home to the beloved land of my fathers,&#xD;&#xA;the excellence of my glory is gone, but there will be a long life&#xD;&#xA;left for me, and my end in death will not come to me quickly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From this, it is obvious that Achilles knew his life would be shorter if he stayed fighting against the Trojans, and that he didn't know exactly how or when his death would happen. So his pursuit and later duel with Hector might be even more serious to Achilles, that could be suspicious of his own death as a result of the duel. Is this a valid interpretation, or are there any other passages where it is clear that Achilles does not suspect he might die, or even that he knew the duel's result beforehand?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12587" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3141" RevisionGUID="64bbe9f5-0cee-40d6-8c43-f8a45655260f" CreationDate="2017-11-08T22:17:12.207" UserId="2892" Text="- the **[Nysiads][1]**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These are they Nymphs of Nysa, who cared for the young Dionysus before his return to Greece. The god's [childhood at Nysa][2] is an important part of his cycle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- the satyr **[Silenus][3]** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;was said to be his tutor at Nysa.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- the great goddess **[Cybele][4]**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;was said to have cured him of his madness, and taught him the mysteries.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nysiads&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus#Infancy_at_Mount_Nysa&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silenus&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybele" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12592" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="2205" RevisionGUID="4a8122d8-4e6e-4dcf-8040-b3440de5cf04" CreationDate="2017-11-09T08:48:27.810" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="12593" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3143" RevisionGUID="90023820-222e-4ee8-ab74-24a791cb4b8f" CreationDate="2017-11-09T12:55:00.120" UserId="3244" Text="Most religions, when and where they developed, were not only a source of power for the priests, but also a convenient set of predefined rules by which people could live their lives.&#xA;&#xA;The problem with this was that most priests altered/made rules in such a manner that *they* themselves could be benefitted by them. Also, some rules caused problems in some, if not many, parts of society.&#xA;&#xA;The people would obviously want to rebel. But going against religion was, literally, blasphemy.&#xA;&#xA;Those of the sheeple who were a bit more mentally capable than the rest deduced that the only way they could get away with disobeying rules was if they were obeying the rules. Thus, the problem was to somehow make a set of conflicting rules, eitther of which they could follow as need arose. The trickster was, obviously, the first and best recourse, and I believe that this might have played a significant role in their popularity.&#xA;&#xA;Not to mention that the trickster, being trickster-y, as one might expect of a young child with adult intelligence, literally if we see Krishna's case, added a much loved *human* element to the previously beyond-thee, impervious Gods. This would, obviously, increase popularity with the masses. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12594" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3141" RevisionGUID="546b26db-9d80-40d2-a68c-867db472ffdb" CreationDate="2017-11-09T20:22:44.650" UserId="2892" Comment="added 943 characters in body" Text="- the **[Nysiads][1]**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These are they Nymphs of Nysa, who cared for the young Dionysus before his return to Greece. The god's [childhood at Nysa][2] is an important part of his cycle, not least because it is a reflection of [Zeus' own infancy][3], hidden from Cronus on Mt. Ida and cared for by nymphs. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- the satyr **[Silenus][4]** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;was said to be his tutor at Nysa.  Like [Chiron][5], Silenus is contradiction in that the races of the two (Centaurs and Satyrs, respectively) are wild and savage, while these named teachers are renowned for their wisdom.  Silenus is a good representation of the dual nature of Dionysus/wine--wine requires cultivation and craft to make, but it intoxicates and over-consumption can lead to irrationality and wild behavior ([maenads][6]).  This outlet of pent up energy in the [Bacchic revels][7] was understood to be beneficial. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- the great goddess **[Cybele][8]**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;was said to have cured him of his madness, and taught him the mysteries. Cybele is often regarded as a goddess with a dual dark and light nature, and would have made quite a formidable and prestigious mentor.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nysiads&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus#Infancy_at_Mount_Nysa&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus#Infancy&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silenus&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiron&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maenad&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacchanalia&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybele" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12595" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3141" RevisionGUID="8b089061-bc62-4ce8-b3fe-04f745696732" CreationDate="2017-11-09T20:28:50.107" UserId="2892" Comment="added 943 characters in body" Text="- the **[Nysiads][1]**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These are they Nymphs of Nysa, who cared for the young Dionysus before his return to Greece. The god's [childhood at Nysa][2] is an important part of his cycle, not least because it is a reflection of [Zeus' own infancy][3], hidden from Cronus on Mt. Ida and cared for by nymphs. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- the satyr **[Silenus][4]** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;was said to be his tutor at Nysa.  Like [Chiron][5], Silenus is contradiction in that the races of the two (Centaurs and Satyrs, respectively) are wild and savage, while these named teachers are renowned for their wisdom.  Silenus is a good representation of the dual nature of Dionysus/wine--wine requires cultivation and craft to make, but it intoxicates and over-consumption can lead to irrationality and wild behavior ([maenads][6]).  This outlet of pent up energy in the [Bacchic revels][7] was understood to be beneficial. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- the great goddess **[Cybele][8]**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;was said to have cured him of his madness, and taught him the mysteries. Cybele is often regarded as a goddess with a dual dark and light nature, and would have made a formidable (and prestigious) mentor.  Like Dionysus, she is associated with &quot;wild music, wine, and a disorderly, ecstatic following.&quot;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nysiads&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus#Infancy_at_Mount_Nysa&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus#Infancy&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silenus&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiron&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maenad&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacchanalia&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybele" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12596" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3129" RevisionGUID="34ece4ba-687c-4f7a-84e9-b04e72796943" CreationDate="2017-11-09T20:41:51.523" UserId="2892" Comment="Slight massaging of the question to make the examples stand out more.  I added Comus here instead of my own answer b/c the Gelos wiki links to it, and the two are related." Text="I know of:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Gelos][1] (divine personification of laughter) &#xD;&#xA;- [Comus][2] (god of festivities, revels, and late-night hookups)  -&#xD;&#xA;- [Agathodaemon][3] (*[daemon][4]* of vinyards and grainfields). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any others?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelos_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agathodaemon&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemon_(classical_mythology)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12598" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3145" RevisionGUID="db163dad-6181-4754-85bd-3f233cd923b7" CreationDate="2017-11-09T21:31:52.927" UserId="3508" Text="The only reference concerning Zeus being associated with poison is this:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Zeus then poisoned [Cronos's] food and Cronus vomited out all his children which includes Hades, Hera, Poseidon, Demeter, and Hestia. They then had a war against Cronus and his titans but Zeus and his siblings won.   &lt;http://www.starsandseas.com/SAS_Mythology/Zeus1.htm&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That is more about a poison being used to induce vomiting than using poison to kill. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12600" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="1744" RevisionGUID="e623e303-5e49-4b34-a363-58363eea6b89" CreationDate="2017-11-10T08:19:23.640" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="12601" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3146" RevisionGUID="3916906a-3007-49ae-be74-9e8d2e306945" CreationDate="2017-11-11T12:54:32.427" UserId="57" Text="The duel in Book 22 is not the first time Achilles and Hector met on the battlefield. The story of their earlier encounter is told by Achilles himself, a little earlier in Book 9: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [346] &quot;Nay, Odysseus, together with thee and the other princes let him take thought to ward from the ships consuming fire. Verily full much hath he wrought without mine aid; lo, he hath builded a wall and digged a ditch hard by, wide and great, and therein hath he planted stakes; yet even so availeth he not to stay the might of man-slaying Hector. But so long as I was warring amid the Achaeans Hector had no mind to rouse battle far from the wall, but would come only so far as the Scaean gates and the oak-tree; there once he awaited me in single combat and hardly did he escape my onset.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Homer. The Iliad. Translated by Murray, A T. Loeb Classical Library Volumes. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1924.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Achilles respects Hector as a warrior, but I think it's obvious that he has no doubt he will prevail over the Trojan prince in single combat. I think it's safe to assume that Achilles had no fear for his life during the duel in Book 22." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12602" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3147" RevisionGUID="4615225f-ef57-4191-98c9-8680efbbccb8" CreationDate="2017-11-11T14:58:49.240" UserId="4344" Text="You do not mention the Snaptun stone, a smith's item used to protect the bellows from the fire by blowing though a hole in the large stone. On the stone is a carving of a bearded face whose lips are sown shut. There is only one myth where lips are sown shut, and that revolves around Loki. In the context of this hearthfire stone this means a warning to the fire deity: &quot;Be not treacherous and do not burn the bellows - remember the traitor's punishment.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is the Danish proverb &quot;Locke beats his children&quot;, spoken when the hearthfire cracks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The contest between Loki and Logi is obviously one between the domestic fire, which consumes only what it ought to consume, and the wildfire, which consumes everything. Loki is considered a friend of the Aesir, in his role as domestic fire, helpful and useful, an indispensable companion in a country like Scandinavia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Loki furnishes the Aesir with Mjölnir, Skidbladnir, Gungnir, Draupnir, Gullenborsti et al. - weapons, jewellery, technical masterpieces that can only be produced by the most skilled smiths. And for smithing you need fire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In American research, the native folklore hero &quot;trickster&quot; has been given much attention. The characteristic traits of the trickster have been compared to deities of European, African and Asian mythology, to fulfill that great scientific dream to find the nucleus of all things.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately, in Loki's case, this has led to a marginalization of his fire qualities." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12603" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3148" RevisionGUID="9e173cd2-27b7-4892-9190-c2310b9a58d9" CreationDate="2017-11-11T23:34:48.287" UserId="4271" Text="The big three- Hades, Poseidon, Zeus,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;the three fates/furies/judges of underworld/elder cyclopes/hecatoncheires(hundred handed ones)/oneiroi(gods of dreams)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Three rules of the universe-primordial gods, titans, gods&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How many others are there?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12604" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3148" RevisionGUID="9e173cd2-27b7-4892-9190-c2310b9a58d9" CreationDate="2017-11-11T23:34:48.287" UserId="4271" Text="How many 3's are in Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12605" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3148" RevisionGUID="9e173cd2-27b7-4892-9190-c2310b9a58d9" CreationDate="2017-11-11T23:34:48.287" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12609" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3149" RevisionGUID="078d0e70-f87c-46e6-9c02-4b5bdb81b871" CreationDate="2017-11-12T23:09:19.673" UserId="2892" Text="Definitively answering the question of &quot;how many&quot; would require an enormous research effort, and it's a little fuzzy in terms of what qualifies.  Being lazy, I only say triads are important and quite common.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I suggest taking a look at:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Tripartite Goddess][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It lists manifestations such as the Boeotian [three muses configuration][2] ([Melete][3], [Aoide][4] and [Mneme][5], which legendarily pre-dates the nine muses.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Maiden/Mother/Crone configurations are particularly prevalent, for instance [Kore][6]/[Demeter][7]/[Rhea][8]. (The prevalence of female triads relates to the three distinct biological conditions related to reproduction--pre-pubescent, fertile, and menopausal. Pagan religions tend to be preoccupied with cycles of generation.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Among the most famous triads are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The [Morai][9] (Three Fates) &#xD;&#xA;- The [Charites][10] (Three Graces)&#xD;&#xA;- The [Horae][11] (Seasons)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More fearsome famous triads are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The [Erinyes/Eumenides][12] (Furies/Kindly Ones)&#xD;&#xA;- The [Gorgons][13]  &#xD;&#xA;- The [Sirens][14]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And of course:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The [Hesperides][15] (&quot;Daughters of the Evening&quot;)&#xD;&#xA; - The [Graeae][16] (Known for sharing a single eye between them)&#xD;&#xA; - The [Oenotropae][17] (&quot;The Winegrowers&quot;)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A famous tri-partite male figure is&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Triptolemus][18] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although it's important to recognize his connection to Demeter and the [Eleusinian Mysteries][19].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_deity#Triple_goddesses&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muses#Number_and_names&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melete&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aoide&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mneme&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persephone&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demeter&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhea_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moirai&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://Charites&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horae&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erinyes&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgon&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siren_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesperides&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeae&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oenotropae&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triptolemus&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleusinian_Mysteries" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12610" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3149" RevisionGUID="be10fc5b-9ad7-41db-bbcc-7a0f562705cf" CreationDate="2017-11-12T23:42:21.143" UserId="2892" Comment="added a couple more examples" Text="Definitively answering the question of &quot;how many&quot; would require an enormous research effort, and it's a little fuzzy in terms of what qualifies.  Being lazy, I only say triads are important and quite common.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I suggest taking a look at:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Tripartite Goddess][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It lists manifestations such as the Boeotian [three muses configuration][2] ([Melete][3], [Aoide][4] and [Mneme][5], which legendarily pre-dates the nine muses.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Maiden/Mother/Crone configurations are particularly prevalent, for instance [Kore][6]/[Demeter][7]/[Rhea][8]. (The prevalence of female triads relates to the three distinct biological conditions related to reproduction--pre-pubescent, fertile, and menopausal. Pagan religions tend to be preoccupied with cycles of generation.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Among the most famous triads are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The [Morai][9] (Three Fates) &#xD;&#xA;- The [Charites][10] (Three Graces)&#xD;&#xA;- The [Horae][11] (Seasons)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More fearsome famous triads are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The [Erinyes/Eumenides][12] (Furies/Kindly Ones)&#xD;&#xA;- The [Gorgons][13]  &#xD;&#xA;- The [Sirens][14]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And of course:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The [Hesperides][15] (&quot;Daughters of the Evening&quot;)&#xD;&#xA; - The [Graeae][16] (Known for sharing a single eye between them)&#xD;&#xA; - The [Oenotropae][17] (&quot;The Winegrowers&quot;)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A famous tri-partite male figure is&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Triptolemus][18] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although it's important to recognize his connection to Demeter and the [Eleusinian Mysteries][19].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Achilles/[Patroclus][20]/Hector&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is an important triad, where the fates of the three warriors are entwined.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The [riddle of the Sphinx (Oedipus)][21]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this famous version of the riddle, &quot;the creature that goes on four legs in the morning, two legs in the day, and three legs at night&quot; is an an analogy for the three phases of human life: childhood, adulthood, old age.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_deity#Triple_goddesses&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muses#Number_and_names&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melete&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aoide&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mneme&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persephone&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demeter&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhea_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moirai&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://Charites&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horae&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erinyes&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgon&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siren_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesperides&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeae&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oenotropae&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triptolemus&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleusinian_Mysteries&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patroclus&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oedipus#Basics_of_the_myth" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12611" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3148" RevisionGUID="acbeeb0c-618a-4194-8ac3-1da381e9c781" CreationDate="2017-11-13T08:44:03.330" UserId="57" Comment="added 44 characters in body; edited title" Text="There are the big three: Hades, Poseidon, Zeus. Furthermore, the Fates, the Furies, the judges of the Underworld, the elder Cyclopes, the Hecatoncheires and the Oneiroi.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are also three rules of the universe: the primordials, the Titans, and the Olympians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How many others are there?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12612" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3148" RevisionGUID="acbeeb0c-618a-4194-8ac3-1da381e9c781" CreationDate="2017-11-13T08:44:03.330" UserId="57" Comment="added 44 characters in body; edited title" Text="How many triads are there in Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12613" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="3148" RevisionGUID="7e2a66bc-3540-4d4a-962f-bede2dd225fa" CreationDate="2017-11-13T09:19:37.163" UserId="108" Comment="104" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:2774,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Gibet&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:108,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Semaphore&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="12619" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3151" RevisionGUID="3674e25f-d4ff-4511-96ee-88e98d2e9d81" CreationDate="2017-11-13T20:31:39.720" UserId="2892" Text="- This is definitely a conflation of Norse and Greek mythology.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As several have pointed out, this punishment listed is [Loki][1]'s, and does not appear in Greek or Roman myth. [Prometheus][2]' binding is similar, and likely the source of the confusion.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most famous poison story from Greek mythology involves [Heracles][3], [Deianira][4], and the wicked centaur [Nessus][5].  [Note: this torment is due to the wrath of Hera, not Zeus.  Even though Hercules has finished his labors, and is said to have &quot;finally appeased the hatred of his fierce stepmother&quot;, his absence from his wife may be understood as a slight against the wife of Zeus, [Goddess of Marriage][6]. Indeed, it is this absence and Deianira's anxiety over her husband's love that leads her to unwittingly destroy him.] Here are some excerpts:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Hercules] shot an arrow through the centaur's back,&#xD;&#xA;so that the keen barb was exposed beyond&#xD;&#xA;his bleeding breast. He tore it from both wounds,&#xD;&#xA;and life-blood spurted instantly, mixed with&#xD;&#xA;the deadly poison of Lernaean hydra.&#xD;&#xA;This Nessus caught, and muttering, “I shall not&#xD;&#xA;die unavenged”, he gave his tunic, soaked&#xD;&#xA;with blood to Deianira as a gift;&#xD;&#xA;and said, “Keep this to strengthen waning love.”&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[*Metamorphosis*, Ovid, Book IX][7]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Time passes and the plot thickens:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...tattling Rumor, swollen out of truth&#xD;&#xA;from small beginning to a wicked lie,&#xD;&#xA;declared brave Hercules, Amphitryon's son,&#xD;&#xA;was burning for the love of Iole.&#xD;&#xA;And Deianira—his fond wife—convinced&#xD;&#xA;herself, the wicked rumor must be true.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[ibid.][7]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The rumors prove too much for Deianira:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So, torn by many moods, at last [Deianira's] mind&#xD;&#xA;fixed on one thought:—she might still keep his love,&#xD;&#xA;could certainly restore it, if she sent&#xD;&#xA;to him the tunic soaked in Nessus' blood.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[ibid.][7]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And the result:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The hero then was casting frankincense&#xD;&#xA;into the sacred flames, and pouring wine&#xD;&#xA;on marble altars, as his holy prayers&#xD;&#xA;were floating to the Gods. The hallowed heat&#xD;&#xA;striking upon his poisoned vesture, caused&#xD;&#xA;Echidna-bane to melt into his flesh.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;As long as he was able he withstood&#xD;&#xA;the torture. His great fortitude was strong.&#xD;&#xA;But when at last his anguish overcame&#xD;&#xA;even his endurance, he filled all the wild&#xD;&#xA;of Oeta with his cries: he overturned&#xD;&#xA;those hallowed altars, then in frenzied haste&#xD;&#xA;he strove to pull the tunic from his back.&#xD;&#xA;The poisoned garment, cleaving to him, ripped&#xD;&#xA;his skin, heat-shriveled, from his burning flesh.&#xD;&#xA;Or, tightening on him, as his great strength pulled,&#xD;&#xA;stripped with it the great muscles from his limbs,&#xD;&#xA;leaving his huge bones bare.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Even his blood&#xD;&#xA;audibly hissed, as red-hot blades when they&#xD;&#xA;are plunged in water, so the burning bane&#xD;&#xA;boiled in his veins. Great perspiration streamed&#xD;&#xA;from his dissolving body, as the heat&#xD;&#xA;consumed his entrails; and his sinews cracked,&#xD;&#xA;brittle when burnt. The marrow in his bones&#xD;&#xA;dissolved, as it absorbed the venom-heat.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[ibid.][7]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;The story is so famous, T.S. Eliot wrote about it in the Four Quartets:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Who then devised the torment? Love. &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Love is the unfamiliar Name&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Behind the hands that wove &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The intolerable shirt of flame&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Which human power cannot remove.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;We only live, only suspire &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Consumed by either fire or fire.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Little Gidding, IV][8]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*[You can read more about it here][9].*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki#Lokasenna&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus#Athenian_tradition&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heracles#Death&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deianira#Death_of_Heracles&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nessus_(mythology)#Mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hera&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D98&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.columbia.edu/itc/history/winter/w3206/edit/tseliotlittlegidding.html&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2447/what-is-the-meaning-of-hercules-self-immolation" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12620" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3134" RevisionGUID="367a0076-5e68-41d7-a2db-d62443f471cb" CreationDate="2017-11-14T00:04:56.027" UserId="3315" Comment="added 247 characters in body" Text="This is a special tag that is designed to be used only by the system for questions that have had all of their other tags removed. Do not add this tag to existing questions, it is reserved for use by the system to identify posts with no valid tags." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12621" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3134" RevisionGUID="367a0076-5e68-41d7-a2db-d62443f471cb" CreationDate="2017-11-14T00:04:56.027" Comment="Proposed by 3315 approved by 2774, 967 edit id of 505" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12623" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3151" RevisionGUID="869f53e2-1cac-44ca-818b-366cafdbb790" CreationDate="2017-11-14T22:24:05.197" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 229 characters in body" Text="- This is definitely a conflation of Norse and Greek mythology.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As several have pointed out, this punishment listed is [Loki][1]'s, and does not appear in Greek or Roman myth. The confusion likely arises from similarities of [Prometheus][2]/Loki, as trickster/benefactors who were bound and tortured.  Likewise, Zeus/Odin are similar as scheming &quot;sky father&quot; rulers of the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most famous poison story from Greek mythology may be the one involving [Heracles][3], [Deianira][4], and the wicked centaur [Nessus][5].  [Note: this torment is due to the wrath of Hera, not Zeus.  Even though Hercules has finished his labors, and is said to have &quot;finally appeased the hatred of his fierce stepmother&quot;, his absence from his wife may be understood as a slight against the wife of Zeus, [Goddess of Marriage][6]. Indeed, it is this absence and Deianira's anxiety over her husband's love that leads her to unwittingly destroy him.] Here are some excerpts:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Hercules] shot an arrow through the centaur's back,&#xD;&#xA;so that the keen barb was exposed beyond&#xD;&#xA;his bleeding breast. He tore it from both wounds,&#xD;&#xA;and life-blood spurted instantly, mixed with&#xD;&#xA;the deadly poison of Lernaean hydra.&#xD;&#xA;This Nessus caught, and muttering, “I shall not&#xD;&#xA;die unavenged”, he gave his tunic, soaked&#xD;&#xA;with blood to Deianira as a gift;&#xD;&#xA;and said, “Keep this to strengthen waning love.”&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[*Metamorphosis*, Ovid, Book IX][7]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Time passes and the plot thickens:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...tattling Rumor, swollen out of truth&#xD;&#xA;from small beginning to a wicked lie,&#xD;&#xA;declared brave Hercules, Amphitryon's son,&#xD;&#xA;was burning for the love of Iole.&#xD;&#xA;And Deianira—his fond wife—convinced&#xD;&#xA;herself, the wicked rumor must be true.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[ibid.][7]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The rumors prove too much for Deianira:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So, torn by many moods, at last [Deianira's] mind&#xD;&#xA;fixed on one thought:—she might still keep his love,&#xD;&#xA;could certainly restore it, if she sent&#xD;&#xA;to him the tunic soaked in Nessus' blood.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[ibid.][7]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And the result:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The hero then was casting frankincense&#xD;&#xA;into the sacred flames, and pouring wine&#xD;&#xA;on marble altars, as his holy prayers&#xD;&#xA;were floating to the Gods. The hallowed heat&#xD;&#xA;striking upon his poisoned vesture, caused&#xD;&#xA;Echidna-bane to melt into his flesh.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;As long as he was able he withstood&#xD;&#xA;the torture. His great fortitude was strong.&#xD;&#xA;But when at last his anguish overcame&#xD;&#xA;even his endurance, he filled all the wild&#xD;&#xA;of Oeta with his cries: he overturned&#xD;&#xA;those hallowed altars, then in frenzied haste&#xD;&#xA;he strove to pull the tunic from his back.&#xD;&#xA;The poisoned garment, cleaving to him, ripped&#xD;&#xA;his skin, heat-shriveled, from his burning flesh.&#xD;&#xA;Or, tightening on him, as his great strength pulled,&#xD;&#xA;stripped with it the great muscles from his limbs,&#xD;&#xA;leaving his huge bones bare.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Even his blood&#xD;&#xA;audibly hissed, as red-hot blades when they&#xD;&#xA;are plunged in water, so the burning bane&#xD;&#xA;boiled in his veins. Great perspiration streamed&#xD;&#xA;from his dissolving body, as the heat&#xD;&#xA;consumed his entrails; and his sinews cracked,&#xD;&#xA;brittle when burnt. The marrow in his bones&#xD;&#xA;dissolved, as it absorbed the venom-heat.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[ibid.][7]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*[You can read more about it here][9].*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki#Lokasenna&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus#Athenian_tradition&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heracles#Death&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deianira#Death_of_Heracles&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nessus_(mythology)#Mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hera&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D98&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.columbia.edu/itc/history/winter/w3206/edit/tseliotlittlegidding.html&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2447/what-is-the-meaning-of-hercules-self-immolation" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12624" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3145" RevisionGUID="c0b0aaeb-1836-4bfb-aae8-13feb2366fde" CreationDate="2017-11-14T22:34:49.117" UserId="2892" Comment="The sourcing for this answer was non-academic so I linked to the source text, provided some detail, and a note on the terminology." Text="The only reference concerning Zeus being associated with poison is this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;But when Zeus was full-grown, he took Metis, daughter of Ocean, to help him, and she gave Cronus a drug to swallow, which forced him to disgorge first the stone and then the children whom he had swallowed.   &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Apollodorus, *Library*, 1.2.1][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That is more about a poison being used to induce vomiting than using poison to kill, although Apollodorus continues:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and with [his disgorged brothers' and sisters'] aid Zeus waged the war against Cronus and the Titans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which eventually led to the overthrowing of Cronus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------&#xD;&#xA;Note: the word used by Apollodorus is [φάρμακον (pharmakon)][2] from which we derive modern terms such as &quot;pharmaceutical&quot;.  Meanings range from medicine to drug to poison, and the word can also be used to connote a [sacrificial victim][3]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D2%3Asection%3D1&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dfa%2Frmakon&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dfarmako%2Fs2" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12625" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3148" RevisionGUID="ef45c840-855f-496c-ba37-312d997f1500" CreationDate="2017-11-15T02:16:47.090" UserId="2892" Comment="Edited to make the question more generally about triads in Greek Mythology" Text="There are the big three: Hades, Poseidon, Zeus. Furthermore, the Fates, the Furies, the judges of the Underworld, the elder Cyclopes, the Hecatoncheires and the Oneiroi.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are also three rules of the universe: the [Primordials][1], the [Titans][2], and the [Olympians][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there many other examples, and if so, why are they so prevalent. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_primordial_deities&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Olympians" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12626" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3148" RevisionGUID="ef45c840-855f-496c-ba37-312d997f1500" CreationDate="2017-11-15T02:16:47.090" UserId="2892" Comment="Edited to make the question more generally about triads in Greek Mythology" Text="Triads in Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12628" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3152" RevisionGUID="19525773-c86f-46e1-86be-6a1fe21244c1" CreationDate="2017-11-15T16:19:05.473" UserId="2892" Text="What were his motivations?  Was he jealous?  Was it pure spite?  Was he trying to teach the gods a lesson?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why was it important for him to utilize an agent (Hodur) in the assassination? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12629" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3152" RevisionGUID="19525773-c86f-46e1-86be-6a1fe21244c1" CreationDate="2017-11-15T16:19:05.473" UserId="2892" Text="Why did Loki want Baldur dead?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12630" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3152" RevisionGUID="19525773-c86f-46e1-86be-6a1fe21244c1" CreationDate="2017-11-15T16:19:05.473" UserId="2892" Text="|norse|loki|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12631" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3153" RevisionGUID="89f6d9d6-713d-47d6-9f18-4f1018d51d01" CreationDate="2017-11-15T19:10:23.640" UserId="292" Text="The Prose Edda is unclear on this. All it tells us is that when Loki saw that Baldr could not be harmed,&quot;he was not pleased&quot;. ([Gylfaginning][1] 49) In my own opinion, the way that Loki's three children by [Angrboda][2]: Hel, the World Serpent and the Fenris wolf were bound or cast out might have something to do with it. (G[ylf. 34-5][1]) They may be monsters, but to Loki they're his kids.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre04.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angrbo%C3%B0a" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12632" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3154" RevisionGUID="04497837-e436-4d9c-96af-483ccef595b0" CreationDate="2017-11-15T20:23:16.847" UserId="666" Text="The why is largely a mystery, and depends a fair bit on exactly what you perceive Loki's general function to be (Jens Peter Schjødt seems to have considered Loki a sort of personification of fate, growing more and more adverse to the gods as their time progresses), but perhaps we can say something about the second part of the question. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First, we should note that Odin and Loki were foster brothers (*Lokasenna*, verse 9), i.e. had mixed their blood and thus were considered as brothers. This would have meant a strong taboo against bearing hand on any of the other's near kin, something we perhaps can still see when Loki is later punished: none of the gods directly injures him or his sons, instead transforming one to kill the other (though this might also be seen as poetic justice).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But perhaps you do not see Loki as one to be bothered with such things? If so, we can instead see the use of a proxy as a way to twist the knife even further: by letting Baldr be killed by another son of Odin, Loki was effectively preventing Odin from seeking direct justice, something that was deeply shameful. In *Beowulf*, king Hrethel had two sons, Herebeald and Hæthcyn, until Hæthcyn killed his older brother in an hunting accident. Since it was not possible for Hrethel to take revenge, he eventually died from grief and shame. Odin instead circumvented this by fathering a new son that could take revenge.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;Margaret Clunies Ross' *Prolonged echoes* discusses this a fair bit, but she tries to fit this all in an overarching ideology of the stories that I find less than convincing. She does discuss the problem of seeking revenge within your own family.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gro Steinsland in *Fornnordisk religion* tries to present several different interpretations, but most of them focuses on Baldr rather than Loki.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2256/666" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12634" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3156" RevisionGUID="58d28c3f-37ec-4754-86f7-489ad7c1be91" CreationDate="2017-11-16T23:00:40.373" UserId="2892" Text="Full disclosure, this question relates to the Marvel Comics conception of Thor going *[mano a mano][1]* with the Incredible Hulk, and taking some pretty big hits, including repeated hulkian punches to the face that drive his body into the dirt of the arena.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But there are many elements to the Marvel conception that are faithful to the mythological character.  For instance, when Dr. Strange offers him tea, Thor is uninterested, but when Dr. Strange converts it to a huge mug of beer, Thor, very casually, nearly drains it in one go, and the mug magically refills, clearly a reference to the [third ríma of the Lokrur][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So my question is this: what can we infer about Thor's physical resilience, particularly regarding physical punishment, from the actual mythological sources?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mano_a_mano&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lokrur#Third_r.C3.ADma" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12635" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3156" RevisionGUID="58d28c3f-37ec-4754-86f7-489ad7c1be91" CreationDate="2017-11-16T23:00:40.373" UserId="2892" Text="Does Thor's strength confer a degree of physical invulnerability?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12636" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3156" RevisionGUID="58d28c3f-37ec-4754-86f7-489ad7c1be91" CreationDate="2017-11-16T23:00:40.373" UserId="2892" Text="|thor|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12637" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3157" RevisionGUID="5b031c4a-0e5f-4d7c-a3bb-1b886306fbb6" CreationDate="2017-11-17T01:43:12.167" UserId="4358" Text="I cant find many animals that were represented as gods and I am writing an Essay on ancient Egypt." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12638" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3157" RevisionGUID="5b031c4a-0e5f-4d7c-a3bb-1b886306fbb6" CreationDate="2017-11-17T01:43:12.167" UserId="4358" Text="What animals were represented in gods in ancient Egypt?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12639" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3157" RevisionGUID="5b031c4a-0e5f-4d7c-a3bb-1b886306fbb6" CreationDate="2017-11-17T01:43:12.167" UserId="4358" Text="|animals|american-gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12640" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3157" RevisionGUID="62bfb338-bf0d-4a4e-a52f-db331fc24862" CreationDate="2017-11-17T04:19:43.173" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved  spelling and did one retag." Text="I cannot find many animals that were represented as gods and I am writing an essay on ancient Egypt." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12641" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3157" RevisionGUID="62bfb338-bf0d-4a4e-a52f-db331fc24862" CreationDate="2017-11-17T04:19:43.173" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved  spelling and did one retag." Text="|egyptian|animals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12642" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3158" RevisionGUID="1e1f7e96-4fa1-41af-b00f-1605c9345323" CreationDate="2017-11-17T09:31:48.050" UserId="4360" Text="The title says it (almost) all.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm searching for a deity whose aspects are **BOTH** fire and water. Any religion/pantheon is ok.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It could be a greater spirit or something like that, but I prefer a god." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12643" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3158" RevisionGUID="1e1f7e96-4fa1-41af-b00f-1605c9345323" CreationDate="2017-11-17T09:31:48.050" UserId="4360" Text="Searching for a deity of water and fire?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12644" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3158" RevisionGUID="1e1f7e96-4fa1-41af-b00f-1605c9345323" CreationDate="2017-11-17T09:31:48.050" UserId="4360" Text="|pantheon|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12645" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3158" RevisionGUID="cc599757-f8b8-485d-a23a-a8cc25b4fb3c" CreationDate="2017-11-17T11:45:57.207" UserId="4360" Comment="added 125 characters in body" Text="The title says it (almost) all.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm searching for a deity whose aspects are **BOTH** fire and water. Any religion/pantheon is ok.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It could be a greater spirit or something like that, but I prefer a god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Edit 1: I'm looking for a deity that whose domains are exclusively fire and water. No omnipotence and other bigger stuff." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12647" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3159" RevisionGUID="39d72200-d2b3-400d-9a5e-a22627b90c5e" CreationDate="2017-11-17T15:56:24.453" UserId="666" Text="Thor can take a lot, but he is not invulnerable&#xD;&#xA;------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The best example of this is in the story of Hrungnir. In the duel with the obnoxious giant, Thor's hammer Mjölnir collides with the whetstone Hrungnir uses as a weapon. The whetstone splits in two, and one part hits Thor in the head, and gets stuck there. The Völva Groa tries to use her galders to get it out, but fails, so Thor permanently has a piece of whetstone stuck in his head. It is also said that you should not throw whetstones across the room, because then the stone moves in Thor's head, so apparently this is at least an inconvenience to him (*Skáldskaparmál*, 17).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another indication is that Thor owns the iron gloves *Járngreipr*, which he &quot;cannot spare&quot; when he is using Mjölnir (*Gylfaginning*, 21). This might be to protect his hands, or be a necessary aid to wield the hammer correctly, since it notoriously had a somewhat short handle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, we should note that while Thor at Ragnarök is able to slay the Midgard serpent, after doing so, he will take nine steps before succumbing to its poison (*Gylfaginning*, 51). " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12648" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3160" RevisionGUID="cf502ca3-ea4c-4a9c-afce-8e4682382453" CreationDate="2017-11-17T19:07:46.787" UserId="2892" Text="**Lion: [Aker][1]** &#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Pat Remler: *Egyptian Mythology, A to Z.* Infobase Publishing, 2010, ISBN 1438131801, pp. 4 &amp; 5.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Lion/Hippopotamus/Crocodile: [Ammit, the Soul Eater][2]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Hart, George (2005). *The Routledge Dictionary of Egyptian Gods and Goddesses, Second Edition.* Routledge.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Falcon: [Anti][3]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&quot;The Contendings of Horus and Seth&quot; in William Kelly Simpson (ed.), *The Literature of Ancient Egypt*, 1972&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**African Golden Wolf *(formerly Jackal)*: [Anubis][4]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Wilkinson, Toby A. H. (1999), *Early Dynastic Egypt.* Routledge.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Serpent: [Apophis][5]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;C.Wolterman, in *Jaarbericht van Ex Oriente Lux*, (2002)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Mighty Bull: [Apis][6]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt; Kahl, J. *&quot;Ra is My Lord&quot;: Searching for the Rise of the Sun God at the Dawn of Egyptian History*, 2007, p.59.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Lion/Vulture/Hawk/Snake: [Ash][7]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Hart, George, *The Routledge Dictionary of Egyptian Gods and Goddesses* (2nd ed.), 2005, London: Routledge&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Francoise Dunand, Christiane Zivie-Coche, *Gods and Men in Egypt: 3000 BCE to 395 CE*, Cornell University Press 2005, p.344&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Baboon: [Babi][8]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Hart, George (2005). *The Routledge Dictionary of Egyptian Gods and Goddesses, Second Edition.* Routledge.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ram: [Banebdjedet][9]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Handbook of Egyptian mythology, Geraldine Pinch, p 114-115, Oxford University Press, 2004&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Cat: [Bast][10]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Serpell, &quot;Domestication and History of the Cat&quot;, p. 184.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Grey Heron: [Bennu][11]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Wilkinson, Richard H., *The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt*, 2003. p. 212&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Cow: [Hathor][12]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;*Religion in ancient Egypt: gods, myths, and personal practice*, Byron Esely Shafer, John Baines, Leonard H. Lesko, David P. Silverman, p. 24 Fordham University, Taylor &amp; Francis, 1991&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Fish: [Hatmehit][13]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Wilkinson, Richard H., *The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt*, 2003. p.228–229&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Scorpion: [Hedetet][14]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Wilkinson, Richard H., *The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt*, 2003. p. 230&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Falcon: [Horus][15]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Wilkinson, Richard H., *The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt*, 2003. p. 202&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Scarab Beetle: [Khepri][16]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Hart, George (2005). *The Routledge Dictionary of Egyptian Gods and Goddesses*. Routledge. pp. 84–85&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Wily Mongoose: [Mafdet][17]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Wilkinson, Richard H., *The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt*, 2003. p. 196&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Cobra: [Meretseger][18]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;*&quot;Essays on ancient Egypt in honour of Herman te Velde&quot;*, Herman te Velde, Jacobus van Dijk, p71, Brill Publishers, 1997&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Vulture: [Nekhbet][19]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Bailleul-LeSuer, Rozenn (ed), *Between Heaven and Earth: Birds in Ancient Egypt.* The Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago. pp. 61–62, 138&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Aardvark/Donkey/Jackal/Fox(?): [Set][20]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;te Velde, Herman (1967). Seth, God of Confusion: A Study of His Role in Egyptian Mythology and Religion. Probleme der Ägyptologie 6. Translated by van Baaren-Pape, G. E. (2nd ed.). Leiden: E. J. Brill.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Crocodile: [Sobek][21]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Bresciani, Edda. *&quot;Sobek, Lord of the Land of the Lake&quot;*. In *Divine Creatures: Animal Mummies in Ancient Egypt*, edited by Salima Ikram, 199–206. Cairo: The American University in Cairo Press, 2005&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hippopotamus: [Taweret][22]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Jennifer Houser-Wegner, &quot;Taweret,&quot; in *The Ancient Gods Speak : A Guide to Egyptian Religion*, ed. Donald Redford (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2002), 351-352.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hare: [Unut][23]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt; Erik Hornung, *Conceptions of God in Ancient Egypt: The One and the Many*, Cornell University Press 1996, p. 82&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_________________________________________________&#xD;&#xA;To help you with your research efforts, I'm including a note about how I went about compiling information for this answer.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I did a search for Egyptian gods and found a [Wikipedia page with an extensive list of Egyptian Deities][24]. (*The list may not be 100% complete, but should be sufficient for undergraduate work. IMPORTANT: Wikipedia on it's own is not generally considered acceptable as a source, but the better articles will include citations to scholarly sources, which are acceptable. Any information that does not carry a citation is considered unreliable and must be externally validated. For university-level work, you are expected read the cited source material, which may involve going to the library;*)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Using the master list, I checked each entry, checked for citations, then aggregated into a list of animal-deities.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aker_(deity)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammit&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anubis&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apep&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apis_(deity)&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ash_(deity)&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banebdjedet&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastet&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bennu&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hathor&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatmehit&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedetet&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horus&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khepri&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafdet&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meretseger&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nekhbet&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_(deity)&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sobek&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taweret&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unut&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Egyptian_deities" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12649" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3160" RevisionGUID="bb23e132-67ab-4400-b895-7b781224bce8" CreationDate="2017-11-17T19:46:37.553" UserId="2892" Comment="added 1023 characters in body" Text="**Lion: [Aker][1]** &#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Pat Remler: *Egyptian Mythology, A to Z.* Infobase Publishing, 2010, ISBN 1438131801, pp. 4 &amp; 5.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Lion/Hippopotamus/Crocodile: [Ammit, the Soul Eater][2]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Hart, George (2005). *The Routledge Dictionary of Egyptian Gods and Goddesses, Second Edition.* Routledge.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Falcon: [Anti][3]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&quot;The Contendings of Horus and Seth&quot; in William Kelly Simpson (ed.), *The Literature of Ancient Egypt*, 1972&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**African Golden Wolf *(formerly Jackal)*: [Anubis][4]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Wilkinson, Toby A. H. (1999), *Early Dynastic Egypt.* Routledge.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Serpent: [Apophis][5]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;C.Wolterman, in *Jaarbericht van Ex Oriente Lux*, (2002)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Mighty Bull: [Apis][6]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt; Kahl, J. *&quot;Ra is My Lord&quot;: Searching for the Rise of the Sun God at the Dawn of Egyptian History*, 2007, p.59.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Lion/Vulture/Hawk/Snake: [Ash][7]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Hart, George, *The Routledge Dictionary of Egyptian Gods and Goddesses* (2nd ed.), 2005, London: Routledge&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Francoise Dunand, Christiane Zivie-Coche, *Gods and Men in Egypt: 3000 BCE to 395 CE*, Cornell University Press 2005, p.344&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Baboon: [Babi][8]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Hart, George (2005). *The Routledge Dictionary of Egyptian Gods and Goddesses, Second Edition.* Routledge.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ram: [Banebdjedet][9]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Handbook of Egyptian mythology, Geraldine Pinch, p 114-115, Oxford University Press, 2004&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Cat: [Bast][10]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Serpell, &quot;Domestication and History of the Cat&quot;, p. 184.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Grey Heron: [Bennu][11]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Wilkinson, Richard H., *The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt*, 2003. p. 212&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Cow: [Hathor][12]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;*Religion in ancient Egypt: gods, myths, and personal practice*, Byron Esely Shafer, John Baines, Leonard H. Lesko, David P. Silverman, p. 24 Fordham University, Taylor &amp; Francis, 1991&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Fish: [Hatmehit][13]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Wilkinson, Richard H., *The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt*, 2003. p.228–229&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Scorpion: [Hedetet][14]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Wilkinson, Richard H., *The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt*, 2003. p. 230&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Falcon: [Horus][15]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Wilkinson, Richard H., *The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt*, 2003. p. 202&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Scarab Beetle: [Khepri][16]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Hart, George (2005). *The Routledge Dictionary of Egyptian Gods and Goddesses*. Routledge. pp. 84–85&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Wily Mongoose: [Mafdet][17]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Wilkinson, Richard H., *The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt*, 2003. p. 196&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Cobra: [Meretseger][18]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;*&quot;Essays on ancient Egypt in honour of Herman te Velde&quot;*, Herman te Velde, Jacobus van Dijk, p71, Brill Publishers, 1997&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Vulture: [Nekhbet][19]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Bailleul-LeSuer, Rozenn (ed), *Between Heaven and Earth: Birds in Ancient Egypt.* The Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago. pp. 61–62, 138&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Lioness: [Sekhmet][20]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Oxford Living Dictionaries][21]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Aardvark/Donkey/Jackal/Fox(?): [Set][22]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;te Velde, Herman (1967). Seth, *God of Confusion: A Study of His Role in Egyptian Mythology and Religion*. Probleme der Ägyptologie 6. Translated by van Baaren-Pape, G. E. (2nd ed.). Leiden: E. J. Brill.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Crocodile: [Sobek][23]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Bresciani, Edda. *&quot;Sobek, Lord of the Land of the Lake&quot;*. In *Divine Creatures: Animal Mummies in Ancient Egypt*, edited by Salima Ikram, 199–206. Cairo: The American University in Cairo Press, 2005&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hippopotamus: [Taweret][24]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Jennifer Houser-Wegner, &quot;Taweret,&quot; in *The Ancient Gods Speak : A Guide to Egyptian Religion*, ed. Donald Redford (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2002), 351-352.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hare: [Unut][25]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt; Erik Hornung, *Conceptions of God in Ancient Egypt: The One and the Many*, Cornell University Press 1996, p. 82&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_________________________________________________&#xD;&#xA;To help you with your research efforts, I'm including a note about how I went about compiling information for this answer.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I did a search for Egyptian gods and found a [Wikipedia page with an extensive list of Egyptian Deities][26]. (*The list may not be 100% complete, but should be sufficient for undergraduate work. IMPORTANT: Wikipedia on it's own is not generally considered acceptable as a source, but the better articles will include citations to scholarly sources, which are acceptable. Any information that does not carry a citation is considered unreliable and must be externally validated. For university-level work, you are expected read the cited source material, which may involve going to the library;*)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Using the master list, I checked each entry, checked for citations, then aggregated into a list of animal-deities. For the most part, I avoided repetition of animals (there are numerous other instances of Egyptian gods represented as lions, which seems to relate to warfare, including [Mehit][27],[Menhit][28], [Apedemak][29], [Maahes, son of Bast][30], [Pakhet][31] and [Sheshmetet][32].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The wiki for the well-known goddess Sekhmet has a distinct lack of citations, so I went to the Oxford Dictionaries.  For your purposes, this may be a suitable reference.  For instance, the entry on mighty [Apis][33]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aker_(deity)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammit&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anubis&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apep&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apis_(deity)&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ash_(deity)&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banebdjedet&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastet&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bennu&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hathor&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatmehit&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedetet&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horus&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khepri&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafdet&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meretseger&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nekhbet&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sekhmet&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/sekhmet&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_(deity)&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sobek&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taweret&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unut&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Egyptian_deities&#xD;&#xA;  [27]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehit&#xD;&#xA;  [28]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menhit&#xD;&#xA;  [29]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apedemak&#xD;&#xA;  [30]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maahes&#xD;&#xA;  [31]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakhet&#xD;&#xA;  [32]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shesmetet&#xD;&#xA;  [33]: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/apis" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12650" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3160" RevisionGUID="bff05f05-3350-46c4-b60f-f9ce413e1c1f" CreationDate="2017-11-17T19:56:56.250" UserId="2892" Comment="added 160 characters in body" Text="Animals representations are quite common in Egyptian mythology.  Here is a partial list of Ancient Egyptian deities with animal associations and attributes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Lion: [Aker][1]** &#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Pat Remler: *Egyptian Mythology, A to Z.* Infobase Publishing, 2010, ISBN 1438131801, pp. 4 &amp; 5.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Lion/Hippopotamus/Crocodile: [Ammit, the Soul Eater][2]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Hart, George (2005). *The Routledge Dictionary of Egyptian Gods and Goddesses, Second Edition.* Routledge.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Falcon: [Anti][3]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&quot;The Contendings of Horus and Seth&quot; in William Kelly Simpson (ed.), *The Literature of Ancient Egypt*, 1972&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**African Golden Wolf *(formerly Jackal)*: [Anubis][4]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Wilkinson, Toby A. H. (1999), *Early Dynastic Egypt.* Routledge.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Serpent: [Apophis][5]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;C.Wolterman, in *Jaarbericht van Ex Oriente Lux*, (2002)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Mighty Bull: [Apis][6]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt; Kahl, J. *&quot;Ra is My Lord&quot;: Searching for the Rise of the Sun God at the Dawn of Egyptian History*, 2007, p.59.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Lion/Vulture/Hawk/Snake: [Ash][7]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Hart, George, *The Routledge Dictionary of Egyptian Gods and Goddesses* (2nd ed.), 2005, London: Routledge&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Francoise Dunand, Christiane Zivie-Coche, *Gods and Men in Egypt: 3000 BCE to 395 CE*, Cornell University Press 2005, p.344&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Baboon: [Babi][8]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Hart, George (2005). *The Routledge Dictionary of Egyptian Gods and Goddesses, Second Edition.* Routledge.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ram: [Banebdjedet][9]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Handbook of Egyptian mythology, Geraldine Pinch, p 114-115, Oxford University Press, 2004&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Cat: [Bast][10]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Serpell, &quot;Domestication and History of the Cat&quot;, p. 184.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Grey Heron: [Bennu][11]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Wilkinson, Richard H., *The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt*, 2003. p. 212&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Cow: [Hathor][12]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;*Religion in ancient Egypt: gods, myths, and personal practice*, Byron Esely Shafer, John Baines, Leonard H. Lesko, David P. Silverman, p. 24 Fordham University, Taylor &amp; Francis, 1991&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Fish: [Hatmehit][13]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Wilkinson, Richard H., *The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt*, 2003. p.228–229&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Scorpion: [Hedetet][14]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Wilkinson, Richard H., *The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt*, 2003. p. 230&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Falcon: [Horus][15]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Wilkinson, Richard H., *The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt*, 2003. p. 202&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Scarab Beetle: [Khepri][16]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Hart, George (2005). *The Routledge Dictionary of Egyptian Gods and Goddesses*. Routledge. pp. 84–85&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Wily Mongoose: [Mafdet][17]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Wilkinson, Richard H., *The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt*, 2003. p. 196&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Cobra: [Meretseger][18]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;*&quot;Essays on ancient Egypt in honour of Herman te Velde&quot;*, Herman te Velde, Jacobus van Dijk, p71, Brill Publishers, 1997&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Vulture: [Nekhbet][19]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Bailleul-LeSuer, Rozenn (ed), *Between Heaven and Earth: Birds in Ancient Egypt.* The Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago. pp. 61–62, 138&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Lioness: [Sekhmet][20]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Oxford Living Dictionaries][21]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Aardvark/Donkey/Jackal/Fox(?): [Set][22]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;te Velde, Herman (1967). Seth, *God of Confusion: A Study of His Role in Egyptian Mythology and Religion*. Probleme der Ägyptologie 6. Translated by van Baaren-Pape, G. E. (2nd ed.). Leiden: E. J. Brill.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Crocodile: [Sobek][23]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Bresciani, Edda. *&quot;Sobek, Lord of the Land of the Lake&quot;*. In *Divine Creatures: Animal Mummies in Ancient Egypt*, edited by Salima Ikram, 199–206. Cairo: The American University in Cairo Press, 2005&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hippopotamus: [Taweret][24]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Jennifer Houser-Wegner, &quot;Taweret,&quot; in *The Ancient Gods Speak : A Guide to Egyptian Religion*, ed. Donald Redford (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2002), 351-352.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hare: [Unut][25]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt; Erik Hornung, *Conceptions of God in Ancient Egypt: The One and the Many*, Cornell University Press 1996, p. 82&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_________________________________________________&#xD;&#xA;To help you with your research efforts, I'm including a note about how I went about compiling information for this answer.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I did a search for Egyptian gods and found a [Wikipedia page with an extensive list of Egyptian Deities][26]. (*The list may not be 100% complete, but should be sufficient for undergraduate work. IMPORTANT: Wikipedia on it's own is not generally considered acceptable as a source, but the better articles will include citations to scholarly sources, which are acceptable. Any information that does not carry a citation is considered unreliable and must be externally validated. For university-level work, you are expected read the cited source material, which may involve going to the library;*)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Using the master list, I checked each entry, checked for citations, then aggregated into a list of animal-deities. For the most part, I avoided repetition of animals. (There are numerous other instances of Egyptian gods represented as lions and lionesses, which relate to warfare, including [Mehit][27],&#xD;&#xA; [Menhit][28], [Apedemak][29], [Maahes son of Bast][30], [Pakhet][31] and [Sheshmetet][32].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The wiki for the well-known goddess Sekhmet has a distinct lack of citations, so I went to the Oxford Dictionaries.  For your purposes, this may be a suitable reference.  For instance, the entry on mighty [Apis][33]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aker_(deity)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammit&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anubis&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apep&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apis_(deity)&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ash_(deity)&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banebdjedet&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastet&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bennu&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hathor&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatmehit&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedetet&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horus&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khepri&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafdet&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meretseger&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nekhbet&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sekhmet&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/sekhmet&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_(deity)&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sobek&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taweret&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unut&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Egyptian_deities&#xD;&#xA;  [27]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehit&#xD;&#xA;  [28]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menhit&#xD;&#xA;  [29]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apedemak&#xD;&#xA;  [30]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maahes&#xD;&#xA;  [31]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakhet&#xD;&#xA;  [32]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shesmetet&#xD;&#xA;  [33]: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/apis" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12651" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3161" RevisionGUID="504ba10f-dd7e-4066-9af2-6419e2c96dc7" CreationDate="2017-11-17T20:19:52.080" UserId="292" Text="Yannis on the rignt track: the Celts had a number of deities whose healing power combined a solar element with water: Grannus, [Sul][1], Brigit and [Borvo/Bormanus][2]. (The Brigit lore relates mainly to the saint, as a number of [healing wells][3] were sacred to her, and an [everlasting flame][4] was kept at her sanctuary in Kildare. But it's assumed that the lore is a continuation of earlier beliefs.)  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;The deity [Apam Napat][5], who appears in Zoroastrian texts and the Hindu Vedas, is another contender. Although he's the son of the waters, the Indian texts [associate him][6] with the fire-god Agni. One theory is that [he represents][7] fire in the water, a sort of stored fire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulis&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borvo&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://irelandsholywells.blogspot.ca/2014/01/saint-brigids-well-liscannor-county.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://sacredsitetour.com/kildare-and-brighid-sacredsites-ireland&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/apam-napat&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.apamnapat.com/entities/ApamNapat.html&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apam_Napat" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12652" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3156" RevisionGUID="e5725ef4-681e-4e36-8d9d-685931710d8b" CreationDate="2017-11-17T20:47:43.720" UserId="666" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|thor|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12658" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3148" RevisionGUID="9c7b1996-455d-4d8c-af04-3cf104fa2e5f" CreationDate="2017-11-19T20:26:08.383" UserId="4271" Comment="added 127 characters in body" Text="There are the big three: Hades, Poseidon, Zeus. Furthermore, the Fates, the Furies, the judges of the Underworld, the elder Cyclopes, the Hecatoncheires and the Oneiroi.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are also three rules of the universe: the [Primordials][1], the [Titans][2], and the [Olympians][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am writing a _book_ and **three** seems to be a theme in Greek Mythology. Any other groups of three would be helpful. for I wish there to be someplace one can view all triads of Greek Mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_primordial_deities&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Olympians" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12664" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3163" RevisionGUID="31880286-60d4-4260-b4c0-d11869dc2ed6" CreationDate="2017-11-19T22:40:06.083" UserId="4271" Text="Does the bible, specifically say a Christian can not marry someone who is not Christian?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12665" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3163" RevisionGUID="31880286-60d4-4260-b4c0-d11869dc2ed6" CreationDate="2017-11-19T22:40:06.083" UserId="4271" Text="Does the Christian bible forbid marriage out of Christianity?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12666" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3163" RevisionGUID="31880286-60d4-4260-b4c0-d11869dc2ed6" CreationDate="2017-11-19T22:40:06.083" UserId="4271" Text="|christianity|bible|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12670" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3164" RevisionGUID="cf25a757-bec5-43af-abdb-3d16009f3458" CreationDate="2017-11-20T00:59:22.240" UserDisplayName="user1079" Text="No Christian text in the bible forbids Christians from marrying non-Christians. (Some Christian 'old testament' texts do forbid or discourage Israelites from marrying non-Israelites.)&#xA;&#xA;Paul, in 1 Corinthians 7.12-16, addresses a circumstance in which a Christian is already married to a non-Christian: don't seek out a divorce, the Christian spouse uplifts his/her non-Christian family.&#xA;&#xA;However, Paul in 2 Corinthians 6.14 forbids becoming 'partners' with non-Christians, though it is a little unclear how far this extends (the immediate context is of not compromising Christian beliefs by mixing with non-Christian beliefs)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12672" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3165" RevisionGUID="2350befa-27a7-43ec-b1d0-95ce5a22556d" CreationDate="2017-11-22T11:22:43.883" UserId="534" Text="The Mayans had Hun Batz, the Chinese have the Monkey King, and the Hindus have Hanuman. With many monkey species in Africa, there should be many monkey gods over there." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12673" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3165" RevisionGUID="2350befa-27a7-43ec-b1d0-95ce5a22556d" CreationDate="2017-11-22T11:22:43.883" UserId="534" Text="Are there any monkey gods in Africa?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12674" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3165" RevisionGUID="2350befa-27a7-43ec-b1d0-95ce5a22556d" CreationDate="2017-11-22T11:22:43.883" UserId="534" Text="|myth-identification|africa|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12675" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3166" RevisionGUID="ebed5d2d-bff7-4002-b88f-d031a571b28d" CreationDate="2017-11-22T11:28:49.243" UserId="534" Text="The Hindus and Buddhists also worship Vishnu who has blue skin. Avatars like Rama and Krishna can also be considered separate gods." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12676" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3167" RevisionGUID="3b756341-7dc5-4bc4-b293-4c574edcb829" CreationDate="2017-11-22T16:59:56.237" UserId="4369" Text="I've been very perplexed over the confusing matter regarding Saturn and how he was viewed by the early latins.some say he was a just king who ruled the latins in a golden age, succeeding janus. &#xD;&#xA;Others claim Saturn was a god. &#xD;&#xA;Then who was Jupiter latiaris? What is the connection, if there exists at all between the very primitive acknowledgement of Jupiter being the supreme, and the cults of Saturn?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12677" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3167" RevisionGUID="3b756341-7dc5-4bc4-b293-4c574edcb829" CreationDate="2017-11-22T16:59:56.237" UserId="4369" Text="Was Saturn a person or god among the early latins?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12678" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3167" RevisionGUID="3b756341-7dc5-4bc4-b293-4c574edcb829" CreationDate="2017-11-22T16:59:56.237" UserId="4369" Text="|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12679" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3168" RevisionGUID="91cd711b-903c-4dd4-bfc0-3073058388f1" CreationDate="2017-11-22T21:24:47.917" UserId="534" Text="In ancient Rome, there was a divine trio known as the Archaic Triad. The members were Jupiter, Mars,and Quirinus. Saturn possibly derived from Satre, an Etruscan god mentioned on a bronze tablet called the Liver of Piacenza.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Others disagree, claiming Saturn was originally an ancient Etruscan king, whose reign was a Golden Age. The king's name was Saturnus." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12680" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3168" RevisionGUID="2ebcbbe1-1d40-4a69-8b37-c84ae23f9f85" CreationDate="2017-11-22T21:40:21.757" UserId="2892" Comment="Added links" Text="In ancient Rome, there was a divine trio known as the [Archaic Triad][1]. The members were Jupiter, Mars,and [Quirinus][2]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Saturn is possibly derived from [Satre][3], an Etruscan god mentioned on a bronze tablet called the [Liver of Piacenza][4].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Others disagree, claiming Saturn was originally an ancient Etruscan king, whose reign was a Golden Age. The king's name was Saturnus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitoline_Triad&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quirinus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satre_(Etruscan_god)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liver_of_Piacenza" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12681" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3165" RevisionGUID="dd9d86ea-02c3-4768-ab13-e78e6642a4f0" CreationDate="2017-11-22T21:44:17.597" UserId="2892" Comment="added 19 characters in body" Text="The Mayans had Hun Batz, the Chinese have the Monkey King, and the Hindus have Hanuman. Monkeys are also indigenous to Africa, so I'm assuming there are also simian gods from that region." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12682" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3169" RevisionGUID="55798d73-7d29-4069-a32c-fe0eeca42dad" CreationDate="2017-11-22T21:53:16.297" UserId="2892" Text="[Thoth][1] is a major god of Egypt who is sometimes depicted as a [dog-faced baboon][2]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The wiki mentions this is a form of Thoth known as A'an, God of Equilibrium.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can find a list of [African Monkey Gods][3] here. The references all come from [EA Wallis Budge’s Hieroglyphic Dictionary][4], which is dated 1920, so some of the scholarship may have been superseded by more recent research.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoth#Depictions&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoth#/media/File:Thoth-baboon-British-Museum.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://africancreationenergy.blogspot.com/2015/12/african-monkey-gods.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://archive.org/details/egyptianhierogly01budguoft" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12683" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3169" RevisionGUID="0c6b5c8b-b726-4674-b028-c26dba6e55d0" CreationDate="2017-11-22T22:02:44.393" UserId="2892" Comment="added 99 characters in body" Text="[Thoth][1] is a major god of Egypt who is sometimes depicted as a [dog-faced baboon][2]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The wiki mentions this is a form of Thoth known as A'an, God of Equilibrium.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can find a list of [African Monkey Gods][3] here. The references all come from [EA Wallis Budge’s Hieroglyphic Dictionary][4], which is dated 1920, so some of the scholarship may have been superseded by more recent research.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Budge also lists the &quot;Aanau&quot;, the four ape-gods who judged the dead (p.114 in the linked text.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoth#Depictions&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoth#/media/File:Thoth-baboon-British-Museum.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://africancreationenergy.blogspot.com/2015/12/african-monkey-gods.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://archive.org/details/egyptianhierogly01budguoft" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12684" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3170" RevisionGUID="37d10280-7d1b-4dfa-91f3-6e7c87093d1f" CreationDate="2017-11-22T23:28:31.283" UserId="2892" Text="Wiki states this is a form of Thoth, which is consistent with what I know about Thoth, although much of the information I'm working with comes through the hermeticism.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wiki citation for A'ani comes from Budge's [Hieroglyphic Dictionary][1], but the work dates from 1920, so I'm assuming there may be more recent scholarship.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://archive.org/details/egyptianhierogly01budguoft" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12685" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3170" RevisionGUID="37d10280-7d1b-4dfa-91f3-6e7c87093d1f" CreationDate="2017-11-22T23:28:31.283" UserId="2892" Text="What is known about A'ani, the ancient Egyptian God of Equilibrium" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12686" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3170" RevisionGUID="37d10280-7d1b-4dfa-91f3-6e7c87093d1f" CreationDate="2017-11-22T23:28:31.283" UserId="2892" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12687" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3160" RevisionGUID="f08104a0-a715-4618-b281-066ef9fb4f99" CreationDate="2017-11-22T23:37:50.613" UserId="2892" Comment="added two entries for Thoth with citations" Text="Animals representations are quite common in Egyptian mythology.  Here is a partial list of Ancient Egyptian deities with animal associations and attributes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Lion: [Aker][1]** &#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Pat Remler: *Egyptian Mythology, A to Z.* Infobase Publishing, 2010, ISBN 1438131801, pp. 4 &amp; 5.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Lion/Hippopotamus/Crocodile: [Ammit, the Soul Eater][2]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Hart, George (2005). *The Routledge Dictionary of Egyptian Gods and Goddesses, Second Edition.* Routledge.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Falcon: [Anti][3]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&quot;The Contendings of Horus and Seth&quot; in William Kelly Simpson (ed.), *The Literature of Ancient Egypt*, 1972&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**African Golden Wolf *(formerly Jackal)*: [Anubis][4]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Wilkinson, Toby A. H. (1999), *Early Dynastic Egypt.* Routledge.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Serpent: [Apophis][5]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;C.Wolterman, in *Jaarbericht van Ex Oriente Lux*, (2002)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Mighty Bull: [Apis][6]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt; Kahl, J. *&quot;Ra is My Lord&quot;: Searching for the Rise of the Sun God at the Dawn of Egyptian History*, 2007, p.59.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Lion/Vulture/Hawk/Snake: [Ash][7]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Hart, George, *The Routledge Dictionary of Egyptian Gods and Goddesses* (2nd ed.), 2005, London: Routledge&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Francoise Dunand, Christiane Zivie-Coche, *Gods and Men in Egypt: 3000 BCE to 395 CE*, Cornell University Press 2005, p.344&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Baboon: [Babi][8]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Hart, George (2005). *The Routledge Dictionary of Egyptian Gods and Goddesses, Second Edition.* Routledge.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ram: [Banebdjedet][9]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Handbook of Egyptian mythology, Geraldine Pinch, p 114-115, Oxford University Press, 2004&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Cat: [Bast][10]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Serpell, &quot;Domestication and History of the Cat&quot;, p. 184.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Grey Heron: [Bennu][11]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Wilkinson, Richard H., *The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt*, 2003. p. 212&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Cow: [Hathor][12]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;*Religion in ancient Egypt: gods, myths, and personal practice*, Byron Esely Shafer, John Baines, Leonard H. Lesko, David P. Silverman, p. 24 Fordham University, Taylor &amp; Francis, 1991&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Fish: [Hatmehit][13]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Wilkinson, Richard H., *The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt*, 2003. p.228–229&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Scorpion: [Hedetet][14]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Wilkinson, Richard H., *The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt*, 2003. p. 230&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Falcon: [Horus][15]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Wilkinson, Richard H., *The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt*, 2003. p. 202&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Scarab Beetle: [Khepri][16]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Hart, George (2005). *The Routledge Dictionary of Egyptian Gods and Goddesses*. Routledge. pp. 84–85&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Wily Mongoose: [Mafdet][17]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Wilkinson, Richard H., *The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt*, 2003. p. 196&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Cobra: [Meretseger][18]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;*&quot;Essays on ancient Egypt in honour of Herman te Velde&quot;*, Herman te Velde, Jacobus van Dijk, p71, Brill Publishers, 1997&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Vulture: [Nekhbet][19]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Bailleul-LeSuer, Rozenn (ed), *Between Heaven and Earth: Birds in Ancient Egypt.* The Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago. pp. 61–62, 138&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Lioness: [Sekhmet][20]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Oxford Living Dictionaries][21]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Aardvark/Donkey/Jackal/Fox(?): [Set][22]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;te Velde, Herman (1967). Seth, *God of Confusion: A Study of His Role in Egyptian Mythology and Religion*. Probleme der Ägyptologie 6. Translated by van Baaren-Pape, G. E. (2nd ed.). Leiden: E. J. Brill.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Crocodile: [Sobek][23]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Bresciani, Edda. *&quot;Sobek, Lord of the Land of the Lake&quot;*. In *Divine Creatures: Animal Mummies in Ancient Egypt*, edited by Salima Ikram, 199–206. Cairo: The American University in Cairo Press, 2005&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hippopotamus: [Taweret][24]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Jennifer Houser-Wegner, &quot;Taweret,&quot; in *The Ancient Gods Speak : A Guide to Egyptian Religion*, ed. Donald Redford (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2002), 351-352.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ibis: Thoth**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Budge, [*The Gods of the Egyptians* Vol. 1 p. 401][25]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Baboon: Thoth**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Budge, [*The Gods of the Egyptians* Vol. 1 p. 403][25]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hare: [Unut][26]**&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt; Erik Hornung, *Conceptions of God in Ancient Egypt: The One and the Many*, Cornell University Press 1996, p. 82&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_________________________________________________&#xD;&#xA;To help you with your research efforts, I'm including a note about how I went about compiling information for this answer.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I did a search for Egyptian gods and found a [Wikipedia page with an extensive list of Egyptian Deities][27]. (*The list may not be 100% complete, but should be sufficient for undergraduate work. IMPORTANT: Wikipedia on it's own is not generally considered acceptable as a source, but the better articles will include citations to scholarly sources, which are acceptable. Any information that does not carry a citation is considered unreliable and must be externally validated. For university-level work, you are expected read the cited source material, which may involve going to the library;*)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Using the master list, I checked each entry, checked for citations, then aggregated into a list of animal-deities. For the most part, I avoided repetition of animals. (There are numerous other instances of Egyptian gods represented as lions and lionesses, which relate to warfare, including [Mehit][28],&#xD;&#xA; [Menhit][29], [Apedemak][30], [Maahes son of Bast][31], [Pakhet][32] and [Sheshmetet][33].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The wiki for the well-known goddess Sekhmet has a distinct lack of citations, so I went to the Oxford Dictionaries.  For your purposes, this may be a suitable reference.  For instance, the entry on mighty [Apis][34]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aker_(deity)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammit&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anubis&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apep&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apis_(deity)&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ash_(deity)&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banebdjedet&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastet&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bennu&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hathor&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatmehit&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedetet&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horus&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khepri&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafdet&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meretseger&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nekhbet&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sekhmet&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/sekhmet&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_(deity)&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sobek&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taweret&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: https://archive.org/details/godsofegyptianso00budg&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unut&#xD;&#xA;  [27]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Egyptian_deities&#xD;&#xA;  [28]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehit&#xD;&#xA;  [29]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menhit&#xD;&#xA;  [30]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apedemak&#xD;&#xA;  [31]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maahes&#xD;&#xA;  [32]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakhet&#xD;&#xA;  [33]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shesmetet&#xD;&#xA;  [34]: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/apis" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12688" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3169" RevisionGUID="d28a600d-8323-4200-ab73-3102cb2180d3" CreationDate="2017-11-22T23:39:49.707" UserId="2892" Comment="added a link to the source material" Text="[Thoth][1] is a major god of Egypt who is sometimes depicted as a [dog-faced baboon][2]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a form of Thoth known as A'an, God of Equilibrium. (Budge, [*The Gods of the Egyptians* Vol. 1 p. 403][3])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can find a list of [African Monkey Gods][4] here. The references all come from [EA Wallis Budge’s Hieroglyphic Dictionary][5], which is dated 1920, so some of the scholarship may have been superseded by more recent research.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Budge also lists the &quot;Aanau&quot;, the four ape-gods who judged the dead (p.114 in the linked text.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoth#Depictions&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoth#/media/File:Thoth-baboon-British-Museum.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://archive.org/details/godsofegyptianso00budg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://africancreationenergy.blogspot.com/2015/12/african-monkey-gods.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://archive.org/details/egyptianhierogly01budguoft" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12689" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3171" RevisionGUID="34e81365-5f00-4025-96bc-8fb7c2452adc" CreationDate="2017-11-23T00:55:05.080" UserId="2892" Text="There is, of course, the famous interaction and reconciliation in Aeschylus' *[The Kindly Ones][1]* (part 3 of the [*Oresteia*][2]), but does it go deeper than that?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oresteia#The_Eumenides&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oresteia" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12690" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3171" RevisionGUID="34e81365-5f00-4025-96bc-8fb7c2452adc" CreationDate="2017-11-23T00:55:05.080" UserId="2892" Text="What is the nature of Athena's relationship to the Furies?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12691" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3171" RevisionGUID="34e81365-5f00-4025-96bc-8fb7c2452adc" CreationDate="2017-11-23T00:55:05.080" UserId="2892" Text="|greek|athena|furies|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12692" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3172" RevisionGUID="618ddcae-86ea-4d12-b943-cfd1e2c4279b" CreationDate="2017-11-23T00:56:49.253" UserId="2892" Text="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erinyes" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12693" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3172" RevisionGUID="618ddcae-86ea-4d12-b943-cfd1e2c4279b" CreationDate="2017-11-23T00:56:49.253" UserId="2892" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12694" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3173" RevisionGUID="f2370d43-5f38-4baa-9635-47b2681559bf" CreationDate="2017-11-23T00:56:49.253" UserId="2892" Text="Use for question relating to the Furies, aka the Erinyes, aka the Eumenides, aka the &quot;Kindly Ones&quot; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12695" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3173" RevisionGUID="f2370d43-5f38-4baa-9635-47b2681559bf" CreationDate="2017-11-23T00:56:49.253" UserId="2892" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12696" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3174" RevisionGUID="36c00c4b-5b98-41b5-a3da-2df9951be67b" CreationDate="2017-11-24T18:29:37.950" UserId="534" Text="[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/G7OxI.jpg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apep was the snake god who tried to eat or smother the sun. Ra rode a boat across the sky river. Apep would fight Ra while trying to swallow the sun which was on Ra's crown. Ra would scare Apep away with his staff, and Apep lived to fight another day." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12697" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3175" RevisionGUID="4942d58f-fc6e-4282-b948-53aee23e475b" CreationDate="2017-11-24T18:48:17.130" UserId="534" Text="The Fields of Reeds were a PERFECT version of mortal reed fields. Egyptians who went there were immune to hunger, fatigue, and the temperature. They lived in eternal happiness, while never being bored.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Besides, the alternative was nonexistence. Personally, I'd rather work forever         &#xD;&#xA;than stop existing." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12700" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2999" RevisionGUID="ba0d3958-655b-4b92-9091-a6b3d66f6c8e" CreationDate="2017-11-25T12:13:29.683" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="12701" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3167" RevisionGUID="2d3a9708-5377-408c-aa64-7652d77bfe11" CreationDate="2017-11-25T20:54:28.890" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved  spelling and grammar." Text="I've been very perplexed over the confusing matter regarding Saturn and how he was viewed by the early latins.some say he was a just king who ruled the Romnns in a golden age, succeeding Janus. Others claim Saturn was a god. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then who was Jupiter Latiaris? What is the connection, if there exists at all between the very primitive acknowledgement of Jupiter being the supreme, and the cults of Saturn?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12702" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3167" RevisionGUID="2d3a9708-5377-408c-aa64-7652d77bfe11" CreationDate="2017-11-25T20:54:28.890" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved  spelling and grammar." Text="Was Saturn a person or god among the early Romans?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12703" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2536" RevisionGUID="75965ab8-e63e-4ba6-b1fd-b8402e2f01aa" CreationDate="2017-11-25T21:40:43.510" UserId="2892" Comment="Also removed Kronos based on the OP's feedback" Text="This answer will be evolving as I add to the list, but first I'll start with the most striking example:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **Artemis**: A primal form of Artemis, [the Lady of Ephesus][1], was a mother goddess believed to be related to [Cybele][2]. Under the Olympian hegemony, Artemis may be said to have transformed from a &quot;Great Goddess&quot; with unrestrained power to the virgin daughter of the king of the gods.  (This may be a reflection of the curtailing of the power of [Gaia][3] by casting down her offspring in the [Titanomachy][4] and [Gigantomachy][5], and extends to all Olympian goddesses, with some small exception for Aphrodite in still having power over Zeus per his licentiousness.)   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [**Cybele**][2] can certainly be regarded as having lost stature in that her original form was a &quot;Great Mother Goddess&quot;, surely a central figure, but on incorporation into the Greek Pantheon, she became more of a peripheral figure--still respected but not central.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of loss of status, also worth looking at:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **[The Erinyes][9]**: The [Orestia of Aeschylus][10] is a recounting of the pacification of the Erinyes in service of the advancement of civilization.  Nevertheless, their transformation to the Eumenides is demotion both in terms of status and power, in that their ancient domain and prerogatives are stripped from them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Solsdottir wrote a great article on them: *[The Avenging Furies][11]*.  I think there's a case to be made that their stature is diminished in the Greek conception when you compare [Hesiod's description][12] to [Aeschylus' description][13]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Myceneans (a pre-Greek civilization) saw Erinus (singular) as a goddess, listing her along with Atana Potnija (Athena), Eluthia (Eileithyia), Paiawon (Apollo), and the Mistress of the Labyrinth, Potnija Dapurito. Tablets in the Linear B language list her alongside the others without making any distinction, and one records offerings of oil to all of them.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: *[The Avenging Furies][11]*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that in the Mycenean conception, Erinus had equal status with a proto-Athena and proto-Apollo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemis#Artemis_as_the_Lady_of_Ephesus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybele&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanomachy&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giants_(Greek_mythology)#The_Gigantomachy&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thetis#Marriage_to_Peleus&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metis_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erinyes&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oresteia&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://earthandstarryheaven.com/2017/11/22/furies/&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D173&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0006%3Acard%3D34" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12704" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3176" RevisionGUID="7607d9ac-02ca-44c3-99ed-5c0bd0fa8642" CreationDate="2017-11-26T04:39:22.057" UserId="4375" Text="Additionally, do we know why they were said to be beneficial/detrimental? I think I remember a myth about some culture believing that eating your enemy's heart would give you their strength, but I'm not sure where I remember this from." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12705" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3176" RevisionGUID="7607d9ac-02ca-44c3-99ed-5c0bd0fa8642" CreationDate="2017-11-26T04:39:22.057" UserId="4375" Text="Are there any ancient myths about human body parts said to be benefical or detrimental when eaten?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12706" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3176" RevisionGUID="7607d9ac-02ca-44c3-99ed-5c0bd0fa8642" CreationDate="2017-11-26T04:39:22.057" UserId="4375" Text="|magic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12707" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3176" RevisionGUID="b149b2d2-852a-47f1-8ff2-92927441b8ad" CreationDate="2017-11-26T04:53:14.087" UserId="4375" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body" Text="Additionally, do we know why they were said to be beneficial/detrimental? I think I remember a myth in some culture believing that eating your enemy's heart would give you their strength, but I'm not sure where I remember this from." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12708" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3177" RevisionGUID="9ae6fc11-e946-49a6-8ff4-da60f48fb7d6" CreationDate="2017-11-26T15:13:30.007" UserId="4377" Text="For instance, according to the supernatural wiki, [silver is a metal with strong supernatural properties](http://supernatural.wikia.com/wiki/Silver). But historically, why is specifically silver considered harmful to vampires? Is there a reason why it could not be gold or bronze?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12709" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3177" RevisionGUID="9ae6fc11-e946-49a6-8ff4-da60f48fb7d6" CreationDate="2017-11-26T15:13:30.007" UserId="4377" Text="Why is silver in particular effective against dark creatures like vampires?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12710" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3177" RevisionGUID="9ae6fc11-e946-49a6-8ff4-da60f48fb7d6" CreationDate="2017-11-26T15:13:30.007" UserId="4377" Text="|vampires|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12711" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3176" RevisionGUID="0744f7f8-4744-4b01-8166-7897896ba05c" CreationDate="2017-11-26T20:37:37.610" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|magic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12712" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="3163" RevisionGUID="28c0a99e-9151-42bc-ae2a-91025e190e9e" CreationDate="2017-11-27T10:14:21.520" UserId="-1" Comment="102" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:201,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Lauren Ipsum&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:292,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;solsdottir&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:2892,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;DukeZhou&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:666,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;andejons&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="12714" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3178" RevisionGUID="72543dc7-f01b-43bd-bfef-ee8cad85bbd7" CreationDate="2017-11-27T13:18:10.633" UserId="108" Text="You're thinking about the [Iroquois](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroquois). There is a widespread belief, first started by missionaries to illustrate the savagery of the natives, that the Iroquois would torture and eat the hearts of their captives. As the stories go, Iroquois braves torture prisoners to see who can endure for a long time without fear, and then eat their hearts in order to inherit their victim's courage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is, in fact, no evidence for any of this&lt;sup&gt;**[1]**&lt;/sup&gt;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there *are* many genuine myths about eating body parts. In general, it is believed that some kind of essence or property could be transferred via consumption. For instance, in Chinese mythology, [Hsuan-tsang](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xuanzang_(Journey_to_the_West)) was hunted by monsters on his way to the West because eating his flesh is thought to grant immortality. The reason in this case was because the monk was the reincarnation of a sanctified soul.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another common effect is that eating the heart of someone allowed their essence to be reborn. Examples include several variants of [Dionysus's birth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus). In one, Zeus was said to have eaten the heart of [Zagreus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreus), the &quot;first Dionysus&quot;, and thus impregnated the second incarnation in [Semele](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semele#Impregnation_by_Zeus). Likewise, in Norse mythology [Loki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki) is said to have created all the female monsters of the world because he &quot;once became pregnant by eating the half-burnt-heart of a woman&quot;&lt;sup&gt;**[2]**&lt;/sup&gt;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More generally, many cultures attributes specific properties to different body parts. The eating of these parts thus strengthens the associated properties. Eating the heart for courage; another is eating sexual organs for virility. This is also true beyond cannibalism. Norse myths offers several examples of eating the hearts of animals, such as when [Bödvar Bjarki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%B6dvar_Bjarki) had Hott eat a heart to gain bravery. Chinese folk medicine to this day includes eating dried deer penises for virility.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;**[1]** Arens, William. *The Man-Eating Myth: Anthropology and Anthropophagy: Anthropology and Anthropophagy.* Oxford University Press, USA, 1979.&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;**[2]** Auerbach, Loren, and Jacqueline Simpson. *Sagas of the Norsemen: Viking and German Myth.* ‎Duncan Baird, 1997.&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12715" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3179" RevisionGUID="24fc562e-9e12-43ce-87a2-82de6d4fc289" CreationDate="2017-11-28T01:21:10.833" UserId="4383" Text="Besides the story in which Zeus turned Apollo and Poseidon into mortals once, there are more examples of gods losing their immortality in other mythologies as well?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12716" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3179" RevisionGUID="24fc562e-9e12-43ce-87a2-82de6d4fc289" CreationDate="2017-11-28T01:21:10.833" UserId="4383" Text="There are stories on which a god turned a mortal? Or just lost immortality" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12717" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3179" RevisionGUID="24fc562e-9e12-43ce-87a2-82de6d4fc289" CreationDate="2017-11-28T01:21:10.833" UserId="4383" Text="|magic|immortality|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12718" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3180" RevisionGUID="3b5cd267-b032-400c-b146-98d285c1ab94" CreationDate="2017-11-28T10:14:37.897" UserId="4390" Text="First I'll get this out of the way:  No research is truly comprehensive without [TVTropes][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The myth of silver's mystical properties goes deep into human history. As a noble metal akin to gold, this is often attributed to something along the lines of silver's Incorruptible Pure Pureness. In fact, it's because of something people noticed a very long time ago: if you put water in a silver pitcher, it takes a lot longer for it to get unhealthily scummy. Silver has antimicrobial properties that make it quite useful in medicine. In ancient and medieval alchemy silver was also the metal with an affinity corresponding to the moon, so many of the mystical properties of the moon also became associated with the metal . . . Unlike in post-Medieval works, many pre-Christian pagan mythologies also associated it with the Sun, and many solar deities are described with silver objects (like Saule's silver thread, Apollo's silver bow and arrows or Amaterasu's silver mirror). Though ancient alchemists couldn't know it, silver does have a unique property among the elements — it exists in a naturally excited form — i.e. it has a single electron that exists in a higher energy level, leaving a gap in the shell immediately &quot;below&quot; it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(I assume &quot;unique among the elements&quot; means rather &quot;unique as an element that exists in amounts and malleability to the extent that humans can fashion discrete and widely-distributed objects with it&quot; - however, I am not even an armchair chemist.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As DukeZhou's comment indicates, The Strain develops a [&quot;hard sci-fi&quot; angle][2] to explain the connection in the case of a 'vampire species':&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While silver poses low toxicity and risk to humans, certain bacteria and possibly fungi may be genetically susceptible to silver interfering with their enzyme production. A similar biological reaction to silver may be supernaturally present in strigoi. Regardless of the debated status on the medical effectiveness of silver, the retention of silver in the body associated with chronic intake of colloidal silver would prove disagreeable to vampires. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(If I could participate in Meta yet I would have checked to see how (un)acceptable it is to include a 'retcon' on this level, i.e. 21st century fiction employing/explaining folklore.  However, since there were apparently still Romanians flouting a law banning a ritual designed for vampire prevention [in 2004][3] ...)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You also ask&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Is there a reason why it could not be gold or bronze?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;which carries a whiff of roleplaying/worldbuilding/writers about it, but let that pass; and leaving aside just how much &quot;[a] reason&quot; could play into mythology:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Significance in Egyptian hieroglyphics][4]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One of the older uses of the gold hieroglyph . . . typically featured the image of a Horus falcon perched above or beside the hieroglyph for gold.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The meaning of this particular title has been disputed. One belief is that it represents the triumph of Horus over his uncle Seth, as the symbol for gold can be taken to mean that Horus was &quot;superior to his foes&quot;. Gold also was **strongly associated** in the ancient Egyptian mind **with eternity**, so this may have been intended to convey the pharaoh's eternal Horus name.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is easily translates to &quot;eternal and/or divine aspect = proof against undead&quot; ... pretty speculative though.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the Wikipedia entry, regarding [culture][5] and [medicine][6]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In some forms of Christianity and Judaism, gold has been associated both with holiness and evil. In the Book of Exodus, the Golden Calf is a symbol of idolatry, while in the Book of Genesis, Abraham was said to be rich in gold and silver, and Moses was instructed to cover the Mercy Seat of the Ark of the Covenant with pure gold. In Byzantine iconography the halos of Christ, Mary and the Christian saints are often golden.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps this ambivalence accounts for gold not being considered exclusively holy or unholy - associations with idolatry or greed vs. use with relics.  But in the tales where a crucifix or other holy symbol may be used to ward off a vampire, there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with that device being golden.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Metallic and gold compounds have long been used for medicinal purposes. Gold, usually as the metal, is perhaps the most anciently administered medicine (apparently by shamanic practitioners) and known to Dioscorides.  In medieval times, gold was often seen as **beneficial for the health**, in the belief that something so rare and beautiful could not be anything but healthy. Even some modern esotericists and forms of alternative medicine assign metallic gold a healing power.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In the 19th century gold had a reputation as a &quot;nervine&quot;, a therapy for nervous disorders. Depression, epilepsy, migraine, and glandular problems such as amenorrhea and impotence were treated, and most notably alcoholism (Keeley, 1897).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As to 'why not bronze', well ... the mystical properties of bronze just wasn't ever 'a thing', as far as I can tell.  All I see so far is references to copper associated with Venus and tin associated with Jupiter, but no substantive suggestions regarding the alloy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So ... nothing much so far; looking forward to seeing what everyone else digs up!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SilverHasMysticPowers&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://the-strain.wikia.com/wiki/Science_of_The_Strain#Silver&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strigoi#Today&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_(hieroglyph)#Horus-of-Gold_name&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold#Culture&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold#Medicine" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12719" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2915" RevisionGUID="a664cd93-83d9-43a0-9773-8192e75e8da5" CreationDate="2017-11-28T10:35:35.800" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="12720" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3179" RevisionGUID="0f9d7536-9f91-4d1c-9b0f-a25bba502e36" CreationDate="2017-11-28T18:20:06.887" UserId="4383" Comment="added 29 characters in body" Text="Besides the story in which Zeus turned Apollo and Poseidon into mortals once, there are more examples of gods losing their immortality in other mythologies as well? Not only in Greek Mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12721" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3181" RevisionGUID="74682dd0-5cfb-460e-8ac5-9b4568af20e0" CreationDate="2017-11-28T18:46:16.817" UserId="197" Text="The stories of ancient Greek mythology mention many cases when mortal men use treasure forged by gods, usually by Hēphaistos.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most famous example might be the armor of Achilleus, which Odysseus has won after Achilleus's death.  Another example is the golden bridle Bellerophon got from Athēnē to tame Pēgasos, although it's not quite clear who made that bridle.  But it is not these artifacts used for big heroic feats that seem so strange to me, but the ordinary household objects in rich kings' houses.  The example that has made the most impression on me is in the Odyssey chapter 4, when Menelaos gives a vessel forged by Hēphaistos as a present to Tēlemachos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With all that divine made treasure, I find it strange that I've never heard of any famous mortal smiths in Greek mythology.  If arts and crafts is so important when a god does it, than why do the myths never remember the mortal men who do the same? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This hole seems especially jarring in contrast to other mythologies, which tell about the Sampo that Ilmarinen has made, and the Silmarils, the jewels that Fëanor has made.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So here's my question.  **Is there a famous mortal smith in Greek mythology of whom we know the name**, and something about what objects he has made?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12722" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3181" RevisionGUID="74682dd0-5cfb-460e-8ac5-9b4568af20e0" CreationDate="2017-11-28T18:46:16.817" UserId="197" Text="What treasure was made by famous mortal men, who we know by name, in Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12723" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3181" RevisionGUID="74682dd0-5cfb-460e-8ac5-9b4568af20e0" CreationDate="2017-11-28T18:46:16.817" UserId="197" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12724" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3179" RevisionGUID="a1817af4-4f72-4b9c-95ac-fda1c7be52fc" CreationDate="2017-11-28T20:35:06.077" UserId="108" Comment="edited body; edited title" Text="Besides the story in which Zeus turned Apollo and Poseidon into mortals once, are there more examples of gods losing their immortality in other mythologies as well? Not only in Greek Mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12725" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3179" RevisionGUID="a1817af4-4f72-4b9c-95ac-fda1c7be52fc" CreationDate="2017-11-28T20:35:06.077" UserId="108" Comment="edited body; edited title" Text="Are stories on gods turning into mortals, or losing immortality?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12727" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3181" RevisionGUID="6dc9a487-4617-4d12-b2fd-cc648d23e484" CreationDate="2017-11-29T09:57:45.347" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|objects|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12728" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3182" RevisionGUID="76490231-27d3-4bad-9239-f02ed791772a" CreationDate="2017-11-29T10:02:06.540" UserId="108" Text="Perhaps the best example is the [Golden Fleece](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Fleece), a treasure in every sense of the word. It was created when [Phrixus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrixus) sacrificed a winged ram his mother [Nephele](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephele) sent to carry him to safety. The lamb was fathered by [Poseidon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poseidon) when he turned [Theophane](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophane) into an ewe, so divine influences played a role in sourcing the material. But credit for the actual creation surely belongs to Phrixus, even if it was just skinning a ram.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another example, though not really much of a treasure, is the sevenfold Shield of Ajax. It was said to be crafted by Tychius of Hyle, who was famed as the best leatherworker of the time. According to the *Iliad*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ajax came up bearing his shield in front of him like a wall - a shield of bronze with seven folds of oxhide - the work of Tychius, who lived in Hyle and was by far the best worker in leather.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source: http://www.literaturepage.com/read.php?titleid=theiliad&amp;abspage=98&amp;bookmark=1&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lastly, another possible example is the ship [Argo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argo), used by [Jason](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason) and [Argonauts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argonauts). It was built by [Argus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argus_(son_of_Arestor)), after whom the ship was named. However Athena is often said to have played a role in its creation, so this is only a marginal case." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12730" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3183" RevisionGUID="5d4da573-2f15-4e60-becb-b57e127aa4af" CreationDate="2017-11-29T15:28:16.110" UserId="292" Text="Athena has similarities to the Furies, and they both go back to pre-Classical, Mycenean religion. I'm not sure there's a direct connection between them.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;Athena is also a virgin deity, born of a mother alone (depending on who you ask), associated with snakes and the underworld (her son through Hephestios is [Erikhthonios][1], who was a snake from the waist down), administers justice and is connected with the darker female powers through the Gorgon on her breast. (Her mother, Metis, gives her another link to the pre-Zeus female powers.) One of Athena's titles was [axiopoinos][2], the avenger. The Furies also were worshipped in Athens, with [a temple][3] on the Hill of Ares.&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;The names Atana Potnija and Erinus (Fury,singular) appear in [deity lists][4] from Knossos, suggesting that both their cults are old ones,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/AthenaMyths.html#Erikhthonios&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.ca/books?id=FpBqBQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT246&amp;lpg=PT246&amp;dq=axiopoinos%20Athena&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=yI8muTkrFa&amp;sig=FlyqcnKKIp-0l1KHhUbQ7aco5_w&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiD-OfeiuTXAhVhhOAKHfdzBZ8Q6AEIRTAF#v=onepage&amp;q=axiopoinos%20Athena&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0160%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D28%3Asection%3D6&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.worldhistory.biz/ancient-history/57606-the-deities-linear-b.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12731" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3184" RevisionGUID="4de89bc8-35b9-4186-8e29-bcb274f3474a" CreationDate="2017-11-29T16:33:32.103" UserId="4391" Text="I know of no metal-smiths that have been mentioned in Greek myth - that aren't gods anyway - but there are craftspeople who have been remembered.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Semaphore mentioned Phrixus, Tychius and Argus. I'd throw in Arachne as well, whose weaving was so excellent, she competed against Athene and no winner was declared. She was turned into the first spider eventually." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12732" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2885" RevisionGUID="22245960-2f31-4ed5-99ec-b427b1205e4a" CreationDate="2017-11-29T19:25:48.070" UserId="292" Comment="deleted 14 characters in body" Text="In the *[Illiad][1]*, Hera rebels against Zeus, and gets the other gods to bind him to his throne after she drugs him:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;You [Thetis] said you only among the immortals beat aside shameful&#xD;&#xA;&gt; destruction from Kronos' son [Zeus] the dark-misted, that time when&#xD;&#xA;&gt; all the other Olympian gods sought to bind him, Hera and Poseidon and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pallas Athene. Then you, goddess, went and set him free from his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shackles, summoning in speed the creature of the hundred hands to tall&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Olympos, that creature the gods name Briareos, but all men Aigaios'&#xD;&#xA;&gt; son, but he is far greater in strength than his father. He rejoicing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in the glory of it sat down by Kronion, and the rest of the blessed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gods were frightened and gave up binding him.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;I found this on Theoi.com, which also quotes the *Argonautica* on how Zeus hung his wife in the sky by her hair, with anvils attached to her feet, as punishment.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/HeraMyths.html#Binding" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12733" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3185" RevisionGUID="612120bd-1032-464c-8567-f9229dc7d1e5" CreationDate="2017-11-29T20:09:05.453" UserId="4409" Text="I am interested in the life of Apollonius of Tyana, but the account by Philostratus seems a little late. Are there any other accounts of Apollonius outside Philostratus, either before him, or independent of him?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12734" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3185" RevisionGUID="612120bd-1032-464c-8567-f9229dc7d1e5" CreationDate="2017-11-29T20:09:05.453" UserId="4409" Text="Are there any pre-Philostratus accounts of Apollonius of Tyana?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12735" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3185" RevisionGUID="612120bd-1032-464c-8567-f9229dc7d1e5" CreationDate="2017-11-29T20:09:05.453" UserId="4409" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12736" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3186" RevisionGUID="1d77ca66-2c6a-44c4-87d0-94602219e97c" CreationDate="2017-11-29T22:05:37.520" UserId="2892" Text="This answer relates to the secondary question, regarding inventors and craftsmen specifically, as opposed to the forging of miraculous weapons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pliny the Elder devotes an entire chapter of *Naturalis Historia* (The Natural History) to the inventors of things.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The inventions are too numerous to list here, but Daedalus is credited with the invention of the axe, although in the context of carpentry.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However you may find this passage to be of interest:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The first battles were fought by the Africans against the Egyptians, with clubs, which they are in the habit of calling phalange. Prœtus and Acrisius were the first to use shields, in their contests with each other; or, as some say, Chalcus, the son of Athamas. Midias, the Messenian, invented the coat of mail, and the Lacedæmonians the helmet, the sword, and the spear. Greaves and crests were first used by the Carians; Scythes, the son of Jupiter, it is said, invented the bow and arrows, though some say that arrows were invented by Perses, the son of Perseus. Lances were invented by the Ætolians; the javelin, with the thong attached, by Ætolus, the son of Mars; the spear of the light infantry by Tyrrhenus; the dart by Penthesilea, the Amazon; the axe by Pisæus; the hunting-spear, and the scorpion to hurl missiles, by the Cretans; the catapulta, the balista, and the sling, by the Syrophœnicians. Pisæus, the Tyrrhenian, was the first to invent the brazen trumpet, and Artemon, of Clazomenæ, the use of the testudo. The battering-horse, for the destruction of walls, which is at the present day styled the &quot;ram,&quot; was invented by Epeus, at Troy. Bellerophon was the first who mounted the horse; bridles and saddles for the horse were invented by Pelethronius. The Thessalians, who are called. Centauri, and who dwell along Mount Pelion, were the first to fight on horse—Back. The people of Phrygia were the first who used chariots with two horses; Erichthonius first used four. Palamedes, during the Trojan war, was the first who marshalled an army, and invented watchwords, signals, and the use of sentinels. Sinon, at the same period, invented the art of correspondence by signals. Lycaon was the first to think of making a truce, and Theseus a treaty of alliance.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Pliny the Elder, [*The Natural History*, 7.57][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, while the weapons listed are not magical, we have:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Midias Midias, the Messenian: Chainmail&#xD;&#xA;- Scythes, son of Jupiter: Bow &amp; Arrow&#xD;&#xA;- Perses, son of Perseus: Arrows (alternate)&#xD;&#xA;- Ætolus, son of Mars: Javelin w/ Strap&#xD;&#xA;- Tyrrhenus: Light Infantry Spear&#xD;&#xA;- Penthesilea the Amazon: Dart&#xD;&#xA;- Pisæus: War Axe&#xD;&#xA;- Epeus, son of Panopeus: Battering Ram (at Troy)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137%3Abook%3D7%3Achapter%3D57" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12737" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3186" RevisionGUID="682252e9-9f07-4fd4-ae5a-c35c069c95b6" CreationDate="2017-11-29T22:11:40.247" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 11 characters in body" Text="This answer relates to the secondary question, regarding inventors and craftsmen specifically, as opposed to the forging of miraculous weapons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pliny the Elder devotes an entire chapter of *Naturalis Historia* (The Natural History) to the inventors of things.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The inventions are too numerous to list here. Daedalus is credited with the invention of the axe, although in the context of carpentry.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However you may find this passage to be of interest:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The first battles were fought by the Africans against the Egyptians, with clubs, which they are in the habit of calling phalange. Prœtus and Acrisius were the first to use shields, in their contests with each other; or, as some say, Chalcus, the son of Athamas. Midias, the Messenian, invented the coat of mail, and the Lacedæmonians the helmet, the sword, and the spear. Greaves and crests were first used by the Carians; Scythes, the son of Jupiter, it is said, invented the bow and arrows, though some say that arrows were invented by Perses, the son of Perseus. Lances were invented by the Ætolians; the javelin, with the thong attached, by Ætolus, the son of Mars; the spear of the light infantry by Tyrrhenus; the dart by Penthesilea, the Amazon; the axe by Pisæus; the hunting-spear, and the scorpion to hurl missiles, by the Cretans; the catapulta, the balista, and the sling, by the Syrophœnicians. Pisæus, the Tyrrhenian, was the first to invent the brazen trumpet, and Artemon, of Clazomenæ, the use of the testudo. The battering-horse, for the destruction of walls, which is at the present day styled the &quot;ram,&quot; was invented by Epeus, at Troy. Bellerophon was the first who mounted the horse; bridles and saddles for the horse were invented by Pelethronius. The Thessalians, who are called. Centauri, and who dwell along Mount Pelion, were the first to fight on horse—Back. The people of Phrygia were the first who used chariots with two horses; Erichthonius first used four. Palamedes, during the Trojan war, was the first who marshalled an army, and invented watchwords, signals, and the use of sentinels. Sinon, at the same period, invented the art of correspondence by signals. Lycaon was the first to think of making a truce, and Theseus a treaty of alliance.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Pliny the Elder, [*The Natural History*, 7.57][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, while the weapons listed are not magical, we have:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Midias, the Messenian: Chainmail&#xD;&#xA;- Scythes, son of Jupiter: Bow &amp; Arrow&#xD;&#xA;- Perses, son of Perseus: Arrows (alternate)&#xD;&#xA;- Ætolus, son of Mars: Javelin w/ Strap&#xD;&#xA;- Tyrrhenus: Light Infantry Spear&#xD;&#xA;- Penthesilea the Amazon: Dart&#xD;&#xA;- Pisæus: War Axe&#xD;&#xA;- Epeus, son of Panopeus: Battering Ram (at Troy)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137%3Abook%3D7%3Achapter%3D57" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12738" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3187" RevisionGUID="1e2624b9-9350-456a-9e9f-f3bd0c4a35d9" CreationDate="2017-11-30T01:33:13.813" UserId="4271" Text="I have constantly heard that every mythology has its own version to explain why the ocean rose after the last ice age ended(roughly 10,000 years ago). But, I have only heard the christian version with Noah, and the Greek version." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12739" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3187" RevisionGUID="1e2624b9-9350-456a-9e9f-f3bd0c4a35d9" CreationDate="2017-11-30T01:33:13.813" UserId="4271" Text="What is the Norse equivalent to the Great Flood?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12740" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3187" RevisionGUID="1e2624b9-9350-456a-9e9f-f3bd0c4a35d9" CreationDate="2017-11-30T01:33:13.813" UserId="4271" Text="|norse|myth-identification|comparative|mythohistory|flood-myth|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12741" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3185" RevisionGUID="574a5852-f7df-45a1-8841-7ec3cdd2ab6b" CreationDate="2017-11-30T01:45:26.083" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|source-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12742" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3188" RevisionGUID="e72f00a7-d670-432d-9629-c84554635deb" CreationDate="2017-11-30T03:38:14.570" UserId="108" Text="The Norse flood myth is actually a flood of blood, created when Odin, [Vili and Vé](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vili_and_V%C3%A9) slew [Ymir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ymir), the primeval ancestor of the [jötnar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6tunn). From Snorri's [*Prose Edda*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prose_Edda):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The sons of Bor slew the giant Ymer, but when he fell, there flowed so much blood from his wounds that they drowned therein the whole race of frost-giants; excepting one, who escaped with his household. Him the giants call Bergelmer. He and his wife went on board his ark and saved themselves in it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The resemblance to the biblical flood myth is apparent, apart from Norse Noah being a frost giant and the whole blood thing. Though Norse mythology also says that the world is fashioned from Ymir's body, with his blood being used to create the oceans." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12744" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3182" RevisionGUID="cfef0c09-9d1c-42d7-91cc-40216e1ec271" CreationDate="2017-11-30T06:06:12.557" UserId="108" Comment="added 6 characters in body" Text="Perhaps the best example is the [Golden Fleece](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Fleece), a treasure in every sense of the word. It was created when [Phrixus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrixus) sacrificed a winged ram his mother [Nephele](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephele) sent to carry him to safety. The lamb was fathered by [Poseidon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poseidon) when he turned [Theophane](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophane) into an ewe, so divine influences played a role in sourcing the material. But credit for the actual creation surely belongs to Phrixus, even if it was just skinning a ram.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another example, though not really much of a treasure, is the sevenfold Shield of Ajax. It was said to be crafted by Tychius of Hyle, who was famed as the best leatherworker of the time. According to the *Iliad* 7.206:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ajax came up bearing his shield in front of him like a wall - a shield of bronze with seven folds of oxhide - the work of Tychius, who lived in Hyle and was by far the best worker in leather.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source: http://www.literaturepage.com/read.php?titleid=theiliad&amp;abspage=98&amp;bookmark=1&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lastly, another possible example is the ship [Argo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argo), used by [Jason](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason) and [Argonauts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argonauts). It was built by [Argus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argus_(son_of_Arestor)), after whom the ship was named. However Athena is often said to have played a role in its creation, so this is only a marginal case." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12745" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3179" RevisionGUID="70fc6706-57c7-4761-857d-1b0b2b3e7338" CreationDate="2017-11-30T14:18:51.793" UserId="108" Comment="edited title" Text="Are there stories on gods turning into mortals, or losing immortality?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12748" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3189" RevisionGUID="d0c880f8-cbac-4aa1-8cd1-c24c2a494098" CreationDate="2017-12-01T19:42:36.870" UserId="4271" Text="Here is another time Apollo was made mortal. After Zeus found out Apollo possessed the full gift of prophesy, he asked him which woman would give birth to the kid that would over throw him as king. Apollo backed away and said, &quot;No can tell pops.&quot; Zeus got so angry, he was made mortal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The next time Apollo was made mortal, Asclepius(as a demigod)brought back a dead person for Artemis. Hades complained, Zeus killed him. Apollo got mad, he killed the elder cyclops. Zeus got mad and was going to throw him into Tartarus, but made him mortal and brought back Asclepius as a god for a compromise." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12761" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3192" RevisionGUID="d4a793cd-e7f0-43ab-b5fc-475cf337dba0" CreationDate="2017-12-05T20:34:25.260" UserId="4505" Text="Orcus is a Roman-specific deity. He's the god of Demonic Torment of damned souls. If he was Greek, he'd have worked in the Fields of Punishment." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12768" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3194" RevisionGUID="0b4e75b9-551e-43f3-b65d-871fe83a4d1e" CreationDate="2017-12-07T03:23:51.257" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Libulan is a moon God of the Visayan pantheon. His story is roughly something like this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Kaptan is said to be the father of Lihangin, the god of the wind, while Magwayen sired the goddess of the sea, Lidagat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;With the permission of their fathers, Lidagat and Lihangin got married and raised four kids: the strong Licalibutan who had a body made of rock; the always-happy Liadlaw (god of sun) who was covered with gold; the shy and weak Libulan (god of moon) who was made of copper; and the only daughter, Lisuga (god of stars), whose silver body always sparkled.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;For a time, the family seemed to be happy and had no issues at all. However, everything changed when Lihangin and Lidagat died. Their eldest son, Licalibutan, became the victim of his own greed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;One day, he planned a surprise attack against the skyworld to hopefully seize its control from the supreme god Kaptan, his grandfather. Joining him were Liadlaw and Libulan who were too afraid of him to even think of backing out. Together, they went to the skyworld and blew up the gates protecting the kingdom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;When Kaptan learned about the attack, he was enraged. The skygod sent three lightning bolts to his grandsons, which all melted instantly. Both Liadlaw and Libulan were reduced into a ball, while Licalibutan‘s rock-hard body broke into pieces, fell into the sea, and became what is known as land.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Lisuga, unaware of what was happening, also went to the skyworld to visit his grandfather. Kaptan, too blinded by his anger, struck the innocent Lisuga with lightning as well, breaking her into thousand pieces.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;When he and Magwayen finally met, things started to sink in for Kaptan. He lost all his grandchildren, including the beautiful Lisuga who had nothing to do with the conspiracy at all.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The grief-stricken Kaptan, upon realizing *he could no longer revive the four deities* , decided to just provide their remains with an everlasting light. Hence, Liadlaw became the sun, Libulan became the moon, and Lisuga became what we know today as the stars.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;source:https://www.google.com.sg/amp/www.filipiknow.net/the-ancient-visayan-deities-of-philippine-mythology/amp/&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, it is said that Malandok, the god of war, fell on love with him and that in the war that Sidapa, the god of death, and Malandok fought(to win Libulan), Sidapa won. How is that possible if Libulan was already dead? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12769" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3194" RevisionGUID="0b4e75b9-551e-43f3-b65d-871fe83a4d1e" CreationDate="2017-12-07T03:23:51.257" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="Is Libulan alive?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12770" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3194" RevisionGUID="0b4e75b9-551e-43f3-b65d-871fe83a4d1e" CreationDate="2017-12-07T03:23:51.257" UserDisplayName="user1385" Text="|resurrection|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12771" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3194" RevisionGUID="f870e61f-3bea-4dbc-901a-d821dcf8dfbf" CreationDate="2017-12-07T07:00:06.003" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="|resurrection|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12772" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3194" RevisionGUID="f870e61f-3bea-4dbc-901a-d821dcf8dfbf" CreationDate="2017-12-07T07:00:06.003" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="Was the moon god Libulan resurrected?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12774" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3192" RevisionGUID="8eaed107-762b-4f7c-87d0-ceb47f002896" CreationDate="2017-12-07T19:59:31.057" UserId="2892" Comment="added link" Text="[Orcus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orcus) is a Roman-specific deity. He's the god of Demonic Torment of damned souls. If he was Greek, he'd have worked in the Fields of Punishment." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12780" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3195" RevisionGUID="e1e47d56-8128-4f20-99c5-74b0f4455a83" CreationDate="2017-12-08T14:47:26.077" UserId="4522" Text="In greek mythologies, there is a lot of human-animal hybrid creatures (Satyr, Centaur or Lamia, to name a few...),  but i cant find any from Slavic mythos. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The best list i found is on [wikipedia][1] - but afaik there are only full-monster (like [Plivník][2], [Kikimora][3] or [Striga][4]), or full-human (like [Mavka][5], [Rusalka][6] or vampire)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any Slavic mythical human-animal hybrid creature? Or there simply isnt any?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Slavic_legendary_creatures&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cikavac&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kikimora&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strzyga&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mavka&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusalka" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12781" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3195" RevisionGUID="e1e47d56-8128-4f20-99c5-74b0f4455a83" CreationDate="2017-12-08T14:47:26.077" UserId="4522" Text="Slavic mythology, human-animal hybrid creature" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12782" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3195" RevisionGUID="e1e47d56-8128-4f20-99c5-74b0f4455a83" CreationDate="2017-12-08T14:47:26.077" UserId="4522" Text="|mythical-creatures|slavic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12783" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3196" RevisionGUID="132ccd5d-bf81-4370-af7d-86aad5eea700" CreationDate="2017-12-08T19:32:59.093" UserId="2892" Text="There was a very interesting segment on Vikings, (S5/ep3 &quot;Homeland&quot;) in which a dying Floki has a vision.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the figures in the vision is a dark robed woman, who opens her mouth to release a swarm of bees.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The close-up shot of the woman's face gave the distinct impression of necrotic flesh, so my assumption was it was probably Hel.  I found this [great article on Hel][1], but no mention of bees, and another great article on [bees and the goddess][2], but no mention of Hel.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;Extra points for any thoughts on the second woman in the vision, who transformed into a murder of crows.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://earthandstarryheaven.com/2017/11/01/hel/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://earthandstarryheaven.com/2017/08/02/bee-goddess/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12784" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3196" RevisionGUID="132ccd5d-bf81-4370-af7d-86aad5eea700" CreationDate="2017-12-08T19:32:59.093" UserId="2892" Text="Does Hel have any relationship to bees?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12785" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3196" RevisionGUID="132ccd5d-bf81-4370-af7d-86aad5eea700" CreationDate="2017-12-08T19:32:59.093" UserId="2892" Text="|norse|vikings-show|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12786" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3197" RevisionGUID="051d3413-f166-433b-b351-639ed22d2c60" CreationDate="2017-12-08T19:33:41.907" UserId="2892" Text="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikings_(TV_series)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12787" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3197" RevisionGUID="051d3413-f166-433b-b351-639ed22d2c60" CreationDate="2017-12-08T19:33:41.907" UserId="2892" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12788" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3198" RevisionGUID="20ca6663-7319-41cc-b6b0-415023cfe448" CreationDate="2017-12-08T19:33:41.907" UserId="2892" Text="For Mythology questions related to the television show Vikings." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12789" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3198" RevisionGUID="20ca6663-7319-41cc-b6b0-415023cfe448" CreationDate="2017-12-08T19:33:41.907" UserId="2892" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12790" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3199" RevisionGUID="e3d01301-b08a-4133-8eae-9740bc5af7e0" CreationDate="2017-12-08T21:11:31.283" UserId="4524" Text="Are there any trickster demons in Japanese mythology, I am aware of the somewhat tricksy Japanese god Susanoo-no-Mikoto, but are there any demons known for tricking people in Japanese mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12791" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3199" RevisionGUID="e3d01301-b08a-4133-8eae-9740bc5af7e0" CreationDate="2017-12-08T21:11:31.283" UserId="4524" Text="Japanese Trickster Demons" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12792" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3199" RevisionGUID="e3d01301-b08a-4133-8eae-9740bc5af7e0" CreationDate="2017-12-08T21:11:31.283" UserId="4524" Text="|japanese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12793" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3200" RevisionGUID="e9912788-61b0-4374-83de-0637897aa769" CreationDate="2017-12-08T23:20:02.250" UserId="4525" Text="Why should glass bullets and other odd items (usually not used as ammunition) harm a [fext][1]?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fext" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12794" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3200" RevisionGUID="e9912788-61b0-4374-83de-0637897aa769" CreationDate="2017-12-08T23:20:02.250" UserId="4525" Text="Why should glass harm a fext?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12795" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3200" RevisionGUID="e9912788-61b0-4374-83de-0637897aa769" CreationDate="2017-12-08T23:20:02.250" UserId="4525" Text="|origins|monsters|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12796" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3200" RevisionGUID="04a2a9a4-bcaf-435f-808d-12f5de836dc5" CreationDate="2017-12-09T00:29:53.847" UserId="4525" Comment="added 107 characters in body" Text="Why should glass bullets and other odd items (usually not used as ammunition) harm a [fext][1]?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A fext is a revenant that is impervious to most damage, superman style, but glass it its kryptonite, why?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fext" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12797" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3200" RevisionGUID="31c9e0d6-ed35-48e8-b5f5-a3ad2a09b456" CreationDate="2017-12-09T01:00:04.230" UserId="42" Comment="edited tags" Text="|slavic|monsters|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12798" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3201" RevisionGUID="0e2d2265-18db-4cd1-85e5-30e25ccfecaf" CreationDate="2017-12-09T01:11:31.477" UserId="4525" Text="Hejkal, Čatež, Jezinka. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One is a black man completely coved in moss, lichen, grass and bracken. Very often with animal like claws and other features, such as small horns, or patches of fur or a tail. Germans probably took this myth and created Schrat. In more modern depictions, influenced by western culture it is a big fur ball with thin hands and legs. And its name is oftentimes intechangable with Divý muž (wild man), which I believe german folklore also took over (or the other way around, who knows...)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Čatež is a slavic equivalent of the Greek satyr. Sometimes with goat legs, sometimes with deer legs, sometimes with sheep or moufflon legs. Sometimes he filled the role of Lešij, played a flute and watched fairies dance. But most often he is depicted as a spirit helping woodcutters and other people who were living from the gifts of the forest. He refused to help or harmed those who have insulted him for his looks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jezinka is sometimes just a naked cannibalistic lady running around the woods, living in caves (that's where their names comes from). But sometimes they are depicted as half boar, from the waist down." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12800" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3199" RevisionGUID="0584d454-8862-4cc8-bf42-e7f4a016ec5c" CreationDate="2017-12-09T15:22:49.193" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|japanese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12801" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3202" RevisionGUID="0b6d1204-f243-4597-8e9e-d716e93534bc" CreationDate="2017-12-09T23:58:35.160" UserId="2892" Text="- [Tengu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tengu) (天狗)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A lot of my knowledge about them comes from the oral tradition, but the Wiki makes an interesting point that they were originally regarded as demons in a Buddhist context.  In the Shinto contexts, they were simply [yōkai][1] (妖怪).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tengu are often thought of as a type of forest goblin, and may be benefactors or adversaries, which is typical of tricksters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tengu are known for their long noses and, often, their skill martial skills, particularly with the sword.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y%C5%8Dkai" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12803" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3203" RevisionGUID="aafc6d14-2399-4271-b196-f32b15c9494c" CreationDate="2017-12-11T15:57:05.940" UserId="292" Text="I don't think Hel is particularly associated with bees, but I am going to guess that the woman who turns into crows is either a [valkyrie][1] (a logical association, carrion birds and choosers of the slain) or else a [dis][2], a sort of personal (or familial) protective spirit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.transceltic.com/pan-celtic/ravens-celtic-and-norse-mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%ADs" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12804" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3203" RevisionGUID="225efa4f-5789-46b9-8f49-0752ff0802fa" CreationDate="2017-12-11T16:02:09.133" UserId="292" Comment="added 336 characters in body" Text="I don't think Hel is particularly associated with bees, but I am going to guess that the woman who turns into crows is either a [valkyrie][1] (a logical association, carrion birds and choosers of the slain) or else a [dis][2], a sort of personal (or familial) protective spirit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Bees feed from the honeydew that drips from Yggdrasil, according to the Prose Edda ([Gylf 16][3]) and the Norns live by the root of the tree, so perhaps the bees are agents or fate, or psychopomps? (Although the latter is proabably a [Mycenean idea][4], not Norse.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.transceltic.com/pan-celtic/ravens-celtic-and-norse-mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%ADs&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://itsallgreeklondon.wordpress.com/2014/10/22/the-minoan-honeybees/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12805" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3204" RevisionGUID="08b0e9c4-bfba-4b09-afc8-57941b195ac8" CreationDate="2017-12-11T20:19:20.340" UserId="4525" Text="Do you know of any mythical beings, that are hurt by **odd items or materials?** like buttons from a shirt or something, something that would not be usually considered a weapon, or a material you would usually not use for making weapons. I would like if you would provide **an explanation**, as to **why do they have this weakness?** If you don't know the reason, you can still mention it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I want to focus on European mythology (any), but Mythology from other parts of the world are welcome.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Vampires and werewolves are well known, please do not include them, unless they fit the parameters (which means no silver and no garlic vs. werewolves,vampires)&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12806" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3204" RevisionGUID="08b0e9c4-bfba-4b09-afc8-57941b195ac8" CreationDate="2017-12-11T20:19:20.340" UserId="4525" Text="Why should odd things hurt mythical beings?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12807" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3204" RevisionGUID="08b0e9c4-bfba-4b09-afc8-57941b195ac8" CreationDate="2017-12-11T20:19:20.340" UserId="4525" Text="|monsters|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12808" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3203" RevisionGUID="d4e481b3-136d-4d18-8e50-48c073899f11" CreationDate="2017-12-11T22:41:53.713" UserId="292" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="I don't think Hel is particularly associated with bees, but I am going to guess that the woman who turns into crows is either a [valkyrie][1] (a logical association, carrion birds and choosers of the slain) or else a [dis][2], a sort of personal (or familial) protective spirit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Bees feed from the honeydew that drips from Yggdrasil, according to the *Prose Edda* (*[Gylf* 16][3]) and the Norns live by the root of the tree, so perhaps the bees are agents of fate, or psychopomps? (Although the latter is proabably a [Mycenean idea][4], not Norse.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.transceltic.com/pan-celtic/ravens-celtic-and-norse-mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%ADs&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://itsallgreeklondon.wordpress.com/2014/10/22/the-minoan-honeybees/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12812" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3205" RevisionGUID="1561e69c-f47a-40d3-871c-07a5e5967378" CreationDate="2017-12-12T10:07:12.263" UserId="4121" Text="Well though I see the question has been answered. You have asked for other versions of the myth as well. This story originated in Hindu mythology, It is called 'The myth of Manu'. The Hindi word for man - &quot;Manushya&quot; actually traces its roots to this name. He is purported to be the progenitor of all humans according to the Vedas. So in a way it's a way a combination of the myth of Adam and the myth of Noah. I would try to condense the story here but it is pretty long. I can provide a few links though, you can search for the 'The myth of manu' or 'The myth of Matsya Avatar'.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://hindumythologyforgennext.blogspot.in/2011/11/matsya-avatar.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matsya&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;this one has a more concise version of the myth - &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Le-Me/Manu.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12813" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3206" RevisionGUID="3f371e1d-3f98-4e75-839d-9038985153b1" CreationDate="2017-12-12T14:31:42.107" UserId="4527" Text="I have noticed a few stories that talk about dragons having toxic blood or meat. Their offshoots(?), wyverns, have a particular association with poison.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Despite this, there is a lot of culture related to eating dragons, which continues to the modern day with Chinese eating dragon fossils (dinosaurs) for their claimed medicinal properties. Similarly, we have South American villages who claim to have eaten the mokele mbembe and have become sick.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is this theme common to dragon myth at large, or is it mostly a European idea (namely Germanic myth)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12814" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3206" RevisionGUID="3f371e1d-3f98-4e75-839d-9038985153b1" CreationDate="2017-12-12T14:31:42.107" UserId="4527" Text="Common theme of Toxic Dragon Meat?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12815" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3206" RevisionGUID="3f371e1d-3f98-4e75-839d-9038985153b1" CreationDate="2017-12-12T14:31:42.107" UserId="4527" Text="|mythical-creatures|comparative|dragons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12816" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3207" RevisionGUID="76b38dcb-7b66-47c8-a56d-96bda78a63ec" CreationDate="2017-12-12T21:13:33.213" UserId="2892" Text="I'm going to guess that the stories of toxicity of dragon meat is largely modern, as I can't think of stories from the traditional canons where this is a story element.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It may derive from the story of Nessus the Centaur, Herakles and his wife Deianeira.  [Note: the wiki for this story has some problems--specifically, the poison derives not from the centaur's blood but from the hydra's poison on Herakles' arrows.]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is the pseudo-Apollodorus source for the story, [(Book 2, Chapter 7, Sections 6 &amp; 7)][1], although the pseudo-Hyginus is more specific:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Nessus, son of Ixion and Nubes, a centaur, was asked by Dejanira to carry her across the river Evenus, but as he was carrying her, in the very river he tried to ravish her. When Hercules came there, and Dejanira implored his aid, he pierced Nessus with his arrows. As he died, Nessus, knowing how poisonous the arrows were, since they had been dipped in the gall of the Lernaean Hydra, drew out some of his blood and gave it to Dejanira, telling her it was a love-charm. If she wanted her husband not to desert her, she should have his garments smeared with this blood. Dejanira, believing him, kept it carefully preserved.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Pseudo-Hyginus, [*Fabulae*, 34][2] (trans. Grant)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and the Ovid even moreso:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He shot an arrow through the centaur's back, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;so that the keen barb was exposed beyond&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;his bleeding breast. He tore it from both wounds,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;and life-blood spurted instantly, mixed with&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;the deadly poison of Lernaean hydra.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;This Nessus caught, and muttering, “I shall not&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;die unavenged”, he gave his tunic, soaked&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;with blood to Deianira as a gift;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;and said, “Keep this to strengthen waning love.”&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Ovid, [*Metamorphosis*, 9.98][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**WESTERN vs. EASTERN DRAGONS**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the west, dragons are associated with evil and fire, deriving from Greek myth and sagas such as the [Volsungs][4] and [Beowulf][5], and extended in [Tolkien][6].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the East, China in particular, dragons are symbols of good luck and associated with water.  (Often their role in the universal structure is to bring rain, the greatest boon to an agricultural society.  i.e. rain = good fortune).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The magical effects of dragon flesh or bones is a function of &quot;[sympathetic magic][7]&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is the idea the object are imbued with properties, and &quot;like begets like&quot;.  T&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; If we analyse the principles of thought on which magic is based, they will probably be found to resolve themselves into two: first, that like produces like, or that an effect resembles its cause; and, second, that things which have once been in contact with each other continue to act on each other at a distance after the physical contact has been severed.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Frazer, [*The Golden Bough* III.1][7]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- In the west, eating dragon flesh would produce negative effects, mirroring the poisonous and destructive nature of dragons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- In the east, consuming dragon bones would produce positive effects, mirroring the dragons' association with good fortune.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D2%3Achapter%3D7%3Asection%3D6&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusFabulae1.html#34&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D98&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lsunga_saga&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf#Third_battle:_The_Dragon&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smaug&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.bartleby.com/196/5.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12817" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3207" RevisionGUID="d97cd7dd-9875-4987-a03e-668a1ef87c25" CreationDate="2017-12-12T21:19:10.463" UserId="2892" Comment="Added a note on the Sigurd myth re: positive effects of dragon's blood." Text="I'm going to guess that the stories of toxicity of dragon meat is largely modern, as I can't think of stories from the traditional canons where this is a story element.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It may derive from the story of Nessus the Centaur, Herakles and his wife Deianeira.  [Note: the wiki for this story has some problems--specifically, the poison derives not from the centaur's blood but from the hydra's poison on Herakles' arrows.]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is the pseudo-Apollodorus source for the story, [(Book 2, Chapter 7, Sections 6 &amp; 7)][1], although the pseudo-Hyginus is more specific:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Nessus, son of Ixion and Nubes, a centaur, was asked by Dejanira to carry her across the river Evenus, but as he was carrying her, in the very river he tried to ravish her. When Hercules came there, and Dejanira implored his aid, he pierced Nessus with his arrows. As he died, Nessus, knowing how poisonous the arrows were, since they had been dipped in the gall of the Lernaean Hydra, drew out some of his blood and gave it to Dejanira, telling her it was a love-charm. If she wanted her husband not to desert her, she should have his garments smeared with this blood. Dejanira, believing him, kept it carefully preserved.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Pseudo-Hyginus, [*Fabulae*, 34][2] (trans. Grant)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and the Ovid even moreso:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He shot an arrow through the centaur's back, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;so that the keen barb was exposed beyond&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;his bleeding breast. He tore it from both wounds,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;and life-blood spurted instantly, mixed with&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;the deadly poison of Lernaean hydra.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;This Nessus caught, and muttering, “I shall not&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;die unavenged”, he gave his tunic, soaked&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;with blood to Deianira as a gift;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;and said, “Keep this to strengthen waning love.”&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Ovid, [*Metamorphosis*, 9.98][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**WESTERN vs. EASTERN DRAGONS**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the west, dragons are associated with evil and fire, deriving from Greek myth and sagas such as the [Volsungs][4] and [Beowulf][5], and extended in [Tolkien][6].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the East, China in particular, dragons are symbols of good luck and associated with water.  (Often their role in the universal structure is to bring rain, the greatest boon to an agricultural society.  i.e. rain = good fortune).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The magical effects of dragon flesh or bones is a function of &quot;[Sympathetic Magic][7]&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is the idea the object are imbued with properties, and &quot;like begets like&quot;.  T&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; If we analyse the principles of thought on which magic is based, they will probably be found to resolve themselves into two: first, that like produces like, or that an effect resembles its cause; and, second, that things which have once been in contact with each other continue to act on each other at a distance after the physical contact has been severed.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Frazer, [*The Golden Bough* III.1][7]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- In the west, eating dragon flesh would produce negative effects, mirroring the poisonous and destructive nature of dragons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- In the east, consuming dragon bones would produce positive effects, mirroring the dragons' association with good fortune.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;NOTE:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's slightly more complex in that, in the Volsungs, [tasting the dragon's blood grants Sigurd magical powers][8].  In this context, it is the presumably some of the magical properties and skills of the dragon transferred to Sigurd.  Still under the umbrella of Sympathetic Magic, but with a different meaning/expression.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D2%3Achapter%3D7%3Asection%3D6&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusFabulae1.html#34&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D98&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lsunga_saga&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf#Third_battle:_The_Dragon&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smaug&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.bartleby.com/196/5.html&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lsunga_saga#Sigurd_and_his_foster_family" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12818" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3207" RevisionGUID="a2aee1ec-8f89-4cb7-9eb6-05ceefcfe1de" CreationDate="2017-12-12T21:48:56.297" UserId="2892" Comment="added a note on the Tang priest and a reference to a famous Chinese folktale trope." Text="I'm going to guess that the stories of toxicity of dragon meat is largely modern, as I can't think of stories from the traditional canons where this is a story element.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It may derive from the story of Nessus the Centaur, Herakles and his wife Deianeira.  [Note: the wiki for this story has some problems--specifically, the poison derives not from the centaur's blood but from the hydra's poison on Herakles' arrows.]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is the pseudo-Apollodorus source for the story, [(Book 2, Chapter 7, Sections 6 &amp; 7)][1], although the pseudo-Hyginus is more specific:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Nessus, son of Ixion and Nubes, a centaur, was asked by Dejanira to carry her across the river Evenus, but as he was carrying her, in the very river he tried to ravish her. When Hercules came there, and Dejanira implored his aid, he pierced Nessus with his arrows. As he died, Nessus, knowing how poisonous the arrows were, since they had been dipped in the gall of the Lernaean Hydra, drew out some of his blood and gave it to Dejanira, telling her it was a love-charm. If she wanted her husband not to desert her, she should have his garments smeared with this blood. Dejanira, believing him, kept it carefully preserved.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Pseudo-Hyginus, [*Fabulae*, 34][2] (trans. Grant)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and the Ovid even moreso:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He shot an arrow through the centaur's back, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;so that the keen barb was exposed beyond&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;his bleeding breast. He tore it from both wounds,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;and life-blood spurted instantly, mixed with&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;the deadly poison of Lernaean hydra.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;This Nessus caught, and muttering, “I shall not&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;die unavenged”, he gave his tunic, soaked&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;with blood to Deianira as a gift;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;and said, “Keep this to strengthen waning love.”&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Ovid, [*Metamorphosis*, 9.98][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**WESTERN vs. EASTERN DRAGONS**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the west, dragons are associated with evil and fire, deriving from Greek myth and sagas such as the [Volsungs][4] and [Beowulf][5], and extended in [Tolkien][6].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the East, China in particular, dragons are symbols of good luck and associated with water.  (Often their role in the universal structure is to bring rain, the greatest boon to an agricultural society.  i.e. rain = good fortune).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The magical effects of dragon flesh or bones is a function of &quot;[Sympathetic Magic][7]&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is the idea the object are imbued with properties, and &quot;like begets like&quot;.  T&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; If we analyse the principles of thought on which magic is based, they will probably be found to resolve themselves into two: first, that like produces like, or that an effect resembles its cause; and, second, that things which have once been in contact with each other continue to act on each other at a distance after the physical contact has been severed.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Frazer, [*The Golden Bough* III.1][7]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- In the west, eating dragon flesh would produce negative effects, mirroring the poisonous and destructive nature of dragons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- In the east, consuming dragon bones would produce positive effects, mirroring the dragons' association with good fortune.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;NOTE:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's slightly more complex in that, in the Volsungs, [tasting the dragon's blood grants Sigurd magical powers][8].  In this context, it is the presumably some of the magical properties and skills of the dragon transferred to Sigurd.  Still under the umbrella of Sympathetic Magic, but with a different meaning/expression.  This may have something to do with the overt Christian influence in Beowulf, where the flesh of something evil would only be negative, where a pagan framework might be focused purely on the power imbued in the flesh, without moral judgement.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Offhand, I can't think of Chinese tales of dragon flesh being consumed, although there is a famous story of a dragon trapped in carp form, who is almost eaten--a scholar frees the magical carp and receives a boon.  However, the eating the flesh of the [Tang Priest][9] is a central device in [Journey to the West][10].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D2%3Achapter%3D7%3Asection%3D6&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusFabulae1.html#34&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D98&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lsunga_saga&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf#Third_battle:_The_Dragon&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smaug&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.bartleby.com/196/5.html&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lsunga_saga#Sigurd_and_his_foster_family&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xuanzang_(Journey_to_the_West)&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_to_the_West" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12819" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3207" RevisionGUID="b4c19791-7b7b-4116-b3cc-08ef79dd74e4" CreationDate="2017-12-12T21:57:17.803" UserId="2892" Comment="added a note on the Tang priest and a reference to a famous Chinese folktale trope." Text="I'm going to guess that the stories of toxicity of dragon meat is largely modern, as I can't think of stories from the traditional canons where this is a story element.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It may derive from the story of Nessus the Centaur, Herakles and his wife Deianeira.  [Note: the wiki for this story has some problems--specifically, the poison derives not from the centaur's blood but from the hydra's poison on Herakles' arrows.]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is the pseudo-Apollodorus source for the story, [(Book 2, Chapter 7, Sections 6 &amp; 7)][1], although the pseudo-Hyginus is more specific:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Nessus, son of Ixion and Nubes, a centaur, was asked by Dejanira to carry her across the river Evenus, but as he was carrying her, in the very river he tried to ravish her. When Hercules came there, and Dejanira implored his aid, he pierced Nessus with his arrows. As he died, Nessus, knowing how poisonous the arrows were, since they had been dipped in the gall of the Lernaean Hydra, drew out some of his blood and gave it to Dejanira, telling her it was a love-charm. If she wanted her husband not to desert her, she should have his garments smeared with this blood. Dejanira, believing him, kept it carefully preserved.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Pseudo-Hyginus, [*Fabulae*, 34][2] (trans. Grant)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and the Ovid even moreso:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He shot an arrow through the centaur's back, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;so that the keen barb was exposed beyond&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;his bleeding breast. He tore it from both wounds,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;and life-blood spurted instantly, mixed with&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;the deadly poison of Lernaean hydra.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;This Nessus caught, and muttering, “I shall not&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;die unavenged”, he gave his tunic, soaked&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;with blood to Deianira as a gift;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;and said, “Keep this to strengthen waning love.”&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Ovid, [*Metamorphosis*, 9.98][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**WESTERN vs. EASTERN DRAGONS**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the west, dragons are associated with evil and fire, deriving from Greek myth and sagas such as the [Volsungs][4] and [Beowulf][5], and extended in [Tolkien][6].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the East, China in particular, dragons are symbols of good luck and associated with water.  (Often their role in the universal structure is to bring rain, the greatest boon to an agricultural society.  i.e. rain = good fortune).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The magical effects of dragon flesh or bones is a function of &quot;[Sympathetic Magic][7]&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is the idea the object are imbued with properties, and &quot;like begets like&quot;.  T&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; If we analyse the principles of thought on which magic is based, they will probably be found to resolve themselves into two: first, that like produces like, or that an effect resembles its cause; and, second, that things which have once been in contact with each other continue to act on each other at a distance after the physical contact has been severed.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Frazer, [*The Golden Bough* III.1][7]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- In the west, eating dragon flesh would produce negative effects, mirroring the poisonous and destructive nature of dragons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- In the east, consuming dragon bones would produce positive effects, mirroring the dragons' association with good fortune.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;NOTE:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's slightly more complex in that, in the Volsungs, [tasting the dragon's blood grants Sigurd magical powers][8].  In this context, magical powers from the dragon transferred are to Sigurd. This still falls under the umbrella of Sympathetic Magic, but with a different meaning/expression. The interpretation may have something to do with the lack of overt Christian influence in the  Völsunga (com-are to Beowulf) where the emphasis is on the power imbued in the flesh, without moral judgement.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Offhand, I can't think of Chinese tales of dragon flesh being consumed, although there is a famous folktale of a dragon trapped in carp form, who is almost eaten--a perceptive scholar instead frees the magical carp and receives a boon.  However, the eating the flesh of the [Tang Priest][9] is a central device in [Journey to the West][10]. Again, here the magical flesh confers immorality in connection to the enlightened being incarnated in the priest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D2%3Achapter%3D7%3Asection%3D6&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusFabulae1.html#34&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D98&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lsunga_saga&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf#Third_battle:_The_Dragon&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smaug&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.bartleby.com/196/5.html&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lsunga_saga#Sigurd_and_his_foster_family&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xuanzang_(Journey_to_the_West)&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_to_the_West" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12820" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3207" RevisionGUID="c005b623-08da-49e6-adbd-855f2d02d9da" CreationDate="2017-12-12T22:24:03.513" UserId="2892" Comment="corrected the wiki and removed my note about it having some problems. :)" Text="I'm going to guess that the stories of toxicity of dragon meat is largely modern, as I can't think of stories from the traditional canons where this is a story element.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It may derive from the story of [Nessus the Centaur][1], Hercules and his wife Deianeira. The story can be found in Apollodorus, [(Book 2, Chapter 7, Sections 6 &amp; 7)][2], although the Hyginus is more specific:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Nessus, son of Ixion and Nubes, a centaur, was asked by Dejanira to carry her across the river Evenus, but as he was carrying her, in the very river he tried to ravish her. When Hercules came there, and Dejanira implored his aid, he pierced Nessus with his arrows. As he died, Nessus, knowing how poisonous the arrows were, since they had been dipped in the gall of the Lernaean Hydra, drew out some of his blood and gave it to Dejanira, telling her it was a love-charm. If she wanted her husband not to desert her, she should have his garments smeared with this blood. Dejanira, believing him, kept it carefully preserved.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Pseudo-Hyginus, [*Fabulae*, 34][3] (trans. Grant)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and the Ovid even moreso:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He shot an arrow through the centaur's back, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;so that the keen barb was exposed beyond&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;his bleeding breast. He tore it from both wounds,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;and life-blood spurted instantly, mixed with&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;the deadly poison of Lernaean hydra.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;This Nessus caught, and muttering, “I shall not&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;die unavenged”, he gave his tunic, soaked&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;with blood to Deianira as a gift;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;and said, “Keep this to strengthen waning love.”&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Ovid, [*Metamorphosis*, 9.98][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**WESTERN vs. EASTERN DRAGONS**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the west, dragons are associated with evil and fire, deriving from Greek myth and sagas such as the [Volsungs][5] and [Beowulf][6], and extended in [Tolkien][7].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the East, China in particular, dragons are symbols of good luck and associated with water.  (Often their role in the universal structure is to bring rain, the greatest boon to an agricultural society.  i.e. rain = good fortune).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The magical effects of dragon flesh or bones is a function of &quot;[Sympathetic Magic][8]&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is the idea the object are imbued with properties, and &quot;like begets like&quot;.  T&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; If we analyse the principles of thought on which magic is based, they will probably be found to resolve themselves into two: first, that like produces like, or that an effect resembles its cause; and, second, that things which have once been in contact with each other continue to act on each other at a distance after the physical contact has been severed.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Frazer, [*The Golden Bough* III.1][8]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- In the west, eating dragon flesh would produce negative effects, mirroring the poisonous and destructive nature of dragons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- In the east, consuming dragon bones would produce positive effects, mirroring the dragons' association with good fortune.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;NOTE:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's slightly more complex in that, in the Volsungs, [tasting the dragon's blood grants Sigurd magical powers][9].  In this context, magical powers from the dragon transferred are to Sigurd. This still falls under the umbrella of Sympathetic Magic, but with a different meaning/expression. The interpretation may have something to do with the lack of overt Christian influence in the  Völsunga (com-are to Beowulf) where the emphasis is on the power imbued in the flesh, without moral judgement.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Offhand, I can't think of Chinese tales of dragon flesh being consumed, although there is a famous folktale of a dragon trapped in carp form, who is almost eaten--a perceptive scholar instead frees the magical carp and receives a boon.  However, the eating the flesh of the [Tang Priest][10] is a central device in [Journey to the West][11]. Again, here the magical flesh confers immorality in connection to the enlightened being incarnated in the priest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirt_of_Nessus#Mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D2%3Achapter%3D7%3Asection%3D6&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusFabulae1.html#34&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D98&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lsunga_saga&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf#Third_battle:_The_Dragon&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smaug&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.bartleby.com/196/5.html&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lsunga_saga#Sigurd_and_his_foster_family&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xuanzang_(Journey_to_the_West)&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_to_the_West" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12821" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="3204" RevisionGUID="25cc38b0-e1c9-4c72-a162-e9239ccebe3a" CreationDate="2017-12-13T07:41:19.163" UserId="108" Comment="104" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:108,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Semaphore&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="12822" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3206" RevisionGUID="249ee6d5-5d57-40be-95d9-2d946e4cdee2" CreationDate="2017-12-13T07:50:37.840" UserId="108" Comment="edited title" Text="Is there a common theme of dragon meat being toxic?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12823" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3204" RevisionGUID="4dd39029-ca25-4ac3-a8c4-c1d621782e67" CreationDate="2017-12-13T08:37:18.800" UserId="4525" Comment="added 191 characters in body; added 2 characters in body" Text="Do you know of any mythical beings, that are hurt by **odd items or materials?** like buttons from a shirt or something, something that would not be usually considered a weapon, or a material you would usually not use for making weapons. I would like if you would provide **an explanation**, as to **why do they have this weakness?** If you don't know the reason, you can still mention it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I want to focus on **European** mythology (any), but Mythology from other parts of the world are welcome.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am looking for **lethal or pain inducing weakness**. I am not interested in weaknesses that deplete creatures stamina or help to contain it (like fenrirs' chains)&#xA;&#xA;Vampires and werewolves are well known, please do not include them, unless they fit the parameters (which means no silver and no garlic vs. werewolves,vampires. We already know that.)&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12825" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3207" RevisionGUID="6f4c4a35-42c2-4e23-9dbd-2f2e6cd6aa52" CreationDate="2017-12-13T20:02:32.243" UserId="2892" Comment="edited body" Text="I'm going to guess that the stories of toxicity of dragon meat is largely modern, as I can't think of stories from the traditional canons where this is a story element.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It may derive from the story of [Nessus the Centaur][1], Hercules and his wife Deianeira. The story can be found in Apollodorus, [(Book 2, Chapter 7, Sections 6 &amp; 7)][2], although the Hyginus is more specific:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Nessus, son of Ixion and Nubes, a centaur, was asked by Dejanira to carry her across the river Evenus, but as he was carrying her, in the very river he tried to ravish her. When Hercules came there, and Dejanira implored his aid, he pierced Nessus with his arrows. As he died, Nessus, knowing how poisonous the arrows were, since they had been dipped in the gall of the Lernaean Hydra, drew out some of his blood and gave it to Dejanira, telling her it was a love-charm. If she wanted her husband not to desert her, she should have his garments smeared with this blood. Dejanira, believing him, kept it carefully preserved.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Pseudo-Hyginus, [*Fabulae*, 34][3] (trans. Grant)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and the Ovid even moreso:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He shot an arrow through the centaur's back, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;so that the keen barb was exposed beyond&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;his bleeding breast. He tore it from both wounds,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;and life-blood spurted instantly, mixed with&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;the deadly poison of Lernaean hydra.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;This Nessus caught, and muttering, “I shall not&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;die unavenged”, he gave his tunic, soaked&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;with blood to Deianira as a gift;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;and said, “Keep this to strengthen waning love.”&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Ovid, [*Metamorphosis*, 9.98][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**WESTERN vs. EASTERN DRAGONS**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the west, dragons are associated with evil and fire, deriving from Greek myth and sagas such as the [Volsungs][5] and [Beowulf][6], and extended in [Tolkien][7].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the East, China in particular, dragons are symbols of good luck and associated with water.  (Often their role in the universal structure is to bring rain, the greatest boon to an agricultural society.  i.e. rain = good fortune).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The magical effects of dragon flesh or bones is a function of &quot;[Sympathetic Magic][8]&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is the idea the object are imbued with properties, and &quot;like begets like&quot;.  T&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; If we analyse the principles of thought on which magic is based, they will probably be found to resolve themselves into two: first, that like produces like, or that an effect resembles its cause; and, second, that things which have once been in contact with each other continue to act on each other at a distance after the physical contact has been severed.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Frazer, [*The Golden Bough* III.1][8]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- In the west, eating dragon flesh would produce negative effects, mirroring the poisonous and destructive nature of dragons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- In the east, consuming dragon bones would produce positive effects, mirroring the dragons' association with good fortune.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;NOTE:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's slightly more complex in that, in the Volsungs, [tasting the dragon's blood grants Sigurd magical powers][9].  In this context, magical powers from the dragon transferred are to Sigurd. This still falls under the umbrella of Sympathetic Magic, but with a different meaning/expression. The interpretation may have something to do with the lack of overt Christian influence in the  Völsunga (compare to Beowulf) where the emphasis is on the power imbued in the blood, without moral judgement.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Offhand, I can't think of Chinese tales of dragon flesh being consumed, although there is a famous folktale of a dragon trapped in carp form, who is almost eaten--a perceptive scholar instead frees the magical carp and receives a boon.  However, the eating the flesh of the [Tang Priest][10] is a central device in [Journey to the West][11]. Again, here the magical flesh confers immorality in connection to the enlightened being incarnated in the priest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirt_of_Nessus#Mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D2%3Achapter%3D7%3Asection%3D6&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusFabulae1.html#34&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D98&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lsunga_saga&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf#Third_battle:_The_Dragon&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smaug&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.bartleby.com/196/5.html&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lsunga_saga#Sigurd_and_his_foster_family&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xuanzang_(Journey_to_the_West)&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_to_the_West" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12827" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3208" RevisionGUID="766beada-d7dc-4b33-8470-3c7d2106dd9d" CreationDate="2017-12-16T16:31:01.520" UserId="2810" Text="While researching [this answer](https://scifi.stackexchange.com/a/176307/33591) , I came across two different versions of *why* Māui pushed up the sky: either to impress a girl with his power, or because he saw that humans were suffering. But... the only source for that second reason - humans suffering - comes from Wikipedia (see reference [8] in the linked answer).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a better source for this? Is this actually a real version of the myth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12828" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3208" RevisionGUID="766beada-d7dc-4b33-8470-3c7d2106dd9d" CreationDate="2017-12-16T16:31:01.520" UserId="2810" Text="Is there a source for Māui pushing up the sky because he saw that humans were suffering?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12829" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3208" RevisionGUID="766beada-d7dc-4b33-8470-3c7d2106dd9d" CreationDate="2017-12-16T16:31:01.520" UserId="2810" Text="|polynesian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12830" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="101" RevisionGUID="b456a42e-c944-4889-81aa-d750fc00e3ca" CreationDate="2017-12-16T20:56:33.123" UserId="197" Comment="add broader tag [polynesian]" Text="|easter-island|polynesian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12831" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="101" RevisionGUID="b456a42e-c944-4889-81aa-d750fc00e3ca" CreationDate="2017-12-16T20:56:33.123" Comment="Proposed by 197 approved by 111, 292 edit id of 512" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12832" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3208" RevisionGUID="dea95844-d6f3-4b1e-a324-6ad293e30e60" CreationDate="2017-12-16T21:31:31.423" UserId="2810" Comment="typo" Text="While researching [this answer](https://scifi.stackexchange.com/a/176307/33591), I came across two different versions of *why* Māui pushed up the sky: either to impress a girl with his power, or because he saw that humans were suffering. But... the only source for that second reason - humans suffering - comes from Wikipedia (see reference [8] in the linked answer).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a better source for this? Is this actually a real version of the myth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12833" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1176" RevisionGUID="f2958544-6803-45d1-86e0-e2fa00292a9a" CreationDate="2017-12-16T23:03:46.733" UserId="4390" Comment="more clarity, as narrowness of scope still wasn't clear until I'd read most of the page" Text="Does there exist alternative names for vampires? Perhaps an euphemism; for example, in Harry Potter, those who feared Voldemort called him &quot;He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named&quot; in lieu of his real name. Or perhaps something like a [true name](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_name).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there anything like this with vampires?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To clarify, I don't mean translations of the word vampire in different languages, nor do I mean variations on vampire lore in different cultures.  I am writing a book, and considering using vampires perhaps, but I would like to be specific, and not calling them just vampires." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12834" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1176" RevisionGUID="f2958544-6803-45d1-86e0-e2fa00292a9a" CreationDate="2017-12-16T23:03:46.733" Comment="Proposed by 4390 approved by 967, 1241 edit id of 508" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12835" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3170" RevisionGUID="308918ab-cf9c-4a40-bd29-d68086072108" CreationDate="2017-12-16T23:04:10.577" UserId="4540" Comment="added reference, improved formatting and wording" Text="[Wikipedia’s article on Thoth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoth) states that A’ani is a form of Thoth, which is consistent with what I know about Thoth, although much of the information I'm working with comes through the hermeticism.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia’s citation for A’ani comes from Budge’s [*Hieroglyphic Dictionary*][1], but the work dates from 1920, so I’m assuming there may be more recent scholarship.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://archive.org/details/egyptianhierogly01budguoft" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12836" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3170" RevisionGUID="308918ab-cf9c-4a40-bd29-d68086072108" CreationDate="2017-12-16T23:04:10.577" UserId="4540" Comment="added reference, improved formatting and wording" Text="What is known about A’ani, the ancient Egyptian God of Equilibrium?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12837" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3170" RevisionGUID="308918ab-cf9c-4a40-bd29-d68086072108" CreationDate="2017-12-16T23:04:10.577" Comment="Proposed by 4540 approved by 292, 1241 edit id of 515" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12838" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2681" RevisionGUID="4a474cfc-ffd3-40c3-86ec-ca6c7784fb65" CreationDate="2017-12-16T23:04:53.097" UserId="4540" Comment="rewrite into English" Text="It looks like Zeus punished Prometheus for stealing fire for humans, but that he then did nothing to take that fire away. While Prometheus was hanging on the rock, humans still possessed fire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was this because Zeus did not want to withhold fire from them for some reason, or was it because he could not do so? In both cases, why? If I understand correctly, Zeus withheld fire from humans once. Why wasn’t it withheld from them a second time?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12839" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2681" RevisionGUID="4a474cfc-ffd3-40c3-86ec-ca6c7784fb65" CreationDate="2017-12-16T23:04:53.097" UserId="4540" Comment="rewrite into English" Text="Why didn’t Zeus withhold fire from humans the second time?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12840" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2681" RevisionGUID="4a474cfc-ffd3-40c3-86ec-ca6c7784fb65" CreationDate="2017-12-16T23:04:53.097" Comment="Proposed by 4540 approved by 292, 1241 edit id of 513" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12841" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3167" RevisionGUID="fb97264c-a3ca-49a5-837d-3675b6842ce9" CreationDate="2017-12-16T23:05:22.787" UserId="4540" Comment="Clarify wording" Text="I've been very perplexed over the confusing matter regarding Saturn and how he was viewed by the early Romans. Some say he was a just king who ruled the Romans in a golden age, succeeding Janus. Others claim Saturn was a god. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then who was Jupiter Latiaris? What if any connection exists between the very primitive acknowledgement of Jupiter being supreme on the one hand and the cults of Saturn on the other?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12842" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3167" RevisionGUID="fb97264c-a3ca-49a5-837d-3675b6842ce9" CreationDate="2017-12-16T23:05:22.787" Comment="Proposed by 4540 approved by 292, 1241 edit id of 514" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12844" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3209" RevisionGUID="e066e229-b7cf-4a60-95ee-4f3d19ac6578" CreationDate="2017-12-17T13:54:59.503" UserId="2810" Text="[Papahānaumoku](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papahānaumoku) is the Polynesian mother island goddess. While looking her up on Wikipedia, I see this line:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Papanuihanaumoku, also known as Papa and Papatuanuku died in Waieri, Tahiti.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I Googled this, and came up with at least two other sources for this ([1](https://wikivisually.com/wiki/Papahānaumoku)) ([2](https://www.revolvy.com/main/index.php?s=Papahānaumoku)), but they all seem to say *exactly* the same thing, and I'm not sure I can trust this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Did Papahānaumoku die?**" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12845" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3209" RevisionGUID="e066e229-b7cf-4a60-95ee-4f3d19ac6578" CreationDate="2017-12-17T13:54:59.503" UserId="2810" Text="Did Papahānaumoku die?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12846" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3209" RevisionGUID="e066e229-b7cf-4a60-95ee-4f3d19ac6578" CreationDate="2017-12-17T13:54:59.503" UserId="2810" Text="|polynesian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12847" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3210" RevisionGUID="19d80e16-7d62-4d04-af0c-426524f22a95" CreationDate="2017-12-17T19:29:49.510" UserId="108" Text="Sort of.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This particular sentence was added by an unregistered user, who also wrote that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Papa is one of my ancestors. She was the daughter of Kuaniehu . . . She was certainly not a God, her descendants from her and her husbands were the Ariki lines (High ranking Nobles) of Hawaii, Rarotonga, Aitutaki and the Maori. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first bit has since been removed from the article. But from this, it is evident that this user is referring to the Papa who was a great-great...great-grand-daughter of [Hawaii'loa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiiloa). She is said to have married an alternating series of Hawaiian and Tahitian chiefs, namely, Wakea, Te-rii-fanau, Waia, and Te-rii-aumai, and was hence the progenitor of chiefs of both island systems.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is thus on account of her being the mother of chiefs, both here [Hawaii] and in Tahiti, that she is called Papa Nui Hanau Moku. She is said to have been a comely, handsome woman, very fair and  almost white. Papa is said to have travelled eight times between Tahiti and Hawaii, and died in a place called Waieri, in Tahiti, during the time of Nanakehili, the fifth in descent from her and Wakea.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Cartwright, Bruce. &quot;The Legend of Hawaii-loa.&quot; *The Journal of the Polynesian Society* 38.2 (150 (1929): 105-121.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This Papa was also identified as Huhune or Haumea. Haumea is of course also the Hawaiian [goddess of childbirth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haumea_(mythology)), for whom a [dwarf planet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haumea) was named a few years ago. She is sometimes identified as a manifestation of Papahānaumoku the Earth Mother, or as her human incarnation. But there's a great deal of confusion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A Haumea appears in the [*Kumulipo*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumulipo) with Wakea, as the progenitors of the Hwaiian people. Here she is said to have re-incarnated several times to marry her sons and grandsons for six generations, until Kio saw through her. In this version, it's unclear what happened to her after that.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Many forms had this woman Haumea  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Great Haumea was mysterious  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mysterious was Haumea in the way she lived  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; She lived with her grandchildren  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; She slept with her children  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Slept with her child Kauakahi as [?] the wife Kuaimehani  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Slept with her grandchild Kaua-huli-honua  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; As [?] his wife Huli-honua  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Slept with her grandchild Haloa  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; As [?] his wife Hinamanoʻuluaʻe  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Slept with her grandchild Waia as [?] his wife Huhune  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Slept with her grandchild Hinanalo as [?] his wife Haunuʻu  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Slept with her grandchild Nanakahili as [?] his wife Haulani  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Slept with her grandchild Wailoa as [?] his wife Hikapua- neiea  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kiʻo was born, Haumea was recognized  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Haumea was seen to be shriveled  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cold and undesirable  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Beckwith, Martha Warren, ed. *The Kumulipo: a Hawaiian Creation Chant.* University of Hawaii Press, 1981.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The above source is also available online at the Ulukau Hawaiian Electronic Library [**here**](http://www.ulukau.org/elib/cgi-bin/library?c=beckwit2&amp;l=en).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In another tradition, Haumea was killed with a net by [Kaulu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaulu), a symbolic subjugation of nature by agriculture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12851" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3212" RevisionGUID="b70fecb7-dd49-4dba-a91c-8688cf2e121f" CreationDate="2017-12-18T23:16:41.067" UserId="614" Text="Story of a benevolent king (or queen?) who disguises himself among peasants and then reveals himself or is revealed as king and then one of the peasants with whom he interacts thanks the king for the greatest gift a king could give: the gift of himself (&quot;the gift of yourself&quot;), better than gold or something and then this somehow relates to Christianity (perhaps the story came after as a reference to Jesus).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any ideas please and thank you for the gift of yourself through time, effort, comments or answers? Merry Christmas, and happy holidays!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12852" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3212" RevisionGUID="b70fecb7-dd49-4dba-a91c-8688cf2e121f" CreationDate="2017-12-18T23:16:41.067" UserId="614" Text="Benevolent king gives greatest gift: yourself/himself" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12853" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3212" RevisionGUID="b70fecb7-dd49-4dba-a91c-8688cf2e121f" CreationDate="2017-12-18T23:16:41.067" UserId="614" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12860" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3207" RevisionGUID="0921b2c8-a4dd-462e-9aa6-c6a89f5a01ea" CreationDate="2017-12-21T20:57:47.253" UserId="2892" Comment="added 1123 characters in body" Text="I'm going to guess that the stories of toxicity of dragon meat is largely modern, as I can't think of stories from the traditional canons where this is a story element.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It may derive from the story of [Nessus the Centaur][1], Hercules and his wife Deianeira. The story can be found in Apollodorus, [(Book 2, Chapter 7, Sections 6 &amp; 7)][2], although the Hyginus is more specific:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Nessus, son of Ixion and Nubes, a centaur, was asked by Dejanira to carry her across the river Evenus, but as he was carrying her, in the very river he tried to ravish her. When Hercules came there, and Dejanira implored his aid, he pierced Nessus with his arrows. As he died, Nessus, knowing how poisonous the arrows were, since they had been dipped in the gall of the Lernaean Hydra, drew out some of his blood and gave it to Dejanira, telling her it was a love-charm. If she wanted her husband not to desert her, she should have his garments smeared with this blood. Dejanira, believing him, kept it carefully preserved.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Pseudo-Hyginus, [*Fabulae*, 34][3] (trans. Grant)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and the Ovid even moreso:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He shot an arrow through the centaur's back, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;so that the keen barb was exposed beyond&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;his bleeding breast. He tore it from both wounds,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;and life-blood spurted instantly, mixed with&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;the deadly poison of Lernaean hydra.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;This Nessus caught, and muttering, “I shall not&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;die unavenged”, he gave his tunic, soaked&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;with blood to Deianira as a gift;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;and said, “Keep this to strengthen waning love.”&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Ovid, [*Metamorphosis*, 9.98][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**WESTERN vs. EASTERN DRAGONS**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the west, dragons are associated with evil and fire, deriving from Greek myth and sagas such as the [Volsungs][5] and [Beowulf][6], and extended in [Tolkien][7].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the East, China in particular, dragons are symbols of good luck and associated with water.  (Often their role in the universal structure is to bring rain, the greatest boon to an agricultural society.  i.e. rain = good fortune).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The magical effects of dragon flesh or bones is a function of &quot;[Sympathetic Magic][8]&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is the idea the object are imbued with properties, and &quot;like begets like&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; If we analyse the principles of thought on which magic is based, they will probably be found to resolve themselves into two: first, that like produces like, or that an effect resembles its cause; and, second, that things which have once been in contact with each other continue to act on each other at a distance after the physical contact has been severed.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Frazer, [*The Golden Bough* III.1][8]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- In the west, eating dragon flesh would produce negative effects, mirroring the poisonous and destructive nature of dragons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- In the east, consuming dragon bones would produce positive effects, mirroring the dragons' association with good fortune.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;NOTE:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's slightly more complex in that, in the Volsungs, [tasting the dragon's blood grants Sigurd magical powers][9].  In this context, magical powers from the dragon transferred are to Sigurd. This still falls under the umbrella of Sympathetic Magic, but with a different meaning/expression. The interpretation may have something to do with the lack of overt Christian influence in the  Völsunga (compare to Beowulf) where the emphasis is on the power imbued in the blood, without moral judgement.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Offhand, I can't think of Chinese tales of dragon flesh being consumed, although there is a famous folktale of a dragon trapped in carp form, who is almost eaten--a perceptive scholar instead frees the magical carp and receives a boon.  However, the eating the flesh of the [Tang Priest][10] is a central device in [Journey to the West][11]. Again, here the magical flesh confers immorality in connection to the enlightened being incarnated in the priest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;DRAGON IN CHINESE CUISINE&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;As Semaphor so eruditely pointed out, there is at least one Chinese story of actual dragon meat being consumed.  [See comments].  There is a tradition in Chinese cuisine of foods conferring blessings, still quite popular in contemporary folk belief.  I came across this list of lucky New Year's foods: Noodles=happiness&amp;longevity; Dumplings=wealth; Tangyuan=family togetherness; Niangao: income/status;&#xD;&#xA;Oranges=fullness&amp;wealth; Fish=prosperity.  Fish is the flesh typically used for dragon, although lobster, prawns, abalone, etc. may be used, and the association with prosperity almost certainly relates to dragons as rain-bringers in an agricultural society. Dragon &amp; Phoenix still considered a special dish, not just because it's tasty, but because of the positive mythical connotations, and the good fortune they confer. (For those interested, there is a great scene in [Eat Drink Man Woman][12] involving &quot;[Joy Luck Dragon Phoenix][13]&quot;) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirt_of_Nessus#Mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D2%3Achapter%3D7%3Asection%3D6&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusFabulae1.html#34&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D98&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lsunga_saga&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf#Third_battle:_The_Dragon&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smaug&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.bartleby.com/196/5.html&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lsunga_saga#Sigurd_and_his_foster_family&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xuanzang_(Journey_to_the_West)&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_to_the_West&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eat_Drink_Man_Woman&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://www.script-o-rama.com/movie_scripts/e/eat-drink-man-woman-script.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12861" PostHistoryTypeId="36" PostId="3214" RevisionGUID="d524e4ba-3022-41f3-ac93-1b676c31c1f6" CreationDate="2017-12-23T01:03:25.940" UserId="-1" Comment="from https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/42521/how-did-odysseus-ship-wrecked-and-odysseus-himself-land-to-ogygia" />
  <row Id="12862" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3214" RevisionGUID="a07012c0-5169-4311-9275-bcde818b2567" CreationDate="2017-12-22T21:34:07.137" UserId="4572" UserDisplayName="MarkokraM" Text="I have tried to read Homer Odysseus and commentaries to find out details how did Odysseus shipwreck happen, how many men were involved and saved and so forth. It looks like the first book starts when Odysseus in already in the Ogygia island and information is scattered to several books. Is there a good summary giving this kind of information about this famous story?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12863" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3214" RevisionGUID="a07012c0-5169-4311-9275-bcde818b2567" CreationDate="2017-12-22T21:34:07.137" UserId="4572" UserDisplayName="MarkokraM" Text="How did Odysseus ship wrecked and Odysseus himself land to Ogygia?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12864" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3214" RevisionGUID="a07012c0-5169-4311-9275-bcde818b2567" CreationDate="2017-12-22T21:34:07.137" UserId="4572" UserDisplayName="MarkokraM" Text="|homer|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12865" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3214" RevisionGUID="bceffd94-4670-4f63-959b-d2c54a3cc661" CreationDate="2017-12-23T01:09:37.767" UserId="183" Comment="added 11 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="I have tried to read Homer's *Odyssey* and commentaries to find out details about how Odysseus's shipwreck happened, how many men were involved and saved and so forth. It looks like the first book starts when Odysseus was already in the Ogygia island, and information is scattered to several books. Is there a good summary giving this kind of information about this famous story?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12866" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3214" RevisionGUID="bceffd94-4670-4f63-959b-d2c54a3cc661" CreationDate="2017-12-23T01:09:37.767" UserId="183" Comment="added 11 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="How did Odysseus's ship get wrecked, and how did Odysseus himself land to Ogygia?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12867" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3214" RevisionGUID="bceffd94-4670-4f63-959b-d2c54a3cc661" CreationDate="2017-12-23T01:09:37.767" UserId="183" Comment="added 11 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|greek|odyssey|homer|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12872" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3216" RevisionGUID="9f91bb3c-e9cc-41b5-9d69-4ac7c614a9a2" CreationDate="2017-12-24T11:10:55.837" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="In many countries where snow falls there is a folk tradition of building snowmen. Almost always male, these temporary statues are usually 1-2 metres tall and made from a base of two or three large rolled-up snowballs, and during construction they are smoothed and added to, so that the resultant shape is roughly conical with a rounded top and often a concave midriff. Traditions include using a carrot for the nose and pieces of coal for the eyes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the origin of this tradition?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12873" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3216" RevisionGUID="9f91bb3c-e9cc-41b5-9d69-4ac7c614a9a2" CreationDate="2017-12-24T11:10:55.837" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="What are the origins of the snowman?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12874" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3216" RevisionGUID="9f91bb3c-e9cc-41b5-9d69-4ac7c614a9a2" CreationDate="2017-12-24T11:10:55.837" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12875" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3216" RevisionGUID="efe55bad-4cd2-41ea-99c5-3802b9b4058e" CreationDate="2017-12-24T11:22:02.830" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="added 18 characters in body" Text="In many countries where snow falls there is a folk tradition of building snowmen. Almost always male, these temporary statues are usually human in scale, standing 0.5 to 2 metres tall, and made from a base of two or three large rolled-up snowballs. During construction new snow is often added and smoothed, so that the resultant shape is roughly conical with a rounded top and often a concave midriff. Objects are added for the eyes, such as pieces of coal, the nose, often a carrot, and the mouth. The statues are left to melt, which in milder climates might take only a day or two and where winters are more severe can take months.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the origin of this tradition?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12876" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3216" RevisionGUID="e4fd1bf6-1a91-4a77-8af0-46aa0d07d801" CreationDate="2017-12-24T11:30:21.577" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="added 18 characters in body" Text="In many countries where snow falls there is a folk tradition of building snowmen. Almost always male, these temporary statues are usually human in scale, standing 0.5 to 2 metres tall, and made from a base of two or three large rolled-up snowballs. During construction additional snow is usually put on and smoothed, so that the resultant shape is roughly conical with a rounded top and often a concave midriff. Objects are commonly added, such as  pieces of coal to represent eyes, a carrot to represent a nose, and another item to represent a mouth. The statues are left to melt, which might take only a day or two or several months depending on whether the climate is mild or severe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the origin of this tradition?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12877" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3216" RevisionGUID="d91c21e8-4f72-469c-bdc1-d78a7adbeffd" CreationDate="2017-12-24T11:49:37.733" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="added 27 characters in body" Text="In many countries where snow falls there is a folk tradition of building snowmen. Almost always male, these temporary statues are usually human in scale, standing 0.5 to 2 metres tall, and made from a base of two or three large rolled-up snowballs. During construction additional snow is usually put on and smoothed, so that the resultant shape is roughly conical with a rounded top and often a concave midriff. Objects are commonly added, such as  pieces of coal to represent eyes, a carrot to represent a nose, another item to represent a mouth, and sometimes a hat and scarf and some objects to represent coat buttons. The statues are left to melt, which might take only a day or two or several months depending on whether the climate is mild or severe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the origin of this tradition?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12878" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3216" RevisionGUID="606f8b1c-607c-477c-9646-468290ff0cdc" CreationDate="2017-12-24T11:59:11.137" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="In many countries where snow falls there is a folk tradition of building snowmen. Almost always male, these temporary statues are usually human in scale, standing 0.5 to 2 metres tall, and made from a base of two or three large rolled-up snowballs. During construction additional snow is usually put on and smoothed, so that the resultant shape is roughly conical with a rounded top and often a concave midriff. Objects are commonly added, such as  pieces of coal to represent eyes, a carrot to represent a nose, another item to represent a mouth, and sometimes a hat and scarf and some objects to represent coat buttons. The statues are left to melt, which might take only a day or two or several months depending on whether the climate is mild or severe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What are the origins of this tradition?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12879" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3216" RevisionGUID="64780c80-691a-4b2c-85ff-19cf5067ccc6" CreationDate="2017-12-24T12:15:05.227" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="deleted 25 characters in body" Text="In many countries where snow falls there is a folk tradition of building snowmen. Almost always male, these temporary statues are usually human in scale, standing 0.5 to 2 metres tall, and made from a base of two or three large rolled-up snowballs. During construction additional snow is often put on and smoothed, so that the resultant shape is roughly conical with a rounded top and often a concave midriff. Objects are commonly added, such as  pieces of coal to represent eyes, a carrot for a nose, another item for a mouth, and sometimes a hat and scarf and objects to represent coat buttons. The statues are left to melt, which might take only a day or two or several months depending on whether the climate is mild or severe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What are the origins of this tradition?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12880" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3217" RevisionGUID="66c166a4-3964-46f3-8252-a8f445f74a84" CreationDate="2017-12-24T17:11:03.840" UserId="3741" Text="&gt; snowmen were a phenomenon in the Middle Ages, built with great skill and thought. At a time of limited means of expression, snow was like free art supplies dropped from the sky. It was a popular activity for couples to stroll through town to view the temporary works of chilly art. Some were created by famous artists, including a 19-year-old Michelangelo, who in 1494 was commissioned by the ruler of Florence, Italy, to sculpt a snowman in his mansion’s courtyard.&#xA;&#xA;So the snowman was essentially a form of sculpting that people could do for free. [The article][1], however, does not seem to have made clear what the first snowman was because nobody knows. It seems that they are simply a form of expression that everyone could take part in easily. They saw their chance to express themselves for free in an era where it was hard to do so, and took it, making snowmen. The traditions continued on years later, all the way to the present day.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.rd.com/culture/history-of-the-snowman/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12881" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3216" RevisionGUID="182edf5f-9acc-4042-aaa7-c72ee54023fb" CreationDate="2017-12-24T18:28:16.593" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="added 60 characters in body" Text="In many countries where snow falls there is a folk tradition of building snowmen. Almost always male, these temporary statues are usually human in scale, standing 0.5 to 2 metres tall, and made from a base of two or three large rolled-up snowballs. During construction additional snow is often put on and smoothed, so that the resultant shape is roughly conical with a rounded top, with a more gently rounded midriff which may remain concave or be bulked out to be convex. Objects are commonly added, such as pieces of coal to represent eyes, a carrot for a nose, another item for a mouth, and sometimes a hat and scarf and items to represent coat buttons. The statues are left to melt, which might take only a day or two or several months depending on whether the climate is mild or severe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What are the origins of this tradition?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12882" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1886" RevisionGUID="b389c381-1acc-4ff9-81ef-b35b60be87c4" CreationDate="2017-12-24T18:53:25.070" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="12883" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3218" RevisionGUID="f256dbac-a2ea-4189-b715-8deb682f2531" CreationDate="2017-12-24T23:36:45.880" UserId="4556" Text="Who does anyone know how it look up some thing calburn was what Excalibur was made to be first then when Arthur broke it Merlin took it to the lady on the lake to make it whole again so calburn got refoged onto Excalibur I found this our by reading the time line story of Arthur Pentagon if any of you do the same you will see it and there is a blade that is excalburs dark almost evil equal made by those who wish to see the blade have a counter a way to handle the fabled sword Excalibur. This is the truth you just have to look for it." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12884" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2999" RevisionGUID="50f62894-4357-4857-8d04-2d5cf438aa3f" CreationDate="2017-12-25T13:06:41.133" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="12885" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3219" RevisionGUID="0d756fcc-b977-4762-ab70-bdc85f2f76e0" CreationDate="2017-12-25T16:06:11.387" UserId="4559" Text="Yes, djinn and this huge number of descriptions of them existed long before Mohammad so he had a lot of choice in saying his take on the matter. These creatures, however, were not mentioned in the Bible- not in the Torah, the Zabur or the injil .. nor elsewhere in the Tenack.  And even had the Bible been translated into Arabic before the coming of Mohammad, there was no such description or name &quot;djinn&quot; in either Hebrew or Greek. Actually it is clear that the idea of djinn is strictly PAGAN in nature and has nothing o do with the only God Who had already given His teaching on the matter in previous scriptures. The closest match is that there were obedient angels who remain His servants and the fallen angels, the servants of Shaitan&#xD;&#xA; For your reference and research, please see:Revelations 12:4; 2 Peter 2:4; Isaiah 14:12 ... or just look this all up on the internet... this site is petty good- https://www.thoughtco.com/who-are-fallen-angels-demons-123840 &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These &quot;djinn ... are very bad  ..&#xD;&#xA; keep them away by asking God's intervention" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12886" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3219" RevisionGUID="89fa205b-a06d-4a37-afda-aa5a6ac656a8" CreationDate="2017-12-25T16:32:30.483" UserId="4559" Comment="corrected spelling, additional sentence" Text="Yes, djinn and this huge number of descriptions of them existed long before Mohammad so he had a lot of choice in saying his take on the matter. These creatures, however, were not mentioned in the Bible- not in the Torah, the Zabur or the injil .. nor elsewhere in the Tanakh.  And even had the Bible been translated into Arabic before the coming of Mohammad, there was no such description or name &quot;djinn&quot; in either Hebrew or Greek. Actually it is clear that the idea of djinn is strictly PAGAN in nature and has nothing to do with the only God Who had already given His teaching on the matter in previous scriptures. The closest match is that there were obedient angels who remain His servants and the fallen angels, the servants of Shaitan&#xD;&#xA; For your reference and research, please see:Revelations 12:4; 2 Peter 2:4; Isaiah 14:12 ... or just look this all up on the internet... this site is petty good- https://www.thoughtco.com/who-are-fallen-angels-demons-123840 &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One last point .... No. the Bible had not been translated into Arabic before the coming of Islam&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These &quot;djinn ... are very bad  ..&#xD;&#xA; keep them away by asking God's intervention" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12887" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3220" RevisionGUID="1d80eae8-d817-4fb3-82be-69c45c2d9021" CreationDate="2017-12-26T17:12:57.940" UserId="4561" Text="The Self is the sum-total of various psychological components, housed in a physical body. And as a person is more than just a body, the Self is more than a house -- it is a Home.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, the Self is usually represented symbolically by some residential structure. Thus the psychological significance of repetitive dreams featuring houses. They represent the psyche seeking to identify with its true Self.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore in dreams or stories, abodes are always very significant, and examples might be:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Castle&#xD;&#xA;Cottage&#xD;&#xA;Hut&#xD;&#xA;Middle-class abode&#xD;&#xA;Haunted Mansion&#xD;&#xA;Manor House&#xD;&#xA;Farmhouse&#xD;&#xA;Tent&#xD;&#xA;Mountain&#xD;&#xA;Wood&#xD;&#xA;River&#xD;&#xA;Homelessness&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But iconic forms of houses represent more than just structures (physical bodies), whether grand or humble. Facade alone is in the realm of persona, which is just one component of the Self. And many houses are not homes. Yet the Home / Self (or lack thereof) is what is really being represented by the various types of abodes in mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus there is the tacit understanding in tales such as the story of Cinderella, that the transformation from subjugation (immaturity) to freedom and happiness (maturity and fulfillment) is strongly associated with a move to a better home (i.e. in Cinderella's case, the castle). Of course, in order to make that transition, Cinderella and the Prince (anima + animus or passive + active components of the psyche) have to find and fall in love with one another.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of course, very materialistically minded people don't fully understand the psychological significance of such myths, placing all the importance on being glamorous, marrying up, and taking out mortgages. In other words, their focus is on the facade, and they have a very difficult time making any house (no matter how grand or humble) -- a Home." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12888" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3218" RevisionGUID="49a77dd8-e151-4b5a-add2-38dc5718d943" CreationDate="2017-12-26T22:33:09.693" UserId="173" Comment="Removed a rant about people not researching and fixed some spelling" Text="Caliburn was what Excalibur was made to be first, then when Arthur broke it, Merlin took it to the Lady of the Lake to make it whole again. So Caliburn got reforged into Excalibur. I found this out by reading the *Timeline Story of Arthur Pendragon*. If any of you do the same, you will see this, and that there is a blade that is Excalibur's dark — almost evil — equal made by those who wish to see the blade have a counter, a way to handle the fabled sword Excalibur." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12889" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3218" RevisionGUID="49a77dd8-e151-4b5a-add2-38dc5718d943" CreationDate="2017-12-26T22:33:09.693" Comment="Proposed by 173 approved by 2774, 183 edit id of 516" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12890" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2999" RevisionGUID="4249a811-623c-4aff-8984-dd84a17565ce" CreationDate="2017-12-26T23:26:52.703" UserId="4093" Comment="added 1201 characters in body" Text="According to psychologist Carl Jung, there are divisions into one's mind. The &quot;Self&quot; (often described as &quot;Higher-Self&quot; or &quot;Soul&quot;) is what hold all of those divisions together (or try to). It is what gives balance and stability of who you *truly* are or can be.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![1][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The hero archetype is the personification of the ego** (I won't explain it here, it would be a huge explanation.). In Campbell's and Vogler's writings, there are mentions about the &quot;Shadow&quot; as well. It is portrayed as an antagonist to the hero, but not necessarily the villain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This &quot;ego-driven&quot; journey is about proving something to the world. The Hero has something that is not well acepted in his society and he has to left in order to mature himself for then he can return renewed and stronger. They often want save the world aganist what he (or his society) considered to be evil, but there are other people on the other side that have their own heroes. So we got ourselves a bunch of blue and red heroes fighting aganist each other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**There isn't, a specific journey for the Self,** which is the central part of the human's psyche. We tend to forget it in our polarized society as we need it more than ever.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**What journeys and/or archetypes can be told as a journey/archetype for the &quot;Self?&quot;**&#xD;&#xA;-&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm not talking about the &quot;I'am&quot; the &quot;me&quot; but the psycholical concept of the Self. If You are not familiar with it, here are some brief explanations:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][5]][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you want more information, the key-words are: Self, Soul (in psychology), Ego, Carl Jung&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/xcmlj.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/tKf2U.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/8UEhh.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/5WZke.png&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/7xtUx.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12891" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2999" RevisionGUID="4249a811-623c-4aff-8984-dd84a17565ce" CreationDate="2017-12-26T23:26:52.703" UserId="4093" Comment="added 1201 characters in body" Text="If the Hero is Ego-driven, but what is the Self/Soul?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12892" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3221" RevisionGUID="93db0444-e766-4a15-b1c0-6041090de44e" CreationDate="2017-12-27T06:35:29.303" UserId="4564" Text="It's usual to recall that the name Minotaur comes from the name of the king Minos and from the animal *Tauros* and that makes sense to me, however going a little farther I found the name &quot;Centaur&quot; or &quot;Kentauros&quot; which means &quot;bull slayer&quot;(or something close to that) but I couldn't find any reference to confirm they have such &quot;fame&quot; or to justify their name; Why are they called so?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12893" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3221" RevisionGUID="93db0444-e766-4a15-b1c0-6041090de44e" CreationDate="2017-12-27T06:35:29.303" UserId="4564" Text="Regarding Centaur's myth and etymology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12894" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3221" RevisionGUID="93db0444-e766-4a15-b1c0-6041090de44e" CreationDate="2017-12-27T06:35:29.303" UserId="4564" Text="|mythical-creatures|etymology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12895" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3222" RevisionGUID="6b9bb8a6-b58c-44f3-9ed7-d08a5f9a2198" CreationDate="2017-12-27T10:24:29.653" UserId="4565" Text="This is detailed in book 12 of the Odyssey. Odysseus' crew disobeyed his (and the gods') command not to eat the cattle of Helios, which led to Helios' and Zeus' displeasure. So Zeus sends a storm destroying the survivors, as they had just made it through Scylla and Charybdis. Odysseus is swept back to the latter, and sort of just floats on to Ogygia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can read the passage yourself on [Theoi](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HomerOdyssey12.html). Start from line 374." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12896" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3202" RevisionGUID="b1079209-9ddb-42f6-9730-75b9dc3b05cc" CreationDate="2017-12-27T18:00:01.660" UserId="4524" Comment="Assisted the grammar through deleting" Text="- [Tengu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tengu) (天狗)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A lot of my knowledge about them comes from the oral tradition, but the Wiki makes an interesting point that they were originally regarded as demons in the Buddhist context.  In the Shinto contexts, they were simply [yōkai][1] (妖怪).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tengu are often thought of as a type of forest goblin, and may be benefactors or adversaries, which is typical of tricksters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tengu are known for their long noses and, often, their martial skills, particularly with the sword.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y%C5%8Dkai" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12897" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3202" RevisionGUID="b1079209-9ddb-42f6-9730-75b9dc3b05cc" CreationDate="2017-12-27T18:00:01.660" Comment="Proposed by 4524 approved by 2774, 398 edit id of 517" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12900" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3223" RevisionGUID="6f561ded-be7e-4a55-a1db-6ffbac0a3fb9" CreationDate="2017-12-28T01:06:10.757" UserId="3177" Text="It it true, that most of early arthurian books were written outside Britain, mostly in France? Why?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a proof, here is quote from William Caxton's preface to Le Morte d'Arthur, published in 1485:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For in all places, Christian and heathen, he is reputed and taken for one of the nine worthy, and the first of the three Christian men. And also, he is more spoken of beyond the sea, more books made of his noble acts, than there be in England, as well in Dutch, Italian, Spanish, and Greekish, as in French. And yet of record remain in witness of him in Wales, in the town of Camelot, the great stones and the marvellous works of iron lying under the ground, and royal vaults, which divers now living have seen. Wherefore it is a marvel why he is no more renowned in his own country, save only it accordeth to the Word of God, which saith that no man is accepted for a prophet in his own country." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12901" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3223" RevisionGUID="6f561ded-be7e-4a55-a1db-6ffbac0a3fb9" CreationDate="2017-12-28T01:06:10.757" UserId="3177" Text="Arthurian legend English and French sources" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12902" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3223" RevisionGUID="6f561ded-be7e-4a55-a1db-6ffbac0a3fb9" CreationDate="2017-12-28T01:06:10.757" UserId="3177" Text="|arthurian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12903" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3223" RevisionGUID="12d2a24d-cdde-4cd4-a9ee-915151b0578f" CreationDate="2017-12-28T01:27:43.020" UserId="3177" Comment="edited body" Text="Is it true, that most of early arthurian books were written outside Britain, mostly in France? Why?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a proof, here is quote from William Caxton's preface to Le Morte d'Arthur, published in 1485:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For in all places, Christian and heathen, he is reputed and taken for one of the nine worthy, and the first of the three Christian men. And also, he is more spoken of beyond the sea, more books made of his noble acts, than there be in England, as well in Dutch, Italian, Spanish, and Greekish, as in French. And yet of record remain in witness of him in Wales, in the town of Camelot, the great stones and the marvellous works of iron lying under the ground, and royal vaults, which divers now living have seen. Wherefore it is a marvel why he is no more renowned in his own country, save only it accordeth to the Word of God, which saith that no man is accepted for a prophet in his own country." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12904" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3224" RevisionGUID="f12856eb-4cb3-4f2c-b1c4-7626e3d497bf" CreationDate="2017-12-28T02:48:59.030" UserId="3302" Text="So I recently saw the August 21 solar eclipse.  I was told I was being &quot;new age&quot; by viewing it.  Is there any evidence of &quot;new age&quot; views worshiping it.  I have asked a similar [question here](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2828/are-there-any-stories-that-present-solar-eclipses-as-a-good-sign).  There is no site that I thought this question had a perfect fit, but this site seemed the closest." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12905" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3224" RevisionGUID="f12856eb-4cb3-4f2c-b1c4-7626e3d497bf" CreationDate="2017-12-28T02:48:59.030" UserId="3302" Text="Have any cults worshiped solar eclipses?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12906" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3224" RevisionGUID="f12856eb-4cb3-4f2c-b1c4-7626e3d497bf" CreationDate="2017-12-28T02:48:59.030" UserId="3302" Text="|eclipse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12907" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3225" RevisionGUID="079a6d51-a7ce-4747-8e0e-ec684215785e" CreationDate="2017-12-28T02:53:24.157" UserId="4568" Text="Actually,I think he died in battle. If the human heart is damaged,in Ancient Egyptian culture,it had to be replaced with what was called a heart scarab which would replace the heart if it was damaged. If the lungs were left behind,it's probably so he can breathe in the afterlife or like the comment above,it could've been a mistake" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12908" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3224" RevisionGUID="9fdebc02-b9d7-49a4-8409-ca378da50376" CreationDate="2017-12-28T03:02:32.233" UserId="3302" Comment="edited title" Text="Have any &quot;New Age movements&quot; worshiped solar eclipses?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12909" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3224" RevisionGUID="9fdebc02-b9d7-49a4-8409-ca378da50376" CreationDate="2017-12-28T03:02:32.233" UserId="3302" Comment="edited title" Text="So I recently saw the August 21 solar eclipse.  I was told I was being &quot;new age&quot; by viewing it.  Is there any evidence of &quot;new age&quot; views worshiping it?  I have asked a similar [question here](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2828/are-there-any-stories-that-present-solar-eclipses-as-a-good-sign).  There is no site that I thought this question had a perfect fit, but this site seemed the closest." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12910" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3224" RevisionGUID="850ea93b-6bfd-4cc4-8340-7dcdfade63f2" CreationDate="2017-12-28T09:11:40.250" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="|eclipse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12911" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3223" RevisionGUID="59c80397-dd5b-41db-8378-f5af9c6db460" CreationDate="2017-12-28T09:12:40.880" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="|arthurian|british|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12912" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3223" RevisionGUID="a38cc477-52d9-4475-b764-1848b29f1172" CreationDate="2017-12-28T09:21:59.013" UserId="108" Comment="edited body" Text="Is it true, that most of early Arthurian books were written outside Britain, mostly in France? Why?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a proof, here is quote from William Caxton's preface to Le Morte d'Arthur, published in 1485:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For in all places, Christian and heathen, he is reputed and taken for one of the nine worthy, and the first of the three Christian men. And also, he is more spoken of beyond the sea, more books made of his noble acts, than there be in England, as well in Dutch, Italian, Spanish, and Greekish, as in French. And yet of record remain in witness of him in Wales, in the town of Camelot, the great stones and the marvellous works of iron lying under the ground, and royal vaults, which divers now living have seen. Wherefore it is a marvel why he is no more renowned in his own country, save only it accordeth to the Word of God, which saith that no man is accepted for a prophet in his own country." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12913" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3226" RevisionGUID="59358316-cc06-42e2-b554-327c2860f46a" CreationDate="2017-12-28T10:28:41.477" UserId="108" Text="Well, yes and no.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Arthurian texts are divided into two groups: pre-Galfridian and Galfridian. The first category is older, dating at least to the [*Historia Brittonum*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_Brittonum), written in Wales in the early 9th century. By this point most of Britain had been [conquered by the Anglo-Saxons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_settlement_of_Britain), with the [Brittonic people](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_Britons) largely pushed into Wales or migrated to [Armorica](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armorica). Consequently, while many of the early Arthurian sources were Welsh in origin, there is also a number of Breton works referencing him. For example, the [*Legenda Sancti Goeznovii*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goeznovius#Legenda_Sancti_Goeznovii) which praised Arthur as the saviour of the Britons, and the [*Vita Sancti Paternus*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padarn#Padarn_and_Arthur) which described Arthur as the local tyrant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Despite this, much of the pre-Galfridian Arthurian sources were undoubtedly from Britain. Moreover, it would be anachronistic to refer to Breton ones as &quot;written in France&quot;. Brittany (&quot;Little Britain&quot;, as Armorica was renamed into by her new inhabitants) was first a mesh of independent petty Breton kingdoms and later an [independent kingdom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Brittany) during this period. After an occupation by Viking Normans, it became the independent [Duchy of Brittany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Brittany) that resisted France with varying successes until the 1500s.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Arthurian legends did not become really popularised until [Geoffrey of Monmouth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_of_Monmouth) wrote his [*Historia Regum Britanniae](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_Regum_Britanniae) around 1138. This was likely also written in [Wales](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monmouth), but by this point the culturally French Normans had conquered England, and the region around Monmouth was ruled by their Breton allies. Geoffrey himself may have been a member of the new ethnically Breton, French-speaking elite. He drew heavily upon the earlier *Historia Brittonum*, but weaved a fantastical story that proved to be immensely popular.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Geoffrey's success helped sparked a number of Arthurian works, collectively known as Galfridian texts because of his considerable influence. This result in the emergence of the [Matter of Britain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_of_Britain) - one of the three great cycles of Medieval French literature. These formed the basis of the Arthurian legends **as we know them today**, and many were indeed written in France.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nonetheless, many of these works were still produced in Britain, such as Geoffrey's aforementioned seminal work, albeit by French-speaking elites. For example [*Lanval*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanval), an Arthurian [lay](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton_lai) by [Maried de France](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_de_France) was most likely written in England like her other works." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12914" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3226" RevisionGUID="6e5aac6d-67aa-4239-aab0-d14da4561419" CreationDate="2017-12-28T10:34:19.240" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="Well, yes and no.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Arthurian texts are divided into two groups: pre-Galfridian and Galfridian. The first category is older, dating at least to the [*Historia Brittonum*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_Brittonum), written in Wales in the early 9th century. By this point most of Britain had been [conquered by the Anglo-Saxons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_settlement_of_Britain), with the [Brittonic people](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_Britons) largely pushed into Wales or migrated to [Armorica](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armorica). Consequently, while many of the early Arthurian sources were Welsh in origin, there is also a number of Breton works referencing him. For example, the [*Legenda Sancti Goeznovii*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goeznovius#Legenda_Sancti_Goeznovii) which praised Arthur as the saviour of the Britons, and the [*Vita Sancti Paternus*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padarn#Padarn_and_Arthur) which described Arthur as the local tyrant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Despite this, much of the pre-Galfridian Arthurian sources were undoubtedly from Britain. Moreover, it would be anachronistic to refer to Breton ones as &quot;written in France&quot;. Brittany (&quot;Little Britain&quot;, as Armorica was renamed into by her new inhabitants) was first a mesh of independent petty Breton kingdoms and later an [independent kingdom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Brittany) during this period. After an occupation by Viking Normans, it became the independent [Duchy of Brittany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Brittany) that resisted France with varying successes until the 1500s.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Arthurian legends did not become really popularised until [Geoffrey of Monmouth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_of_Monmouth) wrote his [*Historia Regum Britanniae](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_Regum_Britanniae) around 1138. This was likely also written in [Wales](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monmouth), but by this point the culturally French Normans had conquered England, and the region around Monmouth was ruled by their Breton allies. Geoffrey himself may have been a member of the new ethnically Breton, French-speaking elite. He drew heavily upon the earlier *Historia Brittonum*, but weaved a fantastical story that proved to be immensely popular.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Geoffrey's success helped sparked a number of Arthurian works, collectively known as Galfridian texts because of his considerable influence. The result is the emergence of the [Matter of Britain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_of_Britain) - one of the three great cycles of Medieval French literature. These formed the basis of the Arthurian legends **as we know them today**, and many were indeed written in France.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nonetheless, many of these works were still produced in Britain, such as Geoffrey's aforementioned seminal work, albeit by French-speaking elites. For example [*Lanval*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanval), an Arthurian [lay](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton_lai) by [Maried de France](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_de_France) which, like the rest of her works, was most likely written in England." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12915" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3227" RevisionGUID="0e73da2f-1105-4850-be9f-ba221c6c23e0" CreationDate="2017-12-29T00:55:01.920" UserId="4573" Text="Our modern representations of imagination usually involve things being emitted from or contained within our heads. (Thought bubbles, for example, and the many pieces of &quot;imagination&quot; clip-art where things are exploding out the back of people's minds.) This fits our modern understanding of our internal worlds as a product of our brains, which are located in our heads. I might hazard a guess that, since our eyes are also located on our heads, historical pictures of imagination might involve an analogy to vision and end up in the same place.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, has the head always been the seat of the mind's eye? Are/were there any cultures that put it elsewhere? This is a very broad question that could potentially involve any culture's mythology, so I guess any concrete example of a story where the mind's eye was placed elsewhere (or the statement that there are none, if that's the case) would constitute an answer." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12916" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3227" RevisionGUID="0e73da2f-1105-4850-be9f-ba221c6c23e0" CreationDate="2017-12-29T00:55:01.920" UserId="4573" Text="Has the mind's eye always been seen as residing in the head?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12917" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3227" RevisionGUID="0e73da2f-1105-4850-be9f-ba221c6c23e0" CreationDate="2017-12-29T00:55:01.920" UserId="4573" Text="|metaphors|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12918" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3228" RevisionGUID="1a728f22-64c7-4030-8ca6-9651a82388ed" CreationDate="2017-12-29T11:21:11.703" UserId="873" Text="I once heard of an attitude to interpreting religious scripture that goes roughly as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The scripture was made such that it will always produce the correct ethics, guidance, and similar when taken as it is in the reader’s context, i.e., their society, technology, and language.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; With other words: The scripture was made with foresight to adapt to changes in society, technology, and language.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For example, if the meaning and societal status of *marriage* changed over the centuries, and thus some action that was unethical according to the scripture a few centuries ago has become ethically acceptable nowadays, this is completely intentional.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you so wish, this is [The Death of the Author](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author) applied to religious scripture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am looking for further references on this, but my Internet searches so far yielded nothing. Thus I am asking:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Is there any name for this kind of belief?&#xD;&#xA;* Are there any religious movements that believe in this concept (or something similar)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12919" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3228" RevisionGUID="1a728f22-64c7-4030-8ca6-9651a82388ed" CreationDate="2017-12-29T11:21:11.703" UserId="873" Text="The concept that scripture is made to adapt to changes of society, technology, and language" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12920" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3228" RevisionGUID="1a728f22-64c7-4030-8ca6-9651a82388ed" CreationDate="2017-12-29T11:21:11.703" UserId="873" Text="|comparative|reference-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12925" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3230" RevisionGUID="a52629a7-c949-4d03-92a4-5f965e98796c" CreationDate="2017-12-29T22:31:25.897" UserId="2892" Text="This fall under the the general field of [Hermeneutics][1].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hermeneutics is the theory and methodology of interpretation, especially the interpretation of biblical texts, wisdom literature, and philosophical texts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This can be applied to any text, and even into non-textual forms (visual media, such as movies.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Essentially, it's the idea that content can have different meanings over time, depending on the reader's frame of reference (context).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;Just for Fun: It's worth checking out Jorge Luis Borges' *[Pierre Menard, Author of the Quixote][2]*. [[PDF][3]]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutics&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Menard,_Author_of_the_Quixote&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://hispanlit.qwriting.qc.cuny.edu/files/2011/06/Borges-Pierre-Menard.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12926" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3228" RevisionGUID="610c44d0-6387-422b-ad72-bcd7055719ed" CreationDate="2017-12-29T22:31:57.790" UserId="2892" Comment="edited tags" Text="|comparative|reference-request|terminology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12927" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3231" RevisionGUID="62b2c796-c5b8-4018-bfbb-94b4bb0c292f" CreationDate="2017-12-29T22:35:10.730" UserId="2892" Comment="added 39 characters in body" Text="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12928" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3231" RevisionGUID="62b2c796-c5b8-4018-bfbb-94b4bb0c292f" CreationDate="2017-12-29T22:35:10.730" UserId="2892" Comment="added 39 characters in body" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12929" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3232" RevisionGUID="1793e3e5-a381-4d49-b6b7-247449ae6fd1" CreationDate="2017-12-29T22:35:10.730" UserId="2892" Comment="added 25 characters in body" Text="Use for terminology related to the study of mythology.  &quot;Syncretism&quot;, &quot;Euhemerism&quot;, &quot;Archetypes&quot;, &quot;Polytheism&quot;, &quot;Animism&quot;, etc." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12930" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3232" RevisionGUID="1793e3e5-a381-4d49-b6b7-247449ae6fd1" CreationDate="2017-12-29T22:35:10.730" UserId="2892" Comment="added 25 characters in body" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12931" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3230" RevisionGUID="947fa390-0eaa-46ab-bb72-aa50dad97f7e" CreationDate="2017-12-29T22:39:30.273" UserId="2892" Comment="added 205 characters in body" Text="This fall under the the general field of [Hermeneutics][1].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hermeneutics is the theory and methodology of interpretation, especially the interpretation of biblical texts, wisdom literature, and philosophical texts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This can be applied to any text, and even into non-textual forms (visual media, such as movies.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Essentially, it's the idea that content can have different meanings over time, depending on the reader's frame of reference (context).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It has been proposed that longevity of a text may be a function of the capacity of the text for renewed interpretation, keeping such texts relevant as conditions and understanding of the world change. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;Just for Fun: It's worth checking out Jorge Luis Borges' *[Pierre Menard, Author of the Quixote][2]*. [[PDF][3]]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutics&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Menard,_Author_of_the_Quixote&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://hispanlit.qwriting.qc.cuny.edu/files/2011/06/Borges-Pierre-Menard.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12932" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3233" RevisionGUID="2975602d-28b0-42f8-8656-0424e638eeb1" CreationDate="2017-12-30T22:24:43.767" UserId="4142" Text="Questions about etymology most often lead to literature in various languages. The wikipedia article mentions the (more or less) established view but for lack of translations it appears as unrealiable, coming through a mention of R. Graves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nineteenth c. philology already proposed that Centaurs are related to the Indic 'Ghandarva' as the phonetic transform is obvious. In 1883 Elard Meyer published a study *Gandharven-Kentauren* and half a century later Georges Dumezil published his book *Le problème des Centaures* (1929), a rather definitive treatment. He paid more attention to the Avestan &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/gandareba-&quot;&gt;gandareba&lt;/a&gt;. Scholars are unanimously dismissive of Palephatus and his folk etymology and speculating on the Proto IndoEuropean root of the word is not more acceptable. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The mythic core, according to Dumezil, pertains to appearing in disguise, something done during a ritual from the winter months. His thesis makes inessential the image &quot;horse +man&quot; which is usually taken to be *the* meaning of the word. Visual variations of this theme are collected in P. Baur *Centaurs in Ancient Art* (1912)&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12933" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2853" RevisionGUID="bd0d151e-b0ed-4c57-8ed6-604b7cae8c14" CreationDate="2017-12-31T01:24:03.930" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="12936" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3235" RevisionGUID="0407e4ca-8a11-4430-b63a-7e6f879fc97f" CreationDate="2018-01-01T16:18:27.720" UserId="1241" Text="Bob Eckstein is the author of a the book The History of the Snowman. In the book, he says that the first documentation of a snowman that he found was in 1380 in an illuminated manuscript, where he also notes building a snowman was a popular form of entertainment in the Middle Ages. The building of snowmen certainly began long before the 14th century. Both children and adults used the free gift of snow to express their ideas each according to their abilities in snow.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Snowman with charred backside in a 14th-century Book of Hours (via Koninklijke Bibliotheek)][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Snowman with charred backside in a 14th-century Book of Hours (via Koninklijke Bibliotheek)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Early snowman documentation has been discovered as far back as the Middle Ages, but we must assume that humans, creative beings that they are, have taken advantage of the icy materials that fall from the sky ever since winter and mankind have mutually existed. Bob Eckstein, author of [The History of the Snowman][2], found the snowman’s earliest known  depiction in an illuminated manuscript of the Book of Hours from 1380 in the Koninkijke Bibliotheek in The Hague, Netherlands (shown above).&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the Middle Ages, building snowmen was a way for a community to find the silver lining in a horribly oppressive winter rife with starvation, poverty, and other life-threatening conditions. In 1511, the townspeople of Brussels banded together to construct over 100 snowmen in a public art installation known as the Miracle of 1511. This event was uncovered by Eckstein in his The History of the Snowman book. - [Winter’s Effigies: The Deviant History of the Snowman][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![The Snowman Trick (1950), illustration by Luke Limner, Esq. (via Abaculi)][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Snowman Trick (1950), illustration by Luke Limner, Esq. (via Abaculi)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The snowman’s place in the traditional Christmas canon of jolly holiday diversions — along with ice-skating and horse-drawn sleighs — gained a higher status in the early Victorian era, when Prince Albert thrust his penchant for German holiday fun onto England. Santa Claus and the snowman became ubiquitous icons who soared hand-in-hand o’er the land of commodified Christmas kitsch. - [Winter’s Effigies: The Deviant History of the Snowman][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/O8dyW.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.bobeckstein.com/publSnowman,%20found%20the%20snowman%E2%80%99s%20earliest%20knownic/Snowman.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/winters-effigies-the-deviant-history-of-the-snowman&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/HENnV.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12937" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3217" RevisionGUID="8e418d03-17f9-45ca-8b1b-b97f0aeabd51" CreationDate="2018-01-01T16:53:44.370" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved  spelling and grammar." Text="&gt; Snowmen were a phenomenon in the Middle Ages, built with great skill and thought. At a time of limited means of expression, snow was like free art supplies dropped from the sky. It was a popular activity for couples to stroll through town to view the temporary works of chilly art. Some were created by famous artists, including a 19-year-old Michelangelo, who in 1494 was commissioned by the ruler of Florence, Italy, to sculpt a snowman in his mansion’s courtyard.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the snowman was essentially a form of sculpting that people could do for free. [The article][1], however, does not seem to have made clear what the first snowman was because nobody knows. It seems that they are simply a form of expression that everyone could take part in easily. They saw their chance to express themselves for free in an era where it was hard to do so, and took it, making snowmen. The traditions continued on years later, all the way to the present day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.rd.com/culture/history-of-the-snowman/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12938" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3236" RevisionGUID="6bec69ed-8e22-4eeb-9082-2552012be7fa" CreationDate="2018-01-01T17:55:51.580" UserId="4561" Text="&gt; Pre-19th century&#xD;&#xA;According to H. Siiger, the Yeti was a part of the pre-Buddhist beliefs of several Himalayan people. He was told that the Lepcha people worshipped a &quot;Glacier Being&quot; as a God of the Hunt.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeti&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We mustn't forget Yeti, the Abominable Snowman. There seems to be some connection, suggesting the legends may be even older and more global.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It also reminds me of the legends of the Green Man of the wood, as both are &quot;wild men&quot;." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12939" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3237" RevisionGUID="d7a4245b-eb59-44cc-a264-21fe389de455" CreationDate="2018-01-01T23:54:54.690" UserId="4271" Text="Warning- Extremely deep in Greek/Roman myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Virgin of Cumaean, or the Cumaean Sybil, was a priestess with the gift of prophecy. She would write her prophecies on oak leaves an arrange them. But, if the wind blew them out of order, she did not put them back together.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On day, Apollo came down, declared his love and offered her a gift, in exchange for her virginity. She picked up a pile of sand, and asked for the years of the gains of sand she held. Apollo complied, but later, the Cumaean kept her virginity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She kept the long life she asked for and the power of prophecy. But, Apollo did nothing to keep her beautiful through her long life. Her body withered, and eventually made her way into the Underworld, still living.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Troy was sacked, Aeneas escaped. On his journey, he met the Cumaean Sybil, and delivered her back to the world of the living.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She is said to have lived a thousand years. As she withered, she became so small, she was eventually kept in a jar(I know not who) until only her voice remained.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is the the Virgin of Cumaean known by any name other then her title?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12940" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3237" RevisionGUID="d7a4245b-eb59-44cc-a264-21fe389de455" CreationDate="2018-01-01T23:54:54.690" UserId="4271" Text="Is the Virgin of Cumaean known by any other name?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12941" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3237" RevisionGUID="d7a4245b-eb59-44cc-a264-21fe389de455" CreationDate="2018-01-01T23:54:54.690" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|roman|trojan-war|virgil|ovid|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12942" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3236" RevisionGUID="50444534-e8d4-476b-a479-5c5a11214ac8" CreationDate="2018-01-02T01:08:28.207" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved formatting." Text="&gt; Pre-19th century&#xD;&#xA;According to H. Siiger, the Yeti was a part of the pre-Buddhist beliefs of several Himalayan people. He was told that the Lepcha people worshipped a &quot;Glacier Being&quot; as a God of the Hunt.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Yeti (&quot;Abominable Snowman&quot;) Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeti)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We mustn't forget Yeti, the Abominable Snowman. There seems to be some connection, suggesting the legends may be even older and more global.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It also reminds me of the legends of the Green Man of the wood, as both are &quot;wild men&quot;." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12943" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3238" RevisionGUID="3467ab01-1ac1-4c10-8747-3cfff1f54359" CreationDate="2018-01-02T03:08:10.127" UserId="4561" Text="https://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-Fairy-Tales-Antique-Illustrated-Japan-Legends-14-1898-Hasegawa-Stories-/232065349086&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have often seen these kinds of antique Japanese fairy tale picture books, often written in English. The stories are fascinating, and they're nicely illustrated. And they seem readily available for purchase online. You might also try archive.org or some of the other free online libraries, as well. I have seen as many as a dozen different story books of this kind, in one place (don't remember where, though), so I suspect there must have been a lot of them published in and sold in the US in their day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Hasegawa Stories especially, was a series of quite a large variety of traditional fairy tales, legends, or myths. But there were others, as the Japanese publishers shrewdly marketed to the English-speaking audience of fans of Oriental culture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/SzbKd.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12944" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3239" RevisionGUID="dc9e786c-e3df-421e-aa44-18dac608935b" CreationDate="2018-01-02T03:58:33.037" UserId="4561" Text="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJPe6hL7M0U&#xD;&#xA;(An elder of the Crow tribe tells a story about Little People)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7d5KGV_HcY&#xD;&#xA;An author who lived among the Cherokee tribe, who studied their culture and legends, is featured on a News program for her claim that the Little People actually existed long ago. In other words, she believes the legends are based in fact.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Cherokee and Crow tribes, and (so I've heard) many other NA tribes of North America, had persistent legends of &quot;Little People&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://www.gutenberg.org/files/45634/45634-h/45634-h.htm&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;James Mooney's &quot;Myths of the Cherokee&quot; (1902) makes 28 references of Little People, in a number of different legends.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If I remember correctly, Cherokee children were routinely warned not to venture out alone at night, for fear that they would be captured by the Little People. I personally haven't studied the legends that closely, although now I'm more curious." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12945" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3240" RevisionGUID="05cf61fc-110c-4ab0-be94-04f99c6f1539" CreationDate="2018-01-02T09:43:19.467" UserId="2774" Text="Not sure what you are looking for but you have:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Mitford's [tale from old Japan][1]. A book from 1870 (something like that) collected by an Englishman&#xD;&#xA; - David's [Myths and legends from Japan][2] from 1910 (someting like that)&#xD;&#xA; - Foster's [the book of Yokai][3]&#xD;&#xA; - Isawaka's [Ghosts and the Japanese][4]&#xD;&#xA; - Shirane's [The Demon at the Agi Bridge][5]&#xD;&#xA; - Kunio's [Folk legend at Tono][6]&#xD;&#xA; - The [Otogi zoshi][7] on the internet, coupled with marvelous original illustrations, just the stories summarized, but still worth the deal for the marvelous illustrations&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most of those are either by Englishmen, collecting stories or translations from Japanese storybooks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;NB: provided I find time, I will add a small description of each books&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.amazon.com/Tales-Old-Japan-Folklore-Stories/dp/0486440621/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.amazon.com/Myths-Legends-Japan-Hadland-Davis/dp/0486270459/ref=pd_sim_b_njs_title_1&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.amazon.fr/Book-Yokai-Mysterious-Creatures-Japanese/dp/0520271025&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.amazon.com/Ghosts-Japanese-Cultural-Experience-Legends/dp/0874211794/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Bridge-Japanese-Translations-Classics/dp/0231152450&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.amazon.com/Folk-Legends-Tono-Phantastic-Creatures/dp/144224822X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1514885715&amp;sr=1-1&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://edb.kulib.kyoto-u.ac.jp/exhibit-e/otogi/cover/index.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12947" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3240" RevisionGUID="366d4706-00cc-4488-a097-52390e5ba861" CreationDate="2018-01-02T19:19:37.180" UserId="2774" Comment="add some books descriptions" Text="Not sure what you are looking for but you have:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Mitford's [tale from old Japan][1]. A book from 1870 (something like that) collected by an Englishman, Algernon Miltford, one of the very first European truly in love with Japanese culture. This book is full of fairly good stories. An example is the 47 ronins an incredibly popular story. There is a movie with Keanu Reeves and back in time there is a Japanese movie with Toshiro Mifune Chuushingura based on those events.&#xD;&#xA; - David's [Myths and legends from Japan][2] from 1910 (someting like that)&#xD;&#xA; - Foster's [the book of Yokai][3] an absolutely wonderful and highly recommended book by someone clearly knowing his stuff. Full of wonderful illustrations, kanjis (good if you are learning Japanese), old stuff and modern stuff. Highly recommended.&#xD;&#xA; - Isawaka's [Ghosts and the Japanese][4] A book trying to give you a view of Japanese ghosts which have nothing to do with European view. Asians see death differently than European and this book is a good introduction to understand those differences.&#xD;&#xA; - Shirane's [The Demon at the Agi Bridge][5]&#xD;&#xA; - Kunio's [Folk legend at Tono][6]&#xD;&#xA; - The [Otogi zoshi][7] on the internet, coupled with marvelous original illustrations, just the stories summarized, but still worth the deal for the marvelous illustrations&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most of those are either by Englishmen, collecting stories or translations from Japanese storybooks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;NB: provided I find time, I will add a small description of each books&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.amazon.com/Tales-Old-Japan-Folklore-Stories/dp/0486440621/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.amazon.com/Myths-Legends-Japan-Hadland-Davis/dp/0486270459/ref=pd_sim_b_njs_title_1&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.amazon.fr/Book-Yokai-Mysterious-Creatures-Japanese/dp/0520271025&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.amazon.com/Ghosts-Japanese-Cultural-Experience-Legends/dp/0874211794/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Bridge-Japanese-Translations-Classics/dp/0231152450&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.amazon.com/Folk-Legends-Tono-Phantastic-Creatures/dp/144224822X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1514885715&amp;sr=1-1&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://edb.kulib.kyoto-u.ac.jp/exhibit-e/otogi/cover/index.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12948" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3216" RevisionGUID="ad5495a8-5ae5-4ea3-a6a5-ba229ab9b2c6" CreationDate="2018-01-02T19:36:07.840" UserId="1241" Comment="Added one tag." Text="|folklore|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12951" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="10" RevisionGUID="7d36e205-e312-4132-a046-c64b3508010c" CreationDate="2018-01-02T22:57:20.090" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="12957" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3242" RevisionGUID="e4ce3b0d-acb4-4543-aa16-93696e5b813c" CreationDate="2018-01-03T04:47:12.730" UserId="4561" Text="The beautiful mind (soul) only finds pleasure (happiness) in unconditional love (heart).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The heart (unconditional love) likewise only finds happiness (pleasure) in the soul (beautiful mind).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Diligence is required to join the two together as one. The mind does most of the work, while the heart mainly just waits patiently.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Love being divine, quite naturally and effortlessly transcends worldly diversions, while the soul has to put forth real effort into reaching that state of purity, peace, and happiness (pleasure).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Seeds - Birth and childhood. Logically sorting things out mentally. Ant is the teacher or parent.&#xD;&#xA; 2. Golden fleece - Youth. Reckless adventure, meeting challenges. The reed is intuition or subconscious. This is about the age when many people first become aware of their subconscious mind. &#xD;&#xA; 3. Pure spring water - Spiritual development, usually occurs in mature adulthood.&#xD;&#xA; 4. Intoxication - The soul encounters death, and falls asleep, as if drunk on some sweet elixer. No more pain or feeling of any kind. A lifetime of striving now ceased.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But unconditional love dwelling in the heart serves to help the mind / soul to transcend and gain victory over death. They enter paradise together. Happily ever after.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12958" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3237" RevisionGUID="ec35e73e-b78b-4826-b4f0-83a1215429b3" CreationDate="2018-01-03T09:38:35.823" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Warning- Extremely deep in Greek/Roman myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Virgin of Cumae, or the Cumaean Sybil, was a priestess with the gift of prophecy. She would write her prophecies on oak leaves an arrange them. But, if the wind blew them out of order, she did not put them back together.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On day, Apollo came down, declared his love and offered her a gift, in exchange for her virginity. She picked up a pile of sand, and asked for the years of the gains of sand she held. Apollo complied, but later, the Cumaean kept her virginity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She kept the long life she asked for and the power of prophecy. But, Apollo did nothing to keep her beautiful through her long life. Her body withered, and eventually made her way into the Underworld, still living.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Troy was sacked, Aeneas escaped. On his journey, he met the Cumaean Sybil, and delivered her back to the world of the living.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She is said to have lived a thousand years. As she withered, she became so small, she was eventually kept in a jar(I know not who) until only her voice remained.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is the the Virgin of Cumaea known by any name other then her title?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12959" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3237" RevisionGUID="ec35e73e-b78b-4826-b4f0-83a1215429b3" CreationDate="2018-01-03T09:38:35.823" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Is the Cumaean Sybil known by any other name?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12960" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3237" RevisionGUID="ec35e73e-b78b-4826-b4f0-83a1215429b3" CreationDate="2018-01-03T09:38:35.823" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|greek|roman|trojan-war|virgil|oracle|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12961" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3243" RevisionGUID="f8455732-ce9e-4359-a50b-136b7b7837eb" CreationDate="2018-01-03T10:25:58.393" UserId="108" Text="There have actually been many names from almost as many sources. In the [*Aeneid*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneid), Virgil described the priestess as &quot;**Deiphobe**, daughter of Glaucus&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ni iam praemissus Achtes  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Adforet, atque una Phoebi Triviaeque sacerdos,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Deiphobe Glauci, fatur quae talia regi:  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'Non hoc ista sibi tempus spectacula poscit;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'Nunc grege de intacto septem mactare iuvencos  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'Praestiterit, totidem lectas de more bidentes.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Description of Greece*, [Pausanias](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pausanias_(geographer)), citing a Cumaean historian, named her &quot;**Demo**&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The next woman to give oracles in the same way, according to Hyperochus of Cumae, a historian, was called Demo, and came from Cumae in the territory of the Opici. The Cumaeans can point to no oracle given by this woman, but they show a small stone urn in a sanctuary of Apollo, in which they say are placed the bones of the Sibyl.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [*Etymologiae*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymologiae), Isidore of Seville claims the Cumaean oracle is called &quot;**Amalthaea**&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Septima Cumana, nomine Amalthea, quae novem libros adtulit Tarquinio Prisco, in quibus erant decreta Romana conscripta. Ipsa est et Cumaea, de qua Vergilius&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Isidore may have traced this name from the [*Antiquitates Rerum Humanarum et Divinarum*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiquitates_rerum_humanarum_et_divinarum), in which Varro reputedly gave the names for the Cumaean Sibyl: &quot;**Herophile**&quot; and &quot;**Demophile**&quot; in addition to Amalthaea. This work is now lost, but his Sibylline list is preserved for us by Lactantius in [*The Divine Institutes*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Divine_Institutes):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The seventh was of Cumæ, by name Amalthæa, who is termed by some Herophile, or Demophile, and they say that she brought nine books to the king Tarquinius Priscus, and asked for them three hundred philippics, and that the king refused so great a price, and derided the madness of the woman; that she, in the sight of the king, burnt three of the books, and demanded the same price for those which were left.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Martianus Capella](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martianus_Capella) however claims the Cumaean and Erthraean were one, &quot;**Symmachia**&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; You know that there were not ten of these sibyls, as they say, but two — namely, Herophila, a Trojan, daughter of Marmesus; and Symmachia daughter of Hippotensis, who was born at Erythrae but prophesied at Cumae&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [*De Mirabilibus Auscultationibus*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Marvellous_Things_Heard), it is claimed that &quot;some&quot; called her &quot;**Melankraira**&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At Cumae in Italy there is shown, it appears, a subterranean bed-chamber of the prophetic Sibyl, who, they say, was of a very great age, and had always remained a virgin, being a native of Erythrae, but by some of the inhabitants of Italy called a native of Cumae, and by some named Melancraera.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lastly, the [scholia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scholia) on Plato's []() mentions that the Cumaean Sibyl has been called &quot;**Taraxandra**&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Cumaean sibyl had once the apotropaic name of Taraxandra, 'she who alarms men' (Schol. Plat. Phaedr. p. 244B), which suggests the severity of a guardian at a gate.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Knight, William Francis Jackson. *Cumaean Gates: A Reference of the Sixth Aeneid to the Initiation Pattern*. Blackwell, 1936.&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12965" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3244" RevisionGUID="50edece5-500b-4939-959e-bce860f95450" CreationDate="2018-01-07T19:15:45.070" UserId="4586" Text="I have read that there are parallels between Greek mythology of Dionysis' sacrifice to humanity and Christian belief surrounding the crucifixion of Jesus. What mythology is there concerning Dionysious; the Greek god of wine; and any sacrifice he may have made on behalf of mortals?  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12966" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3244" RevisionGUID="50edece5-500b-4939-959e-bce860f95450" CreationDate="2018-01-07T19:15:45.070" UserId="4586" Text="Dionysis sacrifice for humanity" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12967" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3244" RevisionGUID="50edece5-500b-4939-959e-bce860f95450" CreationDate="2018-01-07T19:15:45.070" UserId="4586" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12971" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3247" RevisionGUID="d711930f-23b0-4128-b036-a0b7387eff59" CreationDate="2018-01-08T16:16:14.700" UserId="4525" Text="(SO there is this controversy about a black guy playing Achilles in some new show, or something. Which made me wonder...)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How did Achilles look like?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can we say how did Achilles really look like? (from what I remember there is a description of his hair in Illiad)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What clues can his parents give us?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12972" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3247" RevisionGUID="d711930f-23b0-4128-b036-a0b7387eff59" CreationDate="2018-01-08T16:16:14.700" UserId="4525" Text="How did Achilles look like?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12973" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3247" RevisionGUID="d711930f-23b0-4128-b036-a0b7387eff59" CreationDate="2018-01-08T16:16:14.700" UserId="4525" Text="|greek|achilles|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12974" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3248" RevisionGUID="f56ad22f-8b3a-4b5e-a342-43771321aad8" CreationDate="2018-01-08T16:32:43.807" UserId="4525" Text="Chernobog is a name many authors use for their Big bad guy. But was Chernobog really an evil god? Was he really Belobogs evil opposite, or is there some proof that he simply represented some different aspects, that didn't fit with Belobog? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was Chernobog evil before christian monks started to compare him to the Devil?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To avoid &quot;good vs. evil&quot; dilemma, let's just say that human sacrifice is bad, representing 7 major sins is bad, spreading diseases is bad, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Killing enemies is not bad, guiding/harvesting souls of the dead (like Grim reaper) is not inherently bad, giving someone unnatural powers is not bad(unless the cost is like slauthering your loved ones or something), etc.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12975" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3248" RevisionGUID="f56ad22f-8b3a-4b5e-a342-43771321aad8" CreationDate="2018-01-08T16:32:43.807" UserId="4525" Text="Was Chernobog bad, before Christians?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12976" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3248" RevisionGUID="f56ad22f-8b3a-4b5e-a342-43771321aad8" CreationDate="2018-01-08T16:32:43.807" UserId="4525" Text="|slavic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12979" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3247" RevisionGUID="86beb054-0786-4e91-b182-4b238e4aa825" CreationDate="2018-01-08T18:12:36.290" UserId="108" Comment="edited body" Text="(So there is this controversy about a black guy playing Achilles in some new show, or something. Which made me wonder...)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What did Achilles look like?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can we say how Achilles really looked? (From what I remember there is a description of his hair in Iliad)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What clues can his parents give us?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12980" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3247" RevisionGUID="86beb054-0786-4e91-b182-4b238e4aa825" CreationDate="2018-01-08T18:12:36.290" UserId="108" Comment="edited body" Text="What did Achilles look like?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12981" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3249" RevisionGUID="24250f52-9af7-4cfb-996a-d122977f4199" CreationDate="2018-01-08T20:18:28.963" UserId="3177" Text="I'm trying to find a difference between two _Le Morte d'Arthur_ editions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The first was printed in 1886, prepared by Ernest Rhys, with introduction by himself. Single volume.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - https://archive.org/details/maloryshistoryof00maloiala&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The second (in two volumes) was printed in 1906 and was reprinted many times, the last edition I could find on Archive.Org dated to 1956. Prepared also by Ernest Rhys, with introduction by John Rhys.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Vol. 1: https://archive.org/details/lemortedart01malo&#xD;&#xA; - Vol. 2: https://archive.org/details/lemortedarthu02malo&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the introduction to 1886 edition, it is stated that the text is abridged (page xxxiv):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Malory's _Book_ really resolves itself into three great divisions: first, the history of King Arthur proper; second, the romances of Sir Launcelot and Sir Tristram de Lyoness [...]; and third, the Quest of the Grail. In the present version it has been thought well to omit the second of these two divisions, which it is proposed to afterwards issue as a volume by itself, complementary to this of King Arthur and the Quest of the Grail.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then, I made a table with side-by-side comparison between 1886 and 1956 editions. As I expected, the 1886 edition omits a lot of &quot;Books&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But, I also discovered, that there are two mysterious &quot;Books&quot;, preserved in 1886, but omitted in 1956 edition. Here they are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The question:** Why these &quot;Books&quot; omitted from 1956 edition?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The full table in Word: **https://ufile.io/dhd1c**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/dkf96.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/4gNr4.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12982" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3249" RevisionGUID="24250f52-9af7-4cfb-996a-d122977f4199" CreationDate="2018-01-08T20:18:28.963" UserId="3177" Text="Omitted Books from Le Morte d'Arthur" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12983" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3249" RevisionGUID="24250f52-9af7-4cfb-996a-d122977f4199" CreationDate="2018-01-08T20:18:28.963" UserId="3177" Text="|arthurian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12984" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3249" RevisionGUID="876e7192-6fde-4123-a6da-ed112d0cce37" CreationDate="2018-01-08T20:23:31.237" UserId="3177" Comment="edited body" Text="I'm trying to find a difference between two _Le Morte d'Arthur_ editions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The first was printed in 1886, prepared by Ernest Rhys, with introduction by himself. Single volume.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - https://archive.org/details/maloryshistoryof00maloiala&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The second (in two volumes) was printed in 1906 and was reprinted many times, the last edition I could find on Archive.Org dated to 1956. Prepared also by Ernest Rhys, with introduction by John Rhys.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Vol. 1: https://archive.org/details/lemortedart01malo&#xD;&#xA; - Vol. 2: https://archive.org/details/lemortedarthu02malo&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the introduction to 1886 edition, it is stated that the text is abridged (page xxxiv):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Malory's _Book_ really resolves itself into three great divisions: first, the history of King Arthur proper; second, the romances of Sir Launcelot and Sir Tristram de Lyoness [...]; and third, the Quest of the Grail. In the present version it has been thought well to omit the second of these two divisions, which it is proposed to afterwards issue as a volume by itself, complementary to this of King Arthur and the Quest of the Grail.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then, I made a table with side-by-side comparison between 1886 and 1956 editions. As I expected, the 1886 edition omits a lot of &quot;Books&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But, I also discovered, that there are two mysterious &quot;Books&quot;, preserved in 1886, but omitted in 1956 edition. Here they are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The question:** Why these &quot;Books&quot; omitted in 1956 edition?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The full table in Word: **https://ufile.io/ffoeu**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/dkf96.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/4gNr4.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12985" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3249" RevisionGUID="70f13d40-e481-41ab-a039-b30de381e0a5" CreationDate="2018-01-08T20:29:00.610" UserId="3177" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="I'm trying to find a difference between two _Le Morte d'Arthur_ editions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The first was printed in 1886, prepared by Ernest Rhys, with introduction by himself. Single volume.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - https://archive.org/details/maloryshistoryof00maloiala&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The second (in two volumes) was printed in 1906 and was reprinted many times, the last edition I could find on Archive.Org dated to 1956. Prepared also by Ernest Rhys, with introduction by John Rhys.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Vol. 1: https://archive.org/details/lemortedart01malo&#xD;&#xA; - Vol. 2: https://archive.org/details/lemortedarthu02malo&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the introduction to 1886 edition, it is stated that the text is abridged (page xxxiv):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Malory's _Book_ really resolves itself into three great divisions: first, the history of King Arthur proper; second, the romances of Sir Launcelot and Sir Tristram de Lyoness [...]; and third, the Quest of the Grail. In the present version it has been thought well to omit the second of these two divisions, which it is proposed to afterwards issue as a volume by itself, complementary to this of King Arthur and the Quest of the Grail.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then, I made a table with side-by-side comparison between 1886 and 1956 editions. As I expected, the 1886 edition omits a lot of &quot;Books&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But, I also discovered, that there are two mysterious &quot;Books&quot;, preserved in 1886, but omitted in 1956 edition. Here they are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The question:** Why these &quot;Books&quot; are omitted in 1956 edition?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The full table in Word: **https://ufile.io/ffoeu**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/dkf96.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/4gNr4.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12986" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3250" RevisionGUID="efd68c22-7fa0-4bb6-a574-96c3c300617f" CreationDate="2018-01-08T20:33:27.307" UserId="108" Text="With the preface that I think it's silly upset about *mythological* accuracy in a TV show: since the Olympic gods neglected to photograph their human pets, we can't really know what Achilles looks like. Nor do the ancient epics give much in the way of physical descriptions. That said, literary sources do describe Achilles as having blonde or **reddish-blonde hair**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the *Iliad*, 1.197:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The goddess standing behind Peleus' son caught him by the fair hair&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Statius in his [*Achilleid*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilleid) 1.158-162 likewise describe the hero as:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lo! he was come, made larger by much dust and sweat, and yet for all his weapons and hastened labours still pleasant to the sight; a radiant glow shimmers on his snow-white countenance, and his locks shine more comely than tawny gold.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that according to Hyginus in his [*Fabulae*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaius_Julius_Hyginus#Fabulae), Achilles was called Pyrhha when he was disguised as a woman, because the Greeks called redheads pyrrhos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hyginus added that, while Achilles was disguised, he was called Pyrrha (Red) because of his reddish yellow hair. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&lt;sub&gt;Brewer, Wilmon. Ovid's Metamorphoses in European Culture: Books VI-X. Cornhill Publishing Company, 1941.&lt;/sub&gt;**&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12987" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3247" RevisionGUID="0e6d9f6b-ef6d-4775-b8da-cd8a95cbfca4" CreationDate="2018-01-09T05:37:47.697" UserId="108" Comment="added 40 characters in body" Text="(So there is this controversy about a black guy playing Achilles [in some new show](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy:_Fall_of_a_City). Which made me wonder...)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What did Achilles look like?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can we say how Achilles really looked? (From what I remember there is a description of his hair in Iliad)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What clues can his parents give us?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12988" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3248" RevisionGUID="74039ab0-c8a9-4919-8d3a-6a100056c927" CreationDate="2018-01-09T09:46:58.187" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 5 characters in body; edited title" Text="Chernobog is a name many authors use for their big bad guy. But was Chernobog really an evil god? Was he really Belobogs evil opposite, or is there some proof that he simply represented different aspects that didn't fit with Belobog? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was Chernobog evil before Christian monks started to compare him to the Devil?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To avoid &quot;good vs. evil&quot; dilemma, let's just say that human sacrifice is bad, representing 7 major sins is bad, spreading diseases is bad, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Killing enemies is not bad, guiding/harvesting souls of the dead (like Grim Reaper) is not inherently bad, giving someone unnatural powers is not bad(unless the cost is like slaughtering your loved ones or something), etc.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12989" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3248" RevisionGUID="74039ab0-c8a9-4919-8d3a-6a100056c927" CreationDate="2018-01-09T09:46:58.187" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 5 characters in body; edited title" Text="Was Chernobog evil, before Christians?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12990" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3244" RevisionGUID="653ded3e-d158-4eee-9416-e703395a81e6" CreationDate="2018-01-09T14:14:02.957" UserId="57" Comment="added 2 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="I have read that there are parallels between Greek mythology of Dionysus' sacrifice to humanity and Christian belief surrounding the crucifixion of Jesus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What mythology is there concerning Dionysus, the Greek god of wine, and any sacrifice he may have made on behalf of mortals?  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12991" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3244" RevisionGUID="653ded3e-d158-4eee-9416-e703395a81e6" CreationDate="2018-01-09T14:14:02.957" UserId="57" Comment="added 2 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Dionysus sacrifice for humanity" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12992" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3244" RevisionGUID="653ded3e-d158-4eee-9416-e703395a81e6" CreationDate="2018-01-09T14:14:02.957" UserId="57" Comment="added 2 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|greek|dionysus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12993" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3251" RevisionGUID="6dff520c-7355-49c1-bfed-f95ffbfea268" CreationDate="2018-01-10T09:30:50.100" UserId="4599" Text="I am looking to create a version of Titania &amp; Oberon, the Queen &amp; King of the Fairies in Midsummer Night's Dream, that would have context in India. Probably deities or mythological beings associated with nature/forests, but maybe with a tradition of meddling with humanity?  Thanks!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12994" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3251" RevisionGUID="6dff520c-7355-49c1-bfed-f95ffbfea268" CreationDate="2018-01-10T09:30:50.100" UserId="4599" Text="Which deities in Hinduism could be most closely equated to Titania and Oberon (fairy king &amp; queen)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12995" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3251" RevisionGUID="6dff520c-7355-49c1-bfed-f95ffbfea268" CreationDate="2018-01-10T09:30:50.100" UserId="4599" Text="|comparative|hindu|fairies|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12996" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3251" RevisionGUID="f1e16be5-1f76-4f9e-9257-65858538f680" CreationDate="2018-01-10T12:55:26.357" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags; edited title" Text="Are there any close analogues to the Fairy King &amp; Queen Titania and Oberon, in Indian/Hindu mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12997" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3251" RevisionGUID="f1e16be5-1f76-4f9e-9257-65858538f680" CreationDate="2018-01-10T12:55:26.357" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags; edited title" Text="|comparative|hindu|fairies|india|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="12999" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3252" RevisionGUID="40967c8f-a43b-4fad-be2d-ccb8aa071e3c" CreationDate="2018-01-10T19:20:27.087" UserId="4600" Text="I'm interested in knowing if there are any creatures, monsters, spirits, etc that feed on negative human emotions- specifically grief and regret. Alternately, anything that is specifically attracted to these emotions would also be of interest to me. They can be from any tradition/mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks so much for any answers/ contributions!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13000" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3252" RevisionGUID="40967c8f-a43b-4fad-be2d-ccb8aa071e3c" CreationDate="2018-01-10T19:20:27.087" UserId="4600" Text="Are there any beasts/creatures that &quot;feed on&quot; grief or regrets?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13001" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3252" RevisionGUID="40967c8f-a43b-4fad-be2d-ccb8aa071e3c" CreationDate="2018-01-10T19:20:27.087" UserId="4600" Text="|mythical-creatures|monsters|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13004" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3253" RevisionGUID="8b84e8d8-180e-4f4f-b047-255dc111ccb3" CreationDate="2018-01-11T05:51:51.320" UserId="4601" Text="As in the title, are there any four-armed (two-legged) deities or creatures in the Greek or Roman pantheons? Essentially the morphological opposite of centaurs, in terms of limb numbers." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13005" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3253" RevisionGUID="8b84e8d8-180e-4f4f-b047-255dc111ccb3" CreationDate="2018-01-11T05:51:51.320" UserId="4601" Text="Are there any four-armed deities or creatures in the Greek or Roman pantheons?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13006" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3253" RevisionGUID="8b84e8d8-180e-4f4f-b047-255dc111ccb3" CreationDate="2018-01-11T05:51:51.320" UserId="4601" Text="|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13007" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3254" RevisionGUID="3f6f5bf0-6ccf-4fe4-9735-abb5f9d559bb" CreationDate="2018-01-11T14:58:09.157" UserId="3177" Text="As Gibet pointed out, _The Book of Elaine_ is just a cutting in the text of the book XVIII, precisely a cut in the middle of the chapter VIII, i.e. page 283 in the 1956 edition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The same way, _The Book of Queen's Maying_ starts in the same place with Book XVIII, Chapter XXV (How true love is likened to summer), i.e. page 314 in the 1956 edition." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13008" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3254" RevisionGUID="947ab9df-34c1-4d8d-9853-e7ed25778d1c" CreationDate="2018-01-11T17:26:49.203" UserId="3177" Comment="edited body" Text="As Gibet pointed out\*, _The Book of Elaine_ is just a cutting in the text of the book XVIII, precisely a cut in the middle of the chapter VIII, i.e. page 283 in the 1956 edition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The same way, _The Book of Queen's Maying_ starts in the same place with book XVIII, chapter XXV (How true love is likened to summer), i.e. page 314 in the 1956 edition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;\-\-\-\-\-\-\-\--\-\-&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;\* It was pointed out in comments. Comments are now removed." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13009" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3255" RevisionGUID="9f7d114b-1bca-409e-ac4b-0caebd6a392c" CreationDate="2018-01-11T20:09:27.313" UserId="292" Text="The Actiorione, Siamese twins and sons of Poseidon. They had four arms, four legs and two heads. Hesiod's [Catalogues of Women][1] mentions them:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Scholiast Ven. on Homer, Il. xi. 750: The two sons of Actor and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Molione... Hesiod has given their descent by calling them after Actor&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and Molione; but their father was Poseidon.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Porphyrius,6 Quaest. Hom. ad Iliad. pert., 265: But Aristarchus is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; informed that they were twins, not . . . such as were the Dioscuri,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; but, on Hesiod's testimony, double in form and with two bodies and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; joined to one another.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They also appear in the Iliad; Nestor claims he could defeat them if their father hadn't taken their side (11:750-752) but they beat him a chariot race. (23,638) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/HesiodCatalogues.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13010" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3256" RevisionGUID="b96c1e6a-9c39-4544-974b-c6d2b5dd6108" CreationDate="2018-01-12T18:54:53.367" UserId="2892" Text="I'd suggest doing some reading on Buddhist &quot;demons&quot;, the daughters of [Mara][1] in particular.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wiki lists the three daughters as:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Taṇhā][2] (&quot;thirst, desire, longing, greed&quot;)&#xD;&#xA;- Arati (&quot;aversion, discontentment&quot;)&#xD;&#xA;- [Raga][3] (&quot;&quot;greed, sensuality, lust, desire&quot;)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The wiki also mentions two other daughters, associated with Pride and Fear.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is definitely the idea that such demons &quot;feed&quot; on negative human emotions, becoming &quot;stronger&quot; the more a person gives in to these negative feelings. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mara_(demon)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ta%E1%B9%87h%C4%81&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raga_(Buddhism)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13011" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3257" RevisionGUID="85ff1ccf-18bb-42d1-acb0-c4d39a4ed20f" CreationDate="2018-01-12T19:17:34.583" UserId="2892" Text="This is a subject of some interest. I address similarities here: [How do Dionysus and Jesus Relate?][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of sacrificing himself for humanity, as in the case of the Christ, I don't really see that element in the Greek canon (except in the idea that wine is a boon for mankind--warms you when cold, consoles you in sorrow, etc.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My understanding is that Christian ethics arise partly out of Ancient Greek humanist ideas (starting with Socrates), and in Hebrew scripture with the idea that &quot;love of the other&quot; is the central tenet [see [Hillel][2] [&quot;the rest is just commentary&quot;][3] and [Leviticus 19:18][4].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Christ takes it to the next level, in actually sacrificing himself for all humans.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We do see many demigods (1 divine parent, 1 mortal parent) in the Greek canon with parallels:&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;-Dionysus as dying/resurrected, sacrament of wine = &quot;resurrection in spirit&quot; &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;-Heracles self-immolation related to pity, leads to immortality &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;-Achilles self-sacrifice, based on glory, but for the benefit of others  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Heracles and Dionysus are literally &quot;sons of god&quot; because &quot;Dios&quot; (Διός) is the most common epithet for Zeus, not &quot;Ζεύς&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But it's ultimately [Socrates][5], who selflessly sacrificed himself for a higher purpose. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I strongly recommend taking a look at his [Apology][6], which isn't an apology at all, but a calling out of the corruption of the power structure of the time. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even more important is the [Crito][7], where Socrates, most wise, makes the point that **injustice answered by injustice is not a remedy**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, &quot;turn the other cheek&quot;, even if it means dying for what is right.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/3089/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_the_Elder&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.jewfaq.org/brother.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://biblehub.com/multi/leviticus/19-18.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apology_(Plato)&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crito" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13012" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3257" RevisionGUID="d3688249-f4f8-4e4d-bdaf-9c660155bcb4" CreationDate="2018-01-12T19:22:53.800" UserId="2892" Comment="added 12 characters in body" Text="This is a subject of some interest. I address similarities here: [How do Dionysus and Jesus Relate?][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of sacrificing himself for humanity, as in the case of the Christ, I don't really see that element in the Greek canon with Dionysus, except in the idea that wine is a boon for mankind--warms you when cold, consoles you in sorrow, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My understanding is that Christian ethics arise partly out of Ancient Greek humanist ideas (starting with Socrates), and in Hebrew scripture with the idea that &quot;love of the other&quot; is the central tenet [see [Hillel][2] [&quot;the rest is just commentary&quot;][3] and [Leviticus 19:18][4].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Christ takes it to the next level, in actually sacrificing himself for all humans.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We do see many demigods (1 divine parent, 1 mortal parent) in the Greek canon with parallels:&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;-Dionysus as dying/resurrected, sacrament of wine = &quot;resurrection in spirit&quot; &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;-[Heracles self-immolation][5] related to pity, leads to immortality &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;-Achilles self-sacrifice, based on glory, but for the benefit of others  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Heracles and Dionysus are literally &quot;sons of god&quot; because &quot;Dios&quot; (Διός) is the most common epithet for Zeus, not &quot;Ζεύς&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But it is ultimately **[Socrates][6]** who selflessly sacrifices himself for a higher purpose. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I strongly recommend taking a look at his [Apology][7], which isn't an apology at all, but a calling out of the corruption of the power structure of the time. *(Sound familiar? :)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even more important is the [Crito][8], where Socrates, most wise, makes the point that **injustice answered by injustice is not a remedy**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, &quot;turn the other cheek&quot;, even if it means dying for what is right.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/3089/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_the_Elder&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.jewfaq.org/brother.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://biblehub.com/multi/leviticus/19-18.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2458/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apology_(Plato)&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crito" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13013" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3257" RevisionGUID="10ec9626-2620-4ddd-8ab7-6bcea63b91ba" CreationDate="2018-01-12T19:40:11.777" UserId="2892" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="This is a subject of some interest. I address similarities here: [How do Dionysus and Jesus Relate?][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of sacrificing himself for humanity, as in the case of the Christ, I don't really see that element in the Greek canon with Dionysus, except in the idea that wine is a boon for mankind--warms you when cold, consoles you in sorrow, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My understanding is that Christian ethics arise partly out of Ancient Greek humanist ideas (starting with Socrates), and from Hebrew scripture with the idea that &quot;love of the other&quot; is the central tenet [see [Hillel][2] [&quot;the rest is just commentary&quot;][3] and [Leviticus 19:18][4].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Christ takes it to the next level, in actually sacrificing himself for all humans.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We do see many demigods (1 divine parent, 1 mortal parent) in the Greek canon with parallels:&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;-Dionysus as dying/resurrected, sacrament of wine = &quot;resurrection in spirit&quot; &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;-[Heracles self-immolation][5] related to pity, leads to immortality &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;-Achilles self-sacrifice, based on glory, but for the benefit of others  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Heracles and Dionysus are literally &quot;sons of god&quot; because &quot;Dios&quot; (Διός) is the most common epithet for Zeus, not &quot;Ζεύς&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But it is ultimately **[Socrates][6]** who selflessly sacrifices himself for a higher purpose. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I strongly recommend taking a look at his [Apology][7], which isn't an apology at all, but a calling out of the corruption of the power structure of the time. *(Sound familiar? :)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even more important is the [Crito][8], where Socrates, most wise, makes the point that **injustice answered by injustice is not a remedy**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, &quot;turn the other cheek&quot;, even if it means dying for what is right.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/3089/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_the_Elder&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.jewfaq.org/brother.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://biblehub.com/multi/leviticus/19-18.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2458/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apology_(Plato)&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crito" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13014" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3257" RevisionGUID="67e61ca1-47d5-4711-92c1-c61ba227e62d" CreationDate="2018-01-12T21:30:03.293" UserId="2892" Comment="added 84 characters in body" Text="This is a subject of some interest. I address similarities here: [How do Dionysus and Jesus Relate?][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of sacrificing himself for humanity, as in the case of the Christ, I don't really see that element in the Greek canon with Dionysus, except in the idea that wine is a boon for mankind--warms you when cold, consoles you in sorrow, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My understanding is that Christian ethics arise partly out of Ancient Greek humanist ideas (starting with Socrates), and from Hebrew scripture with the idea that &quot;love of the other&quot; is the central tenet [see [Hillel][2] [&quot;the rest is just commentary&quot;][3] and [Leviticus 19:18][4].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Christ takes it to the next level, in actually sacrificing himself for all humans.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We do see many demigods (1 divine parent, 1 mortal parent) in the Greek canon with parallels:&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;-Dionysus as dying/resurrected, sacrament of wine = &quot;resurrection in spirit&quot; &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;-[Heracles self-immolation][5] related to pity, leads to immortality &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;-Achilles self-sacrifice, based on glory, but for the benefit of others  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Heracles and Dionysus are literally &quot;sons of god&quot; because &quot;Dios&quot; (Διός) is the most common epithet for Zeus, not &quot;Ζεύς&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But it is ultimately **[Socrates][6]** who selflessly sacrifices himself for a higher purpose. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I strongly recommend taking a look at his [Apology][7], which isn't an apology at all, but a calling out of the corruption of the power structure of the time. *(Sound familiar? :)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even more important is the [Crito][8], where Socrates, most wise, makes the point that **injustice answered by injustice is not a remedy**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, &quot;turn the other cheek&quot;, even if it means dying for what is right.  For Socrates, like Jesus, setting an example was more important than his own life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/3089/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_the_Elder&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.jewfaq.org/brother.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://biblehub.com/multi/leviticus/19-18.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2458/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apology_(Plato)&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crito" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13015" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3258" RevisionGUID="70c034ea-866f-4ab6-85f4-92b4f44eee52" CreationDate="2018-01-12T21:48:54.207" UserId="4108" Text="I'm writing a novel and would appreciate it if someone would tell me how the Amazons (Mythical woman warriors) lived. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like, what were their practices and what their culture was.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13016" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3258" RevisionGUID="70c034ea-866f-4ab6-85f4-92b4f44eee52" CreationDate="2018-01-12T21:48:54.207" UserId="4108" Text="The Amazons, for research" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13017" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3258" RevisionGUID="70c034ea-866f-4ab6-85f4-92b4f44eee52" CreationDate="2018-01-12T21:48:54.207" UserId="4108" Text="|greek|mythohistory|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13018" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3259" RevisionGUID="b774a4b1-9f22-4276-8ea2-7198172cc1b5" CreationDate="2018-01-14T18:18:25.157" UserId="4611" Text="To what extent did the ancient greeks consider their deities to be omniscient? Hence does Greek mythology claim to be the definite truth like other religions often do and might this leave more room to question and even apostatize?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks in advance x" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13019" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3259" RevisionGUID="b774a4b1-9f22-4276-8ea2-7198172cc1b5" CreationDate="2018-01-14T18:18:25.157" UserId="4611" Text="were greek gods/titans considered omniscient such as the abrahamic faiths do?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13020" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3259" RevisionGUID="b774a4b1-9f22-4276-8ea2-7198172cc1b5" CreationDate="2018-01-14T18:18:25.157" UserId="4611" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13026" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3259" RevisionGUID="24dbdc9f-10e7-47db-80ec-62894bb12fe1" CreationDate="2018-01-15T12:29:18.267" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 38 characters in body; edited title" Text="Did the ancient Greeks consider their deities to be omniscient? Hence does Greek mythology claim to be the definite truth like other religions often do and might this leave more room to question and even apostatize?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13027" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3259" RevisionGUID="24dbdc9f-10e7-47db-80ec-62894bb12fe1" CreationDate="2018-01-15T12:29:18.267" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 38 characters in body; edited title" Text="Were Greek deities omniscient, like the God of Abrahamic faiths?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13029" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3261" RevisionGUID="cdcd0345-5644-4d6f-b944-9e8615940909" CreationDate="2018-01-16T14:38:00.057" UserId="2762" Text="**Not even close.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This can be shown by, for example:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Hephaestus only discovered Aphrodite and Ares affair after Helius saw it and told him. Then Ares and Aphrodite had no foreknowledge of the net trap:&#xD;&#xA;https://aquileana.wordpress.com/2014/10/02/greek-mythology-aphrodite-hephaestus-ares-and-her-other-lovers/ Similarly,  Hera is fooled by zeus pretending to be a cuckoo, and doesn't find out about his many children (at least for a while)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Prometheus tricked Zeus by hiding meat inside an animal stomach, and bull bones in glistening fat. Zeus chose the wrong one. (Allowing for the fact Hesiod implied Zeus knew, &quot;in mainstream versions of the story Zeus was actually deceived, and that Hesiod is trying to be pious by changing the story to make Zeus look better&quot;&#xD;&#xA;http://blog.world-mysteries.com/science/the-prometheus-myth/&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trick_at_Mecone&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Thetis didn't realise Achilles vulnerability after dipping him in the Styx&#xD;&#xA;https://www.greekmythology.com/Myths/The_Myths/Trojan_War/trojan_war.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Kallisto manages to hide her affair with Zeus from both Hera and Artemis, at least until she became too pregnant for it to be obvious: http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/ZeusLoves3.html#Kallisto&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Poseidon doesn't spot odysseus after leaving Calypso's island for 18 days, when he spots him on his way home:&#xD;&#xA;http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/odyssey/section3.rhtml&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can find a lot of other examples, of course but the gods don't appear to have anything approaching omniscience." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13030" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3262" RevisionGUID="b2a8e0ac-6275-4822-aba5-92e2d007dc92" CreationDate="2018-01-16T16:48:07.683" UserId="4271" Text="The Fates are omniscient. Clotho spun the tread of fate. Lachesis measured it. Atropos cut it. All the while observing the would and knowing every thing between the three of them. Except what would happen to themselves, for Apollo, as a mortal, got them drunk and forced them to tell him how his human master could avoid his fate.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Graeae could be considered all knowing as well. They knew the three items needed to kill Medusa and where they were. But, they could not see the Perseus would take their eye and tooth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I realize the Fate nor the Graeae are gods." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13033" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2399" RevisionGUID="66a8e95c-3c88-4195-b762-37ef159dbe76" CreationDate="2018-01-17T10:20:06.410" UserId="666" Comment="copyedit" Text="**Yes**, both as figures in historical and semi-legendary stories, and possibly through borrowings of mythological themes and ideas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;History and semi-legendary material&#xD;&#xA;-----------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First, let's note the actual historical background, attested in Icelandic sagas: it seems that Norwegian kings had some kind of traditional right to gather tribute from the Sami, usually through some loyal man of his. This is described in e.g. *Egil's Saga*. This tribute seems to have been very substantial and important to the Norwegian kings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Somewhat less historical is the traditional role assigned to individual Sami in Norse sagas: as sorcerers and wizards. The Sami seems to have been held to be a people with strong and fearsome magicians, and some of the semi-legendary material is about how foolish it is to cross them. They are generally not hostile, but, if provoked, they will retaliate. They can also be dangerous for other reasons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story in *Ynglingasaga* of [Vanlandi][1] is a good example: the Swedish king Vanlandi visited the Sami, and agreed with their chieftain Snow that he would return to marry Snow's daughter Drift within three years. When *ten* years had passed and he had not returned, Drift went to a magician to cast a spell on Vanlandi: either he would return to the Sami, or he would die. Vanlandi was seized with an urge to go back to Sápmi, but his friends persuaded him to stay at Uppsala. He soon withered and died. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Stories as this can be interpreted as small-scale reflections of the larger mythology, with the Norse serving as analogues of the gods and the Sami as Jotuns. See also the story of Snøfrid and Harald Fairhair in *Heimskringla*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mythological material&#xD;&#xA;---------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a slightly less straightforward topic, as there much more room for interpretation, but it is certain that Norse and Sami mythologies shares some features. Whether this is due to borrowing either way or separate developments from a common ancestor is impossible to say for sure, but the traditional argument seems to be to associate anything that is faintly shamanistic in the mythological to the Sami, and the rest is considered Norse (or perhaps, &quot;Germanic&quot;). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In particular, [Seidr][2] is thought to be a Sami practice borrowed by the Norse. There is a hint of this in *Lokasenna*, where Loki accuses Odin of &quot;drumming like the [Völvas][3]&quot;, and that this was unmanly; Sami [Noaidi][4] would go into a trance through drumming a special drum (c.f. also the story about the Völva in *The Saga of Eric the Red*).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the other direction, the Sami are thought to have borrowed the gods Thor and Frey in the form of [Horagalles][5] and [Waralden Olmai][6].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The above is mainly based on Gro Steinsland, *Fornnordisk religion*, except for some examples from the sagas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanlandi&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sei%C3%B0r&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lva&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noaidi&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horagalles&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waralden_Olmai" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13035" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3237" RevisionGUID="d0d315e2-643b-4778-840c-6556031ba8e9" CreationDate="2018-01-17T15:23:48.117" UserId="2693" Comment="spelling, grammar" Text="Warning- Extremely deep in Greek/Roman myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Virgin of Cumae, or the Cumaean Sybil, was a priestess with the gift of prophecy. She would write her prophecies on oak leaves an arrange them. But, if the wind blew them out of order, she did not put them back together.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One day, Apollo came down, declared his love and offered her a gift, in exchange for her virginity. She picked up a pile of sand and asked for the years of the gains of sand she held. Apollo complied, but later, the Cumaean kept her virginity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She kept the long life she asked for and the power of prophecy. But, Apollo did nothing to keep her beautiful through her long life. Her body withered and eventually made her way to the Underworld, still living.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Troy was sacked, Aeneas escaped. On his journey, he met the Cumaean Sybil and delivered her back to the world of the living.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She is said to have lived a thousand years. As she withered, she became so small, she was eventually kept in a jar(I know not who) until only her voice remained.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is the Virgin of Cumaea known by any name other than her title?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13036" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3237" RevisionGUID="d0d315e2-643b-4778-840c-6556031ba8e9" CreationDate="2018-01-17T15:23:48.117" Comment="Proposed by 2693 approved by 967, 666 edit id of 518" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13037" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3263" RevisionGUID="c2ee7347-3f0b-4880-b1b5-328a1bc63249" CreationDate="2018-01-17T17:33:53.383" UserId="4068" Text="according to Wikipedia, Ananke is &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;the personification of inevitability, compulsion and necessity. She is often depicted holding a spindle. One of the Greek primodorial deities, Ananke marks the beginning of the cosmos along with her father and consort, Chronos, the personification of time. She is also the mother of the Fates.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a Greek god/goddess/deity of freedom. Or is freedom a peculiarly modern Western concept that has no purchase on the ancient Greek imagination and so no personification of such?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If so, what is the closest approximation?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13038" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3263" RevisionGUID="c2ee7347-3f0b-4880-b1b5-328a1bc63249" CreationDate="2018-01-17T17:33:53.383" UserId="4068" Text="Is there a Greek god/goddess of freedom?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13039" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3263" RevisionGUID="c2ee7347-3f0b-4880-b1b5-328a1bc63249" CreationDate="2018-01-17T17:33:53.383" UserId="4068" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13040" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3264" RevisionGUID="2beb9905-3afe-423b-8fdd-6ed9b35dacd3" CreationDate="2018-01-17T18:16:15.423" UserId="2892" Text="Freedom is definitely an important concept in Ancient Greece, which is reflected in the status of independent city-states throughout it's early history *(prior to Athenian hegemony, Alexander, Roman Empire, etc.)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The goddess [Eleutheria][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See: [ἐλευθερία][1], [ἐλευθ-ερία][2], [ἐλευθ-έρια (festival)][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The name was also an epithet of Artemis, who was quite free in the sense that she was the goddess of the wilderness, and never subject to a husband's rule.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Libertas][4] is the Roman equivalent, and was the inspiration for [Lady Liberty][5].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleutheria&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3De)leuqeri%2Fa1&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3De)leuqe%2Fria2&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertas&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertas#/media/File:Statue_of_Liberty_7.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13041" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3264" RevisionGUID="52fa478e-c41e-4da2-bf89-95620ab837da" CreationDate="2018-01-17T18:23:46.203" UserId="2892" Comment="added 224 characters in body" Text="Freedom is definitely an important concept in Ancient Greece, which is reflected in the status of independent city-states throughout it's early history *(prior to Athenian hegemony, Alexander, Roman Empire, etc.)*  The word democracy is based on the Greek [δημοκρατία][1] (dēmokratía) &quot;rule by the people&quot;.  This freedom was, of course, qualified, and only extended fully to landowners.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The goddess [Eleutheria][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See: [ἐλευθερία][2], [ἐλευθ-ερία][3], [ἐλευθ-έρια (festival)][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The name was also an epithet of Artemis, who was quite free in the sense that she was the goddess of the wilderness, and never subject to a husband's rule.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Libertas][5] is the Roman equivalent, and was the inspiration for [Lady Liberty][6].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/democracy&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleutheria&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3De)leuqeri%2Fa1&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3De)leuqe%2Fria2&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertas&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertas#/media/File:Statue_of_Liberty_7.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13042" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3264" RevisionGUID="92d03f3d-d594-4c6d-a6c1-e02414248b49" CreationDate="2018-01-17T18:34:22.450" UserId="2892" Comment="added 422 characters in body" Text="Freedom is definitely an important concept in Ancient Greece, which is reflected in the status of independent city-states throughout it's early history *(prior to Athenian hegemony, Alexander, Roman Empire, etc.)*  The word democracy is based on the Greek [δημοκρατία][1] (dēmokratía) &quot;rule by the people&quot;.  This freedom was, of course, qualified, and only extended fully to landowners.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The goddess [Eleutheria][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See: [ἐλευθερία][2], [ἐλευθ-ερία][3], [ἐλευθ-έρια (festival)][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The name was also an epithet of Artemis, who was quite free in the sense that she was the goddess of the wilderness, and never subject to a husband's rule.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Libertas][5] is the Roman equivalent, and was the inspiration for [Lady Liberty][6].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Eleuthereus][7] is also an epithet of Dionysus, as the one who &quot;sets free&quot;&#xD;&#xA; [Pausanias, *Description of Greece* 1.38.8][8], referring to his ecstatic rites.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/democracy&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleutheria&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3De)leuqeri%2Fa1&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3De)leuqe%2Fria2&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertas&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertas#/media/File:Statue_of_Liberty_7.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D*)eleuqerai%2F&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0160%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D38%3Asection%3D8" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13043" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3264" RevisionGUID="02037fa8-6b4e-40aa-9f83-9a151c1558aa" CreationDate="2018-01-17T18:52:54.457" UserId="2892" Comment="Qualified the language making the link between Artemis, which comes from coins, and added a note about Aphrodite, in the same context." Text="Freedom is definitely an important concept in Ancient Greece, which is reflected in the status of independent city-states throughout it's early history *(prior to Athenian hegemony, Alexander, Roman Empire, etc.)*  The word democracy is based on the Greek [δημοκρατία][1] (dēmokratía) &quot;rule by the people&quot;.  This freedom was, of course, qualified, and only extended fully to landowners.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The goddess [Eleutheria][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See: [ἐλευθερία][2], [ἐλευθ-ερία][3], [ἐλευθ-έρια (festival)][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The name is said to be an epithet of Artemis, who was quite free in the sense that she was the goddess of the wilderness, and never subject to a husband's rule.  Similarly, Eleutheria has been linked to [Aphrodite][5], also quite unrestrainable.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Libertas][6] is the Roman equivalent, and was the inspiration for [Lady Liberty][7].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Eleuthereus][8] is also an epithet of Dionysus, as the one who &quot;sets free&quot;&#xD;&#xA; [Pausanias, *Description of Greece* 1.38.8][9], referring to his ecstatic rites.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/democracy&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleutheria&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3De)leuqeri%2Fa1&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3De)leuqe%2Fria2&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://books.google.com/books?id=O9stAAAAYAAJ&amp;pg=PA30&amp;lpg=PA30&amp;dq=aphrodite%20eleutheria&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=Z6ihEbpyK1&amp;sig=fR2KZXTPnMkFJF7fTDrEbMjvWC4&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjsw8y61N_YAhXPmuAKHanCD9YQ6AEILDAB#v=onepage&amp;q=aphrodite%20eleutheria&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertas&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertas#/media/File:Statue_of_Liberty_7.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D*)eleuqerai%2F&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0160%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D38%3Asection%3D8" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13044" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3257" RevisionGUID="a2605c55-9cee-41c6-91c3-1fcec6d88d72" CreationDate="2018-01-17T20:34:17.300" UserId="2892" Comment="added 107 characters in body" Text="This is a subject of some interest. I address similarities here: [How do Dionysus and Jesus Relate?][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of sacrificing himself for humanity, as in the case of the Christ, I don't really see that element in the Greek canon with Dionysus, except in the idea that wine is a boon for mankind--warms you when cold, consoles you in sorrow, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My understanding is that Christian ethics arise partly out of Ancient Greek humanist ideas (starting with Socrates), and from Hebrew scripture with the idea that &quot;love of the other&quot; is the central tenet [see [Hillel][2] [&quot;the rest is just commentary&quot;][3] and [Leviticus 19:18][4].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Christ takes it to the next level, in actually sacrificing himself for all humans.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We do see many demigods (1 divine parent, 1 mortal parent) in the Greek canon with parallels:&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;-Dionysus as dying/resurrected, sacrament of wine = &quot;resurrection in spirit&quot; &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;-[Heracles self-immolation][5] related to pity, leads to immortality &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;-Achilles self-sacrifice, based on glory, but for the benefit of others  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Heracles and Dionysus are literally &quot;sons of god&quot; because &quot;Dios&quot; (Διός) is the most common epithet for Zeus, not &quot;Ζεύς&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But it is ultimately **[Socrates][6]** who selflessly sacrifices himself for a higher purpose. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I strongly recommend taking a look at his [Apology][7], which isn't an apology at all, but a calling out of the corruption of the power structure of the time. *(Sound familiar? :)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even more important is the [Crito][8], where Socrates, most wise, makes the point that **injustice answered by injustice is not a remedy**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, &quot;turn the other cheek&quot;, even if it means dying for what is right.  For Socrates, like Jesus, setting an example was more important than his own life.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Socrates, like the Christ, sacrificed himself for a higher principle, for the benefit of all mankind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/3089/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_the_Elder&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.jewfaq.org/brother.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://biblehub.com/multi/leviticus/19-18.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2458/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apology_(Plato)&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crito" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13045" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3265" RevisionGUID="90bc82ad-e253-42cf-84ca-ced8afa51ec1" CreationDate="2018-01-17T21:25:06.500" UserId="2892" Text="Take this answer in the spirit of &quot;teaching a person to fish&quot; (as opposed to giving them a single fish.)  The subject you ask about has been much analyzed, researched, and discussed, so it's an excellent subject for a creative endeavor.  But in the same light, as an author, going as deep as possible yourself will yield the best results.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First off, I'd highly recommend reading [Mary Renault](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Renault)'s mytho-historical novels.  [*The Bull from the Sea*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bull_from_the_Sea) recounts Theseus' relationship with the Amazon Queen Hippolyta.  Also worth reading is Robert Graves' [The Golden Fleece&#xD;&#xA;(also titled Hercules my Shipmate)][1], which touches on the Amazons' territory, and involves Medea, who comes from a nearby region.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Amazon wiki is decent, and should provide a good starting point for more serious research.  [Look at the citations for any given info, and go to the source material.]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Herotodus would be a great place to start, specifically [Herodotus Book 4: Melpomene][2].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Pausanias, likewise, will be useful. For instance, his mention of the [Artemis at Ephesus][3], and recounting of the [description of Hippolyta's death][4].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Plutarch writes about them in [*Pompey*][5] *&quot;The Amazons inhabit the parts of the Caucasus mountains that reach down to the Hyrcanian Sea, and they do not border on the Albani, but Gelae and Leges dwell between. With these peoples, who meet them by the river Thermodon, [the Amazons] consort for two months every year; then they go away and live by themselves.&quot;*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-Pseudo-Plutarch, *De fluviis* has a nice mention in [XIV. Tanais][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- This lexical entry for [Ἀμαζών][7] *(Amazown)* mentions the legendary single-mastectomy, utilized by the Amazons to facilitate use of the bow. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Iliad also mentions the Amazons in many places, and, because this is a work of fiction, and modern or post-modern, you definitely want to pick up a copy of Robert Graves' [The Greek Myths][8], which has an index entry for the Amazons, a comprehensive survey of their mentions in the canon, robust citations to the source material, and wonderful, creative speculation on the meaning of symbols in the spirit of [Frazer][9].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.historicalnovels.info/Golden-Fleece.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hh/hh4110.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0160%3Abook%3D4%3Achapter%3D31%3Asection%3D8&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0160%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D41%3Asection%3D7&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:abo:tlg,0007,045:35&amp;lang=original&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0400%3Achapter%3D14&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3D*)amazw%2Fn&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/820461.The_Greek_Myths&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_George_Frazer" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13046" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3265" RevisionGUID="c489aaec-8c2e-42ff-a1ca-131db31c2ef2" CreationDate="2018-01-17T21:57:54.643" UserId="2892" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="Take this answer in the spirit of &quot;teaching a person to fish&quot; (as opposed to giving them a single fish.)  The subject you ask about has been much analyzed, researched, and discussed, so it's an excellent subject for a creative endeavor.  But in the same light, as an author, going as deep as possible yourself will yield the best results.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First off, I'd highly recommend reading [Mary Renault](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Renault)'s mytho-historical novels.  [*The Bull from the Sea*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bull_from_the_Sea) recounts Theseus' relationship with the Amazon Queen Hippolyta.  Also worth reading is Robert Graves' [*The Golden Fleece*&#xD;&#xA;(also titled *Hercules my Shipmate*)][1], which touches on the Amazons' territory, and involves Medea, who comes from a nearby region.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Amazon wiki is decent, and should provide a good starting point for more serious research.  [Look at the citations for any given info, and go to the source material.]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Herotodus would be a great place to start, specifically [Herodotus Book 4: Melpomene][2].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Pausanias, likewise, will be useful. For instance, his mention of the [Artemis at Ephesus][3], and recounting of the [description of Hippolyta's death][4].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Plutarch writes about them in [*Pompey*][5] *&quot;The Amazons inhabit the parts of the Caucasus mountains that reach down to the Hyrcanian Sea, and they do not border on the Albani, but Gelae and Leges dwell between. With these peoples, who meet them by the river Thermodon, [the Amazons] consort for two months every year; then they go away and live by themselves.&quot;*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-Pseudo-Plutarch, *De fluviis* has a nice mention in [XIV. Tanais][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- This lexical entry for [Ἀμαζών][7] *(Amazown)* mentions the legendary single-mastectomy, utilized by the Amazons to facilitate use of the bow. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Iliad also mentions the Amazons in many places, and, because this is a work of fiction, and modern or post-modern, you definitely want to pick up a copy of Robert Graves' [The Greek Myths][8], which has an index entry for the Amazons, a comprehensive survey of their mentions in the canon, robust citations to the source material, and wonderful, creative speculation on the meaning of symbols in the spirit of [Frazer][9].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.historicalnovels.info/Golden-Fleece.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hh/hh4110.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0160%3Abook%3D4%3Achapter%3D31%3Asection%3D8&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0160%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D41%3Asection%3D7&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:abo:tlg,0007,045:35&amp;lang=original&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0400%3Achapter%3D14&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3D*)amazw%2Fn&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/820461.The_Greek_Myths&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_George_Frazer" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13047" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3266" RevisionGUID="bb99a5f2-eedb-40e2-ae5c-d0869ca857a5" CreationDate="2018-01-18T04:00:03.463" UserId="4622" Text="I am trying to figure out whether the Anglo-Saxons had much of a belief in faeries or had an equivalent like elves or wights. I'm finding it pretty hard to disentangle what is actually English folklore and what is the legacy of the Victorians!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13048" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3266" RevisionGUID="bb99a5f2-eedb-40e2-ae5c-d0869ca857a5" CreationDate="2018-01-18T04:00:03.463" UserId="4622" Text="Anglo-Saxon and Faeries" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13049" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3266" RevisionGUID="bb99a5f2-eedb-40e2-ae5c-d0869ca857a5" CreationDate="2018-01-18T04:00:03.463" UserId="4622" Text="|mythical-creatures|fairies|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13050" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3267" RevisionGUID="7da6cac0-48f6-4141-9abf-5fcfd239796b" CreationDate="2018-01-18T05:44:27.880" UserId="4623" Text="Well, I know the State of Liberty is modeled partly after the Greek Goddess Eleutheria. Adding to the post above me: she is supposed to personify liberty. She is supposed to be related to the Roman Goddess Libertas, who was said to modeled after her. She was the goddess people brought their slaves to before they freed them. I found the information here: https://mythologymatters.wordpress.com/2015/07/02/independence-day-mythology-our-goddess-liberty/ (The author is Arthur Gorge a cultural historian and mythologist) " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13051" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3268" RevisionGUID="5bd5e80c-557b-43ff-afb1-730e3f705367" CreationDate="2018-01-18T05:47:57.797" UserId="4623" Text="Hina depending on where you get the story could be the grandmother in other Polynesian cultures, but Hina yes in Hawaiian mythology Hina is Maui's mother. You can see relations of Maui to Hina in this story by W. D. Westervelt in *Legends of Maui:* http://www.sacred-texts.com/pac/maui/maui04.htm " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13052" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3269" RevisionGUID="f044e159-6cc5-43cd-b891-362bd71a37bd" CreationDate="2018-01-18T05:55:42.873" UserId="4623" Text="Well you could read the Kumulipo, Papa and Wākea werenʻt the first beings, but Pō and I think Laʻilaʻi. If you want a simpler shorter version starting with Papa (Earth mother) and Wākea (Sky Father) this is what I learned from my kumu:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Cnp4A.png&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think Rangi is not part of the Hawaiian version.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hāloa is the first man who all Hawaiians descended from and this is why the islands, taro and the people are all related and this is why people need to take care of the land, who is family." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13053" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3267" RevisionGUID="a6cebe7c-aff5-46b7-b429-1bd98db7ab1e" CreationDate="2018-01-18T11:39:20.067" UserId="108" Comment="edited body" Text="Well, I know the State of Liberty is modeled partly after the Greek Goddess Eleutheria. Adding to DukeZhou's answer: she is supposed to personify liberty. She is supposed to be related to the Roman Goddess Libertas, who was said to modeled after her. She was the goddess people brought their slaves to before they freed them. I found the information here: https://mythologymatters.wordpress.com/2015/07/02/independence-day-mythology-our-goddess-liberty/ (The author is Arthur Gorge a cultural historian and mythologist) " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13054" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3266" RevisionGUID="496aa664-97b3-4782-a3f6-e1a90fc35d0b" CreationDate="2018-01-18T11:56:49.423" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|fairies|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13055" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3267" RevisionGUID="4bee6b01-2292-467a-87a5-aa89489cd732" CreationDate="2018-01-18T17:18:25.390" UserId="2892" Comment="Supplemented the answer with quotes from the article on this topics covered in the answer, including links." Text="As DukeZhou mentions, the Statue of Liberty is partly modeled on the Greek Goddess Eleutheria, who personifies liberty. The Goddess, Libertas, is the Roman variant. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lady Liberty’s name comes from the Roman goddess Libertas, but she had a Greek precursor, the goddess Eleutheria (meaning “freedom” or “liberty” in Greek). Zeus in his role as protector of political freedom also was known as Zeus Eleutherios (“Zeus the Liberator”), in whose name a [stoa at the Agora in Athens][1] was built after deliverance from the Persians. Eleutheria was actually an epithet of Artemis, for whom we have much mythology, but no mythology in her aspect as Eleutheria survives, only her face on some coins.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Independence Day Mythology: Our Goddess Liberty][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This was the goddess people brought their slaves to before freeing them: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Having escorted the Republic into being, her role then evolved into one of overseeing the manumission of slaves. In the city of Rome, the master would take his slave before the Temple of Liberty, where a Roman official pronounced the slave free while touching him with a rod called the [vindicta][3], in honor of [Vindicus][4].&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [ibid.][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoa_of_Zeus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://mythologymatters.wordpress.com/2015/07/02/independence-day-mythology-our-goddess-liberty/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0060%3Aentry%3Dvindicta&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aentry%3DVindicius" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13056" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3257" RevisionGUID="f9b922aa-0037-40d0-9a64-d4f80e46366d" CreationDate="2018-01-18T18:37:33.263" UserId="2892" Comment="added 4159 characters in body" Text="This is a subject of some interest. I address similarities here: [How do Dionysus and Jesus Relate?][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of sacrificing himself for humanity, as in the case of the Christ, I don't really see that element in the Greek canon with Dionysus, except in the idea that wine is a boon for mankind--warms you when cold, consoles you in sorrow, gives you courage when afraid, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But when a man has reached the age of forty, he may join in the convivial gatherings and invoke Dionysus, above all other gods, inviting his presence at the rite (which is also the recreation) of the elders, which he bestowed on mankind as a medicine potent against the crabbedness of old age, that thereby we men may renew our youth, and that, through forgetfulness of care, the temper of our souls.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Plato &quot;Laws&quot;, [Book 2][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But the gift of Dionysus is also double edged:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And is not this exactly the opposite of the potion described just now? For, first, it makes the person who drinks it more jovial than he was before, and the more he imbibes it, the more he becomes filled with high hopes and a sense of power, till finally, puffed up with conceit, he abounds in every kind of licence of speech and action and every kind of audacity, without a scruple as to what he says or what he does. Everyone, I imagine, would agree that this is so.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Plato &quot;Laws&quot;, [Book 1][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My understanding is that Christian ethics arise partly out of Ancient Greek humanist ideas (starting with Socrates[A]), and from Hebrew scripture with the idea that &quot;love of the other&quot; is the central tenet [see [Hillel][4] [&quot;the rest is just commentary&quot;][5] and [Leviticus 19:18][6].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Christ takes it to the next level, in actually sacrificing himself for all humans.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Ancient Greek canon, We do see several demigods (one divine parent, one mortal parent) in the Greek canon with parallels:&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Dionysus as dying/resurrected, sacrament of wine = &quot;resurrection [in spirit][7]&quot; &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - [Heracles self-immolation][8] related to pity (*[pietà][9]*), leads to immortality &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - Achilles self-sacrifice, based on glory, but for the benefit of the Achaeans  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Heracles and Dionysus are literally &quot;sons of god&quot; because &quot;Dios&quot; (Διός) is the most common epithet for Zeus, not &quot;Ζεύς&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Achilles' father is a mortal Peleus, married to the goddess Themis because of a prophecy that &quot;her son would be greater than his father.&quot;  Zeus made this marriage to avoid being overthrown, but in some sense he failed, in that the Iliad, as a subversive text, diminishes the dignity of the Olympians and elevates the dignity of man--worship of the Olympians has faded, but the Iliad is still celebrated.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hector, in particular, is shown in the noblest light, and his body is [incorruptible][10] after death:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aphrodite, goddess of love, kept dogs from him by day and night alike, and [with oil anointed him][11], rose-sweet, ambrosial, to the end that Achilles might not tear him as he dragged him. And over him Phoebus Apollo, son of god, drew a dark cloud from heaven to the plain, and covered all the place whereon the dead man lay, lest ere the time the might of the sun should shrivel his flesh round about on his sinews and limbs.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Homer, [*Iliad*, Book 23][12]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Redfield writes that Hector is &quot;a [martyr][13] to loyalties, a witness to the things of this world, a hero ready to die for the precious imperfections of ordinary life.&quot; *[[The Tragedy of Hector][14]]*&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**SOCRATES**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Returning to Plato, it is ultimately [Socrates][15] who selflessly sacrifices himself for all mankind. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I strongly recommend taking a look at his [Apology][16], which isn't an apology at all, but a calling out of the corruption of the power structure of the time. *(Sound familiar? :)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even more important is the [Crito][17], where Socrates, most wise, makes the point that **injustice answered by injustice is not a remedy**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, &quot;turn the other cheek&quot;, even if it means dying for what is right.  For Socrates, like Jesus, setting an example was more important than his own life.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;[A] *&quot;Socrates ... is neither the founder of the theory of ideas nor a legendary figure but rather a practical moral teacher mainly concerned with the cultivation of man, his self-development, and self-unfolding into full humanity. Socrates asking questions on man's nature and trying to answer them without an appeal to transcendent forms is what Versenyi believes most authentically Socratic and what he has chosen to call Socratic humanism. As the author himself recognizes there is nothing revolutionary about this view.&quot;* &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Socratic Humanism (review)][18]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/3089/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0166%3Abook%3D2%3Asection%3D666b&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0166%3Abook%3D1%3Asection%3D649b&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_the_Elder&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.jewfaq.org/brother.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://biblehub.com/multi/leviticus/19-18.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distilled_beverage&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2458/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/piet%C3%A0#Etymology_2&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorruptibility&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anointing_of_Jesus&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D23%3Acard%3D161&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/martyr#Latin&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://books.google.com/books?id=OoMPwfGHO2MC&amp;pg=PR11&amp;lpg=PR11&amp;dq=%22martyr%20to%20loyalties,%20a%20witness%20to%20the%20things%20of%20this%20world,%20a%20hero%20ready%20to%20die%20for%20the%20precious%20imperfections%20of%20ordinary%20life.%22%20redfield&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=cKLw4ayiiS&amp;sig=6krYbupqb5EpHTgzAKNx66P46EM&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwic5bnFkuLYAhWSUN8KHQH0A9gQ6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&amp;q=%22martyr%20to%20loyalties%2C%20a%20witness%20to%20the%20things%20of%20this%20world%2C%20a%20hero%20ready%20to%20die%20for%20the%20precious%20imperfections%20of%20ordinary%20life.%22%20redfield&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apology_(Plato)&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crito&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://muse.jhu.edu/article/229488/pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13057" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3257" RevisionGUID="2eb8d41b-e3f8-474a-ac31-4f3ab6b08761" CreationDate="2018-01-18T19:02:40.930" UserId="2892" Comment="added 4159 characters in body" Text="This is a subject of some interest. I address similarities here: [How do Dionysus and Jesus Relate?][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of sacrificing himself for humanity, as in the case of the Christ, I don't really see that element in the Greek canon with Dionysus, except in the idea that wine is a boon for mankind--warms you when cold, consoles you in sorrow, gives you courage when afraid, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But when a man has reached the age of forty, he may join in the convivial gatherings and invoke Dionysus, above all other gods, inviting his presence at the rite (which is also the recreation) of the elders, which he bestowed on mankind as a medicine potent against the crabbedness of old age, that thereby we men may renew our youth, and that, through forgetfulness of care, the temper of our souls.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Plato &quot;Laws&quot;, [Book 2][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But the gift of Dionysus is also double edged:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And is not this exactly the opposite of the potion described just now? For, first, it makes the person who drinks it more jovial than he was before, and the more he imbibes it, the more he becomes filled with high hopes and a sense of power, till finally, puffed up with conceit, he abounds in every kind of licence of speech and action and every kind of audacity, without a scruple as to what he says or what he does. Everyone, I imagine, would agree that this is so.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Plato &quot;Laws&quot;, [Book 1][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So [Zagreus][4] (Dionysus) is [violently torn apart][5] by Titans, but it is involuntary.  It's related to pity, but that element is most emphasized in the *[Bacchae][6]* of Euripides, in the person of [Pentheus][7] (literally &quot;[divine agony][8]&quot;) who dies in the most horrific way imaginable so that Thebes may eventually be redeemed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sparagmos (death by dismemberment) is followed by [omophagia][9], the eating of the blood flesh, in both the story of Zagreus and the *Bacchae*. [See *East Coker&quot;[B]]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, my understanding is that Christian ethics arise partly out of Ancient Greek humanist ideas (starting with Socrates[A]), and from Hebrew scripture with the idea that &quot;love of the other&quot; is the central tenet [see [Hillel][10] [&quot;the rest is just commentary&quot;][11] and [Leviticus 19:18][12].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Christ takes it to the next level, in actually sacrificing himself for all humans.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Ancient Greek canon, We do see several demigods (one divine parent, one mortal parent) in the Greek canon with parallels:&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Dionysus as dying/resurrected, sacrament of wine = &quot;resurrection [in spirit][13]&quot; &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - [Heracles self-immolation][14] related to pity (*[pietà][15]*), leads to immortality &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - Achilles self-sacrifice, based on glory, but for the benefit of the Achaeans  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Heracles and Dionysus are literally &quot;sons of god&quot; because &quot;Dios&quot; (Διός) is the most common epithet for Zeus, not &quot;Ζεύς&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Achilles' father is a mortal Peleus, married to the goddess Themis because of a prophecy that &quot;her son would be greater than his father.&quot;  Zeus made this marriage to avoid being overthrown, but in some sense he failed, in that the Iliad, as a subversive text, diminishes the dignity of the Olympians and elevates the dignity of man--worship of the Olympians has faded, but the Iliad is still celebrated.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hector, in particular, is shown in the noblest light, and his body is [incorruptible][16] after death:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aphrodite, goddess of love, kept dogs from him by day and night alike, and [with oil anointed him][17], rose-sweet, ambrosial, to the end that Achilles might not tear him as he dragged him. And over him Phoebus Apollo, son of god, drew a dark cloud from heaven to the plain, and covered all the place whereon the dead man lay, lest ere the time the might of the sun should shrivel his flesh round about on his sinews and limbs.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Homer, [*Iliad*, Book 23][18]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Redfield writes that Hector is &quot;a [martyr][19] to loyalties, a witness to the things of this world, a hero ready to die for the precious imperfections of ordinary life.&quot; *[[The Tragedy of Hector][20]]*&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**SOCRATES**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Returning to Plato, it is ultimately [Socrates][21] who selflessly sacrifices himself for all mankind. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I strongly recommend taking a look at his [Apology][22], which isn't an apology at all, but a calling out of the corruption of the power structure of the time. *(Sound familiar? :)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even more important is the [Crito][23], where Socrates, most wise, makes the point that **injustice answered by injustice is not a remedy**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, &quot;turn the other cheek&quot;, even if it means dying for what is right.  For Socrates, like Jesus, setting an example was more important than his own life.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**CONCLUSION**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unlike Dionysus, whose sacrifice is *involuntary*, Socrates' is voluntary. So while there are physical parallels between Dionysus and Jesus, the moral dimension of self-sacrifice in Greek mythology arises out of the Iliad, with Hector in particular, and finds its fullest expression in Socrates. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;NOTES&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[A] *&quot;Socrates ... is neither the founder of the theory of ideas nor a legendary figure but rather a practical moral teacher mainly concerned with the cultivation of man, his self-development, and self-unfolding into full humanity. Socrates asking questions on man's nature and trying to answer them without an appeal to transcendent forms is what Versenyi believes most authentically Socratic and what he has chosen to call Socratic humanism. As the author himself recognizes there is nothing revolutionary about this view.&quot;* &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Socratic Humanism (review)][24]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[B] From East Coker, Four Quartets:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*&quot;The dripping blood our only drink,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The bloody flesh our only food:&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In spite of which we like to think&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;That we are sound, substantial flesh and blood—&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Again, in spite of that, we call this Friday good.&quot;*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here, Eliot draws a parallel between Dionysus and the sacraments of Wine and Bread.  The bread is literally the body of god.  [See also: [John Barleycorn\]][25]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/3089/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0166%3Abook%3D2%3Asection%3D666b&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0166%3Abook%3D1%3Asection%3D649b&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreus&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparagmos&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bacchae#Plot&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentheus&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passion_of_Jesus&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omophagia&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_the_Elder&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.jewfaq.org/brother.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://biblehub.com/multi/leviticus/19-18.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distilled_beverage&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2458/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/piet%C3%A0#Etymology_2&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorruptibility&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anointing_of_Jesus&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D23%3Acard%3D161&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/martyr#Latin&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://books.google.com/books?id=OoMPwfGHO2MC&amp;pg=PR11&amp;lpg=PR11&amp;dq=%22martyr%20to%20loyalties,%20a%20witness%20to%20the%20things%20of%20this%20world,%20a%20hero%20ready%20to%20die%20for%20the%20precious%20imperfections%20of%20ordinary%20life.%22%20redfield&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=cKLw4ayiiS&amp;sig=6krYbupqb5EpHTgzAKNx66P46EM&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwic5bnFkuLYAhWSUN8KHQH0A9gQ6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&amp;q=%22martyr%20to%20loyalties%2C%20a%20witness%20to%20the%20things%20of%20this%20world%2C%20a%20hero%20ready%20to%20die%20for%20the%20precious%20imperfections%20of%20ordinary%20life.%22%20redfield&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apology_(Plato)&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crito&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: https://muse.jhu.edu/article/229488/pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Barleycorn" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13058" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3257" RevisionGUID="c1d34e97-6e12-4ab6-845e-7ac3d67eb958" CreationDate="2018-01-18T19:18:59.353" UserId="2892" Comment="Added an abstract because the answer is long and detailed" Text="This is a subject of some interest. I address similarities here: [How do Dionysus and Jesus Relate?][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**ABSTRACT: There are undeniable parallels between Dionysus and the Christ, but these are mainly physical, and there are important divergences.  The moral dimension of self-sacrifice in the Greek and Roman canon evolves over time, from Homer (*Iliad*) to Ovid (*Hercules*), and finds its fullest expression, per sacrifice for all humanity, in Plato (the *Crito*).**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of sacrificing himself for humanity, as in the case of the Christ, I don't really see that element in the Greek canon with Dionysus, except in the idea that wine is a boon for mankind--warms you when cold, consoles you in sorrow, gives you courage when afraid, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But when a man has reached the age of forty, he may join in the convivial gatherings and invoke Dionysus, above all other gods, inviting his presence at the rite (which is also the recreation) of the elders, which he bestowed on mankind as a medicine potent against the crabbedness of old age, that thereby we men may renew our youth, and that, through forgetfulness of care, the temper of our souls.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Plato &quot;Laws&quot;, [Book 2][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But the gift of Dionysus is also double edged:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And is not this exactly the opposite of the potion described just now? For, first, it makes the person who drinks it more jovial than he was before, and the more he imbibes it, the more he becomes filled with high hopes and a sense of power, till finally, puffed up with conceit, he abounds in every kind of licence of speech and action and every kind of audacity, without a scruple as to what he says or what he does. Everyone, I imagine, would agree that this is so.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Plato &quot;Laws&quot;, [Book 1][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So [Zagreus][4] (Dionysus) is [violently torn apart][5] by Titans, but it is involuntary.  It's related to pity, but that element is most emphasized in the *[Bacchae][6]* of Euripides, in the person of [Pentheus][7] (literally &quot;[divine agony][8]&quot;) who dies in the most horrific way imaginable so that Thebes may eventually be redeemed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sparagmos (death by dismemberment) is followed by [omophagia][9], the eating of the blood flesh, in both the story of Zagreus and the *Bacchae*. (See *East Coker* [B])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Important to note that **Dionysus in the *Bacchae* is depicted as having horns.**  This is contrary to portrayals of Jesus, but does show up in [Michelangelo's very famous sculpture of Moses][10].  [Fauns][11], associated with Dionysus through [Silenus][12], likewise have horns.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My understanding is that Christian ethics arise partly out of Ancient Greek humanist ideas (starting with Socrates[A]), and from Hebrew scripture with the idea that &quot;love of the other&quot; is the central tenet [see [Hillel][13] [&quot;the rest is just commentary&quot;][14] and [Leviticus 19:18][15].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Christ takes it to the next level, in actually sacrificing himself for all humans.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Ancient Greek canon, We do see several demigods (one divine parent, one mortal parent) in the Greek canon with parallels:&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Dionysus as dying/resurrected, sacrament of wine = &quot;resurrection [in spirit][16]&quot; &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - [Heracles self-immolation][17] related to pity (*[pietà][18]*), leads to immortality &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - Achilles self-sacrifice, based on glory, but for the benefit of the Achaeans  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Heracles and Dionysus are literally &quot;sons of god&quot; because &quot;Dios&quot; (Διός) is the most common epithet for Zeus, not &quot;Ζεύς&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Achilles' father is a mortal Peleus, married to the goddess Themis because of a prophecy that &quot;her son would be greater than his father.&quot;  Zeus made this marriage to avoid being overthrown, but in some sense he failed, in that the Iliad, as a subversive text, diminishes the dignity of the Olympians and elevates the dignity of man--worship of the Olympians has faded, but the Iliad is still celebrated.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hector, in particular, is shown in the noblest light, and his body is [incorruptible][19] after death:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aphrodite, goddess of love, kept dogs from him by day and night alike, and [with oil anointed him][20], rose-sweet, ambrosial, to the end that Achilles might not tear him as he dragged him. And over him Phoebus Apollo, son of god, drew a dark cloud from heaven to the plain, and covered all the place whereon the dead man lay, lest ere the time the might of the sun should shrivel his flesh round about on his sinews and limbs.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Homer, [*Iliad*, Book 23][21]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Redfield writes that Hector is &quot;a [martyr][22] to loyalties, a witness to the things of this world, a hero ready to die for the precious imperfections of ordinary life.&quot; *[[The Tragedy of Hector][23]]*&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**SOCRATES**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Returning to Plato, it is ultimately [Socrates][24] who selflessly sacrifices himself for all mankind. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I strongly recommend taking a look at his [Apology][25], which isn't an apology at all, but a calling out of the corruption of the power structure of the time. *(Sound familiar? :)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even more important is the [Crito][26], where Socrates, most wise, makes the point that **injustice answered by injustice is not a remedy**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, &quot;turn the other cheek&quot;, even if it means dying for what is right.  For Socrates, like Jesus, setting an example was more important than his own life.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**CONCLUSION**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unlike Dionysus, whose sacrifice is *involuntary*, Socrates' is voluntary. So while there are physical parallels between Dionysus and Jesus, the moral dimension of self-sacrifice in Greek mythology arises out of the Iliad, with Hector in particular, and finds its fullest expression in Socrates. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;NOTES&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[A] *&quot;Socrates ... is neither the founder of the theory of ideas nor a legendary figure but rather a practical moral teacher mainly concerned with the cultivation of man, his self-development, and self-unfolding into full humanity. Socrates asking questions on man's nature and trying to answer them without an appeal to transcendent forms is what Versenyi believes most authentically Socratic and what he has chosen to call Socratic humanism. As the author himself recognizes there is nothing revolutionary about this view.&quot;* &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Socratic Humanism (review)][27]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[B] From East Coker, Four Quartets:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*&quot;The dripping blood our only drink,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The bloody flesh our only food:&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In spite of which we like to think&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;That we are sound, substantial flesh and blood—&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Again, in spite of that, we call this Friday good.&quot;*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here, Eliot draws a parallel between Dionysus and the sacraments of Wine and Bread.  The bread is literally the body of god.  [See also: [John Barleycorn\]][28]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/3089/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0166%3Abook%3D2%3Asection%3D666b&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0166%3Abook%3D1%3Asection%3D649b&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreus&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparagmos&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bacchae#Plot&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentheus&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passion_of_Jesus&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omophagia&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_(Michelangelo)#/media/File:%27Moses%27_by_Michelangelo_JBU310.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faun&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silenus&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_the_Elder&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: http://www.jewfaq.org/brother.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: http://biblehub.com/multi/leviticus/19-18.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distilled_beverage&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2458/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/piet%C3%A0#Etymology_2&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorruptibility&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anointing_of_Jesus&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D23%3Acard%3D161&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/martyr#Latin&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: https://books.google.com/books?id=OoMPwfGHO2MC&amp;pg=PR11&amp;lpg=PR11&amp;dq=%22martyr%20to%20loyalties,%20a%20witness%20to%20the%20things%20of%20this%20world,%20a%20hero%20ready%20to%20die%20for%20the%20precious%20imperfections%20of%20ordinary%20life.%22%20redfield&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=cKLw4ayiiS&amp;sig=6krYbupqb5EpHTgzAKNx66P46EM&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwic5bnFkuLYAhWSUN8KHQH0A9gQ6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&amp;q=%22martyr%20to%20loyalties%2C%20a%20witness%20to%20the%20things%20of%20this%20world%2C%20a%20hero%20ready%20to%20die%20for%20the%20precious%20imperfections%20of%20ordinary%20life.%22%20redfield&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apology_(Plato)&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crito&#xD;&#xA;  [27]: https://muse.jhu.edu/article/229488/pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [28]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Barleycorn" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13059" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3257" RevisionGUID="1b84ed73-fa9b-43d4-a714-fcefde65eb28" CreationDate="2018-01-18T19:52:45.590" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="This is a subject of some interest. I address similarities here: [How do Dionysus and Jesus Relate?][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**SUMMARY: There are undeniable parallels between Dionysus and the Christ, but these are mainly physical, and there are important divergences.  The moral dimension of self-sacrifice in the Greek and Roman canon evolves over time, from Homer (*Iliad*) to Ovid (*Hercules*), and finds its fullest expression, per sacrifice for all humanity, in Plato (the *Crito*).**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of sacrificing himself for humanity, as in the case of the Christ, I don't really see that element in the Greek canon with Dionysus, except in the idea that wine is a boon for mankind--warms you when cold, consoles you in sorrow, gives you courage when afraid, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But when a man has reached the age of forty, he may join in the convivial gatherings and invoke Dionysus, above all other gods, inviting his presence at the rite (which is also the recreation) of the elders, which he bestowed on mankind as a medicine potent against the crabbedness of old age, that thereby we men may renew our youth, and that, through forgetfulness of care, the temper of our souls.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Plato &quot;Laws&quot;, [Book 2][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But the gift of Dionysus is also double edged:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And is not this exactly the opposite of the potion described just now? For, first, it makes the person who drinks it more jovial than he was before, and the more he imbibes it, the more he becomes filled with high hopes and a sense of power, till finally, puffed up with conceit, he abounds in every kind of licence of speech and action and every kind of audacity, without a scruple as to what he says or what he does. Everyone, I imagine, would agree that this is so.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Plato &quot;Laws&quot;, [Book 1][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So [Zagreus][4] (Dionysus) is [violently torn apart][5] by Titans, but it is involuntary.  It's related to pity, but that element is most emphasized in the *[Bacchae][6]* of Euripides, in the person of [Pentheus][7] (literally &quot;[divine agony][8]&quot;) who dies in the most horrific way imaginable so that Thebes may eventually be redeemed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sparagmos (death by dismemberment) is followed by [omophagia][9], the eating of the blood flesh, in both the story of Zagreus and the *Bacchae*. (See *East Coker* [B])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Important to note that **Dionysus in the *Bacchae* is depicted as having horns.**  This is contrary to portrayals of Jesus, but does show up in [Michelangelo's very famous sculpture of Moses][10].  [Fauns][11], associated with Dionysus through [Silenus][12], likewise have horns.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My understanding is that Christian ethics arise partly out of Ancient Greek humanist ideas (starting with Socrates[A]), and from Hebrew scripture with the idea that &quot;love of the other&quot; is the central tenet [see [Hillel][13] [&quot;the rest is just commentary&quot;][14] and [Leviticus 19:18][15].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Christ takes it to the next level, in actually sacrificing himself for all humans.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Ancient Greek canon, We do see several demigods (one divine parent, one mortal parent) in the Greek canon with parallels:&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Dionysus as dying/resurrected, sacrament of wine = &quot;resurrection [in spirit][16]&quot; &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - [Heracles self-immolation][17] related to pity (*[pietà][18]*), leads to immortality &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - Achilles self-sacrifice, based on glory, but for the benefit of the Achaeans  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Heracles and Dionysus are literally &quot;sons of god&quot; because &quot;Dios&quot; (Διός) is the most common epithet for Zeus, not &quot;Ζεύς&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Achilles' father is a mortal Peleus, married to the goddess Themis because of a prophecy that &quot;her son would be greater than his father.&quot;  Zeus made this marriage to avoid being overthrown, but in some sense he failed, in that the Iliad, as a subversive text, diminishes the dignity of the Olympians and elevates the dignity of man--worship of the Olympians has faded, but the Iliad is still celebrated.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hector, in particular, is shown in the noblest light, and his body is [incorruptible][19] after death:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aphrodite, goddess of love, kept dogs from him by day and night alike, and [with oil anointed him][20], rose-sweet, ambrosial, to the end that Achilles might not tear him as he dragged him. And over him Phoebus Apollo, son of god, drew a dark cloud from heaven to the plain, and covered all the place whereon the dead man lay, lest ere the time the might of the sun should shrivel his flesh round about on his sinews and limbs.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Homer, [*Iliad*, Book 23][21]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Redfield writes that Hector is &quot;a [martyr][22] to loyalties, a witness to the things of this world, a hero ready to die for the precious imperfections of ordinary life.&quot; *[[The Tragedy of Hector][23]]*&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**SOCRATES**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Returning to Plato, it is ultimately [Socrates][24] who selflessly sacrifices himself for all mankind. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I strongly recommend taking a look at his [Apology][25], which isn't an apology at all, but a calling out of the corruption of the power structure of the time. *(Sound familiar? :)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even more important is the [Crito][26], where Socrates, most wise, makes the point that **injustice answered by injustice is not a remedy**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, &quot;turn the other cheek&quot;, even if it means dying for what is right.  For Socrates, like Jesus, setting an example was more important than his own life.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**CONCLUSION**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unlike Dionysus, whose sacrifice is *involuntary*, Socrates' is voluntary. So while there are physical parallels between Dionysus and Jesus, the moral dimension of self-sacrifice in Greek mythology arises out of the Iliad, with Hector in particular, and finds its fullest expression in Socrates. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;NOTES&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[A] *&quot;Socrates ... is neither the founder of the theory of ideas nor a legendary figure but rather a practical moral teacher mainly concerned with the cultivation of man, his self-development, and self-unfolding into full humanity. Socrates asking questions on man's nature and trying to answer them without an appeal to transcendent forms is what Versenyi believes most authentically Socratic and what he has chosen to call Socratic humanism. As the author himself recognizes there is nothing revolutionary about this view.&quot;* &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Socratic Humanism (review)][27]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[B] From East Coker, Four Quartets:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*&quot;The dripping blood our only drink,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The bloody flesh our only food:&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In spite of which we like to think&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;That we are sound, substantial flesh and blood—&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Again, in spite of that, we call this Friday good.&quot;*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here, Eliot draws a parallel between Dionysus and the sacraments of Wine and Bread.  The bread is literally the body of god.  [See also: [John Barleycorn\]][28]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/3089/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0166%3Abook%3D2%3Asection%3D666b&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0166%3Abook%3D1%3Asection%3D649b&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreus&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparagmos&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bacchae#Plot&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentheus&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passion_of_Jesus&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omophagia&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_(Michelangelo)#/media/File:%27Moses%27_by_Michelangelo_JBU310.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faun&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silenus&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_the_Elder&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: http://www.jewfaq.org/brother.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: http://biblehub.com/multi/leviticus/19-18.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distilled_beverage&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2458/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/piet%C3%A0#Etymology_2&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorruptibility&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anointing_of_Jesus&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D23%3Acard%3D161&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/martyr#Latin&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: https://books.google.com/books?id=OoMPwfGHO2MC&amp;pg=PR11&amp;lpg=PR11&amp;dq=%22martyr%20to%20loyalties,%20a%20witness%20to%20the%20things%20of%20this%20world,%20a%20hero%20ready%20to%20die%20for%20the%20precious%20imperfections%20of%20ordinary%20life.%22%20redfield&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=cKLw4ayiiS&amp;sig=6krYbupqb5EpHTgzAKNx66P46EM&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwic5bnFkuLYAhWSUN8KHQH0A9gQ6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&amp;q=%22martyr%20to%20loyalties%2C%20a%20witness%20to%20the%20things%20of%20this%20world%2C%20a%20hero%20ready%20to%20die%20for%20the%20precious%20imperfections%20of%20ordinary%20life.%22%20redfield&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apology_(Plato)&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crito&#xD;&#xA;  [27]: https://muse.jhu.edu/article/229488/pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [28]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Barleycorn" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13061" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3270" RevisionGUID="bc5d19d4-1b27-4add-b4f2-d87a0d64b7b1" CreationDate="2018-01-19T10:51:13.477" UserId="1317" Text="I certainly hope you weren't looking for Tolkien Elves or Santa's Helpers. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;[Elves](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elf)&quot; appear to be a part of the [pagan Anglo-Saxon belief system](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_paganism); the word is Germanic in origin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, it's hard to tell the nature of ancient Germanic elves because all of the written references were produced later, by Christians. &#xD;&#xA;Literacy in Britain at that time was mostly restricted to Christian clerics. And to them, elves were creatures of Satan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We have no less an authority than J.R.R. Tolkien himself:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In all Old English poetry ‘elves’ (ylfe) occurs once only, in Beowulf, associated with trolls, giants, and the Undead, as the accursed offspring of Cain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; -_Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien_, #236&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a reference to the very first chapter of _Beowulf_, which concludes with a diatribe on the ancestry of the monster Grendel:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Þanon untydras ealle onwocon, &#xD;&#xA; _([Of Cain] awoke all that woeful breed)_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;eotenas ond ***ylfe*** ond orcneas,&#xD;&#xA; _(Ettins and elves and evil-spirits)_&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;swylce gigantas, þa wið gode wunnon&#xD;&#xA; _(as well as the giants that warred with God)_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;lange þrage; he him ðæs lean forgeald.&#xD;&#xA; _(weary while: but their wage was paid them)_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-_(Text and translation from [the Beowulf project](https://www.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~beowulf/main.html) at McMaster University)_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even this single line from Beowulf is referenced to Biblical mythology! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The British Library](http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/digitisedmanuscripts/2016/01/elves-and-anglo-saxon-manuscripts.html) holds some other Anglo-saxon manuscripts referencing Elves, but the most important example is a prayer attempting to exorcise an Elf from the person it was possessing. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;We have no direct written evidence for pre-Christian society or even later popular beliefs amongst the Anglo-Saxons; however, belief in elves features in later medieval accounts of Norse paganism, which may have shared some elements of its mythology with Anglo-Saxon paganism. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-_Alison Hudson, British Library_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Icelandic [Eddas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edda), our most comprehensive source for Norse mythology, contain references to Elves, and some scholars think that the belief system described there aligns better with that of the pagan Anglo-saxons than any British sources. But even the Eddas were written down in the 13th century, after Christianization. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_(My starting point was Daniel Helen's [ excellent article](https://www.tolkiensociety.org/2016/01/earliest-reference-to-elf-manuscript-digitised/) for the Tolkien Society.)_" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13062" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3270" RevisionGUID="53819710-78ea-4d4f-8a68-d31579792e87" CreationDate="2018-01-19T10:59:36.197" UserId="1317" Comment="added 35 characters in body" Text="I certainly hope you weren't looking for Tolkien Elves or Santa's Helpers. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;[Elves](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elf)&quot; appear to be a part of the [pagan Anglo-Saxon belief system](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_paganism); the word is Germanic in origin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, it's hard to tell the nature of ancient Germanic elves because all of the written references were produced later, by Christians. &#xD;&#xA;Literacy in Britain at that time was mostly restricted to Christian clerics. And to them, elves were creatures of Satan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We have no less an authority than J.R.R. Tolkien himself:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In all Old English poetry ‘elves’ (ylfe) occurs once only, in Beowulf, associated with trolls, giants, and the Undead, as the accursed offspring of Cain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; -_Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien_, #236&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a reference to the very first chapter of _Beowulf_, which concludes with a diatribe on the ancestry of the monster Grendel:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Þanon untydras ealle onwocon, &#xD;&#xA; _([Of Cain] awoke all that woeful breed)_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;eotenas ond ***ylfe*** ond orcneas,&#xD;&#xA; _(Ettins and elves and evil-spirits)_&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;swylce gigantas, þa wið gode wunnon&#xD;&#xA; _(as well as the giants that warred with God)_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;lange þráge; he him ðæs lean forgeald.&#xD;&#xA; _(through a long age: but their wage was paid them)_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-_(Text and translation (which I presumed to tweak) from [the Beowulf project](https://www.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~beowulf/main.html) at McMaster University)_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even this single line from Beowulf is referenced to Biblical mythology! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The British Library](http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/digitisedmanuscripts/2016/01/elves-and-anglo-saxon-manuscripts.html) holds some other Anglo-saxon manuscripts referencing Elves, but the most important example is a prayer attempting to exorcise an Elf from the person it was possessing. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;We have no direct written evidence for pre-Christian society or even later popular beliefs amongst the Anglo-Saxons; however, belief in elves features in later medieval accounts of Norse paganism, which may have shared some elements of its mythology with Anglo-Saxon paganism. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-_Alison Hudson, British Library_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Icelandic [Eddas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edda), our most comprehensive source for Norse mythology, contain references to Elves, and some scholars think that the belief system described there aligns better with that of the pagan Anglo-saxons than any British sources. But even the Eddas were written down in the 13th century, after Christianization. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_(My starting point was Daniel Helen's [ excellent article](https://www.tolkiensociety.org/2016/01/earliest-reference-to-elf-manuscript-digitised/) for the Tolkien Society.)_" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13063" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3270" RevisionGUID="a4e91841-1924-4fe8-b677-cf563d6237b2" CreationDate="2018-01-19T11:09:42.170" UserId="1317" Comment="Minor tweaks" Text="I certainly hope you weren't looking for Tolkien Elves or Santa's Helpers. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;[Elves](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elf)&quot; appear to be a part of the [pagan Anglo-Saxon belief system](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_paganism); the word is Germanic in origin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, it's hard to tell the nature of ancient Germanic elves because all of the written references were produced later, by Christians. &#xD;&#xA;Literacy in Britain at that time was mostly restricted to Christian clerics. And to them, elves were creatures of Satan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We have no less an authority than J.R.R. Tolkien himself:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In all Old English poetry ‘elves’ (ylfe) occurs once only, in Beowulf, associated with trolls, giants, and the Undead, as the accursed offspring of Cain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; -_Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien_, #236&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a reference to the very first chapter of _Beowulf_, which concludes with a diatribe on the ancestry of the monster Grendel:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Þanon untydras ealle onwocon, &#xD;&#xA; _([Of Cain] awoke all that woeful breed)_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;eotenas ond ***ylfe*** ond orcnéas,&#xD;&#xA; _(Ettins and elves and evil-spirits)_&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;swylce gigantas, þa wið gode wunnon&#xD;&#xA; _(as well as the giants that warred with God)_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;lange þráge; he him ðæs lean forgeald.&#xD;&#xA; _(through a long age: but their wage was paid them)_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-_(Text and translation (which I presumed to tweak) from [the Beowulf project](https://www.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~beowulf/main.html) at McMaster University)_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even this single line from Beowulf is referenced to Biblical mythology! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The British Library](http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/digitisedmanuscripts/2016/01/elves-and-anglo-saxon-manuscripts.html) holds some other Anglo-saxon manuscripts referencing Elves, but the most important example is a prayer attempting to exorcise an Elf from the person it was possessing. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;We have no direct written evidence for pre-Christian society or even later popular beliefs amongst the Anglo-Saxons; however, belief in elves features in later medieval accounts of Norse paganism, which may have shared some elements of its mythology with Anglo-Saxon paganism. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-_Alison Hudson, British Library_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Icelandic [Eddas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edda), our most comprehensive source for Norse mythology, contain references to Elves, and some scholars think that the belief system described there aligns better with that of the pagan Anglo-saxons than any British sources. But even the Eddas were written down in the 13th century, after Christianization. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_(My starting point was Daniel Helen's [ excellent article](https://www.tolkiensociety.org/2016/01/earliest-reference-to-elf-manuscript-digitised/) for the Tolkien Society.)_" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13064" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3236" RevisionGUID="8cadf2f9-2b7c-4462-8432-4f6144df6e3a" CreationDate="2018-01-19T14:08:01.783" UserId="4561" Comment="linked to a good book on the subject" Text="&gt; Pre-19th century&#xD;&#xA;According to H. Siiger, the Yeti was a part of the pre-Buddhist beliefs of several Himalayan people. He was told that the Lepcha people worshipped a &quot;Glacier Being&quot; as a God of the Hunt.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Yeti (&quot;Abominable Snowman&quot;) Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeti)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We mustn't forget Yeti, [the Abominable Snowman][1]. There seems to be some connection, suggesting the legends may be even older and more global.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It also reminds me of the legends of the Green Man of the wood, as both are &quot;wild men&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.amazon.com/pursuit-Abominable-Snowman-Odette-Tchernine/dp/0800841875/ref=sr_1_22?s=books&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1516370718&amp;sr=1-22&amp;keywords=abominable%20snowman" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13066" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3272" RevisionGUID="8dfb2803-0c46-468a-bc8c-ce78537588e7" CreationDate="2018-01-19T23:19:42.513" UserId="292" Text="Alaric Hall [wrote his thesis][1] on elves in Anglo-Saxon belief. His [website][2] also has a lot of his papers on elf-lore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.alarichall.org.uk/phd.php&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.alarichall.org.uk/bibliog.php" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13067" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3273" RevisionGUID="d92aef9c-69c7-4d79-8cb9-896f8e22f725" CreationDate="2018-01-20T18:30:10.270" UserId="1308" Text="In the *[Fantasy Island][1]* (1998) episode &quot;Dreams&quot;, Michael Allen is a stockbroker who finds a mysterious woman (played by Jennifer Garner) who says this to him when they first meet.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sally: You know, there's a theory that dolphins were once human beings who chose to return to the sea. That would explain it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Michael: Explain what?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sally: Why they have such a close connection to people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As it turns out, &quot;Sally&quot; is indeed a dolphin who can transform to a human.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This sounds like the sort of thing that would be in a myth or traditional stories (although her phrasing it as a &quot;theory&quot; is a little strange). Are there any myths or stories about dolphins being humans who chose to return to the sea? Or is this something likely made up for the TV show?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy_Island_(1998_TV_series)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13068" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3273" RevisionGUID="d92aef9c-69c7-4d79-8cb9-896f8e22f725" CreationDate="2018-01-20T18:30:10.270" UserId="1308" Text="Is there a myth that dolphins were humans who chose to return to the sea?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13069" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3273" RevisionGUID="d92aef9c-69c7-4d79-8cb9-896f8e22f725" CreationDate="2018-01-20T18:30:10.270" UserId="1308" Text="|myth-identification|animals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13070" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3274" RevisionGUID="1dba67cb-a395-48ec-84d1-1a0b8ab53f50" CreationDate="2018-01-21T19:06:47.490" UserId="4561" Text="&gt;Are there any myths or stories about dolphins being humans who chose to return to the sea?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've long suspected that dolphins are the real subjects of Mermaid mythology. And I wouldn't be surprised to stumble across some obscure myths following more specifically along that line of reasoning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Currently, I would just like to present this little tidbit gleaned from traditional [Cherokee Cosmogonic Myths (c1902, by American Ethnologist, James Mooney; p239-40)][1]:&#xD;&#xA;[![Myths of the Cherokee][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Cherokee believed that the whole earth was covered with water at one time. All animal life, including humans, lived up in the sky (Galunlati). Presumably then, they were disembodied spiritual entities (like souls, or ghosts), while inhabiting the air.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It wasn't until after the &quot;Beaver's Grandchild&quot; (the little Water Beetle, aka Dayunisi) went below the water and brought up mud to build dams resembling islands and providing dry land on which the other mammals could walk, that they were able to leave the sky vault and live on the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Furthermore, they realized after settling from the sky onto land, that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Water World][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They describe a world of water, with streams for trails. Entrance to that underworld is made through [spring heads][4].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But in order to visit that world, one is required to:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Fast (lose weight)&#xD;&#xA; - Go to water (physically get into the water)&#xD;&#xA; - Allow yourself to be guided by one of the **underground people** (follow them)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They spoke about it as if it was at least fairly commonplace to desire to go there, if not succeed in doing so.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://ia800308.us.archive.org/10/items/cu31924104080076/cu31924104080076.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/usiFv.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Cwwmv.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.tripadvisor.com/LocationPhotoDirectLink-g34175-d2548415-i39565879-Gemini_Springs_Park-DeBary_Florida.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13071" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3275" RevisionGUID="4b6e8b07-435c-430c-bbab-0eacd8e9b6fe" CreationDate="2018-01-22T10:18:39.557" UserId="111" Text="In Ovid's [Metamorphoses](http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/21765), book III, there is of course the story of the [Tyrrhenian pirates](http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses3.html#7) that Bacchus turn into dolphins, but it's against their will, and as a punishment for betraying him. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is a translated extract of their transformation (the narrator at this point is a fisherman called Acoetes):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Bacchus in the midst of all stood crowned with chaplets of grape-leaves, and shook a lance covered with twisted fronds of leafy vines. Around him crouched the visionary forms of tigers, lynxes, and the mottled shapes of panthers.  &#xD;&#xA;Then the mariners leaped out, possessed by fear or madness. Medon first began to turn a swarthy hue, and fins grew outward from his flattened trunk, and with a curving spine his body bent.—then Lycabas to him, 'What prodigy is this that I behold?' Even as he spoke, his jaws were broadened and his nose was bent; his hardened skin was covered with bright scales. And Libys, as he tried to pull the oars, could see his own hands shrivel into fins; another of the crew began to grasp the twisted ropes, but even as he strove to lift his arms they fastened to his sides;—with bending body and a crooked back he plunged into the waves, and as he swam displayed a tail, as crescent as the moon. Now here, now there, they flounce about the ship; they spray her decks with brine; they rise and sink; they rise again, and dive beneath the waves; they seem in sportive dance upon the main; out from their nostrils they spout sprays of brine; they toss their supple sides. And I alone, of twenty mariners that manned that ship, remained. A cold chill seized my limbs,—I was so frightened; but the gracious God now spake me fair, 'Fear not and steer for Naxos.' And when we landed there I ministered on smoking altars Bacchanalian rites." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13074" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="302" RevisionGUID="b2c76a3f-e756-41dd-9dbe-3a5f8b920cac" CreationDate="2018-01-22T14:29:37.570" UserId="-1" Comment="its not it's" Text="In Roman mythology Romulus and Remus were two brothers that were kept alive by suckling from a wolf. Romulus later kills Remus and that is supposedly how Rome got its name. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But were Romulus and Remus real people?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13075" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="302" RevisionGUID="b2c76a3f-e756-41dd-9dbe-3a5f8b920cac" CreationDate="2018-01-22T14:29:37.570" Comment="Proposed by anonymous approved by 666, 111 edit id of 519" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13076" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3276" RevisionGUID="eea16e7b-5491-4ecc-a26a-ed95839105aa" CreationDate="2018-01-23T05:20:22.790" UserId="4601" Text="Related to my last question ([Are there any four-armed deities of creatures in the Greek or Roman pantheons?](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/3253/are-there-any-four-armed-deities-or-creatures-in-the-greek-or-roman-pantheons)) are there any races/species of creature in *any* pantheon with four arms (and two legs, one head)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13077" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3276" RevisionGUID="eea16e7b-5491-4ecc-a26a-ed95839105aa" CreationDate="2018-01-23T05:20:22.790" UserId="4601" Text="Are there any four-armed creatures in any pantheon?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13078" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3276" RevisionGUID="eea16e7b-5491-4ecc-a26a-ed95839105aa" CreationDate="2018-01-23T05:20:22.790" UserId="4601" Text="|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13079" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3277" RevisionGUID="675844d8-45eb-44cc-b7e6-d10dc590f426" CreationDate="2018-01-23T09:53:58.237" UserId="4142" Text="Such creatures are easily spotted in Indian depictions from various times. Ganesha, Lakshmi and Vishnu are probably the most popular, and there is a  book on the topic which might be useful:  Doris Srinivasan *Many Heads, Arms and eyes: Origin, Meaning and Forms of Multiplicity in Indian Art* (Brill, 1997)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13080" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3274" RevisionGUID="38842f55-7f4c-48e6-8edb-156c5423f591" CreationDate="2018-01-23T12:57:40.710" UserId="197" Comment="add transcriptions and full quality images of the scanned text from pdf" Text="&gt;Are there any myths or stories about dolphins being humans who chose to return to the sea?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've long suspected that dolphins are the real subjects of Mermaid mythology. And I wouldn't be surprised to stumble across some obscure myths following more specifically along that line of reasoning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Currently, I would just like to present this little tidbit gleaned from traditional [Cherokee Cosmogonic Myths (c1902, by American Ethnologist, James Mooney; p239-40)][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Cherokee Cosmogonic Myths, part of page 239, How the world was made][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; IV – THE MYTHS&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cosmogonic Myths&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; I. How the world was made&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The earth is a great island foalting in a sea of water, and suspended at each of the four cardinal points by a cord hanging down from the sky vault, which is of solid rock.  When the world grows old and worn out, the people will die and the cords will break and let the earth sink down into the ocean, and all will be water again.  The Indians are afraid of this.  When all was water, the animals were above in Gălûñʹlătĭ, beyond the arché but it was very much crowded, and they were wanting more room. They wondered what was below the water, and at least the […]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Cherokee believed that the whole earth was covered with water at one time. All animal life, including humans, lived up in the sky (Galunlati). Presumably then, they were disembodied spiritual entities (like souls, or ghosts), while inhabiting the air.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It wasn't until after the &quot;Beaver's Grandchild&quot; (the little Water Beetle, aka Dayunisi) went below the water and brought up mud to build dams resembling islands and providing dry land on which the other mammals could walk, that they were able to leave the sky vault and live on the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Furthermore, they realized after settling from the sky onto land, that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Cherokee Cosmogonic Myths, part of page 240, How the world was made][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There is another world under this, and it is like ours in everything – animals, plants, and people – save that the seasons are different. The streams that come down from the mountains are the trails by which we reach this underworld, and the springs at their heads are the doorways by which we enter it, but to do this one must fast and go to water and have one of the underground people for a guide.  We know that the seasons in the underworld are different from ours, because the water in the springs is always wramer in winter and cooler in summer than the outer air.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They describe a world of water, with streams for trails. Entrance to that underworld is made through [spring heads][4].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But in order to visit that world, one is required to:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Fast (lose weight)&#xD;&#xA; - Go to water (physically get into the water)&#xD;&#xA; - Allow yourself to be guided by one of the **underground people** (follow them)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They spoke about it as if it was at least fairly commonplace to desire to go there, if not succeed in doing so.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://ia800308.us.archive.org/10/items/cu31924104080076/cu31924104080076.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/DZs4C.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/L8noV.png&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.tripadvisor.com/LocationPhotoDirectLink-g34175-d2548415-i39565879-Gemini_Springs_Park-DeBary_Florida.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13081" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3274" RevisionGUID="38842f55-7f4c-48e6-8edb-156c5423f591" CreationDate="2018-01-23T12:57:40.710" Comment="Proposed by 197 approved by 4561 edit id of 521" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13082" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3274" RevisionGUID="67344af7-0968-43b7-8197-8daa7902942b" CreationDate="2018-01-23T13:19:45.937" UserId="4561" Comment="corrected spelling, improved formatting" Text="&gt;Are there any myths or stories about dolphins being humans who chose to return to the sea?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've long suspected that dolphins are the real subjects of Mermaid mythology. And I wouldn't be surprised to stumble across some obscure myths following more specifically along that line of reasoning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Currently, I would just like to present this little tidbit gleaned from traditional [Cherokee Cosmogonic Myths (c1902, by American Ethnologist, James Mooney; p239-40)][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Cherokee Cosmogonic Myths, part of page 239, How the world was made][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; IV – THE MYTHS&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cosmogonic Myths&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; I. How the world was made&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The earth is a great island floating in a sea of water, and suspended at each of the four cardinal points by a cord hanging down from the sky vault, which is of solid rock.  When the world grows old and worn out, the people will die and the cords will break and let the earth sink down into the ocean, and all will be water again.  The Indians are afraid of this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;When all was water, the animals were above in Gălûñʹlătĭ, beyond the arch; but it was very much crowded, and they were wanting more room. They wondered what was below the water, and at last […]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Cherokee believed that the whole earth was covered with water at one time. All animal life, including humans, lived up in the sky (Galunlati). Presumably then, they were disembodied spiritual entities (like souls, or ghosts), while inhabiting the air.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It wasn't until after the &quot;Beaver's Grandchild&quot; (the little Water Beetle, aka Dayunisi) went below the water and brought up mud to build dams resembling islands and providing dry land on which the other mammals could walk, that they were able to leave the sky vault and live on the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Furthermore, they realized after settling from the sky onto land, that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Cherokee Cosmogonic Myths, part of page 240, How the world was made][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There is another world under this, and it is like ours in everything – animals, plants, and **people** – save that the seasons are different. The streams that come down from the mountains are the trails by which we reach this underworld, and the springs at their heads are the doorways by which we enter it, but to do this one must *fast* and *go to water* and *have one of the underground* ***people*** *for a guide*.  We know that the seasons in the underworld are different from ours, because the water in the springs is always warmer in winter and cooler in summer than the outer air.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They describe a world of water, with streams for trails. Entrance to that underworld is made through [spring heads][4].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But in order to visit that world, one is required to:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Fast (lose weight)&#xD;&#xA; - Go to water (physically **get into the water**)&#xD;&#xA; - Allow yourself to be guided by one of the underground **people** (follow them)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They spoke about it as if it was at least fairly commonplace to desire to go there, if not succeed in doing so.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://ia800308.us.archive.org/10/items/cu31924104080076/cu31924104080076.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/DZs4C.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/L8noV.png&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.tripadvisor.com/LocationPhotoDirectLink-g34175-d2548415-i39565879-Gemini_Springs_Park-DeBary_Florida.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13083" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3278" RevisionGUID="35472aa1-2e94-4d63-b4ec-03377838cd75" CreationDate="2018-01-23T16:41:48.373" UserId="4639" Text="I know that the character of 'Adonis' is of Phoenician origin, but there are many other parallels which are too many to be ignored:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Phosporus- Shahar&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesperus- Shalim&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus/Poseidon/Hades- Baal/Yamm/Mot&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Athena- Anat&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aphrodite- Astarte&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Heracles- Melqart&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And is there a possible link between Pandora and the Biblical Eve?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13084" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3278" RevisionGUID="35472aa1-2e94-4d63-b4ec-03377838cd75" CreationDate="2018-01-23T16:41:48.373" UserId="4639" Text="Is Greek mythology derivative of/influence by Ugartic/Canaanite mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13085" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3278" RevisionGUID="35472aa1-2e94-4d63-b4ec-03377838cd75" CreationDate="2018-01-23T16:41:48.373" UserId="4639" Text="|greek|ugaritic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13086" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3279" RevisionGUID="669e8bff-8ff5-4f9b-a52d-28fe3ce91d90" CreationDate="2018-01-24T09:54:45.103" UserId="4642" Text="As an addendum: While kitsune are associated with Japanese Shinto deities Inari and Ukanomitama, as well as the Buddhist-originated Dakini-ten; Huxian or Huli Jing are, meanwhile, associated with the Chinese deities Nüwa and Xi Wangmu. Daji has also been venerated to some extent as a sort of divine entity of her own accord, and the Huxian is also directly venerated as an individual deity, a bit like a sort of guardian angel or domovoi, that deals in negotiating family relationships, wealth, and prosperity--specifically through its thieving and its attractive qualities and power of negotiation in relationships." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13091" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3276" RevisionGUID="be3a6aab-7f56-4107-8ccf-3a3a9804f724" CreationDate="2018-01-24T19:16:45.607" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 77 characters in body" Text="Related to my [last question](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/3253/are-there-any-four-armed-deities-or-creatures-in-the-greek-or-roman-pantheons): Are there any races/species of creature in *any* pantheon with four arms (and two legs and one head)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13092" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3281" RevisionGUID="47a4650c-e308-4ac4-a00f-554dbecd6776" CreationDate="2018-01-26T00:25:23.833" UserId="292" Text="As Gibet noted, there are similarities between Baal and Zeus but they're pretty loose.&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;However, if you're looking for a [Near Eastern analogue][1] to Zeus and Kronos, you need to go to the [Hittite/Hurrian][2] myth of Kingship in Heaven, which is very similar to the story of Ouranos-Kronos-Zeus.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;The middle god, Kumarbi, even bites off his father's genitals, just like Kronos castrated Ouranos, but in the [Hittite myth][3] Kumarbi becomes pregnant with three gods, and has to spit them out from his belly. When the Storm-God Teshub takes power there's a battle between him and Kumarbi, just like the Titans and Olympians.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;PS - This paper ([pdf][4]) discusses similarites in the Kingship in Heaven theme across Greece and the Near East generally.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.classics.upenn.edu/myth/php/hesiod/index.php?page=eastern&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://stason.org/TULARC/education-books/hittite-hurrian-mythology/01-Who-were-the-Hittites.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sitchin/guerradioses/guerradioses05a.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://grbs.library.duke.edu/article/viewFile/12791/1881" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13093" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2067" RevisionGUID="b95d518f-be51-41ce-8a6f-6a6009739faa" CreationDate="2018-01-26T00:31:35.573" UserId="4144" Comment="Improved spacing" Text="The Japanese Underworld (Yomi) is said to be ruled by Izanami. However, in the tale of Ōkuninushi, Susanno is said to reside there as its king. In addition to that, Izanamzi told Inzangi that she had to ask for permission to get out of Yomi.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From whom had she needed to ask permission from? A ruler/god of Yomi? Who is the real ruler of Yomi?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13094" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2067" RevisionGUID="b95d518f-be51-41ce-8a6f-6a6009739faa" CreationDate="2018-01-26T00:31:35.573" Comment="Proposed by 4144 approved by 111, -1 edit id of 520" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13095" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2067" RevisionGUID="d73ab403-7fe7-4f8e-81e4-67d65d9bf95f" CreationDate="2018-01-26T00:31:35.573" UserId="292" Comment="Improved spacing, smoother reading" Text="The Japanese Underworld (Yomi) is said to be ruled by Izanami. However, in the tale of Ōkuninushi, Susanno is said to reside there as its king. In addition to that, Izanamzi told Inzangi that she had to ask for permission to get out of Yomi.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who did she need to ask for permission? A ruler/god of Yomi? Who is the real ruler of Yomi?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13097" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3283" RevisionGUID="dfca744e-f69c-4d88-bcfa-b80b05b2f628" CreationDate="2018-01-26T21:51:41.723" UserId="4650" Text="What gods were there in ancient religions related to games? I know there were gods related to chance, but even in ancient world not all games relied on luck (olympic games, other sports competitions, Go , Chaturanga). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm searching for gods, but will welcome other mythical creatures as well, for the sake of this question most prominent immortals/wise kings/saints etc. can be swapped for gods. The relation between them and games has to be direct, no &quot;well they were about strategy, so they are also gods of strategy games&quot; etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately, when searching for gods related to games on google, your results are flooded with modern game titles with &quot;god&quot; in the title, and I can't seem to find related page on wikipedia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13098" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3283" RevisionGUID="dfca744e-f69c-4d88-bcfa-b80b05b2f628" CreationDate="2018-01-26T21:51:41.723" UserId="4650" Text="What gods were there that dealt with games" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13099" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3283" RevisionGUID="dfca744e-f69c-4d88-bcfa-b80b05b2f628" CreationDate="2018-01-26T21:51:41.723" UserId="4650" Text="|mythical-creatures|comparative|symbolism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13100" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3284" RevisionGUID="448046cb-5ec6-426f-96db-ab91dc459581" CreationDate="2018-01-26T22:39:12.700" UserId="4650" Text="There is a certain version of red riding hood story that some authors claim to be &quot;the original&quot; version. For example in the Sandman comic: [![sandman][1]][1] &#xD;&#xA;Or from the movie Jin Roh : https://i.stack.imgur.com/eGXka.jpg &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Quick search on wikipedia seems to dispell those claims, but I still wish to ask: is there such a thing as THE original version of red riding hood, that later become the modern version of red riding hood (assuming we could agree on what the modern version is)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/pcaJU.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13101" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3284" RevisionGUID="448046cb-5ec6-426f-96db-ab91dc459581" CreationDate="2018-01-26T22:39:12.700" UserId="4650" Text="Red riding hood" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13102" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3284" RevisionGUID="448046cb-5ec6-426f-96db-ab91dc459581" CreationDate="2018-01-26T22:39:12.700" UserId="4650" Text="|folklore|history|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13104" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3285" RevisionGUID="57190c68-1dbc-43bd-8a24-f54b6418b00b" CreationDate="2018-01-28T08:39:10.510" UserId="2682" Text="The closest to this that I can think of occurs in one obscure reference in Robert Graves' compilation *The Greek Myths*, a *Combined Edition* of which was published by Penguin Books in 1992. In describing a group of triplet goddesses of vengeance and retribution, who were called &quot;the Erinnyes or Furies&quot;, Graves says (in Section 31.g, on p. 122) that &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These Erinnyes were crones, with snakes for hair, dogs' heads,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; coal-black bodies, bats' wings, and bloodshot eyes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Bats' wings are, actually, massively webbed arms with some very long fingers.&#xD;&#xA;[![Indian Fruit Bat][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;With that being the case, and assuming that each of the Erinnyes had simply one pair of wings, then it would also be true to say that each of these sisters had a total of four arms (to go with her [only] two legs).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, in the ancient iconography in which I have seen [depictions](http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Erinyes.html) of the Erinnyes, they are invariably completely humanoid, represented as women with snakes for hair (or simply with snakes writhing *in the midst of* their otherwise ordinary-looking hair) sometimes with obviously feathered *bird*-like wings. Nor have I read any ancient author who describes them as having either the bats' wings or the dogs' heads.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond that anomalous reference, no, it does not seem that there are any such four-armed bipeds in Graeco-Roman mythology.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/33Gfv.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13105" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3228" RevisionGUID="69d88980-b026-4260-9e00-2d535bef9d34" CreationDate="2018-01-28T23:39:56.883" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="13106" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3286" RevisionGUID="583925d2-7c4a-4b7b-86fc-559f44486590" CreationDate="2018-01-29T09:39:57.330" UserId="57" Text="The [Heliopolitan cosmogony][1] attributes creation to [Atum][2], the first god who created himself from the primordial waters. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Memphis creation myth][3], however, places [Ptah][4], god of craftsmen and architects, to the role of the demiurge. According to this version, Atum was produced from the intellect of Ptah. Once formed, Atum carried out creation in a manner similar to the Heliopolis version.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It could be argued that the Memphite version reconciles the two belief systems, by providing a direct link between them. At the same time, though, the Memphites relegate Atum and place their own patron atop. This could perhaps be interpreted as an attempt to assert supremacy over the Heliopolitan belief system.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are the two cosmogonies competing or reconciliatory? Would a Heliopolitan priest be offended by the Memphite version? Or would they be open to accepting Ptah as a possible alternative to the self-creation story of Atum?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_creation_myths#Heliopolis&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atum&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_creation_myths#Memphis&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptah" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13107" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3286" RevisionGUID="583925d2-7c4a-4b7b-86fc-559f44486590" CreationDate="2018-01-29T09:39:57.330" UserId="57" Text="Are the Memphis and Heliopolis cosmogonies competing or reconciliatory?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13108" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3286" RevisionGUID="583925d2-7c4a-4b7b-86fc-559f44486590" CreationDate="2018-01-29T09:39:57.330" UserId="57" Text="|egyptian|cosmogony|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13109" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3284" RevisionGUID="b216845d-1b80-43d9-a736-cdc91dff696d" CreationDate="2018-01-29T09:45:33.650" UserId="57" Comment="cleanup." Text="There is a certain version of &quot;Little Red Riding Hood&quot; that some authors claim to be &quot;the original&quot; version. For example in the Sandman comic: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![sandman][1]][1] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or from the movie [Jin Roh][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A quick search on Wikipedia seems to dispell those claims, but I still wish to ask: Is there such a thing as *the* original version of &quot;Little Red Riding Hood&quot;, that later becomes the modern version of red riding hood (assuming we could agree on what the modern version is).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/pcaJU.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/eGXka.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13110" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3284" RevisionGUID="b216845d-1b80-43d9-a736-cdc91dff696d" CreationDate="2018-01-29T09:45:33.650" UserId="57" Comment="cleanup." Text="What is the original version of &quot;Little Red Riding Hood&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13111" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3284" RevisionGUID="b216845d-1b80-43d9-a736-cdc91dff696d" CreationDate="2018-01-29T09:45:33.650" UserId="57" Comment="cleanup." Text="|european-folklore|fairy-tales|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13112" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3283" RevisionGUID="9e11e784-6be0-48ea-b69d-20dda622aa5d" CreationDate="2018-01-29T09:47:09.070" UserId="57" Comment="added 6 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="What gods were there in ancient religions related to games? I know there were gods related to chance, but even in the ancient world, not all games relied on luck (Olympic games, other sports competitions, Go, Chaturanga). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm searching for gods, but will welcome other mythical creatures as well, for the sake of this question most prominent immortals/wise kings/saints etc. can be swapped for gods. The relation between them and games has to be direct, no &quot;well they were about strategy, so they are also gods of strategy games&quot; etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately, when searching for gods related to games on google, your results are flooded with modern game titles with &quot;god&quot; in the title, and I can't seem to find a related page on Wikipedia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13113" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3283" RevisionGUID="9e11e784-6be0-48ea-b69d-20dda622aa5d" CreationDate="2018-01-29T09:47:09.070" UserId="57" Comment="added 6 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="What gods were there that dealt with games?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13114" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3283" RevisionGUID="9e11e784-6be0-48ea-b69d-20dda622aa5d" CreationDate="2018-01-29T09:47:09.070" UserId="57" Comment="added 6 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|mythical-creatures|games|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13115" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3278" RevisionGUID="94d70fac-03a5-4d0c-b2f9-7513c220bd49" CreationDate="2018-01-29T11:23:15.270" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|comparative|ugaritic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13116" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="3170" RevisionGUID="80895e95-bb63-407f-bcfd-a0dca90a7fff" CreationDate="2018-01-29T12:14:16.400" UserId="57" Comment="57" />
  <row Id="13117" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="2789" RevisionGUID="595358e2-68da-4ead-b0f1-3850f099f423" CreationDate="2018-01-29T12:43:42.567" UserId="57" Comment="101" Text="{&quot;OriginalQuestionIds&quot;:[18],&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;yannis&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="13121" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3288" RevisionGUID="40dda2cf-8236-4c80-af0f-736534ec6f84" CreationDate="2018-01-29T20:12:12.610" UserId="4655" Text="The vast majority of Greek myths I'm familiar with concern the Olympians, the third generation of deities. The first generation seems to disappear from the story after their role in setting the scene is over. I have two related questions about this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1) From an &quot;in-story&quot; perspective, why do the primordials stop doing things? I understand Uranus is killed, but what happens to the others? Are they all dead or indisposed as well?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2) From a cultural perspective, is there any known reason why the Greek narrative placed the most emphasis on a third, lesser generation of deities, rather than the first generation, who created the world and held dominion over the fundamental aspects of reality?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13122" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3288" RevisionGUID="40dda2cf-8236-4c80-af0f-736534ec6f84" CreationDate="2018-01-29T20:12:12.610" UserId="4655" Text="Why did the primordial deities not take an active role in Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13123" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3288" RevisionGUID="40dda2cf-8236-4c80-af0f-736534ec6f84" CreationDate="2018-01-29T20:12:12.610" UserId="4655" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13124" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3289" RevisionGUID="3c222c34-210a-4664-b61b-ebdfc2d79160" CreationDate="2018-01-30T02:23:57.330" UserId="4657" Text="Is the fact that Baba yaga ages with each question asked and drinks blue rose tea to reverse aging from Russian folklore or is it something the internet came up with?&#xD;&#xA;I've heard several mention it but can't find which story this information came from.&#xD;&#xA;If you know any Russian folklore about blue roses, that be a big help too. I came across a story about a enchantress who could only be killed by finding a blue rose bush in a lake, but am finding it very difficult finding the title of said story." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13125" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3289" RevisionGUID="3c222c34-210a-4664-b61b-ebdfc2d79160" CreationDate="2018-01-30T02:23:57.330" UserId="4657" Text="Baba yaga and blue rose tea" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13126" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3289" RevisionGUID="3c222c34-210a-4664-b61b-ebdfc2d79160" CreationDate="2018-01-30T02:23:57.330" UserId="4657" Text="|slavic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13127" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3290" RevisionGUID="0393df79-e2b8-4a56-bbdc-4d68306b9ec6" CreationDate="2018-01-30T08:25:13.313" UserId="57" Text="[Nekhbet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nekhbet), a predynastic goddess that eventually became the patron of [Upper Egypt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Egypt), was commonly depicted in art as a vulture. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is that? The vulture seems - at least to me - like an odd choice for one of the holiest of deities in the Egyptian pantheon.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13128" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3290" RevisionGUID="0393df79-e2b8-4a56-bbdc-4d68306b9ec6" CreationDate="2018-01-30T08:25:13.313" UserId="57" Text="Why was Nekhbet depicted as a vulture?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13129" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3290" RevisionGUID="0393df79-e2b8-4a56-bbdc-4d68306b9ec6" CreationDate="2018-01-30T08:25:13.313" UserId="57" Text="|egyptian|symbolism|iconography|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13130" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2485" RevisionGUID="a0c14cee-07b7-44c2-806f-4b4141ee4532" CreationDate="2018-01-30T08:32:45.990" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|slavic|baba-yaga|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13131" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2690" RevisionGUID="aa5175cf-4c72-4914-b730-ed1ca7e3dda6" CreationDate="2018-01-30T08:32:51.190" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|slavic|baba-yaga|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13132" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3289" RevisionGUID="ab1fe592-2738-4302-a879-60d5f4ba605c" CreationDate="2018-01-30T08:33:48.607" UserId="57" Comment="added 6 characters in body; edited tags" Text="Is the fact that Baba Yaga ages with each question asked and drinks blue rose tea to reverse ageing from Russian folklore or is it something the internet came up with?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've heard several mentions it but can't find which story this information came from.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you know any Russian folklore about blue roses, that be a big help too. I came across a story about an enchantress who could only be killed by finding a blue rose bush in a lake, but am finding it very difficult finding the title of the story." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13133" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3289" RevisionGUID="ab1fe592-2738-4302-a879-60d5f4ba605c" CreationDate="2018-01-30T08:33:48.607" UserId="57" Comment="added 6 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|slavic|baba-yaga|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13134" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3289" RevisionGUID="ab1fe592-2738-4302-a879-60d5f4ba605c" CreationDate="2018-01-30T08:33:48.607" UserId="57" Comment="added 6 characters in body; edited tags" Text="Is Baba Yaga and blue rose tea" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13136" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3288" RevisionGUID="8a4931cb-d05f-4396-9ad8-1d0f37d2bcea" CreationDate="2018-01-30T10:00:13.737" UserId="57" Comment="edited body" Text="The vast majority of Greek myths I'm familiar with concern the Olympians, the third generation of deities. The first generation seems to disappear from the story after their role in setting the scene is over. I have two related questions about this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. From an &quot;in-story&quot; perspective, why do the primordials stop doing things? I understand Uranus is killed, but what happens to the others? Are they all dead or indisposed as well?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. From a cultural perspective, is there any known reason why the Greek narrative placed the most emphasis on a third, lesser generation of deities, rather than the first generation, who created the world and held dominion over the fundamental aspects of reality?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13137" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3289" RevisionGUID="b581f7e6-690e-4bd3-818d-71fc4d453811" CreationDate="2018-01-30T10:14:38.763" UserId="57" Comment="edited title" Text="Does Baba Yaga drink blue rose tea to reverse ageing?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13138" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3292" RevisionGUID="9c6829f0-c833-49cc-b5c8-d0bca6fb3e9b" CreationDate="2018-01-30T12:36:50.110" UserDisplayName="user4660" Text="[Hermes][1] - was the emissary and messenger of the gods. Wikipedia don't says that, but he was a god of games and luck too.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13139" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3225" RevisionGUID="fbc931a3-1d7a-4732-b368-aa403c80e44e" CreationDate="2018-01-30T13:08:00.357" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 34 characters in body" Text="Actually, I think he may have died in battle. If the human heart is damaged, in Ancient Egyptian culture, it had to be replaced with what was called a heart scarab. If the lungs were left behind, it's probably so he can breathe in the afterlife or like the answer above, it could've been a mistake." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13141" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2659" RevisionGUID="be864c2b-8ddb-4c8d-a8f0-9ebdf6aa2aad" CreationDate="2018-01-30T14:54:17.213" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|fairies|fairy-tales|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13142" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3091" RevisionGUID="a88d7789-efd5-4263-9725-ad7e193fed78" CreationDate="2018-01-30T16:37:11.057" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|iliad|achilles|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13143" PostHistoryTypeId="8" PostId="3225" RevisionGUID="eb4ac2ab-3ff2-4f77-ac92-6dc7cf7ce9b0" CreationDate="2018-01-31T03:35:24.703" UserId="4568" Comment="Rollback to [079a6d51-a7ce-4747-8e0e-ec684215785e]" Text="Actually,I think he died in battle. If the human heart is damaged,in Ancient Egyptian culture,it had to be replaced with what was called a heart scarab which would replace the heart if it was damaged. If the lungs were left behind,it's probably so he can breathe in the afterlife or like the comment above,it could've been a mistake" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13144" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3293" RevisionGUID="e4e3e2c1-2a43-4e58-8ad9-79ba5f2bcd9c" CreationDate="2018-01-31T07:08:11.687" UserId="4171" Text="My purposes are non-salacious, I promise. There's an undercurrent in mythology and folklore that I didn't get a lot of in school, but which I've noticed more and more of as I've read on my own. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These are stories of men and women, often royal but occasionally divine, who fall into a fit of madness, passion, or fury and violate the highest moral laws, in a particular way that seems like an arrow aimed at the human sense of spiritual pollution. The Greeks, in particular, seem to love this stuff, and the first example that always comes to mind is Oedipus murdering Laius. The reoccurring European myth of a king being served his own sons in a meat pie is also right on the mark. These are essentially folkloric stories of madness and ultimate moral transgression. &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;I was wondering how common stories like this are in folklore and mythology, and if there are other good examples I could go read and compare? (I'll take as many as you've got.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13145" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3293" RevisionGUID="e4e3e2c1-2a43-4e58-8ad9-79ba5f2bcd9c" CreationDate="2018-01-31T07:08:11.687" UserId="4171" Text="What are some iconic legends of human depravity and spiritual pollution?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13146" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3293" RevisionGUID="e4e3e2c1-2a43-4e58-8ad9-79ba5f2bcd9c" CreationDate="2018-01-31T07:08:11.687" UserId="4171" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13147" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3294" RevisionGUID="e72fec8c-3bb3-4820-9cff-a338ff69d63b" CreationDate="2018-01-31T08:18:52.483" UserId="57" Text="[Atenism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atenism) was Egypt's state religion during the reign of [Akhenaten](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhenaten). The religion considered [Aten](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aten) - the sun disc - as the supreme and only god, a radical departure from traditional beliefs. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I realize Atenism only lasted for a few years and probably didn't have enough time to provide answers to all fundamental questions.  However, placing the sun as the supreme god immediately begs the question: What happens at night? Where does Aten go? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did Atenism provide an explanation for the absence of the sun disc in the night sky?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13148" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3294" RevisionGUID="e72fec8c-3bb3-4820-9cff-a338ff69d63b" CreationDate="2018-01-31T08:18:52.483" UserId="57" Text="How did Atenism explain night-time?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13149" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3294" RevisionGUID="e72fec8c-3bb3-4820-9cff-a338ff69d63b" CreationDate="2018-01-31T08:18:52.483" UserId="57" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13150" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3295" RevisionGUID="8951dd3f-ed82-4a40-8f08-24492397c089" CreationDate="2018-01-31T10:40:07.837" UserId="4121" Text="That's not entirely true, Gaea for instance appears more than once in the myths, even after the castration of Ouranos (Note that it is not mentioned that Ouranos is killed, just castrated and then consequently bound). The first instance is when Kronos starts eating his own children, Rhea goes and weeps to her mother (Gaea) and asks her for advice. Gaea then suggests to her the plan to replace her youngest son(Zeus) by a stone, and smuggle him to her so that she could take care of him. She then ensured that Kronos could hear young Zeus' wailing by having Naiads disguise the sound by smashing rocks together. &#xD;&#xA;She later helps in training young Zeus to overcome his father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Hesiod, Theogony 462 ff (trans. Evelyn-White) (Greek epic C8th or C7th B.C.) :&#xD;&#xA;&quot;[Kronos (Cronus)] learned from Gaia (Gaea, Earth) and starry Ouranos (Uranus, Heaven) that he was destined to be overcome by his own son, strong though he was, through the contriving of great Zeus.Therefore he kept no blind outlook, but watched and swallowed down his children : and unceasing grief seized Rhea. But when she was about to bear Zeus, the father of gods and men, then she besought her own dear parents, Gaia and starry Ouranos, to devise some plan with her that the birth of her dear child might be concealed... Him did vast Gaia (Earth) receive from Rhea in wide Krete to nourish and to bring up...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She appears once more (that I am aware of) during the war of the Giants, Gaea is angered by the actions of the gods, especially that of Zeus so she conspires with Tartarus and gives birth to her second set of children, the Giants. Each of whom is destined to fight against one of their counterparts in the Greek gods.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Pseudo-Hyginus, Preface (trans. Grant) (Roman mythographer C2nd A.D.) :&#xD;&#xA;&quot;From Terra (Earth) [Gaia] and Tartarus [were born], Gigantes (Giants) : Enceladus, Coeus, elentes, mophius, Astreaus, Pelorus, Pallas, Emphytus, Rhoecus, ienios, Agrius, alemone, Ephialtes, Eurytus, effracorydon, Theomises, Theodamas, Otus, Typhon, Polybotes, menephriarus, abesus, colophonus, Iapetus.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Ovid, Metamorphoses 1. 156 ff (trans. Melville) (Roman epic C1st B.C. to C1st A.D.) :&quot;Gigantes (Giants), it's said, to win the gods' domain, mountain on mountain reared and reached the stars.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But it is also true that they don't appear often in the works of the more recent Greek author, this can be attributed to the fact that most of these authors focused on the age of Heroes(wherein the Titans and the Elder Gods did not play an important role.), the Gods were merely the procreators in this age and in some cases the barrier/nemesis that the Hero had to overcome in his quest for Glory (for e.g. Heracles and Hera).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second part of the question has more to do with Anthropology(if I'm interpreting your question correctly), It is highly likely that the Elder Gods were Deities of a tribe that was either defeated or assimilated into another tribe. It could also be an indication of the changing  belief systems of the tribe, a shift in focus as such from more general beliefs such as *Sky* and *Earth* to more specific domains that they believed would help in their various ventures, such as Agriculture (Demeter),wishing for fair weather at Sea(Poseidon),etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A very good resource for this would be the **Greek Myths** by *Robert Graves*, he has very concisely built a case for the development of the various myths, and a corresponding event that may have occurred. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;References- &#xD;&#xA;http://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Ouranos.html&#xD;&#xA;http://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Gaia.html&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13151" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3296" RevisionGUID="a1478beb-a1a7-4096-95c7-c4e1623db675" CreationDate="2018-01-31T20:56:20.623" UserId="2892" Text="Great question, and props for recognizing the influence of Classical mythology in particular in the art and literature of Western Civilization!  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This answer may evolve, as I get more info on what you've looked at, but I'll initially address the subject of cannibalism in Greek Myth, since there are so many referents.  (The fourth example is distinct.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **Lycaon**, King of Arcadia, first [lycanthrope][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Zeus visited his home, all the people worshipped Zeus, but Lycaon,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;mocked their pious vows and scoffing said; ‘A fair experiment&#xD;&#xA;will prove the truth if this be god or man.’&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Metamorphoses][2], Ovid, Book I&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lycaon's experiment is to kill and cook a Molossian hostage, and serve him to Zeus to test his power.  Needless to say, the experiment failed, and Zeus destroyed his house with lightening bolts, and Lycaon was transformed into the creature that most fit his ravenous bloodlust, a wolf.  In the Ovid, Zeus is so freaked out by his run-in with the first psychopath, he wanted to destroy all mankind.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lycaon was undoubted wicked and impious!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **Tantalus**, honored by the gods, intimate friend of Zeus, regular guest at Olympus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Tantalus][3] first sinned by stealing some nectar from one of the feasts, and before the crime could be discovered, added insult to injury.  Having invited the gods to dine at his palace, Tantalus discovered his larder was empty, and, not wishing to offend, slaughtered and cooked his son Pelops. All of the gods [knew exactly what was on the menu][4] except for Demeter, who, distracted by her missing daughter, ate a shoulder, resulting in [one of the earliest prostheses][5] when Pelops was subsequently resurrected. It's unclear whether Tantalus was testing the gods, or just trying to be a good host, but the gods punished him nonetheless.  Even in Hades, Tantalus has distinction of one of the most famous eternal punishments of all time, and his name becomes the word [tantalize][6].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **Atreus**, father of Agamemnon&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cannibalism is something of a tradition in the [lineage of Tantalus][7], and extends to his grandsons.  [Atreus][8] and [Thyestes][9] are tow feuding sons of Pelops, and are wickedness defined.  Thyestes has an affair Atreus' wife,  Atreus, to get back at Thyestes for making him a cuckold, kill's Thyestes two sons, cooks and serves them at a feast to Thyestes, taunting him with their heads and hands after he has gorged himself.  Thyestes then rapes his own daughter because of a prophecy that [the son of the union would kill Atreus][10].  No punishments were meted, presumably because because the outrages were against mortals, not the gods, per se, except, possibly, in some curse on the house of Atreus.  Agamemnon has a lot of family baggage!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Philomel and Procne**, two princesses of Athens&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is my favorite variant of the &quot;[Thyestian Banquet][11]&quot;, because in this one, the actors are justified.  The Ovid version is the most moving: [Procne et Philomela][12].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tereus, the husband of Procne, is wicked indeed.  Not satisfied with his beautiful young wife, he abducts her sister and locks her in a tower, having his way and cutting out her tongue so that she cannot tell anyone of this outrage.  But women have special domains of power in the myths, one of which is weaving (see the [Fates][13], [Athena/Arachne][14], [Penelope][15].)  Philomel weaves a tapestry, telling her story, one which only her sister would recognize, and by signs and signals gets a servant to convey it to her sister, the queen.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Long story short, Procne gets the message, rescues her sister, and the two slaughter young Itys, Procne &amp; Tereus' son, cook him up and feed him to Tereus, except for the head and hands which they use to reveal the contents of the feast once Tereus is well gorged.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All are punished by being turned into birds, and it's easy in a modern context to see the sisters as wicked, but they're actually the heroines.  Tereus certainly had it coming!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;SEE ALSO:&#xD;&#xA;[Titus Andronicus][16] (Shakespeare)&#xD;&#xA;[The Cook, The Thief, His Wife, Her Lover][17] (Greenaway)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;These are just a few of my favorite tales of wickedness, and I chose them partly for the shared element of cannibalism, and partly because the actors all all protagonists.  This makes these stories distinct from, say, the wicked men that Theseus kills on his first trip to Athens, such as [Periphetes][18], [Sinis][19], [Sciron][20], [Cercyon][21], and the inimitable [Procrustes][22]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werewolf&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D163&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantalus#Story_of_Tantalus&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-UIDqe9FFH5g/UZPMArGMSFI/AAAAAAAAL0k/vzmf4lKpyZs/s1600/meat-is-back-on-the-menu.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D6%3Acard%3D382&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/tantalize&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atreus#Tantalus&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atreus&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyestes&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegisthus&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/thyestean-banquet&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D6%3Acard%3D412&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moirai&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arachne&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penelope&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus_Andronicus#Synopsis&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cook,_the_Thief,_His_Wife_%26_Her_Lover&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periphetes&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinis_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sciron&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cercyon&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procrustes" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13152" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3297" RevisionGUID="3215d025-9bd2-438e-af58-6b5ccd4b86d1" CreationDate="2018-02-01T03:01:06.017" UserId="4667" Text="In Goethe's [_Sorrows of Young Werther_ (1774)](http://gutenberg.spiegel.de/buch/die-leiden-des-jungen-werther-3636/2), we find this sentence:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; _Man erzählt von einer edlen Art Pferde, die, wenn sie schrecklich erhitzt und aufgejagt sind, sich selbst aus Instinkt eine Ader aufbeißen, um sich zum Atem zu helfen._&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Translation [(R.D. Boylan)](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2527/2527-h/2527-h.htm):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Naturalists tell of a noble race of horses that instinctively open a vein with their teeth, when heated and exhausted by a long course, in order to breathe more freely.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Victor Hugo's [_The Rhine_ (1842)](https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Le_Rhin/XXI.7) we find this :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; _si les chevaux gênés par le sang s’ouvrent eux-mêmes une veine de la cuisse de derrière;_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Translation [(1845)](https://books.google.com/books?id=yOIBAAAAYAAJ&amp;pg=PA201#q=open.the.vein.of.their.thigh):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; if the horses, too full of blood, open the vein of their thigh;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the origin of this bit of folklore? I *think* it is unrelated to the [blood-sweating horses of China](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferghana_horse), I *know* it is unrelated to the [bloody-shouldered horses of Arabia](http://www.tophorse.com.au/legend-of-the-blood-stained-shoulder__vicarticle_bloodyshoulders__F), and I haven't been able to find anything else even remotely close via Google searches." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13153" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3297" RevisionGUID="3215d025-9bd2-438e-af58-6b5ccd4b86d1" CreationDate="2018-02-01T03:01:06.017" UserId="4667" Text="Origin of &quot;horses that instinctively open a vein with their teeth in order to breathe more freely&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13154" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3297" RevisionGUID="3215d025-9bd2-438e-af58-6b5ccd4b86d1" CreationDate="2018-02-01T03:01:06.017" UserId="4667" Text="|folklore|animals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13156" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3293" RevisionGUID="d9da4fd2-e19a-4de1-839b-dbe224186916" CreationDate="2018-02-01T11:33:37.397" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13157" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3298" RevisionGUID="8aefe078-4302-480b-a888-6c43bf91e99f" CreationDate="2018-02-01T15:13:11.273" UserId="4568" Text="Piper was partially right but her answer is not entirely correct. The other reason is because they were shape shifters. Horus could become a full-on falcon,Anubis could become a jackal and Seth(Set) could even become what I think is an aardvark. However,the case of them having animal heads was something they had to begin with." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13159" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3296" RevisionGUID="a1664a6d-bcf0-436c-a294-e954a21bdabe" CreationDate="2018-02-01T19:41:40.847" UserId="2892" Comment="added 365 characters in body" Text="Great question, and props for recognizing the influence of Classical mythology in particular in the art and literature of Western Civilization!  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This answer may evolve, as I get more info on what you've looked at, but I'll initially address the subject of cannibalism in Greek Myth, since there are so many referents. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **Lycaon**, King of Arcadia, first [lycanthrope][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Zeus visited his home, all the people worshipped Zeus, but Lycaon,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;mocked their pious vows and scoffing said; ‘A fair experiment&#xD;&#xA;will prove the truth if this be god or man.’&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Metamorphoses][2], Ovid, Book I&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lycaon's experiment is to kill and cook a Molossian hostage, and serve him to Zeus to test his power.  Needless to say, the experiment fails, and Zeus destroys his house with lightening bolts. Lycaon is transformed into the creature that most fit his ravenous bloodlust, a wolf.  *(In the Ovid, Zeus is so freaked out by his run-in with the original &quot;Hannibal Lecter&quot;, he wants to destroy all mankind, no longer feeling so secure about his dominance.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lycaon was undoubted wicked and impious!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **Tantalus**, honored by the gods, intimate friend of Zeus, regular guest at Olympus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Tantalus][3] first sinned by stealing some nectar from one of their feasts, and before the crime could be discovered, added insult to injury.  Having invited the gods to dine at his palace, Tantalus discovers his larder is empty.  Not wishing to offend, slaughters and cooks his son Pelops. All of the gods [know exactly what was on the menu][4] except for Demeter, who, distracted by the [absence of her daughter][5], eats a shoulder, resulting in [one of the earliest prostheses][6] when Pelops is subsequently resurrected. It's unclear whether Tantalus was testing the gods, or just trying to be a good host, but the gods punish him nonetheless.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even in Hades, however, Tantalus has distinction of being the victim one of the most famous eternal punishments of all time, and his name becomes the word [tantalize][7].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **Atreus**, father of Agamemnon&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cannibalism is something of a tradition in the [lineage of Tantalus][8], and extends to his grandsons.  [Atreus][9] and [Thyestes][10] are two feuding sons of Pelops, and are wickedness defined.  Thyestes has an affair Atreus' wife;  Atreus, to get back at Thyestes for making him a cuckold, kills Thyestes' two sons, cooks and serves them at a feast to Thyestes, taunting him with their heads and hands after Thyestes has gorged himself.  Thyestes then rapes his own daughter because of a prophecy that [the son of the union would kill Atreus][11], which [turns out to be true][12].  No punishments were meted, presumably because because the outrages were against mortals, not the gods, except, possibly, in some curse on the house of Atreus.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Agamemnon has a lot of family baggage!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Philomel and Procne**, two princesses of Athens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is my favorite variant of the &quot;[Thyestian Banquet][13]&quot; because in this one, the actors are justified.  The Ovid version is the most moving: [Procne et Philomela][14] (English translation).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tereus, the husband of Procne, is wicked indeed.  Not satisfied with his young, beautiful wife, he abducts her younger sister and locks her in a tower at the edge of his domains.  There he has his way with poor Philomel, and cuts out her tongue so she can tell no one of his outrage outrage.  But women have special domains of power in the myths, and one of these is weaving (see the [Fates][15], [Athena/Arachne][16], [Penelope][17].)  Philomel weaves a tapestry depicting her tale of woe, one which only her sister would recognize, and by signs and signals, has a servant to convey it as a gift to her sister, the queen.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Long story short, Procne gets the message, rescues her sister.  For revenge, the two slaughter young Itys, Procne &amp; Tereus' son, and cook him up and feed him to Tereus, except for the head and hands which, like Atreus, they use to reveal the contents of the feast once Tereus has stuffed himself so full he can barely move. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All are punished by being turned into birds, and it's easy in a modern context to see the sisters as wicked, but they're actually the heroines.  Tereus certainly had it coming!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;SEE ALSO:&#xD;&#xA;[Titus Andronicus][18] (Shakespeare)&#xD;&#xA;[The Cook, The Thief, His Wife, Her Lover][19] (Greenaway)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;These are just a few of my favorite tales of wickedness, and I chose them partly for the shared element of cannibalism, and partly because the actors all all protagonists.  This makes these stories distinct from, say, the wicked men that Theseus kills on his first trip to Athens, such as [Periphetes][20], [Sinis][21], [Sciron][22], [Cercyon][23], and the inimitable [Procrustes][24]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werewolf&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D163&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantalus#Story_of_Tantalus&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-UIDqe9FFH5g/UZPMArGMSFI/AAAAAAAAL0k/vzmf4lKpyZs/s1600/meat-is-back-on-the-menu.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persephone#Abduction_myth&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D6%3Acard%3D382&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/tantalize&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atreus#Tantalus&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atreus&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyestes&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegisthus&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oresteia#Agamemnon&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/thyestean-banquet&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D6%3Acard%3D412&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moirai&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arachne&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penelope&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus_Andronicus#Synopsis&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cook,_the_Thief,_His_Wife_%26_Her_Lover&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periphetes&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinis_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sciron&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cercyon&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procrustes" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13160" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3299" RevisionGUID="ca4c5b1c-33df-435a-bdfc-8b00653e1c9c" CreationDate="2018-02-02T08:18:26.140" UserId="3302" Text="So reading the Wikipedia article it seems unclear to me where the first occourence of Saint Peter's Cross being satanic came from.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact Wikipedia cites a rock band and movies as the most likely canidate which doesn't make much sense to me.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_of_Saint_Peter" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13161" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3299" RevisionGUID="ca4c5b1c-33df-435a-bdfc-8b00653e1c9c" CreationDate="2018-02-02T08:18:26.140" UserId="3302" Text="What was the first occurrence of Saint Peter's upside down cross being satanic?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13162" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3299" RevisionGUID="ca4c5b1c-33df-435a-bdfc-8b00653e1c9c" CreationDate="2018-02-02T08:18:26.140" UserId="3302" Text="|christianity|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13163" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3300" RevisionGUID="8c1bd6bf-e1ee-4570-bf6b-1fe3fcd24402" CreationDate="2018-02-02T09:02:43.217" UserId="57" Text="The *Book of the Heavenly Cow* revolves around mankind's rebellion against Ra: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The central theme of The Book of the Heavenly Cow is mankind's rebellion against the elder sun god, Re, resulting in the punishment of humans by the fiery &quot;eye&quot; of Re in the form of the goddess Hathor. It takes place after Re's long rule on earth. The first part places considerable emphasis on the royal role of the sun god, who bears the royal title and who's name is surrounded by a cartouche. He is specifically given rulership over both the deities and the humans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Prior to the rebellion, which required a complete reordering of the world, there had been a golden age where the various deities and humans were both under the sovereignty of the sun god. During this previous age, the sun god had not yet begun his daily course through the sky and the netherworld. Hence, there was no cycle of day and night, nor was there a netherworld and death did not exist.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Book of the Heavenly (Celestial) Cow, by Roland Mastaff][1]. Tour Egypt.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do we know the reason behind the rebellion? What compelled mankind to rise against Ra?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/celestrialcow.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13164" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3300" RevisionGUID="8c1bd6bf-e1ee-4570-bf6b-1fe3fcd24402" CreationDate="2018-02-02T09:02:43.217" UserId="57" Text="Why did mankind rebel against Ra?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13165" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3300" RevisionGUID="8c1bd6bf-e1ee-4570-bf6b-1fe3fcd24402" CreationDate="2018-02-02T09:02:43.217" UserId="57" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13166" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3299" RevisionGUID="d932dc00-4560-4ea3-8d5e-2f053395a640" CreationDate="2018-02-02T10:45:38.740" UserId="57" Comment="added 112 characters in body; edited title" Text="Reading the [Wikipedia article][1] it seems unclear to me when the Cross of Saint Peter first became associated with Satanism. What is the earliest occurrence of the upside down cross being used as a Satanic or anti-Christian symbol?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact, Wikipedia cites a rock band and movies as the most likely candidate which doesn't make much sense to me.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_of_Saint_Peter" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13167" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3299" RevisionGUID="d932dc00-4560-4ea3-8d5e-2f053395a640" CreationDate="2018-02-02T10:45:38.740" UserId="57" Comment="added 112 characters in body; edited title" Text="When did the Cross of Saint Peter started being used as a Satanic symbol?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13168" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3299" RevisionGUID="b912bd76-a5ad-4bf7-b917-cb5ddb8083ad" CreationDate="2018-02-02T11:15:47.977" UserId="3302" Comment="edited title" Text="When did the Cross of Saint Peter start being used as a Satanic symbol?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13169" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3301" RevisionGUID="4479ae10-7c3e-49a0-9e83-aa3a1a3a98c2" CreationDate="2018-02-02T16:43:22.990" UserId="4121" Text="Well depending on the definition of *classical hero*, the answer may change. For the sake of this answer I'll consider them to be the protagonists of the Greek tragedies (Hercules, Odysseus, Hector, et.al.) or even some modern day heroes (Harry Potter, Katniss Everdeen, etc, spring  to mind). Then you may be looking for what Joseph Campbell called the **Monomyth**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Campbell's opinion most stories of such nature followed a similar pattern, which he called the &quot;Heroes Journey&quot;, this according to him was a trend that was observed in multiple works of fiction which was not restricted to the ancient era (nor to a particular region), and  could be applied with minute changes to practically any age and hero. The cycle (simplified) is as follows -&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Courtesy TedEd][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;[1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/yT9NZ.png&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Image Courtesy TedEd&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This pattern is actually found in a large number of fictitious works, and a number of parallels can actually be drawn with real life heroes as well. &#xD;&#xA;For instance using the example of Yuri Gagarin (as you mentioned).The Soviet Cosmonaut program was first announced (*Call to Adventure*). He was first selected for the Soviet cosmonaut program (*Departure*). This was then followed by an extremely rigorous mental and physical regimen which was designed to help the selected group (called the Sochi Six) survive the rigors of space flight a number of the candidates were then eliminated (*Trials*). He was finally selected as the man who'd be aboard the spacecraft Vostok 1 (*Approach*). The spacecraft then took off from the Baikonur Cosmodrone, the G-force experienced on take-off is extremely high, the pilot is often unable to move, staying conscious at such high levels is also a task in itself (*Crisis*). Being the first man in space is definitely a reward, isn't it? (*Treasure*). Return to the Earth (*Return* and *Resolution*). And finally the re-establishment of *Status quo*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;TedEd has a wonderful video on the same, which can be found here- https://ed.ted.com/lessons/what-makes-a-hero-matthew-winkler#watch&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For a more detailed analysis you should read the book - &quot;The Hero With a Thousand Faces&quot; by Joseph Campbell.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hope this helps :)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13170" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3302" RevisionGUID="2d942a43-ce2f-4c7e-a86b-9dcf58ac8c41" CreationDate="2018-02-02T18:31:33.300" UserId="4271" Text="I have not found much. All I have found is that A'an resides in Duat(the Underworld/realm of the dead). As the god of equilibrium, he took the form of an ape. He recorded the weighing of the hearts of the dead as he was a scibe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is plausible that he, as A'an, not Ibis/Thoth, took part in the Three Epic Battles.&#xD;&#xA;[Thoth’s role within these battles was to ensure neither side won a complete victory, which would disrupt the balance of the universe. To prevent this from happening, Thoth would heal the wounds of the combatants.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although Thoth, the god of knowledge, is credited, it is likely to be A'an, the god of equilibrium, that participated to keep *balance of the universe.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://kingtutone.com/gods/thoth/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13172" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3303" RevisionGUID="6c1b5734-c038-4734-895d-8bc9714d9bfa" CreationDate="2018-02-02T19:12:27.963" UserId="2892" Text="Some brief thoughts, (answer may be evolving,) but I think the idea that &quot;there is nothing new under the sun&quot; sort of holds.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Anti-Hero**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One innovation we think of as modern is that of the anti-hero, but this template could be said to go back to Prometheus and Loki, both protagonists who resort to trickery, and face dire punishment, to attain their goals. Odysseus can also be seen in this light, in that he presents a distinct contrast to figures like Achilles, big Ajax, Diomedes and so on.  (Odysseus, for instance, is not as well regarded by the Greek dramatists because of his trickery--unlike Achilles, known for martial prowess and self-sacrifice, Odysseus is know for his wily scheming.  Ajax's suicide at the dishonor of being deprived of fallen Achilles' armor is a direct result of Odysseus conniving.  And yet, Odysseus is as famous as Achilles, and much loved as a character.)  Oedipus can also be regarded as an anti-hero: killed his father, married his mother, blinded himself. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we extend this to [Euripidean][1] heroines, we can include figures like [Medea][2] and [Hecuba][3]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Logical Hero**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One innovation that could be regarded as modern is the Lawyer.  While most television programs and films still focus on &quot;gun heroes&quot;, the modern version of the martial hero, legal, political and courtroom dramas abound.  These are heroes who use their intellect, as opposed to their physical prowess.  But we can find a template in heroines such as [Antigone][4].  The importance of that Sophoclean drama cannot be overstated, as it forms a basis for the modern understanding of the distinction between the law and justice, and demonstrates the willingness of the hero to face mortal consequences in persisting in what is right.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It would not be going to far to say that the heroes of the Iliad and Odyssey are pale flames compared to Antigone in this regard.  For another referent, one can look at [Polyxena][5]'s shaming of the victorious Achaeans with her courage and heroism. So the seeds for undermining the stature of martial heroes is planted in 5th Century Athens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Victim Hero**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is another template that can be seen as modern, with novels like [All Quiet On The Western Front][6], [Gulag Archipelago][7], and films such as [Boys Don't Cry][8].  But even this extends back to Ancient Greece with [Iphigenia][9], Polyxena and [Hippolytus][10].  These heroes, themselves blameless, expose the corruption of society.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euripides&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medea&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecuba_(play)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigone&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyxena&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Quiet_on_the_Western_Front&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gulag_Archipelago&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boys_Don%27t_Cry_(film)&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iphigenia_in_Aulis&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippolytus_(play)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13173" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3304" RevisionGUID="441fc320-d734-4c83-8bf6-1c25bef715ee" CreationDate="2018-02-03T02:12:25.530" UserId="3302" Text="According to scripture [Judaism doesn't support gay marriage][1].  [Christianity is similar][1].  [Hindiusm talks about people born with out gender parts and therefore being 3rd gender](https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/175/what-does-hinduism-say-about-third-gendered-people) but [ doesn't accept homosexuality](https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/8744/vedas-and-vedic-dharma-on-homosexuality).  [Buddhism says nothing about gay marriage or 3rd genders](https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/questions/1886/what-is-the-attitude-toward-homosexuality-in-buddhism).  [Islam also is against homosexuality][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would like to refrain from talking about 3rd genders(people born with out sexual parts or both) because there are incredibly rare compared to actual homosexuality and as outlined in Hinduism there are considered to be an exception.  Chinese religions like Taoism and Confucianism say nothing about this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any religions that are both old and explicitly support homosexuality?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/17815/how-do-christians-in-support-of-gay-marriage-interpret-anti-gay-bible-verses&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://islam.stackexchange.com/questions/226/what-does-the-quran-say-about-homosexuality" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13174" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3304" RevisionGUID="441fc320-d734-4c83-8bf6-1c25bef715ee" CreationDate="2018-02-03T02:12:25.530" UserId="3302" Text="Are there any religions that are both old and explicitly support homosexuality?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13175" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3304" RevisionGUID="441fc320-d734-4c83-8bf6-1c25bef715ee" CreationDate="2018-02-03T02:12:25.530" UserId="3302" Text="|abrahamic-religions|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13176" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3304" RevisionGUID="beb0fb06-6fe5-4ff5-bbec-6ede3dc12fb7" CreationDate="2018-02-03T02:33:32.840" UserId="3302" Comment="added 9 characters in body" Text="According to scripture [Judaism doesn't support gay marriage][1].  [Christianity is similar][1].  [Hindiusm talks about people born with out gender parts and therefore being 3rd gender](https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/175/what-does-hinduism-say-about-third-gendered-people) but [ doesn't accept homosexuality](https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/8744/vedas-and-vedic-dharma-on-homosexuality).  [Buddhism says nothing about gay marriage or 3rd genders](https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/questions/1886/what-is-the-attitude-toward-homosexuality-in-buddhism).  [Islam also is against homosexuality][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would like to refrain from talking about 3rd genders(people born with out sexual parts or both) because there are incredibly rare compared to actual homosexuality and as outlined in Hinduism there are considered to be an exception.  Chinese religions like Taoism and Confucianism say nothing about homosexuality.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any religions that are both old and explicitly support homosexuality?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/17815/how-do-christians-in-support-of-gay-marriage-interpret-anti-gay-bible-verses&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://islam.stackexchange.com/questions/226/what-does-the-quran-say-about-homosexuality" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13182" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3305" RevisionGUID="cf95048d-efa7-4127-95c5-eb6fd1eb77e1" CreationDate="2018-02-03T13:15:53.997" UserId="4105" Text="Apparently, the Egyptians believed all vultures to be female and thus strongly associated them with maternity. This belief gave birth to Nekhbet, the mother of mothers:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As its name suggests, the Egyptian Vulture was the sacred animal of the ancient Pharaohs; its appearance is immortalized in the Egyptian hieroglyphic alphabet as the letter A. Since the ancient Egyptians thought that all vultures were female and were spontaneously born from eggs without the intervention of a male, they linked these animals to purity and motherhood. In actuality, both genders happen to have the same appearance, the only difference being the larger size of the female. Nonetheless, they were held sacred to the mother goddess Isis; they were also elevated to the rank of deity in their own right as Nekhbet, patron of Upper Egypt and nurse of the Pharaoh. The priestesses of Nekhbet wore garments of white vulture feathers, and the goddess herself was often portrayed as a vulture-headed woman, her wings spread to provide protection, a circlet in her claws - the shen, symbol of infinity. Her cult was in fact linked to the eternal cycle of death and rebirth because of the vulture's role in the food chain as a scavenger and its supposed parthenogenesis; Nekhbet was venerated as the mother of mothers, who existed from the beginning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Egyptian Vulture: through mythology and history][1] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.rigelatin.net/vulture/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13183" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3306" RevisionGUID="0c2e3d50-07ae-44c2-9d04-c9c4189b3a1f" CreationDate="2018-02-03T14:09:59.247" UserId="4105" Text="While researching the question [What are the earliest known origins of Sasquatches in Native American culture in the Americas?][1] I found several sites claiming that [Leif Ericson][2] recorded an encounter with sasquatch in 968 AD. For example, the [Sasquatch Chronicles Blog][3]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The oldest account of Bigfoot was recorded in 986 AD by Leif Ericson and his men. During their first landing in the New World, the Norsemen wrote about manlike beasts that were “horribly ugly, hairy, swarthy and with great black eyes.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Among his accounts, Leif told of seeing huge hairy men who towered over him and his men. The “huge hairy men”, according to Leif, lived in the Woods and had a rank odour and a deafening shriek. It should be noted that Leif Ericson and his men describe huge manlike beasts that were loud and foul-smelling and clearly distinct from native peoples. Apparently, Leif had several sightings of the “huge hairy men” before departing the island.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They called the creature “Skellring”. People believe that the creature “Skellring” is what we know today as Bigfoot. This is the earliest recorded encounter with Bigfoot, or Sasquatch.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the source of this story? Is an encounter with a creature that resembles sasquatch mentioned in any of the sagas that chronicle Leif Ericson's travels?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/1805/4105&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leif_Erikson&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://sasquatchchronicles.com/the-oldest-account-of-bigfoot-was-recorded-in-986-ad/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13184" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3306" RevisionGUID="0c2e3d50-07ae-44c2-9d04-c9c4189b3a1f" CreationDate="2018-02-03T14:09:59.247" UserId="4105" Text="What is the source of Leif Ericson's encounter with sasquatch?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13185" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3306" RevisionGUID="0c2e3d50-07ae-44c2-9d04-c9c4189b3a1f" CreationDate="2018-02-03T14:09:59.247" UserId="4105" Text="|norse|cryptozoology|sasquatch|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13186" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1805" RevisionGUID="6cfa508b-0a65-4095-b226-c0cd4d976a18" CreationDate="2018-02-03T15:33:29.187" UserId="57" Comment="removed folklore tag, see: https://mythology.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/429/should-we-do-anything-about-the-folklore-tag" Text="What are the earliest known origins of Sasquatches in Native American culture of North or South America?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Almost everybody has heard about these mysterious creatures known as [Sasquatches or Bigfoot][1], but can anyone tell me the earliest know legend (documented or otherwise) pertaining to this subject in Native American folklore?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Life Size Image of a Bigfoot][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigfoot&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/QT8gb.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13187" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1805" RevisionGUID="6cfa508b-0a65-4095-b226-c0cd4d976a18" CreationDate="2018-02-03T15:33:29.187" UserId="57" Comment="removed folklore tag, see: https://mythology.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/429/should-we-do-anything-about-the-folklore-tag" Text="|cryptozoology|sasquatch|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13188" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3307" RevisionGUID="87f282a7-3f48-4a55-9e33-2dfba63fb1d8" CreationDate="2018-02-03T16:27:35.033" UserId="57" Text="The &quot;Greenfield Papyrus&quot; is a funerary illustrated manuscript from the &quot;Book of the Dead&quot; of Nestanebetisheru: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[!['Book of the Dead' of Nestanebtasheru (sheet 87): Geb is shown as a semi-recumbent figure stretching out his limbs while the elongated body of Nut arches above him. Her feet touch the ground at the eastern horizon and her fingers at the western horizon. She is supported by a third key-figure, Shu, god of the atmosphere, who is aided in his task by two ram-headed deities. Nestanebisheru herself kneels at the right, raising her hands in adoration; her 'ba'-spirit imitates her gesture, and a group of gods accompany her.][1]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the [British Museum curator's comments][3]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This scene is a symbolic representation of the creation of the world. According to mythology, this occurred when the sky goddess Nut was raised aloft to form a heavenly canopy above the earth, personified as the god Geb. Geb is shown as a semi-recumbent figure stretching out his limbs while the elongated body of Nut arches above him. Her feet touch the ground at the eastern horizon and her fingers at the western horizon. She is supported by a third key-figure, Shu, god of the atmosphere, who is aided in his task by two ram-headed deities. Nestanebetisheru herself kneels at the right, raising her hands in adoration; her 'ba'-spirit imitates her gesture, and a group of gods accompany her. This scene became a common one on papyri and coffins in the 21st Dynasty, for the process of creation which it depicts was closely linked in the minds of the Egyptians with the renewal of life for the dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What do we know about the ram-headed deities helping the primordial [Shu][4]? Do they have names, and do they appear elsewhere in Egyptian mythology?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Hom7b.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details/collection_image_gallery.aspx?partid=1&amp;assetid=704826001&amp;objectid=114900&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=114900&amp;partId=1&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shu_(Egyptian_god)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13189" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3307" RevisionGUID="87f282a7-3f48-4a55-9e33-2dfba63fb1d8" CreationDate="2018-02-03T16:27:35.033" UserId="57" Text="What do we know about the ram-headed deities helping Shu support Nut in the Greenfield Papyrus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13190" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3307" RevisionGUID="87f282a7-3f48-4a55-9e33-2dfba63fb1d8" CreationDate="2018-02-03T16:27:35.033" UserId="57" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13192" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3308" RevisionGUID="2c54beed-07fb-4b1e-8490-b4968eb902ea" CreationDate="2018-02-03T19:43:46.193" UserId="666" Text="**TLDR: Your source is either making things up, or quoting from someone who did.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greenlander's journeys to North America are known mainly from two Sagas: the *[Grænlendinga saga][1]* (&quot;The Saga of the Greenlanders&quot;) and the [*Eiríks saga rauða*][2] (&quot;The Saga of Erik the Red&quot;), plus some mentions in other sources . The Skrælings are thus not the inventions of one writer. However, they were not mystical beasts, but ordinary people: both the Thule people (ancestors of modern Inuits) on Greenland as well as inhabitants of Northern America were called Skraelings by the Norse. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a description of the Skraelings in the *Saga of Eric the Red*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;They were short men, ill-looking, with their hair in disorderly fashion on their heads; they were large-eyed, and had broad cheeks. &lt;br&gt;*[The Icelandic saga database.][3]*: The Saga of Erik the Red, Chapter 10. Translation by J. Sephton. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you can see, only the hairy bit can be said to fit, and other details are the exact opposite of your quote, or totally absent. The Saga also tells how two Skraelings came to live on Greenland for one winter. (The *Saga of the Greenlanders* gives a more violent account; there the two peoples never learn to talk to eachother, but it's still clear that the Skraelings are human).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The word *Skraeling* seems to survive in modern Icelandic, meaning Barbarian. One suggested, but by no means sure, etymology of it derives it from a word for shouting, which at least somewhat fits a part of the description.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenland_saga&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saga_of_Erik_the_Red&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://sagadb.org/eiriks_saga_rauda.en" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13194" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3310" RevisionGUID="0999c0a9-b47e-496c-bcc3-023cddd65ab0" CreationDate="2018-02-04T02:41:19.890" UserId="4674" Text="In episode I of *The Epic of Gilgamesh*, why does Shamash help the trapper rather than Enkidu, a creation of his peers who was created to help the people oppressed by Gilgamesh? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13195" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3310" RevisionGUID="0999c0a9-b47e-496c-bcc3-023cddd65ab0" CreationDate="2018-02-04T02:41:19.890" UserId="4674" Text="Why does Shamash help the trapper rather than Enkidu?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13196" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3310" RevisionGUID="0999c0a9-b47e-496c-bcc3-023cddd65ab0" CreationDate="2018-02-04T02:41:19.890" UserId="4674" Text="|gilgamesh|mesopotamia|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13200" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3311" RevisionGUID="1c24f4df-9ce4-424e-9427-6cab89d45c78" CreationDate="2018-02-04T15:23:39.430" UserId="4105" Text="One source mentioning the rivers is Book X of the Odyssey: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So I spoke, and the beautiful goddess straightway made answer: ‘Son of Laertes, sprung from Zeus, Odysseus of many devices, let there be in thy mind no concern for a pilot to guide thy ship, but set up thy mast, and spread the white sail, and sit thee down; and the breath of the North Wind will bear her onward. But when in thy ship thou hast now crossed the stream of Oceanus, where is a level shore and the groves of Persephone—tall poplars, and willows that shed their fruit—there do thou beach thy ship by the deep eddying Oceanus, but go thyself to the dank house of Hades. There into Acheron flow Periphlegethon and Cocytus, which is a branch of the water of the Styx; and there is a rock, and the meeting place of the two roaring rivers. Thither, prince, do thou draw nigh, as I bid thee, and dig a pit of a cubit's length this way and that, and around it pour a libation to all the dead, first with milk and honey, thereafter with sweet wine, and in the third place with water, and sprinkle thereon white barley meal. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Homer. The Odyssey with an English Translation by A.T. Murray, PH.D. in two volumes. Cambridge, MA., Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann, Ltd. 1919.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0012.tlg002.perseus-eng1:10.503-10.545" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13201" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3312" RevisionGUID="955fe25e-dc14-448c-8575-51ae845ea0cb" CreationDate="2018-02-05T04:02:01.980" UserId="4657" Text="Does anyone know the title of this story and where it was translated from? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://books.google.com/books?id=FIlAAAAAIAAJ&amp;pg=PA363&amp;lpg=PA363&amp;dq=russian+folktales+enchantress+blue+rose+tree&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=4XgmTHMH_C&amp;sig=TOqFZ7ktJwzkCnexx9BSWHNzE38&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwjVk8Dk7o3ZAhUB7mMKHUAHBCQQ6AEwDnoECAcQAQ#v=snippet&amp;q=russian%20folktales%20enchantress%20blue%20rose%20tree&amp;f=true![enter image description here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/9Q9E6.png)![enter image description here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/8ch86.png)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13202" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3312" RevisionGUID="955fe25e-dc14-448c-8575-51ae845ea0cb" CreationDate="2018-02-05T04:02:01.980" UserId="4657" Text="The Enchantress and the blue rose tree" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13203" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3312" RevisionGUID="955fe25e-dc14-448c-8575-51ae845ea0cb" CreationDate="2018-02-05T04:02:01.980" UserId="4657" Text="|slavic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13204" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3313" RevisionGUID="01898a71-e2a7-4f25-ac16-43c26374c0da" CreationDate="2018-02-05T07:22:23.853" UserId="4527" Text="What is the earliest legend we know of, that involves someone (named or otherwise) being turned into an animal, or some terrible monster? This includes turning someone's unborn child into a monster, like the legend of the minotaur." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13205" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3313" RevisionGUID="01898a71-e2a7-4f25-ac16-43c26374c0da" CreationDate="2018-02-05T07:22:23.853" UserId="4527" Text="Earliest legend of someone being turned into an animal/monster?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13206" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3313" RevisionGUID="01898a71-e2a7-4f25-ac16-43c26374c0da" CreationDate="2018-02-05T07:22:23.853" UserId="4527" Text="|history|monsters|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13207" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3295" RevisionGUID="48b73203-0eae-4916-af7b-cc36895009c1" CreationDate="2018-02-05T10:16:24.123" UserId="3244" Comment="Probably corrected sentence." Text="That's not entirely true, Gaea for instance appears more than once in the myths, even after the castration of Ouranos (Note that it is not mentioned that Ouranos is killed, just castrated and then consequently bound). The first instance is when Kronos starts eating his own children, Rhea goes and weeps to her mother (Gaea) and asks her for advice. Gaea then suggests to her the plan to replace her youngest son(Zeus) by a stone, and smuggle him to her so that she could take care of him. She then ensured that Kronos could not hear young Zeus' wailing by having Naiads disguise the sound by smashing rocks together. &#xD;&#xA;She later helps in training young Zeus to overcome his father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Hesiod, Theogony 462 ff (trans. Evelyn-White) (Greek epic C8th or C7th B.C.) :&#xD;&#xA;&quot;[Kronos (Cronus)] learned from Gaia (Gaea, Earth) and starry Ouranos (Uranus, Heaven) that he was destined to be overcome by his own son, strong though he was, through the contriving of great Zeus.Therefore he kept no blind outlook, but watched and swallowed down his children : and unceasing grief seized Rhea. But when she was about to bear Zeus, the father of gods and men, then she besought her own dear parents, Gaia and starry Ouranos, to devise some plan with her that the birth of her dear child might be concealed... Him did vast Gaia (Earth) receive from Rhea in wide Krete to nourish and to bring up...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She appears once more (that I am aware of) during the war of the Giants, Gaea is angered by the actions of the gods, especially that of Zeus so she conspires with Tartarus and gives birth to her second set of children, the Giants. Each of whom is destined to fight against one of their counterparts in the Greek gods.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Pseudo-Hyginus, Preface (trans. Grant) (Roman mythographer C2nd A.D.) :&#xD;&#xA;&quot;From Terra (Earth) [Gaia] and Tartarus [were born], Gigantes (Giants) : Enceladus, Coeus, elentes, mophius, Astreaus, Pelorus, Pallas, Emphytus, Rhoecus, ienios, Agrius, alemone, Ephialtes, Eurytus, effracorydon, Theomises, Theodamas, Otus, Typhon, Polybotes, menephriarus, abesus, colophonus, Iapetus.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Ovid, Metamorphoses 1. 156 ff (trans. Melville) (Roman epic C1st B.C. to C1st A.D.) :&quot;Gigantes (Giants), it's said, to win the gods' domain, mountain on mountain reared and reached the stars.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But it is also true that they don't appear often in the works of the more recent Greek author, this can be attributed to the fact that most of these authors focused on the age of Heroes(wherein the Titans and the Elder Gods did not play an important role.), the Gods were merely the procreators in this age and in some cases the barrier/nemesis that the Hero had to overcome in his quest for Glory (for example Heracles and Hera).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second part of the question has more to do with Anthropology(if I'm interpreting your question correctly), It is highly likely that the Elder Gods were Deities of a tribe that was either defeated or assimilated into another tribe. It could also be an indication of the changing  belief systems of the tribe, a shift in focus as such from more general beliefs such as *Sky* and *Earth* to more specific domains that they believed would help in their various ventures, such as Agriculture(Demeter), wishing for fair weather at Sea(Poseidon), etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A very good resource for this would be the **Greek Myths** by *Robert Graves*, he has very concisely built a case for the development of the various myths, and a corresponding event that may have occurred. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;References- &#xD;&#xA;http://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Ouranos.html&#xD;&#xA;http://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Gaia.html&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13208" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3295" RevisionGUID="48b73203-0eae-4916-af7b-cc36895009c1" CreationDate="2018-02-05T10:16:24.123" Comment="Proposed by 3244 approved by 4121 edit id of 523" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13211" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3312" RevisionGUID="9abea624-4314-42b2-966a-993f96fd3d98" CreationDate="2018-02-05T11:20:53.770" UserId="201" Comment="cleaned up link" Text="Does anyone know the title of this story and where it was translated from? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;a href=&quot;https://books.google.com/books?id=FIlAAAAAIAAJ&amp;pg=PA363&amp;lpg=PA363&amp;dq=russian+folktales+enchantress+blue+rose+tree&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=4XgmTHMH_C&amp;sig=TOqFZ7ktJwzkCnexx9BSWHNzE38&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwjVk8Dk7o3ZAhUB7mMKHUAHBCQQ6AEwDnoECAcQAQ#v=snippet&amp;q=russian%20folktales%20enchantress%20blue%20rose%20tree&amp;f=true!&quot;&gt;Source&lt;/a&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/9Q9E6.png)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/8ch86.png)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13213" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3314" RevisionGUID="70770f7e-79d8-4cef-a514-c69eafd9d29c" CreationDate="2018-02-05T13:39:42.817" UserId="4105" Text="Odysseys during his travel to the Underworld in Book XI of the Odyssey meets the &quot;phantom&quot; of the deified Heracles:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And after him I marked the mighty Heracles—his phantom; for he himself among the immortal gods takes his joy in the feast, and has to wife Hebe, of the fair ankles, daughter of great Zeus and of Here, of the golden sandals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Homer. The Odyssey with an English Translation by A.T. Murray, PH.D. in two volumes. Cambridge, MA., Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann, Ltd. 1919.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why are there two versions of Heracles in the afterlife? How is the version Odysseys meets different from the one in Olympus? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0012.tlg002.perseus-eng1:11.601" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13214" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3314" RevisionGUID="70770f7e-79d8-4cef-a514-c69eafd9d29c" CreationDate="2018-02-05T13:39:42.817" UserId="4105" Text="Why is Heracles in the Underworld?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13215" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3314" RevisionGUID="70770f7e-79d8-4cef-a514-c69eafd9d29c" CreationDate="2018-02-05T13:39:42.817" UserId="4105" Text="|greek|underworld|hercules|odyssey|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13216" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3314" RevisionGUID="3e7597e4-2fdc-4b22-aa98-56132de475d7" CreationDate="2018-02-05T13:46:05.017" UserId="4105" Comment="added 25 characters in body" Text="Odysseys during his travel to the Underworld in Book XI of the Odyssey meets the &quot;phantom&quot; of the deified Heracles:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And after him I marked the mighty Heracles—his phantom; for he himself among the immortal gods takes his joy in the feast, and has to wife Hebe, of the fair ankles, daughter of great Zeus and of Here, of the golden sandals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Homer. The Odyssey with an English Translation by A.T. Murray, PH.D. in two volumes. Cambridge, MA., Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann, Ltd. 1919.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why are there two versions of Heracles in the afterlife? How is the phantom version Odysseys meets different from the one enjoying himself in Olympus? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0012.tlg002.perseus-eng1:11.601" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13217" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3315" RevisionGUID="9da1f2cf-d796-4ac6-8858-7912861269ec" CreationDate="2018-02-05T18:36:23.210" UserId="4271" Text="**Background info-**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Heracles was a demigod. After his 3rd wife thought she had an adversary, she pulled out the vile of Centaur blood she received years before and spread it on his shirt. The Centaur told her that his blood was a kind of love potion, but it was actually a kind of acid. So, when he put the shirt on, he grew in pain. His skin melted and the shirt melded to his body, inabling him to take it off. The pain was so intense, he built a pyre to die. But, it was long decided by Zeus that Heracles would become a god upon death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, Heracles the demigod became a full god. Because Odysseus saw him in the Underworld, we know that his mortal self made its way to the Underworld like all those who die.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Answer-**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What was left of Heracles's mortal self traveled to the land of the dead. At the same time, Heracles's godly self is up on Mount Olympus." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13218" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3316" RevisionGUID="5653a065-9a41-4ee3-be38-f5b3f9539230" CreationDate="2018-02-05T22:11:58.870" UserId="2682" Text="THE NAMES OF THE PAIR&#xD;&#xA;=======&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Next to their pictures on the papyrus, the divinities' names (or epithets?) are written in *Medw Neter*, the &quot;Words of God,&quot; i.e. hieroglyphs by their name in the language of Ancient Egypt. The god towards the left is called &quot;Pure/Special/Holy *Ba*.&quot; The other one, towards the right, is called &quot;Perfect *Ba Shut*.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In 1912 the British Museum published Sir Ernest Alfred Thompson Wallis Budge's book, all on this subject, titled ***The Greenfield Papyrus in the British Museum**: The Funerary Papyrus of Princess Nesitanebtȧshru, Daughter of Painetchem II and Nesi-Khensu, and Priestess of Amen-Rā at Thebes, About B.C. 970*. In it Budge supplies a detailed description of every &quot;collotype facsimile&quot; that was made into image-plates from the contents of the papyrus.&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The image you're asking about is numbered &quot;Sheet 87&quot; and shows up on &quot;Plate CVI,&quot; which is displayed on [p. 358](https://archive.org/stream/greenfieldpapyru00ness#page/n357/mode/2up) and supplied with a description and interpretation on [pp. 79-80](https://archive.org/stream/greenfieldpapyru00ness#page/78/mode/2up): &#xD;&#xA;&gt; On the right of Shu&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; stands a ram-headed god, with his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hands raised, who is described as the &quot;perfect soul Shut (?)&quot;...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Budge then indicates that this is a translation of the line of text directly above this character's head, beneath Nut's mouth.&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;[![Perfect Ba Shut][1]][1]   &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Budge most commonly translates *ba* as &quot;soul&quot; (although [Ancient Egyptian psychological anthropology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_concept_of_the_soul) is about seven times more complex than the English word &quot;soul&quot; might suggest, but he evidently does it in order to provide a more familiar term for his readers). The question-mark applied to the word *Shut* implies that he is unaware of what it signifies. Perhaps it is the name of this &quot;perfect soul/*ba*&quot; (and might be a word related to *Shu*?).&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In front of Shu&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; stands a similar ram-headed god, who is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; called...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;as his label [![Holy Ba][2]][2] indicates, &quot;Special *Ba*&quot; or rather, as Budge puts it, &quot;Holy Soul&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;See the column of text directly behind this god, in front of Nut's shins. His name appears at the top of the column, which is actually the end of this phrase (which has been written from bottom to top).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;*(Here's a detail of the relevant portion of the image, for easier reference.)*&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;In between Shu and Special-*Ba* is another piece of text which says &quot;Rā Sets in the Land of Life.&quot; Rā is, however, absent from the image, as Budge notes at the end of his breakdown.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Next to the arm of the goddess, directly behind Perfect-*Ba-Shut*, is a text column which reads &quot;The Sky, the Support of Rā: Nut, the Mother of the *Neteru*&quot; (the *Neteru* being the Gods).&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Some papyri and other documents represent the sun sailing over&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the back of Nut in two boats, one being the boat of the morning sun,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and the other the boat of the evening sun, and elsewhere we see the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; god Shu holding up the boat of the sun, with the solar disk on the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; horizon. On the left, a little above the hips of the goddess, facing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the god of Eternity, is another ram-headed god, who kneels with his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hands raised in adoration of the goddess.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;*This* ram-headed god's name is, according to the three-line block of text directly in front of him, the &quot;*Ba* Which Embraces All Things.&quot; The &quot;God of Eternity,&quot; pictured just in front of Nut's head, is called Ḥeḥ, and, more precisely, he represents the figure of a million (or a plurality of millions of) years [= the literal meaning of his name] rather than eternity.&lt;/sup&gt;    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In 1920, *An Egyptian Hieropglyphic Dictionary*, another book by Budge, was published.&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; I've looked through it for a straight trans*liter*ation, rather than a translation, of the names he provides for the two ram-headed deities in question from *The Greenfield Papyrus*. There are two different names which he says both mean &quot;Holy Soul,&quot; both of which appear on [p. 199 of the dictionary](https://archive.org/stream/Budge.AnEgyptianHieroglyphicDictionary.vol.1#page/n353/mode/2up). The first of them, **Ba-sheps**, he says is &quot;a title of Osiris,&quot; while the second one, **Ba-tcheser**, is, he explains, &quot;a form of Osiris.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Neither of these, however, seems to refer to the &quot;Holy *Ba*&quot; in our scene. The hieroglyphs for *ba* are the only portions of the words which match. Incidentally the (completely theriomorphic) ram standing directly in front of Nut (by her arm, below Ḥeḥ) is labelled ***Ba-shep*** (still in hieroglyphs which fail to correspond to the characters we're looking at). The difference between this and *Ba-shep**s*** seems to give Budge pause about what this word means but his guess is that it might also mean &quot;Holy Soul.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Additionally, on Sheet 86 of the papyrus (the sheet immediately preceding ours), Princess Nesitanebtȧshru appears kneeling before and saluting yet another ram-headed god, this one wielding a sceptre, wearing the *Atef* crown, and named **Ba-ṭesher**. The difference between this name and *Ba-tcheser* is very subtle but, going by Budge, it makes all the difference, since he translates it as the &quot;Red Ram&quot;, so apparently not the same as the aforementioned &quot;*Holy-Soul* form of Osiris&quot;, unless, i.e. we are to understand &quot;Holy Soul&quot; and &quot;Red Ram&quot; as puns for each other, or as otherwise-associated concepts. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;SIGNIFICATION&#xD;&#xA;=======&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Budge does not supply an explanation for who or what Special-*Ba* and Perfect-*Ba-Shut* are supposed to be beyond &quot;ram-headed gods&quot;, but as it happens, in Ancient Egyptian the word *ba* also means &quot;ram&quot; or &quot;sheep&quot; (see p. 200 of Budge's dictionary), which would explain why there are so many rams and ram-headed men depicted all over the Greenfield Papyrus with names that have to do with the *ba*-soul (and considering also that this is essentially a comic-book elaborating Nesitanebtȧshru's afterlife sojourn).           &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wind was known as *Ba-en-Shu*, the &quot;Soul of Shu&quot; (see the afore-cited p. 200 again), so perhaps Special-*Ba* and Perfect-*Ba-Shut* are projections of Shu. Shmoop, however, in its [short article on this image](https://www.shmoop.com/geb-nut/photo-shu-gets-some-help.html), entitled &quot;Shu Gets Some Help,&quot; has a different explanation for this:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; What happens when Shu gets too tired to hold Nut up? He gets help from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Heh (eternity) spirits, so they hold *him* up!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This interpretation of what these figures represent is perhaps not unreasonable. As mentioned above, Ḥeḥ is the man appearing as the fourth figure from the right in the topmost row of your image. Directly below him, in the middle row, is the ram named Ba-shep. Directly across from him, past Nut's back, is the ram-headed man named *Ba*-Which-Embraces-All-Things. Beyond this, however, it is not at all obvious to me how Shu's companions here are connected to Ḥeḥ.        &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similar compositions of these figures occur with some variations in other funerary artwork from the period. On [the coffin of Tanakhtnettahat](https://www.flickr.com/photos/101561334@N08/10450947674/in/photostream/), for instance, Shu is accompanied, instead, by a pair of ram-headed *birds* instead of his more humanoid associates. These ram-headed versions of the birds are, however, always each equipped with a pair of human arms. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - An example of this, from a different piece of artwork, is shown below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Shu, Geb &amp; Nut][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;In her book *Egyptian Iconography on Syro-Palestinian Cylinder Seals of the Middle Bronze Age* (on p. 191), Beatrice Teissier&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; says that in the New Kingdom, which ended just before the dynastic era presently concerning us, &quot;Amun-Re and Re-Atum... were represented as ram-headed birds.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In his 1904 book *The Gods of the Egyptians, or Studies in Egyptian Mythology*, Budge illustrates a reconstruction of such a scene, in which Shu's companions are fully avian birds (on an insert sheet between pp. 96 &amp; 97).&lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Shu, Geb &amp; Nut][5]][5]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*This scene has morning and evening Rā sailing along Nut's legs and arms in the two boat(s) described in an earlier quote above from* The Greenfield Papyrus. Shmoop [identifies](https://www.shmoop.com/geb-nut/photo-a-sky-full-gods.html) the two birds here as hawks representing Horus the Elder and Horus the Younger.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - A coffin at the Egypt Centre Museum of Antiquities in Swansea has a third variation with the two ram-headed companions *themselves* attended by a pair of part-bird figures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][6]][6]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Reconstruction of a fairly grungy [original](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-vwUoYnPjLGo/VOcLKvSSGUI/AAAAAAAAAUc/Iqxishv1_RI/s1600/separation1.jpg)*&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In a fourth alternative, Shu's sidekicks are a pair of what look like *ba*-souls, which typically are represented as human-headed birds and, in similarity to the ram-headed birds, they each have a pair of human arms too.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;[![Museo Egizio Torino][7]][7]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Notice how Nesitanebtȧshru's *ba* appears in this part-bird form twice in the scene from your Question, in the middle and bottom rows to the right of the image.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Fifthly and finally, on the coffin of Nespawershefyt, the two human-headed (and bearded), avian *ba* figures appear together with Shu *in addition to* the two ram-headed men, making for a whole lot of fairly inconclusive evidence regarding whether the ram-headed men or ram-headed birds are supposed to signify the same thing as the human-headed birds whenever each of these pairs appears without any other pair accompanying Shu.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Coffin of Nespawershepi][8]][8] &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*On [another part of this coffin](http://www-img.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/img/ant/ant47/E.1.1822.c_08_200604_adn21_dc2_edit.jpg) Shu is accompanied only by a pair of the human-headed birds.*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;KHNUM?&#xD;&#xA;=======&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is one other interpretation in circulation which appears to be relatively popular. Rolf Werner Friedrich Gross, and Ottar Vendel, as well as the website GodElectric.org all say that both of the ram-headed men are the god Khnum appearing in duplicate. This is understandable considering that although there are several ram-headed Egyptian gods, the breed of ram appearing either completely theriomorphically or as the head of numerous deities in these Dynasty-XXI artifacts looks most like the Khnum ram. However, if Budge is to be believed, they seem to tend rather towards being hypostases of Asar (Osiris).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moustafa Gadalla&lt;sup&gt;7&lt;/sup&gt; makes these remarks in his book *Egyptian Divinities: The All Who Are The One*:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Khnum represents the embodiment of the creative force of Re ... Khnum&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is depicted in some context as a ram-headed bird. This bird represents&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Ba of Ra [Re]—The All encompassing Ba—The Divine Soul.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Notes**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Budge, E.A.W. 1912. *The Greenfield Papyrus in the British Museum*. The British Museum, London.&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. What Budge really means here is, rather: To the right of the printed *image* away from Shu (i.e. the reader's right), which is actually = Shu's left-hand side.&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. Now to Shu's actual right-hand side, but to the reader's left.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;4. Budge, E.A.W. 1920. *An Egyptian Hieroglyphic Dictionary, With an Index of English Words, King List and Geographical List with Indexes, List of Hieroglyphic Characters, Coptic and Semitic Alphabets, Etc. Volume 1*. John Murray, London.&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;5. Teissier, B. 1996. *Egyptian Iconography on Syro-Palestinian Cylinder Seals of the Middle Bronze Age*. University Press; Göttingen: Vandehoeck &amp; Ruprecht, Fribourg, Switzerland.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;6. Budge, E.A.W. 1904. *The Gods of the Egyptians, or Studies in Egyptian Mythology*. Methuen &amp; Co., London.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;7. Gadalla, M. 2017. *Egyptian Divinities: The All Who Are The One*. Tehuti Research Foundation, Greensboro, NC.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/1iBaN.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/6wnrZ.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/yCMLu.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/RqAf1.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/VPwCA.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/aaeQg.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/2WpJR.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/PEslo.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13220" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3312" RevisionGUID="161ee4ea-799b-419a-8ffd-3052787da98e" CreationDate="2018-02-05T22:51:02.303" UserId="4657" Comment="deleted 147 characters in body" Text="Does anyone know the title of this story and where it was translated from? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://books.google.com/books?id=FIlAAAAAIAAJ&amp;pg=PA363&amp;lpg=PA363&amp;dq=russian+folktales+enchantress+blue+rose+tree&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=4XgmTHMH_C&amp;sig=TOqFZ7ktJwzkCnexx9BSWHNzE38&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwjVk8Dk7o3ZAhUB7mMKHUAHBCQQ6AEwDnoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=true&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/9Q9E6.png)&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13222" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="3170" RevisionGUID="812976a8-c14c-4de7-ad34-ecb4af5e1a88" CreationDate="2018-02-06T13:37:53.467" UserId="-1" Comment="57" />
  <row Id="13223" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3312" RevisionGUID="50a3fe7a-6ea1-45e2-8631-421b0e8078de" CreationDate="2018-02-06T14:35:52.893" UserId="108" Comment="added 28 characters in body" Text="Does anyone know the title of this story and where it was translated from? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![enter image description here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/9Q9E6.png)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Source: *the Golden Bough*](https://books.google.com/books?id=FIlAAAAAIAAJ&amp;pg=PA363&amp;lpg=PA363&amp;dq=russian+folktales+enchantress+blue+rose+tree&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=4XgmTHMH_C&amp;sig=TOqFZ7ktJwzkCnexx9BSWHNzE38&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwjVk8Dk7o3ZAhUB7mMKHUAHBCQQ6AEwDnoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=true)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13224" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3318" RevisionGUID="7d71f099-b537-4d9d-b62e-bcfff33eda39" CreationDate="2018-02-06T14:36:15.887" UserId="4271" Text="The name of the book is The Golden Bough: A Study in Magic and Religion, by Sir James George Frazer. The title of the chapter (number 66) is The External Soul. The name In Slavic Stories lets you know it takes place in the Slavic region. As for translation, I believe the story takes place in Russia." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13225" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3319" RevisionGUID="ed38dd33-1d7e-4230-be8c-5d56532348ec" CreationDate="2018-02-06T14:57:55.270" UserId="108" Text="Sir James George Frazer cited this story from the 1873 book *Russian Folk-Tales* by [William Ralston Shedden-Ralston](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Ralston_Shedden-Ralston). Ralston, in turn, translated it from Ivan Khudyakov's 1861 collection *Russian Fairy Tales*, where it was numbered 109.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13226" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3319" RevisionGUID="4d53681c-0585-4280-87e5-dbbef352e1e4" CreationDate="2018-02-06T15:11:28.453" UserId="108" Comment="added 700 characters in body" Text="Sir James George Frazer cited this story from the 1873 book *Russian Folk-Tales* by [William Ralston Shedden-Ralston](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Ralston_Shedden-Ralston). Ralston, in turn, translated it from Ivan Khudyakov's 1861 collection *Russian Fairy Tales*, where it was numbered 109. Clearly the story is Russian in origin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ralston did *not* give the story a title, which probably indicates that neither did Khudyakov (but I can't read Russian, so someone else would have to confirm this). Traditional folk tales rarely come with names, or rather, only one widely accepted name. Hence many fairy tale collections use numbering instead. So we could reasonably say, **there isn't a title.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the other hand, in his [*The Golden Bouch*](https://books.google.com/books?id=gW3lHH32tvQC&amp;pg=PA110&amp;dq=&quot;death+in+the+blue+rose-tree&quot;), Frazier gave the paragraphing with the story the subtitle, **&quot;Death in the blue-rose tree&quot;**. This is as close to a name as there is, in English at least." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13227" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3320" RevisionGUID="a9444c2d-03fa-401d-84b6-cd1e2e4709f1" CreationDate="2018-02-06T19:12:55.900" UserId="4680" Text="I'm not sure if this is the right place to post, maybe this question belongs on a history/culture stackexchange, but here goes. This question might be a little vague, so let me try to narrow it down a bit. What i'm looking for is not a collection of storys and myths per se, but something more general like an analysis/dissection or meta discussion of the myth of Odin and Norse mythology in general (something like Campbell's &quot;Hero with a thousand faces&quot;). Odin fascinates me by the scale on which he was revered (the guy has over 100 names!) and his character (combining the wisdom/wanderer god and the warrior/leader god aspects), and if any of you could provide me with some worthwhile material on this i would be truly grateful!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13228" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3320" RevisionGUID="a9444c2d-03fa-401d-84b6-cd1e2e4709f1" CreationDate="2018-02-06T19:12:55.900" UserId="4680" Text="Books about Norse mythology (specifically Odin)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13229" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3320" RevisionGUID="a9444c2d-03fa-401d-84b6-cd1e2e4709f1" CreationDate="2018-02-06T19:12:55.900" UserId="4680" Text="|norse|odin|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13232" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3316" RevisionGUID="a53480be-1a10-4023-ae62-b0af2badfeb7" CreationDate="2018-02-07T08:30:58.243" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar, improved formatting &amp; added a detail" Text="THE NAMES OF THE PAIR&#xD;&#xA;=======&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Next to their pictures on the papyrus, the divinities' names (or epithets?) are written in *Medw Neter*, the &quot;Words of God,&quot; i.e. hieroglyphs by their designation in the language of Ancient Egypt. The god towards the left is called &quot;Pure/Special/Holy *Ba*.&quot; The other one, towards the right, is called &quot;Perfect *Ba Shut*.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In 1912 the British Museum published Sir Ernest Alfred Thompson Wallis Budge's book, all on this subject, titled ***The Greenfield Papyrus in the British Museum**: The Funerary Papyrus of Princess Nesitanebtȧshru, Daughter of Painetchem II and Nesi-Khensu, and Priestess of Amen-Rā at Thebes, About B.C. 970*. In it Budge supplies a detailed description of every &quot;collotype facsimile&quot; that was made into image-plates from the contents of the papyrus.&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The image you're asking about is numbered &quot;Sheet 87&quot; and shows up on &quot;Plate CVI,&quot; which is displayed on [p. 358](https://archive.org/stream/greenfieldpapyru00ness#page/n357/mode/2up) and supplied with a description and interpretation on [pp. 79-80](https://archive.org/stream/greenfieldpapyru00ness#page/78/mode/2up): &#xD;&#xA;&gt; On the right of Shu&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; stands a ram-headed god, with his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hands raised, who is described as the &quot;perfect soul Shut (?)&quot;...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Budge then indicates that this is a translation of the line of text directly above this character's head, beneath Nut's mouth.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;[![Perfect Ba Shut][1]][1]   &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Budge most commonly translates *ba* as &quot;soul&quot; (although [Ancient Egyptian psychological anthropology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_concept_of_the_soul) is about seven times more complex than the English word &quot;soul&quot; might suggest, but he evidently does it in order to provide a more familiar term for his readers). The question-mark applied to the word *Shut* implies that he is unaware of what it signifies. Perhaps it is the name of this &quot;perfect soul/*ba*&quot; (and might be a word related to *Shu*?).&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In front of Shu&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; stands a similar ram-headed god, who is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; called...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;as his label [![Holy Ba][2]][2] indicates, &quot;Special *Ba*&quot; or rather, as Budge puts it, &quot;Holy Soul&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;See the column of text directly behind this god, in front of Nut's shins. His name appears at the top of the column, which is actually the end of this phrase (which has been written from bottom to top).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;*(Here's a detail of the relevant portion of the image, for easier reference.)*&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;In between Shu and Special-*Ba* is another piece of text which says &quot;Rā Sets in the Land of Life.&quot; Rā is, however, absent from the image, as Budge notes at the end of his breakdown.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Next to the arm of the goddess, directly behind Perfect-*Ba-Shut*, is a text column which reads &quot;The Sky, the Support of Rā: Nut, the Mother of the *Neteru*&quot; (the *Neteru* being the Gods).&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Some papyri and other documents represent the sun sailing over&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the back of Nut in two boats, one being the boat of the morning sun,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and the other the boat of the evening sun, and elsewhere we see the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; god Shu holding up the boat of the sun, with the solar disk on the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; horizon. On the left, a little above the hips of the goddess, facing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the god of Eternity, is another ram-headed god, who kneels with his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hands raised in adoration of the goddess.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;*This* ram-headed god's name is, according to the three-line block of text directly in front of him, the &quot;*Ba* Which Embraces All Things.&quot; The &quot;God of Eternity,&quot; pictured just in front of Nut's head, is called Ḥeḥ, and, more precisely, he represents the figure of a million (or a plurality of millions of) years [= the literal meaning of his name] rather than eternity.&lt;/sup&gt;    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In 1920, *An Egyptian Hieropglyphic Dictionary*, another book by Budge, was published.&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; I've looked through it for a straight trans*liter*ation, rather than a translation, of the names he provides for the two ram-headed deities in question from *The Greenfield Papyrus*. Nothing I've found comes close to anything like &quot;Perfect *Ba Shut*,&quot; but there are two different names which he says both mean &quot;Holy Soul,&quot; both of which appear on [p. 199 of the dictionary](https://archive.org/stream/Budge.AnEgyptianHieroglyphicDictionary.vol.1#page/n353/mode/2up). The first of them, **Ba-sheps**, he says is &quot;a title of Osiris,&quot; while the second one, **Ba-tcheser**, is, he explains, &quot;a form of Osiris.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Neither of these, however, seems to refer to the &quot;Holy *Ba*&quot; in our scene. The hieroglyphs for *ba* are the only portions of the words which match. Incidentally the (completely theriomorphic) ram standing directly in front of Nut (by her arm, below Ḥeḥ) is labelled ***Ba-shep*** (still in hieroglyphs which fail to correspond to the characters we're looking at). The difference between this and *Ba-shep**s*** seems to give Budge pause about what this word means but his guess is that it might also mean &quot;Holy Soul.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Additionally, on Sheet 86 of the papyrus (the sheet immediately preceding ours), Princess Nesitanebtȧshru appears kneeling before and saluting yet another ram-headed god, this one wielding a sceptre, wearing the *Atef* crown, and named **Ba-ṭesher**. The dissimilarity between this name and *Ba-tcheser* is very subtle but, going by Budge, it makes all the difference, since he translates it as the &quot;Red Ram&quot;, so apparently not the same as the aforementioned &quot;*Holy-Soul* form of Osiris&quot;, unless, i.e. we are to understand &quot;Holy Soul&quot; and &quot;Red Ram&quot; as puns for each other, or as otherwise-associated concepts. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;SIGNIFICATION&#xD;&#xA;=======&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Budge does not supply an explanation for who or what Special-*Ba* and Perfect-*Ba-Shut* are supposed to be beyond &quot;ram-headed gods&quot;, but as it happens, in Ancient Egyptian the word *ba* also means &quot;ram&quot; or &quot;sheep&quot; (see p. 200 of Budge's dictionary), which would explain why there are so many rams and ram-headed men depicted all over the Greenfield Papyrus with names that have to do with the *ba*-soul (and considering also that this is essentially a comic-book illustrating Nesitanebtȧshru's afterlife sojourn).           &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wind was known as *Ba-en-Shu*, the &quot;Soul of Shu&quot; (see the afore-cited p. 200 again). Perhaps Special-*Ba* and Perfect-*Ba-Shut* are projections of Shu. Shmoop, however, in its [short article on this image](https://www.shmoop.com/geb-nut/photo-shu-gets-some-help.html), entitled &quot;Shu Gets Some Help,&quot; has a different explanation for this:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; What happens when Shu gets too tired to hold Nut up? He gets help from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Heh (eternity) spirits, so they hold *him* up!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This interpretation of what these figures represent is perhaps not unreasonable. As mentioned above, Ḥeḥ is the man appearing as the fourth figure from the right in the topmost row of your image. Directly below him, in the middle row, is the ram named Ba-shep. Directly across from him (and facing him), past Nut's back, is the ram-headed man named *Ba*-Which-Embraces-All-Things. Beyond this, however, it is not at all obvious to me how Shu's companions here are connected to Ḥeḥ.        &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similar compositions of these figures occur with some variations in other funerary iconography from the period. On [the coffin of Tanakhtnettahat](https://www.flickr.com/photos/101561334@N08/10450947674/in/photostream/), for instance, Shu is accompanied, instead, by a pair of ram-headed *birds* instead of his more humanoid associates. These ram-headed versions of the birds are, however, always each equipped with a pair of human arms. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - An example of this, from a different piece of artwork, is shown below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Shu, Geb &amp; Nut][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;In her book *Egyptian Iconography on Syro-Palestinian Cylinder Seals of the Middle Bronze Age* (on p. 191), Beatrice Teissier&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; says that in the New Kingdom, which ended just before the dynastic era presently concerning us, &quot;Amun-Re and Re-Atum... were represented as ram-headed birds.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In his 1904 book *The Gods of the Egyptians, or Studies in Egyptian Mythology*, Budge illustrates a reconstruction of such a scene, in which Shu's companions are fully avian birds (on an insert sheet between pp. 96 &amp; 97).&lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Shu, Geb &amp; Nut][5]][5]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*This scene has morning and evening Rā sailing along Nut's legs and arms in the boat(s) described in an earlier quote above from* The Greenfield Papyrus. Shmoop [identifies](https://www.shmoop.com/geb-nut/photo-a-sky-full-gods.html) the two birds here as hawks representing Horus the Elder and Horus the Younger.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - A coffin at the Egypt Centre Museum of Antiquities in Swansea has a third variation with the two ram-headed companions *themselves* attended by a pair of part-bird figures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][6]][6]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Reconstruction of a fairly grungy [original](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-vwUoYnPjLGo/VOcLKvSSGUI/AAAAAAAAAUc/Iqxishv1_RI/s1600/separation1.jpg)*&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In a fourth alternative, Shu's sidekicks are a pair of what look like *ba*-souls, which typically are represented as human-headed birds and, in similarity to the ram-headed birds, they each have a pair of human arms too.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;[![Museo Egizio Torino][7]][7]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*(Notice how Nesitanebtȧshru's* ba *appears in this part-bird form twice in the scene from your Question, in the middle and bottom rows to the right of the image.)*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Fifthly and finally, on the coffin of Nespawershefyt, the two human-headed (and bearded), avian *ba* figures appear together with Shu *in addition to* the two ram-headed men, making for a whole lot of fairly inconclusive evidence regarding whether the ram-headed men or ram-headed birds are supposed to signify the same thing as the human-headed birds whenever each of these pairs appears without any other pair accompanying Shu.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Coffin of Nespawershepi][8]][8] &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*On [another part of this coffin](http://www-img.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/img/ant/ant47/E.1.1822.c_08_200604_adn21_dc2_edit.jpg) Shu is accompanied only by a pair of the human-headed birds.*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;KHNUM?&#xD;&#xA;=======&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is one other interpretation in circulation which appears to be relatively popular. The website GodElectric.org, as well as Rolf Werner Friedrich Gross and Ottar Vendel, all say that the pair of ram-headed men is the god Khnum appearing in duplicate. This is understandable considering that although there are several ram-headed Egyptian gods, the breed of ram appearing either completely theriomorphically or as the head of numerous deities in these Dynasty-XXI artifacts looks most like the Khnum ram. However, if Budge is to be believed, they seem to tend rather towards being hypostases of Asar (Osiris).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moustafa Gadalla&lt;sup&gt;7&lt;/sup&gt; makes these remarks in his book *Egyptian Divinities: The All Who Are The One*:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Khnum represents the embodiment of the creative force of Re ... Khnum&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is depicted in some context as a ram-headed bird. This bird represents&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Ba of Ra [Re]—The All encompassing Ba—The Divine Soul.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Notes**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Budge, E.A.W. 1912. *The Greenfield Papyrus in the British Museum*. The British Museum, London.&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. What Budge really means here is, rather: To the right of the printed *image* away from Shu (i.e. the reader's right), which is actually = Shu's left-hand side.&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. Now to Shu's actual right-hand side, but to the reader's left.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;4. Budge, E.A.W. 1920. *An Egyptian Hieroglyphic Dictionary, With an Index of English Words, King List and Geographical List with Indexes, List of Hieroglyphic Characters, Coptic and Semitic Alphabets, Etc. Volume 1*. John Murray, London.&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;5. Teissier, B. 1996. *Egyptian Iconography on Syro-Palestinian Cylinder Seals of the Middle Bronze Age*. University Press; Göttingen: Vandehoeck &amp; Ruprecht, Fribourg, Switzerland.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;6. Budge, E.A.W. 1904. *The Gods of the Egyptians, or Studies in Egyptian Mythology*. Methuen &amp; Co., London.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;7. Gadalla, M. 2017. *Egyptian Divinities: The All Who Are The One*. Tehuti Research Foundation, Greensboro, NC.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/1iBaN.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/6wnrZ.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/yCMLu.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/RqAf1.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/VPwCA.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/aaeQg.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/2WpJR.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/PEslo.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13233" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3321" RevisionGUID="53587929-a4ff-4438-8ff3-b2e4d134fa97" CreationDate="2018-02-07T09:07:51.053" UserId="4682" Text="I also thought about the question as to why didn't Athena help Medusa? Supposedly Athena was jealous of Medusa which possibly could of clouded her judgement as to whether she should save her or not. I mean it is her temple she could of at least did something. Then again as the goddess of war she possibly could of believed that women could defend themselves, that they we're just as strong as men and wanted Medusa to fight off Poseidon. But that wouldn't make sense since Medusa is a human and Poseidon is a god so there's no fighting him off. Furthermore with Athena afterwards putting a curse on Medusa it kinda seems like she and Poseidon planned for this to happen, which would mean Athena was so envious that she'd go to extreme lengths to get back at Medusa. Athena could of went to her father and told him that Poseidon degraded her temple but instead decided to punish Medusa. It all just makes it seem like the gods just like playing with the humans and Athena could care less about her followers, she only cares about her reputation. Sure Athena was powerless compared to Poseidon but she could seek out her father to help her make him pay and if Zeus refused she could of talked to other gods for assistance, basically all of them fight against Poseidon. I'm pretty sure since she's the goddess of wisdom she would of been able to persuade a few gods to help her. It says that Medusa's parents were gods, if they were Athena could of went to them for aid. This all makes it seem like Athena just  wanted an easy way out, and that would be by punishing medusa.Though trying to punish Poseidon would cause total chaos, you could say that's why she didn't try to ask her father or other gods. But last time I checked she wasn't the goddess of peace but war so that would pretty much mean it's ok to have war but not between gods. In all honesty this just makes Athena seem to be falsely symbolizing wisdom and war. She's supposedly very smart yet couldn't find any ways around this. Maybe Athena didn't want to save Medusa because she disliked her. It was one thing to cast Medusa out of the temple but when setting a curse on Medusa just sent it overboard. Medusa would of already been ashamed and depressed since she was raped and cast from being a priestess but with the curse Medusa couldn't even have a normal life. This just makes Athena look like either a coward or a completely selfish b*tch.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I thought about all this after watching this video:&#xD;&#xA;https://youtu.be/Q9pr2Xxaagw&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13234" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3322" RevisionGUID="c7274c6e-ef84-4d80-ab10-4afd7be96ef9" CreationDate="2018-02-07T09:44:59.123" UserId="4683" Text="[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the significance of the three stars in [Peter Paul Ruben's Saturn painting][1]?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rubens_saturn.jpg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/67AK7.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13235" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3322" RevisionGUID="c7274c6e-ef84-4d80-ab10-4afd7be96ef9" CreationDate="2018-02-07T09:44:59.123" UserId="4683" Text="What is the significance of the three stars in Ruben's Saturn painting?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13236" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3322" RevisionGUID="c7274c6e-ef84-4d80-ab10-4afd7be96ef9" CreationDate="2018-02-07T09:44:59.123" UserId="4683" Text="|greek|symbolism+|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13237" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1349" RevisionGUID="2facdb60-eb73-4b34-a5bb-a4002a07cb37" CreationDate="2018-02-07T09:54:19.230" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|symbolism|hera|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13238" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1781" RevisionGUID="51d82d7e-4371-4a5c-80b8-3586a1d46879" CreationDate="2018-02-07T09:54:26.080" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags; edited tags; edited tags" Text="|symbolism|iconography|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13239" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1855" RevisionGUID="ed814337-fa18-4f58-8804-b33ddf78dd70" CreationDate="2018-02-07T09:54:33.243" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|symbolism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13240" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2677" RevisionGUID="28bb380f-91b5-4f11-92e0-31b7a88ca465" CreationDate="2018-02-07T09:56:20.510" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|interpretation|runes|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13241" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2882" RevisionGUID="bae3bc58-1f4a-4a26-bf42-169d5467df86" CreationDate="2018-02-07T09:56:56.357" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|symbolism|iconography|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13242" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3013" RevisionGUID="b1018790-ee26-4683-98a8-61f26037b19c" CreationDate="2018-02-07T09:57:10.313" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|egyptian|symbolism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13243" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3322" RevisionGUID="a73c37a9-681a-44d7-9002-9a8f5442cdc3" CreationDate="2018-02-07T09:57:35.247" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|symbolism|iconography|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13244" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3322" RevisionGUID="fa5b7d6e-b6c7-43e3-b416-8ceac691fe8f" CreationDate="2018-02-07T10:05:36.050" UserId="57" Comment="added 31 characters in body" Text="[![Peter Paul Ruben's Saturn devouring a Son][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the significance of the three stars in Peter Paul Ruben's *[Saturn devouring a Son][1]* painting?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rubens_saturn.jpg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/67AK7.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13245" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3323" RevisionGUID="437c5a72-cdcd-4396-9b2b-118868153408" CreationDate="2018-02-07T10:10:48.443" UserId="57" Text="I'm afraid that the stars do not have mythological significance. According to the [listing for the painting on the Prado Museum website][2], the stars above the titan are the planet Saturn: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The stars in the firmament above the cruel old man remind us that Saturn is also the name given, back in antiquity, to the sixth planet in the Solar System that is visible to the naked eye. However, this is an odd arrangement: beside the main gleam of light are two smaller stars whose presence is not quite clear. It is now known that Saturn is surrounded by a ring that can only be seen with a telescope. When Galileo Galilei discovered this phenomenon in 1610, he believed that the ring was two satellites positioned on either side. Was perhaps Rubens familiar with this interpretation? Certainly, the painter followed all the advances of his age with extreme interest; however, this hypothesis would have to be examined at length in order to be given serious consideration. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.museodelprado.es/en&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.museodelprado.es/en/the-collection/art-work/saturn-devouring-a-son/d022fed3-6069-4786-b59f-4399a2d74e50" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13246" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3323" RevisionGUID="1c93453a-90bc-431a-a032-51ee78880912" CreationDate="2018-02-07T10:16:29.437" UserId="57" Comment="added 49 characters in body" Text="I'm afraid that the stars do not have mythological significance. According to the [listing for the painting on the Prado Museum website][2], the stars are probably the planet Saturn, whose rings were believed to be satellites at the time: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The stars in the firmament above the cruel old man remind us that Saturn is also the name given, back in antiquity, to the sixth planet in the Solar System that is visible to the naked eye. However, this is an odd arrangement: beside the main gleam of light are two smaller stars whose presence is not quite clear. It is now known that Saturn is surrounded by a ring that can only be seen with a telescope. When Galileo Galilei discovered this phenomenon in 1610, he believed that the ring was two satellites positioned on either side. Was perhaps Rubens familiar with this interpretation? Certainly, the painter followed all the advances of his age with extreme interest; however, this hypothesis would have to be examined at length in order to be given serious consideration. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.museodelprado.es/en&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.museodelprado.es/en/the-collection/art-work/saturn-devouring-a-son/d022fed3-6069-4786-b59f-4399a2d74e50" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13247" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3319" RevisionGUID="f3252a8d-1ffa-48bd-82e9-b3c8d2991c01" CreationDate="2018-02-07T10:22:48.353" UserId="108" Comment="added 48 characters in body" Text="Sir James George Frazer cited this story from the 1873 book *Russian Folk-Tales* by [William Ralston Shedden-Ralston](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Ralston_Shedden-Ralston). Ralston, in turn, translated it from Ivan Khudyakov's 1861 collection *Russian Fairy Tales*, where it was numbered 109. Clearly the story is Russian in origin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ralston did *not* give the story a title, which probably indicates that neither did Khudyakov (but I can't read Russian, so someone else would have to confirm this). Traditional folk tales rarely come with names, or rather, only one widely accepted name. Hence many fairy tale collections use numbering instead. So we could reasonably say, **there isn't a title.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the other hand, in his [*The Golden Bouch*](https://books.google.com/books?id=gW3lHH32tvQC&amp;pg=PA110&amp;dq=&quot;death+in+the+blue+rose-tree&quot;), Frazier gave the paragrap containing the story the subtitle, **&quot;Death in the blue-rose tree&quot;**. You could treat this as a title - it's as close to a name as there is for this story, in English at least." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13248" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3323" RevisionGUID="ca26c446-ffa5-4d60-829f-fbbff517555f" CreationDate="2018-02-07T10:25:11.750" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 5 characters in body" Text="I'm afraid the stars do not have mythological significance. According to the [listing for the painting on the Prado Museum website][2], the stars are probably the planet Saturn, whose rings were believed to be satellites at the time: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The stars in the firmament above the cruel old man remind us that Saturn is also the name given, back in antiquity, to the sixth planet in the Solar System that is visible to the naked eye. However, this is an odd arrangement: beside the main gleam of light are two smaller stars whose presence is not quite clear. It is now known that Saturn is surrounded by a ring that can only be seen with a telescope. When Galileo Galilei discovered this phenomenon in 1610, he believed that the ring was two satellites positioned on either side. Was perhaps Rubens familiar with this interpretation? Certainly, the painter followed all the advances of his age with extreme interest; however, this hypothesis would have to be examined at length in order to be given serious consideration. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.museodelprado.es/en&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.museodelprado.es/en/the-collection/art-work/saturn-devouring-a-son/d022fed3-6069-4786-b59f-4399a2d74e50" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13253" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="3307" RevisionGUID="c6093718-b6d8-492b-8c9a-d5d099f6c615" CreationDate="2018-02-07T14:02:07.470" UserId="57" Comment="58" />
  <row Id="13254" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="2822" RevisionGUID="b6acc998-87c4-4816-a9d3-5d5acdac50d2" CreationDate="2018-02-07T14:04:43.220" UserId="57" Comment="59" />
  <row Id="13255" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3324" RevisionGUID="f7ebd471-6618-4b7e-a8c2-51d4339d3045" CreationDate="2018-02-07T19:18:52.613" UserId="4271" Text="Why would Hades allow Heracles to rescue Theseus, after he(Theseus) and Pirithous came down to kidnap Persephone?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13256" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3324" RevisionGUID="f7ebd471-6618-4b7e-a8c2-51d4339d3045" CreationDate="2018-02-07T19:18:52.613" UserId="4271" Text="Why did Hades let Heracles rescue Theseus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13257" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3324" RevisionGUID="f7ebd471-6618-4b7e-a8c2-51d4339d3045" CreationDate="2018-02-07T19:18:52.613" UserId="4271" Text="|underworld|hades|hercules|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13258" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3325" RevisionGUID="7cfbc744-b9cb-4a2d-ab17-9db326a964ab" CreationDate="2018-02-07T22:17:51.790" UserId="57" Text="According to Diodorus Siculus, it was Herakles favour of Theseus that persuaded Hades to release him:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Peirithoos now decided to seek the hand of Persephone in marriage, and when he asked Theseus to make the journey with him Theseus at first endeavoured to dissuade him and to turn him away from such a deed as being impious; but since Peirithoos firmly insisted upon it Theseus was bound by the oaths to join with him in the deed. And when they had at last made their way below to the regions of Haides, it came to pass that because of the impiety of their act they were both put in chains, and although Theseus was later let go by reason of the favour with which Herakles regarded him, Peirithoos because of the impiety remained in Haides, enduring everlasting punishment; but some writers of myths say that both of them never returned.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Diodorus Siculus, Library of History 4.63.4 (trans. Oldfather)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pseudo-Apollodorus tells more or less the same story, but doesn't attempt to explain why Theseus is allowed to leave:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As he approached the gates of Haides' realm, he came across Theseus along with Peirithoos (Pirithous), who had courted Persephone with matrimonial intentions and for this reason was held fast as was Theseus. When they saw Herakles they stretched forth their hands as if to rise up with the help of his strength. He did in fact pull Theseus up by the hand, but when he wanted to raise Peirithoos, the earth shook and he let go.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 2. 124 (trans. Aldrich)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A third version, Plutarch's, diverges significantly from the earlier ones by substituting Hades with the legendary Molossian [Aidoneus][1]. However, it agrees with Diodorus in that Herakles favour is the reason Theseus is released: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Theseus] to return the service of Peirithoos, journeyed with him to Epiros, in quest of the daughter of Aidoneus the king of the Molossians. This man called his wife Phersephone, his daughter Kora, and his dog Kerberos, with which beast he ordered that all suitors of his daughter should fight, promising her to him that should overcome it. However, when he learned that Peirithoos and his friend were come not to woo, but to steal away his daughter, he seized them both. Peirithoos he put out of the way at once by means of the dog, but Theseus he kept in close confinement ...   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now while Herakles was the guest of Aidoneus the Molossian, the king incidentally spoke of the adventure of Theseus and Peirithoos, telling what they had come there to do, and what they had suffered when they were found out. Herakles was greatly distressed by the inglorious death of the one, and by the impending death of the other. As for Peirithoos, he thought it useless to complain, but he begged for the release of Theseus, and demanded that this favour be granted him. Aidoneus yielded to his prayers, Theseus was set free, and returned to Athens, where his friends were not yet altogether overwhelmed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Plutarch, Life of Theseus 31.2 &amp; 35. 1 (trans. Perrin)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think it's safe to say Theseus was lucky to have friends in high places. Further, I think it's important to remember that Pirithous was the one that lusted after Persephone, and that - at least according to Diodorus - Theseus tried to change his mind. The intervention of Herakles is certainly important, but I don't think Hades would have been as easily convinced if it was Theseus who had dared claim his wife.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All that said, it may be worth noting that there's a version of the story - also in Diodorus - where Herakles is allowed to save Pirithous as well: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Herakles then, according to the myths which have come down to us, descended into the realm of Haides, and being welcomed like a brother by Persephone brought Theseus and Peirithoos back to the upper world after freeing them from their bonds. This he accomplished by the favour of Persephone, and receiving the dog Kerberos in chains he carried him away to the amazement of all and exhibited him to men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Diodorus Siculus, Library of History 4.26.1  (trans. Oldfather)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Oh, well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aidoneus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13259" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3324" RevisionGUID="0db9cade-0469-4494-8481-d6a25765aba8" CreationDate="2018-02-07T22:19:55.957" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 10 characters in body; edited tags" Text="Why would Hades allow Heracles to rescue Theseus after he and Pirithous came down to kidnap Persephone?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13260" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3324" RevisionGUID="0db9cade-0469-4494-8481-d6a25765aba8" CreationDate="2018-02-07T22:19:55.957" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 10 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|underworld|hades|theseus|hercules|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13264" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3325" RevisionGUID="3bb428e0-4120-42d9-835e-4a3faca8c5b4" CreationDate="2018-02-07T22:31:44.323" UserId="57" Comment="added 5 characters in body" Text="According to Diodorus Siculus, it was Herakles favour of Theseus that persuaded Hades to release him:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Peirithoos now decided to seek the hand of Persephone in marriage, and when he asked Theseus to make the journey with him Theseus at first endeavoured to dissuade him and to turn him away from such a deed as being impious; but since Peirithoos firmly insisted upon it Theseus was bound by the oaths to join with him in the deed. And when they had at last made their way below to the regions of Haides, it came to pass that because of the impiety of their act they were both put in chains, and although Theseus was later let go by reason of the favour with which Herakles regarded him, Peirithoos because of the impiety remained in Haides, enduring everlasting punishment; but some writers of myths say that both of them never returned.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Diodorus Siculus, Library of History 4.63.4 (trans. Oldfather)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pseudo-Apollodorus tells more or less the same story, but doesn't attempt to explain why Theseus is allowed to leave:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As he approached the gates of Haides' realm, he came across Theseus along with Peirithoos (Pirithous), who had courted Persephone with matrimonial intentions and for this reason was held fast as was Theseus. When they saw Herakles they stretched forth their hands as if to rise up with the help of his strength. He did in fact pull Theseus up by the hand, but when he wanted to raise Peirithoos, the earth shook and he let go.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 2. 124 (trans. Aldrich)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A third version, Plutarch's, diverges significantly from the earlier ones by substituting Hades with the legendary Molossian [Aidoneus][1]. However, it agrees with Diodorus in that Herakles favour is the reason Theseus is released: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Theseus] to return the service of Peirithoos, journeyed with him to Epiros, in quest of the daughter of Aidoneus the king of the Molossians. This man called his wife Phersephone, his daughter Kora, and his dog Kerberos, with which beast he ordered that all suitors of his daughter should fight, promising her to him that should overcome it. However, when he learned that Peirithoos and his friend were come not to woo, but to steal away his daughter, he seized them both. Peirithoos he put out of the way at once by means of the dog, but Theseus he kept in close confinement  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now while Herakles was the guest of Aidoneus the Molossian, the king incidentally spoke of the adventure of Theseus and Peirithoos, telling what they had come there to do, and what they had suffered when they were found out. Herakles was greatly distressed by the inglorious death of the one, and by the impending death of the other. As for Peirithoos, he thought it useless to complain, but he begged for the release of Theseus, and demanded that this favour be granted him. Aidoneus yielded to his prayers, Theseus was set free, and returned to Athens, where his friends were not yet altogether overwhelmed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Plutarch, Life of Theseus 31.2 &amp; 35. 1 (trans. Perrin)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think it's safe to say Theseus was lucky to have friends in high places. Further, I think it's important to remember that Pirithous was the one that lusted after Persephone, and that - at least according to Diodorus - Theseus tried to change his mind. The intervention of Herakles is certainly important, but I don't think Hades would have been as easily convinced if it was Theseus who had dared claim his wife.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All that said, it may be worth noting that there's a version of the story - also in Diodorus - where Herakles is allowed to save Pirithous as well: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Herakles then, according to the myths which have come down to us, descended into the realm of Haides, and being welcomed like a brother by Persephone brought Theseus and Peirithoos back to the upper world after freeing them from their bonds. This he accomplished by the favour of Persephone, and receiving the dog Kerberos in chains he carried him away to the amazement of all and exhibited him to men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Diodorus Siculus, Library of History 4.26.1  (trans. Oldfather)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Oh, well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aidoneus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13265" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3327" RevisionGUID="c98a24df-b4dd-42f7-921a-c98226708be1" CreationDate="2018-02-07T23:52:26.297" UserId="3302" Text="This was already left in a comment but Buddhism has the belief that nothing lasts forever and therefore basically doesn't believe an at least an eternal after life(which is what I believe you were implying).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A passage in the Nirvana Sutra called the “Verse on Impermanence”&#xD;&#xA;tells the story of Sessen Doji, who, during his Buddhist practice, was&#xD;&#xA;willing to lose his life in order to hear the teaching he sought:&#xD;&#xA;All is changeable, nothing is constant. This is the law of birth and&#xD;&#xA;death. Extinguishing the cycle of birth and death, one enters the joy&#xD;&#xA;of nirvana. (M.W., Glossary)&#xD;&#xA;Two principles from the “Four Emblematic Theorems” are&#xD;&#xA;demonstrated in this passage, i.e., “everything changes, nothing lasts&#xD;&#xA;forever”, and “nirvana is tranquillity”. [link][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.nst.org/articles/basics-of-study/the-supremacy-of-buddhism-the-four-emblematic-theorems/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13266" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3327" RevisionGUID="87ebe270-fa0d-4da1-9d20-b4db8331b506" CreationDate="2018-02-08T04:56:29.953" UserId="3302" Comment="deleted 39 characters in body" Text="Buddhism has the belief that nothing lasts forever and therefore basically doesn't believe at least in an eternal after life(which is what I believe you were implying).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A passage in the Nirvana Sutra called the “Verse on Impermanence”&#xD;&#xA;tells the story of Sessen Doji, who, during his Buddhist practice, was&#xD;&#xA;willing to lose his life in order to hear the teaching he sought:&#xD;&#xA;All is changeable, nothing is constant. This is the law of birth and&#xD;&#xA;death. Extinguishing the cycle of birth and death, one enters the joy&#xD;&#xA;of nirvana. (M.W., Glossary)&#xD;&#xA;Two principles from the “Four Emblematic Theorems” are&#xD;&#xA;demonstrated in this passage, i.e., “everything changes, nothing lasts&#xD;&#xA;forever”, and “nirvana is tranquillity”. [link][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.nst.org/articles/basics-of-study/the-supremacy-of-buddhism-the-four-emblematic-theorems/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13267" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3328" RevisionGUID="0a0d5af2-a211-4f78-b5f4-ca4010b7d2b0" CreationDate="2018-02-08T09:25:25.903" UserId="4105" Text="The [first time Hector meets Achilles on the battlefield][1], in Book IX of the Iliad, he is prudent enough to avoid dueling the Myrmidon superhero. However, in Book XXII Hector decides to face Achilles in single combat, a decision that costs him his life. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why does Hector accept Achilles' challenge?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/3091/could-achilles-have-killed-hector-at-a-later-time" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13268" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3328" RevisionGUID="0a0d5af2-a211-4f78-b5f4-ca4010b7d2b0" CreationDate="2018-02-08T09:25:25.903" UserId="4105" Text="Why does Hector accept Achilles' challenge?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13269" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3328" RevisionGUID="0a0d5af2-a211-4f78-b5f4-ca4010b7d2b0" CreationDate="2018-02-08T09:25:25.903" UserId="4105" Text="|greek|iliad|achilles|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13272" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3321" RevisionGUID="e4005040-d351-48da-a208-e2ba55b9a6aa" CreationDate="2018-02-08T11:45:56.023" UserId="57" Comment="improved grammar, fixed spelling" Text="I also thought about the question as to why didn't Athena help Medusa? Supposedly Athena was jealous of Medusa which possibly could of clouded her judgement as to whether she should save her or not. I mean it is her temple she could of at least did something. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then again as the goddess of war, she possibly could have believed that women could defend themselves, that they were just as strong as men and wanted Medusa to fight off Poseidon. But that wouldn't make sense since Medusa is a human and Poseidon is a god so there's no fighting him off. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Furthermore, with Athena afterwards putting a curse on Medusa it kinda seems like she and Poseidon planned for this to happen, which would mean Athena was so envious that she'd go to extreme lengths to get back at Medusa. Athena could of went to her father and told him that Poseidon degraded her temple but instead decided to punish Medusa. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It all just makes it seem like the gods just like playing with the humans and Athena could care less about her followers, she only cares about her reputation. Sure Athena was powerless compared to Poseidon but she could seek out her father to help her make him pay and if Zeus refused she could have talked to other gods for assistance, basically, all of them fight against Poseidon. I'm pretty sure since she's the goddess of wisdom she would have been able to persuade a few gods to help her. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It says that Medusa's parents were gods if they were Athena could of went to them for aid. This all makes it seem like Athena just wanted an easy way out, and that would be by punishing medusa. Though trying to punish Poseidon would cause total chaos, you could say that's why she didn't try to ask her father or other gods. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But last time I checked she wasn't the goddess of peace but war so that would pretty much mean it's ok to have a war but not between gods. In all honesty, this just makes Athena seem to be falsely symbolizing wisdom and war. She's supposedly very smart yet couldn't find any ways around this. Maybe Athena didn't want to save Medusa because she disliked her. It was one thing to cast Medusa out of the temple but when setting a curse on Medusa just sent it overboard. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Medusa would have already been ashamed and depressed since she was raped and cast from being a priestess but with the curse, Medusa couldn't even have a normal life. This just makes Athena look like either a coward or completely selfish.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I thought about all this after watching this video: [The Story Of Medusa - Greek Mythology Explained][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://youtu.be/Q9pr2Xxaagw" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13273" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="1248" RevisionGUID="c1a9b09c-06a7-4859-a353-b1c8ef4aec9c" CreationDate="2018-02-08T11:53:06.803" UserId="57" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;yannis&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="13274" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3320" RevisionGUID="f819e68a-3b70-4fce-b0cd-e6b50e53b05a" CreationDate="2018-02-08T12:10:31.713" UserId="4105" Comment="removed meta comments." Text="What I am looking for is not a collection of stories and myths per se, but something more general like an analysis/dissection or meta discussion of the myth of Odin and Norse mythology in general. Something like Campbell's &quot;Hero with a thousand faces&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odin fascinates me by the scale on which he was revered (the guy has over 100 names!) and his character (combining the wisdom/wanderer god and the warrior/leader god aspects). If any of you could provide me with some worthwhile material on this I would be truly grateful!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13275" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3320" RevisionGUID="f819e68a-3b70-4fce-b0cd-e6b50e53b05a" CreationDate="2018-02-08T12:10:31.713" UserId="4105" Comment="removed meta comments." Text="Books analysing Norse mythology (specifically Odin)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13276" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3320" RevisionGUID="f819e68a-3b70-4fce-b0cd-e6b50e53b05a" CreationDate="2018-02-08T12:10:31.713" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 666, 111 edit id of 524" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13277" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1352" RevisionGUID="66d9dc2a-d8f6-4d15-91b0-f90f839f1e37" CreationDate="2018-02-08T12:11:22.023" UserId="4105" Comment="formatting" Text="The problem is that you can't look at a God as an equivalent of a person with a distinct and very limited identity. The gods we more fluid in how they were represented and worshipped and during the time in which they were worshipped. When simply enumerating that Hera's sacred birds are a Cuckoo, Peacock, etc., you lose that people living in one community may have had a lot of Peacocks but had never seen a Cuckoo before, so they naturally revered the Peacock instead. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Priest: And Hera's sacred bird is the Cuckoo  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Worshiper: Ohh. What's a &quot;Cuckoo&quot;?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Priest: Uhm, [*looks around frantically*] ... that bird over there!  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Worshiper: ...Looks kind of like a Peacock to me.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Priest: Well, it would. That is why I am a priest. Now kneel before the goddess and pray or I will give you such a pinch!!  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13278" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1352" RevisionGUID="66d9dc2a-d8f6-4d15-91b0-f90f839f1e37" CreationDate="2018-02-08T12:11:22.023" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 666, 111 edit id of 525" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13279" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3329" RevisionGUID="770f5515-2f12-4e47-b0b2-46b821636b81" CreationDate="2018-02-08T14:24:49.617" UserId="2762" Text="**Pride and shame**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is put best in book 12, 90-130:&#xD;&#xA;http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad22.php#anchor_Toc239246419&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which shows his own thinking on the issue: [bolding mine]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But his [Hector's]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; proud thoughts were troubled: ‘Alas, if I retreat through the gate, to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the safety of the wall, **Polydamas will not be slow to reproach me**,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; since he advised me to withdraw our forces to the city, on that fatal&#xD;&#xA;&gt; night when Achilles re-appeared. I refused, though it may have been&#xD;&#xA;&gt; better! Now, in my folly, having brought us to the brink of ruin, **I’d&#xD;&#xA;&gt; be ashamed to hear some insignificant Trojan, or his long-robed wife,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; say: ‘Hector has brought ruin on the army, trusting too much in his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; own right arm.’ If that’s what they’ll say, then I’d be better by far&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to meet Achilles face to face and kill him before returning to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; city, or die gloriously beneath its walls.** Of course, I could ditch&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the bossed shield and heavy helmet, lean my spear on the wall, and go&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and promise peerless Achilles to return Helen and her treasure to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Atreidae, all that Paris brought in the hollow ships to Troy, to begin&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this strife. I could say too that we’ll then divide all the remaining&#xD;&#xA;&gt; treasure in the city, and then induce the Elders to state on oath that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they’ll conceal no part of that treasure, but grant half of all the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lovely city holds. But what’s the point of such thoughts? **I’ll not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; approach him like a suppliant only to have him show neither mercy nor&#xD;&#xA;&gt; respect, but kill me out of hand, stripped of my armour and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; defenceless as a woman.** This is no lover’s tryst of lad and lass, by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; oak or rock! Lad and lass, indeed! Better to meet in bloody combat,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; now, and see to whom Zeus grants the glory!&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13280" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="3307" RevisionGUID="7f131f84-bfa0-4682-ba88-b81d74502162" CreationDate="2018-02-08T14:44:41.177" UserId="57" Comment="58" />
  <row Id="13281" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3330" RevisionGUID="cfaece0d-bd18-4a3d-b30b-8498d4b1ef61" CreationDate="2018-02-08T21:23:15.257" UserId="4657" Text="I’ve read he’s a god of grains and a god of fire but i’m not exactly sure which is from genuine slavic myths. Much of the information I found are from new age religion sites....![enter image description here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/DU1qc.jpg)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13282" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3330" RevisionGUID="cfaece0d-bd18-4a3d-b30b-8498d4b1ef61" CreationDate="2018-02-08T21:23:15.257" UserId="4657" Text="What type of god is semargl?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13283" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3330" RevisionGUID="cfaece0d-bd18-4a3d-b30b-8498d4b1ef61" CreationDate="2018-02-08T21:23:15.257" UserId="4657" Text="|slavic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13284" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3331" RevisionGUID="f77cd526-428d-4a43-82d4-acd37fc04909" CreationDate="2018-02-09T08:37:40.813" UserId="57" Text="I'm afraid there isn't a lot we know about Simargl. What we do know is that he was part of [Vladimir's][2] pantheon, as mentioned in the *[Russian Primary Chronicle][1]*: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Vladimir then began to reign alone in Kiev, and he set up idols on&#xD;&#xA;the hills outside the castle with the hall: one of Perun, made of wood&#xD;&#xA;with a head of silver and a mustache of gold, and others of Khors,&#xD;&#xA;Dazh'bog, Stribog, Simar'gl, and Mokosh'. The people sacrificed to&#xD;&#xA;them, calling them gods, and brought their sons and their daughters&#xD;&#xA;to sacrifice them to these devils. They desecrated the earth with their&#xD;&#xA;offerings, and the land of Rus' and this hill were defiled with blood. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Russian Primary Chronicle, Laurentian Text, Translated and edited by Samuel Hazzard Cross and Olgerd P. Sherbowitz-Wetzor&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's also this brief comment from the translators in the notes to the introduction: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Simar'gl seems to be a copyist's combination of the two deities, Sim, a household spirit, and Rogl, a spirit of the harvest. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia gives a little bit more information, but unfortunately, the article does not cite any sources: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Simargl or Semargl is a deity or mythical creature in East Slavic mythology, depicted as a winged lion or dog. The Zoryas, solar goddesses who are servants or daughters of the deity Dazhbog, keep Simargl chained to the star Polaris in the constellation Ursa Minor, to prevent him from breaking free and destroying the constellation, and causing the world to end. Simargl is also the father of Skif and the founder of Cythia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; An idol of Semargl was present in the pantheon of Great Prince Vladimir I of Kiev.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It may be the equivalent of Simurgh in Persian mythology, which is also represented as a griffin with a dog body.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  &lt;sub&gt;Source: Simargl. (2017, December 4). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 08:23, February 9, 2018, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Simargl&amp;oldid=813566490&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_the_Great" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13285" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3330" RevisionGUID="27545e16-a403-4b80-a551-9f6bc1d44dc4" CreationDate="2018-02-09T08:39:29.697" UserId="57" Comment="added 19 characters in body; edited title" Text="I’ve read he’s a god of grains and a god of fire but I’m not exactly sure which is from genuine Slavic myths. Much of the information I found is from new age religion sites.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/DU1qc.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13286" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3330" RevisionGUID="27545e16-a403-4b80-a551-9f6bc1d44dc4" CreationDate="2018-02-09T08:39:29.697" UserId="57" Comment="added 19 characters in body; edited title" Text="What type of god is Semargl?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13290" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3332" RevisionGUID="ea16e2de-d664-44f5-a6a5-cb8137b77b06" CreationDate="2018-02-10T02:39:25.707" UserId="4694" Text="I found this rune/symbol on [Max Neef's book &quot;Human scale development&quot;][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the meaning?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![rune][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here on the stone it was found&#xD;&#xA;[![Runestone][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.wtf.tw/ref/max-neef.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/jyuYU.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Wcbaf.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13291" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3332" RevisionGUID="ea16e2de-d664-44f5-a6a5-cb8137b77b06" CreationDate="2018-02-10T02:39:25.707" UserId="4694" Text="what is the meaning of this rune/symbol" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13292" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3332" RevisionGUID="ea16e2de-d664-44f5-a6a5-cb8137b77b06" CreationDate="2018-02-10T02:39:25.707" UserId="4694" Text="|symbolism|runes|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13293" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3333" RevisionGUID="2d38a024-363b-4dc9-a56b-320495a3b8a6" CreationDate="2018-02-10T08:41:49.327" UserId="666" Text="The symbol is a form of a the [triquetra][1], a sort of loop with three &quot;leaves&quot;. It's close in form to the [triskelion][2], which is a sort of spiral with three symmetrical heads.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Those are just general names though. In norse paganism, you can sometimes see a relative to them known as the &quot;[valknut][3]&quot;, consisting of three interlocking triangles (the triquetra is one continous loop, the triskelion has no interlocking). These likely have some sort of connection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, the &quot;valknut&quot; is mostly known from depictions - even the name is a modern invention. Since it is not named in the primary sources, all attempts to connect it with any symbolism (particularly Odin) is little more than guessing, based on context. The name &quot;valknut&quot; is an outcome of this: &quot;slain warriors-knot&quot; certainly suggests Odin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is however, actually a mention of such a symbol in a primary source, unfortunately without saying what it is supposed to stand for. In chapter 17 of *Skáldskaparmál* in his *Edda*, Snorri describes exactly this kind of symbol. He is in the middle of a build up of the fight between Thor and the jötunn [Hrungnir][4], when he says that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hrungnir had a heart which is notorious, of hard stone and spiked with three corners, after which the carving was fashioned, which men call Hrungnir's Heart.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is somewhat odd that people would use a jötunn's heart as a symbol, evidently a mostly positive one. Perhaps it is one more of the glimmers that sometimes show up and gives a more positive image of the jötunn than the ones we mostly get of them as the adversaries of the Gods?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(The stone depicted above is one of [four from Funbo][5], which was moved and placed near the Cathedral of Uppsala. The text is nothing remarkable, but the carving, made by the Runemaster Fot, is a good example of the Urnes style).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triquetra&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triskelion&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valknut&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrungnir&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funbo_Runestones" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13294" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3332" RevisionGUID="55839ebb-4fcd-4073-9478-01ac276f7cd8" CreationDate="2018-02-10T12:01:11.257" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved  spelling." Text="What is the meaning of this rune/symbol?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13295" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3332" RevisionGUID="55839ebb-4fcd-4073-9478-01ac276f7cd8" CreationDate="2018-02-10T12:01:11.257" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved  spelling." Text="I found this rune/symbol on [Max Neef's book &quot;Human scale development&quot;][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the meaning?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![rune][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here on the stone it was found:&#xD;&#xA;[![Runestone][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.wtf.tw/ref/max-neef.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/jyuYU.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Wcbaf.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13296" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3334" RevisionGUID="6a485087-45b0-45c0-89cc-7f59b6a931fe" CreationDate="2018-02-10T12:16:43.380" UserId="4695" Text="Maruti is the name of Hanuman and not of his mother.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the line &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hey dukh bhanjan Maruti nandan Sunlo meri pukar..&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Maruti nandan means child Maruti (like you would call some one child 'Name', young 'Name', adult 'Name' or old 'Name' replacing Name with anyone's name in this case Maruti) and not child of Maruti.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13297" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3335" RevisionGUID="03faa198-eddd-45fe-a3ae-15bac135f90f" CreationDate="2018-02-10T14:30:33.743" UserId="4696" Text="What is the definition of mythology? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When does a religion become mythology? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13298" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3335" RevisionGUID="03faa198-eddd-45fe-a3ae-15bac135f90f" CreationDate="2018-02-10T14:30:33.743" UserId="4696" Text="When does a religion become mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13299" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3335" RevisionGUID="03faa198-eddd-45fe-a3ae-15bac135f90f" CreationDate="2018-02-10T14:30:33.743" UserId="4696" Text="|terminology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13300" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3336" RevisionGUID="7dcfe61f-a858-4007-a751-7e2447d87c0c" CreationDate="2018-02-10T15:15:07.067" UserId="4696" Text="What is the difference between folklore and mythology? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13301" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3336" RevisionGUID="7dcfe61f-a858-4007-a751-7e2447d87c0c" CreationDate="2018-02-10T15:15:07.067" UserId="4696" Text="How is folklore different from mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13302" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3336" RevisionGUID="7dcfe61f-a858-4007-a751-7e2447d87c0c" CreationDate="2018-02-10T15:15:07.067" UserId="4696" Text="|terminology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13303" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3337" RevisionGUID="f92b5a21-4306-4f0e-b710-d2744d634822" CreationDate="2018-02-10T15:50:17.040" UserId="4697" Text="What is the meaning of the term mytheme? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When did the term first come into use, and what are some examples of mythemes?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13304" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3337" RevisionGUID="f92b5a21-4306-4f0e-b710-d2744d634822" CreationDate="2018-02-10T15:50:17.040" UserId="4697" Text="What does mytheme mean?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13305" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3337" RevisionGUID="f92b5a21-4306-4f0e-b710-d2744d634822" CreationDate="2018-02-10T15:50:17.040" UserId="4697" Text="|folkloristics|terminology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13306" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3338" RevisionGUID="3c406227-f86d-4990-8c2a-2f1ec98e3d46" CreationDate="2018-02-11T02:21:28.023" UserId="4698" Text="In the myth of Sisyphus, he pushes a boulder up a hill for all eternity because it keeps falling back down. My question is, why doesn't Sisyphus ever break the conditioning and leave?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13307" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3338" RevisionGUID="3c406227-f86d-4990-8c2a-2f1ec98e3d46" CreationDate="2018-02-11T02:21:28.023" UserId="4698" Text="Why doesn't Sisyphus try to escape?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13308" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3338" RevisionGUID="3c406227-f86d-4990-8c2a-2f1ec98e3d46" CreationDate="2018-02-11T02:21:28.023" UserId="4698" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13314" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3339" RevisionGUID="acf4e770-33bf-460c-b7de-022bef2442f2" CreationDate="2018-02-11T13:00:28.403" UserId="4105" Text="The 2017 horror film [The Ritual][1] features a creature one of the characters calls a jötunn (and a bastard son of Loki). I have always imagined the jötnar as anthropomorphic giants, however the unique design of the film's creature made me wonder about the shapes and sizes of jötnar in Norse lore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I realize all jötnar don't necessarily look the same, but do they at least share some defining characteristics? Is it, for example, possible to identify a creature in a tale as jötunn from its description alone?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_ritual_2017/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13315" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3339" RevisionGUID="acf4e770-33bf-460c-b7de-022bef2442f2" CreationDate="2018-02-11T13:00:28.403" UserId="4105" Text="How many different shapes and sizes do jötnar come in?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13316" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3339" RevisionGUID="acf4e770-33bf-460c-b7de-022bef2442f2" CreationDate="2018-02-11T13:00:28.403" UserId="4105" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13320" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3342" RevisionGUID="b2847b96-b372-4302-9772-4c4b5ca9970f" CreationDate="2018-02-12T08:37:54.273" UserId="2774" Text="Those are quite proximate terms: Mythology, folktales, legends, fairytales.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Generally this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Mythology is a sacred text about the creation of the world, usually by a god/God, the creation or not of subsequent generation of gods, and the creation of the human race (insert any random accident here). Common examples are: The Holy Bible, Hesiod's Theogony, The Babylonian creation myth (enuma elish), the Rig Veda, etc.&#xD;&#xA; - Folktales are collection of tales from common people, so you will usually find animals, farmers, woodcutters, common people confronted to common problems. I lost my axe, let's pray Thor. We are lost in a forest how to find the way out. A princess is asleep an nothing can awaken her. I am only a common servant bullied by other people. You can find there elements of magic, sometimes gods, but not always. Folktales also comes in LOTS of versions. Even if common ones are known by a specific one as Perrault's or Grimm's. Folklore also tend to encompass lots of things. Especially the dreaded 'oral tradition'.&#xD;&#xA; - Legends: Generally speaking start with an historical fact transformed heavily. King Arthur is the easiest example in mind. There is a king Arthur in history but he has nothing to do with the legendary Arthur. Richard Lionheart is another fair example. Both a totally historical figure and also a kind of legendary paladin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the major difference is mythology even if bearing incredible trace of magic is supposed to be true. This is how the world came to be, how the god(s) created the world and the human beings, and thus how the human beings are placing themselves (slaves, servants, sons, etc.) On the contrary folktales are supposed and expected to be that: tales. No one think seriously that a guy named Jack got a magical bean. Or a witch is leaving in a gingerbread house.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;There is a fine line here between myths, legends, folktales. Dracula gives you good example of someone who can be easily identified as common folk knowledge when it is at first a precise character in a precise novel. He is part of the modern folklore even if the image of him in modern folklore is far appart from Dracula in the novel. Which also make Vlad, his human model, a fair legend.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In general, mythology is considered a subset of folklore. Most universities will put mythology in their folklore courses. And considering the Antique, the line can be very very thin. The Babylonian Gilgamesh is an historical character, a true legend, a national hero, a character in a story, and a god, all at the same time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13322" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3343" RevisionGUID="4569f1e5-0181-4061-98dd-ffc99ad9bf8f" CreationDate="2018-02-12T16:27:12.287" UserId="4271" Text="Before the Titan Kronos and his sister/wife Rhea became rulers of the heavens, Ophion and Eurynome were so. But, how did that occur when Ouranos/Uranus was king? He was only dethroned when Kronos castrated him and replaced him." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13323" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3343" RevisionGUID="4569f1e5-0181-4061-98dd-ffc99ad9bf8f" CreationDate="2018-02-12T16:27:12.287" UserId="4271" Text="How were children of Oceanus king and queen?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13324" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3343" RevisionGUID="4569f1e5-0181-4061-98dd-ffc99ad9bf8f" CreationDate="2018-02-12T16:27:12.287" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|titans|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13325" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3344" RevisionGUID="c11f67ec-b51a-4ef9-b05d-d9739f03dad1" CreationDate="2018-02-12T16:46:38.113" UserId="4105" Text="The story of Ophion being the first ruler of heaven is part of the Orphic tradition. [Orphism][1] stories may not always be 100% compatible with the more well known stories of Hesiod's theogony. In any case, according to Apollonius of Rhodes the transition from Ophion and Eurynome to Cronus and Rhea happened &quot;through strength of arm&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He sang how the earth, the heaven and the sea, once mingled together in one form, after deadly strife were separated each from other; and how the stars and the moon and the paths of the sun ever keep their fixed place in the sky; and how the mountains rose, and how the resounding rivers with their nymphs came into being and all creeping things. And he sang how first of all Ophion and Eurynome, daughter of Ocean, held the sway of snowy Olympus, and how through strength of arm one yielded his prerogative to Cronos and the other to Rhea, and how they fell into the waves of Ocean; but the other two meanwhile ruled over the blessed Titan-gods, while Zeus, still a child and with the thoughts of a child, dwelt in the Dictaean cave; and the earthborn Cyclopes had not yet armed him with the bolt, with thunder and lightning; for these things give renown to Zeus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Argonautica. Book I. By Apollonius. Translated by R. C. Seaton][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orphism_(religion)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://classics.mit.edu/Apollonius/argon.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13326" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3345" RevisionGUID="c2dc7b4e-f774-42ca-8f9a-dbd666e791d7" CreationDate="2018-02-12T18:06:32.197" UserId="4271" Text="I have asked earlier if the Trojans called the gods by their Greek names(Athena, Demeter...) or their Roman names(Minerva, Ceres...). I was told they had their own language and the two sides had trouble communicating, but it was not impossible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After Troy is destroyed, Aeneas escapes in the carnage and, somewhere down the line, finds himself in Carthage, ruled by Queen Dido. I have not heard of them having trouble communicating. Does this suggest that (1)they spoke the same language(Trojan language), (2)the Trojans(or at least Aeneas) knew the Carthage language, (3)the people of Carthage(or at least Queen Dido) knew the Trojan language, or (4)the two countries/cities were trading partners and had a handle on the other language?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13327" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3345" RevisionGUID="c2dc7b4e-f774-42ca-8f9a-dbd666e791d7" CreationDate="2018-02-12T18:06:32.197" UserId="4271" Text="If the Trojans had a different language then the Acheans, does this mean they spoke the same as Queen Dido?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13328" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3345" RevisionGUID="c2dc7b4e-f774-42ca-8f9a-dbd666e791d7" CreationDate="2018-02-12T18:06:32.197" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|myth-identification|roman|trojan-war|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13329" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3345" RevisionGUID="4c8b1fc9-f8e2-4cd8-9b9f-37ad1e96cb56" CreationDate="2018-02-13T08:24:52.367" UserId="57" Comment="added 13 characters in body; edited tags" Text="I have asked earlier if the Trojans called the gods by their Greek names (Athena, Demeter...) or their Roman names (Minerva, Ceres...). I was told they had their own language and the two sides had trouble communicating, but it was not impossible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After Troy is destroyed, Aeneas escapes in the carnage and, somewhere down the line, finds himself in Carthage, ruled by Queen Dido. I have not heard of them having trouble communicating. Does this suggest that (1) they spoke the same language (Trojan language), (2) the Trojans (or at least Aeneas) knew the Carthaginian language, (3) the people of Carthage (or at least Queen Dido) knew the Trojan language, or (4) the two countries/cities were trading partners and had a handle on the other language?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13330" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3345" RevisionGUID="4c8b1fc9-f8e2-4cd8-9b9f-37ad1e96cb56" CreationDate="2018-02-13T08:24:52.367" UserId="57" Comment="added 13 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|greek|roman|trojan-war|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13331" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3345" RevisionGUID="ebb37632-21f9-4d6e-8425-914a56310054" CreationDate="2018-02-13T08:32:29.107" UserId="57" Comment="edited title" Text="If the Trojans had a different language than the Acheans, does this mean they spoke the same as Queen Dido?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13332" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3346" RevisionGUID="a680773a-6e17-4d03-85fa-cb89b2814a07" CreationDate="2018-02-13T12:08:33.443" UserId="2682" Text="There is no especially close correspondence between Homer's Proteus, as a *Halios Geron*, &quot;Old Man of the Sea,&quot; and any deity in the Ancient Egyptian pantheons. Two Egyptian water deities could be noted as somewhat, very vaguely approximate: Wadj-wer and Nu[n], who are themselves at rather opposite ends of the spectrum in their own world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Wadj-wer**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Wadj Wer was a fertility god who's name means &quot;Great Green&quot;. His&#xD;&#xA;&gt; origins were probably either off Egypt's Mediterranean coast or along&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the major lagoons of the Nile Delta such as at Lake Mariut, Idku,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Burullus and Mazala. As early as the Old Kingdom this deity is shown&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in a relief from the pyramid site of Abusir. He proceeds among the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fecundity figures, carrying an offering loaf on a mat and with symbols&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of life (the &quot;ankh&quot; sign) suspended from his arm. Under his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; androgynous form with an emphasized breast and a belly indicative of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; pregnancy, Wadj Wer is clearly associated with procreation and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; prosperity. Water signs are carved across his body suggesting the rich&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fishing in the Delta lakes.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; *- TourEgypt.net's article **&quot;Wadj Wer: The Pregnant God&quot;***&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [*Cow of Gold: An Encyclopedia of Egyptian Mythology*](https://cowofgold.wikispaces.com/Wadj-Wer), Wadj-wer was &quot;A Hapi-like fecundity figure&quot; who &quot;was long believed to be the personification of the Mediterranean Sea, but is now thought to have actually represented the large lakes and lagoons of the north Delta region.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Cow of Gold's Wadj-wer][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Wadj-Wer was shown as a man with long hair, a large belly, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; heavy breasts, symbolizing the rich yield of the area he represents.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He was often depicted as carrying the ankh, a palm branch, or trays of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; food. His body was always covered in symbolic waves.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps Wadj-wer's modern identification with the Mediterranean has to do with associating the meaning of his name with the term by which many ancient inhabitants of the Ancient Near East referred to the Mediterranean: the &quot;Great Sea.&quot; If Wadj-wer really was a personification of this body of water then he would indeed come quite close to being a counterpart to Proteus, as well as several other major Greek sea-gods who were to some extents themselves personifications of this sea. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, even if this identification of Wadj-wer were accurate, there is the fact of his androgyny. The reason that the Cow of Gold refers to him as &quot;Hapi-like&quot; is that he bears a striking resemblance to the much less obscure Nile deity Ḥāpi, with whom he shares the attributes of being depicted as a *man* with overt female attributes, such as being pregnant and apparently lactating. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although Greek water deities (both of salt-water and fresh) were typically also conceived of as fertility deities, they are invariably represented as unambiguously male, even in their common animal form as bulls. (There are female Greek water deities too, and these, correspondingly, are unambiguously feminine.) The Greek gods of *rivers* in particular often appeared as bulls. Neilos, the personification and god of the Nile River in Greek myths, arguably does not have much, if anything, to do with the main Egyptian Nile personification Ḥāpi. In the same vein, Wadj-wer is quite unlike Proteus or any of the other Greek marine geriatrics (or any other Hellenic sea-god).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Nu[n]**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Egyptian cosmogony, especially at Heliopolis and Hermopolis, the universe is supposed to have begun as an inert mass of water containing all the matter which later separated to form the different elements and compounds that make up recognisable objects and distinct lifeforms, including the gods. This water-mass was itself a god, named Nu, or Nun, whose properties strikingly parallel the watery abyss in Hebrew and Mesopotamian cosmogonies. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In all these cosmologies the entire universe seems to exist as a bubble inside the endless expanse of primordial fluid. The counterpart to this in Greek myth, rather than Proteus or any other mainstream marine divinity, is found in the somewhat unorthodox cult of the Orphics, who say that one of the first entities to exist was the god Hydros, literally &quot;Water.&quot; Together with some other primaeval beings, Hydros would go on to engender the rest of the universe. There is correlation here with the Titan Okeanos [Oceanus], whose cosmic body formed a stream which encircled the entire earth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the mainstream version of the Greek cosmogony, Khaos [Chaos], &quot;Gap,&quot; represents virtually all the same things that Nu does, except that Khaos is more of an admixture of all the elements in such a way that he (or she, maybe) is described as more of a vast emptiness (hence the name &quot;Gap&quot;) rather than a solid or liquid bulk. In this version Khaos is the origin of the material that everything else in existence derived itself from. Okeanos is a generation or two younger than the first beings to emerge from Khaos, and one of his numerous daughters would become the mother-in-law of Proteus.&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; Neither Khaos nor Hydros nor Okeanos is a *Halios Geron*, however (although two of Okeanos' half-brothers are&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;), even if we could more plausibly connect them to Nu.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The English word &quot;ocean&quot; comes from Okeanos' name. At least [one British Egyptologist](https://archive.org/stream/godsofegyptianso00budg#page/284/mode/2up)&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; has this to say regarding Nu: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It must also be noted that the ocean and also the Nile were identified&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with  Nu, whose characteristics changed during the latter part of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dynastic period. The name of this god has been compared with the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Coptic word [![Coptic noun][2]][2] &quot;abyss,&quot; &quot;deep,&quot; and the like, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; it is possible that it may have some connection with it...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps by &quot;ocean&quot; here this writer could also intend &quot;sea,&quot; and so perchance a loose connection could be made therefrom to a Greek sea deity, although that, I think, would be tenuous.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The King and His Origins**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Having disclaimed all of that, there is in Greek mythology a rather different version of Proteus, who was a mortal *king* of Egypt. Like two of his predecessors on the throne,&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; he was a son of Poseidon. Through this king's father, the King of the Sea, then, we still have the connection, in the Greek myths, between Egypt, together with Proteus, and the sea. King Proteus, like the sea-god Proteus, is also connected to the Trojan War saga, even more intimately. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most popular version of his involvement therein is that while on the way to Troy from Lakedaimon, Paris and Helen passed through his domain. Proteus substituted Helen for a phantom version of herself, which he sent Paris off to Troy with. For nine years thereafter, then, the Greeks fought the Trojans essentially for nothing, for an illusion. Menelaus later had to come to Egypt to retrieve the real Helen from thence. Also his two sons challenged Herakles to a wrestling-match and paid for the effort with their lives.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ancient writers after Homer, just as well as modern ones, have made attempts to expound upon King Proteus and his connection to Egypt and even to the divine marine version of the same character, either via the etymology of his name or by equating him with a particular &quot;historical&quot; Pharaoh. Diodorus Siculus has this to say:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;After the death of this king [“*Mendes, whom some call Marros*”]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; there were no rulers for five generations, and then a man of obscure&#xD;&#xA;&gt; origin was chosen king, whom the Egyptians call Ketes, but who among&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Greeks is thought to be that Proteus  who lived at the time of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; war about Ilion.&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Some tradition records that this Proteus was experienced in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; knowledge of the winds and that he would change his body, sometimes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; into the form of different animals, sometimes into a tree or fire or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; something else, and it so happens that the account which the priests&#xD;&#xA;&gt; give of Ketes is in agreement with that tradition.&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;For, according to the priests, from the close association which&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the king constantly maintained with the astrologers, he had gained&#xD;&#xA;&gt; experience in such matters, and from a custom which has been passed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; down among the kings of Egypt has arisen the myths current among the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greeks about the way Proteus changed his shape.&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;For it was a practice among the rulers of Egypt to wear upon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their heads the forepart of a lion, or bull, or snake as symbols of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their rule; at times also trees or fire, and in some cases they even&#xD;&#xA;&gt; carried on their heads large bunches of fragrant herbs for incense,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; these last serving to enhance their comeliness and at the same time to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fill all other men with fear and religious awe.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Prof. Charles Henry Oldfather, the translator of the preceding quote,&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; appends this footnote to the first instance of the word *Proteus* herein:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Diodorus in his account of Proteus follows Herodotus (2.112 ff.), who,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; it has been suggested, may have confused an Egyptian title, Proutî,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with the familiar &quot;Proteus&quot; (cp. How and Wells, A Commentary on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Herodotus, 1 p223). Cetes [Ketes], apparently, cannot be identified with any&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Egyptian ruler.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anne Burton has written [a commentary on this passage of Diodorus](https://books.google.com/books?id=sXiMtMnPHikC&amp;pg=PA182#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false),&lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt; saying that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;The identity of the Egyptian king called by the Greeks Proteus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; remains uncertain. Diodorus is the first to attribute to him the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Egyptian name Cetes, a form which appears to bear no relation to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; known name of any Egyptian king. It is, however, very likely that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cetes is the Greek form of the Egyptian *ḥȝty-Ꜥ* “chieftain”, or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “local prince”✭, particularly as Diodorus specifically says that this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; king was of obscure origin, i.e. he was not a member of the ruling&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dynasty.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;In Homer Proteus appears as an old man of the sea, but even here&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he is called Αίγύπτιος, and is said to live on the island of Pharos.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Herodotus, II, 112, he appears for the first time as a king, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; therefore mortal, and here he is said to live in Memphis.  In&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Euripides, *Helen*, Proteus appears as king, not δαίμων, of Pharos;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; while Vergil and Ovid both associate Proteus with Carpathus, an island&#xD;&#xA;&gt; between Crete and Rhodes, probably used to indicate roughly the same&#xD;&#xA;&gt; area of the Mediterranean as Homer. Elsewhere, Proteus appears to have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; been associated with Thrace, and legends portray him as coming from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thrace to Egypt. Spiegelberg, “Der ägypter König Proteus”, *BIFAO*,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; XXX, 1930, 103-106, suggests that the confusion between the Greek and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Egyptian Proteus arose when the Greeks saw statues of kings with the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; attributes of the Nile-god, and related them to their own Proteus. But&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this is not entirely convincing, as Proteus appears never to have been&#xD;&#xA;&gt; seen as a fruitful river god. Wiedemann, *Herodots zweites Buch*, p.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 432, suggests that the Proteus of Herodotus’ account was not the Greek&#xD;&#xA;&gt; figure, but an unidentified Egyptian who was compared with him. This&#xD;&#xA;&gt; explanation is made the more plausible by the similarity between the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greek name Proteus, and the Egyptian title *pȝ-rwty*.✭✭&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A couple of Burton's footnotes being equally informative, I have embedded them into my own, below, *q.v.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Herodotus commentary&lt;sup&gt;7&lt;/sup&gt; by Walter Wybergh How &amp; Joseph Wells that is referenced by both Oldfather and Burton says the following under the heading [&quot;Homer and Egyptian history&quot;](https://archive.org/stream/acommentaryonher24146gut/24146-pdf#page/n243/mode/2up), on *Historiai* 2.112.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The words, &quot;a man of Memphis,&quot; imply that Proteus was of a different&#xD;&#xA;&gt; family from the previous kings. Homer (*Od.* iv 126) makes Polybus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; king in Egyptian Thebes at the time of the Trojan War, and Manetho&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (*FHG* ii. 581) identifies him with the last ruler of the nineteenth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dynasty, whom he calls Θούωρις. Diodorus (i. 62) follows H. Perhaps H.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; has confused an Egyptian title, Proutî, with the familiar “Proteus.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is suggested that, as Proteus is a sea-god in Homer (*Od.* iv.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 385), H. may have identified him with the fish-god (Dagon) of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Τυρίων στρατόπεδον (112. 2). At any rate, H. does not commit the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; absurdity of Diodorus (ut sup.), who explains the famous&#xD;&#xA;&gt; transformations of Proteus as a myth due to the Egyptian custom of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; king wearing lion skins and other articles on his head, to inspire&#xD;&#xA;&gt; terror and reverence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Notes**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. The Oceanid Doris, whose daughter, the Nereid Psamathe, married Proteus.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. The sea-gods Nereus (husband of Doris and father of Psamathe [*see prev. note*]) and Phorkys [Phorcys], sons of Pontos and Gaia.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. Budge, E.A.W. 1904. *The Gods of the Egyptians, or Studies in Egyptian Mythology*. Methuen &amp; Co., London, p. 284.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;4. Belos [Belus], son of Poseidon by Epaphos' daughter Libya; and Bousiris [Busiris], son of Poseidon by Epaphos' daughter Lysianassa.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;5. Oldfather, C.H. 1933. *Diodorus Siculus, Book 1: A*. Loeb Classical Library; London, &amp; Cambridge, MA.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;6. Burton, A. 1972. *Diodorus Siculus, Book 1: A Commentary*. E.J. Brill. Leiden, pp. 182-183.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;✭ The main argument against this theory is that the Egyptian *ḥ* usually disappears in the Greek (cf. *Ḥwt-Ḥr*—Ἄϑυρ), though it is retained in Coptic as **ϧ** (*Wb.*, III, 25f.). There is no instance of *ḥ* becoming κ, which one might expect rather to come from Egyptian *ḳ*, *ẖ* or perhaps *ḫ*. But there is e.g. the anomalous instance of Greek χάμψα from Egyptian *msḥ*, Coptic [![MSAH][3]][3] [*N. 1 on p. 182 in original.*]&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;✭✭ The title *pȝ-rwty*, “high doors” (of temple or palace), is mentioned by Mallet, *Les premiers éstablissments grecs en Égypte*, p. 401, n. 3, as “un des nombreux titres donnés aux souverains égyptiens.” … Lauth, *Ägyptische Chronologie*, p. 181f. was the first to identify this title with the name Proteus. [*N. 1 on p. 183 in original.*]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;7. How, W.W., &amp; Wells, J., 1928. *A Commentary on Herodotus*. Oxford University Press, Great Britain.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/7wPtT.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/HZrx5.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/XAK2a.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13333" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3347" RevisionGUID="676d5525-4987-4925-b222-fd03fc1187bb" CreationDate="2018-02-13T14:33:37.100" UserId="4105" Text="In the 2016 film [Gods of Egypt][1] the gods bleed a bright golden liquid when hurt (which happens often). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I wonder if there's any basis for this in Egyptian mythology, an Egyptian equivalent to the Greek [ichor][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/gods_of_egypt/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichor" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13334" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3347" RevisionGUID="676d5525-4987-4925-b222-fd03fc1187bb" CreationDate="2018-02-13T14:33:37.100" UserId="4105" Text="Do the Egyptian gods bleed?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13335" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3347" RevisionGUID="676d5525-4987-4925-b222-fd03fc1187bb" CreationDate="2018-02-13T14:33:37.100" UserId="4105" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13336" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3339" RevisionGUID="3a52e629-293a-4bb0-b6b5-23e71fff1719" CreationDate="2018-02-13T14:36:47.277" UserId="4105" Comment="added 302 characters in body; edited title" Text="The 2017 horror film [The Ritual][1] features a creature one of the characters calls a jötunn (and a bastard son of Loki). I have always imagined the jötnar as anthropomorphic giants, however the unique design of the film's creature made me wonder about the shapes of jötnar in Norse lore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I realize all jötnar don't necessarily look the same, but do they at least share some defining characteristics? Is it, for example, possible to identify a creature in a tale as jötunn from its description alone?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've focused this on the shape of jötnar, as their size is discussed in: [How to reconcile the size differential between giants and non-giants in Norse mythology?](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2809/how-to-reconcile-the-size-differential-between-giants-and-non-giants-in-norse-my?rq=1)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_ritual_2017/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13337" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3339" RevisionGUID="3a52e629-293a-4bb0-b6b5-23e71fff1719" CreationDate="2018-02-13T14:36:47.277" UserId="4105" Comment="added 302 characters in body; edited title" Text="How many different shapes do jötnar come in?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13340" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3348" RevisionGUID="d8296671-52a9-46d1-b1cb-271b1350c5cb" CreationDate="2018-02-13T17:46:11.100" UserId="666" Text="Their shape seems to have varied. A lot. This is perhaps most obvious if we look at their women. We have, on the one hand, desireable women such as [Gerðr][1], whom Frey falls in love with and sends Skirnir to woo, as told in *[Skírnirsmál][2]*, and who is described as so fair that she lighted sea and sky. Also, Freyäs father, Njord, was married to the giantess Skadi, who in *[Grímnismál][3]* is described as the &quot;fair bride of the Gods&quot;. Several of the Gods has also been known to couple with giantesses and produce offspring; in fact, most of the Aesir have a giantess for a mother (the one exeption of which I am sure is Balder).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the other extreme, we have giantesses such as the (paternal) grandmother of Tyr, described in [*Hymiskviða*][4] as &quot;ugly&quot; and having &quot;nine hundred heads&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Having several heads seems like something of a common trait; one of the first giants, an unnamed figure that is created out of a union between Ymir's feet, had according to [*Vafþrúðnismál*][5] six heads (no other of the poems which mentions him notes this detail).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That there is no easy way to tell if a person is a giant or not is best seen in the story of how [Sleipnir][6] came to be: An unnamed figure offers the newly established gods to build them fortifications in three years with the aid of no one but his horse. If he manages, he will get Freya, the Sun and the Moon. He almost does, but Loki manages to lure away his horse in the guise of a mare, and so he fails. Only then does the Aesir realise that the builder was a jötunn  and calls for Thor, who smashes his head. (*[Gylfaginning][7]*, chapter 42).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, for the most parts, the stories makes it explicitly clear from the start who is a giant and who is not. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ger%C3%B0r&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sk%C3%ADrnism%C3%A1l&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gr%C3%ADmnism%C3%A1l&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hymiskvi%C3%B0a&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaf%C3%BEr%C3%BA%C3%B0nism%C3%A1l&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleipnir&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gylfaginning" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13341" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3345" RevisionGUID="9e10670c-6b9e-4834-b47a-33994eee0137" CreationDate="2018-02-13T18:58:44.160" UserId="4105" Comment="added link to the previous question, formatted list" Text="I have [previously asked][1] if the Trojans called the gods by their Greek names (Athena, Demeter...) or their Roman names (Minerva, Ceres...). I was told they had their own language and the two sides had trouble communicating, but it was not impossible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After Troy is destroyed, Aeneas escapes in the carnage and, somewhere down the line, finds himself in Carthage, ruled by Queen Dido. I have not heard of them having trouble communicating. Does this suggest that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. they spoke the same language (Trojan language), &#xD;&#xA;2. the Trojans (or at least Aeneas) knew the Carthaginian language, &#xD;&#xA;3. the people of Carthage (or at least Queen Dido) knew the Trojan language, or &#xD;&#xA;4. the two countries/cities were trading partners and had a handle on the other language?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/3131/did-the-trojans-worship-the-gods-by-their-greek-or-roman-names" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13342" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3345" RevisionGUID="9e10670c-6b9e-4834-b47a-33994eee0137" CreationDate="2018-02-13T18:58:44.160" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 666, 2774 edit id of 528" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13343" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3349" RevisionGUID="7e4ac004-749f-4ddf-9c17-3e0de495931c" CreationDate="2018-02-14T00:26:50.910" UserId="4705" Text="Could Odin from Greek Mythology be Christianity's &quot;The Creator&quot; and Father of Jesus?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13344" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3349" RevisionGUID="7e4ac004-749f-4ddf-9c17-3e0de495931c" CreationDate="2018-02-14T00:26:50.910" UserId="4705" Text="Could Odin Be Known to Christian's as God?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13345" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3349" RevisionGUID="7e4ac004-749f-4ddf-9c17-3e0de495931c" CreationDate="2018-02-14T00:26:50.910" UserId="4705" Text="|greek|norse|christianity|odin|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13346" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3350" RevisionGUID="f928065d-e0a7-416b-9da4-30336f31afd9" CreationDate="2018-02-14T09:50:39.300" UserId="4695" Text="Odin is not from Greek Mythology. Rather he is from the Norse Mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also father of Jesus was [Joseph][1] who was a human and a saint not any God. Whereas [Odin][2] was the the King of [Asgard][3] and also effectively the King of Norse Gods who lived in Asgard.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Joseph&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odin&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asgard" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13347" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3336" RevisionGUID="b7c220a7-1743-47cc-9a06-7f7792ccd181" CreationDate="2018-02-14T10:38:57.160" UserId="4105" Comment="added folkloristics tag" Text="|folkloristics|terminology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13348" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3336" RevisionGUID="b7c220a7-1743-47cc-9a06-7f7792ccd181" CreationDate="2018-02-14T10:38:57.160" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 2774, 666 edit id of 527" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13349" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3351" RevisionGUID="c458d6d8-9e65-4607-98bb-3125583de0cf" CreationDate="2018-02-14T15:05:50.837" UserId="4271" Text="Dis comes from the god Dis Pater, the chthonic deity of riches and fertility. Orcus is as you say, a punisher of those who swear false oaths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dis Pater was often shortened to Dis. It has sense become an alternate name for the Underworld(i.e. Erebus, Hades, Pluto), or a part of it. The same with Orcus. Entomology says his name meant land of the dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The god of death is often said to be Hades/Pluto, but is actually Thanatos/Mors. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Simplified, Dis is a name for the Underworld. Orcus means Underworld. The Underworld takes its name from the ruler. Thanatos is confused with Hades. Hope this helped." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13350" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3352" RevisionGUID="083b04e7-fb08-42c8-bc9f-71e1844c8cd6" CreationDate="2018-02-14T15:23:07.023" UserId="4271" Text="I was researching and I came across Abraxas, a daemon(inferior god), an archon, an aeon, the &quot;Supreme&quot; god, an angel...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He has a place in many mythologies, and the number 365 keeps coming up. 365 heavens, spheres, numbers, archons, skies, powers of imagined heavens, days of the year(a given), numeric value, spirits, others and virtues.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a list of what any of the sets are(i.e., the 365 heavens, powers, virtues...)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13351" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3352" RevisionGUID="083b04e7-fb08-42c8-bc9f-71e1844c8cd6" CreationDate="2018-02-14T15:23:07.023" UserId="4271" Text="What are the 365 virtues?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13352" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3352" RevisionGUID="083b04e7-fb08-42c8-bc9f-71e1844c8cd6" CreationDate="2018-02-14T15:23:07.023" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|myth-identification|comparative|aztec|hebrew|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13353" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3353" RevisionGUID="75c1d205-065f-478d-8645-1c5cbfb2fdf9" CreationDate="2018-02-14T16:08:54.130" UserId="4271" Text="How did Shintoism(Japanese polytheism religion) explain human origin? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, does it have a flood myth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13354" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3353" RevisionGUID="75c1d205-065f-478d-8645-1c5cbfb2fdf9" CreationDate="2018-02-14T16:08:54.130" UserId="4271" Text="What is the Japanese human origin myth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13355" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3353" RevisionGUID="75c1d205-065f-478d-8645-1c5cbfb2fdf9" CreationDate="2018-02-14T16:08:54.130" UserId="4271" Text="|japanese|shinto|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13357" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2238" RevisionGUID="b6f68770-4cf5-4ede-8c0a-71069c7b6e00" CreationDate="2018-02-14T19:37:07.843" UserId="292" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="You raise a really good point. It is strange that there are no bears in Norse myth. The wolf seems to have really engaged them, perhaps because of the duality of wolf/dog, tame and wild, while the bear to them was totally wild.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;I wonder if @LocalFluff isn't on to something, because [berserks][2] were seen as totally outside society, too unpredicatable and dangerous to have around. (In [Egils saga][3] Skallgrim kills a servant when the berserker rage descends on him, and nearly kills his son.) A wolf could become a dog, but you can't tame a bear and put it to use or have it as a pet. &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;By the way there were a kind of berserkers, [ulfhednar][1], who turned into wolves, although you don't hear so much about them.  &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;PS - The [Lewis chessmen][4] include berserks, biting their shields.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://fuckyeahnorsemythology.tumblr.com/post/97672399212/berserkers-and-ulfhednar-viking-ninja&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends/viking-berserkers-fierce-warriors-or-drug-fuelled-madmen-001472&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/berserke.shtml&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.artsmarttalk.com/artblog/chess-history-charm-the-lewis-chessman" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13358" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3349" RevisionGUID="18140be6-b124-409d-aef9-e4d7f492db1f" CreationDate="2018-02-14T22:33:31.973" UserId="2892" Comment="added 11 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Could Odin/Zeus from Norse/Greek Mythology be Christianity's &quot;The Creator&quot; and Father of Jesus?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13359" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3349" RevisionGUID="18140be6-b124-409d-aef9-e4d7f492db1f" CreationDate="2018-02-14T22:33:31.973" UserId="2892" Comment="added 11 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Could Odin/Zeus Be Known to Christians as God?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13360" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3349" RevisionGUID="18140be6-b124-409d-aef9-e4d7f492db1f" CreationDate="2018-02-14T22:33:31.973" UserId="2892" Comment="added 11 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|greek|norse|christianity|odin|zeus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13361" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3354" RevisionGUID="2c85ddb9-8d0f-4ce2-a73c-9412b812c5fb" CreationDate="2018-02-14T22:40:30.770" UserId="2892" Text="It's interesting that the most common epithet of Zeus in Greek literature is not the form of the name beginning in &quot;z&quot;, but the form equivalent to Dios.  (This is the same word root for god in the Romance languages of Europe.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some have linked the &quot;seus&quot; part of Jesus' name to Zeus, arguing that his original name was Joshua (Ysheua).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Joseph Campbell might refer to Odin, Zeus and the Lord of Hosts as &quot;sky fathers&quot;, and the depictions of all deities in art have certain characteristics such as the beard.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is no accident at Italian Renaissance art in particular was heavily influenced by Classical mythology, at the peak of the power of the Catholic Church.  You can even find a direct merging of the two cosmologies in Dante's Inferno, which itself influences the Christian conception of the universe second only probably to the bible itself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The main distinction I see is that the polytheistic versions of these kings of heaven were only nigh-omniscient and nigh-omnipotent.  *(The kings of their respective hills, but inferior to the &quot;monotheistic&quot; conception.)* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Sorry for the quickie answer--have to run in like 2 minutes, but I'll come back tomorrow and add links to everything, and likely expand on the theme. But I wanted to chime into make the point this is a good question, despite the original form of the post.*&lt;/sub&gt; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13363" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3353" RevisionGUID="a5e00e94-77af-4867-b193-edd2f10d2525" CreationDate="2018-02-15T09:06:40.520" UserId="57" Comment="added 16 characters in body" Text="How did Shinto (the traditional Japanese polytheistic religion) explain human origin? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, does it have a flood myth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13364" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3355" RevisionGUID="2d6e3ef1-bea3-4aeb-b52a-1d80bf69679f" CreationDate="2018-02-15T12:57:39.387" UserId="57" Text="Apparently, there is a version of the [Pirithous and Theseus story][1] that has Hades trapping the pair in the Underworld by having them sit on the *Chairs of Forgetfulness*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This happened, some think, because Theseus was not in Athens but in the Underworld where he had come with his accomplice Pirithous so that he could marry the goddess of his dreams: Persephone. Many reproaches could be made against these two friends, except that they lacked audacity. And it is on account of this quality, they say, that Zeus bade them in a dream to go to the realm of shadows, and there ask Hades for the hand of Persephone. In the Underworld they were cheerfully received by Hades, who bade them to take a sit. Having done as they were told, these two disoriented middle-aged gentlemen saw themselves grow fast to the Chair of Forgetfulness, being held there either because the rock grew to their flesh, or else by coils of serpents. It has also been told that they were stretched out and tortured by the ERINYES.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Greek Mythology Link: Pirithous][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; --- &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to some version, Hades, the king of underworld, cheerfully welcomed Pirithous and Theseus in the underworld and asked them to take a sit.  When they sat on the chair, they saw themselves grow fast to the chair of forgetfulness, being held there either because the rock grew to their flash or by coils of snakes. Pirithous and Theseus were stretched out and tortured by Erinyes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Greek Mythology: Theseus and Pirithous][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, none of the online references to the story I've found mention its source. Help? Where does this story come from?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirithous#Punishment_in_Underworld&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://01greekmythology.blogspot.gr/2015/01/theseus-and-pirithous.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.maicar.com/GML/Pirithous.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13365" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3355" RevisionGUID="2d6e3ef1-bea3-4aeb-b52a-1d80bf69679f" CreationDate="2018-02-15T12:57:39.387" UserId="57" Text="What is the source of the story of Hades trapping Pirithous and Theseus in the Chairs of Forgetfulness?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13366" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3355" RevisionGUID="2d6e3ef1-bea3-4aeb-b52a-1d80bf69679f" CreationDate="2018-02-15T12:57:39.387" UserId="57" Text="|greek|myth-identification|underworld|theseus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13367" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="2822" RevisionGUID="58034b06-6cbb-4f88-8592-7cf1b99da12c" CreationDate="2018-02-15T15:38:48.777" UserId="-1" Comment="59" />
  <row Id="13368" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3356" RevisionGUID="3ee8d30b-1850-4001-8bae-8896d04575b7" CreationDate="2018-02-15T22:00:04.393" UserId="2682" Text="**Apollodorus' *Epitome* 1.24**:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Theseus, arriving in the realm of Haides [Hades] with Peirithous&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Pirithous], was thoroughly deceived, for Haides on the pretense of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hospitality had them sit first upon the throne of Lethe. Their bodies&#xD;&#xA;&gt; grew onto it, and were held down by the serpent's coils. Now&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Peirithous remained fast there for all time, but Herakles led Theseus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; back up and sent him to Athens. Thence he was driven by Menestheus and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; went to Lykomedes [Lycomedes], who threw him down an abyss and killed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;James George Frazer's translation of the same passage renders &quot;the throne of Lethe&quot; rather as &quot;the Chair of Forgetfulness&quot;, where, like in the preceding quotation, it is singular (rather than *chair**s***). Lethe is the personification of oblivion, or forgetfulness, who dwelt in the Underworld. In his play *Phaedra*, one of Seneca's characters mentions Theseus being &quot;hidden away in Lethean depths [*Lethaeo abditum*]&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Frazer supplies the following footnote to this same paragraph of his *Epitome* translation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As to Theseus and Pirithous in hell, and the rescue of Theseus by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hercules [*Herakles*], see above, Apollod. 2.5.12 with the note. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; great painter Polygnotus painted the two heroes seated in chairs,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Theseus holding his friend's sword and his own, while Pirithous gazed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wistfully at the now useless blades, that had done such good service&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in the world of light and life. See Paus. 10.29.9. No ancient author,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; however, except Apollodorus in the present passage, expressly mentions&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Chair of Forgetfulness, though Horace seems to allude to it (Hor.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Carm. 4.7.27ff.), where he speaks of “the Lethaean bonds” which held&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fast Pirithous, and which his faithful friend was powerless to break.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But when Apollodorus speaks of the heroes growing to their seats, he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; may be following the old poet Panyasis, who said that Theseus and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pirithous were not pinioned to their chairs, but that the rock growing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to their flesh held them as in a vice (Paus. 10.29.9). Indeed, Theseus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stuck so fast that, on being wrenched away by Hercules, he left a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; piece of his person adhering to the rock, which, according to some&#xD;&#xA;&gt; people, was the reason why the Athenians ever afterwards were so&#xD;&#xA;&gt; remarkably spare in that part of their frame. See *Suidas, s.v.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Λίσποι*; *Scholiast on Aristoph. Kn. 1368;* compare *Aulus Gellius&#xD;&#xA;&gt; x.16.13.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The section of Apollodorus' Bibliotheka (2.5.12) referenced in the footnote, which narrates the same event, gives no details about the mechanics of the imprisonment, simply saying that Theseus and Peirithous were &quot;bound fast.&quot; I suppose that where we get the idea of more than one &quot;chair of forgetfulness&quot; is in Pausanias' description of the painting by Polygnotus in the *Description of Greece* 10.29.9, also referenced above (twice) in Frazer's footnote:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lower down than Odysseus are Theseus and Peirithous sitting upon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; chairs. The former is holding in his hands the sword of Peirithous and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his own. Peirithous is looking at the swords, and you might conjecture&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that he is angry with them for having been useless and of no help in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their daring adventures. Panyassis the poet says that Theseus and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Peirithous did not sit chained to their chairs, but that the rock grew&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to their flesh and so served as chains.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(By the way, Carlos Parada's Greek Mythology Link does mention these reference sources, specifically those of Apollodorus and Pausanias, on the webpage that your quote comes from, albeit, granted that it *is* in super-fine print in a long list of several other references at the bottom of the page.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13369" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3357" RevisionGUID="82ffff1e-44a4-419b-8141-ce92c55990f3" CreationDate="2018-02-15T22:31:55.457" UserId="4711" Text="I'm currently playing a role playing game as a cleric that worships a god of storms and I'm researching what kinds of offerings that god would likely accept. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What examples are there of the kinds of offerings that were made to Thor or other gods of storms?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13370" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3357" RevisionGUID="82ffff1e-44a4-419b-8141-ce92c55990f3" CreationDate="2018-02-15T22:31:55.457" UserId="4711" Text="What kind of offerings did worshipers make to Thor or other gods of storm?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13371" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3357" RevisionGUID="82ffff1e-44a4-419b-8141-ce92c55990f3" CreationDate="2018-02-15T22:31:55.457" UserId="4711" Text="|norse|sacrifice|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13372" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3358" RevisionGUID="94137145-3b08-47a3-84fc-ec10f836e1da" CreationDate="2018-02-16T05:27:14.407" UserId="3076" Text="The yamato no orichi is actually ‘the flood myth’ of japan. The 8 heads of Orochi are actually 8 rivers. Can’t remember the source ,will update again if possible." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13373" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3359" RevisionGUID="8d0f1e88-2aee-4627-8b82-cfc46882d03c" CreationDate="2018-02-16T15:59:54.700" UserId="4712" Text="Entity? Demon? Spirit? Who was or is he? How or by who’s power was this bieng controller?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13374" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3359" RevisionGUID="8d0f1e88-2aee-4627-8b82-cfc46882d03c" CreationDate="2018-02-16T15:59:54.700" UserId="4712" Text="Who was the spirit entity who Solomon commanded to help build the temple?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13375" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3359" RevisionGUID="8d0f1e88-2aee-4627-8b82-cfc46882d03c" CreationDate="2018-02-16T15:59:54.700" UserId="4712" Text="|underworld|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13376" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3354" RevisionGUID="a800efe9-2576-4fc2-a2c0-a5d71b458f09" CreationDate="2018-02-16T17:03:53.353" UserId="2892" Comment="added 260 characters in body" Text="It's interesting that the most common epithet of Zeus in Greek literature is not the form of the name beginning in &quot;z&quot;, but the form equivalent to [*Dios*](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D*dio%2Fs2).  (This is the same word root for god in the Romance languages of Europe.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some have linked the &quot;seus&quot; part of Jesus' name to Zeus, arguing that his original name was Joshua (ישוע [*Yeshua*][1]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Joseph Campbell might refer to Odin, Zeus and the Lord of Hosts as &quot;sky fathers&quot;, and the depictions of all deities in art have certain characteristics such as the beard.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is no accident as Italian Renaissance art in particular was heavily influenced by Classical mythology at the peak of the power of the Catholic Church.  You can even find a direct merging of the two cosmologies in [Dante][2]'s Inferno, which itself influences the Christian conception of the universe second only probably to the bible itself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The main distinction I see is that the polytheistic versions of these kings of heaven were only nigh-omniscient and nigh-omnipotent.  *(The kings of their respective hills, but inferior to the &quot;monotheistic&quot; conception.)* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Sorry for the quickie answer--have to run in like 2 minutes, but I'll come back tomorrow and add links to everything, and likely expand on the theme. But I wanted to chime into make the point this is a good question, despite the original form of the post.*&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.vision.org/visionmedia/religion-and-spirituality-dante-alighieri/64177.aspx" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13377" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3357" RevisionGUID="e43892c8-7687-4c69-b3e6-83f5c7e2b1bc" CreationDate="2018-02-16T17:06:37.953" UserId="2892" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|comparative|sacrifice|rituals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13378" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3360" RevisionGUID="001e6689-c728-4adb-b942-7e33fa2afc15" CreationDate="2018-02-16T19:10:18.940" UserId="666" Text="**Blood and poetry**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Before I go any deeper, I want to clear up a misconception: Thor is not really a god of thunder. Yes, he does generate it, but his main function is as guardian against the forces of chaos (which goes directly against how gods of thunder storms are portrayed in some RPGs).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The main sources for the worship of the Norse gods are the Icelandic sagas and archaeology. The latter is not very good for discerning differences between different gods, and the former is also not very reliable. Thor is actually a prominent god in these. I will give two examples.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *[Saga of Erik the Red][1]*, at one point the Norse explorers are starving. One man, Thorhall, makes an offering to Thor of some poetry he has made, and soon after, a whale is beached. When Thorhall claims that it was due o his offering, the rest of the explorers, who are good Christians, refuse to eat any more.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *[Eyrbyggja saga][2]*, Thorolf Mostrarskegg is a follower of Thor who moves to Iceland. He constructs a new house for himself, with a hallowed side room. In the middle of this was an altar, with an arm ring. This ring  was used for swearing all oaths, and was worn by the cult leader at all sacrifices. There was also a vessel with blood from sacrificed animals, which could be sprinkled in rituals. Thorolf also hallowed a mountain, on which you were not allowed to look unwashed, and not kill people or animals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As the mountain can be a bit unwieldy an offering, we can also take a third example, of a worshipper of Frey: The titular character of *[Hrafnkels saga Freysgoða][3]* has a horse hallowed to his patron, one which he has sworn that he will kill anyone who rides it apart from himself, which of course happens and drives the action of the story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saga_of_Erik_the_Red&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyrbyggja_saga&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrafnkels_saga" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13379" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3361" RevisionGUID="839ac4f7-6c67-4ab2-8789-eb5af306b218" CreationDate="2018-02-16T20:22:46.893" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="A popular Christmas carol runs&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    While shepherds watch'd their flocks by night,&#xD;&#xA;    All seated on the ground,&#xD;&#xA;    The angel of the Lord came down,&#xD;&#xA;    And glory shone around&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;in its first verse. It was recorded in 1700 and has been attributed to Nahum Tate, the Irish poet who was England's Poet Laureate at that time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This has been followed by a number of children's parody versions, including one which runs&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    While shepherds washed their socks by night,&#xD;&#xA;    And hung them on the line,&#xD;&#xA;    The angel of the Lord came down,&#xD;&#xA;    And said &quot;Those socks are mine!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When was this version first sung and recorded?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13380" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3361" RevisionGUID="839ac4f7-6c67-4ab2-8789-eb5af306b218" CreationDate="2018-02-16T20:22:46.893" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="What is the earliest known instance of &quot;When Shepherds Washed their Socks by Night&quot;, the children's version of the Christmas carol?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13381" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3361" RevisionGUID="839ac4f7-6c67-4ab2-8789-eb5af306b218" CreationDate="2018-02-16T20:22:46.893" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13382" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3362" RevisionGUID="1f21d24d-7008-4123-8960-7e699419f994" CreationDate="2018-02-16T20:44:26.900" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="**Solomon is said to have employed a number of demons in building his temple, but the name you are probably seeking is [Asmodeus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asmodeus)**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Testament of Solomon](http://www.esotericarchives.com/solomon/testamen.htm), pseudepigraphically attributed to Solomon but thought to have been written between 0 and 500 CE, is the first source you should go to here. The text names of many of the demons who are said to have built the temple under Solomon's command. Asmodeus, who also appears in the [Book of Tobit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Tobit)  and the [Ars Goetia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goetia), is described as preparing all the clay used in the building's construction, by trampling it down with his feet.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13383" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3363" RevisionGUID="33d3c506-6a68-491c-9373-302c020c7edc" CreationDate="2018-02-16T20:54:02.227" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="Some people believe and report the effectiveness of a method of ensuring they wake at a certain time that consists of banging their head against their pillow the required number of times before they go to sleep. For instance, if they wish to wake up at 8 o'clock, they bang eight times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the earliest recorded instance of this belief and practice? And how far has it spread geographically? (I encountered it in England.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13384" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3363" RevisionGUID="33d3c506-6a68-491c-9373-302c020c7edc" CreationDate="2018-02-16T20:54:02.227" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="Earliest recorded instance and geographical spread of the idea that banging your head on your pillow N times can ensure that you wake up at N o'clock?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13385" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3363" RevisionGUID="33d3c506-6a68-491c-9373-302c020c7edc" CreationDate="2018-02-16T20:54:02.227" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13386" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3364" RevisionGUID="0bde6c11-1c25-4807-8777-a43d4429bf4c" CreationDate="2018-02-16T21:21:10.030" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="The belief that a girl or woman who is menstruating should not wash her hair has been called an &quot;old wives' tale&quot;. Reasons for it have included the idea that at that time of the month her hair will hang limp and not gain body even if washed, and that washing her hair will give her a headache.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the origin of this belief, and what has its geographical spread been?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13387" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3364" RevisionGUID="0bde6c11-1c25-4807-8777-a43d4429bf4c" CreationDate="2018-02-16T21:21:10.030" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="What are the origin and geographical spread of the belief that a girl or woman should not wash her hair when she is menstruating?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13388" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3364" RevisionGUID="0bde6c11-1c25-4807-8777-a43d4429bf4c" CreationDate="2018-02-16T21:21:10.030" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13389" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3362" RevisionGUID="469d75ba-d882-44d0-b982-784c257dbdf6" CreationDate="2018-02-16T22:04:42.503" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body" Text="**Solomon is said to have employed a number of demons in building his temple, but the name you are probably seeking is [Asmodeus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asmodeus)**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Testament of Solomon](http://www.esotericarchives.com/solomon/testamen.htm), pseudepigraphically attributed to Solomon but thought to have been written between 0 and 500 CE, is the first source you should go to here. The text names many of the demons who are said to have built the temple under Solomon's command. Asmodeus, who also appears in the [Book of Tobit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Tobit)  and the [Ars Goetia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goetia), is described as preparing all the clay used in the building's construction, by trampling it down with his feet.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13390" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3364" RevisionGUID="9462b019-44f0-48e0-96b6-daa4aed9e0b6" CreationDate="2018-02-16T22:05:48.983" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="added 3 characters in body" Text="The belief that a girl or woman who is menstruating should not wash her hair has been called an &quot;old wives' tale&quot;. Supposed reasons for it have included the idea that at that time of the month her hair will hang limp and not gain body even if washed, and that washing it will give her a headache.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the origin of this belief, and what has its geographical spread been?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13391" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="3349" RevisionGUID="b9e117ca-9ab0-4d92-8dc1-a4c38f05b6ad" CreationDate="2018-02-16T22:53:35.443" UserId="-1" Comment="103" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:2774,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Gibet&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:666,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;andejons&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:4271,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Andrew Johnson&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:1241,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ken Graham&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="13392" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="19" RevisionGUID="7905dac6-d7ad-4e0d-a329-2ba21c40f348" CreationDate="2018-02-16T22:54:14.053" UserId="4121" Comment="The first Greek Pantheon was comprised of the Elder Gods namely Gaea, Ouranos, Ananke, et.al. " Text="A 'god' is synonymous to a 'deity'; the Titans and Titanesses *were* gods, they were members of the second order of divine beings - after Gaia and Uranus, and the other primordial deities. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cronus and his fellow Titans comprised the second Ancient Greek pantheon (the first comprising of deities such as Ananke, Gaea, and Ouranos), which the younger generation of gods, including Zeus, would later usurp, as the Titans usurped the primordial gods before them. (For more information on this concept of change in dominant deities, read up on the theory of [The Golden Age][1], particularly that of Hesiod, who also wrote the only surviving account of the Titans in his [Theogony][2].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for *why* the Titans have their own order name as opposed to Zeus et al who are simply 'gods', there is debate as to the exact etymology of the word 'titan' but this quote from Hesiod's *Theogony* states:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;But these sons whom he begot himself great Heaven used to call Titans （Strainers） in reproach, for he said that they strained  (τιταίνοντας) and did presumptuous a fearful deed, and that vengeance (τίσιν) for it would come afterwards.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Trans. Evelyn-White, [here with side-by-side Greek][3]. &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;However this is not to say Hesiod was correct; he himself was writing long after the supposed Golden Age ended.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Age&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theogony&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D207" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13393" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="19" RevisionGUID="7905dac6-d7ad-4e0d-a329-2ba21c40f348" CreationDate="2018-02-16T22:54:14.053" Comment="Proposed by 4121 approved by 2774, 1241 edit id of 526" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13394" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3365" RevisionGUID="2fedb65f-9925-4438-9cb0-bd34ff2cf19f" CreationDate="2018-02-17T01:24:14.150" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="Every year in September [a &quot;horn dance&quot; is held in the village of Abbots Bromley][1], Staffordshire, England, a ceremony mentioned for example in J G Frazer's *The Golden Bough*. There are recorded references to the dance in 1686 and of a hobby horse being used in the village in 1532, and it is said that the dance may first have been held at a Bartholomew's Day (Barthelmy) Fair in 1226, five years after the annual fair was chartered to be held in the locality.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The &quot;horns&quot; used are not in fact horns but six sets of reindeer antlers, three white and three black, at least one of which has been dated to the 11th century.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wild reindeer are believed to have died out in England long before that time What is the provenance of these antlers?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.abbotsbromley.com/horn_dance" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13395" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3365" RevisionGUID="2fedb65f-9925-4438-9cb0-bd34ff2cf19f" CreationDate="2018-02-17T01:24:14.150" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="What is the provenance of the reindeer antlers that are used in the Abbots Bromley horn dance?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13396" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3365" RevisionGUID="2fedb65f-9925-4438-9cb0-bd34ff2cf19f" CreationDate="2018-02-17T01:24:14.150" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13397" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3356" RevisionGUID="2d6d5542-9945-4e2f-b90a-888346b33d7f" CreationDate="2018-02-17T07:03:41.840" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; improved formatting" Text="**Apollodorus' *Epitome* 1.24**:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Theseus, arriving in the realm of Haides [Hades] with Peirithous&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Pirithous], was thoroughly deceived, for Haides on the pretense of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hospitality had them sit first upon the throne of Lethe. Their bodies&#xD;&#xA;&gt; grew onto it, and were held down by the serpent's coils. Now&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Peirithous remained fast there for all time, but Herakles led Theseus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; back up and sent him to Athens. Thence he was driven by Menestheus and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; went to Lykomedes [Lycomedes], who threw him down an abyss and killed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;James George Frazer's translation of the same passage renders &quot;the throne of Lethe&quot; rather as &quot;the Chair of Forgetfulness&quot;, where, like in the preceding quotation, it is singular (rather than *chair**s***). Lethe is the personification of oblivion, or forgetfulness, who dwelt in the Underworld. In Line 147 of Seneca's play *Phaedra*, one of the characters mentions Theseus being &quot;hidden away in Lethean depths [*Lethaeo abditum*]&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Frazer supplies the following footnote to his own translation of *Epitome* 1.24:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As to Theseus and Pirithous in hell, and the rescue of Theseus by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hercules [*Herakles*], see above, Apollod. 2.5.12 with the note. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; great painter Polygnotus painted the two heroes seated in chairs,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Theseus holding his friend's sword and his own, while Pirithous gazed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wistfully at the now useless blades, that had done such good service&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in the world of light and life. See Paus. 10.29.9. No ancient author,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; however, except Apollodorus in the present passage, expressly mentions&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Chair of Forgetfulness, though Horace seems to allude to it (Hor.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Carm. 4.7.27ff.), where he speaks of “the Lethaean bonds” which held&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fast Pirithous, and which his faithful friend was powerless to break.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But when Apollodorus speaks of the heroes growing to their seats, he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; may be following the old poet Panyasis, who said that Theseus and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pirithous were not pinioned to their chairs, but that the rock growing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to their flesh held them as in a vice (Paus. 10.29.9). Indeed, Theseus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stuck so fast that, on being wrenched away by Hercules, he left a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; piece of his person adhering to the rock, which, according to some&#xD;&#xA;&gt; people, was the reason why the Athenians ever afterwards were so&#xD;&#xA;&gt; remarkably spare in that part of their frame. See *Suidas, s.v.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Λίσποι*; *Scholiast on Aristoph. Kn. 1368;* compare *Aulus Gellius&#xD;&#xA;&gt; x.16.13.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The section of Apollodorus' *Bibliotheka* (2.5.12) referenced in the footnote, which narrates the same event, gives no details about the mechanics of the imprisonment, simply saying that Theseus and Peirithous were &quot;bound fast.&quot; I suppose that where we get the idea of more than one &quot;chair of forgetfulness&quot; is in Pausanias' description of the painting by Polygnotus at Delphi in the *Description of Greece* 10.29.9, also referenced above in Frazer's footnote:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lower down than Odysseus are Theseus and Peirithous sitting upon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; chairs. The former is holding in his hands the sword of Peirithous and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his own. Peirithous is looking at the swords, and you might conjecture&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that he is angry with them for having been useless and of no help in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their daring adventures. Panyassis the poet says that Theseus and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Peirithous did not sit chained to their chairs, but that the rock grew&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to their flesh and so served as chains.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(By the way, Carlos Parada's Greek Mythology Link does mention these reference sources, specifically those of Apollodorus and Pausanias, on the webpage that your quote comes from, granted that it *is* in super-fine print in a long list of several other references at the bottom of the page.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13398" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3365" RevisionGUID="adfad58d-51d6-423e-a4b4-4b0cd1428487" CreationDate="2018-02-17T11:48:28.163" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="Every year in September [a &quot;horn dance&quot; is held in the village of Abbots Bromley][1], Staffordshire, England, a ceremony mentioned for example in J G Frazer's *The Golden Bough*. There are recorded references to the dance in 1686 and of a hobby horse being used in the village in 1532, and it is said that the dance may first have been held at a Bartholomew's Day (Barthelmy) Fair in 1226, five years after the annual fair was chartered to be held in the locality.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The &quot;horns&quot; used are not in fact horns but six sets of reindeer antlers, three white and three black, at least one of which has been dated to the 11th century.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wild reindeer are believed to have died out in England long before that time. What is the provenance of these antlers?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.abbotsbromley.com/horn_dance" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13399" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3366" RevisionGUID="f77098fc-6487-456c-b8e4-c93096bcbbe9" CreationDate="2018-02-17T23:23:40.260" UserId="3373" Text="It's a hermaphrodite because it symbolically combines both particles of material principes that need to be re-united in spirit through mutual alchemy between the male and female.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The dark wings symbolize the fall into matter, and disconnection from the &quot;eternal monad&quot;, creation in diversity in separation from the whole. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The torch of illumination is akin to wisdom (Head of Wisdom, al-Fihamat) as if &quot;guiding the herd towards illumination or freedom&quot; by a master or mistress. Baphomet here plays a role of a mediator, negotiator, that stays to release, guides to show the lamp, and liberate. A token. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Goat is a sacrificial animal, and thus the &quot;Head of Wisdom&quot; is sacrificed for the common good, sublation, as in alchemical Pelican's blood is a feast for it's children. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The pentagram is a symbol of the Spirit and of liberation, a star as in Egypt is a symbol of spirit and ascent. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It also has a lot to do with the &quot;government over Earth&quot; or the sub-lunary spheres, as in an apotheosis of a perfect judge, between solve (mercy) and coagula (judgment). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As to the Left Hand Path. Females are more ambivalent with the chtonic-lunar side, birth-giving factor, lunation, menstruation cycles, yet that is not a definite. That is mere theory, as within order, conqueress move above the Seven Spheres. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13400" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3367" RevisionGUID="b316b920-b4f8-4c6d-92c4-4af2343452f6" CreationDate="2018-02-18T10:26:40.270" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="Around the turn of the 1970s a rhyme was sung by small children in southern England:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    My friend Billy had a 10-foot willy.&#xD;&#xA;    He showed it to the girl next door (or: He put it through the neighbour's door).&#xD;&#xA;    She thought it was a snake,&#xD;&#xA;    Hit it with a rake,&#xD;&#xA;    And now it's only four foot foor&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What was its historic-geographic spread and what were some of its variants?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13401" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3367" RevisionGUID="b316b920-b4f8-4c6d-92c4-4af2343452f6" CreationDate="2018-02-18T10:26:40.270" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="Historic-geographic spread and variations of the children's rhyme &quot;My friend Billy had a 10-foot willy&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13402" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3367" RevisionGUID="b316b920-b4f8-4c6d-92c4-4af2343452f6" CreationDate="2018-02-18T10:26:40.270" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13403" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3368" RevisionGUID="8bd97e3f-00de-4369-8d5e-29b6c94260ca" CreationDate="2018-02-18T10:46:26.163" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="This orally transmitted children's rhyme has been recorded in many memorates and is discussed in the anthropological literature about this genre of folklore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is known to have been current **in the late 1950s and up until the 1970s**, and was sung in places that include **England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Australia, and New Zealand**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Variations have been reported in the **identity of the unfortunate protagonist** and in the **final length of his organ** once he has received the arguably rather disproportionate comeuppance for his pride.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ian Turner et al, in their work *Cinderella Dressed in Yella*, 1978, report a variant current in Melbourne, Australia, between 1962 and 1973 featuring **&quot;Old King Cole&quot;**, who is also the protagonist in one of the best known rhymes in the 4/4 time which is widespread in this genre.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A version with **&quot;Good King Billy&quot;** is reported in Northern Ireland, which I have found online in a memorate and which is referred to in Hamish MacDonald's *The Gravy Star*, 1999 and by Michael Rosen in his *Penguin Book of Childhood*, dated to 1958.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other variants have &quot;**My cousin Billy**&quot;, &quot;**My Uncle Billy**&quot;, and &quot;**Buffalo Bill**&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;**Four foot four**&quot; is the most common end state, but versions have been recorded with &quot;**two foot foor**&quot; or &quot;**five foot four**&quot;. (Jonathan Blyth, *The Law Of The Playground: A Puerile and Disturbing Dictionary of Playground Insults and Games*, 2004.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The rhyme is referenced in Martyn Hammersley and Peter Woods, ed., *Gender and Ethnicity in Schools: Ethnographic Accounts* (1993); Iona Opie, *The Singing Game* (1998); Eve Bearne and Victor Watson, *Where Texts and Children's Meet* (1999); Catherine Fox, *Love for the Lost* (2015); and Anthony McGowan, *The Art of Failing: Notes from the Underdog* (2017).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13404" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3368" RevisionGUID="6f436e6c-ff96-4d40-b510-1b8d237a651f" CreationDate="2018-02-18T10:53:33.787" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="added 50 characters in body" Text="This orally transmitted children's rhyme has been recorded in many memorates and is discussed in the anthropological literature about this genre of folklore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Historic-geographic spread**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is known to have been current **in the late 1950s and up until the 1970s**, and was sung in places that include **England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Australia, and New Zealand**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Variants**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Variations have been reported in the **identity of the unfortunate protagonist** and in the **final length of his organ** once he has received the arguably rather disproportionate comeuppance for his pride.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ian Turner et al, in their work *Cinderella Dressed in Yella*, 1978, report a variant current in Melbourne, Australia, between 1962 and 1973 featuring **&quot;Old King Cole&quot;**, who is also the protagonist in one of the best known rhymes in the 4/4 time which is widespread in this genre.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A version with **&quot;Good King Billy&quot;** is reported in Northern Ireland, which I have found online in a memorate and which is referred to in Hamish MacDonald's *The Gravy Star*, 1999 and by Michael Rosen in his *Penguin Book of Childhood*, dated to 1958.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other variants have &quot;**My cousin Billy**&quot;, &quot;**My Uncle Billy**&quot;, and &quot;**Buffalo Bill**&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;**Four foot four**&quot; is the most common end state, but versions have been recorded with &quot;**two foot foor**&quot; or &quot;**five foot four**&quot;. (Jonathan Blyth, *The Law Of The Playground: A Puerile and Disturbing Dictionary of Playground Insults and Games*, 2004.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The rhyme is referenced in Martyn Hammersley and Peter Woods, ed., *Gender and Ethnicity in Schools: Ethnographic Accounts* (1993); Iona Opie, *The Singing Game* (1998); Eve Bearne and Victor Watson, *Where Texts and Children's Meet* (1999); Catherine Fox, *Love for the Lost* (2015); and Anthony McGowan, *The Art of Failing: Notes from the Underdog* (2017).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13405" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3368" RevisionGUID="54414271-4938-4773-a3c5-a75efd9be66a" CreationDate="2018-02-18T12:25:42.750" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="added 896 characters in body" Text="This orally transmitted children's rhyme has been recorded in many memorates and is discussed in the anthropological literature about this genre of folklore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Historic-geographic spread**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is known to have been current **in the late 1950s and up until the 1970s**, and was sung in places that include **England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Australia, and New Zealand**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Variants**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Variations have been reported in the **identity of the unfortunate protagonist**, in the **final length of his organ** once he has received the arguably rather disproportionate comeuppance for his pride, and in the level of specification of the reptile for which the second party mistakes it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*a) Identity of the protagonist*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ian Turner et al, in their work *Cinderella Dressed in Yella* (1978), report a variant current in Melbourne, Australia, between 1962 and 1973 featuring **&quot;Old King Cole&quot;**, who is also the protagonist in one of the best known rhymes in the 4/4 time which is widespread in this genre.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A version with **&quot;Good King Billy&quot;** is reported in Northern Ireland, which I have found online in a memorate and which is referred to in Hamish MacDonald's *The Gravy Star* (1999) and by Michael Rosen in his *Penguin Book of Childhood* (1995), dated to 1958.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other variants have &quot;**My cousin Billy**&quot;, &quot;**My Uncle Billy**&quot;, and &quot;**Buffalo Bill**&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*b) Length of his body part at the end of the rhyme*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;**Four foot four**&quot; is the most common end state, but versions have been recorded with &quot;**two foot foor**&quot; or &quot;**five foot four**&quot;. (Jonathan Blyth, *The Law Of The Playground: A Puerile and Disturbing Dictionary of Playground Insults and Games*, 2004.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*c) The reptile that the second party believes she sees*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In most recorded versions, the second party - whether she is described as the girl next door or as a neighbour - mistakes the protagonist's penis for a snake. But in her article &quot;The Subversive World of New Zealand Playground Rhymes&quot; (*Journal of Folklore Research* 44 [2-3], 2007), Janice Ackerley records a variant sung in New Zealand in which the third and fourth lines are &quot;I shot it with a sniper [sic] / 'Cos I thought it was a viper&quot;. (This is also the only variant I am aware of in which the respondent to the act of pride appears in the first person.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Published sources**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In addition to the five sources mentioned above, other published references to the rhyme appear in Martyn Hammersley and Peter Woods, ed., *Gender and Ethnicity in Schools: Ethnographic Accounts* (1993); Iona Opie, *The Singing Game* (1998); Eve Bearne and Victor Watson, *Where Texts and Children's Meet* (1999); Catherine Fox, *Love for the Lost* (2015); and Anthony McGowan, *The Art of Failing: Notes from the Underdog* (2017).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13406" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3368" RevisionGUID="b7a16944-07a5-41aa-a3a2-3beff292dd14" CreationDate="2018-02-18T12:41:17.840" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="added 50 characters in body" Text="This orally transmitted children's rhyme has been recorded in many memorates and is discussed in the anthropological literature about this genre of folklore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Historic-geographic spread**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is known to have been current **in the late 1950s and up until the 1970s**, and it was sung in places that include&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* **Britain** (England, Scotland, and Northern Ireland) and&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* **the Antipodes** (Australia and New Zealand).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Variants**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Variations have been reported in&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* the **identity of the unfortunate protagonist**,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* the **final length of his organ** once he has received the arguably rather disproportionate comeuppance for his pride, and&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* the **level of specification of the reptile** for which it gets mistaken.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*a) Identity of the protagonist*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ian Turner et al, in their work *Cinderella Dressed in Yella* (1978), report a variant current in Melbourne, Australia, between 1962 and 1973 featuring **&quot;Old King Cole&quot;**, who is also the protagonist in one of the best known rhymes in the 4/4 time which is widespread in this genre.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A version with **&quot;Good King Billy&quot;** is reported in Northern Ireland, which I have found online in a memorate and which is referred to in Hamish MacDonald's *The Gravy Star* (1999) and by Michael Rosen in his *Penguin Book of Childhood* (1995), dated to 1958.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other variants have &quot;**My cousin Billy**&quot;, &quot;**My Uncle Billy**&quot;, and &quot;**Buffalo Bill**&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*b) Length of his body part at the end of the rhyme*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;**Four foot four**&quot; is the most common end state, but versions have been recorded with &quot;**two foot foor**&quot; or &quot;**five foot four**&quot;. (Jonathan Blyth, *The Law Of The Playground: A Puerile and Disturbing Dictionary of Playground Insults and Games*, 2004.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*c) The reptile that the second party believes she sees*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In most recorded versions, the second party - whether she is described as the girl next door or as a neighbour - mistakes the protagonist's penis for a snake. But in her article &quot;The Subversive World of New Zealand Playground Rhymes&quot; (*Journal of Folklore Research* 44 [2-3], 2007), Janice Ackerley records a variant sung in New Zealand in which the third and fourth lines are &quot;I shot it with a sniper [sic] / 'Cos I thought it was a viper&quot;. (This is also the only variant I am aware of in which the respondent to the act of pride appears in the first person.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Published sources**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In addition to the five sources mentioned above, other published references to the rhyme appear in Martyn Hammersley and Peter Woods, ed., *Gender and Ethnicity in Schools: Ethnographic Accounts* (1993); Iona Opie, *The Singing Game* (1998); Eve Bearne and Victor Watson, *Where Texts and Children's Meet* (1999); Catherine Fox, *Love for the Lost* (2015); and Anthony McGowan, *The Art of Failing: Notes from the Underdog* (2017).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13407" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3368" RevisionGUID="d4fdb1f3-5375-4cdb-abab-81cd2ad1dfb2" CreationDate="2018-02-18T16:32:03.943" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="added 38 characters in body" Text="This orally transmitted children's rhyme has been recorded in many memorates and is discussed in the anthropological literature about this genre of folklore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Historic-geographic spread**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is known to have been current **in the late 1950s and up until the 1970s**, and it was sung in places that include&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* **Britain** (England, Scotland, and Northern Ireland) and&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* **the Antipodes** (Australia and New Zealand).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Variants**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Variations have been reported in&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* the **identity of the unfortunate protagonist**,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* the **final length of his organ** once he has received the arguably rather disproportionate comeuppance for his pride, and&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* the **level of specification of the reptile** for which it gets mistaken.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*a) Identity of the protagonist*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ian Turner et al, in their work *Cinderella Dressed in Yella* (1978), report a variant current in Melbourne, Australia, between 1962 and 1973 featuring **&quot;Old King Cole&quot;**, who is also the protagonist in one of the best known rhymes in the 4/4 time which is widespread in this genre.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A version with **&quot;Good King Billy&quot;** is reported in Northern Ireland, which I have found online in a memorate and which is referred to in Hamish MacDonald's *The Gravy Star* (1999) and by Michael Rosen in his *Penguin Book of Childhood* (1995), dated to 1958.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other variants have &quot;**My cousin Billy**&quot;, &quot;**My Uncle Billy**&quot;, and &quot;**Buffalo Bill**&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*b) Length of his body part at the end of the rhyme*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;**Four foot four**&quot; is the most common end state, but versions have been recorded with &quot;**two foot foor**&quot; or &quot;**five foot four**&quot;. (Jonathan Blyth, *The Law Of The Playground: A Puerile and Disturbing Dictionary of Playground Insults and Games*, 2004.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*c) The reptile that the second party believes she sees*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In most recorded versions, the second party - whether she is described as the girl next door or as a neighbour - mistakes the protagonist's penis for a generic **snake**. But in her article &quot;The Subversive World of New Zealand Playground Rhymes&quot; (*Journal of Folklore Research* 44 [2-3], 2007), Janice Ackerley records a variant in which it is specifically imagined as a **viper**, the third and fourth lines being &quot;I shot it with a sniper [sic] / 'Cos I thought it was a viper&quot;. (This is also the only variant I am aware of in which the respondent to the act of pride appears in the first person.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Published sources**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In addition to the five sources mentioned above, other published references to the rhyme appear in Martyn Hammersley and Peter Woods, ed., *Gender and Ethnicity in Schools: Ethnographic Accounts* (1993); Iona Opie, *The Singing Game* (1998); Eve Bearne and Victor Watson, *Where Texts and Children's Meet* (1999); Catherine Fox, *Love for the Lost* (2015); and Anthony McGowan, *The Art of Failing: Notes from the Underdog* (2017).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13408" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3367" RevisionGUID="101de9fe-0e44-4254-8f69-774dfc7aa8ad" CreationDate="2018-02-18T23:40:06.530" UserId="-1" Comment="removed &quot;code&quot;" Text="Around the turn of the 1970s a rhyme was sung by small children in southern England:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;My friend Billy had a 10-foot willy.  &#xD;&#xA;He showed it to the girl next door (or: He put it through the neighbour's door).  &#xD;&#xA;She thought it was a snake,  &#xD;&#xA;Hit it with a rake,  &#xD;&#xA;And now it's only four foot four&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What was its historic-geographic spread and what were some of its variants?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13409" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3367" RevisionGUID="101de9fe-0e44-4254-8f69-774dfc7aa8ad" CreationDate="2018-02-18T23:40:06.530" Comment="Proposed by anonymous approved by 1618 edit id of 529" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13410" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3369" RevisionGUID="6f3f0cf9-d116-475e-a15a-bf0f7bf17b05" CreationDate="2018-02-19T01:56:02.830" UserId="4722" Text="Its more than possible, I know there are stories from the tribes of that event, the descriptions are too vivid. Just like its been proven that the Klamath kept the story of the formation of Crater lake, a 7000 year old event, the tribes of the Columbia kept stories of water that crested at the tops of mountains. That is not your average annual flood. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13415" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3371" RevisionGUID="90e6c5d2-0730-47a7-8aa8-f465714bc0c3" CreationDate="2018-02-19T22:53:24.017" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="The earliest published reference I have found to this belief is by **E C Nesbit's character Caroline in *The Wonderful Garden or The Three Cs*, 1911**:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;No, we must hide him, and wake him before they call us. I can always&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wake up if  I bang my head the right number of times on the pillow&#xD;&#xA;&gt; before I go to sleep.&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13416" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3372" RevisionGUID="a64bdb93-b9d9-4a7d-ab97-a7c509225192" CreationDate="2018-02-19T23:41:24.360" UserId="4271" Text="Back in September, I was reading a series called, &quot;The Secrets of the Immortal Nicholas Flamel,&quot; by Michael Scott. One of the main characters was The Warrior Maiden, Scathach. In this series, she had a twin sister, Aofie, and an unnamed brother.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who are they in mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13417" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3372" RevisionGUID="a64bdb93-b9d9-4a7d-ab97-a7c509225192" CreationDate="2018-02-19T23:41:24.360" UserId="4271" Text="Who was Scathach and Aofie?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13418" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3372" RevisionGUID="a64bdb93-b9d9-4a7d-ab97-a7c509225192" CreationDate="2018-02-19T23:41:24.360" UserId="4271" Text="|myth-identification|celtic|irish|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13419" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3373" RevisionGUID="fc0de2ee-9272-4ce7-8fc2-8f20dfcc0487" CreationDate="2018-02-20T01:16:21.570" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="What is the world's oldest joke? I mean the earliest known story, set of affairs, or action that people spread to other people in order to cause the receivers to be amused." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13420" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3373" RevisionGUID="fc0de2ee-9272-4ce7-8fc2-8f20dfcc0487" CreationDate="2018-02-20T01:16:21.570" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="What is the world's oldest joke?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13421" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3373" RevisionGUID="fc0de2ee-9272-4ce7-8fc2-8f20dfcc0487" CreationDate="2018-02-20T01:16:21.570" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13422" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3374" RevisionGUID="1eb40545-2740-4a2b-92e7-4c3872d7f712" CreationDate="2018-02-20T02:20:57.767" UserDisplayName="user4244" Text="According to [Paul McDonald at the University of Wolverhampton][1], it's this 3900-year-old one, from 1900BC in Sumeria:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Something which has never occurred since time immemorial: a young&#xD;&#xA;&gt; woman did not fart in her husband’s lap.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(I don't get it either!)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-joke-odd/worlds-oldest-joke-traced-back-to-1900-bc-idUSKUA14785120080801" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13424" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3376" RevisionGUID="135d862f-9054-4eb2-9777-6ba9ea09bcbc" CreationDate="2018-02-20T02:29:32.337" UserId="4271" Text="Is there an instance in which a Greek(or related, Roman, Trojan...) would bow to a god if they appeared? I would think not.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Iliad&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Athena appears to Achilles, did not bow.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Athena appears to Odysseus, did not bow(runs to the ships).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ares.. appears to Diomedes, did not bow(they fought).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollo appears to Diomedes, did not bow(tried to fight the god).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aphrodite appears to Helen, did not bow(sat on bed crying and angered the goddess).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odysessy&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hermes to Odysseus, did not bow(sat on beach crying).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Athena to Odysseus, did not bow(gets angry with the goddess).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Athena(in guise of a friend) to Telemachus(and the 100+ suitors and company), did not bow(does not really count because Telemachus didn't know he was a goddess).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aeneid&#xD;&#xA;Venus to Aeneas, did not bow(don't play with me like that mother).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But, in all these instances, the mortal was a favorite of the god(dess). So, I am looking for an instance in which a mortal lowers themselves as a sign of respect toward a dog/goddess. Does one exist?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13425" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3376" RevisionGUID="135d862f-9054-4eb2-9777-6ba9ea09bcbc" CreationDate="2018-02-20T02:29:32.337" UserId="4271" Text="Did Greeks bow to their gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13426" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3376" RevisionGUID="135d862f-9054-4eb2-9777-6ba9ea09bcbc" CreationDate="2018-02-20T02:29:32.337" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|roman|odyssey|iliad|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13428" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3376" RevisionGUID="939363ac-a0f0-4c14-b824-ba215a25998c" CreationDate="2018-02-20T08:18:45.110" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="the god is not the dog" Text="Is there an instance in which a Greek(or related, Roman, Trojan...) would bow to a god if they appeared? I would think not.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Iliad&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Athena appears to Achilles, did not bow.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Athena appears to Odysseus, did not bow(runs to the ships).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ares.. appears to Diomedes, did not bow(they fought).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollo appears to Diomedes, did not bow(tried to fight the god).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aphrodite appears to Helen, did not bow(sat on bed crying and angered the goddess).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odysessy&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hermes to Odysseus, did not bow(sat on beach crying).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Athena to Odysseus, did not bow(gets angry with the goddess).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Athena(in guise of a friend) to Telemachus(and the 100+ suitors and company), did not bow(does not really count because Telemachus didn't know he was a goddess).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aeneid&#xD;&#xA;Venus to Aeneas, did not bow(don't play with me like that mother).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But, in all these instances, the mortal was a favorite of the god/goddess. So, I am looking for an instance in which a mortal lowers themselves as a sign of respect toward a god/goddess. Does one exist?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13429" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3376" RevisionGUID="939363ac-a0f0-4c14-b824-ba215a25998c" CreationDate="2018-02-20T08:18:45.110" Comment="Proposed by 4660 approved by -1 edit id of 530" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13430" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3376" RevisionGUID="620bf7b5-6e49-4f3b-844b-744f2046c4d6" CreationDate="2018-02-20T08:18:45.110" UserId="57" Comment="the god is not the dog" Text="Is there an instance in which a Greek (or related, Roman, Trojan...) would bow to a god if they appeared? I would think not.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Iliad*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Athena appears to Achilles, did not bow.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Athena appears to Odysseus, did not bow (runs to the ships).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Ares.. appears to Diomedes, did not bow (they fought).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Apollo appears to Diomedes, did not bow (tried to fight the god).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Aphrodite appears to Helen, did not bow (sat on bed crying and angered the goddess).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Odyssey*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Hermes to Odysseus did not bow (sat on the beach crying).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Athena to Odysseus did not bow (gets angry with the goddess).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Athena (in the guise of a friend) to Telemachus (and the 100+ suitors and company), did not bow (does not really count because Telemachus didn't know he was a goddess).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Aeneid*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Venus to Aeneas did not bow (don't play with me like that mother).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But, in all these instances, the mortal was a favorite of the god/goddess. So, I am looking for an instance in which a mortal lowers themselves as a sign of respect for a god/goddess. Does one exist?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13432" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="980" RevisionGUID="46a8eee8-f577-4a74-9954-ec1b7df6fe34" CreationDate="2018-02-20T08:24:49.140" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="13433" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3372" RevisionGUID="d55fe84f-ce87-4e14-b139-e7a91c9439df" CreationDate="2018-02-20T10:58:02.260" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|celtic|irish|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13434" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3377" RevisionGUID="f8ebce15-b471-486f-a50b-4ea33d3bed93" CreationDate="2018-02-20T12:57:07.080" UserId="2807" Text="I suppose there have been academic attempts to identify all the places mentioned in the Odyssey by Homer, specially after Heinrich Schliemann found Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would like to know if there's any kind of consensus about the route Odysseus took. I've found some random images in Google ([Image 1][1], [Image 2][2]) but they differ quite a bit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I remember watching a TV doc many years ago putting in doubt that modern Ithaca was the Homeric one, so not sure if this is possible without discussion (and against the rules).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;TV doc was probably based on [Odysseus Unbound][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sfmission.com/gallery_files/site_pics/Malta/Art_and_History/Calypso_and_Odysseus/Route_Odysseus.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://s2.thingpic.com/images/w4/jJJ3fDQUzpbjj8MHaUfPZfqA.jpeg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odysseus_Unbound" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13435" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3377" RevisionGUID="f8ebce15-b471-486f-a50b-4ea33d3bed93" CreationDate="2018-02-20T12:57:07.080" UserId="2807" Text="Identifying the places in the Odyssey" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13436" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3377" RevisionGUID="f8ebce15-b471-486f-a50b-4ea33d3bed93" CreationDate="2018-02-20T12:57:07.080" UserId="2807" Text="|odyssey|homer|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13437" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3378" RevisionGUID="e79f8e7a-e9b1-4a85-bd7d-7d93c8543a74" CreationDate="2018-02-20T15:49:20.563" UserId="4271" Text="The original meaning(and spelling) of daemon was [inferior god][1](lesser deity). Kind of like titan meaning [Stretchers or Strainers][2]. Daemones are also called personified spirits.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Examples-&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Agathodaemon is called a daemon.&#xD;&#xA; - Cathodaemon is called a daemon. &#xD;&#xA; - Sophrosyne is called a goddess.&#xD;&#xA; - Mnemosyne is called a goddess.&#xD;&#xA; - Phobos and Demos are called both.&#xD;&#xA; - Pseudologus is called a deamon.&#xD;&#xA; - Nike is called a goddess.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What are some called one but not the other?&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://daemonpage.com/socrates-daimon.php&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://mythagora.com/bios/ouranos.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13438" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3378" RevisionGUID="e79f8e7a-e9b1-4a85-bd7d-7d93c8543a74" CreationDate="2018-02-20T15:49:20.563" UserId="4271" Text="Why are some daemones not labeled as gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13439" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3378" RevisionGUID="e79f8e7a-e9b1-4a85-bd7d-7d93c8543a74" CreationDate="2018-02-20T15:49:20.563" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|daemon|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13440" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3379" RevisionGUID="c7876b20-9ea1-4d7d-9317-09aba3c5112a" CreationDate="2018-02-20T18:34:12.660" UserId="4754" Text="There are a number of witty varieties of this verse. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The earliest reference I can find is from the periodical The Atlantic Monthly 1894 (v74 p738) which quotes - &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; To the astonishment of Mr. Foster, and perhaps to others of the party&#xD;&#xA;&gt; inside, though all were too good-natured to laugh, the carol certainly&#xD;&#xA;&gt; began : — “While shepherds washed their frocks by night, All seated on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the ground,” and then went on in stricter accordance with the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hymn-book. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The periodical &quot;Moderator-Topics&quot; [sic] 1902 v. 23 p. 399 has:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One little fellow, on being asked what he wished sung, replied: “While&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shepherds wash their socks by night.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A further twist in 1908:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A ram's head fixed upon a Guy was burnt on Fifth of November in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [eighteen] 'seventies and 'eighties to the chorus of “Wild Shepherds watch their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; flocks by night” for offences which had outraged the moral sense of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the inhabitants.[1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I suspect it's much earlier though, and probably occurred to people the first time they heard it!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. &quot;Richmondshire: An Account of Its History and Antiquities, Characters and Customs, Legendary Lore, and Natural History, Being a Companion Volume to The Vale of Mowbray&quot; p. 444&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13448" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3377" RevisionGUID="f9ac1a05-8f7d-4166-a5d7-70fc8e5a42ec" CreationDate="2018-02-21T13:34:11.823" UserId="4105" Comment="added greek tag" Text="|greek|odyssey|homer|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13449" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3377" RevisionGUID="f9ac1a05-8f7d-4166-a5d7-70fc8e5a42ec" CreationDate="2018-02-21T13:34:11.823" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 2807 edit id of 533" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13450" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3378" RevisionGUID="3163bd38-5d42-4be6-a81f-0456baf2f597" CreationDate="2018-02-21T13:46:01.650" UserId="4105" Comment="corrected spelling" Text="The original meaning (and spelling) of daemon was [inferior god][1] (lesser deity). Kind of like titan meaning [Stretchers or Strainers][2]. Daemones are also called personified spirits.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Examples:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Agathodaemon is called a daemon.&#xD;&#xA; - Cacodaemon is called a daemon. &#xD;&#xA; - Sophrosyne is called a goddess.&#xD;&#xA; - Mnemosyne is called a goddess.&#xD;&#xA; - Phobos and Demos are called both.&#xD;&#xA; - Pseudologos is called a deamon.&#xD;&#xA; - Nike is called a goddess.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What are some called one but not the other?&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://daemonpage.com/socrates-daimon.php&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://mythagora.com/bios/ouranos.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13451" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3378" RevisionGUID="3163bd38-5d42-4be6-a81f-0456baf2f597" CreationDate="2018-02-21T13:46:01.650" UserId="4105" Comment="corrected spelling" Text="Why are some daemons not labeled as gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13452" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3378" RevisionGUID="3163bd38-5d42-4be6-a81f-0456baf2f597" CreationDate="2018-02-21T13:46:01.650" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 4271 edit id of 532" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13453" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3382" RevisionGUID="b4a7a7b3-e3fa-44df-9663-18f49c4c5e8b" CreationDate="2018-02-21T14:09:28.937" UserId="4105" Text="In Book V of the Odyssey, [Ino][1] saves Odysseus from drowning by giving him a magic veil. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why? Ino is a water deity, I'd expect her to be aligned with Poseidon's wishes. What reason does she have to intervene in favor of the hero instead? Even Odysseus seems to be puzzled about this, and doesn't immediately accepts her help. He only uses the veil after Poseidon (ironically) makes it absolutely clear that there's no other option.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ino_(Greek_mythology)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13454" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3382" RevisionGUID="b4a7a7b3-e3fa-44df-9663-18f49c4c5e8b" CreationDate="2018-02-21T14:09:28.937" UserId="4105" Text="Why does Ino help Odysseus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13455" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3382" RevisionGUID="b4a7a7b3-e3fa-44df-9663-18f49c4c5e8b" CreationDate="2018-02-21T14:09:28.937" UserId="4105" Text="|greek|odyssey|homer|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13456" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3361" RevisionGUID="e464d812-d4bb-4890-979e-fed1b1b1a97e" CreationDate="2018-02-21T14:27:38.907" UserId="4105" Comment="blockquote instead of code formatting" Text="A popular Christmas carol runs&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While shepherds watch'd their flocks by night,  &#xD;&#xA;All seated on the ground,  &#xD;&#xA;The angel of the Lord came down,  &#xD;&#xA;And glory shone around  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;in its first verse. It was recorded in 1700 and has been attributed to Nahum Tate, the Irish poet who was England's Poet Laureate at that time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This has been followed by a number of children's parody versions, including one which runs&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While shepherds washed their socks by night,  &#xD;&#xA;And hung them on the line,  &#xD;&#xA;The angel of the Lord came down,  &#xD;&#xA;And said &quot;Those socks are mine!&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When was this version first sung and recorded?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13457" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3361" RevisionGUID="e464d812-d4bb-4890-979e-fed1b1b1a97e" CreationDate="2018-02-21T14:27:38.907" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 57 edit id of 531" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13458" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1987" RevisionGUID="166cff53-f295-466e-94fa-972d132ccf20" CreationDate="2018-02-21T16:09:38.590" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="13464" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3384" RevisionGUID="83090b9a-6726-4d72-a264-a9ca60f48a4d" CreationDate="2018-02-21T19:22:02.410" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13465" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3384" RevisionGUID="83090b9a-6726-4d72-a264-a9ca60f48a4d" CreationDate="2018-02-21T19:22:02.410" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13466" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3385" RevisionGUID="aa1baf8a-983a-4638-a258-a3950c4553d7" CreationDate="2018-02-21T19:22:02.410" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13467" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3385" RevisionGUID="aa1baf8a-983a-4638-a258-a3950c4553d7" CreationDate="2018-02-21T19:22:02.410" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13468" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3386" RevisionGUID="36f1140c-6a9e-4dcb-992f-603aea824c2b" CreationDate="2018-02-21T19:28:55.760" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13469" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3386" RevisionGUID="36f1140c-6a9e-4dcb-992f-603aea824c2b" CreationDate="2018-02-21T19:28:55.760" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13470" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3387" RevisionGUID="93516f63-3fab-44ee-b0b3-8a01dff67a13" CreationDate="2018-02-21T19:28:55.760" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13471" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3387" RevisionGUID="93516f63-3fab-44ee-b0b3-8a01dff67a13" CreationDate="2018-02-21T19:28:55.760" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13476" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3354" RevisionGUID="cb33be51-0ab8-4e87-9437-6fb4b228f43b" CreationDate="2018-02-21T21:36:33.053" UserId="2892" Comment="added 126 characters in body" Text="It's interesting that the most common epithet of Zeus in Greek literature is not the form of the name beginning in &quot;z&quot;, but the form equivalent to [*Dios*](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D*dio%2Fs2).  (This is the same word root for god in the Romance languages of Europe.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You see the word as an adjective often in phrases like  καὶ δῖος Ἀχιλλεύς (*kai dios Achilleus*) &quot;godlike Achilles&quot;, and even other deities might be described as divine (lower-case d), but only Zeus himself is referred to as Δῖος, as in &quot;God&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some have linked the &quot;seus&quot; part of Jesus' name to Zeus, arguing that his original name was Joshua (ישוע [*Yeshua*][1]).  All are &quot;King of Heaven&quot; for their respective heavens, whether Olympus, Asgard or the Christian heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Joseph Campbell might refer to Odin, Zeus and the Lord of Hosts as &quot;sky fathers&quot;, and the depictions of all deities in art have certain characteristics such as the beard.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is no accident as Italian Renaissance art in particular was heavily influenced by Classical mythology at the peak of the power of the Catholic Church.  You can even find a direct merging of the two cosmologies in [Dante][2]'s Inferno, which itself influences the Christian conception of the universe second only probably to the bible itself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The main distinction I see is that the polytheistic versions of these kings of heaven were only nigh-omniscient and nigh-omnipotent.  *(The kings of their respective hills, but inferior to the &quot;monotheistic&quot; conception.)* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*PS: I found your question clear and understood exactly what you are asking.  It's not an uncommon question, and my own professors addressed it when I was a Classics student.  (Sorry the question got closed, but at least I was able to sneak an answer before it got ganged on :)*&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.vision.org/visionmedia/religion-and-spirituality-dante-alighieri/64177.aspx" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13478" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3118" RevisionGUID="16c73204-8bd4-4deb-a9f3-76431e6b95fc" CreationDate="2018-02-22T04:22:54.787" UserId="31" Comment="removed fluff at the beginning and fix grammar" Text="Are there any accepted religions that have never developed a concept for where individuals go when they die? (i.e. Heaven/Hell, Valhalla, reincarnation, etc.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I only ask because I believe this to be the focal point of most religions: People's belief centering around how they can gain eternal life." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13479" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3118" RevisionGUID="16c73204-8bd4-4deb-a9f3-76431e6b95fc" CreationDate="2018-02-22T04:22:54.787" Comment="Proposed by 31 approved by 1241, 2682 edit id of 536" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13490" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2169" RevisionGUID="15288425-7681-4768-86d3-99047e113ff1" CreationDate="2018-02-22T12:25:36.077" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|folkloristics|terminology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13492" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3389" RevisionGUID="e513468f-1199-4425-b95b-859c287e915d" CreationDate="2018-02-22T14:39:04.583" UserId="57" Text="The pictured black-figured lekythos features Hermes (in his role as a [psychopomp][1]), weighing the souls of Achilles and a Trojan warrior (Memnon or Hector):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Pottery: black-figured lekythos: the Weighing of Souls.][2]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What I find particularly interesting in the scene is the two winged male figures on the scales. According to the [British Museum's description of the lekythos][4], they represent the souls of heroes: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pottery: black-figured lekythos: the Weighing of Souls. Design black on drab ground, with purple accessories. On the shoulder, lotus-buds; on the body, above, an ivy-wreath. Contest of Achilles and Memnon (or Hector): On either side is a warrior, bearded and fully armed, thrusting with spear, each having a short chiton with purple spots; the one on the left has a Boeotian shield, the other has the device of a crab (?). In the centre Hermes Pyschopompos to right, bearded, with petasos, short chiton and chlamys, both with purple spots, and endromides, holds out a pair of scales in left hand, each scale containing a small winged male figure, representing the souls of the two heroes. In the field, imitation inscriptions.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What do we know about these figures? Do they have names, and do they appear elsewhere in Greek mythology? Could they perhaps be [Keres][5], even though those are always described as female?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopomp&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/N4Y5U.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details/collection_image_gallery.aspx?partid=1&amp;assetid=530788001&amp;objectid=459047&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?assetId=530786001&amp;objectId=459047&amp;partId=1&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keres_(mythology)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13493" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3389" RevisionGUID="e513468f-1199-4425-b95b-859c287e915d" CreationDate="2018-02-22T14:39:04.583" UserId="57" Text="What do we know about the winged male figures representing the souls of warriors in the weighing of souls?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13494" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3389" RevisionGUID="e513468f-1199-4425-b95b-859c287e915d" CreationDate="2018-02-22T14:39:04.583" UserId="57" Text="|greek|iconography|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13495" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3389" RevisionGUID="5f6a1242-bee6-4836-87ac-c77ea0c8cec4" CreationDate="2018-02-22T14:57:51.273" UserId="57" Comment="added 105 characters in body" Text="The pictured black-figured lekythos features Hermes (in his role as a [psychopomp][1]), weighing the souls of Achilles and a Trojan warrior (Memnon or Hector):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Pottery: black-figured lekythos: the Weighing of Souls.][2]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What I find particularly interesting in the scene is the two winged male figures on the scales. According to the [British Museum's description of the lekythos][4], they represent the souls of heroes: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pottery: black-figured lekythos: the Weighing of Souls. Design black on drab ground, with purple accessories. On the shoulder, lotus-buds; on the body, above, an ivy-wreath. Contest of Achilles and Memnon (or Hector): On either side is a warrior, bearded and fully armed, thrusting with spear, each having a short chiton with purple spots; the one on the left has a Boeotian shield, the other has the device of a crab (?). In the centre Hermes Pyschopompos to right, bearded, with petasos, short chiton and chlamys, both with purple spots, and endromides, holds out a pair of scales in left hand, each scale containing a small winged male figure, representing the souls of the two heroes. In the field, imitation inscriptions.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From what I understand, [Keres][5] would be the more appropriate choice to symbolize the souls of the warriors in such a scene. However, all sources I know describe Keres as female, not male. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What are these figures then? Do they have names, and do they appear elsewhere in Greek mythology? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopomp&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/N4Y5U.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details/collection_image_gallery.aspx?partid=1&amp;assetid=530788001&amp;objectid=459047&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?assetId=530786001&amp;objectId=459047&amp;partId=1&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keres_(mythology)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13496" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3389" RevisionGUID="532d60a2-3104-4618-83d7-ad3dbc87c7be" CreationDate="2018-02-22T15:21:04.313" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 5 characters in body" Text="The pictured black-figured lekythos features Hermes (in his role as a [psychopomp][1]), weighing the souls of Achilles and a Trojan warrior (Memnon or Hector):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Pottery: black-figured lekythos: the Weighing of Souls.][2]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What I find particularly interesting in the scene is the two winged male figures on the scales. According to the [British Museum's description of the lekythos][4], they represent the souls of heroes: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pottery: black-figured lekythos: the Weighing of Souls. Design black on drab ground, with purple accessories. On the shoulder, lotus-buds; on the body, above, an ivy-wreath. Contest of Achilles and Memnon (or Hector): On either side is a warrior, bearded and fully armed, thrusting with spear, each having a short chiton with purple spots; the one on the left has a Boeotian shield, the other has the device of a crab (?). In the centre Hermes Pyschopompos to right, bearded, with petasos, short chiton and chlamys, both with purple spots, and endromides, holds out a pair of scales in left hand, each scale containing a small winged male figure, representing the souls of the two heroes. In the field, imitation inscriptions.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From what I understand, [Keres][5] would be the more obvious choice to symbolize the souls of the warriors in such a scene. However, all sources I know describe them as female, not male. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What are these figures then? Do they have names, and do they appear elsewhere in Greek mythology? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopomp&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/N4Y5U.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details/collection_image_gallery.aspx?partid=1&amp;assetid=530788001&amp;objectid=459047&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?assetId=530786001&amp;objectId=459047&amp;partId=1&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keres_(mythology)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13497" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3379" RevisionGUID="2ebb714c-99a7-473e-a9b0-e1f0c13bca82" CreationDate="2018-02-22T16:02:49.850" UserId="4754" Comment="added 1591 characters in body" Text="There are a number of witty varieties of this verse. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The earliest reference I can find is from the periodical The Atlantic Monthly 1894 (v74 p738) which quotes - &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; To the astonishment of Mr. Foster, and perhaps to others of the party&#xD;&#xA;&gt; inside, though all were too good-natured to laugh, the carol certainly&#xD;&#xA;&gt; began : — “While shepherds washed their frocks by night, All seated on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the ground,” and then went on in stricter accordance with the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hymn-book. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The periodical &quot;Moderator-Topics&quot; [sic] 1902 v. 23 p. 399 has:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One little fellow, on being asked what he wished sung, replied: “While&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shepherds wash their socks by night.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A further twist in 1908:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A ram's head fixed upon a Guy was burnt on Fifth of November in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [eighteen] 'seventies and 'eighties to the chorus of “Wild Shepherds watch their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; flocks by night” for offences which had outraged the moral sense of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the inhabitants.[1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I suspect it's much earlier though, and probably occurred to people the first time they heard it!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Edit** - as a follow up (because you asked for the second pair of lines too) - we have The Homestead magazine 1923&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As shepherds washed their socks by night&#xD;&#xA;&gt; all seated round the tub,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the angel of the Lord came down  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And taught them how to scrub.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By the 1940s we find &quot;the angel of the Lord&quot; has turned into &quot;a bar of Sunlight soap&quot;, or various other varieties of soap depending on your locale.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Your version dates back at least to the 1960s in the UK - &quot;The Lore of the Playground - 100 years of children's games, rhymes and traditions&quot; records two varieties similar to yours in Newcastle -&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While shepherds washed their socks by night &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Omo bright and blue &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The angel of the Lord came down &#xD;&#xA;&gt; and said: &quot;Use Daz, it's new!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While shepherds washed their socks by night &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Persil sixty-nine &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The angel of the Lord came down &#xD;&#xA;&gt; and said: &quot;Those socks are mine!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other British variations all recorded in the 1960s include&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While shepherds watched their flocks by night   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; All eating fish and chips,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Angel of the Lord came down &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And charged them two-and-six.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;or&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While shepherds watched their turnip tops &#xD;&#xA;&gt; All boiling in the pot, &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Angel of the Lord came down &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And scoffed the blooming lot.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;or&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While shepherds watched their flocks by night &#xD;&#xA;&gt; All watching ITV,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Angel of the Lord came down &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And switched to BBC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;or&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While shepherds watched their stew by night,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; All bubbling in the pot,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A lump of soot came tumbling down &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And spoilt the blooming lot.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. &quot;Richmondshire: An Account of Its History and Antiquities, Characters and Customs, Legendary Lore, and Natural History, Being a Companion Volume to The Vale of Mowbray&quot; p. 444&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13498" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3379" RevisionGUID="dda66b81-f2b3-4438-a92b-6f8c043a129f" CreationDate="2018-02-22T16:07:56.490" UserId="4754" Comment="type, explanation" Text="There are a number of witty varieties of this verse. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The earliest reference I can find is from the periodical The Atlantic Monthly 1894 (v74 p738) which quotes - &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; To the astonishment of Mr. Foster, and perhaps to others of the party&#xD;&#xA;&gt; inside, though all were too good-natured to laugh, the carol certainly&#xD;&#xA;&gt; began : — “While shepherds washed their frocks by night, All seated on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the ground,” and then went on in stricter accordance with the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hymn-book. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The periodical &quot;Moderator-Topics&quot; [sic] 1902 v. 23 p. 399 has:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One little fellow, on being asked what he wished sung, replied: “While&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shepherds wash their socks by night.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A further twist in 1908:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A ram's head fixed upon a Guy was burnt on Fifth of November in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [eighteen] 'seventies and 'eighties to the chorus of “Wild Shepherds watch their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; flocks by night” for offences which had outraged the moral sense of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the inhabitants.[1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I suspect it's much earlier though, and probably occurred to people the first time they heard it!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Edit** - as a follow up (because you asked for the second pair of lines too) - we have The Homestead magazine 1923&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; As shepherds washed their socks by night   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; all seated round the tub,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; the angel of the Lord came down    &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And taught them how to scrub.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By the 1940s we find &quot;the angel of the Lord&quot; has turned into &quot;a bar of Sunlight soap&quot;, or various other varieties of soap depending on your locale.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The washing of socks is pleasing because is so closely matches the original. And so we find by the 1960 the story is expanded similar to your version. In the UK &quot;The Lore of the Playground - 100 years of children's games, rhymes and traditions&quot; records two varieties similar to yours in Newcastle, expanding on the washing theme (Persil, Daz and Omo are all brands of washing powder) -&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While shepherds washed their socks by night   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Omo bright and blue   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The angel of the Lord came down   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; and said: &quot;Use Daz, it's new!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While shepherds washed their socks by night   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Persil sixty-nine   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The angel of the Lord came down   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; and said: &quot;Those socks are mine!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other non-washing related British variations are recorded in the 1960s including - &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While shepherds watched their flocks by night   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; All eating fish and chips,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Angel of the Lord came down   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And charged them two-and-six.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;or&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While shepherds watched their turnip tops   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; All boiling in the pot,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Angel of the Lord came down   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And scoffed the blooming lot.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;or&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While shepherds watched their flocks by night   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; All watching ITV,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Angel of the Lord came down    &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And switched to BBC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;or&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While shepherds watched their stew by night,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; All bubbling in the pot,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; A lump of soot came tumbling down   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And spoilt the blooming lot.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. &quot;Richmondshire: An Account of Its History and Antiquities, Characters and Customs, Legendary Lore, and Natural History, Being a Companion Volume to The Vale of Mowbray&quot; p. 444&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13503" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3385" RevisionGUID="814fed07-ad96-4c7a-a180-e15239b30929" CreationDate="2018-02-22T23:18:11.917" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="added 274 characters in body" Text="The word &quot;runa&quot; means &quot;mystery&quot;. Runes are magical and alphabetic characters that used to be carved on the rocks or on the tree, by them were decorated weapons, utensils, various objects, wrote spells over the entrance to the house and on the noses of ships. III century ad." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13504" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3385" RevisionGUID="814fed07-ad96-4c7a-a180-e15239b30929" CreationDate="2018-02-22T23:18:11.917" Comment="Proposed by 4660 approved by 1241, 967 edit id of 534" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13505" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3387" RevisionGUID="e4a94941-8759-4d0f-a0ef-30a4b951f051" CreationDate="2018-02-22T23:18:17.860" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="added 170 characters in body" Text="The character of Slavic mythology and folklore (especially fairy tales) of the Slavic peoples. Ugly old woman who owns the magical objects and endowed with magical power." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13506" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3387" RevisionGUID="e4a94941-8759-4d0f-a0ef-30a4b951f051" CreationDate="2018-02-22T23:18:17.860" Comment="Proposed by 4660 approved by 1241, 967 edit id of 535" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13508" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3390" RevisionGUID="0e96080c-f8f0-4b02-ae8e-ff545701e0f5" CreationDate="2018-02-23T05:48:47.273" UserId="4565" Text="Most of the &quot;new identifications&quot; are quite fanciful. Most scholars agree that by and large the places described in the *Odyssey* are imagined. Ogygia, for example, is squarely within the realm of myth. No sailor could expect to actually sail to the Phaiakians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even with places like Ithaca, which were identified even in antiquity, we have to remember that poets did not do research on what the places looked like, nor could they. They relied on memory, sometimes their own, sometimes from oral tradition, and mistakes creep in. Nothing will match exactly. And why should it? It's a story, not actual history. The events it purports to describe take place hundreds of years before it was actually written down, and it will be another hundred years before the ancients tried identifying.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And identify they did! Once Homer took on a canonical status in Greek society, and after the Greeks started truly mapping the Mediterranean, some of them attempted to see Odysseus' purely mythical lands (like the island of the Cyclopes) as real life places. The Cyclopes' island became Sicily, Scylla and Charybdis became the Straits of Messine, because Italy and Sicily were so close together.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thing is, Homer probably had neither in mind. Homer likely lived in a time when these places were just getting settled. If anything, Homer is hearing about these far-off non-Greek lands where the natives might not be the friendliest. But to think he actually knew of any specific place is ludicrous in the extreme.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To summarize (from Heubeck, West, &amp; Hainsworth's excellent three-volume commentary):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Odysseus passes beyond the limits of reality after the storm off Cape Malea and finds himself in a sphere where heroic and human standards fail utterly. Beyond this frontier, which is fortunately impassable for most mortals, there are still seas, lands, and islands, and the points of the compass still apply, but in this different world there exist beings and forms that cannot be comprehended by the human mind. It is a fantastic and imaginary world, irrational and unreal, a realm of magic and sorcery which bears no relation to human experience, a world (we should particularly note) that was shunned by the early Greek epic and more recently by the poet of the *Iliad* himself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even in the mortal realm, the *Odyssey* is unfamiliar, it seems, with the Peloponnesus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I won't bore you with the details, but if you do end up tracking down Heubeck/West/Hainsworth, section II of the introduction of the Commentary (not to be confused with the General Introduction) lays it all out." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13509" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2967" RevisionGUID="6278e412-788a-4bef-b3ef-86bb6158a6f2" CreationDate="2018-02-23T06:26:05.473" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="13511" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2691" RevisionGUID="a67a91c0-0b50-4e57-94f9-61da8e4bc4d1" CreationDate="2018-02-23T10:10:45.667" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected spelling" Text="**Gaia, the personification and goddess of the Earth, was the first to foretell the future at Delphi, long before the birth of her great-grandson Apollon** [Apollo]. **She is also said to have been the first divinity to have a priestess serving as her spokesperson at this location.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the 100s AD, a writer named Pausanias went on a tour of Greece and collected information from all over the country into a 10-book travelogue entitled *Hellados Periegesis*, the “Description of Hellas [Greece].” From his travel through the region of Phokis and the neighbourhood of the Parnassos Glen, he gathered five different mainstream versions of the story about the origin of the oracle and temple of the city of Delphi, some of them differing on very minor points from others. These five accounts are listed below, referencing the information provided in [the last book of the *Periegesis*](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Pausanias10A.html#5).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going by chronological sequence, **the first explicit prophecy delivered at Delphi was a lyrical poem sang by Phemonoe, the first priestess of Apollon at Delphi.** (See #4, below, for further detail.) But there are references to earlier utterances being issued, with no mention, however, of what their content was. (This likewise is further elaborated below, *passim*.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The first explicit consultation of this oracle, chronologically, occurs before Apollon’s first arrival at Delphi, immediately after the Flood, when Deukalion** [Deucalion] **and Pyrrha come to the shrine.** (See #2 for more on this.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**1.	*The oracle was owned by Gaia, who appointed a local Oreiad (mountain-nymph) named Daphnis as her prophetess.*** (Aaron Atsma, of [The Theoi Project website](http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheDaphnis.html), speculates that Daphnis was Gaia’s daughter.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later on, at the end of this chapter (after listing the other four versions of the oracle’s origin), Pausanias says that, going by poetic tradition, Gaia had also appointed her offspring, the dragon Python, as the guardian of the oracle. After Apollon showed up and killed Python, the oracle was named after it Pythia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;**2.	*The oracle was owned by Gaia and Poseidon in common. Gaia uttered oracles herself while Poseidon had appointed Pyrkon as his mouthpiece.*** Pausanias mentions nothing further to explain who or what Pyrkon was, but in the commentary of his own [1898 translation of the *Description of Greece*](https://books.google.com/books?id=uqUNAAAAIAAJ&amp;pg=PA236#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false)&lt;sup&gt;✭&lt;/sup&gt;, Sir James George Frazer points out that, according to Hesychius, “At Delphi there were priests called *pyrkooi* (πυρκόοι) who divined by means of omens drawn from burnt sacrifice.” Citing Pausanias’ later mention of Poseidon’s altar in the temple of Apollon at Delphi, Frazer goes on to speculate that the *pyrkooi* may have served at this altar, perhaps tracing themselves back to this otherwise unattested Pyrkon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To me *Pyrkon* looks suspiciously similar to *Python*, and perhaps it is possible that this is a typo on Pausanias’s part, or that this account preserves a version of the Delphic dragon legend in which the guardian monster’s name is Pyrkon rather than Python. Either way, if Pyrkon and Python are somehow the same entity, then in this tradition the creature is associated with Poseidon rather than Gaia. (The mythos of the Delphic dragon is, *per se*, [a mixed-up mass of conflicting traditions](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1251/why-is-echidna-at-arima/2050#2050), some of which hint at Greek dragon lore set in other parts of the world.)&lt;sup&gt;✭✭&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pausanias then quotes a poem entitled *Eumolpia*, the work of a certain Musaeus son of Antiophemus, which says that Gaia gave her share of the shrine to her daughter Themis, who later bequeathed it to Apollon. As for Poseidon, he traded his part of the shrine with Apollon in exchange for the island of Kalaureia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the middle of this chapter Pausanias also says that Poseidon’s son Parnassos was the first person to build a city in this region. From him, Parnassos, the famous mountain upon which Delphi was built, derived its name. Parnassos was also the first to use the flights of birds as a soothsaying device.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One century before Pausanias, the Roman poet Ovid followed this tradition in his *Metamorphoses*, wherein Deukalion and Pyrrha survive the Flood by sheltering themselves in a wooden chest which floats on the flood-waters and eventually, at the end of the cataclysm, settles into the groove between the twin peaks of Mt Parnassos. The two survivor spouses then walk down the mountain to find upon its slopes the shrine of Themis, who happens to be their grandmother (Deukalion’s father Prometheus and Pyrrha’s father Epimetheus are Themis’s sons), in order to inquire of her how they might repeople the Earth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going by the narrative chronology of the myths of Greece and Rome, **this would be the first reference, in the timeline, to someone explicitly consulting the oracle at Delphi** (rather than the prophecies simply being issued in song [spontaneously rather than upon request, so it would seem]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his play *Eumenides*, the Greek tragedian Aeschylus (roughly four centuries prior to Ovid) portrays Gaia as the first deity to give oracles at Delphi. In *Prometheus Bound*, another play of Aeschylus, the Titan Prometheus says that his mother, who would frequently reveal the future to him, has many names, two of which are Themis and Gaia. This could provide a way to combine this version with #1, in which there is no mention of Themis: there would not need to be such a mention if she is actually just a form of Gaia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover in *Eumenides*, there is an owner of the oracle in between Themis and Apollon. Themis gives her share of the oracle to her sister Phoibe [Phoebe], who then gives it as a birthday present to her grandson Apollon, who is also named Phoibos [Phoebus] in her honour.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are yet two more variants of this tradition, as pointed out by Frazer:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to Euripides (*Iphig. in Taur.* 1259 *sqq.*) Apollo&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dismissed Themis and took her place at the oracle; but Earth, to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; avenge the wrong done her daughter, sent dreams which disturbed and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; confused the persons who consulted the oracle, till Zeus, at the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; entreaty of Apollo, compelled her to desist. Some thought that Apollo&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and Themis had founded the oracle jointly (Strabo, ix. p. 422).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whatever the case, Deukalion and Pyrrha arrived at Delphi during Themis’s tenure thereat, and if this goddess was operating in conjunction with any other deity at the time, nonetheless she specifically is the one who was consulted, probably on account of the couple’s strong familial connection with her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Deukalion and Pyrrha had a daughter named Melantho, who was violated by Poseidon. She bore the sea-god a son named Delphos who, when he had grown up, built the city of Delphi, to which he gave his name. In *Eumenides*, Apollon first arrives at Delphi while Delphos is ruling the city. Going by most other accounts, Delphos is a son of Apollon by a different woman.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;✭ Pausanias's *Description of Greece* Translated with a Commentary by J.G. Frazer, in Six Volumes.   &#xD;&#xA;1898. MacMillan &amp; Co. Ltd, London (UK) and The MacMillan Company, New York (USA).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;✭✭DukeZhou [a fellow Mythology StackExchange user] has pointed out to me that Pyrkon's name could possibly be translated &quot;Fire-Cone,&quot; from *pŷr*, &quot;fire&quot; + *kônos*, &quot;[pine-]cone,&quot; which could have some potentially interesting implications as the designation of a prophet or priest (who might also perhaps be a terrifying dragon).&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**3.	*Shepherds feeding their flocks** (consisting primarily of goats, it seems) **inhaled the subterraneous vapour at the site and began to prophesy the words of Apollon.*** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A variant version of this tradition, however, has it that it is *the goats* that were being herded which, technically, were the first prophets here (not of Apollon but of the more ancient Gaia), as Frazer further elaborates:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The story of the discovery of the Delphic oracle, as told by Diodorus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (xvi. 26), is this. On the spot afterwards occupied by the inmost&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shrine (*adytum*) of the sanctuary there was a chasm in the ground. A&#xD;&#xA;&gt; flock of goats was browsing near the chasm, and each goat as it&#xD;&#xA;&gt; approached the chasm began to skip and utter unwonted sounds. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; goatherd, observing this with surprise, went up to the hole, was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; affected in the same way as his goats, and began to prophesy. The fame&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of this was spread abroad, many people came to the chasm and fell into&#xD;&#xA;&gt; prophetic ecstasy. So the place was deemed an oracle of Earth. At last&#xD;&#xA;&gt; when many persons, in the height of their frenzy, had leaped into the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hole and disappeared, the neighbours resolved to appoint one woman to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the office of prophetess, and in order that she might receive the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; prophetic influence and give the oracles in safety, they devised a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; three-legged machine or tripod, which she mounted when she was about&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to prophesy. The oracular chasm is described by Strabo (ix. p. 419) as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; follows: “They say that the oracle is a perpendicular cavern, not very&#xD;&#xA;&gt; broad at the mouth, and that an inspiring air is wafted up from it,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and that over the mouth of it stands a high tripod, which the Pythian&#xD;&#xA;&gt; priestess mounts and receiving the air utters the oracles, some in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; verse and some in prose, and the prose oracles are put into verse by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; poets employed in the service of the sanctuary.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A connection between this and the island of Crete occurs at the end of the same paragraph of Frazer’s commentary: “According to Plutarch (*De defectu oraculorum*, 42 and 46) the name of the man who first discovered the inspiring influence of the cavern by falling into it was Coretas. Some have taken the name Coretas to be etymologically connected with *Curetes* and *Crete* and hence have regarded it as a confirmation of the legend that the Delphic oracle was of Cretan origin.” He goes on:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Before the priestess descended into the cavern, omens were taken from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; goats. Cold water was poured on the goat’s head, and if the animal&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shivered and shook in all its limbs, the omen was good, the goat was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sacrificed, and the priestess descended into the cave. But if the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; goat, when drenched with the water, stood motionless or only shook its&#xD;&#xA;&gt; head, the omen was unfavourable, and the priestess did not go down.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The origin of this custom was explained by the story that the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; inspiring influences which emanated from the cave had first been&#xD;&#xA;&gt; experienced by goats. See Plutarch, *De defectu oraculorum*, 46, 49,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and 51; Diodorus, xvi. 26.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**4.	*Phemonoe was the first prophetess of Apollon, and sang in hexameter verse.* This,** says Pausanias here, **is the most prevalent view.** The *Periegesis* implies that the first oracle sang by Phemonoe was a prophecy about the arrival of Apollon at Delphi and the destruction of Python upon that advent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Phemonoe was a daughter of Apollon or of Delphos the founder of Delphi (in the latter of which instances she was a granddaughter of either Apollon or Poseidon). Her mother Kastalia, a daughter of the River Akhelous, transformed into a spring of water at the foot of Mt Parnassos in order to escape the advances of Apollon. Pausanias says that, in conjunction with an adjoining spring, the waters of Kastalia are what inspired the local prophetesses of Apollon with their oracular powers. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**5.	*According to the Delphian poetess Boio** [Boeo], says Pausanias, **the shrine of Apollon at Delphi was built by a group of Hyperboreans led by Olen, Pagasos and Agyieos. Olen was the first prophet of Apollon, chanting the hexameter oracles.*** The *Hellados Periegesis* 10.5.8 qualifies this with the disclaimer that &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tradition, however, reports no other man as prophet, but makes mention&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of prophetesses only.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13512" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1746" RevisionGUID="41c5844b-98d4-4acc-a89f-c4242c090fd9" CreationDate="2018-02-23T10:17:11.370" UserId="2682" Comment="added information" Text="As with other Greco-Roman myths, the connection is often through children, descendants or other family members. While Europa herself does not seem to have made it to the continental mainland, her brother Kadmos [Cadmus] did, and there, in memory of their hometown, he founded a Greek version of the hundred-gated Egyptian city of Thebes, although his rendition had only seven gates. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kadmos' arrival on the mainland and his importation of the alphabet used by their people, the Tyrians and Sidonians, is significant because it only happens on account of his fervent search for his sister. It might be an intentional ironic twist that he never finds her (his sister, the Tyro-Sidonian princess) but he *does* find &quot;her&quot; (Europa, the continent). The mythology makes the effort to locate Kadmos not just in Greece but also further inland and northward in Illyria, where later misadventures end him up. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While Europa's eldest child Minos remained on Crete Island as its king, his daughter Phaidra [Phaedra] became queen of Athens, his brother Rhadamanthys became king of Okaleia in Boiotia [Boeotia] and his sister Alagonia moved to Peloponnesos [Peloponnesus] where the town of Alagonia in Lakedaimonia [Lacedaemonia] was named after her. The idea is, additionally, that the abducted princess Europa is the &quot;mother&quot; of these cities and their peoples.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a much less dramatic version, by the way, in which all the continents (or rather major regions) with which the Greeks were familiar—Europe, Africa and Anatolia—were named after daughters of the Titan Okeanos [Oceanus]: Europa, Libya and Asia respectively.&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. According to Robert Fowler's *Early Greek Mythography*, the earliest attestation of this occurs in a fragment written by a certain Andron, who says that Europe &amp; Thrace [or &quot;Thraike,&quot; the region of warlike peoples to the NW of Greece] were Okeanos' daughters by an otherwise unknown Parthenope while the same Titan had another, even more obscure wife, named Pampholyge (or Pompholyge), who bore him Asia &amp; Libya. John Tzetzes' commentary on Lycophron expounds upon Libya in this context.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Herodotus might be the only ancient mythographer to write explicitly about the Oceanid Asia giving her name to Europe's adjacent continent. Europa is an Oceanid in Hesiod's *Theogony*. This Oceanid, says Stephanus of Byzantium, bore Zeus a son called Dodon, after whom the city of Dodona, with its famous oracle, was named.&lt;/sub&gt;  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13518" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3391" RevisionGUID="edf6eb85-60ad-4ea1-8605-fc265bffa95c" CreationDate="2018-02-23T19:57:02.143" UserId="4565" Text="Bowing at the knees in Greek is an act called *proskynesis*. It wasn't mandatory, but it did occur. It was more often associated with the Persians, as they would perform *proskynesis* to those nobler than they (which meant that everyone bowed to the Persian king).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Xenophon contrasts this with the Greek practice of only kneeling toward the gods:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; οὐδένα γὰρ ἄνθρωπον δεσπότην ἀλλὰ τοὺς θεοὺς **προσκυνεῖτε**.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; For you **bow your knee** to no man as master but to the gods [alone].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This would imply that Greeks did indeed bow their knees to the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Aeschylus' *Prometheus Bound*, Prometheus tells the chorus to worship &quot;whoever is their lord,&quot; and in doing so uses the verb from which *proskynesis* is derived, προσεύχου; in denying that he would ever do so to Zeus, he affirms the idea that it can be done to the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note, though, that this doesn't mean the Greeks would automatically fall at the knees at the sight of the gods. That seems to be a later practice." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13519" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3392" RevisionGUID="4707be40-5e3e-4bf5-a296-fcbb9313e538" CreationDate="2018-02-23T20:58:39.400" UserId="4797" Text="I am looking for early stories that follow the popular theme of the ghost story: A spirit of the dead appearing amongst the living. Bonus points if there's a haunting involved.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm only interested in encounters that happen in the mortal world, not in the underworld, like for example when Odysseus meets the shades in the Odyssey. &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13520" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3392" RevisionGUID="4707be40-5e3e-4bf5-a296-fcbb9313e538" CreationDate="2018-02-23T20:58:39.400" UserId="4797" Text="What is the earliest ghost story we know of?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13521" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3392" RevisionGUID="4707be40-5e3e-4bf5-a296-fcbb9313e538" CreationDate="2018-02-23T20:58:39.400" UserId="4797" Text="|myth-identification|folklore|origins|history|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13522" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3354" RevisionGUID="5f2f34a5-0482-4dc3-ad85-5091b910f2f2" CreationDate="2018-02-23T21:41:21.907" UserId="2892" Comment="added 621 characters in body" Text="It's interesting that the most common epithet of Zeus in Greek literature is not the form of the name beginning in &quot;z&quot;, but the form equivalent to [*Dios*](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D*dio%2Fs2).  (This is the same word root for god in the Romance languages of Europe.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You see the word as an adjective often in phrases like  καὶ δῖος Ἀχιλλεύς (*kai dios Achilleus*) &quot;godlike Achilles&quot;, and even other deities might be described as divine (lowercase d), but only Zeus himself is referred to as Δῖος (&quot;God&quot; with the capital D).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some have linked the &quot;seus&quot; part of Jesus' name to Zeus, arguing that his original name was Joshua (ישוע [*Yeshua*][1]).  All are &quot;King of Heaven&quot; for their respective heavens, whether Olympus, Asgard or the Christian heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Joseph Campbell might refer to Odin, Zeus and the Lord of Hosts as &quot;sky fathers&quot;, and the depictions of all deities in art have certain characteristics such as the beard. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is no accident as Italian Renaissance art in particular was heavily influenced by Classical mythology at the peak of the power of the Catholic Church.  You can even find a direct merging of the two cosmologies in [Dante][2]'s Inferno, which itself influences the Christian conception of the universe second only probably to the bible itself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; It also worth noting that a well known epithet of Odin is the &quot;Allfather&quot; ([Alfaðir][3]), and in Christian sects that uphold the doctrine of the [trinity][4], the creator is knows as &quot;[God the Father][5]&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The main distinction I see is that the polytheistic versions of these kings of heaven were only [nigh][6]-omniscient and/or nigh-omnipotent.  Specifically, they were the kings of their respective hills, but inferior to the &quot;monotheistic&quot; conception.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;Note: Unlike Zeus, who is undying and eternal, though not omniscient nor omnipotent, Odin is mortal in the sense he dies at Ragnarök, swallowed whole by the wolf [Fenrir][7].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*PS: I found your question clear and understood exactly what you are asking.  It's not an uncommon question, and my own professors addressed it when I was a Classics student.*&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.vision.org/visionmedia/religion-and-spirituality-dante-alighieri/64177.aspx&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/the-aesir-gods-and-goddesses/odin/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Prayer&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/nigh&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenrir" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13523" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3354" RevisionGUID="42be59a9-4779-4b5a-a586-4af090cb56e4" CreationDate="2018-02-23T22:01:35.793" UserId="2892" Comment="added 163 characters in body" Text="It's interesting that the most common epithet of Zeus in Greek literature is not the form of the name beginning in &quot;z&quot;, but the form equivalent to [*Dios*](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D*dio%2Fs2).  (This is the same word root for god in the Romance languages of Europe.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You see the word as an adjective often in phrases like  καὶ δῖος Ἀχιλλεύς (*kai dios Achilleus*) &quot;godlike Achilles&quot;, and even other deities might be described as divine (lowercase d), but only Zeus himself is referred to as Δῖος (&quot;God&quot; with the capital D).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some have linked the &quot;seus&quot; part of Jesus' name to Zeus, arguing that his original name was Joshua (ישוע [*Yeshua*][1]).  All are &quot;King of Heaven&quot; for their respective heavens, whether Olympus, Asgard or the Christian heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Joseph Campbell might refer to Odin, Zeus and the Lord of Hosts as &quot;sky fathers&quot;, and the depictions of all deities in art have certain characteristics such as the beard. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is no accident as Italian Renaissance art in particular was heavily influenced by Classical mythology at the peak of the power of the Catholic Church.  You can even find a direct merging of the two cosmologies in [Dante][2]'s Inferno, which influences the Christian conception of the universe second only to the bible itself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; It is also worth noting that a well known epithet of Odin is the &quot;Allfather&quot; ([Alfaðir][3]), and that Zeus is called &quot;[Father of the Gods and Men][4]&quot;.  In Christian sects that uphold the doctrine of the [trinity][5], the creator is knows as &quot;[God the Father][6]&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The main distinction I see is that the polytheistic versions of these kings of heaven were only [nigh][7]-omniscient and/or nigh-omnipotent.  Specifically, they were the kings of their respective hills, but inferior to the &quot;monotheistic&quot; conception.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;Note: Unlike Zeus, who is undying and eternal, though not omniscient nor omnipotent, Odin is mortal in the sense he dies at Ragnarök, swallowed whole by the wolf [Fenrir][8].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*PS: I found your question clear and understood exactly what you are asking.  It's not an uncommon question, and my own professors addressed it when I was a Classics student.*&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.vision.org/visionmedia/religion-and-spirituality-dante-alighieri/64177.aspx&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/the-aesir-gods-and-goddesses/odin/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D531&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Prayer&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/nigh&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenrir" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13525" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3393" RevisionGUID="5051db3e-06a1-4388-80cc-4f622a3bcbc0" CreationDate="2018-02-24T01:08:10.517" UserId="4798" Text="Well after winning the war against Cronos he and his brothers put 3 gems into a pot and drew one out each Zeus going first getting a dimond for the sky, a sapphire for the sea and a ruby for the Underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;p.s Hades is the greek god and Pluto is the Roman. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13528" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3349" RevisionGUID="49897217-f817-488f-8cbf-dd51a75c1009" CreationDate="2018-02-24T10:01:14.437" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 4 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Could the Norse Odin or the Greek Zeus be Christianity's &quot;The Creator&quot; and father of Jesus?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13529" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3349" RevisionGUID="49897217-f817-488f-8cbf-dd51a75c1009" CreationDate="2018-02-24T10:01:14.437" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 4 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Is there a connection between Odin or Zeus and the Christian God?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13530" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3349" RevisionGUID="49897217-f817-488f-8cbf-dd51a75c1009" CreationDate="2018-02-24T10:01:14.437" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 4 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|greek|norse|comparative|christianity|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13531" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3354" RevisionGUID="f4d9e09a-9f2f-4ec2-899b-07a7e9675d80" CreationDate="2018-02-24T10:02:10.527" UserId="57" Comment="let's avoid meta commentary in answers. you may use comments instead." Text="It's interesting that the most common epithet of Zeus in Greek literature is not the form of the name beginning in &quot;z&quot;, but the form equivalent to [*Dios*](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D*dio%2Fs2).  (This is the same word root for god in the Romance languages of Europe.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You see the word as an adjective often in phrases like  καὶ δῖος Ἀχιλλεύς (*kai dios Achilleus*) &quot;godlike Achilles&quot;, and even other deities might be described as divine (lowercase d), but only Zeus himself is referred to as Δῖος (&quot;God&quot; with the capital D).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some have linked the &quot;seus&quot; part of Jesus' name to Zeus, arguing that his original name was Joshua (ישוע [*Yeshua*][1]).  All are &quot;King of Heaven&quot; for their respective heavens, whether Olympus, Asgard or the Christian heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Joseph Campbell might refer to Odin, Zeus and the Lord of Hosts as &quot;sky fathers&quot;, and the depictions of all deities in art have certain characteristics such as the beard. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is no accident as Italian Renaissance art in particular was heavily influenced by Classical mythology at the peak of the power of the Catholic Church.  You can even find a direct merging of the two cosmologies in [Dante][2]'s Inferno, which influences the Christian conception of the universe second only to the bible itself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; It is also worth noting that a well known epithet of Odin is the &quot;Allfather&quot; ([Alfaðir][3]), and that Zeus is called &quot;[Father of the Gods and Men][4]&quot;.  In Christian sects that uphold the doctrine of the [trinity][5], the creator is knows as &quot;[God the Father][6]&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The main distinction I see is that the polytheistic versions of these kings of heaven were only [nigh][7]-omniscient and/or nigh-omnipotent.  Specifically, they were the kings of their respective hills, but inferior to the &quot;monotheistic&quot; conception.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: Unlike Zeus, who is undying and eternal, though not omniscient nor omnipotent, Odin is mortal in the sense he dies at Ragnarök, swallowed whole by the wolf [Fenrir][8].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.vision.org/visionmedia/religion-and-spirituality-dante-alighieri/64177.aspx&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/the-aesir-gods-and-goddesses/odin/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D531&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Prayer&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/nigh&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenrir" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13532" PostHistoryTypeId="11" PostId="3349" RevisionGUID="f2d8c1c1-cc86-420f-9882-0facb14c1760" CreationDate="2018-02-24T10:02:16.587" UserId="57" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:4105,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ouroboros&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:2892,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;DukeZhou&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;yannis&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="13533" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3394" RevisionGUID="bbf3d678-9990-4d21-8aac-e63d6658a508" CreationDate="2018-02-24T11:43:31.027" UserId="57" Text="[Pliny the Younger][1] tells the story of a haunted house in first century CE Athens, in his [letter to Sura][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now the following story, which I am going to tell you just as I heard it, is it not more terrible than the former, while quite as wonderful? There was at Athens a large and roomy house, which had a bad name, so that no one could live there. In the dead of the night a noise, resembling the clashing of iron, was frequently heard, which, if you listened more attentively, sounded like the rattling of chains, distant at first, but approaching nearer by degrees: immediately afterwards a spectre appeared in the form of an old man, of extremely emaciated and squalid appearance, with a long beard and dishevelled, hair, rattling the chains on his feet and hands. The distressed occupants meanwhile passed their wakeful nights under the most dreadful terrors imaginable. This, as it broke their rest, ruined their health, and brought on distempers, their terror grew upon them, and death ensued. Even in the daytime, though the spirit did not appear, yet the impression remained so strong upon their imaginations that it still seemed before their eyes, and kept them in perpetual alarm. Consequently the house was at length deserted, as being deemed absolutely uninhabitable; so that it was now entirely abandoned to the ghost. However, in hopes that some tenant might be found who was ignorant of this very alarming circumstance, a bill was put up, giving notice that it was either to be let or sold. It happened that Athenodorus the philosopher came to Athens at this time, and, reading the bill, enquired the price. The extraordinary cheapness raised his suspicion; nevertheless, when he heard the whole story, he was so far from being discouraged that he was more strongly inclined to hire it, and, in short, actually did so. When it grew towards evening, he ordered a couch to be prepared for him in the front part of the house, and, after calling for a light, together with his pencil and tablets, directed all his people to retire. But that his mind might not, for want of employment, be open to the vain terrors of imaginary noises and spirits, he applied himself to writing with the utmost attention. The first part of the night passed in entire silence, as usual; at length a clanking of iron and rattling of chains was heard: however, he neither lifted up his eyes nor laid down his pen, but, in order to keep calm and collected, tried to pass the sounds off to himself as something else. The noise increased and advanced nearer, till it seemed at the door, and at last in the chamber. He looked up, saw, and recognized the ghost exactly as it had been described to him: it stood before him, beckoning with the finger, like a person who calls another. Athenodorus in reply made a sign with his hand that it should wait a little, and threw his eyes again upon his papers; the ghost then rattled its chains over the head of the philosopher, who looked up upon this, and seeing it beckoning as before, immediately arose, and, light in hand, followed it. The ghost slowly stalked along, as if encumbered with its chains, and, turning into the area of the house, suddenly vanished. Athenodorus, being thus deserted, made a mark with some grass and leaves on the spot where the spirit left him. The next day he gave information to the magistrates, and advised them to order that spot to be dug up. This was accordingly done, and the skeleton of a man in chains was found there; for the body, having lain a considerable time in the ground, was putrefied and mouldered away from the fetters. The bones, being collected together, were publicly buried, and thus after the ghost was appeased by the proper ceremonies, the house was haunted no more. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; Source: [Pliny the Younger (A.D. 62?–c.A.D. 113). Letters. The Harvard Classics. 1909–14.][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Younger&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistulae_(Pliny)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.bartleby.com/9/4/1083.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13534" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3392" RevisionGUID="a546cb4f-4c62-43cf-ab40-fd69d8b24e25" CreationDate="2018-02-24T11:47:52.300" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|origins|history|ghosts|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13535" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3349" RevisionGUID="7e46de9c-a96a-486b-9962-5333b545c46f" CreationDate="2018-02-24T11:48:50.313" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|norse|comparative|christianity|syncretism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13536" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1379" RevisionGUID="cf90232c-6534-4bd4-8c19-5a3184936e8f" CreationDate="2018-02-24T11:49:17.830" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|india|ghosts|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13537" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1792" RevisionGUID="1447d798-73f5-4614-93d7-e10dd1fceb27" CreationDate="2018-02-24T11:50:03.297" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|origins|ghosts|demons|apotropaism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13538" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="89" RevisionGUID="73bcca5f-e38a-46a4-87c0-4773e31f6e42" CreationDate="2018-02-24T11:50:56.333" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|weapons|werewolves|apotropaism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13539" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3177" RevisionGUID="da28bde3-269d-40d3-91ec-1414cf13e4dc" CreationDate="2018-02-24T11:51:06.037" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|vampires|apotropaism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13540" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3394" RevisionGUID="d6c6a2b8-47b7-4ede-bc43-3db927722d9e" CreationDate="2018-02-24T11:59:25.653" UserId="57" Comment="added 35 characters in body" Text="[Pliny the Younger][1] tells the story of a haunted house in first century CE Athens, in his [letter to Sura][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now the following story, which I am going to tell you just as I heard it, is it not more terrible than the former, while quite as wonderful? There was at Athens a large and roomy house, which had a bad name, so that no one could live there. In the dead of the night a noise, resembling the clashing of iron, was frequently heard, which, if you listened more attentively, sounded like the rattling of chains, distant at first, but approaching nearer by degrees: immediately afterwards a spectre appeared in the form of an old man, of extremely emaciated and squalid appearance, with a long beard and dishevelled, hair, rattling the chains on his feet and hands.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The distressed occupants meanwhile passed their wakeful nights under the most dreadful terrors imaginable. This, as it broke their rest, ruined their health, and brought on distempers, their terror grew upon them, and death ensued. Even in the daytime, though the spirit did not appear, yet the impression remained so strong upon their imaginations that it still seemed before their eyes, and kept them in perpetual alarm. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Consequently the house was at length deserted, as being deemed absolutely uninhabitable; so that it was now entirely abandoned to the ghost. However, in hopes that some tenant might be found who was ignorant of this very alarming circumstance, a bill was put up, giving notice that it was either to be let or sold. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It happened that Athenodorus the philosopher came to Athens at this time, and, reading the bill, enquired the price. The extraordinary cheapness raised his suspicion; nevertheless, when he heard the whole story, he was so far from being discouraged that he was more strongly inclined to hire it, and, in short, actually did so. When it grew towards evening, he ordered a couch to be prepared for him in the front part of the house, and, after calling for a light, together with his pencil and tablets, directed all his people to retire. But that his mind might not, for want of employment, be open to the vain terrors of imaginary noises and spirits, he applied himself to writing with the utmost attention. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The first part of the night passed in entire silence, as usual; at length a clanking of iron and rattling of chains was heard: however, he neither lifted up his eyes nor laid down his pen, but, in order to keep calm and collected, tried to pass the sounds off to himself as something else. The noise increased and advanced nearer, till it seemed at the door, and at last in the chamber. He looked up, saw, and recognized the ghost exactly as it had been described to him: it stood before him, beckoning with the finger, like a person who calls another. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Athenodorus in reply made a sign with his hand that it should wait a little, and threw his eyes again upon his papers; the ghost then rattled its chains over the head of the philosopher, who looked up upon this, and seeing it beckoning as before, immediately arose, and, light in hand, followed it. The ghost slowly stalked along, as if encumbered with its chains, and, turning into the area of the house, suddenly vanished. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Athenodorus, being thus deserted, made a mark with some grass and leaves on the spot where the spirit left him. The next day he gave information to the magistrates, and advised them to order that spot to be dug up. This was accordingly done, and the skeleton of a man in chains was found there; for the body, having lain a considerable time in the ground, was putrefied and mouldered away from the fetters. The bones, being collected together, were publicly buried, and thus after the ghost was appeased by the proper ceremonies, the house was haunted no more. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; Source: [Pliny the Younger (A.D. 62?–c.A.D. 113). Letters. The Harvard Classics. 1909–14.][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Younger&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistulae_(Pliny)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.bartleby.com/9/4/1083.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13541" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3394" RevisionGUID="eff1aa28-74c0-4541-96ce-3cf376ee0fb0" CreationDate="2018-02-24T12:23:51.920" UserId="57" Comment="added 1286 characters in body" Text="[Pliny the Younger][1] tells the story of a haunted house in first century CE Athens, in his [letter to Sura][2]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now the following story, which I am going to tell you just as I heard it, is it not more terrible than the former, while quite as wonderful? There was at Athens a large and roomy house, which had a bad name, so that no one could live there. In the dead of the night a noise, resembling the clashing of iron, was frequently heard, which, if you listened more attentively, sounded like the rattling of chains, distant at first, but approaching nearer by degrees: immediately afterwards a spectre appeared in the form of an old man, of extremely emaciated and squalid appearance, with a long beard and dishevelled, hair, rattling the chains on his feet and hands.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The distressed occupants meanwhile passed their wakeful nights under the most dreadful terrors imaginable. This, as it broke their rest, ruined their health, and brought on distempers, their terror grew upon them, and death ensued. Even in the daytime, though the spirit did not appear, yet the impression remained so strong upon their imaginations that it still seemed before their eyes, and kept them in perpetual alarm. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Consequently the house was at length deserted, as being deemed absolutely uninhabitable; so that it was now entirely abandoned to the ghost. However, in hopes that some tenant might be found who was ignorant of this very alarming circumstance, a bill was put up, giving notice that it was either to be let or sold. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It happened that Athenodorus the philosopher came to Athens at this time, and, reading the bill, enquired the price. The extraordinary cheapness raised his suspicion; nevertheless, when he heard the whole story, he was so far from being discouraged that he was more strongly inclined to hire it, and, in short, actually did so. When it grew towards evening, he ordered a couch to be prepared for him in the front part of the house, and, after calling for a light, together with his pencil and tablets, directed all his people to retire. But that his mind might not, for want of employment, be open to the vain terrors of imaginary noises and spirits, he applied himself to writing with the utmost attention. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The first part of the night passed in entire silence, as usual; at length a clanking of iron and rattling of chains was heard: however, he neither lifted up his eyes nor laid down his pen, but, in order to keep calm and collected, tried to pass the sounds off to himself as something else. The noise increased and advanced nearer, till it seemed at the door, and at last in the chamber. He looked up, saw, and recognized the ghost exactly as it had been described to him: it stood before him, beckoning with the finger, like a person who calls another. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Athenodorus in reply made a sign with his hand that it should wait a little, and threw his eyes again upon his papers; the ghost then rattled its chains over the head of the philosopher, who looked up upon this, and seeing it beckoning as before, immediately arose, and, light in hand, followed it. The ghost slowly stalked along, as if encumbered with its chains, and, turning into the area of the house, suddenly vanished. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Athenodorus, being thus deserted, made a mark with some grass and leaves on the spot where the spirit left him. The next day he gave information to the magistrates, and advised them to order that spot to be dug up. This was accordingly done, and the skeleton of a man in chains was found there; for the body, having lain a considerable time in the ground, was putrefied and mouldered away from the fetters. The bones, being collected together, were publicly buried, and thus after the ghost was appeased by the proper ceremonies, the house was haunted no more. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; Source: [Pliny the Younger (A.D. 62?–c.A.D. 113). Letters. The Harvard Classics. 1909–14.][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am not sure if Pliny's story is the _earliest_ ghost story we know of, but I think it includes all elements of the motif you are looking for.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Lucian][4] also discusses ghosts (and other supernatural beings) in  [Philopseudes][5], albeit in a heavily satirical tone. In one instance, one of the characters introduces the idea that ghosts are the result of a violent death another classic element of the ghost story trope: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;We were only trying,&quot; he said, &quot;to convince this man of adamant that there are such things as supernatural beings and ghosts, and that the spirits of the dead walk the earth and manifest themselves to whomsoever they will.&quot; Moved by the august presence of Arignotus, I blushed, and hung my head. &quot;Ah, but, Eucrates,&quot; said he, &quot;perhaps all that Tychiades means is, that a spirit only walks if its owner met with a violent end, if he was strangled, for instance, or beheaded or crucified, and not if he died a natural death. If that is what he means, there is great justice in his contention.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Works of Lucian of Samosata, Volume III. tr. by H. W. Fowler and F. G. Fowler. Oxford: The Clarendon Press&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Younger&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistulae_(Pliny)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.bartleby.com/9/4/1083.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucian&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lover_of_Lies" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13542" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3394" RevisionGUID="112f7be9-01fa-44a4-8691-73a0f0b28b46" CreationDate="2018-02-24T12:33:18.053" UserId="57" Comment="added 90 characters in body" Text="[Pliny the Younger][1] tells the story of a haunted house Athens, featuring the stoic [Athenodorus Cananites][2], in his [letter to Sura][3]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now the following story, which I am going to tell you just as I heard it, is it not more terrible than the former, while quite as wonderful? There was at Athens a large and roomy house, which had a bad name, so that no one could live there. In the dead of the night a noise, resembling the clashing of iron, was frequently heard, which, if you listened more attentively, sounded like the rattling of chains, distant at first, but approaching nearer by degrees: immediately afterwards a spectre appeared in the form of an old man, of extremely emaciated and squalid appearance, with a long beard and dishevelled, hair, rattling the chains on his feet and hands.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The distressed occupants meanwhile passed their wakeful nights under the most dreadful terrors imaginable. This, as it broke their rest, ruined their health, and brought on distempers, their terror grew upon them, and death ensued. Even in the daytime, though the spirit did not appear, yet the impression remained so strong upon their imaginations that it still seemed before their eyes, and kept them in perpetual alarm. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Consequently the house was at length deserted, as being deemed absolutely uninhabitable; so that it was now entirely abandoned to the ghost. However, in hopes that some tenant might be found who was ignorant of this very alarming circumstance, a bill was put up, giving notice that it was either to be let or sold. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It happened that Athenodorus the philosopher came to Athens at this time, and, reading the bill, enquired the price. The extraordinary cheapness raised his suspicion; nevertheless, when he heard the whole story, he was so far from being discouraged that he was more strongly inclined to hire it, and, in short, actually did so. When it grew towards evening, he ordered a couch to be prepared for him in the front part of the house, and, after calling for a light, together with his pencil and tablets, directed all his people to retire. But that his mind might not, for want of employment, be open to the vain terrors of imaginary noises and spirits, he applied himself to writing with the utmost attention. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The first part of the night passed in entire silence, as usual; at length a clanking of iron and rattling of chains was heard: however, he neither lifted up his eyes nor laid down his pen, but, in order to keep calm and collected, tried to pass the sounds off to himself as something else. The noise increased and advanced nearer, till it seemed at the door, and at last in the chamber. He looked up, saw, and recognized the ghost exactly as it had been described to him: it stood before him, beckoning with the finger, like a person who calls another. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Athenodorus in reply made a sign with his hand that it should wait a little, and threw his eyes again upon his papers; the ghost then rattled its chains over the head of the philosopher, who looked up upon this, and seeing it beckoning as before, immediately arose, and, light in hand, followed it. The ghost slowly stalked along, as if encumbered with its chains, and, turning into the area of the house, suddenly vanished. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Athenodorus, being thus deserted, made a mark with some grass and leaves on the spot where the spirit left him. The next day he gave information to the magistrates, and advised them to order that spot to be dug up. This was accordingly done, and the skeleton of a man in chains was found there; for the body, having lain a considerable time in the ground, was putrefied and mouldered away from the fetters. The bones, being collected together, were publicly buried, and thus after the ghost was appeased by the proper ceremonies, the house was haunted no more. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; Source: [Pliny the Younger (A.D. 62?–c.A.D. 113). Letters. The Harvard Classics. 1909–14.][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am not sure if Pliny's story is the _earliest_ ghost story we know of, but I think it includes all elements of the motif you are looking for.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Lucian][5] also discusses ghosts (and other supernatural beings) in  [Philopseudes][6], albeit in a heavily satirical tone. In one instance, one of the characters introduces the idea that ghosts are the result of a violent death another classic element of the ghost story trope: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;We were only trying,&quot; he said, &quot;to convince this man of adamant that there are such things as supernatural beings and ghosts, and that the spirits of the dead walk the earth and manifest themselves to whomsoever they will.&quot; Moved by the august presence of Arignotus, I blushed, and hung my head. &quot;Ah, but, Eucrates,&quot; said he, &quot;perhaps all that Tychiades means is, that a spirit only walks if its owner met with a violent end, if he was strangled, for instance, or beheaded or crucified, and not if he died a natural death. If that is what he means, there is great justice in his contention.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Works of Lucian of Samosata, Volume III. tr. by H. W. Fowler and F. G. Fowler. Oxford: The Clarendon Press&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Younger&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenodorus_Cananites&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistulae_(Pliny)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.bartleby.com/9/4/1083.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucian&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lover_of_Lies" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13543" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1822" RevisionGUID="42752167-8cd4-4e10-a7a5-cd391d314a8e" CreationDate="2018-02-24T12:57:16.777" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; improved formatting" Text="&lt;sub&gt;Argolis, E. Peloponnesos&lt;/sub&gt;   &#xD;&#xA;**TROIZENOS  &#xD;&#xA;Poseidon vs Athena &gt; 1 - 1**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the scramble for patronage over city territories, there's an occasion on which Zeus declared a draw between Poseidon and Athena when these two competed for Troizenos [Troezen]. According to Pausanias' [Description of Greece](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Paus.+2.30.6), by Leïs, the first princess of the city, Poseidon became the father of Althepos [Althepus], who became king when he grew up, naming the land Althepia. During Althepos' reign, his father Poseidon and his cousin Athena came to lay claims to the city and Zeus declared it theirs in common so that Poseidon was honoured as Basileus, &quot;King,&quot; and Athena under the names Polias, &quot;Urban,&quot; and Sthenias, &quot;Mighty.&quot; It was a few generations later that the city's name was changed to Troizenos. &quot;Moreover,&quot; says Pausanias, &quot;their old coins depict a trident and a face of Athena.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;[![Troizenian Coin with Head of Athena + Trident][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[2 chapters later](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Paus.+2.32.8) in the same travelogue, however, Pausanias mentions the origin of another of Poseidon's local cult titles. &quot;Being wroth with them [the citizens], Poseidon smote the land with barrenness, *halmē* [brine] reaching the seeds and the roots of the *phyta* [plants], until, appeased by sacrifices and prayers, he ceased to send up the *halmē* upon the earth.&quot; And hence he was called Phytalmios, &quot;Nurturer.&quot; The reason for the god's anger is not mentioned but it's not impossible that he received poorly the requirement to share honour with his niece in yet another polis. At any rate Poseidon did in fact become a much more important deity at Troizenos than Athena. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I take the term *Olympian* to denote any of the major gods of the mainstream Hellenic religion, which includes Helios, the Sun, and the wine-god Dionysos [Dionysus]. The latter in particular eventually came to actually live on Mt Olympos [Olympus] and, according to Diodorus Siculus' *Bibliotheka Historika* 4.15.1, officially bore the title Olympios, &quot;Olympian.&quot; If, on the other hand, you are restricting the term to only the original list of the Twelve Great Gods, then what follows might not be much help.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;W. Isthmos, Between Peloponnesos &amp; Boiotia&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;**KORINTHOS  &#xD;&#xA;Poseidon vs Helios &gt; 1 - 1** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the same genre and story series of Major City Scramble Among the Gods, Poseidon contested with his cousin Helios for possession of Korinthos [Corinth]. Pausanias relates this event [at the beginning of the same book](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Paus.+2.1.6) of the travelogue in which he later narrates the Poseidon-vs-Athena disputes over Kekropia-Athens and Althepia-Troizenos.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;According to what the Korinthoi [Corinthians] told Pausanias, the Hundred-Handed Giant Briareus (perhaps having been delegated the assignment by Zeus) adjudicated between the Sea-King and the Sun, giving the Isthmos [Isthmus] to the former and the Akrokorinthos (the height above the city) to the latter. That account makes it sound like an amiable resolution to a mild tiff about office stationery, but in Nonnus' *Dionysiaka*, an extremely dramatic rendition of the story is narrated by Poseidon himself at the beginning of a tumultuously epic battle between him and his nephew Dionysos. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Isthmos Korinthios][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a bid to discourage the new wine-god before the fighting begins, Poseidon's allusion to his contest with Helios fails to mention any third-party arbitration. Perhaps, however, we are to understand that the quarrel regarding which Briareus issued judgement was a bodily ἀγών [*agon*], i.e. hand-to-hand combat as opposed to a test of rhetoric, so that he is more of a ringside referee than a courtroom magistrate. And, if we are to believe the Sea-King, going by the amount of violence that ensues in his narration, they may well have needed such a gigantic referee. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Heaven,&quot; Poseidon says to Dionysos, &quot;still trembles at my spear of the deep, Heaven knows what a battle with the Sea is like.&quot; He goes on to claim that the Sun felt the point of the sea-god's Trident, and that the Sea rose so high it even went into Αἰθέρος (*Aether*, the clear, bright air above the clouds), bathing the flaming sun-chariot in its waters even as the Titan charioteer was going about his daily journey across the sky. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Canis, the Dog-constellation associated with an especially hot season, &quot;found salt water close by to bathe in and cooled its hot chin. The deep &#xD;&#xA;bottom of the waters was uplifted in towering waves, and the dolphin of the Sea met the Dolphin of the Sky [the constellation Delphinos, &quot;Dolphin&quot;] amid the lashing surges!&quot; Perhaps at this point Briareus perceived that things had gotten way out of hand and decided to call it a draw between the two opponents.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#BERYTOS &lt;sub&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Important Seaport of Lebanon&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;    &#xD;&#xA;###POSEIDON Vs DIONYSOS &gt; 1 - Nil    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A very similar turn of events occurs in the dispute between Poseidon and Dionysos but the effect is unique in Poseidon's experience and is rather curious for the piece of literature in which it is found. The battle which ensues between their two armies is by far the most violent action sequence between two groups of deities in this mythology since the Titans' War. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Over the course of three episodes (Books 41-43 of the epic), Nonnus is essentially allegorising the story of how Berytos [Berytus], now Lebanon's capital city Beirut, became the principal polis of Roman Phoenicia. In like manner to Poseidon's popularity contests with Hera, Athena and Helios, the King of the Sea clashes with his nephew over ownership of this Near Eastern centre of imperial influence. In this instance, though, the city has been personified as Beroe, a daughter of Okeanos who occurs as a minor character in Virgil's *Georgics*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***A Primaeval City and a Newer Version of Itself***  &#xD;&#xA;The *Dionysiaka* presents a pair of diverging origin stories for this character, both connected with the goddess Aphrodite, who is Beroe's mother in the second story. The goddess orchestrates the disagreement between the two gods in order to bring her daughter, and thus the city of Berytos, to prominence. (Nonnus might here be borrowing the idea that Zeus masterminded the Trojan War in order to bring fame to his daughter Helen.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the first story, which is cosmic in scale, Beroe is an Oceanid and her uncle the Titan-King Kronos is the first person to ever build a city, which happens to be none other than the magnificent Berytos. It is implied that Zeus was born here, or at least that the stone which Kronos swallowed instead of his son was served to the Titan while Kronos was enthroned here. In this context Nonnus reports that the famous tradition about Aphrodite having first made landfall on Cyprus Island is really a lie, because she actually first touched *terra firma* at this most ancient Lebanese port, a few days east of Cyprus (41.66-118).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Beirut][3]][3]  &#xD;&#xA;The *Dionysiaka*'s interest, however, eventually shifts and settles upon the second story, which makes Beroe (and thus Berytos) much younger, as the alluring mortal daughter of Aphrodite by the Assyrian prince Adonis. The story is thus framed, rather than a fight for territorial acreage, as a romantic fantasy action drama featuring a contest about who will become Beroe's bridegroom. Nonnus does, however, `completely spoil the ending` by starting off with a declaration of who gets the girl, which information is supplied to the audience even before the rival suitors seem to be aware that the young woman exists. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Beroe grows up in Book 41, Zeus sees her and is charmed with reminiscences of another beautiful Asian princess, namely Europa, whom he long before then abducted after assuming the form of a bull which was eventually placed in the sky as the constellation Tauros [Taurus]. The king of the gods fantasises about reenacting the abduction the same way, in bull form, but Tauros senses this and bellows aloud his displeasure at the potential of eventually being rivalled by a second bull-constellation in the sky. So Zeus &quot;left Beroe, who was destined for a watery bridal, as his brother's bedfellow, for he wished not to quarrel with Ennosigaios ['*Earth-Shaker*'] about an earthbound wife.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Making a Love Triangle***  &#xD;&#xA;At the end of Book 41, Aphrodite charges her son Eros to inflame both Poseidon and Dionysos with passion for Beroe, which command Eros obeys at the beginning of the next book. The two impassioned gods each then attempt to woo Eros's young half-sister and they present their cases in terms of what magnificent dowry they have at their disposal. Aphrodite claims that she wishes she could grant both gods the honour of being Beroe's husband but since this would be unlawful, her solution is that they must duke it out in combat against each other, winner take all. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She, however, causes them to swear &quot;by Kronides [Zeus] and Gaia, by Aither [Aether] and the floods of Styx&quot; that the loser will not lay waste to Berytos, whether by earthquake in Poseidon's case or by destruction of vineyards on the part of Dionysos. The three Fates themselves witness this most solemn oath, upon which each god promises not only to be at peace with the city but also to directly participate in its beautification and to grant it prosperity. With that admin out of the way, Zeus himself descends from Mt Olympos together with all its divine inhabitants in order to watch the *agon* between the older god and the younger one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Book 42 then concludes with `a second spoiler about who's going to win`, when there &quot;appeared a great omen for love-stricken &#xD;&#xA;Dionysos.&quot; A falcon was pursuing a pigeon when suddenly a *haliaïetos*, &quot;sea eagle&quot; (called an *osprey* or *fish-hawk* in English), snapped the pigeon up off the ground and flew, with it in its talons' grasp, towards the depths of the sea. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When Dionysos beheld this, he cast away hope of victory. Nevertheless&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he entered the fray. Kronion the Father [*i.e. Zeus*] was pleased with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the contest of these two, as he watched from on high the match between&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his brother and his son with smiling eye.   &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;42.539-542&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Mayhem!***  &#xD;&#xA;Now in spite of the discouraging omen, and the narrator's remark about Dionysos practically throwing in the towel before the action begins, the two relatives start out Book 43 with a spirited rap battle, complete with pre-rugby-match-style psych-out war-dancing, before their armies descend upon each other with no holds barred.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All the sea deities, and most freshwater ones, side with Poseidon. Dionysos, who has just conquered the Indians, together with them among his forces, also has elephants from their country, as well as bears, panthers and other wild beasts, and also Panēs [Pans], Seilenoi [Sileni] (some of whom are riding horned bulls) and Satyrs. Troops of women augment the wine-god's regiments too: the Mainades, Bakkhantes, Mimallones and Bassaridai, together with a number of nymphs. The opposing forces rip up the countryside and hurl huge rocks and even entire cliff-sides at each other. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In 43.337-340 one of Poseidon's sea-lions is attacked by a strange phenomenon: an elephant which is described as *hypsinephēs*, &quot;as high as a cloud.&quot; I can think of only two ways of interpreting this: either the elephant can fly or it is so big it is quite literally a skyscraper (which would be gigantic even in comparison to J.R.R. Tolkien's Oliphaunts)! Either way, with that sort of clout, the battle should be over, but as though that's not enough, one thing happens to turn the tide to its tipping point.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Oliphaunt][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the Bassaridai, in a Dionysian frenzy, charges onto the sea and begins to dance, stamping her feet against the water's surface, and *not sinking* while she does so. Fire then blazes forth from her hair, directed at the sea and its inhabitants. Horrified and bewildered at this, the Nereid Psamathe launches into a lamentation prayer to Zeus, detailing her fear that Dionysos will kill the sea-god Glaukos and enslave her father Nereus, her sister Thetis, and even Dionysos' own aunt Leukothea. Psamathe begs Zeus to spare the sea-deities the madness of Dionysos. Surprisingly, and very anticlimactically, Zeus immediately complies, hurling thunderbolts all around Dionysos to indicate to him that it's `Game Over...|` just when it seems like the younger god is going to win!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Immediately following this is the wedding of Beroe to Poseidon, celebrated in the sea, with the river-gods bringing many gifts. Dejectedly, Dionysos sulks his way through the nuptials until Eros comes to persuade him that other prospects await him on dry land. Taking heart, the young wine-god leaves, heading for his mother's home city.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Some conclusions to which one might perhaps reasonably arrive***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Zeus sides with Poseidon against his own favourite son, the same one whom the very epic is named after! It's additionally a big deal because this version of Dionysos is a reincarnation of [Zagreus](http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/Zagreus.html), an ancient, beautifully monstrous, shape-shifting baby son of Zeus. Back in Book 6, the king of the gods loves Zagreus so dearly that he arms the baby god with his thunderbolts and even sets him on his own throne, indicating his desire to abdicate in the child's favour. Zagreus is, however, slain violently, and that's a whole other story. (On a later occasion, in a vengeance campaign against the city of Pylos, more characteristically, Zeus sides with another favourite son of his, Herakles, *against* Poseidon.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. In the battle for Beroe, Dionysos seems to have the upper hand against Poseidon when Zeus pulls rank on his son, rendering the Sea-King's victory a T.K.O. Nonetheless, unlike Briareus' ruling regarding Korinthos, or the decision about Troizenos, this one is *not* a draw at all. Poseidon has unequivocally won the day.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. It is a double victory: Poseidon acquires not only exclusive rights to a coastal city (finally) but also a well-desired bride.            &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/PB6RX.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/hYHLk.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/BIl6K.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/qTWvz.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13544" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3395" RevisionGUID="4939b1a3-236f-4570-a609-259c909eba30" CreationDate="2018-02-24T13:40:34.653" UserId="57" Text="I stumbled upon the Wikipedia article on Madonna Oriente, a mysterious religious figure of 14th century Milan: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Madonna Oriente or Signora Oriente (Lady of the East), also known as La Signora del Gioco (The Lady of the Game), are names of an alleged religious figure, as described by two Italian women who were executed by the Inquisition in 1390 as witches.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The story which they are reported to have told is an elaborate and fantastical tale of occult religious rituals practised at the houses of wealthy individuals in Milan, Italy, where a woman known as the Madonna Oriente, possibly regarded as a goddess by her followers, performed magical acts such as the resurrection of slaughtered animals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The two women, Sibilla Zanni and Pierina de' Bugatis, were brought before the Inquisition first in 1384, and with their story apparently dismissed as fantasy, were sentenced only to minor penance. When they were investigated again in 1390, however, they were charged with consorting with the Devil, condemned, and executed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Wikipedia contributors. (2017, July 8). Madonna Oriente. In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 13:27, February 24, 2018, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Madonna_Oriente&amp;oldid=789686368&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately, the article is very light on sources. Where can I find more details on the &quot;fantastical tale of occult religious rituals&quot; that cost the two women their lives? What do we know of the central figure of the story, Madonna Oriente? What was her connection with the east, and what is &quot;the game&quot; attested in her Italian name?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13545" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3395" RevisionGUID="4939b1a3-236f-4570-a609-259c909eba30" CreationDate="2018-02-24T13:40:34.653" UserId="57" Text="What is the story of Madonna Oriente?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13546" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3395" RevisionGUID="4939b1a3-236f-4570-a609-259c909eba30" CreationDate="2018-02-24T13:40:34.653" UserId="57" Text="|witchcraft|medieval-europe|italy|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13547" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2543" RevisionGUID="3e74dafd-a344-4fa6-a0c9-2527b5b4d62d" CreationDate="2018-02-24T13:47:43.710" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 1 character in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="I want to know how different cultures thought a god could be killed. So, I am trying to put together a list of gods who died in their mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So far I only have a short list: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Baldr &#xD;&#xA; - Jesus &#xD;&#xA; - Quetzlcoatl &#xD;&#xA; - Izanami-no-Mikoto.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can you help me think of other gods/demigods/deities/etc. (from any tradition) who was been killed?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13548" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2543" RevisionGUID="3e74dafd-a344-4fa6-a0c9-2527b5b4d62d" CreationDate="2018-02-24T13:47:43.710" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 1 character in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="What gods who have been killed in their myths?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13549" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2543" RevisionGUID="3e74dafd-a344-4fa6-a0c9-2527b5b4d62d" CreationDate="2018-02-24T13:47:43.710" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 1 character in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13550" PostHistoryTypeId="11" PostId="2543" RevisionGUID="f1a15f77-216d-4ba0-9101-aebf274261ee" CreationDate="2018-02-24T13:48:00.803" UserId="57" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:4105,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ouroboros&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:2892,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;DukeZhou&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;yannis&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="13551" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3394" RevisionGUID="8b194866-1993-4f2e-a083-c3de1216cca7" CreationDate="2018-02-24T13:55:22.087" UserId="57" Comment="added 3 characters in body" Text="[Pliny the Younger][1] tells the story of a haunted house in Athens, featuring the stoic [Athenodorus Cananites][2], in his [letter to Sura][3]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now the following story, which I am going to tell you just as I heard it, is it not more terrible than the former, while quite as wonderful? There was at Athens a large and roomy house, which had a bad name, so that no one could live there. In the dead of the night a noise, resembling the clashing of iron, was frequently heard, which, if you listened more attentively, sounded like the rattling of chains, distant at first, but approaching nearer by degrees: immediately afterwards a spectre appeared in the form of an old man, of extremely emaciated and squalid appearance, with a long beard and dishevelled, hair, rattling the chains on his feet and hands.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The distressed occupants meanwhile passed their wakeful nights under the most dreadful terrors imaginable. This, as it broke their rest, ruined their health, and brought on distempers, their terror grew upon them, and death ensued. Even in the daytime, though the spirit did not appear, yet the impression remained so strong upon their imaginations that it still seemed before their eyes, and kept them in perpetual alarm. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Consequently the house was at length deserted, as being deemed absolutely uninhabitable; so that it was now entirely abandoned to the ghost. However, in hopes that some tenant might be found who was ignorant of this very alarming circumstance, a bill was put up, giving notice that it was either to be let or sold. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It happened that Athenodorus the philosopher came to Athens at this time, and, reading the bill, enquired the price. The extraordinary cheapness raised his suspicion; nevertheless, when he heard the whole story, he was so far from being discouraged that he was more strongly inclined to hire it, and, in short, actually did so. When it grew towards evening, he ordered a couch to be prepared for him in the front part of the house, and, after calling for a light, together with his pencil and tablets, directed all his people to retire. But that his mind might not, for want of employment, be open to the vain terrors of imaginary noises and spirits, he applied himself to writing with the utmost attention. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The first part of the night passed in entire silence, as usual; at length a clanking of iron and rattling of chains was heard: however, he neither lifted up his eyes nor laid down his pen, but, in order to keep calm and collected, tried to pass the sounds off to himself as something else. The noise increased and advanced nearer, till it seemed at the door, and at last in the chamber. He looked up, saw, and recognized the ghost exactly as it had been described to him: it stood before him, beckoning with the finger, like a person who calls another. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Athenodorus in reply made a sign with his hand that it should wait a little, and threw his eyes again upon his papers; the ghost then rattled its chains over the head of the philosopher, who looked up upon this, and seeing it beckoning as before, immediately arose, and, light in hand, followed it. The ghost slowly stalked along, as if encumbered with its chains, and, turning into the area of the house, suddenly vanished. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Athenodorus, being thus deserted, made a mark with some grass and leaves on the spot where the spirit left him. The next day he gave information to the magistrates, and advised them to order that spot to be dug up. This was accordingly done, and the skeleton of a man in chains was found there; for the body, having lain a considerable time in the ground, was putrefied and mouldered away from the fetters. The bones, being collected together, were publicly buried, and thus after the ghost was appeased by the proper ceremonies, the house was haunted no more. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; Source: [Pliny the Younger (A.D. 62?–c.A.D. 113). Letters. The Harvard Classics. 1909–14.][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am not sure if Pliny's story is the _earliest_ ghost story we know of, but I think it includes all elements of the motif you are looking for.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Lucian][5] also discusses ghosts (and other supernatural beings) in  [Philopseudes][6], albeit in a heavily satirical tone. In one instance, one of the characters introduces the idea that ghosts are the result of a violent death another classic element of the ghost story trope: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;We were only trying,&quot; he said, &quot;to convince this man of adamant that there are such things as supernatural beings and ghosts, and that the spirits of the dead walk the earth and manifest themselves to whomsoever they will.&quot; Moved by the august presence of Arignotus, I blushed, and hung my head. &quot;Ah, but, Eucrates,&quot; said he, &quot;perhaps all that Tychiades means is, that a spirit only walks if its owner met with a violent end, if he was strangled, for instance, or beheaded or crucified, and not if he died a natural death. If that is what he means, there is great justice in his contention.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Works of Lucian of Samosata, Volume III. tr. by H. W. Fowler and F. G. Fowler. Oxford: The Clarendon Press&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Younger&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenodorus_Cananites&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistulae_(Pliny)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.bartleby.com/9/4/1083.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucian&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lover_of_Lies" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13552" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3394" RevisionGUID="7a9cd00a-e62d-4c6f-8b4a-b62fe7d4f717" CreationDate="2018-02-24T14:01:37.707" UserId="57" Comment="added 3 characters in body" Text="[Pliny the Younger][1] tells the story of a haunted house in Athens, featuring the stoic [Athenodorus Cananites][2], in his [letter to Sura][3]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now the following story, which I am going to tell you just as I heard it, is it not more terrible than the former, while quite as wonderful? There was at Athens a large and roomy house, which had a bad name, so that no one could live there. In the dead of the night a noise, resembling the clashing of iron, was frequently heard, which, if you listened more attentively, sounded like the rattling of chains, distant at first, but approaching nearer by degrees: immediately afterwards a spectre appeared in the form of an old man, of extremely emaciated and squalid appearance, with a long beard and dishevelled, hair, rattling the chains on his feet and hands.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The distressed occupants meanwhile passed their wakeful nights under the most dreadful terrors imaginable. This, as it broke their rest, ruined their health, and brought on distempers, their terror grew upon them, and death ensued. Even in the daytime, though the spirit did not appear, yet the impression remained so strong upon their imaginations that it still seemed before their eyes, and kept them in perpetual alarm. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Consequently the house was at length deserted, as being deemed absolutely uninhabitable; so that it was now entirely abandoned to the ghost. However, in hopes that some tenant might be found who was ignorant of this very alarming circumstance, a bill was put up, giving notice that it was either to be let or sold. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It happened that Athenodorus the philosopher came to Athens at this time, and, reading the bill, enquired the price. The extraordinary cheapness raised his suspicion; nevertheless, when he heard the whole story, he was so far from being discouraged that he was more strongly inclined to hire it, and, in short, actually did so. When it grew towards evening, he ordered a couch to be prepared for him in the front part of the house, and, after calling for a light, together with his pencil and tablets, directed all his people to retire. But that his mind might not, for want of employment, be open to the vain terrors of imaginary noises and spirits, he applied himself to writing with the utmost attention. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The first part of the night passed in entire silence, as usual; at length a clanking of iron and rattling of chains was heard: however, he neither lifted up his eyes nor laid down his pen, but, in order to keep calm and collected, tried to pass the sounds off to himself as something else. The noise increased and advanced nearer, till it seemed at the door, and at last in the chamber. He looked up, saw, and recognized the ghost exactly as it had been described to him: it stood before him, beckoning with the finger, like a person who calls another. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Athenodorus in reply made a sign with his hand that it should wait a little, and threw his eyes again upon his papers; the ghost then rattled its chains over the head of the philosopher, who looked up upon this, and seeing it beckoning as before, immediately arose, and, light in hand, followed it. The ghost slowly stalked along, as if encumbered with its chains, and, turning into the area of the house, suddenly vanished. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Athenodorus, being thus deserted, made a mark with some grass and leaves on the spot where the spirit left him. The next day he gave information to the magistrates, and advised them to order that spot to be dug up. This was accordingly done, and the skeleton of a man in chains was found there; for the body, having lain a considerable time in the ground, was putrefied and mouldered away from the fetters. The bones, being collected together, were publicly buried, and thus after the ghost was appeased by the proper ceremonies, the house was haunted no more. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; Source: [Pliny the Younger (A.D. 62?–c.A.D. 113). Letters. The Harvard Classics. 1909–14.][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am not sure if Pliny's story is the _earliest_ ghost story we know of, but I think it includes several elements of the motif you are looking for.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Lucian][5] also discusses ghosts (and other supernatural beings) in  [Philopseudes][6], albeit in a heavily satirical tone. In one instance, one of the characters introduces the idea that ghosts are the result of a violent death, another favourite element of the ghost story trope: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;We were only trying,&quot; he said, &quot;to convince this man of adamant that there are such things as supernatural beings and ghosts, and that the spirits of the dead walk the earth and manifest themselves to whomsoever they will.&quot; Moved by the august presence of Arignotus, I blushed, and hung my head. &quot;Ah, but, Eucrates,&quot; said he, &quot;perhaps all that Tychiades means is, that a spirit only walks if its owner met with a violent end, if he was strangled, for instance, or beheaded or crucified, and not if he died a natural death. If that is what he means, there is great justice in his contention.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Works of Lucian of Samosata, Volume III. tr. by H. W. Fowler and F. G. Fowler. Oxford: The Clarendon Press&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Younger&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenodorus_Cananites&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistulae_(Pliny)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.bartleby.com/9/4/1083.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucian&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lover_of_Lies" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13553" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3393" RevisionGUID="bbabd6d4-3ece-4e8a-bd58-f1422928cad6" CreationDate="2018-02-24T14:10:39.077" UserId="57" Comment="edited body" Text="Well after winning the war against Cronos he and his brothers put 3 gems into a pot and drew one out each Zeus going first getting a diamond for the sky, a sapphire for the sea and a ruby for the Underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;P.S. Hades is the Greek god and Pluto is the Roman. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13555" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3396" RevisionGUID="076845c1-a5f0-42d8-bdcb-f36859efee37" CreationDate="2018-02-24T16:21:34.930" UserId="4271" Text="You are correct in thinking they are the Keres. I clicked on the Wikipedia page you linked and found [Kerostasia][1]/Psychostasia. That means, &quot;[weighing of the souls][2],&quot; a method of divine determination of fate. It was a persistent theme(?) in the Iliad. It states that while Achilles and Hector were fighting, Zeus hung up golden scales, set twin Keres(two fateful portions of death) in them and weighted their lives rather then the fates of the two. Hector's Ker was more, and thus, destined to die.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Warning, opinion!**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It might not have mattered if the Keres were used to represent male warriors as &quot;two fateful portions of death.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Because this is the only one I have found, I would say that this is the only instance in which they were used this way, but am hesitant to do so for a good chunk of mythology has been lost and/or diluted/changed over the millennia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If they were in mythology lost, it would most likely be displayed in similar situations(major mortal wars). Possibly Seven Against Thebes, though I know the first two books(epics?) have been lost in trilogy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kerostasia&amp;redirect=no&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weighing_of_souls" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13560" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1459" RevisionGUID="b5dff3cb-3d10-4962-bcf4-31aec8461b0d" CreationDate="2018-02-24T17:11:42.173" UserId="4105" Comment="added odyssey tag" Text="There was an island, called Ogygia. Apparently, It was an island where Calypso was cursed to stay on forever, because she supported her father, Atlas, in the Titan war. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roughly, where is it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13561" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1459" RevisionGUID="b5dff3cb-3d10-4962-bcf4-31aec8461b0d" CreationDate="2018-02-24T17:11:42.173" UserId="4105" Comment="added odyssey tag" Text="|greek|odyssey|homer|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13562" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1459" RevisionGUID="b5dff3cb-3d10-4962-bcf4-31aec8461b0d" CreationDate="2018-02-24T17:11:42.173" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 201, 57 edit id of 537" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13564" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3398" RevisionGUID="73f709de-fdfb-4e15-b1ce-e1760e990d4e" CreationDate="2018-02-24T18:24:41.907" UserId="4565" Text="In Orphic mythology, Dionysus/Zagreus was torn apart by the Titans:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zagreus, &quot;the first-born Dionysos,&quot; was a god of the Orphic Mysteries. He was a son of Zeus and Persephone who had been seduced by the god in the guise of a serpent. Zeus placed Zagreus upon the throne of heaven and armed him with his lightning bolts. The Titanes, incited by the jealous goddess Hera, sneaked into Olympos and offered the boy a collection of toys, tricking him into setting aside the lightning. They then seized and dismembered him with their knives. Zeus recovered Zagreus' heart and made it into a potion for Semele to inbibe who then conceived and gave birth to the second Dionysos as a reincarnation of the first.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Via [Theoi](http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/Zagreus.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Japanese mythology, both Izanami the goddess of creation and Kagutsuchi a fire god were killed:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kagu-tsuchi's birth burned his mother Izanami, causing her death. His father Izanagi, in his grief, beheaded Kagu-tsuchi with his sword, Ame no Ohabari (天之尾羽張), and cut his body into eight pieces, which became eight volcanoes. The blood that dripped off Izanagi's sword created a number of deities, including the sea god Watatsumi and rain god Kuraokami.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;via [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kagu-tsuchi)&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13565" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3399" RevisionGUID="611760a3-dcd0-4da1-9581-a40d81a6a6b1" CreationDate="2018-02-24T18:49:51.870" UserId="4565" Text="First, the expectation is misguided. Deities are not beholden to their &quot;kings.&quot; This is no better represented than all the Olympians disobeying Zeus by sneaking into battle in the *Iliad*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In real life, Ino-Leucothea was a goddess of the sea that the Greeks venerated, one of many that they tried to ask for good sailing. The sea was notoriously dangerous (see the last paragraph of [Beaulieu's *The Sea in Greek Imagination*](https://books.google.com/books?id=YhLKCgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA24#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false), and many gods and goddesses became associated with its safe passage (including Aphrodite and Dionysus). Sailors needed all the help they could get in those perilous waters, and who better than Ino-Leucothea, who jumped into the water only to become immortal? The Greeks, especially in later times, were fond of cultivating worship of mortals that had become gods by escaping death (or gods that somehow escaped the underworld, like Dionysus), hoping that in saving themselves, they held the key to unlocking salvation for other mortals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ino-Leucothea fulfills both of these criteria. Not only is she a sea goddess, and thus useful in helping sailors cross seas, she was a mortal who escaped death to become a goddess." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13566" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3396" RevisionGUID="738b68b5-66f6-41aa-9f5e-4980ada7c0c4" CreationDate="2018-02-24T18:53:29.073" UserId="4271" Comment="sentance added" Text="You are correct in thinking they are the Keres. I clicked on the Wikipedia page you linked and found [Kerostasia][1]/Psychostasia. That means, &quot;[weighing of the souls][2],&quot; a method of divine determination of fate. It was a persistent theme(?) in the Iliad. It states that while Achilles and Hector were fighting, Zeus hung up golden scales, set twin Keres(two fateful portions of death) in them and weighted their lives rather then the fates of the two. Hector's Ker was more, and thus, destined to die.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Warning, opinion!**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It might not have mattered if the Keres were used to represent male warriors as &quot;two fateful portions of death.&quot; It is also stated in &quot;[Weighing of souls][2],&quot; ,&quot;...&quot;The Keres or φυχαί are represented as miniature men...&quot;'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Because this is the only one I have found, I would say that this is the only instance in which they were used this way, but am hesitant to do so for a good chunk of mythology has been lost and/or diluted/changed over the millennia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If they were in mythology lost, it would most likely be displayed in similar situations(major mortal wars). Possibly Seven Against Thebes, though I know the first two books(epics?) have been lost in trilogy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kerostasia&amp;redirect=no&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weighing_of_souls" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13567" PostHistoryTypeId="11" PostId="219" RevisionGUID="796b1e0e-ac42-4159-9623-0a0f7e243230" CreationDate="2018-02-24T19:07:58.683" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:4105,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ouroboros&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:2892,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;DukeZhou&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:4271,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Andrew Johnson&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:201,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Lauren Ipsum&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;C. M. Weimer&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="13568" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3400" RevisionGUID="8bf6284c-2ebd-4f8c-81c2-61ed931629a8" CreationDate="2018-02-24T21:03:23.507" UserId="4797" Text="This is a followup to: [What is the earliest ghost story we know of?][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this question, I am looking for stories involving mortals summoning the spirits of the dead from the underworld. The spirits should be of mortals who have passed, not gods, demons or other supernatural beings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/3392/what-is-the-earliest-ghost-story-we-know-of" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13569" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3400" RevisionGUID="8bf6284c-2ebd-4f8c-81c2-61ed931629a8" CreationDate="2018-02-24T21:03:23.507" UserId="4797" Text="What is the earliest story of summoning the dead we know of?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13570" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3400" RevisionGUID="8bf6284c-2ebd-4f8c-81c2-61ed931629a8" CreationDate="2018-02-24T21:03:23.507" UserId="4797" Text="|myth-identification|origins|ghosts|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13571" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3392" RevisionGUID="b129b3f3-6a62-4757-97db-5539820e1d07" CreationDate="2018-02-24T21:04:02.537" UserId="4797" Comment="edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|origins|ghosts|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13572" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3400" RevisionGUID="fbb4af2a-0a9a-4668-bed5-21f183bb7ed2" CreationDate="2018-02-24T21:30:45.253" UserId="4797" Comment="added 78 characters in body" Text="This is a followup to: [What is the earliest ghost story we know of?][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this question, I am looking for stories involving mortals summoning the spirits of the dead from the underworld. The spirits should be of mortals who have passed, not gods, demons or other supernatural beings. Also, the story should take place in the mortal world, not in the underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/3392/what-is-the-earliest-ghost-story-we-know-of" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13575" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2543" RevisionGUID="9db86cf2-c8d0-493b-95e5-816d645b8a84" CreationDate="2018-02-24T22:22:54.423" UserId="4565" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="Which gods have been killed in their myths?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13576" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2543" RevisionGUID="9db86cf2-c8d0-493b-95e5-816d645b8a84" CreationDate="2018-02-24T22:22:54.423" Comment="Proposed by 4565 approved by 398, 2682 edit id of 539" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13577" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="3194" RevisionGUID="938b512d-e365-4ef2-baa0-547e86d8d474" CreationDate="2018-02-24T23:29:20.113" UserDisplayName="user1385" Comment="60" />
  <row Id="13578" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="1963" RevisionGUID="af0dd5b0-b23b-4e6e-a34b-0c68c7333e4d" CreationDate="2018-02-24T23:29:48.593" UserDisplayName="user1385" Comment="61" />
  <row Id="13579" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="98" RevisionGUID="19b709e2-e701-4832-82bf-4d4749648fd0" CreationDate="2018-02-24T23:34:48.970" UserId="4105" Comment="added olympians tag" Text="|greek|zeus|olympians|hades|poseidon|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13580" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="98" RevisionGUID="19b709e2-e701-4832-82bf-4d4749648fd0" CreationDate="2018-02-24T23:34:48.970" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 201, 1241 edit id of 538" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13581" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3401" RevisionGUID="6c8ba61a-970c-42a7-9f4f-e1e37302c05b" CreationDate="2018-02-25T02:11:49.733" UserId="4565" Text="I'm not sure about the absolute earliest, but I know two very early stories. The first is from the Bible. In [II Sam. 28](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Samuel+28&amp;version=CEV), Saul, the king of the Israelites, talks to Samuel's ghost:  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Saul told his officers, “Find me a woman who can talk to the spirits of the dead. I’ll go to her and find out what’s going to happen.”  &#xD;&#xA;His servants told him, “There’s a woman at Endor who can talk to spirits of the dead.”  &#xD;&#xA;8 That night, Saul put on different clothing so nobody would recognize him. Then he and two of his men went to the woman, and asked, “Will you bring up the ghost of someone for us?”  &#xD;&#xA;9 The woman said, “Why are you trying to trick me and get me killed? You know King Saul has gotten rid of everyone who talks to the spirits of the dead!”  &#xD;&#xA;10 Saul replied, “I swear by the living Lord that nothing will happen to you because of this.”  &#xD;&#xA;11 “Who do you want me to bring up?” she asked.  &#xD;&#xA;“Bring up the ghost of Samuel,” he answered.  &#xD;&#xA;12 When the woman saw Samuel, she screamed. Then she turned to Saul and said, “You’ve tricked me! You’re the king!”  &#xD;&#xA;13 “Don’t be afraid,” Saul replied. “Just tell me what you see.”  &#xD;&#xA;She answered, “I see a spirit rising up out of the ground.”  &#xD;&#xA;14 “What does it look like?”  &#xD;&#xA;“It looks like an old man wearing a robe.”  &#xD;&#xA;Saul knew it was Samuel, so he bowed down low.  &#xD;&#xA;15 “Why are you bothering me by bringing me up like this?” Samuel asked.  &#xD;&#xA;“I’m terribly worried,” Saul answered. “The Philistines are about to attack me. God has turned his back on me and won’t answer any more by prophets or by dreams. What should I do?”  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Samuel is usually dated between 600 and 550.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another early example of this is in Aeschylus' *Persae*. There, Darius is raised from the dead by Atossa, his wife, because his son, Xerxes, is failing miserably at conquering the Greeks:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lord of Persia's lord, appear:  &#xD;&#xA;Thus involved with thrilling cries   &#xD;&#xA;Come, our tale of sorrow hear!   &#xD;&#xA;War her Stygian pennons spreads,  &#xD;&#xA;Brooding darkness o'er our heads;  &#xD;&#xA;For stretch'd along the dreary shore  &#xD;&#xA;The flow'r of Asia lies distain'd with gore.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Rise, Darius, awful power;  &#xD;&#xA;Long for thee our tears shall flow.  &#xD;&#xA;Why thy ruin'd empire o'er  &#xD;&#xA;Swells this double flood of wo?  &#xD;&#xA;Sweeping o'er the azure tide  &#xD;&#xA;Rode thy navy's gallant pride:  &#xD;&#xA;Navy now no more, for all  &#xD;&#xA;Beneath the whelming wave- &#xD;&#xA;While the CHORUS Sings, ATOSSA performs her ritual by the tomb. As the song  concludes the GHOST OF DARIUS appears from the tomb.&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; GHOST OF DARIUS  &#xD;&#xA;Ye faithful Persians, honour'd now in age,  &#xD;&#xA;Once the companions of my youth, what ills  &#xD;&#xA;Afflict the state? The firm earth groans, it opes,  &#xD;&#xA;Disclosing its vast deeps; and near my tomb  &#xD;&#xA;I see my wife: this shakes my troubled soul  &#xD;&#xA;With fearful apprehensions; yet her off'rings  &#xD;&#xA;Pleased I receive. And you around my tomb  &#xD;&#xA;Chanting the lofty strain, whose solemn air  &#xD;&#xA;Draws forth the dead, with grief-attemper'd notes  &#xD;&#xA;Mournfully call me: not with ease the way  &#xD;&#xA;Leads to this upper air; and the stern gods,  &#xD;&#xA;Prompt to admit, yield not a passage back  &#xD;&#xA;But with reluctance: much with them my power  &#xD;&#xA;Availing, with no tardy step I come.  &#xD;&#xA;Say then, with what new ill doth Persia groan?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Persae* premiered in 472 BCE, so not that long after Samuel." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13582" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3402" RevisionGUID="03201cbe-a1e1-4389-8402-83f78a242880" CreationDate="2018-02-25T02:27:09.180" UserId="4804" Text="Odin is the same as Adon or Adonai of the Jews and Adonis of the Greeks, thus all three cultures descended from the same origin. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13583" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="1756" RevisionGUID="0729ec4a-6bb9-46b2-a2cf-430c008fcead" CreationDate="2018-02-25T04:34:58.610" UserId="-1" Comment="101" Text="{&quot;OriginalQuestionIds&quot;:[129],&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:4105,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ouroboros&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:201,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Lauren Ipsum&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:4271,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Andrew Johnson&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:31,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Robert Longson&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:967,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;bleh&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="13584" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="1485" RevisionGUID="f39e019f-f172-49de-8fed-8c562a912b1c" CreationDate="2018-02-25T04:35:22.797" UserId="-1" Comment="103" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:4105,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ouroboros&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:4271,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Andrew Johnson&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:31,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Robert Longson&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;C. M. Weimer&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:967,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;bleh&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="13585" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2543" RevisionGUID="8c23e144-b4ea-470c-a425-dd0706137dd1" CreationDate="2018-02-25T09:47:16.980" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 19 characters in body" Text="I want to know how different cultures thought a god could be killed. So, I am trying to put together a list of gods who died in their mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So far I only have a short list: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Baldr &#xD;&#xA; - Jesus &#xD;&#xA; - Quetzlcoatl &#xD;&#xA; - Izanami-no-Mikoto.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can you help me think of other gods (from any tradition) which have been killed?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13587" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3403" RevisionGUID="22cf98c1-be66-4015-81ad-e63b11f907cb" CreationDate="2018-02-26T01:14:10.723" UserId="2682" Text="There is a surprisingly modern collective response—or rather, *range* of responses—to this in ancient times. The 3 options listed below define a spectrum which could be described as moving from least to medium to most &quot;in-universe.&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**1. Those myths and legends featuring mind-blowingly extraordinary stuff, such as the gods' trysts with humans, are just fictitious yarns with which the poets think to amuse themselves.**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Much like at present day, there were philosophers who, perceiving themselves as more learned than the generally more illiterate populace, did not much share the classical mythographers' enthusiasm regarding the stories of rather human-like deities colliding with monsters and heroes in the realms of ordinary mortals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Miracle and Natural Law in Graeco-Roman and Early Christian Thought,* Robert M. Grant&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; lays out Lucian of Samosata's position on the matter (on [pp. 71-72](https://books.google.com/books?id=KLFMAwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA71#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false)). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;In his *Lover of Lies* Lucian vigorously attacks the &quot;deceivers&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of antiquity&quot;—Herodotus, Ctesias (the author of the fantastic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Persica*), and the poets, including Homer. They tell such stories as the castration of Uranus (such stories were often under attack), the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bonds of the giants, the metamorphoses of Zeus, and so on. These are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;dreadful and portentous myths&quot;. In opposition to stories of divine&#xD;&#xA;&gt; healings Lucian claims that those who tell them and defend them are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reasoning from false premises; they &quot;drive in a nail with a nail&quot;;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they cannot prove the presence of divine activity. To this objection&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his opponents reply that disbelief in their stories implies disbelief&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in the gods. Lucian answers that on the contrary he worships the gods&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and takes note of their healings, which are actually effected by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; medicines and physicians. Asclepius himself healed men in the same&#xD;&#xA;&gt; way.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Grant is careful to note, however, that in Lucian's time, the 100s AD, this writer was unique for having a perspective as stark as this. For a philosophical viewpoint in this same vein, posited centuries before Lucian, see the section `Centaurs` below. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**2. There is a kernel of truth in these otherwise incredible fictions, but truth needs to be discerned from the silliness surrounding this beeswax. Some of these things happened and some of these creatures existed but not necessarily in the manner related to us by those mythographers.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Oh, and people these days are rascals and reprobates*** [*see more below*]***!***   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [*Description of Greece* 8.2.4-7](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Paus.+8.2), Pausanias offers his own thoughts on the issue by way of his visit to Arkadia [Arcadia]. Lykaon [Lycaon], one of Arkadia's earliest kings, is supposed to have been turned into a wolf by his own grandfather, none other than Zeus, after the god had visited his house for a meal:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;For the men of those days, because of their righteousness and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; piety, were guests of the gods, eating at the same board; the good&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were openly honored by the gods, and sinners were openly visited with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their wrath. As a matter of fact, in those days men were changed to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gods, who down to the present day have honors paid to them—Aristaios&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Aristaeus], Britomartis of Crete, Herakles [Heracles] the son of Alkmene,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Amphiaraos the son of Oikles, and besides these Polydeukes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Polydeuces] and Kastor [Castor].&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;So one might believe that Lykaon was turned into a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beast, and Niobe, the daughter of Tantalos, into a stone. But at the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; present time, when sin has grown to such a height and has been&#xD;&#xA;&gt; spreading over every land and every city, no longer do men turn into&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gods, except in the flattering words addressed to despots, and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wrath of the gods is reserved until the sinners have departed to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; next world.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;All through the ages, many events that have occurred in the past,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and even some that occur today, have been generally discredited&#xD;&#xA;&gt; because of the lies built up on a foundation of fact. It is said, for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; instance, that ever since the time of Lykaon a man has changed into a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wolf at the sacrifice to Zeus Lykaios [Lycaeus], but that the change&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is not for life; if, when he is a wolf, he abstains from human flesh,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after nine years he becomes a man again, but if he tastes human flesh&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he remains a beast for ever.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Similarly too it is said that Niobe on Mount Sipylos sheds tears&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in the season of summer. I have also heard that the griffins have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; spots like the leopard, and that the Tritons speak with human voice,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; though others say that they blow through a shell that has been bored.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Those who like to listen to the miraculous are themselves apt to add&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to the marvel, and so they ruin truth by mixing it with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; falsehood.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his poem *Phainomena*, from four hundred years prior to Pausanias, Aratus expands on this idea of human wickedness resulting in the disappearance of the gods. This divine departure is based on a prediction thereof made by Hesiod four hundred years before Aratus, in Hesiod's own poem *Works and Days*. For more detail on that, see my MoreStories~inUniverse Answer.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**3. *Absence of the deities?! What're you* on *about?* Without a doubt I saw one recently. And yes, since you bring him up, it *was*, in fact, Dionysus.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The gods' escape from the world was definitely *not* the view concerning the behaviour of the deities in the popular culture of the period in question, neither in the Hellenistic period nor in Roman times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is so much so the case that a philosopher contemporaneous with both Lucian of Samosata and Pausanias—who argues that Zeus being so unmistakably human-like as depicted in the arts is absurd—seems to be, ironically, the most explicit source of Roman era sightings of Greek gods, whom he himself claims to have beheld. Grant ([p. 69](https://books.google.com/books?id=KLFMAwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA69#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false)) has the following on him. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A later Middle Platonist, Maximus of Tyre (c. 180), is equally&#xD;&#xA;&gt; confused. On the one hand, he expresses his belief in divine&#xD;&#xA;&gt; omnipotence and proves it by the story that Zeus once tripled the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; length of a night. He states that in his own time Asclepius is working&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cures, and tells of sailors who heard and saw the god **Dionysus**,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; although other sailors only heard him. He himself has seen the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Dioscuri** {*Kastor and Polydeukes, mentioned in the Pausanias quote above*}, as well as **Asclepius**, &quot;not in a dream&quot;, and **Heracles**, &quot;a real appearance&quot;. He firmly believes in the activity of demons {*meaning something more like the Roman* genii *in this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; case*}. On the other hand the Dioscuri whom he saw were shining stars&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (this makes his testimony difficult to evaluate), and he rejects the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; poets' pictures of the gods, which are &quot;credible because of their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; charm, but incredible because of their paradoxical nature&quot;. Other&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stories from the paradoxographical literature are &quot;difficult to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; believe&quot;, and therefore contain an allegorical meaning.   &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;(*With&#xD;&#xA;&gt; my emphases and my {notes}*)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;THEREFORE NOT ABSENT&#xD;&#xA;====================&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The explanation back then was variegated in a quite similar way to questions like these about deities and their activities now: some take them for granted (moreover reporting experiences therewith), and some are selectively skeptical, while others throw them out almost altogether.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The writings and ruminations of the philosophers tend to occupy mostly the timeframe between Herodotus and the early centuries of the Christian era. For the most part, though, during the period you've asked about—between Homer and Herodotus—gods, heroes and cryptids abounded in the world of mortals. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dead Heroes Fighting Alongside Gods at the Battle of Marathon&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most vivid instance of the kind of divine appearances we're looking for is actually attested by Herodotus himself, writing about an event which is supposed to have taken place around the time he himself was born. Together with other ancient writers and artists he has a number of divinities featuring as participants in the **490 BC** Battle of Marathon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Battle of Marathon][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Athenian Pheidippides (a.k.a. Philippides), was sent by his fellow citizens to courier a message for help from the Spartans against the oncoming Persian military forces. A professional long-distance runner, Pheidippides completed the journey between Athens and Sparta the day after he had begun it. Upon his return from Sparta to the Athenians he reported to his fellows that, on his way, while rounding Mt Parthenion near Tegea, he had been accosted by the god **Pan**. The god sent him to ask the Athenians why they did not venerate him, even though he had always been a friend to them and evermore would be so. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The word &quot;panic&quot; is derived from *panikos*, a seizure of frenzied fear specifically inspired by Pan. At the critical point in the Battle of Marathon, Pan appeared and instilled the Persians with *panikos*, thus costing them the victory. In gratitude the Athenians dedicated a temple to the god, performing annual sacrifices in his honour, as well as a [*Lampadephoria*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lampadephoria), a &quot;torch-bearing&quot; relay race.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Constructed around the same time in the Athenian Agora was a building called the *Stoa Poikile*, &quot;Painted Porch.&quot; Contained therein was a mural portraying the Battle of Marathon, with a depiction of the goddess **Athena** and the god **Herakles** fighting alongside the Greeks against the Persians. Also present at the battle was the dead hero **Theseus**, who had been king of Athens at the time that Herakles was a mortal man. In the painting he is represented as emerging from the Underworld, returning from the dead. **Marathon**, a grandson of the sea-god Poseidon after whom the plain of Marathon was named before the time of Herakles and Theseus, was likewise present at the battle. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Writing more than 500 years later, Plutarch says that: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In after times... the Athenians were moved to honour Theseus as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a demigod, especially by the fact that many of those who fought at&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Marathon against the Medes thought they saw an apparition of Theseus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in arms rushing on in front of them against the Barbarians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Pausanias' description of the Stoa Poikile painting, he also mentions a certain mysterious man dressed in rustic attire who used a plough to kill many of the Persians before suddenly disappearing, never to be seen again. Upon searching for him the Athenians were instructed by an oracle to grant divine honours to **Ekhetlaios** [Echetlaeus], &quot;[He] Of the Plough.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;GIANTS&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Regarding the giant boxer Kleomedes of Astypalaia, see the section on `Superhuman Athletes` in see my MoreStories~inUniverse Answer.&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Makrobioi** [Macrobii] **and the Syrbotai** [Syrbotae]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The modern term *Ethiopia* comes from Latin *Aethiopia*, which derives from Greek *Aithiopia*, which was a very fluid term in ancient times, often referring to the region that is now East African Sudan (rather than the country that is currently named Ethiopia) but sometimes to the entire African continent and even parts of Arabia and India, insomuch as these places were known to the Greeks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Homer's time there was believed to be, in Aithiopia, a nation of virtuous people who never died, dwelling in a land of endless summertime and enjoying the company of the Greek gods, who visited them for an annual feast.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later on Herodotus would write of a group of Aithiopes [&quot;Ethiopians&quot;] called the Makrobioi, &quot;Long-Lifers&quot; or &quot;Long-Lived&quot; Ones, because their average lifespan was 120 years. They, he says, were the tallest, most beautiful people in the world. They were also so wealthy that they fettered their prisoners in chains of gold.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pliny the Elder, a Roman writing in the 1st Century AD, says that in the vicinity of the Makrobioi lived an Aithiopian tribe called the Syrbotai, whose average height exceeded eight cubits (twelve feet). Krates of Pergamos, writing a couple of centuries previous to this, is Pliny's source for this people. If Herodotus is aware of the Syrbotai, for his statement about the Makrobioi to be consistent, it would have to mean that the Makrobioi are at least as tall as these 3.6m-tall giants, if not more so.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Kynokephaloi (and the Saint Who Carried Christ)**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going back to the era of Homer, Hesiod writes of the Hemikynoi, &quot;Half-Dogs,&quot; a proud race of Anubis-like people who had dogs' heads and dwelt in the same fluidly-defined region of &quot;Aithiopia.&quot; Later on they were dubbed Kynokephaloi, &quot;Dog-Heads,&quot; which the Romans Latinised into *Cynocephali*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As the Roman Empire became increasingly Christianised, these creatures came to be perceived as devourers of human flesh. By this point they were associated with a region somewhere on the border of Libya and Egypt, from which they were called the Marmaritae and were even said to be gigantic monsters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are two main variant traditions about the legendary St Khristophoros [Christopher], the &quot;Carrier of Khristos [Christ].&quot; In both, he was a giant who lived during the reign of a Roman Emperor, either Decius (mid 200s AD) or Maximinus II Daia (early 300s AD). In the more culturally Latinised Western Christian tradition, Khristophoros was very anachronistically said to have been a Canaanite giant, one of the Anakim who are mentioned in the Torah. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Eastern Orthodox tradition, which is more heavily influenced by Greek culture, Khristophoros belonged to the gigantic variety of the Kynokephaloi. A version of his tale says that he prayed to acquire a completely human form, and his prayer was answered, in which case he became the completely humanoid giant of the Western tradition. Nonetheless many Eastern religious icons depict him, as a full-fledged saint, still sporting his original canine features.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![St Christopher Dog-Head][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Down into the time of Augustinus Hipponensis [St Augustine], one of Khristophoros' fellow Africans, there was speculation about whether creatures like the Dog-Heads had human souls which could thus receive salvation. In the European imagination for centuries thereafter, this region of Africa was presumed to be inhabited by these Kynokephaloi, whom Hesiod says are the children of the earth-goddess Gaia either by Poseidon or by Zeus's Egyptian son Epaphos [Epaphus].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Book 4 of his *Historiai*, Herodotus mentions the Kynokephaloi, locating them in the western portions of Libya together with some ordinary animals, as well as donkeys with horns, and headless people whose faces were in their chests. Pliny calls this headless tribe the Blemmyai [Blemmyae], citing Herodotus' contemporary Ktesias as his source for information on them. The Blemmyai became another favourite of mediaeval European folklore, although the same name was applied also to a nation of ordinary human nomads who occupied eastern Africa before the collapse of the Roman Empire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;IMMORTALS&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Regarding the gods Pan and Herakles, and the goddess Athena, see the section `Dead Heroes Fighting Alongside Gods at the Battle of Marathon` above.  &#xD;&#xA;For more on Herakles, see the section `Theagenes, Born Divine` in my MoreStories~inUniverse Answer.  &#xD;&#xA;Regarding the gods Zeus Ammon and Apollo, see the section `Semi-Divine Royalty` also in the MoreStories~inUniverse Answer.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To speak especially technically, Herodotus does in fact mention &quot;Immortals,&quot; *Athanatoi*, in the *Historiai* 7.31, but alright, to be fair, he *is* referring to an obviously mortal human military unit of the Achaemenid Empire, particularly under Khshayarsha [Xerxes] I the Great, a contingent whose number was always kept numbered at 10,000 men.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;CENTAURS&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *The First Fossil Hunters: Paleontology in Greek and Roman Times*, Adrienne Mayor&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; (pp. 221-222) fleshes out the perspective of philosophers living during and after Herodotus' time:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;*On Unbelievable Tales* was written by a friend and follower of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aristotle known as Palaephatus (a pen name that roughly translates as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;ancient tales&quot;)...&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Centaurs ... were a focus of tension between the logic of popular&#xD;&#xA;&gt; belief in marvels and philosophers' belief in immutable principles of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; nature. Myth accorded Centaurs the status of a viable species.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Empedocles suggested that Centaur-like creatures once existed but died&#xD;&#xA;&gt; out as monsters unfit for survival; later, Aristotle and Lucretius&#xD;&#xA;&gt; vigorously denied that such hybrids could ever exist...&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Plunging into the Centaur debate, Palaephatus ... articulates a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; principle of unchanging species: &quot;If there ever were such animals,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; then they would exist today.&quot; But not only does his statement&#xD;&#xA;&gt; contradict ancient knowledge that some real animals had gone extinct,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his wording leaves the door open for relict Centaur &quot;sightings&quot; and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; atavistic births that would prove their existence in the past... And&#xD;&#xA;&gt; indeed, live Centaurs *were* reported in the Roman era.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An entire chapter entitled &quot;Centaur Bones&quot; offers more reports of live Centaur sightings. As part of it (pp. 239-240) says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[H]ybrid beasts combining contradictory categories (including&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bird-mammal griffins of chapter 1) were singled out by the circle of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; orthodox natural philosophers as impossible. But while Aristotle, his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; follower Palaephatus, and Lucretius heaped scorn on the viability of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mixed species, especially Centaurs, writers like Aelian, Phlegon of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tralles, and others kept an open mind about seemingly incredible&#xD;&#xA;&gt; creatures, allowing the interplay of imagination and skepticism to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fill in the blanks of the unknown. Aelian, for example, wondered&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whether time and nature might really have produced populations of such&#xD;&#xA;&gt; strange creatures, just as the myths claimed. If Centaurs were&#xD;&#xA;&gt; actually once prevalent in certain places and not just figments of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; folklore, Aelian reasoned (echoing Empedocles) that they must have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; been at least a temporary fauna of the deep past.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Palaephatus' authoritative assertion in the fourth century&#xD;&#xA;&gt; B.C.—that if Centaurs ever did exist, then they would still be seen&#xD;&#xA;&gt; alive—was given literal expression in a rash of Centaur sightings in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Roman period. During the reign of Claudius (A.D. 41-54) officials&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in Arabia declared that a small herd of Centaurs still inhabited&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Saune, a remote mountain wilderness infested by poisonous plants.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Despite the danger, one ... was captured and transported to Egypt as a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gift for the emperor. The Egyptians fed the wild Centaur a traditional&#xD;&#xA;&gt; diet of raw meat, but it could not tolerate the change in altitude and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; perished. The Egyptians had the corpse embalmed and shipped to Rome,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; where the emperor Claudius exhibited the marvel in his palace. Pliny&#xD;&#xA;&gt; went with friends to see the spectacle: the Centaur was completely&#xD;&#xA;&gt; submerged in honey (a common preservative for transporting cadavers&#xD;&#xA;&gt; long distances)...&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Nearly a century later, through the reign of nine emperors after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Claudius, the embalmed Centaur of Saune could still be viewed, by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; special appointment, in the emperor Hadrian's imperial storehouse.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Phlegon... who served on Hadrian's staff (A.D. 117-138), examined the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; marvel himself. The Centaur was a bit smaller than what one might&#xD;&#xA;&gt; expect from classical Greek art, he observed, but it had a fierce face&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and hairy arms and fingers. The human rib cage merged naturally with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; equine body and limbs, and its hooves were quite firm.&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mayor herself is convinced that all these preserved remains were artistic hoaxes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;SATYRS &amp; AIGIPANĒS&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Fauns are from Roman mythology. Since ancient times they have often been confused with Satyrs, who did *not* have goats' heads or legs, and were more humanoid (and barely had horns). The Roman fauns were more akin in appearance to the goat-headed, goat-legged gods Pan and Aigipan [Aegipan] (the latter of whom might merely be a form of the former) and the minor nature-sprites called Panēs [Pans], after the great Pan, and Aigipanēs [Aegipans], similarly after the great Aigipan. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Satyr Appliqué][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As in the preceding section, Mayor's book puts the issue quite well (pp. 236-237):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Pausanias remarked that a live wild Satyr from Libya was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; exhibited in Rome, and Plutarch described the capture of a Satyr in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; what is now Albania. In 83 B.C., the Roman commander Sulla was about&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to sail from Dyrrhacium to Italy when his soldiers surprised a Satyr&#xD;&#xA;&gt; asleep in a sacred meadow, a place where fire flowed from the ground.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The creature looked just like Satyrs in art and drama, and, when&#xD;&#xA;&gt; captured and presented to the Roman commander, he uttered a harsh&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whinnying bleat.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Satyr sightings lasted into the early Christian era. Saint&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jerome, a contemporary of Saint Augustine, stated that the emperor&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Constantine (d. A.D. 337) traveled to Antioch to view the remains of a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Satyr that had been preserved in salt.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the end of Endnote 8 to this chapter of the book (on p. 326), Mayor says that &quot;Saint Augustine thought he saw a Satyr, according to Cuvier. Rudwick 1997, 233.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meanwhile Pliny's [*Natural History*](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0137:book=5:chapter=1) has this to say about Mt Atlas in Morocco:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At night, they say, it gleams with fires innumerable&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lighted up; it is then the scene of the gambols of the Aegipans and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Satyr crew, while it re-echoes with the notes of the flute and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; pipe, and the clash of drums and cymbals. All this is what authors of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; high character have stated, in addition to the labours which Hercules&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Herakles] and Perseus there experienced. The space which intervenes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; before you arrive at this mountain is immense, and the country quite&#xD;&#xA;&gt; unknown.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is nonetheless an encounter with something which is described as *both* a Satyr and a *faun* by none other than Jerome, who says that the famous Egyptian hermit St Antony the Great was given roadside directions to an older monk named Paul of Thebes, first by a Centaur and then by a goatish humanoid. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second creature speaks to Antony and even acknowledges Christ as Lord while alluding to the Book of Psalms and the Epistle to the Romans! (*And* this goat-like beast-man can *fly?*) As it happens, Antony's response thereto provides what we could call a fourth explanation of the matter in question, or even a blend of all of the current 3.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Antony was amazed, and, thinking over what he had seen [the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Centaur], went on his way. Before long in a small rocky valley shut in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on all sides he saw a little man with a hooked snout, a horned&#xD;&#xA;&gt; forehead, and extremities like the feet of a goat. When he saw this,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Antony, like a good soldier, seized the shield of faith and the helmet&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of hope: the creature nonetheless began to offer to him the fruit of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the palm-trees to support him on his journey and, as it were, pledges of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; peace. Antony, perceiving this, stopped and asked who he was. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; answer he received from him was this:&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; &lt;sup&gt;I am a mortal being and one of those inhabitants of the desert&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; whom the Gentiles, deluded by various forms of error, worship under the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; names of Fauns, Satyrs, and Incubi. I am sent to represent my tribe.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; We ask you on our behalf to entreat the favour of your Lord and ours,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; who, we have learned, came once to save the world, and &quot;whose sound&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; has gone forth into all the earth.&quot;&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;As he uttered such words as these, the aged traveller's cheeks&#xD;&#xA;&gt; streamed with tears, the marks of his deep feeling, which he shed in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the fullness of his joy. He rejoiced over the Glory of Christ and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; destruction of Satan, and marvelling all the while that he could&#xD;&#xA;&gt; understand the Satyr's language, and striking the ground with his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; staff, he said:&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; &lt;sup&gt;Woe to you, Alexandria, who instead of God worships monsters!   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; Woe to you, harlot city, into which have flowed together the demons of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; the whole world!    &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; What will you say now? Beasts speak of Christ, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; you, instead of God, worship monsters!&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;He had not finished speaking when, as if on wings, the wild&#xD;&#xA;&gt; creature fled away. Let no one scruple to believe this incident; its&#xD;&#xA;&gt; truth is supported by what took place when Constantine was on the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; throne, a matter of which the whole world was witness.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; - [*The Life of Paul the Hermit* 8](http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3008.htm)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jerome goes on to describe the Satyr remains in Antioch, mentioned in the Mayor quote above, at the beginning of this section.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;BONUS(!) CREATURES&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Encounters with mermen (who were called Tritons in Greek myth) and sea nymphs (typically Nereids, who were related to the Tritons via their common ancestor the sea-god Nereus) were as prevalent in Roman times as sightings of Centaurs and Satyrs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pliny says that a delegation from Olisipo (Lisbon) arrived in Rome to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; inform the emperor Tiberius that a Triton had been spotted in a cave&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by the sea. They also stated that a dying Nereid, covered with hair or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fine scales even on the parts that looked human, appeared on the same&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shore. The governor of Gaul reported to Emperor Augustus a mass&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stranding of Nereids on the Atlantic coast, and Pliny himself heard&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from reliable sources that a Triton was sinking ships at night in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gulf of Cadiz.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Triton remains were exhibited in Tanagra and Rome.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Mayor 2000: 231-232&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pliny says there was a breed of (really kool-sounding) horned, winged horses in Aethiopia which were called *Pegasi*. [Aaron Atsma](http://www.theoi.com/Thaumasios/PegasoiAithiopikoi.html) conjectures that they were descended from the most famous winged horse of Greek myth, Pegasus, hence their name.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Horned Pegasus][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By the way, during Herodotus' time and long after, gods were still siring offspring upon mortal women. For much more on that, see my MoreStories~inUniverse Answer.     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notes&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Grant, R.M. 1952. *Miracle and Natural Law in Graeco-Roman and Early Christian Thought*. Wipf &amp; Stock, Eugene, OR.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. Mayor, A. 2000. *The First Fossil Hunters: Paleontology in Greek and Roman Times*. Princeton University Press, Princeton, NJ.&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/My81s.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/VcvsE.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/5e4zL.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/9OmkZ.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13588" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3404" RevisionGUID="cb75001b-7a27-4d1f-be41-e8ffdb4caf69" CreationDate="2018-02-26T03:26:30.073" UserId="2682" Text="&lt;sub&gt;This summarises to my [3options Answer](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/855/what-was-the-explanation-in-greek-mythology-for-the-absence-of-their-deities/3403#3403), which deals specifically with the creatures you cite as examples in your Question, but below that there's some additional material on the topic.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;SUMMARY&#xD;&#xA;=======&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greek deities *did* still show up and participate, in person, in wars among humans in the time between Homer and Herodotus. It was a much rarer occurrence than in the archaic Age of Heroes but it did happen, at least in the popular imagination of later times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There were entire tribes of fantastical peoples and an assortment of fabulous animals detailed by Greek and Roman writers. These writers had so much of the respect of Western Europeans in the so-called Late Antique and Mediaeval eras that numerous such creatures (unicorns, e.g.) were actively believed in by Mediaeval Western Europeans and are still popular in fantasy fiction and children’s cartoons today, even though it might be mostly unknown to the consumers of these art-forms that significant aspects of their material originate in Ancient Greek folklore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The appearances of Dionysos [Dionysus] and Artemis among mortals in the contexts that you’ve described were not mundane sightings to which merely random dudes were privy on a regular basis or anything close to it. Dionysos’ adventures among mortals almost invariably take place before he becomes a full-fledged Olympian god, in the earliest period of his life while he is still roaming the earth, collecting followers, converting hapless cities to his religion and conquering his relatives in India. Once he does this, he gains the full respect of his fellow deities and joins their ranks, after which his adventures and wars are mostly concluded.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Artemis was in the habit of hunting in wilderness areas of mountains and forests, away from human interference. Her most famous hunting story is, to me, evidently an illustration of this. Her own great-nephew the hunter Aktaion [Actaeon] sees her bathing after a hunt and the sighting costs him his life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Having said that, nonetheless, more than a millennium after Aktaion is supposed to have died and after his uncle Dionysos crossed with his armies from Arabia into Africa, the Battle of Marathon took place, with Athens on the defensive against the Persian Empire. This was 490 BC, just a few years before Herodotus’ approximate birth-date. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was held that the Athenians first began to worship the god Pan after this battle because he showed up to assist them on the battlefield, becoming a centrepiece of their victory. Before the battle, Pan had stopped the Athenian courier Pheidippides on his journey between Athens and Sparta to send him with a message to Athens complaining that they did not offer him honours.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Herodotus was still a kid, the poet Simonides had already composed a lyric celebrating Pan’s participation in the battle against the Persians. Eventually Herodotus himself records the story, and, after the advent of the Christian era, Pausanias, Nonnus and Suidas also make mention of it. Nonnus claims that Pan’s assistance to the Athenians was prophesied by Zeus during Dionysos’ war against the Indians several centuries beforehand. Aside from Pan, Athena showed up with Herakles and even the long-dead Athenian king Theseus to help out at Marathon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There were a few superhuman Olympic athletes, all of whom lived in Herodotus’ time. Two of them were the sons of gods; one of them saved a young woman from a ghost which was worshipped in Italy; one was a mad giant with fists harder than stone; and another one was a werewolf. All of them happened to be boxers and nearly all had statues officially commemorating their participation in the Olympic Games.   &#xD;&#xA;[![Caludio boxer][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;For more on them, see the next section `Superhuman Athletes`.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herodotus writes of an entire nation of werewolves in Ukraine and a race of dog-headed people in other parts of the world, among a plethora of other weird and wonderful beasts, most of whom dwell well outside the bounds of Greek territories. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herodotus, Pausanias and Plutarch, who render reports of such supernatural individuals, nations and animals, are each quite skeptical of these accounts, the first of these writers especially so. But other Greek and Roman writers like Ktesias (a contemporary of Herodotus) and Pliny the Elder (who lived much later and who cites Ktesias extensively) seem to possess a more open-hearted interest therein. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ktesias supplies a considerable amount of detail about the populations and lifestyles of the dog-headed people mentioned by Herodotus and before him by Hesiod. St Christopher, the patron of travellers, is supposed to have been one of these part-canine creatures. He was also gigantic in stature, as these monsters were conceptualised during the time of the Roman Empire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For more detail on encounters with Centaurs, Satyrs (and fauns too), mermen, sea nymphs and winged horses (with giant horns like those of a bull, as distinct from the [*My Little Pony*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Little_Pony:_Friendship_Is_Magic) winged *unicorn* [“Pegacorn”] variety), see my [3options Answer](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/855/what-was-the-explanation-in-greek-mythology-for-the-absence-of-their-deities/3403#3403). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Superhuman Athletes&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the 6th book of his *Description of Greece*, Pausanias narrates the stories of numerous Greek athletes, many of whom lived in the generation of Herodotus. Among these contemporaries of Herodotus, four renowned boxers stand out as relevant to the present purposes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Euthymos** [Euthymus]**, the Ghostbuster**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was something like 700 years prior to the writing of Herodotus' *Historiai*, when&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Odysseus, so they say, in his wanderings after the capture of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Troy was carried down by gales to various cities of Italy and Sicily,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and among them he came with his ships to Temessa. Here one of his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sailors got drunk and violated a maiden, for which offence he was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stoned to death by the natives.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Now Odysseus, it is said, cared nothing about his loss and sailed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; away. But the ghost of the stoned man never ceased killing without&#xD;&#xA;&gt; distinction the people of Temessa, attacking both old and young, until,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; when the inhabitants had resolved to flee from Italy for good, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pythian priestess forbade them to leave Temessa, and ordered them to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; propitiate *the Hero*, setting him a sanctuary apart and building a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; temple, and to give him every year as wife the loveliest maiden in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Temessa. So they performed the commands of the god and suffered no more&#xD;&#xA;&gt; terrors from the ghost.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pausanias had also seen a piece of artwork depicting *the Hero* ghost as &quot;exceedingly dreadful in all his appearance,&quot; wearing a wolf-skin and bearing the name Lykas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Book 6 of his *Geographika*, Strabo tells us that the man who became Lykas had been called Polites and &quot;was treacherously slain by the barbarians&quot; in Italy. Centuries afterwards, now in Herodotus' lifetime, one of the local Italians, an Epizephyrian Locrian by the name of Astykles [Astycles], had a son named Euthymos. Pausanias tells us that, according to these Locrians, Euthymos' real father was actually their local river the Kaikinos [Caecinus], &quot;which divides Locris from the land of Rhegium&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the decade following the Battle of Marathon, Euthymos competed in two instances of the Olympic Games and then returned home to Italy. He &quot;happened to come to Temessa just at the time when&quot; Lykas &quot;was being propitiated in the usual way,&quot; of having a maiden sacrificed to him. When Euthymos found out what was going on, he had a strong desire to enter Lykas's temple and to have a look at the ghost's bride. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When he saw her he first felt pity and afterwards love for her. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; girl swore to marry him if he saved her, and so Euthymos with his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; armour on awaited the onslaught of the ghost. He won the fight, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *the Hero* was driven out of the land and disappeared, sinking into the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; depth of the sea. Euthymos had a distinguished wedding, and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; inhabitants were freed from the ghost for good.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Classic damsel-in-distress story motif, complete with a happily-ever-after ending which seems to be in place to explain a practice of Euthymos hero-worship; as Pausanias concludes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I heard another story also about Euthymos, how that he reached extreme&#xD;&#xA;&gt; old age, and escaping again from death departed from among men in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; another way.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Theagenes, Born Divine**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On both of the occasions in the **480s BC** that Euthymos competed in the Olympic Games, a man from the island of Thasos contended against the Locrian hero. This man, Theagenes, was the son of Timosthenes, who was a priest of Herakles Thasios (the Thasian Herakles), although as with Euthymos, Theagenes' real father was said to have been a god. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles had appeared to Theagenes' mother disguised as Timosthenes, and thus Theagenes was conceived. *Theagenes* can be translated a few different ways, all meaning something like &quot;Divinely Born&quot; or &quot;Born of the Gods.&quot; An identical occurrence had led to Herakles' own conception centuries earlier, when Zeus appeared to a princess named Alkmene in the form of her fiancé Amphitryon, and thus impregnated her. A few other feats performed by Herakles in his mortal life are similarly meant as an imitation of Zeus's actions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Theagenes was nine years old he got into trouble with his fellow Thasians for carrying home with him the bronze statue of a god from the marketplace. He was punished with the task of putting the statue back in its place, which feat he managed with ease. In adulthood Theagenes landed into some intrigue in his athletic competitions against Euthymos and ended up having to pay a hefty fine. That story can be found in the [*Description of Greece* 6.6.5-6](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Paus.+6.6). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Theagenes became victorious in competitions at the Olympic, Pythian, Nemean and Isthmian Games, gaining great fame for himself and his homeland of Thasos, as he won up to 1400 crowns. Apart from boxing he also participated in the *pankration* [pancratium], the latter of which is essentially an ancient form of mixed martial arts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After he died, a statue of him fell upon and instantly killed one of his enemies on Thasos Island, for which reason the statue was exiled for murder and, in a circuitous way, this eventually led to Theagenes becoming a deity of healing. The details on that are in the [*Description of Greece* 6.11.6-8](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Paus.+6.11). The last section of that chapter reads:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There are many other places that I know of, both among Greeks and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; among barbarians, where images of Theagenes have been set up, who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cures diseases and receives honors from the natives. The statue of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Theagenes is in the Altis [*at Olympia*], being the work of Glaukias&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Aigina.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Kleomedes** [Cleomedes]**, the Crazy Giant**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In one of the years that both Theagenes and Euthymos participated in the Olympic Games there was another boxer present, called Kleomedes, from the island of Astypalaia [Astypalaea]. Calculating this by notes from the *Description of Greece* translation by William Henry Samuel Jones and Henry Ardene Omerod, the year would seem to be **487 BC**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Plutarch describes Kleomedes as a huge man. The 1894 translation of Plutarch's *Life of Romulus* by Aubrey Stewart and George Long quotes Plutarch as saying that this athlete &quot;was a man of unusual size and strength, but stupid and half-crazy&quot;. Bernadotte Perrin's 1914 translation says that he &quot;was of gigantic strength and stature, of uncontrolled temper, and like a mad man&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pausanias says that Kleomedes killed Ikkos of Epidauros during a boxing-match at the games. Accused of foul play, Kleomedes lost the victory prize and returned home mad with grief. Continuing along with Plutarch's account: now back on Astypalaia, while at a boys' school, by the blow of his fist, Kleomedes broke into two pieces the pillar supporting the roof of the school, bringing down the house upon the children inside and thus killing these minors, whom Pausanias numbers as sixty boys.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the *Description of Greece*, Kleomedes' fellow citizens pursued him, pelting him with stones so that he took refuge in a temple of Athena wherein there was a big chest with a lid. Kleomedes jumped into the chest and pulled the lid over it. Says Plutarch, he was able to hold onto it so tightly &quot;that many men with their united strength could not pull it up&quot;. Pausanias' conclusion to the story goes like so:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;At last, however, they broke open the boards of the chest, but found&#xD;&#xA;&gt; no Kleomedes, either alive or dead. So they sent envoys to Delphi to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ask what had happened to Kleomedes. The response given by the Pythian&#xD;&#xA;&gt; priestess was, they say, as follows:&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; &lt;sup&gt;*Last of heroes is Kleomedes of Astypalaia;   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; Honour him with sacrifices as being no longer a mortal.*&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;So from this time have the Astypalaians paid honors to Kleomedes as to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a hero.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Damarkhos** [Damarchus]**, the Shape-Shifter**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was said that in the secret cult of Zeus Lykaios [Lycaeus], the god of Mt Lykaion in Arkadia [Arcadia], every nine years a group of the cult's votaries would sacrifice a boy and mix his entrails with the intestines of some animals. Then they would separate the part of the mixture which had human flesh in it and cast lots to see who would receive that portion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whoever did so would then have to eat the meat and then take off his clothes, swim across the nearby river and go into the wilderness where he instantly transformed into a wolf. He would remain in this state for eight years starting at that point and if by the ninth year he had not eaten any human flesh then he would become a man again, swim across the stream and rejoin the community on the other side. The cycle would then begin again.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In **400 BC** there was a boxer from Parrhasia in Arkadia who participated in the Olympic Games. His name was Damarkhos, son of Dinytas, regarding whom there was a story that he had transformed into a wolf for nine years, on account of his participation in the worship of Zeus Lykaios, before becoming a man again. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pausanias says that he cannot believe the tale, regarding which not even the Arkadians themselves have any record. Surely, thinks Pausanias, the inscription on the statue of Damarkhos would have mentioned this detail about his life rather than just his name and birthplace.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;However, the transformation was recorded by a Greek writer,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Scopas, in his history of Olympic victors, who called the boxer&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Demaenatus {*Demainatos*}, and said that his change of shape was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; caused by his partaking of the inward parts of a boy slain in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Arcadian sacrifice to Lycaean Zeus. Scopas also spoke of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; restoration of the boxer to the human form in the tenth year, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mentioned that his victory in boxing at Olympia was subsequent to his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; experiences as a wolf. See Pliny, *Nat. Hist.* viii. 82; Augustine,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *De civitate Dei* xviii. 17.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*Sir James George Frazer's translation of and commentary on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollodorus'* Library, *n. 3 on Book 3 Chapter 8*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Just a few decades before Damarkhos, Herodotus writes of a similar werewolf story, set in what is now Ukraine and Belarus. He is unable to take the information seriously, as he reports in his *Historiai* 4.105:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;The Neuroi [Neuri] follow Skythian [Scythian] customs... It may&#xD;&#xA;&gt; be that these people are wizards; for the Skythians [Scythians], and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Greeks settled in Skythia [Scythia], say that once a year every&#xD;&#xA;&gt; one of the Neuroi becomes a wolf for a few days and changes back again&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to his former shape. Those who tell this tale do not convince me; but&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they tell it nonetheless, and swear to its truth.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Semi-Divine Royalty&#xD;&#xA;===================&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In **356 BC**, roughly seventy years after the death of Herodotus, and less than fifty years after Damarkhos' participation in the Olympics, a son was born to King Philippos [Philip] II of Makedonia [Macedonia]. The child would grow up to succeed his father on the throne, becoming Alexandros III of Makedonia, but much better known in English as Alexander the Great. In much more dramatic accounts than those of Herakles and Theagenes, Alexandros was reputed to be the child not of Philippos but of a god. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greeks believed that the Egyptian god Amūn, whom they called Ammon and who was worshipped in Libya as well, was the same as their Zeus, and he was often even referred to as Zeus Ammon. This deity had an oracle in Libya. When Alexandros came to this place the god is supposed to have spoken through the oracle in order to acknowledge him as his own son. Shortly after Alexandros' death there were statues made of him sporting a pair of horns because his father Ammon had the head of a ram.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Alexander the Great as Horned God][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the more Greek versions of this tradition, the king's divine father appears as a dragon (*drákōn*, in this case more of a huge monster snake rather than the winged, fire-breathing variety from modern Western fantasy) which, it seems, is supposed to be Zeus. This is connected to the Orphic story in which a primordial incarnation of the god Dionysos [Dionysus] is sired by Zeus in the form of a *drakon*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[O]n his father's side he [*Alexandros*] was a descendant of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Herakles through Karanos [*the first historical king in the lineage,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reigned c. 800s BC*], and on his mother's side a descendant of Aiakos&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Aeacus; *son of Zeus*] through Neoptolemos [*son of Achilles and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; grandson of Aiakos*]; this is accepted without any question.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;And we are told that Philippos, after  being initiated into the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mysteries of Samothrace at the same time with Olympias, he himself&#xD;&#xA;&gt; being still a youth and she an orphan child, fell in love with her and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; betrothed himself to her at once with the consent of her brother&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Arymbas.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Well, then, the night before that on which the marriage was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; consummated, the bride dreamed that there was a peal of thunder and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that a thunderbolt fell upon her womb, and that thereby much fire was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; kindled, which broke into flames that travelled all about, and then&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was extinguished...&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Moreover, a serpent was once seen lying stretched out by the side&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Olympias as she slept, and we are told that this, more than&#xD;&#xA;&gt; anything else, dulled the ardour of Philippos' attentions to his wife,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; so that he no longer came often to sleep by her side, either because&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he feared that some spells and enchantments might be practised upon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him by her, or because he shrank from her embraces in the conviction&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that she was the partner of a higher power.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;However, after his vision, as we are told, Philippos sent Khairon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Megalopolis to Delphi, by whom an oracle was brought to him from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollon [Apollo], who bade him sacrifice to Ammon and hold that god in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; greatest reverence, but told him he was to lose that one of his eyes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which he had applied to the hinge-gap in the door when he espied the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; god in the form of a serpent, sharing the couch of his wife.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Moreover, Olympias, as Eratosthenes says, when she sent&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Alexandros forth upon his great expedition, told him, and him alone,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the secret of his begetting, and bade him have purposes worthy of his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; birth. Others, on the contrary, say that she repudiated the idea, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; said: &quot;Alexandros must cease slandering me to Hera [*Zeus's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wife*].&quot;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Plutarch, *Life of Alexandros* 1.2-3&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Drakon: Dragon Myth and Serpent Cult in the Greek and Roman Worlds*, Daniel Ogden says: &quot;By the mid 4th century AD the tradition had become so well entrenched that Alexander could be addressed by the epithet *drakontiadēs*&quot;. The epithet denotes &quot;son of a dragon,&quot; incidentally the same thing that *Dracula* means.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In much admiration of Alexandros, similar traditions became part of Roman culture centuries after his time, most notably with the first Roman Emperor Augustus Caesar having been said to be the son of Apollo, who had impregnated Augustus' mother Atia in the form of a dragon.       &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;ESCAPE FROM THE WORLD&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Next after the remarks made by Pausanias on the issue (see [here](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/855/what-was-the-explanation-in-greek-mythology-for-the-absence-of-their-deities/3403#3403), under Option #2), the most explicit example of such a thing as an explanation for the absence of visible deities seems to come from a Roman rendition of something said by Hesiod in his poem *Works and Days*, wherein he provides a breakdown of human history in five stages or ages. The ages are the Golden; the Silver; the Bronze; the Age of Heroes (which was brought to an end by the Trojan War); and the Iron Age, in the last of which Hesiod lived and which apparently continues in increasingly worsening conditions today. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Works and Days* forecasted that later on in the Age of Iron the goddesses Aidos and Nemesis were going to shroud &quot;their sweet forms in pale mantles&quot; and escape from the world and its corruption to go up Mt Olympos [Olympus], forsaking &quot;humankind to join the company of the deathless gods, and leaving nothing but bitter sorrows for mortal men. And there will be no help&#xD;&#xA;against evil.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;About half a millennium after Hesiod, Aratus writes a poem entitled *Phainomena* in which he explains the origin of the constellation Parthenon, the &quot;Maiden,&quot; which is called Virgo in Latin. There was a Titan goddess named Astraia [Astraea], the &quot;Starry&quot; One, whom mortals refer to as Dike, &quot;Justice.&quot; She dwelt freely among the men of the Golden Age in a time of peace when she would gather together the elders of towns in order to share her wisdom with them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then came the Silver Age, which made her reticent about hanging out with humans, although she did continue to meet with them. Finally when the people of the Bronze Age began to use bronze for daggers to rob wayfarers and when they started &quot;to eat of the flesh of the ploughing-ox&quot;, she couldn't take it anymore and fled into the sky, where she is now visible as the &quot;Virgin&quot; constellation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A couple of centuries after Aratus, the Roman poet Ovid takes this up in his poem the *Metamorphoses*, wherein he seems to combine Hesiod and Aratus by saying that it was during the Iron Age, perhaps at its onset, that Pudor, Veritas and Fides (Modesty, Truth and Loyalty, whom the Greeks would have called Aidos, Aletheia and Pistis respectively) were the first virtues or powers to flee from the world. The situation got gradually but dramatically worse before finally Pietas (Piety) was vanquished and Astraea became, according to [A.S. Kline's translation](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/Metamorph.htm#anchor_Toc64105458), the &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; last of all the immortals to depart&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;and &quot;herself abandoned the blood-drenched earth.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ovid's version of the decline of virtue in human society reads a lot more strongly as corresponding to a steady decline in the number of the gods (at least the peace-loving ones) who dwell on Earth. Ovid's connection of this with the time of the Titans (Astraea herself being a Titan) is made even stronger since in his version of Man's Ages, the Golden Age was the best because it was governed by Jupiter's father Saturnus (the Roman equivalent of Zeus' father Kronos). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That age came to an end because Saturnus was ousted by Jupiter, in effect making Saturnus's exile the beginning of the gods' flight from the world of mortals. (The sequel to this story appears in *Works and Days*, as well as in the writing of Pindar, both of which say that Zeus was eventually reconciled to Kronos, whom he installed as king over the Islands of the Blessed, where humans who were deemed worthy of a pleasant postmortem existence would dwell after their deaths.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/wPu7c.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/m6X0Z.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13589" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3403" RevisionGUID="88586f1b-8837-420c-87ab-e704de2e601c" CreationDate="2018-02-26T03:53:07.640" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar, improved formatting, &amp; added info" Text="There is a surprisingly modern collective response—or rather, *range* of responses—to this in ancient times. The 3 options listed below define a spectrum which could be described as moving from least to medium to most &quot;in-universe.&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**1. Those myths and legends featuring mind-blowingly extraordinary stuff, such as the gods' trysts with humans, are just fictitious yarns with which the poets think to amuse themselves.**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Much like at present day, there were philosophers who, perceiving themselves as more learned than the generally more illiterate populace, did not much share the classical mythographers' enthusiasm regarding the stories of rather human-like deities colliding with monsters and heroes in the realms of ordinary mortals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Miracle and Natural Law in Graeco-Roman and Early Christian Thought,* Robert M. Grant&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; lays out Lucian of Samosata's position on the matter (on [pp. 71-72](https://books.google.com/books?id=KLFMAwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA71#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false)). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;In his *Lover of Lies* Lucian vigorously attacks the &quot;deceivers&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of antiquity&quot;—Herodotus, Ctesias (the author of the fantastic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Persica*), and the poets, including Homer. They tell such stories as the castration of Uranus (such stories were often under attack), the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bonds of the giants, the metamorphoses of Zeus, and so on. These are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;dreadful and portentous myths&quot;. In opposition to stories of divine&#xD;&#xA;&gt; healings Lucian claims that those who tell them and defend them are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reasoning from false premises; they &quot;drive in a nail with a nail&quot;;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they cannot prove the presence of divine activity. To this objection&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his opponents reply that disbelief in their stories implies disbelief&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in the gods. Lucian answers that on the contrary he worships the gods&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and takes note of their healings, which are actually effected by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; medicines and physicians. Asclepius himself healed men in the same&#xD;&#xA;&gt; way.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Grant is careful to note, however, that in Lucian's time, the 100s AD, this writer was unique for having a perspective as stark as this. For a philosophical viewpoint in this same vein, posited centuries before Lucian, see the section `Centaurs` below. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**2. There is a kernel of truth in these otherwise incredible fictions, but the real deal needs to be filtered out of the silliness surrounding this beeswax. Some of these things happened and some of these creatures existed but not necessarily in the manner related to us by those mythographers.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Oh, and people these days are rascals and reprobates*** [*see more below*]***!***   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [*Description of Greece* 8.2.4-7](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Paus.+8.2), Pausanias offers his own thoughts on the issue by way of his visit to Arkadia [Arcadia]. Lykaon [Lycaon], one of Arkadia's earliest kings, is supposed to have been turned into a wolf by his own grandfather, none other than Zeus, after the god had visited his house for a meal:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;For the men of those days, because of their righteousness and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; piety, were guests of the gods, eating at the same board; the good&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were openly honored by the gods, and sinners were openly visited with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their wrath. As a matter of fact, in those days men were changed to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gods, who down to the present day have honors paid to them—Aristaios&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Aristaeus], Britomartis of Crete, Herakles [Heracles] the son of Alkmene,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Amphiaraos the son of Oikles, and besides these Polydeukes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Polydeuces] and Kastor [Castor].&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;So one might believe that Lykaon was turned into a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beast, and Niobe, the daughter of Tantalos, into a stone. But at the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; present time, when sin has grown to such a height and has been&#xD;&#xA;&gt; spreading over every land and every city, no longer do men turn into&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gods, except in the flattering words addressed to despots, and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wrath of the gods is reserved until the sinners have departed to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; next world.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;All through the ages, many events that have occurred in the past,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and even some that occur today, have been generally discredited&#xD;&#xA;&gt; because of the lies built up on a foundation of fact. It is said, for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; instance, that ever since the time of Lykaon a man has changed into a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wolf at the sacrifice to Zeus Lykaios [Lycaeus], but that the change&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is not for life; if, when he is a wolf, he abstains from human flesh,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after nine years he becomes a man again, but if he tastes human flesh&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he remains a beast for ever.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Similarly too it is said that Niobe on Mount Sipylos sheds tears&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in the season of summer. I have also heard that the griffins have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; spots like the leopard, and that the Tritons speak with human voice,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; though others say that they blow through a shell that has been bored.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Those who like to listen to the miraculous are themselves apt to add&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to the marvel, and so they ruin truth by mixing it with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; falsehood.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his poem *Phainomena*, from four hundred years prior to Pausanias, Aratus expands on this idea of human wickedness resulting in the disappearance of the gods. This divine departure is based on a prediction made thereof by Hesiod four hundred years before Aratus, in Hesiod's own poem *Works and Days*. For more detail on that, see my [MoreStories~inUniverse Answer](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/855/what-was-the-explanation-in-greek-mythology-for-the-absence-of-their-deities/3404#3404).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**3. *Absence of the deities?! What're you* on *about?* Without a doubt I saw one recently. And yes, since you bring him up, it *was*, in fact, Dionysus.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The gods' escape from the world was definitely *not* the view concerning the behaviour of the deities in the popular culture of the period in question, neither in the Hellenistic period nor in Roman times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is so much so the case that a philosopher contemporaneous with both Lucian of Samosata and Pausanias—who argues that Zeus being so unmistakably human-like as depicted in the arts is absurd—seems to be, ironically, the most explicit source of Roman era sightings of Greek gods, whom he himself claims to have beheld. According to Grant ([p. 69](https://books.google.com/books?id=KLFMAwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA69#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false)): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A later Middle Platonist, Maximus of Tyre (c. 180), is equally&#xD;&#xA;&gt; confused. On the one hand, he expresses his belief in divine&#xD;&#xA;&gt; omnipotence and proves it by the story that Zeus once tripled the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; length of a night. He states that in his own time Asclepius is working&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cures, and tells of sailors who heard and saw the god **Dionysus**,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; although other sailors only heard him. He himself has seen the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Dioscuri** {*Kastor and Polydeukes, mentioned in the Pausanias quote above*}, as well as **Asclepius**, &quot;not in a dream&quot;, and **Heracles**, &quot;a real appearance&quot;. He firmly believes in the activity of demons {*meaning something more like the Roman* genii *in this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; case*}. On the other hand the Dioscuri whom he saw were shining stars&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (this makes his testimony difficult to evaluate), and he rejects the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; poets' pictures of the gods, which are &quot;credible because of their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; charm, but incredible because of their paradoxical nature&quot;. Other&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stories from the paradoxographical literature are &quot;difficult to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; believe&quot;, and therefore contain an allegorical meaning.   &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;(*With&#xD;&#xA;&gt; my emphases and my {notes}*)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;THEREFORE NOT ABSENT&#xD;&#xA;====================&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The explanation back then was variegated in a quite similar way to questions like these about deities and their activities now: some take them for granted (moreover reporting experiences therewith), and some are selectively skeptical, while others throw them out almost altogether.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The writings and ruminations of the philosophers tend to occupy mostly the timeframe between Herodotus and the early centuries of the Christian era. For the most part, though, during the period you've asked about—between Homer and Herodotus—gods, heroes and cryptids abounded in the world of mortals. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dead Heroes Fighting Alongside Gods at the Battle of Marathon&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most vivid instance of the kind of divine appearances we're looking for is actually attested by Herodotus himself, writing about an event which is supposed to have taken place around the time he himself was born. Together with other ancient writers and artists he has a number of divinities featuring as participants in the **490 BC** Battle of Marathon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Battle of Marathon][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Athenian Pheidippides (a.k.a. Philippides), was sent by his fellow citizens to courier a message for help from the Spartans against the oncoming Persian military forces. A professional long-distance runner, Pheidippides completed the journey between Athens and Sparta the day after he had begun it. Upon his return from Sparta to the Athenians he reported to his fellows that, on his way, while rounding Mt Parthenion near Tegea, he had been accosted by the god **Pan**. The god sent him to ask the Athenians why they did not venerate him, even though he had always been a friend to them and evermore would be so. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The word &quot;panic&quot; is derived from *panikos*, a seizure of frenzied fear specifically inspired by Pan. At the critical point in the Battle of Marathon, Pan appeared and instilled the Persians with *panikos*, thus costing them the victory. In gratitude the Athenians dedicated a temple to the god, performing annual sacrifices in his honour, as well as a [*Lampadephoria*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lampadephoria), a &quot;torch-bearing&quot; relay race.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Constructed around the same time in the Athenian Agora was a building called the *Stoa Poikile*, &quot;Painted Porch.&quot; Contained therein was a mural portraying the Battle of Marathon, with a depiction of the goddess **Athena** and the god **Herakles** fighting alongside the Greeks against the Persians. Also present at the battle was the dead hero **Theseus**, who had been king of Athens at the time that Herakles was a mortal man. In the painting he is represented as emerging from the Underworld, returning from the dead. **Marathon**, a grandson of the sea-god Poseidon after whom the plain of Marathon was named before the time of Herakles and Theseus, was likewise present at the battle. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Writing more than 500 years later, Plutarch says that: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In after times... the Athenians were moved to honour Theseus as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a demigod, especially by the fact that many of those who fought at&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Marathon against the Medes thought they saw an apparition of Theseus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in arms rushing on in front of them against the Barbarians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Pausanias' description of the Stoa Poikile painting, he also mentions a certain mysterious man dressed in rustic attire who used a plough to kill many of the Persians before suddenly disappearing, never to be seen again. Upon searching for him the Athenians were instructed by an oracle to grant divine honours to **Ekhetlaios** [Echetlaeus], &quot;[He] Of the Plough.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;GIANTS&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Regarding the giant boxer Kleomedes of Astypalaia, see the section on `Superhuman Athletes` in see my MoreStories~inUniverse Answer.&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Makrobioi** [Macrobii] **and the Syrbotai** [Syrbotae]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The modern term *Ethiopia* comes from Latin *Aethiopia*, which derives from Greek *Aithiopia*, which was a very fluid term in ancient times, often referring to the region that is now East African Sudan (rather than the country that is currently named Ethiopia) but sometimes to the entire African continent and even parts of Arabia and India, insomuch as these places were known to the Greeks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Homer's time there was believed to be, in Aithiopia, a nation of virtuous people who never died, dwelling in a land of endless summertime and enjoying the company of the Greek gods, who visited them for an annual feast.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later on Herodotus would write of a group of Aithiopes [&quot;Ethiopians&quot;] called the Makrobioi, &quot;Long-Lifers&quot; or &quot;Long-Lived&quot; Ones, because their average lifespan was 120 years. They, he says, were the tallest, most beautiful people in the world. They were also so wealthy that they fettered their prisoners in chains of gold.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pliny the Elder, a Roman writing in the 1st Century AD, says that in the vicinity of the Makrobioi lived an Aithiopian tribe called the Syrbotai, whose average height exceeded eight cubits (twelve feet). Krates of Pergamos, writing a couple of centuries previous to this, is Pliny's source for this people. If Herodotus is aware of the Syrbotai, for his statement about the Makrobioi to be consistent, it would have to mean that the Makrobioi are at least as tall as these 3.6m-tall giants, if not more so.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Kynokephaloi (and the Saint Who Carried Christ)**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going back to the era of Homer, Hesiod writes of the Hemikynoi, &quot;Half-Dogs,&quot; a proud race of Anubis-like people who had dogs' heads and dwelt in the same fluidly-defined region of &quot;Aithiopia.&quot; Later on they were dubbed Kynokephaloi, &quot;Dog-Heads,&quot; which the Romans Latinised into *Cynocephali*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As the Roman Empire became increasingly Christianised, these creatures came to be perceived as devourers of human flesh. By this point they were associated with a region somewhere on the border of Libya and Egypt, from which they were called the Marmaritae and were even said to be gigantic monsters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are two main variant traditions about the legendary St Khristophoros [Christopher], the &quot;Carrier of Khristos [Christ].&quot; In both, he was a giant who lived during the reign of a Roman Emperor, either Decius (mid 200s AD) or Maximinus II Daia (early 300s AD). In the more culturally Latinised Western Christian tradition, Khristophoros was very anachronistically said to have been a Canaanite giant, one of the Anakim who are mentioned in the Torah. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Eastern Orthodox tradition, which is more heavily influenced by Greek culture, Khristophoros belonged to the gigantic variety of the Kynokephaloi. A version of his tale says that he prayed to acquire a completely human form, and his prayer was answered, in which case he became the completely humanoid giant of the Western tradition. Nonetheless many Eastern religious icons depict him, as a full-fledged saint, still sporting his original canine features.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![St Christopher Dog-Head][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Down into the time of Augustinus Hipponensis [St Augustine], one of Khristophoros' fellow Africans, there was speculation about whether creatures like the Dog-Heads had human souls which could thus receive salvation. In the European imagination for centuries thereafter, this region of Africa was presumed to be inhabited by these Kynokephaloi, whom Hesiod says are the children of the earth-goddess Gaia either by Poseidon or by Zeus's Egyptian son Epaphos [Epaphus].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Book 4 of his *Historiai*, Herodotus mentions the Kynokephaloi, locating them in the western portions of Libya together with some ordinary animals, as well as donkeys with horns, and headless people whose faces were in their chests. Pliny calls this headless tribe the Blemmyai [Blemmyae], citing Herodotus' contemporary Ktesias as his source for information on them. The Blemmyai became another favourite of mediaeval European folklore, although the same name was applied also to a nation of ordinary human nomads who occupied eastern Africa before the collapse of the Roman Empire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;IMMORTALS&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Regarding the gods Pan and Herakles, and the goddess Athena, see the section `Dead Heroes Fighting Alongside Gods at the Battle of Marathon` above.  &#xD;&#xA;For more on Herakles, see #3, above, as well as the section `Theagenes, Born Divine` in my [MoreStories~inUniverse Answer](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/855/what-was-the-explanation-in-greek-mythology-for-the-absence-of-their-deities/3404#3404).  &#xD;&#xA;For the god Asklepios [Asclepius] and the twin deities called the Dioskouroi [Dioscuri], see #3, above, again.     &#xD;&#xA;Regarding the gods Zeus Ammon and Apollo, see the section `Semi-Divine Royalty` also in the [MoreStories~inUniverse Answer](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/855/what-was-the-explanation-in-greek-mythology-for-the-absence-of-their-deities/3404#3404).&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To speak especially technically, Herodotus does in fact mention &quot;Immortals,&quot; *Athanatoi*, in the *Historiai* 7.31, but alright, to be fair, he *is* referring to an obviously mortal human military unit of the Achaemenid Empire, particularly under Khshayarsha [Xerxes] I the Great, a contingent whose number was always kept numbered at 10,000 men.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;CENTAURS&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *The First Fossil Hunters: Paleontology in Greek and Roman Times*, Adrienne Mayor&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; (pp. 221-222) fleshes out the perspective of philosophers living during and after Herodotus' time:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;*On Unbelievable Tales* was written by a friend and follower of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aristotle known as Palaephatus (a pen name that roughly translates as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;ancient tales&quot;)...&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Centaurs ... were a focus of tension between the logic of popular&#xD;&#xA;&gt; belief in marvels and philosophers' belief in immutable principles of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; nature. Myth accorded Centaurs the status of a viable species.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Empedocles suggested that Centaur-like creatures once existed but died&#xD;&#xA;&gt; out as monsters unfit for survival; later, Aristotle and Lucretius&#xD;&#xA;&gt; vigorously denied that such hybrids could ever exist...&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Plunging into the Centaur debate, Palaephatus ... articulates a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; principle of unchanging species: &quot;If there ever were such animals,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; then they would exist today.&quot; But not only does his statement&#xD;&#xA;&gt; contradict ancient knowledge that some real animals had gone extinct,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his wording leaves the door open for relict Centaur &quot;sightings&quot; and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; atavistic births that would prove their existence in the past... And&#xD;&#xA;&gt; indeed, live Centaurs *were* reported in the Roman era.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An entire chapter entitled &quot;Centaur Bones&quot; offers more reports of live Centaur sightings. As part of it (pp. 239-240) says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[H]ybrid beasts combining contradictory categories (including&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bird-mammal griffins of chapter 1) were singled out by the circle of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; orthodox natural philosophers as impossible. But while Aristotle, his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; follower Palaephatus, and Lucretius heaped scorn on the viability of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mixed species, especially Centaurs, writers like Aelian, Phlegon of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tralles, and others kept an open mind about seemingly incredible&#xD;&#xA;&gt; creatures, allowing the interplay of imagination and skepticism to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fill in the blanks of the unknown. Aelian, for example, wondered&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whether time and nature might really have produced populations of such&#xD;&#xA;&gt; strange creatures, just as the myths claimed. If Centaurs were&#xD;&#xA;&gt; actually once prevalent in certain places and not just figments of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; folklore, Aelian reasoned (echoing Empedocles) that they must have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; been at least a temporary fauna of the deep past.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Palaephatus' authoritative assertion in the fourth century&#xD;&#xA;&gt; B.C.—that if Centaurs ever did exist, then they would still be seen&#xD;&#xA;&gt; alive—was given literal expression in a rash of Centaur sightings in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Roman period. During the reign of Claudius (A.D. 41-54) officials&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in Arabia declared that a small herd of Centaurs still inhabited&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Saune, a remote mountain wilderness infested by poisonous plants.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Despite the danger, one ... was captured and transported to Egypt as a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gift for the emperor. The Egyptians fed the wild Centaur a traditional&#xD;&#xA;&gt; diet of raw meat, but it could not tolerate the change in altitude and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; perished. The Egyptians had the corpse embalmed and shipped to Rome,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; where the emperor Claudius exhibited the marvel in his palace. Pliny&#xD;&#xA;&gt; went with friends to see the spectacle: the Centaur was completely&#xD;&#xA;&gt; submerged in honey (a common preservative for transporting cadavers&#xD;&#xA;&gt; long distances)...&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Nearly a century later, through the reign of nine emperors after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Claudius, the embalmed Centaur of Saune could still be viewed, by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; special appointment, in the emperor Hadrian's imperial storehouse.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Phlegon... who served on Hadrian's staff (A.D. 117-138), examined the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; marvel himself. The Centaur was a bit smaller than what one might&#xD;&#xA;&gt; expect from classical Greek art, he observed, but it had a fierce face&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and hairy arms and fingers. The human rib cage merged naturally with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; equine body and limbs, and its hooves were quite firm.&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mayor herself is convinced that all these preserved remains were artistically contrived hoaxes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;SATYRS &amp; AIGIPANĒS&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Fauns are from Roman mythology. Since ancient times they have often been confused with Satyrs, who did *not* have goats' heads or legs, and were more humanoid (and barely had horns). The Roman fauns were more akin in appearance to the goat-headed, goat-legged gods Pan and Aigipan [Aegipan] (the latter of whom might merely be a form of the former) and the woodland sprites called Panēs [Pans], after the great Pan, and Aigipanēs [Aegipans], similarly after the great Aigipan. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Satyr Appliqué][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As in the preceding section, Mayor's book relates the issue quite well (pp. 236-237):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Pausanias remarked that a live wild Satyr from Libya was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; exhibited in Rome, and Plutarch described the capture of a Satyr in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; what is now Albania. In 83 B.C., the Roman commander Sulla was about&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to sail from Dyrrhacium to Italy when his soldiers surprised a Satyr&#xD;&#xA;&gt; asleep in a sacred meadow, a place where fire flowed from the ground.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The creature looked just like Satyrs in art and drama, and, when&#xD;&#xA;&gt; captured and presented to the Roman commander, he uttered a harsh&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whinnying bleat.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Satyr sightings lasted into the early Christian era. Saint&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jerome, a contemporary of Saint Augustine, stated that the emperor&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Constantine (d. A.D. 337) traveled to Antioch to view the remains of a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Satyr that had been preserved in salt.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the end of Endnote 8 to this chapter of the book (on p. 326), Mayor says that &quot;Saint Augustine thought he saw a Satyr, according to Cuvier. Rudwick 1997, 233.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meanwhile Pliny's [*Natural History*](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0137:book=5:chapter=1) has this to say about Mt Atlas in Morocco:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At night, they say, it gleams with fires innumerable&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lighted up; it is then the scene of the gambols of the Aegipans and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Satyr crew, while it re-echoes with the notes of the flute and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; pipe, and the clash of drums and cymbals. All this is what authors of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; high character have stated, in addition to the labours which Hercules&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Herakles] and Perseus there experienced. The space which intervenes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; before you arrive at this mountain is immense, and the country quite&#xD;&#xA;&gt; unknown.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is nonetheless an encounter with something which is described as *both* a Satyr and a *faun* by none other than Jerome, who says that the famous Egyptian hermit St Antony the Great was given roadside directions to an older monk named Paul of Thebes, first by a Centaur and then by a goatish humanoid. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second creature speaks to Antony and even acknowledges Christ as Lord, all while alluding to the Book of Psalms and the Epistle to the Romans! (*And* this goat-like beast-man can *fly?*) As it happens, Antony's response thereto provides what we could call a fourth explanation of the matter in question, or even a blend of all of the current 3.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Antony was amazed, and, thinking over what he had seen [the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Centaur], went on his way. Before long in a small rocky valley shut in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on all sides he saw a little man with a hooked snout, a horned&#xD;&#xA;&gt; forehead, and extremities like the feet of a goat. When he saw this,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Antony, like a good soldier, seized the shield of faith and the helmet&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of hope: the creature nonetheless began to offer to him the fruit of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the palm-trees to support him on his journey and, as it were, pledges of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; peace. Antony, perceiving this, stopped and asked who he was. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; answer he received from him was this:&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; &lt;sup&gt;I am a mortal being and one of those inhabitants of the desert&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; whom the Gentiles, deluded by various forms of error, worship under the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; names of Fauns, Satyrs, and Incubi. I am sent to represent my tribe.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; We ask you on our behalf to entreat the favour of your Lord and ours,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; who, we have learned, came once to save the world, and &quot;whose sound&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; has gone forth into all the earth.&quot;&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;As he uttered such words as these, the aged traveller's cheeks&#xD;&#xA;&gt; streamed with tears, the marks of his deep feeling, which he shed in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the fullness of his joy. He rejoiced over the Glory of Christ and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; destruction of Satan, and marvelling all the while that he could&#xD;&#xA;&gt; understand the Satyr's language, and striking the ground with his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; staff, he said:&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; &lt;sup&gt;Woe to you, Alexandria, who instead of God worships monsters!   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; Woe to you, harlot city, into which have flowed together the demons of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; the whole world!    &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; What will you say now? Beasts speak of Christ, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; you, instead of God, worship monsters!&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;He had not finished speaking when, as if on wings, the wild&#xD;&#xA;&gt; creature fled away. Let no one scruple to believe this incident; its&#xD;&#xA;&gt; truth is supported by what took place when Constantine was on the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; throne, a matter of which the whole world was witness.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; - [*The Life of Paul the Hermit* 8](http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3008.htm)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jerome goes on to describe the Satyr remains in Antioch, mentioned in the Mayor quote above, at the beginning of this section.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;OTHER CREATURES&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Encounters with mermen (who were called Tritons in Greek myth) and sea nymphs (typically Nereids, who were related to the Tritons via their common ancestor the sea-god Nereus) were as prevalent in Roman times as sightings of Centaurs and Satyrs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pliny says that a delegation from Olisipo (Lisbon) arrived in Rome to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; inform the emperor Tiberius that a Triton had been spotted in a cave&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by the sea. They also stated that a dying Nereid, covered with hair or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fine scales even on the parts that looked human, appeared on the same&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shore. The governor of Gaul reported to Emperor Augustus a mass&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stranding of Nereids on the Atlantic coast, and Pliny himself heard&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from reliable sources that a Triton was sinking ships at night in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gulf of Cadiz.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Triton remains were exhibited in Tanagra and Rome.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Mayor 2000: 231-232&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pliny says there was a breed of (really kool-sounding) horned, winged horses in Aethiopia which were called *Pegasi*. [Aaron Atsma](http://www.theoi.com/Thaumasios/PegasoiAithiopikoi.html) conjectures that these were descendants of Pegasus, the most famous winged horse of Greek myth, hence the name of the African variety of these animals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Horned Pegasus][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By the way, during Herodotus' time and long after, gods were still siring offspring upon mortal women. For much more on that, see my [MoreStories~inUniverse Answer](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/855/what-was-the-explanation-in-greek-mythology-for-the-absence-of-their-deities/3404#3404).     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notes&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Grant, R.M. 1952. *Miracle and Natural Law in Graeco-Roman and Early Christian Thought*. Wipf &amp; Stock, Eugene, OR.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. Mayor, A. 2000. *The First Fossil Hunters: Paleontology in Greek and Roman Times*. Princeton University Press, Princeton, NJ.&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/My81s.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/VcvsE.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/5e4zL.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/9OmkZ.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13590" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3405" RevisionGUID="094afcb3-4399-4f4d-b144-1a81805db3d0" CreationDate="2018-02-26T05:43:32.063" UserId="3621" Text="Where does the belief that humans become angels after death come from? &#xA;&#xA;Who (which groups) have this belief? Is it an idea from other religions that has been incorporated into Christian beliefs? Has it happened to other religions as well?&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13591" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3405" RevisionGUID="094afcb3-4399-4f4d-b144-1a81805db3d0" CreationDate="2018-02-26T05:43:32.063" UserId="3621" Text="Do humans become angels when they die?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13592" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3405" RevisionGUID="094afcb3-4399-4f4d-b144-1a81805db3d0" CreationDate="2018-02-26T05:43:32.063" UserId="3621" Text="|abrahamic-religions|angels|afterlife|syncretism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13593" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3404" RevisionGUID="4aa3abbe-3a0d-4a22-be35-76d2ecf5e532" CreationDate="2018-02-26T08:45:27.630" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="&lt;sub&gt;This summarises my [3options Answer](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/855/what-was-the-explanation-in-greek-mythology-for-the-absence-of-their-deities/3403#3403), which deals specifically with the creatures you cite as examples in your Question, in addition to which summary there's extra material on the topic.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;SUMMARY&#xD;&#xA;=======&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greek deities *did* still show up and participate, in person, in wars among humans in the time between Homer and Herodotus. It was a much rarer occurrence than in the archaic Age of Heroes but it did happen, at least in the popular imagination of later times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There were entire tribes of fantastical peoples and an assortment of fabulous animals detailed by Greek and Roman writers. These writers had so much of the respect of Western Europeans in the so-called Late Antique and Mediaeval eras that numerous such creatures (unicorns, e.g.) were actively believed in by Mediaeval Western Europeans and are still popular in fantasy fiction and children’s cartoons today, even though it might be mostly unknown to the consumers of these art-forms that significant aspects of their material originate in Ancient Greek folklore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The appearances of Dionysos [Dionysus] and Artemis among mortals in the contexts that you’ve described were not mundane sightings to which merely random dudes were privy on a regular basis or anything close to it. Dionysos’ adventures among mortals almost invariably take place before he becomes a full-fledged Olympian god, in the earliest period of his life while he is still roaming the earth, collecting followers, converting hapless cities to his religion and conquering his relatives in India. Once he does this, he gains the full respect of his fellow deities and joins their ranks, after which his adventures and wars are mostly concluded.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Artemis was in the habit of hunting in wilderness areas of mountains and forests, away from human interference. Her most famous hunting story is, to me, evidently an illustration of this. Her own great-nephew the hunter Aktaion [Actaeon] sees her bathing after a hunt and the sighting costs him his life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Having said that, nonetheless, more than a millennium after Aktaion is supposed to have died and after his uncle Dionysos crossed with his armies from Arabia into Africa, the Battle of Marathon took place, with Athens on the defensive against the Persian Empire. This was 490 BC, just a few years before Herodotus’ approximate birth-date. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was held that the Athenians first began to worship the god Pan after this battle because he showed up to assist them on the battlefield, becoming a centrepiece of their victory. Before the battle, Pan had stopped the Athenian courier Pheidippides on his journey between Athens and Sparta to send him with a message to Athens complaining that they did not offer him honours.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Herodotus was still a kid, the poet Simonides had already composed a lyric celebrating Pan’s participation in the battle against the Persians. Eventually Herodotus himself records the story, and, after the advent of the Christian era, Pausanias, Nonnus and Suidas also make mention of it. Nonnus claims that Pan’s assistance to the Athenians was prophesied by Zeus during Dionysos’ war against the Indians several centuries beforehand. Aside from Pan, Athena showed up with Herakles and even the long-dead Athenian king Theseus to help out at Marathon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There were a few superhuman Olympic athletes, all of whom lived in Herodotus’ time. Two of them were the sons of gods; one of them saved a young woman from a ghost which was worshipped in Italy; one was a mad giant with fists harder than stone; and another one was a werewolf. All of them happened to be boxers and nearly all had statues officially commemorating their participation in the Olympic Games.   &#xD;&#xA;[![Caludio boxer][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;For more on them, see the next section `Superhuman Athletes`.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herodotus writes of an entire nation of werewolves in Ukraine and a race of dog-headed people in other parts of the world, among a plethora of other weird and wonderful beasts, most of whom dwell well outside the bounds of Greek territories. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herodotus, Pausanias and Plutarch, who render reports of such supernatural individuals, nations and animals, are each quite skeptical of these accounts, the first of these writers especially so. But other Greek and Roman writers like Ktesias (a contemporary of Herodotus) and Pliny the Elder (who lived much later and who cites Ktesias extensively) seem to possess a more open-hearted interest therein. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ktesias supplies a considerable amount of detail about the populations and lifestyles of the dog-headed people mentioned by Herodotus and before him by Hesiod. St Christopher, the patron of travellers, is supposed to have been one of these part-canine creatures. He was also gigantic in stature, as these monsters were conceptualised during the time of the Roman Empire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For more detail on encounters with Centaurs, Satyrs (and fauns too), mermen, sea nymphs and winged horses (with giant horns like those of a bull, as distinct from the [*My Little Pony*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Little_Pony:_Friendship_Is_Magic) winged *unicorn* [“Pegacorn”] variety), see my [3options Answer](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/855/what-was-the-explanation-in-greek-mythology-for-the-absence-of-their-deities/3403#3403). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Superhuman Athletes&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the 6th book of his *Description of Greece*, Pausanias narrates the stories of numerous Greek athletes, many of whom lived in the generation of Herodotus. Among these contemporaries of Herodotus, four renowned boxers stand out as relevant to the present purposes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Euthymos** [Euthymus]**, the Ghostbuster**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was something like 700 years prior to the writing of Herodotus' *Historiai*, when&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Odysseus, so they say, in his wanderings after the capture of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Troy was carried down by gales to various cities of Italy and Sicily,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and among them he came with his ships to Temessa. Here one of his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sailors got drunk and violated a maiden, for which offence he was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stoned to death by the natives.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Now Odysseus, it is said, cared nothing about his loss and sailed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; away. But the ghost of the stoned man never ceased killing without&#xD;&#xA;&gt; distinction the people of Temessa, attacking both old and young, until,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; when the inhabitants had resolved to flee from Italy for good, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pythian priestess forbade them to leave Temessa, and ordered them to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; propitiate *the Hero*, setting him a sanctuary apart and building a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; temple, and to give him every year as wife the loveliest maiden in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Temessa. So they performed the commands of the god and suffered no more&#xD;&#xA;&gt; terrors from the ghost.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pausanias had also seen a piece of artwork depicting *the Hero* ghost as &quot;exceedingly dreadful in all his appearance,&quot; wearing a wolf-skin and bearing the name Lykas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Book 6 of his *Geographika*, Strabo tells us that the man who became Lykas had been called Polites and &quot;was treacherously slain by the barbarians&quot; in Italy. Centuries afterwards, now in Herodotus' lifetime, one of the local Italians, an Epizephyrian Locrian by the name of Astykles [Astycles], had a son named Euthymos. Pausanias tells us that, according to these Locrians, Euthymos' real father was actually their local river the Kaikinos [Caecinus], &quot;which divides Locris from the land of Rhegium&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the decade following the Battle of Marathon, Euthymos competed in two instances of the Olympic Games and then returned home to Italy. He &quot;happened to come to Temessa just at the time when&quot; Lykas &quot;was being propitiated in the usual way,&quot; of having a maiden sacrificed to him. When Euthymos found out what was going on, he had a strong desire to enter Lykas's temple and to have a look at the ghost's bride. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When he saw her he first felt pity and afterwards love for her. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; girl swore to marry him if he saved her, and so Euthymos with his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; armour on awaited the onslaught of the ghost. He won the fight, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *the Hero* was driven out of the land and disappeared, sinking into the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; depth of the sea. Euthymos had a distinguished wedding, and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; inhabitants were freed from the ghost for good.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Classic damsel-in-distress story motif, complete with a happily-ever-after ending which seems to be in place to explain a practice of Euthymos hero-worship; as Pausanias concludes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I heard another story also about Euthymos, how that he reached extreme&#xD;&#xA;&gt; old age, and escaping again from death departed from among men in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; another way.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Theagenes, Born Divine**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On both of the occasions in the **480s BC** that Euthymos competed in the Olympic Games, a man from the island of Thasos contended against the Locrian hero. This man, Theagenes, was the son of Timosthenes, who was a priest of Herakles Thasios (the Thasian Herakles), although as with Euthymos, Theagenes' real father was said to have been a god. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles had appeared to Theagenes' mother disguised as Timosthenes, and thus Theagenes was conceived. *Theagenes* can be translated a few different ways, all meaning something like &quot;Divinely Born&quot; or &quot;Born of the Gods.&quot; An identical occurrence had led to Herakles' own conception centuries earlier, when Zeus appeared to a princess named Alkmene in the form of her fiancé Amphitryon, and thus impregnated her. A few other feats performed by Herakles in his mortal life are similarly meant as an imitation of Zeus's actions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Theagenes was nine years old he got into trouble with his fellow Thasians for carrying home with him the bronze statue of a god from the marketplace. He was punished with the task of putting the statue back in its place, which feat he managed with ease. In adulthood Theagenes landed into some intrigue in his athletic competitions against Euthymos and ended up having to pay a hefty fine. That story can be found in the [*Description of Greece* 6.6.5-6](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Paus.+6.6). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Theagenes became victorious in competitions at the Olympic, Pythian, Nemean and Isthmian Games, gaining great fame for himself and his homeland of Thasos, as he won up to 1400 crowns. Apart from boxing he also participated in the *pankration* [pancratium], the latter of which is essentially an ancient form of mixed martial arts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After he died, a statue of him fell upon and instantly killed one of his enemies on Thasos Island, for which reason the statue was exiled for murder and, in a circuitous way, this eventually led to Theagenes becoming a deity of healing. The details on that are in the [*Description of Greece* 6.11.6-8](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Paus.+6.11). The last section of that chapter reads:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There are many other places that I know of, both among Greeks and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; among barbarians, where images of Theagenes have been set up, who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cures diseases and receives honors from the natives. The statue of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Theagenes is in the Altis [*at Olympia*], being the work of Glaukias&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Aigina.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Kleomedes** [Cleomedes]**, the Crazy Giant**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In one of the years that both Theagenes and Euthymos participated in the Olympic Games there was another boxer present, called Kleomedes, from the island of Astypalaia [Astypalaea]. Calculating this by notes from the *Description of Greece* translation by William Henry Samuel Jones and Henry Ardene Omerod, the year would seem to be **487 BC**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Plutarch describes Kleomedes as a huge man. The 1894 translation of Plutarch's *Life of Romulus* by Aubrey Stewart and George Long quotes Plutarch as saying that this athlete &quot;was a man of unusual size and strength, but stupid and half-crazy&quot;. Bernadotte Perrin's 1914 translation says that he &quot;was of gigantic strength and stature, of uncontrolled temper, and like a mad man&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pausanias says that Kleomedes killed Ikkos of Epidauros during a boxing-match at the games. Accused of foul play, Kleomedes lost the victory prize and returned home mad with grief. Continuing along with Plutarch's account: now back on Astypalaia, while at a boys' school, by the blow of his fist, Kleomedes broke into two pieces the pillar supporting the roof of the school, bringing down the house upon the children inside and thus killing these minors, whom Pausanias numbers as sixty boys.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the *Description of Greece*, Kleomedes' fellow citizens pursued him, pelting him with stones so that he took refuge in a temple of Athena wherein there was a big chest with a lid. Kleomedes jumped into the chest and pulled the lid over it. Says Plutarch, he was able to hold onto it so tightly &quot;that many men with their united strength could not pull it up&quot;. Pausanias' conclusion to the story goes like so:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;At last, however, they broke open the boards of the chest, but found&#xD;&#xA;&gt; no Kleomedes, either alive or dead. So they sent envoys to Delphi to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ask what had happened to Kleomedes. The response given by the Pythian&#xD;&#xA;&gt; priestess was, they say, as follows:&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; &lt;sup&gt;*Last of heroes is Kleomedes of Astypalaia;   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; Honour him with sacrifices as being no longer a mortal.*&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;So from this time have the Astypalaians paid honors to Kleomedes as to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a hero.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Damarkhos** [Damarchus]**, the Shape-Shifter**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was said that in the secret cult of Zeus Lykaios [Lycaeus], the god of Mt Lykaion in Arkadia [Arcadia], every nine years a group of the cult's votaries would sacrifice a boy and mix his entrails with the intestines of some animals. Then they would separate the part of the mixture which had human flesh in it and cast lots to see who would receive that portion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whoever did so would then have to eat the meat and then take off his clothes, swim across the nearby river and go into the wilderness where he instantly transformed into a wolf. He would remain in this state for eight years starting at that point and if by the ninth year he had not eaten any human flesh then he would become a man again, swim across the stream and rejoin the community on the other side. The cycle would then begin again.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In **400 BC** there was a boxer from Parrhasia in Arkadia who participated in the Olympic Games. His name was Damarkhos, son of Dinytas, regarding whom there was a story that he had transformed into a wolf for nine years, on account of his participation in the worship of Zeus Lykaios, before becoming a man again. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pausanias says that he cannot believe the tale, regarding which not even the Arkadians themselves have any record. Surely, thinks Pausanias, the inscription on the statue of Damarkhos would have mentioned this detail about his life rather than just his name and birthplace.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;However, the transformation was recorded by a Greek writer,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Scopas, in his history of Olympic victors, who called the boxer&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Demaenatus {*Demainatos*}, and said that his change of shape was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; caused by his partaking of the inward parts of a boy slain in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Arcadian sacrifice to Lycaean Zeus. Scopas also spoke of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; restoration of the boxer to the human form in the tenth year, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mentioned that his victory in boxing at Olympia was subsequent to his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; experiences as a wolf. See Pliny, *Nat. Hist.* viii. 82; Augustine,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *De civitate Dei* xviii. 17.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*Sir James George Frazer's translation of and commentary on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollodorus'* Library, *n. 3 on Book 3 Chapter 8*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Just a few decades before Damarkhos, Herodotus writes of a similar werewolf story, set in what is now Ukraine and Belarus. He is unable to take the information seriously, as he reports in his *Historiai* 4.105:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;The Neuroi [Neuri] follow Skythian [Scythian] customs... It may&#xD;&#xA;&gt; be that these people are wizards; for the Skythians [Scythians], and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Greeks settled in Skythia [Scythia], say that once a year every&#xD;&#xA;&gt; one of the Neuroi becomes a wolf for a few days and changes back again&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to his former shape. Those who tell this tale do not convince me; but&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they tell it nonetheless, and swear to its truth.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Semi-Divine Royalty&#xD;&#xA;===================&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In **356 BC**, roughly seventy years after the death of Herodotus, and less than fifty years after Damarkhos' participation in the Olympics, a son was born to King Philippos [Philip] II of Makedonia [Macedonia]. The child would grow up to succeed his father on the throne, becoming Alexandros III of Makedonia, but much better known in English as Alexander the Great. In much more dramatic accounts than those of Herakles and Theagenes, Alexandros was reputed to be the child not of Philippos but of a god. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greeks believed that the Egyptian god Amūn, whom they called Ammon and who was worshipped in Libya as well, was the same as their Zeus, and he was often even referred to as Zeus Ammon. This deity had an oracle in Libya. When Alexandros came to this place the god is supposed to have spoken through the oracle in order to acknowledge him as his own son. Shortly after Alexandros' death there were statues made of him sporting a pair of horns because his father Ammon had the head of a ram.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Alexander the Great as Horned God][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the more Greek versions of this tradition, the king's divine father appears as a dragon (*drákōn*, in this case more of a huge monster snake rather than the winged, fire-breathing variety from modern Western fantasy) which, it seems, is supposed to be Zeus. This is connected to the Orphic story in which a primordial incarnation of the god Dionysos [Dionysus] is sired by Zeus in the form of a *drakon*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[O]n his father's side he [*Alexandros*] was a descendant of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Herakles through Karanos [*the first historical king in the lineage,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reigned c. 800s BC*], and on his mother's side a descendant of Aiakos&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Aeacus; *son of Zeus*] through Neoptolemos [*son of Achilles and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; grandson of Aiakos*]; this is accepted without any question.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;And we are told that Philippos, after  being initiated into the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mysteries of Samothrace at the same time with Olympias, he himself&#xD;&#xA;&gt; being still a youth and she an orphan child, fell in love with her and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; betrothed himself to her at once with the consent of her brother&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Arymbas.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Well, then, the night before that on which the marriage was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; consummated, the bride dreamed that there was a peal of thunder and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that a thunderbolt fell upon her womb, and that thereby much fire was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; kindled, which broke into flames that travelled all about, and then&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was extinguished...&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Moreover, a serpent was once seen lying stretched out by the side&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Olympias as she slept, and we are told that this, more than&#xD;&#xA;&gt; anything else, dulled the ardour of Philippos' attentions to his wife,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; so that he no longer came often to sleep by her side, either because&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he feared that some spells and enchantments might be practised upon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him by her, or because he shrank from her embraces in the conviction&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that she was the partner of a higher power.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;However, after his vision, as we are told, Philippos sent Khairon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Megalopolis to Delphi, by whom an oracle was brought to him from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollon [Apollo], who bade him sacrifice to Ammon and hold that god in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; greatest reverence, but told him he was to lose that one of his eyes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which he had applied to the hinge-gap in the door when he espied the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; god in the form of a serpent, sharing the couch of his wife.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Moreover, Olympias, as Eratosthenes says, when she sent&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Alexandros forth upon his great expedition, told him, and him alone,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the secret of his begetting, and bade him have purposes worthy of his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; birth. Others, on the contrary, say that she repudiated the idea, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; said: &quot;Alexandros must cease slandering me to Hera [*Zeus's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wife*].&quot;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Plutarch, *Life of Alexandros* 1.2-3&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Drakon: Dragon Myth and Serpent Cult in the Greek and Roman Worlds*, Daniel Ogden says: &quot;By the mid 4th century AD the tradition had become so well entrenched that Alexander could be addressed by the epithet *drakontiadēs*&quot;. The epithet denotes &quot;son of a dragon,&quot; incidentally the same thing that *Dracula* means.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In much admiration of Alexandros, similar traditions became part of Roman culture centuries after his time, most notably with the first Roman Emperor Augustus Caesar having been said to be the son of Apollo, who had impregnated Augustus' mother Atia in the form of a dragon.       &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;ESCAPE FROM THE WORLD&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Next after the remarks made by Pausanias on the issue (see [here](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/855/what-was-the-explanation-in-greek-mythology-for-the-absence-of-their-deities/3403#3403), under Option #2), the most explicit example of such a thing as an explanation for the absence of visible deities seems to come from a Roman rendition of something said by Hesiod in his poem *Works and Days*, wherein he provides a breakdown of human history in five stages or ages. The ages are the Golden; the Silver; the Bronze; the Age of Heroes (which was brought to an end by the Trojan War); and the Iron Age, in the last of which Hesiod lived and which apparently continues in increasingly worsening conditions today. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Works and Days* forecasted that later on in the Age of Iron the goddesses Aidos and Nemesis were going to shroud &quot;their sweet forms in pale mantles&quot; and escape from the world and its corruption to go up Mt Olympos [Olympus], forsaking &quot;humankind to join the company of the deathless gods, and leaving nothing but bitter sorrows for mortal men. And there will be no help&#xD;&#xA;against evil.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;About half a millennium after Hesiod, Aratus writes a poem entitled *Phainomena* in which he explains the origin of the constellation Parthenon, the &quot;Maiden,&quot; which is called Virgo in Latin. There was a Titan goddess named Astraia [Astraea], the &quot;Starry&quot; One, whom mortals refer to as Dike, &quot;Justice.&quot; She dwelt freely among the men of the Golden Age in a time of peace when she would gather together the elders of towns in order to share her wisdom with them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then came the Silver Age, which made her reticent about hanging out with humans, although she did continue to meet with them. Finally when the people of the Bronze Age began to use bronze for daggers to rob wayfarers and when they started &quot;to eat of the flesh of the ploughing-ox&quot;, she couldn't take it anymore and fled into the sky, where she is now visible as the &quot;Virgin&quot; constellation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A couple of centuries after Aratus, the Roman poet Ovid takes this up in his poem the *Metamorphoses*, wherein he seems to combine Hesiod and Aratus by saying that it was during the Iron Age, perhaps at its onset, that Pudor, Veritas and Fides (Modesty, Truth and Loyalty, whom the Greeks would have called Aidos, Aletheia and Pistis respectively) were the first virtues or powers to flee from the world. The situation got gradually but dramatically worse before finally Pietas (Piety) was vanquished and Astraea became, according to [A.S. Kline's translation](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/Metamorph.htm#anchor_Toc64105458), the &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; last of all the immortals to depart&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;and &quot;herself abandoned the blood-drenched earth.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ovid's version of the decline of virtue in human society reads a lot more strongly as corresponding to a steady decline in the number of the gods (at least the peace-loving ones) who dwell on Earth. Ovid's connection of this with the time of the Titans (Astraea herself being a Titan) is made even stronger since in his version of Man's Ages, the Golden Age was the best because it was governed by Jupiter's father Saturnus (the Roman equivalent of Zeus' father Kronos). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That age came to an end because Saturnus was ousted by Jupiter, in effect making Saturnus's exile the beginning of the gods' flight from the world of mortals. (The sequel to this story appears in *Works and Days*, as well as in the writing of Pindar, both of which say that Zeus was eventually reconciled to Kronos, whom he installed as king over the Islands of the Blessed, where humans who were deemed worthy of a pleasant postmortem existence would dwell after their deaths.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/wPu7c.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/m6X0Z.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13594" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3403" RevisionGUID="626c5978-d082-4e81-874e-9426098ba277" CreationDate="2018-02-26T08:50:35.767" UserId="2682" Comment="added a detail" Text="There is a surprisingly modern collective response—or rather, *range* of responses—to this in ancient times. The 3 options listed below define a spectrum which could be described as moving from least to medium to most &quot;in-universe.&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**1. Those myths and legends featuring mind-blowingly extraordinary stuff, such as the gods' trysts with humans, are just fictitious yarns with which the poets think to amuse themselves.**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Much like at present day, there were philosophers who, perceiving themselves as more learned than the generally more illiterate populace, did not much share the classical mythographers' enthusiasm regarding the stories of rather human-like deities colliding with monsters and heroes in the realms of ordinary mortals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Miracle and Natural Law in Graeco-Roman and Early Christian Thought,* Robert M. Grant&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; lays out Lucian of Samosata's position on the matter (on [pp. 71-72](https://books.google.com/books?id=KLFMAwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA71#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false)). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;In his *Lover of Lies* Lucian vigorously attacks the &quot;deceivers&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of antiquity&quot;—Herodotus, Ctesias (the author of the fantastic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Persica*), and the poets, including Homer. They tell such stories as the castration of Uranus (such stories were often under attack), the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bonds of the giants, the metamorphoses of Zeus, and so on. These are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;dreadful and portentous myths&quot;. In opposition to stories of divine&#xD;&#xA;&gt; healings Lucian claims that those who tell them and defend them are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reasoning from false premises; they &quot;drive in a nail with a nail&quot;;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they cannot prove the presence of divine activity. To this objection&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his opponents reply that disbelief in their stories implies disbelief&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in the gods. Lucian answers that on the contrary he worships the gods&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and takes note of their healings, which are actually effected by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; medicines and physicians. Asclepius himself healed men in the same&#xD;&#xA;&gt; way.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Grant is careful to note, however, that in Lucian's time, the 100s AD, this writer was unique for having a perspective as stark as this. For a philosophical viewpoint in this same vein, posited centuries before Lucian, see the section `Centaurs` below. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**2. There is a kernel of truth in these otherwise incredible fictions, but the real deal needs to be filtered out of the silliness surrounding this beeswax. Some of these things happened and some of these creatures existed but not necessarily in the manner related to us by those mythographers.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Oh, and people these days are rascals and reprobates*** [*see more below*]***!***   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [*Description of Greece* 8.2.4-7](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Paus.+8.2), Pausanias offers his own thoughts on the issue by way of his visit to Arkadia [Arcadia]. Lykaon [Lycaon], one of Arkadia's earliest kings, is supposed to have been turned into a wolf by his own grandfather, none other than Zeus, after the god had visited his house for a meal:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;For the men of those days, because of their righteousness and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; piety, were guests of the gods, eating at the same board; the good&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were openly honored by the gods, and sinners were openly visited with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their wrath. As a matter of fact, in those days men were changed to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gods, who down to the present day have honors paid to them—Aristaios&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Aristaeus], Britomartis of Crete, Herakles [Heracles] the son of Alkmene,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Amphiaraos the son of Oikles, and besides these Polydeukes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Polydeuces] and Kastor [Castor].&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;So one might believe that Lykaon was turned into a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beast, and Niobe, the daughter of Tantalos, into a stone. But at the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; present time, when sin has grown to such a height and has been&#xD;&#xA;&gt; spreading over every land and every city, no longer do men turn into&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gods, except in the flattering words addressed to despots, and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wrath of the gods is reserved until the sinners have departed to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; next world.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;All through the ages, many events that have occurred in the past,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and even some that occur today, have been generally discredited&#xD;&#xA;&gt; because of the lies built up on a foundation of fact. It is said, for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; instance, that ever since the time of Lykaon a man has changed into a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wolf at the sacrifice to Zeus Lykaios [Lycaeus], but that the change&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is not for life; if, when he is a wolf, he abstains from human flesh,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after nine years he becomes a man again, but if he tastes human flesh&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he remains a beast for ever.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Similarly too it is said that Niobe on Mount Sipylos sheds tears&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in the season of summer. I have also heard that the griffins have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; spots like the leopard, and that the Tritons speak with human voice,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; though others say that they blow through a shell that has been bored.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Those who like to listen to the miraculous are themselves apt to add&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to the marvel, and so they ruin truth by mixing it with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; falsehood.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his poem *Phainomena*, from four hundred years prior to Pausanias, Aratus expands on this idea of human wickedness resulting in the disappearance of the gods. This divine departure is based on a prediction made thereof by Hesiod four hundred years before Aratus, in Hesiod's own poem *Works and Days*. For more detail on that, see my [MoreStories~inUniverse Answer](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/855/what-was-the-explanation-in-greek-mythology-for-the-absence-of-their-deities/3404#3404).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**3. *Absence of the deities?! What're you* on *about?* Without a doubt I saw one recently. And yes, since you bring him up, it *was*, in fact, Dionysus.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The gods' escape from the world was definitely *not* the view concerning the behaviour of the deities in the popular culture of the period in question, neither in the Hellenistic period nor in Roman times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is so much so the case that a philosopher contemporaneous with both Lucian of Samosata and Pausanias—who argues that Zeus being so unmistakably human-like as depicted in the arts is absurd—seems to be, ironically, the most explicit source of Roman era sightings of Greek gods, whom he himself claims to have beheld. According to Grant ([p. 69](https://books.google.com/books?id=KLFMAwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA69#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false)): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A later Middle Platonist, Maximus of Tyre (c. 180), is equally&#xD;&#xA;&gt; confused. On the one hand, he expresses his belief in divine&#xD;&#xA;&gt; omnipotence and proves it by the story that Zeus once tripled the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; length of a night. He states that in his own time Asclepius is working&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cures, and tells of sailors who heard and saw the god **Dionysus**,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; although other sailors only heard him. He himself has seen the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Dioscuri** {*Kastor and Polydeukes, mentioned in the Pausanias quote above*}, as well as **Asclepius**, &quot;not in a dream&quot;, and **Heracles**, &quot;a real appearance&quot;. He firmly believes in the activity of demons {*meaning something more like the Roman* genii *in this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; case*}. On the other hand the Dioscuri whom he saw were shining stars&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (this makes his testimony difficult to evaluate), and he rejects the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; poets' pictures of the gods, which are &quot;credible because of their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; charm, but incredible because of their paradoxical nature&quot;. Other&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stories from the paradoxographical literature are &quot;difficult to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; believe&quot;, and therefore contain an allegorical meaning.   &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;(*With&#xD;&#xA;&gt; my emphases and my {notes}*)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;THEREFORE NOT ABSENT&#xD;&#xA;====================&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The explanation back then was variegated in a quite similar way to questions like these about deities and their activities now: some take them for granted (moreover reporting experiences therewith), and some are selectively skeptical, while others throw them out almost altogether.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The writings and ruminations of the philosophers tend to occupy mostly the timeframe between Herodotus and the early centuries of the Christian era. For the most part, though, during the period you've asked about—between Homer and Herodotus—gods, heroes and cryptids abounded in the world of mortals. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dead Heroes Fighting Alongside Gods at the Battle of Marathon&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most vivid instance of the kind of divine appearances we're looking for is actually attested by Herodotus himself, writing about an event which is supposed to have taken place around the time he himself was born. Together with other ancient writers and artists he has a number of divinities featuring as participants in the **490 BC** Battle of Marathon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Battle of Marathon][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Athenian Pheidippides (a.k.a. Philippides), was sent by his fellow citizens to courier a message for help from the Spartans against the oncoming Persian military forces. A professional long-distance runner, Pheidippides completed the journey between Athens and Sparta the day after he had begun it. Upon his return from Sparta to the Athenians he reported to his fellows that, on his way, while rounding Mt Parthenion near Tegea, he had been accosted by the god **Pan**. The god sent him to ask the Athenians why they did not venerate him, even though he had always been a friend to them and evermore would be so. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The word &quot;panic&quot; is derived from *panikos*, a seizure of frenzied fear specifically inspired by Pan. At the critical point in the Battle of Marathon, Pan appeared and instilled the Persians with *panikos*, thus costing them the victory. In gratitude the Athenians dedicated a temple to the god, performing annual sacrifices in his honour, as well as a [*Lampadephoria*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lampadephoria), a &quot;torch-bearing&quot; relay race.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Constructed around the same time in the Athenian Agora was a building called the *Stoa Poikile*, &quot;Painted Porch.&quot; Contained therein was a mural portraying the Battle of Marathon, with a depiction of the goddess **Athena** and the god **Herakles** fighting alongside the Greeks against the Persians. Also present at the battle was the dead hero **Theseus**, who had been king of Athens at the time that Herakles was a mortal man. In the painting he is represented as emerging from the Underworld, returning from the dead. **Marathon**, a grandson of the sea-god Poseidon after whom the plain of Marathon was named before the time of Herakles and Theseus, was likewise present at the battle. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Writing more than 500 years later, Plutarch says that: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In after times... the Athenians were moved to honour Theseus as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a demigod, especially by the fact that many of those who fought at&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Marathon against the Medes thought they saw an apparition of Theseus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in arms rushing on in front of them against the Barbarians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Pausanias' description of the Stoa Poikile painting, he also mentions a certain mysterious man dressed in rustic attire who used a plough to kill many of the Persians before suddenly disappearing, never to be seen again. Upon searching for him the Athenians were instructed by an oracle to grant divine honours to **Ekhetlaios** [Echetlaeus], &quot;[He] Of the Plough.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;GIANTS&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Regarding the giant boxer Kleomedes of Astypalaia, see the section on `Superhuman Athletes` in see my MoreStories~inUniverse Answer.&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Makrobioi** [Macrobii] **and the Syrbotai** [Syrbotae]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The modern term *Ethiopia* comes from Latin *Aethiopia*, which derives from Greek *Aithiopia*, which was a very fluid term in ancient times, often referring to the region that is now East African Sudan (rather than the country that is currently named Ethiopia) but sometimes to the entire African continent and even parts of Arabia and India, insomuch as these places were known to the Greeks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Homer's time there was believed to be, in Aithiopia, a nation of virtuous people who never died, dwelling in a land of endless summertime and enjoying the company of the Greek gods, who visited them for an annual feast.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later on Herodotus would write of a group of Aithiopes [&quot;Ethiopians&quot;] called the Makrobioi, &quot;Long-Lifers&quot; or &quot;Long-Lived&quot; Ones, because their average lifespan was 120 years. They, he says, were the tallest, most beautiful people in the world. They were also so wealthy that they fettered their prisoners in chains of gold.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pliny the Elder, a Roman writing in the 1st Century AD, says that in the vicinity of the Makrobioi lived an Aithiopian tribe called the Syrbotai, whose average height exceeded eight cubits (twelve feet). Krates of Pergamos, writing a couple of centuries previous to this, is Pliny's source for this people. If Herodotus is aware of the Syrbotai, for his statement about the Makrobioi to be consistent, it would have to mean that the Makrobioi are at least as tall as these 3.6m-tall giants, if not more so.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Kynokephaloi (and the Saint Who Carried Christ)**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going back to the era of Homer, Hesiod writes of the Hemikynoi, &quot;Half-Dogs,&quot; a proud race of Anubis-like people who had dogs' heads and dwelt in the same fluidly-defined region of &quot;Aithiopia.&quot; Later on they were dubbed Kynokephaloi, &quot;Dog-Heads,&quot; which the Romans Latinised into *Cynocephali*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As the Roman Empire became increasingly Christianised, these creatures came to be perceived as devourers of human flesh. By this point they were associated with a region somewhere on the border of Libya and Egypt, from which they were called the Marmaritae and were even said to be gigantic monsters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are two main variant traditions about the legendary St Khristophoros [Christopher], the &quot;Carrier of Khristos [Christ].&quot; In both, he was a giant who lived during the reign of a Roman Emperor, either Decius (mid 200s AD) or Maximinus II Daia (early 300s AD). In the more culturally Latinised Western Christian tradition, Khristophoros was very anachronistically said to have been a Canaanite giant, one of the Anakim who are mentioned in the Torah. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Eastern Orthodox tradition, which is more heavily influenced by Greek culture, Khristophoros belonged to the gigantic variety of the Kynokephaloi. A version of his tale says that he prayed to acquire a completely human form, and his prayer was answered, in which case he became the completely humanoid giant of the Western tradition. Nonetheless many Eastern religious icons depict him, as a full-fledged saint, still sporting his original canine features.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![St Christopher Dog-Head][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Down into the time of Augustinus Hipponensis [St Augustine], one of Khristophoros' fellow Africans, there was speculation about whether creatures like the Dog-Heads had human souls which could thus receive salvation. In the European imagination for centuries thereafter, this region of Africa was presumed to be inhabited by these Kynokephaloi, whom Hesiod says are the children of the earth-goddess Gaia either by Poseidon or by Zeus's Egyptian son Epaphos [Epaphus].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Book 4 of his *Historiai*, Herodotus mentions the Kynokephaloi, locating them in the western portions of Libya together with some ordinary animals, as well as donkeys with horns, and headless people whose faces were in their chests. Pliny calls this headless tribe the Blemmyai [Blemmyae], citing Herodotus' contemporary Ktesias as his source for information on them. The Blemmyai became another favourite of mediaeval European folklore, although the same name was applied also to a nation of ordinary human nomads who occupied eastern Africa before the collapse of the Roman Empire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;IMMORTALS&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Regarding the gods Pan and Herakles, and the goddess Athena, see the section `Dead Heroes Fighting Alongside Gods at the Battle of Marathon` above.  &#xD;&#xA;For more on Herakles, see #3, above, as well as the section `Theagenes, Born Divine` in my [MoreStories~inUniverse Answer](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/855/what-was-the-explanation-in-greek-mythology-for-the-absence-of-their-deities/3404#3404), as well as, in that same Answer, the section `Euthymos, the Ghostbuster` for the river-god Kaikinos [Caecinus].  &#xD;&#xA;For the god Asklepios [Asclepius] and the twin deities called the Dioskouroi [Dioscuri], see #3, above, again.     &#xD;&#xA;Regarding the gods Zeus Ammon and Apollo, see the section `Semi-Divine Royalty` also in the [MoreStories~inUniverse Answer](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/855/what-was-the-explanation-in-greek-mythology-for-the-absence-of-their-deities/3404#3404).&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To speak especially technically, Herodotus does in fact mention &quot;Immortals,&quot; *Athanatoi*, in the *Historiai* 7.31, but alright, to be fair, he *is* referring to an obviously mortal human military unit of the Achaemenid Empire, particularly under Khshayarsha [Xerxes] I the Great, a contingent whose number was always kept numbered at 10,000 men.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;CENTAURS&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *The First Fossil Hunters: Paleontology in Greek and Roman Times*, Adrienne Mayor&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; (pp. 221-222) fleshes out the perspective of philosophers living during and after Herodotus' time:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;*On Unbelievable Tales* was written by a friend and follower of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aristotle known as Palaephatus (a pen name that roughly translates as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;ancient tales&quot;)...&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Centaurs ... were a focus of tension between the logic of popular&#xD;&#xA;&gt; belief in marvels and philosophers' belief in immutable principles of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; nature. Myth accorded Centaurs the status of a viable species.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Empedocles suggested that Centaur-like creatures once existed but died&#xD;&#xA;&gt; out as monsters unfit for survival; later, Aristotle and Lucretius&#xD;&#xA;&gt; vigorously denied that such hybrids could ever exist...&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Plunging into the Centaur debate, Palaephatus ... articulates a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; principle of unchanging species: &quot;If there ever were such animals,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; then they would exist today.&quot; But not only does his statement&#xD;&#xA;&gt; contradict ancient knowledge that some real animals had gone extinct,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his wording leaves the door open for relict Centaur &quot;sightings&quot; and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; atavistic births that would prove their existence in the past... And&#xD;&#xA;&gt; indeed, live Centaurs *were* reported in the Roman era.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An entire chapter entitled &quot;Centaur Bones&quot; offers more reports of live Centaur sightings. As part of it (pp. 239-240) says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[H]ybrid beasts combining contradictory categories (including&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bird-mammal griffins of chapter 1) were singled out by the circle of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; orthodox natural philosophers as impossible. But while Aristotle, his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; follower Palaephatus, and Lucretius heaped scorn on the viability of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mixed species, especially Centaurs, writers like Aelian, Phlegon of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tralles, and others kept an open mind about seemingly incredible&#xD;&#xA;&gt; creatures, allowing the interplay of imagination and skepticism to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fill in the blanks of the unknown. Aelian, for example, wondered&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whether time and nature might really have produced populations of such&#xD;&#xA;&gt; strange creatures, just as the myths claimed. If Centaurs were&#xD;&#xA;&gt; actually once prevalent in certain places and not just figments of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; folklore, Aelian reasoned (echoing Empedocles) that they must have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; been at least a temporary fauna of the deep past.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Palaephatus' authoritative assertion in the fourth century&#xD;&#xA;&gt; B.C.—that if Centaurs ever did exist, then they would still be seen&#xD;&#xA;&gt; alive—was given literal expression in a rash of Centaur sightings in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Roman period. During the reign of Claudius (A.D. 41-54) officials&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in Arabia declared that a small herd of Centaurs still inhabited&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Saune, a remote mountain wilderness infested by poisonous plants.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Despite the danger, one ... was captured and transported to Egypt as a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gift for the emperor. The Egyptians fed the wild Centaur a traditional&#xD;&#xA;&gt; diet of raw meat, but it could not tolerate the change in altitude and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; perished. The Egyptians had the corpse embalmed and shipped to Rome,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; where the emperor Claudius exhibited the marvel in his palace. Pliny&#xD;&#xA;&gt; went with friends to see the spectacle: the Centaur was completely&#xD;&#xA;&gt; submerged in honey (a common preservative for transporting cadavers&#xD;&#xA;&gt; long distances)...&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Nearly a century later, through the reign of nine emperors after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Claudius, the embalmed Centaur of Saune could still be viewed, by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; special appointment, in the emperor Hadrian's imperial storehouse.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Phlegon... who served on Hadrian's staff (A.D. 117-138), examined the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; marvel himself. The Centaur was a bit smaller than what one might&#xD;&#xA;&gt; expect from classical Greek art, he observed, but it had a fierce face&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and hairy arms and fingers. The human rib cage merged naturally with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; equine body and limbs, and its hooves were quite firm.&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mayor herself is convinced that all these preserved remains were artistically contrived hoaxes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;SATYRS &amp; AIGIPANĒS&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Fauns are from Roman mythology. Since ancient times they have often been confused with Satyrs, who did *not* have goats' heads or legs, and were more humanoid (and barely had horns). The Roman fauns were more akin in appearance to the goat-headed, goat-legged gods Pan and Aigipan [Aegipan] (the latter of whom might merely be a form of the former) and the woodland sprites called Panēs [Pans], after the great Pan, and Aigipanēs [Aegipans], similarly after the great Aigipan. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Satyr Appliqué][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As in the preceding section, Mayor's book relates the issue quite well (pp. 236-237):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Pausanias remarked that a live wild Satyr from Libya was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; exhibited in Rome, and Plutarch described the capture of a Satyr in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; what is now Albania. In 83 B.C., the Roman commander Sulla was about&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to sail from Dyrrhacium to Italy when his soldiers surprised a Satyr&#xD;&#xA;&gt; asleep in a sacred meadow, a place where fire flowed from the ground.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The creature looked just like Satyrs in art and drama, and, when&#xD;&#xA;&gt; captured and presented to the Roman commander, he uttered a harsh&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whinnying bleat.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Satyr sightings lasted into the early Christian era. Saint&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jerome, a contemporary of Saint Augustine, stated that the emperor&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Constantine (d. A.D. 337) traveled to Antioch to view the remains of a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Satyr that had been preserved in salt.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the end of Endnote 8 to this chapter of the book (on p. 326), Mayor says that &quot;Saint Augustine thought he saw a Satyr, according to Cuvier. Rudwick 1997, 233.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meanwhile Pliny's [*Natural History*](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0137:book=5:chapter=1) has this to say about Mt Atlas in Morocco:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At night, they say, it gleams with fires innumerable&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lighted up; it is then the scene of the gambols of the Aegipans and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Satyr crew, while it re-echoes with the notes of the flute and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; pipe, and the clash of drums and cymbals. All this is what authors of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; high character have stated, in addition to the labours which Hercules&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Herakles] and Perseus there experienced. The space which intervenes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; before you arrive at this mountain is immense, and the country quite&#xD;&#xA;&gt; unknown.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is nonetheless an encounter with something which is described as *both* a Satyr and a *faun* by none other than Jerome, who says that the famous Egyptian hermit St Antony the Great was given roadside directions to an older monk named Paul of Thebes, first by a Centaur and then by a goatish humanoid. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second creature speaks to Antony and even acknowledges Christ as Lord, all while alluding to the Book of Psalms and the Epistle to the Romans! (*And* this goat-like beast-man can *fly?*) As it happens, Antony's response thereto provides what we could call a fourth explanation of the matter in question, or even a blend of all of the current 3.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Antony was amazed, and, thinking over what he had seen [the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Centaur], went on his way. Before long in a small rocky valley shut in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on all sides he saw a little man with a hooked snout, a horned&#xD;&#xA;&gt; forehead, and extremities like the feet of a goat. When he saw this,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Antony, like a good soldier, seized the shield of faith and the helmet&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of hope: the creature nonetheless began to offer to him the fruit of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the palm-trees to support him on his journey and, as it were, pledges of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; peace. Antony, perceiving this, stopped and asked who he was. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; answer he received from him was this:&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; &lt;sup&gt;I am a mortal being and one of those inhabitants of the desert&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; whom the Gentiles, deluded by various forms of error, worship under the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; names of Fauns, Satyrs, and Incubi. I am sent to represent my tribe.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; We ask you on our behalf to entreat the favour of your Lord and ours,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; who, we have learned, came once to save the world, and &quot;whose sound&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; has gone forth into all the earth.&quot;&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;As he uttered such words as these, the aged traveller's cheeks&#xD;&#xA;&gt; streamed with tears, the marks of his deep feeling, which he shed in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the fullness of his joy. He rejoiced over the Glory of Christ and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; destruction of Satan, and marvelling all the while that he could&#xD;&#xA;&gt; understand the Satyr's language, and striking the ground with his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; staff, he said:&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; &lt;sup&gt;Woe to you, Alexandria, who instead of God worships monsters!   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; Woe to you, harlot city, into which have flowed together the demons of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; the whole world!    &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; What will you say now? Beasts speak of Christ, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; you, instead of God, worship monsters!&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;He had not finished speaking when, as if on wings, the wild&#xD;&#xA;&gt; creature fled away. Let no one scruple to believe this incident; its&#xD;&#xA;&gt; truth is supported by what took place when Constantine was on the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; throne, a matter of which the whole world was witness.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; - [*The Life of Paul the Hermit* 8](http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3008.htm)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jerome goes on to describe the Satyr remains in Antioch, mentioned in the Mayor quote above, at the beginning of this section.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;OTHER CREATURES&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Encounters with mermen (who were called Tritons in Greek myth) and sea nymphs (typically Nereids, who were related to the Tritons via their common ancestor the sea-god Nereus) were as prevalent in Roman times as sightings of Centaurs and Satyrs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pliny says that a delegation from Olisipo (Lisbon) arrived in Rome to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; inform the emperor Tiberius that a Triton had been spotted in a cave&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by the sea. They also stated that a dying Nereid, covered with hair or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fine scales even on the parts that looked human, appeared on the same&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shore. The governor of Gaul reported to Emperor Augustus a mass&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stranding of Nereids on the Atlantic coast, and Pliny himself heard&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from reliable sources that a Triton was sinking ships at night in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gulf of Cadiz.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Triton remains were exhibited in Tanagra and Rome.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Mayor 2000: 231-232&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pliny says there was a breed of (really kool-sounding) horned, winged horses in Aethiopia which were called *Pegasi*. [Aaron Atsma](http://www.theoi.com/Thaumasios/PegasoiAithiopikoi.html) conjectures that these were descendants of Pegasus, the most famous winged horse of Greek myth, hence the name of the African variety of these animals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Horned Pegasus][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By the way, during Herodotus' time and long after, gods were still siring offspring upon mortal women. For much more on that, see my [MoreStories~inUniverse Answer](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/855/what-was-the-explanation-in-greek-mythology-for-the-absence-of-their-deities/3404#3404).     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notes&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Grant, R.M. 1952. *Miracle and Natural Law in Graeco-Roman and Early Christian Thought*. Wipf &amp; Stock, Eugene, OR.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. Mayor, A. 2000. *The First Fossil Hunters: Paleontology in Greek and Roman Times*. Princeton University Press, Princeton, NJ.&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/My81s.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/VcvsE.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/5e4zL.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/9OmkZ.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13595" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3406" RevisionGUID="02d12a9f-85f7-4700-9cf3-6d5a23b2c0b8" CreationDate="2018-02-26T09:59:21.627" UserId="4525" Text="Talking about Europe and cultures that influenced it...&#xA;Why and since when was the revival of the dead considered evil?&#xA;&#xA;In Greek mythology bringing back a loved one is hard or comes at a price, but it doesn't seem to be frowned upon.&#xA;&#xA;So the precedent must come from other mythology. But which one? In Christianity bringing the dead back is considered a miracle, so probably not here either. So where does the &quot;bringing people back is evil&quot; mind-set come from?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13596" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3406" RevisionGUID="02d12a9f-85f7-4700-9cf3-6d5a23b2c0b8" CreationDate="2018-02-26T09:59:21.627" UserId="4525" Text="When and why did necromancy became a bad thing?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13597" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3406" RevisionGUID="02d12a9f-85f7-4700-9cf3-6d5a23b2c0b8" CreationDate="2018-02-26T09:59:21.627" UserId="4525" Text="|myth-identification|origins|underworld|traditions|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13598" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3407" RevisionGUID="b2eecd83-8b0a-433d-a3d4-a3ca1054b8e6" CreationDate="2018-02-26T10:31:01.523" UserId="4525" Text="Is there a case in Japanese mythology of an Oni helping people or being in an army or just being a craftsman in some village? If not why can they not integrate? What forces them to live far from civilization?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13599" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3407" RevisionGUID="b2eecd83-8b0a-433d-a3d4-a3ca1054b8e6" CreationDate="2018-02-26T10:31:01.523" UserId="4525" Text="Could japanese Oni integrate into human civilization?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13600" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3407" RevisionGUID="b2eecd83-8b0a-433d-a3d4-a3ca1054b8e6" CreationDate="2018-02-26T10:31:01.523" UserId="4525" Text="|japanese|monsters|giants|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13602" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3408" RevisionGUID="4b9c1590-5a0b-4d96-b6c4-8568f94627d4" CreationDate="2018-02-26T17:57:37.173" UserId="1511" Text="I have heard that they are &quot;merrymaking and lovemaking&quot; the entire time. But if there is someone more familiar with the lives of fairies, I would love to learn about their culture...at least some sources about it. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13603" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3408" RevisionGUID="4b9c1590-5a0b-4d96-b6c4-8568f94627d4" CreationDate="2018-02-26T17:57:37.173" UserId="1511" Text="How Do The Fairies In Irish Mythology Spend Their Time" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13604" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3408" RevisionGUID="4b9c1590-5a0b-4d96-b6c4-8568f94627d4" CreationDate="2018-02-26T17:57:37.173" UserId="1511" Text="|irish|fairies|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13606" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1807" RevisionGUID="2df5486a-32e8-425a-a1a1-52efcaa0f485" CreationDate="2018-02-26T19:04:19.880" UserId="2682" Comment="improved formatting" Text="***Bile, Not Blood***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Technically it was not the Hydra's blood that was venomous at all. The confusion regarding this seems to arise from the fact that it was Hydra-venom *in combination with someone else's* blood that eventually brought an end to Herakles the Hydra-slayer himself. There does not seem to be any ancient reference to Herakles using the Hydra's blood itself as poison, rather it was the monster's gall or bile which was venomous, and this is what he dipped his arrows in, and is what sealed his arrows as fatality weapons. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only reference which comes close to implying that it was the dragon's blood rather than its bile is a cursory expression used in the Roman Seneca's play *Hercules Furens* (&quot;Hercules' Madness&quot;). In it, Hercules describes the arrows as dipped in *Lernæa nece*, which Frank Justus Miller translates as &quot;Hydra's gore&quot; but literally comes closer to &quot;Lernaea's violent murder/slaying&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles destroyed a good number of his enemies (and a few friends too) by the use of his poisoned arrows. One of the last of these enemies was the Centaur Nessos [Nessus], who tried to violate Herakles' bride Deianeira. As he was dying, Nessos thought quite fast about how he could be avenged on his slayer even after he himself was long gone. He convinced Deianeira that his own Centaur blood (in one version this is mixed together with another bodily fluid) was a *philtron* [love-potion] which might come in handy someday if Herakles ever became unfaithful to her, and Deianeira collected what she could of it as an insurance policy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;True to form, years later, according to Sophocles' *Trakhiniai*,  Herakles decided to pursue an old flame of his. Deianeira then took the garment which Herakles planned to wear to his new wedding and dipped it in her stash of Nessos' blood. Nessos seems to have understood full well that the Hydra-gall would remain in his blood permanently (whether the blood was actually a philtron at all, which I suppose we'll never know). So now, years after the Centaur's death, as soon as Herakles put on the garment, the dragon's gall in Nessos' blood burned him so badly that he couldn't bear to live anymore. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for Herakles' encounter with the many-headed serpent, Hyginus does indeed paint our hero into a difficult scenario. It must have taken quite a bit of heavily exerted breathing to repeatedly chop off several heads from a giant monster while also having to fend off a giant crab. If even the creature's own footprints were poisonous [whether the dragon was present or not], without some decent self-insulation, it really should be virtually impossible to survive an actual showdown with such a beast. There are two possibilities I can think of for how Herakles could have slain a massive killer snake in such a toxic environment, let alone survived said environment.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Lion's Pelt**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To Kill the Hydra was `Mission 2.0` on Herakles' eventual list of 12 Tasks that he had to complete as a slave of his kinsman King Eurystheus of Argolis. `Mission 1.0` had been To Kill the Lion of Nemea, which lion, according to Apollodorus, was a brother of the Hydra. At any rate Herakles did complete his first mission and from then on he wore the skin of the Nemean Lion as armour practically everywhere he went. The lion pelt was impenetrable and impervious, and in ancient artwork the hero is usually depicted wearing the skin while battling the Hydra. There is no explicit written reference to the idea that the skin might have shielded Herakles in any way against the dragon of Lerna but there are some clues in his later adventures as to how this might have been so.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`Mission 12.0`, the last of the Eurysthean slave tasks, was To Capture Kerberos [Cerberus], the monstrous watchdog of the Underworld (and yet another brother of the Hydra). According to Apollodorus' *Bibliotheka*, one of the reasons that Herakles survived this one is because he covered his own skin completely in the Nemean Lion's pelt, although we have neither more detail about this nor any artwork graphic enough to display for us precisely what this might have looked like. Apollodorus simply tells us that by doing this, Herakles was able to withstand the bites of Kerberos' tail, which was composed of tens of snake- or dragon-heads, in a structure which reminds of the Hydra.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It should be reasonable to assume that a many-headed giant snake would try to bite its attacker, so for sure Herakles' recently acquired armour would've come in handy for protection against wounding during his 2nd Task. However, from what we can see of both Ancient and Modern Greek depictions of him clad in the pelt, there is no obvious means by which his respiratory system was also protected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Herakles in Lionskin][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Herakles &amp; Iolaos vs Hydra][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *scholion* on Iliad 23.841 says that when Aias [Ajax], the son of Herakles' nephew Telamon, was a baby, Herakles wrapped him up in the skin of the Nemean Lion so that Aias became invulnerable like his cousin Akhilleus [Achilles]. The idea here seems to be that an infant's coming into contact with the lion-skin caused the infant to become impervious, as opposed to an adult upon whom such &quot;magic&quot; clearly did not work the same way, since Herakles himself, who wore the pelt all the time, did not grow impervious skin from such extended periods of interaction therewith. Perhaps, though, there was some minor, less permanent effect on an adult whose head was helmeted inside the head of the flayed lion, in that it created a pocket of cushioned air. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In case that is not especially convincing (and I don't think that it is) a final insight on it is that both Seneca (again in *Hercules Furens*) and Hyginus, as well as Aelian, say that the Nemean Lion was the son of the moon-goddess. According to Hyginus, the Moon even suckled the lion. (The lion and Herakles had this in common: having drunk the milk of goddesses, since Herakles, when he was a baby, was once suckled by Hera, at least according to Pausanias.) Such contact with the gods often leaves mortals with the scent of ambrosia upon them, and ambrosia has curative and preservative properties. Hence its use by Aphrodite to embalm the corpse of the Trojan prince Hektor [Hector] while Akhilleus was angrily dragging it behind his chariot after slaying the prince. And Dionysos' granddaughter Hypsipyle inherited the wine-god's purple robe which, after two generations, still smelled of the ambrosial perfume which had been placed thereon long before she was born. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In short, it may be that the scent of the Nemean Lion protected Herakles, or something he drank when he was a baby augmented his respiratory immunity. Even if this is acceptable, there is, however, the problem of the fact that Herakles' charioteer nephew Iolaos was present at the battle against the Hydra. Iolaos was not wearing any magical prophylactic that we know about, nor had he benefited from any divine breastfeeding, but he evidently survived the encounter with the Hydra just fine.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Protected by Pallas**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With that being the case, we are essentially left with artwork to rely on as the main explanation source for the dilemma. Hyginus, Valerius Flaccus, Pausanias and Hesiod make brief mention of the idea that Herakles' half-sister the goddess Athena masterminded the strategic aspects of Herakles' 1st Eurysthean task, and, according to Hyginus, it was this goddess who instructed the hero to gut the dragon's carcass in order to harvest her gall for arrow-poison.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ancient artists corroborate Athena's involvement here with their renditions of the story, in which it seems that Athena, the protector of heroes (especially if they're her own brothers like Perseus and Herakles), was standing behind Herakles throughout the Hydra battle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Herakles vs the Hydra][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;*She is the woman to the far left in the image above and in the one below.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Athena, Herakles, Karkinos, Hydra &amp; Iolaos][4]][4]    &#xD;&#xA;*Here she is even brandishing what looks like a spear with which she is either goading Herakles on or is ready to skewer the monster alive, before the hero even has a crack at it.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It may simply be that Pallas Athena, somehow, protected both Herakles and Iolaos from the Hydra's breath.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Euhemerisation Anecdote***  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;The generally accepted interpretation of the legend is that “the hydra&#xD;&#xA;&gt; denotes the damp, swampy ground of Lerna with its numerous springs&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (κεφαλαί, heads); its poison the miasmic vapours rising from the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stagnant water; its death at the hands of Heracles the introduction of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the culture and consequent purification of the soil” (Preller). A&#xD;&#xA;&gt; euhemeristic explanation is given by Palaephatus (39). An ancient king&#xD;&#xA;&gt; named Lernus occupied a small citadel named Hydra, which was defended&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by 50 bowmen. Heracles besieged the citadel and hurled firebrands at&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the garrison. As often as one of the defenders fell, two others at&#xD;&#xA;&gt; once stepped into his place. The citadel was finally taken with the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; assistance of the army of Iolaus and the garrison slain.&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;`HYDRA` *in Vol. 14 of The Encyclopaedia Britannica: A Dictionary of Arts, Sciences, Literature and General Information (11th Edition, 1910-1911)*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/hSXGF.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/rqK9N.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/nueIX.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/SL8Vc.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13607" PostHistoryTypeId="8" PostId="1471" RevisionGUID="58c4f71c-6147-4cf7-a03c-d8a7199087fe" CreationDate="2018-02-26T19:07:17.220" UserId="2682" Comment="Rollback to [98dee1fa-da22-4bf0-a4e0-af131d9e479b]" Text="In most all references to the Lernaean Hydra, it says that the hydra has venomous *breath* and blood.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Pseudo-Hyginus, Fabulae 30 :&#xD;&#xA;&quot;He [Herakles] killed at the spring of Lerna the nine headed Lernaean Hydra, offspring of Typhon. This monster was so poisonous that she killed men with her breath, and if anyone passed by when she was sleeping, he breathed her tracks and died in greatest torment. Under Minerva’s [Athene’s] instructions he killed her, disembowelled her, and dipped his arrows in her gall; and so whatever later he hit with his arrows did not escape death, and later he himself perished in Phrygia from the same cause.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; **How does Hercules avoided breathing in the poisonous fumes?** We know that the poison was potent enough to kill him, as that is how he eventually dies. Is there some information in the story that tell us how he deals with this? Or is it just not included in the myths?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13608" PostHistoryTypeId="7" PostId="1471" RevisionGUID="58c4f71c-6147-4cf7-a03c-d8a7199087fe" CreationDate="2018-02-26T19:07:17.220" UserId="2682" Comment="Rollback to [98dee1fa-da22-4bf0-a4e0-af131d9e479b]" Text="How does Hercules avoided the Hydra's venomous breath?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13609" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1471" RevisionGUID="8a90495f-d15c-49a7-a7cf-2a3e4006c811" CreationDate="2018-02-26T19:09:30.350" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar to revert to original proper grammar of the Question" Text="In most all references to the Lernaean Hydra, it says that the hydra has venomous *breath* and blood.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Pseudo-Hyginus, Fabulae 30 :&#xD;&#xA;&quot;He [Herakles] killed at the spring of Lerna the nine headed Lernaean Hydra, offspring of Typhon. This monster was so poisonous that she killed men with her breath, and if anyone passed by when she was sleeping, he breathed her tracks and died in greatest torment. Under Minerva’s [Athene’s] instructions he killed her, disembowelled her, and dipped his arrows in her gall; and so whatever later he hit with his arrows did not escape death, and later he himself perished in Phrygia from the same cause.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; **Do we know how Hercules avoided breathing in the poisonous fumes?** We know that the poison was potent enough to kill him, as that is how he eventually dies. Is there some information in the story that tell us how he deals with this? Or is it just not included in the myths?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13610" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1471" RevisionGUID="8a90495f-d15c-49a7-a7cf-2a3e4006c811" CreationDate="2018-02-26T19:09:30.350" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar to revert to original proper grammar of the Question" Text="Do we know how Hercules avoided the Hydra's venomous breath?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13612" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3346" RevisionGUID="40b7c9df-ba11-4be4-8c35-b8d1368e3e26" CreationDate="2018-02-26T20:12:51.343" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; improved formatting" Text="There is no especially close correspondence between Homer's Proteus, as a *Halios Geron*, &quot;Old Man of the Sea,&quot; and any deity in the Ancient Egyptian pantheons. Two Egyptian water deities could be noted as somewhat, very vaguely approximate: Wadj-wer and Nu[n], who are themselves at rather opposite ends of the spectrum in their own world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Wadj-wer**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Wadj Wer was a fertility god who's name means &quot;Great Green&quot;. His&#xD;&#xA;&gt; origins were probably either off Egypt's Mediterranean coast or along&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the major lagoons of the Nile Delta such as at Lakes Mariut, Idku,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Burullus and Mazala. As early as the Old Kingdom this deity is shown&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in a relief from the pyramid site of Abusir. He proceeds among the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fecundity figures, carrying an offering loaf on a mat and with symbols&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of life (the &quot;ankh&quot; sign) suspended from his arm. Under his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; androgynous form with an emphasized breast and a belly indicative of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; pregnancy, Wadj Wer is clearly associated with procreation and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; prosperity. Water signs are carved across his body suggesting the rich&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fishing in the Delta lakes.&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*TourEgypt.net's article **&quot;Wadj Wer: The Pregnant God&quot;***&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [*Cow of Gold: An Encyclopedia of Egyptian Mythology*](https://cowofgold.wikispaces.com/Wadj-Wer), Wadj-wer was &quot;A Hapi-like fecundity figure&quot; who &quot;was long believed to be the personification of the Mediterranean Sea, but is now thought to have actually represented the large lakes and lagoons of the north Delta region.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Cow of Gold's Wadj-wer][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Wadj-Wer was shown as a man with long hair, a large belly, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; heavy breasts, symbolizing the rich yield of the area he represents.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He was often depicted as carrying the ankh, a palm branch, or trays of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; food. His body was always covered in symbolic waves.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps Wadj-wer's modern identification with the Mediterranean has to do with associating the meaning of his name with the term by which many ancient inhabitants of the Ancient Near East referred to the Mediterranean: the &quot;Great Sea.&quot; If Wadj-wer really was a personification of this body of water then he would indeed come quite close to being a counterpart to Proteus, as well as several other major Greek sea-gods who were to some extents themselves personifications of this sea. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, even if this identification of Wadj-wer were accurate, there is the fact of his androgyny. The reason that the Cow of Gold refers to him as &quot;Hapi-like&quot; is that he bears a striking resemblance to the much less obscure Nile deity Ḥāpi, with whom he shares the attributes of being depicted as a *man* with overt female attributes, such as being pregnant and apparently lactating. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although Greek water deities (both of salt-water and fresh) were typically also conceived of as fertility deities, they are invariably represented as unambiguously male, even in their common animal form as bulls. (There are female Greek water deities too, and these, correspondingly, are unambiguously feminine.) The Greek gods of *rivers* in particular often appeared as bulls. Neilos, the personification and god of the Nile River in Greek myths, arguably does not have much, if anything, to do with the main Egyptian Nile personification Ḥāpi. In the same vein, Wadj-wer is quite unlike Proteus or any of the other Greek marine geriatrics (or any other Hellenic sea-god).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Nu[n]**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Egyptian cosmogony, especially at Heliopolis and Hermopolis, the universe is supposed to have begun as an inert mass of water containing all the matter which later separated to form the different elements and compounds that make up recognisable objects and distinct lifeforms, including the gods. This water-mass was itself a god, named Nu, or Nun, whose properties strikingly parallel the watery abyss in Hebrew and Mesopotamian cosmogonies. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In all these cosmologies the entire universe seems to exist as a bubble inside the endless expanse of primordial fluid. The counterpart to this in Greek myth, rather than Proteus or any other mainstream marine divinity, is found in the somewhat unorthodox cult of the Orphics, who say that one of the first entities to exist was the god Hydros, literally &quot;Water.&quot; Together with some other primaeval beings, Hydros would go on to engender the rest of the universe. There is correlation here with the Titan Okeanos [Oceanus], whose cosmic body formed a stream which encircled the entire earth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the mainstream version of the Greek cosmogony, Khaos [Chaos], &quot;Gap,&quot; represents virtually all the same things that Nu does, except that Khaos is more of an admixture of all the elements in such a way that he (or she, maybe) is described as more of a vast emptiness (hence the name &quot;Gap&quot;) rather than a solid or liquid bulk. In this version Khaos is the origin of the material that everything else in existence derived itself from. Okeanos is a generation or two younger than the first beings to emerge from Khaos, and one of his numerous daughters would become the mother-in-law of Proteus.&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; Neither Khaos nor Hydros nor Okeanos is a *Halios Geron*, however (although two of Okeanos' half-brothers are&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;), even if we could more plausibly connect them to Nu.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The English word &quot;ocean&quot; comes from Okeanos' name. At least [one British Egyptologist](https://archive.org/stream/godsofegyptianso00budg#page/284/mode/2up)&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; has this to say regarding Nu: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It must also be noted that the ocean and also the Nile were identified&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with  Nu, whose characteristics changed during the latter part of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dynastic period. The name of this god has been compared with the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Coptic word [![Coptic noun][2]][2] &quot;abyss,&quot; &quot;deep,&quot; and the like, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; it is possible that it may have some connection with it...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps by &quot;ocean&quot; here this writer could also intend &quot;sea,&quot; and so perchance a loose connection could be made therefrom to a Greek sea deity, although that, I think, would be tenuous.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The King and His Origins**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Having disclaimed all of that, there is in Greek mythology a rather different version of Proteus, who was a mortal *king* of Egypt. Like two of his predecessors on the throne,&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; he was a son of Poseidon. Through this king's father, the King of the Sea, then, we still have the connection, in the Greek myths, between Egypt, together with Proteus, and the sea. King Proteus, like the sea-god Proteus, is also connected to the Trojan War saga, even more intimately. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most popular version of his involvement therein is that while on the way to Troy from Lakedaimon, Paris and Helen passed through his domain. Proteus substituted Helen for a phantom version of herself, which he sent Paris off to Troy with. For nine years thereafter, then, the Greeks fought the Trojans essentially for nothing, for an illusion. Menelaus later had to come to Egypt to retrieve the real Helen from thence. Also Proteus' sons Polygonos and Telegonos challenged Herakles to a wrestling-match and both paid for the effort with their lives.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ancient writers after Homer, just as well as modern ones, have made attempts to expound upon King Proteus and his connection to Egypt and even to the divine marine version of the same character, either via the etymology of his name or by equating him with a particular &quot;historical&quot; Pharaoh. According to Diodorus Siculus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;After the death of this king [“*Mendes, whom some call Marros*”]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; there were no rulers for five generations, and then a man of obscure&#xD;&#xA;&gt; origin was chosen king, whom the Egyptians call Ketes [Cetes], but who among&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Greeks is thought to be that Proteus  who lived at the time of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; war about Ilion.&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Some tradition records that this Proteus was experienced in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; knowledge of the winds and that he would change his body, sometimes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; into the form of different animals, sometimes into a tree or fire or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; something else, and it so happens that the account which the priests&#xD;&#xA;&gt; give of Ketes is in agreement with that tradition.&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;For, according to the priests, from the close association which&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the king constantly maintained with the astrologers, he had gained&#xD;&#xA;&gt; experience in such matters, and from a custom which has been passed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; down among the kings of Egypt has arisen the myths current among the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greeks about the way Proteus changed his shape.&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;For it was a practice among the rulers of Egypt to wear upon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their heads the forepart of a lion, or bull, or snake as symbols of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their rule; at times also trees or fire, and in some cases they even&#xD;&#xA;&gt; carried on their heads large bunches of fragrant herbs for incense,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; these last serving to enhance their comeliness and at the same time to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fill all other men with fear and religious awe.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anne Burton has written [a commentary on this passage of Diodorus](https://books.google.com/books?id=sXiMtMnPHikC&amp;pg=PA182#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false),&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; saying that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;The identity of the Egyptian king called by the Greeks Proteus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; remains uncertain. Diodorus is the first to attribute to him the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Egyptian name Cetes, a form which appears to bear no relation to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; known name of any Egyptian king. It is, however, very likely that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cetes is the Greek form of the Egyptian *ḥȝty-Ꜥ* “chieftain”, or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “local prince”✭, particularly as Diodorus specifically says that this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; king was of obscure origin, i.e. he was not a member of the ruling&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dynasty.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;In Homer Proteus appears as an old man of the sea, but even here&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he is called Αίγύπτιος, and is said to live on the island of Pharos.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Herodotus, II, 112, he appears for the first time as a king, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; therefore mortal, and here he is said to live in Memphis.  In&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Euripides, *Helen*, Proteus appears as king, not δαίμων, of Pharos;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; while Vergil and Ovid both associate Proteus with Carpathus, an island&#xD;&#xA;&gt; between Crete and Rhodes, probably used to indicate roughly the same&#xD;&#xA;&gt; area of the Mediterranean as Homer. Elsewhere, Proteus appears to have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; been associated with Thrace, and legends portray him as coming from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thrace to Egypt. Spiegelberg, “Der ägypter König Proteus”, *BIFAO*,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; XXX, 1930, 103-106, suggests that the confusion between the Greek and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Egyptian Proteus arose when the Greeks saw statues of kings with the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; attributes of the Nile-god, and related them to their own Proteus. But&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this is not entirely convincing, as Proteus appears never to have been&#xD;&#xA;&gt; seen as a fruitful river god. Wiedemann, *Herodots zweites Buch*, p.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 432, suggests that the Proteus of Herodotus’ account was not the Greek&#xD;&#xA;&gt; figure, but an unidentified Egyptian who was compared with him. This&#xD;&#xA;&gt; explanation is made the more plausible by the similarity between the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greek name Proteus, and the Egyptian title *pȝ-rwty*.✭✭&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A couple of Burton's footnotes being equally informative, I have embedded them into my own, below, *q.v.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Burton references a Herodotus commentary by Walter Wybergh How &amp; Joseph Wells,&lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt; which says the following under the heading [&quot;Homer and Egyptian history&quot;](https://archive.org/stream/acommentaryonher24146gut/24146-pdf#page/n243/mode/2up), on *Historiai* 2.112.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The words, &quot;a man of Memphis,&quot; imply that Proteus was of a different&#xD;&#xA;&gt; family from the previous kings. Homer (*Od.* iv 126) makes Polybus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; king in Egyptian Thebes at the time of the Trojan War, and Manetho&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (*FHG* ii. 581) identifies him with the last ruler of the nineteenth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dynasty, whom he calls Θούωρις. Diodorus (i. 62) follows H. Perhaps H.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; has confused an Egyptian title, Proutî, with the familiar “Proteus.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is suggested that, as Proteus is a sea-god in Homer (*Od.* iv.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 385), H. may have identified him with the fish-god (Dagon) of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Τυρίων στρατόπεδον (112. 2). At any rate, H. does not commit the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; absurdity of Diodorus (ut sup.), who explains the famous&#xD;&#xA;&gt; transformations of Proteus as a myth due to the Egyptian custom of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; king wearing lion skins and other articles on his head, to inspire&#xD;&#xA;&gt; terror and reverence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Notes**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. The Oceanid Doris, whose daughter, the Nereid Psamathe, married Proteus.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. The sea-gods Nereus (husband of Doris and father of Psamathe [*see prev. note*]) and Phorkys [Phorcys], sons of Pontos and Gaia.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. Budge, E.A.W. 1904. *The Gods of the Egyptians, or Studies in Egyptian Mythology*. Methuen &amp; Co., London, p. 284.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;4. Belos [Belus], son of Poseidon by Epaphos' daughter Libya; and Bousiris [Busiris], son of Poseidon by Epaphos' daughter Lysianassa.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;5. Burton, A. 1972. *Diodorus Siculus, Book 1: A Commentary*. E.J. Brill. Leiden, pp. 182-183.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;✭ The main argument against this theory is that the Egyptian *ḥ* usually disappears in the Greek (cf. *Ḥwt-Ḥr*—Ἄϑυρ), though it is retained in Coptic as **ϧ** (*Wb.*, III, 25f.). There is no instance of *ḥ* becoming κ, which one might expect rather to come from Egyptian *ḳ*, *ẖ* or perhaps *ḫ*. But there is e.g. the anomalous instance of Greek χάμψα from Egyptian *msḥ*, Coptic [![MSAH][3]][3] [*N. 1 on p. 182 in original.*]&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;✭✭ The title *pȝ-rwty*, “high doors” (of temple or palace), is mentioned by Mallet, *Les premiers éstablissments grecs en Égypte*, p. 401, n. 3, as “un des nombreux titres donnés aux souverains égyptiens.” … Lauth, *Ägyptische Chronologie*, p. 181f. was the first to identify this title with the name Proteus. [*N. 1 on p. 183 in original.*]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;6. How, W.W., &amp; Wells, J., 1928. *A Commentary on Herodotus*. Oxford University Press, Great Britain.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/7wPtT.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/HZrx5.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/XAK2a.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13613" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3410" RevisionGUID="7dcaa4d3-899c-4649-b9e9-16f0e687a914" CreationDate="2018-02-26T21:09:11.817" UserId="4808" Text="I read philosophy, and so often is Homer referenced as giving extraordinary accounts of Greek Mythology, and it seems that he might as well be the standard for the gospel. Do his books delve deep into the lore of the gods? If one were to learn about Greek Mythology, would reading Homer alone be sufficient?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I must admit that I read his Odyssey as a teenager, but remember almost nothing of it except the central plot. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13614" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3410" RevisionGUID="7dcaa4d3-899c-4649-b9e9-16f0e687a914" CreationDate="2018-02-26T21:09:11.817" UserId="4808" Text="Is Homer a good overview, or an encompassing view, of Greek Mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13615" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3410" RevisionGUID="7dcaa4d3-899c-4649-b9e9-16f0e687a914" CreationDate="2018-02-26T21:09:11.817" UserId="4808" Text="|greek|homer|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13616" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3411" RevisionGUID="7cb637fe-00ab-46ad-89fc-1bee4397a756" CreationDate="2018-02-26T21:39:57.123" UserId="4809" Text="The argument about the Number of tails doesn't matter. Huli Jing and Kitsune for all intensive purposes are the same. In Japan, foxes start with a tail and gain more with age and wisdom. This required them to first obtain enough power to become more than a fox. In China, Huli jing was called demon fox and believed to gather power from nature until they became sentient with only one tail. After such an event they would gain tails up to nine with power, I think, I am uncertain about whether it was power or wisdom and age. In addition, the story of Deji said she was possessed by a Huli Jing but they source quoted the possession as the &quot;Thousand Years Vixen&quot;. In all honesty just seems like a translation thing. They are in essence the same thing with incredibly similar actions and tendencies. It would be best to see it as just two ways of saying one thing." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13617" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3412" RevisionGUID="462dd2f7-fcd6-4add-8950-0f4d6d836751" CreationDate="2018-02-26T22:45:06.220" UserId="2707" Text="We've all at one point or another heard something about the moon being made of cheese- does anyone know where this myth got started?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13618" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3412" RevisionGUID="462dd2f7-fcd6-4add-8950-0f4d6d836751" CreationDate="2018-02-26T22:45:06.220" UserId="2707" Text="Where did the notion the moon was made of cheese originate?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13619" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3412" RevisionGUID="462dd2f7-fcd6-4add-8950-0f4d6d836751" CreationDate="2018-02-26T22:45:06.220" UserId="2707" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13620" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3413" RevisionGUID="495f7279-ab21-4f17-bd40-6a54e64ac00b" CreationDate="2018-02-26T23:36:57.190" UserId="4525" Text="Well this is not a full list and some things might be from modern fiction, but...&#xA;&#xA;Healing. Curing diseases and sealing deadly wounds. Not sure if Excaliburs' sheath was made from it?...&#xA;&#xA;Apothecaries often used things they called unicorn horns. If they truly were using narwal teeth (no medicinal effect) or just some other considerably cheaper placebo is beyond this topic.&#xA;&#xA;Purification. Universal antidote and anti evil device.&#xA;&#xA;Unicorn is often a symbol of natures' purity. Grazes only in moonlight and stuff. So a simple touch can neutralize poisons and removes evil influence.&#xA;&#xA;Purge. As it clears corruption and evil it can also work as a weapon against the corrupted.&#xA;&#xA;May also be used for making magical tools and instruments, chatting up fairies, impaling wyverns and Fomorians, upsetting a druid or a forest guardian, as a really expensive vaulting pole." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13621" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3414" RevisionGUID="b0124ca5-f922-4196-bc4b-5445eda61a81" CreationDate="2018-02-27T01:47:01.763" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="Clairvoyance is the sensing of an event, thought or fact by other means than the five physical senses; telepathy is the deliberate sending of a thought, feeling, knowledge or information using such means. What is the first known time that either is known to have appeared in mythology or folklore?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13622" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3414" RevisionGUID="b0124ca5-f922-4196-bc4b-5445eda61a81" CreationDate="2018-02-27T01:47:01.763" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="What is the oldest known appearance of clairvoyance or telepathy in myth or folklore?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13623" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3414" RevisionGUID="b0124ca5-f922-4196-bc4b-5445eda61a81" CreationDate="2018-02-27T01:47:01.763" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13624" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3415" RevisionGUID="2c5efa3e-862b-4d84-9877-d02933c3d1e9" CreationDate="2018-02-27T02:03:56.683" UserId="4804" Text="All I know is reality, not mythology. And I had never heard that Scota had a twin sister or brother, I wonder if that is part of her legend or made up.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Scáthach was commonly known as Scota, progenitor of the Scots and probably a good bit of the Irish. She was born Ankhesenamun Tasherit, hereditary princess of Egypt. Her successful escape from the clutches of the Egyptian priesthood, and her success at evading the assassins sent to kill her, is the source of legends. She did not have a sister but rather a famous cousin Meritaten Tasherit, also hereditary princess, which was a royal title meaning matrilineally descended from the primordial queen of Egypt. Meritaten also escaped the Priesthood to become Miriam, the founding matron of the Jews. Her ‘brother’ was Thutmosis V aka Moses. So the sister and brother really meant cousins." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13625" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3401" RevisionGUID="34f43ab5-7314-4151-ae48-735e91083c33" CreationDate="2018-02-27T03:34:11.280" UserId="4565" Comment="added 2131 characters in body" Text="The earliest is likely Gilgamesh and Enkidu as told in the Sumerian standalone poem [Gilgamesh, Enkidu, and the Nether World](http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr1814.htm):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Warrior Gilgamec, son of Ninsumun, directed his steps on his own to E-kur, the temple of Enlil. He cried before Enlil: &quot;Father Enlil, my ellag fell down into the nether world, my ekidma fell down into Ganzer. Enkidu went down to retrieve them but the nether world has seized him. Namtar did not seize him, the Asag did not seize him; but the nether world has seized him. The udug demon of Nergal, who spares nobody, did not seize him, but the nether world has seized him. He did not fall in battle on the field of manhood, but the nether world has seized him.&quot; Father Enlil did not stand by him in the matter, so he went to Eridug.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [230-237] In Eridug he directed his steps on his own to the temple of Enki. He cried before Enki: &quot;Father Enki, my ellag fell down into the nether world, my ekidma fell down into Ganzer. Enkidu went down to retrieve them but the nether world has seized him. Namtar did not seize him, the Asag did not seize him; but the nether world has seized him. The udug demon of Nergal, who spares nobody, did not seize him, but the nether world has seized him. He did not fall in battle on the field of manhood, but the nether world has seized him.&quot; Father Enki stood by him in this matter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [238-242] He said to the young warrior Utu, the son born by Ningal: &quot;Open a hole in the nether world immediately, and then bring up his servant from the nether world!&quot; He opened a hole in the nether world and brought up his servant with his breeze (?) from the nether world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [243-253] They hugged and kissed. They wearied each other with questions: &quot;Did you see the order of the nether world? -- If only you would tell me, my friend, if only you would tell me!&quot; &quot;If I tell you the order of the nether world, sit down and weep! I shall sit down and weep! ......, which your heart rejoiced to touch, is ......, worms infest it like an old garment (?); like ...... of (?) a crevice, it is full of dust.&quot; &quot;Alas!&quot; he said and sat down in the dust..&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This likely dates to the Ur III period (ca. 2100-2000 BCE), and is the earliest I can think of.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Two others are fairly early, all things considered. The first is from the Bible. In [II Sam. 28](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Samuel+28&amp;version=CEV), Saul, the king of the Israelites, talks to Samuel's ghost:  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Saul told his officers, “Find me a woman who can talk to the spirits of the dead. I’ll go to her and find out what’s going to happen.”  &#xD;&#xA;His servants told him, “There’s a woman at Endor who can talk to spirits of the dead.”  &#xD;&#xA;8 That night, Saul put on different clothing so nobody would recognize him. Then he and two of his men went to the woman, and asked, “Will you bring up the ghost of someone for us?”  &#xD;&#xA;9 The woman said, “Why are you trying to trick me and get me killed? You know King Saul has gotten rid of everyone who talks to the spirits of the dead!”  &#xD;&#xA;10 Saul replied, “I swear by the living Lord that nothing will happen to you because of this.”  &#xD;&#xA;11 “Who do you want me to bring up?” she asked.  &#xD;&#xA;“Bring up the ghost of Samuel,” he answered.  &#xD;&#xA;12 When the woman saw Samuel, she screamed. Then she turned to Saul and said, “You’ve tricked me! You’re the king!”  &#xD;&#xA;13 “Don’t be afraid,” Saul replied. “Just tell me what you see.”  &#xD;&#xA;She answered, “I see a spirit rising up out of the ground.”  &#xD;&#xA;14 “What does it look like?”  &#xD;&#xA;“It looks like an old man wearing a robe.”  &#xD;&#xA;Saul knew it was Samuel, so he bowed down low.  &#xD;&#xA;15 “Why are you bothering me by bringing me up like this?” Samuel asked.  &#xD;&#xA;“I’m terribly worried,” Saul answered. “The Philistines are about to attack me. God has turned his back on me and won’t answer any more by prophets or by dreams. What should I do?”  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Samuel is usually dated between 600 and 550.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another early example of this is in Aeschylus' *Persae*. There, Darius is raised from the dead by Atossa, his wife, because his son, Xerxes, is failing miserably at conquering the Greeks:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lord of Persia's lord, appear:  &#xD;&#xA;Thus involved with thrilling cries   &#xD;&#xA;Come, our tale of sorrow hear!   &#xD;&#xA;War her Stygian pennons spreads,  &#xD;&#xA;Brooding darkness o'er our heads;  &#xD;&#xA;For stretch'd along the dreary shore  &#xD;&#xA;The flow'r of Asia lies distain'd with gore.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Rise, Darius, awful power;  &#xD;&#xA;Long for thee our tears shall flow.  &#xD;&#xA;Why thy ruin'd empire o'er  &#xD;&#xA;Swells this double flood of wo?  &#xD;&#xA;Sweeping o'er the azure tide  &#xD;&#xA;Rode thy navy's gallant pride:  &#xD;&#xA;Navy now no more, for all  &#xD;&#xA;Beneath the whelming wave- &#xD;&#xA;While the CHORUS Sings, ATOSSA performs her ritual by the tomb. As the song  concludes the GHOST OF DARIUS appears from the tomb.&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; GHOST OF DARIUS  &#xD;&#xA;Ye faithful Persians, honour'd now in age,  &#xD;&#xA;Once the companions of my youth, what ills  &#xD;&#xA;Afflict the state? The firm earth groans, it opes,  &#xD;&#xA;Disclosing its vast deeps; and near my tomb  &#xD;&#xA;I see my wife: this shakes my troubled soul  &#xD;&#xA;With fearful apprehensions; yet her off'rings  &#xD;&#xA;Pleased I receive. And you around my tomb  &#xD;&#xA;Chanting the lofty strain, whose solemn air  &#xD;&#xA;Draws forth the dead, with grief-attemper'd notes  &#xD;&#xA;Mournfully call me: not with ease the way  &#xD;&#xA;Leads to this upper air; and the stern gods,  &#xD;&#xA;Prompt to admit, yield not a passage back  &#xD;&#xA;But with reluctance: much with them my power  &#xD;&#xA;Availing, with no tardy step I come.  &#xD;&#xA;Say then, with what new ill doth Persia groan?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Persae* premiered in 472 BCE, so not that long after Samuel." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13626" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3416" RevisionGUID="3206455f-a2a4-40cd-8a44-73eae758e9d3" CreationDate="2018-02-27T15:05:59.537" UserId="4271" Text="I was looking up the Babylonian creation myth(didn't find it) and clicked on one of their gods, [Ereshkigal, Queen of the underworld, or Kur][1]. The page says she is from Mesopotamian Mythology and the underworld is of Sumerian Mythology. The picture to the side is of a table which is captioned of being from Babylonian Mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the difference? Did these three cultures combine their Mythologies? Why do I get all three when only looking up one?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ereshkigal" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13627" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3416" RevisionGUID="3206455f-a2a4-40cd-8a44-73eae758e9d3" CreationDate="2018-02-27T15:05:59.537" UserId="4271" Text="Babylonian, Sumerian or Mesopotamian" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13628" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3416" RevisionGUID="3206455f-a2a4-40cd-8a44-73eae758e9d3" CreationDate="2018-02-27T15:05:59.537" UserId="4271" Text="|comparative|sumerian|mesopotamia|babylonian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13632" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3354" RevisionGUID="ed6fc883-e312-4098-9f38-f38f2f199205" CreationDate="2018-02-28T18:41:16.960" UserId="2892" Comment="added 85 characters in body" Text="It's interesting that the most common epithet of Zeus in Greek literature is not the form of the name beginning in &quot;z&quot;, but the form equivalent to [*Dios*](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D*dio%2Fs2).  (This is the same word root for god in the Romance languages of Europe.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You see the word as an adjective often in phrases like  καὶ δῖος Ἀχιλλεύς (*kai dios Achilleus*) &quot;godlike Achilles&quot;, and even other deities might be described as divine (lowercase d), but only Zeus himself is referred to as Δῖος (&quot;God&quot; with the capital D).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some have linked the &quot;seus&quot; part of Jesus' name to Zeus, arguing that his original name was Joshua (ישוע [*Yeshua*][1]).  All are &quot;King of Heaven&quot; for their respective heavens, whether Olympus, Asgard or the Christian heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Joseph Campbell might refer to Odin, Zeus and the Lord of Hosts as &quot;sky fathers&quot;, and the depictions of all deities in art have certain characteristics such as the beard. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is no accident as Italian Renaissance art in particular was heavily influenced by Classical mythology at the peak of the power of the Catholic Church.  You can even find a direct merging of the two cosmologies in [Dante][2]'s Inferno, which influences the Christian conception of the universe second only to the bible itself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; It is also worth noting that a well known epithet of Odin is the &quot;Allfather&quot; ([Alfaðir][3]), and that Zeus is called &quot;[Father of the Gods and Men][4]&quot;.  In Christian sects that uphold the doctrine of the [trinity][5], the creator is knows as &quot;[God the Father][6]&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The main distinction I see is that the polytheistic versions of these kings of heaven were only [nigh][7]-omniscient and/or nigh-omnipotent.  Specifically, they were the kings of their respective hills, but inferior to the singular or infinite nature of the [Lord of Hosts][8].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: Unlike Zeus, who is undying and eternal, though not omniscient nor omnipotent, Odin is mortal in the sense he dies at Ragnarök, swallowed whole by the wolf [Fenrir][9].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.vision.org/visionmedia/religion-and-spirituality-dante-alighieri/64177.aspx&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/the-aesir-gods-and-goddesses/odin/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D531&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Prayer&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/nigh&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenrir" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13633" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3418" RevisionGUID="a0b1e59a-cd1f-45c1-92c6-4ef7650abaf3" CreationDate="2018-02-28T19:20:04.543" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13634" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3418" RevisionGUID="a0b1e59a-cd1f-45c1-92c6-4ef7650abaf3" CreationDate="2018-02-28T19:20:04.543" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13635" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3419" RevisionGUID="88ff2d77-da85-4549-a858-9fc76ddf7613" CreationDate="2018-02-28T19:20:04.543" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13636" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3419" RevisionGUID="88ff2d77-da85-4549-a858-9fc76ddf7613" CreationDate="2018-02-28T19:20:04.543" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13637" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3419" RevisionGUID="dd308f8a-d496-4dd4-bbb3-5b9fcfd580b5" CreationDate="2018-02-28T20:06:16.400" UserId="4271" Comment="added 69 characters in body" Text="Questions pertaining to Japanese polytheism(belief in multiple gods)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13638" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3419" RevisionGUID="dd308f8a-d496-4dd4-bbb3-5b9fcfd580b5" CreationDate="2018-02-28T20:06:16.400" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by -1 edit id of 540" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13639" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3419" RevisionGUID="da12f6b8-8c5e-4425-ae94-f8f887fdfd62" CreationDate="2018-02-28T20:06:16.400" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 13 characters in body; added 17 characters in body; added 7 characters in body" Text="Questions pertaining to the traditional Japanese polytheistic religion Shinto 神道" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13640" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3418" RevisionGUID="45e90bc1-f6ff-4159-9bce-568846489837" CreationDate="2018-02-28T20:08:53.660" UserId="2892" Comment="added 115 characters in body" Text="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinto&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kami&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13641" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3420" RevisionGUID="56a3f090-ffac-495a-8395-f10b829bb053" CreationDate="2018-02-28T20:12:15.747" UserId="2892" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13642" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3420" RevisionGUID="56a3f090-ffac-495a-8395-f10b829bb053" CreationDate="2018-02-28T20:12:15.747" UserId="2892" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13643" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3421" RevisionGUID="b5efd961-011e-46e7-ac02-6e6ea2eade56" CreationDate="2018-02-28T20:12:15.747" UserId="2892" Text="For questions relating to animals in mythology and folklore, symbolism and iconography." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13644" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3421" RevisionGUID="b5efd961-011e-46e7-ac02-6e6ea2eade56" CreationDate="2018-02-28T20:12:15.747" UserId="2892" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13645" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3420" RevisionGUID="6673cfe4-c3da-409d-8017-735315ae32a0" CreationDate="2018-02-28T20:30:40.153" UserId="2892" Comment="added 1010 characters in body" Text="Cryptids may also on topic, although the site is currently restricted to those deriving from traditional folklore.  *(i.e. [Wendigo][1] is on-topic, but [Chupacabra][2] won't be for a couple generations.)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further Reading:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesop&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_spirit&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_of_Heaven][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Symbolism:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Phoenix (Ancient Greek)][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Phoenix (Chinese)][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Red_Riding_Hood&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Lamb][6] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Iconography:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_Gate&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishtar_Gate&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animals_in_Christian_art&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendigo&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chupacabra#History&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gugalanna&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenghuang&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43670/the-lamb-56d222765a3e1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13646" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3421" RevisionGUID="6cbaa31a-035f-4809-ba09-53ff44fafefd" CreationDate="2018-02-28T20:30:40.153" UserId="2892" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="For questions relating to animals in mythology and folklore, symbolism and iconography. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13648" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3420" RevisionGUID="62292c91-9a6b-4706-989e-08a3d1539719" CreationDate="2018-02-28T21:32:58.297" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 61 characters in body" Text="Cryptids are also on topic, from the ancient Sphinx to the contemporary chupacabra. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mythology &amp; Folklore:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesop&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_spirit&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_of_Heaven][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Symbolism:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Phoenix (Ancient Greek)][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Phoenix (Chinese)][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Red_Riding_Hood&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpents_in_the_Bible&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Lamb][6] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Iconography:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_Gate&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishtar_Gate&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animals_in_Christian_art&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendigo&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chupacabra#History&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gugalanna&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenghuang&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43670/the-lamb-56d222765a3e1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13649" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3422" RevisionGUID="5cd9cea4-d156-4c62-8885-80bf0f57ac47" CreationDate="2018-02-28T21:57:27.820" UserId="2892" Text="A recent question on similarities between [Zeus and the Christian God][1], and it occurred to me God striking down sinners with lightening is a trope, but, offhand, I can't think of stories from the bible that feature this.  By contrast, Zeus was famous for the offensive power of his thunderbolts, with which he smote mighty [Typhon][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is not to suggest that lightening is not in the domain of the Lord of Hosts--the Old Testament makes it clear it is, and lightening does come up in the verses numerous times--just that I can't find any stories about him striking anyone down with it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/3349/is-there-a-connection-between-odin-or-zeus-and-the-christian-god&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhon" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13650" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3422" RevisionGUID="5cd9cea4-d156-4c62-8885-80bf0f57ac47" CreationDate="2018-02-28T21:57:27.820" UserId="2892" Text="The Lord of Hosts smiting with lightening?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13651" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3422" RevisionGUID="5cd9cea4-d156-4c62-8885-80bf0f57ac47" CreationDate="2018-02-28T21:57:27.820" UserId="2892" Text="|abrahamic-religions|bible|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13653" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3289" RevisionGUID="fc06e9b5-c5dd-420b-9a54-5cc7439b828f" CreationDate="2018-03-01T11:13:07.490" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="13661" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3424" RevisionGUID="134fda16-01cb-47a8-bb7e-21f2b15d066c" CreationDate="2018-03-01T17:30:38.957" UserId="4816" Text="Going from a non-literary standpoint and into a metaphorical one, one could figure it was like the gods' version of making someone walk &quot;barefoot on broken glass&quot; to get what they want. A lot of them didn't want Troy to fall, so when they made that ultimatum with the wind, the idea was Agamemnon would see it as 'not worth it', but at the same time, they weren't outright barring him from doing it. They just figured they'd all give up when it turns out a guy loves his own flesh and blood more than he does cutting flesh and spilling blood.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Surprise, surprise, he actually kills his own daughter just so he can go kill some other people!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moral of *this* story: Greek main characters are the worst" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13662" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3425" RevisionGUID="1f46b056-6db9-44d2-a3ea-35e1accd123a" CreationDate="2018-03-01T18:45:21.183" UserId="2892" Text="Great question.  Homer is definitely the place to start, but fuller understanding requires the Greek dramatists, [Aeschylus][1], [Sophocles][2], and [Euripides][3], who were commenting on, and extending, Homer.  *(Euripides, in particular, was quite incisive in his deconstriction of the events surrounding the Trojan War.  The [Trojan Women][4] is still generally considered the greatest anti-war play of all time, without any notable successor until Brecht's [Mother Courage and her Children][5].)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- In terms of general survey, you probably want to start with:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Theogony][7] of [Hesiod][6] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Bibliotheca][8] of [Apollodorus *(aka pseudo-Apollodorus)*][9]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Metamorphosis][10] of [Ovid *(aka P. Ovidius Naso)*][11]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ovid is especially important in a literary sense per his influence, most notably of Shakespeare. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeschylus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophocles&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euripides&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trojan_Women&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Courage_and_Her_Children&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesiod&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Apollod.&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollodorus_of_Athens&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovid" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13663" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1871" RevisionGUID="edbfb4d4-0042-4ad7-8719-f7bec60db184" CreationDate="2018-03-01T20:42:02.947" UserId="4105" Comment="Spelling in title" Text="Has Setne anything to do with Set?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13664" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1871" RevisionGUID="edbfb4d4-0042-4ad7-8719-f7bec60db184" CreationDate="2018-03-01T20:42:02.947" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 2892, 2682 edit id of 541" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13665" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1324" RevisionGUID="858c76e7-c30e-4ca7-bf82-cda37ea1b85c" CreationDate="2018-03-01T21:11:18.507" UserId="2892" Comment="added 126 characters in body" Text="Titans include Mnemosyne, Tethys, Theia, Phoebe, Rhea, Themis, Oceanus, Hyperion, Coeus, Cronus, Crius and Iapetus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Not to be confused with Giants, who were born to destroy the gods.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanomachy&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Disambiguation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giants_(Greek_mythology)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13666" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1325" RevisionGUID="13e4a8be-2543-4ab4-8125-05c9393d9c56" CreationDate="2018-03-01T21:11:18.507" UserId="2892" Comment="added 37 characters in body" Text="For questions about the Greek Titans." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13667" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3426" RevisionGUID="ab594de1-bf7b-42bf-bb40-e4f300eb9d73" CreationDate="2018-03-01T21:12:11.363" UserId="2892" Text="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deities_of_Slavic_religion" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13668" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3426" RevisionGUID="ab594de1-bf7b-42bf-bb40-e4f300eb9d73" CreationDate="2018-03-01T21:12:11.363" UserId="2892" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13669" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3427" RevisionGUID="e6dbcb18-0c45-42d5-ac9b-29bfdae3065a" CreationDate="2018-03-01T21:12:11.363" UserId="2892" Text="For questions about Slavic mythology and folklore" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13670" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3427" RevisionGUID="e6dbcb18-0c45-42d5-ac9b-29bfdae3065a" CreationDate="2018-03-01T21:12:11.363" UserId="2892" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13671" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3428" RevisionGUID="88d1683c-500f-447b-87d8-fe9c86e5bb8a" CreationDate="2018-03-01T22:35:15.703" UserId="2892" Text="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13672" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3428" RevisionGUID="88d1683c-500f-447b-87d8-fe9c86e5bb8a" CreationDate="2018-03-01T22:35:15.703" UserId="2892" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13673" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3429" RevisionGUID="37e0cba7-cb15-429c-8a6b-005cd5ec748d" CreationDate="2018-03-01T22:35:15.703" UserId="2892" Text="For questions related to the Old and New Testament.  [Disclaimer: Religious subjects are on topic when dealing with the stories and symbols in the bible, but be aware we take a mythographic approach, which may not always be in line with religious doctrine.]" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13674" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3429" RevisionGUID="37e0cba7-cb15-429c-8a6b-005cd5ec748d" CreationDate="2018-03-01T22:35:15.703" UserId="2892" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13675" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3430" RevisionGUID="e303ef3f-3090-4621-bc92-f7a23cc5f181" CreationDate="2018-03-01T22:38:49.580" UserId="2892" Comment="added 28 characters in body" Text="[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/völsung][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Online text for the saga: [The Story of the Volsungs][2] *[Project Gutenberg]*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lsung&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1152/1152-h/1152-h.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13676" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3430" RevisionGUID="e303ef3f-3090-4621-bc92-f7a23cc5f181" CreationDate="2018-03-01T22:38:49.580" UserId="2892" Comment="added 28 characters in body" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13677" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3431" RevisionGUID="8d04f98f-c037-413a-9fe2-6dbae6c436ae" CreationDate="2018-03-01T22:38:49.580" UserId="2892" Comment="added 59 characters in body" Text="For questions on the Saga of the Volsungs.  Fafnir, Brynhild, Sigurð, Atli (Atilla &quot;the Hun&quot;), et al." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13678" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3431" RevisionGUID="8d04f98f-c037-413a-9fe2-6dbae6c436ae" CreationDate="2018-03-01T22:38:49.580" UserId="2892" Comment="added 59 characters in body" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13679" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1876" RevisionGUID="3b5e7cf3-8d50-48b5-b5ae-3463f3674418" CreationDate="2018-03-02T08:55:47.747" UserId="2774" Comment="Edit some bad spelling" Text="That is an historical question probably much more than a mythological one, because the Ramses was often depicted very black, they were perhaps black men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![ramses][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The document over shows a clear proof for Ramses III, which founded the XX dynasty. hh is supposedly not related to Ramses I. As in a lot of places there are a lot of controversies about the skin colour of the Pharaoh. You can find at least a good introduction to this fact on the good old [Wikipedia][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Seth because he was first and foremost the God of desert (Translate, the God of strangers mostly because Egypt was the Nile [they was calling Egypt (The Nile region, not the modern country) the 'whole Earth']) was highly praised by the Ramsesides in general. You find lots of the Ramses and Ramses related wearing a &quot;setic&quot; name, as Seti, for example. But tons of Ramsesides will have Set somewhere in their name. Not necessarily the Pharaoh themselves.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Here is a list of the Pharoah of the XIX dynasty, with the God they relate to:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Ramses (Ra)&#xD;&#xA; - Seti I (Set)&#xD;&#xA; - Ramses II the Great (Ra)&#xD;&#xA; - Meneptah (Ptah)&#xD;&#xA; - Seti II (Set)&#xD;&#xA; - Amenmesse (Amun)&#xD;&#xA; - Siptah (Ptah)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice all of them wear the name of a god in their name! 2 times Ra, 2 times Set, 2 times Ptah. &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Finally Setne is the son of Ramses the Great (Ramses II). In traditional Egyptian old literature Ramses II divided in two distinctive characters:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Sesostris the one you find in Herodotus, the great conquerer (NB: that tradition can relate Sesostris as another pharoah including Seti I)&#xD;&#xA; - Ozymandias which represents a much more magical character. Alan Moore chose his name for one of the heroes in the Watchmen&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ramses II got a HUGE number of children (something like a 100, he was married at least 8 times and got numerous concubines). One of them was this Setne which has been a very brilliant and smart man, an excellent scribe. The Egyptian literature known him as Satni or Satni Khamois. He is most renown for his appearance in the *[Book of Thoth][3]* (as Satni Khamois/Khamoïs) a story where he tries to unravel the mysterious book of Thoth and visits the tomb of Nenerferkeptah. Here is an abriged free [translation][4]. If you can read French you have this wonderful translation by [Gaston Maspero][5], Maspero is the one who cut the bands on Ramses II when he &quot;raised&quot; his arm, by the way. He appears also with his son Seosiris in another story. And finally in a short novel where he betrays an Assyrian beduin of the desert &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the relation between Set and Khawesemet is unquestionable. Just remind that Set has not always been a &quot;bad&quot; god. And between the 3rd/4th dynasty where few of those God existed, egyptians was then mostly interested in magical thing, and the Ptolmeaic era there is lot of time and changes in the myths, the gods and their importance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/UY7Hl.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_race_controversy&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Thoth&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/ael/ael07.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.mediterranee-antique.fr/Auteurs/Fichiers/MNO/Maspero_G/Contes/Contes_107.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13680" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3422" RevisionGUID="af15e4d6-2da7-4ce5-bb9c-329c06ac92d7" CreationDate="2018-03-02T12:17:03.523" UserId="201" Comment="1) fixed repeated typo 2) took poetry out of subject for better SEO" Text="A recent question on similarities between [Zeus and the Christian God][1], and it occurred to me God striking down sinners with lightning is a trope, but, offhand, I can't think of stories from the bible that feature this.  By contrast, Zeus was famous for the offensive power of his thunderbolts, with which he smote mighty [Typhon][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is not to suggest that lightning is not in the domain of the Lord of Hosts — the Old Testament makes it clear it is, and lightning does come up in the verses numerous times — just that I can't find any stories about him striking anyone down with it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/3349/is-there-a-connection-between-odin-or-zeus-and-the-christian-god&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhon" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13681" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3422" RevisionGUID="af15e4d6-2da7-4ce5-bb9c-329c06ac92d7" CreationDate="2018-03-02T12:17:03.523" UserId="201" Comment="1) fixed repeated typo 2) took poetry out of subject for better SEO" Text="Does the Christian God smite people with lightning?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13682" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3432" RevisionGUID="067dcb30-20a1-4f88-9a65-af0e0e48fa9c" CreationDate="2018-03-02T15:49:15.390" UserId="4271" Text="Manticore- head of a human, body of a lion, tail of poisonous spines&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Chimera- head of a lion and goat, snake/dragon as a tail, breaths fire&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yet, when images are drawn of these creatures, they almost always have wings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How, or when, were they first described with wings? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13683" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3432" RevisionGUID="067dcb30-20a1-4f88-9a65-af0e0e48fa9c" CreationDate="2018-03-02T15:49:15.390" UserId="4271" Text="Which ancient Greek author attribute wings to these creatures?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13684" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3432" RevisionGUID="067dcb30-20a1-4f88-9a65-af0e0e48fa9c" CreationDate="2018-03-02T15:49:15.390" UserId="4271" Text="|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13685" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3422" RevisionGUID="13a66005-5d58-4996-897b-403b82d834c5" CreationDate="2018-03-02T17:34:20.063" UserId="2892" Comment="edited title" Text="Does the Abrahamic God smite people with lightning?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13687" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3433" RevisionGUID="00b7a729-2868-4926-b452-be98245b6ea5" CreationDate="2018-03-03T12:23:47.647" UserId="3621" Text="What is the origin of the idea that vampires cannot enter your home without being invited? Does it apply specifically to homes, or does it include any building? A walled garden? A vehicle?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13688" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3433" RevisionGUID="00b7a729-2868-4926-b452-be98245b6ea5" CreationDate="2018-03-03T12:23:47.647" UserId="3621" Text="Origin of “vampires must be invited”?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13689" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3433" RevisionGUID="00b7a729-2868-4926-b452-be98245b6ea5" CreationDate="2018-03-03T12:23:47.647" UserId="3621" Text="|vampires|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13690" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3434" RevisionGUID="c20837e8-18ba-4b66-970f-431fd1bf86e1" CreationDate="2018-03-03T12:30:53.563" UserId="3621" Text="I'm not so sure about “almost always”. But Dungeons &amp; Dragons has probably contributed to popularizing this image of the manticore. &#xA;&#xA;https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manticore_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13691" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3435" RevisionGUID="3b9462d3-0c68-43d2-a4c4-cfe58879168a" CreationDate="2018-03-03T12:50:42.187" UserId="4819" Text="Many of the known gods are physically depicted as strong and tall. However, the god depicted as a dwarf is not often encountered.I have found the Egyptian God, Bes, is there another dwarf god known to him?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13692" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3435" RevisionGUID="3b9462d3-0c68-43d2-a4c4-cfe58879168a" CreationDate="2018-03-03T12:50:42.187" UserId="4819" Text="Are there any dwarf gods in history?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13693" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3435" RevisionGUID="3b9462d3-0c68-43d2-a4c4-cfe58879168a" CreationDate="2018-03-03T12:50:42.187" UserId="4819" Text="|mythohistory|god-items|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13694" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3407" RevisionGUID="4c987f88-b8d1-4a38-88d6-1defc89e13d9" CreationDate="2018-03-03T13:05:49.020" UserId="4525" Comment="made the question more clear" Text="Is there a case in Japanese mythology of an Oni (Big Ogre from a desolate place) willingly helping people or being a inhabitant of a village? If not why can they not integrate into human society? What forces them to live far from civilization?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;TL;DR Japanese ogres - Why can't they just be like normal people?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13695" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3434" RevisionGUID="c9bd2435-a4ee-4bac-9ac0-2ae34d305009" CreationDate="2018-03-03T13:37:34.187" UserId="3621" Comment="added 98 characters in body" Text="I'm not so sure about “almost always”. But Dungeons &amp; Dragons has probably contributed to popularizing this image. In D&amp;D, both the manticore and chimera have wings. &#xA;&#xA;https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manticore_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)&#xA;&#xA;https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13696" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3435" RevisionGUID="963369b3-8402-4ba5-aae2-3b7497058055" CreationDate="2018-03-03T15:33:29.067" UserId="1317" Comment="Improved readability" Text="We don't often see gods depicted as dwarves. Rather, most of them are physically depicted as strong and tall. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have found the Egyptian God [Bes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bes), but is there another dwarf god known to him?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13697" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3435" RevisionGUID="963369b3-8402-4ba5-aae2-3b7497058055" CreationDate="2018-03-03T15:33:29.067" Comment="Proposed by 1317 approved by 4819 edit id of 542" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13698" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3435" RevisionGUID="019fdacf-0907-4403-8755-43a959d7494e" CreationDate="2018-03-03T15:36:05.497" UserId="4819" Comment="deleted 7 characters in body" Text="&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We don't often see gods depicted as dwarves. Rather, most of them are physically depicted as strong and tall.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have found the Egyptian God Bes, but is there another dwarf god known to him?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13699" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3436" RevisionGUID="edd1b8c7-23f0-4b4b-a7a6-ad23ff72a6e8" CreationDate="2018-03-03T17:21:05.207" UserId="4820" Text="Mesopotamia is the ancient Greek name for the land between the rivers, the Euphrates and the Tigris. This geographical location is more or less modern day Iraq. The ancient Sumerians of Mesopotamia was one of the earliest political powers in ancient Mesopotamia, they were since replaced by the Akkadians, who in turn were replaced with another people. The Babylonians was at one point also a regional power in the area, though not contemporary with the Sumerians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason why Sumerian, Mesopotamian and Babylonian mythology being used interchangeably is that they in many ways worshiped the same gods and told the same myths. There is good evidence for seeing the political and cultural landscape of Mesopotamia as one culture that evolved continuously up until the Persian and Macedonian conquest of Mesopotamia. Though there were changes in the gods they worshiped during the millennia and the myths they told, several of the stories and gods can be found in archeological remains from the earliest civilization of Mesopotamia as well as in writings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So to answer your questions, the Sumerian, Mesopotamian and Babylonian mythologies are used interchangeably, and can be hard to differentiate from each other, as they in many ways are just slightly different versions of the same myths and gods. Mesopotamian mythology is used to reference all the mythologies of the region, ranging from Sumerian, Babylonian, Assyrian, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13703" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="1450" RevisionGUID="855caf1a-8b6d-4740-91ce-bf43acd65fb4" CreationDate="2018-03-04T01:42:41.390" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="13705" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3432" RevisionGUID="9f910186-25eb-4535-a845-821034bd34b3" CreationDate="2018-03-04T21:11:21.000" UserId="4271" Comment="added 47 characters in body" Text="Manticore- head of a human, body of a lion, tail of poisonous spines&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Chimera- head of a lion and goat, snake/dragon as a tail, breaths fire&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yet, when images are drawn of these creatures, they have wings about half the time. They are usually described as bat wings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How, or when, were they first described with wings? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13706" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3438" RevisionGUID="f4b6517a-08fd-4b85-b96a-397491d5438d" CreationDate="2018-03-04T22:02:35.993" UserId="4271" Text="I am not looking for an exact equivalent(i.e. Shinto god/goddess/gods/goddesses of fate), but if there is, by all means, please let us know. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am looking more along the lines of, do/did those who practice Shintoism believe in set fate or destiny?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am aware of the fact that Shintoism is practiced to this day, but everyone knows religion is prone to change.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, maybe this version of the question is what I should be asking. Has the Shinto religion ever taught that destiny was/is set or preordained?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13707" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3438" RevisionGUID="f4b6517a-08fd-4b85-b96a-397491d5438d" CreationDate="2018-03-04T22:02:35.993" UserId="4271" Text="Is there a Japanese equivalent to the three fates?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13708" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3438" RevisionGUID="f4b6517a-08fd-4b85-b96a-397491d5438d" CreationDate="2018-03-04T22:02:35.993" UserId="4271" Text="|comparative|shinto|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13712" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3440" RevisionGUID="f7f2ddb0-6d38-446f-ae9f-cb8dd08f3847" CreationDate="2018-03-04T22:58:20.333" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13713" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3440" RevisionGUID="f7f2ddb0-6d38-446f-ae9f-cb8dd08f3847" CreationDate="2018-03-04T22:58:20.333" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13714" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3441" RevisionGUID="fd09f850-f3e8-4106-a66c-ceb31b59cd88" CreationDate="2018-03-04T22:58:20.333" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13715" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3441" RevisionGUID="fd09f850-f3e8-4106-a66c-ceb31b59cd88" CreationDate="2018-03-04T22:58:20.333" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13716" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3442" RevisionGUID="232e8f59-9074-41d7-8eec-24a40a171b10" CreationDate="2018-03-04T23:09:09.753" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13717" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3442" RevisionGUID="232e8f59-9074-41d7-8eec-24a40a171b10" CreationDate="2018-03-04T23:09:09.753" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13718" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3443" RevisionGUID="559546ff-c050-47d6-8e1f-48613659c5b4" CreationDate="2018-03-04T23:09:09.753" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13719" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3443" RevisionGUID="559546ff-c050-47d6-8e1f-48613659c5b4" CreationDate="2018-03-04T23:09:09.753" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13720" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3444" RevisionGUID="267194dd-4328-4a08-b1a4-01336e1aeba8" CreationDate="2018-03-04T23:09:52.617" UserId="4825" Text="I don't remember where I read this, but I've got the feeling that Agamemnon, somehow won Helen for his little brother Menelaus. If so, how did he do it?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If not, then how was Helen's suitor chosen?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13721" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3444" RevisionGUID="267194dd-4328-4a08-b1a4-01336e1aeba8" CreationDate="2018-03-04T23:09:52.617" UserId="4825" Text="How did Agamemnon won the hand of Helen?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13722" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3444" RevisionGUID="267194dd-4328-4a08-b1a4-01336e1aeba8" CreationDate="2018-03-04T23:09:52.617" UserId="4825" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13723" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3445" RevisionGUID="69957a33-ef65-468a-9075-a583590dabfb" CreationDate="2018-03-04T23:24:53.430" UserId="4271" Text="[![celtiknot?][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This has been antiaganizing me for months. When I asked my mom what this was, she said, apart from a bookmark, it was a Celtic knot. But when [I look it up][2], I get anything but this. What is this? What does it mean? Is it from the Celtic culture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/uQwHY.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.google.com/search?q=celtic%20knot&amp;client=tablet-android-samsung&amp;prmd=ivsn&amp;source=lnms&amp;tbm=isch&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjI-Lz05tPZAhUHEqwKHW24DIkQ_AUIESgB&amp;biw=768&amp;bih=1024" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13724" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3445" RevisionGUID="69957a33-ef65-468a-9075-a583590dabfb" CreationDate="2018-03-04T23:24:53.430" UserId="4271" Text="What does this pendant/symbol mean?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13725" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3445" RevisionGUID="69957a33-ef65-468a-9075-a583590dabfb" CreationDate="2018-03-04T23:24:53.430" UserId="4271" Text="|origins|symbolism|celtic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13726" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3446" RevisionGUID="553d445c-fd20-4f19-b060-00293de382cf" CreationDate="2018-03-04T23:59:12.273" UserId="4271" Text="You are mistaken. It was not he Agamemnon who was chosen by Helen, for he was married and did not wish to be bound to the Oath of Tyndareus. Though, if was feared that he would be claimed by the Oath, if only he divorced his wife/daughter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You ask how Helen's suitor was chosen. Tyndareus sent word out that Helen was to be married off. Many suitor came from the lands, including Odysseus himself. Tynareus say the surplus number of suitor and feared a war. Odysseus then offered a solution to his plight, if only he could be granted the hand of Penelope. The King agreed and Odysseus told him so(*in my own words, but of course*), &quot;You must give sacrifice to the gods, and have the men give oath to protect and defend he who is chosen of any wrong doing in regard to his marriage whatsoever that may be.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After King Tyndareus had all the suitors give oath at The Tomb of the Horse, the animal(a horse of course) was buried in the same self spot. When it was time to chose a husband, the suitors were presented. Helen was given a wreath to put upon the head of her choosing. And who's head shall it be?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not Agamemnon, for he wasn't a suitor. Not Odysseus, but still bound by the Oath of Tyndareus. There was none other then Menelaus, until Paris when we see the Oath invoked.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[http://www.maicar.com/GML/SUITORSHELEN.html][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.maicar.com/GML/SUITORSHELEN.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13727" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3447" RevisionGUID="25428da9-cdbc-4848-933c-fa90ee6fd13f" CreationDate="2018-03-05T00:36:20.137" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13728" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3447" RevisionGUID="25428da9-cdbc-4848-933c-fa90ee6fd13f" CreationDate="2018-03-05T00:36:20.137" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13729" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3448" RevisionGUID="71c9706f-afd8-4c58-98c7-ef287c390e15" CreationDate="2018-03-05T00:36:20.137" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13730" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3448" RevisionGUID="71c9706f-afd8-4c58-98c7-ef287c390e15" CreationDate="2018-03-05T00:36:20.137" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13731" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="3194" RevisionGUID="79e6cb3e-9f34-4d27-a084-98a73593b298" CreationDate="2018-03-05T00:45:16.430" UserId="-1" Comment="60" />
  <row Id="13732" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="1963" RevisionGUID="d1db7ec7-2592-43cd-ba29-2af05fe7b45c" CreationDate="2018-03-05T00:45:16.430" UserId="-1" Comment="61" />
  <row Id="13733" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3449" RevisionGUID="eccb6447-bae7-40a9-955a-820fd04ec83d" CreationDate="2018-03-05T00:58:18.433" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13734" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3449" RevisionGUID="eccb6447-bae7-40a9-955a-820fd04ec83d" CreationDate="2018-03-05T00:58:18.433" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13735" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3450" RevisionGUID="08ff3d71-8cd5-4818-899a-7ef611ab6563" CreationDate="2018-03-05T00:58:18.433" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13736" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3450" RevisionGUID="08ff3d71-8cd5-4818-899a-7ef611ab6563" CreationDate="2018-03-05T00:58:18.433" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13737" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3451" RevisionGUID="a47b05c0-c1fa-447d-aae3-a773506c85dd" CreationDate="2018-03-05T01:50:28.967" UserId="4271" Text="I remember there is a point in the Iliad where they try to put an end to the war. They have two men(one from each side, can't remember who) fight each other to see who gets to keep Helen and her riches. But, the battle was interrupted. A messenger(the extra special word is, &quot;spondorophoroi,&quot; but who can pronounce that) ran upon the battle-field and declared a sacred truce(Ekecheiria).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sacred truce was only(to my knowledge) called when one of the four Pan-Hellenic games were to take place. They include the Olympic games, the Pythian games, the Nemean games and the Isthmian games. Two were held every four years, but not on the same year. The other two were held on the same year, different months, every two years. Again, not falling on the same year of either of the other two.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it feasible to say that one of these four games were taking place? Can we find out which game was taking place?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13738" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3451" RevisionGUID="a47b05c0-c1fa-447d-aae3-a773506c85dd" CreationDate="2018-03-05T01:50:28.967" UserId="4271" Text="The interruption of the duel in the Iliad" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13739" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3451" RevisionGUID="a47b05c0-c1fa-447d-aae3-a773506c85dd" CreationDate="2018-03-05T01:50:28.967" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|trojan-war|games|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13740" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3452" RevisionGUID="d79a723d-b3a8-438d-ae76-9c1d82573eec" CreationDate="2018-03-05T01:52:47.963" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13741" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3452" RevisionGUID="d79a723d-b3a8-438d-ae76-9c1d82573eec" CreationDate="2018-03-05T01:52:47.963" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13742" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3453" RevisionGUID="ae4fd7c9-4fcb-461f-9395-4f29502a30e2" CreationDate="2018-03-05T01:52:47.963" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13743" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3453" RevisionGUID="ae4fd7c9-4fcb-461f-9395-4f29502a30e2" CreationDate="2018-03-05T01:52:47.963" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13744" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3454" RevisionGUID="ea38cb77-b3c5-479c-9655-9aad942f52bb" CreationDate="2018-03-05T01:57:05.357" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13745" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3454" RevisionGUID="ea38cb77-b3c5-479c-9655-9aad942f52bb" CreationDate="2018-03-05T01:57:05.357" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13746" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3455" RevisionGUID="cb3139f4-15b1-4c50-b4cf-1066092155fb" CreationDate="2018-03-05T01:57:05.357" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13747" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3455" RevisionGUID="cb3139f4-15b1-4c50-b4cf-1066092155fb" CreationDate="2018-03-05T01:57:05.357" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13748" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3456" RevisionGUID="9013d223-2f41-4809-a7ec-22a499b5d7f3" CreationDate="2018-03-05T01:59:41.737" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13749" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3456" RevisionGUID="9013d223-2f41-4809-a7ec-22a499b5d7f3" CreationDate="2018-03-05T01:59:41.737" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13750" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3457" RevisionGUID="2610e470-a288-44b9-91e4-ffa2c14bb591" CreationDate="2018-03-05T01:59:41.737" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13751" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3457" RevisionGUID="2610e470-a288-44b9-91e4-ffa2c14bb591" CreationDate="2018-03-05T01:59:41.737" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13752" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3458" RevisionGUID="66e087d2-6762-47f4-9bf5-71bff2a420da" CreationDate="2018-03-05T02:00:13.127" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13753" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3458" RevisionGUID="66e087d2-6762-47f4-9bf5-71bff2a420da" CreationDate="2018-03-05T02:00:13.127" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13754" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3459" RevisionGUID="2be9eb38-3de2-47c8-ab2d-73b3f7994634" CreationDate="2018-03-05T02:00:13.127" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13755" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3459" RevisionGUID="2be9eb38-3de2-47c8-ab2d-73b3f7994634" CreationDate="2018-03-05T02:00:13.127" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13756" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3460" RevisionGUID="407c718b-4443-4346-9f1a-f4977fa74977" CreationDate="2018-03-05T02:02:04.923" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13757" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3460" RevisionGUID="407c718b-4443-4346-9f1a-f4977fa74977" CreationDate="2018-03-05T02:02:04.923" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13758" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3461" RevisionGUID="4c72fddc-f08e-4e55-a4d6-696dbb535d98" CreationDate="2018-03-05T02:02:04.923" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13759" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3461" RevisionGUID="4c72fddc-f08e-4e55-a4d6-696dbb535d98" CreationDate="2018-03-05T02:02:04.923" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13760" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3462" RevisionGUID="f09ba90d-2370-4e65-b37d-5bd4232f0824" CreationDate="2018-03-05T02:03:13.783" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13761" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3462" RevisionGUID="f09ba90d-2370-4e65-b37d-5bd4232f0824" CreationDate="2018-03-05T02:03:13.783" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13762" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3463" RevisionGUID="864bfcfa-6fdb-42a3-a339-2402e5d221ce" CreationDate="2018-03-05T02:03:13.783" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13763" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3463" RevisionGUID="864bfcfa-6fdb-42a3-a339-2402e5d221ce" CreationDate="2018-03-05T02:03:13.783" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13764" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3464" RevisionGUID="96ca887e-298a-4703-898c-0053e40c6c29" CreationDate="2018-03-05T02:05:24.887" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13765" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3464" RevisionGUID="96ca887e-298a-4703-898c-0053e40c6c29" CreationDate="2018-03-05T02:05:24.887" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13766" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3465" RevisionGUID="0454bd67-3c02-4b91-8261-e2141a3121e9" CreationDate="2018-03-05T02:05:24.887" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13767" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3465" RevisionGUID="0454bd67-3c02-4b91-8261-e2141a3121e9" CreationDate="2018-03-05T02:05:24.887" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13768" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3466" RevisionGUID="f3fc53e1-9ef6-40f4-aaf8-b3cc6267bcc4" CreationDate="2018-03-05T02:07:17.577" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13769" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3466" RevisionGUID="f3fc53e1-9ef6-40f4-aaf8-b3cc6267bcc4" CreationDate="2018-03-05T02:07:17.577" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13770" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3467" RevisionGUID="af5505f7-4664-4efd-8b92-7f3f83628f03" CreationDate="2018-03-05T02:07:17.577" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13771" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3467" RevisionGUID="af5505f7-4664-4efd-8b92-7f3f83628f03" CreationDate="2018-03-05T02:07:17.577" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13772" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3468" RevisionGUID="cecb2593-f7d5-451b-8fcf-6416b270f887" CreationDate="2018-03-05T02:09:52.693" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13773" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3468" RevisionGUID="cecb2593-f7d5-451b-8fcf-6416b270f887" CreationDate="2018-03-05T02:09:52.693" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13774" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3469" RevisionGUID="3f9d9921-7b13-4c02-b116-4bbeb5f4164b" CreationDate="2018-03-05T02:09:52.693" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13775" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3469" RevisionGUID="3f9d9921-7b13-4c02-b116-4bbeb5f4164b" CreationDate="2018-03-05T02:09:52.693" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13776" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3470" RevisionGUID="680c57f3-593e-4ce3-b0cb-beb22bca2092" CreationDate="2018-03-05T02:13:24.230" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13777" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3470" RevisionGUID="680c57f3-593e-4ce3-b0cb-beb22bca2092" CreationDate="2018-03-05T02:13:24.230" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13778" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3471" RevisionGUID="b77f6c30-e986-47f6-a984-96423dd19993" CreationDate="2018-03-05T02:13:24.230" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13779" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3471" RevisionGUID="b77f6c30-e986-47f6-a984-96423dd19993" CreationDate="2018-03-05T02:13:24.230" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13780" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3472" RevisionGUID="3038e93d-c09c-465d-be7d-cd93f16d360e" CreationDate="2018-03-05T02:15:23.247" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13781" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3472" RevisionGUID="3038e93d-c09c-465d-be7d-cd93f16d360e" CreationDate="2018-03-05T02:15:23.247" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13782" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3473" RevisionGUID="7575c10b-4d0f-4a93-8638-2f0f7ac15f74" CreationDate="2018-03-05T02:15:23.247" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13783" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3473" RevisionGUID="7575c10b-4d0f-4a93-8638-2f0f7ac15f74" CreationDate="2018-03-05T02:15:23.247" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13785" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3475" RevisionGUID="fdcba921-5f63-488f-97f5-162b46380a60" CreationDate="2018-03-05T10:37:10.343" UserId="4525" Text="I am not very fond of depictions of manticores with human head or face. Did manticore always had a human head, or is it a influence from the sphinx, or some other monster?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13786" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3475" RevisionGUID="fdcba921-5f63-488f-97f5-162b46380a60" CreationDate="2018-03-05T10:37:10.343" UserId="4525" Text="Did manticore always have a human head?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13787" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3475" RevisionGUID="fdcba921-5f63-488f-97f5-162b46380a60" CreationDate="2018-03-05T10:37:10.343" UserId="4525" Text="|greek|monsters|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13788" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3334" RevisionGUID="171cfb6e-ec83-461f-9e3b-04fd8db42722" CreationDate="2018-03-05T12:56:17.040" UserId="4695" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="Maruti is the name of Hanuman and not of his mother.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the line &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hey dukh bhanjan Maruti nandan Sunlo meri pukar..&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Maruti nandan means child Maruti (like you would call someone child 'Name', young 'Name', adult 'Name' or old 'Name' replacing Name with anyone's name in this case Maruti) and not child of Maruti.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13789" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3451" RevisionGUID="3f8572ac-8168-4139-86d9-d8cf07d22c09" CreationDate="2018-03-05T14:12:12.687" UserId="4271" Comment="added 21 characters in body" Text="I remember there is a point in the Iliad where they try to put an end to the war. They have two men(one from each side, Ajax of the Achaeans and Hector of Troy) fight each other to see who gets to keep Helen and her riches. But, the battle was interrupted. A messenger(the extra special word is, &quot;spondorophoroi,&quot; but who can pronounce that) ran upon the battle-field and declared a sacred truce(Ekecheiria).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sacred truce was only(to my knowledge) called when one of the four Pan-Hellenic games were to take place. They include the Olympic games, the Pythian games, the Nemean games and the Isthmian games. Two were held every four years, but not on the same year. The other two were held on the same year, different months, every two years. Again, not falling on the same year of either of the other two.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it feasible to say that one of these four games were taking place? Can we find out which game was taking place?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13791" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3448" RevisionGUID="dcc9f954-2073-4444-96c5-a5084d42f54c" CreationDate="2018-03-05T20:13:16.067" UserId="4271" Comment="added 71 characters in body" Text="For questions pertaining to a group of gods of a religion or mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13792" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3448" RevisionGUID="dcc9f954-2073-4444-96c5-a5084d42f54c" CreationDate="2018-03-05T20:13:16.067" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 967, 108 edit id of 549" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13793" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3463" RevisionGUID="594cdc0f-94b0-4930-be8a-7b4c4655951c" CreationDate="2018-03-05T20:13:25.930" UserId="4271" Comment="added 124 characters in body" Text="Questions related to or pertaining to the Greek demigod and hero, Achilles. He is most known for his role in the Trojan War." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13794" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3463" RevisionGUID="594cdc0f-94b0-4930-be8a-7b4c4655951c" CreationDate="2018-03-05T20:13:25.930" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 967, 108 edit id of 556" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13795" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3461" RevisionGUID="a0485d26-2f11-4ae7-a437-a25c3753bda6" CreationDate="2018-03-05T20:13:28.907" UserId="4271" Comment="added 91 characters in body" Text="Questions related to Mount Olympus, where the Ancient Greeks believed their gods to reside." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13796" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3461" RevisionGUID="a0485d26-2f11-4ae7-a437-a25c3753bda6" CreationDate="2018-03-05T20:13:28.907" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 967, 108 edit id of 555" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13797" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3473" RevisionGUID="a64d972b-2071-498d-b6a1-c3dd9e9b690c" CreationDate="2018-03-05T20:13:31.653" UserId="4271" Comment="added 87 characters in body" Text="Questions pertaining to or related to the Aztec religion, culture, empire or mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13798" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3473" RevisionGUID="a64d972b-2071-498d-b6a1-c3dd9e9b690c" CreationDate="2018-03-05T20:13:31.653" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 967, 108 edit id of 561" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13799" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3459" RevisionGUID="f02b5b40-6d7d-40c8-b774-dd485f657f54" CreationDate="2018-03-05T20:13:34.227" UserId="4271" Comment="added 61 characters in body" Text="Questions related to or pertaining to the Greek hero Theseus." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13800" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3459" RevisionGUID="f02b5b40-6d7d-40c8-b774-dd485f657f54" CreationDate="2018-03-05T20:13:34.227" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 967, 108 edit id of 554" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13801" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3441" RevisionGUID="88ee713d-98aa-4813-a7a2-4115fe982195" CreationDate="2018-03-05T20:13:36.893" UserId="4271" Comment="added 57 characters in body" Text="Questions pertaining to Babylonian mythology, religion..." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13802" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3441" RevisionGUID="88ee713d-98aa-4813-a7a2-4115fe982195" CreationDate="2018-03-05T20:13:36.893" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 967, 108 edit id of 543" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13803" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3455" RevisionGUID="da49e6f2-ed5c-4dde-b227-4a638c6eae26" CreationDate="2018-03-05T20:13:39.557" UserId="4271" Comment="added 80 characters in body" Text="Questions about about or related to the Greek god of wine, son of Zeus, Dionysus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13804" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3455" RevisionGUID="da49e6f2-ed5c-4dde-b227-4a638c6eae26" CreationDate="2018-03-05T20:13:39.557" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 967, 108 edit id of 552" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13805" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="404" RevisionGUID="df831bc5-c528-4430-b2d1-835652e473c1" CreationDate="2018-03-05T20:13:45.670" UserId="4271" Comment="historic correction" Text="For questions about Hercules, the popular name for the Ancient Greek hero and the son of Zeus, known for completing a series of labors." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13806" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="404" RevisionGUID="df831bc5-c528-4430-b2d1-835652e473c1" CreationDate="2018-03-05T20:13:45.670" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 967, 108 edit id of 548" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13807" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3467" RevisionGUID="ec370aa6-9b87-42d6-a51b-309efc2014ab" CreationDate="2018-03-05T20:13:48.270" UserId="4271" Comment="added 170 characters in body" Text="Questions about or pertaining to the company of the Greek hero Jason on his journey to find the Golden Fleece. They get there name from the ship they sailed on, The Argo." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13808" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3467" RevisionGUID="ec370aa6-9b87-42d6-a51b-309efc2014ab" CreationDate="2018-03-05T20:13:48.270" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 967, 108 edit id of 558" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13809" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3471" RevisionGUID="0e371414-bdd1-4cb2-ae9d-1c542241e441" CreationDate="2018-03-05T20:13:53.853" UserId="4271" Comment="added 163 characters in body" Text="Questions pertaining or related to the Roman author Publius Vergilius Maro(or Virgil), most notable for his works, the Eclogues, the Georgics, and the epic Aeneid." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13810" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3471" RevisionGUID="0e371414-bdd1-4cb2-ae9d-1c542241e441" CreationDate="2018-03-05T20:13:53.853" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 967, 108 edit id of 560" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13811" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3469" RevisionGUID="001c4cd1-fbd8-4883-a6cf-60538e19aae0" CreationDate="2018-03-05T20:13:56.277" UserId="4271" Comment="added 96 characters in body" Text="Questions about or pertaining the Greek goddess of archery, the moon, hunting, maidens and more." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13812" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3469" RevisionGUID="001c4cd1-fbd8-4883-a6cf-60538e19aae0" CreationDate="2018-03-05T20:13:56.277" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 967, 108 edit id of 559" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13813" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="116" RevisionGUID="e013eca8-f264-4948-923a-dfd12332295e" CreationDate="2018-03-05T20:14:00.017" UserId="4271" Comment="misplaced comma" Text="For questions about Greek mythology and legends from ancient Greece to the present day." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13814" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="116" RevisionGUID="e013eca8-f264-4948-923a-dfd12332295e" CreationDate="2018-03-05T20:14:00.017" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 967, 108 edit id of 545" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13815" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3465" RevisionGUID="3727b529-6d43-4948-8cab-c5a15f8695e1" CreationDate="2018-03-05T20:14:02.493" UserId="4271" Comment="added 73 characters in body" Text="Questions about the Greek King of the Sea and the earth-shaker, Poseidon." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13816" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3465" RevisionGUID="3727b529-6d43-4948-8cab-c5a15f8695e1" CreationDate="2018-03-05T20:14:02.493" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 967, 108 edit id of 557" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13817" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="333" RevisionGUID="124cef9d-96d9-4e0c-af90-f84f22caf145" CreationDate="2018-03-05T20:14:10.210" UserId="4271" Comment="added 8 characters in body" Text="For questions on the myths, legends, and religious beliefs of the people of Ancient Egypt." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13818" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="333" RevisionGUID="124cef9d-96d9-4e0c-af90-f84f22caf145" CreationDate="2018-03-05T20:14:10.210" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 967, 108 edit id of 547" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13819" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3457" RevisionGUID="9fda02ce-12e1-4f04-a3be-bc77cc351375" CreationDate="2018-03-05T20:14:21.763" UserId="4271" Comment="added 45 characters in body" Text="Questions related to the continent of Africa." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13820" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3457" RevisionGUID="9fda02ce-12e1-4f04-a3be-bc77cc351375" CreationDate="2018-03-05T20:14:21.763" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 967, 108 edit id of 553" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13821" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3443" RevisionGUID="1c13ab38-7a39-4c4b-b739-da8ad5664e96" CreationDate="2018-03-05T20:14:24.200" UserId="4271" Comment="misspelled word" Text="Questions pertaining to the benevolent spirits(sometimes said to be lesser or inferior gods) from Greek Mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13822" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3443" RevisionGUID="1c13ab38-7a39-4c4b-b739-da8ad5664e96" CreationDate="2018-03-05T20:14:24.200" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 967, 108 edit id of 546" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13823" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3450" RevisionGUID="c4b45283-6f53-4ce6-8ce2-3fa098434019" CreationDate="2018-03-05T20:14:43.850" UserId="4271" Comment="added 83 characters in body" Text="Questions related to the 10 year long war between the Trojans and Achaeans(Greeks)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13824" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3450" RevisionGUID="c4b45283-6f53-4ce6-8ce2-3fa098434019" CreationDate="2018-03-05T20:14:43.850" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 967, 108 edit id of 550" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13825" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3451" RevisionGUID="7696116c-939e-4bf6-904e-34117ebbb563" CreationDate="2018-03-05T20:36:54.267" UserId="2892" Comment="added links" Text="I remember there is a point in the Iliad where they try to put an end to the war. They have two men, one from each side, fight each other to see who gets to keep Helen and her riches.  The Achaean champion was big Ajax, and the Trojan champion was Hector. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But the battle was interrupted. A messenger, known as a *spondophoros* ([σπονδοφόρος][1]) ran upon the battle-field and declared a sacred truce, known as an *[ekecheiria][2]* ([ἐκεχειρία][3]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To my knowledge, the sacred truce was only called when one of the four Pan-Hellenic games were to take place. They include the [Olympic Games][4], the [Pythian Games][5], the [Nemean Games][6] and the [Isthmian Games][7]. Two were held every four years, but not on the same year. The other two were held on the same year, different months, every two years. Again, not falling on the same year of either of the other two.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it feasible to say that one of these four games were taking place? Can we find out which game was taking place?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=spondofo%2Fros&amp;la=greek&amp;can=spondofo%2Fros0&amp;prior=spondofori/a#Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=spondofo/ros-contents&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekecheiria&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3De)kexeiri%2Fa&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_Games#Ancient_Olympics&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythian_Games&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemean_Games&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isthmian_Games" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13826" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3451" RevisionGUID="0e7710b5-8ef4-4d16-afb2-502f5812aa7b" CreationDate="2018-03-05T20:43:50.620" UserId="2892" Comment="added links" Text="I remember there is a point in the Iliad where they try to put an end to the war. They have two men, one from each side, fight each other to see who gets to keep Helen and her riches.  The Achaean champion was big Ajax, and the Trojan champion was Hector. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But the battle was interrupted. A messenger, known as a *spondophoros* ([σπονδοφόρος][1]) ran upon the battle-field and declared a sacred truce, known as an *[ekecheiria][2]* ([ἐκεχειρία][3]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To my knowledge, the sacred truce was only called when one of the four Pan-Hellenic games were to take place. They include the [Olympic Games][4], the [Pythian Games][5], the [Nemean Games][6] and the [Isthmian Games][7]. Two were held every four years, but not on the same year. The other two were held on the same year, different months, every two years. Again, not falling on the same year of either of the other two.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Is it feasible to say that one of these four games were taking place? Can we find out which game was taking place?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;You can find an account of the single combat between Hector and Ajax at Perseus: [Iliad, Book VII][9] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=spondofo%2Fros&amp;la=greek&amp;can=spondofo%2Fros0&amp;prior=spondofori/a#Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=spondofo/ros-contents&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekecheiria&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3De)kexeiri%2Fa&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_Games#Ancient_Olympics&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythian_Games&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemean_Games&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isthmian_Games&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.bartleby.com/203/174.html&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D7%3Acard%3D1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13827" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3444" RevisionGUID="4db85a4f-0ab3-4f01-85d9-cc8c93a5fa6f" CreationDate="2018-03-05T21:08:43.807" UserId="2892" Comment="edited title" Text="How did Agamemnon win the hand of Helen?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13828" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3444" RevisionGUID="f2280bd3-fbf6-4799-90e0-c2104519ad77" CreationDate="2018-03-05T21:45:19.300" UserId="2892" Comment="edited title" Text="How did Agamemnon win the hand of Helen for his brother?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13829" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3476" RevisionGUID="16a8defe-d91d-4041-b627-19b281a49d9e" CreationDate="2018-03-05T22:02:04.043" UserId="2892" Text="Very astute question!  In the relationship of the brothers [Atreides][1], there is no question Agamemnon was calling the shots, and the marriage of his brother to Helen was a shrewd maneuver to consolidate power over the Achaeans.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found a reference to this version in a lacuna to Hesiod's [Catalogues of Women][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...and as many women skilled in blameless arts, each holding a golden bowl in her hands. And truly Castor and strong Polydeuces would have made him their brother perforce, but Agamemnon, being son-in-law to Tyndareus, wooed her for his brother Menelaus.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Berlin Papyri, No. 9739 (ll. 11-15)][3]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;*Note: This answer may evolve as I track down additional sources.  Hyginus also wrote on this subject, but those fragments are currently difficult to find online.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atreus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalogue_of_Women&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/HesiodCatalogues.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13830" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3476" RevisionGUID="8d902a63-541f-4bc8-8100-703c21963791" CreationDate="2018-03-05T22:08:15.983" UserId="2892" Comment="added 733 characters in body" Text="Very astute question!  In the relationship of the brothers [Atreides][1], there is no question Agamemnon was calling the shots, and the marriage of his brother to Helen was a shrewd maneuver to consolidate power over the Achaeans.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found a reference to this version in a lacuna to Hesiod's [Catalogues of Women][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...and as many women skilled in blameless arts, each holding a golden bowl in her hands. And truly Castor and strong Polydeuces would have made him their brother perforce, but Agamemnon, being son-in-law to Tyndareus, wooed her for his brother Menelaus.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Berlin Papyri, No. 9739 (ll. 11-15)][3]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of the machinations of Agamemnon, that is more convoluted.  From another fragment, we know that Menelaus was something of a foregone conclusion:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  And from Ithaca the sacred might of Odysseus, Laertes son, who knew many-fashioned wiles, sought her to wife. He never sent gifts for the sake of the neat-ankled maid, for he knew in his heart that golden-haired Menelaus would win, since he was greatest of the Achaeans in possessions and was ever sending messages40 to horse-taming Castor and prize-winning Polydeuces.&#xD;&#xA; &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Berlin Papyri, No. 9739 (ll. 21-27)][3]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is even mention that Tyndareus felt he had to select Menelaus else Agamemnon might divorce his other daughter Clytmnestra. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;*Note: This answer may evolve as I track down additional sources.  Hyginus also wrote on this subject, but those fragments are currently difficult to find online.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atreus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalogue_of_Women&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/HesiodCatalogues.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13831" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3476" RevisionGUID="77862bba-2c32-4cbf-bb1d-346b107f4710" CreationDate="2018-03-05T22:35:06.920" UserId="2892" Comment="added 1462 characters in body" Text="Very astute question!  In the relationship of the brothers [Atreides][1], there is no question Agamemnon was calling the shots, and the marriage of his brother to Helen was a shrewd maneuver to consolidate power over the Achaeans.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found a reference to this version in a lacuna to Hesiod's [Catalogues of Women][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...and as many women skilled in blameless arts, each holding a golden bowl in her hands. And truly Castor and strong Polydeuces would have made him their brother perforce, but Agamemnon, being son-in-law to Tyndareus, wooed her for his brother Menelaus.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Berlin Papyri, No. 9739 (ll. 11-15)][3]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of the machinations of Agamemnon, that is more convoluted.  From another fragment, we know that Menelaus was something of a foregone conclusion:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  And from Ithaca the sacred might of Odysseus, Laertes son, who knew many-fashioned wiles, sought her to wife. He never sent gifts for the sake of the neat-ankled maid, for he knew in his heart that golden-haired Menelaus would win, since he was greatest of the Achaeans in possessions and was ever sending messages40 to horse-taming Castor and prize-winning Polydeuces.&#xD;&#xA; &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Berlin Papyri, No. 9739 (ll. 21-27)][3]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another source mentions that Tyndareus felt he had to select Menelaus else Agamemnon might divorce his other daughter Clytmnestra. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Apollodorus accounts are worth looking at.  Perseus has the text in Greek and English, with notes: [*Bibliotheca* 3.10.7 ff][4]. One passage from his *Epitome* I find elucidating is:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Agamemnon reigned over the Mycenaeans and married Clytaemnestra, daughter of Tyndareus, after slaying her former husband Tantalus, son of Thyestes, with his child. And there were born to Agamemnon a son Orestes, and daughters, Chrysothemis, Electra, and Iphigenia. And Menelaus married Helen and reigned over Sparta, Tyndareus having ceded the kingdom to him.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Apollodorus [*Epitome* 2.16][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If one wanted to get deconstructive in the spirit of Euripides, one might note that the abdication of Tyndareus, after the death of his sons Castor &amp; Pollux, indicates Tyndareus may not have had much of a choice in the matter.  It only the approach of the Dioskouri that initially drove Agamemnon as a supplicant to Tyndareus to get his blessing for Agamemnon's seizure of Clytmnestra from her former husband.  The death of the [Dioskouri][6] might be said to have created a power vacuum in the Peloponnese which the wealthy Atreides were more than happy to fill. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;*Note: This answer may evolve as I track down additional sources.  Hyginus also wrote on this subject, but those fragments are currently difficult to find online.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atreus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalogue_of_Women&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/HesiodCatalogues.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D3%3Achapter%3D10%3Asection%3D7&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DEpitome%3Abook%3DE%3Achapter%3D2%3Asection%3D16&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castor_and_Pollux" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13832" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3476" RevisionGUID="bbc812ae-f491-469f-98bc-4bdebc822503" CreationDate="2018-03-05T22:40:19.323" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 12 characters in body" Text="Very astute question!  In the relationship of the brothers [Atreides][1], there is no question Agamemnon was calling the shots, and the marriage of his brother to Helen was a shrewd maneuver to consolidate power over the Achaeans.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found a reference to this version in Hesiod's [Catalogues of Women][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...and as many women skilled in blameless arts, each holding a golden bowl in her hands. And truly Castor and strong Polydeuces would have made him their brother perforce, but Agamemnon, being son-in-law to Tyndareus, wooed her for his brother Menelaus.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Berlin Papyri, No. 9739 (ll. 11-15)][3]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of the machinations of Agamemnon, that is more convoluted.  From another fragment, we know that Menelaus was something of a foregone conclusion:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  And from Ithaca the sacred might of Odysseus, Laertes son, who knew many-fashioned wiles, sought her to wife. He never sent gifts for the sake of the neat-ankled maid, for he knew in his heart that golden-haired Menelaus would win, since he was greatest of the Achaeans in possessions and was ever sending messages40 to horse-taming Castor and prize-winning Polydeuces.&#xD;&#xA; &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Berlin Papyri, No. 9739 (ll. 21-27)][3]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another source mentions that Tyndareus felt he had to select Menelaus else Agamemnon might divorce his other daughter Clytmnestra. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Apollodorus accounts are worth looking at.  Perseus has the text in Greek and English, with notes: [*Bibliotheca* 3.10.7 ff][4]. One passage from his *Epitome* I find elucidating is:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Agamemnon reigned over the Mycenaeans and married Clytaemnestra, daughter of Tyndareus, after slaying her former husband Tantalus, son of Thyestes, with his child. And there were born to Agamemnon a son Orestes, and daughters, Chrysothemis, Electra, and Iphigenia. And Menelaus married Helen and reigned over Sparta, Tyndareus having ceded the kingdom to him.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Apollodorus [*Epitome* 2.16][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If one wanted to get deconstructive in the spirit of Euripides, one might note that the abdication of Tyndareus, after the death of his sons Castor &amp; Pollux, indicates Tyndareus may not have had much of a choice in the matter.  It only the approach of the Dioskouri that initially drove Agamemnon as a supplicant to Tyndareus to get his blessing for Agamemnon's seizure of Clytmnestra from her former husband.  The death of the [Dioskouri][6] might be said to have created a power vacuum in the Peloponnese which the wealthy Atreides were more than happy to fill. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;*Note: This answer may evolve as I track down additional sources.  Hyginus also wrote on this subject, but those fragments are currently difficult to find online.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atreus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalogue_of_Women&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/HesiodCatalogues.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D3%3Achapter%3D10%3Asection%3D7&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DEpitome%3Abook%3DE%3Achapter%3D2%3Asection%3D16&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castor_and_Pollux" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13833" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3476" RevisionGUID="e4646bfb-d523-4956-b194-8b19b4fae9d4" CreationDate="2018-03-05T22:45:45.743" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 12 characters in body" Text="Very astute question!  In the relationship of the brothers [Atreides][1], there is no question Agamemnon was calling the shots, and the marriage of his brother to Helen was a shrewd maneuver to consolidate power over the Achaeans.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found a reference to this version in Hesiod's [Catalogues of Women][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...and as many women skilled in blameless arts, each holding a golden bowl in her hands. And truly Castor and strong Polydeuces would have made him their brother perforce, but Agamemnon, being son-in-law to Tyndareus, wooed her for his brother Menelaus.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Berlin Papyri, No. 9739 (ll. 11-15)][3]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The inference is that Agamemnon, as husband of Helen's sister, and a rising power in the land, had extra sway with his father-in-law.  *(One has only to look at current events to see this relationship still carries weight.)* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of the machinations of Agamemnon, that may be a more convoluted subject.  From another fragment, we know that Menelaus was something of a foregone conclusion:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  And from Ithaca the sacred might of Odysseus, Laertes son, who knew many-fashioned wiles, sought her to wife. He never sent gifts for the sake of the neat-ankled maid, for he knew in his heart that golden-haired Menelaus would win, since he was greatest of the Achaeans in possessions and was ever sending messages40 to horse-taming Castor and prize-winning Polydeuces.&#xD;&#xA; &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Berlin Papyri, No. 9739 (ll. 21-27)][3]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another source mentions that Tyndareus felt he had to select Menelaus else Agamemnon might divorce his other daughter Clytmnestra. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Apollodorus accounts are worth looking at.  Perseus has the text in Greek and English, with notes: [*Bibliotheca* 3.10.7 ff][4]. One passage from his *Epitome* I find elucidating is:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Agamemnon reigned over the Mycenaeans and married Clytaemnestra, daughter of Tyndareus, after slaying her former husband Tantalus, son of Thyestes, with his child. And there were born to Agamemnon a son Orestes, and daughters, Chrysothemis, Electra, and Iphigenia. And Menelaus married Helen and reigned over Sparta, Tyndareus having ceded the kingdom to him.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Apollodorus [*Epitome* 2.16][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If one wanted to get deconstructive in the spirit of Euripides, one might note that the abdication of Tyndareus, after the death of his sons Castor &amp; Pollux, indicates Tyndareus may not have had much of a choice in the matter.  It only the approach of the Dioskouri that initially drove Agamemnon as a supplicant to Tyndareus to get his blessing for Agamemnon's seizure of Clytmnestra from her former husband.  The death of the [Dioskouri][6] might be said to have created a power vacuum in the Peloponnese which the wealthy Atreides were more than happy to fill. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;*Note: This answer may evolve as I track down additional sources.  Hyginus also wrote on this subject, but those fragments are currently difficult to find online.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atreus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalogue_of_Women&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/HesiodCatalogues.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D3%3Achapter%3D10%3Asection%3D7&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DEpitome%3Abook%3DE%3Achapter%3D2%3Asection%3D16&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castor_and_Pollux" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13835" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3477" RevisionGUID="ec6a50a4-f664-4cae-b470-cbb407404b4a" CreationDate="2018-03-06T09:58:53.540" UserDisplayName="user4660" Text="It  looks like a kind of square/cross or octagon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Square / cross** is symbol of [Tetragrammaton][1], the four-letter biblical name of the God.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Octagon** is the ultimate balance between physical and invisible forces. Harmony and perfect equality between matter and spirit.  a oneness of the two. The male and female as one. The fully aware humanity. Exhalation of the breath of creation. It is completion of a cycle and infinity of consciousness.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13836" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3478" RevisionGUID="59f10c77-c3f1-4348-ac10-51a82569e918" CreationDate="2018-03-06T16:33:04.613" UserId="57" Text="No, none of the games that involved a sacred truce took place in the years of the Trojan War. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The concept of the sacred truce was introduced in 765 BC, the year of the first Olympiad. That's four centuries after the events described in the Iliad, according to the [traditional dating][1]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_War#Dates_of_the_Trojan_War&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Olympic_Games#History" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13837" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3479" RevisionGUID="bfe9b6e6-4179-4d08-972a-391bf1f84b54" CreationDate="2018-03-06T16:36:54.413" UserId="4271" Text="Every version I have read has Perseus given a shield by Athena. He uses the shield to see Medusa's reflection to cut her head off. Some time later, he gave the shield and the head to Athena. Athena then put the head in the shield.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If the shield is Athena's, why is Zeus sometimes said to have it? Also, I think I remember a point in the Iliad that had Apollo wield the shield. Why would Apollo have it? Why would Athena lend anyone her aegis?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13838" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3479" RevisionGUID="bfe9b6e6-4179-4d08-972a-391bf1f84b54" CreationDate="2018-03-06T16:36:54.413" UserId="4271" Text="When did Zeus get the aegis?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13839" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3479" RevisionGUID="bfe9b6e6-4179-4d08-972a-391bf1f84b54" CreationDate="2018-03-06T16:36:54.413" UserId="4271" Text="|zeus|athena|aegis|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13840" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3478" RevisionGUID="72db02ef-36e4-4c1f-b38c-77e3f1b41a9c" CreationDate="2018-03-06T16:41:18.803" UserId="57" Comment="added 252 characters in body" Text="No, none of the games that involved a sacred truce took place in the years of the Trojan War. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The concept of the sacred truce was introduced in 765 BC, the year of the first Olympiad. That's four centuries after the events described in the Iliad, according to the [traditional dating][1]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apart from the timeline, we should consider that the point of the sacred truce was to allow visitors to travel safely to Olympia. Troy is nowhere near Olympia, even if there was an Olympiad going on, there would be little reason for the war to stop. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_War#Dates_of_the_Trojan_War&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Olympic_Games#History" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13841" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3453" RevisionGUID="8b6b6120-f382-4271-826f-91bfd65ca221" CreationDate="2018-03-06T16:42:06.583" UserId="4271" Comment="added 107 characters in body" Text="Not part of any one mythology. But rather used to describe games of any sort from any mythology or culture." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13842" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3453" RevisionGUID="8b6b6120-f382-4271-826f-91bfd65ca221" CreationDate="2018-03-06T16:42:06.583" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 967, 2774 edit id of 551" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13843" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3432" RevisionGUID="e036bdf0-c425-4eab-bdc6-54617b9309d8" CreationDate="2018-03-06T17:37:49.877" UserId="4271" Comment="edited question, added information" Text="Manticore- head of a human, body of a lion, tail of poisonous spines&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Chimera- head of a lion and goat, snake/dragon as a tail, breaths fire&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yet, when images are drawn of these creatures, they have wings about half the time. They are usually described as bat wings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    The Chimera is also not depicted by Greeks with wings. I would suggest back up or editing a little bit the question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If not by Greeks, then by who? How, or when, were they first described with wings? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13844" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3432" RevisionGUID="e036bdf0-c425-4eab-bdc6-54617b9309d8" CreationDate="2018-03-06T17:37:49.877" UserId="4271" Comment="edited question, added information" Text="When did wings become an attribute to these creatures?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13845" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3480" RevisionGUID="2062953c-4faf-4f56-bac1-fc784a1cc90c" CreationDate="2018-03-06T17:53:55.193" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13846" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3480" RevisionGUID="2062953c-4faf-4f56-bac1-fc784a1cc90c" CreationDate="2018-03-06T17:53:55.193" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13847" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3481" RevisionGUID="9488b73d-6285-4f48-bc21-cd58b3028fdf" CreationDate="2018-03-06T17:53:55.193" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13848" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3481" RevisionGUID="9488b73d-6285-4f48-bc21-cd58b3028fdf" CreationDate="2018-03-06T17:53:55.193" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13849" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3482" RevisionGUID="40e842a0-2bbd-47b0-bd33-cfd954fa3cda" CreationDate="2018-03-06T17:56:06.937" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13850" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3482" RevisionGUID="40e842a0-2bbd-47b0-bd33-cfd954fa3cda" CreationDate="2018-03-06T17:56:06.937" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13851" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3483" RevisionGUID="0dcd5758-db98-4749-8616-750bcaa9ca55" CreationDate="2018-03-06T17:56:06.937" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13852" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3483" RevisionGUID="0dcd5758-db98-4749-8616-750bcaa9ca55" CreationDate="2018-03-06T17:56:06.937" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13853" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3484" RevisionGUID="8e55f6e8-6351-44ed-a2d6-13968ea498f6" CreationDate="2018-03-06T17:56:55.790" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13854" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3484" RevisionGUID="8e55f6e8-6351-44ed-a2d6-13968ea498f6" CreationDate="2018-03-06T17:56:55.790" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13855" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3485" RevisionGUID="24035606-a3b2-4b81-b321-37ec2c52f7ad" CreationDate="2018-03-06T17:56:55.790" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13856" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3485" RevisionGUID="24035606-a3b2-4b81-b321-37ec2c52f7ad" CreationDate="2018-03-06T17:56:55.790" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13857" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3479" RevisionGUID="8f26385d-1acd-4ebd-8445-467da1c68d8d" CreationDate="2018-03-06T18:00:48.447" UserId="4271" Comment="added tag" Text="|zeus|athena|god-items|aegis|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13858" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3486" RevisionGUID="a059d493-d09b-4596-96e6-5cf8b8431f1c" CreationDate="2018-03-06T20:14:07.773" UserId="2892" Text="Before you automatically downvote this question, I highly suggest reading this article: [Thor vs. Odin][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The article background covers the relationship of Thor and Odin, and reveals that things are not as straight forward as is commonly believed:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The name of one king there was Munon or Mennon. He was married to the daughter of the high king Priam; she was called Troan. They had a son, called Tror; we call him Thor… [he meets Sif, his wife, and]… Their son was Loridi, who took after his father… [for 16 more generations, until] … He had a son whose name was Woden, it is him that we call Odin.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Prose Edda, Prologue (Faulkes)][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What's the deal?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, why might have Snorri presented this alternate version in the prologue?  *(He sticks to the conventional version in the main text, so it's not unreasonable to assume some intent.)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://earthandstarryheaven.com/2017/12/13/thor-vs-odin/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://vsnrweb-publications.org.uk/EDDArestr.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13859" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3486" RevisionGUID="a059d493-d09b-4596-96e6-5cf8b8431f1c" CreationDate="2018-03-06T20:14:07.773" UserId="2892" Text="Is Odin Thor's father?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13860" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3486" RevisionGUID="a059d493-d09b-4596-96e6-5cf8b8431f1c" CreationDate="2018-03-06T20:14:07.773" UserId="2892" Text="|norse|odin|thor|prose-edda|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13861" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3487" RevisionGUID="2031ebf1-7a7a-4d8b-9eed-a7dcf239bfe4" CreationDate="2018-03-06T21:12:15.893" UserId="2892" Text="The nature of the aegis depends on what source you're looking at.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Euripides suggests that the aegis was the skin of the slain Gorgon, but the Gorgon is commonly held to be a later addition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Diodorus Siculus claims it was the skin of a monster that Athena killed and flayed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The twelfth century Byzantine poet John Tzetzes claims it was the skin of the giant [Pallas][1], who Athena slew.     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But I think Hyginus has it right, that the aegis was originally a goat skin. This is because the word &quot;aegis&quot; ([αἰγίς][2]) means &quot;goatskin&quot;.  *(My most knowledgeable Greek professor even related it to the golden fleece.)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Autenrieth][3] entry is also worth looking at because it relates it to a storm cloud, which is domain of Zeus, and may carry the implication that it is an inherent part of his nature, and was with him as soon as he could exercise power over the sky and related natural forces.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;See Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegis#Etymology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pallas_(Giant)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dai)gi%2Fs&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0073%3Aentry%3Dai)gi%2Fs" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13863" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3481" RevisionGUID="503c80cc-c6c8-4067-95aa-4f9331f30f2e" CreationDate="2018-03-07T00:27:26.070" UserId="4271" Comment="added 139 characters in body" Text="Used when talking about questions pertaining to the amalgamation(mix, blend, combining...) of different religions, cultures, mythologies..." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13864" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3481" RevisionGUID="503c80cc-c6c8-4067-95aa-4f9331f30f2e" CreationDate="2018-03-07T00:27:26.070" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by -1 edit id of 562" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13865" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3481" RevisionGUID="03d613e3-1425-4366-b224-54b57423b49c" CreationDate="2018-03-07T00:27:26.070" UserId="292" Comment="small fix (needed a space before the brackets)" Text="Used when talking about questions pertaining to the amalgamation (mix, blend, combining...) of different religions, cultures, mythologies..." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13866" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3489" RevisionGUID="b98edf4d-be22-42c1-8163-020684133e38" CreationDate="2018-03-07T05:56:29.420" UserId="4820" Text="As you say Snorri Sturluson writes this cited text in the prologue to his Prose Edda, one of our chief sources of Norse mythology. The old Scandinavian worshipers did not have a written language comparable to that of Latin of the Roman church. As such we have next to nothing about the Norse myths written by Scandinavians who were actively telling these myths and believing in these Norse gods, such as Odin and Thor. Instead we must rely on sources written after the conversion of the Scandinavian homelands and colonies to christianity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is in this context that I suggest you read Snorri Sturlusons prologue. Snorri wrote his Prose Edda some 200 years after Iceland converted to Christianity, at this point the worship of the old gods had faded. But some of the myths were still known either from scaldic poetry or eddic poems of which he cites throughout his edda, many of them are preserved in the poetic edda. Snorri wrote his prose edda to serve as a handbook to these myths, before they were forgotten. But as a Christian in a Christian society this is not always seen as a good thing, and could get him in trouble. So instead Snorri wrote in his prologue that the gods of old were in reality great men and kings that went north and settled in Scandinavia, here their rule were so beneficial to the Scandinavians that over time they became gods in the mind of the Scandinavian descendants. This approach to gods is called Euhemerism, when you say gods are in reality misremembered heroes and legendary men/women. Thereby Snorri has made it clear to his audience that this his Prose Edda is not to be taken as a pagan text that could land him in trouble, and thus he is free to present the actual myths and gods in his main text.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So to answer your question: Disregard the prologue and look at the main text. Odin is Thors father." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13869" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3483" RevisionGUID="d54cc0cd-01c4-43f8-a42b-66fdfba0acd3" CreationDate="2018-03-07T11:58:30.980" UserId="4271" Comment="added 65 characters in body" Text="The shield used by Athena, and sometimes Zeus, in Greek Mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13870" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3483" RevisionGUID="d54cc0cd-01c4-43f8-a42b-66fdfba0acd3" CreationDate="2018-03-07T11:58:30.980" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 2774, 1241 edit id of 563" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13871" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3485" RevisionGUID="5f6792d8-9a67-46b2-9107-539e081126a7" CreationDate="2018-03-07T11:58:50.433" UserId="4271" Comment="added 72 characters in body" Text="Used when talking about question pertaining to the Greek goddess of love" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13872" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3485" RevisionGUID="5f6792d8-9a67-46b2-9107-539e081126a7" CreationDate="2018-03-07T11:58:50.433" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 2774, 1241 edit id of 564" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13873" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3491" RevisionGUID="472c2669-20bb-4a6b-8f2b-0df5248dea59" CreationDate="2018-03-07T12:30:50.437" UserId="57" Text="In [*The Lives of Dwarfs: Their Journey from Public Curiosity toward Social Liberation*][1], Betty Adelson identifies Sukuna-biko, an ally of [Okuninushi][2] in Shinto mythology, as an example of a dwarf god: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In a Japanese tale, the Great-Land-Master, an excellent and just ruler, is standing on the shore when a dwarf god named Suku-na-biko, &quot;The Small Renown Man,&quot; comes in from the sea on a raft, wearing a mantle of feathers and dressed in moth's wings. The dwarf tells the Great-Land-Master that he is the son of the Divine-Producing goddess and expert at the healing arts. A close friendship develops and the two collaborate at cultivating medicinal plants and curing disease. Despite being unable to walk on his tiny legs, Suku-na-biko knows everyone and goes everywhere. Ultimately, he climbs on a millet stalk, which bounces back and sends him to Tokyo, the Land of Eternity. Even today his name is often invoked for medical assistance, and he is called upon to lead people to curative springs. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.amazon.com/Lives-Dwarfs-Journey-Curiosity-Liberation/dp/0813535484&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%8Ckuninushi" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13874" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3492" RevisionGUID="3dba1203-91c1-46fc-b66b-16ace81d25dd" CreationDate="2018-03-07T14:14:33.193" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13875" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3492" RevisionGUID="3dba1203-91c1-46fc-b66b-16ace81d25dd" CreationDate="2018-03-07T14:14:33.193" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13876" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3493" RevisionGUID="90fc02d9-1906-48ee-9c81-d869afe61aba" CreationDate="2018-03-07T14:14:33.193" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13877" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3493" RevisionGUID="90fc02d9-1906-48ee-9c81-d869afe61aba" CreationDate="2018-03-07T14:14:33.193" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13878" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3494" RevisionGUID="834c5ea8-dfda-4253-98a6-f86fd4231452" CreationDate="2018-03-07T14:46:20.203" UserId="4271" Text="I'm a little confused. In the Golden Age, it is said that humans and deities lived harmoniously, also living long lives. In the Silver Age, Zeus said that humans will live 100 years as children. But, because that did not pay tribute to the gods, Zeus killed them. The Bronze Age ends with the flood into the Heroic Age.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is what I'm confused about. If Prometheus created humans out of mud/clay/earth, how could humans have lived in the Gold and Silver Ages?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13879" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3494" RevisionGUID="834c5ea8-dfda-4253-98a6-f86fd4231452" CreationDate="2018-03-07T14:46:20.203" UserId="4271" Text="Humans and Ages of Man" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13880" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3494" RevisionGUID="834c5ea8-dfda-4253-98a6-f86fd4231452" CreationDate="2018-03-07T14:46:20.203" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|creation|ages-of-man|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13881" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3495" RevisionGUID="8cfb989a-6129-4bf9-ae95-9bad2d927b34" CreationDate="2018-03-07T15:26:07.310" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13882" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3495" RevisionGUID="8cfb989a-6129-4bf9-ae95-9bad2d927b34" CreationDate="2018-03-07T15:26:07.310" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13883" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3496" RevisionGUID="09d48124-afb3-4f0a-9566-5ba2c16104a7" CreationDate="2018-03-07T15:26:07.310" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13884" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3496" RevisionGUID="09d48124-afb3-4f0a-9566-5ba2c16104a7" CreationDate="2018-03-07T15:26:07.310" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13885" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3493" RevisionGUID="02566a64-eb75-4928-ac8c-e43e5ccfc299" CreationDate="2018-03-07T15:48:19.850" UserId="4271" Comment="added 212 characters in body" Text="The ages of man refer to Greek Mythology's five(or four) time periods. They are: the Golden age, The Silver age, The Bronze age, The Heroic age(excluded by Ovid) and the Iron age in which we are currently living." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13886" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3493" RevisionGUID="02566a64-eb75-4928-ac8c-e43e5ccfc299" CreationDate="2018-03-07T15:48:19.850" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 2774, 183 edit id of 565" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13887" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3436" RevisionGUID="ff3d19eb-e070-44f4-b5c0-1fbdfac3e378" CreationDate="2018-03-07T18:29:51.990" UserId="2892" Comment="added links as requested by Ken Graham." Text="[Mesopotamia][1] is the ancient Greek name for the land between the rivers, the Euphrates and the Tigris. This geographical location is more or less modern day Iraq. The ancient [Sumerians][2] of Mesopotamia was one of the earliest political powers in ancient Mesopotamia, they were since replaced by the [Akkadians][3], who in turn were replaced with another people. The Babylonians was at one point also a regional power in the area, though not contemporary with the Sumerians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason why Sumerian, Mesopotamian and [Babylonian][4] mythology being used interchangeably is that they in many ways worshiped the same gods and told the same myths. There is good evidence for seeing the political and cultural landscape of Mesopotamia as one culture that evolved continuously up until the [Persian][5] and [Macedonian][6] conquest of Mesopotamia. Though there were changes in the gods they worshiped during the millennia and the myths they told, several of the stories and gods can be found in archaeological remains from the earliest civilization of Mesopotamia as well as in writings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So to answer your questions, the Sumerian, Mesopotamian and Babylonian mythologies are used interchangeably, and can be hard to differentiate from each other, as they in many ways are just slightly different versions of the same myths and gods. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mesopotamian mythology is used to reference all the mythologies of the region, ranging from Sumerian, Babylonian, Assyrian, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamia#Etymology&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akkadian_Empire&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Empire#Achaemenids&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great#Conquest_of_the_Persian_Empire" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13891" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3489" RevisionGUID="b60a8b83-1816-4ac5-8e3a-9d0a0dd0ac56" CreationDate="2018-03-07T18:33:37.683" UserId="2892" Comment="added a couple of links since there are terms that will be unfamiliar to many" Text="As you say Snorri Sturluson writes this cited text in the prologue to his Prose Edda, one of our chief sources of Norse mythology. The old Scandinavian worshipers did not have a written language comparable to that of Latin of the Roman church. As such we have next to nothing about the Norse myths written by Scandinavians who were actively telling these myths and believing in these Norse gods, such as Odin and Thor. Instead we must rely on sources written after the conversion of the Scandinavian homelands and colonies to Christianity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Snorri wrote his Prose Edda some 200 years after Iceland converted to Christianity, at this point the worship of the old gods had faded. But some of the myths were still known either from [scaldic poetry][1] or [eddic poems][2] of which he cites throughout his edda, many of them are preserved in the poetic edda. Snorri wrote his prose edda to serve as a handbook to these myths, before they were forgotten. But as a Christian in a Christian society this is not always seen as a good thing, and could get him in trouble. So instead Snorri wrote in his prologue that the gods of old were in reality great men and kings that went north and settled in Scandinavia, here their rule were so beneficial to the Scandinavians that over time they became gods in the mind of the Scandinavian descendants. This approach to gods is called [Euhemerism][3], when you say gods are in reality misremembered heroes and legendary men/women. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thereby Snorri has made it clear to his audience that this his Prose Edda is not to be taken as a pagan text that could land him in trouble, and thus he is free to present the actual myths and gods in his main text.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So to answer your question: Disregard the prologue and look at the main text. Odin is Thors father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skald&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euhemerism" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13892" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2492" RevisionGUID="965375ea-775a-418c-a6b6-b24ef2bdd300" CreationDate="2018-03-07T18:35:03.700" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 12 characters in body" Text="1. It was quite common to sack towns on the trip to, from, and even during the war.  (Compare to the medieval Crusaders.) I don't have time to run down specific examples, but there is a discussion here: [Why did Homer’s Greeks sack so many cities in the Trojan War? Does it make them mostly pirates and slave raiders?][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. Ostensibly the gentrified townsfolk were not fierce as their country neighbors: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Meanwhile the Cicones went and called to other Cicones who were their neighbors, at once more numerous and braver than they—men that dwelt inland and were skilled at fighting with their foes from chariots, and, if need were, on foot.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Odyssey 9, 47-50][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. Totally normal.  Completely acceptable.  Generally perceived as admirable, thus gladly recounted by Odysseus.  (See 1.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. Women were generally regarded as chattel.  The term &quot;booty&quot; is most apropos.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4(b) Only significant prizes would be worth mentioning, such as [Andromache][3].    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4(c) Yup.  They are chattel, not worth mentioning unless they previously had high status.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is part of why [Euripides][4] is so important and even radical, shedding light on characters such as [Polyxena][5], Cassandra and Hecuba, and the plight of the [Trojan Women][6], after the fall of Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;5. He was probably just relieved Odysseus spared him, even though Odysseus' actions were based on fear of Apollo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/32312/why-did-homer-s-greeks-sack-so-many-cities-in-the-trojan-war-does-it-make-them&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D47&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromache_(play)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euripides#A_fabled_life&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecuba_(play)&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trojan_Women#Plot" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13894" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="3432" RevisionGUID="1559ba4e-f9f2-4994-bc82-2ee0a2824341" CreationDate="2018-03-07T23:03:28.857" UserId="57" Comment="103" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:1317,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Spencer&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;yannis&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="13895" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3496" RevisionGUID="7f1e7996-d914-4e0c-9118-adf00ea543d9" CreationDate="2018-03-07T23:41:09.140" UserId="4271" Comment="added 136 characters in body" Text="Prose-Edda is an Old Norse work of literature written in Iceland in the early 13th century. It is a prominent source of Norse Mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13896" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3496" RevisionGUID="7f1e7996-d914-4e0c-9118-adf00ea543d9" CreationDate="2018-03-07T23:41:09.140" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 2774, 967 edit id of 566" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13897" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3498" RevisionGUID="d7d1029f-03f8-46f0-aef1-3c3d3229d2a0" CreationDate="2018-03-08T09:28:52.920" UserId="1358" Text="I recall that Scathach taught martial arts to Cú Chulainn on the Isle of Skye.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia confirms this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Scáthach (Scottish Gaelic: Sgàthach an Eilean Sgitheanach), or Sgathaich, is a figure in the Ulster Cycle of Irish mythology. She is a legendary Scottish warrior woman and martial arts teacher who trains the legendary Ulster hero Cú Chulainn in the arts of combat. Texts describe her homeland as Scotland (Alpeach); she is especially associated with the Isle of Skye, where her residence Dún Scáith, or &quot;Dun Sgathaich&quot; (Fortress of Shadows), stands.[1][2] She is called &quot;the Shadow&quot; and &quot;Warrior Maid&quot; and is the rival and sister of Aífe, both daughters of Árd-Greimne of Lethra.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sc%C3%A1thach][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sc%C3%A1thach" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13900" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="2640" RevisionGUID="a2118bee-511d-4171-9d4d-5488e85b3f5f" CreationDate="2018-03-08T13:37:13.823" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="13901" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2468" RevisionGUID="2edafb82-b74e-4a49-8702-bdc319b5d7f2" CreationDate="2018-03-08T13:37:17.667" UserId="3530" Comment="deleted 56 characters in body; edited title" Text="Open question for thoughts and explanations re Odysseus’ raid on the Cicones (also called Kikonians) while on his way home from the Trojan War, on any of my questions below and/or other thoughts of your own.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Homer’s [Odyssey Book 9][1], Odysseus tells his Phaeacian hosts of his adventures while returning victorious from Troy, beginning with how, leading his men home in 12 ships (I have added 3 explanatory notes I have researched):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “From Ilium [Troy] storms blew me to the Cicones*, to Ismaros. There, I sacked* the town and put the men to the sword. And we took the wives* and much loot out of the town to divide among us, and I did my best to see that every man received his proper share.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Notes:&#xD;&#xA;The “Cicones” are a people of that region listed in Homer’s [Iliad Book 2][2] as sending warriors to reinforce the Trojans. They are not mentioned again in the Iliad so presumably their part in the War was minor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“Sacked” - Ancient Greek ‘[pertho][3]’;  to devastate, ruin, sack; used in relation to a conquered town in those days it would generally be taken to include plundering, slaughtering inhabitants, and enslaving many survivors. For the losing side, it could be total catastrophe.  [Note: Odysseus also uses &quot;[olesa][4]&quot;, which means to destroy.]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“Wives” Greek ‘[alochous][5]’, from words for lying down together; it may mean ‘wives’, but can mean or include concubines &amp; mistresses. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odysseus adds that he thought it best to leave quickly but his men insisted on staying to feast on captured wine, cattle and sheep on the beach. They were still there the next day when more Cicones arrived from inland, summoned by fugitives from Odysseus’ raid who ran to them and ‘made a great cry’. These new Cicones were “better men, more numerous and more skilled in war”. They gave battle. The Greeks put up a long fight but lost over 70 men and had to flee to their ships. After commemorating their dead, they sailed away unpursued.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This raid is referred to 3 further times in the Odyssey. In Book 9, at lines [164-168][6] Odysseus and his men enjoy wine captured  in the raid. At [197-210][7] he says that in the raid out of respect for the god, he protected Maron, a priest of Apollo living near the town, and Maron’s family, from harm. In return, Maron gave Odysseus fine gifts of gold, silver and strong wine. The wine is useful in the story of the Cyclops. In [Book 23 lines 310-311][8] when Odysseus is finally home he tells his wife Penelope of his many adventures, including laying waste the Cicones, so he presumably does not expect her to disapprove of his raid.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any thoughts on this, on any point(s) below or anything else that occurs to you? (“That’s just how it was in those days” may be a valid answer to some questions, but please don’t assume it without some evidence or reasoning!)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Why does Homer include this incident? Does it add anything to the story? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. How did Odysseus conquer Ismaros and its men so easily? He does not mention losing a single man doing so, but he does tell us when he loses men in the battle the next day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. Did Odysseus sack Ismaros because of the Trojan War, or was it normal and OK to do this to any foreign town, given the opportunity? The Greeks sacked other Trojan allies’ towns in the War, gaining plunder and slaves. However, there was then a military need to eliminate enemy allies and capture supplies. There seems no need to attack Ismaros. The Trojan War is already won, Troy destroyed and Odysseus and his men already have plunder from Troy and are supposedly tired of war and eager for home.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. a) The one reference to the women of Ismaros in the passage above: “We took the wives and much loot out of the town to divide among us” is their only mention in the Odyssey.  Do we assume hundreds (?) of these unfortunate Ciconian “wives” (actually now widows) are present as slaves, presumably servants and concubines, on Odysseus’ ships in the later adventures until the ships are lost, but are not considered worth mentioning?  If not, what happened to them?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;b) Ditto that in the Sack of Troy, the Greeks/ Achaeans are supposed to have enslaved Trojan women in large numbers as booty of war, yet there is no mention anywhere in the Odyssey of such women being on Odysseus’ ships?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;c) If captured Trojan or Ciconian slaves and women are on board, presumably they die along with the crews when the ships are lost, but again their fate is not important enough to mention?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;5. Thoughts about the position of Maron and his wife, giving gifts to Odysseus even as he and his warriors kill or carry off into slavery all their neighbours?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D1&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D2%3Acard%3D819&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29%2Fpraqon&amp;la=greek&amp;can=e%29%2Fpraqon0&amp;prior=po/lin&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0135:book=9:card=1&amp;i=1&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=w%29%2Flesa&amp;la=greek&amp;can=w%29%2Flesa0&amp;prior=e)/praqon&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0135:book=9:card=1&amp;i=1&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29lo%2Fxous&amp;la=greek&amp;can=a%29lo%2Fxous0&amp;prior=d%27&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0135:book=9:card=1&amp;i=1&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D161&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D193&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D23%3Acard%3D310" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13902" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2468" RevisionGUID="2edafb82-b74e-4a49-8702-bdc319b5d7f2" CreationDate="2018-03-08T13:37:17.667" UserId="3530" Comment="deleted 56 characters in body; edited title" Text="Odysseus raid on the Cicones at Ismaros (Odyssey Book 9 lines 40-66)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13904" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3500" RevisionGUID="c40cbc08-e1da-433a-907b-1ed1bdf8518e" CreationDate="2018-03-08T16:46:45.707" UserId="4842" Text="In the Irish legend, did Aoife ultimately win or lose the duel with Cu Chulainn? How did they end up as lovers from being rivals?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13905" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3500" RevisionGUID="c40cbc08-e1da-433a-907b-1ed1bdf8518e" CreationDate="2018-03-08T16:46:45.707" UserId="4842" Text="Aoife and Cu Chulainn" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13906" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3500" RevisionGUID="c40cbc08-e1da-433a-907b-1ed1bdf8518e" CreationDate="2018-03-08T16:46:45.707" UserId="4842" Text="|irish|interpretation|ulster-cycle|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13907" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3494" RevisionGUID="366594ae-fb6f-4ea9-8823-8eb3bd610ea2" CreationDate="2018-03-09T00:07:22.687" UserId="4271" Comment="added 18 characters in body" Text="I'm a little confused. In the Golden Age, it is said that humans and deities lived harmoniously, also living long lives. In the Silver Age, Zeus said that humans will live 100 years as children. But, because that did not pay tribute to the gods, Zeus killed them. The Bronze Age ends with the flood into the Heroic Age.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is what I'm confused about. If Prometheus created humans out of mud/clay/earth in the Bronze Age, how could humans have lived in the Gold and Silver Ages?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13908" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3501" RevisionGUID="c003fe91-56c0-41c9-92be-53a89ec4244a" CreationDate="2018-03-09T01:12:18.830" UserId="4271" Text="Where does the idea that dragons horde gold come from?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I can't think of many Myths of dragons hording gold. The closest I come up with is the unsleeping dragon that guarded the Golden Fleece. And even that's a stretch." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13909" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3501" RevisionGUID="c003fe91-56c0-41c9-92be-53a89ec4244a" CreationDate="2018-03-09T01:12:18.830" UserId="4271" Text="Dragons on hording" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13910" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3501" RevisionGUID="c003fe91-56c0-41c9-92be-53a89ec4244a" CreationDate="2018-03-09T01:12:18.830" UserId="4271" Text="|origins|dragons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13912" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3501" RevisionGUID="f304a06f-546a-4afe-8738-c1ef72711e6f" CreationDate="2018-03-09T08:40:31.717" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 10 characters in body; edited title" Text="Where does the idea that dragons hoard gold come from?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I can't think of many myths of dragons hoarding gold. The closest I come up with is the dragon that guarded the Golden Fleece. And even that's a stretch." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13913" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3501" RevisionGUID="f304a06f-546a-4afe-8738-c1ef72711e6f" CreationDate="2018-03-09T08:40:31.717" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 10 characters in body; edited title" Text="Where does the idea that dragons hoard gold come from?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13914" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="3494" RevisionGUID="74b0800d-7aa6-4210-bb3c-92da74727bdc" CreationDate="2018-03-09T08:48:34.990" UserId="57" Comment="103" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;yannis&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="13915" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3478" RevisionGUID="52107a0a-c4fa-4e8e-91e9-c789bdb9a393" CreationDate="2018-03-09T08:59:54.550" UserId="57" Comment="added 186 characters in body" Text="I am not sure where you got the idea that the truce in Book VII was a &quot;sacred truce&quot;, but I'm afraid that is not the case. The concept of the sacred truce is very specific, it's a device designed to protect people from visiting the games. The truce in the Iliad is sacred only in the manner that a god, Zeus, is involved. In all other respects, it's a good old regular truce between warring factions.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Furthermore, the concept of the sacred truce was introduced in 765 BC, the year of the first Olympiad. That's four centuries after the events described in the Iliad, according to the [traditional dating][1]. Even if a sacred truce did appear in the Iliad, it would have been an anachronism, a much later addition to the story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_War#Dates_of_the_Trojan_War&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Olympic_Games#History" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13916" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3503" RevisionGUID="2ba2b8ec-6e05-4914-bdb5-317c6fd53870" CreationDate="2018-03-09T09:27:23.273" UserId="57" Text="The Colchian dragon isn't the only dragon protecting treasure in Greek mythology. A couple more examples: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Ladon][1] guarded the golden apples in the garden of the Hesperides,&#xD;&#xA;- [Python][2] guarded the [centre of the earth][3] at Delphi, and&#xD;&#xA;- Ares assigned a [dragon][4] to protect his sacred spring near Thebes (look up the myths of [Cadmus][5]). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, if you are looking for a dragon protecting gold specifically, then I think the more characteristic examples from European folklore are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Fafnir][6], the dwarf-turned-dragon in the [Völsunga][7], and&#xD;&#xA;- The [firedrake][8] in [Beowulf][9].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact, unless I'm horribly mistaken, the latter one is the inspiration behind [Smaug][10], the gold-hoarding dragon in J. R. R. Tolkien's *The Hobbit*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladon_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Python_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_mundi&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.theoi.com/Ther/DrakonIsmenios.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadmus&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fafnir&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lsunga_saga&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_dragon_(Beowulf)&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smaug%5C" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13917" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3478" RevisionGUID="00c1d67c-e237-42e4-aa93-0ae1864dd9ad" CreationDate="2018-03-09T09:33:25.020" UserId="57" Comment="added 6 characters in body" Text="I am not sure where you got the idea that the truce in Book VII was a &quot;sacred truce&quot;, but I'm afraid that is not the case. The concept of the sacred truce is very specific, it's a device designed to protect people from visiting the games. The truce in the Iliad is sacred only in the manner that the gods are directly involved. In all other respects, it's a good old regular truce between warring factions.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Furthermore, the concept of the sacred truce was introduced in 765 BC, the year of the first Olympiad. That's four centuries after the events described in the Iliad, according to the [traditional dating][1]. Even if a sacred truce did appear in the Iliad, it would have been an anachronism, a much later addition to the story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_War#Dates_of_the_Trojan_War&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Olympic_Games#History" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13918" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3503" RevisionGUID="8777574e-4d3d-4ca2-9f84-3ea2ecc1bed9" CreationDate="2018-03-09T09:49:50.107" UserId="57" Comment="added 7 characters in body" Text="The Colchian dragon isn't the only dragon protecting treasure in Greek mythology. A couple more examples: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Ladon][1] guarded the golden apples in the garden of the Hesperides,&#xD;&#xA;- [Python][2] guarded the [centre of the earth][3] at Delphi, and&#xD;&#xA;- Ares assigned a [dragon][4] to protect his sacred spring near Thebes (look up the myths of [Cadmus][5]). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, if you are looking for a dragon protecting gold specifically, then I think the more characteristic examples from European folklore are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Fafnir][6], the dwarf-turned-dragon in the [Völsunga][7], and&#xD;&#xA;- The [firedrake][8] in [Beowulf][9].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact, unless I'm horribly mistaken, the latter one is the inspiration behind [Smaug][10], the iconic gold-hoarding dragon in J. R. R. Tolkien's *The Hobbit*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladon_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Python_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_mundi&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.theoi.com/Ther/DrakonIsmenios.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadmus&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fafnir&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lsunga_saga&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_dragon_(Beowulf)&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smaug%5C" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13919" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3504" RevisionGUID="b6e75ccf-438b-4eda-8566-8760c88015ba" CreationDate="2018-03-09T11:00:30.740" UserId="2774" Text="The first description of the manticore with have is from Ctesias, let's read [him][1] (Translation from John Freese freely available): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The martikhora is an animal found in this country. It has a face like&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a man's, a skin red as cinnabar, and is as large as a lion. It has&#xD;&#xA;&gt; three rows of teeth, ears and light-blue eyes like those of a man; its&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tail is like that of a land scorpion, containing a sting more than a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cubit long at the end. It has other stings on each side of its tail&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and one on the top of its head, like the scorpion, with which it&#xD;&#xA;&gt; inflicts a wound that is always fatal. If it is attacked from a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; distance, it sets up its tail in front and discharges its stings as if&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from a bow; if attacked from behind, it straightens it out and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; launches its stings in a direct line to the distance of a hundred&#xD;&#xA;&gt; feet. The wound inflicted is fatal to all animals except the elephant.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The stings are about a foot long and about as thick as a small rush.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The martikhora is called in Greek anthropophagos (man-eater),&#xD;&#xA;&gt; because, although it preys upon other animals, it kills and devours a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; greater number of human beings. It fights with both its claws and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stings, which, according to Ctesias, grow again after they have been&#xD;&#xA;&gt; discharged. There is a great number of these animals in India, which&#xD;&#xA;&gt; are hunted and killed with spears or arrows by natives mounted on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; elephant&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the first description we have clearly state that they have a human head.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The text I gave as a reference is not from Ctesias but Photius. There is no book by Ctesias left, we only have citations by other authors. Photius gave a fairly solid summary of Ctesias.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A little bit of history&#xD;&#xA;-----------------------&#xD;&#xA;It is still very important to have a little view of history. Ctesias was a Greek who worked at the court of the Achaemenid emperor Artaxerxes II. The Achaemenid, you can know them as &quot;Persians&quot;, built the first great empire and got a specific pattern: they didn't wrote, or barely. So what we know of them is mostly either by the Greeks (Herodotus, Ctesias, Arran, etc) or civilisations they conquered (Mesopotamia or Egypt) or failed to conquered (Greeks). Unsurprisingly they are rarely depicted with kindness...&lt;BR&gt; &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And now on Ctesias, he mentioned he saw a lots of things:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The sun is 10 times larger than in Greece&#xD;&#xA; - Parrots as large as hawks with human tongue&#xD;&#xA; - Rivers of honey&#xD;&#xA; - etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In &quot;HISTOIRE DE L'EMPIRE PERSE. De Cyrus à Alexandre&quot; [Pierre Briant][2] wrote (probably the actual reference on the Achaemenid empire) :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; On est vite déçu par la lecture [de Ctésias]. L'auteur qui a vécu une&#xD;&#xA;&gt; quinzaine d'année à la cours d'Artaxerxes, n'en a transmis qu'une&#xD;&#xA;&gt; version biaisée, dominée par les tortueuses machinations de princesses&#xD;&#xA;&gt; perverses et les troubles complots des eunuques.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Translation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One is quickly disappointed by the reading. The author, who lived some&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fifteen years at the court of Artaxerxes, transmitted nothing but a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; biaised view, dominated by the tortuous machinations of perverse&#xD;&#xA;&gt; princesses and the dark conspiracies of the eunuchs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is [English translation][3] of that book.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am mentioning history for one reason: understanding your source. Unfortunately the Achaemenids were no writers, we have to rely on other sources, like Ctesias, which is not reliable at all. Neither historically or mythologically.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;I am not aware of any Achaemenid illustration of a manticore, neither of any story. On that regard, we barely have an idea of their religion.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice Wikipedia will provide you with other Greek sources but miserably fail to mention that the so called 'Persian' monster is propably not from Persian origin at all (Expect the Middle Persian words signifying man-eater). There is such scorpion creatures in mesopotamia, with [a human head][4].&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You made a bunch of fairly excellent questions. I have very few time to answer any of them. Sorry for that.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/photius_03bibliotheca.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.amazon.fr/HISTOIRE-LEMPIRE-PERSE-Cyrus-Alexandre/dp/2213596670&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.amazon.fr/Cyrus-Alexander-History-Persian-2006-07-29/dp/B01JXN6N96/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorpion_man" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13920" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3503" RevisionGUID="2cb04bac-86d6-4b9a-a6ff-b75346ca0f09" CreationDate="2018-03-09T12:08:49.113" UserId="57" Comment="added 23 characters in body" Text="The Colchian dragon isn't the only dragon protecting treasure in Greek mythology. A couple more examples: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Ladon][1] guarded the golden apples in the garden of the Hesperides,&#xD;&#xA;- [Python][2] guarded the [centre of the earth][3] at Delphi, and&#xD;&#xA;- Ares assigned a [dragon][4] to protect his sacred spring near Thebes (look up the myths of [Cadmus][5]). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, if you are looking for a dragon protecting gold specifically, then I think the more characteristic examples from European folklore are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Fafnir][6], the dwarf-turned-dragon in the [Völsunga][7], and&#xD;&#xA;- The [firedrake][8] in [Beowulf][9].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact, unless I'm horribly mistaken, the latter one is often credited as the main inspiration behind [Smaug][10], the iconic gold-hoarding dragon in J. R. R. Tolkien's *The Hobbit*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladon_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Python_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_mundi&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.theoi.com/Ther/DrakonIsmenios.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadmus&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fafnir&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lsunga_saga&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_dragon_(Beowulf)&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smaug%5C" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13922" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3501" RevisionGUID="9063f8ff-fd66-44bd-9fd8-6f00bc858585" CreationDate="2018-03-09T13:56:25.030" UserId="4271" Comment="added 31 characters in body" Text="Where does the idea that dragons hoard gold come from?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I can't think of many myths of dragons hoarding gold. The closest I come up with is the dragon that guarded the Golden Fleece. And even that's a stretch as it wasn't gold specifically." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13923" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3506" RevisionGUID="b0afd87f-2464-4702-b4cb-1fbce4af95b9" CreationDate="2018-03-09T17:33:55.550" UserId="4847" Text="So what I'm trying to understand is what exactly pre-Tolkien orcs were like in regards to folklore. I understand that Tolkien has had a massive influence on how we conceptualize many creatures from different myths such as dragons, wargs, and dwarves, but in all these cases they existed in a defined form before Tolkien used them in his stories. Orcs seem to be a bit different because I haven't found one or a few myths where they exist as their own thing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Were orcs even a single creature pre-Tolkien or did he pull from multiple sources to create his own amalgamation? Are there any myths where I can find them?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13924" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3506" RevisionGUID="b0afd87f-2464-4702-b4cb-1fbce4af95b9" CreationDate="2018-03-09T17:33:55.550" UserId="4847" Text="Pre-Tolkien Orcs" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13925" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3506" RevisionGUID="b0afd87f-2464-4702-b4cb-1fbce4af95b9" CreationDate="2018-03-09T17:33:55.550" UserId="4847" Text="|myth-identification|mythical-creatures|folklore|european-folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13927" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3508" RevisionGUID="8747e735-84e5-4722-9612-9b8028126986" CreationDate="2018-03-09T18:03:09.333" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13928" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3508" RevisionGUID="8747e735-84e5-4722-9612-9b8028126986" CreationDate="2018-03-09T18:03:09.333" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13929" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3509" RevisionGUID="a1fab14e-1f33-476b-86a0-d17688841a53" CreationDate="2018-03-09T18:03:09.333" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13930" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3509" RevisionGUID="a1fab14e-1f33-476b-86a0-d17688841a53" CreationDate="2018-03-09T18:03:09.333" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13935" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3509" RevisionGUID="7c748609-0a7b-41a4-a720-c69763a8a3a0" CreationDate="2018-03-09T18:26:44.200" UserId="4271" Comment="added 110 characters in body" Text="For questions about Mythology in general. Something you want to know, but not specifically about one Mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13936" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3509" RevisionGUID="7c748609-0a7b-41a4-a720-c69763a8a3a0" CreationDate="2018-03-09T18:26:44.200" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 2774, 967 edit id of 567" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13946" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="3377" RevisionGUID="6522b06b-9e01-4b18-be7d-0eacbb82cb55" CreationDate="2018-03-10T16:54:10.990" UserId="183" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:183,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;HDE 226868&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="13947" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3511" RevisionGUID="77334e41-7261-44a2-b930-5826f31eb311" CreationDate="2018-03-10T21:43:28.233" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="What is the oldest story known to have been told by people living a Palaeolithic or Mesolithic way of life, in other words who have not used metals such as copper, bronze or iron and who do not engage in herding or farming? This would include for example aborigine people in Australia living the way they lived before the invasion and conquest." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13948" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3511" RevisionGUID="77334e41-7261-44a2-b930-5826f31eb311" CreationDate="2018-03-10T21:43:28.233" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="What is the oldest story from the Paleolithic or Mesolithic, if any are known?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13949" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3511" RevisionGUID="77334e41-7261-44a2-b930-5826f31eb311" CreationDate="2018-03-10T21:43:28.233" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13950" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3512" RevisionGUID="09ebc359-d170-478e-8ce1-d67b79f6eafe" CreationDate="2018-03-10T21:51:05.253" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="What is the meaning of this apparently runic symbol carved on the grave of Walther Darré, the former Nazi agriculture minister and high-ranking SS officer? Darré was found guilty on some of the charges made against him at Nuremburg, was released from jail in 1950, and died in 1953.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/FPFSv.gif" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13951" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3512" RevisionGUID="09ebc359-d170-478e-8ce1-d67b79f6eafe" CreationDate="2018-03-10T21:51:05.253" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="What is the meaning of the apparently runic symbol carved on (former Nazi agriculture minister and SS officer) Walther Darré's grave?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13952" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3512" RevisionGUID="09ebc359-d170-478e-8ce1-d67b79f6eafe" CreationDate="2018-03-10T21:51:05.253" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="|runes|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13954" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3511" RevisionGUID="253b7e5b-0ea6-4271-86a4-468b9e1d1a48" CreationDate="2018-03-10T21:54:52.307" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="edited title" Text="What is the oldest known story from the Paleolithic or Mesolithic, if any are known?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13955" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3513" RevisionGUID="5672a6fb-6cee-4daf-bd66-5defe418a496" CreationDate="2018-03-10T22:07:26.613" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="There is a legend that since bowmen captured by French forces sometimes had their bow-drawing fingers cut off, the English and Welsh longbowmen at the Battle of Agincourt, which an English army won in 1415, employed the now insulting &quot;V&quot; sign to taunt the French, to show that they had the necessary fingers and they were in full working order.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unlike the peace sign which has the palm outwards, towards the message receiver, the insulting sign has the palm inwards, towards the message sender. Used in Britain, Ireland, Australia and New Zealand, the sign is in some circumstances analogous to the middle-finger gesture that is more common in the United States.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the earliest known date for the legend?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13956" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3513" RevisionGUID="5672a6fb-6cee-4daf-bd66-5defe418a496" CreationDate="2018-03-10T22:07:26.613" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="How old is the legend that the insulting &quot;V&quot; sign was first used at or with reference to the Battle of Agincourt?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13957" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3513" RevisionGUID="5672a6fb-6cee-4daf-bd66-5defe418a496" CreationDate="2018-03-10T22:07:26.613" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13958" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3514" RevisionGUID="e3243103-58fa-4bd6-bdf7-67162f02e614" CreationDate="2018-03-11T15:46:56.270" UserId="4852" Text="It looks like a compound rune (is there such a thing?).  Two symbols used by the SS.  But also a few more.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the chart, looks like **D. Ger-Rune** with **F. Wolfsangel (variant)** crossing over the middle line of the former rune, making the **X** mark.  Then you would get  the rune in the picture you shown.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[image source][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Seems logical as Walther Darré is a high ranking SS officer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In addition, there is also a solar symbol in their as well, the circle with a cross (Sun Cross)... with the circle being a snake biting it's own tail (Ouroboros).  Perhaps a nod to Jörmungandr, the giant serpent in Norse mythology.  All enclosed in a Shield.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Seems like a symbol they would give a high ranking Nazi officer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/gmiFk.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/416653403006021633/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13959" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3514" RevisionGUID="62c03d28-371d-475f-bd21-a92433213b69" CreationDate="2018-03-11T15:55:23.633" UserId="4852" Comment="spelliing" Text="It looks like a compound rune.  Two symbols used by the SS.  But also a few more.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the chart, looks like **D. Ger-Rune** with **F. Wolfsangel (variant)** crossing over the middle line of the former rune, making the **X** mark.  Then you would get  the rune in the picture you shown.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[image source][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Walther Darré is a high ranking SS officer, so it would make sense with the **Wolfsangel** rune in there.  **Ger** would also make sense, as an interpretation of it means &quot;successful harvest,&quot; which would be a nod to his position as agricultural minister.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In addition, there is also a solar symbol in their as well, the circle with a cross (Sun Cross)... with the circle being a snake biting it's own tail (Ouroboros).  Perhaps a nod to Jörmungandr, the giant serpent in Norse mythology.  All enclosed in a Shield.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Seems like a symbol customized for Walther Darré, signifying his importance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/gmiFk.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/416653403006021633/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13960" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3515" RevisionGUID="976c1a8d-1070-4489-9101-05837ce1964f" CreationDate="2018-03-11T16:26:52.907" UserId="4853" Text="They grouped together in earlier times-they came from Greece mytology,or reversely,because -Perun is Zeus,and Mokosh is Athena.The Slavic world is connected with Greece pantheon.Also,the origins of both are unclearly,but begans from India.Vladimir  picked this pantheon because the Scythians,Thracians and Illyrians were neighbours of Proto-Slavs,and it was the specifically world posted in east Europe.The statues were made of wood,like in Iliad, and they are the remains of bronze age.It remainds me to Ukrainian's meandar ,12 000 year old,then Vinča culture and Vučedol culture.Vladimir wants to be independent and strong,without interference of church.          Sources:1.-Vedran Sinožić,Naša Troja,(OurTroy),Naklada Uliks,2016,Rijeka,Croatia. 2.-Vedran Sinožić,Kalisto,(IP),Croatia." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13961" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3506" RevisionGUID="eb2ed7b0-95e0-445a-97d3-663472a24533" CreationDate="2018-03-12T01:13:02.203" UserDisplayName="user1637" Comment="Edited to make clear it is about mythology or folklore" Text="Pre-Tolkien Orcs in myths or folklore?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13962" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3506" RevisionGUID="eb2ed7b0-95e0-445a-97d3-663472a24533" CreationDate="2018-03-12T01:13:02.203" Comment="Proposed by 1637 approved by 2774, 1241 edit id of 568" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13963" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3516" RevisionGUID="b0903818-2ae6-4bba-be0e-2d9e8f7344ee" CreationDate="2018-03-12T02:28:46.847" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="The earliest occurrence I have found of the association between Moon and cheese is in [Aesop](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesop)'s [fable](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesop%27s_Fables) &quot;The Fox, The Moon, and the River&quot;. This is [number 264 in the edition of Laura Gibbs's translations](http://mythfolklore.net/aesopica/oxford/264.htm) (Laura Gibbs, Aesop's Fables: a New Translation Laura Gibbs [Oxford: OUP, 2002]) and has Perry number 669. Aesop lived in the 7th and 6th centuries BCE.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A fox was out walking one night next to a river. She saw the light of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the moon reflected in the water and mistook it for a piece of cheese.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The fox started to lap at the water, thinking that if she could drink&#xD;&#xA;&gt; up all the water, she would find the cheese in the dry riverbed. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fox lapped and lapped at the water until finally she choked and died.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; So every greedy man goes chasing after profit with such an intensity&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that he destroys himself without achieving anything." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13964" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3517" RevisionGUID="95b03bde-30d6-4cb8-bbaf-663b90a993b2" CreationDate="2018-03-12T03:17:11.080" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="An &quot;okay&quot; hand signal is formed by making a circle with index finger and thumb while splaying the other fingers out, roughly upwards. What are its origins?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/lCbvY.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13965" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3517" RevisionGUID="95b03bde-30d6-4cb8-bbaf-663b90a993b2" CreationDate="2018-03-12T03:17:11.080" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="What are the origins of the &quot;okay&quot; hand signal?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13966" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3517" RevisionGUID="95b03bde-30d6-4cb8-bbaf-663b90a993b2" CreationDate="2018-03-12T03:17:11.080" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13968" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3518" RevisionGUID="6bc072ae-5429-4b5f-a2d1-a5aa3cba42ad" CreationDate="2018-03-12T05:08:09.837" UserId="4856" Text="I think you must start with a Catalog of ships from Iliad,take the number of sailors from Odysseus's group,and start with adventure against Cicones in a Troy land.Also,don't forget the story about Lestrigons,there is a heavy loss  for Odysseus." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13969" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3519" RevisionGUID="1544f6ea-7156-4613-a30f-ebb51935c42a" CreationDate="2018-03-12T05:27:37.263" UserId="4857" Text="Metalworkers were Dactiles from the mountain Ida which excavate the iron from Berekint mountain and bring it into Troy.Also they were called Phrygyans or Kurets.Source:Robert Graves,The Greek myths." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13973" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2072" RevisionGUID="bbe5cfc0-acfa-486a-9fc1-47b2d1c4dd0d" CreationDate="2018-03-12T17:55:54.040" UserId="4105" Comment="fixed grammar, removed unqualifed term &quot;myth system&quot;" Text="A deluge myth is a story of a big flood that kills everyone. A few examples: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Noah's Ark&#xD;&#xA;- The story of Deucalion&#xD;&#xA;- The flood in the epic of Gilgamesh&#xD;&#xA;- The story of Bergelmir&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;... and so on. Is there a mythology without a deluge myth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13974" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2072" RevisionGUID="bbe5cfc0-acfa-486a-9fc1-47b2d1c4dd0d" CreationDate="2018-03-12T17:55:54.040" UserId="4105" Comment="fixed grammar, removed unqualifed term &quot;myth system&quot;" Text="Does every culture have a deluge myth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13975" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2072" RevisionGUID="bbe5cfc0-acfa-486a-9fc1-47b2d1c4dd0d" CreationDate="2018-03-12T17:55:54.040" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 111, 967 edit id of 572" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13976" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3519" RevisionGUID="58f5c097-90ec-4789-8bbb-bda95c3d8dfe" CreationDate="2018-03-12T17:56:09.320" UserId="4105" Comment="corrected spelling" Text="Metalworkers were Dactyls from mountain Ida which excavate the iron from Berekint mountain and bring it into Troy. Also they were called Phrygiansor Curetes. Source: Robert Graves, The Greek myths." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13977" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3519" RevisionGUID="58f5c097-90ec-4789-8bbb-bda95c3d8dfe" CreationDate="2018-03-12T17:56:09.320" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 2774, 967 edit id of 569" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13978" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3515" RevisionGUID="a96fce80-a745-4dfd-b5d5-71545031d3cd" CreationDate="2018-03-12T17:56:17.247" UserId="4105" Comment="tried to fix spelling &amp; grammar, removed a couple of sentences that made zero sense" Text="They were grouped together in earlier times - they came from Greece mythology - Perun is Zeus, and Mokosh is Athena. The Slavic world is connected with Greece. Also, the origins of both are unclear but begin from India.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Vladimir picked this pantheon because the Scythians, Thracians and Illyrians were neighbours of Proto-Slavs. The statues were made of wood, like in the Iliad, and they are remains of the bronze age. It reminds me of the Ukrainian meander, 12.000-year-old, and the Vinča culture and Vučedol culture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Vladimir wanted to be independent and strong, without interference from the church. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Vedran Sinožić, Naša Troja, (Our Troy), Naklada Uliks, 2016, Rijeka,&#xD;&#xA;    Croatia. &#xD;&#xA; 2. Vedran Sinožić, Kalisto, (IP), Croatia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13979" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3515" RevisionGUID="a96fce80-a745-4dfd-b5d5-71545031d3cd" CreationDate="2018-03-12T17:56:17.247" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 111, 967 edit id of 571" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13981" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3182" RevisionGUID="585a00bf-b74e-4ac3-a7f9-86ed4ea1b894" CreationDate="2018-03-12T20:56:11.073" UserId="2892" Comment="added 100 characters in body" Text="Perhaps the best example is the [Golden Fleece](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Fleece), a treasure in every sense of the word. It was created when [Phrixus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrixus) sacrificed a winged ram his mother [Nephele](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephele) sent to carry him to safety. The lamb was fathered by [Poseidon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poseidon) when he turned [Theophane](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophane) into an ewe, so divine influences played a role in sourcing the material. But credit for the actual creation surely belongs to Phrixus, even if it was just skinning a ram.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another example, though not really much of a treasure, is the sevenfold Shield of Ajax. It was said to be crafted by [Tychius of Hyle][1], who was famed as the best leatherworker of the time. According to the *Iliad* 7.206:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ajax came up bearing his shield in front of him like a wall - a shield of bronze with seven folds of oxhide - the work of Tychius, who lived in Hyle and was by far the best worker in leather.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source: [Iliad, Book 7][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lastly, another possible example is the ship [Argo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argo), used by [Jason](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason) and [Argonauts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argonauts). It was built by [Argus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argus_(son_of_Arestor)), after whom the ship was named. However Athena is often said to have played a role in its creation, so this is only a marginal case.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.mythindex.com/greek-mythology/T/Tychius.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.literaturepage.com/read.php?titleid=theiliad&amp;abspage=98&amp;bookmark=1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13982" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3184" RevisionGUID="b11a7bfe-efc2-4313-a56e-8b45e95917e6" CreationDate="2018-03-12T20:57:05.537" UserId="2892" Comment="added 62 characters in body" Text="I know of no metal-smiths that have been mentioned in Greek myth - that aren't gods anyway - but there are craftspeople who have been remembered.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Semaphore mentioned Phrixus, Tychius and Argus. I'd throw in [Arachne][1] as well, whose weaving was so excellent, she competed against Athene and no winner was declared. Arachne was turned into the first spider as punishment.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arachne" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13983" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3519" RevisionGUID="f732fcb4-713e-4c72-a341-1ada67fa6598" CreationDate="2018-03-12T20:59:44.730" UserId="2892" Comment="added 66 characters in body" Text="Metalworkers were [Dactyls][1] from mountain Ida which excavate the iron from Berekint mountain and bring it into Troy. Also they were called Phrygiansor Curetes. Source: Robert Graves, The Greek myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dactyl_(mythology)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13984" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3518" RevisionGUID="ecbe8783-2b94-44b3-9441-5869a2910186" CreationDate="2018-03-12T21:15:27.603" UserId="2892" Comment="added links. Still don't think it's a good answer, because it seems to indicate Homer is sufficient, but wanted to make it more useful nonetheless" Text="I think you must start with the [Catalog of Ships][1] from the Iliad, take the number of sailors from Odysseus's group, and start with adventure against [Cicones][2]. Also, don't forget the story about [Lestrigones][3]--there is a heavy loss  for Odysseus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See: &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[Iliad Book II][4] &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[Odyssey Book IX][5] &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[Odyssey Book X][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalogue_of_Ships&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cicones&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lestrigones&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D2%3Acard%3D1&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D1&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D10%3Acard%3D178" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13985" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3521" RevisionGUID="e46a6d1c-904d-4f4b-a5ca-0c43c270fbeb" CreationDate="2018-03-12T21:32:27.000" UserId="2892" Text="This hand sign definitely has traditional usage as [mudras][1] in the practice of Yoga, known popularly as either the *chin mudra* (&quot;the seal of consciousness&quot;) or the *[jnana][2] mudra* (&quot;the seal of wisdom&quot;), depending on the orientation of the hand. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*This fact, however, does not imply Hindu origins of the hand sign for the meaning &quot;A-OK&quot;...  Don't have info at present to say one way or the other.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mudra&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jnana" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13987" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3522" RevisionGUID="21307b5e-798c-4002-ad92-d49a4503b89e" CreationDate="2018-03-12T21:49:29.480" UserId="2892" Text="Blake came before Tolkien, and Tolkien definitely knew the work of Blake.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Blake's mythology, [Orc][1] is a fallen entity who embodies rebellion, and opposes the forces of order and tradition, represented by Urizen. &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;See: [America, A Prophecy][2] &lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm going to have to revisit [Orcus][3] from Roman Mythology, and will append this answer when I do, but I'd be surprised if there wasn't a connection. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(Blake)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.bartleby.com/235/257.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orcus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13988" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3522" RevisionGUID="02f71211-0ab6-4763-80fd-3eed9dff037a" CreationDate="2018-03-12T21:57:42.063" UserId="2892" Comment="added 119 characters in body" Text="Blake came before Tolkien, and Tolkien definitely knew the work of Blake.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Blake's mythology, [Orc][1] is a fallen entity who embodies rebellion, and opposes the forces of order and tradition, represented by Urizen. &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;See: [America, A Prophecy][2] &lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm going to have to revisit [Orcus][3] from Roman Mythology, and will append this answer when I do, but I'd be surprised if there wasn't a connection because Tolkien was a very fine scholar and linguist, and almost certainly knew the classical material inside and out, and nothing in Tolkien is random.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Transmogrifying these precedents into a race of chthonic nemeses to the Dwarves and Elves certainly seems to be an innovation of Tolkien's, and rings sufficiently true (poetic truth) to have influenced a major swathe of modern fantasy, where Tolkien's conception becomes formalized through Dungeons &amp; Dragons and many subsequent fantasy writers.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(Blake)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.bartleby.com/235/257.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orcus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13989" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3522" RevisionGUID="8a6691ce-bb01-4e0c-ac72-7eb2ca52961a" CreationDate="2018-03-12T22:02:58.603" UserId="2892" Comment="added 119 characters in body" Text="Blake came before Tolkien, and Tolkien definitely knew the work of Blake.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Blake's mythology, [Orc][1] is a fallen entity who embodies rebellion, and opposes the forces of order and tradition, represented by Urizen. &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;See: [America, A Prophecy][2] &lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm going to have to revisit [Orcus][3] from Roman Mythology, and will append this answer when I do, but I'd be surprised if there wasn't a connection--Tolkien was a very fine scholar and linguist, and almost certainly knew the classical material inside and out.  Nothing in Tolkien seems to be random.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Transmogrifying these precedents into a race of chthonic nemeses to the Dwarves and Elves certainly seems to be an innovation of Tolkien's, and rings sufficiently true (poetic truth) to have influenced a major swathe of modern fantasy, where Tolkien's conception becomes formalized through Dungeons &amp; Dragons and many subsequent fantasy writers.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(Blake)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.bartleby.com/235/257.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orcus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13990" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3412" RevisionGUID="7af3b334-9299-42da-9be0-0f9b46804cb6" CreationDate="2018-03-12T22:14:03.207" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|folklore|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13994" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3523" RevisionGUID="f2b405bf-a31d-4144-adb6-d5b91da9fec9" CreationDate="2018-03-13T09:33:00.253" UserId="2682" Text="BRIEF&#xD;&#xA;=====&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Euripides, the dowry of Klytaimnestra [Clytaemnestra/ Clytemnestra]&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; is a male slave and some other undisclosed items (and/or persons?). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We do not have any such detail(s) about what Helen's dowry is, unless we guess that the entire kingdom of Lakedaimon *is* this dowry. I'm not convinced that such is necessarily the case. (More on that below.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From his father Atreus, Agamemnon inherits the kingdom of Argolis, which is already wealthy and powerful at the time of his accession to the throne thereof. He goes on to augment its power through his own agency. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no obvious connection between his marriage and his status, except insofar as it appears to be strategically beneficial in terms of political alliance. On top of that, things are yet easier for him in this regard because his brother Menelaus, with whom he is on good terms, has already married into the same family by the time that Agamemnon weds Klytaimnestra.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apart from gaining a high-class wife, as well as further consolidation of power between Argolis and Lakedaimon, somehow (it seems counter-intuitive, at least from a regional diplomacy point-of-view, to start it off as violently as the version in which Klytaimnestra is first widowed in order to be [re]married), I don't see that Agamemnon has anything to gain by marrying Klytaimnestra. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Based on all this, his status does *not* seem to depend on his wife, royal or otherwise. Granted, of course, that upon feeling slighted enough by him, this wife does organise for him to be slaughtered when he returns home from Troy, so in that sense, well... his status depends on her a frightfully good deal.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Klytaimnestra's Dowry**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the beginning of the 400s BC Euripides wrote a play entitled *Iphigeneia at Aulis*. A fairly major character thereof is a quirky unnamed individual known simply as the &quot;Old Man.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the play's introduction scene, a discussion comes up between this character and the Argive king Agamemnon, in which we find out that the Old Man is a slave belonging to the royal household of Argolis. Via a bit of expository dialogue in Lines 42-45—addressed here to Agamemnon but really directed at the audience—the slave reveals to us that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Your old father-in-law Tyndareos [Tyndareus] gave me to your wife Klytaimnestra&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as part of her dowry, to be her loyal servant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Old Man makes a number of subsequent appearances on stage. In his final scene he reminds us—this time addressing Klytaimnestra—that, &quot;as you know, I was part of your dowry when you married King Agamemnon&quot; (Line 869).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These are the only explicit ancient references I have found to the content of Klytaimnestra's dowry.&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; The elderly slave makes no mention of what (or who) else accompanied him at the time of the transfer in question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Helen's Dowry**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is arguably a lot messier to determine what Helen's dowry was. It could perhaps be said that her dowry was the entire kingdom of Lakedaimon, into which Helen had been born a princess, but I don't see any explicit mention which draws that conclusion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is a (maybe surprisingly) common trope in Greek mythology for a foreign man to marry into the royal family and thus become king, succeeding his father-in-law on the throne. Typically this is because the father-in-law has produced no direct male heirs or he has survived all of his male issue. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(See for example Perseus inheriting the throne of Ethiopia, which he never takes but transfers to his firstborn son Perses; Pelops—grandfather of Agamemnon and Menelaus—becoming king of Pisa after Oinomaos [Oenomaus]&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;; Alkathous [Alcathous], a son of Pelops [and thus uncle of Agamemnon and Menelaus] becoming king of Megara after Megareus; and [Priam's ancestor] Dardanos [Dardanus] becoming king of Teukria [Teucria] after Teukros [Teucer].) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are we to automatically understand from this that the kingdom which the outsider inherits is ordinarily part of his princess bride's dowry? If the answer to that is no, then we do not seem to be told—between the entire kingdom of Lakedaimon on the one hand, and merely a fraction of its resources on the other—where Helen's dowry begins and ends.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Status of Menelaus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But let's assume that the answer to that is yes, and that the dowry in question includes the lion's share of Tyndareos' family wealth. How Helen and her own position should affect the status of Menelaus is still a murky thing to ascertain, not least because of the unprecedented saga in which the two of them get embroiled. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It obviously is an unusual nuptial negotiation setup to have all of Greece's most powerful and most important kings and princes suing for the hand of one princess at the same time with as much determination as the suits for Helen ended up garnering.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nonetheless, even with all of that baggage to deal with, there is a scene in *Iphigeneia at Aulis* which suggests that Menelaus bears no obligation to recover his wife from Paris. At his first appearance in the play, Menelaus engages Agamemnon in a quarrel about the planned sacrifice of Agamemnon's daughter Iphigeneia to Artemis in order for the goddess to release the winds for the assembled Greek army fleet to sail to Troy and attack it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Agamemnon has been trying to find a way of avoiding killing his daughter, and Menelaus berates him for it. They are interrupted by a messenger's announcement that Iphigeneia, who thinks that she's been brought to wed the Myrmidon prince Akhilleus [Achilles], has arrived. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Upon Agamemnon's genuine distress over Iphigeneia's arrival, Menelaus changes his mind and even urges Agamemnon not to go through with it. They could just disband the gathered army and forget the whole expedition. As he says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; After all, what is it exactly that I want? Is it marriage? Surely I&#xD;&#xA;&gt; could find another wife elsewhere! Gods forbid that I should choose to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lose a brother to win a Helen! Should I exchange the good for bad?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He doesn't seem much concerned about losing the throne, if such a threat even exists. Another wrinkle to the question of Lakedaimon's throne has already appeared. Menelaus and Helen have a daughter, named Hermione, whom Helen left behind in Lakedaimon when she took off with Paris. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is Hermione a secure heir at this point, whether her mother is a present and dutiful wife or if her mother has been taken by another man? Is it enough that Menelaus has had a legitimate daughter by the previous heiress to the kingdom, whatever it is that may have happened to said heiress?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going by what seems to be virtually customary all over Greece and the Mediterranean Basin by this point, as far as the Greek myths go, all we would need to do is find an eligible (typically foreign and royal) bachelor for Hermione to wed and it's all good: he would be next king. And that need not mean Menelaus' displacement before his time is done.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As fate would have it, later on, after the saga has cooled down and Helen has been brought back, a stranger (in a sense) comes to town and marries Hermione. The groom is none other than Prince Orestes of Argolis, the son of Agamemnon and Klytaimnestra, and thus Hermione's own cousin, who will thus rule over both Argolis and Lakedaimon, in a consolidated position more powerful than either of the immediately preceding rulers of these kingdoms.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going back to Menelaus: perhaps the lines are blurry enough between wounded pride; the famous Oath of Tyndareos; and doubt as to whether his position on the throne is secure after he has been so vilely cuckolded and robbed of &quot;the treasures&quot; (which are usually invoked as part of what the Greeks demand to be returned along with Helen) by an honoured guest in his house, that his brother Agamemnon is convinced he must after all go through with the sacrifice of Iphigeneia. Thereafter, of course, come the  long years of war far from home. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Status of Agamemnon**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While Menelaus' status might be quite open to interpretation, I think that Agamemnon's is much less so. Apart from the apparent politically diplomatic (and thereby strategic?) connection to his wife's family and its fame, Agamemnon does not appear to have anything to gain by marrying Klytaimnestra. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Agamemnon was officially the king of the city of Mykenai [Mycenae], which position made him the ruler of all of Argolis, a large northeastern swath of Peloponnesos [Peloponnesus] which contained the great cities of Argos, Tiryns and Troizenos [Troezen]. The rule of the city of Argos was divided among at least four kings (including Amphilokhos, Kyanippos and Tlepolemos [the last of these being a son of Herakles]) who reigned under Agamemnon. By the time the Trojan War had ended (or shortly after) so had the reigns of these men, unceremoniously, while the throne of Agamemnon still mattered a great deal, and it devolved upon his son Orestes, who was even more powerful than his father had been.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Shortly after becoming king, Agamemnon led an army north of Argos, against King Hippolytos [Hippolytus] of Sikyon [Sicyon], a great-grandson of Herakles, and forced him to acknowledge himself as a subject of Mykenai. According to Strabo (*Geographia* 8):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When everything fell to the sons of Atreus, Agamemnon, being the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; elder, assumed the supreme power, and by a combination of good fortune&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and valour acquired much of the country in addition to the possessions&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he already had; and indeed he also added Lakonia to the territory of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mykenai. Now Menelaus came into possession of Lakonia, but Agamemnon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; received Mykenai and the regions as far as Korinthos [Corinth] and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sikyon and the country which at that time was called the land of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ionians and Aegialians but later the land of the Achaeans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lakedaimon was part of Lakonia. Strabo's account here essentially nullifies altogether the idea that Menelaus was dependent on his father-in-law for his position as king of Lakedaimon. Apollodorus' *Epitome* 2.15, however, tells a somewhat different story in which Tyndareos, at least for a time, looked after Agamemnon and Menelaus when they were in exile from Argolis, saying that he brought them back from their wanderings in Sikyon and Aitolia [Aetolia] so that they could reclaim their birthright. Perhaps there was some symbiosis taking place in their relationship with Tyndareos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond all that, Agamemnon held territory near Pylos in Messenia (on the direct opposite side of Peloponnesos from his home base), at least seven cities' worth, and seems to have come close to ruling all of Peloponnesos, like his grandfather Pelops, who had named the vast southern peninsula of Greece, &quot;Pelops' Island,&quot; after himself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not every version of the story of Agamemnon's wedding to Klytaimnestra has her previously married so that her husband and child are killed by Agamemnon before he takes her for himself. In this case he does not necessarily force her to marry him, at least not any more so than women would have had very much of a say in who they married, or when.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Either way it is remarkable that Agamemnon manages to get away with the murder of Klytaimnestra's former husband in the violent version, and the way he gets away with it is noteworthy. In *Iphigeneia at Aulis* 1150-1155, Klytaimnestra's divine brothers the twin Dioskouroi [Dioscuri], who had departed from the world of mortals years before, are so enraged about Agamemnon's slaying of their brother-in-law and their nephew that they actually leave Zeus' side in heaven or on Mt Olympos [Olympus] and come charging on immortal horseback against Agamemnon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Inexplicably, Agamemnon pleads with Tyndareos to help him out, and Tyndareos obliges him, not only convincing the Dioskouroi to let the offence go but also marrying Klytaimnestra off to her husband's killer! Either Agamemnon had something on Tyndareos or they must have had a stellar relationship. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;None of this events, however, seem to add to Agamemnon's clout beyond the ways already aforementioned. He was already a rich and powerful king and his dominions continued to increase after he got married, evidently *in spite of* the marriage. As already pointed out, his brother already ruled the southeastern portion of Peloponnesos (which Strabo claims Agamemnon had given to him in the first place anyway), which certainly would only have served him further.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Peloponnesos map][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;Again, not that any of this saved him from a bedchamber assassination plot when he got back home from the war in Asia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Notes**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Okay, so *technically* [the true ancient spelling of this character's name](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clytemnestra#Name), such as it occurs,  for instance in *Iphigeneia at Aulis*, actually has no N in it. It is really Κλυταιμήστρα = Klytaimestra/ Clyt[a]emestra. The more common spelling in modern times (*with* the N), such as I have opted to use in this Answer, supposedly does not occur before the 700s AD, at the earliest.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. It would be interesting if there *are* after all others with further detail.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. In the case of Pelops and Oinomaos, the only way for Pelops to marry Oinomaos' daughter is by, first, defeating his father-in-law-to-be in a chariot-race and then killing Oinomaos, which tasks Pelops succeeds in performing (even if he cheats a little bit in order to win).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ZccZZ.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13996" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3519" RevisionGUID="5d144f22-725c-47b2-a67f-c59c7037febc" CreationDate="2018-03-13T16:31:59.317" UserId="57" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="Metalworkers were [Dactyls][1] from mountain Ida which excavate the iron from Berekint mountain and bring it into Troy. Also they were called Phrygians or Curetes. Source: Robert Graves, The Greek myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dactyl_(mythology)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="13997" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3523" RevisionGUID="8c21b62a-b921-49b6-9eaf-143fcdb1c450" CreationDate="2018-03-13T17:21:32.983" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar, corrected some details, &amp; added some info" Text="BRIEF&#xD;&#xA;=====&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Euripides, the dowry of Klytaimnestra [Clytaemnestra/ Clytemnestra]&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; is a male slave and some other undisclosed items (and/or persons?). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We do not have any such detail(s) about what Helen's dowry is, unless we guess that the entire kingdom of Lakedaimon *is* this dowry. I'm not convinced that such is necessarily the case. (More on that below.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From his father Atreus, Agamemnon inherits the kingdom of Argolis, which is already wealthy and powerful at the time of his accession to the throne thereof. He goes on to augment its power through his own agency. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no obvious connection between his marriage and his status, except insofar as it appears to be strategically beneficial in terms of political alliance. On top of that, things are yet easier for him in this regard because his brother Menelaus, with whom he is on good terms, has already married into the same family by the time that Agamemnon weds Klytaimnestra.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apart from gaining a high-class wife, as well as further consolidation of power between Argolis and Lakedaimon, somehow (it seems counter-intuitive, at least from a regional diplomacy point-of-view, to start it off as violently as the version in which Klytaimnestra is first widowed in order to be [re]married), I don't see that Agamemnon has anything to gain by marrying Klytaimnestra. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Based on all this, his status does *not* seem to depend on his wife, royal or otherwise. Granted, of course, that upon feeling slighted enough by him, this wife does organise for him to be slaughtered when he returns home from Troy, so in that sense, well... his status depends on her a frightfully good deal.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Klytaimnestra's Dowry**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the end of the 400s BC Euripides wrote a play entitled *Iphigeneia at Aulis*. A fairly major character thereof is a quirky unnamed individual known simply as the &quot;Old Man.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the play's introduction scene, a discussion comes up between this character and the Argive king Agamemnon, in which we find out that the Old Man is a slave belonging to the royal household of Argolis. Via a bit of expository dialogue in Lines 42-45—addressed here to Agamemnon but really directed at the audience—the slave reveals to us that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Your old father-in-law Tyndareos [Tyndareus] gave me to your wife Klytaimnestra&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as part of her dowry, to be her loyal servant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Old Man makes a number of subsequent appearances on stage. In his final scene he reminds us—this time addressing Klytaimnestra—that, &quot;as you know, I was part of your dowry when you married King Agamemnon&quot; (Line 869).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These are the only explicit ancient references I have found to the content of Klytaimnestra's dowry.&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; The elderly slave makes no mention of what (or who) else accompanied him at the time of the transfer in question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Helen's Dowry**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is arguably a lot messier to determine what Helen's dowry was. It could perhaps be said that her dowry was the entire kingdom of Lakedaimon, into which Helen had been born a princess, but I don't see any explicit mention which draws that conclusion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is a (maybe surprisingly) common trope in Greek mythology for a foreign man to marry into the royal family and thus become king, succeeding his father-in-law on the throne. Typically this is because the father-in-law has produced no direct male heirs or he has survived all of his male issue. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(See for example Perseus inheriting the throne of Ethiopia, which he never takes but transfers to his firstborn son Perses; Pelops—grandfather of Agamemnon and Menelaus—becoming king of Pisa after Oinomaos [Oenomaus]&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;; Alkathous [Alcathous], a son of Pelops [and thus uncle of Agamemnon and Menelaus] becoming king of Megara after Megareus; Sikyon [Sicyon], another son of Pelops, succeeding Lamedon as king of Aigialia [Aegialia], which he renamed Sikyon after himself; and [Priam's ancestor] Dardanos [Dardanus] becoming king of Teukria [Teucria] after Teukros [Teucer].) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are we to automatically understand from this that the kingdom which the outsider inherits is ordinarily part of his princess bride's dowry? If the answer to that is no, then we do not seem to be told—between the entire kingdom of Lakedaimon on the one hand, and merely a fraction of its resources on the other—where Helen's dowry begins and ends.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Status of Menelaus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But let's assume that the answer to that is yes, and that the dowry in question includes the lion's share of Tyndareos' family wealth. How Helen and her own position should affect the status of Menelaus is still a murky thing to ascertain, not least because of the unprecedented saga in which the two of them get embroiled. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It obviously is an unusual nuptial negotiation setup to have all of Greece's most powerful and most important kings and princes suing for the hand of one princess at the same time with as much determination as the suits for Helen ended up garnering.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nonetheless, even with all of that baggage to deal with, there is a scene in *Iphigeneia at Aulis* which suggests that Menelaus bears no obligation to recover his wife from Paris. At his first appearance in the play, Menelaus engages Agamemnon in a quarrel about the planned sacrifice of Agamemnon's daughter Iphigeneia to Artemis in order for the goddess to release the winds for the assembled Greek army fleet to sail to Troy and attack it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Agamemnon has been trying to find a way of avoiding killing his daughter, and Menelaus berates him for it. They are interrupted by a messenger's announcement that Iphigeneia, who thinks that she's been brought to wed the Myrmidon prince Akhilleus [Achilles], has arrived. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Upon Agamemnon's genuine distress over Iphigeneia's arrival, Menelaus changes his mind and even urges Agamemnon not to go through with it. They could just disband the gathered army and forget the whole expedition. As he says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; After all, what is it exactly that I want? Is it marriage? Surely I&#xD;&#xA;&gt; could find another wife elsewhere! Gods forbid that I should choose to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lose a brother to win a Helen! Should I exchange the good for bad?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He doesn't seem much concerned about losing the throne, if such a threat even exists. Another wrinkle to the question of Lakedaimon's throne has already appeared. Menelaus and Helen have a daughter, named Hermione, whom Helen left behind in Lakedaimon when she took off with Paris. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is Hermione a secure heir at this point, whether her mother is a present and dutiful wife or if her mother has been taken by another man? Is it enough that Menelaus has had a legitimate daughter by the previous heiress to the kingdom, whatever it is that may have happened to said heiress?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going by what seems to be virtually customary all over Greece and the Mediterranean Basin by this point, as far as the Greek myths go, all we would need to do is find an eligible (typically foreign and royal) bachelor for Hermione to wed and it's all good: he would be next king. And that need not mean Menelaus' displacement before his time is done.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As fate would have it, later on, after the saga has cooled down and Helen has been brought back, a stranger (in a sense) comes to town and marries Hermione. The groom is none other than Prince Orestes of Argolis, the son of Agamemnon and Klytaimnestra, and thus Hermione's own cousin, who will thus rule over both Argolis and Lakedaimon, in a consolidated position more powerful than either of the immediately preceding rulers of these kingdoms.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going back to Menelaus: perhaps the lines are blurry enough between wounded pride; the famous Oath of Tyndareos; and doubt as to whether his position on the throne is secure after he has been so vilely cuckolded and robbed of &quot;the treasures&quot; (which are usually invoked as part of what the Greeks demand to be returned along with Helen) by an honoured guest in his house, that his brother Agamemnon is convinced he must after all go through with the sacrifice of Iphigeneia. Thereafter, of course, come the  long years of war far from home. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Status of Agamemnon**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While Menelaus' status might be quite open to interpretation, I think that Agamemnon's is much less so. Apart from the apparent politically diplomatic (and thereby strategic?) connection to his wife's family and its fame, Agamemnon does not appear to have anything to gain by marrying Klytaimnestra. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Agamemnon is primarily the king of the city of Mykenai [Mycenae], which position makes him the ruler of all of Argolis, a large northeastern swath of Peloponnesos [Peloponnesus] which contains the great cities of Argos, Tiryns and Troizenos [Troezen]. The rule of the city of Argos is divided among at least four kings (including Kyanippos; Sthenelos son of Iphis; and Tlepolemos son of Herakles) who reign under Agamemnon. By the time the Trojan War has ended (or shortly after) so have the reigns of these men, unceremoniously, while the throne of Agamemnon is still very much intact, to later devolve upon his son Orestes, who becomes even more powerful than his father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Shortly after becoming king, Agamemnon led an army north of Argos, against King Hippolytos [Hippolytus] of Sikyon, a great-grandson of Herakles, and made him subject to Mykenai. According to Strabo (*Geographia* 8):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When everything fell to the sons of Atreus, Agamemnon, being the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; elder, assumed the supreme power, and by a combination of good fortune&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and valour acquired much of the country in addition to the possessions&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he already had; and indeed he also added Lakonia to the territory of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mykenai. Now Menelaus came into possession of Lakonia, but Agamemnon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; received Mykenai and the regions as far as Korinthos [Corinth] and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sikyon and the country which at that time was called the land of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ionians and Aegialians but later the land of the Achaeans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lakedaimon was part of Lakonia. Strabo's account here essentially nullifies altogether the idea that Menelaus was dependent on his father-in-law for his position as king of Lakedaimon. Apollodorus' *Epitome* 2.15, however, tells a somewhat different story in which Tyndareos, at least for a time, looked after Agamemnon and Menelaus when they were in exile from Argolis, saying that he brought them back from their wanderings in Sikyon and Aitolia [Aetolia] so that they could reclaim their birthright. Perhaps there was some symbiosis taking place in their relationship with Tyndareos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond all that, Agamemnon held territory near Pylos in Messenia (on the direct opposite side of Peloponnesos from his home base), at least seven cities' worth, and, according to Strabo, he imposed his rule over all of Peloponnesos, like his grandfather Pelops, who had (re)named the vast southern peninsula of Greece, &quot;Pelops' Island,&quot; after himself, its emperor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not every version of the story of Agamemnon's wedding to Klytaimnestra has her previously married so that her husband and child are killed by Agamemnon before he takes her for himself. In this case he does not necessarily force her to marry him, at least not any more so than women would have had very much of a say in who they married, or when.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Either way it is remarkable that Agamemnon, in the violent courtship version, manages to get away with the murder of Klytaimnestra's former husband, and the way he gets away with it is noteworthy. In *Iphigeneia at Aulis* 1150-1155, Klytaimnestra's divine brothers the twin Dioskouroi [Dioscuri], who had departed from the world of mortals years before, are so enraged at Agamemnon's slaying of their brother-in-law and their nephew that they actually leave Zeus' side in heaven or on Mt Olympos [Olympus] and come charging on immortal horseback against Agamemnon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Inexplicably, Agamemnon pleads with Tyndareos to help him out, and Tyndareos obliges him, not only convincing the Dioskouroi to let the offence go but also marrying Klytaimnestra off to her husband's killer! Either Agamemnon had something on Tyndareos or they must have had a stellar relationship. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;None of these events, however, seem to add to Agamemnon's clout beyond the ways already aforementioned. He was already a rich and powerful king and his dominions continued to increase after he got married, evidently *in spite of* the marriage. As already pointed out, his brother already ruled the southeastern portion of Peloponnesos (which Strabo claims Agamemnon had given to him in the first place anyway), which certainly would only have served him further.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Peloponnesos map][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;Again, not that any of this saved him from a bedchamber assassination plot when he got back home from the war in Asia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Notes**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Okay, so *technically* [the true ancient spelling of this character's name](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clytemnestra#Name), such as it occurs,  for instance in *Iphigeneia at Aulis*, actually has no N in it. It is really Κλυταιμήστρα = Klytaimestra/ Clyt[a]emestra. The more common spelling in modern times (*with* the N), such as I have opted to use in this Answer, supposedly does not occur before the 700s AD, at the earliest.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. It would be interesting if there *are* after all other references which provide further detail.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. In the case of Pelops and Oinomaos, the only way for Pelops to marry Oinomaos' daughter is by, first, defeating his father-in-law-to-be in a chariot-race and then killing Oinomaos, which tasks Pelops succeeds in performing (even if he cheats a little bit in order to win).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ZccZZ.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="14001" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3526" RevisionGUID="12b25e42-4aed-435f-ab8d-ff8f2f0a0351" CreationDate="2018-03-13T20:49:44.823" UserId="4864" Text="This famous metalworkers were king Ejetus and Epeirotus from Colhida(Colhis).Metopa was in their prison which was something like the metal workshop.Also they had a stoves for iron which were presented  like a bulls who vomit the fire.I took the source:Robert Graves,The Greek myths,Story of Argo." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="14003" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3527" RevisionGUID="eddeb353-d01c-4bd0-8547-088df428c130" CreationDate="2018-03-13T23:42:04.837" UserId="4525" Text="Prometheus was a Titan. He helped people several times. But was he praised as a god would be? Gaia was the very mother earth, was she loved as any other goddess would be? Atlas held the earth in the skies (or the other way around), was he respected for this service?&#xA;&#xA;Why do all titans seem like cameos in the greek mythology? &#xA;&#xA;It seems like - Oh this guy, what was he? Oh yes the time itself. Yea that is just a old story." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="14004" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3527" RevisionGUID="eddeb353-d01c-4bd0-8547-088df428c130" CreationDate="2018-03-13T23:42:04.837" UserId="4525" Text="How were titans viewed by ancient Greeks?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="14005" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3527" RevisionGUID="eddeb353-d01c-4bd0-8547-088df428c130" CreationDate="2018-03-13T23:42:04.837" UserId="4525" Text="|greek|titans|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="14006" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3528" RevisionGUID="81ce14c0-f1e0-41e8-b84d-dafd671f0b4f" CreationDate="2018-03-14T01:26:07.290" UserId="4271" Text="The reason the titans don't appear in many myths is because of the Ages of Man. To answer this question, you need a little backstory first. In the Golden Age, the primordial deities(first gods) ruled the world and Underworld. Gaia was the earth and Ouranos was the sky. They were mated and had many kids. Long story short, Gaia got her kids(specifically the titan males[minus Oceanus]) to over threw him as king and Cronus claimed the thrown.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Fast forward Cronus was also bad(he ate his kids as soon as they were born) and his wife, Rhea, hid their sixth kid and gave him a rock to eat instead. When Zeus(the sixth kid) was all grown up, he served as Cronus's cup bearer. One day, with the help of Metis by some, Zeus put some mustard in his cup and had his dad puke up his siblings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After a ten year was, Zeus and his five siblings defeat the titans. Most are sent to Tartarus(the pit) as punishment. But some, like those didn't partake in the war, didn't. The ones who remained neutral were left alone. The others that did were punished differently. Atlas's punishment for helping Cronus was to hold the sky up for eternity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then Zeus named himself king and thus started the Silver Age.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Prometheus was a beneficiary of mankind. Because of this, he was seen as less of a titan and more of a god, but still being called a titan. In other words, a titan is a god, but a god is not a titan. All titans are gods, but only titans are titans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gaia was loved as any other goddess. 'Oaths sworn in the name of Gaia, in ancient Greece, were considered the most binding of all. She was also worshiped under the epithet &quot;Anesidora&quot;, which means &quot;giver of gifts&quot;'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After the Silver Age, titans aren't really mentioned as most were in Tartarus. Those that aren't are often just called gods or Titan gods. Examples: Helios, Titan god of the sun, a guardian of oaths, and the god of sight. Selene, goddess of the moon, sister of Helios. Hecate, goddess of magic, crossroads, witchcraft..." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="14007" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3523" RevisionGUID="c766ec8e-d30b-4468-8940-dc9a016cd4f6" CreationDate="2018-03-14T05:15:48.410" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; tweaked info" Text="BRIEF&#xD;&#xA;=====&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Euripides, the dowry of Klytaimnestra [Clytaemnestra/ Clytemnestra]&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; is a male slave and some other undisclosed items (and/or persons?). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We do not have any such detail(s) about what Helen's dowry is, unless we guess that the entire kingdom of Lakedaimon *is* this dowry. I'm not convinced that such is necessarily the case. (More on that below.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From his father Atreus, Agamemnon inherits the kingdom of Argolis, which is already wealthy and powerful at the time of his accession to the throne thereof. He goes on to augment its power through his own agency. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no obvious connection between his marriage and his status, except insofar as it appears to be strategically beneficial in terms of political alliance. On top of that, things are yet easier for him in this regard because his brother Menelaus, with whom he is on good terms, has already married into the same family by the time that Agamemnon weds Klytaimnestra.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apart from gaining a high-class wife, as well as further consolidation of power between Argolis and Lakedaimon, somehow (it seems counter-intuitive, at least from a regional diplomacy point-of-view, to start it off by widowing the prospective bride and killing her baby), I don't see that Agamemnon has anything to gain by marrying Klytaimnestra. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Based on all this, his status does *not* seem to depend on his wife, royal or otherwise. Granted, of course, that upon feeling slighted enough by him, this wife does organise for him to be slaughtered when he returns home from Troy, so in that sense, well... his status depends on her a frightfully good deal.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Klytaimnestra's Dowry**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the end of the 400s BC Euripides wrote a play entitled *Iphigeneia at Aulis*, in which a fairly major character is a quirky unnamed individual known simply as the &quot;Old Man.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the play's introduction scene, it is pointed out that the Old Man is a slave belonging to the royal household of Argolis. Via a bit of expository dialogue in Lines 42-45—addressed here to Agamemnon but really directed at the audience—the slave reveals to us that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Your old father-in-law Tyndareos [Tyndareus] gave me to your wife Klytaimnestra&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as part of her dowry, to be her loyal servant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Old Man makes a number of subsequent appearances on stage. In his final scene he reminds us—this time addressing Klytaimnestra—that, &quot;as you know, I was part of your dowry when you married King Agamemnon&quot; (Line 869).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These are the only explicit ancient references I have found to the content of Klytaimnestra's dowry.&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; The elderly slave makes no mention of what (or who) else accompanied him at the time of the transfer in question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Helen's Dowry**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is arguably a lot messier to determine what Helen's dowry was. It could perhaps be said that her dowry was the entire kingdom of Lakedaimon, into which Helen had been born a princess, but I don't see any explicit mention which draws that conclusion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is a (maybe surprisingly) common trope in Greek mythology for a foreign man to marry into a city's royal family and thus become king, succeeding his father-in-law on the throne. Typically this is because the father-in-law has produced no direct male heirs or he has survived all of his male issue. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(See for example Perseus inheriting the throne of Ethiopia, which he never takes but transfers to his firstborn son Perses; Pelops—grandfather of Agamemnon and Menelaus—becoming king of Pisa after Oinomaos [Oenomaus]&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;; Alkathous [Alcathous], a son of Pelops [and thus uncle of Agamemnon and Menelaus] becoming king of Megara after Megareus; Sikyon [Sicyon], another son of Pelops, succeeding Lamedon as king of Mekone, which he renames Sikyon after himself; and [Priam's ancestor] Dardanos [Dardanus] becoming king of Teukria [Teucria] after Teukros [Teucer].) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are we to automatically understand from this that the kingdom which the outsider inherits is ordinarily part of his princess bride's dowry? If the answer to that is no, then we do not seem to be told—between the entire kingdom of Lakedaimon on the one hand, and merely a fraction of its resources on the other—where Helen's dowry begins and ends.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Status of Menelaus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But let's assume that the answer to that is yes, and that the dowry in question includes the lion's share of Tyndareos' family wealth. How Helen and her own position should affect the status of Menelaus is still a murky thing to ascertain, not least because of the unprecedented saga in which the two of them get embroiled. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It obviously is an unusual nuptial negotiation setup to have all of Greece's most powerful and most important kings and princes suing for the hand of one princess at the same time with as much determination as the suits for Helen ended up garnering.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nonetheless, even with all of that baggage to deal with, there is a scene in *Iphigeneia at Aulis* which suggests that Menelaus bears no obligation to recover his wife from Paris. At his first appearance in the play, Menelaus engages Agamemnon in a quarrel about the planned sacrifice of Agamemnon's daughter Iphigeneia to Artemis in order for the goddess to release the winds for the Greek fleet to sail to Troy and attack it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Agamemnon has been trying to find a way to avoid killing his daughter, and Menelaus berates him for it. They are interrupted by a messenger's announcement of the arrival of Iphigeneia, who believes that she's been summoned in order to wed the Myrmidon leader Achilles. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Upon Agamemnon's evident anguish that his daughter is now in Aulis, Menelaus changes his mind and even urges Agamemnon not to go through with it. They could just disband the gathered army and forget the whole expedition. As he says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; After all, what is it exactly that I want? Is it marriage? Surely I&#xD;&#xA;&gt; could find another wife elsewhere! Gods forbid that I should choose to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lose a brother to win a Helen! Should I exchange the good for bad?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He doesn't seem much concerned about losing the throne, if such a threat even exists. Another wrinkle to the question of Lakedaimon's throne has already appeared. Menelaus and Helen have a daughter, named Hermione, whom Helen left behind in Lakedaimon when she took off with Paris. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is Hermione a secure heir at this point, whether her mother is a present and dutiful wife or if her mother has been taken by another man? Is it enough that Menelaus has had a legitimate daughter by the previous heiress to the kingdom, whatever it is that may have happened to said heiress?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going by what seems to be virtually customary all over Greece and the Mediterranean Basin by this point, as far as the Greek myths go, all we would need to do is find an eligible (typically foreign and royal) bachelor for Hermione to wed and it's all good: he would be next king. And that need not mean Menelaus' displacement before his time is done.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As fate would have it, later on, after the saga has cooled down and Helen has been brought back, a stranger (in a sense) comes to town and marries Hermione. The groom is none other than Prince Orestes of Argolis, the son of Agamemnon and Klytaimnestra, and thus Hermione's own cousin, who will thus rule over both Argolis and Lakedaimon, in a consolidated position more powerful than either of the immediately preceding rulers of these kingdoms.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going back to Menelaus: perhaps the lines are blurry enough between wounded pride; the famous Oath of Tyndareos; and doubt as to whether his position on the throne is secure after he has been so vilely cuckolded and robbed of &quot;the treasures&quot; (which are usually invoked as part of what the Greeks demand to be returned along with Helen) by an honoured guest in his house, that, by the conclusion, his brother Agamemnon is convinced of his obligation to sacrifice Iphigeneia. Thereafter, of course, come the  long years of war far from home. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Status of Agamemnon**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While Menelaus' status might be quite open to interpretation, I think that Agamemnon's is much less so. Apart from the apparent politically diplomatic (and thereby strategic?) connection to his wife's family and its fame, Agamemnon does not appear to have anything to gain by marrying Klytaimnestra. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Agamemnon is primarily the king of the city of Mykenai [Mycenae], which position makes him the ruler of all of Argolis, a large northeastern swath of Peloponnesos [Peloponnesus] which contains the great cities of Argos, Tiryns and Troizenos [Troezen]. The rule of the city of Argos is divided among at least four kings (including Kyanippos son of Adrastos; Sthenelos son of Iphis; and Tlepolemos son of Herakles) who reign under Agamemnon. By the time the Trojan War has ended (or shortly after) so have the reigns of these men, unceremoniously, while the throne of Agamemnon is still very much intact, to later devolve upon his son Orestes, who becomes even more powerful than his father.&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Shortly after becoming king, Agamemnon led an army north of Argos, against King Hippolytos [Hippolytus] of Sikyon, a great-grandson of Herakles, and made him subject to Mykenai. According to Strabo (*Geographika* 8):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When everything fell to the sons of Atreus, Agamemnon, being the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; elder, assumed the supreme power, and by a combination of good fortune&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and valour acquired much of the country in addition to the possessions&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he already had; and indeed he also added Lakonia to the territory of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mykenai. Now Menelaus came into possession of Lakonia, but Agamemnon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; received Mykenai and the regions as far as Korinthos [Corinth] and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sikyon and the country which at that time was called the land of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ionians and Aegialians but later the land of the Achaeans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lakedaimon was part of Lakonia. Strabo's account here essentially nullifies altogether the idea that Menelaus was dependent on his father-in-law for his position as king of Lakedaimon. Apollodorus' *Epitome* 2.15, however, tells a somewhat different story in which Tyndareos, at least for a time, looked after Agamemnon and Menelaus when they were in exile from Argolis, saying that he brought them back from their wanderings in Sikyon and Aitolia [Aetolia] so that they could reclaim their birthright. Perhaps there was some symbiosis taking place in their relationship with Tyndareos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond all that, Agamemnon held territory near Pylos in Messenia (on the direct opposite side of Peloponnesos from his home base), at least seven cities' worth, and, according to Strabo, he imposed his rule over all of Peloponnesos, like his grandfather Pelops, who had (re)named the vast southern peninsula of Greece, &quot;Pelops' Island,&quot; after himself, its emperor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is remarkable that Agamemnon gets away with the murder of Klytaimnestra's former husband, and the manner in which he manages to do so is noteworthy. In *Iphigeneia at Aulis* 1150-1155, Klytaimnestra's divine brothers the twin Dioskouroi [Dioscuri], who had departed from the world of mortals years before, are so enraged at Agamemnon's slaying of their brother-in-law and their nephew that they actually leave Zeus' side (presumably in heaven or on Mt Olympos [Olympus]) and come charging on immortal horseback against Agamemnon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Inexplicably, Agamemnon pleads with Tyndareos to help him out, and Tyndareos obliges him, not only convincing the Dioskouroi to forgive the offence but also marrying Klytaimnestra off to her husband's killer! Either Agamemnon had something on Tyndareos or they must have had a stellar relationship. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;None of these events, however, seem to add to Agamemnon's clout beyond the ways already aforementioned. He was already a rich and powerful king and his dominions continued to increase after he got married, evidently *in spite of* the marriage. As already pointed out, his brother already ruled the southeastern portion of Peloponnesos (which Strabo understands Agamemnon to have given to him in the first place anyway), which certainly would only have served him further.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Peloponnesos map][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;Again, not that any of this saved him from a bedchamber assassination plot when he got back home from the war in Asia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Notes**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Okay, so *technically* [the true ancient spelling of this character's name](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clytemnestra#Name), such as it occurs,  for instance in *Iphigeneia at Aulis*, actually has no N in it. It is really Κλυταιμήστρα = Klytaimestra/ Clyt[a]emestra. The more common spelling in modern times (*with* the N), such as I have opted to use in this Answer, supposedly does not occur before the 700s AD, at the earliest.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. It would be interesting if there *are* after all other references which provide further detail.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. In the case of Pelops and Oinomaos, the only way for Pelops to marry Oinomaos' daughter is by, first, defeating his father-in-law-to-be in a chariot-race and then killing Oinomaos, which tasks Pelops succeeds in performing (even if he cheats a little bit in order to win).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;4. Between Agamemnon's death and Orestes' accession to the throne, though, there is a sort of interregnum in which Kylarabes son of Sthenelos rules Argolis.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ZccZZ.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="14008" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3527" RevisionGUID="28ff0301-b47c-4ecd-a50c-939fefded759" CreationDate="2018-03-14T07:55:27.557" UserId="4271" Comment="correcting spelling, fixing grammar, repairing incorrect representation of myths" Text="Prometheus was a Titan. He helped people several times. But why was he praised as a god would be? Gaia was the very mother Earth. Was she loved as any other goddess would be? Atlas held the sky up from crashing down on the earth. Was he respected for this service?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why do all titans seem like cameos in the greek mythology? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems like - Oh this guy, what was he? Oh yes the time itself. Yea that is just an old story." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="14009" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3527" RevisionGUID="28ff0301-b47c-4ecd-a50c-939fefded759" CreationDate="2018-03-14T07:55:27.557" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by -1 edit id of 573" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="14010" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3527" RevisionGUID="8b6fdc57-d400-4e88-b95c-e909697b3bd1" CreationDate="2018-03-14T07:55:27.557" UserId="666" Comment="correcting spelling, fixing grammar, repairing incorrect representation of myths" Text="Prometheus was a Titan. He helped people several times. But was he praised as a god would be? Gaia was the very mother Earth. Was she loved as any other goddess would be? Atlas held the sky up from crashing down on the earth. Was he respected for this service?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why do all titans seem like cameos in the greek mythology? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems like - Oh this guy, what was he? Oh yes the time itself. Yea that is just an old story." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="14011" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3529" RevisionGUID="37619a1c-3db7-4f9f-8710-a21c3f2212f3" CreationDate="2018-03-14T17:21:49.713" UserId="4866" Text="I would say he is by biology half jotunn half aesir. The only reasonable reason he would be called as son of Laufey and not of Farboti is because she was a godess most likely exiled as a result of her marrying Fatboti. This makes Loki an outsider to both Aesir qnd Jotunn and explains his nature. He needed his fickle nature to survive as both groups wanted him dead. Now his blood oath with Odin should gave made the Aesir accept him but they still showed their hate and determined Loki to play tricks on them. About him being Tokk this makes sense only to the wicked mind of the Aesir who unlike Loki seem unable to take resposibility for their actions and fix their mistakes." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="14012" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3529" RevisionGUID="91c85f4d-ddc6-4a44-90d2-a7d14f9fe009" CreationDate="2018-03-14T17:35:33.227" UserId="2774" Comment="Small typos" Text="I would say he is by biology half Jotunn half Aesir. The only reasonable reason he would be called as a son of Laufey and not of Farboti is that she was a goddess most likely exiled as a result of her marrying Fatboti. This makes Loki an outsider to both Aesir and Jotunn and explains his nature. He needed his fickle nature to survive as both groups wanted him dead. Now his blood oath with Odin should give made the Aesir accept him but they still showed their hate and determined Loki to play tricks on them. About him being Tokk this makes sense only to the wicked mind of the Aesir who unlike Loki seem unable to take responsibility for their actions and fix their mistakes." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="14013" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3523" RevisionGUID="cde378ec-a5eb-4c71-aa14-8257a1974cfe" CreationDate="2018-03-14T22:39:30.453" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="BRIEF&#xD;&#xA;=====&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Euripides, the dowry of Klytaimnestra [Clytaemnestra/ Clytemnestra]&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; is a male slave and some other undisclosed items (and/or persons?). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We do not have any such detail(s) about what Helen's dowry is, unless we guess that the entire kingdom of Lakedaimon *is* this dowry. I'm not convinced that such is necessarily the case. (More on that below.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From his father Atreus, Agamemnon inherits the kingdom of Argolis, which is already wealthy and powerful at the time of his accession to the throne thereof. He goes on to augment its power through his own agency. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no obvious connection between his marriage and his status, except insofar as it appears to be strategically beneficial in terms of political alliance. On top of that, things are yet easier for him in this regard because his brother Menelaus, with whom he is on good terms, has already married into the same family by the time that Agamemnon weds Klytaimnestra.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apart from gaining a high-class wife, as well as further consolidation of power between Argolis and Lakedaimon, somehow (it seems counter-intuitive, at least from a regional diplomacy point-of-view, to start it off by widowing the prospective bride and killing her baby), I don't see that Agamemnon has anything to gain by marrying Klytaimnestra. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Based on all this, his status does *not* seem to depend on his wife, royal or otherwise. Granted, of course, that upon feeling slighted enough by him, this wife does organise for him to be slaughtered when he returns home from Troy, so in that sense, well... his status depends on her a frightfully good deal.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Klytaimnestra's Dowry**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the end of the 400s BC Euripides wrote a play entitled *Iphigeneia at Aulis*, in which a fairly major character is a quirky unnamed individual known simply as the &quot;Old Man.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the play's introduction scene, it is pointed out that the Old Man is a slave belonging to the royal household of Argolis. Via a bit of expository dialogue in Lines 42-45—addressed here to Agamemnon but really directed at the audience—the slave reveals to us that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Your old father-in-law Tyndareos [Tyndareus] gave me to your wife Klytaimnestra&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as part of her dowry, to be her loyal servant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Old Man makes a number of subsequent appearances on stage. In his final scene he reminds us—this time addressing Klytaimnestra—that, &quot;as you know, I was part of your dowry when you married King Agamemnon&quot; (Line 869).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These are the only explicit ancient references I have found to the content of Klytaimnestra's dowry.&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; The elderly slave makes no mention of what (or who) else accompanied him at the time of the transfer in question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Helen's Dowry**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is arguably a lot messier to determine what Helen's dowry was. It could perhaps be said that her dowry was the entire kingdom of Lakedaimon, into which Helen had been born a princess, but I don't see any explicit mention which draws that conclusion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is a (maybe surprisingly) common trope in Greek mythology for a foreign man to marry into a city's royal family and thus become king, succeeding his father-in-law on the throne. Typically this is because the father-in-law has produced no direct male heirs or he has survived all of his male issue. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(See for example Perseus inheriting the throne of Ethiopia, which he never takes but transfers to his firstborn son Perses; Pelops—grandfather of Agamemnon and Menelaus—becoming king of Pisa after Oinomaos [Oenomaus]&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;; Alkathous [Alcathous], a son of Pelops [and thus uncle of Agamemnon and Menelaus] becoming king of Megara after Megareus; Sikyon [Sicyon], another son of Pelops, succeeding Lamedon as king of Mekone, which he renames Sikyon after himself; and [Priam's ancestor] Dardanos [Dardanus] becoming king of Teukria [Teucria] after Teukros [Teucer].) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are we to automatically understand from this that the kingdom which the outsider inherits is ordinarily part of his princess bride's dowry? If the answer to that is no, then we do not seem to be told—between the entire kingdom of Lakedaimon on the one hand, and merely a fraction of its resources on the other—where Helen's dowry begins and ends.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Status of Menelaus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But let's assume that the answer to that is yes, and that the dowry in question includes the lion's share of Tyndareos' family wealth. How Helen and her own position should affect the status of Menelaus is still a murky thing to ascertain, not least because of the unprecedented saga in which the two of them get embroiled. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It obviously is an unusual nuptial negotiation setup to have all of Greece's most powerful and most important kings and princes suing for the hand of one princess at the same time with as much determination as the suits for Helen end up garnering.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nonetheless, even with all of that baggage to deal with, there is a scene in *Iphigeneia at Aulis* which suggests that Menelaus bears no obligation to recover his wife from Paris. At his first appearance in the play, Menelaus engages Agamemnon in a quarrel about the planned sacrifice of Agamemnon's daughter Iphigeneia to Artemis in order for the goddess to release the winds for the Greek fleet to sail to Troy and attack it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Agamemnon has been trying to find a way to avoid killing his daughter, and Menelaus berates him for it. They are interrupted by a messenger's announcement of the arrival of Iphigeneia, who believes that she's been summoned in order to wed the Myrmidon leader Achilles. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Upon Agamemnon's evident anguish that his daughter is now in Aulis, Menelaus changes his mind and even urges Agamemnon not to go through with it. They could just disband the gathered army and forget the whole expedition. As he says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; After all, what is it exactly that I want? Is it marriage? Surely I&#xD;&#xA;&gt; could find another wife elsewhere! Gods forbid that I should choose to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lose a brother to win a Helen! Should I exchange the good for bad?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He doesn't seem much concerned about losing the throne, if such a threat even exists. Another wrinkle to the question of Lakedaimon's throne has already appeared. Menelaus and Helen have a daughter, named Hermione, whom Helen left behind in Lakedaimon when she took off with Paris. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is Hermione a secure heir at this point, whether her mother is a present and dutiful wife or if her mother has been taken by another man? Is it enough that Menelaus has had a legitimate daughter by the previous heiress to the kingdom, whatever it is that may have happened to said heiress?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going by what seems to be virtually customary all over Greece and the Mediterranean Basin by this point, as far as the Greek myths go, all we would need to do is find an eligible (typically foreign and royal) bachelor for Hermione to wed and it's all good: he would be the next king. And that need not mean Menelaus' displacement before his time is done.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As fate would have it, later on, after the saga has cooled down and Helen has been brought back, a stranger (in a sense) comes to town and marries Hermione. The groom is none other than Prince Orestes of Argolis, the son of Agamemnon and Klytaimnestra, and thus Hermione's own cousin, who will thus rule over both Argolis and Lakedaimon in a consolidated position now stronger than either of the immediately preceding rulers of these kingdoms.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going back to Menelaus: perhaps the lines are blurry enough between wounded pride; the famous Oath of Tyndareos; and doubt as to whether his position on the throne is secure after he has been so vilely cuckolded and robbed of &quot;the treasures&quot; (which are usually invoked as part of what the Greeks demand to be returned along with Helen) by an honoured guest in his house, that, by the conclusion, his brother Agamemnon is convinced of his obligation to sacrifice Iphigeneia. Thereafter, of course, come the  long years of war far from home. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Status of Agamemnon**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While Menelaus' status might be quite open to interpretation, I think that Agamemnon's is much less so. Apart from the apparent politically diplomatic (and thereby strategic?) connection to his wife's family and its fame, Agamemnon does not appear to have anything to gain by marrying Klytaimnestra. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Agamemnon is primarily the king of the city of Mykenai [Mycenae], which position makes him the ruler of all of Argolis, a large northeastern swath of Peloponnesos [Peloponnesus] which contains the great cities of Argos, Tiryns and Troizenos [Troezen]. The rule of the city of Argos is divided among at least four kings (including Kyanippos son of Adrastos; Sthenelos son of Iphis; and Tlepolemos son of Herakles) who reign under Agamemnon. By the time the Trojan War has ended (or shortly after) so have the reigns of these men, unceremoniously, while the throne of Agamemnon is still very much intact, to later devolve upon his son Orestes, who becomes even more powerful than his father.&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Shortly after becoming king, Agamemnon led an army north of Argos, against King Hippolytos [Hippolytus] of Sikyon, a great-grandson of Herakles, and made him subject to Mykenai. According to Strabo (*Geographika* 8):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When everything fell to the sons of Atreus, Agamemnon, being the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; elder, assumed the supreme power, and by a combination of good fortune&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and valour acquired much of the country in addition to the possessions&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he already had; and indeed he also added Lakonia to the territory of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mykenai. Now Menelaus came into possession of Lakonia, but Agamemnon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; received Mykenai and the regions as far as Korinthos [Corinth] and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sikyon and the country which at that time was called the land of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ionians and Aegialians but later the land of the Achaeans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lakedaimon was part of Lakonia. Strabo's account here essentially nullifies altogether the idea that Menelaus was dependent on his father-in-law for his position as king of Lakedaimon. Apollodorus' *Epitome* 2.15, however, tells a somewhat different story in which Tyndareos, at least for a time, looked after Agamemnon and Menelaus when they were in exile from Argolis, saying that he brought them back from their wanderings in Sikyon and Aitolia [Aetolia] so that they could reclaim their birthright. Perhaps there was some symbiosis taking place in their relationship with Tyndareos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond all that, Agamemnon held territory near Pylos in Messenia (on the direct opposite side of Peloponnesos from his home base), at least seven cities' worth, and, according to Strabo, he imposed his rule over all of Peloponnesos, like his grandfather Pelops, who had (re)named the vast southern peninsula of Greece, &quot;Pelops' Island,&quot; after himself, its emperor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is remarkable that Agamemnon gets away with the murder of Klytaimnestra's former husband, and the manner in which he manages to do so is noteworthy. In *Iphigeneia at Aulis* 1150-1155, Klytaimnestra's divine brothers the twin Dioskouroi [Dioscuri], who had departed from the world of mortals years before, are so enraged at Agamemnon's slaying of their brother-in-law and their nephew that they actually leave Zeus' side (presumably in heaven or on Mt Olympos [Olympus]) and come charging on immortal horseback against Agamemnon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Inexplicably, Agamemnon pleads with Tyndareos to help him out, and Tyndareos obliges him, not only convincing the Dioskouroi to forgive the offence but also marrying Klytaimnestra off to her husband's killer! Either Agamemnon had something on Tyndareos or they must have had a stellar relationship. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;None of these events, however, seem to add to Agamemnon's clout beyond the ways already aforementioned. He was already a rich and powerful king and his dominions continued to increase after he got married, evidently *in spite of* the marriage. As pointed out previously, his brother already ruled the southeastern portion of Peloponnesos (which Strabo understands Agamemnon to have given to him in the first place anyway), which certainly would only have served him further.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Peloponnesos map][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;Again, not that any of this saved him from a bedchamber assassination plot when he got back home from the war in Asia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Notes**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Okay, so *technically* [the true ancient spelling of this character's name](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clytemnestra#Name), such as it occurs,  for instance in *Iphigeneia at Aulis*, actually has no N in it. It is really Κλυταιμήστρα = Klytaimestra/ Clyt[a]emestra. The more common spelling in modern times (*with* the N), such as I have opted to use in this Answer, supposedly does not occur before the 700s AD, at the earliest.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. It would be interesting if there *are* after all other references which provide further detail.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. In the case of Pelops and Oinomaos, the only way for Pelops to marry Oinomaos' daughter is by, first, defeating his father-in-law-to-be in a chariot-race and then killing Oinomaos, which tasks Pelops succeeds in performing (even if he cheats a little bit in order to win).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;4. Between Agamemnon's death and Orestes' accession to the throne, though, there is a sort of interregnum in which Kylarabes son of Sthenelos rules Argolis.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ZccZZ.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="14015" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3530" RevisionGUID="b7dce6d3-154f-4227-8e8b-720e1fc8428f" CreationDate="2018-03-15T00:05:15.637" UserId="4271" Text="I recently read that ambrosia, the food of the gods, is brought to Olympus by doves. But, who makes it? Is it natural to the earth(i.e. a plant)? Is their a deity that makes it and sends the doves to Olympus? What about nectar, the drink of the gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="14016" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3530" RevisionGUID="b7dce6d3-154f-4227-8e8b-720e1fc8428f" CreationDate="2018-03-15T00:05:15.637" UserId="4271" Text="Who makes ambrosia?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="14017" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3530" RevisionGUID="b7dce6d3-154f-4227-8e8b-720e1fc8428f" CreationDate="2018-03-15T00:05:15.637" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|olympians|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="14018" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1755" RevisionGUID="6a74b647-bcf7-40e5-b844-308937cb8542" CreationDate="2018-03-15T09:07:51.480" UserId="2682" Comment="tweaked a detail" Text="In Orphic cosmogony, which is a somewhat more esoteric version of the mainstream Olympian accounts, Khaos [Chaos] emerged from or was given birth by a being named Aion [Aeon], who is mentioned by Quintus of Smyrna and Nonnus of Panopolis. In modern English, Aion is very frequently translated &quot;Eternity,&quot; even though this not really what the word originally meant. At first it denoted a &quot;Lifespan&quot; (the lifespan of anything, whether of something long-lived like a tribe of people or an empire; or of something as short-lived as a housefly [= about one month]). It eventually came to embody the concept of time that is bigger than ordinary linear chronology as experienced by mortals and eventually into what we think of today as &quot;Eternity,&quot; even though Latin *Æternitas* actually doesn't mean &quot;time without end&quot; either (but that's another story).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nonnus also mentions another entity named Khronos [Chronus, &quot;Time&quot;], who is often conflated/confounded with the Titan Kronos (such as in Cicero's *De natura deorum*). Aaron Atsma, on his website [The Theoi Project](http://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Khronos.html), identifies Khronos with Aion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The manner in which Khaos engendered his/her/its offspring is not explained but it should be safe to assume that it is not quite unlike how Gaia [Earth] and Nyx [Night] produced a few different broods of offspring &quot;without the assistance of male seed.&quot; The idea, right or wrong, might be, as with modern concepts like the Big Bang theory, that the universe began in an extremely energetic and &quot;pregnant&quot; state, almost like whatever was there at first could not help but produce numerous lifeforms in order to exert or exercise its energies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the other hand, however, the Khaos passage in Hesiod's *Theogony* has been interpreted by some, like Atsma, to be saying, not that Khaos gave birth to the first entities, rather that Khaos just happened to be the very first entity to exist (at least in *this* universe) and then others, such as Nyx and Gaia, also emerged of the same nothingness quite independently of Khaos sometime afterwards.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Roman writer Hyginus offers his own theogony in which he says that Chaos was produced by Caligine, &quot;Fog&quot; [i.e. mists of darkness]. To him, so it would seem, Chaos is male and Caligine is female. The two get married and together become the parents of Erebus (Darkness) and Nox (&quot;Night,&quot; the Roman Nyx). Erebus and Nox then become the parents of Æther (Aether) and Diēs (&quot;Day[time],&quot; the Roman Hemera). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Æther and Diēs then become the parents of Cælus (&quot;Sky,&quot; whom the Greeks called Ouranos) and Terra (&quot;Earth,&quot; the Roman Gaia). Cælus and Terra also get married and their offspring correspond by and large to the Greek version of their story, the main group being the Titans, who will then give rise to the Olympians. One notable deviation is that Æther also consorts with his own daughter Terra, and the first of their children is Tartarus, the Underworld Abyss.          " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="14020" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3531" RevisionGUID="042a9b67-4ff1-4390-beb4-3f2ddc55bfb9" CreationDate="2018-03-15T16:09:59.947" UserId="4639" Text="It shows up quite a lot in depictions, but finding good evidence for it in Egyptian and Mesopotamian mythology, etc is hard. It does appear to be in the Book of Genesis however." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="14021" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3531" RevisionGUID="042a9b67-4ff1-4390-beb4-3f2ddc55bfb9" CreationDate="2018-03-15T16:09:59.947" UserId="4639" Text="Did the inhabitants of the ANE/Mediterranean believe in an ocean in the sky?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="14022" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3531" RevisionGUID="042a9b67-4ff1-4390-beb4-3f2ddc55bfb9" CreationDate="2018-03-15T16:09:59.947" UserId="4639" Text="|greek|egyptian|mesopotamia|bible|babylonian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="14023" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3532" RevisionGUID="3fb3e7c8-bfa2-4363-96b7-645c62ad6cd3" CreationDate="2018-03-15T20:38:29.560" UserId="4852" Text="I can't answer the part on who makes it, but what it *could be*, might help with the question.  But I'll take a guess it's connected with Dionysus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Salt**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is some who believe nectar and ambrosia are referred to interchangeably, with one being the drink the other the food or reversed.  Stated here, the word *nectar* may have come from the Egyptian *natron*, which is a salt substance: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; inserted through the nostrils and into the body as a way to preserve&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eternal life in the Egyptian tradition - [John Lundwall][1] - referencing R. Drew Griffith's book *Mummy Wheat*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, in Lundwall's article, he mentions Greek wine.  At the time, they didn't have corks to preserve the wine.  If it's opened, it needs to be drank or else i would spoil.  One way to preserve it is by salting it, thus, prolonging it's life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Wine (itself)**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's also an interesting insight into Greek wine itself and how that may have affected one's state of mind.  The fermented drink perhaps was preceded by a barley drink as a kind of sacrament:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The notion that Eleusinian rites were celebrated with ergotized beer is entirely consistent with the notion that they had historical roots in Minoan Crete. In 1900 Sir Arthur Evans, excavating near the palace of Knossos, unearthed vessels adorned with ears of barley in relief. He therefore assumed that a kind of beer had preceded wine on Crete. Kerenyi believes that the small size of these vessels indicates they were used for a special kind of barley drink—-the visionary sacrament of the Eleusinian mysteries—in rites &quot;allegedly performed without secrecy at Knossos.&quot; - *Food of the Gods* by Terance McKenna&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the same book, Greek wine is described as perhaps being more complex, could be a mixture of other plants, and thus produce kind of hallucinatory effects.  The very title of the book seems to appropriate for the question here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Wine played a central part in later Greek culture, so much so that in classical times the disturbing figure of ecstatic Dionysus was converted into the hairy-footed and lascivious wine-god Bacchus, the lord of orgy and, now, drunken revelry carried on in the traditional dominator style. The fermentation of grains and fruits must have been generally known and can claim no discoverer or point of origin.&#xD;&#xA;Greek wines have always been somewhat puzzling to scholars. Their alcohol content could not have exceeded 14 percent since, when a fermentation process reaches this concentration, further formation of alcohol is inhibited. Yet Greek wines are sometimes described as requiring many dilutions before they could be drunk with comfort. This seems to suggest that Greek wines were more akin to extracts and tinctures of other plant essences than they were to wine as we know it today. This would have made them more chemically complex and therefore more intoxicating. The practice of adding resin to wine in Greece to make retsina may well hark back to times when other plants, perhaps belladonna or Datura, also went into wine. -*Food of the Gods* by Terance McKenna&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;**Conclusion:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ambrosia and nectar could have been the salt and the wine.  You have the preserving qualities of the *salt* (immortality), with the divine ecstatic feeling you get from the *wine* itself (a possible hallucinogen, as it's not akin to the wine we have today).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://cosmosandlogos.com/?p=756" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="14024" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3533" RevisionGUID="2a1aaecc-73da-4a62-8c1a-6f3a11008c1f" CreationDate="2018-03-16T00:46:39.783" UserId="4525" Text="So i found this big old book about ancient cultures and in it the typical offering on Crete was blood wine and milk. Mixed together in a big bowl. The book describes the mix as a symbol for drink of gods.&#xA;&#xA;It's interesting because I heard that Maasai tribe uses(or used) blood and milk from their lifestock as their main food source.&#xA;&#xA;But does this have to do anything with Greek culture? Did ancient greeks had a similar ritual? Could this be the nectar and ambrosia?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="14025" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3533" RevisionGUID="2a1aaecc-73da-4a62-8c1a-6f3a11008c1f" CreationDate="2018-03-16T00:46:39.783" UserId="4525" Text="Is the Crete offering the same as Greek?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="14026" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3533" RevisionGUID="2a1aaecc-73da-4a62-8c1a-6f3a11008c1f" CreationDate="2018-03-16T00:46:39.783" UserId="4525" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="14027" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3532" RevisionGUID="f58c1034-24f3-4921-87f0-f21e1944a2b9" CreationDate="2018-03-16T06:48:08.353" UserId="4852" Comment="spelling" Text="I can't answer the part on who makes it, but what it *could be*, might help with the question.  But I'll take a guess it's connected with Dionysus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Salt**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is some who believe nectar and ambrosia are referred to interchangeably, with one being the drink the other the food or reversed.  Stated here, the word *nectar* may have come from the Egyptian *natron*, which is a salt substance: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; inserted through the nostrils and into the body as a way to preserve&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eternal life in the Egyptian tradition - [John Lundwall][1] - referencing R. Drew Griffith's book *Mummy Wheat*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, in Lundwall's article, he mentions Greek wine.  At the time, they didn't have corks to preserve the wine.  If it's opened, it needs to be drank or else it would spoil.  A way to preserve it is by salting it, thus, prolonging it's life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Wine (itself)**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's also an interesting insight into Greek wine itself and how that may have affected one's state of mind.  The fermented drink perhaps was preceded by a barley drink as a kind of sacrament:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The notion that Eleusinian rites were celebrated with ergotized beer is entirely consistent with the notion that they had historical roots in Minoan Crete. In 1900 Sir Arthur Evans, excavating near the palace of Knossos, unearthed vessels adorned with ears of barley in relief. He therefore assumed that a kind of beer had preceded wine on Crete. Kerenyi believes that the small size of these vessels indicates they were used for a special kind of barley drink—-the visionary sacrament of the Eleusinian mysteries—in rites &quot;allegedly performed without secrecy at Knossos.&quot; - *Food of the Gods* by Terance McKenna&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the same book, Greek wine is described as perhaps being more complex, could be a mixture of other plants, and thus produce kind of hallucinatory effects.  The very title of the book seems to appropriate for the question here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Wine played a central part in later Greek culture, so much so that in classical times the disturbing figure of ecstatic Dionysus was converted into the hairy-footed and lascivious wine-god Bacchus, the lord of orgy and, now, drunken revelry carried on in the traditional dominator style. The fermentation of grains and fruits must have been generally known and can claim no discoverer or point of origin.&#xD;&#xA;Greek wines have always been somewhat puzzling to scholars. Their alcohol content could not have exceeded 14 percent since, when a fermentation process reaches this concentration, further formation of alcohol is inhibited. Yet Greek wines are sometimes described as requiring many dilutions before they could be drunk with comfort. This seems to suggest that Greek wines were more akin to extracts and tinctures of other plant essences than they were to wine as we know it today. This would have made them more chemically complex and therefore more intoxicating. The practice of adding resin to wine in Greece to make retsina may well hark back to times when other plants, perhaps belladonna or Datura, also went into wine. -*Food of the Gods* by Terance McKenna&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;**Conclusion:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ambrosia and nectar could have been the salt and the wine.  You have the preserving qualities of the *salt* (immortality), with the divine ecstatic feeling you get from the *wine* itself (a possible hallucinogen, as it's not akin to the wine we have today).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://cosmosandlogos.com/?p=756" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="14028" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3534" RevisionGUID="203b4ae0-373f-42f3-adc2-d971633af8bd" CreationDate="2018-03-16T10:18:45.573" UserId="201" Text="&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theoi.com/Ther/AixAmaltheia.html&quot;&gt;Amalthea&lt;/a&gt;, the divine goat who fostered Zeus until he grew up and could take revenge on his father Cronos, fed the god on her milk. In some stories this is called ambrosia; in other myths, she made ambrosia from her horns (which is where we get the modern image of the Horn of Plenty, or *Cornucopia*, used around harvest time).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(I can't find any primary sources citing the &quot;ambrosia from horn&quot; story, just repetitions of &quot;other stories said,&quot; but I know I've seen it often.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;from Theoi:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;AMALTHEIA (Amaltheia). The nurse of the infant Zeus after his birth in Crete. The ancients themselves appear to have been as uncertain about the etymology of the name as about the real nature of Amaltheia. Hesychius derives it from the verb amaltheuein, to nourish or to enrich ; others from amalthaktos, i. c. firm or hard; and others again from amalê and theia, according to which it would signify the divine goat, or the tender goddess. The common derivation is from amelgein, to milk or suck. According to some traditions Amaltheia is the goat who suckled the infant Jove (Hygin. Poet. Astr. ii. 13; Arat. Phaen. 163; Callim. Hymn. in Jov. 49), and who was afterwards rewarded for this service by being placed among the stars. (Comp. Apollod. i. 1. § 6.) According to another set of traditions Amaltheia was a nymph, and daughter of Oceanus, Helios, Haemonius, or of the Cretan king Melisseus (Schol. ad Hom. II. xxi. 194; Eratosth. Catast. 13; Apollod. ii. 7. § 5; Lactant. Instit. i. 22; Hygin. l. c., and Fab. 139, where he calls the nymph Adamanteia),and is said to have fed Zeus with the milk of a goat. When this goat once broke off one of her horns, the nymph Amaltheia filled it with fresh herbs and fruit and gave it to Zeus, who transplaced it together with the goat among the stars. (Ovid, Fast. v. 115, &amp;c.) According to other accounts Zeus himself broke off one of the horns of the goat Amaltheia, gave it to the daughters of Melisseus, and endowed it with such powers that whenever the possessor wished, it would instantaneously become filled with whatever might be desired. (Apollod. l. c.; Schol. ad Callim. l. c.)&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="14029" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2735" RevisionGUID="47c1eedb-8bd4-44d2-81b4-5e3f9b012478" CreationDate="2018-03-16T20:51:36.280" UserId="2774" Comment="Links, corrections, type add biblo and sito" Text="Sobek is a god that has been worshipped throughout all the Egyptian, from the Old Kingdom up to the Ptolemy time. His name in Egyptian is [SBK][1] [notice the hieroglyphs S (reed) + B (foot) + K (basket) + determinative crocodile (optional) + God sign], it is not known the origin. let's also say the term ruler in old Egyptian was written crocodile crocodile falcon[ \[ity][2] in old egyptian] making relatively clear that Sobek is not a second zone god, it is a direct embodiment of the power of the pharaoh as Horus. Let's see what the Egyptian said:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Old Kingdom&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;The Old Kingdom is the time of the Pyramids (forget once and for all those Hollywoodian movies depicting Ramses building Pyramids with tons of slaves). The Pyramid Texts are a series of incantations found in the pyramids, in hieroglyphs you can find on the internet some translations, and even hiero yphs, if you can decipher them [the institute of Chicago provides a whole bunch of them]. Here are some texts:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tomb of unis/Unas, 212: Unis has looked at you like Horus looks at&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Isis, Unis has looked at you like Kas-Assigner looks at Selket, Unis&#xD;&#xA;&gt; has looked at you like Sobek looks at Neith, Unis has looked at you&#xD;&#xA;&gt; like Seth looks at the two reconciled gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So clearly Neith is linked as Sobek mother.  Later:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tomb of Unis 222: Unis has come here in advance of the flood’s&#xD;&#xA;&gt; immersion: Unis is Sobek, green of plumage, 86 with alert face and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; raised fore, the splashing one who came from the thigh and tail of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; great goddess in the sunlight.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sobek is green of plumage (An obvious reference to the fat crocodile are green and to the Nile fertile covered with vegetation [plumage]). note that green is Egyptian is wAD or wadj, which is used also for vigorous, valiant, energetic, etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tomb of unis 222 Unis has appeared as Sobek, Neith’s son. Unis will eat with his mouth,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Unis will urinate and Unis will copulate with his penis. Unis is lord&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of semen, who takes women from their husbands to the place Unis likes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; according to his heart’s fancy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here we see once again Sobek referred quite clearly as Neith's son and linked with fertility (male one) and who takes women from their husbands. Which is so clearly an attribute of Sobek. Here is another Sobek thing:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tomb of Pepi 478: My father has inherited from Horus as Horus in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Seal-ring, Seth in the Ennead, Sobek in [Shedit].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So Sobek is not from the Ennead but related to Shedit. What is Shedit? Shedit or Shedet is also called Faiyum or in Greek Krokodilopolis or in Roman Arsinoe, it is and still is an Egyptian city.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tomb of Pepi 523: His face is that of a jackal, his middle is that of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Qebehut: he will give judgment as Sobek in Shedit and as Anubis in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Takhbit&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Takhbit is a site associated with Seth, we don't know where it was situated.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;So Sobek is known during the old Kingdom, obviously as the son of Neith, linked to the crocodiles, the vegetation, the marsh, the semen, the fertility. He is NOT at all from the Enead. And we can clearly see is nature as quite sexual (consider he takes the wife out of the husband...) and not cool... As the crocodile btw.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Middle Kingdom&#xD;&#xA;--------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Middle Kingdom is arguably less known by people. No more pyramids, and not yet the sumptuous building from the New Kingdom... We have lots of texts written in sarcophagus known as &quot;Coffin Texts&quot;. Those texts are based on the Pyramid Texts and were written inside the sarcophagus, on urns, tombs walls, masks, and as time goes by on various papyrus [papyri for snobs].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Spells 991: To become Sobek. I am the seed which issued from the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; encircling wrapping.  I am he who broke the teeth of him who cut away&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the iron. I am the Lord of strength and might who took&#xD;&#xA;&gt; crocodile-shape. I am the Lord of wrong who lives on woe. I am that crocodile whose tongue was cut out because of the mutilation of Osiris. I am he who puts fear whom the Ennead fear. I am that god who rises in the East and sets in the West, to whom the Niles are given. I am that god whom the eight row. I am Sobek, the rebel who is among you[the gods]; you cannot do anything against me, you spirits or you dead, for I have taken possession of the sky and have taken possession of the earth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;During the Middle Kingdom Sobek will become a fairly important god (that is when Krokodilopolis is founded after all), specifically during Amenhamat 3, and by the way, the first attested female Pharaoh is Sobekneferu (see the Sobek). This spell is quite interesting (to say the least). just see that Sobek is clearly referred to not being a member of the Ennead. Not only that but &quot;the 8 row for him&quot;, they 8 are the Ogdoad. So we clearly are confronted to a pretty powerful god, depicted as a rebel among the god and fairly over both the &quot;oads&quot;. So we can put Sobek in the place of Ouranous. Old god of immense power and technically a primordial god.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Another interesting spell is the 158 where Sobek is plunging in the Nile to retrieve Horus's severed hand:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ra said: &quot;This son of Isis is injured by reason of what his  mother&#xD;&#xA;&gt; herself has done to him; would that we might fetch Sobek from the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; back of the waters, that he may fish them out and so that his mother&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Isis may cause them to grow (again) in their proper place&quot;. And Sobek&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from the back of the waters said: &quot;I have fished and I have sought;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they slipped from  my hand upon the banks of the waters, but I fished&#xD;&#xA;&gt; them up in the end with a  fish-trap&quot;, that is how the fish-trap came&#xD;&#xA;&gt; into being.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is where you see originated Sobek-Horus a pretty important deity during Middle Kingdom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;New Kingdom&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;the final time of Egypt (Ramses was from this time, and no pyramids, no Hollywood), the new Kingdom is where Egypt will be at his apogee, most known Pharoah (Seti, Ram(es)ses, Hatchepsut) are from that time. One founding book is the conflict [contending] between Horus and Seth. In the passage I will cite, Re is writing a letter [Toth is the one writing Re cannot write] to Neith.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; To wit: your humble servant, spend all night on Osiris's behalf&#xD;&#xA;&gt; consulting the Two Lands every day, while Sobek endures forever.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Let's translate this passage: Ra, the sun, is vanishing every day, so he cannot see what is happening constantly, contrary to both Neith, the sky, and Sobek his son, the Nile. Hence he is asking Neith advice. Which shows also the quite complex relationship between Egyptian gods.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;During the New Kingdom, a new entity Sobek-Ra (clearly inspired by Sobek-Horus) will come. Most illustration you find with Sobek and the headdress as a sun is from the late New Kingdom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Set and Sobek&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;Some authors mention that Sobek is the son of Set, just because of the close relationship between Set and the crocodiles[ \[msh][3] in old Egyptian, written with an owl (m), a lock (s), a rope (h), then a crocodile]. Notice that Sobek both in Middle and old Kingdom is fairly highly revered and one as to see that Sobek represent the strength of the crocodile when Set is destructive nature. it is also evident that during the Old kingdom Sobek was less reliable, without being linked with Set.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;conclusion&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sobek is an incredibly old deity worshipped until the very last end of Egypt (around 300 CE). It becomes central during Middle Kingdom in LOTS of stories (I skipped a lot of them to keep things simple). He is traditionally associated with Horus, Amon or Ra. He is not a part of the &quot;oads&quot; but generally over them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Bibliography&#xD;&#xA;------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Ancient Egyptian Pyramid Texts][4], by J.P. Allen&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[Same][5] but by R.O Faulkner&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[The Coffin Text][6] Faulkner&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[The book of the dead][7] Faulkner (Do yourself a big favor: Forget the one of Budge...)&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sitography&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;[Hierogl][8] An handy hieroglyphic dictionary. Unfortunately in French.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sovk_(Suchus,_Cronos,_Satrune),_N372.2.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.hierogl.ch/hiero/ity&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.hierogl.ch/hiero/msH&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Egyptian-Pyramid-Texts-Writings/dp/1628371145&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Egyptian-Pyramid-Texts-1910/dp/1162748656/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1521232494&amp;sr=1-5&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Egyptian-Coffin-Phillips-Classical/dp/0856687545&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Egyptian-British-Museum-Press/dp/B00NN6R9IE/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1521232494&amp;sr=1-2&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.hierogl.ch/hiero/Accueil" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="14030" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2619" RevisionGUID="c104c961-8041-4960-821e-9564bf08b57e" CreationDate="2018-03-16T21:04:48.333" UserId="2774" Comment="Typos + bibliogrpahy" Text="Understanding the ancient world is quite a job, just remark that: Greeks and Romans are the easiest to understand when we start to watch the other civilizations (Egyptians, Mesopotamians, Persians) we are definitely in alien territory, so keep that in mind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greeks were naming themselves &quot;Hellen&quot; and those who were not speaking Greek &quot;Barbarians&quot;, so yes, Persians were barbarians and Egyptians were barbarians. This is something you find in Egypt, &quot;the world&quot; and the rest of the world. Persians were making a huge difference between Persians  / Medes and other civilization. Sumerians were calling themselves &quot;the black people&quot;, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herodotus 2.50&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;The good old Herodotus in chapter 2.50 of the History tells us about the Egyptian origin of the Greek gods, this passage has to be cited completely:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; σχεδὸν δὲ καὶ πάντων τὰ οὐνόματα τῶν θεῶν ἐξ Αἰγύπτου ἐλήλυθε ἐς τὴν&#xD;&#xA;Ἑλλάδα. διότι μὲν γὰρ ἐκ τῶν βαρβάρων ἥκει, πυνθανόμενος οὕτω εὑρίσκω ἐόν· δοκέω δ᾽ ὦν μάλιστα ἀπ᾽ Αἰγύπτου ἀπῖχθαι. ὅτι γὰρ δὴ μὴ Ποσειδέωνος καὶ Διοσκούρων, ὡς καὶ πρότερόν μοι ταῦτα εἴρηται, καὶ Ἥρης καὶ Ἱστίης καὶ Θέμιος καὶ Χαρίτων καὶ Νηρηίδων, τῶν ἄλλων θεῶν Αἰγυπτίοισι αἰεί κοτε τὰ οὐνόματα ἐστὶ ἐν τῇ χώρῃ. λέγω δὲ τὰ λέγουσι αὐτοὶ Αἰγύπτιοι. τῶν δὲ οὔ φασι θεῶν γινώσκειν τὰ οὐνόματα, οὗτοι δέ μοι δοκέουσι ὑπὸ Πελασγῶν ὀνομασθῆναι, πλὴν Ποσειδέωνος· τοῦτον δὲ τὸν θεὸν παρὰ Λιβύων ἐπύθοντο· οὐδαμοὶ γὰρ ἀπ᾽ ἀρχῆς Ποσειδέωνος οὔνομα ἔκτηνται εἰ μὴ Λίβυες καὶ τιμῶσι τὸν θεὸν τοῦτον αἰεί. νομίζουσι δ᾽ ὦν Αἰγύπτιοι οὐδ᾽ ἥρωσι οὐδέν.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;English translation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; By making inquiries, I discovered that the names of the gods came to Hellas from barbarians; and I myself concluded that they derive specifically from Egypt, for [1] the names of the gods have been known in Egypt since the earliest times, except for Poseidon and the Dioskouroi (as I mentioned earlier); as well as Hera, Histia, Themis, the Graces, and the Nereids. Here I am reporting what the Egyptians themselves say, and this leads me to believe that the gods whose names they deny knowing were named by the Pelasgiansb- all except for Poseidon, since this god was introduced to the Hellenes by the Libyans, who alone, among all peoples, have always honored him and have possessed the name of Poseidon from the beginning. And as to the Dioskouroi, the Egyptians do not believe in heroes at all.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice also, and this is constant in Herodotus, that almost all gods of other countries are given Greek names, here, for example, the Libyans are related to Poseidon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some other points here showing the relation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2.41 Their statue of Isis has a woman's body with horns like a cow's, just as the Hellenes portray Io&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2.42 And since the Egyptians call Zeus by the name of Ammon, it seems to me that the Ammonians also received their name from the appellation of this god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2.43 Moreover, the fact is that the Egyptians did not take the &quot;name of Herakles&quot; from the Hellenes, but that the Hellenes (that is, those Hellenes who established the name of Herakles as the son of Amphitryona) took it from the Egyptians; this can be demonstrated by many proofs, especially by the fact that both parents of Herakles, Amphitryon and Alkmene, were of Egyptian descent&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;NB: Herakles parents are descendants of Perseus which was a descendant of Aigyptos [Αἴγυπτος = Egypt in Greek].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Foreign Greek god&#xD;&#xA;-----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We have a very clear example of a Thracian Goddess (Bendis) included in the Athenian pantheon during the war of the Peloponnese:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here are Richard Farnell notes of her:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Thracian Bendis was probably in origin and character the same as the great mother of Phrygia and was worshipped (...) with the same orgiastic rites(...) we also hear of Bendis as the great goddess of Lemnos to whom human victims were offered... The reasons for this association of the greek maidenly goddess with the Bendis-Hekate-Brimo the patroness of savage magic and terrifying superstition may have been some external resemblance of attributes, but also probably, some consanguinity of character. Like Artemis, the Thracian divinity was supposed to ride on bulls; like Artemis, she was a mighty huntress, though her weapon was not the bow, but the spear in each hand.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So basically we see that Bendis was included in the Athenian pantheon of Gods roughly for political reasons namely the alliance with the Thracians. As a Goddess of hunt, dark ritual magic and bulls, Bendis was linked naturally to Hecate - Artemis (note the theme of the moon). Notice that what Plato is talking about, the fact the Athenians were riding with torches in their hands is purely an Artemis ritual.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can read more on that [here][1] where I gave a more complete historical account.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;External mythological elements&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I can also add that Greeks did happily borrow elements in other mythologies, especially in Mesopotamia.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is, for example, Odysseus killing the Cyclops, I meant Nergal killing Igidalu or Igidaru:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSTEQcgA_i_A6BsBgdcuYoz22fEjcbl_QMOE7Unfxraglfkow68iQ][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The borrowing of the Greeks there is quite extensive... Here is, for example, the start of the Hittite song of Kummarbi, that you can parallel with Hesiod's Theogony:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For a mere nine years Alalu was king in heaven. In the ninth year, Anu gave battle against Alalu and he defeated Alalu. He (Alalu) fled before him and went down to the Dark Earth. Down he went to the Dark Earth, and Anu took his seat on his throne. Anu was sitting on his throne, and weighty Kumarbi was giving him drink. (Kumarbi) was bowing down at his feet and placing in his hand the drinking cups.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For a mere nine years Anu remained king in heaven. In the ninth year, Anu gave battle against Kumarbi. Kumarbi, Alalu's offspring, gave battle against Anu. Anu can no longer withstand Kumarbi's eyes. Anu wriggled loose from his (Kumarbi's) hands and fled. He set out for the sky. (But) Kumarbi rushed after him, seized Anu by the feet/legs, and dragged him down from the sky.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Kumarbi) bit his (Anu's) loins, and his &quot;manhood&quot; united with Kumarbi's insides like bronze (results from the union of copper and tin). When Kumarbi had swallowed the &quot;manhood&quot; of Anu, he rejoiced and laughed out loud.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ceremony over the Hellespont&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a ceremony we find in Herodotus VII-54, this ceremony is done by the Achaemenid king Xerxes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then, as the sun was rising, Xerxes poured a libation from a golden cup into the sea as he faced the sun and prayed that nothing unexpected would happen to stop him from subjugating Europe before he reached the very ends of that land. After his prayer, he threw the libation cup into the Hellespont, along with a golden mixing bowl and a Persian sword, which they call an akinakes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is now the ceremony described by Arrian in his Anabasis (VI-19); at the mouth of the Indus Alexander the Great is doing this ceremony:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then he sacrificed bulls to Poseidon, and cast them into the sea, and after the sacrifice poured a libation and cast into the sea the cup made of gold and golden bowls as thankofferings, praying that Poseidon would safely convoy the naval force he intended to dispatch with Nearchus towards the Persian Gulf.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apart from the minor differences (the presence of a bull and Poseidon specifically named), the ceremony is exactly the same. They both filled a golden cup, pray and threw the whole content of the cup into the &quot;sea&quot;... Alexander being Greek and Xerxes Persian something is weird.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice more amusingly that Alexander will do this over the Hellespont (I.11):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Alexander sacrificed a bull to Poseidon and the Nereids in the midst of the Hellespont strait, and pour[ed] into the sea a drink offering from a golden bowl.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Again same exact ceremony, which tickles to believe Xerxes is doing a Greek ceremony at the Persian sauce. Xerxes is turning toward the sun (basically Ahura-Mazda, the Persian god) during the ceremony.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We can find a clear explanation in Herodotus VII-54:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Having taken complete possession of Athens, Xerxes now sent off a mounted messenger to Artabanos to announce his present success, and the day after sending the messenger, he summoned the exiles from Athens who had accompanied him and ordered them to climb to the Acropolis and sacrifice according to their tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pretty obviously in Xerxes army there was Greeks (don't mention that to Zak Snyder pretty please) and here obviously he rewarded them by having them performing a Greek ceremony inside the Acropolis. Which lead to believe when we compare Xerxes ceremony and Alexander ceremony that Xerxes ceremony over the Hellespont was Greek, not Persian (Greek sauce Persian for the obvious presence of Ahura-Mazda).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We can confirm that when we see Cyrus the Great (Cyrus -&gt; Cambyses -&gt; Darius -&gt; Xerxes) restoring the ceremony after conquering Babylon, Cambyses respecting the Gods of Egypt (don't read Herodotus there read the Egyptians).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Evolution of Greek myths&#xD;&#xA;------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did the Greek mythology evolved through time? Indeed, I invite you to read my fairly detailed description of Medusa's evolution from [Homeric time up to Ray Harryhausen][4].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Small conclusion&#xD;&#xA;----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does every of that mean that the Antique world is open-minded and the Christians world made of intolerants? That would be naive (very). One has to see that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The Antique civilizations communicated without a doubt, we find tracks of Egyptian stories in India.&#xD;&#xA; - Most of the so-called openness in term of religion is hidden by the fact almost every time it is open for political reasons. That is well illustrated by Xerxes Greek ceremony, Cyrus &quot;restoring&quot; the old Babylonian religion, the goddess Bendis suddenly entering the Athenian pantheon. One can illustrate the drawback here. Herodotus mentions that Cyrus' son, Cambyses is &quot;mad&quot; while his other Smerdis is replaced by a &quot;false copy&quot;. A close examination of Egyptian source makes clear that Cambyses followed the general &quot;Achaemenid trend&quot; of keeping the local religion. And all the Smerdis affair is highly smelly. So it seems Darius probably usurped the throne and this is the true origin of this &quot;degenerated Cyrus' sons&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note also that when we are speaking of the ancient world we are speaking about an incredibly small amount of people. 10/15% among the Greeks was free people. But now let's discuss the rest, made of the women, the slaves, the Lacedaemonians helots, the 2nd/3rd/4th sons (notice that this only the first male heir persisted during the whole Middle Age and the Renaissance), etc. Those had no right at all. When you were part of the 10/15% life was awesome, when not... That is where you have to moderate seriously the so-called openness you can find. It is generally fairly restricted to highly political reasons. When there were no political reasons, Greeks/Mesopotamians/Egyptians/Persians are infamous to slaughter every man, enslave every woman and burn down every local cult temples. And by the way, that is not the question here, but Christians have shown high openness as well for the same political reasons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Bibliography&#xD;&#xA;------------&#xD;&#xA;[The Landmark Herodotus][5] probably the best edition in any language so far of the Histories&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[The cult of the Greek States][6] Richard Farnell, there are several volumes!&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[Hittite myths][7] by Harry Hoffner, the texts are difficult to read due to the bad state of the Hittite tablets, I cleaned up the text&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2496/are-artemis-and-bendis-the-same/2497#2497&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/EdKWB.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/qJNKe.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1817/could-you-look-at-medusas-head-through-a-distorted-surface/1830#1830&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.amazon.com/Landmark-Herodotus-Histories-Robert-Strassler/dp/1400031141&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.amazon.fr/Cults-States-Farnell-Richard-1856-1934/dp/1314476645/ref=sr_1_5?s=english-books&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1521234006&amp;sr=1-5&amp;dpID=51kV8LXvXHL&amp;preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&amp;dpSrc=srch&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.amazon.com/Hittite-Myths-Second-Harry-Hoffner/dp/0788504886" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="14031" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2069" RevisionGUID="c33b5119-2e9a-46fe-a488-ebe0f6fa7be8" CreationDate="2018-03-16T21:06:39.930" UserId="2774" Comment="typos" Text="Mercury and Hermes are basically the same. The Roman Mercury is simply the Greek Hermes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now Toth. Toth is a pure Egyptian God. In 300 BC Egypt was conquered by Alexander the Great and one of his generals, Ptolemy became the new Pharaoh forming the Ptolemy/Lagid dynasty (the last Pharaohs). At this time Greeks would collect Egyptian Gods, give them more or less Greek names (that the name we still use today Isis/Osiris/Anubis/Toth those are the Greek names). They would also identify the Egyptian Gods and put them together with Greek Gods. Note that Herodotus did basically that some 200 years before. Toth (Egyptian dhwty, Egyptian was a Semitic language and as such did not write the vowels, we are so pretty uncertain how Egyptian god's name was pronounced) has so been paralleled with Hermes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, in Early Antiquity you have 3 great civilizations all centered around rivers: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Egyptian around the Nile&#xD;&#xA; - Mesopotamian around the Euphrates&#xD;&#xA; - Indian around the Indus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no doubt those civilizations were in contact and they mixed more or then their beliefs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Greeks are originally probably from a northern part of Europe. They so inherited that with obvious contact with Mesopotamia (Phoenician exactly).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Considering they later identify Toth with Hermes, in what extend Hermes could have originated in Toth...probably not the case. Herodotus mentioned numerous time he was believing Greek Gods was coming from Egyptian one (proving that a very smart guy in 500BC was seeing some similitudes), and he was certainly very wrong.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odin is really coming from a WAY later tradition. On the same extent we have Roman writers mentioning Celtic/Norse believes but giving them Roman names (Jupiter/Odin, Herakles/Thor, etc.). Considering the attributes of Odin, he can be attached to Jupiter, Hades or Hermes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can find here and there strange similitudes showing some concordances. Thor is a thunder god with the magical hammer Mjolnir. The Indian Indra is a thunder god with a magical tunderbolt Vajra. The Greek Zeus is a thunder god with a thunderbolt. Their oldest known common ancestor is the Hurrian Teshub wielding the magical axe and the magical thunderbolt. All of them are confronted to snakish/dragonish monsters (Jormungandr, Vritra, Typhoeus, Ullikumi). But who was the first? And besides that, myths are still mostly different in their executions, way of writing and such.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That is why that is NOT an easy question. No doubt that Hermes is Mercury. For Toth and Odin... Far from that easy. You just have to remind that the antique world was different than ours. Reading was no so common, and even when you could, languages was totally different. Travel opportunities was far from that common. It is quite hard to judge Antique knowledge from the very partial things we know (Hell what we know of the 5th Dynasty of Egyptian Pharaohs...), with our common huge Linga Franca, the Internet and our vast world library.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Let's mention ONE last thing: Most little bit cultivated people will feel somehow uncomfortable trying to know who is the first. First, because it is a damn hard question. Second, there is a little &quot;sulfuric&quot; smell there. There is some people out there loving to draw quick and huge conclusions of dramatic importance on things they have no clue what they are talking about. And they can be sweet talkers. And soon you are confronted to race/superiority/monomyth/Atlantid/Extraterrestrials.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So great question, dense question. But very hard to give a clear definitive answer. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="14032" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2127" RevisionGUID="386b603d-da98-4b42-a7b4-66d7bf61b0d1" CreationDate="2018-03-16T21:16:11.937" UserId="2774" Comment="Some typos + bibliography" Text="That story appears in one of the most beautifully written stories that can exist. In Herodotus Histories, chapter 1.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Athenian lawgiver Solon is visiting the richest man in the world&#xD;&#xA;the Lydian Croesus and Croesus want to impress Solon and show him how&#xD;&#xA; rich and wealthy he is and after asks him who is the happiest&#xD;&#xA;man:&lt;BR&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; My Athenian guest, [...] I really can't resist asking you now&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whether you have yet seen anyone who surpass all others in happiness&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and prosperity?&quot;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Solon tries to give a very polite answer to Croesus telling him the story of the Athenian Tellus who died bravely defending Athens and was honored for that. Obviously, Croesus insists a little bit asking for a second person and here is your story in its full glory.&lt;BR&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cleobis and Biton. The were Argives [inhabitant of Argos] who had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; enough resources to live on and in addition were physically fit, as in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shown by the fact that they both won prizes at athletics contests, as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; well as by this story told about them.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The Argives were having a festival for Hera, and their mother had to be taken to the shrine in a wagon, but the oxen were not back from the fields in time to pull it. [...] The young men put themselves under the yoke and themselves hauled the wagon.[...] their mother was simply elated by her sons' feat and by all the praise [from the Argives' crowd]. She stood before the statue of the goddess and said a prayer for [them]: that since they had shown her such great honour let the goddess grant them the best thing human being could have. [After the fest], the young men fell asleep in tat very sanctuary and never awake again. [showing clearly that it is better for a human being to be dead than to be alive]&lt;BR&lt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Translation from the [Landmark Herodotus][1].&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Solon will explain then to him than no one can be called happy until his life is over. Pissed off Croesus sent Solon away. Later on, he will defy the Persian Lord Cyrius the Great and be beaten. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Plutarch's Parallel lives&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You find this story retold in Plutarch's Parallel lives in the Solon chapter (his roman par is Publius Valerius, Poplicola):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Yes, Cleobis and Biton, who were loving brothers, and  extremely&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dutiful sons to their mother, and, when the oxen delayed  her,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; harnessed themselves to the wagon, and drew her to Juno's  temple, her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; neighbors all calling her happy, and she herself  rejoicing; then,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after sacrificing and feasting, they went to rest, and  never rose&#xD;&#xA;&gt; again, but died in the midst of their honor a painless and  tranquil&#xD;&#xA;&gt; death&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't think you find that story in Ovid.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Bibliography&#xD;&#xA;------------&#xD;&#xA;[The landmark Herodotus][2]&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[Parallel lives][3] by Plutarch I have no advice in English edition. Unfortunately, I read other languages with so good translations...&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[Metamorphoses][4] by Ovid&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.amazon.com/Landmark-Herodotus-Histories-Robert-Strassler/dp/1400031141&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.amazon.fr/Landmark-Herodotus-Histories-Robert-Strassler/dp/1400031141/ref=sr_1_1?s=english-books&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1521234516&amp;sr=1-1&amp;keywords=landmark%20herodotus&amp;dpID=61-gPtNif5L&amp;preST=_SX218_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&amp;dpSrc=srch&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.amazon.fr/Parallel-Lives-English-Plutarch-ebook/dp/B07883P5Z3/ref=sr_1_6?s=english-books&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1521234590&amp;sr=1-6&amp;keywords=plutarch%20parallel&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.amazon.fr/Metamorphoses-Ovid/dp/1536995231/ref=sr_1_3?s=english-books&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1521234924&amp;sr=1-3&amp;keywords=ovid%20metamorphoses&amp;dpID=51-avefJkjL&amp;preST=_SX218_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&amp;dpSrc=srch" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="14033" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1841" RevisionGUID="622d0b59-ec36-47e9-a1c7-3d8ecc2fe521" CreationDate="2018-03-16T21:29:03.437" UserId="2774" Comment="some typos and bilbiography" Text="If what you want is a family tree &quot;per se&quot;, you can find a good dozen of them for free on the internet via your old pal Google. Here is a very solid one: [![http://www.truthcontrol.com/files/truthcontrol/images/7024.png][1]][1] &lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Notice this tree (as a lot you will find) is a Mesopotamian one, and especially Babylonian. The presence of Tiamat and Marduk clearly signs the Babylonian nature. The fact Inanna is the daughter of Nanna and not Enki is another clear proof. A pure Sumerian tree would begin with An (the Anu of the Babylonian).&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;If you need some sources.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;First imagine that anything centered on old Mesopotamia is vastly partially known, because it is OLD, terribly OLD, and what is written, was written on tablets most of them quite broken, or not so readable. And a lot of what we know of the Sumerian people is coming from the Babylonian or even later Hittites... if not in the Holy Bible!&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;As an example, one of the most notable pieces known and renown from Mesopotamia is The Epic of Gilgamesh which in its most well acknowledge format is Babylonian. The main source tablets we have are from the Assyrian city of Nineveh dating from king Assurbanipal. That demonstrates that most of out tablets source are either coming from unknown place or known and was a copy of older text (The Assyrians coming after the Babylonians). On a side note, the Sumerian language was used as latin and greek in paste time, not the linga franca but much more the intellectual language. That also makes difficult to know what is and what is not from Sumer.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The definitive Sumerian source is Samuel Noah Kramer, the best myth introduction is that [book][2] (freely available on sacred text): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    Sumerian Mythology: &#xD;&#xA;    Study of Spiritual and Literary Achievement in the Third Millennium B.C.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can also check:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    The Sumerians, their history, cultures and character&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is there a lot of fairly solid translations of major mythes/stories, as well as a great introduction to the Sumerian culture. this is by far a better book than the former but it is not free. And quite dated (As Sumerian mythology is).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Bibliography&#xD;&#xA;------------&#xD;&#xA;[the Litterature of Ancient Sumer][3] by Jeremy Black, most texts are in the ETCL&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[The World’s Oldest Literature][4] A fairly good (but ridiculously over priced) book&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[Epic of the Sumerian kings: the matter of Aratta][5] by Herman Vanstiphout, a solid tranlation of one of the 2 big cycle of stories, the other one being for Gilgamesh&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[Ancient mesopotamia][6] by Leo Oppenheim, a fairly solid book on Mesopotamia in general&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**To avoid**:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[Inanna queen of heaven and earth][7] by Diane Wolkstein and (unfortunately) Samuel Kramer a modern soup of transreading with no connection at all with Inanna.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sitography&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/ TONS of good material, with decent translations, lots of texts, poetries, songs. REALLY a great source. Really less expensive that Hallo's book...&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MrDMX.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/sum/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Literature-Ancient-Sumer-Jeremy-Black/dp/0199263116&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.amazon.com/Worlds-Oldest-Literature-Belles-lettres-30-Aug-2009/dp/B012HUIY8K&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.amazon.com/Epics-Sumerian-Kings-Writings-Ancient/dp/1589830830/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1521235345&amp;sr=1-1&amp;keywords=the%20matter%20of%20aratta&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Mesopotamia-Civilization-Oppenheim-1977-09-15/dp/B012YTEFNW/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1521235503&amp;sr=1-2&amp;keywords=ancient%20mesopotamia%20leo&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.amazon.com/Inanna-Queen-Heaven-Earth-Stories/dp/0060908548" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="14034" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1958" RevisionGUID="2ac21c06-9585-4c03-981f-1aa122bf8000" CreationDate="2018-03-16T22:13:01.797" UserId="2774" Comment="Typo + some sumerian and akkadian" Text="Lilith in Mesopotamia&#xD;&#xA;--------------------&#xD;&#xA;First Lilith (Lilitu) is of Mesopotamian origin. She is a female &quot;demon&quot;/&quot;succubus&quot; (Consider I use here modern terms, Sumerian or Akkadian got no clue what those was). We find her in diverse stories most notable one is when she is coming to haunt Inanna's tree in Inanna and the Hullupu tree (We don't know what an Huluppu tree is).&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The years passed; five years, and then ten years.&lt;BR&gt; The tree grew thick,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But its bark did not split.&lt;BR&gt; Then the serpent who could not be charmed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Made it's nest in the roots of the huluppu-tree.&lt;BR&gt; The Anzu-bird set its&#xD;&#xA;&gt; young in the branches of the tree.&lt;BR&gt; And the dark maid Lilith built her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; home in the trunk.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note you find various versions and translations, but the idea is always the same. Lilith is vanquished by Gilgamesh there.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In the original text, the Huluppu tree is named halub[GISH-HA-LU-UB] or hulub[GISH-HU-LU-UB], Haluppu or Huluppu in Akkadian:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ubia gishdisham, halubdisham gishdisham&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Translation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; On thay day, a tree, a Huluppu tree, a tree&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lilith is ki-sikil-li-la-ke (female[kisikil] Lilake[demon]). Lilu in Akkadian in &quot;a demon&quot;, its female form is lilitu:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shabbabia kisikillilake, e imanibdu&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roughly:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In it, Lilith had built a house&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She is related with the death of newborn children and such bad things.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lilith in the Holy Bible&#xD;&#xA;------------------------&#xD;&#xA;First, there is not even one track of Lilith, per se, in the Holy Bible. The one of the Christians. That said the Hebraic version will clarify what the Bible says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; creatures that move along the ground.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 27 So God created mankind in his own image,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    in the image of God he created them;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    male and female he created them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is a well-known thing that here men and women are created from clay at the same time. BUT here the woman is created AFTER from a man's rib:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But for Adam[f] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the Lord God&#xD;&#xA;&gt; caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he took one of the man’s ribs[g] and then closed up the place with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib[h] he had taken&#xD;&#xA;&gt; out of the man, and he brought her to the man.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That is the version most people know. But the Bible is still quite unclear if only Eve was a part of a rib or all the females.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lilith for the Hebrews&#xD;&#xA;----------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the Hebraic books, Adam got a first wife, precisely Lilith (sometimes named Adamah), modeled out of clay. And they divorced. There are several traditions according to the reason of their separation. The most renowned (but well truly a joke) is that she wanted to be equal with Adam during sex. Which was not his taste, hence she was expelled from Paradise. This is from the Alpha Beta. (This is THE tradition you find everywhere.) Just here, The Alpha Beta (or Alphabet) 78 (Note this work is renown for being a gigantic satire):&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When God created the first man Adam alone, God said, “It is not good&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for man to be alone.” [So] God created a woman for him, from the earth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; like him, and called her Lilith. They [Adam and Lilith] promptly began&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to argue with each other: She said, “I will not lie below,” and he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; said, “I will not lie below, but above, since you are fit for being&#xD;&#xA;&gt; below and I for being above.” She said to him, “The two of us are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; equal, since we are both from the earth.” And they would not listen to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; each other. Since Lilith saw [how it was], she uttered God's ineffable&#xD;&#xA;&gt; name and flew away into the air. Adam stood in prayer before his Maker&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and said, “Master of the Universe, the woman you gave me fled from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; me!”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another from Zohar says that she was not Adam's first wife or just a concubine and she became over jealous when Eve was created.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; After the primeval light was hidden, a husk was created for the brain,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and that husk spread out and brought forth another husk which was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lilith. And when she emerged, she went up and went down towards the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; little faces, and wanted to attach herself to them and be shaped after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; them, and did not want to depart from them. But the Holy One, blessed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; be He, removed her from there and placed her down below.    When He&#xD;&#xA;&gt; created Adam, in order to perfect this world, as soon as Lilith saw&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eve affixed to the side of Adam, and saw in them the beauty of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Above, and saw their perfect image, she flew off from there and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wanted, as before to attach herself to the little faces.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The tradition also usually makes her the snake that charmed Eve coiled around the tree of Life (cf. Lilith in Sumer's myth stealing Inanna's tree).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Small comment&#xD;&#xA;=============&#xD;&#xA;As much as I dislike giving personal opinion on things, here it is difficult to a least resist commenting a little bit.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The alphabet is presenting a couple where the woman wants to do some &quot;cowgirl&quot; and the man refuse! And for that Lilith is giving pretty bad name to God and flee. You clearly see why the Christians do not care about that book! And it is obvious why the book is considered nonserious.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The Zohar story is slightly different. Here Lilith appears as a concubine of some sort and without being consulted on the matter, God creates a new woman. Let's face it, it is difficult to not understand Lilith's being seriously pissed off. Which also push me to notice the Zohar should be taken with high caution. &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lilith in Demonology&#xD;&#xA;--------------------&#xD;&#xA;Demonology also knows Lilith as one of the 4 queens of Hell with Na'amah, Agrat Ba'at Malhat, and Eischeth Zemium. Consider her as a wife/Consort of the ruler of Hell.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ruler can be Samaël, Asmodeus, Beelzebub, etc. And sometimes you see Lilith the Old as Samaël's devoted wife when you find a Lilith the Young in love with Asmodeus.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lilith for the feminists&#xD;&#xA;------------------------&#xD;&#xA;The feminists love Lilith. It is as I mentioned vastly renown that Lilith was Adam first wife carved from clay, as him, and wanted to be equal. Lilith is so for this behavior very famous among the feminists' aficionados. Lilith becoming an icon of the woman's liberty. Now it seems the feminists did not check the seriousness of their sources (or simply not checked them or worst) just because basing the men/women equality on such a book as the alphabet is... funny." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="14035" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3535" RevisionGUID="5a464925-c39a-4175-a4cc-c0b133ed69ae" CreationDate="2018-03-16T23:00:20.920" UserId="4878" Text="There are actually Japanese kitsune with 9 tails known as Kyubi no Kitsune. However, not all kitsune have 9. A Kitsune gains its tails about 1 per century, and only attains 9 (Kyu) after 1,000 years. These kitsune are much more powerful than the typical nogitsune/yako of common folklore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/九尾の狐#Japanese  - etymology&#xD;&#xA;https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsune  - about half way down the page it talks about Kyubi no Kitsune. &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="14036" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2639" RevisionGUID="7edc33ce-a46d-41e7-b301-66433242a7d0" CreationDate="2018-03-17T12:16:33.183" UserId="2774" Comment="check spelling, biblography, links" Text="Elder Scrolls Lore&#xD;&#xA;------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**This passage is for people wanting to know a little bit about Skyrim lore.**&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Skyrim is the 5th official game in the Elder Scrolls series (I do not count the other games and spin-off novels and such)&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The Elder Scrolls is situated in Tamriel in a typical Medieval fantasy setting (So you will find orcs, elves, and dwarves). Skyrim is a northern province. Its inhabitants, the Nords, are obviously using Viking as a reference. The Redguards are using the Arabic culture. The Imperials, Rome.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In the game, Skyrim the ancient God Alduin, The World Eater, a dragon of immense power is coming to Tamriel and precisely Skyrim to... destroy the world. He is helped by an army of immortal dragons he is raising. Unfortunately for Him a powerful warrior, the Dragonborn, a warrior who can absorb the souls of the dragons, thus killing them will rise against him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Answer&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You have one thing to see when talking about the Elder Scrolls in general: The mythology behind the Elder Scrolls is the Elder Scrolls. First and foremost this is what is followed and nothing else. That is to say that Skyrim is, yes, &quot;Norse&quot;, but &quot;Norse&quot;, is much more a general &quot;feeling&quot; than following &quot;Norse&quot; mythology.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;You have also to see that the Elder Scrolls are taping, vastly, in way more things than &quot;Norse&quot;. The Imperials are following the Roman empire, seated in a Medieval period. The werewolves are inspired by the modern representation of the modern beast; etc. &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;I will illustrate, here, how &quot;Norse&quot; will taint Skyrim:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In the opening sequence, on the cart, you meet a &quot;horse thief&quot; named &quot;[Lokir of Rorikstead][1]&quot;. Anyone knowing the Norse mythology will see an amusing reference to Loki, father of Sleipnir (Odin's horse) and god of deception (thievery).&#xD;&#xA; - During the companion quest you try to put back together the shattered mythical axe Wuuthrad, that is fairly clearly inspired by the shattered sword of Sigurd/Siegfried Gram.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note also that: Broken weapons are not especially Norse stuff (think about Narsil in the Lord of the Ring). I still do believe that both Lokir, and Wuuthrad are &quot;referencing&quot; Norse things more than anything else.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now regarding your specific question. Alduin is a legendary dragon. In term of myth, dragons, malevolent one, as Alduin, are omnipresent. Example: Tiamat, in Mesopotamia, or Apophis in Egypt. Notice both those dragons are as close reference to Alduin as the one I am giving you:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Niddhogr is a giant dragon that eats the root of the World tree Yggdrasill. Niddhogr is completely as malevolent as Alduin, both are god-like creatures. Both are trying to put an end to the world.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As everywhere in the Elder Scrolls, what matters to them is the &quot;Elder Scrolls' lore first and foremost. In the case of Skyrim, this lore is tainted all over with Norse mythology. But it is only a far taint (rightfully). You will not see Odin, Fricka or Valkyries entering the Elder Scrolls pantheon. so don't expect the Elder Scrolls lore to fit the Norse mythology. They just bring some &quot;Norse mythological elements&quot; to have this little Norse feeling in the game.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Bibliography&#xD;&#xA;------------&#xD;&#xA;[The Volsunga Saga][2] This is where Gram the shattered sword is found&#xD;&#xA;[Norse Mythology][3] by John Lindow&#xD;&#xA;[Poetic Edda][4] by Snorri Sturluson&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Lokir&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.amazon.fr/Volsunga-Saga-Greatest-Scandinavian-Epics/dp/1447460480/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1521288578&amp;sr=1-3&amp;keywords=Volsunga%20Saga&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.amazon.fr/Norse-Mythology-Heroes-Rituals-Beliefs/dp/0195153820&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.amazon.fr/Edda-Snorri-Sturluson/dp/0460876163" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="14037" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2864" RevisionGUID="3c59956c-4635-41bf-baf5-51a5bad972e7" CreationDate="2018-03-17T12:25:17.557" UserId="2774" Comment="typos" Text="As usual, if you remove the little-simplified version of the BBC, the story they are talking about is &quot;the Storm God and the serpent&quot;. but first:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Hittites&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Hittites are an old civilization running through the 2000 BC - 1000 BC period. They are great enough to have stopped Ramses II, potentially the most powerful pharaoh ever [You can find a depiction of the Battle of Kadesh opposing the troops of Ramses II and Muwatalli in the recent movie &quot;Exodus&quot;; As every Hollywoodian depiction forget anything there is there instead of the fact there is a huge battle, actually the first largely documented battle, by Egyptian only unfortunately]. Their capital was Hattusa which has been unearthed near the small village of Boğazköy, hence you will find people talking either of Hattusa or Boğazköy or the modern name Boğazkale (I am always using Hattusa).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The general relationship between the &quot;Hittite area&quot; and the Golden Fleece is suspected from the Greeks themselves. Jan Bremmer wrote an article about a specific item called the kursa:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A sheep kurša, then, is essentially a hide with wool, but in the case&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of goats it is also “specified as ‘rough, shaggy’ (warhui-), i.e. a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fleece with the long curling hair of an angora (= Turkish Ankara) goat&#xD;&#xA;&gt; still on it. The bag has a strap handle by which it can be hung on a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; peg, with the contents accessible”. Now the kurša could be hung on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the eyantree, which was most likely a kind of oak but possibly a yew.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It could also be hung in a special building, ‘the house of the hunting&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bags’, probably a (room in a) temple, where it had a special place:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ‘the place of the god’. In one case, it is worshipped in the temple of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the war god Zababa, what may have given rise to its being hung in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; temple of Ares, but other buildings are also mentioned, and the place&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the kurša clearly depended on local circumstances.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; We find survivance of the kursa fairly after the disappearance of the Hittites as here noticed by Herodotus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 7-26: In any case, after crossing the Halys River,  [the army of King&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Xerxes] entered Phrygia, and on their way through the country they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; arrived at Kelaini [...] It is in this city that the skin of Marsyas&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Silenus is suspended [...] It was hung there after Marsyas was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; flayed by Appolo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Storm God and the Serpent&#xD;&#xA;-----------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You will find this story under a lot of names. Hittites were made of a bunch of civilizations, talking different languages (and writing either in cuneiform or hieroglyph as the Luwian language) and it is reflected here. the Storm God will so be:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Teshub in Hurrian&#xD;&#xA; - Taru for the Anatolians&#xD;&#xA; - The Storm God (of Hatti) for the Hittites (dU in Cuneiform, the &quot;d&quot; being an apposition meaning &quot;god&quot;, a star in cuneiform), his wife, Hebat, in Hurrian being the sun-goddess of Arina&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the same level the Serpent is:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The Serpent&#xD;&#xA; - Illuyanka, which means... serpent in Hittite...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So you will find this story as &quot;Teshub and Illuyanka&quot;, Taru and the snake dragon, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are 2 versions of this story I will shortly describe the second one first:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Second version&#xD;&#xA;=============&#xD;&#xA;Lord Teshub is beaten by Illuyanka who take his heart and eye. Teshub marries the daughter of a poor man and sire a son. This son espouses the daughter of Illuyanka. Teshub asking him to get back his heart and eye. Which he is finally obtaining. Teshub then attacks Illuyanka and kills him, his son coming to him and begging him to kill him with his new family.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I cited this story because of its close connection with Apollodorus's depiction of Typhon vs Zeus. You have the same core elements: Zeus/Teshub defeated and amputated (Heart and eyes vs sinews), they both come back and kick the sorry ass of their arsonists.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First version&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first version is older (for sure) and goes like that (translation by Gary Beckman, I changed to name to Teshub and Illuyanka instead of Storm-god and serpent used by Beckman I also used English standard normalization for the various names):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When Teshub and Illuyanka fought each other in the city of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kishkilushsha, Illuyanka vanquished Teshub.&lt;BR&gt; [Inara](GB: Inara is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Teshub's daughter, Medea here) prepared everything in great&#xD;&#xA;&gt; quantity[...] In the vessels she made abundance. Inara went to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; city of Ziggaratta and she found Khupashiya (GB: here is Jason), a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mortal[...] &quot;I am about to do such and such thing, come with me&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thusly Khupashiya to Inara &quot;If I may sleep with you, then I will come&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and I will do that of you heart&quot;[...]&lt;BR&gt; Inara led Khupashiya away&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and she concealed him. Inara dressed herself up, and she invited&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Illuyanka [...] So [he] came along with his sons and they ate and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; drank [...] They did not want to go down into the lair again.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Khupashiya came and tied up the serpent with a rope. Teshub came and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; killed Illuyanka.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you can see the story is going like that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An obvious goddess (Medea/Inara) is falling in love with a powerful mortal warrior (Jason/Khupashiya), and help him get rid of a mighty &quot;dragon&quot;. Potentially he is later killed (unfortunately the Hittite text, destroyed is not clear).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Walter Burkert talked about that in his fairly excellent *Structure and history in Greek Mythology and Ritual*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (page 10) Recently, Volkert Haas [GB: the book is incorrectly spelling&#xD;&#xA;Volker instead of Volkert] has drawn attention to quite another&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greek myth which bears a surprising resemblance to the Illuyankas myth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as told in the &quot;older&quot; version [GB: what I called here the first version]: Jason and Medea. Here, as there, a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; goddess - there can be no doubt about Medea's divine status - takes a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mortal man as her lover and the two cooperate to overcome the dragon;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; but then the mortal man turns away from his superior spouse, and his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; destroyed in consequence [GB: Burkert's personal interpretation&#xD;&#xA;&gt; here. The Hittite text says nothing about Khupashiya's death] [...]&lt;BR&gt; I do not think this can be coincidence. But in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; spite of the suggestive parallels, it turns out to be impossible to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; integrate the Hittite and the Greek tales into one: on the Greek side&#xD;&#xA;&gt; there is nothing like the characteristic duality of champion and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; helper; thus the whole frame of the combat myth will not fit; on the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; other side, the fleeces, though well attested in Hittite Ritual, do&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not enter into the tale, whereas the Golden Fleece is the very goal of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jason's expedition. [GB: Factually the fleece appears in other stories&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as Telipinu's one... hence my comments, I thought Illuyanka story was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; part of a &quot;Telipinu's matter&quot;]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Generally speaking people specialized (or interested) in Near East old civilization have noticed the fairly strange similitudes between Greek myths and some Near East counterparts:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The cycle of Kumarbi with the beginning of Hesiod's Theogony&#xD;&#xA; - Ishtar episode in the tablet 6 of the Epic of Gilgamesh with Aphrodite's affair in the song 5 of the Iliad&#xD;&#xA; - Zeus loves with Hera in song 14 of the Iliad with the Enuma Elish&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does not means that one has not to be careful with hurried conclusions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="14038" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="3536" RevisionGUID="ef7c72db-75f8-4d63-a650-9808be0185a0" CreationDate="2018-03-17T13:35:25.323" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="What is the earliest known instance of the popular nursery rhyme &quot;The House that Jack Built&quot;, which has verses of increasing length?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="14039" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="3536" RevisionGUID="ef7c72db-75f8-4d63-a650-9808be0185a0" CreationDate="2018-03-17T13:35:25.323" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="What is the earliest known instance of the nursery rhyme &quot;The House that Jack Built&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="14040" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="3536" RevisionGUID="ef7c72db-75f8-4d63-a650-9808be0185a0" CreationDate="2018-03-17T13:35:25.323" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="|folklore|nursery-rhymes|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15038" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3528" RevisionGUID="ddd177e8-f52e-4dc9-a9f6-79b56932343a" CreationDate="2018-03-17T14:27:00.170" UserId="4105" Comment="corrected spelling" Text="The reason the Titans don't appear in many myths is because of the Ages of Man. To answer this question, you need a little backstory first. In the Golden Age, the primordial deities (first gods) ruled the world and Underworld. Gaia was the earth and Ouranos was the sky. They were mated and had many kids. Long story short, Gaia got her kids (specifically the Titan males [minus Oceanus]) to over threw him as king and Cronus claimed the thrown.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Fast forward Cronus was also bad (he ate his kids as soon as they were born) and his wife, Rhea, hid their sixth kid and gave him a rock to eat instead. When Zeus (the sixth kid) was all grown up, he served as Cronus's cup bearer. One day, with the help of Metis by some, Zeus put some mustard in his cup and had his dad puke up his siblings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After a ten year war, Zeus and his five siblings defeat the titans. Most are sent to Tartarus (the pit) as punishment. But some, like those didn't partake in the war, didn't. The ones who remained neutral were left alone. The others that did were punished differently. Atlas's punishment for helping Cronus was to hold the sky up for eternity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then Zeus named himself king and thus started the Silver Age.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Prometheus was a beneficiary of mankind. Because of this, he was seen as less of a titan and more of a god, but still being called a titan. In other words, a titan is a god, but a god is not a titan. All titans are gods, but only titans are titans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gaia was loved as any other goddess. 'Oaths sworn in the name of Gaia, in ancient Greece, were considered the most binding of all. She was also worshiped under the epithet &quot;Anesidora&quot;, which means &quot;giver of gifts&quot;'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After the Silver Age, Titans aren't really mentioned as most were in Tartarus. Those that aren't are often just called gods or Titan gods. Examples: Helios, Titan god of the sun, a guardian of oaths, and the god of sight. Selene, goddess of the moon, sister of Helios. Hecate, goddess of magic, crossroads, witchcraft..." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15039" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3528" RevisionGUID="ddd177e8-f52e-4dc9-a9f6-79b56932343a" CreationDate="2018-03-17T14:27:00.170" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 2774, 967 edit id of 574" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15040" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3528" RevisionGUID="5cd251fd-da18-4083-b8e7-e1e6bfdf60d7" CreationDate="2018-03-17T14:43:11.573" UserId="4271" Comment="added 23 characters in body" Text="The reason the Titans don't appear in many myths is because of the Ages of Man. To answer this question, you need a little backstory first. In the Golden Age, the primordial deities (first gods) ruled the world and Underworld. Gaia was the earth and Ouranos was the sky. They were mated and had many kids. Long story short, Gaia got her kids (specifically the Titan males [minus Oceanus]) to over threw him as king and Cronus claimed the thrown.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Fast forward Cronus was also bad (he ate his kids as soon as they were born) and his wife, Rhea, hid their sixth kid and gave him a rock to eat instead. When Zeus (the sixth kid) was all grown up, he served as Cronus's cup bearer. One day, with the help of Metis by some, Zeus put some mustard in his cup and had his dad puke up his siblings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After a ten year war called the [Titanomachy][1], Zeus and his five siblings defeat the titans. Most are sent to Tartarus (the pit) as punishment. But some, like those didn't partake in the war, didn't. The ones who remained neutral were left alone. The others that did were punished differently. Atlas's punishment for helping Cronus was to hold the sky up for eternity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then Zeus named himself king and thus started the Silver Age.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Prometheus was a beneficiary of mankind. Because of this, he was seen as less of a titan and more of a god, but still being called a titan. In other words, a titan is a god, but a god is not a titan. All titans are gods, but only titans are titans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gaia was loved as any other goddess. 'Oaths sworn in the name of Gaia, in ancient Greece, were considered the most binding of all. She was also worshiped under the epithet &quot;Anesidora&quot;, which means &quot;giver of gifts&quot;'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After the Silver Age, Titans aren't really mentioned as most were in Tartarus. Those that aren't are often just called gods or Titan gods. Examples: Helios, Titan god of the sun, a guardian of oaths, and the god of sight. Selene, goddess of the moon, sister of Helios. Hecate, goddess of magic, crossroads, witchcraft...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanomachy" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15041" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3528" RevisionGUID="7714955a-1234-4bae-8881-278f6de76fc5" CreationDate="2018-03-17T14:59:08.173" UserId="4271" Comment="added links" Text="The reason the Titans don't appear in many myths is because of the Ages of Man. To answer this question, you need a little backstory first. In the Golden Age, the primordial deities (first gods) ruled the world and Underworld. Gaia was the earth and Ouranos was the sky. They were mated and had many kids. Long story short, Gaia got her kids (specifically the Titan males [minus Oceanus]) to over threw him as king and Cronus claimed the thrown.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Fast forward Cronus was also bad (he ate his kids as soon as they were born) and his wife, Rhea, hid their sixth kid and gave him a rock to eat instead. When Zeus (the sixth kid) was all grown up, he served as Cronus's cup bearer. One day, with the help of Metis by some, Zeus put some mustard (or an [emetic][1], by others) in his cup and had his dad puke up his siblings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After a ten year war called the [Titanomachy][2], Zeus and his five siblings defeat the titans. Most are sent to Tartarus (the pit) as punishment. But some, like those didn't partake in the war, didn't. The ones who remained neutral were left alone. The others that did were punished differently. Atlas's punishment for helping Cronus was to hold the sky up for eternity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then Zeus named himself king and thus started the [Silver Age][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Prometheus was a beneficiary of mankind. Because of this, he was seen as less of a titan and more of a god, but still being called a titan. In other words, a titan is a god, but a god is not a titan. All titans are gods, but only titans are titans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gaia was loved as any other goddess. 'Oaths sworn in the name of Gaia, in ancient Greece, were considered the most binding of all. She was also worshiped under the epithet &quot;Anesidora&quot;, which means &quot;giver of gifts&quot;'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After the Silver Age, Titans aren't really mentioned as most were in Tartarus. Those that aren't are often just called gods or Titan gods. Examples: Helios, Titan god of the sun, a guardian of oaths, and the god of sight. Selene, goddess of the moon, sister of Helios. Hecate, goddess of magic, crossroads, witchcraft...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.thoughtco.com/titanomachy-111784&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanomachy&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.greekmythology.com/Myths/The_Myths/Ages_of_Man/ages_of_man.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15042" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3531" RevisionGUID="26e20731-78ab-458b-a374-9228568ebd06" CreationDate="2018-03-17T15:02:04.847" UserId="57" Comment="added 18 characters in body; edited title" Text="An ocean in the sky shows up quite a lot in depictions, but finding good evidence for it in Egyptian and Mesopotamian mythology, etc is hard. It does appear to be in the Book of Genesis, however." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15043" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3531" RevisionGUID="26e20731-78ab-458b-a374-9228568ebd06" CreationDate="2018-03-17T15:02:04.847" UserId="57" Comment="added 18 characters in body; edited title" Text="Did the inhabitants of the ancient Near East / Mediterranean believe in an ocean in the sky?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15044" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3533" RevisionGUID="5ead02d3-1282-4c19-a39c-e550d55ad2c5" CreationDate="2018-03-17T15:03:27.763" UserId="57" Comment="added 10 characters in body; edited title; edited tags" Text="So I found this big old book about ancient cultures and in it, the typical offering on Crete was blood, wine and milk. Mixed together in a big bowl. The book describes the mix as a symbol for the drink of gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's interesting because I heard that Maasai tribe uses (or used) blood and milk from their livestock as their main food source.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But does this have to do anything with Greek culture? Did ancient Greeks had a similar ritual? Could this be the nectar and ambrosia?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15045" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3533" RevisionGUID="5ead02d3-1282-4c19-a39c-e550d55ad2c5" CreationDate="2018-03-17T15:03:27.763" UserId="57" Comment="added 10 characters in body; edited title; edited tags" Text="Did the Greeks have an offering of blood, wine and milk, similar to the Cretan one?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15046" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3533" RevisionGUID="5ead02d3-1282-4c19-a39c-e550d55ad2c5" CreationDate="2018-03-17T15:03:27.763" UserId="57" Comment="added 10 characters in body; edited title; edited tags" Text="|greek|rituals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15047" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4536" RevisionGUID="a977fd4c-f1f5-43b3-b613-232f22cd5a53" CreationDate="2018-03-17T15:07:34.007" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15048" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4536" RevisionGUID="a977fd4c-f1f5-43b3-b613-232f22cd5a53" CreationDate="2018-03-17T15:07:34.007" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15049" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4537" RevisionGUID="3badda68-895b-4a9f-ad2a-d7484f82639c" CreationDate="2018-03-17T15:07:34.007" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15050" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4537" RevisionGUID="3badda68-895b-4a9f-ad2a-d7484f82639c" CreationDate="2018-03-17T15:07:34.007" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15051" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3530" RevisionGUID="4b17a6d7-ef1b-41f1-b36b-03fcab69f185" CreationDate="2018-03-17T15:08:19.630" UserId="57" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="I recently read that ambrosia, the food of the gods, is brought to Olympus by doves. But, who makes it? Is it natural to the earth (i.e. a plant)? Is there a deity that makes it and sends the doves to Olympus? What about nectar, the drink of the gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15052" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4538" RevisionGUID="28a21395-45b0-4654-bd9e-54502a9030ba" CreationDate="2018-03-17T15:09:09.620" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15053" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4538" RevisionGUID="28a21395-45b0-4654-bd9e-54502a9030ba" CreationDate="2018-03-17T15:09:09.620" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15054" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4539" RevisionGUID="b307781e-f3fb-4258-a90a-4a9991ada1e1" CreationDate="2018-03-17T15:09:09.620" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15055" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4539" RevisionGUID="b307781e-f3fb-4258-a90a-4a9991ada1e1" CreationDate="2018-03-17T15:09:09.620" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15056" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3526" RevisionGUID="b82ed17e-f22c-4281-b92f-a89df088e450" CreationDate="2018-03-17T15:11:40.867" UserId="4105" Comment="corrected spelling, fixed grammar" Text="Kings Ejetus and Epeirotus from Colhis were famous metalworkers. Metopa was in their prison which was something like a metal workshop. Also they had a stoves for iron which were presented like a bull who vomits fire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My source is: Robert Graves, The Greek myths, Story of Argo." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15057" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3526" RevisionGUID="b82ed17e-f22c-4281-b92f-a89df088e450" CreationDate="2018-03-17T15:11:40.867" Comment="Proposed by 4105 approved by 967, 2774 edit id of 575" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15058" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4540" RevisionGUID="7654318e-5848-4e68-a315-abdf9980ad0d" CreationDate="2018-03-17T15:51:58.020" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15059" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4540" RevisionGUID="7654318e-5848-4e68-a315-abdf9980ad0d" CreationDate="2018-03-17T15:51:58.020" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15060" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4541" RevisionGUID="a99705a7-8fee-43ff-9648-b15b8072f9b5" CreationDate="2018-03-17T15:51:58.020" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15061" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4541" RevisionGUID="a99705a7-8fee-43ff-9648-b15b8072f9b5" CreationDate="2018-03-17T15:51:58.020" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15062" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4542" RevisionGUID="0c90585e-4659-4c47-8fd3-bac5cd3825ad" CreationDate="2018-03-17T16:01:23.457" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15063" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4542" RevisionGUID="0c90585e-4659-4c47-8fd3-bac5cd3825ad" CreationDate="2018-03-17T16:01:23.457" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15064" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4543" RevisionGUID="be614dca-351c-43c9-9cb2-16da89245f55" CreationDate="2018-03-17T16:01:23.457" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15065" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4543" RevisionGUID="be614dca-351c-43c9-9cb2-16da89245f55" CreationDate="2018-03-17T16:01:23.457" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15066" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4544" RevisionGUID="99c9ea17-ef85-482d-a774-99649f11b570" CreationDate="2018-03-17T16:18:12.793" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15067" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4544" RevisionGUID="99c9ea17-ef85-482d-a774-99649f11b570" CreationDate="2018-03-17T16:18:12.793" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15068" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4545" RevisionGUID="5418d80d-0725-4f44-8d98-eff5c0e4a047" CreationDate="2018-03-17T16:18:12.793" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15069" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4545" RevisionGUID="5418d80d-0725-4f44-8d98-eff5c0e4a047" CreationDate="2018-03-17T16:18:12.793" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15070" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4546" RevisionGUID="7f50c7a8-42a1-4a2b-befb-e6e6f41d7c5c" CreationDate="2018-03-17T16:19:54.950" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15071" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4546" RevisionGUID="7f50c7a8-42a1-4a2b-befb-e6e6f41d7c5c" CreationDate="2018-03-17T16:19:54.950" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15072" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4547" RevisionGUID="01ca91ef-44d0-4022-9154-af0428d7b4ac" CreationDate="2018-03-17T16:19:54.950" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15073" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4547" RevisionGUID="01ca91ef-44d0-4022-9154-af0428d7b4ac" CreationDate="2018-03-17T16:19:54.950" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15074" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4548" RevisionGUID="019da026-f370-49fd-a6b9-415714b27c67" CreationDate="2018-03-17T16:31:26.683" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15075" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4548" RevisionGUID="019da026-f370-49fd-a6b9-415714b27c67" CreationDate="2018-03-17T16:31:26.683" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15076" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4549" RevisionGUID="c2877bc1-0e9c-4b7a-af81-1e5b3b769049" CreationDate="2018-03-17T16:31:26.683" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15077" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4549" RevisionGUID="c2877bc1-0e9c-4b7a-af81-1e5b3b769049" CreationDate="2018-03-17T16:31:26.683" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15080" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4550" RevisionGUID="8dbec613-6ed0-4a4c-a00e-9fec8ab07317" CreationDate="2018-03-17T17:06:38.873" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15081" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4550" RevisionGUID="8dbec613-6ed0-4a4c-a00e-9fec8ab07317" CreationDate="2018-03-17T17:06:38.873" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15082" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4551" RevisionGUID="2608abeb-ae9d-418f-b195-652682b46ea3" CreationDate="2018-03-17T17:06:38.873" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15083" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4551" RevisionGUID="2608abeb-ae9d-418f-b195-652682b46ea3" CreationDate="2018-03-17T17:06:38.873" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15084" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4552" RevisionGUID="9a1c7756-4084-4d6c-ab3f-fee77f4c5908" CreationDate="2018-03-17T17:07:11.940" UserId="57" Text="[Leo Allatius][1] recorded the belief that a [vrykolakas][2] cannot harm the occupants of a house unless invited in, in *De Graecorum hodie quorundam opinationibus* (On the Beliefs of the Greeks), published in 1645:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For very often, inhabiting this body, he [the devil] comes forth from the grave, and going abroad through villages and other places where men dwell, more especially at night, he makes his way to what so ever house he will, and knocking upon the door he calls aloud by name in a hoarse voice one who dwells within. If such a one answers he is lost; for assuredly he will die the next day. But if he does not answer he is safe. Wherefore in this island of Chios all the inhabitants, if during the night they are called by anyone, never make reply the first time. For, if a man be called the second time it is not the vrykolakis who is summoning him but somebody else.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The origin of the belief is probably much, much older. Hopefully, other answers will provide evidence of the belief before 1645.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Allatius&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vrykolakas" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15085" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4553" RevisionGUID="4d165261-dd2d-4ac1-b0e2-017e30df0c09" CreationDate="2018-03-17T17:22:23.137" UserId="4271" Text="Wearing green on St. Patrick's Day is a tradition. No questions asked, just do it, kinda thing. So, as I'm sitting here, in my green shirt (it says &quot;WORLD'S TALLEST LEPRECHAUN), I came to wonder why we do it. Why do we wear green on St. Patrick's Day and get pinched if we don't?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15086" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4553" RevisionGUID="4d165261-dd2d-4ac1-b0e2-017e30df0c09" CreationDate="2018-03-17T17:22:23.137" UserId="4271" Text="Why do we get pinched on St. Patrick's Day?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15087" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4553" RevisionGUID="4d165261-dd2d-4ac1-b0e2-017e30df0c09" CreationDate="2018-03-17T17:22:23.137" UserId="4271" Text="|folklore|traditions|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15088" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4553" RevisionGUID="880198e1-9553-485d-8a2e-a4798dc65a13" CreationDate="2018-03-17T17:27:55.567" UserId="4271" Comment="added 12 characters in body" Text="Wearing green on St. Patrick's Day is a tradition. No questions asked, just do it, kinda thing. So, as I'm running away to ask this, in my green shirt (it says &quot;WORLD'S TALLEST LEPRECHAUN), I came to wonder why we do it. Why do we wear green on St. Patrick's Day and get pinched if we don't?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15089" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="759" RevisionGUID="265e3019-ed2b-4d0c-a06a-cff3951d59e7" CreationDate="2018-03-17T17:28:39.507" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="added date" Text="The story of [Theophilus of Adana](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophilus_of_Adana), who died in the 6th century CE, is indeed the first documented story of a pact of this type:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The subject of the **first recorded story** of a pact with the devil, Theophilus of Adana humbly declined to become bishop of Adana, now in modern Turkey.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; [Historical Dictionary of Witchcraft][1] &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Eythichianus of Adana][2] seems to have been the one to have recorded this story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eutyches, who claimed to be an eyewitness of the events, is the first to record Theophilus’ story. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Theophilus of Adana][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Judging from this and since [Theophilus of Adana](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophilus_of_Adana) lived until ca. 538 AD, it is safe to assume that the story was recorded in the 6th century.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although the story is of an apocryphal nature, [Theophilus of Adana](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophilus_of_Adana) is a historical figure.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Although Theophilus is considered to be an historical personage, the tale associated with him is of an apocryphal nature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Theophilus of Adana][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems the authorship of Eythichianus is accepted by the Church as factual:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Του Βίου του Θεοφίλου Αδάνων της Κιλικίας, ον συνέγραψεν ο σύγχρονος αυτού Ευτυχιανός, η υπό του Παύλου διακόνου λατινική μετάφρασις υπάρχει εν τοις Acta SS. Februarii 1, 483 έ.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The life of Theophilus of Adana of Cilicia, **which was written by his contemporary Eythichianus**, is translated in Latin by Paul and is to be found in Acta SS. Februarii 1.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Ιστορία της Βυζαντινής Λογοτεχνίας][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By having a look in [Acta Sanctorum][6]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;DE THEOPHILO POENITENTE&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Auctore Eutychiano&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; interprete Paulo Diacono Neapoleos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Acta Sanctorum][7]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.gr/books?id=nkSQtU-PSa8C&amp;pg=PA190&amp;lpg=PA190&amp;dq=Theophilus%20of%20Adana&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=2ie9YhF8Gv&amp;sig=O4BhcHbGpTDmg6nLSh3edytA77c&amp;hl=el&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=hjpcVbXdH8aksAGC14HYCw&amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;q=Theophilus%20of%20Adana&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutychianus_of_Adana&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.faust.com/legend/theophilus-of-adana/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.faust.com/legend/theophilus-of-adana/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://books.google.gr/books?id=GuzOBQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA375&amp;lpg=PA375&amp;dq=%CE%95%CF%85%CF%84%CF%85%CF%87%CE%B9%CE%B1%CE%BD%CF%8C%CF%82%20%CF%84%CF%89%CE%BD%20%CE%B1%CE%B4%CE%AC%CE%BD%CF%89%CE%BD&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=PCMnr0-QAM&amp;sig=pRziXyJp0qAD1lagjApOiAR6Ud8&amp;hl=el&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=WK9cVffFIcX4ywOL84CoAg&amp;ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&amp;q=%CE%95%CF%85%CF%84%CF%85%CF%87%CE%B9%CE%B1%CE%BD%CF%8C%CF%82%20&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acta_Sanctorum&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://archive.org/stream/actasanctorum04unse#page/488/mode/2up" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15090" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4554" RevisionGUID="14ba08c0-6e8c-41f5-b4e1-79ac0c5cf310" CreationDate="2018-03-17T19:57:24.750" UserId="4271" Text="[Lelantos][1]'s daughter is the nymph Aura (Breeze). Nonnus says that her mother, or at lease his wife, is the Oceanid Periboia. But elsewhere, he calls Aura the &quot;daughter of Cybele&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cybele is a Phrygian goddess from Asia Minor (Anatolia) that got integrated into Greek Mythology. Could Nonnus have meant Aura was born in the land where Cybele was from?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lelantos" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15091" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4554" RevisionGUID="14ba08c0-6e8c-41f5-b4e1-79ac0c5cf310" CreationDate="2018-03-17T19:57:24.750" UserId="4271" Text="Lelantos and his daughter" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15092" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4554" RevisionGUID="14ba08c0-6e8c-41f5-b4e1-79ac0c5cf310" CreationDate="2018-03-17T19:57:24.750" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|myth-identification|comparative|anatolia|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15093" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4545" RevisionGUID="5f32f5d6-fdc3-4dad-bc70-b6151b33a09b" CreationDate="2018-03-17T20:18:51.540" UserId="4271" Comment="added 151 characters in body" Text="A pseudepigraphic work (a text whose claimed authorship is uncertain) of Jewish origin from 70-150 AD. It may hold traditions from the time of Abraham." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15094" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4545" RevisionGUID="5f32f5d6-fdc3-4dad-bc70-b6151b33a09b" CreationDate="2018-03-17T20:18:51.540" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 2774, 967 edit id of 1580" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15095" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4547" RevisionGUID="7eaaca8a-f187-4cd9-92e8-4aa62e2799aa" CreationDate="2018-03-17T20:18:55.043" UserId="4271" Comment="added 197 characters in body" Text="The study of the movements and relative positions of celestial objects as a means for divining information about human affairs and terrestrial events. Or, looking to the sky to find out the future." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15096" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4547" RevisionGUID="7eaaca8a-f187-4cd9-92e8-4aa62e2799aa" CreationDate="2018-03-17T20:18:55.043" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 2774, 967 edit id of 1581" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15097" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4541" RevisionGUID="efb537f3-916e-445b-b17d-faa25cfec966" CreationDate="2018-03-17T20:18:58.400" UserId="4271" Comment="change of word" Text="Anatolia, Greek for Asia Minor. A place with much history. It is considered a great crossroads of Ancient Civilizations. Some civilizations that have been here are: the Old Assyrian Empire, Hattian, Hellenistic Anatolia (Greeks), Achaemenid Empire, Byzantine Anatolia (East Rome), the age of the Crusades (religious wars), followed by the gradual Seljuk (Qiniq branch of Oghuz Turks)/Ottoman (Turkey) conquest in the 13th to 14th centuries and too many others." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15098" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4541" RevisionGUID="efb537f3-916e-445b-b17d-faa25cfec966" CreationDate="2018-03-17T20:18:58.400" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 2774, 967 edit id of 1578" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15099" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4539" RevisionGUID="e846aa81-fb63-4ca1-bd8b-f0def77238a9" CreationDate="2018-03-17T20:19:01.303" UserId="4271" Comment="added 82 characters in body" Text="Questions pertaining to the female race of warriors in Greek Mythology, culture..." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15100" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4539" RevisionGUID="e846aa81-fb63-4ca1-bd8b-f0def77238a9" CreationDate="2018-03-17T20:19:01.303" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 2774, 967 edit id of 1576" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15101" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4549" RevisionGUID="99f06049-fc8b-469a-b8be-1a3585ed0da1" CreationDate="2018-03-17T20:19:04.190" UserId="4271" Comment="added 114 characters in body" Text="A legendary reptile reputed to be King of serpents and said to have the power to cause death with a single glance." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15102" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4549" RevisionGUID="99f06049-fc8b-469a-b8be-1a3585ed0da1" CreationDate="2018-03-17T20:19:04.190" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 2774, 967 edit id of 1582" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15103" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4555" RevisionGUID="93953083-28a3-4e7a-86c6-a90382b7ebb9" CreationDate="2018-03-17T20:24:00.983" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="What is the earliest known appearance of a hero's greatgrandparent in any genre of folklore? By that I mean where the hero's greatgrandparent is alive and interacts with the hero." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15104" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4555" RevisionGUID="93953083-28a3-4e7a-86c6-a90382b7ebb9" CreationDate="2018-03-17T20:24:00.983" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="What is the earliest known appearance of a hero's greatgrandparent in folklore?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15105" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4555" RevisionGUID="93953083-28a3-4e7a-86c6-a90382b7ebb9" CreationDate="2018-03-17T20:24:00.983" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15106" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4556" RevisionGUID="91f06f16-7deb-41cd-af70-50544ea2ab87" CreationDate="2018-03-17T20:25:01.060" UserId="4271" Text="I just learned that Paris was exposed as a baby (left outside to die) while researching Cybele. Why did the gods let him survive?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If he was exposed, why did the Trojans accept him back as their prince?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How did he die?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15107" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4556" RevisionGUID="91f06f16-7deb-41cd-af70-50544ea2ab87" CreationDate="2018-03-17T20:25:01.060" UserId="4271" Text="The guy we never want to talk about, Paris" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15108" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4556" RevisionGUID="91f06f16-7deb-41cd-af70-50544ea2ab87" CreationDate="2018-03-17T20:25:01.060" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|trojan-war|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15109" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1319" RevisionGUID="a6feaa20-a3bd-47cb-9af2-c5f6707b8349" CreationDate="2018-03-17T20:29:33.060" UserId="4271" Comment="added 80 characters in body" Text="Questions pertaining to the 3,182 line epic poem of Old English of the same name" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15110" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1319" RevisionGUID="a6feaa20-a3bd-47cb-9af2-c5f6707b8349" CreationDate="2018-03-17T20:29:33.060" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 2774, 967 edit id of 1585" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15111" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4551" RevisionGUID="bb307e90-053b-4b07-a949-8b9db3c0d799" CreationDate="2018-03-17T20:29:54.000" UserId="4271" Comment="added 56 characters in body" Text="Questions pertaining to how/if a god's age affects them." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15112" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4551" RevisionGUID="bb307e90-053b-4b07-a949-8b9db3c0d799" CreationDate="2018-03-17T20:29:54.000" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 2774, 967 edit id of 1583" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15116" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4558" RevisionGUID="0ac3c7b9-ceab-40c6-8553-be3a4f5be809" CreationDate="2018-03-17T20:44:26.343" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="According to tradition, St Patrick banished all snakes from Ireland. But it is thought that at least since the end of the last glacial period in about 9700 BCE, Ireland had no snakes. What is being conveyed or connoted in this tradition?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15117" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4558" RevisionGUID="0ac3c7b9-ceab-40c6-8553-be3a4f5be809" CreationDate="2018-03-17T20:44:26.343" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="What is conveyed or connoted in the story that St Patrick banished snakes from Ireland, when in his time Ireland had no snakes?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15118" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4558" RevisionGUID="0ac3c7b9-ceab-40c6-8553-be3a4f5be809" CreationDate="2018-03-17T20:44:26.343" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="|folklore|irish|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15119" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4559" RevisionGUID="40b2dbb0-6e4d-427d-a16c-e535eaec8d0c" CreationDate="2018-03-17T20:47:35.743" UserId="4271" Text="I remember a myth I read once. It talked of a man who was the only mortal to be taught prophecy, or some form of it, by Athena, Greek goddess of Wisdom. But I can not recall the name of this man. Nor was I told how Athena, Greek goddess of Wisdom, came to know or learn prophecy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who taught Athena, Greek goddess of Wisdom, the art of prophecy? Was it taught to Athena, Greek goddess of Wisdom, by Pallas, her father Triton, her mother or some other manner of being?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who was this man that was taught by Athena, Greek goddess of Wisdom?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I ask this next question because prophecy is not usually associated with Athena, Greek goddess of Wisdom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did someone confuse myths, giving prophecy to Athena, Greek goddess of Wisdom?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15120" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4559" RevisionGUID="40b2dbb0-6e4d-427d-a16c-e535eaec8d0c" CreationDate="2018-03-17T20:47:35.743" UserId="4271" Text="Prophecy and Wisdom" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15121" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4559" RevisionGUID="40b2dbb0-6e4d-427d-a16c-e535eaec8d0c" CreationDate="2018-03-17T20:47:35.743" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|athena|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15124" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4559" RevisionGUID="e244692d-ef1f-43eb-bc5f-a29e280bcf6a" CreationDate="2018-03-17T21:27:03.760" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="deleted 1 character in body; edited title" Text="I remember a myth I read once. It talked of a man who was the only mortal to be taught prophecy, or some form of it, by Athena, Greek goddess of Wisdom. But I cannot recall the name of this man. Nor was I told how Athena, Greek goddess of Wisdom, came to know or learn prophecy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who taught Athena, Greek goddess of Wisdom, the art of prophecy? Was it taught to Athena, Greek goddess of Wisdom, by Pallas, her father Triton, her mother or some other manner of being?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who was this man that was taught by Athena, Greek goddess of Wisdom?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I ask this next question because prophecy is not usually associated with Athena, Greek goddess of Wisdom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did someone confuse myths, giving prophecy to Athena, Greek goddess of Wisdom?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15125" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4559" RevisionGUID="e244692d-ef1f-43eb-bc5f-a29e280bcf6a" CreationDate="2018-03-17T21:27:03.760" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="deleted 1 character in body; edited title" Text="Who was the man whom Athena gave the gift of prophecy, and from whom did she learn it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15126" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4561" RevisionGUID="97b9d4b7-73ef-4040-aabc-41c96f2a06f9" CreationDate="2018-03-17T21:28:45.877" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="The man that Athena gave the gift of prophecy, or more exactly augury, was [Tiresias][1]. He had seen her bathing naked in a stream, and in retaliation she made him blind. His mother, Chariclo, one of Athena's nymphs, begged Athena to undo her curse, but she could not. Athena then cleaned his ears, enabling him to understand birdsong, from which he could foretell the future.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She did not teach him it, and as far as I am aware she did not herself have it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiresias" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15128" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4556" RevisionGUID="b01f81fe-9d8d-4689-9e9c-fb63dace1018" CreationDate="2018-03-17T21:50:53.360" UserId="57" Comment="Narrowed this down and replaced the awful initial title. Please avoid asking multiple questions in one. Also, removed the assumption that gods had anything to do with Paris surviving, since you don't provide anything to back it up." Text="I just learned that Paris was exposed as a baby (left outside to die).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How did he survive? If he was exposed, why did the Trojans accept him back as their prince?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15129" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4556" RevisionGUID="b01f81fe-9d8d-4689-9e9c-fb63dace1018" CreationDate="2018-03-17T21:50:53.360" UserId="57" Comment="Narrowed this down and replaced the awful initial title. Please avoid asking multiple questions in one. Also, removed the assumption that gods had anything to do with Paris surviving, since you don't provide anything to back it up." Text="Why did the Trojans accept Paris back?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15130" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4554" RevisionGUID="87cc793f-40fe-4c82-b7b9-5a36bc77fa1e" CreationDate="2018-03-17T21:53:48.107" UserId="57" Comment="replaced the title with a more descriptive one" Text="[Lelantos][1]'s daughter is the nymph Aura (Breeze). Nonnus says that her mother, or at least his wife, is the Oceanid Periboia. But elsewhere, he calls Aura the &quot;daughter of Cybele&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cybele is a Phrygian goddess from Asia Minor (Anatolia) that got integrated into Greek Mythology. Could Nonnus have meant Aura was born in the land where Cybele was from?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lelantos" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15131" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4554" RevisionGUID="87cc793f-40fe-4c82-b7b9-5a36bc77fa1e" CreationDate="2018-03-17T21:53:48.107" UserId="57" Comment="replaced the title with a more descriptive one" Text="Who is Aura's mother?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15132" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="4554" RevisionGUID="87cc793f-40fe-4c82-b7b9-5a36bc77fa1e" CreationDate="2018-03-17T21:53:48.107" UserId="57" Comment="replaced the title with a more descriptive one" Text="|greek|anatolia|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15133" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4562" RevisionGUID="8c31b150-bf00-47cc-b01f-65db5bc5fe73" CreationDate="2018-03-17T21:53:52.180" UserId="4271" Text="About two years ago, I found this Greek Mythology documentary called, &quot;Clash of the Gods.&quot; It is a three disk series with ten episodes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They feature Heracles by his Roman name, Hercules, in the second episode. As it was a while ago, I don't remember everything they said. What I do know is that they skipped his Sixth Labor, the Stymphalian Birds. They also talked about how the hydra myth is preserved in the English word, &quot;toxin,&quot; or, &quot;toxic.&quot; And that one of the men must have been talking about how the myth of Heracles can from many mythologies or something. I definitively remember his saying, &quot;Wait a minute, our strong man seems to be a little bit like your strong man.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So my question(s) is this...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it possible that the Heracles myths is a compilation of multiple cultures? If so, what would they be?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15134" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4562" RevisionGUID="8c31b150-bf00-47cc-b01f-65db5bc5fe73" CreationDate="2018-03-17T21:53:52.180" UserId="4271" Text="Heracles is a compilation?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15135" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4562" RevisionGUID="8c31b150-bf00-47cc-b01f-65db5bc5fe73" CreationDate="2018-03-17T21:53:52.180" UserId="4271" Text="|comparative|origins|hercules|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15137" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4553" RevisionGUID="53952a55-88dc-4e55-9e34-1eb70051e42d" CreationDate="2018-03-17T21:56:55.467" UserId="57" Comment="edited title" Text="Why do we wear green on St. Patrick's Day and get pinched if we don't?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15138" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4562" RevisionGUID="76c77781-6d98-401a-ad2e-c8f9665942c6" CreationDate="2018-03-17T22:01:21.633" UserId="57" Comment="more descriptive title" Text="About two years ago, I found this Greek Mythology documentary called, &quot;Clash of the Gods.&quot; It is a three disk series with ten episodes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They feature Heracles by his Roman name, Hercules, in the second episode. As it was a while ago, I don't remember everything they said. What I do know is that they skipped his Sixth Labor, the Stymphalian Birds. They also talked about how the Hydra myth is preserved in the English word, &quot;toxin,&quot; or, &quot;toxic.&quot; And that one of the men must have been talking about how the myth of Heracles can from many mythologies or something. I definitively remember his saying, &quot;Wait a minute, our strongman seems to be a little bit like your strong man.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So my question(s) is this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it possible that the Heracles myths are a compilation of stories from multiple cultures?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15139" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4562" RevisionGUID="76c77781-6d98-401a-ad2e-c8f9665942c6" CreationDate="2018-03-17T22:01:21.633" UserId="57" Comment="more descriptive title" Text="Is it possible that the Heracles myths are a compilation of stories from multiple cultures?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15140" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="4562" RevisionGUID="76c77781-6d98-401a-ad2e-c8f9665942c6" CreationDate="2018-03-17T22:01:21.633" UserId="57" Comment="more descriptive title" Text="|origins|hercules|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15141" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4552" RevisionGUID="5925b855-a2ae-4ea5-b900-292288a06036" CreationDate="2018-03-17T22:09:09.440" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 24 characters in body" Text="The belief goes back at least to the 17th century. [Leo Allatius][1] recorded in *De Graecorum hodie quorundam opinationibus* (On the Beliefs of the Greeks, published in 1645) that a [vrykolakas][2] cannot harm the occupants of a house unless they answer the door:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For very often, inhabiting this body, he [the devil] comes forth from the grave, and going abroad through villages and other places where men dwell, more especially at night, he makes his way to what so ever house he will, and knocking upon the door he calls aloud by name in a hoarse voice one who dwells within. If such a one answers he is lost; for assuredly he will die the next day. But if he does not answer he is safe. Wherefore in this island of Chios all the inhabitants, if during the night they are called by anyone, never make reply the first time. For, if a man be called the second time it is not the vrykolakis who is summoning him but somebody else.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The origin of the belief is probably much, much older. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Allatius&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vrykolakas" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15142" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4562" RevisionGUID="f97272c5-d1b0-4a27-a7c8-1bafc33a4efe" CreationDate="2018-03-17T22:14:12.677" UserId="4271" Comment="misplaced letter" Text="About two years ago, I found this Greek Mythology documentary called, &quot;Clash of the Gods.&quot; It is a three disk series with ten episodes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They feature Heracles by his Roman name, Hercules, in the second episode. As it was a while ago, I don't remember everything they said. What I do know is that they skipped his Sixth Labor, the Stymphalian Birds. They also talked about how the Hydra myth is preserved in the English word, &quot;toxin,&quot; or, &quot;toxic.&quot; And that one of the men must have been talking about how the myth of Heracles can from many mythologies or something. I definitively remember his saying, &quot;Wait a minute, our strongman seems to be a little bit like your strong man.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So my question is this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it possible that the Heracles myths are a compilation of stories from multiple cultures?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15145" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4564" RevisionGUID="de607f84-4418-4f16-8951-79faff5769b6" CreationDate="2018-03-17T23:01:25.777" UserId="4864" Text="Paris survived with Agelais help on the Gargarus by the mountain Ida.He return in Troy when Trojans prepare the games with bulls,and he was the winner.Source-Robert Graves,The Greek myths,chapter 159.,Paris and Helena." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15149" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4564" RevisionGUID="654d50a5-5de5-486e-9046-1be148823690" CreationDate="2018-03-18T01:46:37.187" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 9 characters in body" Text="Paris survived with Agelais help on the Gargarus by the mountain Ida. He returned to Troy when Trojans prepared games with bulls, and won.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source-Robert Graves,The Greek myths,chapter 159.,Paris and Helena." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15150" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="4564" RevisionGUID="baee663a-445d-47c5-a573-9deaee2707c3" CreationDate="2018-03-18T01:46:57.447" UserId="108" Comment="62" />
  <row Id="15152" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3433" RevisionGUID="35e02615-856b-4797-a33f-08dd23943487" CreationDate="2018-03-18T01:47:37.443" UserId="108" Comment="edited title" Text="What's the origin of “vampires must be invited”?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15155" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3531" RevisionGUID="9c3e8d88-a279-4a26-b41f-dd9967f4bde2" CreationDate="2018-03-18T01:50:31.190" UserId="108" Comment="added 101 characters in body; edited title" Text="An ocean in the sky shows up quite a lot in depictions, for example Psalms 148:4:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Praise him, you highest heavens, and you waters above the heavens!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But finding good evidence for it in Egyptian and Mesopotamian mythology, etc is hard. It does appear to be in the Book of Genesis, however." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15156" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3531" RevisionGUID="9c3e8d88-a279-4a26-b41f-dd9967f4bde2" CreationDate="2018-03-18T01:50:31.190" UserId="108" Comment="added 101 characters in body; edited title" Text="Did the inhabitants of the ancient Near East believe in an ocean in the sky?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15159" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4566" RevisionGUID="953f634f-4108-4cad-b04a-308ee3b16d7e" CreationDate="2018-03-18T21:32:32.213" UserId="2682" Text="**The oversimplified, triple-diluted answer is that they used their Greek names.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But then, with the Question worded as it is, the answer is not justifiably that simple. The answer can be approached in two different ways: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - From inside the narrative world, in which we assume that the Trojans' depiction in the myths is accurate and thus the basis of what we should understand about them; and &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA; - From outside the narrative world, based on deductions of what the &#xD;&#xA;   people inhabiting the place supposedly called Troy were actually like &quot;IRL&quot; (&quot;in real life,&quot; as they say in video-game parlance) at the time that the Trojan War is supposed to have taken place.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Timeframe of the Latins and Their Language**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The events in question, if they did occur, would have transpired sometime in the 1200s BC. It is highly unlikely that, by then, anyone anywhere in the world was speaking Latin, which comes into any sort of prominence only about 400 years afterwards. In the narrative world there are a few different traditions regarding the tribe of the Latins, whose language would eventually give us the Roman names of the gods. All these traditions point toward a character named Latinos (Λατῖνος), whom the Romans called Latinus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Logically the language that was named after him should have began to develop no earlier than within his lifetime. In Greek mythology, Latinos' father is either Odysseus (a Greek king who fought in the Trojan War) or Herakles (who lived a generation before the war). One late interpretation (by Ioannes Lydos in the 6th century AD) of Hesiod's *Catalogues of Women* tries to make Latinos into an early figure, saying that he lived not long after the Flood of Deukalion, and that he was in fact the son of Zeus by a daughter of Deukalion, which would have meant he would have been long dead by the time Troy was under construction.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According the myths, the builders of Troy are essentially Greek colonists who settle in Asia Minor and establish a new kingdom there a short while before the Trojan War. Their culture and religion is, for the most part, indistinguishable from that of their enemies who eventually destroy their kingdom and its stronghold, and they worship the same gods in the same ways with similar priesthoods, rituals and prophecy customs. &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Since there would not have been Roman or Latin renditions of anyone's names available for the Trojans' use, the Trojans therefore would have used the Greek names of the gods. This may have changed very gradually after the war, following the migration to Latium of some of the surviving Trojans. In the Deukalionian Flood version in which the Latins have been around just as long as everyone else, the question becomes whether these Latins had so much influence on the shores of the Aegean Sea that the Greek settlers of Asia would have adopted their language for the names of Greek deities in the 13th century BC. Not impossible, but unlikely, and as far as the logic of the story goes, simply not how things were.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Dardanos, His Descendants and Their Religion**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is, however, a Roman tradition about the foundation of Troy which would disagree with what I just said. But let's start with the Greek version of *that* story. On the island of Samothrake, Elektra, one of the seven Pleiades, bore Zeus a son named Dardanos, who grew up in Arkadia in Greece, where he married a local princess named Khryse. It was during Dardanos' lifetime that Zeus sought to annihilate the human race in Deukalion's Flood. Dardanos escaped the deluge with most of his family, fleeing to his birthplace of Samothrake. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Robert Graves' book *The Greek Myths*, Khryse was a priestess of the &quot;Great Deities,&quot; whose images and other paraphernalia she brought with her from Arkadia to Samothrake, where, together with her husband, she introduced the cult of these gods. The two of them decided, however, to keep the names of the gods a sacred secret, thus creating or continuing the practice of *Mysteria* (Mysteries) in their honour. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While on Samothrake, Dardanos' brother and wife died and he decided to move to Asia, where he took the cult, sacra and *mysteria* of the otherwise unknown Great Gods with him. The Samothrakian cult in question is thought to have been in honour of gods called the Kabeiroi, whose rites were indeed so secretive that even ancient writers are wildly unclear as to who exactly they were, speculating that they might be the same as the Korybantes, the Kouretes, or the Daktyloi, who themselves are only slightly less mysterious, and none of whose epithets seem to be from the Greek language. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At any rate, Dardanos built a town, called Dardania, on the slopes of Mt Ida, establishing there at least some aspects of the religion he and his wife had imported from Arkadia to Samothrake. In Asia one divinity who was associated with Dardanos' and Khryse's Great Deities is Kybele (or Kybebe), who in Phrygia was known by the title &quot;Mother of the Gods.&quot; Because the Titaness Rhea was the mother of about half of the Twelve Olympians, she thus came to be identified with Kybele, who otherwise does not really have a Greek equivalent. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One image, or a set of images, in particular, supposedly representing the goddess Athena, became an important feature of Dardanos' new settlement. The image or images were called the *palladia* (or was only a singular *palladion*), which have/has several conflicting traditions regarding their/its origin. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dardanos had a grandson named Tros. After him the whole region came to be called Troas. Tros had a son named Ilos who built a city in the neighbourhood of Dardania. He named the city after himself Ilion (which in Latin becomes *Ilium*), from which we get the word *Iliad*. But Tros had been so famous that Ilion popularly came be known as Troy while &quot;Ilion&quot; remained as a more poetic title thereof. Ilos brought into his new city the palladion/palladia of his great-grandfather, making it/them a main feature of the city, linked to the preservation of the kingdom. If it/they was/were lost, Troy would fall.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The whole point here appears to be that there was an aspect of Trojan religion which was unique and known only to the Trojans (and perhaps Samothrakians too), with gods whose names almost nobody knew, and whose cult is supposed to have been preserved by Tros's descendants the Romans. Between them and the Phrygian Kybele, these may be gods whose names might have been neither Greek nor Roman (even in the narrative world), and if there was something like a Trojan language (whether in the narrative or IRL) then these may have been uniquely Trojan deities with Trojan names.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, back to the Roman tradition that I mentioned earlier: The Italian version of Dardanos is not an Arkadian or Samothrakian but an Etruscan, who migrated from Italy to Phrygia, where he then founded Dardania. He had a brother who moved to Samothrake. When they were parting ways, they divided between them their *Penates*, family's household gods. The idea here seems to be that Dardanos, originally an Italian, went with his *Penates* to the place where Troy was founded and his descendant Aeneas eventually brought them back &quot;home&quot; again to Italy. The point here is that thus the Trojans would not have been Greeks (like Dionysios of Halikarnassos insists that they were) but Italians, and hence would have used Etruscan names for the gods. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Roman mythology, Latinus' father is most commonly identified as the god Faunus, who does not have a neatly direct Greek equivalent. The Trojans who encountered him, then, logically would have had to use the Roman/Latin/Italian name for this deity unless, like happened in later mythography, they identified Faunus with the Greek Pan and called him by *that* Greek name.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Aeneid* there is another Roman god with no Greek equivalent, namely Tiberinus, the personification of the River Tiber. Trojans who knew about him, upon their entry into the region, would also have used his Italian name (unless they simply Hellenised it into Tiberinos).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**IRL**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In &quot;real life&quot; there does seem to have been a great city on the site that Homer and Virgil call Troy. Its real name, the language its people spoke and what their religion was all seem to be unknown. It seems like that there was something like a Trojan War thereat, or several wars. The Wikipedia article on [the Trojan language](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_language)&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; summarises this information really well, mentioning the theory proposed by Calvert Watkins that the language of the city was [Luwian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luwian_language). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Hittite connections made herein imply that the religion and deities of Troy were related to those of the Hittites. There are some very striking parallels between the Hittite [*Kingship in Heaven* myth](https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sitchin/guerradioses/guerradioses05a.htm) and the Greek theogonic story of the conflict between the sky-god Ouranos and his sons the Titans, followed by the Titanomachy. The differences, on the other hand, however, are jarring. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Trojan language article also mentions that the Trojans' allies in the *Iliad* speak different languages although there is no indication that the Trojans themselves have any trouble communicating with the besieging Greek army.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; However, this may merely be evidence that a fictional convention&#xD;&#xA;&gt; frequently used in narratives in later times had already been adopted&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by the poet of the *Iliad*: for example, Jason finds no language barrier&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with Medea in Colchis, and Trojan Aeneas converses without difficulty&#xD;&#xA;&gt; both with Punic Dido and with Latin Turnus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Unique Symmetry of Greek and Roman Parallels**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To make things even more colourful, in ancient times (long after Homer, however), the *Iliad* was translated into Latin. In the Latin version everyone (whether Greek or Trojan) uses the Roman names of the gods, and the Roman names of every other character and place too. It appears that there may also have been ancient translations of the *Aeneid* into Greek, wherein the reverse process would have occurred, all those Italians in Virgil's narrative referring to the gods (and everything else) by their *Greek* names. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the most remarkable and most salient features of ancient Roman religion and mythology is the extent to which they directly copied, virtually wholesale, the stories and characters from Greek religion and myth in order to adapt them to the language and culture of the Romans. No other culture seems to have done this on the scale that the Romans did, except perhaps for their Etruscan ancestors, from whom the Romans may have acquired this cultural borrowing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Unparalleled Translation and Interpretation Issues**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the Romans had their own version for the name of every single Greek deity, many of them distinctly Latin, like Zeus becoming Iuppiter; and others more obviously copy+pasted, like Apollon becoming Apollo, and Okeanos becoming Oceanus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As an illustration of how unique this makes the Romans, notice how we, writing in English, cannot perform the same sort of interpretation or translation of these deities into English or even Anglo-Saxon versions. Granted that that is because, for the most part, we don't know enough about the deities of the Angles and Saxons to do that. But say we tried to do this with, for instance, Norse gods as described in the Eddas. It might make for quirky new renditions of the *Iliad* and the *Aeneid* that would seem a touch on the absurd side and probably wouldn't make much sense of the original material. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Iliad*, we could make the mother of Achilles (whatever his name would be in Old Norse) into Dúfa, one of the nine daughters of the giant sea-god Ægir. Out of the nine, Dúfa's name is the closest I could (arbitrarily) get to the Greco-Roman *Thetis*, which is the actual name of Achilles' mother in the original myths. Thetis' father *is* indeed a giant sea-god named Nereus, and that's basically where the parallel ends, since Nereus has fifty daughters, not just nine, and he lives in the Mediterranean Sea rather than on an island in northern Europe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Aeneid*, Aeneas (Old Norse equivalent file not found) could become the son of the goddess Freyja, which perhaps would be less discrepant than the identification of Dúfa with Thetis. Both Venus (Aeneas' actual mother in the *Aeneid*) are associated with birds, and both drive chariots drawn by animals not usually used for such a job, but Freyja's association with sorcery is much more intense than any link that Venus might have with the practice thereof.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The point is that even we in English use either the Greek or the Roman versions of the names of these characters. And between the two versions, they are so interchangeable that we could have an English translation of the *Iliad* with Roman names or of the *Aeneid* with Greek names without at all impeding the narrative.         &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1. *Brought to my attention courtesy of Spencer, a fellow Mythology StackExchange user.*&lt;/sup&gt; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15160" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4559" RevisionGUID="a85e7700-851b-4c68-a876-3edbf00ef0ab" CreationDate="2018-03-18T22:18:58.370" UserId="4271" Comment="added 10 characters in body; edited title" Text="I remember a myth I read once. It talked of a man who was the only mortal to be taught prophecy, or some form of it, by Athena, Greek goddess of Wisdom. But I cannot recall the name of this man. Nor was I told how Athena, Greek goddess of Wisdom, came to know or learn prophecy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who taught Athena, Greek goddess of Wisdom, the art of prophecy? Was it taught to Athena, Greek goddess of Wisdom, by Pallas, Pallas's father Triton, Pallas's mother or some other manner of being?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who was this man that was taught by Athena, Greek goddess of Wisdom?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I ask this next question because prophecy is not usually associated with Athena, Greek goddess of Wisdom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did someone confuse myths, giving prophecy to Athena, Greek goddess of Wisdom?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15161" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4559" RevisionGUID="a85e7700-851b-4c68-a876-3edbf00ef0ab" CreationDate="2018-03-18T22:18:58.370" UserId="4271" Comment="added 10 characters in body; edited title" Text="Who was the man whom Athena, Greek goddess of Wisdom, gave the gift of prophecy, and from whom did Athena, Greek goddess of Wisdom, learn it from?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15164" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4566" RevisionGUID="88895134-f9b5-4634-a2f0-30237c4af001" CreationDate="2018-03-19T01:46:38.293" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; added info" Text="**The oversimplified, triple-diluted answer is that they used their Greek names.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But then, with the Question worded as it is, the answer is not justifiably so simple. The breakdown thereof can be approached in two different ways: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - From inside the narrative world, in which we assume that the Trojans' depiction in the myths is accurate and thus the basis of what we should understand about them; and &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA; - From outside the narrative world, based on deductions of what the &#xD;&#xA;   people inhabiting the place supposedly called Troy were actually like &quot;IRL&quot; (&quot;in real life,&quot; as they say in video-game parlance) at the time that the Trojan War is supposed to have taken place.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Timeframe of the Latins and Their Language**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The events in question, if they did occur, would have transpired sometime in the 1200s BC. It is highly unlikely that, by then, anyone anywhere in the world was speaking Latin, which comes into any sort of prominence only about 400 years afterwards. In the narrative world there are a few different traditions regarding the tribe of the Latins, whose language would eventually give us the Roman names of the gods. All these traditions point toward a character named Latinos (Λατῖνος), whom the Romans called Latinus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Logically the language that was named after him should have began to develop no earlier than within his lifetime. In Greek mythology, Latinos' father is either Odysseus (a Greek king who fought in the Trojan War) or Herakles (who lived a generation before the war). One late interpretation (by Ioannes Lydos in the 6th century AD) of Hesiod's *Catalogues of Women* tries to make Latinos into an earlier figure, saying that he lived not long after the Flood of Deukalion, and that he was in fact the son of Zeus by a daughter of Deukalion, which would have meant he was long dead by the time Troy was under construction.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the myths, the builders of Troy are essentially Greek colonists who settle in Asia Minor and establish a new kingdom there a short while before the Trojan War. Their culture and religion are, for the most part, indistinguishable from those of their enemies who eventually destroy their kingdom and its stronghold, and they worship the same gods in the same ways with similar priesthoods, rituals and prophecy customs. &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Since there would not have been Roman or Latin renditions of anyone's names available for the Trojans' use, the Trojans therefore would have used the Greek names of the gods. This may have changed very gradually after the war, following the migration to Latium of some of the surviving Trojans. In the Deukalionian Flood version in which the Latins have been around just as long as everyone else, the question becomes whether these Latins had so much influence on the shores of the Aegean Sea that the Greek settlers of Asia would have adopted their language for the names of Greek deities in the 13th century BC. Not impossible, but unlikely, and as far as the logic of the story goes, simply not how things were.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Dardanos, His Descendants and Their Religion**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is, however, a Roman tradition about the foundation of Troy which would disagree with what I just said. But let's start with the Greek version of *that* story. On the island of Samothrake, Elektra, one of the seven Pleiades, bore Zeus a son named Dardanos, who grew up in Arkadia in Greece, where he married a local princess named Khryse. It was during Dardanos' lifetime that Zeus sought to annihilate the human race in Deukalion's Flood. Dardanos escaped the deluge with most of his family, fleeing to his birthplace of Samothrake. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Robert Graves' book *The Greek Myths*, Khryse was a priestess of the &quot;Great Deities,&quot; whose images and other paraphernalia she brought with her from Arkadia to Samothrake, where, together with her husband, she introduced the cult of these gods. The two of them decided, however, to keep the names of the gods a sacred secret, thus creating or continuing the practice of *Mysteria* (Mysteries) in their honour. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While on Samothrake, Dardanos' brother and wife died and he decided to move to Asia, where he took the cult, sacra and *mysteria* of the otherwise unknown Great Gods with him. The Samothrakian cult in question is thought to have been in honour of gods called the Kabeiroi, whose rites were indeed so secretive that even ancient writers (e.g. Strabo) are wildly unclear as to who exactly they were, speculating that they might be the same as the Korybantes, the Kouretes, or the Daktyloi, who themselves are only slightly less mysterious, and none of whose epithets seem to be from the Greek language. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At any rate, Dardanos built a town, called Dardania, on the slopes of Mt Ida, establishing there at least some aspects of the religion he and his wife had imported from Arkadia to Samothrake. In Asia one divinity who was associated with Dardanos' and Khryse's Great Deities is Kybele (or Kybebe), who in Phrygia was known by the title &quot;Mother of the Gods.&quot; Because the Titaness Rhea was the mother of about half of the Twelve Olympians (and grandmother of just about all the rest of them), she thus came to be identified with Kybele, who otherwise does not really have a Greek equivalent. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One image, or a set of images, in particular, supposedly representing the goddess Athena, became an important feature of Dardanos' new settlement. The image or images were called the *palladia* (or was only a singular *palladion*), which have/has several conflicting traditions regarding their/its origin. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dardanos had a grandson named Tros. After him the whole region came to be called Troas. Tros had a son named Ilos who built a city in the neighbourhood of Dardania. He named the city after himself Ilion (which in Latin becomes *Ilium*), from which we get the word *Iliad*. But Tros had been so famous that his son's city popularly came be known as Troy while &quot;Ilion&quot; remained as its more poetic title. Ilos brought into his new city the palladion/palladia of his great-grandfather, making it/them a main feature of the city, linked to the preservation of the kingdom. If it/they was/were lost, Troy would fall. Ilos' grandson Priamos would be the city's last king.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The whole point here appears to be that there was an aspect of Trojan religion which was unique and known only to the Trojans (and perhaps Samothrakians too), with gods whose names almost nobody knew, and whose cult is supposed to have been preserved by Tros's descendants the Romans. Between them and the Phrygian Kybele, these may be gods whose names might have been neither Greek nor Roman (even in the narrative world), and if there was something like a Trojan language (whether in the narrative or IRL) then these may have been uniquely Trojan deities with Trojan names.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Certain aspects of Trojan culture are portrayed distinctively as Phrygian, such as the conical Phrygian cap worn by Prince Paris of Troy, and even by his (in)famous Greek lover/abductee Helen.  &#xD;&#xA;[![Helen Phrygian cap][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;It would make sense if the Trojans spoke Phrygian, in which language we know the name of at least one god: Dios, the sky-deity whose name corresponds remarkably well to &quot;Zeus,&quot; as noted by Herbert Jennings Rose in *A Handbook of Greek Mythology*. Perhaps the Trojans worshipped Phrygian deities (whose names generally translated easily into Greek?). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, back to the Roman tradition that I mentioned earlier: The Italian version of Dardanos is not an Arkadian or Samothrakian but an Etruscan, who migrated from Italy to Phrygia, where he then founded Dardania. He had a brother who moved to Samothrake. When they were parting ways, they divided between them their *Penates*, family's household gods. The idea here seems to be that Dardanos, originally an Italian, went with his *Penates* to the place where Troy was founded and his descendant Aeneas eventually brought them back &quot;home&quot; again to Italy. The point here is that thus the Trojans would not have been Greeks (like Dionysios of Halikarnassos insists that they were) but Italians, and hence would have used Etruscan names for the gods. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Roman mythology, Latinus' father is most commonly identified as the god Faunus, who does not have a neatly direct Greek equivalent. The Trojans who encountered him, then, logically would have had to use the Roman/Latin/Italian name for this deity unless, as was the case in later mythography, they identified Faunus with the Greek Pan and called him by *that* Greek name.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Aeneid* there is another Roman god with no Greek equivalent, namely Tiberinus, the personification of the River Tiber. Trojans who knew about him, upon their entry into the region, would also have used his Italian name (unless they simply Hellenised it into Tiberinos).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**IRL**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In &quot;real life&quot; there does seem to have been a great city on the site that Homer and Virgil call Troy. Its real name, the language its people spoke and what their religion was, all seem to be unknown. It seems like that there was something like a Trojan War thereat, or several wars. The Wikipedia article on [the Trojan language](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_language)&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; summarises this information really well, mentioning the theory proposed by Calvert Watkins that the language of the city was [Luwian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luwian_language). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Hittite connections made herein imply that the religion and deities of Troy were related to those of the Hittites. There are some very striking parallels between the Hittite [*Kingship in Heaven* myth](https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sitchin/guerradioses/guerradioses05a.htm) and the Greek theogonic story of the conflict between the sky-god Ouranos and his sons the Titans, followed by the Titanomachy. The differences, on the other hand, however, are jarring. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Trojan language article also mentions that the Trojans' allies in the *Iliad* speak different languages although there is no indication that the Trojans themselves have any trouble communicating with the besieging Greek army.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; However, this may merely be evidence that a fictional convention&#xD;&#xA;&gt; frequently used in narratives in later times had already been adopted&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by the poet of the *Iliad*: for example, Jason finds no language barrier&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with Medea in Colchis, and Trojan Aeneas converses without difficulty&#xD;&#xA;&gt; both with Punic Dido and with Latin Turnus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Unique Symmetry of Greek and Roman Parallels**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To make things even more colourful, in ancient times (long after Homer, however), the *Iliad* was translated into Latin. In the Latin version everyone (whether Greek or Trojan) uses the Roman names of the gods, and the Roman names of every other character and place too. It appears that there may also have been ancient translations of the *Aeneid* into Greek, wherein the reverse process would have occurred, all those Italians in Virgil's narrative referring to the gods (and everything else) by their *Greek* names. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the most remarkable and most salient features of ancient Roman religion and mythology is the extent to which they directly copied, virtually wholesale, the stories and characters from Greek religion and myth in order to adapt them to the language and culture of the Romans. No other culture seems to have done this on the scale that the Romans did, except perhaps for their Etruscan ancestors, from whom the Romans may have acquired this cultural borrowing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Unparalleled Translation and Interpretation Issues**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the Romans had their own version for the name of every single Greek deity, many of them distinctly Latin, like Zeus becoming Iuppiter; and others more obviously copy+pasted, like Apollon becoming Apollo, and Okeanos becoming Oceanus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As an illustration of how unique this makes the Romans, notice how we, writing in English, cannot perform the same sort of interpretation or translation of these deities into English or even Anglo-Saxon versions. Granted that that is because, for the most part, we don't know enough about the deities of the Angles and Saxons to do that. But say we tried to do this with, for instance, Norse gods as described in the Eddas. It might make for quirky new renditions of the *Iliad* and the *Aeneid* that would seem a touch on the absurd side and probably wouldn't make much sense of the original material. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Iliad*, we could make the mother of Achilles (whatever his name would be in Old Norse) into Dúfa, one of the nine daughters of the giant sea-god Ægir. Out of the nine, Dúfa's name is the closest I could (arbitrarily) get to the Greco-Roman *Thetis*, which is the actual name of Achilles' mother in the original myths. Thetis' father *is* indeed a giant sea-god named Nereus, and that's basically where the parallel ends, since Nereus has fifty daughters, not just nine, and he lives in the Mediterranean Sea rather than on an island in northern Europe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Aeneid*, Aeneas (Old Norse equivalent file not found) could become the son of the goddess Freyja, which perhaps would be less discrepant than the identification of Dúfa with Thetis. Both Venus (Aeneas' actual mother in the *Aeneid*) are associated with birds, and both drive chariots drawn by animals not usually used for such a job, but Freyja's association with sorcery is much more intense than any link that Venus might have with the practice thereof.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The point is that even we in English use either the Greek or the Roman versions of the names of these characters. And between the two versions, they are so interchangeable that we could have an English translation of the *Iliad* with Roman names or of the *Aeneid* with Greek names without at all impeding the narrative.         &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1. *Brought to my attention courtesy of Spencer, a fellow Mythology StackExchange user.*&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/vr4R2.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15165" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4568" RevisionGUID="ae4eea6e-4242-44e5-a9bc-4ab1d26a6d7b" CreationDate="2018-03-19T06:35:01.813" UserId="3564" Text="Not sure if my entry helps because its not connected with Near East but there are mentions in the ancient texts of the East (Hindu tradition) such as Padma Purana or Srimad Bhagavtam, where you will find detailed description of 7 great oceans in the Universe. They are not specifically in the &quot;sky&quot; as you mentioned if you are referring to our sky here on Earth. But there are regions in creation that are referred to as &quot;Spiritual sky&quot; in these texts. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Out of these 7 Oceans, the 4 primary ones are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Ksira sagar (also called Milk Ocean due to the color of the water)&#xD;&#xA;2. Karana sagar (also called Causal Ocean as it has a role to play in the creation of material world)&#xD;&#xA;3. Garbodaka Ocean (fills half of the universe)&#xD;&#xA;4. Ananta Shesha Sagar (plays a role in the dissolution of the universe)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More reading: [https://iskcondesiretree.com/profiles/blogs/the-4-transcendental-oceans][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are also many mentions of &quot;River Viraja&quot; which is a river that divides the material world from the spiritual world. It is said that millions of universes float on these waters. There is a description of the connection it has with the soul also. It's says that upon the death of the body, the souls of the perfected beings pass through the higher realms of the universe, penetrates the wall of this universe, goes beyond River Viraja, through planets that lie on the other side before its final destination in the spiritual sky.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is a link where you can read more:&#xD;&#xA;[https://vaniquotes.org/wiki/Viraja_is_a_river_that_divides_the_material_world_from_the_spiritual_world][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hope this helps.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://iskcondesiretree.com/profiles/blogs/the-4-transcendental-oceans&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://vaniquotes.org/wiki/Viraja_is_a_river_that_divides_the_material_world_from_the_spiritual_world" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15166" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4569" RevisionGUID="63a8759e-c146-4507-a0cf-73b652e2b94a" CreationDate="2018-03-19T13:12:14.770" UserId="1241" Text="It is tradition that tells us that St. Patrick banished all the snakes out of Ireland. The fact is that Ireland never had any snakes to be banished! So what is this legend trying to tell us? St. Patrick rid Ireland of the serpentine snake of paganism to say the least.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; No Snakes in Ireland&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The St. Patrick mythology includes the claim that he banished snakes from Ireland. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; It's true no snakes exist on the island today, Freeman said. But they never did.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ireland, after all, is surrounded by icy ocean waters—much too cold to allow snakes to migrate from Britain or anywhere else. [National Geographic News][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what is this legend trying to convey to us? The snakes could be a metaphor for something else. This metaphor could be symbolized as paganism, evil, or the Devil. You decide?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Since snakes often represent evil in literature, &quot;when Patrick drives the snakes out of Ireland, it is symbolically saying he drove the old, evil, pagan ways out of Ireland [and] brought in a new age,&quot; Freeman said. - [National Geographic News][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This metaphor could be **demons**?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But what if the snakes were actually metaphors for evil spirits? I believe this was the case – in the Gospels Our Lord uses snakes as a metaphor for demons when He tells the apostles that when they will evangelize people and bring them to Christianity – they will walk among the nastiest of serpents and yet they will be unharmed because they have His protection.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; What if St Patrick was actually an exorcist who exorcised Ireland of ‘snakes’ or demons? If indeed it was the case then St Patrick was genuinely heroic, the real snakes that slither through the grass can only harm us physically, but an evil spirit that tempts us to do harm to others and ourselves to the point where we corrupt our souls can mean we may lose our souls for all eternity, a point made by Our Lord when He warns us not to be afraid of they who will kill our corporal fleshy body, but they who will kill our souls. - [&quot;Did St. Patrick really banish snakes from Ireland? The real story could be more darker.&quot;][2] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a Catholic Bishop St. Patrick definitely had the authority to be an exorcist in all of Ireland. It is most probable the snakes symbolized  evil and paganism as different side of a coin. Just do not tell the Leprechauns I said that. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Pagans: The Metaphorical Snakes**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; So unless St. Patrick couldn't tell a snake from a lizard, where does the legend come from?&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Scholars suggest the tale is allegorical. Serpents are symbols of evil in the Judeo-Christian tradition—the Bible, for example, portrays a snake as the hissing agent of Adam and Eve's fall from grace.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The animals were also linked to heathen practices—so St. Patrick's dramatic act of snake eradication can be seen as a metaphor for his Christianizing influence. - [Did St. Patrick Really Drive Snakes Out of Ireland?][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/03/090316-st-patricks-day-facts.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2016/03/17/did-st-patrick-really-banish-snakes-from-ireland/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/03/140315-saint-patricks-day-2014-snakes-ireland-nation/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15167" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4570" RevisionGUID="a143344e-d7d1-446c-a123-4d380494fb5b" CreationDate="2018-03-19T14:28:48.127" UserId="4271" Text="Prayers are sent to gods, so thus, the Greeks believed that their prayers were heard. But does that hold true for casual conversation or when curses were said in their name?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Zeus was with Io, he put a cloud up to hid his presence from Hera. Is this because he knew she was looking for him, or was it just a precaution?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15168" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4570" RevisionGUID="a143344e-d7d1-446c-a123-4d380494fb5b" CreationDate="2018-03-19T14:28:48.127" UserId="4271" Text="Do the gods know when they are being watched, or their name said?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15169" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4570" RevisionGUID="a143344e-d7d1-446c-a123-4d380494fb5b" CreationDate="2018-03-19T14:28:48.127" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|hera|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15170" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4570" RevisionGUID="73dea9b7-0dba-4227-8552-bd8ef79c048f" CreationDate="2018-03-19T14:34:30.263" UserId="4271" Comment="added 22 characters in body" Text="Prayers are sent to gods, so thus, the Greeks believed that their prayers were heard to some extent. But does that extent hold true for casual conversation or when curses were said in their name?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Zeus was with Io, he put a cloud up to hid his presence from Hera. Is this because he knew she was looking for him, or was it just a precaution?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15171" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2959" RevisionGUID="47a3986c-d75a-4551-bda7-a95a64e89554" CreationDate="2018-03-19T15:31:39.270" UserId="4271" Comment="fixed spelling, added to myth" Text="The beginning of the Odyssey, the Olympian gods all want to allow Odysseus to return from his long exile, only Poseidon is against that.  So Zeus, as king of the gods,  overrules Poseidon on Athena's request.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Poseidon hates Odysseus because he blinded the kyklops (cyclops) Polyphemus.  Odysseus did this when Polyphemus captured him and his crew mates, killed and ate some of them, and locked the rest in his cave with the intention to eat them later. He gave the kyklops wine, got him drunk, and speared his eye with the help of three of his remaining crew mates.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What did the Olympian gods other than Poseidōn think of Poseidōn's attitude?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Did they believe Poseidōn was right to avenge Odysseus by putting him to all the hardships he had to suffer, only at that point the vengeance was going on for too long and against Odysseus's eventual fate, so Poseidōn would have to stop now?  &#xD;&#xA;2. Or did they instead think that Odysseus can't be blamed at all for what he did, because he had to save his crewmates from an attack that wasn't their fault, only at this point it would be useless to argue with the stubborn Poseidōn and the best thing that could be done is to let Odysseus home and let the matter drop?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(I am not trying to restrict the question to the Odyssey, you can consider other accounts of this story too if they matter.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15175" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2959" RevisionGUID="817b15e1-cd15-4d0d-bdd1-38f75d0206bb" CreationDate="2018-03-19T16:20:30.800" UserId="197" Comment="that was entirely uncalled for. " Text="The beginning of the Odyssey, the Olympian gods all want to allow Odysseus to return from his long exile, only Poseidōn is against that. So Zeus, as king of the gods, overrules Poseidōn on Athēnē's request.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Poseidōn hates Odysseus because he blinded the kyklōps Polyphēmos. Odysseus did this when Polyphēmos captured him and his crewmates, killed and ate some of them, and locked the rest in his cave with the intention to eat them later. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What did the Olympian gods other than Poseidōn think of Poseidōn's attitude?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Did they believe Poseidōn was right to avenge Odysseus by putting him to all the hardships he had to suffer, only at that point the vengeance was going on for too long and against Odysseus's eventual fate, so Poseidōn would have to stop now?  &#xD;&#xA;2. Or did they instead think that Odysseus can't be blamed at all for what he did, because he had to save his crewmates from an attack that wasn't their fault, only at this point it would be useless to argue with the stubborn Poseidōn and the best thing that could be done is to let Odysseus home and let the matter drop?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(I am not trying to restrict the question to the Odyssey, you can consider other accounts of this story too if they matter.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15176" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4572" RevisionGUID="0921418f-cf6f-42db-bbf0-2975a78db329" CreationDate="2018-03-19T16:30:03.760" UserId="4884" Text="The list actually contains 24 gods: 12 from Tavastia and 12 from Karelia. This is not a full answer as I'm not an expert in the subject, but roughly translated the [list](https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suomalaisten_muinaiset_jumalat#Ep%C3%A4jumalien_luettelo_k%C3%A4%C3%A4nnettyn%C3%A4_nykysuomelle) goes as follows.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Tavastia&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; TAPIO metsästä pyydykset soi &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tapio brought the catch from the forest&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Tapio](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tapio_(spirit)) was the king of forests and hunters prayed to him before a hunt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ja AHTI vedestä kaloja toi&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and Ahti brought fish from the water&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ahti](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahti) is sometimes the god of the sea, but more commonly the name is used for persons in folk stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; VÄINÄMÖINEN virret takoi &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Väinämöinen forged the songs&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Väinämöinen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A4in%C3%A4m%C3%B6inen) is a demigod or a hero who appears in many folk stories. Typically he is described as an old wise man who is skilled in singing spells and plays a [kantele](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kantele). Sometimes he is described as the god of songs and poetry. He was an inspiration for J. R. R. Tolkien's Gandalf.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; RAHKO kuun mustaksi jakoi.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Rahko divided the moon black&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rahko is a creature who paints the moon black with tar to cause the moon to wane.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; LIEKKIÖ ruohot, juuret ja puut hallitsi ja senkaltaiset muut&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Liekkiö ruled grasses, roots and trees and others of that kind&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Liekkiö is a spirit similar to a Will-o'-the-wisp. Sometimes a ghost of a child who has been killed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ILMARINEN rauhan ja ilman teki ja matkamiehet edesvei&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ilmarinen made peace and air and took travelers forward&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ilmarinen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilmarinen) is a god or demigod smith. Sometimes he is described as the god of wind, weather and air.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; TURSAS antoi voiton sodasta&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tursas gave victory in war&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Tursas or Iku-Turso](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iku-Turso) is usually thought of as a sea monster, but sometimes also a god of war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; KRATTI murheen piti tavarasta&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kratti worried of property&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kratti is a screaming ghost that lies above treasure hidden underground.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; TONTTU huoneen menon hallitsi, kuin PIRU monta villitsi&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tonttu ruled the ceremony of the room when Piru drove many wild&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A [Tonttu, or Nisse](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nisse_(folklore)), is a creature in Nordic folklore. They look somewhat similar to garden gnomes. Nowadays they are mostly associated with Christmas as the helpers of Santa Claus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Piru is a demon or an evil spirit. The name is also used for Satan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; KAPEET myös heiltä kuun söivät.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Kaves also ate the moon from them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kave (&quot;kapeet&quot; is plural, &quot;kave&quot; is the singular form) is a spirit that is usually thought to restore the moon. According to this list however, they eat the moon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; KALEVANPOJAT niityt ja muut löivät &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sons of Kaleva created the fields and others&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sons of Kaleva are ancient giants who were the early settlers of the land. They left when Christianity spread to their lands. In some earlier sources they seem to be human heroes (Väinämöinen, for example, is sometimes one of them). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Karelia&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; RONGOTEUS ruista antoi, PELLONPEKKO ohran kasvun soi. VIRANKANNOS kauran kaitsi, muutoin oltiin kaurasta paitsi. ÄKRÄS herneet, pavut, nauriit loi, kaalit, liinat ja hamput edestoi.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Rongoteus gave rye, Pellonpekko granted the growth of barley. Virankannos tended oat, otherwise [people] were without oat. Äkräs peas, beans, turnips created, cabbages, flax and hemp brought forth&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rongoteus, Pellonpekko, Virankannos and Äkräs are spirits or gods who made different crops grow.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; KÖNTYS huhdat ja pellot teki.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Köntys cleared woodlands [for farming] and made fields&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not much is known of Köntys. He/she/it doesn't appear in other sources, at least not with the same name (&quot;köntys&quot; means a clumsy person in modern Finnish). The religious scholar Uno Harva believes he was a creature similar to the sons of Kaleva.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ja kun kevätkylvö kylvettiin, silloin UKON malja juotiin. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And when the spring plantings were sown, then Ukko's toast was drunk.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ukko](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukko) was the god of weather, thunder and harvest. He was the most significant of the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The word &quot;ukko&quot; means &quot;old man&quot;. This is believed to be an euphemism to avoid referring to him by his real name. It is thought that Perkele -- which in modern use means Devil -- might have originally been Ukko.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kun RAUNI Ukon nainen härskyi, jalosti Ukko pohjasta pärskyi. Se siis antoi ilman ja vedentulon.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When Rauni, Ukko's woman sprayed, nobly Ukko from bottom splashed. That then brought air and rain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This line is a bit cryptic and has different interpretations.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The name &quot;Rauni&quot; doesn't appear in other sources. One interpretation is that Rauni is the wife of Ukko, but it could refer to Ukko himself too. The line could be translated as &quot;the woman of Rauni ukko&quot; (as mentioned above, &quot;ukko&quot; means &quot;old man&quot;) rather than &quot;Rauni, Ukko's woman&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The meaning might be that Rauni is a goddes of thunder and the spraying and splashing in the line refers to an argument between her and Ukko creating storms. It is however also speculated that she might be a goddes of fertility and the line is about [hieros gamos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hieros_gamos).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The wife of Ukko is sometimes called Akka, which means &quot;old woman&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; KEKRI se lisäsi karjan kasvun &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kekri improved growth of cattle&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kekri usually refers to a celebration held in autumn. Agricola's list is the only source for it meaning a god, and modern researchers believe that Agricola was mistaken.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; HIISI metsäläisistä soi voiton &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hiisi granted victory of the people of the forest&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Hiisi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiisi) originally meant a sacred grove or other place of worship, but later came to mean some kind of an evil spirit. The word is often used as a translation for &quot;goblin&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; VEDENEMÄ vei kalat verkkoon. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Vedenemä took fish to a net.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Vedenemä, or Veden emo (literally &quot;waters mother&quot;), is a water spirit that fishers asked for luck in fishing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; NYYRIKKI oravat antoi metsästä. HITTAVAINEN toi jänikset pensaasta.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Nyyrikki gave squirrels from the forest. Hittavainen brought rabbits from the bush.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nyyrikki and Hittavainen are spirits who help hunters.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15178" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4573" RevisionGUID="ad4bba2b-49db-49dc-b0b3-2782516c221d" CreationDate="2018-03-19T19:33:23.203" UserId="4271" Text="If I had to take a gamble, I would say it has something to do with the Hind of Ceryneia. This was Heracles's third task, to catch the uncatchable deer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In one version, he tricked the deer in someway and managed to be in a position to capture it. At that point, Artemis shows up and Heracles tells the goddess that he will release it as soon as King Eresteus declares his labor complete. Artemis lets him and he does as promised.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, here is my gamble, as I am unsure how to word this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The author of this passage could have represented Heracles as a deer because of the fact he did the impossible in the myth." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15179" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3403" RevisionGUID="cda7e25c-ebe1-4537-966f-e45babaa582c" CreationDate="2018-03-19T21:31:10.580" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; corrected spelling" Text="There is a surprisingly modern collective response—or rather, *range* of responses—to this in ancient times. The 3 options listed below define a spectrum which could be described as moving from least to medium to most &quot;in-universe.&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**1. Those myths and legends featuring mind-blowingly extraordinary stuff, such as the gods' trysts with humans, are just fictitious yarns with which the poets think to amuse themselves.**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Much like at present day, there were philosophers who, perceiving themselves as more learned than the generally more illiterate populace, did not much share the classical mythographers' enthusiasm regarding the stories of rather human-like deities colliding with monsters and heroes in the realms of ordinary mortals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Miracle and Natural Law in Graeco-Roman and Early Christian Thought,* Robert M. Grant&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; lays out Lucian of Samosata's position on the matter (on [pp. 71-72](https://books.google.com/books?id=KLFMAwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA71#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false)). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;In his *Lover of Lies* Lucian vigorously attacks the &quot;deceivers&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of antiquity&quot;—Herodotus, Ctesias (the author of the fantastic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Persica*), and the poets, including Homer. They tell such stories as the castration of Uranus (such stories were often under attack), the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bonds of the giants, the metamorphoses of Zeus, and so on. These are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;dreadful and portentous myths&quot;. In opposition to stories of divine&#xD;&#xA;&gt; healings Lucian claims that those who tell them and defend them are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reasoning from false premises; they &quot;drive in a nail with a nail&quot;;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they cannot prove the presence of divine activity. To this objection&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his opponents reply that disbelief in their stories implies disbelief&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in the gods. Lucian answers that on the contrary he worships the gods&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and takes note of their healings, which are actually effected by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; medicines and physicians. Asclepius himself healed men in the same&#xD;&#xA;&gt; way.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Grant is careful to note, however, that in Lucian's time, the 100s AD, this writer was unique for having a perspective as stark as this. For a philosophical viewpoint in this same vein, posited centuries before Lucian, see the section `Centaurs` below. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**2. There is a kernel of truth in these otherwise incredible fictions, but the real deal needs to be filtered out of the silliness surrounding this beeswax. Some of these things happened and some of these creatures existed but not necessarily in the manner related to us by those mythographers.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Oh, and people these days are rascals and reprobates*** [*see more below*]***!***   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [*Description of Greece* 8.2.4-7](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Paus.+8.2), Pausanias offers his opinion on the issue by way of his visit to Arkadia [Arcadia]. Lykaon [Lycaon], one of Arkadia's earliest kings, is supposed to have been turned into a wolf by his own grandfather, none other than Zeus, after the god had visited his house for a meal:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;For the men of those days, because of their righteousness and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; piety, were guests of the gods, eating at the same board; the good&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were openly honored by the gods, and sinners were openly visited with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their wrath. As a matter of fact, in those days men were changed to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gods, who down to the present day have honours paid to them—Aristaios&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Aristaeus], Britomartis of Crete, Herakles [Heracles] the son of Alkmene,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Amphiaraos the son of Oikles, and besides these Polydeukes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Polydeuces] and Kastor [Castor].&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;So one might believe that Lykaon was turned into a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beast, and Niobe, the daughter of Tantalos, into a stone. But at the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; present time, when sin has grown to such a height and has been&#xD;&#xA;&gt; spreading over every land and every city, no longer do men turn into&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gods, except in the flattering words addressed to despots, and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wrath of the gods is reserved until the sinners have departed to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; next world.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;All through the ages, many events that have occurred in the past,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and even some that occur today, have been generally discredited&#xD;&#xA;&gt; because of the lies built up on a foundation of fact. It is said, for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; instance, that ever since the time of Lykaon a man has changed into a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wolf at the sacrifice to Zeus Lykaios [Lycaeus], but that the change&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is not for life; if, when he is a wolf, he abstains from human flesh,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after nine years he becomes a man again, but if he tastes human flesh&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he remains a beast for ever.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Similarly too it is said that Niobe on Mount Sipylos sheds tears&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in the season of summer. I have also heard that the griffins have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; spots like the leopard, and that the Tritons speak with human voice,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; though others say that they blow through a shell that has been bored.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Those who like to listen to the miraculous are themselves apt to add&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to the marvel, and so they ruin truth by mixing it with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; falsehood.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his poem *Phainomena*, from four hundred years prior to Pausanias, Aratus expands on this idea of human wickedness resulting in the disappearance of the gods. This divine departure is based on a prediction made thereof by Hesiod four hundred years before Aratus, in Hesiod's own poem *Works and Days*. For more detail on that, see my [MoreStories~inUniverse Answer](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/855/what-was-the-explanation-in-greek-mythology-for-the-absence-of-their-deities/3404#3404).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**3. *Absence of the deities?! What're you* on *about?* Without a doubt I saw one recently. And yes, since you bring him up, it *was*, in fact, Dionysus.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The gods' escape from the world was definitely *not* the view concerning the behaviour of the deities in the popular culture of the period in question, neither in the Hellenistic period nor in Roman times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is so much so the case that a philosopher contemporaneous with both Lucian of Samosata and Pausanias—who argues that Zeus being so unmistakably human-like as depicted in the arts is absurd—seems to be, ironically, the most explicit source of Roman-era sightings of Greek gods, whom he himself claims to have beheld. According to Grant ([p. 69](https://books.google.com/books?id=KLFMAwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA69#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false)): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A later Middle Platonist, Maximus of Tyre (c. 180), is equally&#xD;&#xA;&gt; confused. On the one hand, he expresses his belief in divine&#xD;&#xA;&gt; omnipotence and proves it by the story that Zeus once tripled the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; length of a night. He states that in his own time Asclepius is working&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cures, and tells of sailors who heard and saw the god **Dionysus**,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; although other sailors only heard him. He himself has seen the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Dioscuri** {*Kastor and Polydeukes, mentioned in the Pausanias quote above*}, as well as **Asclepius**, &quot;not in a dream&quot;, and **Heracles**, &quot;a real appearance&quot;. He firmly believes in the activity of demons {*meaning something more like the Roman* genii *in this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; case*}. On the other hand the Dioscuri whom he saw were shining stars&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (this makes his testimony difficult to evaluate), and he rejects the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; poets' pictures of the gods, which are &quot;credible because of their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; charm, but incredible because of their paradoxical nature&quot;. Other&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stories from the paradoxographical literature are &quot;difficult to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; believe&quot;, and therefore contain an allegorical meaning.   &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;(*With&#xD;&#xA;&gt; my emphases and my {notes}*)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;THEREFORE NOT ABSENT&#xD;&#xA;====================&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The explanation back then was variegated in a quite similar way to questions like these about deities and their activities now: some take them for granted (moreover reporting experiences therewith), and some are selectively skeptical, while others throw them out almost altogether.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The writings and ruminations of the philosophers tend to occupy mostly the timeframe between Herodotus and the early centuries of the Christian era. For the most part, though, during the period you've asked about—between Homer and Herodotus—gods, heroes and cryptids abounded in the world of mortals. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dead Heroes Fighting Alongside Gods at the Battle of Marathon&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most vivid instance of the kind of divine appearances we're looking for is actually attested by Herodotus himself, writing about an event which is supposed to have taken place around the time he himself was born. Together with other ancient writers and artists he has a number of divinities featuring as participants in the **490 BC** Battle of Marathon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Battle of Marathon][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Athenian Pheidippides (a.k.a. Philippides), was sent by his fellow citizens to courier a message for help from the Spartans against the oncoming Persian military forces. A professional long-distance runner, Pheidippides completed the journey between Athens and Sparta the day after he had begun it. Upon his return from Sparta to the Athenians he reported to his fellows that, on his way, while rounding Mt Parthenion near Tegea, he had been accosted by the god **Pan**. The god sent him to ask the Athenians why they did not venerate him, even though he had always been a friend to them and evermore would be so. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The word &quot;panic&quot; is derived from *panikos*, a seizure of frenzied fear specifically inspired by Pan. At the critical point in the Battle of Marathon, Pan appeared and instilled the Persians with *panikos*, thus costing them the victory. In gratitude the Athenians dedicated a temple to the god, performing annual sacrifices in his honour, as well as a [*Lampadephoria*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lampadephoria), a &quot;torch-bearing&quot; relay race.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Constructed around the same time in the Athenian Agora was a building called the *Stoa Poikile*, &quot;Painted Porch.&quot; Contained therein was a mural portraying the Battle of Marathon, with a depiction of the goddess **Athena** and the god **Herakles** fighting alongside the Greeks against the Persians. Also present at the battle was the dead hero **Theseus**, who had been king of Athens at the time that Herakles was a mortal man. In the painting he is represented as emerging from the Underworld, returning from the dead. **Marathon**, a grandson of the sea-god Poseidon after whom the plain of Marathon was named before the time of Herakles and Theseus, was likewise present at the battle. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Writing more than 500 years later, Plutarch says that: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In after times... the Athenians were moved to honour Theseus as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a demigod, especially by the fact that many of those who fought at&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Marathon against the Medes thought they saw an apparition of Theseus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in arms rushing on in front of them against the Barbarians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Pausanias' description of the Stoa Poikile painting, he also mentions a certain mysterious man dressed in rustic attire who used a plough to kill many of the Persians before suddenly disappearing, never to be seen again. Upon searching for him the Athenians were instructed by an oracle to grant divine honours to **Ekhetlaios** [Echetlaeus], &quot;[He] Of the Plough.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;GIANTS&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Regarding the giant boxer Kleomedes of Astypalaia, see the section on `Superhuman Athletes` in see my [MoreStories~inUniverse Answer](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/855/what-was-the-explanation-in-greek-mythology-for-the-absence-of-their-deities/3404#3404).&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Makrobioi** [Macrobii] **and the Syrbotai** [Syrbotae]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The modern term *Ethiopia* comes from Latin *Aethiopia*, which derives from Greek *Aithiopia*, which was a very fluid term in ancient times, often referring to the region that is now East African Sudan (rather than the country that is currently named Ethiopia) but sometimes to the entire African continent and even parts of Arabia and India, insomuch as these places were known to the Greeks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Homer's time there was believed to be, in Aithiopia, a nation of virtuous people who never died, dwelling in a land of endless summertime and enjoying the company of the Greek gods, who visited them for an annual feast.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later on Herodotus would write of a group of Aithiopes [&quot;Ethiopians&quot;] called the Makrobioi, &quot;Long-Lifers&quot; or &quot;Long-Lived&quot; Ones, because their average lifespan was 120 years. They, he says, were the tallest, most beautiful people in the world. They were also so wealthy that they fettered their prisoners in chains of gold.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pliny the Elder, a Roman writing in the 1st Century AD, says that in the vicinity of the Makrobioi lived an Aithiopian tribe called the Syrbotai, whose average height exceeded eight cubits (twelve feet). Krates of Pergamos, writing a couple of centuries previous to this, is Pliny's source for this people. If Herodotus is aware of the Syrbotai, for his statement about the Makrobioi to be consistent, it would have to mean that the Makrobioi are at least as tall as these 3.6m-tall giants, if not more so.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Kynokephaloi (and the Saint Who Carried Christ)**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going back to the era of Homer, Hesiod writes of the Hemikynoi, &quot;Half-Dogs,&quot; a proud race of Anubis-like people who had dogs' heads and dwelt in the same fluidly-defined region of &quot;Aithiopia.&quot; Later on they were dubbed Kynokephaloi, &quot;Dog-Heads,&quot; which the Romans Latinised into *Cynocephali*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As the Roman Empire became increasingly Christianised, these creatures came to be perceived as devourers of human flesh. By this point they were associated with a region somewhere on the border of Libya and Egypt, from which they were called the Marmaritae and were even said to be gigantic monsters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are two main variant traditions about the legendary St Khristophoros [Christopher], the &quot;Carrier of Khristos [Christ].&quot; In both, he was a giant who lived during the reign of a Roman Emperor, either Decius (mid 200s AD) or Maximinus II Daia (early 300s AD). In the more culturally Latinised Western Christian tradition, Khristophoros was very anachronistically said to have been a Canaanite giant, one of the Anakim who are mentioned in the Torah. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Eastern Orthodox tradition, which is more heavily influenced by Greek culture, Khristophoros belonged to the gigantic variety of the Kynokephaloi. A version of his tale says that he prayed to acquire a completely human form, and his prayer was answered, in which case he became the completely humanoid giant of the Western tradition. Nonetheless many Eastern religious icons depict him, as a full-fledged saint, still sporting his original canine features.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![St Christopher Dog-Head][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Down into the time of Augustinus Hipponensis [St Augustine], one of Khristophoros' fellow Africans, there was speculation about whether creatures like the Dog-Heads had human souls which could thus receive salvation. In the European imagination for centuries thereafter, this region of Africa was presumed to be inhabited by these Kynokephaloi, whom Hesiod says are the children of the earth-goddess Gaia either by Poseidon or by Zeus's Egyptian son Epaphos [Epaphus].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Book 4 of his *Historiai*, Herodotus mentions the Kynokephaloi, locating them in the western portions of Libya together with some ordinary animals, as well as donkeys with horns, and headless people whose faces were in their chests. Pliny calls this headless tribe the Blemmyai [Blemmyae], citing Herodotus' contemporary Ktesias as his source for information on them. The Blemmyai became another favourite of mediaeval European folklore, although the same name was applied also to a nation of ordinary human nomads who occupied eastern Africa before the collapse of the Roman Empire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;IMMORTALS&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Regarding the gods Pan and Herakles, and the goddess Athena, see the section `Dead Heroes Fighting Alongside Gods at the Battle of Marathon` above.  &#xD;&#xA;For more on Herakles, see #3, above, as well as the section `Theagenes, Born Divine` in my [MoreStories~inUniverse Answer](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/855/what-was-the-explanation-in-greek-mythology-for-the-absence-of-their-deities/3404#3404), as well as, in that same Answer, the section `Euthymos, the Ghostbuster` for the river-god Kaikinos [Caecinus].  &#xD;&#xA;For the god Asklepios [Asclepius] and the twin deities called the Dioskouroi [Dioscuri], see #3, above, again.     &#xD;&#xA;Regarding the gods Zeus Ammon and Apollo, see the section `Semi-Divine Royalty` also in the [MoreStories~inUniverse Answer](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/855/what-was-the-explanation-in-greek-mythology-for-the-absence-of-their-deities/3404#3404).&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To speak especially technically, Herodotus does in fact mention &quot;Immortals,&quot; *Athanatoi*, in the *Historiai* 7.31, but alright, to be fair, he *is* referring to an obviously mortal human military unit of the Achaemenid Empire, particularly under Khshayarsha [Xerxes] I the Great, a contingent whose number was always kept numbered at 10,000 men.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;CENTAURS&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *The First Fossil Hunters: Paleontology in Greek and Roman Times*, Adrienne Mayor&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; (pp. 221-222) fleshes out the perspective of philosophers living during and after Herodotus' time:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;*On Unbelievable Tales* was written by a friend and follower of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aristotle known as Palaephatus (a pen name that roughly translates as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;ancient tales&quot;)...&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Centaurs ... were a focus of tension between the logic of popular&#xD;&#xA;&gt; belief in marvels and philosophers' belief in immutable principles of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; nature. Myth accorded Centaurs the status of a viable species.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Empedocles suggested that Centaur-like creatures once existed but died&#xD;&#xA;&gt; out as monsters unfit for survival; later, Aristotle and Lucretius&#xD;&#xA;&gt; vigorously denied that such hybrids could ever exist...&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Plunging into the Centaur debate, Palaephatus ... articulates a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; principle of unchanging species: &quot;If there ever were such animals,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; then they would exist today.&quot; But not only does his statement&#xD;&#xA;&gt; contradict ancient knowledge that some real animals had gone extinct,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his wording leaves the door open for relict Centaur &quot;sightings&quot; and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; atavistic births that would prove their existence in the past... And&#xD;&#xA;&gt; indeed, live Centaurs *were* reported in the Roman era.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An entire chapter entitled &quot;Centaur Bones&quot; offers more reports of live Centaur sightings. As part of it (pp. 239-240) says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[H]ybrid beasts combining contradictory categories (including&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bird-mammal griffins of chapter 1) were singled out by the circle of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; orthodox natural philosophers as impossible. But while Aristotle, his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; follower Palaephatus, and Lucretius heaped scorn on the viability of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mixed species, especially Centaurs, writers like Aelian, Phlegon of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tralles, and others kept an open mind about seemingly incredible&#xD;&#xA;&gt; creatures, allowing the interplay of imagination and skepticism to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fill in the blanks of the unknown. Aelian, for example, wondered&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whether time and nature might really have produced populations of such&#xD;&#xA;&gt; strange creatures, just as the myths claimed. If Centaurs were&#xD;&#xA;&gt; actually once prevalent in certain places and not just figments of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; folklore, Aelian reasoned (echoing Empedocles) that they must have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; been at least a temporary fauna of the deep past.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Palaephatus' authoritative assertion in the fourth century&#xD;&#xA;&gt; B.C.—that if Centaurs ever did exist, then they would still be seen&#xD;&#xA;&gt; alive—was given literal expression in a rash of Centaur sightings in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Roman period. During the reign of Claudius (A.D. 41-54) officials&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in Arabia declared that a small herd of Centaurs still inhabited&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Saune, a remote mountain wilderness infested by poisonous plants.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Despite the danger, one ... was captured and transported to Egypt as a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gift for the emperor. The Egyptians fed the wild Centaur a traditional&#xD;&#xA;&gt; diet of raw meat, but it could not tolerate the change in altitude and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; perished. The Egyptians had the corpse embalmed and shipped to Rome,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; where the emperor Claudius exhibited the marvel in his palace. Pliny&#xD;&#xA;&gt; went with friends to see the spectacle: the Centaur was completely&#xD;&#xA;&gt; submerged in honey (a common preservative for transporting cadavers&#xD;&#xA;&gt; long distances)...&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Nearly a century later, through the reign of nine emperors after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Claudius, the embalmed Centaur of Saune could still be viewed, by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; special appointment, in the emperor Hadrian's imperial storehouse.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Phlegon... who served on Hadrian's staff (A.D. 117-138), examined the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; marvel himself. The Centaur was a bit smaller than what one might&#xD;&#xA;&gt; expect from classical Greek art, he observed, but it had a fierce face&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and hairy arms and fingers. The human rib cage merged naturally with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; equine body and limbs, and its hooves were quite firm.&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mayor herself is convinced that all these preserved remains were artistically contrived hoaxes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;SATYRS &amp; AIGIPANĒS&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Fauns are from Roman mythology. Since ancient times they have often been confused with Satyrs, who did *not* have goats' heads or legs, and were more humanoid (and barely had horns). The Roman fauns were more akin in appearance to the goat-headed, goat-legged gods Pan and Aigipan [Aegipan] (the latter of whom might merely be a form of the former) and the woodland sprites called Panēs [Pans], after the great Pan, and Aigipanēs [Aegipans], similarly after the great Aigipan. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Satyr Appliqué][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As in the preceding section, Mayor's book relates the issue quite well (pp. 236-237):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Pausanias remarked that a live wild Satyr from Libya was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; exhibited in Rome, and Plutarch described the capture of a Satyr in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; what is now Albania. In 83 B.C., the Roman commander Sulla was about&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to sail from Dyrrhacium to Italy when his soldiers surprised a Satyr&#xD;&#xA;&gt; asleep in a sacred meadow, a place where fire flowed from the ground.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The creature looked just like Satyrs in art and drama, and, when&#xD;&#xA;&gt; captured and presented to the Roman commander, he uttered a harsh&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whinnying bleat.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Satyr sightings lasted into the early Christian era. Saint&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jerome, a contemporary of Saint Augustine, stated that the emperor&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Constantine (d. A.D. 337) traveled to Antioch to view the remains of a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Satyr that had been preserved in salt.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the end of Endnote 8 to this chapter of the book (on p. 326), Mayor says that &quot;Saint Augustine thought he saw a Satyr, according to Cuvier. Rudwick 1997, 233.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meanwhile Pliny's [*Natural History*](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0137:book=5:chapter=1) has this to say about Mt Atlas in Morocco:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At night, they say, it gleams with fires innumerable&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lighted up; it is then the scene of the gambols of the Aegipans and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Satyr crew, while it re-echoes with the notes of the flute and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; pipe, and the clash of drums and cymbals. All this is what authors of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; high character have stated, in addition to the labours which Hercules&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Herakles] and Perseus there experienced. The space which intervenes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; before you arrive at this mountain is immense, and the country quite&#xD;&#xA;&gt; unknown.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is nonetheless an encounter with something which is described as *both* a Satyr and a *faun* by none other than Jerome, who says that the famous Egyptian hermit St Antony the Great was given roadside directions to an older monk named Paul of Thebes, first by a Centaur and then by a goatish humanoid. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second creature speaks to Antony and even acknowledges Christ as Lord, all while alluding to the Book of Psalms and the Epistle to the Romans! (*And* this goat-like beast-man can *fly?*) As it happens, Antony's response thereto provides what we could call a fourth explanation of the matter in question, or even a blend of all of the current 3.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Antony was amazed, and, thinking over what he had seen [the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Centaur], went on his way. Before long in a small rocky valley shut in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on all sides he saw a little man with a hooked snout, a horned&#xD;&#xA;&gt; forehead, and extremities like the feet of a goat. When he saw this,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Antony, like a good soldier, seized the shield of faith and the helmet&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of hope: the creature nonetheless began to offer to him the fruit of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the palm-trees to support him on his journey and, as it were, pledges of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; peace. Antony, perceiving this, stopped and asked who he was. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; answer he received from him was this:&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; &lt;sup&gt;I am a mortal being and one of those inhabitants of the desert&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; whom the Gentiles, deluded by various forms of error, worship under the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; names of Fauns, Satyrs, and Incubi. I am sent to represent my tribe.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; We ask you on our behalf to entreat the favour of your Lord and ours,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; who, we have learned, came once to save the world, and &quot;whose sound&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; has gone forth into all the earth.&quot;&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;As he uttered such words as these, the aged traveller's cheeks&#xD;&#xA;&gt; streamed with tears, the marks of his deep feeling, which he shed in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the fullness of his joy. He rejoiced over the Glory of Christ and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; destruction of Satan, and marvelling all the while that he could&#xD;&#xA;&gt; understand the Satyr's language, and striking the ground with his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; staff, he said:&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; &lt;sup&gt;Woe to you, Alexandria, who instead of God worships monsters!   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; Woe to you, harlot city, into which have flowed together the demons of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; the whole world!    &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; What will you say now? Beasts speak of Christ, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; you, instead of God, worship monsters!&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;He had not finished speaking when, as if on wings, the wild&#xD;&#xA;&gt; creature fled away. Let no one scruple to believe this incident; its&#xD;&#xA;&gt; truth is supported by what took place when Constantine was on the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; throne, a matter of which the whole world was witness.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; - [*The Life of Paul the Hermit* 8](http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3008.htm)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jerome goes on to describe the Satyr remains in Antioch, mentioned in the Mayor quote above, at the beginning of this section.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;OTHER CREATURES&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Encounters with mermen (who were called Tritons in Greek myth) and sea nymphs (typically Nereids, who were related to the Tritons via their common ancestor the sea-god Nereus) were as prevalent in Roman times as sightings of Centaurs and Satyrs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pliny says that a delegation from Olisipo (Lisbon) arrived in Rome to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; inform the emperor Tiberius that a Triton had been spotted in a cave&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by the sea. They also stated that a dying Nereid, covered with hair or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fine scales even on the parts that looked human, appeared on the same&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shore. The governor of Gaul reported to Emperor Augustus a mass&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stranding of Nereids on the Atlantic coast, and Pliny himself heard&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from reliable sources that a Triton was sinking ships at night in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gulf of Cadiz.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Triton remains were exhibited in Tanagra and Rome.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Mayor 2000: 231-232&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pliny says there was a breed of (really kool-sounding) horned, winged horses in Aethiopia which were called *Pegasi*. [Aaron Atsma](http://www.theoi.com/Thaumasios/PegasoiAithiopikoi.html) conjectures that these were descendants of Pegasus, the most famous winged horse of Greek myth, hence the name of the African variety of these animals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Horned Pegasus][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By the way, during Herodotus' time and long after, gods were still siring offspring upon mortal women. For much more on that, see my [MoreStories~inUniverse Answer](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/855/what-was-the-explanation-in-greek-mythology-for-the-absence-of-their-deities/3404#3404).     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notes&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Grant, R.M. 1952. *Miracle and Natural Law in Graeco-Roman and Early Christian Thought*. Wipf &amp; Stock, Eugene, OR.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. Mayor, A. 2000. *The First Fossil Hunters: Paleontology in Greek and Roman Times*. Princeton University Press, Princeton, NJ.&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/My81s.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/VcvsE.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/5e4zL.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/9OmkZ.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15183" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4575" RevisionGUID="58d17890-c9f3-4f7a-8569-0b86358f07b6" CreationDate="2018-03-20T08:29:08.310" UserId="4525" Text="Lots of cultures have some sort of shapeshifting monster or a magician that can transform into animals.&#xA;&#xA;Do mongols have something like this too?&#xA;&#xA; Is it a feral monster or is it more intelligent? &#xA;&#xA;Is the transformation voluntary? &#xA;&#xA;Is it a curse or a blessing or a spell or punishment or demonic possession?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15184" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4575" RevisionGUID="58d17890-c9f3-4f7a-8569-0b86358f07b6" CreationDate="2018-03-20T08:29:08.310" UserId="4525" Text="Do mongols have something like a werewolf?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15185" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4575" RevisionGUID="58d17890-c9f3-4f7a-8569-0b86358f07b6" CreationDate="2018-03-20T08:29:08.310" UserId="4525" Text="|monsters|werewolves|mongolian-shamanism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15186" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4576" RevisionGUID="d0fa481a-8cca-4416-ba16-8aee28d72cc6" CreationDate="2018-03-20T09:02:39.483" UserId="2682" Text="**Which Languages?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is good reason to think that, as far as the myths are concerned, the Trojans probably did speak the same language as the Achaeans. At the foundation of Carthage its primary language would have been Phoenician. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a lot of traffic described between Greece and Troy going as far back as the time of the Flood, since the founders of Troy are supposed to have been descendants of Dardanus, a son of Zeus who survived the Flood and migrated from Greece to Asia Minor, where Troy was built by his great-grandson Ilus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Troy does have an African connection: two of Aeneas' relatives, the brothers Emathion and Memnon (nephews of Priam, and third cousins of Aeneas), are both said to have been kings of Ethiopia. Emathion dies a generation before the Trojan War, slain by Hercules/Herakles, while Memnon brings his army, augmented by forces from Persia, to support his uncle Priam against the Greeks. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;No other member of the family seems to be as directly connected to Africa as that, however, and the ancient Ethiopia spoken of by the Greeks (= modern East African Sudan) is quite some distance to the southeast of Carthage. It also doesn't mean that Aeneas himself automatically spoke the language of the Ethiopians, not that this should help at all in communicating with a Phoenician.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Very Seldom Are Language Differences a Main Focus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Homer's *Iliad*, which you reference in your Question regarding Greek vs. Roman names at Troy, no communication difficulty is indicated as existing between the Greeks and the Trojans, and, as noted in my [Answer to that Question](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/4566/2682), the implication even seems to be that the Trojans are ethnically Greek, speak the Greek language and worship the same Greek deities as their opponents from across the Aegean Sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meanwhile IRL, &quot;in real life,&quot; whoever it is that inhabited the site mythically called Troy probably did have their own language, perhaps related to or the same as Phrygian or Hittite, as well as their own religion, which may or may not have had closer parallels with Greek and/or with Asian veneration of deities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In similarity to the *Iliad*, Virgil's *Aeneid* does not indicate any lingual communication difficulty between the Trojans and the Carthaginians. But this is a typical writing convention particularly in ancient forms of literature, which feature characters from various parts of the world interacting with each other often without the question of language ever being brought up. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If it ever does come up then it is almost always because it directly affects the plot of the story rather than it being merely descriptive detail filler. The author assumes that the reader understands that different peoples, tribes and nations speak different languages and that therefore they must either be multilingual (or have to learn fairly quickly), or have translators handy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Greco-Roman mythology is chock-full of such examples of international and inter-tribal communications in which it is never explained which language anyone is speaking nor is it mentioned that there are any language barriers. Stories which include such events are quite the special case. Instead we typically have stuff like the great hero Hercules/Herakles travelling to every country in the world, as far as the Romans and Greeks were aware at the time, but no one says that he necessarily spoke more than one language or needed special help communicating, say, with the kings of Egypt, Ethiopia and Troy, or with the queen of the Amazons, or the Libyan giant Antaeus, or with Hades' herdsman Menoetes, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Many Other Languages Implied in Dido's Story**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are also several international meetups in the story of Dido. In her time, since she is supposed to have built Carthage, the city's language would simply have been her native Phoenician. But she does encounter the locals, who are not Phoenician, when she first arrives in Africa, these including the Numidians and Gaetulians, as well as people from the Greek colony of Barca in Libya, which is about a day's walk from Cyrene, another Greek colony in the same country. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Quite an influential character in the *Aeneid* is the Numidian king Iarbas, who is also described as Gaetulian and whom Virgil tells us is the son of Hammon, the Libyan Jupiter, by a Garamantian nymph. The Garamantes were Berbers like the Numidians and the Gaetulians. Iarbas proposes marriage to Dido but is rejected, and his prayer to Hammon causes the god to send Aeneas back out of Africa. So here we already have an African character from several different backgrounds, and we can only assume which ancient Berber language he spoke and whether he conversed with Dido in his own tongue or in Phoenician.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most Greek and Roman mythographers say that Troy, like Barca and Cyrene, was a Greek colony. Some Roman writers say that it was an Etruscan colony. These writers probably imagined that the Trojans spoke Greek or some Italian language, although after generations in Asia, it certainly wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that they either formed their own dialect or were assimilated into the local cultures and spoke an Asian language.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since Carthage was still under construction when Aeneas met Dido, there wouldn't have been any major trading deals going on between this city and Troy. For the purposes of the question, the trade would have needed to be between Troy and Phoenicia, the latter of which Dido came from. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Phoenician Trade Routes Map][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;Going by this Wikipedia map indicating Phoenician trade routes, Troy does not come anywhere near being a participant. It would be located on the northeastern shore of the Aegean, quite some distance north of Crete Island, Crete being the easterly end of the route.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what language Aeneas spoke (whether Greek, Trojan, Phrygian, Hittite or something else, assuming that Troy even existed in any form close to its mythical description) and whether he conversed with Dido and the Carthaginians in their native Phoenician, or if Dido knew Aeneas' language, or whether they employed the use of translators, is purely a matter of speculation with which the storytellers do not engage us. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The question of trading partners may the one easiest to eliminate as an option, although that would not have been the only way for a Phoenician to learn &quot;Trojan&quot; or vice versa. It is also not impossible that Troy might have had its own trading enterprises which reached up to Phoenicia, which after all is closer to Troy than Carthage is.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/7rdA0.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15187" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3345" RevisionGUID="a9d22819-5d33-4a54-aa19-c916d746b749" CreationDate="2018-03-20T09:03:57.860" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected spelling" Text="If the Trojans had a different language than the Achaeans, does this mean they spoke the same as Queen Dido?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15188" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4577" RevisionGUID="02a67e1a-bb32-4b93-8626-6ee042c67c71" CreationDate="2018-03-20T10:26:23.637" UserId="4886" Text="I think the most obvious connection between the 3 witches and prior mythologies is the witchcraft goddess Hecate, particularly since she's mentioned explicitly in Macbeth, Act 3, Scene 5. Originally Hecate was considered a beneficent figure and among others had a large cult centre in Byzantium (modern day Istanbul Turkey). She was described as a titan featured in Hesiod's Theogony, but unlike other titans, she sided with the Gods and was therefore subsequently allowed to retain all her former power and providence. Her representations are many and varied, including association with Zoroastrianism via the Chaldean Oracles, with the Orphic mystery cult, and subsequently with Neoplatonism was featured as the World-Soul. A sculpture of the triple goddess Hecate Chiaramonti is still on display in the Vatican Museum. During the Roman period she became increasingly associated with death and evil doing in spite of the fact that she was originally credited with averting evil. Her character and attributes were syncretized many times through history as different cultures came in contact, so it's likely that there is also relation with the Nornir from Anglo-Saxon myths who are quite comparable to the Moirai and Eileithyia with whom Hecate is also often associated. Depending on how far back you want to go, she can also be considered descendent from the cult of the Matrons, who are most commonly depicted as triple Goddesses, and which has precedents going back close to 30 thousand years according to evidence in the archaeological record. The Matrons cult was widespread and according to scholar Maria Kvilhaug, still persists in nearly identical form in some remote parts of Siberia. Venerable Bede specifically mentions Mōdraniht as a winter solstice festival in Britain honouring the Matres and Matronae." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15189" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4577" RevisionGUID="fa3586d3-ff94-4f15-b202-96f26458d032" CreationDate="2018-03-20T11:06:33.907" UserId="57" Comment="paragraphs" Text="I think the most obvious connection between the 3 witches and prior mythologies is the witchcraft goddess Hecate, particularly since she's mentioned explicitly in Macbeth, Act 3, Scene 5. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Originally Hecate was considered a beneficent figure and among others had a large cult centre in Byzantium (modern-day Istanbul, Turkey). She was described as a titan in Hesiod's Theogony, but unlike other titans, she sided with the gods and was therefore subsequently allowed to retain all her former power and providence. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Her representations are many and varied, including association with Zoroastrianism via the Chaldean Oracles, with the Orphic mystery cult, and subsequently with Neoplatonism was featured as the World-Soul. A sculpture of the triple goddess Hecate Chiaramonti is still on display in the Vatican Museum. During the Roman period, she became increasingly associated with death and evil doing in spite of the fact that she was originally credited with averting evil. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Her character and attributes were syncretized many times through history as different cultures came in contact, so it's likely that there is also relation with the Nornir from Anglo-Saxon myths who are quite comparable to the Moirai and Eileithyia with whom Hecate is also often associated. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Depending on how far back you want to go, she can also be considered descendent from the cult of the Matrons, who are most commonly depicted as triple Goddesses, and which has precedents going back close to 30 thousand years according to evidence in the archaeological record. The Matrons cult was widespread and according to scholar Maria Kvilhaug, still persists in a nearly identical form in some remote parts of Siberia. Venerable Bede specifically mentions Mōdraniht as a winter solstice festival in Britain honouring the Matres and Matronae." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15190" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4578" RevisionGUID="b9a3d3ad-240a-4da3-8754-10e2e38bc3d1" CreationDate="2018-03-20T13:21:38.827" UserId="1241" Text="I can remember several years ago, a friend of mine got pinched on [St. Patrick's Day][1] in Wagner, Oklahoma of all places.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So why do we wear green on St. Patrick's Day and get pinched if we do not?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To be honest the answer has to do several items: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - St. Patrick&#xD;&#xA;- The Color Green&#xD;&#xA;- The Irish Potato Famine&#xD;&#xA;- Leprechauns &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why do people wear green on St. Patrick's Day? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As to how that became the day we love/fear, March 17 is the day on which St. Patrick is thought to have died, and a Feast Day was instituted to commemorate his life and accomplishments. As Irish immigrants celebrated it across the pond in America in the early 18th Century, the feast became a bigger and bigger deal to the Irish community. This led to the first-ever St. Patrick's Day parade in Boston in 1737, and by 1903 the Feast Day was  a National Holiday back in Ireland.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The link between green and Irish pride originated in the Irish Rebellion of 1798. As the Irish rebelled against the British soldiers, who wore red, they wore green uniforms. There's a famous ballad about this called &quot;The Wearing of the Green,&quot; which is guaranteed to make you feel somber and proud even though you have no connection to those events. As a sign of solidarity with the rebellion, people began wearing green as an expression of Irish pride. Since St. Patrick's Day was the official day to express that pride, the two became linked. - [The Questions You're Too Afraid to Ask About St. Patrick's Day Answered][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How does the Irish Potato Famine fit in to this in America?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Irish Famine caused the first mass migration of Irish people to the United States. The effects of the Irish Potato Famine continued to spur on Irish immigration well into the 20th century after the devastating fungus that destroyed Ireland's prized potato crops died out in 1850. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Starvation and diseased claimed around a million lives during 1845-1850, which lead to almost twice that number to emigrate to other countries, including a majority into the United States. The lack of industry and overall poverty that remained constant in the region brought many impoverished Catholic farmers and laborers into the U.S. - [Irish Immigrants to the United States][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So we can see that the Irish during the 1800s came to the United States in large numbers and brought their Irish heritage with them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now for the color green. There are several points to be made here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Green is a liturgical color to Irish Catholics that symbolizes [hope][4]. Hope in a new country and a new way of life in the US.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Green, not purple was the [original Episcopal color][5] and St. Patrick was a Catholic Bishop.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And again there is *The Wearing of the Green*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;The Wearing of the Green&quot; is an Irish street ballad lamenting the repression of supporters of the Irish Rebellion of 1798. It is to an old Irish air, and many versions of the lyric exist, the best-known being by Dion Boucicault.[1] The song proclaims that &quot;they are hanging men and women for the wearing of the green&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The revolutionary Society of United Irishmen adopted green as its colour, and supporters wore green-coloured garments, ribbons, or cockades. In some versions, the &quot;green&quot; being worn is shamrock rather than fabric. - [The Wearing of the Green][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Let us not forget the legend of St. Patrick and the [shamrock][7]. The shamrock is green too.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Traditionally, shamrock is said to have been used by Saint Patrick to illustrate the Christian doctrine of the Holy Trinity when Christianizing Ireland in the 5th century. The first evidence of a link between St Patrick and the shamrock appears in 1675 on the St Patrick's Coppers or Halpennies. These appear to show a figure of St Patrick preaching to a crowd while holding a shamrock, presumably to explain the doctrine of the Holy Trinity. In pagan Ireland, three was a significant number and the Irish had many triple deities, which could have aided St Patrick in his evangelization efforts. Patricia Monaghan states that &quot;There is no evidence that the clover or wood sorrel (both of which are called shamrocks) were sacred to the Celts&quot;. However, Jack Santino speculates that &quot;The shamrock was probably associated with the earth and assumed by the druids to be symbolic of the regenerative powers of nature ... Nevertheless, the shamrock, whatever its history as a folk symbol, today has its meaning in a Christian context. Pictures of Saint Patrick depict him driving the snakes out of Ireland with a cross in one hand and a sprig of shamrocks in the other.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And finally the Leprechauns:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **And this is why the pinching on St. Patrick's Day happens.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The pinching on St. Patrick's Day is connected to another of the holiday’s staples: the leprechaun. Superstitions claimed that wearing the color green made you “invisible” to these magical creatures, who went around violating people’s personal space and pinching everyone they could see. The reason behind this inconsiderate behavior? They’re just mischievous.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; But this quickly devolved into people taking matters into their own hands, quite literally, and pinching those around them on St. Patrick’s Day who weren’t wearing green — as a reminder that leprechauns might pinch them. So there’s really no escaping the pinch. - [Here's the real deal with the pinching on St. Patrick's Day][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Patrick%27s_Day&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.thrillist.com/news/nation/st-patricks-day-traditions-explained&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.findmypast.com/articles/world-records/full-list-of-united-states-records/immigration-and-travel/irish-famine-immigrants-1846-1851&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.wou.edu/wp/exhibits/files/2015/07/christianity.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/61302/why-are-a-catholic-bishops-coat-of-arms-green-and-not-purple&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wearing_of_the_Green&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamrock&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.metro.us/lifestyle/pinching-on-st-patricks-day" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15191" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4579" RevisionGUID="ff8614c9-360d-46eb-a34f-84a8db51392b" CreationDate="2018-03-20T13:44:32.953" UserId="4271" Text="I know of the Necklace of Harmonica. The necklace was made by Hephaestus, given to the goddess Harmonia as a wedding *gift*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Harmonia and her husband were eventually turned into serpents, and the necklace was inherited by their daughter, Semele. It also brought her demise, as the day she wore it, she was visited by a disguised Hera and was tricked into asking her lover, who was Zeus in disguise, to reveal himself; Zeus was forced to comply causing her instant death. The necklace later fell into the hands of Queen Jocasta, who remained young and beautiful thanks to it. She unknowingly married her son Oedipus, and when the truth was revealed, she killed herself, while Oedipus tore his eyes out. Polynices inherited the necklace and gifted it to Eriphyle, eventually leading to her demise as well. It then went into Arsinoe's hands, before finally reaching the hands of Amphoterus and Acarnan. They both decided to offer the necklace to the Temple of Athena in Delphi, in order to stop any further misfortunes. The necklace was stolen, however, by the tyrant Phayllus, who offered it to his lover; however, her son fell into madness, set fire to the house, killing everyone in there.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any other cursed items in Greek Mythology? What are they and their history?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.greekmythology.com/Myths/Elements/Necklace_of_Harmonia/necklace_of_harmonia.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15192" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4579" RevisionGUID="ff8614c9-360d-46eb-a34f-84a8db51392b" CreationDate="2018-03-20T13:44:32.953" UserId="4271" Text="Cursed items in Mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15193" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4579" RevisionGUID="ff8614c9-360d-46eb-a34f-84a8db51392b" CreationDate="2018-03-20T13:44:32.953" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|myth-identification|god-items|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15194" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4579" RevisionGUID="148e6e2e-f298-424f-b0b8-45eec3cb06e7" CreationDate="2018-03-20T14:05:09.557" UserId="57" Comment="Please use blockquotes for quotes (see https://mythology.stackexchange.com/editing-help). Also, please consider putting a little bit more effort in your titles. Having to fix them all the time is getting a bit tiring. " Text="I know of the Necklace of Harmonica. The necklace was made by Hephaestus, given to the goddess Harmonia as a wedding *gift*: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Harmonia and her husband were eventually turned into serpents, and the necklace was inherited by their daughter, Semele. It also brought her demise, as the day she wore it, she was visited by a disguised Hera and was tricked into asking her lover, who was Zeus in disguise, to reveal himself; Zeus was forced to comply causing her instant death. The necklace later fell into the hands of Queen Jocasta, who remained young and beautiful thanks to it. She unknowingly married her son Oedipus, and when the truth was revealed, she killed herself, while Oedipus tore his eyes out. Polynices inherited the necklace and gifted it to Eriphyle, eventually leading to her demise as well. It then went into Arsinoe's hands, before finally reaching the hands of Amphoterus and Acarnan. They both decided to offer the necklace to the Temple of Athena in Delphi, in order to stop any further misfortunes. The necklace was stolen, however, by the tyrant Phayllus, who offered it to his lover; however, her son fell into madness, set fire to the house, killing everyone in there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Source: greekmythology.com][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any other cursed items in Greek mythology? What is their history?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.greekmythology.com/Myths/Elements/Necklace_of_Harmonia/necklace_of_harmonia.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15195" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4579" RevisionGUID="148e6e2e-f298-424f-b0b8-45eec3cb06e7" CreationDate="2018-03-20T14:05:09.557" UserId="57" Comment="Please use blockquotes for quotes (see https://mythology.stackexchange.com/editing-help). Also, please consider putting a little bit more effort in your titles. Having to fix them all the time is getting a bit tiring. " Text="What cursed items are there in Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15196" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="4579" RevisionGUID="148e6e2e-f298-424f-b0b8-45eec3cb06e7" CreationDate="2018-03-20T14:05:09.557" UserId="57" Comment="Please use blockquotes for quotes (see https://mythology.stackexchange.com/editing-help). Also, please consider putting a little bit more effort in your titles. Having to fix them all the time is getting a bit tiring. " Text="|greek|god-items|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15197" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4580" RevisionGUID="a9df9612-d18d-4cbd-a5ba-c7a04bd0c8e1" CreationDate="2018-03-20T14:24:45.813" UserId="4271" Text="In Shintoism, their is a legend that says two gods (Izanagi and Izanami) walked around a pillar. The goddess spoke to the god, then the god spoke to the goddess. They had a few kids, but were unsatisfied with them. They consulted another about their problem. It told them that the god should have spoken first and to redo going around the pillar. They did so and had better luck with their offspring.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why would the goddess speaking first cause bad luck with procreation?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15198" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4580" RevisionGUID="a9df9612-d18d-4cbd-a5ba-c7a04bd0c8e1" CreationDate="2018-03-20T14:24:45.813" UserId="4271" Text="Why did the two gods have bad luck with kids?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15199" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4580" RevisionGUID="a9df9612-d18d-4cbd-a5ba-c7a04bd0c8e1" CreationDate="2018-03-20T14:24:45.813" UserId="4271" Text="|japanese|shinto|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15200" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4581" RevisionGUID="0777ef8f-cf58-4b39-876f-fa90f10fe3e4" CreationDate="2018-03-20T15:06:38.747" UserId="4271" Text="I asked a previous question with Abraxas [here][1]. It briefly talks about what he is and asks how the number 365 relates to him in so many ways.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A few days after that time, I was talking to this random person who happened to look at my computer as I was researching. We had a conversation on what I found out about him (her, by some sources). After I said my piece, she said that Abraxas was also a prince of hell. I've been trying to connect him since, but haven't found anything related or worth mentioning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where can I find information about Abraxas being a prince of hell?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/3352/what-are-the-365-virtues" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15201" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4581" RevisionGUID="0777ef8f-cf58-4b39-876f-fa90f10fe3e4" CreationDate="2018-03-20T15:06:38.747" UserId="4271" Text="Who says Abraxas is a prince of hell?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15202" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4581" RevisionGUID="0777ef8f-cf58-4b39-876f-fa90f10fe3e4" CreationDate="2018-03-20T15:06:38.747" UserId="4271" Text="|myth-identification|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15203" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4582" RevisionGUID="f7c8f0cc-9926-462f-8952-e87b23ab349a" CreationDate="2018-03-20T15:32:54.557" UserId="57" Text="It was not uncommon for the Catholic Church to brand pagan deities as demons. To that effect, Abraxas is listed with several other pagan deities in [J. Collin de Plancy's][1] [*Dictionnaire Infernal*][2] (Infernal Dictionary). Here's an illustration from the 6th edition:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Abraxas from Infernal Dictionary, 6th Edition, 1863][3]][4] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have not found a source calling Abraxas a *prince of Hell*, specifically. If you allow a guess, I'll say that the characterization may at least partly derive from Abraxas's regal appearance in the above illustration (notice the crown?). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Collin_de_Plancy&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictionnaire_Infernal&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/vVigM.png&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Abraxas_Infernal_Dictionary.png&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classification_of_demons" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15204" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4581" RevisionGUID="f41d22d4-3130-4273-8f78-93bbbff7f2da" CreationDate="2018-03-20T15:39:38.353" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 1 character in body; edited tags" Text="I asked a previous question about Abraxas [here][1]. It briefly talks about what he is and asks how the number 365 relates to him in so many ways.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A few days after that time, I was talking to this random person who happened to look at my computer as I was researching. We had a conversation on what I found out about him (her, by some sources). After I said my piece, she said that Abraxas was also a prince of Hell. I've been trying to connect him since, but haven't found anything related or worth mentioning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where can I find information about Abraxas being a prince of Hell?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/3352/what-are-the-365-virtues" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15205" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="4581" RevisionGUID="f41d22d4-3130-4273-8f78-93bbbff7f2da" CreationDate="2018-03-20T15:39:38.353" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 1 character in body; edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|comparative|christianity|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15206" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4580" RevisionGUID="3333748d-e391-4229-993b-4a614b3d9aad" CreationDate="2018-03-20T15:43:03.457" UserId="57" Comment="added 4 characters in body; edited title" Text="In Shintoism, there is a legend that says two gods, Izanagi and Izanami, walked around a pillar. The goddess spoke to the god, then the god spoke to the goddess. They had a few kids but were unsatisfied with them. They consulted other gods about their problem. They told them that the god should have spoken first and to redo going around the pillar. They did so and had better luck with their offspring.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why would the goddess speaking first cause bad luck with procreation?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15207" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4580" RevisionGUID="3333748d-e391-4229-993b-4a614b3d9aad" CreationDate="2018-03-20T15:43:03.457" UserId="57" Comment="added 4 characters in body; edited title" Text="Why did Izanami speaking first caused her and Izanagi bad luck with procreation?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15208" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4583" RevisionGUID="8fa4e086-db9b-4294-a6af-519878073187" CreationDate="2018-03-20T15:47:31.030" UserId="4271" Text="Their are four Myths that I know of where someone murders another and does something about it to be relived of it. The first, most famous and only myth saying what is done, is Heracles. He murdered his family under the influence of Hera's madness. His punishment, the 10 trails, only later to be twelve because two were viewed as incomplete.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second is [Copreus][1]. He killed a man named Iphitus. He became a fugitive from Elis and came to Eurystheus. He purified him of the murder and Copreus became his herald.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The third is of Medea, who killed are separated he brother. She then spread his pieces to halt her father's chase. She directed Jason to her aunt, Circe, to relieve her of the murder.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The last is Bellerophon, who killed his brother or an enemy. Proetus, king of Tiryns, cleansed Bellerophon of his crime.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How is one cleansed of their crime of murder? Did Heracles only have to be cleansed by doing the labors because Hera hated him? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copreus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15209" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4583" RevisionGUID="8fa4e086-db9b-4294-a6af-519878073187" CreationDate="2018-03-20T15:47:31.030" UserId="4271" Text="How does one get purified of murder in Greek Mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15210" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4583" RevisionGUID="8fa4e086-db9b-4294-a6af-519878073187" CreationDate="2018-03-20T15:47:31.030" UserId="4271" Text="|hercules|argonauts|medea|bellerophon|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15211" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4583" RevisionGUID="10c77753-eaee-4345-b246-b596c9bb5b5d" CreationDate="2018-03-20T15:53:42.813" UserId="57" Comment="added 1 character in body; edited title" Text="There are four myths that I know of where someone murders another and does something about it to be relieved of it. The first, most famous and only myth saying what is done, is Heracles. He murdered his family under the influence of Hera's madness. His punishment, the 10 trials, only later to be twelve because two were viewed as incomplete.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second is [Copreus][1]. He killed a man named Iphitus. He became a fugitive from Elis and came to Eurystheus. He purified him of the murder and Copreus became his herald.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The third is of Medea, who killed are separated he brother. She then spread his pieces to halt her father's chase. She directed Jason to her aunt, Circe, to relieve her of the murder.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The last is Bellerophon, who killed his brother or an enemy. Proetus, king of Tiryns, cleansed Bellerophon of his crime.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How is one cleansed of their crime of murder? Did Heracles only have to be cleansed by doing the labors because Hera hated him? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copreus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15212" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4583" RevisionGUID="10c77753-eaee-4345-b246-b596c9bb5b5d" CreationDate="2018-03-20T15:53:42.813" UserId="57" Comment="added 1 character in body; edited title" Text="How does one get purified of murder in Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15213" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4584" RevisionGUID="a33cc34a-0a59-4be8-890a-bbff29a5a442" CreationDate="2018-03-20T16:28:25.200" UserId="4108" Text="I'm writing a research paper on Hades, king of the underworld, and I really wanted to know if Hades was really a bad guy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have many pages of evidence saying that he isn't. But I would like to know your guys' opinion." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15214" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4584" RevisionGUID="a33cc34a-0a59-4be8-890a-bbff29a5a442" CreationDate="2018-03-20T16:28:25.200" UserId="4108" Text="Hades, in Greek Mythology, was he really a bad guy, or just a hard to understand God?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15215" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4584" RevisionGUID="a33cc34a-0a59-4be8-890a-bbff29a5a442" CreationDate="2018-03-20T16:28:25.200" UserId="4108" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15216" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="4584" RevisionGUID="b6729596-eb3c-4f94-a2a8-09574292ff71" CreationDate="2018-03-20T17:27:02.790" UserId="4271" Comment="added tags" Text="|greek|underworld|hades|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15218" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4576" RevisionGUID="5c5ec495-35f0-4062-91a7-746a7139a3c1" CreationDate="2018-03-21T13:06:45.957" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="**Which Languages?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is good reason to think that, as far as the myths are concerned, the Trojans probably did speak the same language as the Achaeans. At the foundation of Carthage its primary language would have been Phoenician. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a lot of traffic described between Greece and Troy going as far back as the time of the Flood, since the founders of Troy are supposed to have been descendants of Dardanus, a son of Zeus who survived the Flood and migrated from Greece to Asia Minor, where Troy was built by his great-grandson Ilus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Troy does have an African connection: two of Aeneas' relatives, the brothers Emathion and Memnon (nephews of Priam, and third cousins of Aeneas), are both said to have been kings of Ethiopia. Emathion dies a generation before the Trojan War, slain by Hercules/Herakles, while Memnon brings his army, augmented by forces from Persia, to support his uncle Priam against the Greeks. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;No other member of the family seems to be as directly connected to Africa as that, however, and the ancient Ethiopia spoken of by the Greeks (= modern East African Sudan) is quite some distance to the southeast of Carthage. It also doesn't mean that Aeneas himself automatically spoke the language of the Ethiopians, not that this should help at all in communicating with a Phoenician.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Very Seldom Are Language Differences a Main Focus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Homer's *Iliad*, which you reference in your Question regarding Greek vs. Roman names at Troy, no communication difficulty is indicated as existing between the Greeks and the Trojans, and, as noted in my [Answer to that Question](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/4566/2682), the implication even seems to be that the Trojans are ethnically Greek, speak the Greek language and worship the same Greek deities as their opponents from across the Aegean Sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meanwhile IRL, &quot;in real life,&quot; whoever it is that inhabited the site mythically called Troy probably did have their own language, perhaps related to or the same as Phrygian or Hittite, as well as their own religion, which may or may not have had closer parallels with Greek and/or with Asian veneration of deities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In similarity to the *Iliad*, Virgil's *Aeneid* does not indicate any lingual communication difficulty between the Trojans and the Carthaginians. But this is a typical writing convention particularly in ancient forms of literature, which feature characters from various parts of the world interacting with each other often without the question of language ever being brought up. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If it ever does come up then it is almost always because it directly affects the plot of the story rather than it being merely descriptive detail filler. The author assumes that the reader understands that different peoples, tribes and nations speak different languages and that therefore they must either be multilingual (or have to learn fairly quickly), or have translators handy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Greco-Roman mythology is chock-full of such examples of international and inter-tribal communications in which it is never explained which language anyone is speaking nor is it mentioned that there are any language barriers. Stories which include such events are quite the special case. Instead we typically have stuff like the great hero Hercules/Herakles travelling to every country in the world, as far as the Romans and Greeks were aware at the time, but no one says that he necessarily spoke more than one language or needed special help communicating, say, with the kings of Egypt, Ethiopia and Troy, or with the queen of the Amazons, or the Libyan giant Antaeus, or with Hades' herdsman Menoetes, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Many Other Languages Implied in Dido's Story**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are also several international meetups in the story of Dido. In her time, since she is supposed to have built Carthage, the city's language would simply have been her native Phoenician. But she does encounter the locals, who are not Phoenician, when she first arrives in Africa, these including the Numidians and Gaetulians, as well as people from the Greek colony of Barca in Libya, which is about a day's walk from Cyrene, another Greek colony in the same country. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Quite an influential character in the *Aeneid* is the Numidian king Iarbas, who is also described as Gaetulian and whom Virgil tells us is the son of Hammon, the Libyan Jupiter, by a Garamantian nymph. The Garamantes were Berbers like the Numidians and the Gaetulians. Iarbas proposes marriage to Dido but is rejected, and his prayer to Hammon causes the god to send Aeneas back out of Africa. So here we already have an African character from a considerable number of different backgrounds, and we can only assume which ancient Berber language he spoke and whether he conversed with Dido in his own tongue or in Phoenician.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most Greek and Roman mythographers say that Troy, like Barca and Cyrene, was a Greek colony. Some Roman writers say that it was an Etruscan colony. These writers probably imagined that the Trojans spoke Greek or some Italian language, although after generations in Asia, it certainly wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that they either formed their own dialect or were assimilated into the local cultures and spoke an Asian language.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since Carthage was still under construction when Aeneas met Dido, there wouldn't have been any major trade deals going on between this city and Troy. For the purposes of the question, the commerce would have needed to be between Troy and Phoenicia, the latter of which Dido came from. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Phoenician Trade Routes Map][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;Going by this Wikipedia map indicating Phoenician trade routes, Troy does not come anywhere near being a participant. It would be located on the northeastern shore of the Aegean, quite some distance north of Crete Island, Crete being the easterly end of the route.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what language Aeneas spoke (whether Greek, Trojan, Phrygian, Hittite or something else, assuming that Troy even existed in any form close to its mythical description) and whether he conversed with Dido and the Carthaginians in their native Phoenician, or if Dido knew Aeneas' language, or whether they employed the use of translators, is purely a matter of speculation with which the storytellers do not engage us. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The question of trading partners may be the one easiest to eliminate as an option, although that would not have been the only way for a Phoenician to learn &quot;Trojan&quot; or vice versa. It is also not impossible that Troy might have had its own business enterprises which reached up to Phoenicia, which after all is closer to Troy than Carthage is.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/7rdA0.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15219" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4585" RevisionGUID="9db821fc-dbe7-4036-b194-3fe08cd1138f" CreationDate="2018-03-21T16:38:57.273" UserId="4271" Text="A majority of people will know of Atlantis. It is a Greek, fictional island, misregarded as oral history. Atlantis is mentioned in Plato's works Timaeus and Critias and is placed in the Atlantic Ocean.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then, I recently learned of Mu. Mu was thought to be located in the Atlantic Ocean. It was believed to belong to the Egyptians and Mesoamericans before Mu was lost.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I thought lost continents were only in Greek stories, but if you find it somewhere else, it will be in more.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which cultures/mythologies have a lost continent/advanced civilization story?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15220" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4585" RevisionGUID="9db821fc-dbe7-4036-b194-3fe08cd1138f" CreationDate="2018-03-21T16:38:57.273" UserId="4271" Text="How many lost continents are in Mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15221" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4585" RevisionGUID="9db821fc-dbe7-4036-b194-3fe08cd1138f" CreationDate="2018-03-21T16:38:57.273" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|comparative|egyptian|atlantis|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15222" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4586" RevisionGUID="d0864a04-979b-4c2a-81fd-cdbf3012eacb" CreationDate="2018-03-21T16:50:44.690" UserId="4271" Text="In Greek Mythology, their are a few special heroes (Diomedes being one) who, after Death claims them, have a shrine/temple build in their honor and for worship. Was the worship they received similar/same to that of a god, or completely different? In what ways?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15223" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4586" RevisionGUID="d0864a04-979b-4c2a-81fd-cdbf3012eacb" CreationDate="2018-03-21T16:50:44.690" UserId="4271" Text="What hero worship the same as god worship?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15224" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4586" RevisionGUID="d0864a04-979b-4c2a-81fd-cdbf3012eacb" CreationDate="2018-03-21T16:50:44.690" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|iliad|worship|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15225" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4586" RevisionGUID="bea657c0-39db-459c-a592-845f8326d264" CreationDate="2018-03-21T18:41:29.283" UserId="4271" Comment="fixed spelling" Text="Was hero worship the same as god worship?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15226" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4587" RevisionGUID="b7b8db29-b28a-4c90-9d82-7ccce053b35a" CreationDate="2018-03-21T22:59:05.427" UserId="3373" Text="In Proclusean hierarchy heroes were higher ranking than mortals, purified souls, daimons, lower than angels, archangels and Deities. They received worship and commemoration alike to the Gods. In fact they were - for example - Herculean mysteries and Herculean temples, stemming from the Eleusis rites (Heracles was a succesful initiate of these mystery schools). It is difficult to tell from a qualitative perspective what was the cognitive and spiritual way of expressing the worship, but I guess that in these days, when mixing and exchanging Deities was common, one might even have such instances when a hero received greater worship than a higher Deity in a different region. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15227" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4588" RevisionGUID="408c2c66-034f-4f2f-8bb2-d80a45cb8ed8" CreationDate="2018-03-21T23:02:53.567" UserId="3373" Text="In Graeco-Roman necromancy (Ogden, Daniel &quot;Graeco-Roman Necromancy&quot; - excellent resource), one could be cleansed of murder by appeasing the victim by making offerings or performing labours for the murderee. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15228" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4589" RevisionGUID="e0458e06-debc-47aa-84da-28eb16e2284f" CreationDate="2018-03-21T23:07:13.043" UserId="3373" Text="365 Genii of Earthly Spheres, the Greek calendar divided it so. Also Abraxas stood for the 7 Sphere Archons, or the Planetary Rulers that in some traditions were 'imprisoning' by misunderstanding, while in others they were shaping the human spirit/soul before it was released onto further voyage. Like in Mithraic mysteries, the soul entered from the stars Northwards, passing Saturn down to Earth, and the exit was Southwards - back to the Heavens, after passing through the gates of archons. My persona speculation is that Abraxas stood for the Seven Shining Ones, guardians of the body of Osiris (Sah, or Orion Constellation). Abraxas is related strictly to gnostic and Egypto-Hellenic magick. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15230" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4590" RevisionGUID="4edd0f64-eabe-4f20-b857-4872dbd20498" CreationDate="2018-03-22T10:31:30.223" UserId="4884" Text="Note that the Kalevala is not the original source for the Sampo (or anything else). In the early 1800s, the author of Kalevala, [Elias Lönnrot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elias_L%C3%B6nnrot), along with others travelled around Finland and Karelia writing down local folk lore. He then composed the Kalevala by putting various folk stories and songs together in a single more or less consistent epic. In the process he had to pick and choose which stories to use, which versions of each story to use (there often were many different songs about the same story), where to put them in a chronological order and how to tie them together in a single narrative (including adding his own material or modifying the existing songs).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You are correct that the description of the Sampo given in Kalevala is pretty clear. However, that's simply because that's how Lönnrot chose to represent it. Other stories have different and conflicting desriptions." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15231" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4590" RevisionGUID="43552f75-16c7-4c93-9ac4-cd26c53d3c3a" CreationDate="2018-03-22T11:22:34.367" UserId="4884" Comment="added 1874 characters in body" Text="Note that the Kalevala is not the original source for the Sampo (or anything else). In the early 1800s, the author of Kalevala, [Elias Lönnrot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elias_L%C3%B6nnrot), along with others travelled around Finland and Karelia writing down local folk lore. He then composed the Kalevala by putting various folk stories and songs together in a single more or less consistent epic. In the process he had to pick and choose which stories to use, which versions of each story to use (there often were many different songs about the same story), where to put them in a chronological order and how to tie them together in a single narrative (including adding his own material or modifying the existing songs).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You are correct that the description of the Sampo given in Kalevala is pretty clear. However, that's simply because that's how Lönnrot chose to represent it. Other stories have different and conflicting desriptions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, a common story about Sampo is the theft of Sampo. In the Kalevala version Väinämöinen, Ilmarinen and Lemminkäinen sail to the North to steal the Sampo. Louhi, the mistress of the North, pursues them. She turns herself into a giant eagle and grabs the Sampo back from the heroes, but Väinämöinen hits her claws with an oar. The Sampo falls into the sea and is broken. The pieces bring wealth to the lands they drift to.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The following short story collected in 1817 ([SKVR](https://skvr.fi) VII5 Metsäsuomalaiset 10) gives a different version:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Vanha Väjnämöjnen, ja nuori Jompajnen, lähättiin pohjan muaale Sammasta hakemaan. Sieltä suatiin Sammas kiin. Lähättiin merällä. Sano nuori Jompjnen vanha Väjnämöjsälla: alutto jo virsis. Viel on virsinen varrastajn kujn pohjolan muaan uunit kuumotta. Länsi pa Sammas pilvee. Löj nuori Jompajnen miekalla kax varvasta Sammalta pojki; yxi länsi meree, toinen suatiin muaale. Joka länsi meree siite tuli suolat meree. Joka suatiin muaale, siite tuli hejnet muaale. Kujn ojs useet suaanut, nin ojs vilja tullut ilman kylvämättä. Obs! pohjan maan portit näkö tuin uuuin kuumotta.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Old Väinämöinen, and young Jompainen, went to north-land to bring back Sampo. There was Sampo caught. Embarked to the sea. Said young Jompainen to old Väinämöinen: beging your song already. It is early for song when the ovens of north-land still feel warm. The sampo flew to the cloud. Young Jompainen stroke with a sword two toes off Sampo; one flew to the sea, other got the ground. What flew to the sea, it became the salt in the sea. What the ground got, it became the hay. If more was obtained, crops would have come without planting. [the last sentence I don't understand well enough to translate]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here the Sampo seems to be some kind of a bird. Perhaps the giant Eagle that Louhi turns herself into in other stories." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15232" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4590" RevisionGUID="1ddd489d-f946-43d8-a462-c2a9a07f979c" CreationDate="2018-03-22T12:56:18.267" UserId="4884" Comment="edited body" Text="Note that the Kalevala is not the original source for the Sampo (or anything else). In the early 1800s, the author of Kalevala, [Elias Lönnrot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elias_L%C3%B6nnrot), along with others travelled around Finland and Karelia writing down local folk lore. He then composed the Kalevala by putting various folk stories and songs together in a single more or less consistent epic. In the process he had to pick and choose which stories to use, which versions of each story to use (there often were many different songs about the same story), where to put them in a chronological order and how to tie them together in a single narrative (including adding his own material or modifying the existing songs).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You are correct that the description of the Sampo given in Kalevala is pretty clear. However, that's simply because that's how Lönnrot chose to represent it. Other stories have different and conflicting desriptions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, a common story about Sampo is the theft of Sampo. In the Kalevala version Väinämöinen, Ilmarinen and Lemminkäinen sail to the North to steal the Sampo. Louhi, the mistress of the North, pursues them. She turns herself into a giant eagle and grabs the Sampo back from the heroes, but Väinämöinen hits her claws with an oar. The Sampo falls into the sea and is broken. The pieces bring wealth to the lands they drift to.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The following short story collected in 1817 ([SKVR](https://skvr.fi) VII5 Metsäsuomalaiset 10) gives a different version:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Vanha Väjnämöjnen, ja nuori Jompajnen, lähättiin pohjan muaale Sammasta hakemaan. Sieltä suatiin Sammas kiin. Lähättiin merällä. Sano nuori Jompajnen vanha Väjnämöjsälla: alutto jo virsis. Viel on virsinen varrastajn kujn pohjolan muaan uunit kuumotta. Länsi pa Sammas pilvee. Löj nuori Jompajnen miekalla kax varvasta Sammalta pojki; yxi länsi meree, toinen suatiin muaale. Joka länsi meree siite tuli suolat meree. Joka suatiin muaale, siite tuli hejnet muaale. Kujn ojs useet suaanut, nin ojs vilja tullut ilman kylvämättä. Obs! pohjan maan portit näkö tuin uuuin kuumotta.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Old Väinämöinen, and young Jompainen, went to north-land to bring back Sampo. There was Sampo caught. Embarked to the sea. Said young Jompainen to old Väinämöinen: begin your song already. It is early for song when the ovens of north-land still feel warm. The sampo flew to the cloud. Young Jompainen stroke with a sword two toes off Sampo; one flew to the sea, other got the ground. What flew to the sea, it became the salt in the sea. What the ground got, it became the hay. If more was obtained, crops would have come without planting. [the last sentence I don't understand well enough to translate]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here the Sampo seems to be some kind of a bird. Perhaps the giant Eagle that Louhi turns herself into in other stories." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15233" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4591" RevisionGUID="f1e6b359-b171-4dbc-b150-7d795d17f464" CreationDate="2018-03-22T13:04:58.110" UserId="4271" Text="A Nekyia is a ritual to summon the dead. An example of this is Odysseus in the Odyssey. A Katabasis is a journey into the Underworld while still living. Heracles is one hero who did this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who was doing what in Greek Mythology and what was their reason for doing it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15234" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4591" RevisionGUID="f1e6b359-b171-4dbc-b150-7d795d17f464" CreationDate="2018-03-22T13:04:58.110" UserId="4271" Text="Who had a Nekyia vs a Katabasis?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15235" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4591" RevisionGUID="f1e6b359-b171-4dbc-b150-7d795d17f464" CreationDate="2018-03-22T13:04:58.110" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|myth-identification|underworld|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15236" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4592" RevisionGUID="29a9c41c-323b-4a0f-b613-f27de0b518cd" CreationDate="2018-03-22T13:23:28.663" UserId="4271" Text="In the Iliad, Zeus and Hera are fighting. Somehow, for reasons I don't remember, Zeus asks the names of Hera's favorite cities. After she tells him, he says he shall sack them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What are the names of Hera's favorite cities? Are direct reasons given in Mythology of why they are her favorites? Any indirect reasons (i.e. she is the patron goddess)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15237" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4592" RevisionGUID="29a9c41c-323b-4a0f-b613-f27de0b518cd" CreationDate="2018-03-22T13:23:28.663" UserId="4271" Text="What are Hera's favorite cities?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15238" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4592" RevisionGUID="29a9c41c-323b-4a0f-b613-f27de0b518cd" CreationDate="2018-03-22T13:23:28.663" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|iliad|hera|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15239" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4583" RevisionGUID="92a17570-b844-488e-9e6f-9bb3b558ebb6" CreationDate="2018-03-22T13:26:36.933" UserId="4271" Comment="fixed spelling" Text="There are four myths that I know of where someone murders another and does something about it to be relieved of it. The first, most famous and only myth saying what is done, is Heracles. He murdered his family under the influence of Hera's madness. His punishment, the 10 trials, only later to be twelve because two were viewed as incomplete.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second is [Copreus][1]. He killed a man named Iphitus. He became a fugitive from Elis and came to Eurystheus. He purified him of the murder and afterward, Copreus became his herald.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The third is of Medea, who killed and separated (cut him up) her brother. She then spread his pieces to halt her father's chase. She directed Jason to her aunt, Circe, to relieve her of the murder.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The last is Bellerophon, who killed his brother or an enemy. Proetus, king of Tiryns, cleansed Bellerophon of his crime.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How is one cleansed of their crime of murder? Did Heracles only have to be cleansed by doing the labors because Hera hated him? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copreus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15240" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4583" RevisionGUID="1620ea89-3ad0-4573-aac3-91bbf74f93e2" CreationDate="2018-03-22T13:32:59.673" UserId="4271" Comment="added to myth" Text="There are four myths that I know of where someone murders another and does something about it to be relieved of it. The first, most famous and only myth saying what is done, is Heracles. He murdered his family under the influence of Hera's madness. His punishment, the 10 trials, only later to be twelve because two were viewed as incomplete.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second is [Copreus][1]. He killed a man named Iphitus. He became a fugitive from Elis and came to Eurystheus. He purified him of the murder and afterward, Copreus became his herald.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The third is of Medea, who killed and separated (cut him up) her brother. She then spread his pieces to halt her father's chase. She directed Jason to her aunt, Circe, to relieve her of the murder.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The last is Bellerophon, who killed his brother or an enemy. Proetus, king of Tiryns, cleansed Bellerophon of his crime. He then started working for the king until his wife took fancy to him...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How is one cleansed of their crime of murder? Did Heracles only have to be cleansed by doing the labors because Hera hated him? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copreus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15242" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4593" RevisionGUID="ad8273b1-4f71-4129-8f32-f9b40b0af5d2" CreationDate="2018-03-23T01:10:43.453" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="In Christian cultures, many people give Easter eggs as presents at Easter. They can be painted chicken's eggs, or they can be chocolate. What are the origins of this practice as a Christian tradition?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15243" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4593" RevisionGUID="ad8273b1-4f71-4129-8f32-f9b40b0af5d2" CreationDate="2018-03-23T01:10:43.453" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="Where do Easter eggs come from?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15244" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4593" RevisionGUID="ad8273b1-4f71-4129-8f32-f9b40b0af5d2" CreationDate="2018-03-23T01:10:43.453" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15245" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4594" RevisionGUID="e6807bc2-08d7-4281-b09a-6e5cdcdbe37a" CreationDate="2018-03-23T01:34:25.460" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="The egg is an ancient symbol of rebirth. Decorated ostrich eggs have been found in Africa that are tens of thousands of years old; representations of ostrich eggs were crafted in gold and silver in ancient Sumeria and Egypt 5000 years ago; and eggs have been decorated to mark [the Iranian new year, Nowruz][1] - the rebirth of the year at the time of the spring equinox - for thousands of years. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The specific Christian tradition of decorating eggs at Easter time started among **early Christians in Mesopotamia, some time before the [First Council of Nicaea][2] in 325 CE**. Easter Sunday comes shortly after the end of Lent[3], a period of fasting during which the consumption of eggs is forbidden. Once the 40 days of Lenten fast are over, it is allowed to eat them again.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first decorated Easter eggs were dyed red to represent the blood that Jesus shed at his crucifixion. This custom connected with legend concerning **Mary Magdalene**. According to one legend, she brought a basket of cooked eggs to share with other woman at Jesus's tomb, and when she saw the risen Christ they turned red. In another, after Christ has ascended Mary Magdalene went to the Roman emperor and greeted him with the words &quot;[Christ has risen][5]&quot;. The emperor pointed to an egg on his table and said &quot;Christ has no more risen than that egg is red&quot;, upon which the egg straightaway turned blood red. &quot;Christ has risen&quot;, or &quot;The Lord has risen&quot;, is known in Eastern churches and some Protestant churches as the Paschal greeting or Easter Acclamation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Red is still the main colour used to dye eggs with at Easter among many [Orthodox Christians][4]. In Greece, the first red-dyed egg is sometimes placed in the home where the icons are positioned, in order to ward off evil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Chocolate Easter eggs][6] date to the 1873, when the [J S Fry chocolate company][7], based in Bristol, England, first marketed them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nowruz&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lent&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paschal_greeting&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_egg#Chocolate_eggs&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._S._Fry_%26_Sons" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15246" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4594" RevisionGUID="40ca385b-3782-491c-b991-a6e917342562" CreationDate="2018-03-23T01:44:23.257" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="added 85 characters in body" Text="The egg is an ancient symbol of rebirth. Decorated ostrich eggs have been found in Africa that are tens of thousands of years old; representations of ostrich eggs were crafted in gold and silver in ancient Sumeria and Egypt 5000 years ago; and eggs have been decorated to mark [the Iranian new year, Nowruz][1] - the rebirth of the year at the time of the spring equinox - for thousands of years. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The specific Christian tradition of decorating eggs at Easter time started among **early Christians in Mesopotamia, some time before the [First Council of Nicaea][2] in 325 CE**. Easter Sunday comes shortly after the end of Lent[3], a period of fasting during which the consumption of eggs is forbidden. Once the 40 days of Lenten fast are over, it is allowed to eat them again.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first decorated Easter eggs were dyed red to represent the blood that Jesus shed at his crucifixion. This custom connected with legend concerning **Mary Magdalene**. According to one legend, she brought a basket of cooked eggs to share with other woman at Jesus's tomb, and when she saw the risen Christ they turned red. In another, after Christ has ascended Mary Magdalene went to the Roman emperor and greeted him with the words &quot;[Christ has risen][4]&quot;. The emperor pointed to an egg on his table and said &quot;Christ has no more risen than that egg is red&quot;, upon which the egg straightaway turned blood red. &quot;Christ has risen&quot;, or &quot;The Lord has risen&quot;, is known in Eastern churches and some Protestant churches as the Paschal greeting or Easter Acclamation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Red is still the main colour used to dye eggs with at Easter among many [Orthodox Christians][5]. In Greece, the first red-dyed egg is sometimes placed in the home where the icons are positioned, in order to ward off evil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Chocolate Easter eggs][6] date to the 1873, when the [J S Fry chocolate company][7], based in Bristol, England, first marketed them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][8]][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][9]][9]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][10]][10]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nowruz&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lent&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paschal_greeting&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_egg#Chocolate_eggs&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._S._Fry_%26_Sons&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/o3Zok.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/uFqOR.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/K3fux.gif" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15247" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4594" RevisionGUID="ceb37852-a32e-46d9-85bf-b9cf55d7daa8" CreationDate="2018-03-23T02:31:42.497" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="The egg is an ancient symbol of rebirth. Decorated ostrich eggs have been found in Africa that are tens of thousands of years old; representations of ostrich eggs were crafted in gold and silver in ancient Sumeria and Egypt 5000 years ago; and eggs have been decorated to mark [the Iranian new year, Nowruz][1] - the rebirth of the year at the time of the spring equinox - for thousands of years. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The specific Christian tradition of decorating eggs at Easter time started among **early Christians in Mesopotamia, some time before the [First Council of Nicaea][2] in 325 CE**. Easter Sunday comes shortly after the end of [Lent][3], a period of fasting during which the consumption of eggs is forbidden. Once the 40 days of Lenten fast are over, it is allowed to eat them again.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first decorated Easter eggs were dyed red to represent the blood that Jesus shed at his crucifixion. This custom connected with legend concerning **Mary Magdalene**. According to one legend, she brought a basket of cooked eggs to share with other woman at Jesus's tomb, and when she saw the risen Christ they turned red. In another, after Christ has ascended Mary Magdalene went to the Roman emperor and greeted him with the words &quot;[Christ has risen][4]&quot;. The emperor pointed to an egg on his table and said &quot;Christ has no more risen than that egg is red&quot;, upon which the egg straightaway turned blood red. &quot;Christ has risen&quot;, or &quot;The Lord has risen&quot;, is known in Eastern churches and some Protestant churches as the Paschal greeting or Easter Acclamation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Red is still the main colour used to dye eggs with at Easter among many [Orthodox Christians][5]. In Greece, the first red-dyed egg is sometimes placed in the home where the icons are positioned, in order to ward off evil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Chocolate Easter eggs][6] date to the 1873, when the [J S Fry chocolate company][7], based in Bristol, England, first marketed them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][8]][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][9]][9]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][10]][10]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nowruz&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lent&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paschal_greeting&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_egg#Chocolate_eggs&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._S._Fry_%26_Sons&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/o3Zok.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/uFqOR.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/K3fux.gif" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15248" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1795" RevisionGUID="690d1f1e-0bd6-47b9-a284-5eb3286e35d1" CreationDate="2018-03-23T04:18:10.660" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected spelling, fixed grammar &amp; added some details" Text="Maybe he actually did.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hypothesis 1. The Dwarven Arts** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to *The Unmanly Man: Concepts of Sexual Defamation in Early Northern Society*, Preben Meulengracht Sørensen is convinced, for some reason, that Loki's milkmaid service &quot;must certainly be taken to mean that Loki served as mistress to giants or trolls,&quot; which he qualifies by adding that the &quot;sexuality [of giants and trolls] was considered gross and unbridled&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is, however, a different group associated with dwelling underground just as much as if not more so than giants or trolls, and that is the dwarves, particularly those of Svartálfaheim (&quot;Black-Elf World/Home&quot;). This seems to be the realm to which, in Skáldskaparmál 35, Loki ventures with a mission to get a collective of artisans called &quot;Ívaldi's Sons&quot; to make new hair for Þórr's [Thor's] wife Sif. With no further explanation, this portion of the Eddas tells us that the artisans made the hair and, seemingly off the cuff, threw in two extra items: Skíðblaðnir, a magic ship which could be folded up and placed in one's pocket like a handkerchief, and which was gifted to the god Freyr; and the magic spear Gungnir, which eventually belonged to Óðinn [Odin].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In circumstances otherwise unexplained, Loki then made a life-and-death wager with a different (rival?) family of dwarf artisans, inducing them to make a few other magic gifts for his fellow deities. This second group of dwarves ended up making, among a few other items, Þórr's famous magic hammer Mjöllnir. In this instance the artisans have clear motivation for this work but it's always puzzled me that there is no explanation ever offered (as far as I'm aware) for why Ívaldi's Sons help Loki at all and go a couple of extra miles in the process, with no apparent word of gratitude towards them. Were they on the Æsir's retainer or something? For them to be so gracious about receiving nothing at all for their labour is completely out of character for dwarves (or for that matter just about every other major ethnic group) in this mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On a later occasion the giant king Þrym [Thrym] somehow managed to steal Mjöllnir from Þórr and then demanded to be given the hand of Freyr's twin, the beautiful goddess Freyja, in marriage. To trick him, Þórr and Loki were compelled to dress in drag in order to impersonate Freyja and her handmaiden respectively, by which ruse they were able to retrieve the magic hammer and slaughter Þrym and his entire family.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A standard part of Þórr's disguise in this instance had to be Freyja's famously bedazzling torc [a type of choker] called Brísingamen. According to *Sörla þáttr eða Heðins saga ok Högna* (&quot;The Tale of Sörli, or of Heðin and Högni&quot;), Freyja once bought a golden necklace from a group of four dwarves who refused monetary payment. Instead they demanded that she lie with each of them for one night, which terms were accepted. *Sörla þáttr* does not say that this necklace is actually the same as Brísingamen nor does it say anything about the dwarves being a group of brothers called the Brísingar, but both these features are popular modern interpretations, as attested by Jimmy Joe's website [TimelessMyths](https://www.timelessmyths.com/norse/beings.html#Brisings) and Ingrid Halvorsen's website [Sunnyway](http://www.sunnyway.com/runes/gods.html#B), perhaps inspired by Roger Lancelyn Green's book *Myths of the Norsemen*, first published in 1960.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Skáldskaparmál offers no further detail regarding Ívaldi's Sons apart from saying that they are dwarves while at the same time suggesting that they are also Svartálfar, &quot;Black Elves.&quot; Again, perhaps taking a cue from Green, Joe numbers these &quot;sons&quot; as four. The reason that Green might do so is to identify the four &quot;Brísingar&quot; with Ívaldi's Sons, whom he (on pp. 78, 84 &amp; 87 of the 1970 edition of his aforementioned book) calls &quot;Black Dwarfs&quot; in a bid to explain why these dwarves have their operations base in Elf-World.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To add my own speculations to those of Sørensen, Green, Joe and Halvorsen, my suggestion here would be that the mission into Giantland undertaken by Þórr and Loki may not have been the first time that Loki disguised himself as a woman associated with Freyja in order to acquire an item for the gods. Earlier in the same story it is Loki who discovers that Þrym has stolen Mjöllnir. He does this by reconnoitering in the form of a falcon. He is able to take this form because of a magic cloak of feathers owned by Freyja, which garment Loki borrows for this purpose. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It stands to reason that there's a missing story here regarding how Ívaldi's Sons came to owe Loki a favour. Perchance this time he didn't borrow clothing from Freyja or pretend to be her servant but actually borrowed her own form and performed a similar service towards the artisans in Svartálfaheim that Freyja would perhaps earlier have done in relation to the four dwarves who made her golden neck-piece, if *Sörla þáttr* is to be believed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On other hand, these dwarves might be Loki's sons with Ívaldi as the father. Throughout the Eddas, [elves and Æsir are cited in close association with each other](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/1745/2682) [see under &quot;Norsemen: The Svartálfar&quot; in link]. The connection between the elves and these dwarves could thus be explained on account of their mother being an Ás [masculine singular of *Æsir*], the same Ás who gave birth, in the form of a mare, to Óðinn's magic horse Sleipnir. It would flow well in hand with Loki's irony and wackiness that he is a giant who becomes the parent of a collective of dwarves who create weaponry for the giants' traditional enemy the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hypothesis 2. The Unweeping Giantess** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Speaking of Loki's offspring, he has a famous daughter, a giant goddess named Hel, or Hela, to whom Óðinn, in the Prose Edda, inexplicably gives apparently absolute authority over anyone who does not die in battle. These dead are sent to the land of perpetual cold, ice, snow and darkness at the northern end of the universe, over which realm Hel has control. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Óðinn soon comes to regret the decision because his beautiful son Balder, the universe's most favourite person, is killed some time afterwards through Loki's treachery, and he naturally goes to Hel. The Æsir must then petition Hel to release Balder (apparently to resurrect) if they wish to see him before they all die at the end of the world. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hel is willing to break the rules and allow this on condition that every single person and object in the universe, dead or alive, weeps for the slain young Ás. If even one thing fails to do so, Balder will only be restored after the Ragnarök, as prophecy says. With that, according to the Gylfaginning, &quot;the Æsir sent over all the world messengers to beg for Balder to be wept out of Hel; and all people did this, and living things, and the earth, and stones, and trees, and all metals&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Presumably even all the giants of Giantland participated as did Hel herself. However, in a certain cave somewhere there sat one giantess, poignantly named Þökk [Thok, &quot;Thanks&quot;], and she said that she had no love for Balder, calling him &quot;the churl's son&quot; and scoffing that Hel can keep him. This giantess, says the Gylfaginning, is suspected to have been Loki in disguise, which would make sense since Loki is the only person who hated Balder. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Immediately following this account is the story of Loki hiding in a mountain waterfall in the form of a salmon before being captured and subjected to some innovative and permanent torture methods by his fellow deities. After that is a description of the Ragnarök. The flytings in *Lokasenna* take place sometime after the messengers' encounter with Þökk and immediately before Loki's escape to the waterfall shortly prior to his final binding. If Þökk really is a cypher for Loki, perhaps [s]he was under such an incredible amount of pressure, as the only being in the entire universe refusing to facilitate the restoration of the world's most [well-]wanted man, that [s]he may indeed have needed to go literally underground. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And, as Loki's previous (mis)adventures have shown, there are certain things he is quite able (if not also quite willing) to do in a bind. Perhaps at the opening of *Lokasenna* eight years have elapsed since the first appearance of Þökk, who has been in hiding in a subterraneous cave in the company of giants or some other creatures, milking their cattle. And doing other things that Loki might do in order to keep up a disguise. This would require that Óðinn and Njörð already know somehow about Þökk-Loki's escapade. With Óðinn's two surveillance ravens, however, this would not be an especially difficult task.             " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15249" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4595" RevisionGUID="03916aa4-0dd6-469c-90fd-7e042eefdc62" CreationDate="2018-03-23T04:29:06.893" UserId="4895" Text="In the cosmos creation myth, Ymir is born from the clash of ice and fire that comes from  Muspelheim and Niflheim. When Odin and his brothers kill Ymir and create the world using his body it sounds like the creation of midgard, but not Yggdrasil itself,the tree isn't event mentioned until the whole cosmos is created. So i'm a litte confused with that omission &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; I think the ash tree has always existed and it will continue even after ragnarok, because it simbolyzes the never ending cycle of life, that the world will always exists even after we are long gone&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can anyone help me with this confusion? thanks&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15250" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4595" RevisionGUID="03916aa4-0dd6-469c-90fd-7e042eefdc62" CreationDate="2018-03-23T04:29:06.893" UserId="4895" Text="Did Yggdrassil exist before the world's creation" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15251" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4595" RevisionGUID="03916aa4-0dd6-469c-90fd-7e042eefdc62" CreationDate="2018-03-23T04:29:06.893" UserId="4895" Text="|norse|odin|creation|yggdrasil|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15252" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4596" RevisionGUID="a2765c67-23e6-446b-9a95-ae75a09378f3" CreationDate="2018-03-23T10:56:45.970" UserId="3491" Text="The Christian feast of 'easter' is based on the ancient Yewish religious feast (their main one), is widely spread and was linked to remember the 'Passion of Christ'. Recall that 'Christianity' started as a Yewish cult that claimed Jesus Christ was the so-called 'Messiah' from Yewish theology/myth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In many countries, this feast is etymologically close to 'Passion' (From _Pas-ch-o_, the Greek word for 'suffering' ), i.e. _Pasen_ in Dutch (also German? Is probably close)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the etymological source of 'easter' seems unrelated! Is this because it refered to another (likely pagan) religious custom? If so, what is that custom?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Otherwise, what is the etymological origin of 'easter'? What is the 'original' easter myth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15253" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4596" RevisionGUID="a2765c67-23e6-446b-9a95-ae75a09378f3" CreationDate="2018-03-23T10:56:45.970" UserId="3491" Text="Why is easter called 'easter'?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15254" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4596" RevisionGUID="a2765c67-23e6-446b-9a95-ae75a09378f3" CreationDate="2018-03-23T10:56:45.970" UserId="3491" Text="|myth-identification|folklore|christianity|abrahamic-religions|etymology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15255" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4597" RevisionGUID="02b92fcf-9217-47f0-ba8c-d7278724131c" CreationDate="2018-03-23T13:16:27.413" UserId="4852" Text="Many have said that it comes from the goddess Ishtar, the Babylonian goddess of fertility, love, war, and sex.  I had actually thought that Easter came directly from worship from *her,* because etymologically speaking, it doesn't seem too far off.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But it seems that the goddess Ēostre (or Ostara), the Germanic goddess, is the one that is directly linked to the Easter festival.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In regards to the myth/custom question, here's a quote from Jacob Grimm:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ostara, Eástre seems therefore to have been the divinity of the radiant dawn, of upspringing light, a spectacle that brings joy and blessing, whose meaning could be easily adapted by the resurrection-day of the Christian's God. Bonfires were lighted at Easter and according to popular belief of long standing, the moment the sun rises on Easter Sunday morning, he gives three joyful leaps, he dances for joy ... Water drawn on the Easter morning is, like that at Christmas, holy and healing ... here also heathen notions seems to have grafted themselves on great Christian festivals. Maidens clothed in white, who at Easter, at the season of returning spring, show themselves in clefts of the rock and on mountains, are suggestive of the ancient goddess.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/wnQef.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%92ostre#/media/File:Ostara_by_Johannes_Gehrts.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Vk1LJ.jpg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think it's safe to say that Easter has pagan origins." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15256" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4598" RevisionGUID="03b97ca0-a7e2-4af1-b258-15918f9136c1" CreationDate="2018-03-23T14:11:23.107" UserId="4852" Text="I recently read Neil Gaiman's *Norse Mythology.*  Although he's probably not considered the top authority on Norse Mythology, he did study the important works of Sturluson.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's a quote right form the beginning, to add to what you already said about Muspelheim and Niflheim (and this quote is on the back cover):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Before the beginning there was nothing - no earth, no heavens, no starts, no sky: only the mist world, formless and shapeless, and the fire world, always burning. - Neil Gaiman's *Norse Mythology*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And then you mention the creation of Ymir, and then his death by Odin and his brothers, who then used his body to create midgard... and so on.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I had to look at the book a second time to see if anything was mentioned about the creation of Yggdrasil, and nothing of the sorts is mentioned, perhaps only implied.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ... is a mighty ash tree, the most perfect and beautiful of all trees: also the largest. It grows between the nine worlds and joins them, each to each.  It is the biggest of all the trees there are, and the finest.  The tops of it's branches are above the sky.  - Neil Gaiman's *Norse Mythology*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What I gather from this, if it grows between the worlds, all it really is is connecting the worlds together with Midgard in the (well...) the center of it all.  This is a geocentric cosmology.  But there is more about Yggdrasil mentioned in the telling of Ragnarok. When Loki and Heimdall are fighting on the battlefield.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;The world is burning,&quot; says Loki. &quot;The mortals are dead. Midgard is destroyed. I have won.&quot; &quot;I can see further than you can, Loki.  I can see all the way to the world-tree,&quot; Heimdall will tell him with his last breath.  &quot;Surtr's fire cannot touch the world-tree, and two people have hidden themselves safely in the trunk of Yggdrasil...&quot; -Neil Gaiman's *Norse Mythology*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*&quot;I think the ash tree has always existed and it will continue even after ragnarok, because it simbolyzes the never ending cycle of life, that the world will always exists even after we are long gone&quot;*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ragnarak has been viewed as the end of a cycle and the beginning of a new one, that there is no ultimate *end.*  What I find interesting about Yggdrasil, is how it's mentioned as growing in between the worlds, or how it's branches are above the sky.  It seems that whatever it really is, is what connects the worlds together (or dimensions).. and that the tree's seemingly indestructible and perfect qualities make it something that resembles some kind of etherial substance that links everything together... and is something beyond or limited to only one dimension.  Perhaps the omission of it's creation is due to the fact that it actually isn't a tree at all... but the tree is the closest tangible &quot;thing&quot; to be used to symbolize it's characteristics and function.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15257" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4599" RevisionGUID="b0d2565e-9391-4c9f-abd5-cec8c93099f3" CreationDate="2018-03-23T14:59:51.347" UserId="4238" Text="&quot;**Ostern**&quot; the **german** word for Easter actually has the same etymology as the english term (citing the German [wiki page][1]): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Das neuhochdeutsche Ostern und das englische Easter haben die gleiche&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sprachliche Wurzel, zu deren Etymologie es verschiedene Lösungsansätze&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gibt. Das Herkunftswörterbuch des Duden leitet das Wort vom&#xD;&#xA;&gt; altgermanischen Austrō &gt; Ausro „Morgenröte“ ab, das eventuell ein&#xD;&#xA;&gt; germanisches Frühlingsfest bezeichnete und sich im Altenglischen zu&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ēostre, Ēastre, im Althochdeutschen zu ōst(a)ra, Plural ōstarun&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fortbildete. Der Wortstamm ist mit dem altgriechischen Namen der&#xD;&#xA;&gt; vergöttlichten Morgenröte Ēōs und dem lateinischen aurora „Morgenröte“&#xD;&#xA;&gt; verwandt, die ihrerseits weitere Sprachen beeinflusst haben.[5] Die&#xD;&#xA;&gt; zugrunde liegende indogermanische Wurzel ist das Substantiv *h₂au̯s-os&#xD;&#xA;&gt; „Morgenröte“, abgeleitet von einer indogermanischen Verbalwurzel&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *h₂u̯es- „(morgens) hell werden“[6] oder *h₂au̯s- „(aus dem Wasser) schöpfen, Feuer holen“.[7]&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One possible origin is the germanic word &quot;*Austrō*&quot;, related to and meaning **aurora**. Another possible origin is an acient germanic feast in spring, named &quot;*Ēostre*&quot; or &quot;*Ēastre*&quot; in old English, which is said to be named after the Greek goddess of aurora **Eos**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostern" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15258" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4600" RevisionGUID="d1f2792b-4f33-458a-90fb-1521ec2dfe7d" CreationDate="2018-03-23T16:49:17.717" UserId="4271" Text="In the end of Book VI of the Odyssey, Odysseus sends up a pray to Athena, Greek goddess of Wisdom and Warfare. It then says Athena does not openly acknowledge him. The reason being that she feared Poseidon's wrath.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [316] So saying, she smote the mules with the shining whip, and they quickly left the streams of the river. Well did they trot, well did they ply their ambling feet, and she drove with care that the maidens and Odysseus might follow on foot, and with judgment did she ply the lash. Then the sun set, and they came to the glorious grove, sacred to Athena. There Odysseus sat him down, and straightway prayed to the daughter of great Zeus: “Hear me, child of aegis-bearing Zeus, unwearied one. Hearken now to my prayer, since aforetime thou didst not hearken when I was smitten, what time the glorious Earth-shaker smote me. Grant that I may come to the Phaeacians as one to be welcomed and to be pitied.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [328] So he spoke in prayer, and Pallas Athena heard him; but she did not yet appear to him face to face, for she feared her father's brother; but he furiously raged against godlike Odysseus, until at length he reached his own land.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Retrieved from [here][1], on: 3/23/2018&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why would Athena, Greek goddess of Wisdom and Warfare, fear Poseidon? Isn't Athena, Greek goddess of Wisdom and Warfare, stronger than Poseidon?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/HomerOdyssey6.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15259" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4600" RevisionGUID="d1f2792b-4f33-458a-90fb-1521ec2dfe7d" CreationDate="2018-03-23T16:49:17.717" UserId="4271" Text="Why would Athena, Greek goddess of Wisdom and Warfare, fear Poseidon?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15260" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4600" RevisionGUID="d1f2792b-4f33-458a-90fb-1521ec2dfe7d" CreationDate="2018-03-23T16:49:17.717" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|odyssey|athena|poseidon|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15261" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1987" RevisionGUID="6c22c515-2528-4f18-bc2e-0684acd9623c" CreationDate="2018-03-23T16:58:30.903" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="15262" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4590" RevisionGUID="ddebf4fa-6e7b-4dcd-a3ed-b84c44f98c57" CreationDate="2018-03-23T18:05:47.140" UserId="4884" Comment="added 1710 characters in body" Text="Note that the Kalevala is not the original source for the Sampo (or anything else). In the early 1800s, the author of Kalevala, [Elias Lönnrot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elias_L%C3%B6nnrot), along with others travelled around Finland and Karelia writing down local folk lore. He then composed the Kalevala by putting various folk stories and songs together in a single more or less consistent epic. In the process he had to pick and choose which stories to use, which versions of each story to use (there often were many different songs about the same story), where to put them in a chronological order and how to tie them together in a single narrative (including adding his own material or modifying the existing songs).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You are correct that the description of the Sampo given in Kalevala is pretty clear. However, that's simply because that's how Lönnrot chose to represent it. Other stories have different and conflicting desriptions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, a common story about Sampo is the theft of Sampo. In the Kalevala version (songs 52 and 53 in the Finnish 1849 edition) Väinämöinen, Ilmarinen and Lemminkäinen sail to the North to steal the Sampo. Louhi, the mistress of the North, pursues them. She turns herself into a giant eagle and grabs the Sampo back from the heroes, but Väinämöinen hits her claws with an oar. The Sampo falls into the sea and is broken. The pieces bring wealth to the lands they drift to.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The following short story collected in 1817 ([SKVR](https://skvr.fi) VII5 Metsäsuomalaiset 10) gives a different version:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Vanha Väjnämöjnen, ja nuori Jompajnen, lähättiin pohjan muaale Sammasta hakemaan. Sieltä suatiin Sammas kiin. Lähättiin merällä. Sano nuori Jompajnen vanha Väjnämöjsälla: alutto jo virsis. Viel on virsinen varrastajn kujn pohjolan muaan uunit kuumotta. Länsi pa Sammas pilvee. Löj nuori Jompajnen miekalla kax varvasta Sammalta pojki; yxi länsi meree, toinen suatiin muaale. Joka länsi meree siite tuli suolat meree. Joka suatiin muaale, siite tuli hejnet muaale. Kujn ojs useet suaanut, nin ojs vilja tullut ilman kylvämättä. Obs! pohjan maan portit näkö tuin uuuin kuumotta.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Old Väinämöinen, and young Jompainen, went to north-land to bring back Sampo. There was Sampo caught. Embarked to the sea. Said young Jompainen to old Väinämöinen: begin your song already. It is early for song when the ovens of north-land still feel warm. The sampo flew to the cloud. Young Jompainen stroke with a sword two toes off Sampo; one flew to the sea, other got the ground. What flew to the sea, it became the salt in the sea. What the ground got, it became the hay. If more was obtained, crops would have come without planting. [the last sentence I don't understand well enough to translate]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here the Sampo seems to be some kind of a bird. Perhaps the giant Eagle that Louhi turns herself into in other stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For another example, SKVR VII1 679 (too long for me to translate the whole song) tells a variation of the story where Väinämöinen, Ilmarinen and Joukahainen travel to the North to steal cattle or quarry rather than the Sampo. Instead the Sampo is actually the ship that they sail on. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    [...]&#xD;&#xA;    Iki vanha Väinämöinen             Ancient old Väinämöinen&#xD;&#xA;    Meni riista riihen luokse,        Went to quarry barn [/kiln?],&#xD;&#xA;    Oluella ukset voiti,              With beer greased the doors,&#xD;&#xA;    Kaljalla saranat kasto,           With beer wetted the hinges&#xD;&#xA;    Jott ei ulvo Pohjan Ukset,        So wouldn't howl North's doors,&#xD;&#xA;    Nau'u Hiitolan saranat.           meow the hinges of Hiitola.&#xD;&#xA;    Latjaeli laivan täyen,            Loaded a full ship,&#xD;&#xA;    Saatto suuren sammon täy'en,      Guided a grand Sampo full,&#xD;&#xA;    Laitto laivansa merelle,          Put his ship to sea,&#xD;&#xA;    Saatto sammon lainehille.         Guided Sampo to the waves.&#xD;&#xA;    [...]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the song it seems like the heroes already had the ship-Sampo, but there is one part that might suggest that they stole it as well:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    [...]&#xD;&#xA;    Virkki nuori Joukamoinen:          Said young Joukamoinen [/Joukahainen]&#xD;&#xA;    &quot;Laula, vanha Väinämöinen,         &quot;Sing, old Väinämöinen,&#xD;&#xA;    Hyreksi, hyvä sukunen,             Hum, good kin,&#xD;&#xA;    Pohjolassa käytyäsi,               Having been to North,&#xD;&#xA;    Hyvän sammen saatuasi!&quot;            Having gained a good Sampo!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;    [...]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's not clear why Joukahainen says that they gained a &quot;good Sampo&quot; if they already had the ship. However Louhi doesn't mention anything about having lost a ship when she notices the theft:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    [...]&#xD;&#xA;    Tuosta Pohjolan emäntä             Then the mistress of North&#xD;&#xA;    Juoksi riista riihen luokse        Ran to the quarry barn&#xD;&#xA;    Kartanoa katsomahan:               Too see the estate:&#xD;&#xA;    Riista kaikki pois kadonna.        All quarry had disappeared.&#xD;&#xA;    Katso karjansa katoavan,           Sees her cattle disappearing,&#xD;&#xA;    Alenevan arviohon.                 lowering the estimate. [not sure how to translate this line]&#xD;&#xA;    [...]" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15263" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4590" RevisionGUID="1df91439-5619-4313-a79a-a377c08a0b94" CreationDate="2018-03-23T18:18:50.190" UserId="4884" Comment="Direct links to SKVR" Text="Note that the Kalevala is not the original source for the Sampo (or anything else). In the early 1800s, the author of Kalevala, [Elias Lönnrot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elias_L%C3%B6nnrot), along with others travelled around Finland and Karelia writing down local folk lore. He then composed the Kalevala by putting various folk stories and songs together in a single more or less consistent epic. In the process he had to pick and choose which stories to use, which versions of each story to use (there often were many different songs about the same story), where to put them in a chronological order and how to tie them together in a single narrative (including adding his own material or modifying the existing songs).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You are correct that the description of the Sampo given in Kalevala is pretty clear. However, that's simply because that's how Lönnrot chose to represent it. Other stories have different and conflicting desriptions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, a common story about Sampo is the theft of Sampo. In the Kalevala version (songs 52 and 53 in the Finnish 1849 edition) Väinämöinen, Ilmarinen and Lemminkäinen sail to the North to steal the Sampo. Louhi, the mistress of the North, pursues them. She turns herself into a giant eagle and grabs the Sampo back from the heroes, but Väinämöinen hits her claws with an oar. The Sampo falls into the sea and is broken. The pieces bring wealth to the lands they drift to.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The following short story collected in 1817 ([SKVR VII5 Metsäsuomalaiset 10](https://skvr.fi/poem/skvr07300100)) gives a different version:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Vanha Väjnämöjnen, ja nuori Jompajnen, lähättiin pohjan muaale Sammasta hakemaan. Sieltä suatiin Sammas kiin. Lähättiin merällä. Sano nuori Jompajnen vanha Väjnämöjsälla: alutto jo virsis. Viel on virsinen varrastajn kujn pohjolan muaan uunit kuumotta. Länsi pa Sammas pilvee. Löj nuori Jompajnen miekalla kax varvasta Sammalta pojki; yxi länsi meree, toinen suatiin muaale. Joka länsi meree siite tuli suolat meree. Joka suatiin muaale, siite tuli hejnet muaale. Kujn ojs useet suaanut, nin ojs vilja tullut ilman kylvämättä. Obs! pohjan maan portit näkö tuin uuuin kuumotta.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Old Väinämöinen, and young Jompainen, went to north-land to bring back Sampo. There was Sampo caught. Embarked to the sea. Said young Jompainen to old Väinämöinen: begin your song already. It is early for song when the ovens of north-land still feel warm. The sampo flew to the cloud. Young Jompainen stroke with a sword two toes off Sampo; one flew to the sea, other got the ground. What flew to the sea, it became the salt in the sea. What the ground got, it became the hay. If more was obtained, crops would have come without planting. [the last sentence I don't understand well enough to translate]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here the Sampo seems to be some kind of a bird. Perhaps the giant Eagle that Louhi turns herself into in other stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For another example, [SKVR VII1 679](https://skvr.fi/poem/skvr07106790) (too long for me to translate the whole song) tells a variation of the story where Väinämöinen, Ilmarinen and Joukahainen travel to the North to steal cattle or quarry rather than the Sampo. Instead the Sampo is actually the ship that they sail on. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    [...]&#xD;&#xA;    Iki vanha Väinämöinen             Ancient old Väinämöinen&#xD;&#xA;    Meni riista riihen luokse,        Went to quarry barn [/kiln?],&#xD;&#xA;    Oluella ukset voiti,              With beer greased the doors,&#xD;&#xA;    Kaljalla saranat kasto,           With beer wetted the hinges&#xD;&#xA;    Jott ei ulvo Pohjan Ukset,        So wouldn't howl North's doors,&#xD;&#xA;    Nau'u Hiitolan saranat.           meow the hinges of Hiitola.&#xD;&#xA;    Latjaeli laivan täyen,            Loaded a full ship,&#xD;&#xA;    Saatto suuren sammon täy'en,      Guided a grand Sampo full,&#xD;&#xA;    Laitto laivansa merelle,          Put his ship to sea,&#xD;&#xA;    Saatto sammon lainehille.         Guided Sampo to the waves.&#xD;&#xA;    [...]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the song it seems like the heroes already had the ship-Sampo, but there is one part that might suggest that they stole it as well:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    [...]&#xD;&#xA;    Virkki nuori Joukamoinen:          Said young Joukamoinen [/Joukahainen]&#xD;&#xA;    &quot;Laula, vanha Väinämöinen,         &quot;Sing, old Väinämöinen,&#xD;&#xA;    Hyreksi, hyvä sukunen,             Hum, good kin,&#xD;&#xA;    Pohjolassa käytyäsi,               Having been to North,&#xD;&#xA;    Hyvän sammen saatuasi!&quot;            Having gained a good Sampo!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;    [...]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's not clear why Joukahainen says that they gained a &quot;good Sampo&quot; if they already had the ship. However Louhi doesn't mention anything about having lost a ship when she notices the theft:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    [...]&#xD;&#xA;    Tuosta Pohjolan emäntä             Then the mistress of North&#xD;&#xA;    Juoksi riista riihen luokse        Ran to the quarry barn&#xD;&#xA;    Kartanoa katsomahan:               Too see the estate:&#xD;&#xA;    Riista kaikki pois kadonna.        All quarry had disappeared.&#xD;&#xA;    Katso karjansa katoavan,           Sees her cattle disappearing,&#xD;&#xA;    Alenevan arviohon.                 lowering the estimate. [not sure how to translate this line]&#xD;&#xA;    [...]" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15264" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4590" RevisionGUID="ccf9d1a7-9d9c-4a02-82ba-a79a9a9832a0" CreationDate="2018-03-23T18:30:38.157" UserId="4884" Comment="added 264 characters in body" Text="Note that the Kalevala is not the original source for the Sampo (or anything else). In the early 1800s, the author of Kalevala, [Elias Lönnrot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elias_L%C3%B6nnrot), along with others travelled around Finland and Karelia writing down local folk lore. He then composed the Kalevala by putting various folk stories and songs together in a single more or less consistent epic. In the process he had to pick and choose which stories to use, which versions of each story to use (there often were many different songs about the same story), where to put them in a chronological order and how to tie them together in a single narrative (including adding his own material or modifying the existing songs).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You are correct that the description of the Sampo given in Kalevala is pretty clear. However, that's simply because that's how Lönnrot chose to represent it. Other stories have different and conflicting desriptions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, a common story about Sampo is the theft of Sampo. In the Kalevala version (songs 52 and 53 in the Finnish 1849 edition) Väinämöinen, Ilmarinen and Lemminkäinen sail to the North to steal the Sampo. Louhi, the mistress of the North, pursues them. She turns herself into a giant eagle and grabs the Sampo back from the heroes, but Väinämöinen hits her claws with an oar. The Sampo falls into the sea and is broken. The pieces bring wealth to the lands they drift to.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The following short story collected in 1817 ([SKVR VII5 Metsäsuomalaiset 10](https://skvr.fi/poem/skvr07300100)) gives a different version:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Vanha Väjnämöjnen, ja nuori Jompajnen, lähättiin pohjan muaale Sammasta hakemaan. Sieltä suatiin Sammas kiin. Lähättiin merällä. Sano nuori Jompajnen vanha Väjnämöjsälla: alutto jo virsis. Viel on virsinen varrastajn kujn pohjolan muaan uunit kuumotta. Länsi pa Sammas pilvee. Löj nuori Jompajnen miekalla kax varvasta Sammalta pojki; yxi länsi meree, toinen suatiin muaale. Joka länsi meree siite tuli suolat meree. Joka suatiin muaale, siite tuli hejnet muaale. Kujn ojs useet suaanut, nin ojs vilja tullut ilman kylvämättä. Obs! pohjan maan portit näkö tuin uuuin kuumotta.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Old Väinämöinen, and young Jompainen, went to north-land to bring back Sampo. There was Sampo caught. Embarked to the sea. Said young Jompainen to old Väinämöinen: begin your song already. It is early for song when the ovens of north-land still feel warm. The sampo flew to the cloud. Young Jompainen stroke with a sword two toes off Sampo; one flew to the sea, other got the ground. What flew to the sea, it became the salt in the sea. What the ground got, it became the hay. If more was obtained, crops would have come without planting. [the last sentence I don't understand well enough to translate]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here the Sampo seems to be some kind of a bird. Perhaps the giant Eagle that Louhi turns herself into in other stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For another example, [SKVR VII1 679](https://skvr.fi/poem/skvr07106790) (too long for me to translate the whole song) tells a variation of the story where Väinämöinen, Ilmarinen and Joukahainen travel to the North to steal cattle or quarry rather than the Sampo. Instead the Sampo is actually the ship that they sail on. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    [...]&#xD;&#xA;    Iki vanha Väinämöinen             Ancient old Väinämöinen&#xD;&#xA;    Meni riista riihen luokse,        Went to quarry barn [/kiln?],&#xD;&#xA;    Oluella ukset voiti,              With beer greased the doors,&#xD;&#xA;    Kaljalla saranat kasto,           With beer wetted the hinges&#xD;&#xA;    Jott ei ulvo Pohjan Ukset,        So wouldn't howl North's doors,&#xD;&#xA;    Nau'u Hiitolan saranat.           meow the hinges of Hiitola.&#xD;&#xA;    Latjaeli laivan täyen,            Loaded a full ship,&#xD;&#xA;    Saatto suuren sammon täy'en,      Guided a grand Sampo full,&#xD;&#xA;    Laitto laivansa merelle,          Put his ship to sea,&#xD;&#xA;    Saatto sammon lainehille.         Guided Sampo to the waves.&#xD;&#xA;    [...]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the song it seems like the heroes already had the ship-Sampo, but there is one part that might suggest that they stole it as well:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    [...]&#xD;&#xA;    Virkki nuori Joukamoinen:          Said young Joukamoinen [/Joukahainen]&#xD;&#xA;    &quot;Laula, vanha Väinämöinen,         &quot;Sing, old Väinämöinen,&#xD;&#xA;    Hyreksi, hyvä sukunen,             Hum, good kin,&#xD;&#xA;    Pohjolassa käytyäsi,               Having been to North,&#xD;&#xA;    Hyvän sammen saatuasi!&quot;            Having gained a good Sampo!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;    [...]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's not clear why Joukahainen says that they gained a &quot;good Sampo&quot; if they already had the ship. However Louhi doesn't mention anything about having lost a ship when she notices the theft:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    [...]&#xD;&#xA;    Tuosta Pohjolan emäntä             Then the mistress of North&#xD;&#xA;    Juoksi riista riihen luokse        Ran to the quarry barn&#xD;&#xA;    Kartanoa katsomahan:               Too see the estate:&#xD;&#xA;    Riista kaikki pois kadonna.        All quarry had disappeared.&#xD;&#xA;    Katso karjansa katoavan,           Sees her cattle disappearing,&#xD;&#xA;    Alenevan arviohon.                 lowering the estimate. [not sure how to translate this line]&#xD;&#xA;    [...]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The singer of this song explained themselves that the Sampo is indeed a ship. Although if you ignore their explanation and only look at the words, you might be able to interpret it so that the Sampo doesn't actually refer to the ship, but to the stolen quarry." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15265" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4590" RevisionGUID="c15a2ba0-38b0-4223-84f8-bf90fc6c8842" CreationDate="2018-03-23T18:56:45.997" UserId="4884" Comment="Fix numbers" Text="Note that the Kalevala is not the original source for the Sampo (or anything else). In the early 1800s, the author of Kalevala, [Elias Lönnrot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elias_L%C3%B6nnrot), along with others travelled around Finland and Karelia writing down local folk lore. He then composed the Kalevala by putting various folk stories and songs together in a single more or less consistent epic. In the process he had to pick and choose which stories to use, which versions of each story to use (there often were many different songs about the same story), where to put them in a chronological order and how to tie them together in a single narrative (including adding his own material or modifying the existing songs).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You are correct that the description of the Sampo given in Kalevala is pretty clear. However, that's simply because that's how Lönnrot chose to represent it. Other stories have different and conflicting desriptions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, a common story about Sampo is the theft of Sampo. In the Kalevala version (songs 42 and 43 in the Finnish 1849 edition) Väinämöinen, Ilmarinen and Lemminkäinen sail to the North to steal the Sampo. Louhi, the mistress of the North, pursues them. She turns herself into a giant eagle and grabs the Sampo back from the heroes, but Väinämöinen hits her claws with an oar. The Sampo falls into the sea and is broken. The pieces bring wealth to the lands they drift to.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The following short story collected in 1817 ([SKVR VII5 Metsäsuomalaiset 10](https://skvr.fi/poem/skvr07300100)) gives a different version:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Vanha Väjnämöjnen, ja nuori Jompajnen, lähättiin pohjan muaale Sammasta hakemaan. Sieltä suatiin Sammas kiin. Lähättiin merällä. Sano nuori Jompajnen vanha Väjnämöjsälla: alutto jo virsis. Viel on virsinen varrastajn kujn pohjolan muaan uunit kuumotta. Länsi pa Sammas pilvee. Löj nuori Jompajnen miekalla kax varvasta Sammalta pojki; yxi länsi meree, toinen suatiin muaale. Joka länsi meree siite tuli suolat meree. Joka suatiin muaale, siite tuli hejnet muaale. Kujn ojs useet suaanut, nin ojs vilja tullut ilman kylvämättä. Obs! pohjan maan portit näkö tuin uuuin kuumotta.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Old Väinämöinen, and young Jompainen, went to north-land to bring back Sampo. There was Sampo caught. Embarked to the sea. Said young Jompainen to old Väinämöinen: begin your song already. It is early for song when the ovens of north-land still feel warm. The sampo flew to the cloud. Young Jompainen stroke with a sword two toes off Sampo; one flew to the sea, other got the ground. What flew to the sea, it became the salt in the sea. What the ground got, it became the hay. If more was obtained, crops would have come without planting. [the last sentence I don't understand well enough to translate]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here the Sampo seems to be some kind of a bird. Perhaps the giant Eagle that Louhi turns herself into in other stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For another example, [SKVR VII1 679](https://skvr.fi/poem/skvr07106790) (too long for me to translate the whole song) tells a variation of the story where Väinämöinen, Ilmarinen and Joukahainen travel to the North to steal cattle or quarry rather than the Sampo. Instead the Sampo is actually the ship that they sail on. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    [...]&#xD;&#xA;    Iki vanha Väinämöinen             Ancient old Väinämöinen&#xD;&#xA;    Meni riista riihen luokse,        Went to quarry barn [/kiln?],&#xD;&#xA;    Oluella ukset voiti,              With beer greased the doors,&#xD;&#xA;    Kaljalla saranat kasto,           With beer wetted the hinges&#xD;&#xA;    Jott ei ulvo Pohjan Ukset,        So wouldn't howl North's doors,&#xD;&#xA;    Nau'u Hiitolan saranat.           meow the hinges of Hiitola.&#xD;&#xA;    Latjaeli laivan täyen,            Loaded a full ship,&#xD;&#xA;    Saatto suuren sammon täy'en,      Guided a grand Sampo full,&#xD;&#xA;    Laitto laivansa merelle,          Put his ship to sea,&#xD;&#xA;    Saatto sammon lainehille.         Guided Sampo to the waves.&#xD;&#xA;    [...]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the song it seems like the heroes already had the ship-Sampo, but there is one part that might suggest that they stole it as well:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    [...]&#xD;&#xA;    Virkki nuori Joukamoinen:          Said young Joukamoinen [/Joukahainen]&#xD;&#xA;    &quot;Laula, vanha Väinämöinen,         &quot;Sing, old Väinämöinen,&#xD;&#xA;    Hyreksi, hyvä sukunen,             Hum, good kin,&#xD;&#xA;    Pohjolassa käytyäsi,               Having been to North,&#xD;&#xA;    Hyvän sammen saatuasi!&quot;            Having gained a good Sampo!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;    [...]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's not clear why Joukahainen says that they gained a &quot;good Sampo&quot; if they already had the ship. However Louhi doesn't mention anything about having lost a ship when she notices the theft:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    [...]&#xD;&#xA;    Tuosta Pohjolan emäntä             Then the mistress of North&#xD;&#xA;    Juoksi riista riihen luokse        Ran to the quarry barn&#xD;&#xA;    Kartanoa katsomahan:               Too see the estate:&#xD;&#xA;    Riista kaikki pois kadonna.        All quarry had disappeared.&#xD;&#xA;    Katso karjansa katoavan,           Sees her cattle disappearing,&#xD;&#xA;    Alenevan arviohon.                 lowering the estimate. [not sure how to translate this line]&#xD;&#xA;    [...]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The singer of this song explained themselves that the Sampo is indeed a ship. Although if you ignore their explanation and only look at the words, you might be able to interpret it so that the Sampo doesn't actually refer to the ship, but to the stolen quarry." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15266" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4594" RevisionGUID="d822a5b9-17a0-4139-8653-5b1239fa3113" CreationDate="2018-03-23T20:32:17.617" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="deleted 9 characters in body" Text="The egg is an ancient symbol of rebirth. Decorated ostrich eggs have been found in Africa that are tens of thousands of years old; representations of ostrich eggs were crafted in gold and silver in ancient Sumeria and Egypt 5000 years ago; and eggs have been decorated to mark [the Iranian new year, Nowruz][1] - the rebirth of the year at the time of the spring equinox - for thousands of years. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The specific Christian tradition of decorating eggs at Easter time started among **early Christians in Mesopotamia, some time before the [First Council of Nicaea][2] in 325 CE**. Easter Sunday comes shortly after the end of [Lent][3], a period of fasting during which the consumption of eggs is forbidden. Once the 40 days of Lenten fast are over, it is allowed to eat them again.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first decorated Easter eggs were dyed red to represent the blood that Jesus shed at his crucifixion. This custom connected with legend concerning **Mary Magdalene**. According to one legend, she brought a basket of cooked eggs to share with other woman at Jesus's tomb, and when she saw the risen Christ they turned red. In another, after Christ has ascended Mary Magdalene went to the Roman emperor and greeted him with the words &quot;[Christ has risen][4]&quot;. The emperor pointed to an egg on his table and said &quot;Christ has no more risen than that egg is red&quot;, upon which the egg straightaway turned blood red. &quot;Christ has risen&quot;, or &quot;The Lord has risen&quot;, is known in Eastern churches and some Protestant churches as the Paschal greeting or Easter Acclamation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Red is still the main colour used to dye eggs at Easter among many [Orthodox Christians][5]. In Greece, the first red-dyed egg is sometimes placed in the home where the icons are positioned, in order to ward off evil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Chocolate Easter eggs][6] date to 1873, when the [J S Fry chocolate company][7], based in Bristol, England, first marketed them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][8]][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][9]][9]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][10]][10]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nowruz&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lent&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paschal_greeting&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_egg#Chocolate_eggs&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._S._Fry_%26_Sons&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/o3Zok.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/uFqOR.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/K3fux.gif" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15267" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4594" RevisionGUID="eb3c7eb3-8edd-4210-bf98-dd988ea189af" CreationDate="2018-03-23T20:44:41.943" UserId="2892" Comment="started working through the question to link to actual sources.  Sources need to be academic or vetted, so National Geographic and Penn Museum are fine, but random websites are not (just a reminder b/c this is a topic where there is bound to be widely distributed misinformation.) " Text="The egg is an ancient symbol of rebirth. [Decorated ostrich eggs have been found in Africa that are ~60,000 years old][1]; representations of ostrich eggs were crafted in gold and silver in [ancient Sumeria, Egypt and the Mediterranean][2]; and eggs have been decorated to mark [the Iranian new year, Nowruz][3] - the rebirth of the year at the time of the spring equinox - for thousands of years. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Already used as a container in North Africa before the Bronze Age, the ostrich egg was best known in the Late Bronze Age Aegean world as a [rhyton][4]. This was an often highly decorated vessel which might sometimes have been used in religious ceremonies; ex­amples of ostrich egg rhyta are known from mainland Greece, the Aegean islands, and Cyprus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The specific Christian tradition of decorating eggs at Easter time started among **early Christians in Mesopotamia, some time before the [First Council of Nicaea][5] in 325 CE**. Easter Sunday comes shortly after the end of [Lent][6], a period of fasting during which the consumption of eggs is forbidden. Once the 40 days of Lenten fast are over, it is allowed to eat them again.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first decorated Easter eggs were dyed red to represent the blood that Jesus shed at his crucifixion. This custom connected with legend concerning **Mary Magdalene**. According to one legend, she brought a basket of cooked eggs to share with other woman at Jesus's tomb, and when she saw the risen Christ they turned red. In another, after Christ has ascended Mary Magdalene went to the Roman emperor and greeted him with the words &quot;[Christ has risen][7]&quot;. The emperor pointed to an egg on his table and said &quot;Christ has no more risen than that egg is red&quot;, upon which the egg straightaway turned blood red. &quot;Christ has risen&quot;, or &quot;The Lord has risen&quot;, is known in Eastern churches and some Protestant churches as the Paschal greeting or Easter Acclamation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Red is still the main colour used to dye eggs at Easter among many [Orthodox Christians][8]. In Greece, the first red-dyed egg is sometimes placed in the home where the icons are positioned, in order to ward off evil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Chocolate Easter eggs][9] date to 1873, when the [J S Fry chocolate company][10], based in Bristol, England, first marketed them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][11]][11]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][12]][12]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][13]][13]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2010/03/01/an-60000-year-old-artistic-movement-recorded-in-ostrich-egg-shells/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.penn.museum/sites/expedition/ostrich-eggs/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nowruz&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhyton&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lent&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paschal_greeting&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_egg#Chocolate_eggs&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._S._Fry_%26_Sons&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/o3Zok.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/uFqOR.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/K3fux.gif" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15268" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4599" RevisionGUID="e5855303-bd03-4ca6-bea3-10a790303d28" CreationDate="2018-03-23T21:24:50.033" UserId="2892" Comment="added a google translate translation.  Luckily German to English and visa versa is pretty straightforward!" Text="&quot;**Ostern**&quot; the **german** word for Easter actually has the same etymology as the english term (citing the German [wiki page][1]): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Das neuhochdeutsche Ostern und das englische Easter haben die gleiche&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sprachliche Wurzel, zu deren Etymologie es verschiedene Lösungsansätze&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gibt. Das Herkunftswörterbuch des Duden leitet das Wort vom&#xD;&#xA;&gt; altgermanischen Austrō &gt; Ausro „Morgenröte“ ab, das eventuell ein&#xD;&#xA;&gt; germanisches Frühlingsfest bezeichnete und sich im Altenglischen zu&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ēostre, Ēastre, im Althochdeutschen zu ōst(a)ra, Plural ōstarun&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fortbildete. Der Wortstamm ist mit dem altgriechischen Namen der&#xD;&#xA;&gt; vergöttlichten Morgenröte Ēōs und dem lateinischen aurora „Morgenröte“&#xD;&#xA;&gt; verwandt, die ihrerseits weitere Sprachen beeinflusst haben. Die&#xD;&#xA;&gt; zugrunde liegende indogermanische Wurzel ist das Substantiv *h₂au̯s-os&#xD;&#xA;&gt; „Morgenröte“, abgeleitet von einer indogermanischen Verbalwurzel&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *h₂u̯es- „(morgens) hell werden“[6] oder *h₂au̯s- „(aus dem Wasser) schöpfen, Feuer holen“.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One possible origin is the germanic word &quot;*Austrō*&quot;, related to and meaning **aurora**. Another possible origin is an acient germanic feast in spring, named &quot;*Ēostre*&quot; or &quot;*Ēastre*&quot; in old English, which is said to be named after the Greek goddess of aurora **Eos**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The New High German Easter and the English Easter have the same linguistic root, to whose etymology there are different approaches. The dictionary of origin of the Duden derives the word from the Old Germanic Austrō&gt; Ausro &quot;dawn&quot;, which eventually designated a Germanic spring festival and Ēostre in Old English, Ēastre, in the Old High German ōst (a) ra, Plural ōstarun continued education. The root word is related to the ancient Greek name of the divinized dawn Ēōs and the Latin aurora &quot;dawn&quot;, which in turn have influenced other languages. The underlying Indo-European root is the noun * h₂au̯s-os &quot;dawn&quot;, derived from an Indo-European verbal root * h₂u̯es- &quot;be bright in the morning&quot; or * h₂au̯s- &quot;(from the water) draw, get a fire. &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Google Translate][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostern&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://translate.google.com/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15269" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4591" RevisionGUID="09e93eb6-a931-4eab-b4e0-39b43469cacf" CreationDate="2018-03-23T21:45:50.253" UserId="2892" Comment="added 347 characters in body" Text="A [Nekyia][1] ([νέκυια][2]) is a ritual to summon the dead. An example of this is Odysseus in the Odyssey. A [Katabasis][3] ([κατάβασις][4]) is a journey into the Underworld while still living. Heracles is one hero who did this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who was doing what in Greek Mythology and what was their reason for doing it?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nekyia&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dne%2Fkuia&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katabasis&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkata%2Fbasis" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15270" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4601" RevisionGUID="7846da1a-7f24-47b6-b00e-6bbc1ae781f0" CreationDate="2018-03-23T23:21:07.577" UserId="3491" Text="The 'goethia' is a list of numbered (Christian, as in rulers of hell) demons of which their benefits are documented (this one only speaks the truth in a magical circle, this one provides great riches, etc) and their position as a (smaller) lord of hell, e.g. A Grand Duke of hell, commanding 16 legions of demons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've seen these demons used in some derived works, such as _Shin Megami Tensei_ ('true goddess reincarnation', the title is meaningless, but the series very much covers demonic pacts in the modern age) or some random internet fiction (one that covers the _freemasons_ essentially regulating demon summoning and fighting against a 'rogue' summoner that has somehow freed a major demon. Mighty demons from the goethia are send to drag him to hell)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The descriptions are consistent, which suggests a common source (also, almost all demons from the _Shin Megami Tensei_ are literally real myths or based on them. This is not hidden, Lucifer and YHWH occur in most games in the series (although their motives are ... _interesting_))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, what even _is_ the Goethia? Is this an old occult manual? Some tale or collection of tales? Does it have anything to do with _Goethe_? (Perhaps the tale of _Faust_ and the demon summoned by the name of _Mephistofeles_?)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, what sort of mythological artifact is this 'goethia' and where can I find an authoritative source on it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15271" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4601" RevisionGUID="7846da1a-7f24-47b6-b00e-6bbc1ae781f0" CreationDate="2018-03-23T23:21:07.577" UserId="3491" Text="What is the mythological status of the 'goethia' demons?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15272" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4601" RevisionGUID="7846da1a-7f24-47b6-b00e-6bbc1ae781f0" CreationDate="2018-03-23T23:21:07.577" UserId="3491" Text="|myth-identification|history|reference-request|european-folklore|demons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15273" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4594" RevisionGUID="ca055ed7-1c20-4c22-ba04-10bb073cb743" CreationDate="2018-03-23T23:25:26.250" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="added 6 characters in body" Text="The egg is an ancient symbol of rebirth. [Decorated ostrich eggs have been found in Africa that are around 60,000 years old][1]; representations of ostrich eggs were crafted in gold and silver in [ancient Sumeria, Egypt and the Mediterranean][2]; and eggs have been decorated to mark [the Iranian new year, Nowruz][3] - the rebirth of the year at the time of the spring equinox - for thousands of years. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Already used as a container in North Africa before the Bronze Age, the ostrich egg was best known in the Late Bronze Age Aegean world as a [rhyton][4]. This was an often highly decorated vessel which might sometimes have been used in religious ceremonies; ex­amples of ostrich egg rhyta are known from mainland Greece, the Aegean islands, and Cyprus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The specific Christian tradition of decorating eggs at Easter time started among **early Christians in Mesopotamia, some time before the [First Council of Nicaea][5] in 325 CE**. Easter Sunday comes shortly after the end of [Lent][6], a period of fasting during which the consumption of eggs is forbidden. Once the 40 days of Lenten fast are over, it is allowed to eat them again.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first decorated Easter eggs were dyed red to represent the blood that Jesus shed at his crucifixion. This custom connected with legend concerning **Mary Magdalene**. According to one legend, she brought a basket of cooked eggs to share with other woman at Jesus's tomb, and when she saw the risen Christ they turned red. In another, after Christ has ascended Mary Magdalene went to the Roman emperor and greeted him with the words &quot;[Christ has risen][7]&quot;. The emperor pointed to an egg on his table and said &quot;Christ has no more risen than that egg is red&quot;, upon which the egg straightaway turned blood red. &quot;Christ has risen&quot;, or &quot;The Lord has risen&quot;, is known in Eastern churches and some Protestant churches as the Paschal greeting or Easter Acclamation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Red is still the main colour used to dye eggs at Easter among many [Orthodox Christians][8]. In Greece, the first red-dyed egg is sometimes placed in the home where the icons are positioned, in order to ward off evil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Chocolate Easter eggs][9] date to 1873, when the [J S Fry chocolate company][10], based in Bristol, England, first marketed them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][11]][11]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][12]][12]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][13]][13]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2010/03/01/an-60000-year-old-artistic-movement-recorded-in-ostrich-egg-shells/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.penn.museum/sites/expedition/ostrich-eggs/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nowruz&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhyton&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lent&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paschal_greeting&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_egg#Chocolate_eggs&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._S._Fry_%26_Sons&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/o3Zok.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/uFqOR.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/K3fux.gif" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15274" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="4593" RevisionGUID="bf08e510-1bc0-498d-8c48-6e8d51b0fc8d" CreationDate="2018-03-24T00:24:57.737" UserId="4555" Comment="Added the tag &quot;Christianity&quot;" Text="|folklore|christianity|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15275" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4593" RevisionGUID="bf08e510-1bc0-498d-8c48-6e8d51b0fc8d" CreationDate="2018-03-24T00:24:57.737" Comment="Proposed by 4555 approved by 2892, 1241 edit id of 1586" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15276" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4566" RevisionGUID="5a11b6d0-48a6-4a8c-9d15-83e7f82a0286" CreationDate="2018-03-24T18:45:09.230" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="**The oversimplified, triple-diluted answer is that they used their Greek names.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But then, with the Question worded as it is, the answer is not justifiably so simple. The breakdown thereof can be approached in two different ways: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - From inside the narrative world, in which we assume that the Trojans' depiction in the myths is accurate and thus the basis of what we should understand about them; and &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA; - From outside the narrative world, based on deductions of what the &#xD;&#xA;   people inhabiting the place supposedly called Troy were actually like &quot;IRL&quot; (&quot;in real life,&quot; as they say in video-game parlance) at the time that the Trojan War is supposed to have taken place.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Timeframe of the Latins and Their Language**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The events in question, if they did occur, would have transpired sometime in the 1200s BC. It is highly unlikely that, by then, anyone anywhere in the world was speaking Latin, which comes into any sort of prominence only about 400 years afterwards. In the narrative world there are a few different traditions regarding the tribe of the Latins, whose language would eventually give us the Roman names of the gods. All these traditions point toward a character named Latinos (Λατῖνος), whom the Romans called Latinus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Logically the language that was named after him should have began to develop no earlier than within his lifetime. In Greek mythology, Latinos' father is either Odysseus (a Greek king who fought in the Trojan War) or Herakles (who lived a generation before the war). One late interpretation (by Ioannes Lydos in the 6th century AD) of Hesiod's *Catalogues of Women* tries to make Latinos into an earlier figure, saying that he lived not long after the Flood of Deukalion, and that he was in fact the son of Zeus by a daughter of Deukalion, which would have meant he was long dead by the time Troy was under construction.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the myths, the builders of Troy are essentially Greek colonists who settle in Asia Minor and establish a new kingdom there a short while before the Trojan War. Their culture and religion are, for the most part, indistinguishable from those of their enemies who eventually destroy their kingdom and its stronghold, and they worship the same gods in the same ways with similar priesthoods, rituals and prophecy customs. &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Since there would not have been Roman or Latin renditions of anyone's names available for the Trojans' use, the Trojans therefore would have used the Greek names of the gods. This may have changed very gradually after the war, following the migration to Latium of some of the surviving Trojans. In the Deukalionian Flood version in which the Latins have been around just as long as everyone else, the question becomes whether these Latins had so much influence on the shores of the Aegean Sea that the Greek settlers of Asia would have adopted their language for the names of Greek deities in the 13th century BC. Not impossible, but unlikely, and as far as the logic of the story goes, simply not how things were.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Dardanos, His Descendants and Their Religion**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is, however, a Roman tradition about the foundation of Troy which would disagree with what I just said. But let's start with the Greek version of *that* story. On the island of Samothrake, Elektra, one of the seven Pleiades, bore Zeus a son named Dardanos, who grew up in Arkadia in Greece, where he married a local princess named Khryse. It was during Dardanos' lifetime that Zeus sought to annihilate the human race in Deukalion's Flood. Dardanos escaped the deluge with most of his family, fleeing to his birthplace of Samothrake. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Robert Graves' book *The Greek Myths*, Khryse was a priestess of the &quot;Great Deities,&quot; whose images and other paraphernalia she brought with her from Arkadia to Samothrake, where, together with her husband, she introduced the cult of these gods. The two of them decided, however, to keep the names of the gods a sacred secret, thus creating or continuing the practice of *Mysteria* (Mysteries) in their honour. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While on Samothrake, Dardanos' brother and wife died and he decided to move to Asia, where he took the cult, sacra and *mysteria* of the otherwise unknown Great Gods with him. The Samothrakian cult in question is thought to have been in honour of gods called the Kabeiroi, whose rites were indeed so secretive that even ancient writers (e.g. Strabo) are wildly unclear as to who exactly they were, speculating that they might be the same as the Korybantes, the Kouretes, or the Daktyloi, who themselves are only slightly less mysterious, and none of whose epithets seem to be from the Greek language. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At any rate, Dardanos built a town, called Dardania, on the slopes of Mt Ida, establishing there at least some aspects of the religion he and his wife had imported from Arkadia to Samothrake. In Asia one divinity who was associated with Dardanos' and Khryse's Great Deities is Kybele (or Kybebe), who in Phrygia was known by the title &quot;Mother of the Gods.&quot; Because the Titaness Rhea was the mother of about half of the Twelve Olympians (and grandmother of just about all the rest of them), she thus came to be identified with Kybele, who otherwise does not really have a Greek equivalent. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One image, or a set of images, in particular, supposedly representing the goddess Athena, became an important feature of Dardanos' new settlement. The image or images were called the *palladia* (or was only a singular *palladion*), which have/has several conflicting traditions regarding their/its origin. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dardanos had a grandson named Tros. After him the whole region came to be called Troas. Tros had a son named Ilos who built a city in the neighbourhood of Dardania. He named the city after himself Ilion (which in Latin becomes *Ilium*), from which we get the word *Iliad*. But Tros had been so famous that his son's city popularly came be known as Troy while &quot;Ilion&quot; remained as its more poetic title. Ilos brought into his new city the palladion/palladia of his great-grandfather, making it/them a main feature of the city, linked to the preservation of the kingdom. If it/they was/were lost, Troy would fall. Ilos' grandson Priamos would be the city's last king.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The whole point here appears to be that there was an aspect of Trojan religion which was unique and known only to the Trojans (and perhaps Samothrakians too), with gods whose names almost nobody knew, and whose cult is supposed to have been preserved by Tros's descendants the Romans. Between them and the Phrygian Kybele, these may be gods whose names might have been neither Greek nor Roman (even in the narrative world), and if there was something like a Trojan language (whether in the narrative or IRL) then these may have been uniquely Trojan deities with Trojan names.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Certain aspects of Trojan culture are portrayed as distinctively Phrygian, such as the conical Phrygian cap worn by Prince Paris of Troy, and even by his (in)famous Greek lover/abductee Helen.  &#xD;&#xA;[![Helen Phrygian cap][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;It would make sense if the Trojans spoke Phrygian, in which language we know the name of at least one god: Dios, the sky-deity whose name corresponds remarkably well to &quot;Zeus,&quot; as noted by Herbert Jennings Rose in *A Handbook of Greek Mythology*. Perhaps the Trojans worshipped Phrygian deities (whose names generally translated easily into Greek?). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, back to the Roman tradition that I mentioned earlier: The Italian version of Dardanos is not an Arkadian or Samothrakian but an Etruscan, who migrated from Italy to Phrygia, where he then founded Dardania. He had a brother who moved to Samothrake. When they were parting ways, they divided between them their *Penates*, family's household gods. The idea here seems to be that Dardanos, originally an Italian, went with his *Penates* to the place where Troy was founded and his descendant Aeneas eventually brought them back &quot;home&quot; again to Italy. The point here is that thus the Trojans would not have been Greeks (like Dionysios of Halikarnassos insists that they were) but Italians, and hence would have used Etruscan names for the gods. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Roman mythology, Latinus' father is most commonly identified as the god Faunus, who does not have a neatly direct Greek equivalent. The Trojans who encountered him, then, logically would have had to use the Roman/Latin/Italian name for this deity unless, as was the case in later mythography, they identified Faunus with the Greek Pan and called him by *that* Greek name.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Aeneid* there is another Roman god with no Greek equivalent, namely Tiberinus, the personification of the River Tiber. Trojans who knew about him, upon their entry into the region, would also have used his Italian name (unless they simply Hellenised it into Tiberinos).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**IRL**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In &quot;real life&quot; there does seem to have been a great city on the site that Homer and Virgil call Troy. Its real name, the language its people spoke and what their religion was, all seem to be unknown. It would seem that there was something like a Trojan War thereat, or several wars. The Wikipedia article on [the Trojan language](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_language)&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; summarises this information really well, mentioning the theory proposed by Calvert Watkins that the language of the city was [Luwian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luwian_language). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Hittite connections made herein imply that the religion and deities of Troy were related to those of the Hittites. There are some very striking parallels between the Hittite [*Kingship in Heaven* myth](https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sitchin/guerradioses/guerradioses05a.htm) and the Greek theogonic story of the conflict between the sky-god Ouranos and his sons the Titans, followed by the Titanomachy. The differences, on the other hand, however, are jarring. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Trojan language article also mentions that the Trojans' allies in the *Iliad* speak different languages although there is no indication that the Trojans themselves have any trouble communicating with the besieging Greek army.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; However, this may merely be evidence that a fictional convention&#xD;&#xA;&gt; frequently used in narratives in later times had already been adopted&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by the poet of the *Iliad*: for example, Jason finds no language barrier&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with Medea in Colchis, and Trojan Aeneas converses without difficulty&#xD;&#xA;&gt; both with Punic Dido and with Latin Turnus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Unique Symmetry of Greek and Roman Parallels**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To make things even more colourful, in ancient times (long after Homer, however), the *Iliad* was translated into Latin. In the Latin version everyone (whether Greek or Trojan) uses the Roman names of the gods, and the Roman names of every other character and place too. It appears that there may also have been ancient translations of the *Aeneid* into Greek, wherein the reverse process would have occurred, all those Italians in Virgil's narrative referring to the gods (and everything else) by their *Greek* names. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the most remarkable and most salient features of ancient Roman religion and mythology is the extent to which they directly copied, virtually wholesale, the stories and characters from Greek religion and myth in order to adapt them to the language and culture of the Romans. No other culture seems to have done this on the scale that the Romans did, except perhaps for their Etruscan ancestors, from whom the Romans may have acquired this cultural borrowing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Unparalleled Translation and Interpretation Issues**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the Romans had their own version for the name of every single Greek deity, many of them distinctly Latin, like Zeus becoming Iuppiter; and others more obviously copy+pasted, like Apollon becoming Apollo, and Okeanos becoming Oceanus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As an illustration of how unique this makes the Romans, notice how we, writing in English, cannot perform the same sort of interpretation or translation of these deities into English or even Anglo-Saxon versions. Granted that that is because, for the most part, we don't know enough about the deities of the Angles and Saxons to do that. But say we tried to do this with, for instance, Norse gods as described in the Eddas. It might make for quirky new renditions of the *Iliad* and the *Aeneid* that would seem a touch on the absurd side and probably wouldn't make much sense of the original material. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Iliad*, we could make the mother of Achilles (whatever his name would be in Old Norse) into Dúfa, one of the nine daughters of the giant sea-god Ægir. Out of the nine, Dúfa's name is the closest I could (arbitrarily) get to the Greco-Roman *Thetis*, which is the actual name of Achilles' mother in the original myths. Thetis' father *is* indeed a giant sea-god named Nereus, and that's basically where the parallel ends, since Nereus has fifty daughters, not just nine, and he lives in the Mediterranean Sea rather than on an island in northern Europe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Aeneid*, Aeneas (Old Norse equivalent file not found) could become the son of the goddess Freyja, which perhaps would be less discrepant than the identification of Dúfa with Thetis. Both Venus (Aeneas' actual mother in the *Aeneid*) are associated with birds, and both drive chariots drawn by animals not usually used for such a job, but Freyja's association with sorcery is much more intense than any link that Venus might have with the practice thereof.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The point is that even we in English use either the Greek or the Roman versions of the names of these characters. And between the two versions, they are so interchangeable that we could have an English translation of the *Iliad* with Roman names or of the *Aeneid* with Greek names without at all impeding the narratives.         &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1. *Brought to my attention courtesy of Spencer, a fellow Mythology StackExchange user.*&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/vr4R2.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15277" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4594" RevisionGUID="3a869616-d951-49c6-b48a-d84faac626f5" CreationDate="2018-03-24T22:51:08.083" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="deleted 12 characters in body" Text="The egg is an ancient symbol of rebirth. [Decorated ostrich eggs have been found in Africa that are around 60,000 years old][1]; representations of ostrich eggs were crafted in gold and silver in [ancient Sumeria, Egypt and the Mediterranean][2]; and eggs have been decorated to mark [the Iranian new year, Nowruz][3] - the rebirth of the year at the time of the spring equinox - for thousands of years. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Already used as a container in North Africa before the Bronze Age, the ostrich egg was best known in the Late Bronze Age Aegean world as a [rhyton][4]. This was an often highly decorated vessel which might sometimes have been used in religious ceremonies; ex­amples of ostrich egg rhyta are known from mainland Greece, the Aegean islands, and Cyprus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The specific Christian tradition of decorating eggs at Easter time started among **early Christians in Mesopotamia, some time before the [First Council of Nicaea][5] in 325 CE**. Easter Sunday comes shortly after the end of [Lent][6], a period of fasting during which the consumption of eggs is forbidden. Once the Lenten fast is over, it is allowed to eat them again.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first decorated Easter eggs were dyed red to represent the blood that Jesus shed at his crucifixion. This custom connected with legend concerning **Mary Magdalene**. According to one legend, she brought a basket of cooked eggs to share with other woman at Jesus's tomb, and when she saw the risen Christ they turned red. In another, after Christ has ascended Mary Magdalene went to the Roman emperor and greeted him with the words &quot;[Christ has risen][7]&quot;. The emperor pointed to an egg on his table and said &quot;Christ has no more risen than that egg is red&quot;, upon which the egg straightaway turned blood red. &quot;Christ has risen&quot;, or &quot;The Lord has risen&quot;, is known in Eastern churches and some Protestant churches as the Paschal greeting or Easter Acclamation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Red is still the main colour used to dye eggs at Easter among many [Orthodox Christians][8]. In Greece, the first red-dyed egg is sometimes placed in the home where the icons are positioned, in order to ward off evil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Chocolate Easter eggs][9] date to 1873, when the [J S Fry chocolate company][10], based in Bristol, England, first marketed them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][11]][11]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][12]][12]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][13]][13]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2010/03/01/an-60000-year-old-artistic-movement-recorded-in-ostrich-egg-shells/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.penn.museum/sites/expedition/ostrich-eggs/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nowruz&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhyton&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lent&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paschal_greeting&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_egg#Chocolate_eggs&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._S._Fry_%26_Sons&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/o3Zok.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/uFqOR.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/K3fux.gif" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15278" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4602" RevisionGUID="e6711b04-daef-4885-8021-357537e3b12e" CreationDate="2018-03-25T01:20:51.643" UserId="1241" Text="Where does the Easter egg tradition come from?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It comes from three different sources: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Jewish heritage &#xD;&#xA;- Christian tradition&#xD;&#xA;- Pagan culture (possibly?)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But how did eggs come to be associated with Easter?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Despite claims being made that Easter Eggs were originally pagan symbols, there is no solid evidence for this. It was not until the 18th Century that Jakob Grimm theorized a putative pagan connection to Easter Eggs with a goddess of his own whom he named Ostara, a suggested German version of Eostre.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; At the [Passover Seder][1], a hard-boiled egg dipped in salt water symbolizes both new life and the Passover sacrifice offered at the Temple in Jerusalem. The ancient Persians painted eggs for Nowrooz, their New Year celebration falling on the Spring Equinox. This tradition has continued every year on Nowrooz since ancient times.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Christian times, the egg was a symbol of new life just as a chick might hatch from the egg. The Easter egg tradition may have celebrated the end of the privations of Lent. In the Medieval Europe, eggs were forbidden during Lent as well as other traditional fast days. During the strict Lenten fast of forty days no eggs were eaten. It was traditional to use up all of the household's eggs before Lent began, which established the tradition of Pancake Day. This was because, in Christian times, the egg was a symbol of new life just as a chick might hatch from the egg. Eggs were viewed as symbols of new life and fertility through the ages. It is believed that for this reason many ancient cultures, including the Ancient Egyptians, Persians, and Romans, used eggs during their spring festivals. In Eastern Christianity, both meat and dairy are still prohibited during the fast, and eggs are seen as &quot;dairy&quot; (a foodstuff that could be taken from an animal without shedding its blood). That is the reason why eggs laid during that time were often boiled or otherwise preserved. - [The Origin of the Easter Egg][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many legends surrounding St. Mary Magdalene and the origins of the Easter Egg. However there are really only two that most make allusion to.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Traditions regarding the Easter Egg and St. Mary Magdalene:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For centuries, it has been the custom of many Christians to share dyed and painted eggs, particularly on Easter Sunday. The eggs represent new life, and Christ bursting forth from the tomb. Among Eastern Orthodox Christians this sharing is accompanied by the proclamation &quot;Christ is Risen!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; One tradition concerning Mary Magdalene says that following the death and resurrection of Jesus, she used her position to gain an invitation to a banquet given by the Roman Emperor Tiberius. When she met him, she held a plain egg in her hand and exclaimed, &quot;Christ is risen!&quot; The Emperor laughed, and said that Christ rising from the dead was as likely as the egg in her hand turning red while she held it. Before he finished speaking, the egg in her hand turned a bright red and she continued proclaiming the Gospel to the entire imperial house.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Another version of this story can be found in popular belief, mostly in Greece. It is believed that after the Crucifixion, Mary Magdalene and the Virgin Mary put a basket full of eggs at the foot of the cross. There, the eggs were painted red by the blood of the Christ. Then, Mary Magdalene brought them to Tiberius Caesar. - [Mary Magdalene (Wikipedia)][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![St. Mary Magdalene][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[St. Mary Magdalene][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;During the Middle Ages, people began decorating eggs and eating them as a treat following mass on Easter Sunday after fasting through Lent. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Easter Eggs. Bucharest][6]][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Easter Eggs. Bucharest][7]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Some claim that the Easter egg has pagan roots. Before Christians celebrated the resurrection of Jesus, some argue ancient pagans in Europe observed the Spring Equinox as the return of the sun God -- a rebirth of light and an emergence from the lean winter. Some also point to the Venerable Bede, an English monk who wrote the first history of Christianity in England, for evidence of this connection. Bede argued that even the word Easter derived from a pagan fertility goddess named &quot;Eostre&quot; in English and Germanic cultures. Scholars have since noted that there is little to no evidence of such a goddess outside of Bede's writings. Also, in most other languages the word for Easter -- Pascua in Spanish and Pasques in French, for instance -- derives from the Greek and Latin Pascha or Pasch, for Passover. - [Easter Eggs: History, Origin, Symbolism And Traditions][8] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover_Seder&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://blogs.christianpost.com/the-pastors-eye/the-origin-of-the-easter-egg-9142/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Magdalene&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/HyLGa.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://liturgy.co.nz/a-second-hymn-for-st-mary-magdalene&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/RTpm1.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://04varvara.wordpress.com/2011/05/10/a-photo-essay-a-point-of-unity-holy-week-and-easter-as-seen-by-russian-eyes/#jp-carousel-283&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/easter-eggs-history-origin-symbolism-tradition_n_1392054" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15279" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4603" RevisionGUID="5d3e2845-ff68-440e-b373-f50c57f44388" CreationDate="2018-03-25T01:46:10.277" UserId="4902" Text="Try &quot;Goetia&quot; instead of &quot;Goethia&quot;.  Roughly, it means the art of summoning angels, whether fallen or still elevated (though more commonly the former).  The *Ars Goetia* is the first section of *The Lesser Key of Solomon*.  Basically, it lists the demons (with various titles of nobility and royalty) supposedly captured and bound by Solomon.  Crowley and another Golden Dawn member published another version of it with stuff from other sources.  (Amazing what suddenly comes to mind that you read about 30 years ago).  Wikipedia seems to have information at &lt;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goetia&gt; and &lt;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_demons_in_the_Ars_Goetia&gt;, and I'm sure elsewhere as well if you follow links from there." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15280" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2967" RevisionGUID="f4eb305a-4d85-456a-9206-45c4b28a19d5" CreationDate="2018-03-25T07:16:49.110" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="15281" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4602" RevisionGUID="8c336584-f6ca-4464-8fcd-43cbe5b247fc" CreationDate="2018-03-25T11:51:01.390" UserId="1241" Comment="added 1726 characters in body" Text="Where does the Easter egg tradition come from?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It comes from three different sources: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Jewish heritage &#xD;&#xA;- Christian tradition&#xD;&#xA;- Pagan culture (possibly?)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But how did eggs come to be associated with Easter?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Despite claims being made that Easter Eggs were originally pagan symbols, there is no solid evidence for this. It was not until the 18th Century that Jakob Grimm theorized a putative pagan connection to Easter Eggs with a goddess of his own whom he named Ostara, a suggested German version of Eostre.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; At the [Passover Seder][1], a hard-boiled egg dipped in salt water symbolizes both new life and the Passover sacrifice offered at the Temple in Jerusalem. The ancient Persians painted eggs for Nowrooz, their New Year celebration falling on the Spring Equinox. This tradition has continued every year on Nowrooz since ancient times.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Christian times, the egg was a symbol of new life just as a chick might hatch from the egg. The Easter egg tradition may have celebrated the end of the privations of Lent. In the Medieval Europe, eggs were forbidden during Lent as well as other traditional fast days. During the strict Lenten fast of forty days no eggs were eaten. It was traditional to use up all of the household's eggs before Lent began, which established the tradition of Pancake Day. This was because, in Christian times, the egg was a symbol of new life just as a chick might hatch from the egg. Eggs were viewed as symbols of new life and fertility through the ages. It is believed that for this reason many ancient cultures, including the Ancient Egyptians, Persians, and Romans, used eggs during their spring festivals. In Eastern Christianity, both meat and dairy are still prohibited during the fast, and eggs are seen as &quot;dairy&quot; (a foodstuff that could be taken from an animal without shedding its blood). That is the reason why eggs laid during that time were often boiled or otherwise preserved. - [The Origin of the Easter Egg][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many legends surrounding St. Mary Magdalene and the origins of the Easter Egg. However there are really only two that most make allusion to.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Traditions regarding the Easter Egg and St. Mary Magdalene:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For centuries, it has been the custom of many Christians to share dyed and painted eggs, particularly on Easter Sunday. The eggs represent new life, and Christ bursting forth from the tomb. Among Eastern Orthodox Christians this sharing is accompanied by the proclamation &quot;Christ is Risen!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; One tradition concerning Mary Magdalene says that following the death and resurrection of Jesus, she used her position to gain an invitation to a banquet given by the Roman Emperor Tiberius. When she met him, she held a plain egg in her hand and exclaimed, &quot;Christ is risen!&quot; The Emperor laughed, and said that Christ rising from the dead was as likely as the egg in her hand turning red while she held it. Before he finished speaking, the egg in her hand turned a bright red and she continued proclaiming the Gospel to the entire imperial house.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Another version of this story can be found in popular belief, mostly in Greece. It is believed that after the Crucifixion, Mary Magdalene and the Virgin Mary put a basket full of eggs at the foot of the cross. There, the eggs were painted red by the blood of the Christ. Then, Mary Magdalene brought them to Tiberius Caesar. - [Mary Magdalene (Wikipedia)][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![St. Mary Magdalene][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[St. Mary Magdalene][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;During the Middle Ages, people began decorating eggs and eating them as a treat following mass on Easter Sunday after fasting through Lent. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;The Christians of [the] region in Mesopotamia were probably the first to connect the decorating of eggs with the feast of the resurrection of Christ, and by the Middle Ages this practice was so widespread that in some places Easter Day was called Egg Sunday. In parts of Europe, the eggs were dyed red and were then cracked together when people exchanged Easter greetings. - [Welcome to the Church Year: An Introduction to the Seasons of the Episcopal Church.][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Easter Eggs. Bucharest][7]][7]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Easter Eggs. Bucharest][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Some claim that the Easter egg has pagan roots. Before Christians celebrated the resurrection of Jesus, some argue ancient pagans in Europe observed the Spring Equinox as the return of the sun God -- a rebirth of light and an emergence from the lean winter. Some also point to the Venerable Bede, an English monk who wrote the first history of Christianity in England, for evidence of this connection. Bede argued that even the word Easter derived from a pagan fertility goddess named &quot;Eostre&quot; in English and Germanic cultures. Scholars have since noted that there is little to no evidence of such a goddess outside of Bede's writings. Also, in most other languages the word for Easter -- Pascua in Spanish and Pasques in French, for instance -- derives from the Greek and Latin Pascha or Pasch, for Passover. - [Easter Eggs: History, Origin, Symbolism And Traditions][9] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Catholic Encyclopedia][10] alludes to the possibility that the Easter Egg may have had a pagan origin, but falls short of confirming such a theory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Because the use of eggs was forbidden during Lent, they were brought to the table on Easter Day, coloured red to symbolize the Easter joy. This custom is found not only in the Latin but also in the Oriental Churches. The symbolic meaning of a new creation of mankind by Jesus risen from the dead was probably an invention of later times. The custom may have its origin in paganism, for a great many pagan customs, celebrating the return of spring, gravitated to Easter. The egg is the emblem of the germinating life of early spring. Easter eggs, the children are told, come from Rome with the bells which on Thursday go to Rome and return Saturday morning. The sponsors in some countries give Easter eggs to their god-children. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover_Seder&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://blogs.christianpost.com/the-pastors-eye/the-origin-of-the-easter-egg-9142/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Magdalene&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/HyLGa.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://liturgy.co.nz/a-second-hymn-for-st-mary-magdalene&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://books.google.ca/books?id=CRvzTM0kev4C&amp;pg=PA96&amp;dq=In%20many%20countries%20the%20name%20of%20the%20Christian%20feast%20we%20call%20Easter&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=7ruAT-WLE6jo0QH6tdSLCA&amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;q=In%20many%20countries%20the%20name%20of%20the%20Christian%20feast%20we%20call%20Easter&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/RTpm1.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://04varvara.wordpress.com/2011/05/10/a-photo-essay-a-point-of-unity-holy-week-and-easter-as-seen-by-russian-eyes/#jp-carousel-283&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/easter-eggs-history-origin-symbolism-tradition_n_1392054&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05224d.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15282" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1255" RevisionGUID="d81809d7-b72f-417f-9afb-b86a9b02c2e6" CreationDate="2018-03-25T16:10:27.117" UserId="4271" Comment="added tag" Text="As I was researching Isles of the Blest, I came across something very confusing. According to [Maicar][1]...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Rather, after three lifetimes, the souls of the good are conveyed to the Island of the Blest, ruled by Cronos and Rhea:&#xD;&#xA;    &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;With these wreaths and garlands of flowers they entwine their hands according to the righteous counsels of Rhadamanthys, whom the great father, the husband of Rhea whose throne is above all others, keeps close beside him as his partner.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It wouldn't make sense for the Titan lord who tried to destroy the gods to rule over &#xD;&#xA;&gt;...an easy existence:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;But having the sun always in equal nights and equal days, the good receive a life free from toil, not scraping with the strength of their arms the earth, nor the water of the sea, for the sake of a poor sustenance. But in the presence of the honored gods, those who gladly kept their oaths enjoy a life without tears, while the others undergo a toil that is unbearable to look at.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can someone explain why Cronos would rule over that place? He's dead right?&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.maicar.com/GML/IslesBlest.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15283" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1255" RevisionGUID="d81809d7-b72f-417f-9afb-b86a9b02c2e6" CreationDate="2018-03-25T16:10:27.117" UserId="4271" Comment="added tag" Text="Why were the Isles of the Blest ruled over by Cronos and Rhea?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15284" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1255" RevisionGUID="d81809d7-b72f-417f-9afb-b86a9b02c2e6" CreationDate="2018-03-25T16:10:27.117" UserId="4271" Comment="added tag" Text="|greek|afterlife|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15285" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4604" RevisionGUID="8e90aa59-45a1-4610-98dc-c9c781ea9a9b" CreationDate="2018-03-25T16:29:58.297" UserId="4271" Text="The Isles of the Blessed, also called the Fortunate Isles, was a place heroes went if they successfully were allowed entrance to Elysium, or the Elysian Fields, three times (the Greek believed in reincarnation).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Elysian Fields is a place in the afterlife where heroes who performed great deeds went after death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there someone mentioned by name in Greek Mythology who is said to have gone to the Isles of the Blessed?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15286" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4604" RevisionGUID="8e90aa59-45a1-4610-98dc-c9c781ea9a9b" CreationDate="2018-03-25T16:29:58.297" UserId="4271" Text="Did anyone make it to the Isles of the Blessed?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15287" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4604" RevisionGUID="8e90aa59-45a1-4610-98dc-c9c781ea9a9b" CreationDate="2018-03-25T16:29:58.297" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|afterlife|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15288" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4605" RevisionGUID="777b3e42-46f9-443d-b963-d2cca67de252" CreationDate="2018-03-25T16:58:29.390" UserId="4271" Text="Asclepius was a son of Apollo and the mortal princess Coronis. Chiron, the centaur, and Apollo's father's half-brother, nurtured his talent for the art of medicine, eventually surpassing himself (Chiron) and his (Asclepius) father (Apollo).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On day, the demigod found a way to bring back the dead. He only did it once, for he was killed by Zeus. A chain reaction of events later, Zeus brings back Asclepius as a full god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When you look up Pan, it says he and Asclepius are the only gods to have died. Asclepius was a demigod when he died. Why do people include Asclepius as gods who died? Is it because he was later resurrected as one? If this is the case, shouldn't Heracles be included?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15289" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4605" RevisionGUID="777b3e42-46f9-443d-b963-d2cca67de252" CreationDate="2018-03-25T16:58:29.390" UserId="4271" Text="Why is Asclepius said to have been a god when he was killed?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15290" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4605" RevisionGUID="777b3e42-46f9-443d-b963-d2cca67de252" CreationDate="2018-03-25T16:58:29.390" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|apollo|demi-gods|pan|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15291" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4606" RevisionGUID="dd2ef44d-1b07-4b49-884c-60d081dbf4a2" CreationDate="2018-03-25T17:20:06.767" UserId="4271" Text="Getting rid of the Stymphalian Birds is Heracles's sixth labor. The Stymphalian Birds are man-eating birds with beaks of bronze, sharp metallic feathers they could launch at their victims, and poisonous dung. Their beak could pierce any armor, except that made out of cork. Heracles completed his labor with a rattle called a [krotala/krotalon/crotalum (κρόταλον)][1]. The rattle scared the birds and Heracles shot as many as he could with his poison arrows.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The closest thing I found in the way of parentage was the birds being pets of Artemis or Ares. Who/What parented the Stymphalian birds? Was it Echidna?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crotalum" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15292" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4606" RevisionGUID="dd2ef44d-1b07-4b49-884c-60d081dbf4a2" CreationDate="2018-03-25T17:20:06.767" UserId="4271" Text="Who/What parented the Stymphalian birds?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15293" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4606" RevisionGUID="dd2ef44d-1b07-4b49-884c-60d081dbf4a2" CreationDate="2018-03-25T17:20:06.767" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|hercules|monsters|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
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  <row Id="15336" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4628" RevisionGUID="b28d21aa-9cdd-45c6-987b-f21f1fe74638" CreationDate="2018-03-25T18:25:54.647" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15337" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4628" RevisionGUID="b28d21aa-9cdd-45c6-987b-f21f1fe74638" CreationDate="2018-03-25T18:25:54.647" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15338" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4602" RevisionGUID="51abf2bf-99bf-4b25-ae47-4cf17c70261a" CreationDate="2018-03-25T21:17:58.957" UserId="1241" Comment="added 8 characters in body" Text="**Where does the Easter egg tradition come from?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It comes from three different sources: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Jewish heritage &#xD;&#xA;- Christian tradition&#xD;&#xA;- Pagan culture (possibly?)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**But how did eggs come to be associated with Easter?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Despite claims being made that Easter Eggs were originally pagan symbols, there is no solid evidence for this. It was not until the 18th Century that Jakob Grimm theorized a putative pagan connection to Easter Eggs with a goddess of his own whom he named Ostara, a suggested German version of Eostre.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; At the [Passover Seder][1], a hard-boiled egg dipped in salt water symbolizes both new life and the Passover sacrifice offered at the Temple in Jerusalem. The ancient Persians painted eggs for Nowrooz, their New Year celebration falling on the Spring Equinox. This tradition has continued every year on Nowrooz since ancient times.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Christian times, the egg was a symbol of new life just as a chick might hatch from the egg. The Easter egg tradition may have celebrated the end of the privations of Lent. In the Medieval Europe, eggs were forbidden during Lent as well as other traditional fast days. During the strict Lenten fast of forty days no eggs were eaten. It was traditional to use up all of the household's eggs before Lent began, which established the tradition of Pancake Day. This was because, in Christian times, the egg was a symbol of new life just as a chick might hatch from the egg. Eggs were viewed as symbols of new life and fertility through the ages. It is believed that for this reason many ancient cultures, including the Ancient Egyptians, Persians, and Romans, used eggs during their spring festivals. In Eastern Christianity, both meat and dairy are still prohibited during the fast, and eggs are seen as &quot;dairy&quot; (a foodstuff that could be taken from an animal without shedding its blood). That is the reason why eggs laid during that time were often boiled or otherwise preserved. - [The Origin of the Easter Egg][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many legends surrounding St. Mary Magdalene and the origins of the Easter Egg. However there are really only two that most make allusion to.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Traditions regarding the Easter Egg and St. Mary Magdalene:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For centuries, it has been the custom of many Christians to share dyed and painted eggs, particularly on Easter Sunday. The eggs represent new life, and Christ bursting forth from the tomb. Among Eastern Orthodox Christians this sharing is accompanied by the proclamation &quot;Christ is Risen!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; One tradition concerning Mary Magdalene says that following the death and resurrection of Jesus, she used her position to gain an invitation to a banquet given by the Roman Emperor Tiberius. When she met him, she held a plain egg in her hand and exclaimed, &quot;Christ is risen!&quot; The Emperor laughed, and said that Christ rising from the dead was as likely as the egg in her hand turning red while she held it. Before he finished speaking, the egg in her hand turned a bright red and she continued proclaiming the Gospel to the entire imperial house.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Another version of this story can be found in popular belief, mostly in Greece. It is believed that after the Crucifixion, Mary Magdalene and the Virgin Mary put a basket full of eggs at the foot of the cross. There, the eggs were painted red by the blood of the Christ. Then, Mary Magdalene brought them to Tiberius Caesar. - [Mary Magdalene (Wikipedia)][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![St. Mary Magdalene][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[St. Mary Magdalene][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;During the Middle Ages, people began decorating eggs and eating them as a treat following mass on Easter Sunday after fasting through Lent. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;The Christians of [the] region in Mesopotamia were probably the first to connect the decorating of eggs with the feast of the resurrection of Christ, and by the Middle Ages this practice was so widespread that in some places Easter Day was called Egg Sunday. In parts of Europe, the eggs were dyed red and were then cracked together when people exchanged Easter greetings. - [Welcome to the Church Year: An Introduction to the Seasons of the Episcopal Church.][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Easter Eggs. Bucharest][7]][7]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Easter Eggs. Bucharest][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Some claim that the Easter egg has pagan roots. Before Christians celebrated the resurrection of Jesus, some argue ancient pagans in Europe observed the Spring Equinox as the return of the sun God -- a rebirth of light and an emergence from the lean winter. Some also point to the Venerable Bede, an English monk who wrote the first history of Christianity in England, for evidence of this connection. Bede argued that even the word Easter derived from a pagan fertility goddess named &quot;Eostre&quot; in English and Germanic cultures. Scholars have since noted that there is little to no evidence of such a goddess outside of Bede's writings. Also, in most other languages the word for Easter -- Pascua in Spanish and Pasques in French, for instance -- derives from the Greek and Latin Pascha or Pasch, for Passover. - [Easter Eggs: History, Origin, Symbolism And Traditions][9] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Catholic Encyclopedia][10] alludes to the possibility that the Easter Egg may have had a pagan origin, but falls short of confirming such a theory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Because the use of eggs was forbidden during Lent, they were brought to the table on Easter Day, coloured red to symbolize the Easter joy. This custom is found not only in the Latin but also in the Oriental Churches. The symbolic meaning of a new creation of mankind by Jesus risen from the dead was probably an invention of later times. The custom may have its origin in paganism, for a great many pagan customs, celebrating the return of spring, gravitated to Easter. The egg is the emblem of the germinating life of early spring. Easter eggs, the children are told, come from Rome with the bells which on Thursday go to Rome and return Saturday morning. The sponsors in some countries give Easter eggs to their god-children. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover_Seder&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://blogs.christianpost.com/the-pastors-eye/the-origin-of-the-easter-egg-9142/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Magdalene&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/HyLGa.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://liturgy.co.nz/a-second-hymn-for-st-mary-magdalene&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://books.google.ca/books?id=CRvzTM0kev4C&amp;pg=PA96&amp;dq=In%20many%20countries%20the%20name%20of%20the%20Christian%20feast%20we%20call%20Easter&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=7ruAT-WLE6jo0QH6tdSLCA&amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;q=In%20many%20countries%20the%20name%20of%20the%20Christian%20feast%20we%20call%20Easter&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/RTpm1.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://04varvara.wordpress.com/2011/05/10/a-photo-essay-a-point-of-unity-holy-week-and-easter-as-seen-by-russian-eyes/#jp-carousel-283&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/easter-eggs-history-origin-symbolism-tradition_n_1392054&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05224d.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15339" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4602" RevisionGUID="d8ca4193-b77a-475c-a83f-4f0af57f727b" CreationDate="2018-03-25T22:46:25.587" UserId="1241" Comment="added 512 characters in body" Text="**Where does the Easter egg tradition come from?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It comes from three different sources: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Jewish heritage &#xD;&#xA;- Christian tradition&#xD;&#xA;- Pagan culture (possibly?)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**But how did eggs come to be associated with Easter?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Despite claims being made that Easter Eggs were originally pagan symbols, there is no solid evidence for this. It was not until the 18th Century that Jakob Grimm theorized a putative pagan connection to Easter Eggs with a goddess of his own whom he named Ostara, a suggested German version of Eostre.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; At the [Passover Seder][1], a hard-boiled egg dipped in salt water symbolizes both new life and the Passover sacrifice offered at the Temple in Jerusalem. The ancient Persians painted eggs for Nowrooz, their New Year celebration falling on the Spring Equinox. This tradition has continued every year on Nowrooz since ancient times.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Christian times, the egg was a symbol of new life just as a chick might hatch from the egg. The Easter egg tradition may have celebrated the end of the privations of Lent. In the Medieval Europe, eggs were forbidden during Lent as well as other traditional fast days. During the strict Lenten fast of forty days no eggs were eaten. It was traditional to use up all of the household's eggs before Lent began, which established the tradition of Pancake Day. This was because, in Christian times, the egg was a symbol of new life just as a chick might hatch from the egg. Eggs were viewed as symbols of new life and fertility through the ages. It is believed that for this reason many ancient cultures, including the Ancient Egyptians, Persians, and Romans, used eggs during their spring festivals. In Eastern Christianity, both meat and dairy are still prohibited during the fast, and eggs are seen as &quot;dairy&quot; (a foodstuff that could be taken from an animal without shedding its blood). That is the reason why eggs laid during that time were often boiled or otherwise preserved. - [The Origin of the Easter Egg][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many legends surrounding St. Mary Magdalene and the origins of the Easter Egg. However there are really only two that most make allusion to.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Traditions regarding the Easter Egg and St. Mary Magdalene:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For centuries, it has been the custom of many Christians to share dyed and painted eggs, particularly on Easter Sunday. The eggs represent new life, and Christ bursting forth from the tomb. Among Eastern Orthodox Christians this sharing is accompanied by the proclamation &quot;Christ is Risen!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; One tradition concerning Mary Magdalene says that following the death and resurrection of Jesus, she used her position to gain an invitation to a banquet given by the Roman Emperor Tiberius. When she met him, she held a plain egg in her hand and exclaimed, &quot;Christ is risen!&quot; The Emperor laughed, and said that Christ rising from the dead was as likely as the egg in her hand turning red while she held it. Before he finished speaking, the egg in her hand turned a bright red and she continued proclaiming the Gospel to the entire imperial house.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Another version of this story can be found in popular belief, mostly in Greece. It is believed that after the Crucifixion, Mary Magdalene and the Virgin Mary put a basket full of eggs at the foot of the cross. There, the eggs were painted red by the blood of the Christ. Then, Mary Magdalene brought them to Tiberius Caesar. - [Mary Magdalene (Wikipedia)][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![St. Mary Magdalene][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[St. Mary Magdalene][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;During the Middle Ages, people began decorating eggs and eating them as a treat following mass on Easter Sunday after fasting through Lent. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;The Christians of [the] region in Mesopotamia were probably the first to connect the decorating of eggs with the feast of the resurrection of Christ, and by the Middle Ages this practice was so widespread that in some places Easter Day was called Egg Sunday. In parts of Europe, the eggs were dyed red and were then cracked together when people exchanged Easter greetings. - [Welcome to the Church Year: An Introduction to the Seasons of the Episcopal Church.][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Easter Eggs. Bucharest][7]][7]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Easter Eggs. Bucharest][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Some claim that the Easter egg has pagan roots. Before Christians celebrated the resurrection of Jesus, some argue ancient pagans in Europe observed the Spring Equinox as the return of the sun God -- a rebirth of light and an emergence from the lean winter. Some also point to the Venerable Bede, an English monk who wrote the first history of Christianity in England, for evidence of this connection. Bede argued that even the word Easter derived from a pagan fertility goddess named &quot;Eostre&quot; in English and Germanic cultures. Scholars have since noted that there is little to no evidence of such a goddess outside of Bede's writings. Also, in most other languages the word for Easter -- Pascua in Spanish and Pasques in French, for instance -- derives from the Greek and Latin Pascha or Pasch, for Passover. - [Easter Eggs: History, Origin, Symbolism And Traditions][9] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Catholic Encyclopedia][10] alludes to the possibility that the Easter Egg may have had a pagan origin, but falls short of confirming such a theory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Because the use of eggs was forbidden during Lent, they were brought to the table on Easter Day, coloured red to symbolize the Easter joy. This custom is found not only in the Latin but also in the Oriental Churches. The symbolic meaning of a new creation of mankind by Jesus risen from the dead was probably an invention of later times. The custom may have its origin in paganism, for a great many pagan customs, celebrating the return of spring, gravitated to Easter. The egg is the emblem of the germinating life of early spring. Easter eggs, the children are told, come from Rome with the bells which on Thursday go to Rome and return Saturday morning. The sponsors in some countries give Easter eggs to their god-children. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The egg is a symbol of hope in the resurrection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The egg is a wonderful symbol of birth and rebirth, an apparently lifeless object out of which comes life. Because of this, it is a symbol of Christ's Resurrection and is seen most often at Easter. **In 2006, a necropolis under the Vatican revealed an infant who'd been buried holding an egg to symbolize his parents' hope in his resurrection, because of Christ's Resurrection.** - [Christian Symbols][11]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover_Seder&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://blogs.christianpost.com/the-pastors-eye/the-origin-of-the-easter-egg-9142/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Magdalene&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/HyLGa.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://liturgy.co.nz/a-second-hymn-for-st-mary-magdalene&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://books.google.ca/books?id=CRvzTM0kev4C&amp;pg=PA96&amp;dq=In%20many%20countries%20the%20name%20of%20the%20Christian%20feast%20we%20call%20Easter&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=7ruAT-WLE6jo0QH6tdSLCA&amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;q=In%20many%20countries%20the%20name%20of%20the%20Christian%20feast%20we%20call%20Easter&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/RTpm1.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://04varvara.wordpress.com/2011/05/10/a-photo-essay-a-point-of-unity-holy-week-and-easter-as-seen-by-russian-eyes/#jp-carousel-283&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/easter-eggs-history-origin-symbolism-tradition_n_1392054&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05224d.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://www.fisheaters.com/symbols.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15340" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4614" RevisionGUID="a6c632c9-96d3-41af-b5a1-b68496df0a5f" CreationDate="2018-03-25T23:00:17.880" UserId="4271" Comment="added 142 characters in body" Text="Questions pertaining to spirits from multiple cultures and mythologies. Most popularly seen tormented souls that went to hell in Christianity." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15341" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4614" RevisionGUID="a6c632c9-96d3-41af-b5a1-b68496df0a5f" CreationDate="2018-03-25T23:00:17.880" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by -1 edit id of 1592" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15342" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4614" RevisionGUID="72d03add-7358-4938-91b4-2b9ce3fb7990" CreationDate="2018-03-25T23:00:17.880" UserId="292" Comment="added 3 characters in body" Text="Questions pertaining to spirits from multiple cultures and mythologies. Most popularly seen as tormented souls that went to hell in Christianity." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15343" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4622" RevisionGUID="446f6be8-20c0-4abf-b688-ef9bcf179f53" CreationDate="2018-03-25T23:00:27.700" UserId="4271" Comment="added 110 characters in body" Text="A term refering to a point at which a crucial decision must be made that will have far-reaching consequences. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
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  <row Id="15346" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4608" RevisionGUID="a0c289ff-c75d-403b-96b2-26c69bd1b396" CreationDate="2018-03-26T03:03:59.680" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 292, 108 edit id of 1588" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
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  <row Id="15356" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4539" RevisionGUID="57b71811-c0ce-437b-8797-5abd7ad597da" CreationDate="2018-03-26T03:20:51.793" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body" Text="Questions on the mythical race of female warriors appearing in Greek mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15357" PostHistoryTypeId="8" PostId="3496" RevisionGUID="52213257-1ccb-42b4-935b-361f7c1ed33c" CreationDate="2018-03-26T03:21:24.307" UserId="108" Comment="Rollback to [09d48124-afb3-4f0a-9566-5ba2c16104a7] - Edit approval overridden by post owner or moderator" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15358" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3493" RevisionGUID="b13e6b1e-a5af-4d4f-95b7-37e63ed81368" CreationDate="2018-03-26T03:23:43.717" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 16 characters in body" Text="For questions on the periodisation used in Graeco-Roman mythology, which includes the Golden Age, the Silver Age, the Bronze Age, the Heroic age, and the Iron Age in which we are currently living." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15359" PostHistoryTypeId="8" PostId="3483" RevisionGUID="e0e6a72f-2c47-4ba5-a242-c2ea9caaded4" CreationDate="2018-03-26T03:24:47.507" UserId="108" Comment="Rollback to [0dcd5758-db98-4749-8616-750bcaa9ca55] - Edit approval overridden by post owner or moderator" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15360" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3483" RevisionGUID="4fc98902-b8e3-4bf5-adfa-c6ce3cdf7f5c" CreationDate="2018-03-26T03:26:01.857" UserId="108" Comment="added 139 characters in body" Text="Questions pertaining to the mythical object, usually interpreted as a shield, that appears in Greek mythology as carried by Athena or Zeus." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15361" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4629" RevisionGUID="5a4d0180-c954-46d5-bf71-01f7caa0bec6" CreationDate="2018-03-26T05:31:11.200" UserId="2682" Text="The only ancient text which mentions the parents of the Stymphalian birds makes it sound like these killer avians were Arkadian [Arcadian] princesses.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A *scholion* on Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautika* 2.1054 preserves a statement made by the writer Mnaseas of Patrae. As with other things that Mnaseas has to say, it isn't quite the interpretation you might expect. William Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology summarises the information from that *Argonautika* scholion by saying that according to Mnaseas, the Stymphalides, as these monsters are also called, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were not birds, but women, and daughters of Stymphalus and Ornis, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were killed by Heracles because they did not receive him hospitably.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles [Heracles] was especially peeved about this because the Stymphalides had offered similar hospitality to Eurytos [Eurytus] and Kteatos [Cteatus], the twin army-generals of King Augeias of the Epeians of Elis. Eurytos and Kteatos are typically known as the Molionidai [Molionidae or Molionids], are sometimes described as gigantic or monstrous, and, being stronger than Herakles, they were the only men he was never able to defeat in battle. Herakles eventually bested them by cheating: he waylaid them during a sacred ceasefire, thus managing to kill them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pausanias' opinion about the birds, laced with some slightly jingoistic ethnicism, and expressed in Book 8 of his *Description of Greece*, is that perhaps the Stymphalides are merely naturally occurring animals, simply like any other bird type, these ones in particular having migrated into Greece from &quot;the Arabian desert&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Whether the modern Arabian birds with the same name as the old&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Arkadian birds are also of the same breed, I do not know.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But if there have been from all time Stymphalian birds, just as there&#xD;&#xA;&gt; have been hawks and eagles, I should call these birds of Arabian&#xD;&#xA;&gt; origin, and a section of them might have flown on some occasion to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Arkadia [Arcadia] and reached Stymphalos [Stymphalus]. Originally they would be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; called by the Arabians, not Stymphalian, but by another name. But the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fame of Herakles [Heracles], and the superiority of the Greek over the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; foreigner, has resulted in the birds of the Arabian desert being&#xD;&#xA;&gt; called Stymphalian even in modern times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also some enigmatic information from the temple of Artemis Stymphalia (Artemis of Stymphalos) which makes the Stymphalides sound like Harpies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Stymphalos there is also an old sanctuary of Artemis Stymphalia...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Near the roof of the temple have been carved, among other things, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Stymphalian birds... There are here also maidens of white marble, with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the legs of birds, and they stand behind the temple.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The place being called Stymphalos here is a town in Arkadia which was named after King Stymphalos of Arkadia, who reigned in the time of Herakles' great-grandfather Pelops. The lake which was inhabited by the monstrous birds in question was in or near Stymphalos Town. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;King Stymphalos, who was killed by Pelops, was a son of Arkas [Arcas], the son of Zeus from whom Arkadia received its name. Stymphalos's cousin Aleos [Aleus], who had reigned in conjunction with him, was still alive in Herakles' time (Herakles consorted with a daughter of Aleos and participated together with Aleos' sons in the Argonautic expedition).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ornis is an interestingly mysterious character. She does not appear to be the mother of Stymphalos's other children, who are all apparently regular humans. Her name simply means &quot;Bird.&quot; Perhaps she is some sort of part-bird monster nymph like the Seirenes [Sirens]. She is otherwise completely unknown.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus' *Bibliotheka* tell us that King Stymphalos had a daughter named Parthenope, who bore Herakles a son called Everes. Incidentally, in Strabo and Lycophron, Parthenope is the name of one of the Seirenes, probably unrelated to the Arkadian princess, but all the same a curious coincidence (I think) considering the bird-legged ladies at the Artemis temple in Stymphalos. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15362" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4629" RevisionGUID="0c01e64d-3188-4d40-836e-6458125f5fda" CreationDate="2018-03-26T05:46:39.940" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected a detail" Text="The only ancient text which mentions the parents of the Stymphalian birds makes it sound like these killer avians were Arkadian [Arcadian] princesses.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A *scholion* on Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautika* 2.1054 preserves a statement made by the writer Mnaseas of Patrae. As with other things that Mnaseas has to say, it isn't quite the interpretation you might expect. William Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology summarises the information from that *Argonautika* scholion by saying that according to Mnaseas, the Stymphalides, as these monsters are also called, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were not birds, but women, and daughters of Stymphalus and Ornis, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were killed by Heracles because they did not receive him hospitably.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles [Heracles] was especially peeved about this because the Stymphalides had offered similar hospitality to Eurytos [Eurytus] and Kteatos [Cteatus], the twin army-generals of King Augeias of the Epeians of Elis. Eurytos and Kteatos are typically known as the Molionidai [Molionidae or Molionids], are sometimes described as gigantic or monstrous, and, being stronger than Herakles, they were the only men he was never able to defeat in battle. Herakles eventually bested them by cheating: he waylaid them during a sacred ceasefire, thus managing to kill them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pausanias' opinion about the birds, laced with some slightly jingoistic ethnicism, and expressed in Book 8 of his *Description of Greece*, is that perhaps the Stymphalides are merely naturally occurring animals, simply like any other bird type, these ones in particular having migrated into Greece from &quot;the Arabian desert&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Whether the modern Arabian birds with the same name as the old&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Arkadian birds are also of the same breed, I do not know.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But if there have been from all time Stymphalian birds, just as there&#xD;&#xA;&gt; have been hawks and eagles, I should call these birds of Arabian&#xD;&#xA;&gt; origin, and a section of them might have flown on some occasion to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Arkadia [Arcadia] and reached Stymphalos [Stymphalus]. Originally they would be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; called by the Arabians, not Stymphalian, but by another name. But the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fame of Herakles [Heracles], and the superiority of the Greek over the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; foreigner, has resulted in the birds of the Arabian desert being&#xD;&#xA;&gt; called Stymphalian even in modern times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also some enigmatic information from the temple of Artemis Stymphalia (Artemis of Stymphalos) which makes the Stymphalides sound like Harpies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Stymphalos there is also an old sanctuary of Artemis Stymphalia...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Near the roof of the temple have been carved, among other things, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Stymphalian birds... There are here also maidens of white marble, with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the legs of birds, and they stand behind the temple.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The place being called Stymphalos here is a town in Arkadia which was named after King Stymphalos of Arkadia, who reigned in the time of Herakles' great-grandfather Pelops. The lake which was inhabited by the monstrous birds in question was in or near Stymphalos Town. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;King Stymphalos, who was killed by Pelops, was a grandson of Arkas [Arcas], the son of Zeus from whom Arkadia received its name. Stymphalos's cousin Aleos [Aleus], who had reigned in conjunction with him, was still alive in Herakles' time (Herakles consorted with a daughter of Aleos and participated together with Aleos' sons in the Argonautic expedition).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ornis is an interestingly mysterious character. She does not appear to be the mother of Stymphalos's other children, who are all apparently regular humans. Her name simply means &quot;Bird.&quot; Perhaps she is some sort of part-bird monster nymph like the Seirenes [Sirens]. She is otherwise completely unknown.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus' *Bibliotheka* tell us that King Stymphalos had a daughter named Parthenope, who bore Herakles a son called Everes. Incidentally, in Strabo and Lycophron, Parthenope is the name of one of the Seirenes, probably unrelated to the Arkadian princess, but all the same a curious coincidence (I think) considering the bird-legged ladies at the Artemis temple in Stymphalos. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15363" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4630" RevisionGUID="76f84849-fd82-4035-96a1-cd5c04346f71" CreationDate="2018-03-26T07:06:28.470" UserId="2682" Text="Yes, there are several specifically named characters in this role.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aaron Atsma's website The Theoi Project has a page thereon entitled [**Elysion**](http://www.theoi.com/Kosmos/Elysion.html) [Elysium], detailing the geography (or, actually, different geographies according to the variety of writers from diverse periods in ancient Greek mythography) and citizenship of the Mythic Realm (he has a whole series of pages on the different &quot;Mythic Realms&quot; of Greek cosmology) in question. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the most mysterious characters of the mythology is a certain **Lykos** [Lycus]. He was the son of Poseidon by Kelaino [Celaeno], one of the seven Pleiades. The only other thing that we know about him is what Apollodorus tells us when he says in the *Bibliotheka* that Lykos' own father &quot;Poseidon settled&quot; him &quot;in the Islands of the Blessed.&quot; It makes it sounds as though Lykos was still alive when this happened but the reference is brief and tantalisingly vague, mentioning nothing about any heroic adventures or anything else to warrant this special treatment. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(My only guess is that Lykos' parentage is quite similar to that of Hermes, who is rewarded for his extraordinary feat of thievery on the day of his birth by being made into an Olympian god. Lykos is Hermes' cousin both on his father's and mother's sides of the family, Hermes being the son of Zeus by another Pleiad. Other than that there's the probably unhelpful detail that Lykos means &quot;Wolf,&quot; which need not mean that there was actually anything particularly wolfish or wolf-like about the dude himself. The Roman writer Hyginus later confuses this Lykos with the brother of King Nykteus [Nycteus] of Thebes.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Epitome*, Apollodorus tells us that after his death in the Trojan War, **Akhilleus** [Achilles] was married to the immortal Colchian princess witch **Medeia** [Medea]. In Book 4 of Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautika*, while Akhilleus is still a baby but Medeia is having her adventures with Iason [Jason] and the rest of the Argonauts, Hera prophesies to Akhilleus' mother Thetis that this union will eventually take place.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A writer called Ptolemy Hephaestion, whose collection of alternate myths contains some fascinating story versions and anecdotes, says, however, that on the Islands of the Blessed, Akhilleus was united to **Helen**, the most beautiful woman who had caused the Trojan War. They even had a son there on the islands. This child of theirs was called Euphorion, named &quot;after the fertility of this land&quot;, and he had wings!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are other characters listed by Atsma as having become inhabitants of the Blessed Islands:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Kadmos [Cadmus] and Harmonia&#xD;&#xA; - Rhadamanthys; and Alkmene [Alcmene] the mother of Herakles [Heracles]&#xD;&#xA; - Orpheus and Eurydike [Eurydice]&#xD;&#xA; - Akhilleus' cousin Aias [Ajax], Akhilleus' son Neoptolemos, and&#xD;&#xA;   Akhilleus' relative Patroklos [Patroclus]&#xD;&#xA; - Aias son of Oileus&#xD;&#xA; - Odysseus' wife Penelope, and their son Telemakhos [Telemachus]&#xD;&#xA; - Antilokhos [Antilochus] son of Nestor&#xD;&#xA; - Diomedes, Iphigeneia, Memnon and Menelaus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Atsma says that his &quot;list is far from exhaustive--any hero who possessed a hero-cult in ancient Greece was presumed to be transferred to Elysion.&quot; The &quot;Elysion&quot; page, typically, has a plethora of quotes from various ancient authors, including Homer, Hesiod, Pindar, Euripides, Aeschylus, Strabo, Diodorus Siculus, etc, as well as several Romans. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See the linked page for more detail." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15364" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4603" RevisionGUID="6b6068e3-f748-4428-98d8-98b3998f696c" CreationDate="2018-03-26T11:12:25.843" UserId="57" Comment="added 61 characters in body" Text="Try &quot;Goetia&quot; instead of &quot;Goethia&quot;. Roughly, it means the art of summoning angels, whether fallen or still elevated (though more commonly the former). The *Ars Goetia* is the first section of [*The Lesser Key of Solomon*][1]. Basically, it lists the demons (with various titles of nobility and royalty) supposedly captured and bound by Solomon. Crowley and another Golden Dawn member published another version of it with stuff from other sources.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; Wikipedia seems to have information at [*Goetia*][2] and [*List of demons in the Ars Goetia*][3], and I'm sure elsewhere as well if you follow links from there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesser_Key_of_Solomon&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goetia&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_demons_in_the_Ars_Goetia" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15365" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4600" RevisionGUID="56a69dd2-8452-4c3e-a49a-480e55c24e9c" CreationDate="2018-03-26T11:15:55.943" UserId="57" Comment="There's little reason to repeat &quot;Greek goddess of Wisdom and Warfare&quot; four times in your question. " Text="In the end of Book VI of the Odyssey, Odysseus sends up a pray to Athena, the Greek goddess of Wisdom and Warfare. It then says Athena does not openly acknowledge him. The reason being that she feared Poseidon's wrath.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [316] So saying, she smote the mules with the shining whip, and they quickly left the streams of the river. Well did they trot, well did they ply their ambling feet, and she drove with care that the maidens and Odysseus might follow on foot, and with judgment did she ply the lash. Then the sun set, and they came to the glorious grove, sacred to Athena. There Odysseus sat him down, and straightway prayed to the daughter of great Zeus: “Hear me, child of aegis-bearing Zeus, unwearied one. Hearken now to my prayer, since aforetime thou didst not hearken when I was smitten, what time the glorious Earth-shaker smote me. Grant that I may come to the Phaeacians as one to be welcomed and to be pitied.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [328] So he spoke in prayer, and Pallas Athena heard him; but she did not yet appear to him face to face, for she feared her father's brother; but he furiously raged against godlike Odysseus, until at length he reached his own land.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Retrieved from [here][1], on: 3/23/2018&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why would Athena fear Poseidon? Isn't Athena stronger than Poseidon?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/HomerOdyssey6.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15366" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4600" RevisionGUID="56a69dd2-8452-4c3e-a49a-480e55c24e9c" CreationDate="2018-03-26T11:15:55.943" UserId="57" Comment="There's little reason to repeat &quot;Greek goddess of Wisdom and Warfare&quot; four times in your question. " Text="Why would Athena fear Poseidon?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15369" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4605" RevisionGUID="8ac01d13-23e7-4445-bce7-eca89b34274f" CreationDate="2018-03-26T11:39:18.260" UserId="57" Comment="Removed confused &quot;Apollo's father's half-brother&quot; sentence (which implied Chiron was the half-brother of Zeus), and the unnecessary parentheses. " Text="Asclepius was a son of Apollo and the mortal princess Coronis. Chiron, the centaur, nurtured his talent for the art of medicine, eventually surpassing himself and his father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One day, the demigod found a way to bring back the dead. He only did it once, for he was killed by Zeus. A chain reaction of events later, Zeus brings back Asclepius as a full god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When you look up Pan, it says he and Asclepius are the only gods to have died. Asclepius was a demigod when he died. Why do people include Asclepius as gods who died? Is it because he was later resurrected as one? If this is the case, shouldn't Heracles be included?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15370" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4631" RevisionGUID="e1035aaa-d494-4264-a5cf-852245e4bbbe" CreationDate="2018-03-26T23:47:53.580" UserId="4271" Text="Chiron is a half-brother to Hestia, Hades, Poseidon, Hera and Demeter. He is the son of Cronus and Philyra, an Oceanid. But, when was this consummation made? Before, after or during Cronus and Rhea were parenting the next generation of gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15371" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4631" RevisionGUID="e1035aaa-d494-4264-a5cf-852245e4bbbe" CreationDate="2018-03-26T23:47:53.580" UserId="4271" Text="Is Chiron older or younger then the Olympians?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15372" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4631" RevisionGUID="e1035aaa-d494-4264-a5cf-852245e4bbbe" CreationDate="2018-03-26T23:47:53.580" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|titans|olympians|hestia|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15373" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4632" RevisionGUID="6800f066-b5a4-476f-96fe-c6ca278366ae" CreationDate="2018-03-27T03:45:30.333" UserId="4852" Text="The Völuspá, from my understanding, is where it mentions the aftermath of Ragnarök.  In it, they talk of the chess game where they find golden pieces of the &quot;dead&quot; gods and then use them to play a game of chess.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where did Snoori get this idea of Chess, and why did he think they would be playing a chess game after Ragnarok?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm asking this because the game of chess seems to be introduced rather late in Europe, maybe a century or so after eddas?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I just find this a bit confusing.  To me, it seems a little out of context.  Or could the chess game be a different game, similar to chess, that we don't have a translation for?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15374" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4632" RevisionGUID="6800f066-b5a4-476f-96fe-c6ca278366ae" CreationDate="2018-03-27T03:45:30.333" UserId="4852" Text="Confusion regarding the telling of a chess game in the Völuspá (Ragnarök aftermath)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15375" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4632" RevisionGUID="6800f066-b5a4-476f-96fe-c6ca278366ae" CreationDate="2018-03-27T03:45:30.333" UserId="4852" Text="|norse|ragnarok|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15376" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4633" RevisionGUID="829bb19a-faa1-4fca-9dd7-c8f7e1c96c34" CreationDate="2018-03-27T04:01:04.057" UserId="2682" Text="Younger, but not by much. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Chiron was conceived when Zeus was still a baby, and while Cronus was hunting his youngest son by Rhea. Cronus and Rhea were still living together as husband and wife during Cronus's clandestine union with Philyra. (Some interpretations I have read have it such that it was against Philyra's will.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There was an island in the Black Sea which Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautica* tells us was named Philyra, after this Oceanid. During their voyage the Argonauts sailed to this island,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; where Cronus, son of Uranus, during the time in Olympus that he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reigned over the Titans, and Zeus was yet being nurtured in a Cretan&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cave by the Curetes of Ida, lay beside Philyra, when he had deceived&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Rhea; and the goddess found them in the midst of their dalliance; and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cronus leaped up from the couch with a rush in the form of a stallion&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with flowing mane, but Oceanus's daughter, Philyra, in shame left the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; spot and those haunts, and came to the long Pelasgian ridges, where by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her union with the transfigured deity she brought forth huge Cheiron&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Chiron], half like a horse, half like a god.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*Book 2, Lines 1231-1241*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Roman writer Hyginus corroborates Apollonius' account with his own:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As Saturnus [= Cronus] was combing the earth looking for Jupiter [=&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zeus], he came to Thrace, turned himself into a horse, and lay with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Philyra daughter of Oceanus. By him she bore Chiron the Centaur, who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is said to have invented the art of healing. After Philyra saw that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; she had borne a strange species, never before seen, she asked Jupiter&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to change her into some other form. She was transformed into the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *philyra* tree, that is, a linden tree.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*Fabulae* 138&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Greek mythology, however, Philyra lived with her son Chiron in his cave on Mt Pelion in Thessaly, together with Chiron's wife Chariclo, who was also one of her sisters, an Oceanid. According to Pindar's Pythian Ode, Chiron's daughters dwelt in the same residence as well." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15377" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4634" RevisionGUID="2c75c8b9-cf2b-400f-b1ca-46fb3da39f09" CreationDate="2018-03-27T06:51:36.347" UserId="666" Text="It's most certainly your translation that is a bit free.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the original, the passage you are referring to talks about &quot;gullnar tǫflur&quot;, 'golden tables' (stanza 58 in *Codex Regius*, 54 in *Hauksbok*; this line is the same in both, despite some other minor variations in the stanza). These are likely the same tables that are mentioned in stanza 8, where the idyllic life of the Aesir in the new creation is outlined.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While Chess seems to have reached Europe from the Middle east during the Viking age, and the Vikings are recorded as having direct contact with the Muslim world, there is a better candidate in a set of games the Norse played, known as *[Tafl][1]* or *Hnefatafl*, another two-player strategic game without any luck component. It could also be some other game that we do not know as much about.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, while Snorri would almost certainly have known about chess, he had nothing to do with writing the *Völuspá*; his *Edda* is an instruction book in poetry and mythology, which sometimes quotes from older works. *Völuspá* is such an older work, included in the medieval compilations that later were standardised and given the same title that Snorri had used for his work.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;[Here][2] is Sophus Bugges edition of the *Völuspá*, containing parallel text from three different sources. [Blackwell's translation from 1906][3], from project Gutenberg, might be dated, but one can see that he uses &quot;tables&quot; as the translation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tafl_games&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://etext.old.no/Bugge/voluspa/voluspa6.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14726/14726-h/14726-h.htm#VOLUSPA_THE_VALAS_PROPHECY" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15378" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4635" RevisionGUID="2f4786fc-b051-43ed-aa03-c8df5c97d0f6" CreationDate="2018-03-27T07:09:08.947" UserId="4525" Text="Many magical items greek gods have are very powerful. But sometimes they hand them out like its Christmas.&#xA;&#xA;**So how powerful are greek gods?**&#xA;&#xA; Could for examle Zeus still control weather without his lighnings? Were the items just a weak reflection of god power and modern fantasy gives them too much power?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15379" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4635" RevisionGUID="2f4786fc-b051-43ed-aa03-c8df5c97d0f6" CreationDate="2018-03-27T07:09:08.947" UserId="4525" Text="How powerful were Greek gods without their items?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15380" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4635" RevisionGUID="2f4786fc-b051-43ed-aa03-c8df5c97d0f6" CreationDate="2018-03-27T07:09:08.947" UserId="4525" Text="|greek|god-items|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15381" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4632" RevisionGUID="6bf3bfe7-9570-400f-91b7-2231bfb64245" CreationDate="2018-03-27T07:38:08.433" UserId="108" Comment="edited body" Text="The Völuspá, from my understanding, is where it mentions the aftermath of Ragnarök.  In it, they talk of the chess game where they find golden pieces of the &quot;dead&quot; gods and then use them to play a game of chess.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where did Snorri get this idea of Chess, and why did he think they would be playing a chess game after Ragnarok?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm asking this because the game of chess seems to be introduced rather late in Europe, maybe a century or so after eddas?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I just find this a bit confusing.  To me, it seems a little out of context.  Or could the chess game be a different game, similar to chess, that we don't have a translation for?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15382" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4605" RevisionGUID="7903804a-4060-4473-aed4-60ea47575846" CreationDate="2018-03-27T08:00:05.890" UserId="57" Comment="added 271 characters in body" Text="Asclepius was a son of Apollo and the mortal princess Coronis. Chiron, the centaur, nurtured his talent for the art of medicine, eventually surpassing himself and his father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One day, the demigod found a way to bring back the dead. He only did it once, for he was killed by Zeus. A chain reaction of events later, Zeus brings back Asclepius as a full god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Wikipedia article on Pan][1] says he and Asclepius are the only gods to have died:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to the Greek historian Plutarch (in De defectu oraculorum, &quot;The Obsolescence of Oracles&quot;), Pan is the only Greek god (other than Asclepius) who actually dies. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Asclepius was a demigod when he died. Why do people include Asclepius as gods who died? Is it because he was later resurrected as one? If this is the case, shouldn't Heracles be included?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_(god)#%22The_Great_God_Pan_is_dead%22" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15383" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4635" RevisionGUID="be8e6d01-0a38-40f5-a815-a4b241bef43b" CreationDate="2018-03-27T20:19:37.340" UserId="4271" Comment="correct spelling, add punctuation" Text="Many magical items Greek gods have are very powerful. But sometimes they hand them out like its Christmas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**So how powerful are greek gods?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Could, for example, Zeus still control weather without his lightning bolts? Were the items just a weak reflection of god power and modern fantasy gives them too much power?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15384" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4636" RevisionGUID="8832ed2f-6e48-4c4a-9566-6db1d60dda2c" CreationDate="2018-03-27T20:52:43.470" UserId="4271" Text="In Albanian Mythology, Dreg is mentioned to be the dragon proper. But, I can't find anything else about him. Save for the fact that Christianity demonized him and turned his name into one of the Albanian names for the Devil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What do we know about the dragon proper?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15385" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4636" RevisionGUID="8832ed2f-6e48-4c4a-9566-6db1d60dda2c" CreationDate="2018-03-27T20:52:43.470" UserId="4271" Text="What do we know about Dreg the dragon proper?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15386" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4636" RevisionGUID="8832ed2f-6e48-4c4a-9566-6db1d60dda2c" CreationDate="2018-03-27T20:52:43.470" UserId="4271" Text="|dragons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15388" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4637" RevisionGUID="38842ec1-52e6-440b-a6f6-22576eb8152e" CreationDate="2018-03-28T00:40:05.267" UserId="3741" Text="As yannis pointed out in the comments, Athena cannot be considered stronger than Poseidon, and you're assuming too much here. Poseidon is one of the most powerful gods, along with his brothers Zeus and Hades. Athena is, don't get me wrong, very powerful, but not in the way Poseidon is. The Greeks knew this, as well.&#xA;&#xA;First of all:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; in some versions of the story, he, like his brother Zeus, did not share the fate of his other brother and sisters who were eaten by Cronus. He was saved by his mother Rhea, who concealed him among a flock of lambs and pretended to have given birth to a colt, which she gave to Cronus to devour.&#xA;&#xA;This version of the Greek creation myth shows that people wanted others to know that Poseidon was incredibly powerful. This is also shown in the fact that, although he was not the patron god of Athens, he was worshipped a huge amount, and in many other Greek cities, he was the most worshipped god, and the center of attention.&#xA;&#xA;You must also never forget that Poseidon controls the domain of the sea. He is in control of all of the world's oceans, and can do as he pleases with them. When Odysseus enraged him, he sent huge storms to punish him. When he was fighting the war on the giants, he crushed Polybotes with an island.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Polybotes was pursued through the sea by Poseidon until he reached Kos. There Poseidon ripped off part of the island called Nisyros and threw it at him.&#xA;&#xA;And let us not forget that after losing the competition to become the patron god of Athens, he was enraged at Athena.&#xA;&#xA;Why would Athena be scared of Poseidon? Because she knew that he was second only to Zeus in power, and the fact that he held a grudge against her didn't help.&#xA;&#xA;Sources: &#xA;&#xA;https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poseidon&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;Pseudo-Appollodorus, Bibliotheca 1 (translated by Aldrich)&#xA;Found here:&#xA;http://www.theoi.com/Gigante/GigantePolybotes.html&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15389" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4638" RevisionGUID="0bf6c7bb-bf6e-4fd3-961a-a445aef01364" CreationDate="2018-03-28T01:42:29.180" UserId="4271" Text="Adonis is a Greek hunter who caught the eye of Aphrodite. One day, he was out hunting and wounded a boar. The animal was in so much pain, it killed Adonis. Adonis died, but was allowed to leave the Underworld for part of the year to see Aphrodite. The annual return of Adonis to Aphrodite symbolized the return of fertility.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why would Hades allow Adonis to leave the Underworld?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15390" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4638" RevisionGUID="0bf6c7bb-bf6e-4fd3-961a-a445aef01364" CreationDate="2018-03-28T01:42:29.180" UserId="4271" Text="Why was Adonis allowed to leave the Underworld?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15391" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4638" RevisionGUID="0bf6c7bb-bf6e-4fd3-961a-a445aef01364" CreationDate="2018-03-28T01:42:29.180" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|underworld|aphrodite|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15393" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4640" RevisionGUID="9fb7970e-f0b7-4e63-9a65-d38ca2f015ac" CreationDate="2018-03-28T02:13:54.150" UserId="4271" Text="Poseidon's wife is Amphitrite. Some say she is a Nereid, others say an Oceanid. When Poseidon first pursued her for marriage, she fled. Later the dolphin god, Delphin, persuaded her to marry the sea god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beroe, nymph of Beirut (capital and largest city of Lebanon). Both Dionysus and Poseidon wooed her and she ended up marring Poseidon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How/why does Poseidon have two wives? When did he get two wives in Mythology? Was this a mistranslation and Beroe is only an affair?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15394" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4640" RevisionGUID="9fb7970e-f0b7-4e63-9a65-d38ca2f015ac" CreationDate="2018-03-28T02:13:54.150" UserId="4271" Text="Poseidon has two wives when/why/how?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15395" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4640" RevisionGUID="9fb7970e-f0b7-4e63-9a65-d38ca2f015ac" CreationDate="2018-03-28T02:13:54.150" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|myth-identification|mythohistory|poseidon|nymphs|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15398" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4641" RevisionGUID="13c436fa-fe65-4f11-a891-dc6ed769aeb1" CreationDate="2018-03-28T15:37:24.943" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="A shaggy dog story is a lengthy anecdote that induces an expectation of a surprising, amusing or otherwise memorable conclusion but which ends instead with a punchline that is utterly mundane or even irrelevant to what has just been narrated.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Were there any such stories before they got that name, whenever that might have been?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15399" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4641" RevisionGUID="13c436fa-fe65-4f11-a891-dc6ed769aeb1" CreationDate="2018-03-28T15:37:24.943" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="Were shaggy dog stories known before they got that name?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15400" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4641" RevisionGUID="13c436fa-fe65-4f11-a891-dc6ed769aeb1" CreationDate="2018-03-28T15:37:24.943" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15402" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4581" RevisionGUID="9cd9a40e-b455-4e06-b0d8-8888b60f3da6" CreationDate="2018-03-28T16:15:32.143" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="Improved style; in particular, removed pejorative characterisation &quot;this random person&quot;" Text="I asked a previous question about Abraxas [here][1], briefly talking about what he is and asking how the number 365 relates to him in so many ways.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A few days later, I was talking to someone who happened to look at my computer as I was researching. We had a conversation on what I had found out about him (her, by some sources). After I said my piece, she said Abraxas was also a prince of Hell. I've been trying to connect him since, but haven't found anything related or worth mentioning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where can I find information about Abraxas being a prince of Hell?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/3352/what-are-the-365-virtues" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15405" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4643" RevisionGUID="8ea4ed03-52c9-4bb7-978d-fdb491f86524" CreationDate="2018-03-28T21:37:43.713" UserId="2682" Text="In the [DC Comics version of Greco-Roman mythology](http://wonder-woman.wikia.com/wiki/Ares) there are indeed plenty of stories which pit Ares against the Amazons and those which ally these women with Zeus. There are also some of these comicbook stories in which antagonism occurs between Zeus and the Amazons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In ancient mythography, however, it does not seem that the Amazons are ever even mentioned alongside Zeus in the same sentence. As for Ares, there are two quite indirect references that serve as a possibility but which I would say still add up to a “No” as well. These are both from the story of Theseus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The War Against Attika** [Attica]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story of Theseus’ interaction with the Amazons has it that at some point after he became king of Attika, Theseus participated in an expedition to the land of the Amazons either as his own project or as part of the ninth *athlos* (labour) of Herakles which required that the girdle of the Amazon queen Hippolyta be brought to Argolis. While he was there Theseus abducted either the queen herself or, as is more commonly reported, the queen’s sister Antiope (in one version of the story these two women’s names are swapped around too).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Taking the royal Amazon family member back to Attika with him, Theseus married her and she bore him a son. Some years afterwards Hippolyta (or whatever the Amazon queen’s name was) came to Attika with her entire army and besieged Theseus’ kingdom for three months in a bid to retrieve her sister therefrom. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Theseus’ wife fought by his side against her own sister and people and was run through with a spear by the Amazon Molpadia when Molpadia found out that Antiope wanted to stay with her husband. Molpadia was then killed and the Amazons eventually lost the war, their queen retreating with her remaining forces to Megara and dying there in grief while nursing the mortal wounds she had sustained.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After Theseus’ death there was a festival the Athenians celebrated in his honour, called the Theseia. Prior to its celebration, however, the Athenians always performed a sacrifice in honour of the fallen Amazons. The place by the Areiopagos, the &quot;Crag/Hill of Ares,&quot; at which the warrior women had made their camp was named the Amazonion [Amazonium], and the citadel and lofty towers which the women had built upon it rivalled those at Theseus' palace.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his *Life of Theseus*, Plutarch says that an oracle had instructed Theseus to offer a sacrifice to Phobos, the *daimon* son of Ares who personified fear, especially the fear which leads to retreat from the battlefield.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Pausanias’ *Description of Greece*, at the city of Troizenos [Troezen], there was, on the way down to the harbour, a place called Kelenderis. A particular spot here had been named Genethlion, “Birthplace,” because it is where Theseus was born. Also on this spot Theseus had waged war against the Amazons during their attack upon his domain. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Before this place [Genethlion] is a temple of Ares, for here also did&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Theseus conquer the Amazons in battle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pausanias does not explicitly say that it is the case, but Florence Mary Bennett, in her book *Religious Cults Associated with the Amazons* (p. 58), interprets this to mean that Theseus is the one who built the Ares temple at Genethlion to commemorate his victory over these women.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The implication here is that Ares favoured Theseus over the Amazons. That, however, need not be the case.  After all, the Amazons’ enemies the Athenians themselves performed religious ceremonies in honour of the Amazons that they themselves had killed. Granted that the Athenians were notorious down into later times for being hyper-religious, trying to be careful to honour every deity and divinity that they came across, so much so that it would be remarked in the Roman period that it was easier to find a god (i.e. an idol) than a man in Athens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;During the trial of Orestes on the Athenian Areipoagos in Aeschylus’ *Eumenides*, the goddess Athena points out to the court the fact that the Amazons performed sacrifice to Ares on this very spot during their siege of Attika a generation prior to this. That the women's sacrifices did not avail them of victory might strengthen the notion that Ares was in some way against the Amazons in this instance. It is, however, a glaring phenomenon in the mythology that Ares, even when he himself participates in wars personally (maybe *especially* when he does), is really not good at winning them, in spite of his immense size! In his most famous altercations, those against Herakles and Diomedes, he is so painfully wounded by these mortals that he must flee from the battlefield to seek medical attention among his fellow gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An additional consideration to be made regarding the war between Theseus and the Amazons is that one of Ares’ daughters, Theseus’ wife (typically Antiope, although Plutarch notes that Cleidemus names her Hippolyta, who nonetheless by all accounts is also Ares’ offspring), is fighting on the side of the Athenians. If we are to understand Theseus’ religious activity in connection with this conflict (the sacrifice to Phobos and the construction of the Genethlion shrine to Ares) as an indication of Ares’ displaying disfavour towards the Amazons, it could conversely be interpreted that the one Amazon who is fighting against her own people might be the one who has her father’s favour in this case.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Harmony**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The characterisation of the DC Amazons as a society of peace-loving yet formidable warriors can be rendered as an unintentional exploration of the other side of this nation’s origin in the ancient myths. Admittedly this theory is based entirely on the etymology of one character’s name, which is by no means overtly consequential in any story. As your *Argonautika* quote says, the first Amazons were the daughters of Ares by an obscure nymph named Harmonia in the “Wood of Akmon”, which I find to be a most tantalising reference indeed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;DC Comics and the 2017 *Wonder Woman* movie may have ended up inadvertently exploring the maternal origins of the Amazons in a deeper way than the ancient Greek and Roman writers. It’s as if someone had asked these questions: What if the name of the Amazons’ mother Harmonia, “Harmony,” is an indication that she is a personification of peace and tranquillity just as much as Ares personifies senseless violence and *en masse* belligerence? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And if so, what if the Amazons had taken after their mother rather than their father? This line of theory breaks down eventually because in the DC lore Ares is *not* the Amazons’ father. But it points to an interesting thought which could conceivably have stronger roots in the original version of this mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The references in Plutarch and Pausanias, therefore, seem to be the closest one could get to a conflict between Ares and the Amazons, and, as stated before, I don’t think that they can be counted as such in any meaningful sense.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Other Deities**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond him siring the Amazons upon the nymph Harmonia, him siring a few more daughters upon Otrere and Oreithyia, and him giving Hippolyta her famous girdle, Ares really has no direct interaction with any Amazon in the ancient mythology, whether positive or negative. As a matter of fact the Amazons barely have contact with any deity in general. There are only two exceptions to this that I am aware of: Artemis and Dionysos [Dionysos]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Diodorus Siculus’ *Bibliotheka Historika*, the Amazons Kelaino [Celaeno], Eurybia and Phoibe [Phoebe] are said to have been hunting companions of Artemis. They were all killed fighting to defend their queendom when Herakles came to fetch Queen Hippolyta’s girdle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dionysos, during his tumultuous campaign around the world, made war on the Amazons. Pausanias says that some of them fled before him, ending up as suppliants at the temple of Artemis Ephesia (Artemis of Ephesos [Ephesus]), which a queen of theirs had previously built. As he was in the habit of doing, such as when he had conquered the Indians, he added some of his defeated foes to his retinue. “Those Thermodontian hordes” of “warrior women”, Seneca tell us, were turned into [Mainades](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maenad) [Maenades].     " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15406" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4599" RevisionGUID="387a5e4e-c3bc-4f7c-8ef3-dcfba1b5cb7a" CreationDate="2018-03-28T21:55:32.207" UserId="3491" Comment="edit translation to sound more natural. Would be nice if someone could TL the weird characters properly" Text="&quot;**Ostern**&quot; the **german** word for Easter actually has the same etymology as the english term (citing the German [wiki page][1]): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Das neuhochdeutsche Ostern und das englische Easter haben die gleiche&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sprachliche Wurzel, zu deren Etymologie es verschiedene Lösungsansätze&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gibt. Das Herkunftswörterbuch des Duden leitet das Wort vom&#xD;&#xA;&gt; altgermanischen Austrō &gt; Ausro „Morgenröte“ ab, das eventuell ein&#xD;&#xA;&gt; germanisches Frühlingsfest bezeichnete und sich im Altenglischen zu&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ēostre, Ēastre, im Althochdeutschen zu ōst(a)ra, Plural ōstarun&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fortbildete. Der Wortstamm ist mit dem altgriechischen Namen der&#xD;&#xA;&gt; vergöttlichten Morgenröte Ēōs und dem lateinischen aurora „Morgenröte“&#xD;&#xA;&gt; verwandt, die ihrerseits weitere Sprachen beeinflusst haben. Die&#xD;&#xA;&gt; zugrunde liegende indogermanische Wurzel ist das Substantiv *h₂au̯s-os&#xD;&#xA;&gt; „Morgenröte“, abgeleitet von einer indogermanischen Verbalwurzel&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *h₂u̯es- „(morgens) hell werden“[6] oder *h₂au̯s- „(aus dem Wasser) schöpfen, Feuer holen“.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One possible origin is the germanic word &quot;*Austrō*&quot;, related to and meaning **aurora**. Another possible origin is an acient germanic feast in spring, named &quot;*Ēostre*&quot; or &quot;*Ēastre*&quot; in old English, which is said to be named after the Greek goddess of aurora **Eos**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The New 'High German' Easter and the English Easter have the same linguistic root, but to the etymology there are different approaches. The dictionary of from the Duden derives the word from the Old Germanic Austrō&gt; Ausro &quot;dawn&quot;, which eventually designated a Germanic spring festival and Ēostre in Old English, Ēastre, in the Old High German ōst (a) ra, Plural ōstarun. The root word is related to the ancient Greek name of the divinized dawn: Ēōs and the Latin aurora &quot;dawn&quot;, which in turn have influenced other languages. The underlying Indo-European root is the noun * h₂au̯s-os &quot;dawn&quot;, derived from an Indo-European verbal root * h₂u̯es- &quot;be bright in the morning&quot; or * h₂au̯s- &quot;(from the water) draw, get a fire. &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Google Translate][2] (mildly edited)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostern&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://translate.google.com/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15407" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4599" RevisionGUID="387a5e4e-c3bc-4f7c-8ef3-dcfba1b5cb7a" CreationDate="2018-03-28T21:55:32.207" Comment="Proposed by 3491 approved by 4271, -1 edit id of 1587" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15408" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4599" RevisionGUID="1de0f8e5-f1d3-421b-a576-47d356aa5610" CreationDate="2018-03-28T21:55:32.207" UserId="2892" Comment="edit translation to sound more natural. Would be nice if someone could TL the weird characters properly" Text="&quot;**Ostern**&quot; the **german** word for Easter actually has the same etymology as the english term (citing the German [wiki page][1]): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Das neuhochdeutsche Ostern und das englische Easter haben die gleiche&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sprachliche Wurzel, zu deren Etymologie es verschiedene Lösungsansätze&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gibt. Das Herkunftswörterbuch des Duden leitet das Wort vom&#xD;&#xA;&gt; altgermanischen Austrō &gt; Ausro „Morgenröte“ ab, das eventuell ein&#xD;&#xA;&gt; germanisches Frühlingsfest bezeichnete und sich im Altenglischen zu&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ēostre, Ēastre, im Althochdeutschen zu ōst(a)ra, Plural ōstarun&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fortbildete. Der Wortstamm ist mit dem altgriechischen Namen der&#xD;&#xA;&gt; vergöttlichten Morgenröte Ēōs und dem lateinischen aurora „Morgenröte“&#xD;&#xA;&gt; verwandt, die ihrerseits weitere Sprachen beeinflusst haben. Die&#xD;&#xA;&gt; zugrunde liegende indogermanische Wurzel ist das Substantiv *h₂au̯s-os&#xD;&#xA;&gt; „Morgenröte“, abgeleitet von einer indogermanischen Verbalwurzel&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *h₂u̯es- „(morgens) hell werden“[6] oder *h₂au̯s- „(aus dem Wasser) schöpfen, Feuer holen“.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One possible origin is the germanic word &quot;*Austrō*&quot;, related to and meaning **aurora**. Another possible origin is an acient germanic feast in spring, named &quot;*Ēostre*&quot; or &quot;*Ēastre*&quot; in old English, which is said to be named after the Greek goddess of aurora **Eos**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The New 'High German' Easter and the English Easter have the same linguistic root, but with etymology there are different approaches. The dictionary from Duden derives the word from the Old Germanic Austrō &gt; Ausro &quot;dawn&quot;, which eventually designated a Germanic spring festival and Ēostre in Old English, Ēastre, in the Old High German ōst (a) ra, Plural ōstarun. The root word is related to the ancient Greek name of the divinized dawn: Ēōs and the Latin aurora &quot;dawn&quot;, which in turn have influenced other languages. The underlying Indo-European root is the noun * h₂au̯s-os &quot;dawn&quot;, derived from an Indo-European verbal root * h₂u̯es- &quot;be bright in the morning&quot; or * h₂au̯s- &quot;(from the water) draw, get a fire. &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Google Translate][2] (mildly edited)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostern&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://translate.google.com/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15409" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4644" RevisionGUID="19fe541c-12a4-4ab7-8074-53eb3deaaeb7" CreationDate="2018-03-28T22:38:01.753" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="In Basque mythology, [Gaueko][1] is the spirit or guardian of the night. He does not allow certain types of work to be done outside at nighttime, and he punishes those who boast that they are not afraid of the dark. He sometimes makes his presence felt as a gust of wind, or takes the form of a [black dog][2] or a bull. His name literally means &quot;of the night&quot; and appears in phrases such as &quot;gaueko hontza&quot; (night owl) and &quot;gaueko hasperenak&quot; (night sighs).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does Gaeuko connect with the notion of &quot;upperness&quot; or &quot;superiority&quot; denoted by the Basque word &quot;goiko&quot;?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaueko&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://%20https://exemplore.com/advanced-ancients/mythologicaldogsparti" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15410" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4644" RevisionGUID="19fe541c-12a4-4ab7-8074-53eb3deaaeb7" CreationDate="2018-03-28T22:38:01.753" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="Does Gaeuko, Guardian of the Night in Basque mythology, connect with the notion of &quot;upperness&quot; or &quot;superiority&quot; denoted by the Basque word &quot;goiko&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15411" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4644" RevisionGUID="19fe541c-12a4-4ab7-8074-53eb3deaaeb7" CreationDate="2018-03-28T22:38:01.753" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="|basque|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15412" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4643" RevisionGUID="63fedf02-639c-4f4e-823b-0a296c4ff20a" CreationDate="2018-03-28T23:05:36.923" UserId="2682" Comment="tweaked some info &amp; fixed grammar" Text="In the [DC Comics version of Greco-Roman mythology](http://wonder-woman.wikia.com/wiki/Ares) there are indeed plenty of stories which pit Ares against the Amazons and those which ally these women with Zeus. There are also some of these comicbook stories in which antagonism occurs between Zeus and the Amazons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In ancient mythography, however, it does not seem that the Amazons are ever even mentioned alongside Zeus in the same sentence. As for Ares, there are two quite indirect references that serve as a possibility but which I would say still add up to a “No” as well. These are both from the story of Theseus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The War Against Attika** [Attica]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story of Theseus’ interaction with the Amazons has it that at some point after he became king of Attika, Theseus participated in an expedition to the land of the Amazons either as his own project or as part of the ninth *athlos* (labour) of Herakles which required that the girdle of the Amazon queen Hippolyta be brought to Argolis. While he was there Theseus abducted either the queen herself or, as is more commonly reported, the queen’s sister Antiope (in one version of the story these two women’s names are swapped around too).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Taking the royal Amazon family member back to Attika with him, Theseus married her and she bore him a son. Some years afterwards Hippolyta (or whatever the Amazon queen’s name was) came to Attika with her entire army and besieged Theseus’ kingdom for three months in a bid to retrieve her sister therefrom. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Theseus’ wife fought by his side against her own sister and people and was run through with a spear by the Amazon Molpadia when Molpadia found out that Antiope wanted to stay with her husband. Molpadia was then killed and the Amazons eventually lost the war, their queen retreating with her remaining forces to Megara and dying there in grief while nursing the mortal wounds she had sustained.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After Theseus’ death there was a festival the Athenians celebrated in his honour, called the Theseia. Prior to its celebration, however, the Athenians always performed a sacrifice in honour of the fallen Amazons. The place by the Areiopagos, the &quot;Crag/Hill of Ares,&quot; at which the warrior women had made their camp was named the Amazonion [Amazonium], and the citadel and lofty towers which the women had built upon it rivalled those at Theseus' palace.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his *Life of Theseus*, Plutarch says that prior to his first foray into combat against the Amazons, an oracle had instructed Theseus to offer a sacrifice to Phobos, the *daimon* son of Ares who personified fear, especially the fear which leads to retreat from the battlefield.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Pausanias’ *Description of Greece*, at the city of Troizenos [Troezen], there was, on the way down to the harbour, a place called Kelenderis. A particular spot here had been named Genethlion, “Birthplace,” because it is where Theseus was born. Also on this spot Theseus had waged war against the Amazons during their attack upon his domain. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Before this place [Genethlion] is a temple of Ares, for here also did&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Theseus conquer the Amazons in battle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pausanias does not explicitly say that it is the case, but Florence Mary Bennett, in her book *Religious Cults Associated with the Amazons* (p. 58), interprets this to mean that Theseus is the one who built the Ares temple at Genethlion in order to commemorate his victory over these women.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The implication here is that Ares favoured Theseus over the Amazons. That, however, need not be the case.  After all, the Amazons’ enemies the Athenians themselves performed religious ceremonies in honour of the Amazons that they themselves had killed. Granted that the Athenians were notorious down into later times for being hyper-religious, trying to be careful to honour every deity and divinity that they came across. This was so much so that by the Roman period it would be remarked that it was easier to find a god (i.e. an idol) than a man in Athens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;During the trial of Orestes on the Athenian Areipoagos in Aeschylus’ *Eumenides*, the goddess Athena points out to the court that the Amazons performed sacrifice to Ares on this very spot during their siege of Attika a generation prior to this trial. That the women's sacrifices did not avail them of victory might strengthen the notion that Ares was in some way against the Amazons in this instance. It is, however, a glaring phenomenon in the mythology that Ares, even when he himself participates in wars personally (maybe *especially* when he does), is really not good at winning them, in spite of his immense size! In his most famous altercations, those against Herakles and Diomedes, he is so painfully wounded by these mortals that he must flee from the battlefield to seek medical attention among his fellow gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An additional consideration to be made regarding the war between Theseus and the Amazons is that one of Ares’ daughters, Theseus’ wife (typically Antiope, although Plutarch notes that Cleidemus names her Hippolyta, who nonetheless by all accounts is also Ares’ offspring), is fighting on the side of the Athenians. If we are to understand Theseus’ ceremonial activity in connection with this conflict (the sacrifice to Phobos and the construction of the Genethlion shrine to Ares) as an indication of Ares’ disfavour towards the Amazons, it could conversely be interpreted that the one Amazon who is fighting against her own people might be the one bearing her father’s favour in this case.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Harmony**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The characterisation of the DC Amazons as a society of peace-loving yet formidable warriors can be rendered as an unintentional exploration of the other side of this nation’s origin in the ancient myths. Admittedly this theory is based entirely on the etymology of one character’s name, which is by no means overtly consequential in any story. As your *Argonautika* quote says, the first Amazons were the daughters of Ares by an obscure nymph named Harmonia in the “Wood of Akmon”, which I find to be a most tantalising reference indeed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;DC Comics and the 2017 *Wonder Woman* movie may have ended up inadvertently exploring the maternal origins of the Amazons in a deeper way than the ancient Greek and Roman writers. It’s as if someone had asked these questions: What if the name of the Amazons’ mother Harmonia, “Harmony,” is an indication that she is a personification of peace and tranquillity just as much as Ares personifies senseless violence and *en masse* belligerence? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And if so, what if the Amazons had taken after their mother rather than their father? This line of theory breaks down eventually because in the DC lore Ares is *not* the Amazons’ father. But it points to an interesting thought which could conceivably have stronger roots in the original version of this mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The references in Plutarch and Pausanias, therefore, seem to be the closest one could get to a conflict between Ares and the Amazons, and, as stated before, I don’t think that they can be counted as such in any meaningful sense.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Other Deities**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond him siring the Amazons upon the nymph Harmonia, him siring a few more daughters upon Otrere and Oreithyia, and him giving Hippolyta her famous girdle, Ares really has no direct interaction with any Amazon in the ancient mythology, whether positive or negative. As a matter of fact the Amazons barely have contact with any deity in general. There are only two exceptions to this that I am aware of: Artemis and Dionysos [Dionysos]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Diodorus Siculus’ *Bibliotheka Historika*, the Amazons Kelaino [Celaeno], Eurybia and Phoibe [Phoebe] are said to have been hunting companions of Artemis. They were all killed fighting to defend their queendom when Herakles came to fetch Queen Hippolyta’s girdle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dionysos, during his tumultuous campaign around the world, made war on the Amazons. Pausanias says that some of them fled before him, ending up as suppliants at the temple of Artemis Ephesia (Artemis of Ephesos [Ephesus]), which sanctuary a queen of theirs had built long before then. As he was in the habit of doing, such as when he had conquered the Indians, he added some of his defeated foes to his retinue. “Those Thermodontian hordes” of “warrior women”, Seneca tell us, were turned into [Mainades](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maenad) [Maenades].     " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15413" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3117" RevisionGUID="eef3e0fe-68b8-4424-80cc-e015e985ec03" CreationDate="2018-03-28T23:40:21.997" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="15414" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4645" RevisionGUID="591b3333-40be-41f8-9f2d-25c8c00e6280" CreationDate="2018-03-29T00:53:38.683" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="A European example is Basque mythology, at least probably.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some say the goddess [Mari][1] in [leads the other deities][2], or that she is [the most prominent mythical being in Basque tradition][3], but little is known about her consort Sugaar (Maju). Interestingly in Basque mythology both Sun (Eki) and Moon (Ilazki) are female.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mari_(goddess)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://basquemythology.amaroa.com/personajes-mitologicos-de-vasconia/mari&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.buber.net/Basque/Folklore/aunamendi.mythology.php" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15415" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4646" RevisionGUID="04dfb484-5fb4-47bd-8529-16a6cbbc17cf" CreationDate="2018-03-29T01:03:17.393" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="In Basque mythology the Sun goddess, Eki, and the Moon goddess, Ilazki, are sisters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In what other mythologies are the Sun and Moon both female?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15416" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4646" RevisionGUID="04dfb484-5fb4-47bd-8529-16a6cbbc17cf" CreationDate="2018-03-29T01:03:17.393" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="In what mythologies other than the Basque are the Sun and Moon both female?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15417" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4646" RevisionGUID="04dfb484-5fb4-47bd-8529-16a6cbbc17cf" CreationDate="2018-03-29T01:03:17.393" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="|basque|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15418" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4647" RevisionGUID="db14331e-5d21-457b-b81a-ce6a040dc3f4" CreationDate="2018-03-29T01:18:33.697" UserId="91" Text="Many cultures have a [flood myth][1]; one explanation is that these were real, localised floods during the end of the [last ice age][2], which were passed down through prehistoric oral traditions and myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Likewise, there were other kinds of dramatic climate and environmental changes. During the Neolithic, what's now the Sahara desert was a [savannah supporting human populations][3]. These inhabitants would have experienced the desertification of the area and would have had to migrate to survive.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are these events reflected in any myths? Are there any myths depicting desertification, and possibly a mass migration out of a desert?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_glacial_period&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_Subpluvial" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15419" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4647" RevisionGUID="db14331e-5d21-457b-b81a-ce6a040dc3f4" CreationDate="2018-03-29T01:18:33.697" UserId="91" Text="Are there any desertification myths?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15420" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4647" RevisionGUID="db14331e-5d21-457b-b81a-ce6a040dc3f4" CreationDate="2018-03-29T01:18:33.697" UserId="91" Text="|mythohistory|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15421" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4647" RevisionGUID="bb3db7f2-08e7-414a-bb34-e97acca69c62" CreationDate="2018-03-29T01:28:58.623" UserId="91" Comment="added 521 characters in body" Text="Many cultures have a [flood myth][1]; one explanation is that these were real, localised floods during the end of the [last ice age][2], which were passed down through prehistoric oral traditions and myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Likewise, there were other kinds of dramatic climate and environmental changes. During the Neolithic, what's now the Sahara desert was a [savannah supporting human populations][3]. These inhabitants would have experienced the desertification of the area and would have had to migrate to survive.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The [Saharan and Arabia regions'] transition to today's arid climate was not gradual, but occurred in two specific episodes. The first, which was less severe, occurred between 6,700 and 5,500 years ago. The second, which was brutal, lasted from 4,000 to 3,600 years ago. Summer temperatures increased sharply, and precipitation decreased, according to carbon-14 dating. This event devastated ancient civilizations and their socio-economic systems.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/07/990712080500.htm&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are these events reflected in any myths? Are there any myths depicting desertification, and possibly a mass migration out of a desert?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_glacial_period&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_Subpluvial" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15426" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4649" RevisionGUID="7bf01cce-d9a7-4f5f-8575-4d6fbd0c21ee" CreationDate="2018-03-29T03:46:00.763" UserId="4271" Text="I recently came across this title (?) of Poseidon on another question asked on this sight, but have no idea what it means. I have tried a direct Google search, but come up empty handed. The only thing I found was the question I got it from.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where does Poseidon get called the God of Kin?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is he worshiped any differently as the God of Kin?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What does he function as when he's the God of Kin?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15427" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4649" RevisionGUID="7bf01cce-d9a7-4f5f-8575-4d6fbd0c21ee" CreationDate="2018-03-29T03:46:00.763" UserId="4271" Text="Where does Poseidon get called the God of Kin?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15428" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4649" RevisionGUID="7bf01cce-d9a7-4f5f-8575-4d6fbd0c21ee" CreationDate="2018-03-29T03:46:00.763" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|poseidon|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15429" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4643" RevisionGUID="12ff1694-7fbd-4738-b127-d6756c9cb49e" CreationDate="2018-03-29T04:21:15.537" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar; &amp; updated &amp; added info" Text="In the [DC Comics version of Greco-Roman mythology](http://wonder-woman.wikia.com/wiki/Ares) there are indeed plenty of stories which pit Ares against the Amazons and those which ally these women with Zeus. There are also some of these comicbook stories in which antagonism occurs between Zeus and the Amazons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In ancient mythography, however, it does not seem that the Amazons are ever even mentioned alongside Zeus in the same sentence. As for Ares, there are two quite indirect references that serve as a possibility but which I would say still add up to a “No” as well. These are both from the adventures of Theseus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The War Against Attika** [Attica]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The saga of Theseus’ interaction with the Amazons has it that at some point after he became king of Attika, Theseus participated in an expedition to the land of the Amazons either as his own project or as part of the ninth *athlos* (labour/ task) of Herakles which required that the girdle of the Amazon queen Hippolyta be brought to Argolis. While he was in their territory Theseus abducted either the queen herself or, as is more commonly reported, the queen’s sister Antiope (in one version of the story these two women’s names are swapped around too).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Taking the royal Amazon family member back to Attika with him, Theseus married her and she bore him a son. Some years afterwards Hippolyta (or whatever the Amazon queen’s name was) came to Attika with her entire army and besieged Theseus’ kingdom for three months in a bid to retrieve her sister therefrom. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Theseus’ wife fought by his side against her own sister and people and was run through with a spear by the Amazon Molpadia when Molpadia found out that Antiope wanted to stay with her husband. Molpadia was then killed and the Amazons eventually lost the war, their queen retreating with her remaining forces to Megara and dying there in grief while nursing the mortal wounds she had sustained.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After Theseus’ death a festival, called the Theseia, was instituted to celebrate the great hero king. Prior to this celebration, however, the Athenians always performed a sacrifice in honour of the fallen Amazons. The place by the Areiopagos, the &quot;Crag/Hill of Ares,&quot; at which the warrior women had established their camp was named the Amazonion [Amazonium], and the citadel and lofty towers which the women had built upon it rivalled those around Theseus' palace.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his *Life of Theseus*, Plutarch says that prior to his first foray into combat against the Amazons, an oracle had instructed Theseus to offer a sacrifice to Phobos, the *daimon* son of Ares who personified fear, especially the fear which leads to retreat from the battlefield.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Pausanias’ *Description of Greece*, at the city of Troizenos [Troezen], there was, on the way down to the harbour, a place called Kelenderis. A particular spot here had been named Genethlion, “Birthplace,” because it is where Theseus was born. Also on this spot Theseus had waged war against the Amazons during their attack upon his domain. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Before this place [Genethlion] is a temple of Ares, for here also did&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Theseus conquer the Amazons in battle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pausanias does not explicitly say that it is the case, but Florence Mary Bennett, in her book *Religious Cults Associated with the Amazons* (p. 58), interprets this to mean that Theseus is the one who built the Ares temple at Genethlion in order to commemorate his victory over these women.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The implication here is that Ares favoured Theseus over the Amazons. That, however, need not be the case.  After all, the Amazons’ enemies the Athenians themselves performed religious ceremonies in honour of the Amazons that they themselves had killed. Granted that the Athenians were notorious down into later times for being hyper-religious, trying to be careful to honour every last deity and divinity that they came across. This was so much so that by the Roman period it would be remarked that it was easier to find a god (i.e. an idol) than a man in Athens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;During the trial of Orestes on the Athenian Areipoagos in Aeschylus’ *Eumenides*, the goddess Athena points out to the court that the Amazons performed sacrifice to Ares on this very spot during their siege of Attika a generation prior to this trial. That the women's sacrifices did not avail them of victory might strengthen the notion that Ares was in some way opposed to the Amazons in this instance. It is, however, a glaring phenomenon in the mythology that Ares, even when he himself participates in wars personally (maybe *especially* when he does), is really not good at winning them, in spite of his immense size! In his most dramatic battlefield altercations on Earth, those against Herakles and Diomedes, he is so badly wounded by these mortals that he must repair to the home of the gods for an urgent patch-up in the divine infirmary.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An additional consideration to be made regarding the war between Theseus and the Amazons is that one of Ares’ daughters, Theseus’ wife (typically Antiope, although Plutarch notes that Cleidemus names her Hippolyta, who nonetheless by all accounts is also Ares’ offspring), is fighting on the side of the Athenians. If we are to understand Theseus’ ceremonial activity in connection with this conflict (the sacrifice to Phobos and the construction of the Genethlion shrine to Ares) as an indication of Ares’ disfavour towards the Amazons, it could conversely be interpreted that the one Amazon who is fighting against her own people might be the one bearing her father’s favour in this case.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Harmony**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The characterisation of the DC Amazons as a society of peace-loving yet formidable warriors can be rendered as an unintentional exploration of the other side of this nation’s origin in the ancient myths. Admittedly this theory is based entirely on the etymology of one character’s name, which is by no means overtly consequential in any story. As your *Argonautika* quote says, the first Amazons were the daughters of Ares by an obscure nymph named Harmonia in the “Wood of Akmon”, which I find to be a most tantalising reference indeed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;DC Comics and the 2017 *Wonder Woman* movie may have ended up inadvertently exploring the maternal origins of the Amazons in a deeper understanding than the ancient Greco-Roman writers. It’s as if someone had asked these questions: What if the name of the Amazons’ mother Harmonia, “Harmony,” is an indication that she is a personification of peace and tranquillity just as much as Ares personifies senseless violence and *en masse* belligerence? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And if so, what if the Amazons had taken after their mother rather than their father? This line of theory breaks down eventually because in the DC lore Ares is *not* the Amazons’ father nor in fact is Harmonia their mother. But it points to an interesting nuance that could conceivably have stronger roots in the original version of this mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The references in Plutarch and Pausanias would appear to be the closest one could get to a conflict between Ares and the Amazons, and, as stated before, I don’t think that they can be counted as such in any meaningful sense.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond him siring the Amazons upon the nymph Harmonia, him siring a few more daughters upon Otrere and Oreithyia, and him giving Hippolyta her famous girdle, Ares really has no direct interaction with any Amazon in the ancient mythology, whether positive or negative. If anything Ares' relations with the Amazons is made conspicuous by his absence among them! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In their two most famous confrontations before the Trojan War, their fights with Herakles and with Theseus, Ares doesn't show up at all like he does during Herakles' duel against Ares' son [Kyknos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycnus_(son_of_Ares)) [Cycnus] or during [Herakles' attack on the city of Pylos](http://www.greecetravel.com/greekmyths/argos12.htm). Moreover the battle with Herakles is the result of Ares's mother Hera herself making an appearance for the purpose of provoking violence between Herakles and the warrior women. Beyond this apparent neglect on Ares's part, the Amazons are certainly, to go back again to Apollonius Rhodius, depicted as bellicose and pugnacious, which should make them just Ares' kinda gals! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Other Deities**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond Ares' overall MIA status among the warrior women in question, the Amazons, as a matter of fact, barely have contact with any deity in general. There are only two exceptions to this that I am aware of: Artemis and Dionysos [Dionysos]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Diodorus Siculus’ *Bibliotheka Historika*, the Amazons Kelaino [Celaeno], Eurybia and Phoibe [Phoebe] are said to have been hunting companions of Artemis. They were slain, all three of them, fighting to defend their queendom when Herakles came to fetch Queen Hippolyta’s girdle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dionysos, during his tumultuous campaign around the world, made war on the Amazons. Pausanias says that some of them fled before him, ending up as suppliants at the temple of Artemis Ephesia (Artemis of Ephesos [Ephesus]), which sanctuary a queen of theirs had built long before then. As he was in the habit of doing, such as when he had conquered the Indians, he added some of his defeated foes to his retinue. “Those Thermodontian hordes” of “warrior women”, Seneca tell us, were turned into [Mainades](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maenad) [Maenades].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dionysos' genealogy is intriguing background character information which nevertheless does not seem to affect the story: Dionysos himself is Ares' offspring, since Ares is his great-grandfather. Just like in the encounters with Herakles and Theseus, here is another major conflict in which the Amazons are engaged but in which Ares does not feature at all, although nothing in what we know about the story indicates that it is because he was supporting his more distant descendant, the god of wine, over against his daughters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dionysos bears a connection with Harmonia as well: Dionysos' mother Semele is the daughter of Harmonia daughter of Ares. This Harmonia, however, is explicitly said to have been the goddess of harmony and concord; she is Ares' daughter rather than his lover; and she becomes queen of Thebes after marrying the city's founder Kadmos [Cadmus], to whom she bears Semele. The coincidence between two Harmoniai (Harmonias) both Ares-related is fascinatingly curious. Aaron Atsma's analysis of it is that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Amazonian Harmonia does not appear to have been identified with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Theban Harmonia. They both have the Greek word *harmonia*,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;harmony,&quot; for a name but in the case of the Amazon it no doubt&#xD;&#xA;&gt; referred to the harmony of military formation whereas the Theban queen&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was harmony in the sense of marital bliss.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15430" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4650" RevisionGUID="78f16d95-5053-426c-b376-a9f24ac324b9" CreationDate="2018-03-29T07:46:41.307" UserId="467" Text="I'm aware that some Mesopotamian goddesses are said to give birth painlessly, and also the case of Leto in Greece who does the same, but I'm looking for other examples. Does anyone know other examples?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15431" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4650" RevisionGUID="78f16d95-5053-426c-b376-a9f24ac324b9" CreationDate="2018-03-29T07:46:41.307" UserId="467" Text="Goddesses Who Live Birth Without Pain" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15432" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4650" RevisionGUID="78f16d95-5053-426c-b376-a9f24ac324b9" CreationDate="2018-03-29T07:46:41.307" UserId="467" Text="|goddesses|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15434" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4651" RevisionGUID="d5243e63-20f8-45b5-bc34-b234b04a3b73" CreationDate="2018-03-29T08:39:57.407" UserId="4142" Text="There appear to be many American tribes which have similar views but the question is really much more complicated. It should not be assumed that all languages have gender, that gender implies sex, or that the moon or the sun at different occasions is the same entity, etc. etc. A classic 10 page paper by Levi Straus *The Sex of the Sun and Moon* (Structural anthropology v.2) has treated the question in a most enlightening way.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sometimes in one myth to the other in the same group the sun and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; moon are  two women or two men (p.219)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15435" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4652" RevisionGUID="11945c10-8caf-4371-83e7-d65fe49c2eee" CreationDate="2018-03-29T09:12:45.367" UserId="2682" Text="Presumably the other question to which you refer in your own inquiry is &quot;[Why would Aphrodite be armed?](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2868/why-would-aphrodite-be-armed)&quot;, asked by @yannis, in which he links [here](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0525.tlg001.perseus-eng1:3.15.10) to the 1918 translation of Pausanias' *Description of Greece* 3.15.10, by William Henry Samuel Jones and Henry Ardene Omerod.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Meaning**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jones &amp; Omerod's translation here is a bit loose. Pausanias does not really say anything that amounts to calling Poseidon the &quot;god of&quot; such-and-such. Rather he applies the title *Genethlios* (Latinised as *Genethlius*) to Poseidon, saying that there was a sanctuary dedicated to this god at **Sparta**, &quot;not far from the theatre&quot; and at which sanctuary there were hero-shrines to Kleodaios [Cleodaeus] (a grandson of Herakles) and Oibalos [Oebalus] (the father of King Tyndareus).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A fairly direct translation of Genethlios, via the Latin roots of English, is &quot;Generator,&quot; in the sense of &quot;Engenderer&quot; or &quot;Begetter,&quot; i.e. *one who gives birth*, or (since we're referring here to a male, and males typically cannot give birth) the *source of one who is born*. The term was even used to mean &quot;birthday.&quot; In his book *Greek Gods Abroad: Names, Natures, and Transformations*, Robert Parker translates the name as &quot;of Begetting&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As Oibalos is one of the earliest kings of Sparta—only fourth since the city's foundation by his great-grandfather Lakedaimon son of Zeus—Claude Calame finds it significant that Oibalos's hero-shrine is located in close proximity to the Poseidon Genethlios temple. In his chapter contributing to *Interpretations of Greek Mythology*, he understands this god's name to mean: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the guardian of the *gene*, the clans constituting the first Spartan&#xD;&#xA;&gt; citizens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Gene* here is *not* referring to the modern scientific term in English, although the root concept is similar. Genethlios is thus [also interpreted](http://www.angelfire.com/moon2/thiasos_hades/Poseidon.htm) as &quot;Of Kindred&quot; in the sense of belonging to a particular &quot;race&quot; or family; or essentially a similar type of grouping bearing some level of homo*gene*ity. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Bithynia** (A Few Days Due East of Troy)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his *Argonautika*, Apollonius Rhodius says that Amykos [Amycus], the gigantic king of the Bebrykes [Bebryces] of Bithynia, who challenged foreign visitors to his land to a boxing match which they would not survive, was the son of Poseidon Genethlios by a local nymph named Melia. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the &quot;Explanatory Notes&quot; to his own translation of Apollonius, entitled *Jason and the Golden Fleece (The Argonautica)*, Richard Hunter says: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The title Genethlios ('Generative') implies that Poseidon was the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; creator and protector of the Bebrykians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Curiosities of Indo-European Tradition and Folk-Lore*, Walter Keating Kelly takes a different approach to this, claiming that Genethlios is a surname which marks Poseidon&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; emphatically as the god at whose disposal is the moisture that is the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cause of all fruitfulness and nourishment.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Because Melia's name means &quot;ash-tree,&quot; he goes on to say that the god's connection with this nymph &quot;distinctly represents&quot; a certain archetypal Indo-European tree (apparently) &quot;in which are comprised all the seeds of vegetation.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Argolis**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The place at which Theseus was born in the city of Troizenos [Troezen] in Argolis, on the way down to the harbour, was called Genethlion, &quot;Birthplace,&quot; or more literally, the name of the spot was simply just &quot;Of Birth.&quot; (The Latinised version of the name is Genethlium.) There was a connection here to Poseidon, who not only was much revered in this city, especially at this spot, but was also reputed as the real father of Theseus, over against Aigeus [Aegeus].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At another place in Argolis, near Lerna, there was a village called Genesion [Lat. *Genesium*]. Pausanias reports that here, &quot;By the sea, is a small sanctuary of Poseidon Genesios.&quot; According to William Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology this epithet means &quot;Father.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The name is identical in meaning with Genethlius (γενέθλιος), under&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which the same god had a sanctuary at Sparta.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Possible Cultic Activity in Veneration of Poseidon Genethlios**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the *Description of Greece*, the springs of the Inakhos [Inachus] River were on Mt Artemisios. These springs did not run far. The river, so long as it flowed by the road across the mountain, was the border between Argos and Mantineia, the latter of these being in Arkadia [Arcadia]. A road led over Mt Artemisios from Argos into Arkadia. After crossing into Mantineia over Mr Artemisios there was a plateau called &quot;the Untilled Plain,&quot; which was claimed by the Arkadians [Aracdians] to be the birthplace of Poseidon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rainwater coming down from the mountain prevented this land’s arability, and it would have been a lake if the water did not disappear into a chasm there, after which this same water rose again at Dīnē, &quot;Whirlpool,&quot; a freshwater stream rising out of the sea in Genethlion (Theseus' birthplace). The Argives used to cast horses adorned with bridles into Dīnē as offerings to Poseidon (perhaps = Poseidon Genethlios or Genesios).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Zeus Genethlios**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus, by the way, was also venerated as Genethlios. The translation from kk_Omatsu's Wattpad blog renders Genethlios as &quot;creator of life&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Pindar's Mythmaking: The Fourth Pythian Ode*, Charles Segal says that Helios, the sun-god, too was given the title *genethlios patēr* (*patēr* = &quot;father&quot;),&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a frequent epithet of Zeus as the source of procreative energy and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; guardian of the patriarchal family.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Vol. 1 of *The Cults of the Greek States*, Lewis Richard Farnell interprets Zeus Genethlios as &quot;the god of the birthright,&quot; who could assume the function, like the Erinyes, of specially punishing &quot;wrong done to parents&quot; and executing the curse a father has placed upon his offspring.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A letter from Laodike [Laodice] III, Queen Consort of the Seleukid [Seleucid] Empire, to the people of the city of Sardeis [Sardis] acknowledges these people's pledge to offer a sacrifice to Zeus Genethlios for the protection of the royal family members. [The letter](http://www.attalus.org/docs/seg/s39_1284.html) reads as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Queen Laodike to the council and people of Sardeis: greetings.*    &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Your envoys - Metrodoros, Metrophanes, Sokrates and Herakleides - have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; presented your decree, in which you voted to ... perform a procession&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and sacrifice to Zeus Genethlios for the safety of our brother&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Antiokhos [Antiochus] and ourselves and our children; and the envoys&#xD;&#xA;&gt; addressed us in accordance with what was recorded in the decree.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; We had gladly accepted the honours, and we praise the people for their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eagerness. We will always try to help in establishing something&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beneficial for the city, and the envoys will report to you about these&#xD;&#xA;&gt; matters.     &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*Year 99, 10th day of Panemos*&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15436" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4650" RevisionGUID="e7bd79a8-7508-46f7-b3ae-dfcdaac8110b" CreationDate="2018-03-29T09:40:59.477" UserId="201" Comment="edited title" Text="Goddesses Who Give Birth Without Pain" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15437" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4653" RevisionGUID="48667da1-411a-4e51-9656-65f8ebb833f2" CreationDate="2018-03-29T18:41:27.273" UserId="4657" Text="And are there any myths about him? I cant find much about him besides the fact that he became a demonic god at some point." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15438" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4653" RevisionGUID="48667da1-411a-4e51-9656-65f8ebb833f2" CreationDate="2018-03-29T18:41:27.273" UserId="4657" Text="Who is Er kishi in Mongol mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15439" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4653" RevisionGUID="48667da1-411a-4e51-9656-65f8ebb833f2" CreationDate="2018-03-29T18:41:27.273" UserId="4657" Text="|mongolian-shamanism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15441" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4654" RevisionGUID="34d3c402-e002-4cb6-a863-517f18f81cd7" CreationDate="2018-03-29T20:07:48.717" UserId="4271" Text="I come across every now and then that the smith god and the love goddess got divorce. But to contrast that, I read they are still together in Roman Myths and times. Though I also have contrast to that and I suppose it could be a copy of the Greek Myths. Can anyone clear this up for me?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15442" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4654" RevisionGUID="34d3c402-e002-4cb6-a863-517f18f81cd7" CreationDate="2018-03-29T20:07:48.717" UserId="4271" Text="Did Hephaestus and Aphrodite get divorced?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15443" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4654" RevisionGUID="34d3c402-e002-4cb6-a863-517f18f81cd7" CreationDate="2018-03-29T20:07:48.717" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|roman|aphrodite|hephaestus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15444" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4655" RevisionGUID="93b4873b-9c1a-4402-8212-f4a935734e0c" CreationDate="2018-03-29T21:14:42.827" UserId="4271" Text="We know that the Helm of Darkness was given to Hades by the Elder cyclopes and the Hundred-Handed Ones. But, then it kind of disappears. Is it anywhere else in Mythology besides the Titanomachy?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15445" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4655" RevisionGUID="93b4873b-9c1a-4402-8212-f4a935734e0c" CreationDate="2018-03-29T21:14:42.827" UserId="4271" Text="Does Hades's Helm of Darkness appear anywhere else in Mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15446" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4655" RevisionGUID="93b4873b-9c1a-4402-8212-f4a935734e0c" CreationDate="2018-03-29T21:14:42.827" UserId="4271" Text="|god-items|hades|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15447" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4656" RevisionGUID="b5803953-01ad-4e5a-9adc-9ecc000ed0e2" CreationDate="2018-03-29T21:30:22.030" UserId="4271" Text="This is the way I see it. Heracles rescued Theseus from the Underworld. But now I'm left with the question, &quot;If Heracles and Theseus were alive at the same time, how did Theseus ever get any glory?&quot; He would only be popular in Minos, Athens and the surrounding areas, where he killed the Minotaur. Thought I'm not sure how individuals talked back then. But I don't see how Theseus could become widespread along with Heracles unless, Theseus was already well known when Heracles was young. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The mortal body can only go so long without nourishment. I don't see how Theseus and his partner in crime could survive more then a ten days in the Chairs of Forgetfulness/Torment unless...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Hades fed Theseus and his companion&#xD;&#xA; - Hades willed them to live &#xD;&#xA; - Hades ordered Thanatos not to, for lack of a better word, kill them.&#xD;&#xA; - The chairs themselves sustained their lives&#xD;&#xA; - A massive coincidence that Theseus is trapped in the Underworld and Heracles in told to go get Kerberos (Cerberus in Latin)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is why I ask how long Theseus was in the Underworld." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15448" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4656" RevisionGUID="b5803953-01ad-4e5a-9adc-9ecc000ed0e2" CreationDate="2018-03-29T21:30:22.030" UserId="4271" Text="How long was Theseus in the Underworld?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15449" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4656" RevisionGUID="b5803953-01ad-4e5a-9adc-9ecc000ed0e2" CreationDate="2018-03-29T21:30:22.030" UserId="4271" Text="|underworld|hercules|mythohistory|theseus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15450" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4657" RevisionGUID="e1bbed68-1910-412f-b905-888c65e5afd0" CreationDate="2018-03-29T22:45:50.090" UserId="4271" Text="Why would the goddess of love, beauty, and procreation be armed? (Note, all the links are the same source.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The cult of an armed Aphrodite was present in Laconia in early Archaic times. [(PG2)][1] The first images of Aphrodite where armed. [(PG3)][1] The first can be traced back to 380 B.C. But it is carried in a way that characterizes Aphrodite as a love goddess. [(PG7)][1] Their are images of Aphrodite taking part in the Gigantomachy, but the source doesn't count this as prove Aphrodite was a &quot;war goddess.&quot; There are seventeen copies of a statue with Aphrodite putting on a sword (&quot;This is clearly not a war goddess, but the love goddess donning the sword of Ares.&quot;). [(PG4)][1] The source says, &quot;If the sculptor got the idea of creating an 'armed Aphrodite' from the old xocina, he created exactly the same thing as the poets, changing a war goddess into the familiar love goddess and thereby reestablishing the normal gender roles of society.&quot; [(PG5)][1] The source believes that Aphrodite was armed because it was warranted, possibly as a city goddess and not as a war goddess. [(PG12)][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To sum up, she was not originally seen as a war goddess. It is believed that before the Greek Pantheon as we know it came to be, Athena, Artemis and Aphrodite were one goddess. But, because a whole lot of males didn't like a goddess being so active/involved, split them up. Then when a few of the older images cropped up, poets and artists reinterpreted them. [(PG12-13)][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://digitalt.uib.no/bitstream/handle/1956.2/2995/The%20transformations%20of%20the%20armed%20Aphrodite_Flemberg.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15451" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4658" RevisionGUID="db757995-8da8-4894-9624-2ce171bbdf2a" CreationDate="2018-03-30T05:10:45.423" UserId="2682" Text="Yes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Perseus vs Medusa**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Before setting off on his mission to go kill the monster Medusa, Perseus received certain special items to help the project along. One of the items was the *Aidos kyne* (or *Aidos kyneēn*), &quot;cap of Hades&quot; or &quot;cap of invisibility&quot; (or &quot;Helm of Darkness,&quot; if you will), which he sorely needed in order to escape Medusa's two triplet Gorgon sisters after he had beheaded her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was either a group of nymphs from the Underworld who gave Perseus the invisibility cap, presumably having been sent by the lord of the nether realm himself, or Perseus received the cap from Hermes, who features as the primary user of this item in a similar manner to that in which, even though the Aegis belongs to Zeus, it primarily seems to be used by Athena.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact, in his *Poetica Astronomica*, the Roman writer Hyginus seems to suggest that the cap given by Hermes to Perseus was none other than Hermes' own [*petasos*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petasos) [*petasus*], the herald-god's sun-hat which eventually was conceived of as having wings like his sandals did, these sandals also having been lent to Perseus for the Medusa Mission. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyginus understands Hermes' hat as possessing the same invisibility power and says that this is the reason that &quot;the Greeks have called it the helmet of Hades&quot;, because *Hades* means the &quot;Invisible/Unseen One.&quot; Hyginus lodges a complaint in all this by adding that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Perseus did not, as some ignorant people interpret it, wear the helmet&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Orcus {*a Roman name for Hades*} himself, for no educated person&#xD;&#xA;&gt; could believe that.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hermes vs Hippolytus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A few generations after Medusa's demise, the Gigantes (Giants) attacked the gods on Mt Olympus, precipitating a dramatic contest which came to be known as the Gigantomachy. During this confrontation, Apollodorus tells us in the *Bibliotheka*, Hermes squared off against a Giant named Hippolytus, whom the messenger-god managed to vanquish while wearing the *Aidos kyne*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Athena vs Ares**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One generation later, the Trojan War broke out. During this conflict, according to Book 5 of the *Iliad*, Athena briefly became the charioteer of the Greek warrior Diomedes on the battlefield at Troy. Together they attacked Ares but before they charged upon him, Athena donned the cap of Hades &quot;so that mighty Ares should not see her.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Obscuring the Vision**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As Hyginus points out, the name Hades means &quot;Hidden&quot; or &quot;Unseen.&quot; The story about him owning a hat that magically makes its wearer invisible seems to be a bit of wordplay on what makes Hades, Hades. What makes the Unseen One invisible? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Part of the logic in the whole idea of Hades is that he escapes the gaze of mortals (and indeed of most of the gods themselves) because he lives deep under the earth in a world of total darkness in which the rays of the sun are outlawed, where even if one stood right before him, the deity would still be hidden from sight. In a sense, then, the entire nether world *is* the Helm of Darkness encompassing the god Hades. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is significant, to my mind, that after the story in which the Cyclopes make the cap for Hades and give it to him, the king of the dead is never explicitly described as actually wearing the thing. Notice the contrast between this and the gifts presented to Poseidon and Zeus, who are practically hyperactive in *their* use of Trident and thunderbolts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;(The Hundred-Handed Ones, by the way, were not involved in the creation of the cap, nor are they said to have presented it to Hades. This was exclusively an enterprise of the Cyclopes. Same thing with Zeus's thunderbolts and Poseidon's Trident.)&lt;/sub&gt;       " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15452" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4659" RevisionGUID="c03da3e0-3afe-4d83-9094-9090fa6c2e67" CreationDate="2018-03-30T07:22:02.303" UserId="2682" Text="Yes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Greco-Roman mythology contains a story precisely about the region to which you refer. It so happens that this desertification narrative, which accounts for cold deserts as well as hot ones, is part of the Greco-Roman Flood myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Phaethon, the son of the Sun-Titan Helios and the Oceanid Klymene [Clymene], after being taunted by the accusation that he is a bastard, sets off to prove his paternity. After Helios swears to give him whatever he wants, Phaethon begs his father to let him drive his car, the fiery sun-chariot, across the sky for a day. Unable to convince him to make an alternative request, Helios hands the chariot over, and the universe is launched into cataclysm.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unable to control the white-hot steeds pulling the chariot, Phaethon loses control of the vehicle, driving off the daily track and up too high into the sky. This creates the frozen regions at the edges of the world: the icy deserts. Angie Briese's Greek Gods and Goddesses website bears an interesting summary thereof:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Still, there are traces of Phaethon’s ride. The ends of the earth are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; still covered with icecaps, and mountains still rumble, trying to spit&#xD;&#xA;&gt; out the fire started in their bellies by the diving sun.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While the creation of cold deserts might be somewhat of a looser modern interpretation of the myth, the ancient poet Ovid quite undoubtedly refers to the origin of the Sahara in Book 2 of the *Metamorphoses*. In this sprawling epic, Phaethon also drives the sun-chariot too close to the Earth, and in so doing he reduces entire cities to dust and ashes, inadvertently annihilating whole nations after, essentially, setting the world on fire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Every river and spring that doesn't burn now evaporates and the entire sea turns into a desert as well. The seven mouths of the Nile River &quot;gaped dusty&quot;,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The wide seas shrink and, where ocean lay,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; A wilderness of dry sand spread;   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; New peaks and ranges rise, long covered by the deep,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And multiply the scattered islands of the Cyclades.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The fishes dive, the dolphins dare not leap  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Their curving course through the familiar air,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And lifeless seals float supine on the waves;   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Even Nereus, fathoms down, in his dark caves,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; With Doris and her daughters, felt the fire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Poseidon himself huddles under whichever water remains because the sweltering air outside it burns with such unbearable intensity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After the earth-goddess Gaia prays to Zeus for help against the raging fire, the king of the gods actually worsens the situation by blasting Phaethon out of the sky with a lightning-blast. This scatters the chariot, horses and charioteer all over the world. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The chariot, crashing into Libya, ensures that the damage to the ground there is permanent, while the horses fall into the sea and Phaethon's corpse ends up in the Eridanos [Eridanus] River in Europe, where it smoulders for centuries thereafter, thus creating a set of pungent hot springs thereat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To save everything from complete incineration, but also as an excuse to execute his side scheme to wipe out the human race, Zeus floods the Earth. The mass migration aspect of the story is implied only in this portion of the myth, as Deucalion and Pyrrha are actually not the sole survivors of this segment of the worldwide disaster.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Those details, however, would not be pertinent to your question since the migrants are not from the newly created desert region, nor is their movement a result of the desertification aspect of the story; rather it is on account of the Flood.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nonnus' *Dionysiaka* includes Indians in this desertification story, and Arabia features with some prominence in the same work. This implies that the sun-chariot-ride of doom is meant to account for desert regions all the way from Libya to Aithiopia [Ethiopia] (the latter of which was Phaethon's homeland) to Arabia and India (both Arabia and India often being considered to have been part of &quot;Aithiopia&quot; at different points in Greco-Roman thought).    " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15453" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4647" RevisionGUID="51495b71-4930-4c8f-9470-9b4bdf2ea90e" CreationDate="2018-03-30T11:55:41.463" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved formatting." Text="Many cultures have a [flood myth][1]; one explanation is that these were real, localised floods during the end of the [last ice age][2], which were passed down through prehistoric oral traditions and myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Likewise, there were other kinds of dramatic climate and environmental changes. During the Neolithic, what's now the Sahara desert was a [savannah supporting human populations][3]. These inhabitants would have experienced the desertification of the area and would have had to migrate to survive.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The [Saharan and Arabia regions'] transition to today's arid climate was not gradual, but occurred in two specific episodes. The first, which was less severe, occurred between 6,700 and 5,500 years ago. The second, which was brutal, lasted from 4,000 to 3,600 years ago. Summer temperatures increased sharply, and precipitation decreased, according to carbon-14 dating. This event devastated ancient civilizations and their socio-economic systems.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Science Daily](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/07/990712080500.htm)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are these events reflected in any myths? Are there any myths depicting desertification, and possibly a mass migration out of a desert?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_glacial_period&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_Subpluvial" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15454" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4660" RevisionGUID="de075789-f34e-47c1-bad6-e14323152475" CreationDate="2018-03-30T13:02:54.970" UserId="1241" Text="**What are the special powers of a unicorn's horn?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Many stories of unicorns refer to the magical properties of their horns, a claim first made by a Greek physician named [Ctesias][1] nearly 2,000 years ago. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The first mention of the therapeutic properties of unicorn’s horn is thought to have been by Ctesias, a Greek physician from Cnidus, who flourished in the fifth century BC. He believed the unicorn was an Indian wild ass that had a horn growing from its forehead. Drinking cups made from this horn could neutralise poison and afford protection against convulsions and epilepsy. In the middle ages it was used to cure plague, fevers and bites from serpents and mad dogs. It was even said that poisoned wounds could be cured merely by holding a piece of the horn close to them. Surely we cannot fail to be impressed when we read in ‘Doctors and Doctors’ by Graham Everitt that the unicorn was: “ … perfectly conscious of the sanitary virtues which resided in its nasal protruberance, and would dip its horn in the water to purify and sweeten it ere it would drink.” - [The Use of Unicorn Horn in Medicine][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unicorn are mentioned in the Prophecies of Catherine Emmerich.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Unicorns still exist and herd together. I know of a piece of the&#xD;&#xA;horn of one of these animals which is for sick beasts what blessed&#xD;&#xA;objects are for men.&quot; - [Prophecies of Anne Catherine Emmerich 5][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And what about Harry Potter's unicorn?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Harry Potter's world, the unicorn is a magical horse whose single horn is used in potions and whose blood can revive someone who is &quot;an inch from death.&quot; Ancient Greek and Roman scholars also believed that crushed unicorn horn could cure many illnesses – although the unicorns they imagined were not just stark white, but also red and black. The myth of the unicorn resurfaced in European medieval tales, which stated that drinking from the horn would protect from poison. - [The Real Roots of 7 Magical Beasts From Harry Potter][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The power of the unicorn resides in its' horn!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the book Mythical Monsters by Charles Gould, a 6th century merchant/historian is quoted about the power of the unicorn which he had learned about on a trip to Ethiopia. He wrote, “It is impossible for this ferocious beast to be taken alive; and that all its strength lies in its horn. When it finds itself pursued and in danger of capture, it throws itself from a precipice, and turns so aptly in falling, that it receives all the shock upon the horn, and so escapes safe and sound.” - [What is the Power of a Unicorn’s Horn?][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ctesias&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.pharmaceutical-journal.com/news-and-analysis/features/the-use-of-unicorn-horn-in-medicine/20013625.article&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://propheciesii.blogspot.ca/2005/10/prophecies-of-anne-catherine-emmerich_04.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.livescience.com/11196-real-roots-7-magical-beasts-harry-potter.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://cultofunicorn.com/what-is-the-power-of-a-unicorns-horn/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15458" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3289" RevisionGUID="530b2cca-2cf9-4304-9cd0-037b8ed6613c" CreationDate="2018-03-31T11:48:33.553" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="15459" PostHistoryTypeId="36" PostId="4662" RevisionGUID="3a6ffcc0-9119-4959-871e-09332c4b0c68" CreationDate="2018-03-31T21:42:46.590" UserId="-1" Comment="from https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/45437/whats-the-difference-between-a-giant-and-a-nephilim" />
  <row Id="15460" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4662" RevisionGUID="7f31c2ed-cfb7-4006-a2a9-98ce2ea622e6" CreationDate="2018-03-31T20:55:27.867" UserDisplayName="Angie Dzeastera" Text="![enter image description here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/xirxu.jpg)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This picture above is a giant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15461" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4662" RevisionGUID="7f31c2ed-cfb7-4006-a2a9-98ce2ea622e6" CreationDate="2018-03-31T20:55:27.867" UserDisplayName="Angie Dzeastera" Text="What's the difference between a giant and a nephilim" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15462" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4662" RevisionGUID="7f31c2ed-cfb7-4006-a2a9-98ce2ea622e6" CreationDate="2018-03-31T20:55:27.867" UserDisplayName="Angie Dzeastera" Text="|untagged|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15463" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4651" RevisionGUID="71c22a80-92d3-413c-827e-46802a284d65" CreationDate="2018-04-01T08:30:15.527" UserId="4561" Comment="spelling, added link to reference" Text="There appear to be many American tribes which have similar views but the question is really much more complicated. It should not be assumed that all languages have gender, that gender implies sex, or that the moon or the sun at different occasions is the same entity, etc. etc. A classic 10 page paper by Claude Lévi-Strauss *The Sex of the Sun and Moon* ([Structural anthropology v.2][1] c.1963) has treated the question in a most enlightening way.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sometimes in one myth to the other in the same group the sun and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; moon are  two women or two men (p.219)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://archive.org/details/structuralanthro00lv" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15464" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4651" RevisionGUID="71c22a80-92d3-413c-827e-46802a284d65" CreationDate="2018-04-01T08:30:15.527" Comment="Proposed by 4561 approved by 4142 edit id of 1602" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15465" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4663" RevisionGUID="e8d665d1-ccf6-45f5-b6a6-23b550dac383" CreationDate="2018-04-01T11:50:22.430" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="On April Fools' Day, 1 April, it's the custom in several cultures to play practical jokes and to spread hoax stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where and when did this custom originate?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15466" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4663" RevisionGUID="e8d665d1-ccf6-45f5-b6a6-23b550dac383" CreationDate="2018-04-01T11:50:22.430" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="What are the origins of April Fools' Day?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15467" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4663" RevisionGUID="e8d665d1-ccf6-45f5-b6a6-23b550dac383" CreationDate="2018-04-01T11:50:22.430" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="|folklore|calendar-dates|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15468" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4664" RevisionGUID="7371c532-01b0-4886-bcf3-9104aca91b3c" CreationDate="2018-04-01T11:56:16.803" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="I have come across descriptions of an April Fools' Day tradition in Britain, Ireland, Poland and Scandinavia. But it is not true to say it is western-wide because it is hardly known for example in Spain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In what cultures is the tradition observed? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15469" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4664" RevisionGUID="7371c532-01b0-4886-bcf3-9104aca91b3c" CreationDate="2018-04-01T11:56:16.803" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="Which current cultures have April Fools' Day on 1 April?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15470" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4664" RevisionGUID="7371c532-01b0-4886-bcf3-9104aca91b3c" CreationDate="2018-04-01T11:56:16.803" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="|folklore|calendar-dates|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15471" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4665" RevisionGUID="8bdf54f9-355c-489b-847a-c8209c64d7b6" CreationDate="2018-04-01T12:26:48.243" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="You may be interested in the [Blue Rose][1] group of symbolist painters in Moscow in 1906-1908. They took their name from the novel fragment *Heinrich von Ofterdingen* (1800) by the German poet Novalis. The novel contains the symbol of the &quot;[blue flower][2]&quot; (in German, *Blaue Blume*) that became inspirational for the Romantic movement, symbolising love, hope, beauty, the unreachable.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Rose_(art_group)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_flower" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15472" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="4662" RevisionGUID="6618fb88-59b1-4a90-8cb2-e4102923b2d6" CreationDate="2018-04-01T15:24:18.580" UserId="1317" Comment="Add tag specifying the question's subject " Text="|giants|hebrew|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15473" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4662" RevisionGUID="6618fb88-59b1-4a90-8cb2-e4102923b2d6" CreationDate="2018-04-01T15:24:18.580" Comment="Proposed by 1317 approved by 201, 183 edit id of 1603" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15475" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="977" RevisionGUID="3332f40a-f520-41b0-bf0c-28daa52a6544" CreationDate="2018-04-01T16:11:33.443" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|origins|mythohistory|calendar-dates|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15476" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1149" RevisionGUID="0a2ad8b6-6842-4c06-990e-2a09174fc883" CreationDate="2018-04-01T16:11:59.047" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="edited tags" Text="|roman|calendar-dates|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15477" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3085" RevisionGUID="6fdfc0ea-836c-4c36-87e9-bf755d7a02d9" CreationDate="2018-04-01T16:12:43.140" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="edited tags" Text="|comparative|calendar-dates|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15478" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3056" RevisionGUID="951ec403-cd9d-4d78-bc1c-cb9b02a00cab" CreationDate="2018-04-01T16:12:58.473" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="edited tags" Text="|traditions|rituals|calendar-dates|halloween|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15479" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2128" RevisionGUID="d12a0ec9-f4f3-4415-93c1-545c7f2af954" CreationDate="2018-04-01T16:13:55.147" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="edited tags" Text="|origins|traditions|christmas|calendar-dates|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15480" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1292" RevisionGUID="6acbf93f-e97d-4896-ab85-a802fcb946a9" CreationDate="2018-04-01T16:14:24.343" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="added 2 characters in body; edited tags" Text="I flew to Crete on New Year's Eve, and the flight crew offered all of us a pomegranate and instructed us to break it open at midnight.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What's the story there? How is the pomegranate connected with celebrating the New Year?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15481" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1292" RevisionGUID="6acbf93f-e97d-4896-ab85-a802fcb946a9" CreationDate="2018-04-01T16:14:24.343" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="added 2 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|greek|traditions|calendar-dates|plants|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15482" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4659" RevisionGUID="d23f25a8-e95f-44ea-a3b5-fdb92bb21484" CreationDate="2018-04-01T17:32:07.253" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="Yes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Greco-Roman mythology contains a story precisely about the region to which you refer. It so happens that this desertification narrative, which accounts for cold deserts as well as hot ones, is part of the Greco-Roman Flood myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Phaethon, the son of the Sun-Titan Helios and the Oceanid Klymene [Clymene], after being taunted by the accusation that he is a bastard, sets off to prove his paternity. After Helios swears to give him whatever he wants, Phaethon begs his father to let him drive his car, the fiery sun-chariot, across the sky for a day. Unable to convince him to make an alternative request, Helios hands the chariot over, and the universe is launched into cataclysm.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unable to control the white-hot steeds pulling the chariot, Phaethon loses control of the vehicle, driving off the daily track and up too high into the sky. This creates the frozen regions at the edges of the world: the icy deserts. Angie Briese's Greek Gods and Goddesses website renders an interesting summary thereof:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Still, there are traces of Phaethon’s ride. The ends of the earth are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; still covered with icecaps, and mountains still rumble, trying to spit&#xD;&#xA;&gt; out the fire started in their bellies by the diving sun.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While the formation of cold deserts might be somewhat of a looser modern interpretation of the myth, the ancient poet Ovid quite undoubtedly refers to the origin of the Sahara in Book 2 of the *Metamorphoses*. In this sprawling epic, Phaethon also drives the sun-chariot too close to the Earth, and in so doing he reduces entire cities to dust and ashes, inadvertently annihilating whole nations after, essentially, setting the world on fire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Every river and spring that doesn't burn now evaporates and the entire sea turns into a desert as well. The seven mouths of the Nile River &quot;gaped dusty&quot;,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The wide seas shrink and, where ocean lay,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; A wilderness of dry sand spread;   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; New peaks and ranges rise, long covered by the deep,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And multiply the scattered islands of the Cyclades.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The fishes dive, the dolphins dare not leap  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Their curving course through the familiar air,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And lifeless seals float supine on the waves;   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Even Nereus, fathoms down, in his dark caves,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; With Doris and her daughters, felt the fire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Poseidon himself huddles under whichever water remains because the sweltering air outside it burns with such unbearable intensity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After the earth-goddess Gaia prays to Zeus for help against the raging fire, the king of the gods actually worsens the situation by zapping Phaethon out of the sky with a lightning-blast. This scatters the chariot, horses and charioteer all over the cosmos. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The chariot, crashing into Libya, ensures that the damage to the ground there is permanent, while the horses fall into the sea and Phaethon's corpse ends up in the Eridanos [Eridanus] River in Europe, where it smoulders for centuries thereafter, thus producing a set of pungent hot springs thereat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To save the land from complete incineration, but also as an excuse to execute his side scheme to wipe out the human race, Zeus floods the Earth. The mass migration aspect of the story is implied only in this portion of the myth, as Deukalion [Deucalion] and Pyrrha are actually not the sole survivors of this segment of the worldwide disaster.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Those details, however, would not be pertinent to your question since the migrants are not from the newly-formed desert region, nor is their movement a result of the desertification aspect of the story; rather it is on account of the Flood.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nonnus' *Dionysiaka* includes Indians in this desertification story, and Arabia features with some prominence in the same work. This implies that the sun-chariot-ride of doom is meant to account for desert regions all the way from Libya to Aithiopia [Ethiopia] (the latter of which is Phaethon's homeland) to Arabia and India (both Arabia and India often being considered to have been part of &quot;Aithiopia&quot; at different points in Greco-Roman thought).    " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15483" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4666" RevisionGUID="1d424333-3da4-4419-8ea9-78096cc5b2fb" CreationDate="2018-04-01T17:55:22.960" UserId="4919" Text="The hung Odin and the crucified Jesus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The god who dies but resurrects, is an often-re-appearing legend in many religions. Amongst the deities that die and then come back to life are: Horus, Mithra, Dionysius and Odin. Horus and Dionysius are also, for sure, crucified. Apart from the sacrificial death itself, there also is a thorough description that Horus, Mithra and Dionysius have been born the 25th of December. All of them also have twelve disciples and they create miracles. On a shrine dedicated to Mithra it is written “You have saved us through your shed blood”. This shrine is nowadays situated beneath the Sancta Prisca church in Rome.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Parts of these mythological stories also fit quite well to the Germanic god Odin, or Wotan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Midwinter Blót was held to honor Odin around the time of Winter Solstice, which in the old days occurred on December 25th. Odin has twelve lower ranked gods under him, and one of them (Loki) is a traitor. Odin is hung upon the tree of Yggdrasil for three days, according to Havamal. After his death, Odin gets more power than before it. In the Christian tradition, Jesus has increased his powers after he died and resurrected after three days. Crucifixion, which was a common way to execute slaves, thieves and traitors in the ancient Mediterranean world, has not been practiced in the Germanic territories, and hanging has instead been seen as a dishonoring way to die. Executions with guillotine or sword have been seen as a more honoring way to die rather than hanging, all the way into our modern times. Both Odin and Jesus get stabbed with spears during their sacrificial deaths. Odin was hung upon a tree, and Jesus was hung upon a cross made out of wood. According to some Christian beliefs, that cross was made out of a tree that Adam, the first man, had planted. Horus, but also several other Egyptian gods, are depicted holding a hieroglyph known as “the Ankh”. That symbol is very similar to the cross that the Christians are using, and both symbols mean life and resurrection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odin was not born of a virgin, since the Eddas are mentioning that he had both a father and a mother, Búri and Bestla. It can though be said that Bore, the father of Búri was born when he got licked out of a block of ice by the cow Audhumbla.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Experts in religion have mentioned that Odin is similar to the god Mithra, the main savior deity of the late ancient world, who also has twelve disciples, all of whom are represented by the twelve signs of the Zodiac. But it looks like the idea of the god that dies and resurrects is around 5000 years old, if you go all the way back to the myth of Horus. Odin’s most ecstatic aspect is pretty similar to the description of the Greek god Dionysius. Both Mithra and Odin were celebrated at the Spring Equinox, and the Christians celebrate Easter at spring as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other words, it is more than likely that the Christians took over an elder myth and blended it into their own belief system. The Jews were strongly influenced by the Egyptians, and monotheism was grounded in Egypt. The first Christians were most likely Jews who were inspired by the pagan world’s ideas about salvation, and thus added those ideas into their own belief system. The pagan teachings about salvation did not claim to be the only way to salvation, and thus accepted other religions. The idea that everyone must think in the same way and fight for the same belief system, did not exist amongst the polytheistic religions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both Mithra and Dionysius were celebrated with mystery plays, and also in partially secret societies. It is thus believable that the first Christians believed in a mythological savior that was born, lived, created miracles and then got executed, just to resurrect and come back to&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Earth. Later on, when Christianity increased in popularity, some of the Christians started to believe that their savior was a real, physical being, that lived and acted in a recent past. The Christians started to think that the “physical” savior lived and died in the 30-s of our time. Since the Christians converted as many as possible to Christianity, their converts literally believed everything that was taught to them. The monotheistic religions are struggling even nowadays with their so called literalism.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://ideellkulturkamp.wordpress.com" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15484" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4666" RevisionGUID="d348af33-4282-4df2-868e-4c404f23ad82" CreationDate="2018-04-01T20:20:58.303" UserId="967" Comment="please no spam" Text="The hung Odin and the crucified Jesus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The god who dies but resurrects, is an often-re-appearing legend in many religions. Amongst the deities that die and then come back to life are: Horus, Mithra, Dionysius and Odin. Horus and Dionysius are also, for sure, crucified. Apart from the sacrificial death itself, there also is a thorough description that Horus, Mithra and Dionysius have been born the 25th of December. All of them also have twelve disciples and they create miracles. On a shrine dedicated to Mithra it is written “You have saved us through your shed blood”. This shrine is nowadays situated beneath the Sancta Prisca church in Rome.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Parts of these mythological stories also fit quite well to the Germanic god Odin, or Wotan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Midwinter Blót was held to honor Odin around the time of Winter Solstice, which in the old days occurred on December 25th. Odin has twelve lower ranked gods under him, and one of them (Loki) is a traitor. Odin is hung upon the tree of Yggdrasil for three days, according to Havamal. After his death, Odin gets more power than before it. In the Christian tradition, Jesus has increased his powers after he died and resurrected after three days. Crucifixion, which was a common way to execute slaves, thieves and traitors in the ancient Mediterranean world, has not been practiced in the Germanic territories, and hanging has instead been seen as a dishonoring way to die. Executions with guillotine or sword have been seen as a more honoring way to die rather than hanging, all the way into our modern times. Both Odin and Jesus get stabbed with spears during their sacrificial deaths. Odin was hung upon a tree, and Jesus was hung upon a cross made out of wood. According to some Christian beliefs, that cross was made out of a tree that Adam, the first man, had planted. Horus, but also several other Egyptian gods, are depicted holding a hieroglyph known as “the Ankh”. That symbol is very similar to the cross that the Christians are using, and both symbols mean life and resurrection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odin was not born of a virgin, since the Eddas are mentioning that he had both a father and a mother, Búri and Bestla. It can though be said that Bore, the father of Búri was born when he got licked out of a block of ice by the cow Audhumbla.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Experts in religion have mentioned that Odin is similar to the god Mithra, the main savior deity of the late ancient world, who also has twelve disciples, all of whom are represented by the twelve signs of the Zodiac. But it looks like the idea of the god that dies and resurrects is around 5000 years old, if you go all the way back to the myth of Horus. Odin’s most ecstatic aspect is pretty similar to the description of the Greek god Dionysius. Both Mithra and Odin were celebrated at the Spring Equinox, and the Christians celebrate Easter at spring as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other words, it is more than likely that the Christians took over an elder myth and blended it into their own belief system. The Jews were strongly influenced by the Egyptians, and monotheism was grounded in Egypt. The first Christians were most likely Jews who were inspired by the pagan world’s ideas about salvation, and thus added those ideas into their own belief system. The pagan teachings about salvation did not claim to be the only way to salvation, and thus accepted other religions. The idea that everyone must think in the same way and fight for the same belief system, did not exist amongst the polytheistic religions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both Mithra and Dionysius were celebrated with mystery plays, and also in partially secret societies. It is thus believable that the first Christians believed in a mythological savior that was born, lived, created miracles and then got executed, just to resurrect and come back to&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Earth. Later on, when Christianity increased in popularity, some of the Christians started to believe that their savior was a real, physical being, that lived and acted in a recent past. The Christians started to think that the “physical” savior lived and died in the 30-s of our time. Since the Christians converted as many as possible to Christianity, their converts literally believed everything that was taught to them. The monotheistic religions are struggling even nowadays with their so called literalism." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15485" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4667" RevisionGUID="dd9a9f49-7658-47f3-812f-a18659f233c8" CreationDate="2018-04-01T21:21:17.800" UserId="4525" Text="Why did Aphrodite have to marry Hephaistos, when Ares was the obvious choice?&#xD;&#xA;As I understand it, the reason for the marriage to Hephaistos, was because Aphrodites' beauty caused conflict. Wouldn't it make more sense to give her to the powerful Ares? So that whoever would try to get his hands on her, would be crushed by Ares. They were lovers anyways, so why wasn't Ares chosen as her husband?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15486" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4667" RevisionGUID="dd9a9f49-7658-47f3-812f-a18659f233c8" CreationDate="2018-04-01T21:21:17.800" UserId="4525" Text="Why wouldn't Zeus give Aphrodite to Ares when he was the obvious choice?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15487" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4667" RevisionGUID="dd9a9f49-7658-47f3-812f-a18659f233c8" CreationDate="2018-04-01T21:21:17.800" UserId="4525" Text="|greek|aphrodite|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15488" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3500" RevisionGUID="f1180281-5eae-4bb0-b0a5-6070378e1bf8" CreationDate="2018-04-01T21:22:27.297" UserId="-1" Comment="Reduced subjectivity" Text="In the Irish legend, did Aoife ultimately win or lose the duel with Cu Chulainn? Is it true that Cu Chualainn fell in love with Aoife?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15489" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3500" RevisionGUID="f1180281-5eae-4bb0-b0a5-6070378e1bf8" CreationDate="2018-04-01T21:22:27.297" Comment="Proposed by anonymous approved by 2774, 1241 edit id of 1601" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15490" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4668" RevisionGUID="d03571b7-eb4d-4ceb-9bf4-3e439383ee99" CreationDate="2018-04-01T22:49:09.970" UserId="1241" Text="Of all places Malta is the best! Many other countries &quot;celebrate&quot; April Fool's Day, but none like Malta!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story of **[“April Fools' Day”][1]** is one of a certain curiosity indeed! It is known to the French as a **“Poisson d'Avril”**. To understand how this tradition started, one has to understand two things: the change of the calendar in 1582;  story of The “April Fools' Day” is one of a certain curiosity indeed! It is known to the French as a “Poisson d'Avril”. To understand how this tradition started, one has to understand two things: the change of the calendar in 1582; and how the people of the 17th century saw and did things. Here are a number of points to help see how the foolish day started:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Each country was free to choose the first day of any month for its own specific New Year.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The French used Easter Sunday as their start of the calendar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Most countries used the Feast of the Annunciation, March 25, as the start of their civic calendar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - On December 20, 1564, King Charles IX of France decreed that January 1 would be the start of the New Year. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Pope Gregory XIII reformed the calendar in 1582, suppressing 10 days out of the calendar year and making New Year's Day on January 1. Other countries were not obliged to accept this reform.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - England maintained New Year's Day of March 25 until 1752.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When King Charles of France moved the first day of the year to January 1, it was not immediately implemented everywhere. Not all towns and villages knew about this decree, and some simply did not believe it. The French of Charles’ reform years would make fun of these countries’ people with various jokes. Thus, the “poisson d'Avril” was created. Remember that the fish is a symbol of Lent and is found on Catholic calendars everywhere. When Pope Gregory's reform came into affect, it was immediately accepted in France. As a result, the English were still in Lent when France was celebrating Easter. The “Poisson d'Avril” slowly became April Fools' Day, with the English as the recipients of the practical jokes for not accepting the reform. April 1 is the [octave day][2] of the Annunciation. In the past, major feasts were celebrated for eight days. This is still common in many areas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**April Fool’s Day** is a [national holiday in Malta][3], a country that is 98% Catholic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_Fools%27_Day&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octave_(liturgy)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://expatsmalta.com/public-and-national-holidays-in-malta/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15491" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4668" RevisionGUID="52e5dc50-621d-4fa7-9855-dfbe5ff13e2c" CreationDate="2018-04-01T22:54:18.773" UserId="1241" Comment="deleted 232 characters in body" Text="Of all places Malta is the best! Many other countries &quot;celebrate&quot; April Fool's Day, but none like Malta!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story of **[“April Fools' Day”][1]** is one of a certain curiosity indeed! It is known to the French as a **“Poisson d'Avril”**.  To understand how this tradition started, one has to understand two things: the change of the calendar in 1582; and how the people of the 17th century saw and did things. Here are a number of points to help see how the foolish day started:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Each country was free to choose the first day of any month for its own specific New Year.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The French used Easter Sunday as their start of the calendar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Most countries used the Feast of the Annunciation, March 25, as the start of their civic calendar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - On December 20, 1564, King Charles IX of France decreed that January 1 would be the start of the New Year. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Pope Gregory XIII reformed the calendar in 1582, suppressing 10 days out of the calendar year and making New Year's Day on January 1. Other countries were not obliged to accept this reform.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - England maintained New Year's Day of March 25 until 1752.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When King Charles of France moved the first day of the year to January 1, it was not immediately implemented everywhere. Not all towns and villages knew about this decree, and some simply did not believe it. The French of Charles’ reform years would make fun of these countries’ people with various jokes. Thus, the “poisson d'Avril” was created. Remember that the fish is a symbol of Lent and is found on Catholic calendars everywhere. When Pope Gregory's reform came into affect, it was immediately accepted in France. As a result, the English were still in Lent when France was celebrating Easter. The “Poisson d'Avril” slowly became April Fools' Day, with the English as the recipients of the practical jokes for not accepting the reform. April 1 is the [octave day][2] of the Annunciation. In the past, major feasts were celebrated for eight days. This is still common in many areas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**April Fool’s Day** is a [national holiday in Malta][3], a country that is 98% Catholic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_Fools%27_Day&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octave_(liturgy)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://expatsmalta.com/public-and-national-holidays-in-malta/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15492" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4668" RevisionGUID="87a00080-86d1-436d-86d2-e178bba2df81" CreationDate="2018-04-02T09:57:53.723" UserId="201" Comment="edited body" Text="Of all places Malta is the best! Many other countries &quot;celebrate&quot; April Fool's Day, but none like Malta!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story of **[“April Fools' Day”][1]** is one of a certain curiosity indeed! It is known to the French as a **“Poisson d'Avril”**.  To understand how this tradition started, one has to understand two things: the change of the calendar in 1582; and how the people of the 17th century saw and did things. Here are a number of points to help see how the foolish day started:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Each country was free to choose the first day of any month for its own specific New Year.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The French used Easter Sunday as their start of the calendar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Most countries used the Feast of the Annunciation, March 25, as the start of their civic calendar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - On December 20, 1564, King Charles IX of France decreed that January 1 would be the start of the New Year. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Pope Gregory XIII reformed the calendar in 1582, suppressing 10 days out of the calendar year and making New Year's Day on January 1. Other countries were not obliged to accept this reform.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - England maintained New Year's Day of March 25 until 1752.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When King Charles of France moved the first day of the year to January 1, it was not immediately implemented everywhere. Not all towns and villages knew about this decree, and some simply did not believe it. The French of Charles’ reform years would make fun of these countries’ people with various jokes. Thus, the “poisson d'Avril” was created. Remember that the fish is a symbol of Lent and is found on Catholic calendars everywhere. When Pope Gregory's reform came into effect, it was immediately accepted in France. As a result, the English were still in Lent when France was celebrating Easter. The “Poisson d'Avril” slowly became April Fools' Day, with the English as the recipients of the practical jokes for not accepting the reform. April 1 is the [octave day][2] of the Annunciation. In the past, major feasts were celebrated for eight days. This is still common in many areas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**April Fool’s Day** is a [national holiday in Malta][3], a country that is 98% Catholic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_Fools%27_Day&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octave_(liturgy)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://expatsmalta.com/public-and-national-holidays-in-malta/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15493" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4668" RevisionGUID="55856a8a-6067-4cdb-bd09-9ee3ecf893f0" CreationDate="2018-04-02T11:25:28.713" UserId="1241" Comment="added 36 characters in body" Text="Of all places Malta is the best! Many other countries &quot;celebrate&quot; April Fool's Day, but none like Malta!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story of **[“April Fools' Day”][1]** is one of a certain curiosity indeed! It is known to the French as a **“Poisson d'Avril”**.  To understand how this tradition started, one has to understand two things: the change of the calendar in 1582; and how the people of the 17th century saw and did things. Here are a number of points to help see how the foolish day started:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Each country was free to choose the first day of any month for its own specific New Year.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The French used Easter Sunday as their start of the calendar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Most countries used the Feast of the Annunciation, March 25, as the start of their civic calendar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - On December 20, 1564, King Charles IX of France decreed that January 1 would be the start of the New Year. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Pope Gregory XIII reformed the calendar in 1582, suppressing 10 days out of the calendar year and making New Year's Day on January 1. Other countries were not obliged to accept this reform.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - England maintained New Year's Day of March 25 until 1752.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When King Charles of France moved the first day of the year to January 1, it was not immediately implemented everywhere. Not all towns and villages knew about this decree, and some simply did not believe it. The French of Charles’ reform years would make fun of these countries’ people with various jokes. Thus, the “poisson d'Avril” was created. Remember that the fish is a symbol of Lent and is found on Catholic calendars everywhere. When Pope Gregory's reform came into effect, it was immediately accepted in France. As a result, the English were still in Lent when France was celebrating Easter. The “Poisson d'Avril” slowly became April Fools' Day, with the English as the recipients of the practical jokes for not accepting the reform. April 1 is the [octave day][2] of the Annunciation (England's historical New Year's Day). In the past, major feasts were celebrated for eight days. This is still common in many areas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**April Fool’s Day** is a [national holiday in Malta][3], a country that is 98% Catholic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_Fools%27_Day&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octave_(liturgy)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://expatsmalta.com/public-and-national-holidays-in-malta/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15494" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4669" RevisionGUID="b87285d7-9791-4e0e-a202-3d1821e63fd3" CreationDate="2018-04-02T15:29:50.460" UserId="4864" Text="Did he link his description with myth of Perseus? Could we imagine how it looks like ?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15495" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4669" RevisionGUID="b87285d7-9791-4e0e-a202-3d1821e63fd3" CreationDate="2018-04-02T15:29:50.460" UserId="4864" Text="How did Homer describe Mycenae?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15496" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4669" RevisionGUID="b87285d7-9791-4e0e-a202-3d1821e63fd3" CreationDate="2018-04-02T15:29:50.460" UserId="4864" Text="|greek|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15498" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4670" RevisionGUID="54145aa5-86d2-444a-8623-4f551b5648ed" CreationDate="2018-04-02T20:59:41.703" UserId="4923" Text=" Prior to the advent of monotheism, multiple gods couldn’t be considered a threat. The commandment given to Moses is that no god should be put before the Judeo Christian god, but with the birth of Christ as the Messiah, a pre-existing shepherd god located within the vicinity where Jesus was said to live caused questions of authenticity to be raised. Early Christian cultists needed to remove all (warranted) doubt from the minds of those they sought to indoctrinate, so Pan was eliminated." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15500" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4671" RevisionGUID="b118e685-e70a-440a-9383-35548a6ae6e4" CreationDate="2018-04-03T01:34:07.790" UserId="4271" Text="So, my grandfather got back from vacation yesterday. As we were looking through his pictures today and explaining them to me (what's he doing/going on...), we came to the part with the Aztec Pyramids. He talked a little about what he learn, such as: the Aztec word for thank you (don't remember it), Aztec's were five feet tall average, they were on their hands and knees going up the steps, stopping to pray at each one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But the fact that made me wonder the most about was why would you thank the person/priest that was to cut your heart out?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15501" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4671" RevisionGUID="b118e685-e70a-440a-9383-35548a6ae6e4" CreationDate="2018-04-03T01:34:07.790" UserId="4271" Text="Why thank the person who is cutting out your heart?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15502" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4671" RevisionGUID="b118e685-e70a-440a-9383-35548a6ae6e4" CreationDate="2018-04-03T01:34:07.790" UserId="4271" Text="|aztec|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15503" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4672" RevisionGUID="bc5c74fe-e7f9-41b1-a20f-3ef067fe0c8f" CreationDate="2018-04-03T08:02:04.817" UserId="2682" Text="**In a Word, Yes**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yes, in Greek mythology, deities would fairly often assume the forms of other deities. The instances are certainly not as numerous as the stories in which the gods take on the shapes of humans, beasts or other non-divine objects, and they (examples of a certain god appearing as another one, i.e.) almost all occur in Nonnus' *Dionysiaka* [*Dionysiaca*]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And yes, there are some instances in which the stories clearly do limit the ability in some way. There is no story in which the form assumed somehow grants its bearer the same powers or capabilities as the individual s\he is impersonating, at least not beyond him/her projecting the mere façade of possessing those powers, which is, after all, in line with the whole point thereof. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And indeed, for Nonnus, the primary (and, in most cases, exclusive) function of this sort of metamorphosis is impersonation. As is the case in other mythographers, the metamorphoses are always in pursuit of short-term goals, whether the deity in view happens to be impersonating another deity or a mortal entity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The mechanics thereof are never described in enough detail for a definitive conclusion to be reached on this aspect of the issue, but a few stories imply that the transformations are essentially impermanent, whether it is because the impersonators are averse to bearing false appearances for protracted time-durations or because they lack the ability to do so.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Physics for Marine Divinities**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The clearest such indication of this is in the manner in which the Nereid Thetis and two of the Old Men of the Sea, namely Nereus and Proteus, are characterised. These three sea deities are each described as being in a state of habitual metamorphosis of a rather strange kind, even for mythical Greco-Roman characters. They were usually sought out for their prophetic powers. Typically some sort of nymph would reveal to a mortal hero seeking information from one of the divinities that he the hero would have to capture the god, whereupon he would be forced to engage in a wrestling-match against the deity. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The deity would then transform him\herself into all manner of scary stuff like fearsome wild beasts, a torrent of water and even fire. If the mortal managed to hold on to the divinity until s\he had exhausted all his/her wild transformations, he would be considered the winner, the prize being an interview therewith. In the case of Peleus he was fighting to win Thetis's hand in marriage, in which venture he succeeded. Later on Menelaus managed to extract information from Proteus by employing the prescribed strategy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thetis and Proteus are each said to have become ravening beasts and fiery flames in their contests against these men. To me the most remarkable thing about the contests is not that Peleus and Menelaus won—extraordinary feats, to be sure—rather it is that they weren't mauled to pieces or burned to death in the course of the fights, nor indeed is there any indication that they were thereafter hideously maimed with injuries sustained from the deadly (or only *seemingly* deadly?) wrestling-matches. Moreover, how does someone hold on, tightly or otherwise, to a stream of water?!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even for a fantasy story, the only way that this is logical, as far as I can tell, is that either these transformations are completely illusory (the deities are *not* in fact actually becoming snakes, lions, huge trees, or water or fire), or they *are* actually becoming these different things, albeit in an undoubtedly harmless fashion, either deliberately on the deity's part or because some law of nature is automatically protecting the mortal from being wounded through this process. (Alternatively, I suppose, the mortal might be getting magically healed at the end of these ordeals.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**It Won't Last Forever**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then there is the impermanence to which I was referring: Why don't these deities simply select one form in particular, say, the deadliest or most terrifying one, and stick to that? The implication is that they are not too heavily invested in winning at all (there is no story in which the deity wins, as it happens) and that it is merely a test of the mortal's mettle. Either that and/or they simply do not have the capacity to maintain a single feigned form for more than a few moments or, perhaps, hours. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A very similar phenomenon occurs in the stories about the Oceanid Metis and the goddess Nemesis attempting to ward off the advances of Zeus. They each assume various disguises but to no avail. To be fair, though, Zeus is notoriously relentless, and the maintenance of one form is shown to be no guarantee of escaping or overpowering him, such as it goes with the Titaness Asteria who simply becames a quail and can only get away from her would-be ravisher by being changed thereafter, permanently, into an island.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nemesis is, on the other hand, according to Fragment 8 of the Homeric *Kypria*, joined to Zeus (her own father in this version) &quot;by harsh violence&quot; in spite of her attempt to escape him by assuming the form of a fish as well as sundry &quot;dread cretaures&quot; of the dry land, and fleeing all the way to the ends of the earth, &quot;for shame and indignation vexed her heart.&quot; In Apollodorus' *Bibliotheka*, after she becomes a goose, Zeus becomes a swan and thus has his way with her. At any rate the king of the gods impregnates her with Helen, who is hatched from the egg that she lays in her bird form.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In an Orphic story about the origin of Persephone, she is the child of the Titaness Rhea by her own son Zeus. After Rhea has threatened Zeus in the form of a dragon, he too changes into a dragon and rapes her, forming some sort of mystical indissoluble knot in his tussle with her. Demeter is similarly raped by her own brother Poseidon when she attempts to disguise herself as a mare and he becomes a stallion. All these examples bear out an overtone of the ineffectiveness, to go along with the impermanence, of these metamorphoses.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the other hand, whereas all the preceding examples involve failure on the impersonator's part, when a deity takes on the form of another deity, s\he is invariably successful in the deception s\he wishes to practise or in the similar objective that s\he sets out to achieve. There is only one exception to this, regarding which see the last section below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Venus as Circe**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of all the following examples, only two do not occur in the *Dionysiaka*, and the first of them is technically not even Greek. In the *Argonautica* by the Roman poet Valerius Flaccus, Juno (the Roman Hera) wishes the Thessalian prince Jason (*`Iason`* in Greek) to succeed in the deadly tasks set for him by the Colchian king Aeetes, whose daughter Medea is a very powerful witch. Juno recruits Venus (the Roman Aphrodite) to cause Medea to fall in love with Jason so that she might be compelled to ensure his victory. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Maxwell Ashby Armfield's &quot;Medea and the Dragon&quot;][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In order to bolster her influence over Medea, Venus appears to the Colchian princess in person but disguised as Medea's aunt, Aeetes' sister Circe (*Kirke* in Greek), who is an even more powerful witch. Incidentally Circe is also an immortal goddess (and as such she is referred to in Homer's *Odyssey*, Strabo's *Geographia* and Ovid's *Metamorphoses*). In the form of this goddess-witch, Venus pushes Medea to betray her father and help Jason. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Valerius Flaccus says that Venus gives unto Medea violent passion for Jason by clasping &quot;the girl in her embrace,&quot; and &#xD;&#xA;&gt; imprinting kisses that drive to frenzy... inspiring love mingled with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hatred  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(hatred because Medea despises the notion of betraying her father for the sake of a man she doesn't even know). This implies that Venus is using her *own* &quot;powers&quot; as the goddess of love and that the only thing she has borrowed from the formidable divine witch is her appearance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Poseidon as Enipeus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the most enigmatic examples is a story which Nonnus does not narrate but alludes to twice at the beginning (Book 1) and towards the end (Book 42) of his epic *Dionysiaka*. This is the tale of how Pelias (the king who sent Iason to Colchis) and Neleus were conceived. The Thessalian princess Tyro was in love with the local river Enipeus, who according to Homer's *Odyssey* was the most beautiful river on Earth, &quot;to whose running waters,&quot; says Apollodorus, &quot;she would often hasten to lament. Poseidon, taking the form of Enipeus, lay with her, and she secretly gave birth to twin sons,&quot; Pelias and Neleus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Odyssey* this took place at the mouth of the river, where &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A dark wave, mountain-high, curled over them, and hid the god and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mortal girl.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; Presumably Tyro was able to appreciate Poseidon's disguise because she had seen Enipeus's divine form before. Nonnus implies that Poseidon appeared to Tyro as a horned bull, in which semblance river-gods often represent themselves in Greek myths. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Waterfall in Enipeus Gorge][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The characteristics one would expect to be ascribed to appearances of Poseidon and Enipeus, both being gods of water and fertility, are so similar as to make it quite difficult to apprehend which differences between them Tyro might have recognised.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ovid, in his *Metamorphoses*, has it that Poseidon impersonated Enipeus on another occasion, this time in order to consort with a relative of Tyro called Iphimedeia, who happened to be Poseidon's own granddaughter, and who bore him the massive twin giants Otos [Otus] and Ephialtes, famously known as the Aloadai [Aloadae, or Aloads].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Zeus as Artemis (*or as Apollon** [Apollo]***)** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Three times (in Books 2, 33 &amp; 36) Nonnus mentions the story of how Zeus disguised himself as Artemis in order to beguile this goddess's virgin hunting-companion Princess Kallisto [Callisto] of Pelasgia, who was Zeus's own great-granddaughter. Kallisto became by Zeus the mother of Arkas [Arcas], who when he grew up became king of Pelasgia and changed the kingdom's name to Arkadia [Arcadia]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Diane de Versailles][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Book 2 of Ovid's *Metamorphoses* recounts Kallisto's encounter with Zeus in some detail but it is narrated ambiguously enough that it is seems open to interpretation whether Zeus maintained his disguise during the rape or if he resumed his true form for the act. The most graphic portion of the scene is just a couple of sentences (between Lines 430 &amp; 440) saying:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But when his ardent love was known to her, she struggled to escape&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from his embrace. But how could she, a tender maiden, resist almighty&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jove {*= Zeus*}?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even if the god had reduced his &quot;power&quot; so that it simulated only that of Artemis, presumably she would still be much stronger than the mortal Kallisto. According to Apollodorus (in *Bibliotheka* 3.8.2), &quot;others say&quot; that Zeus masqueraded as Artemis's twin brother Apollon rather than as Artemis.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Zeus as Haides** [Hades] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Orphic Hymn 70 to Melinoe, Zeus disguises himself as Persephone's husband, his own brother Haides, and impregnates her with the frightful Underworld goddess Melinoe. Apart from the example from Valerius Flaccus, this is the only other one of these stories which, curiously, does not appear in Nonnus. In fact Melinoe does not seem to be attested anywhere else.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Nike as Leto**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Dionysiaka* 2, the cosmic hundred-headed, two-hundred-armed giant Typhoeus attacks Heaven, and Zeus rises to the challenge of defeating him. The night before the final battle between Zeus and Typhoeus, the winged Titaness Nike, who is the personification of victory, disguises herself as another Titaness, namely the goddess Leto, who in Hesiod's *Theogony* is the last in Zeus's series of six wives before he settles down with Hera. Leto is also the mother by Zeus of Apollon and Artemis. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nike assumes this form in order to encourage Zeus to ante up for the imminent fight. Presumably Leto is usually especially soothing for Zeus to listen to when the going gets tough(?). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nike is quite low in rank as a goddess but from the description of her and her siblings, she sounds like she would one of the mightiest beings in the universe, and thus why it would be so useful for them (Nike and her siblings, i.e.) to be Zeus's royal bodyguard. Nike's brother Kratos [Cratus] and sister Bia are literally Might and Violence themselves. It is difficult to evaluate who is &quot;mightier,&quot; therefore, between Nike and Leto, not that it seems to make much of a difference in this scenario since all that Nike does as Leto is talk to Zeus before going back off-screen.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Eros as Seilenos** [Silenus]     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Dionysiaka* 11, a young Satyr named Ampelos [Ampelus], whom Dionysos [Dionysus] has befriended, dies a violent death. As Dionysos mourns him, Eros disguises himself as the elderly god Seilenos, a member of Dionysos' entourage, and attempts to console the young wine-god with a story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Pompeii Silenus][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hermes as Dionysos**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Dionysiaka* 35 begins after a large number of women from Dionysos' retinue, some of whom are called Bakkhantes [Bacchants], have been captured and driven into the stronghold city of King Deriades of India, against whom Dionysos is at war. Over the course of the preceding few books, Hera has organised a scheme causing Dionysos to reel in helpless madness while his army is thrown into disarray.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After many of the women have been killed, Dionysos' half-brother Hermes—who has, since the wine-god's infancy, played guardian to Dionysos—comes to the women's rescue.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;For swift-winged Hermes came in haste from Olympos [Olympus], wearing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a semblance like the face of Bromios [an epithet of Dionysos] and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; summoned the whole company of Bakkhantes in his mystic voice. When the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; women heard the divine *Euion* sounds, they gathered into one place;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the swift-sandalled one brought them from the triple-ways and led the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whole tribe of Mainalides by crooked winding lanes until he was near&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the walls.&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Then furtive Hermeias [Hermes], the warrior by night, with his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; all-charming rod shed refreshing sleep on the unresting eyes of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; guards in order. Suddenly for the Indians there was darkness; for the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; unseen Bakkhantes there was light unexpected. The women made no noise&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as Hermes led them secretly through the city without his wings.&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*Lines 227-239*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hermes then ushers the women out of the city. The &quot;all-charming rod&quot; here is Hermes' famous herald's staff, which has the power to confer sleep upon someone or to take it away. As with Venus becoming Circe in the *Argonautica*, Hermes seems to be using his own powers rather than those of the wine-god, although he avoids using his own ability to fly because he is trying to maintain the illusion for the Bakkhantes and their fellows that their master is the one rescuing them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hera, Potentially, as Themis, Aphrodite and Artemis**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Dionysiaka* 31.118-120, Hera, while instructing her herald Iris to impersonate Nyx, implies that she herself, apparently quite often, assumes the forms of other goddesses, though she fails to supply us with the reason for this habit,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; since I also change my limbs into the aspect of Themis or Kythereia&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [an epithet of Aphrodite] or Artemis when need compels.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nonnus calling Hera &quot;all-seeing&quot; or saying that she has &quot;infallible eyes&quot; seems to be hyperbolic praise, or some form of deliberate irony, since, in the same story which refers to her like that, she allows someone to get past her because he has fooled her with a disguise.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;THE FORM OF A MIGHTIER ONE&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------&#xD;&#xA;**Iris as Ares**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Dionysiaka* 20 Hera sends Iris on &quot;an evil errand&quot; to incite King Lykourgos [Lycurgus] of Arabia to fight against Dionysos. Iris achieves this by replacing &quot;her embroidered saffron robes&quot; with a plumed helmet and bloodied armour, under which she bears the appearance of the war-god Ares. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Ares][5]][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She speaks to the king as though he is a son of Ares, even though in other accounts, as well as in this same one, his father is a mortal named Dryas. There is, however, a Dryas, who would have lived generations later, who is said to have been a son of Ares. Perhaps Nonnus is here conflating the two so that the implication is that Ares is Lykourgos' grandfather. In Line 168, though, Nonnus explicitly says that Lykourgos is a child of Enyalios (an epithet of Ares). In Line 220 Lykourgos is called Hera's grandson (because Ares is Hera's son). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At any rate the conversation been Iris (as Ares) and Lykourgos certainly implies much familiarity between the war-god and the Arabian king, the latter of whom has been sacrificing wayfarers to Ares, in whose honour he affixes the heads, hands and feet of his victims to the gates of his citadel. By all other accounts this Lykourgos is king of the Edones of Thrace.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nothing in the interaction here suggests that Iris takes on Ares' powers, and in fact the detail about her wearing a helmet and some pieces of armour as part of her disguise are an interesting touch of what we might recognise as modern-artistic realism, implying the possibility that a deity could fail at pulling off a convincing impersonation somehow. After the meeting, which involves merely talking, the fake Ares turns into a falcon and takes off. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Iris as Nyx**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Back to *Dionysiaka* 31, where, as aforementioned, Hera has her messenger Iris impersonate Nyx, who is the primaeval personification of night-time. This is done in order to convince Nyx's son Hypnos, the personification and god of sleep, to plunge Zeus into deep slumber so that Hera can harass and devastate her illegitimate stepson Dionysos without Zeus's intervention into her schemes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nonnus copies virtually all the ideas in this sequence from Book 14 of the *Iliad*, wherein Hera herself convinces Hypnos to do the exact same thing to Zeus while she harasses another illegitimate stepson, this time Herakles [Hercules], generations after Dionysos' adventures. Nonnus' innovation here is, incidentally, this thing about an impersonated Nyx being needed to persuade Hypnos to do Hera's bidding.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hera commands Iris to &quot;take the ugly form of Sleep's mother the black-girdled goddess Night; take a false name and become darkness&quot;. In obedience to this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Iris changed her shape, and all unseen she put on the look of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dark Night unrecognisable. She came near to Sleep, weaving guile; and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in his mother's guise uttered her deceitful speech in cajoling&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whispers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Iris then makes an argument for why Nyx is neglected, and in indignation Hypnos swears to do as she asks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Bertel Thorvaldsen's &quot;Night with Her Children Sleep and Death&quot;][6]][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Iliad*, Nyx is feared even by Zeus himself. She is almost as ancient as Phanes is. In this *Dionysiaka* scene, all that Iris does while disguised as her, just like when she impersonates Ares, is talk. On both occasions Iris is masquerading as the parent of the character to whom she is sent to persuade the individual to do something dangerous. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**A Central Theme**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In every one of the above-mentioned examples which Nonus fully narrates (namely of Nike, Eros and Iris, and apart from the one of Hermes appearing as Dionysos), the author's focus is on the chunk of dialogue spoken by the disguised personage, which then invariably spurs to action the character to whom the speech is delivered. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The phenomenon recurs with Venus as Circe in the *Argonautica*; and even in the Hermes-as-Dionysos episode it is still important to Nonnus to mention that Dionysos' &quot;mystic voice&quot; and &quot;sounds&quot; are the means by which the Bakkhantes become convinced of their master's presence among them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;THE MIGHTIEST OF THEM ALL&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------&#xD;&#xA;**Zagreus as Zeus and as Kronos** [Cronus]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Dionysiaka* relates an elaborate account of the conception, life and violent death of the beautiful, monstrous, shape-shifting baby god Zagreus, an Orphic deity who centuries later is reincarnated as Dionysos. Like Dionysos and Herakles, Zagreus is a favourite but illegitimate son of Zeus whom Hera passionately hates and seeks to destroy. Unlike with Dionysos and Herakles, Hera succeeds in effecting Zagreus's fatal doom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Book 6, Hera sends certain of the Titans to do her dirty work for her, and they chop Zagreus to pieces with &quot;an infernal knife&quot;. The elements of the scene are very interesting to the purposes of this Question, concerned with illusion and self-perception, and how these connect to power.     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Titans are able to corner Zagreus by covering their faces with chalk and by showing him a mirror, which seems to be some sort of a big deal because, even though he is just a baby, Zagreus quickly becomes aware that his life is in danger and launches into a series of metamorphoses which by the end prove useless against the onslaught.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zagreus's first instinct is to transform his appearance into that of his own father Zeus and try to scare his attackers off by shaking Zeus' Aigis [Aegis] (or just something that *looks* like the Aigis?) at them. Then he appears as Zeus' father &quot;ancient Kronos, heavy-kneed, and pouring rain.&quot; After those two divine disguises, Zagreus becomes a baby, an adolescent boy, a roaring lion, a wild horse, a snake, a tiger and then a bull.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With the sharp horns of his bull-form, Zagreus attempts to gore the Titans, but then Hera, who is watching from a distance, emits a bellow so loud that it causes the Zagreus-bull to collapse. The bull then gets slaughtered.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the description here it seems that the Titans are not fooled into thinking that Zagreus is actually Kronos, nor are they moved by his impression of Zeus, which seems to have been less formidable that the bull-form which the baby god assumed. Hera seems to have thought that Zagreus could do more damage as a horned beast than as Zeus or Kronos, which is quite revealing!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are a few aspects of this story which, on different levels, set it apart from the other examples. It is Orphic and thus is even weirder than the more mainstream myths: Zagreus is Dionysos but also sort of *not*. The divine shape-shifter character in this case, even though he is a god, is mortal, and the only way that Zeus can think to bring him back is to reincarnate him as yet another son of his own (connecting to striking parallels with a basic trope of Hindu mythology). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Maybe Zagreus was mortal only in beast-form, or he was &quot;in character&quot; so deeply that he actually *became* a bull (one that could die).&#xD;&#xA;Unlike the other shape-shifting deities we've looked into, Zagreus is an infant and perhaps his understanding is merely that of a baby, meaning that he might be less powerful than Zeus and Kronos. Alternately, might Nonnus intend to be asking us, subliminally: What if the kid had ever grown up? He could have been the mightiest of them all(!!)... mayhap?    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Indeed, part of what freaks Hera out about the little one is that Zeus had placed the newborn on his own throne and let him play with his thunderbolts like toys, indicating plans to abdicate in his favour as king of the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The complete narration of Zagreus's life, from birth to death, is contained in a few paragraphs: see [*Dionysiaka* 6.155-228](http://www.theoi.com/Text/NonnusDionysiaca6.html).         &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/f6qqN.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/tuIkH.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/7uHWQ.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/iawJe.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/9Os8D.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/GEjaO.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15504" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4672" RevisionGUID="51438af8-0eae-458d-9a04-e4bf4c064aae" CreationDate="2018-04-03T16:28:04.440" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="**In a Word, Yes**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yes, in Greek mythology, deities would fairly often assume the forms of other deities. The instances are certainly not as numerous as the stories in which the gods take on the shapes of humans, beasts or other non-divine objects, and they (examples of a certain god appearing as another one, i.e.) almost all occur in Nonnus' *Dionysiaka* [*Dionysiaca*]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And yes, there are some instances in which the stories clearly do limit the ability in some way. There is no story in which the form assumed somehow grants its bearer the same powers or capabilities as the individual s\he is impersonating, at least not beyond him/her projecting the mere façade of possessing those powers, which is, after all, in line with the whole point thereof. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And indeed, for Nonnus, the primary (and, in most cases, exclusive) function of this sort of metamorphosis is impersonation. As is the case in other mythographers, the metamorphoses are always in pursuit of short-term goals, whether the deity in view happens to be impersonating another deity or a mortal entity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The mechanics thereof are never described in enough detail for a definitive conclusion to be reached on this aspect of the issue, but a few stories imply that the transformations are essentially impermanent, whether it is because the impersonators are averse to bearing false appearances for protracted time-durations or because they lack the ability to do so.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Physics for Marine Divinities**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The clearest such indication of this is in the manner in which the Nereid Thetis and two of the Old Men of the Sea, namely Nereus and Proteus, are characterised. These three sea deities are each described as being in a state of habitual metamorphosis of a rather strange kind, even for mythical Greco-Roman characters. They were usually sought out for their prophetic powers. Typically some sort of nymph would reveal to a mortal hero seeking information from one of the divinities that he the hero would have to capture the god, whereupon he would be forced to engage in a wrestling-match against the deity. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The deity would transform him\herself into all manner of scary stuff like fearsome wild beasts, a torrent of water and even fire. If the mortal managed to hold on to the divinity until s\he had exhausted all his/her wild transformations, he would be considered the winner, the prize being an interview therewith. In the case of Peleus he was fighting to win Thetis's hand in marriage, in which venture he succeeded. Later on Menelaus managed to extract information from Proteus by employing the prescribed strategy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thetis and Proteus are each said to have become ravening beasts and fiery flames in their contests against these men. To me the most remarkable thing about the contests is not that Peleus and Menelaus won—extraordinary feats, to be sure—rather it is that they weren't mauled to pieces or burned to death in the course of the fights, nor indeed is there any indication that they were thereafter hideously maimed with injuries sustained from the deadly (or only *seemingly* deadly?) wrestling-matches. Moreover, how does someone hold on, tightly or otherwise, to a stream of water?!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even for a fantasy story, the only way that this is logical, as far as I can tell, is that either these transformations are completely illusory (the deities are *not* in fact actually becoming snakes, lions, huge trees, or water or fire), or they *are* actually becoming these different things, albeit in an undoubtedly harmless fashion, either deliberately on the deity's part or because some law of nature is automatically protecting the mortal from being wounded through this process. (Alternatively, I suppose, the mortal might be getting magically healed at the end of these ordeals.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**It Won't Last Forever**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then there is the impermanence to which I was referring: Why don't these deities simply select one form in particular, say, the deadliest or most terrifying one, and stick to that? The implication is that they are not too heavily invested in winning at all (there is no story in which the deity wins, as it happens) and that it is merely a test of the mortal's mettle. Either that and/or they simply do not have the capacity to maintain a single feigned form for more than a few moments or, perhaps, hours. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A very similar phenomenon occurs in the stories about the Oceanid Metis and the goddess Nemesis attempting to ward off the advances of Zeus. They each assume various disguises but to no avail. To be fair, though, Zeus is notoriously relentless, and the maintenance of one form is shown to be no guarantee of escaping or overpowering him, such as it goes with the Titaness Asteria who simply becames a quail and can only get away from her would-be ravisher by being changed thereafter, permanently, into an island.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nemesis is, on the other hand, according to Fragment 8 of the Homeric *Kypria*, joined to Zeus (her own father in this version) &quot;by harsh violence&quot; in spite of her attempt to escape him by assuming the form of a fish as well as sundry &quot;dread cretaures&quot; of the dry land, and fleeing all the way to the ends of the earth, &quot;for shame and indignation vexed her heart.&quot; In Apollodorus' *Bibliotheka*, after she becomes a goose, Zeus becomes a swan and thus has his way with her. At any rate the king of the gods impregnates her with Helen, who is hatched from the egg that she lays in her bird form.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In an Orphic story about the origin of Persephone, she is the child of the Titaness Rhea by her own son Zeus. After Rhea has threatened Zeus in the form of a dragon, he too changes into a dragon and rapes her, forming some sort of mystical indissoluble knot in his tussle with her. Demeter is similarly raped by her own brother Poseidon when she attempts to disguise herself as a mare and he becomes a stallion. All these examples bear out an overtone of the ineffectiveness, to go along with the impermanence, of these metamorphoses.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the other hand, whereas all the preceding examples involve failure on the impersonator's part, when a deity takes on the form of another deity, s\he is invariably successful in the deception s\he wishes to practise or in the similar objective that s\he sets out to achieve. There is only one exception to this, regarding which see the last section below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Venus as Circe**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of all the following examples, only two do not occur in the *Dionysiaka*, and the first of them is technically not even Greek. In the *Argonautica* by the Roman poet Valerius Flaccus, Juno (the Roman Hera) wishes the Thessalian prince Jason (*`Iason`* in Greek) to succeed in the deadly tasks set for him by the Colchian king Aeetes, whose daughter Medea is a very powerful witch. Juno recruits Venus (the Roman Aphrodite) to cause Medea to fall in love with Jason so that she might be compelled to ensure his victory. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Maxwell Ashby Armfield's &quot;Medea and the Dragon&quot;][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In order to bolster her influence over Medea, Venus appears to the Colchian princess in person but disguised as Medea's aunt, Aeetes' sister Circe (*Kirke* in Greek), who is an even more powerful witch. Incidentally Circe is also an immortal goddess (and as such she is referred to in Homer's *Odyssey*, Strabo's *Geographia* and Ovid's *Metamorphoses*). In the form of this goddess-witch, Venus pushes Medea to betray her father and help Jason. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Valerius Flaccus says that Venus gives unto Medea violent passion for Jason by clasping &quot;the girl in her embrace,&quot; and &#xD;&#xA;&gt; imprinting kisses that drive to frenzy... inspiring love mingled with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hatred  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(hatred because Medea despises the notion of betraying her father for the sake of a man she doesn't even know). This implies that Venus is using her *own* &quot;powers&quot; as the goddess of love and that the only thing she has borrowed from the formidable divine witch is her appearance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Poseidon as Enipeus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the most enigmatic examples is a story which Nonnus does not narrate but alludes to twice at the beginning (Book 1) and towards the end (Book 42) of his epic *Dionysiaka*. This is the tale of how Pelias (the king who sent Iason to Colchis) and Neleus were conceived. The Thessalian princess Tyro was in love with the local river Enipeus, who according to Homer's *Odyssey* was the most beautiful river on Earth, &quot;to whose running waters,&quot; says Apollodorus, &quot;she would often hasten to lament. Poseidon, taking the form of Enipeus, lay with her, and she secretly gave birth to twin sons,&quot; Pelias and Neleus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Odyssey* this took place at the mouth of the river, where &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A dark wave, mountain-high, curled over them, and hid the god and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mortal girl.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; Presumably Tyro was able to appreciate Poseidon's disguise because she had seen Enipeus's divine form before. Nonnus implies that Poseidon appeared to Tyro as a horned bull, in which semblance river-gods often represent themselves in Greek myths. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Waterfall in Enipeus Gorge][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The characteristics one would expect to be ascribed to appearances of Poseidon and Enipeus, both being gods of water and fertility, are so similar as to make it quite difficult to apprehend which differences between them Tyro might have recognised.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ovid, in his *Metamorphoses*, has it that Poseidon impersonated Enipeus on another occasion, this time in order to consort with a relative of Tyro called Iphimedeia, who happened to be Poseidon's own granddaughter, and who bore him the massive twin giants Otos [Otus] and Ephialtes, famously known as the Aloadai [Aloadae, or Aloads].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Zeus as Artemis (*or as Apollon** [Apollo]***)** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Three times (in Books 2, 33 &amp; 36) Nonnus mentions the story of how Zeus disguised himself as Artemis in order to beguile this goddess's virgin hunting-companion Princess Kallisto [Callisto] of Pelasgia, who was Zeus's own great-granddaughter. Kallisto became by Zeus the mother of Arkas [Arcas], who when he grew up became king of Pelasgia and changed the kingdom's name to Arkadia [Arcadia]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Diane de Versailles][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Book 2 of Ovid's *Metamorphoses* recounts Kallisto's encounter with Zeus in some detail but it is narrated ambiguously enough that it is seems open to interpretation whether Zeus maintained his disguise during the rape or if he resumed his true form for the act. The most graphic portion of the scene is just a couple of sentences (between Lines 430 &amp; 440) saying:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But when his ardent love was known to her, she struggled to escape&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from his embrace. But how could she, a tender maiden, resist almighty&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jove {*= Zeus*}?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even if the god had reduced his &quot;power&quot; so that it simulated only that of Artemis, presumably she would still be much stronger than the mortal Kallisto. According to Apollodorus (in *Bibliotheka* 3.8.2), &quot;others say&quot; that Zeus masqueraded as Artemis's twin brother Apollon rather than as Artemis.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Zeus as Haides** [Hades] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Orphic Hymn 70 to Melinoe, Zeus disguises himself as Persephone's husband, his own brother Haides, and impregnates her with the frightful Underworld goddess Melinoe. Apart from the example from Valerius Flaccus, this is the only other one of these stories which, curiously, does not appear in Nonnus. In fact Melinoe does not seem to be attested anywhere else.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Nike as Leto**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Dionysiaka* 2, the cosmic hundred-headed, two-hundred-armed giant Typhoeus attacks Heaven, and Zeus rises to the challenge of defeating him. The night before the final battle between Zeus and Typhoeus, the winged Titaness Nike, who is the personification of victory, disguises herself as another Titaness, namely the goddess Leto, who in Hesiod's *Theogony* is the last in Zeus's series of six wives before he settles down with Hera. Leto is also the mother by Zeus of Apollon and Artemis. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nike assumes this form in order to encourage Zeus to ante up for the imminent fight. Presumably Leto is usually especially soothing for Zeus to listen to when the going gets tough(?). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nike is quite low in rank as a goddess but from the description of her and her siblings, she sounds like she would be one of the mightiest beings in the universe, and thus why it is so useful to have them (Nike and her siblings, i.e.) as Zeus's royal bodyguard. Nike's brother Kratos [Cratus] and sister Bia are literally Might and Violence themselves. It is difficult to evaluate who is &quot;mightier,&quot; therefore, between Nike and Leto, not that it makes much of a difference in this scenario since all that Nike does as Leto is talk to Zeus before going back off-screen.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Eros as Seilenos** [Silenus]     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Dionysiaka* 11, a young Satyr named Ampelos [Ampelus], whom Dionysos [Dionysus] has befriended, dies a violent death. As Dionysos mourns him, Eros disguises himself as Seilenos, the elderly drunk god who is a member of Dionysos' entourage, and he attempts to console the young wine-god with a story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Pompeii Silenus][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hermes as Dionysos**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Dionysiaka* 35 begins after a large number of women from Dionysos' retinue, some of whom are called Bakkhantes [Bacchants], have been captured and driven into the stronghold city of King Deriades of India, against whom Dionysos is at war. Over the course of the preceding few books, Hera has organised a scheme causing Dionysos to reel in helpless madness while his army is thrown into disarray.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After many of the women have been killed, Dionysos' half-brother Hermes—who has, since the wine-god's infancy, played guardian to Dionysos—comes to the women's rescue.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;For swift-winged Hermes came in haste from Olympos [Olympus], wearing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a semblance like the face of Bromios [an epithet of Dionysos] and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; summoned the whole company of Bakkhantes in his mystic voice. When the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; women heard the divine *Euion* sounds, they gathered into one place;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the swift-sandalled one brought them from the triple-ways and led the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whole tribe of Mainalides by crooked winding lanes until he was near&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the walls.&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Then furtive Hermeias [Hermes], the warrior by night, with his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; all-charming rod shed refreshing sleep on the unresting eyes of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; guards in order. Suddenly for the Indians there was darkness; for the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; unseen Bakkhantes there was light unexpected. The women made no noise&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as Hermes led them secretly through the city without his wings.&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*Lines 227-239*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hermes then ushers the women out of the city. The &quot;all-charming rod&quot; here is Hermes' famous herald's staff, which has the power to confer sleep upon someone or to take it away. As with Venus becoming Circe in the *Argonautica*, Hermes seems to be using his own powers rather than those of the wine-god, although he avoids using his own ability to fly because he is trying to maintain the illusion for the Bakkhantes and their fellows that their master is the one rescuing them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hera, Potentially, as Themis, Aphrodite and Artemis**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Dionysiaka* 31.118-120, Hera, while instructing her herald Iris to impersonate Nyx, reveals that she herself, apparently quite often, assumes the forms of other goddesses, though she fails to supply us with the reason for this habit,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; since I also change my limbs into the aspect of Themis or Kythereia&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [an epithet of Aphrodite] or Artemis when need compels.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nonnus calling Hera &quot;all-seeing&quot; or saying that she has &quot;infallible eyes&quot; seems to be hyperbolic praise, or some form of deliberate irony, since, in the same story which refers to her like that, she allows someone to get past her because he has fooled her with a disguise.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;THE FORM OF A MIGHTIER ONE&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------&#xD;&#xA;**Iris as Ares**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Dionysiaka* 20 Hera sends Iris on &quot;an evil errand&quot; to incite King Lykourgos [Lycurgus] of Arabia to fight against Dionysos. Iris achieves this by replacing &quot;her embroidered saffron robes&quot; with a plumed helmet and bloodied armour, under which she bears the appearance of the war-god Ares. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Ares][5]][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She speaks to the king as though he is a son of Ares, even though in other accounts, as well as in this same one, his father is a mortal named Dryas. There is, however, a Dryas, who would have lived generations later, who is said to have been a son of Ares. Perhaps Nonnus is here conflating the two so that the implication is that Ares is Lykourgos' grandfather. In Line 168, though, Nonnus explicitly says that Lykourgos is a child of Enyalios (an epithet of Ares). In Line 220 Lykourgos is called Hera's grandson (because Ares is Hera's son). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At any rate the conversation been Iris (as Ares) and Lykourgos certainly implies much familiarity between the war-god and the Arabian king, the latter of whom has been sacrificing wayfarers to Ares, in whose honour he affixes the heads, hands and feet of his victims to the gates of his citadel. By all other accounts this Lykourgos is king of the Edones of Thrace.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nothing in the interaction here suggests that Iris takes on Ares' powers, and in fact the detail about her wearing a helmet and some pieces of armour as part of her disguise are an interesting touch of what we might recognise as modern-artistic realism, implying the possibility that a deity could fail at pulling off a convincing impersonation somehow. After the meeting, which involves merely talking, the fake Ares turns into a falcon and takes off. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Iris as Nyx**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Back to *Dionysiaka* 31, where, as aforementioned, Hera has her messenger Iris impersonate Nyx, who is the primaeval personification of night-time. This is done in order to convince Nyx's son Hypnos, the personification and god of sleep, to plunge Zeus into deep slumber so that Hera can harass and devastate her illegitimate stepson Dionysos without Zeus's intervention into her schemes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nonnus copies virtually all the ideas in this sequence from Book 14 of the *Iliad*, wherein Hera herself convinces Hypnos to do the exact same thing to Zeus while she harasses another illegitimate stepson, this time Herakles [Hercules], generations after Dionysos' adventures. Nonnus' innovation here is, incidentally, this thing about an impersonated Nyx being needed to persuade Hypnos to do Hera's bidding.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hera commands Iris to &quot;take the ugly form of Sleep's mother the black-girdled goddess Night; take a false name and become darkness&quot;. In obedience to this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Iris changed her shape, and all unseen she put on the look of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dark Night unrecognisable. She came near to Sleep, weaving guile; and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in his mother's guise uttered her deceitful speech in cajoling&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whispers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Iris then makes an argument for why Nyx is neglected, and in indignation Hypnos swears to do as she asks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Bertel Thorvaldsen's &quot;Night with Her Children Sleep and Death&quot;][6]][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Iliad*, Nyx is feared even by Zeus himself. She is almost as ancient as Phanes is. In this *Dionysiaka* scene, all that Iris does while disguised as her, just like when she impersonates Ares, is talk. On both occasions Iris is masquerading as the parent of the character to whom she is sent to persuade the individual to do something dangerous. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**A Central Theme**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In every one of the above-mentioned examples which Nonus fully narrates (namely of Nike, Eros and Iris, and apart from the one of Hermes appearing as Dionysos), the author's focus is on the chunk of dialogue spoken by the disguised personage, which then invariably spurs to action the character to whom the speech is delivered. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The phenomenon recurs with Venus as Circe in the *Argonautica*; and even in the Hermes-as-Dionysos episode it is still important to Nonnus to mention that Dionysos' &quot;mystic voice&quot; and &quot;sounds&quot; are the means by which the Bakkhantes become convinced of their master's presence among them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;THE MIGHTIEST OF THEM ALL&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------&#xD;&#xA;**Zagreus as Zeus and as Kronos** [Cronus]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Dionysiaka* relates an elaborate account of the conception, life and violent death of the beautiful, monstrous, shape-shifting baby god Zagreus, an Orphic deity who centuries later is reincarnated as Dionysos. Like Dionysos and Herakles, Zagreus is a favourite but illegitimate son of Zeus whom Hera passionately hates and seeks to destroy. Unlike with Dionysos and Herakles, Hera succeeds in effecting Zagreus's fatal doom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Book 6, Hera sends certain of the Titans to do her dirty work for her, and they chop Zagreus to pieces with &quot;an infernal knife&quot;. The elements of the scene are very interesting to the purposes of this Question, concerned with illusion and self-perception, and how these connect to power.     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Titans are able to corner Zagreus by covering their faces with chalk and by showing him a mirror, which seems to be some sort of a big deal because, even though he is just a baby, Zagreus quickly becomes aware that his life is in danger and launches into a series of metamorphoses which by the end prove useless against the onslaught.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zagreus's first instinct is to transform his appearance into that of his own father Zeus and try to scare his attackers off by shaking Zeus' Aigis [Aegis] (or just something that *looks* like the Aigis?) at them. Then he appears as Zeus' father &quot;ancient Kronos, heavy-kneed, and pouring rain.&quot; After those two divine disguises, Zagreus becomes a baby, an adolescent boy, a roaring lion, a wild horse, a snake, a tiger and then a bull.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With the sharp horns of his bull-form, Zagreus attempts to gore the Titans, but then Hera, who is watching from a distance, emits a bellow so loud that it causes the Zagreus-bull to collapse. The bull then gets slaughtered.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Titans seem not to be fooled into thinking that Zagreus is actually Kronos, nor are they moved by his impression of Zeus, which appears to have been less formidable than the bull-form which the baby god assumed. Hera seems to have thought that Zagreus could do more damage as a horned beast than as Zeus or Kronos, which is quite revealing!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are a few aspects of this story which, on different levels, set it apart from the other examples. It is Orphic and thus is even weirder than the more mainstream myths: Zagreus is Dionysos but also sort of *not*. The divine shape-shifter character in this case, even though he is a god, is mortal, and the only way that Zeus can think to bring him back is to reincarnate him as yet another son of his own (connecting to striking parallels with a basic trope of Hindu mythology). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Maybe Zagreus was mortal only in beast-form, or he was &quot;in character&quot; so deeply that he actually *became* a bull (one that could die).&#xD;&#xA;Unlike the other shape-shifting deities we've looked into, Zagreus is an infant and perhaps his understanding is merely that of a baby, meaning that he might be less powerful than Zeus and Kronos. Alternately, might Nonnus intend to be asking us, subliminally: What if the kid was given a chance to grow up? He could have been the mightiest of them all(!!)... mayhap?    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Indeed, part of what freaks Hera out about the little one is that Zeus had placed the newborn on his own throne and let him play with his thunderbolts like toys, indicating plans to abdicate in his favour as king of the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The complete narration of Zagreus's life, from birth to death, is contained in a few paragraphs: see [*Dionysiaka* 6.155-228](http://www.theoi.com/Text/NonnusDionysiaca6.html).         &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/f6qqN.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/tuIkH.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/7uHWQ.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/iawJe.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/9Os8D.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/GEjaO.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15506" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4673" RevisionGUID="60169590-ae86-45b3-b76b-db49d434b8b8" CreationDate="2018-04-03T18:07:48.600" UserId="4271" Text="I've noticed a number of creatures being related to the Greek deities. Echidna, the mother of monsters, parents are sea gods by the oldest account. This account for he kids being related to deities. But what about the monsters that aren't children of Echidna. Are they related to other gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15507" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4673" RevisionGUID="60169590-ae86-45b3-b76b-db49d434b8b8" CreationDate="2018-04-03T18:07:48.600" UserId="4271" Text="Are all monsters children of the gods/titans/primordials?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15508" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4673" RevisionGUID="60169590-ae86-45b3-b76b-db49d434b8b8" CreationDate="2018-04-03T18:07:48.600" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|monsters|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15509" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4674" RevisionGUID="e97cd3b4-762d-4999-9b6f-2b834b01b4de" CreationDate="2018-04-03T18:23:02.110" UserId="4271" Text="A while ago, I read something along this phrase: could be the same (filler name) that raped Hera. I do not know where I read this and have not been able to find it again. The only lead I got was with Zeus. Not what I'm looking for. Who raped Hera and what is the story?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15510" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4674" RevisionGUID="e97cd3b4-762d-4999-9b6f-2b834b01b4de" CreationDate="2018-04-03T18:23:02.110" UserId="4271" Text="What is the story of the Rape of Hera?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15511" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4674" RevisionGUID="e97cd3b4-762d-4999-9b6f-2b834b01b4de" CreationDate="2018-04-03T18:23:02.110" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|hera|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15512" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4675" RevisionGUID="c6a66f51-c7bf-4b0b-996a-e83ff5795ce4" CreationDate="2018-04-03T20:55:49.057" UserId="2892" Text="This falls under the idea that it is an honor to be a sacrifice for the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On film that may be worth looking at is Pasolini's 1969 film [Medea][1]. The film opens with Medea's royal family sacrificing her brother so the crops will grow.  As I recall, the brother is smiling.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A good contrast is the 1973 film [The Wickerman][2], which is partly an adaptation of Euripides' [The Bacchae][3]. Warning: Spoilers&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;! In the Wickerman, the sacrificial victim must be willing, so the entire plot revolves around tricking the protagonist into ritually accepting the role. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt; *(Traditionally, criminals and prisoners were the victims, and not willing;)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Euripides wrote several plays about human sacrifice.  [Iphigenia at Aulis][4] may shed some light:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  **Achilles:** ...how I grieve to think I shall not save your life by doing battle with the Danaids. Reflect, I say; a dreadful ill is death.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;**Iphigenia:**&#xD;&#xA;This I say, without regard to anyone. Enough that the daughter of Tyndareus is causing wars and bloodshed by her beauty; then be not slain yourself, stranger, nor seek to slay another on my account; but let me, if I can, save Hellas. &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Iphigenia at Aulis, 1414][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and later&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Iphigenia:** *(to her mother)* I cannot let you shed a tear. *(to the Chorus)* May it be yours, maidens, to hymn in joyous strains Artemis, the child of Zeus, for my hard lot; and let the order for a solemn hush go forth to the Danaids. Begin the sacrifice with the baskets, let the fire blaze for the purifying meal of sprinkling, and my father pace from left to right about the altar; for I come to bestow on Hellas safety crowned with victory. &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [ibid. 1468][6]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and finally&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Iphigenia:**: Lead me away, the destroyer of Ilium's town and the Phrygians; give me wreaths to cast about me; bring them here; here are my tresses to crown; bring lustral water too. [1480] Dance to Artemis, queen Artemis the blest, around her shrine and altar; for by the blood of my sacrifice I will blot out the oracle, [1485] if it must be. O mother, lady revered! I will, not give you my tears; [1490] for at the holy rites it is not fitting. Sing with me, maidens, sing the praises of Artemis, whose temple faces Chalcis, [1495] where angry spearmen madly chafe, here in the narrow havens of Aulis, because of me. O Pelasgia, land of my birth, and Mycenae, my home! &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [ibid. 1475][7]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of course, Euripides being Euripides, can't resist taking a jab at the gods:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Chorus Leader:** You play a noble part, maiden; but the whims of Fate and the goddess are [diseased][8]. &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [ibid. 1402][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the idea at least is mythologically documented in this play, specifically the nobility of sacrificing oneself for society.  This has other roots in the Trojan War Cycle, for instance, Achilles' choice (long life or glory? If he chose life, the Danaans would not have prevailed.) You later see this idea in Sophocles' [Antigone][9] and the [death of Socrates][10].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of validation of this idea in the Aztec tradition in particular, I'd suggest looking to the accounts of the early conquistadors.  Cortez and Bernal Díaz del Castillo seem to have written about this subject. [See: [Human sacrifice in Aztec culture][11].  *PS--If anyone is aware of this source material online, please link!*]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medea_(1969_film)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wicker_Man&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bacchae&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iphigenia_in_Aulis&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0108%3Acard%3D1402&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0108%3Acard%3D1433&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0108%3Acard%3D1475&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dnose%2Fw&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigone_(Sophocles_play)&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates#Death_of_Socrates&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice_in_Aztec_culture" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15513" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4675" RevisionGUID="88cf3062-3666-47ca-adb3-b70e644da54b" CreationDate="2018-04-03T21:06:47.907" UserId="2892" Comment="added 33 characters in body" Text="This falls under the idea that it is an honor to be a sacrifice for the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On film that may be worth looking at is Pasolini's 1969 film [Medea][1]. The film opens with Medea's royal family sacrificing her brother so the crops will grow.  As I recall, the brother is smiling.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A good contrast is the 1973 film [The Wickerman][2], which is partly an adaptation of Euripides' [The Bacchae][3]. Warning: Spoilers!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;! In the Wickerman, the sacrificial victim must be willing, so the entire plot revolves around tricking the protagonist into ritually accepting the role. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt; *(Traditionally, criminals and prisoners were the victims burned alive in wickermen, decidedly not willing;)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Euripides wrote several plays about human sacrifice.  [Iphigenia at Aulis][4] may shed some light:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  **Achilles:** ...how I grieve to think I shall not save your life by doing battle with the Danaids. Reflect, I say; a dreadful ill is death.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;**Iphigenia:**&#xD;&#xA;This I say, without regard to anyone. Enough that the daughter of Tyndareus is causing wars and bloodshed by her beauty; then be not slain yourself, stranger, nor seek to slay another on my account; but let me, if I can, save Hellas. &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Iphigenia at Aulis, 1414][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and later&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Iphigenia:** *(to her mother)* I cannot let you shed a tear. *(to the Chorus)* May it be yours, maidens, to hymn in joyous strains Artemis, the child of Zeus, for my hard lot; and let the order for a solemn hush go forth to the Danaids. Begin the sacrifice with the baskets, let the fire blaze for the purifying meal of sprinkling, and my father pace from left to right about the altar; for I come to bestow on Hellas safety crowned with victory. &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [ibid. 1468][6]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and finally&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Iphigenia:**: Lead me away, the destroyer of Ilium's town and the Phrygians; give me wreaths to cast about me; bring them here; here are my tresses to crown; bring lustral water too. [1480] Dance to Artemis, queen Artemis the blest, around her shrine and altar; for by the blood of my sacrifice I will blot out the oracle, [1485] if it must be. O mother, lady revered! I will, not give you my tears; [1490] for at the holy rites it is not fitting. Sing with me, maidens, sing the praises of Artemis, whose temple faces Chalcis, [1495] where angry spearmen madly chafe, here in the narrow havens of Aulis, because of me. O Pelasgia, land of my birth, and Mycenae, my home! &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [ibid. 1475][7]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of course, Euripides being Euripides, can't resist taking a jab at the gods:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Chorus Leader:** You play a noble part, maiden; but the whims of Fate and the goddess are [diseased][8]. &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [ibid. 1402][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the idea at least is mythologically documented in this play, specifically the nobility of sacrificing oneself for society.  This has other roots in the Trojan War Cycle, for instance, Achilles' choice (long life or glory? If he chose life, the Danaans would not have prevailed.) You later see this idea in Sophocles' [Antigone][9] and the [death of Socrates][10].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of validation of this idea in the Aztec tradition in particular, I'd suggest looking to the accounts of the early conquistadors.  Cortez and Bernal Díaz del Castillo seem to have written about this subject. [See: [Human sacrifice in Aztec culture][11].  *PS--If anyone is aware of this source material online, please link!*]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medea_(1969_film)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wicker_Man&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bacchae&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iphigenia_in_Aulis&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0108%3Acard%3D1402&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0108%3Acard%3D1433&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0108%3Acard%3D1475&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dnose%2Fw&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigone_(Sophocles_play)&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates#Death_of_Socrates&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice_in_Aztec_culture" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15514" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4676" RevisionGUID="a21e0c4d-87ea-4fe3-a2f8-4a228609e6c2" CreationDate="2018-04-04T09:22:38.933" UserId="57" Text="The giant [Porphyrion][1] attempted to rape Hera during the [Gigantomachy][2]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But in the battle Porphyrion attacked Hercules and Hera. Nevertheless Zeus inspired him with lust for Hera, and when he tore her robes and would have forced her, she called for help, and Zeus smote him with a thunderbolt, and Hercules shot him dead with an arrow.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Source: [Apollod. 1.6.2][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I could be wrong, but I think this is the only surviving story where someone tries to rape Hera. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porphyrion&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giants_(Greek_mythology)#The_Gigantomachy&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0548.tlg001.perseus-eng1:1.6.2" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15515" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4677" RevisionGUID="1740be05-8d2d-4ab0-8ef1-7a7c1a2c4f91" CreationDate="2018-04-04T10:21:25.133" UserId="57" Text="Homer mentions the giant king Eurymedon (&quot;ruling far and wide&quot;) in the *Odyssey* (Book 7.56): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Nausithous at the first was born from the earth-shaker Poseidon and Periboea, the comeliest of women, youngest daughter of great-hearted Eurymedon, who once was king over the insolent Giants. But he brought destruction on his froward people, and was himself destroyed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Homer. The Odyssey with an English Translation by A.T. Murray, PH.D. in two volumes. Cambridge, MA., Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann, Ltd. 1919.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is this a reference to the Gigantomachy? Do we know anything else about this king of the giants? Why is he to blame for the destruction of his people, and how was he himself destroyed?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15516" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4677" RevisionGUID="1740be05-8d2d-4ab0-8ef1-7a7c1a2c4f91" CreationDate="2018-04-04T10:21:25.133" UserId="57" Text="What is the story of Eurymedon, the giant king who brought destruction on his people?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15517" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4677" RevisionGUID="1740be05-8d2d-4ab0-8ef1-7a7c1a2c4f91" CreationDate="2018-04-04T10:21:25.133" UserId="57" Text="|greek|homer|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15518" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4676" RevisionGUID="584657ee-7507-4c3a-b52e-1a02c268dda7" CreationDate="2018-04-04T12:27:43.060" UserId="57" Comment="added 310 characters in body" Text="[Porphyrion][1], the &quot;greatest of the Giants&quot; according to Apollodorus, attempted to rape Hera during the [Gigantomachy][2]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But in the battle Porphyrion attacked Hercules and Hera. Nevertheless Zeus inspired him with lust for Hera, and when he tore her robes and would have forced her, she called for help, and Zeus smote him with a thunderbolt, and Hercules shot him dead with an arrow.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Source: [Apollod. 1.6.2][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Hellenistic poet [Euphorion][4] also tells a tale of a giant raping Hera. This time, though, the culprit is Eurymedon, an otherwise unknown king of giants mentioned in Book 7 of the *Odyssey*. This story could possibly be a retelling of the Porphyrion tale, or even an attempt by Euphorion to flesh out Homer's story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porphyrion&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giants_(Greek_mythology)#The_Gigantomachy&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0548.tlg001.perseus-eng1:1.6.2&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphorion_of_Chalcis" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15519" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4676" RevisionGUID="1317c033-cfaa-4533-8e04-a756b87a17bf" CreationDate="2018-04-04T13:25:34.647" UserId="57" Comment="edited body" Text="[Porphyrion][1], the &quot;greatest of the Giants&quot; according to Apollodorus, attempted to rape Hera during the [Gigantomachy][2]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But in the battle Porphyrion attacked Hercules and Hera. Nevertheless Zeus inspired him with lust for Hera, and when he tore her robes and would have forced her, she called for help, and Zeus smote him with a thunderbolt, and Hercules shot him dead with an arrow.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Source: [Apollod. 1.6.2][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Hellenistic poet [Euphorion][4] also tells a tale of a giant raping Hera. This time, though, the culprit is Eurymedon, a relatively unknown king of giants mentioned in Book 7 of the *Odyssey*. This story could possibly be a retelling of the Porphyrion tale, or even an attempt by Euphorion to flesh out Homer's story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porphyrion&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giants_(Greek_mythology)#The_Gigantomachy&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0548.tlg001.perseus-eng1:1.6.2&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphorion_of_Chalcis" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15521" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4630" RevisionGUID="508c1d07-ae36-4832-aa09-4faa3c21e2f4" CreationDate="2018-04-04T16:15:33.390" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="Yes, there are several specifically named characters in this role.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aaron Atsma's website The Theoi Project has a page thereon entitled [**Elysion**](http://www.theoi.com/Kosmos/Elysion.html) [Elysium], detailing the geography (or, actually, different geographies according to the variety of writers from diverse periods in ancient Greek mythography) and citizenship of the Mythic Realm (he has a whole series of pages on the different &quot;Mythic Realms&quot; of Greek cosmology) in question. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the most mysterious characters of the mythology is a certain **Lykos** [Lycus]. He was the son of Poseidon by Kelaino [Celaeno], one of the seven Pleiades. The only other thing that we know about him is what Apollodorus tells us when he says in the *Bibliotheka* that Lykos' own father &quot;Poseidon settled&quot; him &quot;in the Islands of the Blessed.&quot; It makes it sounds as though Lykos was still alive when this happened but the reference is brief and tantalisingly vague, mentioning nothing about any heroic adventures or anything else to warrant this special treatment. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(My only guess is that Lykos' parentage is quite similar to that of Hermes, who is rewarded for his extraordinary feat of thievery on the day of his birth by being made into an Olympian god. Lykos is Hermes' cousin both on his father's and mother's sides of the family, Hermes being the son of Zeus by another Pleiad. Other than that there's the probably unhelpful detail that Lykos means &quot;Wolf,&quot; which need not be an indicator of anything particularly wolfish about the dude himself. The Roman writer Hyginus conflates this Lykos with the brother of King Nykteus [Nycteus] of Thebes.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Epitome*, Apollodorus tells us that after his death in the Trojan War, **Akhilleus** [Achilles] was married to the immortal Colchian princess witch **Medeia** [Medea]. In Book 4 of Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautika*, while Akhilleus is still a baby but Medeia is having her adventures with Iason [Jason] and the rest of the Argonauts, Hera prophesies to Akhilleus' mother Thetis that this union will eventually take place.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A writer called Ptolemy Hephaestion, whose collection of alternate myths contains some fascinating story versions and anecdotes, says, however, that on the Islands of the Blessed, Akhilleus was united to **Helen**, the reputedly most beautiful woman in the world, over whom the Trojan War was waged. They even had a son there on the islands. This child of theirs was called Euphorion, named &quot;after the fertility of this land&quot;, and he had wings!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are other characters listed by Atsma as having become inhabitants of the Blessed Islands:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Kadmos [Cadmus] and Harmonia&#xD;&#xA; - Rhadamanthys; and Alkmene [Alcmene] the mother of Herakles [Heracles]&#xD;&#xA; - Orpheus and Eurydike [Eurydice]&#xD;&#xA; - Akhilleus' cousin Aias [Ajax], Akhilleus' son Neoptolemos, and&#xD;&#xA;   Akhilleus' relative Patroklos [Patroclus]&#xD;&#xA; - Aias son of Oileus&#xD;&#xA; - Odysseus' wife Penelope, and their son Telemakhos [Telemachus]&#xD;&#xA; - Antilokhos [Antilochus] son of Nestor&#xD;&#xA; - Diomedes, Iphigeneia, Memnon and Menelaus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Atsma says that his &quot;list is far from exhaustive--any hero who possessed a hero-cult in ancient Greece was presumed to be transferred to Elysion.&quot; The &quot;Elysion&quot; page, typically, has a plethora of quotes from various ancient authors, including Homer, Hesiod, Pindar, Euripides, Aeschylus, Strabo, Diodorus Siculus, etc, several Romans making up part of the list as well. See the linked page for more detail." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15525" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4658" RevisionGUID="e4c8216a-c9f0-4005-bef0-8f563ea3f84e" CreationDate="2018-04-04T16:58:30.107" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; tweaked info" Text="Yes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Perseus vs Medusa**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Before setting off on his mission to go kill the monster Medusa, Perseus received certain special items to help the project along. One of the items was the *Aidos kyne* (or *Aidos kyneēn*), &quot;cap of Hades&quot; or &quot;cap of invisibility&quot; (or &quot;Helm of Darkness,&quot; if you will), which he sorely needed in order to escape Medusa's two triplet Gorgon sisters after he had beheaded her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was either a group of nymphs from the Underworld who gave Perseus the invisibility cap, presumably having been sent by the lord of the nether realm himself, or Perseus received the cap from Hermes, who features as the primary user of this item in a similar manner to that in which, even though the Aegis belongs to Zeus, the Aegis primarily seems to be used by Athena.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact, in his *Poetica Astronomica*, the Roman writer Hyginus seems to suggest that the cap given by Hermes to Perseus was none other than Hermes' own [*petasos*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petasos) [*petasus*], the herald-god's sun-hat which eventually was conceived of as having wings like his sandals did, these sandals also having been lent to Perseus for the Medusa Mission. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyginus understands Hermes' hat as possessing the same invisibility power and says that this is the reason that &quot;the Greeks have called it the helmet of Hades&quot;, because *Hades* means the &quot;Invisible/Unseen One.&quot; Hyginus lodges a complaint in all this by adding that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Perseus did not, as some ignorant people interpret it, wear the helmet&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Orcus {*a Roman name for Hades*} himself, for no educated person&#xD;&#xA;&gt; could believe that.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hermes vs Hippolytus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A few generations after Medusa's demise, the Gigantes (Giants) attacked the gods on Mt Olympus, precipitating a dramatic contest which came to be known as the Gigantomachy. During this confrontation, Apollodorus tells us in the *Bibliotheka*, Hermes squared off against a Giant named Hippolytus, whom the messenger-god managed to vanquish while wearing the *Aidos kyne*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Athena vs Ares**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One generation later, the Trojan War broke out. During this conflict, according to Book 5 of the *Iliad*, Athena briefly became the charioteer of the Greek warrior Diomedes on the battlefield at Troy. Together they attacked Ares but before they charged upon him, Athena donned the cap of Hades &quot;so that mighty Ares should not see her.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Obscuring the Vision**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As Hyginus points out, the name Hades means &quot;Hidden&quot; or &quot;Unseen.&quot; The story about him owning a hat that magically makes its wearer invisible seems to be a bit of wordplay on what makes Hades, Hades. What makes the Unseen One invisible? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Part of the logic in the whole idea of Hades is that he escapes the gaze of mortals (and indeed of most of the gods themselves) because he lives deep under the earth in a world of total darkness in which the rays of the sun are completely alien, where even if one stood right before him, the deity would still be hidden from sight. In a sense, then, the entire nether world *is* the Helm of Darkness encompassing the god Hades. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is significant, to my mind, that after the story in which the Cyclopes make the cap for Hades and give it to him, the king of the dead is never explicitly described as actually wearing the thing. Notice the contrast between this and the gifts presented to Poseidon and Zeus, who are practically hyperactive in *their* use of Trident and thunderbolts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;(The Hundred-Handed Ones, by the way, were not involved in the creation of the cap, nor are they said to have presented it to Hades. This was exclusively an enterprise of the Cyclopes. Same thing with Zeus's thunderbolts and Poseidon's Trident.)&lt;/sub&gt;       " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15526" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4679" RevisionGUID="b249cddf-0877-4ed6-9a42-10ffab81ca64" CreationDate="2018-04-04T16:59:10.383" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="The guardian statues outside London's Guildhall, the building that houses the administration of the Corporation of the City of London, are known as Gog and Magog. Originally they were understood to be of [Gogmagog][2], the giant of Welsh and English folklore, and [Corineus][3], a Trojan warrior, associate of Brutus, and fighter against giants.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Gog and Magog][1] were two entities who appear in the Book of Ezekiel and Jewish eschatology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the connection between Gogmagog the giant and Gog and Magog the entities referenced in the bible? The idea that there is no connection surely seems far-fetched.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gog_and_Magog&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gogmagog_(giant)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corineus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15527" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4679" RevisionGUID="b249cddf-0877-4ed6-9a42-10ffab81ca64" CreationDate="2018-04-04T16:59:10.383" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="What connects the Welsh and English Gogmagog with the Hebrew Gog and Magog?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15528" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4679" RevisionGUID="b249cddf-0877-4ed6-9a42-10ffab81ca64" CreationDate="2018-04-04T16:59:10.383" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="|folklore|welsh|giants|eschatology|jewish|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15529" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4673" RevisionGUID="6478cb63-064a-43c6-bfc4-0c44fef12d83" CreationDate="2018-04-04T17:09:41.443" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; corrected spelling" Text="I've noticed that a number of creatures are related to the Greek deities. By the oldest account, Echidna, the mother of monsters, is the daughter of sea gods. This accounts for her own kids being related to deities. But what about the monsters that aren't children of Echidna? Are they related to other gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15530" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4673" RevisionGUID="6478cb63-064a-43c6-bfc4-0c44fef12d83" CreationDate="2018-04-04T17:09:41.443" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; corrected spelling" Text="Are all monsters children of gods/Titans/primordials?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15531" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4675" RevisionGUID="8d8c643e-4ba1-4ecd-be81-26155211dc43" CreationDate="2018-04-04T17:38:26.530" UserId="2892" Comment="added 152 characters in body" Text="This falls under the idea that it is an honor to be a sacrifice for the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On film that may be worth looking at is Pasolini's 1969 film [Medea][1]. The film opens with Medea's royal family sacrificing her brother so the crops will grow.  As I recall, the brother is smiling.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A good contrast is the 1973 film [The Wickerman][2], which is partly an adaptation of Euripides' [The Bacchae][3]. Warning: Spoilers!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;! In the Wickerman, the sacrificial victim must be willing, so the entire plot revolves around tricking the protagonist into ritually accepting the role. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt; *(Traditionally, criminals and prisoners were the victims burned alive in wickermen, decidedly not willing;)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Euripides wrote several plays about human sacrifice.  [Iphigenia at Aulis][4] may shed some light:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  **Achilles:** ...how I grieve to think I shall not save your life by doing battle with the Danaids. Reflect, I say; a dreadful ill is death.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;**Iphigenia:**&#xD;&#xA;This I say, without regard to anyone. Enough that the daughter of Tyndareus is causing wars and bloodshed by her beauty; then be not slain yourself, stranger, nor seek to slay another on my account; but let me, if I can, save Hellas. &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Iphigenia at Aulis, 1414][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and later&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Iphigenia:** *(to her mother)* I cannot let you shed a tear. *(to the Chorus)* May it be yours, maidens, to hymn in joyous strains Artemis, the child of Zeus, for my hard lot; and let the order for a solemn hush go forth to the Danaids. Begin the sacrifice with the baskets, let the fire blaze for the purifying meal of sprinkling, and my father pace from left to right about the altar; for I come to bestow on Hellas safety crowned with victory. &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [ibid. 1468][6]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and finally&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Iphigenia:**: Lead me away, the destroyer of Ilium's town and the Phrygians; give me wreaths to cast about me; bring them here; here are my tresses to crown; bring lustral water too. [1480] Dance to Artemis, queen Artemis the blest, around her shrine and altar; for by the blood of my sacrifice I will blot out the oracle, [1485] if it must be. O mother, lady revered! I will, not give you my tears; [1490] for at the holy rites it is not fitting. Sing with me, maidens, sing the praises of Artemis, whose temple faces Chalcis, [1495] where angry spearmen madly chafe, here in the narrow havens of Aulis, because of me. O Pelasgia, land of my birth, and Mycenae, my home! &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [ibid. 1475][7]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of course, Euripides being Euripides, can't resist taking a jab at the gods:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Chorus Leader:** You play a noble part, maiden; but the whims of Fate and the goddess are [diseased][8]. &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [ibid. 1402][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the idea at least is mythologically documented in this play, specifically the nobility of sacrificing oneself for society.  This has other roots in the Trojan War Cycle, for instance, Achilles' choice (long life or glory? If he chose life, the Danaans would not have prevailed.) You later see this idea in Sophocles' [Antigone][9] and the [death of Socrates][10].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of validation of this idea in the Aztec tradition in particular, I'd suggest looking to the accounts of the early conquistadors.  Cortez and Bernal Díaz del Castillo seem to have written about this subject. [See: [Human sacrifice in Aztec culture][11].  *PS--If anyone is aware of this source material online, please link!*]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - If you're thanking the person who is cutting out your heart, it would almost certainly be because it is an honor to be a sacrificial victim&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medea_(1969_film)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wicker_Man&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bacchae&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iphigenia_in_Aulis&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0108%3Acard%3D1402&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0108%3Acard%3D1433&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0108%3Acard%3D1475&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dnose%2Fw&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigone_(Sophocles_play)&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates#Death_of_Socrates&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice_in_Aztec_culture" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15532" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4680" RevisionGUID="2d74a8f0-b227-4999-bc67-c18f33dc7dc8" CreationDate="2018-04-04T20:38:47.957" UserId="4926" Text="If Vishnu was the 'Supreme Personality of Godhead', why he had to rape his sincere devotee Vrinda to defeat Jalandhar who was merely a demon who did not achieve any powerful boons ? If Vishnu was God then he could have destroyed Jalandhar just my willing so." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15533" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4680" RevisionGUID="2d74a8f0-b227-4999-bc67-c18f33dc7dc8" CreationDate="2018-04-04T20:38:47.957" UserId="4926" Text="Why did Vishnu rape Vrinda?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15534" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4680" RevisionGUID="2d74a8f0-b227-4999-bc67-c18f33dc7dc8" CreationDate="2018-04-04T20:38:47.957" UserId="4926" Text="|mythical-creatures|hindu|demons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15538" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4682" RevisionGUID="14606543-979b-4c4d-a505-a01acc6536b3" CreationDate="2018-04-04T21:32:15.410" UserId="4271" Text="I once read the Odysseus and Penelope were the grandchildren of two different gods. But I have had no luck finding it again.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One might have been Hermes, although I can't be sure." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15539" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4682" RevisionGUID="14606543-979b-4c4d-a505-a01acc6536b3" CreationDate="2018-04-04T21:32:15.410" UserId="4271" Text="Which gods were Odysseus and Penelope directly descended from?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15540" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4682" RevisionGUID="14606543-979b-4c4d-a505-a01acc6536b3" CreationDate="2018-04-04T21:32:15.410" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|odysseus|parentage|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15541" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4683" RevisionGUID="91583449-a47d-4c58-8c9b-76a8823050c5" CreationDate="2018-04-04T21:53:28.523" UserId="4271" Text="I only know of one Myth in which Athena lost, but there are two other accounts to consider. I talk of Arachne, a mortal that challenged Athena to a competition. In one account, Athena won. In another, it was a tie and Arachne hung herself. In the third account, Arachne won. In all account Arachne was then turned into the first spider. In the first and third, it was her punishment. In the second, it was out of pity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, if you consider a tie a loss, two out of three accounts, Athena lost. But I'm looking for other myths apart from this one where Athena losses." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15542" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4683" RevisionGUID="91583449-a47d-4c58-8c9b-76a8823050c5" CreationDate="2018-04-04T21:53:28.523" UserId="4271" Text="Has Athena, Greek goddess of Wisdom, ever lost?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15543" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4683" RevisionGUID="91583449-a47d-4c58-8c9b-76a8823050c5" CreationDate="2018-04-04T21:53:28.523" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|athena|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15544" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4684" RevisionGUID="25be962a-b27d-4cad-b71a-201bf4ac6a3f" CreationDate="2018-04-04T22:02:46.113" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15545" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4684" RevisionGUID="25be962a-b27d-4cad-b71a-201bf4ac6a3f" CreationDate="2018-04-04T22:02:46.113" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15546" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4685" RevisionGUID="83abcb73-25f0-4d1c-8bae-529354719ab7" CreationDate="2018-04-04T22:02:46.113" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15547" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4685" RevisionGUID="83abcb73-25f0-4d1c-8bae-529354719ab7" CreationDate="2018-04-04T22:02:46.113" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15548" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4680" RevisionGUID="09df975d-977f-4861-b3ad-bd77b0d1e2b6" CreationDate="2018-04-04T22:11:11.220" UserId="4271" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="If Vishnu was the 'Supreme Personality of Godhead', why did he have to rape his sincere devotee Vrinda to defeat Jalandhar who was merely a demon who did not achieve any powerful boons? If Vishnu was God then he could have destroyed Jalandhar just by willing so." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15549" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4686" RevisionGUID="63b55dad-bbe3-4a1c-bb45-a7dcc687b472" CreationDate="2018-04-04T22:47:43.413" UserId="4271" Text="Vishnu was not &quot;God.&quot; He was a god. Hinduism has a variety of labels on what kind of religion it is (i.e. polytheism, monotheism, atheism, non-theism...). But for the most part, more then one being is labeled as a god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Vrinda was married to King Jalandhar. And because she was so devoted to Vishun, Jalandhar became invincible to the point not even Shiva could defeat him. Shiva asked Vishun to find an answer. His solution was to claim Vrinda's chastity, thus resulting in Jalandhar's loss of power. Shiva killed him." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15550" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4687" RevisionGUID="ebd90d57-d713-4730-a1e4-710f45e1173d" CreationDate="2018-04-05T05:52:17.887" UserId="2682" Text="**Ancestors of the Mother of Odysseus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Neither of Odysseus' grandparents was a deity, although the most celebrated ancestral connection between Odysseus and a god is, indeed, his descent from **Hermes**, who was the father of the famous thief Autolycus, the father of Anticleia, the mother of Odysseus. So Hermes was Odysseus' *great*-grandfather. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It then follows, obviously, that Odysseus was also descended from Hermes' father **Zeus** and from Hermes' great-grandparents the Titan deities **Oceanus** and **Tethys**. So the divine descent through Hermes' mother's side of the family would entail:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Gaia** (goddess of the earth) ➜ Oceanus &amp; Tethys ➜ Pleione ➜ Maia ➜ Hermes ➜ Autolycus ➜ Anticleia ➜ Odysseus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Through Anticleia, Odysseus was also descended from the star-god **Eosphorus**, who was the personification of the planet Venus, the dawn star. Through Eosphorus, therefore, Anticleia would also have been a descendant of the dawn-goddess **Eos**, who was Eosphorus' mother. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anticleia's father Autolycus was the son of Hermes by Chione, the daughter of a king called Daedalion, who was a son of Eosphorus. So:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eos ➜ Eosphorus ➜ Daedalion ➜ Chione ➜ Autolycus ➜ Anticleia ➜ Odysseus &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ancestors of the Father of Odysseus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Laertes was the father of Odysseus (although there is a later tradition in which Sisyphus was the father). There are two different versions of Laertes' parentage, in one of which he is the son of Atticans named Cephalus and Procris, both of whom are descended from the fire-god **Hephaestus**, and thus Hephaestus' parents Zeus and **Hera**; as well as the river-gods **Eridanus** and **Cephissus** (and thus these rivers' parents Oceanus and Tethys).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Erichthonius**, who is king of Athens before he becomes a tutelary divinity of the city, is the son of Hephaestus and Gaia from whom Procris and Cephalus are descended.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the other version of Laertes' parentage, he is the son of Arceisius. The most famous version of Arceisius' origin is that he is a son of Zeus. In this version, then, Laertes would be Zeus's grandson, but other accounts have Arceisius as the son of Cephalus and Procris, or of a certain Cillus or Celeus who in turn is the son of Cephalus and Procris.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ancestors of the Mother of Penelope**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no explicit reference to the idea that any of Penelope's grandparents was deity. There are at least four different versions of who Penelope's mother was, her name being Polycaste, Dorodoche, Asterodeia or Periboea. Apollodorus refers to the last of these women as a Naiad, so presumably her father was a river-god. Aaron Atsma conjectures that the relevant water-body would have been the Lacedaemonian river Eurotas, in the region of Periboea's residence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is, though, a more direct connection to divine ancestry with the alternative of Dorodoche, who was the daughter of Ortilochus, son of the river-god **Alpheus**. Telegone, the mother of Ortilochus, was a granddaughter of Hermes, and also a descendant of Zeus, of the Egyptian river Nile (**Neilus**), of the Argive river **Inachus** and of the Oceanid **Melia**.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ancestors of the Father of Penelope**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Icarius of Lacedaemon was the father of Penelope. There are three different versions of his parentage, which sort of overlap. He was the son of Perieres and Gorgophone, or of Oebalus and Bateia, or of Oebalus and Gorgophone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Once again Apollodorus tells us that a certain royal Lacedaemonian woman, this time Bateia, was a Naiad. Once again Atsma speculates that the Eurotas River is the father of this Naiad, though there is no explicit confirmation of this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the version in which Icarius is the son of Oebalus and Gorgophone, he would be a descendant of Zeus on both sides of his family. Gorgophone is a daughter of Perseus son of Zeus, and Oebalus is a great-grandson of Lacedaemon son of Zeus, after whom this region of Peloponnesus was named." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15551" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4687" RevisionGUID="85b96b95-9f9e-4c9e-8ea3-7ece784b3a88" CreationDate="2018-04-05T08:10:01.067" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; added links" Text="**Ancestors of the Mother of Odysseus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Neither of Odysseus' grandparents was a deity, although the most celebrated ancestral connection between Odysseus and a god is, indeed, his descent from **Hermes**, who was the father of the famous thief [Autolycus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autolycus), the father of [Anticleia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anticlea), the mother of Odysseus. So Hermes was Odysseus' *great*-grandfather. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It then follows, obviously, that Odysseus was also descended from Hermes' father **Zeus** and from Hermes' great-grandparents the Titan deities **Oceanus** and **Tethys**. So the divine descent through Hermes' mother's side of the family would entail:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Gaia** (goddess of the earth) ➜ Oceanus &amp; Tethys ➜ Pleione ➜ Maia ➜ Hermes ➜ Autolycus ➜ Anticleia ➜ Odysseus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Through Anticleia, Odysseus was also descended from the star-god [**Eosphorus**](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2686/2682), who was the personification of the planet Venus, the dawn star. Through Eosphorus, therefore, Anticleia would also have been a descendant of the dawn-goddess **Eos**, who was Eosphorus' mother. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anticleia's father Autolycus was the son of Hermes by Chione, the daughter of a king called [Daedalion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daedalion), who was a son of Eosphorus. So:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eos ➜ Eosphorus ➜ Daedalion ➜ Chione ➜ Autolycus ➜ Anticleia ➜ Odysseus &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ancestors of the Father of Odysseus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Laertes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laertes) was the father of Odysseus (although there is a later tradition in which Sisyphus was the father). There are two different versions of Laertes' parentage, in one of which he is the son of Atticans named [Cephalus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cephalus) and [Procris](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procris), both of whom are descended from the fire-god **Hephaestus**, and thus Hephaestus' parents Zeus and **Hera**; as well as the river-gods [**Eridanus**](https://pantheon.org/articles/e/eridanus.html) and [**Cephissus**](https://pantheon.org/articles/c/cephissus.html).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Erichthonius**, who is king of Athens before he becomes a tutelary divinity of the city, is the son of Hephaestus and Gaia from whom Procris and Cephalus are descended.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the other version of Laertes' parentage, he is the son of [Arceisius](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcesius). The most famous version of Arceisius' origin is that he is a son of Zeus. In this version, then, Laertes would be Zeus's grandson, but other accounts have Arceisius as the son of Cephalus and Procris, or of a certain Cillus or Celeus who in turn is the son of Cephalus and Procris.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ancestors of the Mother of Penelope**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no explicit reference to the idea that any of Penelope's grandparents was a deity. There are at least four different versions of who Penelope's mother was, her name being Polycaste, Dorodoche, Asterodeia or Periboea. Apollodorus refers to the last of these women as a Naiad, so presumably her father was a river-god. Aaron Atsma [conjectures](http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NymphePeriboia2.html) that the relevant water-body would have been the Lacedaemonian river Eurotas, in the region of Periboea's residence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is, though, a more direct connection to divine ancestry with the alternative of Dorodoche, who was the daughter of Ortilochus, son of the river-god [**Alpheus**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpheus_(deity)). Telegone, the mother of Ortilochus, was a granddaughter of Hermes, and also a descendant of Zeus, of the Egyptian river Nile ([**Neilus**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nilus_(mythology))), of the Argive river [**Inachus**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inachus) and of the Oceanid [**Melia**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melia_(Oceanid)).   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ancestors of the Father of Penelope**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Icarius](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icarius_of_Sparta) of Lacedaemon was the father of Penelope. There are three different versions of his parentage, which sort of overlap. He was the son of Perieres and Gorgophone, or of Oebalus and Bateia, or of Oebalus and Gorgophone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Once again Apollodorus tells us that a certain royal Lacedaemonian woman, this time Bateia, was a Naiad. Once again Atsma [speculates](http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheBateia.html) that the Eurotas River is the father of this Naiad, though there is no explicit confirmation of this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the version in which Icarius is the son of Oebalus and Gorgophone, he would be a descendant of Zeus on both sides of his family. Gorgophone is a daughter of Perseus son of Zeus, and Oebalus is a great-grandson of [Lacedaemon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacedaemon_(mythology)) son of Zeus, after whom this region of Peloponnesus was named." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15552" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4688" RevisionGUID="a1b9b096-c1e7-4b11-a581-7d393fc7b87b" CreationDate="2018-04-05T08:42:08.610" UserId="2687" Text="In a reworking of the *Rumplestiltskin* folktale, novelist Elizabeth Bunce notes the following: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The anti-Semitic overtones of the Grimm version are deeply disturbing to &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; me&amp;mdash;and should be to any modern audience&amp;mdash;and I have tried&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to steer well clear from them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;*A Curse As Dark As Gold*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There certainly are anti-Semitic Grimm tales, such as &quot;The Jew in the Thorns.&quot; The only thing I can think of that’s possibly relevant in &quot;Rumplestiltskin,&quot; though, is the following portion: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; She first asked, “Is your name Kunz?”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; “No.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Is your name Heinz?”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;“Rumplestiltskin”&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;E.g., perhaps these are stereotypically Jewish names (or Rumplestiltskin itself is?)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the other hand, there are many other possible ways it could invoke stereotypes of Jews, some of which might only be obvious in the original. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Is Rumplestiltskin supposed to be an anti-Semitic caricature?**&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15553" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4688" RevisionGUID="a1b9b096-c1e7-4b11-a581-7d393fc7b87b" CreationDate="2018-04-05T08:42:08.610" UserId="2687" Text="Was Rumplestiltskin intended as a Jewish caricature?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15554" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4688" RevisionGUID="a1b9b096-c1e7-4b11-a581-7d393fc7b87b" CreationDate="2018-04-05T08:42:08.610" UserId="2687" Text="|fairy-tales|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15555" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4689" RevisionGUID="fd4ba6e2-5a70-4918-94ad-14cc7a94787f" CreationDate="2018-04-05T12:35:50.010" UserId="4934" Text="While working on an essay, I came across a book called the &quot;The study of Russian folklore&quot; which mentions encounters between an Amazon Maxsimo and Digenis Akritas and also between Siegfried and a warrior maiden in which the belligerents make love after the battle. Was it consensual sex or rape? Where can I find more information about these encounters?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15556" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4689" RevisionGUID="fd4ba6e2-5a70-4918-94ad-14cc7a94787f" CreationDate="2018-04-05T12:35:50.010" UserId="4934" Text="Encounter between an Amazon and a male warrior" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15557" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4689" RevisionGUID="fd4ba6e2-5a70-4918-94ad-14cc7a94787f" CreationDate="2018-04-05T12:35:50.010" UserId="4934" Text="|myth-identification|amazons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15558" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4668" RevisionGUID="19e07cae-7f4b-43e7-bc64-cf34bb985371" CreationDate="2018-04-05T13:07:58.013" UserId="1241" Comment="added 2043 characters in body" Text="Of all places Malta is the best! Many other countries &quot;celebrate&quot; April Fool's Day, but none like Malta!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story of **[“April Fools' Day”][1]** is one of a certain curiosity indeed! It is known to the French as a **“Poisson d'Avril”**.  To understand how this tradition started, one has to understand two things: the change of the calendar in 1582; and how the people of the 17th century saw and did things. Here are a number of points to help see how the foolish day started:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Each country was free to choose the first day of any month for its own specific New Year.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The French used Easter Sunday as their start of the calendar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Most countries used the Feast of the Annunciation, March 25, as the start of their civic calendar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - On December 20, 1564, King Charles IX of France decreed that January 1 would be the start of the New Year. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Pope Gregory XIII reformed the calendar in 1582, suppressing 10 days out of the calendar year and making New Year's Day on January 1. Other countries were not obliged to accept this reform.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - England maintained New Year's Day of March 25 until 1752.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When King Charles of France moved the first day of the year to January 1, it was not immediately implemented everywhere. Not all towns and villages knew about this decree, and some simply did not believe it. The French of Charles’ reform years would make fun of these countries’ people with various jokes. Thus, the “poisson d'Avril” was created. Remember that the fish is a symbol of Lent and is found on Catholic calendars everywhere. When Pope Gregory's reform came into effect, it was immediately accepted in France. As a result, the English were still in Lent when France was celebrating Easter. The “Poisson d'Avril” slowly became April Fools' Day, with the English as the recipients of the practical jokes for not accepting the reform. April 1 is the [octave day][2] of the Annunciation (England's historical New Year's Day). In the past, major feasts were celebrated for eight days. This is still common in many areas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**April Fool’s Day** is a [traditional holiday in Malta][3], a country that is 98% Catholic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is an example of Malta's April Fools' Day:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Malta Today’s own April Fool’s][4] – an old chestnut perhaps – was the removal of Freedom Day, a Labour Party favourite, from the list of national holidays. 31 March 1979 was the day the lease of the British military forces ran out on the Malta base, five years after Malta became a sovereign republic, and 15 years after it was proclaimed independent (but with the Queen of England as head of state). We said Joseph Muscat would also get rid of Victory Day (8 September), and just to quell fears, we used the URL: ‘Calm down it's only April Fools!’. - [April Fool’s: what the media is ‘reporting’ today][5] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is a little more:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Although April Fool’s Day falls on Easter Sunday this year, there’s no reason not to tickle your funny bone in whatever month you’re visiting Malta or Gozo.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Malta has a thriving comedy scene, with several Maltese stand-up comedians who regularly perform on the island as well as internationally. Add to that the countless comedy shows that are produced throughout the year in different venues, and you’ll have no shortage of laughs whilst in Malta.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Here’s where to catch the best comedy events on offer during your stay on the Maltese islands.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Eden Comedy Club, St Julian’s&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Just a short walk from Radisson Blu Resort in St Julian’s is the Eden Cinema Complex, home to the Eden Comedy Club. Inside the cinema’s multi-purpose theatre, the Club regularly hosts large scale live stand-up comedy nights, featuring top-notch acts from the UK and international comedy circuit, including headlining names such as Jimmy Carr and Omid Djalili. - [Where to Watch Comedy in Malta in Honour of April Fool’s Day][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_Fools%27_Day&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octave_(liturgy)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://expatsmalta.com/public-and-national-holidays-in-malta/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.maltatoday.com.mt/news/national/63630/calm_down_its_only_April_Fools#.WsYdWvbn8dX&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.maltatoday.com.mt/arts/entertainment/63636/april_fools_what_the_media_is_reporting_today#.WsYbwvbn8dV&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://revealmalta.com/culture/watch-comedy-malta-honour-april-fools-day/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15559" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4690" RevisionGUID="fbe3864f-5757-4795-b9d2-796f6dfed0f6" CreationDate="2018-04-05T15:32:59.733" UserId="4271" Text="Before two and a half hours ago, I thought the swastika was only in India and World War II. Then my art teacher put on a video about ancient Greek and Roman mosaics. In this video, I saw what was dubbed &quot;[Ancient Greek Swastica][1].&quot; I thought this an error and did a little research (I later found the link above). In no way is it only in India and World War II.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Wikipedia article][2] on it lists over a score of cultures with their own swastika with their own name to that culture. Among them are: Greek, Roman, Egypt, Native American, Japan, China, Celts, Aztec...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How do they all have their own version of a swastika relatively meaning a variance of the same thing in each?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't see how cross cultural contamination could have happened on this large of a scale. We know the Greeks/Romans knew of the Celts and Egyptians. Japan modeled their language on China's. The Romans traded with China. I can't be sure the Native Americans had contact with the Aztecs, but it is a possibility. And if this is a cross cultural contamination, where did it start?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.dreamstime.com/stock-photo-ancient-greek-swastica-mosaic-found-kos-island-greece-image41782494&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15560" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4690" RevisionGUID="fbe3864f-5757-4795-b9d2-796f6dfed0f6" CreationDate="2018-04-05T15:32:59.733" UserId="4271" Text="How did so many cultures come up with their own swastika?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15561" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4690" RevisionGUID="fbe3864f-5757-4795-b9d2-796f6dfed0f6" CreationDate="2018-04-05T15:32:59.733" UserId="4271" Text="|symbolism|motifs|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15562" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1355" RevisionGUID="8cbc7ed0-b585-4965-b9c1-84e4a6f3a421" CreationDate="2018-04-05T16:28:22.590" UserId="2807" Comment="Fixed small typo in title" Text="Quoting [Theoi][1],&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In one, Ariadne, the daughter of King Minos of Krete, assisted Theseus in his quest to slay the Minotaur, and then fled with him aboard his ship. However, when they landed on the island of Naxos, Theseus abandoned her as she was sleeping.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Well, you don't just abandon a person who saved your life on an island these days.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why? Is it just a characteristic of a selfish man? Was he going anywhere?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/Ariadne.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15563" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1355" RevisionGUID="8cbc7ed0-b585-4965-b9c1-84e4a6f3a421" CreationDate="2018-04-05T16:28:22.590" UserId="2807" Comment="Fixed small typo in title" Text="Why did Theseus betray Ariadne?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15564" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1355" RevisionGUID="8cbc7ed0-b585-4965-b9c1-84e4a6f3a421" CreationDate="2018-04-05T16:28:22.590" Comment="Proposed by 2807 approved by 4271, 2682 edit id of 1605" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15565" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4691" RevisionGUID="b37aa741-1068-459b-bbca-40b4a7180bb7" CreationDate="2018-04-05T16:35:44.770" UserId="4271" Text="Intelligent can mean a number of things, so to simplify, lets limit it to capable of human speech. It is a common quality in movies and books to give dragons the power of human speech, but are such qualities given to any dragons in mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15566" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4691" RevisionGUID="b37aa741-1068-459b-bbca-40b4a7180bb7" CreationDate="2018-04-05T16:35:44.770" UserId="4271" Text="Are dragons intelligent?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15567" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4691" RevisionGUID="b37aa741-1068-459b-bbca-40b4a7180bb7" CreationDate="2018-04-05T16:35:44.770" UserId="4271" Text="|myth-identification|dragons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15568" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="2904" RevisionGUID="bf1ab4d7-ce67-49af-b65f-3b97824ff478" CreationDate="2018-04-05T16:41:57.280" UserId="4271" Comment="64" />
  <row Id="15569" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4692" RevisionGUID="7729941c-5b47-4e41-ac04-c5fdc4079fa9" CreationDate="2018-04-05T17:27:14.650" UserId="666" Text="Fafnir, in the [Völsunga saga][1], is a dwarf that slew his father and stole a fabulous treasure, including the cursed ring Andvaranaut. Fafnir then turned into a dragon. Fafnirs brother Regin trains the young hero Sigurd, and eventually goes with him to slay Fafnir. As Fafnir is dying, he speaks to Sigurd, and tells him that his gold and Regin will kill him. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In another myth, we have the dragon [Níðhöggr][2], who is gnawing on the roots of Yggdrasil, the world tree. Snorri's *Edda* as well as *Grímnismál* tells of the squirell [Ratatosk][3], who runs up and down the three bearing words between Níðhöggr and the Eagle sitting in the tree's top, meaning that Níðhöggr must be capable of some sort of communication&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lsunga_sag&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%AD%C3%B0h%C3%B6ggr&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratatoskr" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15570" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4693" RevisionGUID="d42f97aa-82a7-4d4e-94b8-c37092d96edb" CreationDate="2018-04-05T17:34:08.007" UserId="1177" Text="Heinz is short for Heinrich and Kunz is a (now rare) abbreviation of Konrad, all typically Germanic names. There is nothing Jewish about them, and certainly not about Rumplestiltskin. It is very difficult to see what is supposed to be anti-Semitic about this story." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15572" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4695" RevisionGUID="5ee75688-1d6f-4a0b-b319-965a2b84961f" CreationDate="2018-04-05T20:02:00.980" UserId="2682" Text="Almost all of the monsters of Greek myth are clearly said to have been children of deities or at least were quite closely related to the gods, whether the divinities in view were Titanic, primaeval or otherwise.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Good Old Regular Wildlife**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also an assortment of monstrous beasts, quite popular especially in later mythography, which appear to have been thought of simply as naturally occurring animals like any other ordinary critters such as dogs, cattle, birds or tigers, etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Typically these &quot;animals&quot; were understood to dwell quite far outside Greece and the Roman Empire, at the edges of the world, such as Greco-Roman writers believed Africa, Arabia and India were located at. It was often essentially a matter of most of their readership never having been to these places and thus all manner of tall tales grew up about the fabulous populations thereof.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aelian's book *On Animals* catalogues a good number of these, such as:   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Neades**, which were monsters, inhabiting the island of Samos in prehistoric times, whose powerful roars could split the ground;&#xD;&#xA; - the **Scolopendra** (not to be confused with the modern scientific term&#xD;&#xA;   for a genus of centipedes), which he says was the largest of all sea&#xD;&#xA;   monsters;&#xD;&#xA; - **various Indian sea monsters** which he describes as fish-like things&#xD;&#xA;   that had the heads of lions, leopards, sheep and wolves;&#xD;&#xA; - **unicorns**, also originating in India, some of which were actually single-horned donkeys the size of horses, with some interesting colour features as well as other unusual characteristics which made them very dangerous;&#xD;&#xA; - **gigantic Indian snakes** which preyed on elephants (Philostratus tells us in his *Life of Apollonius of Tyana* that **griffins**, another naturally occurring beast, had an advantage over these snakes because, unlike the serpents, they had wings and therefore could fly); and&#xD;&#xA; - **gigantic Aethiopian snakes** dwelling in the same land as the virtuous long-lived (or immortal) Africans among whom the Greek gods used to take their annual vacations such as Homer's *Iliad* describes (these serpents being the largest such reptiles, says Aelian, they grew to as long as 180 feet [about 55 metres = at least seven times as long as some of the biggest anacondas] and, also living longer than any other animal, they too, like the Indian variety thereof, preyed upon elephants).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other &quot;natural&quot; cryptids in the mythology include [**basilisks**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilisk), [**manticores**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manticore) and [**Hippocamps**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocampus_(mythology)) (*Hippocampi*), the last of these being used as steeds by the sea-gods, and regarding which Aaron Atsma says that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;The ancients believed they were the adult-form of the small fish&#xD;&#xA;&gt; we call the &quot;sea-horse&quot;. Hippokampoi were the mounts of Nereid nymphs&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and sea-gods, and Poseidon drove a chariot drawn by two or four of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; creatures.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Other fish-tailed land animals which appear in ancient art&#xD;&#xA;&gt; include the &quot;Leokampos&quot; (fish-tailed lion), &quot;Taurokampos&quot; (fish-tailed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bull), &quot;Pardalokampos&quot; (fish-tailed leopard), and &quot;Aigikampos&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (fish-tailed goat). The last was the form of the constellation&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Capricorn. Fabulous creatures of this type were believed to be common&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in the Indian Ocean.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Divine Descent**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The parentage of a few of the more classical monsters is not mentioned, such as the sea monster which Poseidon sent to Aethiopia and which Perseus rescued the local princess Andromeda from being sacrificed to.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most of the rest, however, usually have at least one deity for a parent. The clearest exception that I can think of is the example of the grizzly man-eating giants **Agrius and Oreius**, whose mother [Polyphonte](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphonte) had conceived them by mating with a bear. Although neither of these giants' parents was a deity, Polyphonte's mother Thrassa was the daughter of the war-god Ares, thus making Agrius and Oreius the great-grandsons of Ares.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;The parentage of Agrius and Oreius is quite similar to that of the **Minotaur**, whose father was a bull and whose mother Pasiphae was queen of Crete Island. Since Pasiphae was a goddess, this technically made the Minotaur part god and part ox. The Minotaur's grandfather was Helios, the Sun.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The hundred-eyed giant [**Argus Panoptes**](http://www.maicar.com/GML/Argus1.html), &quot;Argus All-Eyes,&quot; has a variety of different parentages ascribed to him, most having to do with the royalty of the city of Argos. Several authors say that Argus, like many other giants, was an Autochthon, which is to say that he was born spontaneously out of the ground so that Gaia, the Earth, was called his mother.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One alternative says that Argus was a son of the River [Inachus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inachus), who was also the father of the Naiad Io. After Zeus had almost been caught in the act of cheating on Hera with Io but then quickly disguised Io as a cow and pretended that that's all she was, Hera took the cow and recruited Argus Panoptes to guard her. If Argus's father was Inachus, this would mean that Argus was guarding his own sister.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus lists a few other versions of Argus's origin, in one of which his mother Ismene is a Naiad of the Asopus River, and his father is also called [Argus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argus_(king_of_Argos)). This other Argus, after whom the city of Argos was named, was a grandson of [Phoroneus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoroneus), who in turn was yet another son of Inachus. In an additional version, the mother of the All-Eyed Giant is the Naiad Mycene, a daughter of Inachus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Divine Parentage**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In every single other example of monster that comes to mind, at least one of the creature's parents is a major deity, mostly either Gaia or Poseidon or both. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Roman writer Hyginus tells of **a primaeval Gorgon named Aega or Aex**, whose father was the Sun. She had a dazzlingly beautiful body, &quot;but in contrast to this beauty, had a most horrible face&quot;, and the Titans were so terrified of her, or so overwhelmed by her brilliance, that they begged their mother, the Earth, to hide her from them. Mother Earth complied by concealing Aega in a cave on Crete Island, where this solar Gorgon became a nurse of the infant Zeus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When war broke out between Zeus and the Titans, an oracle told Zeus that if he wanted to win, he should wear armour made from a goat-skin combined with the head of Aega, who was presumably already dead at this point. Zeus made the prescribed ingredients into his famous shield, arm-guard or breastplate called the Aegis, which acquired its name from the Gorgon. Using this he was thus able to conquer his enemies, and it later became a signature emblem of Zeus's daughter Athena.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the better-known classical story involving a Gorgon, there are three of them: triplet sisters named **Medusa, Sthenno and Euryale**, who were the daughters of the sea-god Phorcys by the sea-monster Ceto, who is both Phorcys's sister and his wife. This is from Hesiod's *Theogony*, the source that you reference in which Echidna is the offspring of a sea-god. Here, Echidna would be a sister of the Gorgons, who have another set of triplet sisters, the [**Graeae**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeae), &quot;Grey Ones.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Theogony*, [**Ladon**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladon_(mythology)), the sleepless hundred-headed who guards the garden of the Hesperides and is killed by Heracles (Hercules), is a brother of Echidna, and of the Gorgons and the Graeae. Apollodorus and Hyginus say, rather, that he is a son of Typhoeus and Echidna.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By a goddess named Crataeis (who was probably an Oceanid of the Underworld), Phorcys was the father of two beautiful sea-nymphs, **Scylla** and Thoosa. Out of jealously the immortal witch Circe, using a noxious concoction, changed Scylla into a fearsome monster encountered by Odysseus on his calamitous journey home from Troy. By Poseidon, Thoosa became the mother of the Cyclops **Polyphemus**, whom Odysseus also met under less than ideal circumstances.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Servius' commentary on the *Aeneid*, Gaia bore Poseidon a voracious gigantic daughter named **Charybdis**, who stole oxen from Heracles. With a lightning-blast, Zeus hurled her into the sea, where she transformed into the famous whirlpool, still called Charybdis, which was paired with Scylla as a danger to sailors. Apollodorus says that Gaia also bore Poseidon the Libyan giant **Antaeus**, whom Heracles wrestled with and killed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The giant **Laestrygon**, from whom the monstrous **Laestrygones** of the *Odyssey* are descended, was also a son of Poseidon and Gaia, according Hesiod's *Catalogues of Women*. The *Catalogues* also mention a race of dog-headed people called the [Hemikynoi](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/3403/2682), &quot;Half-Dogs,&quot; whom later writers called the **Cynocephali**, &quot;Dog-Heads.&quot; These were Gaia's offspring either by Poseidon or by Zeus' Egyptian son Epaphus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The golden fleece which the Argonauts went to fetch from Colchis originally belonged to **Chrysomallus**, a golden, winged, talking ram which was the offspring of Poseidon by a princess named Theophane. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The famous winged horse **Pegasus** was a son of Poseidon and Medusa, and the triple-bodied red ogre **Geryones**, whose oxen Heracles had to steal in order to fulfill his tenth labour, was the grandson of Poseidon and Medusa. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Quintus Smyrnaeus' *Fall of Troy*, **the four fire-breathing horses of the war-god Ares** were the offspring of Boreas, the North Wind, by one of the Erinnyes.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Early in his career Apollo killed two gigantic offspring of Gaia. The first was the dragon **Python**, in one of whose birth stories this dragon hatched from the mud which had silted together after the Flood was over. The other offspring was the giant **Tityus**, who was actually a son of Zeus by a princess named Elara. Having debauched Elara, Zeus buried her under the earth for fear of his wife Hera's jealousy. Their son Tityus, a child of enormous size, burst forth from the ground some time afterwards, having been given a double birth, emerging first from Elara and then from Gaia's body. When Tityus had grown up, he tried to rape Apollo's mother Leto and paid for the offence by being shot to death by Apollo. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Pindar and Philostratus the Elder, the **Centaurs** of Thessaly were the offspring of Centaurus, a son of Apollo. In Apollodorus' *Library*, the Centaur [**Pholus**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pholus_(mythology)) is the son of the god Seilenus and the nymph Melia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod says that the Titan Oceanus was the father of a pair twin monkey-like gnomes called the **Cercopes**, whom Heracles encountered in his adventures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's more where that came from in The Theoi Project's quite comprehensive [Bestiary](http://www.theoi.com/greek-mythology/bestiary.html).    " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15573" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4689" RevisionGUID="d0c3903a-4798-4ec6-a834-eec7128b498a" CreationDate="2018-04-05T20:29:26.693" UserId="4934" Comment="edited title" Text="A battle between Maksimo and Digenis in Greek Folklore" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15574" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4696" RevisionGUID="415abb0b-c21b-4b33-8754-862937b80b7c" CreationDate="2018-04-06T08:19:02.027" UserId="1511" Text="We all know of the four-leafed clover and the horseshoe - now I wonder what other items are considered magical in various cultures - as in bringing good luck to the owner. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15575" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4696" RevisionGUID="415abb0b-c21b-4b33-8754-862937b80b7c" CreationDate="2018-04-06T08:19:02.027" UserId="1511" Text="What items bring good luck in different folklore?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15576" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4696" RevisionGUID="415abb0b-c21b-4b33-8754-862937b80b7c" CreationDate="2018-04-06T08:19:02.027" UserId="1511" Text="|magic|myth|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15577" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4577" RevisionGUID="60421473-d807-4738-9fac-e1068c68ddfe" CreationDate="2018-04-06T22:16:54.073" UserId="4886" Comment="edited body" Text="I think the most obvious connection between the 3 witches and prior mythologies is the witchcraft goddess Hecate, particularly since she's mentioned explicitly in Macbeth, Act 3, Scene 5. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Originally Hecate was considered a beneficent figure and among others had a large cult centre in Byzantium (modern-day Istanbul, Turkey). She was described as a titan in Hesiod's Theogony, but unlike other titans, she sided with the Gods and was therefore subsequently allowed to retain all her former power and providence. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Her representations are many and varied, including association with Zoroastrianism via the Chaldean Oracles, with the Orphic mystery cult, and subsequently with Neoplatonism was featured as the World-Soul. A sculpture of the triple goddess Hecate Chiaramonti is still on display in the Vatican Museum. During the Roman period, she became increasingly associated with death and evil doing in spite of the fact that she was originally credited with averting evil. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Her character and attributes were syncretized many times through history as different cultures came in contact, so it's likely that there is also relation with the Nornir from Anglo-Saxon myths who are quite comparable to the Moirai and Eileithyia with whom Hecate is also often associated. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Depending on how far back you want to go, she can also be considered descendent from the cult of the Matrons, who are most commonly depicted as triple Goddesses, and which has precedents going back close to 30 thousand years according to evidence in the archaeological record. The Matrons cult was widespread and according to scholar Maria Kvilhaug, still persists in a nearly identical form in some remote parts of Siberia. Venerable Bede specifically mentions Mōdraniht as a winter solstice festival in Britain honouring the Matres and Matronae." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15579" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="4696" RevisionGUID="69026281-a0fa-49b1-a2b4-dacce36108e2" CreationDate="2018-04-07T12:02:39.570" UserId="-1" Comment="104" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:1317,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Spencer&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:1241,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ken Graham&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:4271,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Andrew Johnson&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:2774,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Gibet&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="15580" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4697" RevisionGUID="6c54af6f-4786-4016-9a87-fd8a9e6a3312" CreationDate="2018-04-07T14:46:32.830" UserId="4940" Text=" &quot;Dragon&quot; can be too broad. The answer will be dragon-dependent. Only two examples:&#xA;&#xA;* The dragon of St George appears be only a beast.&#xA;&#xA;* In the Grimm Brother's tale &quot;The Devil and the Soldiers&quot; a dragon offers to save three soldiers if they agree to work for him for a number of years (Wikipedia). I don't know how old is the original tale.&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15581" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4698" RevisionGUID="fb63925b-2b69-4d0b-a816-911dfe677daa" CreationDate="2018-04-07T18:38:50.827" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="In Russian culture, the [domovoy][1] (домовой) is a domestic house spirit. Traditionally he lives under the stove or threshold, in the cattle shed or in the stable. He is the home's guardian and if kept happy - he can be left milk, porridge, bread, and salt - he helps with the work.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most Russians nowadays live in flats (apartments), where some continue to experience *domovye*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Many aspects of life in flats are different from life in single-family houses in the countryside. How does this affect how people experience *domovye*? Did they appear in flats as soon as people moved in, or did they take a while to manifest? Did they follow families from their previous homes in the countryside? How are their lives and interactions with people different now?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domovoi" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15582" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4698" RevisionGUID="fb63925b-2b69-4d0b-a816-911dfe677daa" CreationDate="2018-04-07T18:38:50.827" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="How are domovye (domestic spirits) experienced in Russian flats (apartments)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15583" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4698" RevisionGUID="fb63925b-2b69-4d0b-a816-911dfe677daa" CreationDate="2018-04-07T18:38:50.827" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="|folklore|russian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15584" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1019" RevisionGUID="07616704-424f-4fd3-a1cc-1427e35a3e84" CreationDate="2018-04-07T20:49:50.527" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="edited tags" Text="|gilgamesh|dreams|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15585" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2405" RevisionGUID="0461834b-1dc0-40aa-8fa7-09381371a99b" CreationDate="2018-04-07T20:50:01.247" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="edited tags" Text="|folklore|animals|native-american|dreams|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15586" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="109" RevisionGUID="392d1628-7abb-4b24-97f5-80a7d5e9f19e" CreationDate="2018-04-07T20:50:13.163" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="edited tags" Text="|creation|indigenous-australian|dreamtime|dreams|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15587" PostHistoryTypeId="12" PostId="4689" RevisionGUID="168fab93-9ab7-4153-a9d1-5f6ad07e2e7e" CreationDate="2018-04-07T20:54:23.107" UserId="4934" Comment="via Vote" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:4934,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Shatov&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="15588" PostHistoryTypeId="13" PostId="4689" RevisionGUID="f603feda-40cc-428a-b650-94ee76651c54" CreationDate="2018-04-07T20:55:18.067" UserId="4934" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:4934,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Shatov&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="15589" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4696" RevisionGUID="f275790f-2c7d-46f7-9527-45178e75ec76" CreationDate="2018-04-08T05:16:58.717" UserId="1511" Comment="edited title" Text="What talismans bring good luck in different folklore?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15591" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4700" RevisionGUID="75223766-2bfe-4c05-98b6-38ecb100d883" CreationDate="2018-04-08T16:54:53.087" UserDisplayName="user4660" Text="**Домовой** lives in almost every home. Most often he may be found where several generations of the family lived. To reveal his presence is difficult, but if a home is not happy, he will certainly show his displeasure. He is able to protect against many misfortunes: fires, scandals, theft, ill-wishers or foes. However, if a family start show disrespect to their home, make a mess, **Домовой** is angry, and then you'll know exactly what he lives in that home.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;People believed that without a **Домовой** there will be misfortune in the family, so when moving in the last night or before leaving the old house invited **Домовой** to a new place saying: *Ангел мой, пойдём со мной* (my angel, come with me) 3 times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#Signs of the presence of the [Домовой][1] in the apartment&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##1. Loud noise&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sometimes at the night **Домовой** may manifest himself, rearranging the dishes in the kitchen, slamming doors, loud stomping. He usually gets mad when the hostess stops carefully monitor the cleanliness. In this case, the **Домовой** gets harmful, hides things, thereby calling for cleaning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##2. Pets&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most widespread pets, cats and dogs, always see and hear more than people. If you noticed that the dog sometimes cautiously looks into the corner, starts wagging her tail and trying to play like herself, most likely, she sees **Домовой**. Also cats can suddenly freeze, and then are beginning purr, arching back, as if invisible hand caress them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B9&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ik6qi.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15592" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4700" RevisionGUID="29e95eee-4486-4521-b14e-52d999e95ef5" CreationDate="2018-04-08T17:10:34.380" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="Added paragraph 3. Loss of sweets, small items" Text="**Домовой** lives in almost every home. Most often he may be found where several generations of the family lived. To reveal his presence is difficult, but if a home is not happy, he will certainly show his displeasure. He is able to protect against many misfortunes: fires, scandals, theft, ill-wishers or foes. However, if a family start show disrespect to their home, make a mess, **Домовой** is angry, and then you'll know exactly what he lives in that home.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;People believed that without a **Домовой** there will be misfortune in the family, so when moving in the last night or before leaving the old house invited **Домовой** to a new place saying: *Ангел мой, пойдём со мной* (my angel, come with me) 3 times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#Signs of the presence of the [Домовой][1] in the apartment&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##1. Loud noise&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sometimes at the night **Домовой** may manifest himself, rearranging the dishes in the kitchen, slamming doors, loud stomping. He usually gets mad when the hostess stops carefully monitor the cleanliness. In this case, the **Домовой** gets harmful, hides things, thereby calling for cleaning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##2. Pets&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most widespread pets, cats and dogs, always see and hear more than people. If you noticed that the dog sometimes cautiously looks into the corner, starts wagging her tail and trying to play like herself, most likely, she sees **Домовой**. Also cats can suddenly freeze, and then are beginning purr, arching back, as if invisible hand caress them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##3. Loss of sweets, small items&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Домовой** may steal a few candies, wrappers from which will periodically catch your eye in the most unexpected places. Also he may shift keys, scissors and other objects out of harmfulness. Pour milk in a small cup, put porridge with butter in a plate and put it in the corner. Ask **Домовой** apologize for the carelessness and ask him to guard your house with the same force. Also ask to return the lost things in exchange, for example, for marmalade.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B9&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ik6qi.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15593" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4700" RevisionGUID="eaed5d4e-74d5-48a1-8094-31f4ce5bf66e" CreationDate="2018-04-08T17:31:22.273" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="Added paragraph 4. Dreams" Text="**Домовой** lives in almost every home. Most often he may be found where several generations of the family lived. To reveal his presence is difficult, but if a home is not happy, he will certainly show his displeasure. He is able to protect against many misfortunes: fires, scandals, theft, ill-wishers or foes. However, if a family start show disrespect to their home, make a mess, **Домовой** becomes angry, and then you'll know exactly that he lives in that home.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;People believed that without a **Домовой** there will be misfortune in the family, so when moving in the last night or before leaving the old house invited **Домовой** to a new place saying: *Ангел мой, пойдём со мной* (my angel, come with me) 3 times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#Signs of the presence of the [Домовой][1] in the apartment&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##1. Loud noise&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sometimes at the night **Домовой** may manifest himself, rearranging the dishes in the kitchen, slamming doors, loud stomping. He usually gets mad when the hostess stops carefully monitor the cleanliness. In this case, the **Домовой** gets harmful, hides things, thereby calling for cleaning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##2. Pets&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most widespread pets, cats and dogs, always see and hear more than people. If you noticed that the dog sometimes cautiously looks into the corner, starts wagging her tail and trying to play like herself, most likely, she sees **Домовой**. Also cats can suddenly freeze, and then are beginning purr, arching back, as if invisible hand caress them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##3. Loss of sweets, small items&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Домовой** may steal a few candies, wrappers from which will periodically catch your eye in the most unexpected places. Also he may shift keys, scissors and other objects out of harmfulness. Pour milk in a small cup, put porridge with butter in a plate and put it in the corner. Ask **Домовой** apologize for the carelessness and ask him to guard your house with the same force. Also ask to return the lost things in exchange, for example, for marmalade.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##4. Dreams&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a dream **Домовой** may prompt you the solution of the problem, indicate who from the inner circle are hostile. In rare cases, **Домовой** may indicate the place where the treasure is hidden. So he shows respect, thanks for caring, but most often it is gratitude for the fact that when you moved you didn't forgot about him and offered to go to a new home.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B9&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ik6qi.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15594" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4700" RevisionGUID="bef31e5c-c505-4f76-bbee-81b03efafaf8" CreationDate="2018-04-08T17:46:58.743" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="Added paragraph 5. Safety" Text="**Домовой** lives in almost every home. Most often he may be found where several generations of the family lived. To reveal his presence is difficult, but if a home is not happy, he will certainly show his displeasure. He is able to protect against many misfortunes: fires, scandals, theft, ill-wishers or foes. However, if a family start show disrespect to their home, make a mess, **Домовой** becomes angry, and then you'll know exactly that he lives in that home.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;People believed that without a **Домовой** there will be misfortune in the family, so when moving in the last night or before leaving the old house invited **Домовой** to a new place saying: *Ангел мой, пойдём со мной* (my angel, come with me) 3 times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#Signs of the presence of the [Домовой][1] in the apartment&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##1. Loud noise&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sometimes at the night **Домовой** may manifest himself, rearranging the dishes in the kitchen, slamming doors, loud stomping. He usually gets mad when the hostess stops carefully monitor the cleanliness. In this case, the **Домовой** gets harmful, hides things, thereby calling for cleaning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##2. Pets&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most widespread pets, cats and dogs, always see and hear more than people. If you noticed that the dog sometimes cautiously looks into the corner, starts wagging her tail and trying to play like herself, most likely, she sees **Домовой**. Also cats can suddenly freeze, and then are beginning purr, arching back, as if invisible hand caress them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##3. Loss of sweets, small items&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Домовой** may steal a few candies, wrappers from which will periodically catch your eye in the most unexpected places. Also he may shift keys, scissors and other objects out of harmfulness. Pour milk in a small cup, put porridge with butter in a plate and put it in the corner. Ask **Домовой** apologize for the carelessness and ask him to guard your house with the same force. Also ask to return the lost things in exchange, for example, for marmalade.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##4. Dreams&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a dream **Домовой** may prompt you the solution of the problem, indicate who from the inner circle are hostile. In rare cases, **Домовой** may indicate the place where the treasure is hidden. So he shows respect, thanks for caring, but most often it is gratitude for the fact that when you moved you didn't forgot about him and offered to go to a new home.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##5. Safety&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We often feel anxiety, but when we return home, we notice that fears gone somewhere. Peace mood appears, warmth and comfort. And at night nightmares don't torture us we easily fall asleep and wake up cheerful and rested. It is also a sign of a presence **Домовой** in the house who cares about our safety and peace of mind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B9&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ik6qi.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15595" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4700" RevisionGUID="4339a25a-547a-4723-8909-a05405e5bb4a" CreationDate="2018-04-08T17:58:33.720" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="Added paragraph 6. Warning" Text="**Домовой** lives in almost every home. Most often he may be found where several generations of the family lived. To reveal his presence is difficult, but if a home is not happy, he will certainly show his displeasure. He is able to protect against many misfortunes: fires, scandals, theft, ill-wishers or foes. However, if a family start show disrespect to their home, make a mess, **Домовой** becomes angry, and then you'll know exactly that he lives in that home.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;People believed that without a **Домовой** there will be misfortune in the family, so when moving in the last night or before leaving the old house invited **Домовой** to a new place saying: *Ангел мой, пойдём со мной* (my angel, come with me) 3 times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#Signs of the presence of the [Домовой][1] in the apartment&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Домовой][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##1. Loud noise&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sometimes at the night **Домовой** may manifest himself, rearranging the dishes in the kitchen, slamming doors, loud stomping. He usually gets mad when the hostess stops carefully monitor the cleanliness. In this case, the **Домовой** gets harmful, hides things, thereby calling for cleaning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##2. Pets&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most widespread pets, cats and dogs, always see and hear more than people. If you noticed that the dog sometimes cautiously looks into the corner, starts wagging her tail and trying to play like herself, most likely, she sees **Домовой**. Also cats can suddenly freeze, and then are beginning purr, arching back, as if invisible hand caress them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##3. Loss of sweets, small items&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Домовой** may steal a few candies, wrappers from which will periodically catch your eye in the most unexpected places. Also he may shift keys, scissors and other objects out of harmfulness. Pour milk in a small cup, put porridge with butter in a plate and put it in the corner. Ask **Домовой** apologize for the carelessness and ask him to guard your house with the same force. Also ask to return the lost things in exchange, for example, for marmalade.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##4. Dreams&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a dream **Домовой** may prompt you the solution of the problem, indicate who from the inner circle are hostile. In rare cases, **Домовой** may indicate the place where the treasure is hidden. So he shows respect, thanks for caring, but most often it is gratitude for the fact that when you moved you didn't forgot about him and offered to go to a new home.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##5. Safety&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We often feel anxiety, but when we return home, we notice that fears gone somewhere. Peace mood appears, warmth and comfort. And at night nightmares don't torture us we easily fall asleep and wake up cheerful and rested. It is also a sign of a presence **Домовой** in the house who cares about our safety and peace of mind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##6. Warning&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sometimes it also happens that at the night we suddenly wake up with a strong sense of anxiety, and in the dream feel like something swooped down and presses. So **Домовой** warns of impending danger. Also, he may make loud noise, slam the door or press the doorbell. In this case, you should take care of your safety and prevent leakage of gas, water or fire, double-checking all the important places in the house.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B9&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ik6qi.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15596" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4700" RevisionGUID="8c2c2a15-fed8-49ae-9a74-35118305f5ec" CreationDate="2018-04-08T18:24:33.403" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="Added paragraph 7. Company" Text="**Домовой** lives in almost every home. Most often he may be found where several generations of the family lived. To reveal his presence is difficult, but if a home is not happy, he will certainly show his displeasure. He is able to protect against many misfortunes: fires, scandals, theft, ill-wishers or foes. However, if a family start show disrespect to their home, make a mess, **Домовой** becomes angry, and then you'll know exactly that he lives in that home.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;People believed that without a **Домовой** there will be misfortune in the family, so when moving in the last night or before leaving the old house invited **Домовой** to a new place saying: *Ангел мой, пойдём со мной* (my angel, come with me) 3 times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#Signs of the presence of the [Домовой][1] in the apartment&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Домовой][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##1. Loud noise&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sometimes at the night **Домовой** may manifest himself, rearranging the dishes in the kitchen, slamming doors, loud stomping. He usually gets mad when the hostess stops carefully monitor the cleanliness. In this case, the **Домовой** gets harmful, hides things, thereby calling for cleaning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##2. Pets&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most widespread pets, cats and dogs, always see and hear more than people. If you noticed that the dog sometimes cautiously looks into the corner, starts wagging her tail and trying to play like herself, most likely, she sees **Домовой**. Also cats can suddenly freeze, and then are beginning purr, arching back, as if invisible hand caress them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##3. Loss of sweets, small items&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Домовой** may steal a few candies, wrappers from which will periodically catch your eye in the most unexpected places. Also he may shift keys, scissors and other objects out of harmfulness. Pour milk in a small cup, put porridge with butter in a plate and put it in the corner. Ask **Домовой** apologize for the carelessness and ask him to guard your house with the same force. Also ask to return the lost things in exchange, for example, for marmalade.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##4. Dreams&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a dream **Домовой** may prompt you the solution of the problem, indicate who from the inner circle are hostile. In rare cases, **Домовой** may indicate the place where the treasure is hidden. So he shows respect, thanks for caring, but most often it is gratitude for the fact that when you moved you didn't forgot about him and offered to go to a new home.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##5. Safety&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We often feel anxiety, but when we return home, we notice that fears gone somewhere. Peace mood appears, warmth and comfort. And at night nightmares don't torture us we easily fall asleep and wake up cheerful and rested. It is also a sign of a presence **Домовой** in the house who cares about our safety and peace of mind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##6. Warning&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sometimes it also happens that at the night we suddenly wake up with a strong sense of anxiety, and in the dream feel like something swooped down and presses. So **Домовой** warns of impending danger. Also, he may make loud noise, slam the door or press the doorbell. In this case, you should take care of your safety and prevent leakage of gas, water or fire, double-checking all the important places in the house.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##7. Company&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Often before someone without notification looks to visit unto you you will feel it. This may be intuition, but most often the **Домовой** warns of all uninvited guests in advance. A quiet knock or jingled phone alerts about people with good intentions. Sense of anxiety, suddenly crashed glass, worried pets signal, that foes want to visit your house.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B9&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ik6qi.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15597" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4700" RevisionGUID="bb1746e5-fc6d-4fd2-93a8-1e854b28c473" CreationDate="2018-04-08T18:41:07.367" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="Added paragraph 8. Children" Text="**Домовой** lives in almost every home. Most often he may be found where several generations of the family lived. To reveal his presence is difficult, but if a home is not happy, he will certainly show his displeasure. He is able to protect against many misfortunes: fires, scandals, theft, ill-wishers or foes. However, if a family start show disrespect to their home, make a mess, **Домовой** becomes angry, and then you'll know exactly that he lives in that home.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;People believed that without a **Домовой** there will be misfortune in the family, so when moving in the last night or before leaving the old house invited **Домовой** to a new place saying: *Ангел мой, пойдём со мной* (my angel, come with me) 3 times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#Signs of the presence of the [Домовой][1] in the apartment&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Домовой][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##1. Loud noise&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sometimes at the night **Домовой** may manifest himself, rearranging the dishes in the kitchen, slamming doors, loud stomping. He usually gets mad when the hostess stops carefully monitor the cleanliness. In this case, the **Домовой** gets harmful, hides things, thereby calling for cleaning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##2. Pets&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most widespread pets, cats and dogs, always see and hear more than people. If you noticed that the dog sometimes cautiously looks into the corner, starts wagging her tail and trying to play like herself, most likely, she sees **Домовой**. Also cats can suddenly freeze, and then are beginning purr, arching back, as if invisible hand caress them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##3. Loss of sweets, small items&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Домовой** may steal a few candies, wrappers from which will periodically catch your eye in the most unexpected places. Also he may shift keys, scissors and other objects out of harmfulness. Pour milk in a small cup, put porridge with butter in a plate and put it in the corner. Ask **Домовой** apologize for the carelessness and ask him to guard your house with the same force. Also ask to return the lost things in exchange, for example, for marmalade.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##4. Dreams&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a dream **Домовой** may prompt you the solution of the problem, indicate who from the inner circle are hostile. In rare cases, **Домовой** may indicate the place where the treasure is hidden. So he shows respect, thanks for caring, but most often it is gratitude for the fact that when you moved you didn't forgot about him and offered to go to a new home.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##5. Safety&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We often feel anxiety, but when we return home, we notice that fears gone somewhere. Peace mood appears, warmth and comfort. And at night nightmares don't torture us we easily fall asleep and wake up cheerful and rested. It is also a sign of a presence **Домовой** in the house who cares about our safety and peace of mind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##6. Warning&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sometimes it also happens that at the night we suddenly wake up with a strong sense of anxiety, and in the dream feel like something swooped down and presses. So **Домовой** warns of impending danger. Also, he may make loud noise, slam the door or press the doorbell. In this case, you should take care of your safety and prevent leakage of gas, water or fire, double-checking all the important places in the house.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##7. Company&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Often before someone without notification looks to visit unto you you will feel it. This may be intuition, but most often the **Домовой** warns of all uninvited guests in advance. A quiet knock or jingled phone alerts about people with good intentions. Sense of anxiety, suddenly crashed glass, worried pets signal, that foes want to visit your house.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##8. Children&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Домовой** refers to junior family members with special attention and respect, play with them and protect. Often you may notice that the child puts an extra tableware for a doll tea party, laughs loudly, says something into the void. Young mothers often notice that suddenly shouted in a dream child becomes silent, the blanket on him is corrected, and the cradle slowly swings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B9&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ik6qi.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15598" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4700" RevisionGUID="f6009d21-bea1-4846-b399-6c15d0f5abd5" CreationDate="2018-04-08T19:22:00.177" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="Added paragraph 9. Feelings" Text="**Домовой** lives in almost every home. Most often he may be found where several generations of the family lived. To reveal his presence is difficult, but if a home is not happy, he will certainly show his displeasure. He is able to protect against many misfortunes: fires, scandals, theft, ill-wishers or foes. However, if a family start show disrespect to their home, make a mess, **Домовой** becomes angry, and then you'll know exactly that he lives in that home.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;People believed that without a **Домовой** there will be misfortune in the family, so when moving in the last night or before leaving the old house invited **Домовой** to a new place saying: *Ангел мой, пойдём со мной* (my angel, come with me) 3 times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#Signs of the presence of the [Домовой][1] in the apartment&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Домовой][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##1. Loud noise&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sometimes at the night **Домовой** may manifest himself, rearranging the dishes in the kitchen, slamming doors, loud stomping. He usually gets mad when the hostess stops carefully monitor the cleanliness. In this case, the **Домовой** gets harmful, hides things, thereby calling for cleaning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##2. Pets&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most widespread pets, cats and dogs, always see and hear more than people. If you noticed that the dog sometimes cautiously looks into the corner, starts wagging her tail and trying to play like herself, most likely, she sees **Домовой**. Also cats can suddenly freeze, and then are beginning purr, arching back, as if invisible hand caress them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##3. Loss of sweets, small items&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Домовой** may steal a few candies, wrappers from which will periodically catch your eye in the most unexpected places. Also he may shift keys, scissors and other objects out of harmfulness. Pour milk in a small cup, put porridge with butter in a plate and put it in the corner. Ask **Домовой** apologize for the carelessness and ask him to guard your house with the same force. Also ask to return the lost things in exchange, for example, for marmalade.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##4. Dreams&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a dream **Домовой** may prompt you the solution of the problem, indicate who from the inner circle are hostile. In rare cases, **Домовой** may indicate the place where the treasure is hidden. So he shows respect, thanks for caring, but most often it is gratitude for the fact that when you moved you didn't forgot about him and offered to go to a new home.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##5. Safety&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We often feel anxiety, but when we return home, we notice that fears gone somewhere. Peace mood appears, warmth and comfort. And at night nightmares don't torture us we easily fall asleep and wake up cheerful and rested. It is also a sign of a presence **Домовой** in the house who cares about our safety and peace of mind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##6. Warning&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sometimes it also happens that at the night we suddenly wake up with a strong sense of anxiety, and in the dream feel like something swooped down and presses. So **Домовой** warns of impending danger. Also, he may make loud noise, slam the door or press the doorbell. In this case, you should take care of your safety and prevent leakage of gas, water or fire, double-checking all the important places in the house.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##7. Company&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Often before someone without notification looks to visit unto you you will feel it. This may be intuition, but most often the **Домовой** warns of all uninvited guests in advance. A quiet knock or jingled phone alerts about people with good intentions. Sense of anxiety, suddenly crashed glass, worried pets signal, that foes want to visit your house.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##8. Children&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Домовой** refers to junior family members with special attention and respect, play with them and protect. Often you may notice that the child puts an extra tableware for a doll tea party, laughs loudly, says something into the void. Young mothers often notice that suddenly shouted in a dream child becomes silent, the blanket on him is corrected, and the cradle slowly swings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##9. Feelings&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When moving to a new home, you should carefully listen to your feelings, especially if someone lived in the new house before you. Often owners leave the apartments and houses, without taking away spirit with themselves. In this case, **Домовой** is unlikely to be friendly to you. His trust must be earned. If the feeling of anxiety don't leaves you give to the little spirit some dainty and offer friendship. In as a gift you can give him a shred of a tissue, old clothes, hay, shoe. If this is a private house, then **Домовой** necessarily choose a secluded area, where he will settle with great comfort. In apartments, **Домовой** feels more difficult because of the small space, but here he also may choose a place under the bathtub, on the entresol or in an old suitcase. If over time you have established life, you feel peace, so then **Домовой** took you for the new owners and is ready to serve. If the feeling of anxiety increases, things disappear in the house, scandals become more frequent, it is worth thinking about how to drive away the evil spirit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B9&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ik6qi.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15599" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4701" RevisionGUID="89ebe3ef-405d-4b3b-823d-a588a7998276" CreationDate="2018-04-08T19:34:27.803" UserId="4944" Text="Obviously the act was symbolic and smacked of a type of perceived poetic justice-- in that the massive wall had protected the Trojans for so long, but now it would be the means of destroying the child, the supposed last vestige of their royal line.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of course the Greeks knew nothing of Aeneas' escape." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15600" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4700" RevisionGUID="15e278b1-46a7-4637-82f2-71786f7aaeb1" CreationDate="2018-04-08T20:07:21.973" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="Added paragraph 10. Appearance" Text="**Домовой** lives in almost every home. Most often he may be found where several generations of the family lived. To reveal his presence is difficult, but if a home is not happy, he will certainly show his displeasure. He is able to protect against many misfortunes: fires, scandals, theft, ill-wishers or foes. However, if a family start show disrespect to their home, make a mess, **Домовой** becomes angry, and then you'll know exactly that he lives in that home.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;People believed that without a **Домовой** there will be misfortune in the family, so when moving in the last night or before leaving the old house invited **Домовой** to a new place saying: *Ангел мой, пойдём со мной* (my angel, come with me) 3 times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#Signs of the presence of the [Домовой][1] in the apartment&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Домовой][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##1. Loud noise&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sometimes at the night **Домовой** may manifest himself, rearranging the dishes in the kitchen, slamming doors, loud stomping. He usually gets mad when the hostess stops carefully monitor the cleanliness. In this case, the **Домовой** gets harmful, hides things, thereby calling for cleaning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##2. Pets&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most widespread pets, cats and dogs, always see and hear more than people. If you noticed that the dog sometimes cautiously looks into the corner, starts wagging her tail and trying to play like herself, most likely, she sees **Домовой**. Also cats can suddenly freeze, and then are beginning purr, arching back, as if invisible hand caress them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##3. Loss of sweets or small items&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Домовой** may steal a few candies, wrappers from which will periodically catch your eye in the most unexpected places. Also he may shift keys, scissors and other objects out of harmfulness. Pour milk in a small cup, put porridge with butter in a plate and put it in the corner. Ask **Домовой** apologize for the carelessness and ask him to guard your house with the same force. Also ask to return the lost things in exchange, for example, for marmalade.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##4. Dreams&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a dream **Домовой** may prompt you the solution of the problem, indicate who from the inner circle are hostile. In rare cases, **Домовой** may indicate the place where the treasure is hidden. So he shows respect, thanks for caring, but most often it is gratitude for the fact that when you moved you didn't forgot about him and offered to go to a new home.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##5. Safety&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We often feel anxiety, but when we return home, we notice that fears gone somewhere. Peace mood appears, warmth and comfort. And at night nightmares don't torture us we easily fall asleep and wake up cheerful and rested. It is also a sign of a presence **Домовой** in the house who cares about our safety and peace of mind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##6. Warning&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sometimes it also happens that at the night we suddenly wake up with a strong sense of anxiety, and in the dream feel like something swooped down and presses. So **Домовой** warns of impending danger. Also, he may make loud noise, slam the door or press the doorbell. In this case, you should take care of your safety and prevent leakage of gas, water or fire, double-checking all the important places in the house.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##7. Company&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Often before someone without notification looks to visit unto you you will feel it. This may be intuition, but most often the **Домовой** warns of all uninvited guests in advance. A quiet knock or jingled phone alerts about people with good intentions. Sense of anxiety, suddenly crashed glass, worried pets signal, that foes want to visit your house.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##8. Children&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Домовой** refers to junior family members with special attention and respect, play with them and protect. Often you may notice that the child puts an extra tableware for a doll tea party, laughs loudly, says something into the void. Young mothers often notice that suddenly shouted in a dream child becomes silent, the blanket on him is corrected, and the cradle slowly swings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##9. Feelings&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When moving to a new home, you should carefully listen to your feelings, especially if someone lived in the new house before you. Often owners leave the apartments and houses, without taking away spirit with themselves. In this case, **Домовой** is unlikely to be friendly to you. His trust must be earned. If the feeling of anxiety don't leaves you give to the little spirit some dainty and offer friendship. In as a gift you can give him a shred of a tissue, old clothes, hay, shoe. If this is a private house, then **Домовой** necessarily choose a secluded area, where he will settle with great comfort. In apartments, **Домовой** feels more difficult because of the small space, but here he also may choose a place under the bathtub, on the entresol or in an old suitcase. If over time you have established life, you feel peace, so then **Домовой** took you for the new owners and is ready to serve. If the feeling of anxiety increases, things disappear in the house, scandals become more frequent, it is worth thinking about how to drive away the evil spirit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##10. Appearance&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In rare cases, **Домовой** reveals itself. If the little grey or smoky kitten implored to enter your door, let him in. **Домовой** is often embodied in these animals. It also happens that **Домовой** warns about something significant so much that dares to appear in front of us. This may be a small vague silhouette, a cat, a gray-haired old man. It is important at this point to concentrate and ask what news brought your home defender. Feel warmth - happy news wait you; cold, chills, shaking or a sense of danger - expect trouble.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B9&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ik6qi.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15601" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4700" RevisionGUID="431b1b0b-7b26-4657-9a34-0c97350aa733" CreationDate="2018-04-08T20:20:29.693" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="Added footer Original article in russian" Text="**Домовой** lives in almost every home. Most often he may be found where several generations of the family lived. To reveal his presence is difficult, but if a home is not happy, he will certainly show his displeasure. He is able to protect against many misfortunes: fires, scandals, theft, ill-wishers or foes. However, if a family start show disrespect to their home, make a mess, **Домовой** becomes angry, and then you'll know exactly that he lives in that home.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;People believed that without a **Домовой** there will be misfortune in the family, so when moving in the last night or before leaving the old house invited **Домовой** to a new place saying: *Ангел мой, пойдём со мной* (my angel, come with me) 3 times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#Signs of the presence of the [Домовой][1] in the apartment&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Домовой][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##1. Loud noise&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sometimes at the night **Домовой** may manifest himself, rearranging the dishes in the kitchen, slamming doors, loud stomping. He usually gets mad when the hostess stops carefully monitor the cleanliness. In this case, the **Домовой** gets harmful, hides things, thereby calling for cleaning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##2. Pets&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most widespread pets, cats and dogs, always see and hear more than people. If you noticed that the dog sometimes cautiously looks into the corner, starts wagging her tail and trying to play like herself, most likely, she sees **Домовой**. Also cats can suddenly freeze, and then are beginning purr, arching back, as if invisible hand caress them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##3. Loss of sweets or small items&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Домовой** may steal a few candies, wrappers from which will periodically catch your eye in the most unexpected places. Also he may shift keys, scissors and other objects out of harmfulness. Pour milk in a small cup, put porridge with butter in a plate and put it in the corner. Ask **Домовой** apologize for the carelessness and ask him to guard your house with the same force. Also ask to return the lost things in exchange, for example, for marmalade.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##4. Dreams&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a dream **Домовой** may prompt you the solution of the problem, indicate who from the inner circle are hostile. In rare cases, **Домовой** may indicate the place where the treasure is hidden. So he shows respect, thanks for caring, but most often it is gratitude for the fact that when you moved you didn't forgot about him and offered to go to a new home.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##5. Safety&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We often feel anxiety, but when we return home, we notice that fears gone somewhere. Peace mood appears, warmth and comfort. And at night nightmares don't torture us we easily fall asleep and wake up cheerful and rested. It is also a sign of a presence **Домовой** in the house who cares about our safety and peace of mind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##6. Warning&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sometimes it also happens that at the night we suddenly wake up with a strong sense of anxiety, and in the dream feel like something swooped down and presses. So **Домовой** warns of impending danger. Also, he may make loud noise, slam the door or press the doorbell. In this case, you should take care of your safety and prevent leakage of gas, water or fire, double-checking all the important places in the house.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##7. Company&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Often before someone without notification looks to visit unto you you will feel it. This may be intuition, but most often the **Домовой** warns of all uninvited guests in advance. A quiet knock or jingled phone alerts about people with good intentions. Sense of anxiety, suddenly crashed glass, worried pets signal, that foes want to visit your house.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##8. Children&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Домовой** refers to junior family members with special attention and respect, play with them and protect. Often you may notice that the child puts an extra tableware for a doll tea party, laughs loudly, says something into the void. Young mothers often notice that suddenly shouted in a dream child becomes silent, the blanket on him is corrected, and the cradle slowly swings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##9. Feelings&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When moving to a new home, you should carefully listen to your feelings, especially if someone lived in the new house before you. Often owners leave the apartments and houses, without taking away spirit with themselves. In this case, **Домовой** is unlikely to be friendly to you. His trust must be earned. If the feeling of anxiety don't leaves you give to the little spirit some dainty and offer friendship. In as a gift you can give him a shred of a tissue, old clothes, hay, shoe. If this is a private house, then **Домовой** necessarily choose a secluded area, where he will settle with great comfort. In apartments, **Домовой** feels more difficult because of the small space, but here he also may choose a place under the bathtub, on the entresol or in an old suitcase. If over time you have established life, you feel peace, so then **Домовой** took you for the new owners and is ready to serve. If the feeling of anxiety increases, things disappear in the house, scandals become more frequent, it is worth thinking about how to drive away the evil spirit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##10. Appearance&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In rare cases, **Домовой** reveals itself. If the little grey or smoky kitten implored to enter your door, let him in. **Домовой** is often embodied in these animals. It also happens that **Домовой** warns about something significant so much that dares to appear in front of us. This may be a small vague silhouette, a cat, a gray-haired old man. It is important at this point to concentrate and ask what news brought your home defender. Feel warmth - happy news wait you; cold, chills, shaking or a sense of danger - expect trouble.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Original article in russian][3]. Translated by [Drakonoved][4].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B9&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ik6qi.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://dailyhoro.ru/article/10-priznakov-prisutstviya-domovogo-v-kvartire/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/users/4660/drakonoved" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15602" PostHistoryTypeId="8" PostId="4700" RevisionGUID="2fb79275-da6c-4eaa-b395-0d10ad3c3bf2" CreationDate="2018-04-08T21:06:04.513" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="Rollback to [15e278b1-46a7-4637-82f2-71786f7aaeb1]" Text="**Домовой** lives in almost every home. Most often he may be found where several generations of the family lived. To reveal his presence is difficult, but if a home is not happy, he will certainly show his displeasure. He is able to protect against many misfortunes: fires, scandals, theft, ill-wishers or foes. However, if a family start show disrespect to their home, make a mess, **Домовой** becomes angry, and then you'll know exactly that he lives in that home.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;People believed that without a **Домовой** there will be misfortune in the family, so when moving in the last night or before leaving the old house invited **Домовой** to a new place saying: *Ангел мой, пойдём со мной* (my angel, come with me) 3 times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#Signs of the presence of the [Домовой][1] in the apartment&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Домовой][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##1. Loud noise&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sometimes at the night **Домовой** may manifest himself, rearranging the dishes in the kitchen, slamming doors, loud stomping. He usually gets mad when the hostess stops carefully monitor the cleanliness. In this case, the **Домовой** gets harmful, hides things, thereby calling for cleaning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##2. Pets&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most widespread pets, cats and dogs, always see and hear more than people. If you noticed that the dog sometimes cautiously looks into the corner, starts wagging her tail and trying to play like herself, most likely, she sees **Домовой**. Also cats can suddenly freeze, and then are beginning purr, arching back, as if invisible hand caress them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##3. Loss of sweets or small items&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Домовой** may steal a few candies, wrappers from which will periodically catch your eye in the most unexpected places. Also he may shift keys, scissors and other objects out of harmfulness. Pour milk in a small cup, put porridge with butter in a plate and put it in the corner. Ask **Домовой** apologize for the carelessness and ask him to guard your house with the same force. Also ask to return the lost things in exchange, for example, for marmalade.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##4. Dreams&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a dream **Домовой** may prompt you the solution of the problem, indicate who from the inner circle are hostile. In rare cases, **Домовой** may indicate the place where the treasure is hidden. So he shows respect, thanks for caring, but most often it is gratitude for the fact that when you moved you didn't forgot about him and offered to go to a new home.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##5. Safety&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We often feel anxiety, but when we return home, we notice that fears gone somewhere. Peace mood appears, warmth and comfort. And at night nightmares don't torture us we easily fall asleep and wake up cheerful and rested. It is also a sign of a presence **Домовой** in the house who cares about our safety and peace of mind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##6. Warning&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sometimes it also happens that at the night we suddenly wake up with a strong sense of anxiety, and in the dream feel like something swooped down and presses. So **Домовой** warns of impending danger. Also, he may make loud noise, slam the door or press the doorbell. In this case, you should take care of your safety and prevent leakage of gas, water or fire, double-checking all the important places in the house.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##7. Company&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Often before someone without notification looks to visit unto you you will feel it. This may be intuition, but most often the **Домовой** warns of all uninvited guests in advance. A quiet knock or jingled phone alerts about people with good intentions. Sense of anxiety, suddenly crashed glass, worried pets signal, that foes want to visit your house.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##8. Children&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Домовой** refers to junior family members with special attention and respect, play with them and protect. Often you may notice that the child puts an extra tableware for a doll tea party, laughs loudly, says something into the void. Young mothers often notice that suddenly shouted in a dream child becomes silent, the blanket on him is corrected, and the cradle slowly swings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##9. Feelings&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When moving to a new home, you should carefully listen to your feelings, especially if someone lived in the new house before you. Often owners leave the apartments and houses, without taking away spirit with themselves. In this case, **Домовой** is unlikely to be friendly to you. His trust must be earned. If the feeling of anxiety don't leaves you give to the little spirit some dainty and offer friendship. In as a gift you can give him a shred of a tissue, old clothes, hay, shoe. If this is a private house, then **Домовой** necessarily choose a secluded area, where he will settle with great comfort. In apartments, **Домовой** feels more difficult because of the small space, but here he also may choose a place under the bathtub, on the entresol or in an old suitcase. If over time you have established life, you feel peace, so then **Домовой** took you for the new owners and is ready to serve. If the feeling of anxiety increases, things disappear in the house, scandals become more frequent, it is worth thinking about how to drive away the evil spirit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##10. Appearance&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In rare cases, **Домовой** reveals itself. If the little grey or smoky kitten implored to enter your door, let him in. **Домовой** is often embodied in these animals. It also happens that **Домовой** warns about something significant so much that dares to appear in front of us. This may be a small vague silhouette, a cat, a gray-haired old man. It is important at this point to concentrate and ask what news brought your home defender. Feel warmth - happy news wait you; cold, chills, shaking or a sense of danger - expect trouble.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B9&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ik6qi.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15603" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4685" RevisionGUID="eb1a1ef6-e4be-444b-ab3e-8a9c34588188" CreationDate="2018-04-08T22:25:22.927" UserId="4271" Comment="added 135 characters in body" Text="Used for questions pertaining or related to non-human creatures in Mythology and Folklore that may or may not be based on real animals." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15604" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4685" RevisionGUID="eb1a1ef6-e4be-444b-ab3e-8a9c34588188" CreationDate="2018-04-08T22:25:22.927" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 2774, 292 edit id of 1604" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15605" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4702" RevisionGUID="e58e1f04-d88e-4fe3-b145-841f2eef6529" CreationDate="2018-04-09T02:07:26.323" UserId="4945" Text="Before Atlas held up the sky Ouranos was still alive so basiclly he kept the sky from falling. But after Kronos killed him Hyperion, Krios, Koios and Iapetos held up the sky from the 4 corners of the Earth that they were rewarded with for helping kill their father. Upon the Titans defeat Zeus threw them into Tartarus. Then Zeus chained Atlas and told him that because of his great streangth Atlas would have to Hold the sky up himself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hope that answers your question." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15606" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4703" RevisionGUID="95c475d2-d5ab-4b24-a768-bc627d5a8a51" CreationDate="2018-04-09T13:53:34.647" UserId="4271" Text="[![Hermes helps Hades abduct Persephone][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Retrieved from [here][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a mosaic depicting Hades abducting Persephone. Helping him, is Hermes. I do not recall a version of the myth in which Hermes helps Hades. Is there a version, or is this just an artist's interpretation of the myth?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/yAVFV.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://ancient-greece.org/art/amphipolis-mosaic.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15607" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4703" RevisionGUID="95c475d2-d5ab-4b24-a768-bc627d5a8a51" CreationDate="2018-04-09T13:53:34.647" UserId="4271" Text="Who said Hermes helped Hades?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15608" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4703" RevisionGUID="95c475d2-d5ab-4b24-a768-bc627d5a8a51" CreationDate="2018-04-09T13:53:34.647" UserId="4271" Text="|myth-identification|hades|hermes|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15609" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4702" RevisionGUID="4dec7278-826c-4840-969a-a51e7e65aee4" CreationDate="2018-04-09T13:56:28.527" UserId="4271" Comment="added 9 characters in body" Text="Before Atlas held up the sky Ouranos was still alive so basically he kept the sky from falling. But after Kronos over through, him Hyperion, Krios, Koios and Iapetos held up the sky from the 4 corners of the Earth that they were rewarded with for helping kill their father. Upon the Titans defeat, Zeus threw them into Tartarus. Then Zeus chained Atlas and told him that because of his great strength, Atlas would have to hold the sky up himself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hope that answers your question." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15610" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4704" RevisionGUID="317aa9de-9879-489b-8f2f-19704860fb60" CreationDate="2018-04-09T14:24:53.650" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15611" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4704" RevisionGUID="317aa9de-9879-489b-8f2f-19704860fb60" CreationDate="2018-04-09T14:24:53.650" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15612" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4705" RevisionGUID="05612af4-bae6-43c4-a77d-35bba40f308b" CreationDate="2018-04-09T14:24:53.650" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15613" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4705" RevisionGUID="05612af4-bae6-43c4-a77d-35bba40f308b" CreationDate="2018-04-09T14:24:53.650" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15615" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2384" RevisionGUID="e9ffc223-a751-4168-8c9d-1b0aba99f7f9" CreationDate="2018-04-09T14:48:10.323" UserId="4271" Comment="added tag" Text="|norse|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15616" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2313" RevisionGUID="d43090dd-3d38-48a5-8621-305c48bb09c2" CreationDate="2018-04-09T14:53:46.947" UserId="4271" Comment="Capitalizing Odin" Text="Snorri Sturluson comments on this in the *Gylfaginning* (emphasis mine):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 9\. Then said Ganglere: Much had been done, it seemed to me, when heaven and earth were made, when sun and moon were set in their places, and when days were marked out; but whence came the people who inhabit the world? Har answered as follows: As Bor's sons went along the sea-strand, they found two trees. These trees they took up and made men of them. The first gave them spirit and life; the second endowed them with reason and power of motion; and the third gave them form, speech, hearing and eyesight. They gave them clothes and names; the man they called Ask, and the woman Embla. From them all mankind is descended, and a dwelling-place was given them under Midgard. In the next place, the sons of Bor made for themselves in the middle of the world a burg, which is called Asgard, and which we call Troy. There dwelt the gods and their race, and thence were wrought many tidings and adventures, both on earth and in the sky. In Asgard is a place called Hlidskjalf, and when Odin seated himself there in the high-seat, he saw over the whole world, and what every man was doing, and he knew all things that he saw. His wife hight Frigg, and she was the daughter of Fjorgvin, and from their offspring are descended the race that we call asas, who inhabited Asgard the old and the realms that lie about it, and all that race are known to be gods. **And for this reason Odin is called Alfather, that he is the father of all gods and men, and of all things that were made by him and by his might.** Jord (earth) was his daughter and his wife; with her he begat his first son, and that is Asa-Thor. To him was given force and strength, whereby he conquers all things quick.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Prose Edda/Gylfaginning. (2016, February 8). In Wikisource . Retrieved 09:06, January 20, 2017, from https://en.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning&amp;oldid=6105167&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Earlier on, Har (yet another manifestation of Odin) informs us that the epithet is Odin's name in the language of the gods, and thus the first in the [very long line of his names][1] (emphasis mine): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 3\. Ganglere then made the following question: Who is the highest and oldest of all the gods? Made answer Har: **Alfather he is called in our tongue, but in Asgard of old he had twelve names. The first is Alfather, the second is Herran or Herjan, the third Nikar or Hnikar, the fourth Nikuz or Hnikud, the fifth Fjolner, the sixth Oske, the seventh Ome, the eighth Biflide or Biflinde, the ninth Svidar, the tenth Svidrer, the eleventh Vidrer, the twelfth Jalg or Jalk.** Ganglere asks again: Where is this god? What can he do? What mighty works has he accomplished? Answered Har: He lives from everlasting to everlasting, rules over all his realm, and governs all things, great and small. Then remarked Jafnhar: He made heaven and earth, the air and all things in them. Thride added: What is most important, he made man and gave him a spirit, which shall live, and never perish, though the body may turn to dust or burn to ashes. All who live a life of virtue shall dwell with him in Gimle or Vingolf. The wicked, on the other hand, go to Hel, and from her to Niflhel, that is, down into the ninth world. Then asked Ganglere: What was he doing before heaven and earth were made? Har gave answer: Then was he with the frost-giants.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odin did produce [a great number of sons][2], but he certainly didn't father every god in Norse mythology. And although he did have a hand in the creation of man, he wasn't the only god involved in it. Hoenir and Lodurr also played a role in the tale of Ask and Embla. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why Allfather then? I think it would be a fair to assume that the epithet is more of an honorific title, emphasizing Odin's role as leader of the Aesir, patriarch of gods and men. It is the simpler answer, and the one that would be correct even if there was a deeper meaning to the name.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, at least four of the Aesir (Heimdallr, Hod, Tyr, Bragi) are only mentioned as sons of Odin by Snorri. Whether this is by accident or a conscious effort to emphasize Odin's role as a father figure and elevate him even further from the rest of the gods is anyone's guess. But a case could perhaps be made that Snorri's general tendency of presenting Odin as creator and omnipotent may be a sign of Christian influence. Placing Odin firmly above everyone and everything else could possibly be a step towards reconciling the Norse and Christian traditions. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lastly, the epithet may very well be a reminder of Odin's simpler past. Tacitus records Odin worship amongst the Germanic people in the late 1st century, and for all we know Odin may have indeed been the father of all gods of a presumably far simpler Germanic pantheon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_names_of_Odin&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sons_of_Odin" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15617" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2287" RevisionGUID="5b19b11e-4f65-4116-bb38-12326e20e696" CreationDate="2018-04-09T14:56:22.710" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15618" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4706" RevisionGUID="767133b2-9196-4e80-a07f-47c97a4268d7" CreationDate="2018-04-09T15:50:49.017" UserId="4271" Text="Soulmates or true love are common themes in stories, movies/tv shows and such. I was just wondering if it had any roots from ancient times. I limit my question to these four Mythologies" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15619" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4706" RevisionGUID="767133b2-9196-4e80-a07f-47c97a4268d7" CreationDate="2018-04-09T15:50:49.017" UserId="4271" Text="Did the Babylonians, Norse Vikings, Japanese or Greeks have a concept of a soulmate?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15620" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4706" RevisionGUID="767133b2-9196-4e80-a07f-47c97a4268d7" CreationDate="2018-04-09T15:50:49.017" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|norse|japanese|babylonian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15622" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4707" RevisionGUID="c2a285d5-ecb8-4b87-9784-db40b4ee5dd2" CreationDate="2018-04-09T17:00:54.507" UserId="3989" Text="The only *locus classicus* I can think of for the notion of a soul-mate is Aristophanes&amp;rsquo;speech in [Plato&amp;rsquo;s *Symposium* 189c][1]&amp;ndash;193d, which does spin a kind of myth to account for it (and for human sexual love more generally, both homo- and heterosexual). But I don't think anyone pretends that it was ever established in communal or tribal oral tradition; it is rather a joke, a burlesque contributed by a comic genius at a party that turned into a competitive round of encomia on Eros. Aristophanes proposes that the human form was once effectively double what it is now, with four each of legs and arms, two faces on one head, and two sets of genitalia, all based around a globular torso. These proto-humans grew to rival the gods in power, so Zeus decreed that they be literally cut down to size, by bisection. The wound was closed (the skin cinched together at the navel), and smoothed over, and became the front (anterior) side of the modern torso, the face being turned to that side also so that we would be forced to contemplate what had been done, as a warning. Sexual love with its embracings (especially front-to-front) is our way of trying to undo this bisection; and the most perfectly matched pairs (whether homo- or heterosexual) are cases where the halves of a single proto-human have somehow found each other. (That the bisection presumably occurred many generations ago, and none of the proto-humans has actually existed since, is a chronological flaw in this theory that Aristophanes does nothing to repair.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would argue that this burlesque &amp;ldquo;myth&amp;rdquo; itself constitutes evidence that the notion of soul-mate love ran so counter to ancient Greek notions of and attitudes about love as to seem inherently ridiculous. Hence I think we can tentatively infer that the apparent absence of the soul-mate idea from other, more organic Greek myths is no mere accident of (non-)transmission.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0174%3Atext%3DSym.%3Asection%3D189c" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15626" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4709" RevisionGUID="e81e8efa-4d7f-4354-83ed-82880f78fa59" CreationDate="2018-04-09T19:43:09.487" UserId="4525" Text="In Slavic mythology dragons can speak, they command armies and rule over lands. They can assume human form and do not hoard gold for the most part. Some dragons are more bestial and have several heads, but some can speak. &#xA;&#xA;I am sorry that I gave no examples, but I currently don't have the books for reference.&#xA;&#xA;In Greek mythology most things that are similar to dragons are beasts. Hydra can't speak, I never heard that Scylla or Charybdis could speak. Basilisks can't speak. So no speaking reptiles that I know of. (Was the villain from Perseus a lizard? Like in the films.)&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15627" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4710" RevisionGUID="d9b9e3fc-6141-462c-981b-a34be2070368" CreationDate="2018-04-09T22:58:44.900" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15628" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4710" RevisionGUID="d9b9e3fc-6141-462c-981b-a34be2070368" CreationDate="2018-04-09T22:58:44.900" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15629" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4711" RevisionGUID="7022cc09-d509-4f34-9f74-4d9137a1b870" CreationDate="2018-04-09T22:58:44.900" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15630" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4711" RevisionGUID="7022cc09-d509-4f34-9f74-4d9137a1b870" CreationDate="2018-04-09T22:58:44.900" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15631" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="4698" RevisionGUID="befd62bc-d79a-4f9f-b21e-f93bff2938ff" CreationDate="2018-04-09T23:43:53.487" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="Added some tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|folklore|slavic|russian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15632" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4698" RevisionGUID="befd62bc-d79a-4f9f-b21e-f93bff2938ff" CreationDate="2018-04-09T23:43:53.487" Comment="Proposed by 4660 approved by 183 edit id of 1609" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15633" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4709" RevisionGUID="4530884e-abc7-430e-854a-0511d7c387cf" CreationDate="2018-04-10T09:32:24.677" UserId="4525" Comment="Calibos is fictional you dum dum" Text="In Slavic mythology dragons can speak, they command armies and rule over lands. They can assume human form and do not hoard gold for the most part. Some dragons are more bestial and have several heads, but some can speak. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am sorry that I gave no examples, but I currently don't have the books for reference.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Greek mythology most things that are similar to dragons are beasts. Hydra can't speak, I never heard that Scylla or Charybdis could speak. Basilisks can't speak. So no speaking reptiles that I know of.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15634" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4709" RevisionGUID="d5b456ea-a863-4090-ab08-bf80890bfbbc" CreationDate="2018-04-10T09:59:06.167" UserId="4525" Comment="Chinese dwagons" Text="In Slavic mythology dragons can speak, they command armies and rule over lands. They can assume human form and do not hoard gold for the most part. Some dragons are more bestial and have several heads, but some can speak. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am sorry that I gave no examples, but I currently don't have the books for reference.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Greek mythology most things that are similar to dragons are beasts. Hydra can't speak, I never heard that Scylla or Charybdis could speak. Basilisks can't speak. So no speaking reptiles that I know of.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;EDIT: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Chinese dragons can clearly speak, such as Ao Guang. (He is more like a god, but Chinese dragons have a different position from European dragons.) They seem to gather treasures (Ao Guang was rich), but it seems that they are more interested in rarity, so it is more like a collection. In Journey to the West, Ao Guang gives Sun Wukong many magical items. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So they can speak, they can rule, they have a palace. European dragons almost look like barbarians next to them." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15635" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4707" RevisionGUID="cc83f370-1f99-4895-a701-465a9cd7bed6" CreationDate="2018-04-10T15:54:20.740" UserId="3989" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="The only *locus classicus* I can think of for the notion of a soul-mate is Aristophanes&amp;rsquo; speech in [Plato&amp;rsquo;s *Symposium* 189c][1]&amp;ndash;193d, which does spin a kind of myth to account for it (and for human sexual love more generally, both homo- and heterosexual). But I don't think anyone pretends that it was ever established in communal or tribal oral tradition; it is rather a joke, a burlesque contributed by a comic genius at a party that turned into a competitive round of encomia on Eros. Aristophanes proposes that the human form was once effectively double what it is now, with four each of legs and arms, two faces on one head, and two sets of genitalia, all based around a globular torso. These proto-humans grew to rival the gods in power, so Zeus decreed that they be literally cut down to size, by bisection. The wound was closed (the skin cinched together at the navel), and smoothed over, and became the front (anterior) side of the modern torso, the face being turned to that side also so that we would be forced to contemplate what had been done, as a warning. Sexual love with its embracings (especially front-to-front) is our way of trying to undo this bisection; and the most perfectly matched pairs (whether homo- or heterosexual) are cases where the halves of a single proto-human have somehow found each other. (That the bisection presumably occurred many generations ago, and none of the proto-humans has actually existed since, is a chronological flaw in this theory that Aristophanes does nothing to repair.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would argue that this burlesque &amp;ldquo;myth&amp;rdquo; itself constitutes evidence that the notion of soul-mate love ran so counter to ancient Greek notions of and attitudes about love as to seem inherently ridiculous. Hence I think we can tentatively infer that the apparent absence of the soul-mate idea from other, more organic Greek myths is no mere accident of (non-)transmission.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0174%3Atext%3DSym.%3Asection%3D189c" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15636" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4712" RevisionGUID="1a4e002d-5684-477a-bc15-d21507cd2fcc" CreationDate="2018-04-10T16:27:05.337" UserId="3238" Text="I'm searching for a list of cultures/regions which worshiped/revered boars. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I only know of Hinduism of the Indian Subcontinent, where an avatar of Lord Vishnu, [Varaha](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varaha) is worshiped. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further, I'm only aware of the excavations of idols of Varaha in the Indian subcontinent, so if there are any in other regions (even if pertaining to Hinduism), I'd like to know about that too.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks in advance." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15637" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4712" RevisionGUID="1a4e002d-5684-477a-bc15-d21507cd2fcc" CreationDate="2018-04-10T16:27:05.337" UserId="3238" Text="Which cultures worship Boars?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15638" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4712" RevisionGUID="1a4e002d-5684-477a-bc15-d21507cd2fcc" CreationDate="2018-04-10T16:27:05.337" UserId="3238" Text="|hindu|mythohistory|animals|worship|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15639" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="4712" RevisionGUID="59a471a7-ca08-4b77-843e-eeb9fb0307a1" CreationDate="2018-04-10T16:56:40.087" UserId="3238" Comment="edited tags" Text="|comparative|hindu|mythohistory|animals|worship|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15640" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4712" RevisionGUID="59a471a7-ca08-4b77-843e-eeb9fb0307a1" CreationDate="2018-04-10T16:56:40.087" UserId="3238" Comment="edited tags" Text="Which cultures worship boars?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15642" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4711" RevisionGUID="23f63b6f-5acd-46e9-9980-458244ab003e" CreationDate="2018-04-10T22:44:22.360" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="added 51 characters in body" Text="For questions about Russian mythology and folklore." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15643" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4711" RevisionGUID="23f63b6f-5acd-46e9-9980-458244ab003e" CreationDate="2018-04-10T22:44:22.360" Comment="Proposed by 4660 approved by 967, 2892 edit id of 1607" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15644" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4705" RevisionGUID="d38619d8-3802-453f-ad86-eb2962f499cb" CreationDate="2018-04-10T22:44:28.663" UserId="4271" Comment="added 79 characters in body" Text="For questions pertaining to reoccurring elements in Mythology, folklore or art." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15645" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4705" RevisionGUID="d38619d8-3802-453f-ad86-eb2962f499cb" CreationDate="2018-04-10T22:44:28.663" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 967, 2892 edit id of 1606" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15647" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="523" RevisionGUID="8c698323-7adc-4b01-828a-c8ef889f12e5" CreationDate="2018-04-11T02:57:45.247" UserId="2807" Comment="Changed 'greek' tag to 'roman'" Text="Hephaestus and Medusa had a son named Cacus.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**Cacus was the son of Hephaestus and Medusa**. Inheriting the properties of fire from his father and monstrousness from his mother, Cacus was a fire-breathing monster who was sometimes described as a three-headed giant. He lived on human flesh and decorated his cave with the bones and skulls of his victims.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; source: [Cacus Versus Heracles by Nancy Conner, PhD](https://books.google.com/books?id=PGsRwPgxMikC&amp;pg=PT218#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false) &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How were Hephaestus and Cacus shielded from being turned to stone? Does being a God shield them?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15648" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="523" RevisionGUID="8c698323-7adc-4b01-828a-c8ef889f12e5" CreationDate="2018-04-11T02:57:45.247" UserId="2807" Comment="Changed 'greek' tag to 'roman'" Text="|mythical-creatures|roman|medusa|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15649" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="523" RevisionGUID="8c698323-7adc-4b01-828a-c8ef889f12e5" CreationDate="2018-04-11T02:57:45.247" Comment="Proposed by 2807 approved by -1 edit id of 1612" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15650" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="523" RevisionGUID="0167d9f1-3957-4ce4-a656-04513b310653" CreationDate="2018-04-11T02:57:45.247" UserId="2682" Comment="Changed 'greek' tag to 'roman'" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|roman|medusa|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15651" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4713" RevisionGUID="6d731e2b-7a04-44f0-9417-18ff22964a4e" CreationDate="2018-04-11T03:31:15.973" UserId="2807" Text="After beheading Medusa, Perseus uses her head to turn Atlas, the sea monster Cetus, and King Polydectes of Seriphus to stone. Then Perseus gives the Gorgon's head to the goddess Athena, who places it on her shield.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was this petrifying power of Medusa's head ever used by Athena?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15652" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4713" RevisionGUID="6d731e2b-7a04-44f0-9417-18ff22964a4e" CreationDate="2018-04-11T03:31:15.973" UserId="2807" Text="Was King Polydectes the last petrified by Medusa?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15653" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4713" RevisionGUID="6d731e2b-7a04-44f0-9417-18ff22964a4e" CreationDate="2018-04-11T03:31:15.973" UserId="2807" Text="|greek|medusa|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15654" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4713" RevisionGUID="6ab9c01e-177b-49fd-bb51-0294a475267b" CreationDate="2018-04-11T04:19:22.667" UserId="2807" Comment="edited body" Text="After beheading Medusa, Perseus uses her head to turn Atlas, the sea monster Cetus, and King Polydectes of Seriphos to stone. Then Perseus gives the Gorgon's head to the goddess Athena, who places it on her shield.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was this petrifying power of Medusa's head ever used by Athena?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15656" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4714" RevisionGUID="e88fb925-0781-486a-9415-4793034aeac5" CreationDate="2018-04-11T17:15:36.797" UserId="4271" Text="It is said that four elements are needed to make a Philosopher's Stone. These are derived from the first matter associated with Chaos. I also heard once that the water of life was needed, which, back then, meant alcohol." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15657" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4714" RevisionGUID="e88fb925-0781-486a-9415-4793034aeac5" CreationDate="2018-04-11T17:15:36.797" UserId="4271" Text="What is needed to make a Philosopher's Stone?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15658" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4714" RevisionGUID="e88fb925-0781-486a-9415-4793034aeac5" CreationDate="2018-04-11T17:15:36.797" UserId="4271" Text="|objects|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15659" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4715" RevisionGUID="714cd866-28e0-4cf0-b893-36b778561f37" CreationDate="2018-04-11T17:49:23.757" UserId="4271" Text="Is it ever said what kind of tree the world tree was? By kind, I mean type. Is it: oak, laurel, plane, sequaia...?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15660" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4715" RevisionGUID="714cd866-28e0-4cf0-b893-36b778561f37" CreationDate="2018-04-11T17:49:23.757" UserId="4271" Text="Is it said what kind of tree it is?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15661" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4715" RevisionGUID="714cd866-28e0-4cf0-b893-36b778561f37" CreationDate="2018-04-11T17:49:23.757" UserId="4271" Text="|norse|yggdrasil|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15662" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4716" RevisionGUID="6d47c73a-a101-439f-94b0-43aa7421ce05" CreationDate="2018-04-11T17:58:30.707" UserId="4271" Text="On the [Wikipedia page][1], under a depiction of Odin is a caption. The caption calls Odin the Wanderer, gives the year made and artist. It is mention again at the end, saying J.R.R. Tolkien used Odin's Wanderer guise as inspiration. But, it doesn't why he is called that.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odin" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15663" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4716" RevisionGUID="6d47c73a-a101-439f-94b0-43aa7421ce05" CreationDate="2018-04-11T17:58:30.707" UserId="4271" Text="Why is Odin called the Wanderer?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15664" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4716" RevisionGUID="6d47c73a-a101-439f-94b0-43aa7421ce05" CreationDate="2018-04-11T17:58:30.707" UserId="4271" Text="|norse|odin|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15665" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4717" RevisionGUID="3139b575-af5a-43e8-93eb-ed7611d120b9" CreationDate="2018-04-11T18:18:37.717" UserId="4271" Text="Did the Norse gods have children with mortals/humans as in Greek Mythology? Who were they? What did they do?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15666" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4717" RevisionGUID="3139b575-af5a-43e8-93eb-ed7611d120b9" CreationDate="2018-04-11T18:18:37.717" UserId="4271" Text="Demigods in Norse Mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15667" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4717" RevisionGUID="3139b575-af5a-43e8-93eb-ed7611d120b9" CreationDate="2018-04-11T18:18:37.717" UserId="4271" Text="|norse|demi-gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15668" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4718" RevisionGUID="1c9b519e-4084-4539-ac07-152299c398c8" CreationDate="2018-04-11T20:28:15.147" UserId="666" Text="**It's an ash tree**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In e.g. *Völuspá*, stanza 19, this is explicitly stated:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; An ash I know, &lt;br&gt; Yggdrasil its name ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Translation: [Henry Adams Bellow][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe03.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15669" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4719" RevisionGUID="5bfaf38c-1a65-4651-ab82-821681a07d9d" CreationDate="2018-04-11T20:58:41.443" UserId="666" Text="Odin is called &quot;wanderer&quot; already in some of the primary sources. Wikipedia has a very handy [list of names of Odin][1], in which we can find at least three which has the meaning of &quot;wanderer&quot;: *Gangleri*, *Váfuðr* and *Vegtam*. The two first of these appear in *Grímnismál* and *Gylfaginning* (where also, amusingly, the king Gylfi who is trying to ferret out the secrets of the gods is calling himself *Gangleri*), the third in *Baldrs draumar*. Despite owning Sleipnir, the best of all horses, there are several stories which depict Odin out on wanderings, often in disguise, so the name is apt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(However, there is also something that is clearly wrong with the caption of the image you're referring to. It's presented as a proper name for the drawing, when it is in fact only a description.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_names_of_Odin&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15670" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4720" RevisionGUID="7f1b3d60-5d04-4717-8c3e-6146e17e195c" CreationDate="2018-04-11T21:29:49.313" UserId="666" Text="They mostly had children of their own.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most famous such coupling is that of [Rígsþula][1], which tells the story of how Heimdall, calling himself Rig, visits the homes of three different human couples, and sleeps in the same bed as them. After nine months, a boy is born, of which we are told a bit of his history, his marriage to a suitable girl, and the names of their children. We are told from these godchildren, the lines of thralls, of the freemen, and of the lords came.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other sources, more historical or genealogical, trace the ancestry of specific lords back to the gods. Most known of these is perhaps that of the Ynglings, the kings of Sweden, with a cadet branch in Norway, who traced their line to Frey. We know this from *[Ynglingatal][2]*, and Snorri's retelling in *Ynglinga saga* in *Heimskringla.* Similarly, the [jarls at Lade][3] are in *[Háleygjatal][4]* said to be descended from Odin and the giantess Skadi. The [Skyldings][5] in Denmark also were said to be descended from Odin, as were the legendary [Völsungs][6]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of those born directly to the gods, I only know any stories about [Fjölnir][7], first of the Ynglings, and [Sigi][8], the ancestor of the Völsungs, and they are short: Sigi was banished for murder, and became king in the land of the Franks or possibly in that of the Huns. Fjölnir instead ruled his kingdom in peace, and on a visit to king Frode in Denmark, drowned in a vat of mead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%ADgs%C3%BEula&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ynglingatal&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earls_of_Lade&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haleygjatal&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scylding&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lsunga_saga&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fj%C3%B6lnir&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigi" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15671" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="4689" RevisionGUID="938b8826-284d-47c7-a2c8-5fd708969b6c" CreationDate="2018-04-12T11:24:35.897" UserId="4934" Comment="65" />
  <row Id="15672" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4689" RevisionGUID="41a2d061-0891-4d08-9e08-fa649837f6dd" CreationDate="2018-04-12T13:12:51.507" UserId="4271" Comment="edited title" Text="A battle between Maxsimo and Digenis in Greek Folklore" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15673" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4721" RevisionGUID="a0103e41-2e11-4d5c-82eb-1c566edb1416" CreationDate="2018-04-12T14:53:49.773" UserId="292" Text="None of the quotes relating to Cacus on [Theoi.com][1] mention who his mother was, only that his father was Hephaistos. Cacus was only known for trying to steal Hercules' cattle, and as a minor character he wasn't provided with a lot of backstory, which might explain why we know so little about him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Gigante/GiganteKakos.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15674" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4722" RevisionGUID="76a46b60-6ca6-4448-b58a-17b546b856e8" CreationDate="2018-04-12T15:05:27.847" UserId="292" Text="As Yannis says, Snorri's Edda tried to make Odin father of all the gods, perhaps because of Christian influence. Another possible reason is that he wanted to present an organized pantheon like the Greek one, instead of the patchwork of local and national cults that was [probably the real story][1].  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;Also, other sources give some of the gods different parents. Tyr had a giant father in the poem [Hymiskvida][2], and according to the [prologue][3] to Snorri's Edda, Thor was Odin's ancestor, while Heimdall was the son of nine mothers, with no father, according to a [lost poem][4] about him, which Snorri quotes. (He's our only source for it, ironically.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.academia.edu/20384683/Pantheon_What_Pantheon&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe09.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre03.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heimdalargaldr" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15675" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4722" RevisionGUID="2ced4015-9592-42fc-9deb-d157b395e9d6" CreationDate="2018-04-12T15:16:57.113" UserId="292" Comment="added 9 characters in body" Text="As Yannis says, Snorri's Edda tried to make Odin father of all the gods, perhaps because of Christian influence. Another possible reason is that he wanted to present an organized pantheon like the Greek one, instead of the patchwork of local and national cults that was [probably the real story][1].  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;Also, other sources give some of the gods different parents. Tyr had a giant father in the poem [Hymiskvida][2], and according to the [prologue][3] to Snorri's Edda, Thor was Odin's ancestor, while according to a [lost poem][4] about him, which Snorri quotes says Heimdall was the son of nine mothers, with no father. (Snorri is our only source for it, ironically.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.academia.edu/20384683/Pantheon_What_Pantheon&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe09.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre03.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heimdalargaldr" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15676" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4689" RevisionGUID="f5259300-f684-4d5b-aefa-3103ab33a5e5" CreationDate="2018-04-12T16:54:23.993" UserId="4934" Comment="deleted 1 character in body; edited title" Text="While working on an essay, I came across a book called the &quot;The study of Russian folklore&quot; which mentions encounters between an Amazon Maximo and Digenis Akritas and also between Siegfried and a warrior maiden in which the belligerents make love after the battle. Was it consensual sex or rape? Where can I find more information about these encounters?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15677" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4689" RevisionGUID="f5259300-f684-4d5b-aefa-3103ab33a5e5" CreationDate="2018-04-12T16:54:23.993" UserId="4934" Comment="deleted 1 character in body; edited title" Text="A battle between Maximo and Digenis in Greek Folklore" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15678" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4723" RevisionGUID="20a284f4-a3c6-4c40-b21f-a8d385fc618f" CreationDate="2018-04-12T18:01:19.860" UserId="4271" Text="She is a Mahavidya, a list of Sakta and Buddhist goddesses, and the sixth listed on the [Wikipedia page][1]. (I don't know if that's important.) Here, she is described as the 'self-decapitated Goddess.' What is the legend/myth behind this title?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahavidya" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15679" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4723" RevisionGUID="20a284f4-a3c6-4c40-b21f-a8d385fc618f" CreationDate="2018-04-12T18:01:19.860" UserId="4271" Text="Why is Chhinnamasta called The self-decapitated Goddess?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15680" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4723" RevisionGUID="20a284f4-a3c6-4c40-b21f-a8d385fc618f" CreationDate="2018-04-12T18:01:19.860" UserId="4271" Text="|myth-identification|hindu|buddhist|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15681" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4724" RevisionGUID="2b24865f-694d-40c0-9e53-4e745b903139" CreationDate="2018-04-12T19:16:33.620" UserId="4271" Text="[Here][1], it briefly mentions her, saying no one can match Digenes, not even Maximo with whom he committed the sin of adultery (non-forced sex with a married person). [This][2] source describes them as lovers, but also mentions that it could have been against her will. But, on literature stack exchange, an answer to [this question][3] says there is nothing to imply sex was forced. It portrays her, after being defeated the seconded time, saying she is a virgin, he alone has conquered her and he shall also win her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://hfc-worldwide.org/blog/2015/01/29/digenis-akrites/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.ascsa.edu.gr/pdf/uploads/hesperia/147182.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://literature.stackexchange.com/questions/5992/why-did-maximou-behave-in-this-way-towards-digenis-akrites?utm_medium=organic&amp;utm_source=google_rich_qa&amp;utm_campaign=google_rich_qa" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15682" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4725" RevisionGUID="8d951f51-c533-4b79-ae52-239c3d5aa23a" CreationDate="2018-04-12T19:18:45.487" UserId="2807" Text="I've found at least one case while reading [Petrifaction in mythology and fiction][1] in Wikipedia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Iodame, a priestess at the temple of Athena Itonia, daughter of Itonus and granddaughter of Amphictyon, who was turned into stone one night that Athena appeared in front of her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Pausanias, in Description of Greece:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Iodama, who served the goddess as priestess, entered the precinct by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; night, where there appeared to her Athena, upon whose tunic was worked&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the head of Medusa the Gorgon. When Iodama saw it, she was turned to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stone. For this reason a woman puts fire every day on the altar of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Iodama, and as she does this she thrice repeats in the Boeotian&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dialect that Iodama is living and asking for fire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Source][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrifaction_in_mythology_and_fiction&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Paus.+9.34&amp;fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0160" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15683" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4713" RevisionGUID="9128aa9a-486f-4347-a9fc-d262f2920871" CreationDate="2018-04-12T19:18:48.213" UserId="2807" Comment="Added 'athena' tag, edited body" Text="After beheading Medusa, Perseus uses her head to turn the Titan Atlas, the sea monster Cetus, and King Polydectes of Seriphos to stone. Perseus then gives the head of the Gorgon to the goddess Athena, who places it on her shield.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was this petrifying power of Medusa's head ever used by Athena?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15684" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="4713" RevisionGUID="9128aa9a-486f-4347-a9fc-d262f2920871" CreationDate="2018-04-12T19:18:48.213" UserId="2807" Comment="Added 'athena' tag, edited body" Text="|greek|athena|medusa|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15688" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4727" RevisionGUID="fbf2ffec-acea-4815-a779-44579757bf53" CreationDate="2018-04-12T19:55:50.733" UserId="4963" Text="maybe she was going to ask Hades or the Chinese Yama, remember that the Japanese underworld shared various similitude with Greek underworld and various gods came from adaptations of china and India. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15690" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4706" RevisionGUID="c23e5149-6b69-4901-9820-3c0d2ece41c4" CreationDate="2018-04-13T17:04:45.050" UserId="4271" Comment="added 58 characters in body" Text="Soulmates or true love are common themes in stories, movies/tv shows and such. I was just wondering if it had any roots from ancient times. I limit my question to these four Mythologies in tags, but other cultures may be accepted as an answer." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15693" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="2904" RevisionGUID="3d08d86a-6aa1-4fb5-bcc5-ac9b5a3a3bec" CreationDate="2018-04-13T18:32:11.473" UserId="-1" Comment="64" />
  <row Id="15697" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4729" RevisionGUID="18145297-f9e8-4e57-b6d2-2106e0536497" CreationDate="2018-04-13T20:58:57.997" UserId="2807" Text="First result in a quick Google search brings Ancient History Encyclopedia article on [Hera][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the Iliad, Hera mentions three cities particularly dear to her -&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Argos, Sparta, and Mycenae** (or Mykene).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia article on [Hera][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;The three cities I love best,&quot; the ox-eyed Queen of Heaven declares&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Iliad, book iv) &quot;are **Argos, Sparta and Mycenae** of the broad streets.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Iliad:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then in answer to him spake ox-eyed, queenly Hera:“Verily have I three&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cities that are far dearest in my sight, **Argos and Sparta and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; broad-wayed Mycenae**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Hom. Il. 4.50][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't know why she liked Sparta or Mycenae, but Argos had been always her town, where her cult was particularly strong. Homer refers to her sometimes as &quot;Argive Hera&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can read more in Wikipedia article about the [Heraion of Argos][4].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.ancient.eu/Hera/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hera#Cult&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D4%3Acard%3D50&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraion_of_Argos" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15698" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4730" RevisionGUID="d5404f8d-82e2-46ea-89f5-e8660e13d2ed" CreationDate="2018-04-13T22:10:37.347" UserId="2682" Text="There are instances of petrification (or, if you like, *petrifaction*) stories which chronologically would have occurred after the demise of Polydectes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Attempting to Explain Athena Itonia and Iodama**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First there is the weird story of Iodama (or Iodameia), from the neighbourhood of Coroneia and Alalcomenae in Boeotia, related by Pausanias, which you have noted in your own Answer to the Question. I call it weird because there is no context given for the circumstances of this petrification, considering that Iodama is a priestess of Athena. Why does the goddess do this to her?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And also it is narrated ambiguously enough so that it is unclear whether we are to understand that in Athena Itonia's temple there is a lifelike statue of a woman which is supposed to be the surprised Iodama, now sort of worshipped as a minor divinity. Such a detail is the sort of thing with which Pausanias would usually not fail to engage us.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only attempt at an explanation of this that I have come across is in Robert Graves' book *The Greek Myths*, in which he presents two ideas regarding the matter. His first suggestion is that this is a different version of the tale in which Athena accidentally kills her own sister, or foster-sister, Pallas daughter of Triton.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The way Graves tells it, Athena is called Itonia here as a patronymic, because Itonus is her father, which makes her Iodama's sister. The other suggestion is that Iodama was trespassing into Athena Itonia's precinct by venturing into it in the night-time, where, so it would seem, Athena was not expecting to meet her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Iodama, probably meaning 'heifer calf of Io', will have been an&#xD;&#xA;&gt; antique stone image of the Moon-goddess...  and the story of her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; petrification is a warning to inquisitive girls against violating the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mysteries.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or at least that is what Graves would like to believe about that (p. 47). Incidentally, there is a much more explicit tradition regarding an alternate fatherhood of Athena from the neighbouring village of Alalkomenai, which was named after an Autochthon (a man born directly from the ground) called Alalcomenes. The villagers here said that Alalcomenes was the father of Athena or at least that he and his wife raised the goddess. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Introduction to Athena's Father Pallas**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In yet one more alternate Athena origin story, mentioned by the Roman writer Cicero, as well as by Clement of Alexandria, there were five different versions of the goddess. One of these was the daughter of an Oceanid named Titanis (meaning simply &quot;female Titan&quot;) while her father was called Pallas. It is ambiguous whether this Pallas is supposed to have been the winged Titan who married the river Styx and became by her the father of Victory (Nike), Jealousy (Zelos), Might (Kratos) and Violence (Bia), or if the Pallas in view is a winged Giant among those who waged war against the gods and paid for it with their lives.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At any rate, in this version, Athena's own father Pallas tried to rape her and was killed for this presumption, whereupon the goddess then flayed his leathery corpse, which was somewhat like that of a goat, and used his skin as casing for her breastplate or shield, the Aegis, whose name is connected with the Greek word for *goat*. She placed his wings on her feet and used them to fly like Hermes. If the Pallas envisioned here is the Titan, then Athena probably represents war, to match up with her siblings, the four winged Titans of conquest, zeal, power and force.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Gigantic Combatants**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going back to the petrification issue, for the Roman version of the death of the Giant Pallas, the poet Claudian paints quite the scene in his *Gigantomachia*, &quot;Giants' War.&quot; During the Giants' attack on the stronghold of the gods, four Giants rushed against Minerva, the Roman Athena. She was wearing Medusa's head on her breastplate, and when the first Giant, Pallas, charged against her, Minerva &quot;needed not to use a spear&quot; because just the sight of the breastplate turned Pallas to stone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Bewildered by this, Pallas' brother, another Giant named Damastor, scrambled for a weapon to use in the fight. Failing to think of anything better, he grabbed the petrified corpse of Pallas and launced it as a missile upon the gods. Presumably this did not end well for him, though Claudian does not say, instead skipping forward to another Giant named Echion: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Echion, marveling, all ignorant, at his brother’s death, even as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he seeks to assail the author of the deed, turned his gaze upon you,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; goddess, whom alone no man may see twice. Beaten audacity well&#xD;&#xA;&gt; deserved its punishment and in death he learned to know the goddess.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That is also vague but implies that Echion, like Pallas, was turned to stone by Medusa's head.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The fourth and final attacker of Minerva was the Giant Palleneus (merely another version of Pallas?), who flailed with a sword, wildly, at the goddess. When he had drawn close enough Minerva struck him with her own sword. At the same time his lower half, which was composed of giant snakes, looked at the Gorgon's head and froze into stone, &quot;so that one part of the body was killed by a weapon and another part by a mere look.&quot; (See [Lines 91-113](http://www.theoi.com/Text/ClaudianGigantomachy.html).)      " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15699" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4631" RevisionGUID="1d72eac3-f777-4189-9f3a-2010658dce3a" CreationDate="2018-04-13T23:07:20.137" UserId="2807" Comment="Fixed typo in title" Text="Chiron is a half-brother to Hestia, Hades, Poseidon, Hera, and Demeter. He is the son of Cronus and Philyra, an Oceanid. But, when was this consummation made? Before, after or during Cronus and Rhea were parenting the next generation of gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15700" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4631" RevisionGUID="1d72eac3-f777-4189-9f3a-2010658dce3a" CreationDate="2018-04-13T23:07:20.137" UserId="2807" Comment="Fixed typo in title" Text="Is Chiron older or younger than the Olympians?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15701" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4631" RevisionGUID="1d72eac3-f777-4189-9f3a-2010658dce3a" CreationDate="2018-04-13T23:07:20.137" Comment="Proposed by 2807 approved by 2682, 1241 edit id of 1613" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15703" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4731" RevisionGUID="3e6e469b-e474-4921-8ac7-d3389a5ab513" CreationDate="2018-04-14T01:24:07.877" UserId="4271" Text="History places the flood Myths as a culture's way to explian the end of the last ice age. This happened about 10,000 years ago. But, this book I'm reading (The Chronicles of the Imaginarium Geographica, BK 2, THE SEARCH FOR THE READ DRAGON) places Deucalion's flood (Greek flood) about 1600 BC, the beginning of the Bronze Age. And that got me thinking, when (what year, if given) do Mythologies place their flood Myth? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15704" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4731" RevisionGUID="3e6e469b-e474-4921-8ac7-d3389a5ab513" CreationDate="2018-04-14T01:24:07.877" UserId="4271" Text="When are the flood Myths in Mythologies?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15705" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4731" RevisionGUID="3e6e469b-e474-4921-8ac7-d3389a5ab513" CreationDate="2018-04-14T01:24:07.877" UserId="4271" Text="|comparative|mythohistory|flood-myth|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15706" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4732" RevisionGUID="a5f3491b-9266-4071-98c1-00922e62df1d" CreationDate="2018-04-14T06:58:07.830" UserId="4968" Text="Aphrodite was the goddess of love. She was described as exceedingly beautiful. And no matter what happens, she was going to get lovers. By giving her to Hephaestus, Zeus effectively ruled out a chance of a civil war breaking out between the gods. Obviously, Aphrodite wasn't going to be pleased by a cripple, and she would willingly have affairs with the other gods. And Hephaestus wasn't going to do anything about it. (Although he did, but that's another story) " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15709" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4733" RevisionGUID="a1c8f72c-9201-4e1c-8d90-9d0ed59c9629" CreationDate="2018-04-16T00:37:50.400" UserId="2807" Text="I was wondering if the study of ancient Greek pottery art has contributed to the field of Mythology, and how, besides the cool illustrations:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Heracles and Athena][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Heracles and Athena. Source pic: [Wikipedia][2].&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, has ancient Greek vase painting challenged any traditional view in mythology? Cleared any misconception, settled any debate?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Have modern studies found anything in ancient pottery art besides confirmation of ancient mythographers?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/aB4Pp.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Athena_Herakles_Staatliche_Antikensammlungen_2648.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15710" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4733" RevisionGUID="a1c8f72c-9201-4e1c-8d90-9d0ed59c9629" CreationDate="2018-04-16T00:37:50.400" UserId="2807" Text="Contribution of ancient Greek pottery to mythology studies" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15711" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4733" RevisionGUID="a1c8f72c-9201-4e1c-8d90-9d0ed59c9629" CreationDate="2018-04-16T00:37:50.400" UserId="2807" Text="|greek|iconography|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15712" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4734" RevisionGUID="ff660216-6fa7-4f55-bdcd-97e14f74d57a" CreationDate="2018-04-16T01:52:07.780" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15713" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4734" RevisionGUID="ff660216-6fa7-4f55-bdcd-97e14f74d57a" CreationDate="2018-04-16T01:52:07.780" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15714" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4735" RevisionGUID="dc45ed3b-9d35-4f13-ab56-99c6969a6c4f" CreationDate="2018-04-16T01:52:07.780" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15715" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4735" RevisionGUID="dc45ed3b-9d35-4f13-ab56-99c6969a6c4f" CreationDate="2018-04-16T01:52:07.780" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15716" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4736" RevisionGUID="4cd05657-a699-4617-8620-c5c043baf741" CreationDate="2018-04-16T05:13:05.467" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15717" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4736" RevisionGUID="4cd05657-a699-4617-8620-c5c043baf741" CreationDate="2018-04-16T05:13:05.467" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15718" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4737" RevisionGUID="a1b45b4e-6d23-47c7-82cf-fbedc6f9fe42" CreationDate="2018-04-16T05:13:05.467" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15719" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4737" RevisionGUID="a1b45b4e-6d23-47c7-82cf-fbedc6f9fe42" CreationDate="2018-04-16T05:13:05.467" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15720" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3329" RevisionGUID="407edcb8-6d53-456e-a21c-78483e7cdf87" CreationDate="2018-04-16T07:05:16.920" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="Corrected links.." Text="**Pride and shame**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is put best in book 12, 90-130:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[BkXXII:1-89 Priam and Hecabe fail to dissuade Hector | poetryintranslation.com][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which shows his own thinking on the issue: [bolding mine]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But his [Hector's]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; proud thoughts were troubled: ‘Alas, if I retreat through the gate, to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the safety of the wall, **Polydamas will not be slow to reproach me**,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; since he advised me to withdraw our forces to the city, on that fatal&#xD;&#xA;&gt; night when Achilles re-appeared. I refused, though it may have been&#xD;&#xA;&gt; better! Now, in my folly, having brought us to the brink of ruin, **I’d&#xD;&#xA;&gt; be ashamed to hear some insignificant Trojan, or his long-robed wife,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; say: ‘Hector has brought ruin on the army, trusting too much in his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; own right arm.’ If that’s what they’ll say, then I’d be better by far&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to meet Achilles face to face and kill him before returning to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; city, or die gloriously beneath its walls.** Of course, I could ditch&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the bossed shield and heavy helmet, lean my spear on the wall, and go&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and promise peerless Achilles to return Helen and her treasure to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Atreidae, all that Paris brought in the hollow ships to Troy, to begin&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this strife. I could say too that we’ll then divide all the remaining&#xD;&#xA;&gt; treasure in the city, and then induce the Elders to state on oath that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they’ll conceal no part of that treasure, but grant half of all the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lovely city holds. But what’s the point of such thoughts? **I’ll not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; approach him like a suppliant only to have him show neither mercy nor&#xD;&#xA;&gt; respect, but kill me out of hand, stripped of my armour and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; defenceless as a woman.** This is no lover’s tryst of lad and lass, by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; oak or rock! Lad and lass, indeed! Better to meet in bloody combat,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; now, and see to whom Zeus grants the glory!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad22.php#anchor_Toc239246419" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15721" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3329" RevisionGUID="407edcb8-6d53-456e-a21c-78483e7cdf87" CreationDate="2018-04-16T07:05:16.920" Comment="Proposed by 4660 approved by 967, 2762 edit id of 1614" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15722" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4738" RevisionGUID="78ecfb62-9d6e-44f8-9d80-2d90531a0880" CreationDate="2018-04-16T07:38:49.127" UserId="2762" Text="I'm not aware of any version of the myth that has Hermes helping hades abduct Persephone, although I'm very happy to be corrected on this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, I want to suggest an alternative interpretation from the one provided. There is a known part of this myth where all three did travel by chariot: When they were on the way out of Hades domain after Zeus had sent Hermes to tell Hades to let her go.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Example:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Making ready his chariot, Hades conveyed Persephone and Hermes back&#xD;&#xA;&gt; up through the earth until they arrived at Demeter's temple&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://owlcation.com/humanities/Demeter-and-Persephone&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know this isn't the usual interpretation given to this, I think due to the pose and expression of Persephone, but there are other possible interpretations of this. I found one version of the myth that says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The crafty Hades learned this agreement and tricked his reluctant&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bride, who was crying all day and night from despair, to eat a few&#xD;&#xA;&gt; seeds of the pomegranate fruit. This was the food of the Underworld&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and every time someone ate even a few seeds of this, then, after a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; while, **he would miss life in the Underworld.** When the gathering in front of Zeus took place and Persephone was asked where she would like to live, she answered she wanted to live with her husband.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://www.greeka.com/greece-myths/persephone.htm&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Emphasis mine)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which could be the source of the expressive longing on her face." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15723" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4730" RevisionGUID="888720fc-f46b-4d08-afda-d2052196486a" CreationDate="2018-04-16T13:26:57.257" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected spelling, fixed grammar &amp; added some details" Text="There are instances of petrification (or, if you like, *petrifaction*) stories which chronologically would have occurred after the demise of Polydectes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Attempting to Explain Athena Itonia and Iodama**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First there is the weird story of Iodama (or Iodameia), from the neighbourhood of Coroneia and Alalcomenae in Boeotia, related by Pausanias, which you have noted in your own Answer to the Question. I call it weird because there is no context given for the circumstances of this petrification, considering that Iodama is a priestess of Athena. Why does the goddess do this to her?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And also it is narrated ambiguously enough to render it unclear whether we are to understand that in Athena Itonia's temple there is a lifelike statue of a woman which is supposed to be the surprised Iodama, now venerated as somewhat of a minor divinity. Such a detail is the sort of thing with which Pausanias would usually not fail to engage us.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only attempt at an explanation of this that I have come across is in Robert Graves' book *The Greek Myths*, in which he presents two ideas regarding the matter. His first suggestion is that this is a different version of the tale in which Athena accidentally kills her own sister, or foster-sister, Pallas daughter of Triton.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The way Graves tells it, Athena is called Itonia here as a patronymic, because Itonus is her father, which makes her Iodama's sister. The other suggestion is that Iodama was trespassing into Athena Itonia's precinct by venturing into it in the night-time, where, so it would seem, Athena was not expecting to meet her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Iodama, probably meaning 'heifer calf of Io', will have been an&#xD;&#xA;&gt; antique stone image of the Moon-goddess...  and the story of her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; petrification is a warning to inquisitive girls against violating the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mysteries.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or at least that is what Graves would like to believe about that (p. 47). Incidentally, there is a much more explicit tradition regarding an alternate paternity of Athena from the neighbouring village of Alalcomenae, which was named after an Autochthon (a man born directly from the ground) called Alalcomenes. The villagers here said that Alalcomenes was the father of Athena or at least that he and his wife Athenaïs raised the goddess. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Introduction to Athena's Father Pallas**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In yet one more alternate Athena origin story, mentioned by the Roman writer Cicero, as well as by Clement of Alexandria, there were five different versions of the goddess. One of these was the daughter of an Oceanid named Titanis (meaning simply &quot;female Titan&quot;) while her father was called Pallas. It is ambiguous whether this Pallas is supposed to have been the winged Titan who married the river Styx and became by her the father of Victory (Nike), Jealousy (Zelos), Might (Kratos) and Violence (Bia), or if the Pallas in view is a winged Giant among those who waged war against the gods and paid for it with their lives.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At any rate, in this version, Athena's own father Pallas tried to rape her and was killed for this presumption, whereupon the goddess then flayed his leathery corpse, which was somewhat like that of a goat, and used his skin as casing for her breastplate or shield, the Aegis, whose name is connected with the Greek word for *goat*. She placed his wings on her feet and used them to fly like Hermes. If the Pallas envisioned here is the Titan, then Athena probably represents warcraft, to match up with her siblings, the four winged Titans of conquest, zeal, power and force.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Gigantic Combatants**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going back to the petrification issue, for the Roman version of the death of the Giant Pallas, the poet Claudian paints quite the scene in his *Gigantomachia*, &quot;Giants' War.&quot; During the Giants' attack on the stronghold of the gods, four Giants rushed against Minerva, the Roman Athena. She was wearing Medusa's head on her breastplate, and when the first Giant, Pallas, charged against her, Minerva &quot;needed not to use a spear&quot; because just the sight of the breastplate turned Pallas to stone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Bewildered by this, Pallas' brother, another Giant named Damastor, scrambled for a weapon to use in the fight. Failing to think of anything better, he grabbed the petrified corpse of Pallas and launced it as a missile upon the gods. Presumably this did not end well for him, though Claudian does not say, instead skipping forward to another Giant named Echion: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Echion, marveling, all ignorant, at his brother’s death, even as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he seeks to assail the author of the deed, turned his gaze upon you,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; goddess, whom alone no man may see twice. Beaten audacity well&#xD;&#xA;&gt; deserved its punishment and in death he learned to know the goddess.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That is also vague but implies that Echion, like Pallas, was turned to stone by Medusa's head.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The fourth and final attacker of Minerva was the Giant Palleneus (merely another version of Pallas?), who flailed with a sword, wildly, at the goddess. When he had drawn close enough Minerva struck him with her own sword. At the same time his lower half, which was composed of giant snakes, looked at the Gorgon's head and froze into stone, &quot;so that one part of the body was killed by a weapon and another part by a mere look.&quot; (See [Lines 91-113](http://www.theoi.com/Text/ClaudianGigantomachy.html).)      " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15727" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4724" RevisionGUID="ab8056c9-53b9-4946-b209-bcd8503f2085" CreationDate="2018-04-16T15:28:36.403" UserId="4271" Comment="added 377 characters in body" Text="[Here][1], it briefly mentions her, saying no one can match Digenes, not even Maximo with whom he committed the sin of adultery (non-forced sex with a married person). [This][2] source describes them as lovers, but also mentions that it could have been against her will.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But, on literature stack exchange, an answer to [this question][3] says there is nothing to imply sex was forced. It portrays her showing up with an army to win against a solitary man, Digenes. Finding this unethical, they have a one on one battle/duel. Maximo loses and Digenes spares her for her beauty. She convinces him to met the next day for another battle. Maximo is disarmed and defeated. Maximo then says, &quot;I am a virgin still by none seduced. You alone have conquered, you shall win me all...&quot; My interpretation of this is she is offering herself, rather then offering sex. But, that's what happened *willingly*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://hfc-worldwide.org/blog/2015/01/29/digenis-akrites/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.ascsa.edu.gr/pdf/uploads/hesperia/147182.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://literature.stackexchange.com/questions/5992/why-did-maximou-behave-in-this-way-towards-digenis-akrites?utm_medium=organic&amp;utm_source=google_rich_qa&amp;utm_campaign=google_rich_qa" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15730" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4741" RevisionGUID="792948b4-0d14-4744-bd59-52e2985da630" CreationDate="2018-04-16T17:19:29.740" UserId="4271" Text="Iapyx is the son of Daedalus, brother to Icarus. Apollo gave him the gift of healing and was with Aeneas as a hand-full of Trojans fled the fallen city. What more is known between/after these snippets of info. Specifically, where was Iapyx when Daedalus and Icarus were trapped in the tower by Tyrant Minos?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15731" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4741" RevisionGUID="792948b4-0d14-4744-bd59-52e2985da630" CreationDate="2018-04-16T17:19:29.740" UserId="4271" Text="What more is known of Iapyx?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15732" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4741" RevisionGUID="792948b4-0d14-4744-bd59-52e2985da630" CreationDate="2018-04-16T17:19:29.740" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|trojan-war|daedalus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15733" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4742" RevisionGUID="362e8304-f3a7-4096-8d6b-4c7f0d14e00c" CreationDate="2018-04-16T17:31:52.933" UserId="4271" Text="It doesn't make sense to me. After the rebellion by Poseidon, Hera, Athena and Apollo, Poseidon and Apollo were sent to Troy as mortals to build a wall. When they finished, Troy's king refused to honor them. This caused angst between them. Then, Cassandra refused to honor her agreement with Apollo (I give you gift of prophecy and you give me virginity/sex).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is two reasons why Apollo would side against the Trojans, so why didn't he? Does it have anything to do with Iapyx (a favorite of Apollo) being with the Trojans?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15734" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4742" RevisionGUID="362e8304-f3a7-4096-8d6b-4c7f0d14e00c" CreationDate="2018-04-16T17:31:52.933" UserId="4271" Text="What was Apollo's reason for siding with the Trojans?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15735" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4742" RevisionGUID="362e8304-f3a7-4096-8d6b-4c7f0d14e00c" CreationDate="2018-04-16T17:31:52.933" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|trojan-war|apollo|daedalus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15736" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4743" RevisionGUID="460e1cad-de9a-4f49-bf4b-b7e63847c28b" CreationDate="2018-04-16T17:49:51.453" UserId="4271" Text="When Hera, Apollo, Poseidon and Athena lead a revolt/rebellion against Zeus, they failed and were punished. Apollo and Poseidon were sent to build Troy's wall. Hera was tied upside down from the heavens. But, no punishment for Athena, Greek goddess of Wisdom, is mentioned that I have ever found. Did she get a punishment? What was it? If she wasn't punished, why not?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15737" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4743" RevisionGUID="460e1cad-de9a-4f49-bf4b-b7e63847c28b" CreationDate="2018-04-16T17:49:51.453" UserId="4271" Text="What was Athena's, Greek goddess of Wisdom, punishment?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15738" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4743" RevisionGUID="460e1cad-de9a-4f49-bf4b-b7e63847c28b" CreationDate="2018-04-16T17:49:51.453" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|athena|maiden-goddesses|goddesses|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15740" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2939" RevisionGUID="0579f80d-1371-4392-a164-3d00af04f23e" CreationDate="2018-04-16T20:05:35.520" UserId="2807" Comment="Corrected small typographical error" Text="Apollonius of Rhodes, in his [*Argonautica*](http://classics.mit.edu/Apollonius/argon.html), tells that Medea and the Argonauts actually *did* fall out of favor with the gods for killing Absyrtus. Zeus found out fairly quickly and was characteristically angry:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When Apsyrtus had fallen in mighty overthrow Zeus himself, king of gods, was seized with wrath at what they had done. And he ordained that by the counsels of Aeaean Circe they should cleanse themselves from the terrible stain of blood and suffer countless woes before their return.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[*Argonautica*](http://classics.mit.edu/Apollonius/argon.4.iv.html), Book IV&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is not immediately made clear to the voyagers, and they blissfully travel onwards. Fortunately, Hera takes command and stirs up a storm, pushing them to the island of Electra, where they are told of Zeus' command. After passing through more dangers (as per the &quot;countless woes&quot;), they reach Circe, living on Aeaea. When she discovers what they have done, she offers a sacrifice to Zeus, thereby purifying the murderers:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And straightway Circe became aware of the doom of a suppliant and the guilt of murder. Wherefore in reverence for the ordinance of Zeus, the god of suppliants, who is a god of wrath yet mightily aids slayers of men, she began to offer the sacrifice with which ruthless suppliants are cleansed from guilt when they approach the altar. First, to atone for the murder still unexpiated, she held above their heads the young of a sow whose dugs yet swelled from the fruit of the womb, and, severing its neck, sprinkled their hands with the blood; and again she made propitiation with other drink offerings, calling on Zeus the Cleanser, the protector of murder- stained suppliants. And all the defilements in a mass her attendants bore forth from the palace--the Naiad nymphs who ministered all things to her. And within, Circe, standing by the hearth, kept burning atonement-cakes without wine, praying the while that she might stay from their wrath the terrible Furies, and that Zeus himself might be propitious and gentle to them both, whether with hands stained by the blood of a stranger or, as kinsfolk, by the blood of a kinsman, they should implore his grace. &#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[*Argonautica*](http://classics.mit.edu/Apollonius/argon.4.iv.html), Book IV&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It might seem strange that Medea was let off so easily - honestly, reading the passage, it seems like a token ceremony. However, remember that the voyage to Aeaea was fraught with peril; it was only due to a second intervention by Hera that the Argonauts survived at all. Apollonius doesn't spend much time on this, but it's important nonetheless.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as I can tell, Medea's filicide was the invention of Euripides; it wasn't in the older versions of the tales. It's also a morally ambiguous act. Medea originally conceives of the idea to punish Jason, who wants to marry Glauce:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; . . . for that [murder] will stab my husband to the heart.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Medea, [*Medea*](http://classics.mit.edu/Euripides/medea.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Medea is likely also referring to her murder of Glauce, which she achieves by means of a poisoned dress (delivered by Medea's children, in Euripedes' version - a twist of irony). Again, this is meant to hurt Jason.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She of course wrestles with her qualms, but later on, she also tries to justify it by saying that if she doesn't kill her children, they will either be murdered or tortured by someone else:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Nay, by the fiends of hell's abyss, never, never will I hand my children over to their foes to mock and flout. Die they must in any case, and since 'tis so, why I, the mother who bore them, will give the fatal blow. In any case their doom is fixed and there is no escape.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Medea, [*Medea*](http://classics.mit.edu/Euripides/medea.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She repeats this thought process shortly before actually killing her sons:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; My friends, I am resolved upon the deed; at once will I slay my children and then leave this land, without delaying long enough to hand them over to some more savage hand to butcher. Needs must they die in any case; and since they must, I will slay them-I, the mother that bare them.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Medea, [*Medea*](http://classics.mit.edu/Euripides/medea.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Presumably, Medea thinks it is impossible for her to escape if she still has her children. Therefore, she wants to avoid subjecting them to more pain. She clearly still loves them; just read any of her short soliloquies on the subject. In the very end, she rejects her original motivation - to harm Jason - and attempts to commit the murder out of love.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's worth noting that Jason, too, believes the children might be harmed, because of Medea's murder of Glauce. However, his response is to protect them, not kill them - although he arrives too late:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As for her, those whom she hath wronged will do the like by her; but I am come to save the children's life, lest the victim's kin visit their wrath on me, in vengeance for the murder foul, wrought by my children's mother.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Jason, [*Medea*](http://classics.mit.edu/Euripides/medea.html)&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15741" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2939" RevisionGUID="0579f80d-1371-4392-a164-3d00af04f23e" CreationDate="2018-04-16T20:05:35.520" Comment="Proposed by 2807 approved by 183 edit id of 1620" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15742" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4731" RevisionGUID="3b44cd31-ec44-4299-936e-a23f2eb3585b" CreationDate="2018-04-16T22:25:27.030" UserId="2807" Comment="Corrected small typographical error" Text="History places the flood Myths as a culture's way to explain the end of the last ice age. This happened about 10,000 years ago. But this book I'm reading (*The Chronicles of the Imaginarium Geographica, Book 2, The Search for the Red Dragon*) places Deucalion's flood (Greek flood) about 1,600 BC, the beginning of the Bronze Age. And that got me thinking, when (what year, if given) do Mythologies place their flood Myth? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15743" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4731" RevisionGUID="3b44cd31-ec44-4299-936e-a23f2eb3585b" CreationDate="2018-04-16T22:25:27.030" Comment="Proposed by 2807 approved by 4271 edit id of 1619" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15744" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4735" RevisionGUID="53e7f944-3655-4da3-9355-ceaf0bb6c605" CreationDate="2018-04-17T01:11:24.923" UserId="2807" Comment="added 132 characters in body" Text="For questions about Medea, a sorceress in Greek mythology known for helping Jason and the Argonauts in retrieving the Golden Fleece." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15745" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4735" RevisionGUID="53e7f944-3655-4da3-9355-ceaf0bb6c605" CreationDate="2018-04-17T01:11:24.923" Comment="Proposed by 2807 approved by 4271, 1241 edit id of 1616" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15746" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4734" RevisionGUID="0c719d00-4f2a-4472-8664-c38195f66d5c" CreationDate="2018-04-17T01:11:32.493" UserId="2807" Comment="added 132 characters in body" Text="For questions about Medea, a sorceress in Greek mythology known for helping Jason and the Argonauts in retrieving the Golden Fleece." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15747" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4734" RevisionGUID="0c719d00-4f2a-4472-8664-c38195f66d5c" CreationDate="2018-04-17T01:11:32.493" Comment="Proposed by 2807 approved by 4271, 1241 edit id of 1615" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15748" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4736" RevisionGUID="66731f68-898d-4335-9dfb-e171cc9bc647" CreationDate="2018-04-17T01:11:37.363" UserId="2807" Comment="added 128 characters in body" Text="For questions about Odysseus or Ulysses, legendary king of Ithaca and hero of Homer's epic poems, the *Iliad* and the *Odyssey*." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15749" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4736" RevisionGUID="66731f68-898d-4335-9dfb-e171cc9bc647" CreationDate="2018-04-17T01:11:37.363" Comment="Proposed by 2807 approved by 4271, 1241 edit id of 1617" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15750" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4737" RevisionGUID="25959c63-e902-4bf5-a6ca-23a50543e2b1" CreationDate="2018-04-17T01:11:41.577" UserId="2807" Comment="added 124 characters in body" Text="For questions about Odysseus or Ulysses, legendary king of Ithaca and hero of Homer's epic poems, the Iliad and the Odyssey." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15751" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4737" RevisionGUID="25959c63-e902-4bf5-a6ca-23a50543e2b1" CreationDate="2018-04-17T01:11:41.577" Comment="Proposed by 2807 approved by 4271, 1241 edit id of 1618" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15754" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4744" RevisionGUID="583c9282-bd7e-4179-ba67-a305a439c7ce" CreationDate="2018-04-17T01:53:02.070" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="Whitsun, also called Whit Sunday and Pentecost, is the Sunday 49 days after the Christian festival of Easter and in the Gregorian calendar it falls on a date between 10 May and 13 June. What pagan or folk customs or beliefs have accreted to the Christian celebration on this day, or were replaced by it, or are otherwise related to it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15755" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4744" RevisionGUID="583c9282-bd7e-4179-ba67-a305a439c7ce" CreationDate="2018-04-17T01:53:02.070" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="What pagan or folk customs and beliefs relate to Pentecost (Whitsun)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15756" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4744" RevisionGUID="583c9282-bd7e-4179-ba67-a305a439c7ce" CreationDate="2018-04-17T01:53:02.070" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="|folklore|calendar-dates|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15759" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4745" RevisionGUID="0d11dc9f-f4fa-4aac-8293-926f0927cd69" CreationDate="2018-04-17T13:00:45.793" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="When did people first draw in the air with their fingers to indicate that their word or phrase should be heard as enclosed within quotation marks?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15760" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4745" RevisionGUID="0d11dc9f-f4fa-4aac-8293-926f0927cd69" CreationDate="2018-04-17T13:00:45.793" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="When were &quot;air quotes&quot; first used?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15761" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4745" RevisionGUID="0d11dc9f-f4fa-4aac-8293-926f0927cd69" CreationDate="2018-04-17T13:00:45.793" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15762" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4746" RevisionGUID="13fdc488-02be-4ce6-8627-0303e05b795b" CreationDate="2018-04-17T13:20:21.310" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="I found [two memorates][1] from the 1960s describing the gesturing with fingers from each hand to draw quotation marks around a spoken word or phrase. These are recorded as witnessed in 1964-68 and 1968-69, by a then undergraduate and school student respectively. I myself recall the gesture from 1980-81. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The  practice became widespread at the end of the 1980s, at least partly because of the gesture's frequent use by Steve Martin on the United States TV show *Saturday Night Live*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The earliest reference I could find to the term &quot;air quotes&quot; was in [March 1989][2] by Kurt Andersen and Paul Rudnick in their article &quot;The Irony Epidemic&quot; in *Spy* magazine. (Some online sources cite a 1987 source for a use by Frazier Moore, but this [does not stand up][2].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a much earlier reference to a similar but not identical gesture in the July 1927 edition of *Science*, which describes a woman who raised her hands above her head with the first and second fingers pointing upwards, representing quotation marks, when she wished to convey that her sayings were not original.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=35093&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://%20https://books.google.com/books?id=oEQ9G8e_zmQC&amp;pg=PA94&amp;lpg=PA94&amp;dq=%E2%80%9Cthe%20quintessential%20contemporary%20gesture%20that%20says,%20we%E2%80%99re%20not%20serious.%E2%80%9D&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=3mNPgz8u2m&amp;sig=KLqd9oTloSFLyhOrYptovNEBteQ&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwixwdnlo97SAhUhxVQKHQ9XAA0Q6AEIHzAB#v=onepage&amp;q=%E2%80%9Cthe%20quintessential%20contemporary%20gesture%20that%20says%2C%20we%E2%80%99re%20not%20serious.%E2%80%9D&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15763" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4745" RevisionGUID="dc2937a3-3fdf-4e02-8d58-19152f5683ae" CreationDate="2018-04-17T13:24:13.977" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body" Text="When did speakers first draw in the air with their fingers to indicate that a word or phrase should be heard as enclosed within quotation marks?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15764" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3022" RevisionGUID="0cfa78e9-0595-490c-ba2c-0efda2297790" CreationDate="2018-04-17T13:57:33.353" UserDisplayName="user1079" Comment="Typos." Text="Brian Blount (&lt;i&gt;Revelation: A Commentary&lt;/i&gt;, 225) summarizes the array of interpretations:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;Some connect her with figures in Israel's or the church's past or future: Eve, the mother whose seed would bruise the head of the dragon/serpent (Gen 3:1-16); Mary, the mother of Jesus; or the heavenly Jerusalem as bride of the Lamb (19:7-8; 29:9-10). Others suppose a pagan or astrological connection: a queen of heaven like the Egyptian Isis, or the constellation Virgo. Still others hypothesize a corporate representation of God's people: Israel, who escapes the dragon/Pharaoh into the wilderness on wings of eagles (Exod 19:4; cf. Ps 74:12-15); or Zion, the mother of the persecuted people of God (Isa 66:7-9; &lt;i&gt;4 Ezra&lt;/i&gt; 13.32-28).&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In my &lt;a href=&quot;https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2808/1079&quot;&gt;answers&lt;/a&gt; to a &lt;a href=&quot;https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2957/1079&quot;&gt;few&lt;/a&gt; other &lt;a href=&quot;https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2945/1079&quot;&gt;questions&lt;/a&gt;, I've pointed to the way the author of the Revelation borrows and adapts symbols, scenes, and idioms primarily from the Hebrew bible to form his book.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The symbols surrounding the woman come from a swath of texts in the Hebrew bible, but the connection between all of them is they are all concerned with Israel, Judah, or Jerusalem/Zion. Breaking down the individual symbols in Revelation 12:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;A great portent appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The specification of the stars as twelve in number brings us to Genesis 37.1-11. The final third of Genesis tells the story of Jacob (a.k.a. Israel) and his twelve sons, forefathers of the twelve tribes of Israel.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Genesis 37.1-11 specifically has one of the younger sons, Joseph, describe a dream he had: he saw a sun, a moon, and eleven stars bowing down to him. His family immediately recognized that the sun was his father (Jacob/Israel), the moon his mother, and the eleven stars his brothers. The implication that Joseph is a twelfth star was taken for granted by the first century; cf. Philo, &lt;i&gt;On Dreams&lt;/i&gt; 2.113: &lt;i&gt;he who saw this heaven-sent vision, thought that he was being worshiped by eleven stars, ranking himself among them as the twelfth&lt;/i&gt;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The woman in Revelation 12 is wrapped in the symbols from Joseph's dream which were intended to represent Israel and all its people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pangs, in the agony of giving birth.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Prophetic texts sometimes symbolize Israel, Judah, or Jerusalem/Zion as a woman suffering birth pains during periods of crisis or social upheaval. Examples include Isaiah 26.1,17-18 and 66.7-11, or Jeremiah 4.31. The revelator adapts this motif and specifically identifies her offspring as the messiah (combining imagery from Psalm 2 and Psalm 110).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;Then another portent appeared in heaven: a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The revelator borrows this from Daniel 8, another symbolic vision and combines it with the earlier use of Gen 37.1-11. In Daniel 8, the titular sage has a vision of a goat's horn throwing down stars and trampling them (Dan 8.9-10). An angel explains to Daniel that this vision symbolizes persecution befalling 'the people of the holy ones' (8.24), i.e. Torah-faithful Israelites.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, so that there she can be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days. [...] the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle, so that she could fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to her place where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here the revelator borrows very directly from Exodus 19.3-4: &lt;i&gt;'Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the Israelites: You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself.'&lt;/i&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;'One thousand two hundred sixty days' is three and a half years according to the Hebrew calendar, rendered a second time idiomatically as 'time and times and half a time' (i.e. one and two and one-half). This comes from Daniel 7, though John reverses its meaning; originally it signified the period of persecution Torah-faithful Israelites would suffer (the same one mentioned in Dan 8), but John here uses it to signify a period in which Israel will remain protected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Somewhat complicating the whole matter is John's adaptation of the Combat Myth that permeated Indo-European mythologies (see this [answer](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2808/1079)). In particular, the revelator appears to have borrowed from a version of the Combat Myth well-known in the Asia region: the story of Apollo and Python.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The New Oxford Annotated New Testament comments:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;The vision of the woman, the child, and the dragon is rich in symbolism drawn from the mythological traditions found in ancient Babylonia, Egypt, Greece, and Rome, as well as in the Hebrew Bible. One well-known version of the story tells of the goddess Leto, pregnant with Apollo, who is menaced by the dragon Python, who pursues her because he knows that Apollo is destined to kill him (Hyginus, &lt;i&gt;Fabulae&lt;/i&gt; 140).&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Jewish Annotated New Testament:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;The motif of the pregnant woman chased by the dragon, here and in vv.13-17, recalls the story of Leto (and her child, Apollo), pursued by Python. It is not surprising that a Jewish author from Asia Minor might draw out a vision rooted in prophetic oracles by means of regional mythology.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And GK Beale's commentary, &lt;i&gt;The Book of Revelation&lt;/i&gt;, 624:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;blockquote&gt;The version of this story best known in Asia Minor was that of the goddess Leto who was pregnant with Apollo, the son of Zeus. She was attacked by the dragon, Python, because he knew that her offspring had been appointed to kill him. But she was carried to a safe island by winds sent by Zeus. The god Poseidon hid the island under the water so that Python could not find the woman and her child. Four days after Apollo was born, he found the dragon and slew it.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other words, John borrowed the specific shape of the Combat Myth as seen in the Apollo vs. Python story and replaced its 'pagan' elements with symbols assembled from throughout the Hebrew bible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;h3&gt;Conclusion&lt;/h3&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The broad consensus of critical scholarship is the woman represents &lt;b&gt;Israel&lt;/b&gt;." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15765" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="4689" RevisionGUID="af8d0593-1309-43be-9f38-017d6690c86f" CreationDate="2018-04-17T14:16:04.147" UserId="4934" Comment="65" />
  <row Id="15766" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3304" RevisionGUID="5b9e48a6-fac2-43c4-866b-8b8c925746be" CreationDate="2018-04-17T14:37:34.897" UserId="3302" Comment="added 37 characters in body; deleted 6 characters in body" Text="According to scripture [Judaism doesn't support gay marriage][1].  [Christianity is similar][1].  [Hindiusm talks about people born with out gender parts and therefore being 3rd gender](https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/175/what-does-hinduism-say-about-third-gendered-people) but [ doesn't accept homosexuality](https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/8744/vedas-and-vedic-dharma-on-homosexuality).  [Buddhism says nothing about gay marriage or 3rd genders](https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/questions/1886/what-is-the-attitude-toward-homosexuality-in-buddhism).  [Islam also is against homosexuality][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would like to refrain from talking about 3rd genders(people born with out sexual parts or both) because there are incredibly rare compared to actual homosexuality and as outlined in Hinduism there are considered to be an exception.  Chinese religions like Taoism and Confucianism say nothing about homosexuality.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any religions that are both old(implying they still practiced) and explicitly support homosexuality?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/17815/how-do-christians-in-support-of-gay-marriage-interpret-anti-gay-bible-verses&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://islam.stackexchange.com/questions/226/what-does-the-quran-say-about-homosexuality" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15767" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4745" RevisionGUID="6c6b91b9-b755-4543-b98e-a26bb68f1128" CreationDate="2018-04-17T14:42:32.813" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="When did speakers first draw in the air with their fingers to indicate that a word or phrase should be heard as if between quotation marks?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15768" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4746" RevisionGUID="c9332475-0e9e-4577-ad2d-3c8cc2635adc" CreationDate="2018-04-17T14:43:31.287" UserId="-1" Comment="fixed a broken URL" Text="I found [two memorates][1] from the 1960s describing the gesturing with fingers from each hand to draw quotation marks around a spoken word or phrase. These are recorded as witnessed in 1964-68 and 1968-69, by a then undergraduate and school student respectively. I myself recall the gesture from 1980-81. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The  practice became widespread at the end of the 1980s, at least partly because of the gesture's frequent use by Steve Martin on the United States TV show *Saturday Night Live*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The earliest reference I could find to the term &quot;air quotes&quot; was in [March 1989][2] by Kurt Andersen and Paul Rudnick in their article &quot;The Irony Epidemic&quot; in *Spy* magazine. (Some online sources cite a 1987 source for a use by Frazier Moore, but this [does not stand up][2].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a much earlier reference to a similar but not identical gesture in the July 1927 edition of *Science*, which describes a woman who raised her hands above her head with the first and second fingers pointing upwards, representing quotation marks, when she wished to convey that her sayings were not original.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=35093&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.com/books?id=oEQ9G8e_zmQC&amp;pg=PA94&amp;lpg=PA94&amp;dq=%E2%80%9Cthe%20quintessential%20contemporary%20gesture%20that%20says,%20we%E2%80%99re%20not%20serious.%E2%80%9D&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=3mNPgz8u2m&amp;sig=KLqd9oTloSFLyhOrYptovNEBteQ&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwixwdnlo97SAhUhxVQKHQ9XAA0Q6AEIHzAB#v=onepage&amp;q=%E2%80%9Cthe%20quintessential%20contemporary%20gesture%20that%20says%2C%20we%E2%80%99re%20not%20serious.%E2%80%9D&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15769" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4746" RevisionGUID="c9332475-0e9e-4577-ad2d-3c8cc2635adc" CreationDate="2018-04-17T14:43:31.287" Comment="Proposed by anonymous approved by 1618 edit id of 1623" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15776" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4749" RevisionGUID="427c9479-ac20-4622-842b-cb1e565cbb7d" CreationDate="2018-04-17T15:20:36.663" UserId="4271" Text="I found a [page][1] with a number of Dryope from Greek Mythology. One of them says a nymph (possibly a different one from my last question) of the name was told by Hera to kidnap Hylas. On the [Hylas page][2], it makes no mention of Dryope.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dryope&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hylas" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15777" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4749" RevisionGUID="427c9479-ac20-4622-842b-cb1e565cbb7d" CreationDate="2018-04-17T15:20:36.663" UserId="4271" Text="Why did Hera tell Dryope to kidnap Hylas?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15778" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4749" RevisionGUID="427c9479-ac20-4622-842b-cb1e565cbb7d" CreationDate="2018-04-17T15:20:36.663" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|hera|nymphs|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15779" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4750" RevisionGUID="05b9a2a9-0b75-4c5c-9c2c-9edc75f741b7" CreationDate="2018-04-17T15:24:01.383" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15780" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4750" RevisionGUID="05b9a2a9-0b75-4c5c-9c2c-9edc75f741b7" CreationDate="2018-04-17T15:24:01.383" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15781" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4751" RevisionGUID="0bf23a7c-85e5-4302-ba3d-02d5ba7e939b" CreationDate="2018-04-17T15:24:01.383" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15782" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4751" RevisionGUID="0bf23a7c-85e5-4302-ba3d-02d5ba7e939b" CreationDate="2018-04-17T15:24:01.383" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15783" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4752" RevisionGUID="bc76087c-ae8a-4668-9683-847a018a2ad2" CreationDate="2018-04-17T16:57:14.640" UserId="4271" Text="I found this looking to see if any other Mythology had ages of man. The ages of man come from Hesiod's Work and Days.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; At the height of the Iron Age, humans no longer feel shame or indignation at wrongdoing; babies will be born with gray hair and the gods will have completely forsaken humanity: &quot;there will be no help against evil.&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Expert from Wikipedia, Retrieved 4/17/2018&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the interpretation for, &quot;babies will be born with gray hair?&quot; Did Hesiod mean it literally or as a symbol?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15784" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4752" RevisionGUID="bc76087c-ae8a-4668-9683-847a018a2ad2" CreationDate="2018-04-17T16:57:14.640" UserId="4271" Text="What can it mean by, &quot;babies will be born with gray hair?&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15785" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4752" RevisionGUID="bc76087c-ae8a-4668-9683-847a018a2ad2" CreationDate="2018-04-17T16:57:14.640" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|interpretation|hesiod|ages-of-man|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15787" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1301" RevisionGUID="46e1686c-6d52-4ae9-b927-4a9657e99097" CreationDate="2018-04-17T19:17:33.657" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="Corrected links.." Text="I found [this blog][1] about an article in the newspaper The Hindu, which has and excerpt from a retelling of the Mahabharata from the point of view of Sahadeva. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I searched for the book but could not find it. Can you identify it?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is the excerpt link - [Sahadeva-The Lesser Know Hero of Mahabharata | whatiamupto.blogspot.in][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://whatiamupto.blogspot.in/2011/05/sahadeva-lesser-know-hero-of.html?m=1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15788" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1301" RevisionGUID="46e1686c-6d52-4ae9-b927-4a9657e99097" CreationDate="2018-04-17T19:17:33.657" Comment="Proposed by 4660 approved by 4271, 2774 edit id of 1622" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15789" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="391" RevisionGUID="c5089fc1-50f4-44f3-a901-cedec67ef8bd" CreationDate="2018-04-17T19:17:40.443" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="added 9 characters in body" Text="For questions on the traditional beliefs, customs and stories of a community or culture." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15790" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="391" RevisionGUID="c5089fc1-50f4-44f3-a901-cedec67ef8bd" CreationDate="2018-04-17T19:17:40.443" Comment="Proposed by 1618 approved by 4271, 2774 edit id of 1621" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15791" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4753" RevisionGUID="8b45ad61-4abf-4256-be31-546d750cd05b" CreationDate="2018-04-18T05:03:22.647" UserId="4962" Text="I believe this version is a bit more illuminating. Grey at birth seems to imply by the surrounding text to mean a belief they are mature before their time. &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Thereafter, would that I were not among the men of the fifth generation, but either had died before or been born afterwards. For now truly is a race of iron, and men never rest from labour and sorrow by day, and from perishing by night; and the gods shall lay sore trouble upon them. But, notwithstanding, even these shall have some good mingled with their evils. And Zeus will destroy this race of mortal men also when they come to have grey hair on the temples at their birth. The father will not agree with his children, nor the children with their father, nor guest with his host, nor comrade with comrade; nor will brother be dear to brother as aforetime. Men will dishonour their parents as they grow quickly old, and will carp at them, chiding them with bitter words, hard-hearted they, not knowing the fear of the gods. They will not repay their aged parents the cost of their nurture, for might shall be their right: and one man will sack another's city. There will be no favour for the man who keeps his oath or for the just or for the good; but rather men will praise the evil-doer and his violent dealing. Strength will be right and reverence will cease to be; and the wicked will hurt the worthy man, speaking false words against him, and will swear an oath upon them. Envy, foul-mouthed, delighting in evil, with scowling face, will go along with wretched men one and all. And then Aidos and Nemesis, with their sweet forms wrapped in white robes, will go from the wide-pathed earth and forsake mankind to join the company of the deathless gods: and bitter sorrows will be left for mortal men, and there will be no help against evil (Hesiod).&#xA;&#xA;http://www.moyak.com/papers/hesiod-theogony.html " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15792" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4754" RevisionGUID="c48c244e-b29f-4be0-acc1-126b4c0e5120" CreationDate="2018-04-18T05:26:23.493" UserId="4962" Text="Hylas was beloved by Hercules, which is likely reason enough for Hera to have him kidnapped.  https://wikivisually.com/wiki/Hylas" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15793" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3531" RevisionGUID="e09d1f0d-9b9d-4c14-8fda-b0af50e2ff27" CreationDate="2018-04-18T07:14:50.783" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="15794" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4755" RevisionGUID="21e990c9-31c7-4a33-a911-78cf14581f80" CreationDate="2018-04-18T13:10:39.197" UserId="4271" Text="Ariadne was a daughter of Minos. She helped Theseus traverse the labyrinth in exchange to be taken with him away.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In one version, Dionysus tells Theseus that he wants Ariadne and to leave her on an island.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In another, Theseus plain out abandons her on an island without divinity telling him to do so." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15795" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4755" RevisionGUID="21e990c9-31c7-4a33-a911-78cf14581f80" CreationDate="2018-04-18T13:10:39.197" UserId="4271" Text="Which version of the Ariadne Myth was written/told first?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15796" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4755" RevisionGUID="21e990c9-31c7-4a33-a911-78cf14581f80" CreationDate="2018-04-18T13:10:39.197" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|dionysus|theseus|labyrinth|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15797" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1519" RevisionGUID="caae6c43-503e-44b6-a484-f565ef0e18f0" CreationDate="2018-04-18T13:15:08.240" UserId="4271" Comment="corrected myth" Text="Zeus, for the most part, seems to be represented as the head of the gods in most cases. For example:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - He was the only one not eaten by Kronos, and managed to save his siblings&#xD;&#xA; - He was ruler of Olympus, home of the gods&#xD;&#xA; - Many of the heroes and kings mentioned in mythology are his children. This would include Perseus, Tantalus, Minos, etc (see the Wikipedia page for Zeus for more). In fact, six of the twelve gods of Olympus are his children- Athena, Hephaestus, Apollo, Artemis, Ares, and Dionysus.&#xD;&#xA; - Being ruler of the sky pretty much cinches him as the ruler. In ancient Greece, the sky was always above you, huge, unreachable, and full of mysterious powers they didn't understand. It would make sense if their chief deity was the controller of all that.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;BUT&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although Zeus is generally portrayed as king god, remember, there is no &quot;set in stone&quot; version of the myth. Since the Bronze Age, they were generally told orally from one person to another, each embellishing and carving it to their own liking. The version of the myths as most people today know them were described (and, importantly, written down) by authors such as Ovid, Homer,and Hesiod. While it is likely that their version of the myths was similar to everyone else's, there is no reason to believe that everything had to be exactly as we know it. A lot can change in a few thousand years! Sure, something like &quot;who's chief of the gods&quot; is a mighty big thing to change, but as you mentioned, it would actually make sense for Poseidon to be the chief deity, even if Zeus was technically king. Here's why:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The Greeks (and the Romans, too, for that matter) lived on the Mediterranean. A map of their world looked something like this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/mRvKN.png&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most of their world, if you notice, was ocean, or more specifically, Oceanus, the personification of the sea that supposedly surrounded the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - For the most part, Greece was a bunch of islands with some annoying mountains here and there. The sea was a huge part of their lives, whether they wanted it to be or not.&#xD;&#xA; - In fact, the sea would probably be as mysterious as the sky to them. They wouldn't know about currents, or how storms worked, or about how come there were tides. There's only so much land-based weather could do the Greeks. They are not really in a region prone to tornadoes or anything like that. However, storms on the ocean were probably more or less normal- and much more powerful.&#xD;&#xA; - And who ruled over this massive, dangerous, all-powerful sea? Poseidon. As if that wasn't enough, he was also given the title of Earthshaker, attributing even more power and destruction to him.&#xD;&#xA; - Much like Zeus, many of his children were significant in mythology, including Bellerophon, Charybdis, and Proteus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From all this, it would make sense that the ancient people favored Poseidon over Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that I didn't mention the trident. That's because during a battle the Cyclopes gave each of the three elder gods a gift. Poseidon got his trident, Hades got the helmet of darkness which can  make him disappear, and Zeus was given the lightning bolt. So they each got something to show their power and Poseidon's trident had nothing to do with it." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15798" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4756" RevisionGUID="19d90f0c-63cb-49b6-ad4d-e70efbdb5b58" CreationDate="2018-04-18T14:01:19.927" UserId="4271" Text="Phaedra and Hippolytus- Phaedra cursed to love the Hippolytus, her step-son. Hippo dies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Galatea and Acis- Galatea attracts the love of Polyphemus, Polyphemus kills Acis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hero and Leander- One reverse sides of the Hellespont, Leander swims to a torch Hero lights every night. Storm blows the torch out one night, Leander dies and Hero drowns herself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Orpheus and Eurydice- Eurydice is killed by snakes. Orpheus goes into the Underworld to get her back, fails and is killed by the maenads.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Alcyone and Ceyx- Ceyx is killed by Zeus (that dick), Alcyone drowns herself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Romeo and Juliet Greek Myth (can't find their names)- Fell in love, were neighbors, family band them from getting married. Spoke with each other though a crack/hole in the fence. Were going to met up, Greek Romeo was late, saw red on Greek Juliet veil and a lion. Killed himself. Greek Juliet came back saw Greek Romeo and killed herself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I could probably list tragic love endings all day, but that is why I ask this question. Do any Greek love stories/Myths have happy endings?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15799" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4756" RevisionGUID="19d90f0c-63cb-49b6-ad4d-e70efbdb5b58" CreationDate="2018-04-18T14:01:19.927" UserId="4271" Text="Are there any love stories in Myth that don't have one or both dying?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15800" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4756" RevisionGUID="19d90f0c-63cb-49b6-ad4d-e70efbdb5b58" CreationDate="2018-04-18T14:01:19.927" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|love|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15801" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4757" RevisionGUID="f2922cb9-e6f5-4ba9-8474-29c6033351b3" CreationDate="2018-04-18T14:23:04.440" UserId="4271" Text="In my last [question][1], I mentioned a love story that Shakespeare based his Romeo and Juliet story on. I said I tried and failed to find their names. The following is what I know of this story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They were neighbors that fell in love. Their family band them from getting married. They spoke with each other though a crack/hole in the fence/wall and planed to meet up. Greek Romeo arrived second to see blood on Greek Juliet's veil and a lion over it. He killed himself, wishing to be with her in Death or something. Greek Juliet came back, saw Greek Romeo and killed herself with the same sword. I believe they were in the same grave together.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is this Myth in more deatail?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/4756/are-there-any-love-stories-in-myth-that-dont-have-one-or-both-dying" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15802" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4757" RevisionGUID="f2922cb9-e6f5-4ba9-8474-29c6033351b3" CreationDate="2018-04-18T14:23:04.440" UserId="4271" Text="What is the Myth that had Shakespeare inspired to write Romeo and Juliet?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15803" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4757" RevisionGUID="f2922cb9-e6f5-4ba9-8474-29c6033351b3" CreationDate="2018-04-18T14:23:04.440" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|myth-identification|love|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15804" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4758" RevisionGUID="053b3879-74d7-4758-b003-7e8f5b97e597" CreationDate="2018-04-18T19:28:50.763" UserId="666" Text="The story is that of [Pyramus and Thisbe][1], from Ovid's *[Metamorphoses][2]*. You have already covered almost everything he tells us in your question, but there are a couple of extra details: They were living in Babylon; they were meeting under a [mulberry tree][3], and it's fruit took colour from Pyramus' blood (the transformation that makes it fit in the Metamorphoses), and their ashes are kept in the same urn.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story was retold several times; Shakespeare himself used it as the play that the &quot;rude mechanicals&quot; enacted in *A Midsummer Night's Dream*. It was also used by Chaucer and Boccaccio. If you want to read Ovid's account, Wikisource has [several translations][4] that are in public domain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramus_and_Thisbe&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphoses&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morus_(plant)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Metamorphoses" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15805" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4566" RevisionGUID="81e6c733-376c-4793-b21c-6142402d7780" CreationDate="2018-04-18T20:36:48.687" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected a detail" Text="**The oversimplified, triple-diluted answer is that they used their Greek names.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But then, with the Question worded as it is, the answer is not justifiably so simple. The breakdown thereof can be approached in two different ways: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - From inside the narrative world, in which we assume that the Trojans' depiction in the myths is accurate and thus the basis of what we should understand about them; and &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA; - From outside the narrative world, based on deductions of what the &#xD;&#xA;   people inhabiting the place supposedly called Troy were actually like &quot;IRL&quot; (&quot;in real life,&quot; as they say in video-game parlance) at the time that the Trojan War is supposed to have taken place.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Timeframe of the Latins and Their Language**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The events in question, if they did occur, would have transpired sometime in the 1200s BC. It is highly unlikely that, by then, anyone anywhere in the world was speaking Latin, which comes into any sort of prominence only about 400 years afterwards. In the narrative world there are a few different traditions regarding the tribe of the Latins, whose language would eventually give us the Roman names of the gods. All these traditions point toward a character named Latinos (Λατῖνος), whom the Romans called Latinus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Logically the language that was named after him should have began to develop no earlier than within his lifetime. In Greek mythology, Latinos' father is either Odysseus (a Greek king who fought in the Trojan War) or Herakles (who lived a generation before the war). One late interpretation (by Ioannes Lydos in the 6th century AD) of Hesiod's *Catalogues of Women* tries to make Latinos into an earlier figure, saying that he lived not long after the Flood of Deukalion, and that he was in fact the son of Zeus by a daughter of Deukalion, which would have meant he was long dead by the time Troy was under construction.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the myths, the builders of Troy are essentially Greek colonists who settle in Asia Minor and establish a new kingdom there a short while before the Trojan War. Their culture and religion are, for the most part, indistinguishable from those of their enemies who eventually destroy their kingdom and its stronghold, and they worship the same gods in the same ways with similar priesthoods, rituals and prophecy customs. &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Since there would not have been Roman or Latin renditions of anyone's names available for the Trojans' use, the Trojans therefore would have used the Greek names of the gods. This may have changed very gradually after the war, following the migration to Latium of some of the surviving Trojans. In the Deukalionian Flood version in which the Latins have been around just as long as everyone else, the question becomes whether these Latins had so much influence on the shores of the Aegean Sea that the Greek settlers of Asia would have adopted their language for the names of Greek deities in the 13th century BC. Not impossible, but unlikely, and as far as the logic of the story goes, simply not how things were.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Dardanos, His Descendants and Their Religion**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is, however, a Roman tradition about the foundation of Troy which would disagree with what I just said. But let's start with the Greek version of *that* story. On the island of Samothrake, Elektra, one of the seven Pleiades, bore Zeus a son named Dardanos, who grew up in Arkadia in Greece, where he married a local princess named Khryse. It was during Dardanos' lifetime that Zeus sought to annihilate the human race in Deukalion's Flood. Dardanos escaped the deluge with most of his family, fleeing to his birthplace of Samothrake. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Robert Graves' book *The Greek Myths*, Khryse was a priestess of the &quot;Great Deities,&quot; whose images and other paraphernalia she brought with her from Arkadia to Samothrake, where, together with her husband, she introduced the cult of these gods. The two of them decided, however, to keep the names of the gods a sacred secret, thus creating or continuing the practice of *Mysteria* (Mysteries) in their honour. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While on Samothrake, Dardanos' brother and wife died and he decided to move to Asia, where he took the cult, sacra and *mysteria* of the otherwise unknown Great Gods with him. The Samothrakian cult in question is thought to have been in honour of gods called the Kabeiroi, whose rites were indeed so secretive that even ancient writers (e.g. Strabo) are wildly unclear as to who exactly they were, speculating that they might be the same as the Korybantes, the Kouretes, or the Daktyloi, who themselves are only slightly less mysterious, and none of whose epithets seem to be from the Greek language. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At any rate, Dardanos built a town, called Dardania, on the slopes of Mt Ida, establishing there at least some aspects of the religion he and his wife had imported from Arkadia to Samothrake. In Asia one divinity who was associated with Dardanos' and Khryse's Great Deities is Kybele (or Kybebe), who in Phrygia was known by the title &quot;Mother of the Gods.&quot; Because the Titaness Rhea was the mother of about half of the Twelve Olympians (and grandmother of just about all the rest of them), she thus came to be identified with Kybele, who otherwise does not really have a Greek equivalent. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One image, or a set of images, in particular, supposedly representing the goddess Athena, became an important feature of Dardanos' new settlement. The image or images were called the *palladia* (or was only a singular *palladion*), which have/has several conflicting traditions regarding their/its origin. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dardanos had a grandson named Tros. After him the whole region came to be called Troas. Tros had a son named Ilos who built a city in the neighbourhood of Dardania. He named the city after himself Ilion (which in Latin becomes *Ilium*), from which we get the word *Iliad*. But Tros had been so famous that his son's city popularly came be known as Troy while &quot;Ilion&quot; remained as its more poetic title. Ilos brought into his new city the palladion/palladia of his great-grandfather, making it/them a main feature of the city, linked to the preservation of the kingdom. If it/they was/were lost, Troy would fall. Ilos' grandson Priamos would be the city's last king.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The whole point here appears to be that there was an aspect of Trojan religion which was unique and known only to the Trojans (and perhaps Samothrakians too), with gods whose names almost nobody knew, and whose cult is supposed to have been preserved by Tros's descendants the Romans. Between them and the Phrygian Kybele, these may be gods whose names might have been neither Greek nor Roman (even in the narrative world), and if there was something like a Trojan language (whether in the narrative or IRL) then these may have been uniquely Trojan deities with Trojan names.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Certain aspects of Trojan culture are portrayed as distinctively Phrygian, such as the conical Phrygian cap worn by Prince Paris of Troy, and even by his (in)famous Greek lover/abductee Helen.  &#xD;&#xA;[![Helen Phrygian cap][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;It would make sense if the Trojans spoke Phrygian, in which language we know the name of at least one god: Dios, the sky-deity whose name corresponds remarkably well to &quot;Zeus,&quot; as noted by Herbert Jennings Rose in *A Handbook of Greek Mythology*. Perhaps the Trojans worshipped Phrygian deities (whose names generally translated easily into Greek?). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, back to the Roman tradition that I mentioned earlier: The Italian version of Dardanos is not an Arkadian or Samothrakian but an Etruscan, who migrated from Italy to Phrygia, where he then founded Dardania. He had a brother who moved to Samothrake. When they were parting ways, they divided between them their *Penates*, family's household gods. The idea here seems to be that Dardanos, originally an Italian, went with his *Penates* to the place where Troy was founded and his descendant Aeneas eventually brought them back &quot;home&quot; again to Italy. The point here is that thus the Trojans would not have been Greeks (like Dionysios of Halikarnassos insists that they were) but Italians, and hence would have used Etruscan names for the gods. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Roman mythology, Latinus' father is most commonly identified as the god Faunus, who does not have a neatly direct Greek equivalent. The Trojans who encountered him, then, logically would have had to use the Roman/Latin/Italian name for this deity unless, as was the case in later mythography, they identified Faunus with the Greek Pan and called him by *that* Greek name.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Aeneid* there is another Roman god with no Greek equivalent, namely Tiberinus, the personification of the River Tiber. Trojans who knew about him, upon their entry into the region, would also have used his Italian name (unless they simply Hellenised it into Tiberinos).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**IRL**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In &quot;real life&quot; there does seem to have been a great city on the site that Homer and Virgil call Troy. Its real name, the language its people spoke and what their religion was, all seem to be unknown. It would seem that there was something like a Trojan War thereat, or several wars. The Wikipedia article on [the Trojan language](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_language)&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; summarises this information really well, mentioning the theory proposed by Calvert Watkins that the language of the city was [Luwian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luwian_language). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Hittite connections made herein imply that the religion and deities of Troy were related to those of the Hittites. There are some very striking parallels between the Hittite [*Kingship in Heaven* myth](https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sitchin/guerradioses/guerradioses05a.htm) and the Greek theogonic story of the conflict between the sky-god Ouranos and his sons the Titans, followed by the Titanomachy. The differences, on the other hand, however, are jarring. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Trojan language article also mentions that the Trojans' allies in the *Iliad* speak different languages although there is no indication that the Trojans themselves have any trouble communicating with the besieging Greek army.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; However, this may merely be evidence that a fictional convention&#xD;&#xA;&gt; frequently used in narratives in later times had already been adopted&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by the poet of the *Iliad*: for example, Jason finds no language barrier&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with Medea in Colchis, and Trojan Aeneas converses without difficulty&#xD;&#xA;&gt; both with Punic Dido and with Latin Turnus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Unique Symmetry of Greek and Roman Parallels**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To make things even more colourful, in ancient times (long after Homer, however), the *Iliad* was translated into Latin. In the Latin version everyone (whether Greek or Trojan) uses the Roman names of the gods, and the Roman names of every other character and place too. It appears that there may also have been ancient translations of the *Aeneid* into Greek, wherein the reverse process would have occurred, all those Italians in Virgil's narrative referring to the gods (and everything else) by their *Greek* names. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the most remarkable and most salient features of ancient Roman religion and mythology is the extent to which they directly copied, virtually wholesale, the stories and characters from Greek religion and myth in order to adapt them to the language and culture of the Romans. No other culture seems to have done this on the scale that the Romans did, except perhaps for their Etruscan ancestors, from whom the Romans may have acquired this cultural borrowing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Unparalleled Translation and Interpretation Issues**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the Romans had their own version for the name of every single Greek deity, many of them distinctly Latin, like Zeus becoming Iuppiter; and others more obviously copy+pasted, like Apollon becoming Apollo, and Okeanos becoming Oceanus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As an illustration of how unique this makes the Romans, notice how we, writing in English, cannot perform the same sort of interpretation or translation of these deities into English or even Anglo-Saxon versions. Granted that that is because, for the most part, we don't know enough about the deities of the Angles and Saxons to do that. But say we tried to do this with, for instance, Norse gods as described in the Eddas. It might make for quirky new renditions of the *Iliad* and the *Aeneid* that would seem a touch on the absurd side and probably wouldn't make much sense of the original material. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Iliad*, we could make the mother of Achilles (whatever his name would be in Old Norse) into Dúfa, one of the nine daughters of the giant sea-god Ægir. Out of the nine, Dúfa's name is the closest I could (arbitrarily) get to the Greco-Roman *Thetis*, which is the actual name of Achilles' mother in the original myths. Thetis' father *is* indeed a giant sea-god named Nereus, and that's basically where the parallel ends, since Nereus has fifty daughters, not just nine, and he lives in the Mediterranean Sea rather than on an island in northern Europe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Aeneid*, Aeneas (Old Norse equivalent file not found) could become the son of the goddess Freyja, which perhaps would be less discrepant than the identification of Dúfa with Thetis. Both Venus (Aeneas' actual mother in the *Aeneid*) and Freyja are associated with birds, and both drive chariots drawn by animals not usually used for such a job, but Freyja's association with sorcery is much more intense than any link that Venus might have with the practice thereof.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The point is that even we in English use either the Greek or the Roman versions of the names of these characters. And between the two versions, they are so interchangeable that we could have an English translation of the *Iliad* with Roman names or of the *Aeneid* with Greek names without at all impeding the narratives.         &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1. *Brought to my attention courtesy of Spencer, a fellow Mythology StackExchange user.*&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/vr4R2.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15806" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4759" RevisionGUID="767827aa-3d48-4341-b5a1-f0c6ec6ef80f" CreationDate="2018-04-18T21:41:21.103" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="Having heard the tale of Hansel and Gretel orally, the brothers Grimm published it in 1812. One of its most memorable themes is the witch's house made of sweets. Does such a theme predate this tale? And if so, when did it first appear?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15807" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4759" RevisionGUID="767827aa-3d48-4341-b5a1-f0c6ec6ef80f" CreationDate="2018-04-18T21:41:21.103" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="Did tales about a house made of sweets predate Hansel and Gretel?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15808" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4759" RevisionGUID="767827aa-3d48-4341-b5a1-f0c6ec6ef80f" CreationDate="2018-04-18T21:41:21.103" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15809" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4760" RevisionGUID="68ac37d0-67cb-493f-8014-fb15a88942a9" CreationDate="2018-04-18T21:52:48.407" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="**Yes, the theme of a house constructed of sweets does predate the Hansel and Gretel tale**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It appears in the fantasy *The Land of Cockayne* which was included in a 14th century manuscript from Ireland, the earliest known literary text in English from that country.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources:&#xD;&#xA;John Thomas Koch, Celtic Culture: A Historical Encyclopedia, 1976;&#xD;&#xA;Elaine M Treharne, Medieval Literature: A Very Short Introduction, 2015;&#xD;&#xA;Iona Opie and Peter Opie, The Classic Fairy Tales, 1974.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15810" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4761" RevisionGUID="c5d9da8f-311d-47a6-a0d6-ec25fb4642f6" CreationDate="2018-04-18T23:42:00.037" UserId="4982" Text="Cupid and Psyche have a happy ending." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15814" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4751" RevisionGUID="2b2cb256-1d44-4a31-bbbe-3750b81fb539" CreationDate="2018-04-19T02:19:41.100" UserId="4271" Comment="added 72 characters in body" Text="Questions pertaining to the Greek maiden goddess of the home and hearth." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15815" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4751" RevisionGUID="2b2cb256-1d44-4a31-bbbe-3750b81fb539" CreationDate="2018-04-19T02:19:41.100" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 2774, 967 edit id of 1624" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15816" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4756" RevisionGUID="2dadf02e-9c95-4650-9e47-f701a9fd323b" CreationDate="2018-04-19T04:20:37.503" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar, improved formatting, tweaked the title, &amp; tidied up the last story (with slight elaborations thereto)" Text="Phaedra and Hippolytus:  &#xD;&#xA;Phaedra is cursed to love her own stepson Hippolytus, who dies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Galatea and Acis:  &#xD;&#xA;Galatea attracts the love of Polyphemus, who kills her lover Acis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hero and Leander live on opposite sides of the Hellespont:   &#xD;&#xA;Leander swims to Hero's side guided by the light of a torch lit by Hero every night. A storm blows the torch out one night, Leander dies, and Hero drowns herself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Orpheus and Eurydice:  &#xD;&#xA;Eurydice is killed by a snake. Orpheus goes into the Underworld to get her back, but he fails, and is killed by the Maenads.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Alcyone and Ceyx:  &#xD;&#xA;Ceyx is killed by Zeus (that dick), and Alcyone drowns herself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pyramus and Thisbe were neighbors who fell in love with each other but their families, who were rivals, forbade them from getting married. They spoke to each other though a crack/hole in the fence. They were going to met up: Thisbe arrived first but, at the appointed meeting-place, encountered a lioness with bloody jaws from having just fed on some prey. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She fled, leaving her veil behind, which was bloodied and torn apart by the lioness. Pyramus arrived later and, upon seeing the lioness and the veil, assumed that Thisbe had been killed by the beast, and so he killed himself. Thisbe came back, saw Pyramus, and also killed herself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I could probably list tragic love-story endings all day, but that is why I ask this question. Do any Greek love stories/myths have happy endings?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15817" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4756" RevisionGUID="2dadf02e-9c95-4650-9e47-f701a9fd323b" CreationDate="2018-04-19T04:20:37.503" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar, improved formatting, tweaked the title, &amp; tidied up the last story (with slight elaborations thereto)" Text="Are there any love stories in Greek myth that don't have one or both dying?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15818" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4762" RevisionGUID="6d460636-1cce-45ee-b458-6301fb6c4df6" CreationDate="2018-04-19T10:30:04.123" UserId="2682" Text="Yes indeed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact there are at least two such stories which one might easily call typical happily-ever-after fairy-tale-style narratives, one of which is quite well-known and the other not enjoying quite as much renown.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The more famous story is that of **Pygmalion and Galatea**, though this Galatea is different from the Sicilian Nereid who gets involved with Acis and Polyphemus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Epaphus' daughter, Princess Lysianassa of Egypt, bore the sea-god Poseidon a son, Pygmalion, who became king of the island of Cyprus, where he carved from ivory an image of the goddess Aphrodite. He fell in love with this artwork of his, which he would kiss, caress, embrace, clothe and adorn with jewels and other finery which he offered to it as gifts. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the festival of Aphrodite he prayed to the gods to give him a wife who was like his ivory statue, and Aphrodite gave life to the sculpture itself so that it became a real woman. Pygmalion's (formerly sculptural) wife shortly afterwards bore him a daughter called Paphos, after whom the famous Cyprian city of Paphos was named. Aphrodite's sometimes-tragic lover Adonis was the grandson of Paphos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Wikipedia article on Galatea](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatea_(mythology)) notes that:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Though the name &quot;Galatea&quot; has become so firmly associated with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pygmalion's statue as to seem antique, its use in connection with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pygmalion originated with a post-classical writer. No extant ancient&#xD;&#xA;&gt; text mentions the statue's name... According to Meyer Reinhold, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; name &quot;Galatea&quot; was first given wide circulation in Jean-Jacques&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Rousseau's *scène lyrique* of 1762, *Pygmalion*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The other story is that of **Daphnis and Pimplea**. The demigod poet herdsman Daphnis, a son of Hermes, is typically a tragic love-story character in the works of better-known writers such as Parthenius, Theocritus, Aelian, Virgil and Diodorus Siculus. There is a fragment, however, which remains of an otherwise lost play by Sositheus, which tells of how Daphnis became king of Phrygia. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;King Lytierses of Phrygia, whenever a stranger arrived in his domain, would challenge him to a contest of harvesting wheat to see who could gather the most sheaves in one day, both competitors beginning at the same time. If his opponent’s strength flagged in the course of performing the task, Lytierses whipped him. The king would always win and then behead his opponent and conceal the body in one of the sheaves while chanting a lugubrious dirge.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Daphnis, a reclusive shepherd who lived in Sicily (like Polyphemus, Acis and Galatea), tended his flocks all year long on Mt Aetna. Daphnis's sweetheart, a young woman named Pimplea, was kidnapped by pirates and sold into slavery. Daphnis searched for her &quot;throughout the world&quot;, as Robert Graves puts it, before finding her among the slave-girls of Lytierses. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Daphnis was roped into the Phrygian king's customary contest, but it just so happened that the great hero Heracles had also presently arrived in the country, and offered to take Daphnis’ place in the competition. Heracles defeated Lytierses and decapitated him with a sickle, casting the king’s beheaded corpse into the local river Maeander. From then on Phrygian reapers honoured Lytierses with a dirge during the harvest. Heracles then enthroned Daphnis as Lytierses' successor, and for the wedding of Daphnis and Pimplea, he provided the bride with the former king's palace for her dowry.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are several other examples too.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Lynceus and Hypermnestra**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pygmalion's half-brother and cousin Belus (for Poseidon was his father but Lysianassa's sister Libya was his mother) had twin sons Aegyptus and Danaus to whom, from his vast empire, he gave the kingdoms of Arabia and Libya as their respective inheritances. Aegyptus further conquered the territory which lay in between his own and that of his brother in Africa and named his new kingdom after himself Aegyptus, &quot;Egypt.&quot; The twins quarrelled about this and Danaus, feeling threatened by his brother, took his fifty daughters with him to their ancestral homeland of Argos in Greece, where Danaus was awarded the throne of that city.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aegyptus, who had wanted his fifty sons to marry his fifty nieces, sent the sons after their uncle and cousins. They caught up with them, whereupon Danaus agreed to the mass wedding but instructed the brides to kill their bridegrooms in their beds on the wedding night. Daggers having been provided for this, all the brides obeyed their father except for one, Hypermnestra (who name means &quot;Super-Bride&quot;), who spared her groom, Lynceus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For her disobedience, Hypermnestra was judged guilty by Danaus and sentenced to be cast into a dungeon, but eventually they were reconciled and Hypermnestra was reunited to Lynceus. In order to acquire new grooms for his other forty-nine children, who were now notorious as husband-slayers, Danaus held an athletic contest whose prizes were these young women, and thus they were all remarried. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although Athena and Hermes purified Hypermnestra's sisters of their husbands' murder, after their own deaths, they were sent to Tartarus for punishment. In revenge for the death of his brothers, Lynceus later killed Danaus, whom he then succeeded as king of Argos. Hypermnestra bore Lynceus a son, Abas. Perseus, the Gorgon-slayer, was a great-grandson of Abas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Cadmus and Harmonia**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Belus himself had a twin brother, Agenor, whose son Cadmus arrived in Greece searching for his sister Europa, who had been abducted by Zeus. Cadmus founded the city of Thebes, and shortly before he built the city, he killed a dragon which was the offspring of Ares. With help from the other gods, however, he was able to marry Ares' daughter Harmonia. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The couple suffered a string of family catastrophes mostly involving their children and grandchildren but afterwards they migrated to Illyria in what is now Croatia and Albania, and battled the locals there where they founded a new kingdom. Eventually they were transformed by the gods into dragons and afterwards, having been restored to humanoid form, they were granted immortality and transferred to the Islands of the Blessed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Dionysus and Ariadne**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The wine-god Dionysus was a grandson of Cadmus and Harmonia. Princess Ariadne of Crete Island was a granddaughter of Zeus and Europa, making her Dionysus' second cousin. After Theseus abandoned Ariadne on the island of Naxos, Dionysus found her there and married her, granting her immortality.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Bïas and Pero**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The brothers Melampus and Bïas were grandsons of Abas. Bïas fell in love with his own cousin Pero, and Melampus went through a convoluted adventure in order to win Pero's hand in marriage on his brother's behalf. He eventually succeeded and Bïas was wed to Pero. The Argonauts Talaus, Areius and Laodocus were their sons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Odysseus and Penelope**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odysseus helped Tyndareus to solve the issue of the numerous suitors of Tyndareus' stepdaughter Helen. In return Tyndareus convinced his brother Icarius to give *his* own daughter Penelope's hand in marriage to Odysseus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As Odysseus was taking Penelope, Icarius pursued her, imploring his daughter to stay with him. Odysseus gave Penelope the option to do just that. In response, she modestly covered her face with a veil, indicating her desire to leave with her bridegroom. On the spot where this happened, Icarius later put up a statue of Aidos, the personification of modesty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the core of the saga of the *Odyssey* is the story of Odysseus, in the aftermath of the Trojan War, trying to get back home to his wife and his son. It ends after he has succeeded, reunited with his family, whom he has not seen in twenty years. Later on Odysseus and Penelope die in peaceful old age. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(There are certain other sequels to the Odyssey, however, in which Odysseus' adventures continue. In one of these stories, Odysseus is slain by Telegonus, his own son by the immortal witch Circe, Telegonus not knowing that Odysseus is his father. Telegonus bitterly regrets the death he has caused but afterwards he even marries his father's widow Penelope, who bears him a son, Italus, who becomes a king in Italy, which gets its name from him.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Acontius and Cydippe**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Acontius was a handsome young man from the island of Ceos. At the annual festival of Artemis on the island of Delos, he fell in love with an Athenian aristocrat named Cydippe. While she was sitting in the temple, he threw before her an apple upon which he had written, &quot;I swear by the sanctuary of Artemis to marry Acontius.&quot; Cydippe read aloud what was written thereon and then threw the apple away. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Cydippe's father was about to give her in marriage to another man, she fell sick three times just before the nuptial solemnities were about to begin. The Delphic oracle declared that Artemis was punishing Cydippe for perjury, whereupon Cydippe explained the whole affair to her mother, and the father was induced to give his daughter to Acontius.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a tragic doublet of this story which Antoninus Liberalis tells in his *Metamorphoses*, where the young man, Hermochares, is the Athenian while the young woman, Ctesylla, is from Ceos. The narrative ends after Ctesylla has died in labour. For further detail on that, see [the story of Hermochares and Ctesylla](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ctesylla).          " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15819" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4763" RevisionGUID="e6851ca8-8b9a-4665-b17c-92a099d58aeb" CreationDate="2018-04-19T15:17:48.343" UserId="4271" Text="I came across a portion of Myth a while back. It said something like gorgon's blood taken from one side of the body can heal any malady but the other side can kill instantly. Who is this writing (for multiple sources- Who are these writings) attributed to?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15820" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4763" RevisionGUID="e6851ca8-8b9a-4665-b17c-92a099d58aeb" CreationDate="2018-04-19T15:17:48.343" UserId="4271" Text="Who wrote about gorgon's blood?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15821" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4763" RevisionGUID="e6851ca8-8b9a-4665-b17c-92a099d58aeb" CreationDate="2018-04-19T15:17:48.343" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|myth-identification|monsters|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15822" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4764" RevisionGUID="581c7371-320d-4097-9686-2f874f1955a1" CreationDate="2018-04-19T16:58:12.853" UserId="4271" Text="I do not mean Thalia the muse/grace/nereid. I speak of [Thalia the nymph][1], daughter of Hephaestus. She has a stub Wikipedia page that says Zeus forced he in the form of an eagle and buried her body to avoid Hera's jealousy. But , it makes no note of who Thalia's mother was.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalia_(nymph)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15823" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4764" RevisionGUID="581c7371-320d-4097-9686-2f874f1955a1" CreationDate="2018-04-19T16:58:12.853" UserId="4271" Text="Who was Thalia's mother?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15824" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4764" RevisionGUID="581c7371-320d-4097-9686-2f874f1955a1" CreationDate="2018-04-19T16:58:12.853" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|nymphs|hephaestus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15825" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4765" RevisionGUID="95b74f04-37aa-489e-b87d-bf5e396989f6" CreationDate="2018-04-19T17:14:05.503" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="Perhaps non-translucent materials suitable for use as projectiles reflect the person's intention back on him who wishes to harm the fext, and glass, which is translucent, does not? One would have a neat pair of binary opposites here: metaphorically reflective and non-reflective, and physically non-translucent and translucent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is just a guess. It could also be something to do with the amount of knowledge that has gone into making the glass, especially if it is a special kind. As [an amorphous or non-crystalline solid][1], glass is weird - it is practically [its own state of matter][2] - and this too might be relevant, analogously to the &quot;neither day nor night&quot; nature of twilight.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorphous_solid&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_matter#Glass" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15826" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4766" RevisionGUID="1ba8727d-8f7e-4aa7-b9a2-055b6713a430" CreationDate="2018-04-19T17:32:42.620" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15827" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4766" RevisionGUID="1ba8727d-8f7e-4aa7-b9a2-055b6713a430" CreationDate="2018-04-19T17:32:42.620" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15828" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4767" RevisionGUID="fa61ac5d-9a54-46f3-95e7-a1163951b8c2" CreationDate="2018-04-19T17:32:42.620" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15829" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4767" RevisionGUID="fa61ac5d-9a54-46f3-95e7-a1163951b8c2" CreationDate="2018-04-19T17:32:42.620" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15830" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4768" RevisionGUID="a3658bb5-43ce-4d08-8443-ea189203c838" CreationDate="2018-04-19T17:37:27.917" UserId="4271" Text="Allow me to clarify. I found an interesting choice words on the Wikipedia article on [Hades][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hades obtained his wife and queen, Persephone, through abduction at the behest of Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Retrieved 4/19/2018&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It uses the word &quot;behest.&quot; To my understanding, behest means ordered or commanded. If this word is held true in the original, it means not only did Zeus give Hades permission to take Persephone, he gave a divine command as King of the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I ask for an answer that includes the original Greek (or language the original was written in) and a variety of translations of that work for cross comparison reasons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For simplicity, the extent of the translation should be limited specifically to Hades going to Olympus, asking for Persephone and Zeus's response.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades#Greek_god_of_the_underworld" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15831" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4768" RevisionGUID="a3658bb5-43ce-4d08-8443-ea189203c838" CreationDate="2018-04-19T17:37:27.917" UserId="4271" Text="Original Myth and translation of Hades asking to kidnap Persephone" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15832" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4768" RevisionGUID="a3658bb5-43ce-4d08-8443-ea189203c838" CreationDate="2018-04-19T17:37:27.917" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|source-request|hades|translation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15834" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4770" RevisionGUID="73d90719-b710-467b-b30e-6af0e4f2f62c" CreationDate="2018-04-19T18:18:05.703" UserId="4271" Text="A true name, to my limited understanding, is a concept of a name(s)/phrase specific to one person/being that gives the speaker power over the person the true name belongs to. It is a semi-popular concept in media, but not often used. I was wonder which cultures/Mythologies this came from." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15835" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4770" RevisionGUID="73d90719-b710-467b-b30e-6af0e4f2f62c" CreationDate="2018-04-19T18:18:05.703" UserId="4271" Text="Which cultures have the concept of a &quot;true&quot; or &quot;secret name?&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15836" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4770" RevisionGUID="73d90719-b710-467b-b30e-6af0e4f2f62c" CreationDate="2018-04-19T18:18:05.703" UserId="4271" Text="|names|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15837" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4771" RevisionGUID="f09b13f8-f30f-4812-bef5-9f50d93e8203" CreationDate="2018-04-19T18:20:05.093" UserId="2682" Text="The writing, entitled the *Bibliotheca*, &quot;Library,&quot; used to be attributed to the Athenian historian Apollodorus, but, as Wikipedia says, 'that attribution is now regarded as false, and so &quot;Pseudo-&quot; was added to Apollodorus' so that one now reads about 'Pseudo-Apollodorus' (*pseudo* meaning 'false') penning that work, whose actual author is apparently unknown. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reference to which you are referring is [*Bibliotheca* 3.10.3](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Apollod.+3.10.3), which relates the career of the physician Asclepius:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Having become a surgeon, and carried the art to a great pitch, he not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; only prevented some from dying, but even raised up the dead; for he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; had received from Athena the blood that flowed from the veins of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gorgon, and while he used the blood that flowed from the veins on the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; left side for the bane of mankind, he used the blood that flowed from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the right side for salvation, and by that means he raised the dead. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; I found some who are reported to have been raised by him, to wit:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Capaneus and Lycurgus, as Stesichorus says in the [book] *Eriphyle*;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hippolytus, as the author of the *Naupactica* reports; Tyndareus, as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Panyasis says; Hymenaeus, as the Orphics report; and Glaucus, son of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Minos, as Melesagoras relates.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Egyptian writer [Nonnus](http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Gorgones.html#Blood), in Book 44 of his epic the *Dionysiaca*, says that one of the Erinnyes collected some of Medusa's blood shortly after the Gorgon was slain. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15838" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4772" RevisionGUID="52cd2c6b-c464-433a-8458-6e7005c8ef57" CreationDate="2018-04-19T19:01:27.957" UserId="4271" Text="Cheating on their significant other is common in Greek Myth. I have only found four gods that remain faithful: Hera, Amphitrite, Eros and Phyche (gods that didn't marry can't exactly cheat). Examples of infidelity are...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Zeus and Io&#xD;&#xA; - Poseidon and Aphrodite&#xD;&#xA; - Hephaestus and Aglae&#xD;&#xA; - Hades and Minte&#xD;&#xA; - Persephone and Adonis&#xD;&#xA; - ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15839" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4772" RevisionGUID="52cd2c6b-c464-433a-8458-6e7005c8ef57" CreationDate="2018-04-19T19:01:27.957" UserId="4271" Text="Are there any other Greek gods/goddess that actually remained loyal to their counterpart?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15840" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4772" RevisionGUID="52cd2c6b-c464-433a-8458-6e7005c8ef57" CreationDate="2018-04-19T19:01:27.957" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|love|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15842" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2489" RevisionGUID="fbc93f55-9340-4dfe-b382-6d657b123d7f" CreationDate="2018-04-20T02:06:01.937" UserId="2807" Comment="Added 'medieval-europe' tag" Text="|myth-identification|medieval-europe|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15843" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4772" RevisionGUID="9e01936b-dbd8-4dd3-a180-5bb152ebdcdf" CreationDate="2018-04-20T05:01:38.687" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected spelling, fixed grammar &amp; improved formatting" Text="Cheating on one's significant other is common in Greek Myth. I have only found four gods that remain faithful: Hera, Amphitrite, Eros and Psyche (while gods that didn't marry can't exactly cheat). Examples of infidelity are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Zeus and Io&#xD;&#xA; - Poseidon and Aphrodite&#xD;&#xA; - Hephaestus and Aglaea&#xD;&#xA; - Hades and Minthe&#xD;&#xA; - Persephone and Adonis" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15844" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4772" RevisionGUID="9e01936b-dbd8-4dd3-a180-5bb152ebdcdf" CreationDate="2018-04-20T05:01:38.687" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected spelling, fixed grammar &amp; improved formatting" Text="Are there any other Greek gods/goddesses that actually remained loyal to their counterpart?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15845" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4773" RevisionGUID="af581263-e6ab-42e6-9bd1-9127cdf7adea" CreationDate="2018-04-20T14:22:41.677" UserId="4271" Text="Near the end of Book II of the Iliad, Homer says that if he had nine tongues, he could not list all those that came. He then lists as many as he can. Do other authors add to the list?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15846" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4773" RevisionGUID="af581263-e6ab-42e6-9bd1-9127cdf7adea" CreationDate="2018-04-20T14:22:41.677" UserId="4271" Text="Who came to Troy?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15847" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4773" RevisionGUID="af581263-e6ab-42e6-9bd1-9127cdf7adea" CreationDate="2018-04-20T14:22:41.677" UserId="4271" Text="|trojan-war|iliad|homer|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15848" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4774" RevisionGUID="07c0470c-d5bd-4500-b364-fc2c99979056" CreationDate="2018-04-20T14:55:36.890" UserId="4271" Text="Looking for the Shino (Japanese) equivalent of nymphs and natures spirits, I found [Kami][1]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they can also be the spirits of venerated dead persons. Many kami are considered the ancient ancestors of entire clans (*some ancestors became kami upon their death if they were able to embody the values and virtues of kami in life*)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This says in order for a human to become a Kami, they must have had the virtues and values of a kami. But in the next paragraph...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Shinto, kami are not separate from nature, but are of nature, possessing positive and negative, and good and evil characteristics.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;... it says kami can be good and evil. So, how are the virtues measured? If you can be either good or evil, does that mean everyone can become a kami?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kami" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15849" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4774" RevisionGUID="07c0470c-d5bd-4500-b364-fc2c99979056" CreationDate="2018-04-20T14:55:36.890" UserId="4271" Text="Human become Kami in death if they possess the qualities of Kami in life. Kami have both good and evil qualities. What does this mean?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15850" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4774" RevisionGUID="07c0470c-d5bd-4500-b364-fc2c99979056" CreationDate="2018-04-20T14:55:36.890" UserId="4271" Text="|japanese|shinto|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15851" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4775" RevisionGUID="77b031bd-ad50-4bff-97b4-a1c928e2e670" CreationDate="2018-04-20T17:51:11.350" UserId="4987" Text="Looking for themes that can be found throughout different mythologies so that I can compare and contrast the story of them. A few themes I have thought about were creation myths, flood myths, and apocalypse myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, some of these might not exist, as I am having trouble finding Apocalypse or flood myths for Japanese mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any theme suggestions would be great! Thanks in advance! " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15852" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4775" RevisionGUID="77b031bd-ad50-4bff-97b4-a1c928e2e670" CreationDate="2018-04-20T17:51:11.350" UserId="4987" Text="What themes can be found throughout most mythologies? (Flood, Apocalypse, etc)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15853" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4775" RevisionGUID="77b031bd-ad50-4bff-97b4-a1c928e2e670" CreationDate="2018-04-20T17:51:11.350" UserId="4987" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15854" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4776" RevisionGUID="63d4f0c3-c5d3-4b63-8457-a8075e8abf7b" CreationDate="2018-04-20T18:52:03.033" UserId="4271" Text="Last year, I was handed a worksheet. It was an expert of an autobiography, if I recall correctly. A young, African American girl (8-10) had to read in front of class (or it was her turn to read) and read articulated enough, that she was encouraged to keep reading after she was sopposed to stop. She noted (later on) how she loved the Myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One part I remember that she spoke of Heracles. She said he was given a choice between Duty and Pleasure and was happy he picked Duty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can anyone recall a version a the Myth like this?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15855" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4776" RevisionGUID="63d4f0c3-c5d3-4b63-8457-a8075e8abf7b" CreationDate="2018-04-20T18:52:03.033" UserId="4271" Text="Version of Myth were Heracles chooses duty over pleasure?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15856" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4776" RevisionGUID="63d4f0c3-c5d3-4b63-8457-a8075e8abf7b" CreationDate="2018-04-20T18:52:03.033" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|hercules|modern-influence|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15857" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4777" RevisionGUID="43132f46-26f8-4660-a8af-fa21ca0699fd" CreationDate="2018-04-20T19:23:44.523" UserDisplayName="user4660" Text="- Love&#xD;&#xA;- War&#xD;&#xA;- Food&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are themes for all mythologies." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15858" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4586" RevisionGUID="9cf11bce-8015-4151-a078-b09812ef56e9" CreationDate="2018-04-20T23:56:13.517" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="15860" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3352" RevisionGUID="fb9c9b87-917b-4b65-b7da-8b127ced08d2" CreationDate="2018-04-21T00:56:22.693" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="15861" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1544" RevisionGUID="4a6af1ac-c704-4dc5-9c16-f4fb45a0e574" CreationDate="2018-04-21T01:35:30.297" UserId="1224" Comment="missed one ;)" Text="Charybdis, and its counterpart Scylla were two monsters in the Odyssey. However, according to Ovid's *Metamorphoses*, Scylla was once a nymph.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;... had she not been transformed before they came into a reef whose rocks rise up today, and sailors shun her still and steer away.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was Charybdis too once something else? And what did Charybdis do before Scylla?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15862" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3045" RevisionGUID="5bdac44e-e150-44b7-97ed-99d34788b3ef" CreationDate="2018-04-21T01:38:28.820" UserId="2807" Comment="Corrected small typo" Text="We should perhaps first note that vampires are hardly the only creatures that can not stand sunlight; it is a common attribute among mystical creatures that they only appear at night, and that some of them die in sunlight (we can take as examples Grendel of *Beowulf*, and the Chinese [jiangshi][1], a creature that originally was a reanimated corpse that died when exposed to sunlight, but has acquired more attributes of Western vampires in modern lore). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This general association with the night seems to have been a feature of the early folklore vampires, one of the few aspects that survives into the modern vampire (in folklore, the vampire is a dirty, wild, bloated thing, governed by primal urges; they seem more akin to zombies than Count Dracula). It also featured in the vampire works that saw a huge boom in the early 19th century, such as Byron's *[The Giaour][2]*, in which the titular creature is doomed to walk the earth at night and drain the blood of everyone in his family. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This also illustrated why, even if the step from &quot;only appears at night&quot; to &quot;dies if exposed to sun&quot; is not a long one, it took a while to take it: early vampires tended to be cursed to walk the earth in tragic isolation. For someone cursed like that, having such an easy way to kill themselves was obviously not a useful trait. In stories where vampires were antagonists (more or less monstrous), having them be killed off by something as ordinary as sunlight would easily be seen as anti-climatic; far better to have a showdown with fire or wooden poles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;I have checked two books in Swedish about vampires:&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA; - Katarina Harrison Lindbergh's *Vampyrernas historia*, an accessible general history. She does not spend much time on the sun motif, but notes that it is indeed present in the folklore.&#xD;&#xA; -  Anna Höglund's *Vampyrer*, based on her doctoral thesis. Much more scholarly, but sadly lacking a useful index. It does give many interesting perspectives on how the vampire mythos developed in the Western world. I could, however, not find any discussion about this particular aspect, perhaps because it does not seem to carry the same amount of significance as other aspects.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiangshi&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Giaour" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15863" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3045" RevisionGUID="5bdac44e-e150-44b7-97ed-99d34788b3ef" CreationDate="2018-04-21T01:38:28.820" Comment="Proposed by 2807 approved by 2682, 4271 edit id of 1626" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15864" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4778" RevisionGUID="23655a52-1c4b-4c0f-acab-c9512cc90c91" CreationDate="2018-04-21T01:38:56.937" UserId="2682" Text="Yup, there sure are. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;(It might be a noteworthy consideration that most of them are female deities.)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sea-god **Nereus** and his wife the Oceanid **Doris** were faithful to each other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sea-goddess **Eurybia**, wife of the Titan Creius&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Titaness **Tethys**, wife of her own brother Oceanus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Titaness **Mnemosyne**, Goddess of Memory, who, in Hesiod's *Theogony*, is Zeus's fifth wife &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Erebus**, the primaeval personification of darkness, who was married to the night-goddess Nyx&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hemera**, the primordial personification of daytime, who was married to Aether&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Uranus**, the original sky-god, who was married to his own mother Gaia, the Earth &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;*Sidenote 1:* The poetess Sappho says that Eros was the son of Uranus and Aphrodite, but Aaron Atsma interprets this as meaning that Aphrodite herself was born pregnant, with Eros in her womb, she herself having formed out of the severed genitalia of Uranus mingling with the salt-foam of the sea. Besides, the more common parentages of Eros do not involve Uranus.&lt;/sup&gt;   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The river-god **Hydaspes**, in India, who was married to the nymph Astris&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Arcadian river-god **Ladon**, who was married to Stymphalis&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A few Oceanids: the aforementioned sea-goddess Doris; **Electra** (wife of the sea-god Thaumas); **Meliboea** (wife of King Pelasgus of Pelasgia, which later became Arcadia); and the youngest Oceanid **Eidyia** (wife of King Aeetes of Colchis).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Iris**, wife of Zephyrus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hebe**, who married Heracles [Hercules] after he became a god&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Nereid **Thetis**, wife of the Myrmidon king Peleus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Nereid **Iphianassa**, wife of King Enydmion of Elis (though there are different versions of who this king's wife was).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Rhode**, wife of Helios&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Benthesicyme**, who married a king of Aethiopia [Ethiopia] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Nephele**, wife of the Boeotian king Athamas&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Sidenote 2:* Regarding Eros: in Book 32 of his *Dionysiaca*, Nonnus quotes Hera as devising an elaborate fiction by which to deceive Zeus. In it she says that Eros has become infatuated with the Oceanid Rhodope so much so that he has even abandoned his duties as the god of love.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Since Nonnus does not mention Psyche, who, besides that, appears to be a purely allegorical character invented by Apuleius, it is unclear whether Eros is at this point is to be understood as being married. The point might be moot, however, since the business with Rhodope could all be part of Hera's lie.&lt;/sub&gt;       &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Sidenote 3:* Algaia (or Aglaea) shouldn't be on your infidelity examples list, by the way. She was legitimately married to Hephaestus (and was loyal to him).&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15865" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4778" RevisionGUID="53722f1c-eda7-4c85-8fdc-e9453c3c5dca" CreationDate="2018-04-21T05:01:47.733" UserId="2682" Comment="added some info" Text="Yup, there sure are. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;(It might be a noteworthy consideration that most of them are female deities.)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sea-god **Nereus** and his wife the Oceanid **Doris** were faithful to each other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sea-goddess **Eurybia**, wife of the Titan Creius&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Titaness **Tethys**, wife of her own brother Oceanus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Titaness **Mnemosyne**, Goddess of Memory, who, in Hesiod's *Theogony*, is Zeus's fifth wife &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Erebus**, the primaeval personification of darkness, who was married to the night-goddess Nyx&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hemera**, the primordial personification of daytime, who was married to Aether&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Uranus**, the original sky-god, who was married to his own mother Gaia, the Earth &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;*Sidenote 1:* The poetess Sappho says that Eros was the son of Uranus and Aphrodite, but Aaron Atsma interprets this as meaning that Aphrodite herself was born pregnant, with Eros in her womb, she herself having formed out of the severed genitalia of Uranus mingling with the salt-foam of the sea. Besides, the more common parentages of Eros do not involve Uranus.&lt;/sup&gt;   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The river-god **Hydaspes**, in India, who was married to the nymph Astris&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Arcadian river-god **Ladon**, who was married to Stymphalis&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Sicilian river-god **Anapus**, who, in Ovid's *Metamorphoses*, is married to the nymph Cyane&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A few Oceanids: the aforementioned sea-goddess Doris; **Electra** (wife of the sea-god Thaumas); **Meliboea** (wife of King Pelasgus of Pelasgia, which later became Arcadia); and the youngest Oceanid **Eidyia** (wife of King Aeetes of Colchis).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Iris**, wife of Zephyrus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hebe**, who married Heracles [Hercules] after he became a god&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Nereid **Thetis**, wife of the Myrmidon king Peleus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Nereid **Iphianassa**, wife of King Enydmion of Elis (though there are different versions of who this king's wife was).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Rhode**, wife of Helios&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Benthesicyme**, who married a king of Aethiopia [Ethiopia] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Nephele**, wife of the Boeotian king Athamas&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Sidenote 2:* Regarding Eros: in Book 32 of his *Dionysiaca*, Nonnus quotes Hera as devising an elaborate fiction by which to deceive Zeus. In it she says that Eros has become infatuated with the Oceanid Rhodope so much so that he has even abandoned his duties as the god of love.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Since Nonnus does not mention Psyche, who, besides that, appears to be a purely allegorical character invented by Apuleius, it is unclear whether Eros is at this point is to be understood as being married. The point might be moot, however, since the business with Rhodope could all be part of Hera's lie.&lt;/sub&gt;       &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Sidenote 3:* Algaia (or Aglaea) shouldn't be on your infidelity examples list, by the way. She was legitimately married to Hephaestus (and was loyal to him).&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15866" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4767" RevisionGUID="a0b4c2b9-837a-4fd1-81e8-0c67a33734b1" CreationDate="2018-04-21T11:05:15.283" UserId="4271" Comment="added 51 characters in body" Text="For questions requesting a translation of any sort." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15867" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4767" RevisionGUID="a0b4c2b9-837a-4fd1-81e8-0c67a33734b1" CreationDate="2018-04-21T11:05:15.283" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 1241, 2774 edit id of 1625" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15868" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4583" RevisionGUID="f8e639a9-a837-4531-ae97-ce4ea9ebec5d" CreationDate="2018-04-21T13:59:29.203" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="15872" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2469" RevisionGUID="dc9a3a3a-169f-4fa1-9b2b-4f9109c0a881" CreationDate="2018-04-22T03:15:44.497" UserId="2807" Comment="Added 'oracle' tag" Text="|greek|myth-identification|oracle|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15877" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3249" RevisionGUID="a5142197-a0da-426f-a312-60e1d6ffb8fa" CreationDate="2018-04-22T11:58:42.320" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="Corrected links.." Text="I'm trying to find a difference between two _Le Morte d'Arthur_ editions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The first was printed in 1886, prepared by Ernest Rhys, with introduction by himself. Single volume.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Malory's history of King Arthur and the Quest of the Holy Grail : from the Morte d'Arthur | archive.org][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The second (in two volumes) was printed in 1906 and was reprinted many times, the last edition I could find on Archive.Org dated to 1956. Prepared also by Ernest Rhys, with introduction by John Rhys.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Vol. 1: Le morte d'Arthur | archive.org][2]&#xD;&#xA; - [Vol. 2: Le morte d'Arthur | archive.org][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the introduction to 1886 edition, it is stated that the text is abridged (page xxxiv):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Malory's _Book_ really resolves itself into three great divisions: first, the history of King Arthur proper; second, the romances of Sir Launcelot and Sir Tristram de Lyoness [...]; and third, the Quest of the Grail. In the present version it has been thought well to omit the second of these two divisions, which it is proposed to afterwards issue as a volume by itself, complementary to this of King Arthur and the Quest of the Grail.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then, I made a table with side-by-side comparison between 1886 and 1956 editions. As I expected, the 1886 edition omits a lot of &quot;Books&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But, I also discovered, that there are two mysterious &quot;Books&quot;, preserved in 1886, but omitted in 1956 edition. Here they are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][5]][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The question:** Why these &quot;Books&quot; are omitted in 1956 edition?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The full table in Word: **https://ufile.io/ffoeu**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://archive.org/details/maloryshistoryof00maloiala&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://archive.org/details/lemortedart01malo&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://archive.org/details/lemortedarthu02malo&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/dkf96.png&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/4gNr4.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15878" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3249" RevisionGUID="a5142197-a0da-426f-a312-60e1d6ffb8fa" CreationDate="2018-04-22T11:58:42.320" Comment="Proposed by 4660 approved by 3177 edit id of 1627" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15879" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4762" RevisionGUID="5f7e4601-5383-4fa8-a219-b20a852c4bbb" CreationDate="2018-04-22T14:55:23.253" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="Yes indeed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact there are at least two such stories which one might easily call typical happily-ever-after fairy-tale-style narratives, one of which is quite well-known and the other not enjoying quite as much renown.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The more famous story is that of **Pygmalion and Galatea**, though this Galatea is different from the Sicilian Nereid who gets involved with Acis and Polyphemus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Epaphus' daughter, Princess Lysianassa of Egypt, bore the sea-god Poseidon a son, Pygmalion, who became king of the island of Cyprus, where he carved from ivory an image of the goddess Aphrodite. He fell in love with this artwork of his, which he would kiss, caress, embrace, clothe and adorn with jewels and other finery which he offered to it as gifts. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the festival of Aphrodite he prayed to the gods to give him a wife who was like his ivory statue, and Aphrodite gave life to the sculpture itself so that it became a real woman. Pygmalion's (formerly sculptural) wife shortly afterwards bore him a daughter called Paphos, after whom the famous Cyprian city of Paphos was named. Aphrodite's sometimes-tragic lover Adonis was the grandson of Paphos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Wikipedia article on Galatea](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatea_(mythology)) notes that:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Though the name &quot;Galatea&quot; has become so firmly associated with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pygmalion's statue as to seem antique, its use in connection with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pygmalion originated with a post-classical writer. No extant ancient&#xD;&#xA;&gt; text mentions the statue's name... According to Meyer Reinhold, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; name &quot;Galatea&quot; was first given wide circulation in Jean-Jacques&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Rousseau's *scène lyrique* of 1762, *Pygmalion*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The other story is that of **Daphnis and Pimplea**. The demigod poet herdsman Daphnis, a son of Hermes, is typically a tragic love-story character in the works of better-known writers such as Parthenius, Theocritus, Aelian, Virgil and Diodorus Siculus. There is a fragment, however, which remains of an otherwise lost play by Sositheus, which tells of how Daphnis became king of Phrygia. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;King Lytierses of Phrygia, whenever a stranger arrived in his domain, would challenge him to a contest of harvesting wheat to see who could gather the most sheaves in one day, both competitors beginning at the same time. If his opponent’s strength flagged in the course of performing the task, Lytierses whipped him. The king would always win and then behead his opponent and conceal the body in one of the sheaves while chanting a lugubrious dirge.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Daphnis, a reclusive shepherd who lived in Sicily (like Polyphemus, Acis and Galatea), tended his flocks all year long on Mt Aetna. Daphnis's sweetheart, a young woman named Pimplea, was kidnapped by pirates and sold into slavery. Daphnis searched for her &quot;throughout the world&quot;, as Robert Graves puts it, before finding her among the slave-girls of Lytierses. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Daphnis was roped into the Phrygian king's customary contest, but it just so happened that the great hero Heracles had also presently arrived in the country, and offered to take Daphnis’ place in the competition. Heracles defeated Lytierses and decapitated him with a sickle, casting the king’s beheaded corpse into the local river Maeander. From then on Phrygian reapers honoured Lytierses with a dirge during the harvest. Heracles then enthroned Daphnis as Lytierses' successor, and for the wedding of Daphnis and Pimplea, he provided the bride with the former king's palace for her dowry.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are several other examples too.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Lynceus and Hypermnestra**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pygmalion's half-brother and cousin Belus (for Poseidon was his father but Lysianassa's sister Libya was his mother) had twin sons Aegyptus and Danaus to whom, from his vast empire, he gave the kingdoms of Arabia and Libya as their respective inheritances. Aegyptus further conquered the territory which lay in between his own and that of his brother in Africa and named his new kingdom after himself Aegyptus, &quot;Egypt.&quot; The twins quarrelled about this and Danaus, feeling threatened by his brother, took his fifty daughters with him to their ancestral homeland of Argos in Greece, where Danaus was awarded the throne of that city.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aegyptus, who had wanted his fifty sons to marry his fifty nieces, sent the sons after their uncle and cousins. They caught up with them, whereupon Danaus agreed to the mass wedding but instructed the brides to kill their bridegrooms in their beds on the wedding night. Daggers having been provided for this, all the brides obeyed their father except for one, Hypermnestra (whose name means &quot;Super-Bride&quot;), who spared her groom, Lynceus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For her disobedience, Hypermnestra was judged guilty by Danaus and sentenced to be cast into a dungeon, but eventually they were reconciled and Hypermnestra was reunited to Lynceus. In order to acquire new grooms for his other forty-nine children, who were now notorious as husband-slayers, Danaus held an athletic contest whose prizes were these young women, and thus they were all remarried. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although Athena and Hermes purified Hypermnestra's sisters of their husbands' murder, after their own deaths, they were sent to Tartarus for punishment. In revenge for the death of his brothers, Lynceus later killed Danaus, whom he then succeeded as king of Argos. Hypermnestra bore Lynceus a son, Abas. Perseus, the Gorgon-slayer, was a great-grandson of Abas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Cadmus and Harmonia**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Belus himself had a twin brother, Agenor, whose son Cadmus arrived in Greece searching for his sister Europa, who had been abducted by Zeus. Cadmus founded the city of Thebes, and shortly before he built the city, he killed a dragon which was the offspring of Ares. With help from the other gods, however, he was able to marry Ares' daughter Harmonia. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The couple suffered a string of family catastrophes mostly involving their children and grandchildren but afterwards they migrated to Illyria in what is now Croatia and Albania, and battled the locals there where they founded a new kingdom. Eventually they were transformed by the gods into dragons and afterwards, having been restored to humanoid form, they were granted immortality and transferred to the Islands of the Blessed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Dionysus and Ariadne**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The wine-god Dionysus was a grandson of Cadmus and Harmonia. Princess Ariadne of Crete Island was a granddaughter of Zeus and Europa, making her Dionysus' second cousin. After Theseus abandoned Ariadne on the island of Naxos, Dionysus found her there and married her, granting her immortality.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Bïas and Pero**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The brothers Melampus and Bïas were grandsons of Abas. Bïas fell in love with his own cousin Pero, and Melampus went through a convoluted adventure in order to win Pero's hand in marriage on his brother's behalf. He eventually succeeded and Bïas was wed to Pero. The Argonauts Talaus, Areius and Laodocus were their sons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Odysseus and Penelope**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odysseus helped Tyndareus to solve the issue of the numerous suitors of Tyndareus' stepdaughter Helen. In return Tyndareus convinced his brother Icarius to give *his* own daughter Penelope's hand in marriage to Odysseus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As Odysseus was taking Penelope, Icarius pursued her, imploring his daughter to stay with him. Odysseus gave Penelope the option to do just that. In response, she modestly covered her face with a veil, indicating her desire to leave with her bridegroom. On the spot where this happened, Icarius later put up a statue of Aidos, the personification of modesty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the core of the saga of the *Odyssey* is the story of Odysseus, in the aftermath of the Trojan War, trying to get back home to his wife and his son. It ends after he has succeeded, reunited with his family, whom he has not seen in twenty years. Later on Odysseus and Penelope die in peaceful old age. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(There are certain other sequels to the Odyssey, however, in which Odysseus' adventures continue. In one of these stories, Odysseus is slain by Telegonus, his own son by the immortal witch Circe, Telegonus not knowing that Odysseus is his father. Telegonus bitterly regrets the death he has caused but afterwards he even marries his father's widow Penelope, who bears him a son, Italus, who becomes a king in Italy, which gets its name from him.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Acontius and Cydippe**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Acontius was a handsome young man from the island of Ceos. At the annual festival of Artemis on the island of Delos, he fell in love with an Athenian aristocrat named Cydippe. While she was sitting in the temple, he threw before her an apple upon which he had written, &quot;I swear by the sanctuary of Artemis to marry Acontius.&quot; Cydippe read aloud what was written thereon and then threw the apple away. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Cydippe's father was about to give her in marriage to another man, she fell sick three times just before the nuptial solemnities were about to begin. The Delphic oracle declared that Artemis was punishing Cydippe for perjury, whereupon Cydippe explained the whole affair to her mother, and the father was induced to give his daughter to Acontius.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a tragic doublet of this story which Antoninus Liberalis tells in his *Metamorphoses*, where the young man, Hermochares, is the Athenian while the young woman, Ctesylla, is from Ceos. The narrative ends after Ctesylla has died in labour. For further detail on that, see [the story of Hermochares and Ctesylla](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ctesylla).          " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15880" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4779" RevisionGUID="37eefd2e-5e7b-4cb3-bf69-a7d5461f546a" CreationDate="2018-04-22T18:40:20.227" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="Many a child who has expressed indifference has had the following verse spoken to them:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Don’t care was made to care,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Don’t care was hung:  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Don’t care was put in a pot  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And boiled till he was done.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is its origin?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15881" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4779" RevisionGUID="37eefd2e-5e7b-4cb3-bf69-a7d5461f546a" CreationDate="2018-04-22T18:40:20.227" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="What was the origin of the nursery rhyme &quot;Don't care was made to care&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15882" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4779" RevisionGUID="37eefd2e-5e7b-4cb3-bf69-a7d5461f546a" CreationDate="2018-04-22T18:40:20.227" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="|folklore|nursery-rhymes|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15883" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4780" RevisionGUID="715d5b8b-6635-4791-aab2-c12e4d45c7b9" CreationDate="2018-04-22T19:09:59.977" UserId="4962" Text="Looks like the author is unknown; but it’s origins appear to be mid-1800s London’s East End. The full rhythm is:&#xA;&#xA;Don’t Care&#xA;&#xA;Don’t care didn’t care,&#xA;&#xA;Don’t care was wild:&#xA;&#xA;Don’t care stole plum and pear&#xA;&#xA;Like any beggar’s child.&#xA;&#xA;Don’t care was made to care,&#xA;&#xA;Don’t care was hung:&#xA;&#xA;Don’t care was put in a pot&#xA;&#xA;And boiled till he was done.&#xA;&#xA;https://everything2.com/user/Tem42/writeups/Don%2527t+care+didn%2527t+care" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15884" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4780" RevisionGUID="d63e8852-e4b4-4ede-a179-04ce7077a50e" CreationDate="2018-04-22T19:42:54.653" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="Formatting" Text="Looks like the author is unknown; but it’s origins appear to be mid-1800s London’s East End. The full rhythm is:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Don’t care didn’t care,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Don’t care was wild:  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Don’t care stole plum and pear  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Like any beggar’s child.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Don’t care was made to care,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Don’t care was hung:  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Don’t care was put in a pot  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And boiled till he was done.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://everything2.com/user/Tem42/writeups/Don%2527t+care+didn%2527t+care" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15885" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4781" RevisionGUID="41cd4d83-a6ef-4d7f-b910-22b4620ecc39" CreationDate="2018-04-23T01:50:38.367" UserId="4271" Text="Nymphs, for the most part, are nature spirits that inhabit a number of region in nature. Most popularly known are river nymphs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did the Greeks believed nymphs were present in every river?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15886" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4781" RevisionGUID="41cd4d83-a6ef-4d7f-b910-22b4620ecc39" CreationDate="2018-04-23T01:50:38.367" UserId="4271" Text="Was it believed that nymphs were present in every river?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15887" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4781" RevisionGUID="41cd4d83-a6ef-4d7f-b910-22b4620ecc39" CreationDate="2018-04-23T01:50:38.367" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|nymphs|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15888" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4782" RevisionGUID="cd053877-ede4-4a91-8fa4-b4c7c5acbc4e" CreationDate="2018-04-23T03:02:14.403" UserId="4962" Text="&gt; Homer, Iliad 20. 4 ff ff (trans. Lattimore) (Greek epic C8th B.C.) :&#xA;&quot;But Zeus, from the many-folded peak of Olympos, told Themis to summon all the gods into assembly. She went everywhere, and told them to make thier way to Zeus' house. *There was no River [Potamoi] that was not there*, except only Okeanos (Oceanus), there was not one of the Nymphai (Nymphs) who live in the lovely groves (alsea) [i.e. Dryades], and the springs of rivers (pegai potamon) [i.e. Naiades] and the grassy meadows (pisea poiêenta), who came not. These all assembling into the house of Zeus cloud-gathering took places among the smooth-stone cloister walks.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;Every river had a river god [Potamoi]. &#xA;&#xA;https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naiad&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The Naiad nymphs were sometimes classified by domain:--&#xA;(1) Pegaiai (Pegaeae) were the nymphs of springs;&#xA;(2) Krenaiai (Crenaeae) were naiads of fountains;&#xA;(3) Potameides presided over rivers and streams;&#xA;(4) Limnades and Limnatides inhabited lakes; and&#xA;(5) Heleionomai were the nymphs of marshes and wetlands.&#xA;&#xA;http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/Naiades.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15889" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4783" RevisionGUID="c830303e-3118-4f0f-b6df-cfeee924ea1d" CreationDate="2018-04-23T05:37:14.240" UserId="2682" Text="[![Athanassakis Homeric Hymn to Demeter 1-3][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sub&gt;*`Homeric Hymn to Demeter 1-3 (A.N. Athanassakis translation)`*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;No Ancient Greek source that I have come across explicitly mentions Hades asking for Persephone. In one way or another they all say simply that Zeus gave Persephone to his brother, and that the giveaway method was the fairly common worldwide practice of bride-kidnapping, which in some instances would happen with the consent of the bride's father, often with the mother having no say in the matter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The wording of that sentence in the Wikipedia article is the source of the confusion here, as it could be read to mean that out of the blue (as it were), Zeus accosted Hades and issued him this directive of &quot;obtaining&quot; Persephone. But that's not how the story really goes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is indeed a perspicuous ancient report of Hades following the expected custom of asking for his prospective bride's hand in marriage from her father. The source of the quote, however, is Roman, from Hyginus' *Fabulae*, regarding which see below.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Homeric Hymn to Demeter&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Your Wikipedia reference appears to have come out of [**the translation by Gregory Nagy**](https://chs.harvard.edu/CHS/article/display/5292), from Harvard University's Center for Hellenic Studies, of the Homeric Hymn to Demeter (written c. the 500s BC), the relevant portion thereof being when Hades nabs Persephone in Lines 30-32:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **She was being taken, against her will, at the behest of Zeus**,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; by her father's brother, the one who makes many *sēmata*, the one who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; receives many guests,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; the son of Kronos, the one with many names. On the chariot drawn by immortal horses.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sub&gt;(*Emphasis mine*)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some other translations render it as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Unwilling was Persephone, but her father's brother, Sovran and Lord of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; all, many-named Son of Kronos, with the abetting of Zeus, bore her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; away on his immortal steeds.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; [John Edgar, 1891](https://archive.org/stream/homerichymns00edgaiala#page/84/mode/2up)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;So he, that Son of Cronos, of many names, who is Ruler of Many and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Host of Many, was bearing her away by leave of Zeus on his immortal&#xD;&#xA;&gt; chariot—his own brother's child and all unwilling.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; Hugh Gerard Evelyn-White, 1914&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;So although she resisted,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Ruler of Many and Receiver of Many  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; drover her away on his immortal horses   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; his own brother's child  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; —for Zeus had contrived it—   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; the son of Kronos with many names.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; [Jules Cashford, 2003](https://books.google.com/books?id=YQVdvH_z74oC&amp;pg=PT39)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;By Zeus's counsels, his brother, the All-receiver   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; and Ruler of Many, Kronos's son of many names,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; was carrying her away with his immortal horses, against her will.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; Apostolos N. Athanassakis, 2004&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;But her father's brother, Kronos' son of many names,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lord of the Many Dead, stole the unwilling girl   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; away on his immortal horses, with a nod from Zeus.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; [Diane J. Rayor, 2004](https://books.google.com/books?id=PDtJ-2-e-esC&amp;pg=PA18)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is what is being translated above, from Evelyn-White's edition of the Greek text:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *τὴν δ᾽ ἀεκαζομένην ἦγεν Διὸς ἐννεσίῃσι   &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; πατροκασίγνητος, Πολυσημάντωρ Πολυδέγμων,   &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; ἵπποις ἀθανάτοισι, Κρόνου πολυώνυμος υἱός.*  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is a transliteration of it into Roman script:    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *`tên d' aekazomenên êgen Dios ennesiêisi`*    &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *`patrokasignêtos Polysêmantôr Polydegmôn`*    &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *`hippois athanatoisi Kronou polyônymos huios`*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The word ἐννεσίῃσι (*ennesiêisi*), which Nagy renders as &quot;at the behest&quot;, also appears in Hesiod's *Theogony* 492, where Evelyn-White translates it as &quot;suggestions&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Evelyn-White's and Raynor's renditions of the same word in the Hymn imply *permission granted*, where, respectively they have: &quot;by leave [of]&quot; and &quot;with a nod [from]&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Edgar's version &quot;with the abetting&quot; makes it more conspiratorial between Zeus and Hades. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Athanassakis's &quot;By Zeus's counsels&quot; denotes *advice* or *a strong suggestion* to the prospective bridegroom. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cashford straight-up makes Zeus the mastermind of the scheme, &quot;For Zeus had contrived it&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Evelyn-White also uses the clause &quot;the behest of Zeus&quot; in his translation of the Hymn, although this is in Line 359, where the messenger-god Hermes has been sent to Hades with the command that Persephone, whose mother has been inconsolably searching after her, should be restored to Demeter in the upper world. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Aidoneus, ruler over the dead, smiled grimly and obeyed the behest&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Zeus the king.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;The behest of Zeus the king&quot; is from  Διὸς βασιλῆος ἐφετμῇς (*Dios basilêos ephetmês*).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Theogony*&#xD;&#xA;------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod's *Theogony*, from perhaps a century or two earlier than the Homeric Hymns, in Lines 912-914 of Evelyn-White's 1920 translation (and the corresponding Greek text), while listing the wives of Zeus, says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Also he came to the bed of all-nourishing Demeter, and she bare&#xD;&#xA;&gt; white-armed Persephone whom Aïdoneus carried off from her mother; but&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wise Zeus gave her to him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *αὐτὰρ ὁ Δήμητρος πολυφόρβης ἐς λέχος ἦλθεν,  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; ἣ τέκε Περσεφόνην λευκώλενον, ἣν Ἀιδωνεὺς  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; ἥρπασεν ἧς παρὰ μητρός: ἔδωκε δὲ μητίετα Ζεύς.*   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *`autar ho Dêmêtros polyphorbês es lekhos êlthen:`*    &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *`hê teke Persephonên leukôlenon, hên Aïdôneus`*  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *`hêrpasen hês para mêtros, edôke de mêtieta Zeus.`*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Daryl Hine's translation (2005):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Next Zeus went to the bed of Demeter who nourishes many,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Who gave birth to Persephone who had white arms and whom Hades   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Snatched from her mother; but Zeus in his wisdom gave her to Hades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Library&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Written about half a millennium after the Homeric Hymns, (Pseudo-)Apollodorus' Βιβλιοθήκη (*Bibliothêke*), the &quot;Library,&quot; refers to Hades by his epithet Πλούτων (*Ploutôn*), the &quot;Wealthy&quot; One. The sobriquet was eventually applied by the Romans to their version of this deity, whom they called Pluto. Most of the following translations of Βιβλιοθήκη 1.5.1 use this *Latinised* spelling of the name. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pluto fell in love with Persephone and with the help of Zeus carried&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her off secretly.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sub&gt;[James George Frazer, 1921](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus1.html#5)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pluto fell in love with Persephone, and with Zeus' help secretly&#xD;&#xA;&gt; kidnaped* her.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sub&gt;Keith Aldrich, 1975&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sub&gt;*Apparently a viable U.S. spelling of *kidnap[**p**]ed*(!), which I had never encountered before this. (*Eep!*)&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pluto fell in love with Persephone and, with the help of Zeus, he secretly&#xD;&#xA;&gt; abducted her...  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sub&gt;[Robin Hard, 1997](https://books.google.com/books?id=gZ6uuHEBE2wC&amp;pg=PA33)&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Plouton fell in love with Persephone and secretly kidnapped her with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zeus' help.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sub&gt;R. Scott Smith &amp; Stephen M. Trzaskoma, 2007&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sup&gt;From Frazer's edition of the Greek text:&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *Πλούτων δὲ Περσεφόνης ἐρασθεὶς Διὸς συνεργοῦντος ἥρπασεν αὐτὴν κρύφα.*  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *`Ploutôn de Persephones erastheis Dios synergountos hêrpasen autên krypha.`* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Fabulae*&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With Hyginus writing in Latin, his *Fabulae*, naturally, contains the Roman names of the characters, so that Zeus is Jove or Jupiter, Demeter is Ceres, and Persephone is Proserpina. *Fabulae* 146 has the word *Tartarus* as a generic term for the entire Underworld, such as it came to be typically identified in Latin literature especially later into the Christian era. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Mary Grant's 1960 translation of the passage:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pluto asked from Jove that he give him in marriage Ceres' daughter and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his own. Jove said that Ceres would not permit her daughter to live in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gloomy Tartarus, but bade him seize her as she was gathering flowers&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on Mount Etna, which is in Sicily.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;R. Scott Smith &amp; Stephen M. Trzaskoma's 2007 translation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pluto asked Jupiter if he could marry Proserpina, his daughter by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ceres. Jupiter said that Ceres would never allow her daughter to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reside in the darkness of Tartarus; he told him, however, to abduct&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her while she was picking flowers on Mount Aetna, which is in Sicily.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Ludwig Maximilian University’s 1872 edition of the Latin text, involving Moritz Schmidt:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Pluton petit ab love Proserpinam filiam eius et Cereris in coniugium [daret]. lovis negavit Cererem passuram ut filia sua in tartaro&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tenebricoso sit, sed iubet eum rapere eam flores legentem in monte&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aetna, qui est in Sicilia.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In summary, Zeus (Jupiter) does not arbitrarily command Hades (Pluto) to kidnap Persephone (Proserpina). Hades asks for her first and then Zeus advises on the means of achieving this goal. Thus what is being performed *at the behest of Zeus* is this scheme that he has set in motion, and which, according to Line 9 of the Hymn to Demeter, is in place for the purpose of pleasing Hades.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*De Raptu Proserpinae*&#xD;&#xA;--------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is one more Roman source which is relevant to your Question, namely *De Raptu Proserpinae*, &quot;Rape of Proserpina,&quot; by a poet of the 300s AD named Claudian. In it, Pluto does not ask Jupiter specifically for Proserpina, although he does demand a wife, threatening war between his realm and Heaven if his brother does not comply. Frighteningly so, Claudian's Pluto is genuinely powerful enough to issue such a demand to the king of the gods.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By the way, the communication between the brothers does not require the presence of the Underworld-King on Mt Olympus. Just as Zeus sends Hermes to Aïdoneus in the Homeric Hymn to Demeter, similarly in *De Raptu Proserpinae*, Pluto sends Mercurius (the Roman Hermes) with his threatening demand to Jupiter, telling him, according to [Maurice Platnauer's 1922 translation](https://archive.org/stream/claudian00unkngoog#page/n310/mode/2up), to:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bear these my behests to proud Jove (1.92-93).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *proscinde Notos et iussa superbo redde Iovi.*&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Other translations:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Fly hence, with speedy wing cut through the winde,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; To thy vngratefull Sire thus speake our minde...  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; [Leonard Digges, 1617](https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A18949.0001.001/1:5.1?rgn=div2;view=fulltext)&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;&quot;Bear to the haughty ruler of the skies,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;And swiftly speed thy flight, these my resolves—  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; [Jacob George Strutt, 1814](https://archive.org/stream/rapeproserpinew00claugoog#page/n32/mode/2up)&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The dialogue delivered to Mercurius thereafter takes up a chunky paragraph in which Pluto, interestingly, never actually comes out and says that he wants Jupiter to give him a bride, rather he angrily complains that while his brothers are married and that Jupiter in particular has many happy children surrounding him, he himself has no one to keep him warm in the gloom of the nether world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He paints an especially grim and miserable picture of his kingdom, which he thinks is &quot;hideous&quot;, and now that Pluto has been allocated that portion of the cosmos, he asks, in Platnauer's words (1.103):  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; must thou also forbid our marriage?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *sed thalamis etiam prohibes?*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For this, Digges has &quot;Forbidd'st me Nuptiall rites&quot;, while Strutt makes it: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Dost thou prohibit, too, joys that attend  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;On wedded hours?    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That phrase is the closest that he comes to articulating what he wants, amid the complaints and threats. So far in the text, there isn't much intelligible context for this statement: Pluto does not appear to be speaking about marriage to a specific person, nor have we been told of an episode in which Jupiter has prevented him from getting married. The problem seems to be, as Jupiter fears upon receiving the message, &quot;who would dare such a marriage, who would wish to exchange the sun for the caves of Styx&quot;? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond that, Pluto might perhaps be addressing Jupiter as the head of the family, who in Roman culture (as in various other traditions around the world) is responsible for even his grownup siblings who share his estate (the family estate in this case being the entire universe). Perhaps Pluto is to be understood as expecting a marriage to be arranged by his brother who is higher than him (in both status and elevation).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only portion of the poem which can be construed as Jupiter giving Pluto a command is a couple of lines (1.278-279) in which Jove refers to the scheme he has set up requiring the god of the dead to be ready to seize Proserpina while she is out &quot;sporting in the level meadows by the first light of rosy dawn tomorrow&quot; (*my own gloss of Platnauer's translation of 1.221-222*). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Platnauer's version of the aforementioned 1.278-279: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pluto, warned by his brother, made his way to the upper air.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *iamque viam Pluto superas molitur ad auras germani monitu.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Digges' version, written in the time of William Shakespeare and King James, is currently rather gnarly English, where the letters `j` and `i` are interchangeable, as are &quot;u&quot; and &quot;v&quot;:&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whil'st Pluto warn'd by *Ioue*  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; His iourney plot's&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Strutt's version:       &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And now prepared to seek the upper skies,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Warn'd by the voice of Jove, Pluto arose&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; **References**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Aldrich, K.M. 1975. *The Library of Greek Mythology, by Apollodorus*. Coronado Press&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Athanassakis, A.N. 2004. *The Homeric Hymns*, Second Edition. The John Hopkins University Press, Baltimore, MA&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Cashford, J. 2003. *The Homeric Hymns*. Penguin, London&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Digges, L. 1617. *The Rape of Proserpine, Translated out of Claudian in Latine, into English Verse*. Edward Blount, England&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Edgar, J. 1891. *The Homeric Hymns* Translated into English&#xD;&#xA;   Prose. James Thin, Edinburgh&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Frazer, J.G. 1921. *Apollodorus: The Library, with an English Translation*, in Two Volumes. William Heinemann, London, &amp; G.P. Putnam's Sons, New York&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Evelyn-White, H.G. 1914. *Hesiod, the Homeric Hymns and&#xD;&#xA;   Homerica*. Loeb Classical Library (Book 57)&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Hard, R. 1997. *Apollodorus: The Library of Greek Mythology*. Oxford University Press, Inc. New York&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Nagy, G. 2016, *Homeric Hymn to Demeter*, Center for Hellenic&#xD;&#xA;   Studies, Harvard University, Washington, DC,   &#xD;&#xA;viewed 4 April 2018, https://chs.harvard.edu/CHS/article/display/5292&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Platnauer, M. 1922. *Claudian, in Two Volumes. William Heinemann, London, &amp; G.P. Putnam's Sons, New York&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Rayor, D.J. 2004. *The Homeric Hymns: A Translation, with Introduction and Notes*. University of California Press, Berkeley &amp; Los Angeles, CA; &amp; University of California Press, Ltd., London, England&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Strutt, J.G. 1814. *The Rape of Proserpine: With Other Poems, from Claudian; Translated into English Verse, with a Prefatory Discourse, and Occasional Notes*. A.J. Valpy; &amp; Messrs. Longman, Hurst, Rees, Orme, &amp; Brown; &amp; Josiah Conder, London&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/cOed0.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15890" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4783" RevisionGUID="11c8fd43-f0cd-4a5d-a115-8cf9345f3450" CreationDate="2018-04-23T05:43:44.003" UserId="2682" Comment="deleted 4 characters in body" Text="[![Athanassakis Homeric Hymn to Demeter 1-3][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sub&gt;*`Homeric Hymn to Demeter 1-3 (A.N. Athanassakis translation)`*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;No Ancient Greek source that I have come across explicitly mentions Hades asking for Persephone. In one way or another they all say simply that Zeus gave Persephone to his brother, and that the giveaway method was the fairly common worldwide practice of bride-kidnapping, which in some instances would happen with the consent of the bride's father, often with the mother having no say in the matter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The wording of that sentence in the Wikipedia article is the source of the confusion here, as it could be read to mean that out of the blue (as it were), Zeus accosted Hades and issued him this directive of &quot;obtaining&quot; Persephone. But that's not how the story really goes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is indeed a perspicuous ancient report of Hades following the expected custom of asking for his prospective bride's hand in marriage from her father. The source of the quote, however, is Roman, from Hyginus' *Fabulae*, regarding which see below.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Homeric Hymn to Demeter&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Your Wikipedia reference appears to have come out of [**the translation by Gregory Nagy**](https://chs.harvard.edu/CHS/article/display/5292), from Harvard University's Center for Hellenic Studies, of the Homeric Hymn to Demeter (written c. the 500s BC), the relevant portion thereof being when Hades nabs Persephone in Lines 30-32:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **She was being taken, against her will, at the behest of Zeus**,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; by her father's brother, the one who makes many *sēmata*, the one who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; receives many guests,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; the son of Kronos, the one with many names. On the chariot drawn by immortal horses.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sub&gt;(*Emphasis mine*)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some other translations render it as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Unwilling was Persephone, but her father's brother, Sovran and Lord of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; all, many-named Son of Kronos, with the abetting of Zeus, bore her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; away on his immortal steeds.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; [John Edgar, 1891](https://archive.org/stream/homerichymns00edgaiala#page/84/mode/2up)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;So he, that Son of Cronos, of many names, who is Ruler of Many and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Host of Many, was bearing her away by leave of Zeus on his immortal&#xD;&#xA;&gt; chariot—his own brother's child and all unwilling.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; Hugh Gerard Evelyn-White, 1914&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;So although she resisted,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Ruler of Many and Receiver of Many  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; drover her away on his immortal horses   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; his own brother's child  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; —for Zeus had contrived it—   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; the son of Kronos with many names.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; [Jules Cashford, 2003](https://books.google.com/books?id=YQVdvH_z74oC&amp;pg=PT39)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;By Zeus's counsels, his brother, the All-receiver   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; and Ruler of Many, Kronos's son of many names,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; was carrying her away with his immortal horses, against her will.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; Apostolos N. Athanassakis, 2004&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;But her father's brother, Kronos' son of many names,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lord of the Many Dead, stole the unwilling girl   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; away on his immortal horses, with a nod from Zeus.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; [Diane J. Rayor, 2004](https://books.google.com/books?id=PDtJ-2-e-esC&amp;pg=PA18)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is what is being translated above, from Evelyn-White's edition of the Greek text:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *τὴν δ᾽ ἀεκαζομένην ἦγεν Διὸς ἐννεσίῃσι   &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; πατροκασίγνητος, Πολυσημάντωρ Πολυδέγμων,   &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; ἵπποις ἀθανάτοισι, Κρόνου πολυώνυμος υἱός.*  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is a transliteration of it into Roman script:    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *`tên d' aekazomenên êgen Dios ennesiêisi`*    &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *`patrokasignêtos Polysêmantôr Polydegmôn`*    &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *`hippois athanatoisi Kronou polyônymos huios`*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The word ἐννεσίῃσι (*ennesiêisi*), which Nagy renders as &quot;at the behest&quot;, also appears in Hesiod's *Theogony* 492, where Evelyn-White translates it as &quot;suggestions&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Evelyn-White's and Raynor's renditions of the same word in the Hymn imply *permission granted*, where, respectively they have: &quot;by leave [of]&quot; and &quot;with a nod [from]&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Edgar's version &quot;with the abetting&quot; makes it more conspiratorial between Zeus and Hades. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Athanassakis's &quot;By Zeus's counsels&quot; denotes *advice* or *a strong suggestion* to the prospective bridegroom. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cashford straight-up makes Zeus the mastermind of the scheme, &quot;For Zeus had contrived it&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Evelyn-White also uses the clause &quot;the behest of Zeus&quot; in his translation of the Hymn, although this is in Line 359, where the messenger-god Hermes has been sent to Hades with the command that Persephone, whose mother has been inconsolably searching after her, should be restored to Demeter in the upper world. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Aidoneus, ruler over the dead, smiled grimly and obeyed the behest&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Zeus the king.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;The behest of Zeus the king&quot; is from  Διὸς βασιλῆος ἐφετμῇς (*Dios basilêos ephetmês*).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Theogony*&#xD;&#xA;------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod's *Theogony*, from perhaps a century or two earlier than the Homeric Hymns, in Lines 912-914 of Evelyn-White's 1920 translation (and the corresponding Greek text), while listing the wives of Zeus, says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Also he came to the bed of all-nourishing Demeter, and she bare&#xD;&#xA;&gt; white-armed Persephone whom Aïdoneus carried off from her mother; but&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wise Zeus gave her to him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *αὐτὰρ ὁ Δήμητρος πολυφόρβης ἐς λέχος ἦλθεν,  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; ἣ τέκε Περσεφόνην λευκώλενον, ἣν Ἀιδωνεὺς  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; ἥρπασεν ἧς παρὰ μητρός: ἔδωκε δὲ μητίετα Ζεύς.*   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *`autar ho Dêmêtros polyphorbês es lekhos êlthen:`*    &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *`hê teke Persephonên leukôlenon, hên Aïdôneus`*  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *`hêrpasen hês para mêtros, edôke de mêtieta Zeus.`*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Daryl Hine's translation (2005):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Next Zeus went to the bed of Demeter who nourishes many,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Who gave birth to Persephone who had white arms and whom Hades   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Snatched from her mother; but Zeus in his wisdom gave her to Hades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Library&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Written about half a millennium after the Homeric Hymns, (Pseudo-)Apollodorus' Βιβλιοθήκη (*Bibliothêke*), the &quot;Library,&quot; refers to Hades by his epithet Πλούτων (*Ploutôn*), the &quot;Wealthy&quot; One. The sobriquet was eventually applied by the Romans to their version of this deity, whom they called Pluto. Most of the following translations of Βιβλιοθήκη 1.5.1 use this *Latinised* spelling of the name. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pluto fell in love with Persephone and with the help of Zeus carried&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her off secretly.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sub&gt;[James George Frazer, 1921](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus1.html#5)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pluto fell in love with Persephone, and with Zeus' help secretly&#xD;&#xA;&gt; kidnaped* her.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sub&gt;Keith Aldrich, 1975&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sub&gt;*Apparently a viable U.S. spelling of *kidnap[**p**]ed*(!), which I had never encountered before this. (*Eep!*)&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pluto fell in love with Persephone and, with the help of Zeus, he secretly&#xD;&#xA;&gt; abducted her...  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sub&gt;[Robin Hard, 1997](https://books.google.com/books?id=gZ6uuHEBE2wC&amp;pg=PA33)&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Plouton fell in love with Persephone and secretly kidnapped her with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zeus' help.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sub&gt;R. Scott Smith &amp; Stephen M. Trzaskoma, 2007&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sup&gt;From Frazer's edition of the Greek text:&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *Πλούτων δὲ Περσεφόνης ἐρασθεὶς Διὸς συνεργοῦντος ἥρπασεν αὐτὴν κρύφα.*  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *`Ploutôn de Persephones erastheis Dios synergountos hêrpasen autên krypha.`* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Fabulae*&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With Hyginus writing in Latin, his *Fabulae*, naturally, contains the Roman names of the characters, so that Zeus is Jove or Jupiter, Demeter is Ceres, and Persephone is Proserpina. *Fabulae* 146 has the word *Tartarus* as a generic term for the entire Underworld, such as it came to be typically identified in Latin literature especially later into the Christian era. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Mary Grant's 1960 translation of the passage:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pluto asked from Jove that he give him in marriage Ceres' daughter and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his own. Jove said that Ceres would not permit her daughter to live in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gloomy Tartarus, but bade him seize her as she was gathering flowers&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on Mount Etna, which is in Sicily.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;R. Scott Smith &amp; Stephen M. Trzaskoma's 2007 translation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pluto asked Jupiter if he could marry Proserpina, his daughter by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ceres. Jupiter said that Ceres would never allow her daughter to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reside in the darkness of Tartarus; he told him, however, to abduct&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her while she was picking flowers on Mount Aetna, which is in Sicily.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Ludwig Maximilian University’s 1872 edition of the Latin text, involving Moritz Schmidt:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Pluton petit ab love Proserpinam filiam eius et Cereris in coniugium [daret]. lovis negavit Cererem passuram ut filia sua in tartaro&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tenebricoso sit, sed iubet eum rapere eam flores legentem in monte&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aetna, qui est in Sicilia.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In summary, Zeus (Jupiter) does not arbitrarily command Hades (Pluto) to kidnap Persephone (Proserpina). Hades asks for her first and then Zeus advises on the means of achieving this goal. Thus what is being performed *at the behest of Zeus* is this scheme that he has set in motion, and which, according to Line 9 of the Hymn to Demeter, is in place for the purpose of pleasing Hades.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*De Raptu Proserpinae*&#xD;&#xA;--------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is one more Roman source which is relevant to your Question, namely *De Raptu Proserpinae*, &quot;Rape of Proserpina,&quot; by a poet of the 300s AD named Claudian. In it, Pluto does not ask Jupiter specifically for Proserpina, although he does demand a wife, threatening war between his realm and Heaven if his brother does not comply. Frighteningly so, Claudian's Pluto is genuinely powerful enough to issue such a demand to the king of the gods.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By the way, the communication between the brothers does not require the presence of the Underworld-King on Mt Olympus. Just as Zeus sends Hermes to Aïdoneus in the Homeric Hymn to Demeter, similarly in *De Raptu Proserpinae*, Pluto sends Mercurius (the Roman Hermes) with his threatening demand to Jupiter, telling him, according to [Maurice Platnauer's 1922 translation](https://archive.org/stream/claudian00unkngoog#page/n310/mode/2up), to:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bear these my behests to proud Jove (1.92-93).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *proscinde Notos et iussa superbo redde Iovi.*&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Other translations:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Fly hence, with speedy wing cut through the winde,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; To thy vngratefull Sire thus speake our minde...  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; [Leonard Digges, 1617](https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A18949.0001.001/1:5.1?rgn=div2;view=fulltext)&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;&quot;Bear to the haughty ruler of the skies,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;And swiftly speed thy flight, these my resolves—  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; [Jacob George Strutt, 1814](https://archive.org/stream/rapeproserpinew00claugoog#page/n32/mode/2up)&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The dialogue delivered to Mercurius thereafter takes up a chunky paragraph in which Pluto, interestingly, never actually comes out and says that he wants Jupiter to give him a bride, rather he angrily complains that while his brothers are married and that Jupiter in particular has many happy children surrounding him, he himself has no one to keep him warm in the gloom of the nether world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He paints an especially grim and miserable picture of his kingdom, which he thinks is &quot;hideous&quot;, and now that Pluto has been allocated that portion of the cosmos, he asks, in Platnauer's words (1.103):  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; must thou also forbid our marriage?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *sed thalamis etiam prohibes?*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For this, Digges has &quot;Forbidd'st me Nuptiall rites&quot;, while Strutt makes it: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Dost thou prohibit, too, joys that attend  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;On wedded hours?    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That phrase is the closest that he comes to articulating what he wants, amid the complaints and threats. So far in the text, there isn't much intelligible context for this statement: Pluto does not appear to be speaking about marriage to a specific person, nor have we been told of an episode in which Jupiter has prevented him from getting married. The problem seems to be, as Jupiter fears upon receiving the message, &quot;who would dare such a marriage, who would wish to exchange the sun for the caves of Styx&quot;? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond that, Pluto might perhaps be addressing Jupiter as the head of the family, who in Roman culture (as in various other traditions around the world) is responsible for even his grownup siblings who share his estate (the family estate in this case being the entire universe). Perhaps Pluto is to be understood as expecting a marriage to be arranged by his brother who is higher than him (in both status and elevation).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only portion of the poem which can be construed as Jupiter giving Pluto a command is a couple of lines (1.278-279) in which Jove refers to the scheme he has set up requiring the god of the dead to be ready to seize Proserpina while she is out &quot;sporting in the level meadows by the first light of rosy dawn tomorrow&quot; (*my own gloss of Platnauer's translation of 1.221-222*). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Platnauer's version of the aforementioned 1.278-279: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pluto, warned by his brother, made his way to the upper air.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *iamque viam Pluto superas molitur ad auras germani monitu.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Digges' version, written in the time of William Shakespeare and King James, is currently rather gnarly English, where the letters `j` and `i` are interchangeable, as are &quot;u&quot; and &quot;v&quot;:&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whil'st Pluto warn'd by *Ioue*  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; His iourney plot's&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Strutt's version:       &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And now prepared to seek the upper skies,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Warn'd by the voice of Jove, Pluto arose&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; **References**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Aldrich, K.M. 1975. *The Library of Greek Mythology, by Apollodorus*. Coronado Press&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Athanassakis, A.N. 2004. *The Homeric Hymns*, Second Edition. The John Hopkins University Press, Baltimore, MA&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Cashford, J. 2003. *The Homeric Hymns*. Penguin, London&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Digges, L. 1617. *The Rape of Proserpine, Translated out of Claudian in Latine, into English Verse*. Edward Blount, England&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Edgar, J. 1891. *The Homeric Hymns* Translated into English&#xD;&#xA;   Prose. James Thin, Edinburgh&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Frazer, J.G. 1921. *Apollodorus: The Library, with an English Translation*, in Two Volumes. William Heinemann, London, &amp; G.P. Putnam's Sons, New York&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Evelyn-White, H.G. 1914. *Hesiod, the Homeric Hymns and&#xD;&#xA;   Homerica*. Loeb Classical Library (Book 57)&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Hard, R. 1997. *Apollodorus: The Library of Greek Mythology*. Oxford University Press, Inc. New York&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Nagy, G. 2016, *Homeric Hymn to Demeter*, Center for Hellenic&#xD;&#xA;   Studies, Harvard University, Washington, DC, viewed 4 April 2018, https://chs.harvard.edu/CHS/article/display/5292&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Platnauer, M. 1922. *Claudian, in Two Volumes. William Heinemann, London, &amp; G.P. Putnam's Sons, New York&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Rayor, D.J. 2004. *The Homeric Hymns: A Translation, with Introduction and Notes*. University of California Press, Berkeley &amp; Los Angeles, CA; &amp; University of California Press, Ltd., London, England&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Strutt, J.G. 1814. *The Rape of Proserpine: With Other Poems, from Claudian; Translated into English Verse, with a Prefatory Discourse, and Occasional Notes*. A.J. Valpy; &amp; Messrs. Longman, Hurst, Rees, Orme, &amp; Brown; &amp; Josiah Conder, London&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/cOed0.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15891" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4783" RevisionGUID="3b69d17a-d54c-4941-9ec1-3f79a0fd691c" CreationDate="2018-04-23T05:50:56.327" UserId="2682" Comment="added 200 characters in body" Text="[![Athanassakis Homeric Hymn to Demeter 1-3][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sub&gt;*`Homeric Hymn to Demeter 1-3 (A.N. Athanassakis translation)`*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;No Ancient Greek source that I have come across explicitly mentions Hades asking for Persephone. In one way or another they all say simply that Zeus gave Persephone to his brother, and that the giveaway method was the fairly common worldwide practice of bride-kidnapping, which in some instances would happen with the consent of the bride's father, often with the mother having no say in the matter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The wording of that sentence in the Wikipedia article is the source of the confusion here, as it could be read to mean that out of the blue (as it were), Zeus accosted Hades and issued him this directive of &quot;obtaining&quot; Persephone. But that's not how the story really goes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is indeed a perspicuous ancient report of Hades following the expected custom of asking for his prospective bride's hand in marriage from her father. The source of the quote, however, is Roman, from Hyginus' *Fabulae*, regarding which see below.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Homeric Hymn to Demeter&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Your Wikipedia reference appears to have come out of [**the translation by Gregory Nagy**](https://chs.harvard.edu/CHS/article/display/5292), from Harvard University's Center for Hellenic Studies, of the Homeric Hymn to Demeter (written c. the 500s BC), the relevant portion thereof being when Hades nabs Persephone in Lines 30-32:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **She was being taken, against her will, at the behest of Zeus**,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; by her father's brother, the one who makes many *sēmata*, the one who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; receives many guests,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; the son of Kronos, the one with many names. On the chariot drawn by immortal horses.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sub&gt;(*Emphasis mine*)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some other translations render it as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Unwilling was Persephone, but her father's brother, Sovran and Lord of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; all, many-named Son of Kronos, with the abetting of Zeus, bore her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; away on his immortal steeds.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; [John Edgar, 1891](https://archive.org/stream/homerichymns00edgaiala#page/84/mode/2up)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;So he, that Son of Cronos, of many names, who is Ruler of Many and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Host of Many, was bearing her away by leave of Zeus on his immortal&#xD;&#xA;&gt; chariot—his own brother's child and all unwilling.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; Hugh Gerard Evelyn-White, 1914&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;So although she resisted,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Ruler of Many and Receiver of Many  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; drover her away on his immortal horses   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; his own brother's child  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; —for Zeus had contrived it—   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; the son of Kronos with many names.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; [Jules Cashford, 2003](https://books.google.com/books?id=YQVdvH_z74oC&amp;pg=PT39)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;By Zeus's counsels, his brother, the All-receiver   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; and Ruler of Many, Kronos's son of many names,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; was carrying her away with his immortal horses, against her will.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; Apostolos N. Athanassakis, 2004&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;But her father's brother, Kronos' son of many names,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lord of the Many Dead, stole the unwilling girl   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; away on his immortal horses, with a nod from Zeus.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; [Diane J. Rayor, 2004](https://books.google.com/books?id=PDtJ-2-e-esC&amp;pg=PA18)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is what is being translated above, from Evelyn-White's edition of the Greek text:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *τὴν δ᾽ ἀεκαζομένην ἦγεν Διὸς ἐννεσίῃσι   &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; πατροκασίγνητος, Πολυσημάντωρ Πολυδέγμων,   &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; ἵπποις ἀθανάτοισι, Κρόνου πολυώνυμος υἱός.*  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is a transliteration of it into Roman script:    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *`tên d' aekazomenên êgen Dios ennesiêisi`*    &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *`patrokasignêtos Polysêmantôr Polydegmôn`*    &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *`hippois athanatoisi Kronou polyônymos huios`*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The word ἐννεσίῃσι (*ennesiêisi*), which Nagy renders as &quot;at the behest&quot;, also appears in Hesiod's *Theogony* 492, where Evelyn-White translates it as &quot;suggestions&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Evelyn-White's and Raynor's renditions of the same word in the Hymn imply *permission granted*, where, respectively they have: &quot;by leave [of]&quot; and &quot;with a nod [from]&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Edgar's version &quot;with the abetting&quot; makes it more conspiratorial between Zeus and Hades. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Athanassakis's &quot;By Zeus's counsels&quot; denotes *advice* or *a strong suggestion* to the prospective bridegroom. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cashford straight-up makes Zeus the mastermind of the scheme, &quot;For Zeus had contrived it&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Evelyn-White also uses the clause &quot;the behest of Zeus&quot; in his translation of the Hymn, although this is in Line 359, where the messenger-god Hermes has been sent to Hades with the command that Persephone, whose mother has been inconsolably searching after her, should be restored to Demeter in the upper world. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Aidoneus, ruler over the dead, smiled grimly and obeyed the behest&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Zeus the king.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;The behest of Zeus the king&quot; is from  Διὸς βασιλῆος ἐφετμῇς (*Dios basilêos ephetmês*).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Theogony*&#xD;&#xA;------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod's *Theogony*, from perhaps a century or two earlier than the Homeric Hymns, in Lines 912-914 of Evelyn-White's 1920 translation (and the corresponding Greek text), while listing the wives of Zeus, says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Also he came to the bed of all-nourishing Demeter, and she bare&#xD;&#xA;&gt; white-armed Persephone whom Aïdoneus carried off from her mother; but&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wise Zeus gave her to him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *αὐτὰρ ὁ Δήμητρος πολυφόρβης ἐς λέχος ἦλθεν,  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; ἣ τέκε Περσεφόνην λευκώλενον, ἣν Ἀιδωνεὺς  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; ἥρπασεν ἧς παρὰ μητρός: ἔδωκε δὲ μητίετα Ζεύς.*   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *`autar ho Dêmêtros polyphorbês es lekhos êlthen:`*    &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *`hê teke Persephonên leukôlenon, hên Aïdôneus`*  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *`hêrpasen hês para mêtros, edôke de mêtieta Zeus.`*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Daryl Hine's translation (2005):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Next Zeus went to the bed of Demeter who nourishes many,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Who gave birth to Persephone who had white arms and whom Hades   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Snatched from her mother; but Zeus in his wisdom gave her to Hades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Library&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Written about half a millennium after the Homeric Hymns, (Pseudo-)Apollodorus' Βιβλιοθήκη (*Bibliothêke*), the &quot;Library,&quot; refers to Hades by his epithet Πλούτων (*Ploutôn*), the &quot;Wealthy&quot; One. The sobriquet was eventually applied by the Romans to their version of this deity, whom they called Pluto. Most of the following translations of Βιβλιοθήκη 1.5.1 use this *Latinised* spelling of the name. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pluto fell in love with Persephone and with the help of Zeus carried&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her off secretly.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sub&gt;[James George Frazer, 1921](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus1.html#5)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pluto fell in love with Persephone, and with Zeus' help secretly&#xD;&#xA;&gt; kidnaped* her.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sub&gt;Keith Aldrich, 1975&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sub&gt;*Apparently a viable U.S. spelling of *kidnap[**p**]ed*(!), which I had never encountered before this. (*Eep!*)&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pluto fell in love with Persephone and, with the help of Zeus, he secretly&#xD;&#xA;&gt; abducted her...  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sub&gt;[Robin Hard, 1997](https://books.google.com/books?id=gZ6uuHEBE2wC&amp;pg=PA33)&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Plouton fell in love with Persephone and secretly kidnapped her with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zeus' help.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sub&gt;R. Scott Smith &amp; Stephen M. Trzaskoma, 2007&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sup&gt;From Frazer's edition of the Greek text:&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *Πλούτων δὲ Περσεφόνης ἐρασθεὶς Διὸς συνεργοῦντος ἥρπασεν αὐτὴν κρύφα.*  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *`Ploutôn de Persephones erastheis Dios synergountos hêrpasen autên krypha.`* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Fabulae*&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With Hyginus writing in Latin, his *Fabulae*, naturally, contains the Roman names of the characters, so that Zeus is Jove or Jupiter, Demeter is Ceres, and Persephone is Proserpina. *Fabulae* 146 has the word *Tartarus* as a generic term for the entire Underworld, such as it came to be typically identified in Latin literature especially later into the Christian era. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Mary Grant's 1960 translation of the passage:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pluto asked from Jove that he give him in marriage Ceres' daughter and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his own. Jove said that Ceres would not permit her daughter to live in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gloomy Tartarus, but bade him seize her as she was gathering flowers&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on Mount Etna, which is in Sicily.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;R. Scott Smith &amp; Stephen M. Trzaskoma's 2007 translation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pluto asked Jupiter if he could marry Proserpina, his daughter by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ceres. Jupiter said that Ceres would never allow her daughter to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reside in the darkness of Tartarus; he told him, however, to abduct&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her while she was picking flowers on Mount Aetna, which is in Sicily.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Ludwig Maximilian University’s 1872 edition of the Latin text, involving Moritz Schmidt:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Pluton petit ab love Proserpinam filiam eius et Cereris in coniugium [daret]. lovis negavit Cererem passuram ut filia sua in tartaro&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tenebricoso sit, sed iubet eum rapere eam flores legentem in monte&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aetna, qui est in Sicilia.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In summary, Zeus (Jupiter) does not arbitrarily command Hades (Pluto) to kidnap Persephone (Proserpina). Hades asks for her first and then Zeus advises on the means of achieving this goal. Thus what is being performed *at the behest of Zeus* is this scheme that he has set in motion, and which, according to Line 9 of the Hymn to Demeter, is in place for the purpose of pleasing Hades.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*De Raptu Proserpinae*&#xD;&#xA;--------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is one more Roman source which is relevant to your Question, namely *De Raptu Proserpinae*, &quot;Rape of Proserpina,&quot; by a poet of the 300s AD named Claudian. In it, Pluto does not ask Jupiter specifically for Proserpina, although he does demand a wife, threatening war between his realm and Heaven if his brother does not comply. Frighteningly so, Claudian's Pluto is genuinely powerful enough to issue such a demand to the king of the gods.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By the way, the communication between the brothers does not require the presence of the Underworld-King on Mt Olympus. Just as Zeus sends Hermes to Aïdoneus in the Homeric Hymn to Demeter, similarly in *De Raptu Proserpinae*, Pluto sends Mercurius (the Roman Hermes) with his threatening demand to Jupiter, telling him, according to [Maurice Platnauer's 1922 translation](https://archive.org/stream/claudian00unkngoog#page/n310/mode/2up), to:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bear these my behests to proud Jove (1.92-93).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *proscinde Notos et iussa superbo redde Iovi.*&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Other translations:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Fly hence, with speedy wing cut through the winde,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; To thy vngratefull Sire thus speake our minde...  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; [Leonard Digges, 1617](https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A18949.0001.001/1:5.1?rgn=div2;view=fulltext)&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;&quot;Bear to the haughty ruler of the skies,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;And swiftly speed thy flight, these my resolves—  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; [Jacob George Strutt, 1814](https://archive.org/stream/rapeproserpinew00claugoog#page/n32/mode/2up)&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The dialogue delivered to Mercurius thereafter takes up a chunky paragraph in which Pluto, interestingly, never actually comes out and says that he wants Jupiter to give him a bride, rather he angrily complains that while his brothers are married and that Jupiter in particular has many happy children surrounding him, he himself has no one to keep him warm in the gloom of the nether world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He paints an especially grim and miserable picture of his kingdom, which he thinks is &quot;hideous&quot;, and now that Pluto has been allocated that portion of the cosmos, he asks, in Platnauer's words (1.103):  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; must thou also forbid our marriage?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *sed thalamis etiam prohibes?*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For this, Digges has &quot;Forbidd'st me Nuptiall rites&quot;, while Strutt makes it: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Dost thou prohibit, too, joys that attend  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;On wedded hours?    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That phrase is the closest that he comes to articulating what he wants, amid the complaints and threats. So far in the text, there isn't much intelligible context for this statement: Pluto does not appear to be speaking about marriage to a specific person, nor have we been told of an episode in which Jupiter has prevented him from getting married. The problem seems to be, as Jupiter fears upon receiving the message, &quot;who would dare such a marriage, who would wish to exchange the sun for the caves of Styx&quot;? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond that, Pluto might perhaps be addressing Jupiter as the head of the family, who in Roman culture (as in various other traditions around the world) is responsible for even his grownup siblings who share his estate (the family estate in this case being the entire universe). Perhaps Pluto is to be understood as expecting a marriage to be arranged by his brother who is higher than him (in both status and elevation).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only portion of the poem which can be construed as Jupiter giving Pluto a command is a couple of lines (1.278-279) in which Jove refers to the scheme he has set up requiring the god of the dead to be ready to seize Proserpina while she is out &quot;sporting in the level meadows by the first light of rosy dawn tomorrow&quot; (*my own gloss of Platnauer's translation of 1.221-222*). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Platnauer's version of the aforementioned 1.278-279: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pluto, warned by his brother, made his way to the upper air.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *iamque viam Pluto superas molitur ad auras germani monitu.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Digges' version, written in the time of William Shakespeare and King James, is currently rather gnarly English, where the letters `j` and `i` are interchangeable, as are &quot;u&quot; and &quot;v&quot;:&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whil'st Pluto warn'd by *Ioue*  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; His iourney plot's&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Strutt's version:       &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And now prepared to seek the upper skies,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Warn'd by the voice of Jove, Pluto arose&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; **References**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Aldrich, K.M. 1975. *The Library of Greek Mythology, by Apollodorus*. Coronado Press&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Athanassakis, A.N. 2004. *The Homeric Hymns*, Second Edition. The John Hopkins University Press, Baltimore, MA&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Cashford, J. 2003. *The Homeric Hymns*. Penguin, London&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Digges, L. 1617. *The Rape of Proserpine, Translated out of Claudian in Latine, into English Verse*. Edward Blount, England&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Edgar, J. 1891. *The Homeric Hymns* Translated into English&#xD;&#xA;   Prose. James Thin, Edinburgh&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Frazer, J.G. 1921. *Apollodorus: The Library, with an English Translation*, in Two Volumes. William Heinemann, London, &amp; G.P. Putnam's Sons, New York&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Evelyn-White, H.G. 1914. *Hesiod, the Homeric Hymns and&#xD;&#xA;   Homerica*. Loeb Classical Library (Book 57)&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Hard, R. 1997. *Apollodorus: The Library of Greek Mythology*. Oxford University Press, Inc. New York&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Nagy, G. 2016, *Homeric Hymn to Demeter*, Center for Hellenic&#xD;&#xA;   Studies, Harvard University, Washington, DC, viewed 4 April 2018, https://chs.harvard.edu/CHS/article/display/5292&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Platnauer, M. 1922. *Claudian, in Two Volumes. William Heinemann, London, &amp; G.P. Putnam's Sons, New York&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Rayor, D.J. 2004. *The Homeric Hymns: A Translation, with Introduction and Notes*. University of California Press, Berkeley &amp; Los Angeles, CA; &amp; University of California Press, Ltd., London, England&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Smith, R.S. &amp; Trzaskoma, S.M. 2007. Apollodorus' *Library* and Hyginus' *Fabulae*: Two Handbooks of Greek Mythology, Translated. Hackett Publishing Company, Inc. Indianapolis/Cambridge&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Strutt, J.G. 1814. *The Rape of Proserpine: With Other Poems, from Claudian; Translated into English Verse, with a Prefatory Discourse, and Occasional Notes*. A.J. Valpy; &amp; Messrs. Longman, Hurst, Rees, Orme, &amp; Brown; &amp; Josiah Conder, London&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/cOed0.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15892" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="4761" RevisionGUID="ec15d5aa-4948-439a-a36c-1b6970ca4581" CreationDate="2018-04-23T07:03:17.867" UserId="108" Comment="66" />
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  <row Id="15895" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4784" RevisionGUID="4b648383-c904-47d3-941a-8a0b922cd145" CreationDate="2018-04-23T09:03:31.117" UserId="4992" Text="I'm looking for the name an ancient man who was subject to being served his own children in pieces and eating them unknowingly. He was invited for dinner by the king where this took place.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later, he had the chance to revenge himself, helping with a battle in which that king was killed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does anyone recall who might fit this description? This may have been an actual event but my memory fails me(probably in more ways than this), so I'm putting this into the myths section.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
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  <row Id="15897" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4784" RevisionGUID="4b648383-c904-47d3-941a-8a0b922cd145" CreationDate="2018-04-23T09:03:31.117" UserId="4992" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15898" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4784" RevisionGUID="fdb74d59-f7cf-4c1b-9f6f-e6ef7c4460e6" CreationDate="2018-04-23T09:12:14.330" UserId="4992" Comment="added 236 characters in body" Text="I'm looking for the name an ancient man who was subject to being served his own children in pieces and eating them unknowingly. He was invited for dinner by the king where this took place.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later, he had the chance to revenge himself, helping with a battle in which that king was killed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does anyone recall who might fit this description? This may have been an actual event but my memory fails me(probably in more ways than this), so I'm putting this into the myths section.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Update:** Tantalus may be a candidate for the &quot;king&quot; whereas Demeter for the victim but I am pretty sure in this case it was a father who ate his children and he was later shown the rest of their bodies cut into bieces in baskets." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15902" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4786" RevisionGUID="9af12b3f-990c-44aa-9191-5faadd362b09" CreationDate="2018-04-23T14:40:17.857" UserId="2807" Text="As I put in comment, this reminded me of Shakespeare's *Titus Andronicus* play.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [Wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus_Andronicus#Sources), under the Sources section, it cites Ovid's *Metamorphoses*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The primary source for the rape and mutilation of Lavinia, as well as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Titus' subsequent revenge, is Ovid's Metamorphoses (c.AD 8), which is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; featured in the play itself when Lavinia uses it to help explain to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Titus and Marcus what happened to her during the attack. In the sixth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; book of Metamorphoses, Ovid tells the story of the rape of Philomela,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; daughter of Pandion I, King of Athens. Despite ill omens, Philomela's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sister, Procne, marries Tereus of Thrace and has a son for him, Itys.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; After five years in Thrace, Procne yearns to see her sister again, so&#xD;&#xA;&gt; she persuades Tereus to travel to Athens and accompany Philomela back&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to Thrace. Tereus does so, but he soon begins to lust after Philomela.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When she refuses his advances, he drags her into a forest and rapes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her. He then cuts out her tongue to prevent her from telling anyone of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the incident and returns to Procne, telling her that Philomela is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dead. However, Philomela weaves a tapestry, in which she names Tereus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as her assailant, and has it sent to Procne. The sisters meet in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; forest and together plot their revenge. They kill Itys and cook his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; body in a pie, which Procne then serves to Tereus. During the meal,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Philomela reveals herself, showing Itys' head to Tereus and telling&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him what they have done.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the answer is [**Tereus of Thrace**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tereus), son of Ares.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From Wikipedia too:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tereus desired his wife's sister, Philomela. He forced himself upon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her, then cut her tongue out and held her captive so she could never&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tell anyone. He told his wife that her sister had died. Philomela wove&#xD;&#xA;&gt; letters in a tapestry depicting Tereus's crime and sent it secretly to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Procne. In revenge, Procne killed Itys and served his flesh in a meal&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to his father Tereus. When Tereus learned what she had done, he tried&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to kill the sisters but all three were changed by the Olympian Gods&#xD;&#xA;&gt; into birds: Tereus became a hoopoe; Procne became the nightingale&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whose song is a song of mourning for the loss of her child; Philomela&#xD;&#xA;&gt; became the swallow, which has no song.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And from [Theoi](http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/AresFavour.html):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; TEREUS. A king in Thrake (north of Greece) whose wife and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sister-in-law slew their infant son and fed him to the king. When he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; discovered their crime, they fled to escape, and sympathetic gods&#xD;&#xA;&gt; transformed them into birds - nightingale and swallow. However, Ares&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (most likely), sympathetic to his son, transformed the king into a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hawk, so that he could exact his vengeance for eternity on the two&#xD;&#xA;&gt; women." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15903" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4786" RevisionGUID="44fe86bd-7db0-427d-a8e6-abbf8e800a87" CreationDate="2018-04-23T14:46:57.513" UserId="2807" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="As I put in comment, this reminded me of Shakespeare's *Titus Andronicus* play.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [Wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus_Andronicus#Sources), under the Sources section, it cites Ovid's *Metamorphoses*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The primary source for the rape and mutilation of Lavinia, as well as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Titus' subsequent revenge, is Ovid's Metamorphoses (c.AD 8), which is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; featured in the play itself when Lavinia uses it to help explain to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Titus and Marcus what happened to her during the attack. In the sixth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; book of Metamorphoses, Ovid tells the story of the rape of Philomela,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; daughter of Pandion I, King of Athens. Despite ill omens, Philomela's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sister, Procne, marries Tereus of Thrace and has a son for him, Itys.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; After five years in Thrace, Procne yearns to see her sister again, so&#xD;&#xA;&gt; she persuades Tereus to travel to Athens and accompany Philomela back&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to Thrace. Tereus does so, but he soon begins to lust after Philomela.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When she refuses his advances, he drags her into a forest and rapes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her. He then cuts out her tongue to prevent her from telling anyone of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the incident and returns to Procne, telling her that Philomela is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dead. However, Philomela weaves a tapestry, in which she names Tereus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as her assailant, and has it sent to Procne. The sisters meet in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; forest and together plot their revenge. They kill Itys and cook his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; body in a pie, which Procne then serves to Tereus. During the meal,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Philomela reveals herself, showing Itys' head to Tereus and telling&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him what they have done.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the answer may be [**Tereus of Thrace**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tereus), son of Ares, except instead of a final battle you get birds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From Wikipedia too:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tereus desired his wife's sister, Philomela. He forced himself upon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her, then cut her tongue out and held her captive so she could never&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tell anyone. He told his wife that her sister had died. Philomela wove&#xD;&#xA;&gt; letters in a tapestry depicting Tereus's crime and sent it secretly to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Procne. In revenge, Procne killed Itys and served his flesh in a meal&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to his father Tereus. When Tereus learned what she had done, he tried&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to kill the sisters but all three were changed by the Olympian Gods&#xD;&#xA;&gt; into birds: Tereus became a hoopoe; Procne became the nightingale&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whose song is a song of mourning for the loss of her child; Philomela&#xD;&#xA;&gt; became the swallow, which has no song.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And from [Theoi](http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/AresFavour.html):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; TEREUS. A king in Thrake (north of Greece) whose wife and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sister-in-law slew their infant son and fed him to the king. When he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; discovered their crime, they fled to escape, and sympathetic gods&#xD;&#xA;&gt; transformed them into birds - nightingale and swallow. However, Ares&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (most likely), sympathetic to his son, transformed the king into a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hawk, so that he could exact his vengeance for eternity on the two&#xD;&#xA;&gt; women." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15913" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4790" RevisionGUID="e8a42ec7-a25c-4cf4-8aa1-5d187a9cc8c6" CreationDate="2018-04-23T18:38:04.093" UserId="4985" Text="In the novel American Gods by Neil Gaiman Shadow and Mr. Wednesday meet Czernobog.  He tells the story of his use of a hammer as a &quot;knocker&quot;, a job he has taken in &#xD;&#xA;America&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;So, I got job on killing floor as a knocker. It was a good job. Yeah, skilled labor. A cow comes up the ramp. Boom, boom, boom. And you take a sledge hammer, and - Boop! You knock the cow dead. It takes strength. It takes strength, but not only strength. It takes talent, because it's a craft.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From http://americangods.wikia.com/wiki/Czernobog&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; This character is aligned with the Slavic god Chernobog.  Is there a connection in the mythology between Chernobog and a hammer or was the merely a creation of the author?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15914" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4790" RevisionGUID="e8a42ec7-a25c-4cf4-8aa1-5d187a9cc8c6" CreationDate="2018-04-23T18:38:04.093" UserId="4985" Text="Link between mythological Czernobog and his hammer" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15915" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4790" RevisionGUID="e8a42ec7-a25c-4cf4-8aa1-5d187a9cc8c6" CreationDate="2018-04-23T18:38:04.093" UserId="4985" Text="|slavic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15916" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4761" RevisionGUID="80760b18-cd6c-4356-b209-6fa954029a90" CreationDate="2018-04-23T19:19:08.000" UserId="2892" Comment="added 1285 characters in body" Text="Cupid and Psyche have a happy ending:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;But Cupid, being now recovered from his wound, and not able longer to bear the absence of his beloved Psyche, slipping through the smallest crack of the window of his chamber which happened to be left open, flew to the spot where Psyche lay, and gathering up the sleep from her body closed it again in the box, and waked Psyche with a light touch of one of his arrows. &quot;Again,&quot; said he, &quot;have you almost perished by the same curiosity. But now perform exactly the task imposed on you by my mother, and I will take care of the rest.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Cupid, as swift as lightning penetrating the heights of heaven, presented himself before Jupiter with his supplication. Jupiter lent a favoring ear, and pleaded the cause of the lovers so earnestly with Venus that he won her consent. On this he sent Mercury to bring Psyche up to the heavenly assembly, and when she arrived, handing her a cup of ambrosia, he said, &quot;Drink this, Psyche, and be immortal; nor shall Cupid ever break away from the knot in which he is tied, but these nuptials shall be perpetual.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thus Psyche became at last united to Cupid, and in due time they had a daughter born to them whose name was Pleasure.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Bulfinch, from Apuleius][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.pitt.edu/~dash/cupid.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15917" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4777" RevisionGUID="5fa606d9-2244-44c9-9492-cc8b6e647cc5" CreationDate="2018-04-23T19:47:44.560" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="Expanded Love theme" Text="- **Love** - for example there is entire category in wikipedia for this theme. [Love and lust goddesses][1] - this is about mythology of different peoples of the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- War&#xD;&#xA;- Food&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are themes for all mythologies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Love_and_lust_goddesses" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15918" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4777" RevisionGUID="c445e95d-e6f9-4ee9-af50-57ec54e686ba" CreationDate="2018-04-23T20:01:56.710" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="Expanded War theme" Text="- **Love** - for example there is entire category in wikipedia for this theme. [Love and lust goddesses][1] - this is about mythology of different peoples of the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **War** - according to wikipedia (again) count of gods of war is more then gods of love [List of war deities][2]. And in russian too: [Боги войны][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Food&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are themes for all mythologies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Love_and_lust_goddesses&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_deities&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%8F:%D0%91%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B8_%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B9%D0%BD%D1%8B" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15919" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4791" RevisionGUID="eec2129f-d2a9-4912-8f4c-43b8c2307aa6" CreationDate="2018-04-23T20:19:30.853" UserId="4985" Text="Dragons show up in many mythologies:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Norse:**  Jörmungandr is the &quot;world serpent&quot; &#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rmungandr&#xD;&#xA;&gt;According to the Prose Edda, Odin took Loki's three children by Angrboða — the wolf Fenrir, Hel, and Jörmungandr — and tossed Jörmungandr into the great ocean that encircles Midgard.[2] The serpent grew so large that it was able to surround the earth and grasp its own tail.[2] As a result, it received the name of the Midgard Serpent or World Serpent. When it releases its tail, Ragnarök will begin. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Christianity:**  Satan is depicted as the serpent&#xD;&#xA;Genesis 3:1 NIV &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And again in Revelation &#xD;&#xA;https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+12&amp;version=NIV&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”[a] And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.&#xD;&#xA;7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Chinese:**  Dragons are quite prevalent in Chinese mythology:&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_dragon&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Chinese dragons or East Asian dragons are legendary creatures in Chinese mythology, Chinese folklore, and East Asian culture at large. East Asian dragons have many animal-like forms such as turtles and fish, but are most commonly depicted as snake-like with four legs. They traditionally symbolize potent and auspicious powers, particularly control over water, rainfall, typhoons, and floods. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many additional listings found on the Wikipedia page below including the Hydra (Greek), Tiamat (Babylonian), and the Tarasque (French):&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dragons_in_mythology_and_folklore&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15920" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4777" RevisionGUID="b96d3a7c-eccf-46d1-8cf8-2b02b1e01cf4" CreationDate="2018-04-23T20:25:21.023" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="Expanded Food theme. Added title." Text="##The universal themes, which may be found in many mythologies of the peoples of the world&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **Love** - for example there is entire category in wikipedia for this theme. [Love and lust goddesses][1] - this is about mythology of different peoples of the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **War** - according to wikipedia (again) count of gods of war is more then gods of love [List of war deities][2]. And in russian too: [Боги войны][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **Food** - it is more complicated theme then two previous. There are [List of fertility deities][4], [Agricultural goddesses][5], and even stories of the food or some relation with it may occur with other gods or mythological  creatures https://mythology.net/?s=food&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Love_and_lust_goddesses&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_deities&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%8F:%D0%91%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B8_%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B9%D0%BD%D1%8B&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fertility_deities&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Agricultural_goddesses" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15921" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4791" RevisionGUID="fd0c889f-7a37-4dc8-8e80-1e0f7b0f667e" CreationDate="2018-04-23T20:31:14.960" UserId="4985" Comment="added 13 characters in body" Text="Dragons show up thematically in many mythologies:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Norse:**  Jörmungandr is the &quot;world serpent&quot; &#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rmungandr&#xD;&#xA;&gt;According to the Prose Edda, Odin took Loki's three children by Angrboða — the wolf Fenrir, Hel, and Jörmungandr — and tossed Jörmungandr into the great ocean that encircles Midgard.[2] The serpent grew so large that it was able to surround the earth and grasp its own tail.[2] As a result, it received the name of the Midgard Serpent or World Serpent. When it releases its tail, Ragnarök will begin. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Christianity:**  Satan is depicted as the serpent&#xD;&#xA;Genesis 3:1 NIV &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And again in Revelation &#xD;&#xA;https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+12&amp;version=NIV&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”[a] And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.&#xD;&#xA;7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Chinese:**  Dragons are quite prevalent in Chinese mythology:&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_dragon&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Chinese dragons or East Asian dragons are legendary creatures in Chinese mythology, Chinese folklore, and East Asian culture at large. East Asian dragons have many animal-like forms such as turtles and fish, but are most commonly depicted as snake-like with four legs. They traditionally symbolize potent and auspicious powers, particularly control over water, rainfall, typhoons, and floods. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many additional listings found on the Wikipedia page below including the Hydra (Greek), Tiamat (Babylonian), and the Tarasque (French):&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dragons_in_mythology_and_folklore&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15922" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4792" RevisionGUID="61c84a6b-dc01-435a-8a7a-cf80e38e511d" CreationDate="2018-04-23T20:58:47.093" UserDisplayName="user4660" Text="In Slavic mythology, the image of [Chernobog][1] is not associated with any type of weapon, including a hammer. Chernobog is the embodiment of evil, darkness, misery etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some scientists reconstructed a pair of Belobog/Chernobog, who are opposed to &quot;light/dark&quot;, &quot;good/evil&quot;, &quot;happiness/misery&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Chernobog, hummer and other Gods, thing and creatures are author's fantasy and compilation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobog" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15923" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4783" RevisionGUID="fd806154-b797-4c49-aa3c-5c4957cb8c96" CreationDate="2018-04-23T21:02:32.863" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected spelling (&amp; some minor details), fixed grammar &amp; improved formatting" Text="[![Athanassakis Homeric Hymn to Demeter 1-3][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sub&gt;*`Homeric Hymn to Demeter 1-3 (A.N. Athanassakis translation)`*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;No Ancient Greek source that I have come across explicitly mentions Hades asking for Persephone. In one way or another they all say simply that Zeus gave Persephone to his brother, and that the giveaway method was the fairly common worldwide practice of bride-kidnapping, which in some instances would happen with the consent of the bride's father, often with the mother having no say in the matter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The wording of that sentence in the Wikipedia article is the source of the confusion here, as it could be read to mean that out of the blue (as it were), Zeus accosted Hades and issued him this directive of &quot;obtaining&quot; Persephone. But that's not how the story really goes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is indeed a perspicuous ancient report of Hades following the expected custom of asking for his prospective bride's hand in marriage from her father. The source of the quote, however, is Roman, from Hyginus' *Fabulae*, regarding which see below.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Homeric Hymn to Demeter&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Your Wikipedia reference appears to have come out of [**the translation by Gregory Nagy**](https://chs.harvard.edu/CHS/article/display/5292), from Harvard University's Center for Hellenic Studies, of the Homeric Hymn to Demeter (written c. the 500s BC), the relevant portion thereof being when Hades nabs Persephone in Lines 30-32:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **She was being taken, against her will, at the behest of Zeus**,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; by her father's brother, the one who makes many *sēmata*, the one who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; receives many guests,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; the son of Kronos, the one with many names. On the chariot drawn by immortal horses.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sub&gt;(*Emphasis mine*)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some other translations render it as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Unwilling was Persephone, but her father's brother, Sovran and Lord of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; all, many-named Son of Kronos, with the abetting of Zeus, bore her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; away on his immortal steeds.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; [John Edgar, 1891](https://archive.org/stream/homerichymns00edgaiala#page/84/mode/2up)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;So he, that Son of Cronos, of many names, who is Ruler of Many and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Host of Many, was bearing her away by leave of Zeus on his immortal&#xD;&#xA;&gt; chariot—his own brother's child and all unwilling.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; Hugh Gerard Evelyn-White, 1914&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;So although she resisted,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Ruler of Many and Receiver of Many  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; drover her away on his immortal horses   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; his own brother's child  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; —for Zeus had contrived it—   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; the son of Kronos with many names.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; [Jules Cashford, 2003](https://books.google.com/books?id=YQVdvH_z74oC&amp;pg=PT39)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;By Zeus's counsels, his brother, the All-receiver   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; and Ruler of Many, Kronos's son of many names,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; was carrying her away with his immortal horses, against her will.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; Apostolos N. Athanassakis, 2004&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;But her father's brother, Kronos' son of many names,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lord of the Many Dead, stole the unwilling girl   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; away on his immortal horses, with a nod from Zeus.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; [Diane J. Rayor, 2004](https://books.google.com/books?id=PDtJ-2-e-esC&amp;pg=PA18)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is what is being translated above, from Evelyn-White's edition of the Greek text:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *τὴν δ᾽ ἀεκαζομένην ἦγεν Διὸς ἐννεσίῃσι   &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; πατροκασίγνητος, Πολυσημάντωρ Πολυδέγμων,   &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; ἵπποις ἀθανάτοισι, Κρόνου πολυώνυμος υἱός.*  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is a transliteration of it into Roman script:    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *`tên d' aekazomenên êgen Dios ennesiêisi`*    &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *`patrokasignêtos Polysêmantôr Polydegmôn`*    &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *`hippois athanatoisi Kronou polyônymos huios`*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The word ἐννεσίῃσι (*ennesiêisi*), which Nagy renders as &quot;at the behest&quot;, also appears in *Theogony* 492, where Evelyn-White translates it as &quot;suggestions&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Evelyn-White's and Rayor's renditions of the same word in the Hymn imply *permission granted*, where, respectively they have: &quot;by leave [of]&quot; and &quot;with a nod [from]&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Edgar's version &quot;with the abetting&quot; makes it more conspiratorial between Zeus and Hades. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Athanassakis's &quot;By Zeus's counsels&quot; denotes *advice* or *a strong suggestion* to the prospective bridegroom. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cashford straight-up makes Zeus the mastermind of the scheme, &quot;For Zeus had contrived it&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Evelyn-White also uses the clause &quot;the behest of Zeus&quot; in his translation of the Hymn, although this is in Line 359, where the messenger-god Hermes has been sent to Hades with the command that Persephone, whose mother has been inconsolably searching after her, should be restored to Demeter in the upper world. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Aidoneus, ruler over the dead, smiled grimly and obeyed the behest&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Zeus the king.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;The behest of Zeus the king&quot; is from  Διὸς βασιλῆος ἐφετμῇς (*Dios basilêos ephetmês*).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Theogony*&#xD;&#xA;------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod's *Theogony*, from perhaps a century or two earlier than the Homeric Hymns, in Lines 912-914 of Evelyn-White's 1920 translation (and the corresponding Greek text), while listing the wives of Zeus, says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Also he came to the bed of all-nourishing Demeter, and she bare&#xD;&#xA;&gt; white-armed Persephone whom Aïdoneus carried off from her mother; but&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wise Zeus gave her to him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *αὐτὰρ ὁ Δήμητρος πολυφόρβης ἐς λέχος ἦλθεν,  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; ἣ τέκε Περσεφόνην λευκώλενον, ἣν Ἀιδωνεὺς  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; ἥρπασεν ἧς παρὰ μητρός: ἔδωκε δὲ μητίετα Ζεύς.*   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *`autar ho Dêmêtros polyphorbês es lekhos êlthen:`*    &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *`hê teke Persephonên leukôlenon, hên Aïdôneus`*  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *`hêrpasen hês para mêtros, edôke de mêtieta Zeus.`*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Daryl Hine's translation (2005):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Next Zeus went to the bed of Demeter who nourishes many,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Who gave birth to Persephone who had white arms and whom Hades   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Snatched from her mother; but Zeus in his wisdom gave her to Hades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Library&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Written about half a millennium after the Homeric Hymns, (Pseudo-)Apollodorus' Βιβλιοθήκη (*Bibliothêke*), the &quot;Library,&quot; refers to Hades by his epithet Πλούτων (*Ploutôn*), the &quot;Wealthy&quot; One. The sobriquet was eventually applied by the Romans to their version of this deity, whom they called Pluto. Most of the following translations of Βιβλιοθήκη 1.5.1 use this *Latinised* spelling of the name. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pluto fell in love with Persephone and with the help of Zeus carried&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her off secretly.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sub&gt;[James George Frazer, 1921](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus1.html#5)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pluto fell in love with Persephone, and with Zeus' help secretly&#xD;&#xA;&gt; kidnaped* her.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sub&gt;Keith Aldrich, 1975&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sub&gt;*Apparently a viable U.S. spelling of *kidnap[**p**]ed*(!), which I had never encountered before this. (*Eep!*)&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pluto fell in love with Persephone and, with the help of Zeus, he secretly&#xD;&#xA;&gt; abducted her...  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sub&gt;[Robin Hard, 1997](https://books.google.com/books?id=gZ6uuHEBE2wC&amp;pg=PA33)&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Plouton fell in love with Persephone and secretly kidnapped her with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zeus' help.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sub&gt;R. Scott Smith &amp; Stephen M. Trzaskoma, 2007&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sup&gt;From Frazer's edition of the Greek text:&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *Πλούτων δὲ Περσεφόνης ἐρασθεὶς Διὸς συνεργοῦντος ἥρπασεν αὐτὴν κρύφα.*  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *`Ploutôn de Persephones erastheis Dios synergountos hêrpasen autên krypha.`* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Fabulae*&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With Hyginus writing in Latin, his *Fabulae*, naturally, contains the Roman names of the characters, so that Zeus is Jove or Jupiter, Demeter is Ceres, and Persephone is Proserpina. *Fabulae* 146 has the word *Tartarus* as a generic term for the entire Underworld, such as it came to be typically identified in Latin literature especially later into the Christian era. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Mary Grant's 1960 translation of the passage:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pluto asked from Jove that he give him in marriage Ceres' daughter and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his own. Jove said that Ceres would not permit her daughter to live in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gloomy Tartarus, but bade him seize her as she was gathering flowers&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on Mount Etna, which is in Sicily.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;R. Scott Smith &amp; Stephen M. Trzaskoma's 2007 translation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pluto asked Jupiter if he could marry Proserpina, his daughter by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ceres. Jupiter said that Ceres would never allow her daughter to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reside in the darkness of Tartarus; he told him, however, to abduct&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her while she was picking flowers on Mount Aetna, which is in Sicily.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Ludwig Maximilian University’s 1872 edition of the Latin text, involving Moritz Schmidt:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Pluton petit ab love Proserpinam filiam eius et Cereris in coniugium [daret]. lovis negavit Cererem passuram ut filia sua in tartaro&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tenebricoso sit, sed iubet eum rapere eam flores legentem in monte&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aetna, qui est in Sicilia.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In summary, Zeus (Jupiter) does not arbitrarily command Hades (Pluto) to kidnap Persephone (Proserpina). Hades asks for her first and then Zeus advises on the means of achieving this goal. Thus what is being performed *at the behest of Zeus* is this scheme that he has set in motion, and which, according to Line 9 of the Hymn to Demeter, is in place for the purpose of pleasing Hades.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*De Raptu Proserpinae*&#xD;&#xA;--------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is one more Roman source which is relevant to your Question, namely *De Raptu Proserpinae*, &quot;Rape of Proserpina,&quot; by a poet of the 300s AD, named Claudian. In it, Pluto does not ask Jupiter specifically for Proserpina, although he does demand a wife, threatening war between his realm and Heaven if his brother does not comply. Frighteningly so, Claudian's Pluto is genuinely powerful enough to issue such a demand to the king of the gods.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By the way, the communication between the brothers does not require the presence of the Underworld-King on Mt Olympus. Just as Zeus sends Hermes to Aïdoneus in the Homeric Hymn to Demeter, similarly in *De Raptu Proserpinae*, Pluto sends Mercurius (the Roman Hermes) with his threatening demand to Jupiter, telling him, according to [Maurice Platnauer's 1922 translation](https://archive.org/stream/claudian00unkngoog#page/n310/mode/2up), to:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bear these my behests to proud Jove (1.92-93).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *proscinde Notos et iussa superbo redde Iovi.*&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Other translations:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Fly hence, with speedy wing cut through the winde,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; To thy vngratefull Sire thus speake our minde...  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; [Leonard Digges, 1617](https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A18949.0001.001/1:5.1?rgn=div2;view=fulltext)&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;&quot;Bear to the haughty ruler of the skies,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;And swiftly speed thy flight, these my resolves—  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; [Jacob George Strutt, 1814](https://archive.org/stream/rapeproserpinew00claugoog#page/n32/mode/2up)&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The dialogue delivered to Mercurius thereafter takes up a chunky paragraph in which Pluto, interestingly, never actually comes out and says that he wants Jupiter to give him a bride, rather he angrily complains that while his brothers are married and that Jupiter in particular has many happy children surrounding him, he himself has no one to keep him warm in the gloom of the nether world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He paints an especially grim and miserable picture of his kingdom, which he thinks is &quot;hideous&quot;, and now that Pluto has been allocated that portion of the cosmos, he asks, in Platnauer's words (1.103):  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; must thou also forbid our marriage?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *sed thalamis etiam prohibes?*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For this, Digges has &quot;Forbidd'st me Nuptiall rites&quot;, while Strutt makes it: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Dost thou prohibit, too, joys that attend  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;On wedded hours?    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That phrase is the closest that he comes to articulating what he wants, amid the complaints and threats. So far in the text, there isn't much intelligible context for this statement: Pluto does not appear to be speaking about marriage to a specific person, nor have we been told of an episode in which Jupiter has prevented him from getting married. The problem seems to be, as Jupiter fears upon receiving the message, &quot;who would dare such a marriage, who would wish to exchange the sun for the caves of Styx&quot;? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond that, Pluto might perhaps be addressing Jupiter as the head of the family, who in Roman culture (as in various other traditions around the world) is responsible for even his grownup siblings who share his estate (the family estate in this case being the entire universe). Perhaps Pluto is to be understood as expecting a marriage to be arranged by his brother who is higher than him (in both status and elevation).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only portion of the poem which can be construed as Jupiter giving Pluto a command is a couple of lines (1.278-279) in which Jove refers to the scheme he has set up requiring the god of the dead to be ready to seize Proserpina while she is out &quot;sporting in the level meadows by the first light of rosy dawn tomorrow&quot; (*my own gloss of Platnauer's translation of 1.221-222*). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Platnauer's version of the aforementioned 1.278-279: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pluto, warned by his brother, made his way to the upper air.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *iamque viam Pluto superas molitur ad auras  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; germani monitu.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Digges' version, written in the time of William Shakespeare and King James, is currently rather gnarly English, where the letters `j` and `i` are interchangeable, as are &quot;u&quot; and &quot;v&quot;:&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whil'st Pluto warn'd by *Ioue*  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; His iourney plot's&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Strutt's version:       &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And now prepared to seek the upper skies,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Warn'd by the voice of Jove, Pluto arose&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; **References**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Aldrich, K.M. 1975. *The Library of Greek Mythology, by Apollodorus*. Coronado Press&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Athanassakis, A.N. 2004. *The Homeric Hymns*, Second Edition. The John Hopkins University Press, Baltimore, MA&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Cashford, J. 2003. *The Homeric Hymns*. Penguin, London&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Digges, L. 1617. *The Rape of Proserpine, Translated out of Claudian in Latine, into English Verse*. Edward Blount, England&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Edgar, J. 1891. *The Homeric Hymns* Translated into English&#xD;&#xA;   Prose. James Thin, Edinburgh&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Frazer, J.G. 1921. *Apollodorus: The Library, with an English Translation*, in Two Volumes. William Heinemann, London, &amp; G.P. Putnam's Sons, New York&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Evelyn-White, H.G. 1914. *Hesiod, the Homeric Hymns and&#xD;&#xA;   Homerica*. Loeb Classical Library (Book 57)&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Hard, R. 1997. *Apollodorus: The Library of Greek Mythology*. Oxford University Press, Inc. New York&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Hine, D. 2007. *Works of Hesiod and the Homeric Hymns: Works and Days; Theogony; The Homeric Hymns; The Battle of the Frogs and the Mice*. University of Chicago Press, Chicago; &amp; University of Chicago Press, Ltd., London&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Nagy, G. 2016, *Homeric Hymn to Demeter*, Center for Hellenic&#xD;&#xA;   Studies, Harvard University, Washington, DC, viewed 22 April 2018, https://chs.harvard.edu/CHS/article/display/5292&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Platnauer, M. 1922. *Claudian*, in Two Volumes. William Heinemann, London, &amp; G.P. Putnam's Sons, New York&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Rayor, D.J. 2004. *The Homeric Hymns: A Translation, with Introduction and Notes*. University of California Press, Berkeley &amp; Los Angeles, CA; &amp; University of California Press, Ltd., London, England&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Smith, R.S., &amp; Trzaskoma, S.M. 2007. Apollodorus' *Library* and Hyginus' *Fabulae*: Two Handbooks of Greek Mythology, Translated. Hackett Publishing Company, Inc., Indianapolis/Cambridge&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Strutt, J.G. 1814. *The Rape of Proserpine: With Other Poems, from Claudian; Translated into English Verse, with a Prefatory Discourse, and Occasional Notes*. A.J. Valpy; &amp; Messrs. Longman, Hurst, Rees, Orme, &amp; Brown; &amp; Josiah Conder, London&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/cOed0.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15924" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4793" RevisionGUID="1e46a77e-5f3c-4f27-99cd-e29fbd8fcf19" CreationDate="2018-04-23T21:12:01.507" UserId="4271" Text="*It has come to my attention that the Egyptian tag only has 49 questions tagged. So close to 50. Wait, this is question 50. Congratulation [insert creator of Egyptian tag here] on your Taxonomist badge.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To explain my title, we humans call the earth 'Mother Earth'. I can trace this back to Gaia, Greek goddess of the earth, Demeter, Greek goddess of agriculture and others. But, I remembered that Egyptian Mythology had a male as the god of the earth. His name is Geb or Keb and sometimes Seb.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do any other mythologies have a male god as the personification of the earth?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Also, comparative tagged 100 times.*" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
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  <row Id="15930" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4794" RevisionGUID="6b76d318-3fb1-4a5c-854a-241e6486643f" CreationDate="2018-04-23T21:23:45.757" UserId="4657" Text="|japanese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15937" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4743" RevisionGUID="25e49553-4c1e-4183-ad98-f3ea666337f5" CreationDate="2018-04-23T22:01:30.053" UserId="2892" Comment="edited title" Text="What was Athena's punishment for her involvement in a plot against Zeus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15938" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4792" RevisionGUID="c8911c4b-2ddf-43ec-bbe9-f1484d9506e1" CreationDate="2018-04-23T23:07:45.023" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="added 14 characters in body" Text="In Slavic mythology, the image of [Chernobog][1] is not associated with any type of weapon, including a hammer. Chernobog is the embodiment of evil, darkness, misery etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some scientists reconstructed a pair of Belobog/Chernobog, who are opposed to &quot;light/dark&quot;, &quot;good/evil&quot;, &quot;happiness/misery&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Chernobog, hummer and other Gods, thing and creatures in that novel are author's fantasy and compilation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobog" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15939" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4793" RevisionGUID="c9d5201f-9d3a-4661-9a7c-6454317229c5" CreationDate="2018-04-24T09:20:23.413" UserId="57" Comment="please avoid meta commentary in your posts." Text="To explain my title, we humans call the earth 'Mother Earth'. I can trace this back to Gaia, the Greek goddess of the earth, Demeter, the Greek goddess of agriculture and others. But, I remembered that Egyptian Mythology had a male as the god of the earth. His name is Geb or Keb and sometimes Seb.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do any other mythologies have a male god as the personification of the earth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15940" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4792" RevisionGUID="ebd9c633-834b-4fd9-a7dd-a7b173d61676" CreationDate="2018-04-24T11:39:13.440" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="Added some words about Thor and Mjölnir" Text="In Slavic mythology, the image of [Chernobog][1] is not associated with any type of weapon, including a hammer. Chernobog is the embodiment of evil, darkness, misery etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some scientists reconstructed a pair of Belobog/Chernobog, who are opposed to each other as &quot;light/dark&quot;, &quot;good/evil&quot;, &quot;happiness/misery&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Chernobog, hummer and other Gods, thing and creatures in that novel are author's fantasy and compilation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;###UPD:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Chernobog** - in literal translation &quot;Black God&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Belobog** - in literal translation &quot;White God&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [Norse mythology][2], the mythology of peoples of North Germany and Scandinavia there is a God of thunder, lightning, storms etc, his name is [Thor][3]. His image is associated with hammer - its name is [Mjölnir][4], the one of the most fearsome and powerful weapons in existence, capable of leveling mountains.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][5]][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;May be author of that novel mixed up two images from different cultures?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobog&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mj%C3%B6lnir&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/RDoWi.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15941" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4795" RevisionGUID="b043870e-cb05-48c5-a6c3-3d2e8a892761" CreationDate="2018-04-24T13:33:35.180" UserId="4271" Text="Kerberos (Latin- Cerberus) is the three headed guard dog into the entrance of the Underworld. He is most known for being kidnapped by Heracles for him 12th labor. By it is never mentioned how Kerberos ended up guarding the Underworld." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15942" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4795" RevisionGUID="b043870e-cb05-48c5-a6c3-3d2e8a892761" CreationDate="2018-04-24T13:33:35.180" UserId="4271" Text="How did Hades get Kerberos?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15943" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4795" RevisionGUID="b043870e-cb05-48c5-a6c3-3d2e8a892761" CreationDate="2018-04-24T13:33:35.180" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|underworld|monsters|hades|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15944" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4795" RevisionGUID="3faee28d-2388-4128-b172-a3e65de48a72" CreationDate="2018-04-24T14:46:31.193" UserId="2807" Comment="Fixed small typos, changed 'kidnapped' to 'captured'" Text="Kerberos (Latin: Cerberus) is the three headed dog that guards the entrance of the Underworld. He is most known for being captured by Heracles for his 12th labor. But it is never mentioned how Kerberos ended up guarding the Underworld." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15945" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4795" RevisionGUID="3faee28d-2388-4128-b172-a3e65de48a72" CreationDate="2018-04-24T14:46:31.193" Comment="Proposed by 2807 approved by 4271 edit id of 1630" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15946" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4796" RevisionGUID="65322e47-0dd5-451e-a09a-553a99be8bea" CreationDate="2018-04-24T14:54:08.953" UserId="4271" Text="The Slavic god [Veles][1] is said to be one of few gods where evidence is present to be given offering in all Slavic nations. Who are the other gods that were given offerings in all Slavic nations?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veles_(god)#Sources" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15947" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4796" RevisionGUID="65322e47-0dd5-451e-a09a-553a99be8bea" CreationDate="2018-04-24T14:54:08.953" UserId="4271" Text="What gods were given offering in all Slavic nations?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15948" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4796" RevisionGUID="65322e47-0dd5-451e-a09a-553a99be8bea" CreationDate="2018-04-24T14:54:08.953" UserId="4271" Text="|slavic|worship|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15949" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4797" RevisionGUID="28196f14-1d5d-42d2-8eac-665b91d80c27" CreationDate="2018-04-24T15:33:12.193" UserId="4271" Text="[Atabey][1], goddess, is one of two supreme (major) gods in Taino Mythology (Caribbean islands). She was worshiped as the goddess of fresh water, though her representation as an Earth Spirit connects her to horizontal water (including the sea, salt water).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It specifically says *horizontal water*. Why is this?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atabey_(goddess)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15950" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4797" RevisionGUID="28196f14-1d5d-42d2-8eac-665b91d80c27" CreationDate="2018-04-24T15:33:12.193" UserId="4271" Text="Why is Atabey specifically the goddess/spirit of horizontal water?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15951" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4797" RevisionGUID="28196f14-1d5d-42d2-8eac-665b91d80c27" CreationDate="2018-04-24T15:33:12.193" UserId="4271" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15952" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4798" RevisionGUID="25412afe-c88f-4cbb-bc35-79795b5a9c2f" CreationDate="2018-04-24T17:20:33.433" UserId="2892" Text="My understanding of the [Japanese tea ceremony](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_tea_ceremony) is that it arose out of the Zen tradition, which has no gods.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, I did find mention of a Japanese [kami][1] associated with tea, [Inari Ōkami][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also god of tea, [Lu Yu][3], author of [The Classic of Tea][4], in Chinese folklore, .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kami&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inari_%C5%8Ckami&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lu_Yu&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Classic_of_Tea" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15953" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4799" RevisionGUID="c20ffd8e-e0e9-432b-9ae4-990e907043eb" CreationDate="2018-04-24T18:01:22.233" UserId="2892" Text="This is almost certainly [Thyestes][1], brother of Atreus.  (Atreus was the father of Agamemnon and Menelaus.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyestes" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15954" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4799" RevisionGUID="7a8f2c05-85a6-4ae5-af2f-5f504fcd8643" CreationDate="2018-04-24T18:14:30.817" UserId="2892" Comment="added 1032 characters in body" Text="This is almost certainly [Thyestes][1], brother of Atreus.  (Atreus was the father of Agamemnon and Menelaus.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Atreus now sent a herald to lure Thyestes back to Mycenae with the offer of an amnesty and a half-share in the kingdom; but, as soon as Thyestes accepted this, [Atreus] slaughtered Aglaus, Orchomenus, and Callileon, Thyeste's three sons by one of the Naiads, on the very altar of Zeus where thy had taken refuge; and then sought out and killed the infant Pleisthenes the Second, and Tantalus the Second, his twin.  He hacked them all limb from limb, and set chosen morsels of thier flesh, boiled in a cauldron, before Thyestes, to welcome him on his return.  When Thyestes had eaten heartily, Atreus sent in their bloody heads and feet and hands, laid out on another dish, to show [Thyestes] what was now inside his belly.  Thyestes fell back, vomiting, and laid an ineluctable curse upon the seed of Atreus.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;The Greek Myths, citing Tzetes: *Chiliades* i.18 ff; Apolodorus: *Epitome* ii.13; Hyginus: *Fabulae* [88][2], [246][3], and [258][4]; Scholiast on Horace's *Art of Poetry*; Aeschylus: [*Agamemnon* 1590 ff.][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some family!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyestes&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://latin.packhum.org/loc/1263/1/0#39&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://latin.packhum.org/loc/1263/1/0#101&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://latin.packhum.org/loc/1263/1/0#105&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0004%3Acard%3D1577" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15955" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4799" RevisionGUID="00c7064a-031c-4bd4-91c3-db8ec4eade2e" CreationDate="2018-04-24T18:19:50.693" UserId="2892" Comment="added 146 characters in body" Text="This is almost certainly [Thyestes][1], brother of Atreus.  (Atreus was the father of Agamemnon and Menelaus.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Atreus now sent a herald to lure Thyestes back to Mycenae with the offer of an amnesty and a half-share in the kingdom; but, as soon as Thyestes accepted this, [Atreus] slaughtered Aglaus, Orchomenus, and Callileon, Thyeste's three sons by one of the Naiads, on the very altar of Zeus where thy had taken refuge; and then sought out and killed the infant Pleisthenes the Second, and Tantalus the Second, his twin.  He hacked them all limb from limb, and set chosen morsels of thier flesh, boiled in a cauldron, before Thyestes, to welcome him on his return.  When Thyestes had eaten heartily, Atreus sent in their bloody heads and feet and hands, laid out on another dish, to show [Thyestes] what was now inside his belly.  Thyestes fell back, vomiting, and laid an ineluctable curse upon the seed of Atreus.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;The Greek Myths, citing Tzetes: [*Chiliades* i.18 ff][2]; Apollodorus: [*Epitome* ii.13][3]; Hyginus: *Fabulae* [88][4], [246][5], and [258][6]; [Scholiast on Horace's *Art of Poetry*][7]; Aeschylus: [*Agamemnon* 1590 ff.][8]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some family!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyestes&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://archive.org/stream/TzetzesCHILIADES/Chiliades_djvu.txt&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DEpitome%3Abook%3DE%3Achapter%3D2%3Asection%3D13&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://latin.packhum.org/loc/1263/1/0#39&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://latin.packhum.org/loc/1263/1/0#101&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://latin.packhum.org/loc/1263/1/0#105&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_works_of_Horace/Book_upon_the_Art_of_Poetry&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0004%3Acard%3D1577" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15956" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4799" RevisionGUID="82c6b987-6f5b-49e0-ab5b-4421eaeaa162" CreationDate="2018-04-24T18:35:45.287" UserId="2892" Comment="added 51 characters in body" Text="This is almost certainly [Thyestes][1], brother of Atreus.  (Atreus was the father of Agamemnon and Menelaus.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Atreus now sent a herald to lure Thyestes back to Mycenae with the offer of an amnesty and a half-share in the kingdom; but, as soon as Thyestes accepted this, [Atreus] slaughtered Aglaus, Orchomenus, and Callileon, Thyeste's three sons by one of the Naiads, on the very altar of Zeus where thy had taken refuge; and then sought out and killed the infant Pleisthenes the Second, and Tantalus the Second, his twin.  He hacked them all limb from limb, and set chosen morsels of thier flesh, boiled in a cauldron, before Thyestes, to welcome him on his return.  When Thyestes had eaten heartily, Atreus sent in their bloody heads and feet and hands, laid out on another dish, to show [Thyestes] what was now inside his belly.  Thyestes fell back, vomiting, and laid an ineluctable curse upon the seed of Atreus.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;The Greek Myths, citing Tzetes: [*Chiliades* i.18 ff][2]; Apollodorus: [*Epitome* ii.13][3]; Hyginus: *Fabulae* [88][4], [246][5], and [258][6]; [Scholiast on Horace's *Art of Poetry*][7]; Aeschylus: [*Agamemnon* 1590 ff.][8]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is the origin of the &quot;Curse of the Atreides&quot;. Some family!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyestes&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://archive.org/stream/TzetzesCHILIADES/Chiliades_djvu.txt&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DEpitome%3Abook%3DE%3Achapter%3D2%3Asection%3D13&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://latin.packhum.org/loc/1263/1/0#39&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://latin.packhum.org/loc/1263/1/0#101&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://latin.packhum.org/loc/1263/1/0#105&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_works_of_Horace/Book_upon_the_Art_of_Poetry&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0004%3Acard%3D1577" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15960" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4800" RevisionGUID="ae9f5ab5-4e1a-4e2c-8d66-a1a1694fabe5" CreationDate="2018-04-24T19:01:37.167" UserId="666" Text="This is **The Choice of Hercules**, or sometimes **Hercules at the Crossroads**, a story that was once rather highly regarded. First told by [Prodicus][1], whose works have been lost. Prodicus was apparantly a friend of Socrates, and is mentioned by Plato and Xenophon, through which some of his teachings survive. This one comes from Xenophon's *[Memorabilia][2]*, 2.1.29-40 ([here][3] is a a free translation into English)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hercules at the crossroads is a rather simple parable, where the young hero meets two ladies, one clad simply and with modest manners, the other clad more richly and revealing. The latter urges him to choose a life of pleasure, while the former tells him to live a life of virtue, and that the joy of doing what is right and just will be greater than the simple pleasures of a dissipated life. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story was taken up in renaissance and baroque art, and there are several paintings that depict the scene, as well as retellings in operatic and poetic form. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prodicus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorabilia_(Xenophon)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1177/1177-h/1177-h.htm#link2H_4_0004" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15961" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4801" RevisionGUID="dfbc3df6-b544-4720-a9b1-4dc1eac9ce50" CreationDate="2018-04-24T19:27:25.197" UserId="4992" Text="FOUND IT FOUND IT FOUND IT!!!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was Harpagus, and it was an &quot;actual event&quot; written up bei Herodotus: https://goo.gl/kSRs9A&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gee, my memory is still really really sharp when it comes to the details of unfoldings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you everyone!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15962" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4799" RevisionGUID="35687a06-c73b-40ff-ab52-6c0b32b56e8d" CreationDate="2018-04-24T19:34:51.867" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 8 characters in body" Text="This sounds like [Thyestes][1], brother of Atreus.  (Atreus was the father of Agamemnon and Menelaus.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Atreus now sent a herald to lure Thyestes back to Mycenae with the offer of an amnesty and a half-share in the kingdom; but, as soon as Thyestes accepted this, [Atreus] slaughtered Aglaus, Orchomenus, and Callileon, Thyeste's three sons by one of the Naiads, on the very altar of Zeus where thy had taken refuge; and then sought out and killed the infant Pleisthenes the Second, and Tantalus the Second, his twin.  He hacked them all limb from limb, and set chosen morsels of thier flesh, boiled in a cauldron, before Thyestes, to welcome him on his return.  When Thyestes had eaten heartily, Atreus sent in their bloody heads and feet and hands, laid out on another dish, to show [Thyestes] what was now inside his belly.  Thyestes fell back, vomiting, and laid an ineluctable curse upon the seed of Atreus.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;The Greek Myths, citing Tzetes: [*Chiliades* i.18 ff][2]; Apollodorus: [*Epitome* ii.13][3]; Hyginus: *Fabulae* [88][4], [246][5], and [258][6]; [Scholiast on Horace's *Art of Poetry*][7]; Aeschylus: [*Agamemnon* 1590 ff.][8]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is the origin of the &quot;Curse of the Atreides&quot;. Some family!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyestes&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://archive.org/stream/TzetzesCHILIADES/Chiliades_djvu.txt&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DEpitome%3Abook%3DE%3Achapter%3D2%3Asection%3D13&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://latin.packhum.org/loc/1263/1/0#39&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://latin.packhum.org/loc/1263/1/0#101&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://latin.packhum.org/loc/1263/1/0#105&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_works_of_Horace/Book_upon_the_Art_of_Poetry&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0004%3Acard%3D1577" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15963" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4801" RevisionGUID="03ea0e0c-c9af-46fc-b0a9-afbb8af0389d" CreationDate="2018-04-24T19:38:36.883" UserId="2892" Comment="added 115 characters in body" Text="After some searching, I found the reference I was looking for:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was [Harpagus][1], and it was an &quot;actual event&quot; written up by Herodotus. [Source [Garden History Reference Encyclopedia][2]]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wiki, quoting Burkert (*Homo Necans*) states that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Herodotus accounts for the turn of Harpagus' support to a version of the cannibal feast of Thyestes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;*Gee, my memory is still really really sharp when it comes to the details of unfoldings.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Thank you everyone!*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harpagus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://goo.gl/kSRs9A" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15964" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4801" RevisionGUID="ffcb9ad5-d4c1-4eaa-a8cc-838e94639be4" CreationDate="2018-04-24T19:48:28.320" UserId="2892" Comment="added 115 characters in body" Text="After some searching, I found the reference I was looking for:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was [Harpagus][1], and it was an &quot;actual event&quot; written up by Herodotus. [Source [Garden History Reference Encyclopedia][2]]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wiki, quoting Burkert (*[Homo Necans][3]*) states that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Herodotus accounts for the turn of Harpagus' support to a version of the cannibal feast of Thyestes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See: Herodotus, [*The Histories*, 111 ff.][4] and [Herodotus: Book One][5]; Early History of Persia (reed.edu) for a guide.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;*Gee, my memory is still really really sharp when it comes to the details of unfoldings.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Thank you everyone!*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harpagus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://goo.gl/kSRs9A&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_Necans&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D111%3Asection%3D1&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.reed.edu/humanities/Hum110/Hdt/Hdt1.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15965" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4802" RevisionGUID="93daa7b2-bfed-4372-834b-7db99a96efc9" CreationDate="2018-04-24T19:56:09.713" UserId="2892" Text="Apollodorus also has a [Catalogue of Ships][1] at Troy in the Bibliotheca.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*(I'm going to need to do some digging to find the chapter, but it should be available on Perseus.  I'm amend when I have the link.)*  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalogue_of_Ships" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15966" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4802" RevisionGUID="fe021084-9cf4-4b19-9100-713a8f72d5d3" CreationDate="2018-04-24T20:05:14.033" UserId="2892" Comment="added 157 characters in body" Text="Apollodorus also has a [Catalogue of Ships][1] at Troy in the Epitome of the Bibliotheca ([E.3.11 ff.][2])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You may also be interested in this paper: *[A Programmatic Function of the Iliadic Catalogue of Ships][3]*  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalogue_of_Ships&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DEpitome%3Abook%3DE%3Achapter%3D3%3Asection%3D11&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://classics.ufl.edu/files/05_HomericContext_Marks_TCSV.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15967" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4776" RevisionGUID="bddd3fc0-f1f6-4ff8-b91c-faead2faaab3" CreationDate="2018-04-24T21:45:59.617" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 241 characters in body" Text="Last year, I was handed a worksheet. It was an excerpt of an autobiography, if I recall correctly. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One part I remember in particular involved Heracles, that he was given a choice between Duty and Pleasure and was happy he picked Duty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can anyone recall a version a the Myth like this?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15968" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4803" RevisionGUID="e44876e3-6e7a-4955-b716-6d3837c7fa84" CreationDate="2018-04-24T21:56:36.513" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="A legend holds that Jesus visited several places in what are now Cornwall and Somerset in England. What is the origin of this legend?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15969" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4803" RevisionGUID="e44876e3-6e7a-4955-b716-6d3837c7fa84" CreationDate="2018-04-24T21:56:36.513" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="What is the origin of the legend that Jesus visited what are now Cornwall and Somerset in England?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15970" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4803" RevisionGUID="e44876e3-6e7a-4955-b716-6d3837c7fa84" CreationDate="2018-04-24T21:56:36.513" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="|christianity|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15975" PostHistoryTypeId="12" PostId="4727" RevisionGUID="64c7cfe1-afd3-4fb1-afe2-bad3dddc655c" CreationDate="2018-04-25T14:14:18.663" UserId="57" Comment="via Vote" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:666,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;andejons&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;yannis&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="15976" PostHistoryTypeId="13" PostId="4727" RevisionGUID="3393d9c1-1d31-4111-a48f-2696aa10a44b" CreationDate="2018-04-25T14:14:25.937" UserId="57" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;yannis&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="15977" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4776" RevisionGUID="ececb3bf-f158-4d42-aa9b-5a27e31f9133" CreationDate="2018-04-25T15:03:46.830" UserId="4271" Comment="a previous edit deletion confused later choice wording" Text="Last year, I was handed a worksheet. It was an excerpt of an autobiography, if I recall correctly. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One part I remember in particular involved Heracles, that he was given a choice between Duty and Pleasure.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can anyone recall a version a the Myth like this?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15978" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4805" RevisionGUID="c12966be-e2ae-48e1-a17a-14b0db50432e" CreationDate="2018-04-25T17:50:09.490" UserId="2892" Text="This is a soft answer, because I'm relying solely on wikipedia, but the underlying process I used may be helpful.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Boinayel ... [was] the gods of rain&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Wiki][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My reasoning process was: *Horizontal water?  What constitutes vertical water?*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My first thought was waterfalls, so I searched for a Taíno waterfall god.  Didn't find that, but found a mention of a gods of rain.  Rain can be understood as vertical water.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This may be the root of the distinction, but more research is required to answer more definitively. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ta%C3%ADno#Spirituality" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15979" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4806" RevisionGUID="5044fc11-bda3-42a7-b37e-298ba224e804" CreationDate="2018-04-25T18:50:23.173" UserId="4985" Text="There was none&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is specifically noted in this passage from wikipedia that there is doubt as to whether the event is canonical mythology or simply a creation of Homer to add literary weight to Achilles pleas with his mother:&#xD;&#xA;From the Wikipedia article around the goddess Thetis who is Achilles mother&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thetis&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Quintus of Smyrna, recalling this passage, does write that Thetis once released Zeus from chains; but there is no other reference to this rebellion among the Olympians, and some readers, such as M. M. Willcock,[5] have understood the episode as an ad hoc invention of Homer's to support Achilles' request that his mother intervene with Zeus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As such the primary source we have for the story is the Illiad itself which mentioned the pleas of Achilles in Book one from which the story is derived&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Often I heard you, in my father’s halls, claim proudly that you alone of the immortals saved Zeus, son of Cronos, lord of the storm, from a vile fate when those other Olympians, Hera, Poseidon, and Pallas Athene, planned to bind him fast. Goddess, you swiftly summoned, to high Olympus, the hundred-handed monster whom gods call Briareus, and men Aegaeon, mightier than his father Poseidon; and you saved Zeus from those bonds. For Briareus seated himself, in his strength, beside that son of Cronos, and the sacred gods in fear left Zeus alone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We also see references made in the Illiad in Book 7 to the fact that Poseidon and Apollo built the walls, not however that this was specifically as punishment for their crimes noted earlier:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Have you seen how the long-haired Greeks are again behaving, building a wall to guard the ships, with a ditch around it, and not a single sacrifice to the gods? Surely its fame will reach to the ends of dawn, and men will forget the wall that I and Phoebus Apollo toiled to build for that warrior Laomedon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no direct reference in the Illiad to a punishment directed toward Athena from Zeus as a consequence of her actions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the end of it all Athena was born from Zeus directly and was well known as his favorite   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athena&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Athena is &quot;born&quot; from Zeus's forehead as a result of him having swallowed her mother Metis, as he grasps the clothing of Eileithyia on the right; black-figured amphora, 550–525 BC, Louvre.&#xD;&#xA;Although Athena appears before Zeus at Knossos—in Linear B, as , a-ta-na po-ti-ni-ja, &quot;Mistress Athena&quot;[12][11]—in the Classical Olympian pantheon, Athena was remade as the favourite daughter of Zeus, born fully armed from his forehead.[Notes 9] The story of her birth comes in several versions.[74] In the version recounted by Hesiod in his Theogony, Zeus lay with Metis, the goddess of crafty thought and wisdom,[75] but he immediately feared the consequences[75] because Gaia and Ouranos had prophesized that Metis would bear children wiser than he himself.[76] In order to prevent this, Zeus swallowed Metis,[77] but it was too late because Metis had already conceived.[77][78][Notes 10]&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Eventually Zeus experienced an enormous headache;[79] Prometheus, Hephaestus, Hermes, Ares, or Palaemon (depending on the sources examined)[80] cleaved Zeus’ head with the double-headed Minoan axe, the labrys.[80] Athena leaped from Zeus's head, fully grown and armed,[80] with a shout—&quot;and pealed to the broad sky her clarion cry of war. And Ouranos trembled to hear, and Mother Gaia…&quot;[81] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is therefore commonly taken that while punishments could have been meted out to the other gods for their transgressions that Athena was forgiven." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15981" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4807" RevisionGUID="dfcae53d-c25d-4ee4-9195-415ef51449d7" CreationDate="2018-04-25T20:38:05.130" UserId="2892" Text="I don't have sufficient depth of knowledge of Shinto to definitively answer from that perspective, but the virtues (and vices) will surely reflect cultural mores. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There may be an element similar to Taoist thought, re: yin/yang, in that nature spirits (unlike Buddhist saints) are unlikely to be entirely &quot;good&quot; or &quot;evil&quot;. In the [yin/yang symbol][1], the &quot;eyes of the tadpoles&quot; are the opposite colors, showing that yin has some yang and visa versa.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The scope of what a kami seems a bit wider than Nymphs, though Nymphs would certainly be a valid reference.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greek daimōn ([δαίμων][2]*)[ \[dæmon][3] in Latin], seems much closer to the concept of kami in that these entities are understood as forces of nature (nature spirits), could be the souls of long dead heroes from the Golden Age, or even abstract concepts.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia has a useful description related to the virtue/vice question:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The [Hellenistic][4] Greeks divided daemons into good and evil categories: agathodaímōn ([ἀγαθοδαίμων][5] &quot;noble spirit&quot;), from agathós ([ἀγαθός][6] &quot;good, brave, noble, moral, lucky, useful&quot;), and kakodaímōn ([κακοδαίμων][7] &quot;malevolent spirit&quot;), from kakós ([κακός][8] &quot;bad, evil&quot;). &#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Wikipedia][9] [Perseus links added]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also worth noting that &quot;good&quot; and &quot;bad&quot; probably didn't have the same absolute qualities in polytheistic, agricultural societies, which tend to be preoccupied with nature due to the importance of the natural cycles on planting and harvesting.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Ddai%2Fmwn&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aentry%3Ddaemon1&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic_period&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Da)gaqodai%2Fmwn&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=agaqos&amp;la=greek#Perseus:text:1999.04.0072:entry=a)gaqo/s-contents&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkakodai%2Fmwn&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=kakos&amp;la=greek#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemon_(classical_mythology)#Categories" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15982" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4808" RevisionGUID="3aa80b2a-4ea9-4712-84da-812d1e51bba8" CreationDate="2018-04-26T01:44:48.323" UserId="4023" Text="In Hesiod's *Theogony* Cerberus was the offspring of Echidna and Typhon (on the other hand, Hesiod did call him fifty-headed, so). To back this story up, note that Euphorion of Chalcis described him as having eyes that flashed like the volcanic Mount Etna. Why would this back anything up? Because traditionally, Typhon either resided in Tartarus *or* was buried under Mt. Etna, and his occasional struggles to get free of his prison were volcanic eruptions. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So we therefore have that Cerberus was the offspring of Echidna and Typhon. From here there are really no clues that indicate how it got to Hades, but I have an educated guess or two. If Typhon was stuck in Tartarus, then Hades probably saw Cerberus and fetched him for his own use. Another possibility: Cerberus wasn't the only multi-headed guard dog born of Echidna; the other, Orthrus, guarded the cattle of Geryon, so perhaps Hades was tipped off to the existence of multiheaded guard dogs by Orthrus." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15983" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4809" RevisionGUID="9b8d7882-d860-4728-9f25-39e837eb679b" CreationDate="2018-04-26T02:26:17.137" UserId="4271" Text="A sun-shower is when it rained while the sun is shining.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Japanese culture/Shinto Mythology, sun-showers were believed to be the result of two Kitsune (fox spirits) getting married. It was viewed as good luck.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do any other cultures/Mythologies express their views on sun-showers?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15984" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4809" RevisionGUID="9b8d7882-d860-4728-9f25-39e837eb679b" CreationDate="2018-04-26T02:26:17.137" UserId="4271" Text="How were sun-showers viewed?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15985" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4809" RevisionGUID="9b8d7882-d860-4728-9f25-39e837eb679b" CreationDate="2018-04-26T02:26:17.137" UserId="4271" Text="|comparative|shinto|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15986" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4810" RevisionGUID="73d46f9c-4dc5-4abc-8c2c-924d2f228126" CreationDate="2018-04-26T09:15:34.067" UserId="2682" Text="[![Bertel Thorvaldsen's Cupid Leading Cerberus][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;In 1828 the Danish sculptor Albert Bertel Thorvaldsen made this piece (above), entitled *Cupid Leading Cerberus*. On his website the [Greek Mythology Link](http://www.maicar.com/GML/000Iconography/Cerberus/slides/9130.html), Carlos Parada has labelled this picture: &quot;Cupid in the Underworld, as the Tamer of Cerberus, with Pluto’s Pitchfork&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This artwork of Thorvaldsen does not seem to be based on any ancient myth but it does present what might be the oldest artistic impression of the monster's origin as a watchdog beyond the plain mention of Cerberus' parents. (I had never thought about the hound as a puppy before I saw this image. Cute as it might be, notice that the dog's tail is actually a furry snake!) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are numerous ways in which one could interpret the piece, but an especially literal one would be to appeal to the saying &quot;Love conquers all&quot; (a love story being yet another thing with which I would not have thought to associate the monster dog). On the other hand there's potential here for a story about how the monster used to be Cupid's dog when they were both little. That of course is all otherwise modern fan-fiction.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his *Fall of Troy*, Quintus Smyrnaeus mentions Cerberus' birthplace as a dark, rocky cavern &quot;close to the border of eternal Night&quot;. In Hesiod's *Theogony*, Night lives close to the pit of Tartarus, which is in the Underworld. Quintus' description of Night is itself an allusion to the *Theogony*, wherein Hesiod has the three Gorgons living someplace on the border of the earth-encircling river Oceanus &quot;in the frontier land towards Night&quot; near where the Hesperides are located. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cerberus has no other role in the mythology whatsoever. He is always mentioned in connection with his guard-dog duty and either with his master Hades/Pluto or with the realm of the dead. He has a number of monstrous siblings (some of whom occur in different authors as his uncles/aunts or nephews/nieces) occupying similar positions as guardians posted by or weapons used by the gods. Presumably because of [close familial ties](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/4695/2682) shared with the creatures, the gods simply have ease of access to these beasts, whom they use as mere pets, but seldom is any explanation given of the source of these pets aside from their pedigrees. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice, for example, how the war-god Ares sends a sleepless dragon to his devotee King Aeetes of Colchis so that it can guard the Golden Fleece for him in Ares' sacred grove. According to Hyginus this dragon is Cerberus' brother; we are not told how Ares came into the possession of this creature. Same with the Sphinx (sister or niece [or both] of Cerberus), sent by Ares, Hera, Dionysus or Hades to terrorise the city of Thebes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cerberus' uncle or brother Ladon, another sleepless dragon, was posted by Hera to guard her gardens in Africa. The Hydra, yet another dragon relative of Cerberus, was reared by Hera in the hope that it would grow up to one day kill Heracles [Hercules]. Hera reared the Nemean Lion (also a relative) with the same agenda. The giant eagle (or hawk or vulture) which regularly fed on the liver of the Titan Prometheus was sent by Zeus to do this and was a brother of the hound of Hades as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A family member that Cerberus is especially well-known for having is his brother Orthrus (or Orthus), the two-headed sheepdog of the triple-bodied giant warrior Geryones. Apart from a myth-rationalisation by Palaephatus, there is no story which places these two dogs together. There is, however, one character who loosely connects the two, and who perhaps interacted with both guard-dogs on a regular basis, and that is Menoetes, the herdsman of Hades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Menoetes was friends with Geryones, whose pasture was adjacent to his. Geryones, a red ogre with a herd of red cattle, living on the island of Erytheia, &quot;Red,&quot; represented dusk and lived on the edge of Evening, near Sunset, like the Gorgons (one of whom, Medusa, was Geryones' grandmother) and the Hesperides (Evening's Daughters), by the place where Cerberus was born (or hatched?) on the border of the Underworld. Menoetes lived beyond this borderland, in the darkness of Hades, with *his* herds of sable-*black* cattle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was Menoetes who reported to Geryones that Heracles was stealing his cattle, whereupon Geryones rushed to protect his property and ended up getting killed by the thief, together with his dog Orthrus and his own herdsman the giant Eurytion.   &#xD;&#xA;[![Euphronius' Orthrus dead][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;Later on, when Heracles visits the Underworld to fetch Cerberus, and, unprovoked, he slaughters one of Hades' cattle, Menoetes gets into a fight with him and almost dies after Heracles breaks his ribs. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This borderland herdsman Menoetes, who seems to straddle both worlds, that of the living and that of the dead, between Evening and &quot;eternal&quot; Night, might have had something to do with the dogs getting to their respective owners in the first place. That is purely conjectural, though, since, as you say, it simply is not mentioned how the Underworld hound first acquired his post.        &#xD;&#xA;       &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/bz1zD.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/rthdf.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15987" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4811" RevisionGUID="11d7ee5f-f000-46ce-a336-1e1575495026" CreationDate="2018-04-26T09:54:02.550" UserId="2696" Text="There are a range of sources suggesting Jesus came to England as a young man with his uncle, Joseph of Arimathea, who was a wealthy merchant and tin trader. Cornwall, at the time was prominent in the tin mining trade, and routes were well known and common between the Mediterranean and Britain. The oral tradition in Somerset, Gloucestershire and Ireland dates from early history there, but is first written about in the Life of St Dunstan, at the end of the 10th century.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;His visit was popularised in a poem by William Blake in the early 19th century, that was made into the hymn, Jerusalem, in the 20th century.&#xD;&#xA;Glastonbury has the myth of the very first church built above ground in the world, verified by a bishop in the 6th century as being built not by man but by holy hands. Also in Glastonbury is the Glastonbury Thorn Tree, which legend says was Jesus' staff that flowered once planted.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A bit more detail from [Sacred Connections][1]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Walter de M. Seaman writes: “There are those among the older folk of the district of St. Just-in- Roseland, near Place Manor, who used to repeat the age-old belief ‘Christ came in a ship and anchored in St. Just Creek,’ and across the waters of the Fal at Falmouth, this odd little story was brought to light: Joseph of Arimathea and the young lad Jesus from Nazareth, landed at the Strand (now the town quay), crossed the stream and went up Smithick Hill…. In the far West of Cornwall, there are or were two rich lodes (or veins) of tin. One was named Corpus Christi (the body of Christ) and the other Wheal Jesus. Wheal is the old Cornish word for mine…. It is interesting in this connection to discover that East Looe has as its coat of arms a ship bringing (so it is thought) Joseph and the young Jesus to Cornwall. This is portrayed on the front of the old Guildhall. A mile off Looe is St. George’s Island. Some of the older folk of the district were heard to say that when they were children, they’d been told by their parents and grandparents that Joseph and the young Jesus had landed on this island.” (The Dawn of Christianity in the West, 1993)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://sacredconnections.co.uk/index.php/christ-mission-in-britain/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15988" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4812" RevisionGUID="9bfd245d-c065-4286-bec9-8adfef31a66e" CreationDate="2018-04-26T10:35:42.443" UserId="5009" Text="Unfortunately, the actual answer is... there is no answer. The reason being, it is like all myths that have been adapted, changed, added to, corrupted and retold over a long period of time - the story becomes incoherent and cannot be reconciled in a manner which would make a sensible narrative.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sisters were a later addition to a myth that had been around for centuries. Another incoherent part of the story that one might use as an example is the fact that it is often the Parthenon that is claimed as the temple in which Medusa served. However, the original Medusa myths predate the construction of the Parthenon by centuries. Remember, it was supposedly Perseus (Ruler of Mycenae, around 1300 BCE) that ended her life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sorry, that won't be the answer you are probably hoping to hear... but it IS the correct answer :)&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15989" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4794" RevisionGUID="54ac2f38-6762-4664-8455-f16a9b583473" CreationDate="2018-04-26T11:29:51.663" UserId="2807" Comment="Fixed small typo" Text="Is there a Japanese god or goddess of tea? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I’ve read that Inari is a god of various things, such as rice, sake, and tea... But is there a deity that is god of tea in particular?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15990" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4794" RevisionGUID="54ac2f38-6762-4664-8455-f16a9b583473" CreationDate="2018-04-26T11:29:51.663" Comment="Proposed by 2807 approved by 2892, 666 edit id of 1631" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15991" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4809" RevisionGUID="c730e926-abdb-4f9a-bd91-b9402b5ecb44" CreationDate="2018-04-26T15:07:27.523" UserId="4271" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="A sun-shower is when it rains while the sun is shining.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Japanese culture/Shinto Mythology, sun-showers were believed to be the result of two Kitsune (fox spirits) getting married. It was viewed as good luck.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do any other cultures/Mythologies express their views on sun-showers?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15992" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4813" RevisionGUID="5e66b7e6-a0f7-44b7-a387-42ab683a2518" CreationDate="2018-04-26T18:08:02.817" UserId="4379" Text="For example, Semitic Astarte/Babylonian Ishtar, Hittite Shaushka, Slavic Radegast, Irish Anann, etc. In studying mythology and folklore, I can't help that violence and sex are often associated and I can't help but suspect that there's a deeper meaning. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15993" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4813" RevisionGUID="5e66b7e6-a0f7-44b7-a387-42ab683a2518" CreationDate="2018-04-26T18:08:02.817" UserId="4379" Text="Why are the domains of sexuality and fertility commonly associated with battle &amp; war?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15994" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4813" RevisionGUID="5e66b7e6-a0f7-44b7-a387-42ab683a2518" CreationDate="2018-04-26T18:08:02.817" UserId="4379" Text="|comparative|folklore|babylonian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15995" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4814" RevisionGUID="d269f0b5-2508-4361-8e28-da21243a160a" CreationDate="2018-04-26T19:24:37.617" UserId="2892" Text="*This answer will be evolving as I run down more suitable references, and add examples, but just to quickly give you a lead on this perceptive question:*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I wouldn't necessarily make the association with war, but specifically with death, and even violent death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - This falls under the concept of the [Hieros Gamos][1] (ἱερὸς γάμος), the &quot;Sacred&quot; or &quot;Great Marriage&quot; between the Goddess and her consort.  This often results in death for the consort. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[ἱερὸς][2] has a range of meanings related to divine power, but also including sacrificial victims&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[γάμος][3] is a word for marriage or wedding.  [III. ἱερὸς γ. ritual marriage]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;The scholarship on this has been evolving, and uncertainty was injected by the the Golden Bough, which although no longer considered reliable, nevertheless had a profound influence on modern and post-modern literature, resulting in a sort of contemporary mythologization of [Frazer's thesis][4].  Regardless, his underlying insight seems to hold in that we do see these cycles of sex &amp; death in regard to union with various goddesses going back to the earliest surviving texts, as you note.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hieros_gamos&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Di(ero%2Fs&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dga%2Fmos&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Bough#Summary" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15996" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4814" RevisionGUID="32bbeaba-3ee7-4678-b300-598be93cf45c" CreationDate="2018-04-26T19:33:35.737" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 16 characters in body" Text="*This answer will be evolving as I run down more suitable references, and add examples, but just to quickly give you a lead on this perceptive question:*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I wouldn't necessarily make the association with war, but specifically with death, and even violent death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - This falls under the concept of the [Hieros Gamos][1] (ἱερὸς γάμος), the &quot;Sacred&quot; or &quot;Great Marriage&quot; between the Goddess and her consort.  This often results in death for the consort. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[ἱερὸς][2] has a range of meanings related to divine power, but also including sacrificial victims&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[γάμος][3] is a word for marriage or wedding.  [III. ἱερὸς γ. ritual marriage]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;The scholarship on this has been evolving, and uncertainty was injected by the the Golden Bough, which although no longer considered reliable, nevertheless had a profound influence on modern literature, resulting in a sort of contemporary mythologization of [Frazer's thesis][4].  Regardless, his underlying insight seems to hold in that we do see these cycles of sex &amp; death in regard to union with various goddesses going back to the earliest surviving texts, as you note.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Just for fun: Gene Wolfe wrote a novel on this subject called [There Are Doors][5].*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hieros_gamos&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Di(ero%2Fs&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dga%2Fmos&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Bough#Summary&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_Are_Doors" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15997" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4814" RevisionGUID="5cccd291-d4d7-4349-8fb5-7a1c56285316" CreationDate="2018-04-26T21:16:41.037" UserId="2892" Comment="added 932 characters in body" Text="*This answer will be evolving as I run down more suitable references, and add examples, but just to quickly give you a lead on this perceptive question:*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I wouldn't necessarily make the association with war, but specifically with death, and even violent death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - This falls under the concept of the [Hieros Gamos][1] (ἱερὸς γάμος), the &quot;Sacred&quot; or &quot;Great Marriage&quot; between the Goddess and her consort.  This often results in death for the consort.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[ἱερὸς][2] has a range of meanings related to divine power, but also including sacrificial victims&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[γάμος][3] is a word for marriage or wedding.  [III. ἱερὸς γ. ritual marriage]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In terms of the why the association, it likely has to do with the cycle of life. &#xD;&#xA; Where earth is the Great Goddess, from whose womb comes all life, so all living return to her embrace when they shuffle off this mortal coil. Death itself can be understood as the Great Marriage, returning to the embrace of the mother goddess.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It also likely has to do with the process of sowing and reaping.  Seed is planted in the spring.  Crops grow and ripen.  When they are in the fullness of growth, they are cut down, and by this reaping humans are sustained.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Death is not necessarily eternal.  After the winter, the process begins again and the cycle repeats.  Thus, some dying gods are resurrected, and some goddess-slain mortals are immortalized in the stars.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Essentially, death and life are inextricably linked, and you can't have one without the other.  Ritual marriage (sacrifice) in this context is a commemoration.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;*The scholarship on this has been evolving, and uncertainty was injected by the the Golden Bough, which although no longer considered reliable, nevertheless had a profound influence on modern literature, resulting in a sort of contemporary mythologization of [Frazer's thesis][4].  Regardless, his underlying insight seems to hold in that we do see these cycles of sex &amp; death in regard to union with various goddesses going back to the earliest surviving texts, as you note.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Just for fun: Gene Wolfe wrote a novel on this subject called [There Are Doors][5].*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hieros_gamos&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Di(ero%2Fs&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dga%2Fmos&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Bough#Summary&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_Are_Doors" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15998" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4810" RevisionGUID="cb712f0f-0264-47f1-b240-164b8b9a6476" CreationDate="2018-04-26T21:59:16.137" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; tweaked info" Text="[![Bertel Thorvaldsen's Cupid Leading Cerberus][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;In 1828 the Danish sculptor Albert Bertel Thorvaldsen made this piece (above), entitled *Cupid Leading Cerberus*. On his website the [Greek Mythology Link](http://www.maicar.com/GML/000Iconography/Cerberus/slides/9130.html), Carlos Parada has labelled this picture: &quot;Cupid in the Underworld, as the Tamer of Cerberus, with Pluto’s Pitchfork&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This artwork of Thorvaldsen does not seem to be based on any ancient myth but it does present what might be the oldest artistic impression of the monster's origin as a watchdog beyond the plain mention of Cerberus' parents. (I had never thought about the hound as a puppy before I saw this image. Cute as it might be, notice that the dog's tail is actually a furry snake!) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are numerous ways in which one could interpret the piece, but an especially literal one would be to appeal to the saying &quot;Love conquers all&quot; (a love story being yet another thing with which I would not have thought to associate the monster dog). On the other hand there's potential here for a story about how the monster used to be Cupid's dog when they were both little. That of course is all otherwise modern fan-fiction.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his *Fall of Troy*, Quintus Smyrnaeus mentions Cerberus' birthplace as a dark, rocky cavern &quot;close to the border of eternal Night&quot;. In Hesiod's *Theogony*, Night lives close to the pit of Tartarus, which is in the Underworld. Quintus' description of Night is itself an allusion to the *Theogony*, wherein Hesiod has the three Gorgons living someplace on the border of the earth-encircling river Oceanus &quot;in the frontier land towards Night&quot; near where the Hesperides are located. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cerberus has no other role in the mythology whatsoever. He is always mentioned in connection with his guard-dog duty and either with his master Hades/Pluto or with the realm of the dead. He has a number of monstrous siblings (some of whom occur in different authors as his uncles/aunts or nephews/nieces) occupying similar positions as guardians posted by—or as *weapons* used by—the gods. Presumably because of [close family ties](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/4695/2682) shared by the deities with the creatures, the gods simply have ease of access to these beasts, whom they use as mere pets, but seldom is any explanation given of the source of these pets aside from their pedigrees. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice, for example, how the war-god Ares sends a sleepless dragon to his devotee King Aeetes of Colchis so that it can guard the Golden Fleece for him in Ares' sacred grove. According to Hyginus this dragon is Cerberus' brother; we are not told how Ares came into the possession of this creature. Same with the Sphinx (sister or niece [or both] of Cerberus), sent by Ares, Hera, Dionysus or Hades to terrorise the city of Thebes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cerberus' uncle or brother Ladon, another sleepless dragon, was posted by Hera to watch over her gardens in Africa. The Hydra, yet another dragon relative of Cerberus, was reared by Hera in the hope that it would grow up to one day kill Heracles [Hercules]. Hera reared the Nemean Lion (also a relative) with the same agenda. The giant eagle (or hawk or vulture) which regularly fed on the liver of the Titan Prometheus was sent by Zeus to do this and was a brother of the hound of Hades as well. Like Ladon and the Hydra, it too was slain by Heracles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A family member that Cerberus is especially well-known for having is his brother Orthrus (or Orthus), the two-headed sheepdog of the triple-bodied giant warrior Geryones. Apart from a myth-rationalisation by Palaephatus, there is no story which places these two dogs together. There is, however, one character who loosely connects the two, and who perhaps interacted with both guard-dogs on a regular basis, and that is Menoetes, the herdsman of Hades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Menoetes was friends with Geryones, whose pasture was adjacent to his. Geryones, a red ogre with a herd of red cattle, living on the island of Erytheia, &quot;Red,&quot; represented dusk and lived on the edge of Evening, near Sunset, like the Gorgons (one of whom, Medusa, was Geryones' grandmother) and the Hesperides (Evening's Daughters), by the place where Cerberus was born (or hatched?) on the boundary of the Underworld (a threshold which he later blockades). Menoetes lived beyond this borderland, in the nocturnal darkness of the deadlands, with *his* herds of sable-*black* cattle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was Menoetes who reported to Geryones that Heracles was stealing his cattle, whereupon Geryones rushed to protect his property and ended up getting killed by the thief, together with his dog Orthrus and his own herdsman the giant Eurytion.   &#xD;&#xA;[![Euphronius' Orthrus dead][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;Later on, when Heracles visited the Underworld to fetch Cerberus, and, unprovoked, he slaughtered one of Hades' cattle, Menoetes got into a fight with him and almost died after Heracles broke his ribs. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This borderland herdsman Menoetes, who seems to straddle both worlds, that of the living and that of the dead, between Evening and &quot;eternal&quot; Night, might have had something to do with the dogs getting to their respective owners in the first place. That is purely conjectural, though, since, as you say, it simply is not mentioned how the Underworld hound first acquired his post.        &#xD;&#xA;       &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/bz1zD.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/rthdf.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="15999" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4815" RevisionGUID="87e1c52a-f697-4c4c-9cf2-23fc28f08165" CreationDate="2018-04-26T22:15:19.007" UserId="2807" Text="I found a small example in the Wikipedia article for [Achilles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles), under the section [Achilles, Ajax and a game of *petteia*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles#Achilles,_Ajax_and_a_game_of_petteia):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Numerous paintings on pottery have suggested a tale **not mentioned in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the literary traditions**. At some point in the war, Achilles and Ajax&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were playing a board game (petteia). They were absorbed in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; game and oblivious to the surrounding battle. The Trojans attacked&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and reached the heroes, who were saved only by an intervention of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Athena.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's a Wikipedia category for these paintings: [Achilles and Ajax playing](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Achilles_and_Ajax_playing).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Amphora by Exekias. Achilles and Ajax playing a game.][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Achilles and Ajax playing a game, detail of an amphora by Exekias. Source: [Wikipedia](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Akhilleus_Aias_MGEt_16757.jpg).&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From Wikipedia article on [Exekias](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exekias#Themes), the painter:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apart from the selection of this very intimate, seemingly relaxed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; scene as a symbol for the Trojan War, this vase-painting also&#xD;&#xA;&gt; showcases the talent of Exekias as an artist: the figures of both&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Achilles and Ajax are decorated with fine incised details, showing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; elaborate textile patterns and almost every hair in place.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Interestingly, there is no extant literary source that is known to have circulated in the sixth century BC in Athens regarding a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; narrative involving Ajax and Achilles playing a board game. Exekias&#xD;&#xA;&gt; may have drawn his inspiration for this innovative composition from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; local oral bardic traditions regarding the Trojan War, which may have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; developed during his lifetime in the cultural context of sixth century&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Athens.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More of an anecdote than a full answer, so I'm still interested in anything you can add.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MmS2o.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16001" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4816" RevisionGUID="9ea0eaa1-bbc1-4ada-b6ba-c7adc7d87b31" CreationDate="2018-04-27T11:30:49.727" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="Angel Merkel, chancellor of Germany, is known for using a distinctive hand gesture. Does the [Merkel Rhombus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkel-Raute) (*Merkel-Raute*), which has been [heavily used by the Christian Democratic party in its electoral campaigning](https://www.theguardian.com/world/german-elections-blog-2013/2013/sep/03/angela-merkel-diamond-german-election-campaign), have any folk-historical or other oral-traditional background?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/4r1kj.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16002" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4816" RevisionGUID="9ea0eaa1-bbc1-4ada-b6ba-c7adc7d87b31" CreationDate="2018-04-27T11:30:49.727" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="Does Angel Merkel's use of her distinctive &quot;diamond&quot; hand gesture have any folk-historical or other oral-traditional background?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16003" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4816" RevisionGUID="9ea0eaa1-bbc1-4ada-b6ba-c7adc7d87b31" CreationDate="2018-04-27T11:30:49.727" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="|untagged|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16004" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4817" RevisionGUID="d3bd24ea-77a1-408d-a619-e4fdf3a27dd9" CreationDate="2018-04-27T15:03:32.220" UserId="53" Text="I grew up in Glastonbury and have been brought up with the large number of legends surrounding the town.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are several specific legends regarding the life of Jesus in Glastonbury between the ages of 12 and 30.  He was said to have been brought there for his own safety by his uncle Joseph of Arimathea.  While in the town he learnt carpentry, the countryside around Glastonbury having long been a centre of willow growing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some also say that he worked with the trees known as Gog and Magog which are two ancient oaks that survive today near the village of Wick, just outside Glastonbury and are said to be in excess of 2000 years old.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After the crucifixion, Joseph of Arimathea returned with the Holy Grail to Glastonbury.  This gives us the legend that he rested upon Wearyall Hill before entering the town.  At this time he stuck his staff into the ground and, miraculously, by morning it had sprouted.  The Holy Thorn still blossoms at Christmas every year and blossoms from it are taken to the Queen on Christmas day to decorate her table at Christmas Dinner.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Holy Grail brought by Joseph of Arimathea was lost for many centuries.  But a fragment of an olive wood cup was found in the Chalice Well at the foot of the Tor.  Some say that this is the Grail.  Local legend has it that this cup is now kept in private hands and that can be viewed by those who are worthy.  Although local legend does not agree on exactly where it can be found.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In June each year, there are pilgrimages to the town of Glastonbury by both the Roman Catholic and Church of England.  These pilgrimages commemorate the legend.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are of course many legends regarding King Arthur in Glastonbury.  One of which is that he chose the Isle of Avalon (the land around Glastonbury Tor) for the location of Camelot due to its association with Jesus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I could go on. For example Mary Caine's books about the Glastonbury Zodiac &quot;as above, so below&quot;.  A geomantic theory stating that the ground itself reflects the stars above in the hills, rivers and ancient trackways around the town.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I make no claim that any of these legends have any basis in fact.  I have just always found it fascinating that so many exist about the one place.  There are any number of books and websites that will give you more information regarding these legends, including their own histories and supposed derivations.  Searching them out is a fascinating pastime." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16005" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4817" RevisionGUID="61ce736b-0158-4c17-b99a-22f9ee575248" CreationDate="2018-04-27T15:16:43.277" UserId="53" Comment="Added reference to Abbey" Text="I grew up in Glastonbury and have been brought up with the large number of legends surrounding the town.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are several specific legends regarding the life of Jesus in Glastonbury between the ages of 12 and 30.  He was said to have been brought there for his own safety by his uncle Joseph of Arimathea.  While in the town he learnt carpentry, the countryside around Glastonbury having long been a centre of willow growing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some also say that he worked with the trees known as Gog and Magog which are two ancient oaks that survive today near the village of Wick, just outside Glastonbury and are said to be in excess of 2000 years old.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After the crucifixion, Joseph of Arimathea returned with the Holy Grail to Glastonbury.  This gives us the legend that he rested upon Wearyall Hill before entering the town.  At this time he stuck his staff into the ground and, miraculously, by morning it had sprouted.  The Holy Thorn still blossoms at Christmas every year and blossoms from it are taken to the Queen on Christmas day to decorate her table at Christmas Dinner.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Holy Grail brought by Joseph of Arimathea was lost for many centuries.  But a fragment of an olive wood cup was found in the Chalice Well at the foot of the Tor.  Some say that this is the Grail.  Local legend has it that this cup is now kept in private hands and that can be viewed by those who are worthy.  Although local legend does not agree on exactly where it can be found.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In June each year, there are pilgrimages to the town of Glastonbury by both the Roman Catholic and Church of England.  These pilgrimages commemorate the legend.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are of course many legends regarding King Arthur in Glastonbury.  One of which is that he chose the Isle of Avalon (the land around Glastonbury Tor) for the location of Camelot due to its association with Jesus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I could go on. For example Mary Caine's books about the Glastonbury Zodiac &quot;as above, so below&quot;.  A geomantic theory stating that the ground itself reflects the stars above in the hills, rivers and ancient trackways around the town.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I make no claim that any of these legends have any basis in fact - after all, remember that the monks of Glastonbury Abbey were masters at making money and some mediaeval marketing.  I have just always found it fascinating that so many exist about the one place.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are any number of books and websites that will give you more information regarding these legends, including their own histories and supposed derivations.  Searching them out is a fascinating pastime." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16009" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4819" RevisionGUID="497e16e5-71f6-4715-aab7-17382e18f0ff" CreationDate="2018-04-27T16:41:29.197" UserId="2807" Text="Theoi.com has a nice article about [Olympos](http://www.theoi.com/Kosmos/Olympos.html), citing as main source Homer's *Iliad*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It was essentially an ancient akropolis--a fortified hill-top and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; palace complex--located just below the peaks of Mount Olympos. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; golden gates of the heavenly fortress were guarded by the three Horai&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Horae) and it contained the palace of Zeus, lesser palaces for the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; other gods, and stables for the immortal horses. The buildings were&#xD;&#xA;&gt; built of stone with bronze foundations and were surrounded by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cloistered courtyards with golden pavements.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The main structure was the palace of Zeus. It had a fairly simple&#xD;&#xA;&gt; layout--as was typical of ancient Greek palaces--with a central hall,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; private bedchambers and storage rooms. The golden-floored hall served&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as both a council chamber and feast-hall for the Olympian gods and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; provided them an expansive view of the world below allowing them to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; observe mankind from the heights. The golden tables and tripods of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; feast were automatons animated by the divine smith Hephaistos&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Hephaestus), and trundled in and out of the hall as required.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Before the palace of Zeus was a large, cloistered courtyard where the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; full assembly of the gods would gather--including all of the earth-,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; river- and sea-deities as well as nymphs. The peak of Olympos&#xD;&#xA;&gt; functioned as the secondary seat or throne of Zeus, apart from the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rest of other gods.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Olympian akropolis lay above the clouds and the paths of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stars, near the apex of the solid bronze-dome of the sky. It existed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in the zone known as the aither--the bright upper-air of heaven or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shining blue of the sky. The gods feasted on ambrosia and nectar,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; substances collected from the meadows of the earth-encircling river&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Okeanos or the smoke of sacrificial offerings wafting to heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Among the most descriptive passages of the *Iliad* quoted in the article, you can find these:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Afterwards when the light of the flaming sun went under they went away&#xD;&#xA;&gt; each one to sleep in his home where for each one the far-renowned&#xD;&#xA;&gt; strong-handed Hephaistos had built a house by means of his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; craftsmanship and cunning. Zeus the Olympian and lord of the lightning&#xD;&#xA;&gt; went to his own bed, where always he lay when sweet sleep came on him.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Going up the bed he slept and Hera of the gold throne (khrysothronos)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beside him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Homer, Iliad 1. 493 ff&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The pressure held their heads on a line [the Greek soldiers], and they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whirled and fought like wolves, and Eris (Hate), the Lady of Sorrow,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was gladdened to watch them. She alone of all the immortals (theoi)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; attended this action but the other immortals were not there, but sat&#xD;&#xA;&gt; quietly remote and apart in their palaces (dômata), where for each one&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of them a house had been built in splendour along the folds of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Olympos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Homer, Iliad 11.72 ff&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; She went into her chamber, which her beloved son Hephaistos had built&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for her, and closed the leaves in the door-posts snugly with a secret&#xD;&#xA;&gt; door-bar, and no other of the gods could open it. There entering she&#xD;&#xA;&gt; drew shut the leaves of the shining door, then first from her adorable&#xD;&#xA;&gt; body washed away all stains with ambrosia, and next anointed herself&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with ambrosial sweet olive oil, which stood there in its fragrance&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beside her, and from which, stirred in the house of Zeus by the golden&#xD;&#xA;&gt; pavement, a fragrance was shaken forever forth, on earth and in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Homer, Iliad 14.153 &amp; 14.225 ff&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The same quotes can be found in the English edition of the *Iliad* at the [Perseus site](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/searchresults?target=en&amp;inContent=true&amp;q=olympus&amp;doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134), but in some cases they have different number citations: [Hom. Il. 1.493][1], [Hom. Il. 11.47][2], [Hom. Il. 14.154][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [*Odyssey*](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/searchresults?target=en&amp;inContent=true&amp;q=olympus&amp;doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136) doesn't seem to add much, except that the weather there was quite fine:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So saying, the goddess, flashing-eyed Athena, departed to Olympus,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; where, they say, is the abode of the gods that stands fast forever.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Neither is it shaken by winds nor ever wet with rain, nor does snow&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fall upon it, but the air is outspread clear and cloudless, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; over it hovers a radiant whiteness. Therein the blessed gods are glad&#xD;&#xA;&gt; all their days, and thither went the flashing-eyed one, when she had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; spoken all her word to the maiden.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;[Hom. Od. 6.1][4]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0134:book=1:card=493&amp;highlight=olympus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0134:book=11:card=47&amp;highlight=olympus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0134:book=14:card=154&amp;highlight=olympus&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0136:book=6:card=1&amp;highlight=olympus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16010" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4820" RevisionGUID="145ac618-8b0b-4208-888b-5f7dab19bc2f" CreationDate="2018-04-27T17:13:22.650" UserId="4271" Text="These are compared as such: a phantom is a ghost, but a ghost is not a phantom. The meaning of that is every phantom is a ghost, but phantoms have characteristics that prevents every ghost from being a phantom. What are those differences? I have never known." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16011" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4820" RevisionGUID="145ac618-8b0b-4208-888b-5f7dab19bc2f" CreationDate="2018-04-27T17:13:22.650" UserId="4271" Text="What is the difference between a phantom and a ghost?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16012" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4820" RevisionGUID="145ac618-8b0b-4208-888b-5f7dab19bc2f" CreationDate="2018-04-27T17:13:22.650" UserId="4271" Text="|folklore|ghosts|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16013" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4817" RevisionGUID="25916a38-8257-48ed-9348-fcd07fa99ea4" CreationDate="2018-04-27T17:17:48.753" UserId="53" Comment="Clarified" Text="I grew up in Glastonbury and have been brought up with the large number of legends surrounding the town.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are several specific legends regarding the life of Jesus in Glastonbury between the ages of 12 and 30.  He was said to have been brought there for his own safety by his uncle Joseph of Arimathea.  While in the town he learnt carpentry, the countryside around Glastonbury having long been a centre of willow growing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some also say that he worked with the trees known as Gog and Magog which are two ancient oaks that survive today near the village of Wick, just outside Glastonbury and are said to be in excess of 2000 years old.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After the crucifixion, Joseph of Arimathea returned with the Holy Grail to Glastonbury.  This gives us the legend that he rested upon Wearyall Hill before entering the town.  At this time he stuck his staff into the ground and, miraculously, by morning it had sprouted.  The Holy Thorn still blossoms at Christmas every year and blossoms from it are taken to the Queen on Christmas day to decorate her table at Christmas Dinner.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Holy Grail brought by Joseph of Arimathea was lost for many centuries.  But a fragment of an olive wood cup was found in the Chalice Well at the foot of the Tor.  Some say that this is the Grail.  Local legend has it that this cup is now kept in private hands and that can be viewed by those who are worthy.  Although local legend does not agree on exactly where it can be found.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In June each year, there are pilgrimages to the town of Glastonbury by both the Roman Catholic and Church of England.  These pilgrimages commemorate the legend.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are of course many legends regarding King Arthur in Glastonbury.  One of which is that he chose the Isle of Avalon (the land around Glastonbury Tor) for the location of Camelot due to its association with Jesus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I could go on. For example Mary Caine's books about the Glastonbury Zodiac &quot;as above, so below&quot;.  A geomantic theory stating that the ground itself reflects the stars above in the hills, rivers and ancient trackways around the town.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I make no claim that any of these legends have any basis in fact - after all, remember that the monks of Glastonbury Abbey were masters at making money and some mediaeval marketing.  As likely as not, there lies the origin.  I have just always found it fascinating that so many exist about the one place.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are any number of books and websites that will give you more information regarding these legends, including their own histories and supposed derivations.  Searching them out is a fascinating pastime." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16014" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4821" RevisionGUID="3722d1d0-50a6-41ea-a4b2-fcc70af48d25" CreationDate="2018-04-27T17:35:39.870" UserId="4271" Text="As a ghost (or after death), it is popularly believed that you will see a light and that light will take you to the afterlife. Where, and/or when, does this 'light' emerge in folklore's history?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16015" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4821" RevisionGUID="3722d1d0-50a6-41ea-a4b2-fcc70af48d25" CreationDate="2018-04-27T17:35:39.870" UserId="4271" Text="What is the origin of the 'Light' as a ghost?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16016" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4821" RevisionGUID="3722d1d0-50a6-41ea-a4b2-fcc70af48d25" CreationDate="2018-04-27T17:35:39.870" UserId="4271" Text="|folklore|origins|afterlife|ghosts|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16017" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4816" RevisionGUID="908ec631-9880-4cb8-807f-c39e3b9e52e7" CreationDate="2018-04-27T17:45:03.940" UserId="165" Comment="&quot;Angela&quot;, not &quot;Angel&quot;; added Wikipedia link; medium-sized image linked to full size; alt content" Text="[Angela Merkel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Merkel), chancellor of Germany, is known for using a distinctive hand gesture. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Merkel’s hands are in front of her stomach, the fingertips meet, the thumbs and index fingers form a quadrangular shape][2]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does the [Merkel rhombus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkel-Raute) (*Merkel-Raute*), which has been [heavily used by the Christian Democratic party in its electoral campaigning](https://www.theguardian.com/world/german-elections-blog-2013/2013/sep/03/angela-merkel-diamond-german-election-campaign), have any folk-historical or other oral-traditional background?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/4r1kj.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/4r1kjm.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16018" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4816" RevisionGUID="908ec631-9880-4cb8-807f-c39e3b9e52e7" CreationDate="2018-04-27T17:45:03.940" UserId="165" Comment="&quot;Angela&quot;, not &quot;Angel&quot;; added Wikipedia link; medium-sized image linked to full size; alt content" Text="Does Angela Merkel's use of her distinctive &quot;diamond&quot; hand gesture have any folk-historical or other oral-traditional background?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16019" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4816" RevisionGUID="908ec631-9880-4cb8-807f-c39e3b9e52e7" CreationDate="2018-04-27T17:45:03.940" Comment="Proposed by 165 approved by 292, 2892 edit id of 1633" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16020" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4813" RevisionGUID="39d216ba-deef-45a3-8299-db9ff31c46bd" CreationDate="2018-04-27T18:27:37.020" UserId="4379" Comment="added 11 characters in body" Text="For example, Semitic Astarte/Babylonian Ishtar, Hittite Shaushka, Slavic Radegast, Irish Anann, etc. In studying mythology and folklore, I can't help but notice that violence and sex are often associated and I can't help but suspect that there's a deeper meaning. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16021" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="396" RevisionGUID="81cb3d3e-3b8d-43ba-9f9a-63576e26a369" CreationDate="2018-04-27T18:32:54.907" UserId="4271" Comment="slightly broadened view of how tag can be used" Text="For questions about the mythology and folklore behind the creation or existence of a being, object or idea." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16022" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="396" RevisionGUID="81cb3d3e-3b8d-43ba-9f9a-63576e26a369" CreationDate="2018-04-27T18:32:54.907" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 2892, 2774 edit id of 1632" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16023" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4822" RevisionGUID="66ba15bd-58eb-4fe9-8567-73c286311fcc" CreationDate="2018-04-27T18:32:55.107" UserId="5013" Text="Was Rumplestiltzchen intended as a Jewish Character?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;SHORT ANSWER: I would say, no, he was not. The Encyclopäpie des Märchens entry for Rumpelstiltzchen directs to “Name  des Unholdes” (name of the fiend/enemy). Entry 5 discusses the name Rumpelstiltzchen. It states that the Grimms knew of the name from Johann Fischarts Geschichklitterung (1582). “Rumpele stilt oder der Poppart.” It was a game. What kind of game it was is unknown. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;LONG ANSWER AND COMMNET:  Also, look at what the Grimms wrote about the text in the Appendix they wrote to the KHM. I consider the Appendix (Anhang) to be a gold mine of information. Most translators ignore it thinking that people like yourself will have no interest in it. Only Margaret Hunt and myself have translated it completely. From my translation: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“Already Fischart, can testify as to the age of this tale in Gargantug where the games are listed, is under No. 363 a game: &quot;Rumpele stilt or Poppart.&quot; One also says Rumpenstinzchen. The story itself is also started in the following manner differently: a little girl was given a Kaute flax, out of this it should spin flax, but what it spun, was always gold thread and not a single thread of flax could come out of her wheel. Since it was sad, sat on the roof and spun and spun for three days, but still nothing but of gold. Thereon a small man-ling came walking: I will save you from all your need, a young king's son shall pass here, and marry you, but you must promise me your first child, etc. Also the man-ling is discovered differently. A maid of the Queen goes out at night into the forest there she sees it on a cooking spoon and riding around a large fire, etc. At last the man-ling also flies on the wooden spoon out of the window. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In many German Märchen Millers and Miller’s daughters come up (see No. 31.), the current recalls very particularly to the Nordic Fenia and Menia, that all, that one wanted to have were able to grind, and who the king Frode let grind peace and gold. - The calling of the children grabs into many myths. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The spinning of the gold can also be understood in a different way, namely through the hard difficult, sorrowful work of making gold wire, which was left to poor maidens (virgins) to do. So it is called in an old Danish song:&#xD;&#xA;	nu er mim sorg saa mangefold,&#xD;&#xA;	fom Jomfruer, de spinde guld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In English:&#xD;&#xA;	now my sorrow so many times,&#xD;&#xA;	as virgins, they spin gold.&#xD;&#xA;Notes:&#xD;&#xA;Kaute = an old German expression for “a depression.”? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Handwritten notes:“After a different telling is begun in this way: the wife goes by a garden, wherein beautiful cherries are, gets strong desire for them and eats of them; a black man comes out of the earth and she must promise him her child. When is it born, he pushed through all watches [guards], who the husband has set out, and will only leave the woman the child, if when she knows his name. Now the man follows him, sees, how he climbs into a cave that is from all sides surrounded by hanging bone spoons[?] and hears how he calls himself Fleder Filtz.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am working on translating the 2nd Volume of the First Edition of the KHM into English. I would caution against using modern cultural norms to  interpret, identify or ascribe meaning the tales. Things that are abhorrent to us today were common place a long time ago. Would anyone today take a young child to see an execution today? No. Way back it was common. While some today may us a phrase such as: “He should be hung, drawn and quartered,” most probably have no idea exactly how gruesome that actually was. The cutting off of horses heads and hanging them on a wall may seem “barbaric” to us today, but when one understands that horses in Norse mythology were sacred animals often raised and uses specifically for sacrifices, to ward off evil, enemies, etc., it puts the whole question more into perspective. I would say that before people such as Bunce make such statements as you wrote, that they understand the mythology and history behind the tales first. Statements like that are easy to say if one does not know the facts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding the Jew in Thorns – it is a text I have worked on. I would say that it was not the Grimms that first created the Jewish character in the text. The text has a rich history. &#xD;&#xA;The Jew was first added in a Czech version from 1604. Johannes Bolte states that the German poem was brought into Čzech in 1604 by Tobias Mouřenin from Leitmischul: “Historia kratochvilná o jednom sedlském pacholku, kterak u sedláka za tři groše sloužil, a o poběhlým židu” (Entertaining History of a Fram-servant, who served a farmer for three Groscehn, and a lost Jew). It is in this Čzech version that the character of the monk is first changed into a Jew. Before that, in other versions, the hated character is a monk. For this I would consider Henry the VIII and the Dissolution of the Monasteries. Monks were not well liked in the past. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16024" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4822" RevisionGUID="96ef8550-df14-415b-ba69-c9dbb930044a" CreationDate="2018-04-27T18:49:03.490" UserId="5013" Comment="added 72 characters in body" Text="Was Rumplestiltzchen intended as a Jewish Character?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;SHORT ANSWER: I would say, no, he was not. The Encyclopäpie des Märchens entry for Rumpelstiltzchen directs to “Name  des Unholdes” (name of the fiend/enemy). Entry 5 discusses the name Rumpelstiltzchen. It states that the Grimms knew of the name from Johann Fischarts Geschichklitterung (1582). “Rumpele stilt oder der Poppart.” It was a game. What kind of game it was is unknown. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;LONG ANSWER AND COMMNET:  Also, look at what the Grimms wrote about the text in the Appendix they wrote to the KHM. I consider the Appendix (Anhang) to be a gold mine of information. Most translators ignore it thinking that people like yourself will have no interest in it. Only Margaret Hunt and myself have translated it completely. From my translation: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“Already Fischart, can testify as to the age of this tale in Gargantug where the games are listed, is under No. 363 a game: &quot;Rumpele stilt or Poppart.&quot; One also says Rumpenstinzchen. The story itself is also started in the following manner differently: a little girl was given a Kaute flax, out of this it should spin flax, but what it spun, was always gold thread and not a single thread of flax could come out of her wheel. Since it was sad, sat on the roof and spun and spun for three days, but still nothing but of gold. Thereon a small man-ling came walking: I will save you from all your need, a young king's son shall pass here, and marry you, but you must promise me your first child, etc. Also the man-ling is discovered differently. A maid of the Queen goes out at night into the forest there she sees it on a cooking spoon and riding around a large fire, etc. At last the man-ling also flies on the wooden spoon out of the window. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In many German Märchen Millers and Miller’s daughters come up (see No. 31.), the current recalls very particularly to the Nordic Fenia and Menia, that all, that one wanted to have were able to grind, and who the king Frode let grind peace and gold. - The calling of the children grabs into many myths. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The spinning of the gold can also be understood in a different way, namely through the hard difficult, sorrowful work of making gold wire, which was left to poor maidens (virgins) to do. So it is called in an old Danish song:&#xD;&#xA;	nu er mim sorg saa mangefold,&#xD;&#xA;	fom Jomfruer, de spinde guld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In English:&#xD;&#xA;	now my sorrow so many times,&#xD;&#xA;	as virgins, they spin gold.&#xD;&#xA;Notes:&#xD;&#xA;Kaute = an old German expression for “a depression.”? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Handwritten notes:“After a different telling is begun in this way: the wife goes by a garden, wherein beautiful cherries are, gets strong desire for them and eats of them; a black man comes out of the earth and she must promise him her child. When is it born, he pushed through all watches [guards], who the husband has set out, and will only leave the woman the child, if when she knows his name. Now the man follows him, sees, how he climbs into a cave that is from all sides surrounded by hanging bone spoons[?] and hears how he calls himself Fleder Filtz.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am working on translating the 2nd Volume of the First Edition of the KHM into English. I would caution against using modern cultural norms to  interpret, identify or ascribe meaning the tales. Things that are abhorrent to us today were common place a long time ago. Would anyone today take a young child to see an execution today? No. Way back it was common. While some today may us a phrase such as: “He should be hung, drawn and quartered,” most probably have no idea exactly how gruesome that actually was. The cutting off of horses heads and hanging them on a wall may seem “barbaric” to us today, but when one understands that horses in Norse mythology were sacred animals often raised and uses specifically for sacrifices, to ward off evil, enemies, etc., it puts the whole question more into perspective. I would say that before people such as Bunce make such statements as you wrote, that they understand the mythology and history behind the tales first. Statements like that are easy to say if one does not know the facts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding the Jew in Thorns – it is a text I have worked on. I would say that it was not the Grimms that first created the Jewish character in the text. The text has a rich history. &#xD;&#xA;The Jew was first added in a Czech version from 1604. Johannes Bolte states that the German poem was brought into Čzech in 1604 by Tobias Mouřenin from Leitmischul: “Historia kratochvilná o jednom sedlském pacholku, kterak u sedláka za tři groše sloužil, a o poběhlým židu” (Entertaining History of a Fram-servant, who served a farmer for three Groscehn, and a lost Jew). It is in this Čzech version that the character of the monk is first changed into a Jew. Before that, in other versions, the hated character is a monk. For this I would consider Henry the VIII and the Dissolution of the Monasteries. Monks were not well liked in the past. Why has the monk's bad reputation mostly, if not entirely, been ignored?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16025" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4822" RevisionGUID="044b63b0-1f22-4226-9604-9318580720db" CreationDate="2018-04-27T19:31:14.663" UserId="5013" Comment="added 4407 characters in body" Text="Was Rumplestiltzchen intended as a Jewish Character?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;SHORT ANSWER: I would say, no, he was not. The Encyclopäpie des Märchens entry for Rumpelstiltzchen directs to “Name  des Unholdes” (name of the fiend/enemy). Entry 5 on pg. 1170-1171 discusses the name Rumpelstiltzchen. It states that the Grimms knew of the name from Johann Fischarts Geschichklitterung (1582). “Rumpele stilt oder der Poppart.” It was a game. What kind of game it was is unknown. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;LONG ANSWER AND COMMNET:  Also, look at what the Grimms wrote about the text in the Appendix they wrote to the KHM. I consider the Appendix (Anhang) to be a gold mine of information. Most translators ignore it thinking that people like yourself will have no interest in it. Only Margaret Hunt and myself have translated it completely. From my translation: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“Already Fischart, can testify as to the age of this tale in Gargantug where the games are listed, is under No. 363 a game: &quot;Rumpele stilt or Poppart.&quot; One also says Rumpenstinzchen. The story itself is also started in the following manner differently: a little girl was given a Kaute flax, out of this it should spin flax, but what it spun, was always gold thread and not a single thread of flax could come out of her wheel. Since it was sad, sat on the roof and spun and spun for three days, but still nothing but of gold. Thereon a small man-ling came walking: I will save you from all your need, a young king's son shall pass here, and marry you, but you must promise me your first child, etc. Also the man-ling is discovered differently. A maid of the Queen goes out at night into the forest there she sees it on a cooking spoon and riding around a large fire, etc. At last the man-ling also flies on the wooden spoon out of the window. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In many German Märchen Millers and Miller’s daughters come up (see No. 31.), the current recalls very particularly to the Nordic Fenia and Menia, that all, that one wanted to have were able to grind, and who the king Frode let grind peace and gold. - The calling of the children grabs into many myths. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The spinning of the gold can also be understood in a different way, namely through the hard difficult, sorrowful work of making gold wire, which was left to poor maidens (virgins) to do. So it is called in an old Danish song:&#xD;&#xA;	nu er mim sorg saa mangefold,&#xD;&#xA;	fom Jomfruer, de spinde guld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In English:&#xD;&#xA;	now my sorrow so many times,&#xD;&#xA;	as virgins, they spin gold.&#xD;&#xA;Notes:&#xD;&#xA;Kaute = an old German expression for “a depression.”? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Handwritten notes:“After a different telling is begun in this way: the wife goes by a garden, wherein beautiful cherries are, gets strong desire for them and eats of them; a black man comes out of the earth and she must promise him her child. When is it born, he pushed through all watches [guards], who the husband has set out, and will only leave the woman the child, if when she knows his name. Now the man follows him, sees, how he climbs into a cave that is from all sides surrounded by hanging bone spoons[?] and hears how he calls himself Fleder Filtz.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am working on translating the 2nd Volume of the First Edition of the KHM into English. I would caution against using modern cultural norms to  interpret, identify or ascribe meaning the tales. Things that are abhorrent to us today were common place a long time ago. Would anyone today take a young child to see an execution today? No. Way back it was common. While some today may us a phrase such as: “He should be hung, drawn and quartered,” most probably have no idea exactly how gruesome that actually was. The cutting off of horses heads and hanging them on a wall may seem “barbaric” to us today, but when one understands that horses in Norse mythology were sacred animals often raised and uses specifically for sacrifices, to ward off evil, enemies, etc., it puts the whole question more into perspective. I would say that before people such as Bunce make such statements as you wrote, that they understand the mythology and history behind the tales first. Statements like that are easy to say if one does not know the facts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding the Jew in Thorns – it is a text I have worked on. I would say that it was not the Grimms that first created the Jewish character in the text. The text has a rich history. &#xD;&#xA;The Jew was first added in a Czech version from 1604. Johannes Bolte states that the German poem was brought into Čzech in 1604 by Tobias Mouřenin from Leitmischul: “Historia kratochvilná o jednom sedlském pacholku, kterak u sedláka za tři groše sloužil, a o poběhlým židu” (Entertaining History of a Fram-servant, who served a farmer for three Groscehn, and a lost Jew). It is in this Čzech version that the character of the monk is first changed into a Jew. Before that, in other versions, the hated character is a monk. For this I would consider Henry the VIII and the Dissolution of the Monasteries. Monks were not well liked in the past. Why has the monk's bad reputation mostly, if not entirely, been ignored?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16026" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4823" RevisionGUID="e74923f4-7cbe-4e90-b612-cb4c3b2d2680" CreationDate="2018-04-27T19:51:20.207" UserDisplayName="user4660" Text="According to **Longman Dictionary Of Language And Culture:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **phan‧tom** */ˈfæntəm/* noun&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1. a shadowy likeness of a dead person that seems to appear on earth; GHOST.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2. something that exists only in one's imagination.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **ghost** /ɡəʊst/ noun&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1. the spirit of a dead person that some people think they can feel or see in a place&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2. also **ghost‧writ‧er** ...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 3. **give up the ghost** ...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4. **the ghost of a** ...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 5. **the ghost of Christmas past** ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Stereotypes of ghosts:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Stereotypes of ghosts][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Thus** some meaning of this two words are same, and some are not. In other words this two words are synonyms in some cases..&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/UQwzx.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16027" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4822" RevisionGUID="d8b79f4e-a4e2-4148-9294-b1cdd5a72af9" CreationDate="2018-04-27T20:03:17.470" UserId="5013" Comment="added 429 characters in body" Text="Was Rumplestiltzchen intended as a Jewish Character?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;SHORT ANSWER: I would say, no, he was not. The Encyclopäpie des Märchens entry for Rumpelstiltzchen directs to “Name  des Unholdes” (name of the fiend/enemy). Entry 5 on pg. 1170-1171 discusses the name Rumpelstiltzchen. It states that the Grimms knew of the name from Johann Fischarts Geschichklitterung (1582). “Rumpele stilt oder der Poppart.” It was a game. What kind of game it was is unknown. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;LONG ANSWER AND COMMNET:  Also, look at what the Grimms wrote about the text in the Appendix they wrote to the KHM. I consider the Appendix (Anhang) to be a gold mine of information. Most translators ignore it thinking that people like yourself will have no interest in it. Only Margaret Hunt and myself have translated it completely. From my translation: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“Already Fischart, can testify as to the age of this tale in Gargantug where the games are listed, is under No. 363 a game: &quot;Rumpele stilt or Poppart.&quot; One also says Rumpenstinzchen. The story itself is also started in the following manner differently: a little girl was given a Kaute flax, out of this it should spin flax, but what it spun, was always gold thread and not a single thread of flax could come out of her wheel. Since it was sad, sat on the roof and spun and spun for three days, but still nothing but of gold. Thereon a small man-ling came walking: I will save you from all your need, a young king's son shall pass here, and marry you, but you must promise me your first child, etc. Also the man-ling is discovered differently. A maid of the Queen goes out at night into the forest there she sees it on a cooking spoon and riding around a large fire, etc. At last the man-ling also flies on the wooden spoon out of the window. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In many German Märchen Millers and Miller’s daughters come up (see No. 31.), the current recalls very particularly to the Nordic Fenia and Menia, that all, that one wanted to have were able to grind, and who the king Frode let grind peace and gold. - The calling of the children grabs into many myths. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The spinning of the gold can also be understood in a different way, namely through the hard difficult, sorrowful work of making gold wire, which was left to poor maidens (virgins) to do. So it is called in an old Danish song:&#xD;&#xA;	nu er mim sorg saa mangefold,&#xD;&#xA;	fom Jomfruer, de spinde guld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In English:&#xD;&#xA;	now my sorrow so many times,&#xD;&#xA;	as virgins, they spin gold.&#xD;&#xA;Notes:&#xD;&#xA;Kaute = an old German expression for “a depression.”? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Handwritten notes:“After a different telling is begun in this way: the wife goes by a garden, wherein beautiful cherries are, gets strong desire for them and eats of them; a black man comes out of the earth and she must promise him her child. When is it born, he pushed through all watches [guards], who the husband has set out, and will only leave the woman the child, if when she knows his name. Now the man follows him, sees, how he climbs into a cave that is from all sides surrounded by hanging bone spoons[?] and hears how he calls himself Fleder Filtz.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I can not see anything anti-semitic in what the Grimms say here. To them, the text is about the difficult work of spinning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am working on translating the 2nd Volume of the First Edition of the KHM into English. I would caution against using modern cultural norms to  interpret, identify or ascribe meaning the tales. Things that are abhorrent to us today were common place a long time ago. Would anyone today take a young child to see an execution today? No. Way back it was common. While some today may us a phrase such as: “He should be hung, drawn and quartered,” most probably have no idea exactly how gruesome that actually was. The cutting off of horses heads and hanging them on a wall may seem “barbaric” to us today, but when one understands that horses in Norse mythology were sacred animals often raised and uses specifically for sacrifices, to ward off evil, enemies, etc., it puts the whole question more into perspective. I would say that before people such as Bunce make such statements as you wrote, that they understand the mythology and history behind the tales first. Statements like that are easy to say if one does not know the facts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding the Jew in Thorns – it is a text I have worked on. I would say that it was not the Grimms that first created the Jewish character in the text. The text has a rich history. &#xD;&#xA;The Jew was first added in a Czech version from 1604. Johannes Bolte states that the German poem was brought into Čzech in 1604 by Tobias Mouřenin from Leitmischul: “Historia kratochvilná o jednom sedlském pacholku, kterak u sedláka za tři groše sloužil, a o poběhlým židu” (Entertaining History of a Fram-servant, who served a farmer for three Groscehn, and a lost Jew). It is in this Čzech version that the character of the monk is first changed into a Jew. Before that, in other versions, the hated character is a monk. For this I would consider Henry the VIII and the Dissolution of the Monasteries. Monks were not well liked in the past. Why has the monk's bad reputation mostly, if not entirely, been ignored?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have looked at the origins of the text. I have looked at where, when and by whom the character of the Jew was added into different texts. I have not looked at the question as to why the figure of the Jew was added. The Grimm version, as Bolte stated, was also based on an oral version from Hessen. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16029" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4824" RevisionGUID="bf166731-ff8e-48f3-983a-b18375831ec3" CreationDate="2018-04-27T21:33:15.280" UserId="2892" Text="I've done some preliminary research, and found nothing on [Thaleia][1]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is one of those wonderful little &quot;mythical myths&quot; where the only sources are secondary: all we know of this nymph comes from a mention in ancient text &quot;The Life of Aeschylus&quot; with no author attributed. The mention is apparently in relation to a lost play of Aeschylus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So that's all the information there is, and it's highly unlikely there will be any more information forthcoming.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;*PS- thanks for raising this question.  The wikipedia article should be amended to use the spelling in the sole reference, [Thaleia][2], because the current spelling in the wiki injects needless confusion.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheThaleia.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0104%3Aentry%3Dthaleia-bio-3" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16030" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4825" RevisionGUID="681f770c-c58e-4072-bc3e-5634ca203931" CreationDate="2018-04-28T00:24:26.703" UserId="5013" Text="From Jacob Grimm “*Deutsche Mythologie*,” translated by James Stallybrass Vol 3, 1883, page 1007. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“*Judaism has devils, but knows nothing of she-devils; all power for good or evil it places in the hands of male beings (page 396). To put it still more generally: gods are all together the older, and a strict monotheism or dualism recognizes gods alone; it is in the mellower fullness of Polytheism that goddesses first emerge. The Teutonic paganism, like others, is fond of female deities and elves: even the Goth. Vaihts (genius) is feminine (page 439). Divine mothers, bright benignant dames, norns, valkyrs, wood-wives, water-maidens, formed a main part of the religion: only kobolds and home-sprites are exclusively male; the very giantess are often lovely in mien and manners, and the world of the dead is ruled by a goddess.*”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He goes on to describe Grendel’s mother in Beowulf and Devil’s mothers/grandmothers in the KHM.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;His mythology is very worthwhile reading. Luckily, it has been translated into English so it can be read by Americans also. The Stallybrass text are available free online.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The problem in answering the question further is that many people think that that &quot;Satan,&quot; the &quot;Devil,&quot; &quot;Lucifer,&quot; etc., all refer to the same being/idea when they are not. In different times/places characters are replaced. For example, in the Grimms KHM, the character that often appears as the &quot;Teufel&quot; (devil) was at one time prior Donar (Thunar/Thorr). It is Donar who is the god who rules over clouds and rain and when the text describe the Devil arriving with wind and noise, this was at one time how Donar arrived. Time passed and Donar was replaced with the Devil. But elements of wind and noise in the text still point to the older pagan beliefs. This “Devil” here is not necessarily the same being as the Jewish “Statan.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note- it was easier to use the Stallybrass text rather than translate the whole thing myself again" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16032" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4826" RevisionGUID="7384d398-48c4-4fc5-90e8-e39b69ff36ce" CreationDate="2018-04-28T15:49:18.443" UserId="4962" Text="The Wyandot Indians have an origin myth for sun showers.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Then the Thunder spoke again to the young woman and said,  &quot;I have now taken him along with me, and whenever it rains while the sun is shining, the people shall think and say that Tsi-ju'Q-Q, the Wyandot, is making the rain.&quot; &#xA;&#xA;http://www.wyandot.org/sunshower.htm&#xA;&#xA;Snopes has an array of sun shower folklore references.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Various cultures ascribe the occurrence of these wettings to the marriage of animals, such as rats (Arabic), tigers (Korea), monkeys (Zulu), jackals (South Africa), hyenas (Kenya), or bears (Bulgaria). However, the critters most commonly pointed to are foxes — cultures in numerous spots around the world pronounce a sun shower as a sign the foxes are getting hitched. &#xA;The devil is pointed to as the cause primarily in Anglo-Saxon cultures. Says one 1888 book of American lore: “A sun shower is caused by the devil whipping his wife, the raindrops presumably being her tears.” Such explanation is typically phrased in a number of ways (such as “Satan is beating his grandmother”), often with the added detail that the female relative he’s victimizing failed to prepare a particular foodstuff to his liking. Alternatively, the devil may be said to be engaging in a rather undevilish behavior, such as kissing his wife. This latter version serves to provide an answer for the contradiction that is a sun shower; that something which violates the law of the universe (i.e., the devil’s behaving nicely) causes something else which goes against the law of nature (e.g., rain falling from the sky while the sun is shining). Similarly, this odd weather phenomenon is sometimes said to be caused by the devil and his wife fighting, accompanied by the additional suggestion that if one were to stick a pin into the ground and place his ear to it, he’d hear the argument.&#xA;Witches get brought into the fray by claims that it’s their churning butter or combing their hair which causes sun showers. Alternatively, in an echo of the “animal” rumor, they may be said to be getting married.&#xA;&#xA;https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/sun-shower-rain/&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16036" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4828" RevisionGUID="ff8269d5-f4c7-4a79-9b64-085a97ac5e3a" CreationDate="2018-04-29T01:35:52.420" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="Several websites (for example, [here](https://www.russianlife.com/stories/online-archive/magical-kefir/) and [here](http://www.thewalkingencyclopedia.com/kefir/) report the legend that kefir grains, which are used in the making of the fermented milk drink kefir, were given to Orthodox Christians in the Northern Caucasus by the Prophet Mohammed. The first of those sources states that the legend is current among Muslims living in that area.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In one version, the tradition is that Mohammed prohibited the further dissemination of the kefir grains, saying it would cause them to lose their magical powers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the face of it, the story that the founder of Islam gave such a special gift to some Orthodox Christians is remarkable. What is its origin?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16037" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4828" RevisionGUID="ff8269d5-f4c7-4a79-9b64-085a97ac5e3a" CreationDate="2018-04-29T01:35:52.420" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="What is the origin of the story that kefir grains were given to Orthodox Christians in the Northern Caucasus by the Prophet Mohammed?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16038" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4828" RevisionGUID="ff8269d5-f4c7-4a79-9b64-085a97ac5e3a" CreationDate="2018-04-29T01:35:52.420" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16039" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4828" RevisionGUID="90408a16-cd13-4dd2-a7c6-07c86f814247" CreationDate="2018-04-29T01:41:25.647" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="added 75 characters in body" Text="Several websites (for example, [here](https://www.russianlife.com/stories/online-archive/magical-kefir/) and [here](http://www.thewalkingencyclopedia.com/kefir/)) report the story that kefir grains, which are used in the making of [the fermented milk drink kefir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kefir), were given to Orthodox Christians in the Northern Caucasus by the Prophet Mohammed. According to the first of those sources, the legend is still current among Muslims who live in that region.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In one version, the tradition is that Mohammed prohibited the further dissemination of the kefir grains, saying it would cause them to lose their magical powers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the face of it, the story that the founder of Islam gave such a special gift to some Orthodox Christians is remarkable. But I have not found any traces of it that date to before the present century. What is its origin?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16040" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4828" RevisionGUID="2ab4c03d-18e3-4911-a181-435036a5fc7b" CreationDate="2018-04-29T02:38:59.260" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="deleted 24 characters in body" Text="Several websites (for example, [here](https://www.russianlife.com/stories/online-archive/magical-kefir/) and [here](http://www.thewalkingencyclopedia.com/kefir/)) report the story that kefir grains, which are used in the making of [the fermented milk drink kefir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kefir), were given to Orthodox Christians in the Northern Caucasus by the Prophet Mohammed. According to the first of those sources, the legend is still current among Muslims who live in that region.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In one version, the tradition is that Mohammed prohibited the further dissemination of the grains, saying it would cause them to lose their magical powers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the face of it, the story that the founder of Islam gave such a special gift to Orthodox Christians is remarkable. But I found no traces of it dating to before the present century. What is its origin?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16041" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3276" RevisionGUID="30b31ddf-11ee-4137-975b-0e91d8f03ab8" CreationDate="2018-04-30T03:19:48.867" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|pantheon|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16042" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3" RevisionGUID="2cff8856-1bf4-48d0-b39c-cfd9b68fe35b" CreationDate="2018-04-30T14:18:10.773" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|comparative|teutonic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16043" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1" RevisionGUID="cf95a1a0-24d5-4c41-b210-5719c9da8f05" CreationDate="2018-04-30T14:31:18.687" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|pantheon|reference-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16045" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4829" RevisionGUID="aa1ae01f-680e-4246-bb68-9ddd573b154f" CreationDate="2018-04-30T14:34:07.483" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
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  <row Id="16048" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4830" RevisionGUID="657b202f-7ba5-455d-9193-919d041fdfdd" CreationDate="2018-04-30T14:34:07.483" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16049" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="10" RevisionGUID="8909ced9-2bad-4709-9a7c-d88e8797991f" CreationDate="2018-04-30T14:35:04.407" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|afterlife|valhalla|folkvangr|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16050" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="64" RevisionGUID="319ae622-b1bc-4cc0-86f7-668fcd5d1299" CreationDate="2018-04-30T14:36:37.463" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|god-items|hermes|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16051" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="37" RevisionGUID="26e08d5d-a0ab-40a6-b94c-7ff82dea1180" CreationDate="2018-04-30T14:38:25.280" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|theseus|parentage|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16053" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="29" RevisionGUID="52076c8c-29c8-4199-8a17-de6f4a471d31" CreationDate="2018-04-30T14:40:33.187" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|zeus|demi-gods|family-tree|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16054" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="108" RevisionGUID="1288768d-49b0-4395-93df-e60f16325c3f" CreationDate="2018-04-30T14:42:23.507" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|god-items|weapons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16055" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="101" RevisionGUID="4738ca92-2147-4939-974b-2e6abf8a780a" CreationDate="2018-04-30T14:42:57.783" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|origins|polynesian|easter-island|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16056" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="86" RevisionGUID="7c9977fe-2e02-4d5b-a2e3-c7daf77e57ff" CreationDate="2018-04-30T14:44:35.803" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|hercules|hera|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16057" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="79" RevisionGUID="b010e907-2cfa-42bf-93b9-e91690d9df01" CreationDate="2018-04-30T14:46:05.807" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|underworld|hades|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16058" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="128" RevisionGUID="a2be1fb7-c0ee-4fb0-b46b-93654c4a9bd6" CreationDate="2018-04-30T14:57:01.000" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|folklore|chinese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16060" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="124" RevisionGUID="28333763-690a-4575-a9c2-a817451cdad4" CreationDate="2018-04-30T14:57:56.240" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|origins|creation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16061" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="112" RevisionGUID="9278b2d0-0e4a-4d11-bdf9-02e0b63c1533" CreationDate="2018-04-30T15:03:13.547" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|roman|hercules|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16062" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="178" RevisionGUID="8ec2364d-4890-4a16-822f-03c4319868fa" CreationDate="2018-04-30T15:04:13.127" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|hercules|demi-gods|love|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16063" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="174" RevisionGUID="950192d4-58a5-4bb7-9fe8-ee95aba87fa2" CreationDate="2018-04-30T15:05:57.873" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16064" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="174" RevisionGUID="950192d4-58a5-4bb7-9fe8-ee95aba87fa2" CreationDate="2018-04-30T15:05:57.873" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="I can't seem to figure out if the [Sirens](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siren_(mythology)) were, like, half human-half bird monsters, attracting men with their magical song...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Wikipedia Bird Image][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;or if they were also very beautiful women.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Wikipedia Siren Image][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/EZaAT.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/aLVcn.jpg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Were they humans with magical abilities / harps? Or did they have power derived from the blood of gods? Is the latter interpretation a (relatively) modern revision?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16065" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="168" RevisionGUID="36bffbf4-bc29-4c55-85a0-12442ba8e710" CreationDate="2018-04-30T15:08:21.967" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|folklore|celtic|brittany|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16066" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="167" RevisionGUID="b26af73c-ee0f-49de-b26c-85cf187fc647" CreationDate="2018-04-30T15:09:04.180" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|sumerian|gilgamesh|demi-gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16067" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="166" RevisionGUID="b47dbec9-1177-466a-a768-cf895a115d69" CreationDate="2018-04-30T15:10:11.940" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16068" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="154" RevisionGUID="ebe004e5-50ca-47ea-9fe3-82606e25900b" CreationDate="2018-04-30T15:11:18.487" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|god-items|thor|weapons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16069" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4831" RevisionGUID="8228c613-da1c-4862-9ffc-22a2da9d44bd" CreationDate="2018-04-30T15:39:03.983" UserId="5017" Text="From my exposure to Greek mythology (*[The Iliad][1]*, *[The Odyssey][2]*, etc.) I had always seen/heard the god of the sea, [Poseidon][3], referred to as Earth-Shaker. [Zeus][4] was always given other titles such as Zeus Cloud-Gatherer or Zeus Thunderer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, in the book *[Moses and Monotheism][5]* (p. 74), [Sigmund Freud][6] writes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zeus still bears the name of &quot;the Earth-shaker.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This seems incorrect to me, as Earth-Shaker seems to be Poseidon's title, not Zeus's title.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A preliminary google search did not return any results for Zeus being referred to as Earth-Shaker. So did Freud simply make a mistake, and use Poseidon's title for Zeus, or are there actually instances where Zeus is referred to as Earth-Shaker?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iliad&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odyssey&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poseidon&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://ia600500.us.archive.org/15/items/mosesandmonothei032233mbp/mosesandmonothei032233mbp.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigmund_Freud" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16070" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4831" RevisionGUID="8228c613-da1c-4862-9ffc-22a2da9d44bd" CreationDate="2018-04-30T15:39:03.983" UserId="5017" Text="Is Zeus ever referred to as Earthshaker?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16071" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4831" RevisionGUID="8228c613-da1c-4862-9ffc-22a2da9d44bd" CreationDate="2018-04-30T15:39:03.983" UserId="5017" Text="|zeus|olympians|poseidon|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16072" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4832" RevisionGUID="18d2d374-3fd1-4019-88fa-3cf0437a8b48" CreationDate="2018-04-30T15:51:34.823" UserId="4271" Text="The Judges of the Dead in Greek Mythology are Minos, Rhadamanthus, and Aeacus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Minos][1] was a tyrant king of Crete. He made war with Athens because his son died there. He demanded 14 virgin youths, 7 girls and 7 boys, be sacrificed every nine (it varies) years to the Minotaur in the Labyrinth built by Daedalus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Radamanthus][2] was a wise King of Crete and brother of Minos. Minos ran him out of Crete. (*I would think after Minos died, he came back to rule, but I can't seem to find that snippet and where.*) He pasted a law on Crete that they (Cretans) must swear oaths to animals and another saying if you defend yourself against a physical aggressor, you will not be punished.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Aeacus][3] was King of Aegina. On the island of his birth, there were no people (reasons vary). So Zeus changed the ants into men. As a settler of disputes, he was often called upon by both men and gods alike. In one legend, Poseidon and Apollo (as mortals) asked him to help build the walls of Troy. After they were built, dragons rushed the walls and the one built by Aeacus fell. Apollo then foretold that Troy would fall at the hands of Aeacus's descendants (the Aeacidae).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All three sons of Zeus then became the Judges of the dead in the afterlife. But why did they become the Judges (especially Minos)? What was the need for Judges?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minos&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhadamanthus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeacus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16073" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4832" RevisionGUID="18d2d374-3fd1-4019-88fa-3cf0437a8b48" CreationDate="2018-04-30T15:51:34.823" UserId="4271" Text="Why are the three Judges of the Underworld Zeus's sons?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16074" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4832" RevisionGUID="18d2d374-3fd1-4019-88fa-3cf0437a8b48" CreationDate="2018-04-30T15:51:34.823" UserId="4271" Text="|underworld|zeus|afterlife|demi-gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16075" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4833" RevisionGUID="4494d3d3-2b08-414d-ac23-94b8cca2c67e" CreationDate="2018-04-30T16:05:45.140" UserId="5017" Text="In *[Konungs Skuggsjá][1]* it is speculated that there are precisely two of them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From [Laurence M. Larson][2]'s translation, *[The King's Mirror][3]* P. 125:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There is a fish not yet mentioned which it is scarcely advisable to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; speak about on account of its size, which to most men will seem&#xD;&#xA;&gt; incredible. There are, moreover, but very few who can tell anything&#xD;&#xA;&gt; definite about it, inasmuch as it is rarely seen by men; for it almost&#xD;&#xA;&gt; never approaches the shore or appears where fishermen can see it, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I doubt that this sort of fish is very plentiful in the sea. In our&#xD;&#xA;&gt; language it is usually called the &quot;kraken.&quot; I can say nothing definite&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as to its length in ells, for on those occasions when men have seen&#xD;&#xA;&gt; it, it has appeared more like an island than a fish. Nor have I heard&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that one has ever been caught or found dead. It seems likely that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; there are but two in all the ocean and that these beget no offspring,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for I believe it is always the same ones that appear. Nor would it be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; well for other fishes if they were as numerous as the other whales,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; seeing that they are so immense and need so much food.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konungs_skuggsj%C3%A1&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurence_M._Larson&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://ia800300.us.archive.org/22/items/kingsmirrorspecu00konuuoft/kingsmirrorspecu00konuuoft.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16076" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="194" RevisionGUID="b073af3a-60ea-4ee0-b502-38d4ceddf355" CreationDate="2018-04-30T16:32:12.843" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|giants|loki|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16077" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="225" RevisionGUID="412893f9-8452-487f-a843-af6e937f305a" CreationDate="2018-04-30T16:38:21.803" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|zeus|poseidon|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16078" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="286" RevisionGUID="39cd6810-dcb9-42b5-a21e-c207fb67a421" CreationDate="2018-04-30T16:43:40.117" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|comparative|native-american|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16079" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="255" RevisionGUID="ef6fc8b0-c8a7-4a48-b79a-bf4f4bf7852f" CreationDate="2018-04-30T16:44:50.390" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|underworld|afterlife|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16080" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4834" RevisionGUID="3200862f-1588-4382-b428-7a593a16b638" CreationDate="2018-04-30T17:25:03.087" UserId="4271" Text="&gt; Beyond lay Erebus, which could be taken for a euphonym of Hades, whose own name was dread. There were two pools, that of Lethe, where the common souls flocked to erase all memory, and the pool of Mnemosyne (&quot;memory&quot;), where the initiates of the Mysteries drank instead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; From [Wikipedia][1], 4/30/2018&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Mysteries refers to a cult of Demeter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The pool of Mnemosyne is not often mentioned and I can't find much else on it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can information about it be expanded upon? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16081" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4834" RevisionGUID="3200862f-1588-4382-b428-7a593a16b638" CreationDate="2018-04-30T17:25:03.087" UserId="4271" Text="When was the pool of Mnemosyne first mentioned as part of the Underworld waters?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16082" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4834" RevisionGUID="3200862f-1588-4382-b428-7a593a16b638" CreationDate="2018-04-30T17:25:03.087" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|underworld|demeter|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16083" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4835" RevisionGUID="0438e679-1351-4083-a8f2-651452676cf7" CreationDate="2018-04-30T17:28:49.053" UserId="4271" Text="In Greek culture, it was frowned upon (to put it lightly) if a woman died in child birth. Are any myths told of a woman dying in child birth? Did the mother dying have any effect on the child's reputation?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16084" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4835" RevisionGUID="0438e679-1351-4083-a8f2-651452676cf7" CreationDate="2018-04-30T17:28:49.053" UserId="4271" Text="Are there any myths were a woman dies in childbirth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16085" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4835" RevisionGUID="0438e679-1351-4083-a8f2-651452676cf7" CreationDate="2018-04-30T17:28:49.053" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16086" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4828" RevisionGUID="82f98673-112b-4d98-83be-75e7107920c6" CreationDate="2018-04-30T19:53:04.917" UserDisplayName="user1618" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body" Text="Several websites (for example, [here](https://www.russianlife.com/stories/online-archive/magical-kefir/) and [here](http://www.thewalkingencyclopedia.com/kefir/)) report the story that kefir grains, which are used in the making of [the fermented milk drink kefir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kefir), were given to Orthodox Christians in the Northern Caucasus by the Prophet Mohammed. According to the first of those sources, the legend is still current among Muslims who live in that region.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In one version, the tradition is that Mohammed prohibited the further dissemination of the grains, saying it would cause a loss of their magical powers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the face of it, the story that the founder of Islam gave such a special gift to Orthodox Christians is remarkable. But I found no traces of it dating to before the present century. What is its origin?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16089" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="200" RevisionGUID="b5cc55a3-4628-4541-9ea6-4bb819a2a52c" CreationDate="2018-04-30T21:17:50.413" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|japanese|shinto|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16090" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4837" RevisionGUID="9fab2f15-18eb-4e55-a370-27a2a9415ab4" CreationDate="2018-04-30T21:21:01.723" UserId="4271" Text="Female heroins are rare in Mythology. In Greek, off the top of my hippo-campus, I can only recall one, Atlanta. In Chinese folklore, possibly the most popularly known, Hua/Fa Mulan. Does Shinto mythology (Japanese folklore) have a similar heroin legend?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16091" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4837" RevisionGUID="9fab2f15-18eb-4e55-a370-27a2a9415ab4" CreationDate="2018-04-30T21:21:01.723" UserId="4271" Text="Are there any female heroins in Shinto Mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16092" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4837" RevisionGUID="9fab2f15-18eb-4e55-a370-27a2a9415ab4" CreationDate="2018-04-30T21:21:01.723" UserId="4271" Text="|japanese|shinto|heroism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16093" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4837" RevisionGUID="e5e4cb35-3286-4c53-bb31-7fa957978e33" CreationDate="2018-04-30T21:23:38.387" UserId="57" Comment="corrected spelling (why are you capitalizing mythology all the time?)" Text="Female heroines are rare in mythology. In Greek, off the top of my hippocampus, I can only recall one, Atlanta. In Chinese folklore, possibly the most popularly known, Hua/Fa Mulan. Does Shinto mythology (Japanese folklore) have a similar heroin legend?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16094" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4837" RevisionGUID="e5e4cb35-3286-4c53-bb31-7fa957978e33" CreationDate="2018-04-30T21:23:38.387" UserId="57" Comment="corrected spelling (why are you capitalizing mythology all the time?)" Text="Are there any female heroines in Shinto mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16095" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="3071" RevisionGUID="f9be276b-5069-4493-8a9c-9a9d57f5c074" CreationDate="2018-04-30T21:24:42.933" UserId="57" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;yannis&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="16096" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4838" RevisionGUID="2fd971f6-69ae-48a4-a41a-e7db543d97ab" CreationDate="2018-05-01T01:28:27.843" UserId="4271" Text="In this [question][1], it mentions Amaterasu (Amaterasu-omikami) retreated into her cave after Susanoo (Susano'o) did a bunch of things to her. It does not elaborate further on this, save for the flayed horse thrown at her weaving girls. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How else did Susanoo terrorize Amaterasu?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/200/why-was-amaterasu-so-angered-by-the-flayed-horse-that-susanoo-threw-at-her/204?noredirect=1#comment10508_204" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16097" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4838" RevisionGUID="2fd971f6-69ae-48a4-a41a-e7db543d97ab" CreationDate="2018-05-01T01:28:27.843" UserId="4271" Text="What else was done to Amaterasu?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16098" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4838" RevisionGUID="2fd971f6-69ae-48a4-a41a-e7db543d97ab" CreationDate="2018-05-01T01:28:27.843" UserId="4271" Text="|japanese|shinto|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16099" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4839" RevisionGUID="604dbb26-d082-4891-90af-fedeb880185a" CreationDate="2018-05-01T02:01:34.417" UserId="4962" Text="&gt; Amaterasu or Amaterasu-ōmikami is one of the major deities in the animistic Shinto religion of Japan; her full name means “Great Divinity Illuminating Heaven.” One of the world’s few female solar deities, a principal myth featuring Amaterasu depicts her conflict with her brother, Susanoo, god of storms and the sea. Angered with Susanoo because he threw a flayed horse into her weaving hall (rude), Amaterasu withdrew to a cave and brought an age of darkness upon the world. She was eventually coaxed into leaving the cave (pictured above), but Susanoo was banished from heaven. As a gesture of reconciliation, he gifted her the legendary sword Ama-no-Murakumo-no-Tsurugi (天叢雲剣, “Sword of the Gathering Clouds of Heaven”).&#xA;&#xA;https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/18/awesome-goddesses-mythology_n_6881434.html&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The diverse roles of women in Shinto myths make it difficult for scholars to generalize about women's roles at Shinto's origin.[2] Amateratsu, the sun goddess, and Himiko, an early shaman queen of Japan, are central figures in the faith. Other goddesses include Benten, a dragon-woman of good luck, and Inari, a rice goddess who takes the form of kitsune, a vixen (female fox) at many Shinto shrines.[3] The Kojiki, a collection of stories which form Shinto practices, purport to be collected from a courtesan, Hieda no Are, and written down at the request of an Empress, Gemmei.[3]&#xA;&#xA;https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Shinto" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16100" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4771" RevisionGUID="ee70c6b6-211b-499e-9587-1ad23bc8ef3b" CreationDate="2018-05-01T02:43:16.910" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="The writing, entitled the *Bibliotheca*, &quot;Library,&quot; used to be attributed to the Athenian historian Apollodorus, but, as Wikipedia says, 'that attribution is now regarded as false, and so &quot;Pseudo-&quot; was added to Apollodorus' so that one now reads about 'Pseudo-Apollodorus' (*pseudo* meaning 'false') penning that work, whose actual author is apparently unknown. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The specific passage to which you are referring is [*Bibliotheca* 3.10.3](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Apollod.+3.10.3), which relates the career of the physician Asclepius:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Having become a surgeon, and carried the art to a great pitch, he not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; only prevented some from dying, but even raised up the dead; for he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; had received from Athena the blood that flowed from the veins of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gorgon, and while he used the blood that flowed from the veins on the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; left side for the bane of mankind, he used the blood that flowed from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the right side for salvation, and by that means he raised the dead. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; I found some who are reported to have been raised by him, to wit:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Capaneus and Lycurgus, as Stesichorus says in the [book] *Eriphyle*;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hippolytus, as the author of the *Naupactica* reports; Tyndareus, as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Panyasis says; Hymenaeus, as the Orphics report; and Glaucus, son of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Minos, as Melesagoras relates.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Egyptian writer [Nonnus](http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Gorgones.html#Blood), in Book 44 of his epic the *Dionysiaca*, says that one of the Erinnyes collected some of Medusa's blood shortly after the Gorgon was slain. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16101" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4840" RevisionGUID="e898f43b-f6ef-4366-9b3b-9d5afed0a028" CreationDate="2018-05-01T05:27:24.473" UserId="4962" Text="&gt; Initially, Susanoo ruled the Takama no Hara (High Celestial Plain) with his sister Amaterasu but from the very beginning, Susanoo caused trouble by destroying forests and mountains and killing local inhabitants down on earth. For this reason he was banished from heaven.&#xA;&#xA;...&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Full of exuberant joy at having won his challenge with his sister, Susanoo went on another wild rampage in celebration. Once again, trees were destroyed and so too many rice-fields. Then, to add insult to injury, in a rather tasteless joke Susanoo flayed a divine horse and threw it through the roof of the palace where Amaterasu was quietly weaving. &#xA;&#xA;https://www.ancient.eu/Susanoo/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16102" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4646" RevisionGUID="769ee44e-8a01-4011-8c8e-9ec4fa983979" CreationDate="2018-05-01T09:09:12.153" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="16104" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="414" RevisionGUID="4597bed9-7887-42a1-b2b2-6a088b620685" CreationDate="2018-05-01T13:57:42.960" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|zeus|athena|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16105" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4841" RevisionGUID="5bf671eb-1c3b-4625-952d-8e43b12d9162" CreationDate="2018-05-01T14:14:47.370" UserId="4271" Text="Zeus swallowed his wife Metis, titan of Wisdom, because he feared the prophecy that a son between the two of them would overrule him. It is then said that Metis became the source of Zeus's wisdom. Perhaps it's just my undeveloped sense, but, from all that I've read, I don't really see *any* wisdom from him, like, at all.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When has he shown Wisdom in his actions?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16106" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4841" RevisionGUID="5bf671eb-1c3b-4625-952d-8e43b12d9162" CreationDate="2018-05-01T14:14:47.370" UserId="4271" Text="When has Zeus shown wisdom?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16107" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4841" RevisionGUID="5bf671eb-1c3b-4625-952d-8e43b12d9162" CreationDate="2018-05-01T14:14:47.370" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|zeus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16110" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4843" RevisionGUID="bba1fe70-687e-4c9f-888d-1b2115feb172" CreationDate="2018-05-01T15:50:15.873" UserId="4271" Text="Amaterasu-ōmikami means &quot;the great august kami (deity) who shines in the heaven.&quot; Why is it specifically august? What does the goddess name meaning august mean?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16111" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4843" RevisionGUID="bba1fe70-687e-4c9f-888d-1b2115feb172" CreationDate="2018-05-01T15:50:15.873" UserId="4271" Text="What is the meaning behind Amaterasu-ōmikami meaning what it does?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16112" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4843" RevisionGUID="bba1fe70-687e-4c9f-888d-1b2115feb172" CreationDate="2018-05-01T15:50:15.873" UserId="4271" Text="|japanese|interpretation|shinto|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16113" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4844" RevisionGUID="96574d0b-37a0-4a9b-bcb6-dc992049dca0" CreationDate="2018-05-01T21:19:04.380" UserId="2892" Text="- Re: Why &quot;august&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's a function of translation into European languages.  It comes from the Latin usage: *[augustus](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0060%3Aentry%3Daugustus1)* and was a title employed initially by Octavian, who was [deified after his death](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_cult_of_ancient_Rome).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm not finding anything on Amaterasu referencing mortal beginnings, so we can probably discard the Roman association with deified rulers, and focus on the literal meanings of the term &quot;consecrated, sacred, reverend, venerable, majestic, magnificent, etc.&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See also: [august (OED, def.1)][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/august" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16114" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4845" RevisionGUID="e98cbd92-fe7d-4eb5-bb54-f2f811f93a00" CreationDate="2018-05-01T21:26:10.030" UserId="2892" Text="When he didn't destroy the world by with lightning bolts after his run-in with Lycaon because of a prophecy that the universe would be destroyed by fire (instead using flood):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And now his thunder bolts&#xD;&#xA;would Jove wide scatter, but he feared the flames,&#xD;&#xA;unnumbered, sacred ether might ignite&#xD;&#xA;and burn the axle of the universe:&#xD;&#xA;and he remembered in the scroll of fate,&#xD;&#xA;there is a time appointed when the sea&#xD;&#xA;and earth and Heavens shall melt, and fire destroy&#xD;&#xA;the universe of mighty labour wrought. &lt;br&gt; &lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: *Metamorphoses*, P. Ovidius Naso, [1.253 ff][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm sure there are other examples of Zeus being wise, but Zeus was known for scheming more than wisdom, in my recollection. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D253" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16115" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4839" RevisionGUID="1b3d768e-b3b1-45ea-8e85-8ad8db184898" CreationDate="2018-05-01T21:34:42.613" UserId="2892" Comment="added 183 characters in body" Text="&gt; Amaterasu or Amaterasu-ōmikami is one of the major deities in the animistic Shinto religion of Japan; her full name means “Great Divinity Illuminating Heaven.” One of the world’s few female solar deities, a principal myth featuring Amaterasu depicts her conflict with her brother, Susanoo, god of storms and the sea. Angered with Susanoo because he threw a flayed horse into her weaving hall (rude), Amaterasu withdrew to a cave and brought an age of darkness upon the world. She was eventually coaxed into leaving the cave (pictured above), but Susanoo was banished from heaven. As a gesture of reconciliation, he gifted her the legendary sword Ama-no-Murakumo-no-Tsurugi (天叢雲剣, “Sword of the Gathering Clouds of Heaven”).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source: [&quot;The 10 Most Badass Goddesses Of World Mythology&quot;][1], from [Amaterasu (Encyclopedia Britannica)][2]    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The diverse roles of women in Shinto myths make it difficult for scholars to generalize about women's roles at Shinto's origin.[2] Amateratsu, the sun goddess, and Himiko, an early shaman queen of Japan, are central figures in the faith. Other goddesses include Benten, a dragon-woman of good luck, and Inari, a rice goddess who takes the form of kitsune, a vixen (female fox) at many Shinto shrines.[3] The Kojiki, a collection of stories which form Shinto practices, purport to be collected from a courtesan, Hieda no Are, and written down at the request of an Empress, Gemmei.[3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Shinto&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/18/awesome-goddesses-mythology_n_6881434.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Amaterasu" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 3.0" />
  <row Id="16118" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4846" RevisionGUID="f13b0691-f1aa-43fc-a8a0-3f2ed10708bd" CreationDate="2018-05-02T04:38:32.990" UserId="4667" Text="When you said &quot;great-grandparent&quot; I instantly thought of Lamech, descendant of Cain. Unfortunately my memory was wrong — Lamech was Cain's great-*great-great*-grandson, not Cain's great-grandson.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It turns out that there *is* a Talmudic story that involves a fatal interaction between Lamech and his great-great-great-grandfather Cain. [Wikipedia:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamech_(descendant_of_Cain))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Talmud and Midrash present an extensive legend, told, for example, by Rashi,&lt;sup&gt;[11th century](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashi)&lt;/sup&gt; in which Lamech first loses his sight from age, and had to be led by Tubal-Cain, the seventh generation from Cain. Tubal-Cain saw in the distance something that he first took for an animal, but it was actually Cain (still alive, due to the extensive life span of the antediluvians) whom Lamech had accidentally killed with an arrow. When they discovered who it was, Lamech, in sorrow, clapped his hands together, which (for an unclear reason) kills Tubal-Cain. In consequence, Lamech's wives desert him. A similar legend is preserved in the pseudepigraphic Second Book of Adam and Eve,&lt;sup&gt;[sixth century?](https://amzn.to/2JJjPXy)&lt;/sup&gt; Chapter XIII; in this version Tubal-Cain is not named, but is instead referred to as &quot;the young shepherd.&quot; After Lamech claps his hands he strikes the young shepherd on the head. To ensure his death, he then smashed his head with a rock.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Primary-ish source:](https://www.sefaria.org/Rashi_on_Genesis.4.23.1?vhe=Wikitext&amp;lang=bi&amp;with=all&amp;lang2=en)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; HEAR MY VOICE — For his wives separated from him because he had killed Cain and Tubal-Cain, his own son. Lamech was blind and Tubal-Cain used to lead him. The latter saw Cain and thought him to be an animal. He therefore told his father to draw the bow, and **thus Lamech killed him. As soon as he learned that it was his forefather Cain,** he smote his hands together, struck his son between them and so killed him too. His wives thereupon separated from him, and he endeavoured to appease them, saying שמען קולי “Hear my voice”— obey me and return to me: for the man I slew — was he slain by my wounding? i. e. did I wound him with premeditation, that the wound should be called by my name (i. e. attributed to me); and the child that I slew — was it slain by my blow? (i. e. by a blow directed intentionally by me?) [Rashi here inserts the word בתמיה which he uses frequently to direct that the preceding words should be read as a question.] Did I not act inadvertently and not with premeditation? This was not my wound, nor was this my blow!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, this is technically not an answer yet (the difference in generations is too great), *and* the story was probably made up in the 11th century A.D. so it's not very old; but I bet there's a similar Old Testament story waiting to be found here...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Oho! Notably, **Enoch was the great-grandfather of Noah**... and indeed the [Book of Enoch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch)&lt;sup&gt;first century B.C.!&lt;/sup&gt; features at least one conversation between these two figures, in Chapters 64 through 66-ish.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Primary-ish source:](http://reluctant-messenger.com/1enoch61-105.htm)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In those days Noah saw that the earth became inclined, and that destruction approached.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then he lifted up his feet, and went to the ends of the earth, to the dwelling of his great-grandfather Enoch.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Noah cried with a bitter voice, Hear me; hear me; hear me: three times. And he said, Tell me what is transacting upon the earth; for the earth labours, and is violently shaken. Surely I shall perish with it.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; After this there was a great perturbation on earth, and a voice was heard from heaven. [Noah] fell down on [his] face, when [Noah's] great-grandfather Enoch came and stood by [him].  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Enoch] said to [Noah], Why have you cried out to me with a bitter cry and lamentation?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16119" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="323" RevisionGUID="03a8d24b-bab2-4923-aa8d-63161e4164e6" CreationDate="2018-05-02T10:42:48.850" UserId="5022" Comment="Corrected spelling" Text="After Osiris is tricked and killed by Seth he is dismembered, and it is up to his wife Isis to recover all the pieces and bring him back to life. There is something that always caught my attention about the way she does this, since there is a piece [she can't recover][1] (Osiris' penis).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One piece only she did not recover, for it had been eaten by certain impious fishes; and their kind were accursed ever afterwards, and no Egyptian would touch or eat them. [...] She gathered the pieces together, rejoined them by magic, and by magic made a likeness of the missing member so that Osiris was complete.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have always wondered at the significance of having a missing piece, and that this piece is the one used to conceive. I have read several slightly different versions of this myth in which she is able to reconstruct it with magic or able to have a posthumous union with her husband and conceive in spite of the missing piece.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Could somebody clarify what is the importance of not being able to recover all the pieces of Osiris and the significance of the missing piece being Osiris' manhood?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]: http://www.egyptianmyths.net/mythisis.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16120" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="323" RevisionGUID="03a8d24b-bab2-4923-aa8d-63161e4164e6" CreationDate="2018-05-02T10:42:48.850" UserId="5022" Comment="Corrected spelling" Text="What is the significance of this part in the myth of the resurrection of Osiris?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16121" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="323" RevisionGUID="03a8d24b-bab2-4923-aa8d-63161e4164e6" CreationDate="2018-05-02T10:42:48.850" Comment="Proposed by 5022 approved by 967, 666 edit id of 1635" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16122" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4847" RevisionGUID="2e0ac36c-72ee-4f8d-addb-b34166090643" CreationDate="2018-05-02T15:01:05.723" UserId="3560" Text="While reading the story of Minos and the Minotaur, I noticed that both of them have nearly identical origins:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Both are sired by a white bull (a transformed Zeus or a gift from Poseidon)&#xD;&#xA; - Their mother is royalty and seduced (Princess Europa or Queen Pasiphae)&#xD;&#xA; - Their step-father is Cretan royalty (King Asterion or King Minos)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are other points of similarity (and duplication) as well:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Another name for the Minotaur is [Asterion][1], after Minos' step-father.&#xD;&#xA; - Minos himself [was speculated by later writers][2] to have been two kings who were conflated in myth, with the cruel king being the grandson of the good king.&#xD;&#xA; - Both the Cretan Bull and Zeus in bull form are traditionally associated with the constellation Taurus, and the Minotaur's name Asterion (&quot;starry&quot;) suggests a connection as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Considering that the mythology was passed down orally and thus subject to embellishment as time wore on, I wonder if the stories of Minos and the Minotaur are actually duplication and modification of the same original story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asterion_(king_of_Crete)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minos#The_literary_Minos" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16123" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4847" RevisionGUID="2e0ac36c-72ee-4f8d-addb-b34166090643" CreationDate="2018-05-02T15:01:05.723" UserId="3560" Text="Are Minos and the Minotaur duplication of the same figure?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16124" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4847" RevisionGUID="2e0ac36c-72ee-4f8d-addb-b34166090643" CreationDate="2018-05-02T15:01:05.723" UserId="3560" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16125" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="4847" RevisionGUID="e961b101-89ec-4031-96f9-4248beaa16da" CreationDate="2018-05-02T16:51:40.237" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16126" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4848" RevisionGUID="b810fa9a-c3c5-4f9c-baf0-019ed1110ff6" CreationDate="2018-05-02T20:14:26.430" UserId="5023" Text="Just need an answer about the two gods Mithra and Varuna, their situation actually,...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know that Mithra isn't worshiped at all, but I read and suspected personally that his name still remain in the &quot;Indian subconscious&quot;, where it seem that he became an simple word related to friendship or something else like that (Mithram or Mithran ?). So an confirmation of this survivalism is hoped,...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For Varuna, I just want to learn more about him, if he was related to Justice, I remember that his worship is limited today, and that he is primarly associated with Water, Rivers, Sea,... But I want also to know if he was associated with the Night, maybe he was the dichotomy of Mithra, that I associate with the Sun and the Light,...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm focused particularly to these two gods, because i readed that a French anthropologist considered them as a &quot;couple&quot;, Mithra associated with the notion of &quot;Agreement&quot; (Contrat in French) and Varuna with the &quot;Oath&quot; (Serment in French). This idea sound a bit true for me, because with the little knowledge that I have in this subject, Mithra appeared to me as a god &quot;Friend of the Human kind&quot;,... Varuna, like I knew about him (a kind of poem/song which stant like a praise or more a complain about his cruelty, notably for the floods,...), appear as a terrifiant god,...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All these questions for an student of secondary for his homework of Philosophy about Justice,...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sorry for my bad English (made with the help of Google Translate) and Please only answers which are academically correct,...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks for your help :)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16127" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4848" RevisionGUID="b810fa9a-c3c5-4f9c-baf0-019ed1110ff6" CreationDate="2018-05-02T20:14:26.430" UserId="5023" Text="News from Mithra and Varuna" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16128" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4848" RevisionGUID="b810fa9a-c3c5-4f9c-baf0-019ed1110ff6" CreationDate="2018-05-02T20:14:26.430" UserId="5023" Text="|roman|hindu|interpretation|translation|persian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16130" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4830" RevisionGUID="87e1476c-3241-4544-a5b7-594a06dbeef5" CreationDate="2018-05-03T07:06:31.713" UserId="4271" Comment="added 127 characters in body" Text="Questions pertaining the rustic Greek god of nature and the only Greek god to die. He is portrayed in the form of a satyr/faun." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16131" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4830" RevisionGUID="87e1476c-3241-4544-a5b7-594a06dbeef5" CreationDate="2018-05-03T07:06:31.713" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 967, 2774 edit id of 1634" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16133" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4848" RevisionGUID="70495b49-32d6-49d8-8b1b-683522cc49af" CreationDate="2018-05-03T17:06:41.687" UserId="2807" Comment="Minor spelling revision" Text="Just need an answer about the two gods Mithra and Varuna, their situation actually.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know that Mithra isn't worshiped at all, but I read and suspect personally that his name still remains in the &quot;Indian subconscious&quot;, where it seems that he became a simple word related to friendship or something else like that (Mithram or Mithran?). So a confirmation of this survivalism is hoped.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For Varuna, I just want to learn more about him, if he was related to Justice, I remember that his worship is limited today, and that he is primarily associated with Water, Rivers, Sea... But I want also to know if he was associated with the Night, maybe he was the dichotomy of Mithra, that I associate with the Sun and the Light.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm focused particularly to these two gods, because I've read that a French anthropologist considered them as a &quot;couple&quot;, Mithra associated with the notion of &quot;Agreement&quot; (*Contrat* in French) and Varuna with the &quot;Oath&quot; (*Serment* in French). This idea sounds a bit true for me, because with the little knowledge that I have in this subject, Mithra appeared to me as a god &quot;Friend of the Human kind&quot;. Varuna, like I knew about him (a kind of poem/song which stant like a praise or more a complain about his cruelty, notably for the floods), appears as a terrifiant god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All these questions for a student of secondary for his homework of Philosophy about Justice.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sorry for my bad English (made with the help of Google Translate) and please only answers which are academically correct.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks for your help :)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16134" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4848" RevisionGUID="70495b49-32d6-49d8-8b1b-683522cc49af" CreationDate="2018-05-03T17:06:41.687" Comment="Proposed by 2807 approved by 5023 edit id of 1636" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16135" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4848" RevisionGUID="f77b8817-dffe-4d4c-bbd9-f2faf17a6972" CreationDate="2018-05-03T18:12:41.513" UserId="2892" Comment="added a link to the Mitra–Varuna wiki" Text="Just need an answer about the two gods [Mithra and Varuna][1], their situation actually.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know that Mithra isn't worshiped at all, but I read and suspect personally that his name still remains in the &quot;Indian subconscious&quot;, where it seems that he became a simple word related to friendship or something else like that (Mithram or Mithran?). So a confirmation of this survivalism is hoped.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For Varuna, I just want to learn more about him, if he was related to Justice, I remember that his worship is limited today, and that he is primarily associated with Water, Rivers, Sea... But I want also to know if he was associated with the Night, maybe he was the dichotomy of Mithra, that I associate with the Sun and the Light.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm focused particularly to these two gods, because I've read that a French anthropologist considered them as a &quot;couple&quot;, Mithra associated with the notion of &quot;Agreement&quot; (*Contrat* in French) and Varuna with the &quot;Oath&quot; (*Serment* in French). This idea sounds a bit true for me, because with the little knowledge that I have in this subject, Mithra appeared to me as a god &quot;Friend of the Human kind&quot;. Varuna, like I knew about him (a kind of poem/song which stant like a praise or more a complain about his cruelty, notably for the floods), appears as a terrifiant god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All these questions for a student of secondary for his homework of Philosophy about Justice.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sorry for my bad English (made with the help of Google Translate) and please only answers which are academically correct.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks for your help :)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitra%E2%80%93Varuna" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16136" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4850" RevisionGUID="92dd6ad2-54b0-4ed9-b580-c2468fc9f486" CreationDate="2018-05-03T19:26:26.343" UserId="4271" Text="Most of us know the story behind the seasons in Greek Mythology, but just to recap...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hades kidnapped the daughter of Demeter, Persephone. Demeter went in search for her, lead by Hecate's torches. She let the cosmos (land of humans) waste away untended and without fertility. Eventually, Demeter is told by Helios that he daughter was taken by the King of the Underworld. She threatens Zeus that if her daughter is not returned, she will forever leave the cosmos to waste (meaning no more humans to give offerings to the gods). Zeus then sends the emissary, Hermes, to go to the Underworld and see Persephone back.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meanwhile, in the Underworld, Persephone is offered some pomegranate and she eats one third (three seeds, half, it varies) of the pomegranate. Eating the food of the Underworld bound her to the Underworld. But a compromise was made that Persephone would spent a third of the year (others say half) with Hades and the other time with her mother.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there another myth that has someone eating Underworld food?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16137" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4850" RevisionGUID="92dd6ad2-54b0-4ed9-b580-c2468fc9f486" CreationDate="2018-05-03T19:26:26.343" UserId="4271" Text="Does anyone else sample the food of the Underworld?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16138" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4850" RevisionGUID="92dd6ad2-54b0-4ed9-b580-c2468fc9f486" CreationDate="2018-05-03T19:26:26.343" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|underworld|hades|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16139" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4851" RevisionGUID="15ff86e7-b104-427a-8eab-d6a3f1b06bc8" CreationDate="2018-05-03T19:38:01.697" UserId="4271" Text="I have always known it as the Fates creating a Tapestry of Fate. But an answer to a [previous question][1] states that Ovid called it a scroll of fate. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; ... and he remembered in the scroll of fate, there is a time appointed when...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it just Ovid who calls it a scroll? Or is he referencing something apart from the Fates altogether? Several prophetic deities exist. Is Ovid talking about one of their prophecies?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/4841/when-has-zeus-shown-wisdom/4845?noredirect=1#comment10520_4845" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16140" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4851" RevisionGUID="15ff86e7-b104-427a-8eab-d6a3f1b06bc8" CreationDate="2018-05-03T19:38:01.697" UserId="4271" Text="Is it a tapestry or a scroll?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16141" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4851" RevisionGUID="15ff86e7-b104-427a-8eab-d6a3f1b06bc8" CreationDate="2018-05-03T19:38:01.697" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|apocalypse|fates|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16142" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4848" RevisionGUID="967a81de-a507-4485-a448-0b3d355b3ba7" CreationDate="2018-05-03T20:55:02.353" UserId="2892" Comment="added 2 characters in body; edited title" Text="Just need an answer about the two gods [Mithra and Varuna][1], their situation actually.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know that Mithra isn't worshiped at all, but I read and suspect personally that his name still remains in the &quot;Indian subconscious&quot;, where it seems that he became a simple word related to friendship or something else like that (Mithram or Mithran?). So a confirmation of this survivalism is hoped.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For Varuna, I just want to learn more about him, if he was related to Justice, I remember that his worship is limited today, and that he is primarily associated with Water, Rivers, Sea... But I want also to know if he was associated with the Night, maybe he was the dichotomy of Mithra, that I associate with the Sun and the Light.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm focused particularly to these two gods, because I've read that a French anthropologist considered them as a &quot;couple&quot;, Mithra associated with the notion of &quot;Agreement&quot; (*Contrat* in French) and Varuna with the &quot;Oath&quot; (*Serment* in French). This idea sounds a bit true for me, because with the little knowledge that I have in this subject, Mithra appeared to me as a god &quot;Friend of the Human kind&quot;. Varuna, like I knew about him (a kind of poem/song which stant like a praise or more a complain about his cruelty, notably for the floods), appears as a terrifiant god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All these questions for a student of secondary for his homework of Philosophy about Justice.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Sorry for my bad English (made with the help of Google Translate) and please only answers which are academically correct.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks for your help :)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitra%E2%80%93Varuna" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16143" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4848" RevisionGUID="967a81de-a507-4485-a448-0b3d355b3ba7" CreationDate="2018-05-03T20:55:02.353" UserId="2892" Comment="added 2 characters in body; edited title" Text="Relationship of Mithra and Varuna" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16144" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4852" RevisionGUID="cdd33199-ded9-4521-ad14-19a65d86097f" CreationDate="2018-05-03T22:47:12.717" UserId="967" Text="Well I'm not sure this counts but the story of Semele, where she gets destroyed by Zeus's full glory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[Thyone's][1] mortal name was Semele. She was a Theban princess loved by the god Zeus. When his wife Hera learned of their affair, she tricked the girl into having Zeus swear an oath to appear before her in his full glory. Bound by his pledge the god did so and Semele was consumed by the fire of his lightning-bolts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(I'm sure if you're on this site, you know about this story well enough.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The death of his mother did not really affect him as far as I know, he grew up under the influence of two other foster parents without knowledge of his parents, which had other problems, also caused by Hera, and it induced his ability of madness.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 3. 29 - 30 :*&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Zeus loosened the stitches and gave birth to Dionysos, whom he entrusted to Hermes. Hermes took him to Ino and Athamas, and persuaded them to bring him up as a girl. Incensed, Hera inflicted madness on them. As for Zeus, he escaped Hera's anger by changing Dionysos into a baby goat. Hermes took him to the Nymphai of Asian Nysa, whom Zeus in later times places among the stars and named the Hyades.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Probably not a sufficient answer at all, but whatever&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/Thyone.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16145" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4853" RevisionGUID="fec242df-7604-4dfc-bdb2-9db816a2e693" CreationDate="2018-05-03T22:54:25.193" UserId="4271" Text="The riddle we all know is- What creature walks on 4 legs in the morning, 2 in the afternoon and 3 in the evening.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [second][1] riddle, and possibly older riddle, it thus- There exists two sisters. The first gives birth to the second and she in turn gives birth to the first. Who and two sisters?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is (modernly) explained the he arrived at the answer because of his own lameness (his father tethered and pirced his legs together as an infant, making him unable to crawl). Or he is [very observant of humans.][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But what explanation could explain how Oedipus got his answer about the second riddle I mentioned?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphinx&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&amp;source=web&amp;rct=j&amp;url=https://philarchive.org/archive/EDWHDO&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjYr7v2zuraAhUR9WMKHU47C_sQFggnMAE&amp;usg=AOvVaw3hWCYiktabjOW5wxF2hZ1g" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16146" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4853" RevisionGUID="fec242df-7604-4dfc-bdb2-9db816a2e693" CreationDate="2018-05-03T22:54:25.193" UserId="4271" Text="What were author's explanation for Oedipus solving the more ancient of the riddles?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16147" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4853" RevisionGUID="fec242df-7604-4dfc-bdb2-9db816a2e693" CreationDate="2018-05-03T22:54:25.193" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|sphinx|oedipus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16148" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4854" RevisionGUID="076ad78f-4caa-48b6-b47e-a1518681a832" CreationDate="2018-05-03T23:34:03.213" UserId="4271" Text="I have [previously asked a question][1] about the Virgin of Cumae, or the Cumaean Sybil, so the info will, for the most part, just be a memorize and type deal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Virgin of Cumae was a priestess with the gift of prophecy. She would write her prophecies on oak leaves an arrange them. But, when the wind blew them out of order, she did not put them back together.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One day, Apollo came down to declare his love and offered her a gift, in exchange for her virginity. She picked up a pile of sand and asked for the years of the gains of sand she held. Apollo complied, but later, the Cumaean Sybil repealed her promise and kept her virginity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She kept the long life and the power of prophecy, for it was he own. But, Apollo did nothing to keep her beautiful throughout her long life. Her body withered and eventually (somewhere down the line of the tapestry) made her way to the Underworld, still living.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Troy was sacked, Aeneas escaped. On his journey, he met the Cumaean Sybil and delivered her back to the world of the living.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She is said to have lived a thousand years. As she withered, she became so small, she was eventually kept in a jar (an ampulla jar) until only her voice remained.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who kept her in the ampulla?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/3237/is-the-cumaean-sybil-known-by-any-other-name" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16149" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4854" RevisionGUID="076ad78f-4caa-48b6-b47e-a1518681a832" CreationDate="2018-05-03T23:34:03.213" UserId="4271" Text="Who kept the Cumaean Sybil in a jar (ampulla)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16150" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4854" RevisionGUID="076ad78f-4caa-48b6-b47e-a1518681a832" CreationDate="2018-05-03T23:34:03.213" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|roman|trojan-war|apollo|oracle|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16151" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4855" RevisionGUID="30cba352-8949-4b39-95b5-aeac9c95920d" CreationDate="2018-05-04T12:19:30.137" UserId="5030" Text="I'm not to sure about the story of the Dragonborn and Alduin, but I know that Alduin was an actual dragon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Alduin's actual name in Norse Mythology was Niðhöggr (Bethesda also got the Miasma off of Niðhöggr)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you search up Niðhöggr then you'll be sure to find it." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16152" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="4853" RevisionGUID="18fde873-4d7e-4f0e-b7cf-bb14d3bdf52f" CreationDate="2018-05-04T12:21:16.560" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|oedipus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16154" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3243" RevisionGUID="2ffe81a9-cc59-46dd-989c-a11ae142d2c2" CreationDate="2018-05-04T17:51:51.860" UserId="2892" Comment="This answer needed a link to the text from the Aeneid and a translation of the Latin.  I've made the additions, and given a short explanation of the Latin title used by Virgil" Text="There have actually been many names from almost as many sources. In the [*Aeneid*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneid), Virgil described the priestess as &quot;**Deiphobe**, daughter of Glaucus&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ni iam praemissus Achtes  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Adforet, atque una Phoebi Triviaeque sacerdos,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Deiphobe Glauci, fatur quae talia regi:  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'Non hoc ista sibi tempus spectacula poscit;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'Nunc grege de intacto septem mactare iuvencos  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'Praestiterit, totidem lectas de more bidentes.'&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Aeneid [Book 6, 36 ff][1] (translation in endnote)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Description of Greece*, [Pausanias](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pausanias_(geographer)), citing a Cumaean historian, named her &quot;**Demo**&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The next woman to give oracles in the same way, according to Hyperochus of Cumae, a historian, was called Demo, and came from Cumae in the territory of the Opici. The Cumaeans can point to no oracle given by this woman, but they show a small stone urn in a sanctuary of Apollo, in which they say are placed the bones of the Sibyl.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [*Etymologiae*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymologiae), Isidore of Seville claims the Cumaean oracle is called &quot;**Amalthaea**&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Septima Cumana, nomine Amalthea, quae novem libros adtulit Tarquinio Prisco, in quibus erant decreta Romana conscripta. Ipsa est et Cumaea, de qua Vergilius&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Isidore may have traced this name from the [*Antiquitates Rerum Humanarum et Divinarum*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiquitates_rerum_humanarum_et_divinarum), in which Varro reputedly gave the names for the Cumaean Sibyl: &quot;**Herophile**&quot; and &quot;**Demophile**&quot; in addition to Amalthaea. This work is now lost, but his Sibylline list is preserved for us by Lactantius in [*The Divine Institutes*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Divine_Institutes):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The seventh was of Cumæ, by name Amalthæa, who is termed by some Herophile, or Demophile, and they say that she brought nine books to the king Tarquinius Priscus, and asked for them three hundred philippics, and that the king refused so great a price, and derided the madness of the woman; that she, in the sight of the king, burnt three of the books, and demanded the same price for those which were left.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Martianus Capella](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martianus_Capella) however claims the Cumaean and Erthraean were one, &quot;**Symmachia**&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; You know that there were not ten of these sibyls, as they say, but two — namely, Herophila, a Trojan, daughter of Marmesus; and Symmachia daughter of Hippotensis, who was born at Erythrae but prophesied at Cumae&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [*De Mirabilibus Auscultationibus*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Marvellous_Things_Heard), it is claimed that &quot;some&quot; called her &quot;**Melankraira**&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At Cumae in Italy there is shown, it appears, a subterranean bed-chamber of the prophetic Sibyl, who, they say, was of a very great age, and had always remained a virgin, being a native of Erythrae, but by some of the inhabitants of Italy called a native of Cumae, and by some named Melancraera.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lastly, the [scholia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scholia) on Plato's []() mentions that the Cumaean Sibyl has been called &quot;**Taraxandra**&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Cumaean sibyl had once the apotropaic name of Taraxandra, 'she who alarms men' (Schol. Plat. Phaedr. p. 244B), which suggests the severity of a guardian at a gate.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Knight, William Francis Jackson. *Cumaean Gates: A Reference of the Sixth Aeneid to the Initiation Pattern*. Blackwell, 1936.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;________________________________________________________&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Translation of Aeneid, Book 6, lines 36-40:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But now Achates comes, and by his side&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Deiphobe, the Sibyl, Glaucus' child.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Thus to the prince she spoke :&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;“Is this thine hour&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;To stand and wonder? Rather go obtain&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;From young unbroken herd the bullocks seven,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And seven yearling ewes, our wonted way.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Editor's Note: *Phoebi Triviaeque sacerdos* is translated simply as &quot;the Sibyl&quot; but the literal translation might be &quot;the (sacred) priestess of the temple of Apollo&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Triviaeque][2] seems to have double meaning--both a place where 3 roads meet, associated with both Hecate and Diana, but here specifically meaning &quot;(the Lake of Diana), a lake in [Latium][3], near [Aricia][4], now [Lago di Nemi][5]&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0055%3Abook%3D6%3Acard%3D14&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aentry%3Dtrivius&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latium&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariccia&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Nemi" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16156" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3243" RevisionGUID="88e64481-6c47-40fd-b2f5-339ca92a2452" CreationDate="2018-05-04T17:59:13.337" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 6 characters in body" Text="There have actually been many names from almost as many sources. In the [*Aeneid*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneid), Virgil described the priestess as &quot;**Deiphobe**, daughter of Glaucus&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ni iam praemissus Achtes  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Adforet, atque una Phoebi Triviaeque sacerdos,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Deiphobe Glauci, fatur quae talia regi:  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'Non hoc ista sibi tempus spectacula poscit;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'Nunc grege de intacto septem mactare iuvencos  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'Praestiterit, totidem lectas de more bidentes.'&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Aeneid [Book 6, 36 ff][1] (translation in endnote)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Description of Greece*, [Pausanias](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pausanias_(geographer)), citing a Cumaean historian, named her &quot;**Demo**&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The next woman to give oracles in the same way, according to Hyperochus of Cumae, a historian, was called Demo, and came from Cumae in the territory of the Opici. The Cumaeans can point to no oracle given by this woman, but they show a small stone urn in a sanctuary of Apollo, in which they say are placed the bones of the Sibyl.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [*Etymologiae*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymologiae), Isidore of Seville claims the Cumaean oracle is called &quot;**Amalthaea**&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Septima Cumana, nomine Amalthea, quae novem libros adtulit Tarquinio Prisco, in quibus erant decreta Romana conscripta. Ipsa est et Cumaea, de qua Vergilius&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Isidore may have traced this name from the [*Antiquitates Rerum Humanarum et Divinarum*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiquitates_rerum_humanarum_et_divinarum), in which Varro reputedly gave the names for the Cumaean Sibyl: &quot;**Herophile**&quot; and &quot;**Demophile**&quot; in addition to Amalthaea. This work is now lost, but his Sibylline list is preserved for us by Lactantius in [*The Divine Institutes*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Divine_Institutes):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The seventh was of Cumæ, by name Amalthæa, who is termed by some Herophile, or Demophile, and they say that she brought nine books to the king Tarquinius Priscus, and asked for them three hundred philippics, and that the king refused so great a price, and derided the madness of the woman; that she, in the sight of the king, burnt three of the books, and demanded the same price for those which were left.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Martianus Capella](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martianus_Capella) however claims the Cumaean and Erthraean were one, &quot;**Symmachia**&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; You know that there were not ten of these sibyls, as they say, but two — namely, Herophila, a Trojan, daughter of Marmesus; and Symmachia daughter of Hippotensis, who was born at Erythrae but prophesied at Cumae&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [*De Mirabilibus Auscultationibus*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Marvellous_Things_Heard), it is claimed that &quot;some&quot; called her &quot;**Melankraira**&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At Cumae in Italy there is shown, it appears, a subterranean bed-chamber of the prophetic Sibyl, who, they say, was of a very great age, and had always remained a virgin, being a native of Erythrae, but by some of the inhabitants of Italy called a native of Cumae, and by some named Melancraera.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lastly, the [scholia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scholia) on Plato's []() mentions that the Cumaean Sibyl has been called &quot;**Taraxandra**&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Cumaean sibyl had once the apotropaic name of Taraxandra, 'she who alarms men' (Schol. Plat. Phaedr. p. 244B), which suggests the severity of a guardian at a gate.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Knight, William Francis Jackson. *Cumaean Gates: A Reference of the Sixth Aeneid to the Initiation Pattern*. Blackwell, 1936.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;________________________________________________________&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Translation of Aeneid, Book 6, lines 36-40:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But now Achates comes, and by his side&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Deiphobe, the Sibyl, Glaucus' child.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Thus to the prince she spoke :&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;“Is this thine hour&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;To stand and wonder? Rather go obtain&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;From young unbroken herd the bullocks seven,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And seven yearling ewes, our wonted way.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Editor's Note: *Phoebi Triviaeque sacerdos* is translated simply as &quot;the Sibyl&quot; but the literal translation might be &quot;the (sacred) priestess of the temple of Apollo at Nemi&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Triviaeque][2] may have secondary allusion--a place where 3 roads meet, associated with both Hecate and Diana--but here specifically meaning &quot;(the Lake of Diana), a lake in [Latium][3], near [Aricia][4], now [Lago di Nemi][5]&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0055%3Abook%3D6%3Acard%3D14&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aentry%3Dtrivius&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latium&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariccia&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Nemi" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16157" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4671" RevisionGUID="e0f40a75-d261-4dfe-a5f7-df0ca8fbc1df" CreationDate="2018-05-04T18:35:43.220" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="16158" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4680" RevisionGUID="bc04be5f-cc53-4d56-8696-b415ddaa616e" CreationDate="2018-05-04T23:36:46.323" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="16160" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4856" RevisionGUID="544b86bf-d4e8-40b8-aa55-5474fffed8b4" CreationDate="2018-05-05T06:30:43.957" UserId="1511" Text="Did Freya's necklace have special powers to it? She wanted the jewel so much, I've heard she bedded several dwarves in order to have it, so it must have been unique. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16161" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4856" RevisionGUID="544b86bf-d4e8-40b8-aa55-5474fffed8b4" CreationDate="2018-05-05T06:30:43.957" UserId="1511" Text="What were the magical powers of Freya's necklace Brísingamen?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16162" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4856" RevisionGUID="544b86bf-d4e8-40b8-aa55-5474fffed8b4" CreationDate="2018-05-05T06:30:43.957" UserId="1511" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16163" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="4856" RevisionGUID="a879a50d-2208-4f0f-b4c7-fada33831932" CreationDate="2018-05-05T14:15:36.683" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|god-items|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16164" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4857" RevisionGUID="51d68b04-15e9-4566-9ec3-8344c3156c11" CreationDate="2018-05-05T15:09:23.343" UserId="4271" Text="[Philomela][1] was a princess of Athens and the sister of [Procne][2], Queen of Thrace (or at least married to the [king of Thrace).][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the fifth year of their marriage, Procne expressed a desire to see her sister. Tereus went to go get Philomela and *lusted* for her. On the way back, her forced her into a log cabin in the wood and violated her. The king warned her to keep quiet, but when she displayed difiantcy, he cut out he tongue and held he captive in the cabin. When he got back to Thrace, he told his wife her sister was dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*This is the part where plot holes start coming up.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Philomela made a tapestry of Tereus's crime. Somehow Procne received it and was so angry, she killed their son Itys and served it to Tereus. After he ate, **both** sisters presented Itys head to Tereus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tereus gets angry, grabs an ax and chases them. The sisters prey to the gods for help and they all get transformed into different birds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How did her sister get the tapestry if she was held captive in the cabin? How did her sister get free?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philomela&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procne&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tereus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16165" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4857" RevisionGUID="51d68b04-15e9-4566-9ec3-8344c3156c11" CreationDate="2018-05-05T15:09:23.343" UserId="4271" Text="How does Philomela get the tapestry to Procne?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16166" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4857" RevisionGUID="51d68b04-15e9-4566-9ec3-8344c3156c11" CreationDate="2018-05-05T15:09:23.343" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16167" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4858" RevisionGUID="b62f3605-2fe4-425e-850f-60408e393490" CreationDate="2018-05-05T16:13:31.410" UserId="4271" Text="Hubris is a Greek term that means excessive/deadly pride or arrogance before the gods. She is also a [personified daemon.][1] Soon after one succumbs to Hubris, Nemesis enacts retribution.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since hubris is such a bad thing, did the Greeks have a term opposite of it?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Hybris.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16168" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4858" RevisionGUID="b62f3605-2fe4-425e-850f-60408e393490" CreationDate="2018-05-05T16:13:31.410" UserId="4271" Text="Does hubris have an opposite?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16169" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4858" RevisionGUID="b62f3605-2fe4-425e-850f-60408e393490" CreationDate="2018-05-05T16:13:31.410" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|concepts|daemon|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16170" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4859" RevisionGUID="695bfe46-394d-4be1-b2a5-7619a66de02e" CreationDate="2018-05-05T16:13:31.410" UserId="4271" Text="The opposite of Hubris is Sophrosyne. It is considered an important quality to have and is expressed in opposition to the concept of hubris. The meaning of the concept Sophrosyne is, &quot;an ideal of excellence of character and soundness of mind.&quot; No language has an equal word to Sophrosyne.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When one has Sophrosyne, it leads to other qualities of humble importance. Qualities are such: temperance, moderation, prudence, purity, and self-control.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The word Sophrosyne sign was used in Plato's writing and my have been influenced by [Heraclitus. His fragment 112 states][1], &quot;Sophrosyne is the greatest virtue, and wisdom is speaking and acting the trust, paying heed to the nature of things.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sophrosyne is also a [personified daemon][2]. She was released from Pandora's jar and left the cosmos on her way to Olympus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophrosyne&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Sophrosyne.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16171" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4860" RevisionGUID="70398251-b45c-463a-bfb9-c3161489ea52" CreationDate="2018-05-05T17:03:09.467" UserId="4271" Text="In research of past questions, I came across [Eleos][1]. Eleos is the personified daemon (lesser/inferior god) of piety, mercy, clemency (leanientcy), and compassion. She was always depicted as a young woman wearing a blue veil or dress. She was only recognized as a deity in Athens. But is one wished to be allied with Athens, they were to approach Eleos's statue/alter as a suppliant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Her Roman form was [Clementia][2]. In 44, it's believed that Caesar had the Roman State erect a temple to her as he was keen to demonstrate this virtue. After that, not much is known.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did other Greek/Roman cities/states have a deity they exclusively worshipped or recognized?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleos&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clementia" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16172" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4860" RevisionGUID="70398251-b45c-463a-bfb9-c3161489ea52" CreationDate="2018-05-05T17:03:09.467" UserId="4271" Text="What deities did only one city/state recognize?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16173" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4860" RevisionGUID="70398251-b45c-463a-bfb9-c3161489ea52" CreationDate="2018-05-05T17:03:09.467" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|roman|daemon|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16174" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4861" RevisionGUID="79b69295-a4c4-4975-9741-7f3ee57601e5" CreationDate="2018-05-05T19:36:22.540" UserId="666" Text="**No magical powers**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At least none that are recorded. The *Brísingamen* is only named a few times: In *[Þrymskviða][1]* in the *Poetic Edda*, where Thor is disguised as Freya and wears it, and by Snorri, who uses it as a *[kenning][2]* for Freya, &quot;owner of Brísingamen&quot; (*Skáldskaparmál*, 20) and Loki, &quot;thief of Brísingamen&quot; (*Skáldskaparmál*, 16). There are a few more texts that alludes to some necklace of Freya's, but they don't positively identify it with Brisingamen.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Chief of these is the *[Sörla þáttr][3]*, a short story in *Flateyjarbók* in which we are told that Freya vwanted to buy a necklace from four dwarfs, and that they refused any other payment but that she should spend one night with each of them. As the *Flateyjarbók* was compiled by two priests, and the story is in other ways quite critical of Freya, it is a bit unclear to what extent the details should be believed. It does go on to say that Loki stole the necklace on behalf of Odin, and that he had Freya perform a magical feat to get it back.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This ties in with another, much more fragmentary story in the poem *[Húsdrápa][4]*, which we have through Snorri, who cites it in *[Skáldskaparmál][5]* (part 16). It tells of how Heimdall and Loki, in the sahpe of seals, fought over &quot;*hafnýra fögru*&quot;. Directly translated, this becomes the &quot;beautiful seakidney&quot;; *hafnýra* also appears to have been an amulet worn by women for easier birth. A *kenning* for Heimdall (*Skáldskaparmál*, 8) recorded by Snorri calls him &quot;The retriever of Freya's jewellery&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And that is really all there is that are told about Brísingamen in Norse mythology. The latter half, &quot;men&quot;, is a word for a torque or necklace, so it seems the name means &quot;necklace of the Brisings&quot;, which is supported by a mention in *Beowulf* (line 1199) of *Brōsinga mene*. As it is a dwarf-made necklace, we can suppose it to be quite superior to most jewellery, but there are no mentions of any special powers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apart from the sources quoted above, I've found Britt-Mari Näsströms *Nordiska gudinnor* useful, as Well as Gro Steinsland, *Fornnordisk religion*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Erymskvi%C3%B0a&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenning&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%B6rla_%C3%BE%C3%A1ttr&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%BAsdr%C3%A1pa&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sk%C3%A1ldskaparm%C3%A1l" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16175" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1548" RevisionGUID="956204f1-072b-4723-b33b-63553c117098" CreationDate="2018-05-05T23:54:29.277" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|comparative|demi-gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16176" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3199" RevisionGUID="ed1095ce-a955-4af5-8e46-55ce0cbea85e" CreationDate="2018-05-06T02:26:43.180" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|japanese|shinto|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16177" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1941" RevisionGUID="cb03f6ec-2830-4f46-ba4c-35a805755cee" CreationDate="2018-05-06T02:28:54.303" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|japanese|shinto|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16178" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1488" RevisionGUID="7418e725-ee74-400a-9f9a-7aaf98a81d04" CreationDate="2018-05-06T02:30:09.113" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|folklore|japanese|mythohistory|pantheon|shinto|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16179" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4862" RevisionGUID="122b02f0-988e-4c63-86c1-7d2fdd7347ad" CreationDate="2018-05-06T08:51:44.233" UserId="3459" Text="As part of the Insular Celts, I know that Scotland shares some Pantheon of Gods with Ireland, Wales and England. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, does Scotland have any discrete mythology unique to the Scottish people/land?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16180" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4862" RevisionGUID="122b02f0-988e-4c63-86c1-7d2fdd7347ad" CreationDate="2018-05-06T08:51:44.233" UserId="3459" Text="Does Scotland have any discrete mythology not shared by other nations?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16181" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4862" RevisionGUID="122b02f0-988e-4c63-86c1-7d2fdd7347ad" CreationDate="2018-05-06T08:51:44.233" UserId="3459" Text="|scottish|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16182" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4863" RevisionGUID="7246ded6-bf3a-41b8-920d-305e8368393f" CreationDate="2018-05-06T22:29:49.707" UserId="5034" Text="When Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades defeated their father they fought over which domain they would rule. The three brothers decided to put three gems in a bag and each one of them would pull one out without looking. Zeus got sapphire which stood for the sky. Poseidon got turquoise which stood for the sea, and Hades got ruby which stood for the Underworld." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16183" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4863" RevisionGUID="d07dcd35-ff03-4cae-8fa7-07e716d4a04c" CreationDate="2018-05-06T23:41:28.757" UserId="4271" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="When Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades defeated their father, they fought over which domain each would rule. The three brothers decided to put three gems in a bag and each one of them would pull one out without looking. Zeus got sapphire which stood for the sky. Poseidon got turquoise which stood for the sea, and Hades got ruby which stood for the Underworld." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16184" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4863" RevisionGUID="5cd3e089-ff5c-4adc-bfdf-65fd48778627" CreationDate="2018-05-07T01:32:19.013" UserId="5034" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body" Text="When Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades defeated their father, they fought over which domain each would rule. The three brothers decided to put three gems in a bag and each one of them would pull one out without looking. Zeus got diamond which stood for the sky. Poseidon got sapphire which stood for the sea, and Hades got ruby which stood for the Underworld." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16185" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4864" RevisionGUID="b22f73b5-6971-4a97-866b-3bc5b9f84d5b" CreationDate="2018-05-07T02:00:32.080" UserId="4271" Text="About 13/14 months ago, I was reading the Metamorphosis by Ovid (translator unknown). At a time I was reading it just to get get through it because it wasn't what I expected (still read it though, albeit not throrughly). Anyways, I dimly remember a picture depicting a female centaur.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What are the myths around female centaurs?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16186" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4864" RevisionGUID="b22f73b5-6971-4a97-866b-3bc5b9f84d5b" CreationDate="2018-05-07T02:00:32.080" UserId="4271" Text="Where are there female centaurs in Mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16187" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4864" RevisionGUID="b22f73b5-6971-4a97-866b-3bc5b9f84d5b" CreationDate="2018-05-07T02:00:32.080" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16188" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4865" RevisionGUID="3e499eb7-b56c-4c86-8087-6c6e16302d5e" CreationDate="2018-05-07T03:35:06.790" UserId="2807" Text="Wikipedia has a nice article about the [Centaurides](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centaurides) or centauresses, the female centaurs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; First encountered in Greek mythology as members of the tribe of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Centauroi, the Centaurides are only occasionally mentioned in written&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sources, but appear frequently in Greek art and Roman mosaics. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; centauress who appears most frequently in literature is Hylonome, wife&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the centaur Cyllarus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [Literary depictions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centaurides#Literary_depictions) section of same article there are two quotes, the first from Philostratus the Elder:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; How beautiful the Centaurides are, even where they are horses; for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; some grow out of white mares, others are attached to chestnut mares,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and the coats of others are dappled, but they glisten like those of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; horses that are well cared for. There is also a white female Centaur&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that grows out of a black mare, and the very opposition of the colours&#xD;&#xA;&gt; helps to produce the united beauty of the whole.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And from the *Metamorphoses*, Ovid says this about [Hylonome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hylonome):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the high woods there was none comelier of all the centaur-girls,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and she alone by love and love’s sweet words and winning ways held&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cyllarus, yes, and the care she took to look her best (so far as that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; may be with limbs like that). She combed her glossy hair, and twined&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her curls in turn with rosemary or violets or roses, and sometimes she&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wore a pure white lily. Twice a day she bathed her face in the clear&#xD;&#xA;&gt; brook that fell from Pagasae’s high forest, twice she plunged her body&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in its flow, nor would she wear on her left side and shoulder any skin&#xD;&#xA;&gt; but what became her from best-chosen beasts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Theoi.com has also a small entry for the [Centaurides (Kentaurides)](http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/Kentaurides.html), but it says very much the same as the Wikipedia." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16189" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4866" RevisionGUID="86bd928b-5044-40df-9d47-d0c47ed08916" CreationDate="2018-05-07T04:00:47.960" UserId="4962" Text="Yes. Kelpies, Selkies, Nessie, Blue men of Minch, Bean-Nighe, Bahr Geist, and wulvers are some examples.&#xA;&#xA;https://www.scotland.org/features/scottish-myths-folklore-and-legends&#xA;&#xA;http://godfinder.org/index.html?q=Scotland" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16190" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3285" RevisionGUID="5549e29a-fbbc-4c07-a295-a854bccfebbd" CreationDate="2018-05-07T06:36:08.763" UserId="2682" Comment="tweaked a detail" Text="The closest to this that I can think of occurs in one obscure reference in Robert Graves' compilation *The Greek Myths*, a *Combined Edition* of which was published by Penguin Books in 1992. In describing a group of triplet goddesses of vengeance and retribution, who were called &quot;the Erinnyes or Furies&quot;, Graves says (in Section 31.g, on p. 122) that &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These Erinnyes were crones, with snakes for hair, dogs' heads,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; coal-black bodies, bats' wings, and bloodshot eyes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Bats' wings are, actually, massively webbed arms with some very long fingers.&#xD;&#xA;[![Indian Fruit Bat][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;With that being the case, and assuming that each of the Erinnyes had simply one pair of wings in addition to one pair of arms bearing a more human shape, then it would also be true to say that each of these sisters had a total of four arms (to go with her [only] two legs).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, in the ancient iconography in which I have seen [depictions](http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Erinyes.html) of the Erinnyes, they are invariably completely humanoid, represented as women with snakes for hair (or simply with snakes writhing *in the midst of* their otherwise ordinary-looking hair) sometimes with obviously feathered *bird*-like wings. Nor have I read any ancient author who describes them as having either the bats' wings or the dogs' heads.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond that anomalous reference, no, it does not seem that there are any such four-armed bipeds in Graeco-Roman mythology.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/33Gfv.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16191" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4864" RevisionGUID="32ec6c0f-608c-4e28-b93b-178ae8519c4f" CreationDate="2018-05-07T08:04:54.650" UserId="2807" Comment="Fixed small typos" Text="About 13/14 months ago, I was reading the *Metamorphoses* by Ovid (translator unknown). At a time I was reading it just to get through it because it wasn't what I expected (still read it though, albeit not thoroughly). Anyways, I dimly remember a picture of a female centaur.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What are the myths around female centaurs?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16192" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4864" RevisionGUID="32ec6c0f-608c-4e28-b93b-178ae8519c4f" CreationDate="2018-05-07T08:04:54.650" Comment="Proposed by 2807 approved by 2682, -1 edit id of 1637" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16193" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4864" RevisionGUID="b57235ef-2315-4966-8a38-fb33be762ba2" CreationDate="2018-05-07T08:04:54.650" UserId="57" Comment="Fixed small typos" Text="A few months ago, I was reading the *Metamorphoses* by Ovid (translator unknown). At a time I was reading it just to get through it because it wasn't what I expected (still read it though, albeit not thoroughly). Anyways, I dimly remember a picture of a female centaur.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What are the myths around female centaurs?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16194" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4864" RevisionGUID="b57235ef-2315-4966-8a38-fb33be762ba2" CreationDate="2018-05-07T08:04:54.650" UserId="57" Comment="Fixed small typos" Text="Where are there female centaurs in mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16196" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="4831" RevisionGUID="955bc151-aa10-4fa8-8491-7d09c7648d67" CreationDate="2018-05-07T08:31:16.063" UserId="57" Comment="67" />
  <row Id="16198" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4867" RevisionGUID="a2268e5e-7765-44df-bb72-4df955e6b6c7" CreationDate="2018-05-07T11:06:35.720" UserId="4142" Text="In later (hellenistic) times Zeus tended to monopolize all powers and earthquakes came to be his deed. There is a classic book by AB Cook &lt;a href=&quot;https://archive.org/download/Zeus.StudyInAncientReligion.Vol.3PartIIizeusGodOfTheDarkSky/CookArthurBernard-Zeus.StudyInAncientReligion.Vol.3PartIIi.pdf&quot;&gt;Zeus: a study in ancient religion&lt;/a&gt;, part3 has some 30 pages on &quot;Zeus and eartquakes&quot;,  eg. p.21: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The same feeling that the failure of the solid ground can be ascribed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to no power lower than the highest prompts the Orphic hymn-writer&#xD;&#xA;&gt; boldly to transfer the epithet seisickthon,' who maketh the land to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; quake/ from Poseidon5 to Zeus6 and the author of a Sibylline oracle to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; use the like language of his supreme Deity7. The fact is that, as the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; centuries went by, Poseidon lost while Zeus gained in religious&#xD;&#xA;&gt; significance. Earthquakes came to be connected less and less with the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; former, more and more with the latter." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16199" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4859" RevisionGUID="fe2a2af4-221c-41d3-a3c6-882640c8f4b3" CreationDate="2018-05-07T13:54:27.743" UserId="4271" Comment="deleted sign" Text="The opposite of Hubris is Sophrosyne. It is considered an important quality to have and is expressed in opposition to the concept of hubris. The meaning of the concept Sophrosyne is, &quot;an ideal of excellence of character and soundness of mind.&quot; No language has an equal word to Sophrosyne.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When one has Sophrosyne, it leads to other qualities of humble importance. Qualities are such: temperance, moderation, prudence, purity, and self-control.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The word Sophrosyne was used in Plato's writing and my have been influenced by [Heraclitus. His fragment 112 states][1], &quot;Sophrosyne is the greatest virtue, and wisdom is speaking and acting the trust, paying heed to the nature of things.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sophrosyne is also a [personified daemon][2]. She was released from Pandora's jar and left the cosmos on her way to Olympus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophrosyne&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Sophrosyne.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16200" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4868" RevisionGUID="b073c78a-341c-42a9-b350-98d75716e577" CreationDate="2018-05-07T14:38:07.903" UserId="2807" Text="In the same chapter &quot;Zeus and the Earthquakes&quot; of *[Zeus: a study in ancient religion*, Vol. III](https://archive.org/stream/zeusstudyinancie03cook#page/n33/mode/2up), by [Arthur Bernard Cook](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Bernard_Cook), quoted by @sand1 in his answer, the author says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In point of fact, the earliest extant description of an earthquake &#xD;&#xA;&gt; attributes the phenomenon, naively enough, to the action of Zeus,  who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; nods his head, shakes his hair, and thereby makes the mighty  mass of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mount Olympos to tremble.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Indeed, Homer in the *Iliad* tells us this about Zeus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The son of Cronos spoke, and bowed his dark brow in assent, and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ambrosial locks waved from the king's immortal head; and he made great&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Olympus quake.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[&lt;sup&gt;Homer, *Iliad*. 1.528&lt;/sup&gt;](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D493)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But, as you already mention in your question, Poseidon is called &quot;Shaker of Earth&quot; more than [thirty times](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/searchresults?target=en&amp;all_words=shaker&amp;phrase=&amp;any_words=&amp;exclude_words=&amp;documents=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134) in the same work.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I wouldn't discard an earlier association between earthquakes and a [chthonic Zeus](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/400/which-cities-had-chthonic-zeus-cults) but, during the classic period at least, &quot;the Shaker of Earth&quot; was definitively Poseidon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then, as @sand1 mentions in his answer, and quoting again from *Zeus, a study in religion*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The fact is that, as the centuries went by, Poseidon lost while Zeus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gained in religious significance. Earthquakes came to be connected&#xD;&#xA;&gt; less and less with the former, more and more with the latter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The author then mentions a series of earthquakes, with the first examples attributed to Zeus dating from A.D. times.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16202" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4869" RevisionGUID="79deb25f-83ad-4a06-97ef-d234ce5c1837" CreationDate="2018-05-07T17:09:52.017" UserId="4271" Text="When a [kitsune][1] take human form and marries a human, they often have children. *When* the offspring are human, they inherit abilities (special physical or supernatural qualities). These in turn are passed to their children.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The word choice makes me think that the offspring aren't always human. Is there a story to corroborate my suspicions?  &#xD;&#xA;or...  &#xD;&#xA;It there a Shinto Myth in which a kitsune-wife give birth to something other than a human?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.mythicalcreaturesguide.com/page/Kitsune" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16203" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4869" RevisionGUID="79deb25f-83ad-4a06-97ef-d234ce5c1837" CreationDate="2018-05-07T17:09:52.017" UserId="4271" Text="Human and fox offspring in Shinto?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16204" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4869" RevisionGUID="79deb25f-83ad-4a06-97ef-d234ce5c1837" CreationDate="2018-05-07T17:09:52.017" UserId="4271" Text="|mythical-creatures|japanese|shinto|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16206" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4865" RevisionGUID="21a8065b-d2fb-411b-906f-ac9254177da8" CreationDate="2018-05-07T21:25:24.013" UserId="2807" Comment="Added link kindly provided by DukeZhou" Text="Wikipedia has a nice article about the [Centaurides](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centaurides), or centauresses, the female centaurs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; First encountered in Greek mythology as members of the tribe of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Centauroi, the Centaurides are only occasionally mentioned in written&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sources, but appear frequently in Greek art and Roman mosaics. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; centauress who appears most frequently in literature is Hylonome, wife&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the centaur Cyllarus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [Literary depictions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centaurides#Literary_depictions) section of the same article there are two quotes, the first from Philostratus the Elder:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; How beautiful the Centaurides are, even where they are horses; for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; some grow out of white mares, others are attached to chestnut mares,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and the coats of others are dappled, but they glisten like those of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; horses that are well cared for. There is also a white female Centaur&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that grows out of a black mare, and the very opposition of the colours&#xD;&#xA;&gt; helps to produce the united beauty of the whole.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And in the *Metamorphoses*, Ovid says this about [Hylonome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hylonome):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the high woods there was none comelier of all the centaur-girls,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and she alone by love and love’s sweet words and winning ways held&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cyllarus, yes, and the care she took to look her best (so far as that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; may be with limbs like that). She combed her glossy hair, and twined&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her curls in turn with rosemary or violets or roses, and sometimes she&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wore a pure white lily. Twice a day she bathed her face in the clear&#xD;&#xA;&gt; brook that fell from Pagasae’s high forest, twice she plunged her body&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in its flow, nor would she wear on her left side and shoulder any skin&#xD;&#xA;&gt; but what became her from best-chosen beasts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ovid, Metamorphoses, 12.316 ff.](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D12%3Acard%3D316)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Theoi.com has also a small entry for the [Centaurides (Kentaurides)](http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/Kentaurides.html), with longer extracts from the same sources." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16207" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4859" RevisionGUID="712aa6fd-3456-4ec5-9454-d270926ae684" CreationDate="2018-05-07T21:26:56.727" UserId="2892" Comment="added link to lexical entry for sophrosune" Text="The opposite of Hubris is Sophrosyne ([σωφροσύνη][1]). It is considered an important quality to have and is expressed in opposition to the concept of hubris. The meaning of the concept Sophrosyne is, &quot;an ideal of excellence of character and soundness of mind.&quot; No language has an equal word to Sophrosyne.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When one has Sophrosyne, it leads to other qualities of humble importance. Qualities are such: temperance, moderation, prudence, purity, and self-control.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The word Sophrosyne was used in Plato's writing and my have been influenced by [Heraclitus. His fragment 112 states][2], &quot;Sophrosyne is the greatest virtue, and wisdom is speaking and acting the trust, paying heed to the nature of things.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sophrosyne is also a [personified daemon][3]. She was released from Pandora's jar and left the cosmos on her way to Olympus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic%20letter%3D*s111%3Aentry%20group%3D183%3Aentry%3Dswfrosu%2Fnh&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophrosyne&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Sophrosyne.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16210" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4870" RevisionGUID="4469bf33-6eb4-48bb-96b8-b43d319e6101" CreationDate="2018-05-07T23:31:07.037" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="Easter eggs connect with Mary Magdalene, and chocolate ones were first marketed by the J S Fry chocolate company, but what is the origin of the Easter Bunny, the rabbit or hare that is now a popular feature at Eastertime?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16211" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4870" RevisionGUID="4469bf33-6eb4-48bb-96b8-b43d319e6101" CreationDate="2018-05-07T23:31:07.037" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="Where does the folk tradition of the Easter Bunny come from?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16212" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4870" RevisionGUID="4469bf33-6eb4-48bb-96b8-b43d319e6101" CreationDate="2018-05-07T23:31:07.037" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="|christianity|calendar-dates|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16213" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4866" RevisionGUID="a620fec6-9942-4f96-89f8-5caa89231ddd" CreationDate="2018-05-08T04:05:19.133" UserId="4962" Comment="deleted 18 characters in body" Text="Yes. Nessie, Blue men of Minch, Bean-Nighe, Bahr Geist, and wulvers are some examples.&#xA;&#xA;https://www.scotland.org/features/scottish-myths-folklore-and-legends&#xA;&#xA;http://godfinder.org/index.html?q=Scotland" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16214" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4866" RevisionGUID="53702876-048d-45dc-8b93-e7e0caae9675" CreationDate="2018-05-08T04:23:36.987" UserId="4962" Comment="added 150 characters in body; added 335 characters in body" Text="Yes. Nessie, Blue men of Minch, Bean-Nighe, Bahr Geist, and wulvers are some examples.&#xA;&#xA;https://www.scotland.org/features/scottish-myths-folklore-and-legends&#xA;&#xA;http://godfinder.org/index.html?q=Scotland&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Wulvers are ofter called werewolves, but legend shows they are quite different.&#xA;&#xA;http://www.scotclans.com/the-scottish-wulver-the-kindly-werewolf/&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The Irish banshee and the Scottish bean nighe tread the darkest of nights as omens from another world, that of the unknown beyond.  Though similar at first glance, they were regarded as quite different beings. &#xA;&#xA;http://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends-europe/songs-and-shrouds-mythical-banshee-and-bean-nighe-harbingers-002876" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16215" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4857" RevisionGUID="50a20f46-edf0-4013-9dca-2770f52cf4cc" CreationDate="2018-05-08T13:04:25.500" UserId="2807" Comment="Spelling revision" Text="[Philomela][1] was a princess of Athens and the sister of [Procne][2], queen of Thrace (married to Tereus, the [king of Thrace).][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the fifth year of their marriage, Procne expressed a desire to see her sister. Tereus went to go get Philomela and lusted for her. On the way back, he forced her into a log cabin in the wood and violated her. The king warned her to keep quiet, but when she displayed defiance, he cut out her tongue and held her captive in the cabin. When he got back to Thrace, he told his wife her sister was dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*This is the part where plot holes start coming up.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Philomela made a tapestry of Tereus' crime. Somehow Procne received it and was so angry, she killed their son Itys and served it to Tereus. After he ate, **both** sisters presented Itys head to Tereus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tereus gets angry, grabs an ax and chases them. The sisters prey to the gods for help and they all get transformed into different birds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How did her sister get the tapestry if she was held captive in the cabin? How did her sister get free?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philomela&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procne&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tereus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16216" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4857" RevisionGUID="50a20f46-edf0-4013-9dca-2770f52cf4cc" CreationDate="2018-05-08T13:04:25.500" Comment="Proposed by 2807 approved by -1 edit id of 1638" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16217" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4857" RevisionGUID="c3a27a98-d206-4656-a4d2-1546c52dfee0" CreationDate="2018-05-08T13:04:25.500" UserId="4271" Comment="Spelling revision" Text="[Philomela][1] was a princess of Athens and the sister of [Procne][2], queen of Thrace (married to Tereus, the [king of Thrace).][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the fifth year of their marriage, Procne expressed a desire to see her sister. Tereus went to go get Philomela and lusted for her. On the way back, he forced her into a log cabin in the wood and violated her. The king warned her to keep quiet, but when she displayed defiance, he cut out her tongue and held her captive in the cabin. When he got back to Thrace, he told his wife her sister was dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*This is the part where a few plot holes start coming up.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Philomela made a tapestry of Tereus' crime. Somehow Procne received it and was so angry, she killed their son Itys and served it to Tereus. After he ate, **both** sisters presented Itys head to Tereus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tereus gets angry, grabs an ax and chases them. The sisters prey to the gods for help and they all get transformed into different birds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How did her sister get the tapestry if she was held captive in the cabin? How did her sister get free?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philomela&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procne&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tereus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16218" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4871" RevisionGUID="5b4f472d-1910-4db7-9d4e-81271ef7031a" CreationDate="2018-05-08T13:32:06.963" UserId="4271" Text="After a kitsune gains its ninth tail, its fur becomes either gold or white. Is there any specific reason why a kitsune would become white instead of gold and vise versa?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16219" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4871" RevisionGUID="5b4f472d-1910-4db7-9d4e-81271ef7031a" CreationDate="2018-05-08T13:32:06.963" UserId="4271" Text="Is there a difference between a gold fur and a white fur kitsune?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16220" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4871" RevisionGUID="5b4f472d-1910-4db7-9d4e-81271ef7031a" CreationDate="2018-05-08T13:32:06.963" UserId="4271" Text="|mythical-creatures|japanese|shinto|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16221" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4872" RevisionGUID="ec905a19-0a81-4f48-988b-9322f4e9e89a" CreationDate="2018-05-08T13:58:03.627" UserId="4271" Text="&gt; There are thirteen different kinds of Kitsune, each with a corresponding element, listed as follows: Heaven (or Celestial or Prime), Void (or Dark), Wind, Spirit, Fire, Earth, River, Ocean, Mountain, Forest, Thunder, Time and Sound.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Information found [here][1], 5/7/2018.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there unique names for the type of kitsune in relation to the corresponding element?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.mythicalcreaturesguide.com/page/Kitsune" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16222" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4872" RevisionGUID="ec905a19-0a81-4f48-988b-9322f4e9e89a" CreationDate="2018-05-08T13:58:03.627" UserId="4271" Text="Are there unique names for the different types of Kitsune?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16223" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4872" RevisionGUID="ec905a19-0a81-4f48-988b-9322f4e9e89a" CreationDate="2018-05-08T13:58:03.627" UserId="4271" Text="|mythical-creatures|japanese|shinto|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16224" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4873" RevisionGUID="ed289630-8aee-451f-b71d-aa9576f8fad1" CreationDate="2018-05-08T14:25:41.970" UserId="4271" Text="Kitsune have something called a [star ball][1] or kitsune ball. They are white and/or gold orbs. The orb is like a kitsune life force so they [hide it][2], usually in their mouths or on their tails. If someone manages to get a hold of the orb, they have control over the kitsune.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the extent of that control? Could one keep a kitsune until they die and the kitsune reclaim the ball?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.mythicalcreaturesguide.com/page/Kitsune&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsune" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16225" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4873" RevisionGUID="ed289630-8aee-451f-b71d-aa9576f8fad1" CreationDate="2018-05-08T14:25:41.970" UserId="4271" Text="What is the extent of control over a kitsune?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16226" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4873" RevisionGUID="ed289630-8aee-451f-b71d-aa9576f8fad1" CreationDate="2018-05-08T14:25:41.970" UserId="4271" Text="|mythical-creatures|japanese|shinto|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16227" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4874" RevisionGUID="1f7be6ed-d03b-4d7a-9518-7f98df0b5011" CreationDate="2018-05-08T14:55:48.603" UserId="4271" Text="&gt; After reaching 1,000 years of age gaining its ninth tail, a kitsune turns a golden color, becoming a 'Tenko' (天狐 &quot;heavenly fox&quot;/&quot;celestial fox&quot;), the most powerful form of the kitsune, and then ascends to the heavens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kitsune are presumably born(?), come into existence(?), with one tail. After one-hundred years, they start getting more, one every 100 years. So this can mean either at 100 they get another tail, or it takes another 100 years to get their second tail. So the kitsune is either 100 or 200 years old at the time of getting two tails. This means they are either 800 or 900 at the time of getting their ninth tail.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why does it take another 100 or 200 years to ascend to heaven?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16228" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4874" RevisionGUID="1f7be6ed-d03b-4d7a-9518-7f98df0b5011" CreationDate="2018-05-08T14:55:48.603" UserId="4271" Text="Why 1000 years and not 900 or 800 years for kitsune to ascend to heaven?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16229" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4874" RevisionGUID="1f7be6ed-d03b-4d7a-9518-7f98df0b5011" CreationDate="2018-05-08T14:55:48.603" UserId="4271" Text="|mythical-creatures|japanese|shinto|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16230" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4875" RevisionGUID="7da1010f-c66b-45ca-99bc-581ca7696498" CreationDate="2018-05-08T15:16:21.557" UserId="4271" Text="Kitsune are [born and give birth under a tree][1]. The tree is then connected to the kitsune. The tree will gain power from the kitsune, never getting sick or being infested with worms or bug (don't know about cutting it down).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kitsune, when they reach the year of 100 or 50, can shape-shift. Some kitsune shift into beautiful young women and might marry a human. These kitsune are known as fox-wives. They can have children together and if the child is human, will inherit powers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If the kitsune is in human form, do they have to give birth to child under a tree? Does the tree get the same benefits if the child is human?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://tehlorri.com/l5r/birthtree.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16231" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4875" RevisionGUID="7da1010f-c66b-45ca-99bc-581ca7696498" CreationDate="2018-05-08T15:16:21.557" UserId="4271" Text="Do fox-wives have to give birth under a tree?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16232" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4875" RevisionGUID="7da1010f-c66b-45ca-99bc-581ca7696498" CreationDate="2018-05-08T15:16:21.557" UserId="4271" Text="|mythical-creatures|japanese|shinto|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16233" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4876" RevisionGUID="6d424fa7-cd6e-4b05-bd6a-3517d97c9e73" CreationDate="2018-05-08T16:43:39.187" UserId="4271" Text="The closest thing I got from looking this up is a game. But I kind of need a non-modern interpretation answer for an idea I'm working on.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Edo period (1603–1867), kitsune were seen as witch animals. With a little research, I found out that witch in Japan were viewed more or less the same as the rest of the world (evil or with malintent). Witches used kitsune for their power to suite their own wants.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did anyone ever wish a kitsune harm and end up killing it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16234" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4876" RevisionGUID="6d424fa7-cd6e-4b05-bd6a-3517d97c9e73" CreationDate="2018-05-08T16:43:39.187" UserId="4271" Text="Can kitsune die/be killed?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16235" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4876" RevisionGUID="6d424fa7-cd6e-4b05-bd6a-3517d97c9e73" CreationDate="2018-05-08T16:43:39.187" UserId="4271" Text="|mythical-creatures|japanese|shinto|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16236" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="4696" RevisionGUID="e63731d1-aa38-4f4f-b597-0160a082df8f" CreationDate="2018-05-08T16:44:00.937" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|magic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16237" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3117" RevisionGUID="d889b821-ca6f-49ab-81f8-2ce86592c424" CreationDate="2018-05-08T16:44:42.137" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|magic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16241" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3373" RevisionGUID="3b4a56cb-d64f-40df-948b-a3ebb0bc43e5" CreationDate="2018-05-08T16:48:58.257" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|folklore|history|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16243" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4878" RevisionGUID="60ecd61a-f869-4336-a79b-af45c81c38f1" CreationDate="2018-05-08T17:16:57.867" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="In some cultures, when a child loses a baby tooth they put it under their pillow for the Tooth Fairy to replace it during the night with a coin. In my experience, she is never seen or heard and she is known only by the fact that in the morning the child discovers the coin in place of their tooth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When was the first known account of this entity?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16244" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4878" RevisionGUID="60ecd61a-f869-4336-a79b-af45c81c38f1" CreationDate="2018-05-08T17:16:57.867" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="When was the first known account of the Tooth Fairy?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16245" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4878" RevisionGUID="60ecd61a-f869-4336-a79b-af45c81c38f1" CreationDate="2018-05-08T17:16:57.867" UserDisplayName="user1618" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16247" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4879" RevisionGUID="18cf2cff-6c65-4dff-b167-25bd4bc1d5a0" CreationDate="2018-05-08T17:22:21.513" UserId="4271" Text="During the Setsubun festival in February, it is customary to 'cast out' roasted soy beans and say,&#xD;&#xA; &gt; &quot;Oni wa soto! Fuku wa uchi!&quot; (&quot;鬼は外！福は内！&quot;, &quot;Oni go out! Blessings come in!&quot;).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the significance of the soy beans? Why does it have to be soy beans? Are soy beans harmful to oni?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16248" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4879" RevisionGUID="18cf2cff-6c65-4dff-b167-25bd4bc1d5a0" CreationDate="2018-05-08T17:22:21.513" UserId="4271" Text="What is the significance of soy beans?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16249" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4879" RevisionGUID="18cf2cff-6c65-4dff-b167-25bd4bc1d5a0" CreationDate="2018-05-08T17:22:21.513" UserId="4271" Text="|japanese|shinto|monsters|traditions|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16250" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="3096" RevisionGUID="616bc0b3-3955-45e5-9a8f-826f14eca9b8" CreationDate="2018-05-08T19:05:13.960" UserId="57" Comment="68" />
  <row Id="16256" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3189" RevisionGUID="ce54509e-79f8-4692-8ffa-ccbaf436d52c" CreationDate="2018-05-08T22:28:22.587" UserId="4271" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="Here is another time Apollo was made mortal. After Zeus found out Apollo possessed the full gift of prophesy, he asked him which woman would give birth to the kid that would over throw him as king. Apollo backed away and said, &quot;No can tell pops.&quot; Zeus got so angry, he was made mortal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The next time Apollo was made mortal, Asclepius (as a demigod) brought back a dead person for Artemis. Hades complained, Zeus killed him. Apollo got mad, he killed the elder cyclops. Zeus got mad and was going to throw him into Tartarus, but made him mortal and brought back Asclepius as a god for a compromise." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16260" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4881" RevisionGUID="d560f20d-a225-4ac9-a0fb-100b4ca45fdc" CreationDate="2018-05-09T00:05:28.620" UserId="4271" Text="I just opened my [Iliad et Odyssey][1] (Translated by Samuel Butler), and I saw this...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Polypoetes then killed Astyalus, Ulysses Pidytes of Percote, and Teucer Aretaon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Iliad, Book VI, page 98&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This  book uses all Greek names [Athene (older spelling of Athena), Zeus, Odysseus, Ares, Aphrodite...], so, I ask to learn about the use of the Latin Odysseus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why say Ulysses? Is it to separate him from the Odysseus on the other side of the war (Acheans/Greeks vs Trojans)?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is Pidytes? Is the a last name or a title (pretty sure it is not a last name, but I still ask)?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Percote was a city on the southern side of the Hellespont, northeast of Troy. As allies of Troy, Percote sent them help for the war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/barnes-noble-leatherbound-classics-the-iliad-and-the-odyssey-homer/1106658791" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16261" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4881" RevisionGUID="d560f20d-a225-4ac9-a0fb-100b4ca45fdc" CreationDate="2018-05-09T00:05:28.620" UserId="4271" Text="What does Ulysses Pidytes of Percote mean?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16262" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4881" RevisionGUID="d560f20d-a225-4ac9-a0fb-100b4ca45fdc" CreationDate="2018-05-09T00:05:28.620" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|iliad|homer|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16264" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="4592" RevisionGUID="1263af41-d30d-4668-a6ec-0c44eb69ade1" CreationDate="2018-05-09T00:06:41.230" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|homer|iliad|hera|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16265" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="4586" RevisionGUID="930df7c3-5a0c-4d15-8158-fc1224bcb0f9" CreationDate="2018-05-09T00:07:00.587" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|homer|iliad|worship|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16266" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3328" RevisionGUID="d53664f2-79f2-45ea-be1e-abb4c8f2f3f8" CreationDate="2018-05-09T00:08:05.343" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|homer|iliad|achilles|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16267" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3140" RevisionGUID="1f16ed20-780b-4bf6-9818-75ada61f7d4a" CreationDate="2018-05-09T00:08:44.313" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|homer|iliad|achilles|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16268" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3091" RevisionGUID="750dcf23-6611-48b8-887d-86a6c6103298" CreationDate="2018-05-09T00:09:17.550" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|homer|iliad|achilles|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16275" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4882" RevisionGUID="7c12b4ae-d832-4b65-bdb8-1cab67905b27" CreationDate="2018-05-09T03:54:58.567" UserId="4808" Text="I was watching God of War, and I began thinking of how to reconcile the existence of multiple myths: e.g., how the Greek mythology could coexist with the Norse one. It is said in the Bible, for example, that &quot;Thou shalt have no other god before me&quot;—this could very well be interpreted as the Christian deity accepting the existence of other gods, but demanding that humans only follow him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Someone in the comment section of one of the videos stated that Greek mythology accepts the existence of other gods (gods outside of Olympus and such,&quot; but they did not specify which gods, and I was unaware of how to fact check it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I hope I have made myself clear, but if I have not, please ask for clarification, and I will get back to this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16276" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4882" RevisionGUID="7c12b4ae-d832-4b65-bdb8-1cab67905b27" CreationDate="2018-05-09T03:54:58.567" UserId="4808" Text="Gods from different cultures accepted in the same universe?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16277" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4882" RevisionGUID="7c12b4ae-d832-4b65-bdb8-1cab67905b27" CreationDate="2018-05-09T03:54:58.567" UserId="4808" Text="|history|theology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16278" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4879" RevisionGUID="b15d6874-b577-4f43-8014-433dd407fa9f" CreationDate="2018-05-09T09:41:30.657" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags; edited title" Text="What is the significance of soy beans in Japan?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16279" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="4879" RevisionGUID="b15d6874-b577-4f43-8014-433dd407fa9f" CreationDate="2018-05-09T09:41:30.657" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags; edited title" Text="|japanese|shinto|traditions|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16280" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4879" RevisionGUID="c6a1c1c0-9472-470b-a484-b6055ec4d31c" CreationDate="2018-05-09T10:04:32.037" UserId="108" Comment="edited title" Text="What is the significance of soy beans in the Japanese custom of Setsubun?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16281" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4883" RevisionGUID="95064a76-611d-4208-ada2-6b504c667935" CreationDate="2018-05-09T11:02:11.613" UserId="108" Text="As you know, the highlight of the ritual is throwing beans at the *oni*. This specific activity is known as *mame* (魔滅), meaning &quot;to destroy the demon&quot; (**魔**を**滅**する, **ma** wo **me**s suru). Alternatively, *mame* can also be rendered as 魔目, meaning &quot;demon's eyes&quot;. So to shoot the demon's eyes is *mame wo iru* (魔目を射る).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Japanese word for beans is *mame* (豆), and to roast beans is *mame wo iru* (豆を煎る).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**In other words, it's a pun.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Incidentally, the roasted soy beans are known as *fukumame* (福豆), meaning auspicious beans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In folklore, the custom is attributed to a story of a demon from [Mount Kurama](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Kurama), who ravaged nearby villagers.  His reign of terror was finally put to a stop when [Bishamonten](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vai%C5%9Brava%E1%B9%87a) revealed himself, and banished the demon by throwing roasted beans at its eyes. To this day there is a temple on the mountain, Kurama Dera dedicated to Bishamonten.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On a theoretical level, the Japanese believed the [&quot;Five Grains&quot;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Grains) to house &quot;grain spirit&quot;, and as such possess great spiritual power. Rice were the most powerful, followed by soy beans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Japan, azuki and other beans are symbolically powerful . . . Beans have long been valued both for nutrition and for ritual power.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Foster, Michael Dylan. The book of yokai: Mysterious creatures of Japanese folklore. University of California Press, 2015.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--- &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, it *doesn't* have to be soy beans. The [Shinetsu region](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin%27etsu_region) customarily uses peanuts, for instance. It seems this is because the setsubun the setsubun ritual ends with participants picking up the beans and eating as many beans as their number of years. For obvious reasons, it is more hygienic to use peanuts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Furthermore, there is technically no reason it has to be soy beans and not other types of beans. Other regions historically used red beans, and some temples use rice in similar rituals. It is likely that &quot;beans&quot; defaulted to soy beans due to their their widespread cultivation - and because their size makes clean up easier." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16282" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4883" RevisionGUID="8aa3ff12-30f6-406e-a644-6d87b6a85836" CreationDate="2018-05-09T11:07:43.077" UserId="108" Comment="added 47 characters in body" Text="As you know, the highlight of the ritual is throwing beans at the *oni*. This specific activity is known as *mame* (魔滅), meaning &quot;to destroy the demon&quot; (**魔**を**滅**する, **ma** wo **me**s suru). Alternatively, *mame* can also be rendered as 魔目, meaning &quot;demon's eyes&quot;. So to shoot the demon's eyes is *mame wo iru* (魔目を射る).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Japanese word for beans is *mame* (豆), and to roast beans is *mame wo iru* (豆を煎る).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**In other words, it's a pun.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Incidentally, the roasted soy beans are known as *fukumame* (福豆), meaning auspicious beans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In folklore, the custom is attributed to a story of a demon from [Mount Kurama](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Kurama), who ravaged nearby villagers.  His reign of terror was finally put to a stop when [Bishamonten](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vai%C5%9Brava%E1%B9%87a) revealed himself, and banished the demon by throwing roasted beans at its eyes. To this day there is a temple on the mountain, Kurama Dera dedicated to Bishamonten.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On a theoretical level, the Japanese believed the [&quot;Five Grains&quot;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Grains) to house &quot;grain spirit&quot;, and as such possess great spiritual power. Rice were the most powerful, followed by soy beans (known simply as &quot;great beans&quot; (大豆) in Japanese).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Japan, azuki and other beans are symbolically powerful . . . Beans have long been valued both for nutrition and for ritual power.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Foster, Michael Dylan. The book of yokai: Mysterious creatures of Japanese folklore. University of California Press, 2015.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--- &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, it *doesn't* have to be soy beans. The [Shinetsu region](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin%27etsu_region) customarily uses peanuts, for instance. It seems this is because the setsubun ritual ends with participants picking up the beans and eating as many beans as their number of years. For obvious reasons, it is more hygienic to use peanuts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Furthermore, there is technically no reason it has to be soy beans and not other types of beans. Other regions historically used red beans, and some temples use rice in similar rituals. It is likely that the ritual defaulted to using soy beans due to their their widespread cultivation - and because their size makes clean up easier." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16283" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4884" RevisionGUID="1af952ca-f8e5-4131-971d-e53da7587e3d" CreationDate="2018-05-09T12:39:05.943" UserId="2762" Text="If I have understood your question correctly, you wish to know of examples of cultures that accepted the existence of gods other than their own?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Before the advent of Christianity, and even for a good while afterwards, this was the norm, at least in most areas. Cultures would meet, mingle and if the gods were similar enough (had similar domains) then they would assume it was the same god under a different name (See: Greek and Roman Pantheon) and merge them. Gods would bleed-through as people moved around and brought their gods with them.&#xD;&#xA;It is possible, that these pantheons formed out of gods of different areas, with the more dominant tribe's god being perceived as the more powerful.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think due to the polytheistic nature of many religions of the time - with thousands of gods, allowing for things like the Lares &amp; Penates (household gods) that it was considered much more flexible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even the biblical religions arguably allowed for the existence of other gods, and that early Jewish culture was more henotheistic than monotheistic:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Who is like you, O Lord, among the gods? Who is like you, majestic in holiness, awesome in glorious deeds, doing wonders?&quot; &#xD;&#xA; &quot;for you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even with active religions today, Buddhism allows for the existence of other gods (I think, my knowledge is not great in this area and would appreciate a confirmation from a Buddist)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;'Free market' religion is not unusual in the scale of human history - the monopolistic religions of today are." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16285" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2936" RevisionGUID="372b439b-942d-45b1-a32b-5ad46959bf48" CreationDate="2018-05-09T15:02:00.653" UserId="2807" Comment="Fixed small typo" Text="When a hero takes a trip into the underworld, it's referred to as [*katabasis*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katabasis). I've included immortals in the listing. The following are but five of many such stories in Greek myth.&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;The god Dionysus rescued his mortal mother, Semele, from Hades. He does so by facing down Thanatos himself. Afterward, he gives Semele part of his divinity, making her immortal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Heracles (pre-immortality) rescued Theseus (who had previously tried and failed to abduct Persephone) during his twelfth labor. He did so by persuading Persephone to forgive Theseus.  On a separate occasion, rescued Alcestis (who had chosen to die in her husband's stead) from Hades by wrestling Thanatos, until the god of death agreed to free her, in return for her husband's previous generous hospitality.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After Persephone was taken by Hades, Hermes entered the underworld at the behest of her mother Demeter, in an attempt to bring her back -- but, as Hades had fed her a pomegranate there, she was required to live the winter in the underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After his oak nymph wife Eurydice was killed by a viper's bite, Orpheus played a mourning song so sad that the deities told him where to find her: in the underworld.  After Orpheus descended into the underworld, he put the guardian dog Cerberus to sleep with his magical music.  Hades was so moved by his music that he made a bet with him: if he could silently lead Eurydice back to the surface without looking back to see her, he could keep her. When Orpheus was nearly to the surface, he looked back and lost the bet.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In one Greek/Roman myth, Psyche, a princess too beautiful that people believed her to be Aphrodite/Venus's daughter, was targeted by the jealous goddess and, when her son Eros/Cupid joined the princess, put her to trial.  One trial was to take a box into the underworld to retrieve an extract of Persephone/Prosperina's beauty.  Psyche, after despairing and attempting suicide only to be guided to a safe passage to the underworld by the tower she was going to throw herself off of, enters the underworld with cakes to feed Cerberus and coins to give to Charon, paying for her return trip.  Upon returning to the light, she opens the box out of curiosity and is struck into a deep sleep.  She is later rescued by Eros/Cupid.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16286" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2936" RevisionGUID="372b439b-942d-45b1-a32b-5ad46959bf48" CreationDate="2018-05-09T15:02:00.653" Comment="Proposed by 2807 approved by 2892, 183 edit id of 1639" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16287" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4886" RevisionGUID="03592d05-ba7f-4ab3-998a-e26d35dcb9f7" CreationDate="2018-05-09T15:58:28.087" UserId="5040" Text="Yes there might be a chance that ragnarok has already happened and we are living in a repopulated world but according to what i have read is that ragnarok is a cycle that it will always occur and replenish the old to make way for the new.So according to me ragnarok will happen again but this time with new figures of worship .&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16292" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4876" RevisionGUID="31c58c75-f37f-485b-b938-7ea1fade0b26" CreationDate="2018-05-09T17:59:58.747" UserId="108" Comment="added 50 characters in body" Text="The closest thing I got from looking this up is a game. But I kind of need a non-modern interpretation answer for an idea I'm working on.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Edo period (1603–1867), [kitsune were seen as witch animals](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witchcraft#Japan). With a little research, I found out that witch in Japan were viewed more or less the same as the rest of the world (evil or with malintent). Witches used kitsune for their power to suite their own wants.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did anyone ever wish a kitsune harm and end up killing it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16293" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4883" RevisionGUID="4609e21a-7a57-459c-9b16-9b7a3176eed5" CreationDate="2018-05-09T18:05:45.053" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body" Text="As you know, the highlight of the ritual is throwing beans at the *oni*. This specific activity is known as *mame* (魔滅), meaning &quot;to destroy the demon&quot; (**魔**を**滅**する, **ma** wo **me**s suru). Alternatively, *mame* can also be rendered as 魔目, meaning &quot;demon's eyes&quot;. So to shoot the demon's eyes is *mame wo iru* (魔目を射る).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Japanese word for beans is *mame* (豆), and to roast beans is *mame wo iru* (豆を煎る).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**In other words, it's a pun.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Incidentally, the roasted soy beans are known as *fukumame* (福豆), meaning auspicious beans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In folklore, the custom is attributed to a story of a demon from [Mount Kurama](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Kurama), who ravaged nearby villagers.  His reign of terror was finally put to a stop when [Bishamonten](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vai%C5%9Brava%E1%B9%87a) revealed himself, and banished the demon by throwing roasted beans at its eyes. To this day there is a temple on the mountain, Kurama Dera dedicated to Bishamonten.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On a theoretical level, the Japanese believed the [&quot;Five Grains&quot;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Grains) to house &quot;grain spirit&quot;, and as such possess great spiritual power. Rice were the most powerful, followed by soy beans (known simply as &quot;great beans&quot; (大豆) in Japanese).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Japan, azuki and other beans are symbolically powerful . . . Beans have long been valued both for nutrition and for ritual power.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Foster, Michael Dylan. The book of yokai: Mysterious creatures of Japanese folklore. University of California Press, 2015.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--- &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, it *doesn't* have to be soy beans. The [Shinetsu region](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin%27etsu_region) customarily uses shelled peanuts, for instance. It seems this is because the *setsubun* ritual ends with participants picking up the beans and eating as many beans as their number of years. For obvious reasons, it is more hygienic to use peanuts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anyway, there is technically no reason it has to be soy beans and not other types of beans. Some regions historically used red beans, and some temples use rice in similar rituals. It is likely that the ritual defaulted to soy beans due to their their widespread cultivation - and because their size makes clean up easier." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16294" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3432" RevisionGUID="66f8a354-7368-4cdc-81ab-5a43eff13f32" CreationDate="2018-05-09T22:42:39.370" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16303" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4886" RevisionGUID="71852c75-83d0-42e5-a092-8f2fb52ffcf8" CreationDate="2018-05-10T00:25:19.290" UserId="4271" Comment="deleted 9 characters in body" Text="Yes, there might be a chance that ragnarok has already happened and we are living in a repopulated world. But according to what I have read, ragnarok is a cycle that will always occur and replenish the old to make way for the new. So according to me, ragnarok will happen again but this time with new figures of worship." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16304" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4866" RevisionGUID="6e539713-edff-4069-b553-443b0f451ab0" CreationDate="2018-05-10T01:37:43.200" UserId="4962" Comment="added 224 characters in body; added 532 characters in body" Text="Yes. Nessie, Blue men of Minch, Bean-Nighe, Bahr Geist, and wulvers are some examples.&#xA;&#xA;https://www.scotland.org/features/scottish-myths-folklore-and-legends&#xA;&#xA;http://godfinder.org/index.html?q=Scotland&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Wulvers are ofter called werewolves, but legend shows they are quite different.&#xA;&#xA;http://www.scotclans.com/the-scottish-wulver-the-kindly-werewolf/&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The Irish banshee and the Scottish bean nighe tread the darkest of nights as omens from another world, that of the unknown beyond.  Though similar at first glance, they were regarded as quite different beings. &#xA;&#xA;http://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends-europe/songs-and-shrouds-mythical-banshee-and-bean-nighe-harbingers-002876&#xA;&#xA;&gt; In Scottish folklore the Ghillie Dhu or Gille Dubh was a solitary male faerie. He was kindly and reticent yet sometimes wild in character but had a gentle devotion to children&#xA;&#xA;https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghillie_Dhu&#xA;&#xA;&gt;  A shape-shifting mythical water bird, Boobrie, is a huge, black creature flying through the water and haunting lakes and salt-water wells. In Scottish Highlands, there are many legends of this strange, gigantic bird with webbed feet, at the end of short legs, black wings, claws that resemble human hands and black eyes with a very unnerving and piercing stare, capable to drive a person looking at these eyes – insane&#xA;&#xA;http://www.ancientpages.com/2017/02/09/boobrie-shape-shifting-mythical-horror-bird-from-scottish-highlands/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16305" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4866" RevisionGUID="8a7ddcad-95a3-41b7-944e-ca75f5c7f7b6" CreationDate="2018-05-10T01:46:29.607" UserId="4962" Comment="added 108 characters in body; added 159 characters in body" Text="Yes. Nessie, Blue men of Minch, Bean-Nighe, Bahr Geist, and wulvers are some examples.&#xA;&#xA;https://www.scotland.org/features/scottish-myths-folklore-and-legends&#xA;&#xA;http://godfinder.org/index.html?q=Scotland&#xA;&#xA;&gt; In Scottish folklore, the Loch Ness Monster or Nessie, is an aquatic being which reputedly inhabits Loch Ness in the Scottish Highlands.&#xA;&#xA;https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loch_Ness_Monster&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Wulvers are ofter called werewolves, but legend shows they are quite different. Said to inhabit the Shetland Islands to the north of the Scottish mainland.&#xA;&#xA;http://www.scotclans.com/the-scottish-wulver-the-kindly-werewolf/&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The Irish banshee and the Scottish bean nighe tread the darkest of nights as omens from another world, that of the unknown beyond.  Though similar at first glance, they were regarded as quite different beings. &#xA;&#xA;http://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends-europe/songs-and-shrouds-mythical-banshee-and-bean-nighe-harbingers-002876&#xA;&#xA;&gt; In Scottish folklore the Ghillie Dhu or Gille Dubh was a solitary male faerie. He was kindly and reticent yet sometimes wild in character but had a gentle devotion to children&#xA;&#xA;https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghillie_Dhu&#xA;&#xA;&gt;  A shape-shifting mythical water bird, Boobrie, is a huge, black creature flying through the water and haunting lakes and salt-water wells. In Scottish Highlands, there are many legends of this strange, gigantic bird with webbed feet, at the end of short legs, black wings, claws that resemble human hands and black eyes with a very unnerving and piercing stare, capable to drive a person looking at these eyes – insane&#xA;&#xA;http://www.ancientpages.com/2017/02/09/boobrie-shape-shifting-mythical-horror-bird-from-scottish-highlands/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16306" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4866" RevisionGUID="28cacf6e-52b9-4a11-afeb-c7ad62243294" CreationDate="2018-05-10T04:35:20.853" UserId="4962" Comment="added 369 characters in body; deleted 87 characters in body" Text="Yes.  Below are some I believe hit the mark.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; In Scottish folklore, the Loch Ness Monster or Nessie, is an aquatic being which reputedly inhabits Loch Ness in the Scottish Highlands.&#xA;&#xA;https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loch_Ness_Monster&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Wulvers are ofter called werewolves, but legend shows they are quite different. Said to inhabit the Shetland Islands to the north of the Scottish mainland.&#xA;&#xA;http://www.scotclans.com/the-scottish-wulver-the-kindly-werewolf/&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The Irish banshee and the Scottish bean nighe tread the darkest of nights as omens from another world, that of the unknown beyond.  Though similar at first glance, they were regarded as quite different beings. &#xA;&#xA;http://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends-europe/songs-and-shrouds-mythical-banshee-and-bean-nighe-harbingers-002876&#xA;&#xA;&gt; In Scottish folklore the Ghillie Dhu or Gille Dubh was a solitary male faerie. He was kindly and reticent yet sometimes wild in character but had a gentle devotion to children&#xA;&#xA;https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghillie_Dhu&#xA;&#xA;&gt;  A shape-shifting mythical water bird, Boobrie, is a huge, black creature flying through the water and haunting lakes and salt-water wells. In Scottish Highlands, there are many legends of this strange, gigantic bird with webbed feet, at the end of short legs, black wings, claws that resemble human hands and black eyes with a very unnerving and piercing stare, capable to drive a person looking at these eyes – insane&#xA;&#xA;http://www.ancientpages.com/2017/02/09/boobrie-shape-shifting-mythical-horror-bird-from-scottish-highlands/&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Interestingly, the Blue Men of Minch, also known as Storm Kelpies are unheard of in other parts of Scotland and there are without counterparts in the rest of the world. They should not be confused with the Fin Folk, mythical amphibious sea people on Orkney and Shetland.&#xA;&#xA;http://www.ancientpages.com/2016/05/13/legend-blue-men-minch-mythological-creatures-real-men/&#xA;&#xA;Potentially more here...  http://godfinder.org/index.html?q=Scotland" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16311" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4889" RevisionGUID="9d3f43ee-b260-46fe-9454-e5b8d30bd904" CreationDate="2018-05-10T09:44:57.987" UserId="2682" Text="The wording of the translation here has brought about some confusion. There is no character named &quot;Ulysses Pidytes.&quot; Rather the sentence is describing the deaths of three men on the Trojan side as caused by three men on the Greek side, just as in the broader context of this whole first section of Book 6: Polypoetes kills Astyalus, then &quot;Ulysses&quot; kills Pidytes [of Percote], and then Teucer kills Aretaon. The translator has simply chosen not to repeat the verb in each instance like I have just done.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The book starts off with Ajax spearing the best Thracian warrior Acamas through the head, then Diomedes kills two guys, and then Euryalus slays another four dudes before we come to the line which you quote, in which three other Trojans meet their end.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So no, Pidytes is not a last name: it is simply the name of a warrior from Percote who is killed *by* &quot;Ulysses.&quot; This is the only time Pidytes is ever mentioned as a character, as with many of his fellow dead. According to [William Cowper's 1791 translation](https://books.google.com/books?id=0UEXAAAAYAAJ&amp;pg=PA148) of your quote: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Dauntless Polypœtes slew Astyalus.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ulysses with his spear  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Transfixed Pydites, a Percosian Chief,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Teucer Aretaön...&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Either by error or from preference, Cowper renders *Pidytes* as &quot;Pydites.&quot;) For the characters' names and for place-names, Andrew Lang, Walter Leaf &amp; Ernest Myers, in [their 1893 version](https://archive.org/stream/langhomeriliad00homerich#page/112/mode/2up), use transliterations which are closer to the Greek original:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;And stubborn Polypoites slew Astyalos, and Odysseus with spear of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bronze laid low Pidytes of Perkote, and so did Teukros to goodly&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aretaon.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going by [Augustus Taber Murray's 1924 rendition](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Iliad_(Murray)/Book_VI):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;And Polypoetes staunch in fight slew Astyalus, and Odysseus with his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; spear of bronze laid low Pidytes of Percote, and Teucer goodly&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aretaon.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On A.S. Kline's [Poetry in Translation](https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad6.php) website:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Now rugged Polypoetes killed Astyalus, while Odysseus slew Pidytes of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Percote with his bronze spear, and Teucer noble Aretaon.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are you saying that your edition/copy of Samuel Butler's *Iliad* translation uses Greek names for the gods but has &quot;Ulysses&quot; instead of &quot;Odysseus&quot;? Every version/edition of Butler's *Iliad* that I have seen uses Roman names for all the characters, whether divine or not. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus is *Jove* throughout, except for an introductory note at the beginning of Book 14, where he is &quot;Jupiter&quot; (and a bewildering instance toward the end of Book 16 in which &quot;Zeus&quot; is mentioned, and which is surely a mistake[?]). Athene/Athena is always &quot;Minerva,&quot; Ares is &quot;Mars&quot; and Aphrodite is &quot;Venus.&quot; Similarly, in place of *Odysseus* we have &quot;Ulysses.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Butler, who translated in 1898, like Cowper over a hundred years previously, was following a convention in certain circles in which, it seems, it was hip to be as Latinate/Roman as possible when dealing with the classics.* For the sake of consistency, then, while using the Roman names of the gods, Odysseus would uniformly be referred to by his Roman name: thus &quot;Ulysses.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(It is on account of such Roman &quot;hipness&quot; that in present-day English-speaking popular culture, Hercules [mentioned in Butler's *Iliad*] is the better-known name for Herakles/Heracles, even while using Greek names for every other character [see, e.g., the [1997 Disney movie *Hercules*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercules_(1997_film))].) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*&lt;sub&gt;But maybe your Barnes&amp;Noble Collectible Edition (of Butler) does this differently...?&lt;/sub&gt;   " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16313" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4890" RevisionGUID="eeb600bb-8017-468c-8b62-9490b50c481b" CreationDate="2018-05-10T19:28:24.140" UserId="2807" Text="In the [Cyropaedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyropaedia), the fictional biography of Cyrus the Great written by Xenophon, there are, at least, 26 instances of [&quot;Zeus&quot;](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/searchresults?documents=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0204&amp;language=en&amp;inContent=true&amp;all_words=zeus&amp;any_words=&amp;bad_words=#), many of them used like... &quot;By Zeus!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of course this is [*interpretatio graeca*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretatio_graeca) but, if we reverse the process, who would be that god of the Achaemenids that in Xenophon's work is called &quot;Zeus&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16314" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4890" RevisionGUID="eeb600bb-8017-468c-8b62-9490b50c481b" CreationDate="2018-05-10T19:28:24.140" UserId="2807" Text="Persian Zeus in Xenophon's Cyropaedia" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16315" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4890" RevisionGUID="eeb600bb-8017-468c-8b62-9490b50c481b" CreationDate="2018-05-10T19:28:24.140" UserId="2807" Text="|comparative|zeus|persian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16316" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4890" RevisionGUID="9377eecb-39ff-44f0-b1dd-80d407c6ecf4" CreationDate="2018-05-10T19:37:46.500" UserId="2807" Comment="deleted 20 characters in body" Text="In the [Cyropaedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyropaedia), the fictional biography of Cyrus the Great, there are, at least, 26 instances of [&quot;Zeus&quot;](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/searchresults?documents=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0204&amp;language=en&amp;inContent=true&amp;all_words=zeus&amp;any_words=&amp;bad_words=#), many of them used like... &quot;By Zeus!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of course this is [*interpretatio graeca*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretatio_graeca) but, if we reverse the process, who would be that god of the Achaemenids that in Xenophon's work is called &quot;Zeus&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16317" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4890" RevisionGUID="20e6f1e7-039f-4c79-84f7-87c5d070afc7" CreationDate="2018-05-10T19:48:02.667" UserId="2807" Comment="added 3 characters in body" Text="In the [Cyropaedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyropaedia), the fictional biography of Cyrus the Great, there are, at least, 26 instances of [&quot;Zeus&quot;](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/searchresults?documents=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0204&amp;language=en&amp;inContent=true&amp;all_words=zeus&amp;any_words=&amp;bad_words=#), in many of them used like... &quot;By Zeus!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of course this is [*interpretatio graeca*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretatio_graeca) but, if we reverse the process, who would be that god of the Achaemenids that in Xenophon's work is called &quot;Zeus&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16318" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4890" RevisionGUID="b9a637e4-c1fc-44fb-99c6-12a5e630fbdd" CreationDate="2018-05-10T21:03:51.523" UserId="2807" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="In the [*Cyropaedia*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyropaedia), the fictional biography of Cyrus the Great, there are, at least, 26 instances of [&quot;Zeus&quot;](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/searchresults?documents=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0204&amp;language=en&amp;inContent=true&amp;all_words=zeus&amp;any_words=&amp;bad_words=#), in many of them used like... &quot;By Zeus!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of course this is [*interpretatio graeca*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretatio_graeca) but, if we reverse the process, who would be that god of the Achaemenids that in Xenophon's work is called &quot;Zeus&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16320" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4890" RevisionGUID="6889c3fb-1ab1-42d1-ae66-810186570090" CreationDate="2018-05-11T10:34:59.513" UserId="2807" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="In the [*Cyropaedia*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyropaedia), the fictional biography of Cyrus the Great, there are, at least, 26 instances of [&quot;Zeus&quot;](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/searchresults?documents=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0204&amp;language=en&amp;inContent=true&amp;all_words=zeus&amp;any_words=&amp;bad_words=#), in many of them used like... &quot;By Zeus!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is [*interpretatio graeca*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretatio_graeca), of course, but, if we reverse the process, who would be that god of the Achaemenids that in Xenophon's work gets called &quot;Zeus&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16321" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4890" RevisionGUID="f74e646b-e57f-4635-88ef-6fd9b94f0956" CreationDate="2018-05-11T10:47:04.280" UserId="2807" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body" Text="In the [*Cyropaedia*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyropaedia), the fictional biography of Cyrus the Great, there are, at least, 26 instances of [&quot;Zeus&quot;](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/searchresults?documents=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0204&amp;language=en&amp;inContent=true&amp;all_words=zeus&amp;any_words=&amp;bad_words=#), in many cases used like... &quot;By Zeus!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is [*interpretatio graeca*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretatio_graeca), of course, but, if we reverse the process, who would be that god of the Achaemenids that in Xenophon's work gets called &quot;Zeus&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16322" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4891" RevisionGUID="2c133f26-362c-42e5-8535-7281433884cd" CreationDate="2018-05-11T15:00:13.360" UserId="2807" Text="Found the answer in the book [*Xenophon's Cyropaedia: Style, Genre, and Literary Technique*](https://books.google.es/books?id=uqTIHmg4LsoC&amp;pg=PA56&amp;lpg=PA56&amp;dq=persian+zeus+cyropaedia+%22ahura+mazda%22&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=YT4HGZl-id&amp;sig=VkuNhoTnlTPjdu4IBqE9E4Rq6RE&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwirp7nY8v3aAhXF0xQKHehTAUQQ6AEwCHoECAAQTQ#v=onepage&amp;q=persian%20zeus%20cyropaedia%20%22ahura%20mazda%22&amp;f=false), by Professor Deborah Levine Gera:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The gods Cyrus sacrifices to are all Greek ones, although Xenophon may&#xD;&#xA;&gt; have had their Persian counterparts in mind: Zeus is actually meant to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; be Ahura Mazda, Hestia is the god of the hearth-fire, Helios is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mithra, etc." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16323" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4892" RevisionGUID="abae08e0-b186-4f45-acab-401dd8cdbfac" CreationDate="2018-05-11T15:00:41.430" UserId="5013" Text="If Grimms *&quot;Kinder und Hausmärchen*&quot; (AKA Grimms Fairy Tales) count, then the obvious tale is &quot;Van den Machandelboom&quot; (AKA &quot;The Juniper Tree&quot;). Mom wished for a child &quot;*only a child so red as blood and so white as snow!*&quot; Then &quot;*she had a child, so white as snow and so red as blood; and when she saw that, so she was so happy, that she died.*&quot; How long the mother is still alive after the birth is not actually mentioned, but it appears to be right after the birth of the child that she dies." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16324" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4891" RevisionGUID="19282a43-6f52-4eed-8401-1917be196a63" CreationDate="2018-05-11T15:19:11.477" UserId="2807" Comment="added 1417 characters in body" Text="Found the answer in the book [*Xenophon's Cyropaedia: Style, Genre, and Literary Technique*](https://books.google.es/books?id=uqTIHmg4LsoC&amp;pg=PA56&amp;lpg=PA56&amp;dq=persian+zeus+cyropaedia+%22ahura+mazda%22&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=YT4HGZl-id&amp;sig=VkuNhoTnlTPjdu4IBqE9E4Rq6RE&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwirp7nY8v3aAhXF0xQKHehTAUQQ6AEwCHoECAAQTQ#v=onepage&amp;q=persian%20zeus%20cyropaedia%20%22ahura%20mazda%22&amp;f=false), by Professor Deborah Levine Gera:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The gods Cyrus sacrifices to are all Greek ones, although Xenophon may&#xD;&#xA;&gt; have had their Persian counterparts in mind: Zeus is actually meant to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; be Ahura Mazda, Hestia is the god of the hearth-fire, Helios is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mithra, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [*Traditions of the Magi: Zoroastrianism in Greek and Latin Literature*](https://books.google.es/books?id=cNUEnHU0BPoC&amp;pg=PA259&amp;lpg=PA259&amp;dq=persian+zeus+%22ahura+mazda%22&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=ZIJGl_ThD-&amp;sig=t9vB3Rya3KPEDEZj7PtR7mYyCVI&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwjHltvj9v3aAhWEVRQKHTpKAuIQ6AEwCHoECAAQTw#v=onepage&amp;q=persian%20zeus%20%22ahura%20mazda%22&amp;f=false), by Dr. Albert F. de Jong the question is more thoroughly addressed:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Ahura Mazda = Zeus*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The identification of Ahura Mazda with Zeus is more frequently&#xD;&#xA;&gt; encountered in Greek literature than the Iranian name of the divinity.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is commonly accepted that it is always Ahura Mazda who is to be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; understood when Greek authors mention Zeus among the Persians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As an example, the same Persian Zeus can be found earlier in Herodotus' *Histories*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As to the customs of the Persians, I know them to be these. It is not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their custom to make and set up statues and temples and altars, but&#xD;&#xA;&gt; those who do such things they think foolish, because, I suppose, they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; have never believed the gods to be like men, as the Greeks do; but&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they call the whole circuit of heaven Zeus, and to him they sacrifice&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on the highest peaks of the mountains; they sacrifice also to the sun&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and moon and earth and fire and water and winds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Hdt. 1.131](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hdt.+1.131&amp;fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16325" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4893" RevisionGUID="34aaeea9-b593-49c6-bd28-2edd31543b85" CreationDate="2018-05-11T15:46:30.853" UserId="4525" Text="&gt; One belief is that when a kitsune changes shape, its hoshi no tama holds a portion of its magical power. Another tradition is that the pearl represents the kitsune's soul; the kitsune will die if separated from it for long. Those who obtain the ball may be able to extract a promise from the kitsune to help them in exchange for its return&#xA;&#xA;This is what wikipedia says about kitsune in the article about kitsune.&#xA;&#xA;It also states that when kitsune gets old enough it ascends to heaven, so they are immortal in that sense.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; After reaching 1,000 years of age and gaining its ninth tail, a kitsune turns a golden color, becoming a 'Tenko' (&quot;heavenly fox&quot;/&quot;celestial fox&quot;), the most powerful form of the kitsune, and then ascends to the heavens.&#xA;&#xA;Kitsune is surrounded by folklore, so the stories may vary. I would suggest reading the [article][1] yourself, since It is out of scope of this answer.&#xA;&#xA;But I have not found a mention about somebody killing a kitsune.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsune" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16326" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4894" RevisionGUID="d2e59971-eb41-4a03-80a4-8a7617d1f222" CreationDate="2018-05-11T15:50:21.423" UserId="4985" Text="I did some more research and found an article that references where Gaiman pulled some of the information from.  As @Drakonoved mentions Chernobog is the god of darkness, misery, etc. in Slavic myth and that there is no specific reference to a hammer.  The article from [Radio Times][1] expands on this further:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;There is no particular mythic connection between Czernobog and his sledgehammer, though it’s not a huge leap of imagination to see how bloody murder fits with his character.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;But adding in the sledgehammer allows Gaiman to construct an intriguing backstory about worshippers of Czernobog. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Towards the end of the novel, Shadow and Mr Nancy and Czernobog stop at a clearing near Cherryvale in Kansas. The site is sacred for the old Slavic god, who draws sustenance and power from the memory of past worship. Here, in the clearing, the “Benders” made human sacrifices using a hammer, his weapon of choice.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;This is a reference to a 19th century family of serial killers known as the Bloody Benders, who lived on that spot and murdered visitors for the fun of it – seating them above a trap door, stepping out from behind a curtain with a sledgehammer and bludgeoning them to death before dropping them into a pit.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Benders were likely German or Dutch rather than Slavic worshippers of Czernobog, but that doesn’t stop him gaining power from the sacrifice. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So while the hammer isn't present in the original Slavic myths there is a tangential link pulled through by the author to 19th Century grisly murders.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2017-05-30/american-gods-mythology-guide-who-is-bloodthirsty-slavic-deity-czernobog/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16327" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4895" RevisionGUID="5aa34f60-4321-4c5c-a555-51268b8fa138" CreationDate="2018-05-11T16:04:39.390" UserId="5047" Text="Late to the party, but according to Tv Tropes, this happens two myths; in the Bible, Jacob's wife Rachel dies while giving birth to her son Benjamin and Japanese goddess Izanami dies while giving birth to fire god Kagutsuchi. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeathByChildbirth&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(open the &quot;Religion and Mythology&quot; section.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16328" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4892" RevisionGUID="f2d6ef6c-bb5c-4716-9074-9d0e1db01e13" CreationDate="2018-05-11T16:21:19.247" UserId="5013" Comment="added 410 characters in body" Text="If Grimms *&quot;Kinder und Hausmärchen*&quot; (AKA Grimms Fairy Tales) count, then the obvious tale is &quot;Van den Machandelboom&quot; (AKA &quot;The Juniper Tree&quot;). Mom wished for a child &quot;*only a child so red as blood and so white as snow!*&quot; Then &quot;*she had a child, so white as snow and so red as blood; and when she saw that, so she was so happy, that she died.*&quot; How long the mother is still alive after the birth is not actually mentioned, but it appears to be right after the birth of the child that she dies. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See also *&quot;Sneewittchen&quot; (AKA &quot;&quot;Snow White&quot;)*. After the first edition of the KHM (2nd ed of 1819 and onwards) Snow White's mother dies right after having given birth to her. In the first ed, the mother lives and there is no step-mother character. The beginning is similar to &quot;The Juniper Tree.&quot; The mother also says: &quot;*if I only had a child so white as snow, so red as blood and so black as this frame*.&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16329" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4895" RevisionGUID="31e9b51d-dfa5-4e4e-8c43-681861057c84" CreationDate="2018-05-11T16:49:44.203" UserId="2892" Comment="added 183 characters in body" Text="Late to the party, but according to Tv Tropes, this happens two myths; in the Bible, Jacob's wife Rachel dies while giving birth to her son Benjamin and Japanese goddess Izanami dies while giving birth to fire god Kagutsuchi. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeathByChildbirth&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(open the &quot;Religion and Mythology&quot; section.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Kagu-tsuchi (re: Izanami)][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Rachel (re: Benjamin)][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kagu-tsuchi&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel#Death_and_burial" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16330" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4895" RevisionGUID="2dff0655-ad74-4dec-abbc-1c8cba7ec601" CreationDate="2018-05-11T16:54:50.603" UserId="2892" Comment="added 183 characters in body" Text="Late to the party, but according to Tv Tropes, this happens three myths; in the Bible, Jacob's wife Rachel dies while giving birth to her son Benjamin and Japanese goddess Izanami dies while giving birth to fire god Kagutsuchi; and the Cyrpian version of Ariadne. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeathByChildbirth&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(open the &quot;Religion and Mythology&quot; section.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Kagu-tsuchi (re: Izanami)][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Rachel (re: Benjamin)][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Aridne (re: Cypriote cult)][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kagu-tsuchi&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel#Death_and_burial&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariadne#As_a_goddess" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16331" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4892" RevisionGUID="17e43295-1f90-4e7c-8f68-f6641d26d0bf" CreationDate="2018-05-11T16:57:28.233" UserId="2892" Comment="added 130 characters in body" Text="If Grimms *&quot;Kinder und Hausmärchen*&quot; (AKA Grimms Fairy Tales) count, then the obvious tale is &quot;Van den Machandelboom&quot; (AKA &quot;[The Juniper Tree][1]&quot;). Mom wished for a child &quot;*only a child so red as blood and so white as snow!*&quot; Then &quot;*she had a child, so white as snow and so red as blood; and when she saw that, so she was so happy, that she died.*&quot; How long the mother is still alive after the birth is not actually mentioned, but it appears to be right after the birth of the child that she dies. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See also *&quot;Sneewittchen&quot; (AKA &quot;[Snow White][2]&quot;)*. After the first edition of the KHM (2nd ed of 1819 and onwards) Snow White's mother dies right after having given birth to her. In the first ed, the mother lives and there is no step-mother character. The beginning is similar to &quot;The Juniper Tree.&quot; The mother also says: &quot;*if I only had a child so white as snow, so red as blood and so black as this frame*.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Juniper_Tree_(fairy_tale)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_White" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16332" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4896" RevisionGUID="e89d277b-e5b9-4b73-9c69-95753ec7cbd1" CreationDate="2018-05-11T17:30:17.970" UserId="5048" Text="There are countless depictions of Cerberus with various number of heads or additional parts such as snake heads or tails. Some even say that Cerberus did not refer to a dog or hound at all, but rather a snake.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most iconic modern interpretation that comes to mind (for me and through ignoring Shin Megami Tensei series) is a breed that resembles a rottweiler, but what breeds would also work? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16333" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4896" RevisionGUID="e89d277b-e5b9-4b73-9c69-95753ec7cbd1" CreationDate="2018-05-11T17:30:17.970" UserId="5048" Text="What kind of dog breed would Cerberus be?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16334" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4896" RevisionGUID="e89d277b-e5b9-4b73-9c69-95753ec7cbd1" CreationDate="2018-05-11T17:30:17.970" UserId="5048" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16337" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4835" RevisionGUID="b8411245-f2c9-440f-8b0f-cc3994403078" CreationDate="2018-05-11T18:45:09.570" UserId="4525" Comment="typo in the title and some sketchy looking grammar." Text="In Greek culture, it was frowned upon (to put it lightly) for a woman to die during child birth. Are any myths told of a woman dying during child birth? Did the mother dying have any effect on the child's reputation?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16338" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4835" RevisionGUID="b8411245-f2c9-440f-8b0f-cc3994403078" CreationDate="2018-05-11T18:45:09.570" UserId="4525" Comment="typo in the title and some sketchy looking grammar." Text="Are there any myths where a woman dies in childbirth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16339" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4835" RevisionGUID="b8411245-f2c9-440f-8b0f-cc3994403078" CreationDate="2018-05-11T18:45:09.570" Comment="Proposed by 4525 approved by 42, 967 edit id of 1642" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16340" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4897" RevisionGUID="a9c206c8-fd22-40ce-965e-a569d7ea67db" CreationDate="2018-05-11T19:25:22.763" UserId="2892" Text="According to Ovid:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But even in despair and utmost grief,&#xD;&#xA;there is an ingenuity which gives&#xD;&#xA;inventive genius to protect from harm:&#xD;&#xA;and now, the grief-distracted Philomela&#xD;&#xA;wove in a warp with purple marks and white,&#xD;&#xA;a story of the crime; and when 'twas done&#xD;&#xA;she gave it to her one attendant there&#xD;&#xA;and begged her by appropriate signs to take&#xD;&#xA;it secretly to Procne. She took the web,&#xD;&#xA;she carried it to Procne, with no thought&#xD;&#xA;of words or messages by art conveyed.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [*Metamorphoses* VI.553 ff][1].&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Essentially, she used pantomime, &quot;begging her by appropriate signs.&quot;  If you ever get a chance to see a production of [Titus Andronicus][2], you'll see a variant of this scene involving Lavinia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D6%3Acard%3D504&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus_Andronicus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16345" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4893" RevisionGUID="16974cc1-0be2-4753-8a0c-40abdab790d9" CreationDate="2018-05-12T01:30:15.370" UserId="4271" Comment="deleted 4 characters in body" Text="&gt; One belief is that when a kitsune changes shape, its hoshi no tama holds a portion of its magical power. Another tradition is that the pearl represents the kitsune's soul; the kitsune will die if separated from it for long. Those who obtain the ball may be able to extract a promise from the kitsune to help them in exchange for its return&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is what the Wikipedia article says about kitsune.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It also states that when kitsune gets old enough it ascends to heaven, so they are immortal in that sense.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; After reaching 1,000 years of age and gaining its ninth tail, a kitsune turns a golden color, becoming a 'Tenko' (&quot;heavenly fox&quot;/&quot;celestial fox&quot;), the most powerful form of the kitsune, and then ascends to the heavens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kitsune is surrounded by folklore, so the stories may vary. I would suggest reading the [article][1] yourself, since It is out of scope of this answer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But I have not found a mention about somebody killing a kitsune.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsune" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16347" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="4874" RevisionGUID="9901dba7-21bd-4561-abe2-a9b70f8d857a" CreationDate="2018-05-12T01:45:37.043" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|japanese|shinto|numerology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16348" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4853" RevisionGUID="6a68aa17-2c00-4b96-8457-0454ee76adc1" CreationDate="2018-05-12T01:58:16.340" UserId="4271" Comment="added to myth" Text="The riddle we all know is- What creature walks on 4 legs in the morning, 2 in the afternoon and 3 in the evening? The answer is a human in relation to the stages of life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [second][1], and possibly older, riddle it thus- There exists two sisters. The first gives birth to the second and she in turn gives birth to the first. Who and two sisters? The answer is Day and Night in relation to the rising and setting of the sun.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is (modernly) explained the he arrived at the answer because of his own lameness (his father tethered and pirced his legs together as an infant, making him unable to crawl). Or he is [very observant of humans.][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But what explanation could explain how Oedipus got his answer about the second riddle I mentioned?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphinx&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&amp;source=web&amp;rct=j&amp;url=https://philarchive.org/archive/EDWHDO&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjYr7v2zuraAhUR9WMKHU47C_sQFggnMAE&amp;usg=AOvVaw3hWCYiktabjOW5wxF2hZ1g" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16349" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="4896" RevisionGUID="1242fda7-5432-4694-9d97-cc62dadb29ae" CreationDate="2018-05-12T01:59:01.213" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|underworld|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16350" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4883" RevisionGUID="53df851a-e939-4fcf-b06b-d83b93dfe309" CreationDate="2018-05-12T06:26:21.560" UserId="108" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="As you know, the highlight of the ritual is throwing beans at the *oni*. This specific activity is known as *mame* (魔滅), meaning &quot;to destroy the demon&quot; (**魔**を**滅**する, **ma** wo **me**s suru). Alternatively, *mame* can also be rendered as 魔目, meaning &quot;demon's eyes&quot;. So to shoot the demon's eyes is *mame wo iru* (魔目を射る).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Japanese word for beans is *mame* (豆), and to roast beans is *mame wo iru* (豆を煎る).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**In other words, it's a pun.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Incidentally, the roasted soy beans are known as *fukumame* (福豆), meaning auspicious beans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In folklore, the custom is attributed to a story of a demon from [Mount Kurama](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Kurama), who ravaged nearby villagers.  His reign of terror was finally put to a stop when [Bishamonten](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vai%C5%9Brava%E1%B9%87a) revealed himself, and banished the demon by throwing roasted beans at its eyes. To this day there is a temple on the mountain, Kurama Dera dedicated to Bishamonten.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On a theoretical level, the Japanese believed the [&quot;Five Grains&quot;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Grains) to each house s &quot;grain spirit&quot;, and as such possess great ritual power. Rice were the most powerful, followed by soy beans (known simply as &quot;great beans&quot; (大豆) in Japanese).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Japan, azuki and other beans are symbolically powerful . . . Beans have long been valued both for nutrition and for ritual power.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Foster, Michael Dylan. The book of yokai: Mysterious creatures of Japanese folklore. University of California Press, 2015.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--- &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, it *doesn't* have to be soy beans. The [Shinetsu region](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin%27etsu_region) customarily uses shelled peanuts, for instance. It seems this is because the *setsubun* ritual ends with participants picking up the beans and eating as many beans as their number of years. For obvious reasons, it is more hygienic to use peanuts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anyway, there is technically no reason it has to be soy beans and not other types of beans. Some regions historically used red beans, and some temples use rice in similar rituals. It is likely that the ritual defaulted to soy beans due to their their widespread cultivation - and because their size makes clean up easier." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16352" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4899" RevisionGUID="44841419-04c2-4706-99b6-8a2de05f507e" CreationDate="2018-05-12T16:33:30.897" UserId="2807" Text="[Cerberus](http://www.theoi.com/Ther/KuonKerberos.html) was the son of [Echidna](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echidna_(mythology)), a half-woman half-snake, and [Typhon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhon), a huge serpentine horror. That's a hell of a pedigree for a dog.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More seriously, I imagine Cerberus had to be at least loosely based on the breeds already known by the ancient Greeks, and those were the Laconian and the Molossian hounds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Molossian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molossus_(dog)) breed was more robust and fierce, and was trained in combat from ancient times, so it is a more likely candidate to form a basis for the Cerberus myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's more info about ancient Greek dogs in this page: [Dogs in ancient Greece](http://www.hellenicaworld.com/Greece/Ancient/en/Dogs.html).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also found a book about Plutarch where the link between Cerberus and the Molossian hound is quite explicit:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Theseus and Perithous stole Helen, who went by lot to Theseus. Then&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the two set out to northwest Greece to find a wife for Perithous.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There they encountered the Molossian king Aidoneus (&quot;Hades&quot;), a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; possessive father with a beautiful daughter named Kore (&quot;Maiden,&quot; the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; euphemistic alternate name for Persephone in myth and cult) and a wife&#xD;&#xA;&gt; named Persephone. Loath to see Kore married, Aidoneus was accostumed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to force her suitors to wrestle with his hound Cerberus - Molossian&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hounds were proverbially big and fierce - and that was the end of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Perithous.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Plutarch](https://books.google.es/books?id=k3VDcBfCIdUC&amp;pg=PA78&amp;lpg=PA78&amp;dq=mythology+cerberus+molossian&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=v5796gMf-5&amp;sig=mbLI9OusnnggKLvIm0_QX1Te6k0&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwj1-fu6qoDbAhUBKywKHdyKD88Q6AEwC3oFCAAQggE#v=onepage&amp;q=mythology%20cerberus%20molossian&amp;f=false), by Robert Lamberton.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16353" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4900" RevisionGUID="436e595a-bf13-4d07-897e-f2bef5c79926" CreationDate="2018-05-12T19:39:34.350" UserId="4271" Text="This is a concept me and another came up with at Track Conference earlier this week.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am scarce to remember, as my knowledge of Christianity and the bible are limited, but, I think the reason the angel Lucifer was cast out of heaven was because he didn't accept the humans and that was a sin in God's eyes. This tells us that angels can be bad.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From what I'm told, humans can commit no sin that God will not eventually forgive. He sees all sins equally. When a human doesn't seek forgiveness, that human's soul goes to Hell. In Hell, the soul is tortured, tormented and corrupted. It eventually becomes a demon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So a demon is eventually a human soul and thus, God can still forgive forgive the human if it takes a path of redemption.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But the question is, *would* God forgive a demon and allow it entrance into heaven?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16354" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4900" RevisionGUID="436e595a-bf13-4d07-897e-f2bef5c79926" CreationDate="2018-05-12T19:39:34.350" UserId="4271" Text="If an angel can fall, can a demon rise?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16355" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4900" RevisionGUID="436e595a-bf13-4d07-897e-f2bef5c79926" CreationDate="2018-05-12T19:39:34.350" UserId="4271" Text="|christianity|concepts|demons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16356" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4901" RevisionGUID="14443960-6262-4ec5-b80c-d711439b3731" CreationDate="2018-05-12T23:49:52.423" UserId="5022" Text="'Something that lives is dearer to me than all the treasures in the world!'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So says the little man when offered treasures by the Queen in return for not taking her child as she'd previously agreed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But when she laments and weeps because she can't bear to be separated from her baby he pities her, and gives her the riddle of his unknown name to find.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Because he's a &quot;little man&quot;, a manikin, he can't find love and marriage. It seems that he has no need of wealth because of his knack of creating gold out of straw but he can't make a life with __his__ magic. So he's desperately lonely and craves companionship, a baby to care for, someone to be grateful to him and so take care of him in return, like children and parents' love for eachother. He clearly has sympathy for the Queen, feeling with her the unhappiness at losing her precious child, and offering her a reprieve, so it seems the child is precious to him as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps this story was told to prepare a girl for the end of childhood: Her father is trying to marry her off and the prospect of leaving her family home and beloved parents and going to a strange house to do God-knows-what with a strange adult man is stressful for the girl. A child often has a precious mannequin or doll that is imbued with character, power and intent by virtue of child-like imagination, and this entity, in the imagination of the child, would inherit the child's love of parents and feeling of being loved by parents through being loved like a baby by the child. This doll has magical creative power that is able to cope with any looming unnameable fear that lies beyond a child's natural range of comprehension (in the absence of sex education), and child and doll enjoy a secret relationship, involving secret language/sounds/names. But Mistress Miller's creative power, having a real child of her own, comes into play when she is able to relinquish her childhood (and her doll) symbolized by uttering the name of her half-imagined childhood friend. No longer needed after the birth of her own child the mannequin uses it's magical power to self-destruct and he conveniently tears himself in two!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's a theory." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16357" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4900" RevisionGUID="36f9e025-e58b-4453-afcd-e8ba87a11f34" CreationDate="2018-05-13T00:51:19.690" UserId="2807" Comment="Fixed typo, revised capitalization" Text="This is a concept me and another came up with at Track Conference earlier this week.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am scarce to remember, as my knowledge of Christianity and the bible are limited, but, I think the reason the angel Lucifer was cast out of Heaven was because he didn't accept the humans and that was a sin in God's eyes. This tells us that angels can be bad.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From what I'm told, humans can commit no sin that God will not eventually forgive. He sees all sins equally. When a human doesn't seek forgiveness, that human's soul goes to Hell. In Hell, the soul is tortured, tormented and corrupted. It eventually becomes a demon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So a demon is eventually a human soul and thus, God can still forgive the human if it takes a path of redemption.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But the question is, *would* God forgive a demon and allow it entrance into Heaven?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16358" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4900" RevisionGUID="36f9e025-e58b-4453-afcd-e8ba87a11f34" CreationDate="2018-05-13T00:51:19.690" Comment="Proposed by 2807 approved by 4271 edit id of 1643" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16359" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2762" RevisionGUID="a5f23c23-2f1e-46e6-9f8e-d74dccff2b54" CreationDate="2018-05-13T01:03:41.277" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|mythical-creatures|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16360" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4580" RevisionGUID="1a461cd9-0d97-4abc-9286-868bb75c745c" CreationDate="2018-05-13T02:01:13.660" UserId="4271" Comment="edited title" Text="Why did Izanami speaking first cause her and Izanagi bad luck with procreation?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16361" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4902" RevisionGUID="2cb741bc-5908-46ec-9e48-5b9950376093" CreationDate="2018-05-13T02:54:35.857" UserId="4987" Text="I was wondering if anyone knows of two stories/gods/creatures/etc in mythology that have very distinct similarities/connections when compared with each other? I want to make a list or a chart with all the similarities. Any contribution would be helpful!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16362" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4902" RevisionGUID="2cb741bc-5908-46ec-9e48-5b9950376093" CreationDate="2018-05-13T02:54:35.857" UserId="4987" Text="Comparative Mythology: What stories have very clear similarities?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16363" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4902" RevisionGUID="2cb741bc-5908-46ec-9e48-5b9950376093" CreationDate="2018-05-13T02:54:35.857" UserId="4987" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16364" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="325" RevisionGUID="ba4b4977-b53b-453d-a379-135e6f915886" CreationDate="2018-05-13T04:55:14.510" UserId="5022" Comment="grammar, formatting" Text="Maybe you should give a link to the version of the myth you are stating , as it is not in the wikipedia article linked below. The only mention about penises is in&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Plutarch also states that Set steals and dismembers the corpse only after Isis has retrieved it. Isis then finds and buries each piece of her husband's body, with the exception of the penis, which she has to reconstruct with magic, because the original was eaten by fish in the river. According to Plutarch, this is the reason the Egyptians had a taboo against eating fish. In Egyptian accounts, however, the penis of Osiris is found intact, and the only close parallel with this part of Plutarch's story is in &quot;The Tale of Two Brothers&quot;, a folk tale from the New Kingdom with similarities to the Osiris myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![isisosirishorus][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[From right to left][2]: Isis, her husband Osiris, and their son Horus, the protagonists of the Osiris myth, in a Twenty-second Dynasty statuette&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thinking on your version:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Were he not emasculated in his final form it would be expected that he would deal with Seth. He needed a son to vindicate his line and Isis managed it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is interesting that in this image Osiris is shown only from the waist up, indicative of the emasculation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The penis that Isis magically regenerated recalls the parthenogenesis myths in the region.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/12XQK.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris_myth" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16365" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="325" RevisionGUID="ba4b4977-b53b-453d-a379-135e6f915886" CreationDate="2018-05-13T04:55:14.510" Comment="Proposed by 5022 approved by 151 edit id of 1644" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16366" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4903" RevisionGUID="368dea40-b283-4814-9760-130eceff9d6e" CreationDate="2018-05-13T05:19:35.097" UserId="5053" Text="I am a Latin student, and currently studying the Trojan war myths&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How could Aphrodite, being the goddess of love (which is almost as far from being a war goddess as possible)help Paris and the Trojans during the Trojan war?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16367" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4903" RevisionGUID="368dea40-b283-4814-9760-130eceff9d6e" CreationDate="2018-05-13T05:19:35.097" UserId="5053" Text="How did Aphrodite even help the Trojans during the Trojan war?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16368" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4903" RevisionGUID="368dea40-b283-4814-9760-130eceff9d6e" CreationDate="2018-05-13T05:19:35.097" UserId="5053" Text="|greek|trojan-war|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16369" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4904" RevisionGUID="817949f6-2f5d-4bb0-ae77-6142114f52f6" CreationDate="2018-05-13T05:36:14.363" UserId="4962" Text="Flood myths shows up frequently.&#xA;&#xA;https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_flood_myths" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16370" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4904" RevisionGUID="e0dd1bf4-1c02-4fdd-a08d-cf60a65deb30" CreationDate="2018-05-13T05:43:54.100" UserId="4962" Comment="added 346 characters in body" Text="[Flood myths][1] shows up frequently.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The anthropologist Sir James Frazer compared ... &quot;dying god&quot; myths in his multi-volume work The Golden Bough.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Vedic India, ancient China, Mayans, Incas and the ancient Germans all had myths featuring a &quot;Cosmic Tree&quot; whose branches reach heaven and whose roots reach hell.&#xA;&#xA;https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_mythology&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_flood_myths" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16371" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4904" RevisionGUID="99ee24c1-4cbd-48d7-8eaa-8ce790835d4e" CreationDate="2018-05-13T05:50:13.333" UserId="4962" Comment="added 181 characters in body" Text="[Flood myths][1] shows up frequently.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The anthropologist Sir James Frazer compared ... &quot;dying god&quot; myths in his multi-volume work The Golden Bough.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Vedic India, ancient China, Mayans, Incas and the ancient Germans all had myths featuring a &quot;Cosmic Tree&quot; whose branches reach heaven and whose roots reach hell.&#xA;&#xA;https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_mythology&#xA;&#xA;&gt; untold numbers of people began to write books, papers, and dissertations on the parallels between Jesus and Osiris&#xA;&#xA;http://www.eoht.info/m/page/Comparative+religion+and+mythology&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_flood_myths" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16372" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4905" RevisionGUID="835a011c-e216-4867-81fd-2cf561b0fc27" CreationDate="2018-05-13T05:51:22.837" UserId="5035" Text="Was there a time back then when Humans would make a war against a God or an Entity? How did those wars turn out for the two side? Were humans strong enough to make that challenge?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16373" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4905" RevisionGUID="835a011c-e216-4867-81fd-2cf561b0fc27" CreationDate="2018-05-13T05:51:22.837" UserId="5035" Text="Have Humans ever gone to war against Gods or Entities before?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16374" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4905" RevisionGUID="835a011c-e216-4867-81fd-2cf561b0fc27" CreationDate="2018-05-13T05:51:22.837" UserId="5035" Text="|history|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16375" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4906" RevisionGUID="5d19e538-6a30-48ce-a091-13e658eedacf" CreationDate="2018-05-13T05:54:28.217" UserId="4962" Text="&gt; In Greek mythology, gods were often fought by both other gods and mortals. The mortal Arachne soundly defeated Athena, the half-human Hercules killed tons of Poseidon’s sons, Hades kidnapped the god Persephone to become his wife, the great mortal soldier Diomedes beat Aphrodite and Aenea in battle, etc. There are plenty of stories out there of Greek gods being fought and defeated!&#xA;In Jewish theology, Yahweh is supposed to be perfect and undefeatable. Despite this, there are definitely ways you can imagine beating the Jewish God. When Satan made a bet with Yahweh that Job would turn away from Him, it was completely possible that Job could have failed the test after having his family and slaves murdered. Free will is supposed to be a very important thing to Yahweh, and as such, Job indubitably could have turned away from God. Why would Satan make a bet with God if he knew that God knew the answer? The bet would have never been made if Job’s fate was already sealed… Satan is described as being too clever to do something so stupid. Job could’ve cursed God, and Satan would have won the fight.&#xA;Moses also defeated Yahweh in an intellectual battle. Exodus 32 describes how God wanted to kill all of the Israelites after Aaron made them dance naked around the golden calf. Moses instead reasoned with God and told him to “turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.” God, seeing the wisdom of Moses, changed His mind, thus admitting that Moses’s idea is better than His own. Moses defeated God in a battle of ideas. “…And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.” Nice job, Moses!&#xA;&#xA;https://www.quora.com/Can-you-fight-God-and-win-Is-it-possible&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16376" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4907" RevisionGUID="14b5d53f-4395-45a6-bdda-f32546c98d32" CreationDate="2018-05-13T08:01:25.227" UserId="5054" Text="The serpent is a phallic symbol. Christianity frowned on overt pagan erotic symbols (not to mention behaviour). The mythical banishment of the snakes by Patrick represents the suppression of the old freewheeling pagan sexuality and its replacement by a more restrictive set of rules." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16377" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2094" RevisionGUID="dbc42901-e654-4f3b-aa35-3ff812f629ca" CreationDate="2018-05-13T08:32:16.693" UserId="4271" Comment="made more true to what tag means" Text="Questions asking for specific resource material (online or off) about a mythological and/or folklore book/text." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16378" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2094" RevisionGUID="dbc42901-e654-4f3b-aa35-3ff812f629ca" CreationDate="2018-05-13T08:32:16.693" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 2892, -1 edit id of 1640" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16379" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2094" RevisionGUID="dae24d33-a697-4819-adef-1f8c3bb1c3d5" CreationDate="2018-05-13T08:32:16.693" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 48 characters in body" Text="Questions looking for a specific text on mythology or folklore." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16380" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4580" RevisionGUID="862da4b4-f0fb-4254-b6c5-db92a6c0637f" CreationDate="2018-05-13T08:40:08.010" UserId="108" Comment="added 65 characters in body" Text="In Shintoism, [there is a legend](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izanami#Goddess_of_Creation) that says two gods, Izanagi and Izanami, walked around a pillar. The goddess spoke to the god, then the god spoke to the goddess. They had a few kids but were unsatisfied with them. They consulted other gods about their problem. They told them that the Izanagi should have spoken first and to redo going around the pillar. They did so and had better luck with their offspring.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why would the goddess speaking first cause bad luck with procreation?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16381" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4908" RevisionGUID="1120bf59-e6ca-4113-8c85-236ce2453b5e" CreationDate="2018-05-13T11:44:33.887" UserId="108" Text="This legend is found in the [Kojiki](http://www.shiro1000.jp/kojiki/text.html), the oldest &quot;history book&quot; from Japan. The original text makes the reason quite plain: **because Izanami is a woman.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 告其妹曰「女人先言、不良」 . . . 「因女先言而不良」&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He then told his sister, &quot;The woman speaking first is bad&quot; . . .  [they copulated anyway and then consulted the gods, who advised:] . . . &quot;It was bad **because the woman spoke** first.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As is apparent by the use of Chinese, Kojiki was written at a time when Japan was importing Chinese ideas wholescale. One aspect of the Confucian philosophy was the concept &quot;男尊女卑&quot;, *lit*. &quot;male superiority, female inferiority&quot;. Since Kojiki was commissioned by the Imperial family for propaganda purposes, it has been theorised that this passage reflected the Yamato Court's then ongoing effort to implement [Chinese legalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritsury%C5%8D).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Ancient Japan was not originally patriarchal; hence, the theorised need for ideological propaganda to justify the reforms being adopted at the time.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are various theoretical frameworks to rationalise this belief. For instance, under the [*yin* and *yang*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang), duality men are held to be *yang* while women are *yin*. Yet, according to [Dong Zhongsu's](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dong_Zhongshu) theorem:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 物隨陽而出入，數隨陽而終始，三王之正隨陽而更起。以此見之，貴陽而賤陰也。&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; All things rise and rests with *yang*; the year begins and ends with *yang* . . . therefore, *yang* is noble and *ying* is lowly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regardless, it's pretty obvious that Yannis' initial observation applies: **it's blatant chauvinism**." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16382" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4909" RevisionGUID="9bf06840-e936-4149-a8a5-588f7bbc9e04" CreationDate="2018-05-13T12:21:57.167" UserId="2807" Text="Being the goddess of beauty and love doesn't turn Aphrodite harmless, quite the contrary.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Theoi](http://www.theoi.com/) site gives a [full summary of Aphrodite's role in the Trojan war](http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/AphroditeMyths2.html#Troy).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  - Convince Ares to side with the Trojans.&#xD;&#xA;  - Save Paris when he loses his duel against Menelaos.&#xD;&#xA;  - Wounded by Diomedes while trying to save Aeneas. &#xD;&#xA;  - Takes part in the battle of the gods after Patroklos death.&#xD;&#xA;  - She and Apollo protect the corpse of Hector until it can be ransomed by his father Priam.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And this is only in the *Iliad*, Aphrodite also protects Aeneas (his son) and helps him escape after the fall of Troy, and saves Helene from the wrath of Menelaos, rekindling their love.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's also notable that in the myths the Trojan War is originated by love and a beauty contest in which Aphrodite bought the jury (Paris) by offering him Helene's hand.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16383" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="4831" RevisionGUID="e1b40ec2-d219-4d05-b252-c6d5c6d79f73" CreationDate="2018-05-13T12:51:12.910" UserId="57" Comment="67" />
  <row Id="16384" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="4903" RevisionGUID="047236b6-59b0-4329-8ebe-5fcad4d9350d" CreationDate="2018-05-13T15:11:18.840" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|trojan-war|aphrodite|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16385" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4910" RevisionGUID="9d7583fc-988d-487f-93db-e020f7b194ad" CreationDate="2018-05-13T15:43:04.647" UserId="4271" Text="I found something online mentioning a passage from the Odyssey, Book XVII. I checked it against my own Odyssey translated by Samuel Butler. The passage holds true.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;...Servants never do their work when their master hand is no longer over them, for Zeus takes half the goodness out of a man when he makes a slave of him.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why was it believed that Zeus took half the goodness of a mortal when they become a slave?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16386" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4910" RevisionGUID="9d7583fc-988d-487f-93db-e020f7b194ad" CreationDate="2018-05-13T15:43:04.647" UserId="4271" Text="Why did Zeus take half the goodness out of a man?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16387" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4910" RevisionGUID="9d7583fc-988d-487f-93db-e020f7b194ad" CreationDate="2018-05-13T15:43:04.647" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|zeus|homer|odyssey|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16388" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4911" RevisionGUID="dab561ad-d819-42be-942b-ef92ce55236e" CreationDate="2018-05-13T19:55:08.640" UserId="2807" Text="It's not a common acepted believe, just something that Eumaeus, the swineherd of Odysseus, says to his master while Odysseus is still in disguise.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Slaves, when their masters lose their power, are no longer minded&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thereafter to do honest service: for Zeus, whose voice is borne afar,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; takes away half his worth from a man, when the day of slavery comes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; upon him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;[*Odyssey*, XVII, 320](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D17)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This observation of Eumaeus is quite poignant, as he himself is a slave: his father was king of the island of Syra, but he was abducted and sold to Odysseus's father, the king Laertes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But there is no myth related to Zeus removing goodness of a man when becoming a slave. The passage you mention is just a poetical way in which Eumaeus complains about his condition, quite ironically, when he is about to prove his worth, aiding his masters Odysseus and Telemachus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The same quote can be found in Wikipedia article [Slavery in ancient Greece](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Greece), in [Origins of slavery](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Greece#Origins_of_slavery):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the *Iliad*, slaves are mainly women taken as booty of war, while men&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were either ransomed or killed on the battlefield. In the *Odyssey*, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; slaves also seem to be mostly women. These slaves were servants and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sometimes concubines. There were some male slaves, especially in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Odyssey*, a prime example being the swineherd Eumaeus. The slave was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; distinctive in being a member of the core part of the oikos (&quot;family&#xD;&#xA;&gt; unit&quot;, &quot;household&quot;): Laertes eats and drinks with his servants; in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; winter, he sleeps in their company. The term dmōs is not considered&#xD;&#xA;&gt; pejorative, and Eumaeus, the &quot;divine&quot; swineherd, bears the same&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Homeric epithet as the Greek heroes. **Slavery remained, however, a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; disgrace. Eumaeus himself declares, &quot;Zeus, of the far-borne voice,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; takes away the half of a man's virtue, when the day of slavery comes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; upon him&quot;.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16389" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4911" RevisionGUID="ea72e211-4636-4d90-a380-e3d089df21c2" CreationDate="2018-05-13T20:13:29.137" UserId="2807" Comment="added 1 character in body; added 22 characters in body" Text="It's not a common accepted believe, just something that Eumaeus, the swineherd of Odysseus, says to his master while Odysseus is still in disguise.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Slaves, when their masters lose their power, are no longer minded&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thereafter to do honest service: for Zeus, whose voice is borne afar,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; takes away half his worth from a man, when the day of slavery comes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; upon him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;[*Odyssey*, XVII, 320](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D17)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This observation of Eumaeus is quite poignant, as he himself is a slave: his father was king of the island of Syra, but he was abducted and sold to Odysseus's father, the king Laertes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But there is no myth related to Zeus removing goodness of a man when becoming a slave. The passage you mention is just a poetical way in which Eumaeus complains about his condition, quite ironically, when he is about to prove his worth, aiding his masters Odysseus and Telemachus against the suitors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The same quote can be found in this Wikipedia article: [Slavery in ancient Greece](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Greece), in [Origins of slavery](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Greece#Origins_of_slavery):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the *Iliad*, slaves are mainly women taken as booty of war, while men&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were either ransomed or killed on the battlefield. In the *Odyssey*, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; slaves also seem to be mostly women. These slaves were servants and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sometimes concubines. There were some male slaves, especially in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Odyssey*, a prime example being the swineherd Eumaeus. The slave was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; distinctive in being a member of the core part of the oikos (&quot;family&#xD;&#xA;&gt; unit&quot;, &quot;household&quot;): Laertes eats and drinks with his servants; in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; winter, he sleeps in their company. The term dmōs is not considered&#xD;&#xA;&gt; pejorative, and Eumaeus, the &quot;divine&quot; swineherd, bears the same&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Homeric epithet as the Greek heroes. **Slavery remained, however, a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; disgrace. Eumaeus himself declares, &quot;Zeus, of the far-borne voice,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; takes away the half of a man's virtue, when the day of slavery comes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; upon him&quot;.**&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16390" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3096" RevisionGUID="6d5934cb-da02-4c03-9b81-0474fa574058" CreationDate="2018-05-13T20:34:05.860" UserId="2892" Comment="added 76 characters in body" Text="The [story of Rumpelstiltskin][1] is quite well known, but I can't recall what his motivation for wanting the human child.  The question can be extended to Goblins in general. *(Although in the case of the Tengu, who sometimes would eat the babies, hunger for delicacies seems a sufficient motivation;)*  But for faeries in general who don't eat the infants, what is the impetus for baby stealing?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.eastoftheweb.com/short-stories/UBooks/Rum.shtml" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16391" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4912" RevisionGUID="d784b805-b801-4497-a907-eea3a22174b0" CreationDate="2018-05-13T21:03:21.183" UserId="5022" Text="&gt;The family unit was like a religion to people in the olden days and the importance of family honour more keenly felt, even to the extent that anything (bad) that happened in the family might have to stay in the family for fear of causing a _stink_ among friends' families and the wider society, which was, compared with now, a comparatively small community. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any external thing that threatened the family would have terrified the average married man or woman as much as total social exclusion would have. Any unmarried person of a certain age might have once been seen as a danger to civilized society, because the human norm of marriage and kids was far stricter then than now, so, particularly for women, the unmarried life was considered suspect, and something to keep at arm's length. When a supernatural element is added it seems to become for them a potential nightmare.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Modern statistics show that a significant portion of crimes committed against members of a household are committed by family members or friends of the family, the like of which in the olden days would more likely have been covered up and never talked about. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Physical abuse, sexual violence, incest, abortion and inbreeding could be repackaged as supernatural horror. Honour killings were perhaps more common in those days, and wild tales too, so there could be an neat explanation for a death or miscarriage that implicated, say, some unattached woman who lived out of town and who was really a secret vampire, or perhaps an undead family member, or something." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16392" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4911" RevisionGUID="0edde6fc-4c87-4681-af01-2ea7c7e5bb0d" CreationDate="2018-05-13T22:39:35.730" UserId="2807" Comment="Added Aristophanes reference; added 4 characters in body" Text="It's not a common accepted believe, just something that Eumaeus, the swineherd of Odysseus, says to his master while Odysseus is still in disguise.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Slaves, when their masters lose their power, are no longer minded&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thereafter to do honest service: for Zeus, whose voice is borne afar,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; takes away half his worth from a man, when the day of slavery comes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; upon him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;[*Odyssey*, XVII, 320](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D17)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This observation of Eumaeus is quite poignant, as he himself is a slave: his father was king of the island of Syra, but he was abducted and sold to Odysseus's father, the king Laertes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But there is no myth related to Zeus removing goodness of a man when becoming a slave. The passage you mention is just a poetical way in which Eumaeus complains about his condition, quite ironically, when he is about to prove his worth, aiding his masters Odysseus and Telemachus against the suitors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The same quote can be found in this Wikipedia article: [Slavery in ancient Greece](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Greece), in [Origins of slavery](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Greece#Origins_of_slavery):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the *Iliad*, slaves are mainly women taken as booty of war, while men&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were either ransomed or killed on the battlefield. In the *Odyssey*, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; slaves also seem to be mostly women. These slaves were servants and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sometimes concubines. There were some male slaves, especially in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Odyssey*, a prime example being the swineherd Eumaeus. The slave was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; distinctive in being a member of the core part of the oikos (&quot;family&#xD;&#xA;&gt; unit&quot;, &quot;household&quot;): Laertes eats and drinks with his servants; in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; winter, he sleeps in their company. The term dmōs is not considered&#xD;&#xA;&gt; pejorative, and Eumaeus, the &quot;divine&quot; swineherd, bears the same&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Homeric epithet as the Greek heroes. **Slavery remained, however, a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; disgrace. Eumaeus himself declares, &quot;Zeus, of the far-borne voice,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; takes away the half of a man's virtue, when the day of slavery comes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; upon him&quot;.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This idea of &quot;incompleteness&quot; in slavery is also expressed in the opening lines of the ancient Greek comedy [*Wealth* (Ploutos)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutus_(play)), where Aristophanes makes the slave Cario say this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; What an unhappy fate, great gods, to be the slave of a fool! A servant&#xD;&#xA;&gt; may give the best of advice, but if his master does not follow it, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; poor slave must inevitably have his share in the disaster; for fortune&#xD;&#xA;&gt; does not allow him to dispose of his own body, it belongs to his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; master who has bought it. Alas! 'tis the way of the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;[Aristoph. Pl. 1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0040%3Acard%3D1)&lt;/sup&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16393" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4913" RevisionGUID="60e442de-a1c3-436e-9348-c57e51e250a6" CreationDate="2018-05-13T23:27:54.063" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16394" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4913" RevisionGUID="60e442de-a1c3-436e-9348-c57e51e250a6" CreationDate="2018-05-13T23:27:54.063" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16395" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4914" RevisionGUID="1084b99e-b723-44e3-b00f-599358a1edfc" CreationDate="2018-05-13T23:27:54.063" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16396" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4914" RevisionGUID="1084b99e-b723-44e3-b00f-599358a1edfc" CreationDate="2018-05-13T23:27:54.063" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16397" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1805" RevisionGUID="fa71d803-1f51-4b8f-903f-24f10bbd9406" CreationDate="2018-05-13T23:42:50.217" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|folklore|native-american|cryptozoology|sasquatch|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16400" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4912" RevisionGUID="a12be4a4-a5e3-4c7a-bbab-ba32f2ed0400" CreationDate="2018-05-14T00:36:13.527" UserId="5022" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body" Text="The family unit was like a religion to people in the olden days and the importance of family honour more keenly felt, even to the extent that anything (bad) that happened in the family might have to stay in the family for fear of causing a _stink_ among friends' families and the wider society, which was, compared with now, a comparatively small community. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any external thing that threatened the family would have terrified the average married man or woman as much as total social exclusion would have. Any unmarried person of a certain age might have once been seen as a danger to civilized society, because the human norm of marriage and kids was far stricter then than now, so, particularly for women, the unmarried life was considered suspect, and something to keep at arm's length. When a supernatural element is added it seems to become for them a potential nightmare.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Modern statistics show that a significant portion of crimes committed against members of a household are committed by family members or friends of the family, the like of which in the olden days would more likely have been covered up and never talked about. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Physical abuse, sexual violence, incest, abortion and inbreeding could be repackaged as supernatural horror. Honour killings were perhaps more common in those days, and wild tales too, so there could be an neat explanation for a death or miscarriage that implicated, say, some unattached woman who lived out of town and who was really a secret vampire, or perhaps an undead family member, or something." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16401" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4860" RevisionGUID="c954dd26-e851-4653-83b2-cc9bfc724c20" CreationDate="2018-05-14T05:58:27.980" UserId="5022" Comment="typos, typos" Text="In research of past questions, I came across [Eleos][1]. Eleos is the personified daemon (lesser/inferior god) of piety, mercy, clemency (leniency), and compassion. She was always depicted as a young woman wearing a blue veil or dress. She was only recognized as a deity in Athens. But if one wished to be allied with Athens, they were to approach Eleos's statue/altar as a suppliant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Her Roman form was [Clementia][2]. In 44 BCE, it's believed that Caesar had the Roman State erect a temple to her as he was keen to demonstrate his virtue. After that, not much is known.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did other Greek/Roman cities/states have a deity they exclusively worshipped or recognized?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleos&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clementia" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16402" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4860" RevisionGUID="c954dd26-e851-4653-83b2-cc9bfc724c20" CreationDate="2018-05-14T05:58:27.980" Comment="Proposed by 5022 approved by 2682, 108 edit id of 1646" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16403" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="4902" RevisionGUID="af4e95c9-dc9d-49bb-9400-da07ce3893dd" CreationDate="2018-05-14T12:17:39.337" UserId="108" Comment="104" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:201,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Lauren Ipsum&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:108,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Semaphore&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="16405" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4915" RevisionGUID="fd88d40f-83fb-46a4-85b4-bf7339e136e8" CreationDate="2018-05-14T15:10:37.943" UserId="4271" Text="Ghosts were created long before electricity was invented. But for some reason, when a ghost is in the room, the lights flicker. Why is this? What is the scientific or spiritual explanation?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16406" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4915" RevisionGUID="fd88d40f-83fb-46a4-85b4-bf7339e136e8" CreationDate="2018-05-14T15:10:37.943" UserId="4271" Text="Why do ghosts mess with electricity?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16407" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4915" RevisionGUID="fd88d40f-83fb-46a4-85b4-bf7339e136e8" CreationDate="2018-05-14T15:10:37.943" UserId="4271" Text="|folklore|ghosts|modern-influence|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16408" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4916" RevisionGUID="30381775-b59f-43fa-9c11-61d1baa34668" CreationDate="2018-05-14T17:26:11.373" UserId="4271" Text="The flood myth, I have found, is unique because it does not appear as if the gods started it or caused it. Just that they knew of it and didn't warn or try to save the humans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...we learn that the gods have decided not to save mankind from an impending flood.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What started the flood if the gods were not the reason?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16409" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4916" RevisionGUID="30381775-b59f-43fa-9c11-61d1baa34668" CreationDate="2018-05-14T17:26:11.373" UserId="4271" Text="What started the flood in Sumerian?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16410" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4916" RevisionGUID="30381775-b59f-43fa-9c11-61d1baa34668" CreationDate="2018-05-14T17:26:11.373" UserId="4271" Text="|sumerian|creation|flood-myth|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16411" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4917" RevisionGUID="56baef14-2e45-4ce9-8e8d-988611814760" CreationDate="2018-05-14T17:51:33.920" UserId="2807" Text="Obviously, this is a modern trope, not true [tag:folklore], as electrification process took from around the 1880s to the 1960s.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I suspect this idea of ghosts affecting electricity originated in the movie [Poltergeist (1982)](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084516/), but in the [TV Tropes](http://tvtropes.org/) site, under their entry: [Electromagnetic Ghosts](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ElectromagneticGhosts), the older example I could find was Richard Matheson's [*Hell House*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell_House_(novel)), a novel that I've read and I can recommend - although I don't remember much going with the electricity in the book.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Looking for allegedly famous &quot;real&quot; [Poltergeist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poltergeist) in Wikipedia, I found that the earlier case where the paranormal and electricity were both involved is the [Rosenheim Poltergeist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenheim_Poltergeist), in the late 1960s, but there are no ghosts involved.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;About why supposed ghosts supposedly do this, I guess your guess is as good as mine." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16412" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4918" RevisionGUID="8dd3cc9a-0eb6-4fdb-b24f-ac43245fbb8d" CreationDate="2018-05-14T18:14:33.197" UserId="2807" Text="It is not known because the relevant part of the Sumerian version of the myth is missing, but in later versions the cause is the god Enlil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From an article in Livius.org: [The Great Flood: Sumerian version](http://www.livius.org/articles/misc/great-flood/flood2/).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The story survives on a cuneiform tablet from the seventeenth century&#xD;&#xA;&gt; BCE, of which only the lower third survives. However, this is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sufficient to establish that the pattern described above was already&#xD;&#xA;&gt; present. However, there are small differences. The Eridu Genesis must&#xD;&#xA;&gt; have begun with the Creation of Man, but continues with the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; establishment of kingship and a list of cities. Then comes the list of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; antediluvian rulers, which confirms the pattern again, and **the supreme&#xD;&#xA;&gt; god Enlil's decision to destroy mankind.** The reason was recorded on a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; missing part of the text, but may have been the noise men created, as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; it is in the later, Babylonian texts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the Wikipedia article about [Enlil](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlil):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Enlil plays a vital role in the Sumerian creation myth; he separates&#xD;&#xA;&gt; An (heaven) from Ki (earth), thus making the world habitable for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; humans. In the Sumerian Flood myth, Enlil rewards Ziusudra with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; immortality for having survived the flood and, **in the Babylonian flood&#xD;&#xA;&gt; myth, Enlil is the cause of the flood himself, having sent the flood&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to exterminate the human race,** who made too much noise and prevented&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him from sleeping.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the same Wikipedia article, under the [Flood Myth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlil#Flood_myth) section: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **In the Sumerian version of the flood story, the causes of the flood are unclear because the portion of the tablet recording the beginning&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the story has been destroyed.** Somehow, a mortal known as Ziusudra&#xD;&#xA;&gt; manages to survive the flood, likely through the help of the god Enki.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The tablet begins in the middle of the description of the flood. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; flood lasts for seven days and seven nights before it subsides. Then,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Utu, the god of the Sun, emerges. Ziusudra opens a window in the side&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the boat and falls down prostrate before the god. Next, he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sacrifices an ox and a sheep in honor of Utu. At this point, the text&#xD;&#xA;&gt; breaks off again. When it picks back up, Enlil and An are in the midst&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of declaring Ziusudra immortal as an honor for having managed to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; survive the flood. The remaining portion of the tablet after this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; point is destroyed.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **In the later Akkadian version of the flood story, recorded in the Epic of Gilgamesh, Enlil actually causes the flood, seeking to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; annihilate every living thing on earth because the humans, who are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; vastly overpopulated, make too much noise and prevent him from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sleeping.** In this version of the story, the hero is Utnapishtim, who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is warned ahead of time by Ea, the Babylonian equivalent of Enki, that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the flood is coming. The flood lasts for seven days; when it ends,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ishtar, who had mourned the destruction of humanity, promises&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Utnapishtim that Enlil will never cause a flood again. When Enlil sees&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that Utnapishtim and his family have survived, he is outraged, but his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; son Ninurta speaks up in favor of humanity, arguing that, instead of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; causing floods, Enlil should simply ensure that humans never become&#xD;&#xA;&gt; overpopulated by reducing their numbers using wild animals and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; famines. Enlil goes into the boat; Utnapishtim and his wife bow before&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him. Enlil, now appeased, grants Utnapishtim immortality as a reward&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for his loyalty to the gods." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16413" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4900" RevisionGUID="13b3606f-6145-4598-8f51-096e1d0dda5a" CreationDate="2018-05-14T18:18:12.990" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 167 characters in body" Text="My understanding is that archangel Lucifer was cast out of Heaven was because he refused to accept the humans and that was a sin in God's eyes. This tells us that angels can be bad.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From what I'm told, humans can commit no sin that God will not eventually forgive. He sees all sins equally. When a human doesn't seek forgiveness, that human's soul goes to Hell. In Hell, the soul is tortured, tormented and corrupted. It eventually becomes a demon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So a demon is eventually a human soul and thus, God can still forgive the human if it takes a path of redemption.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But the question is, *would* God forgive a demon and allow it entrance into Heaven?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16414" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4916" RevisionGUID="7697f81e-5583-428e-97e8-64ff07a9802f" CreationDate="2018-05-14T18:25:19.547" UserId="2892" Comment="added 22 characters in body; edited title" Text="This version of the great flood myth, I have found, is unique because it does not appear as if the gods started it or caused it. Just that they knew of it and didn't warn or try to save the humans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...we learn that the gods have decided not to save mankind from an impending flood.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What started the flood if the gods were not the reason?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16415" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4916" RevisionGUID="7697f81e-5583-428e-97e8-64ff07a9802f" CreationDate="2018-05-14T18:25:19.547" UserId="2892" Comment="added 22 characters in body; edited title" Text="What started the flood in Sumerian Mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16416" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4915" RevisionGUID="81e3b809-3253-461d-adac-0f92f46d3cf8" CreationDate="2018-05-14T18:29:32.790" UserId="2892" Comment="added 223 characters in body" Text="The concept of ghosts ([shades][1] in the sense of spirits or phantoms) predates the understanding and harnessing of electricity by humans. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But, in modern folklore and mythology electric lights often flicker when a ghost is in the room.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is this? What are the scientific or spiritual explanations?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dskia%2F" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16417" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4919" RevisionGUID="c27c0d94-4976-4e89-9069-16e438fa31c2" CreationDate="2018-05-14T18:46:33.537" UserId="2892" Text="It relates to [Spiritualism][1] and modern extensions.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Essentially, spiritualism uses &quot;[magic tricks][2]&quot; (illusions) to create the impression of paranormal activity, often as simple as thumping a table or flickering candles.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These techniques have been extended to electrical interference per a recent trend called [EVP][3] (electronic voice phenomenon).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As Rodia mentions, the 1982 film [Poltergiest][3] is the source of many modern tropes regarding spirits.  More than anything this may be understood as a function of the influence of Stephen Spielberg as a myth-maker. (See: [Close Encounters of the Third Kind][4].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The modern mythologies of both the paranormal and [UFOs][5] is a kind of feedback loop between [pseudoscience][6] and artists. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Specifically, artists like Spielberg create stories and images based on real-world anecdotal (unverifiable) accounts.  When these stories and images become cultural references points, they in turn produce anecdotal accounts that reinforce the stories and images.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It may be helpful to think of these ideas as [memes][7], which jump from human mind to human mind. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The less an individual knows about [real science][8] and [scientific method][9], the more likely they are to believe these accounts, or interpret subjective experiences as proof of what cannot be verified. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Ghosts are involved with electricity because out modern experience involves electricity&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are likely more specific pseudo-scientific explanations.  This article &quot;[How Ghosts Work: Ghosts and Electrical Fields][10]&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In some haunted locations, researchers have claimed to have measured magnetic fields that are stronger than normal or which exhibit unusual fluctuations. These may be localized phenomena that stem from electronic equipment or geological formations, or they may be part of the Earth's magnetic field.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Some paranormal investigators think of this as proof of a supernatural presence -- the ghosts create the field. Others suggest that these fields can interact with the human brain, causing hallucinations, dizziness or other neurological symptoms. Some researchers have theorized that this is one of the reasons people report more ghostly activity at night. Because of the way the solar wind interacts with the Earth's magnetosphere, the planet's magnetic field stretches out on the side that's in darkness. Some researchers hypothesize that this expanded field interacts more strongly with people's brains.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritualism&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_(illusion)#Magic_tricks&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_voice_phenomenon&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_Encounters_of_the_Third_Kind&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidentified_flying_object&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/afterlife/ghost3.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16418" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4919" RevisionGUID="a1e712a0-df91-4d69-ad21-69f05f13a0a6" CreationDate="2018-05-14T18:54:14.033" UserId="2892" Comment="added 3 characters in body" Text="It relates to [Spiritualism][1] and modern extensions.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Essentially, spiritualism uses &quot;[magic tricks][2]&quot; (illusions) to create the impression of paranormal activity, often as simple as thumping a table or flickering candles.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These techniques have been extended to electrical interference per a recent trend called [EVP][3] (electronic voice phenomenon).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As Rodia mentions, the 1982 film [Poltergiest][3] is the source of many modern tropes regarding spirits.  More than anything this may be understood as a function of the influence of Stephen Spielberg as a myth-maker. (See: [Close Encounters of the Third Kind][4].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The modern mythologies of both the paranormal and [UFOs][5] is a kind of feedback loop between [pseudoscience][6] and artists. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Specifically, artists like Spielberg create stories and images based on real-world anecdotal (unverifiable) accounts.  When these stories and images become cultural references points, they in turn produce anecdotal accounts that reinforce the stories and images.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It may be helpful to think of these ideas as [memes][7], which jump from human mind to human mind. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The less an individual knows about [real science][8] and [scientific method][9], the more likely they are to believe these accounts, or interpret subjective experiences as proof of what cannot be verified. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Ghosts are involved with electricity because out modern experience involves electricity*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are likely more specific pseudo-scientific explanations.  This article &quot;[How Ghosts Work: Ghosts and Electrical Fields][10]&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In some haunted locations, researchers have claimed to have measured magnetic fields that are stronger than normal or which exhibit unusual fluctuations. These may be localized phenomena that stem from electronic equipment or geological formations, or they may be part of the Earth's magnetic field.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Some paranormal investigators think of this as proof of a supernatural presence -- the ghosts create the field. Others suggest that these fields can interact with the human brain, causing hallucinations, dizziness or other neurological symptoms. Some researchers have theorized that this is one of the reasons people report more ghostly activity at night. Because of the way the solar wind interacts with the Earth's magnetosphere, the planet's magnetic field stretches out on the side that's in darkness. Some researchers hypothesize that this expanded field interacts more strongly with people's brains.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritualism&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_(illusion)#Magic_tricks&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_voice_phenomenon&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_Encounters_of_the_Third_Kind&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidentified_flying_object&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/afterlife/ghost3.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16419" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4920" RevisionGUID="e84fdfeb-87a8-439d-b6de-8975f2b8cc53" CreationDate="2018-05-14T19:53:48.413" UserId="5013" Text="A very interesting question. This is my stab at it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The text itself does not answer this question. The “*Encyclopädie des Märchens*” states on pg. 1250 in a section on promising/selling the child to the devil that “*only seldom are the motivations of the demon, what he wants aims to do with the promised child, for wanting the child, further explained. The Devil naturally has a human soul in mind in the Christian sense… other supernatural beings are in search of a partner (man or woman) for their own children….not seldom are the handed over children employed in service of the demon.” The EM goes on to say that the origin of this lies in human sacrifice as shown in the Bible and mythology*.&quot; My guess, and it is only a guess, is that Rumple S. wants the child as a servant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In KHM #39 II “*Regarding The Wichtelmännern*” (AKA “The Elves” in Hunt’s 1884 translation), they get a young girl so that she can take a child out of the baptismal. The implication is that it is their child that she takes out of the baptismal.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16420" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1219" RevisionGUID="ca2741d3-0c79-4b27-a75f-636722917b00" CreationDate="2018-05-14T22:17:36.530" UserId="2807" Comment="Shortened title, replaced &quot;here&quot; for &quot;TV Tropes&quot; in link" Text="**Are there any other mythological beings that got a replacement metal arm, other than Nuada, Lugh Llaw Ereint, and Sigurd?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found these three from the Mythology section in [TV Tropes](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArtificialLimbs)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - The Battle of Magh Tuireadh relates how Nuada, king of the Tuatha Dé Danann, lost an arm in combat and received a functional replacement crafted of silver.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - The same tale is ascribed to Lugh Llaw Ereint in the Welsh mythological cycle Y Mabinogion and may spring from the same Ur-Root. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - There is a variation of a Norse myth involving Sigurd and his battle with the dragon Fafnir. During the fight his hand is bitten off, but he afterwards receives a fully articulate metal replacement with intricate wiring in place of tendons.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16421" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1219" RevisionGUID="ca2741d3-0c79-4b27-a75f-636722917b00" CreationDate="2018-05-14T22:17:36.530" UserId="2807" Comment="Shortened title, replaced &quot;here&quot; for &quot;TV Tropes&quot; in link" Text="Mythological beings that got a replacement metal arm, other than Nuada, Lugh Llaw Ereint, and Sigurd?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16422" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1219" RevisionGUID="ca2741d3-0c79-4b27-a75f-636722917b00" CreationDate="2018-05-14T22:17:36.530" Comment="Proposed by 2807 approved by -1 edit id of 1647" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16423" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1219" RevisionGUID="e1db0f2b-9308-4e6c-afbb-888f3fd4cb0e" CreationDate="2018-05-14T22:17:36.530" UserId="1241" Comment="Shortened title, replaced &quot;here&quot; for &quot;TV Tropes&quot; in link" Text="**Are there any other mythological beings that got a replacement metal arm, other than Nuada, Lugh Llaw Ereint, and Sigurd?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found these three from the Mythology section in [TV Tropes](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArtificialLimbs):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - The Battle of Magh Tuireadh relates how Nuada, king of the Tuatha Dé Danann, lost an arm in combat and received a functional replacement crafted of silver.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - The same tale is ascribed to Lugh Llaw Ereint in the Welsh mythological cycle Y Mabinogion and may spring from the same Ur-Root. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - There is a variation of a Norse myth involving Sigurd and his battle with the dragon Fafnir. During the fight his hand is bitten off, but he afterwards receives a fully articulate metal replacement with intricate wiring in place of tendons.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16424" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1219" RevisionGUID="e1db0f2b-9308-4e6c-afbb-888f3fd4cb0e" CreationDate="2018-05-14T22:17:36.530" UserId="1241" Comment="Shortened title, replaced &quot;here&quot; for &quot;TV Tropes&quot; in link" Text="Are there any other mythological beings that got a replacement metal arm, other than Nuada, Lugh Llaw Ereint, and Sigurd?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16427" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4921" RevisionGUID="2b899c44-ab53-4046-b688-d1cf050c4f88" CreationDate="2018-05-15T07:37:17.360" UserId="3987" Text="The helhest, in Danish folklore, is essentially the ghost of a horse sacrifice that was made when a new cemetery was consecrated. It was considered bad luck to be the first one to be buried in a cemetery. The horse would be buried with one of its legs cut off to prevent it from escaping. In Sweden a related creature is called the kyrkogrim." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16428" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4922" RevisionGUID="9f20a308-fdf6-42e3-bc14-525ebe523e7c" CreationDate="2018-05-15T12:43:53.467" UserId="2807" Text="First page result of googling ['Thassos and sirens'](https://www.google.com/search?q=Thassos+and+sirens) brings two touristic websites that seem rather dubious.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first one mixes sirens with mermaids:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to an ancient myth, Thassos was the island of the Sirens,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the devilish women **with a fish tail**. It is said that they had such a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beautiful voice that every men who heard them sing, fell under their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; spell. The sirens would afterwards devour the enchanted one. In the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; famous Wanderings of Ulysses (Odysseus in Greek), the sirens who tried&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to enchant him are supposed to be living in Thassos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;[Source: www.greeka.com](https://www.greeka.com/eastern_aegean/thassos/thassos-history.htm) (emphasis mine)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second one just says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There are also some researchers that link Thassos with the Sirens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;[Source: www.thassos-view.com](https://www.thassos-view.com/thassos/history)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But I have not found any classical source for Thasos/Thassos as the island of the sirens. They all consistently mention Anthemusa or, in later Latin sources, [Sirenum scopuli](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirenum_scopuli).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the Sirens entry in [*A Dictionary of Greek and Roman biography and mythology*](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0104:entry=sirenes-bio-1&amp;highlight=anthemusa):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Their place of abode is likewise different in the different&#xD;&#xA;&gt; traditions, for some place them on cape Pelorum others in the island&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Anthemusa, and others again in the Sirenusian islands near Paestum,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; or in Capreae.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is traditionally assumed that when the Argonauts and later Odysseus meet the sirens in their voyages, both crews are sailing near Italy (Magna Grecia).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It would have been comical for a sailing people like the ancient Greeks to admire these heroes getting lost that relatively close to their homes, if indeed they thought Thasos was the island of the sirens.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16429" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4922" RevisionGUID="e5a96b20-a4b4-4011-bb66-b9006127bc05" CreationDate="2018-05-15T12:50:13.053" UserId="2807" Comment="added 59 characters in body" Text="As you say, first page result of googling ['Thassos and sirens'](https://www.google.com/search?q=Thassos+and+sirens) brings two touristic websites, but they seem rather dubious.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first one mixes sirens with mermaids:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to an ancient myth, Thassos was the island of the Sirens,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the devilish women **with a fish tail**. It is said that they had such a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beautiful voice that every men who heard them sing, fell under their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; spell. The sirens would afterwards devour the enchanted one. In the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; famous Wanderings of Ulysses (Odysseus in Greek), the sirens who tried&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to enchant him are supposed to be living in Thassos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;[Source: www.greeka.com](https://www.greeka.com/eastern_aegean/thassos/thassos-history.htm) (emphasis mine)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second one just says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There are also some researchers that link Thassos with the Sirens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;[Source: www.thassos-view.com](https://www.thassos-view.com/thassos/history)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But I have not found any classical source for Thasos/Thassos as the island of the sirens. They all consistently mention Anthemusa or, in later Latin sources, [Sirenum scopuli](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirenum_scopuli).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the Sirens entry in [*A Dictionary of Greek and Roman biography and mythology*](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0104:entry=sirenes-bio-1&amp;highlight=anthemusa):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Their place of abode is likewise different in the different&#xD;&#xA;&gt; traditions, for some place them on cape Pelorum others in the island&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Anthemusa, and others again in the Sirenusian islands near Paestum,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; or in Capreae.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All these islands are near Italy, because it is traditionally assumed that when the Argonauts and later Odysseus meet the sirens in their voyages, both crews are sailing near Italy (Magna Grecia).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It would have been comical for a sailing people like the ancient Greeks to admire these heroes getting lost that relatively close to their homes, if indeed they thought Thasos was the island of the sirens.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16430" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4922" RevisionGUID="ec1477cf-8383-47d3-9213-988be421dc76" CreationDate="2018-05-15T16:19:28.547" UserId="2807" Comment="added 3 characters in body" Text="As you say, first page result of googling ['Thassos and sirens'](https://www.google.com/search?q=Thassos+and+sirens) brings two touristic websites, but they seem rather dubious.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first one mixes sirens with mermaids:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to an ancient myth, Thassos was the island of the Sirens,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the devilish women **with a fish tail**. It is said that they had such a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beautiful voice that every men who heard them sing, fell under their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; spell. The sirens would afterwards devour the enchanted one. In the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; famous Wanderings of Ulysses (Odysseus in Greek), the sirens who tried&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to enchant him are supposed to be living in Thassos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;[Source: www.greeka.com](https://www.greeka.com/eastern_aegean/thassos/thassos-history.htm) (emphasis mine)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second one just says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There are also some researchers that link Thassos with the Sirens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;[Source: www.thassos-view.com](https://www.thassos-view.com/thassos/history)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But I have not found any classical source for Thasos/Thassos as the island of the sirens. They all consistently mention Anthemusa or, in later Latin sources, the [Sirenum scopuli](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirenum_scopuli).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the Sirens entry in [*A Dictionary of Greek and Roman biography and mythology*](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0104:entry=sirenes-bio-1&amp;highlight=anthemusa):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Their place of abode is likewise different in the different&#xD;&#xA;&gt; traditions, for some place them on cape Pelorum others in the island&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Anthemusa, and others again in the Sirenusian islands near Paestum,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; or in Capreae.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All these islands are near Italy, because it is traditionally assumed that when the Argonauts and later Odysseus meet the sirens in their voyages, both crews were sailing around Italy (Magna Grecia).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I doubt very much that a sailing people like the ancient Greeks would admire these heroes that got lost that relatively close to their homes, if indeed they thought Thasos was the island of the sirens.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16431" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="3096" RevisionGUID="d7605e12-9c18-4ddf-81f7-c5fd3005397f" CreationDate="2018-05-15T16:28:44.183" UserId="57" Comment="68" />
  <row Id="16432" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4923" RevisionGUID="361ee911-6705-409f-910b-5f1b4ac0f6bb" CreationDate="2018-05-15T18:44:02.947" UserId="5013" Text="If Grimms Märchen (AKA Fairy Tales) count, KHM 1812/57 #31 “*The Maiden Without Hands*” can be looked at. In this text, in later versions (1819 and after) the girl asks her father to chop off her hands so that the devil can not take her. He does this and she cries so much on the stumps that she became “pure” and the devil could not get her. She leaves her father and marries a king. He has silver hands made for her. In the first edition of the KHM, her hands grow back when she wraps her arm stumps around a tree three times at the bidding of an old man. Her silver hands are replaced with real ones through God’s Grace of her piety. Of course a lot more happens. Different versions of the text describe it differently." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16433" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="3297" RevisionGUID="cd73422f-f52e-496f-aeb7-c85eca81c911" CreationDate="2018-05-15T18:52:39.603" UserId="57" Comment="69" />
  <row Id="16434" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4919" RevisionGUID="fcfa3de7-9351-4ad7-833e-527bbb730f68" CreationDate="2018-05-15T19:17:57.717" UserId="2892" Comment="added 1907 characters in body" Text="It relates to [Spiritualism][1] and modern extensions.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Essentially, spiritualism uses &quot;[magic tricks][2]&quot; (illusions) to create the impression of paranormal activity, often as simple as thumping a table or flickering candles.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These techniques have been extended to electrical interference per a recent trend called [EVP][3] (electronic voice phenomenon).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As Rodia mentions, the 1982 film [Poltergiest][3] is the source of many modern tropes regarding spirits.  More than anything this may be understood as a function of the influence of Stephen Spielberg as a myth-maker. (See: [Close Encounters of the Third Kind][4].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The modern mythologies of both the paranormal and [UFOs][5] is a kind of feedback loop between [pseudoscience][6] and artists. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Specifically, artists like Spielberg create stories and images based on real-world anecdotal (unverifiable) accounts.  When these stories and images become cultural references points, they in turn produce anecdotal accounts that reinforce the stories and images.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It may be helpful to think of these ideas as [memes][7], which jump from human mind to human mind. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The less an individual knows about [real science][8] and [scientific method][9], the more likely they are to believe these accounts, or interpret subjective experiences as proof of what cannot be verified. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Ghosts are involved with electricity because our modern experience involves electricity&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In essence, folklore can evolve, and the belief in ghosts is strengthened if their presence can be show to have quantifiable effects, hence the recent relationship with electricity.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, never forget the profit motive--television shows featuring ghost hunters are perennially popular, and produce not insignificant revenues. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;There are a variety of specific pseudo-scientific, explanations.  This article &quot;[How Ghosts Work: Ghosts and Electrical Fields][10]&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In some haunted locations, researchers have claimed to have measured magnetic fields that are stronger than normal or which exhibit unusual fluctuations. These may be localized phenomena that stem from electronic equipment or geological formations, or they may be part of the Earth's magnetic field.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Some paranormal investigators think of this as proof of a supernatural presence -- the ghosts create the field. Others suggest that these fields can interact with the human brain, causing hallucinations, dizziness or other neurological symptoms. Some researchers have theorized that this is one of the reasons people report more ghostly activity at night. Because of the way the solar wind interacts with the Earth's magnetosphere, the planet's magnetic field stretches out on the side that's in darkness. Some researchers hypothesize that this expanded field interacts more strongly with people's brains.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another article provides more detail, but also highlights the distinction between science and pseudoscience:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As paranormal investigators, we know that ghosts can manipulate our electronics. We’ve seen it happen over and over again. Cell phone settings get inexplicably changed during an investigation and radios or television sets get turned on and off, just to list a few. But, what if ghosts can actually pull energy from these devices?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One of the most standard pieces of paranormal investigation equipment is the EMF meter. Simply stated, an EMF meter measures the changes of the electromagnetic field in a given area. There are various units, some more precise than others, but I prefer the Mel Meter, manufactured by D.A.S. Distribution Inc., because it is easy to use and also measures the ambient room temperature. If you hold one near a source of electricity, the reading on the meter will often increase. Electrical appliances such as alarm clocks, ceiling fans, and microwave ovens will cause an EMF meter’s readings to spike upwards. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The paranormal investigators &quot;know that ghosts can manipulate our electronics&quot;, but, to this day, there's never been proof that passes muster in regard to scientific method.  (The counter to this fact is generally a conspiracy by scientists to suppress the truth, which itself comprises a contemporary mythology of it's own.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The upside is that horror movies will continue to stay &quot;fresh&quot; so long as human technology continues to advance.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritualism&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_(illusion)#Magic_tricks&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_voice_phenomenon&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_Encounters_of_the_Third_Kind&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidentified_flying_object&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/afterlife/ghost3.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16435" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4924" RevisionGUID="9174ed69-c3d4-48d6-b263-be79c8b6c48b" CreationDate="2018-05-15T19:50:12.610" UserId="5013" Text="Much of this will depend on the language you are looking at. German has &quot;die Erde&quot; (the earth, feminine), &quot;die Sonne&quot; (the sun, feminine), &quot;der Mond&quot; (the moon, masculine), etc. Where the German article “der, die, das” (masculine, feminine, neuter) indicates that the word is masculine or feminine or neuter, in English they are all just “the.” I'm guessing that is why we speak of the &quot;man in/on the moon&quot; and not the &quot;woman in/on the moon.” The gender in the language then leads to &quot;Mother Earth” and The Man in the Moon.” The earth and sun are spoken of in the feminine, whereas the moon is spoken/written about in the masculine. The Italian (a later Sanskrit-related language as described below), “Luna” (moon), is a girl’s name in the Harry Potter books. I believe that in French and Spanish, “earth” is also feminine.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is an interesting web page that also discusses the question: http://www.lionpath.net/zwoelf.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(12) Why the Sun is Feminine and the Moon Masculine &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;”*In many religions there are male sun gods, but they actually appeared quite late on the scene, when male priesthoods became dominant over the older priestesshoods of the Sun Goddess. They tried to downgrade the power of the feminine by assigning it to the Moon of lesser light, claiming the power and brightness of the Sun for themselves. That is why later Sanskrit-related languages (e.g. Latin, Greek, French, Italian and Portuguese), assign a masculine gender to the Sun and a feminine to the Moon. Whereas in older languages of the same Indo-European family (e.g. Sanskrit, German and old Goidelic) the Moon is masculine and the Sun feminine. Similarly, in the very ancient, pre-Babylonian Sumerian tongue, the word for moon is explicitly masculine, as it is in Arabic, in which the word for &quot;sun&quot; is feminine.*”&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16436" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4925" RevisionGUID="df328a2a-11a7-4aef-93de-f9b6873fd028" CreationDate="2018-05-15T21:45:47.463" UserId="4667" Text="Inspired by [this question on history.stackexchange](https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/2027/where-does-the-name-of-the-country-belarus-come-from) about the etymology of &quot;Belarus&quot; = &quot;White Russia&quot;...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[@SigueSigueBen writes in a comment](https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/2027/where-does-the-name-of-the-country-belarus-come-from#comment4455_2029):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There is a tradition of giving naming compass directions after colours in Turkic cultures. The best example is from the perspective of Anatolia, you have the Black Sea to the north, the Red Sea to the south, the White (Mediterranean) Sea to the west (the east is blue, by the way).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And the Wikipedia page for [White Croatia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croatia) writes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The epithet &quot;white&quot; is related to the use of colors for cardinal directions among Eurasian people. It meant &quot;Western Croats/Croatia&quot;, in comparison to lands where they lived before.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(The &quot;lands where they lived before&quot; would be [Red Croatia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Croatia), by the way.) That claim is simply [a gloss by Wikipedia user Crovata](https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=White_Croatia&amp;type=revision&amp;diff=698187536&amp;oldid=677179656) of the equally unsourced claim [previously added by an IP user](https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=White_Croatia&amp;type=revision&amp;diff=600920376&amp;oldid=598839817):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [...] 'white' (cardinal direction north) would be somewhere at the upper Vistula/Slovakian Paradise, while 'black' Croatians would have lived in Lesser Carpathia [...]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What's missing in all this Internet game of telephone is some actual reference to original sources or peer-reviewed publications.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Is there any culture (Turkic or otherwise) in which cardinal directions are customarily associated with specific colors? Prove it.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;UPDATE: Wikipedia's page on &quot;Cardinal direction&quot; has [a whole section](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinal_direction#Cultural_variations) devoted to color associations in Turkic, Asiatic, and Native American cultures! But its sourcing still leaves a lot to be desired; most of the links are dead and/or point to personal webpages which themselves don't say where they got their information." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16437" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4925" RevisionGUID="df328a2a-11a7-4aef-93de-f9b6873fd028" CreationDate="2018-05-15T21:45:47.463" UserId="4667" Text="Cultural association between directions and colors" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16438" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4925" RevisionGUID="df328a2a-11a7-4aef-93de-f9b6873fd028" CreationDate="2018-05-15T21:45:47.463" UserId="4667" Text="|etymology|astrology|european-folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16445" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4926" RevisionGUID="a1bd9415-9dfe-4bf1-bc6c-d1509438584f" CreationDate="2018-05-16T12:22:40.080" UserId="4142" Text="In recent time the association seems to have been generally dismissed but not so long ago it was credible. Roland B. Dixon, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.jstor.org/stable/533763?seq=3#page_scan_tab_contents&quot;&gt;The Color-Symbolism of the Cardinal Points&lt;/a&gt;, J. of American Folklore, V. 12, No. 44 (Jan. - Mar., 1899), pp. 10-16 is perhaps an outdated example.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;CL Riley  in *Color-direction symbolism: An example of Mexican-Southwestern contacts*,  America Indigena, 1963 wrote:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One of the most striking things about the color-direction symbolism&#xD;&#xA;&gt; through out the entire Meso American SW area is the remarkab lack of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; uniformity from one culture to the other. Even within the same group&#xD;&#xA;&gt; two informants may give different color-direction association.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(quoted by John Gage , *Color and Meaning: Art, Science, and Symbolism*,&#xD;&#xA; New 2000 Ed p.59 /see google books/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16446" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4927" RevisionGUID="c374fe57-dbaf-4c9e-a89c-82bce8dc6153" CreationDate="2018-05-16T13:00:57.817" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16447" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4927" RevisionGUID="c374fe57-dbaf-4c9e-a89c-82bce8dc6153" CreationDate="2018-05-16T13:00:57.817" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16448" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4928" RevisionGUID="aef83542-7434-4e45-a3e4-8ddf9a9188c8" CreationDate="2018-05-16T13:00:57.817" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16449" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4928" RevisionGUID="aef83542-7434-4e45-a3e4-8ddf9a9188c8" CreationDate="2018-05-16T13:00:57.817" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16450" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4926" RevisionGUID="7e9725ab-b20b-49c1-b6ab-d2a005a55378" CreationDate="2018-05-16T14:41:37.990" UserId="4142" Comment="form" Text="In recent time the association seems to have been generally dismissed but not so long ago it was credible. Roland B. Dixon, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.jstor.org/stable/533763?seq=3#page_scan_tab_contents&quot;&gt;The Color-Symbolism of the Cardinal Points&lt;/a&gt;, J. of American Folklore, V. 12, No. 44 (Jan. - Mar., 1899), pp. 10-16 is perhaps an outdated example.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;CL Riley  in *Color-direction symbolism: An example of Mexican-Southwestern contacts*,  America Indigena, 1963 wrote:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One of the most striking things about the color-direction symbolism&#xD;&#xA;&gt; through out the entire Meso American SW area is the remarkab lack of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; uniformity from one culture to the other. Even within the same group&#xD;&#xA;&gt; two informants may give different color-direction association.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(quoted by John Gage , *Color and Meaning: Art, Science, and Symbolism*,&#xD;&#xA; New 2000 ed., p.110 /see &lt;a href=&quot;https://books.google.us/books/about/Color_and_Meaning.html?id=EU74cB7kMMsC&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;source=kp_read_button&amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;q=north&amp;f=false&quot;&gt;google books&lt;/a&gt;/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16451" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4929" RevisionGUID="ea5a7b79-3893-417f-8b02-bb0e66a0679f" CreationDate="2018-05-16T19:35:11.137" UserId="5013" Text="Here is the original Goethe text: http://www.deutschestextarchiv.de/book/view/goethe_werther02_1774?p=24&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would translate it as: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“*One tells of a type of noble horses, that, when they are terribly heated and roused, they themselves out of instinct bite open an artery, for to help themselves to breath.*”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or in an easier to read colloquial English:&#xD;&#xA;“*One tells of a type of noble horses, that, when they are terribly heated and roused, they bite themselves open an artery out of instinct, [so as to] make their breathing easier*.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is my stab at the question.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;A search on Google.de for “*Pferd Ader selber öffnen*” brings up many German references. In the book: “*Allgemeines Lexicon der Künste und Wissenschaften etc. Neue verb. Aufl, Volume 1, Hartung, 1748*” on pg. 19 it is described that “*humans learned this cure from animals, in that the Hungarian horses themselves through a bite open an artery, and the American animal came upon a sharp reed and cared to wound itself, that blood wherewith they felt themselves overburdened, to let off.*”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Link to the book above ][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://books.google.com/books/content?id=BuNMAAAAcAAJ&amp;pg=PA19&amp;img=1&amp;zoom=3&amp;hl=en&amp;sig=ACfU3U3mDXRXE5JrrZ36ZdNQSFCU-dNvGw&amp;ci=488%2C176%2C416%2C151&amp;edge=0&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The folklore possibly comes from these Hungarian horses. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many other references to the old practice of blood letting in horses by people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=BuNMAAAAcAAJ&amp;pg=PA19&amp;lpg=PA19&amp;dq=pferd%20ader%20selber%20offnen&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=RJasUKMKTh&amp;sig=7G1Q1ckk8hb5XHuD1GLI6iKXHIo&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjujq62_YrbAhUIna0KHV8YAIQQ6AEILjAB#v=onepage&amp;q=pferd%20ader%20selber%20offnen&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16452" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4926" RevisionGUID="84d0039b-cb87-4f34-a29f-9b7acdb4eade" CreationDate="2018-05-16T21:48:40.503" UserId="4142" Comment="fixed and more" Text="In recent time the association seems to have been generally dismissed but not so long ago it was credible. Roland B. Dixon, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.jstor.org/stable/533763?seq=3#page_scan_tab_contents&quot;&gt;The Color-Symbolism of the Cardinal Points&lt;/a&gt;, J. of American Folklore, V. 12, No. 44 (Jan. - Mar., 1899), pp. 10-16 is perhaps an outdated example.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The 7-regioned cosmos of the Pueblo peoples (yellow-corn of the North,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; blue of the West, red of the South, white of the East, speckled of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Above, black of the Below and varicolored, ripened corn of the Here&#xD;&#xA;&gt; such even today is the key symbolism of the whole Pueblo culture)..&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a more recent statement in A.H. Burr, *The World's Rim: Great Mysteries of the North American Indians*, NY:Dover books, 1953 (reed. 1999 p.85 /see gogle books/)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However C.L. Riley  in *Color-direction symbolism: An example of Mexican-Southwestern contacts*,  America Indigena, 1963 wrote:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One of the most striking things about the color-direction symbolism&#xD;&#xA;&gt; through out the entire Meso American SW area is the remarkable lack of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; uniformity from one culture to the other. Even within the same group&#xD;&#xA;&gt; two informants may give different color-direction association.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(quoted by John Gage , *Color and Meaning: Art, Science, and Symbolism*,&#xD;&#xA; New 2000 ed., p.110 /see &lt;a href=&quot;https://books.google.us/books/about/Color_and_Meaning.html?id=EU74cB7kMMsC&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;source=kp_read_button&amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;q=north&amp;f=false&quot;&gt;google books&lt;/a&gt;/ )" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16453" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4929" RevisionGUID="10fd53c3-d1c6-47f3-8b9f-6da79a64d172" CreationDate="2018-05-17T01:11:47.570" UserId="4667" Comment="improved formatting, transcribed quotation from OP's image" Text="Here is the original Goethe text: http://www.deutschestextarchiv.de/book/view/goethe_werther02_1774?p=24&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Man erzaͤhlt von einer edlen Art Pferde, die, wenn ſie ſchroͤklich erhizt und aufgejagt ſind, ſich ſelbſt aus Jnſtinkt eine Ader aufbeiſſen, um ſich zum Athem zu helfen.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would translate it as: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“*One tells of a type of noble horses, that, when they are terribly heated and roused, they themselves out of instinct bite open an artery, for to help themselves to breath.*”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or in an easier to read colloquial English:&#xD;&#xA;“*One tells of a type of noble horses, that, when they are terribly heated and roused, they bite themselves open an artery out of instinct, [so as to] make their breathing easier*.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is my stab at the question.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;A search on Google.de for “*Pferd Ader selber öffnen*” brings up many German references. In the book [“*Allgemeines Lexicon der Künste und Wissenschaften etc. Neue verb. Aufl, Volume 1, Hartung, 1748*” on pg. 19](https://books.google.com/books?id=BuNMAAAAcAAJ&amp;pg=PA19) it is described that “*humans learned this cure from animals, in that the Hungarian horses themselves through a bite open an artery, and the American animal came upon a sharp reed and cared to wound itself, that blood wherewith they felt themselves overburdened, to let off.*”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![text](https://books.google.com/books/content?id=BuNMAAAAcAAJ&amp;pg=PA19&amp;img=1&amp;zoom=3&amp;hl=en&amp;sig=ACfU3U3mDXRXE5JrrZ36ZdNQSFCU-dNvGw&amp;ci=488%2C176%2C416%2C151&amp;edge=0)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Aderläße, Aderlassen,** *Venae sectio,* eröffnung einer blutader, mit einer flieten oder lancetten, das verderbte oder überflüßige geblüt abzuzapffen, und den adern lufft zu machen. Diese cur haben die menschen von den thieren gelernet, indem die Ungarischen pferde ihnen durch einen biß eine ader selbst zu öffnen, und das Americanische thier dante an einem scharffen schilff-rohr sich wund zu stossen Pflegt, das blut womit sie sich überladen fühlen, abzuzapffen. Die alten haben die aderlässe sparsam gebraucht.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The folklore possibly comes from these Hungarian horses. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many other references to the old practice of blood-letting in horses by people." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16454" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4929" RevisionGUID="10fd53c3-d1c6-47f3-8b9f-6da79a64d172" CreationDate="2018-05-17T01:11:47.570" Comment="Proposed by 4667 approved by 5013 edit id of 1650" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16457" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4929" RevisionGUID="fcaad2b1-0a6b-4066-a48f-47993fe69a91" CreationDate="2018-05-17T01:15:29.140" UserId="5013" Comment="links added" Text="Here is the original Goethe text: http://www.deutschestextarchiv.de/book/view/goethe_werther02_1774?p=24&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Man erzaͤhlt von einer edlen Art Pferde, die, wenn ſie ſchroͤklich erhizt und aufgejagt ſind, ſich ſelbſt aus Jnſtinkt eine Ader aufbeiſſen, um ſich zum Athem zu helfen.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would translate it as: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“*One tells of a type of noble horses, that, when they are terribly heated and roused, they themselves out of instinct bite open an artery, for to help themselves to breath.*”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or in an easier to read colloquial English:&#xD;&#xA;“*One tells of a type of noble horses, that, when they are terribly heated and roused, they bite themselves open an artery out of instinct, [so as to] make their breathing easier*.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is my stab at the question.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;A search on Google.de for “*Pferd Ader selber öffnen*” brings up many German references. In the book [“*Allgemeines Lexicon der Künste und Wissenschaften etc. Neue verb. Aufl, Volume 1, Hartung, 1748*” on pg. 19](https://books.google.com/books?id=BuNMAAAAcAAJ&amp;pg=PA19) it is described that “*humans learned this cure from animals, in that the Hungarian horses themselves through a bite open an artery, and the American animal came upon a sharp reed and cared to wound itself, that blood wherewith they felt themselves overburdened, to let off.*”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![text](https://books.google.com/books/content?id=BuNMAAAAcAAJ&amp;pg=PA19&amp;img=1&amp;zoom=3&amp;hl=en&amp;sig=ACfU3U3mDXRXE5JrrZ36ZdNQSFCU-dNvGw&amp;ci=488%2C176%2C416%2C151&amp;edge=0)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Aderläße, Aderlassen,** *Venae sectio,* eröffnung einer blutader, mit einer flieten oder lancetten, das verderbte oder überflüßige geblüt abzuzapffen, und den adern lufft zu machen. Diese cur haben die menschen von den thieren gelernet, indem die Ungarischen pferde ihnen durch einen biß eine ader selbst zu öffnen, und das Americanische thier dante an einem scharffen schilff-rohr sich wund zu stossen Pflegt, das blut womit sie sich überladen fühlen, abzuzapffen. Die alten haben die aderlässe sparsam gebraucht.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The folklore possibly comes from these Hungarian horses. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many other references to the old practice of blood-letting in horses by people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[J. Clark's” Abhandlung von Verhütung der Pferdekrankheiten, 1790, pg. 141][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Oeconomus prudens et legalis, oder allg. kluger und rechts ..., Volumes 1-2, pg. 1098.][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Handbuch der thierärztlichen Operationslehre, Eduard Hering, 1866, pg. 42.][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=vXBiAAAAcAAJ&amp;pg=PA143&amp;lpg=PA143&amp;dq=Pferd%20Ader%20selber%20%C3%B6ffnen&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=RaCWtznHhI&amp;sig=WXAV2TqKViDsUa9hGF2YCeeWs8I&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwj4kbOxw4vbAhXlhFQKHa9iB88Q6AEINTAF#v=onepage&amp;q=Pferd%20Ader%20selber%25&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.com/books?id=6C1XAAAAcAAJ&amp;pg=PA1098&amp;lpg=PA1098&amp;dq=Pferd%20Ader%20selber%20%C3%B6ffnen&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=vsDenMRN0I&amp;sig=jwhmCCo6bYwj7cviv8lfKs-jB-c&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwj4kbOxw4vbAhXlhFQKHa9iB88Q6AEIVjAI#v=onepage&amp;q=Pferd%20Ader%20selbe&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://books.google.com/books?id=wRlCAAAAcAAJ&amp;pg=PA42&amp;lpg=PA42&amp;dq=Pferd%20Ader%20selber%20%C3%B6ffnen&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=WsDEcss48H&amp;sig=HVipA0Ok5_dC9MLiXrMeCm7V1Dw&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwil76DIxYvbAhVrslQKHYYPBls4ChDoAQhOMAY#v=onepage&amp;q=Pferd%20Ader%20selber&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16459" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4930" RevisionGUID="f6c48c0f-ef6c-46fd-ac69-1fe86bb0f943" CreationDate="2018-05-17T02:25:42.670" UserId="5022" Text="I am reminded of the *NTR*, the *Neteru*, or *Netyeru*, the great beings, however they were called, that the most ancient of Egyptians are believed to have worshipped most fervently, who reputedly could resurrect themselves time and again and never die, once with the appearance of a man or woman, then a falcon, an ibis, or a jackal, and so forth, and who were also able to arise in the world by _force majeure_ without the requirement of sexual activity to cause conception. In other *words* a baby could *conceivably* be born to a woman who may not have had sex at all...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, Osiris' goal is to have a *spiritual* successor to oppose evil, and even many successors, though he doesn't necessarily need a _penis_ to achieve that goal, especially as he has his faithful wife, Isis, who is faithful in more ways than one, because not only is her husband an immortal in the faith through wisdom, but so is Isis herself, through her close association with Djehouti, or Thoth, who has instructed her in the art of uttering words of efficacy. The words of a hymn declare that she was&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *...strong of tongue, and uttered the words of power which she knew how to pronounce, and she halted not in her speech, and was perfect in giving the command and uttering the word*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and she took the form of a bird and hovered above the dead body of her husband Osiris, fanning him with air by beating her wings, and emanating light from the sheen of her feathers, and uttering words of power unceasingly, and at length she roused the dead to life. The embrace that followed resulted in Horus being born, so perhaps in the process of being resurrected Osiris was made whole again. Personally, I'd like to think so!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I used as a source E. A. Wallis Budge's *Egyptian Magic*" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16460" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4914" RevisionGUID="e96fe00c-d141-409c-a25a-495c241380bd" CreationDate="2018-05-17T09:18:42.780" UserId="4271" Comment="added 68 characters in body" Text="For questions relating to mythical symbols or depictions in artwork." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16461" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4914" RevisionGUID="e96fe00c-d141-409c-a25a-495c241380bd" CreationDate="2018-05-17T09:18:42.780" Comment="Proposed by 4271 approved by 2892, 2774 edit id of 1645" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16462" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4927" RevisionGUID="ec230e35-8201-43cc-a09d-6c02483f4062" CreationDate="2018-05-17T11:26:32.703" UserId="2807" Comment="added 287 characters in body" Text="For questions about **Talos**, a giant automaton made of bronze who patrolled around the island of Crete three times a day and was slain by the Argonauts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Links:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talos)&#xD;&#xA;- [Theoi.com](http://www.theoi.com/Gigante/GiganteTalos.html)&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16463" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4927" RevisionGUID="ec230e35-8201-43cc-a09d-6c02483f4062" CreationDate="2018-05-17T11:26:32.703" Comment="Proposed by 2807 approved by 2774, 1241 edit id of 1648" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16464" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4931" RevisionGUID="c90bdcba-7692-41f4-a133-77c0af7045a2" CreationDate="2018-05-17T13:17:00.540" UserId="4271" Text="On the [Oni][1] Wikipedia, scrolled down to Demon Gate, it says that in Chinese Taoism and traditional Japanese esoteric cosmology (Onmyōdō), the direction northeast (though the wiki uses *northeasterly*) is an unlucky direction. On the animal zodiac wheel, the rat being [north][2] (or [near north][3]), northeast, or *kimon*, as it is called other-where, is the ox tiger direction. Kimon is considered an unlucky direction because it is believed that evil spirits pass through that direction.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Temples are often built facing kimon. Why build a building facing an unlucky direction?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oni&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://d.facdn.net/art/darkuangel/1305035076/1305035076.darkuangel_chinese_zodiac_chibi_wheel_by_darkuangel.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://usercontent2.hubstatic.com/6742131.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16465" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4931" RevisionGUID="c90bdcba-7692-41f4-a133-77c0af7045a2" CreationDate="2018-05-17T13:17:00.540" UserId="4271" Text="If the ox tiger is an unlucky direction, why build an entrance to it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16466" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4931" RevisionGUID="c90bdcba-7692-41f4-a133-77c0af7045a2" CreationDate="2018-05-17T13:17:00.540" UserId="4271" Text="|mythical-creatures|japanese|shinto|superstition|zodiac|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16467" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4906" RevisionGUID="47cdf258-aef4-4c4a-84b2-1fa53c7dbb45" CreationDate="2018-05-17T14:21:33.383" UserId="4271" Comment="Edited format to made easier to read" Text="There are plenty of stories out there of Greek gods being fought and defeated!&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Greek mythology, gods were often fought by both other gods and mortals. The mortal Arachne soundly defeated Athena&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the demigod Heracles killed a number of Poseidon’s sons&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hades kidnapped the god Persephone to become his wife&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;the great mortal hero Diomedes injured Aphrodite and Aeneas in battle, etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Jewish theology, Yahweh is supposed to be perfect and undefeatable. Despite this, there are definitely ways you can beat the Jewish God. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; When Satan made a bet with Yahweh that Job would turn away from Him, it was completely possible that Job could have failed the test after having his family and slaves murdered. Free will is supposed to be a very important thing to Yahweh, and as such, Job indubitably could have turned away from God.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Why would Satan make a bet with God if he knew that God knew the answer? The bet would have never been made if Job’s fate was already sealed… Satan is described as being too clever to do something so stupid. Job could’ve cursed God, and Satan would have won the fight.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Moses also defeated Yahweh in an intellectual battle. Exodus 32 describes how God wanted to kill all of the Israelites after Aaron made them dance naked around the golden calf. Moses instead reasoned with God and told him to “turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.” God, seeing the wisdom of Moses, changed His mind, thus admitting that Moses’s idea is better than His own. Moses defeated God in a battle of ideas. “…And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.” Nice job, Moses!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://www.quora.com/Can-you-fight-God-and-win-Is-it-possible&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16468" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4928" RevisionGUID="5774070a-e6b5-4389-8c6d-8dd874952c3b" CreationDate="2018-05-17T14:22:35.440" UserId="2807" Comment="added 150 characters in body" Text="For questions about Talos, a giant automaton made of bronze who patrolled around the island of Crete three times a day and was slain by the Argonauts." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16469" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4928" RevisionGUID="5774070a-e6b5-4389-8c6d-8dd874952c3b" CreationDate="2018-05-17T14:22:35.440" Comment="Proposed by 2807 approved by 2774, 4271 edit id of 1649" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16470" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4932" RevisionGUID="1ba92b10-d1ab-4464-9bad-8a00cdd0e106" CreationDate="2018-05-17T16:25:51.610" UserId="399" Text="According to the author Tad Tuleja, in the book &quot;The Good People: New Fairylore Essays&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; citations in American archives mention elements of the custom dating from early in this century, the [..] genealogy, her development from folk belief to national custom and her contemporary social function all remais obscure&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In an analysis of the myth genealogy, the author supplements:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Relying on Katharine Brigg's standard work, Rosemary Wells concludes that the dental sprite is America's only fairy - a creature &quot;never referred to in European literature&quot;, and equally absent from Old World folklore&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the mentioned research of Rosemary Well, the estimated date of 1900 is likely the first appearance of mentions to the Tooth Fairy.&#xD;&#xA;Also, quotations about the Tooth Fairy don't occur in researches on the bases of European mythological beings, discarding the possibility of this being its origin (and, therefore, first citation).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there are European quotations that resemble the fairy tale. The author Peter Narváez exemplifies the similarities between some European tales, and how they can be related, giving a clearer origin to the Tooth Fairy.&#xD;&#xA;~ I used the same chapter structure as him, because I found the separation interesting.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **The Tooth Coin as &quot;Fairy Gold&quot;:** &quot;among the commonly cited attributes of fairies are their affluence and accompanying generosity; the pot at the end of the leprechaun's rainbow and the fairies's double payment of a debt to humans suggest a broad tradition of philantropic pixies. With this tradition in mind, Jacqueline Simpson once suggested that the Tooth Fairy exchange may derive from an Old British custom of rewarding industrious servent girls with &quot;fairy&quot; coins, left surreptitiously in their shoes as they slept&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **The Tooth as a Propitiation or Self-Defense:** &quot;There are structural links between Tooth Fairy customs and folk pratices designed to foil such kidnappers. Since teeth have long simbolized imperishability, they function worldwide as talismans against evil. The tooth of a child, set near it as i sleeps, mitht be viwed, therefore, both as a form of preventive magic and more complexly, as a surrogate sacrifece - a pars pro toto offering for spirits who seek to snatch the child itself&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **The Italian &quot;Tooth Fairy&quot; - Marantega:** &quot;The Venetian version of Befana (the Old One, la Vecchia, gaunt and toothless, a witch), called Marntega, displays generosity not only at Christmas season, but also when children lose teeth. A shed tooth is placed under the child's bed or under its pillow, and in the night Marantega exchanges it for a coin&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **French Connection:** &quot;there are accounts of at least two Gallic tooth rituals that are roughly contemparary. In the first, from 1887, the child puts the tooth beneath its pillow and the Virgin Mary exchanges it for money or a toy. The second, from 1902, cites a 'good fairy' as the benevolent dental agent and the reward is candy, not money&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;Chronology favors these French connections, although the genealogy is hazy. In contemporary French tooth exchanges, ir is a mouse, not a fairy, who takes the tooth; in a recent dictionary of French superstitions, the fairy agent is banished to uncivilized 'Anglo-Saxon' countries.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **The Tooth Fairy and the &quot;Tooth Mouse&quot;:** shed teeth are offered to animals throughout Europe, with the commonest recipients being crows, other birds, and rodents. In the most widespread version of hole, behind furniture, or near the hearth or oven - and with a doggerel formula, asks the mouse to exchange it for a better one.&#xD;&#xA;Disciples of Max Müller int the 1920s saw this ritual as a survival of ancient offerings to fire gods. Imaginatively linking the mouse to the sun, they attempted to explain at one stroke the three commonest methods of tooth disposal: whether the child hurled the tooth into the air, threw it into the fire, or offered it to a mouse, the common element was sun worship. In more recent, psychoanalytical interpretations, the mouse becomes a phallic symbol and the surrender ritual an act of compensation, both mirroring and dramatically resolvind the Oedipal fantasy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;Despite the similarities between the tales, as shown by the cited author, I believe that the safest is to say something between 1900.&#xD;&#xA;In this book, The Good People: New Fairylore Essays (1991), there are more texts that deal with this theme and other fantastic tales. I recommend reading.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;**Referências**: &#xD;&#xA;Editor NARVÁEZ, Péter. The Good People: New Fairylore Essays, Kentucky: The University Press Of Kentucky, 1991. 531 p.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;ROGOW, Lee. The Tooth Fairy, Colliers, 1949." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16472" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4919" RevisionGUID="f824d21b-59ae-4990-85ce-6cbb9f6b41a0" CreationDate="2018-05-17T20:05:43.483" UserId="2892" Comment="added 69 characters in body" Text="It relates to [Spiritualism][1] and modern extensions.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Essentially, spiritualism uses &quot;[magic tricks][2]&quot; (illusions) to create the impression of paranormal activity, often as simple as thumping a table or flickering candles.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These techniques have been extended to electrical interference per a recent trend called [EVP][3] (electronic voice phenomenon).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As Rodia mentions, the 1982 film [Poltergiest][3] is the source of many modern tropes regarding spirits.  More than anything this may be understood as a function of the influence of Stephen Spielberg as a myth-maker. (See: [Close Encounters of the Third Kind][4].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The modern mythologies of both the paranormal and [UFOs][5] is a kind of feedback loop between [pseudoscience][6] and artists. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Specifically, artists like Spielberg create stories and images based on real-world anecdotal (unverifiable) accounts.  When these stories and images become cultural references points, they in turn produce anecdotal accounts that reinforce the stories and images.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It may be helpful to think of these ideas as [memes][7], which jump from human mind to human mind. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The less an individual knows about [real science][8] and [scientific method][9], the more likely they are to believe these accounts, or interpret subjective experiences as proof of what cannot be verified. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Ghosts are involved with electricity because our modern experience involves electricity&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In essence, folklore can evolve, and the belief in ghosts is strengthened if their presence can be show to have quantifiable effects, hence the recent relationship with electricity.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, never forget the profit motive--television shows featuring ghost hunters are perennially popular, and produce not insignificant revenues. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;There are a variety of specific pseudo-scientific, explanations.  This article &quot;[How Ghosts Work: Ghosts and Electrical Fields][10]&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In some haunted locations, researchers have claimed to have measured magnetic fields that are stronger than normal or which exhibit unusual fluctuations. These may be localized phenomena that stem from electronic equipment or geological formations, or they may be part of the Earth's magnetic field.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Some paranormal investigators think of this as proof of a supernatural presence -- the ghosts create the field. Others suggest that these fields can interact with the human brain, causing hallucinations, dizziness or other neurological symptoms. Some researchers have theorized that this is one of the reasons people report more ghostly activity at night. Because of the way the solar wind interacts with the Earth's magnetosphere, the planet's magnetic field stretches out on the side that's in darkness. Some researchers hypothesize that this expanded field interacts more strongly with people's brains.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another article provides more detail, but also highlights the distinction between science and pseudoscience:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As paranormal investigators, we know that ghosts can manipulate our electronics. We’ve seen it happen over and over again. Cell phone settings get inexplicably changed during an investigation and radios or television sets get turned on and off, just to list a few. But, what if ghosts can actually pull energy from these devices?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One of the most standard pieces of paranormal investigation equipment is the [EMF meter][11]. Simply stated, an EMF meter measures the changes of the electromagnetic field in a given area. There are various units, some more precise than others, but I prefer the Mel Meter, manufactured by D.A.S. Distribution Inc., because it is easy to use and also measures the ambient room temperature. If you hold one near a source of electricity, the reading on the meter will often increase. Electrical appliances such as alarm clocks, ceiling fans, and microwave ovens will cause an EMF meter’s readings to spike upwards. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The paranormal investigators &quot;know that ghosts can manipulate our electronics&quot;, but, to this day, there's never been proof that passes muster in regard to scientific method.  (The counter to this fact is generally a conspiracy by scientists to suppress the truth, which itself comprises a contemporary mythology of it's own.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The upside is that horror movies will continue to stay &quot;fresh&quot; so long as human technology continues to advance.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritualism&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_(illusion)#Magic_tricks&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_voice_phenomenon&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_Encounters_of_the_Third_Kind&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidentified_flying_object&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/afterlife/ghost3.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://www.amazon.com/emf-meters/b?node=5011676011" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16473" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4919" RevisionGUID="e8e1335f-108a-404e-928f-0b1f86018f0c" CreationDate="2018-05-17T20:24:08.740" UserId="2892" Comment="added 69 characters in body" Text="It relates to [Spiritualism][1] and modern extensions.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Essentially, spiritualism uses &quot;[magic tricks][2]&quot; (illusions) to create the impression of paranormal activity, often as simple as thumping a table or flickering candles.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These techniques have been extended to electrical interference per a recent trend called [EVP][3] (electronic voice phenomenon).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As Rodia mentions, the 1982 film [Poltergiest][3] is the source of many modern tropes regarding spirits.  More than anything this may be understood as a function of the influence of Stephen Spielberg as a myth-maker. (See: [Close Encounters of the Third Kind][4].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The modern mythologies of both the paranormal and [UFOs][5] is a kind of feedback loop between [pseudoscience][6] and artists. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Specifically, artists like Spielberg create stories and images based on real-world anecdotal (unverifiable) accounts.  When these stories and images become cultural references points, they in turn produce anecdotal accounts that reinforce the stories and images.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It may be helpful to think of these ideas as [memes][7], which jump from human mind to human mind. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The less an individual knows about [real science][8] and [scientific method][9], the more likely they are to believe these accounts, or interpret subjective experiences as proof of what cannot be verified. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Ghosts are involved with electricity because our modern experience involves electricity&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In essence, folklore can evolve, and the belief in ghosts is strengthened if their presence can be show to have quantifiable effects, hence the recent relationship with electricity.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, never forget the profit motive--television shows featuring ghost hunters are perennially popular, and produce not insignificant revenues.  (One can find [a variety of EMF for sale on Amazon][10];)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;There are a variety of specific pseudo-scientific, explanations.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This Quora question [&quot;Can ghosts affect electric lights?&quot;][11] is demonstrative, in the sense that the question itself asserts that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Most spirits vibrate at a higher frequency than humans, so in order to communicate, they need to slow down their vibrations.  This can take some practice. In addition, spirits are forms comprised of electromagnetic energy.  This is also the same type of energy field in our light, TV, and radio waves.  As a result, when spirits are around, their energy fields disrupt those fields of light, TV, and radio and can create disturbances. These disturbances may manifest in flickering of lights, sound not working on the TV, and radio stations loosing their frequencies.   All of these are little ways to let us know the spirits are around us.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This article &quot;[How Ghosts Work: Ghosts and Electrical Fields][12]&quot; provides the context:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In some haunted locations, researchers have claimed to have measured magnetic fields that are stronger than normal or which exhibit unusual fluctuations. These may be localized phenomena that stem from electronic equipment or geological formations, or they may be part of the Earth's magnetic field.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Some paranormal investigators think of this as proof of a supernatural presence -- the ghosts create the field. Others suggest that these fields can interact with the human brain, causing hallucinations, dizziness or other neurological symptoms. Some researchers have theorized that this is one of the reasons people report more ghostly activity at night. Because of the way the solar wind interacts with the Earth's magnetosphere, the planet's magnetic field stretches out on the side that's in darkness. Some researchers hypothesize that this expanded field interacts more strongly with people's brains.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another blog &quot;[Ghosts and Electricity][13]&quot; provides more detail, but also highlights the distinction between science and pseudoscience:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As paranormal investigators, we know that ghosts can manipulate our electronics. We’ve seen it happen over and over again. Cell phone settings get inexplicably changed during an investigation and radios or television sets get turned on and off, just to list a few. But, what if ghosts can actually pull energy from these devices?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One of the most standard pieces of paranormal investigation equipment is the [EMF meter][10]. Simply stated, an EMF meter measures the changes of the electromagnetic field in a given area. There are various units, some more precise than others, but I prefer the Mel Meter, manufactured by D.A.S. Distribution Inc., because it is easy to use and also measures the ambient room temperature. If you hold one near a source of electricity, the reading on the meter will often increase. Electrical appliances such as alarm clocks, ceiling fans, and microwave ovens will cause an EMF meter’s readings to spike upwards. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The paranormal investigators &quot;know that ghosts can manipulate our electronics&quot;, but, to this day, there's never been proof that passes muster in regard to scientific method.  (The counter to this fact is generally a conspiracy by scientists to suppress the truth, which itself comprises a contemporary mythology of it's own.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The upside is that horror movies will continue to stay &quot;fresh&quot; so long as human technology continues to advance.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And for we mythographers, it's quite exciting to be able to witness folklore in formation, because such studies may provide insights into the formation of folklore of the past.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Other modern &quot;mythologies in formation&quot; are the mythology of Artificial Intelligence, the mythology of the multiverse, the mythology UFO's and extra-terrestrials, and modern conspiracy theories, including the conspiracy of the Illuminati.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritualism&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_(illusion)#Magic_tricks&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_voice_phenomenon&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_Encounters_of_the_Third_Kind&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidentified_flying_object&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMF_measurement&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://www.quora.com/Can-ghosts-affect-electric-lights&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/afterlife/ghost3.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://jonimayhan.com/2013/12/17/ghosts-and-electricity/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16474" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4933" RevisionGUID="af144810-1867-4d3b-938f-0f4309ac3bfe" CreationDate="2018-05-17T23:18:24.883" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16475" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4933" RevisionGUID="af144810-1867-4d3b-938f-0f4309ac3bfe" CreationDate="2018-05-17T23:18:24.883" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16476" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4934" RevisionGUID="32cdd9f2-db2e-4110-97f9-fa5cd3e3f4a8" CreationDate="2018-05-17T23:18:24.883" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16477" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4934" RevisionGUID="32cdd9f2-db2e-4110-97f9-fa5cd3e3f4a8" CreationDate="2018-05-17T23:18:24.883" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16479" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4933" RevisionGUID="b1bd953a-098e-4764-a107-8b43b0c59be8" CreationDate="2018-05-18T06:08:56.917" UserId="2807" Comment="added 261 characters in body" Text="For questions about **Hesiod**, ancient Greek poet around the 750-650 BC, author of the ***Theogony*** and ***Works and Days***.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Links:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesiod)&#xD;&#xA;- [Theoi.com](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HesiodMiscellany.html)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16480" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4933" RevisionGUID="b1bd953a-098e-4764-a107-8b43b0c59be8" CreationDate="2018-05-18T06:08:56.917" Comment="Proposed by 2807 approved by 1241, 2774 edit id of 1651" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16481" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3531" RevisionGUID="274caf10-ef75-4fac-850e-a9302a45694e" CreationDate="2018-05-18T07:30:46.657" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="16485" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4916" RevisionGUID="aeb60d7f-ebf6-4802-aef5-66d3bce532dc" CreationDate="2018-05-18T13:44:36.940" UserId="4271" Comment="added 99 characters in body" Text="This version of the great flood myth, I have found, is unique because it does not appear as if the gods started it or caused it. Just that they knew of it and didn't warn or try to save the humans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...we learn that the gods have decided not to save mankind from an impending flood.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Quoted from here.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What started the flood if the gods were not the reason?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_creation_myth#Summary" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16486" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3297" RevisionGUID="3b23e9fc-4b6a-476e-b208-88d691883c1c" CreationDate="2018-05-18T13:53:49.017" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|folklore|origins|animals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16487" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1807" RevisionGUID="726a5772-f501-46b6-8635-c5633383dcf8" CreationDate="2018-05-18T20:32:10.033" UserId="2682" Comment="added a detail &amp; corrected another detail" Text="***Bile, Not Blood***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Technically it was not the Hydra's blood that was venomous at all. The confusion regarding this seems to arise from the fact that it was Hydra-venom *in combination with someone else's* blood that eventually brought an end to Herakles the Hydra-slayer himself. There does not seem to be any ancient reference to Herakles using the Hydra's blood itself as poison, rather it was the monster's gall or bile which was venomous, and this is what he dipped his arrows in, and is what sealed his arrows as fatality weapons. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only reference which comes close to implying that it was the dragon's blood rather than its bile is a cursory expression used in the Roman Seneca's play *Hercules Furens* (&quot;Hercules' Madness&quot;). In it, Hercules describes the arrows as dipped in *Lernæa nece*, which Frank Justus Miller translates as &quot;Hydra's gore&quot; but literally comes closer to &quot;Lernaea's violent murder/slaying&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles [Hercules] destroyed a good number of his enemies (and a few friends too) by the use of his poisoned arrows. One of the last of these enemies was the Centaur Nessos [Nessus], who tried to violate Herakles' bride Deianeira. As he was dying, Nessos thought quite fast about how he could be avenged on his slayer even after he himself was long gone. He convinced Deianeira that his own Centaur blood (in one version this is mixed together with another bodily fluid) was a *philtron* [love-potion] which might come in handy someday if Herakles ever became unfaithful to her, and Deianeira collected what she could of it as an insurance policy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;True to form, years later, according to Sophocles' *Trakhiniai*,  Herakles decided to pursue an old flame of his. Deianeira then took the garment which Herakles planned to wear to his new wedding and dipped it in her stash of Nessos' blood. Nessos seems to have understood full well that the Hydra-gall would remain in his blood permanently (whether the blood was actually a philtron at all, which I suppose we'll never know). So now, years after the Centaur's death, as soon as Herakles put on the garment, the dragon's gall in Nessos' blood burned him so badly that he couldn't bear to live anymore. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for Herakles' encounter with the many-headed serpent, Hyginus does indeed paint our hero into a difficult scenario. It must have taken quite a bit of heavily exerted breathing to repeatedly chop off several heads from a giant monster while also having to fend off a giant crab. If even the creature's own footprints were poisonous [whether the dragon was present or not], without some decent self-insulation, it really should be virtually impossible to survive an actual showdown with such a beast. There are two possibilities I can think of for how Herakles could have slain a massive killer snake in such a toxic environment, let alone survived said environment.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Lion's Pelt**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To Kill the Hydra was `Mission 2.0` on Herakles' eventual list of 12 Tasks that he had to complete as a slave of his kinsman King Eurystheus of Argolis. `Mission 1.0` had been To Kill the Lion of Nemea, which lion, according to Apollodorus, was a brother of the Hydra. At any rate Herakles did complete his first mission and from then on he wore the skin of the Nemean Lion as armour practically everywhere he went. The lion pelt was impenetrable and impervious, and in ancient artwork the hero is usually depicted wearing the skin while battling the Hydra. There is no explicit written reference to the idea that the skin might have shielded Herakles in any way against the dragon of Lerna but there are some clues in his later adventures as to how this might have been so.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`Mission 12.0`, the last of the Eurysthean slave tasks, was To Capture Kerberos [Cerberus], the monstrous watchdog of the Underworld (and yet another brother of the Hydra). According to Apollodorus' *Bibliotheka*, one of the reasons that Herakles survived this one is because he covered his own skin completely in the Nemean Lion's pelt, although we have neither more detail about this nor any artwork graphic enough to display for us precisely what this might have looked like. Apollodorus simply tells us that by doing this, Herakles was able to withstand the bites of Kerberos' tail, which was composed of tens of snake- or dragon-heads, in a structure which reminds of the Hydra.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It should be reasonable to assume that a many-headed giant snake would try to bite its attacker, so for sure Herakles' recently acquired armour would've come in handy for protection against wounding during his 2nd Task. However, from what we can see of both Ancient and Modern Greek depictions of him clad in the pelt, there is no obvious means by which his respiratory system was also protected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Herakles in Lionskin][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Herakles &amp; Iolaos vs Hydra][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *scholion* on Iliad 23.841 says that when Aias [Ajax], the son of Herakles' nephew Telamon, was a baby, Herakles wrapped him up in the skin of the Nemean Lion so that Aias became invulnerable like his cousin Akhilleus [Achilles]. The idea here seems to be that an infant's coming into contact with the lion-skin caused the infant to become impervious, as opposed to an adult upon whom such &quot;magic&quot; clearly did not work the same way, since Herakles himself, who wore the pelt all the time, did not grow impervious skin from such extended periods of interaction therewith. Perhaps, though, there was some minor, less permanent effect on an adult whose head was helmeted inside the head of the flayed lion, in that it created a pocket of cushioned air. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In case that is not especially convincing (and I don't think that it is) a final insight on it is that both Seneca (again in *Hercules Furens*) and Hyginus, as well as Aelian, say that the Nemean Lion was the son of the moon-goddess. According to Hyginus, the Moon even suckled the lion. (The lion and Herakles had this in common: having drunk the milk of goddesses, since Herakles, when he was a baby, was once suckled by Hera, at least according to Pausanias.) Such contact with the gods often leaves mortals with the scent of ambrosia upon them, and ambrosia has curative and preservative properties. Hence its use by Aphrodite to embalm the corpse of the Trojan prince Hektor [Hector] while Akhilleus was angrily dragging it behind his chariot after slaying the prince. And Dionysos' granddaughter Hypsipyle inherited the wine-god's purple robe which, after two generations, still smelled of the ambrosial perfume which had been placed thereon long before she was born. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In short, it may be that the scent of the Nemean Lion protected Herakles, or something he drank when he was a baby augmented his respiratory immunity. Even if this is acceptable, there is, however, the problem of the fact that Herakles' charioteer nephew Iolaos was present at the battle against the Hydra. Iolaos was not wearing any magical prophylactic that we know about, nor had he benefited from any divine breastfeeding, but he evidently survived the encounter with the Hydra just fine.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Protected by Pallas**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With that being the case, we are essentially left with artwork to rely on as the main explanation source for the dilemma. Hyginus, Valerius Flaccus, Pausanias and Hesiod make brief mention of the idea that Herakles' half-sister the goddess Athena masterminded the strategic aspects of Herakles' 2nd Eurysthean task, and, according to Hyginus, it was this goddess who instructed the hero to gut the dragon's carcass in order to harvest her gall for arrow-poison.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ancient artists corroborate Athena's involvement here with their renditions of the story, in which it seems that Athena, the protector of heroes (especially if they're her own brothers like Perseus and Herakles), was standing behind Herakles throughout the Hydra battle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Herakles vs the Hydra][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;*She is the woman to the far left in the image above and in the one below.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Athena, Herakles, Karkinos, Hydra &amp; Iolaos][4]][4]    &#xD;&#xA;*Here she is even brandishing what looks like a spear with which she is either goading Herakles on or is ready to skewer the monster alive, before the hero even has a crack at it.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It may simply be that Pallas Athena, somehow, protected both Herakles and Iolaos from the Hydra's breath.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Euhemerisation Anecdote***  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;The generally accepted interpretation of the legend is that “the hydra&#xD;&#xA;&gt; denotes the damp, swampy ground of Lerna with its numerous springs&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (κεφαλαί, heads); its poison the miasmic vapours rising from the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stagnant water; its death at the hands of Heracles the introduction of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the culture and consequent purification of the soil” (Preller). A&#xD;&#xA;&gt; euhemeristic explanation is given by Palaephatus (39). An ancient king&#xD;&#xA;&gt; named Lernus occupied a small citadel named Hydra, which was defended&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by 50 bowmen. Heracles besieged the citadel and hurled firebrands at&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the garrison. As often as one of the defenders fell, two others at&#xD;&#xA;&gt; once stepped into his place. The citadel was finally taken with the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; assistance of the army of Iolaus and the garrison slain.&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;`HYDRA` *in Vol. 14 of The Encyclopaedia Britannica: A Dictionary of Arts, Sciences, Literature and General Information (11th Edition, 1910-1911)*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/hSXGF.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/rqK9N.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/nueIX.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/SL8Vc.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16495" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4935" RevisionGUID="ba378e91-594f-41b3-9009-d21f3a7f12f0" CreationDate="2018-05-19T08:37:45.153" UserId="5066" Text="Sisyphus is cursed with a compulsion to roll the rock up the mountain. He is incapable of resisting the allure of the job.&#xD;&#xA;And even if he could leave, where would he go? The Fields of Punishment extend for miles and miles, and have thousands of minions whose only purpose is to keep the criminals from escaping. Then there are the Furies, Cerberus, Thanatos...&#xD;&#xA;Suffice to say, escape is not possible mentally or physically for him." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16498" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4934" RevisionGUID="03676b29-ef97-43d3-bfa9-70c1e50ec1cb" CreationDate="2018-05-19T11:26:26.927" UserId="2807" Comment="added 112 characters in body" Text="For questions about Hesiod, ancient Greek poet around the 750-650 BC, author of the Theogony and Works and Days." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16499" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4934" RevisionGUID="03676b29-ef97-43d3-bfa9-70c1e50ec1cb" CreationDate="2018-05-19T11:26:26.927" Comment="Proposed by 2807 approved by 2774, 1241 edit id of 1652" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16501" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4657" RevisionGUID="f45e0129-6f44-43de-8a11-2c24814dd39c" CreationDate="2018-05-19T15:45:50.123" UserId="2807" Comment="Fixed small typos - including &quot;xocina&quot; for &quot;xoana&quot;, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xoanon" Text="Why would the goddess of love, beauty, and procreation be armed? (Note, all the links are the same source.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The cult of an armed Aphrodite was present in Laconia in early Archaic times. [(PG2)][1] The first images of Aphrodite were armed. [(PG3)][1] The first can be traced back to 380 B.C. But it is carried in a way that characterizes Aphrodite as a love goddess. [(PG7)][1] There are images of Aphrodite taking part in the Gigantomachy, but the source doesn't count this as prove that Aphrodite was a &quot;war goddess.&quot; There are seventeen copies of a statue with Aphrodite putting on a sword (&quot;This is clearly not a war goddess, but the love goddess donning the sword of Ares.&quot;). [(PG4)][1] The source says, &quot;If the sculptor got the idea of creating an 'armed Aphrodite' from the old *xoana*, he created exactly the same thing as the poets, changing a war goddess into the familiar love goddess and thereby reestablishing the normal gender roles of society.&quot; [(PG5)][1] The source believes that Aphrodite was armed because it was warranted, possibly as a city goddess and not as a war goddess. [(PG12)][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To sum up, she was not originally seen as a war goddess. It is believed that before the Greek Pantheon as we know it came to be, Athena, Artemis and Aphrodite were one goddess. But, because a whole lot of males didn't like a goddess being so active/involved, split them up. Then, when a few of the older images cropped up, poets and artists reinterpreted them. [(PG12-13)][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://digitalt.uib.no/bitstream/handle/1956.2/2995/The%20transformations%20of%20the%20armed%20Aphrodite_Flemberg.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16502" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4657" RevisionGUID="f45e0129-6f44-43de-8a11-2c24814dd39c" CreationDate="2018-05-19T15:45:50.123" Comment="Proposed by 2807 approved by 1241, 666 edit id of 1653" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16503" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4937" RevisionGUID="b07492e8-44c3-4dda-9c55-1e2669776e03" CreationDate="2018-05-19T19:50:21.793" UserId="5070" Text="Aphrodite is linked with Astarte, Near Eastern goddess of love and war. In Greece, her connection with war is through her affair with Ares. In one ancient sculpture, the Capuan Aphrodite, she may be holding Ares' shield, which in myth she took from him because she thought her reflection in it was so beautiful. She was also worshipped as Armed Aphrodite (Hoplitismenos) on AkroKorinth. A sculpture of her in Athens shows her with 1 bared breast, and a baldric and quiver for arrows. She would have held a bow in her left hand, now missing. Together, Aphrodite and Ares (Love and War), had a daughter, Harmonia (Harmony)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16504" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4938" RevisionGUID="4eafd306-9750-4081-bac4-611451b98c65" CreationDate="2018-05-20T00:19:32.620" UserId="2807" Text="I'd like to know of any myths surrounding Perseus' death (the same Perseus that killed Medusa), but [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseus) only mentions this line about it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to Hyginus, *Fabulae* 244, Megapenthes eventually killed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Perseus, to avenge the death of his father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have not found any open translation of Hyginus' *Fabulae* from Latin, and Theoi.com doesn't seem to mention the death of Perseus in [their article](http://www.theoi.com/Heros/Perseus.html).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[*A Dictionary of Greek and Roman biography and mythology*](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0104%3Aalphabetic+letter%3DP%3Aentry+group%3D15%3Aentry%3Dperseus-bio-1) says only this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Perseus slew Proetus, and was afterwards killed by Megapenthes, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; son of Proetus, who avenged the death of his father. (Hyg. Fab. 244.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Hyginus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaius_Julius_Hyginus) is a late source, is he really the only author acknowledging the death of Perseus?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And what does he say in the *Fabulae* about it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16505" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4938" RevisionGUID="4eafd306-9750-4081-bac4-611451b98c65" CreationDate="2018-05-20T00:19:32.620" UserId="2807" Text="How did Perseus die?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16506" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4938" RevisionGUID="4eafd306-9750-4081-bac4-611451b98c65" CreationDate="2018-05-20T00:19:32.620" UserId="2807" Text="|greek|perseus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16507" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4939" RevisionGUID="430a2c3b-8caf-4fa8-9e27-656f77eff57c" CreationDate="2018-05-20T00:20:12.947" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16508" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4939" RevisionGUID="430a2c3b-8caf-4fa8-9e27-656f77eff57c" CreationDate="2018-05-20T00:20:12.947" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16509" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4940" RevisionGUID="e068b1e3-0154-43f3-8a2d-e72656001404" CreationDate="2018-05-20T00:20:12.947" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16510" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4940" RevisionGUID="e068b1e3-0154-43f3-8a2d-e72656001404" CreationDate="2018-05-20T00:20:12.947" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16511" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4941" RevisionGUID="b6be92bd-bdbd-4756-b043-cbb3054baf04" CreationDate="2018-05-20T01:22:07.680" UserId="4962" Text="[The Classic Review, volume 60, issue 2][1] mentions three different opinions on how his life ends. &#xA;&#xA; 1. Megapenthes kills him,&#xA; 2. He accidentally kills himself with Medusa’s head, or &#xA; 3. He is taken up directly into the stars.&#xA;&#xA;[Page 32 ][2]of the book Perseus discusses these briefly as well.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/classical-review/article/div-classtitleogdendperseus-pp-xxiv-194-ills-london-and-new-york-routledge-2008-paper-1699-us2995-cased-60-us110-isbn-978-0-415-42725-8-978-0-415-42724-1-hbkdiv/2B2821B6225E981F35044A76A852A519&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&amp;lr=&amp;id=uRDFljXN0LkC&amp;oi=fnd&amp;pg=PP1&amp;dq=Perseus%20death%20Megapenthes&amp;ots=IMuXLujs-P&amp;sig=eQHi2MN0ZaIMysitv61DbYPqIgo#v=onepage&amp;q=%20Megapenthes&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16513" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4939" RevisionGUID="a0975784-bf5d-47a3-9124-d541d28e6606" CreationDate="2018-05-20T08:53:45.747" UserId="2807" Comment="added 291 characters in body" Text="For questions about or related to **Perseus**, the son of Zeus and the mortal Danaë, who beheaded the gorgon Medusa and rescued Andromeda from the sea monster Cetus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Links:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseus)&#xD;&#xA;- [Theoi.com](http://www.theoi.com/Heros/Perseus.html)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16514" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4939" RevisionGUID="a0975784-bf5d-47a3-9124-d541d28e6606" CreationDate="2018-05-20T08:53:45.747" Comment="Proposed by 2807 approved by 108 edit id of 1654" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16515" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4940" RevisionGUID="f61ceeac-457d-41f0-ab99-37d669f7242f" CreationDate="2018-05-20T08:53:51.520" UserId="2807" Comment="added 161 characters in body" Text="For questions about or related to Perseus, the son of Zeus and the mortal Danaë, who beheaded the gorgon Medusa and rescued Andromeda from the sea monster Cetus." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16516" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4940" RevisionGUID="f61ceeac-457d-41f0-ab99-37d669f7242f" CreationDate="2018-05-20T08:53:51.520" Comment="Proposed by 2807 approved by 108 edit id of 1655" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16521" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4942" RevisionGUID="5d4c1036-ed7f-420a-93ed-7efe293674e6" CreationDate="2018-05-21T04:23:41.297" UserId="5035" Text="You know how the Torah says that there were Vampires who were called blood sucking demons. Are Vampires mention in other religious books or texts?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16522" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4942" RevisionGUID="5d4c1036-ed7f-420a-93ed-7efe293674e6" CreationDate="2018-05-21T04:23:41.297" UserId="5035" Text="Vampires in Religious texts" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16523" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4942" RevisionGUID="5d4c1036-ed7f-420a-93ed-7efe293674e6" CreationDate="2018-05-21T04:23:41.297" UserId="5035" Text="|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16524" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4943" RevisionGUID="44ea605c-0816-4b69-8275-00b6869dc3b1" CreationDate="2018-05-21T05:23:19.157" UserId="4962" Text="The Greeks had a myth on vampires found in Delphi scriptures.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; [That evening he walked to the pond and found a swan which he then killed and offered to Artemis who then appeared to him. She had been pleased with his loyalty and service to her and decided to to make him one last deal. Ambrogio could touch Selene just once-to drink her blood. This act would kill Selene’s mortal body but would guarantee that they would stay together forever.][1]&#xA;&#xA;&gt; [The Delphi scriptures offer a solid validation of ancient beliefs and evidence.][1]&#xA;&#xA;The Babylonians had a vampire as well, which is adopted by Hebrew demonology.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; [Ancient Babylonia had tales of the mythical Lilitu, synonymous with and giving rise to Lilith (Hebrew לילית) and her daughters the Lilu from Hebrew demonology. Lilith was considered a demon and was often depicted as subsisting on the blood of babies. The legend of Lilith was originally included in some traditional Jewish texts: according to the medieval folk traditions, she was considered to be Adam's first wife before Eve.][2]&#xA;&#xA;&gt; [Scholars are not certain where the character of Lilith comes from, though many believe she was inspired by Sumerian myths about female vampires called “Lillu” or Mesopotamian myths about succubae (female night demons) called “lilin.” Lilith is mentioned four times in the Babylonian Talmud, but it is not until the Alphabet of Ben Sira (c. 800s to 900s) that the character of Lilith is associated with the first version of Creation.][3]&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://authorlyngibson.wordpress.com/2014/09/24/ambrogio-a-greek-vampire-origination-thery/&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampire_folklore_by_region&#xA;  [3]: https://www.thoughtco.com/legend-of-lilith-origins-2076660" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16525" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4944" RevisionGUID="79dbe3ce-a4e2-446d-8cac-7fa6553b0e9c" CreationDate="2018-05-21T06:53:59.900" UserId="2682" Text="The Theoi Project website has two Pages on Perseus. On the second Page, the last chapter (which is followed by some appendices) is entitled [&quot;The Death of Perseus&quot;](http://www.theoi.com/Heros/Perseus2.html#Death). It is very brief, listing the only two characters involved, aside from Perseus, and these are Proitos [Proetus] and Megapenthes, which listing is followed by this blurb:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The only reference to Perseus' death is a very obscure legend&#xD;&#xA;&gt; recounted by Hyginus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After that it quotes from the relevant portion of Mary Grant's 1960 English translation of *Fabulae* 244, which originally is entitled *Qui cognatos suos occiderunt*, &quot;Men Who Killed [Their] Relatives,&quot; and is basically a quick roll-call of fifteen culprits who fit this bill. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Right in the middle of the list: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Megapenthes Proeti filius Perseum Iovis et Danaes filium, propter&#xD;&#xA;&gt; patris mortem&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;which is translated by R. Scott Smith &amp; Stephen M. Trzaskoma as the name of the killer followed by that of his victim:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Megapenthes son of Proetus: Perseus, son of Jupiter and Danae, in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; revenge for his father's death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And that is all that Hyginus has to say on the matter, which brevity is probably what The Theoi Project means when it calls the story &quot;obscure&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the sentence immediately after what you have quoted from William Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology, it says that the scholion on Euripides' *Phoinissai* 1109 describes Proitos as having been expelled from Argolis (presumably by Perseus) and having ended up in Thebes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This appears to be a different version of Proitos' fate from the one in which his great-nephew Perseus kills him, which then would preclude his son from needing to avenge his death because Perseus isn't responsible for that in the scholion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But then the scholion doesn't offer thereafter an account of Perseus' death. Strangely enough, though, Hyginus, earlier in the *Fabulae*, has already enumerated Perseus in his list of sixteen &quot;Mortals Who Were Made Immortal&quot; as his Chapter 224 is entitled. The fourth profile on this list reads:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Perseus, the son of Jove and Danae, who was admitted into the stars.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This need not be a contradiction, however, as several others who were made into constellations, like Perseus was, were originally mortal characters who died first before being lifted into the skies (e.g. the giant Orion, the Hydra, and the sea-monster which Perseus killed in order to save Andromeda [the last of these becoming the constellation Cetus])." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16526" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4583" RevisionGUID="eea75aba-77b1-47c8-9fea-a5e95982344e" CreationDate="2018-05-21T14:02:36.457" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="16528" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4941" RevisionGUID="0838664e-11be-4060-a867-2f7029c0901d" CreationDate="2018-05-21T18:24:10.393" UserId="4962" Comment="added 86 characters in body" Text="[The Classic Review, volume 60, issue 2][1] mentions three different opinions on how his life ends. &#xA;&#xA; 1. Megapenthes kills him,&#xA; 2. He accidentally kills himself with Medusa’s head, or &#xA; 3. He is taken up directly into the stars.&#xA;&#xA;[![The Classic Review screenshot][2]][2]&#xA;&#xA;[Page 32 ][3]of the book Perseus discusses these briefly as well.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/classical-review/article/div-classtitleogdendperseus-pp-xxiv-194-ills-london-and-new-york-routledge-2008-paper-1699-us2995-cased-60-us110-isbn-978-0-415-42725-8-978-0-415-42724-1-hbkdiv/2B2821B6225E981F35044A76A852A519&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/SMwNY.jpg&#xA;  [3]: https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&amp;lr=&amp;id=uRDFljXN0LkC&amp;oi=fnd&amp;pg=PP1&amp;dq=Perseus%20death%20Megapenthes&amp;ots=IMuXLujs-P&amp;sig=eQHi2MN0ZaIMysitv61DbYPqIgo#v=onepage&amp;q=%20Megapenthes&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16529" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="3297" RevisionGUID="e9eed774-0620-4b86-8801-dd616f425a54" CreationDate="2018-05-21T19:17:37.513" UserId="57" Comment="69" />
  <row Id="16530" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4945" RevisionGUID="11baf1c3-97bb-4c8f-b42d-f5d4a831acd7" CreationDate="2018-05-22T01:35:18.663" UserDisplayName="user4660" Text="In the Indian [Vedas][1] there is handsome history about that. It is described in [Bhagavad-Gita][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Bhagavad-Gita is considered by eastern and western scholars alike to be among the greatest spiritual books the world has ever known. In a very clear and wonderful way the Supreme Lord Krishna describes the science of self-realization and the exact process by which a human being can establish their eternal relationship with God.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The action takes place on the battlefield where [Krishna][3] himself is part of that battle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedas&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://bhagavad-gita.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krishna" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16531" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4945" RevisionGUID="c07fda1b-e4f6-4c1b-a3c6-58565dea8802" CreationDate="2018-05-22T01:42:08.773" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="added 71 characters in body" Text="In the Indian [Vedas][1] there is handsome history about that. It is described in [Bhagavad-Gita][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Bhagavad-Gita is considered by eastern and western scholars alike to be among the greatest spiritual books the world has ever known. In a very clear and wonderful way the Supreme Lord Krishna describes the science of self-realization and the exact process by which a human being can establish their eternal relationship with God.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The action takes place on the battlefield where [Krishna][3] himself is part of that battle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Caution:** Don't be confused with **Bhagavad-gita As It Is**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedas&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://bhagavad-gita.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krishna" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16532" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4946" RevisionGUID="793a17be-cbdb-4e49-9790-2e0c64d72b12" CreationDate="2018-05-22T03:50:32.933" UserId="5035" Text="I read in a Solomon Grimoire that there was a species of Angels called Half Angels Half Demons. I haven't found any other information on them. Does anybody know?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16533" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4946" RevisionGUID="793a17be-cbdb-4e49-9790-2e0c64d72b12" CreationDate="2018-05-22T03:50:32.933" UserId="5035" Text="What is an Half Angel Half Demon?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16534" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4946" RevisionGUID="793a17be-cbdb-4e49-9790-2e0c64d72b12" CreationDate="2018-05-22T03:50:32.933" UserId="5035" Text="|angels|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16535" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4947" RevisionGUID="e73ed1a9-777d-43e1-88e8-f7755c23e6dd" CreationDate="2018-05-22T08:52:46.960" UserId="5073" Text="Does the idea of ice giants stem from glaciers? They are described as both evil and good and I thought that goes back to how glaciers can grow bigger and take your land, but also can become smaller and offer you land, because not only they give new space but the melted water also makes it so plants and so on can grow, like Ymir and his blood, kinda. But I'm not sure if that is an plausible theory, especially since I'm not familiar with the time frames of glacial periods. For this to work, I guess, the earliest Indogermanics would have had a lot of contacts with glaciers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why did the Indogermanics believe into Ragnarök? In Christian mythology the revelation is basically there to fear the people from going against the Christian way and otherwise ending up in hell. But in Indogermanic/Germanic mythology I thought the idea of ascending to Valhalla goes back to the Viking age, because the Vikings wanted something to rival the Christian heaven. Before that there was only Hel, so you getting to the death world after dying was considered as inevitable and you basically just prayed to not have bad luck while still living, for example by not being hunted by Wiedergänger, so what was the point of Ragnarök originally?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If something I wrote is wrong, please correct me.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16536" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4947" RevisionGUID="e73ed1a9-777d-43e1-88e8-f7755c23e6dd" CreationDate="2018-05-22T08:52:46.960" UserId="5073" Text="Regarding ice giants and Ragnarök" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16537" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4947" RevisionGUID="e73ed1a9-777d-43e1-88e8-f7755c23e6dd" CreationDate="2018-05-22T08:52:46.960" UserId="5073" Text="|ragnarok|giants|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16538" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4947" RevisionGUID="c65cfa55-396c-4826-b5ec-90259908dbc4" CreationDate="2018-05-22T09:06:01.327" UserId="5073" Comment="deleted 17 characters in body" Text="Does the idea of ice giants stem from glaciers? They are described as both evil and good and I thought that goes back to how glaciers can grow bigger and take your land, but also can become smaller and offer you land, because not only they give new space but the melted water also makes it so plants and so on can grow, like Ymir and his blood, kinda. But I'm not sure if that is an plausible theory, especially since I'm not familiar with the time frames of glacial periods. For this to work, I guess, the earliest Indogermanics would have had a lot of contacts with glaciers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why did the Germanics believe into Ragnarök? In Christian mythology the revelation is basically there to fear the people from going against the Christian way and otherwise ending up in hell. But in Germanic mythology I thought the idea of ascending to Valhalla goes back to the Viking age, because the Vikings wanted something to rival the Christian heaven. Before that there was only Hel, so you getting to the death world after dying was considered as inevitable and you basically just prayed to not have bad luck while still living, for example by not being hunted by Wiedergänger, so what was the point of Ragnarök originally?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If something I wrote is wrong, please correct me.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16539" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4948" RevisionGUID="e50c324e-60ed-4d11-8d2d-77cae122b308" CreationDate="2018-05-22T10:30:29.703" UserId="3987" Text="![The Ockelbo runestone](http://www.worldtreeproject.org/files/original/1c52723801bcb4f5dd091e432512f793.jpg)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Ockelbo runestone has a depiction of Yggdrasil that is to my knowledge the oldest in existence." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16540" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4948" RevisionGUID="7d5ee27d-6a12-4b2c-91f5-4594c1ddaa07" CreationDate="2018-05-22T19:25:12.087" UserId="2892" Comment="Had to edit for accuracy.  the stone pictured is a recreation." Text="The [Ockelbo runestone][1] has a depiction of Yggdrasil that is to my knowledge the oldest in existence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is [an image of the recreation][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.worldtreeproject.org/document/2361&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/Gs_19%2C_Ockelbo.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16541" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4947" RevisionGUID="cec83191-fc79-45a9-a6a8-b09124df5023" CreationDate="2018-05-22T22:26:19.100" UserId="5073" Comment="deleted 634 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Does the idea of ice giants stem from glaciers? They are described as both evil and good and I thought that goes back to how glaciers can grow bigger and take your land, but also can become smaller and offer you land, because not only they give new space but the melted water also makes it so plants and so on can grow, like Ymir and his blood, kinda. But I'm not sure if that is an plausible theory, especially since I'm not familiar with the time frames of glacial periods. For this to work, I guess, the earliest Indogermanics would have had a lot of contacts with glaciers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If something I wrote is wrong, please correct me.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16542" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4947" RevisionGUID="cec83191-fc79-45a9-a6a8-b09124df5023" CreationDate="2018-05-22T22:26:19.100" UserId="5073" Comment="deleted 634 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="The root of ice giants in Germanic mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16543" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="4947" RevisionGUID="cec83191-fc79-45a9-a6a8-b09124df5023" CreationDate="2018-05-22T22:26:19.100" UserId="5073" Comment="deleted 634 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|giants|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16544" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4949" RevisionGUID="3b2436c0-50d3-4475-bbf9-e0b44d468242" CreationDate="2018-05-22T22:28:19.597" UserId="5073" Text="Why did the Germanics believe into Ragnarök? In Christian mythology the revelation is basically there to fear the people from going against the Christian way and otherwise ending up in hell. But in Germanic mythology I thought the idea of ascending to Valhalla goes back to the Viking age, because the Vikings wanted something to rival the Christian heaven. Before that there was only Hel, so you getting to the death world after dying was considered as inevitable and you basically just prayed to not have bad luck while still living, for example by not being hunted by Wiedergänger, so what was the point of Ragnarök originally?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If something I wrote is wrong, please correct me.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16545" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4949" RevisionGUID="3b2436c0-50d3-4475-bbf9-e0b44d468242" CreationDate="2018-05-22T22:28:19.597" UserId="5073" Text="The meaning of Ragnarök for the Germanic peoples" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16546" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4949" RevisionGUID="3b2436c0-50d3-4475-bbf9-e0b44d468242" CreationDate="2018-05-22T22:28:19.597" UserId="5073" Text="|ragnarok|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16550" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="4949" RevisionGUID="3fdd34f5-345f-4983-b19d-0b8967202b53" CreationDate="2018-05-23T17:36:34.493" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|ragnarok|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16551" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4944" RevisionGUID="5e449ee9-af9b-4bf4-9647-d4017f58f93d" CreationDate="2018-05-23T22:36:46.313" UserId="2682" Comment="added a reference" Text="The Theoi Project website has two Pages on Perseus. On the second Page, the last chapter (which is followed by some appendices) is entitled [&quot;The Death of Perseus&quot;](http://www.theoi.com/Heros/Perseus2.html#Death). It is very brief, listing the only two characters involved, aside from Perseus, and these are Proitos [Proetus] and Megapenthes, which listing is followed by this blurb:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The only reference to Perseus' death is a very obscure legend&#xD;&#xA;&gt; recounted by Hyginus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After that it quotes from the relevant portion of Mary Grant's 1960 English translation of *Fabulae* 244, which originally is entitled *Qui cognatos suos occiderunt*, &quot;Men Who Killed [Their] Relatives,&quot; and is basically a quick roll-call of fifteen culprits who fit this bill. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Right in the middle of the list: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Megapenthes Proeti filius Perseum Iovis et Danaes filium, propter&#xD;&#xA;&gt; patris mortem&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;which is translated by R. Scott Smith &amp; Stephen M. Trzaskoma&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; as the name of the killer followed by that of his victim:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Megapenthes son of Proetus: Perseus, son of Jupiter and Danae, in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; revenge for his father's death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And that is all that Hyginus has to say on the matter, which brevity is probably what The Theoi Project means when it calls the story &quot;obscure&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the sentence immediately after what you have quoted from William Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology, it says that the scholion on Euripides' *Phoinissai* 1109 describes Proitos as having been expelled from Argolis (presumably by Perseus) and having ended up in Thebes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This appears to be a different version of Proitos' fate from the one in which his great-nephew Perseus kills him, which then would preclude his son from needing to avenge his death because Perseus isn't responsible for that in the scholion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But then the scholion doesn't offer thereafter an account of Perseus' death. Strangely enough, though, Hyginus, earlier in the *Fabulae*, has already enumerated Perseus in his list of sixteen &quot;Mortals Who Were Made Immortal&quot; as his Chapter 224 is entitled. The fourth profile on this list reads:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Perseus, the son of Jove and Danae, who was admitted into the stars.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This need not be a contradiction, however, as several others who were made into constellations, like Perseus was, were originally mortal characters who died first before being lifted into the skies (e.g. the giant Orion, the Hydra, and the sea-monster which Perseus killed in order to save Andromeda [the last of these becoming the constellation Cetus]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Smith, R.S., &amp; Trzaskoma, S.M. 2007. Apollodorus' *Library* and Hyginus' *Fabulae*: Two Handbooks of Greek Mythology,  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; Translated. Hackett Publishing Company, Inc., Indianapolis/Cambridge&lt;/sub&gt;  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16552" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="4947" RevisionGUID="54f34eec-5147-4ee9-84ca-80b3f19f21fd" CreationDate="2018-05-23T23:43:05.460" UserId="5073" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|giants|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16553" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4951" RevisionGUID="22e381ed-573d-4159-b27b-ba888f3e7f51" CreationDate="2018-05-24T04:40:32.960" UserDisplayName="user4660" Text="**[Nephilim][1]** - the offspring of the &quot;sons of God&quot; and the &quot;daughters of men&quot; before the Deluge, according to Genesis 6:1–4 of the Bible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Nephilim][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/4TgyG.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16557" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4952" RevisionGUID="7fdf8f11-9f08-4ee5-8efc-83b58994fd15" CreationDate="2018-05-25T15:09:23.827" UserId="292" Text="The poem *Hrafnagaldur Óðins* is a very late addition to the Norse canon, probably [written in the 1600s][1], which puts it a long time after paganism gave way to Christianity. This might explain the many oddities in its mythology. (For more on the poem and its context, you could [download this pdf][2] from the Viking Society.)  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;In the main body of lore (the *Prose* and *Poetic Eddas*) Tyr is said to be either the son of Odin or of a giant. The confusion about his origins may be because he seems to have been a [Danish god][3], so an Icelander like Snorri Sturlusion, who wrote the *Prose Edda*, might have had to invent an origin for a god he didn't know much about.  &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;(For more on Tyr as a Danish god you could look here:  &#xD;&#xA;Brink, Stefan 2007: “How Uniform was the Old Norse Religion?” in Learning and Understanding in the Old Norse World, eds. J. Quinn, K. Heslop, T. Wills, Brepols: 105-36. ([Brepols; paywall][4]))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrafnagaldr_%C3%93%C3%B0ins#Date&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.vsnrweb-publications.org.uk/Text%20Series/Hrafnagaldur%20Odins.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.natmus.dk/historical-knowledge/denmark/prehistoric-period-until-1050-ad/the-viking-age/the-magnate-dynasty-at-tissoe/sacrifices-to-the-norse-god-tyr/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.brepolsonline.net/doi/abs/10.1484/M.TCNE-EB.3.4070" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16559" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4954" RevisionGUID="0c117afe-a214-4551-bd6f-e96e6732c6ee" CreationDate="2018-05-26T06:56:01.007" UserId="5082" Text="What was the day-to-day spoken language during the times of Ramayana (reign of Lord Rama) and Mahabharata?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If I'm right both of these books were written in Sanskrit, and then were translated thousands of times in different languages but was Sanskrit the language the common folk used to converse in their day-to-day life? &#xD;&#xA;If common folk used some other easy language was that similar to the language used by elites of the society ex: people living or working in the palace of kingdoms of that time." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16560" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4954" RevisionGUID="0c117afe-a214-4551-bd6f-e96e6732c6ee" CreationDate="2018-05-26T06:56:01.007" UserId="5082" Text="Language spoken during times of Ramayana and Mahabharata" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16561" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4954" RevisionGUID="0c117afe-a214-4551-bd6f-e96e6732c6ee" CreationDate="2018-05-26T06:56:01.007" UserId="5082" Text="|hindu|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16562" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4955" RevisionGUID="d3d8699f-cba6-45d5-a1ff-588cd2feb9fb" CreationDate="2018-05-26T11:50:32.197" UserDisplayName="user4660" Text="**[Sanskrit][1]** -  is the primary liturgical language of Hinduism; a philosophical language of Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, and Jainism; and a literary language and lingua franca for the educated of ancient and medieval India.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Sanskrit][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/jEd9i.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16563" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4955" RevisionGUID="2378dcb0-7487-4bb4-a2c8-ac4ad41e623e" CreationDate="2018-05-26T11:59:27.433" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="added 881 characters in body" Text="**[Sanskrit][1]** -  is the primary liturgical language of Hinduism; a philosophical language of Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, and Jainism; and a literary language and lingua franca for the educated of ancient and medieval India.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**[Vedic Sanskrit][2]** -  is an Indo-European language, more specifically one branch of the Indo-Iranian group. It is the ancient language of the Vedas of Hinduism, texts compiled over the period of the mid-2nd to mid-1st millennium BCE.[1] It was orally preserved, predating the advent of Brahmi script by several centuries. Vedic Sanskrit is an archaic language, whose consensus translation has been challenging.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**[Languages of India][3]** - Languages spoken in India belong to several language families, the major ones being the Indo-Aryan languages spoken by 76.5% of Indians and the Dravidian languages spoken by 20.5% of Indians. Other 3% languages belong to the Austroasiatic, Sino-Tibetan, Tai-Kadai, and a few other minor language families and isolates.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Sanskrit][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_Sanskrit&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_India&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/jEd9i.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16564" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4956" RevisionGUID="cd249d03-0ed8-4201-b706-3e99c0b90d60" CreationDate="2018-05-26T12:31:45.697" UserId="1241" Text="If an angel can fall, can a demon rise? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to most Christian teaching and traditions, the short answer is **no**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Your question however does pose certain interesting perplexities to say the least.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First of all, I would like to make it clear that the Gospels do mention that there is such a thing as an unpardonable sin that man can commit. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The unpardonable/unforgivable sin or “blasphemy of the Holy Spirit” is mentioned in Mark 3:22–30 and Matthew 12:22–32. Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter” (Mark 3:28), but then He gives one exception: “Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin” (verse 29). - [What is the unpardonable sin / unforgivable sin?][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most theologians believe that the unpardonable sin the refusal of God's mercy and forgiveness and thus the individual condemns itself to hell of the damned because it refuses to be pardoned by god for it's sins. Thus the soul in hell becomes damned (not a demon) in hell who shares the company of Satan and all his demons for all eternity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Roman Catholic teaching there are six sins that blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. They are: 1. Despair (believing that one's evil is beyond God's forgiveness); 2. Presumption (glory without merit, that is, hope of salvation without keeping the Commandments, or expectation of pardon for sin without repentance); 3. Envying the goodness of another (sadness or repining at another's growth in virtue and perfection); 4. Obstinacy in sin (willful persisting in wickedness, and running on from sin to sin, after sufficient instructions and admonition); 5. Final impenitence (to die without either confession or contrition for our sins), and 6. Impugning the known truth (to argue against known points of faith, and this includes misrepresenting parts or all of the Christian faith to make it seem undesirable). - [Eternal sin (Wikipedia)][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For most denomination, the souls of men in hell are there for eternity and are known as the damned, not demons. The one notable exception is in Mormonism.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The other sense in which Mormons sometimes use the word &quot;hell&quot; is as a reference to what they call Outer Darkness, which is reserved for Satan and his spiritual minions, together with a few human beings that qualify as &quot;sons of perdition.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Although this would be close to the classical conception of Hell, the Mormon belief is that very few will go there, for the bar to be sent there is quite high. One must have a sure knowledge (beyond faith) that Jesus is the Christ, and then reject him anyway in the face of such a knowledge. This is Judas Iscariot territory and really beyond the capacity of the average person to achieve.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mormons also believe that just because you're dead doesn't mean the game is over. They take seriously the Descensus (mentioned in the Apostle's Creed), and believe that Jesus descended into the Spirit World during the three days that his body lay in the tomb to initiate the preaching of the Gospel to the spirits there, and organized this postmortem evangelization so that it continues even today. So even those who never had an opportunity to hear the Gospel will have such a chance in the next life.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Further, Mormons believe that there are certain necessary, salvific ordinances (what other Christians would call &quot;sacraments&quot;), that one must receive to achieve the Celestial (or highest) Kingdom. That is why Mormons perform these sacraments vicariously for the dead in their temples.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; So, for instance, if a deceased person is baptized for the dead, that doesn't mean that person is considered a member of the Church or a Mormon; it simply means that the sacrament has been performed on his or her behalf and he or she has the option to accept it, but also the freedom of will to reject it.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; So Bell's formulation that &quot;everyone will have a place in heaven, whatever that turns out to be&quot; is one that resonates with me, and I think he's on the right path. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; I don't believe that a just God would subject people to eternal physical torment for ever and ever, especially when in many cases people simply did not have an opportunity to learn of the Gospel in this life through no fault of their own. - [Mormon Damnation][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although Mormon theology allows for a soul in hell to be saved and eventually take up to heaven, it should be noted that the Church of Latter Day Saints is not recognized as a Christian denomination by many other Christian communities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.gotquestions.org/unpardonable-sin.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_sin&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.truthandgrace.com/damned.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16565" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4956" RevisionGUID="a3226a1f-b9f4-446a-ba74-dd631328b4cb" CreationDate="2018-05-26T14:41:43.710" UserId="1241" Comment="added 197 characters in body" Text="If an angel can fall, can a demon rise? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to most Christian teaching and traditions, the short answer is **no**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Your question however does pose certain interesting perplexities to say the least.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First of all, I would like to make it clear that the Gospels do mention that there is such a thing as an unpardonable sin that man can commit. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The unpardonable/unforgivable sin or “blasphemy of the Holy Spirit” is mentioned in Mark 3:22–30 and Matthew 12:22–32. Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter” (Mark 3:28), but then He gives one exception: “Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin” (verse 29). - [What is the unpardonable sin / unforgivable sin?][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most theologians believe that the unpardonable sin the refusal of God's mercy and forgiveness and thus the individual condemns itself to hell of the damned because it refuses to be pardoned by god for it's sins. Thus the soul in hell becomes damned (not a demon) in hell who shares the company of Satan and all his demons for all eternity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Roman Catholic teaching there are six sins that blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. They are: 1. Despair (believing that one's evil is beyond God's forgiveness); 2. Presumption (glory without merit, that is, hope of salvation without keeping the Commandments, or expectation of pardon for sin without repentance); 3. Envying the goodness of another (sadness or repining at another's growth in virtue and perfection); 4. Obstinacy in sin (willful persisting in wickedness, and running on from sin to sin, after sufficient instructions and admonition); 5. Final impenitence (to die without either confession or contrition for our sins), and 6. Impugning the known truth (to argue against known points of faith, and this includes misrepresenting parts or all of the Christian faith to make it seem undesirable). - [Eternal sin (Wikipedia)][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For most denomination, the souls of men in hell are there for eternity and are known as the damned, not demons. The one notable exception is in Mormonism.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The other sense in which Mormons sometimes use the word &quot;hell&quot; is as a reference to what they call Outer Darkness, which is reserved for Satan and his spiritual minions, together with a few human beings that qualify as &quot;sons of perdition.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Although this would be close to the classical conception of Hell, the Mormon belief is that very few will go there, for the bar to be sent there is quite high. One must have a sure knowledge (beyond faith) that Jesus is the Christ, and then reject him anyway in the face of such a knowledge. This is Judas Iscariot territory and really beyond the capacity of the average person to achieve.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mormons also believe that just because you're dead doesn't mean the game is over. They take seriously the Descensus (mentioned in the Apostle's Creed), and believe that Jesus descended into the Spirit World during the three days that his body lay in the tomb to initiate the preaching of the Gospel to the spirits there, and organized this postmortem evangelization so that it continues even today. So even those who never had an opportunity to hear the Gospel will have such a chance in the next life.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Further, Mormons believe that there are certain necessary, salvific ordinances (what other Christians would call &quot;sacraments&quot;), that one must receive to achieve the Celestial (or highest) Kingdom. That is why Mormons perform these sacraments vicariously for the dead in their temples.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; So, for instance, if a deceased person is baptized for the dead, that doesn't mean that person is considered a member of the Church or a Mormon; it simply means that the sacrament has been performed on his or her behalf and he or she has the option to accept it, but also the freedom of will to reject it.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; So Bell's formulation that &quot;everyone will have a place in heaven, whatever that turns out to be&quot; is one that resonates with me, and I think he's on the right path. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; I don't believe that a just God would subject people to eternal physical torment for ever and ever, especially when in many cases people simply did not have an opportunity to learn of the Gospel in this life through no fault of their own. - [Mormon Damnation][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although Mormon theology allows for a soul in hell to be saved and eventually take up to heaven, it should be noted that the Church of Latter Day Saints is not recognized as a Christian denomination by many other Christian communities. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In most Christian Churches, the term [demon][4] signifies a devil such as Lucifer, Satan, Beelzebub, Zebulun, Meridian or Asmodeus as well as all the other evil spirits in hell who are damned for eternity for their sins.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.gotquestions.org/unpardonable-sin.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_sin&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.truthandgrace.com/damned.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://christianity.stackexchange.com/a/61837/25495" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16566" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4956" RevisionGUID="21b7954f-a60f-497e-ae80-d1034e4cc81a" CreationDate="2018-05-26T14:48:12.533" UserId="1241" Comment="added 3 characters in body" Text="If an angel can fall, can a demon rise? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to most Christian teaching and traditions, the short answer is **no**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Your question however does pose certain interesting perplexities to say the least.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First of all, I would like to make it clear that the Gospels do mention that there is such a thing as an unpardonable sin that man can commit. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The unpardonable/unforgivable sin or “blasphemy of the Holy Spirit” is mentioned in Mark 3:22–30 and Matthew 12:22–32. Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter” (Mark 3:28), but then He gives one exception: “Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin” (verse 29). - [What is the unpardonable sin / unforgivable sin?][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most theologians believe that the unpardonable sin the refusal of God's mercy and forgiveness and thus the individual condemns itself to hell of the damned because it refuses to be pardoned by god for it's sins. Thus the soul in hell becomes damned (not a demon) in hell who shares the company of Satan and all his demons for all eternity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Roman Catholic teaching there are six sins that blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. They are: 1. Despair (believing that one's evil is beyond God's forgiveness); 2. Presumption (glory without merit, that is, hope of salvation without keeping the Commandments, or expectation of pardon for sin without repentance); 3. Envying the goodness of another (sadness or repining at another's growth in virtue and perfection); 4. Obstinacy in sin (willful persisting in wickedness, and running on from sin to sin, after sufficient instructions and admonition); 5. Final impenitence (to die without either confession or contrition for our sins), and 6. Impugning the known truth (to argue against known points of faith, and this includes misrepresenting parts or all of the Christian faith to make it seem undesirable). - [Eternal sin (Wikipedia)][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For most denomination, the souls of men in hell are there for eternity and are known as the damned, not demons. The one notable exception is in Mormonism.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The other sense in which Mormons sometimes use the word &quot;hell&quot; is as a reference to what they call Outer Darkness, which is reserved for Satan and his spiritual minions, together with a few human beings that qualify as &quot;sons of perdition.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Although this would be close to the classical conception of Hell, the Mormon belief is that very few will go there, for the bar to be sent there is quite high. One must have a sure knowledge (beyond faith) that Jesus is the Christ, and then reject him anyway in the face of such a knowledge. This is Judas Iscariot territory and really beyond the capacity of the average person to achieve.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mormons also believe that just because you're dead doesn't mean the game is over. They take seriously the Descensus (mentioned in the Apostle's Creed), and believe that Jesus descended into the Spirit World during the three days that his body lay in the tomb to initiate the preaching of the Gospel to the spirits there, and organized this postmortem evangelization so that it continues even today. So even those who never had an opportunity to hear the Gospel will have such a chance in the next life.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Further, Mormons believe that there are certain necessary, salvific ordinances (what other Christians would call &quot;sacraments&quot;), that one must receive to achieve the Celestial (or highest) Kingdom. That is why Mormons perform these sacraments vicariously for the dead in their temples.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; So, for instance, if a deceased person is baptized for the dead, that doesn't mean that person is considered a member of the Church or a Mormon; it simply means that the sacrament has been performed on his or her behalf and he or she has the option to accept it, but also the freedom of will to reject it.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; So Bell's formulation that &quot;everyone will have a place in heaven, whatever that turns out to be&quot; is one that resonates with me, and I think he's on the right path. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; I don't believe that a just God would subject people to eternal physical torment for ever and ever, especially when in many cases people simply did not have an opportunity to learn of the Gospel in this life through no fault of their own. - [Mormon Damnation][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although Mormon theology allows for a soul in hell to be saved and eventually taken up into heaven, it should be noted that the Church of Latter Day Saints is not recognized as a Christian denomination by many other Christian communities. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In most Christian Churches, the term [demon][4] signifies a devil such as Lucifer, Satan, Beelzebub, Zebulun, Meridian or Asmodeus as well as all the other evil spirits in hell who are damned for eternity for their sins.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.gotquestions.org/unpardonable-sin.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_sin&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.truthandgrace.com/damned.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://christianity.stackexchange.com/a/61837/25495" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16567" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4955" RevisionGUID="ab1c315f-4fd9-4e51-b609-710ea56f2604" CreationDate="2018-05-26T15:57:52.370" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="added 120 characters in body" Text="**[Sanskrit][1]** -  is the primary liturgical language of Hinduism; a philosophical language of Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, and Jainism; and a literary language and lingua franca for the educated of ancient and medieval India.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**[Vedic Sanskrit][2]** -  is an Indo-European language, more specifically one branch of the Indo-Iranian group. It is the ancient language of the Vedas of Hinduism, texts compiled over the period of the mid-2nd to mid-1st millennium BCE.[1] It was orally preserved, predating the advent of Brahmi script by several centuries. Vedic Sanskrit is an archaic language, whose consensus translation has been challenging.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**[Ancient Indian Languages][3]** - the literary tradition of Ancient India clearly goes back more than 3000 years, and during this period was dominated by Sanskrit, first in its Vedic and later in its classical form. By the time Panini’s Grammar had standardised Sanskrit (about 5th century BC), language had developed another branch besides Sanskrit—the language of the masses, Prakrit or Middle Indo-Aryan (though these terms came into use much later).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Sanskrit][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_Sanskrit&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.importantindia.com/3838/ancient-indian-languages/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/jEd9i.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16568" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4733" RevisionGUID="daeadc77-64e6-4205-9a6b-e5eda052f17e" CreationDate="2018-05-26T22:45:12.220" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="16569" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4957" RevisionGUID="bfbe18fd-7bfc-400c-b62f-959c78ac8a27" CreationDate="2018-05-27T12:01:37.623" UserId="666" Text="The last Ice age glaciers were gone at least by 5000 BCE. This is about 500 years before Proto-Indo-European is usually dated, which is about as far we can trace any shred of mythological knowledge, but which AFAIK does not include any Frost giants. Thus, no connection there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Next step is the speakers of Proto-German. They are thought to have lived in southern Scandinavia and northern Germany, from about 500 BCE. They could most likely have come into contact with glaciers; there are today [several in Norway][1], even in the southern part of the country. Proto-Germanic had a [word for glacier][2], so they must have known of them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But did these speakers of Proto-German have any concept of Frost Giants? That, we can not know. The first reliable knowledge of Norse mythology comes from Tacitus *Germania*, which mentions a few gods identifiable with deities in the Norse pantheon. Archeological finds with images that can be clearly identified with them are younger. However, this does not really tell us anything about giants: they could be older or younger than the Aesir and Vanir. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We can reconstruct several Proto-Germanic words for &quot;giant&quot;, such as for jotun, [which comes from &quot;eater&quot;][3]. The word for &quot;Frost Giant&quot; was &quot;hrimþurs&quot;, where &quot;hrim&quot; meant &quot;frost&quot;, and &quot;þurs&quot; is a word of more obscure origin but which means giant or monster. Again, there is no reason to connect it to glaciers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first sure mention of these Frost giants I've found is in Snorri's *Edda* from the 11th century CE. There, they are not in any way connected to glaciers. They are, however, mentioned to be evil. In general, though, most of the Norse stories we have show how giants and gods fight with each other, not with humans (at least not until Ragnarök). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To summarise: there is no direct reason, based on the myths or etymology, to suppose any connection between frost giants and glaciers. Glaciers, in general, does not reveal especially fertile lands - it is still far too cold next to them for the Norse to have had any use of the land for anything except maybe grazing. They also retreat rather slowly. However, there was (and still is) an ongoing process by which new, fertile land was revealed: the [Plost-glacial rebound][4]. This is especially noticeable in the areas around Stockholm and Uppsala in Sweden. However, I know of no myth that accounts for it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;The date of the Ice age, as well as the archeological finds of pcitures of Norse gods, I found in *Sveriges Historia, 13000 f Kr -600 e Kr*. The dating of PIE in Ola Wikander, *Ett träd med vida grenar*. The etymologies as per links in the text, as well as [Svenska Akademiens Ordbok][5].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_glaciers_in_Norway&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.etymonline.com/word/icicle&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.etymonline.com/word/ettin?ref=etymonline_crossreference&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-glacial_rebound&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.svenska.se" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16570" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4958" RevisionGUID="f83cebaa-0000-4064-8ce7-7cfb275b0f2a" CreationDate="2018-05-27T17:26:50.207" UserId="5013" Text="It seems, as with many Christian traditions and customs, that its origin is Pagan and it was adopted and modified for Christian use.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the book “History of the Berwickshire Naturalists' Club, Instituted September 22, 1831, Volume 9” in a section titled &quot;[On a discovery of Horse-heads in the Belfry of Elsdon Church, Northumberland. By Dr. Edward C. Robersson, Otterburn][1]” on pg. 510–511, there is a description of the eggs and their use.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Pg. 510. “Many Pagan customs still obtain amongst us and many have only lately died out. In all countries superstitions die hard…&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pg. 511. “In Easter we have the Saxon Goddess of Spring in proper person Eostre and throughout the Eastern Church as well as in the West we have the eggs still which were offered to the goddess Eostre as a symbol of production or as the Roman Catholic Church says of the resurrection. Paul II in 1466 issued a form of benediction of eggs for England “for those eating them in thankfulness on account of the resurrection of our Lord.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pg. 511 “We need not feel surprise at such superstitious practices being connected with Christianity. The early missionaries did not stamp out such things but gave them a religious turn.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=kvkXAAAAYAAJ&amp;lpg=PA514&amp;dq=ut%20de%20animalium%20capitibus%20sacrificial%20sacrilega%20non%20exhibeant&amp;pg=PA510#v=onepage&amp;q=eostre&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16571" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4813" RevisionGUID="24a58d77-e784-48e4-a1e2-736a2b626006" CreationDate="2018-05-27T18:45:53.100" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="16572" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4820" RevisionGUID="586e4290-0b02-4a66-99f6-aada1d263aa6" CreationDate="2018-05-27T20:45:55.307" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="16576" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="1023" RevisionGUID="9f8defcd-c4fc-4ba9-9bc6-0af304d496f5" CreationDate="2018-05-28T14:04:37.567" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="16578" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4823" RevisionGUID="32d53d59-c41e-43d8-b01a-b370c45c1a5a" CreationDate="2018-05-29T23:04:30.957" UserId="4271" Comment="corrected spelling" Text="According to **Longman Dictionary Of Language And Culture:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **phan‧tom** */ˈfæntəm/* noun&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1. a shadowy likeness of a dead person that seems to appear on earth; GHOST.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2. something that exists only in one's imagination.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **ghost** /ɡəʊst/ noun&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1. the spirit of a dead person that some people think they can feel or see in a place&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2. also **ghost‧writ‧er** ...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 3. **give up the ghost** ...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4. **the ghost of a** ...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 5. **the ghost of Christmas past** ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Stereotypes of ghosts:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Stereotypes of ghosts][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Thus** some meaning of this two words are same, and some are not. In other words these two words are synonyms in some cases..&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/UQwzx.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16580" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4961" RevisionGUID="8c7beb99-2605-497e-9105-b3a08ba5395f" CreationDate="2018-05-30T00:48:59.537" UserId="4271" Text="The Greeks had four concepts for love: Eros, Storge, Philia and Agape. Eros being passionate love or romantic love. Storge means love between good friends and family. Philia is translated as friendship. And agape is an unconditional love for all you meet, translated as affection, meaning 'greet with affection.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only obvious connection is the god Eros paired with the concept of eros. Eros would make mortals and gods fall in love by shooting them with his gold arrows. He could also turn their heart away from love by shooting them with lead arrows (Daphne and Apollo).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have a hard time placing Aphrodite. My first thought was that agape somehow came from Aphrodite. But after looking at translations and definitions of the four, I would say she most fits the concept of eros.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What concepts do other Greek gods and goddess represent?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16581" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4961" RevisionGUID="8c7beb99-2605-497e-9105-b3a08ba5395f" CreationDate="2018-05-30T00:48:59.537" UserId="4271" Text="What kind of love do the gods represent?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16582" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4961" RevisionGUID="8c7beb99-2605-497e-9105-b3a08ba5395f" CreationDate="2018-05-30T00:48:59.537" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|aphrodite|concepts|love|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16583" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4903" RevisionGUID="627d85c3-afac-4c29-a663-00844dcb76c0" CreationDate="2018-05-30T00:51:18.900" UserId="4271" Comment="deleted 7 characters in body" Text="I am a Latin student, and currently studying the Trojan war myths&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How could Aphrodite, being the goddess of love (being  almost as far from a war goddess as possible) help Paris and the Trojans during the Trojan war?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16584" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4909" RevisionGUID="56ccb0cc-024f-4d8b-8059-ae43042a4c49" CreationDate="2018-05-30T01:09:17.560" UserId="4271" Comment="added 76 characters in body" Text="Being the goddess of beauty and love doesn't turn Aphrodite harmless. Quite the contrary...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Theoi](http://www.theoi.com/) site gives a [full summary of Aphrodite's role in the Trojan war](http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/AphroditeMyths2.html#Troy).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  - Convinced Ares to side with the Trojans.&#xD;&#xA;  - Saved Paris when he lost his duel against Menelaus.&#xD;&#xA;  - Wounded by Diomedes while trying to save Aeneas. &#xD;&#xA;  - Takes part in the battle of the gods after Patroclus's death.&#xD;&#xA;  - She and Apollo protected the corpse of Hector until it could be ransomed by his father Priam.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And this is only in the *Iliad*, Aphrodite also protects Aeneas (his son), helping him escape after the fall of Troy, and saves Helen from the wrath of Menelaus, rekindling their love.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's also notable that in the myths, the Trojan War is originated by love and a beauty contest in which Aphrodite bought the jury (Paris) by offering him the most beautiful mortal in the world to be his wife, which happened to be Helen.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16585" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="4809" RevisionGUID="2521d9e4-9620-460a-9708-165d08da111f" CreationDate="2018-05-30T01:14:25.543" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|comparative|japanese|shinto|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16586" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4809" RevisionGUID="2521d9e4-9620-460a-9708-165d08da111f" CreationDate="2018-05-30T01:14:25.543" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="A sun-shower is when it rains while the sun is shining.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Japanese culture/Shinto Mythology, sun-showers were/are believed to be the result of two Kitsune (fox spirits) getting married. It was viewed as good luck.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do any other cultures/Mythologies express their views on sun-showers?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16589" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4962" RevisionGUID="7fdfb26e-97f0-4b40-be00-fa5d09da5919" CreationDate="2018-05-30T18:25:19.130" UserId="5103" Text="I have a birth mark on the bottom of my right food. It is a crescent moon reddish in color... it faces the same way a C would. I'm just curious if it has a significant meaning to it because I've always felt a strong connection to the moon and things like crystals and all that cool type of stuff.. ![enter image description here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/vA0CG.jpg)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16590" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4962" RevisionGUID="7fdfb26e-97f0-4b40-be00-fa5d09da5919" CreationDate="2018-05-30T18:25:19.130" UserId="5103" Text="Trying to find out the meaning of my birthmark" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16591" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4962" RevisionGUID="7fdfb26e-97f0-4b40-be00-fa5d09da5919" CreationDate="2018-05-30T18:25:19.130" UserId="5103" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16592" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="4962" RevisionGUID="029f3afe-2597-4598-82ee-e83dbf705e94" CreationDate="2018-05-30T19:15:41.887" UserId="2892" Comment="retagged, even though this is probably not a suitable question" Text="|symbolism+|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16593" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4963" RevisionGUID="03cd412f-ff9c-416e-8dde-baf4ec040176" CreationDate="2018-05-30T19:29:20.673" UserId="2892" Text="Informally, I'd say the crescent can definite be taken as a lunar symbol, reinforcing your connection to the moon.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding the letter C in relation to quartz crystals, this is much shakier because &quot;crystal&quot; is an English word, and has different forms in other languages: *kristall* is German for crystal; in Catalan it's *vidre*; in Chinese it's 水晶 (*Shuǐjīng*).  You can see the problem.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a nice semi-mythical parallel using letters, in the sense that Shakespeare can be considered a myth-maker.  (Mythology defined here from a strictly narrative, as opposed to religious, perspective:)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Richard plots to have his brother Clarence, who stands before him in the line of succession, executed over a prophecy that &quot;G of King Edward's heirs the murderer shall be&quot;. Richard leads the king to interpret this as referring to **G**eorge of Clarence, without realizing it actually refers to Richard of **G**loucester.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*(PS--don't trust wiki entirely.  Always best to read or see the play.  George of Clarence isn't drowned in a any old wine, but a &quot;butt of [malmsey][1]&quot;;)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malvasia" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16594" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4961" RevisionGUID="120289de-657f-4351-b549-1b7555dd0c35" CreationDate="2018-05-30T19:47:15.237" UserId="2892" Comment="added 475 characters in body" Text="The Greeks had four concepts for love: *éros* ([ἔρος][1]), *storgē* ([στοργή][2]), *philía* ([φιλία][3]) and *agápe* ([ἀγάπη][4]). Eros being passionate love or romantic love. Storge means love between good friends and family. Philia is translated as friendship. And agape is an unconditional love for all you meet, translated as affection, meaning 'greet with affection.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only obvious connection is the god Eros paired with the concept of eros. Eros would make mortals and gods fall in love by shooting them with his gold arrows. He could also turn their heart away from love by shooting them with lead arrows (Daphne and Apollo).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have a hard time placing Aphrodite. My first thought was that agape somehow came from Aphrodite. But after looking at translations and definitions of the four, I would say she most fits the concept of eros.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What concepts do other Greek gods and goddess represent?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3De)%2Fros1&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dstorgh%2F&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dfili%2Fa&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Da)ga%2Fph" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16595" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4964" RevisionGUID="11abfc9f-420b-46bb-acc8-baf657e37b79" CreationDate="2018-05-30T20:38:49.580" UserId="2892" Text="*This is a very complex question.  I am not an expert, but here is my initial research:*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [earliest text of the Ramayana][1] seems to be ~11th century CE, but it has been proposed that it predates [the Mahabharata ~8th/9th century BCE][2], with the oldest surviving text fragments ~400 BCE.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Looking at the roots of Hindi I found [Shauraseni](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shauraseni_language) and [Apabhranśa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apabhra%E1%B9%83%C5%9Ba)...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the [Sanskrit wiki][3] has a nice section on coexistence with vernacular languages:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to Sanskrit linguist Madhav Deshpande, when the term &quot;Sanskrit&quot; arose it was not considered a separate language, but rather as a particularly refined or perfected manner of speaking. Knowledge of Sanskrit was a marker of social class and educational attainment in ancient India, and the language was taught mainly to members of the higher castes through the close analysis of Vyākaraṇins such as Pāṇini and Patanjali, who exhorted proper Sanskrit at all times, especially during ritual. Sanskrit, as the learned language of Ancient India, thus existed alongside the vernacular Prakrits, which were Middle Indo-Aryan languages. However, linguistic change led to an eventual loss of mutual intelligibility. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;A rock inscription at Junagadh added around 150 CE by Mahakshatrap Rudradaman I, the Saka (Scythian) ruler of Malwa, has been described as &quot;the earliest known Sanscrit inscription of any extent&quot;, as the Ashokan and other early inscriptions were in Prakrit of various forms. This &quot;unexpected resurgence as a language of contemporary record&quot; is a sign of a &quot;brahminical renaissance&quot;, which continued through the Gupta period, expanding the usage of Sanscrit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This led me to conclude:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- It seems not unlikely that the common language of the times was **[Prakrit][4]**, a term for any of several Middle [Indo-Aryan languages][5] formerly spoken in India.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Middle Indo-Aryan (MIA) stage in the evolution of Indo-Aryan languages is thought to have spanned more than a millennium between 600 BCE and 1000 CE, and is often divided into three major subdivisions.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Middle Indo-Aryan languages are younger than the Old Indo-Aryan languages but were contemporaneous with the use of Classical Sanskrit, an Old Indo-Aryan language used for literary purposes&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- It seems not unlikely that **[Old Indo-Aryan][6]** is the original linguistic source.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The earliest evidence of the group is from Vedic and Mitanni-Aryan. **Vedic has been used in the ancient preserved religious hymns, the foundational canon of Hinduism known as the Vedas.** Mitanni-Aryan is of similar age to the language of the Rigveda, but the only evidence of it is a few proper names and specialized loanwords. The language of the Vedas - commonly referred to as &quot;Vedic Sanskrit&quot; by modern scholars - is only marginally different from reconstructed Proto-Indo-Aryan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;From the Vedic, &quot;Sanskrit&quot; (literally &quot;put together&quot;, meaning perfected or elaborated) developed as the prestige language of culture, science and religion, as well as the court, theatre, etc. Sanskrit is, by convention, referred to by modern scholars as 'Classical Sanskrit' in contradistinction to the so-called 'Vedic Sanskrit', which is largely intelligible to Sanskrit speakers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See also: the [Fifth Veda][7]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramayana#Textual_history_and_structure&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit#Coexistence_with_vernacular_languages&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prakrit&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Indo-Aryan_languages&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_languages#Old_Indo-Aryan&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Veda#Sanskrit_texts:_the_%22Panchama_Veda%22" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16596" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4962" RevisionGUID="720b6550-466c-4970-9898-794698d90b07" CreationDate="2018-05-31T06:09:00.133" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="corrected grammar" Text="I have a birth mark on the bottom of my right foot. It is a crescent moon reddish in color... it faces the same way a C would. I'm just curious if it has a significant meaning to it because I've always felt a strong connection to the moon and things like crystals and all that cool type of stuff.. !&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[photo of the foot](https://i.stack.imgur.com/vA0CG.jpg)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16597" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4962" RevisionGUID="720b6550-466c-4970-9898-794698d90b07" CreationDate="2018-05-31T06:09:00.133" Comment="Proposed by 4660 approved by 666, 57 edit id of 1656" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16609" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4969" RevisionGUID="b7e949e1-c117-41aa-b3fe-7464834d3a77" CreationDate="2018-06-01T14:56:22.670" UserId="2807" Text="Perseus armed with a sickle has a well established iconography in Greek mythology:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From [Theoi.com](http://www.theoi.com/Gallery/P23.7.html):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Perseus decapitates the Gorgon Medusa][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But why does Perseus carry this &quot;weapon&quot; instead of a proper sword, like it is shown in later depictions?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The obvious answer is because the Gods gave it to him and it was magical. About who exactly gave him this weapon, [Theoi.com](http://www.theoi.com/Heros/Perseus.html) has sources for Athena and Hermes, while Wikipedia says it was Zeus in two articles: [*Perseus*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseus) and [*harpe*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harpe)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But is there any meaning to it?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like an agricultural meaning or maybe a clue pointing at a possible foreign origin of this myth?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And, if it was really Zeus the god who gave the sickle to Perseus, does that mean it could be the same sickle used by Cronus against his father Uranus?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/kd0KT.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16610" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4969" RevisionGUID="b7e949e1-c117-41aa-b3fe-7464834d3a77" CreationDate="2018-06-01T14:56:22.670" UserId="2807" Text="Why does Perseus carry a sickle instead of a sword?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16611" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4969" RevisionGUID="b7e949e1-c117-41aa-b3fe-7464834d3a77" CreationDate="2018-06-01T14:56:22.670" UserId="2807" Text="|greek|weapons|perseus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16612" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4969" RevisionGUID="39e89c52-f236-4155-93f4-cbadd8533bf7" CreationDate="2018-06-01T19:47:26.373" UserId="2807" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body" Text="Perseus armed with a sickle has a well established iconography in Greek mythology:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From [Theoi.com](http://www.theoi.com/Gallery/P23.7.html):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Perseus decapitates the Gorgon Medusa][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But why does Perseus carry this &quot;weapon&quot; instead of a proper sword, like it is shown in later depictions?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The obvious answer is because the Gods gave it to him and it was magical. About who exactly gave him this weapon, [Theoi.com](http://www.theoi.com/Heros/Perseus.html) has sources for Athena and Hermes, while Wikipedia says it was Zeus in two articles: [*Perseus*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseus) and [*harpe*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harpe)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But is there any meaning to it?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like an agricultural link, or maybe a clue pointing to a possible foreign origin of this myth?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And, if it was really Zeus the god who gave the sickle to Perseus, does that mean it could be the same sickle used by Cronus against his father Uranus?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/kd0KT.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16613" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4970" RevisionGUID="b3857fa7-11b8-4cb0-8675-e5093f0866fb" CreationDate="2018-06-01T21:08:58.633" UserId="2807" Text="About your first question, there are no mentions of that Perseus in the *Odyssey*, but of another Perseus that was son of Nestor and Eurydice (or Anaxibia).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And in the *Iliad* there's no link of Perseus with Mycenae, but there it is with Argos:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and swiftly came to Achaean Argos, where she knew was the stately wife&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Sthenelus, son of Perseus, that bare a son in her womb, and lo, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; seventh month was come. This child Hera brought forth to the light&#xD;&#xA;&gt; even before the full tale of the months, but stayed Alcmene's bearing,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and held back the Eileithyiae. And herself spake to Zeus, son of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cronos, to bear him word: ‘Father Zeus, lord of the bright lightning,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a word will I speak for thy heeding. Lo, even now, is born a valiant&#xD;&#xA;&gt; man that shall be lord over the Argives, even Eurystheus, son of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sthenelus, the son of Perseus, of thine own lineage; not unmeet is it&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that he be lord over the Argives.’&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;[Hom. Il. 19.115](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0134:book=19:card=114&amp;highlight=perseus)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Argives&quot; could be used as an epithet for the whole Greeks, but Homer mentions &quot;Achaean Argos&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;About your second question, searching &quot;Mycenae&quot; in the *Iliad* brings [five results](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/searchresults?target=en&amp;inContent=true&amp;q=Mycenae&amp;doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134) in the Perseus site (for a total of seven mentions). An extra one if you search for &quot;Mycene&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In my opinion, these two are the only relevant results for your question:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And with them came a third, Euryalus, a godlike warrior, son of king&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mecisteus, son of Talaus; but leader over them all was Diomedes, good&#xD;&#xA;&gt; at the war-cry. And with these there followed eighty black ships. And&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they that held **Mycenae, the well-built citadel**, and wealthy&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Corinth, and well-built Cleonae, and dwelt in Orneiae and lovely&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Araethyrea and Sicyon, wherein at the first Adrastus was king; and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they that held Hyperesia and steep Gonoessa and Pellene&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;[Hom. Il. 2.565](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0134:book=2:card=546&amp;highlight=mycenae)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then in answer to him spake ox-eyed, queenly Hera: “Verily have I three&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cities that are far dearest in my sight, Argos and Sparta and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **broad-wayed Mycenae**; these do thou lay waste whensoe'er they shall be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hateful to thy heart. Not in their defence do I stand forth, nor&#xD;&#xA;&gt; account them too greatly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;[Hom. Il. 4.50](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0134:book=4:card=50&amp;highlight=mycenae)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, Agamemnon is sometimes referred to as &quot;king of Mycenae, rich in gold&quot;, and the only mention of Mycenae in the *Odyssey* is this one:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Seven years he reigned over **Mycenae, rich in gold**, after slaying&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the son of Atreus, and the people were subdued under him; but in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eighth came as his bane the goodly Orestes back from Athens, and slew&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his father's murderer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;[Hom. Od. 3.305](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0136:book=3:card=276&amp;highlight=mycenae)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So with these three things we can make from Homer that Mycenae was a well-built citadel, made of broad streets, and very rich in gold.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16615" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4972" RevisionGUID="6beff04f-8315-4f08-b10a-4f0799d2006d" CreationDate="2018-06-01T21:50:04.433" UserId="3560" Text="I am trying to develop a comprehensive understanding of the mythology built around the Abrahamic religions. To that end I was trying to find every historical religious text about the Abrahamic religions, whether that be the Tanakh, the New Testament, the Quran, the Book of Mormon, the Apocrypha, the Gnostic Gospels, the Divine Comedy, Paradise Lost, the Temptation of St. Anthony, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That is to say, I was primarily interested in the various paranormal elements like angels, demons, genies, aeons, archons, nephilim, Heaven, Hell, Purgatory, Qlippoth, Sheol, Lilith, Lucifer, Iblis, Yahweh, Yaldabaoth, Samael, etc." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16616" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4972" RevisionGUID="6beff04f-8315-4f08-b10a-4f0799d2006d" CreationDate="2018-06-01T21:50:04.433" UserId="3560" Text="Is there a complete list of Abrahamic texts?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16617" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4972" RevisionGUID="6beff04f-8315-4f08-b10a-4f0799d2006d" CreationDate="2018-06-01T21:50:04.433" UserId="3560" Text="|abrahamic-religions|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16623" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4974" RevisionGUID="b8f4a730-60ff-4a34-bb54-60b7af6c3743" CreationDate="2018-06-02T19:10:56.453" UserId="4271" Text="In the Iliad, book 6, there is a line were Hector is speaking to his mother.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;...Get the matrons together, and go with offerings to the temple of Athena driver of the spoil; there, upon the knees of Athena, lay the largest and fairest robe you have in your house - the one you set most store by; promise, moreover, to **sacrifice twelve yearling heifers that have never yet felt the goad**, in the temple of the goddess if she will take pity on the town, with the wives and little ones of the Trojans, and keep the son...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Retrieved [here][1]  &#xD;&#xA;Note: Bold is my own format.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Goad has the meaning of a cattle prod. Why was it important for the young heifers to have never been steered with a goad?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0217%3Abook%3D6%3Acard%3D212" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16624" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4974" RevisionGUID="b8f4a730-60ff-4a34-bb54-60b7af6c3743" CreationDate="2018-06-02T19:10:56.453" UserId="4271" Text="Why was it important that the cattle have 'never yet felt the goad?'" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16625" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4974" RevisionGUID="b8f4a730-60ff-4a34-bb54-60b7af6c3743" CreationDate="2018-06-02T19:10:56.453" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|trojan-war|iliad|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16626" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4975" RevisionGUID="22394f27-ac26-41b6-8503-0a25aac3b7af" CreationDate="2018-06-02T23:08:08.877" UserId="4271" Text="While exploring [Demeter's][1] title Thesmophoros (θεσμός, thesmos: divine order, unwritten law; φόρος, phoros: bringer, bearer) by clicking on the Wikipedia link, I found nothing relating to it. The link, instead, brought me to [a festival][2] celebrated in Demeter's and Persephone's honor. I read it an at the end of the article, it says on the third day of the festival, women pray to the goddess Kalligeneia for fertility.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who is this goddess?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demeter&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thesmophoria" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16627" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4975" RevisionGUID="22394f27-ac26-41b6-8503-0a25aac3b7af" CreationDate="2018-06-02T23:08:08.877" UserId="4271" Text="Who is the goddess Kalligeneia?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16628" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4975" RevisionGUID="22394f27-ac26-41b6-8503-0a25aac3b7af" CreationDate="2018-06-02T23:08:08.877" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|demeter|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16629" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4976" RevisionGUID="1a681e65-caac-48c9-8a22-282a8cdde81e" CreationDate="2018-06-03T04:03:58.557" UserId="4962" Text="It’s not a goddess, but instead a day. &#xA;&#xA;The quote below is from an undergraduate research paper by Suzanne Allison, which offers a nice description of Kalligeneia.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; [The final day of the festival is the Kalligeneia, “beautiful birth”, when the women would feast and celebrate. The portrayal of Persephone’s emergence from a hole in the ground certainly evokes the image of birth. In addition to this connection, the Kalligeneia was the day when the women would descend into pits which held the remains of sacrificed piglets from earlier in the year. They would bring up the remains and humus, mixing it with the seeds to be planted that fall, believing it would aid in the crops’ fertility.][1]&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://digitalcommons.hollins.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1008&amp;amp=&amp;context=researchawards&amp;amp=&amp;sei-redir=1&amp;referer=https%253A%252F%252Fscholar.google.com%252Fscholar%253Fhl%253Den%2526as_sdt%253D0%25252C14%2526q%253DKalligeneia%2526btnG%253D#search=%22Kalligeneia%22" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16630" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4977" RevisionGUID="446a82b0-67e8-4d7d-89bb-58105b97f76a" CreationDate="2018-06-03T07:24:31.743" UserId="5035" Text="KALLIGENEIA (Calligeneia) was the nymph nursemaid of the goddess Demeter and her daughter Persephone. She was worshipped as a goddess of the Eleusinian Mysteries. &#xD;&#xA;Kalligeneia was perhaps the Naiad-nymph of the sacred Kallikhoros (Callichorus) spring of Eleusis. Alternatively her name might simply be a title of the earth-goddess Gaia." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16632" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4977" RevisionGUID="0a3b385a-05d2-43e1-9042-6899ea1d5662" CreationDate="2018-06-03T10:41:05.650" UserId="57" Comment="added source. please do not just copy paste stuff from the internet." Text="From [theoi.com][1]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; KALLIGENEIA (Calligeneia) was the nymph nursemaid of the goddess Demeter and her daughter Persephone. She was worshipped as a goddess of the Eleusinian Mysteries. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kalligeneia was perhaps the Naiad-nymph of the sacred Kallikhoros (Callichorus) spring of Eleusis. Alternatively her name might simply be a title of the earth-goddess Gaia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheKalligeneia.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16636" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4976" RevisionGUID="6f94ba44-5ee5-49e1-b01a-e247e07d263e" CreationDate="2018-06-03T12:02:10.593" UserId="57" Comment="added 67 characters in body" Text="It’s not a goddess, but instead a day. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The quote is from [Kalligeneia: Fertility and Feminine Focus on an&#xD;&#xA;Athenian Bell Krater][1], an undergraduate research paper by Suzanne Allison and offers a nice description of Kalligeneia:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The final day of the festival is the Kalligeneia, “beautiful birth”, when the women would feast and celebrate. The portrayal of Persephone’s emergence from a hole in the ground certainly evokes the image of birth. In addition to this connection, the Kalligeneia was the day when the women would descend into pits which held the remains of sacrificed piglets from earlier in the year. They would bring up the remains and humus, mixing it with the seeds to be planted that fall, believing it would aid in the crops’ fertility.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://digitalcommons.hollins.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1008&amp;amp=&amp;context=researchawards&amp;amp=&amp;sei-redir=1&amp;referer=https%253A%252F%252Fscholar.google.com%252Fscholar%253Fhl%253Den%2526as_sdt%253D0%25252C14%2526q%253DKalligeneia%2526btnG%253D#search=%22Kalligeneia%22" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16637" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4680" RevisionGUID="6e7abd04-ee97-4df7-91f2-040a279d3b2e" CreationDate="2018-06-04T00:11:46.180" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="16638" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4978" RevisionGUID="ec1956a0-1ad9-475b-8ef7-aab4f3761a4a" CreationDate="2018-06-04T00:46:45.517" UserId="1315" Text="Considering the attribute of &quot;justice&quot; of God, a devil can redeem himself, because if there is a process for the fall, there is the process for the ascent for sure. This is the short answer for &quot;would God forgive a demon and allow it entrance into Heaven?&quot;, following the logic of justice, you can sin and you can be redeemed." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16639" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4979" RevisionGUID="84d07dd2-3ee7-4405-88e9-6e2edadfa08f" CreationDate="2018-06-04T00:59:15.110" UserId="1315" Text="In Henrique C. Agrippa's &quot;occult philosophy&quot; book 2, in his commentary in chapter 18 on Cerberus he focuses on the elements air, water and earth (about the 3 heads) symbology, nothing of the breed is mentioned, because for the symbology it is relevant the aspects that refer to this elements. I suppose the breed is a very concrete detail, so they bring that kind of representation to the surface in animes, movies, etc. to be used, but it is hard to define this for sure!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16640" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4980" RevisionGUID="238d9d7e-1e0e-4cd3-8bb0-e16f99898a1a" CreationDate="2018-06-04T12:45:15.350" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16641" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4980" RevisionGUID="238d9d7e-1e0e-4cd3-8bb0-e16f99898a1a" CreationDate="2018-06-04T12:45:15.350" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16642" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4981" RevisionGUID="8c3a6d2d-1972-451f-97c3-5397307d3d33" CreationDate="2018-06-04T12:45:15.350" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16643" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4981" RevisionGUID="8c3a6d2d-1972-451f-97c3-5397307d3d33" CreationDate="2018-06-04T12:45:15.350" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16644" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4982" RevisionGUID="f3363e43-19db-40c4-a2c6-4874492045b3" CreationDate="2018-06-04T19:40:28.477" UserId="5035" Text="Cerberus was known as the hound of hades. This three headed dog was the offspring of Echidna and Typhon. This Cerberus had three heads, a serpent tail, and snakes coming out of some of his body parts. The Cerberus was three headed but not all the time when written or talked about. The Cerberus was related to many species that had many heads. Cerberus father had many snake heads who was called Typhon. Echidna was half snake who was his mother. Cerberus was the brother of other multi-headed monsters that include Lernaean Hydra, Orthrus, and a two headed dog that guarded the cattle of Geryon. The other one was Chimera who had three heads that's of a lion, goat, and a snake. Cerberus was the only rare multi headed animal talked about that had a sew heads to many heads. In Hesiods Theogonay the Cerberus had fifty heads. Pindar gave the Cerberus one hundred heads. Many writers later on would give the Cerberus three heads. There is one story by poet Horace where the Cerberus has one dog head and a hundred snake heads. In Appollodorus the Cerberus has three heads with a bunch of snakes. In the story of the poet John Tzetzes the Cerberus had fifty heads which three were of a dog and the rest of many beasts. In art from back then the Cerberus is often depicted with having only two heads or just one head. In 590 bc to 580 bc the Cerberus in the Corinthian cup of Argos had only one head. When the Cerberus started showing to have three heads was in the mid sixth century bc on the Laconian cup. The Cerberus was usually depicted have having a snake or dog body with the heads and tails being of that sort. There was other cases were the Cerberus had three bodies that went with the three heads and had three tongues as well. In a Heracles story the Cerberus would vomit out bile which the poisonous aconite plant grew from. The vomiting started when the Cerberus was being taken out the underworld by Heracles. On some accounts the Cerberus would have fire coming out his mouth or a foam of poison that would come out. They never would say what kind of breed of canine the Cerberus was but if they can't referring the Cerberus as a Hell Hound then it was a Hound. The Cerberus was made up canine, lion, goat, and snake in many stories." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16645" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4983" RevisionGUID="dc3cc262-dace-4b89-a33a-ba3a70bf894b" CreationDate="2018-06-05T01:13:44.683" UserId="5035" Text="It depends on the religion and who you are talking about. In Sumerian religion Inanna or Ishtar needed a crown, rings in her ears, beads, toggle pins, girdle birthstone, bangles, and garment. Which was all taken off when entering each gate. The reason for this was to make her weaker. Ishtar got her items back for they were magickal and the Gods helped her get out of the underworld. There is a story were Gilgamesh attains objects from the underworld, which is another Sumerian or Mesopotamia story. A lot of Gods, Goddesses, Demi-Gods, Entities, and Heroes all had to have items to go to the underworld or had to attain items from the underworld. The underworld would be a place depicted as looking the same as earth. Other depictions would be of fire, monsters, and total darkness. There is stories that talk about civilizations living under ground and having cities. I would look at each hero and type in what items they used. It should be really simple because there are a lot of stories involving going into the underworld. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16648" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4984" RevisionGUID="0a2ce9c3-91f2-413f-ba12-7b904049dbc5" CreationDate="2018-06-05T15:44:22.320" UserId="3662" Text="Sacrifices are usually expected to be of high quality and worth, pure, strong or unusual in some way. That's why virgins tend to be sacrificed in many myths and stories or rams, bulls and stallions (i.e. strong examples of masculinity).  &#xD;&#xA;This is easily explained as sacrificing something of great value shows the strength of your devotion or desire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A heifer is a young female cow that hasn't calved, and specifying a yearling enforces the youth aspect. So you're basically talking about a virgin cow. This fits the expected mould of the sacrifice being pure.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sacrificed cows should be perfect and pure, untouched and unsullied in any way.  &#xD;&#xA;Goading usually means using a sharp implement, which is likely to scar or mark the cow's hide in some way. This could be seen to mar their purity or perfection and I would assume this is the reason it was specified the cows should not have felt the goad." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16650" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4985" RevisionGUID="70ecd2a2-9b54-432e-9826-87d879000145" CreationDate="2018-06-07T03:23:41.767" UserId="5017" Text="Try [Louis Ginzberg][1]'s *[Legends of the Jews][2]*. It is a pretty comprehensive collection of such texts. The first four volumes are available online [here][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Ginzberg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legends_of_the_Jews&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/loj/index.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16652" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4961" RevisionGUID="201c5cd2-292e-4c8e-b214-2d2c1912097e" CreationDate="2018-06-09T10:39:32.880" UserId="1317" Comment="Improved title" Text="What kinds of love do individual Greek gods represent?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16653" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4961" RevisionGUID="201c5cd2-292e-4c8e-b214-2d2c1912097e" CreationDate="2018-06-09T10:39:32.880" Comment="Proposed by 1317 approved by 2807, 666 edit id of 1658" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16655" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4981" RevisionGUID="6f744fdf-a865-4e43-b465-1a74934fa1fd" CreationDate="2018-06-09T13:14:41.140" UserId="2807" Comment="added 179 characters in body" Text="For questions about Oedipus, mythical king of Thebes who solved the riddle of the Sphinx and unknowingly killed his father and married his mother, fulfilling a prophecy about him." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16656" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4981" RevisionGUID="6f744fdf-a865-4e43-b465-1a74934fa1fd" CreationDate="2018-06-09T13:14:41.140" Comment="Proposed by 2807 approved by 666, 967 edit id of 1657" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16658" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4987" RevisionGUID="4dfdb2dd-d1b7-43ab-a27a-4e9ab9f9dac6" CreationDate="2018-06-11T18:16:30.897" UserId="5125" Text="Are there any gods or other mythological beings which take on the form of insects? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A partial resemblance (like Khepri) would count as a yes for me, but a god which is simply associated with insects wouldn't." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16659" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4987" RevisionGUID="4dfdb2dd-d1b7-43ab-a27a-4e9ab9f9dac6" CreationDate="2018-06-11T18:16:30.897" UserId="5125" Text="Mythological Beings taking on Insect/Arthropod Form" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16660" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4987" RevisionGUID="4dfdb2dd-d1b7-43ab-a27a-4e9ab9f9dac6" CreationDate="2018-06-11T18:16:30.897" UserId="5125" Text="|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16661" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4988" RevisionGUID="e61ff966-65c6-49d0-9746-f31496b552fb" CreationDate="2018-06-11T20:35:41.837" UserId="2807" Text="In Greek mythology, there's [Tithonus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithonus), mortal lover of Eos, who became a cicada (or a cricket):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the Homeric Hymn to Aphrodite, the goddess Aphrodite retells the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; legend of how Eos, the goddess of the dawn, requested Zeus to let her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lover Tithonus live forever as an immortal. Zeus granted her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; request, but, because Eos forgot to ask him to also make Tithonus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ageless, Tithonus never died, but he did grow old. Eventually, he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; became so tiny and shriveled that he turned into the first cicada.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the same Wikipedia page, [Insects in mythology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insects_in_mythology), there's also this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Homeric Hymn to Apollo acknowledges that Apollo's gift of prophecy&#xD;&#xA;&gt; first came to him from three bee maidens, usually but doubtfully&#xD;&#xA;&gt; identified with the Thriae, a trinity of pre-Hellenic Aegean bee&#xD;&#xA;&gt; goddesses. A series of identical embossed gold plaques were&#xD;&#xA;&gt; recovered at Camiros in Rhodes; they date from the archaic period&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Greek art in the seventh century, but the winged bee goddesses they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; depict must be far older.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16662" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4989" RevisionGUID="7de226de-4c69-45a1-b76d-bf00600e173f" CreationDate="2018-06-12T11:00:30.287" UserId="666" Text="**Loki** could take on the form of a (sting)fly. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He does this in the story in Snorri's *[Skáldskaparmál][1]* that tells of how the Gods got some of their most prized possessions: after having made a bet with the dwarf Sindri and his brother Brokkr that they could not produce more wondrous items than he had already obtained, he took the form of a stingfly to disturb their smithing. His interfering explains why the shaft of Mjölnir is shorter than it should have been.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further, in *[Sörla þáttr][2]*, he took the form of a fly to be able to sneak into Freya's chambers at night and steal her necklace, Brisingamen. Since she slept with it on, and he could not reach the clasp, he turned into a flea and bit her, so she would turn in her sleep.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sk%C3%A1ldskaparm%C3%A1l&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%B6rla_%C3%BE%C3%A1ttr" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16663" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4988" RevisionGUID="adf10bc3-da35-4265-8c3d-3a4fd4241d37" CreationDate="2018-06-12T11:28:43.080" UserId="2807" Comment="Added mythological arthropods, yuck!" Text="In Greek mythology, there's [Tithonus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithonus), mortal lover of Eos, who became a cicada (or a cricket):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the [*Homeric Hymn to Aphrodite*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeric_Hymns), the goddess Aphrodite retells the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; legend of how Eos, the goddess of the dawn, requested Zeus to let her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lover Tithonus live forever as an immortal. Zeus granted her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; request, but, because Eos forgot to ask him to also make Tithonus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ageless, Tithonus never died, but he did grow old. Eventually, he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; became so tiny and shriveled that he turned into the first cicada.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the same Wikipedia page, [Insects in mythology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insects_in_mythology), there's also this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Homeric Hymn to Apollo acknowledges that Apollo's gift of prophecy&#xD;&#xA;&gt; first came to him from three bee maidens, usually but doubtfully&#xD;&#xA;&gt; identified with the Thriae, a trinity of pre-Hellenic Aegean bee&#xD;&#xA;&gt; goddesses. A series of identical embossed gold plaques were&#xD;&#xA;&gt; recovered at Camiros in Rhodes; they date from the archaic period&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Greek art in the seventh century, but the winged bee goddesses they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; depict must be far older.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;PS: I failed to see the &quot;arthropod&quot; in the question title. In that case, one (very) obvious example to add is [Arachne](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arachne).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia has also categories about [mythological spiders](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mythological_spiders) and [mythological arthropods](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mythological_arthropods). In this last one, for example, there's the [scorpion men](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorpion_man).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Scorpion men are featured in several Akkadian language myths,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; including the [*Enûma Elish*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/En%C3%BBma_Elish) and the Babylonian version of the [*Epic of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gilgamesh*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh). They were also known as *aqrabuamelu* or *girtablilu*. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Scorpion Men are described to have the head, torso, and arms of a man&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and the body of a scorpion." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16664" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4982" RevisionGUID="274a5ab3-f8b4-49be-9ee6-6c442c8e47b3" CreationDate="2018-06-12T12:36:28.437" UserId="4144" Comment="Introduced paragraphs to improve readability and tried to clean up the wording a bit" Text="Cerberus was known as the hound of Hades. This three headed dog was the offspring of Echidna and Typhon. He had three heads, a serpent tail, and snakes coming out of some of his body parts. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Cerberus was three headed but not all the time when written or talked about. He was related to many species that had many heads. Cerberus father had many snake heads who was called Typhon. Echidna, who was his mother, was half snake. The Cerberus was the brother of other multi-headed monsters that include Lernaean Hydra, Orthrus, and a two headed dog that guarded the cattle of Geryon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The other one was Chimera who had the three heads of a lion, goat, and a snake. Cerberus was the only rare multi-headed animal talked about that had a few too many heads. In Hesiods Theogonay the Cerberus had fifty heads. Pindar gave the Cerberus one hundred heads. Many writers later on would give the Cerberus three heads. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is one story by the poet Horace where the Cerberus has one dog head and a hundred snake heads. In Appollodorus the Cerberus has three heads with a bunch of snakes. In the story of the poet John Tzetzes the Cerberus had fifty heads of which three were of a dog and the rest of many beasts. In art from back then the Cerberus is often depicted with having only two heads or just one head. In 590 bc to 580 bc the Cerberus in the Corinthian cup of Argos had only one head. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When the Cerberus started showing to have three heads was in the mid sixth century BC on the Laconian cup. The Cerberus was usually depicted as having a snake or dog body with the heads and tails being of that sort. There were other cases were the Cerberus had three bodies that went with the three heads and had three tongues as well. In a Heracles story the Cerberus would vomit out bile which the poisonous aconite plant grew from. The vomiting started when the Cerberus was being taken out the underworld by Heracles. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On some accounts the Cerberus would have fire coming out his mouth or a foam of poison that would come out. They never would say what kind of breed of canine the Cerberus was, but if they can't refer to the Cerberus as a Hell Hound then it was a Hound. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Cerberus was made up of canine, lion, goat, and snake in many stories." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16665" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4982" RevisionGUID="274a5ab3-f8b4-49be-9ee6-6c442c8e47b3" CreationDate="2018-06-12T12:36:28.437" Comment="Proposed by 4144 approved by 2807, 2774 edit id of 1659" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16668" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="4962" RevisionGUID="a833dcaf-fe94-47f1-a841-3cda61c599e7" CreationDate="2018-06-12T22:34:45.110" UserId="4144" Comment="Fixed accidentally created tag" Text="|symbolism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16669" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4962" RevisionGUID="a833dcaf-fe94-47f1-a841-3cda61c599e7" CreationDate="2018-06-12T22:34:45.110" Comment="Proposed by 4144 approved by 2774, 967 edit id of 1660" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16671" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4991" RevisionGUID="ed88f1ad-d633-474f-81bb-048e782a90a4" CreationDate="2018-06-13T21:15:35.320" UserId="2892" Text="Here is some academic references:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Bearer of a fair offspring, name by which [Demeter][1] was invoked in the [Thesmophoria][2], [Ar.Th.299][3], Alciphr.2.4, cf.IG14.205 (Acrae); or her nurse, Ar. ap. Phot.; epith. of the Moon, Hymn.Mag.5.31; of the Earth, Apollod. ap. Phot.:—neut. pl., Καλλιγένεια θύειν offer sacrifice to Demeter K., Alciphr.3.39 (nisi leg. τῇ Κ.). &#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon ([καλλι-γένεια][4])&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here Καλλιγενεια is actually actually a name of Demeter, used to invoke her during the autumn festival.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The fair offspring referred to would be Persephone, daughter of Demeter, who goes to the underworld during winter, and whose return brings the spring.  Persephone is most fair because without her return, everything on earth dies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the Aristophanes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Silence! Silence! Pray to the Thesmophorae, Demeter and Cora;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Aristophanes, *[Thesmophoriazusae][3]*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Cora&quot; refers to Persephone's other name, Kore ([κόρη][5]) which means simply &quot;girl&quot;.  (Prior to her sacred marriage to Hades each year that hearkens winter, Kore resets to her maiden aspect with her rebirth in the spring.  Persephone is both maiden and crone, depending on the time of the year.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thesmophoria ([θεσμοφόρια][6]) &quot;Festival in honor of Demeter&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thesmophorion ([θεσμοφόριον][7]) &quot;Temple of Demeter&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demeter&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thesmophoria&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:abo:tlg,0019,008:299&amp;lang=original&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkallige%2Fneia&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dko%2Frh&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dqesmofo%2Fria&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dqesmofo%2Frion1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16672" PostHistoryTypeId="12" PostId="4991" RevisionGUID="3363b9e3-6726-4259-927a-680d7919a703" CreationDate="2018-06-13T21:16:11.493" UserId="2892" Comment="via Vote" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:2892,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;DukeZhou&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="16673" PostHistoryTypeId="13" PostId="4991" RevisionGUID="148c487d-3fba-4c3b-ad36-8a0f1613cb83" CreationDate="2018-06-13T21:17:04.030" UserId="2892" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:2892,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;DukeZhou&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="16674" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4991" RevisionGUID="d6853449-7e08-4d05-a4cb-dca1f2915635" CreationDate="2018-06-13T21:20:45.133" UserId="2892" Comment="added 120 characters in body" Text="Here is some academic references:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Bearer of a fair offspring, name by which [Demeter][1] was invoked in the [Thesmophoria][2], [Ar.Th.299][3], Alciphr.2.4, cf.IG14.205 (Acrae); or her nurse, Ar. ap. Phot.; epith. of the Moon, Hymn.Mag.5.31; of the Earth, Apollod. ap. Phot.:—neut. pl., Καλλιγένεια θύειν offer sacrifice to Demeter K., Alciphr.3.39 (nisi leg. τῇ Κ.). &#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon ([καλλι-γένεια][4])&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although Καλλιγενεια has been used to refer to a nursemaid serving Demeter, that usage smacks of poetic invention.  I find Καλλιγενεια as a name of Demeter (or an analog), used to invoke her during the autumn festival, much more credible as the original usage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The fair offspring referred to would be Persephone, daughter of Demeter, who goes to the underworld during winter, and whose return brings the spring.  Persephone is most fair because without her return, everything on earth dies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the Aristophanes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Silence! Silence! Pray to the Thesmophorae, Demeter and Cora; pray to Plutus, Calligenia, Curotrophus, the Earth, Hermes and the Graces, that all may happen for the best at this gathering, both for the greatest advantage of Athens and for our own personal happiness! May the award be given her who, by both deeds and words, has most deserved it from the Athenian people and from the women! Address these prayers to heaven and demand happiness for yourselves. Io Paean! Io Paean! Let us rejoice!&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Aristophanes, *[Thesmophoriazusae][3]*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Cora&quot; refers to Persephone's other name, Kore ([κόρη][5]) which means simply &quot;girl&quot;.  (Prior to her sacred marriage to Hades each year that hearkens winter, Kore resets to her maiden aspect with her rebirth in the spring.  Persephone is both maiden and crone, depending on the time of the year.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thesmophoria ([θεσμοφόρια][6]) &quot;Festival in honor of Demeter&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thesmophorion ([θεσμοφόριον][7]) &quot;Temple of Demeter&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demeter&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thesmophoria&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:abo:tlg,0019,008:299&amp;lang=original&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkallige%2Fneia&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dko%2Frh&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dqesmofo%2Fria&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dqesmofo%2Frion1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16675" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4991" RevisionGUID="db6dbf9b-eade-4703-94f7-7c35686678bf" CreationDate="2018-06-13T21:27:54.307" UserId="2892" Comment="added 120 characters in body" Text="Here is some academic references:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Bearer of a fair offspring, name by which [Demeter][1] was invoked in the [Thesmophoria][2], [Ar.Th.299][3], Alciphr.2.4, cf.IG14.205 (Acrae); or her nurse, Ar. ap. Phot.; epith. of the Moon, Hymn.Mag.5.31; of the Earth, Apollod. ap. Phot.:—neut. pl., Καλλιγένεια [θύειν][4] offer sacrifice to Demeter K., Alciphr.3.39 (nisi leg. τῇ Κ.). &#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon ([καλλι-γένεια][5])&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although Καλλιγενεια has been used to refer to a nursemaid serving Demeter, that usage smacks of poetic invention.  I find Καλλιγενεια as a name of Demeter (or an analog), used to invoke her during the autumn festival, much more credible as the original usage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The fair offspring referred to would be Persephone, daughter of Demeter, who goes to the underworld during winter, and whose return brings the spring.  Persephone is most fair because without her return, everything on earth dies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the Aristophanes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Silence! Silence! Pray to the Thesmophorae, Demeter and Cora; pray to Plutus, Calligenia, Curotrophus, the Earth, Hermes and the Graces, that all may happen for the best at this gathering, both for the greatest advantage of Athens and for our own personal happiness! May the award be given her who, by both deeds and words, has most deserved it from the Athenian people and from the women! Address these prayers to heaven and demand happiness for yourselves. Io Paean! Io Paean! Let us rejoice!&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Aristophanes, *[Thesmophoriazusae][3]*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here Calligenia definitely seems to be a separate entity, but the source is a comic play, and playwrights are known for &quot;innovations&quot; in myths.  Note that the *Thesmophorae* are dual, both Demeter and her daughter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*&quot;Cora&quot; refers to Persephone's other name, Kore ([κόρη][6]) which means simply &quot;girl&quot;.  Prior to her sacred marriage to Hades each year that hearkens winter, Kore resets to her maiden aspect with her rebirth in the spring.  Persephone is both maiden and crone, depending on the time of the year.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thesmophoria ([θεσμοφόρια][7]) &quot;Festival in honor of Demeter&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thesmophorion ([θεσμοφόριον][8]) &quot;Temple of Demeter&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demeter&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thesmophoria&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:abo:tlg,0019,008:299&amp;lang=original&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=qu%2Fein&amp;la=greek&amp;can=qu%2Fein0&amp;prior=*kallige/neia&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=kallige/neia&amp;i=1#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkallige%2Fneia&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dko%2Frh&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dqesmofo%2Fria&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dqesmofo%2Frion1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16676" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4992" RevisionGUID="fcd5c91d-95d3-4fed-9099-fe7e00fb85a6" CreationDate="2018-06-14T16:15:09.753" UserId="5134" Text="Was there a hell or place of suffering after death in Norse mythology and was it eternal what caused a person to go there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Secondly what does Norse mythology mean by oath breaking " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16677" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4992" RevisionGUID="fcd5c91d-95d3-4fed-9099-fe7e00fb85a6" CreationDate="2018-06-14T16:15:09.753" UserId="5134" Text="Norse mythology question" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16678" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4992" RevisionGUID="fcd5c91d-95d3-4fed-9099-fe7e00fb85a6" CreationDate="2018-06-14T16:15:09.753" UserId="5134" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16679" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4993" RevisionGUID="42dd0a95-fff5-46b9-bfc3-bd3d445f95ce" CreationDate="2018-06-14T23:29:30.197" UserId="4962" Text="&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Hel... is the most general name for the underworld where many of the dead dwell.&#xA;&#xA;That said, there were other realms for the dead (Valhalla, Folkvang, etc.).&#xA;&#xA;&gt; ... apart from the fact that Hel and Hell are both realms of the dead located beneath the ground, the two concepts have nothing in common.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; ...where one goes after death isn’t any kind of reward for moral behavior or pious belief, or punishment for immoral behavior or impious belief. &#xA;&#xA;&gt; The dead in Hel spend their time doing the same kinds of things that Viking Age men and women did: eating, drinking, fighting, sleeping, and so forth. It wasn’t a place of eternal bliss or torment as much as it was simply a continuation of life somewhere else.&#xA;&#xA;Quotes from &#xA;[Norse Mythology for Smart People][1].&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://norse-mythology.org/cosmology/the-nine-worlds/helheim/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16680" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4992" RevisionGUID="a48a128c-e9ca-472e-b78e-562ab2e6286e" CreationDate="2018-06-15T06:43:40.527" UserId="4962" Comment="Removed second question." Text="Was there a hell or place of suffering after death in Norse mythology and was it eternal what caused a person to go there." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16681" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4992" RevisionGUID="a48a128c-e9ca-472e-b78e-562ab2e6286e" CreationDate="2018-06-15T06:43:40.527" Comment="Proposed by 4962 approved by 1241, 183 edit id of 1661" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16682" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4992" RevisionGUID="6c48d249-4013-4dbe-bddc-08582ac28bd7" CreationDate="2018-06-15T09:46:12.857" UserId="2682" Comment="made the title more specific to the actual Question; &amp; fixed grammar" Text="Was there a hell or place of suffering after death in Norse mythology. If so, was it eternal? What caused a person to go there?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16683" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4992" RevisionGUID="6c48d249-4013-4dbe-bddc-08582ac28bd7" CreationDate="2018-06-15T09:46:12.857" UserId="2682" Comment="made the title more specific to the actual Question; &amp; fixed grammar" Text="Was there a hell or place of suffering after death in Norse mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16684" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4994" RevisionGUID="bce92c35-bb62-4551-97d6-e34a2ea6adfc" CreationDate="2018-06-15T21:27:46.613" UserId="2892" Text="*This is a quickie answer, pending robust answers by our Norse experts.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Helheimr][1] was where the common people went.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not a place of torture, unlike the Christian Hell, but more akin to the Greek Hades and other, neutral, pagan underworlds.  (In Hades, for instance, the spirits of dead presumably people just wander around forlorn in the darkness.  Not a great existence, but no demons poking them with pitchforks.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Warriors who die in battle get to go to Asgard, wither to Odin's hall [Valhalla][2], or Freya's field [Folkvangr][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.nordicnames.de/wiki/Helheimr&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valhalla&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%B3lkvangr" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16685" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3531" RevisionGUID="76a64097-6b1c-4a5b-b9b2-5389cbb98d68" CreationDate="2018-06-17T08:03:03.910" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="16686" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2321" RevisionGUID="a345cce5-194a-4d15-9c62-9328565c0e9b" CreationDate="2018-06-17T16:26:41.737" UserId="4390" Comment="spelling/form" Text="Dante spends thirteen cantos in [Malebolge][1], the eighth circle of Hell. This is a lot longer than he spends with any other circle. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why do the sinners in this circle get so much of his attention?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malebolge" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16687" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2321" RevisionGUID="a345cce5-194a-4d15-9c62-9328565c0e9b" CreationDate="2018-06-17T16:26:41.737" Comment="Proposed by 4390 approved by 1241, 2682 edit id of 1662" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16688" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4991" RevisionGUID="d5f7909d-1b1a-47b0-b2d5-d82d00f40f31" CreationDate="2018-06-18T18:33:59.297" UserId="2892" Comment="added 812 characters in body" Text="Here is some academic references:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Bearer of a fair offspring, name by which [Demeter][1] was invoked in the [Thesmophoria][2], [Ar.Th.299][3], Alciphr.2.4, cf.IG14.205 (Acrae); or her nurse, Ar. ap. Phot.; epith. of the Moon, Hymn.Mag.5.31; of the Earth, Apollod. ap. Phot.:—neut. pl., Καλλιγένεια [θύειν][4] offer sacrifice to Demeter K., Alciphr.3.39 (nisi leg. τῇ Κ.). &#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon ([καλλι-γένεια][5])&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although Καλλιγενεια has been used to refer to a nursemaid serving Demeter, that usage smacks of poetic invention.  I find Καλλιγενεια as a name of Demeter (or an analog), used to invoke her during the autumn festival, much more credible as the original usage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The fair offspring referred to would be Persephone, daughter of Demeter, who goes to the underworld during winter, and whose return brings the spring.  Persephone is most fair because without her return, everything on earth dies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the Aristophanes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Silence! Silence! Pray to the Thesmophorae, Demeter and Cora; pray to Plutus, Calligenia, Curotrophus, the Earth, Hermes and the Graces, that all may happen for the best at this gathering, both for the greatest advantage of Athens and for our own personal happiness! May the award be given her who, by both deeds and words, has most deserved it from the Athenian people and from the women! Address these prayers to heaven and demand happiness for yourselves. Io Paean! Io Paean! Let us rejoice!&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Aristophanes, *[Thesmophoriazusae][3]*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here Calligenia definitely seems to be a separate entity, but the source is a comic play, and playwrights are known for &quot;innovations&quot; in myths.  Note that the *Thesmophorae* are dual, both Demeter and her daughter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*&quot;Cora&quot; refers to Persephone's other name, Kore ([κόρη][6]) which means simply &quot;girl&quot;.  Prior to her sacred marriage to Hades each year that hearkens winter, Kore resets to her maiden aspect with her rebirth in the spring.  Persephone is both maiden and crone, depending on the time of the year.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second available fragment mentioning Kallegenia as a nurse maid of Demeter, as opposed to Demeter herself, comes from the 5th Century AD, ~800 years after Aristophanes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There also she left Kalligeneia, her own fond nurse [to care for Persephone], with her baskets, and all that cleverhand Pallas  gives to make womankind sweat over their wool-spinning.&quot; &lt;br&gt;Dionysiaca VI.140 [(English)][7] | [(Greek)][8]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The lexical entry for Kallegeneia lists a few other sources, such as [Alciphron][9], somewhere between Aristophanes and Nonnus, who seems to regards Kalligeneia as an epithet for Demeter. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thesmophoria ([θεσμοφόρια][10]) &quot;Festival in honor of Demeter&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thesmophorion ([θεσμοφόριον][11]) &quot;Temple of Demeter&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demeter&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thesmophoria&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:abo:tlg,0019,008:299&amp;lang=original&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=qu%2Fein&amp;la=greek&amp;can=qu%2Fein0&amp;prior=*kallige/neia&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=kallige/neia&amp;i=1#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkallige%2Fneia&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dko%2Frh&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/NonnusDionysiaca6.html&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0485%3Abook%3D6&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alciphron&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dqesmofo%2Fria&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dqesmofo%2Frion1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16689" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4991" RevisionGUID="63481889-1ee1-4545-be1d-b76b14a1c2ab" CreationDate="2018-06-18T19:51:25.450" UserId="2892" Comment="added 1178 characters in body" Text="Here is some academic references:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Bearer of a fair offspring, name by which [Demeter][1] was invoked in the [Thesmophoria][2], [Ar.Th.299][3], Alciphr.2.4, cf.IG14.205 (Acrae); or her nurse, Ar. ap. Phot.; epith. of the Moon, Hymn.Mag.5.31; of the Earth, Apollod. ap. Phot.:—neut. pl., Καλλιγένεια [θύειν][4] offer sacrifice to Demeter K., Alciphr.3.39 (nisi leg. τῇ Κ.). &#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon ([καλλι-γένεια][5])&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although Καλλιγενεια has been used to refer to a nursemaid serving Demeter, that usage smacks of poetic invention.  I find Καλλιγενεια as a name of Demeter (or an analog), used to invoke her during the autumn festival, much more credible as the original usage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The fair offspring referred to would be Persephone, daughter of Demeter, who goes to the underworld during winter, and whose return brings the spring.  Persephone is most fair because without her return, everything on earth dies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the Aristophanes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Silence! Silence! Pray to the Thesmophorae, Demeter and Cora; pray to Plutus, Calligenia, Curotrophus, the Earth, Hermes and the Graces, that all may happen for the best at this gathering, both for the greatest advantage of Athens and for our own personal happiness! May the award be given her who, by both deeds and words, has most deserved it from the Athenian people and from the women! Address these prayers to heaven and demand happiness for yourselves. Io Paean! Io Paean! Let us rejoice!&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Aristophanes, *[Thesmophoriazusae][3]*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here Calligenia definitely seems to be a separate entity, but the source is a comic play, and playwrights are known for &quot;innovations&quot; in myths.  Note that the *Thesmophorae* are dual, both Demeter and her daughter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*&quot;Cora&quot; refers to Persephone's other name, Kore ([κόρη][6]) which means simply &quot;girl&quot;.  Prior to her sacred marriage to Hades each year that hearkens winter, Kore resets to her maiden aspect with her rebirth in the spring.  Persephone is both maiden and crone, depending on the time of the year.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second available fragment mentioning Kallegenia as a nurse maid of Demeter, as opposed to Demeter herself, comes from the 5th Century AD, ~800 years after Aristophanes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There also she left Kalligeneia, her own fond nurse [to care for Persephone], with her baskets, and all that cleverhand Pallas  gives to make womankind sweat over their wool-spinning.&quot; &lt;br&gt;Dionysiaca VI.140 [(English)][7] | [(Greek)][8]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The lexical entry for Kallegeneia lists a few other sources, such as [Alciphron][9], somewhere between Aristophanes and Nonnus, who seems to regards Kalligeneia as an epithet for Demeter. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The main reason I regard Aristophanes' take to be unsatisfactory is the construction of the name Kalligeneia, and the meaning of &quot;bearer&quot; in the name.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The &quot;[γεν-][10]&quot; (*gen*) root in Greek means, in a general sense, origin, lineage, generation, birth, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is distinct from:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-  [φέρω][11] (*fero*), which is the general word for carry.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is in the sense of *fero* that a nursemaid carries an infant, but it is only the mother who [carries][12] in the sense of *gen-*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[γενεά][13] (*genea*): offspring &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[γενεῆθεν][14] (*genethen*): from birth, by descent &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[γενέτειρα][15] (*genetayra*): mother&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Iphigenia ([Ἰφιγένεια][16]) is an example of a name with the gen- root.  Although there are multiple proposed meanings (either &quot;born of strength&quot;, &quot;mothering a strong race&quot; or &quot;she who causes the birth of strong offspring&quot;,) all meaning relate to birth.   &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demeter&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thesmophoria&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:abo:tlg,0019,008:299&amp;lang=original&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=qu%2Fein&amp;la=greek&amp;can=qu%2Fein0&amp;prior=*kallige/neia&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=kallige/neia&amp;i=1#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkallige%2Fneia&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dko%2Frh&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/NonnusDionysiaca6.html&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0485%3Abook%3D6&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alciphron&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/resolveform?type=start&amp;lookup=gen&amp;lang=greek&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=fe%2Frw&amp;la=greek&amp;can=fe%2Frw0#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dgenea%2F&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dgeneh%3Dqen&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=gene%2Fteira&amp;la=greek&amp;can=gene%2Fteira0&amp;prior=*genesiw/n&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Di)fige%2Fneia%5E" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16690" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4991" RevisionGUID="2243d35f-7bca-42d8-bfc5-fc46f701342b" CreationDate="2018-06-18T20:17:45.923" UserId="2892" Comment="added 14 characters in body" Text="Here is some academic references:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Bearer of a fair offspring, name by which [Demeter][1] was invoked in the [Thesmophoria][2], [Ar.Th.299][3], Alciphr.2.4, cf.IG14.205 (Acrae); or her nurse, Ar. ap. Phot.; epith. of the Moon, Hymn.Mag.5.31; of the Earth, Apollod. ap. Phot.:—neut. pl., Καλλιγένεια [θύειν][4] offer sacrifice to Demeter K., Alciphr.3.39 (nisi leg. τῇ Κ.). &#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon ([καλλι-γένεια][5])&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although Καλλιγενεια has been used to refer to a nursemaid serving Demeter, that usage smacks of poetic invention.  I find Καλλιγενεια as a name of Demeter (or an analog), used to invoke her during the autumn festival, much more credible as the original usage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The fair offspring referred to would be Persephone, daughter of Demeter, who goes to the underworld during winter, and whose return brings the spring.  Persephone is most fair because without her return, everything on earth dies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the Aristophanes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Silence! Silence! Pray to the Thesmophorae, Demeter and Cora; pray to Plutus, Calligenia, Curotrophus, the Earth, Hermes and the Graces, that all may happen for the best at this gathering, both for the greatest advantage of Athens and for our own personal happiness! May the award be given her who, by both deeds and words, has most deserved it from the Athenian people and from the women! Address these prayers to heaven and demand happiness for yourselves. Io Paean! Io Paean! Let us rejoice!&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Aristophanes, *[Thesmophoriazusae][3]*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here Calligenia definitely seems to be a separate entity, but the source is a comic play, and playwrights are known for &quot;innovations&quot; in myths.  Note that the *Thesmophorae* are dual, both Demeter and her daughter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*&quot;Cora&quot; refers to Persephone's other name, Kore ([κόρη][6]) which means simply &quot;girl&quot;.  Prior to her sacred marriage to Hades each year that hearkens winter, Kore resets to her maiden aspect with her rebirth in the spring.  Persephone is both maiden and crone, depending on the time of the year.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second available fragment mentioning Kallegenia as a nurse maid of Demeter, as opposed to Demeter herself, comes from the 5th Century AD, ~800 years after Aristophanes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There also she left Kalligeneia, her own fond nurse [to care for Persephone], with her baskets, and all that cleverhand Pallas  gives to make womankind sweat over their wool-spinning.&quot; &lt;br&gt;Dionysiaca VI.140 [(English)][7] | [(Greek)][8]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The lexical entry for Kallegeneia lists a few other sources, such as [Alciphron][9], somewhere between Aristophanes and Nonnus, who seems to regards Kalligeneia as an epithet for Demeter. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The main reason I regard Aristophanes' take to be unsatisfactory is the construction of the name Kalligeneia, and the meaning of &quot;bearer&quot; in the name:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The &quot;[γεν-][10]&quot; (*gen*) root in means, in a general sense, origin, lineage, generation, birth, etc.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is distinct from:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-  [φέρω][11] (*fero*), which is the general word for carry.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is in the sense of *fero* that a nursemaid carries an infant, but it is only the mother who [carries][12] in the sense of *gen-*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[γενεά][13] (*genea*): offspring &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[γενεῆθεν][14] (*genethen*): from birth, by descent &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[γενέτειρα][15] (*genetayra*): mother&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Iphigenia ([Ἰφιγένεια][16]) is an example of a name with the gen- root.  Although there are multiple proposed meanings (either &quot;born of strength&quot;, &quot;mothering a strong race&quot; or &quot;she who causes the birth of strong offspring&quot;,) all meanings relate to birth or parentage.   &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demeter&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thesmophoria&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:abo:tlg,0019,008:299&amp;lang=original&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=qu%2Fein&amp;la=greek&amp;can=qu%2Fein0&amp;prior=*kallige/neia&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=kallige/neia&amp;i=1#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkallige%2Fneia&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dko%2Frh&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/NonnusDionysiaca6.html&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0485%3Abook%3D6&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alciphron&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/resolveform?type=start&amp;lookup=gen&amp;lang=greek&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=fe%2Frw&amp;la=greek&amp;can=fe%2Frw0#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dgenea%2F&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dgeneh%3Dqen&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=gene%2Fteira&amp;la=greek&amp;can=gene%2Fteira0&amp;prior=*genesiw/n&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Di)fige%2Fneia%5E" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16691" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4995" RevisionGUID="78eb7c43-bb8d-40b2-98dc-f388fa04a909" CreationDate="2018-06-19T07:13:11.180" UserId="3373" Text="According to Plutarch, whether cacodaimones (willing evil) of agathodaimones (willing good) - yes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 25. Better, therefore, is the view of those who take the stories about typhoon, Osiris and Isis to be the experiences neither of gods nor of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; men, but of great daemons. These are said by Plato, Pythagoras,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Xenocrates and Chrysippus, following the early theologians, to be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stronger than men and in power to surpass greatly our nature, although&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they do not posses the divine element in a pure and unadulterated&#xD;&#xA;&gt; form, but joined in one with the nature of the soul and the perception&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the body. This perception is susceptible to pleasure and pain and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to whatever experiences are inherent in change, experiences which&#xD;&#xA;&gt; disturb some people more than others; for daemon like men, vary in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; virtue and vice.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The noble and good daemons again are called by Hesiod ‘holy daemons’,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ‘guardians of men’&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 26. Empedocles say that the daemons also pay the penalty for their mistakes and failings:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;     The ether’s might pursues them to the sea,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;     The sea spews them to land and land drives them&#xD;&#xA;&gt;     To rays of the tireless sun, and he in turn&#xD;&#xA;&gt;     Hurls them to whirls of ether; one power takes&#xD;&#xA;&gt;     Them from another; hate they arouse in all,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;     Until, thus punished and purified, they assume again the place and order assigned to them by nature&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; She herself and Osiris were transformed through their virtue from good&#xD;&#xA;&gt; deamons into gods, just as later Heracles and Dionysus were.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Source: Griffiths, John Gwyn, and Plutarchus. 1970. Plutarch's De Iside et Osiride. Cambridge: Univ. of Wales Press.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover, the hierarchy of Gods, demons, angels, heroes and humans was different in pagan times, check out Iamblichus the Theurgist:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  1. Hypercosmic Gods &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  2. Liberated Gods &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  3. Encosmic Gods/Celestial Archons&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  4. Archangels &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  5. Angels&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  6. Daimons &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  7. Sub-Lunar Gods/Archons &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  8. Heroes  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  9. Purified Souls&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  11. Mortals&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Source: Kupperman, Jeffrey S. 2014. Living theurgy: a course in Iamblichus' philosophy, theology and theurgy.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;based on&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;     Iamblichus, Emma C. Clarke, John M. Dillon, and Jackson P. Hershbell 2004. Iamblichus, De mysteriis. Leiden: Brill." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16695" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4991" RevisionGUID="dfb2428b-ad15-4bc4-b1d8-e899064e4aa2" CreationDate="2018-06-19T20:33:48.783" UserId="2892" Comment="added 246 characters in body" Text="Here is some academic references:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Bearer of a fair offspring, name by which [Demeter][1] was invoked in the [Thesmophoria][2], [Ar.Th.299][3], Alciphr.2.4, cf.IG14.205 (Acrae); or her nurse, Ar. ap. Phot.; epith. of the Moon, Hymn.Mag.5.31; of the Earth, Apollod. ap. Phot.:—neut. pl., Καλλιγένεια [θύειν][4] offer sacrifice to Demeter K., Alciphr.3.39 (nisi leg. τῇ Κ.). &#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon ([καλλι-γένεια][5])&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although Καλλιγενεια has been used to refer to a nursemaid serving Demeter, that usage smacks of poetic invention.  I find Καλλιγενεια as a name of Demeter (or an analog), used to invoke her during the autumn festival, much more credible as the original usage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The fair offspring referred to would be Persephone, daughter of Demeter, who goes to the underworld during winter, and whose return brings the spring.  Persephone is most fair because without her return, everything on earth dies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the Aristophanes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Silence! Silence! Pray to the Thesmophorae, Demeter and Cora; pray to Plutus, Calligenia, Curotrophus, the Earth, Hermes and the Graces, that all may happen for the best at this gathering, both for the greatest advantage of Athens and for our own personal happiness! May the award be given her who, by both deeds and words, has most deserved it from the Athenian people and from the women! Address these prayers to heaven and demand happiness for yourselves. Io Paean! Io Paean! Let us rejoice!&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Aristophanes, *[Thesmophoriazusae][3]*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here Calligenia definitely seems to be a separate entity, but the source is a comic play, and playwrights are known for &quot;innovations&quot; in myths.  Note that the *Thesmophorae* are dual, both Demeter and her daughter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*&quot;Cora&quot; refers to Persephone's other name, Kore ([κόρη][6]) which means simply &quot;girl&quot;.  Prior to her sacred marriage to Hades each year that hearkens winter, Kore resets to her maiden aspect with her rebirth in the spring.  Persephone is both maiden and crone, depending on the time of the year.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second available fragment mentioning Kallegenia as a nurse maid of Demeter, as opposed to Demeter herself, comes from the 5th Century AD, ~800 years after Aristophanes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There also she left Kalligeneia, her own fond nurse [to care for Persephone], with her baskets, and all that cleverhand Pallas  gives to make womankind sweat over their wool-spinning.&quot; &lt;br&gt;Dionysiaca VI.140 [(English)][7] | [(Greek)][8]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The lexical entry for Kallegeneia lists a few other sources, such as [Alciphron][9], somewhere between Aristophanes and Nonnus, who seems to regards Kalligeneia as an epithet for Demeter. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The main reason I regard Aristophanes' take to be unsatisfactory is the construction of the name Kalligeneia, and the meaning of &quot;bearer&quot; in the name:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The &quot;[γεν-][10]&quot; (*[gen][11]*) root in means, in a general sense, [geneology][12], [generation][13], etc.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is distinct from:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-  [φέρω][14] (*fero*), which is the general word for carry.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is in the sense of *fero* that a nursemaid carries an infant, but it is only the mother who [carries][15] in the sense of *gen-*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[γενεά][16] (*genea*): offspring &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[γενεῆθεν][17] (*genethen*): from birth, by descent &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[γενέτειρα][18] (*genetayra*): mother&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Iphigenia ([Ἰφιγένεια][19]) is an example of a name with the gen- root.  Although there are multiple proposed meanings (either &quot;born of strength&quot;, &quot;mothering a strong race&quot; or &quot;she who causes the birth of strong offspring&quot;,) all meanings relate to birth or parentage.   &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demeter&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thesmophoria&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:abo:tlg,0019,008:299&amp;lang=original&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=qu%2Fein&amp;la=greek&amp;can=qu%2Fein0&amp;prior=*kallige/neia&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=kallige/neia&amp;i=1#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkallige%2Fneia&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dko%2Frh&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/NonnusDionysiaca6.html&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0485%3Abook%3D6&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alciphron&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/resolveform?type=start&amp;lookup=gen&amp;lang=greek&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://www.etymonline.com/word/*gene-?ref=etymonline_crossreference&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://www.etymonline.com/word/genealogy?ref=etymonline_crossreference&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://www.etymonline.com/word/generation?ref=etymonline_crossreference&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=fe%2Frw&amp;la=greek&amp;can=fe%2Frw0#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dgenea%2F&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dgeneh%3Dqen&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=gene%2Fteira&amp;la=greek&amp;can=gene%2Fteira0&amp;prior=*genesiw/n&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Di)fige%2Fneia%5E" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16698" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4583" RevisionGUID="72f1fd90-e9b3-491d-84a7-fe8936896551" CreationDate="2018-06-20T14:53:09.667" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="16699" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4997" RevisionGUID="03013801-6f0a-4937-8e5e-e664869fe91e" CreationDate="2018-06-20T15:51:25.147" UserId="5013" Text="Check out: Fairy Legends and Traditions of the South of Ireland by Thomas Crofton Croker&#xD;&#xA;[http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/39752][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Brothers Grimm translated Crokers Fairy Legends][2] and provided a summary in the beginning of their translation. Below is what they said, loosely translated and paraphrased.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Fairie always live in large groups, never alone or in pairs. Invisible to humans.Their houses are in rock cracks, caves and old giant hills. They love music. They celebrate under roomy mushrooms.They disappear at first light. They love to play ball, which they play with great eagerness, someimes they come into dispute when playing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is of course much more.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See also: Lays and Legends of the North of Ireland by Cruck-a-leaghan , Slieve Gallion&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[https://archive.org/details/laysandlegendsn00gallgoog][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/39752&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.com/books?id=PB39g_hUDIgC&amp;pg=PA9&amp;dq=irische%20elfen&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwi9x4edy9vaAhWF7IMKHX8qAtQQ6AEILTAB#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://%20https://archive.org/details/laysandlegendsn00gallgoog" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16700" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="4992" RevisionGUID="f5ceadc0-f8ce-43f4-be74-7bc0cd875d77" CreationDate="2018-06-21T21:07:03.980" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|underworld|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16701" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="4998" RevisionGUID="05d78b73-6379-4147-beb8-97e3b0cd76f3" CreationDate="2018-06-21T21:14:40.540" UserId="4271" Text="I remember reading in the Odyssey about a bard retelling the story of Odysseus and Achilles having a fight. It had Odysseus put his head down in tears as the bard sang the story. But it didn't say anything of the fight and I don't recall reading it in the Iliad.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When did this fight happen and what was it about?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16702" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="4998" RevisionGUID="05d78b73-6379-4147-beb8-97e3b0cd76f3" CreationDate="2018-06-21T21:14:40.540" UserId="4271" Text="What is the fight between Odysseus and Achilles?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16703" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="4998" RevisionGUID="05d78b73-6379-4147-beb8-97e3b0cd76f3" CreationDate="2018-06-21T21:14:40.540" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|odyssey|iliad|achilles|odysseus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16707" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4995" RevisionGUID="742207f6-630f-4563-b791-455ebef9b89e" CreationDate="2018-06-23T04:24:56.273" UserId="3373" Comment="added 320 characters in body" Text="In the Chrisian scope of affairs, if you don't deem Origen to be a &quot;heretic&quot; - yes- :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Schmidt-Biggemann, Wilhelm. 2011. Philosophia perennis: historical&#xD;&#xA;&gt; outlines of Western spirituality in ancient, medieval and early modern&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thought. Dordrecht: Springer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Plutarch, whether cacodaimones (willing evil) of agathodaimones (willing good) - yes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 25. Better, therefore, is the view of those who take the stories about typhoon, Osiris and Isis to be the experiences neither of gods nor of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; men, but of great daemons. These are said by Plato, Pythagoras,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Xenocrates and Chrysippus, following the early theologians, to be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stronger than men and in power to surpass greatly our nature, although&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they do not posses the divine element in a pure and unadulterated&#xD;&#xA;&gt; form, but joined in one with the nature of the soul and the perception&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the body. This perception is susceptible to pleasure and pain and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to whatever experiences are inherent in change, experiences which&#xD;&#xA;&gt; disturb some people more than others; for daemon like men, vary in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; virtue and vice.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The noble and good daemons again are called by Hesiod ‘holy daemons’,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ‘guardians of men’&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 26. Empedocles say that the daemons also pay the penalty for their mistakes and failings:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;     The ether’s might pursues them to the sea,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;     The sea spews them to land and land drives them&#xD;&#xA;&gt;     To rays of the tireless sun, and he in turn&#xD;&#xA;&gt;     Hurls them to whirls of ether; one power takes&#xD;&#xA;&gt;     Them from another; hate they arouse in all,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;     Until, thus punished and purified, they assume again the place and order assigned to them by nature&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; She herself and Osiris were transformed through their virtue from good&#xD;&#xA;&gt; deamons into gods, just as later Heracles and Dionysus were.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Source: Griffiths, John Gwyn, and Plutarchus. 1970. Plutarch's De Iside et Osiride. Cambridge: Univ. of Wales Press.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover, the hierarchy of Gods, demons, angels, heroes and humans was different in pagan times, check out Iamblichus the Theurgist:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  1. Hypercosmic Gods &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  2. Liberated Gods &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  3. Encosmic Gods/Celestial Archons&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  4. Archangels &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  5. Angels&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  6. Daimons &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  7. Sub-Lunar Gods/Archons &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  8. Heroes  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  9. Purified Souls&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  11. Mortals&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Source: Kupperman, Jeffrey S. 2014. Living theurgy: a course in Iamblichus' philosophy, theology and theurgy.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;based on&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;     Iamblichus, Emma C. Clarke, John M. Dillon, and Jackson P. Hershbell 2004. Iamblichus, De mysteriis. Leiden: Brill.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/rIwLy.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16708" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5000" RevisionGUID="d8fa6e68-1f09-487c-8a35-d5da0d2a601f" CreationDate="2018-06-23T07:35:47.120" UserId="3373" Text="Any form of speculation about the Slavic mythology is based on reconstruction. There are absolutely no written records, apart from foreign ones, or some descriptions of the opponents of these beliefs (Christian opponents) describing the Deities et al. Some were retained in folklore, usually as names of tribes of various spirits, some good, some malevolent. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There were various attemps at reconstruction, creating quite interesting compendia, but these are all modern attempts, just like 'Kalevala'  - it was compiled in the 19th century in Finland, and is the basis of belief of some neo-pagan groups, but there are no 'ancient records' of the 'Kalevalish' belief-system and practice. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There were several attempts at compiling data from various territories of Slavic people to create compendia of myth and worship (Czesław Białczyński, 'Księga Tura', for example), and perhaps there are of meaning to modern neo-pagan groups. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is certain, there were plenty 'local tribe' Deities, for example Swarożyc/Radgost as an Oboritian tribe deity, whether he was worshipped in different territories it is hard to say. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We may speculate that Triglav was to Slavs what Volknut was to the Vikings. Calling Triglav the 'Odin/Woden' of the Slavs would not be a far-fetched scenario. If Triglav means 'Three-headed one' it might be a lunar God, the the waxing, waning, full-moon etc. It reminds of Hekate, and the motif of 'three white rabbits' chasing each other in Masonic and Church art. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perun was the god of lightnings, similar to Zeus amongst Greeks, I would like to classify this god as Jupiterian, but Slavs did not have, as I believe, any form of advanced astronomy like the Graeco-Roman civilization. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for Dazhbog he was a Solar Deity, thus similar to Helios, Hors(Chors) was his other name. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wołos (Veles) was the god of cattle and likely underworld, as was Mokosza (like Hel in the Scandinavian mythology) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Stribog was likely the god of ice and wind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Answering your question:** The 'pantheons' were tribal, there was no 'unified slavic mythology', yet there were Deities more or less extensively known throughout the tribal world of the Slavic peoples. One of the most popular one was a shrine to Sventhevith, were they kept a sacred white steed for divination, localized in modern Germany, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, Rugen, West of the town of Sassnitz. &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16709" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5000" RevisionGUID="8ca3c93e-6f87-4285-afca-d0bebd109d14" CreationDate="2018-06-23T07:41:54.330" UserId="3373" Comment="added 169 characters in body" Text="Any form of speculation onthe Slavic mythology is based on reconstruction. There are absolutely no written records, apart from foreign ones, or some descriptions of the opponents of these beliefs (Christian opponents) describing the Deities et al. Some were retained in folklore, usually as names of tribes of various spirits/daimons etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There were various attemps at reconstruction, creating quite interesting compendia, but these are all modern attempts, just like 'Kalevala'  - it was compiled in the 19th century in Finland, and is the basis of belief of some neo-pagan groups, but there are no 'ancient records' of the 'Kalevalish' belief-system and practice. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There were several attempts at compiling data from various territories of Slavic people to create compendia of myth and worship (Czesław Białczyński, 'Księga Tura', for example), and perhaps there are of meaning to modern neo-pagan groups. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is certain is that there were plenty 'local tribe' Deities, for example Swarożyc/Radgost as an Oboritian tribe deity, whether he was worshipped in different territories it is hard to say. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We may speculate that Triglav was to Slavs what Volknut was to the Vikings. Calling Triglav the 'Odin/Woden' of the Slavs would not be a far-fetched scenario, given that Scandinavian and Celtic tribes were present in territory of the Slavs and inter-marriages were not uncommon. If Triglav means 'Three-headed one' it might be a lunar God, the the waxing, waning, full-moon etc. It reminds of Hekate, and the motif of 'three white rabbits' chasing each other in Masonic and Church art. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perun was the god of lightnings, similar to Zeus amongst Greeks, I would like to classify this god as Jupiterian, but Slavs did not have, as I believe, any form of advanced astronomy like the Graeco-Roman civilization. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for Dazhbog he was a Solar Deity, thus similar to Helios, Hors(Chors) was his other name. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wołos (Veles) was the god of cattle and likely the underworld, as was Mokosza (like Hel in the Scandinavian mythology) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Stribog was likely the god of ice and wind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sources: Aleksander Bruckner &quot;Mitologia słowiańska&quot;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Answering your question:** The 'pantheons' were tribal, there was no 'unified slavic mythology', yet there were Deities more or less extensively known throughout the tribal world of the Slavic peoples. One of the most popular one was a shrine to Sventhevith, were they kept a sacred white steed for divination, localized in modern Germany, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, Rugen, West of the town of Sassnitz. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To sum up, I would like to cite Plutarch *De Iside et Osiride*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;67. For God is not something without mind or soul, nor is he subservient to men. Consequently we have regarded as gods the beings who use he products of nature and bestow them upon us, providing us with them constantly and sufficiently; nor do we regard the gods as different among different peoples not as barbarian and Greek and as southern and northern. But just as the sun, moon, heaven, earth and sea are common to all, though they are given various names by the varying peoples, so it is with the one reason (logos) which orders these things and the one providence which has charge of them, and the assistant powers which are assigned to everything: they are given different honors and modes of address among different peoples according to custom, and they use hallowed symbols, some of which are obscure and others clearer, directing the thought towards the divine, though not without danger. For some, erring completely, have slipped into superstition, and other, shunning it like a marsh, have unwittingly fallen in turn over the precipice of atheism.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16710" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5001" RevisionGUID="22b6a746-b92c-4970-9389-02c09ada81b5" CreationDate="2018-06-23T22:00:16.447" UserId="5155" Text="Is this the same as Mother Nature?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And here are some examples.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Don’t Mess with Mother Weather By Vicki Lathom][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Just because...][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://newsfromthebow.wordpress.com/2012/01/01/dont-mess-with-mother-weather-by-vicki-lathom/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://elengrey.com/2008/07/31/just-because/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16711" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5001" RevisionGUID="22b6a746-b92c-4970-9389-02c09ada81b5" CreationDate="2018-06-23T22:00:16.447" UserId="5155" Text="Who is Mother Weather, to which some people refer in their essays or posts?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16712" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5001" RevisionGUID="22b6a746-b92c-4970-9389-02c09ada81b5" CreationDate="2018-06-23T22:00:16.447" UserId="5155" Text="|goddesses|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16722" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4994" RevisionGUID="5185e969-e5bb-49c2-9845-1f387a581a5c" CreationDate="2018-06-25T17:51:40.493" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 76 characters in body" Text="- [Helheimr][1] was where the common people went.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not a place of torture, unlike the Christian Hell, but more akin to the Greek Hades and other, neutral, pagan underworlds.  (In Hades, for instance, the spirits of dead presumably people just wander around forlorn in the darkness.  Not a great existence, but no demons poking them with pitchforks.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Warriors who die in battle get to go to Asgard, wither to Odin's hall [Valhalla][2], or Freya's field [Folkvangr][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.nordicnames.de/wiki/Helheimr&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valhalla&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%B3lkvangr" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16723" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4994" RevisionGUID="1cd2342d-a248-4850-8a47-c1fb533fd2ff" CreationDate="2018-06-25T18:05:11.330" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 76 characters in body" Text="- [Helheimr][1] was where the common people went.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not a place of torture, unlike the Christian Hell, but more akin to the Greek Hades and other, neutral, pagan underworlds.  (In Hades, for instance, the spirits of dead presumably people just wander around forlorn in the darkness.  Not a great existence, but no demons poking them with pitchforks.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is at least one exception regarding Baldr and Nanna [See solsdottir's comment, which also opens speculation on a better condition of the dead in Hel prior to Christianity.]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hermod rode on till he came to Hel's gate. He alighted from his horse, drew the girths tighter,&#xD;&#xA;remounted him, claped the spurs into him, and the horse leaped over the gate with so much force that he&#xD;&#xA;never touched it. Thereupon Hermod proceeded to the hall and alighted from his steed. He went in, and saw&#xD;&#xA;there sitting on the foremost seat his brother Balder. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hermod arose, and Balder accompanied him out of the hall. He took the&#xD;&#xA;ring Draupner and sent it as a keepsake to Odin. Nanna sent Frigg a kerchief and other gifts, and to Fulla she&#xD;&#xA;sent a ring. Thereupon Hermod rode back and came to Asgard, where he reported the tidings he had seen and&#xD;&#xA;heard. &#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Prose Edda, [Chapter 15 &quot;The Death of Balder&quot;][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Warriors who die in battle get to go to Asgard, either to Odin's hall [Valhalla][3], or Freya's field [Folkvangr][4].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.nordicnames.de/wiki/Helheimr&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://is.cuni.cz/studium/predmety/index.php?do=download&amp;did=62028&amp;kod=ARL100252&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valhalla&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%B3lkvangr" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16724" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4994" RevisionGUID="efc9e8b1-be60-4813-93f7-438af3bc43ab" CreationDate="2018-06-25T18:10:40.557" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 76 characters in body" Text="- [Helheimr][1] was where the common people went.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not a place of torture, unlike the Christian Hell, but more akin to the Greek Hades and other, neutral, pagan underworlds.  (In Hades, for instance, the spirits of dead presumably people just wander around forlorn in the darkness.  Not a great existence, but no demons poking them with pitchforks.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is at least one exception regarding Baldr and Nanna [See solsdottir's comment:]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hermod rode on till he came to Hel's gate. He alighted from his horse, drew the girths tighter,&#xD;&#xA;remounted him, claped the spurs into him, and the horse leaped over the gate with so much force that he&#xD;&#xA;never touched it. Thereupon Hermod proceeded to the hall and alighted from his steed. He went in, and saw&#xD;&#xA;there sitting on the foremost seat his brother Balder. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hermod arose, and Balder accompanied him out of the hall. He took the&#xD;&#xA;ring Draupner and sent it as a keepsake to Odin. Nanna sent Frigg a kerchief and other gifts, and to Fulla she sent a ring. Thereupon Hermod rode back and came to Asgard, where he reported the tidings he had seen and&#xD;&#xA;heard. &#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Prose Edda, [Chapter 15 &quot;The Death of Balder&quot;][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nanna's ability to send gifts back to Asgard implies honored status and material comfort in Hel. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Warriors who die in battle get to go to Asgard, either to Odin's hall [Valhalla][3], or Freya's field [Folkvangr][4].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.nordicnames.de/wiki/Helheimr&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://is.cuni.cz/studium/predmety/index.php?do=download&amp;did=62028&amp;kod=ARL100252&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valhalla&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%B3lkvangr" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16725" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4994" RevisionGUID="b574525f-0666-4468-9c3d-afc5889fb18e" CreationDate="2018-06-25T18:19:45.777" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 76 characters in body" Text="- [Helheimr][1] was where the common people went.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not a place of torture, unlike the Christian Hell, but more akin to the Greek Hades and other, neutral, pagan underworlds.  (In Hades, for instance, the spirits of dead presumably people just wander around forlorn in the darkness.  Not a great existence, but no demons poking them with pitchforks.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is at least one exception regarding Baldr and Nanna [See solsdottir's comment:]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hermod rode on till he came to Hel's gate. He alighted from his horse, drew the girths tighter,&#xD;&#xA;remounted him, claped the spurs into him, and the horse leaped over the gate with so much force that he&#xD;&#xA;never touched it. Thereupon Hermod proceeded to the hall and alighted from his steed. He went in, and saw&#xD;&#xA;there sitting on the foremost seat his brother Balder. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hermod arose, and Balder accompanied him out of the hall. He took the&#xD;&#xA;ring Draupner and sent it as a keepsake to Odin. Nanna sent Frigg a kerchief and other gifts, and to Fulla she sent a ring. Thereupon Hermod rode back and came to Asgard, where he reported the tidings he had seen and&#xD;&#xA;heard. &#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Prose Edda, [Chapter 15 &quot;The Death of Balder&quot;][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nanna's ability to send gifts back to Asgard implies honored status and material comfort in Hel. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*It should be noted that the gloomy existence in Hel proposed by Snorri and Saxo Grammaticus were post Christian, and the Christian conception of the underworld may have influenced them.  (There seems to have been a bit of a balancing act going on in terms of presenting the earlier, pagan mythology in a manner acceptable in the new era.)  It's possible the common people just lived a continuation of their lives in Hel until Ragnarok.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Warriors who die in battle get to go to Asgard, either to Odin's hall [Valhalla][3], or Freya's field [Folkvangr][4].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.nordicnames.de/wiki/Helheimr&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://is.cuni.cz/studium/predmety/index.php?do=download&amp;did=62028&amp;kod=ARL100252&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valhalla&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%B3lkvangr" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16726" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5004" RevisionGUID="27c7157a-1dd1-4e7c-b976-5b98e73a6c34" CreationDate="2018-06-25T20:52:51.740" UserId="1315" Text="I found a good answer in Brazilian Wikipedia and it matches with other sources, here is a piece:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;The first living being that was formed in the primeval chaos, called Ginungagap, was a giant of monumental size, called Ymir. When she fell asleep for the first time, a daughter and a giant son grew from their armpits, while their two feet copulated, being born of them a monster with six heads. Supposedly, these three beings gave rise to the race of the hrímþursar (giants of the rhymes or icy giants), that populated Niflheim, the world of the mist, the cold and the ice.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jotun" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16727" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4733" RevisionGUID="7f42f19c-6105-49c9-9f11-ce7aa5ef2cce" CreationDate="2018-06-25T22:50:08.657" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="16729" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5005" RevisionGUID="d79a958f-5e14-4041-b0de-d67fd453254c" CreationDate="2018-06-26T18:19:24.927" UserId="3307" Text="Dufieux's [*Nature et virginité* p. 415][1] notes one pre-Christian culture that respected perpetual virginity:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Dans la Germanie et dans les Gaules, il y avait des druidesses vouées à une virginité perpétuelle.*&lt;br&gt;[In Germany and in the Gauls, there were druidesses vowed to perpetual virginity.]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What about their mythology made them vow themselves to perpetual virginity?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=g0aS0ZXmA_8C&amp;pg=PA415" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16730" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5005" RevisionGUID="d79a958f-5e14-4041-b0de-d67fd453254c" CreationDate="2018-06-26T18:19:24.927" UserId="3307" Text="Why did druidesses vow perpetual virginity?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16731" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5005" RevisionGUID="d79a958f-5e14-4041-b0de-d67fd453254c" CreationDate="2018-06-26T18:19:24.927" UserId="3307" Text="|celtic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16732" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4813" RevisionGUID="483d0664-12a5-445e-830a-44ae075299ee" CreationDate="2018-06-26T18:51:37.567" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="16735" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5007" RevisionGUID="645b203c-3619-45b8-9842-cbc7f86b5e97" CreationDate="2018-06-28T10:30:18.043" UserDisplayName="user5165" Text="It seems that Odin chooses who dies while Freya gets first pick. But this has doesn't mean Odin chooses who comes to his hall. &#xD;&#xA;If he were to choose the best, then Freya would take half. If he were to do the opposite, he would not gain anything from it.&#xD;&#xA;Maybe it was a sign of goodwill between the Aesir and Vanir (Freya is a Vanir)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16737" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4820" RevisionGUID="4b082366-90fd-45e9-ac8d-96b3e247de2a" CreationDate="2018-06-28T23:57:04.323" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="16741" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3227" RevisionGUID="e8dffc56-0c74-42cc-80d8-e3f402d62640" CreationDate="2018-06-30T13:59:07.397" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="16742" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5009" RevisionGUID="dcc2324a-3b36-4b30-be68-c2fed4ecf12a" CreationDate="2018-07-01T05:16:13.443" UserId="5174" Text="Logi means, as pointed out above, fire, so that is explained. Loki and Uthgarda Loki are, however, more open to debate.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a theory these days that when Snorri Sturlusson wrote the mythology down he, due to his own Christian beliefs needed a Satan-figure and that role was given to Loki. This explains why he went from being on the side of the Aesir to very quickly turning on them and finally siding with their mortal enemies in Ragnarokk. Some have theorized that the more extreme actions allocated to Loki in the Edda were actually done by Uthgarda Loki as he's obviously also a skilled trickster and deceiver and not a friend to the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whether this was done on purpose by Snorri, as a means to turn Loki into his Satan-figure, or if it was a legitimate mistake is another debate, but I do find this to be quite a compelling theory." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16743" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5010" RevisionGUID="56a2c585-fa4d-48ee-9a65-0517c8a20fdf" CreationDate="2018-07-01T06:21:00.043" UserId="5172" Text="I read about this for the first time in &quot;[La ultima bruja][1]&quot; (2017), a book about witches. In this book, there's a chapter in which a girl has to have sexual relationships with a Wolf God so He grants her power to become a witch.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've seen this idea represented in the shows &quot;[The Magicians][2]&quot; and &quot;[American Gods][3]&quot; as well. In the first show, two characters get extra powers by drinking a God's &quot;seed&quot; and by having sex with another one. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Assuming that these works are based on the same &quot;origin&quot; or reference, is there some kind of &quot;official&quot; reference for this, some kind of &quot;de facto&quot; example in which a god/goddess grants power to another mortal or being by having sex with them?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/33979821-la-ltima-bruja?ac=1&amp;from_search=true&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.syfy.com/themagicians&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1898069/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16744" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5010" RevisionGUID="56a2c585-fa4d-48ee-9a65-0517c8a20fdf" CreationDate="2018-07-01T06:21:00.043" UserId="5172" Text="What is the origin, fictional or historical, of the idea that having sex with a god grants power?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16745" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5010" RevisionGUID="56a2c585-fa4d-48ee-9a65-0517c8a20fdf" CreationDate="2018-07-01T06:21:00.043" UserId="5172" Text="|origins|demi-gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16746" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5010" RevisionGUID="92548b1f-82f7-4c0c-aacd-c5858f178306" CreationDate="2018-07-01T06:36:26.093" UserId="5172" Comment="change on the title to clarify" Text="What is the origin, mythical or historical, of the idea that having sex with a god grants power?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16747" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4669" RevisionGUID="f6303451-7c2f-4087-a55d-efa148634b01" CreationDate="2018-07-01T21:59:28.343" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="16751" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5010" RevisionGUID="3b386582-e1a8-45bb-9c2a-c02313c462a6" CreationDate="2018-07-05T18:59:33.273" UserId="2892" Comment="edited tags" Text="|origins|demi-gods|sex-magic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16752" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5012" RevisionGUID="c8eea369-70b4-4503-8679-1f04e427bd27" CreationDate="2018-07-05T19:01:12.330" UserId="2892" Text="&gt; **Sex magic** (sometimes spelled sex magick) is any type of sexual activity used in magical, ritualistic or otherwise religious and spiritual pursuits. One practice of sex magic is using the energy of sexual arousal or orgasm with visualization of a desired result. A premise posited by sex magicians is the concept that sexual energy is a potent force that can be harnessed to transcend one's normally perceived reality.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Sex magic (wiki)][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_magic" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16753" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5012" RevisionGUID="c8eea369-70b4-4503-8679-1f04e427bd27" CreationDate="2018-07-05T19:01:12.330" UserId="2892" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16754" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5013" RevisionGUID="84667468-69c7-4277-aeb9-95df6f64b09d" CreationDate="2018-07-05T19:01:12.330" UserId="2892" Text="For questions regarding sexual activity used in magical, ritualistic or otherwise religious and spiritual pursuits." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16755" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5013" RevisionGUID="84667468-69c7-4277-aeb9-95df6f64b09d" CreationDate="2018-07-05T19:01:12.330" UserId="2892" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16757" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5014" RevisionGUID="fb9672d7-a5fd-4bc7-b80d-c123aeee29ed" CreationDate="2018-07-05T20:47:29.440" UserId="4271" Text="In the Odyssey, Hermes takes flight to Ogygia, Calypso's island, at Zeus's command to tell Calypso to let Odysseus leave to go home. When he arrives, Calypso recognizes him right away because, &quot;the gods all know each other, no matter how far they live from one another-&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;[Retrieved, paragraph 7][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How true is this? Is there a point in Greek Mythology in which two or one god(s) do not recognize the other? Or in another point, can the gods recognize other no matter which form they take?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hom.%20Od.%205&amp;lang=original" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16758" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5014" RevisionGUID="fb9672d7-a5fd-4bc7-b80d-c123aeee29ed" CreationDate="2018-07-05T20:47:29.440" UserId="4271" Text="Do the gods know all other gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16759" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5014" RevisionGUID="fb9672d7-a5fd-4bc7-b80d-c123aeee29ed" CreationDate="2018-07-05T20:47:29.440" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|homer|odyssey|odysseus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16760" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5015" RevisionGUID="63ab02d7-0c5d-440a-8fc9-a6c6409920a7" CreationDate="2018-07-05T21:00:49.783" UserId="4271" Text="When Hermes arrives on Ogygia, she asks why he is visiting here. &quot;Why have you come to see me, Hermes - honored, and ever welcome - for you do not visit me often?...&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;[Retrieved, paragraph 7][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hermes responses it is of no accord of his own and Zeus sent him. &quot;...Nevertheless I had to come, for none of us other gods can cross Zeus, nor transgress his orders [his noos]. He says that you have here the most ill-starred of all those who fought nine years before the city of King Priam and sailed home in the tenth year after having sacked it. **On their way home [nostos] they erred against Athena**, who raised both wind and waves against them, so that all his brave companions perished, and he alone was carried here by wind and tide. ...&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;[Retrieved, paragraph 9][1]  &#xD;&#xA;*Note: bold fount is my own format.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How did 'they' err against Athena? What did they do? What happened?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hom.%20Od.%205&amp;lang=original" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16761" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5015" RevisionGUID="63ab02d7-0c5d-440a-8fc9-a6c6409920a7" CreationDate="2018-07-05T21:00:49.783" UserId="4271" Text="What did Odysseus (or his men) do to 'err' against Athena?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16762" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5015" RevisionGUID="63ab02d7-0c5d-440a-8fc9-a6c6409920a7" CreationDate="2018-07-05T21:00:49.783" UserId="4271" Text="|odyssey|athena|odysseus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16765" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5017" RevisionGUID="94a750a5-459b-4d83-b36d-09ff8cff4e01" CreationDate="2018-07-06T20:46:58.667" UserId="5013" Text="**For consideration.&#xD;&#xA;Why limit the comparison to Jesus only?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Grimms &quot;Märchen&quot; (Fairy Tale) KHM #146 &quot;The Turnip,&quot; the text also ends with a man hanging in a tree in search of knowledge.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Johannes Bolte notes in his Anmerkungen to this text notes that the pretense of the captured one, that he learns hanging on the tree wisdom (Raparius V. 341), [reminds] on the way, upon which Odin becomes aware of secret knowledge. After the Edda (Hovaonl line.138. [In] Gerings translation p. 105 he offers himself, in that he hangs himself on the “weltesche” (world-ash) Yggdrasil and wounds himself with the spear:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;	I know, that I hung on the wind-moved tree&#xD;&#xA;	Nine nights through  - - - &#xD;&#xA;	I thrive I began and thoughts I received.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Bolte also states that one could also consider Aristophanes “Clouds,” where  Socrates speculates hanging in a basket.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; [![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;	&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Strepsiades and Pheidippides are discussing, Socrates is hanging in the air in a basket. Scene from Aristophanes's comedy Clouds.&#xD;&#xA;Date: 1564 or earlier. Source 	From Emblemata et aliquot nummis antiqui operis, cum emendatione et auctario copioso ipsius autoris by Joannes Sambucus, 1564. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    http://www.mnemosyne.org/mia/showillu?id=embmne_sam1569_105&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/bwViA.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16766" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5018" RevisionGUID="89c4ac89-fe29-4217-a619-ffa43d5b8baa" CreationDate="2018-07-06T22:29:23.600" UserId="409" Text="Is there a mythical/folklore origin for them? I haven't managed to find any sources on this." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16767" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5018" RevisionGUID="89c4ac89-fe29-4217-a619-ffa43d5b8baa" CreationDate="2018-07-06T22:29:23.600" UserId="409" Text="How were trolls created in Norse mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16768" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5018" RevisionGUID="89c4ac89-fe29-4217-a619-ffa43d5b8baa" CreationDate="2018-07-06T22:29:23.600" UserId="409" Text="|norse|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16769" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4972" RevisionGUID="c34d10f6-929b-47fd-8847-54e184d9fbbd" CreationDate="2018-07-07T04:21:24.653" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="16770" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5019" RevisionGUID="7afefe26-b2fd-4008-8f18-6ca32609a4da" CreationDate="2018-07-07T19:44:44.803" UserId="5188" Text="Do you know any mythological flying creatures that has saved human life?&#xD;&#xA;It's for a project name, thanks :)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16771" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5019" RevisionGUID="7afefe26-b2fd-4008-8f18-6ca32609a4da" CreationDate="2018-07-07T19:44:44.803" UserId="5188" Text="Looking for a mythological flying creatures that has saved human life" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16772" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5019" RevisionGUID="7afefe26-b2fd-4008-8f18-6ca32609a4da" CreationDate="2018-07-07T19:44:44.803" UserId="5188" Text="|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16774" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5020" RevisionGUID="d8b11cce-4e38-409a-ab43-1aa87edefa3c" CreationDate="2018-07-07T22:52:05.103" UserId="4271" Text="One that immediately comes to mind is, &quot;The Golden Ram,&quot; or by another name, &quot;Khrysomallos,&quot; from Greek Mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cliff notes version of the story- King had two kids with a goddess (or a cloud nymph). When the king remarried, she plotted the death of the two kids. To save them, the cloud nymph/goddess, in some form, appeared to them with a winged ram who had a coat of gold (as in metal, not color, but color as well I suppose). They climbed on the back of the ram to safety, though one of the children fell off into the sea." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16776" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4956" RevisionGUID="d1767280-8579-4e8f-892b-8962c9905de1" CreationDate="2018-07-08T12:07:55.517" UserId="1241" Comment="added 1444 characters in body" Text="If an angel can fall, can a demon rise? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to most Christian teaching and traditions, the short answer is **no**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Your question however does pose certain interesting perplexities to say the least.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First of all, I would like to make it clear that the Gospels do mention that there is such a thing as an unpardonable sin that man can commit. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The unpardonable/unforgivable sin or “blasphemy of the Holy Spirit” is mentioned in Mark 3:22–30 and Matthew 12:22–32. Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter” (Mark 3:28), but then He gives one exception: “Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin” (verse 29). - [What is the unpardonable sin / unforgivable sin?][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most theologians believe that the unpardonable sin the refusal of God's mercy and forgiveness and thus the individual condemns itself to hell of the damned because it refuses to be pardoned by god for it's sins. Thus the soul in hell becomes damned (not a demon) in hell who shares the company of Satan and all his demons for all eternity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Roman Catholic teaching there are six sins that blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. They are: 1. Despair (believing that one's evil is beyond God's forgiveness); 2. Presumption (glory without merit, that is, hope of salvation without keeping the Commandments, or expectation of pardon for sin without repentance); 3. Envying the goodness of another (sadness or repining at another's growth in virtue and perfection); 4. Obstinacy in sin (willful persisting in wickedness, and running on from sin to sin, after sufficient instructions and admonition); 5. Final impenitence (to die without either confession or contrition for our sins), and 6. Impugning the known truth (to argue against known points of faith, and this includes misrepresenting parts or all of the Christian faith to make it seem undesirable). - [Eternal sin (Wikipedia)][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For most denomination, the souls of men in hell are there for eternity and are known as the damned, not demons. The one notable exception is in Mormonism.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The other sense in which Mormons sometimes use the word &quot;hell&quot; is as a reference to what they call Outer Darkness, which is reserved for Satan and his spiritual minions, together with a few human beings that qualify as &quot;sons of perdition.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Although this would be close to the classical conception of Hell, the Mormon belief is that very few will go there, for the bar to be sent there is quite high. One must have a sure knowledge (beyond faith) that Jesus is the Christ, and then reject him anyway in the face of such a knowledge. This is Judas Iscariot territory and really beyond the capacity of the average person to achieve.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mormons also believe that just because you're dead doesn't mean the game is over. They take seriously the Descensus (mentioned in the Apostle's Creed), and believe that Jesus descended into the Spirit World during the three days that his body lay in the tomb to initiate the preaching of the Gospel to the spirits there, and organized this postmortem evangelization so that it continues even today. So even those who never had an opportunity to hear the Gospel will have such a chance in the next life.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Further, Mormons believe that there are certain necessary, salvific ordinances (what other Christians would call &quot;sacraments&quot;), that one must receive to achieve the Celestial (or highest) Kingdom. That is why Mormons perform these sacraments vicariously for the dead in their temples.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; So, for instance, if a deceased person is baptized for the dead, that doesn't mean that person is considered a member of the Church or a Mormon; it simply means that the sacrament has been performed on his or her behalf and he or she has the option to accept it, but also the freedom of will to reject it.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; So Bell's formulation that &quot;everyone will have a place in heaven, whatever that turns out to be&quot; is one that resonates with me, and I think he's on the right path. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; I don't believe that a just God would subject people to eternal physical torment for ever and ever, especially when in many cases people simply did not have an opportunity to learn of the Gospel in this life through no fault of their own. - [Mormon Damnation][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although Mormon theology allows for a soul in hell to be saved and eventually taken up into heaven, it should be noted that the Church of Latter Day Saints is not recognized as a Christian denomination by many other Christian communities. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In most Christian Churches, the term [demon][4] signifies a devil such as Lucifer, Satan, Beelzebub, Zebulun, Meridian or Asmodeus as well as all the other evil spirits in hell who are damned for eternity for their sins.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But then there is Origen!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Did Origen believe in the salvation of the devil? He clearly believed that all rational souls were able to be saved (Contra Celsum 4.99) and this would, on Origen's view of the nature of demonic forces, have included the devil and his demons. So the accusation was stirred up that he taught the salvation of demons. But, in a letter to his friends in Alexandria he explicitly denied that he thought the devil and his demons would be saved. So did he or didn't he? Tricky.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Perhaps the following passage explains how he could maintain both positions:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;For the destruction of the last enemy must be understood in this way, not that its substance which was made by God shall perish, but that the hostile purpose and will which proceeded, not from God but from itself, will come to an end. It will be destroyed, therefore, not in the sense of ceasing to exist, but of being no longer an enemy and no longer death. For to the Almighty nothing is impossible, nor is anything beyond the reach of cure by its maker.”&#xD;&#xA;Peri Archon 3.6.5 - [Origen on the Salvation of the Devil][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An interesting storyline: The YouTube movie, [Dark Angel The Ascent Full Moon][6] has the basic story line of a demon raising to earth in order to try to do good! Movies never lie!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.gotquestions.org/unpardonable-sin.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_sin&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.truthandgrace.com/damned.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://christianity.stackexchange.com/a/61837/25495&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://theologicalscribbles.blogspot.com/2011/08/origen-on-salvation-of-devil.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YotabeVkpB0" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16777" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5019" RevisionGUID="01264709-8774-469d-b213-350e5092879a" CreationDate="2018-07-08T12:45:30.087" UserId="4271" Comment="added 39 characters in body" Text="Can anyone help me? I am looking for a mythological flying creature(s) that has saved human life?  &#xD;&#xA;I am asking for a project in progress. Thanks." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16778" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5022" RevisionGUID="ea88f3a8-d593-4d06-bb99-f7322efd233e" CreationDate="2018-07-08T16:08:28.660" UserId="1317" Text="There is likely no &quot;error&quot; against Athena -- except perhaps her good advice. Indeed, from the very beginning of the _Odyssey_, we see that Athena is Odysseus's constant advocate with the gods, instigating his release from Ogygia in the opening of the narrative. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sin of Odysseus's _companions_ was againt the sun god Helios, and the punishment is meted out by Zeus. We read this in [Book 12](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D12) of the _Odyssey_ as he is relating his story to King Alcinous if the Phaecians:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Swiftly then to Helios Hyperion came [375] Lampetie of the long robes, bearing tidings that we had slain his kine; and straightway he spoke among the immortals, wroth at heart:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “‘Father Zeus and ye other blessed gods that are for ever, take vengeance now on the comrades of Odysseus, son of Laertes, who have insolently slain my kine, in which I ever took delight, when I went toward the starry heaven and when I turned back again to earth from heaven. If they do not pay me fit atonement for the kine I will go down to Hades and shine among the dead.’ &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Then Zeus, the cloud-gatherer, answered him and said:  ‘Helios, do thou verily shine on among the immortals and among mortal men upon the earth, the giver of grain. As for these men I will soon smite their swift ship with my bright thunder-bolt, and shatter it to pieces in the midst of the wine-dark sea.’ ***“This I heard from fair-haired Calypso, [390] and she said that she herself had heard it from the messenger Hermes.&quot;***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is important to take note of this last part, which I have highlighted, because it refers directly back to the very quote in your original post, which is Hermes telling Calypso why Odysseus's ship was destroyed and the man himself cast away onto Ogygia." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16779" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5022" RevisionGUID="75ada747-2bdf-46dc-84aa-db59d71eba3d" CreationDate="2018-07-08T16:18:59.590" UserId="1317" Comment="adding links" Text="There is likely no &quot;error&quot; against Athena -- except perhaps her good advice. Indeed, from the very beginning of the _Odyssey_, we see that Athena is Odysseus's constant advocate with the gods, instigating his release from Ogygia ([Book 1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D44)):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Then the goddess, flashing-eyed Athena, answered him: [45] “Father of us all, thou son of Cronos, high above all lords, aye, verily that man lies low in a destruction that is his due; so, too, may any other also be destroyed who does such deeds. **But my heart is torn for wise Odysseus**, hapless man, who far from his friends has long been suffering woes [50] in a sea-girt isle, where is the navel of the sea.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sin of Odysseus's _companions_ was against the sun god Helios, for devouing his sacred cattle. [The opening paragraph of the _Odyssey_](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D1) makes this plain:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tell me, O Muse, of the man of many devices, who wandered full many ways after he had sacked the sacred citadel of Troy. Many were the men whose cities he saw and whose mind he learned, aye, and many the woes he suffered in his heart upon the sea, seeking to win his own life and the return of his comrades. Yet even so he saved not his comrades, though he desired it sore, for through their own blind folly they perished— **fools, who devoured the kine of Helios Hyperion; but he took from them the day of their returning.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We also read this in [Book 12](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D12) of the _Odyssey_ as he is relating his story to King Alcinous if the Phaecians:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Swiftly then to Helios Hyperion came [375] Lampetie of the long robes, bearing tidings that we had slain his kine; and straightway he spoke among the immortals, wroth at heart:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “‘Father Zeus and ye other blessed gods that are for ever, take vengeance now on the comrades of Odysseus, son of Laertes, who have insolently slain my kine, in which I ever took delight, when I went toward the starry heaven and when I turned back again to earth from heaven. If they do not pay me fit atonement for the kine I will go down to Hades and shine among the dead.’ &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Then Zeus, the cloud-gatherer, answered him and said:  ‘Helios, do thou verily shine on among the immortals and among mortal men upon the earth, the giver of grain. As for these men I will soon smite their swift ship with my bright thunder-bolt, and shatter it to pieces in the midst of the wine-dark sea.’ ***“This I heard from fair-haired Calypso, [390] and she said that she herself had heard it from the messenger Hermes.&quot;***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is important to take note of this last part, which I have highlighted, because it refers directly back to the very quote in your original post, which is Hermes telling Calypso why Odysseus's ship was destroyed and the man himself cast away onto Ogygia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the moment, I'm putting the mention of Athena in book 5 down to a &quot;continuity error&quot;." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16780" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5022" RevisionGUID="ee44d2d7-c2a4-4252-a8c7-0060362d0b41" CreationDate="2018-07-08T16:27:23.787" UserId="1317" Comment="added 144 characters in body" Text="There is likely no &quot;error&quot; against Athena -- except perhaps her good advice. Indeed, from the very beginning of the _Odyssey_, we see that Athena is Odysseus's constant advocate with the gods, instigating his release from Ogygia ([Book 1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D44)):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Then the goddess, flashing-eyed Athena, answered him: [45] “Father of us all, thou son of Cronos, high above all lords, aye, verily that man lies low in a destruction that is his due; so, too, may any other also be destroyed who does such deeds. **But my heart is torn for wise Odysseus**, hapless man, who far from his friends has long been suffering woes [50] in a sea-girt isle, where is the navel of the sea.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sin of Odysseus's _companions_ was against the sun god [Helios](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios), for devouring [his sacred cattle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cattle_of_Helios). [The opening paragraph of the _Odyssey_](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D1) makes this plain:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tell me, O Muse, of the man of many devices, who wandered full many ways after he had sacked the sacred citadel of Troy. Many were the men whose cities he saw and whose mind he learned, aye, and many the woes he suffered in his heart upon the sea, seeking to win his own life and the return of his comrades. Yet even so he saved not his comrades, though he desired it sore, for through their own blind folly they perished— **fools, who devoured the kine of Helios Hyperion; but he took from them the day of their returning.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We also read this in [Book 12](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D12) of the _Odyssey_ as he is relating his story to King Alcinous if the Phaecians:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Swiftly then to Helios Hyperion came [375] Lampetie of the long robes, bearing tidings that we had slain his kine; and straightway he spoke among the immortals, wroth at heart:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “‘Father Zeus and ye other blessed gods that are for ever, take vengeance now on the comrades of Odysseus, son of Laertes, who have insolently slain my kine, in which I ever took delight, when I went toward the starry heaven and when I turned back again to earth from heaven. If they do not pay me fit atonement for the kine I will go down to Hades and shine among the dead.’ &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Then Zeus, the cloud-gatherer, answered him and said:  ‘Helios, do thou verily shine on among the immortals and among mortal men upon the earth, the giver of grain. As for these men I will soon smite their swift ship with my bright thunder-bolt, and shatter it to pieces in the midst of the wine-dark sea.’ ***“This I heard from fair-haired Calypso, and she said that she herself had heard it from the messenger Hermes.&quot;***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And so he did. A lightning bolt shattered the ship.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is important to take note of this last part, which I have highlighted, because it refers directly back to the very quote in your original post, which is Hermes telling Calypso why Odysseus's ship was destroyed and the man himself cast away onto Ogygia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the moment, I'm putting the mention of Athena in book 5 down to a &quot;continuity error&quot;." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16781" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5022" RevisionGUID="d44af69e-2e77-4635-9709-ae3a0915516d" CreationDate="2018-07-08T16:56:28.090" UserId="1317" Comment="added 517 characters in body" Text="Before the sack of Troy, Dimedes and Odysseus sneak into Troy and steal the [Palladium](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palladium_(classical_antiquity)) , a wooden statue of Athena, from her temple.  A prophecy stated that Troy could not fall as long as the statue remained.  But it's odd that this would anger Athena, who sided with the Greeks during the Trojan War (Paris didn't give _her_ the apple, after all) and the theft of the &quot;Luck of Troy&quot; was the key to the city's fall. Oh well, the gods are nothing if not capricious.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, during the return home, there is no &quot;error&quot; against Athena. Indeed, from the very beginning of the _Odyssey_, we see that Athena is Odysseus's constant advocate with the gods, instigating his release from Ogygia ([Book 1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D44)):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Then the goddess, flashing-eyed Athena, answered him: [45] “Father of us all, thou son of Cronos, high above all lords, aye, verily that man lies low in a destruction that is his due; so, too, may any other also be destroyed who does such deeds. **But my heart is torn for wise Odysseus**, hapless man, who far from his friends has long been suffering woes [50] in a sea-girt isle, where is the navel of the sea.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sin of Odysseus's _companions_ was against the sun god [Helios](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios), for devouring [his sacred cattle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cattle_of_Helios). [The opening paragraph of the _Odyssey_](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D1) makes this plain:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tell me, O Muse, of the man of many devices, who wandered full many ways after he had sacked the sacred citadel of Troy. Many were the men whose cities he saw and whose mind he learned, aye, and many the woes he suffered in his heart upon the sea, seeking to win his own life and the return of his comrades. Yet even so he saved not his comrades, though he desired it sore, for through their own blind folly they perished— **fools, who devoured the kine of Helios Hyperion; but he took from them the day of their returning.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We also read this in [Book 12](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D12) of the _Odyssey_ as he is relating his story to King Alcinous if the Phaecians:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Swiftly then to Helios Hyperion came [375] Lampetie of the long robes, bearing tidings that we had slain his kine; and straightway he spoke among the immortals, wroth at heart:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “‘Father Zeus and ye other blessed gods that are for ever, take vengeance now on the comrades of Odysseus, son of Laertes, who have insolently slain my kine, in which I ever took delight, when I went toward the starry heaven and when I turned back again to earth from heaven. If they do not pay me fit atonement for the kine I will go down to Hades and shine among the dead.’ &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Then Zeus, the cloud-gatherer, answered him and said:  ‘Helios, do thou verily shine on among the immortals and among mortal men upon the earth, the giver of grain. As for these men I will soon smite their swift ship with my bright thunder-bolt, and shatter it to pieces in the midst of the wine-dark sea.’ ***“This I heard from fair-haired Calypso, and she said that she herself had heard it from the messenger Hermes.&quot;***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And so he did. A lightning bolt shattered the ship.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is important to take note of this last part, which I have highlighted, because it refers directly back to the very quote in your original post, which is Hermes telling Calypso why Odysseus's ship was destroyed and the man himself cast away onto Ogygia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the moment, I'm putting the mention of Athena in book 5 down to a &quot;continuity error&quot;." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16782" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5022" RevisionGUID="5dcf569b-b161-4261-94ac-b9e5709d8a7a" CreationDate="2018-07-08T17:29:18.150" UserId="1317" Comment="added 341 characters in body" Text="Before the sack of Troy, Dimedes and Odysseus sneak into Troy and steal the [Palladium](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palladium_(classical_antiquity)) , a wooden statue of Athena, from her temple.  A prophecy stated that Troy could not fall as long as the statue remained.  But it's odd that this would anger Athena, who sided with the Greeks during the Trojan War (Paris didn't give _her_ the apple, after all) and the theft of the &quot;Luck of Troy&quot; was the key to the city's fall. Oh well, the gods are nothing if not capricious.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, during the return home, there is no &quot;error&quot; against Athena. Indeed, from the very beginning of the _Odyssey_, we see that Athena is Odysseus's constant advocate with the gods, instigating his release from Ogygia ([Book 1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D44)):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Then the goddess, flashing-eyed Athena, answered him: [45] “Father of us all, thou son of Cronos, high above all lords, aye, verily that man lies low in a destruction that is his due; so, too, may any other also be destroyed who does such deeds. **But my heart is torn for wise Odysseus**, hapless man, who far from his friends has long been suffering woes [50] in a sea-girt isle, where is the navel of the sea.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sin of Odysseus's _companions_ was against the sun god [Helios](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios), for devouring [his sacred cattle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cattle_of_Helios). [The opening paragraph of the _Odyssey_](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D1) makes this plain:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tell me, O Muse, of the man of many devices, who wandered full many ways after he had sacked the sacred citadel of Troy. Many were the men whose cities he saw and whose mind he learned, aye, and many the woes he suffered in his heart upon the sea, seeking to win his own life and the return of his comrades. Yet even so he saved not his comrades, though he desired it sore, for through their own blind folly they perished— **fools, who devoured the kine of Helios Hyperion; but he took from them the day of their returning.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We also read this in [Book 12](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D12) of the _Odyssey_ as he is relating his story to King Alcinous if the Phaecians:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Swiftly then to Helios Hyperion came [375] Lampetie of the long robes, bearing tidings that we had slain his kine; and straightway he spoke among the immortals, wroth at heart:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “‘Father Zeus and ye other blessed gods that are for ever, take vengeance now on the comrades of Odysseus, son of Laertes, who have insolently slain my kine, in which I ever took delight, when I went toward the starry heaven and when I turned back again to earth from heaven. If they do not pay me fit atonement for the kine I will go down to Hades and shine among the dead.’ &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Then Zeus, the cloud-gatherer, answered him and said:  ‘Helios, do thou verily shine on among the immortals and among mortal men upon the earth, the giver of grain. As for these men I will soon smite their swift ship with my bright thunder-bolt, and shatter it to pieces in the midst of the wine-dark sea.’ ***“This I heard from fair-haired Calypso, and she said that she herself had heard it from the messenger Hermes.&quot;***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And so he did. A lightning bolt shattered the ship.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is important to take note of this last part, which I have highlighted, because it refers directly back to the very quote in your original post, which is Hermes telling Calypso why Odysseus's ship was destroyed and the man himself cast away onto Ogygia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the moment, I'm putting the mention of Athena in book 5 down to a &quot;continuity error&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This appears to be [the original Greek](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0135%3Abook%3D5%3Acard%3D92) of your passage:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; τῶν ἀνδρῶν, οἳ ἄστυ πέρι Πριάμοιο μάχοντο&#xD;&#xA;εἰνάετες, δεκάτῳ δὲ πόλιν πέρσαντες ἔβησαν&#xD;&#xA;οἴκαδ᾽: ἀτὰρ ἐν νόστῳ Ἀθηναίην ἀλίτοντο,&#xD;&#xA;ἥ σφιν ἐπῶρσ᾽ ἄνεμόν τε κακὸν καὶ κύματα μακρά." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16783" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5022" RevisionGUID="56cef21e-dba7-49d6-bca3-1fd688b891ae" CreationDate="2018-07-08T17:53:20.810" UserId="1317" Comment="added 59 characters in body" Text="Before the sack of Troy, Dimedes and Odysseus sneak into Troy and steal the [Palladium](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palladium_(classical_antiquity)) , a wooden statue of Athena, from her temple.  A prophecy stated that Troy could not fall as long as the statue remained.  But it's odd that this would anger Athena, who sided with the Greeks during the Trojan War (Paris didn't give _her_ the apple, after all) and the theft of the &quot;Luck of Troy&quot; was the key to the city's fall. Oh well, the gods are nothing if not capricious.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, during the return home, there is no &quot;error&quot; against Athena. Indeed, from the very beginning of the _Odyssey_, we see that Athena is Odysseus's constant advocate with the gods, instigating his release from Ogygia ([Book 1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D44)):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Then the goddess, flashing-eyed Athena, answered him: [45] “Father of us all, thou son of Cronos, high above all lords, aye, verily that man lies low in a destruction that is his due; so, too, may any other also be destroyed who does such deeds. **But my heart is torn for wise Odysseus**, hapless man, who far from his friends has long been suffering woes [50] in a sea-girt isle, where is the navel of the sea.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sin of Odysseus's _companions_ was against the sun god [Helios](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios), for devouring [his sacred cattle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cattle_of_Helios). [The opening paragraph of the _Odyssey_](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D1) makes this plain:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tell me, O Muse, of the man of many devices, who wandered full many ways after he had sacked the sacred citadel of Troy. Many were the men whose cities he saw and whose mind he learned, aye, and many the woes he suffered in his heart upon the sea, seeking to win his own life and the return of his comrades. Yet even so he saved not his comrades, though he desired it sore, for through their own blind folly they perished— **fools, who devoured the kine of Helios Hyperion; but he took from them the day of their returning.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We also read this in [Book 12](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D12) of the _Odyssey_ as he is relating his story to King Alcinous if the Phaecians:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Swiftly then to Helios Hyperion came [375] Lampetie of the long robes, bearing tidings that we had slain his kine; and straightway he spoke among the immortals, wroth at heart:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “‘Father Zeus and ye other blessed gods that are for ever, take vengeance now on the comrades of Odysseus, son of Laertes, who have insolently slain my kine, in which I ever took delight, when I went toward the starry heaven and when I turned back again to earth from heaven. If they do not pay me fit atonement for the kine I will go down to Hades and shine among the dead.’ &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Then Zeus, the cloud-gatherer, answered him and said:  ‘Helios, do thou verily shine on among the immortals and among mortal men upon the earth, the giver of grain. As for these men I will soon smite their swift ship with my bright thunder-bolt, and shatter it to pieces in the midst of the wine-dark sea.’ ***“This I heard from fair-haired Calypso, and she said that she herself had heard it from the messenger Hermes.&quot;***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And so he did. A lightning bolt shattered the ship.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is important to take note of this last part, which I have highlighted, because it refers directly back to the very quote in your original post, which is Hermes telling Calypso why Odysseus's ship was destroyed and the man himself cast away onto Ogygia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the moment, I'm putting the mention of Athena in book 5 down to a &quot;continuity error&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This appears to be [the original Greek](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0135%3Abook%3D5%3Acard%3D92) of your passage ( pasted here just si I can find it again):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; τῶν ἀνδρῶν, οἳ ἄστυ πέρι **Πριάμοιο** μάχοντο&#xD;&#xA;εἰνάετες, **δεκάτῳ** δὲ **πόλιν** πέρσαντες ἔβησαν&#xD;&#xA;οἴκαδ᾽: ἀτὰρ ἐν νόστῳ **Ἀθηναίην** ἀλίτοντο,&#xD;&#xA;ἥ σφιν ἐπῶρσ᾽ ἄνεμόν τε κακὸν καὶ κύματα μακρά." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16784" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5022" RevisionGUID="17c12393-f30c-47ea-adff-b404803b0119" CreationDate="2018-07-08T18:02:08.570" UserId="1317" Comment="added 419 characters in body" Text="Before the sack of Troy, Dimedes and Odysseus sneak into Troy and steal the [Palladium](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palladium_(classical_antiquity)) , a wooden statue of Athena, from her temple.  A prophecy stated that Troy could not fall as long as the statue remained.  But it's odd that this would anger Athena, who sided with the Greeks during the Trojan War (Paris didn't give _her_ the apple, after all) and the theft of the &quot;Luck of Troy&quot; was the key to the city's fall. Oh well, the gods are nothing if not capricious.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, during the return home, there is no &quot;error&quot; against Athena. Indeed, from the very beginning of the _Odyssey_, we see that Athena is Odysseus's constant advocate with the gods, instigating his release from Ogygia ([Book 1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D44)):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Then the goddess, flashing-eyed Athena, answered him: [45] “Father of us all, thou son of Cronos, high above all lords, aye, verily that man lies low in a destruction that is his due; so, too, may any other also be destroyed who does such deeds. **But my heart is torn for wise Odysseus**, hapless man, who far from his friends has long been suffering woes [50] in a sea-girt isle, where is the navel of the sea.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sin of Odysseus's _companions_ was against the sun god [Helios](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios), for devouring [his sacred cattle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cattle_of_Helios). [The opening paragraph of the _Odyssey_](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D1) makes this plain:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tell me, O Muse, of the man of many devices, who wandered full many ways after he had sacked the sacred citadel of Troy. Many were the men whose cities he saw and whose mind he learned, aye, and many the woes he suffered in his heart upon the sea, seeking to win his own life and the return of his comrades. Yet even so he saved not his comrades, though he desired it sore, for through their own blind folly they perished— **fools, who devoured the kine of Helios Hyperion; but he took from them the day of their returning.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We also read this in [Book 12](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D12) of the _Odyssey_ as he is relating his story to King Alcinous if the Phaecians:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Swiftly then to Helios Hyperion came [375] Lampetie of the long robes, bearing tidings that we had slain his kine; and straightway he spoke among the immortals, wroth at heart:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “‘Father Zeus and ye other blessed gods that are for ever, take vengeance now on the comrades of Odysseus, son of Laertes, who have insolently slain my kine, in which I ever took delight, when I went toward the starry heaven and when I turned back again to earth from heaven. If they do not pay me fit atonement for the kine I will go down to Hades and shine among the dead.’ &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Then Zeus, the cloud-gatherer, answered him and said:  ‘Helios, do thou verily shine on among the immortals and among mortal men upon the earth, the giver of grain. As for these men I will soon smite their swift ship with my bright thunder-bolt, and shatter it to pieces in the midst of the wine-dark sea.’ ***“This I heard from fair-haired Calypso, and she said that she herself had heard it from the messenger Hermes.&quot;***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And so he did. A lightning bolt shattered the ship.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is important to take note of this last part, which I have highlighted, because it refers directly back to the very quote in your original post, which is Hermes telling Calypso why Odysseus's ship was destroyed and the man himself cast away onto Ogygia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the moment, I'm putting the mention of Athena in book 5 down to a &quot;continuity error&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This appears to be [the original Greek](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0135%3Abook%3D5%3Acard%3D92) of your passage ( pasted here just si I can find it again):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;εἰρωτᾷς μ᾽ ἐλθόντα θεὰ θεόν: αὐτὰρ ἐγώ τοι&#xD;&#xA;νημερτέως τὸν μῦθον ἐνισπήσω: κέλεαι γάρ.&#xD;&#xA;**Ζεὺς** ἐμέ γ᾽ ἠνώγει δεῦρ᾽ ἐλθέμεν οὐκ ἐθέλοντα:&#xD;&#xA;τίς δ᾽ ἂν ἑκὼν τοσσόνδε διαδράμοι ἁλμυρὸν ὕδωρ&#xD;&#xA;ἄσπετον; οὐδέ τις ἄγχι βροτῶν πόλις, οἵ τε θεοῖσιν&#xD;&#xA;ἱερά τε ῥέζουσι καὶ ἐξαίτους ἑκατόμβας.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ἀλλὰ μάλ᾽ οὔ πως ἔστι Διὸς **νόον** αἰγιόχοιο&#xD;&#xA;οὔτε παρεξελθεῖν ἄλλον θεὸν οὔθ᾽ ἁλιῶσαι.&#xD;&#xA;φησί τοι ἄνδρα παρεῖναι ὀιζυρώτατον ἄλλων, τῶν ἀνδρῶν, οἳ ἄστυ πέρι **Πριάμοιο** μάχοντο&#xD;&#xA;εἰνάετες, **δεκάτῳ** δὲ **πόλιν** πέρσαντες ἔβησαν&#xD;&#xA;οἴκαδ᾽: ἀτὰρ ἐν νόστῳ **Ἀθηναίην** ἀλίτοντο,&#xD;&#xA;ἥ σφιν ἐπῶρσ᾽ ἄνεμόν τε κακὸν καὶ κύματα μακρά." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16785" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5022" RevisionGUID="9d63b993-342e-4a4d-8180-503db27f20c5" CreationDate="2018-07-08T18:07:24.377" UserId="1317" Comment="added 419 characters in body" Text="Before the sack of Troy, Dimedes and Odysseus sneak into Troy and steal the [Palladium](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palladium_(classical_antiquity)) , a wooden statue of Athena, from her temple.  A prophecy stated that Troy could not fall as long as the statue remained.  But it's odd that this would anger Athena, who sided with the Greeks during the Trojan War (Paris didn't give _her_ the apple, after all) and the theft of the &quot;Luck of Troy&quot; was the key to the city's fall. Oh well, the gods are nothing if not capricious.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, during the return home, there is no &quot;error&quot; against Athena. Indeed, from the very beginning of the _Odyssey_, we see that Athena is Odysseus's constant advocate with the gods, instigating his release from Ogygia ([Book 1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D44)):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Then the goddess, flashing-eyed Athena, answered him: [45] “Father of us all, thou son of Cronos, high above all lords, aye, verily that man lies low in a destruction that is his due; so, too, may any other also be destroyed who does such deeds. **But my heart is torn for wise Odysseus**, hapless man, who far from his friends has long been suffering woes [50] in a sea-girt isle, where is the navel of the sea.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sin of Odysseus's _companions_ was against the sun god [Helios](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios), for devouring [his sacred cattle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cattle_of_Helios). [The opening paragraph of the _Odyssey_](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D1) makes this plain:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tell me, O Muse, of the man of many devices, who wandered full many ways after he had sacked the sacred citadel of Troy. Many were the men whose cities he saw and whose mind he learned, aye, and many the woes he suffered in his heart upon the sea, seeking to win his own life and the return of his comrades. Yet even so he saved not his comrades, though he desired it sore, for through their own blind folly they perished— **fools, who devoured the kine of Helios Hyperion; but he took from them the day of their returning.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We also read this in [Book 12](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D12) of the _Odyssey_ as he is relating his story to King Alcinous if the Phaecians:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Swiftly then to Helios Hyperion came [375] Lampetie of the long robes, bearing tidings that we had slain his kine; and straightway he spoke among the immortals, wroth at heart:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “‘Father Zeus and ye other blessed gods that are for ever, take vengeance now on the comrades of Odysseus, son of Laertes, who have insolently slain my kine, in which I ever took delight, when I went toward the starry heaven and when I turned back again to earth from heaven. If they do not pay me fit atonement for the kine I will go down to Hades and shine among the dead.’ &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Then Zeus, the cloud-gatherer, answered him and said:  ‘Helios, do thou verily shine on among the immortals and among mortal men upon the earth, the giver of grain. As for these men I will soon smite their swift ship with my bright thunder-bolt, and shatter it to pieces in the midst of the wine-dark sea.’ ***“This I heard from fair-haired Calypso, and she said that she herself had heard it from the messenger Hermes.&quot;***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And so he did. A lightning bolt shattered the ship.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is important to take note of this last part, which I have highlighted, because it refers directly back to the very quote in your original post, which is Hermes telling Calypso why Odysseus's ship was destroyed and the man himself cast away onto Ogygia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the moment, I'm putting the mention of Athena in book 5 down to a &quot;continuity error&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This appears to be [the original Greek](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0135%3Abook%3D5%3Acard%3D92) of your passage ( pasted here just si I can find it again):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;εἰρωτᾷς μ᾽ ἐλθόντα θεὰ θεόν: αὐτὰρ ἐγώ τοι&#xD;&#xA;νημερτέως τὸν μῦθον ἐνισπήσω: κέλεαι γάρ.&#xD;&#xA;**Ζεὺς** ἐμέ γ᾽ ἠνώγει δεῦρ᾽ ἐλθέμεν οὐκ ἐθέλοντα:&#xD;&#xA;τίς δ᾽ ἂν ἑκὼν τοσσόνδε διαδράμοι ἁλμυρὸν ὕδωρ&#xD;&#xA;ἄσπετον; οὐδέ τις ἄγχι βροτῶν πόλις, οἵ τε θεοῖσιν&#xD;&#xA;ἱερά τε ῥέζουσι καὶ ἐξαίτους ἑκατόμβας.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ἀλλὰ μάλ᾽ οὔ πως ἔστι Διὸς **νόον** αἰγιόχοιο&#xD;&#xA;οὔτε παρεξελθεῖν ἄλλον θεὸν οὔθ᾽ ἁλιῶσαι.&#xD;&#xA;φησί τοι ἄνδρα παρεῖναι ὀιζυρώτατον ἄλλων, τῶν ἀνδρῶν, οἳ ἄστυ πέρι **Πριάμοιο** μάχοντο&#xD;&#xA;εἰνάετες, **δεκάτῳ** δὲ **πόλιν** πέρσαντες ἔβησαν&#xD;&#xA;οἴκαδ᾽: ἀτὰρ ἐν **νόστῳ** **Ἀθηναίην** ἀλίτοντο,&#xD;&#xA;ἥ σφιν ἐπῶρσ᾽ **ἄνεμόν** τε κακὸν καὶ **κύματα** μακρά." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16786" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5022" RevisionGUID="bf60e176-1d4d-4f1c-968d-4b7cceb11d1c" CreationDate="2018-07-08T18:13:15.267" UserId="1317" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="Before the sack of Troy, Dimedes and Odysseus sneak into Troy and steal the [Palladium](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palladium_(classical_antiquity)) , a wooden statue of Athena, from her temple.  A prophecy stated that Troy could not fall as long as the statue remained.  But it's odd that this would anger Athena, who sided with the Greeks during the Trojan War (Paris didn't give _her_ the apple, after all) and the theft of the &quot;Luck of Troy&quot; was the key to the city's fall. Oh well, the gods are nothing if not capricious.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, during the return home, there is no &quot;error&quot; against Athena. Indeed, from the very beginning of the _Odyssey_, we see that Athena is Odysseus's constant advocate with the gods, instigating his release from Ogygia ([Book 1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D44)):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Then the goddess, flashing-eyed Athena, answered him: [45] “Father of us all, thou son of Cronos, high above all lords, aye, verily that man lies low in a destruction that is his due; so, too, may any other also be destroyed who does such deeds. **But my heart is torn for wise Odysseus**, hapless man, who far from his friends has long been suffering woes [50] in a sea-girt isle, where is the navel of the sea.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sin of Odysseus's _companions_ was against the sun god [Helios](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios), for devouring [his sacred cattle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cattle_of_Helios). [The opening paragraph of the _Odyssey_](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D1) makes this plain:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tell me, O Muse, of the man of many devices, who wandered full many ways after he had sacked the sacred citadel of Troy. Many were the men whose cities he saw and whose mind he learned, aye, and many the woes he suffered in his heart upon the sea, seeking to win his own life and the return of his comrades. Yet even so he saved not his comrades, though he desired it sore, for through their own blind folly they perished— **fools, who devoured the kine of Helios Hyperion; but he took from them the day of their returning.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We also read this in [Book 12](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D12) of the _Odyssey_ as he is relating his story to King Alcinous if the Phaecians:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Swiftly then to Helios Hyperion came [375] Lampetie of the long robes, bearing tidings that we had slain his kine; and straightway he spoke among the immortals, wroth at heart:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “‘Father Zeus and ye other blessed gods that are for ever, take vengeance now on the comrades of Odysseus, son of Laertes, who have insolently slain my kine, in which I ever took delight, when I went toward the starry heaven and when I turned back again to earth from heaven. If they do not pay me fit atonement for the kine I will go down to Hades and shine among the dead.’ &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Then Zeus, the cloud-gatherer, answered him and said:  ‘Helios, do thou verily shine on among the immortals and among mortal men upon the earth, the giver of grain. As for these men I will soon smite their swift ship with my bright thunder-bolt, and shatter it to pieces in the midst of the wine-dark sea.’ ***“This I heard from fair-haired Calypso, and she said that she herself had heard it from the messenger Hermes.&quot;***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And so he did. A lightning bolt shattered the ship.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is important to take note of this last part, which I have highlighted, because it refers directly back to the very quote in your original post, which is Hermes telling Calypso why Odysseus's ship was destroyed and the man himself cast away onto Ogygia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the moment, I'm putting the mention of Athena in book 5 down to a &quot;continuity error&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This appears to be [the original Greek](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0135%3Abook%3D5%3Acard%3D92) of your passage ( pasted here just si I can find it again):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;εἰρωτᾷς μ᾽ ἐλθόντα θεὰ θεόν: αὐτὰρ ἐγώ τοι&#xD;&#xA;νημερτέως τὸν μῦθον ἐνισπήσω: κέλεαι γάρ.&#xD;&#xA;**Ζεὺς** ἐμέ γ᾽ ἠνώγει δεῦρ᾽ ἐλθέμεν οὐκ ἐθέλοντα:&#xD;&#xA;τίς δ᾽ ἂν ἑκὼν τοσσόνδε διαδράμοι ἁλμυρὸν ὕδωρ&#xD;&#xA;ἄσπετον; οὐδέ τις ἄγχι βροτῶν πόλις, οἵ τε θεοῖσιν&#xD;&#xA;ἱερά τε ῥέζουσι καὶ ἐξαίτους ἑκατόμβας.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ἀλλὰ μάλ᾽ οὔ πως ἔστι Διὸς **νόον** αἰγιόχοιο&#xD;&#xA;οὔτε παρεξελθεῖν ἄλλον θεὸν οὔθ᾽ ἁλιῶσαι.&#xD;&#xA;φησί τοι ἄνδρα παρεῖναι ὀιζυρώτατον ἄλλων, τῶν ἀνδρῶν, οἳ ἄστυ πέρι **Πριάμοιο** μάχοντο&#xD;&#xA;εἰνάετες, **δεκάτῳ** δὲ **πόλιν** πέρσαντες ἔβησαν&#xD;&#xA;οἴκαδ᾽: ἀτὰρ ἐν **νόστῳ** **Ἀθηναίην** **ἀλίτοντο**,&#xD;&#xA;ἥ σφιν ἐπῶρσ᾽ **ἄνεμόν** τε κακὸν καὶ **κύματα** μακρά." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16787" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5022" RevisionGUID="09b7bbb2-dc60-44f3-8d7c-0f1132c57551" CreationDate="2018-07-08T20:39:39.783" UserId="1317" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="Before the sack of Troy, Diomedes and Odysseus sneak into Troy and steal the [Palladium](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palladium_(classical_antiquity)) , a wooden statue of Athena, from her temple.  A prophecy stated that Troy could not fall as long as the statue remained.  But it's odd that this would anger Athena, who sided with the Greeks during the Trojan War (Paris didn't give _her_ the apple, after all) and the theft of the &quot;Luck of Troy&quot; was the key to the city's fall. Oh well, the gods are nothing if not capricious.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, during the return home, there is no &quot;error&quot; against Athena. Indeed, from the very beginning of the _Odyssey_, we see that Athena is Odysseus's constant advocate with the gods, instigating his release from Ogygia ([Book 1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D44)):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Then the goddess, flashing-eyed Athena, answered him: [45] “Father of us all, thou son of Cronos, high above all lords, aye, verily that man lies low in a destruction that is his due; so, too, may any other also be destroyed who does such deeds. **But my heart is torn for wise Odysseus**, hapless man, who far from his friends has long been suffering woes [50] in a sea-girt isle, where is the navel of the sea.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sin of Odysseus's _companions_ was against the sun god [Helios](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios), for devouring [his sacred cattle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cattle_of_Helios). [The opening paragraph of the _Odyssey_](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D1) makes this plain:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tell me, O Muse, of the man of many devices, who wandered full many ways after he had sacked the sacred citadel of Troy. Many were the men whose cities he saw and whose mind he learned, aye, and many the woes he suffered in his heart upon the sea, seeking to win his own life and the return of his comrades. Yet even so he saved not his comrades, though he desired it sore, for through their own blind folly they perished— **fools, who devoured the kine of Helios Hyperion; but he took from them the day of their returning.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We also read this in [Book 12](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D12) of the _Odyssey_ as he is relating his story to King Alcinous if the Phaecians:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Swiftly then to Helios Hyperion came [375] Lampetie of the long robes, bearing tidings that we had slain his kine; and straightway he spoke among the immortals, wroth at heart:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “‘Father Zeus and ye other blessed gods that are for ever, take vengeance now on the comrades of Odysseus, son of Laertes, who have insolently slain my kine, in which I ever took delight, when I went toward the starry heaven and when I turned back again to earth from heaven. If they do not pay me fit atonement for the kine I will go down to Hades and shine among the dead.’ &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Then Zeus, the cloud-gatherer, answered him and said:  ‘Helios, do thou verily shine on among the immortals and among mortal men upon the earth, the giver of grain. As for these men I will soon smite their swift ship with my bright thunder-bolt, and shatter it to pieces in the midst of the wine-dark sea.’ ***“This I heard from fair-haired Calypso, and she said that she herself had heard it from the messenger Hermes.&quot;***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And so he did. A lightning bolt shattered the ship.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is important to take note of this last part, which I have highlighted, because it refers directly back to the very quote in your original post, which is Hermes telling Calypso why Odysseus's ship was destroyed and the man himself cast away onto Ogygia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the moment, I'm putting the mention of Athena in book 5 down to a &quot;continuity error&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This appears to be [the original Greek](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0135%3Abook%3D5%3Acard%3D92) of your passage ( pasted here just si I can find it again):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;εἰρωτᾷς μ᾽ ἐλθόντα θεὰ θεόν: αὐτὰρ ἐγώ τοι&#xD;&#xA;νημερτέως τὸν μῦθον ἐνισπήσω: κέλεαι γάρ.&#xD;&#xA;**Ζεὺς** ἐμέ γ᾽ ἠνώγει δεῦρ᾽ ἐλθέμεν οὐκ ἐθέλοντα:&#xD;&#xA;τίς δ᾽ ἂν ἑκὼν τοσσόνδε διαδράμοι ἁλμυρὸν ὕδωρ&#xD;&#xA;ἄσπετον; οὐδέ τις ἄγχι βροτῶν πόλις, οἵ τε θεοῖσιν&#xD;&#xA;ἱερά τε ῥέζουσι καὶ ἐξαίτους ἑκατόμβας.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ἀλλὰ μάλ᾽ οὔ πως ἔστι Διὸς **νόον** αἰγιόχοιο&#xD;&#xA;οὔτε παρεξελθεῖν ἄλλον θεὸν οὔθ᾽ ἁλιῶσαι.&#xD;&#xA;φησί τοι ἄνδρα παρεῖναι ὀιζυρώτατον ἄλλων, τῶν ἀνδρῶν, οἳ ἄστυ πέρι **Πριάμοιο** μάχοντο&#xD;&#xA;εἰνάετες, **δεκάτῳ** δὲ **πόλιν** πέρσαντες ἔβησαν&#xD;&#xA;οἴκαδ᾽: ἀτὰρ ἐν **νόστῳ** **Ἀθηναίην** **ἀλίτοντο**,&#xD;&#xA;ἥ σφιν ἐπῶρσ᾽ **ἄνεμόν** τε κακὸν καὶ **κύματα** μακρά." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16788" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5022" RevisionGUID="89a5040d-32a5-49cc-abc6-7d794b034210" CreationDate="2018-07-09T03:16:59.020" UserId="4271" Comment="corrected spelling" Text="Before the sack of Troy, Diomedes and Odysseus sneak into Troy and steal the [Palladium](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palladium_(classical_antiquity)) , a wooden statue of Athena, from her temple.  A prophecy stated that Troy could not fall as long as the statue remained.  But it's odd that this would anger Athena, who sided with the Greeks during the Trojan War (Paris didn't give _her_ the apple, after all) and the theft of the &quot;Luck of Troy&quot; was the key to the city's fall. Oh well, the gods are nothing if not capricious.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, during the return home, there is no &quot;error&quot; against Athena. Indeed, from the very beginning of the _Odyssey_, we see that Athena is Odysseus's constant advocate with the gods, instigating his release from Ogygia ([Book 1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D44)):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Then the goddess, flashing-eyed Athena, answered him: [45] “Father of us all, thou son of Cronos, high above all lords, aye, verily that man lies low in a destruction that is his due; so, too, may any other also be destroyed who does such deeds. **But my heart is torn for wise Odysseus**, hapless man, who far from his friends has long been suffering woes [50] in a sea-girt isle, where is the navel of the sea.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sin of Odysseus's _companions_ was against the sun god [Helios](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios), for devouring [his sacred cattle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cattle_of_Helios). [The opening paragraph of the _Odyssey_](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D1) makes this plain:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tell me, O Muse, of the man of many devices, who wandered full many ways after he had sacked the sacred citadel of Troy. Many were the men whose cities he saw and whose mind he learned, aye, and many the woes he suffered in his heart upon the sea, seeking to win his own life and the return of his comrades. Yet even so he saved not his comrades, though he desired it sore, for through their own blind folly they perished— **fools, who devoured the kine of Helios Hyperion; but he took from them the day of their returning.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We also read this in [Book 12](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D12) of the _Odyssey_ as he is relating his story to King Alcinous if the Phaecians:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Swiftly then to Helios Hyperion came [375] Lampetie of the long robes, bearing tidings that we had slain his kine; and straightway he spoke among the immortals, wroth at heart:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “‘Father Zeus and ye other blessed gods that are for ever, take vengeance now on the comrades of Odysseus, son of Laertes, who have insolently slain my kine, in which I ever took delight, when I went toward the starry heaven and when I turned back again to earth from heaven. If they do not pay me fit atonement for the kine I will go down to Hades and shine among the dead.’ &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Then Zeus, the cloud-gatherer, answered him and said:  ‘Helios, do thou verily shine on among the immortals and among mortal men upon the earth, the giver of grain. As for these men I will soon smite their swift ship with my bright thunder-bolt, and shatter it to pieces in the midst of the wine-dark sea.’ ***“This I heard from fair-haired Calypso, and she said that she herself had heard it from the messenger Hermes.&quot;***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And so he did. A lightning bolt shattered the ship.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is important to take note of this last part, which I have highlighted, because it refers directly back to the very quote in your original post, which is Hermes telling Calypso why Odysseus's ship was destroyed and the man himself cast away onto Ogygia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the moment, I'm putting the mention of Athena in book 5 down to a &quot;continuity error&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This appears to be [the original Greek](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0135%3Abook%3D5%3Acard%3D92) of your passage ( pasted here just so I can find it again):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;εἰρωτᾷς μ᾽ ἐλθόντα θεὰ θεόν: αὐτὰρ ἐγώ τοι&#xD;&#xA;νημερτέως τὸν μῦθον ἐνισπήσω: κέλεαι γάρ.&#xD;&#xA;**Ζεὺς** ἐμέ γ᾽ ἠνώγει δεῦρ᾽ ἐλθέμεν οὐκ ἐθέλοντα:&#xD;&#xA;τίς δ᾽ ἂν ἑκὼν τοσσόνδε διαδράμοι ἁλμυρὸν ὕδωρ&#xD;&#xA;ἄσπετον; οὐδέ τις ἄγχι βροτῶν πόλις, οἵ τε θεοῖσιν&#xD;&#xA;ἱερά τε ῥέζουσι καὶ ἐξαίτους ἑκατόμβας.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ἀλλὰ μάλ᾽ οὔ πως ἔστι Διὸς **νόον** αἰγιόχοιο&#xD;&#xA;οὔτε παρεξελθεῖν ἄλλον θεὸν οὔθ᾽ ἁλιῶσαι.&#xD;&#xA;φησί τοι ἄνδρα παρεῖναι ὀιζυρώτατον ἄλλων, τῶν ἀνδρῶν, οἳ ἄστυ πέρι **Πριάμοιο** μάχοντο&#xD;&#xA;εἰνάετες, **δεκάτῳ** δὲ **πόλιν** πέρσαντες ἔβησαν&#xD;&#xA;οἴκαδ᾽: ἀτὰρ ἐν **νόστῳ** **Ἀθηναίην** **ἀλίτοντο**,&#xD;&#xA;ἥ σφιν ἐπῶρσ᾽ **ἄνεμόν** τε κακὸν καὶ **κύματα** μακρά." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16791" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5023" RevisionGUID="5ff7f86d-3136-4d6f-84d0-aea0514aa45d" CreationDate="2018-07-09T13:46:11.487" UserId="5193" Text="I want to have a collection of stories and myths about norse gods and their adventures i.e, the history of . I have searched google for long and couldn't find majority accepted book. I came to see about Neil Gaiman's book on norse mythology. Honestly i don't know anything about norse mythology other than asgard and thor stories. So i would like to get recommended for books" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16792" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5023" RevisionGUID="5ff7f86d-3136-4d6f-84d0-aea0514aa45d" CreationDate="2018-07-09T13:46:11.487" UserId="5193" Text="Norse mythology book by neil gaiman" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16793" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5023" RevisionGUID="5ff7f86d-3136-4d6f-84d0-aea0514aa45d" CreationDate="2018-07-09T13:46:11.487" UserId="5193" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16794" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5024" RevisionGUID="e3349b6b-1beb-4045-a607-315ab5804b34" CreationDate="2018-07-09T21:23:59.910" UserId="2892" Text="I haven't had a chance to read Gaiman's book, but the material from the Norse canon you will likely be most interested in is the [Prose Edda][1]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This work was written/compiled by written by the Icelandic scholar, lawspeaker and historian Snorri Sturluson around the year 1220, and is filled with important and often highly entertaining stories of the Norse gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can find free translations online, such as this [PDF from Univerzeta Karlova][2].  My personal favorite English translation is [Kevin Crossley-Holland's The Norse Myths][3], but there are numerous other translations in numerous languages.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prose_Edda&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://is.cuni.cz/studium/predmety/index.php?do=download&amp;did=62028&amp;kod=ARL100252&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/497366.The_Norse_Myths" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16795" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5020" RevisionGUID="f99826d2-cb83-4b12-a83e-343de5289d3a" CreationDate="2018-07-09T21:35:09.363" UserId="2892" Comment="added 183 characters in body" Text="One that immediately comes to mind is, &quot;The Golden Ram,&quot; or by another name, &quot;Khrysomallos,&quot; from Greek Mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cliff notes version of the story- King had two kids with a goddess (or a cloud nymph). When the king remarried, she plotted the death of the two kids. To save them, the cloud nymph/goddess, in some form, appeared to them with a winged ram who had a coat of gold (as in metal, not color, but color as well I suppose). They climbed on the back of the ram to safety, though one of the children fell off into the sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See: [Apollodorus, Library 1.9.1][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D9%3Asection%3D1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16796" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5025" RevisionGUID="947c7423-4d51-455c-ae2a-1993d202cf7d" CreationDate="2018-07-10T00:25:08.547" UserId="4271" Text="I know of Hades with his Helm of Darkness. I know that Athena gave a Helm of Darkness to the hero Perseus and later used it (or another) herself in the Iliad to hid from Ares. Another point in the Iliad is with Zeus hiding himself and Hera in a cloud so the other gods don't see them making love.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What other ways do the gods hide themselves?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16797" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5025" RevisionGUID="947c7423-4d51-455c-ae2a-1993d202cf7d" CreationDate="2018-07-10T00:25:08.547" UserId="4271" Text="How can gods hide themselves from other god's gaze?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16798" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5025" RevisionGUID="947c7423-4d51-455c-ae2a-1993d202cf7d" CreationDate="2018-07-10T00:25:08.547" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|athena|iliad|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16799" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5026" RevisionGUID="e3661fb8-c5ce-41fb-8946-9b5d69f85991" CreationDate="2018-07-10T00:43:42.927" UserId="4271" Text="I was in a charms shop a while back and they had a section laid out for Celtic Mythology charms and their meanings. I had a look and found Thor's hammer. I ask my mom and she said the Mythologies are connected. I ignore this with my small mind, thinking, &quot;How?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then I get some money and took the family to Barns and Nobles. There I found a [Norse Mythology book][1] by Helen A. Guerber (I have yet to read it, but will when I get back from basic training and AIT). I look at the cover and ask mom who it is. She looked and suggested the Green Man from Celtic Mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So I now ask, how are the two Mythologies connected/related/compared?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://images.gr-assets.com/books/1489656139l/34606688.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16800" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5026" RevisionGUID="e3661fb8-c5ce-41fb-8946-9b5d69f85991" CreationDate="2018-07-10T00:43:42.927" UserId="4271" Text="How are Norse and Celtic mythology related?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16801" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5026" RevisionGUID="e3661fb8-c5ce-41fb-8946-9b5d69f85991" CreationDate="2018-07-10T00:43:42.927" UserId="4271" Text="|norse|comparative|celtic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16802" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5027" RevisionGUID="c8e43314-ac24-4797-86ef-4783407c20fd" CreationDate="2018-07-10T00:57:49.270" UserId="4271" Text="When Typhon showed up at Olympus, most of the gods fled to Egypt in the form of animals. ([Wikipedia][1] is the only place I found what form they took.) Apollo was a hawk, Hermes an ibis, Ares a fish, Artemis a cat, Dionysus a goat, Heracles a fawn, Hephaestus an ox, and Leto a mouse. But I haven't found any sources on what animal Demeter transformed into. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was it a mare? That would be my guess.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhon#Battle_with_Zeus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16803" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5027" RevisionGUID="c8e43314-ac24-4797-86ef-4783407c20fd" CreationDate="2018-07-10T00:57:49.270" UserId="4271" Text="What animal did Demeter transform into?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16804" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5027" RevisionGUID="c8e43314-ac24-4797-86ef-4783407c20fd" CreationDate="2018-07-10T00:57:49.270" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|animals|monsters|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16805" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5028" RevisionGUID="d0f300bf-8bf4-45a1-9849-35761f54e54d" CreationDate="2018-07-10T11:30:20.817" UserId="3373" Text="Apparently, either my research jiu-jitsu is flawed, or the first cylinder is a forgery. First of all, it does not resemble any of the Cuneiform writings that are historically known, secondarily there is no such item in the VA (I checked the items archive online and JSTOR for any notice of VA item 243). If you want to know more about Sumerians, I recommend more reliable sources (I'm an amateur, critical thinker at best). In these times no planets above Saturn were known, even cities and Ziggurats were constructed in accord with this view. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not much is known about the Sumerian astrological/astronomical system, however much later, Babylonians did have an idea of spatial depth called &quot;assuraku&quot;, is it not enough to call these civilizations highly advanced star-cultures without all the unnecessary superficialities? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rochberg-Halton, F. &quot;Stellar Distances in Early Babylonian Astronomy: A New Perspective on the Hilprecht Text (HS 229).&quot; Journal of Near Eastern Studies 42, no. 3 (1983): 209-17. http://www.jstor.org/stable/545074.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a proof that no other planets above Saturn were known, all architecture modelled after the spheres and universe as it was known did not exceed the number seven: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;James, Peter, and Marinus Anthony Van Der Sluijs. &quot;Ziggurats, Colors, and Planets: Rawlinson Revisited.&quot; Journal of Cuneiform Studies 60 (2008): 57-79. http://www.jstor.org/stable/25608622&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/8YN5L.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/0D4SP.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/T9vCr.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16806" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5028" RevisionGUID="04176943-e667-402b-bff1-0c8e9e08b4cf" CreationDate="2018-07-10T11:50:11.070" UserId="3373" Comment="added 781 characters in body" Text="Apparently, either my research jiu-jitsu is flawed, or the first cylinder is a forgery. First of all, it does not resemble any of the Cuneiform writings that are historically known, secondarily there is no such item in the VA (I checked the items archive online and JSTOR for any notice of VA item 243). If you want to know more about Sumerians, I recommend more reliable sources (I'm an amateur, critical thinker at best). In these times no planets above Saturn were known, even cities and Ziggurats were constructed in accord with this view. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not much is known about the Sumerian astrological/astronomical system, however much later, Babylonians did have an idea of spatial depth called &quot;assuraku&quot;, is it not enough to call these civilizations highly advanced star-cultures without all the unnecessary superficialities? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rochberg-Halton, F. &quot;Stellar Distances in Early Babylonian Astronomy: A New Perspective on the Hilprecht Text (HS 229).&quot; Journal of Near Eastern Studies 42, no. 3 (1983): 209-17. http://www.jstor.org/stable/545074.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a proof that no other planets above Saturn were known, all architecture modelled after the spheres and universe as it was known did not exceed the number seven: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;James, Peter, and Marinus Anthony Van Der Sluijs. &quot;Ziggurats, Colors, and Planets: Rawlinson Revisited.&quot; Journal of Cuneiform Studies 60 (2008): 57-79. http://www.jstor.org/stable/25608622&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the Stars, Thirty-Six of them were of great referential significance for the Babylonians &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][5]][5]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][6]][6]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][7]][7]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][8]][8]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][9]][9]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Van Der Waerden, B. L. &quot;Babylonian Astronomy. II. The Thirty-Six Stars.&quot; Journal of Near Eastern Studies 8, no. 1 (1949): 6-26. http://www.jstor.org/stable/542436.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/8YN5L.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/0D4SP.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/T9vCr.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/JcAHj.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/9W9jf.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/JRqoo.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/c34LD.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/DI0uh.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/UT8Gc.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16807" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5028" RevisionGUID="f9db7fcd-00b3-4eb4-80fb-1d014e1e101a" CreationDate="2018-07-10T12:19:52.343" UserId="3373" Comment="added 829 characters in body" Text="Apparently, either my research jiu-jitsu is flawed, or the first cylinder is a forgery. First of all, it does not resemble any of the Cuneiform writings that are historically known, secondarily there is no such item in the VA (I checked the items archive online and JSTOR for any notice of VA item 243). If you want to know more about Sumerians, I recommend more reliable sources (I'm an amateur, critical thinker at best). In these times no planets above Saturn were known, even cities and Ziggurats were constructed in accord with this view. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not much is known about the Sumerian astrological/astronomical system, however much later, Babylonians did have an idea of spatial depth called &quot;assuraku&quot;, is it not enough to call these civilizations highly advanced star-cultures without all the unnecessary superficialities? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rochberg-Halton, F. &quot;Stellar Distances in Early Babylonian Astronomy: A New Perspective on the Hilprecht Text (HS 229).&quot; Journal of Near Eastern Studies 42, no. 3 (1983): 209-17. http://www.jstor.org/stable/545074.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a proof that no other planets above Saturn were known, all architecture modelled after the spheres and universe as it was known did not exceed the number seven: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;James, Peter, and Marinus Anthony Van Der Sluijs. &quot;Ziggurats, Colors, and Planets: Rawlinson Revisited.&quot; Journal of Cuneiform Studies 60 (2008): 57-79. http://www.jstor.org/stable/25608622&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the Stars, Thirty-Six of them were of great referential significance for the Babylonians &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][5]][5]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][6]][6]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][7]][7]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][8]][8]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][9]][9]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Van Der Waerden, B. L. &quot;Babylonian Astronomy. II. The Thirty-Six Stars.&quot; Journal of Near Eastern Studies 8, no. 1 (1949): 6-26. http://www.jstor.org/stable/542436.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**I've just discovered something while looking at all this and comparing it to old Arabic constellations in Stellarium. The &quot;First Lucky Star of the King&quot; in Arabic starlore is Alpha Aquarius. Alpha Aquarius is a Star of Ea - Gu.la in the Tenth Month of Tebitu. La, i'lu is designating a 'Deity'.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][10]][10]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][11]][11]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is also a prefix for every deity:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][12]][12]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://archive.org/stream/MN40053ucmf_5#page/n195/mode/2up&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hammurabi, Anton Deimel, Alfred Pohl, R. Follet, and E. Bergmann. 1930. Codex Hammurabi. Roma: Pontificium Institutum Biblicum. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/8YN5L.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/0D4SP.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/T9vCr.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/JcAHj.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/9W9jf.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/JRqoo.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/c34LD.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/DI0uh.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/UT8Gc.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/twMyH.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/vTXo2.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/1zPW9.jpg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Interesting, huh?**" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16808" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5028" RevisionGUID="09f38dc4-5015-4f6e-b4f0-66d233409125" CreationDate="2018-07-10T12:26:25.013" UserId="3373" Comment="added 829 characters in body" Text="Apparently, either my research jiu-jitsu is flawed, or the first cylinder is a forgery. First of all, it does not resemble any of the Cuneiform writings that are historically known, secondarily there is no such item in the VA (I checked the items archive online and JSTOR for any notice of VA item 243). If you want to know more about Sumerians, I recommend more reliable sources (I'm an amateur, critical thinker at best). In these times no planets above Saturn were known, even cities and Ziggurats were constructed in accord with this view. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not much is known about the Sumerian astrological/astronomical system, however much later, Babylonians did have an idea of spatial depth called &quot;assuraku&quot;, is it not enough to call these civilizations highly advanced star-cultures without all the unnecessary superficialities? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rochberg-Halton, F. &quot;Stellar Distances in Early Babylonian Astronomy: A New Perspective on the Hilprecht Text (HS 229).&quot; Journal of Near Eastern Studies 42, no. 3 (1983): 209-17. http://www.jstor.org/stable/545074.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a proof that no other planets above Saturn were known, all architecture modelled after the spheres and universe as it was known did not exceed the number seven: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;James, Peter, and Marinus Anthony Van Der Sluijs. &quot;Ziggurats, Colors, and Planets: Rawlinson Revisited.&quot; Journal of Cuneiform Studies 60 (2008): 57-79. http://www.jstor.org/stable/25608622&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the Stars, Thirty-Six of them were of great referential significance for the Babylonians &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][5]][5]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][6]][6]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][7]][7]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][8]][8]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][9]][9]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Van Der Waerden, B. L. &quot;Babylonian Astronomy. II. The Thirty-Six Stars.&quot; Journal of Near Eastern Studies 8, no. 1 (1949): 6-26. http://www.jstor.org/stable/542436.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**I've just discovered something while looking at all this and comparing it to old Arabic constellations in Stellarium. The &quot;First Lucky Star of the King&quot; in Arabic starlore is Alpha Aquarius. Alpha Aquarius is a Star of Ea - Gu.la in the Tenth Month of Tebitu. La, i'lu is designating a 'Deity'.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][10]][10]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][11]][11]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is also a prefix for every deity:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][12]][12]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://archive.org/stream/MN40053ucmf_5#page/n195/mode/2up&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hammurabi, Anton Deimel, Alfred Pohl, R. Follet, and E. Bergmann. 1930. Codex Hammurabi. Roma: Pontificium Institutum Biblicum. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Interesting, huh?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/8YN5L.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/0D4SP.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/T9vCr.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/JcAHj.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/9W9jf.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/JRqoo.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/c34LD.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/DI0uh.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/UT8Gc.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/gGR0G.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/vTXo2.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/1zPW9.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16809" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5029" RevisionGUID="dee78928-c3c7-4357-929d-178c183208be" CreationDate="2018-07-10T18:00:05.780" UserId="2892" Text="&gt; When [Typhon] came rushing towards Olympus, the gods fled in terror to Egypt, where they disguised themselves as animals: Zeus becoming a ram; Apollo, a crow; Dionysus, a goat; **Hera; a white cow**; Artemis, a cat; Aphrodite, a fish; Ares, a boar; Hermes, and ibis, and so on.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: The Greek Myths, 36.a&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Graves was pulling from Ovid:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Typhoeus hastened: but the Gods of Heaven deceptive shapes assumed.  Lo, Jupiter, (As Libyan Ammon's crooked horns attest) was hidden in the leader of a flock; Apollo in a crow; Bacchus in a goat; Diana in a cat; Venus in a fish; Saturnian Juno in a snow-white cow; Cyllenian Hermes in an Ibis' wings.’&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Metamorphosis (Ovid) 5.325 *ff.*][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*There may be alternate sources.  [See [note 3 to Apollodorus 1.6.3 (Frazer translation)][2].]*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D5%3Acard%3D250&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D6%3Asection%3D3#note3" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16810" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5029" RevisionGUID="b2e48e77-bce4-4992-bffc-b633c35e3498" CreationDate="2018-07-10T18:11:38.157" UserId="2892" Comment="added 286 characters in body" Text="&gt; When [Typhon] came rushing towards Olympus, the gods fled in terror to Egypt, where they disguised themselves as animals: Zeus becoming a ram; Apollo, a crow; Dionysus, a goat; **Hera; a white cow**; Artemis, a cat; Aphrodite, a fish; Ares, a boar; Hermes, and ibis, and so on.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: The Greek Myths, 36.a&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Graves was pulling from Ovid:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Typhoeus hastened: but the Gods of Heaven deceptive shapes assumed.  Lo, Jupiter, (As Libyan Ammon's crooked horns attest) was hidden in the leader of a flock; Apollo in a crow; Bacchus in a goat; Diana in a cat; Venus in a fish; Saturnian Juno in a snow-white cow; Cyllenian Hermes in an Ibis' wings.’&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Metamorphosis (Ovid) 5.325 *ff.*][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*There may be alternate sources.  [See [note 3 to Apollodorus 1.6.3 (Frazer translation)][2].]*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This transformation is a reflection of [Io][3], whom Zeus transformed into a white cow, and Hera claimed for her property, setting [Argus Panoptes][4] to guard her.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D5%3Acard%3D250&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D6%3Asection%3D3#note3&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Io_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argus_Panoptes#Mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16811" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5029" RevisionGUID="626a641d-de61-424f-b8bc-7873b6d09c70" CreationDate="2018-07-10T20:15:18.717" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 78 characters in body" Text="I can't find anything on Demeter at present.  Wikipedia seems to be drawing from Ovid:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Typhoeus hastened: but the Gods of Heaven deceptive shapes assumed.  Lo, Jupiter, (As Libyan Ammon's crooked horns attest) was hidden in the leader of a flock; Apollo in a crow; Bacchus in a goat; Diana in a cat; Venus in a fish; Saturnian Juno in a snow-white cow; Cyllenian Hermes in an Ibis' wings.’&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Metamorphosis (Ovid) 5.325 *ff.*][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Graves often drew from multiple sources for any given account, and was incredibly thorough.  Absence of Demeter from his account suggests her transformation was not treated in any surviving texts or commentaries on lost texts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When [Typhon] came rushing towards Olympus, the gods fled in terror to Egypt, where they disguised themselves as animals: Zeus becoming a ram; Apollo, a crow; Dionysus, a goat; Hera; a white cow; Artemis, a cat; Aphrodite, a fish; Ares, a boar; Hermes, and ibis, and so on.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: The Greek Myths, 36.a&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*There may be alternate sources, but not all will be readily available online.  [See [note 3 to Apollodorus 1.6.3 (Frazer translation)][2].]*  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D5%3Acard%3D250&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D6%3Asection%3D3#note3&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Io_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argus_Panoptes#Mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16812" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5029" RevisionGUID="35b84f3d-2d47-45bf-b4f4-eeff430f5fc2" CreationDate="2018-07-10T20:22:55.727" UserId="2892" Comment="added 7 characters in body" Text="I can't find anything on Demeter at present.  Wikipedia seems to be drawing partly from Ovid:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Typhoeus hastened: but the Gods of Heaven deceptive shapes assumed.  Lo, Jupiter, (As Libyan Ammon's crooked horns attest) was hidden in the leader of a flock; Apollo in a crow; Bacchus in a goat; Diana in a cat; Venus in a fish; Saturnian Juno in a snow-white cow; Cyllenian Hermes in an Ibis' wings.’&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Metamorphosis (Ovid) 5.325 *ff.*][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Graves often drew from multiple sources for any given account, and was incredibly thorough.  Absence of Demeter from his account suggests her transformation was not treated in any surviving texts or commentaries on lost texts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When [Typhon] came rushing towards Olympus, the gods fled in terror to Egypt, where they disguised themselves as animals: Zeus becoming a ram; Apollo, a crow; Dionysus, a goat; Hera; a white cow; Artemis, a cat; Aphrodite, a fish; Ares, a boar; Hermes, and ibis, and so on.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: The Greek Myths, 36.a&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*There may be alternate sources, but not all will be readily available online.  [See [note 3 to Apollodorus 1.6.3 (Frazer translation)][2].]*  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D5%3Acard%3D250&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D6%3Asection%3D3#note3&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Io_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argus_Panoptes#Mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16813" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5029" RevisionGUID="fc193c3d-eb01-40cc-9e40-3119cb36173e" CreationDate="2018-07-10T20:30:40.783" UserId="2892" Comment="added 7 characters in body" Text="I can't find anything on Demeter at present.  Wikipedia seems to be drawing from the [Metamorphoses of Antoninus Liberalis][1], which has no mention of the additional divine transformations.  There is a similar, alternate list from Ovid:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Typhoeus hastened: but the Gods of Heaven deceptive shapes assumed.  Lo, Jupiter, (As Libyan Ammon's crooked horns attest) was hidden in the leader of a flock; Apollo in a crow; Bacchus in a goat; Diana in a cat; Venus in a fish; Saturnian Juno in a snow-white cow; Cyllenian Hermes in an Ibis' wings.’&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Metamorphosis (Ovid) 5.325 *ff.*][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Graves offers an account identical to the Ovid:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When [Typhon] came rushing towards Olympus, the gods fled in terror to Egypt, where they disguised themselves as animals: Zeus becoming a ram; Apollo, a crow; Dionysus, a goat; Hera; a white cow; Artemis, a cat; Aphrodite, a fish; Ares, a boar; Hermes, and ibis, and so on.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: The Greek Myths, 36.a&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*There may be alternate sources, but not all will be readily available online.  [See [note 3 to Apollodorus 1.6.3 (Frazer translation)][3].]*  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So far, I've found nothing on Demeter transforming during this event, and it seems unlikely there is an account.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=9_Eolzuv0eQC&amp;pg=PA87#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D5%3Acard%3D250&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D6%3Asection%3D3#note3" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16814" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5029" RevisionGUID="6a356cd1-fd1c-4829-a7f8-bb36963bb8b9" CreationDate="2018-07-10T20:43:05.500" UserId="2892" Comment="added 7 characters in body" Text="I can't find anything on Demeter at present.  Wikipedia seems to be drawing from the [Metamorphoses of Antoninus Liberalis][1], which has no mention of additional divine transformations:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollo became a hawk, Hermes and ibis, Ares became a fish, the lepidotus, Artemis a cat, Dionysus took the shape of a goat, Heracles a fawn, Hephaestus an ox, and Leto a shrew mouse. The rest of the gods each took on what transformations they could. &#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [The Metamorphoses of Antoninus Liberalis; Typhon][1] (trans. Francis Celoria)&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Antoninus][2] attributes this story to a lost work of [Nicander][3]'s, Heteroeumena (&quot;Metamorphoses&quot;), but there is an account in Ovid, earlier than Antonius, which may draw partly from the same source:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Typhoeus hastened: but the Gods of Heaven deceptive shapes assumed.  Lo, Jupiter, (As Libyan Ammon's crooked horns attest) was hidden in the leader of a flock; Apollo in a crow; Bacchus in a goat; Diana in a cat; Venus in a fish; Saturnian Juno in a snow-white cow; Cyllenian Hermes in an Ibis' wings.’&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Metamorphosis (Ovid) 5.325 *ff.*][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Graves offers an account identical to the Ovid:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When [Typhon] came rushing towards Olympus, the gods fled in terror to Egypt, where they disguised themselves as animals: Zeus becoming a ram; Apollo, a crow; Dionysus, a goat; Hera; a white cow; Artemis, a cat; Aphrodite, a fish; Ares, a boar; Hermes, and ibis, and so on.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: The Greek Myths, 36.a&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*There may be alternate sources, but not all will be readily available online.  [See [note 3 to Apollodorus 1.6.3 (Frazer translation)][5].]*  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So far, I've found nothing on Demeter transforming during this event, and it seems unlikely there is an account, but I'll continue to run down sources and see what I find!  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=9_Eolzuv0eQC&amp;pg=PA87#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoninus_Liberalis&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicander&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D5%3Acard%3D250&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D6%3Asection%3D3#note3" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16815" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5029" RevisionGUID="e6365a33-c84d-40a1-a54f-cd1d95aa9a01" CreationDate="2018-07-10T20:57:25.837" UserId="2892" Comment="added 7 characters in body" Text="I can't find anything on Demeter at present.  Wikipedia seems to be drawing from the [Metamorphoses of Antoninus Liberalis][1], which has no mention of additional divine transformations:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollo became a hawk, Hermes and ibis, Ares became a fish, the lepidotus, Artemis a cat, Dionysus took the shape of a goat, Heracles a fawn, Hephaestus an ox, and Leto a shrew mouse. The rest of the gods each took on what transformations they could. &#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [The Metamorphoses of Antoninus Liberalis; Typhon][1] (trans. Francis Celoria)&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Antoninus][2] attributes this story to a lost work of [Nicander][3]'s, Heteroeumena (&quot;Metamorphoses&quot;), but there is an account in Ovid, earlier than Antonius, which may draw partly from the same source:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Typhoeus hastened: but the Gods of Heaven deceptive shapes assumed.  Lo, Jupiter, (As Libyan Ammon's crooked horns attest) was hidden in the leader of a flock; Apollo in a crow; Bacchus in a goat; Diana in a cat; Venus in a fish; Saturnian Juno in a snow-white cow; Cyllenian Hermes in an Ibis' wings.’&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Metamorphosis (Ovid) 5.325 *ff.*][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Graves offers an account identical to the Ovid:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When [Typhon] came rushing towards Olympus, the gods fled in terror to Egypt, where they disguised themselves as animals: Zeus becoming a ram; Apollo, a crow; Dionysus, a goat; Hera; a white cow; Artemis, a cat; Aphrodite, a fish; Ares, a boar; Hermes, and ibis, and so on.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: The Greek Myths, 36.a&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There may be alternate sources, but not all will be readily available online. So far, I've found nothing on Demeter transforming during this event, and it seems unlikely there is an account, but I'll continue to run down sources and see what I find!  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;There is a worthwhile note on this subject, drawn from Lucan [See [note 3 to Apollodorus 1.6.3 (Frazer translation)][5]].  Lucan's thesis is that these transformations were a device to explain the Egyptian worship of gods with animal forms. Presumably Hera becomes a cow because [Hathor][6] is seen as her analog. Demeter was heavily associated with [Isis][7], who is not commonly associated with an animal form, and that may be a reason she is omitted.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=9_Eolzuv0eQC&amp;pg=PA87#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoninus_Liberalis&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicander&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D5%3Acard%3D250&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D6%3Asection%3D3#note3&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hathor&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isis#Relationships_with_other_gods" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16819" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5031" RevisionGUID="ca32beb5-c22c-49ab-81f9-0fc9bc5a9b05" CreationDate="2018-07-12T19:59:22.317" UserId="5199" Text="There is a canonical correspondence between some Greek and Roman gods and goddesses, for example Ares and Mars.&#xD;&#xA;However, these two were originally different deities and [quite different in nature](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/53/5199).&#xD;&#xA;My question concerns pairs of Greek and Roman gods like this, which were originally different but were later identified.&#xD;&#xA;This excludes Apollo(n), as this god seems to have been always the same, not identified later between the two mythologies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the first known (written or other) identification of a Greek and Roman god?&#xD;&#xA;How does the identification manifest itself?&#xD;&#xA;Is it explicit (&quot;We call it Iuppiter, they call it Zeus&quot;), is it a Greek story retold with Roman names, or something else?&#xD;&#xA;An unattested identification is also fine if it is referenced by a later source.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I took a look at the questions about [differences between the pantheons](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/239/5199) and [the transfer of the Greek mythology to Rome](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/110/5199), but they do not seem to address my question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I asked about the same thing [half a year ago on the Latin site](https://latin.stackexchange.com/q/6033/79) but there have been no responses yet." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16820" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5031" RevisionGUID="ca32beb5-c22c-49ab-81f9-0fc9bc5a9b05" CreationDate="2018-07-12T19:59:22.317" UserId="5199" Text="When was a pair of Greek and Roman gods first identified?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16821" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5031" RevisionGUID="ca32beb5-c22c-49ab-81f9-0fc9bc5a9b05" CreationDate="2018-07-12T19:59:22.317" UserId="5199" Text="|greek|comparative|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16822" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5032" RevisionGUID="82ecdab0-bc7b-4ce1-ac79-6e40a752257d" CreationDate="2018-07-12T20:08:18.410" UserId="3244" Text="From the birth myth of [Arion](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arion_(mythology)), we are told (Pseudo-Apollodorus) that the horse was birthed by Demeter while she was in 'the likeness of a Fury'. &#xA;&#xA;We are also told that [Despoina](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Despoina) is the daughter of Demeter and Horse-Poseidon. &#xA;&#xA;Karl Kerenyi noted that she could take on the form of either an ear of grain, or a mare.&#xA;&#xA;So it seems that your guess is right." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16823" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5033" RevisionGUID="0b106957-d38f-409e-9b1c-ebc02d0a314e" CreationDate="2018-07-12T20:17:55.690" UserId="3244" Text="In the Ramayana, when [Ram](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rama) battled [Ravan](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravana) to free his wife Sita, during the battle Ravan's son Megnaad (also called Indrajeet, for defeating [Indra](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indra), king of the Devas) fired upon Ram's army the Naagpaash, a weapon which would bind the targets with coils of venomous snakes.&#xA;&#xA;Ram, seeing his army's plight, called upon [Garuda](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garuda), mount of [Vishnu](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vishnu), who was the mortal enemy of snakes, who are all the snakes tying down Ram's army.&#xA;&#xA;Of course, this technically doesn't answer your question, since Ram and his brother Lakshman were the only humans in his army, which was made mostly of monkeys and bears." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16825" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5034" RevisionGUID="03928c48-9ac8-4234-9437-d08937a64dc0" CreationDate="2018-07-14T03:07:49.997" UserId="5201" Text="I have heard of the story of 1001 Nights, and I know there have been tons of films made based on the stories in it.  However, I am having difficulty finding a film that actually uses as a framework the fact that the king takes a bride every day and then slays her, then Sheherazade comes and wins his heart with her stories.  Are there any films with this framework, and if so, would you mind listing it/them for me?  Thank you." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16826" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5034" RevisionGUID="03928c48-9ac8-4234-9437-d08937a64dc0" CreationDate="2018-07-14T03:07:49.997" UserId="5201" Text="1001 Nights - Movie faithful to the outer story?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16827" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5034" RevisionGUID="03928c48-9ac8-4234-9437-d08937a64dc0" CreationDate="2018-07-14T03:07:49.997" UserId="5201" Text="|arabic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16828" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5035" RevisionGUID="c2305eee-8fc6-439c-bd6a-89dc13dbec40" CreationDate="2018-07-16T10:15:11.633" UserDisplayName="user5207" Text="In images from Roman to contemporary Britain, mermaids are usually not wearing any clothes. Other types of fairies, spirits, and gods are usually depicted at least partly dressed. Why then are mermaids naked? Or aren't they?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are mermaids naked in written sources like fairy tales and legends, too? And do they explain the nudity?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16829" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5035" RevisionGUID="c2305eee-8fc6-439c-bd6a-89dc13dbec40" CreationDate="2018-07-16T10:15:11.633" UserDisplayName="user5207" Text="Why are mermaids naked?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16830" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5035" RevisionGUID="c2305eee-8fc6-439c-bd6a-89dc13dbec40" CreationDate="2018-07-16T10:15:11.633" UserDisplayName="user5207" Text="|celtic|fairies|european-folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16831" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5036" RevisionGUID="d36e124a-b66e-4b17-9cdf-cbccfdb6fe6c" CreationDate="2018-07-16T13:52:47.163" UserId="666" Text="Well, it depends. A big problem here is that the sources are not entirely clear on the classification of different non-humans. Thus, what in modern minds (perhaps influenced by role playing games) are differing monsters, such as giants and trolls, are sometimes indistinguishable in Norse sources.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, depending on your interpretation, there are at least two ways to see the origins of trolls:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - If you see trolls as a clearly distinct category, where they would be a race rather close to humans in size, knowledgeable in magic (in modern continental Nordic languages, the word for &quot;magic&quot; is derived from &quot;troll&quot;), possibly demonic, then no, there is no particular origin for them. They simply exist.&#xD;&#xA; - If you instead see &quot;troll&quot; as more of less a synonym of &quot;jötun&quot;, then their origin can be found in Snorri's *Edda*: They were the offspring of [Ymir][1], a man and a woman sprung from each of his armpits, and more were generated from a joining of his legs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ymir" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16832" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3531" RevisionGUID="63960045-4bad-4f20-8017-d74b539dd7c2" CreationDate="2018-07-17T08:51:32.300" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="16833" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5037" RevisionGUID="4cff2feb-385f-43fc-a4ff-0f647ea982db" CreationDate="2018-07-18T22:24:57.433" UserId="292" Text="A number of reasons: mermaids are part of nature, not culture, [Classical depictions][1] of marine deities and other spirits show them naked, and because mermaids are supposed to be sexy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Amphitrite.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16834" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5038" RevisionGUID="3209b4ca-551b-4e2d-8088-3c35b305dcbe" CreationDate="2018-07-19T04:48:44.183" UserId="5213" Text="There's a Greek belief about choosing your parents, your life, and the problems in the world. As mentioned in this video. I'm trying to find the full story/myth. Where can I look?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://youtu.be/Pvg9fSp1lEI?list=ULwialyRxq7YE&amp;t=829" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16835" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5038" RevisionGUID="3209b4ca-551b-4e2d-8088-3c35b305dcbe" CreationDate="2018-07-19T04:48:44.183" UserId="5213" Text="Where is the Ancient Greek belief of Pre-Existence referenced?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16836" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5038" RevisionGUID="3209b4ca-551b-4e2d-8088-3c35b305dcbe" CreationDate="2018-07-19T04:48:44.183" UserId="5213" Text="|greek|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16837" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5038" RevisionGUID="54828c09-a43e-4bb0-a877-27ffb79a6b67" CreationDate="2018-07-19T12:06:50.833" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved fomatting." Text="There's a Greek belief about choosing your parents, your life, and the problems in the world. As mentioned in this video. I'm trying to find the full story/myth. Where can I look?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[TEDxSinCity - Dave Logan - Make a Genius Tribe (YouTube)](https://youtu.be/Pvg9fSp1lEI?list=ULwialyRxq7YE&amp;t=829)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16838" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5039" RevisionGUID="72602fa7-3b72-4ba8-891c-6c8bacfdeced" CreationDate="2018-07-19T21:09:04.947" UserId="2892" Text="The [Myth of Er][1] from Plato's Republic ([10.614 ff][2]) is likely what you're looking for.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Wikipedia gives a good synopsis, but I'll look to pull some excerpts directly from the source material on Perseus.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_Er#Er's_tale&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0168%3Abook%3D10%3Asection%3D614a" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16839" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5039" RevisionGUID="9836cd07-b170-4537-a1dc-393a34981070" CreationDate="2018-07-19T21:20:44.887" UserId="2892" Comment="added 1686 characters in body" Text="The [Myth of Er][1] from Plato's Republic ([10.614 ff][2]) is likely what you're looking for.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia gives a good synopsis, but here is an excerpt from the source material on Perseus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;He said it was a strange, pitiful, and ridiculous spectacle, as the choice was determined for the most part by the habits of their former lives. He saw the soul that had been Orpheus’, he said, selecting the life of a swan, because from hatred of the tribe of women, owing to his death at their hands, it was unwilling to be conceived and born of a woman. He saw the soul of Thamyras choosing the life of a nightingale; and he saw a swan changing to the choice of the life of man, and similarly other musical animals.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The soul that drew the twentieth lot chose the life of a lion; it was the soul of Ajax, the son of Telamon, which, because it remembered the adjudication of the arms of Achilles, was unwilling to become a man. The next, the soul of Agamemnon, likewise from hatred of the human race because of its sufferings, substituted the life of an eagle. Drawing one of the middle lots the soul of &#xD;&#xA;Atalanta caught sight of the great honors attached to an athlete's life and could not pass them by but snatched at them.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;After her, he said, he saw the soul of Epeius, the son of Panopeus, entering into the nature of an arts and crafts woman. Far off in the rear he saw the soul of the buffoon Thersites clothing itself in the body of an ape. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;And it fell out that the soul of Odysseus drew the last lot of all and came to make its choice, and, from memory of its former toils having flung away ambition, went about for a long time in quest of the life of an ordinary citizen who minded his own business...&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Plato *The Republic* [10.620a-c][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After making the choices and having them affirmed by the Fates, the soul must forget their former life before being reborn:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And after it had passed through that, when the others also had passed, they all journeyed to the Plain of Oblivion, through a terrible and stifling heat, for it was bare of trees and all plants, and there they camped at eventide by the [River of Forgetfulness][4], whose waters no vessel can contain. They were all required to drink a measure of the water, and those who were not saved by their good sense drank more than the measure, and each one as he drank forgot all things.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Plato *The Republic* [10.621a][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_Er#Er's_tale&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0168%3Abook%3D10%3Asection%3D614a&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0168%3Abook%3D10%3Asection%3D620a&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethe&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0168%3Abook%3D10%3Asection%3D621a" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16840" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5037" RevisionGUID="10ef8be2-6bcb-47d5-a564-7bae1ab0e632" CreationDate="2018-07-19T21:30:44.607" UserId="2892" Comment="added the graphic!" Text="A number of reasons: mermaids are part of nature, not culture, [Classical depictions][1] of marine deities and other spirits show them naked, and because mermaids are supposed to be sexy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Amphitrite.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/4FKmd.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16841" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4583" RevisionGUID="50aaa408-d03e-43e4-968c-84bbb5d1480b" CreationDate="2018-07-20T15:11:02.213" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="16842" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5040" RevisionGUID="c2f766c1-bda3-4391-b6ad-ecd5a7b53878" CreationDate="2018-07-20T20:04:54.240" UserId="3989" Text="&gt;It is the law for one who is defiled by shedding blood to be barred from speech until he is sprinkled with the blood of a new-born victim by a man who can purify from murder. Long before at other houses I have been thus purified both by victims and by flowing streams. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That's Orestes, in Aeschylus *Eumenides* 448&amp;ndash;52, trans. H. W. Smyth. The victims in question are apparently pigs or piglets (χοιροκτόνοις, &quot;by sacrifices of swine&quot; l. 283). As to the streams, I seem to recall that although it was sufficient purification for most pilgrims to wash extremities in the Castalian spring before approaching the oracle of Delphi, total immersion was indicated for murderers." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16843" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5040" RevisionGUID="e9ef4c82-387f-43e8-9588-13aee9be6ec6" CreationDate="2018-07-20T20:27:56.197" UserId="2892" Comment="added 105 characters in body" Text="&gt;It is the law for one who is defiled by shedding blood to be barred from speech until he is sprinkled with the blood of a new-born victim by a man who can purify from murder. Long before at other houses I have been thus purified both by victims and by flowing streams. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That's Orestes, in [Aeschylus *Eumenides* 448&amp;ndash;52, trans. H. W. Smyth][1]. The victims in question are apparently pigs or piglets ([χοιροκτόνοις][2], &quot;by sacrifices of swine&quot; l. 283). As to the streams, I seem to recall that although it was sufficient purification for most pilgrims to wash extremities in the [Castalian spring][3] before approaching the oracle of Delphi, total immersion was indicated for murderers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0006%3Acard%3D436&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dxoirokto%2Fnos&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castalian_Spring" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16844" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5039" RevisionGUID="cec0adc5-6d3e-42e3-adc8-60d111cb9a53" CreationDate="2018-07-20T20:41:05.687" UserId="2892" Comment="added 502 characters in body" Text="The [Myth of Er][1] from Plato's Republic ([10.614 ff][2]) is likely what you're looking for.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia gives a good synopsis, but here is an excerpt from the source material on Perseus, with some added links to provide context on their next life choices:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;He said it was a strange, pitiful, and ridiculous spectacle, as the choice was determined for the most part by the habits of their former lives. He saw the soul that had been Orpheus’, he said, selecting the life of a swan, because from hatred of the tribe of women, [owing to his death at their hands][3], it was unwilling to be conceived and born of a woman. He saw the soul of [Thamyras][4] choosing the life of a nightingale; and he saw a swan changing to the choice of the life of man, and similarly other musical animals.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The soul that drew the twentieth lot chose the life of a lion; it was the soul of [Ajax, the son of Telamon][5], which, because it remembered the adjudication of the arms of Achilles, was unwilling to become a man. The next, the soul of [Agamemnon][6], likewise from hatred of the human race because of its sufferings, substituted the life of an eagle. Drawing one of the middle lots the soul of [Atalanta][7] caught sight of the great honors attached to an athlete's life and could not pass them by but snatched at them.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;After her, he said, he saw the soul of [Epeius, the son of Panopeus][8], entering into the nature of an arts and crafts woman. Far off in the rear he saw the soul of the buffoon [Thersites][9] clothing itself in the body of an ape. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;And it fell out that the soul of [Odysseus][10] drew the last lot of all and came to make its choice, and, from memory of its former toils having flung away ambition, went about for a long time in quest of the life of an ordinary citizen who minded his own business...&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Plato *The Republic* [10.620a-c][11]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After making the choices and having them affirmed by the Fates, the soul must forget their former life before being reborn:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And after it had passed through that, when the others also had passed, they all journeyed to the Plain of Oblivion, through a terrible and stifling heat, for it was bare of trees and all plants, and there they camped at eventide by the [River of Forgetfulness][12], whose waters no vessel can contain. They were all required to drink a measure of the water, and those who were not saved by their good sense drank more than the measure, and each one as he drank forgot all things.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Plato *The Republic* [10.621a][13]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_Er#Er's_tale&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0168%3Abook%3D10%3Asection%3D614a&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orpheus#Death&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thamyris&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_the_Great&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agamemnon&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atalanta&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epeius&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thersites&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odysseus&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0168%3Abook%3D10%3Asection%3D620a&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethe&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0168%3Abook%3D10%3Asection%3D621a" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16846" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2129" RevisionGUID="f61fbeb4-d822-44a4-9898-505302d12c48" CreationDate="2018-07-23T08:14:48.893" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="16847" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5041" RevisionGUID="9cdf1c26-56ba-4967-ab84-3711b1fb3932" CreationDate="2018-07-23T16:58:07.930" UserId="5222" Text="It makes sense that the &quot;Bigfoot&quot; account by Leif was either grossly exaggerated or totally lied about by people quoting the saga. If I am wrong and it does show up in the saga then please correct me, for I don't have the saga and cannot say for sure. But what I can say for sure is that Leif would have known about troll myth. According to Viking myth a troll is described as being towering, hairy, stinky, and prone to howling. Also they where said to hurl rocks and branches at travelers and knock on trees. Sound familiar? If Leif had encountered a Bigfoot I believe he would have called it what the scandanavian people had always called them. Trolls." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16849" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4942" RevisionGUID="d4a53630-a224-47d8-9d6a-e02a96c96004" CreationDate="2018-07-24T13:01:05.260" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="16850" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5042" RevisionGUID="14962bd2-c190-46fd-bad5-e289886c13fe" CreationDate="2018-07-24T18:00:06.423" UserId="2687" Text="In the modern day, leprechauns are usually associated with a highly rigid depiction: wearing green, hat, buckled shoes, red beard, pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some parts of this may come from stereotypes of Irish people (probably the beard and the green clothing to some extent), and some come from folklore. For instance, in *Fairy and Folktales of the Irish Peasantry*, Yeats quotes a poem by Allingham, which clearly gives us the gold: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This keen miser-fairy hath, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Hid in mountains, woods, and rocks, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Ruin&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and round-tow'r, cave and rath, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;And where the cormorants build;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; From times of old &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Guarded by him; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Each of them fill'd &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Full to the brim&#xD;&#xA;&gt; With gold!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The buckles are also mentioned here, although they are silver. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Silver buckles to his hose.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As are some other aspects of the genteel dress. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, I can't find any mention of a rainbow, and I can't think of any particular reason for it to become associated with Irish fairies of any sort.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the origin of the association of leprechauns with rainbows? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16851" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5042" RevisionGUID="14962bd2-c190-46fd-bad5-e289886c13fe" CreationDate="2018-07-24T18:00:06.423" UserId="2687" Text="Whence comes the association of Leprechauns with rainbows?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16852" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5042" RevisionGUID="14962bd2-c190-46fd-bad5-e289886c13fe" CreationDate="2018-07-24T18:00:06.423" UserId="2687" Text="|irish|fairies|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16853" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5043" RevisionGUID="778e4149-043a-4e1c-9425-d84d676de859" CreationDate="2018-07-24T20:09:39.610" UserId="5225" Text="This would be more of a comment than an answer, but since I don't have the reputation yet...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I often thought along the same lines, and I ended up here because of this item&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://timelineauctions.com/lot/mercury-applique/117293/&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;which is claimed to be a representation of Mercury.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm no expert, but I don't remember seeing Hermes standing with the legs in that position - which is, instead, strikingly Krishna-esque.&#xD;&#xA;It's probably nothing, but I found it curious." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16854" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5043" RevisionGUID="7b1e2ae2-3a47-4af6-9791-430de3b9ea73" CreationDate="2018-07-24T20:20:13.503" UserId="2892" Comment="added a cropped, reduced-size version of the photo for archival purposes (won't stay on auction forever.)" Text="This would be more of a comment than an answer, but since I don't have the reputation yet...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I often thought along the same lines, and I ended up here because of this item, which is claimed to be a representation of Mercury:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![ROMANO-CELTIC MERCURY APPLIQUE 1st century AD][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: *https://timelineauctions.com/lot/mercury-applique/117293/*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm no expert, but I don't remember seeing Hermes standing with the legs in that position - which is, instead, strikingly Krishna-esque.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's probably nothing, but I found it curious.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/pgVVh.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16855" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1140" RevisionGUID="283d44c3-7d2e-4045-a972-76514fb6b19b" CreationDate="2018-07-24T22:19:20.610" UserId="5220" Comment="I've added a link to the Wikipedia. " Text="The myth of [Pandora][1] is basically the story of a woman who is given a [box][2] by the gods, and told not to open it. Of course, she opens the box, and evil is released to the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it possible that the box represents a womb? I think that makes a lot of sense, because it's a cavity with an opening, and things come out of it (that were never seen on earth before). The myth also is a commentary on gender, because it's a woman who releases evil to the world, and Pandora's husband is at fault only because he is stupid enough to marry her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1125/why-is-it-that-we-say-pandoras-box-so-often-even-thought-it-was-a-jar" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16856" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1140" RevisionGUID="283d44c3-7d2e-4045-a972-76514fb6b19b" CreationDate="2018-07-24T22:19:20.610" Comment="Proposed by 5220 approved by 2774, 967 edit id of 1663" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16857" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5044" RevisionGUID="333afa17-9f92-4eb7-93c2-862c1158cc3b" CreationDate="2018-07-24T23:10:25.583" UserId="5013" Text="According to the “*Enzyklopädie des Märchens*,” Vol 3, in the entry for “Dach” (roof) it is stated on pg. 206 (my translation, loosely paraphrased):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Schwankmärchen [Farcical tales] of Schlaraffenland (AaTh 1930) the roofs are in contrast decked with delicatessens: in the French *Fabel de Cocaigne* (13. Jh.) with fish, bacon, and sausages, in Geiler von Kaisersbergs *Navicula sive speculum fatuorum* (1510/11) with Pfannkuchen [pan-cakes], in Hans Sachens poem *Das Schlauraffenland* (1530) with Fladen [pan-cakes] in *Wrozki* by the Pole Podworzecki (1589) with sides of bacon and dumplings etc. In Hänsel und Gretel the witch’s house is diabolically necessarily built out of bread and with covered with cakes (cf. Mot. F 771. 1. 10: Gingerbread house).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: the house is made of bread, the roof is decked with cake and the windows were made of clear sugar (hellem Zucker). “Gingerbread” probably came from an English translation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From my translation of the [Grimms 1810 Manuscripts][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“Handwritten Note in the 1812 Vol I&#xD;&#xA;Gräter has the Märchen of the sugar-house-let in Schwab. Dial. instead of [the] old woman sits a wolf in [the] house-let.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“1812 Appendix Additions in the 1815 Vol II&#xD;&#xA;Num. 15. (Hänsel und Gretel.) Compare the entrance of nennillo e nennella in the Pentamerone. One also has this beautiful Märchen so, that instead of the old one a wolf in the sugar-house-let sits and still more rhymes with it occur.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“The 1975 Rölleke text states that the origin of the Märchen is uncertain, but since it is in Jacobs handwriting, the source is possibly the Hassenpflug family. At the end of the text there are handwritten notations: “Svend Tomling” and “Nyerup n. 46.” The note refers to Rasmus Nyerups “Verzeichnis der Almuens morskabsbøger” in Iris og Hebe 1795/96, July p.88; no. 46: Svend Tomling. The 1810 text was added to the 1812 Anhang to No. 15 Hansel and Gretel.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoriginalgrimm.com/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16860" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5046" RevisionGUID="0409eaa7-474f-470d-90f2-93761b03e0ff" CreationDate="2018-07-25T09:30:39.530" UserId="5227" Text="Apep's goal is to devour the sun god ra and his son khonsu god of the moon. Seph, osiris and other gods help ra scare off Apep. Apep is god of all darkness, so since the universe is nothing but dark matter. He is immortal he is reborn and comes back. When the solar eclipse happens it means that Apep, is fighting with both Khonsu &amp; Ra. Not just one, so it potentially can mean the end of the world if they both lose. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16866" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="743" RevisionGUID="ed57e78c-fa4d-43bc-ad95-64da4239a559" CreationDate="2018-07-25T10:43:55.193" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="16867" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5044" RevisionGUID="e09e918d-a888-4432-b79a-de59eeffcf37" CreationDate="2018-07-25T13:47:52.647" UserId="5013" Comment="added 115 characters in body" Text="According to the “*Enzyklopädie des Märchens*,” Vol 3, in the entry for “Dach” (roof) it is stated on pg. 206 (my translation, loosely paraphrased):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Schwankmärchen [Farcical tales] of Schlaraffenland (AaTh 1930) the roofs are in contrast decked with delicatessens: in the French *Fabel de Cocaigne* (13. Jh.) with fish, bacon, and sausages, in Geiler von Kaisersbergs *Navicula sive speculum fatuorum* (1510/11) with Pfannkuchen [pan-cakes], in Hans Sachens poem *Das Schlauraffenland* (1530) with Fladen [pan-cakes] in *Wrozki* by the Pole Podworzecki (1589) with sides of bacon and dumplings etc. In Hänsel und Gretel the witch’s house is diabolically necessarily built out of bread and with covered with cakes (cf. Mot. F 771. 1. 10: Gingerbread house).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: the house is made of bread, the roof is decked with cake and the windows were made of clear sugar (hellem Zucker). “Gingerbread” probably came from an English translation. The text of Hänsel und Gretel is from various tellings from Hessen. Told by Henriette Dorothea Wild (1793 – 1867).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From my translation of the [Grimms 1810 Manuscripts][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“Handwritten Note in the 1812 Vol I&#xD;&#xA;Gräter has the Märchen of the sugar-house-let in Schwab. Dial. instead of [the] old woman sits a wolf in [the] house-let.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“1812 Appendix Additions in the 1815 Vol II&#xD;&#xA;Num. 15. (Hänsel und Gretel.) Compare the entrance of nennillo e nennella in the Pentamerone. One also has this beautiful Märchen so, that instead of the old one a wolf in the sugar-house-let sits and still more rhymes with it occur.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“The 1975 Rölleke text states that the origin of the Märchen is uncertain, but since it is in Jacobs handwriting, the source is possibly the Hassenpflug family. At the end of the text there are handwritten notations: “Svend Tomling” and “Nyerup n. 46.” The note refers to Rasmus Nyerups “Verzeichnis der Almuens morskabsbøger” in Iris og Hebe 1795/96, July p.88; no. 46: Svend Tomling. The 1810 text was added to the 1812 Anhang to No. 15 Hansel and Gretel.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoriginalgrimm.com/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16868" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4947" RevisionGUID="e31bb580-fe20-4244-9480-3e4b607f2f09" CreationDate="2018-07-25T21:00:49.770" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="16869" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5048" RevisionGUID="944368f0-3d63-40e9-aa50-13a0eaa87d23" CreationDate="2018-07-27T14:57:16.533" UserId="5233" Text="Anunnaki - Gods of Sumeria Or fallen Angels??&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found it very interesting that in the earliest civilisation known to us in the historical records, &quot;The Sumerians&quot; have a religion that talks of these Anunnaki coming down from heaven and teaching them all wonders of things. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anunnaki interestingly has been said to mean princely offspring. The devil is known as the prince of the sky.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anyway i found that their might be correlation between fallen angels and the Anunnaki. Its rather coincidental that our faith teaches of a war that ended in one third of the angels falling to earth, whilst in our history we have our first civilisation which where taught by Gods from heaven. Of course these fallen angels would want to be worships in their pride desiring to be as God just as satan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now after reading numbers(13: 28) in the scripture i came across the descendants of Anak who where described as giants in the scripture.  The word Anak  itselfs  sounded eerily similar to the Anunnaki which i had recently been studying and so it got me thinking. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After further reading i came across numbers 13:33 (In  parenthesis though of course) in which i was informed that the Anakites come from the nephilim! So, if we take this all together we can see that;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We have the war of heaven a long time ago and then we also have beings coming from the sky to be worshipped by the Sumerians as Gods also a long time ago. We know the Sumerians called these Gods anunnaki. Is it such a stretch to theorise that the fallen angels of our faith are the &quot;so called Gods&quot; coming to the Sumerians? We know Gods hate for babylon and babylon is really just another form of the sumerian culture which came after sumaria in the same location.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then we read in the bible of a people descendant from anuk who are giant and strong who come from the nephilim. Numbers 13:32&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now of course i dont have to mention that the nephelim are also called the sons of God, and the sons of God is another word for angels.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So it is clear that not only in language is their a similarity between the word anak or anakites and the anunnaki. But also in the relationship between the Anakites being descendants of nephelim and the anakites being heavenly beings. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;i think its probably that like in the bible the anakites are decendant from angels, so to are the anunnaki angels who have fallen from heaven. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16870" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5048" RevisionGUID="a28e1ffe-f4af-4fae-9a7b-dc6c763aaed3" CreationDate="2018-07-27T15:02:43.833" UserId="5233" Comment="edited body" Text="Anunnaki - Gods of Sumeria Or fallen Angels??&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found it very interesting that in the earliest civilisation known to us in the historical records. &quot;The Sumerians&quot; have a religion that talks of these Anunnaki coming down from heaven and teaching them all wonders of things. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found a correlation between fallen angels and the Anunnaki. Its rather coincidental that our faith teaches of a war that ended in one third of the angels falling to earth, whilst in our history we have our first civilisation who are taught by Gods who &quot;came&quot; from the heavens. Perhaps they did not so much come from heaven as they where kicked out. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now after reading numbers(13: 28) in the scripture i came across the descendants of Anak who where described as giants.  The word Anak  itself  sounded eerily similar to the Anunnaki which i had recently been studying and so it got me thinking. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After further reading i came across numbers 13:33 (In  parenthesis though of course) in which i was informed that the Anakites come from the nephilim! So, if we take this all together we can see that;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We have the war of heaven a long time ago and then we also have beings coming from the sky to be worshipped by the Sumerians as Gods; also a long time ago. We know the Sumerians called these Gods anunnaki. Is it such a stretch to theorise that the fallen angels of our faith are the &quot;so called Gods&quot; coming to the Sumerians? We know Gods hate for babylon and babylon is really just another form of the sumerian culture which came after sumaria in the same location.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then we read in the bible of a people descendant from anuk who are giant and strong who come from the nephilim. Numbers 13:32&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now of course i dont have to mention that the nephelim are also called the sons of God, and the sons of God is another word for angels.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So it is clear that not only in language is their a similarity between the word anak or anakites and the anunnaki. But also in the relationship between the Anakites being descendants of nephelim and the anakites being heavenly beings. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;i think its probably that like in the bible the anakites are decendant from angels, so to are the anunnaki angels who have fallen from heaven. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;interesting facts. The Anunnaki interestingly has been said to mean princely offspring. The devil is known as the prince of the sky." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16871" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5049" RevisionGUID="cd44ef3c-098e-4905-aa6f-aec93bc535ad" CreationDate="2018-07-28T00:50:40.483" UserId="2687" Text="In Spanish, the folkloric character who would in English be called &quot;Prince Charming&quot; is known as Príncipe Azul, the Blue Prince.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Spanish Wikipedia claims that the origin is from a Romanian folktale called, roughly, &quot;The Blue Prince of the Teardrop,&quot; however, I can't find this folktale, let alone determine whether it's the the true origin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From what folktale or other source does this character come? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16872" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5049" RevisionGUID="cd44ef3c-098e-4905-aa6f-aec93bc535ad" CreationDate="2018-07-28T00:50:40.483" UserId="2687" Text="What is the folkloric origin of &quot;el príncipe azul&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16873" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5049" RevisionGUID="cd44ef3c-098e-4905-aa6f-aec93bc535ad" CreationDate="2018-07-28T00:50:40.483" UserId="2687" Text="|european-folklore|fairy-tales|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16874" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5049" RevisionGUID="3fd8b29f-85e5-484b-b5cf-72f9c4a0d193" CreationDate="2018-07-28T01:16:55.963" UserId="2687" Comment="deleted 4 characters in body" Text="In Spanish, the folkloric character who would in English be called &quot;Prince Charming&quot; is known as Príncipe Azul, the Blue Prince.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Spanish Wikipedia claims that the origin is from a Romanian folktale called, roughly, &quot;The Blue Prince of the Teardrop,&quot; however, I can't find this folktale, let alone determine whether it's the true origin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From what folktale or other source does this character come? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16879" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4820" RevisionGUID="af0d6bcb-e26c-4a70-8a3b-810ac56bf25f" CreationDate="2018-07-29T00:01:43.973" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="16881" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3227" RevisionGUID="8da2df2e-383e-4330-be9b-37c879d933a6" CreationDate="2018-07-30T14:00:51.817" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="16882" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5051" RevisionGUID="d85d58f2-def1-48ef-a154-f360b06f674f" CreationDate="2018-07-30T17:18:11.920" UserId="5241" Text="In Greek mythology, there is Asteria, the goddess of stars, and a few deities for the &quot;moving stars&quot;. Helios was the god of the sun, and Selene was the goddess of the moon. Otherwise, Ouranos is the god of the heavens, meaning space too." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16883" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4730" RevisionGUID="fe54c1ba-be55-4ec6-80b7-0cde429b1a39" CreationDate="2018-08-01T10:34:50.630" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected spelling &amp; added info" Text="**Ariadne and the Battle of the Brothers**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In one source, Perseus is supposed to have used Medusa's power at least once after Seriphos. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the last third of the second-last book of his epic, the *Dionysiaca*, the Egyptian writer Nonnus narrates the conclusion of a tour of Greece taken by the wine-god Dionysus. At the time, Dionysus' half-brother Perseus rules over the region of Argolis. Their stepmother Hera, who passionately hates Dionysus, is the queen of the gods and is also the patron deity of Argos, one of the major cities of Argolis. Meanwhile Dionysus has recently come from the island of Naxos, where he's recently made the Cretan princess Ariadne his wife. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Upon the wine-god's arrival in Argos, together with his new bride and their army of drunken revellers, the city's dwellers (who are apparently aware of Hera's sentiments towards Dionysus), turn them away from their home, afraid that their goddess will be offended if they receive her enemy stepson. At this, Dionysus induces madness in the city's women so that they start to butcher their own children.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hera then disguises herself as the prophet Melampus, a relative of Perseus who also rules over Argos. In this form she rouses Perseus to defend her city against Dionysus' attack. At this point, according to Nonnus, Perseus is still in possession of both Medusa's severed head and the winged sandals which aided him in his mission to acquire the head. He uses these in the counter-attack upon his wine-god half-brother.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ariadne is armed for battle and fights in the ranks of her bridegroom's troops of Bacchantes (a group of Dionysus' women who each seem to be one part wild dancer, one part fierce warrior, one part drunkard, and all berserk). Dionysus appears to have anticipated Medusa's head as a factor in this fight, for he has prepared himself to ward off the Gorgon's power by the use of a diamond. It is unclear whether he has surmounted his [*thyrsus*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyrsus) (his signature pine-cone wand) with the gem; is wearing the diamond on a necklace, or if it is attached to his face like a [*bindi*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bindi_(decoration)); or if he is simply carrying it in his other hand, perhaps in front of his eyes. As Nonnus says in Book 47, Lines 590-593:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The thyrsus was held up in his hand, and to defend his face he carried&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a diamond, the gem made stone in the showers of Zeus which protects&#xD;&#xA;&gt; against the stony glare of Medusa, that the baleful light of that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; destroying face may do him no harm.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ariadne, who is not similarly shielded against the Gorgon-head, is unceremoniously turned to stone as Perseus goes up against the Bacchantes. In his rage over this, Dionysus is ready to destroy Argos, burn Mycenae (another city of Argolis, this one built by Perseus himself) to the ground, and kill all the land's inhabitants. However, another half-brother of his, the messenger-god Hermes, appears behind him and convinces him to cease fighting, explaining that Hera, who is involved in the battle, might have the strength to defeat him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Just as Dionysus' own mortal mother Semele became a goddess of Olympus after she died, says Hermes to the wine-god, so would Ariadne join his company in the home of the immortals as well. With Hermes' help, Dionysus and Perseus afterwards become friends while the real Melampus establishes the cult of Dionysus in Argolis. The wine-god then moves on from there to Thrace to conclude his adventures in the final book of the *Dionysiaca*.       &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Attempting to Explain Athena Itonia and Iodama**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are, besides, instances of petrification (or, if you like, *petrifaction*) stories occurring while Athena is in possession of the Gorgon-head.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First there is the weird story of Iodama (or Iodameia), from the neighbourhood of Coroneia and Alalcomenae in Boeotia, related by Pausanias, which you have noted in your own Answer to the Question. I call it weird because there is no context given for the circumstances of this petrification, considering that Iodama is a priestess of Athena. Why does the goddess do this to her?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And also it is narrated ambiguously enough to render it unclear whether we are to understand that in Athena Itonia's temple there is a lifelike statue of a woman which is supposed to be the surprised Iodama, now venerated as somewhat of a minor divinity. Such a detail is the sort of thing with which Pausanias would usually not fail to engage us.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only attempt at an explanation of this that I have come across is in Robert Graves' book *The Greek Myths*, in which he presents two ideas regarding the matter. His first suggestion is that this is a different version of the tale in which Athena accidentally kills her own sister, or foster-sister, Pallas daughter of Triton.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The way Graves tells it, Athena is called Itonia here as a patronymic, because Itonus is her father, which makes her Iodama's sister. The other suggestion is that Iodama was trespassing into Athena Itonia's precinct by venturing into it in the night-time, where, so it would seem, Athena was not expecting to meet her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Iodama, probably meaning 'heifer calf of Io', will have been an&#xD;&#xA;&gt; antique stone image of the Moon-goddess...  and the story of her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; petrification is a warning to inquisitive girls against violating the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mysteries.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or at least that is what Graves would like to believe about that (p. 47). Incidentally, there is a much more explicit tradition regarding an alternate paternity of Athena from the neighbouring village of Alalcomenae, which was named after an Autochthon (a man born directly from the ground) called Alalcomenes. The villagers here said that Alalcomenes was the father of Athena or at least that he and his wife Athenaïs raised the goddess. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Introduction to Athena's Father Pallas**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In yet one more alternate Athena origin story, mentioned by the Roman writer Cicero, as well as by Clement of Alexandria, there were five different versions of the goddess. One of these was the daughter of an Oceanid named Titanis (meaning simply &quot;female Titan&quot;) while her father was called Pallas. It is ambiguous whether this Pallas is supposed to have been the winged Titan who married the river Styx and became by her the father of Victory (Nike), Jealousy (Zelos), Might (Kratos) and Violence (Bia), or if the Pallas in view is a winged Giant among those who waged war against the gods and paid for it with their lives.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At any rate, in this version, Athena's own father Pallas tried to rape her and was killed for this presumption, whereupon the goddess then flayed his leathery corpse, which was somewhat like that of a goat, and used his skin as casing for her breastplate or shield, the Aegis, whose name is connected with the Greek word for *goat*. She placed his wings on her feet and used them to fly like Hermes. If the Pallas envisioned here is the Titan, then Athena probably represents warcraft, to match up with her siblings, the four winged Titans of conquest, zeal, power and force.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Gigantic Combatants**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going back to the petrification issue, for the Roman version of the death of the Giant Pallas, the poet Claudian paints quite the scene in his *Gigantomachia*, &quot;Giants' War.&quot; During the Giants' attack on the stronghold of the gods, four Giants rushed against Minerva, the Roman Athena. She was wearing Medusa's head on her breastplate, and when the first Giant, Pallas, charged against her, Minerva &quot;needed not to use a spear&quot; because just the sight of the breastplate turned Pallas to stone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Bewildered by this, Pallas' brother, another Giant named Damastor, scrambled for a weapon to use in the fight. Failing to think of anything better, he grabbed the petrified corpse of Pallas and launched it as a missile upon the gods. Presumably this did not end well for him, though Claudian does not say, instead skipping forward to another Giant named Echion: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Echion, marveling, all ignorant, at his brother’s death, even as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he seeks to assail the author of the deed, turned his gaze upon you,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; goddess, whom alone no man may see twice. Beaten audacity well&#xD;&#xA;&gt; deserved its punishment and in death he learned to know the goddess.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That is also vague but implies that Echion, like Pallas, was turned to stone by Medusa's head.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The fourth and final attacker of Minerva was the Giant Palleneus (merely another version of Pallas?), who flailed with a sword, wildly, at the goddess. When he had drawn close enough Minerva struck him with her own sword. At the same time his lower half, which was composed of giant snakes, looked at the Gorgon's head and froze into stone, &quot;so that one part of the body was killed by a weapon and another part by a mere look.&quot; (See [Lines 91-113](http://www.theoi.com/Text/ClaudianGigantomachy.html).)      " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16884" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5052" RevisionGUID="d87301fc-8772-4614-987c-13126b78e280" CreationDate="2018-08-01T11:18:26.457" UserId="2682" Text="In 2000, Hallmark Entertainent created a 2-episode-long miniseries entitled [*Arabian Nights*](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0181199/), which aired on BBC One in the UK and on ABC in the USA. Strictly speaking, this is not a movie, but each episode being roughly the conventional run-time of a movie (1.5 hours), the complete miniseries could be seen as a double full-length feature. Among the cast are Dougray Scott (who I remember most as the villain in *Mission: Impossible 2*; here he plays the Sultan of Baghdad), Jim Carter (who currently seems to be best known from *Downton Abbey*), John Leguizamo and Andy Serkis. Jason Scott Lee plays Aladdin, who is portrayed here, like he is in the original story, as Chinese.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The series consists of five stories, the most famous among them being &quot;Aladdin and the Magic Lamp&quot; and &quot;Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves.&quot; The overarching premise of the story is indeed based on the framework that the Sultan's new bride Scheherezade tells him a story every night, stopping at dawn with a cliffhanger, and then refusing to continue until dusk, and in this way she is able to save herself from execution. There are a few other palace intrigues which seem to be invented for the TV series but for the most part the overarching theme is quite closely based upon the source material.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See the series trailer [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fRtB-bBGdI). " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16887" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5054" RevisionGUID="60001f64-5554-40b2-a6a7-35f4fa73ed13" CreationDate="2018-08-02T20:16:03.597" UserId="5254" Text="I came across this quote from Jordan Peterson:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Well what would you want to be king? You could say king of the world or king of your own soul: What do you wanna subordinate yourself to. How 'bout your heroic willingness to encounter the unknown and articulate it and share that with people. There's no nobler vision than that&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; https://youtu.be/nVlCsILzAXw?t=737&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Peterson is an exponent of archetypes and would surely expect to see heroes confronting unknown dangers to win great rewards throughout mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question is: **Does anyone have a sense of which ancient figure is the best example of a 'willingness to confront the unknown'?**" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16888" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5054" RevisionGUID="60001f64-5554-40b2-a6a7-35f4fa73ed13" CreationDate="2018-08-02T20:16:03.597" UserId="5254" Text="Which ancient hero is most associated with confronting the unknown?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16889" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5054" RevisionGUID="60001f64-5554-40b2-a6a7-35f4fa73ed13" CreationDate="2018-08-02T20:16:03.597" UserId="5254" Text="|myth-identification|archetypes|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16893" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5055" RevisionGUID="9b2e30cd-22b2-4d7f-ae60-652c49c0820c" CreationDate="2018-08-03T15:28:34.510" UserId="5247" Text="I'v been doing some light research into the figure of Old Father Thames, he appears as the personification on the River Thames through the 18th to 20th centuries but seems to have lost popularity during the beginning of the 20th. The most imagery popular imagery of him I can find is satirical and dark renditions from 'The Great Stink' of 1858, though there is more romantic stonework of him throughout London.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA; [![Punch (magazine) 1859.][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;Punch (magazine) 1859.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![John Bacon (circa 1780). Somerset House][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;John Bacon (circa 1780). Somerset House&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The earliest reference to him I can find is in Alexander Pope's 1713 poem Windsor Forest:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Old Father Thames advanced his reverend head; His tresses dropp'd with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dews, and o'er the stream His shining horns diffused a golden gleam:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Grav'd on his arm appear'd the moon that guides His swelling waters&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and alternate tides: The figur'd streams in waves of silver roll'd,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And on her banks Augusta rose in gold.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My intuition tells he was probably an 18th century neo-myth that caught on, does anyone else know earlier sources that could give a fuller history or place him earlier?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/iJCoV.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/4VcB4.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16894" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5055" RevisionGUID="9b2e30cd-22b2-4d7f-ae60-652c49c0820c" CreationDate="2018-08-03T15:28:34.510" UserId="5247" Text="Where does the personification of the River Thames as Old Father Thames originate?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16895" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5055" RevisionGUID="9b2e30cd-22b2-4d7f-ae60-652c49c0820c" CreationDate="2018-08-03T15:28:34.510" UserId="5247" Text="|folklore|british|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16896" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5056" RevisionGUID="0aaf7bcc-d2fc-4bd7-a19d-ed899feb1f32" CreationDate="2018-08-03T17:49:54.710" UserId="3560" Text="## Giants are not beholden to our rules of geometry ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Myths and fairy tales include all kinds of impossible things like [mermaids turning into sea foam][1], [women selling their eyes to rivers][2], [giant castles built on the clouds][3], [scarecrows spontaneously coming to life with speech capability][4], [men surviving dismemberment by replacing their entire body with tin][5], and [household objects transforming into geographic features][6]. Absolutely none of the rules we take for granted in reality will apply here, and that is just as terrifying and wondrous as it sounds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The inconsistent size of giants in myths and fairy tales makes them difficult to put a handle on. Nay, they defy geometry entirely. They may be described as arbitrarily large, but this size never inconveniences them when they want to interact non-destructively with anything smaller. Actually changing size is virtually never mentioned, and would not make sense in many examples where the giants perform multiple tasks at once that each require different sizes. The most extreme and telling convention I remember would be that a giant can have a wife who fits in the palm of his hand yet experience no difficulty having kids (see the book [*Monsters of Greek Mythology* by Bernard Evslin][7], section &quot;Amycus&quot; for a clear-cut example).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [1952 *Jack and the Beanstalk* movie][8], due what I assume were technical limitations or a stylistic choice, depicted the giant as being a tall human who had the capabilities of something vastly larger. He stole the food in the land thereby leading to mass starvation, his visits were accompanied by thunder and eclipsing the sun, and his footprints and shadow were comically huge. Although it may come off as silly and unbelievable to modern audiences what with our tendency to overthink the logic of fantasy worlds and our desensitization to expensive CGI spectacle (plus the movie was panned by critics), this movie does convey a visual analogue to how giants were idiosyncratically treated in myths and fairy tales.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact, the same thing applies to human heroes in myths and fairy tales. They can wrestle with giants many times their size despite that being physically impossible. For that matter, heroes can do other physically impossible stunts like splitting mountains in twain, swallowing the ocean and running over multiple different geographies in the span of one scene.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only logical explanation I can think of is that giants and heroes are simply [following non-Euclidean geometry][9]. Space and time simply hold different meanings to them compared to us mere mortals. Naturally, this is difficult for human minds to imagine and nigh-impossible to portray in a visual medium. The movie *[The Ritual][10]* is probably one of the few examples that pulls this off, and predictably it is a horror movie rather than a traditional fantasy romp.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://hca.gilead.org.il/li_merma.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://hca.gilead.org.il/sandhill.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.dltk-teach.com/rhymes/beanstalk/story.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarecrow_(Oz)&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_Woodman&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.mftd.org/index.php?action=atu&amp;act=select&amp;atu=313&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://itunes.apple.com/lu/book/monsters-of-greek-mythology/id917492584?mt=11&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0044762/&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://lovecraftianscience.wordpress.com/2014/01/23/lovecraft-and-mathematics-non-euclidean-geometry/&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5638642/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16897" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5057" RevisionGUID="125cb6a4-26b2-4c21-93a0-8d57b9dfb298" CreationDate="2018-08-03T20:02:39.360" UserId="5255" Text="When Paris was asked to choose a recipient for the apple of discord, he accepted Aphrodite's bribe and gave it to her in exchange for Menelaus's wife Helen. Paris later took Helen from Menelaus by force (depending on the account she might have been willing, but her husband certainly wasn't). In theory, couldn't he have done that anyway? What role did Aphrodite play that made it any easier? I'm aware of several ways she assisted Paris and other Trojans during their famous war, but this was before (indeed, the cause of) that." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16898" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5057" RevisionGUID="125cb6a4-26b2-4c21-93a0-8d57b9dfb298" CreationDate="2018-08-03T20:02:39.360" UserId="5255" Text="How did Aphrodite's promise of Helen to Paris work?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16899" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5057" RevisionGUID="125cb6a4-26b2-4c21-93a0-8d57b9dfb298" CreationDate="2018-08-03T20:02:39.360" UserId="5255" Text="|greek|trojan-war|aphrodite|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16900" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5057" RevisionGUID="21e07af4-9151-4615-9dd3-95c20e821cf7" CreationDate="2018-08-03T20:09:14.273" UserId="5255" Comment="added 7 characters in body" Text="When Paris was asked to choose a recipient for the Golden Apple of Discord, he accepted Aphrodite's bribe and gave it to her in exchange for Menelaus's wife Helen. Paris later took Helen from Menelaus by force (depending on the account she might have been willing, but her husband certainly wasn't). In theory, couldn't he have done that anyway? What role did Aphrodite play that made it any easier? I'm aware of several ways she assisted Paris and other Trojans during their famous war, but this was before (indeed, the cause of) that." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16903" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5055" RevisionGUID="322b130d-c925-43c6-96c9-74e77d616898" CreationDate="2018-08-04T11:29:55.533" UserId="5247" Comment="deleted 8 characters in body" Text="I'v been doing some light research into the figure of Old Father Thames, he appears as the personification on the River Thames through the 18th to 20th centuries but seems to have lost popularity during the beginning of the 20th. The most popular imagery of him I can find is satirical and dark renditions from 'The Great Stink' of 1858, though there is more romantic stonework of him throughout London.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA; [![Punch (magazine) 1859.][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;Punch (magazine) 1859.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![John Bacon (circa 1780). Somerset House][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;John Bacon (circa 1780). Somerset House&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The earliest reference to him I can find is in Alexander Pope's 1713 poem Windsor Forest:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Old Father Thames advanced his reverend head; His tresses dropp'd with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dews, and o'er the stream His shining horns diffused a golden gleam:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Grav'd on his arm appear'd the moon that guides His swelling waters&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and alternate tides: The figur'd streams in waves of silver roll'd,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And on her banks Augusta rose in gold.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My intuition tells he was probably an 18th century neo-myth that caught on, does anyone else know earlier sources that could give a fuller history or place him earlier?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/iJCoV.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/4VcB4.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16908" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4972" RevisionGUID="a721439b-14ea-42ad-9c4d-ffe874be45a2" CreationDate="2018-08-06T05:02:07.453" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="16909" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5059" RevisionGUID="39f652ab-f315-47fb-af12-4e226b373811" CreationDate="2018-08-06T05:19:42.283" UserId="5259" Text="In &quot;Divine Comedy&quot; (&quot;Divina Comedia&quot;) by Dante Alighieri, while exploring Hell(&quot;inferno&quot; section) , chapter 26 (&quot;canto&quot; 26), lines 85-142 (&quot;versi&quot; 85-142)&quot;: Odysseus last journey is described. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He was getting older, but it's desire for exploration and adventure was not so, he left for a one way trip:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[link to paragraph][1]&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  nor fondness for my son, nor pious reverence for my agèd father,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; nor ev’n the bounden love which should have cheered Penelope, could&#xD;&#xA;&gt; overcome within me&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **the eagerness I had to gain experience both of the world, and of the vice and worth of men**; but forth I put upon the deep and open sea&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with but a single ship, and with that little company, by whom I had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not been deserted.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and one paragraph later he gives a speech to his travel companions:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[link to paragraph][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And then I said: ‘O brothers, ye who now have through a hundred&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thousand perils reached the West, to this so short a waking-time still&#xD;&#xA;&gt; left your senses, will not to refuse experience of that world behind&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the sun which knows not man! Bethink you of the seed whence ye have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sprung; for ye were not created to lead the life of stupid animals,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; but manliness and knowledge to pursue.’&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/2308#Dante_0045-01_EN_3620&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/2308#Dante_0045-01_EN_3643" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16910" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5060" RevisionGUID="7da2de9a-2209-4d90-b786-b145f5c62dce" CreationDate="2018-08-06T19:48:30.347" UserId="5260" Text="I recently heard a reference to a character the gods sentenced to live long enough to see the results of his bad advice. I am looking for a reference for this story, specifically the name of the character and the god who sentenced him. No results on web searches, not sure where to look." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16911" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5060" RevisionGUID="7da2de9a-2209-4d90-b786-b145f5c62dce" CreationDate="2018-08-06T19:48:30.347" UserId="5260" Text="Looking for a character's name" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16912" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5060" RevisionGUID="7da2de9a-2209-4d90-b786-b145f5c62dce" CreationDate="2018-08-06T19:48:30.347" UserId="5260" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16920" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5062" RevisionGUID="278c85ac-6e9e-4582-ae39-c258cf1ccf74" CreationDate="2018-08-09T18:11:32.607" UserId="1315" Text="You got a lot of questions. I will try be shorty and focus on When was a pair of Greek and Roman gods first identified? In advance there is no objective answer for that. If there is I will be glad to know.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of modern Writers on this subject, [see Aarom P. Jhonson's Work][1], believes that Interpratio Graeca was more than a phrase, such as an act in itself, which marked a procces of a Greek cultural a and intelectual conquest of native knowledges. I recognize the use of the phrase &quot;interpretatio romana&quot; by Tacitus, however seems that you are looking for the correpondence of this phrase in Greek-Roman history beside the correspondence of the gods. It looks like in some point there was someone that said &quot;this is the mapping or correspondence of the gods from Egypt to Grece&quot; for example, but there is no certain registry about that, and you seem to be looking for whom that said &quot;this is the mapping or correspondence of the gods from Greek myth to Roman myth&quot;, right? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, we gotta observe that first indentification of some interpretatio between mythologies was made by Tacitus, or registred as if. So he was the first known to explicitly talk about mapping or the &quot;interpretatio&quot; , he was the first the made the link, as the other only talked about it without saying nothing about more than one culture explicitly. Hope it helps!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com.br/books?id=mM7N_v0xcmQC&amp;pg=PA224&amp;lpg=PA224&amp;dq=phrase%20interpretatio%20Graeca%20first%20writers&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=fD7GGBCMx2&amp;sig=8hkkjen0Dre1SYiE4A75Kk7AY00&amp;hl=pt-BR&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwjc7-zSv-DcAhUIk5AKHTeGD4EQ6AEwA3oECAcQAQ#v=onepage&amp;q=phrase%20interpretatio%20Graeca%20first%20writers&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16922" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5064" RevisionGUID="b909dd4c-bf2c-42b3-9972-2cfb50479a77" CreationDate="2018-08-10T01:33:28.903" UserDisplayName="user5268" Text="At the climax of *Fate/stay night*'s Heaven's Feel route, the main antagonist, Kirei Kotomine [makes reference to a religious scripture][1] that says humans are morally superior to angels because humans can choose between committing good or evil acts. Is there such a scripture that mentions this?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wLHKS6EOko&amp;t=1119s" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16923" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5064" RevisionGUID="b909dd4c-bf2c-42b3-9972-2cfb50479a77" CreationDate="2018-08-10T01:33:28.903" UserDisplayName="user5268" Text="What scripture describes humans as being morally superior to angels?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16924" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5064" RevisionGUID="b909dd4c-bf2c-42b3-9972-2cfb50479a77" CreationDate="2018-08-10T01:33:28.903" UserDisplayName="user5268" Text="|myth-identification|interpretation|angels|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16925" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5064" RevisionGUID="4af33a5a-9474-4e0a-8e3b-fb731400b5a1" CreationDate="2018-08-10T01:40:07.423" UserDisplayName="user5268" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="At the climax of *Fate/stay night*'s Heaven's Feel route, the main antagonist, Kirei Kotomine [makes reference to a religious scripture][1] that says humans are morally superior to angels because humans can choose between committing good or evil acts. Is there such a scripture that mentions this?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wLHKS6EOko&amp;t=400s" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16929" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5065" RevisionGUID="047c7693-4dc3-45d7-b523-1194f872c4b6" CreationDate="2018-08-10T13:00:58.943" UserId="5243" Text="Is there a Norse god/goddess of law or justice? Or is law/justice a too western of concept to have back then?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16930" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5065" RevisionGUID="047c7693-4dc3-45d7-b523-1194f872c4b6" CreationDate="2018-08-10T13:00:58.943" UserId="5243" Text="Norse god/goddess of law or justice" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16931" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5065" RevisionGUID="047c7693-4dc3-45d7-b523-1194f872c4b6" CreationDate="2018-08-10T13:00:58.943" UserId="5243" Text="|norse|goddesses|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16932" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5066" RevisionGUID="ef00efc8-ce2a-4947-85be-53216caa8173" CreationDate="2018-08-10T13:38:21.107" UserId="666" Text="Yes!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Tyr**][2] was a norse God of law and war. Evidence suggests that he was once head of the pantheon, but was supplanted by Odin and Thor. He was wise and brave, the only of the gods courageous enough to offer his hand as collateral when they wanted to bind Fenris. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**[Forseti][1]**, the son of Balder, is mentioned by Snorri as a good mediator and judge. His name also means &quot;the presiding one&quot;, so he has been linked with law and justice by scholars.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forseti&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%BDr" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16933" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5067" RevisionGUID="4d71555e-0af7-4590-8102-9a98ec7b52d8" CreationDate="2018-08-10T14:17:06.617" UserId="3341" Text="From the video:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“A certain scripture mentions that humans are superior beings to angels.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The character misunderstands the scriptural reference - it refers to Jesus, not to humans generally. (Though humans who find the 'Narrow Path' will be &quot;given a new name&quot; - Rev. 2:17, and others.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Hebrews 1:5 (KJV)**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Commentaries can be found here:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; https://www.studylight.org/commentary/hebrews/1-4.html )&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us **by his Son**, whom he hath&#xD;&#xA;&gt; appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, **when he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; had by himself purged our sins**, sat down on the right hand of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Majesty on high:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4 **Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and he shall be to me a Son?&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Philippians 2:6-11 (KJV)**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with God:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; servant, and was made in the likeness of men:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became&#xD;&#xA;&gt; obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which is above every name:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the glory of God the Father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16944" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5069" RevisionGUID="f84bd163-e6ed-447b-a99f-e53596511770" CreationDate="2018-08-14T19:21:57.353" UserId="5283" Text="&#xD;&#xA;Does anyone know the Sami tale where all the animals gather inside a mountain and decide they won't be speaking the same language as humans from now on? If I remember correctly, they agree that one animal will remain able to communicate with humans, and it is the fox. I heard this tale in Lapland and would love to have a full version of it." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16945" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5069" RevisionGUID="f84bd163-e6ed-447b-a99f-e53596511770" CreationDate="2018-08-14T19:21:57.353" UserId="5283" Text="Sami tale where the fox is left as sole speaker of human language" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16946" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5069" RevisionGUID="f84bd163-e6ed-447b-a99f-e53596511770" CreationDate="2018-08-14T19:21:57.353" UserId="5283" Text="|sami|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16948" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5070" RevisionGUID="a417768c-c27f-4e0c-8bb7-4dbe5e6bf1f2" CreationDate="2018-08-15T05:49:01.977" UserId="108" Text="The earliest known account of the Judgement of Paris comes from the *Cypria*, a work which has since been lost. A preserved summary, however, states that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Alexandros judges for Aphrodite, encouraged by a promise of Helen in marriage. On the advice of Aphrodite, he has ships built . . . When he gets to Lacedaemonia, Alexandros is entertained as a ξένος by the sons of Tyndaros, and afterwards by Menelaos at Sparta. Alexandros gives Helen gifts during the feast. Menelaos sails off to Crete, telling Helen to provide proper hospitality for their ξένοι while he is away. Aphrodite brings Helen and Alexandros together. After their intercourse, they load up a great many valuables and sail away by night.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[*The Chrestomathy of Proclus*](http://www.stoa.org/hopper/text.jsp?doc=Stoa:text:2003.01.0004)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are no hints here that Paris (Alexandros) took Helen by force. Instead, we see that Aphrodite guided Paris to Helen, and apparently, to put it delicately, played &quot;matchmaker&quot; for the two. This is reinforced by, for example, passages in the *Illiad*, where we see Aphrodite explicitly trying to provoke Helen's desires for Paris:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aphrodite spake: &quot;Come hither; Alexander calleth thee to go to thy home. There is he in his chamber and on his inlaid couch, gleaming with beauty and fair raiment. Thou wouldest not deem that he had come thither from warring with a foe, but rather that he was going to the dance, or sat there as one that had but newly ceased from the dance.&quot; So spake she, and stirred Helen's heart in her breast; and when she marked the beauteous neck of the goddess, her lovely bosom, and her flashing eyes, then amazement seized her, and she spake, and addressed her, saying: &quot;Strange goddess, why art thou minded to beguile me thus?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[*Illiad* 3.395-400](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D3%3Acard%3D381)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, yes, in theory Paris *could* have abducted Helen anyway. But he wouldn't have known to look for Helen in Menelaus' kingdom, nor was he guaranteed to be able to seduce Helen without divine help. At the very least, a willing Helen would have made things easier for Paris.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this way, Aphrodite bribe basically meant being a guide and a &quot;wing woman&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16949" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5070" RevisionGUID="2abe4577-cd9f-4fc4-b3a8-abab3141a674" CreationDate="2018-08-15T21:17:39.137" UserId="2892" Comment="added lexical link for ξένος" Text="The earliest known account of the Judgement of Paris comes from the *Cypria*, a work which has since been lost. A preserved summary, however, states that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Alexandros judges for Aphrodite, encouraged by a promise of Helen in marriage. On the advice of Aphrodite, he has ships built . . . When he gets to Lacedaemonia, Alexandros is entertained as a [ξένος][1] by the sons of Tyndaros, and afterwards by Menelaos at Sparta. Alexandros gives Helen gifts during the feast. Menelaos sails off to Crete, telling Helen to provide proper hospitality for their ξένοι while he is away. Aphrodite brings Helen and Alexandros together. After their intercourse, they load up a great many valuables and sail away by night.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[*The Chrestomathy of Proclus*](http://www.stoa.org/hopper/text.jsp?doc=Stoa:text:2003.01.0004)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are no hints here that Paris (Alexandros) took Helen by force. Instead, we see that Aphrodite guided Paris to Helen, and apparently, to put it delicately, played &quot;matchmaker&quot; for the two. This is reinforced by, for example, passages in the *Illiad*, where we see Aphrodite explicitly trying to provoke Helen's desires for Paris:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aphrodite spake: &quot;Come hither; Alexander calleth thee to go to thy home. There is he in his chamber and on his inlaid couch, gleaming with beauty and fair raiment. Thou wouldest not deem that he had come thither from warring with a foe, but rather that he was going to the dance, or sat there as one that had but newly ceased from the dance.&quot; So spake she, and stirred Helen's heart in her breast; and when she marked the beauteous neck of the goddess, her lovely bosom, and her flashing eyes, then amazement seized her, and she spake, and addressed her, saying: &quot;Strange goddess, why art thou minded to beguile me thus?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[*Illiad* 3.395-400](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D3%3Acard%3D381)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, yes, in theory Paris *could* have abducted Helen anyway. But he wouldn't have known to look for Helen in Menelaus' kingdom, nor was he guaranteed to be able to seduce Helen without divine help. At the very least, a willing Helen would have made things easier for Paris.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this way, Aphrodite bribe basically meant being a guide and a &quot;wing woman&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dce%2Fnos" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16951" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5071" RevisionGUID="30050869-8ee3-4446-a58b-5db7279c164a" CreationDate="2018-08-15T21:37:42.303" UserId="2892" Text="The [wikipedia entry for cold iron][1] references Kipling and Walter Scott.  Wondering if there are any surviving folktales involving iron as a ward or weapon against faeries and other supernatural entities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_in_folklore#In_Europe" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16952" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5071" RevisionGUID="30050869-8ee3-4446-a58b-5db7279c164a" CreationDate="2018-08-15T21:37:42.303" UserId="2892" Text="European fokloric references to &quot;cold iron&quot; as a ward against supernatural entities?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16953" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5071" RevisionGUID="30050869-8ee3-4446-a58b-5db7279c164a" CreationDate="2018-08-15T21:37:42.303" UserId="2892" Text="|european-folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16954" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3531" RevisionGUID="589ff960-548d-48d1-bd7e-ae205783844d" CreationDate="2018-08-16T09:02:18.330" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="16958" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5074" RevisionGUID="b932aeb2-7e5f-4dfb-9b08-3d3fd18cf309" CreationDate="2018-08-17T08:02:14.793" UserId="5287" Text="Its actually a very interesting question. The only documentation regarding these people is from the icelandic sagas who were principally Norwegian people fleeing the oppressive taxations imposed by King Harold Haradri. However, I think it's a safe bet that everyone was singing from the same hymn sheet and that they are one and the same. All over Scandanavia the only grave finds have been inscribed in the Norse Futark (like runing writing) and always the only deities they refer to are in the pantheon of Norse gods. There is a school of thought that intimates that most religions in fact only worshipped one god and that other 'gods' are only supposed to be taken as aspects of that one god. A point to note is that historically ordinary people were told about the affairs of gods by the priests. That pecking order has only really been changed with the advent of the christian church. Although it might be thought that Christianity came to Scandanavia with the introduction of various Christian missionaries intent on bringing god to a host of barbarians there is another school of thought held with some credibility by myself that the Norse were Christians, that for Odin read Jesus, that when in the Bible god disowned the Jews who had been his chosen race that he then made the Vikings his chosen race, beginning with Jesus/Odin (who was (killed?)by the jews) and tasked them to spread there seed around the world (note that the norse were the only society in history that did not have capital punishment. if a viking killed someone he was banished not executed) the Vikings spread into the UK, the Viking Russ formed what is now Russia, The Normans came from Scandanavia. These areas were the western europeans that conducted the crusades, these areas went and colonised America, Australia, New Zealand. So in hindsight whose seed has now been spread around the world?&#xD;&#xA;If you're wondering about the Vikings first visits when they butchered the priests at Lindisfarne and subsequent monesterys etc., the people they butchered were the only ones that had vast deposits of gold with abbots that lived like kings whilst the average person struggled to feed his family. Maybe these initial viking raids were heaven sent.&#xD;&#xA;Its just a possibilty, maybe." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16966" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5074" RevisionGUID="88561ea8-f60b-47a0-a246-a101fc93398e" CreationDate="2018-08-17T11:19:37.533" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 21 characters in body" Text="It's actually a very interesting question. The only documentation regarding these people is from the Icelandic sagas who were principally Norwegian people fleeing the oppressive taxations imposed by King Harold Haradri. However, I think it's a safe bet that everyone was singing from the same hymn sheet and that they are one and the same. All over Scandinavia the only grave finds have been inscribed in the Norse Futhark (like running writing) and always the only deities they refer to are in the pantheon of Norse gods. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a school of thought that intimates that most religions in fact only worshipped one god and that other 'gods' are only supposed to be taken as aspects of that one god. A point to note is that historically ordinary people were told about the affairs of gods by the priests. That pecking order has only really been changed with the advent of the Christian church. Although it might be thought that Christianity came to Scandinavia with the introduction of various Christian missionaries intent on bringing god to a host of barbarians there is another school of thought held with some credibility by myself that the Norse were Christians, that for Odin read Jesus, that when in the Bible god disowned the Jews who had been his chosen race that he then made the Vikings his chosen race, beginning with Jesus/Odin (who was (killed?)by the jews) and tasked them to spread there seed around the world (note that the Norse were the only society in history that did not have capital punishment. If a Viking killed someone he was banished not executed). The Vikings spread into the UK, the Viking Rus formed what is now Russia, the Normans came from Scandinavia. These areas were the western Europeans that conducted the Crusades, these areas went and colonised America, Australia, New Zealand. So in hindsight whose seed has now been spread around the world?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you're wondering about the Vikings first visits when they butchered the priests at Lindisfarne and subsequent monasteries etc., the people they butchered were the only ones that had vast deposits of gold with abbots that lived like kings whilst the average person struggled to feed his family. Maybe these initial Viking raids were heaven sent." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16967" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5071" RevisionGUID="13e17a7a-331e-4d1f-83b0-49cc08ae7b98" CreationDate="2018-08-17T18:04:43.707" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="Corrected grammar" Text="European folkloric references to &quot;cold iron&quot; as a ward against supernatural entities?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16968" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5071" RevisionGUID="13e17a7a-331e-4d1f-83b0-49cc08ae7b98" CreationDate="2018-08-17T18:04:43.707" Comment="Proposed by 4660 approved by 29, 108 edit id of 1665" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16970" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5077" RevisionGUID="6065df74-2834-48fe-8e28-e9637814586d" CreationDate="2018-08-18T14:41:35.583" UserId="5292" Text="I'm not exactly sure what to think but after doing it so often I was just curious if there is a name? I've noticed that when I'm tired while say I'm at work I can place my palm to a tree and it begins to wake me up. The only way I can describe this feeling is like I've chug down an energy drink or something I can also do this with another human being. I sat down with a friend of mine and asked him to hold my hand he thought it was weird at first but when I held his hand I asked him if he felt anything and he described it it like a &quot;pull&quot; and when I used my other hand my left hand he said that the feeling was different like he was waking up." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16971" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5077" RevisionGUID="6065df74-2834-48fe-8e28-e9637814586d" CreationDate="2018-08-18T14:41:35.583" UserId="5292" Text="What do you call a human who can take energy from other living objects?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16972" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5077" RevisionGUID="6065df74-2834-48fe-8e28-e9637814586d" CreationDate="2018-08-18T14:41:35.583" UserId="5292" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16973" PostHistoryTypeId="36" PostId="5078" RevisionGUID="d08ae8fd-cef5-424f-8218-6d11ed2d5365" CreationDate="2018-08-19T01:03:23.997" UserId="-1" Comment="from https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/47668/djinn-and-devils-demons-question" />
  <row Id="16974" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5078" RevisionGUID="271eaa82-4950-4c4f-96c1-e6bff5967768" CreationDate="2018-08-18T22:54:54.687" UserId="5294" UserDisplayName="Abraham Ray" Text="I know that ancient Arabians had a mythology about evil creatures made of dust and fire called djinn, now my question is this: how were they different from Demons and devils?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16975" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5078" RevisionGUID="271eaa82-4950-4c4f-96c1-e6bff5967768" CreationDate="2018-08-18T22:54:54.687" UserId="5294" UserDisplayName="Abraham Ray" Text="Djinn and devils/demons question" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16976" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5078" RevisionGUID="271eaa82-4950-4c4f-96c1-e6bff5967768" CreationDate="2018-08-18T22:54:54.687" UserId="5294" UserDisplayName="Abraham Ray" Text="|untagged|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16977" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5079" RevisionGUID="a2c5bf3e-6f76-4809-9910-bb3cfd2e3d50" CreationDate="2018-08-19T16:07:16.340" UserId="3341" Text="Only did a quick search but didn't find any mythological creatures with this attribute. Is there a mythological 'psychic vampire'? &lt;s&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, did find a conversation about the ability, which may give you a direction to follow. Having no shared experience, I neither endorse nor oppose what is said in the linked thread:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://www.wongkiewkit.com/forum/forum/suggested-reading/articles-and-popular-topics/396-absorbing-energy-from-trees&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Snippet:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This is not an approach I am familiar with, but overall I certainly do&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not agree with such practices. A student recently asked me regarding&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stories of Chi Kung practitioners killing vegetation with such&#xD;&#xA;&gt; practices and I will give the same answer I gave him.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Drawing energy from any other living creature for any reason other&#xD;&#xA;&gt; than the immediate betterment of that living creature is not what I&#xD;&#xA;&gt; would expect of any noble Chi Kung practitioner. In this case and from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; what you have written, if he was knocked away by the energies he was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; taking, then he should not have been taking them. Giving energies back&#xD;&#xA;&gt; into the cosmos in whatever form is part and parcel of existance.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Deliberately taking something from another being without permission is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; theft.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; I would also describe it as low to mid level Chi Kung, as the cosmos&#xD;&#xA;&gt; supplies an endless source of pure, clean energy that is free to all -&#xD;&#xA;&gt; why take from another?&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; As I say, I am not familiar with this as a specific technique or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; practice so if anyone would care to explain to me exactly why someone&#xD;&#xA;&gt; would use such a practice I look forward to hearing their views.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16978" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5078" RevisionGUID="9b09bef4-6cc4-445c-9eb5-dce5bf56a529" CreationDate="2018-08-19T16:58:24.537" UserId="5294" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16979" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5080" RevisionGUID="93e5a498-9a33-412d-99ea-3fe65a621296" CreationDate="2018-08-19T18:05:50.447" UserId="5093" Text="In the myth of Athena's birth it is mentioned that Metis second child would overthrow Zeus. Than Zeus swallowed Metis he prevented the prophecy and Metis never had a son. But what if her son would have been born? Is there any information about him (besides that he would have been more powerful than Zeus), like what powers he would have had, what kind of god he would have been? Or any other information about him?  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16980" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5080" RevisionGUID="93e5a498-9a33-412d-99ea-3fe65a621296" CreationDate="2018-08-19T18:05:50.447" UserId="5093" Text="Metis unborn son" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16981" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5080" RevisionGUID="93e5a498-9a33-412d-99ea-3fe65a621296" CreationDate="2018-08-19T18:05:50.447" UserId="5093" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16982" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5080" RevisionGUID="d240f9f8-bc95-4720-b40f-84f924353723" CreationDate="2018-08-19T20:00:59.373" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="In the myth of Athena's birth it is mentioned that Metis' second child would overthrow Zeus. When Zeus swallowed Metis, he prevented the prophecy's fulfillment and Metis never had a son. But what if her son would have been born? Is there any information about him (besides that he would have been more powerful than Zeus), like what powers he would have had, what kind of god he would have been? Or any other information about him?  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16983" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5080" RevisionGUID="d240f9f8-bc95-4720-b40f-84f924353723" CreationDate="2018-08-19T20:00:59.373" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="Metis' unborn son" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16984" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5081" RevisionGUID="918341ed-e114-42e4-a83a-9d29d44e4eec" CreationDate="2018-08-20T10:20:38.623" UserId="5247" Text="It would seem that in the pre-Abrahamic cultures of Europe and Arabia, Jinn and Daemons are broadly similar in that they are both spirits higher than humans and worthy of worship but not necessarily Gods (bare in mind sources for this period might be limited) see [Greek Religion (1995)](https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=sxurBtx6shoC&amp;lpg=PA179&amp;redir_esc=), and [Islam, Arabs, and Intelligent World of the Jinn (2009)](https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Islam_Arabs_and_Intelligent_World_of_the.html?id=JjTctEZXHCQC&amp;source=kp_book_description&amp;redir_esc=y). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The key differences seem to appear post-Abrahamic religions, where Daemons were, well, Demonised. *Daemon* was used as the term in Greek for other semi-divine malicious beings, idols, or foreign deities in translations of the Bible, [Demonology (1973)](http://xtf.lib.virginia.edu/xtf/view?docId=DicHist/uvaBook/tei/DicHist1.xml;chunk.id=dv1-79). Whereas Jinns seem to have been to a greater or lesser extent incorporated into Islamic theology as a neutral group; capable of malicious or beneficent actions due to their free will, in the same way as Human beings, capable of salvation, see [Quran 51:56](https://quran.com/51/56?translations=18,43,83,84,95,101).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Their post-Abrahamic form seems far more akin to the Irish Tuatha Dé ('God Tribes'), who at times by various authors are rationalised as fallen angels who did not fall quite as far as the forces of Satan, and thus exist in the earth and sea as neutral forces. Though only capable of salvation if they give up their immortality and except death, see [Ireland's Immortals (2016)](https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ireland%27s+immortals&amp;rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBGB802GB802&amp;oq=Ireland%27s+immortals&amp;aqs=chrome.0.0j69i61j0j69i59j0j69i59.3538j0j9&amp;sourceid=chrome&amp;ie=UTF-8). " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16985" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5079" RevisionGUID="623bc5c4-8b72-4dc0-9d76-222ed4de6d40" CreationDate="2018-08-20T12:52:32.413" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="Corrected links" Text="Only did a quick search but didn't find any mythological creatures with this attribute. Is there a mythological 'psychic vampire'? &lt;s&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, did find a conversation about the ability, which may give you a direction to follow. Having no shared experience, I neither endorse nor oppose what is said in the linked thread:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Absorbing Energy From Trees | Shaolin Wahnam Institute Virtual Kwoon and Discussion Forum][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Snippet:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This is not an approach I am familiar with, but overall I certainly do&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not agree with such practices. A student recently asked me regarding&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stories of Chi Kung practitioners killing vegetation with such&#xD;&#xA;&gt; practices and I will give the same answer I gave him.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Drawing energy from any other living creature for any reason other&#xD;&#xA;&gt; than the immediate betterment of that living creature is not what I&#xD;&#xA;&gt; would expect of any noble Chi Kung practitioner. In this case and from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; what you have written, if he was knocked away by the energies he was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; taking, then he should not have been taking them. Giving energies back&#xD;&#xA;&gt; into the cosmos in whatever form is part and parcel of existance.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Deliberately taking something from another being without permission is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; theft.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; I would also describe it as low to mid level Chi Kung, as the cosmos&#xD;&#xA;&gt; supplies an endless source of pure, clean energy that is free to all -&#xD;&#xA;&gt; why take from another?&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; As I say, I am not familiar with this as a specific technique or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; practice so if anyone would care to explain to me exactly why someone&#xD;&#xA;&gt; would use such a practice I look forward to hearing their views.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.wongkiewkit.com/forum/forum/suggested-reading/articles-and-popular-topics/396-absorbing-energy-from-trees" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16986" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5079" RevisionGUID="623bc5c4-8b72-4dc0-9d76-222ed4de6d40" CreationDate="2018-08-20T12:52:32.413" Comment="Proposed by 4660 approved by 3341 edit id of 1667" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16988" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5081" RevisionGUID="3e1a88ec-5169-4c22-9474-8c28880ce482" CreationDate="2018-08-20T20:18:32.870" UserId="188" Comment="Spelling Corrections" Text="It would seem that in the pre-Abrahamic cultures of Europe and Arabia, Jinn and Daemons are broadly similar in that they are both spirits higher than humans and worthy of worship but not necessarily Gods (bare in mind sources for this period might be limited) see [Greek Religion (1995)](https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=sxurBtx6shoC&amp;lpg=PA179&amp;redir_esc=), and [Islam, Arabs, and Intelligent World of the Jinn (2009)](https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Islam_Arabs_and_Intelligent_World_of_the.html?id=JjTctEZXHCQC&amp;source=kp_book_description&amp;redir_esc=y). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The key differences seem to appear post-Abrahamic religions, where Daemons were, well, Demonised. *Daemon* was used as the term in Greek for other semi-divine malicious beings, idols, or foreign deities in translations of the Bible, [Demonology (1973)](http://xtf.lib.virginia.edu/xtf/view?docId=DicHist/uvaBook/tei/DicHist1.xml;chunk.id=dv1-79). Whereas Jinns seem to have been to a greater or lesser extent incorporated into Islamic theology as a neutral group; capable of malicious or beneficent actions due to their free will, in the same way as Human beings, capable of salvation, see [Quran 51:56](https://quran.com/51/56?translations=18,43,83,84,95,101).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Their post-Abrahamic form seems far more akin to the Irish Tuatha Dé ('God Tribes'), who at times by various authors are rationalised as fallen angels who did not fall quite as far as the forces of Satan, and thus exist in the earth and sea as neutral forces. Though only capable of salvation if they give up their immortality and accept death, see [Ireland's Immortals (2016)](https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ireland%27s+immortals). " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16989" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5081" RevisionGUID="3e1a88ec-5169-4c22-9474-8c28880ce482" CreationDate="2018-08-20T20:18:32.870" Comment="Proposed by 188 approved by 42, 2892 edit id of 1668" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16990" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5078" RevisionGUID="91ed6737-7efe-4abc-aa93-128e3a783ce5" CreationDate="2018-08-20T20:18:59.550" UserId="5247" Comment="Added relevant tags that might help you find an awnser" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|arabic|islam|medieval-europe|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16991" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5078" RevisionGUID="91ed6737-7efe-4abc-aa93-128e3a783ce5" CreationDate="2018-08-20T20:18:59.550" Comment="Proposed by 5247 approved by 2774, 2892 edit id of 1666" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16992" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5077" RevisionGUID="4c908ad3-fbcc-40f4-8b0b-93e9fadaa43f" CreationDate="2018-08-20T20:23:40.747" UserId="2892" Comment="edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16993" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4687" RevisionGUID="f3daf127-5465-432f-a570-e7106bf6ec5c" CreationDate="2018-08-21T03:01:59.687" UserId="2682" Comment="added some info" Text="**Ancestors of the Mother of Odysseus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Neither of Odysseus' grandparents was a deity, although the most celebrated ancestral connection between Odysseus and a god is, indeed, his descent from **Hermes**, who was the father of the famous thief [Autolycus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autolycus), the father of [Anticleia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anticlea), the mother of Odysseus. So Hermes was Odysseus' *great*-grandfather. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It then follows, obviously, that Odysseus was also descended from Hermes' father **Zeus** and from Hermes' great-grandparents the Titan deities **Oceanus** and **Tethys**. So the divine descent through Hermes' mother's side of the family would entail:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Gaia** (goddess of the earth) ➜ Oceanus &amp; Tethys ➜ Pleione ➜ Maia ➜ Hermes ➜ Autolycus ➜ Anticleia ➜ Odysseus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Through Anticleia, Odysseus was also descended from the star-god [**Eosphorus**](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2686/2682), who was the personification of the planet Venus, the dawn star. Through Eosphorus, therefore, Anticleia would also have been a descendant of the dawn-goddess **Eos**, who was Eosphorus' mother. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anticleia's father Autolycus was the son of Hermes by Chione, the daughter of a king called [Daedalion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daedalion), who was a son of Eosphorus. So:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eos ➜ Eosphorus ➜ Daedalion ➜ Chione ➜ Autolycus ➜ Anticleia ➜ Odysseus &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ancestors of the Father of Odysseus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Laertes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laertes) was the father of Odysseus (although there is a later tradition in which Sisyphus was the father). There are two different versions of Laertes' parentage, in one of which he is the son of Atticans named [Cephalus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cephalus) and [Procris](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procris), both of whom are descended from the fire-god **Hephaestus**, and thus Hephaestus' parents Zeus and **Hera**; as well as the river-gods [**Eridanus**](https://pantheon.org/articles/e/eridanus.html) and [**Cephissus**](https://pantheon.org/articles/c/cephissus.html).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Erichthonius**, who is king of Athens before he becomes a tutelary divinity of the city, is the son of Hephaestus and Gaia from whom Procris and Cephalus are descended.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the other version of Laertes' parentage, he is the son of [Arceisius](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcesius). The most famous version of Arceisius' origin is that he is a son of Zeus. In this version, then, Laertes would be Zeus's grandson, but other accounts have Arceisius as the son of Cephalus and Procris, or of a certain Cillus or Celeus who in turn is the son of Cephalus and Procris.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ancestors of the Mother of Penelope**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no explicit reference to the idea that any of Penelope's grandparents was a deity. There are at least four different versions of who Penelope's mother was, her name being Polycaste, Dorodoche, Asterodeia or Periboea. Apollodorus refers to the last of these women as a Naiad, so presumably her father was a river-god. Aaron Atsma [conjectures](http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NymphePeriboia2.html) that the relevant water-body would have been the Lacedaemonian river Eurotas, in the region of Periboea's residence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is, though, a more explicit connection to divine ancestry with the alternative of Dorodoche, who was the daughter of Ortilochus, son of the river-god [**Alpheus**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpheus_(deity)). Telegone, the mother of Ortilochus, was a granddaughter of Hermes, and also a descendant of Zeus, of the Egyptian river Nile ([**Neilus**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nilus_(mythology))), of the Argive river [**Inachus**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inachus) and of the Oceanid [**Melia**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melia_(Oceanid)).   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ancestors of the Father of Penelope**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Icarius](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icarius_of_Sparta) of Lacedaemon was the father of Penelope. There are three different versions of his parentage, which sort of overlap. He was the son of Perieres and Gorgophone, or of Oebalus and Bateia, or of Oebalus and Gorgophone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Once again Apollodorus tells us that a certain royal Lacedaemonian woman, this time Bateia, was a Naiad. Once again Atsma [speculates](http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheBateia.html) that the Eurotas River is the father of this Naiad, though there is no explicit confirmation of this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the version in which Icarius is the son of Oebalus and Gorgophone, he would be a descendant of Zeus on both sides of his family. Gorgophone was a daughter of Perseus son of Zeus. Meanwhile Oebalus' grandfather Amyclas was the son of [Lacedaemon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacedaemon_(mythology)), the son of Zeus after whom this region of Peloponnesus was named. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Oebalus' grandmother Diomede was a daughter of Lapithes—the son of **Apollo** from whom the [Lapithae](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapiths) were descended—as well as a great-granddaughter of Magnes, the son of Zeus from whom the region of Magnesia received its name. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16994" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4687" RevisionGUID="39cdbe0f-053a-4469-a7eb-2551016c07ad" CreationDate="2018-08-21T03:51:46.973" UserId="2682" Comment="added some info" Text="**Ancestors of the Mother of Odysseus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Neither of Odysseus' grandparents was a deity, although the most celebrated ancestral connection between Odysseus and a god is, indeed, his descent from **Hermes**, who was the father of the famous thief [Autolycus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autolycus), the father of [Anticleia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anticlea), the mother of Odysseus. So Hermes was Odysseus' *great*-grandfather. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It then follows, obviously, that Odysseus was also descended from Hermes' father **Zeus** and from Hermes' great-grandparents the Titan deities **Oceanus** and **Tethys**. So the divine descent through Hermes' mother's side of the family would entail:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Gaia** (goddess of the earth) ➜ Oceanus &amp; Tethys ➜ Pleione ➜ Maia ➜ Hermes ➜ Autolycus ➜ Anticleia ➜ Odysseus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Through Anticleia, Odysseus was also descended from the star-god [**Eosphorus**](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2686/2682), who was the personification of the planet Venus, the dawn star. Through Eosphorus, therefore, Anticleia would also have been a descendant of the dawn-goddess **Eos**, who was Eosphorus' mother. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anticleia's father Autolycus was the son of Hermes by Chione, the daughter of a king called [Daedalion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daedalion), who was a son of Eosphorus. So:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eos ➜ Eosphorus ➜ Daedalion ➜ Chione ➜ Autolycus ➜ Anticleia ➜ Odysseus &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ancestors of the Father of Odysseus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Laertes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laertes) was the father of Odysseus (although there is a later tradition in which Sisyphus was the father). There are two different versions of Laertes' parentage, in one of which he is the son of Atticans named [Cephalus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cephalus) and [Procris](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procris), both of whom are descended from the fire-god **Hephaestus**, and thus Hephaestus' parents Zeus and **Hera**; as well as the river-gods [**Eridanus**](https://pantheon.org/articles/e/eridanus.html) and [**Cephissus**](https://pantheon.org/articles/c/cephissus.html).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Erichthonius**, who is king of Athens before he becomes a tutelary divinity of the city, is the son of Hephaestus and Gaia from whom Procris and Cephalus are descended.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the other version of Laertes' parentage, he is the son of [Arceisius](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcesius). The most famous version of Arceisius' origin is that he is a son of Zeus. In this version, then, Laertes would be Zeus's grandson, but other accounts have Arceisius as the son of Cephalus and Procris, or of a certain Cillus or Celeus who in turn is the son of Cephalus and Procris.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ancestors of the Mother of Penelope**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no explicit reference to the idea that any of Penelope's grandparents was a deity. There are at least four different versions of who Penelope's mother was, her name being Polycaste, Dorodoche, Asterodeia or Periboea. Apollodorus refers to the last of these women as a Naiad, so presumably her father was a river-god. Aaron Atsma [conjectures](http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NymphePeriboia2.html) that the relevant water-body would have been the Lacedaemonian river Eurotas, in the region of Periboea's residence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is, though, a more explicit connection to divine ancestry with the alternative of Dorodoche, who was the daughter of Ortilochus, son of the river-god [**Alpheus**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpheus_(deity)). Telegone, the mother of Ortilochus, was a granddaughter of Hermes, and also a descendant of Zeus, of the Egyptian river Nile ([**Neilus**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nilus_(mythology))), of the Argive river [**Inachus**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inachus) and of the Oceanid [**Melia**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melia_(Oceanid)).   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ancestors of the Father of Penelope**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Icarius](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icarius_of_Sparta) of Lacedaemon was the father of Penelope. There are three different versions of his parentage, which sort of overlap. He was the son of Perieres and Gorgophone, or of Oebalus and Bateia, or of Oebalus and Gorgophone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Once again Apollodorus tells us that a certain royal Lacedaemonian woman, this time Bateia, was a Naiad. Once again Atsma [speculates](http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheBateia.html) that the Eurotas River is the father of this Naiad, though there is no explicit confirmation of this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the version in which Icarius is the son of Oebalus and Gorgophone, he would be a descendant of Zeus on both sides of his family. Gorgophone was a daughter of Perseus son of Zeus. Meanwhile Oebalus' grandfather Amyclas was the son of [Lacedaemon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacedaemon_(mythology)), the son of Zeus after whom this region of Peloponnesus was named. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Oebalus' grandmother Diomede was a daughter of Lapithes—the son of **Apollo** from whom the [Lapithae](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapiths) were descended—as well as a great-granddaughter of Magnes, the son of Zeus from whom the region of Magnesia received its name. Through Lapithes, she was also descended from the river-god [**Peneius**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peneus). " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16995" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5082" RevisionGUID="984d74ad-306f-4169-acb7-68e2f49c298d" CreationDate="2018-08-21T06:32:28.277" UserId="5294" Text="Mostly for curiosities sake: when was the earliest tale of Sasquatch told by the native Americans? Of course I would mean the earliest recorded tale." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16996" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5082" RevisionGUID="984d74ad-306f-4169-acb7-68e2f49c298d" CreationDate="2018-08-21T06:32:28.277" UserId="5294" Text="Sasquatch time question" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16997" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5082" RevisionGUID="984d74ad-306f-4169-acb7-68e2f49c298d" CreationDate="2018-08-21T06:32:28.277" UserId="5294" Text="|the-native-tales|cryptozoology|sasquatch|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16998" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5080" RevisionGUID="ad7a0654-0381-4b70-8181-ba38be7ccf82" CreationDate="2018-08-21T07:48:37.777" UserId="5294" Comment="Concendering the question this tag makes sense " Text="|greek|zeus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="16999" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5080" RevisionGUID="ad7a0654-0381-4b70-8181-ba38be7ccf82" CreationDate="2018-08-21T07:48:37.777" Comment="Proposed by 5294 approved by 5093 edit id of 1669" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17000" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5083" RevisionGUID="93b5dc43-ac49-4b53-845b-58a47e49bbb5" CreationDate="2018-08-22T01:11:41.403" UserId="292" Text="Stephan Grundy's Odhinn the Cult of Death, and Diana Paxson's Odin: Ecstasy, Runes, and Norse Practical Magic are both pretty good, and available on Amazon. If you've already read the Prose and Poetic Eddas you'll have a good grounding in Norse myth generally, these two books will probably answer your questions." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17002" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5082" RevisionGUID="683acf14-5124-41e8-b878-889a7e8e3af2" CreationDate="2018-08-22T15:45:12.983" UserId="5294" Comment="deleted 18 characters in body" Text="Mostly for curiosities sake: when was the earliest tale of Sasquatch told by the native Americans? Would that be during the 1850’s?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17003" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5084" RevisionGUID="dfccd501-55e0-4e82-855d-ad967886ae26" CreationDate="2018-08-22T15:57:40.110" UserId="5302" Text="I bought this pendant in Italy around 10 years ago, I think from Rome. &#xA;I’ve always been curious as to what the bird with the sun above it (etched onto the red glossy background) represents. I was a child at the time... I only picked it up because I thought it looked cool without really asking what it is. Could it be a specific symbol in Italian culture/history?&#xA;[![necklace][1]][1]&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/qypnB.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17004" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5084" RevisionGUID="dfccd501-55e0-4e82-855d-ad967886ae26" CreationDate="2018-08-22T15:57:40.110" UserId="5302" Text="What is this symbol on my necklace?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17005" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5084" RevisionGUID="dfccd501-55e0-4e82-855d-ad967886ae26" CreationDate="2018-08-22T15:57:40.110" UserId="5302" Text="|roman|symbolism|history|italy|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17006" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5085" RevisionGUID="99bf9ce8-faf9-432e-8e49-819ba826ef8c" CreationDate="2018-08-22T16:50:54.063" UserId="955" Text="This is the [dove][1] with a halo, as a [christian symbol][2] for the Holy Spirit or the soul.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [colour red][3] is associated with the blood of Christ and with the Holy Spirit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The fact that you bought it in Italy (Rome) supports this, as there is a big christian community as well as many pilgrims and tourists visiting Rome and Vatican City.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.preachingsymbols.com/dove.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doves_as_symbols#Christianity&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red#In_religion" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17007" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5082" RevisionGUID="33326598-9cd3-42d3-9441-725392d58c42" CreationDate="2018-08-22T20:42:59.380" UserId="5294" Comment="added 11 characters in body" Text="Mostly for curiosities sake: when was the earliest documented tale of Sasquatch told by the native Americans? Would that be during the 1850’s?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17008" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5086" RevisionGUID="f6436472-fc5c-4983-8b9a-0d77358fd2df" CreationDate="2018-08-23T07:27:44.557" UserId="2774" Text="What you can expect to find are &quot;Europeans&quot; interested in native Americans and who recorded their life, style, legends, culture in books. Most of them are starting around the 1800 era (conquest of the west roughly).&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Let's give an example. A considerably interesting book is Wandering of an artist among the Indians of North America by Paul Kane. It is an incredibly good book for anyone into native Americans culture mostly because vastly detailed and by someone not too biased and also not a novel. He is describing a specific creature in the Mount St Helen area (book written in 1859 but from a voyage of 1847):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When we arrived at the mouth of the Kattlepoutal River, twenty-six&#xD;&#xA;&gt; miles from Fort Vancouver, I stopped to make a sketch of the volcano,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mount St. Helen's, distant, I suppose, about thirty or forty miles.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This mountain has never been visited by either Whites or Indians; the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; latter assert that it is inhabited by a race of beings of a different&#xD;&#xA;&gt; species, who are cannibals, and whom they hold in great dread; they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; also say that there is a lake at its base with a very extraordinary&#xD;&#xA;&gt; kind of fish in it, with a head more resembling that of a bear than&#xD;&#xA;&gt; any other animal. These superstitions are taken from the statement of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a man who, they say, went to the mountain with another, and escaped&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the fate of his companion, who was eaten by the &quot; Skoocooms,&quot; or evil&#xD;&#xA;&gt; genii. I offered a considerable bribe to any Indian who would&#xD;&#xA;&gt; accompany me in its exploration, but could not find one hardy enough&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to venture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One thing of interest here is the area, Mount St Helen, where actually the first picture of a sasquatch footprint was taken in the 1930 something.&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That is the kind of things you can expect to find in fairly early records. Nothing too sasquatchy or wendigoy, what we call sasquatch or wendigo are more recent creature generally from the 1930 era. But they are to the native Amerian what the castle of Bran is for Dracula.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;You can see a fairly similar question about the Wendigo [here][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/hhsoT.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1832/how-are-wendigos-similar-defeated/1847#1847" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17009" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5087" RevisionGUID="522776a2-8f4e-4718-a5c9-6ecdd1db476d" CreationDate="2018-08-23T17:56:39.113" UserId="5307" Text="In the ancient sources it's sometimes said to be a joint or cumulative enterprise, with various people adding specific letters. Cadmus king of Thebes is often mentioned, and so is Palamedes, who is credited by the poet Stesichorus with inventing the alphabet:  for example, in a manuscript in the Vatican Library (Cod. Vat. 711), on folio 97 the anonymous author states that originally the Greeks used 'Phoenician letters', but then wise Palamedes came along and invented the letters alpha beta gamma delta epsilon iota kappa lambda mu nu omicron pi rho sigma tau and upsilon. (χρὴ εἰδέναι ὅτι πρότερον Ἕλληνες Φοινικοῖς ἐχρῶντο γράμμασιν· ὕστερον δε ἐλθὼν ὁ Παλαμήδης ἀνὴρ εἰδὼς πάσης ἐπιστήμης ἕμπλεως, ἀρξάμενος ἀπὸ τοῦ α δέκα ἓξ μόνα στοιχεῖα εὗρε τοῖς Ἕλλησιν· α β γ δ ε ι κ λ μ ν ο π ρ σ τ καὶ υ.) Other sources give Palamedes as few as four, not sixteen. All very fanciful, of course - the Greeks hated not having a name for the first person to do something." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17010" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5087" RevisionGUID="341cdd5f-84b8-435f-ac0f-bf054e4f93f0" CreationDate="2018-08-23T18:52:40.680" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; improved formatting" Text="In the ancient sources it's sometimes said to be a joint or cumulative enterprise, with various people adding specific letters. Cadmus, king of Thebes, is often mentioned, and so is Palamedes, who is credited by the poet Stesichorus with inventing the alphabet. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, in a manuscript in the Vatican Library (Cod. Vat. 711), on folio 97 the anonymous author states that originally the Greeks used 'Phoenician letters', but then wise Palamedes came along and invented the letters alpha, beta, gamma, delta, epsilon, iota, kappa, lambda, mu, nu, omicron, pi, rho, sigma, tau and upsilon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; χρὴ εἰδέναι ὅτι πρότερον Ἕλληνες Φοινικοῖς ἐχρῶντο γράμμασιν· ὕστερον&#xD;&#xA;&gt; δε ἐλθὼν ὁ Παλαμήδης ἀνὴρ εἰδὼς πάσης ἐπιστήμης ἕμπλεως, ἀρξάμενος ἀπὸ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; τοῦ α δέκα ἓξ μόνα στοιχεῖα εὗρε τοῖς Ἕλλησιν· α β γ δ ε ι κ λ μ ν ο π&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ρ σ τ καὶ υ.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other sources give Palamedes as few as four, not sixteen. All very fanciful, of course - the Greeks hated not having a name for the first person to do something." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17014" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5082" RevisionGUID="d3423f3a-5d2a-4a76-abf4-ec08aa381b48" CreationDate="2018-08-24T14:39:58.720" UserId="2687" Comment="Not what the tag means. " Text="|cryptozoology|sasquatch|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17015" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5082" RevisionGUID="d3423f3a-5d2a-4a76-abf4-ec08aa381b48" CreationDate="2018-08-24T14:39:58.720" Comment="Proposed by 2687 approved by 42, 183 edit id of 1670" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17016" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1713" RevisionGUID="51bf14be-1969-45df-a40e-55c8bf997dfb" CreationDate="2018-08-24T14:40:34.213" UserId="183" Comment="Removed incorrectly used tag." Text="|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17020" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5086" RevisionGUID="8fd9bcc4-98b1-4804-a1aa-96371ac8037f" CreationDate="2018-08-27T08:56:14.703" UserId="1317" Comment="Added a link" Text="What you can expect to find are &quot;Europeans&quot; interested in native Americans and who recorded their life, style, legends, culture in books. Most of them are starting around the 1800 era (conquest of the west roughly).&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Let's give an example. A considerably interesting book is _[Wandering of an artist among the Indians of North America](https://books.google.com/books/about/Wanderings_of_an_Artist_Among_the_Indian.html?id=8pk7jgEACAAJ&amp;source=kp_book_description)_ by Paul Kane. It is an incredibly good book for anyone into native Americans culture mostly because vastly detailed and by someone not too biased and also not a novel. He is describing a specific creature in the Mount St Helen area (book written in 1859 but from a voyage of 1847):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When we arrived at the mouth of the Kattlepoutal River, twenty-six&#xD;&#xA;&gt; miles from Fort Vancouver, I stopped to make a sketch of the volcano,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mount St. Helen's, distant, I suppose, about thirty or forty miles.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This mountain has never been visited by either Whites or Indians; the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; latter assert that it is inhabited by a race of beings of a different&#xD;&#xA;&gt; species, who are cannibals, and whom they hold in great dread; they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; also say that there is a lake at its base with a very extraordinary&#xD;&#xA;&gt; kind of fish in it, with a head more resembling that of a bear than&#xD;&#xA;&gt; any other animal. These superstitions are taken from the statement of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a man who, they say, went to the mountain with another, and escaped&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the fate of his companion, who was eaten by the &quot; Skoocooms,&quot; or evil&#xD;&#xA;&gt; genii. I offered a considerable bribe to any Indian who would&#xD;&#xA;&gt; accompany me in its exploration, but could not find one hardy enough&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to venture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One thing of interest here is the area, Mount St Helen, where actually the first picture of a sasquatch footprint was taken in the 1930 something.&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That is the kind of things you can expect to find in fairly early records. Nothing too sasquatchy or wendigoy, what we call sasquatch or wendigo are more recent creature generally from the 1930 era. But they are to the native Amerian what the castle of Bran is for Dracula.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;You can see a fairly similar question about the Wendigo [here][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/hhsoT.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1832/how-are-wendigos-similar-defeated/1847#1847" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17021" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5086" RevisionGUID="8fd9bcc4-98b1-4804-a1aa-96371ac8037f" CreationDate="2018-08-27T08:56:14.703" Comment="Proposed by 1317 approved by 2774 edit id of 1673" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17022" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5089" RevisionGUID="3f92e852-6357-4fc0-95c1-945f835ee64a" CreationDate="2018-08-27T19:25:02.787" UserId="5317" Text="Norse mythology knows some terms for quite complex concepts, such as &quot;[Ragnarök][1]&quot;. Is there a term for [Odin's nine-day self-sacrifice][2]?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar%C3%B6k&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://norse-mythology.org/tales/odins-discovery-of-the-runes/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17023" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5089" RevisionGUID="3f92e852-6357-4fc0-95c1-945f835ee64a" CreationDate="2018-08-27T19:25:02.787" UserId="5317" Text="Is there a specific term in Norse mythology for Odin's self-sacrifice?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17024" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5089" RevisionGUID="3f92e852-6357-4fc0-95c1-945f835ee64a" CreationDate="2018-08-27T19:25:02.787" UserId="5317" Text="|norse|odin|sacrifice|yggdrasil|terminology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17025" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5090" RevisionGUID="56a590a8-002e-43ce-a024-4360c7e9d5aa" CreationDate="2018-08-27T20:06:35.337" UserId="666" Text="**Nope.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story is known only through [Hávamál][1], a piece of poetry from the poetic Edda, in which it takes up two stanzas. The relevant here is stanza 138:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    Veit ek, at ek hekk&lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    vindga meiði á&lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    nætr allar níu,&lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    geiri undaðr&lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    ok gefinn Óðni,&lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    sjalfr sjalfum mér,&lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    á þeim meiði,&lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    er manngi veit&lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    hvers af rótum renn.&lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Hávamál, stanza 138, from [Heimskringla.no][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The relevant word here is &quot;gefinn&quot;. This appears to be a normal verb, the Old Norse equivalent of &quot;[given][3]&quot;. So no, there was no specific term for this sacrifice, at least none that we know of.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A1vam%C3%A1l&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.heimskringla.no/wiki/H%C3%A1vam%C3%A1l&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gefa" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17026" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4820" RevisionGUID="5912a124-4036-4f33-be0f-ea24c92a754c" CreationDate="2018-08-28T01:00:04.890" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="17027" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1713" RevisionGUID="1b0cac46-770a-4708-a6b3-f315a220adac" CreationDate="2018-08-28T09:47:24.977" UserId="5294" Comment="This tag makes sense based upon the question asked." Text="|norse|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17028" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1713" RevisionGUID="1b0cac46-770a-4708-a6b3-f315a220adac" CreationDate="2018-08-28T09:47:24.977" Comment="Proposed by 5294 approved by 2774, 2669 edit id of 1671" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17029" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5090" RevisionGUID="d961be3b-013c-4860-9c06-60d85ddf47ec" CreationDate="2018-08-28T10:10:29.747" UserId="201" Comment="added English translation" Text="**Nope.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story is known only through [Hávamál][1], a piece of poetry from the poetic Edda, in which it takes up two stanzas. The relevant here is stanza 138:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    Veit ek, at ek hekk&lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    vindga meiði á&lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    nætr allar níu,&lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    geiri undaðr&lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    ok gefinn Óðni,&lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    sjalfr sjalfum mér,&lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    á þeim meiði,&lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    er manngi veit&lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    hvers af rótum renn.&lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Hávamál, stanza 138, from [Heimskringla.no][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;English translation:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I know that I hung&lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;upon a windy tree&lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;for nine whole nights,&lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;wounded with a spear&lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;and given to Odin,&lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;myself to myself for me;&lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;on that tree&lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;I knew nothing&lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;of what kind of roots it came from.&lt;br /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.beyondweird.com/high-one.html&quot;&gt;Source&lt;/a&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The relevant word here is &quot;gefinn&quot;. This appears to be a normal verb, the Old Norse equivalent of &quot;[given][3]&quot;. So no, there was no specific term for this sacrifice, at least none that we know of.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A1vam%C3%A1l&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.heimskringla.no/wiki/H%C3%A1vam%C3%A1l&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gefa" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17030" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1853" RevisionGUID="287356b6-62be-4ad9-a9d2-829dac224a92" CreationDate="2018-08-28T20:49:44.927" UserId="5294" Comment="Tag makes sense to me " Text="|animals|the-devil|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17031" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1853" RevisionGUID="287356b6-62be-4ad9-a9d2-829dac224a92" CreationDate="2018-08-28T20:49:44.927" Comment="Proposed by 5294 approved by 2774, 292 edit id of 1674" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17032" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5083" RevisionGUID="07b2aae7-77ed-4be3-9b29-6d92c2d2b222" CreationDate="2018-08-28T20:51:54.317" UserId="292" Comment="added 7 characters in body" Text="Stephan Grundy's *Odhinn the Cult of Death*, and Diana Paxson's *Odin: Ecstasy, Runes, and Norse Practical Magic* are both pretty good, and available on Amazon. If you've already read the *Prose* and *Poetic Edda* you'll have a good grounding in Norse myth generally, these two books will probably answer your questions." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17033" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3227" RevisionGUID="2274eb59-dacb-4e2c-911f-42dc01ce4a1f" CreationDate="2018-08-29T15:01:54.360" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="17034" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5091" RevisionGUID="da8697ca-639c-48ef-8c27-6fd7a6c9041f" CreationDate="2018-08-30T18:53:57.040" UserId="5325" Text="In Bram Stoker's Dracula, it was hinted that he may have taken form of a bat while visiting the asylum inmate, Renfield. Is that possible? And could he take form of all the other animals, like wolves or owls?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17035" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5091" RevisionGUID="da8697ca-639c-48ef-8c27-6fd7a6c9041f" CreationDate="2018-08-30T18:53:57.040" UserId="5325" Text="Can Vampires Take Form of Nocturnal Animals?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17036" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5091" RevisionGUID="da8697ca-639c-48ef-8c27-6fd7a6c9041f" CreationDate="2018-08-30T18:53:57.040" UserId="5325" Text="|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17037" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="4942" RevisionGUID="380783cf-44c3-4a0a-a2f2-715e3bf52c78" CreationDate="2018-08-30T21:04:53.100" UserId="5294" Comment="This tag in my opinion should be here " Text="|mythical-creatures|vampires|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17038" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4942" RevisionGUID="380783cf-44c3-4a0a-a2f2-715e3bf52c78" CreationDate="2018-08-30T21:04:53.100" Comment="Proposed by 5294 approved by 2774, 2892 edit id of 1672" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17039" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5091" RevisionGUID="bef85cf9-9a42-4825-9195-b924cccd65ab" CreationDate="2018-08-30T21:08:15.630" UserId="2892" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|folklore|vampires|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17040" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5092" RevisionGUID="533a9c93-470c-4cef-b60e-22e5dbc5f823" CreationDate="2018-08-31T00:41:09.857" UserId="5327" Text="if I remember right it's also suggested he turns into a large dog at some point in London so the dog or wolf could be possible.&#xD;&#xA;do you specifically mean European vampires because most cultures have some folklore on undead that feed on blood" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17041" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5093" RevisionGUID="46ec9457-2d13-4423-8057-fac3bd48e033" CreationDate="2018-08-31T04:00:05.847" UserId="5328" Text="So basically, I want to learn more about Zulu (or possibly some other South African culture) polytheism, among other things. Trouble is, it's hard to find a lot information about it, even from ye olde Google and some stub pages on Wikipedia. I can find some basic stuff, sure; but nothing really in-depth like you can find with even Slavic mythology. It's not clear if the small number of gods' names I'm finding is because they only had a handful of gods or because there's such scant information available. This sucks because I'm compiling information on a lot of mythologies for use in a novel some years down the road.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Obviously, a StackExchange board may not be the best place to ask about how to solve this problem, but I don't really know where to turn here. I'm also plagued by the fact that there's some other mythologies that aren't quite as hard to find information on (i.e. Inuit mythology), but which I still can't find a whole lot about. To clarify, I'm looking for definitive lists of all the most significant and/or widespread deities (as well as heroes and creatures) and noteworthy myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, I turn to you guys to ask how I can most effectively look for detailed, reliable sources about mythologies that Wikipedia and the first 10 pages of Google won't help me out with. If there just isn't a lot of information available, then that's fine; but I at least need to know that there is, in fact, a straight answer to the question of whether I can find the information I want at all." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17042" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5093" RevisionGUID="46ec9457-2d13-4423-8057-fac3bd48e033" CreationDate="2018-08-31T04:00:05.847" UserId="5328" Text="What's the best way to go about researching obscure mythologies?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17043" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5093" RevisionGUID="46ec9457-2d13-4423-8057-fac3bd48e033" CreationDate="2018-08-31T04:00:05.847" UserId="5328" Text="|folklore|source-request|reference-request|folkloristics|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17044" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5094" RevisionGUID="3d369e39-e7b1-43f0-a74d-12594226f144" CreationDate="2018-08-31T21:05:46.647" UserId="5329" Text="Killing of the suitors  idk like is this kingdom so short on soldiers that the family can't deal with a few suitors or is Odysseus that legendary of a warrior?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17045" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5094" RevisionGUID="3d369e39-e7b1-43f0-a74d-12594226f144" CreationDate="2018-08-31T21:05:46.647" UserId="5329" Text="The Odyssey killing of the suitors why need odyseus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17046" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5094" RevisionGUID="3d369e39-e7b1-43f0-a74d-12594226f144" CreationDate="2018-08-31T21:05:46.647" UserId="5329" Text="|odyssey|odysseus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17047" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5095" RevisionGUID="10edee46-7e3c-409e-be17-d995f363d174" CreationDate="2018-09-01T14:31:41.733" UserId="1317" Text="Remember that Odysseus took all of Ithaca's soldiers away with him to Troy ***and none of them made it back***. The only soldiers left were the kids too young to go off to the Trojan War. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But even then, who would command any such soldiers? With Odysseus dead, who was going to rule Ithaca?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It couldn't be Telemachus, yet. He was a newborn when Odysseus left, a child when the suitors started plaguing Penelope, and an untested youth at the time of the events of the Odyssey.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It might have been Odysseus's father Laertes. He was once the king, but he was an old man, and had retired after passing the crown to his son. When Odysseus sees him for the first time after returning, he remarks on the old man's poor condition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It couldn't be Penelope. When it comes to misogyny, ancient Greek society was right up there with the worst of them. There was no question of a woman ruling on her own (the Amazons being a notable exception, but they fought on the side of Troy). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only way a woman held status was through her husband. If Odysseus was actually dead, everyone expected Penelope to marry _someone_. And whoever married her would be the ruler of Ithaca. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This gets to your question about a &quot;lack of soldiers&quot;: *the suitors **were** the soldiers*.  They were in fact the likely commanders of any Ithacan army: Since only a noble could vie for the hand of someone like Penelope, these were the same youths who had been too young to go to Troy, now sniffing around for a ticket to power.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As evidence for this, remember that Odysseus's sudden reappearance and slaying of the suitors resulted in more trouble. Their families now wanted to avenge their sons' deaths: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They then met angrily in the place of assembly, and when they were got together Eupeithes rose to speak. He was overwhelmed with grief for the death of his son Antinous, who had been the first man killed by &amp;#91;Odysseus &amp;#93;, so he said, weeping bitterly, &quot;My friend, this man has done the Achaeans great wrong. He took many of our best men away with him in his fleet, and he has lost both ships and men; now, moreover, on his return he has been killing all the foremost men among the Cephallenians.&#xD;&#xA;Let us be up and doing before he can get away to Pylos or to Elis where the Epeans rule, or we shall be ashamed of ourselves for ever afterwards. It will be an everlasting disgrace to us if we do not avenge the murder of our sons and brothers.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([MIT, Internet Classics Online](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/odyssey.24.xxiv.html))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It took Athena and Zeus together to keep them from killing each other off. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But Penelope did not believe Odysseus was dead, thus her delaying tactics with weaving the shroud. And for this, she was held up as an example of constancy and virtue. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So with Odysseus actually still alive, the suitors could be gotten rid of ***only if Odysseus himself did it.***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17048" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5095" RevisionGUID="3350f733-c183-42e5-8cfa-c323bf686d1f" CreationDate="2018-09-01T14:38:54.787" UserId="1317" Comment="added 98 characters in body" Text="Remember that Odysseus took all of Ithaca's soldiers away with him to Troy ***and none of them made it back***. The only soldiers left were the kids too young to go off to the Trojan War.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This answers your question about a &quot;lack of soldiers&quot;: *the suitors **were** the soldiers*.  They were in fact the likely commanders of any Ithacan army: Since only a noble could vie for the hand of someone like Penelope, these were the same youths who had been too young to go to Troy, now sniffing around for a ticket to power.&#xD;&#xA;But even then, who would command any such soldiers? With Odysseus dead, who was going to rule Ithaca?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It couldn't be Telemachus, yet. He was a newborn when Odysseus left, a child when the suitors started plaguing Penelope, and an untested youth at the time of the events of the Odyssey.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It might have been Odysseus's father Laertes. He was once the king, but he was an old man, having retired after passing the crown to his son. And he was pining away for his missing son. When Odysseus sees him for the first time after returning, he remarks on the old man's poor condition, obssessively taking care of his farm, but not himself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It couldn't be Penelope. When it comes to misogyny, ancient Greek society was right up there with the worst of them. There was no question of a woman ruling on her own (the Amazons being a notable exception, but they fought on the side of Troy). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only way a woman held status was through her husband. If Odysseus was actually dead, everyone expected Penelope to marry _someone_. And whoever married her would be the ruler of Ithaca.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But Penelope did not believe Odysseus was dead, thus her delaying tactics with weaving the shroud. And for this, she was held up as an example of constancy and virtue. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So with Odysseus actually still alive, the suitors could be gotten rid of ***only if Odysseus himself did it.***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As evidence for this, remember that Odysseus's sudden reappearance and slaying of the suitors resulted in more trouble. Their families now wanted to avenge their sons' deaths: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They then met angrily in the place of assembly, and when they were got together Eupeithes rose to speak. He was overwhelmed with grief for the death of his son Antinous, who had been the first man killed by &amp;#91;Odysseus &amp;#93;, so he said, weeping bitterly, &quot;My friend, this man has done the Achaeans great wrong. **He took many of our best men away with him in his fleet, and he has lost both ships and men; now, moreover, on his return he has been killing all the foremost men among the Cephallenians.**&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([MIT, Internet Classics Online](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/odyssey.24.xxiv.html))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It took Athena and Zeus together to keep them from killing each other off.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17049" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5095" RevisionGUID="09a7a671-f602-4c7f-9160-e31152d44e15" CreationDate="2018-09-01T14:44:30.160" UserId="1317" Comment="Trying to get the flow right" Text="Remember that Odysseus took all of Ithaca's soldiers away with him to Troy ***and none of them made it back***. The only soldiers left were the kids too young to go off to the Trojan War.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But even then, who would command any such soldiers? With Odysseus dead, who was going to rule Ithaca?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It couldn't be Telemachus, yet. He was a newborn when Odysseus left, a child when the suitors started plaguing Penelope, and an untested youth at the time Odysseus returned.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It might have been Odysseus's father Laertes. He was once the king. But he was an old man, having retired after passing the crown to his son. And he was pining away for his missing son. When Odysseus sees him for the first time after returning, he remarks on the old man's poor condition, obssessively taking care of his farm, but not himself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It couldn't be Penelope. When it comes to misogyny, ancient Greek society was right up there with the worst of them. There was no question of a woman ruling on her own (the Amazons being a notable exception, but they fought on the side of Troy). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only way a woman held status was through her husband. If Odysseus was actually dead, everyone expected Penelope to marry _someone_. And whoever married her would be the ruler of Ithaca.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This answers your question about a &quot;lack of soldiers&quot;: *the suitors **were** the soldiers*.  They were in fact the likely commanders of any Ithacan army: Since only a noble could vie for the hand of someone like Penelope, these were the same youths who had been too young to go to Troy, now sniffing around for a ticket to power.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But Penelope did not believe Odysseus was dead, thus her delaying tactics with weaving the shroud. And for this, she was held up as an example of constancy and virtue. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So with Odysseus actually still alive, the suitors could be gotten rid of ***only if Odysseus himself did it.***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As evidence for this, remember that Odysseus's sudden reappearance and slaying of the suitors resulted in more trouble. Their families now wanted to avenge their sons' deaths: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They then met angrily in the place of assembly, and when they were got together Eupeithes rose to speak. He was overwhelmed with grief for the death of his son Antinous, who had been the first man killed by &amp;#91;Odysseus &amp;#93;, so he said, weeping bitterly, &quot;My friend, this man has done the Achaeans great wrong. **He took many of our best men away with him in his fleet, and he has lost both ships and men; now, moreover, on his return he has been killing all the foremost men among the Cephallenians.**&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([MIT, Internet Classics Online](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/odyssey.24.xxiv.html))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It took Athena and Zeus together to keep them from killing each other off.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17050" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5095" RevisionGUID="bfbcba8d-64f2-4d22-bf84-b0b53873d4f8" CreationDate="2018-09-01T15:26:01.360" UserId="1317" Comment="Tightening" Text="Remember that Odysseus took all of Ithaca's soldiers away with him to Troy ***and none of them made it back***. The only soldiers left were the kids too young to go off to the Trojan War. And these had grown up and saw Penelope as a prize to be claimed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So really *the suitors **were** the soldiers*, or at any rate the ones to whom lower-born solders held fealty. As Telemachus tells a disguised Athena:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;...**the chiefs from all our islands**, Dulichium, Same, and the woodland island of Zacynthus, **as also all the principal men of Ithaca itself**, are eating up my house under the pretext of paying their court to my mother, who will neither point blank say that she will not marry, nor yet bring matters to an end; so they are making havoc of my estate, and before long will do so also with myself.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([MIT Internet Classics Archive](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/odyssey.1.i.html), _The Odyssey_, Book I).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But even then, who would command any such soldiers? With Odysseus dead, who was going to rule Ithaca?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who was in charge? No-one was in charge. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It couldn't be Telemachus, yet. He was a newborn when Odysseus left, a child when the suitors started plaguing Penelope, and an untested youth at the time Odysseus returned. He is nominally in charge of his father's household, but the suitors had no fear of him. They had no fear of anyone.  When Telemachus goes before the council, and Halitherses prophesies doom for the suitors, one of them, Eurymachus, rebukes the latter:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As for Telemachus, I warn him in the presence of you all to send his mother back to her father, who will find her a husband and provide her with all the marriage gifts so dear a daughter may expect. Till we shall go on harassing him with our suit; for we fear no man, and care neither for him, with all his fine speeches, nor for any fortune-telling of yours. You may preach as much as you please, but we shall only hate you the more.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_([Ibid, book II](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/odyssey.2.ii.html))_.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It might have been Odysseus's father Laertes. He was once the king. But he was an old man, having retired after passing the crown to his son. And he was pining away for his missing son. When Odysseus sees him for the first time after returning, he remarks on the old man's poor condition, obssessively taking care of his farm, but not himself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It couldn't be Penelope. When it comes to misogyny, ancient Greek society was right up there with the worst of them. There was no question of a woman ruling on her own (the Amazons being a notable exception, but they fought on the side of Troy). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only way a woman held status was through her husband. If Odysseus was actually dead, everyone expected Penelope to marry _someone_. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But Penelope did not believe Odysseus was dead, thus her dithering and delaying tactics with weaving the shroud. And for this, she was held up as an example of constancy and virtue. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So with Odysseus actually still alive, the suitors could be gotten rid of ***only if Odysseus himself did it.***&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17051" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5095" RevisionGUID="59626a4c-927e-48c7-80ed-f68d9ab8b161" CreationDate="2018-09-01T15:36:34.937" UserId="1317" Comment="Enough already" Text="Who was in charge? No-one was in charge. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Remember that Odysseus took all of Ithaca's soldiers away with him to Troy ***and none of them made it back***. The only soldiers left were the kids too young to go off to the Trojan War. And these had grown up and saw Penelope as a prize to be claimed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So really *the suitors **were** the soldiers*, or at any rate the ones to whom lower-born solders held fealty. As Telemachus tells a disguised Athena:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;...**the chiefs from all our islands**, Dulichium, Same, and the woodland island of Zacynthus, **as also all the principal men of Ithaca itself**, are eating up my house under the pretext of paying their court to my mother, who will neither point blank say that she will not marry, nor yet bring matters to an end; so they are making havoc of my estate, and before long will do so also with myself.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([MIT Internet Classics Archive](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/odyssey.1.i.html), _The Odyssey_, Book I).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Telemachus couldn't make the suitors go away. A newborn when Odysseus left, a child when the suitors started plaguing Penelope, Telemachus was an untested youth at the time Odysseus returned. He is nominally in charge of his father's household, but the suitors had no fear of him. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They had no fear of anyone.  When Telemachus goes before the council, and Halitherses prophesies doom for the suitors, one of them, Eurymachus, says this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As for Telemachus, I warn him in the presence of you all to send his mother back to her father, who will find her a husband and provide her with all the marriage gifts so dear a daughter may expect. Till we shall go on harassing him with our suit; for we fear no man, and care neither for him, with all his fine speeches, nor for any fortune-telling of yours. You may preach as much as you please, but we shall only hate you the more.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_([Ibid, book II](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/odyssey.2.ii.html))_.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odysseus's father Laertes was once the king. But he was an old man, having retired after passing the crown to his son. And he was pining away for his missing son. When Odysseus sees him for the first time after returning, he remarks on the old man's poor condition, obssessively taking care of his farm, but not himself. So it was unlikely that he would undertake the clearance of his son's household.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It couldn't be Penelope. When it comes to misogyny, ancient Greek society was right up there with the worst of them. There was no question of a woman commanding soldiers (the Amazons being a notable exception, but they fought on the side of Troy). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only way a woman held status was through her husband. If Odysseus was actually dead, everyone expected Penelope to marry _someone_. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But Penelope did not believe Odysseus was dead, thus her dithering and delaying tactics with weaving the shroud. And for this, she was held up as an example of constancy and virtue. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So with Odysseus actually still alive, the suitors could be gotten rid of ***only if Odysseus himself did it.***&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17052" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5095" RevisionGUID="cda07729-f4f2-4960-81a4-4b65faeab98f" CreationDate="2018-09-02T23:25:21.050" UserId="1317" Comment="added 447 characters in body" Text="Who was in charge? No-one was in charge. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Remember that Odysseus took all of Ithaca's soldiers away with him to Troy ***and none of them made it back***. The only soldiers left were the kids too young to go off to the Trojan War. And these had grown up and saw Penelope as a prize to be claimed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So really *the suitors **were** the soldiers*, or at any rate the ones to whom lower-born solders held fealty. As Telemachus tells a disguised Athena:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;...**the chiefs from all our islands**, Dulichium, Same, and the woodland island of Zacynthus, **as also all the principal men of Ithaca itself**, are eating up my house under the pretext of paying their court to my mother, who will neither point blank say that she will not marry, nor yet bring matters to an end; so they are making havoc of my estate, and before long will do so also with myself.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([MIT Internet Classics Archive](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/odyssey.1.i.html), _The Odyssey_, Book I).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Telemachus couldn't make the suitors go away. A newborn when Odysseus left, a child when the suitors started plaguing Penelope, Telemachus was an untested youth at the time Odysseus returned. He is nominally in charge of his father's household, but the suitors had no fear of him. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They had no fear of anyone.  When Telemachus goes before the council, and Halitherses prophesies doom for the suitors, one of them, Eurymachus, says this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As for Telemachus, I warn him in the presence of you all to send his mother back to her father, who will find her a husband and provide her with all the marriage gifts so dear a daughter may expect. Till we shall go on harassing him with our suit; for we fear no man, and care neither for him, with all his fine speeches, nor for any fortune-telling of yours. You may preach as much as you please, but we shall only hate you the more.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_([Ibid, book II](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/odyssey.2.ii.html))_.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odysseus's father Laertes was once the king. But he was an old man, having retired after passing the crown to his son. And he was pining away for his missing son. When Odysseus sees him for the first time after returning, he remarks on the old man's poor condition, obssessively taking care of his farm, but not himself. So it was unlikely that he would undertake the clearance of his son's household.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It couldn't be Penelope. When it comes to misogyny, ancient Greek society was right up there with the worst of them. There was no question of a woman commanding soldiers (the Amazons being a notable exception, but they fought on the side of Troy). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only way a woman held status was through her husband. If Odysseus was actually dead, everyone expected Penelope to marry _someone_. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But Penelope did not believe Odysseus was dead, thus her dithering and delaying tactics with weaving the shroud. And for this, she was held up as an example of constancy and virtue. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So with Odysseus actually still alive, the suitors could be gotten rid of ***only if Odysseus himself did it.***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And Odysseus had no intention of giving quarter to any of the ruffians who had disrespected his household and mooched off him for so long:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&amp;#91;Odysseus&amp;#93; glared at them and said: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Dogs, did you think that I should not come back from Troy? You have wasted my substance, have forced my women servants to lie with you, and have wooed my wife while I was still living. You have feared neither Cod nor man, ***and now you shall die***." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17053" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5095" RevisionGUID="7dc9ec08-3ac6-49ba-898d-42cc970d4f7c" CreationDate="2018-09-02T23:30:26.637" UserId="1317" Comment="added 447 characters in body" Text="Who was in charge? No-one was in charge. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Remember that Odysseus took all of Ithaca's soldiers away with him to Troy ***and none of them made it back***. The only soldiers left were the kids too young to go off to the Trojan War. And these had grown up and saw Penelope as a prize to be claimed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So really *the suitors **were** the soldiers*, or at any rate the ones to whom lower-born solders held fealty. As Telemachus tells a disguised Athena:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;...**the chiefs from all our islands**, Dulichium, Same, and the woodland island of Zacynthus, **as also all the principal men of Ithaca itself**, are eating up my house under the pretext of paying their court to my mother, who will neither point blank say that she will not marry, nor yet bring matters to an end; so they are making havoc of my estate, and before long will do so also with myself.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([MIT Internet Classics Archive](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/odyssey.1.i.html), _The Odyssey_, Book I).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Telemachus couldn't make the suitors go away. A newborn when Odysseus left, a child when the suitors started plaguing Penelope, Telemachus was an untested youth at the time Odysseus returned. He is nominally in charge of his father's household, but the suitors had no fear of him. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They had no fear of anyone.  When Telemachus goes before the council, and Halitherses prophesies doom for the suitors, one of them, Eurymachus, says this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As for Telemachus, I warn him in the presence of you all to send his mother back to her father, who will find her a husband and provide her with all the marriage gifts so dear a daughter may expect. Till we shall go on harassing him with our suit; for we fear no man, and care neither for him, with all his fine speeches, nor for any fortune-telling of yours. You may preach as much as you please, but we shall only hate you the more.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_([Ibid, book II](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/odyssey.2.ii.html))_.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odysseus's father Laertes was once the king. But he was an old man, having retired after passing the crown to his son. And he was pining away for his missing son. When Odysseus sees him for the first time after returning, he remarks on the old man's poor condition, obssessively taking care of his farm, but not himself. So it was unlikely that he would undertake the clearance of his son's household.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It couldn't be Penelope. When it comes to misogyny, ancient Greek society was right up there with the worst of them. There was no question of a woman commanding soldiers (the Amazons being a notable exception, but they fought on the side of Troy). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only way a woman held status was through her husband. If Odysseus was actually dead, everyone expected Penelope to marry _someone_. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But Penelope did not believe Odysseus was dead, thus her dithering and delaying tactics with weaving the shroud. And for this, she was held up as an example of constancy and virtue. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So with Odysseus actually still alive, the suitors could be gotten rid of ***only if Odysseus himself did it.***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And Odysseus had no intention of giving quarter to any of the ruffians who had disrespected his household and mooched off him for so long:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&amp;#91;Odysseus&amp;#93; glared at them and said: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Dogs, did you think that I should not come back from Troy? You have wasted my substance, have forced my women servants to lie with you, and have wooed my wife while I was still living. You have feared neither Cod nor man, ***and now you shall die***.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And later:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Though you should give me all that you have in the world both now and all that you ever shall have, I will not stay my hand till I have paid all of you in full. You must fight, or fly for your lives; and fly, not a man of you shall.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17054" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5095" RevisionGUID="7fb0b003-05bc-415c-ab3c-50030b10ff8f" CreationDate="2018-09-03T00:11:09.607" UserId="1317" Comment="added 70 characters in body" Text="Who was in charge? No-one was in charge. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Remember that Odysseus took all of Ithaca's soldiers away with him to Troy ***and none of them made it back***. The only soldiers left were the kids too young to go off to the Trojan War. And these had grown up and saw Penelope as a prize to be claimed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So really *the suitors **were** the soldiers*, or at any rate the ones to whom lower-born solders held fealty. As Telemachus tells a disguised Athena:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;...**the chiefs from all our islands**, Dulichium, Same, and the woodland island of Zacynthus, **as also all the principal men of Ithaca itself**, are eating up my house under the pretext of paying their court to my mother, who will neither point blank say that she will not marry, nor yet bring matters to an end; so they are making havoc of my estate, and before long will do so also with myself.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([MIT Internet Classics Archive](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/odyssey.1.i.html), _The Odyssey_, Book I).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Telemachus couldn't make the suitors go away. A newborn when Odysseus left, a child when the suitors started plaguing Penelope, Telemachus was an untested youth at the time Odysseus returned. He is nominally in charge of his father's household, but the suitors had no fear of him. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They had no fear of anyone.  When Telemachus goes before the council, and Halitherses prophesies doom for the suitors, one of them, Eurymachus, says this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As for Telemachus, I warn him in the presence of you all to send his mother back to her father, who will find her a husband and provide her with all the marriage gifts so dear a daughter may expect. Till we shall go on harassing him with our suit; for we fear no man, and care neither for him, with all his fine speeches, nor for any fortune-telling of yours. You may preach as much as you please, but we shall only hate you the more.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_([Ibid, book II](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/odyssey.2.ii.html))_.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odysseus's father Laertes was once the king. But he was an old man, having retired after passing the crown to his son. And he was pining away for his missing son. When Odysseus sees him for the first time after returning, he remarks on the old man's poor condition, obssessively taking care of his farm, but not himself. So it was unlikely that he would undertake the clearance of his son's household.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It couldn't be Penelope. When it comes to misogyny, ancient Greek society was right up there with the worst of them. There was no question of a woman commanding soldiers (the Amazons being a notable exception, but they fought on the side of Troy). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only way a woman held status was through her husband. If Odysseus was actually dead, everyone expected Penelope to marry _someone_. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But Penelope did not believe Odysseus was dead, thus her dithering and delaying tactics with weaving the shroud. And for this, she was held up as an example of constancy and virtue. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So with Odysseus actually still alive, the suitors could be gotten rid of ***only if Odysseus himself did it.***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And Odysseus had no intention of giving quarter to any of the ruffians who had disrespected his household and mooched off him for so long:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&amp;#91;Odysseus&amp;#93; glared at them and said: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Dogs, did you think that I should not come back from Troy? You have wasted my substance, have forced my women servants to lie with you, and have wooed my wife while I was still living. You have feared neither Cod nor man, ***and now you shall die***.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And later:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Though you should give me all that you have in the world both now and all that you ever shall have, I will not stay my hand till I have paid all of you in full. You must fight, or fly for your lives; and fly, not a man of you shall.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_([Book XXII](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/odyssey.22.xxii.html)_&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17065" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5094" RevisionGUID="211c76ee-5902-43d2-aa41-05c54c7d412d" CreationDate="2018-09-05T09:31:01.837" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 77 characters in body; edited title" Text="Is his kingdom so short on soldiers that the family can't deal with a few suitors?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17066" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5094" RevisionGUID="211c76ee-5902-43d2-aa41-05c54c7d412d" CreationDate="2018-09-05T09:31:01.837" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 77 characters in body; edited title" Text="Why was Odysseus needed for killing the suitors in the Odyssey?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17067" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5095" RevisionGUID="c8601cc9-ea13-4fe3-b330-c391ef6b4268" CreationDate="2018-09-05T11:04:45.267" UserId="1317" Comment="Fixed fishy OCR error" Text="Who was in charge? No-one was in charge. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Remember that Odysseus took all of Ithaca's soldiers away with him to Troy ***and none of them made it back***. The only soldiers left were the kids too young to go off to the Trojan War. And these had grown up and saw Penelope as a prize to be claimed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So really *the suitors **were** the soldiers*, or at any rate the ones to whom lower-born solders held fealty. As Telemachus tells a disguised Athena:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;...**the chiefs from all our islands**, Dulichium, Same, and the woodland island of Zacynthus, **as also all the principal men of Ithaca itself**, are eating up my house under the pretext of paying their court to my mother, who will neither point blank say that she will not marry, nor yet bring matters to an end; so they are making havoc of my estate, and before long will do so also with myself.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([MIT Internet Classics Archive](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/odyssey.1.i.html), _The Odyssey_, Book I).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Telemachus couldn't make the suitors go away. A newborn when Odysseus left, a child when the suitors started plaguing Penelope, Telemachus was an untested youth at the time Odysseus returned. He is nominally in charge of his father's household, but the suitors had no fear of him. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They had no fear of anyone.  When Telemachus goes before the council, and Halitherses prophesies doom for the suitors, one of them, Eurymachus, says this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As for Telemachus, I warn him in the presence of you all to send his mother back to her father, who will find her a husband and provide her with all the marriage gifts so dear a daughter may expect. Till we shall go on harassing him with our suit; for we fear no man, and care neither for him, with all his fine speeches, nor for any fortune-telling of yours. You may preach as much as you please, but we shall only hate you the more.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_([Ibid, book II](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/odyssey.2.ii.html))_.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odysseus's father Laertes was once the king. But he was an old man, having retired after passing the crown to his son. And he was pining away for his missing son. When Odysseus sees him for the first time after returning, he remarks on the old man's poor condition, obssessively taking care of his farm, but not himself. So it was unlikely that he would undertake the clearance of his son's household.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It couldn't be Penelope. When it comes to misogyny, ancient Greek society was right up there with the worst of them. There was no question of a woman commanding soldiers (the Amazons being a notable exception, but they fought on the side of Troy). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only way a woman held status was through her husband. If Odysseus was actually dead, everyone expected Penelope to marry _someone_. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But Penelope did not believe Odysseus was dead, thus her dithering and delaying tactics with weaving the shroud. And for this, she was held up as an example of constancy and virtue. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So with Odysseus actually still alive, the suitors could be gotten rid of ***only if Odysseus himself did it.***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And Odysseus had no intention of giving quarter to any of the ruffians who had disrespected his household and mooched off him for so long:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&amp;#91;Odysseus&amp;#93; glared at them and said: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Dogs, did you think that I should not come back from Troy? You have wasted my substance, have forced my women servants to lie with you, and have wooed my wife while I was still living. You have feared neither &amp;#91;God&amp;#93; nor man, ***and now you shall die***.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And later:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Though you should give me all that you have in the world both now and all that you ever shall have, I will not stay my hand till I have paid all of you in full. You must fight, or fly for your lives; and fly, not a man of you shall.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_([Book XXII](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/odyssey.22.xxii.html))_&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17068" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5098" RevisionGUID="c59185f8-20ce-4d7f-88f5-7c81d422344d" CreationDate="2018-09-07T10:28:42.917" UserId="742" Text="I have seen quoted in the name of [Marsilio Ficino][1] (1433-1499), also spelled Marcellus Ficin, that all nations of the world worship a God whose name is spelled with four letters. Does anybody know where this might occur in Ficino's writings and if there has been any discussion of Ficino's assertion?&#xD;&#xA;The source where I saw this quoted was in The Concilliator by Rabbi Manasseh ben Israel of Amsterdam (1604-1657), see [here on Google Books][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsilio_Ficino&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.co.il/books?id=gRNNAQAAMAAJ&amp;lpg=PA194&amp;ots=a7uJkewAo6&amp;dq=Marcellus%20Ficin%20four&amp;pg=PA194#v=onepage&amp;q=Marcellus%20Ficin%20four&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17069" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5098" RevisionGUID="c59185f8-20ce-4d7f-88f5-7c81d422344d" CreationDate="2018-09-07T10:28:42.917" UserId="742" Text="Where does Marsilio Ficino write that all nations refer to God with a four-letter name?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17070" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5098" RevisionGUID="c59185f8-20ce-4d7f-88f5-7c81d422344d" CreationDate="2018-09-07T10:28:42.917" UserId="742" Text="|monomyth|numerology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17075" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5100" RevisionGUID="d5ac1464-26ca-4255-a92c-6a84554f771c" CreationDate="2018-09-10T01:39:05.827" UserId="5348" Text="I think it makes most sense to be Beyla. She is said to be goddess of bees and a servant to Freya." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17076" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5101" RevisionGUID="a8839548-3baf-451f-a536-c9d13d8e9443" CreationDate="2018-09-10T05:03:22.183" UserId="5349" Text="Read something somewhere of a story of Thor running across a magic male cat who was singing to two grey kittens. When Thor asked if the cat was the father it said yes and explains that he methrew a girl cat and they had the kittens and the mother cat left him as a single parent. The cat then asks Thor for help.  Thor accepts thinking to give the kittens to Freya. The magic cato then turns into a bird and flies away.. &#xD;&#xA;Speculation is then they are the &quot;Russian Blue&quot; breed. &#xD;&#xA;Being as they had a magical father they could possibly be strong enough to pull a chariot, maybe change their size at will?  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17077" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5102" RevisionGUID="ace08d6f-b907-4a64-93e7-2206574cca2a" CreationDate="2018-09-10T13:06:44.447" UserId="5350" Text="Obv Dawny33 hasn’t probably researched The Cockatrice &amp; Basilisk before posting and trying to answer your question correctly luckily I have &amp; obv yannis editing did not help so here hope this helps!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cockatrice &#xD;&#xA;—————&#xD;&#xA;Always depicted as a large rooster has the ability to fly spit poison venoms sometimes breath fire and has a petrifying gaze &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: The Cockatrice is much larger than the Basilisk in the Basilisk’s rooster formation!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Basilisk &#xD;&#xA;———-&#xD;&#xA;IT really all comes down to which type of Basilisk there are many at leat 5 or 6 different types it’s formations unlike the Cockatrice have evolved over the years!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1.Cockerel-head of a rooster tale of a snake able to fly spits poisonous venom and can petrify with its gaze smaller than its cousin the Cockatrice who is larger in size!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2.Lizard- Four or more legs spits poisonous venom and can petrify with its gaze sometimes able to breath fire&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: size may differ&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3.Dragon- these are able to take flight spits poisonous venom and can petrify with its gaze!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4.Serpent-A very large snake much larger than the Cockatrice in both length height and width spits poisonous venom and can kill instantly with its gaze with direct eye contact but only petrifies with indirect contact)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note1:There is also a small winged type but is only the size of a normal snake I imagine it has the same abilities to spit poisonous venom and has a petrifing gaze!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note2: The vision of the Basilisk is not the only thing to grow in lethality however as it’s venom eventually came to possess such potency that it is able to kill by proxy simply touching something which it had come into contact with the venom can prove leathal thus traveling along a weapon poisoning the victim with indirect contact with the Serpent!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another main difference is the way it is born!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The basilisk is hatched by a cockerel from the egg of a serpent or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; toad.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The cockatrice is hatched from a cockerel's &quot;egg&quot; incubated by a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; serpent or toad.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17078" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5102" RevisionGUID="bb7e28d4-7f6d-468d-afdd-4a13f8b3642c" CreationDate="2018-09-10T13:44:35.110" UserId="5350" Comment="slight changes" Text="Obv Dawny33 has been a moron and hasn’t done any research on The Cockatrice &amp; Basilisk before posting and trying to answer your question correctly luckily I have &amp; obv yannis editing did not help so here hope this helps!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cockatrice &#xD;&#xA;—————&#xD;&#xA;Always depicted as a large rooster has the ability to fly spit poison venoms sometimes breath fire and has a petrifying gaze &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: The Cockatrice is much larger than the Basilisk in the Basilisk’s rooster formation!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Basilisk &#xD;&#xA;———-&#xD;&#xA;IT really all comes down to which type of Basilisk there are many at leat 5 or 6 different types it’s formations unlike the Cockatrice have evolved over the years!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1.Cockerel-head of a rooster tale of a snake able to fly spits poisonous venom and can petrify with its gaze smaller than its cousin the Cockatrice who is larger in size!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2.Lizard- Four or more legs spits poisonous venom and can petrify with its gaze sometimes able to breath fire&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: size may differ&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3.Dragon- these are able to take flight spits poisonous venom and can petrify with its gaze!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4.Serpent-A very large snake much larger than the Cockatrice in both length height and width spits poisonous venom and can kill instantly with its gaze with direct eye contact but only petrifies with indirect contact)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note1:There is also a small winged type but is only the size of a normal snake I imagine it has the same abilities to spit poisonous venom and has a petrifing gaze!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note2: The vision of the Basilisk is not the only thing to grow in lethality however as it’s venom eventually came to possess such potency that it is able to kill by proxy simply touching something which it had come into contact with the venom can prove leathal thus traveling along a weapon poisoning the victim with indirect contact with the Serpent!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another main difference is the way it is born!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The basilisk is hatched by a cockerel from the egg of a serpent or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; toad.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The cockatrice is hatched from a cockerel's &quot;egg&quot; incubated by a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; serpent or toad.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17079" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5102" RevisionGUID="7d920e21-c0f1-49d7-9db7-4f2f6e0957f0" CreationDate="2018-09-10T14:31:34.200" UserId="5" Comment="deleted 224 characters in body" Text="Cockatrice &#xD;&#xA;—————&#xD;&#xA;Always depicted as a large rooster has the ability to fly spit poison venoms sometimes breath fire and has a petrifying gaze &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: The Cockatrice is much larger than the Basilisk in the Basilisk’s rooster formation!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Basilisk &#xD;&#xA;———-&#xD;&#xA;IT really all comes down to which type of Basilisk there are many at leat 5 or 6 different types it’s formations unlike the Cockatrice have evolved over the years!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1.Cockerel-head of a rooster tale of a snake able to fly spits poisonous venom and can petrify with its gaze smaller than its cousin the Cockatrice who is larger in size!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2.Lizard- Four or more legs spits poisonous venom and can petrify with its gaze sometimes able to breath fire&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: size may differ&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3.Dragon- these are able to take flight spits poisonous venom and can petrify with its gaze!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4.Serpent-A very large snake much larger than the Cockatrice in both length height and width spits poisonous venom and can kill instantly with its gaze with direct eye contact but only petrifies with indirect contact)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note1:There is also a small winged type but is only the size of a normal snake I imagine it has the same abilities to spit poisonous venom and has a petrifing gaze!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note2: The vision of the Basilisk is not the only thing to grow in lethality however as it’s venom eventually came to possess such potency that it is able to kill by proxy simply touching something which it had come into contact with the venom can prove leathal thus traveling along a weapon poisoning the victim with indirect contact with the Serpent!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another main difference is the way it is born!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The basilisk is hatched by a cockerel from the egg of a serpent or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; toad.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The cockatrice is hatched from a cockerel's &quot;egg&quot; incubated by a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; serpent or toad.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17080" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5103" RevisionGUID="69b48672-01ae-4171-9e8b-b832dc962f80" CreationDate="2018-09-10T15:00:26.610" UserId="3989" Text="Socrates credits an Egyptian god, Theuth, with the invention of writing, if &amp;ldquo;credits&amp;rdquo; be the word (for the disadvantages of the technology are made to seem to outweigh any advantages) at [Plato *Phaedrus* 274c][1]&amp;ndash;275b. At the end of the passage, though, Phaedrus suggests that the myth is Socrates&amp;rsquo; own fabrication.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Plat.%20Phaedrus%20274c" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17082" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5104" RevisionGUID="a2b56ebb-6313-472c-b66d-45b5e5de0715" CreationDate="2018-09-10T15:35:12.673" UserId="5352" Text="Perhaps it was simply to trick the maidens. It is well known that Hera is infuriated by Zues's infidelity, and has a track record of taking out her wrath on the woman and even any children related to the affair.  Seeing as she couldn't punish Zues herself. She has gone all the way from permanent disfigurment (of various levels) to driving individuals to madness and even murder. She's even tricked various mortals to kill someone they love.&#xD;&#xA;Knowing Heras fury no matter how charming Zues was, I imagine that many maidens where scared off by fear of her retaliation. Therefore when Zues changed shapes to.... whatever the maidens would not nessisaryly know it was Zues and be less wary of hooking up with him." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17083" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5105" RevisionGUID="3ad9bd15-9592-405f-b3b9-783f517f521f" CreationDate="2018-09-10T19:45:19.053" UserId="5353" Text="I've heard of a story in greek mythology, but I am missing a lot of details. Can you help me recover the place where, supposedly, everything happened ?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A guy goes alone to a village to steal wine and gold. When the villagers find out, they chase him. He decides to flee by the sea, with a boat. And when the villagers get to the beach, someone giant arrives, and throws a rock on the villagers. The rock has stayed here since then.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This should have happened on the West coast of Greece." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17084" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5105" RevisionGUID="3ad9bd15-9592-405f-b3b9-783f517f521f" CreationDate="2018-09-10T19:45:19.053" UserId="5353" Text="A rock on a beach" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17085" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5105" RevisionGUID="3ad9bd15-9592-405f-b3b9-783f517f521f" CreationDate="2018-09-10T19:45:19.053" UserId="5353" Text="|greek|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17086" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5104" RevisionGUID="7bf40963-4c98-4bb8-97b1-747142e2f1f6" CreationDate="2018-09-11T05:16:59.460" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected spelling, fixed grammar &amp; improved formatting" Text="Perhaps it was simply to trick the maidens. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is well known that Hera is infuriated by Zeus's infidelity, and has a track record of taking out her wrath on the woman and even any children related to the affair, since she couldn't punish Zeus himself. She has gone all the way from permanent disfigurement (of various levels) to driving individuals to madness, and even murder. She's even tricked various mortals to kill someone they love.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Knowing Hera's fury, no matter how charming Zeus was, I imagine that many maidens were scared off by fear of her retaliation. Therefore when Zeus changed shapes to... whatever the maidens would not necessarily know was Zeus and be less wary of hooking up with him." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17087" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5106" RevisionGUID="00c12953-5697-4788-9ef3-da72442dec7a" CreationDate="2018-09-11T14:29:35.833" UserId="5356" Text="If I remember correctly **Vespersian**, the Roman emperor, led hundreds of soldiers into the sea to fight Neptune" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17088" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5107" RevisionGUID="d8461366-f910-4967-b422-d64066db766d" CreationDate="2018-09-11T15:04:23.880" UserId="5356" Text="I would assume yes, they bleed.&#xA;Especially if you consider that Pharaohs were considered to be not only representatives but hosts and therefore gods themselves.&#xA;Pharaohs were often associated with Horus. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17089" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5108" RevisionGUID="af67c582-dfda-41e4-b432-14093a9e2d27" CreationDate="2018-09-12T14:50:41.493" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17090" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5108" RevisionGUID="af67c582-dfda-41e4-b432-14093a9e2d27" CreationDate="2018-09-12T14:50:41.493" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17091" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5109" RevisionGUID="f4a1ff74-fd0a-4ea0-b32e-ff0fc404fd3e" CreationDate="2018-09-12T14:50:41.493" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17092" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5109" RevisionGUID="f4a1ff74-fd0a-4ea0-b32e-ff0fc404fd3e" CreationDate="2018-09-12T14:50:41.493" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17093" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5110" RevisionGUID="4e468003-8bd4-41d8-876d-d0d5608a0276" CreationDate="2018-09-12T15:00:06.583" UserId="5247" Text="The Irish pseudo-histories forming the various Leabrad Gabála Érenn (&quot;The Books of the Taking of Ireland&quot;), place the arrival of what are thought to be a later development on pre-Christian deities, the Tuatha Dé before the historical inhabitants of Ireland the Gaels. This necessarily involves antagonistic relationships, outright conflict, and peace treaties.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; §70. [The first night afterwards [when] Íth went into Ireland after Ins arrival at Loch Sailech], demons slew one of his followers. He is the first who was slain in Ireland there, of the progeny of the Sons of Míl. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So it was to avenge Íth that the sons of Míl [to wit, the Gáedil] came--for his [Íth's] body was carried to Spain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*The 'cause' for the Gaels to come to Ireland.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; §76. The Sons of Míl fought the battle of Life; there were monsters in shapes of giants which the Túatha Dé Danann had summoned to themselves by druidry. The Sons of Míl (Éber, Érimón and Ír), fought the battle valiantly. The horse (gabar) of Érimón fell there, unde Gabar Life rwminatur. They came thereafter till they were in the mountain over against [Loch] Dergderc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*The battle of Life against the Túatha Dé Danann.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; §79. They had colloquy with Ériu in Uisnech. She said unto them: Warriors, said she, welcome to you. Long have soothsayers had [knowledge of] your coming. Yours shall be this island for ever; and to the east of the world there shall not be a better island. No race shall there be, more numerous than yours. Good is that, said Amorgen; good is the prophecy. Not right were it to thank her, said Éber Donn, eldest of the sons of Míl; thank our gods and our own might.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Éber Donn antagonises Ériu.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There was a wondrous king over the Tuatha Dé in Ireland, Dagán by name. Great was his power, even over the sons of Mil after they had seized the land. For the Tuatha Dé; blighted the grain and the milk of the sons of Mil until they made a treaty with the Dagda. Thereafter they preserved their grain and their milk for them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*A peace treaty of sorts*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sources:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. [Lebor Gabala Erenn (LL Edition)][1]&#xD;&#xA; 2. [The Taking of the Sid (LL Edition)][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/leborgabala.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://sejh.pagesperso-orange.fr/keltia/version-en/taking-sid.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17094" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5111" RevisionGUID="b345ba63-1292-4dee-923e-3b8a6213d180" CreationDate="2018-09-12T18:45:18.590" UserId="5013" Text="In Märchen (aka &quot;Fairy Tales&quot;), the Grimms “Kinder und Hausmärchen” (Children’s and Household Tales) include a tale on how God created all animals and selected the wolves to be his hounds (KHM 1857 #148, &quot;Des Herrn und des Teufels Gethier&quot; (The Lord's and the Devil's Creatures). Since &#xD;&#xA;God forgot to create the goat, the the devil also wanted to create and made the goat with fine long tails. When they went to pasture, they usually got their tails stuck in the brambles. The Devil had to go in and with much effort free them. This angered the devil and he bit their tails off, as is still to be seen today in their stumpy tails.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story continues....&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[https://khm.li/Des-Herrn-und-des-Teufels-Gethier][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[https://sites.duke.edu/adhoc_fairytalespublic/fairy-tales-by-khm-number/khm-141-160/148-the-lords-animals-and-the-devils/][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;The Bolte Anmerkungen state that “An age old reason, says W. Grimm breaks everywhere through this fable; it belongs, as out of Dänhardts rich Nachweisen in the Natursagen 1, 127 – 205 belongs, to the large group of dual creation tellings. Out of &#xD;&#xA;envy the Devil copies Gods creations, without being able to achieve it; he creates a wolf, a goat, a horse, but only enlivens them  through the word of God; instead on the human he creates an ape, instead of the bee a wasp, instead of the nut an acorn; or he is cheated in such a contest.”&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Grimm text is from Hans Sachs 1556 Schwank “[Der dewffel hat die gais geschaffen, hat in dewffel-augen eingeseczt”][3] – “The devil had created the goat(s), had set devils eyes in.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://khm.li/Des-Herrn-und-des-Teufels-Gethier&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://sites.duke.edu/adhoc_fairytalespublic/fairy-tales-by-khm-number/khm-141-160/148-the-lords-animals-and-the-devils/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://books.google.com/books?id=5hBVAAAAcAAJ&amp;lpg=PA143&amp;ots=QqVFwG-n-L&amp;dq=Der%20teufel%20hat%20die%20gai%C3%9F%20erschaffen%2C&amp;pg=PA143#v=onepage&amp;q=Der%20teufel%20hat%20die%20g&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17095" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5110" RevisionGUID="b82a6332-00fb-4bbc-8d86-9cc36249b2a4" CreationDate="2018-09-13T09:13:36.380" UserId="5247" Comment="added 19 characters in body" Text="The Irish pseudo-histories forming the various Leabrad Gabála Érenn (&quot;The Books of the Taking of Ireland&quot;), place the arrival of what are thought to be a later development on pre-Christian deities, the Tuatha Dé (&quot;The God Tribes&quot;) before the historical inhabitants of Ireland the Gaels. This necessarily involves antagonistic relationships, outright conflict, and peace treaties.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; §70. [The first night afterwards [when] Íth went into Ireland after Ins arrival at Loch Sailech], demons slew one of his followers. He is the first who was slain in Ireland there, of the progeny of the Sons of Míl. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So it was to avenge Íth that the sons of Míl [to wit, the Gáedil] came--for his [Íth's] body was carried to Spain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*The 'cause' for the Gaels to come to Ireland.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; §76. The Sons of Míl fought the battle of Life; there were monsters in shapes of giants which the Túatha Dé Danann had summoned to themselves by druidry. The Sons of Míl (Éber, Érimón and Ír), fought the battle valiantly. The horse (gabar) of Érimón fell there, unde Gabar Life rwminatur. They came thereafter till they were in the mountain over against [Loch] Dergderc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*The battle of Life against the Túatha Dé Danann.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; §79. They had colloquy with Ériu in Uisnech. She said unto them: Warriors, said she, welcome to you. Long have soothsayers had [knowledge of] your coming. Yours shall be this island for ever; and to the east of the world there shall not be a better island. No race shall there be, more numerous than yours. Good is that, said Amorgen; good is the prophecy. Not right were it to thank her, said Éber Donn, eldest of the sons of Míl; thank our gods and our own might.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Éber Donn antagonises Ériu.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There was a wondrous king over the Tuatha Dé in Ireland, Dagán by name. Great was his power, even over the sons of Mil after they had seized the land. For the Tuatha Dé; blighted the grain and the milk of the sons of Mil until they made a treaty with the Dagda. Thereafter they preserved their grain and their milk for them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*A peace treaty of sorts*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sources:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. [Lebor Gabala Erenn (LL Edition)][1]&#xD;&#xA; 2. [The Taking of the Sid (LL Edition)][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/leborgabala.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://sejh.pagesperso-orange.fr/keltia/version-en/taking-sid.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17096" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5109" RevisionGUID="4d8b58cc-cfdf-4ab7-9454-b9b3fd7fa68c" CreationDate="2018-09-13T12:12:11.347" UserId="53" Comment="added 62 characters in body" Text="For questions regarding myths relating to or including plants." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17097" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5109" RevisionGUID="4d8b58cc-cfdf-4ab7-9454-b9b3fd7fa68c" CreationDate="2018-09-13T12:12:11.347" Comment="Proposed by 53 approved by 2774, 108 edit id of 1676" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17098" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5103" RevisionGUID="be3bf314-67cc-41d6-98c7-ffd2998de2d5" CreationDate="2018-09-14T15:02:44.333" UserId="3989" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="Socrates credits an Egyptian god, Theuth, with the invention of writing, if &amp;ldquo;credits&amp;rdquo; be the word (for the disadvantages of the technology are made to seem to outweigh any advantages), at [Plato *Phaedrus* 274c][1]&amp;ndash;275b. At the end of the passage, though, Phaedrus suggests that the myth is Socrates&amp;rsquo; own fabrication.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Plat.%20Phaedrus%20274c" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17099" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3531" RevisionGUID="d25eae05-81f0-49d5-81d1-b11e679ff894" CreationDate="2018-09-15T10:01:04.723" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="17100" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5112" RevisionGUID="d520a05c-6e11-4324-8b1b-e5a2a5cd8149" CreationDate="2018-09-15T23:03:48.883" UserId="5294" Text="I know that there’s a wide verity of zombies. Now my question is what are the versions of them &amp; how are they stopped from attacking the living? For future reference I know that salt is one way of stopping zombies, I would like to know if there’s alternative ways to do so." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17101" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5112" RevisionGUID="d520a05c-6e11-4324-8b1b-e5a2a5cd8149" CreationDate="2018-09-15T23:03:48.883" UserId="5294" Text="Zombies and stopping them?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17102" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5112" RevisionGUID="d520a05c-6e11-4324-8b1b-e5a2a5cd8149" CreationDate="2018-09-15T23:03:48.883" UserId="5294" Text="|mythical-creatures|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17106" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5112" RevisionGUID="70fdc470-f6bb-4dab-8841-ec54910f4bbe" CreationDate="2018-09-17T13:05:11.823" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved  spelling." Text="I know that there’s a wide variety of zombies. Now my question is what are the versions of them &amp; how are they stopped from attacking the living? For future reference I know that salt is one way of stopping zombies, I would like to know if there’s alternative ways to do so." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17107" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5112" RevisionGUID="210c3f6e-0ca4-411c-9cdd-e73366149da5" CreationDate="2018-09-17T20:26:55.390" UserId="5294" Comment="added 76 characters in body" Text="I know that there’s a wide variety of zombies. Now my question is what are the versions of them &amp; how are they stopped from attacking the living? Zombies are (now these days) concedered mindless undead with flesh on them. For future reference I know that salt is one way of stopping zombies, I would like to know if there’s alternative ways to do so." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17109" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5115" RevisionGUID="f9b7dd69-2e89-40d3-b4aa-efcaee9b0961" CreationDate="2018-09-18T07:02:44.003" UserId="5017" Text="In the book *[Tales of Ancient Egypt][1]* by [Roger Lancelyn Green][2] in the tale called &quot;Horus the Avenger&quot;, Set transforms into a hippopotamus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And there on the island stood Set himself in the form of a gigantic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; red hippopotamus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The song of praise which was sung to recall Set's defeat says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eat the flesh of the vanquished, drink the blood of the red&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hippopotamus, burn his bones with fire!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, Set, one of the Egyptian gods, apparently did bleed. However, one could argue that this was only because he was in the form of an animal at the time. Indeed, in the entire rest of the book no other gods bleed.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=gyScOqkJvfUC&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;dq=tales%20of%20ancient%20egypt&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiFqey8-sPdAhXJ0FMKHWXJA20Q6AEILzAB#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Lancelyn_Green" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17112" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5117" RevisionGUID="9586319a-c66e-4a13-ae9f-e632c2552872" CreationDate="2018-09-19T02:53:22.823" UserId="3373" Text="&#xD;&#xA;Sekhmet as the Bull Queen at the times of Seti's Reign&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;   The Bull was an animal signifying the Sun, and the Spring Equinox. &#xD;&#xA;It is a wild speculation that whenever Sekhmet-stars ( inasmuch as Sirius is Isis, Io, Sothis, Dog-Star) was rising before Ra (Heliacal Rising) in the Spring morning, it signified the given ruler-ship. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You may find some clues in the Dendera Zodiac, perhaps Sekhmet was a presiding Goddess at the time of Seti's reign according to the Egyptian calendar? Seti I lived approximately 1294 BC to 1279 BC. I'm giving clues, not answers, it is way beyond my competence. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Darnell, John Coleman. &quot;The Apotropaic Goddess in the Eye.&quot; Studien&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zur Altägyptischen Kultur 24 (1997): 35-48.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; http://www.jstor.org/stable/25152728.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/12cBi.gif" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17113" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5117" RevisionGUID="f495adee-e75d-42b6-bd5a-9f9369aad8bc" CreationDate="2018-09-19T03:15:59.020" UserId="3373" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body" Text="Sekhmet as the Bull Queen at the times of Seti's Reign&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;   The Bull was an animal signifying the Sun and the Spring Equinox. &#xD;&#xA;It is a wild speculation that whenever Sekhmet-star ( inasmuch as Sirius is Isis, Io, Sothis, Dog-Star) was rising before Ra (Heliacal Rising) in the Spring morning, it signified the given ruler-ship. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You may find some clues in the Dendera Zodiac, perhaps Sekhmet was a presiding Goddess at the time of Seti's reign according to the Egyptian calendar? Seti I lived approximately 1294 BC to 1279 BC. I'm giving clues, not answers, it is way beyond my competence. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Darnell, John Coleman. &quot;The Apotropaic Goddess in the Eye.&quot; Studien&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zur Altägyptischen Kultur 24 (1997): 35-48.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; http://www.jstor.org/stable/25152728.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/12cBi.gif" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17114" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5117" RevisionGUID="5092652d-56f0-4177-8466-e8c9c459e26b" CreationDate="2018-09-20T00:25:22.680" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved fomatting." Text="Sekhmet as the Bull Queen at the times of Seti's Reign&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Bull was an animal signifying the Sun and the Spring Equinox. &#xD;&#xA;It is a wild speculation that whenever Sekhmet-star ( inasmuch as Sirius is Isis, Io, Sothis, Dog-Star) was rising before Ra (Heliacal Rising) in the Spring morning, it signified the given ruler-ship. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You may find some clues in the Dendera Zodiac, perhaps Sekhmet was a presiding Goddess at the time of Seti's reign according to the Egyptian calendar? Seti I lived approximately 1294 BC to 1279 BC. I'm giving clues, not answers, it is way beyond my competence. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Darnell, John Coleman. &quot;[The Apotropaic Goddess in the Eye][2].&quot; Studien&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zur Altägyptischen Kultur 24 (1997): 35-48.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/12cBi.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.jstor.org/stable/25152728?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17115" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5118" RevisionGUID="6c443103-bfe1-44ea-8320-a5bc9e78e7c6" CreationDate="2018-09-20T10:47:05.343" UserId="742" Text="Is Phoebus an alternate name for Apollo or is a description of Apollo?&#xD;&#xA;In other words, I want to know if Phoebus is a name or simply a common noun that means &quot;light&quot; or &quot;brightness&quot;. There was also a Greek Titaness named Phoebe who was also related to &quot;light&quot; in some way or another, and her name is similar to Phoebus. That would suggests that Phoebus or Phoebe are not really proper names, but words that refer to &quot;light&quot;." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17116" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5118" RevisionGUID="6c443103-bfe1-44ea-8320-a5bc9e78e7c6" CreationDate="2018-09-20T10:47:05.343" UserId="742" Text="Is Phoebus an alternate name for Apollo or is a description of Apollo?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17117" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5118" RevisionGUID="6c443103-bfe1-44ea-8320-a5bc9e78e7c6" CreationDate="2018-09-20T10:47:05.343" UserId="742" Text="|greek|titans|names|linguistics|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17122" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5120" RevisionGUID="ed6d75ce-6808-4817-bfe2-a0ec76aa0ca8" CreationDate="2018-09-21T09:01:06.620" UserId="2682" Text="It is used in both these ways. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Among the Ancient Greeks and Romans, just as in almost any other culture or language in the world, especially in the neighbourhood of the Mediterranean Basin, if a descriptive title or nickname gets enough usage, not surprisingly, it coagulates into something that, for all intents and purposes, is &quot;a proper name.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;William Smith's 1888 Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology says that Phoebus &quot;occurs both as an epithet and a name of Apollo, in his capacity of god of the sun&quot;, citing passages from the Greek poet Homer and the Roman authors Virgil, Horace and Macrobius for examples.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is labelled as *a proper noun* on [Wiktionary](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Phoebus) as well as in *An Intermediate Greek–English Lexicon* (by Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, Henry Stuart Jones &amp; Roderick McKenzie). In Homer, the deity commonly appears as Φοῖβος Ἀπόλλων, &quot;Phoebus Apollo,&quot; but also simply as Φοῖβος, &quot;Phoebus&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Due to the later conflation of Apollo with the Titan god Helios, &quot;Sun,&quot; who is the original and more unambiguously direct personification of the sun, Helios is also sometimes referred to as Phoebus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Titaness Phoebe was Apollo's grandmother (being the mother of his mother Leto). According to Line 8 of the play *Eumenides*, by Aeschylus, Apollo inherited the name Phoebus from this grandmother of his. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Phoebe's case her name is undoubtedly a proper noun. She doesn't go by any other name; it is certainly more than a mere common descriptor noun, even though, ultimately, this Titaness may simply be a personification of radiance. (Indeed her only role in the mythology is as an ancestral figure to a few other deities more important than herself.)  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17126" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5122" RevisionGUID="0abc8a5c-66b0-4b71-9af3-aea03313ece9" CreationDate="2018-09-23T08:35:00.327" UserId="2682" Text="The story occurs in only two ancient works: first in Hesiod's *Theogony*, where just a few tantalising details are offered towards your Question, and then only about 800 years after that, in Apollodorus' *Library*, wherein Hesiod's little information is further truncated.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only thing that the *Library* says about the potential son of Zeus and Metis (in 1.3.6) is that he &quot;would gain the lordship of the sky&quot;, or, as James George Frazer translates it, &quot;should be the lord of heaven&quot;, which must mean he would be some kind of sky-god, like Zeus and Ouranos [Uranus] before him, and that, like these predecessors of his, he would become the supreme deity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod's first mention of him indicates that he would have something in common with his sister, because their mother's destiny was to give birth to &quot;very wise children,&quot; first Athena and then him. Or in other words, going by Daryl Hine's translation, &quot;All too intelligent children were destined to come out of Metis&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Theogony* then goes on to say that this son would be &quot;of overbearing spirit&quot;, according to Hugh Gerard Evelyn-White's 1920 translation. In Daryl Hine's 2005 translation, he would be &quot;of a reckless character, larger than life&quot;. And in the surviving manuscripts of Hesiod, that's apparently all there is to it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;... Or it *would* be if Evelyn-White hadn't used the work of Rudolf Peppmüller to restore a significant chunk of the next section of the *Theogony*. Evelyn-White seems to be saying (in a footnote on p. 146 of his translation) that this segment, missing from main ancient text, Peppmüller was able to reconstruct from a quote that the physician Galen (100s AD) made of a quote by the philosopher Chrysippus (200s BC).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is within this (salvaged) lacuna that the detailed story is narrated regarding Athena's birth from Zeus's head. It is also where we get the only other detail mentioned about Athena's unborn younger brother. Zeus swallowed Metis, it says,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for fear that she might bring forth something stronger than his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thunderbolt&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's not really much to go on there, but the particular phrasing of how this statement is translated could point us in a slightly more interesting direction. In the online Encyclopedia article on Metis, on The Theoi Project website, we are told that Zeus devoured his wife&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for fear that she might bring forth a thunderbolt stronger than his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; own&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is ambiguous enough to mean that the son would be born bearing a thunderbolt as his weapon, in similarity to how his sister was born fully armed (and armoured), or even more dramatically, that he himself would *be* a thunderbolt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is likely far-fetched but not completely unprecedented. (Note the strange example in Pindar, who says that gold itself [personified as a god named Khrysos, &quot;Gold&quot;] was a son of Zeus.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Arthur Bernard Cook's work *Zeus: A Study in Ancient Religion* displays a drawing [on p. 1156 of Vol. 3: *Zeus, God of the Dark Sky (Earthquakes, Clouds, Wind, Dew, Rain, Meteorites)*] of this *drakhma* from Olympia:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![SNGCop_426][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here Cook says that Charles Theodore Seltman, who had dealt with this coin, described the winged thunderbolt which appears on the right-hand side of the image above as bearing a handle which takes &quot;the shape of a small human head, perhaps Keraunos.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Keraunos*, &quot;Thunderbolt,&quot; which contains both thunder and lightning, was also a title of Zeus, in his capacity as the god of these weather phenomena. Places and persons that had been struck by lightning became sacred, as objects which had been touched by Zeus himself, as though this celestial electricity was itself a form of the god or merely an extension of him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A better illustration of all of this appears literally in a Roman-era mosaic which I once saw some years back but sadly have not been able to recall its exact reference. (Therefore I am simply unable to verify the current paragraph beyond what it claims.) It may be a scene depicting the death of Helios' son Phaethon, who was zapped out of the sky by Zeus. At any rate, in the artwork, both Zeus himself as well as his thunderbolt are depicted. Zeus has just launched his weapon, which is portrayed as a young, winged man named Keraunos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If Metis's unborn son was going to be the personification of thunder and lightning, perhaps it was along these lines that he was envisioned. At any rate, that sliver of an idea from the recovered lines of the *Theogony* suggest that this son would have been a thunder-god as well. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And if the imagery employed to depict thunderbolts is something further to go on (and assuming that it is correct to think of this son as a thunderbolt avatar), then in addition to being &quot;wise&quot; and &quot;overbearing&quot;, he might have had wings and been composed partly of flames. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Seltman_277a][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Here's another one of Seltman's coins upon which the thunderbolt (image right) appears as much more of a fiery icon.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/I5cnN.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/4o8cc.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17127" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5122" RevisionGUID="ad402854-f520-482b-88da-775bb453fb83" CreationDate="2018-09-23T21:20:13.777" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; added some info" Text="The story occurs in only two ancient writings: first in Hesiod's *Theogony*, where just a few tantalising details are offered towards your Question, and then only about 800 years after that, in Apollodorus' *Library*, wherein Hesiod's scant information is further truncated.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only thing that the *Library* says about the potential son of Zeus and Metis (in 1.3.6) is that he &quot;would gain the lordship of the sky&quot;, or, as James George Frazer translates it, he &quot;should be the lord of heaven&quot;, which must mean that he would be some kind of sky-god, like Zeus and Ouranos [Uranus] before him, and that, like these predecessors of his, he would become the supreme deity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod's first mention of him indicates that he would have something in common with his sister, because their mother's destiny was to give birth to &quot;very wise children,&quot; first Athena and then him. Or in other words, going by Daryl Hine's 2005 translation, &quot;All too intelligent children were destined to come out of Metis&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Theogony* then goes on to say that this son would be &quot;of overbearing spirit&quot;, according to Hugh Gerard Evelyn-White's 1920 translation. In Hine's translation, he would be &quot;of a reckless character, larger than life&quot;. And in the surviving manuscripts of Hesiod, that's apparently all there is to it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;... Or it *would* be if Evelyn-White hadn't used the work of Rudolf Peppmüller to restore a significant chunk of the next section of the *Theogony* (appearing in between Lines 929 &amp; 930 in Evelyn-White's edition of the Greek). Evelyn-White seems to be saying (in a footnote on p. 146 of his translation) that this segment, missing from the main ancient text, Peppmüller was able to reconstruct from a quote that the physician Galen (100s AD) made of a quote by the philosopher Chrysippus (200s BC).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is within this (salvaged) lacuna that the detailed story is narrated regarding Athena's birth from Zeus's head. It is also where we get the only other detail mentioned about Athena's unborn younger brother. Zeus swallowed Metis, it says,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for fear that she might bring forth something stronger than his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thunderbolt&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That is really not much to go on, but the particular phrasing of how this statement is translated could point us in a slightly more interesting direction. In the online Encyclopedia article on Metis, on The Theoi Project website, we are told that Zeus devoured his wife&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for fear that she might bring forth a thunderbolt stronger than his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; own&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is ambiguous enough to mean that the son would be born bearing a thunderbolt as his weapon, in similarity to how his sister was born fully armed (and armoured), or even more dramatically, that he himself would *be* a thunderbolt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is likely far-fetched but not completely unprecedented. (Note the strange example in Pindar, who says that gold itself [personified as a god named Khrysos, &quot;Gold&quot;] was a son of Zeus.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Arthur Bernard Cook's work *Zeus: A Study in Ancient Religion* displays a drawing [on p. 1156 of Vol. 3: *Zeus, God of the Dark Sky (Earthquakes, Clouds, Wind, Dew, Rain, Meteorites)*] of this *drakhma* from Olympia:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![SNGCop_426][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here Cook says that Charles Theodore Seltman, who had dealt with this coin, described the winged thunderbolt which appears on the right-hand side of the image above as bearing a handle which takes &quot;the shape of a small human head, perhaps Keraunos.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Keraunos*, &quot;Thunderbolt,&quot; which contains both thunder and lightning, was the divine king's signature armament as well as it was a title of Zeus in his capacity as the god of these weather phenomena. Places and persons that had been struck by lightning became sacred, as objects which had been touched by Zeus himself, as though this celestial electricity was itself a form of the god or merely an extension of him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A better illustration of all of this appears literally in a Roman-era mosaic which I once saw some years back but sadly have not been able to recall its exact reference. (Therefore I am simply unable to verify the current paragraph beyond what it claims.) It may be a scene depicting the death of Helios' son Phaethon, who was zapped out of the sky by Zeus. At any rate, in the artwork, both Zeus himself as well as his thunderbolt are depicted. Zeus has just launched his weapon, which is portrayed as a young, winged man named Keraunos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If Metis's unborn son was going to be the personification of thunder and lightning, perhaps it was along these lines that he was envisioned. At any rate, that sliver of an idea from the recovered lines of the *Theogony* suggests that this son would have been a thunder-god as well. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And if the imagery employed to depict thunderbolts is something further to go on (and assuming that it is correct to think of this son as a thunderbolt avatar), then in addition to being &quot;very wise&quot; and &quot;overbearing&quot;, he might have had wings and been composed partly of flames. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Seltman_277a][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Here's another one of Seltman's coins upon which the thunderbolt (image right) appears as much more of a fiery icon.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/I5cnN.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/4o8cc.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17128" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5123" RevisionGUID="4930501b-c25a-4ab1-9263-3f5e9b38b4d5" CreationDate="2018-09-23T22:53:40.257" UserId="2682" Text="The oldest written accounts are ambiguous on this point, so it is somewhat difficult to ascertain whether these two are not, in fact, merely aspects of the same tradition rather than two completely distinct, contradictory ones.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod, in his *Theogony* (c. 700 BC), simply says that Dionysus married Ariadne, with no mention at all of Theseus. The one source which is either as old as or even older than Hesiod is Homer's *Odyssey*, which contains a puzzlingly different rendition of the relationship between the wine-god and the Cretan princess. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here, so we are told, Theseus took Ariadne from Crete with the intention of conveying her to Athens, &quot;yet he had no joy of her, since, before&quot; they could, apparently, consummate their union, Artemis killed Ariadne on Dia Island, seemingly at the instigation of Dionysus. Unlike Hesiod's Ariadne, who becomes &quot;deathless and unageing,&quot; in the *Odyssey*, Ariadne is languishing in dank gloominess, in the land of the dead, long enough after her death for Odysseus to encounter her there when he adventures through the netherworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we lay all that aside, though, and go only straight for clear and explicit information, the first time we encounter one of the versions of the story that you have specified is in Book 4 of Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautica* in the 200s BC. In it, Dionysus marries&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the fair young Ariadne, whom Theseus carried off from Cnossus and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; abandoned on the isle of Dia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The other version first occurs a couple of centuries later, in the *Bibliotheca Historica* of Diodorus Siculus. This plainly says that Dionysus snatched Ariadne &quot;away from Theseus and kept her as his lawful wife, loving her exceedingly.&quot; Book 5 is even blunter, having Dionysus visit Theseus in a dream &quot;threatening him if he would not forsake Ariadne&quot; so that Dionysus might have his way with her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Based on this evidence then, the first version to be written is the one in which Theseus leaves Ariadne behind without divine intervention.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(I would note, speculatively speaking, however, that Apollonius could actually mean that Theseus' abandonment of Ariadne had been demanded of him but that this writer doesn't mention it because his original reader is already familiar with this detail and takes it for granted.) " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17130" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5124" RevisionGUID="3132ba27-c701-4f1a-b606-2b5d90c604d7" CreationDate="2018-09-24T20:38:46.697" UserId="5386" Text="As far as if they do bleed, yes they do:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In a passage of the Book of the Dead, Ra cuts himself, and his blood transforms into two intellectual personifications: Hu, or authority, and Sia, or mind.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; -[Ra, As creator][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is highly unlikely that they bled an ichor equivalent otherwise we would've most likely read about it. But as far as bleeding a liquid, in this case blood goes, yes they do, or at least Ra does.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra#As_creator" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17131" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5125" RevisionGUID="414700e5-5235-4c8d-b322-02c8c3ed1b64" CreationDate="2018-09-24T21:10:32.840" UserId="57" Text="From Wikipedia: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The sanctuary of Apollo Maleatas (Greek: Ἀπόλλων Μαλεάτας) is located on a low hill on Mount Kynortion, east of the sanctuary of Asklepios at Epidaurus. At the peak of the hill was a small Early Helladic settlement, which was never built on in later periods. At the beginning of the Late Bronze Age, an open-air altar was used where animals were sacrificed and votives deposited in the ash. Dedications include votive bronze double axes, bronze swords, and clay animal figurines. There is evidence for cult activity in the Geometric period.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Wikipedia contributors. (2017, August 26). Apollo Maleatas. In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 20:57, September 24, 2018, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Apollo_Maleatas&amp;oldid=797380156&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately, the article is very thin on details. What does Maleatas mean, and how did Apollo acquire the epithet? What was the god's connection to the Theatre at Epidaurus?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17132" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5125" RevisionGUID="414700e5-5235-4c8d-b322-02c8c3ed1b64" CreationDate="2018-09-24T21:10:32.840" UserId="57" Text="What do we know about Apollo Maleatas?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17133" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5125" RevisionGUID="414700e5-5235-4c8d-b322-02c8c3ed1b64" CreationDate="2018-09-24T21:10:32.840" UserId="57" Text="|greek|apollo|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17134" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="3002" RevisionGUID="e779ea17-7678-48d8-a584-f7727e436f0d" CreationDate="2018-09-24T21:12:41.333" UserId="57" Comment="73" />
  <row Id="17135" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5122" RevisionGUID="15e6ecb3-cc1b-41f9-bf52-22b067a68aa3" CreationDate="2018-09-24T23:08:37.883" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="The story occurs in only two ancient writings: first in Hesiod's *Theogony*, where just a few tantalising details are offered towards your Question, and then only about 800 years after that, in Apollodorus' *Library*, wherein Hesiod's scant information is further truncated.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only thing that the *Library* says about the potential son of Zeus and Metis (in 1.3.6) is that he &quot;would gain the lordship of the sky&quot;, or, as James George Frazer translates it, he &quot;should be the lord of heaven&quot;, which must mean that he would be some kind of sky-god, like Zeus and Ouranos [Uranus] before him, and that, like these predecessors of his, he would become the supreme deity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod's first mention of him indicates that he would have something in common with his sister, because their mother's destiny was to give birth to &quot;very wise children,&quot; first Athena and then him. Or in other words, going by Daryl Hine's 2005 translation, &quot;All too intelligent children were destined to come out of Metis&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Theogony* then goes on to say that this son would be &quot;of overbearing spirit&quot;, according to Hugh Gerard Evelyn-White's 1920 translation. In Hine's translation, he would be &quot;of a reckless character, larger than life&quot;. And in the surviving manuscripts of Hesiod, that's apparently all there is to it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;... Or it *would* be if Evelyn-White hadn't used the work of Rudolf Peppmüller to restore a significant chunk of the next section of the *Theogony* (appearing in between Lines 929 &amp; 930 in Evelyn-White's edition of the Greek). Evelyn-White seems to be saying (in a footnote on p. 146 of his translation) that this segment, missing from the main ancient text, Peppmüller was able to reconstruct from a quote that the physician Galen (100s AD) made of a quote by the philosopher Chrysippus (200s BC).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is within this (salvaged) lacuna that the detailed story is narrated regarding Athena's birth from Zeus's head. It is also where we get the only other detail mentioned about Athena's unborn younger brother. Zeus swallowed Metis, it says,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for fear that she might bring forth something stronger than his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thunderbolt&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That is really not much to go on, but the particular phrasing of how this statement is translated could point us in a slightly more interesting direction. In the online Encyclopedia article on Metis, on The Theoi Project website, we are told that Zeus devoured his wife&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for fear that she might bring forth a thunderbolt stronger than his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; own&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is ambiguous enough to mean that the son would be born bearing a thunderbolt as his weapon, in similarity to how his sister was born fully armed (and armoured), or, even more dramatically, that he himself would *be* a thunderbolt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is likely far-fetched but not completely unprecedented. (Note the strange example in Pindar, who says that gold itself [personified as a god named Khrysos, &quot;Gold&quot;] was a son of Zeus.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Arthur Bernard Cook's work *Zeus: A Study in Ancient Religion* displays a drawing [on p. 1156 of Vol. 3: *Zeus, God of the Dark Sky (Earthquakes, Clouds, Wind, Dew, Rain, Meteorites)*] of this *drakhma* from Olympia:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![SNGCop_426][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here Cook says that Charles Theodore Seltman, who had dealt with this coin, described the winged thunderbolt which appears on the right-hand side of the image above as bearing a handle which takes &quot;the shape of a small human head, perhaps Keraunos.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Keraunos*, &quot;Thunderbolt,&quot; which contains both thunder and lightning, was the divine king's signature armament as well as it was a title of Zeus in his capacity as the god of these weather phenomena. Places and persons that had been struck by lightning became sacred, as objects which had been touched by Zeus himself, as though this celestial electricity was itself a form of the god or merely an extension of him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A better illustration of all of this appears literally in a Roman-era mosaic which I once saw some years back but sadly have not been able to recall its exact reference. (Therefore I am simply unable to verify the current paragraph beyond what it claims.) It may be a scene depicting the death of Helios' son Phaethon, who was zapped out of the sky by Zeus. At any rate, in the artwork, both Zeus himself and his thunderbolt are depicted. Zeus has just launched his weapon, which is portrayed as a young winged man named Keraunos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If Metis's unborn son was going to be the personification of thunder and lightning, perhaps it was along these lines that he was envisioned. At any rate, that sliver of an idea from the recovered lines of the *Theogony* suggests that this son would have been a thunder-god as well. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And if the imagery employed to depict thunderbolts is something further to go on (and assuming that it is correct to think of this son as a thunderbolt avatar), then in addition to being &quot;very wise&quot; and &quot;overbearing&quot;, he might have had wings and been composed partly of flames. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Seltman_277a][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Here's another one of Seltman's coins upon which the thunderbolt (image right) appears as much more of a fiery icon.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/I5cnN.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/4o8cc.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17136" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5126" RevisionGUID="7edf26ae-138a-4b96-a39f-8cb4a4a16e67" CreationDate="2018-09-25T09:36:53.923" UserId="2682" Text="**From the Name of a Place**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In William Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Mythology and Biography the name is spelled *Maleates* (Μαλεάτης), whose article entry goes on to tell us that it is &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a surname of Apollo, derived from cape Malea, in the south of Laconia.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He had sanctuaries under this name at Sparta and on mount Cynortium.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This article from the Dictionary references a couple of passages mentioning the deity in Pausanias' *Description of Greece*. In 3.12.8, which does indeed render the name as *Μαλεάτης*, we are told that&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Lakedaimonians have an altar of Apollon Akritas, and a sanctuary,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; surnamed Gasepton, of Ge. Above it is set up Apollon Maleates.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The cape referred to in the Dictionary is called *Cape Maleas* on Wikipedia, which it derives from Ακρωτήριον Μαλέας (*Akrotêrion Maléas*), &quot;a peninsula and cape in the southeast of the Peloponnese in Greece.&quot; The Wikipedia article adds that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;It separates the Laconian Gulf in the west from the Aegean Sea in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the east. It is the second most southerly point of mainland Greece&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (after Cape Matapan) and once featured one of the largest light-houses&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in the Mediterranean. The seas around the cape are notoriously&#xD;&#xA;&gt; treacherous and difficult to navigate, featuring variable weather and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; occasionally very powerful storms.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Cape Maleas Lighthouse GoogleEarth2][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;In the *Odyssey* (Book 9), it is while he sails westwards trying to round this cape, close to the final leg of his voyage to return home from Troy, that Odysseus first gets blown off course to begin his years of marine misadventure in earnest. &#xD;&#xA;[![Cape Maleas Light-House][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;The light-house mentioned in the Wikipedia article&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the 10th chapter, &quot;Unpublished Ephebic List in the Benakeion Museum of Kalamata&quot;, written (2009) by Andronike Makres in *Greek History and Epigraphy: Essays in Honour of P.J. Rhodes*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Several dedications referring to the sanctuary of 'Apollo Maleatas and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Asklepios' have been found from at least as early as the third century&#xD;&#xA;&gt; BC, which show that the sanctuary housed what was in fact a common&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cult of Apollo and his son Asklepios and that Apollo received the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sacrificial offering first.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Or Rather From the Name of a Guy**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An alternate etymology derives this epithet of Apollo from Malos, a maternal ancestor of Asklepios. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the 2nd chapter, entitled &quot;Gods of (Con)fusion: Athena Alea, Apollo Maleatas and Athena Aphaia&quot;, of Volume 64 of *Classica et Mediaevalia*, the Danish Journal of Philology and History (2013), regarding the Epidauros [Epidaurus] sanctuary of Apollon Maleates, Jeremy McInerney says on pp. 60-64:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;The cult of the Maleatas sanctuary was... of great antiquity, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; continued through the Archaic and Classical periods. The precise&#xD;&#xA;&gt; identity of the original recipient of the cult is, however, much&#xD;&#xA;&gt; harder to establish with certainty. Towards the end of the 4th century&#xD;&#xA;&gt; BC the Epidaurian poet Isyllos composed a paian to Asklepios, in which&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he referred to the god who shared Asklepios' honours:&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sup&gt;Malos was the first to build the altar of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollo Maleatas   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; And made the sanctuary splendid with sacrifices.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; Isyll., *Coll. Alex.* pp. 132-3, 27-28, tr. Bremmer&lt;/sup&gt;    &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;He goes on to recount the genealogy of Asklepios, born to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; union of Apollo and Koronis, the granddaughter of Malos. Isyllos does&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not offer any further information about the *epiklesis* Maleatas, but&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the occurrence of Malos in the same line suggests that Isyllos derived&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the god's name from the family of his worshippers...&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;The evidence prior to Isyllos' paian, however, suggests a more&#xD;&#xA;&gt; complex history. When Asklepios was welcomed at Athens from Epidauros&#xD;&#xA;&gt; c. 421 BC regulations regarding his cult stipulated separate offerings&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to Maleatas, to Apollo and to Hermes (as well as certain other minor&#xD;&#xA;&gt; deities). In the eyes of the Athenians, then, Maleatas and Apollo were&#xD;&#xA;&gt; two distinct gods, Maleatas was not an *epiklesis* of Apollo, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hence there was no need to postulate a human eponym to explain the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; god's name. Yet, around the same time in Lakonia the Spartans were&#xD;&#xA;&gt; making dedications both to Apollo and Maleatas separately and to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollo Maleatas as a single deity... Near Kosmas in the southern&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kynouria, games appear to have been held in his honour at a festival&#xD;&#xA;&gt; called the *Maleateia*. Hence the relationship between Apollo and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Maleatas is complicated. At times they appear separate, and at other&#xD;&#xA;&gt; times they appear to be a single, syncretized figure.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;It may be worth exploring the geographical associations behind&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the name in order to elucidate the god's identity. The name Maleatas&#xD;&#xA;&gt; derives from Cape Malea, the eastern-most peninsula of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Peloponnese. The original deity was simply the local version of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; youthful Archer god: Apollo of Cape Malea. At some point the local god&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was distinct from Apollo... It is hard to say when the fusion of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; two took place, but the extension of the god's reach from the eastern&#xD;&#xA;&gt; side of Lakonia to the eastern side of the Peloponnese fit well with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sparta's assertion of a claim to Kynouria, the contested borderland&#xD;&#xA;&gt; between Lakonia and Argos. Here Apollo Maleatas was pressed into&#xD;&#xA;&gt; service... Apollo Maleatas represents, in this instance, less a fusion&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of local and panhellenic cults so much as a pure expression of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; territorial hegemony.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;At Epidauros, however, the relationship of Apollo and Maleatas&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was quite different. When Apollo Maleatas makes his first appearance&#xD;&#xA;&gt; at Epidauros, in the paian of Isyllos, the entire focus of the poem is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on creating a genealogy for Asklepios rooted in the soil of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Epidauros:&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; &lt;sup&gt;[T]his is the tradition which reached the ears of our&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; forefathers, o Phoibos Apollo, it says that Zeus gave the Muse Erato&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; to Malos as his wife in holy matrimony. Now Phlegyas, whose native&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; city was Epidauros, married Malos' daughter whom Erato, her mother&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; bore, and Kleophema was her name. Phlegyas father Aigla, that was her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; name; she was also called Koronis because of her beauty. Now Phoibos&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; of the golden bow saw her in Malos' house and put an end to the season&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; of her virginity.   Isyll., *Coll. Alex.* pp.132-136. 37-49 tr.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; Bremmer&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;From the union of Phoibos and Koronis was born Asklepios.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;It is noticeable that Apollo is addressed as Phoibos, the god of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the paian. The name Maleatas drops out, and the only vestige of his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; presence is in the references to a human progenitor of the divine&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dynasty, Malos. Nor is any explicit connection made with the Lakonian&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollo Maleatas. In fact, given Malos' importance to the human side of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the family tree of Asklepios, since he is the earliest male progenitor&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the female line, it seems that, for Isyllos, Apollo Maleatas&#xD;&#xA;&gt; signified not the fusion of Apollo and Maleatas, nor specifically a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lakonian god, but simply Apollo as honoured by the family of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Malos...&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;How in fact the Lakonian god Apollo Maleatas became associated&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with the venerable cult on Mt Kynortion is unclear, although it is not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; impossible that in identifying Apollo as Maleatas the Epidaurians were&#xD;&#xA;&gt; making overtures to Sparta at the expense of their nearer neighbour,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Argos.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Walking Distance**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There seems to be no noteworthy connection between Maleates/Maleatas and the Epidauros Theatre apart from the facts of their proximity to each other, their location in the same town, and whatever clear links which may exist between the Pan-Hellenic Apollon (not necessarily as Maleates specifically) and theatre arts in general.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Maleatas Sanctuary to Epidaurus Theatre][3]][3]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;At least on current modern roads, depending on the route one takes, according to GoogleMaps, it looks like it could take less than half an hour on foot to get to the one from the other.&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/we8d1.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ONjAa.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/zLNit.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17139" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5126" RevisionGUID="a4b3d71c-2338-4cd2-a316-59faa479d3ea" CreationDate="2018-09-25T16:53:06.837" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; corrected some details" Text="**From the Name of a Place**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In William Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Mythology and Biography the name is spelled *Maleates* (Μαλεάτης), whose article entry goes on to tell us that it is &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a surname of Apollo, derived from cape Malea, in the south of Laconia.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He had sanctuaries under this name at Sparta and on mount Cynortium.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This article from the Dictionary references a couple of passages mentioning the deity in Pausanias' *Description of Greece*. In 3.12.8, Pausanias does indeed render the name as *Μαλεάτης*, saying:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Lakedaimonians have an altar of Apollon Akritas, and a sanctuary,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; surnamed Gasepton, of Ge. Above it is set up Apollon Maleates.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The cape referred to in the Dictionary is called *Cape Maleas* on Wikipedia, which it derives from Ακρωτήριον Μαλέας (*Akrotêrion Maléas*), &quot;a peninsula and cape in the southeast of the Peloponnese in Greece.&quot; The Wikipedia article adds that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;It separates the Laconian Gulf in the west from the Aegean Sea in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the east. It is the second most southerly point of mainland Greece&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (after Cape Matapan) and once featured one of the largest light-houses&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in the Mediterranean. The seas around the cape are notoriously&#xD;&#xA;&gt; treacherous and difficult to navigate, featuring variable weather and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; occasionally very powerful storms.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Cape Maleas Lighthouse GoogleEarth2][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;In the *Odyssey* (Book 9), it is while he sails westwards trying to round this cape, close to the final leg of his voyage to return home from Troy, that Odysseus first gets blown off course to begin his years of marine misadventure in earnest. &#xD;&#xA;[![Cape Maleas Light-House][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;The light-house mentioned in the Wikipedia article&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the 10th chapter, &quot;Unpublished Ephebic List in the Benakeion Museum of Kalamata&quot;, written (2009) by Andronike Makres in *Greek History and Epigraphy: Essays in Honour of P.J. Rhodes*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Several dedications referring to the sanctuary of 'Apollo Maleatas and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Asklepios' have been found from at least as early as the third century&#xD;&#xA;&gt; BC, which show that the sanctuary housed what was in fact a common&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cult of Apollo and his son Asklepios and that Apollo received the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sacrificial offering first.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Or Rather From the Name of a Guy**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An alternate etymology derives this epithet of Apollo from Malos, a maternal ancestor of Asklepios. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the 2nd chapter, entitled &quot;Gods of (Con)fusion: Athena Alea, Apollo Maleatas and Athena Aphaia&quot;, of Volume 64 of *Classica et Mediaevalia*, the Danish Journal of Philology and History (2013), regarding the Epidauros [Epidaurus] sanctuary of Apollon Maleates, Jeremy McInerney says on pp. 60-64:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;The cult of the Maleatas sanctuary was... of great antiquity, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; continued through the Archaic and Classical periods. The precise&#xD;&#xA;&gt; identity of the original recipient of the cult is, however, much&#xD;&#xA;&gt; harder to establish with certainty. Towards the end of the 4th century&#xD;&#xA;&gt; BC the Epidaurian poet Isyllos composed a paian to Asklepios, in which&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he referred to the god who shared Asklepios' honours:&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sup&gt;Malos was the first to build the altar of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollo Maleatas   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; And made the sanctuary splendid with sacrifices.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; Isyll., *Coll. Alex.* pp. 132-3, 27-28, tr. Bremmer&lt;/sup&gt;    &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;He goes on to recount the genealogy of Asklepios, born to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; union of Apollo and Koronis, the granddaughter of Malos. Isyllos does&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not offer any further information about the *epiklesis* Maleatas, but&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the occurrence of Malos in the same line suggests that Isyllos derived&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the god's name from the family of his worshippers...&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;The evidence prior to Isyllos' paian, however, suggests a more&#xD;&#xA;&gt; complex history. When Asklepios was welcomed at Athens from Epidauros&#xD;&#xA;&gt; c. 421 BC regulations regarding his cult stipulated separate offerings&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to Maleatas, to Apollo and to Hermes (as well as certain other minor&#xD;&#xA;&gt; deities). In the eyes of the Athenians, then, Maleatas and Apollo were&#xD;&#xA;&gt; two distinct gods, Maleatas was not an *epiklesis* of Apollo, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hence there was no need to postulate a human eponym to explain the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; god's name. Yet, around the same time in Lakonia the Spartans were&#xD;&#xA;&gt; making dedications both to Apollo and Maleatas separately and to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollo Maleatas as a single deity... Near Kosmas in the southern&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kynouria, games appear to have been held in his honour at a festival&#xD;&#xA;&gt; called the *Maleateia*. Hence the relationship between Apollo and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Maleatas is complicated. At times they appear separate, and at other&#xD;&#xA;&gt; times they appear to be a single, syncretized figure.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;It may be worth exploring the geographical associations behind&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the name in order to elucidate the god's identity. The name Maleatas&#xD;&#xA;&gt; derives from Cape Malea, the eastern-most peninsula of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Peloponnese. The original deity was simply the local version of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; youthful Archer god: Apollo of Cape Malea. At some point the local god&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was distinct from Apollo... It is hard to say when the fusion of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; two took place, but the extension of the god's reach from the eastern&#xD;&#xA;&gt; side of Lakonia to the eastern side of the Peloponnese fit well with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sparta's assertion of a claim to Kynouria, the contested borderland&#xD;&#xA;&gt; between Lakonia and Argos. Here Apollo Maleatas was pressed into&#xD;&#xA;&gt; service... Apollo Maleatas represents, in this instance, less a fusion&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of local and panhellenic cults so much as a pure expression of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; territorial hegemony.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;At Epidauros, however, the relationship of Apollo and Maleatas&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was quite different. When Apollo Maleatas makes his first appearance&#xD;&#xA;&gt; at Epidauros, in the paian of Isyllos, the entire focus of the poem is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on creating a genealogy for Asklepios rooted in the soil of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Epidauros:&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; &lt;sup&gt;[T]his is the tradition which reached the ears of our&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; forefathers, o Phoibos Apollo: it says that Zeus gave the Muse Erato&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; to Malos as his wife in holy matrimony. Now Phlegyas, whose native&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; city was Epidauros, married Malos' daughter whom Erato, her mother&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; bore, and Kleophema was her name. Phlegyas fathered Aigla, that was her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; name; she was also called Koronis because of her beauty. Now Phoibos&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; of the golden bow saw her in Malos' house and put an end to the season&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; of her virginity.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; Isyll., *Coll. Alex.* pp.132-136. 37-49 tr. Bremmer&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;From the union of Phoibos and Koronis was born Asklepios.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;It is noticeable that Apollo is addressed as Phoibos, the god of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the paian. The name Maleatas drops out, and the only vestige of his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; presence is in the references to a human progenitor of the divine&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dynasty, Malos. Nor is any explicit connection made with the Lakonian&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollo Maleatas. In fact, given Malos' importance to the human side of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the family tree of Asklepios, since he is the earliest male progenitor&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the female line, it seems that, for Isyllos, Apollo Maleatas&#xD;&#xA;&gt; signified not the fusion of Apollo and Maleatas, nor specifically a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lakonian god, but simply Apollo as honoured by the family of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Malos...&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;... How in fact the Lakonian god Apollo Maleatas became associated&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with the venerable cult on Mt Kynortion is unclear, although it is not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; impossible that in identifying Apollo as Maleatas the Epidaurians were&#xD;&#xA;&gt; making overtures to Sparta at the expense of their nearer neighbour,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Argos.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Walking Distance**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There seems to be no especially noteworthy connection between Maleates/Maleatas and the Epidauros Theatre beyond the fact that the god's sanctuary appears to be the nearest major man-made structure to the theatre, less than half an hour away on foot (at least on current modern roads, depending on which route one takes, according to GoogleMaps).  &#xD;&#xA;[![Maleatas Sanctuary to Epidaurus Theatre][3]][3]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/we8d1.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ONjAa.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/zLNit.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17140" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5127" RevisionGUID="b715a39d-a362-40d5-8b7c-5faf896d212e" CreationDate="2018-09-26T00:04:28.157" UserId="5391" Text="I have heard that red heads were thought to be vampires, or Judas's descendants,good for for spell ingredients, etc...&#xD;&#xA;What were the common myths like this about red heads in the Medieval Period of Europe (300-1600)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17141" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5127" RevisionGUID="b715a39d-a362-40d5-8b7c-5faf896d212e" CreationDate="2018-09-26T00:04:28.157" UserId="5391" Text="What were Medieval(300-1600) European Myths about red heads" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17142" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5127" RevisionGUID="b715a39d-a362-40d5-8b7c-5faf896d212e" CreationDate="2018-09-26T00:04:28.157" UserId="5391" Text="|european-folklore|medieval-europe|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17143" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5128" RevisionGUID="0ee75145-1cae-4e8c-bd6f-2f9641b40fad" CreationDate="2018-09-26T10:53:50.000" UserId="5247" Text="**1) Who is Scáthach?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Scáthach is the warrior woman who varyingly lives in the *'east of the world'* who Cú Chulainn is sent to train with:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Domnall said that Cuchulind would not have profession of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; instruction until he came to Scathach, who was in the east of Alba. So&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the three of them went across Alba, viz. Cuchulind, and Conchobar, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; king of Emain, and Loegaire the Victorious. [Tochmarc Emire, Rawlinson&#xD;&#xA;&gt; B. 512, Trans. Kuno Meyer]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; « Is there in the world a woman-knight who is better than the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; woman-knight with whom I am now? » asks Cuchulainn.  « There is »,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; answers the big man : « for Scáthach daughter of Buanuinne, king of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Scythia, in the east of the world, is better than she. » [Do Fogluim&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Chonculainn Annso Sios, Egerton 106, Trans. Whitley Stokes]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Her training is seemingly famous and well known&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then four Irishmen who were in the steading to be trained came to him,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and gave him many kisses, and were asking him news of their own&#xD;&#xA;&gt; country and land ; and he asked them news in the same way.  « Well, O&#xD;&#xA;&gt; vouths », says Cuchulainn, « what training in feats of valour and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; warfare have ye got in the year ? »  « We have got », they answer, «&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Bridge of the Leaps. »  « How long were ye learning it ? » asks&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cuchulainn.  « A training of a quarter and a month and a year and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; three days and three nights. »  « Well then, O youths », says&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cuchulainn, « will ye give me guidance to it ? »  « Alas, O boy »,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they say, « what profit were that to thee until Scáthach comes to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; teach thyself like every one else ? »  « I wish to see it », saith he.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Do Fogluim Chonculainn Annso Sios, Egerton 106, Trans. Whitley&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Stokes]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then they bade farewell to Scáthach, and paid the fees for their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; training by her ; and tidings of them are not told till they reached&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the country of the men of Catt. [Do Fogluim Chonculainn Annso Sios,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Egerton 106, Trans. Whitley Stokes]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**2) Who is Aoife?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aoife is another warrior woman who Scáthach seems to have an ongoing feud with:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At that time also Scathach had a feud against other tribes, over whom&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was the princess Aife.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; ... she was afraid of Aiffe, because she was the hardest woman-warrior&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in the world.  [Tochmarc Emire, Rawlinson B. 512, Trans. Kuno&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Meyer]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cú defeats her in combat and trades her life for three wishes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then they fought upon the path, Cuchulind and Aiffe. Then she broke&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cuchulind's weapon so that his sword was no longer than its hilt. Then&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cuchulind said : « Woe is me ! » said he, « Aiffe's charioteer and her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; two chariot-horses have fallen dovvn the glen, and all have perished.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; » At that Aiffe looked up. At that Cuchulind approached her, seized&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her under her breast, threw her across (his shoulder) like a burden,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and went to his own host.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; ... « Life for life ! » she said.  « My three wishes to me ! » said&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he.  « Thou shalt have them. »  « These are my three wishes : thou to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; give hostages to Scathach without ever again opposing her, to be with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; me this night before thy own dun, and to bear me a son. »&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is granted thus and was all done. Then she said she was pregnant.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; She also said that it was a son she would bear, and that the boy would&#xD;&#xA;&gt; come to Erin that day seven year. And he left a name for him.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Tochmarc Emire, Rawlinson B. 512, Trans. Kuno Meyer]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've heard they're sisters numerious times before but I can't find the textual source for this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aifè daughter of a king of Greeks in Magna Graecia [Do Fogluim&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Chonculainn Annso Sios, Egerton 106, Trans. Whitley Stokes]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**3) Who is the un-named brother?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Scáthach has plenty of children (that Cú kills) and family, but I can't find any brother, there could be one referenced in other texts, but none I've looked at. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sources:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. [Tochmarc Emire, Rawlinson B. 512, Trans. Kuno Meyer][1]&#xD;&#xA; 2. [Do Fogluim Chonculainn Annso Sios, Egerton 106, Trans. Whitley Stokes][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://sejh.pagesperso-orange.fr/keltia/version-en/wooemer1.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://sejh.pagesperso-orange.fr/keltia/version-en/cu-training.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17144" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5128" RevisionGUID="b83d7ac9-daa4-4544-87ce-74f208dfa7c4" CreationDate="2018-09-26T11:22:55.530" UserId="5247" Comment="added 202 characters in body" Text="**1) Who is Scáthach?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Scáthach is the warrior woman who varyingly lives in the *'east of the world'* who Cú Chulainn is sent to train with:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Domnall said that Cuchulind would not have profession of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; instruction until he came to Scathach, who was in the east of Alba. So&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the three of them went across Alba, viz. Cuchulind, and Conchobar, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; king of Emain, and Loegaire the Victorious. [Tochmarc Emire, Rawlinson&#xD;&#xA;&gt; B. 512, Trans. Kuno Meyer]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; « Is there in the world a woman-knight who is better than the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; woman-knight with whom I am now? » asks Cuchulainn.  « There is »,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; answers the big man : « for Scáthach daughter of Buanuinne, king of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Scythia, in the east of the world, is better than she. » [Do Fogluim&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Chonculainn Annso Sios, Egerton 106, Trans. Whitley Stokes]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Her training is seemingly famous and well known&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then four Irishmen who were in the steading to be trained came to him,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and gave him many kisses, and were asking him news of their own&#xD;&#xA;&gt; country and land ; and he asked them news in the same way.  « Well, O&#xD;&#xA;&gt; vouths », says Cuchulainn, « what training in feats of valour and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; warfare have ye got in the year ? »  « We have got », they answer, «&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Bridge of the Leaps. »  « How long were ye learning it ? » asks&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cuchulainn.  « A training of a quarter and a month and a year and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; three days and three nights. »  « Well then, O youths », says&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cuchulainn, « will ye give me guidance to it ? »  « Alas, O boy »,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they say, « what profit were that to thee until Scáthach comes to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; teach thyself like every one else ? »  « I wish to see it », saith he.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Do Fogluim Chonculainn Annso Sios, Egerton 106, Trans. Whitley&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Stokes]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then they bade farewell to Scáthach, and paid the fees for their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; training by her ; and tidings of them are not told till they reached&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the country of the men of Catt. [Do Fogluim Chonculainn Annso Sios,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Egerton 106, Trans. Whitley Stokes]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**2) Who is Aoife?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aoife is another warrior woman who Scáthach seems to have an ongoing feud with:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At that time also Scathach had a feud against other tribes, over whom&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was the princess Aife.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; ... she was afraid of Aiffe, because she was the hardest woman-warrior&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in the world.  [Tochmarc Emire, Rawlinson B. 512, Trans. Kuno&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Meyer]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cú defeats her in combat and trades her life for three wishes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then they fought upon the path, Cuchulind and Aiffe. Then she broke&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cuchulind's weapon so that his sword was no longer than its hilt. Then&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cuchulind said : « Woe is me ! » said he, « Aiffe's charioteer and her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; two chariot-horses have fallen dovvn the glen, and all have perished.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; » At that Aiffe looked up. At that Cuchulind approached her, seized&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her under her breast, threw her across (his shoulder) like a burden,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and went to his own host.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; ... « Life for life ! » she said.  « My three wishes to me ! » said&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he.  « Thou shalt have them. »  « These are my three wishes : thou to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; give hostages to Scathach without ever again opposing her, to be with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; me this night before thy own dun, and to bear me a son. »&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is granted thus and was all done. Then she said she was pregnant.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; She also said that it was a son she would bear, and that the boy would&#xD;&#xA;&gt; come to Erin that day seven year. And he left a name for him.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Tochmarc Emire, Rawlinson B. 512, Trans. Kuno Meyer]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aoife being Scáthach's sister seems to only be found in one translation of a text, I've only found it in Kuno Meyers translation of *Aided Óenfhir Aífe 'The death of Aífe's only son (lit. One-Man)'* where we see the two lines:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; .. Scathach Uanaind, daughter of Ardgeimm, in Letha, until he attained&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mastership of feats with her. And Aife, daughter of Ardgeimm ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I haven't found this connection in any other text.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**3) Who is the un-named brother?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Scáthach has plenty of children (that Cú kills) and family, but I can't find any brother, there could be one referenced in other texts, but none I've looked at. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sources:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. [Tochmarc Emire, Rawlinson B. 512, Trans. Kuno Meyer][1]&#xD;&#xA; 2. [Do Fogluim Chonculainn Annso Sios, Egerton 106, Trans. Whitley Stokes][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://sejh.pagesperso-orange.fr/keltia/version-en/wooemer1.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://sejh.pagesperso-orange.fr/keltia/version-en/cu-training.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17145" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5129" RevisionGUID="de247129-7815-4e63-a3af-574fe022d4ba" CreationDate="2018-09-26T11:34:26.190" UserId="5247" Text="I basically answer this question from the sources in another question [here][1] so I'll modify it for your question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aoife is a warrior woman who Cú's teacher Scáthach seems to have an ongoing feud with:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At that time also Scathach had a feud against other tribes, over whom&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was the princess Aife.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; ... she was afraid of Aiffe, because she was the hardest woman-warrior&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in the world.  [Tochmarc Emire, Rawlinson B. 512, Trans. Kuno&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Meyer]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So naturally, he helps out Scáthach when Aoife comes to fight and goes against her in combat, though he won through trickery rather than combat when she gets the upper hand:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then they fought upon the path, Cuchulind and Aiffe. Then she broke&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cuchulind's weapon so that his sword was no longer than its hilt. Then&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cuchulind said : « Woe is me ! » said he, « Aiffe's charioteer and her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; two chariot-horses have fallen dovvn the glen, and all have perished.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; » At that Aiffe looked up. At that Cuchulind approached her, seized&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her under her breast, threw her across (his shoulder) like a burden,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and went to his own host. [Do Fogluim Chonculainn Annso Sios, Egerton 106, &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Trans. Whitley Stokes]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the loving each other bit, no way. Cú trades her life in return for her bearing him a son, medieval sources tend to include *a lot* of rape which gets scrubbed out in modern retellings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ... « Life for life ! » she said.  « My three wishes to me ! » said&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he.  « Thou shalt have them. »  « These are my three wishes : thou to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; give hostages to Scathach without ever again opposing her, to be with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; me this night before thy own dun, and to bear me a son. »&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is granted thus and was all done. Then she said she was pregnant.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; She also said that it was a son she would bear, and that the boy would&#xD;&#xA;&gt; come to Erin that day seven year. And he left a name for him.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Tochmarc Emire, Rawlinson B. 512, Trans. Kuno Meyer]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sources:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. [Tochmarc Emire, Rawlinson B. 512, Trans. Kuno Meyer][2]&#xD;&#xA; 2. [Do Fogluim Chonculainn Annso Sios, Egerton 106, Trans. Whitley Stokes][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/3372/who-was-scathach-and-aofie&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://sejh.pagesperso-orange.fr/keltia/version-en/wooemer1.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://sejh.pagesperso-orange.fr/keltia/version-en/cu-training.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17147" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3372" RevisionGUID="ff4c2646-1992-4a0d-a5ae-5f3663bfc8d3" CreationDate="2018-09-27T07:46:58.183" UserId="5247" Comment="Miss spelt Aoife" Text="Who was Scathach and Aoife?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17148" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3372" RevisionGUID="ff4c2646-1992-4a0d-a5ae-5f3663bfc8d3" CreationDate="2018-09-27T07:46:58.183" Comment="Proposed by 5247 approved by 1241, 2774 edit id of 1678" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17151" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5132" RevisionGUID="8fa21d06-c0c1-48e9-a0e3-ce623e8a2459" CreationDate="2018-09-27T11:11:50.063" UserId="5397" Text="There are a lot of instances in viking history where one of them wold carve this graffiti on a wall, one of the most famous being the Halfdan inscription on the Hagia Sophia.&#xD;&#xA;I've been looking everywhere for a restored version of this text with no luck.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does someone know how is this text written in runes?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17152" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5132" RevisionGUID="8fa21d06-c0c1-48e9-a0e3-ce623e8a2459" CreationDate="2018-09-27T11:11:50.063" UserId="5397" Text="What are the runes for &quot;[name] carved this runes&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17153" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5132" RevisionGUID="8fa21d06-c0c1-48e9-a0e3-ce623e8a2459" CreationDate="2018-09-27T11:11:50.063" UserId="5397" Text="|norse|runes|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17154" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5128" RevisionGUID="6eabe434-3770-496d-a02c-603505fce2e0" CreationDate="2018-09-27T11:50:42.477" UserId="5247" Comment="added 199 characters in body" Text="**1) Who is Scáthach?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Scáthach is the warrior woman who varyingly lives in the *'east of the world'* who Cú Chulainn is sent to train with:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Domnall said that Cuchulind would not have profession of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; instruction until he came to Scathach, who was in the east of Alba. So&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the three of them went across Alba, viz. Cuchulind, and Conchobar, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; king of Emain, and Loegaire the Victorious. [Tochmarc Emire, Rawlinson&#xD;&#xA;&gt; B. 512, Trans. Kuno Meyer]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; « Is there in the world a woman-knight who is better than the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; woman-knight with whom I am now? » asks Cuchulainn.  « There is »,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; answers the big man : « for Scáthach daughter of Buanuinne, king of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Scythia, in the east of the world, is better than she. » [Do Fogluim&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Chonculainn Annso Sios, Egerton 106, Trans. Whitley Stokes]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Her training is seemingly famous and well known&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then four Irishmen who were in the steading to be trained came to him,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and gave him many kisses, and were asking him news of their own&#xD;&#xA;&gt; country and land ; and he asked them news in the same way.  « Well, O&#xD;&#xA;&gt; vouths », says Cuchulainn, « what training in feats of valour and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; warfare have ye got in the year ? »  « We have got », they answer, «&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Bridge of the Leaps. »  « How long were ye learning it ? » asks&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cuchulainn.  « A training of a quarter and a month and a year and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; three days and three nights. »  « Well then, O youths », says&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cuchulainn, « will ye give me guidance to it ? »  « Alas, O boy »,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they say, « what profit were that to thee until Scáthach comes to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; teach thyself like every one else ? »  « I wish to see it », saith he.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Do Fogluim Chonculainn Annso Sios, Egerton 106, Trans. Whitley&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Stokes]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then they bade farewell to Scáthach, and paid the fees for their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; training by her ; and tidings of them are not told till they reached&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the country of the men of Catt. [Do Fogluim Chonculainn Annso Sios,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Egerton 106, Trans. Whitley Stokes]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**2) Who is Aoife?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aoife is another warrior woman who Scáthach seems to have an ongoing feud with:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At that time also Scathach had a feud against other tribes, over whom&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was the princess Aife.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; ... she was afraid of Aiffe, because she was the hardest woman-warrior&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in the world.  [Tochmarc Emire, Rawlinson B. 512, Trans. Kuno&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Meyer]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cú defeats her in combat and trades her life for three wishes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then they fought upon the path, Cuchulind and Aiffe. Then she broke&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cuchulind's weapon so that his sword was no longer than its hilt. Then&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cuchulind said : « Woe is me ! » said he, « Aiffe's charioteer and her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; two chariot-horses have fallen dovvn the glen, and all have perished.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; » At that Aiffe looked up. At that Cuchulind approached her, seized&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her under her breast, threw her across (his shoulder) like a burden,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and went to his own host.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; ... « Life for life ! » she said.  « My three wishes to me ! » said&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he.  « Thou shalt have them. »  « These are my three wishes : thou to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; give hostages to Scathach without ever again opposing her, to be with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; me this night before thy own dun, and to bear me a son. »&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is granted thus and was all done. Then she said she was pregnant.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; She also said that it was a son she would bear, and that the boy would&#xD;&#xA;&gt; come to Erin that day seven year. And he left a name for him.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Tochmarc Emire, Rawlinson B. 512, Trans. Kuno Meyer]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aoife being Scáthach's sister seems to only be found in one translation of a text, I've only found it in Kuno Meyers translation of *Aided Óenfhir Aífe 'The death of Aífe's only son (lit. Violent death [of] One-Man [of] Aífe)'* where we see the two lines:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; .. Scathach Uanaind, daughter of Ardgeimm, in Letha, until he attained&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mastership of feats with her. And Aife, daughter of Ardgeimm ... [Aided Óenfhir Aífe, Yellow Book of Lecan, Tans. Kuno Meyer]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I haven't found this connection in any other text.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**3) Who is the un-named brother?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Scáthach has plenty of children (that Cú kills) and family, but I can't find any brother, there could be one referenced in other texts, but none I've looked at. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sources:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. [Tochmarc Emire, Rawlinson B. 512, Trans. Kuno Meyer][1]&#xD;&#xA; 2. [Do Fogluim Chonculainn Annso Sios, Egerton 106, Trans. Whitley Stokes][2]&#xD;&#xA; 3. [Aided Óenfhir Aífe, Yellow Book of Lecan, Tans. Kuno Meyer][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://sejh.pagesperso-orange.fr/keltia/version-en/wooemer1.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://sejh.pagesperso-orange.fr/keltia/version-en/cu-training.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.jstor.org/stable/30007938?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17155" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5132" RevisionGUID="f77880e3-a1a5-4582-bf06-1cda8f6ae009" CreationDate="2018-09-27T13:25:29.053" UserId="5397" Comment="added 14 characters in body" Text="There are a lot of instances in viking history where one of them wold carve this graffiti on a wall, one of the most famous being the Halfdan inscription on the Hagia Sophia.&#xD;&#xA;I've been looking everywhere for a restored version of this text with no luck.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does someone know how is this text written in Elder Futhark runes?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17158" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5133" RevisionGUID="98b47fb6-64cb-4bd0-a54b-989ad74c8668" CreationDate="2018-09-28T08:35:50.540" UserId="3293" Text="What r the creation myths associated with the early Indus valley civilization or Harrapan civilization? &#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17159" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5133" RevisionGUID="98b47fb6-64cb-4bd0-a54b-989ad74c8668" CreationDate="2018-09-28T08:35:50.540" UserId="3293" Text="Indus valley or Harrapan civilization creation myths" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17160" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5133" RevisionGUID="98b47fb6-64cb-4bd0-a54b-989ad74c8668" CreationDate="2018-09-28T08:35:50.540" UserId="3293" Text="|india|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17161" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5134" RevisionGUID="f8ec723d-47be-4c3d-8407-32c5ae3aefc2" CreationDate="2018-09-28T20:17:06.120" UserId="5402" Text="First we have to understand what kind of love there is. I will assume we talk about eros love. Eros love is divided in the aerial love of feelings and the earth love of sexuality. Eros acts as a trigger. This is why Eros is one of the primal gods. Eros always tries to create and unite. Eros triggers the unknown and the will to find or create something. So he is not responsible for what it follows.&#xD;&#xA;Now let's understand moirai. Moirai are three United goddess that follow a man's path.&#xD;&#xA;Klotho. Klotho is the one that will decide if the eros will create a man between a man and a woman. &#xD;&#xA;Lahesis. Lahesis is the one that will decide what will happen to a man came in life whether is good or bad.&#xD;&#xA;Atropos. Atropos is the one will decide when a man's life will end.&#xD;&#xA;So for sure Lahesis has an important role on what will happen in a man's life concerning his erotic life after eros joined them. They may fight or even divorce or live happy or be successful couple. But in no way Lahesis can ensure that your happiness with your lover is also the others happiness. Because Lahesis and all moirai act independently to all. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17167" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2883" RevisionGUID="9e97a141-7321-45fe-be9f-1cbf9a57608c" CreationDate="2018-09-30T12:59:06.123" UserId="-1" Comment="updated broken link" Text="I don't think it would be possible to know for certain unless we ask the artist who drew it, but the symbol looks like a very simplified version of the Chinese [taijitu][1],  the &quot;[yin and yang symbol][2]&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![yin and yang symbol][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taijitu&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Zi745.png&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/3bX4u.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17168" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2883" RevisionGUID="9e97a141-7321-45fe-be9f-1cbf9a57608c" CreationDate="2018-09-30T12:59:06.123" Comment="Proposed by anonymous approved by 57 edit id of 1679" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17180" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5139" RevisionGUID="87ab80df-0d04-4f06-8718-78619681b6e0" CreationDate="2018-10-01T20:19:53.587" UserId="666" Text="The Elder Futhark was in use ca 100-800 CE, mostly in Scandinavia, but also in (modern) Germany, Eastern Europe and Britain. During this period, the Proto-Norse language changed tremendously. Transliterated Old Norse, which came after, is somewhat readable today by mainland Scandinavians. Proto-Norse from 100 CE is almost totally unintelligible. Thus, asking for the word for &quot;carve&quot; written in the Elder Futhark is not a very well-defined question, as the Futhark is simply another type of alphabet - you also need to specify a language.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But suppose we would be satisfied with any type of Proto-Norse/Old Norse? The [Rök Runestone][1] was created at the end the period, and includes a part of how it was created. Furthermore, the [Sparlösa Runestone][2] is just a bit younger. The Rök stone mainly uses the Elder Futhark, the Sparlösa stone mainly the younger, but they both mix a bit. Interestingly, they also both uses a different word than would later be used for the carvings done using the younger Futhark: instead of &quot;risti&quot;, they used &quot;faþi&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, for late Proto-Norse rendered in the Elder Futhark, the word you'd use when writing runes would be&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;ᚠᚨᚦᛁ&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, on the Rök stone, it was actually written&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;ᚠᛅᚦᛁ&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For comparison, here is a rendering of &quot;risti&quot; in the Younger Futhark, which is what Halvdan would probably have written in the Hagia Sofia:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;ᚱᛁᛋᛏᛁ&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(This is one of the most common word on all rune stones, as they were raised by the thousands in the area around Stockholm in the 11th century CE, often using a highly standardised message).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%B6k_Runestone&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparl%C3%B6sa_Runestone" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17181" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="3002" RevisionGUID="4129acfc-f480-44d4-a171-b875ab2d830c" CreationDate="2018-10-02T23:00:37.973" UserId="-1" Comment="73" />
  <row Id="17182" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5140" RevisionGUID="fed190c2-ae5d-4329-a1e9-8022362e8003" CreationDate="2018-10-03T18:10:16.773" UserId="3341" Text="Not sure if this is what you're looking for, but it looked promising.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Odinn and His Cosmic Cross&quot; (pdf) &#xD;&#xA;https://skemman.is/bitstream/1946/27093/1/Thesis%20Final%20Draft%20pdf.pdf  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The term used is sjalsforn (self-sacrifice).  &quot;...sjálfsfórn contains metaphysical concepts found in religions across the globe...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;This work will broaden the discussion surrounding sjálfsfórn by comparing it with various Indo-European myths and rituals. The oldest of these Indo-European traditions is the Rudra initiation, where the center pole of the initiation hut represents the center of the universe as well as the personification of Rudra. Shamanic initiations also display parallels to Óðinn’s self-hanging and this thesis will compare these rituals as well. Finnish shaman initiates must undergo torment to gain power, like Óðinn does in sjálfsfórn, and they must climb a tree, which represents the cosmic tree. The Sun Dance of the Plains Native Americans is a distant but similar ritual. Like Óðinn, the Sun Dance initiate is tethered to a tree, which represents the axis mundi, and sometimes they even hang from the tree. All of these myths and traditions convey the concept of the cosmic pillar as the ultimate liminal space, as well as the ideal location for sacrifice and initiation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;To carry out these comparisons, this thesis is based upon Schjødt’s four levels of comparison. It compares sjálfsfórn with the rest of the Old Norse Corpus, with cultures neighboring Scandinavia, with other Indo-European cultures, and with typologically similar rituals such as the Sun Dance. This methodology will serve to reveal the self-hanging’s relationships to other myths and rituals, and it will highlight sjálfsfórn’s place in mythic tradition.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17183" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5141" RevisionGUID="506954d5-374d-40fc-8912-8213448298dc" CreationDate="2018-10-03T18:40:31.110" UserId="742" Text="Rabbi [Gedaliah ibn Yachya][1] in his work Shalshelet ha-Kabbalah (Jerusalem, 1962), p. 223 alleges that when sacrificing animals, some pagans would remove the gallbladder (מרה, marah) from the animal in order to symbolize that they request sweet things from their god, not bitterness (מרה, marah). Is there any evidence of such a practice in the ancient world? If so, which cult(ure)s followed such a practice?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gedaliah_ibn_Yahya_ben_Joseph" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17184" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5141" RevisionGUID="506954d5-374d-40fc-8912-8213448298dc" CreationDate="2018-10-03T18:40:31.110" UserId="742" Text="Did a pagan cult remove the gallbladder of animals before sacrificing them?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17185" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5141" RevisionGUID="506954d5-374d-40fc-8912-8213448298dc" CreationDate="2018-10-03T18:40:31.110" UserId="742" Text="|symbolism|animals|sacrifice|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17187" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5142" RevisionGUID="fb12b58d-2bdf-4ea7-93e8-8887a7392bdb" CreationDate="2018-10-03T21:08:43.277" UserId="2892" Text="Because the internet hold a great deal of misinformation and disinformation, for obscure mythologies your best bet is scholarly work. (Folklorists and academic researchers.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Books &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You'll want to look for books on the subjects.  Be cognizant of the author and their background, and the time period of the work.  (Older anthropological work may not be current because methods have been continually refined.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Bibliographies&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is important to 1) vet the book your are considering.  A robust bibliography, with references to both source material and academic publications is optimal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Research Papers&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jstor can be annoying to deal with if you are not in an academic institution, but members of the general public can access a limited number of papers at any given time. (I think they restrict you to 4 at once.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Research papers are going to be the ideal supplement to books because the scope tends to be more limited, and there may be more papers than full books.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - citations on wikipedia pages&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia can be a good place to start your research. The key to using Wikipedia effectively is to check the citation for any given content on the wiki.  If there's no citation, the information should be considered unreliable.  (Not all uncited info is incorrect, but without the citation, you can't validate that.)  You can use wiki citations to find source material (research papers, articles, and books)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17188" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5143" RevisionGUID="05f6f746-4501-4629-a082-1957aee3ca71" CreationDate="2018-10-03T21:31:55.703" UserId="2892" Text="I was taught that there is a relationship between [φοῖβος][1] (brightness) and [φόβος][2] (fear).  The idea is that Apollo's radiance is not gentle, but glaring like the sun.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollo is not typically portrayed a &quot;warm, fuzzy&quot; character, but as uncompromising, like truth, for which he is a patron. His brightness is fearsome, deadly, and unerring, like his arrows. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even the inspiration he gives his priestesses, the Mantises, is a form of [μανία][3] (mania/madness).   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So it's a name and a description, but a description that has linguistic (morphological) similarity to the word for fear. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dfoi%3Dbos&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dfo%2Fbos&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dmani%2Fa1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17189" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5133" RevisionGUID="a5c9c68a-9ccf-45cd-bf89-1abe575886d3" CreationDate="2018-10-04T05:05:07.383" UserId="3293" Comment="added 3 characters in body" Text="What r the religious beliefs associated with the early Indus valley civilization or Harrapan civilization? &#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17191" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5142" RevisionGUID="be42dd5b-d0a1-47e3-bc6f-f77bb9ac30ca" CreationDate="2018-10-04T17:33:37.260" UserId="2892" Comment="added 42 characters in body" Text="Because the internet hold a great deal of misinformation and disinformation, for obscure mythologies your best bet is scholarly work. (Folklorists and academic researchers.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Books &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You'll want to look for books on the subjects.  Be cognizant of the author and their background, and the time period of the work.  (Older anthropological work may not be current because methods have been continually refined.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Bibliographies&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is important to 1) vet the book your are considering, and; 2) find additional books and papers.  A robust bibliography, with references to both source material and academic publications is optimal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Research Papers&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jstor can be annoying to deal with if you are not in an academic institution, but members of the general public can access a limited number of papers at any given time. (I think they restrict you to 4 at once.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Research papers are going to be the ideal supplement to books because the scope tends to be more limited, and there may be more papers than full books.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Citations on wikipedia pages&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia can be a good place to start your research. The key to using Wikipedia effectively is to check the citation for any given content on the wiki.  If there's no citation, the information should be considered unreliable.  (Not all uncited info is incorrect, but without the citation, you can't validate that.)  You can use wiki citations to find source material (research papers, articles, and books)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17192" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1816" RevisionGUID="0bfac6b0-2f9e-4403-9ba3-6cb7c0af9468" CreationDate="2018-10-04T23:12:09.457" UserId="2682" Comment="added info" Text="**Amurru**, an Amorite deity often referred to as a storm-god, is depicted on ancient cylinder seals carrying a curved object called, in Akkadian, a *gamlu*, which is generally interpreted as a shepherd's crook, e.g. by writers such as Henri Frankfort (in his 1939 book *Cylinder Seals: A Documentary Essay on the Art and Religion of the Ancient Near East*), Aïcha Rahmouni (in her 2008 book *Divine Epithets in the Ugaritic Alphabetic Texts*) and Joshua J. Mark (on the website [Ancient.eu](https://www.ancient.eu/article/221/the-mesopotamian-pantheon/)).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Several Egyptian gods commonly appear carrying a shepherd's crook, which, together with a flail, indicates them as royalty: the &quot;shepherds of the people.&quot; Two of these deities, **Ra** and **Ausar** (whom the Greek called Osiris), are believed to have been among the earliest kings of Egypt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In late Pharaonic Egypt, Ra was merged with Ausar's son and heir Heru (Horus) to form **Ra-Harakhte**, &quot;Ra Who is Heru of the Two Horizons.&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;[![Ra-Harakhte][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Here Djedkhonsuiwesankh, the daughter of a priest, makes offerings to him as he sits enthroned, carrying the crook and flail.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps the best-known deity to wield the shepherd's crook is Ausar (pictured below), the ruler of the dead and of the otherworld which they inhabited.  &#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;A very ancient god, named **Andjety**, from a place called Andjet in Egypt, may have been an earlier form of Ausar. He too carried a shepherd's crook.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Egyptian moon-god **Khonsu** also bore the crook and flail.  &#xD;&#xA;[![Khonsu][3]][3] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Pan**, the Greek god of flocks and shepherds, is portrayed holding a shepherd's crook.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Pan with Goat][4]][4]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Pan with Goat, at British Museum&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Pan in Dionysos' Retinue][5]][5]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Hoofed Pan from Roman sarcophagus depicting Dionysos' triumphal procession through India&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Gaeeus**, a minor Libyan sea-god who may have been a marine shepherd, also wields this implement. His name seems to mean &quot;Gaia's&quot; (*Of the Earth*).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Gaeeus &amp; Pherusa][6]][6]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Gaaeus (far left) with the Nereid Pherusa, in mosaic from Roman Antioch&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A Phrygian vegetation deity whom the Greek called [**Attis**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attis) is depicted in a life-size statue of him which was found at Ostia, outside Rome. The image is holding a shepherd's crook in its left hand.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/qhQkg.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/IsB7a.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ngHFh.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/OPCm6.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/3lOon.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/kaoR2.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17193" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3523" RevisionGUID="ffaa5069-64f2-4083-9d13-2bb111442235" CreationDate="2018-10-05T04:50:04.447" UserId="2682" Comment="added info" Text="BRIEF&#xD;&#xA;=====&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Euripides, the dowry of Klytaimnestra [Clytaemnestra/ Clytemnestra]&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; is a male slave and some other undisclosed items (and/or persons?). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We do not have any such detail(s) about what Helen's dowry is, unless we guess that the entire kingdom of Lakedaimon *is* this dowry. I'm not convinced that such is necessarily the case. (More on that below.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From his father Atreus, Agamemnon inherits the kingdom of Argolis, which is already wealthy and powerful at the time of his accession to the throne thereof. He goes on to augment its power through his own agency. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no obvious connection between his marriage and his status, except insofar as it appears to be strategically beneficial in terms of political alliance. On top of that, things are yet easier for him in this regard because his brother Menelaus, with whom he is on good terms, has already married into the same family by the time that Agamemnon weds Klytaimnestra.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apart from gaining a high-class wife, as well as further consolidation of power between Argolis and Lakedaimon, somehow (it seems counter-intuitive, at least from a regional diplomacy point-of-view, to start it off by widowing the prospective bride and killing her baby), I don't see that Agamemnon has anything to gain by marrying Klytaimnestra. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Based on all this, his status does *not* seem to depend on his wife, royal or otherwise. Granted, of course, that upon feeling slighted enough by him, this wife does organise for him to be slaughtered when he returns home from Troy, so in that sense, well... his status depends on her a frightfully good deal.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Klytaimnestra's Dowry**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the end of the 400s BC Euripides wrote a play entitled *Iphigeneia at Aulis*, in which a fairly major character is a quirky unnamed individual known simply as the &quot;Old Man.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the play's introduction scene, it is pointed out that the Old Man is a slave belonging to the royal household of Argolis. Via a bit of expository dialogue in Lines 42-45—addressed here to Agamemnon but really directed at the audience—the slave reveals to us that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Your old father-in-law Tyndareos [Tyndareus] gave me to your wife Klytaimnestra&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as part of her dowry, to be her loyal servant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Old Man makes a number of subsequent appearances on stage. In his final scene he reminds us—this time addressing Klytaimnestra—that, &quot;as you know, I was part of your dowry when you married King Agamemnon&quot; (Line 869).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These are the only explicit ancient references I have found to the content of Klytaimnestra's dowry.&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; The elderly slave makes no mention of what (or who) else accompanied him at the time of the transfer in question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Helen's Dowry**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is arguably a lot messier to determine what Helen's dowry was. It could perhaps be said that her dowry was the entire kingdom of Lakedaimon, into which Helen had been born a princess, but I don't see any explicit mention which draws that conclusion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is a (maybe surprisingly) common trope in Greek mythology for a foreign man to marry into a city's royal family and thus become king, succeeding his father-in-law on the throne. Typically this is because the father-in-law has produced no direct male heirs or he has survived all of his male issue. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(See for example Perseus inheriting the throne of Ethiopia, which he never takes but transfers to his firstborn son Perses; Pelops—grandfather of Agamemnon and Menelaus—becoming king of Pisa after Oinomaos [Oenomaus]&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;; Alkathous [Alcathous], a son of Pelops [and thus uncle of Agamemnon and Menelaus] becoming king of Megara after Megareus; Sikyon [Sicyon], another son of Pelops, succeeding Lamedon as king of Mekone, which he renames Sikyon after himself; and [Priam's ancestor] Dardanos [Dardanus] becoming king of Teukria [Teucria] after Teukros [Teucer].) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are we to automatically understand from this that the kingdom which the outsider inherits is ordinarily part of his princess bride's dowry? If the answer to that is no, then we do not seem to be told—between the entire kingdom of Lakedaimon on the one hand, and merely a fraction of its resources on the other—where Helen's dowry begins and ends.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Status of Menelaus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But let's assume that the answer to that is yes, and that the dowry in question includes the lion's share of Tyndareos' family wealth. How Helen and her own position should affect the status of Menelaus is still a murky thing to ascertain, not least because of the unprecedented saga in which the two of them get embroiled. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It obviously is an unusual nuptial negotiation setup to have all of Greece's most powerful and most important kings and princes suing for the hand of one princess at the same time with as much determination as the suits for Helen end up garnering.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nonetheless, even with all of that baggage to deal with, there is a scene in *Iphigeneia at Aulis* which suggests that Menelaus bears no obligation to recover his wife from Paris. At his first appearance in the play, Menelaus engages Agamemnon in a quarrel about the planned sacrifice of Agamemnon's daughter Iphigeneia to Artemis in order for the goddess to release the winds for the Greek fleet to sail to Troy and attack it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Agamemnon has been trying to find a way to avoid killing his daughter, and Menelaus berates him for it. They are interrupted by a messenger's announcement of the arrival of Iphigeneia, who believes that she's been summoned in order to wed the Myrmidon leader Achilles. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Upon Agamemnon's evident anguish that his daughter is now in Aulis, Menelaus changes his mind and even urges Agamemnon not to go through with it. They could just disband the gathered army and forget the whole expedition. As he says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; After all, what is it exactly that I want? Is it marriage? Surely I&#xD;&#xA;&gt; could find another wife elsewhere! Gods forbid that I should choose to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lose a brother to win a Helen! Should I exchange the good for bad?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He doesn't seem much concerned about losing the throne, if such a threat even exists. Another wrinkle to the question of Lakedaimon's throne has already appeared. Menelaus and Helen have a daughter, named Hermione, whom Helen left behind in Lakedaimon when she took off with Paris. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is Hermione a secure heir at this point, whether her mother is a present and dutiful wife or if her mother has been taken by another man? Is it enough that Menelaus has had a legitimate daughter by the previous heiress to the kingdom, whatever it is that may have happened to said heiress?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going by what seems to be virtually customary all over Greece and the Mediterranean Basin by this point, as far as the Greek myths go, all we would need to do is find an eligible (typically foreign and royal) bachelor for Hermione to wed and it's all good: he would be the next king. And that need not mean Menelaus' displacement before his time is done.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As fate would have it, later on, after the saga has cooled down and Helen has been brought back, a stranger (in a sense) comes to town and marries Hermione. The groom is none other than Prince Orestes of Argolis, the son of Agamemnon and Klytaimnestra, and thus Hermione's own cousin, who will thus rule over both Argolis and Lakedaimon in a consolidated position now stronger than either of the immediately preceding rulers of these kingdoms.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going back to Menelaus: perhaps the lines are blurry enough between wounded pride; the famous Oath of Tyndareos; and doubt as to whether his position on the throne is secure after he has been so vilely cuckolded and robbed of &quot;the treasures&quot; (which are usually invoked as part of what the Greeks demand to be returned along with Helen) by an honoured guest in his house, that, by the conclusion, his brother Agamemnon is convinced of his obligation to sacrifice Iphigeneia. Thereafter, of course, come the  long years of war far from home. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Status of Agamemnon**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While Menelaus' status might be quite open to interpretation, I think that Agamemnon's is much less so. Apart from the apparent politically diplomatic (and thereby strategic?) connection to his wife's family and its fame, Agamemnon does not appear to have anything to gain by marrying Klytaimnestra. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Agamemnon is primarily the king of the city of Mykenai [Mycenae], which position makes him the ruler of all of Argolis, a large northeastern swath of Peloponnesos [Peloponnesus] which contains the great cities of Argos, Tiryns and Troizenos [Troezen]. The rule of the city of Argos is divided among at least four kings (including Kyanippos son of Adrastos; Sthenelos son of Iphis; and Tlepolemos son of Herakles) who reign under Agamemnon. By the time the Trojan War has ended (or shortly after) so have the reigns of these men, unceremoniously, while the throne of Agamemnon is still very much intact, to later devolve upon his son Orestes, who becomes even more powerful than his father.&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Shortly after becoming king, Agamemnon led an army north of Argos, against King Hippolytos [Hippolytus] of Sikyon, a great-grandson of Herakles, and made him subject to Mykenai. According to Strabo (*Geographika* 8):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When everything fell to the sons of Atreus, Agamemnon, being the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; elder, assumed the supreme power, and by a combination of good fortune&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and valour acquired much of the country in addition to the possessions&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he already had; and indeed he also added Lakonia to the territory of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mykenai. Now Menelaus came into possession of Lakonia, but Agamemnon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; received Mykenai and the regions as far as Korinthos [Corinth] and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sikyon and the country which at that time was called the land of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ionians and Aegialians but later the land of the Achaeans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lakedaimon was part of Lakonia. Strabo's account here essentially nullifies altogether the idea that Menelaus was dependent on his father-in-law for his position as king of Lakedaimon. Apollodorus' *Epitome* 2.15, however, tells a somewhat different story in which Tyndareos, at least for a time, looked after Agamemnon and Menelaus when they were in exile from Argolis, saying that he brought them back from their wanderings in Sikyon and Aitolia [Aetolia] so that they could reclaim their birthright. Perhaps there was some symbiosis taking place in their relationship with Tyndareos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond all that, Agamemnon held territory near Pylos in Messenia (on the direct opposite side of Peloponnesos from his home base), at least seven cities' worth, and, according to Strabo, he imposed his rule over all of Peloponnesos, like his grandfather Pelops, who had (re)named the vast southern peninsula of Greece, &quot;Pelops' Island,&quot; after himself, its emperor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is remarkable that Agamemnon gets away with the murder of Klytaimnestra's former husband, and the manner in which he manages to do so is noteworthy. In *Iphigeneia at Aulis* 1150-1155, Klytaimnestra's divine brothers the twin Dioskouroi [Dioscuri], who had departed from the world of mortals years before, are so enraged at Agamemnon's slaying of their brother-in-law and their nephew that they actually leave Zeus' side (presumably in heaven or on Mt Olympos [Olympus]) and come charging on immortal horseback against Agamemnon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Inexplicably, Agamemnon pleads with Tyndareos to help him out, and Tyndareos obliges him, not only convincing the Dioskouroi to forgive the offence but also marrying Klytaimnestra off to her husband's killer! Either Agamemnon had something on Tyndareos or they must have had a stellar relationship. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;None of these events, however, seem to add to Agamemnon's clout beyond the ways already aforementioned. He was already a rich and powerful king and his dominions continued to increase after he got married, evidently *in spite of* the marriage. As pointed out previously, his brother already ruled the southeastern portion of Peloponnesos (which Strabo understands Agamemnon to have given to him in the first place anyway), which certainly would only have served him further.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Peloponnesos map][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;Again, not that any of this saved him from a bedchamber assassination plot when he got back home from the war in Asia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Murder of Tantalos** [Tantalus]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I can think of one theoretical motive behind Agamemnon's actions surrounding his marriage to Klytaimnestra. As alluded to above, Agamemnon acquired Klytaimnestra as a bride by killing the man to whom she was already wed at the time that Agamemnon forcibly betrothed her to himself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This man was named Tantalos, whom Pausanias tells us was the son of either Thyestes or Broteas. Thyestes was the brother of Atreus, thus making the former rendition of Tantalos a cousin of Agamemnon. Broteas was the brother of Pelops, so in the latter case Tantalos would have been from the previous generation, as a cousin of Atreus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia claims that this Tantalos was king either of Lydia in Asia Minor or of the city of Pisa on Peloponnesos. It provides no reference(s) for the claim regarding Lydia but as far as Pisa is concerned, *Iphigeneia at Aulis* is cited as the source. The only two mentions of Tantalos in this play, however, are: a cursory reference to the first Tantalos—Pelops' and Broteas' father, after whom this second one (his grandson or great-grandson) is named; and when Klytaimnestra reminds Agamemnon that he had killed her first husband who bore this name. Nothing is said about anyone ruling Lydia, and Pisa appears nowhere in the script.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia therefore seems to be confounding the first Tantalos with the second in calling him king of Lydia. As for him being king of Pisa, it is not an unreasonable conclusion, since, if Thyestes is Tantalos' father, then Thyestes' father Pelops would have preceded Tantalos on that city's throne. Nevertheless, Wikipedia might be first place at which such a conclusion has been arrived.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It would have been quite helpful if we did have some ancient document corroborating these claims, whereupon we could suggest that perhaps Agamemnon killed Tantalos as an act of royal usurpation. Even this would fall short of much substance, however, since Agamemnon never comes to have any interest whatsoever in the faraway Lydia. Pisa, on the other hand, never comes up as carrying especial importance, even as it falls under the purview of Agamemnon when he becomes dominant over the whole of Pelops' Island.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A more compelling version of our Tantalos here could be if he were the son of Thyestes and perceived by Agamemnon as a potential threat to his hold on the throne of Argolis. A jumble of other traditions recount the nasty rivalry between Atreus and Thyestes before the births of their children, culminating in the death of Thyestes, and the ascendancy of Atreus and his offspring. That rivalry had been centred mostly on a fight for sovereignty over Argos. It makes a lot of sense for there to be bad blood between the heirs of Atreus and Thyestes, here represented by Agamemnon and Tantalos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This would have sealed the deal for your Question, I think, if we knew that Tantalos had been king of Argos (or even of some other minor city in Argolis) and that Agamemnon killed him specifically for this reason. From there it would take a short step to assert that Agamemnon may have needed this king's widow to cement himself into position as the new ruler. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But none of this is the case. For the slaying of Tantalos, we are never supplied with a motive on the part of Agamemnon, who we know to already have been the unrivalled heir to the throne, if not already king, of Argolis. The preceding guesses make for a more fleshed out back story, but they are merely that: my guesswork. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as the marriage aspect of this is concerned, it may be simply that Agamemnon was so enamoured of Klytaimnestra that he determined to procure her regardless of the collateral damage. But neither is *this* spelled out so starkly or clearly anywhere. Aside from the (modest?) dowry and potential minor fringe benefits aforementioned, and the more mundane reasons that anyone else would have for engaging in nuptials, Agamemnon gets nothing from his bride he doesn't already have.          &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Notes**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Okay, so *technically* [the true ancient spelling of this character's name](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clytemnestra#Name), such as it occurs,  for instance in *Iphigeneia at Aulis*, actually has no N in it. It is really Κλυταιμήστρα = Klytaimestra/ Clyt[a]emestra. The more common spelling in modern times (*with* the N), such as I have opted to use in this Answer, supposedly does not occur before the 700s AD, at the earliest.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. It would be interesting if there *are* after all other references which provide further detail.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. In the case of Pelops and Oinomaos, the only way for Pelops to marry Oinomaos' daughter is by, first, defeating his father-in-law-to-be in a chariot-race and then killing Oinomaos, which tasks Pelops succeeds in performing (even if he cheats a little bit in order to win).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;4. Between Agamemnon's death and Orestes' accession to the throne, though, there is a sort of interregnum in which Kylarabes son of Sthenelos rules Argolis.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ZccZZ.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17195" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2937" RevisionGUID="e00b81dd-a0be-46c0-8c91-f0addb4d1948" CreationDate="2018-10-06T08:18:26.917" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; tweaked a detail" Text="In the theogony found in Hyginus’ *Fabulae*, Caligine, “Fog,” gives birth to Chaos and then marries him. Their son **Erebus**, “Darkness,” then marries his own sister Nox, “Night.” Erebus and Nox then have a son **Aether** who marries his own sister Diēs, “Day.” **Caelus**, “Sky,” and Terra, “Earth,” are the son and daughter of Aether and Diēs. They too become each other’s spouses and produce numerous sons and daughters, almost all of whom marry one another.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Fabulae* is a Roman version or interpretation of Greek myths, with the Greek names more or less swapped out for Roman ones. Hyginus’ theogony differs on various points from the much more ancient text actually entitled *Theogony* written by Hesiod. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Caligine, the thick mist of darkness from which Chaos emerged, does not seem to correspond to any very obvious Greek counterpart, but Chaos = Khaos; Erebus = Erebos; Nox = Nyx; Aether = Aither; Diēs = Hemera; Caelus is Ouranos [Uranus]; and Terra is Gaia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Hesiod’s *Theogony*, Erebos, Nyx and Gaia are born out of Khaos, or they simply emerge afterwards from the same universal nothingness that at first engenders Khaos. Gaia then gives birth to Ouranos and to Pontos (the Sea), and she consorts with both of these sons of hers. Hesiod’s and Hyginus’s accounts of the children of Ouranos/Caelus and Gaia/Terra correspond fairly closely from this point on in the shared chronology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ouranos and Gaia had twelve children called the Titans, six male and six female. Of the six male Titans the only one who did not marry a female Titan is **Kreios** [Crius], who married his own half-sister Eurybia, a daughter of Pontos and Gaia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Each of the rest married a full-sister of his own, specifically: **Okeanos** [Oceanus] married Tethys; **Koios** [Coeus] married Phoibe [Phoebe], **Hyperion** married Theia; **Iapetos** married Themis (although there are versions in which Iapetos’ wife was his own niece, a daughter of Okeanos); and **Kronos** [Cronus] married Rhea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sea-god **Phorkys** [Phorcys], a son of Pontos and Gaia, married his own sister, the sea monster Keto [Ceto]. They are best known as the parents of the Gorgon Medusa.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The river **Inakhos** [Inachus], a son of Okeanos, married his own sister Melia. One of Zeus’s earliest consorts Io, the mother of Epaphos, was one of their children.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Zeus**, the king of the gods, was a son of Kronos and Rhea. According to Hesiod’s *Theogony*, he was married six times to different relatives (almost all cousins and aunts) of his before settling down with his seventh wife Hera, who was his own full-sister. The fourth in the series of wives, Demeter, was also a full-sister of his (as per Lines 912-914). It is from their union that Persephone, who grows up to marry her uncle **Hades**, is born. In [the Orphic version of this story](https://books.google.com/books?id=FQ2pAK9luwkC&amp;pg=PA331) (as alluded to by Daniel Ogden in *Drakon: Dragon Myth and Serpent Cult*), Zeus’s mother Rhea threatens Zeus in the form of a dragon. Zeus likewise transforms into a dragon in retaliation and rapes Rhea, who is mystically identified with Demeter. It is in this fashion that Persephone is produced, who is thus, actually, a half-sister (as well as a niece) of her husband Hades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus had a son named Tantalos [Tantalus] whose mother was a nymph named Plouto [Pluto]. According to Hyginus, Plouto’s father was called Himas. The Scholia on Euripides’ *Orestes* and on Pindar’s *Olympian Ode* 3 say that Plouto’s father was either a certain Himantes or the Titan Kronos. It might be that Himas and Himantes are names of Kronos. In his [encyclopaedia article](http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NymphePlouto.html) of the Plouto personage, Aaron Atsma notes the following:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Nonnus appears to identify Plouto with the Phrygian goddess&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kybele (Cybele), attaching the Kybelian epithet Berekyntia to her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; name. Indeed, Mount Sipylos, the home of Plouto, was a well-known cult&#xD;&#xA;&gt; centre of Kybele.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;One ancient scholiast calls Plouto a daughter of Kronos (Cronus)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; clearly identifying her with Demeter, the goddess of agricultural&#xD;&#xA;&gt; prosperity (*plouton*). Demeter was also sometimes identified by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greeks with the Asian Kybele.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;An Okeanis Nymphe named Plouto also appears in the lists of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hesiod. It is unclear if she was connected with Plouto the mother of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tantalos.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his *Dionysiaka*, Nonnus calls Plouto the bride of Zeus, implying a marital union at some point in time between Zeus and Plouto. If Plouto is to indeed be understood as Kronos’ daughter, then she would have been Zeus's sister (or at least half-sister) as well as his wife.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his *Bibliotheka Historika*, Diodorus Siculus says that **Iasion**, son of Zeus and Elektra, was married to Kybele. Pausanias says that Kybele was the daughter of the Phrygian sky-god Dios, whom he calls Zeus, by the earth-goddess, whom he identifies with Gaia. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Quintus Smyrnaeus’ *Fall of Troy* cites Enyo, a sort of female version of **Ares**, as the sister of this war-god. The associations between Ares and Enyo may be intended merely as symbolic but certain hints among them imply that they were married to each other. Enyalios is either the son of Ares and Enyo or is merely a title of Ares.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At different points in time, Ares’ brother the fire-god **Hephaistos** [Hephaestus] was married to two half-sisters of his. The first is the love-goddess Aphrodite, daughter of Zeus and Dione (although there is a more dramatic version of her origin, in which she sort of doesn’t have any parents). After the divorce between Hephaistos and Aphrodite, the fire-god married one of Aphrodite’s sidekicks, Aglaia, who was one of the three Kharites [Charites], “Graces,” daughters of Zeus and Eurynome. Hephaistos himself was either the son of Zeus and Hera, or Hera gave birth to him without the assistance of male seed. In the latter instance, then, he would be the brother of neither Aphrodite nor Aglaia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Aphareus** was the son of Perieres (son of Aiolos [Aeolus], son of Hellen, son of Deukalion [Deucalion], son of Prometheus, son of Iapetos) by Gorgophone, daughter of Perseus the Gorgon-Slayer. After his father’s death, Aphareus’ mother Gorgophone became, according to Pausanias’ [*Description of Greece* 2.21.7](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Paus.+2.21.7), the first woman ever to remarry. Arene was the daughter of Gorgophone by her new husband Oibalos [Oebalus]. When they had grown up, Aphareus got married to his half-sister Arene. Idas and Lynkeus [Lynceus], who became notorious as rivals of their kinsmen the Dioskouroi [Dioscuri], were the sons of Aphareus and Arene. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Herakles**, the son of Zeus by Alkmene (a niece of Gorgophone), after he died and became a god on Mt Olympos [Olympus], was married to his own half-sister Hebe, a daughter of Zeus and Hera." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17196" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5144" RevisionGUID="21b3c28b-5ed8-4e4c-8ad6-55469680fb99" CreationDate="2018-10-06T16:42:41.067" UserId="5426" Text="The 3113 BCE date comes from the Classic Maya calendar. According to the ancient Maya, the current baktun, or creation period, started on August 11, 3113 BC, written in the Maya calendar system as  0.0.0.0.0 4 Ajaw 8 Kumku. The date and its significance are explained in the inscriptions of Palenque, Mexico, and Quirigua, Guatemala. It looks like someone is borrowing from the Maya to date the start of the Aztec First Sun. In fact, the Aztecs did not date the start of the First Sun in any form that modern scholars can recognize." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17197" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5145" RevisionGUID="62e959d6-832e-413e-a6ec-df59a0d6c9b8" CreationDate="2018-10-06T17:05:25.770" UserId="3530" Text="According to the legend about this preserved or invented by the ancient poet Homer, recorded in his epic poem 'the Odyssey', these events occurred at a time when the Greeks were illiterate and by our standards somewhere in between civilization and barbarism. There was no regular army, written law, police force or independent judiciary to enforce it. Every able bodied man had to be personally ready to fight to defend that which was his from anyone else who might want to take it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Basically, might was right, although the mighty might be somewhat constrained by customary ideas of what was right and fear of consequences if their conduct offended  gods or men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The word 'soldiers' in the question details I normally take to imply members of an organised professional or semi-professional standing army owing allegiance to the ruler. There was nothing like that in Homer's Greece.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hence unless Odysseus had sufficient powerful friends and relatives left behind in Ithaca willing to risk their own lives to take on the numerous wooers, it was down to him to come back and do it himself." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17198" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5146" RevisionGUID="63c8aa9a-2f5c-49b0-8c16-56faf6933733" CreationDate="2018-10-06T17:43:38.753" UserId="3530" Text="In the Trojan War in Greek Mythology the Greeks spent 10 years fighting to capture Troy, because the Trojan Prince Paris had stolen the Greek King Menelaus' beautiful wife Helen. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally when the Trojans thought the war was over the Greeks sneaked back, catching the Trojans completely by surprise and unprepared with the famous wooden horse trick, slayed all the Trojan men without mercy and destroyed their city, and took Helen back. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Helen then resumed living with King Menelaus, apparently not too bothered to have caused the deaths of thousands of warriors on both sides during the war and of the entire adult male population of Troy and the destruction of the city at the end of it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was it open to the Trojans to save their lives and city throughout the 10 previous years of the war by giving Helen back? If so, why didn't they? Were they just stupidly proud and stubborn, or what?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17199" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5146" RevisionGUID="63c8aa9a-2f5c-49b0-8c16-56faf6933733" CreationDate="2018-10-06T17:43:38.753" UserId="3530" Text="Was it open to the Trojans to give Helen back and be safe? Why didn't they?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17200" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5146" RevisionGUID="63c8aa9a-2f5c-49b0-8c16-56faf6933733" CreationDate="2018-10-06T17:43:38.753" UserId="3530" Text="|greek|trojan-war|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17201" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5147" RevisionGUID="434dd617-4f56-4f9a-b59a-afa781950397" CreationDate="2018-10-09T06:06:19.453" UserId="5431" Text="In the Judeo-Christian tradition there are people of Divine Insight who do evil, such as the Diviner [Balaam][1]. &#xA;&#xA;I'm wondering if there are Greco-Roman examples like this, especially regarding the Sibyls?&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balaam" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17202" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5147" RevisionGUID="434dd617-4f56-4f9a-b59a-afa781950397" CreationDate="2018-10-09T06:06:19.453" UserId="5431" Text="Are there Evil Sybils or Diviners in Greco-Roman Tradition?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17203" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5147" RevisionGUID="434dd617-4f56-4f9a-b59a-afa781950397" CreationDate="2018-10-09T06:06:19.453" UserId="5431" Text="|greek|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17204" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5148" RevisionGUID="3410f76b-b15d-430d-92b1-4ce10b414e3a" CreationDate="2018-10-10T04:11:03.153" UserId="2774" Text="[Note] **My time for any answer is somehow so scarce that it will take me a couple of days and edits to manage to finish it... Sorry for this major inconvenience** [/Note]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is very rare to have questions related to the Indus valley civilization. Note that: Stack is about having answers from experts on a subject. While I doubt there is factually any experts frequenting this mythology section, which is sad, I would like first to mention my knowledge of the Indus valley is one of a &quot;general voracious reader&quot; and certainly not one of an expert.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tombs&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first we can look at are tombs, and this will be enlighting. At the time of the Indus valley civilization there are :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Egyptians building their pyramids (2500BC for the one of Gyzeah, roughly the equivalent of the beginning of the Indus valley), later they will build the valley of the king during the New Kingdom. It is also very clear they used mummification during all their history. Mummies are quite common during the Ptolemaic time, while certainly of low-quality mummification was still quite present. The tomb of Tutankhamun is giving a very clear idea of the richness buried with the dead kings. Notice also you can have heard here and there about curses places in those tombs. This is due to the fact even during the Egyptian time, rampaging the tomb was quite common, numerous Egyptian stories are reporting them and Herodotus himself mentioned such a story.&#xD;&#xA; - Mesopotamians also used quite elaborate tombs. As I imagine people are less familiar with Mesopotamia than Egypt let's see what Leonard Woolley describe when he discovered the death pit of Ur: *Six men-servants carrying knives and axes lay near the entrance, lined up against the wall; in front of them stood a great copper basin, and by it were the bodies of 4 women harpists, on with her hands still on the strings of her instruments.* You can read the rest of the text from the full thrilling description. Notice the people who obviously send their king with his whole court to the afterlife are the same one who wrote Bilgames and the underworld and the Death of Bilgames. Which is even more thrilling. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now let's compare with the kind of tomb we find in the Indus valley, the comparison is stunning. This is a description given by Jonathan Mark Kenoyer: Precious metals, gold and valuable stone beads were generally kept in circulation among the living, while only the most essential personal objects were buried with the dead: *shell bangles, beads with eye designs, steatite disc beads and mirrors. As a whole, the burial customs further reinforce the importance of ornaments and public symbols to define social and ritual status among the living* Basically let's translate that with this: In the Indus valley, they buried their dead with trinkets and trifles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Comparing the Egyptians, the Mesopotamians and the Harappan burial rites is I hope enlighting enough. The population of the Indus valley is definitely not the one who will later build the Taj Mahal. We are not facing the stupendous tomb of Egypt or the thrilling slaughter of a whole court of Ur. Just dead buried with occasional trinkets (bangs and bead necklace, occasional potteries)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17205" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5149" RevisionGUID="0408a054-5037-413b-ac27-954aedfbc895" CreationDate="2018-10-10T04:19:09.420" UserId="467" Text="Many goddesses are associated with pigs, mostly because of their fertility. For example, the pig was sacred to Isis, and the Greeks sacrificed pigs to Demeter, and also in sacrificial rituals at certain Attic festivals. But I don't recall pigs being associated with the Canaanite goddesses, such as Asherah, Anat, or Astarte. (I'm checking this in connection with the Israelite prohibition on eating pork.) Does anyone know of Canaanite myths or legends in which pigs are associated with their goddesses?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17206" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5149" RevisionGUID="0408a054-5037-413b-ac27-954aedfbc895" CreationDate="2018-10-10T04:19:09.420" UserId="467" Text="Are Canaanite Goddesses Associated with Pigs?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17207" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5149" RevisionGUID="0408a054-5037-413b-ac27-954aedfbc895" CreationDate="2018-10-10T04:19:09.420" UserId="467" Text="|goddesses|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17208" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1816" RevisionGUID="46592d90-387e-496d-bd10-6bfa5cb6ff16" CreationDate="2018-10-10T17:47:01.767" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="**Amurru**, an Amorite deity often referred to as a storm-god, is depicted on ancient cylinder seals carrying a curved object called, in Akkadian, a *gamlu*, which is generally interpreted as a shepherd's crook, e.g. by writers such as Henri Frankfort (in his 1939 book *Cylinder Seals: A Documentary Essay on the Art and Religion of the Ancient Near East*), Aïcha Rahmouni (in her 2008 book *Divine Epithets in the Ugaritic Alphabetic Texts*) and Joshua J. Mark (on the website [Ancient.eu](https://www.ancient.eu/article/221/the-mesopotamian-pantheon/)).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Several Egyptian gods commonly appear carrying a shepherd's crook, which, together with a flail, indicates them as royalty: the &quot;shepherds of the people.&quot; Two of these deities, **Ra** and **Ausar** (whom the Greek called Osiris), are believed to have been among the earliest kings of Egypt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In late Pharaonic Egypt, Ra was merged with Ausar's son and heir Heru (Horus) to form **Ra-Harakhte**, &quot;Ra Who is Heru of the Two Horizons.&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;[![Ra-Harakhte][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Here Djedkhonsuiwesankh, the daughter of a priest, makes offerings to him as he sits enthroned, carrying the crook and flail.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps the best-known deity to wield the shepherd's crook is Ausar (pictured below), the ruler of the dead and of the otherworld which they inhabited.  &#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;A very ancient god, named **Andjety**, from a place called Andjet in Egypt, may have been an earlier form of Ausar. He too carried a shepherd's crook.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Egyptian moon-god **Khonsu** also bore the crook and flail.  &#xD;&#xA;[![Khonsu][3]][3] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Pan**, the Greek god of flocks and shepherds, is portrayed holding a shepherd's crook.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Pan with Goat][4]][4]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Pan with Goat, at British Museum&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Pan in Dionysos' Retinue][5]][5]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Hoofed Pan from Roman sarcophagus depicting Dionysos' triumphal procession through India&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Gaeeus**, a minor Libyan sea-god who may have been a marine shepherd, also wields this implement. His name seems to mean &quot;Gaia's&quot; (*Of the Earth*).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Gaeeus &amp; Pherusa][6]][6]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Gaaeus (far left) with the Nereid Pherusa, in mosaic from Roman Antioch&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A Phrygian vegetation deity whom the Greeks called [**Attis**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attis) is depicted in a life-size statue of him which was found at Ostia, outside Rome. The image is holding a shepherd's crook in its left hand.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/qhQkg.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/IsB7a.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ngHFh.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/OPCm6.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/3lOon.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/kaoR2.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17209" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5148" RevisionGUID="66544b63-40b1-4fd4-8a8d-8ca810a72096" CreationDate="2018-10-11T04:00:05.483" UserId="2774" Comment="Added a small chapter on architecture" Text="[Note] **My time for any answer is somehow so scarce that it will take me a couple of days and edits to manage to finish it... Sorry for this major inconvenience** [/Note]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is very rare to have questions related to the Indus valley civilization. Note that: Stack is about having answers from experts on a subject. While I doubt there is factually any experts frequenting this mythology section, which is sad, I would like first to mention my knowledge of the Indus valley is one of a &quot;general voracious reader&quot; and certainly not one of an expert.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tombs&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first we can look at are tombs, and this will be enlighting. At the time of the Indus valley civilization there are :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Egyptians building their pyramids (2500BC for the one of Gyzeah, roughly the equivalent of the beginning of the Indus valley), later they will build the valley of the king during the New Kingdom. It is also very clear they used mummification during all their history. Mummies are quite common during the Ptolemaic time, while certainly of low-quality mummification was still quite present. The tomb of Tutankhamun is giving a very clear idea of the richness buried with the dead kings. Notice also you can have heard here and there about curses places in those tombs. This is due to the fact even during the Egyptian time, rampaging the tomb was quite common, numerous Egyptian stories are reporting them and Herodotus himself mentioned such a story.&#xD;&#xA; - Mesopotamians also used quite elaborate tombs. As I imagine people are less familiar with Mesopotamia than Egypt let's see what Leonard Woolley describe when he discovered the death pit of Ur: *Six men-servants carrying knives and axes lay near the entrance, lined up against the wall; in front of them stood a great copper basin, and by it were the bodies of 4 women harpists, on with her hands still on the strings of her instruments.* You can read the rest of the text from the full thrilling description. Notice the people who obviously send their king with his whole court to the afterlife are the same one who wrote Bilgames and the underworld and the Death of Bilgames. Which is even more thrilling. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now let's compare with the kind of tomb we find in the Indus valley, the comparison is stunning. This is a description given by Jonathan Mark Kenoyer: Precious metals, gold and valuable stone beads were generally kept in circulation among the living, while only the most essential personal objects were buried with the dead: *shell bangles, beads with eye designs, steatite disc beads and mirrors. As a whole, the burial customs further reinforce the importance of ornaments and public symbols to define social and ritual status among the living* Basically let's translate that with this: In the Indus valley, they buried their dead with trinkets and trifles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Comparing the Egyptians, the Mesopotamians and the Harappan burial rites is I hope enlighting enough. The population of the Indus valley is definitely not the one who will later build the Taj Mahal. We are not facing the stupendous tomb of Egypt or the thrilling slaughter of a whole court of Ur. Just dead buried with occasional trinkets (bangs and bead necklace, occasional potteries).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Palaces and Temples&#xD;&#xA;-------------------&#xD;&#xA;The second point that is interesting to investigate are palaces and temples. They define religion for temples and power for palaces, and sometimes the relationship between both.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Egypt: The pinnacle of Egyptian palaces and temples are during the New Kingdom, especially during the Ramsesides, but it is a general trend of Egyptians throughout their history to be quite devoted architects and builders. Noticeable are colonnades, wall painting, and carving, giants statues. A little look at Google can help.&#xD;&#xA; - Mesopotamia: While some of the marvels of Mesopotamia vanished in time we still have the wonderful Ziggurats, the trach of some of the huge palaces, and even the idea that in Babylon there could have been some suspended garden that more than impressed the Greeks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now... the comparison with the Indus Valley is also quite impressive. First, the Harappans are definitely fine builders, they built cities and extremely functional one. We even know that their general water work is on par with the much later Roman one.&#xD;&#xA;The Indus civilization was discovered with the city of Harappa (hence their name, Harappan) in 1924, by John Marshall and here is his description of brick working: &quot;The bricks alone remain — myriads on myriads of them — but not &#xD;&#xA;one of them is moulded or chiselled or shaped in such wise as to give a hint of any architectural design. Nor do we get any help in this matter from drawings or reliefs or models of buildings among the minor antiquities.&quot; Let's translate Marshall: they are taking the time to build backed bricks which is time and resource consuming but the bricks are... not impressive in their final shape.&#xD;&#xA;The second point to notice is at this stage no palace, no temple has been unearthed. We still have on huge construction, the Great Bath of Moheno-jaro.&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;That is their best construction and while it is surely an impressive structure in size and craftsmanship, notice: no statue, no wall carving, no trace of any painting. Worst for us is we have no real clue of what the function of this building was exactly. Even Wikipedia is dancing on his foot on that matter&quot;Most scholars agree that this tank would have been used for special religious functions where water was used to purify and renew the well being of the bathers.&quot; Notice the quote used, and the quote using &quot;would have been&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;So the second place where we can find clues of the religion and cult practices of the Indus Valley is once again letting us down. At most are we amazed about the absence of any notorious cultic place. let's quote Marshall : &quot;That is the impression produced by the wide expanse of bare red brick structures, devoid of any semblance of ornament and bearing in every feature the mark of stark utilitarianism&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/zLN3D.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17210" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5133" RevisionGUID="09d67a11-551c-47d1-89db-4c08daaffba4" CreationDate="2018-10-11T04:41:55.937" UserId="3293" Comment="edited title" Text="Indus valley or Harrapan civilization myths/beliefs" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17211" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5150" RevisionGUID="d29b1f86-f67d-44b0-8bd9-5e77ded08c57" CreationDate="2018-10-11T08:38:40.777" UserId="108" Text="This image depicts the `toko wananga`, stick-like representations of &quot;departmental gods&quot; used at the `whare wananga`, i.e. Maori schools. According to White, who was commissioned by the New Zealand government to compile this information, the sticks are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [**Tumatauenga**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C5%ABmatauenga): perfectly straight to represent how Tu &quot;stood erect . . . at the deluge&quot;&#xD;&#xA; - [**Tawhirimatea**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C4%81whirim%C4%81tea), god of the weather: shaped like a corkscrew, to represent &quot;the whirling of the winds and clouds&quot;&#xD;&#xA; - [**Tane**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C4%81ne), god of the forest: a semicircular bend representing the &quot;swelling and growth of bulbs, shrubs, and tree&quot;&#xD;&#xA; - [**Tangaroa**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangaroa), god of the sea: a zigzag shape representing &quot;the waves of the sea&quot;&#xD;&#xA; - [**Rongo**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rongo), god of cultivation: the rounded curves representing how the [kumara](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweet_potato#New_Zealand) &quot;raised the earth in little mounds&quot; as it grows&#xD;&#xA; - [**Huamia**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haumia-tiketike), god of uncultivated plants: three semicircular bends representing the &quot;irregular and twisted form of the fern-root when newly dug up&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In addition, Maori godsticks also refers to the `tiki wananga`. These are characterised by a carved head, the `tiki`, on a wooden shaft with a pointed end. These were used by priests for various religious rites, either held in hand or staked into the ground to form a temporary shrine. A typical example thus looks quite different from the above sticks:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]    &#xD;&#xA;*&lt;sup&gt;Source: the collection of the [Minneapolis Art Institute](https://collections.artsmia.org/art/172/godstick-maori)&lt;/sup&gt;*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Such godsticks were regarded as a medium for channeling a spirit, not an idol in and of themselves. Identification of depicted deities is the same as with other Maori carvings or art - and thus similarly difficult due to a lack of surviving knowledge as well as tribal differences in art styles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/JVygZ.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17215" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5152" RevisionGUID="716218d8-fc48-4f23-b513-1baebe3ab94f" CreationDate="2018-10-11T16:53:07.193" UserId="5441" Text="How was Taweret created? Is there a creation story, or was she just the child of two gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17216" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5152" RevisionGUID="716218d8-fc48-4f23-b513-1baebe3ab94f" CreationDate="2018-10-11T16:53:07.193" UserId="5441" Text="What is the creation story of Taweret?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17217" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5152" RevisionGUID="716218d8-fc48-4f23-b513-1baebe3ab94f" CreationDate="2018-10-11T16:53:07.193" UserId="5441" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17221" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5149" RevisionGUID="b2960a17-9967-4752-a890-dd868ce8cc7a" CreationDate="2018-10-12T11:52:05.633" UserId="467" Comment="added 9 characters in body" Text="Many goddesses are associated with pigs, mostly because of their fertility. For example, the pig was sacred to Isis, and the Greeks sacrificed pigs to Demeter, and also in sacrificial rituals at certain Attic festivals. But I don't recall pigs being associated in myths with the Canaanite goddesses, such as Asherah, Anat, or Astarte. (I'm checking this in connection with the Israelite prohibition on eating pork.) Does anyone know of Canaanite myths or legends in which pigs are associated with their goddesses?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17222" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5154" RevisionGUID="82f0e67f-1d97-430a-aea9-3951d44a0a4a" CreationDate="2018-10-12T12:32:19.640" UserId="5445" Text="(cross posting from hinduism.SE. Hope this is OK)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Related to [this][1] question though much more specific: are there any clues we can glean about the historical situation of the Battle of Ten Kings relative to the Ramayana or other well known events? Maybe through genealogies etc?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/13747/timeline-of-the-battle-of-the-ten-kings-in-the-vedas" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17223" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5154" RevisionGUID="82f0e67f-1d97-430a-aea9-3951d44a0a4a" CreationDate="2018-10-12T12:32:19.640" UserId="5445" Text="Dating the Battle of Ten Kings relative to the Ramayana and Mahabharata" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17224" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5154" RevisionGUID="82f0e67f-1d97-430a-aea9-3951d44a0a4a" CreationDate="2018-10-12T12:32:19.640" UserId="5445" Text="|hindu|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17225" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5155" RevisionGUID="1ca1476f-c2cc-4e7e-8589-be92f9379ce7" CreationDate="2018-10-12T14:37:33.337" UserId="5447" Text="Jotuns and Ettins are the same things (the J makes the Y sound, so Jotuns becomes Eotenas, then Ettins). They are giants, but not entirely humanoid. Some are huge birds, some have vulture or wolf heads, some are firey, etc. 'Giant' and 'Frost Giant' are translations of Jotun (or also Thurs and Risi). As for trolls, they are sort of Jotuns. Most probably they are from an older legendarium, from which probably came the Vanir and dwarfs and elves. It then overlapped with the new one of Aesir, Jotuns, and etc. Trolls are creatures of the wilderness, like Huldrefolk, and in fact they often have a Hulder or Hulderskall as their leader." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17229" PostHistoryTypeId="36" PostId="5157" RevisionGUID="54604645-0679-43a5-ba6e-dabb83427467" CreationDate="2018-10-13T00:00:08.077" UserId="-1" Comment="from https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/48671/any-ancient-myths-folklore-tales-narratives-etc-about-extraterrestrial-voyages" />
  <row Id="17230" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5157" RevisionGUID="109428c6-3d57-4d9f-9f04-b7cba9a26703" CreationDate="2018-10-12T21:43:37.307" UserDisplayName="Dominic the inquisitive" Text="Stories like the tale of the bamboo cutter that are about extraterrestrial beings who visit earth and either return to their place of origin or not. They can also be about people from earth visiting the moon or other planets and either returning or not returning to earth. Are there any except the one already mentioned and Lucian's True Story?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: you can suggest books that talk about such stories if you want." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17231" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5157" RevisionGUID="109428c6-3d57-4d9f-9f04-b7cba9a26703" CreationDate="2018-10-12T21:43:37.307" UserDisplayName="Dominic the inquisitive" Text="Any ancient myths/folklore/tales/narratives/etc. about extraterrestrial voyages/people/beings?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17232" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5157" RevisionGUID="109428c6-3d57-4d9f-9f04-b7cba9a26703" CreationDate="2018-10-12T21:43:37.307" UserDisplayName="Dominic the inquisitive" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17233" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5158" RevisionGUID="d7f0060f-9769-48b5-b8ac-e1c3bff90aff" CreationDate="2018-10-13T01:40:51.103" UserId="5450" Text="The moral of the story is life is a gift, and maintaining a balance with everything in moderation will ensure a long one. The wings represent the father giving his son life; the ocean and the sun represent the extremes of denying  and overindulging yourself; flying in between is the answer. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17237" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5160" RevisionGUID="e1f5dcc1-9cce-4e21-954e-c4d3dcbf96ba" CreationDate="2018-10-13T04:53:40.770" UserId="3293" Text="There are many example of myth/folklore about people for &quot;space/another planet&quot; coming to earth. Examples: Nordic, Hoppi, Aztec, Buddhism, Judaism, sumerian, Egyptian, american Indians, primitive african cultures, etc, etc  A simple google search will produce many. This question is way too broad for a good answer&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17238" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5161" RevisionGUID="3a865c91-8d81-49c2-9f86-37a56faaaac6" CreationDate="2018-10-13T18:08:32.430" UserId="5229" Text="For the most part there is no association between Canaanite gods and pigs. Canaanites, like Israelites, didn't eat pigs, which weren't indigenous to the land. In fact, archaeologists often take pig bones as a sign that a settlement was Philistine (see for example [this paper](http://archaeology.tau.ac.il/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/faust-and-lev-tov-2011-Philistine-identity.pdf)). So pigs don't make many appearances in Canaanite myth either.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there is one myth that might give a kind of link. In the Greek myth of [Adonis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adonis), Adonis was a lover of Aphrodite who was killed by a wild boar, culminating with Aphrodite's mourning over him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This myth is [thought to have come from Phoenicia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adonis#Origin_of_the_cult) (his name comes from the Canaanite word * *ʼadōn*, master). I don't believe there is any extant retelling of the Canaanite myth, but Lucian's *[The Syrian Goddess](https://archive.org/details/syriangoddessbei00luciuoft/page/44)* has a description of the rites of Adonis performed at Byblos in Phoenicia. Here is part of the description most relevant to the myth:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;They assert that the legend about Adonis and the wild boar is true, and that the facts occurred in their country, and in memory of this calamity they beat their breasts and wail every year, and perform their secret ritual amid signs of mourning through the whole countryside. When they have finished their mourning and wailing, they sacrifice in the first place to Adonis, as to one who has departed this life: after this they allege that he is alive again, and exhibit his effigy to the sky. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is said to have taken place in a temple sacred to the Byblian Aphrodite ([Astarte](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astarte), the Ashtoreth of the Bible). So it seems there was a Canaanite story in which a boar kills Astarte's lover, Adonis." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17242" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5157" RevisionGUID="e359a023-ded7-4fdd-8a2b-b7b6d425e68e" CreationDate="2018-10-15T02:17:16.750" UserDisplayName="user5459" Comment="edited title" Text="Any ancient myths/folklore/tales/etc. about extraterrestrial voyages/people/beings?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17243" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5163" RevisionGUID="f08530d8-1083-44e3-9a60-a6be30eb8ef2" CreationDate="2018-10-15T07:53:29.423" UserId="5460" Text="The 'don't eat pig meat' thing was introduced in their culture as a tabu as a consequence  of the illnesses provoked by consumption of pigs meat raised in improper conditions, improper meat preparation and improper handling and storage(it was very hot and in max. two hours from sacrificing a pig bad germs start developing). There is why the consumption was forbidden and  this idea was incapsulated in myths and especial in religious beliefs.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17244" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5146" RevisionGUID="4f48e201-c0c1-4a87-b7b4-296b6dddd2b7" CreationDate="2018-10-15T08:56:45.230" UserId="108" Comment="edited title" Text="Was it an option for the Trojans to give Helen back? Why didn't they?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17247" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5164" RevisionGUID="2b9710e1-285c-4ded-ba6b-ade418def86a" CreationDate="2018-10-15T12:56:55.747" UserId="108" Text="Yes, the Trojans could have surrendered Helen to avoid war. Before the fighting began, an embassy composed of Menelaus and Odyssey was dispatched to Troy demanding the return of Helen. This the subject of [Sophocles'](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophocles#Fragmentary_plays) now lost *Helenes Apaitesis*, and referenced during the *Iliad* by [Antenor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antenor_(mythology)) (who hosted the Greeks) and [Agamemnon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agamemnon). Evidently, Priam rejected the demand.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Elsewhere in the *Iliad*, Paris actually proposed a duel with Menelaus to end the war, and this was accepted by the Greeks. As Agamemnon vowed:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; If Alexandrus kills Menelaus, let him keep Helen and all her wealth,&#xD;&#xA;while we sail home with our ships; but if Menelaus kills Alexandrus,&#xD;&#xA;let the Trojans give back Helen and all that she has; let them moreover&#xD;&#xA;pay such fine to the Achaeans as shall be agreed upon, in testimony&#xD;&#xA;among those that shall be born hereafter.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;The Iliad, Book III&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Menelaus won the duel, though Aphrodite spirited Paris away before the killing blow. All indications were that if Helen was then returned to Menelaus, the war would be ended. However, the truce was then broken by the Trojans at the instigation of Athena, with the result that fighting resumed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's no single reason for why the Trojans refused to surrender Helen - not all Trojans were of one mind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One reason would be Helen's beauty. Several of the wisest elders of Troy actually believed they *should* return Helen to Menelaus, but find it a matter of course that the Trojans would fight to keep such beauty:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When they saw Helen coming towards the tower, they said softly to one another, &quot;Small wonder that Trojans and Achaeans should endure so much and so long, for the sake of a woman so marvellously and divinely lovely. Still, fair though she be, let them take her and go, or she will breed sorrow for us and for our children after us.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Likewise, this is obviously Paris' motivation, and he bribed other Trojans into supporting him in keeping Helen:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It was Antimachus who had been foremost in preventing&#xD;&#xA;Helen's being restored to Menelaus, for he was largely bribed by Alexandrus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Secondly, both Priam, the King, and Hector, the greatest hero of Troy, appears to genuinely cared for Helen. As Helen mourned at Hector's funeral,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  &quot;Hector,&quot; said she, &quot;dearest of all my brothers-in-law . . . I have never heard one word of insult or unkindness from you. When another would chide with me, as it might be one of your brothers or sisters or of your brothers' wives, or my mother-in-law - for Priam was as kind to me as though he were my own father - you would rebuke and check them with words of gentleness and goodwill.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, Priam might have had the additional motivation of revenge. Years before the Trojan War, the Greek hero [Heracles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heracles) sacked Troy and captured Priam's sister [Hesione](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesione). She was given to to [Telamon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telamon), father of Ajax and Teucer. At some point prior to Paris' seduction of Helen, Priam requested the return of his sister but was rebuked.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the version told in the 13th century *Historia Troiana*, the Trojan ambassador Antenor, received a hostile reception from the Greek kings. In response, Priam sent an army to retrieve Heosine by force under the command of Paris, who diverted the army to seize Helen instead. It is  thus understandable if Priam give the Archaeans a taste of their own medicine." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17250" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5165" RevisionGUID="2d1e0750-c5ce-4759-9a04-bf39d9129e8d" CreationDate="2018-10-15T18:40:50.003" UserDisplayName="user4660" Text="The ancient Greeks of the classical and later periods thought that in the form of the myth of Icarus and Daedalus, the memory of the invention of [fore-and-aft rigged sails][1] was preserved - according to a common interpretation, Daedalus and Icarus escaped from Crete just on a ship with fore-and-aft rigged sails, which allow to use not only a tailwind, but also a side and even a headwind. Prior to this invention, only [square-rig sails][2] were used. Icarus during the voyage fell overboard and drowned.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source: [Икар (rus)][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fore-and-aft_rig&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_rig&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%98%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%80" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17252" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5167" RevisionGUID="96a994cc-08dc-4fd9-8f9c-a82db5c8d966" CreationDate="2018-10-15T22:03:02.483" UserId="5462" Text="Cronus tried to eat Zeus but was tricked into barfing him back up along with his brothers and sisters. Cronus did this because he wanted to stay king and thought that if he ate all the possible airs, he would stay king forever. Unfortunately for him, when Zeus was barfed back up, he waged war on Cronus for his throne for 10 years. When Zeus finally became king, he married his first of many wives, Intelligence (Metis). Metis was said to have 2 kids, one girls and one boy. The boy was said to  be powerful enough to overthrow Zeus one day, so under the instructions of Earth (Gaia), he tricked Metis into turning into a fly and ate her while she was pregnant with their first child. Athena was later birthed from Zeus skull but Zeus made sure that no one else could overthrow him for Metis was the only spouse capable of giving birth to such a powerful son. Long story short they eat their kids so that they can stay in power for as long as possible." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17258" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5026" RevisionGUID="04f9d3da-0d7c-4272-bec0-2493c6671d02" CreationDate="2018-10-17T23:45:22.600" UserId="4271" Comment="military correctness" Text="I was in a charms shop a while back and they had a section laid out for Celtic Mythology charms and their meanings. I had a look and found Thor's hammer. I ask my mom and she said the Mythologies are connected. I ignore this with my small mind, thinking, &quot;How?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then I get some money and took the family to Barns and Nobles. There I found a [Norse Mythology book][1] by Helen A. Guerber (I have yet to read it, but will when I get back from Basic Combat Training and AIT). I look at the cover and ask mom who it is. She looked and suggested the Green Man from Celtic Mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So I now ask, how are the two Mythologies connected/related/compared?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://images.gr-assets.com/books/1489656139l/34606688.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17261" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5170" RevisionGUID="d9b0f61f-93e0-4fcf-bf72-ddc246db81dd" CreationDate="2018-10-19T03:46:38.280" UserId="1317" Text="&lt;h2&gt;No.&lt;/h2&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From both an ancient philosophical approach, and one based on human nature, this was impossible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some of the answers cite the _Iliad_ to show some attempts to avert the ciry's destruction, but these were already doomed to fail. Priam decided not to give Helen back directly, and when Menelaus bested Paris in combat, the gods spirited him away.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact, this whole question incorrectly approaches the subject from a modern point of view  -- the ancient Greeks didn't think like that. The core of their philosophy was **[Fatalism](http://agroeh.blogspot.com/2011/11/moirae-and-graeae.html)**, or the belief that destiny (plus the whims of the gods) controlled events, and not men's actions. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The whole story of the Trojan War is imbued with the impossibility of avoiding fate. [Hecuba](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecuba)'s dream while carrying Paris, and its outcome, demonstrate this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The first son born to her was Hector; and when a second babe was about to be born Hecuba dreamed she had brought forth a firebrand, and that the fire spread over the whole city and burned it. When Priam learned of the dream from Hecuba, he sent for his son [Aesacus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesacus), for he was an interpreter of dreams, having been taught by his mother's father Merops. He declared that the child was begotten to be the ruin of his country and advised that the babe should be exposed. When the babe was born Priam gave it to a servant to take and expose on Ida; now the servant was named Agelaus. Exposed by him, the infant was nursed for five days by a bear; and, when he found it safe, he took it up, carried it away, brought it up as his own son on his farm, and named him [Paris](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_(mythology)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pseudo-Apollodorus, _[Bibliotheca](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliotheca_(Pseudo-Apollodorus))_, [3.12.5](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D3%3Achapter%3D12%3Asection%3D5)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The prophecy in Hecuba's dream is fulfilled, despite everyone's attempts to avoid it. Troy's destruction was assured by Paris's survival as an infant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After Achilles slays Hector, Hecuba makes direct reference to Fate while trying to persuade Priam from going to beg Achiiles for the body:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Let us then weep Hector from afar here in our own house, for **when I gave him birth the threads of overruling fate were spun for him that dogs should eat his flesh far from his parents**, in the house of that terrible man on whose liver I would fain fasten and devour it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;MIT Internet Classics Archive,  _Iliad_, [book 24](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.24.xxiv.html), 209, tr. Samuel Butler &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So let's leave mythology behind and treat the characters in the Iliad as real people, or at least the heroic archetypes Homer was depicting. On a level of human nature, the destruction of Troy was also inevitable. Even if Fate wasn't controlling everything, the Greeks and Trojans coulda help but make devisions that led to tje Citu's destruction.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although triggered by Paris's abduction of Helen, the Achaean expedition against Troy was a massive undertaking and they had a lot invested in it. Agamemnon in particular _sacrificed his own daughter Iphiginea_ to gain the favorable winds necessary to get to Troy. And it's clear that Helen was secondary to pride, glory, and booty -- thus the squabble between Achilles and Agamemnon over [Briseis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Briseis) prolonged the conflict and almost brought the Greeks to ruin. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When [Patroclus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patroclus) convinced Achilles to let him lead the Myrmidons against the Trojans about to overrun the Greek ships, Achilles advised Patroclus to do only that and come tight back. But of course Patroclus didn't do that -- instead, wearing Achilles's armor, he went on a wild rampage in the Trojan army until Apollo knocked the helmet off, allowing Euphorbus to kill him.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17262" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5170" RevisionGUID="1e44b449-27be-4278-9f25-a1166179706c" CreationDate="2018-10-19T03:56:28.413" UserId="1317" Comment="Minor typos and tablet keyboard fatfingers" Text="&lt;h2&gt;No.&lt;/h2&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From both an ancient philosophical approach, and one based on human nature, this was impossible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some of the answers cite the _Iliad_ to show some attempts to avert the ciry's destruction, but these were already doomed to fail. Priam decided not to give Helen back directly, and when Menelaus bested Paris in combat, the gods spirited him away.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact, this whole question incorrectly approaches the subject from a modern point of view  -- the ancient Greeks didn't think like that. The core of their philosophy was **[Fatalism](http://agroeh.blogspot.com/2011/11/moirae-and-graeae.html)**, or the belief that destiny (plus the whims of the gods) controlled events, and not men's actions. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The whole story of the Trojan War is imbued with the impossibility of avoiding fate. [Hecuba](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecuba)'s dream while carrying Paris, and its outcome, demonstrate this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The first son born to her was Hector; and when a second babe was about to be born Hecuba dreamed she had brought forth a firebrand, and that the fire spread over the whole city and burned it. When Priam learned of the dream from Hecuba, he sent for his son [Aesacus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesacus), for he was an interpreter of dreams, having been taught by his mother's father Merops. He declared that the child was begotten to be the ruin of his country and advised that the babe should be exposed. When the babe was born Priam gave it to a servant to take and expose on Ida; now the servant was named Agelaus. Exposed by him, the infant was nursed for five days by a bear; and, when he found it safe, he took it up, carried it away, brought it up as his own son on his farm, and named him [Paris](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_(mythology)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pseudo-Apollodorus, _[Bibliotheca](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliotheca_(Pseudo-Apollodorus))_, [3.12.5](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D3%3Achapter%3D12%3Asection%3D5), Tr. Sir James George Fraser&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The prophecy in Hecuba's dream is fulfilled, despite everyone's attempts to avoid it. Troy's destruction was assured by Paris's survival as an infant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After Achilles slays Hector, Hecuba makes direct reference to Fate while trying to persuade Priam from going to beg Achilles for the body:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Let us then weep Hector from afar here in our own house, for **when I gave him birth the threads of overruling fate were spun for him that dogs should eat his flesh far from his parents**, in the house of that terrible man on whose liver I would fain fasten and devour it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;MIT Internet Classics Archive,  _Iliad_, [book 24](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.24.xxiv.html), 209, tr. Samuel Butler &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So let's leave mythology behind and treat the characters in the Iliad as real people, or at least the heroic archetypes Homer was depicting. On a level of human nature, the destruction of Troy was also inevitable. Even if Fate wasn't controlling everything, the Greeks and Trojans couldn't help but make devisions that led to the city's destruction.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although triggered by Paris's abduction of Helen, the Achaean expedition against Troy was a massive undertaking and they had a lot invested in it. Agamemnon in particular _sacrificed his own daughter Iphiginea_ to gain the favorable winds necessary to get to Troy. And it's clear that Helen was secondary to pride, glory, and booty -- thus the squabble between Achilles and Agamemnon over [Briseis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Briseis) prolonged the conflict and almost brought the Greeks to ruin. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When [Patroclus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patroclus) convinced Achilles to let him lead the Myrmidons against the Trojans about to overrun the Greek ships, Achilles advised Patroclus to do only that and come tight back. But of course Patroclus didn't do that -- instead, wearing Achilles's armor, he went on a wild rampage in the Trojan army until Apollo knocked the helmet off, allowing Euphorbus to kill him.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17273" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5174" RevisionGUID="7d95cd0f-82a4-4f5d-8595-435d9b8a18a2" CreationDate="2018-10-20T20:58:35.027" UserId="5475" Text="Here on the first page of Sir James G Frazer’s “The Golden Bough” is a descrption of a Goddess habitant on the shores of a lake in Northern Italy near La Riccia. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“1.—The Arician Grove.&#xD;&#xA;Who does not know Turner's picture of the Golden Bough? The scene, suffused with the”golden glow of imagination in which the divine mind of Turner steeped and transfigured even the fairest natural landscape, is a dream-like vision of the little woodland lake of Nemi, “Diana's Mirror,” as it was called by the ancients. No one who has seen that calm water, lapped in a green hollow of the Alban hills, can ever forget it. The two characteristic Italian villages which slumber on its banks, and the equally Italian palazzo whose terraced gardens descend steeply to the lake, hardly break the stillness and even the solitariness of the scene. Dian herself might still linger by this lonely shore, still haunt these woodlands wild.&#xD;&#xA;In antiquity this sylvan landscape was the scene of a strange and recurring tragedy. On the northern shore of the lake, right under the precipitous cliffs on which the modern village of Nemi is perched, stood the sacred grove and sanctuary of Diana Nemorensis, or Diana of the Wood.2 The lake and the grove were sometimes known as the lake and grove of Aricia.3 But the town of Aricia (the modern La Riccia) was situated about three miles off, at the foot of the Alban Mount, and separated by a steep descent from the lake, which lies in a small crater-like hollow on the mountain side. In this sacred grove there grew a certain tree round which at any time of the day and probably far into the night a strange figure might be seen to prowl. In his hand he carried a drawn sword, and he kept peering warily about him as if every instant he expected to be set upon by an enemy.4 He was a priest and a murderer; and the man for whom he looked was sooner or later to murder him and hold the priesthood in his stead. Such was the rule of the sanctuary. A candidate for the priesthood could only succeed to office by slaying the priest, and having slain him he held office till he was himself slain by a stronger or a craftier.&#xD;&#xA;This strange rule has no parallel in classical antiquity, and cannot be explained from it. ...”" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17275" PostHistoryTypeId="36" PostId="5175" RevisionGUID="5b184117-3f17-428a-8ff9-19ae3d7790b6" CreationDate="2018-10-21T11:58:23.297" UserId="-1" Comment="from https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/48847/greek-or-roman-equivalent-of-bible" />
  <row Id="17276" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5175" RevisionGUID="6f91051d-98d6-4372-895c-87f174e14383" CreationDate="2018-10-21T00:49:04.033" UserDisplayName="Lance Pollard" Text="Wondering if there are any documents that document the Greek or Roman mythologies in a way similar to the bible, in that it acts as a comprehensive resource for all the knowledge about it. Maybe [Metamorphosis](https://archive.org/details/metamorphosestra00oviduoft/page/106) is an example, I am not sure. Also, I am not talking about the Greek form of the Bible. I am instead just asking about Greek or Roman mythology documentation in ancient sources, what some good resources are." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17277" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5175" RevisionGUID="6f91051d-98d6-4372-895c-87f174e14383" CreationDate="2018-10-21T00:49:04.033" UserDisplayName="Lance Pollard" Text="Greek or Roman equivalent of Bible" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17278" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5175" RevisionGUID="6f91051d-98d6-4372-895c-87f174e14383" CreationDate="2018-10-21T00:49:04.033" UserDisplayName="Lance Pollard" Text="|bible|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17279" PostHistoryTypeId="36" PostId="5176" RevisionGUID="4bfd8f6e-c454-4187-b5d1-0544ce6e2c86" CreationDate="2018-10-21T11:58:23.297" UserId="-1" Comment="from https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/48847/greek-or-roman-equivalent-of-bible/48848#48848" />
  <row Id="17280" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5176" RevisionGUID="53c20dbf-5a55-4c9d-a7f7-00e5e0f55716" CreationDate="2018-10-21T01:01:44.717" UserId="4192" Text="One would have to start with the [Iliad][1] and [Odyssey][2] by Homer, the [Theogony][3] by Hesiod and the [Aeneid][4] by Virgil, in addition to the aforementioned Metamorphosis by Ovid. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iliad&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odyssey&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theogony&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneid" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17281" PostHistoryTypeId="36" PostId="5177" RevisionGUID="560f21d9-6042-44d9-a687-089bcf5c7dbd" CreationDate="2018-10-21T11:58:23.297" UserId="-1" Comment="from https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/48847/greek-or-roman-equivalent-of-bible/48853#48853" />
  <row Id="17282" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5177" RevisionGUID="cf36c164-7148-4ed2-9066-4a4c1a267264" CreationDate="2018-10-21T10:57:11.390" UserId="5229" Text="In terms of comprehensiveness, the [*Bibliotheca*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliotheca_(Pseudo-Apollodorus)) of (Pseudo-)Apollodorus ([text](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0022)) is probably the best single work for Greek mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Older sources, such as Homer, Hesiod, lyric poets (e.g. Pindar) and playwrights (e.g. Sophocles) are all important sources of myths, but each work usually deals with a single myth rather than a documentation of myths. For example, Homer's *Iliad* deals only with the Trojan War, in fact only a certain period of time in the middle of the war; whereas the *Bibliotheca* summarizes the story in a few paragraphs (epitome, 3-4).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, in antiquity, the knowledge of the myths would have been common knowledge from oral tradition, but Homer and other authors were studied and quoted as texts (oral or written), so in that respect they are more similar to the Bible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know of no similar prose work for Roman mythology, but Ovid's *Metamorphoses* is more comprehensive than the early Greek sources were. However, Virgil's *Aeneid*, though not by any means a compilation of myths, was studies in schools, alongside Homer (cf. [Confessions 1.8](http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf101.vi.I_1.XIII.html))." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17283" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5178" RevisionGUID="dafb577c-7d92-4b91-8e59-1f7ac2f349ec" CreationDate="2018-10-21T19:34:35.067" UserId="5477" Text="Wondering if there are any original-ish documents in the original Celtic, Old English, Old Norse, or Gothic (or other related languages), telling of any of the myths or fairy tales or stories that could be along the lines of Ovid's Metamorphosis, or the Bibliotheca, or the Bible, or perhaps short stories of different sorts, such as [The Little Red RidingHood](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/lfb/bl/blfb06.htm) (or other European stories in Old Norse, Gothic, etc.). Wondering if they can be found online anywhere such as archive.org. Looking for the stories written in the original language, rather than in English. Basically the earliest sources, even if that means in Latin or Greek too, which is maybe more likely (though Beowulf seems to be written in Old English which is more what I'm looking for)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17284" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5178" RevisionGUID="dafb577c-7d92-4b91-8e59-1f7ac2f349ec" CreationDate="2018-10-21T19:34:35.067" UserId="5477" Text="Original Celtic, Old English, Old Norse, or Gothic Texts Online" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17285" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5178" RevisionGUID="dafb577c-7d92-4b91-8e59-1f7ac2f349ec" CreationDate="2018-10-21T19:34:35.067" UserId="5477" Text="|mythohistory|fairy-tales|medieval-europe|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17286" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5178" RevisionGUID="b5287958-b734-41e7-b759-9ffbdc5f2fb3" CreationDate="2018-10-21T20:15:52.437" UserId="5477" Comment="added 150 characters in body" Text="Wondering if there are any original-ish documents in the original Celtic, Old English, Old Norse, or Gothic (or other related languages), telling of any of the myths or fairy tales or stories that could be along the lines of Ovid's Metamorphosis, or the Bibliotheca, or the Bible, or perhaps short stories of different sorts, such as [The Little Red RidingHood](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/lfb/bl/blfb06.htm) (or other European stories in Old Norse, Gothic, etc.). Wondering if they can be found online anywhere such as archive.org. Looking for the stories written in the original language, rather than in English. Basically the earliest sources, even if that means in Latin or Greek too, which is maybe more likely (though Beowulf seems to be written in Old English which is more what I'm looking for).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If there aren't any, would be helpful to know if they were just not written down or if they are just not transferred from say old books into PDFs." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17287" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5175" RevisionGUID="3b3c8b0e-c186-4f9f-ac90-44952507fe9d" CreationDate="2018-10-21T20:22:43.237" UserId="5229" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|roman|bible|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17288" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5175" RevisionGUID="3b3c8b0e-c186-4f9f-ac90-44952507fe9d" CreationDate="2018-10-21T20:22:43.237" Comment="Proposed by 5229 approved by 5477 edit id of 1682" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17289" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5179" RevisionGUID="f21278e9-2b80-40fc-aed4-bcb2b21abe64" CreationDate="2018-10-21T20:34:58.503" UserId="5477" Text="Wondering if anyone has copied any Ancient Egyptian texts such as [this](http://sacred-texts.com/egy/pyt/index.htm) into [Unicode Hieroglyphs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_Hieroglyphs_(Unicode_block)) or something similar, rather than English translations. Or if not, if there are photographs of the original Egyptian hieroglyphic texts." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17290" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5179" RevisionGUID="f21278e9-2b80-40fc-aed4-bcb2b21abe64" CreationDate="2018-10-21T20:34:58.503" UserId="5477" Text="If any Ancient Egyptian Texts exist as Hieroglyphics in Online Documents" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17291" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5179" RevisionGUID="f21278e9-2b80-40fc-aed4-bcb2b21abe64" CreationDate="2018-10-21T20:34:58.503" UserId="5477" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17292" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5170" RevisionGUID="97f21815-5e4d-4e36-89f8-da6991361405" CreationDate="2018-10-21T23:20:10.200" UserId="1317" Comment="edited body" Text="&lt;h2&gt;No.&lt;/h2&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From both an ancient philosophical approach, and one based on human nature, this was impossible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some of the answers cite the _Iliad_ to show some attempts to avert the city's destruction, but these were already doomed to fail. Priam decided not to give Helen back directly, and when Menelaus bested Paris in combat, the gods spirited him away.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact, this whole question incorrectly approaches the subject from a modern point of view  -- the ancient Greeks didn't think like that. The core of their philosophy was **[Fatalism](http://agroeh.blogspot.com/2011/11/moirae-and-graeae.html)**, or the belief that destiny (plus the whims of the gods) controlled events, and not men's actions. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The whole story of the Trojan War is imbued with the impossibility of avoiding fate. [Hecuba](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecuba)'s dream while carrying Paris, and its outcome, demonstrate this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The first son born to her was Hector; and when a second babe was about to be born Hecuba dreamed she had brought forth a firebrand, and that the fire spread over the whole city and burned it. When Priam learned of the dream from Hecuba, he sent for his son [Aesacus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesacus), for he was an interpreter of dreams, having been taught by his mother's father Merops. He declared that the child was begotten to be the ruin of his country and advised that the babe should be exposed. When the babe was born Priam gave it to a servant to take and expose on Ida; now the servant was named Agelaus. Exposed by him, the infant was nursed for five days by a bear; and, when he found it safe, he took it up, carried it away, brought it up as his own son on his farm, and named him [Paris](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_(mythology)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pseudo-Apollodorus, _[Bibliotheca](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliotheca_(Pseudo-Apollodorus))_, [3.12.5](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D3%3Achapter%3D12%3Asection%3D5), Tr. Sir James George Fraser&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The prophecy in Hecuba's dream is fulfilled, despite everyone's attempts to avoid it. Troy's destruction was assured by Paris's survival as an infant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After Achilles slays Hector, Hecuba makes direct reference to Fate while trying to persuade Priam from going to beg Achilles for the body:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Let us then weep Hector from afar here in our own house, for **when I gave him birth the threads of overruling fate were spun for him that dogs should eat his flesh far from his parents**, in the house of that terrible man on whose liver I would fain fasten and devour it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;MIT Internet Classics Archive,  _Iliad_, [book 24](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.24.xxiv.html), 209, tr. Samuel Butler &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So let's leave mythology behind and treat the characters in the Iliad as real people, or at least the heroic archetypes Homer was depicting. On a level of human nature, the destruction of Troy was also inevitable. Even if Fate wasn't controlling everything, the Greeks and Trojans couldn't help but make devisions that led to the city's destruction.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although triggered by Paris's abduction of Helen, the Achaean expedition against Troy was a massive undertaking and they had a lot invested in it. Agamemnon in particular _sacrificed his own daughter Iphiginea_ to gain the favorable winds necessary to get to Troy. And it's clear that Helen was secondary to pride, glory, and booty -- thus the squabble between Achilles and Agamemnon over [Briseis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Briseis) prolonged the conflict and almost brought the Greeks to ruin. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When [Patroclus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patroclus) convinced Achilles to let him lead the Myrmidons against the Trojans about to overrun the Greek ships, Achilles advised Patroclus to do only that and come tight back. But of course Patroclus didn't do that -- instead, wearing Achilles's armor, he went on a wild rampage in the Trojan army until Apollo knocked the helmet off, allowing Euphorbus to kill him.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17293" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5180" RevisionGUID="eb1d29bb-37fa-4912-94f6-05709ac5a305" CreationDate="2018-10-22T07:46:52.070" UserId="2774" Text="Hum... 5 mn on Google should deliver plenty of documents... Honestly, hieroglyphics texts and hieroglyphics reading manuals are so common...&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Reading manuals:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [How to read Egyptian Hieroglyphs, a step by step guide][1] A simple approach but help if you do not have a teacher next to you&#xD;&#xA; - [Middle Egyptian: An Introduction to the Language and Culture of Hieroglyphs][2] One of the best book I ever read on any language. That book is miserably good.&#xD;&#xA;Friendly warning: While they are still widely used by internauts, FORGET Wallis Budge books... Forget them. They are WAY too old. Way way way. Any of Wallis Budge's books, his one on hieroglyphs or his old translations. Forget them.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now concerning texts:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [The Pyramid text online][3] That is the tomb of Unis (they spelled Unas due to the Egyptian i which is often spelled a), with plenty of photos, and English translation. All the tomb is clearly photographed&#xD;&#xA; - [Projet Rosette][4], a French site, but you do not care, it is written in English with plenty of texts.&#xD;&#xA; - [Annoting Egyptian texts][5] Very nice resource with photos and the text in font translation (easier to read)&#xD;&#xA; - [Saint Andrew Corpus][6] the text in hieroglyphs with the transliteration and the traduction, best way to learn&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you can see, resources are PLENTY. Egyptian is a tough language, very tough, its writing system a pain. But there are tons of excellent resources to study it.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And forget anything written by Wallis Budge. I told it, mentioned it. I am repeating it. They even made fun of the fact Wallis Budge's books are still in print in the old movie Stargate!!! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.amazon.fr/Read-Egyptian-Hieroglyphs-Step-Step/dp/0520239490&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.amazon.fr/Middle-Egyptian-Introduction-Language-Hieroglyphs/dp/0521741440&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.pyramidtextsonline.com/index.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://vincent.euverte.free.fr/Rosette/index.php?Lang=E&amp;Style=_dark&amp;Page=7&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://sachi.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/research/digital-humanities/annotating-hieroglyphic-text/&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://mjn.host.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/egyptian/texts/corpus/pdf/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17294" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5181" RevisionGUID="81c2ae74-d962-4e5e-97be-6029ab5cf69b" CreationDate="2018-10-22T08:33:22.430" UserId="666" Text="Old Norse&#xD;&#xA;---------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For Old Norse, [heimskringla.no][1] has a lot of material, including different editions (also in modern Nordic languages). The site itself is mostly in Norwegian, so it can be tricky to navigate if you don't speak a Nordic language. There are two obvious books to start with:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Snorri's *Edda*][2]. This is usually the preferable starting point, as it is a treatise on poetics, which gives the background needed to understand and write poetry in the Old Norse style, including the myths that underlie the poetic language. There are also a lot of examples of poetry.&#xD;&#xA; - [*The Poetic Edda*][3]. This is a collection of poetry with mythological or legendary subject matter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is of course a lot of other material there as well, but those are the ones you really should check out first.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gothic&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;There is very little surviving material of the Gothic language(s) at all. What exists are mainly manuscripts of Wulfila's Bible translation. These are available through the [Wulfila project][4].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://heimskringla.no/wiki/Main_Page&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://heimskringla.no/wiki/Edda_Snorra_Sturlusonar&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://heimskringla.no/wiki/Eddukv%C3%A6%C3%B0i&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.wulfila.be/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17296" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5182" RevisionGUID="a22d22ba-ee68-4419-b677-74d1481554f2" CreationDate="2018-10-22T23:25:29.227" UserId="4271" Text="If you have read Harry Potter/Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them by Joanne Rowling, you see references to Greek/Roman Mythology everywhere. To name a few (or more),&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Hermione- princess of Sparta&#xD;&#xA; - Minerva- Roman goddess of wisdom&#xD;&#xA; - Fluffy/Kerberos- three headed guard dog&#xD;&#xA; - Scamander- river god near Troy&#xD;&#xA; - Theseus- Greek hero&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But one I never imagined would come up in relation to Greek Mythology was Rubeus Hagrid. I always heard Rowling was struck with the inspiration for this character after she saw a tall biker somewhere.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But, I just came across a [Prezi][1] that lists Hagrid as a Greek Mythology inspiration. On slide eleven, it says that Hagrid Rubes, known as the giant of the jewels, was a kind giant, but was framed for murder and banished from Olympus to take care of animals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After a few searches online, this is all the information that is said about Hagrid Rubes. But what murder did Hagrid Rubes get blamed for? Why was his punishment to take care of animals? Why was he known as the giant of the jewels?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://prezi.com/hjm88tlotg9n/mythological-references-in-harry-potter/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17297" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5182" RevisionGUID="a22d22ba-ee68-4419-b677-74d1481554f2" CreationDate="2018-10-22T23:25:29.227" UserId="4271" Text="Hagrid, a kind giant" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17298" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5182" RevisionGUID="a22d22ba-ee68-4419-b677-74d1481554f2" CreationDate="2018-10-22T23:25:29.227" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|giants|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17299" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5183" RevisionGUID="3de533c0-32bc-47de-b4fa-258cae6f9bc6" CreationDate="2018-10-23T00:19:23.097" UserId="2687" Text="##This sounds inaccurate.##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rowling has partly explained where she came up with the name for Hagrid.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rubeus comes from [a word for red](https://www.pottermore.com/writing-by-jk-rowling/colours):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Colours also played their part in the naming of Hagrid and Dumbledore, whose first names are Rubeus (red) and Albus (white) respectively. The choice was a nod to alchemy, which is so important in the first Harry Potter book, where ‘the red’ and ‘the white’ are essential mystical components of the process. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although I can't find any authorial confirmation, Hagrid seems to come from &quot;hag-ridden,&quot; an old war referring to a variety of disruptive sleep states (including some brought on by heavy alcohol consumption, as Hagrid engages in) and [possibly *The Mayor of Casterbridge* in particular.](https://www.johndcook.com/blog/2011/09/22/thomas-hardy-and-harry-potter/)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17300" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5183" RevisionGUID="85ef96f9-0425-479b-b2f0-10ce9f7e2235" CreationDate="2018-10-23T00:25:48.990" UserId="2687" Comment="added 118 characters in body" Text="##This sounds inaccurate.##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rowling has partly explained where she came up with the name for Hagrid.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rubeus comes from [a word for red](https://www.pottermore.com/writing-by-jk-rowling/colours):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Colours also played their part in the naming of Hagrid and Dumbledore, whose first names are Rubeus (red) and Albus (white) respectively. The choice was a nod to alchemy, which is so important in the first Harry Potter book, where ‘the red’ and ‘the white’ are essential mystical components of the process. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although I can't find any authorial confirmation, Hagrid seems to come from &quot;hag-ridden,&quot; an old word referring to a variety of disruptive sleep states (including some brought on by heavy alcohol consumption, as Hagrid engages in) and [possibly *The Mayor of Casterbridge* in particular.](https://www.johndcook.com/blog/2011/09/22/thomas-hardy-and-harry-potter/)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further, searching the internet reveals plentiful references to &quot;Hagrid Rubes,&quot; but none citing original sources. Some include dubious assertions, such as Rubes being framed by Hades (that wasn't really his thing) or living on Olympus (not likely for a giant, however friendly), or having been framed for the murder of &quot;Piraeus.&quot; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17301" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5183" RevisionGUID="44975b9c-91fe-49ff-bac5-c28d6c8ab642" CreationDate="2018-10-23T00:32:46.783" UserId="2687" Comment="added 118 characters in body" Text="##This sounds inaccurate.##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rowling has partly explained where she came up with the name for Hagrid.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rubeus comes from [a word for red](https://www.pottermore.com/writing-by-jk-rowling/colours):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Colours also played their part in the naming of Hagrid and Dumbledore, whose first names are Rubeus (red) and Albus (white) respectively. The choice was a nod to alchemy, which is so important in the first Harry Potter book, where ‘the red’ and ‘the white’ are essential mystical components of the process. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although I can't find any authorial confirmation, Hagrid seems to come from &quot;hag-ridden,&quot; an old word referring to a variety of disruptive sleep states (including some brought on by heavy alcohol consumption, as Hagrid engages in) and [possibly *The Mayor of Casterbridge* in particular.](https://www.johndcook.com/blog/2011/09/22/thomas-hardy-and-harry-potter/)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further, searching the internet reveals plentiful references to &quot;Hagrid Rubes,&quot; but none citing original sources. Some include dubious assertions, such as Rubes being framed by Hades (that wasn't really his thing) or living on Olympus (not likely for a giant, however friendly), or having been framed for the murder of &quot;Piraeus.&quot; The only instances in Google Books are from the 21st century. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; The fact that &quot;rubeus&quot; is Latin, and the Greek for red is ἐρυθρός, like the blood cell (which can also mean other colors), is another giveaway, since this is supposed to be Greek mythology. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17302" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5184" RevisionGUID="d1dda8c1-54eb-4c59-bff6-4885ca59809a" CreationDate="2018-10-23T01:31:47.600" UserId="1016" Text="One of Heracles's twelve labors was to retrieve the golden apples from the Hesperides, the &quot;Daughters of the Evening&quot;.  The only one who'd know where they are is the titan Atlas, who was condemned to hold the heavens on his shoulders as punishment for siding with his fellow titan Kronos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The chapter was an interesting one in its own right, but there is a snag.  Heracles was supposed to be a descendant of Perseus, yet the latter was said to use the head of Medusa to turn him into stone (or the Atlas Mountains of Morocco, take your perspective.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So how could Atlas still be flesh and blood in Heracles's time when the hero's ancestor turned him into rock?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17303" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5184" RevisionGUID="d1dda8c1-54eb-4c59-bff6-4885ca59809a" CreationDate="2018-10-23T01:31:47.600" UserId="1016" Text="The Atlas Continuity Issue" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17304" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5184" RevisionGUID="d1dda8c1-54eb-4c59-bff6-4885ca59809a" CreationDate="2018-10-23T01:31:47.600" UserId="1016" Text="|greek|hercules|perseus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17306" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5185" RevisionGUID="c7f87a51-8c7f-4555-bc43-e85b177ec9c0" CreationDate="2018-10-23T07:34:41.387" UserId="5477" Text="Wondering if there are any original documents in text format (i.e. &quot;etexts&quot;) for any of the Southeast Asian or Polynesian mythology, folklore, or just general documents _written in their native language_ (that are also copyright free or permissive like creative commons license or similar). Some of the languages that these could be in which I'm not sure is:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Tagalog&#xD;&#xA;- Tamil&#xD;&#xA;- Malay&#xD;&#xA;- Burmese&#xD;&#xA;- Hawaiian&#xD;&#xA;- Maori&#xD;&#xA;- Japanese (I'm just including anyways).&#xD;&#xA;- Thai&#xD;&#xA;- Indonesian&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Taking a look at something like [Tagalog literature](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Tagalog_literary_works) brings me to a sort of Tagalog script such as [this](https://web.archive.org/web/20070512165449/http://www.gutenberg.org:80/files/14794/14794-8.txt), but it is a bit messed up and in romanized Tagalog rather than [Tagalog script](https://www.omniglot.com/writing/tagalog.htm). I am looking for the original scripts instead of romanized versions. [Project Gutenberg](https://www.gutenberg.org/browse/languages/tl) doesn't have any in Tagalog script, for example, as far as I can tell." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17307" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5185" RevisionGUID="c7f87a51-8c7f-4555-bc43-e85b177ec9c0" CreationDate="2018-10-23T07:34:41.387" UserId="5477" Text="Original Southeast Asian or Polynesian Literature (as Computer Readable Text) Online" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17308" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5185" RevisionGUID="c7f87a51-8c7f-4555-bc43-e85b177ec9c0" CreationDate="2018-10-23T07:34:41.387" UserId="5477" Text="|reference-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17310" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5170" RevisionGUID="11299e82-438a-43e0-a8bb-16cbfe0787dd" CreationDate="2018-10-23T11:07:33.473" UserId="1317" Comment="Typo" Text="&lt;h2&gt;No.&lt;/h2&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From both an ancient philosophical approach, and one based on human nature, this was impossible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some of the answers cite the _Iliad_ to show some attempts to avert the city's destruction, but these were already doomed to fail. Priam decided not to give Helen back directly, and when Menelaus bested Paris in combat, the gods spirited him away.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact, this whole question incorrectly approaches the subject from a modern point of view  -- the ancient Greeks didn't think like that. The core of their philosophy was **[Fatalism](http://agroeh.blogspot.com/2011/11/moirae-and-graeae.html)**, or the belief that destiny (plus the whims of the gods) controlled events, and not men's actions. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The whole story of the Trojan War is imbued with the impossibility of avoiding fate. [Hecuba](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecuba)'s dream while carrying Paris, and its outcome, demonstrate this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The first son born to her was Hector; and when a second babe was about to be born Hecuba dreamed she had brought forth a firebrand, and that the fire spread over the whole city and burned it. When Priam learned of the dream from Hecuba, he sent for his son [Aesacus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesacus), for he was an interpreter of dreams, having been taught by his mother's father Merops. He declared that the child was begotten to be the ruin of his country and advised that the babe should be exposed. When the babe was born Priam gave it to a servant to take and expose on Ida; now the servant was named Agelaus. Exposed by him, the infant was nursed for five days by a bear; and, when he found it safe, he took it up, carried it away, brought it up as his own son on his farm, and named him [Paris](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_(mythology)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pseudo-Apollodorus, _[Bibliotheca](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliotheca_(Pseudo-Apollodorus))_, [3.12.5](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D3%3Achapter%3D12%3Asection%3D5), Tr. Sir James George Fraser&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The prophecy in Hecuba's dream is fulfilled, despite everyone's attempts to avoid it. Troy's destruction was assured by Paris's survival as an infant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After Achilles slays Hector, Hecuba makes direct reference to Fate while trying to persuade Priam from going to beg Achilles for the body:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Let us then weep Hector from afar here in our own house, for **when I gave him birth the threads of overruling fate were spun for him that dogs should eat his flesh far from his parents**, in the house of that terrible man on whose liver I would fain fasten and devour it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;MIT Internet Classics Archive,  _Iliad_, [book 24](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.24.xxiv.html), 209, tr. Samuel Butler &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So let's leave mythology behind and treat the characters in the Iliad as real people, or at least the heroic archetypes Homer was depicting. On a level of human nature, the destruction of Troy was also inevitable. Even if Fate wasn't controlling everything, the Greeks and Trojans couldn't help but make decisions that led to the city's destruction.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although triggered by Paris's abduction of Helen, the Achaean expedition against Troy was a massive undertaking and they had a lot invested in it. Agamemnon in particular _sacrificed his own daughter Iphiginea_ to gain the favorable winds necessary to get to Troy. And it's clear that Helen was secondary to pride, glory, and booty -- thus the squabble between Achilles and Agamemnon over [Briseis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Briseis) prolonged the conflict and almost brought the Greeks to ruin. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When [Patroclus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patroclus) convinced Achilles to let him lead the Myrmidons against the Trojans about to overrun the Greek ships, Achilles advised Patroclus to do only that and come tight back. But of course Patroclus didn't do that -- instead, wearing Achilles's armor, he went on a wild rampage in the Trojan army until Apollo knocked the helmet off, allowing Euphorbus to kill him.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17311" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5186" RevisionGUID="d53a3903-3692-4f96-ace5-9c6261e4a955" CreationDate="2018-10-23T19:47:46.040" UserId="2682" Text="These are two different, conflicting and thus contradictory versions based on variant traditions. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The older tradition is the one in which Heracles actually interacts with the Titan Atlas, who helps him to procure the apples of the Hesperides.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the later version, in which Perseus had turned Atlas to stone generations before Heracles' birth, Heracles himself acquires the apples after a fight with the guardian dragon of the Hesperides' garden, which is sometimes located in the mountains which Atlas' body had become.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The oldest mention of this second version that I have encountered is a fragment of the 5th-century BC poet Polyeidus preserved in the 12th-century AD encyclopaedia called the Etymologicum Magnum, wherein Atlas is called simply &quot;a shepherd&quot; who was turned to stone by Perseus. The fullest surviving account of this version of which I am aware is given to us by the Roman poet Ovid in his *Metamorphoses* (written roughly 400 years after Polyeidus).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;William Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology says that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the Homeric description of Atlas, the idea of his being a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; superhuman or divine being, with a personal existence, seems to be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; blended with the idea of a mountain. The idea of heaven-bearing Atlas&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is, according to Letronne, a mere personification of a cosmographic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; notion, which arose from the views entertained by the ancients&#xD;&#xA;&gt; respecting the nature of heaven and its relation to the earth... &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [L]ater traditions distort the original idea still more, by putting&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rationalistic interpretations upon it, and make Atlas a man who was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; metamorphosed into a mountain. Thus Ovid (Met. iv. 630,&amp;c., comp. ii.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 296) relates, that Perseus came to him and asked for shelter, which he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was refused, whereupon Perseus, by means of the head of Medusa,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; changed him into mount Atlas, on which rested heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17312" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5164" RevisionGUID="31227d99-592f-46c3-82f8-ccf3c5b85aa4" CreationDate="2018-10-23T22:57:25.330" UserId="4271" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="Yes, the Trojans could have surrendered Helen to avoid war. Before the fighting began, an embassy composed of Menelaus and Odyssey was dispatched to Troy demanding the return of Helen. This the subject of [Sophocles'](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophocles#Fragmentary_plays) now lost *Helenes Apaitesis*, and referenced during the *Iliad* by [Antenor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antenor_(mythology)) (who hosted the Greeks) and [Agamemnon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agamemnon). Evidently, Priam rejected the demand.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Elsewhere in the *Iliad*, Paris actually proposed a duel with Menelaus to end the war, and this was accepted by the Greeks. As Agamemnon vowed:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; If Alexandrus kills Menelaus, let him keep Helen and all her wealth,&#xD;&#xA;while we sail home with our ships; but if Menelaus kills Alexandrus,&#xD;&#xA;let the Trojans give back Helen and all that she has; let them moreover&#xD;&#xA;pay such fine to the Achaeans as shall be agreed upon, in testimony&#xD;&#xA;among those that shall be born hereafter.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;The Iliad, Book III&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Menelaus won the duel, though Aphrodite spirited Paris away before the killing blow. All indications were that if Helen was then returned to Menelaus, the war would be ended. However, the truce was then broken by the Trojans at the instigation of Athena, with the result that fighting resumed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's no single reason for why the Trojans refused to surrender Helen - not all Trojans were of one mind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One reason would be Helen's beauty. Several of the wisest elders of Troy actually believed they *should* return Helen to Menelaus, but find it a matter of course that the Trojans would fight to keep such beauty:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When they saw Helen coming towards the tower, they said softly to one another, &quot;Small wonder that Trojans and Achaeans should endure so much and so long, for the sake of a woman so marvellously and divinely lovely. Still, fair though she be, let them take her and go, or she will breed sorrow for us and for our children after us.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Likewise, this is obviously Paris' motivation, and he bribed other Trojans into supporting him in keeping Helen:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It was Antimachus who had been foremost in preventing&#xD;&#xA;Helen's being restored to Menelaus, for he was largely bribed by Alexandrus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Secondly, both Priam, the King, and Hector, the greatest hero of Troy, appeared to genuinely care for Helen. As Helen mourned at Hector's funeral,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  &quot;Hector,&quot; said she, &quot;dearest of all my brothers-in-law . . . I have never heard one word of insult or unkindness from you. When another would chide with me, as it might be one of your brothers or sisters or of your brothers' wives, or my mother-in-law - for Priam was as kind to me as though he were my own father - you would rebuke and check them with words of gentleness and goodwill.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, Priam might have had the additional motivation of revenge. Years before the Trojan War, the Greek hero [Heracles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heracles) sacked Troy and captured Priam's sister [Hesione](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesione). She was given to to [Telamon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telamon), father of Ajax and Teucer. At some point prior to Paris' seduction of Helen, Priam requested the return of his sister but was rebuked.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the version told in the 13th century *Historia Troiana*, the Trojan ambassador Antenor, received a hostile reception from the Greek kings. In response, Priam sent an army to retrieve Heosine by force under the command of Paris, who diverted the army to seize Helen instead. It is thus understandable if Priam give the Archaeans a taste of their own medicine." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17313" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5187" RevisionGUID="cbc3c93b-16cc-4d4a-9696-bf75230408c7" CreationDate="2018-10-23T23:52:15.920" UserId="4271" Text="In the Argonautica, both the [Planctea][1] and the [Symplegades][2] are mentioned. One on the way in search of the Golden Fleece and the other on the way back. The Planctea was also known as, &quot;the Wondering Rocks,&quot; and the Symplegades had another name of, &quot;the Clashing Rocks.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jason (or Iason, before the letter J was invented) encountered both the Wandering Rocks and the Clashing Rocks in his quest for the Golden Fleece. He encountered the Clashing Rocks first. To get through, he released a dove (or multiple doves until one came back), and when it came back with only a few tail feathers missing, heading advice from the seer Phineus, knew if his ship went fast enough through, he could make it. He did with only the very back of the ship being caught between the Rocks. After this, they stopped clashing forever.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On his way back from finding the Golden fleece, Jason came in contact with the Wandering Rocks. He bested this obstical as well and continued on his way.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I looked at both Wikipedia's. On the Planctae's one, it mentions the differences and similarities have been debated, but only talk about the location of them. What are the differences between the two?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planctae&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symplegades" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17314" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5187" RevisionGUID="cbc3c93b-16cc-4d4a-9696-bf75230408c7" CreationDate="2018-10-23T23:52:15.920" UserId="4271" Text="Planctae vs. Symplegades" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17315" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5187" RevisionGUID="cbc3c93b-16cc-4d4a-9696-bf75230408c7" CreationDate="2018-10-23T23:52:15.920" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|myth-identification|mythical-creatures|argonauts|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17316" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2935" RevisionGUID="f1f82849-1c2c-4db4-8e95-46e85852eb9b" CreationDate="2018-10-23T23:57:03.713" UserId="4271" Comment="added 9 characters in body; edited tags" Text="Medea murders her brother Absyrtus to facilitate her's and Jason's escape from Colchis. In some versions of the myth - most notably in Euripides's eponymous play - she also murders her sons for revenge against Jason for abandoning her. Yet, uncharacteristically for kin-killers in Greek mythology, she suffers no punishment for her crimes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is that? Why isn't Medea punished?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17317" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2935" RevisionGUID="f1f82849-1c2c-4db4-8e95-46e85852eb9b" CreationDate="2018-10-23T23:57:03.713" UserId="4271" Comment="added 9 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|greek|medea|jason|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17318" PostHistoryTypeId="8" PostId="2935" RevisionGUID="3f74fa7f-cb4c-4fc7-b184-a6d68fb77566" CreationDate="2018-10-24T00:13:03.963" UserId="57" Comment="Rollback to [60da92e2-bf62-4867-a7d2-8d91018244f6]" Text="Medea murders her brother Absyrtus to facilitate her's and Jason's escape from Colchis. In some versions of the myth - most notably in Euripides's eponymous play - she also murders her sons to revenge Jason for abandoning her. Yet, uncharacteristically for kin-killers in Greek mythology, she suffers no punishment for her crimes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is that? Why isn't Medea punished?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17319" PostHistoryTypeId="9" PostId="2935" RevisionGUID="3f74fa7f-cb4c-4fc7-b184-a6d68fb77566" CreationDate="2018-10-24T00:13:03.963" UserId="57" Comment="Rollback to [60da92e2-bf62-4867-a7d2-8d91018244f6]" Text="|greek|medea|" />
  <row Id="17320" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5188" RevisionGUID="75b4dcad-50cd-439d-8a0b-4fef615d28b8" CreationDate="2018-10-24T00:44:58.687" UserId="5329" Text="like the myth says he killed the lion by putting the beast in a stranglehold and chocked it to death, but how did he avoid being clawed and bitten by the lion while doing so." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17321" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5188" RevisionGUID="75b4dcad-50cd-439d-8a0b-4fef615d28b8" CreationDate="2018-10-24T00:44:58.687" UserId="5329" Text="how did hercules kill the lion? without being clawed to death?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17322" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5188" RevisionGUID="75b4dcad-50cd-439d-8a0b-4fef615d28b8" CreationDate="2018-10-24T00:44:58.687" UserId="5329" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|hercules|demi-gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17323" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5188" RevisionGUID="9b377bf2-c2b7-486d-81d6-1d174b8d2acf" CreationDate="2018-10-24T07:03:24.403" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; corrected spelling" Text="The myth says he killed the lion by putting the beast in a stranglehold and choking it to death, but how did he avoid being clawed and bitten by the lion while doing so?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17324" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5188" RevisionGUID="9b377bf2-c2b7-486d-81d6-1d174b8d2acf" CreationDate="2018-10-24T07:03:24.403" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; corrected spelling" Text="How did Hercules kill the lion without being clawed to death?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17325" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5189" RevisionGUID="705c5c69-7216-4fb4-b5b6-404b08683163" CreationDate="2018-10-24T07:42:32.683" UserId="2682" Text="Presumably by &quot;the lion&quot; you are referring to the Nemean Lion. I think it safe to assume that at least two factors worked in the favour of Heracles (whom the Romans called Hercules), the foremost of which is that, since Heracles' strength was so prodigious, it was a significantly easier task for him to perform safely than it would have been for a more ordinary man. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Considering how Heracles fared against gods and giants, who may have been much larger and some of whom certainly were way more powerful than this lion, Heracles was probably several times stronger than this beast, and it may have been for him, by my guess, like handling a rag doll (aside from certain dangerous features of the like that you reference, i.e. its razor-sharp claws).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The other factor, to augment the first, is that Heracles is supposed to have been a highly skilled wrestler, this idea coming from the assertion that he had received expert training in this discipline from a certain son of Hermes, either Autolycus (according to Apollodorus) or Harpalycus (according to Theocritus), the latter of whom &quot;no man could abide confidently in the ring even so much as to look upon him from aloof: so dread and horrible was the frown that sat on his grim visage.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notwithstanding the above, there is a later writer named Ptolemy Hephaestion who in his *New History*, takes up the Question's concern, telling us that Heracles lost one of his fingers in the fight against the Nemean Lion, so while he neither died nor, so far as we are informed, sustained further injury, he did not get away with this fully unscathed. It is noteworthy that he seems to have learned from the experience, thereafter using the lion's pelt to protect his body from further harm.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ptolemy uses the episode of Heracles' maiming as an aetiology (origin story) of particular burial practices, one of which is carried down for centuries afterwards in parts of Western European culture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Heracles, after the Nemean Lion had bitten off one of his fingers, had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; only nine... [T]here exists a tomb erected for this detached finger...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [O]ne can see at Sparta a stone lion erected on the tomb of the finger&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and which is the symbol of the power of the hero. It is since then&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that stone lions have likewise been erected on the tombs of other&#xD;&#xA;&gt; important people. Other authors give different explications of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lion statues." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17326" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5185" RevisionGUID="4135cbda-3809-4a08-9317-8f3f7e2a8aa3" CreationDate="2018-10-24T08:22:24.123" UserId="5477" Comment="added 13 characters in body" Text="Wondering if there are any original documents in text format (i.e. &quot;etexts&quot;) for any of the Southeast Asian or Polynesian mythology, folklore, or just general documents _written in their native language_ (that are also copyright free or permissive like creative commons license or similar). Some of the languages that these could be in which I'm not sure is:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Tagalog&#xD;&#xA;- Telugu&#xD;&#xA;- Tamil&#xD;&#xA;- Malay&#xD;&#xA;- Burmese&#xD;&#xA;- Hawaiian&#xD;&#xA;- Maori&#xD;&#xA;- Japanese (I'm just including anyways).&#xD;&#xA;- Thai&#xD;&#xA;- Indonesian&#xD;&#xA;- Javanese &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Taking a look at something like [Tagalog literature](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Tagalog_literary_works) brings me to a sort of Tagalog script such as [this](https://web.archive.org/web/20070512165449/http://www.gutenberg.org:80/files/14794/14794-8.txt), but it is a bit messed up and in romanized Tagalog rather than [Tagalog script](https://www.omniglot.com/writing/tagalog.htm). I am looking for the original scripts instead of romanized versions. [Project Gutenberg](https://www.gutenberg.org/browse/languages/tl) doesn't have any in Tagalog script, for example, as far as I can tell." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17327" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5185" RevisionGUID="017d0bf8-6010-4014-a64d-0babdf64a02a" CreationDate="2018-10-24T15:39:23.707" UserId="5477" Comment="added 14 characters in body" Text="Wondering if there are any original documents in text format (i.e. &quot;etexts&quot;) for any of the Southeast Asian or Polynesian mythology, folklore, or just general documents _written in their native language_ (that are also copyright free or permissive like creative commons license or similar). Some of the languages that these could be in which I'm not sure is:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Tagalog&#xD;&#xA;- Telugu&#xD;&#xA;- Tamil&#xD;&#xA;- Malay&#xD;&#xA;- Burmese&#xD;&#xA;- Hawaiian&#xD;&#xA;- Maori&#xD;&#xA;- Japanese (I'm just including anyways).&#xD;&#xA;- Thai&#xD;&#xA;- Indonesian&#xD;&#xA;- Javanese &#xD;&#xA;- Rongorongo&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Taking a look at something like [Tagalog literature](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Tagalog_literary_works) brings me to a sort of Tagalog script such as [this](https://web.archive.org/web/20070512165449/http://www.gutenberg.org:80/files/14794/14794-8.txt), but it is a bit messed up and in romanized Tagalog rather than [Tagalog script](https://www.omniglot.com/writing/tagalog.htm). I am looking for the original scripts instead of romanized versions. [Project Gutenberg](https://www.gutenberg.org/browse/languages/tl) doesn't have any in Tagalog script, for example, as far as I can tell." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17328" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5190" RevisionGUID="e763eaf6-d23f-4993-a75f-a9228c05e6ab" CreationDate="2018-10-24T23:20:03.273" UserId="5488" Text="The ancient egyptians believed the five parts of the soul were the Ba, the Ren, the Ib, the Ka, and the Sheut.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The *Ba* was the personality, whatever makes them unique.&#xD;&#xA; - The *Ren* was the secret name, the identity of the person. They still exist even if they die if their name is remembered.&#xD;&#xA; - The *Ka* was the life force that leaves the body when it dies. The *ka* can also power spells, but doing so can be deadly.&#xD;&#xA; - The *Ib* is the heart, the record of good and bad deeds. It is weighed against the feather of truth. If the spirit passes the test, it was blessed with Aruu, the Egyptian paradise. If it failed, the heart was eaten by Ammit the Devourer.&#xD;&#xA; - The lais the last part of the soul is the *Sheut*, or the shadow. It could be used to perform a shadow execration, even more powerful than a standard execration. It was the silhouette of the soul, a backup copy." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17330" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5189" RevisionGUID="9cdf791f-da0a-44ae-9235-68c885d3e31e" CreationDate="2018-10-25T07:56:00.587" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; added info" Text="Presumably, by &quot;the lion&quot;, you are referring to the Nemean Lion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Wrestler**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The poet Theocritus addresses this precise issue in the 25th of his *Idylls*. In it, Heracles (whom the Romans called Hercules) is narrating to his friend Phyleus an account of how he vanquished this creature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After Heracles had shot at the beast with arrows, in vain, the vexed animal furiously charged at the hero, who in turn took the raw olive-wood club he had brought from Mt Helicon and bashed the lion on the head as hard as he could, thus inadvertently smashing the club to pieces. The lion's head was dizzied by the darkness swimming in its eyes &quot;at the stunning shock to the brain's core&quot; and the monster drooped as its feet trembled. Heracles goes on to tell Phyleus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Seeing him [*the lion*] witless with whelming pain, before he could&#xD;&#xA;&gt; turn and breathe again, I was quick to advance and seize him by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; scruff of his iron neck, having thrown my bow to the ground with my&#xD;&#xA;&gt; embroidered quiver. Then I throttled him mightily with my stout hands,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reaching round from behind lest he lacerate my flesh with his claws. I&#xD;&#xA;&gt; set solidly my heels on his hind feet and pressed them down to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ground—my knees took care of his sides—until I raised his body up&#xD;&#xA;&gt; breathless in my arms and stretched it out.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The lion then died instantly.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other accounts Heracles cornered the beast in its own den, a cave with two openings, one of which cave-mouths Heracles blocked up, after which he somehow gained the advantage over his opponent to fight against it better in these close quarters rather than out in the open, such as in Theocritus. These accounts are nowhere near as detailed as that in *Idyll* 25, all saying simply that Heracles strangled the life out of this lion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think it safe to assume that at least two factors worked in the hero's favour, the foremost of which is that, since Heracles' strength was so prodigious, it was a significantly easier task for him to perform safely than it would have been for a more ordinary man. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Considering how Heracles fared against gods and giants, who may have been much larger and some of whom certainly were way more powerful than this lion, Heracles was probably several times stronger than this beast, and it may have been for him, by my guess, like handling a rag doll (aside from certain dangerous features of the like that you reference, i.e. its razor-sharp claws and teeth). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his *Thebaid*, Statius seems to imply that Heracles' body itself was so strong that he &quot;broke&quot; the lion &quot;against the strong pressure of his breast and... upon his own bones.&quot; (Meaning he broke lion's bones or some other part[s] of its body, or rather speaking more figuratively?)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The other factor, to augment the first, is that Heracles is supposed to have been a highly skilled wrestler, this idea coming from the assertion that he had received expert training in this discipline from a certain son of Hermes, either Autolycus (according to Apollodorus) or Harpalycus (according to Theocritus), the latter of whom &quot;no man could abide confidently in the ring even so much as to look upon him from aloof: so dread and horrible was the frown that sat on his grim visage.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Some Loss and Some Assistance**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notwithstanding the above, there is a later writer named Ptolemy Hephaestion who in his *New History*, takes up the Question's concern, telling us that Heracles lost one of his fingers in the fight against the Nemean Lion, so while he neither died nor, so far as we are informed, sustained further injury, he did not leave this battlefield fully unscathed. It is noteworthy that he seems to have learned from the experience, thereafter using the lion's own pelt to protect his body from further harm.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ptolemy uses the episode of Heracles' maiming as an aetiology (origin story) of particular burial practices, one of which is carried down for centuries afterwards in parts of Western European culture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Heracles, after the Nemean Lion had bitten off one of his fingers, had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; only nine... [T]here exists a tomb erected for this detached finger...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [O]ne can see at Sparta a stone lion erected on the tomb of the finger&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and which is the symbol of the power of the hero. It is since then&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that stone lions have likewise been erected on the tombs of other&#xD;&#xA;&gt; important people. Other authors give different explications of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lion statues.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a bonus miscellaneum, Ptolemy adds that, according to Alexander of Mindos, there was an Earth-born serpent which fought with Heracles against the Nemean Lion. As with many other offspring of Gaia, the Earth, this snake was probably huge, and should have made for a good wrestling tag-team member that Heracles could have used as a kind of rope without having to make any lethal contact with the monster lion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Attire**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Every piece of artwork that I have seen, that is at least 500 years old, portraying the contest with the Nemean Lion, depicts Heracles tussling with the beast while he is completely in the nude. (In virtually every ancient vase painting, his groin is precariously close to lion's snout.) Considering the concern raised by you, as well as by Heracles himself in the *Idylls*, this seems simply absurd, but it is probably merely a form of stylisation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Prior to this, Heracles had only ever fought one battle, against the Orchomenians, at which he was outfitted by Hephaestus, the metalworker of the gods, with a golden breastplate. The fight with the Nemean Lion is the only other battle in which he would have needed this piece of protection since he hereafter wears the lion-skin as armour. It would make sense that he wore the breastplate in the struggle against the lion, which of course would have guarded only part of his body.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond these speculations, and the hero's own quite detailed report in Theocritus, we can only imagine that Heracles was altogether so lucky or simply that good an animal-wrangler.      " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17331" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1784" RevisionGUID="be52c9ea-5069-4e34-93ea-ede8a09eb362" CreationDate="2018-10-25T14:15:54.290" UserId="1405" Comment="Replaced dead link with a version from the Internet Archive" Text="[Thalia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalia_(Muse)), the Greek muse of comedy, is also often seen holding a shepherd's crook, as in [this](https://web.archive.org/web/20170404122745/http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Mythology/Thalia.html) picture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As DisturbedNeo said, in Egyptian mythology it (along with a flail) is held by pharaohs as symbols of power, and is thus held by Osiris as a &quot;pharaoh of the dead&quot;." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17332" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1784" RevisionGUID="be52c9ea-5069-4e34-93ea-ede8a09eb362" CreationDate="2018-10-25T14:15:54.290" Comment="Proposed by 1405 approved by 2774, 967 edit id of 1681" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17333" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5191" RevisionGUID="54673450-daff-47d8-8b3e-5244644ccc2b" CreationDate="2018-10-25T18:32:26.747" UserId="2682" Text="It appears to be primarily by someone else ritually bloodying up the murderer's hands.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only place I have found a scene actually describing the ritual of purification from murder in Greek mythology is Book 4, Lines 685-718 of Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautica*, in which Medea and Jason are welcomed by Circe upon her island of Aeaea. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She seems to know intuitively that they are guilty of murder, though she does not appear to be bothered about whose murder it is until after the ceremony she causes them to participate in. Afterwards, when she finds out all the details, again seemingly through intuition or some other supernatural means, she immediately ousts them from her home.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ritual is quite elaborate and at least one part of it surely is unique to the way Circe would have done it, as opposed to, say, Proetus or Eurystheus. Circe's attendants were Naiads (water-nymphs) and they participated in the ceremony, though perhaps they were not crucial to its efficacy or legitimation: they carried out of the house the defiling refuse which had remained from the ritual. Proetus and Eurystheus probably did not have access to Naiads.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In these murder stories it seems almost customary for the murderer to be banished from his homeland or to flee, becoming a suppliant in a foreign city or land. According to Apollonius, suppliants possessed rights protected by Zeus Hicesius, the &quot;Cleanser,&quot; who seems to have expected these suppliants to be granted the hospitality of a purification sacrifice in the place in which they felt safe enough to request such succour. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In obedience to this ordinance, on behalf of Jason and Medea, Circe &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; began to offer the sacrifice with which ruthless suppliants are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cleansed from guilt when they approach the altar. First, to atone for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the murder still unexpiated, she held above their heads the young of a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sow whose dugs yet swelled from the fruit of the womb,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;apparently a newborn piglet, whose throat she slit. Jason's and Medea's hands were then drenched in or sprinkled with the blood dripping directly from the piglet's neck. It was upon their hands presumably because those were the instruments which had been used to commit the crime.&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then with further propitiating libations [drink offerings], she&#xD;&#xA;&gt; called upon Zeus Hicesius, the protector of blood-guilty suppliants.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And all the polluted scourings were gathered and carried out of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; palace by the attendant Naiads who did her housework. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; But she herself stayed inside by the hearth, burning wineless&#xD;&#xA;&gt; offerings and cakes of flour, oil and honey, and offering up prayers&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that the terrible Erinyes [Furies] would cease from their wrath, that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zeus himself would look kindly on them, and show gentleness to them both,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whether the hands they lifted up to him were stained with a kinsman's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; or a stranger's blood. Only when all was accomplished did she make&#xD;&#xA;&gt; them get up.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Medea and Jason were then seated on polished chairs, but after a brief conversation in which Circe discovered the full extent of the couple's misadventures, Circe summarily shooed them out of her home. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17334" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5192" RevisionGUID="7e258a12-3bfc-41b8-8824-a9750f3cfe9a" CreationDate="2018-10-25T23:47:59.953" UserId="5477" Text="Wondering what the languages are where there do exist resources of folktales / fairy tales written down in the native language. I think I may have found some in Celtic [here](http://sulis.ucc.ie/cdi/textarchive-results2.php?keywords=R), such as [this](https://archive.org/details/raltadenspirleaa00laoi/page/94):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am not sure what it says, but it is at least something in the native language, and it looks like a poem of some sort.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm wondering where there exist collections, lists, or other organized groupings of texts in native languages, and what the native languages are. I am pretty sure nothing like this exists for any Native American group (though if one does I would love to know). I also don't think any exist for Papua New Guinea groups or African tribes. But some may exist for larger African groups like countries. Some may exist for Japanese or Chinese. Some may exist for other European groups. Basically wondering what records have been saved somewhere. Then once I know that I can at least narrow down my search to find examples of the text.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/y0eST.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17335" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5192" RevisionGUID="7e258a12-3bfc-41b8-8824-a9750f3cfe9a" CreationDate="2018-10-25T23:47:59.953" UserId="5477" Text="Folktales or Fairy Tales in Native Language (if any exist anywhere)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17336" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5192" RevisionGUID="7e258a12-3bfc-41b8-8824-a9750f3cfe9a" CreationDate="2018-10-25T23:47:59.953" UserId="5477" Text="|folklore|fairy-tales|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17337" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5192" RevisionGUID="c3e4ea9b-af27-4c3e-bc2f-c96fb14c46df" CreationDate="2018-10-25T23:53:27.917" UserId="5477" Comment="added 355 characters in body" Text="Wondering what the languages are where there do exist resources of folktales / fairy tales written down in the native language. I think I may have found some in Celtic [here](http://sulis.ucc.ie/cdi/textarchive-results2.php?keywords=R), such as [this](https://archive.org/details/raltadenspirleaa00laoi/page/94):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am not sure what it says, but it is at least something in the native language, and it looks like a poem of some sort.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm wondering where there exist collections, lists, or other organized groupings of texts in native languages, and what the native languages are. I am pretty sure nothing like this exists for any Native American group (though if one does I would love to know). I also don't think any exist for Papua New Guinea groups or African tribes. But some may exist for larger African groups like countries. Some may exist for Japanese or Chinese. Some may exist for other European groups. Basically wondering what records have been saved somewhere. Then once I know that I can at least narrow down my search to find examples of the text.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the main question is:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The languages that have preserved fairytales or folktales _somewhere_ online or offline.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The secondary question which would be nice to know but is probably a lot of extra work and so isn't necessary is:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where the links are to each of these places (libraries for physical books, or otherwise online).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Just knowing _what_ is available will make it easier to know where to look for stuff.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All in the original language, not English.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/y0eST.png&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17338" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5193" RevisionGUID="4b8b5c54-445e-4573-b0c0-0a3312344eec" CreationDate="2018-10-26T00:07:19.003" UserId="5329" Text="Did Zeus give Pandora the box?&#xD;&#xA;So the version I'm most familiar with is that  Epimetheus had a box containing the evils of the world, but in some other versions e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOewVh0umdM  &#xD;&#xA;Zeus had the box all along so why not just open the box and unleash those things upon mankind?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17339" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5193" RevisionGUID="4b8b5c54-445e-4573-b0c0-0a3312344eec" CreationDate="2018-10-26T00:07:19.003" UserId="5329" Text="Did Zeus give Pandora the box?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17340" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5193" RevisionGUID="4b8b5c54-445e-4573-b0c0-0a3312344eec" CreationDate="2018-10-26T00:07:19.003" UserId="5329" Text="|greek|myth-identification|zeus|pandora|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17341" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5189" RevisionGUID="2ae1d708-0e24-40b6-842c-9bc9a8a4048f" CreationDate="2018-10-26T00:47:33.593" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="Presumably, by &quot;the lion&quot;, you are referring to the Nemean Lion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Wrestler**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The poet Theocritus addresses this precise issue in the 25th of his *Idylls*. In it, Heracles (whom the Romans called Hercules) is narrating to his friend Phyleus an account of how he vanquished this creature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After Heracles had shot at the beast with arrows, in vain, the vexed animal furiously charged at the hero, who in turn took the raw olive-wood club he had brought from Mt Helicon and bashed the lion on the head as hard as he could, thus inadvertently smashing the club to pieces. The lion's head was dizzied by the darkness swimming in its eyes &quot;at the stunning shock to the brain's core&quot; and the monster drooped as its feet trembled. Heracles goes on to tell Phyleus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Seeing him [*the lion*] witless with whelming pain, before he could&#xD;&#xA;&gt; turn and breathe again, I was quick to advance and seize him by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; scruff of his iron neck, having thrown my bow to the ground with my&#xD;&#xA;&gt; embroidered quiver. Then I throttled him mightily with my stout hands,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reaching round from behind lest he lacerate my flesh with his claws. I&#xD;&#xA;&gt; set solidly my heels on his hind feet and pressed them down to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ground—my knees took care of his sides—until I raised his body up&#xD;&#xA;&gt; breathless in my arms and stretched it out.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The lion then died instantly.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other accounts Heracles cornered the beast in its own den, a cave with two openings, one of which cave-mouths Heracles blocked up, after which he somehow gained the advantage over his opponent to fight against it better in these close quarters rather than out in the open, such as in Theocritus. These accounts are nowhere near as detailed as that in *Idyll* 25, all saying simply that Heracles strangled the life out of this lion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think it safe to assume that at least two factors worked in the hero's favour, the foremost of which is that, since Heracles' strength was so prodigious, it was a significantly easier task for him to perform safely than it would have been for a more ordinary man. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Considering how Heracles fared against gods and giants, who may have been much larger and some of whom certainly were way more powerful than this lion, Heracles was probably several times stronger than this beast, and it may have been for him, by my guess, like handling a rag doll (aside from certain dangerous features of the like that you reference, i.e. its razor-sharp claws and teeth). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his *Thebaid*, Statius seems to imply that Heracles' body itself was so strong that he &quot;broke&quot; the lion &quot;against the strong pressure of his breast and... upon his own bones.&quot; (Meaning he broke the lion's bones or some other part[s] of its body, or rather speaking more figuratively?)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The other factor, to augment the first, is that Heracles is supposed to have been a highly skilled wrestler, this idea coming from the assertion that he had received expert training in this discipline from a certain son of Hermes, either Autolycus (according to Apollodorus) or Harpalycus (according to Theocritus), the latter of whom &quot;no man could abide confidently in the ring even so much as to look upon him from aloof: so dread and horrible was the frown that sat on his grim visage.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Some Loss and Some Assistance**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notwithstanding the above, there is a later writer named Ptolemy Hephaestion who in his *New History*, takes up the Question's concern, telling us that Heracles lost one of his fingers in the fight against the Nemean Lion, so while he neither died nor, so far as we are informed, sustained further injury, he did not leave this battlefield fully unscathed. It is noteworthy that he seems to have learned from the experience, thereafter using the lion's own pelt to protect his body from further harm.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ptolemy uses the episode of Heracles' maiming as an aetiology (origin story) of particular burial practices, one of which is carried down for centuries afterwards in parts of Western European culture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Heracles, after the Nemean Lion had bitten off one of his fingers, had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; only nine... [T]here exists a tomb erected for this detached finger...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [O]ne can see at Sparta a stone lion erected on the tomb of the finger&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and which is the symbol of the power of the hero. It is since then&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that stone lions have likewise been erected on the tombs of other&#xD;&#xA;&gt; important people. Other authors give different explications of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lion statues.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a bonus miscellaneum, Ptolemy adds that, according to Alexander of Mindos, there was an Earth-born serpent which fought with Heracles against the Nemean Lion. As with many other offspring of Gaia, the Earth, this snake was probably huge, and should have made for a good wrestling tag-team member that Heracles could have used as a kind of rope without having to make any lethal contact with the monster lion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Attire**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Every piece of artwork that I have seen, that is at least 500 years old, portraying the contest with the Nemean Lion, depicts Heracles tussling with the beast while he is completely in the nude. (In virtually every ancient vase painting, his groin dangles precariously close to the lion's snout.) Considering the concern raised by you, as well as by Heracles himself in the *Idylls*, this seems simply absurd, but it is probably merely a form of stylisation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Prior to this, Heracles had only ever fought one battle, against the Orchomenians, at which he was outfitted by Hephaestus, the metalworker of the gods, with a golden breastplate. The fight with the Nemean Lion is the only other battle in which he would have needed this piece of protection since he hereafter wears the lion-skin as armour. It would make sense that he wore the breastplate in the struggle against the lion, which of course would have guarded only part of his body.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond these speculations, and the hero's own quite detailed report in Theocritus, we can only imagine that Heracles was altogether so lucky or simply that good an animal-wrangler.      " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17343" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5195" RevisionGUID="7fe6b131-c902-4904-8a16-6ef41ca53925" CreationDate="2018-10-26T06:39:25.743" UserId="2682" Text="It depends on the sense in which you mean that the river has power.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Water Itself, &amp; The Consequences of Breaking the Oath** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In concrete, bodily terms, one of the inherent properties of the stream's waters is their high toxicity. Quite aside from the late tradition which has Achilles gain his imperviability by being dipped, as a baby no less, into the Styx, Pausanias' record of the river's corrosiveness, at least in the portion of it which flows through Arcadia, tells us that dipping a baby into this ink-black water should kill the infant, likely quite painfully. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;Perhaps the water's quality changes upon its descent from Mt Aroania into the Underworld, where it has a somewhat different effect on the gods. If Zeus or any other deity breaks the Styx oath, the only manner in which he will die is that he will first be comatose for a year and then banished from the presence of the other immortals for a further nine years (maybe imprisoned in Tartarus all this while?). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Hesiod's *Theogony*, as part of the ratification of the Styx oath, the swearing deity had to offer a libation of Styx water (apparently to his own ancestors, themselves inhabiting the nether realm). It might be implied therefrom that the swearing god drinks some of this water. If he breaks his promise or is speaking a falsehood, it will be proven by the fact that he will thereafter be unable to eat, drink or breathe. &quot;[S]piritless and voiceless&quot; he will lie &quot;on a strewn bed... a heavy trance&quot; overshadowing him. &quot;But when he has spent a long year in his sickness&quot; a more difficult penance &quot;follows after the first.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For nine years he is cut off from the eternal gods and never joins&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their councils of their feasts, nine full years. But in the tenth year&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he comes again to join the assemblies of the deathless gods who live&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in the house of Olympus. Such an oath, then, did the gods appoint the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eternal and primaeval water of Styx to be.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The duration of excommunication seems to correspond to the duration of the Titans' War, which began with Zeus's campaign promise to the family that he would offer big promotions and other goodies to anyone who supported him against his father in the ensuing contest. As Hesiod says, and as yannis has pointed out in his Answer, Styx was the first to come forward to root for Zeus, and part of her reward was the elevation of her name to the height of importance which it gained as the greatest oath.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(&quot;[L]ater traditions,&quot; the Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology tells us, give us an inverse rendition of this deal between Styx and young Zeus. Acheron, who like Styx is one of the five main rivers of the land of the dead, originally dwelt in the upper world, where, during the Titans' War, he sided with the Titans, supplying them with drinking-water. After Zeus won the war, he muddied Acheron's waters and cast him into the Underworld so that he then began to flow under the Earth.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod does not explicitly mention or elaborate upon whether the gods actually drink part of the Styx libation and if they do, whether the one year of entrancement is directly induced by the same water still in their systems. Assuming that both things are so, we can only speculate as to whether this is some spiced-up mojo added to the water or if this is a natural property of the River of Abomination.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Power as Extrinsic**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the oath itself and its power, the point of Hesiod's narrative is that this power is a principle under which all of the Olympians placed themselves in much the same spirit as, e.g. certain modern governmental notions of &quot;the rule of law,&quot; when defined by the precept that everyone, including the head of the government (this being Zeus in the case in question), incurs a penalty for breaking the law. Therefore the principle itself is what has power, to the degree by which, as with any law, it is or can be enforced. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Neither Styx herself nor her river actually *does* anything if the Styx oath is broken. Her name is simply the invocation of the principle. That is, unless we conclude that the libation-water works in the manner in which I have suggested above. In that case then Styx does participate to a fair extent in the oath-breaker's chastisement.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond this, as far as oaths and lies are concerned, the only active role Styx seems to play is mentioned in passing in Book 8 of Statius' *Thebaid*, as the prosecutrix of the gods, where she &quot;accuses the gods of perjury&quot; while the other main Underworld rivers act as judges of the dead, assisting King Hades in his court. Once again the concept of the rule of the law, instituted by the community of the gods in general, would in this court seem to be the source of Styx's power rather than her possessing it in her own right.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Being the First and Foremost**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his *Metaphysics*, Aristotle posits the idea that Styx's power comes from her seniority in age and, consequently, from the fact that she is composed of water. In Book 1, while discussing different philosophical propositions regarding the original element(s) and which of them came first, he expounds upon the school of thought which insists that water is the primal element of existence, the oldest substance in the universe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There are some who think that the men of very ancient times, long&#xD;&#xA;&gt; before the present era, who first speculated about the gods, also held&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this same opinion about the primary entity. For they represented&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Oceanus and Tethys to be the parents of creation, and the oath of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gods to be by water—Styx, as they call it. Now what is most ancient is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; most revered, and what is most revered is what we swear by.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Iliad* 14, Homer does indeed trace the origin of the gods to Oceanus and Tethys, which is corroborated by Orphic Hymn 83 to Oceanus. Here he is said to be the progenitor of both the gods and humankind. Meanwhile Hesiod implies that he is the firstborn of all the children of the Sky if not also of the Earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod also tells us more explicitly that Styx is the eldest daughter (perhaps even the eldest of all the offspring) of Oceanus. Ten per cent of all the fresh water in the universe is allotted to Styx's stream, surely making her, next to her father, the mightiest of all the world's rivers, and also, like her father, a sizeable component of the superstructure of the cosmos. Regarding these aspects of her power, I am taking it for granted that she was simply born with all these strengths and qualities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**More of Zeus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, it seems to me that Styx is, at least in some loose sense, an echo or a metaphor for the dark or retributive side of Zeus' royal power. Styx's children—Victory, Zeal, Mighty Force, and Violence—through whom she herself got into Zeus's good graces, are simply personifications of prerogatives borne by the king of the gods. Calling them his personal bodyguard is merely an expression the Thunderer's own power.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The connection between Styx and Zeus themselves is subtler, as she bears more proximity to the Underworld version of Zeus, i.e. her direct supervisor Hades. Apollodorus, however, mentions a version of Persephone's maternity which acknowledges the closeness of the link between the king of the gods and the great Underworld river-goddess, wherein Zeus becomes Persephone's father by Styx rather than by Demeter. (Although Aaron Atsma does point out that this Styx mother of Persephone might only be the wrathful *Erinys* form of Demeter.)                   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/bY2ys.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17344" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5195" RevisionGUID="30bd4dfc-beb9-401d-bb38-6ae7265bdedf" CreationDate="2018-10-26T06:49:26.783" UserId="2682" Comment="tweaked a detail" Text="It depends on the sense in which you mean that the river has power.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Water Itself, &amp; The Consequences of Breaking the Oath** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In concrete, bodily terms, one of the inherent properties of the stream's waters is their high toxicity. Quite aside from the late tradition which has Achilles gain his imperviability by being dipped, as a baby no less, into the Styx, Pausanias' record of the river's corrosiveness, at least in the portion of it which flows through Arcadia, tells us that dipping a baby into this ink-black water should kill the infant, likely quite painfully. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;Perhaps the water's quality changes upon its descent from Mt Aroania into the Underworld, where it has a somewhat different effect on the gods. If Zeus or any other deity breaks the Styx oath, the only manner in which he will die is that he will first be comatose for a year and then banished from the presence of the other immortals for a further nine years (maybe imprisoned in Tartarus all this while?). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Hesiod's *Theogony*, as part of the ratification of the Styx oath, the swearing deity has to offer a libation of Styx water. Homer's *Iliad* implies that, like humans, the gods make this offering to their own ancestors, who, for them, are the Titans who inhabit the deepest parts of the nether realm. Meanwhile the *Theogony* might be implying that the swearing god drinks some of this Styx water. If he breaks his promise or is speaking a falsehood, it will be proven by the fact that he will thereafter be unable to eat, drink or breathe. &quot;[S]piritless and voiceless&quot; he will lie &quot;on a strewn bed... a heavy trance&quot; overshadowing him. &quot;But when he has spent a long year in his sickness&quot; a more difficult penance &quot;follows after the first.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For nine years he is cut off from the eternal gods and never joins&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their councils of their feasts, nine full years. But in the tenth year&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he comes again to join the assemblies of the deathless gods who live&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in the house of Olympus. Such an oath, then, did the gods appoint the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eternal and primaeval water of Styx to be.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The duration of excommunication seems to correspond to the duration of the Titans' War, which began with Zeus's campaign promise to the family that he would offer big promotions and other goodies to anyone who supported him against his father in the ensuing contest. As Hesiod says, and as yannis has pointed out in his Answer, Styx was the first to come forward to root for Zeus, and part of her reward was the elevation of her name to the height of importance which it gained as the greatest oath.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(&quot;[L]ater traditions,&quot; the Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology tells us, give us an inverse rendition of this deal between Styx and young Zeus. Acheron, who like Styx is one of the five main rivers of the land of the dead, originally dwelt in the upper world, where, during the Titans' War, he sided with the Titans, supplying them with drinking-water. After Zeus won the war, he muddied Acheron's waters and cast him into the Underworld so that he then began to flow under the Earth.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod does not explicitly mention or elaborate upon whether the gods actually drink part of the Styx libation and if they do, whether the one year of entrancement is directly induced by the same water still in their systems. Assuming that both things are so, we can only speculate as to whether this is some spiced-up mojo added to the water or if this is a natural property of the River of Abomination.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Power as Extrinsic**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the oath itself and its power, the point of Hesiod's narrative is that this power is a principle under which all of the Olympians placed themselves in much the same spirit as, e.g. certain modern governmental notions of &quot;the rule of law,&quot; when defined by the precept that everyone, including the head of the government (this being Zeus in the case in question), incurs a penalty for breaking the law. Therefore the principle itself is what has power, to the degree by which, as with any law, it is or can be enforced. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Neither Styx herself nor her river actually *does* anything if the Styx oath is broken. Her name is simply the invocation of the principle. That is, unless we conclude that the libation-water works in the manner in which I have suggested above. In that case then Styx does participate to a fair extent in the oath-breaker's chastisement.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond this, as far as oaths and lies are concerned, the only active role Styx seems to play is mentioned in passing in Book 8 of Statius' *Thebaid*, as the prosecutrix of the gods, where she &quot;accuses the gods of perjury&quot; while the other main Underworld rivers act as judges of the dead, assisting King Hades in his court. Once again the concept of the rule of the law, instituted by the community of the gods in general, would in this court seem to be the source of Styx's power rather than her possessing it in her own right.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Being the First and Foremost**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his *Metaphysics*, Aristotle posits the idea that Styx's power comes from her seniority in age and, consequently, from the fact that she is composed of water. In Book 1, while discussing different philosophical propositions regarding the original element(s) and which of them came first, he expounds upon the school of thought which insists that water is the primal element of existence, the oldest substance in the universe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There are some who think that the men of very ancient times, long&#xD;&#xA;&gt; before the present era, who first speculated about the gods, also held&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this same opinion about the primary entity. For they represented&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Oceanus and Tethys to be the parents of creation, and the oath of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gods to be by water—Styx, as they call it. Now what is most ancient is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; most revered, and what is most revered is what we swear by.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Iliad* 14, Homer does indeed trace the origin of the gods to Oceanus and Tethys, which is corroborated by Orphic Hymn 83 to Oceanus. Here he is said to be the progenitor of both the gods and humankind. Meanwhile Hesiod implies that he is the firstborn of all the children of the Sky if not also of the Earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod also tells us more explicitly that Styx is the eldest daughter (perhaps even the eldest of all the offspring) of Oceanus. Ten per cent of all the fresh water in the universe is allotted to Styx's stream, surely making her, next to her father, the mightiest of all the world's rivers, and also, like her father, a sizeable component of the superstructure of the cosmos. Regarding these aspects of her power, I am taking it for granted that she was simply born with all these strengths and qualities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**More of Zeus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, it seems to me that Styx is, at least in some loose sense, an echo or a metaphor for the dark or retributive side of Zeus' royal power. Styx's children—Victory, Zeal, Mighty Force, and Violence—through whom she herself got into Zeus's good graces, are simply personifications of prerogatives borne by the king of the gods. Calling them his personal bodyguard is merely an expression the Thunderer's own power.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The connection between Styx and Zeus themselves is subtler, as she bears more proximity to the Underworld version of Zeus, i.e. her direct supervisor Hades. Apollodorus, however, mentions a version of Persephone's maternity which acknowledges the closeness of the link between the king of the gods and the great Underworld river-goddess, wherein Zeus becomes Persephone's father by Styx rather than by Demeter. (Although Aaron Atsma does point out that this Styx mother of Persephone might only be the wrathful *Erinys* form of Demeter.)                   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/bY2ys.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17347" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5196" RevisionGUID="af672cb4-bb7e-4d23-ade8-913ee32fd587" CreationDate="2018-10-26T15:51:53.907" UserId="5247" Text="**Old Irish**&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;[**CELT: Corpus of ELectronic Texts**][1] A good but limited source of Irish texts of all ages.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Vanhamel Codecs**][2] A good guide to get a grounding of what text is where, what language period, and related publications (papers etc).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Formerly Mary Jones' Celtic Literature Collective** This used to be the best place to find Irish and Wesh language mythology with the original sources, sadly due to technical issues and hacking it's been down for a bit and may not come back up, i've put it hre in case it comes back in the future.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://celt.ucc.ie//&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.vanhamel.nl/codecs/Home" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17348" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5196" RevisionGUID="5b805a78-d17c-4fdb-b4e7-0a3dd341745e" CreationDate="2018-10-26T16:01:32.140" UserId="5247" Comment="added 741 characters in body" Text="**Old Irish**&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;[**CELT: Corpus of ELectronic Texts**][1] A good but limited source of Irish texts of all ages.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Vanhamel Codecs**][2] A good guide to get a grounding of what text is where, what language period, and related publications (papers etc).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Formerly Mary Jones' Celtic Literature Collective** This used to be the best place to find Irish and Wesh language mythology with the original sources, sadly due to technical issues and hacking it's been down for a bit and may not come back up, I've put it here in case it comes back in the future.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**The Mythological Cycle of Medieval Irish Literature, John Carey, 2018**][3] (€12) If you're willing to pay, this is when of best (and succinct) guides to medieval Irish mythology and literature, plus it's very up to date.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Ireland's Immortals, Mark Williams, 2016**][4] (~ £20) Carey's book is short for a reason, it's because this book came out before he could finish writing his. This tackles the same subject as Carey's book but is **far more in-depth** and if you wanted about 400 pages more of Carey's book (more of a pamphlet) then this book is what you need.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These books don't contain the original sources or translations but make for excellent guides and'll show you exactly what you need to know. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://celt.ucc.ie//&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.vanhamel.nl/codecs/Home&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://uccshop.ie/shop/mythological-cycle-medieval-irish-literature/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Irelands-Immortals-History-Gods-Irish/dp/0691157316" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17349" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5196" RevisionGUID="a4333e05-e597-4c47-8b8a-3ad631b83a0b" CreationDate="2018-10-26T16:17:53.303" UserId="5247" Comment="added 276 characters in body" Text="**Old Irish**&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;[**CELT: Corpus of ELectronic Texts**][1] A good but limited source of Irish texts of all ages.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Vanhamel Codecs**][2] A good guide to get a grounding of what text is where, what language period, and related publications (papers etc).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Formerly Mary Jones' Celtic Literature Collective** This used to be the best place to find Irish and Wesh language mythology with the original sources, sadly due to technical issues and hacking it's been down for a bit and may not come back up, I've put it here in case it comes back in the future.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Irish Script On Screen**][3] If you want to take it further than that and you're fluent in Sengoidelic and well versed in Insular script, Irish script on Screen has a growing collection of digitised Irish Manuscripts available online. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**The Mythological Cycle of Medieval Irish Literature, John Carey, 2018**][4] (€12) If you're willing to pay, this is when of best (and succinct) guides to medieval Irish mythology and literature, plus it's very up to date.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Ireland's Immortals, Mark Williams, 2016**][5] (~ £20) Carey's book is short for a reason, it's because this book came out before he could finish writing his. This tackles the same subject as Carey's book but is **far more in-depth** and if you wanted about 400 pages more of Carey's book (more of a pamphlet) then this book is what you need.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These books don't contain the original sources or translations but make for excellent guides and'll show you exactly what you need to know. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://celt.ucc.ie//&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.vanhamel.nl/codecs/Home&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.isos.dias.ie/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://uccshop.ie/shop/mythological-cycle-medieval-irish-literature/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Irelands-Immortals-History-Gods-Irish/dp/0691157316" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17350" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5195" RevisionGUID="ea026a7c-31fa-41e7-9cd8-b85eb864e94c" CreationDate="2018-10-26T22:54:05.720" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; tweaked a detail" Text="It depends on the sense in which you mean that the river has power.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Water Itself, &amp; The Consequences of Breaking the Oath** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In concrete, bodily terms, one of the inherent properties of the stream's waters is their high toxicity. Quite aside from the late tradition which has Achilles gain his imperviability by being dipped, as a baby no less, into the Styx, Pausanias' record of the river's corrosiveness, at least in the portion of it which flows through Arcadia, tells us that dipping a baby into this ink-black water should kill the infant, likely quite painfully. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;Perhaps the water's quality changes upon its descent from Mt Aroania into the Underworld, where it has a somewhat different effect on the gods. If Zeus or any other deity breaks the Styx oath, the only manner in which he will die is that he will first be comatose for a year and then be banished from the presence of the other immortals for a further nine years (maybe imprisoned in Tartarus all this while?). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Hesiod's *Theogony*, as part of the ratification of the Styx oath, the swearing deity has to offer a libation of Styx water. Homer's *Iliad* implies that, like humans, the gods make this offering to their own ancestors, who, for them, are Cronus and the Titans housed in the deepest parts of the nether realm. Meanwhile the *Theogony* might be implying that the swearing god drinks some of this Styx water. If he breaks his promise or is speaking a falsehood, it will be proven by the fact that he will thereafter be unable to eat, drink or breathe. &quot;[S]piritless and voiceless&quot; he will lie &quot;on a strewn bed... a heavy trance&quot; overshadowing him. &quot;But when he has spent a long year in his sickness&quot; a harsher penance &quot;follows after the first.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For nine years he is cut off from the eternal gods and never joins&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their councils or their feasts, nine full years. But in the tenth year&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he comes again to join the assemblies of the deathless gods who live&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in the house of Olympus. Such an oath, then, did the gods appoint the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eternal and primaeval water of Styx to be.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The duration of excommunication corresponds to the duration of the Titans' War, which began with Zeus's campaign promise to the family that he would offer big promotions and other goodies to anyone who supported him against his father in the ensuing contest. As Hesiod says, and as yannis has pointed out in his Answer, Styx was the first to come forward to root for Zeus, and part of her reward was the elevation of her name to the height of importance which it gained as the gravest oath.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(The Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology says that &quot;later traditions&quot; supply an inverse rendition of this deal between Styx and young Zeus. Acheron, who like Styx is one of the five main rivers of the land of the dead, originally dwelt in the upper world, where, during the Titans' War, he sided with the Titans, supplying them with drinking-water. After Zeus won the war, he muddied Acheron's waters and cast him into the Underworld, literally bringing his stream down to become an infernal river.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod does not explicitly mention or elaborate upon whether the gods actually drink part of the Styx libation and, if they do, whether the one year of entrancement is directly induced by the same water still coursing through their systems. Assuming that both things are so, we can only speculate as to whether this is some spiced-up mojo added to the water or if this is a natural property of the River of Abomination.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Power as Extrinsic**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the oath itself and its power, the point of Hesiod's narrative is that this power is a principle to which all of the Olympians subjected themselves in much the same spirit as, e.g. certain modern governmental notions of &quot;the rule of law,&quot; when defined as the precept that everyone, including the head of the government (this being Zeus in the case in question), incurs a penalty for breaking the law. Therefore the principle itself is what has power, to the degree by which, as with any law, it is or can be enforced. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Neither Styx herself nor her river actually *does* anything if the Styx oath is broken. Her name is simply the invocation of the principle. That is, unless we conclude that the libation-water works in the manner in which I have suggested above. In that case then Styx does participate to a fair extent in the oath-breaker's chastisement.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond this, as far as oaths and lies are concerned, the only active role Styx seems to play is mentioned in passing in Book 8 of Statius' *Thebaid*, as the prosecutrix of the gods, where she &quot;accuses the gods of perjury&quot; while the other main Underworld rivers act as judges of the dead, assisting King Hades in his court. Once again the concept of the rule of the law, instituted by the community of the gods in general, would in this court seem to be the source of Styx's power rather than her possessing it in her own right.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Being the First and Foremost**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his *Metaphysics*, Aristotle posits the idea that Styx's power comes from her seniority in age and, consequently, from the fact that she is composed of water. In Book 1, while discussing different philosophical propositions regarding the original element(s) and which of them came first, he expounds upon the school of thought which insists that water is the primal element of existence, the oldest substance in the universe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There are some who think that the men of very ancient times, long&#xD;&#xA;&gt; before the present era, who first speculated about the gods, also held&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this same opinion about the primary entity. For they represented&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Oceanus and Tethys to be the parents of creation, and the oath of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gods to be by water—Styx, as they call it. Now what is most ancient is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; most revered, and what is most revered is what we swear by.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Iliad* 14, Homer does indeed trace the origin of the gods to Oceanus and Tethys, which is corroborated by Orphic Hymn 83 to Oceanus. Here he is said to be the progenitor of both the gods and humankind. Meanwhile Hesiod implies that he is the firstborn of all the children of the Sky if not also of the Earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod also tells us more explicitly that Styx is the eldest daughter (perhaps even the eldest of all the offspring) of Oceanus. Ten percent of all the fresh water in the universe is allotted to Styx's stream, surely making her, next to her father, the mightiest of all the world's rivers, and also, like her father, a sizeable component of the superstructure of the cosmos. Regarding these aspects of her power, I am taking it for granted that she was simply born with all these strengths and qualities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**More of Zeus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, it seems to me that Styx is, at least in some loose sense, an echo or a metaphor for the dark or retributive side of Zeus' royal power. Styx's children—Victory, Zeal, Mighty Force, and Violence—through whom she herself got into Zeus's good graces, are simply personifications of prerogatives borne by the king of the gods. Calling them his personal bodyguard is merely an expression of the Thunderer's own power.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The connection between Styx and Zeus themselves is subtler, as she bears more proximity to the Underworld version of Zeus, i.e. her direct supervisor Hades. Apollodorus, however, mentions a version of Persephone's maternity which acknowledges the closeness of the link between the king of the gods and the great Underworld river-goddess, wherein Zeus becomes Persephone's father by Styx rather than by Demeter. (Although Aaron Atsma does point out that this Styx mother of Persephone might only be the wrathful *Erinys* form of Demeter.)                   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/bY2ys.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17351" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5191" RevisionGUID="7bbba65a-5e28-493a-ad7e-70acd58fdcdd" CreationDate="2018-10-27T04:48:20.597" UserId="2682" Comment="added info" Text="It appears to be primarily by someone else ritually bloodying up the murderer's hands.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only place I have found a scene actually describing the ritual of purification from murder in Greek mythology is Book 4, Lines 685-718 of Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautica*, in which Medea and Jason are welcomed by Circe upon her island of Aeaea. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She seems to know intuitively that they are guilty of murder, though she does not appear to be bothered about whose murder it is until after the ceremony she causes them to participate in. Afterwards, when she finds out all the details, again seemingly through intuition or some other supernatural means, she immediately ousts them from her home.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ritual is quite elaborate and at least one part of it surely is unique to the way Circe would have done it, as opposed to, say, Proetus or Eurystheus. Circe's attendants were Naiads (water-nymphs) and they participated in the ceremony, though perhaps they were not crucial to its efficacy or legitimation: they carried out of the house the defiling refuse which had remained from the ritual. Proetus and Eurystheus probably did not have access to Naiads.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In these murder stories it seems almost customary for the murderer to be banished from his homeland or to flee, becoming a suppliant in a foreign city or land. According to Apollonius, suppliants possessed rights protected by Zeus Hicesius, the &quot;Cleanser,&quot; who seems to have expected these suppliants to be granted the hospitality of a purification sacrifice in the place in which they felt safe enough to request such succour. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In obedience to this ordinance, on behalf of Jason and Medea, Circe &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; began to offer the sacrifice with which ruthless suppliants are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cleansed from guilt when they approach the altar. First, to atone for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the murder still unexpiated, she held above their heads the young of a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sow whose dugs yet swelled from the fruit of the womb,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;apparently a newborn piglet, whose throat she slit. Jason's and Medea's hands were then drenched in or sprinkled with the blood dripping directly from the piglet's neck. It was upon their hands presumably because those were the instruments which had been used to commit the crime.&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then with further propitiating libations [drink offerings], she&#xD;&#xA;&gt; called upon Zeus Hicesius, the protector of blood-guilty suppliants.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And all the polluted scourings were gathered and carried out of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; palace by the attendant Naiads who did her housework. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; But she herself stayed inside by the hearth, burning wineless&#xD;&#xA;&gt; offerings and cakes of flour, oil and honey, and offering up prayers&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that the terrible Erinyes [Furies] would cease from their wrath, that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zeus himself would look kindly on them, and show gentleness to them both,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whether the hands they lifted up to him were stained with a kinsman's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; or a stranger's blood. Only when all was accomplished did she make&#xD;&#xA;&gt; them get up.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Medea and Jason were then seated on polished chairs, but after a brief conversation in which Circe discovered the full extent of the couple's misadventures, Circe summarily shooed them out of her home. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The labours performed by Heracles were special contrivances which different deities with conflicting motives orchestrated for him to accomplish. The main divinities in question here are Hera and Zeus. Hera wanted any means she could employ to get Heracles killed. According to Diodorus Siculus' *Library of History* 4.9.5, Zeus, on the other hand, way back when Heracles was still a baby and before he had even committed any ill, had made a deal with Hera that, after Eurystheus and Heracles had grown up, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Heracles should serve Eurystheus and perform twelve labours, these to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; be whatever Eursytheus should prescribe, and that after he had done so&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he should receive the gift of immortality.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On his own end, meanwhile—even though in a sense these aspects of his life had been planned out for him beforehand—Heracles himself found out, via instructions from Apollo, that he would become immortal if he enslaved himself to Eurystheus for a certain period of time and performed the tasks to which this king would assign him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore, while there is certainly a strong connection between the labours and his family's murder, it does not appear that Heracles was especially obligated to engage in these actions, or that he did these deeds under much duress, if any. And yes, he ended up doing these things because Hera hated him, but there was no official directive from anyone which said that the scorn of the goddess particularly required anything of him for his purification. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Apollodorus (*Library* 2.4.12), by the time that Heracles was receiving the stipulations for his acquisition of immortality, he had exiled himself from Thebes and already been purified by King Thespius of Thespiae. The most direct link made here to Hera's sentiments about him is that the Oracle of Delphi renamed him. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Pythian priestess then first called him Heracles, for hitherto he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was called Alcides,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; meaning &quot;Offspring of Alcaeus,&quot; Alcaeus having been Alcides' grandfather. Renaming him Heracles, meaning &quot;Hera's Glory,&quot;  was apparently supposed to appease Hera. It does not seem to have worked. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17352" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5189" RevisionGUID="ec21730f-1046-4e89-86a9-0ebc20bd937c" CreationDate="2018-10-27T04:59:18.237" UserId="2682" Comment="tweaked a couple of details" Text="Presumably, by &quot;the lion&quot;, you are referring to the Nemean Lion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Wrestler**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The poet Theocritus addresses this precise issue in the 25th of his *Idylls*. In it, Heracles (whom the Romans called Hercules) is narrating to his friend Phyleus an account of how he vanquished this creature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After Heracles had, in vain, shot at the beast with arrows, the vexed animal furiously charged at the hero, who in turn took the raw olive-wood club he had brought from Mt Helicon and bashed the lion on the head as hard as he could, thus inadvertently smashing the club to pieces. The lion's head was dizzied by the darkness swimming in its eyes &quot;at the stunning shock to the brain's core&quot; and the monster drooped as its feet trembled. Heracles goes on to tell Phyleus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Seeing him [*the lion*] witless with whelming pain, before he could&#xD;&#xA;&gt; turn and breathe again, I was quick to advance and seize him by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; scruff of his iron neck, having thrown my bow to the ground with my&#xD;&#xA;&gt; embroidered quiver. Then I throttled him mightily with my stout hands,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reaching round from behind lest he lacerate my flesh with his claws. I&#xD;&#xA;&gt; set solidly my heels on his hind feet and pressed them down to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ground—my knees took care of his sides—until I raised his body up&#xD;&#xA;&gt; breathless in my arms and stretched it out.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The lion then died instantly.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other accounts Heracles cornered the beast in its own den, a cave with two openings, one of which cave-mouths Heracles blocked up, after which he somehow gained the advantage over his opponent to fight against it better in these close quarters rather than out in the open, such as in Theocritus. These accounts are nowhere near as detailed as that in *Idyll* 25, all saying simply that Heracles strangled the life out of this lion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think it safe to assume that at least two factors worked in the hero's favour, the foremost of which is that, since Heracles' strength was so prodigious, it was a significantly easier task for him to perform safely than it would have been for a more ordinary man. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Considering how Heracles fared against gods and giants, who may have been much larger and some of whom certainly were way more powerful than this lion, Heracles was probably several times stronger than this beast, and it may have been for him, by my guess, like handling a rag doll (aside from certain dangerous features of the like that you reference, i.e. its razor-sharp claws and teeth). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his *Thebaid*, Statius seems to imply that Heracles' body itself was so strong that he &quot;broke&quot; the lion &quot;against the strong pressure of his breast and... upon his own bones.&quot; (Meaning he broke the lion's bones or some other part[s] of its body, or rather speaking more figuratively?)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The other factor, to augment the first, is that Heracles is supposed to have been a highly skilled wrestler, this idea coming from the assertion that he had received expert training in this discipline from a certain son of Hermes, either Autolycus (according to Apollodorus) or Harpalycus (according to Theocritus), the latter of whom &quot;no man could abide confidently in the ring even so much as to look upon him from aloof: so dread and horrible was the frown that sat on his grim visage.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Some Loss and Some Assistance**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notwithstanding the above, there is a later writer named Ptolemy Hephaestion who in his *New History*, takes up the Question's concern, telling us that Heracles lost one of his fingers in the fight against the Nemean Lion, so while he neither died nor, so far as we are informed, sustained further injury, he did not leave this battlefield fully unscathed. It is noteworthy that he seems to have learned from the experience, thereafter using the lion's own pelt to protect his body from further harm.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ptolemy uses the episode of Heracles' maiming as an aetiology (origin story) of particular burial practices, one of which is carried down for centuries afterwards in parts of Western European culture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Heracles, after the Nemean Lion had bitten off one of his fingers, had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; only nine... [T]here exists a tomb erected for this detached finger...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [O]ne can see at Sparta a stone lion erected on the tomb of the finger&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and which is the symbol of the power of the hero. It is since then&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that stone lions have likewise been erected on the tombs of other&#xD;&#xA;&gt; important people. Other authors give different explications of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lion statues.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a bonus miscellaneum, Ptolemy adds that, according to Alexander of Mindos, there was an Earth-born serpent which fought with Heracles against the Nemean Lion. As with many other offspring of Gaia, the Earth, this snake was probably huge, and should have made for a good wrestling tag-team member that Heracles could have used as a kind of rope without having to make any lethal contact with the monster lion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Attire**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Every piece of artwork that I have seen, that is at least 500 years old, portraying the contest with the Nemean Lion, depicts Heracles tussling with the beast while he is completely in the nude. (In virtually every ancient vase painting of the scene, his groin dangles precariously close to the lion's snout.) Considering the concern raised by you, as well as by Heracles himself in the *Idylls*, this seems simply absurd, but it is probably merely a form of stylisation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Prior to this, Heracles had only ever fought one battle, against the Orchomenians, at which he was outfitted by Hephaestus, the metalworker of the gods, with a golden breastplate. The fight with the Nemean Lion is the only other battle in which he would have needed this piece of protection since he hereafter wears the lion-skin as armour. It would make sense that he wore the breastplate in the struggle against the lion, which of course would have guarded only part of his body.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond these speculations, and the hero's own quite detailed report in Theocritus, we can only imagine that Heracles was altogether so lucky or simply that good an animal-wrangler.      " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17353" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5197" RevisionGUID="14ae7483-16b7-49a5-970c-b52743d8b553" CreationDate="2018-10-27T16:50:04.850" UserId="5497" Text="A question regarding John Gast's American Progress? Is this Liberty or Columbia? If Columbia, were other Columbia's of the age dressed so provocatively? If Liberty, why some Liberties dressed to cover up so much, others so revealing? Bottom line I'm wondering why Gast didn't clearly make his central figure a Columbia, then dress her (modestly) like all of the other Columbia's I see online?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17354" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5197" RevisionGUID="14ae7483-16b7-49a5-970c-b52743d8b553" CreationDate="2018-10-27T16:50:04.850" UserId="5497" Text="The Dress of the Columbia/Liberty figure in John Gast's American Progress" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17355" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5197" RevisionGUID="14ae7483-16b7-49a5-970c-b52743d8b553" CreationDate="2018-10-27T16:50:04.850" UserId="5497" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17356" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5198" RevisionGUID="14467458-d6c8-49b8-b48a-783e8c9de3b1" CreationDate="2018-10-28T06:11:58.543" UserId="2682" Text="**Apparently yes, their weapons could be used against them, although I have only ever encountered one example of this in the ancient sources,**&lt;sup&gt;✭&lt;/sup&gt; **specifically in Apollodorus' *Library* 1.6.3**, wherein Zeus is engaged in a fierce struggle against the humongous, many-armed monster Typhon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus' two means of battling the monster are his thunderbolts, which he uses as long-range missiles, and an unbreakable sickle, which he uses to lash out at close quarters. When the fight brings the two combatants to Mt Casius in Syria, Typhon is by now severely wounded. Nonetheless he uses the snake-like coils of his many arms to entwine Zeus so that he wrests the sickle from the god's grasp and uses the weapon to tear out the sinews or tendons from the Olympian king's hands and feet, thus paralysing him. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus is eventually rescued from this ignominious capture by his sons Hermes and Aegipan. The sickle is never again mentioned. Incidentally an unbreakable sickle appears one other time in the same book, earlier on, towards its beginning (1.1.4). There, prior to Zeus's birth, his father the Titan Cronus is supplied by Gaia, the Earth, with this device in order for him to castrate her husband Uranus, the Sky. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is tempting to see a connection between Cronus's sickle and the one used later by his son, but we can only speculate as to whether they are one and the same, since we are not granted such a detail. There is also no occurrence, as far as I can tell, of a story in which Poseidon's Trident is ever handled by anyone other than him; nor of a myth in which Zeus's thunderbolts are disapprovingly in someone else's possession.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only occurrences I know of someone else handling Zeus's thunder and lightning (apart from the manufacturers thereof) are: when Zeus let his baby son Zagreus play with the thunderbolts and sit on his throne—from which Zeus suffered no harm at all; and when Zeus was pelting Typhon with thunderbolts. Some of the ones from Typhon's battle fell astray into the sea, where they were received by the marine gods Poseidon and Nereus. Nonnus' *Dionysiaca* Book 1 tells us simply that the weapons &quot;fell into the welcoming hand of Poseidon&quot;, after which we never hear of them again; or that &quot;old Nereus brought the brine-soaked bolts to the ford of the Cronian Sea [*apparently the North Sea, by Northern Europe*], and dedicated them as an offering to Zeus.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both Zeus's thunderbolts and Poseidon's Trident seem to me to be merely concretised expressions of the powers of these gods. In ancient art they are depicted wielding these attributes of theirs in much the same way that modern professional wrestlers and comicbook superheroes wear colourful costumes: it is so that they can be easily and correctly identified by the audience which is consuming this media. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the narrative world of the mythology, my guess would be that these particular weapons were designed such that only by their rightful owners possessed the ability to use them. As far as Zeus' thunderbolts are concerned, therefore, I suppose that I agree with the premise proposed in the quote from your Question, even though Ethan and I are merely speculating here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I do not, however, perceive the same issue with Medusa's head to be quite as simple, for various reasons, such as the fact that Medusa was not originally a weapon owned by Athena, not to mention the fact that the whole tale which has Athena angrily metamorphosing a beautiful maiden Medusa into a monster Gorgon seems to be the invention of late classical poets. In the more ancient accounts Medusa is simply born a Gorgon. At any rate, as referenced in your inquiry, that is a whole other Question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;✭ *I have confined my Answer to Greco-Roman sources since your Question seems to be specifically about Greek mythology.*&lt;/sub&gt;        " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17357" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5199" RevisionGUID="05d599ef-0ebd-4604-891e-e8850df7f3fa" CreationDate="2018-10-28T14:16:31.353" UserId="201" Text="Whatever version of the myth you've heard is missing critical parts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Prometheus (meaning &quot;before-thought&quot;), a Titan, was given the job of creating humanity. But humans were left in the dark and cold and treated poorly. When Prometheus complained, the gods blew him off, so he dipped a reed into the sun and brought fire to humans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The gods were furious about this, because now humans could cook their food, have light to travel at night, create settlements, etc. and basically not be slaves utterly dependent on the gods. So they wanted to punish Prometheus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They punished him in two ways. One was punishing him personally, by chaining him to a rock in the middle of the ocean where a giant eagle tore at his liver every day. His liver regrew overnight, and the eagle would start again in the morning. He was eventually rescued by Hercules.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The other punishment was against his overall house, his family. Prometheus had a brother, Epithemeus (&quot;after-thought&quot;). The gods would give him a wife.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They created *Pandora,* meaning &quot;all-gifted.&quot; Each god/dess gave her some great attribute as a gift: Aphrodite made her beautiful, Hermes made her bold and clever, Athena gave her the knowledge of needlework, and so on. They made her irresistible to dumb, impetuous Epithemeus. And they made sure that she had an insatiable curiosity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus sent Pandora to Epithemeus as a gift to be his wife. Even though Prometheus had warned him to beware of Greek gods bearing gifts, Epithemeus accepted Pandora. As a wedding gift, the gods also gave Pandora the famous box/jar, but told her &quot;You can never open it.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Obviously she eventually did, because the gods had set up the trap that way. In the jar they had deliberately placed little flying stinging spirits which carried evils: plague, pestilence, hard work, etc. (The evils were not just casually stored there. They were put there *on purpose* so Pandora would release them.) When she opened the jar, all the evil spirits flew out and zipped off to bring misery to humanity. She slammed the jar shut just in time to keep Hope from flying off, so Hope still remained to alleviate humanity's misery.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So yes, strictly speaking Zeus (and the other gods) gave her the box/jar, but the jar didn't already exist. It was devised as a punishment, and Pandora was the unwitting patsy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Direct source: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theoi.com/Heroine/Pandora.html&quot;&gt;Theoi's article on Pandora,&lt;/a&gt; &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanPrometheus.html&quot;&gt;Theoi's article on Prometheus.&lt;/a&gt; Also taken from Evslin/Evslin/Hoopes, the D'Aulaires, and various other retellings of the myth I've heard over the years. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17358" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5200" RevisionGUID="11bcacb6-39b7-41ab-98f9-4e0130caa863" CreationDate="2018-10-28T19:25:25.313" UserId="5503" Text="One lesser known but quite interesting amputation myth is the Old Norse myth of Aurvandill the Bold, as told in Snorri Sturluson’s *Prose Edda*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Thor […] had waded from the north over Icy Stream and had borne Aurvandill in a basket on his back from the north out of Jötunheim. And […] one of Aurvandill’s toes had stuck out of the basket, and became frozen; wherefore Thor broke it off and cast it up into the heavens, and made thereof the star called Aurvandill’s Toe.” &#xD;&#xA;(source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurvandil)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The star is also known in Old English as *Éarendel* (mentioned in Cynewulfs poem Crist I, which inspired Tolkien to write *The Hobbit* and *The Lord of the Rings*), and probably also in Gothic as *Auzandil* (as mentioned in the Gotica Bononiensia, if P. A. Kerkhof’s reading is correct). Both names are probable cognates of the Old Norse Aurvandill, but in these two cases only the star is mentioned without referring to the amputation story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A similar amputation story does exist though, but without referring to a star, as told about Thorstein in the *Þorsteins þáttr bæjarmagns*. In this story, it is Thorstein himself (a hero with close similarities to the god Thor in other myths) who crosses an ice cold river and has to cut off his own frost-bitten toe afterwards.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Saxo Grammaticus’ *Gesta Danorum*, Horwendillus (the father of the Danish prince Amlethus — in post-Shakespearean times better known as Hamlet), isn’t an amputee himself. However, during a fight on an island he cuts of the foot of his enemy, the Norse king Collerus." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17359" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5201" RevisionGUID="6fbf5e40-ae56-4acd-a052-387d82c1e677" CreationDate="2018-10-28T22:26:21.230" UserId="1308" Text="The Chick Publications tract &quot;[Are Roman Catholics Christians?][1]&quot; has all sorts of questionable content (including many fundamental misunderstandings of Roman Catholicism), but there is one historical claim that I was unsure of. When talking about the letters IHS on the Eucharist, they imply that it stands for the letters of three Egyptian gods.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Egypt, the &quot;IHS&quot; stood for their gods…Isis, Horus, Seb.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Their citation for this is *The Two Babylons*, a book published by their organization, so I'm a little skeptical of the source.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did ancient Egypt use this abbreviation for the names of their gods?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;\* See [What does IHS stand for on the Eucharist?](https://christianity.stackexchange.com/q/66868/16688) on Christianity Stack Exchange for what it actually stands for.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.chick.com/m/reading/tracts/readtract.asp?stk=0071" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17360" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5201" RevisionGUID="6fbf5e40-ae56-4acd-a052-387d82c1e677" CreationDate="2018-10-28T22:26:21.230" UserId="1308" Text="Did ancient Egypt use the abbreviation IHS for &quot;Isis, Horus, and Seb&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17361" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5201" RevisionGUID="6fbf5e40-ae56-4acd-a052-387d82c1e677" CreationDate="2018-10-28T22:26:21.230" UserId="1308" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17362" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1982" RevisionGUID="5a4ff592-b8d9-4609-aecc-ba193f1415f3" CreationDate="2018-10-29T08:14:38.770" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected some details" Text="**On the Importance of the Wine-God**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dionysos-Bacchus may not have been the most powerful, most important deity of Greece or Rome, nevertheless, for cultures to whom feasts, agriculture and procreation were of no small significance, such as were those of the Greeks and the Romans (and would still be the case today), the god was certainly integral to everyday life. Wine is actually a nicely concise shorthand or connector for all these aspects of life, because its growth requires fertility, which affects cultivation efforts in general; parties and other such communal gatherings in numerous places the world over, for millennia, have generally been thought to be drab or uncool sans alcohol; and there have always been strong connections between the fertility of the earth and the activities of reproduction for both human beings and animals. Hence the realm presided over by Dionysos-Bacchus absorbs all these aspects of daily and communal life into itself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason he stands somewhat aloof from the rest of the pantheon(s) is because he represents the removal of inhibition which many of the more conscientious, civic-bound deities represent. Where they are urban, proper and self-contained, he is wild, alien and unrestricted. Where they would enjoin clear thinking, he is the advocate for the distorted state of mind required in order to escape the mundane drudgery of everyday existence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**An Imported Rendition of Himself**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notwithstanding those facts, I would certainly agree that, as understood in the mainstream Olympian and Roman religions, the god of wine and drunkenness is certainly a glaring contradiction for an ascetic, vegetarian lifestyle as envisioned in Orphism: the way of the mystic Orpheus, who, most ironically, in one version of his death story, was violently dismembered by revelling followers of Dionysos who were upset with him for refusing to participate in their orgy because he was in grief mourning the loss of his wife!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Certain ancient Greek writers do explicitly distinguish the mainstream Dionysos from the one venerated in the cult of Orpheus, saying precisely what you're asking about: that the Orphic Dionysos is a foreign deity who was imported—stolen, even—from Africa or the Near East and transposed onto the Greek (and thus later Roman) wine-god. Orpheus is supposed to have copied the mysteries of the Egyptian Osiris and brought them into Greece in a different form as the mysteries of Dionysos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herodotus writes that the man who did this was the great prophet Melampus, a descendant of Aigyptos [Aegyptus], the king from whom Egypt got its name. In [Book 2 of his *Historiai*](http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.2.ii.html), &quot;Histories,&quot; Herodotus recalls the journey made by Aigyptos' cousin, the Tyro-Sidonian prince Kadmos [Cadmus], in search of his sister Europa, after whom Europe was named; and how Melampus learned the Canaanite ways of Dionysos mostly from Kadmos and the Canaanites with he whom he came into Boiotia [Boeotia]. (According to the Egyptian writer Nonnus, these Canaanites were originally Egyptians who had migrated to Canaan from Memphis with Kadmos' father Agenor. Kadmos and Europa are supposed to have been born and spent their earliest years in Egypt, in the house of their uncle Belos [Belus], who was king of the land before his son Aigyptos.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now for anyone who knows the basics of Dionysos' family tree, there's a big chronological discrepancy in Herodotus' claim about Melampus learning Dionysos' mysteries from a young Kadmos, because Kadmos is the maternal *grandfather* of Dionysos, and the wine-god was born a good long while after Kadmos had left Canaan and become king of Boiotian Thebes! It could therefore only mean that either Herodotus rejects the traditional family tree of Dionysos, or he's outright saying that the Dionysos of Melampus is quite distinct from the Theban grandson of Kadmos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Zagreus, the First Dionysos**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The need to distinguish between these *Dionysoi* would appear to be the inspiration for the myth of a Dionysos who was before Dionysos, that is to say an incarnation of the god before he was born as Kadmos' grandson. The most detailed rendition of just such a thing is recounted by [Nonnus in his epic poem the *Dionysiaka*](http://www.theoi.com/Text/NonnusDionysiaca6.html), in which Dionysos is a reincarnation of an ancient, beautiful and monstrous shape-shifting baby god named Zagreus. Like Dionysos after him he too is a son of Zeus, sired upon Zeus' own daughter Persephone before she becomes the wife of her uncle Hades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zagreus, born before the existence of humans, was Zeus most favourite child, of whom he was so fond that he planned to abdicate his throne in favour of this child, whom he even allowed to play with his lightning bolts. Horrified at this state of affairs, Zeus' wife Hera induced some of the Titans to lure the baby away, and they cut him to pieces which they devoured. Aggrieved at this Zeus used his lightning to reduce the murderers to ashes, from which, after being mixed with earth and water, humankind then arose. Zagreus' heart was somehow retrieved and preserved. Centuries later Zeus then mixed the now-powdered heart into a drink which he gave to his lover, Kadmos' daughter Semele, from which union Dionysos was born.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Orphics used this version of the creation story to explain why human beings are stuck in a wheel of death and rebirth (virtually identical to the concept of *saṃsāra* in Hinduism and Buddhism) with the human soul (Dionysos Zagreus) and body (the Titans) as separate entities, the former trapped inside, or being devoured by, the latter. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The New Encyclopædia Britannica, *Micropædia*, explains this understanding of humans as the combination of &quot;an earthly (Titanic) nature that had to be suppressed and a heavenly (Dionysiac) nature that had to be cultivated. This was accomplished by living an Orphic life, which included abstention from meat, wine and sexual intercourse.” (With all that being so then the Dionysos who reincarnated Zagreus is definitely not an Orphic.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Some More On Importance**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The oldest extant written reference to Zagreus, from a fragment of the now-lost epic [*Alkmaionis*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcmeonis), says that he and Gaia are &quot;above all other gods&quot;. Herodotus believed that the Arabians of his time worshipped only Aphrodite Ourania [Urania] and Dionysos, the latter of whom he says they addressed by the name Orotalt. *Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable* attempts to explain the purported foreign name as a corruption of the ancient Arabic term for &quot;God Most High.&quot;           " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17363" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5202" RevisionGUID="8cfd2d9c-2c99-4f00-a6a0-8c742fe1c505" CreationDate="2018-10-29T08:57:13.353" UserId="2774" Text="Short answer: Obviously NOT...&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Long answer: Each time you see pseudo science coming and pointing its dirty nose on any subject... Feel free to think smelly things are in the air. First that trilogy of god would refer to Isis, Horus and Set. But anyway.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Egyptian names&#xD;&#xA;--------------&#xD;&#xA;The first thing to notice is the use of the GREEK names of the EGYPTIAN gods. Because Isis is Aset in Egyptian. Horus, Hor. And Set, Set, but his hieroglyphic name come with lots of variations. So ranking something Egyptian when using Greek names is evil at best. But rest assured that the one writing those stupidities probably ignore the fact Isis and Horus are Greek names...&#xD;&#xA;I just would like also to remind Egyptian did not use a true alphabet but a specific system made of an alphabet, bilateral, trilateral and ideograms. &#xD;&#xA;Here is Osiris (As-jr aka Asir): [![enter image description here][1]][1]&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Isis (reading As-t aka Aset): [![enter image description here][2]][2]&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Horus is written with a falcon. So how the hell did Egyptian would have used 'h' for something they was writing falcon?&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Notice here I sparred you the vast discussion on how was pronounced Osiris for example.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Trinity&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;There are trinities in Egypt. The best known is Osiris (Asir in Egyptian), Isis (Aset) and Horus (Hor), respectively Husband, wide and son. Which is telling you something here about Egyptian culture. They revered procreation. No virgin Mary. No immaculate conception. Fact is virginity was not seen well. Generally speaking in the antique world, one as to face sexuality plain and blank (reading some 18xx translations of some Egyptian tales is totally priceless)&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now while there are trinities (especially the god trio, quite revered in New Kingdom, but Hathor, Sekhmet and Bastet is another popular one, in Thebes it was Amun (husband), Mut(wife), Khonsu (son), in Memphis Ptah (husband), Sekhmet (wife), Nefertem (son)), Egyptians used 2 other conglomerates of gods, the Ogdoad (8 gods) and the Ennead (9 gods). Basically, while religion in Egypt is relatively stable, there are variations between north and south, and during time. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Set&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;Let's put it blankly, Set is not an admirable God. He factually killed Osiris. And something you have to know is that: It was a secret, this murder, something taboo. Herodotus mentioned it and talked about a secret that could not be revealed. Later Plutarque wrote the whole story, Plutarque not being a great fan of foreign civilizations.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Not only did Set murdered and quartered Osiris, but he fought his nephew, Horus, and it is certainly not a gentle little fight. Set and Horus are enemies. Mortal one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Nmfn4.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/m32DG.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17364" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5202" RevisionGUID="c19c06d9-2011-4dd6-9594-a8fb74caf6a6" CreationDate="2018-10-29T09:56:37.403" UserId="201" Comment="fixed formatting and some sentence structure" Text="Short answer: Obviously NOT...&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Long answer: Each time you see pseudoscience coming and pointing its dirty nose on any subject... Feel free to think smelly things are in the air. First that a trilogy of gods would refer to Isis, Horus and Set. But anyway.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Egyptian names&#xD;&#xA;--------------&#xD;&#xA;The first thing to notice is the use of the GREEK names of the EGYPTIAN gods. Because Isis is Aset in Egyptian. Horus is Hor. Set is Set, but his hieroglyphic name came with lots of variations. So ranking something Egyptian when using Greek names is evil at best. But rest assured that the one writing those stupidities probably ignored the fact Isis and Horus are Greek names...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I just would like also to mention that Egyptian did not use a true alphabet but a specific system made of an alphabet, bilateral, trilateral and ideograms. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is Osiris (As-jr aka Asir):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; [![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Isis (reading As-t aka Aset): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Horus is written with a falcon. So how would Egyptian have used &quot;h&quot; for something they were writing as &quot;falcon&quot;?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice here I sparred you the vast discussion on how Osiris was pronounced, for example.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Trinity&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;There are trinities in Egypt. The best known is Osiris (Asir in Egyptian), Isis (Aset), and Horus (Hor), respectively Husband, wife, and son. Which is telling you something here about Egyptian culture. They revered procreation. No virgin Mary. No immaculate conception. Fact is virginity was not seen well. Generally speaking in the antique world, one has to face sexuality plain and blank (reading some 18xx translations of some Egyptian tales is totally priceless).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now while there are trinities (especially the god trio, quite revered in New Kingdom, but Hathor, Sekhmet and Bastet is another popular one, in Thebes it was Amun (husband), Mut (wife), Khonsu (son); in Memphis Ptah (husband), Sekhmet (wife), Nefertem (son)), Egyptians used 2 other conglomerates of gods, the Ogdoad (8 gods) and the Ennead (9 gods). Basically, while religion in Egypt is relatively stable, there are variations between north and south, and during time. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Set&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;Let's put it blankly: Set is not an admirable God. He factually killed Osiris. And something you have to know is that it was a secret, this murder, something taboo. Herodotus mentioned it and talked about a secret that could not be revealed. Later Plutarque wrote the whole story, Plutarque not being a great fan of foreign civilizations.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not only did Set murder and quarter Osiris, but he fought his nephew, Horus, and it was certainly not a gentle little fight. Set and Horus are enemies. Mortal one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Nmfn4.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/m32DG.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17365" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5201" RevisionGUID="5b503bc1-11b7-4021-ae41-62f47d1a0c8d" CreationDate="2018-10-29T14:49:04.603" UserId="1308" Comment="added 33 characters in body" Text="The Chick Publications tract &quot;[Are Roman Catholics Christians?][1]&quot; has all sorts of questionable content (including many fundamental misunderstandings of Roman Catholicism), but there is one historical claim that I was unsure of. When talking about the letters IHS on the Eucharist, they imply that it stands for the letters of three Egyptian gods.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Egypt, the &quot;IHS&quot; stood for their gods…Isis, Horus, Seb.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Their citation for this is *The Two Babylons*, a book published by their organization, so I'm a little skeptical of the source.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did ancient Egypt use this abbreviation for the names of their gods?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;\* See [What does IHS stand for on the Eucharist?](https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/56408/what-does-the-letters-jhs-mean) on Christianity Stack Exchange for what it actually stands for.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.chick.com/m/reading/tracts/readtract.asp?stk=0071" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17367" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5197" RevisionGUID="453339a1-57f3-4138-8da2-fa5078e48a58" CreationDate="2018-10-29T18:31:45.520" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar, improved formatting, &amp; added some visual aids (i.e. pictures)" Text="[![John Gast's *American Progress*][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;In the 1872 painting *American Progress*, by John Gast, is the gigantic female figure in the center supposed to be Liberty or Columbia? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If it is Columbia, were other Columbias of the age dressed so provocatively? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If it is Liberty, why are some Liberties dressed to cover up so much while others are so revealing? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Columbia Flanked by Washington &amp; Lincoln][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;Bottom line: I'm wondering why Gast didn't clearly make his central figure a Columbia, then dress her (modestly) like all of the other Columbias that I see online (such as in the example above).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/W9JGi.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/9nohs.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17368" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5197" RevisionGUID="453339a1-57f3-4138-8da2-fa5078e48a58" CreationDate="2018-10-29T18:31:45.520" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar, improved formatting, &amp; added some visual aids (i.e. pictures)" Text="Is it Liberty or Columbia depicted in John Gast's &quot;American Progress&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17369" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5197" RevisionGUID="453339a1-57f3-4138-8da2-fa5078e48a58" CreationDate="2018-10-29T18:31:45.520" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar, improved formatting, &amp; added some visual aids (i.e. pictures)" Text="|comparative|symbolism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17370" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5204" RevisionGUID="82e450a3-d9b4-4d13-b805-5018da0e6dae" CreationDate="2018-10-29T21:13:03.217" UserId="5504" Text="I remember from long ago a story about a martial artist, The Bully, who was renowned for his &quot;100-step punch&quot;:  if he lands the blow, you will die after taking 100 steps.  One day another martial artist, The Hero, gets into a fight with The Bully, and is hit by the 100-step punch.  The Hero staggers away, and The Bully believes he has won.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later, The Hero returns to defeat The Bully.  Surprised, The Bully asks, &quot;How did you survive my 100-step punch?&quot;.   The Hero replies, &quot;I only took 99 steps!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If this sounds familiar to you... &#xD;&#xA;Where did this story come from, and is there a better rendition of it than my paltry summary?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17371" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5204" RevisionGUID="82e450a3-d9b4-4d13-b805-5018da0e6dae" CreationDate="2018-10-29T21:13:03.217" UserId="5504" Text="How did you survive my 100-step punch?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17372" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5204" RevisionGUID="82e450a3-d9b4-4d13-b805-5018da0e6dae" CreationDate="2018-10-29T21:13:03.217" UserId="5504" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17373" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5204" RevisionGUID="90111e56-98de-4547-9e4a-041e06261fe0" CreationDate="2018-10-29T21:20:53.237" UserId="5504" Comment="edited tags" Text="|folklore|japanese|chinese|korean|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17374" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5202" RevisionGUID="c4b52e78-fb40-4230-bf25-57526c1f66d6" CreationDate="2018-10-29T21:22:20.777" UserId="2774" Comment="Add Geb " Text="Short answer: Obviously NOT...&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Long answer: Each time you see pseudoscience coming and pointing its dirty nose on any subject... Feel free to think smelly things are in the air. First that a trilogy of gods would refer to Isis, Horus and Set. But anyway.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Egyptian names&#xD;&#xA;--------------&#xD;&#xA;The first thing to notice is the use of the GREEK names of the EGYPTIAN gods. Because Isis is Aset in Egyptian. Horus is Hor. Set is Set, but his hieroglyphic name came with lots of variations. So ranking something Egyptian when using Greek names is evil at best. But rest assured that the one writing those stupidities probably ignored the fact Isis and Horus are Greek names...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I just would like also to mention that Egyptian did not use a true alphabet but a specific system made of an alphabet, bilateral, trilateral and ideograms. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is Osiris (As-jr aka Asir, the old classical reading is ws-jr, aka Ousir):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; [![enter image description here][1]][1]&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;As a side note the eye is a bilateral read as jr (or ir if you use the American system, jr is the much international European system), not an ideaogram, just 2 sounds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Isis (reading As-t aka Aset): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;the kind of demi circle is read 't', and is an unilateral. Not truly speaking a letter as in an alphabet, but quite close.&#xD;&#xA;Horus is written with a falcon. So how would Egyptians have used &quot;h&quot; for something they were writing as &quot;falcon&quot;?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice here I sparred you the vast discussion on how Osiris was pronounced, for example.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Trinity&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;There are trinities in Egypt. The best known is Osiris (Asir in Egyptian), Isis (Aset), and Horus (Hor), respectively Husband, wife, and son. Which is telling you something here about Egyptian culture. They revered procreation. No virgin Mary. No immaculate conception. Fact is virginity was not seen well. Generally speaking in the antique world, one has to face sexuality plain and blank (reading some 18xx translations of some Egyptian tales is totally priceless).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now while there are trinities (especially the god trio, quite revered in New Kingdom, but Hathor, Sekhmet and Bastet is another popular one, in Thebes it was Amun (husband), Mut (wife), Khonsu (son); in Memphis Ptah (husband), Sekhmet (wife), Nefertem (son)), Egyptians used 2 other conglomerates of gods, the Ogdoad (8 gods) and the Ennead (9 gods). Basically, while religion in Egypt is relatively stable, there are variations between north and south, and during time. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Set&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;Let's put it blankly: Set is not an admirable God. He factually killed Osiris. And something you have to know is that it was a secret, this murder, something taboo. Herodotus mentioned it and talked about a secret that could not be revealed. Later Plutarque wrote the whole story, Plutarque not being a great fan of foreign civilizations.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not only did Set murder and quarter Osiris, but he fought his nephew, Horus, and it was certainly not a gentle little fight. Set and Horus are enemies. Mortal one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Seb&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;As the opener made me noticed, the god Geb, could be a solution. Let's examine. It is unlikely in modern literature to find Geb as Seb, but not in the old one. Champollion noted that in his &quot;Précis du système hiéroglyphique des anciens Égyptiens&quot;: Cb ou Cyb (copte): le dieu Sèb ou Scheb divinité egyptienne (The god Seb or Scheb, Egyptian divinity). (Notice in French &quot;ce&quot; and &quot;cy&quot; are easily read &quot;see&quot; or &quot;say&quot; hence Champollion's way of writting). And this is a trend we find in all the 1800 era.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Here is another example, by Peter Le-Page Renouf, from 1885: The Egyptian word seb, or rather sbu had from the earliest time different meanings. The identification of Seb with the earth is recognized  in the Ritual of the Pyramids. But the word is also the name of a goose on pictures on the same pariod.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Here is his hieroglyphics name [![enter image description here][3]][3] &lt;BR&gt; which is read Gb-b ( the repetition of the b is to help the reading of the bilateral, it should not be pronounced)&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now let's take a look at Geb. Geb is an Earth god, member of the Ennead.  His consort is Nut, the sky goddess, and their usual children include Isis, Osiris, set and Nephtis.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In certain traditions, he is the father of Horus the Elder (Haroeris); which also indicates that Isis is Horus's sister, and Horus's mother is Nut. In that case Horus form a triad with the Goddess Tasenetnofret (his wife) and Panebtawi(their son). In the pyramid text Horus the Elder is the son of Ra. You can notice once again a general trend in Egyptian trinities: Father, mother, son...&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;So either Geb is Horus direct father, but Isis is just Horus's sister. Or Geb is Horus grand-father and isis, Horus's mother and Geb's daughter. Either you twist the neck of Egyptian mythology or that does not work!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Nmfn4.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/m32DG.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/mlBGw.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17375" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5205" RevisionGUID="2a685baf-c97f-4ea0-8d4c-7b984e3f8cec" CreationDate="2018-10-29T21:25:53.973" UserId="5353" Text="I'm sorry, the story had been completely deformed by the person who told it to me. It was supposed to be the story of Ulysses and Polyphemus the cyclops." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17376" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5206" RevisionGUID="8e7772a4-1391-47db-bf0b-611b1ce608ef" CreationDate="2018-10-29T23:16:29.027" UserId="5503" Text="This alludes on a passage in Marsilio Ficino’s commentary on Plato’s *Philebus*, which you can find [here on Google Books][1] (in Latin). On pages 181-182, he writes about the four letter names of God:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cur omnes Deum quatuor vocant literis? Hebraei quatuor vocalibus hae ho hai, Aegyptii Theuth, Persae syre, Magi Orsi, unde Oromasis. Graeci Theos. Nos deus. Arabes alla; Macometh abgdi. Nos item Jesu a Gabriele accepimus, in quo nomine etc. Certe non aliter tam diversae Gentes in uno ignoti Dei nomine convenissent, nisi divinitus. Ac si acceperunt ab Adamo, divinitus hoc potius quam alia acceperunt. Tradunt Hebraei in nomine illo omnia fieri posse miracula, si vere pronuntietur, quod omnium difficilimum et miraculo solo pronuntiatur. Deum puto adeo difficile instituisse, ut nemo pronuntiaret, miraculaque per ipsum faceret, nisi Deus per ipsum quasi per tubam clamaret. Quod ostendit Jesum Deo fuisse omnium acceptissimum: quem fatentur Judaei per id nomen recte pronunciatum fecisse miracula. Ipsi vero per Heloin pronunciant. Graeci per Tetragrammaton. Deus omnia disponit, scilicet per essentiam esse vim, actionem. Caelestia, per quatuor triplicitates. Sub caelum, per quatuor elementa. Sic quatuor voluit literis exprimi.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In English, with my comments between square brackets, this would translate as:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Why does everyone call God by four letters? The Hebrews have four vowels: *e-o-a-i*, the Egyptians call him *Theuth* [note that in Greek, “th” is one letter “θ”], the Persians *Syre*, the Magi *Orsi* (whence *Oromasis*), the Greeks *Theos* [note once again that in Greek, “th” is one letter “θ”], we [= in Latin] *Deus*, the Arabs *Alla*, Mahomed calls him *Abdi*. We also received the name *Jesu* from Gabriel [compare Luke 1:30-31], by which name etc. [An allusion to Acts 4:7, where Peter and John are accused of doing miracles in Jesus’ name.] Certainly, such different nations would not otherwise have agreed on the one name of the unknown God, except by divine power. And if they received it from Adam, then it was by divine power they received it [that name] rather than others. The Hebrews say that in this name, if pronounced correctly, all miracles are possible — but it is so difficult, it already takes a miracle to pronounce it. God, I think, made it so difficult, in order that nobody should pronounce it and do miracles, unless God should pronounce it through him like through a trumpet. This shows that Jesus was the most acceptable of all to God: the Jews admit he has done miracles by pronouncing that name correctly. They [the Jews] pronounce it by *Elohim*, the Greek by the Tetragrammaton. God orders everything by essence, being, power or action. In heaven by the four groups of three [this might be a reference to the twelve signs of the Zodiac], under heaven by the four elements [earth, water, air and fire]. Therefore, He wanted to be designated by four letters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don’t know if there has been any further discussion of Ficino’s assertion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.be/books?id=i1EtN4kqCnsC&amp;pg=PA181#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17377" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5207" RevisionGUID="c64d9676-8cc7-43bb-8b90-799f7c5549ed" CreationDate="2018-10-30T03:25:24.757" UserId="3341" Text="This reminded me of the unique &quot;Kill Bill&quot; movies. Found the following on Pinerest:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pai Mei played by Kung Fu movie legend Gordon Liu in Kill Bill -&#xD;&#xA;&gt; character is based off of the villain White Lotus with Gordon Liu as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the hero. It was a 1980 Shaw Brothers Kung Fu film called Fist of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; White Lotus. In that movie after delivering the version of Kill Bill's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Five-Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique&quot;, a man would die after 100&#xD;&#xA;&gt; steps. &quot;See, my Kung Fu is better than yours. I only took 99 steps!&quot; ~&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gordon Liu." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17378" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5207" RevisionGUID="303dd3c4-9569-439d-ae20-ba8121dfad6d" CreationDate="2018-10-30T03:47:51.943" UserId="3341" Comment="added 16 characters in body" Text="This reminded me of the unique &quot;Kill Bill&quot; (Vols. I &amp; II) movies. Found the following on Pinterest:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pai Mei played by Kung Fu movie legend Gordon Liu in Kill Bill -&#xD;&#xA;&gt; character is based off of the villain White Lotus with Gordon Liu as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the hero. It was a 1980 Shaw Brothers Kung Fu film called Fist of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; White Lotus. In that movie after delivering the version of Kill Bill's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Five-Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique&quot;, a man would die after 100&#xD;&#xA;&gt; steps. &quot;See, my Kung Fu is better than yours. I only took 99 steps!&quot; ~&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gordon Liu." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17379" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5208" RevisionGUID="69cdc87f-deb7-4d60-a913-4b93b110fb3b" CreationDate="2018-10-30T07:40:48.777" UserId="2682" Text="**Yes, they can be killed, and also: yes, they can be captured and imprisoned**, according to at least one ancient source (see next section). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nothing in the original mythology states that the Titans were necessarily stronger than the gods. In fact, if anything, Hesiod's *Theogony*, for instance, repeatedly highlights the strength of the Olympians as an explanation of how they defeated their elder enemies to became the top dogs. Every situation bears different circumstances, which are what determine how easy or difficult it would be to capture or kill one of the gods. Not at all possess the same powers, resources or temperaments, so the results will vary on a case-by-case basis. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ares' Greatest Misadventure**  &#xD;&#xA;In Book 5 (Lines 381-391) of Homer's *Iliad*, the Oceanid Dione recounts the story to Aphrodite of how a pair of really young giant boys once wrapped the war-god Ares in chains and packed him into a metal jar, nearly killing him. (Further details on that below.) In this and every story in which a god is captured, his opponent is tremendously enormous, so I am assuming that the colossal size of the deity's captor is a major factor if not an outright requirement for the overpowering of the targeted divinity. Only two exceptions to this come to mind. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hera's Tricky Golden Chair**  &#xD;&#xA;In one of these exceptions, when Hephaistos [Hephaestus], the artisan of the gods, was young, he used a somewhat steampunk mechanical device—a golden chair with hidden fetters—to trap his mother Hera, who had thrown him away when he was a baby. Hera's other son Ares tried to release her from the trap but failed, whereupon none of the other gods could convince Hephaistos to extricate Hera from the device. Finally the wine-god Dionysos [Dionysus] tricked the artisan-god into getting drunk and brought him to Mt Olympos [Olympus] where Hera had been trapped, mother and son were conciliated to each other, and Hephaistos let Hera out of her inconvenient predicament. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Dionysos Goes on a Cruise**  &#xD;&#xA;The other exception features Dionysos in *his* youth, wherein he is captured and bound in ropes by a band of Tyrrhenian pirates posing as operators of a passenger ship. Dionysos, however, is merely toying with these corsairs, whom he terrorises by transforming parts of their vessel into ivy and snakes before changing them all into dolphins.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Most Dead God &lt;sup&gt;Limited Edition&lt;/sup&gt;**  &#xD;&#xA;In Greek mythology there is only one instance of a full-fledged deity actually going through the full process of dying entirely as ordinary mortals do (although, in a way, he comes back to life again). This story, about Zagreus, however, is told by the Orphics, a mystical cult whose mythology was some distance left-field of the mainstream Olympian narratives and which borrows heavily from adapted Egyptian and Asian material. (More on Zagreus in the last section below.) Again there are two exceptions to this, which amount to not much at all after all.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Tomb of Zeus**  &#xD;&#xA;The first [exception] is a Cretan version of Zeus about whom it was said that he was actually a local prince who, like Adonis, had been gored to death by a wild boar. Several places on Crete Island displayed his tomb (one of which remains even down to the present day), but even in a time almost as far back as Homer and Hesiod, a famous poet and prophet named Epimenides, himself a Cretan, dismissed this story out of hand, decrying his fellow islanders as degenerate liars on account of this. A few centuries after Epimenides, Callimachus agreed with the Cretan prophet by quoting him on this point in his Hymn to Zeus. In between the times of these two, Pherecydes of Syros had expressed his belief that the Cretan Zeus tomb actually belonged instead to a giant who had been Zeus' school-teacher during the god's childhood on the island, and who thus was very closely associated with the Olympian king. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The So-Called Death of Pan**  &#xD;&#xA;The second exception comes from an essay written by Plutarch c. 100AD, in which he narrates the tale of how an Egyptian sailor heard a voice announcing to him across the water that he should spread a rumour saying that &quot;the great god Pan&quot; had died. The deity in question never himself makes a cameo in the story, which to me is clearly a metaphor for the subject-matter of the essay, *On the Obsolescence of Oracles*. The news of Pan's death is an allegory of the decline of certain aspects of popular Ancient Greek religion in Plutarch's time.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Disambiguating and Dismembering Khronos and Kronos**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a significant but often subtle and fairly confusing difference between the Titan Kronos (Κρόνος in Greek, which gets Anglicised to *Cronos* and *Cronus*), who became the father of Zeus; and the primordial mystical god Khronos (Χρόνος in Greek, which is Anglicised as *Chronos* or *Chronus*), the personification of time, who is essentially a part of the structure of the universe. In some Orphic cosmogonies Khronos is the father of Khaos [Chaos] and thus the ultimate origin of all things.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even though *Khronos*, meaning &quot;Time,&quot; from which we get English *chronology*, *chronometer* and *chronicle*, is a different word from *Kronos*, even in ancient times the two characters were confused and equated with each other. Plutarch points out the common allegorical interpretation that Kronos, who devours his own offspring, was a symbol of how the ravages of Time (Khronos) consumed posterity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the early 21st century AD, the most popular source for the idea that the Titan Kronos was chopped to pieces by his own children appears to be Rick Riordan's *Percy Jackson and the Olympians* series of books, movies and other related entertainment forms. Riordan does not seem to have invented this piece of neo-mythology, and from what I can tell it appears to have arisen from the conflation of the Titan with the Time-God.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In her 2012 poetry collection *In the Fullness of Time*, Anne Hughes' poem *At the Sea's Edge* says (p. 67):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Here is where death is—   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; time dissolved into that eternity   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; from which beauty is endlessly borne—   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; agony of Chronos dismembered;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; joy of Aphrodite depth-born&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a much older reference to the same mytheme, from 1862, in Volume 1 of the *London Society* Magazine. According to its article &quot;On the Grotesque in Things Sorrowful&quot; (p. 426),&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zeus... could only dismember his father Chronos or Time,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;the author thus confirming that s\he thinks Zeus is the son of the primaeval time-deity. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hughes, for her part, seems to be confusing the Titan (or perhaps the Time-God) with Kronos's father Ouranos [Uranus], the Sky. Kronos had dismembered Ouranos, not by chopping him to pieces, but by castration. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As early as the 19th century, therefore, the stories seem to have gotten heaped into a jumble in which Kronos and Khronos were totally merged, and the emasculation of Ouranos by Kronos somehow became the hatcheting of K(h)ronos by *his* child(ren) instead.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**K(h)ronos Still in One Piece**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is, however, no ancient myth at all in which Kronos [the Titan father of Zeus] is chopped into pieces by anyone, whether by his own progeny or someone other. No such thing happens to the cosmic Time-God Khronos either, whether we equate him with the Titan or not. The worst thing that happened to Kronos the Titan is that he got imprisoned in Tartaros [Tartarus], the vast storm-pit at the lowest level of the Underworld. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But even while incarcerated therein he still received prayers and libations from his children on Mt Olympos, who, according to *Iliad* 14, were required to invoke his name and those of the other Titans in the Underworld in order to ratify their most sacred oaths. Some time after the Trojan War, Zeus released Kronos and the Titans from Tartaros and granted them amnesty. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kronos, whose prison sentence had lasted thousands of years, was at this point still alive, well, and bodily intact. He ultimately, therefore, cannot be used as an example of a deity that died, except in the sense that he had inhabited the land of death for aeons, lying inert beneath the dwelling of the human dead who were housed in the layer of the netherworld which sat on top of Tartaros.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Mutilation**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ouranos, the character from whom originates the confused story about K(h)ronos being dismembered, himself did not die when his son Kronos chopped off a piece of him. It is *he* who was held down by his children and then dismembered. Of four of his sons, each one held down one of his four limbs, while a fifth son, Kronos, arose from the Earth beneath him in order to sever his reproductive organ from the rest of him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Far from killing Ouranos, instead this action produced yet more life, for the blood which spilled from this violence impregnated the Earth, which from it gave birth to the Furies and the ash-tree nymphs, as well as, in some versions, the Giants. More famously yet, the severed genitalia, dumped by Kronos into the Sea, transformed there into the lascivious goddess Aphrodite. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apart from the case of Zagreus, the loss of this one body-part is the most grievous injury sustained by any deity in Greek mythology. A very similar thing happens to Agdistis, a being born to Zeus and Gaia in Phrygia. Because Agdistis was born with both male and female organs, the gods feared the entity and cut off the male organ. Upon this emasculation, Agdistis was thenceforward the Phrygian goddess Kybele [Cybele]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An almond tree grew up out of Agdistis's discarded genitals. An almond from this tree then impregnated a local river-nymph, who gave birth to Attis, who, when he had grown up, was castrated and died. He was worshipped after his death and seems to have resurrected in his eunuch form. He evidently had been born and died a mortal man, only becoming a god after death, somewhat like Asklepios [Asclepius] and Herakles [Hercules].   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The mutilation of Ouranos and Agdistis represents a reduction of their power rather than their destruction. Ouranos loses his rule over the universe and becomes a deactivated part of the cosmos like the more inanimate primordial deities such as Erebos [Erebus] and Tartaros. Meanwhile Agdistis now appears in a less threatening form to the other divinities.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Varied Forms of Injury and Incapacitation&#xD;&#xA;-----------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    &#xD;&#xA;There is otherwise no level of damage inflicted upon Greek deities which comes close to being as severe as any kind of amputation. For several thousands of years the crucified Titan Prometheus has his liver torn out but it grows back almost every day, and he seems to be bodily intact once this torture ends. In one battle against the super-strong mortal hero Herakles, Hades is wounded in the shoulder, Hera in her right breast, and Ares in the thigh. They are each badly hurt but after a visit to their doctor they are all good as new.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Typhon vs Zeus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus has his head split open with an axe, a full-grown goddess bursts forth from his cloven skull, and he recovers just fine from that. Later in life Zeus undergoes an apparently more surgical procedure. As part of the Giants' attack on the Olympians, the cosmic-sized, many-armed, hundred-headed monster Typhon coiled around Zeus, presumably like a python with its prey, and cut the sinews out of Zeus's hands and feet. This apparently paralysed the king of the gods, whom Typhon then threw over his shoulders, carrying him across the Sea to his lair, a cave in Cilicia, Anatolia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here Typhon deposited Zeus, hiding the god's extraced sinews in a bear-skin which he placed under the guard of a female, part-dragon creature named Delphyne. Zeus's sons, the gods Hermes and Aigipan [Aegipan], managed to sneak past this sentinel and save their father by reconnecting him with his sinews. After this, a furious battle ensued between Zeus and Typhon which ended with the latter's demise or imprisonment.      &#xD;&#xA;      &#xD;&#xA;At the onset of his attack Typhon had threatened to release the confined Titans from Tartaros, to distribute the goddesses—especially the virgins—as brides among the Titans, the Giants and himself, and to force the male deities to endure the Titans' punishments. Because Heaven was too small to contain him, Typhon planned to tear it down and rebuild it, with himself as its overlord. Zeus, for his part specifically, was slated to became the western pillar of the Sky, replacing the Titan Atlas in this mode of imprisonment.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But once Typhon had Zeus in his mercy, for some reason never explained to us, he did not do anything to him worse than paralysing him. It seems that he could well have killed him, but perhaps Zeus was not so easily slain and Typhon just didn't now how to finish him off. Maybe he intended to first display him in a triumph after fulfilling his promise of swapping the positions of the Olympians with their anciently defeated foes trapped in the Underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Kidnapping the God of War**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A somewhat comical scenario had transpired some time not too far removed from Typhon's attack. Poseidon, the King of the Sea, had consorted with his own granddaughter Iphimedeia, and she bore him a pair of gigantic twin sons named Otos [Otus] and Ephialtes. These kids, whose stepfather was named Aloeus, and after whom they were called the Aloadai [Aloads], grew by nine inches every month. By the time they were nine years old they were each nine cubits wide and nine fathoms tall. In more modern parlance, they were each 18 feet (roughly 6m) wide and 54 feet (approx. 16m) tall.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In circumstances regarding which we are not informed, the twins once kidnapped Ares, who thus went missing for thirteen months, during which no other deity, so it seems, knew where he was. Heriboia was the second wife of Aloeus, and she somehow found out that her husband's giant stepsons had Ares. She fed Hermes this bit of intelligence, and he came in stealth-mode to rescue Ares. The Aloadai had clapped Ares in &quot;cruel bonds&quot; and shoved him into a bronze urn, within which he almost died, perhaps mostly from muscular atrophy and starvation, before Hermes came and stole him out of there. Doing what these boys did to Ares must have required the imposition of a prodigiously incredible amount of brute strength by Otos and Ephialtes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I base this on the fact that in the same poem which gives us the twins' measurements we are told that Ares' body, when he fell down, covered seven *plethra* of land, which is something like 6.3 square kilometres (almost 4 square miles). This comes from *Iliad* 21.405-410, the measurements contained therein having been translated variously into English as &quot;seven roods&quot; (A.T. Murray, 1924), &quot;seven acres&quot; (R. Lattimore, 1951) and &quot;over an acre&quot; (A.S. Kline's [PoetryInTranslation website](https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad21.php#anchor_Toc239246377)), all of which are significantly smaller than 6km&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; or 4 miles&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; but the least of which is still hundreds of times bigger than the Aloadai are supposed to have been. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In comparison to Ares, they might as well have been a pair of ants! We could perhaps explain this away by assuming that Ares, like his cousins Otos and Ephialtes, continued to gradually expand over the years so that he would have been significantly smaller back when they had nabbed him some generations earlier. Or that he only grew so extensively large on battlefields during wartime, such as in *Iliad* 21, which takes place in the thick of combat during the Trojan War.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The God Whom the Titans Assassinated**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the most bizarre stories in Greek myth takes place after Zeus rapes his own daughter Kore, who, renamed Persephone, becomes the queen of the Underworld by marrying Zeus' brother, her own uncle Hades. Before she gets married, she gives birth to Zeus's son Zagreus, a beautiful, and sort of monstrous, horned god. In her jealousy over the affection lavished upon this stepson of hers, Hera organises for a bunch of Titans to attack Zagreus, and they chop him to pieces using, as Nonnus calls it in his *Dionysiaca*, &quot;an infernal knife&quot;. This weapon might be some sort of ceremonial instrument from the Underworld. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This and other features the confrontation with the baby god surely must be connected with the Mystery rituals of the Orphics: features such as how the Titans are able to sneak up on Zagreus because they have painted their faces with chalk and beguiled him with a mirror; and also the way in which he wildly changes himself into various forms before finally being slaughtered while in the guise of a bull.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Being butchered into beef is the closest that a Greek god ever gets to being reducing &quot;to a state of formlessness from which they are unable to return&quot;. The conception of such utter destruction does not seem to exist in the ancient myths. Every entity in the universe from the Sky down to the Earth and its mountains, islands, rivers, trees, animals and people, has an essence which continues to exist even after the body's disintegration. This essence is housed somewhere in the cosmos, e.g. most of the dead descend beneath the Earth's surface and are held in the house of Hades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are a few different accounts of what happens to the pieces of the slain Zagreus but the most central is his heart, which Zeus preserves. Centuries later, this organ, now powdered, he makes into a special drink for his lover Semele, who becomes the mother of Dionysos. Thus Zagreus becomes reincarnated as the raucous wine-god, a unique position in the mythology, as we have no other Greek deity who is a reincarnation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most of the remaining butchered Zagreus-beef supplies the Orphic myth about the creation of humankind. The same Titans who assassinated Zeus's son then devoured his flesh. In his rage over this,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Zeus used his lightning to reduce the murderers to ashes, from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which, after being mixed with earth and water, humankind then arose.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zagreus' heart was somehow retrieved and preserved. Centuries later&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zeus then mixed the now-powdered heart into a drink which he gave to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his lover... Semele, from which union Dionysos was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; born.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;The Orphics used this version of the creation story to explain&#xD;&#xA;&gt; why human beings are stuck in a wheel of death and rebirth (virtually&#xD;&#xA;&gt; identical to the concept of *saṃsāra* in Hinduism and Buddhism) with the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; human soul (Dionysos Zagreus) and body (the Titans) as separate&#xD;&#xA;&gt; entities, the former trapped inside, or being devoured by, the latter.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; ~ *From [my Answer to another&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Question*](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/1982/2682)&lt;/sup&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17380" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5202" RevisionGUID="411fbe6a-a296-4dc4-8f68-d3d6aac41014" CreationDate="2018-10-30T09:46:46.157" UserId="201" Comment="tweaked formatting and spelling/grammar punctuation" Text="Short answer: Obviously NOT...&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Long answer: Each time you see pseudoscience coming and pointing its dirty nose on any subject... Feel free to think smelly things are in the air. First that a trilogy of gods would refer to Isis, Horus and Set. But anyway.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Egyptian names&#xD;&#xA;--------------&#xD;&#xA;The first thing to notice is the use of the GREEK names of the EGYPTIAN gods. Because Isis is Aset in Egyptian. Horus is Hor. Set is Set, but his hieroglyphic name came with lots of variations. So ranking something Egyptian when using Greek names is evil at best. But rest assured that the one writing those stupidities probably ignored the fact Isis and Horus are Greek names...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I just would like also to mention that Egyptian did not use a true alphabet but a specific system made of an alphabet, bilateral, trilateral and ideograms. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is Osiris (As-jr aka Asir, the old classical reading is ws-jr, aka Ousir):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; [![enter image description here][1]][1]&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;As a side note the eye is a bilateral read as jr (or ir if you use the American system, jr is the much international European system), not an ideaogram, just 2 sounds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Isis (reading As-t aka Aset): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;the kind of demi circle is read 't', and is an unilateral. Not truly speaking a letter as in an alphabet, but quite close.&#xD;&#xA;Horus is written with a falcon. So how would Egyptians have used &quot;h&quot; for something they were writing as &quot;falcon&quot;?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice here I sparred you the vast discussion on how Osiris was pronounced, for example.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Trinity&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;There are trinities in Egypt. The best known is Osiris (Asir in Egyptian), Isis (Aset), and Horus (Hor), respectively Husband, wife, and son. Which is telling you something here about Egyptian culture. They revered procreation. No virgin Mary. No immaculate conception. Fact is virginity was not seen well. Generally speaking in the antique world, one has to face sexuality plain and blank (reading some 18xx translations of some Egyptian tales is totally priceless).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now while there are trinities (especially the god trio, quite revered in New Kingdom, but Hathor, Sekhmet and Bastet is another popular one, in Thebes it was Amun (husband), Mut (wife), Khonsu (son); in Memphis Ptah (husband), Sekhmet (wife), Nefertem (son)), Egyptians used 2 other conglomerates of gods, the Ogdoad (8 gods) and the Ennead (9 gods). Basically, while religion in Egypt is relatively stable, there are variations between north and south, and during time. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Set&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;Let's put it blankly: Set is not an admirable God. He factually killed Osiris. And something you have to know is that it was a secret, this murder, something taboo. Herodotus mentioned it and talked about a secret that could not be revealed. Later Plutarque wrote the whole story, Plutarque not being a great fan of foreign civilizations.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not only did Set murder and quarter Osiris, but he fought his nephew, Horus, and it was certainly not a gentle little fight. Set and Horus are enemies. Mortal one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Seb&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;As the opener made me noticed, the god Geb could be a solution. Let's examine. It is unlikely in modern literature to find Geb as Seb, but not in the old one. Champollion noted that in his &quot;Précis du système hiéroglyphique des anciens Égyptiens&quot;: Cb ou Cyb (copte): le dieu Sèb ou Scheb divinité egyptienne (The god Seb or Scheb, Egyptian divinity). (Notice in French &quot;ce&quot; and &quot;cy&quot; are easily read &quot;see&quot; or &quot;say&quot; hence Champollion's way of writing). And this is a trend we find in all the 1800 era.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is another example, by Peter Le-Page Renouf, from 1885: The Egyptian word seb, or rather sbu, had from the earliest time different meanings. The identification of Seb with the earth is recognized  in the Ritual of the Pyramids. But the word is also the name of a goose on pictures on the same period.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is his hieroglyphics name &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;which is read Gb-b ( the repetition of the b is to help the reading of the bilateral, it should not be pronounced)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now let's take a look at Geb. Geb is an Earth god, member of the Ennead.  His consort is Nut, the sky goddess, and their usual children include Isis, Osiris, Set, and Nephtis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In certain traditions, he is the father of Horus the Elder (Haroeris), which also indicates that Isis is Horus's sister, and Horus's mother is Nut. In that case Horus form a triad with the Goddess Tasenetnofret (his wife) and Panebtawi (their son). In the pyramid text Horus the Elder is the son of Ra. You can notice once again a general trend in Egyptian trinities: Father, mother, son...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So either Geb is Horus's direct father, and Isis is just Horus's sister, or Geb is Horus grandfather and Isis is Horus's mother and Geb's daughter. Either you twist the neck of Egyptian mythology or that does not work!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Nmfn4.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/m32DG.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/mlBGw.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17383" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5210" RevisionGUID="121cc83c-21e4-4fad-8c29-557ed242c804" CreationDate="2018-10-31T19:47:19.327" UserId="5503" Text="How are Norse and Celtic mythology related? In a few different ways, I suppose.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Because they are the mythologies of **similar human societies**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An example: the “Green Man” isn’t exclusively Celtic, faces made from or surrounded by leaves, fruits, vines or branches, or men with green skin, are found in ancient cultures throughout the world. Often they are related to dieties of rebirth and regeneration, responsible for the return of spring. In a society in the climate of north-western Europe during the first millennium, with rather “primitive” agriculture, without supermarkets and without refrigerators, people were much more dependent on the rebirth of nature in spring for their food supplies. A long winter could literally cost lives, so it is no wonder the return of spring was seen as a godly gift. With the earth turning green again, and plants getting leaves out of nowhere, it doesn’t seem such an illogical step to represent the god responsible for this as a green man surrounded by leaves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Joseph Campbell, autor of a popular book with the title *The Hero with a Thousand Faces*, even goes as far as proposing a basic structure for myths in general, based upon a Jungian conception of archetypes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 2. Because the roots of Norse mythology supposedly lay in a Common Germanic mythology, which in turn **goes back to a common (Western) Indo-European mythology** from which also Celtic mythology is thought to originate.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An example: The celtic god *Taranis*’ name (meaning “thunderer”) is likely connected to Norse *Thor* (and Anglo-Saxon *Thunor*, German *Donar*, all from Common Germanic *Thunraz* meaning “thunderer”). Even the name of the Hittite god *Tarhun* might reflect the same root. But there is more: in Norse mythology, the mother of *Thor* is *Fjörgynn*. Her name is etymologically equivalent to the names of thunder gods in a lot of other Indo-European cultures, and even of other cultures influenced by the Indo-European: Slavic *Perun*, Lithuanian *Perkunas*, Sanskrit *Parjanya*, Albanian *Perëndi*, Thracian *Perkon*… The name is associated with the oak-tree. Maximus Tyrius in his 38th dissertation states that the Celts, too, venerate their Jupiter (i.e. their god of thunder) not with statues but by worshipping oaks instead. Germanic pagans are said to have worshipped Donar’s oak, according to Wilibald in his *Life of Saint Boniface*. Also the Greek God of thunder, Zeus, was worshipped in an oak tree at the ancient oracle of Dodona. Etc. etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 3. Because they are mythologies that were in contact with each other during a considerable period of time, which favours **mutual cultural influences**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a matter of fact, Germanic and Celtic cultures have been in close contact during a long time. When the Norwegians started settling the Faroe islands and Iceland, they encountered Gaelic monks who were already living there. Lots of vikings also settled on the British isles and assimilated into society, but not without leaving traces in the culture. For example, Viking ships and weapons became models for later Irish ship and weapon designs." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17384" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5211" RevisionGUID="778e49b8-db69-4038-b4fc-32d79f4f526d" CreationDate="2018-10-31T22:13:14.797" UserId="5503" Text="The words “killing” and “stone men” might be inaccurate. Unfortunately, researchers don’t seem to be sure about what exactly is going on in this passage. The key question is what or who the enigmatic “stone ones” are: the meaning of *šūt abni* remains unclear. In the Penguin edition, the translation “Stone Ones” is used. In other translations I have read “Stone Things” and “stone charms”, also other suggestions about what the *šūt abni* were have been made: stone splash-guards, stone anchors, stone sails, stone poles, stone kedge anchors, stone monuments, stone statues… However *šūt* seems to suggest a kind of living being rather than an object, while the act of “smashing” (not killing) seems to suggest an object rather than a living being. So the question about what the *šūt abni* are, remains unresolved.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But why does Gilgameš smash these *šūt abni*? The tenth tablet of the standard version, as quoted in your question, supposes Gilgameš smashed the Stone Ones “in his fury”. This emendation is based on a parallel passage in the fragments from the Old Babylonian Sippar tablet, where we are told explicitly that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; … And [the Stone Ones] he smashed in his fury.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And a little further:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Stone Ones, O Gilgamesh, enabled my crossing, &lt;br&gt; &#xD;&#xA;for I must not touch the Waters of Death.&lt;br&gt; &#xD;&#xA;In your fury you have smashed them.&lt;br&gt; &#xD;&#xA;The Stone Ones were with me to take me across. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anger seems to be Gilgameš’ main motive for smashing the *šūt abni*, a quite unsatisfying motive indeed: why is he so furious? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Personally, but this is nothing more than an opinion, I believe this kind of destructive behaviour could be explained by two reasons. Besides, the one does not exclude the other:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Gilgameš is still the destructive tyrant, behaving like a “savage wild bull” of which the people complain to the gods in the first tablet of the standard version. He acts in fury, he fights before talking. And doing so, he makes life more difficult for himself and the people around him. This passage shows us Gilgameš has not yet reached his katharsis, he is not yet worthy of living the eternal life.&#xD;&#xA; 2. We should also not forget Gilgameš is still mourning the loss of his best friend Enkidu. In the beginning of the tenth tablet, the tavern-keeper remarks that Gilgameš’ cheeks are hollow, his face is sunken, sorrow resides in his heart. These remarks are repeated by Ur-šanabi after Gilgameš smashed the *šūt abni*. A part of the problem seems to be that Gilgameš is not yet able to cope with his own feelings in a non-aggressive way." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17388" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5213" RevisionGUID="401170a2-dd2a-4616-99d8-08d87288e7a3" CreationDate="2018-10-31T23:28:50.503" UserId="467" Text="(Note: I'm not the person who asked this question, but when I submitted my answer Stack Exchange replaced that person with me!)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is sometimes claimed, even in some fairly recent writings about Halloween, that the ancient precedent for Halloween is a Roman festival dedicated to Pomona, the Roman goddess of fruits and orchards (e.g., Bannatyne, Lesley, Halloween: *An American Holiday, an American History* (1990), pp. 6-7; Kelley, Ruth, *The Book of Hallowe’en: the History of Allhallows Eve* (1919), pp. 12-13). Some claim that it was celebrated on November 1, others that it was part of an August 13 (or 23) festival dedicated to Vertumnus (god of the turning seasons) called the Vertumnalia. (Kelley, p. 13, claims the Pomona festival was on November 1, and that the Vertumnalia was on August 23.) In his *Metamorphoses,* Ovid tells a lovely myth about the romance between Vertumnus and Pomona (14.626-771), but in none of his works does he refer to a festival to her. In fact, there is no evidence for a Pomona festival, and it probably never existed (Morton, Lisa, *trick or treat: a history of halloween* (2012), pp. 17-18). In modern times, the error seems to go back at least as far as the 18th century English topographer William Hutchinson, who wrote, “The first day of November seems to retain the celebration of a festival to Pomona.” This statement was then uncritically repeated going forward (e.g., in Pakenham, J.A.G., “Pagan Rites and Christian Festivals,” *The Canadian Monthly and National Review* 10:525-33, at p. 530 (July-December, 1876), and in the December 12, 1903, weekly issue of *The Churchman,* p. 751). One modern writer suggests that Hutchinson was simply inspired by Ovid’s myth (Morton 2012, pp. 17-18), but this would not account for the alleged date since Ovid mentioned no date or even any festival. More likely the error can be traced to a misreading of a passage in Varro’s *De Lingua Latina,* which actually specifies August as the month of the Vertumnalia. (Specifically, the passage in question (6.20-21) first describes certain festivals in August, and then in a separate sentence says that the Vertumnalia is observed “at that time” without further specifying a date. The sentence after that goes on to describe a festival in October, the Meditrinalia. The phrase “at that time” refers to August, but it is possible that some readers mistakenly thought it refers to October.) **Note**: The Wikipedia article on the Vertumnalia (note 4) traces the mistake back to a 1696 book by Laurentius Begerus, but so far I have not been able to get my hands on it, which is why I say that the mistake goes back &quot;at least&quot; as far as Hutchinson." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17389" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5214" RevisionGUID="b9f7c579-33fb-480a-986b-17574dda2c49" CreationDate="2018-11-01T00:53:00.430" UserId="5511" Text="There is an undeniable symmetry between the positions of the brightest stars and the position of Egyptian buildings and cities, if you take the Milky Way as the Celestial Nile, as shown in the images below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like cities in Egypt, these stars were associated with specific deities who resided there. Traveling to cities by the Nile was considered the earth equivalent for the milky way and the corresponding stars.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Every day, the sun god Ra would sail the heavens from east to west.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The death of a king had a strong connection to the stars for Ancient Egyptians. They believed once a king was deceased, their soul would rise to the heavens and become a star. Translated pyramid texts describe the king ascending and becoming the Morning Star among the Imperishable Stars of past kings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The brightest stars had names and their nightly shift in position was also used to keep time. Below is a list of the main stars and their names in hieroglyphs used for this time-keeping purpose:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/2jxH3.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/4Ksei.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/3vQyB.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17390" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5215" RevisionGUID="a8c906e8-a801-4a6e-acee-467feb1b8dd5" CreationDate="2018-11-01T01:08:58.073" UserId="5511" Text="Taweret was a so-called &quot;household deity&quot; with first mention in the Old Kingdom, but there never were any large temples or worship centers built in her name. As such, her origin story is not as elaborate as the deities who were associated with large complexes or cities. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17391" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5216" RevisionGUID="254198ab-cf24-462a-8822-78bbd0dc0241" CreationDate="2018-11-01T19:55:59.540" UserId="5503" Text="Story time! I will briefly summarize the corresponding parts of some stories which I believe have some parallels to the Šamḫat-episode in the epic of Gilgameš, providing each time a link to Wikipedia which often contains more substantial summaries of the stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### Literature ###&#xD;&#xA;The most obvious parallel might not be a mythological, but a literary creation: **[Tarzan][1]**, a young boy taken care of by apes in the African jungle. Grown up as a handsome young man, a prototypical noble savage, he meets Jane, a young American woman. They fall in love, and as Jane leaves for America again, Tarzan decides to follow his love and to enter into civilized society. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### Folklore, fairy tales and mythology ###&#xD;&#xA;Another well-known story type, one with roots in folklore, is the group of fairy tales to which belongs **[the Beauty and the Beast][2]**: a girl falls in love with a monster or a beast, who turns out to be a charming prince: the curse that made him a monster is overcome by love. See also **[The Frog Prince][3]** (a girl kisses a frog who becomes a prince) and **[East of the Sun and West of the Moon][4]** (a girl goes to live with a White Bear, who at night, in bed, takes off his bear skin and becomes a man). (Besides, there are also different stories about women having intercourse with a bear, resulting in bear-like children, for example in Sámi mythology, in Icelandic saga’s, in Saxo Grammaticus’ *De Gesta Danorum* — but that is not directly linked with our subject here). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A similar story type with switched gender roles are the tales about **[swan maidens][5]** (a swan — or some other kind of creature — takes of her swan clothes under which she is a woman, a man takes away her clothes and she marries him). As an interesting example, I would like to mention **[Vǫlundarkviða][6]**, in the beginning of which three brothers take three swan-maidens as their wives. Later, they disappear “to fulfill their fate” and they are not mentioned again in the rest of the story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### The Bible ###&#xD;&#xA;In the Bible we find a parallel that is in some respects closer to the Šamḫat-story, and a bit different from the stories I mentioned above, it is the episode of **[Samson and Delilah][7]**. The life of Samson is told in the Book of Judges, chapters 13 to 16, the Delilah-episode occurs in chapter 16. Samson is an Israelite with some characteristics of a “wild man”: superhuman strength, killing a lion with his bare hands, eating honey from a carcass, living in a cave in the rock of Etam, killing a lot of Philistines with a jawbone of a donkey as his primitive weapon… One day, when Samson is seen visiting a prostitute, the Philistines try to arrest him at the city gate, but Samson simply destroys the whole gate an carries it with him. Later, he falls in love with Delilah (her name means “the faithless one”). His Philistine enemies pay her to find the secret of Samson’s strength, and after some persistence, Samson tells her he will lose his strength if his hair is cut. When he falls asleep in her lap, she lets a servant cut his hair and then delivers him to the Philistines.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### Important differences ###&#xD;&#xA;All these stories have in common that a male being is civilized by the love of a woman. It may be clear though that the differences with the Šamḫat-archetype are considerable:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Note that the sexual aspect remains implicit in most versions. This may be explained by the fact that in most cultures where the mentioned stories were written down, sexuality often was a taboo topic, often to be avoided in literature. The Šamḫat-episode is rather explicitly sexual, and romantic aspects seem to be absent.&#xD;&#xA; 2. Note that the female characters often do not have an explicitly sexual background, they are no temple prostitutes like Šamḫat — but rather young women with maybe little or no sexual experience (or young men, in the case of the swan maiden versions). The sexual background of Delilah is not clear, but she might be more promiscuous: just before her name is mentioned, Samson is said to be visiting a prostitute.&#xD;&#xA; 3. Note that Šamḫat is explicitly sent in order to civilize Enkidu, while the female characters in most other stories are not explicitly sent by someone in order to tame the wild man/beast. The changement of wild man/beast into civilized man takes place as an often unforeseen consequence. Only the faithless Delilah betrays Samson on purpose.&#xD;&#xA; 4. Note that Šamḫat plays just this one role in a much larger and much more complex story. She has a clearly defined role, she fulfills this role, and then she disappears out of the story. In most other stories, the female character is also the main character (not just a plot device), and the story is often told through her perspective (only in the story Samson, Delilah plays a less central role, and in Vǫlundarkviða the episode with the swan maidens is just a small part in the beginning of the story). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarzan&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beauty_and_the_Beast&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Frog_Prince&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_of_the_Sun_and_West_of_the_Moon&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swan_maiden&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lundarkvi%C3%B0a&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson#Delilah" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17392" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5216" RevisionGUID="2e3b4a75-bde2-43e4-8b41-314bf3aa15d0" CreationDate="2018-11-01T20:08:40.853" UserId="5503" Comment="added 274 characters in body" Text="Story time! I will briefly summarize the corresponding parts of some stories which I believe have some parallels to the Šamḫat-episode in the epic of Gilgameš, providing each time a link to Wikipedia which often contains more substantial summaries of the stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### Literature ###&#xD;&#xA;The most obvious parallel might not be a mythological, but a literary creation: **[Tarzan][1]**, a young boy taken care of by apes in the African jungle. Grown up as a handsome young man, a prototypical noble savage, he meets Jane, a young American woman. They fall in love, and as Jane leaves for America again, Tarzan decides to follow his love and to enter into “civilized” society. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### Folklore ###&#xD;&#xA;Another well-known story type, one with roots in folklore, is the group of fairy tales to which belongs **[the Beauty and the Beast][2]**: a girl falls in love with a monster or a beast, who turns out to be a charming prince: the curse that made him a monster is overcome by love. See also **[The Frog Prince][3]** (a girl kisses a frog who becomes a prince) and **[East of the Sun and West of the Moon][4]** (a girl goes to live with a White Bear, who at night, in bed, takes off his bear skin and becomes a man). (Besides, there are also different stories about women having intercourse with a bear, resulting in bear-like children, for example in Sámi mythology, in Icelandic saga’s, in Saxo Grammaticus’ *De Gesta Danorum* — but that is not directly linked with our subject here). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A similar story type with switched gender roles are the tales about **[swan maidens][5]** (a swan — or some other kind of creature — takes of her swan clothes under which she is a woman, a man takes away her clothes and she marries him). As an interesting example, I would like to mention **[Vǫlundarkviða][6]**, in the beginning of which three brothers take three swan maidens as their wives. Later, the swan maidens disappear “to fulfill their fate” and they are not mentioned again in the rest of the story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### The Bible ###&#xD;&#xA;In the Bible we find different parallels to episodes in the epic of Gilgameš, and also for this episode we can find a biblical parallel that is in some respects closer to the Šamḫat-episode, and a bit different from the stories I mentioned above: it is the story of **[Samson and Delilah][7]**. The life of Samson is told in the Book of Judges, chapters 13 to 16, the Delilah-episode occurs in chapter 16. Samson is an Israelite with some characteristics of a “wild man”: superhuman strength, killing a lion with his bare hands, eating honey from a carcass, living in a cave in the rock of Etam, killing a lot of Philistines with a jawbone of a donkey as his primitive weapon… One day, when Samson is seen visiting a prostitute, the Philistines try to arrest him at the city gate, but Samson simply destroys the whole gate an carries it with him. Later, he falls in love with Delilah (her name means “the faithless one” — an ominous name indeed). His Philistine enemies pay her to find the secret of Samson’s strength. She asks Samson to tell her how he can be overpowered, and after some persistence, Samson tells her he will lose his strength if his hair is cut. When he falls asleep in her lap, she lets a servant cut his hair and then delivers him to the Philistines.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### Important differences ###&#xD;&#xA;All these stories have in common that an uncivilized being is civilized by the love of a human of the opposite gender. It may be clear though that the differences with the Šamḫat-archetype are considerable:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Note that the sexual aspect remains implicit in most versions. This may be explained by the fact that in most cultures where the mentioned stories were written down, sexuality often was a taboo topic, to be avoided in literature. The Šamḫat-episode is rather explicitly sexual, and romantic aspects seem to be absent here.&#xD;&#xA; 2. Note that the civilizing characters often do not have an explicitly sexual background, they are no temple prostitutes like Šamḫat — but rather young women with maybe little or no sexual experience (or young men, in the stories of the swan maiden type). The sexual background of Delilah is not clear, she might be more promiscuous: just before her name is mentioned, Samson is said to be visiting a prostitute — but this does not necessarily imply that Delilah is a prostitute, too.&#xD;&#xA; 3. Note that Šamḫat is explicitly sent *in order to* civilize Enkidu, while the female characters in most other stories are not explicitly sent by someone in order to tame the wild man/beast. The changement of wild man/beast into civilized man takes place as an often unforeseen consequence. Only the faithless Delilah betrays Samson on purpose.&#xD;&#xA; 4. Note that Šamḫat plays just this one role in a much larger and much more complex story. She has a clearly defined role, she fulfills this role, and then she disappears out of the story. In most other stories, the female character is also the main character (not just a plot device), and the story is often told through her perspective (only in the story Samson, Delilah plays a less central role, and in Vǫlundarkviða the episode with the swan maidens is just a small part in the beginning of the story). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarzan&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beauty_and_the_Beast&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Frog_Prince&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_of_the_Sun_and_West_of_the_Moon&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swan_maiden&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lundarkvi%C3%B0a&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson#Delilah" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17393" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5152" RevisionGUID="53e4de0d-a26a-434e-8b9c-bacacc131593" CreationDate="2018-11-01T21:20:12.003" UserId="2892" Comment="added 67 characters in body" Text="How was the goddess [Taweret][1] created? Is there a creation story, or was she just the child of two gods?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taweret" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17394" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5217" RevisionGUID="bfec9787-6b2e-4d53-8ecc-03017fc3f131" CreationDate="2018-11-01T21:24:18.197" UserId="5503" Text="## Gothic ##&#xD;&#xA;As mentioned [in andejons’ answer][1], there is not a lot of material in the Gothic language. Apart from Wulfila's Bible translation on the [Wulfila project][2] (where you can also find a calendar fragment, the Gothic signatures of the Naples and Arezzo deeds and the *Skeireins* fragment, a part of a commentary on the gospel of John), there is another website, [**www.gotica.de**][3], which apart from the aforementioned fragments also contains some other smaller fragments in Gothic. These texts are useful to study the Gothic language and how the Goths interpreted the Bible, but we can learn very little about their mythology from these texts. The problem is that the Goths already had become Christians before most written sources mention anything about them, so we do not know much about there pre-christian stories and beliefs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, in Latin we do have a text known under the title ***De origine actibusque Getarum*** or *Getica*, by Jordanes. It mixes earlier Roman and Greek sources with oral Gothic sources, and it represents both the mythological and historical background of the Goths. However, a lot of information is drawn from sources who were not actually Goths but other peoples with similar names or living earlier in the same areas that where later inhabited by Goths. A Latin edition can be found online [here][4] and (together with an English translation and notes) [here][5]. [A more recent scholarly edition of the Latin text][6] with elaborate notes and a side-by-side Italian translation was published in France in 2017.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Old-Norse, we have the *Hervarar saga ok Heiðreks*, in which we find a poem commonly known under the name of ***Hlǫðskviða***, about a battle of the Goths with the Huns. This poem may or may not reflect an earlier Gothic tradition about the same events. An Old-Norse version can be found [here][7] and (together with an English translation and notes) [here][8]. You may also want to look at [Wikipedia][9] for some basic background information.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You might be interested to know that, apart from this, in later times myths about the Gothic kings **Ermanaric** (also mentioned in the *Getica*) and **Theoderic** (a historical ruler of the Ostrogoths) started to appear elsewhere in Europe, for example in the Latin *Annals of Quedlinburg*, the Old High German *Hildebrandslied*, the Old English poems *Waldere*, *Deor* and *Widsith*, the Old-Norse *Þiðreks Saga* and some texts in the *Poetic Edda*, as well as in the Middle High German Heldenbücher and the Niebelungenlied (amongst others). But note that these are no Gothic stories, they are stories of a much later date about Gothic heroes who lived several centuries earlier.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/5181/5503&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.wulfila.be/gothic/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.gotica.de/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/iordanes1.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.harbornet.com/folks/theedrich/Goths/Goths1.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.lesbelleslettres.com/livre/3403-getica&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://heimskringla.no/wiki/Hervarar_saga_ok_Hei%C3%B0reks&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.germanicmythology.com/FORNALDARSAGAS/HervararSagaTunstall.html&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hl%C3%B6%C3%B0skvi%C3%B0a" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17401" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5220" RevisionGUID="ebad9cfc-e771-4b50-9de6-3f26a18c52b4" CreationDate="2018-11-02T09:39:03.717" UserId="5511" Text="There are many Chinese folk tales that have been preserved in their original Literary or Classical Chinese form, as early as from the Han dynasty. In fact, they have recently been [compiled into 23 volumes](http://en.chinaculture.org/library/2008-01/10/content_65099.htm). Many are still extremely popular and have been televised. Probably the most popular is Wu-Cheng-En's [Journey To The West](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_to_the_West). Most of these original texts are accessible. For example, here is the [original transcribed text](http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/23962/pg23962-images.html) of Journey To The West.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since you asked for fairy tales as well, the [Chinese Fairy Book](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/29939/29939-h/29939-h.htm) may be of interest to you.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In addition, many folk stories have been preserved as part of the Taoist and Buddhist canons in Literary and Classical Chinese. The Chinese Ch'an and Japanese Zen traditions are rich in short folk tales used as meditation topics, for example [Hakujo's Fox](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_fox_koan).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17402" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5199" RevisionGUID="90999d1f-b81b-4024-8863-579d63362287" CreationDate="2018-11-02T09:56:47.567" UserId="201" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body" Text="Whatever version of the myth you've heard is missing critical parts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Prometheus (meaning &quot;fore-thought&quot;), a Titan, was given the job of creating humanity. But humans were left in the dark and cold and treated poorly. When Prometheus complained, the gods blew him off, so he dipped a reed into the sun and brought fire to humans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The gods were furious about this, because now humans could cook their food, have light to travel at night, create settlements, etc. and basically not be slaves utterly dependent on the gods. So they wanted to punish Prometheus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They punished him in two ways. One was punishing him personally, by chaining him to a rock in the middle of the ocean where a giant eagle tore at his liver every day. His liver regrew overnight, and the eagle would start again in the morning. He was eventually rescued by Hercules.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The other punishment was against his overall house, his family. Prometheus had a brother, Epithemeus (&quot;after-thought&quot;). The gods would give him a wife.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They created *Pandora,* meaning &quot;all-gifted.&quot; Each god/dess gave her some great attribute as a gift: Aphrodite made her beautiful, Hermes made her bold and clever, Athena gave her the knowledge of needlework, and so on. They made her irresistible to dumb, impetuous Epithemeus. And they made sure that she had an insatiable curiosity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus sent Pandora to Epithemeus as a gift to be his wife. Even though Prometheus had warned him to beware of Greek gods bearing gifts, Epithemeus accepted Pandora. As a wedding gift, the gods also gave Pandora the famous box/jar, but told her &quot;You can never open it.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Obviously she eventually did, because the gods had set up the trap that way. In the jar they had deliberately placed little flying stinging spirits which carried evils: plague, pestilence, hard work, etc. (The evils were not just casually stored there. They were put there *on purpose* so Pandora would release them.) When she opened the jar, all the evil spirits flew out and zipped off to bring misery to humanity. She slammed the jar shut just in time to keep Hope from flying off, so Hope still remained to alleviate humanity's misery.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So yes, strictly speaking Zeus (and the other gods) gave her the box/jar, but the jar didn't already exist. It was devised as a punishment, and Pandora was the unwitting patsy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Direct source: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theoi.com/Heroine/Pandora.html&quot;&gt;Theoi's article on Pandora,&lt;/a&gt; &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanPrometheus.html&quot;&gt;Theoi's article on Prometheus.&lt;/a&gt; Also taken from Evslin/Evslin/Hoopes, the D'Aulaires, and various other retellings of the myth I've heard over the years. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17403" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5221" RevisionGUID="e54dd18d-cbdb-43a6-89e4-f9fd0f9505a6" CreationDate="2018-11-02T10:06:41.820" UserId="5511" Text="The largest collection I know of is the [Digitized Collections of Ancient Egyptian Source Texts](http://www.egyptologyforum.org/EEFSourcetexts.html)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's also [Hieroglyphic texts from Egyptian stelae, etc](http://dlib.nyu.edu/awdl/sites/dl-pa.home.nyu.edu.awdl/files/hieroglyphictext01brit/hieroglyphictext01brit.pdf)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and the [Thesaurus Linguae Aegyptiae](http://aaew.bbaw.de/tla/servlet/S05?d=d001&amp;h=h001)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for transcribed texts, consider that there were mainly two word processors used in the last decades to transcribe hieroglyphs: [JSesh](http://jsesh.qenherkhopeshef.org/) and Winglyph (the latter seems to be discontinued). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason I'm mentioning this: Unicode transcription is fairly recent, and most transcribed texts will still be in JSesh (.gly) format, which uses a classification notation system called [Manuel De Codage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_de_Codage) (MDC). The classication is used in dictionaries such as [Middle Egyptian Dictionary](https://www.scribd.com/doc/10929802/Dictionary-of-Middle-Egyptian).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, the text on the Stargate Cover Stone is:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In JSesh, we would write this as:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;D21:N35:Q3_-M4_-X1:Z2_-I8:V20-D21:X7-D58-V28B-G43-W15-N1:N25-G43-D21:D36-C1-G17-M17-X1:N35\240-N8-!! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;G17-Aa1_-G17_-X1_-S20-O32_-N35:I9_-X7:D21-S29-M4A-A185-Q6:A55-I9:N35-I10:X1-N16:D21-G21-V28B-V28B-N5:Z14-!! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;S29-N14-D58-G1-N14:N5-Z2:I9-!! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you open this notation in JSesh, it looks like this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/lfzGD.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/PLigW.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17404" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5222" RevisionGUID="2d48a1b1-fa35-49ab-b9b9-7766987b6d5c" CreationDate="2018-11-02T12:01:32.333" UserDisplayName="user5268" Text="I fully aware that Loki is no longer considered a fire god, but I recently read an interesting [two][1]-[part][2] article proposing that Loki is an *Eldþursar* (Fire Giant). The article does this by analysing archaeological evidence, extracts from Old Norse poems where Loki is associated with fire and comparing Loki with Indo-European fire deities  such as Hēphaistos/Volcānus (Greco-Roman mythology) and Agní (Vedic Hinduism). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any element of truth  in this article?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://polytheist.com/orgrandr-lokean/2014/09/17/a-new-place-for-loki-part-i/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://polytheist.com/orgrandr-lokean/2014/09/23/a-new-place-for-loki-part-ii/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17405" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5222" RevisionGUID="2d48a1b1-fa35-49ab-b9b9-7766987b6d5c" CreationDate="2018-11-02T12:01:32.333" UserDisplayName="user5268" Text="Is Loki a Eldþursar?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17406" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5222" RevisionGUID="2d48a1b1-fa35-49ab-b9b9-7766987b6d5c" CreationDate="2018-11-02T12:01:32.333" UserDisplayName="user5268" Text="|norse|interpretation|loki|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17407" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5214" RevisionGUID="9f221c50-d6a6-4f52-b074-9ed44b287517" CreationDate="2018-11-02T12:15:54.800" UserId="5511" Comment="added 2958 characters in body" Text="Like cities in Egypt, stars were associated with specific deities who resided there. There seems to be some scepticism in the comments about this so I'm amending this section to clarify this is not just a new age supposition. So let's first establish that the Egyptian deities were believed to reside in the stars as well as in the cities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Let's for example look at Osiris, who was associated with Sirius and [Orion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_(constellation)#Ancient_Near_East) according to the Pyramid Texts. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the [Papyrus of Ani](https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Books/Papyrus_Ani.html) consider this honoring of Osiris:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The stars in the celestial heights are obedient unto thee, and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; great doors of the sky open themselves before thee. Thou art he to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whom praises are ascribed in the southern heaven, and thanks are given&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for thee in the northern heaven. The imperishable stars are under thy&#xD;&#xA;&gt; supervision, and the stars which never set are thy thrones.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now let's look at the cities the same papyrus section honoring Osiris mentions:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thou art the governor of Tattu (Busiris), and also the mighty one in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sekhem (Letopolis). Thou art the Lord to whom praises are ascribed in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the nome of Ati, thou art the Prince of divine food in Anu. Thou art&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Lord who is commemorated in Maati, the Hidden Soul, the Lord of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Qerrt (Elephantine), the Ruler supreme in White Wall (Memphis). Thou&#xD;&#xA;&gt; art the Soul of Ra, his own body, and hast thy place of rest in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Henensu (Herakleopolis). Thou art the beneficent one, and art praised&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in Nart. Thou makest thy soul to be raised up. Thou art the Lord of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Great House in Khemenu (Hermopolis). Thou art the mighty one of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; victories in Shas-hetep, the Lord of eternity, the Governor of Abydos.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The path of his throne is in Ta-tcheser (a part of Abydos).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So here we see two residences of Osiris: Egyptian cities, such as Abydos (which incidentally houses the great temple of Osiris) and celestial bodies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is not exclusive to Osiris: the same star/city association can be found for other deities. From the same papyrus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thou shalt come forth into heaven, thou shalt sail over the sky, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thou shalt hold loving intercourse with the Star-gods. Praises shall&#xD;&#xA;&gt; be made to thee in the Boat. Thy name shall be proclaimed in the Atett&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Boat. Thou shalt look upon Ra within his shrine. Thou shalt make the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Disk to set [with prayer] every day. Thou shalt see the Ant Fish in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his transformations in the depths of the waters of turquoise. Thou&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shalt see the Abtu Fish in his time. It shall be that the Evil One&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shall fall when he deviseth a plan to destroy thee, and the joints of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his neck and back shall be hacked asunder. Ra saileth with a fair&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wind, and the Sektet Boat progresseth and cometh into port. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mariners of Ra rejoice, and the heart of the Lady of the Hour is glad,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for the enemy of her Lord hath been cast to the ground. Thou shalt&#xD;&#xA;&gt; behold Horus standing on the pilot's place in the Boat, and Thoth and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Maat shall stand one on each side of him. All the gods shall rejoice&#xD;&#xA;&gt; when they behold Ra coming in peace to make the hearts of the Spirit-&#xD;&#xA;&gt; souls to live, and the Osiris Ani, whose word is truth, the assessor&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the holy offerings of the Lords of Thebes, shall be with them!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here we see not only the association between deities and stars, but also sailing towards them. This star-sailing is further extrapolated in Egyptian mythology to not only apply to gods, but to kings as well. The death of a king had a strong connection to the stars for Ancient Egyptians. They believed once a king was deceased, their soul would rise to the heavens and become a star. Translated pyramid texts describe the king ascending and becoming the Morning Star among the Imperishable Stars of past kings. For the pyramid texts, antechamber 279:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The two ridges of the mountain (on both sides of the Nile valley)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shall be united.  The two banks of the river will be joined.  The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; roads will be hidden from the passers-by.  The steps (rwd.w) will be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; annihilated for those who go up.  Make tight the rope (of the boat),&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sail the road of heaven!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17408" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5217" RevisionGUID="8c76d955-b85a-4cdb-b5ca-a550a5611cff" CreationDate="2018-11-02T19:41:14.400" UserId="5503" Comment="corrected grammatical sentence structure" Text="## Gothic ##&#xD;&#xA;As mentioned [in andejons’ answer][1], there is not a lot of material in the Gothic language. Apart from Wulfila's Bible translation on the [Wulfila project][2] (where you can also find a calendar fragment, the Gothic signatures of the Naples and Arezzo deeds and the *Skeireins* fragment, a part of a commentary on the gospel of John), there is another website, [**www.gotica.de**][3], which apart from the aforementioned fragments also contains some other smaller fragments in Gothic. These texts are useful to study the Gothic language and how the Goths interpreted the Bible, but we can learn very little about their mythology from these texts. The problem is that the Goths already had become Christians before most written sources mention anything about them, so we do not know much about there pre-christian stories and beliefs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, in Latin we do have a text known under the title ***De origine actibusque Getarum*** or *Getica*, by Jordanes. It mixes earlier Roman and Greek sources with oral Gothic sources, and it represents both the mythological and historical background of the Goths. However, a lot of information is drawn from sources that write about peoples who were not actually Goths but other peoples with similar names or living earlier in the same areas that where later inhabited by Goths. A Latin edition can be found online [here][4] and (together with an English translation and notes) [here][5]. [A more recent scholarly edition of the Latin text][6] with elaborate notes and a side-by-side Italian translation was published in France in 2017.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Old-Norse, we have the *Hervarar saga ok Heiðreks*, in which we find a poem commonly known under the name of ***Hlǫðskviða***, about a battle of the Goths with the Huns. This poem may or may not reflect an earlier Gothic tradition about the same events. An Old-Norse version can be found [here][7] and (together with an English translation and notes) [here][8]. You may also want to look at [Wikipedia][9] for some basic background information.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You might be interested to know that, apart from this, in later times myths about the Gothic kings **Ermanaric** (also mentioned in the *Getica*) and **Theoderic** (a historical ruler of the Ostrogoths) started to appear elsewhere in Europe, for example in the Latin *Annals of Quedlinburg*, the Old High German *Hildebrandslied*, the Old English poems *Waldere*, *Deor* and *Widsith*, the Old-Norse *Þiðreks Saga* and some texts in the *Poetic Edda*, as well as in the Middle High German Heldenbücher and the Niebelungenlied (amongst others). But note that these are no Gothic stories, they are stories of a much later date about Gothic heroes who lived several centuries earlier.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/5181/5503&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.wulfila.be/gothic/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.gotica.de/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/iordanes1.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.harbornet.com/folks/theedrich/Goths/Goths1.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.lesbelleslettres.com/livre/3403-getica&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://heimskringla.no/wiki/Hervarar_saga_ok_Hei%C3%B0reks&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.germanicmythology.com/FORNALDARSAGAS/HervararSagaTunstall.html&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hl%C3%B6%C3%B0skvi%C3%B0a" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17409" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5183" RevisionGUID="16382ea2-5083-4f25-a776-cd1639fe2f61" CreationDate="2018-11-02T20:13:59.867" UserId="2892" Comment="added lexical links. :)" Text="##This sounds inaccurate.##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rowling has partly explained where she came up with the name for Hagrid.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rubeus comes from [a word for red](https://www.pottermore.com/writing-by-jk-rowling/colours):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Colours also played their part in the naming of Hagrid and Dumbledore, whose first names are Rubeus (red) and Albus (white) respectively. The choice was a nod to alchemy, which is so important in the first Harry Potter book, where ‘the red’ and ‘the white’ are essential mystical components of the process. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although I can't find any authorial confirmation, Hagrid seems to come from &quot;hag-ridden,&quot; an old word referring to a variety of disruptive sleep states (including some brought on by heavy alcohol consumption, as Hagrid engages in) and [possibly *The Mayor of Casterbridge* in particular.](https://www.johndcook.com/blog/2011/09/22/thomas-hardy-and-harry-potter/)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further, searching the internet reveals plentiful references to &quot;Hagrid Rubes,&quot; but none citing original sources. Some include dubious assertions, such as Rubes being framed by Hades (that wasn't really his thing) or living on Olympus (not likely for a giant, however friendly), or having been framed for the murder of &quot;Piraeus.&quot; The only instances in Google Books are from the 21st century. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The fact that *[rubeus][1]* is Latin, and the Greek for red is [ἐρυθρός][2], like the blood cell (which can also mean other colors), is another giveaway, since this is supposed to be Greek mythology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aentry%3Drubeus1&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3De)ruqro%2Fs" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17411" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5223" RevisionGUID="e257deb8-ed80-4da2-8365-5ca125b80e3c" CreationDate="2018-11-02T20:27:42.237" UserId="2892" Text="The Perseus Project is an exceptional resource for Greek and Latin Texts (not complete, but quite comprehensive): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Perseus Collection; Greek and Roman Materials][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's particularly useful because you can read most of the texts in either English or the original, and the ancient Greek and Latin words are all **hypertext links to lexical entries**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They also have a library of &quot;Germanic&quot; material which is comprised of Old Norse texts:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Perseus Collection; Germanic Materials][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In my experience, the Old Norse lexicon is not as robust as the Greek/Latin, but it's an [ongoing project of several decades][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/collection?collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/collection?collection=Perseus:collection:Germanic&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseus_Project#History" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17412" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5224" RevisionGUID="0aab1e4e-86ba-43f3-85fa-f79443e3f0ad" CreationDate="2018-11-03T04:54:28.150" UserId="5521" Text="I would like to research the supernatural properties and/or uses that gold shows in mythologies and/or folklore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am not talking about the properties or abilities of specific artifacts made of gold or named after gold (like the Golden Apples of Idun that made a person younger, or the gold ring of Odin which would create copies of itself), but of the inherent properties and/or abilties of the substance of gold itself; supernatural properties just as gold has the physical property of being a great conductor of electricity, and supernatural/magic uses of gold like the technological use of gold as a conductor in electronics.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am aware of gold's general association with eternity and the divine (inspired by it's color and resistance to corrosion), but I'd like some concrete examples, like the story of how silver would change in the presence of poison and thus was used to make drinking cups for the rich and paranoid." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17413" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5224" RevisionGUID="0aab1e4e-86ba-43f3-85fa-f79443e3f0ad" CreationDate="2018-11-03T04:54:28.150" UserId="5521" Text="What are the supernatural properties of gold in mythology and folklore?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17414" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5224" RevisionGUID="0aab1e4e-86ba-43f3-85fa-f79443e3f0ad" CreationDate="2018-11-03T04:54:28.150" UserId="5521" Text="|comparative|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17415" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5225" RevisionGUID="85713b8b-ffe2-49e7-bd0e-d26345999391" CreationDate="2018-11-03T06:34:51.953" UserId="4142" Text="The topic is vast but as a starting place I would suggest George B. Kauffman, Gold Bulletin 1985(18)p.31–44, &lt;a href=&quot;https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2FBF03214684.pdf&quot;&gt;The role of gold in alchemy. Part I&lt;/a&gt;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17417" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5226" RevisionGUID="142acdb3-eb5c-4aee-ac8a-67474ad7d0fe" CreationDate="2018-11-03T20:12:54.017" UserId="5522" Text="I read a short paragraph on Medusa's wikipedia page about the myth representing a historical event. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A number of early classics scholars interpreted the myth of the Medusa&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as a quasi-historical - &quot;based on or reconstructed from an event,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; custom, style, etc., in the past&quot;, or &quot;sublimated&quot; memory of an&#xD;&#xA;&gt; actual invasion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As I understood it, a Joseph Campbell suggests a temple with priestesses wearing gorgon masks, essentially, was invaded by King Perseus' Hellenes around 13th century BC, which would have been Mycenaean Greece I guess. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any more info of this? Is anything known about these ancient snake priestesses/godesses/religions? How far back could this go? Proto-Indo-European, even? Or was she just based on a very early greek goddess/cult that was discarded?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17418" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5226" RevisionGUID="142acdb3-eb5c-4aee-ac8a-67474ad7d0fe" CreationDate="2018-11-03T20:12:54.017" UserId="5522" Text="What is the historical origin of Medusa?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17419" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5226" RevisionGUID="142acdb3-eb5c-4aee-ac8a-67474ad7d0fe" CreationDate="2018-11-03T20:12:54.017" UserId="5522" Text="|mythohistory|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17420" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5204" RevisionGUID="c0b85ab9-b612-4734-b44f-9a35ed2d739e" CreationDate="2018-11-03T20:41:46.207" UserId="4271" Comment="edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|folklore|japanese|chinese|korean|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17422" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5064" RevisionGUID="eb977b74-d09a-4b5d-a9f5-7d4b223ea766" CreationDate="2018-11-04T00:07:18.803" UserDisplayName="user5268" Comment="deleted 9 characters in body" Text="At the climax of *Fate/stay night*'s Heaven's Feel route, the main antagonist, Kirei Kotomine [refers to a religious scripture][1] that says humans are morally superior to angels because humans can choose between committing good or evil acts. Is there such a scripture that mentions this?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wLHKS6EOko&amp;t=400s" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17423" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5227" RevisionGUID="034175fd-80f6-4b46-9dcb-ce0762d357ea" CreationDate="2018-11-04T12:43:37.563" UserId="5503" Text="You must be referring to the passage in book eight, near verse 75. The passage is rendered as follows in Butler’s translation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “The company then laid their hands upon the good things that were before them, but as soon as they had had enough to eat and drink, the muse inspired Demodocus to sing the feats of heroes, and more especially a matter that was then in the mouths of all men, to wit, *the quarrel between Ulysses and Achilles*, and the fierce words that they heaped on one another as they sat together at a banquet. But Agamemnon was glad when he heard his chieftains quarrelling with one another, for Apollo had foretold him this at Pytho when he crossed the stone floor to consult the oracle. Here was the beginning of the evil that by the will of Jove fell both upon Danaans and Trojans. Thus sang the bard, but Ulysses drew his purple mantle over his head and covered his face, for he was ashamed to let the Phæacians see that he was weeping.” &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Cited from [Wikisource][1], emphasis is mine; Ulysses is the Latin variant of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Odysseus’ name.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the dutch translation at by Patrick Lateur, the translator says in a note to verse 75: “on this theme, nothing else is known. Perhaps we are dealing with an improvisation by Demodocus. The fact that Odysseus is the subject of the song is not without significance. He is given a special place opposite Achilles, a position he did not even have in the *Iliad*.” (Source: Homeros. *Odyssee: een zwerver komt thuis.* Athenaeum—Polak &amp; Van Gennep, Amsterdam, 2016, p. 525.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gregory Nagy expresses another opinion in the third chapter of his book *The Best of the Achaeans* (1999, revised edition, [accessible online][2]). He argues the enmity between Achilles and Odysseus was a stock epic theme, to which (subtle) hints can be found in several scenes of the *Iliad*. What was the fight about? Nagy says: “The contrast apparently took the form of a quarrel between the two heroes over whether Troy would be taken by might or by artifice.” (Here, “might” is connected with Achilles and “artifice” with Odysseus.) You might be interested to read the whole chapter [here][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Odyssey_(Butler)/Book_VIII&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://chs.harvard.edu/CHS/article/display/5440.3-a-conflict-between-odysseus-and-achilles-in-the-iliad" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17424" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5226" RevisionGUID="2339b6c4-d126-425e-bc7a-d4ba604033db" CreationDate="2018-11-04T16:56:28.870" UserId="5522" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mythohistory|medusa|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17425" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5227" RevisionGUID="e5d0cf49-19cc-4d87-bbe2-aee2a112813e" CreationDate="2018-11-04T17:25:04.983" UserId="5503" Comment="added 26 characters in body" Text="You must be referring to the passage in book eight, near verse 75. The passage is rendered as follows in Butler’s translation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “The company then laid their hands upon the good things that were before them, but as soon as they had had enough to eat and drink, the muse inspired Demodocus to sing the feats of heroes, and more especially a matter that was then in the mouths of all men, to wit, *the quarrel between Ulysses and Achilles*, and the fierce words that they heaped on one another as they sat together at a banquet. But Agamemnon was glad when he heard his chieftains quarrelling with one another, for Apollo had foretold him this at Pytho when he crossed the stone floor to consult the oracle. Here was the beginning of the evil that by the will of Jove fell both upon Danaans and Trojans. Thus sang the bard, but Ulysses drew his purple mantle over his head and covered his face, for he was ashamed to let the Phæacians see that he was weeping.” &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Cited from [Wikisource][1], emphasis is mine; Ulysses is the Latin variant of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Odysseus’ name.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the dutch translation by Patrick Lateur, the translator says in a note to verse 75: “on this theme, nothing else is known. Perhaps we are dealing with an improvisation by Demodocus. The fact that Odysseus is the subject of the song is not without significance. He is given a special place opposite Achilles, a position he did not even have in the *Iliad*.” (Source: Homeros. *Odyssee: een zwerver komt thuis.* Athenaeum—Polak &amp; Van Gennep, Amsterdam, 2016, p. 525.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gregory Nagy expresses another opinion in the third chapter of his book *The Best of the Achaeans* (1999, revised edition, [accessible online][2]). He argues the enmity between Achilles and Odysseus might have been a stock epic theme, to which (subtle) hints can be found in several scenes of the *Iliad*. What was the fight about? Nagy says: “The contrast apparently took the form of a quarrel between the two heroes over whether Troy would be taken by might or by artifice.” (Here, “might”/force is connected with Achilles and “artifice”/stratagems with Odysseus.) You might be interested to read the whole chapter [here][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Odyssey_(Butler)/Book_VIII&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://chs.harvard.edu/CHS/article/display/5440.3-a-conflict-between-odysseus-and-achilles-in-the-iliad" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17427" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5228" RevisionGUID="d0750e21-abaf-449c-af7f-97f927cc87ba" CreationDate="2018-11-05T00:21:40.213" UserDisplayName="user5459" Text="Is there a particular book (from a trustworthy source of course) I can see/buy or website(s) (preferably academic, that legally allow(s) non-academics access to this information)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17428" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5228" RevisionGUID="d0750e21-abaf-449c-af7f-97f927cc87ba" CreationDate="2018-11-05T00:21:40.213" UserDisplayName="user5459" Text="Where to find myths about the origin of civilization?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17429" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5228" RevisionGUID="d0750e21-abaf-449c-af7f-97f927cc87ba" CreationDate="2018-11-05T00:21:40.213" UserDisplayName="user5459" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17431" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1944" RevisionGUID="5cb60411-f45a-4b5b-826d-274bfa8e4246" CreationDate="2018-11-05T17:00:43.933" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="17432" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5229" RevisionGUID="75cc0225-0504-4639-bf17-11a00aa2cedf" CreationDate="2018-11-05T21:58:50.730" UserId="3238" Text="Mathonwy is the father of [Math fab Mathony](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Math_fab_Mathonwy) and a mother godess [Dôn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%B4n) in Welsh legend, who is believed to be analogous to Danu from [Irish](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danu_(Irish_goddess)) and [Vedic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danu_(Asura)) legends.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any surviving sources, either direct or references from the medieval era, pertaining to Mathonwy?      &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks in advance.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17433" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5229" RevisionGUID="75cc0225-0504-4639-bf17-11a00aa2cedf" CreationDate="2018-11-05T21:58:50.730" UserId="3238" Text="What are some references to Mathonwy in Welsh legends?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17434" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5229" RevisionGUID="75cc0225-0504-4639-bf17-11a00aa2cedf" CreationDate="2018-11-05T21:58:50.730" UserId="3238" Text="|comparative|welsh|source-request|reference-request|european-folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17435" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5230" RevisionGUID="17ba85e1-8415-4569-ad73-885aaad32e53" CreationDate="2018-11-06T07:20:48.210" UserId="3647" Text="We all know that on the era of king &lt;em&gt;&lt;b&gt;Parikshita&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/em&gt;, &lt;em&gt;&lt;b&gt;Kali&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/em&gt; came. When the king has gone for hunting he saw a person hitting a one legged cow...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But from where he came from and who are his parents? When he born? Has he came from any &lt;em&gt;&lt;b&gt;Deva&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/em&gt; or &lt;em&gt;&lt;b&gt;Asura/Rakshyasa&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/em&gt; or he has coursed to be as he is?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any book or articles about history of &lt;em&gt;&lt;b&gt;Kali&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/em&gt;? Please let me know." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17436" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5230" RevisionGUID="17ba85e1-8415-4569-ad73-885aaad32e53" CreationDate="2018-11-06T07:20:48.210" UserId="3647" Text="Who is KALI and from where he came from?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17437" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5230" RevisionGUID="17ba85e1-8415-4569-ad73-885aaad32e53" CreationDate="2018-11-06T07:20:48.210" UserId="3647" Text="|hindu|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17438" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5231" RevisionGUID="7221c19e-0000-446e-aa68-4c53934fafa8" CreationDate="2018-11-06T09:28:14.300" UserId="2682" Text="**Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you have observed, three different New Testament terms have been popularly flattened into a singular English &quot;Hell.&quot; Part of this mixup goes back at least to the 200s AD, when certain writers began to generalise and then systematise these different notions into the concept of a singular location in which human beings exist after their death. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From around the 800s AD, the [*Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades*](http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/hades.html) was misattributed to the 1st-century AD Roman Jewish author Flavius Josephus. However, it is now believed to have been written by a Christian clergyman called Hippolytus of Rome (170-235 AD, best known for his *Refutation of All Heresies*). This *Discourse* refers to Hades as the subterraneous abode of all the dead, the same function served by Hades in Greek mythology, but the text distinguishes different compartments of the netherworld, the main focus being on segregating the &quot;just/ righteous&quot; and the &quot;unjust/ unrighteous,&quot; which, again, is, to an extent, a feature of the original Greek Hades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Discourse*'s description of Hades is clearly an elaboration of the rather cursory reference to it that Jesus makes in the story he tells about two men, one rich and the other poor, who die, in Ch. 16 of the Gospel of Luke (popularly known as the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus). Elements from other portions of the New Testament have been thrown into the *Discourse*'s mix, fiery allusions being a favourite, most especially the Lake of Fire from the Book of Revelation a.k.a. the Apocalypse of John. In Revelation 20, Hades is cast into the Lake of Fire (and presumably consumed and destroyed therein) but in Hippolytus's *Discourse* the Lake of Fire is merely a section *of* Hades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Fusion of Hades and Gehenna**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From hence forward in time it seems that any New Testament reference to fire connected with pain, shame or censure was early on associated with the realm of the dead in the most negative senses possible. Three of the twelve New Testament references to Gehenna link it with fire. Gehenna is actually a geographical spot very much in *this* world. As admitted in the ChristianCourier.com article which your Question is linked, Gehenna is &quot;a ravine on the southern side of Jerusalem&quot;, which Michael R. Burch reports, on TheHyperTexts.com, as being, at present day,  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;a lovely park and tourist attraction. Wonderful archeological&#xD;&#xA;&gt; discoveries have been made there, such as the healing pool of Siloam&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and the oldest Bible verses ever discovered, inscribed on small silver&#xD;&#xA;&gt; amulets. Those verses are the benediction &quot;The LORD bless thee and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; keep thee; the LORD make his countenance to shine upon thee and be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gracious unto thee.&quot;&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In spite of the fact that Gehenna is a literal valley in the world of the living, the concept of a fiery Gehenna in some otherworldly location, whose purpose is the post-mortem punishment of humans, seems to have become quite deeply ingrained in Christian cultures, especially in the Middle East, at least by the 7th century AD. This appears to be evidenced by the fact that during that era, right from the advent of Islam, *Jahannam*, the Arabic form of the word Gehenna, became the basic name for the Islamic version of &quot;the bad place,&quot; deriving much of its influence from Arabian Christianity. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even Isaac of Nineveh (a.k.a. Isaac of Syria), a Christian bishop of Arabia who lived at that time, and who himself believed that eventually all creation (even people in &quot;the bad place&quot;) would be fully reconciled to God, referred to the bad place simply as Gehenna (or rather a close Syriac Aramaic equivalent, like *Gīhannā*) or Jahannam. A few centuries later, the four canonical Gospels were translated into a few different dialects of Anglo-Saxon, wherein Hades and Gehenna, apparently thought of as part of the same continuum at this point, are almost always translated uniformly as *helle*. Later on, as the offspring of Anglo-Saxon, the English language naturally then turned up &quot;Hell&quot; for its own renditions of both Hades and Gehenna.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Abyss**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Strictly speaking, the word *Tartaros [Tartarus]* does not appear in the New Testament. The word which does appear, ταρταρώσας (*tartarōsas*), occurs only once in this part of the Biblical canon, and is, according to Wikipedia, &quot;a shortened form of the classical Greek verb *kata-tartaroo*&quot;, which means to &quot;cast down [in]to Tartaros.&quot; John Wycliffe's 1385 English New Testament translates the expression as &quot;to be drawun doun... in to helle&quot;. Subsequent English versions have generally followed suit with something along the lines of the 17th-century King James Version's &quot;cast... downe to hell&quot;, or the KJV's contemporary, the Rheims Bible, which has &quot;drawn down... to the lower hell&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hidden Beneath**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems to me that indeed &quot;Hell&quot; is the neatest, most concise English idiom for *Hades*. As your noted etymology indicates, the word &quot;Hell&quot; originally has something to do with hiding something by covering it up. This incidentally is exactly the same notion behind the Greek Hades. Consider how in Greek mythology a major attribute of the god Hades is a cap which makes him invisible, thus hiding him. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It makes perfect sense, then, that in the Ancient Greek translation of the Tanakh (commonly called the Old Testament), the word *Sheol* is almost always rendered as *Hades*, as it has the exact same connotations. They are each understood as the place where everyone goes after death, and each of them exists in a vertically layered universe in which this realm is contained—concealed—within the earth, beneath the lands of the living. And this is what Anglo-Saxon and Old English *helle* simply meant originally.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Things get hairy, however, with the mashing together of *Gehenna* and &quot;Tartaros&quot; with &quot;Hell.&quot; In the case of the Tartaros-related reference, the logical step to it becoming simply &quot;hell[e]&quot; is traceable to the fact that, in the mythology from which the Greek term derives, Tartaros is a part of Hades, the deepest portion thereof. So if Hades = Hell, then Tartaros is the bottom of Hell. And already by the time the New Testament was being composed, in Latin literature (e.g. in the writings of Hyginus) *Tartarus* had simply become a common name for the abode of the dead in general and not just the lowest region of the Underworld.     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Fire and Ice**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is barely any correlation to be found between the fiery notions of this &quot;Hell&quot; and the Hel which appears in Norse primary sources. The Norse Hel is perpetually an icily frigid world. Hell as understood by most Christians throughout the centuries is constantly ablaze. (The sole exception that comes to mind is the last of the nine circles of Dante Alighieri's &quot;Inferno,&quot; which is a frozen lake.) While Hel is unpleasant, unlike Hell, it is not a place of punishment (i.e. when Hell is = Gehenna or Tartaros), and is simply the consequence of dying by a means other than being cut down in battle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A slight similarity might exist between the final states of Hell and Hel. As mentioned above, in Revelation 20, which seems to envision something occurring at the climax of human history as we presently know it, Hell (together with Death) will be destroyed in a cosmic fire, from which the entire universe will be reborn or resurrected, &quot;new heavens and a earth&quot; in the next chapter. Before Death and Hell are cast into the Lake of Fire, however, they are emptied of the dead which are in them. In the Gylfaginning, a great fire will &quot;burn the whole world&quot; (just the Earth, or including Hel?), and afterwards a new world will emerge from the destruction. At this point two dead gods resurrect out of Hel to rule the new world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sheol in St Ephrem's Song**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most striking parallel between Hell and Hel that I can think of comes, not from the Bible, but from the hymns of another Middle Eastern Christian clergyman, namely Ephrem the Syrian. There are a few different interpretations among Christians of what Jesus did between the time that he died and the time he resurrected. An event called the [Harrowing of Hell](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrowing_of_Hell) is often named as at least one activity in which he engaged, either emptying Hell of the dead who were trapped within or at least transforming into paradise the portion of it inhabited by those considered to be saints.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The 37th of the [Nisibene Hymns of St Ephrem the Syrian](http://www.boston-catholic-journal.com/nisibene-hymns-of-saint-ephrem-the-syrian.htm) dramatises this by having Death weep for Sheol upon the loss of all her inhabitants. As mentioned above, Sheol is the original Hebrew term for Hell, and is the same in Ephrem's language: Syriac Aramaic. In Greek, Hades is a masculine term, and, unsurprisingly, personified as a male deity. Especially in Eastern Orthodox Christianity, which is heavily influenced by the Hellenisation of the Eastern Roman Empire, Hades is sometimes personified as a cosmic entity who swallowed Jesus upon Christ's death, just as he swallows all the dead. But since Jesus could not be contained by the Underworld, Hades was forced to disgorge him. Hades could thus easily be interpreted as vomiting forth the dead in Revelation 20.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Hebrew and Syriac, however, Sheol is a feminine term, and so, while St Ephrem personifies Sheol in much the same way as the Eastern Roman Christians conceptualised Hades, his hymn's cosmic Underworld personage is female. Rather than vomiting the dead who resurrect, Nisibene Hymn 37 has Sheol giving birth to Jesus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But lo! The Virgin has brought Him forth, and Sheol the barren&#xD;&#xA;&gt; has brought Him forth; two wombs that contrary to nature, have been&#xD;&#xA;&gt; changed by Him; the Virgin and Sheol both of them. The Virgin in her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bringing forth He made glad; but Sheol He grieved and made sad in His&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Resurrection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ephrem's Sheol is female while the Norse realm of Hel is ruled by a female deity, after whom it is named. Sheol mourns the &quot;birth&quot; of her &quot;reverse children,&quot; the resurrecting and escaping dead. Hel is most reluctant to let her own dead go, and in the one story in which an attempt is made for Balder, the recently deceased god of light, to be resurrected, she stipulates that this will happen only if the entire cosmos mourns his demise. This plan fails and Balder is only released after the universal conflagration at the end of time. He is one of the two dead gods who returns from Hel's realm after the entire world perishes.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17439" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5232" RevisionGUID="4d3c0253-a3f4-40eb-830c-96db7e12a5f7" CreationDate="2018-11-06T17:40:27.293" UserId="5528" Text="Okay, first of all, Apollo is actually pretty neutral in the beginning of the war, very much like Zeus. It's after Zeus orders him to go get involved that he enters the war. Zeus secretly favored the Trojans, and hence he sent Apollo to help them. Apollo did that. &#xD;&#xA;But we can't deny that Apollo did that just because Zeus asked him to. First of all, Apollo doesn't like Achilles. Long before the war even started, Achilles had killed a son of Apollo in spite of Thetis giving the clear warning: &quot;Don't kill him. If you do, you'll be killed by Apollo&quot;. But of course, Achilles ignores and kills Tenes. So it's natural that Apollo would be against Achilles. &#xD;&#xA;Also, Apollo has 2 sons of his fighting for Troy. One is Troilus, and the other is Hector (who is Apollo's son according to some poets). So obviously he'd favor Troy. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17440" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5196" RevisionGUID="620b8f99-8778-4038-b5c3-b8786000113c" CreationDate="2018-11-06T17:45:53.317" UserId="5247" Comment="added 102 characters in body" Text="**Old Irish**&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;[**CELT: Corpus of Electronic Texts**][1] A good but limited source of Irish texts of all ages, because it (and Vanhamel below) include all forms of Irish literature, their mythology section can be wanting.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Vanhamel Codecs**][2] A good guide to get a grounding of what text is where, what language period, and related publications (papers etc).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Mary Jones' Celtic Literature Collective** This used to be the best place to find Irish and Wesh language mythology with the original sources, sadly due to technical issues and hacking it's been down for a bit and may not come back up, I've put it here in case it comes back in the future.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Irish Script On Screen**][3] If you want to take it further than that and you're fluent in Sengoidelic and well versed in Insular script, Irish script on Screen has a growing collection of digitised Irish Manuscripts available online. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**The Mythological Cycle of Medieval Irish Literature, John Carey, 2018**][4] (€12) If you're willing to pay, this is one of best (and succinct) guides to medieval Irish mythology and literature, plus it's very up to date.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Ireland's Immortals, Mark Williams, 2016**][5] (~ £20) Carey's book is short for a reason, it's because this book came out before he could finish writing his. This tackles the same subject as Carey's book but is **far more in-depth** and if you wanted about 400 pages more of Carey's book (more of a pamphlet) then this book is what you need.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These books don't contain the original sources or translations but make for excellent guides and'll show you exactly what you need to know. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://celt.ucc.ie//&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.vanhamel.nl/codecs/Home&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.isos.dias.ie/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://uccshop.ie/shop/mythological-cycle-medieval-irish-literature/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Irelands-Immortals-History-Gods-Irish/dp/0691157316" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17441" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5231" RevisionGUID="9aaab297-d01a-4c3a-ae70-3ded962c2c8e" CreationDate="2018-11-06T19:38:24.403" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="**Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you have observed, three different New Testament terms have been popularly flattened into a singular English &quot;Hell.&quot; Part of this mixup goes back at least to the 200s AD, when certain writers began to generalise and then systematise these different notions into the concept of a singular location in which human beings exist after their death. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From around the 800s AD, the [*Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades*](http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/hades.html) was misattributed to the 1st-century AD Roman Jewish author Flavius Josephus. However, it is now believed to have been written by a Christian clergyman called Hippolytus of Rome (170-235 AD, best known for his *Refutation of All Heresies*). This *Discourse* refers to Hades as the subterraneous abode of all the dead, the same function served by Hades in Greek mythology, but the text distinguishes different compartments of the netherworld, the main focus being on segregating the &quot;just/ righteous&quot; and the &quot;unjust/ unrighteous,&quot; which, again, is, to an extent, a feature of the original Greek Hades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Discourse*'s description of Hades is clearly an elaboration of the rather cursory reference to it that Jesus makes in the story he tells about two men, one rich and the other poor, who die, in Ch. 16 of the Gospel of Luke (popularly known as the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus). Elements from other portions of the New Testament have been thrown into the *Discourse*'s mix, fiery allusions being a favourite, most especially the Lake of Fire from the Book of Revelation a.k.a. the Apocalypse of John. In Revelation 20, Hades is cast into the Lake of Fire (and presumably consumed and destroyed therein) but in Hippolytus's *Discourse* the Lake of Fire is merely a section *of* Hades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Fusion of Hades and Gehenna**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From hence forward in time it seems that any New Testament reference to fire connected with pain, shame or censure was early on associated with the realm of the dead in the most negative senses possible. Three of the twelve New Testament references to Gehenna link it with fire. Gehenna is actually a geographical spot very much in *this* world. As admitted in the ChristianCourier.com article which your Question is linked, Gehenna is &quot;a ravine on the southern side of Jerusalem&quot;, which Michael R. Burch reports, on TheHyperTexts.com, as being, at present day,  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;a lovely park and tourist attraction. Wonderful archeological&#xD;&#xA;&gt; discoveries have been made there, such as the healing pool of Siloam&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and the oldest Bible verses ever discovered, inscribed on small silver&#xD;&#xA;&gt; amulets. Those verses are the benediction &quot;The LORD bless thee and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; keep thee; the LORD make his countenance to shine upon thee and be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gracious unto thee.&quot;&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In spite of the fact that Gehenna is a literal valley in the world of the living, the concept of a fiery Gehenna in some otherworldly location, whose purpose is the post-mortem punishment of humans, seems to have become quite deeply ingrained in Christian cultures, especially in the Middle East, at least by the 7th century AD. This appears to be evidenced by the fact that during that era, right from the advent of Islam, *Jahannam*, the Arabic form of the word Gehenna, became the basic name for the Islamic version of &quot;the bad place,&quot; deriving much of its influence from Arabian Christianity. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even Isaac of Nineveh (a.k.a. Isaac of Syria), a Christian bishop of Arabia who lived at that time, and who himself believed that eventually all creation (even people in &quot;the bad place&quot;) would be fully reconciled to God, referred to the bad place simply as Gehenna (or rather a close Syriac Aramaic equivalent, like *Gīhannā*) or Jahannam. A few centuries later, the four canonical Gospels were translated into a few different dialects of Anglo-Saxon, wherein Hades and Gehenna, apparently thought of as part of the same continuum at this point, are almost always translated uniformly as *helle*. Later on, as the offspring of Anglo-Saxon, the English language naturally then turned up &quot;Hell&quot; for its own renditions of both Hades and Gehenna.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Abyss**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Strictly speaking, the word *Tartaros [Tartarus]* does not appear in the New Testament. The word which does appear, ταρταρώσας (*tartarōsas*), occurs only once in this part of the Biblical canon, and is, according to Wikipedia, &quot;a shortened form of the classical Greek verb *kata-tartaroo*&quot;, which means to &quot;cast down [in]to Tartaros.&quot; John Wycliffe's 1385 English New Testament translates the expression as &quot;to be drawun doun... in to helle&quot;. Subsequent English versions have generally followed suit with something along the lines of the 17th-century King James Version's &quot;cast... downe to hell&quot;. The Rheims Bible, also produced during the reign of King James, renders this as &quot;drawn down... to the lower hell&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hidden Beneath**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems to me that indeed &quot;Hell&quot; is the neatest, most concise English idiom for *Hades*. As your noted etymology indicates, the word &quot;Hell&quot; originally has something to do with hiding something by covering it up. This incidentally is exactly the same notion behind the Greek Hades. Consider how in Greek mythology a major attribute of the god Hades is a cap which makes him invisible, thus hiding him. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It makes perfect sense, then, that in the Ancient Greek translation of the Tanakh (commonly called the Old Testament), the word *Sheol* is almost always rendered as *Hades*, as it has the exact same connotations. They are each understood as the place where everyone goes after death, and each of them exists in a vertically layered universe in which this realm is contained—concealed—within the earth, beneath the lands of the living. And this is what Anglo-Saxon and Old English *helle* simply meant originally.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Things get hairy, however, with the mashing together of *Gehenna* and &quot;Tartaros&quot; with &quot;Hell.&quot; In the case of the Tartaros-related reference, the logical step to it becoming simply &quot;hell[e]&quot; is traceable to the fact that, in the mythology from which the Greek term derives, Tartaros is a part of Hades, the deepest portion thereof. So if Hades = Hell, then Tartaros is the bottom of Hell. And already by the time the New Testament was being composed, in Latin literature (e.g. in the writings of Hyginus) *Tartarus* had simply become a common name for the abode of the dead in general and not just the lowest region of the Underworld.     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Fire and Ice**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is barely any correlation to be found between the fiery notions of this &quot;Hell&quot; and the Hel which appears in Norse primary sources. The Norse Hel is perpetually an icily frigid world. Hell, as understood by most Christians throughout the centuries, is constantly ablaze. (The sole exception that comes to mind is the last of the nine circles of Dante Alighieri's &quot;Inferno,&quot; which circle is a frozen lake.) While Hel is unpleasant, unlike Hell, it is not a place of punishment (i.e. when Hell is = Gehenna or Tartaros), and is simply the consequence of dying by a means other than being cut down in battle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A slight similarity might exist between the final states of Hell and Hel. As mentioned above, in Revelation 20, which seems to envision something occurring at the climax of human history as we presently know it, Hell (together with Death) will be destroyed in a cosmic fire, from which the entire universe will be reborn or resurrected, &quot;new heavens and a earth&quot; in the next chapter. Before Death and Hell are cast into the Lake of Fire, however, they are emptied of the dead which are in them. In the Gylfaginning, a great fire will &quot;burn the whole world&quot; (just the Earth, or including Hel?), and afterwards a new world will emerge from the destruction. At this point two dead gods resurrect out of Hel to rule the new world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sheol in St Ephrem's Song**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most striking parallel between Hell and Hel that I can think of comes, not from the Bible, but from the hymns of another Middle Eastern Christian clergyman, namely Ephrem the Syrian (300s AD). There are a few different interpretations among Christians of what Jesus did between the time that he died and the time he resurrected. An event called the [Harrowing of Hell](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrowing_of_Hell) is often named as at least one activity in which he engaged, either emptying Hell of the dead who were trapped within or at least transforming into paradise the portion of it inhabited by those considered to be saints.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The 37th of the [Nisibene Hymns of St Ephrem the Syrian](http://www.boston-catholic-journal.com/nisibene-hymns-of-saint-ephrem-the-syrian.htm) dramatises this by having Death weep for Sheol upon the loss of all her inhabitants. As mentioned above, Sheol is the original Hebrew term for Hell, and is the same in Ephrem's language: Syriac Aramaic. In Greek, Hades is a masculine term, and, unsurprisingly, personified as a male deity. Especially in Eastern Orthodox Christianity, which is heavily influenced by the Hellenisation of the Eastern Roman Empire, Hades is sometimes personified as a cosmic entity who gulps down all the dead, and hence did so to Jesus upon *his* death. But since Jesus could not be contained by the Underworld, Hades was forced to disgorge him. Hades could thus easily be interpreted as vomiting forth the dead in Revelation 20.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Hebrew and Syriac, however, Sheol is a feminine term, and so, while St Ephrem personifies Sheol in much the same way as the Eastern Roman Christians conceptualised Hades, his hymn's cosmic Underworld personage is female. Rather than regurgitating the dead who resurrect, Nisibene Hymn 37 has Sheol giving birth to Jesus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But lo! The Virgin has brought Him forth, and Sheol the barren&#xD;&#xA;&gt; has brought Him forth; two wombs that contrary to nature, have been&#xD;&#xA;&gt; changed by Him; the Virgin and Sheol both of them. The Virgin in her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bringing forth He made glad; but Sheol He grieved and made sad in His&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Resurrection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ephrem's Sheol is female while the Norse realm of Hel is ruled by a female deity, after whom it is named. Sheol mourns the &quot;birth&quot; of her &quot;reverse children,&quot; the resurrecting and escaping dead. Hel is most reluctant to let her own dead go, and in the one story in which an attempt is made to resurrect Balder, the recently deceased god of light, Hel stipulates that this will happen only if the entire cosmos mourns his demise. This plan fails and Balder is only released after the universal conflagration at the end of time. He is one of the two dead gods who returns from Hel's realm after the entire world perishes.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17443" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5233" RevisionGUID="cb58acee-de0c-4f46-b556-d8487c364928" CreationDate="2018-11-06T19:57:47.560" UserId="5448" Text="This is something I've been struggling with for a while now, something that I'm hoping someone with a background in mythology, folklore, and/or anthropology might be able to help me with.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I come from a religious background: I was raised as a Christian and as such, my ideas on &quot;spirits&quot; are heavily influenced by the trappings of those teachings.  There's a pretty narrow cultural understanding of what a spirit is and what it isn't.  Oversimplifying, and not taking into account subtleties in belief across the board when it comes to Christian teachings and disagreements, a &quot;spirit&quot; is usually an incorporeal being, or a facet of being.  It's almost universally used to describe demons or angels, but also  a facet of the human being, especially when you bring the whole &quot;God is a triune being&quot; thing into it, where the &quot;spirit&quot; is an incorporeal part of us as living things.  There isn't - universal agreement as to what that means, as far as I can see.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Many I've heard or spoken with agree, a spirit is not the same as a soul, but the difference between them is less certain.  Some believe the spirit to be a sort of repository for things like emotions, desires, things you've learned, biases, etc., stuff that might influence or make up your personality...others equate that to the soul, and not the spirit, and it just muddies the situation up even further.  I'm really no clearer on what a spirit is than when I began my research into the matter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Touching on angels and demons briefly, this becomes even less clear to me...because both tend to have historically corporeal or physical qualities.  Depending on who you ask, in Christian tradition, it's possible to mate with and have children with, spirits.  You can literally wrestle or grapple them.  They have the ability to change their appearance and I guess even their metaphysical qualities, as needed.  So that's...interesting...and hard to reconcile with my understanding.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then I get into other religions, belief systems, myths and legends, etc.  Spirits become increasingly less &quot;spiritual,&quot; at least when it comes to the area of physicality.  Some consider fay and faerie as spirits.  Some consider mythological creatures, like dragons, or the griffon, as spirits.  Asian traditions have many, many spirits, due to polytheistic and pantheistic ideas, many of which are living breathing &quot;things,&quot; and not necessarily wispy, bodyless beings.  Obviously the idea of a spirit is going to differ from culture to culture, like anything, but I'm finding very little by way of commonality between them all.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All I can really say, from the meager research that I've done, is that the only thing that is universally shared between &quot;spirits&quot; is that they are (A) more powerful than human beings or normal living things in some regard, often having magical or religious power, and (B) they have a quality that is noticeably inhuman in some way.  That's harder to nail down.  The importance of their distinction seems to be that they are respresentative of, or are even a manifestation of, something less tangible and more - conceptual? Emotional, maybe? - than a normal living thing is.  It's what makes them reverant and worthy of our awe, or terror, etc.  But I feel that's missing something fundamental.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's very hard for me to put this into a question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**I guess I'm hoping someone who has far more experience in this kind of thing can add something meaningful to this, so I can have a better grasp of what a &quot;spirit&quot; is when it comes to studying folklore, myth, legend, culture, etc.**  Is there some kind of list of qualities that spirits have?  I don't know.  I hope someone out there can detect what I'm hoping to have answered." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17444" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5233" RevisionGUID="cb58acee-de0c-4f46-b556-d8487c364928" CreationDate="2018-11-06T19:57:47.560" UserId="5448" Text="A unified understanding and description of a &quot;spirit&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17445" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5233" RevisionGUID="cb58acee-de0c-4f46-b556-d8487c364928" CreationDate="2018-11-06T19:57:47.560" UserId="5448" Text="|mythical-creatures|comparative|symbolism|interpretation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17446" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5208" RevisionGUID="ee86a2fe-4848-4e9e-a0a8-cb020f7b8caf" CreationDate="2018-11-06T20:18:52.003" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; tweaked some details" Text="**Yes, they can be killed, and also: yes, they can be captured and imprisoned**, according to at least one ancient source (see next section). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nothing in the original mythology states that the Titans are necessarily stronger than the gods. In fact, if anything, Hesiod's *Theogony*, for instance, repeatedly highlights the strength of the Olympians as an explanation of how they defeated their elder enemies to became the top dogs. Every situation bears different circumstances, which are what determine how easy or difficult it would be to capture or kill one of the gods. Not at all possess the same powers, resources or temperaments, so the results will vary on a case-by-case basis. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ares' Greatest Misadventure**  &#xD;&#xA;In Book 5 (Lines 381-391) of Homer's *Iliad*, the Oceanid Dione recounts the story to Aphrodite of how a pair of really young giant boys once wrapped the war-god Ares in chains and packed him into a metal jar, nearly killing him. (Further details on that in the second-last section below.) In this and every story in which a god is captured, his opponent is tremendously enormous, so I am assuming that the colossal size of the deity's captor is a major factor if not an outright requirement for the overpowering of the targeted divinity. Only two exceptions to this come to mind. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hera's Tricky Golden Chair**  &#xD;&#xA;In one of these exceptions, when Hephaistos [Hephaestus], the artisan of the gods, was young, he used a somewhat steampunk mechanical device—a golden chair with hidden fetters—to trap his mother Hera, who had thrown him away when he was a baby. Hera's other son Ares tried to release her from the trap but failed, whereupon none of the other gods could convince Hephaistos to extricate Hera from the device. Finally the wine-god Dionysos [Dionysus] tricked the artisan-god into getting drunk and brought him to Mt Olympos [Olympus] where Hera had been trapped, mother and son were conciliated to each other, and Hephaistos let Hera out of her inconvenient predicament. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Dionysos Goes on a Cruise**  &#xD;&#xA;The other exception features Dionysos in *his* youth, wherein he is captured and bound in ropes by a band of Tyrrhenian pirates posing as operators of a passenger ship. Dionysos, however, is merely toying with these corsairs, whom he terrorises by transforming parts of their vessel into ivy and snakes before changing all these men into dolphins.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Most Dead God &lt;sup&gt;Limited Edition&lt;/sup&gt;**  &#xD;&#xA;In Greek mythology there is only one instance of a full-fledged deity actually going through the full process of dying entirely as ordinary mortals do (although, in a way, he comes back to life again). This story, about Zagreus, however, is told by the Orphics, a mystical cult whose mythology was some distance left-field of the mainstream Olympian narratives and which borrows heavily from adapted Egyptian and Asian material. (More on Zagreus in the last section below.) Again there are two exceptions to this, which amount to not much at all after all.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Tomb of Zeus**  &#xD;&#xA;The first [exception] is a Cretan version of Zeus about whom it was said that he was actually a local prince who, like Adonis, had been gored to death by a wild boar. Several places on Crete Island displayed his tomb (one of which remains even down to the present day), but even in a time almost as far back as Homer and Hesiod, a famous poet and prophet named Epimenides, himself a Cretan, dismissed this story out of hand, decrying his fellow islanders as degenerate liars on account of this. A few centuries after Epimenides, Callimachus agreed with the Cretan prophet by quoting him on this point in his Hymn to Zeus. In between the times of these two, Pherecydes of Syros had expressed his belief that the Cretan Zeus tomb actually belonged instead to a giant who had been Zeus' school-teacher during the god's childhood on the island, and who thus was very closely associated with the Olympian king. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The So-Called Death of Pan**  &#xD;&#xA;The second exception comes from an essay written by Plutarch c. 100AD, in which he narrates the tale of how an Egyptian sailor heard a voice announcing to him across the water that he should spread a rumour saying that &quot;the great god Pan&quot; had died. The deity in question never himself makes a cameo in the story, which to me is clearly a metaphor for the subject-matter of the essay, *On the Obsolescence of Oracles*. The news of Pan's death is an allegory of the decline of certain aspects of popular Ancient Greek religion in Plutarch's time.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Disambiguating and Dismembering Khronos and Kronos**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a significant but often subtle and fairly confusing difference between the Titan Kronos (Κρόνος in Greek, which gets Anglicised to *Cronos* and *Cronus*), who became the father of Zeus; and the primordial mystical god Khronos (Χρόνος in Greek, which is Anglicised as *Chronos* or *Chronus*), the personification of time, who is essentially a part of the structure of the universe. In some Orphic cosmogonies Khronos is the father of Khaos [Chaos] and thus the ultimate origin of all things.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even though *Khronos*, meaning &quot;Time,&quot; from which we get English *chronology*, *chronometer* and *chronicle*, is a different word from *Kronos*, even in ancient times the two characters were confused and equated with each other. Plutarch mentions an allegorical interpretation that Kronos, who devours his own offspring, was a symbol of how the ravages of Time (Khronos) consumed posterity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the early 21st century AD, the most popular source for the idea that the Titan Kronos was chopped to pieces by his own children appears to be Rick Riordan's *Percy Jackson and the Olympians* series of books, movies and other related entertainment forms. Riordan does not seem to have invented this piece of neo-mythology, and from what I can tell it appears to have arisen from the conflation of the Titan with the Time-God.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In her 2012 poetry collection *In the Fullness of Time*, Anne Hughes' poem *At the Sea's Edge* says (p. 67):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Here is where death is—   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; time dissolved into that eternity   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; from which beauty is endlessly borne—   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; agony of Chronos dismembered;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; joy of Aphrodite depth-born&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a much older reference to the same mytheme, from 1862, in Volume 1 of the *London Society* Magazine. According to its article &quot;On the Grotesque in Things Sorrowful&quot; (p. 426),&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zeus... could only dismember his father Chronos or Time,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;the author thus confirming that s\he thinks Zeus is the son of the primaeval time-deity. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hughes, for her part, seems to be confusing the Titan (or perhaps the Time-God) with Kronos's father Ouranos [Uranus], the Sky. Kronos had dismembered Ouranos, not by chopping him to pieces, but by castration. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As early as the 19th century, therefore, the stories seem to have gotten heaped into a jumble in which Kronos and Khronos were totally merged, and the emasculation of Ouranos by Kronos somehow became the hatcheting of K(h)ronos by *his* child(ren) instead.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**K(h)ronos Still in One Piece**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is, however, no ancient myth at all in which Kronos [the Titan father of Zeus] is chopped into pieces by anyone, whether by his own progeny or someone other. No such thing happens to the cosmic Time-God Khronos either, whether we equate him with the Titan or not. The worst thing that happened to Kronos the Titan is that he got imprisoned in Tartaros [Tartarus], the vast storm-pit at the lowest level of the Underworld. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But even while incarcerated therein he still received prayers and libations from his children on Mt Olympos, who, according to *Iliad* 14, were required to invoke his name and those of the other Titans in the Underworld in order to ratify their most sacred oaths. Some time after the Trojan War, Zeus released Kronos and the Titans from Tartaros and granted them amnesty. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kronos, whose prison sentence had lasted thousands of years, was at this point still alive, well, and bodily intact. He ultimately, therefore, cannot be used as an example of a deity that died, except in the sense that he had inhabited the land of death for aeons, lying inert beneath the dwelling of the human dead who were housed in the layer of the netherworld which sat on top of Tartaros.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Mutilation**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ouranos, the character from whom originates the confused story about K(h)ronos being dismembered, himself did not die when his son Kronos chopped off a piece of him. It is *he* who was held down by his children and then dismembered. Of four of his sons, each one held down one of his four limbs, while a fifth son, Kronos, arose from the Earth beneath him in order to sever his reproductive organ from the rest of him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Far from killing Ouranos, instead this action produced yet more life, for the blood which spilled from this violence impregnated the Earth, which from it gave birth to the Furies and the ash-tree nymphs, as well as, in some versions, the Giants. More famously yet, the severed genitalia, dumped by Kronos into the Sea, transformed there into the lascivious goddess Aphrodite. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apart from the case of Zagreus, the loss of this one body-part is the most grievous injury sustained by any deity in Greek mythology. A very similar thing happens to Agdistis, a being born to Zeus and Gaia in Phrygia. Because Agdistis was born with both male and female organs, the gods feared the entity and cut off the male organ. Upon this emasculation, Agdistis was thenceforward the Phrygian goddess Kybele [Cybele]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An almond tree grew up out of Agdistis's discarded genitals. An almond from this tree then impregnated a local river-nymph, who gave birth to Attis, who, when he had grown up, was castrated and died. He was worshipped after his death and seems to have resurrected in his eunuch form. Attis evidently had been born and died a mortal man, only becoming a god after death, somewhat like Asklepios [Asclepius] and Herakles [Hercules].   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The mutilation of Ouranos and Agdistis represents a reduction of their power rather than their destruction. Ouranos loses his rule over the universe and becomes a deactivated part of the cosmos like the more inanimate primordial deities such as Erebos [Erebus] and Tartaros. Meanwhile Agdistis now appears in a less threatening form to the other divinities.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Varied Forms of Injury and Incapacitation&#xD;&#xA;-----------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    &#xD;&#xA;There is otherwise no level of damage inflicted upon Greek deities which comes close to being as severe as any kind of amputation. For several thousands of years the crucified Titan Prometheus has his liver torn out but it grows back almost every day, and he seems to be bodily intact once this torture ends. In one battle against the super-strong mortal hero Herakles, Hades is wounded in the shoulder, Hera in her right breast, and Ares in the thigh. They are each badly hurt but after a visit to their doctor they are all good as new.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Typhon vs Zeus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus has his head split open with an axe, a full-grown goddess bursts forth from his cloven skull, and he recovers just fine from that. Later in life Zeus undergoes an apparently more surgical procedure. As part of the Giants' attack on the Olympians, the cosmic-sized, many-armed, hundred-headed monster Typhon coiled around Zeus, presumably like a python with its prey, and cut the sinews out of Zeus's hands and feet. This apparently paralysed the king of the gods, whom Typhon then threw over his shoulders, carrying him across the Sea to his lair, a cave in Cilicia, Anatolia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here Typhon deposited Zeus, hiding the god's extraced sinews in a bear-skin which he placed under the guard of a female, part-dragon creature named Delphyne. Zeus's sons, the gods Hermes and Aigipan [Aegipan], managed to sneak past this sentinel and save their father by reconnecting him with his sinews. After this, a furious battle ensued between Zeus and Typhon which ended with the latter's demise or imprisonment.      &#xD;&#xA;      &#xD;&#xA;At the onset of his attack Typhon had threatened to release the confined Titans from Tartaros, to distribute the goddesses—especially the virgins—as brides among the Titans, the Giants and himself, and to enslave the male deities. Because Heaven was too small to contain him, Typhon planned to tear it down and rebuild it, with himself as its overlord. Zeus, for his part specifically, was slated to became the western pillar of the Sky, replacing the Titan Atlas in this mode of imprisonment.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But once Typhon had Zeus in his mercy, for some reason never explained to us, he did not do anything to him worse than paralysing him. It seems that he could well have killed him, but perhaps Zeus was not so easily slain and Typhon just didn't now how to finish him off. Maybe he intended to first display him in a triumph after fulfilling his promise of unearthing the anciently defeated Titans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Kidnapping the God of War**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A somewhat comical scenario had transpired some time not too far removed from Typhon's attack. Poseidon, the King of the Sea, had consorted with his own granddaughter Iphimedeia, and she bore him a pair of gigantic twin sons named Otos [Otus] and Ephialtes. These kids, whose stepfather was named Aloeus, and after whom they were called the Aloadai [Aloads], grew by nine inches every month. By the time they were nine years old they were each nine cubits wide and nine fathoms tall. In more modern parlance, they were each 18 feet (roughly 6m) wide and 54 feet (approx. 16m) tall.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In circumstances regarding which we are not informed, the twins once kidnapped Ares, who thus went missing for thirteen months, during which no other deity, so it seems, knew where he was. Heriboia was the second wife of Aloeus, and she somehow found out that her husband's giant stepsons had Ares. She fed Hermes this bit of intelligence, and he came in stealth-mode to rescue Ares. The Aloadai had clapped Ares in &quot;cruel bonds&quot; and shoved him into a bronze urn, within which he almost died, perhaps mostly from muscular atrophy and starvation, before Hermes came and stole him out of there. Doing what these boys did to Ares must have required the imposition of a prodigiously incredible amount of brute strength. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I base this on the fact that in the same poem which gives us the twins' measurements we are told that Ares' body, when he fell down, covered seven *plethra* of land, which is something like 6.3 square kilometres (almost 4 square miles). This comes from *Iliad* 21.405-410, the measurements contained therein having been translated variously into English as &quot;seven roods&quot; (A.T. Murray, 1924), &quot;seven acres&quot; (R. Lattimore, 1951) and &quot;over an acre&quot; (A.S. Kline's [PoetryInTranslation website](https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad21.php#anchor_Toc239246377)), all of which are significantly smaller than 6km&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; or 4 miles&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; but the least of which is still hundreds of times bigger than the Aloadai are supposed to have been. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In comparison to Ares, they might as well have been a pair of ants! We could perhaps explain this away by assuming that Ares, like his cousins Otos and Ephialtes, continued to gradually expand over the years so that he would have been significantly smaller back when they had nabbed him some generations earlier. Or that he only grew so extensively large on battlefields during wartime, such as in *Iliad* 21, which takes place in the thick of combat during the Trojan War.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The God Whom the Titans Assassinated**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the most bizarre stories in Greek myth takes place after Zeus rapes his own daughter Kore, who, renamed Persephone, becomes the queen of the Underworld by marrying Zeus' brother, her own uncle Hades. Before she gets married, she gives birth to Zeus's son Zagreus, a beautiful, and sort of monstrous, horned god. In her jealousy over the affection lavished upon this stepson of hers, Hera organises for a bunch of Titans to attack Zagreus, and they chop him to pieces using, as Nonnus calls it in his *Dionysiaca*, &quot;an infernal knife&quot;. This weapon might be some sort of ceremonial instrument from the Underworld. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This and other features of the confrontation with the baby god surely must be connected with the Mystery rituals of the Orphics: features such as how the Titans are able to sneak up on Zagreus because they have painted their faces with chalk and beguiled him with a mirror; and also the way in which he wildly changes himself into various forms before finally being slaughtered while in the guise of a bull.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Being butchered into beef is the closest that a Greek god ever gets to being &quot;reduced to a state of formlessness from which they are unable to return&quot;. The conception of such utter destruction does not seem to exist in the ancient myths. Every entity in the universe from the Sky down to the Earth and its mountains, islands, rivers, trees, animals and people, has an essence which continues to exist even after the body's disintegration. This essence is contained somewhere in the cosmos, e.g. most of the dead descend beneath the Earth's surface and are held in the house of Hades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are a few different accounts of what happens to the pieces of the slain Zagreus but the most central is his heart, which Zeus preserves. Centuries later, this organ, now powdered, he makes into a special drink for his lover Semele, who becomes the mother of Dionysos. Thus Zagreus becomes reincarnated as the raucous wine-god, a unique position in the mythology, as we have no other Greek deity who is a reincarnation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most of the remaining butchered Zagreus-beef supplies the Orphic myth about the creation of humankind. The same Titans who assassinated Zeus's son then devoured his flesh. In his rage over this,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Zeus used his lightning to reduce the murderers to ashes, from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which, after being mixed with earth and water, humankind then arose...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Orphics used this version of the creation story to explain why&#xD;&#xA;&gt; human beings are stuck in a wheel of death and rebirth (virtually&#xD;&#xA;&gt; identical to the concept of *saṃsāra* in Hinduism and Buddhism) with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the human soul (Dionysos Zagreus) and body (the Titans) as separate&#xD;&#xA;&gt; entities, the former trapped inside, or being devoured by, the latter.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ~ *From [my Answer to another&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Question*](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/1982/2682)&lt;/sup&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17447" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5234" RevisionGUID="9750affd-b8b3-4c77-a36b-198f5f638c94" CreationDate="2018-11-06T23:18:56.370" UserId="5511" Text="Let me try to answer your question by example of Eastern mythology and philosophy as I'm most familiar with those academically. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The origin of much the confusion is that the first translations from the scriptures of other cultures were either written or based on dictionaries created by Christian missionaries, as they were obligated to learn enough about the local languages to proselytize. But in fact, in the original language of these mythologies, people don't use the word &quot;spirit&quot; or our associated concepts. These terms were often translated intentionally into Christian jargon to &quot;claim ownership&quot;, as if the natives were, as Pope Benedict once said of the Native Americans &quot;silently awaiting salvation&quot;. This is not exclusive to Christianity: during the Enlightenment, Western scholars started to translate the Buddhist canon and chose the term &quot;enlightenment&quot; for the Pali word *Bodhi* or the Japanese *Satori*, which is a terrible translation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Buddhist and Hindu cosmology there are said to be different [realms](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%E1%B9%83s%C4%81ra), inhabited by different beings, the human and animal realms being two of these. There is also a realm inhabited by &quot;Preta&quot;, usually translated as &quot;hungry spirits&quot;, beings with huge desires and no means to fulfill these desires. The concepts associated with &quot;spirit&quot; in Christianity do not carry over to Buddhism or Hinduism. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarly, in Japanese Shinto -which we in the West would consider a form of animism- it is said that everything has its own [Kami](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinto), which is usually translated as spirit as well. The Japanese character for Kami, 神 derives from the archaic form &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;which semantically refers to *show; reveal; demonstrate; manifest* in nature. In other words, Kami are seen very much as part of the natural world, not the supernatural, much in the same way the Native American people would think of [nature spirits](http://www.native-languages.org/nature-spirits.htm). Incidentally, the Japanese word for the Judeo-Christian deity is Kami-Sama, where &quot;sama&quot; is a superlative honorific.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My general recommendation would be to find the actual word(s) used for &quot;spirits&quot; in the original language of the culture where it originates and look at the etymology. Incidentally, *spiritus* in Latin predates Christianity and used to mean &quot;breath&quot;, &quot;air&quot; or &quot;life&quot;. Consider that many of the Western examples you mention (faeries etc.) also predate Christianity. In fact, a lot of the Christian stories about the physical properties of spirits find their origin in the pagan [Fay](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairy)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/8A2Ac.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17448" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5235" RevisionGUID="e1c7a0c0-1cc0-4ab9-9b10-fd9aaa25a613" CreationDate="2018-11-06T23:47:06.630" UserId="5511" Text="A few suggestions:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Structural Study of Myth](https://people.ucsc.edu/~ktellez/levi-strauss.pdf)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Creation Myths of the World](https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&amp;field-keywords=978-1-59884-174-9&amp;rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3A978-1-59884-174-9)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Sacred Narrative: Readings in the Theory of Myth](https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&amp;field-keywords=+978-0-520-05192-8&amp;rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3A+978-0-520-05192-8)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Patterns in comparative religion](https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&amp;field-keywords=978-0-529-01915-8&amp;rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3A978-0-529-01915-8)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17449" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5236" RevisionGUID="c8cff6fe-5760-4471-be36-c596a05fa3ba" CreationDate="2018-11-07T08:36:22.890" UserId="2682" Text="**Hitherto Unknown Names; &amp; Issues with Scale**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as I can tell, by and large, what this art-form's contribution has been is pretty much just the addition to the mythology of a handful of stories and personages unattested in literature, e.g. there are a few Gigantes who fight against the gods and whose names do not occur in any currently extant ancient mythography. These are Pancrates, Euphorbus, Euboeus and (*what has to be the coolest name among the Giants*) Uranium.&lt;sup&gt;✭&lt;/sup&gt; For the most part the trickiest thing about virtually every ancient Greek art-form (particularly sculpture and pottery) and its correlation to the written stories also has to do with the Gigantes, who, at least in comparison to the gods and to humans, to do not seem to have been gigantic at all! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The vases depicting Heracles' fight with the Libyan Antaeus generally have the two wrestling opponents at the same size. The same goes for the Gigantes who attack the town of the Olympians in what comes to be known as the Gigantomachy: they are the same sizes as their enemies, with the exception of Alcyoneus, who is usually huge in comparison to those who contend with him. The Cyclops Polyphemus is also usually about twice the size of Odysseus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps the easiest way out of this conundrum is to conclude that the painters simply didn't have enough space in which to work for the sake of portraying these characters to scale. Otherwise one might have to say that the Gigantes (and also the Titans, who, on pottery, generally are also simply the same size as deities and human beings) only gained their great stature later in writing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Snapshots of Tales Untold**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Herakles vs Geras][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;*Heracles vs Geras* on Attic red-figured pelike *[Photo Taken May 6, 2013, by Egisto Sani]*&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;There is a lost myth in which the great hero Heracles, in some context, fights against Geras, &quot;Old Age&quot; himself, presumably winning in the end(?). Perhaps the sequel to this (or vice versa) is what we do know from writings about Heracles' ultimate fate, in which he marries his own half-sister the goddess Hebe, &quot;Youth,&quot; after gaining immortality for himself. Heracles had, appropriately, also fought against and defeated Geras' brother Thanatos, &quot;Death.&quot; According to Wikipedia, Geras is primarily known from the vase paintings depicting him with Heracles.&lt;sup&gt;✭✭&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Speaking of lost myths, it is most incredible to me that there might be missing stories, floating out there in the aether, about winged Centaurs!   &#xD;&#xA;[![Winged Centaurs][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;How could it be possible that such cool creatures don't receive a single mention in any major (or even minor) myth, especially considering how prominent Centaurs are during Heracles' lifetime? Well, this being yet more &quot;lost mythology,&quot; I suppose these creatures may have appeared at any other random point in the chronology, far removed from the more famous characters.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**A More Bovine Nessus?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Heracles vs Bucentaur Nessus][3]][3]  &#xD;&#xA;And speaking of Heracles and Centaurs, here (above) the Centaur Nessus appears being manhandled by Heracles. The Centaur's lower features distinctively seem to make him into, rather than the more mainstream Hippocentaur (&quot;Horse-Centaur&quot;) variety of his kind, into a *Bu*centaur, a creature with the exact same configuration as an equine Centaur, except with bull rather than horse parts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;✭ Well, actually, in the original Greek *Oranion* or *Ouranion* (&quot;Small Heaven&quot;?).&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;✭✭ That image, though, depending on how you take it, perhaps frames Heracles in a really bad light, since he's really about to beat up on a little old man with his huge club.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/JC0IV.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/bGtTH.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/cUlip.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17454" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5239" RevisionGUID="f495aebe-dc65-4f3f-9260-9c142bbbbadd" CreationDate="2018-11-08T22:41:01.560" UserDisplayName="user5459" Text="I remember back when I was young that I saw an episode of Smurfs featuring a castle that disappears and reappears each few centuries and when, more recently, I thought about it I became somewhat interested in stories with a similar concept. So are there any such stories and where can I find them?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17455" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5239" RevisionGUID="f495aebe-dc65-4f3f-9260-9c142bbbbadd" CreationDate="2018-11-08T22:41:01.560" UserDisplayName="user5459" Text="Stories of areas/buildings/objects that disappear and reappear during fixed intervals?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17456" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5239" RevisionGUID="f495aebe-dc65-4f3f-9260-9c142bbbbadd" CreationDate="2018-11-08T22:41:01.560" UserDisplayName="user5459" Text="|folklore|fairy-tales|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17457" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5239" RevisionGUID="b04729a5-1122-4856-9241-43b48d7685d1" CreationDate="2018-11-08T22:50:07.790" UserDisplayName="user5459" Comment="edited body" Text="I remember back when I was young that I saw an episode of Smurfs featuring a castle that disappears and reappears each few centuries and when, more recently, I thought about the whole concept I became somewhat interested in stories with it. So are there any such stories and where can I find them?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17458" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5239" RevisionGUID="07b724ab-8dc7-4c58-83fe-65e21ff21912" CreationDate="2018-11-08T23:27:33.060" UserDisplayName="user5459" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body" Text="I remember back when I was young that I saw an episode of Smurfs featuring a castle that disappears and reappears each few centuries and when, more recently, I thought about the whole concept of something disappearing and reappearing like this I became somewhat interested in stories with it. So are there any such stories and where can I find them?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17459" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5240" RevisionGUID="50631153-47cb-4a98-b7dc-ce9c11dc76e6" CreationDate="2018-11-09T06:18:36.377" UserId="2682" Text="**Hesiod's *Theogony***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Greek mythology there are a few different theogonies (accounts of the origin of the gods), the most &quot;mainstream&quot; of which is entitled simply the *Theogony*, written by the poet Hesiod. In this poem of Hesiod's, Gaia (the Earth), without the assistance of male seed, gave birth to Uranus (the Sky), in order for him to be a sort of dome to cover her surface, the heavens here being envisioned as something like an upside-down bowl fitted over the plate-like disc-shaped earth. Gaia then married this son of hers, just as she consorted with her other son Pontus (the Sea), who was born shortly after Uranus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Before Gaia there was Chaos, the expanse of emptiness in the space afterwards filled by the universe. What Hesiod says about the origin of Gaia is ambiguous and can be interpreted to mean either that Chaos spontaneously became the first being to exist, after which Gaia then just as spontaneously became the second entity; or that Chaos gave birth to Gaia in much the same way that Gaia later gave birth to Uranus and Pontus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Erebus (Darkness) and Nyx (Night) are among a few other beings who emerged from Chaos, or nothingness, in the beginning. They married each other and became the parents of Aether (the clear bright air above the clouds) and Hemera (Day[time]), who themselves married each other and likewise produced offspring.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Orphic Literature**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Fragments of surviving Orphic cosmogonies (accounts of the world's origin) tell a similar story except that in them it seems to be of quite some importance that Hydros, &quot;Water,&quot; is understood to be the basic element of existence, and thus Hydros was the original being, similar to Hesiod's Chaos. Out of Hydros silted forth Gaia, in the form of mud, who thus is the daughter of Hydros, by whom she became the mother of Chronus, &quot;Time&quot; (who is not to be confused with the Titan Cronus). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Confusingly the account goes on to tell us that Chronus then laid an egg containing the universe, which is to say: Heaven [Uranus] and Earth [Gaia]. Presumably in this perspective Uranus is the egg's shell and Gaia is its yolk, with other major elements of the cosmic structure being the stuff in between. Meanwhile there is an Orphic Theogony fragment which calls Uranus a &quot;son of Nyx.&quot;    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hyginus' *Preface***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the Roman writer Hyginus, Chaos was produced by Caligine, &quot;Fog&quot; [i.e. mists of darkness]. To him, so it would seem, Chaos is male and Caligine is female. The two got married and together became the parents of Erebus and Nox (the Roman Nyx). Erebus and Nox then become the parents of Aether and Diēs (the Roman Hemera).&#xD;&#xA;Aether and Diēs then became the parents of Caeus (the Roman Uranus) and Terra (the Roman Gaia). Caelus and Terra also got married and their offspring correspond by and large to the Greek version of their story, the main group being the Titans, who then gave rise to the Olympians. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;*Part of the above is adapted from [my Answer to another Question](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/1755/2682).*&lt;/sup&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17463" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="5222" RevisionGUID="7f47163a-9784-48d0-b8d7-6e500a650958" CreationDate="2018-11-09T08:12:17.037" UserId="108" Comment="101" Text="{&quot;OriginalQuestionIds&quot;:[748],&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:201,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Lauren Ipsum&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:2774,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Gibet&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:2807,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Rodia&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:108,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Semaphore&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="17464" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5241" RevisionGUID="cd302bfd-b6ca-4ce7-bc40-9f5f1b0050dc" CreationDate="2018-11-10T05:33:37.020" UserId="5539" Text="Could you please explain, while doing worshiping, according to Hindu Mythology, why do people produce smoke through burning joss sticks; light a candle-like light called &quot;Dip jyoti&quot; prepared from cotton-swab and mustard oil or margarine; and ring a metallic bell (made up of alloy of brass and iron) and while doing so all the three items (joss sticks, light, and bell are moved around the &quot;Almighty&quot; in clock-wise direction? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17465" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5241" RevisionGUID="cd302bfd-b6ca-4ce7-bc40-9f5f1b0050dc" CreationDate="2018-11-10T05:33:37.020" UserId="5539" Text="According to Hindu Mythology, why do people produce smoke, light and ring the bell?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17466" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5241" RevisionGUID="cd302bfd-b6ca-4ce7-bc40-9f5f1b0050dc" CreationDate="2018-11-10T05:33:37.020" UserId="5539" Text="|myth-identification|hindu|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17467" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5242" RevisionGUID="33bff3ea-35eb-4138-afea-c6028c665993" CreationDate="2018-11-10T09:41:06.547" UserId="5511" Text="In [Aarti](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aarti), a part of the [Puja](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puja_(Hinduism)) ritual, the burning of incense is said to be cleaning the air, and thus making it easier for the [devas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deva_(Hinduism)) or other divine beings to manifest themselves in the place of incantation. This ritual is not limited to worship, but is also used to welcome a guest to your house (making it easier for him/her to reside in your house by purifying the air). In Indian movies you can often see a guest being welcomed in this way, the host can wave the incense over the head of the guest using their hands.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the candle-lighting, this [video for children](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXG2m7bwXJ4&amp;ab_channel=ShemarooBhakti) has some English translations of an accompanying incantation text that explain its purpose.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ringing of the bell (a clear sound) welcomes the deities in a similar philosophy as the incense." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17468" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5243" RevisionGUID="4025eff2-be15-4ea9-8101-95b8d6e30ee2" CreationDate="2018-11-10T09:54:09.350" UserId="5511" Text="This is not only found in mythology. In Shintoism, it is customary to [break down and rebuild shrines](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/this-japanese-shrine-has-been-torn-down-and-rebuilt-every-20-years-for-the-past-millennium-575558/) at intervals of decennia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Arthurian mythology, [Avalon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalon) could be hidden from the world. Inspired by this, in the lore of J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle-Earth, [Valinor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valinor) could be made to dissapear at the whim of the [Valar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vala_(Middle-earth)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many references to cities and islands that can be hidden at the whim of the gods in [Homer's Odyssey](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odyssey).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17469" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5244" RevisionGUID="efe27a19-ac02-4d41-a05c-235b002ccc6c" CreationDate="2018-11-10T11:55:52.757" UserId="5511" Text="The &quot;hippo form&quot; of Egyptian female deities is generally linked to their protective qualities, especially in childbirth. The reason for this: the hippo female is a fierce protector of her young. In fact, the name &quot;[Taweret](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taweret)&quot; means &quot;she who is great&quot; and is given to soothe the aggression of the (hippo) deity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The essential difference between the two is that Nephthys plays an integral part in the Egyptian pantheon as one of the earliest deities from early after the creation myth as daughter of Geb and Nut. Tawaret is essentially a &quot;household deity&quot; worshiped by the common people and never had any significant centers of worship built for her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Her appearance in the meth of Seth is actually a mixup in the later dynasties, where the original &quot;actress&quot; in this myth, Isis, incarnates as Taweret. Details for this can be found in the 20th Dynasty text &quot;[The Book of Day &amp; Night](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taweret#In_mythology)&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As to this foreleg of Seth, it is in the northern sky, tied down to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; two mooring posts of flint by a chain of gold. It is entrusted to Isis&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as a hippopotamus guarding it.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When assuming a protective role, powerful goddesses like Isis assumed the form of Taweret, effectively becoming a manifestation of this goddess. Likewise, Taweret gradually absorbed qualities of these goddesses and is commonly seen wearing the Hathoric sun disc that is iconographically associated with both Hathor and Isis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17470" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5245" RevisionGUID="e28dbf3e-c724-4c5b-a985-6e107d71d079" CreationDate="2018-11-10T13:01:06.520" UserId="5511" Text="There's only one story that springs to mind, but it is from the Greek occupation period: Plutarch writes that Nephthys, sister of Isis, was married to Seth, but since this deity is associated with infertility, this marriage produced no children. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to some versions of the Osiris myth, Nephthys intoxicated Osiris, her sister's husband, to conceive Anubis. In other versions, [Anubis is the illegitimate son of Ra and Nephthys](https://www.questia.com/read/107525007/a-dictionary-of-egyptian-gods-and-goddesses). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Plutarch also writes that Isis [adopted her sister's illegitimate son](http://yadda.icm.edu.pl/bazhum/element/bwmeta1.element.dl-catalog-fc7b5edc-78d2-450b-a88d-c42557950ea9/c/Organon-r2002-t31-s128-148.pdf):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For when Isis found out that Osiris loved her sister and had relations&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with her in mistaking her sister for herself, and when she saw a proof&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of it in the form of a garland of clover that he had left to Nephthys&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - she was looking for a baby, because Nephthys abandoned it at once after it had been born for fear of Seth; and when Isis found the baby&#xD;&#xA;&gt; helped by the dogs which with great difficulties lead her there, she&#xD;&#xA;&gt; raised him and he became her guard and ally by the name of Anubis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, since all these stories date from the Greek occupation, they are possibly &quot;contaminations&quot; from the Greek pantheon, as in earlier periods, [infidelity was very much a taboo in Ancient Egypt](https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1277&amp;context=jclc), although, as in most cultures, men were given much more lenience than women in this matter." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17471" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5246" RevisionGUID="e9707521-5c01-4585-92f1-d5b815685f48" CreationDate="2018-11-10T13:34:04.900" UserId="5539" Text="Zues is King of Gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; God of the sky, lightning, thunder, law, order, and justice&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;but how and why? Why he is called King of all gods? Which made him king and what were those factors that he was picked or became King of Gods.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17472" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5246" RevisionGUID="e9707521-5c01-4585-92f1-d5b815685f48" CreationDate="2018-11-10T13:34:04.900" UserId="5539" Text="How Zues became king of the gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17473" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5246" RevisionGUID="e9707521-5c01-4585-92f1-d5b815685f48" CreationDate="2018-11-10T13:34:04.900" UserId="5539" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17474" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5247" RevisionGUID="9940a79f-8325-4177-b97f-3e136af507a5" CreationDate="2018-11-10T14:33:10.527" UserId="5511" Text="This answer assumes you are referring to the [Third Eye](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_eye), not the [Mind's Eye](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_image).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yes, there are documented instances in other cultures where the seat for the cultural equivalence of the third eye is elsewhere in or on the body. For example, in certain lineages of Buddhism (notable Ch'an or Zen) this function has been said to permeate the body. From the 12th century Blue Cliff Record collection:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Yunyan said,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “All over the body are hands and eyes.” Daowu said, “That is very well&#xD;&#xA;&gt; expressed, but it is only eight-tenths of the answer.” Yunyan said,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “How would you say it, elder brother?” Daowu said, “Throughout the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; body are hands and eyes.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that this is not a universally held view in Buddhism. In most lineages this feature can reside in different [chakras](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakra), as it does in Hinduism. In many other lineages this is placed between or just above the eyes, like in Taoism. It is also the predominant location in North and South american cultures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are also cultures/mythologies where the eye plays a powerful role even when *detached* from the owner's body, like in Egyptian mythology. The origin of the wadjet&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;associated with Horus actually goes back on a much older origin story involving the disembodied eye of [Atum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atum#Relationship_to_other_gods), the creator deity, which he sent out to find his children Shu and Tefnut who had wandered off. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Arguably, the Christian/Freemason Eye of Providence is at least inspired by this legend as it is often depicted on a pyramid.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/AEOtL.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/wDYxx.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17475" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5248" RevisionGUID="7e7c6b16-ebdd-4704-84cd-5cda27022588" CreationDate="2018-11-10T14:50:51.350" UserId="5511" Text="This is not actually a reference to a person, but to a [yuga](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuga) (an era).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the present days we may be said to live in Kali Yuga, which is said to have started in 3102 BCE with the end of the Mahabharata war. From the Mahabharata text:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Parikshit was a great ruler and looked very well after Hastinapur. But&#xD;&#xA;&gt; unknown to the Pandavas and Parikshit, a greater threat loomed with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the death of Lord Krishna.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; During the ninth day of the Mahabharatha war between the Pandavas and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Kauravas, the third yuga had ended and last yuga - Kali yuga had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; started. However because of the power of Lord Krishna, Kali could not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; spread all through the earth....&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Kali (destructive) Yuga is the last era in the Hinduist cycle of time. It follows the Satya (golden, perfect), Treta (some negative), and Dwapara (50% negative) Yugas. It is named after Kali, the Hindu female deity of death and destruction.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17476" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5249" RevisionGUID="8ae98d76-31cc-48d8-89a9-299d8ee8aecc" CreationDate="2018-11-10T22:43:38.600" UserId="5511" Text="In Ancient Egyptian mythology, Geb (male) is the earth and his sister Nut is the sky, held apart by their father Shu.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Shinto mythology, the Japanese islands are &quot;teamwork&quot; of male and female, [Izanagi and Izanami](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuniumi).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Hinduism, a triumvirate consists of three male gods who are responsible for the creation, upkeep and destruction of the world: resp. Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Etruskan earth God Cel (also called Cilens or Celens).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/sftIP.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/3lvVG.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/B3ikO.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17477" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5250" RevisionGUID="c41e64c3-ab48-4c11-a2b8-3c83556f99b1" CreationDate="2018-11-10T23:29:58.330" UserId="5511" Text="The [Gorgoneion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgoneion) is a likely origin for the priestess masks. The practice of these amulets as aspects of the Mother Goddess dates back to the Neolithic Age. The [oldest Gorgon mask](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sesklo#Sesklo_culture) is from [Greek Sesklo culture before 6000 BC](https://books.google.be/books?id=7DfI39EDbMcC&amp;redir_esc=y), but they have been excavated in many places from Etruskia to the Black sea coast.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17478" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5251" RevisionGUID="6ed5aa4e-f6f6-4fd0-8e5e-a5186b02a09b" CreationDate="2018-11-11T14:11:47.850" UserId="201" Text="Zeus, his siblings, and his allies overthrew his father Kronos, who had eaten his siblings in an attempt to thwart the prophecy which said that one of his children would overthrow him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When all was said and done, Zeus and his brothers Poseidon and Hades drew lots or threw dice or executed some other game of chance to see who would rule what part of the world. Zeus won, making him king. He chose the sky to rule. Poseidon was second, and chose the sea; Hades, getting the leftovers, was given the underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Zeus.html&quot;&gt;Theoi's article on Zeus,&lt;/a&gt; which attributes the myth to Homer's *Iliad* xv. 187, &amp;c., i. 528, ii. 111; and Virgil's *Aeneid* iv. 372. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17479" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5123" RevisionGUID="12d3d1e2-a605-41d4-8167-e98b2c1847d2" CreationDate="2018-11-11T16:42:28.507" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; added info" Text="The oldest written accounts are ambiguous on this point, so it is somewhat difficult to ascertain whether these two are not, in fact, merely aspects of the same tradition rather than two completely distinct, contradictory ones.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod, in his *Theogony* (c. 700 BC), simply says that Dionysus married Ariadne, with no mention at all of Theseus. The one source which is either as old as or even older than Hesiod is Homer's *Odyssey*, which contains a puzzlingly different rendition of the relationship between the wine-god and the Cretan princess. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here, so we are told, Theseus took Ariadne from Crete with the intention of conveying her to Athens, &quot;yet he had no joy of her, since, before&quot; they could, apparently, consummate their union, Artemis killed Ariadne on Dia Island, seemingly at the instigation of Dionysus. Unlike Hesiod's Ariadne, who becomes &quot;deathless and unageing,&quot; the *Odyssey* has Ariadne languishing in dank gloominess, in the land of the dead, long enough after her death for Odysseus to encounter her there when he adventures through the netherworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we lay all that aside, though, and go only straight for clear and explicit information, the first time we encounter one of the versions of the story that you have specified is in Book 4 of Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautica* in the 200s BC. In it, Dionysus marries&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the fair young Ariadne, whom Theseus carried off from Cnossus and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; abandoned on the isle of Dia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The other version first occurs a couple of centuries later, in the *Bibliotheca Historica* of Diodorus Siculus. This plainly says that Dionysus snatched Ariadne &quot;away from Theseus and kept her as his lawful wife, loving her exceedingly.&quot; Book 5 is even blunter, having Dionysus visit Theseus in a dream &quot;threatening him if he would not forsake Ariadne&quot; so that Dionysus might have his way with her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Based on this evidence then, the first version to be written is the one in which Theseus leaves Ariadne behind without divine intervention.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would note, speculatively speaking, however, that Apollonius could actually mean that Theseus' abandonment of Ariadne had been demanded of him but that this writer doesn't mention it because his original reader is already familiar with this detail and takes it for granted. This is bolstered by the fact that, even though, as aforementioned, the *Theogony* does not mention Theseus, there are ancient writers, namely Plutarch (*Life of Theseus* 20) and Athenaeus (*Deipnosophists* 13.557), who tell us that Hesiod does in fact refer to Theseus. Athenaeus goes so far as to inform us that it was on account of two other women, Hippe and Aegle, that Theseus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; broke the oaths which he had sworn to Ariadne, as Cercops tells us.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Life of Theseus* Plutarch claims that a certain Peisistratus deleted this verse &quot;from the poems of Hesiod&quot; which speaks of Theseus' reason for absconding on Ariadne:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dreadful indeed was his passion for Aegle child of Panopeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If they are right about this then the older version is still definitely that in which Theseus is not coerced by any god into abandoning the Cretan princess but does so of his own volition." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17480" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5246" RevisionGUID="4edcb164-a07c-4a41-97bc-2afefb70a7ad" CreationDate="2018-11-11T17:20:21.133" UserId="1317" Comment="Correct spelling" Text="Zeus is King of Gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; God of the sky, lightning, thunder, law, order, and justice&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;but how and why? Why he is called King of all gods? Which made him king and what were those factors that he was picked or became King of Gods.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17481" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5246" RevisionGUID="4edcb164-a07c-4a41-97bc-2afefb70a7ad" CreationDate="2018-11-11T17:20:21.133" UserId="1317" Comment="Correct spelling" Text="How Zeus became king of the gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17482" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5246" RevisionGUID="4edcb164-a07c-4a41-97bc-2afefb70a7ad" CreationDate="2018-11-11T17:20:21.133" Comment="Proposed by 1317 approved by 2682, 57 edit id of 1684" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17483" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5232" RevisionGUID="9e90aa2c-0d69-404b-a70c-ab01c0f20bc4" CreationDate="2018-11-11T21:59:46.117" UserId="4271" Comment="fixed myth, made paragraphs intended by author" Text="Okay, first of all, Apollo is actually pretty neutral in the beginning of the war, very much like Zeus. It's after Zeus orders him to go get involved that he enters the war. Zeus secretly favored the Trojans, and hence he sent Apollo to help them. Apollo did that.  &#xD;&#xA;But we can't deny that Apollo did that just because Zeus asked him to. First of all, Apollo doesn't like Achilles. During the war, Achilles had killed a son of Apollo in spite of Thetis giving the clear warning: &quot;Don't kill him. If you do, you'll be killed by Apollo.&quot; But of course, Achilles ignores and kills Tenes. So it's natural that Apollo would be against Achilles.  &#xD;&#xA;Also, Apollo has 2 sons of his fighting for Troy. One is Troilus, and the other is Hector (who is Apollo's son according to some poets). So obviously he'd favor Troy." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17484" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5252" RevisionGUID="5494d3d5-ae51-491d-bde3-a2513e146b05" CreationDate="2018-11-11T22:18:35.283" UserId="4271" Text="Tenes was a son of Apollo or King Cycnus and was falsely accused of forced intercourse. He was found guilty. As punishment, he and his sister were put in a box (much like the legend of Perseus and his mother I noticed) and set a sail.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; However, the chest landed at the island of Leucophrye, which was later renamed Tenedos, and the two survived. The natives of the island pronounced Tenes their king.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Tenes][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why would/did the natives of Leucophrye make Tenes king? What did he do?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenes" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17485" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5252" RevisionGUID="5494d3d5-ae51-491d-bde3-a2513e146b05" CreationDate="2018-11-11T22:18:35.283" UserId="4271" Text="Why was Tenes made king?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17486" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5252" RevisionGUID="5494d3d5-ae51-491d-bde3-a2513e146b05" CreationDate="2018-11-11T22:18:35.283" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|myth-identification|apollo|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17487" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4643" RevisionGUID="14abcb9c-30dc-4a01-b73b-09cff8b79f54" CreationDate="2018-11-12T05:17:33.037" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="In the [DC Comics version of Greco-Roman mythology](http://wonder-woman.wikia.com/wiki/Ares) there are indeed plenty of stories which pit Ares against the Amazons and those which ally these women with Zeus. There are also some of these comicbook stories in which antagonism occurs between Zeus and the Amazons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In ancient mythography, however, it does not seem that the Amazons are ever even mentioned alongside Zeus in the same sentence. As for Ares, there are two quite indirect references that serve as a possibility but which I would say still add up to a “No” as well. These are both from the adventures of Theseus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The War Against Attika** [Attica]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The saga of Theseus’ interaction with the Amazons has it that at some point after he became king of Attika, Theseus participated in an expedition to the land of the Amazons either as his own project or as part of the ninth *athlos* (labour/ task) of Herakles which required that the girdle of the Amazon queen Hippolyta be brought to Argolis. While he was in their territory Theseus abducted either the queen herself or, as is more commonly reported, the queen’s sister Antiope (in one version of the story these two women’s names are swapped around too).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Taking the royal Amazon family member back to Attika with him, Theseus married her and she bore him a son. Some years afterwards Hippolyta (or whatever the Amazon queen’s name was) came to Attika with her entire army and besieged Theseus’ kingdom for three months in a bid to retrieve her sister therefrom. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Theseus’ wife fought by his side against her own sister and her own people, and was run through with a spear by the Amazon Molpadia when Molpadia found out that Antiope wanted to stay with her husband. Molpadia was then killed and the Amazons eventually lost the war, their queen retreating with her remaining forces to Megara and dying there in grief while nursing the mortal wounds she had sustained.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After Theseus’ death a festival, called the Theseia, was instituted to celebrate the great hero king. Prior to this celebration, however, the Athenians always performed a sacrifice in honour of the fallen Amazons. The place by the Areiopagos, the &quot;Crag/Hill of Ares,&quot; at which the warrior women had established their camp was named the Amazonion [Amazonium], and the citadel and lofty towers which the women had built upon it rivalled those around Theseus' palace.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his *Life of Theseus*, Plutarch says that prior to his first foray into combat against the Amazons, an oracle had instructed Theseus to offer a sacrifice to Phobos, the *daimon* son of Ares who personified fear, especially the fear which leads to retreat from the battlefield.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Pausanias’ *Description of Greece*, at the city of Troizenos [Troezen], there was, on the way down to the harbour, a place called Kelenderis. A particular spot here had been named Genethlion, “Birthplace,” because it is where Theseus was born. Also on this spot Theseus had waged war against the Amazons during their attack upon his domain. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Before this place [Genethlion] is a temple of Ares, for here also did&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Theseus conquer the Amazons in battle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pausanias does not explicitly say that it is the case, but Florence Mary Bennett, in her book *Religious Cults Associated with the Amazons* (p. 58), interprets this to mean that Theseus is the one who built the Ares temple at Genethlion in order to commemorate his victory over these women.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The implication here is that Ares favoured Theseus over the Amazons. That, however, need not be the case.  After all, the Amazons’ enemies the Athenians themselves performed religious ceremonies in honour of the Amazons that they themselves had killed. Granted that the Athenians were notorious down into later times for being hyper-religious, trying to be careful to honour every last deity and divinity that they came across. This was so much so that by the Roman period it would be remarked that it was easier to find a god (i.e. an idol) than a man in Athens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;During the trial of Orestes on the Athenian Areipoagos in Aeschylus’ *Eumenides*, the goddess Athena points out to the court that the Amazons performed sacrifice to Ares on this very spot during their siege of Attika a generation prior to this trial. That the women's sacrifices did not avail them of victory might strengthen the notion that Ares was in some way opposed to the Amazons in this instance. It is, however, a glaring phenomenon in the mythology that Ares, even when he himself participates in wars personally (maybe *especially* when he does), is really not good at winning them, in spite of his immense size! In his most dramatic battlefield altercations on Earth, those against Herakles and Diomedes, he is so badly wounded by these mortals that he must repair to the home of the gods for an urgent patch-up in the divine infirmary.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An additional consideration to be made regarding the war between Theseus and the Amazons is that one of Ares’ daughters, Theseus’ wife (typically Antiope, although Plutarch notes that Cleidemus names her Hippolyta, who nonetheless by all accounts is also Ares’ offspring), is fighting on the side of the Athenians. If we are to understand Theseus’ ceremonial activity in connection with this conflict (the sacrifice to Phobos and the construction of the Genethlion shrine to Ares) as an indication of Ares’ disfavour towards the Amazons, it could conversely be interpreted that the one Amazon who is fighting against her own people might be the one bearing her father’s favour in this case.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Harmony**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The characterisation of the DC Amazons as a society of peace-loving yet formidable warriors can be rendered as an unintentional exploration of the other side of this nation’s origin in the ancient myths. Admittedly this theory is based entirely on the etymology of one character’s name, which is by no means overtly consequential in any story. As your *Argonautika* quote says, the first Amazons were the daughters of Ares by an obscure nymph named Harmonia in the “Wood of Akmon”, which I find to be a most tantalising reference indeed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;DC Comics and the 2017 *Wonder Woman* movie may have ended up inadvertently exploring the maternal origins of the Amazons in a deeper understanding than the ancient Greco-Roman writers. It’s as if someone had asked these questions: What if the name of the Amazons’ mother Harmonia, “Harmony,” is an indication that she is a personification of peace and tranquillity just as much as Ares personifies senseless violence and *en masse* belligerence? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And if so, what if the Amazons had taken after their mother rather than their father? This line of theory breaks down eventually because in the DC lore Ares is *not* the Amazons’ father nor in fact is Harmonia their mother. But it points to an interesting nuance that could conceivably have stronger roots in the original version of this mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The references in Plutarch and Pausanias would appear to be the closest one could get to a conflict between Ares and the Amazons, and, as stated before, I don’t think that they can be counted as such in any meaningful sense.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond him siring the Amazons upon the nymph Harmonia, him siring a few more daughters upon Otrere and Oreithyia, and him giving Hippolyta her famous girdle, Ares really has no direct interaction with any Amazon in the ancient mythology, whether positive or negative. If anything Ares' relations with the Amazons is made conspicuous by his absence among them! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In their two most famous confrontations before the Trojan War, their fights with Herakles and with Theseus, Ares doesn't show up at all like he does during Herakles' duel against Ares' son [Kyknos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycnus_(son_of_Ares)) [Cycnus] or during [Herakles' attack on the city of Pylos](http://www.greecetravel.com/greekmyths/argos12.htm). Moreover the battle with Herakles is the result of Ares's mother Hera herself making an appearance for the purpose of provoking violence between Herakles and the warrior women. Beyond this apparent neglect on Ares's part, the Amazons are certainly, to go back again to Apollonius Rhodius, depicted as bellicose and pugnacious, which should make them just Ares' kinda gals! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Other Deities**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond Ares' overall MIA status among the warrior women in question, the Amazons, as a matter of fact, barely have contact with any deity in general. There are only two exceptions to this that I am aware of: Artemis and Dionysos [Dionysus]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Diodorus Siculus’ *Bibliotheka Historika*, the Amazons Kelaino [Celaeno], Eurybia and Phoibe [Phoebe] are said to have been hunting companions of Artemis. They were slain, all three of them, fighting to defend their queendom when Herakles came to fetch Queen Hippolyta’s girdle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dionysos, during his tumultuous campaign around the world, made war on the Amazons. Pausanias says that some of them fled before him, ending up as suppliants at the temple of Artemis Ephesia (Artemis of Ephesos [Ephesus]), which sanctuary a queen of theirs had built long before then. As he was in the habit of doing, such as when he had conquered the Indians, he added some of his defeated foes to his retinue. “Those Thermodontian hordes” of “warrior women”, Seneca tell us, were turned into [Mainades](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maenad) [Maenades].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dionysos' genealogy is intriguing background character information which nevertheless does not seem to affect the story: Dionysos himself is Ares' offspring, since Ares is his great-grandfather. Just like in the encounters with Herakles and Theseus, here is another major conflict in which the Amazons are engaged but in which Ares does not feature at all, although nothing in what we know about the story indicates that it is because he was supporting his more distant descendant, the god of wine, over against his daughters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dionysos bears a connection with Harmonia as well: Dionysos' mother Semele is the daughter of Harmonia daughter of Ares. This Harmonia, however, is explicitly said to have been the goddess of harmony and concord; she is Ares' daughter rather than his lover; and she becomes queen of Thebes after marrying the city's founder Kadmos [Cadmus], to whom she bears Semele. The coincidence that there are two Harmoniai (Harmonias) who are both associated with Ares is fascinatingly curious. Aaron Atsma's analysis of it is that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Amazonian Harmonia does not appear to have been identified with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Theban Harmonia. They both have the Greek word *harmonia*,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;harmony,&quot; for a name but in the case of the Amazon it no doubt&#xD;&#xA;&gt; referred to the harmony of military formation whereas the Theban queen&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was harmony in the sense of marital bliss.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17488" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5253" RevisionGUID="f5e74c45-ffc1-4bb6-8920-d4a7eadf3361" CreationDate="2018-11-12T18:55:51.520" UserId="742" Text="My esteemed brother-in-law just emailed me an answer. He wrote:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Shalsheleth Haqabbalah may not be as good as a bona fide dead clock&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which (assuming it is analog) is exactly correct twice a day, but note&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Clement of Alexandria in Protrept. I 2, PG VIII, 76a.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Although there we see the removal of the heart, the consumption of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bile may well be associated with the gallbladder. Perhaps it is my&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ignorance, but I thought that מרה was bile. If so, you may have your&#xD;&#xA;&gt; source. The question is whether Clement referred to the consumption of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bile specifically from sacrifices, (whether the removal of the bile&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was itself a form of sacrifice, etc.)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; For an old English translation of the Greek, see here:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ante-Nicene_Christian_Library/Exhortation_to_the_Heathen#28&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So there it is!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17489" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5254" RevisionGUID="608dd10b-c7e1-4427-9761-043bb83371ec" CreationDate="2018-11-13T18:07:38.183" UserId="5547" Text="Ra represents the exoteric or outer ideal of a concept, whereas Heru, represents its esoteric /inner nature which is why he is always linked with his source/Mother/Au Set/Golden Seat!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17490" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5255" RevisionGUID="0dc3e338-46f8-4868-8980-7f6469362311" CreationDate="2018-11-13T22:34:10.257" UserId="3373" Text="[![By Olaf Tausch https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Dendera_Tempel_Zodiak_05.jpg][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Deckenrelief (Kopie des Tierkreises) in der Kapelle des Tierkreises&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Zodiak) auf dem Dach des Hathor-Tempels von Dendera, Ägypten, 16&#xD;&#xA;&gt; October 2014 by 	Olaf Tausch&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dear Egyptomaniacs, Egyptologists etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Stumbling upon information on a lost Egyptian astrological treatise on the decans in the zodiak, called ‘Salmeshiniaka’, I wondered whether it would be possible to reconstruct the whole decanates based on scant information that we possess. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All of a sudden I got a flash of an inspiration. Perhaps the key lays in the Egyptian Book of the Dead? After all, the passages in the Egyptian Book of the Dead are in some way related to the journeying of the souls and the dead, journeying of the Sun and Deities....&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So equipped with Budge’s Penguin edition, I browsed through the story. What I found is astounding! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Indeed the fragmentary stories from the plates correspond to the Dendera Zodiak. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Book of the Dead, or the 'book of directions' as I like to call it now, was a guide of repeating the ‘descend and ascent’ of the sun and one’s individual spirit (female little Isis, male little Osiris) throughout the Southern gates, upon which the soul-spirit returned to heavens. That would correspond with later Orphic-Eleusinian and Roman-Mithraic mysteries. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I did not research it well YET, but I believe all correspondences may be extracted by future adventurers in Egyptology, for now I leave this small hint behind, as I plan to work on an academic paper related to this, please let me know what do you think?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm leaving the correspondences which I found already written on a yellow paper below: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/2cLLd.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/YGbPh.jpg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Drawing: Mateusz Zalewski-G. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17491" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5255" RevisionGUID="0dc3e338-46f8-4868-8980-7f6469362311" CreationDate="2018-11-13T22:34:10.257" UserId="3373" Text="Could it be the the Dendera Zodiak is a Glyphed description of the Egyptian Book of the Dead?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17492" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5255" RevisionGUID="0dc3e338-46f8-4868-8980-7f6469362311" CreationDate="2018-11-13T22:34:10.257" UserId="3373" Text="|egyptian|demi-gods|astrology|zodiac|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17493" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5149" RevisionGUID="a8a12c14-caa2-460d-a0ab-9200047e67a4" CreationDate="2018-11-14T08:01:45.310" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="17494" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5256" RevisionGUID="0a1c1976-2e47-40a7-83a5-7fbc90cef0f1" CreationDate="2018-11-14T14:21:22.630" UserId="5549" Text="**Ok full backstory:** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a post on [World Building SE][1] I asserted based on my understanding of classical troll mythology that loin clothes could be collected from dead trolls as uniquely identifiable trophies much like say scalps or heads. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**I understand that there are discrepancies between classical presentations of trolls, what I am asking is if a majority of (pre 3D games) presentations can support my assertion?** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The observations that led me to this conclusion were:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Many troll depictions do show them wearing loin cloth like garments.&#xD;&#xA;- Many depictions of troll homes depict them as primitive and sparse, no changes of clothes anywhere which allows the possibility they never change. &#xD;&#xA;- Few depictions with respect to the total indicate tribal structures (communal camps, division of labor). In my opinion they seem to be somewhat solitary and occasionally come together in small groups for raids and social activities. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I feel this may lead to some argument over logic so I feel I should note that this is a mythology SE and logic of myths is irrelevant. I am asking if the stated troll mythology is inline with my underlying knowledge.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/a/130165/41670" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17495" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5256" RevisionGUID="0a1c1976-2e47-40a7-83a5-7fbc90cef0f1" CreationDate="2018-11-14T14:21:22.630" UserId="5549" Text="Could loin cloths be considered as a 1:1 unique item for trolls?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17496" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5256" RevisionGUID="0a1c1976-2e47-40a7-83a5-7fbc90cef0f1" CreationDate="2018-11-14T14:21:22.630" UserId="5549" Text="|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17497" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5257" RevisionGUID="9008e017-112e-4656-8be1-5a6eeb99c593" CreationDate="2018-11-14T16:58:54.360" UserId="4022" Text="The _akhlut_ is a creature from Inuit myth, a monstrous wolf that can take the shape of an orca. However, I haven't been able to find this word in any reliable Inuktitut dictionaries (looking for _akhlut_, _akłut_, or _ak&amp;ut_—since _ł_ is hard to type on American keyboards, it's often written _hl_, _lh_, or _&amp;_).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where does this creature's name come from?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17498" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5257" RevisionGUID="9008e017-112e-4656-8be1-5a6eeb99c593" CreationDate="2018-11-14T16:58:54.360" UserId="4022" Text="What is the origin of the akhlut's name?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17499" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5257" RevisionGUID="9008e017-112e-4656-8be1-5a6eeb99c593" CreationDate="2018-11-14T16:58:54.360" UserId="4022" Text="|mythical-creatures|origins|names|inuit|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17500" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5258" RevisionGUID="e6b5c10a-f022-4aa6-9b01-ea30f95cf644" CreationDate="2018-11-14T21:31:18.347" UserId="5549" Text="# Many primal ~agricultural deities tended to be female. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By primal I mean more rudimentary natural life oriented concepts like plants, fertility, growing. This is in contrast to more sophisticated agricultural gods associated more with technological advancements and or harnessing of natural forces. The latter group tended to have higher populations of men.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# My Explanation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One obvious biological difference between men and women is women's ability to bare and produce life. In the absence of scientific knowledge, it would be logical to associate life bringing natural aspects with feminine traits. Because it takes two copulate, is why male gods are not completely removed from agricultural deities. This cannot explain exactly the gender assignments of gods across societies because social traits very respective to the region tended to influence it heavily. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# [Egyptians][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These guys are difficult but if you look at it with respect to their geography my point remains:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Anuket** - Goddess of the Nile&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Qetesh** - Goddess of **nature**, beauty, sacred ecstasy , and sexual pleasure&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Isis** - Major Goddess of healing, there's also some pretty relevant tales in their too. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Tefnut** - was the ancient Egyptian goddess of water **and** fertility. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Here is where my point may seem to break down at face value:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Geb** - Prominent God of Earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First thing to note is the Egyptians were a desert civilization where the majority of known land is dead, **lifeless**. Geb is also commonly associated with Earthquakes. This suggests that Geb is associated with a more crudely fundamental aspect of Earth like &quot;all land&quot;. Since &quot;all land&quot; from their perspective is mostly dead its no wonder ,with respect to my point, that he is a man. Notice how the majority of &quot;life oriented&quot; aspects are represented by female goddesses. Notice how a lot of water oriented aspects also tended to represented by female gods. In a desert civilization water would be the obvious life bringing force and since it takes two it again is no wonder the earth is a man. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now some wiki **may claim** that Geb is the god of vegetation, I think this is a misconception. Geb is portrayed in many ways. Some depictions of Geb color him green representing vegetation. Some depictions of Geb color him deep brown like fertile soil. Some depictions of Geb depict him sprouting flowers. It would be easy to assume he is a god of vegetation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you consider the many life bringing goddesses, if you think about Geb's depictions temporally, and you consider the possibility that Geb simply represents 'all land'; **Geb isn't god of vegetation, vegetation is growing on Geb with the seasons.** Since it is the water that is bringing life you could imagine the vegetation to be like kids climbing on daddy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**As a Bonus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then there is Hapi. Who is this confused god of birds, fishes, marshes and &quot;river bringing vegetation&quot;. He is clearly semi associated with life bringing properties. He is always depicted with feminine features (breasts). In my opinion, one way to interpret his gender confusion is that it stems from the fact that he is bridging the divide between the feminine life bringing aquatic forces with the male land forces resulting in his gender confusion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Now why this is relevant to the OPs question&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When you ask about mother earth vs father earth, in what way do you mean mother earth? Most commonly mother earth is synonymous with mother nature again binding female reproduction with life oriented aspects. For instance to say &quot;Mother Earth is dead&quot; isnt to say the Earth no longer exists only that all life on it has ceased. Following the common meaning of mother earth then mother earth for the Egyptians would be someone like Anuket, Quetesh, or most likely Tefnut and not Geb. &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Egyptian_gods_and_goddesses" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17501" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5259" RevisionGUID="80fe4515-96f6-4cc1-9ff2-fbbb2d86b2bb" CreationDate="2018-11-15T00:29:17.317" UserId="1317" Text="&lt;h2&gt;He showed up&lt;/h2&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's a fallacy to treat mythology as a consistent narrative with a single continuity. Lots of stories interact and combine, and the fragments that have survived become what we call &quot;mythology&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We can get a better handle on this by tracing the references in the Wikipedia article to ancient sources. In some sources, it seems that Leucophrys was deserted before Tenes arrived. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his telling of the story, Pausanias doesn't mention Tenes being made king:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Rejected by him &amp;#91;Philonome&amp;#93; falsely accused him before her husband, saying that he had made love to her, and she had rejected him. Cycnus was deceived by the trick, placed Tennes with his sister in a chest and launched it out to sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The young people came safely to the island Leucophrys, and the island was given its present name from Tennes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Pausanias, _Description of Greece_, [10.14.2-3](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0160:book=10:chapter=14), Tr.  W.H.S. Jones and H.A. Ormerod, 1918&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pseudo-Appolodorus also fails to mention that there were other inhabitants on the island:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cycnus believed her, and putting him and his sister in a chest he set them adrift on the sea. The chest was washed up on the island of Leucophrys, and Tenes landed and settled in the island, and called it Tenedos after himself. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Pseudo-Appolodorus, _Epitome_, [3.25](http://www.theoi.com/Text/ApollodorusE.html), Tr. J. G. Fraser, Theoi Project, Online Classics Library&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We don't see the mention of Tenes being made a kimg umtil the 1st Century BCE historian Diodorus Siculus. But he tells more than one story:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Tennes was a son of Cycnus, who had been king of Colonê in the Troad, and was a man who had gained renown because of his high achievements. Gathering together colonists and using as his base the mainland opposite to it, he seized **an uninhabited island** called Leucophrys; this island he portioned out in allotments among his followers, and he founded a city on it which he named Tenedos after himself. ....&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But we must not omit to mention what the myths of the Tenedians have to tell about Tennes, the founder of the city. Cycnus his father, they say, giving credence to the unjust slanders of his wife, put his son Tennes in a chest and cast it into the sea; this chest was borne along by the waves and brought to shore on Tenedos, and **since Tennes had been saved alive in this astonishing fashion by the providence of some one of the gods**, he became king of the island...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Diodorus Siculus, _The Library of History_, [Book V, 83](http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Diodorus_Siculus/5D*.html#83.4), Tr. C. H. Oldfather&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here Diodorus is saying that Tenedos came from a colonizing expedition to Laucophrys, and the colonists were already led by Tenes. But he allows for the local legend which says the people of Leucophrys making Tenes the king solely due to his remarkable survival floating in the chest, a sign of the gods' favor." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17502" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5260" RevisionGUID="cc885e10-8c5c-4216-9315-c66e26492ed1" CreationDate="2018-11-15T01:01:26.713" UserId="3341" Text="https://www.greekmythology.com/Other_Gods/Minor_Gods/Adonis/adonis.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...However, Persephone later refused to give Adonis back to Aphrodite;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this led to a **dispute that was solved by Zeus. As a result, Adonis&#xD;&#xA;&gt; would spend a third of a year with each goddess, and one third with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whoever he wanted; he chose to spend two thirds with Aphrodite.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Adonis died when he was attacked by a wild boar that was sent by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Artemis, who was jealous of his hunting skills. A different version of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the myth has it that the boar was sent by Ares, as he was the lover of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aphrodite. When he died, Aphrodite poured nectar over his blood, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the flower anemone emerged.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus decreed the *living* Adonis could visit Persephone and leave the Underworld. I wasn't aware of any account where Adonis left the Underworld *after* he died (presuming he went to the Underworld when he died?).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, found this on Quora:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; https://www.quora.com/How-did-Adonis-become-a-Greek-god&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Q: How did Adonis become a Greek god?&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; A: Note: If you already know the myth, you can skip to the bottom for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the &quot;easy answer&quot;, which is in bold.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Here's the way I understand it:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; It all started when Adonis's mother, Myrrha, was turned into a Myrrh&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tree by Aphrodite, the goddess of love. Adonis, already conceived in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his mother's womb, was born from the tree after the incident.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aphrodite, perhaps feeling guilty, sent the poor kid to live with her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; friend Persephone, goddess of seasons.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Persephone lived with her husband, Hades, lord of the dead, so Adonis&#xD;&#xA;&gt; grew up surrounded by the spirits of deceased mortals rather than an&#xD;&#xA;&gt; actual living family. He eventually grew up to be a fit young man,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; despite his unusual childhood. Both Aphrodite and Persephone fell in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; love with him, and eventually their dispute was brought before Zeus,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; king of the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; It was Zeus's decision that Adonis would spend one third of the year&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with Aphrodite, one third of the year with Persephone, and one third&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the year doing whatever he wanted.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aphrodite, being a love goddess, was able to convince Adonis to spend&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his free time during the year with her as well. This whole scandal led&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to a lot of tension with a lot of gods, namely:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Artemis: As a sworn virgin, Artemis was disgusted by Aphrodite and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Persephone's little spat.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ares: As Aphrodite's only consistent sweetheart, Ares, was of course,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; jealous of Adonis.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollo: Aphrodite blinded his son, Erymanthus, when he came upon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aphrodite making love to Adonis in the forest.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to which version of the story you're going by, one of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gods sent a boar in order to kill Adonis.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The boar succeeded, and Aphrodite came too late to be of any help.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Where Adonis died, the Anemone flower sprang up, becoming his eternal&#xD;&#xA;&gt; symbol.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; So, according to Greek mythology, Adonis is not a god.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Later poets, writers, and some cults, however, mistranslated portions&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the text, perhaps believing that every time he went down to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Underworld to be with Aphrodite, he was actually dying, only to be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;reborn&quot; four months later.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to these cults, Adonis was, as usual, reborn after having&#xD;&#xA;&gt; been killed by the boar, and continued to live on for eternity, as a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; god of fertility and desire.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; So, to answer this question:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **1.	Technically, going by the original Greek myth, Adonis was just a mortal and died.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2.	According to later poets, writers, and cults, however, Adonis was at some point made immortal, and became the god of rebirth, fertility,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and desire.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the end, I think it's a matter of choice, depending on whether or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not you think a myth is defined by the original story, or changes as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; different versions of it pop up.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Your decision.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17503" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5259" RevisionGUID="1b4d233c-2696-4eea-8b3f-e4a44d7f8f60" CreationDate="2018-11-15T03:15:10.270" UserId="1317" Comment="added 5 characters in body" Text="&lt;h2&gt;He showed up&lt;/h2&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's a fallacy to treat mythology as a consistent narrative with a single continuity. Lots of stories interact and combine, and the fragments that have survived become what we call &quot;mythology&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We can get a better handle on this by tracing the references in the Wikipedia article to ancient sources. In some sources, it seems that Leucophrys was deserted before Tenes arrived. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his telling of the story, Pausanias doesn't mention Tenes being made king:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Rejected by him &amp;#91;Philonome&amp;#93; falsely accused him before her husband, saying that he had made love to her, and she had rejected him. Cycnus was deceived by the trick, placed Tennes with his sister in a chest and launched it out to sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The young people came safely to the island Leucophrys, and the island was given its present name from Tennes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Pausanias, _Description of Greece_, [10.14.2-3](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0160:book=10:chapter=14), Tr.  W.H.S. Jones and H.A. Ormerod, 1918&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pseudo-Appolodorus also fails to mention that there were other inhabitants on the island:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cycnus believed her, and putting him and his sister in a chest he set them adrift on the sea. The chest was washed up on the island of Leucophrys, and Tenes landed and settled in the island, and called it Tenedos after himself. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Pseudo-Appolodorus, _Epitome_, [3.25](http://www.theoi.com/Text/ApollodorusE.html), Tr. J. G. Fraser, Theoi Project, Online Classics Library&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We don't see the mention of Tenes being made a kimg umtil the 1st Century BCE historian Diodorus Siculus. But he tells more than one story:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Tennes was a son of Cycnus, who had been king of Colonê in the Troad, and was a man who had gained renown because of his high achievements. Gathering together colonists and using as his base the mainland opposite to it, he seized **an uninhabited island** called Leucophrys; this island he portioned out in allotments among his followers, and he founded a city on it which he named Tenedos after himself. ....&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But we must not omit to mention what the myths of the Tenedians have to tell about Tennes, the founder of the city. Cycnus his father, they say, giving credence to the unjust slanders of his wife, put his son Tennes in a chest and cast it into the sea; this chest was borne along by the waves and brought to shore on Tenedos, and **since Tennes had been saved alive in this astonishing fashion by the providence of some one of the gods**, he became king of the island...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Diodorus Siculus, _The Library of History_, [Book V, 83](http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Diodorus_Siculus/5D*.html#83.4), Tr. C. H. Oldfather&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here Diodorus is saying that Tenedos came from a colonizing expedition to Laucophrys, and the colonists were already led by Tenes. But he allows for the local legend which says the people of Leucophrys making Tenes the king was  solely due to his remarkable survival floating in the chest, a sign of the gods' favor." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17504" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5259" RevisionGUID="3f013c93-e601-4e12-96e4-1602190bdbd6" CreationDate="2018-11-15T06:27:21.290" UserId="1317" Comment="Typos" Text="&lt;h2&gt;He showed up&lt;/h2&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's a fallacy to treat mythology as a consistent narrative with a single continuity. Lots of stories interact and combine, and the fragments that have survived become what we call &quot;mythology&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We can get a better handle on this by tracing the references in the Wikipedia article to ancient sources. In some sources, it seems that Leucophrys was deserted before Tenes arrived. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his telling of the story, Pausanias doesn't mention Tenes being made king:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Rejected by him &amp;#91;Philonome&amp;#93; falsely accused him before her husband, saying that he had made love to her, and she had rejected him. Cycnus was deceived by the trick, placed Tennes with his sister in a chest and launched it out to sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The young people came safely to the island Leucophrys, and the island was given its present name from Tennes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Pausanias, _Description of Greece_, [10.14.2-3](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0160:book=10:chapter=14), Tr.  W.H.S. Jones and H.A. Ormerod, 1918&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pseudo-Appolodorus also fails to mention that there were other inhabitants on the island:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cycnus believed her, and putting him and his sister in a chest he set them adrift on the sea. The chest was washed up on the island of Leucophrys, and Tenes landed and settled in the island, and called it Tenedos after himself. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Pseudo-Appolodorus, _Epitome_, [3.25](http://www.theoi.com/Text/ApollodorusE.html), Tr. J. G. Fraser, Theoi Project, Online Classics Library&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We don't see the mention of Tenes being made a kimg until the 1st Century BCE historian Diodorus Siculus. But he tells more than one story:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Tennes was a son of Cycnus, who had been king of Colonê in the Troad, and was a man who had gained renown because of his high achievements. Gathering together colonists and using as his base the mainland opposite to it, he seized **an uninhabited island** called Leucophrys; this island he portioned out in allotments among his followers, and he founded a city on it which he named Tenedos after himself. ....&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But we must not omit to mention what the myths of the Tenedians have to tell about Tennes, the founder of the city. Cycnus his father, they say, giving credence to the unjust slanders of his wife, put his son Tennes in a chest and cast it into the sea; this chest was borne along by the waves and brought to shore on Tenedos, and **since Tennes had been saved alive in this astonishing fashion by the providence of some one of the gods**, he became king of the island...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Diodorus Siculus, _The Library of History_, [Book V, 83](http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Diodorus_Siculus/5D*.html#83.4), Tr. C. H. Oldfather&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here Diodorus is saying that Tenedos came from a colonizing expedition to Laucophrys, and the colonists were already led by Tenes. But he allows for the local legend which says the people of Leucophrys making Tenes the king was  solely due to his remarkable survival floating in the chest, a sign of the gods' favor." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17505" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5261" RevisionGUID="8a4ee4de-c5a8-4da8-9adc-198a732dfb4d" CreationDate="2018-11-15T08:43:55.600" UserId="5551" Text="The most probable antroposophical reason for a shift from the earth god to the sky god is that the earth god provided humans with the produce of nature up until the invention and rise of agriculture. The earth was under the influence of the elements and the sky became more important in agriculture for timing and time keeping in relation to sowing, harvesting and threshing the grains. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17506" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5262" RevisionGUID="a49c518d-e0ed-4db4-b626-1eac68bd0057" CreationDate="2018-11-15T10:02:48.503" UserId="5552" Text="I've tried googling this and I've found basically nothing. The first result says it's blue, but I was highly suspicious of it, and haven't found anything else to confirm it. I'm skeptical of any direct answers, because I haven't found much already, and I've heard that color was very different in the greek language. [Here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_dark_sea_(Homer)) is an example of that" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17507" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5262" RevisionGUID="a49c518d-e0ed-4db4-b626-1eac68bd0057" CreationDate="2018-11-15T10:02:48.503" UserId="5552" Text="What color is ichor in greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17508" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5262" RevisionGUID="a49c518d-e0ed-4db4-b626-1eac68bd0057" CreationDate="2018-11-15T10:02:48.503" UserId="5552" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17509" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5263" RevisionGUID="d947ae7d-4290-4e29-929e-1cee2df93762" CreationDate="2018-11-15T17:03:19.040" UserId="5511" Text="Liddel's Greek Lexicon does not specify a color, but notes the oldest occurence as in the Illiad II.535:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=i)xw/r&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ἔνθ᾽ ἐπορεξάμενος μεγαθύμου Τυδέος υἱὸς ἄκρην οὔτασε χεῖρα μετάλμενος&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ὀξέϊ δουρὶ ἀβληχρήν: εἶθαρ δὲ δόρυ χροὸς ἀντετόρησεν ἀμβροσίου διὰ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; πέπλου, ὅν οἱ Χάριτες κάμον αὐταί, πρυμνὸν ὕπερ θέναρος: ῥέε δ᾽&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ἄμβροτον αἷμα θεοῖο&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **ἰχώρ**, οἷός πέρ τε ῥέει μακάρεσσι θεοῖσιν: οὐ γὰρ σῖτον ἔδουσ᾽, οὐ πίνουσ᾽ αἴθοπα  οἶνον, τοὔνεκ᾽ ἀναίμονές εἰσι καὶ ἀθάνατοι καλέονται.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he flew at her and thrust his spear into the flesh of her delicate&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hand. The point tore through the ambrosial robe which the Graces&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [kharites] had woven for her, and pierced the skin between her wrist&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and the palm of her hand, so that the immortal blood, or **ichor**,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that flows in the veins of the blessed gods, came pouring from the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wound; for the gods do not eat bread nor drink wine, hence they have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; no blood such as ours, and are immortal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, in later periods the word was also used for regular blood.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Plato assigns some colors to ichor in Tim. 82e-83c, but the use of the word is biological rather than mythical:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [82e] καὶ κατὰ ταῦτα μὲν γιγνομένων ἑκάστων ὑγίεια συμβαίνει τὰ πολλά·&#xD;&#xA;&gt; νόσοι δέ͵ ὅταν ἐναντίως. ὅταν γὰρ τηκομένη σὰρξ ἀνάπαλιν εἰς τὰς&#xD;&#xA;&gt; φλέβας τὴν τηκεδόνα ἐξιῇ͵ τότε μετὰ πνεύματος αἷμα πολύ τε καὶ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; παντοδαπὸν ἐν ταῖς φλεψὶ χρώμασι καὶ πικρότησι ποικιλλόμενον͵ ἔτι δὲ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ὀξείαις καὶ ἁλμυραῖς δυνάμεσι͵ χολὰς καὶ **ἰχῶρας** καὶ φλέγματα παντοῖα&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ἴσχει· παλιναίρετα γὰρ πάντα γεγονότα καὶ διεφθαρμένα τό τε αἷμα αὐτὸ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; πρῶτον διόλλυσι͵ [83a] καὶ αὐτὰ οὐδεμίαν τροφὴν ἔτι τῷ σώματι&#xD;&#xA;&gt; παρέχοντα φέρεται πάντῃ διὰ τῶν φλεβῶν͵ τάξιν τῶν κατὰ φύσιν οὐκέτ΄&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ἴσχοντα περιόδων͵ ἐχθρὰ μὲν αὐτὰ αὑτοῖς διὰ τὸ μηδεμίαν ἀπόλαυσιν&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ἑαυτῶν ἔχειν͵ τῷ συνεστῶτι δὲ τοῦ σώματος καὶ μένοντι κατὰ χώραν&#xD;&#xA;&gt; πολέμια͵ διολλύντα καὶ τήκοντα. ὅσον μὲν οὖν ἂν παλαιότατον ὂν τῆς&#xD;&#xA;&gt; σαρκὸς τακῇ͵ δύσπεπτον γιγνόμενον μελαίνει μὲν ὑπὸ παλαιᾶς συγκαύσεως͵&#xD;&#xA;&gt; διὰ δὲ τὸ πάντῃ διαβεβρῶσθαι [83b] πικρὸν ὂν παντὶ χαλεπὸν προσπίπτει&#xD;&#xA;&gt; τοῦ σώματος ὅσον ἂν μήπω διεφθαρμένον ᾖ͵ καὶ τοτὲ μὲν ἀντὶ τῆς&#xD;&#xA;&gt; πικρότητος ὀξύτητα ἔσχεν τὸ μέλαν χρῶμα͵ ἀπολεπτυνθέντος μᾶλλον τοῦ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; πικροῦ͵ τοτὲ δὲ ἡ πικρότης αὖ βαφεῖσα αἵματι χρῶμα ἔσχεν ἐρυθρώτερον͵&#xD;&#xA;&gt; τοῦ δὲ μέλανος τούτῳ συγκεραννυμένου χλοῶδες· ἔτι δὲ συμμείγνυται&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ξανθὸν χρῶμα μετὰ τῆς πικρότητος͵ ὅταν νέα συντακῇ σὰρξ ὑπὸ τοῦ περὶ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; τὴν φλόγα πυρός. καὶ τὸ μὲν κοινὸν ὄνομα πᾶσιν τούτοις ἤ τινες ἰατρῶν&#xD;&#xA;&gt; που χολὴν ἐπωνόμασαν͵ [83c] ἢ καί τις ὢν δυνατὸς εἰς πολλὰ μὲν καὶ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ἀνόμοια βλέπειν͵ ὁρᾶν δὲ ἐν αὐτοῖς ἓν γένος ἐνὸν ἄξιον ἐπωνυμίας&#xD;&#xA;&gt; πᾶσιν· τὰ δ΄ ἄλλα ὅσα χολῆς εἴδη λέγεται͵ κατὰ τὴν χρόαν ἔσχεν λόγον&#xD;&#xA;&gt; αὐτῶν ἕκαστον ἴδιον. **ἰχὼρ** δέ͵ ὁ μὲν αἵματος ὀρὸς πρᾷος͵ ὁ δὲ μελαίνης&#xD;&#xA;&gt; χολῆς ὀξείας τε ἄγριος͵ ὅταν συμμειγνύηται διὰ θερμότητα ἁλμυρᾷ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; δυνάμει· καλεῖται δὲ ὀξὺ φλέγμα τὸ τοιοῦτον.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now when each process takes place in this order, health commonly&#xD;&#xA;&gt; results; when in the opposite order, disease. For when the flesh&#xD;&#xA;&gt; becomes decomposed and sends back the wasting substance into the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; veins, then an over-supply of blood of diverse kinds, mingling with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; air in the veins, ***having variegated colours*** and bitter properties, as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; well as acid and saline qualities, contains all sorts of bile and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; serum and phlegm. For all things go the wrong way, and having become&#xD;&#xA;&gt; corrupted, first they taint the blood itself, and then ceasing to give&#xD;&#xA;&gt; nourishment the body they are carried along the veins in all&#xD;&#xA;&gt; directions, no longer preserving the order of their natural courses,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; but at war with themselves, because they receive no good from one&#xD;&#xA;&gt; another, and are hostile to the abiding constitution of the body,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which they corrupt and dissolve. The oldest part of the flesh which is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; corrupted, being hard to decompose, from long burning grows black, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from being everywhere corroded becomes bitter, and is injurious to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; every part of the body which is still uncorrupted. Sometimes, when the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bitter element is refined away, ***the black part*** assumes an acidity&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which takes the place of the bitterness; at other times the bitterness&#xD;&#xA;&gt; being tinged with blood has a ***redder colour***; and this, when mixed with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; black, takes the ***hue of grass***; and again, an ***auburn colour*** mingles&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with the bitter matter when new flesh is decomposed by the fire which&#xD;&#xA;&gt; surrounds the internal flame-to all which symptoms some physician&#xD;&#xA;&gt; perhaps, or rather some philosopher, who had the power of seeing in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; many dissimilar things one nature deserving of a name, has assigned&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the common name of bile. But the other kinds of bile are variously&#xD;&#xA;&gt; distinguished by their colours. As for serum, that sort which is the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; watery part of blood is innocent, but that which is a secretion of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; black and acid bile is malignant when mingled by the power of heat&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with any salt substance, and is then called acid phlegm." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17510" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5264" RevisionGUID="92506499-fa96-43ae-bac8-9cdaba16c7f3" CreationDate="2018-11-16T02:42:28.200" UserId="5554" Text="Thor has two wolves to inform him about land events ... two crows to cover the skies, but what about the seas? Does Thor have fish servants?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17511" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5264" RevisionGUID="92506499-fa96-43ae-bac8-9cdaba16c7f3" CreationDate="2018-11-16T02:42:28.200" UserId="5554" Text="Does Thor have fish to tell him what goes on in the seas?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17512" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5264" RevisionGUID="92506499-fa96-43ae-bac8-9cdaba16c7f3" CreationDate="2018-11-16T02:42:28.200" UserId="5554" Text="|thor|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17513" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5265" RevisionGUID="6e4930ab-dae3-4fea-a65b-d3d290608dbb" CreationDate="2018-11-16T05:41:24.303" UserId="4804" Text="Everything you know about spirit is wrong. The idea has been corrupted, banalized and embellished until it is unrecognizable. But the evidence remains that tells us it was important and worthy of retelling.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Christians got it right when they called it “the holy spirit”, because the spirit is a hole. More accurately a torus, a ring, a halo, as it is correctly depicted above original icons. Incidentally the halo was not a Christian tradition, is was syncretized from Gnostic sources after it found popularity among artists.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What the Christian artists got wrong was that the torus resided around the neck, not above the head. An example is the legend of Jesus, where the spirit is likened to a white dove, I think, that descended on his shoulder. There are many legends of this neck-torus in various cultures. In Judaism it is called “the yoke of heaven”, referring to the ring around the neck of a beast of burden. In Norse mythology it was called Brisingamen, the necklace their goddess wore. Among European cultures it was generically called a ‘torc’, a solid ring around the neck. The ancient Egyptians represented it as the Ankh. This is supported by the Arabic word for ‘neck’, which is ‘anak’. The Anakim were mentioned in the bible but the word was wrongly interpreted to mean ‘giants’, but in Hebrew the same word ענק also means ‘neck, just like the English word. Strongs #6062 ‘Anakim’ actually gets close, he said meant “long-necked”. The prophet Isaiah 48:4l calls it “sinew of iron on your neck”. Other Semitic cultures depicted the halo as the crescent moon above their deity, or as the horns of the crescent moon, or as animal horns.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even the word is wrong, but only because the p/f sound is phonetically interchangeable. The word ‘spirit’ is an anglicization. The word originally was ‘sefar’ ספר, the closest English idea is ‘sapphire’, as described in Exodus 24:10. But because nobody remembered what “the sefar” was, they said it was a scroll, which is only partly true. The sefar appears later in Jewish mysticism as the Kabbalistic ‘Sefirot’, a mystical ‘sphere’ of biological energy. So as you can see, the sfr/spr word took may forms and permutations. So that spirit and sefirot are the same words, amazingly enough!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sefar must have obsessed the ancients trying to possess it. A ‘safari’ was a quest to find the sefar, but the reason has long been forgotten. There are numerous historical words that come from sefar/sapphire. Spar is a mineral crystal. A collection of disparate words like sphere, spore, super, spire, spark, saffron and zephyr all come from the Hebrew ‘sefar’, because nobody could remember exactly what it was.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what is spirit, really? The physics of “Toroidal vortices” is pretty interesting. I understand spirit as a supernatural energy torus that oscillates around a human's neck. In physics it may be called a “quantum-mechanical knot”, a “soliton torus”, or as the mathematical entity “Hopf fibration”. These energetic formations are theorized to exist but there is no way to verify it. In modern times we are fortunate to have a scientific explanation for spirit that has vexed humans for so long." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17514" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5264" RevisionGUID="60dff3e5-60ed-47d8-baef-99979e168104" CreationDate="2018-11-16T14:52:52.547" UserId="5554" Comment="edited body; edited title" Text="Odin has two wolves to inform him about land events ... two crows to cover the skies, but what about the seas? Does Thor have fish servants?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17515" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5264" RevisionGUID="60dff3e5-60ed-47d8-baef-99979e168104" CreationDate="2018-11-16T14:52:52.547" UserId="5554" Comment="edited body; edited title" Text="Does Odin have fish to tell him what goes on in the seas?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17516" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5264" RevisionGUID="60dff3e5-60ed-47d8-baef-99979e168104" CreationDate="2018-11-16T14:52:52.547" UserId="5554" Comment="edited body; edited title" Text="|odin|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17518" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5266" RevisionGUID="468a88ad-acf7-4301-a645-a4c8eaadc276" CreationDate="2018-11-17T04:22:03.657" UserId="3293" Text="I have been reading the inuit and chukchee mythology on sacred texts. &#xA;&#xA;http://www.sacred-texts.com/nam/inu/index.htm&#xA;&#xA;There are many word here that appear to be transliteration rather than tramslations. Is there an Inuit/chulchee language dictionary/or even research available for me to consult to get a better idea of what they mean according to the english language during to late 19/20 century ideals? (Or even todays?)&#xA;&#xA;I have copied and pasted these words into a search and all i get is the text i am currently reading or nothing, but not a translation of what it may mean in english" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17519" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5266" RevisionGUID="468a88ad-acf7-4301-a645-a4c8eaadc276" CreationDate="2018-11-17T04:22:03.657" UserId="3293" Text="Inuit language. meanings of certain wprds" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17520" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5266" RevisionGUID="468a88ad-acf7-4301-a645-a4c8eaadc276" CreationDate="2018-11-17T04:22:03.657" UserId="3293" Text="|translation|inuit|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17521" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5267" RevisionGUID="8098cbe9-a316-4695-b748-9f670b76b830" CreationDate="2018-11-17T10:35:48.693" UserId="2774" Text="You have this dictionary: https://library.alaska.gov/hist/hist_docs/docs/anlm/200078.pdf&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would like to notice the problem when reading such old books made by pioneers is that the lack of any norms makes it difficult to follow them. The way they were writing names, and the fact that due to the time they were writing a creature could be named X by tribe 1, and Z by tribe 2.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Hence it is good to have a dictionary of that time. The one building those faced those exact problems." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17522" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5266" RevisionGUID="8da9c8d6-38f7-48aa-b8ee-ce51a72ac349" CreationDate="2018-11-17T10:37:20.477" UserId="2774" Comment="Some spelling correction" Text="I have been reading the Inuit and Chukchee mythology on sacred texts. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://www.sacred-texts.com/nam/inu/index.htm&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many words here that appear to be transliteration rather than translations. Is there an Inuit/Chukchee language dictionary/or even research available for me to consult to get a better idea of what they mean according to the English language during to late 19/20 century ideas? (Or even today?)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have copied and pasted these words into a search and all I get is the text I am currently reading or nothing, but not a translation of what it may mean in English." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17523" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5266" RevisionGUID="8da9c8d6-38f7-48aa-b8ee-ce51a72ac349" CreationDate="2018-11-17T10:37:20.477" UserId="2774" Comment="Some spelling correction" Text="Inuit language. meanings of certain words" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17524" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5264" RevisionGUID="706a9eb3-e69a-471e-9e8b-0add13d9d92e" CreationDate="2018-11-17T12:02:22.573" UserId="1317" Comment="Consistently naming the correct god" Text="Odin has two wolves to inform him about land events ... two crows to cover the skies, but what about the seas? Does Odin have fish servants?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17525" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5264" RevisionGUID="706a9eb3-e69a-471e-9e8b-0add13d9d92e" CreationDate="2018-11-17T12:02:22.573" Comment="Proposed by 1317 approved by 2682, 201 edit id of 1685" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17526" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5268" RevisionGUID="1cc55551-9a5f-4cee-a166-751e5c06266f" CreationDate="2018-11-17T12:58:07.330" UserId="5558" Text="One fairly obvious mythological inspiration is that of Sigurd/Siegfried from the Völsunga Saga inspiring the Dovahkiin/Dragon born. Both are legendary dragonslayers, who once the dragon has been slain consume it's heart/soul and gain an ability to understand a magical language." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17527" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5269" RevisionGUID="32f64ce1-6314-4a60-8455-134400ca9e3e" CreationDate="2018-11-17T16:15:47.857" UserId="3341" Text="Found two Yupik dictionaries but neither had 'akhlut'. Then found the article below:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; http://offbeat.wikia.com/wiki/Akhlut&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Akhlut**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Other Names** Kăk-whăn'-û-ghăt Kǐg-û-lu'-nǐk&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Origin** Yupik&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Location** Ice floes around the Bering Sea&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Disposition** Malevolent&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Akhlut are shapeshifting spirits from Yupik myth. They appear as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; either orcas or as wolves, and live among ice floes around the Bering&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Strait. They are often depicted as a hybrid between an orca and a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wolf.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Appearance**   In the original folklore, akhlut were gigantic orcas who could shapeshift into equally massive wolves to hunt on land.[1]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In traditional art they are usually depicted in mid transformation,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with the features of both wolves and whales.[2] Most modern&#xD;&#xA;&gt; interpretations portray them as creatures that are perpetually half&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wolf, half orca rather than shapeshifters. They are generally&#xD;&#xA;&gt; amphibious. An occasional variant of the creature appears as a beluga&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whale, and can transform into a reindeer to traverse on land. It is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; unclear whether this variation is carnivorous or not.[2]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Behavior**   Akhlut are known for their ferocity, and they hunt humans and animals alike. When hungry, they become wolves and run&#xD;&#xA;&gt; across the land searching for prey. Once they have eaten their fill,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they return to the water and assume their orca forms once more.[3]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Wolf tracks leading to or from the ocean are an indicator that the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; animal may be nearby.[1][2]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Anthropological information**   Nelson (The Eskimo About Bering Strait) claims that the creature is called Kăk-whăn'-û-ghăt&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kǐg-û-lu'-nǐk, and in orca form it is known as akh'-lut, and in wolf&#xD;&#xA;&gt; form as kǐg-û-lu’-nǐk.[2] These may be mistranslations or alternate&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dialects, as the central Yupik romanizations for &quot;orca&quot; and &quot;wolf&quot; are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;arrlug&quot; and &quot;kegg'luner&quot; respectively[4]. It's unclear what the word&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Kăk-whăn'-û-ghăt&quot; might mean. At any rate, it appears the name these&#xD;&#xA;&gt; creatures are most well known by is simply a corruption of the Yupik&#xD;&#xA;&gt; word for &quot;orca&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17528" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5270" RevisionGUID="730cd5b8-1134-4bb6-87a8-d56b2fef481e" CreationDate="2018-11-17T17:12:00.437" UserId="5560" Text="specifically Osage keywords for searches: &quot;The Great Snake,&quot; &quot;The Great Serpent&quot; &quot;She'-ki,&quot; We'tsa ton-ga,&quot; &quot;Old Woman&quot; or &quot;Old Woman who never dies&quot;(The great serpent is her husband.) &quot;Piasa,&quot; although a word made up by Europeans, would yield some information.&#xD;&#xA;Look for things by Francis LaFleshe, especially the Osage dictionary,&#xD;&#xA;Carol Diaz-granados, James Duncan, F. Kent Reilly, among others. Anything discussing Mississippian mound builder cosmology will be compare/contrasting to Osage. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17529" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5271" RevisionGUID="a41bad49-7e59-44ea-ae77-a403dc599988" CreationDate="2018-11-17T17:41:43.540" UserId="666" Text="No&#xD;&#xA;--&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First, note that the the only detail that we learn about the wolves, Gere and Freke, in Snorri's *Edda* is that they are being fed by Odin when he sits at his table; they are not in any way explicitly associated with information gathering. That is solely the domain of the ravens Huginn and Muninn. This is emphasized by the names: &quot;Gere&quot; and &quot;Freke&quot; means 'greedy' and 'gluttonous', &quot;Huginn&quot; and &quot;Muninn&quot; 'thought' and 'memory'.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The gods in general does not seem very interested in the seas - when Thor goes fishing for the [Midgard serpent][1], he he needs to borrow a boat from the giant [Hymir][2]. The sea is the domain of [Aegir][3], another giants that is on good terms with the Aesir and Vaenir, but does not properly belong to them, and his wife [Rán][4].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;The etymologies are from Gro Steinsland, *Fornnordisk religion*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rmungandr&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hymir&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%86gir&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A1n" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17530" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5271" RevisionGUID="b1ebc534-8848-410f-9dd9-f3ed892ad7c7" CreationDate="2018-11-17T21:23:07.680" UserId="666" Comment="added 150 characters in body" Text="No&#xD;&#xA;--&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First, note that the the only detail that we learn about the wolves, Gere and Freke, in Snorri's *Edda* is that they are being fed by Odin when he sits at his table; they are not in any way explicitly associated with information gathering. That is solely the domain of the ravens Huginn and Muninn. This is emphasized by the names: &quot;Gere&quot; and &quot;Freke&quot; means 'greedy' and 'gluttonous', &quot;Huginn&quot; and &quot;Muninn&quot; 'thought' and 'memory'.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The gods in general does not seem very interested in the seas - when Thor goes fishing for the [Midgard serpent][1], he he needs to borrow a boat from the giant [Hymir][2]. The sea is the domain of [Aegir][3], another giants that is on good terms with the Aesir and Vaenir, but does not properly belong to them, and his wife [Rán][4]. (There is Njörðr, but he had more to do with seafarers and fishermen, not the depths themselves. He is a also a rather marginal gods in the stories).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;The etymologies are from Gro Steinsland, *Fornnordisk religion*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rmungandr&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hymir&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%86gir&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A1n" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17531" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5272" RevisionGUID="8dd1f0e2-228e-4795-9551-f145e122ca27" CreationDate="2018-11-18T14:39:28.970" UserId="5564" Text="Renaissance composer Nicola Vicentino set the following text in one of his madrigals:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Musica prisca caput tenebris modo sustulit altis &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Dulcibus ut numeris priscis certantia factis&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Facta tua, Ippolite, excelsum super aethera mittat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Translation: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Ancient music has recently raised her head out of the darkness&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;So that, with antique and sweet numbers to compete with ancient deeds,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Your great deeds, Hyppolitus, she might send above the heavens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who exactly is meant by Hyppolitus? What were his great deeds and why did Vincentino decide on this subject for the madrigal. I haven't been able to find a connection between Hyppolitus and anything musical. I would also appreciate if someone could explain the meaning of the text as a whole." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17532" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5272" RevisionGUID="8dd1f0e2-228e-4795-9551-f145e122ca27" CreationDate="2018-11-18T14:39:28.970" UserId="5564" Text="What were the deeds of Hippolytus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17533" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5272" RevisionGUID="8dd1f0e2-228e-4795-9551-f145e122ca27" CreationDate="2018-11-18T14:39:28.970" UserId="5564" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17534" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5273" RevisionGUID="f5c7f0ba-5ae3-4bb6-812c-ad6ece8a89a3" CreationDate="2018-11-19T00:56:58.453" UserId="3741" Text="Note: I am aware the question was asked almost a year ago, but it still hasn't been answered, and I'd like to share what I found.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### TL;DR There is [one][9], and possibly more&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Legends of Maui by Westervelt&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first source I checked was the one [cited][1] in the [Wikipedia article][2] you used in your answer. (I think the section on the Wikipedia page is not, in all honesty, a good summary of the myth(s).)This is also the source that DavidPostill used in their comment(s). In the four myths mentioned in the chapter (Section III, which can be found in text form [here][3]) in which Māui successfully lifts up the sky, only one mentions a motivation resembling that of feeling sorry for the humans. This myth starts on the bottom of page 36:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Hervey island myth, as related by W. W. Gill, states that Ru, the father of Maui, came from Avaiki (Hawa-iki), the underworld or abode of the spirits of the dead. He found men crowded down by the sky, which was a mass of solid blue stone. He was very sorry when he saw the condition of the inhabitants of the earth, and planned to raise the sky a little. So he planted stakes of different kinds of trees. These were strong enough to hold the sky so far above the earth &quot;that men could stand erect and walk about without inconvenience.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This clearly states that Ru, Māui's father, was the one feeling sorry for the humans. The interesting part comes afterwards when Māui himself enters. It is explained that Ru was &quot;rather proud of his achievement,&quot; and was very glad for the praise he received because of it. Māui, &quot;not represented ... as possessing a great deal of love and reverence for his relatives,&quot; enters and ridicules Ru &quot;for thinking so much of his work.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;The full quote is below.&#xD;&#xA; &gt; For this helpful deed Ru received the name &quot;The supporter of the heavens.&quot; He was rather proud of his achievement and was gratified because of the praise received. So he came sometimes and looked at the stakes and the beautiful blue sky resting on them. Maui, the son, came along and ridiculed his father for thinking so much of his work. Maui is not represented, in the legends, as possessing a great deal of love and reverence for his relatives provided his affection interfered with his mischief; so it was not at all strange that he laughed at his father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The legend goes on to tell how Ru threatens to &quot;throw you [Māui] out of existence,&quot; a threat Māui dares him to follow through with. When Ru tries, Māui uses his shapeshifting abilities to get the better of his father before lifting both Ru and the sky up, and hurling &quot;them both to such a height that the sky could not come back.&quot; This entangled Ru &quot;among the stars.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### Conclusion&#xD;&#xA;Māui was not the one who was sorry for the humans, that was Ru. While one could argue that Māui shared the sentiment, and was mad that his father only lifted the sky up so high that &quot;men could stand erect and walk about without inconvenience,&quot; because that wasn't good enough for the humans. This may or may not be true, and it's hard to know whether or not it is, but the way the story is told here seems to me like Māui just didn't want his father to have such a big head about lifting the sky up such a small amount. This also ties into what we know about Māui, and it seems the most likely (at least in my opinion, that is).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Other Scattered Accounts&#xD;&#xA;In my search for a source documenting Māui as feeling sorry for man and being motivated by this to lift up the sky, I found myself in quite the rabbit hole.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### Edward W. Gifford&#xD;&#xA;An ethnographer who documented many tales from the Tonga. I was pointed to his work by [&quot;Māui: Polynesian Culture Hero. Variations of Motifs in Māui Mythological Cycle in East and West Polynesia.&quot;][4] I was only able to preview the book itself, but it retells one of Gifford's accounts, the full version of which can be found [here][5].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is said that the sky was low in olden days. The elder Maui (Maui Motua) was preparing his earth oven. When he used his poker it got jammed in the sky. Then he reversed his poker and pushed up the sky until it was very high.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is quite different from other accounts, but according to Gifford very similar to that of Philippine tales. The publication was quite brief in it's covering of Māui, and more tales than the sky-raising were told, making it hard to pick out examples. There were, however, two other mentions of lifting the sky.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first (a portion of a poem with an English translation):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lau koe ngataanga e langi e teve, / Pea tuu a Maui o teketeke /&#xD;&#xA;Aki e u kae alu e fefine faele /&#xD;&#xA;Ae langi na ka tau haele &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is said that the boundary of the sky was a teve plant, / That Maui stood and pushed up the sky / With a stick for a confined woman / So that we might under the sky walk upright&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the end, it appears this one is a dead end, as the second mention is an account from Wellington Lavaka (who, try as I might, I found nothing on) from Haakio, Vavau which only corrects which Maui it was that lifted the sky (Maui Kisikisi lifted the sky, rather than Maui Atalanga). As a side-note, Tonga Māui mythology is quite interesting, and I'm glad I was able to look into this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### Other Account(s)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This one confused me because I was unable to find a good source for the account, but it was used in two places, one a little more detailed than the other. It is very possible that there is a better source for it, as one is mentioned, but it is a book I'm unable to find the text of anywhere, and don't have the time to look into buying or borrowing a copy. If you're interested, it may be an interesting thing to look into.&#xD;&#xA;In the meantime, take this one with a grain of salt because [this][6], and [this][7] were the only sources I could find for the tale:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When Maui was a young man, the sky was so low that trees often became tangled in it, all the leaves were flattened and darkness surrounded the land. Men and women often had to crawl from one place to another because the sky was not tall enough to walk upright. Determined to change this, Maui visited a kahuna, or Hawaiian priest and healer, who tattooed him with a magic symbol on his forearm. Maui also sought out an old woman and drank from her gourd, giving him the great strength he would need to lift the sky.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; After a great struggle, Maui was able to push the sky beyond the mountains, lifting the edges over the wide expanse of the ocean, where it remains to this day. His effort gave room for all creatures, plants, trees and man to grow and walk tall among nature. When dark storm clouds gather around Haleakala, it is said that they are afraid to stay for long in case Maui chooses to hurl them so far that they can never return.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some of these claims are verifiable from other sources I'd found earlier, but others were not. The book linked was [Oceanic Mythology][8], which seems to have only been used for a description of Māui, but is worth looking into if you have the time. More importantly, however, this is another dead end.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### Māui: Polynesian Culture Hero&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I already brought [this book][4] up as what pointed me to Gifford, but it's worth bringing up again. The only library I can find this book at is the University of Bristol's library, but it seems as though it is definitely worth looking into. You can also find the book on a few online sites, but it's not exactly an easy book to find. If I get a chance to look into it more, I will gladly update this post, but for now this section will remain as more of a resource than anything.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# [The Hawaiians, an Island People][9]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is the last relevant source I was able to find, and it's probably the best one as well (fitting that after I do all this research, the last one I find is the best and most relevant). This one has an online version that I was able to view, and you can too (you do have to sign up for an archives account, but it's free, just gets in the way a bit).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The account in this book is found in Appendix B (dedicated to Hawaiian Legends), and goes as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A very long time ago, the sky almost touched the land. The trees were pressed down, so that their leaves were flat. No one could see the hills and mountains. The Sun was so close to the earth that fields were burned by its rays. People were very uncomfortable.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Maui was the son of the goddess Hina and the god Ku. He looked at the sky pressing down on the islands of Hawaii. He looked at the burned fields. He looked at the uncomfortable people. He decided to lift the sky.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The legend continues to tell how Māui did lift the sky, giving lift after lift until it rested far above the earth. If you'd like to read the full legend, you can find it on the [Internet Archive][10]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While the validity of the legends in Appendix B could be called into question, the book itself seems well researched (taking content from reputable sources such as the Bishop Museum, and being thoroughly peer-reviewed), and the legends told here line up with the legends we know to have come out of Hawaii and all of Polynesia. Another argument could be made that the motivation of Māui to lift the sky is not clear, which is true, but it seems heavily implied that he did it to help the people who were &quot;uncomfortable.&quot; It is up for interpretation, however, as the motivations were not made explicitly clear.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Conclusion: There is a Source (and possibly others -- or maybe not)&#xD;&#xA;After spending far too long trying to find a source for this, there appears to be one. Polynesian culture, as well as many others, are hard to study because a lot of it was word-to-mouth, and much wasn't written down until much later. For all we know, many more tales were told this way, and many more still may never be learned. Out of the many sources I found, only one told the story this way (except, as mentioned in that section, it is still open to interpretation), but there are so many more sources out there, including some I didn't get to look into myself. I thoroughly enjoyed myself doing this research, and I think that these were great peoples who deserve to be known more about. I won't go on a tangent, but thank you for giving me the opportunity to study something I otherwise might not have.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.$b41147;view=1up;seq=59&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%81ui_(Hawaiian_mythology)#Lifting_the_sky&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/pac/maui/maui06.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.worldcat.org/title/mui-polynesian-culture-hero-variations-of-motifs-in-muis-mythological-cycle-in-east-and-west-polynesia/oclc/1052853116&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.32106006368457;view=1up;seq=31&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://mauikayakadventures.com/maui/legends-of-maui/&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.worldoflegendsart.com/house-of-legends-collection.php?page=9&amp;keywords=MAUI_LIFTS_UP_THE_SKY_-_Hawaiian&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/965591&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://www.worldcat.org/title/hawaiians-an-island-people/oclc/1035145419&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://archive.org/details/hawaiiansislandp00prat?q=Maui%20lifted%20the%20sky" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17536" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5275" RevisionGUID="f235a554-f182-4aa1-ad58-d715b7f3b89e" CreationDate="2018-11-20T00:03:45.473" UserId="4271" Text="[Babylonian][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the begining of Babylonian mythology, their is a war between the older generation of gods and the newer generation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 	Apsu and Tiamat's descendents became an unruly crowd. Eventually Apsu, in his frustration and inability to sleep with the clamor, went to Tiamat, and he proposed to her that he slay their noisy offspring. Tiamat was furious at his suggestion to kill their clan, but after leaving her Apsu resolved to proceed with his murderous plan. When the young gods heard of his plot against them, they were silent and fearful, but soon Ea was hatching a scheme. He cast a spell on Apsu, pulled Apsu's crown from his head, and slew him. Ea then built his palace on Apsu's waters, and it was there that, with the goddess Damkina, he fathered Marduk, the four-eared, four-eyed giant who was god of the rains and storms.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The other gods, however, went to Tiamat and complained of how Ea had slain her husband. Aroused, she collected an army of dragons and monsters, and at its head she placed the god Kingu, whom she gave magical powers as well. Even Ea was at a loss how to combat such a host, until he finally called on his son Marduk. Marduk gladly agreed to take on his father's battle, on the condition that he, Marduk, would rule the gods after achieving this victory. The other gods agreed, and at a banquet they gave him his royal robes and scepter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Marduk armed himself with a bow and arrows, a club, and lightning, and he went in search of Tiamat's monstrous army. Rolling his thunder and storms in front him, he attacked, and Kingu's battle plan soon disintegrated.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why was Marduk made king before winning the war?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/CS/CSMarduk.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17537" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5275" RevisionGUID="f235a554-f182-4aa1-ad58-d715b7f3b89e" CreationDate="2018-11-20T00:03:45.473" UserId="4271" Text="Why was Marduk made ruler before his victory?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17538" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5275" RevisionGUID="f235a554-f182-4aa1-ad58-d715b7f3b89e" CreationDate="2018-11-20T00:03:45.473" UserId="4271" Text="|myth-identification|babylonian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17539" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5259" RevisionGUID="3c72c3f7-7634-448d-a4c7-ab6c74f7c041" CreationDate="2018-11-20T00:42:23.037" UserId="1317" Comment="Typo" Text="&lt;h2&gt;He showed up&lt;/h2&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's a fallacy to treat mythology as a consistent narrative with a single continuity. Lots of stories interact and combine, and the fragments that have survived become what we call &quot;mythology&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We can get a better handle on this by tracing the references in the Wikipedia article to ancient sources. In some sources, it seems that Leucophrys was deserted before Tenes arrived. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his telling of the story, Pausanias doesn't mention Tenes being made king:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Rejected by him &amp;#91;Philonome&amp;#93; falsely accused him before her husband, saying that he had made love to her, and she had rejected him. Cycnus was deceived by the trick, placed Tennes with his sister in a chest and launched it out to sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The young people came safely to the island Leucophrys, and the island was given its present name from Tennes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Pausanias, _Description of Greece_, [10.14.2-3](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0160:book=10:chapter=14), Tr.  W.H.S. Jones and H.A. Ormerod, 1918&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pseudo-Appolodorus also fails to mention that there were other inhabitants on the island:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cycnus believed her, and putting him and his sister in a chest he set them adrift on the sea. The chest was washed up on the island of Leucophrys, and Tenes landed and settled in the island, and called it Tenedos after himself. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Pseudo-Appolodorus, _Epitome_, [3.25](http://www.theoi.com/Text/ApollodorusE.html), Tr. J. G. Fraser, Theoi Project, Online Classics Library&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We don't see the mention of Tenes being made a king until the 1st Century BCE historian Diodorus Siculus. But he tells more than one story:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Tennes was a son of Cycnus, who had been king of Colonê in the Troad, and was a man who had gained renown because of his high achievements. Gathering together colonists and using as his base the mainland opposite to it, he seized **an uninhabited island** called Leucophrys; this island he portioned out in allotments among his followers, and he founded a city on it which he named Tenedos after himself. ....&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But we must not omit to mention what the myths of the Tenedians have to tell about Tennes, the founder of the city. Cycnus his father, they say, giving credence to the unjust slanders of his wife, put his son Tennes in a chest and cast it into the sea; this chest was borne along by the waves and brought to shore on Tenedos, and **since Tennes had been saved alive in this astonishing fashion by the providence of some one of the gods**, he became king of the island...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Diodorus Siculus, _The Library of History_, [Book V, 83](http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Diodorus_Siculus/5D*.html#83.4), Tr. C. H. Oldfather&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here Diodorus is saying that Tenedos came from a colonizing expedition to Laucophrys, and the colonists were already led by Tenes. But he allows for the local legend which says the people of Leucophrys making Tenes the king was  solely due to his remarkable survival floating in the chest, a sign of the gods' favor." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17541" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5276" RevisionGUID="526e5240-98ea-4eb5-9450-240f31991305" CreationDate="2018-11-20T16:00:48.157" UserId="2807" Text="Pausanias has a euhemeristic explanation about the myth in *Description of Greece*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Not far from the building in the market-place of Argos is a mound of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; earth, in which they say lies the head of the Gorgon Medusa. I omit&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the miraculous, but give the rational parts of the story about her.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; After the death of her father, Phorcus, she reigned over those living&#xD;&#xA;&gt; around Lake Tritonis, going out hunting and leading the Libyans to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; battle. On one such occasion, when she was encamped with an army over&#xD;&#xA;&gt; against the forces of Perseus, who was followed by picked troops from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Peloponnesus, she was assassinated by night. Perseus, admiring her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beauty even in death, cut off her head and carried it to show the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greeks.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; But Procles, the son of Eucrates, a Carthaginian, thought a different&#xD;&#xA;&gt; account more plausible than the preceding. It is as follows. Among the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; incredible monsters to be found in the Libyan desert are wild men and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wild women. Procles affirmed that he had seen a man from them who had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; been brought to Rome. So he guessed that a woman wandered from them,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reached Lake Tritonis, and harried the neighbours until Perseus killed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her; Athena was supposed to have helped him in this exploit, because&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the people who live around Lake Tritonis are sacred to her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Paus.&#xD;&#xA;2.21.5 and 2,21,6](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0160:book=2:chapter=21)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17542" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5277" RevisionGUID="0e44752b-49a8-4c01-9f58-2dbf9a43d2ca" CreationDate="2018-11-20T23:34:29.783" UserId="5511" Text="[Thomas Hennell](https://books.google.be/books?id=h6PfHQhLmUcC&amp;pg=PA22&amp;lpg=PA22&amp;dq=horse+brass+sun,+moon,+star,+wheel+origin&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=TYfdacUXkF&amp;sig=JBxxOH6iGL8XKY1Sz06G8pkRRIY&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwiJo7iKjuTeAhWNZlAKHTpuClc4ChDoATADegQIBBAB#v=onepage&amp;q=horse%20brass%20sun%2C%20moon%2C%20star%2C%20wheel%20origin&amp;f=false) lists two possible origins: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Judges 8:21 &amp; 8:26 (refers to camel ornaments)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;or as protection against the evil eye.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [Body Guards: Protective Amulets &amp; Charms](https://books.google.be/books?id=VdTtAAAAMAAJ):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; FOR THOUSANDS OF years the horse was the key to human mobility, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this made it a precious possession that ... The images used included&#xD;&#xA;&gt; suns, crescent moons, hearts and lotus-flowers, evoking the sun-god,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the moon- goddess and the gods of ancient Egypt. ... in its role&#xD;&#xA;&gt; representing the sun moving through the heavens, sacred hands, stars,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wheels and horns. ... The simple idea was that, if the Evil One looked&#xD;&#xA;&gt; up at the The sun-flash horse-brass that swings back and forth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [Apollo](https://books.google.be/books?id=Et5GAQAAIAAJ):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the following, therefore, some of the most common designs found in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; horse brasses are accounted for. The belief in ... Thus for centuries&#xD;&#xA;&gt; these charms and amulets were used in all countries, and took the form&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the moon or crescent, the wheel, lion, dog, serpent, &amp;c. In Turkey&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the ... Some show the face of the sun surrounded by rays, more&#xD;&#xA;&gt; commonly we find some form of radiating device. Many appear like&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Stars, roses, or merely patterns which are degenerate forms of solar&#xD;&#xA;&gt; origin." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17543" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5278" RevisionGUID="251ed443-a432-4528-9281-f7e5c7d797d1" CreationDate="2018-11-20T23:42:06.420" UserId="5511" Text="Bear hibernation was likely perceived as a form of deep sleep, and [recent studies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hibernation#Obligate_hibernation) have confirmed this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Historically there was a question of whether or not bears truly&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hibernate since they experience only a modest decline in body&#xD;&#xA;&gt; temperature (3–5 °C) compared with the much larger decreases (often 32&#xD;&#xA;&gt; °C or more) seen in other hibernators. Many researchers thought that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their deep sleep was not comparable with true, deep hibernation, but&#xD;&#xA;&gt; recent research has refuted this theory in captive black bears.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From [Bear Medicine: the Spirit of Bear](https://shamansway.net/bear-medicine/)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Bear is the keeper of the dream time, and stores the teachings of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dreams until the dreamer wakes up to them. Many tribes have called&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this space of inner-knowing the Dream Lodge, where the death of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; illusion of physical reality overlays the expansiveness of eternity.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is in the Dream Lodge that our ancestors sit in Council and advise&#xD;&#xA;&gt; us regarding alternative pathways that lead to our goals." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17544" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5279" RevisionGUID="c00cb0f5-9f53-4a90-81b7-b0016aa6c765" CreationDate="2018-11-20T23:57:39.923" UserId="5511" Text="Minos actually has some (be it vague) [historical references](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minos#Etymology). There is a name in [Minoan Linear A](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_A) that *could* refer to Minos. La Marle suggests that the name mwi-nu (Minos) is expected to mean 'ascetic' as Sanskrit muni, and fits this explanation to the legend about Minos sometimes living in caves on Crete.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is likely the Greeks took the Minoan omnipresence of the bull in architecture, and the history or legend of Minos to associate it with the Greek Pantheon &amp; created the Minotaur. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Incidentally, &quot;Labyrinth&quot; is a word of pre-Greek origin, which the Greeks associated with the palace of Knossos in Crete." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17545" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5280" RevisionGUID="2d5f2b05-3776-46c9-a445-910edf4434ef" CreationDate="2018-11-21T12:34:30.703" UserId="5431" Text="In the [The Cowherd and the Weaver Girl][1] classic of ancient China, who exactly is the Queen of Heaven?&#xA;&#xA;Is it [Doumu][2] or [The Queen Mother of the West][3] or [Wusheng Laomu][4]?&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cowherd_and_the_Weaver_Girl&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doumu&#xA;  [3]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Mother_of_the_West&#xA;  [4]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wusheng_Laomu" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17546" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5280" RevisionGUID="2d5f2b05-3776-46c9-a445-910edf4434ef" CreationDate="2018-11-21T12:34:30.703" UserId="5431" Text="Who is the Queen of Heaven in the The Cowherd and the Weaver Girl?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17547" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5280" RevisionGUID="2d5f2b05-3776-46c9-a445-910edf4434ef" CreationDate="2018-11-21T12:34:30.703" UserId="5431" Text="|chinese|goddesses|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17548" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5280" RevisionGUID="8132f185-11ca-48ad-bf61-2f30217f249e" CreationDate="2018-11-21T13:03:56.010" UserId="5431" Comment="deleted 367 characters in body; edited title" Text="Found answer. Please delete question any Moderator." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17549" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5280" RevisionGUID="8132f185-11ca-48ad-bf61-2f30217f249e" CreationDate="2018-11-21T13:03:56.010" UserId="5431" Comment="deleted 367 characters in body; edited title" Text="Please delete Moderator" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17550" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5281" RevisionGUID="46ffa7b2-7469-4a40-b289-8cd5d78b0e70" CreationDate="2018-11-21T13:26:13.113" UserId="5571" Text="I'm looking for information on Monsters from African folklore, preferably the ones that hurt, kill or eat people. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17551" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5281" RevisionGUID="46ffa7b2-7469-4a40-b289-8cd5d78b0e70" CreationDate="2018-11-21T13:26:13.113" UserId="5571" Text="what Monsters exist in African mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17552" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5281" RevisionGUID="46ffa7b2-7469-4a40-b289-8cd5d78b0e70" CreationDate="2018-11-21T13:26:13.113" UserId="5571" Text="|monsters|africa|demons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17553" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5282" RevisionGUID="ef19900b-e425-47ec-98e1-03169e9c248e" CreationDate="2018-11-21T16:01:39.160" UserId="5570" Text="I'm OP but must have cleared my cookies and have lost access to that account.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It turns out that &quot;Hyppolitus&quot; does not refer to the mythical figure but to a real person, Ippolito II d'Este! The latter does not show up in a google search for Hyppolitus which led to my confusion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found the answer to this question after tracking down the source material (in translation). See p. 218 in Ancient Music Adapted to Modern Practice (ed. Claude Palisca, Yale Uniersity Press, 1996)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Vicentino wrote:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;These three Latin verses were written in honor of my lord and patron, the Most Illustrious and Very Reverend Cardinal Ippolito II d'Este. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A footnote on the text says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The anonymous Latin encomium has three lines of seventeen, fifteen, and seventeen&#xD;&#xA;syllables: &quot;Musica prisca caput tenebris modo sustulit altis, / Dulcibus ut numeris priscis&#xD;&#xA;certantia factis, / Facta tua, Hyppolite, excelsum super aethera mittat&quot; (Ancient music of late&#xD;&#xA;has raised her head out of the darkness, / So that, with antique and sweet numbers, to compete&#xD;&#xA;with ancient deeds, /Your great deeds, Hyppolitus, she might send high above the heavens)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Insofar as the interpretation, I think the word order is a bit misleading. A clearer translation might be&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ancient music has raised her head out of the darkness / so that with sweet ancient (musical?) numbers she might send your great deeds, Ippolito / above the heavens to compete with ancient deeds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Being part of the revival of ancient greek music in the renaissance, Vicentino wants to honour his patron by immortalising his deeds in the same way that the mythic deeds of the ancient greeks were glorified, and with (he thought) the same music." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17554" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5281" RevisionGUID="790a588c-1071-4da8-bedd-6caf91baa770" CreationDate="2018-11-21T16:08:38.390" UserId="5571" Comment="added 54 characters in body" Text="I'm looking for information on Monsters from African folklore, preferably the ones that hurt, kill or eat people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm asking on here because google has very little  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17555" PostHistoryTypeId="8" PostId="5280" RevisionGUID="114dc696-3d40-451c-9a51-c84890c245cf" CreationDate="2018-11-21T16:36:28.823" UserId="57" Comment="Rollback to [2d5f2b05-3776-46c9-a445-910edf4434ef]" Text="In the [The Cowherd and the Weaver Girl][1] classic of ancient China, who exactly is the Queen of Heaven?&#xA;&#xA;Is it [Doumu][2] or [The Queen Mother of the West][3] or [Wusheng Laomu][4]?&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cowherd_and_the_Weaver_Girl&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doumu&#xA;  [3]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Mother_of_the_West&#xA;  [4]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wusheng_Laomu" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17556" PostHistoryTypeId="7" PostId="5280" RevisionGUID="114dc696-3d40-451c-9a51-c84890c245cf" CreationDate="2018-11-21T16:36:28.823" UserId="57" Comment="Rollback to [2d5f2b05-3776-46c9-a445-910edf4434ef]" Text="Who is the Queen of Heaven in the The Cowherd and the Weaver Girl?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17557" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5283" RevisionGUID="ce12b5e2-4734-49a1-ac42-8097e45590e3" CreationDate="2018-11-22T00:16:08.400" UserId="5379" Text="Yes, gods can recognise each other because through their eyes, they appear as columns of fire and cloud. Case in point is the birth of Dionysus, as Hera saw through Zeus's mortal disguise while he was in Thebes dating Semele. To all he appeared as a rich prince, but to Hera  and other Olympians/Titans (Calypso is the daughter of Atlas the Titan from your question) the mortal disguises are nothing." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17559" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5284" RevisionGUID="4231d9b4-93d4-47aa-9dcd-24d27befd331" CreationDate="2018-11-22T04:10:48.073" UserId="5431" Text="To answer my own question: the Weaver girl is the daughter of the Jade Emperor therefore his wife must be the Jade Empress, the Queen Mother of the West, even though it's not stated in the story itself. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17560" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5285" RevisionGUID="d6a5d268-ec10-493e-b62a-e5a3d7f57511" CreationDate="2018-11-22T21:47:25.823" UserId="5575" Text="Please help me identify this Greek goddess statue in the attached image. Who is this? She is wearing a hat of some kind and is holding flowers or some other plants.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/rD8PE.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17561" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5285" RevisionGUID="d6a5d268-ec10-493e-b62a-e5a3d7f57511" CreationDate="2018-11-22T21:47:25.823" UserId="5575" Text="Who is this Greek goddess?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17562" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5285" RevisionGUID="d6a5d268-ec10-493e-b62a-e5a3d7f57511" CreationDate="2018-11-22T21:47:25.823" UserId="5575" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17563" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5285" RevisionGUID="64e08f43-9c80-41c5-b34c-2aceadf06f9e" CreationDate="2018-11-22T21:55:58.860" UserId="5575" Comment="added 28 characters in body" Text="Please help me identify this Greek goddess statue in the attached image. Who is this? She is wearing a hat of some kind and is holding flowers or some other plants.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Greek goddess][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/vCLYx.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17564" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5286" RevisionGUID="3aaa64a6-4eef-4bda-a54a-1ef201b902ce" CreationDate="2018-11-23T18:37:08.910" UserId="5571" Text="Demeter cause of all the plants she was the Goddess of the harvest" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17565" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5285" RevisionGUID="f2793df3-3243-48c3-a3a5-0034391bdc38" CreationDate="2018-11-23T22:29:03.183" UserId="5575" Comment="added 86 characters in body" Text="[![Close up of what she is holding][1]][1]Please help me identify this Greek goddess statue in the attached image. Who is this? She is wearing a hat of some kind and is holding flowers or some other plants.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Greek goddess][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/5RwCP.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/vCLYx.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17571" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5290" RevisionGUID="9e5883df-80fe-45dd-8924-6fc604b5d311" CreationDate="2018-11-25T10:33:42.080" UserId="614" Text="Transcript is from [Springfield! Springfield!][1]. In the beginning of the 2017 film Wonder Woman, Diana aka Wonder Woman, is read a story by her mom, Queen Hippolyta, supposedly corresponding to Queen Hippolyta of Greek mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story begins:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Long ago, when time was new...&#xD;&#xA;...and all of history&#xD;&#xA;was still a dream...&#xD;&#xA;...the gods ruled the earth.&#xD;&#xA;Zeus king among them.&#xD;&#xA;Zeus created beings over&#xD;&#xA;which the Gods would rule.&#xD;&#xA;Beings born in his image...&#xD;&#xA;...fair and good,&#xD;&#xA;strong and passionate.&#xD;&#xA;He called his creation &quot;Man&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;And mankind was good.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question is about the next parts of the story:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. &gt; But Zeus' son.. grew&#xD;&#xA;envious of mankind...&#xD;&#xA;...and sought to corrupt&#xD;&#xA;his father's creation.&#xD;&#xA;This was Ares,&#xD;&#xA;the God of War.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. &gt; Ares poisoned men's hearts&#xD;&#xA;with jealousy and suspicion.&#xD;&#xA;He turned them against&#xD;&#xA;one another...&#xD;&#xA;...and war ravaged the Earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. &gt; So, the gods created&#xD;&#xA;us, the Amazons...&#xD;&#xA;...to influence men's&#xD;&#xA;hearts with love...&#xD;&#xA;...and restore&#xD;&#xA;peace to the Earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I cannot find anything like these on the Wiki pages for [Ares][2] or [Amazons][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does the DC mythology as described by DC Hippolyta differ from Greek mythology in these aspects?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. You may include elaborations to ultimately answer the title question instead of just the question above, but please use spoiler tags especially if, oh I don't know, Hippolyta was wrong or lying or something. I just wanna know how different the 3 aforementioned statements are from actual Greek mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. I use 'different' instead of 'wrong' or 'inaccurate' to treat DC mythology as a [definition][4] instead of a something that is supposed to mimic Greek mythology but fails to do so.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/movie_script.php?movie=wonder-woman-2017&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ares&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazons&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://matheducators.stackexchange.com/questions/13700/in-what-curricula-are-rectangles-defined-so-as-to-exclude-squares" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17572" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5290" RevisionGUID="9e5883df-80fe-45dd-8924-6fc604b5d311" CreationDate="2018-11-25T10:33:42.080" UserId="614" Text="What are some differences between Ares and the amazons in the 2017 film Wonder Woman and the actual mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17573" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5290" RevisionGUID="9e5883df-80fe-45dd-8924-6fc604b5d311" CreationDate="2018-11-25T10:33:42.080" UserId="614" Text="|greek|amazons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17574" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3212" RevisionGUID="2e2210c6-79e9-471f-95a9-d9bbbffde740" CreationDate="2018-11-25T10:34:57.147" UserId="614" Comment="'" Text="Story of a benevolent king (or queen?) who disguises himself among peasants and then reveals himself or is revealed as king and then one of the peasants with whom he interacts thanks the king for the greatest gift a king could give: the gift of himself ('the gift of yourself'), better than gold or something and then this somehow relates to Christianity (perhaps the story came after as a reference to Jesus).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any ideas please and thank you for the gift of yourself through time, effort, comments or answers? Merry Christmas, and happy holidays!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17575" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5291" RevisionGUID="029431d6-b5c9-4bd7-8825-6a1279ec9217" CreationDate="2018-11-25T22:46:55.883" UserId="2892" Text="Reminds me of a [Kore (sculpture)][1] and the plants look like they might be [poppy bulbs][2], which are associated with [the Kore (aka Persephone)][3], and her mother [Demeter][4].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kore_(sculpture)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persephone&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demeter#Agricultural_deity" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17580" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5293" RevisionGUID="c5773c8e-1229-45d4-8b67-0e5f985c0191" CreationDate="2018-11-26T22:33:15.180" UserId="5585" Text="When I heard about the myth regarding Asherah as God’s “wife”, it started to appear some questions which I’d like to ask because I could not find the answers I’m looking for. Here is a list questions:&#xA;&#xA; 1. Is Asherah a created goddess?&#xA; 2. Was Asherah always existed alongside with God?&#xA; 3. How she became God’s “wife”?&#xA; &#xA;Just in curiosity.  &#xA;&#xA;**Note:** Sorry if I have selected this tag in case you think it is wrong. I have selected this one because I could not find appropriate tags for it, and I did not know what to do and so, I have chosen this one. If you know what tags to select for this one, can you please tell me in the comment?&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17581" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5293" RevisionGUID="c5773c8e-1229-45d4-8b67-0e5f985c0191" CreationDate="2018-11-26T22:33:15.180" UserId="5585" Text="Who is Ashirah in Hebrew mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17582" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5293" RevisionGUID="c5773c8e-1229-45d4-8b67-0e5f985c0191" CreationDate="2018-11-26T22:33:15.180" UserId="5585" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17583" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5284" RevisionGUID="9cbcc352-8092-493f-a95a-dc431d9e6fc2" CreationDate="2018-11-27T02:30:58.033" UserId="5431" Comment="added 59 characters in body" Text="To answer my own question: the Weaver girl is the daughter of the [Jade Emperor][1] therefore his wife must be the Jade Empress, the Queen Mother of the West, even though it's not stated in the story itself. &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jade_Emperor" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17587" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5295" RevisionGUID="1386a0f8-46a8-4d29-88bb-cf049f9e2c60" CreationDate="2018-11-28T09:36:38.453" UserId="5594" Text="In the [Time for Chronos][1], I wrote some code that uses the chrono library to measure the time needed for an image of God of time Chronos to be displayed in ASCII art. However, I am not sure about the image.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Poseidon holds the trident, Zeus the lighting and so on. Does Chronos have any distinctive &quot;item&quot; or anything on his pose that would distinguish him from the others?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://meta.stackexchange.com/a/319020/275467" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17588" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5295" RevisionGUID="1386a0f8-46a8-4d29-88bb-cf049f9e2c60" CreationDate="2018-11-28T09:36:38.453" UserId="5594" Text="Image of Chronos" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17589" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5295" RevisionGUID="1386a0f8-46a8-4d29-88bb-cf049f9e2c60" CreationDate="2018-11-28T09:36:38.453" UserId="5594" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17590" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5295" RevisionGUID="569afb87-acce-4ef9-82a1-8602555624af" CreationDate="2018-11-28T11:54:31.460" UserId="5594" Comment="edited title" Text="Image of God of Time" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17591" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5296" RevisionGUID="d06f1383-7b6d-4f70-9a07-f470dac701af" CreationDate="2018-11-28T14:51:29.090" UserId="5431" Text="According to Korean myth, [King Suro of Geumgwan Gaya][1] was one of six eggs that descended from heaven.&#xA;&#xA;Does he have any parentage other then that? Any details about who laid the eggs? Or any other accounts of parentage?&#xA;&#xA;And why on [this][2] website are his parents listed as Jeonggyeon Moju and Lee Biga? And who are they?&#xA;&#xA;Regarding the [Sansin][3] Jeonggyeon Moju I found [this][4] depiction of her which is located in Simwonsa Temple in Gayasan National Park just outside Seongju, Gyeongsangbuk-do. &#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][5]][5]&#xA;&#xA;It gives no information about her except that she is a &quot;female Mountain Spirit ... that occupies Mt. Gayasan.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;Any more information about her and Lee Biga and any account of their parenting King Suro?&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suro_of_Geumgwan_Gaya&#xA;  [2]: https://alchetron.com/Suro-of-Geumgwan-Gaya&#xA;  [3]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sansin&#xA;  [4]: http://koreantemples.com/?p=12496&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/4UjAR.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17592" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5296" RevisionGUID="d06f1383-7b6d-4f70-9a07-f470dac701af" CreationDate="2018-11-28T14:51:29.090" UserId="5431" Text="Any parentage of Korean King Suro?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17593" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5296" RevisionGUID="d06f1383-7b6d-4f70-9a07-f470dac701af" CreationDate="2018-11-28T14:51:29.090" UserId="5431" Text="|myth-identification|korean|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17594" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5297" RevisionGUID="edd7d87d-2cd1-4a8c-aa33-9ddf1bb6478a" CreationDate="2018-11-28T19:07:12.443" UserId="5093" Text="In one of the endings of Orions myth, Apollo challenges Artemis skills and tells her to shoot at Orions, who is swimming in a lake. Artemis, who can't see that it's  Orion. Shot and unknowingly kills Orion. Why did Apollo did it? From what I know about Greek mythology the twins seem to have a pretty solid relationship, so why did Apollo force his sister to kill her lover? Is this somehow related to the vow that Artemis took to never fall in love with a man?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17595" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5297" RevisionGUID="edd7d87d-2cd1-4a8c-aa33-9ddf1bb6478a" CreationDate="2018-11-28T19:07:12.443" UserId="5093" Text="Why did Apollo tricked Artemis into killing Orion?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17596" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5297" RevisionGUID="edd7d87d-2cd1-4a8c-aa33-9ddf1bb6478a" CreationDate="2018-11-28T19:07:12.443" UserId="5093" Text="|greek|apollo|artemis|maiden-goddesses|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17597" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5298" RevisionGUID="c1345d8b-b62c-4f6e-a297-3388eb74036e" CreationDate="2018-11-29T09:57:23.940" UserId="5594" Text="Under the post of God of Time, I was told that he usually holds a [Zodiac Wheel][1] and/or a [Scythe][2] (reminds me of a modern Hades with this one).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://data:image/jpeg;base64,[encoded data, 18508 characters]&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTWypgGrCDLfJ3kLwIKBlQDdJKdmA71Q1ZzdWY7vSWpu88BUMdP2A" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17598" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5299" RevisionGUID="b0a26902-f03f-4582-a6fb-5a1ef17da5ad" CreationDate="2018-11-29T10:05:08.873" UserId="108" Text="There are two separate, somewhat incomptaible traditions regarding King Suro.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first origin story comes from a now-lost work, but is quoted in the [*Samguk Yusa* `삼국유사 (三國遺事)`]((https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samguk_yusa)) by the 13th century monk Iryeon. This states that a purple rope was spotted hanging from heaven; beneath the rope was a golden box wrapped in red cloth; and inside there were six golden &quot;eggs&quot; that are as round like the sun. Apparently, the next day these eggs &quot;turned&quot; into six boys.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 唯紫繩自天垂而著地。尋繩之下。乃見紅幅裹金合子。開而視之。有黃金卵六圓如日者。眾人悉皆驚喜。俱伸百拜。尋還。裹著抱持而歸我刀家窴榻上。其眾各散。過浹辰。翌日平明眾庶復相聚集開合。而六卵化為童子。&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no indication of human-like parentage in this origin story - he is simply descended from heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second parentage comes from the [Chosŏn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseon) era geography book *Sinjeung Donggukyeojiseungram* *신증동국여지승람 (東國輿地勝覽)*. This text names Jeonggyeon Moju the mountain goddess of Mt Gaya, located in the region of the [Gaya Confederacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaya_confederacy). Traditions has it that, while bathing in a pond, she attracted a divine voyeur: Ibiga, &quot;a heavenly god&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When she opened her eyes, Chonggyon saw the round shadow of the sun falling on the surface of the pond still like a mirror. Something sparkled momentarily. She suddenly felt ashamed. The moment she raised her head and looked up into the sky, her eyes met with the burning eyes of someone along with the sunlinght. At that instant, she cried, &quot;Ah!&quot; and felt the burning sttream of someone's vision penetrating her body. The burning light was none other than that of the sun. Although she tried to hdie her body with her hands in a hurry, it was too late. To be sure, she had already looked Ibiga straight in the face.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Pae-Gang, Hwang. *Korean Myths and Folk Legends.* Jain Publishing Company, 2006.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And that apparently was enough to get her pregnant. Jeonggyeon Moju is said to have given birth to two boys: `惱室朱日` and `惱窒靑裔`. The former is identified as an alternative name for Ijinashi, the founding king of [Daegaya, lit. Great Gaya](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daegaya); the latter is said to be King Suro.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not much else is known about the goddess. However, given her province, it is inferred that she was a kind of patron deity to the people who later made up the Gaya Confederacy. To this day, the Sanshingak shrine on the mountain performs rites every October, praying to her for national prosperity." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17599" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5296" RevisionGUID="45e2dfd0-fc01-4e94-bc86-2f4fdd932a1a" CreationDate="2018-11-29T10:05:47.630" UserId="108" Comment="added 29 characters in body; edited title" Text="According to Korean myth, [King Suro of Geumgwan Gaya][1] was one of six eggs that descended from heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does he have any parentage other then that? Any details about who laid the eggs? Or any other accounts of parentage?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And why on [this][2] website are his parents listed as Jeonggyeon Moju and Lee Biga? And who are they?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding the [Sansin][3] Jeonggyeon Moju I found [this][4] depiction of her which is located in Simwonsa Temple in Gayasan National Park just outside Seongju, Gyeongsangbuk-do. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][5]][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It gives no information about her except that she is a &quot;female Mountain Spirit ... that occupies Mt. Gayasan.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any more information about her and Lee Biga and any account of their parenting King Suro?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suro_of_Geumgwan_Gaya&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://alchetron.com/Suro-of-Geumgwan-Gaya&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sansin&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://koreantemples.com/?p=12496&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/4UjAR.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17600" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5296" RevisionGUID="45e2dfd0-fc01-4e94-bc86-2f4fdd932a1a" CreationDate="2018-11-29T10:05:47.630" UserId="108" Comment="added 29 characters in body; edited title" Text="What was the parentage of the Korean King Suro?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17604" PostHistoryTypeId="36" PostId="5301" RevisionGUID="e9a788a3-ca68-4776-aa91-0dfe6aee8771" CreationDate="2018-11-30T06:52:29.473" UserId="-1" Comment="from https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/49688/could-thor-actually-pass-his-mantle" />
  <row Id="17605" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5301" RevisionGUID="d2a7a684-817e-48c7-96ad-c8358f7c6e4b" CreationDate="2018-11-30T06:36:52.667" UserId="5600" Text="This is a question regarding the accuracy of Marvel comics' portrayal of the Norse mythological character of Thor as compares to the actual character from Norse mythology.  In the Marvel universe, the character of Thor is able to pass his abilities from one person to another via the Mjollnir; whoever can wield the Mjollnir can use the powers of Thor.  Furthermore, the name Thor is treated as a title in the Marvel universe; whoever wields the Mjollnir is named &quot;Thor&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To what degree is this portrayal accurate to the Norse mythological source?  Are there any indications in the source material that Thor could pass his abilities (via transfer of the Mjollnir or in any other way), and that if he could, is the name &quot;Thor&quot; a title that would pass to that person as the abilities are transferred?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17606" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5301" RevisionGUID="d2a7a684-817e-48c7-96ad-c8358f7c6e4b" CreationDate="2018-11-30T06:36:52.667" UserId="5600" Text="Could Thor actually pass his mantle?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17607" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5301" RevisionGUID="d2a7a684-817e-48c7-96ad-c8358f7c6e4b" CreationDate="2018-11-30T06:36:52.667" UserId="5600" Text="|untagged|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17608" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5301" RevisionGUID="2c107fdd-26ba-47e9-a3f4-e8b760cae669" CreationDate="2018-11-30T06:52:49.493" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17609" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5302" RevisionGUID="c7a2a12c-89a2-49c5-83b9-f2475a1afe8f" CreationDate="2018-11-30T11:26:17.140" UserId="201" Text="In Norse mythology, Thor is that person's actual name. Mjolnir is a very heavy, powerful hammer, but there is no worthiness enchantment on it. In fact, there's an entire story, the &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Erymskvi%C3%B0a&quot;&gt;Þrymskviða&lt;/a&gt;, about how the chief of the Frost Giants stole Mjolnir from under Thor's bed while he was sleeping, so &lt;a href=&quot;https://norse-mythology.org/tales/thor-the-transvestite/&quot;&gt;Thor and Loki have to go get it back&lt;/a&gt;, with Thor disguised as Freya to be the bride of Thrym.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thrym is easily able to handle Mjolnir in the myth, and Loki convinces him to give the hammer to &quot;Freya,&quot; which wouldn't be possible if there was some kind of worthiness standard involved.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, in mythology, Thor does need special iron gloves called &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A1rngreipr&quot;&gt;Járngreipr&lt;/a&gt; to handle Mjolnir, but there's nothing to indicate a test of worthiness, and I don't think there are any stories about the gloves being lost and rendering Thor hammerless — like his &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megingj%C3%B6r%C3%B0&quot;&gt;belt which doubles his strength&lt;/a&gt;, I think they are just hyperbolically cool attributes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So far as I recall, the Norse deities have names, not titles, and their powers and titles cannot be handed around. I'm pretty sure it was an invention of Marvel. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17610" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5303" RevisionGUID="7694b843-a0d7-44db-86a1-d80da98427fe" CreationDate="2018-11-30T11:39:45.773" UserId="108" Text="**No.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like most pop culture representations of anything, significant liberties have been taken in the Marvel depiction of Thor. In the original Norse mythology, There is no hint that Thor's name or powers could be transferred to another.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Firstly, the myths do not depict Thor as being powered by his hammer the way you have described. To the contrary, he is stated to be an innately powerful divine entity. For example, according to the description given of [megingjörð](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megingj%C3%B6r%C3%B0):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He has a second costly thing, best of all: the girdle of might; and when he clasps it about him, then the godlike strength within him is increased by half.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*[Gylfaginning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gylfaginning)*, XXI. Translated by Arthur Gilchrist Brodeur, 1916&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Likewise, the *edda* shows Thor to be mighty **before** his hammer was even made. In fact, the myths explains that Mjölnir was created partially *because* Thor could beat Loki into a pulp:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Loki Laufeyarson, for mischief's sake, cut off all Sif's hair. But when Thor learned of this, he seized Loki, and would have broken every bone in him, had he not sworn to get the Black Elves to make Sif hair of gold, such that it would grow like other hair.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[*Skáldskaparmál*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sk%C3%A1ldskaparm%C3%A1l), XXXV. Translated by Arthur Gilchrist Brodeur, 1916&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other words, Thor's weapons and gear enhances his divine prowess - just as a human with a sword and suit of armour would be. But they are not the source of his strength.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Secondly, Thor is firmly the deity's a personal name in the texts, not a title that to be transferred. We see this from when Mjölnir changed owners in the aftermath of [Ragnarök](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar%C3%B6k). According to the Gylfaginning, after the twilight of the gods, Thor's sons will inherit Mjölnir from their slain father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And then the sons of Thor, Módi and Magni, shall come there, and they shall have Mjöllnir there . . . thus is it said:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&gt; In the deities' shrines | shall dwell Vídarr and Váli,    &#xD;&#xA;&gt; When the Fire of Surtr is slackened;    &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Módi and Magni | shall have Mjöllnir    &#xD;&#xA;&gt; At the ceasing of Thor's strife.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; There is no hint here that either were to assume the name Thor - i.e., it's not treated as a title to be inherited or transferred." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17612" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5297" RevisionGUID="0e2b6078-63ca-4b9c-8873-c584a02e735d" CreationDate="2018-11-30T13:01:26.327" UserId="1317" Comment="Fix Grammar" Text="In one of the endings of Orion's myth, Apollo challenges Artemis's skills and tells her to shoot at Orion, who is swimming in a lake. Artemis, who can't see that it's  Orion, shoots and unknowingly kills him. Why did Apollo do that? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From what I know about Greek mythology, the twins seem to have a pretty solid relationship, so why did Apollo force his sister to kill her lover? Is this somehow related to the vow that Artemis took to never fall in love with a man?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17613" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5297" RevisionGUID="0e2b6078-63ca-4b9c-8873-c584a02e735d" CreationDate="2018-11-30T13:01:26.327" UserId="1317" Comment="Fix Grammar" Text="Why did Apollo trick Artemis into killing Orion?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17614" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5297" RevisionGUID="0e2b6078-63ca-4b9c-8873-c584a02e735d" CreationDate="2018-11-30T13:01:26.327" Comment="Proposed by 1317 approved by 108 edit id of 1686" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17617" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5304" RevisionGUID="77dfc03a-6c3e-4d3f-8d9d-da3b0b836c64" CreationDate="2018-12-01T17:00:27.690" UserId="5603" Text="I have a memory of a story in which the custodians of a large library pleaded with a conqueror to not destroy the books within, which he promised. He kept his promise, but still rendered the library useless by having all the books rewritten into alphabetical order, so there were books just full of the letter A and so on. I'd like to know the name of the library, but since I can't remember where I heard the story it's proving difficult to track down.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't even know if it's a myth (in the sense of this Stack), something from more modern literature (sounds like something Iain Banks would have come up with), or an allegory for something like the distinction of data vs information.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Having run out of places to look I thought I'd ask here, and I hope it's not inappropriate. But any pointers would be most welcome." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17618" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5304" RevisionGUID="77dfc03a-6c3e-4d3f-8d9d-da3b0b836c64" CreationDate="2018-12-01T17:00:27.690" UserId="5603" Text="Library re-ordered instead of being destroyed?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17619" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5304" RevisionGUID="77dfc03a-6c3e-4d3f-8d9d-da3b0b836c64" CreationDate="2018-12-01T17:00:27.690" UserId="5603" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17620" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5152" RevisionGUID="b264c42b-f910-4bf2-8bf7-522274982fd8" CreationDate="2018-12-01T22:02:55.673" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="17621" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5305" RevisionGUID="aa5806ff-85bb-4ee7-813a-95dad3d8838f" CreationDate="2018-12-02T11:10:43.023" UserId="5511" Text="Judaism wasn't always monotheistic. In fact, the &quot;many names of God&quot; listed in the [Tetragrammaton](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton) and other sources are clearly derived from deities worshipped in cities in and around Hebrew lands before the [diaspora](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaspora). For example, the name Baal is clearly derived from the Canaanite deity [Ba'al Haddu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadad). The &quot;many names of God&quot; in Genesis is very likely an attempt to establish a national,  central authority of these deities under one and the same, Yahweh.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Asharah is a female deity from this pre-monotheistic period, known from Akkadian and Hittite texts. During the transition period from poly- to monotheism, some biblical scholars believe that Asherah was worshipped as the consort of Yahweh. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Scholars have also found an early [link between Asherah and Eve](https://www.amazon.com/Have-Archaeology-Religion-Ancient-Israel/dp/0802828523), based upon the coincidence of their common title as &quot;the mother of all living&quot; in Genesis 3:20 through the identification with the Hurrian mother goddess [Hebat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E1%B8%AAepat). Asherah was also given the title *Chawat* from which the name *Hawwah* in Aramaic and the biblical name *Eve* are derived." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17625" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5307" RevisionGUID="b721031a-14cb-4207-a3cc-cdf01ba60e9a" CreationDate="2018-12-03T01:06:03.913" UserId="5609" Text="In various creation and flood myths the world is said to be remade from water, why would different ancient cultures have this same theme?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17626" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5307" RevisionGUID="b721031a-14cb-4207-a3cc-cdf01ba60e9a" CreationDate="2018-12-03T01:06:03.913" UserId="5609" Text="World made/remade from water" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17627" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5307" RevisionGUID="b721031a-14cb-4207-a3cc-cdf01ba60e9a" CreationDate="2018-12-03T01:06:03.913" UserId="5609" Text="|creation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17630" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="207" RevisionGUID="0a09cf12-eb8f-491d-a234-1cb001062d8c" CreationDate="2018-12-03T05:28:10.740" UserId="79" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="I'm drawing my information for this answer from my reading of the doctoral dissertation of Amira El-Zein, titled &quot;The Evolution of the Concept of the Jinn from Pre-Islam to Islam&quot;.  I have attempted to summarize *extremely briefly* a few salient bits, particularly from pages 65-98.  However, as it turns out, this topic is actually fairly complex, so giving it a read would be recommended: [The Evolution of the Concept of the Jinn from Pre-Islam to Islam.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jinn is a classification of a number of different types of supernatural being.  They may be either good or bad, and there is no clear demarcation between types of jinn as either strictly good or strictly evil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They could appear as pure spiritual beings, as stand ins for angels or demons, as indicated by Ibn Manẓūr, in &quot;Lisān al-ʿArab&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The people of the Jahiliyyah called angels-peace be upon them-jinn because they were invisible from sight&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They could also be tangible creatures, particularly with animal-like characteristics, as stated by &quot;The Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...were not pure spirits, for they were often represented as hairy and often as having the form of an ostrich or a snake.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Four specific types of Jinn are detailed as significant in the pre-islamic world:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Ghūl - Quoting Al-Jāḥiẓ &quot;Every supernatural creature that takes diverse forms&quot;.  They seem to appear in many different forms, often animalistic, and can appear and disappear &quot;like the light of a torch&quot;.  They (and generally any jinn, it appears) leave a physical corpse behind when killed, thus the poem by Ta'abbata Sharran:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I spent the night leaning on her, waiting for the morning to see what I caught.  Then I found two eyes in an ugly head, similar to the head of a cat with a forked tongue.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Si'lah - The difference between this and the former is not clear to me.  They seem to be more sneaky and clever.  A story exists of a one marrying and bearing human children.  Possible other differences may be that they are active during the day, instead of at night, or that the Se'lah is female, and the Ghūl male.  neither seems to be universally respected though.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Shiqq - A man with only half of a body, and will beat a human to death if encountered.  Again, from Al-Jāḥiẓ:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There, a shiqq appeared to him.  He had only one hand, one eye, one leg.  They recited poetry to each other, then they hit each other, and both of them fell dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Shaytān - They are noted for being smart, cunning and powerful.  And generally rebellious.  May or may not be a loan word from Hebrew, but still not necessarily evil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - ʻIfrīt, Qutrub and Mārid - Not well-known in pre-islamic time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.scribd.com/doc/32732591/The-Evolution-of-the-Concept-of-the-Jinn" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17631" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5224" RevisionGUID="038fd0c6-3dd7-47c7-b32a-8b4c42c1dd4a" CreationDate="2018-12-03T07:01:50.330" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="17633" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5297" RevisionGUID="f4e408e8-8cdb-4efd-9149-b19332aa75ec" CreationDate="2018-12-03T08:04:18.537" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="In one of the endings of Orion's myth, Apollo challenges Artemis' skills and tells her to shoot at Orion, who is swimming in a lake. Artemis, who can't see that it's Orion, shoots and unknowingly kills him. Why did Apollo do that? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From what I know about Greek mythology, the twins seem to have a pretty solid relationship, so why did Apollo force his sister to kill her lover? Is this somehow related to the vow that Artemis took to never fall in love with a man?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17634" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5308" RevisionGUID="3f21eb2c-87f2-45cf-8b10-f2947c86cb1a" CreationDate="2018-12-03T09:10:01.647" UserId="108" Text="Most writers ascribe Apollo's trickery to **jealousy.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This particular version of the Orion myth comes from the poet Istros, as preserved by Hygnius in his *De Astronomicon*. The original Latin text is as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Istrus autem dicit Oriona a Diana esse dilectum et paene factum ut ei nupsisse existimaretur; quod cum Apollo aegre ferret et saepe eam obiurgans nihil egisset, natantis Orionis longe caput solum videri conspicatus, contendit cum Diana eam non posse sagittam mittere ad id quod nigrum in mari videretur. Quae se cum vellet in eo studio maxime artificcm dici, sagitta missa, caput Orionis traiecit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's a slightly paraphrased translation by [Joseph Fontenrose](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Fontenrose), who was a classics professor at UC Berkley:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Istros' version, Artemis killed Orion with her arrows, though she had no intention of doing so - she loved him and intended to marry him. The jealous Apollo often chided her to no avail about her love for Orion. One day when she stood with her beside the sea he noticed Orion swimming far out; only his head was visible, a mere speck on the distant sea. Knowing well his sister's skill with the bow, he cunningly expressed a doubt that she could hit the distant black spot with an arrow. Artemis accepted the challenge and thus killed Orion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He then summaries:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Apollo's jealousy of Orion seems motivated by his own love for Artemis.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Fontenrose, Joseph Eddy. Orion: the Myth of the Hunter and the Huntress. University of California Press, 1981.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Make of this how you will, but one interpretation is that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Her brother, Apollo, was jealous of Artemis' love for Orion, a great hunter . . . This pictures how relationships can be destroyed in the Artemis woman through the jealousy of the spiritual animus, here signified by Apollo. It is as if the woman already has a partner within her own psyche which wants no competitors from the human realm.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Edinger, Edward F. *The Eternal Drama: The Inner Meaning of Greek Mythology.* Shambhala Publications, 2001.&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17637" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5309" RevisionGUID="0f9dd289-72dc-4b3b-99ae-da8a4501c582" CreationDate="2018-12-04T00:30:20.867" UserId="5612" Text="Since it's known that when Ragnarok occurs, all of the fallen vikings who weren't worthy of Valhalla or folkvangr are sent to helheim to eventually be led by Fenrir to destroy Odin and all of the Aesier, then why would Odin allow for more men to be equipped to his ultimate demise? Is it because he knows he will eventually die anyways from it, regardless if he hinders Fenrir or not?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17638" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5309" RevisionGUID="0f9dd289-72dc-4b3b-99ae-da8a4501c582" CreationDate="2018-12-04T00:30:20.867" UserId="5612" Text="Why would Odin and Freyja send fallen men to Helheim?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17639" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5309" RevisionGUID="0f9dd289-72dc-4b3b-99ae-da8a4501c582" CreationDate="2018-12-04T00:30:20.867" UserId="5612" Text="|odin|ragnarok|valhalla|folkvangr|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17640" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5310" RevisionGUID="f084fb7f-ba0a-471d-832f-046e4cbf9077" CreationDate="2018-12-04T07:33:17.627" UserId="666" Text="When Ragnarök is described in [Völuspá][1] (stanza 34 and on) and Snorri's Edda ([Gylfaginning][2], 55-56), there is very little said about those that are with Hel. The closest we get is that we are told that the ship Naglfar, which somehow is important for Ragnarök, is made from the nails of dead men, but there is no further specification of whom it will carry.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Furthermore, when we get a glimpse of the reborn world in Völuspá (stanza 59 and on), we see that one of the Aesir that inhabits this new land is Baldr, one of the few people we are explicitly told has gone to live in Hel. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, I see no reason to suppose that the dead in Ragnarök will join the battle, unlike the various giants and monsters we are told will be there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda/V%C3%B6lusp%C3%A1_I&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17644" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1944" RevisionGUID="88e5e998-bd8c-4b10-a1c0-5bfee23c7fdd" CreationDate="2018-12-05T17:01:40.293" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="17645" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3195" RevisionGUID="d50b0789-bee6-4f44-96b7-b5d6d8c6425a" CreationDate="2018-12-06T11:56:34.233" UserId="3315" Comment="grammar corrections" Text="In Greek mythologies, there are a lot of human-animal hybrid creatures (Satyr, Centaur or Lamia, to name a few...),  but I can't find any from Slavic mythos. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The best list I found is on [Wikipedia][1] - but AFAIK there are only full-monster (like [Plivník][2], [Kikimora][3] or [Striga][4]), or full-human (like [Mavka][5], [Rusalka][6] or vampire).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any Slavic mythical human-animal hybrid creature? Or aren't there simply any?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Slavic_legendary_creatures&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cikavac&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kikimora&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strzyga&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mavka&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusalka" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17646" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3195" RevisionGUID="d50b0789-bee6-4f44-96b7-b5d6d8c6425a" CreationDate="2018-12-06T11:56:34.233" Comment="Proposed by 3315 approved by 2807, 108 edit id of 1687" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17647" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5307" RevisionGUID="3c00d92a-59f3-4cdb-9be2-2f811ce6334f" CreationDate="2018-12-06T11:57:00.897" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="|creation|flood-myth|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17648" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5228" RevisionGUID="b7a6e47c-2b7c-438b-91bf-ce0446aa5b47" CreationDate="2018-12-07T00:02:45.507" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="17649" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5312" RevisionGUID="be69fb8f-4a48-45cc-be1c-fb06586d1ccb" CreationDate="2018-12-03T16:19:32.473" UserId="5431" Text="[Heo Hwang-ok][1] was the wife of King [Suro of Geumgwan Gaya][2] (death 199 AD).&#xA;&#xA;According to the 13th Century [Samguk Yusa (Memorabilia of the Three Kingdoms)][3] Chronicle she was a Princess of the &quot;Ayuta Kingdom&quot;, said to be a distant country. &#xA;&#xA;It is commonly (and officially) held to refer to [Ayodhya][4], India, but there are no records of this foreign voyage and marriage in Indo-Aryan history. This theory is based on 1. phonetic similarity, and 2. the twin fish symbol, but both theories don't seem to hold up.&#xA;&#xA;In ancient times the city was called [Saketa][5], not Ayodhya, but the later name did exist in Medieval times when the Chronicle was written.&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][6]][6]&#xA;&#xA;The twin fish symbol, as seen here on a gate to the tomb of King Suro, was used as the emblem of his descendants the [Gim clan of Gimhae][7].&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][8]][8]&#xA;&#xA;The Indian state of Uttar Pradesh uses twin fish symbology also, which includes the city of Ayodhya, but:&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][9]][9]&#xA;&#xA;This [Emblem of Uttar Pradesh][10] was [designed in 1916][11] by the Royal Society in the United Kingdom for the (then) United Provinces of Agra and Oudh, and the pair of Matsya fish to represent the former Muslim rulers of Oudh. &#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][12]][12]&#xA;&#xA;The [Nawab of Oudh][13] themselves had **a single fish symbol**, but they were an 18th and 19th Century power.&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][14]][14]&#xA;&#xA;So that theory seems fundamentally flawed.&#xA;&#xA;There are two other theories as to get origin. Either that she came from the [Ayutthaya Kingdom][15] of Thailand -- another theory that seems flawed because the Thai city was not founded until 1350 CE, after the composition of Samguk Yusa. &#xA;&#xA;Or, that she was Tamil, from [Ayi][16], a vassal state of the [Pandya Kingdom][17] in present-day [Tamil Nadu, India][18]. The area is today's [Kanyakumari][19].&#xA;&#xA;The ancient Tamil [Pandyan Dynasty][20] ruled from 300 BCE–1650 CE and had a [Twin Fish Flag and Emblem][21]:&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][22]][22]&#xA;[![enter image description here][23]][23]&#xA;[![enter image description here][24]][24]&#xA;&#xA;Kanyakumari is said to have been called Ayuta in ancient times, and the Tamil and Korean language and cultures [are said][25] to have commonalities.&#xA;&#xA;It seems most likely to me that the Tamil theory is the strongest.&#xA;&#xA;Was she Tamil or Indo-Aryan?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; There quite a few interesting Quora discussions on the topic: [Such as this][26].&#xA;&#xA;&gt; An interesting DNA test from the Royal Gaya tombs is talked about [in this article][27].&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heo_Hwang-ok&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suro_of_Geumgwan_Gaya&#xA;  [3]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samguk_yusa&#xA;  [4]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayodhya&#xA;  [5]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saket&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/VPAUk.jpg&#xA;  [7]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gim_clan_of_Gimhae&#xA;  [8]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/j9wZp.jpg&#xA;  [9]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/TmVHi.jpg&#xA;  [10]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emblem_of_Uttar_Pradesh&#xA;  [11]: https://m.timesofindia.com/city/lucknow/The-emblem-story/articleshow/201009.cms&#xA;  [12]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/xCfE8.jpg&#xA;  [13]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nawab_of_Awadh&#xA;  [14]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/s5xgn.jpg&#xA;  [15]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayutthaya_Kingdom&#xA;  [16]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ay_kingdom&#xA;  [17]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandya_Kingdom&#xA;  [18]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_Nadu&#xA;  [19]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanyakumari&#xA;  [20]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandyan_dynasty&#xA;  [21]: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Twin_fish_flag_of_Pandyas.svg&#xA;  [22]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/8IXZr.jpg&#xA;  [23]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/mSDpC.jpg&#xA;  [24]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MjDMi.jpg&#xA;  [25]: https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/m.timesofindia.com/city/chennai/Korean-envoy-proud-of-his-Tamil-links/amp_articleshow/53277831.cms&#xA;  [26]: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-relationship-of-Princess-Heo-Hwang-Ok-with-India&#xA;  [27]: https://m.economictimes.com/south-koreans-may-have-indian-genes/amp_articleshow/823181.cms" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17650" PostHistoryTypeId="36" PostId="5312" RevisionGUID="f49f1008-d9d9-4fed-86ab-22c5b63b633b" CreationDate="2018-12-07T12:30:58.193" UserId="-1" Comment="from https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/49761/was-korean-queen-heo-hwang-ok-indo-aryan-or-tamil" />
  <row Id="17651" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5312" RevisionGUID="be69fb8f-4a48-45cc-be1c-fb06586d1ccb" CreationDate="2018-12-03T16:19:32.473" UserId="5431" Text="|untagged|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17652" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5312" RevisionGUID="be69fb8f-4a48-45cc-be1c-fb06586d1ccb" CreationDate="2018-12-03T16:19:32.473" UserId="5431" Text="Was Korean Queen Heo Hwang-ok Indo-Aryan or Tamil?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17653" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5313" RevisionGUID="ded8ae76-5e1b-48dc-9d27-41bf2936802c" CreationDate="2018-12-07T12:32:50.267" UserId="5619" Text="My family (for these intents and purposes) comes from the southern mountains of Appalachian Virginia. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The older folks told tales of three specific monsters as warning against wayward children misbehaving (like many legends begin, I assume).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;h3&gt;The Welcome Stretcher&lt;/h3&gt;&#xD;&#xA;A hairy loping figure with a seemingly normal torso, but its limbs were grotesquely doubled in length, each ending in a grasping, clawed, &quot;hand&quot;. If you were found out in the night while it prowled the mountains, it would grab a hold of you by the wrists and ankles. The remainder of your existence would be brief and excruciating as your legs and arms were ripped from your center.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;h3&gt;Maul Tail&lt;/h3&gt;&#xD;&#xA;A giant muskrat creature (like deer-sized) with a spike-ball tail. It is unsure whether it harbors any ill will or is just a  creature in the night. If you find yourself on the tail-end of this thing, however, you won't get a chance to contemplate one way or the other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;h3&gt;Bloody Bones&lt;/h3&gt;&#xD;&#xA;A horrifying visage that lurks for those who misbehave. No matter which direction you view this creature from, you see fresh bone protruding from peeled back, gory, flesh. The skull is always watching, waiting for you to come closer. If it catches a wayward soul out in the dark, then it would rip the bones from your body. Some say that he wears them until he finds another victim." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17654" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5313" RevisionGUID="ded8ae76-5e1b-48dc-9d27-41bf2936802c" CreationDate="2018-12-07T12:32:50.267" UserId="5619" Text="What is the origin of these creatures?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17655" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5313" RevisionGUID="ded8ae76-5e1b-48dc-9d27-41bf2936802c" CreationDate="2018-12-07T12:32:50.267" UserId="5619" Text="|myth-identification|mythical-creatures|folklore|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17656" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5312" RevisionGUID="18cec574-ec6b-4b5f-aa04-acbebec154af" CreationDate="2018-12-07T13:08:28.790" UserId="5431" Comment="added 252 characters in body; edited tags" Text="&gt; This question has two parts. 1. Is there any evidence that Queen Heo was a historical figure and not just a legend; and is there any proof that her tomb really houses her body?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; And 2. Is it more likely that she was Indo-Aryan or Tamil (or Thai)?&#xA;&#xA;[Heo Hwang-ok][1] was the wife of King [Suro of Geumgwan Gaya][2] (death 199 AD).&#xA;&#xA;According to the 13th Century [Samguk Yusa (Memorabilia of the Three Kingdoms)][3] Chronicle she was a Princess of the &quot;Ayuta Kingdom&quot;, said to be a distant country. &#xA;&#xA;It is commonly (and officially) held to refer to [Ayodhya][4], India, but there are no records of this foreign voyage and marriage in Indo-Aryan history. This theory is based on 1. phonetic similarity, and 2. the twin fish symbol, but both theories don't seem to hold up.&#xA;&#xA;In ancient times the city was called [Saketa][5], not Ayodhya, but the later name did exist in Medieval times when the Chronicle was written.&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][6]][6]&#xA;&#xA;The twin fish symbol, as seen here on a gate to the tomb of King Suro, was used as the emblem of his descendants the [Gim clan of Gimhae][7].&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][8]][8]&#xA;&#xA;The Indian state of Uttar Pradesh uses twin fish symbology also, which includes the city of Ayodhya, but:&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][9]][9]&#xA;&#xA;This [Emblem of Uttar Pradesh][10] was [designed in 1916][11] by the Royal Society in the United Kingdom for the (then) United Provinces of Agra and Oudh, and the pair of Matsya fish to represent the former Muslim rulers of Oudh. &#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][12]][12]&#xA;&#xA;The [Nawab of Oudh][13] themselves had **a single fish symbol**, but they were an 18th and 19th Century power.&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][14]][14]&#xA;&#xA;So that theory seems fundamentally flawed.&#xA;&#xA;There are two other theories as to get origin. Either that she came from the [Ayutthaya Kingdom][15] of Thailand -- another theory that seems flawed because the Thai city was not founded until 1350 CE, after the composition of Samguk Yusa. &#xA;&#xA;Or, that she was Tamil, from [Ayi][16], a vassal state of the [Pandya Kingdom][17] in present-day [Tamil Nadu, India][18]. The area is today's [Kanyakumari][19].&#xA;&#xA;The ancient Tamil [Pandyan Dynasty][20] ruled from 300 BCE–1650 CE and had a [Twin Fish Flag and Emblem][21]:&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][22]][22]&#xA;[![enter image description here][23]][23]&#xA;[![enter image description here][24]][24]&#xA;&#xA;Kanyakumari is said to have been called Ayuta in ancient times, and the Tamil and Korean language and cultures [are said][25] to have commonalities.&#xA;&#xA;It seems most likely to me that the Tamil theory is the strongest.&#xA;&#xA;Was she Tamil or Indo-Aryan?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; There quite a few interesting Quora discussions on the topic: [Such as this][26].&#xA;&#xA;&gt; An interesting DNA test from the Royal Gaya tombs is talked about [in this article][27].&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heo_Hwang-ok&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suro_of_Geumgwan_Gaya&#xA;  [3]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samguk_yusa&#xA;  [4]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayodhya&#xA;  [5]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saket&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/VPAUk.jpg&#xA;  [7]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gim_clan_of_Gimhae&#xA;  [8]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/j9wZp.jpg&#xA;  [9]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/TmVHi.jpg&#xA;  [10]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emblem_of_Uttar_Pradesh&#xA;  [11]: https://m.timesofindia.com/city/lucknow/The-emblem-story/articleshow/201009.cms&#xA;  [12]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/xCfE8.jpg&#xA;  [13]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nawab_of_Awadh&#xA;  [14]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/s5xgn.jpg&#xA;  [15]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayutthaya_Kingdom&#xA;  [16]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ay_kingdom&#xA;  [17]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandya_Kingdom&#xA;  [18]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_Nadu&#xA;  [19]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanyakumari&#xA;  [20]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandyan_dynasty&#xA;  [21]: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Twin_fish_flag_of_Pandyas.svg&#xA;  [22]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/8IXZr.jpg&#xA;  [23]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/mSDpC.jpg&#xA;  [24]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MjDMi.jpg&#xA;  [25]: https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/m.timesofindia.com/city/chennai/Korean-envoy-proud-of-his-Tamil-links/amp_articleshow/53277831.cms&#xA;  [26]: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-relationship-of-Princess-Heo-Hwang-Ok-with-India&#xA;  [27]: https://m.economictimes.com/south-koreans-may-have-indian-genes/amp_articleshow/823181.cms" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17657" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5312" RevisionGUID="18cec574-ec6b-4b5f-aa04-acbebec154af" CreationDate="2018-12-07T13:08:28.790" UserId="5431" Comment="added 252 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|korean|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17658" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5312" RevisionGUID="b377057f-014b-4636-aacc-4a6c3be4ab13" CreationDate="2018-12-07T13:15:47.927" UserId="5431" Comment="added 31 characters in body; added 26 characters in body; added 2 characters in body" Text="&gt; This question has two parts. &#xA;&#xA;&gt; **1. Did Queen Heo exist?**&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any evidence that Queen Heo was a historical figure and not just a legend?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any proof that her tomb really houses her body?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; **2. Where did she come from?**&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is it more likely that she was Indo-Aryan or Tamil (or Thai)?&#xA;&#xA;[Heo Hwang-ok][1] was the wife of King [Suro of Geumgwan Gaya][2] (death 199 AD).&#xA;&#xA;According to the 13th Century [Samguk Yusa (Memorabilia of the Three Kingdoms)][3] Chronicle she was a Princess of the &quot;Ayuta Kingdom&quot;, said to be a distant country. &#xA;&#xA;It is commonly (and officially) held to refer to [Ayodhya][4], India, but there are no records of this foreign voyage and marriage in Indo-Aryan history. This theory is based on 1. phonetic similarity, and 2. the twin fish symbol, but both theories don't seem to hold up.&#xA;&#xA;In ancient times the city was called [Saketa][5], not Ayodhya, but the later name did exist in Medieval times when the Chronicle was written.&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][6]][6]&#xA;&#xA;The twin fish symbol, as seen here on a gate to the tomb of King Suro, was used as the emblem of his descendants the [Gim clan of Gimhae][7].&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][8]][8]&#xA;&#xA;The Indian state of Uttar Pradesh uses twin fish symbology also, which includes the city of Ayodhya, but:&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][9]][9]&#xA;&#xA;This [Emblem of Uttar Pradesh][10] was [designed in 1916][11] by the Royal Society in the United Kingdom for the (then) United Provinces of Agra and Oudh, and the pair of Matsya fish to represent the former Muslim rulers of Oudh. &#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][12]][12]&#xA;&#xA;The [Nawab of Oudh][13] themselves had **a single fish symbol**, but they were an 18th and 19th Century power.&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][14]][14]&#xA;&#xA;So that theory seems fundamentally flawed.&#xA;&#xA;There are two other theories as to get origin. Either that she came from the [Ayutthaya Kingdom][15] of Thailand -- another theory that seems flawed because the Thai city was not founded until 1350 CE, after the composition of Samguk Yusa. &#xA;&#xA;Or, that she was Tamil, from [Ayi][16], a vassal state of the [Pandya Kingdom][17] in present-day [Tamil Nadu, India][18]. The area is today's [Kanyakumari][19].&#xA;&#xA;The ancient Tamil [Pandyan Dynasty][20] ruled from 300 BCE–1650 CE and had a [Twin Fish Flag and Emblem][21]:&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][22]][22]&#xA;[![enter image description here][23]][23]&#xA;[![enter image description here][24]][24]&#xA;&#xA;Kanyakumari is said to have been called Ayuta in ancient times, and the Tamil and Korean language and cultures [are said][25] to have commonalities.&#xA;&#xA;It seems most likely to me that the Tamil theory is the strongest.&#xA;&#xA;Was she Tamil or Indo-Aryan?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; There quite a few interesting Quora discussions on the topic: [Such as this][26].&#xA;&#xA;&gt; An interesting DNA test from the Royal Gaya tombs is talked about [in this article][27].&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heo_Hwang-ok&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suro_of_Geumgwan_Gaya&#xA;  [3]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samguk_yusa&#xA;  [4]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayodhya&#xA;  [5]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saket&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/VPAUk.jpg&#xA;  [7]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gim_clan_of_Gimhae&#xA;  [8]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/j9wZp.jpg&#xA;  [9]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/TmVHi.jpg&#xA;  [10]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emblem_of_Uttar_Pradesh&#xA;  [11]: https://m.timesofindia.com/city/lucknow/The-emblem-story/articleshow/201009.cms&#xA;  [12]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/xCfE8.jpg&#xA;  [13]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nawab_of_Awadh&#xA;  [14]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/s5xgn.jpg&#xA;  [15]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayutthaya_Kingdom&#xA;  [16]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ay_kingdom&#xA;  [17]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandya_Kingdom&#xA;  [18]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_Nadu&#xA;  [19]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanyakumari&#xA;  [20]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandyan_dynasty&#xA;  [21]: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Twin_fish_flag_of_Pandyas.svg&#xA;  [22]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/8IXZr.jpg&#xA;  [23]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/mSDpC.jpg&#xA;  [24]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MjDMi.jpg&#xA;  [25]: https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/m.timesofindia.com/city/chennai/Korean-envoy-proud-of-his-Tamil-links/amp_articleshow/53277831.cms&#xA;  [26]: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-relationship-of-Princess-Heo-Hwang-Ok-with-India&#xA;  [27]: https://m.economictimes.com/south-koreans-may-have-indian-genes/amp_articleshow/823181.cms" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17659" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5312" RevisionGUID="0a08caa2-51a1-4abb-aa83-020c360fb098" CreationDate="2018-12-07T13:22:06.820" UserId="5431" Comment="added 207 characters in body" Text="&gt; This question has two parts. &#xA;&#xA;&gt; **1. Did Queen Heo exist?**&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any evidence that Queen Heo was a historical figure and not just a legend?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any proof that her tomb really houses her body?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Does she appear in the [Samguk Sagi][1] or any other historical records?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any archaeological or other tangible evidence for her existence?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; **2. Where did she come from?**&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is it more likely that she was Indo-Aryan or Tamil (or Thai)?&#xA;&#xA;[Heo Hwang-ok][2] was the wife of King [Suro of Geumgwan Gaya][3] (death 199 AD).&#xA;&#xA;According to the 13th Century [Samguk Yusa (Memorabilia of the Three Kingdoms)][4] Chronicle she was a Princess of the &quot;Ayuta Kingdom&quot;, said to be a distant country. &#xA;&#xA;It is commonly (and officially) held to refer to [Ayodhya][5], India, but there are no records of this foreign voyage and marriage in Indo-Aryan history. This theory is based on 1. phonetic similarity, and 2. the twin fish symbol, but both theories don't seem to hold up.&#xA;&#xA;In ancient times the city was called [Saketa][6], not Ayodhya, but the later name did exist in Medieval times when the Chronicle was written.&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][7]][7]&#xA;&#xA;The twin fish symbol, as seen here on a gate to the tomb of King Suro, was used as the emblem of his descendants the [Gim clan of Gimhae][8].&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][9]][9]&#xA;&#xA;The Indian state of Uttar Pradesh uses twin fish symbology also, which includes the city of Ayodhya, but:&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][10]][10]&#xA;&#xA;This [Emblem of Uttar Pradesh][11] was [designed in 1916][12] by the Royal Society in the United Kingdom for the (then) United Provinces of Agra and Oudh, and the pair of Matsya fish to represent the former Muslim rulers of Oudh. &#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][13]][13]&#xA;&#xA;The [Nawab of Oudh][14] themselves had **a single fish symbol**, but they were an 18th and 19th Century power.&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][15]][15]&#xA;&#xA;So that theory seems fundamentally flawed.&#xA;&#xA;There are two other theories as to get origin. Either that she came from the [Ayutthaya Kingdom][16] of Thailand -- another theory that seems flawed because the Thai city was not founded until 1350 CE, after the composition of Samguk Yusa. &#xA;&#xA;Or, that she was Tamil, from [Ayi][17], a vassal state of the [Pandya Kingdom][18] in present-day [Tamil Nadu, India][19]. The area is today's [Kanyakumari][20].&#xA;&#xA;The ancient Tamil [Pandyan Dynasty][21] ruled from 300 BCE–1650 CE and had a [Twin Fish Flag and Emblem][22]:&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][23]][23]&#xA;[![enter image description here][24]][24]&#xA;[![enter image description here][25]][25]&#xA;&#xA;Kanyakumari is said to have been called Ayuta in ancient times, and the Tamil and Korean language and cultures [are said][26] to have commonalities.&#xA;&#xA;It seems most likely to me that the Tamil theory is the strongest.&#xA;&#xA;Was she Tamil or Indo-Aryan?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; There quite a few interesting Quora discussions on the topic: [Such as this][27].&#xA;&#xA;&gt; An interesting DNA test from the Royal Gaya tombs is talked about [in this article][28].&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samguk_sagi&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heo_Hwang-ok&#xA;  [3]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suro_of_Geumgwan_Gaya&#xA;  [4]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samguk_yusa&#xA;  [5]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayodhya&#xA;  [6]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saket&#xA;  [7]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/VPAUk.jpg&#xA;  [8]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gim_clan_of_Gimhae&#xA;  [9]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/j9wZp.jpg&#xA;  [10]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/TmVHi.jpg&#xA;  [11]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emblem_of_Uttar_Pradesh&#xA;  [12]: https://m.timesofindia.com/city/lucknow/The-emblem-story/articleshow/201009.cms&#xA;  [13]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/xCfE8.jpg&#xA;  [14]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nawab_of_Awadh&#xA;  [15]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/s5xgn.jpg&#xA;  [16]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayutthaya_Kingdom&#xA;  [17]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ay_kingdom&#xA;  [18]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandya_Kingdom&#xA;  [19]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_Nadu&#xA;  [20]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanyakumari&#xA;  [21]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandyan_dynasty&#xA;  [22]: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Twin_fish_flag_of_Pandyas.svg&#xA;  [23]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/8IXZr.jpg&#xA;  [24]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/mSDpC.jpg&#xA;  [25]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MjDMi.jpg&#xA;  [26]: https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/m.timesofindia.com/city/chennai/Korean-envoy-proud-of-his-Tamil-links/amp_articleshow/53277831.cms&#xA;  [27]: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-relationship-of-Princess-Heo-Hwang-Ok-with-India&#xA;  [28]: https://m.economictimes.com/south-koreans-may-have-indian-genes/amp_articleshow/823181.cms" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17660" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5314" RevisionGUID="efeeae2f-1140-4715-9772-29ab39a713b5" CreationDate="2018-12-07T13:50:46.500" UserDisplayName="user5459" Text="Does such a way of time travel occur in ancient myths?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17661" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5314" RevisionGUID="efeeae2f-1140-4715-9772-29ab39a713b5" CreationDate="2018-12-07T13:50:46.500" UserDisplayName="user5459" Text="Are there any ancient myths about humans travelling back in time?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17662" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5314" RevisionGUID="efeeae2f-1140-4715-9772-29ab39a713b5" CreationDate="2018-12-07T13:50:46.500" UserDisplayName="user5459" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17663" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5312" RevisionGUID="f039564d-44ad-4553-8e81-bc255dbc7113" CreationDate="2018-12-07T13:54:18.750" UserId="5431" Comment="added 443 characters in body; added 21 characters in body" Text="&gt; This question has two parts. &#xA;&#xA;&gt; **1. Did Queen Heo exist?**&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any evidence that Queen Heo was a historical figure and not just a legend?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any proof that her tomb really houses her body?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Does she appear in the [Samguk Sagi][1] or any other historical records?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any archaeological or other tangible evidence for her existence?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; **2. Where did she come from?**&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is it more likely that she was Indo-Aryan or Tamil (or Thai)?&#xA;&#xA;[Heo Hwang-ok][2] was the wife of King [Suro of Geumgwan Gaya][3] (death 199 AD).&#xA;&#xA;According to the 13th Century [Samguk Yusa (Memorabilia of the Three Kingdoms)][4] Chronicle she was a Princess of the &quot;Ayuta Kingdom&quot;, said to be a distant country. &#xA;&#xA;It is commonly (and [officially][5]) held to refer to [Ayodhya][6], India, but there are no records of this foreign voyage and marriage in Indo-Aryan history. This theory is based on 1. phonetic similarity, and 2. the twin fish symbol, but both theories don't seem to hold up.&#xA;&#xA;In ancient times the city was called [Saketa][7], not Ayodhya, but the later name did exist in Medieval times when the Chronicle was written.&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][8]][8]&#xA;&#xA;The twin fish symbol, as seen here on a gate to the tomb of King Suro, was used as the emblem of his descendants the [Gim clan of Gimhae][9].&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][10]][10]&#xA;&#xA;The Indian state of Uttar Pradesh uses twin fish symbology also, which includes the city of Ayodhya, but:&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][11]][11]&#xA;&#xA;This [Emblem of Uttar Pradesh][12] was [designed in 1916][13] by the Royal Society in the United Kingdom for the (then) United Provinces of Agra and Oudh, and the pair of Matsya fish to represent the former Muslim rulers of Oudh. &#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][14]][14]&#xA;&#xA;The [Nawab of Oudh][15] themselves had **a single fish symbol**, but they were an 18th and 19th Century power.&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][16]][16]&#xA;&#xA;So that theory seems fundamentally flawed.&#xA;&#xA;There are two other theories as to get origin. Either that she came from the [Ayutthaya Kingdom][17] of Thailand -- another theory that seems flawed because the Thai city was not founded until 1350 CE, after the composition of Samguk Yusa. &#xA;&#xA;Or, that she was Tamil, from [Ayi][18], a vassal state of the [Pandya Kingdom][19] in present-day [Tamil Nadu, India][20]. The area is today's [Kanyakumari][21].&#xA;&#xA;The ancient Tamil [Pandyan Dynasty][22] ruled from 300 BCE–1650 CE and had a [Twin Fish Flag and Emblem][23]:&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][24]][24]&#xA;[![enter image description here][25]][25]&#xA;[![enter image description here][26]][26]&#xA;&#xA;Kanyakumari is said to have been called Ayuta in ancient times, and the Tamil and Korean language and cultures [are said][27] to have commonalities.&#xA;&#xA;It seems most likely to me that the Tamil theory is the strongest.&#xA;&#xA;Was she Tamil or Indo-Aryan?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; **Notes**&#xA;&#xA;&gt; There quite a few interesting Quora discussions on the topic: [Such as this][28].&#xA;&#xA;&gt; An interesting DNA test from the Royal Gaya tombs is talked about [in this article][29].&#xA;&#xA;&gt; “Archaeological evidence indicates that the people of [Tamna][30] [of Jeju Island] were engaging in active trade with Han Dynasty China and Yayoi Japan, South-east-asian nations, with the Tamil Chola dynasty, as well as mainland Korea, by the 1st century AD.” So Tamil-Korean trade links have existed from ancient times.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samguk_sagi&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heo_Hwang-ok&#xA;  [3]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suro_of_Geumgwan_Gaya&#xA;  [4]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samguk_yusa&#xA;  [5]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_of_Heo_Hwang-ok,_Ayodhya&#xA;  [6]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayodhya&#xA;  [7]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saket&#xA;  [8]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/VPAUk.jpg&#xA;  [9]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gim_clan_of_Gimhae&#xA;  [10]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/j9wZp.jpg&#xA;  [11]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/TmVHi.jpg&#xA;  [12]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emblem_of_Uttar_Pradesh&#xA;  [13]: https://m.timesofindia.com/city/lucknow/The-emblem-story/articleshow/201009.cms&#xA;  [14]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/xCfE8.jpg&#xA;  [15]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nawab_of_Awadh&#xA;  [16]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/s5xgn.jpg&#xA;  [17]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayutthaya_Kingdom&#xA;  [18]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ay_kingdom&#xA;  [19]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandya_Kingdom&#xA;  [20]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_Nadu&#xA;  [21]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanyakumari&#xA;  [22]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandyan_dynasty&#xA;  [23]: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Twin_fish_flag_of_Pandyas.svg&#xA;  [24]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/8IXZr.jpg&#xA;  [25]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/mSDpC.jpg&#xA;  [26]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MjDMi.jpg&#xA;  [27]: https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/m.timesofindia.com/city/chennai/Korean-envoy-proud-of-his-Tamil-links/amp_articleshow/53277831.cms&#xA;  [28]: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-relationship-of-Princess-Heo-Hwang-Ok-with-India&#xA;  [29]: https://m.economictimes.com/south-koreans-may-have-indian-genes/amp_articleshow/823181.cms&#xA;  [30]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamna" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17664" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5314" RevisionGUID="4255b889-dc38-4c07-bc9b-4cfec8edefb4" CreationDate="2018-12-07T14:09:10.100" UserDisplayName="user5459" Comment="added 6 characters in body" Text="Does such a way of human time travel occur in ancient myths?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17665" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5313" RevisionGUID="0ef1982a-e7f9-40fa-982e-980a7cbff47a" CreationDate="2018-12-07T14:18:00.957" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags; edited title" Text="What is the origin of these creatures in Appalachian folklore?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17666" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5313" RevisionGUID="0ef1982a-e7f9-40fa-982e-980a7cbff47a" CreationDate="2018-12-07T14:18:00.957" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags; edited title" Text="|myth-identification|mythical-creatures|folklore|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17667" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5313" RevisionGUID="a6cb502f-a3b2-4a60-94a3-f2871977f768" CreationDate="2018-12-07T14:57:56.220" UserId="5619" Comment="tense change" Text="My family (for these intents and purposes) comes from the mountains of Appalachian southern Virginia. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The older folks told tales of three specific monsters as warning against wayward children misbehaving (like many legends begin, I assume).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;h3&gt;The Welcome Stretcher&lt;/h3&gt;&#xD;&#xA;A hairy loping figure with a seemingly normal torso, but its limbs are grotesquely doubled in length, each ending in a grasping, clawed, &quot;hand&quot;. If you're found out in the night while it prowls the mountains, it will grab a hold of you by the wrists and ankles. The remainder of your existence is brief and excruciating as your legs and arms are ripped from your center.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;h3&gt;Maul Tail&lt;/h3&gt;&#xD;&#xA;A giant muskrat creature (like deer-sized) with a spike-ball tail. It is unsure whether it harbors any ill will or is just a  creature in the night. If you find yourself on the tail-end of this thing, however, you won't get a chance to contemplate one way or the other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;h3&gt;Bloody Bones&lt;/h3&gt;&#xD;&#xA;A horrifying visage that lurks for those who misbehave. No matter which direction you view this creature from, you see fresh bone protruding from peeled back, gory, flesh. The skull is always watching, waiting for you to come closer. If it catches a wayward soul out in the dark, then it would rip the bones from your body. Some say that he wears them until he finds another victim." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17668" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5312" RevisionGUID="3560180c-e8df-49fd-b21b-cc7464253126" CreationDate="2018-12-07T15:50:01.877" UserId="5431" Comment="edited title; added 4 characters in body; deleted 5 characters in body" Text="Did Korean Queen Heo Hwang-ok Exist and was she Indo-Aryan or Tamil?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17669" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5312" RevisionGUID="3560180c-e8df-49fd-b21b-cc7464253126" CreationDate="2018-12-07T15:50:01.877" UserId="5431" Comment="edited title; added 4 characters in body; deleted 5 characters in body" Text="&gt; This question has two parts. &#xA;&#xA;&gt; **1. Did Queen Heo exist?**&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any evidence that Queen Heo was a historical figure and not just a legend?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any proof that her tomb really houses her body?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Does she appear in the [Samguk Sagi][1] or any other historical records?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any archaeological or other tangible evidence for her existence?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; **2. Where did she come from?**&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is it more likely that she was Indo-Aryan or Tamil (or Thai)?&#xA;&#xA;[Heo Hwang-ok][2] was the wife of King [Suro of Geumgwan Gaya][3] (death 199 AD).&#xA;&#xA;According to the 13th Century [Samguk Yusa (Memorabilia of the Three Kingdoms)][4] Chronicle she was a Princess of the &quot;Ayuta Kingdom&quot;, said to be a distant country. &#xA;&#xA;It is commonly (and [officially][5]) held to refer to [Ayodhya][6], India, but there are no records of this foreign voyage and marriage in Indo-Aryan history. This theory is based on 1. phonetic similarity, and 2. the twin fish symbol, but both theories don't seem to hold up.&#xA;&#xA;In ancient times the city was called [Saketa][7], not Ayodhya, but the later name did exist in Medieval times when the Chronicle was written.&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][8]][8]&#xA;&#xA;The twin fish symbol, as seen here on a gate to the tomb of King Suro, was used as the emblem of his descendants the [Gim clan of Gimhae][9].&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][10]][10]&#xA;&#xA;The Indian state of Uttar Pradesh (which includes the city of Ayodhya) uses twin fish symbology but:&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][11]][11]&#xA;&#xA;This [Emblem of Uttar Pradesh][12] was [designed in 1916][13] by the Royal Society in the United Kingdom for the (then) United Provinces of Agra and Oudh, and the pair of Matsya fish  represented the former Muslim rulers of Oudh. &#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][14]][14]&#xA;&#xA;The [Nawab of Oudh][15] themselves had **a single fish symbol**, but they were an 18th and 19th Century power.&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][16]][16]&#xA;&#xA;So that theory seems fundamentally flawed.&#xA;&#xA;There are two other theories as to her origin. Either that she came from the [Ayutthaya Kingdom][17] of Thailand -- another theory that seems flawed because the Thai city was not founded until 1350 CE, after the composition of Samguk Yusa. &#xA;&#xA;Or, that she was Tamil, from [Ayi][18], a vassal state of the [Pandya Kingdom][19] in present-day [Tamil Nadu, India][20]. The area is today's [Kanyakumari][21].&#xA;&#xA;The ancient Tamil [Pandyan Dynasty][22] ruled from 300 BCE–1650 CE and had a [Twin Fish Flag and Emblem][23]:&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][24]][24]&#xA;[![enter image description here][25]][25]&#xA;[![enter image description here][26]][26]&#xA;&#xA;Kanyakumari is said to have been called Ayuta in ancient times, and the Tamil and Korean language and cultures [are said][27] to have commonalities.&#xA;&#xA;It seems most likely to me that the Tamil theory is the strongest.&#xA;&#xA;Was she Tamil or Indo-Aryan?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; **Notes**&#xA;&#xA;&gt; There are quite a few interesting Quora discussions on the topic: [Such as this][28].&#xA;&#xA;&gt; An interesting DNA test from the Royal Gaya tombs is talked about [in this article][29].&#xA;&#xA;&gt; “Archaeological evidence indicates that the people of [Tamna][30] [of Jeju Island] were engaging in active trade with Han Dynasty China and Yayoi Japan, South-east-asian nations, with the Tamil Chola dynasty, as well as mainland Korea, by the 1st century AD.” So Tamil-Korean trade links have existed from ancient times.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samguk_sagi&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heo_Hwang-ok&#xA;  [3]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suro_of_Geumgwan_Gaya&#xA;  [4]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samguk_yusa&#xA;  [5]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_of_Heo_Hwang-ok,_Ayodhya&#xA;  [6]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayodhya&#xA;  [7]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saket&#xA;  [8]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/VPAUk.jpg&#xA;  [9]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gim_clan_of_Gimhae&#xA;  [10]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/j9wZp.jpg&#xA;  [11]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/TmVHi.jpg&#xA;  [12]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emblem_of_Uttar_Pradesh&#xA;  [13]: https://m.timesofindia.com/city/lucknow/The-emblem-story/articleshow/201009.cms&#xA;  [14]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/xCfE8.jpg&#xA;  [15]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nawab_of_Awadh&#xA;  [16]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/s5xgn.jpg&#xA;  [17]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayutthaya_Kingdom&#xA;  [18]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ay_kingdom&#xA;  [19]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandya_Kingdom&#xA;  [20]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_Nadu&#xA;  [21]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanyakumari&#xA;  [22]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandyan_dynasty&#xA;  [23]: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Twin_fish_flag_of_Pandyas.svg&#xA;  [24]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/8IXZr.jpg&#xA;  [25]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/mSDpC.jpg&#xA;  [26]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MjDMi.jpg&#xA;  [27]: https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/m.timesofindia.com/city/chennai/Korean-envoy-proud-of-his-Tamil-links/amp_articleshow/53277831.cms&#xA;  [28]: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-relationship-of-Princess-Heo-Hwang-Ok-with-India&#xA;  [29]: https://m.economictimes.com/south-koreans-may-have-indian-genes/amp_articleshow/823181.cms&#xA;  [30]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamna" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17670" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5312" RevisionGUID="6c673e73-2bfb-478d-9dc6-f0373b88f628" CreationDate="2018-12-07T16:05:29.340" UserId="5431" Comment="added 72 characters in body; added 120 characters in body" Text="&gt; This question has two parts. &#xA;&#xA;&gt; **1. Did Queen Heo exist?**&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any evidence that Queen Heo was a historical figure and not just a legend?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any proof that her [tomb in Korea][1] really houses her body?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Does she appear in the [Samguk Sagi][2] or any other historical records?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any archaeological or other tangible evidence for her existence?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; **2. Where did she come from?**&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is it more likely that she was Indo-Aryan or Tamil (or Thai)?&#xA;&#xA;[Heo Hwang-ok][3] was the wife of King [Suro of Geumgwan Gaya][4] (death 199 AD).&#xA;&#xA;According to the 13th Century [Samguk Yusa (Memorabilia of the Three Kingdoms)][5] Chronicle she was a Princess of the &quot;Ayuta Kingdom&quot;, said to be a distant country. &#xA;&#xA;It is commonly (and [officially][6]) held to refer to [Ayodhya][7], India, but there are no records of this foreign voyage and marriage in Indo-Aryan history. This theory is based on 1. phonetic similarity, and 2. the twin fish symbol, but both theories don't seem to hold up.&#xA;&#xA;In ancient times the city was called [Saketa][8], not Ayodhya, but the later name did exist in Medieval times when the Chronicle was written.&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][9]][9]&#xA;&#xA;The twin fish symbol, as seen here on a gate to the tomb of King Suro, was used as the emblem of his descendants the [Gim clan of Gimhae][10].&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][11]][11]&#xA;&#xA;The Indian state of Uttar Pradesh (which includes the city of Ayodhya) uses twin fish symbology but:&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][12]][12]&#xA;&#xA;This [Emblem of Uttar Pradesh][13] was [designed in 1916][14] by the Royal Society in the United Kingdom for the (then) United Provinces of Agra and Oudh, and the pair of Matsya fish  represented the former Muslim rulers of Oudh. &#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][15]][15]&#xA;&#xA;The [Nawab of Oudh][16] themselves had **a single fish symbol**, but they were an 18th and 19th Century power.&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][17]][17]&#xA;&#xA;So that theory seems fundamentally flawed.&#xA;&#xA;There are two other theories as to her origin. Either that she came from the [Ayutthaya Kingdom][18] of Thailand -- another theory that seems flawed because the Thai city was not founded until 1350 CE, after the composition of Samguk Yusa. &#xA;&#xA;Or, that she was Tamil, from [Ayi][19], a vassal state of the [Pandya Kingdom][20] in present-day [Tamil Nadu, India][21]. The area is today's [Kanyakumari][22].&#xA;&#xA;The ancient Tamil [Pandyan Dynasty][23] ruled from 300 BCE–1650 CE and had a [Twin Fish Flag and Emblem][24]:&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][25]][25]&#xA;[![enter image description here][26]][26]&#xA;[![enter image description here][27]][27]&#xA;&#xA;Kanyakumari is said to have been called Ayuta in ancient times, and the Tamil and Korean language and cultures [are said][28] to have commonalities.&#xA;&#xA;It seems most likely to me that the Tamil theory is the strongest.&#xA;&#xA;Was she Tamil or Indo-Aryan?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; **Notes**&#xA;&#xA;&gt; There are quite a few interesting Quora discussions on the topic: [Such as this][29].&#xA;&#xA;&gt; An interesting mitochondrial DNA test from the Royal Gaya tombs is talked about [in this article][30], showing maternal DNA traceable to South or South East Asian ethnic groups like Indian, Malaysian or Thai.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; “Archaeological evidence indicates that the people of [Tamna][31] [of Jeju Island] were engaging in active trade with Han Dynasty China and Yayoi Japan, South-east-asian nations, with the Tamil Chola dynasty, as well as mainland Korea, by the 1st century AD.” So Tamil-Korean trade links have existed from ancient times.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://enjoy-gimhae.org/en/수로왕릉비_영어/?ckattempt=1&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samguk_sagi&#xA;  [3]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heo_Hwang-ok&#xA;  [4]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suro_of_Geumgwan_Gaya&#xA;  [5]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samguk_yusa&#xA;  [6]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_of_Heo_Hwang-ok,_Ayodhya&#xA;  [7]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayodhya&#xA;  [8]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saket&#xA;  [9]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/VPAUk.jpg&#xA;  [10]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gim_clan_of_Gimhae&#xA;  [11]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/j9wZp.jpg&#xA;  [12]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/TmVHi.jpg&#xA;  [13]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emblem_of_Uttar_Pradesh&#xA;  [14]: https://m.timesofindia.com/city/lucknow/The-emblem-story/articleshow/201009.cms&#xA;  [15]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/xCfE8.jpg&#xA;  [16]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nawab_of_Awadh&#xA;  [17]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/s5xgn.jpg&#xA;  [18]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayutthaya_Kingdom&#xA;  [19]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ay_kingdom&#xA;  [20]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandya_Kingdom&#xA;  [21]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_Nadu&#xA;  [22]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanyakumari&#xA;  [23]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandyan_dynasty&#xA;  [24]: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Twin_fish_flag_of_Pandyas.svg&#xA;  [25]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/8IXZr.jpg&#xA;  [26]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/mSDpC.jpg&#xA;  [27]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MjDMi.jpg&#xA;  [28]: https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/m.timesofindia.com/city/chennai/Korean-envoy-proud-of-his-Tamil-links/amp_articleshow/53277831.cms&#xA;  [29]: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-relationship-of-Princess-Heo-Hwang-Ok-with-India&#xA;  [30]: https://m.economictimes.com/south-koreans-may-have-indian-genes/amp_articleshow/823181.cms&#xA;  [31]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamna" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17671" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5312" RevisionGUID="815710c4-23e4-4701-bbfa-0cd6f9706350" CreationDate="2018-12-08T05:06:07.023" UserId="5431" Comment="added 165 characters in body; added 6 characters in body; added 1 character in body" Text="&gt; This question has two parts. &#xA;&#xA;&gt; **1. Did Queen Heo exist?**&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any evidence that Queen Heo was a historical figure and not just a legend?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any proof that her [tomb in Korea][1] really houses her body?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Does she appear in the [Samguk Sagi][2] or any other historical records?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any archaeological or other tangible evidence for her existence?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; **2. Where did she come from?**&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is it more likely that she was Indo-Aryan or Tamil (or Thai)?&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xA;&#xA;*Photo from Tomb in Gimhae, Korea, kindly provided by Professor KIM Byung-Mo*&#xA;&#xA;Queen [Heo Hwang-ok][4] was the wife of King [Suro of Geumgwan Gaya][5] (death 199 AD).&#xA;&#xA;According to the 13th Century [Samguk Yusa (Memorabilia of the Three Kingdoms)][6] Chronicle she was a Princess of the &quot;Ayuta Kingdom&quot;, said to be a distant country. &#xA;&#xA;It is commonly (and [officially][7]) held to refer to [Ayodhya][8], India, but there are no records of this foreign voyage and marriage in Indo-Aryan history. This theory is based on 1. phonetic similarity, and 2. the twin fish symbol, but both theories don't seem to hold up.&#xA;&#xA;In ancient times the city was called [Saketa][9], not Ayodhya, but the later name did exist in Medieval times when the Chronicle was written.&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][10]][10]&#xA;&#xA;The twin fish symbol, as seen here on a gate to the tomb of King Suro, was used as the emblem of his descendants the [Gim clan of Gimhae][11].&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][12]][12]&#xA;&#xA;The Indian state of Uttar Pradesh (which includes the city of Ayodhya) uses twin fish symbology but:&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][13]][13]&#xA;&#xA;This [Emblem of Uttar Pradesh][14] was [designed in 1916][15] by the Royal Society in the United Kingdom for the (then) United Provinces of Agra and Oudh, and the pair of Matsya fish  represented the former Muslim rulers of Oudh. &#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][16]][16]&#xA;&#xA;The [Nawab of Oudh][17] themselves had **a single fish symbol**, but they were an 18th and 19th Century power.&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][18]][18]&#xA;&#xA;So that theory seems fundamentally flawed.&#xA;&#xA;There are two other theories as to her origin. Either that she came from the [Ayutthaya Kingdom][19] of Thailand -- another theory that seems flawed because the Thai city was not founded until 1350 CE, after the composition of Samguk Yusa. &#xA;&#xA;Or, that she was Tamil, from [Ayi][20], a vassal state of the [Pandya Kingdom][21] in present-day [Tamil Nadu, India][22]. The area is today's [Kanyakumari][23].&#xA;&#xA;The ancient Tamil [Pandyan Dynasty][24] ruled from 300 BCE–1650 CE and had a [Twin Fish Flag and Emblem][25]:&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][26]][26]&#xA;[![enter image description here][27]][27]&#xA;[![enter image description here][28]][28]&#xA;&#xA;Kanyakumari is said to have been called Ayuta in ancient times, and the Tamil and Korean language and cultures [are said][29] to have commonalities.&#xA;&#xA;It seems most likely to me that the Tamil theory is the strongest.&#xA;&#xA;Was she Tamil or Indo-Aryan?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; **Notes**&#xA;&#xA;&gt; There are quite a few interesting Quora discussions on the topic: [Such as this][30].&#xA;&#xA;&gt; An interesting mitochondrial DNA test from the Royal Gaya tombs is talked about [in this article][31], showing maternal DNA traceable to South or South East Asian ethnic groups like Indian, Malaysian or Thai.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; “Archaeological evidence indicates that the people of [Tamna][32] [of Jeju Island] were engaging in active trade with Han Dynasty China and Yayoi Japan, South-east-asian nations, with the Tamil Chola dynasty, as well as mainland Korea, by the 1st century AD.” So Tamil-Korean trade links have existed from ancient times.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://enjoy-gimhae.org/en/수로왕릉비_영어/?ckattempt=1&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samguk_sagi&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/I6R99.jpg&#xA;  [4]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heo_Hwang-ok&#xA;  [5]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suro_of_Geumgwan_Gaya&#xA;  [6]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samguk_yusa&#xA;  [7]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_of_Heo_Hwang-ok,_Ayodhya&#xA;  [8]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayodhya&#xA;  [9]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saket&#xA;  [10]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/VPAUk.jpg&#xA;  [11]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gim_clan_of_Gimhae&#xA;  [12]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/j9wZp.jpg&#xA;  [13]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/TmVHi.jpg&#xA;  [14]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emblem_of_Uttar_Pradesh&#xA;  [15]: https://m.timesofindia.com/city/lucknow/The-emblem-story/articleshow/201009.cms&#xA;  [16]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/xCfE8.jpg&#xA;  [17]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nawab_of_Awadh&#xA;  [18]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/s5xgn.jpg&#xA;  [19]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayutthaya_Kingdom&#xA;  [20]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ay_kingdom&#xA;  [21]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandya_Kingdom&#xA;  [22]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_Nadu&#xA;  [23]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanyakumari&#xA;  [24]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandyan_dynasty&#xA;  [25]: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Twin_fish_flag_of_Pandyas.svg&#xA;  [26]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/8IXZr.jpg&#xA;  [27]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/mSDpC.jpg&#xA;  [28]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MjDMi.jpg&#xA;  [29]: https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/m.timesofindia.com/city/chennai/Korean-envoy-proud-of-his-Tamil-links/amp_articleshow/53277831.cms&#xA;  [30]: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-relationship-of-Princess-Heo-Hwang-Ok-with-India&#xA;  [31]: https://m.economictimes.com/south-koreans-may-have-indian-genes/amp_articleshow/823181.cms&#xA;  [32]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamna" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17672" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5312" RevisionGUID="18322a82-d8ab-492e-88bd-e02fabb7e78d" CreationDate="2018-12-08T05:13:21.027" UserId="5431" Comment="added 117 characters in body" Text="&gt; This question has two parts. &#xA;&#xA;&gt; **1. Did Queen Heo exist?**&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any evidence that Queen Heo was a historical figure and not just a legend?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any proof that her [tomb in Korea][1] really houses her body?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Does she appear in the [Samguk Sagi][2] or any other historical records?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any archaeological or other tangible evidence for her existence?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; **2. Where did she come from?**&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is it more likely that she was Indo-Aryan or Tamil (or Thai)?&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xA;&#xA;*Photo from Tomb in Gimhae, Korea, kindly provided by Professor Emeritus KIM Byung-Mo, senior anthropologist from Hanyang University, author of &quot;Heo Hwang-ok Route: From India to Gaya of Korea&quot;*&#xA;&#xA;Queen [Heo Hwang-ok][4] was the wife of King [Suro of Geumgwan Gaya][5] (death 199 AD).&#xA;&#xA;According to the 13th Century [Samguk Yusa (Memorabilia of the Three Kingdoms)][6] Chronicle she was a Princess of the &quot;Ayuta Kingdom&quot;, said to be a distant country. &#xA;&#xA;It is commonly (and [officially][7]) held to refer to [Ayodhya][8], India, but there are no records of this foreign voyage and marriage in Indo-Aryan history. This theory is based on 1. phonetic similarity, and 2. the twin fish symbol, but both theories don't seem to hold up.&#xA;&#xA;In ancient times the city was called [Saketa][9], not Ayodhya, but the later name did exist in Medieval times when the Chronicle was written.&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][10]][10]&#xA;&#xA;The twin fish symbol, as seen here on a gate to the tomb of King Suro, was used as the emblem of his descendants the [Gim clan of Gimhae][11].&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][12]][12]&#xA;&#xA;The Indian state of Uttar Pradesh (which includes the city of Ayodhya) uses twin fish symbology but:&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][13]][13]&#xA;&#xA;This [Emblem of Uttar Pradesh][14] was [designed in 1916][15] by the Royal Society in the United Kingdom for the (then) United Provinces of Agra and Oudh, and the pair of Matsya fish  represented the former Muslim rulers of Oudh. &#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][16]][16]&#xA;&#xA;The [Nawab of Oudh][17] themselves had **a single fish symbol**, but they were an 18th and 19th Century power.&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][18]][18]&#xA;&#xA;So that theory seems fundamentally flawed.&#xA;&#xA;There are two other theories as to her origin. Either that she came from the [Ayutthaya Kingdom][19] of Thailand -- another theory that seems flawed because the Thai city was not founded until 1350 CE, after the composition of Samguk Yusa. &#xA;&#xA;Or, that she was Tamil, from [Ayi][20], a vassal state of the [Pandya Kingdom][21] in present-day [Tamil Nadu, India][22]. The area is today's [Kanyakumari][23].&#xA;&#xA;The ancient Tamil [Pandyan Dynasty][24] ruled from 300 BCE–1650 CE and had a [Twin Fish Flag and Emblem][25]:&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][26]][26]&#xA;[![enter image description here][27]][27]&#xA;[![enter image description here][28]][28]&#xA;&#xA;Kanyakumari is said to have been called Ayuta in ancient times, and the Tamil and Korean language and cultures [are said][29] to have commonalities.&#xA;&#xA;It seems most likely to me that the Tamil theory is the strongest.&#xA;&#xA;Was she Tamil or Indo-Aryan?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; **Notes**&#xA;&#xA;&gt; There are quite a few interesting Quora discussions on the topic: [Such as this][30].&#xA;&#xA;&gt; An interesting mitochondrial DNA test from the Royal Gaya tombs is talked about [in this article][31], showing maternal DNA traceable to South or South East Asian ethnic groups like Indian, Malaysian or Thai.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; “Archaeological evidence indicates that the people of [Tamna][32] [of Jeju Island] were engaging in active trade with Han Dynasty China and Yayoi Japan, South-east-asian nations, with the Tamil Chola dynasty, as well as mainland Korea, by the 1st century AD.” So Tamil-Korean trade links have existed from ancient times.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://enjoy-gimhae.org/en/수로왕릉비_영어/?ckattempt=1&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samguk_sagi&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/I6R99.jpg&#xA;  [4]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heo_Hwang-ok&#xA;  [5]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suro_of_Geumgwan_Gaya&#xA;  [6]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samguk_yusa&#xA;  [7]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_of_Heo_Hwang-ok,_Ayodhya&#xA;  [8]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayodhya&#xA;  [9]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saket&#xA;  [10]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/VPAUk.jpg&#xA;  [11]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gim_clan_of_Gimhae&#xA;  [12]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/j9wZp.jpg&#xA;  [13]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/TmVHi.jpg&#xA;  [14]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emblem_of_Uttar_Pradesh&#xA;  [15]: https://m.timesofindia.com/city/lucknow/The-emblem-story/articleshow/201009.cms&#xA;  [16]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/xCfE8.jpg&#xA;  [17]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nawab_of_Awadh&#xA;  [18]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/s5xgn.jpg&#xA;  [19]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayutthaya_Kingdom&#xA;  [20]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ay_kingdom&#xA;  [21]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandya_Kingdom&#xA;  [22]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_Nadu&#xA;  [23]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanyakumari&#xA;  [24]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandyan_dynasty&#xA;  [25]: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Twin_fish_flag_of_Pandyas.svg&#xA;  [26]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/8IXZr.jpg&#xA;  [27]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/mSDpC.jpg&#xA;  [28]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MjDMi.jpg&#xA;  [29]: https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/m.timesofindia.com/city/chennai/Korean-envoy-proud-of-his-Tamil-links/amp_articleshow/53277831.cms&#xA;  [30]: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-relationship-of-Princess-Heo-Hwang-Ok-with-India&#xA;  [31]: https://m.economictimes.com/south-koreans-may-have-indian-genes/amp_articleshow/823181.cms&#xA;  [32]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamna" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17673" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5312" RevisionGUID="4b5174b2-26b0-4349-9559-03482528dde2" CreationDate="2018-12-08T16:10:18.187" UserId="5431" Comment="added 103 characters in body" Text="&gt; This question has two parts. &#xA;&#xA;&gt; **1. Did Queen Heo exist?**&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any evidence that Queen Heo was a historical figure and not just a legend?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any proof that her [tomb in Korea][1] really houses her body?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Does she appear in the [Samguk Sagi][2] or any other historical records?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any archaeological or other tangible evidence for her existence?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; **2. Where did she come from?**&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is it more likely that she was Indo-Aryan or Tamil (or Thai)?&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xA;&#xA;*Photo from Tomb in Gimhae, Korea, kindly provided by Professor Emeritus KIM Byung-Mo, senior anthropologist from Hanyang University, author of &quot;Heo Hwang-ok Route: From India to Gaya of Korea&quot;*&#xA;&#xA;Queen [Heo Hwang-ok][4] was the wife of King [Suro of Geumgwan Gaya][5] (death 199 AD).&#xA;&#xA;According to the 13th Century [Samguk Yusa (Memorabilia of the Three Kingdoms)][6] Chronicle she was a Princess of the &quot;Ayuta Kingdom&quot;, said to be a distant country. &#xA;&#xA;It is commonly (and [officially][7]) held to refer to [Ayodhya][8], India, but there are no records of this foreign voyage and marriage in Indo-Aryan history. This theory is based on 1. phonetic similarity, and 2. the twin fish symbol, but both theories don't seem to hold up.&#xA;&#xA;In ancient times the city was called [Saketa][9], not Ayodhya, but the later name did exist in Medieval times when the Chronicle was written.&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][10]][10]&#xA;&#xA;The twin fish symbol, as seen here on a gate to the tomb of King Suro, was used as the emblem of his descendants the [Gim clan of Gimhae][11].&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][12]][12]&#xA;&#xA;The Indian state of Uttar Pradesh (which includes the city of Ayodhya) uses twin fish symbology but:&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][13]][13]&#xA;&#xA;This [Emblem of Uttar Pradesh][14] was [designed in 1916][15] by the Royal Society in the United Kingdom for the (then) United Provinces of Agra and Oudh, and the pair of Matsya fish  represented the former Muslim rulers of Oudh. &#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][16]][16]&#xA;&#xA;The [Nawab of Oudh][17] themselves had **a single fish symbol**, but they were an 18th and 19th Century power.&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][18]][18]&#xA;&#xA;So that theory seems fundamentally flawed.&#xA;&#xA;There are two other theories as to her origin. Either that she came from the [Ayutthaya Kingdom][19] of Thailand -- another theory that seems flawed because the Thai city was not founded until 1350 CE, after the composition of Samguk Yusa. &#xA;&#xA;Or, that she was Tamil, from [Ayi][20], a vassal state of the [Pandya Kingdom][21] in present-day [Tamil Nadu, India][22]. The area is today's [Kanyakumari][23].&#xA;&#xA;The ancient Tamil [Pandyan Dynasty][24] ruled from 300 BCE–1650 CE and had a [Twin Fish Flag and Emblem][25]:&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][26]][26]&#xA;[![enter image description here][27]][27]&#xA;[![enter image description here][28]][28]&#xA;&#xA;Kanyakumari is said to have been called Ayuta in ancient times, and the Tamil and Korean language and cultures [are said][29] to have commonalities.&#xA;&#xA;It seems most likely to me that the Tamil theory is the strongest.&#xA;&#xA;Was she Tamil or Indo-Aryan?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; **Notes**&#xA;&#xA;&gt; There are quite a few interesting Quora discussions on the topic: [Such as this][30].&#xA;&#xA;&gt; An interesting mitochondrial DNA test from the Royal Gaya tombs is talked about [in this article][31] ([source][32], kindly provided by sempaiscuba), showing maternal DNA traceable to South or South East Asian ethnic groups like Indian, Malaysian or Thai.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; “Archaeological evidence indicates that the people of [Tamna][33] [of Jeju Island] were engaging in active trade with Han Dynasty China and Yayoi Japan, South-east-asian nations, with the Tamil Chola dynasty, as well as mainland Korea, by the 1st century AD.” So Tamil-Korean trade links have existed from ancient times.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://enjoy-gimhae.org/en/수로왕릉비_영어/?ckattempt=1&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samguk_sagi&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/I6R99.jpg&#xA;  [4]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heo_Hwang-ok&#xA;  [5]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suro_of_Geumgwan_Gaya&#xA;  [6]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samguk_yusa&#xA;  [7]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_of_Heo_Hwang-ok,_Ayodhya&#xA;  [8]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayodhya&#xA;  [9]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saket&#xA;  [10]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/VPAUk.jpg&#xA;  [11]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gim_clan_of_Gimhae&#xA;  [12]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/j9wZp.jpg&#xA;  [13]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/TmVHi.jpg&#xA;  [14]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emblem_of_Uttar_Pradesh&#xA;  [15]: https://m.timesofindia.com/city/lucknow/The-emblem-story/articleshow/201009.cms&#xA;  [16]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/xCfE8.jpg&#xA;  [17]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nawab_of_Awadh&#xA;  [18]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/s5xgn.jpg&#xA;  [19]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayutthaya_Kingdom&#xA;  [20]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ay_kingdom&#xA;  [21]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandya_Kingdom&#xA;  [22]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_Nadu&#xA;  [23]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanyakumari&#xA;  [24]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandyan_dynasty&#xA;  [25]: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Twin_fish_flag_of_Pandyas.svg&#xA;  [26]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/8IXZr.jpg&#xA;  [27]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/mSDpC.jpg&#xA;  [28]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MjDMi.jpg&#xA;  [29]: https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/m.timesofindia.com/city/chennai/Korean-envoy-proud-of-his-Tamil-links/amp_articleshow/53277831.cms&#xA;  [30]: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-relationship-of-Princess-Heo-Hwang-Ok-with-India&#xA;  [31]: https://m.economictimes.com/south-koreans-may-have-indian-genes/amp_articleshow/823181.cms&#xA;  [32]: http://mengnews.joins.com/view.aspx?aid=2457473&#xA;  [33]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamna" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17675" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5124" RevisionGUID="f1096ea7-5d28-479d-a3ae-f9079226c984" CreationDate="2018-12-09T06:42:34.907" UserId="5386" Comment="deleted 5 characters in body" Text="As far as if they do bleed, yes they do:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In a passage of the Book of the Dead, Ra cuts himself, and his blood transforms into two intellectual personifications: Hu, or authority, and Sia, or mind.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; -[Ra, As creator][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is highly unlikely that they bled an ichor equivalent otherwise we would've most likely read about it. But as far as bleeding a liquid, in this case blood, yes they do, or at least Ra does.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra#As_creator" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17676" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5316" RevisionGUID="ec2bf59d-e219-49ff-8c68-0d772705ecae" CreationDate="2018-12-10T04:05:15.377" UserId="2892" Text="The Wonder Woman (2017) mythology is based on the decline of mankind marked by a series of ages, the [Ages of Man][1].  Hesiod wrote about this first:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; First of all the deathless gods who dwell on Olympus made a golden race of mortal men who lived in the time of Cronos when he was reigning in heaven... They dwelt in ease and peace upon their lands with many good things. &#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Works and Days 109 ff.][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;becomes&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Then they who dwell on Olympus made a second generation which was of silver and less noble by far. &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[ibid.][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;becomes&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Zeus the Father made a third generation of mortal men, a [brazen][1] race, sprung from ash-trees ; and it was in no way equal to the silver age, but was terrible and strong. **They loved the lamentable works of Ares** and deeds of violence;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[ibid.][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The film gets this right in that it is love of Ares/war that war is a major element of the decline. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interesting also is the next generation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zeus the son of Cronos made yet another, the fourth, upon the fruitful earth, which was nobler and more righteous, a god-like race of hero-men who are called demi-gods, the race before our own, throughout the boundless earth. Grim war and dread battle destroyed a part of them, some in the land of Cadmus at seven-gated Thebes when they fought for the flocks of Oedipus, and some, when it had brought them in ships over the great sea gulf to Troy for rich-haired Helen's sake: there death's end enshrouded a part of them. But to the others father Zeus the son of Cronos gave a living and an abode apart from men, and made them dwell at the ends of earth. And they live untouched by sorrow in the islands of the blessed along the shore of deep-swirling Ocean, happy heroes for whom the grain-giving earth bears honey-sweet fruit flourishing thrice a year, far from the deathless gods, and Cronos rules over them; for the father of men and gods released him from his bonds. &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[ibid.][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An islands *&quot;untouched by sorrow&quot;* certainly sounds like the depiction of [Themyscira][4], and *&quot;Cronos rules over them; for the father of men and gods released him from his bonds&quot;* is suggestive of immortality, an attribute of the Amazons who dwell there. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, in the ancient canon, it is Zeus himself who is mankind's main antagonist:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Prometheus had a son Deucalion. He reigning in the regions about Phthia, married Pyrrha, the daughter of Epimetheus and Pandora, the first woman fashioned by the gods. And when Zeus would destroy the men of the Bronze Age, Deucalion by the advice of Prometheus constructed a chest, and having stored it with provisions he embarked in it with Pyrrha. But Zeus by pouring heavy rain from heaven flooded the greater part of Greece, so that all men were destroyed, except a few who fled to the high mountains.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Bibliotheca (Apollodorus) 1.7.2][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;so Ares in this role would seem to be an innovation--it is certainly consistent with his character as the [god of war][6]. This can be taken as a metaphor for the extinction-level weapons [(MAD)][7] that are a unique characteristic of our era, and WWI as the [&quot;war to end all wars&quot;][8].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Man as the instrument of his own destruction, from the standpoint of the species, is a common characteristic of many modern mythologies, including [Skynet][9] and [Zombies][10].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_Man#Hesiod's_Five_Ages&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0132%3Acard%3D109&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0132%3Acard%3D140&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Themyscira_(DC_Comics)&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D7%3Asection%3D2&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ares&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.npr.org/2011/08/11/138823855/the-human-toll-of-the-war-to-end-all-wars&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skynet_(Terminator)&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombie_apocalypse" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17677" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5316" RevisionGUID="0a26e22e-80d8-4efc-981f-f807faccbebd" CreationDate="2018-12-10T04:15:07.380" UserId="2892" Comment="added 42 characters in body" Text="The Wonder Woman (2017) mythology is based on the decline of mankind marked by a series of ages, the [Ages of Man][1].  Hesiod wrote about this first:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; First of all the deathless gods who dwell on Olympus made a golden race of mortal men who lived in the time of Cronos when he was reigning in heaven... They dwelt in ease and peace upon their lands with many good things. &#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Works and Days 109 ff.][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;becomes&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Then they who dwell on Olympus made a second generation which was of silver and less noble by far. &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[ibid.][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;becomes&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Zeus the Father made a third generation of mortal men, a [brazen][1] race, sprung from ash-trees ; and it was in no way equal to the silver age, but was terrible and strong. **They loved the lamentable works of Ares** and deeds of violence;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[ibid.][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The film gets this right in that it is love of Ares/war that war is a major element of the decline. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interesting also is the next generation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zeus the son of Cronos made yet another, the fourth, upon the fruitful earth, which was nobler and more righteous, a god-like race of hero-men who are called demi-gods, the race before our own, throughout the boundless earth. Grim war and dread battle destroyed a part of them, some in the land of Cadmus at seven-gated Thebes when they fought for the flocks of Oedipus, and some, when it had brought them in ships over the great sea gulf to Troy for rich-haired Helen's sake: there death's end enshrouded a part of them. But to the others father Zeus the son of Cronos gave a living and an abode apart from men, and made them dwell at the ends of earth. And they live untouched by sorrow in the islands of the blessed along the shore of deep-swirling Ocean, happy heroes for whom the grain-giving earth bears honey-sweet fruit flourishing thrice a year, far from the deathless gods, and Cronos rules over them; for the father of men and gods released him from his bonds. &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[ibid.][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An islands *&quot;untouched by sorrow&quot;* certainly sounds like the depiction of [Themyscira][4], and *&quot;Cronos rules over them; for the father of men and gods released him from his bonds&quot;* is suggestive of immortality, an attribute of the Amazons who dwell there. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, in the ancient canon, it is Zeus himself who is mankind's main antagonist:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Prometheus had a son Deucalion. He reigning in the regions about Phthia, married Pyrrha, the daughter of Epimetheus and Pandora, the first woman fashioned by the gods. And when Zeus would destroy the men of the Bronze Age, Deucalion by the advice of Prometheus constructed a chest, and having stored it with provisions he embarked in it with Pyrrha. But Zeus by pouring heavy rain from heaven flooded the greater part of Greece, so that all men were destroyed, except a few who fled to the high mountains.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Bibliotheca (Apollodorus) 1.7.2][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;so Ares in this role would seem to be an innovation--it is certainly consistent with his character as the [god of war][6]. This can be taken as a metaphor for the extinction-level weapons [(MAD)][7] that are a unique characteristic of our era, and WWI as the [&quot;war to end all wars&quot;][8].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Man as the instrument of his own destruction, from the standpoint of the species, is a common characteristic of many modern mythologies, including [Skynet][9] and [Zombies][10].  Ares merely provides us the tools. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_Man#Hesiod's_Five_Ages&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0132%3Acard%3D109&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0132%3Acard%3D140&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Themyscira_(DC_Comics)&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D7%3Asection%3D2&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ares&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.npr.org/2011/08/11/138823855/the-human-toll-of-the-war-to-end-all-wars&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skynet_(Terminator)&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombie_apocalypse" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17678" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5290" RevisionGUID="3a130f23-9c71-4b65-bef8-38021a22d917" CreationDate="2018-12-10T04:16:44.467" UserId="2892" Comment="added 5 characters in body" Text="In the beginning of the 2017 film Wonder Woman, Diana aka Wonder Woman, is read a story by her mom, Queen Hippolyta, supposedly corresponding to Queen Hippolyta of Greek mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story begins:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Long ago, when time was new...&#xD;&#xA;...and all of history&#xD;&#xA;was still a dream...&#xD;&#xA;...the gods ruled the earth.&#xD;&#xA;Zeus king among them.&#xD;&#xA;Zeus created beings over&#xD;&#xA;which the Gods would rule.&#xD;&#xA;Beings born in his image...&#xD;&#xA;...fair and good,&#xD;&#xA;strong and passionate.&#xD;&#xA;He called his creation &quot;Man&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;And mankind was good.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question is about the next parts of the story:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. &gt; But Zeus' son.. grew&#xD;&#xA;envious of mankind...&#xD;&#xA;...and sought to corrupt&#xD;&#xA;his father's creation.&#xD;&#xA;This was Ares,&#xD;&#xA;the God of War.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. &gt; Ares poisoned men's hearts&#xD;&#xA;with jealousy and suspicion.&#xD;&#xA;He turned them against&#xD;&#xA;one another...&#xD;&#xA;...and war ravaged the Earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. &gt; So, the gods created&#xD;&#xA;us, the Amazons...&#xD;&#xA;...to influence men's&#xD;&#xA;hearts with love...&#xD;&#xA;...and restore&#xD;&#xA;peace to the Earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Transcript is from [Springfield! Springfield!][1].*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I cannot find anything like these on the Wiki pages for [Ares][2] or [Amazons][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does the DC mythology as described by DC Hippolyta differ from Greek mythology in these aspects?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. You may include elaborations to ultimately answer the title question instead of just the question above, but please use spoiler tags especially if, oh I don't know, Hippolyta was wrong or lying or something. I just wanna know how different the 3 aforementioned statements are from actual Greek mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. I use 'different' instead of 'wrong' or 'inaccurate' to treat DC mythology as a [definition][4] instead of a something that is supposed to mimic Greek mythology but fails to do so.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/movie_script.php?movie=wonder-woman-2017&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ares&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazons&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://matheducators.stackexchange.com/questions/13700/in-what-curricula-are-rectangles-defined-so-as-to-exclude-squares" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17679" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5241" RevisionGUID="ca150ba1-6514-4c7d-841f-56e7332a82bd" CreationDate="2018-12-10T10:01:30.313" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="17680" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5239" RevisionGUID="b201c59b-56fa-4b99-ad9b-22bff4b5d091" CreationDate="2018-12-10T11:00:32.760" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="17681" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5317" RevisionGUID="ac70ca18-7495-4d86-a0d8-a2e6f83a2817" CreationDate="2018-12-10T18:43:31.617" UserId="2892" Text="My sense is the Smurfs were probably inspired by **Brigadoon**, a very famous Broadway musical ([Lerner &amp; Loewe][1]) that was adapted into a very famous film starring [Gene Kelly][2] and [Cyd Charisse][3].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  The story involves two American tourists who stumble upon Brigadoon, a mysterious Scottish village that appears for only one day every 100 years. &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Brigadoon (wiki)][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The name Brigadoon derives from the real [Brig o' Doon][5], a bridge near Alloway, Scotland, and a feature of Robert Burns' folkloric poem [Tam o' Shanter][6]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's possible the Brigadoon story derives from folktale, but I'm not fining any reliable online sources. However, I found an excerpt attributed (without specific citation) to a book *[Lost Lands, Forgotten Realms: Sunken Continents, Vanished Cities, and the Kingdoms That History Misplaced][7]* which reads: “the spell that was cast over Brigadoon was put in place to protect it from advancing English Redcoats during the Jacobite Rebellion.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lerner_and_Loewe&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Kelly&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyd_Charisse&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigadoon&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brig_o%27_Doon&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tam_o%27_Shanter_(poem)&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/757443.Lost_Lands_Forgotten_Realms" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17682" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5317" RevisionGUID="2b787303-94e3-4267-9232-aa2db693b1ff" CreationDate="2018-12-10T21:23:42.137" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 15 characters in body" Text="My sense is the Smurfs were probably inspired by **Brigadoon**, a famous Broadway musical ([Lerner &amp; Loewe][1]) that was adapted into a very famous film starring [Gene Kelly][2] and [Cyd Charisse][3].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  The story involves two American tourists who stumble upon Brigadoon, a mysterious Scottish village that appears for only one day every 100 years. &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Brigadoon (wiki)][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The name Brigadoon derives from the real [Brig o' Doon][5], a bridge near Alloway, Scotland, and a feature of Robert Burns' folkloric poem [Tam o' Shanter][6]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's possible the Brigadoon story derives from folktale, but I'm not finding any reliable online sources. I did an excerpt attributed (without specific citation) to a book *[Lost Lands, Forgotten Realms: Sunken Continents, Vanished Cities, and the Kingdoms That History Misplaced][7]* which reads: “the spell that was cast over Brigadoon was put in place to protect it from advancing English Redcoats during the Jacobite Rebellion.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lerner_and_Loewe&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Kelly&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyd_Charisse&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigadoon&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brig_o%27_Doon&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tam_o%27_Shanter_(poem)&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/757443.Lost_Lands_Forgotten_Realms" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17683" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5318" RevisionGUID="1cb3b13e-1fd8-40fa-8cba-a8f04fc769d9" CreationDate="2018-12-11T02:19:05.183" UserId="2892" Text="Awesome question!  (We don't see enough Appalachian folklore:)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The **Welcome Stretcher** might well be a descendent of [Procrustes][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sixth, [Theseus] slew Damastes, whom some call [Polypemon][2]. He had his dwelling beside the road, and made up two beds, one small and the other big; and offering hospitality to the passers-by, he laid the short men on the big bed and stretched them, to make them fit the bed; but the tall men he laid on the little bed and sawed off the portions of the body that projected beyond it.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Apollodorus, *Epitome*; I.4][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Offhand I can't think of a canonical creature that whomps things with it's tail, but Greek mythology certainly has a famous giant beast: the [Erymanthian Boar][4], so **Maul Tail** is definitely a spiritual descendent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The **Bloody Bones** is *crazy* specific, and you don't generally get that level of detail in the old texts.  The bloodiness reminded me more of an Aztec god, [Mictlāntēcutli][5]: *&quot;depicted as a blood-spattered skeleton or a person wearing a toothy skull. Although his head was typically a skull, his eye sockets did contain eyeballs. His headdress was shown decorated with owl feathers and paper banners and he wore a necklace of human eyeballs, while his earspools were made from human bones.&quot;*  (Note that it's someone else's skull he is wearing;)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procrustes&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DEpitome%3Abook%3DE%3Achapter%3D1%3Asection%3D4#note1&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0067%3Achapter%3D11%3Asection%3D1&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erymanthian_Boar&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mictl%C4%81nt%C4%93cutli" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17684" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5319" RevisionGUID="a083f29a-a9de-4492-a8c0-7d2d7553f38f" CreationDate="2018-12-11T07:34:01.487" UserId="666" Text="This sounds reminiscent of [Vineta][1], a city on the coast of the Baltic sea, which was supposedly flooded as punishment for the inhabitants' ungodly ways. Some versions of the story have the city reappear at intervals, either by rising from the bottom of the sea, or just by being visible to seafarers. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The city is linked in the original manuscripts with the Viking stronghold [Jomsborg][2], which supposedly housed an unusually belligerent group of Vikings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story of Vineta has been used by several modern authors. One retelling can be found in Selma Lagerlöf's [*The wonderful Adventures of Nils*][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vineta&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jomsborg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wonderful_Adventures_of_Nils" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17686" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="4848" RevisionGUID="aab58b57-6824-43f5-a0bf-f1423c3a17f3" CreationDate="2018-12-12T08:47:45.587" UserId="111" Comment="edited tags" Text="|hindu|interpretation|translation|persian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17688" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5228" RevisionGUID="bbd47ed4-4e7f-4fa2-9023-0ec068907662" CreationDate="2018-12-13T01:47:06.260" UserId="2892" Comment="edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|reference-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17689" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5235" RevisionGUID="d6ac2ebd-b21c-4ade-8533-fe2fdbbdd5d0" CreationDate="2018-12-13T02:02:53.117" UserId="2892" Comment="slight edits to cite the works. (I couldn't find any information on Leeming or a reviews of creation myths, so I just noted that it is an encyclopedia.)  Also redirected the non-pdf links to goodreads." Text="A few suggestions:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Structural Study of Myth (Levi-Strauss, 1955)][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Patterns in Comparative Folklore (Eliade, 1948)][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Sacred Narrative: Readings in the Theory of Myth (University of California Press, 1984)][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Creation Myths of the World (Encyclopedia, Two Volume)][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://people.ucsc.edu/~ktellez/levi-strauss.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7724944-creation-myths-of-the-world-2-volumes&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1520617.Sacred_Narrative&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/778574.Patterns_in_Comparative_Religion" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17690" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5228" RevisionGUID="da866bfd-fed3-4d08-bacc-65317e060de5" CreationDate="2018-12-13T02:03:51.037" UserId="2892" Comment="edited tags" Text="|reference-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17693" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5149" RevisionGUID="39566b5f-2252-4d66-a388-8b76d2fa4c9d" CreationDate="2018-12-14T08:01:50.383" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="17694" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5321" RevisionGUID="e7be9c4e-b7b6-4f20-a4af-a66333239818" CreationDate="2018-12-14T18:59:08.883" UserId="5066" Text="There are basically three places to go after you die:&#xD;&#xA;Valhalla: The Aesir paradise&#xD;&#xA;Vanaheim: The Vanir paradise&#xD;&#xA;Helheim: The common Hell&#xD;&#xA;The dead who die in glorious battle are sent to either Valhalla or Vahaheim (they are divided equally between the Aesir and the Vanir). There, they live in absolute Viking comfort, feasting and sparring, until Ragnarok, when they march out with Odin and the other gods to face Loki and his armies.&#xD;&#xA;The dishonorable dead, on the other hand, are sent to Helheim, where they are condemned to a meaningless existence.&#xD;&#xA;So, to answer your question, Odin does not 'send' anyone to Helheim. Non-warriors go to Helheim, the best of the warriors come to him." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17695" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5322" RevisionGUID="935b8ce2-beb8-4fec-9707-6712b192938b" CreationDate="2018-12-14T22:06:44.270" UserId="4142" Text="**Naranath Bhranthan** appears to be a figure from medieval Indian tradition, but except for some repeats of&lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naranath_Bhranthan&quot;&gt; the wikipedia article&lt;/a&gt;  I have not been able to find anything worth commenting. When and where do the stories about him start? A resemblance with &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus&quot;&gt;Sysiphus&lt;/a&gt; is currently noted but is there some elaboration on it? &#xD;&#xA;One can guess also about some astronomical connection as he is the son of an astrologer and his story hints at a cyclicity and time (i.e. kala or Kali or Death). Any suggestions about related writings would be appreciated." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17696" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5322" RevisionGUID="935b8ce2-beb8-4fec-9707-6712b192938b" CreationDate="2018-12-14T22:06:44.270" UserId="4142" Text="Naranath Bhranthan, earliest mentions and sources?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17697" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5322" RevisionGUID="935b8ce2-beb8-4fec-9707-6712b192938b" CreationDate="2018-12-14T22:06:44.270" UserId="4142" Text="|india|reference-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17703" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5325" RevisionGUID="31eea7d8-6783-4099-81ee-448082cfdeab" CreationDate="2018-12-16T17:08:23.733" UserId="5609" Text="Why is it that the gods used flooding to kill humans? Why not fire or a plague? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17704" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5325" RevisionGUID="31eea7d8-6783-4099-81ee-448082cfdeab" CreationDate="2018-12-16T17:08:23.733" UserId="5609" Text="Why did the gods use flooding to wipe out the human race?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17705" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5325" RevisionGUID="31eea7d8-6783-4099-81ee-448082cfdeab" CreationDate="2018-12-16T17:08:23.733" UserId="5609" Text="|flood-myth|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17708" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5239" RevisionGUID="c445f8ab-4621-4189-a812-3faf9df6dff8" CreationDate="2018-12-17T18:12:20.400" UserDisplayName="user5459" Comment="added 254 characters in body" Text="I remember back when I was young that I saw an episode of Smurfs featuring a castle that disappears and reappears each few centuries and when, more recently, I thought about the whole concept of something disappearing and reappearing like this I became somewhat interested in stories with it. So are there any such stories and where can I find them?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;EDIT: By disappearance I mean vanishing into thin air in such a way that something no longer is anywhere in this world (not even behind fog/mist, under water or hidden in general). It's seemingly non-existent or in some kind of &quot;Nothingness&quot; area." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17709" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5228" RevisionGUID="574bed0a-b217-409b-92fe-beef8e423cc0" CreationDate="2018-12-17T18:49:28.083" UserDisplayName="user5459" Comment="added 290 characters in body" Text="Is there a particular book (from a trustworthy source of course) I can see/buy or website(s) (preferably academic, that legally allow(s) non-academics access to this information)?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Edit: Initially, I had in mind myths about ways through which humanity is taught civilization (e.g. a deity teaching humans laws, how to hunt, work and laying the foundation of city-living in general) but I guess I'll also accept the additional information this question seems to ask for." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17710" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5228" RevisionGUID="5ed484c2-897e-4fb5-b7fd-c40ac45155b6" CreationDate="2018-12-17T19:17:10.157" UserDisplayName="user5459" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body" Text="Is there a particular book (from a trustworthy source of course) I can see/buy or website(s) (preferably academic, that legally allow(s) non-academics access to this information)?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Edit: Initially, I had in mind myths about ways through which humanity is taught civilization (e.g. a deity teaching humans laws, and how to live by laying the foundation of city-living in general) but I guess I'll also accept the additional information this question seems to ask for." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17711" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5326" RevisionGUID="4e66dc2f-1dca-4a46-b6f3-d7d0f197642c" CreationDate="2018-12-19T09:44:59.100" UserId="5640" Text="There is [a category on Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:African_legendary_creatures) dedicated to this subject, and [Mental Floss][1] has a list of 11 rather interesting creatures of African mythology:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt; 1. Grootslang&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Grootslang is an Afrikaans word meaning &quot;great snake.&quot; The monster of that name lives in a cave called the Wonder Hole in the Richtersveld area of South Africa. The story is that the original Grootslang was found to be too powerful, so the gods subdivided the animal into two species: the elephant and the snake. However, a Grootslang or two escaped this fate and reproduced. The monster can grow up to 60 feet long. Supposedly, its cave is full of diamonds, but no one knows for sure because the Grootslang guards it well. The Grootslang pictured was featured on the Cartoon Network series The Secret Saturdays.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2. Inkanyamba&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Inkanyamba is a huge carnivorous eel-like animal in the legends of the Zulu and Xhosa people of South Africa. The ancient legends say Inkanyambas can control the weather. They are said to have fins and/or flippers and grow to tremendous size. There are actually freshwater eels abundant in South Africa that grow to around six feet long, but that pales in comparison to the stories of the Inkanyamba.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 3. Kongamato&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A flying monster called Kongamato in Zambia, Angola, and Congo is described as a flying reptile we may recognize as a pterosaur. It was first described in English by explorer Frank Welland in 1932, although local legend goes back much further. This cryptid lives in rivers and swamps and has a huge wingspan, but no feathers. A similar creature goes by other names in other parts of Africa. Theories on Kongomato sightings range from bad lighting to the possibility that an unknown species may exist in inaccessible places. Of course, the image is familiar to us thanks to Hollywood.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4. Impundulu&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Impundulu or Lightning Bird is a supernatural bird from Pondo, Zulu, and Xhosa folklore. The South African bird is as big as a human and can summon lightning and storms, hence the name. The bird is sometimes a shape shifter that can appear as a human, and sometimes said to be a supernatural familiar that guards a witch or witch doctor. It will attack people and drink their blood. However, parts of the Impundulu or its eggs have medicinal powers. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 5. Adze&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Adze is a vampire in the legends of the Ewe people of Ghana and Togo. It takes the form of a firefly, but if you capture one, it will revert to human appearance. This can be dangerous in itself, because in its human form the adze may attack and eat your organs, but it can be defeated. However, in the insect form, the adze will suck your blood while you sleep and spread disease, which is a possible explanation for malarial outbreaks. Its preferred victims are young children. The victim of an adze becomes a witch who is possessed by the adze’s spirit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 6. Bili Ape&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There are plenty of legends of mysterious unknown ape species in Africa. Many of these cryptids are described as something between a chimpanzee and a gorilla. A ghost ape fitting this description is called Ufiti in Malawi. In other areas it became known as the Bondo Mystery Ape, leading to speculation that there was an unknown species waiting to be discovered. Reports led researchers to believe it was a large chimpanzee species that behaved more like gorillas. Various expeditions tried to find this species in Central Africa since skulls were found near the village of Bili in 1908. In the 21st century, evidence of a large subspecies of chimpanzee was found and the apes were later observed in the Bili forest of the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Now called the Bili Ape, they are classified as a subspecies of chimp.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 7. Gbahali&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Gbahali is a reptilian creature of Liberia, resembling a crocodile. It grows to 30 feet long, has a snout shorter than a croc's, and somewhat longer legs. Although this species is not confirmed by science, it is not considered a legendary monster among Liberian hunters, but a real creature they have caught and eaten. It is possible, however, that descriptions are exaggerated. Witnesses were shown a picture of the extinct animal Postosuchus, and they recognized it as the Gbahali. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 8. Ninki Nanka&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ninki Nanka is a monster that lives in the Gambia River in Gambia. It is a dragon-like creature with the body of a crocodile, the head of a horse (with horns) and a long neck like a giraffe. And it's huge - 30 to 50 feet long! An expedition in 2006 yielded an object said to be a scale from the monster, but it turned out to be non-biological - possibly a piece of celluloid film.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 9. Popobawa&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Popobawa is a fairly recent manifestation reported in Zanzibar and Tanzania. The creature is a demon who appears as a normal human by day, and a one-eyed, bat-winged monster at night. The Popobawa attacks and sodomizes both men and women in the dark of night, and is particularly vicious to those who don't believe in him. Attacks were first reported in 1965 on the island of Pemba. Reports of attacks come every few years, with a large number in 1995 attributed to mass hysteria. Some think that the attacks of the Popobawa can be traced to &quot;waking dreams&quot; or &quot;night terrors,&quot; in which the person experiences hallucinations somewhere in between lucidity and sleep. The name Popobawa in Swahili translates to &quot;bat wing.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 10. Mokèlé-mbèmbé&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Mokèlé-mbèmbé is a cryptid resembling a dinosaur from the Congo River region. The name means &quot;one who stops the flow of rivers&quot; referring to its size. Dozens of expeditions have sought to find this huge creature, but come back with only secondhand accounts and mysterious footprints. The 1995 1985 Disney film Baby is based on the legend of the Mokèlé-mbèmbé.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 11. Tikoloshe&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A Tikoloshe (or Tokoloshe) is an evil-spirited gremlin in Zulu mythology. A shaman may send a Tikoloshe to vex his enemies, causing anything from harmless fright to illness or death. Tikoloshes are described as short hairy humanoid figures that can render themselves invisible by swallowing a pebble - all the better to sneak up on their victims.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://mentalfloss.com/article/12818/11-legendary-monsters-africa" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17712" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5327" RevisionGUID="192d5faf-fda6-42b4-a2b8-18f34b1d4846" CreationDate="2018-12-19T10:06:34.367" UserId="5640" Text="According to [Ancient Origins](https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-myths-legends-europe/leprechauns-end-rainbow-lies-richness-irish-folklore-003920)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Leprechauns are now understood to be the fairy tales of the past and fanciful stories to tell when one sees a rainbow.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm afraid I can't find anything else either.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It may have been associated after Christianity came to Ireland, the rainbow being associated with the end of the great flood as told in the Genesis, and therefore hope and perhaps luck.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The gold pot could be more easily traced&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to William Butler Yeats, the great wealth of these fairies comes from the &quot;treasure-crocks, buried of old in war-time&quot;, which they have uncovered and appropriated. (from [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leprechaun))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;the ['crocks'](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crock_(dishware)) being pots.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Combine the pot of riches with a symbol for luck and one comes across a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Due to rainbows being somewhat common, I would imagine the idea being readily adopted and surviving to this day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17713" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5328" RevisionGUID="c18a4c61-d6e6-4e07-b989-2985c8c8c56d" CreationDate="2018-12-19T10:28:30.043" UserId="5640" Text="[Wikipedia has an article dedicated to floods in mythology.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth#Claims_of_historicity)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From what I understand of the &quot;Claims of historicity&quot; section in the article, there were many great floods in the wake of the last glacial period which would naturally be associated the wrath of the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Plague and large fires would be rarer in the past, with epidemics not occurring very often until larger communities evolved&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There are several changes that may occur in an infectious agent that may trigger an epidemic. These include:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Increased virulence&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Introduction into a novel setting&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Changes in host susceptibility to the infectious agent&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;with bad waste management causing pollution, leading to this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The conditions which govern the outbreak of epidemics include infected food supplies such as contaminated drinking water and the migration of populations of certain animals, such as rats or mosquitoes, which can act as disease vectors. Certain epidemics occur at certain seasons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(both citations from [Epidemic, Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemic))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Fires rarely used to spread very far due to geographical features and regular wildfires, as talked about in [this TEDx talk](https://www.ted.com/talks/paul_hessburg_why_wildfires_have_gotten_worse_and_what_we_can_do_about_it), making them less threatening than floods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I hope this answers your question at least from a scientific point of view." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17714" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5329" RevisionGUID="a26817af-f641-4811-b892-a85261fe3389" CreationDate="2018-12-19T11:38:42.377" UserId="5640" Text="According to [the article on Easter Rabbits from Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_Bunny):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Originating among German Lutherans, the &quot;Easter Hare&quot; originally played the role of a judge, [...]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;the Lutherans being Christian explains the following paragraph&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The hare was a popular motif in medieval church art. In ancient times, it was widely believed (as by Pliny, Plutarch, Philostratus, and Aelian) that the hare was a hermaphrodite. The idea that a hare could reproduce without loss of virginity led to an association with the Virgin Mary, with hares sometimes occurring in illuminated manuscripts and Northern European paintings of the Virgin and Christ Child. It may also have been associated with the Holy Trinity, as in the three hares motif. Eggs, like rabbits and hares, are fertility symbols of antiquity. Since birds lay eggs and rabbits and hares give birth to large litters in the early spring, these became symbols of the rising fertility of the earth at the Vernal Equinox.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This would lead me to the conclusion that it comes from it's old Cristian symbol of fertility, which is celebrated around Easter." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17715" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5330" RevisionGUID="b53cc3f2-69af-44e7-882a-5a566986717a" CreationDate="2018-12-19T11:48:39.313" UserId="5640" Text="[Oxford dictionaries](https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/mytheme) provides us with the following definition:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *In structuralist anthropology and literary criticism*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; each of a set of fundamental generic units of narrative structure (typically involving a relationship between a character, an event, and a theme) from which myths are thought to be constructed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is, in effect, a common ground between different mythological stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Vampires and Selkies for example might be based on a mytheme of shapeshifting.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hades and Nirvana may have the mytheme or the afterlife.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I hope this answers your question." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17716" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5331" RevisionGUID="423de2ef-7af1-4698-b4be-2bea46e31891" CreationDate="2018-12-19T11:55:05.187" UserId="5640" Text="What you are looking for is [the Opus Magnum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnum_opus_(alchemy)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Wikipedia article lists four *stages* for the production:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - *nigredo*, a blackening or melanosis&#xD;&#xA;- *albedo*, a whitening or leucosis&#xD;&#xA;- *citrinitas*, a yellowing or xanthosis&#xD;&#xA;- *rubedo*, a reddening, purpling, or iosis&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What the processes contain is however debated, with various alchemists of the period disagreeing with one another." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17717" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5332" RevisionGUID="56ac0c54-23d1-40d6-bbc3-a92eb9f9b9ad" CreationDate="2018-12-19T12:03:45.890" UserId="5640" Text="[Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/giant) provides the following definition:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Nephilim** (noun)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a biblical race of giants or demigods&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **giant** (noun)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **1** : a legendary humanlike being of great stature and strength&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **2a** : a living being of great size&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **b** : a person of extraordinary powers&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **3** : something unusually large or powerful&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This would imply that a Nephilim would be a type of giant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Should you want more information, please make your answer more specific.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17718" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5333" RevisionGUID="104c1277-2828-4fe9-93d0-136477e761e1" CreationDate="2018-12-19T17:56:39.807" UserId="5646" Text="Like, when they aren't dragging people into the sea or granting wishes. The wikipedia article doesn't describe in much detail about where they reside. Holes? Mountain Tops? Tiny Cottages?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17719" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5333" RevisionGUID="104c1277-2828-4fe9-93d0-136477e761e1" CreationDate="2018-12-19T17:56:39.807" UserId="5646" Text="Where do Leprechauns live?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17720" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5333" RevisionGUID="104c1277-2828-4fe9-93d0-136477e761e1" CreationDate="2018-12-19T17:56:39.807" UserId="5646" Text="|mythical-creatures|folklore|irish|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17721" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5332" RevisionGUID="2a86d816-cc90-4bf6-8a5e-10730a593ae4" CreationDate="2018-12-20T09:30:08.913" UserId="5541" Comment="Changed answer to question" Text="[Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/giant) provides the following definition:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Nephilim** (noun)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a biblical race of giants or demigods&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **giant** (noun)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **1** : a legendary humanlike being of great stature and strength&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **2a** : a living being of great size&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **b** : a person of extraordinary powers&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **3** : something unusually large or powerful&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This would imply that a Nephilim would be a type of giant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Should you want more information, please make your question more specific.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17722" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5332" RevisionGUID="2a86d816-cc90-4bf6-8a5e-10730a593ae4" CreationDate="2018-12-20T09:30:08.913" Comment="Proposed by 5541 approved by 5640 edit id of 1688" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17723" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5330" RevisionGUID="74de3e55-cffb-4eda-95b8-e30ddc1affe3" CreationDate="2018-12-20T09:31:24.970" UserId="5640" Comment="edited body" Text="[Oxford dictionaries](https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/mytheme) provides us with the following definition:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *In structuralist anthropology and literary criticism*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; each of a set of fundamental generic units of narrative structure (typically involving a relationship between a character, an event, and a theme) from which myths are thought to be constructed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is, in effect, a common ground between different mythological stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Vampires and Selkies for example might be based on a mytheme of shapeshifting.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hades and Nirvana may have the mytheme of the afterlife.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I hope this answers your question." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17724" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5334" RevisionGUID="b646ee6d-937b-488f-a1fa-cbb3ef67f28a" CreationDate="2018-12-20T10:01:00.610" UserId="5640" Text="From [livescience.com](https://www.livescience.com/37626-leprechauns.html)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  In his collection of Irish fairy and folk tales, W.B. Yeats offered an 18th-century poem by William Allingham titled &quot;The Lepracaun; Or, Fairy Shoemaker&quot; which describes the sound:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; Lay your ear close to the hill.&#xD;&#xA;Do you not catch the tiny clamour,&#xD;&#xA;Busy click of an elfin hammer,&#xD;&#xA;Voice of the Lepracaun singing shrill&#xD;&#xA;As he merrily plies his trade?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This would imply that the Leprechaun, like many other fey of Irish mythology, lives in hills." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17725" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5335" RevisionGUID="7f91fe76-2fd0-4d88-ac6a-efae787e3654" CreationDate="2018-12-20T10:45:59.830" UserId="5640" Text="The following I found on [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkel-Raute):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Asked about how the Merkel-Raute was introduced as her trademark, Merkel stated that &quot;there was always the question, what to do with your arms, and that's how it came about.&quot; She chose the gesture without having been assisted by a counsellor because &quot;it contains a certain symmetry.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and later on&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When used by her own party (the conservative Christian Democratic Union), the gesture is intended as a political symbol for Merkel's (presumed) unagitated leadership.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This would imply that there is no &quot;meaning&quot; to it, she simply decided that was how she liked keeping her hands and it was then taken on by others, since it is such an unusual gesture. The party uses it as stated above." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17726" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5336" RevisionGUID="89d094c7-8e6d-40bc-8ec4-ab8452c94a51" CreationDate="2018-12-20T12:25:38.283" UserId="5640" Text="The dates mentioned on [Wikipedia's article on the subject](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth#Claims_of_historicity) concerning the historical basis of floods in myths (in chronological order):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. 6600 BC&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It has been postulated that the deluge myth in North America may be based on a sudden rise in sea levels caused by the rapid draining of prehistoric Lake Agassiz at the end of the last Ice Age, about 8,400 years ago.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. 5600 BC&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One of the latest, and quite controversial, hypotheses of long term flooding is the Black Sea deluge hypothesis, which argues for a catastrophic deluge about 5600 BC from the Mediterranean Sea into the Black Sea. This has been the subject of considerable discussion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. 3000 BC&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Another hypothesis is that a meteor or comet crashed into the Indian Ocean around 3000–2800 BC, created the 30-kilometre (19 mi) undersea Burckle Crater, and generated a giant tsunami that flooded coastal lands.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. 2900 BC&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Excavations in Iraq have revealed evidence of localized flooding at Shuruppak (modern Tell Fara, Iraq) and various other Sumerian cities. A layer of riverine sediments, radiocarbon dated to about 2900 BC, interrupts the continuity of settlement, extending as far north as the city of Kish, which took over hegemony after the flood. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. 1600 BC&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Speculation regarding the Deucalion myth has also been introduced, whereby a large tsunami in the Mediterranean Sea, caused by the Thera eruption (with an approximate geological date of 1630–1600 BC), is the myth's historical basis. Although the tsunami hit the South Aegean Sea and Crete, it did not affect cities in the mainland of Greece, such as Mycenae, Athens, and Thebes, which continued to prosper, indicating that it had a local rather than a regionwide effect.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Additionally,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Adrienne Mayor promoted the hypothesis that global flood stories were inspired by ancient observations of seashells and fish fossils in inland and mountain areas. The ancient Greeks, Egyptians, and Romans all documented the discovery of such remains in these locations; the Greeks hypothesized that Earth had been covered by water on several occasions, citing the seashells and fish fossils found on mountain tops as evidence of this history.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I hope this is answers your question or is otherwise informative.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*PS: I recently answered [Why did the gods use flooding to wipe out the human race?](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/5328/5640) which is concerned with a related subject. It may be worth taking a look at.*" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17727" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5337" RevisionGUID="02f282d0-4f7b-4514-b7a3-ec2603108334" CreationDate="2018-12-20T15:04:47.580" UserId="292" Text="I think the answer is that they hide their gold where no one can find it - as an article in [Time magazine][1] puts it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Irish folklore described leprechauns as crotchety, solitary, yet&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mischievous creatures. They were said to be shoemakers who socked away&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their profits in pots at the end of rainbows, or scattered them around&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in mountains, forests, or rocks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It goes on to say that if you try to steal the lephrechaun's gold, they will try to distract you, because they're misers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/03/17/happy-st-patricks-day-a-brief-history-of-leprechauns/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17728" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4847" RevisionGUID="f4d5635b-c7a6-4e1d-8d3a-bad5fc84681b" CreationDate="2018-12-21T00:03:05.667" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="17729" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4731" RevisionGUID="4ce96ddf-9be9-4148-9cfb-af32a8f10ed7" CreationDate="2018-12-21T10:02:38.120" UserId="5640" Comment="Corrected capitalisation of &quot;myth&quot; and &quot;mythology&quot;" Text="History places the flood myths as a culture's way to explain the end of the last ice age. This happened about 10,000 years ago. But this book I'm reading (*The Chronicles of the Imaginarium Geographica, Book 2, The Search for the Red Dragon*) places Deucalion's flood (Greek flood) about 1,600 BC, the beginning of the Bronze Age. And that got me thinking, when (what year, if given) do mythologies place their flood myth? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17730" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4731" RevisionGUID="4ce96ddf-9be9-4148-9cfb-af32a8f10ed7" CreationDate="2018-12-21T10:02:38.120" UserId="5640" Comment="Corrected capitalisation of &quot;myth&quot; and &quot;mythology&quot;" Text="When are the flood myths in mythologies?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17731" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4731" RevisionGUID="4ce96ddf-9be9-4148-9cfb-af32a8f10ed7" CreationDate="2018-12-21T10:02:38.120" Comment="Proposed by 5640 approved by 2807, 108 edit id of 1689" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17732" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5338" RevisionGUID="63ccedfc-caa7-4eec-a260-22deafc25680" CreationDate="2018-12-22T20:22:26.160" UserId="5653" Text="Actually, the ancient people of northern Europe are all related (for all intents and purposes shall be referred to as Nordrs); as are those of the south (the pre migration civilisation/culture known as the Pelasgians in Roman and Greek sources and were their predecessors). One only need to look at and compare myths, language (particularly sound and core words) and art/material culture. It is technically inaccurate in most cases to  claim a connection/ difference bewteen Celtic and Norse/Germano-northern European myth considering the absence of written records during the time of a fully realised, living breathing Celtic pagan tradition before the mass conversion to Christianity and/or interpretatio Romano or the influence of either (this includes Ireland and Wales, from which current mythic texts derive). Despite this, for the discerning scholar, even the surviving myths, folk tales and legends recorded in works such as the Cath Maige Tuired and the Lebor Gabála Érenn of Irish myth, and the Four Branches of the Mabinogi of the Welsh; all of which were written during the Middle Ages (prior to the Norse invasions) and after the Christian conversion, adapted from a muddled and compromised oral tradition stooped in taboo. Nonetheless, they hold much insightful information. Note, the only (potentially) unaffected Celtic cult to survive for quite some time (some claim to this day, though that is not for me to argue) is that of the Driuds, whom it is noted the Danes (Vikings) respected and saw much solidarity. To add to that, it should also be noted that a similar issue details much of 'Germanic', 'Slavic' and 'Uralic' myths and at times, even known gods; due to Christianisation ~ take the Prose Edda as a prime example! All of this does not deny close contact and back and forth influence through time, as the days of the Nordrs and Pelasgians stretch far into prehistory, their true myths becoming subject to mutation as they became the latter tribes we are more familiar with: Pelasgians) Greeks, Italics (including Romans, Etruscans etc.), Thracians, Iberians, Anatolians, Illyrians. Nordrs) Celts, Scandinavians/Norse (N. Germanic), Germans (S. Germanic ~ Anglos, Saxons, Goths etc.), Uralics, Slavs ~ These are just to name those I can remember without inquiry, and is not limited to European peoples, if one observes carefully, the world is full of allusions to the once great &quot;core&quot; cultures of the most distant past (Indo-European is a fallacy, derived from inaccurate reconstruction based on a misunderstanding of linguafranca languages and the koine which may develope from them such as Sanskrit, as being purely original and therefore related via common ancestry) " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17743" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5342" RevisionGUID="ff66d745-39f5-4fe3-8e4d-f105aecd3780" CreationDate="2018-12-28T12:51:27.737" UserId="5659" Text="I think there is some loss in translation as the eyes are supposed to be wide and thin, not large. The earliest mention I can find of Bigfoot being mentioned by Leif Erikson is in sasquatch chronicles forums and the founder of sasquatch chronicles was proven to have completely invented his own encounters, getting the weather and phase of the moon wrong for the dates of his sightings as well as his supposed reporting of the sightings being disputed by the organization he supposedly reported them to, on top of that his own brother and co-host Will Jevning left the show when the discrepancies in his supposed own encounters came to light. That guy remaining on sasquatch chronicles is a charlatan, his fans still rabidly defend him because “he sounds like a nice guy, and seems down to earth” even though his own “experience” with Bigfoot is purely fictional and pretends to be an expert because he reads crap online. So the Leif Erikson fictional addition of seeing sasquatch in Newfoundland has as much merit as the current sasquatch chronicles. That guy does anything for ratings, including adding dogman and orbs and demons and ghosts and werewolves to the guests relating their encounters and even accommodates the truly nutty young earth creationist Biblical Bigfoot camp who believe sasquatch is Caine or Nephilim from the Old Testament... and he even baits them into expanding on their delusional made up sightings “oh yeah Nephilim are pretty common in the suburbs making tree forts and are often seen near demons and angels... tell us more, did you maybe have other possible encounters?”" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17744" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="3306" RevisionGUID="a7ce5518-1374-4327-a766-77ff0e06b6e5" CreationDate="2018-12-28T19:13:23.487" UserId="183" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:183,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;HDE 226868&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="17745" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5343" RevisionGUID="ca984333-cbaf-437d-8375-b199e500ec58" CreationDate="2018-12-29T22:07:13.960" UserId="4271" Text="I just found this term, White Rock, or Leucas, while reading about the Underworld [here][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As men and women die, Hermes leads their souls to the Underworld, past the streams of Oceanus, past the White Rock (Leucas), past the Gates of the Sun and the Land of Dreams, until they reach the Asphodel Fields, where the spirits dwell living the flavourless existence of a shadow or phantom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What does the White Rock mean or symbolize? Is it just a land mark in the Underworld, or does it have some special significance?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.maicar.com/GML/Underworld.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17746" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5343" RevisionGUID="ca984333-cbaf-437d-8375-b199e500ec58" CreationDate="2018-12-29T22:07:13.960" UserId="4271" Text="What is the 'White Rock' in Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17747" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5343" RevisionGUID="ca984333-cbaf-437d-8375-b199e500ec58" CreationDate="2018-12-29T22:07:13.960" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|underworld|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17748" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5344" RevisionGUID="aee3fac6-c32f-4397-8b71-8a7c1660af8a" CreationDate="2018-12-29T22:14:28.527" UserId="4271" Text="Zeus and Hera once had an argument on which gender enjoyed love making more. They called on Tiresias, a mortal that had been both a man and a woman. his answer was this...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Of ten parts a man enjoys one only, but a woman enjoys the full ten parts in her heart.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What does this mean? What are the ten parts?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17749" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5344" RevisionGUID="aee3fac6-c32f-4397-8b71-8a7c1660af8a" CreationDate="2018-12-29T22:14:28.527" UserId="4271" Text="What does Tiresias's answer to the gods mean?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17750" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5344" RevisionGUID="aee3fac6-c32f-4397-8b71-8a7c1660af8a" CreationDate="2018-12-29T22:14:28.527" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|zeus|hera|love|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17751" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5345" RevisionGUID="60b2e8cb-5be0-4186-9b2a-5592d55b2a9e" CreationDate="2018-12-29T22:29:34.670" UserId="4271" Text="&gt; They were all required to drink a measure of the water, and those who were not saved by their good sense, drank more than the measure, and each one as he drank forgot all things.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The above sentence says that a soul in Elysium must drink water from the River Lethe (Forgetfulness) before reincarnating. What happened to those that drank more than &quot;their measure&quot; of water?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17752" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5345" RevisionGUID="60b2e8cb-5be0-4186-9b2a-5592d55b2a9e" CreationDate="2018-12-29T22:29:34.670" UserId="4271" Text="Drinking water from the River Lethe" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17753" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5345" RevisionGUID="60b2e8cb-5be0-4186-9b2a-5592d55b2a9e" CreationDate="2018-12-29T22:29:34.670" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|underworld|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17754" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5346" RevisionGUID="8ba39a4c-6e40-4759-8026-4d9b4a6423d4" CreationDate="2018-12-29T22:53:47.627" UserId="4271" Text="&gt;  Athena blinded the young [Tiresias][1] by covering his eyes with her hands when he surprised her naked. Tiresias' mother, the nymph Chariclo who was dear to Athena and one of her attendants, asked the goddess to restore his sight, but Athena, not being able to do so, cleansed instead his ears in such a way that she caused him to understand the sounds of birds. Athena also gave [Tiresias][1] a staff made of cornel-wood with the help of which he could walk like those who can see.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is also said that Athena did not take the sight of young [Tiresias][1]; as the goddess explained to Chariclo, these were the ***old laws of Cronos***, which inflicted the penalty of blindness on any mortal who beheld an immortal without consent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Notes: Format of paragraph is my own edit. Words of bold text and italicized are my own edit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is the first time I am hearing of the term, &quot;old laws of Cronos.&quot; Where else are they mentioned? What are they?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.maicar.com/GML/Tiresias.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17755" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5346" RevisionGUID="8ba39a4c-6e40-4759-8026-4d9b4a6423d4" CreationDate="2018-12-29T22:53:47.627" UserId="4271" Text="What are the old laws of Cronos?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17756" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5346" RevisionGUID="8ba39a4c-6e40-4759-8026-4d9b4a6423d4" CreationDate="2018-12-29T22:53:47.627" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17757" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="974" RevisionGUID="184b05b8-62e8-4f1a-9224-60e30b973f50" CreationDate="2018-12-29T22:55:55.403" UserId="3315" Comment="image fixed (inlining HTTP images doesn't work anymore); for more info, see https://gist.github.com/Glorfindel83/9d954d34385d2ac2597bbe864466259f" Text="I've delayed answering this question because I've been looking for an explanation of the symbolism behind the complicated manner of Lleu's death. I still haven't a satisfactory explanation from a reputable source, although I'm sure one exists, so this answer is incomplete. However, I think I've answered most of the original question, and I've taken a stab at the symbolism question. If anyone has any additional research, please let me know.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Why Lleu is so difficult to kill?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This story is a *heavily modified* version of the &quot;Tristan and Iseult&quot; archetype, in that there exists a king or ruler or giant who will die when their daughter is married. The ruler attempts to prevent his daughter from being married, but of course she eventually circumvents the ruler and get's married anyway, at which point the ruler dies. This story relates to death but also to rebirth; although the ruler dies, because the daughter marries the ruler's legacy continues, and the husband or son of the daughter replaces the ruler in the mortal world. (A slightly different version also exists: a prophesy says the ruler will die if he has a son, the ruler attempts to not have a son, he has a son anyway, and the son kills his father and takes his father's place.) Of the top of my head, [Perseus][1], [Tristian and Iseult][2], and [Culhwch and Olwen][3] are all examples of this type of story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To quote from [Roger Loomis' review of Math Vab Mathonwy, An Inquiry into the Origins and Development of the Fourth Branch of the Mabingogi][4] (I didn't want to read the entire book):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The chief discovery is the ultimate dependence of Math upon the Irish myth of Balor and Lug for its main outline (pp.  65-112).  Significant is the fact that this myth, surviving most clearly in folktales taken down in the nineteenth century, must have supplied the framework for a story composed as early as the twelfth century.  It is a variant of the widespread formula of the King and His Prophesied Death (pp.  8, 366), of which the Perseus and Oedipus stories furnish familiar examples.  The plot of the famous Irish story may be reconstructed as follows...  Now the Welsh tale is remarkable in that it preserves practically every essential feature of this outline in the right order, but every feature has been recast several times, and all the original cohesion and rationale has been lost.  Math is at pains to preserve the virginity of a damsel, but no reason is offered and the damsel is not his daughter.  The damsel is ravished by stratagem, but nothing is said of her son.  Instead, the woman who takes her place gives birth to a son, Dylan, and he promptly goes to the sea and, instead of drowning, swims like a fish.  But it is not he who becomes the hero of the story but one who develops from the caul or placenta which Dylan's mother lets fall at the time of his birth.  This caul develops into a second child, and upon him are sworn successively the three geasa that were sworn upon Lug: but it is his mother who swears them, and she obviously has no motive.  The way in which she is induced to name him Lleu Llaw Gyffes is obviously reminiscent of the way in which Balor was induced to name his grandson Lug Lamfada.  **Finally, it is not Lleu's grandfather who is slain by a special spear, but Lleu's rival, Gronwy**.  Except that the order remains intact, the elements could hardly have been juggled more drastically.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A common feature in these types of stories is that the father-figure is very difficult to kill, and can only be killed in strange and esoteric ways. Here's an example from Culhwch and Olwen, a story from the same tradition as Math. (The story of Balor and Lug, upon which Math is based upon, also includes a father figure who is hard to kill).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And the third day they returned to the palace. And Yspaddaden Penkawr said to them, &quot;Shoot not at me again unless you desire death. Where are my attendants? Lift up the forks of my eyebrows which have fallen over my eyeballs, that I may see the fashion of my son-in-law.&quot; Then they arose, and, as they did so, Yspaddaden Penkawr took the third poisoned dart and cast it at them. And Kilhwch caught it and threw it vigorously, and wounded him through the eyeball, so that the dart came out at the back of his head. &quot;A cursed ungentle son-in-law, truly! As long as I remain alive, my eyesight will be the worse. Whenever I go against the wind, my eyes will water; and peradventure my head will burn, and I shall have a giddiness every new moon. Cursed be the fire in which it was forged. Like the bite of a mad dog is the stroke of this poisoned iron.&quot; And they went to meat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since Lleu takes the role of the father figure in this rearranged story, it also makes sense that he is hard to kill.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# An attempted explanation of the symbolism behind Lleu's position:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The easiest answer is that the position is the answer to the riddle: he can't be killed &quot;inside or outside,&quot; so he straddles both worlds and becomes vulnerable. However, this doesn't explain why he needs to do this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've done quite a bit of research into the symbolism of Lleu's death, and having read several sources and talked to a few experts, I'm forced to conclude that no agreed upon explanation exists. However, I have seen a few theories, which I outline below:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's important to know that Lleu seems to be associated with the sun. According to [Queen of the Night: Rediscovering the Celtic Moon Goddess][5]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the Mabinogi, Lleu Llaw Gyffes (Bright One of the Skillful Hand) is transformed into an eagle, residing for a period of time in the top of an oak tree. The eagle and the oak are symbols of a solar or celestial deity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found an article that [claims that the position that Lleu can be killed corresponds to something related to astronomy][100] (the hut to the sky, the tub/well to the milky way, the goat represents Capella, and Lleu to the constellation Perseus [Perseus seems to have a foot in the milkyway]). The article seems legit, and is definitely worth considering, but I worry that it doesn't seem to be verified by any academics. Here's a picture of the constellation Perseus (from [AstroPixels.com][7]):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![The constellation Perseus](https://i.stack.imgur.com/xJVc3.jpg)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another explanation (found in an article about Shakespeare!) ties the age of the spear to the creation of a new year (and perhaps to rebirth):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Blodeuwedd and her lover planned to slay her husband, the Welsh hero Lleu Llaw Gyffes; but he could only be killed by a spear forged &quot;in a year of Sundays&quot;; and so Lleu was struck down exactly one year after the plan was conceived. The death of the year equated the death of the husband; either event signals or is signaled by the Queen's or Lady's attachment to another man.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Aguirre, Manuel. [Life, Crown, and Queen: Gertrude and the Theme of Sovereignty][8].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And as a bonus, here's an article that elaborates on the connection between names, transformations, and the difference between Lleu's and Blodeuwedd's metamorphoses:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The metamorphoses of Lleu and Blodeu(w)edd confirm the theory that, in the Fourth Branch, names function to secure both body and identity. The scene in which Lleu spontaneously transforms into an eagle and the earlier scene in which he is named are linked in such a way that his name emerges as a crucial guarantee of human embodiment; by contrast, Blodeu(w)edd is renamed so that her metamorphosis can never be undone.  Having persuaded her husband, Lleu, to reveal how he may be killed, Blodeu(w)edd has Gronw ambush Lleu while he is demonstrating to his wife exactly the point at which he is at his most vulnerable. Gronw’s ambush prompts Lleu’s transformation: “Then Gronw rose up from the hill that is called Brynn Cyfergyr, and he got up on the end of one knee, and cast the poison-spear, and hit [Lleu] in the side, so that the spear shaft leapt from him and the head stayed in him. And then he went flying up in the shape of an eagle, and gave a terrible cry” (Williams 1951, 88). Although the text gives more details about the spear thrust than the metamorphosis, Lleu’s transformation clearly results from the entry of the spearhead into his body. This passage mirrors the episode in which the young Lleu is named. In this scene, disguised, Gwydion brings the boy to visit Aranrhod; when Aranrhod sees the boy hit a wren with surprising precision and comments on his dexterity, saying, “it is with a skilful hand Lleu can be killed only by a single blow from a spear made only during Sunday mass over the course of one year, and he must be neither inside nor outside, neither on horseback nor on foot; the inventive solution to this riddle involves Lleu’s standing with one foot on the edge of a roofed outdoor bathtub, the other on the back of a goat. The actions in both scenes are also described by identical verbs, bwrw (to throw, cast) and medru (to strike). Sheehan that the fair one hit it [ Ys llaw gyffes y medrwys y lleu ef ]” (Williams 1951, 80), Gwydion manipulates her comment to provide a name for his nephew, Lleu Llaw Gyffes (Fair-haired One of the Skilful Hand). Lleu’s name is also the key to his metamorphosis’s reversal. When Gwydion finds the eagle perched in a treetop, he sings three englynion , each time naming Lleu, until the eagle descends from the tree and alights on Gwydion’s knee; Gwydion is then able to strike him with the hutlath “so that he was in his own shape [ rith ]” (Williams 1951, 90). Lleu’s metamorphosis is consistent with those examined above, in that the narrator does not refer to Lleu by name until he is again in his own, human body. Lleu cannot regain his body until he regains his name: it is Gwydion’s ritualized poetic naming of his nephew together with a tap of the hutlath that restores Lleu to human form. Gronw’s skillful striking of Lleu causes Lleu to lose both name and form by reversing the subject positions (active/passive, striker/struck) of the scenario whereby he gained his name&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Sheehan, Sarah, [Matrilineal Subjects: Ambiguity, Bodies, and Metamorphosis in the Fourth Branch of the Mabinogi][9])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseus&#xD;&#xA;[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan_and_Iseult&#xD;&#xA;[3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culhwch_and_Olwen&#xD;&#xA;[4]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/2847153&#xD;&#xA;[5]: https://books.google.com/books?id=1l1yXq4xGHsC&amp;pg=PA153&amp;lpg=PA153&amp;dq=lleu+llaw+gyffes+eagle+symbolism&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=JFo9N9d_Hh&amp;sig=ejmr1zvfmO7oQcar6g4KWDbQjcQ&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=_xmKVcmTGsn2ggSS9IGADA&amp;ved=0CDIQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&amp;q=lleu%20llaw%20gyffes%20eagle%20symbolism&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;[6]: http://mabinogionastronomy.blogspot.com/2015/04/thedeath-of-lleu-llaw-gyffes-here-is.html&#xD;&#xA;[7]: http://astropixels.com/&#xD;&#xA;[8]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/518100&#xD;&#xA;[9]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/591089&#xD;&#xA;[100]: http://mabinogionastronomy.blogspot.com/2015/04/thedeath-of-lleu-llaw-gyffes-here-is.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17758" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="974" RevisionGUID="184b05b8-62e8-4f1a-9224-60e30b973f50" CreationDate="2018-12-29T22:55:55.403" Comment="Proposed by 3315 approved by 2807, 4271 edit id of 1690" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17759" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5342" RevisionGUID="c058a547-aeee-4c5c-a2f3-6ec38af4dd1d" CreationDate="2018-12-29T23:03:42.503" UserId="4271" Comment="I can't tell what you are trying to say, even though I put space between the run on sentences. Please, go back though and amend the information you provided so that the meaning you give is not lost. In other words, please use periods." Text="I think there is some loss in translation as the eyes are supposed to be wide and thin, not large. The earliest mention I can find of Bigfoot being mentioned by Leif Erikson is in sasquatch chronicles forums and the founder of sasquatch chronicles was proven to have completely invented his own encounters, getting the weather and phase of the moon wrong for the dates of his sightings as well as his supposed reporting of the sightings being disputed by the organization he supposedly reported them to, on top of that his own brother and co-host Will Jevning left the show when the discrepancies in his supposed own encounters came to light.  &#xD;&#xA;That guy remaining on sasquatch chronicles is a charlatan, his fans still rabidly defend him because “he sounds like a nice guy, and seems down to earth” even though his own “experience” with Bigfoot is purely fictional and pretends to be an expert because he reads crap online. So the Leif Erikson fictional addition of seeing sasquatch in Newfoundland has as much merit as the current sasquatch chronicles.  &#xD;&#xA;That guy does anything for ratings, including adding dogman and orbs and demons and ghosts and werewolves to the guests relating their encounters and even accommodates the truly nutty young earth creationist Biblical Bigfoot camp who believe sasquatch is Caine or Nephilim from the Old Testament... and he even baits them into expanding on their delusional made up sightings “oh yeah Nephilim are pretty common in the suburbs making tree forts and are often seen near demons and angels... tell us more, did you maybe have other possible encounters?”" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17760" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2" RevisionGUID="fd1e5522-5286-40a5-9803-673146e74775" CreationDate="2018-12-30T00:29:00.427" UserId="4271" Comment="deleted 6 characters in body" Text="I know that the Ancient Greeks built temples for a lot of the children of Cronus, such as the [Temple of Zeus][1] and the [Temple of Hera][2]. Were temples built for all of the children of Cronus, or were they only built for the major ones? If some were left out, is there any indication of why?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Zeus,_Olympia&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Hera,_Olympia" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17761" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5" RevisionGUID="22a8a249-ccef-4546-8604-e650046dc6cb" CreationDate="2018-12-30T00:30:40.523" UserId="4271" Comment="deleted 8 characters in body; edited tags" Text="In the legend of Theseus and the Minotaur, we know that the Minotaur dwelled at the center of the maze built by Daedalus. However, the creature itself (part man, part bull) doesn't appear to show up in any other well-known legends.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was this Minotaur the only being like him, or was he part of a larger &quot;race&quot; of creatures?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17762" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5" RevisionGUID="22a8a249-ccef-4546-8604-e650046dc6cb" CreationDate="2018-12-30T00:30:40.523" UserId="4271" Comment="deleted 8 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|daedalus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17763" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7" RevisionGUID="290cc5f5-ad1b-41a9-98a3-c2cea280da41" CreationDate="2018-12-30T00:42:59.837" UserId="4271" Comment="added 98 characters in body" Text="Many of the Greek gods were [bisexu][1]al. Did Zeus have any male lovers?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.pride.com/gay/2016/9/10/20-greek-gods-who-had-same-sex-relationships" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17764" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5347" RevisionGUID="cbb37cba-7f7e-4aa1-bb2b-8f6422d9c2c2" CreationDate="2018-12-30T01:35:03.187" UserId="5511" Text="This does not refer to a specific set of laws, but echoes Hesiod's [Theogeny](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theogony), the genealogy of the Greek Gods, and the [Gigantomachy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giants_(Greek_mythology)#The_Gigantomachy).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's called an &quot;old&quot; law (the text doesn't actually contain that word, see below) because the decree stem from the time of Cronus' reign, so before Zeus defeated Cronus and created the Greek Pantheon (which includes Pallas Athena). Zeus' laws are described as just in Theogeny whereas Cronus' rule is described as cruel. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As to the apparent contradiction on the punishment, blindness and sight refer to two different things here. In [Calimachus' fifth hymn](https://www.theoi.com/Text/CallimachusHymns2.html#5), Athena blinds Tiresias:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And he stood there speechless; for pain glued his knees and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; helplessness stayed his voice. But the nymph cried: “What has thou&#xD;&#xA;&gt; done to my boy, lady? Is such the friendship of you goddesses? Thou&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hast taken away the eyes of my son. Foolish child! Thou hast seen the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; breast and body of Athena, but the sun thou shalt not see again.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Charilco pleads with Athena, she explains the reason for the punishment, an edict by Cronus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;ἆ καὶ ἅμ᾽ ἀμφοτέραισι φίλον περὶ παῖδα λαβοῖσα &#xD;&#xA;μάτηρ μὲν γοερᾶν οἶτον ἀηδονίδων &#xD;&#xA;ἆγε βαρὺ κλαίοισα, θεὰ δ᾽ ἐλέησεν ἑταίραν &#xD;&#xA;καί νιν Ἀθαναία πρὸς τόδ᾽ ἔλεξεν ἔπος &#xD;&#xA;‘δῖα γύναι, μετὰ πάντα βαλεῦ πάλιν ὅσσα δι᾽ ὀργὰν &#xD;&#xA;εἶπας: ἐγὼ δ᾽ οὔ τοι τέκνον ἔθηκ᾽ ἀλαόν. &#xD;&#xA;οὐ γὰρ Ἀθαναίᾳ γλυκερὸν πέλει ὄμματα παίδων &#xD;&#xA;ρπάζειν: **Κρόνιοι δ᾽ ὧδε λέγοντι νόμοι: &#xD;&#xA;ὅς κε τιν᾽ ἀθανάτων, ὅκα μὴ θεὸς αὐτὸς ἕληται, &#xD;&#xA;ἀθρήσῃ, μισθῶ τοῦτον ἰδεῖν μεγάλω.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Noble lady, take back all the words that thou hast spoken in anger. It&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is not I that made thy child blind. For no sweet thin is it for Athena&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to snatch away the eyes of children. **But the laws of Cronus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; order thus: Whosoever shall behold any of the immortals, when the god&#xD;&#xA;&gt; himself chooses not, at a heavy price shall he behold.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sight refers to Athena's gift of clairvoyance:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Therefore, O comrade, lament not; for to this thy son – for thy sake –&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shall remain many other honours from me. For I will make him a seer to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; be sung of men hereafter, yea, more excellent than any other. He shall&#xD;&#xA;&gt; know the birds – which is of good omen among all the countless birds&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that fly and what birds are of ill-omened flight. Many oracles shall&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he utter to the Boeotians and many unto Cadmus, and to the mighty sons&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Labdacus in later days. Also will I give him a great staff which&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shall guide his feet as he hath need, and I will give him a long term&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17765" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5348" RevisionGUID="9f73a580-9a03-4de1-a7d7-1a2bd260086b" CreationDate="2018-12-30T02:06:59.030" UserId="5511" Text="This is from Appolodorus 3.6.7. It does not refer to specific parts or phases of intercourse. You should read the numbers as percentages, as the translation indicates:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hence, when Hera and Zeus disputed whether the pleasures of love are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; felt more by women or by men, they referred to him for a decision. He&#xD;&#xA;&gt; said that if the pleasures of love **be reckoned at ten**, men enjoy one&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and women nine. Wherefore Hera blinded him, but Zeus bestowed on him&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the art of soothsaying. The saying of Tiresias to Zeus and Hera: &quot;Of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ten parts a man enjoys one only; but a woman enjoys the full ten parts&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in her heart.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the original text, the saying reads:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;τὸ ὑπὸ Τειρεσίου λεχθὲν πρὸς Δία καὶ Ἥραν·&#xD;&#xA;οἴην μὲν μοῖραν δέκα μοιρῶν τέρπεται ἀνήρ,&#xD;&#xA;τὰς δὲ δέκ' ἐμπίπλησι γυνὴ τέρπουσα νόημα.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17766" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5349" RevisionGUID="b039c466-e441-4b7f-808a-b4000552fdf6" CreationDate="2018-12-30T02:30:09.487" UserId="5511" Text="In the Odyssey:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;πὰρ δ’ ἴσαν Ὠκεανοῦ τε ῥοὰς καὶ **Λευκάδα πέτρην** &#xD;&#xA;ἠδὲ παρ’ Ἠελίοιο πύλας καὶ δῆμον ὀνείρων&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And they passed by the streams of Okeanos and the White Rock (the original says &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Leukàs Pétrā**) and past the Gates of the Sun and the District of Dreams.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Leukas is the name of a Greek Island in the Ionian sea. Nowadays it is called[Lefkada](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lefkada)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The likelihood the White Rock refers to this island is corroborated by other texts, like [Menander](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menander)'s Leukadia (The Girl from Leukas): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;οὗ δὴ λέγεται πρώτη Σαπφὼ&#xD;&#xA;τὸν ὑπέρκομπον θηρῶσα Φάον’&#xD;&#xA;οἰστρῶντι πόθῳ ῥῖψαι πέτρας &#xD;&#xA;ἀπὸ τηλεφανοῦς. ἀλλὰ κατ’εὐχὴν&#xD;&#xA;σήν, δέσποτ’ ἄναξ, εὐφημείσθω&#xD;&#xA;τέμενος πέρι Λευκάδος ἀκτῆς&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; where they say that Sappho was the first, hunting down the proud&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Phaon, to throw herself, in her goading desire, from **the rock that shines from afar**.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But now, in accordance with your sacred utterance,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lord king, let there be silence throughout the sacred precinct of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; head-land of Leukas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also in [Anacreon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anacreon):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;ἀρθεὶς δηὖτ’ ἀπὸ **Λευκάδος &#xD;&#xA;πέτρης** ἐς πολιὸν κῦμα κολυμβῶ μεθύων ἔρωτι&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One more time taking off in the air, down from the **White Rock** into&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the dark waves do I dive, intoxicated with lust.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and [Euripides](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euripides)' Cyclops:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;ὡς ἐκπιεῖν γ’ ἂν κύλικα μαινοίμην μίαν&#xD;&#xA;πάντων Κυκλώπων &lt;μὴ&gt; ἀντιδοὺς βοσκήματα&#xD;&#xA;ῥῖψαί τ’ ἐς ἅλμην **Λευκάδος πέτρας** ἄπο&#xD;&#xA;ἅπαξ μεθυσθεὶς καταβαλών τε τὰς ὄφρυς.&#xD;&#xA;ὡς ὅς γε πίνων μὴ γέγηθε μαίνεται&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I would be crazy not to give all the herds of the Cyclopes in return&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for drinking one cup [of that wine] and throw myself from the **white rock**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; into the brine, once I am intoxicated, with eyebrows relaxed.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Whoever is not happy when he drinks is crazy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17767" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5349" RevisionGUID="2b90486e-5b09-4646-951e-4c2b6df3f272" CreationDate="2018-12-30T11:51:47.660" UserId="57" Comment="added 44 characters in body" Text="In the Odyssey:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;πὰρ δ’ ἴσαν Ὠκεανοῦ τε ῥοὰς καὶ **Λευκάδα πέτρην** &#xD;&#xA;ἠδὲ παρ’ Ἠελίοιο πύλας καὶ δῆμον ὀνείρων&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And they passed by the streams of Okeanos and the White Rock (the original says &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Leukàs Pétrā**) and past the Gates of the Sun and the District of Dreams.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Leukas is the name of a Greek Island in the Ionian sea. Nowadays it is called [Lefkada](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lefkada).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The likelihood the White Rock refers to this island is corroborated by other texts, like [Menander](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menander)'s Leukadia (The Girl from Leukas): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;οὗ δὴ λέγεται πρώτη Σαπφὼ  &#xD;&#xA;τὸν ὑπέρκομπον θηρῶσα Φάον’  &#xD;&#xA;οἰστρῶντι πόθῳ ῥῖψαι πέτρας  &#xD;&#xA;ἀπὸ τηλεφανοῦς. ἀλλὰ κατ’εὐχὴν  &#xD;&#xA;σήν, δέσποτ’ ἄναξ, εὐφημείσθω  &#xD;&#xA;τέμενος πέρι Λευκάδος ἀκτῆς  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; where they say that Sappho was the first, hunting down the proud  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Phaon, to throw herself, in her goading desire, from **the rock that shines from afar**.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; But now, in accordance with your sacred utterance,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; lord king, let there be silence throughout the sacred precinct of the  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; head-land of Leukas.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also in [Anacreon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anacreon):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;ἀρθεὶς δηὖτ’ ἀπὸ **Λευκάδος  &#xD;&#xA;πέτρης** ἐς πολιὸν κῦμα κολυμβῶ μεθύων ἔρωτι&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One more time taking off in the air, down from the **White Rock** into  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; the dark waves do I dive, intoxicated with lust.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and [Euripides](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euripides)' Cyclops:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;ὡς ἐκπιεῖν γ’ ἂν κύλικα μαινοίμην μίαν  &#xD;&#xA;πάντων Κυκλώπων &lt;μὴ&gt; ἀντιδοὺς βοσκήματα  &#xD;&#xA;ῥῖψαί τ’ ἐς ἅλμην **Λευκάδος πέτρας** ἄπο  &#xD;&#xA;ἅπαξ μεθυσθεὶς καταβαλών τε τὰς ὄφρυς.  &#xD;&#xA;ὡς ὅς γε πίνων μὴ γέγηθε μαίνεται  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I would be crazy not to give all the herds of the Cyclopes in return  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; for drinking one cup [of that wine] and throw myself from the **white rock**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; into the brine, once I am intoxicated, with eyebrows relaxed.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Whoever is not happy when he drinks is crazy.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17768" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5348" RevisionGUID="9283d74a-99b2-4119-a87d-4e27a54442b0" CreationDate="2018-12-30T12:20:47.527" UserId="57" Comment="added 22 characters in body" Text="This is from Appolodorus 3.6.7. It does not refer to specific parts or phases of intercourse. You should read the numbers as percentages, as the translation indicates:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hence, when Hera and Zeus disputed whether the pleasures of love are  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; felt more by women or by men, they referred to him for a decision. He  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; said that if the pleasures of love **be reckoned at ten**, men enjoy one  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; and women nine. Wherefore Hera blinded him, but Zeus bestowed on him  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; the art of soothsaying. The saying of Tiresias to Zeus and Hera: &quot;Of  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; ten parts a man enjoys one only; but a woman enjoys the full ten parts  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; in her heart.&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the original text, the saying reads:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; τὸ ὑπὸ Τειρεσίου λεχθὲν πρὸς Δία καὶ Ἥραν·  &#xD;&#xA;οἴην μὲν μοῖραν δέκα μοιρῶν τέρπεται ἀνήρ,  &#xD;&#xA;τὰς δὲ δέκ' ἐμπίπλησι γυνὴ τέρπουσα νόημα.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17769" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5347" RevisionGUID="d4d7c889-a2a3-465c-9524-e159815f4830" CreationDate="2018-12-30T12:23:04.133" UserId="57" Comment="added 59 characters in body" Text="This does not refer to a specific set of laws, but echoes Hesiod's [Theogeny](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theogony), the genealogy of the Greek Gods, and the [Gigantomachy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giants_(Greek_mythology)#The_Gigantomachy).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's called an &quot;old&quot; law (the text doesn't actually contain that word, see below) because the decree stem from the time of Cronus' reign, so before Zeus defeated Cronus and created the Greek Pantheon (which includes Pallas Athena). Zeus' laws are described as just in Theogeny whereas Cronus' rule is described as cruel. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As to the apparent contradiction on the punishment, blindness and sight refer to two different things here. In [Calimachus' fifth hymn](https://www.theoi.com/Text/CallimachusHymns2.html#5), Athena blinds Tiresias:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And he stood there speechless; for pain glued his knees and  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; helplessness stayed his voice. But the nymph cried: “What has thou  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; done to my boy, lady? Is such the friendship of you goddesses? Thou  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; hast taken away the eyes of my son. Foolish child! Thou hast seen the  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; breast and body of Athena, but the sun thou shalt not see again.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Charilco pleads with Athena, she explains the reason for the punishment, an edict by Cronus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ἆ καὶ ἅμ᾽ ἀμφοτέραισι φίλον περὶ παῖδα λαβοῖσα  &#xD;&#xA;μάτηρ μὲν γοερᾶν οἶτον ἀηδονίδων  &#xD;&#xA;ἆγε βαρὺ κλαίοισα, θεὰ δ᾽ ἐλέησεν ἑταίραν  &#xD;&#xA;καί νιν Ἀθαναία πρὸς τόδ᾽ ἔλεξεν ἔπος  &#xD;&#xA;‘δῖα γύναι, μετὰ πάντα βαλεῦ πάλιν ὅσσα δι᾽ ὀργὰν  &#xD;&#xA;εἶπας: ἐγὼ δ᾽ οὔ τοι τέκνον ἔθηκ᾽ ἀλαόν.  &#xD;&#xA;οὐ γὰρ Ἀθαναίᾳ γλυκερὸν πέλει ὄμματα παίδων  &#xD;&#xA;ρπάζειν: **Κρόνιοι δ᾽ ὧδε λέγοντι νόμοι:  &#xD;&#xA;ὅς κε τιν᾽ ἀθανάτων, ὅκα μὴ θεὸς αὐτὸς ἕληται,  &#xD;&#xA;ἀθρήσῃ, μισθῶ τοῦτον ἰδεῖν μεγάλω.**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Noble lady, take back all the words that thou hast spoken in anger. It  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; is not I that made thy child blind. For no sweet thin is it for Athena  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; to snatch away the eyes of children. **But the laws of Cronus  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; order thus: Whosoever shall behold any of the immortals, when the god  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; himself chooses not, at a heavy price shall he behold.**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sight refers to Athena's gift of clairvoyance:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Therefore, O comrade, lament not; for to this thy son – for thy sake –  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; shall remain many other honours from me. For I will make him a seer to  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; be sung of men hereafter, yea, more excellent than any other. He shall  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; know the birds – which is of good omen among all the countless birds  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; that fly and what birds are of ill-omened flight. Many oracles shall  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; he utter to the Boeotians and many unto Cadmus, and to the mighty sons  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Labdacus in later days. Also will I give him a great staff which  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; shall guide his feet as he hath need, and I will give him a long term  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; of life." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17772" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="2723" RevisionGUID="a6f8995b-e042-4b63-85ac-0c9855b29f32" CreationDate="2018-12-30T12:44:07.947" UserId="57" Comment="74" />
  <row Id="17773" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5347" RevisionGUID="bfad9624-4ab5-4d75-8ef6-782d5d51dfd5" CreationDate="2018-12-30T13:11:21.070" UserId="5229" Comment="corrected typo in English and Greek" Text="This does not refer to a specific set of laws, but echoes Hesiod's [Theogony](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theogony), the genealogy of the Greek Gods, and the [Gigantomachy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giants_(Greek_mythology)#The_Gigantomachy).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's called an &quot;old&quot; law (the text doesn't actually contain that word, see below) because the decree stem from the time of Cronus' reign, so before Zeus defeated Cronus and created the Greek Pantheon (which includes Pallas Athena). Zeus' laws are described as just in Theogeny whereas Cronus' rule is described as cruel. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As to the apparent contradiction on the punishment, blindness and sight refer to two different things here. In [Calimachus' fifth hymn](https://www.theoi.com/Text/CallimachusHymns2.html#5), Athena blinds Tiresias:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And he stood there speechless; for pain glued his knees and  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; helplessness stayed his voice. But the nymph cried: “What has thou  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; done to my boy, lady? Is such the friendship of you goddesses? Thou  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; hast taken away the eyes of my son. Foolish child! Thou hast seen the  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; breast and body of Athena, but the sun thou shalt not see again.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Charilco pleads with Athena, she explains the reason for the punishment, an edict by Cronus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ἆ καὶ ἅμ᾽ ἀμφοτέραισι φίλον περὶ παῖδα λαβοῖσα  &#xD;&#xA;μάτηρ μὲν γοερᾶν οἶτον ἀηδονίδων  &#xD;&#xA;ἆγε βαρὺ κλαίοισα, θεὰ δ᾽ ἐλέησεν ἑταίραν  &#xD;&#xA;καί νιν Ἀθαναία πρὸς τόδ᾽ ἔλεξεν ἔπος  &#xD;&#xA;‘δῖα γύναι, μετὰ πάντα βαλεῦ πάλιν ὅσσα δι᾽ ὀργὰν  &#xD;&#xA;εἶπας: ἐγὼ δ᾽ οὔ τοι τέκνον ἔθηκ᾽ ἀλαόν.  &#xD;&#xA;οὐ γὰρ Ἀθαναίᾳ γλυκερὸν πέλει ὄμματα παίδων  &#xD;&#xA;ἁρπάζειν: **Κρόνιοι δ᾽ ὧδε λέγοντι νόμοι:  &#xD;&#xA;ὅς κε τιν᾽ ἀθανάτων, ὅκα μὴ θεὸς αὐτὸς ἕληται,  &#xD;&#xA;ἀθρήσῃ, μισθῶ τοῦτον ἰδεῖν μεγάλω.**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;p&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Noble lady, take back all the words that thou hast spoken in anger. It  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; is not I that made thy child blind. For no sweet thin is it for Athena  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; to snatch away the eyes of children. **But the laws of Cronus  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; order thus: Whosoever shall behold any of the immortals, when the god  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; himself chooses not, at a heavy price shall he behold.**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sight refers to Athena's gift of clairvoyance:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Therefore, O comrade, lament not; for to this thy son – for thy sake –  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; shall remain many other honours from me. For I will make him a seer to  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; be sung of men hereafter, yea, more excellent than any other. He shall  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; know the birds – which is of good omen among all the countless birds  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; that fly and what birds are of ill-omened flight. Many oracles shall  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; he utter to the Boeotians and many unto Cadmus, and to the mighty sons  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Labdacus in later days. Also will I give him a great staff which  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; shall guide his feet as he hath need, and I will give him a long term  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; of life." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17774" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5347" RevisionGUID="bfad9624-4ab5-4d75-8ef6-782d5d51dfd5" CreationDate="2018-12-30T13:11:21.070" Comment="Proposed by 5229 approved by 57 edit id of 1691" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17775" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5349" RevisionGUID="92d09e15-1f99-461c-9d8b-e4294b650c41" CreationDate="2018-12-30T14:46:17.250" UserId="57" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="In the Odyssey:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;πὰρ δ’ ἴσαν Ὠκεανοῦ τε ῥοὰς καὶ **Λευκάδα πέτρην**  &#xD;&#xA;ἠδὲ παρ’ Ἠελίοιο πύλας καὶ δῆμον ὀνείρων&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And they passed by the streams of Okeanos and the White Rock (the original says &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Leukàs Pétrā**) and past the Gates of the Sun and the District of Dreams.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Leukas is the name of a Greek Island in the Ionian sea. Nowadays it is called [Lefkada](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lefkada).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The likelihood the White Rock refers to this island is corroborated by other texts, like [Menander](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menander)'s Leukadia (The Girl from Leukas): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;οὗ δὴ λέγεται πρώτη Σαπφὼ  &#xD;&#xA;τὸν ὑπέρκομπον θηρῶσα Φάον’  &#xD;&#xA;οἰστρῶντι πόθῳ ῥῖψαι πέτρας  &#xD;&#xA;ἀπὸ τηλεφανοῦς. ἀλλὰ κατ’εὐχὴν  &#xD;&#xA;σήν, δέσποτ’ ἄναξ, εὐφημείσθω  &#xD;&#xA;τέμενος πέρι Λευκάδος ἀκτῆς  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; where they say that Sappho was the first, hunting down the proud  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Phaon, to throw herself, in her goading desire, from **the rock that shines from afar**.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; But now, in accordance with your sacred utterance,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; lord king, let there be silence throughout the sacred precinct of the  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; head-land of Leukas.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also in [Anacreon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anacreon):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;ἀρθεὶς δηὖτ’ ἀπὸ **Λευκάδος  &#xD;&#xA;πέτρης** ἐς πολιὸν κῦμα κολυμβῶ μεθύων ἔρωτι&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One more time taking off in the air, down from the **White Rock** into  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; the dark waves do I dive, intoxicated with lust.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and [Euripides](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euripides)' Cyclops:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;ὡς ἐκπιεῖν γ’ ἂν κύλικα μαινοίμην μίαν  &#xD;&#xA;πάντων Κυκλώπων &lt;μὴ&gt; ἀντιδοὺς βοσκήματα  &#xD;&#xA;ῥῖψαί τ’ ἐς ἅλμην **Λευκάδος πέτρας** ἄπο  &#xD;&#xA;ἅπαξ μεθυσθεὶς καταβαλών τε τὰς ὄφρυς.  &#xD;&#xA;ὡς ὅς γε πίνων μὴ γέγηθε μαίνεται  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I would be crazy not to give all the herds of the Cyclopes in return  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; for drinking one cup [of that wine] and throw myself from the **white rock**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; into the brine, once I am intoxicated, with eyebrows relaxed.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Whoever is not happy when he drinks is crazy.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17776" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5345" RevisionGUID="5c34d272-302a-4a90-acb6-ced196a07598" CreationDate="2018-12-30T22:47:00.710" UserId="4271" Comment="added 93 characters in body" Text="&gt; They were all required to drink a measure of the water, and those who were not saved by their good sense, drank more than the measure, and each one as he drank forgot all things.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Found [here][1] in reincarnation.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The above sentence says that a soul in Elysium must drink water from the River Lethe (Forgetfulness) before reincarnating. What happened to those that drank more than &quot;their measure&quot; of water?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.maicar.com/GML/Underworld.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17777" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="82" RevisionGUID="aea41fcd-fa51-4207-a963-3ac7e4a79716" CreationDate="2018-12-30T22:51:00.323" UserId="4271" Comment="deleted 17 characters in body" Text="The Wikipedia page on the [Monomyth](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth) has these statements in the summary at the top:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Campbell held that numerous myths from disparate times and regions share fundamental structures and stages,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Campbell argues that classic myths from many cultures follow this basic pattern.&lt;sup&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately, the second one doesn't have a reference. However, I think there's a pretty good chance that this *was* Campbell's belief. Now, I'm wondering if he ever said anything about **why so many myths follow this pattern**. I'm not looking for anyone's opinion - I'm specifically looking for Campbell's opinion on this matter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is it that so many myths from all sorts of cultures follow the mono-myth pattern?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17778" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="80" RevisionGUID="8c1edd30-1043-44e4-98fe-8c0c6730500a" CreationDate="2018-12-30T22:54:06.263" UserId="4271" Comment="added 5 characters in body" Text="The River Styx is mentioned quite a lot when a Greek hero meets his demise. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However is this really a body of water in Hades? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it made out of something else? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the River Styx?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17779" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="79" RevisionGUID="14743334-7f4e-4654-b69a-a20567fabf84" CreationDate="2018-12-30T22:55:04.280" UserId="4271" Comment="edited body; edited title" Text="In Greek mythology, Kore and Persephone were interchangeable as Hades' wife.  Which is it? Kore or Persephone?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17780" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="79" RevisionGUID="14743334-7f4e-4654-b69a-a20567fabf84" CreationDate="2018-12-30T22:55:04.280" UserId="4271" Comment="edited body; edited title" Text="Why is Kore and Persephone interchangeable in the myth regarding Hades wife?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17781" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="78" RevisionGUID="da43596a-3b2d-4a34-98e7-4b6203b98391" CreationDate="2018-12-30T22:57:14.187" UserId="4271" Comment="deleted 7 characters in body; edited tags" Text="A recurring theme in Irish stories about the Faerie is that they can be kept away by clothing turned inside-out. This (according to [this particular Wikipedia source about Spriggans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spriggan#Spriggans_in_folklore)) is &quot;as effective as holy water or iron in repelling fairies&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Holy water makes sense, as the Irish reconciled their original stories with the Christian mythology by saying that the Good Folk were the angels who had stayed neutral during God's conflict with Lucifer. Not good enough for heaven, not bad enough for hell, they remained on Earth, repelled by Christian symbols.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are some theories about why iron would repel them, one of them being that this was influenced by the Picts, who apparently had not discovered iron-working and could be defeated by the superior iron weapons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But turning one's clothing inside-out? Why would such a method repel these beings?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17782" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="78" RevisionGUID="da43596a-3b2d-4a34-98e7-4b6203b98391" CreationDate="2018-12-30T22:57:14.187" UserId="4271" Comment="deleted 7 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|irish|interpretation|fairies|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17783" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="65" RevisionGUID="805c7c55-4546-46c4-bcb4-34078f9391fc" CreationDate="2018-12-30T23:05:19.493" UserId="4271" Comment="added 10 characters in body" Text="There is a theme that I found in several folk tales from Ireland to Russia - although mostly in Irish/Celtic stories. It is where a house has supernatural helpers, who do work overnight. However, the rule is to not give them clothes, or they will go away.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;*(And yes, we find that back in Harry Potter, with the house elves)*.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since this seems to be a recurring theme in cultures separated by long distances, I figure it has a hidden meaning - a warning conveyed in somewhat cryptic terms.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My best guess is that it's a warning to not spoil your servants, or else it may go to their heads. Is that right, or is there another meaning? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17784" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="53" RevisionGUID="206e76dc-c25b-4a73-a58d-9885d968c5cb" CreationDate="2018-12-30T23:11:03.873" UserId="4271" Comment="deleted 5 characters in body" Text="I am looking for a compare/contrast of war gods. (Feel free to mention other deities in your answer if they are relevant or helpful in explaining)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Considering their direct linkage I am curious to know how Ares and Mars were treated different by the Greek and Roman military respectively.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- What was different between the two in regards to their relationship with the military?&#xD;&#xA;- In what ways were the two deities worshiped the same?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17785" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="41" RevisionGUID="df315e42-22a6-4240-8493-96c89a1fa741" CreationDate="2018-12-30T23:12:22.087" UserId="4271" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body" Text="One thing has always confused me about the story of Pandora. When she opened her box (or jar, whatever), all sorts of evil things escaped outside the box, and this is why we have evil in the world now. Then, she closed the box before hope could escape, so that hope remained within the box. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does this mean that the world _doesn't_ have hope, though (since it's still stuck in the box)? I thought that the &quot;moral&quot; of the story, so to speak, was that even though there's all this evil out in the world, there's still hope, so not all is lost. But that doesn't make sense if hope is still stuck inside the box." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17786" PostHistoryTypeId="8" PostId="53" RevisionGUID="8e495d18-d60e-409a-82ce-a331d8b2691d" CreationDate="2018-12-30T23:43:56.460" UserId="57" Comment="Rollback to [98166a97-854d-46cc-9f89-9e26cd0deb2d]" Text="I am looking for a comparison/contrast of war gods.  (Feel free to mention other deities in your answer if they are relevant or helpful in explaining)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Considering their direct linkage I am curious to know how Ares and Mars were treated different by the Greek and Roman military respectively.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- What was different between the two in regards to their relationship with the military?&#xD;&#xA;- In what ways were the two deities worshipped the same?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17787" PostHistoryTypeId="8" PostId="65" RevisionGUID="3135cdc4-e98d-4943-a642-afd291ca3be3" CreationDate="2018-12-30T23:44:42.263" UserId="57" Comment="Rollback to [9b8709a5-0102-43a3-96e8-ac28cf064be9]" Text="There is a theme that I found in several folk tales from Ireland to Russia - although mostly in Irish/Celtic stories. It is where a house has supernatural helpers, who do work overnight. However, the rule is to not give them clothes, or they will go away.  &#xD;&#xA;(And yes, we find that back in Harry Potter, with the house elves).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since this seems to be a recurring theme in cultures separated by long distances, I figure it has a hidden meaning - a warning conveyed in somewhat cryptic terms.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My best guess is that it is a warning to not spoil your servants, or else it may go to their heads. Is that right, or is there another meaning? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17788" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5152" RevisionGUID="c80c095a-4c75-45b4-a2ba-79d90b99067d" CreationDate="2018-12-31T23:00:50.150" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="17789" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5350" RevisionGUID="41cea75a-7f7d-4f7e-a603-c3c434f7579b" CreationDate="2019-01-02T03:22:53.707" UserId="1317" Text="There is really no evidence associating leprechauns with rainbows before the 20th century. A different answer quotes a _Time_ magazine article from 1952. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sole folklore-related Google Books result from the 19th century comes from _Irish Melodies_, a compendium of poems by Thomas Moore, but  a look at [the actual page](https://books.google.com/books?id=Z-ZTAAAAcAAJ&amp;pg=PA211&amp;dq=leprechaun+rainbow) is disappointing: the end of one poem mentions a rainbow while a footnote to the next poem mentions a leprechaun. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What appears to have happened is a conflation of two different legends, one involving leprechauns and gold and another involving rainbows and gold. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An 1851 book of Northern mythology talks about pots of gold at the ends of rainbows as coming from Germanic myth:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to a popular belief in Germany, Denmark, and England, a golden cup or hidden treasure lies where the rainbow apparently touches the ground.  This seems a remnant of the belief in Mimir's spring, in which wisdom's golden treasure was concealed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-- Benjamin  Thorpe, _Northern Mythology_, London, 1851, [p. 158](https://books.google.com/books?id=sIBpAAAAcAAJ&amp;pg=PA158&amp;dq=gold+rainbow+mimir)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thorpe refers to Mimir's well, which lies near the Jotunheim end of the rainbow bridge Bifrost.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_The Tree of Myth_, an 1898 book of folklore by Charles de Berard Mills, states:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Children believe at this day that a golden cup or bag of gold lied at the end of a rainbow. The story comes from the ancient sun-myth so widely diffused, of the golden orb sinking into the waters of ocean or stream or lake.  In one transformation it was the legend of a golden treasure buried in the Rhine, as we have it in the Niebelungen Lay, then finally, changed as it is in the nursery tale, we see the old myth again.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This book does not contain the word &quot;leprechaun&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Leprechaun gold is well-hidden and guarded. It doesn't have a rainbow telling the whole world where it is:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; If you could only catch the leprechaun at his work and hold him, he would tell you where the crock of gold, his hidden treasure, lies hidden. Nor would it turn into fairy-gold, once found. But the leprechaun is artful and plays shabby trick sometimes. He was once caught by a peasan, and in return for his release indicated where a crock of gold lay. It was under a spike of ragweed in a thirty-acre field. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; -- &quot;[Irish Superstitions, Spells, and Charms](https://books.google.com/books?id=L6dXAAAAYAAJ&amp;pg=PA127&amp;dq=leprechaun++gold)&quot;,  Katherine Tynan Hickson, _The Outlook_ , collected in _Current Literature_, 1895&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice you din't find the leprechaun's gold just lying around at the end of the rainbow, you have to kidnap the creature and make him tell you where the gold is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a good segue to what appears to be what I think is the point of conflation, which is the 1947 Broadway musical _[Finian's Rainbow](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finian%27s_Rainbow)_,  by E. Y. Harburg and Burton Lane. It was a smash hit that ran for 725 performances, and was later made into a 1968 movie starring Fred Astaire and Petula Clark.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Ever since I was 2, you've been seeing leprechauns and rainbows over your whiskey jug.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The play revolves around a pot of gold that Finian McLonergan stole from a leprechaun in Ireland, then brought across the Atlantic to Rainbow Valley, Missitucky. He hopes to bury it near Fort Knox in hopes ithe gold will multiply. But Og the leprechaun follows Finian to America trying to get his gold back. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice it's not said the gold was found ***at*** the end of the rainbow...instead, Finian brought the gold ***to*** the end of the rainbow. Nevertheless the opening number &quot;Look To The Rainbow&quot; uses following  the rainbow as a metaphor for following a dream. All of the elements swirl together and it looks like that's how this entered popular folklore.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17790" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5350" RevisionGUID="535d4d74-483a-47a2-aa6a-3b39f83845c2" CreationDate="2019-01-02T03:33:45.630" UserId="1317" Comment="Added a link" Text="There is really no evidence associating leprechauns with rainbows before the 20th century. A different answer quotes a _Time_ magazine article from 1952. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sole folklore-related Google Books result from the 19th century comes from _Irish Melodies_, a compendium of poems by Thomas Moore, but  a look at [the actual page](https://books.google.com/books?id=Z-ZTAAAAcAAJ&amp;pg=PA211&amp;dq=leprechaun+rainbow) is disappointing: the end of one poem mentions a rainbow while a footnote to the next poem mentions a leprechaun. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What appears to have happened is a conflation of two different legends, one involving leprechauns and gold and another involving rainbows and gold. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An 1851 book of Northern mythology talks about pots of gold at the ends of rainbows as coming from Germanic myth:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to a popular belief in Germany, Denmark, and England, a golden cup or hidden treasure lies where the rainbow apparently touches the ground.  This seems a remnant of the belief in Mimir's spring, in which wisdom's golden treasure was concealed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-- Benjamin  Thorpe, _Northern Mythology_, London, 1851, [p. 158](https://books.google.com/books?id=sIBpAAAAcAAJ&amp;pg=PA158&amp;dq=gold+rainbow+mimir)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thorpe refers to Mimir's well, which lies near the Jotunheim end of the rainbow bridge Bifrost.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_[The Tree of Myth](https://books.google.com/books?id=maFZAAAAMAAJ&amp;pg=PA147&amp;dq=rainbow+&quot;pot+of+gold&quot;)_, an 1889 book of folklore by Charles de Berard Mills, states:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Children believe at this day that a golden cup or bag of gold lied at the end of a rainbow. The story comes from the ancient sun-myth so widely diffused, of the golden orb sinking into the waters of ocean or stream or lake.  In one transformation it was the legend of a golden treasure buried in the Rhine, as we have it in the Niebelungen Lay, then finally, changed as it is in the nursery tale, we see the old myth again.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This book does not contain the word &quot;leprechaun&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Leprechaun gold is well-hidden and guarded. It doesn't have a rainbow directing the whole world to its location:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; If you could only catch the leprechaun at his work and hold him, he would tell you where the crock of gold, his hidden treasure, lies hidden. Nor would it turn into fairy-gold, once found. But the leprechaun is artful and plays shabby trick sometimes. He was once caught by a peasan, and in return for his release indicated where a crock of gold lay. It was under a spike of ragweed in a thirty-acre field. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; -- &quot;[Irish Superstitions, Spells, and Charms](https://books.google.com/books?id=L6dXAAAAYAAJ&amp;pg=PA127&amp;dq=leprechaun++gold)&quot;,  Katherine Tynan Hickson, _The Outlook_ , collected in _Current Literature_, 1895&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice you don't find the leprechaun's gold just lying around at the end of the rainbow, you have to kidnap the creature and make him tell you where the gold is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a good segue to what appears to be what I think is the point of conflation, which is the 1947 Broadway musical _[Finian's Rainbow](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finian%27s_Rainbow)_,  by E. Y. Harburg and Burton Lane. It was a smash hit that ran for 725 performances, and was later made into a 1968 movie starring Fred Astaire and Petula Clark.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Ever since I was 2, you've been seeing leprechauns and rainbows over your whiskey jug.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The play revolves around a pot of gold that Finian McLonergan stole from a leprechaun in Ireland, then brought across the Atlantic to Rainbow Valley, Missitucky. He hopes to bury it near Fort Knox in hopes ithe gold will multiply. But Og the leprechaun follows Finian to America trying to get his gold back. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice it's not said the gold was found ***at*** the end of the rainbow...instead, Finian brought the gold ***to*** the end of the rainbow. Nevertheless the opening number &quot;Look To The Rainbow&quot; uses following  the rainbow as a metaphor for following a dream. All of the elements swirl together and it looks like that's how this entered popular folklore.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17791" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5350" RevisionGUID="d1b4fc06-1b11-467c-a150-c299b849e509" CreationDate="2019-01-02T03:41:38.437" UserId="1317" Comment="Added more links" Text="There is really no evidence associating leprechauns with rainbows before the 20th century. A different answer quotes a _Time_ magazine article from 1952. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sole folklore-related Google Books result from the 19th century containing both &quot;rainbow&quot;and &quot;leprechaun&quot; comes from _Irish Melodies_, a compendium of poems by Thomas Moore, but  a look at [the actual page](https://books.google.com/books?id=Z-ZTAAAAcAAJ&amp;pg=PA211&amp;dq=leprechaun+rainbow) is disappointing: the end of one poem mentions a rainbow while a footnote to the next poem mentions a leprechaun. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What appears to have happened is a conflation of two different legends, one involving leprechauns and gold and another involving rainbows and gold. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An 1851 book of Northern mythology talks about pots of gold at the ends of rainbows as coming from Germanic myth:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to a popular belief in Germany, Denmark, and England, a golden cup or hidden treasure lies where the rainbow apparently touches the ground.  This seems a remnant of the belief in Mimir's spring, in which wisdom's golden treasure was concealed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-- Benjamin  Thorpe, _Northern Mythology_, London, 1851, [p. 158](https://books.google.com/books?id=sIBpAAAAcAAJ&amp;pg=PA158&amp;dq=gold+rainbow+mimir)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thorpe refers to [Mimir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mímir)'s well, which lies near the Jotunheim end of the rainbow bridge Bifrost.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_[The Tree of Myth](https://books.google.com/books?id=maFZAAAAMAAJ&amp;pg=PA147&amp;dq=rainbow+&quot;pot+of+gold&quot;)_, an 1889 book of folklore by Charles de Berard Mills, states:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Children believe at this day that a golden cup or bag of gold lies at the end of a rainbow. The story comes from the ancient sun-myth so widely diffused, of the golden orb sinking into the waters of ocean or stream or lake.  In one transformation it was the legend of a golden treasure buried in the Rhine, as we have it in the [Niebelungen Lay](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nibelungenlied), then finally, changed as it is in the nursery tale, we see the old myth again.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This book does not contain the word &quot;leprechaun&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Leprechaun gold is well-hidden and guarded. It doesn't have a rainbow directing the whole world to its location:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; If you could only catch the leprechaun at his work and hold him, he would tell you where the crock of gold, his hidden treasure, lies hidden. Nor would it turn into fairy-gold, once found. But the leprechaun is artful and plays shabby tricks sometimes. He was once caught by a peasant, and in return for his release indicated where a crock of gold lay. It was under a spike of ragweed in a thirty-acre field. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; -- &quot;[Irish Superstitions, Spells, and Charms](https://books.google.com/books?id=L6dXAAAAYAAJ&amp;pg=PA127&amp;dq=leprechaun++gold)&quot;,  Katherine Tynan Hickson, _The Outlook_ , collected in _Current Literature_, 1895&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice you don't find the leprechaun's gold just lying around at the end of the rainbow, you have to kidnap the creature and make him tell you where the gold is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a good segue to what appears to be what I think is the point of conflation, which is the 1947 Broadway musical _[Finian's Rainbow](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finian%27s_Rainbow)_,  by E. Y. Harburg and Burton Lane. It was a smash hit that ran for 725 performances, and was later made into a 1968 movie starring Fred Astaire and Petula Clark.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Ever since I was 2, you've been seeing leprechauns and rainbows over your whiskey jug.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The play revolves around a pot of gold that Finian McLonergan stole from a leprechaun in Ireland, then brought across the Atlantic to Rainbow Valley, Missitucky. He hopes to bury it near Fort Knox in hopes the gold will multiply. But Og the leprechaun follows Finian to America trying to get his gold back. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice it's not said the gold was found ***at*** the end of the rainbow...instead, Finian brought the gold ***to*** the end of the rainbow. Nevertheless the opening number &quot;Look To The Rainbow&quot; uses following  the rainbow as a metaphor for following a dream. All of the elements swirl together and it looks like that's how this entered popular folklore.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17794" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5224" RevisionGUID="6bfe1d3d-16a7-4462-8236-68bb8a56ac0e" CreationDate="2019-01-02T08:02:25.503" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="17795" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5350" RevisionGUID="9669d9f8-a32b-4155-9ac5-d5f08ed45210" CreationDate="2019-01-02T20:47:11.850" UserId="1317" Comment="Improve narrative flow" Text="What appears to have happened is a 20th Century conflation of two different legends, one involving leprechauns and gold and another involving rainbows and gold. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is really no evidence associating leprechauns with rainbows before the 20th century. (A different answer quotes a _Time_ magazine article from 1952). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sole folklore-related Google Books result from the 19th century containing both &quot;rainbow&quot;and &quot;leprechaun&quot; comes from _Irish Melodies_, a compendium of poems by Thomas Moore, but  a look at [the actual page](https://books.google.com/books?id=Z-ZTAAAAcAAJ&amp;pg=PA211&amp;dq=leprechaun+rainbow) is disappointing: the end of one poem mentions a rainbow while a footnote to the next poem mentions a leprechaun. It's just a typographical coincidence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An 1851 book of Northern mythology talks about pots of gold at the ends of rainbows as coming from Germanic myth:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to a popular belief in Germany, Denmark, and England, a golden cup or hidden treasure lies where the rainbow apparently touches the ground.  This seems a remnant of the belief in Mimir's spring, in which wisdom's golden treasure was concealed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-- Benjamin  Thorpe, _Northern Mythology_, London, 1851, [p. 158](https://books.google.com/books?id=sIBpAAAAcAAJ&amp;pg=PA158&amp;dq=gold+rainbow+mimir)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thorpe refers to [Mimir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mímir)'s well, which lies near the Jotunheim end of the rainbow bridge Bifrost.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_[The Tree of Myth](https://books.google.com/books?id=maFZAAAAMAAJ&amp;pg=PA147&amp;dq=rainbow+&quot;pot+of+gold&quot;)_, an 1889 book of folklore by Charles de Berard Mills, states:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Children believe at this day that a golden cup or bag of gold lies at the end of a rainbow. The story comes from the ancient sun-myth so widely diffused, of the golden orb sinking into the waters of ocean or stream or lake.  In one transformation it was the legend of a golden treasure buried in the Rhine, as we have it in the [Niebelungen Lay](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nibelungenlied), then finally, changed as it is in the nursery tale, we see the old myth again.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This book does not contain the word &quot;leprechaun&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Leprechaun gold is well-hidden and guarded. It doesn't have a rainbow directing the whole world to its location:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; If you could only catch the leprechaun at his work and hold him, he would tell you where the crock of gold, his hidden treasure, lies hidden. Nor would it turn into fairy-gold, once found. But the leprechaun is artful and plays shabby tricks sometimes. He was once caught by a peasant, and in return for his release indicated where a crock of gold lay. It was under a spike of ragweed in a thirty-acre field. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; -- &quot;[Irish Superstitions, Spells, and Charms](https://books.google.com/books?id=L6dXAAAAYAAJ&amp;pg=PA127&amp;dq=leprechaun++gold)&quot;,  Katherine Tynan Hickson, _The Outlook_ , collected in _Current Literature_, 1895&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice you don't find the leprechaun's gold just lying around at the end of the rainbow, you have to kidnap the creature and make him tell you where the gold is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a good segue to what appears to be what I think is the point of conflation, which is the 1947 Broadway musical _[Finian's Rainbow](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finian%27s_Rainbow)_,  by E. Y. Harburg and Burton Lane. It was a smash hit that ran for 725 performances, and was later made into a 1968 movie starring Fred Astaire and Petula Clark.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Ever since I was 2, you've been seeing leprechauns and rainbows over your whiskey jug.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The play revolves around a pot of gold that Finian McLonergan stole from a leprechaun in Ireland, then brought across the Atlantic to Rainbow Valley, Missitucky. He hopes to bury it near Fort Knox in hopes the gold will multiply. But Og the leprechaun follows Finian to America trying to get his gold back. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice it's not said the gold was found ***at*** the end of the rainbow...instead, Finian brought the gold ***to*** the end of the rainbow. Nevertheless the opening number &quot;Look To The Rainbow&quot; uses following  the rainbow as a metaphor for following a dream. All of the elements swirl together and it looks like that's how this entered popular folklore.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17796" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5351" RevisionGUID="00cae5c3-bccc-4b62-8f17-02f16ebcefd9" CreationDate="2019-01-02T21:46:03.473" UserId="5671" Text="It's probably a snood-- what turkeys grow just above their beaks.  Compare this to a (female) Guatemalan Ocellated Turkey.&#xD;&#xA;https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-male-tom-turkey-meleagris-gallopavo-head-showing-coloration-and-snood-38939509.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The weird little balls around the eyes could also be a (male) turkey trait.  &#xD;&#xA;https://19mvmv3yn2qc2bdb912o1t2n-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/science/files/2013/11/MG_1546_XLCropped.jpg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;His headdress and collar could be based on turkey tail feathers.  Ocellated turkey tails are squared off at the top.&#xD;&#xA;http://www.thetaxidermystore.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/o/c/ocellated_turkey_fan_mount_for_sale_19524_the_taxidermy_store.jpg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ocellated turkeys don't gobble, they sort of rumble in a long grunt.  Early recordings didn't do it justice- it's a lot like thunder; you feel it in your chest from a LONG ways away whenever they do it.  They do it in February, just before the spring rains.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The &quot;tusks&quot; are probably nutria incisors, one on each side, held in the mouth.  Nutrias are water animals.  Why nutria teeth?  Nutria and pocket mouth teeth are amazingly tough-- rat incisors are Mohs Hardness of 5.5 but nutria and pocket mouse are a 6.  They make good pocket-tools-- they're strong enough to carve turquoise and even some jade.  Nutria teeth look like enormous versions of the pocket mouth teeth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I guess the gods kept rain around in pots, but then Chaaq, being a benevolent hovering turkey-rodent guy, bit holes in them?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Compare the underside of a pocket mouse skull to the glyph affix translated as &quot;Rodent Bone&quot;, perhaps representing the sound &quot;Koh&quot;.  Ch'o means pocket mouse.  Chaac is sometimes &quot;written&quot; mouse-head + rodent bone.&#xD;&#xA;http://www.mesoweb.com/palenque/monuments/PT/single/media2/K13_MV2417.jpg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's the incisors and the central ridge of the inside of a mouse or rat's mouth.&#xD;&#xA;https://www.flickr.com/photos/richardlsphotos/15556186005&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They also tied the two halves of the lower mandible together.  That's why some versions of this item show wrapping around the middle.  CEH and ZIP have it.&#xD;&#xA;https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/Maya_Hieroglyphs_Fig_19.jpg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Sometimes a glyph for Chaac uses that version, and sometimes it is a kind of C-shape, depicted asseen from the side, not top view)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Chaac's mouth is sometimes the lower jaw of a rodent, turned upside down, and tied in place.&#xD;&#xA;https://www.c-spot.com/wp-content/uploads/guat-chaac.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17799" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5352" RevisionGUID="645cdd0d-83e5-4cae-b781-0768bf1549da" CreationDate="2019-01-03T08:33:23.817" UserId="5673" Text="Before Christianization the Celts of England had a paganism religion. Was there any figure in that religion which was considered to be evil?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17800" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5352" RevisionGUID="645cdd0d-83e5-4cae-b781-0768bf1549da" CreationDate="2019-01-03T08:33:23.817" UserId="5673" Text="Was there any figure considered to be evil in iron age Celtic paganism religion of England" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17801" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5352" RevisionGUID="645cdd0d-83e5-4cae-b781-0768bf1549da" CreationDate="2019-01-03T08:33:23.817" UserId="5673" Text="|celtic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17802" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5352" RevisionGUID="64371beb-5bd8-4594-89f4-fa8a0f04ea00" CreationDate="2019-01-03T09:49:21.833" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Before Christianization the Celts of England had a pagan religion. Was there any figure in that religion which was considered to be evil?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17803" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5352" RevisionGUID="64371beb-5bd8-4594-89f4-fa8a0f04ea00" CreationDate="2019-01-03T09:49:21.833" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Was there any figure considered to be evil in iron age Celtic paganism religion of England?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17804" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5352" RevisionGUID="64371beb-5bd8-4594-89f4-fa8a0f04ea00" CreationDate="2019-01-03T09:49:21.833" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|celtic|british|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17805" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5353" RevisionGUID="d5ad5854-5d43-48a1-a446-9ef472c4a64c" CreationDate="2019-01-03T10:34:59.817" UserId="108" Text="Keep in mind that we're reaching deep behind the shrouds of history. Little is known for certain of religious practices this far back; thus, a great deal of speculation and reconstruction is necessary on this topic. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One possibility is **Annis**. Also known as [Anu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anu_(Irish_goddess)) or Danu**. She was a Celtic deity that some writers contend was a malevolent mother goddess who devoured children, or to whom children were once sacrificed. The only recorded instance of this goddess which survives is found in Ireland; however, some have identified the &quot;Gentle Annie&quot; (so named not because she is gentle, but rather to avoid offence) or Annis found in Britain to be the same deity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [&quot;Gentle Annie&quot;] may be the same old deity as Black Annis of Leicestershire and Anu of Ireland, whose name lingers in the place name, the Paps of Anu, a mountain group in County Kerry.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Mackenzie, Donald Alexander. *Wonder Tales from Scottish Myth &amp; Legend*. Forgotten Books, 1924.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Toponyms suggests support for this interpertation: the [Dane Hills](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dane_Hills) to the west of [Leicestershire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leicestershire) in England is argued to have been named after Danu. In fact, a figure known as [Black Annis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Annis) survives to this day in English folklore, as an old hag who eats children - she is said to live in a cave in Dane Hills.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, it has been suggested that Black Annis emerged from the popular memory of sacrifices to the ancient, prehistoric malevolent deity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another possible example is **Adder**, which may received an evil reputation due to being the only poisonous snake in Britain. According to the *The Encyclopedia of Celtic Mythology and Folklore*, the Adder:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; . . . was given special mythological consideration as the island's only poisonous native snake. It was said to be a wise creature but very wily. In the Scottish Highlands the adder was associated with the weather-controlling hag, the Cailleach.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Encyclopedia of Ancient Deities* more bluntly states:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Adder** (British Isles, Christians, Druids)&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Evil serpent deity. The sly and crafty adder is thought by some to be an aspect of Eris, the goddess of strife . . . An adder is said to have caused the battle of Camlan (between Arthur and Mordred) and is also said to be the source of power of the ancient goddess Cailleach Bheur.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17806" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5353" RevisionGUID="628c0c36-1fe4-40b0-b17a-89f6a20f39f3" CreationDate="2019-01-03T10:44:35.400" UserId="108" Comment="added 1101 characters in body" Text="Keep in mind that we're reaching deep behind the shrouds of history. Little is known for certain of religious practices this far back; thus, a great deal of speculation and reconstruction is necessary on this topic. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One possibility is **Annis**. Also known as [Anu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anu_(Irish_goddess)) or Danu, or Dana. She was a Celtic deity that some writers contend was a malevolent mother goddess who devoured children, or to whom children were once sacrificed. The only recorded instance of this goddess which survives is found in Ireland; however, some have identified the &quot;Gentle Annie&quot; (so named not because she is gentle, but rather to avoid offence) or Annis found in Britain to be the same deity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [&quot;Gentle Annie&quot;] may be the same old deity as Black Annis of Leicestershire and Anu of Ireland, whose name lingers in the place name, the Paps of Anu, a mountain group in County Kerry.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Mackenzie, Donald Alexander. *Wonder Tales from Scottish Myth &amp; Legend*. Forgotten Books, 1924.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Toponyms suggests support for this interpertation: the [Dane Hills](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dane_Hills) to the west of [Leicestershire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leicestershire) in England is argued to have been named after Danu. In fact, a figure known as [Black Annis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Annis) survives to this day in English folklore, as an old hag who eats children - she is said to live in a cave in Dane Hills.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; On Easter Monday it was the custom from early times to hold a drag hunt from Annis' Bower to the Mayor of Leicester's house. The bait dragged was a dead cat drenched in aniseed. Black Annis and Gentle Annie are supposed to derive from Anu, or Dana, a Celtic mother goddess.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Briggs, Katharine Mary, and Katharine Briggs. *An Encyclopedia of Fairies: Hobgoblins, Brownies, Bogies, and Other Supernatural Creatures.* New York, NY: Pantheon Books, 1976.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, it has been suggested that Black Annis emerged from the popular memory of sacrifices to the ancient, prehistoric malevolent deity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Celtic mother-goddess - represented among others by Anu or Danu, the Morrighan, and the quasi-historical Medhbh - was goddess both of sexuality and of war. Her terrifying aspect seems to have led to her becoming in later lore a hag - for example the Blue Hag of the Highlands, the Cailleach Bheur, whom Black Annis with her livid face resembles. That such Celtic mother-goddesses were once worshipped in this area is attested by what seems to be a carving of a fertility y goddess standing just outside Braunston Church.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Westwood, Jennifer. Albion: a guide to legendary Britain. Paladin, 1985.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another possible example is **Adder**, which may received an evil reputation due to being the only poisonous snake in Britain. According to the *The Encyclopedia of Celtic Mythology and Folklore*, the Adder:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; . . . was given special mythological consideration as the island's only poisonous native snake. It was said to be a wise creature but very wily. In the Scottish Highlands the adder was associated with the weather-controlling hag, the Cailleach.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Encyclopedia of Ancient Deities* more bluntly states:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Adder** (British Isles, Christians, Druids)&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Evil serpent deity. The sly and crafty adder is thought by some to be an aspect of Eris, the goddess of strife . . . An adder is said to have caused the battle of Camlan (between Arthur and Mordred) and is also said to be the source of power of the ancient goddess Cailleach Bheur.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17808" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5353" RevisionGUID="8cd1bb17-dfe7-466c-bef7-72f97d1fb0e8" CreationDate="2019-01-03T11:46:22.907" UserId="108" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="Keep in mind that we're reaching deep behind the shrouds of history. Little is known for certain of religious practices this far back; thus, a great deal of speculation and reconstruction is necessary on this topic. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One possibility is **Annis**. Also known as [Anu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anu_(Irish_goddess)) or Danu, or Dana. She was a Celtic deity that some writers contend was a malevolent mother goddess who devoured children, or to whom children were once sacrificed. The only recorded instance of this goddess which survives is found in Ireland; however, some have identified the &quot;Gentle Annie&quot; (so named not because she is gentle, but rather to avoid offence) or Annis found in Britain to be the same deity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [&quot;Gentle Annie&quot;] may be the same old deity as Black Annis of Leicestershire and Anu of Ireland, whose name lingers in the place name, the Paps of Anu, a mountain group in County Kerry.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Mackenzie, Donald Alexander. *Wonder Tales from Scottish Myth &amp; Legend*. Forgotten Books, 1924.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Toponyms suggests support for this interpertation: the [Dane Hills](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dane_Hills) to the west of [Leicestershire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leicestershire) in England is argued to have been named after Danu. In fact, a figure known as [Black Annis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Annis) survives to this day in English folklore, as an old hag who eats children - she is said to live in a cave in Dane Hills.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; On Easter Monday it was the custom from early times to hold a drag hunt from Annis' Bower to the Mayor of Leicester's house. The bait dragged was a dead cat drenched in aniseed. Black Annis and Gentle Annie are supposed to derive from Anu, or Dana, a Celtic mother goddess.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Briggs, Katharine Mary, and Katharine Briggs. *An Encyclopedia of Fairies: Hobgoblins, Brownies, Bogies, and Other Supernatural Creatures.* New York, NY: Pantheon Books, 1976.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, it has been suggested that Black Annis emerged from the popular memory of sacrifices to the ancient, prehistoric malevolent deity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Celtic mother-goddess - represented among others by Anu or Danu, the Morrighan, and the quasi-historical Medhbh - was goddess both of sexuality and of war. Her terrifying aspect seems to have led to her becoming in later lore a hag - for example the Blue Hag of the Highlands, the Cailleach Bheur, whom Black Annis with her livid face resembles. That such Celtic mother-goddesses were once worshipped in this area is attested by what seems to be a carving of a fertility goddess standing just outside Braunston Church.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Westwood, Jennifer. Albion: a guide to legendary Britain. Paladin, 1985.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another possible example is **Adder**, which may have received an evil reputation due to being the only poisonous snake in Britain. According to *The Encyclopedia of Celtic Mythology and Folklore*, the Adder:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; . . . was given special mythological consideration as the island's only poisonous native snake. It was said to be a wise creature but very wily. In the Scottish Highlands the adder was associated with the weather-controlling hag, the Cailleach.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Encyclopedia of Ancient Deities* more bluntly states:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Adder** (British Isles, Christians, Druids)&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Evil serpent deity. The sly and crafty adder is thought by some to be an aspect of Eris, the goddess of strife . . . An adder is said to have caused the battle of Camlan (between Arthur and Mordred) and is also said to be the source of power of the ancient goddess Cailleach Bheur.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17809" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5354" RevisionGUID="88c70bb2-dc4a-4a91-a135-5d523018438c" CreationDate="2019-01-03T12:42:10.890" UserId="5673" Text="In the mythologies that are there for the period in Scotland and England before the advent of Christianity, is there any mention of any practice of human sacrifice for religious rituals?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17810" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5354" RevisionGUID="88c70bb2-dc4a-4a91-a135-5d523018438c" CreationDate="2019-01-03T12:42:10.890" UserId="5673" Text="Is there any mention of human sacrifice in the mythologies of Britain of the period before advent of Christianity?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17811" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5354" RevisionGUID="88c70bb2-dc4a-4a91-a135-5d523018438c" CreationDate="2019-01-03T12:42:10.890" UserId="5673" Text="|british|rituals|worship|the-devil|brittany|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17812" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5355" RevisionGUID="d55c5392-2340-45bc-975e-9eacf622bc6b" CreationDate="2019-01-03T14:02:17.327" UserId="5677" Text="Your question is difficult to answer definitely because of several factors: what we know about the concepts and beliefs of iron age Europe is a patchwork of evidence, archaeology, contemporary descriptions by other cultures and pure, albeit educated, guesswork. Academia abounds with arguments for and against the reality of the &quot;Celt&quot; as a loose term for a period of technological and cultural change, a coherent cultural group or an ethnicity. And even were we able to make statements about any of these things, the concept of Evil then and now is so radically different it adds a whole other layer of problems. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also there was not so much &quot;a religion&quot; as a syncretic development of belief, changing from period to period and adapting to new influences. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A lot of the entries given above by Semaphore rely on the designation of entities as &quot;evil&quot; in modern folklore not as evil in Iron Age Britain. Anu for example is most certainly not evil in Irish folklore and more importantly, in the Irish sagas and literature. Rarely are any gods or heroic figures depicted as fully good or fully evil. They are more to be viewed as Nature herself: both beneficial and harmful. Even the story of Chrom Dubh (a dark entity supposedly vanquished by Patrick) relies on christian sources who conflate him with the devil, and cannot be relied upon for any insight into what actual Iron age peoples thought.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The same is true for Britain, there is such a gap in philosophy between that period and now it would be very difficult to do more than loosely interpret later sources and hope for the best. Just bear in mind almost everything you read will be taken from at best early medieval sources.&#xD;&#xA;Harding's death and burial in Iron age Britain might be of some help to you in background and belief structures. Celtic Mythology sources can be found online on https://celt.ucc.ie// - mainly Irish but again you might find some inspiration in them. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17813" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5356" RevisionGUID="6bb969b3-3355-4184-b6dd-ccff1ece5a94" CreationDate="2019-01-03T14:15:23.733" UserId="5676" Text="It seems to be some kind of robotic/mechanical entity, but that's pretty much all I could gather from googling around.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a Wikipedia page on the matter: [here](https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%B6nnin_kuokkamies), but it is in Finnish, which I, unfortunately, can't read. The picture there piques my curiosity a bit, showing something completely unanthropomorphic (but to be fair, mythical beings don't have to be anthropomorphic).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also a number of translations of the eponymous Korpiklaani song, mostly giving an impression of a silent mechanical worker - although I'm not sure whether it _can't_ talk or just _doesn't like_ to. Not much about the actual shape can be inferred. Also, I don't know how faithful this is to the original myths." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17814" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5356" RevisionGUID="6bb969b3-3355-4184-b6dd-ccff1ece5a94" CreationDate="2019-01-03T14:15:23.733" UserId="5676" Text="What is (a) Könnin kuokkamies?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17815" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5356" RevisionGUID="6bb969b3-3355-4184-b6dd-ccff1ece5a94" CreationDate="2019-01-03T14:15:23.733" UserId="5676" Text="|mythical-creatures|finnish|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17816" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5357" RevisionGUID="16ce1830-e0f4-4b32-a9bc-9d7ad5cc8f96" CreationDate="2019-01-03T15:03:36.710" UserId="5511" Text="Kuokammies means &quot;Ploughman&quot;, and Könni is a Finnish Family name. So &quot;The Ploughman of Könni&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's also a [song by a Finnish Band](https://lyricstranslate.com/en/Koennin-Kuokkamies-H-o-e-man-Koenni.html), lyrics in English provided.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lyrics remind me of [Johannes Von Saaz' &quot;Death and the Plowman&quot;](https://www.bookdepository.com/Death-Ploughman-Johannes-Von-Saaz/9780413773036)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17817" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5358" RevisionGUID="2c2eb058-8eb1-4388-85bd-77cc5079e298" CreationDate="2019-01-03T15:13:22.217" UserId="5511" Text="Yes, we have two main sources from the Early Roman Occupation era:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Strabo, *Geographies* (64-21 BCE):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Romans put a stop both to these customs and to the ones connected&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with sacrifice and divination, as they were in conflict with our own&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ways: for example, they would strike a man who had been consecrated&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for sacrifice in the back with a sword, and make prophecies based on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his death-spasms; and they would not sacrifice without the presence of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Druids. Other kinds of human sacrifices have been reported as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; well: some men they would shoot dead with arrows and impale in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; temples; or they would construct a huge figure of straw and wood, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; having thrown cattle and all manner of wild animals and humans into&#xD;&#xA;&gt; it, they would make a burnt offering of the whole thing&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Julius Caesar, *De Bello Gallico* (44 BCE):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; All the people of Gaul are completely devoted to religion, and for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this reason those who are greatly affected by diseases and in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dangers of battle either sacrifice human victims or vow to do so using&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Druids as administrators to these sacrifices, since it is judged&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that unless for a man’s life a man’s life is given back, the will of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the immortal gods cannot be placated. In public affairs they have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; instituted the same kind of sacrifice. Others have effigies of great&#xD;&#xA;&gt; size interwoven with twigs, the limbs of which are filled up with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; living people which are set on fire from below, and the people are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; deprived of life surrounded by flames. It is judged that the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; punishment of those who participated in theft or brigandage or other&#xD;&#xA;&gt; crimes are more pleasing to the immortal gods; but when the supplies&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of this kind fail, they even go so low as to inflict punishment on the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; innocent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This practice possibly continued during early Christianity. Medieval Irish Catholic texts mention the early church in Ireland burying sacrificial victims underneath churches in order to consecrate them. The most notable example of this is the case of Odran of Iona who volunteered to die and be buried under the church of the monastery of Iona. &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17818" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5357" RevisionGUID="a465ce66-2d52-40ed-ab69-bde171685ce7" CreationDate="2019-01-03T16:11:22.050" UserId="5511" Comment="added 1271 characters in body" Text="Kuokammies means &quot;Ploughman&quot;, and Könni is a Finnish Family name. So &quot;The Ploughman of Könni&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's also a [song by a Finnish Band](https://lyricstranslate.com/en/Koennin-Kuokkamies-H-o-e-man-Koenni.html), lyrics in English provided.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lyrics remind me of [Johannes Von Saaz' &quot;Death and the Plowman&quot;](https://www.bookdepository.com/Death-Ploughman-Johannes-Von-Saaz/9780413773036)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Edit: I just copied the Finnish text you linked into Google Translate and got this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Könn's dancer is one of Finland's most famous folk tales about the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mechanical &quot;robot&quot;, which made Könn's master clear the land for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cultivation. According to the story, the man in the dungeon slammed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the ground and pushed the carts in the field. Passers-by raised a hand&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and greeted him, but Kökkamies stayed silent, for the master did not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; speak of having done it but working. The miserable fate of the royal&#xD;&#xA;&gt; man was drowning in the ship's head when the sloppy slave fell asleep&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and didn't turn it at the end of the field. Some investigators have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; argued that this was a planned act, because the deaf man was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; considered arrogant because of his silence.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In some stories, Könne has a number of windbreakers, while others have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; guts (feters) or weights. In other stories, however, deaf men are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; becoming violent because of lost earnings. The pods traveled a lot and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the steam engine came in. It was hardly a strange thing, as Mr A.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Wasastjerna, the founder and partner of Tampella, made his spinning&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gear at a workshop on a riverboat steam engine. However, the machine&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was broken during the test run and repaired at Könn's place.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17821" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5312" RevisionGUID="c8bc4203-1090-4969-b24b-6c5aea1f7cce" CreationDate="2019-01-04T02:20:50.197" UserId="5431" Comment="added 533 characters in body" Text="&gt; This question has two parts. &#xA;&#xA;&gt; **1. Did Queen Heo exist?**&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any evidence that Queen Heo was a historical figure and not just a legend?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any proof that her [tomb in Korea][1] really houses her body?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Does she appear in the [Samguk Sagi][2] or any other historical records?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any archaeological or other tangible evidence for her existence?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; **2. Where did she come from?**&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is it more likely that she was Indo-Aryan or Tamil (or Thai)?&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xA;&#xA;*Photo from Tomb in Gimhae, Korea, kindly provided by Professor Emeritus KIM Byung-Mo, senior anthropologist from Hanyang University, author of &quot;Heo Hwang-ok Route: From India to Gaya of Korea&quot;*&#xA;&#xA;Queen [Heo Hwang-ok][4] was the wife of King [Suro of Geumgwan Gaya][5] (death 199 AD).&#xA;&#xA;According to the 13th Century [Samguk Yusa (Memorabilia of the Three Kingdoms)][6] Chronicle she was a Princess of the &quot;Ayuta Kingdom&quot;, said to be a distant country. &#xA;&#xA;It is commonly (and [officially][7]) held to refer to [Ayodhya][8], India, but there are no records of this foreign voyage and marriage in Indo-Aryan history. This theory is based on 1. phonetic similarity, and 2. the twin fish symbol, but both theories don't seem to hold up.&#xA;&#xA;In ancient times the city was called [Saketa][9], not Ayodhya, but the later name did exist in Medieval times when the Chronicle was written.&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][10]][10]&#xA;&#xA;The twin fish symbol, as seen here on a gate to the tomb of King Suro, was used as the emblem of his descendants the [Gim clan of Gimhae][11].&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][12]][12]&#xA;&#xA;The Indian state of Uttar Pradesh (which includes the city of Ayodhya) uses twin fish symbology but:&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][13]][13]&#xA;&#xA;This [Emblem of Uttar Pradesh][14] was [designed in 1916][15] by the Royal Society in the United Kingdom for the (then) United Provinces of Agra and Oudh, and the pair of Matsya fish  represented the former Muslim rulers of Oudh. &#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][16]][16]&#xA;&#xA;The [Nawab of Oudh][17] themselves had **a single fish symbol**, but they were an 18th and 19th Century power.&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][18]][18]&#xA;&#xA;So that theory seems fundamentally flawed.&#xA;&#xA;There are two other theories as to her origin. Either that she came from the [Ayutthaya Kingdom][19] of Thailand -- another theory that seems flawed because the Thai city was not founded until 1350 CE, after the composition of Samguk Yusa. &#xA;&#xA;Or, that she was Tamil, from [Ayi][20], a vassal state of the [Pandya Kingdom][21] in present-day [Tamil Nadu, India][22]. The area is today's [Kanyakumari][23].&#xA;&#xA;The ancient Tamil [Pandyan Dynasty][24] ruled from 300 BCE–1650 CE and had a [Twin Fish Flag and Emblem][25]:&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][26]][26]&#xA;[![enter image description here][27]][27]&#xA;[![enter image description here][28]][28]&#xA;&#xA;Kanyakumari is said to have been called Ayuta in ancient times, and the Tamil and Korean language and cultures [are said][29] to have commonalities.&#xA;&#xA;It seems most likely to me that the Tamil theory is the strongest.&#xA;&#xA;Was she Tamil or Indo-Aryan?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; **Notes**&#xA;&#xA;&gt; There are quite a few interesting Quora discussions on the topic: [Such as this][30].&#xA;&#xA;&gt; An interesting mitochondrial DNA test from the Royal Gaya tombs is talked about [in this article][31] ([source][32], kindly provided by sempaiscuba), showing maternal DNA traceable to South or South East Asian ethnic groups like Indian, Malaysian or Thai.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; “Archaeological evidence indicates that the people of [Tamna][33] [of Jeju Island] were engaging in active trade with Han Dynasty China and Yayoi Japan, South-east-asian nations, with the Tamil Chola dynasty, as well as mainland Korea, by the 1st century AD.” So Tamil-Korean trade links have existed from ancient times.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; [This][34] page showing her tomb mentions expansions on the tomb including *&quot;a headstone and stone tablets erected in 1647 (25th year of King Injo’s reign)&quot;* and that *&quot;together with the Tomb of King Suro, the tomb area was expanded in the 28th year of King Sejong’s reign (1446) to include several auxiliary buildings&quot;* and that *&quot;Records indicate that the tombs were robbed over a century later during the Imjin War (Japanese Invasion, 1592-1598).&quot;*&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://enjoy-gimhae.org/en/수로왕릉비_영어/?ckattempt=1&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samguk_sagi&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/I6R99.jpg&#xA;  [4]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heo_Hwang-ok&#xA;  [5]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suro_of_Geumgwan_Gaya&#xA;  [6]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samguk_yusa&#xA;  [7]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_of_Heo_Hwang-ok,_Ayodhya&#xA;  [8]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayodhya&#xA;  [9]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saket&#xA;  [10]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/VPAUk.jpg&#xA;  [11]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gim_clan_of_Gimhae&#xA;  [12]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/j9wZp.jpg&#xA;  [13]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/TmVHi.jpg&#xA;  [14]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emblem_of_Uttar_Pradesh&#xA;  [15]: https://m.timesofindia.com/city/lucknow/The-emblem-story/articleshow/201009.cms&#xA;  [16]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/xCfE8.jpg&#xA;  [17]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nawab_of_Awadh&#xA;  [18]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/s5xgn.jpg&#xA;  [19]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayutthaya_Kingdom&#xA;  [20]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ay_kingdom&#xA;  [21]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandya_Kingdom&#xA;  [22]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_Nadu&#xA;  [23]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanyakumari&#xA;  [24]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandyan_dynasty&#xA;  [25]: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Twin_fish_flag_of_Pandyas.svg&#xA;  [26]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/8IXZr.jpg&#xA;  [27]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/mSDpC.jpg&#xA;  [28]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MjDMi.jpg&#xA;  [29]: https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/m.timesofindia.com/city/chennai/Korean-envoy-proud-of-his-Tamil-links/amp_articleshow/53277831.cms&#xA;  [30]: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-relationship-of-Princess-Heo-Hwang-Ok-with-India&#xA;  [31]: https://m.economictimes.com/south-koreans-may-have-indian-genes/amp_articleshow/823181.cms&#xA;  [32]: http://mengnews.joins.com/view.aspx?aid=2457473&#xA;  [33]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamna&#xA;  [34]: http://english.visitkorea.or.kr/enu/ATR/SI_EN_3_1_1_1.jsp?cid=1685172" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17822" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5312" RevisionGUID="a3621251-e391-4fd9-ad7e-8b329bbfefd6" CreationDate="2019-01-04T13:19:37.700" UserId="5431" Comment="added 109 characters in body; added 1 character in body; added 7 characters in body" Text="&gt; This question has two parts. &#xA;&#xA;&gt; **1. Did Queen Heo exist?**&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any evidence that Queen Heo was a historical figure and not just a legend?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any proof that her [tomb in Korea][1] really houses her body?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Does she appear in the [Samguk Sagi][2] or any other historical records?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any archaeological or other tangible evidence for her existence?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; **2. Where did she come from?**&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is it more likely that she was Indo-Aryan or Tamil (or Thai)?&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xA;&#xA;*Photo from Tomb in Gimhae, Korea, kindly provided by Professor Emeritus KIM Byung-Mo, senior anthropologist from Hanyang University, author of &quot;Heo Hwang-ok Route: From India to Gaya of Korea&quot;*&#xA;&#xA;Queen [Heo Hwang-ok][4] was the wife of King [Suro of Geumgwan Gaya][5] (death 199 AD).&#xA;&#xA;According to the 13th Century [Samguk Yusa (Memorabilia of the Three Kingdoms)][6] Chronicle she was a Princess of the &quot;Ayuta Kingdom&quot;, said to be a distant country. &#xA;&#xA;It is commonly (and [officially][7]) held to refer to [Ayodhya][8], India, but there are no records of this foreign voyage and marriage in Indo-Aryan history. This theory is based on 1. phonetic similarity, and 2. the twin fish symbol, but both theories don't seem to hold up.&#xA;&#xA;In ancient times the city was called [Saketa][9], not Ayodhya, but the later name did exist in Medieval times when the Chronicle was written.&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][10]][10]&#xA;&#xA;The twin fish symbol, as seen here on a gate to the tomb of King Suro, was used as the emblem of his descendants the [Gim clan of Gimhae][11].&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][12]][12]&#xA;&#xA;The Indian state of Uttar Pradesh (which includes the city of Ayodhya) uses twin fish symbology but:&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][13]][13]&#xA;&#xA;This [Emblem of Uttar Pradesh][14] was [designed in 1916][15] by the Royal Society in the United Kingdom for the (then) United Provinces of Agra and Oudh, and the pair of Matsya fish  represented the former Muslim rulers of Oudh. &#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][16]][16]&#xA;&#xA;The [Nawab of Oudh][17] themselves had **a single fish symbol**, but they were an 18th and 19th Century power *(hundreds of years after the Chronicle was written which itself was hundreds of years after the Queen's existence)*.&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][18]][18]&#xA;&#xA;So that theory seems fundamentally flawed.&#xA;&#xA;There are two other theories as to her origin. Either that she came from the [Ayutthaya Kingdom][19] of Thailand -- another theory that seems flawed because the Thai city was not founded until 1350 CE, after the composition of Samguk Yusa. &#xA;&#xA;Or, that she was Tamil, from [Ayi][20], a vassal state of the [Pandya Kingdom][21] in present-day [Tamil Nadu, India][22]. The area is today's [Kanyakumari][23].&#xA;&#xA;The ancient Tamil [Pandyan Dynasty][24] ruled from 300 BCE–1650 CE and had a [Twin Fish Flag and Emblem][25]:&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][26]][26]&#xA;[![enter image description here][27]][27]&#xA;[![enter image description here][28]][28]&#xA;&#xA;Kanyakumari is said to have been called Ayuta in ancient times, and the Tamil and Korean language and cultures [are said][29] to have commonalities.&#xA;&#xA;It seems most likely to me that the Tamil theory is the strongest.&#xA;&#xA;Was she Tamil or Indo-Aryan?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; **Notes**&#xA;&#xA;&gt; There are quite a few interesting Quora discussions on the topic: [Such as this][30].&#xA;&#xA;&gt; An interesting mitochondrial DNA test from the Royal Gaya tombs is talked about [in this article][31] ([source][32], kindly provided by sempaiscuba), showing maternal DNA traceable to South or South East Asian ethnic groups like Indian, Malaysian or Thai.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; “Archaeological evidence indicates that the people of [Tamna][33] [of Jeju Island] were engaging in active trade with Han Dynasty China and Yayoi Japan, South-east-asian nations, with the Tamil Chola dynasty, as well as mainland Korea, by the 1st century AD.” So Tamil-Korean trade links have existed from ancient times.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; [This][34] page showing her tomb mentions expansions on the tomb including *&quot;a headstone and stone tablets erected in 1647 (25th year of King Injo’s reign)&quot;* and that *&quot;together with the Tomb of King Suro, the tomb area was expanded in the 28th year of King Sejong’s reign (1446) to include several auxiliary buildings&quot;* and that *&quot;Records indicate that the tombs were robbed over a century later during the Imjin War (Japanese Invasion, 1592-1598).&quot;*&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://enjoy-gimhae.org/en/수로왕릉비_영어/?ckattempt=1&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samguk_sagi&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/I6R99.jpg&#xA;  [4]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heo_Hwang-ok&#xA;  [5]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suro_of_Geumgwan_Gaya&#xA;  [6]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samguk_yusa&#xA;  [7]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_of_Heo_Hwang-ok,_Ayodhya&#xA;  [8]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayodhya&#xA;  [9]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saket&#xA;  [10]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/VPAUk.jpg&#xA;  [11]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gim_clan_of_Gimhae&#xA;  [12]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/j9wZp.jpg&#xA;  [13]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/TmVHi.jpg&#xA;  [14]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emblem_of_Uttar_Pradesh&#xA;  [15]: https://m.timesofindia.com/city/lucknow/The-emblem-story/articleshow/201009.cms&#xA;  [16]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/xCfE8.jpg&#xA;  [17]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nawab_of_Awadh&#xA;  [18]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/s5xgn.jpg&#xA;  [19]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayutthaya_Kingdom&#xA;  [20]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ay_kingdom&#xA;  [21]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandya_Kingdom&#xA;  [22]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_Nadu&#xA;  [23]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanyakumari&#xA;  [24]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandyan_dynasty&#xA;  [25]: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Twin_fish_flag_of_Pandyas.svg&#xA;  [26]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/8IXZr.jpg&#xA;  [27]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/mSDpC.jpg&#xA;  [28]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MjDMi.jpg&#xA;  [29]: https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/m.timesofindia.com/city/chennai/Korean-envoy-proud-of-his-Tamil-links/amp_articleshow/53277831.cms&#xA;  [30]: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-relationship-of-Princess-Heo-Hwang-Ok-with-India&#xA;  [31]: https://m.economictimes.com/south-koreans-may-have-indian-genes/amp_articleshow/823181.cms&#xA;  [32]: http://mengnews.joins.com/view.aspx?aid=2457473&#xA;  [33]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamna&#xA;  [34]: http://english.visitkorea.or.kr/enu/ATR/SI_EN_3_1_1_1.jsp?cid=1685172" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17823" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5312" RevisionGUID="6858b39a-beae-4523-8a63-caee3bf5db0a" CreationDate="2019-01-04T13:24:57.260" UserId="5431" Comment="added 53 characters in body; added 30 characters in body; added 2 characters in body; deleted 8 characters in body" Text="&gt; This question has two parts. &#xA;&#xA;&gt; **1. Did Queen Heo exist?**&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any evidence that Queen Heo was a historical figure and not just a legend?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any proof that her [tomb in Korea][1] really houses her body?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Does she appear in the [Samguk Sagi][2] or any other historical records?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any archaeological or other tangible evidence for her existence?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; **2. Where did she come from?**&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is it more likely that she was Indo-Aryan or Tamil (or Thai)?&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xA;&#xA;*Photo from Tomb in Gimhae, Korea, kindly provided by Professor Emeritus KIM Byung-Mo, senior anthropologist from Hanyang University, author of &quot;Heo Hwang-ok Route: From India to Gaya of Korea&quot;*&#xA;&#xA;Queen [Heo Hwang-ok][4] was the wife of King [Suro of Geumgwan Gaya][5] (death 199 AD).&#xA;&#xA;According to the 13th Century [Samguk Yusa (Memorabilia of the Three Kingdoms)][6] Chronicle she was a Princess of the &quot;Ayuta Kingdom&quot;, said to be a distant country. &#xA;&#xA;It is commonly (and [officially][7]) held to refer to [Ayodhya][8], India, but there are no records of this foreign voyage and marriage in Indo-Aryan history. This theory is based on 1. phonetic similarity, and 2. the twin fish symbol, but both theories don't seem to hold up.&#xA;&#xA;In ancient times the city was called [Saketa][9], not Ayodhya, but the later name did exist in Medieval times when the Chronicle was written.&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][10]][10]&#xA;&#xA;The twin fish symbol, as seen here on a gate to the tomb of King Suro, was used as the emblem of his descendants the [Gim clan of Gimhae][11].&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][12]][12]&#xA;&#xA;The Indian state of Uttar Pradesh (which includes the city of Ayodhya) uses twin fish symbology but:&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][13]][13]&#xA;&#xA;This [Emblem of Uttar Pradesh][14] was [designed in 1916][15] by the Royal Society in the United Kingdom for the (then) United Provinces of Agra and Oudh, and the pair of Matsya fish  represented the former Muslim rulers of Oudh. &#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][16]][16]&#xA;&#xA;The [Nawab of Oudh][17] themselves had **a single fish symbol**, but they were an 18th and 19th Century power *(hundreds of years after the Chronicle was written which itself was hundreds of years after the Queen's existence)*.&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][18]][18]&#xA;&#xA;So that theory of Indian *(Indo-Aryan)* origin seems fundamentally flawed.&#xA;&#xA;There are two other theories as to her origin. Either that she came from the [Ayutthaya Kingdom][19] of Thailand -- another theory that seems flawed because the Thai city was not founded until 1350 CE, after the composition of Samguk Yusa. &#xA;&#xA;Or, that she was Tamil, from [Ayi][20], a vassal state of the [Pandya Kingdom][21] in present-day [Tamil Nadu, India][22]. The area is today's [Kanyakumari][23].&#xA;&#xA;The ancient Tamil [Pandyan Dynasty][24] ruled from 300 BCE–1650 CE and had a [Twin Fish Flag and Emblem][25]:&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][26]][26]&#xA;[![enter image description here][27]][27]&#xA;[![enter image description here][28]][28]&#xA;&#xA;Kanyakumari is said to have been called Ayuta in ancient times, and the Tamil and Korean language and cultures [are said][29] to have commonalities.&#xA;&#xA;It seems most likely to me that the Tamil theory is the strongest.&#xA;&#xA;Was she Tamil or Indo-Aryan?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; **Notes**&#xA;&#xA;&gt; There are quite a few interesting Quora discussions on the topic: [Such as this][30].&#xA;&#xA;&gt; An interesting mitochondrial DNA test from the Royal Gaya tombs is talked about [in this article][31] ([source][32], kindly provided by sempaiscuba◊), showing maternal DNA traceable to South or South East Asian ethnic groups like Indian, Malaysian or Thai.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; “Archaeological evidence indicates that the people of [Tamna][33] [of Jeju Island just under the Southern tip of the Korean Peninsula] were engaging in active trade with Han Dynasty China and Yayoi Japan, South-east-asian nations, with the Tamil Chola dynasty, as well as mainland Korea, by the 1st century AD.” So Tamil-Korean trade links have existed from ancient times.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; [This][34] page showing her tomb mentions expansions on the tomb including that *&quot;with the Tomb of King Suro, the tomb area was expanded in the 28th year of King Sejong’s reign (1446) to include several auxiliary buildings&quot;* and that *&quot;records indicate that the tombs were robbed over a century later during the Imjin War (Japanese Invasion, 1592-1598).&quot;* and *&quot;a headstone and stone tablets erected in 1647 (25th year of King Injo’s reign)&quot;*.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://enjoy-gimhae.org/en/수로왕릉비_영어/?ckattempt=1&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samguk_sagi&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/I6R99.jpg&#xA;  [4]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heo_Hwang-ok&#xA;  [5]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suro_of_Geumgwan_Gaya&#xA;  [6]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samguk_yusa&#xA;  [7]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_of_Heo_Hwang-ok,_Ayodhya&#xA;  [8]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayodhya&#xA;  [9]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saket&#xA;  [10]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/VPAUk.jpg&#xA;  [11]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gim_clan_of_Gimhae&#xA;  [12]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/j9wZp.jpg&#xA;  [13]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/TmVHi.jpg&#xA;  [14]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emblem_of_Uttar_Pradesh&#xA;  [15]: https://m.timesofindia.com/city/lucknow/The-emblem-story/articleshow/201009.cms&#xA;  [16]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/xCfE8.jpg&#xA;  [17]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nawab_of_Awadh&#xA;  [18]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/s5xgn.jpg&#xA;  [19]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayutthaya_Kingdom&#xA;  [20]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ay_kingdom&#xA;  [21]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandya_Kingdom&#xA;  [22]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_Nadu&#xA;  [23]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanyakumari&#xA;  [24]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandyan_dynasty&#xA;  [25]: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Twin_fish_flag_of_Pandyas.svg&#xA;  [26]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/8IXZr.jpg&#xA;  [27]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/mSDpC.jpg&#xA;  [28]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MjDMi.jpg&#xA;  [29]: https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/m.timesofindia.com/city/chennai/Korean-envoy-proud-of-his-Tamil-links/amp_articleshow/53277831.cms&#xA;  [30]: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-relationship-of-Princess-Heo-Hwang-Ok-with-India&#xA;  [31]: https://m.economictimes.com/south-koreans-may-have-indian-genes/amp_articleshow/823181.cms&#xA;  [32]: http://mengnews.joins.com/view.aspx?aid=2457473&#xA;  [33]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamna&#xA;  [34]: http://english.visitkorea.or.kr/enu/ATR/SI_EN_3_1_1_1.jsp?cid=1685172" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17824" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5312" RevisionGUID="a2e0b3ee-bb66-4805-934d-d10ffaf25799" CreationDate="2019-01-04T13:30:37.180" UserId="5431" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="&gt; This question has two parts. &#xA;&#xA;&gt; **1. Did Queen Heo exist?**&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any evidence that Queen Heo was a historical figure and not just a legend?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any proof that her [tomb in Korea][1] really houses her body?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Does she appear in the [Samguk Sagi][2] or any other historical records?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any archaeological or other tangible evidence for her existence?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; **2. Where did she come from?**&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is it more likely that she was Indo-Aryan or Tamil (or Thai)?&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xA;&#xA;*Photo from Tomb in Gimhae, Korea, kindly provided by Professor Emeritus KIM Byung-Mo, senior anthropologist from Hanyang University, author of &quot;Heo Hwang-ok Route: From India to Gaya of Korea&quot;*&#xA;&#xA;Queen [Heo Hwang-ok][4] was the wife of King [Suro of Geumgwan Gaya][5] (death 199 AD).&#xA;&#xA;According to the 13th Century [Samguk Yusa (Memorabilia of the Three Kingdoms)][6] Chronicle she was a Princess of the &quot;Ayuta Kingdom&quot;, said to be a distant country. &#xA;&#xA;It is commonly (and [officially][7]) held to refer to [Ayodhya][8], India, but there are no records of this foreign voyage and marriage in Indo-Aryan history. This theory is based on 1. phonetic similarity, and 2. the twin fish symbol, but both theories don't seem to hold up.&#xA;&#xA;In ancient times the city was called [Saketa][9], not Ayodhya, but the later name did exist in Medieval times when the Chronicle was written.&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][10]][10]&#xA;&#xA;The twin fish symbol, as seen here on a gate to the tomb of King Suro, was used as the emblem of his descendants the [Gim clan of Gimhae][11].&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][12]][12]&#xA;&#xA;The Indian state of Uttar Pradesh (which includes the city of Ayodhya) uses twin fish symbology but:&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][13]][13]&#xA;&#xA;This [Emblem of Uttar Pradesh][14] was [designed in 1916][15] by the Royal Society in the United Kingdom for the (then) United Provinces of Agra and Oudh, and the pair of Matsya fish  represented the former Muslim rulers of Oudh. &#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][16]][16]&#xA;&#xA;The [Nawab of Oudh][17] themselves had **a single fish symbol**, but they were an 18th and 19th Century power *(hundreds of years after the Chronicle was written which itself was hundreds of years after the Queen's existence)*.&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][18]][18]&#xA;&#xA;So that theory of Indian *(Indo-Aryan)* origin seems fundamentally flawed.&#xA;&#xA;There are two other theories as to her origin. Either that she came from the [Ayutthaya Kingdom][19] of Thailand -- another theory that seems flawed because the Thai city was not founded until 1350 CE, after the composition of Samguk Yusa. &#xA;&#xA;Or, that she was Tamil, from [Ayi][20], a vassal state of the [Pandya Kingdom][21] in present-day [Tamil Nadu, India][22]. The area is today's [Kanyakumari][23].&#xA;&#xA;The ancient Tamil [Pandyan Dynasty][24] ruled from 300 BCE–1650 CE and had a [Twin Fish Flag and Emblem][25]:&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][26]][26]&#xA;[![enter image description here][27]][27]&#xA;[![enter image description here][28]][28]&#xA;&#xA;Kanyakumari is said to have been called Ayuta in ancient times, and the Tamil and Korean language and cultures [are said][29] to have commonalities.&#xA;&#xA;It seems most likely to me that the Tamil theory is the strongest.&#xA;&#xA;Was she Tamil or Indo-Aryan?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; **Notes**&#xA;&#xA;&gt; There are quite a few interesting Quora discussions on the topic: [Such as this][30].&#xA;&#xA;&gt; An interesting mitochondrial DNA test from the Royal Gaya tombs is talked about [in this article][31] ([source][32], kindly provided by sempaiscuba◊), showing maternal DNA traceable to South or South East Asian ethnic groups like Indian, Malaysian or Thai.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; “Archaeological evidence indicates that the people of [Tamna][33] [of Jeju Island just under the Southern tip of the Korean Peninsula] were engaging in active trade with Han Dynasty China and Yayoi Japan, South-east-asian nations, with the Tamil Chola dynasty, as well as mainland Korea, by the 1st century AD.” So Tamil-Korean trade links have existed from ancient times.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; [This][34] page showing her tomb mentions expansions on the tomb including that *&quot;with the Tomb of King Suro, the tomb area was expanded in the 28th year of King Sejong’s reign (1446) to include several auxiliary buildings&quot;* and that *&quot;records indicate that the tombs were robbed over a century later during the Imjin War (Japanese Invasion, 1592-1598)&quot;* and *&quot;a headstone and stone tablets erected in 1647 (25th year of King Injo’s reign)&quot;*.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://enjoy-gimhae.org/en/수로왕릉비_영어/?ckattempt=1&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samguk_sagi&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/I6R99.jpg&#xA;  [4]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heo_Hwang-ok&#xA;  [5]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suro_of_Geumgwan_Gaya&#xA;  [6]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samguk_yusa&#xA;  [7]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_of_Heo_Hwang-ok,_Ayodhya&#xA;  [8]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayodhya&#xA;  [9]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saket&#xA;  [10]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/VPAUk.jpg&#xA;  [11]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gim_clan_of_Gimhae&#xA;  [12]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/j9wZp.jpg&#xA;  [13]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/TmVHi.jpg&#xA;  [14]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emblem_of_Uttar_Pradesh&#xA;  [15]: https://m.timesofindia.com/city/lucknow/The-emblem-story/articleshow/201009.cms&#xA;  [16]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/xCfE8.jpg&#xA;  [17]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nawab_of_Awadh&#xA;  [18]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/s5xgn.jpg&#xA;  [19]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayutthaya_Kingdom&#xA;  [20]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ay_kingdom&#xA;  [21]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandya_Kingdom&#xA;  [22]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_Nadu&#xA;  [23]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanyakumari&#xA;  [24]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandyan_dynasty&#xA;  [25]: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Twin_fish_flag_of_Pandyas.svg&#xA;  [26]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/8IXZr.jpg&#xA;  [27]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/mSDpC.jpg&#xA;  [28]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MjDMi.jpg&#xA;  [29]: https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/m.timesofindia.com/city/chennai/Korean-envoy-proud-of-his-Tamil-links/amp_articleshow/53277831.cms&#xA;  [30]: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-relationship-of-Princess-Heo-Hwang-Ok-with-India&#xA;  [31]: https://m.economictimes.com/south-koreans-may-have-indian-genes/amp_articleshow/823181.cms&#xA;  [32]: http://mengnews.joins.com/view.aspx?aid=2457473&#xA;  [33]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamna&#xA;  [34]: http://english.visitkorea.or.kr/enu/ATR/SI_EN_3_1_1_1.jsp?cid=1685172" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17825" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1944" RevisionGUID="ecaacacf-0b27-46c7-85c5-17660ea80050" CreationDate="2019-01-04T17:03:10.713" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="17826" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5359" RevisionGUID="3a5bb78b-b828-41d2-9e8f-effb5388b16a" CreationDate="2019-01-04T19:01:44.540" UserId="5247" Text="There's maybe one source from all of the surviving literature that *may* express a pre-Christian British myth with an 'evil' deity, from Plutarch's *De Defectu Oraculorum, Vol V*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 18 1 Demetrius said that among the islands lying near Britain were many isolated, having few or no inhabitants, some of which bore the names of divinities or heroes. He himself, by the emperor's order, had made a voyage for inquiry and observation to the nearest of these islands which had only a few inhabitants, holy men who were all held inviolate by the Britons. Shortly after his arrival there occurred a great tumult in the air and many portents; Fviolent winds suddenly swept down and lightning-flashes darted to earth. When these abated, the people of the island said that the passing of someone of the mightier souls had befallen. &quot;For,&quot; said they, &quot;as a lamp when it is being lighted has no terrors, but when it goes out is distressing to many, so the great souls have a kindling into life that is gentle and inoffensive, but their passing and dissolution often, as at the present moment, fosters tempests and storms, and often infects the air with pestilential properties.&quot; Moreover, they said that **in this part of the world there is one island where Cronus is confined, guarded while he sleeps by Briareus; for his sleep has been devised as a bondage for him, and round about him are many demigods as attendants and servants.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This statement needs a fair amount of picking apart, for instance, this must all be **very heavily paraphrased and Hellenised**, obviously there was no myth of Cronus or Briareus in Britain, but whatever Gods Demetrius learned of must have been sufficiently similar to the pair that he was able to explain the myth to Plutarch in these terms.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**I think Cronus at least and maybe Briareus could fulfil the modern idea of being 'evil', so it stands to reason whatever deity was being referenced here likely does as well.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the historicity of this text, we have some decent evidence; for one Demetrius (a grammarian) appears to have gone to Britain as part of Agricola's campaign of Romanisation in Britain as per *Tacitus' The Life of Gnaeus Iulius Agricola*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 21 He likewise provided a liberal education for the sons of the chiefs, and showed such a preference for the natural powers of the Britons over the industry of the Gauls that they who lately disdained the tongue of Rome now coveted its eloquence. Hence, too, a liking sprang up for our style of dress, and the “toga” became fashionable. Step by step they were led to things which dispose to vice, the lounge, the bath, the elegant banquet. All this in their ignorance they called civilisation, when it was but a part of their servitude.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As well as that we actually may have [an inscription made by Demetrius himself][1]. In 1840 a bronze plate was found in York with the following inscription:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ὠκεανῶι | καὶ Τηθύι | Δημήτρι[ος] (To Ocean and Tethys Demetrius (set&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this up))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The two Deities a Greek man would be making an offering two in return for a safe voyage home.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;None the ess, take this all with a very skeptical mind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We can't really pinpoint what island Demetrius met these Holy men, but it must of been south of Lothian as Plutarch puts their dinner together at 83/84 AD and Agricola's campaign was in East Scotland by 83 AD. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;*Painting by Peter Paul Rubens of Cronus devouring one of his children.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://romaninscriptionsofbritain.org/inscriptions/663&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/XMMys.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/LRaQ1.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17828" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5361" RevisionGUID="71a91edb-0587-4823-9997-446e8517a223" CreationDate="2019-01-05T13:19:51.213" UserId="5687" Text="In Euripides' *Ion*, we find the following lines in a dialogue between Ion and his mother Creusa (Coleridge's translation):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Creusa:** Be witness she who slew the Gorgon,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Ion:** What meanest thou?&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Creusa:** She that on my native rocks makes the olive-clad hill her seat. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm with Ion: what (or who) does Creusa mean? Not Perseus, usually credited as the Gorgon's slayer, but wouldn't be called &quot;she&quot;. Is it Athena, who bore the Gorgon's head on the Aegis, who's associated with olive trees, and who plays a significant role in *Ion*? (Or as an unlikely possibility, Perseus's daughter Gorgophone, whose name means &quot;Gorgon-slayer&quot;?)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does this reference some version of the Gorgon myth in which Perseus wasn't the slayer? Perhaps even a version where the Gorgon wasn't identified with Medusa?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17829" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5361" RevisionGUID="71a91edb-0587-4823-9997-446e8517a223" CreationDate="2019-01-05T13:19:51.213" UserId="5687" Text="Who is &quot;she who slew the Gorgon&quot; in Euripides?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17830" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5361" RevisionGUID="71a91edb-0587-4823-9997-446e8517a223" CreationDate="2019-01-05T13:19:51.213" UserId="5687" Text="|greek|medusa|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17831" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5361" RevisionGUID="96aeb6e2-d176-46f8-b9e1-9fd02072a785" CreationDate="2019-01-05T13:44:28.060" UserId="5687" Comment="Added Greek text." Text="In Euripides' *Ion*, we find the following lines in a dialogue between Ion and his mother Creusa ([Perseus Digital Library text](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Eur.+Ion+1474&amp;fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0109) in parallel with Coleridge's translation):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Κρέουσα:** ἴστω Γοργοφόνα —&lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Creusa:** Be witness she who slew the Gorgon,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Ἴων:** τί τοῦτ᾽ ἔλεξας;&lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Ion:** What meanest thou?&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Κρέουσα:** ἃ σκοπέλοις ἐπ᾽ ἐμοῖς / τὸν ἐλαιοφυῆ πάγον / θάσσει —&lt;br/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Creusa:** She that on my native rocks makes the olive-clad hill her seat. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm with Ion: what (or who) does Creusa mean? Not Perseus, usually credited as the Gorgon's slayer, but wouldn't be called &quot;she&quot;. Is it Athena, who bore the Gorgon's head on the Aegis, who's associated with olive trees, and who plays a significant role in *Ion*? (Or as an unlikely possibility, Perseus's daughter Gorgophone, whose name means &quot;Gorgon-slayer&quot;?)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does this reference some version of the Gorgon myth in which Perseus wasn't the slayer? Perhaps even a version where the Gorgon wasn't identified with Medusa?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17832" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5362" RevisionGUID="08820840-304b-4bd7-a88c-1a5ed7cce656" CreationDate="2019-01-05T15:06:15.377" UserId="5687" Text="According to the [1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/1911_Encyclop%C3%A6dia_Britannica/Gorgon,_Gorgons), it seems that **yes**, it means Athena, and **yes**, it's a version of the &quot;gorgon&quot; myth distinct from Medusa and Perseus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Attic tradition, reproduced in Euripides (*Ion* 1002), regarded the Gorgon as a monster, produced by Gaea to aid her sons the giants against the gods and slain by Athena (the passage is a *locus classicus* on the aegis of Athena).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are several sources cited, several not in English; I haven't yet puzzled out any *specific* source for this &quot;Attic tradition&quot;, with the mention of Gaea and the giants, but the first citation ([Harrison 1903](https://books.google.com/books?id=BEwIQs5xY_8C&amp;lpg=PA191&amp;vq=gorgon&amp;pg=PA187#v=snippet&amp;q=gorgon&amp;f=false)) makes some interesting claims relevant to this question: namely, that the *idea* of a Gorgon, a detached head with a horrible face, predates any particular myth." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17833" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5363" RevisionGUID="b89e16b6-c299-44d6-963b-bbe45c7721f1" CreationDate="2019-01-05T21:01:14.787" UserId="5689" Text="Is there any god/goddess who had the power of clones or represented them?&#xD;&#xA;Like Dionysus is a god of wine and many other related things, is there a god of clones/duplicates/mirror images across any mythology? Even a monster or creature is ok." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17834" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5363" RevisionGUID="b89e16b6-c299-44d6-963b-bbe45c7721f1" CreationDate="2019-01-05T21:01:14.787" UserId="5689" Text="God/Goddess of clones or duplicates" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17835" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5363" RevisionGUID="b89e16b6-c299-44d6-963b-bbe45c7721f1" CreationDate="2019-01-05T21:01:14.787" UserId="5689" Text="|myth-identification|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17839" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5350" RevisionGUID="548c736c-c9bf-456f-9a88-1850f7c2b06a" CreationDate="2019-01-06T15:51:13.950" UserId="1317" Comment="Minor fixes" Text="What appears to have happened is a 20th Century conflation of two different legends, one involving leprechauns and gold and another involving rainbows and gold.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is really no evidence associating leprechauns with rainbows before the 20th century. (A different answer quotes a _Time_ magazine article from 1952). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sole folklore-related Google Books result from the 19th century containing both &quot;rainbow&quot; and &quot;leprechaun&quot; comes from _Irish Melodies_, a compendium of poems by Thomas Moore, but  a look at [the actual page](https://books.google.com/books?id=Z-ZTAAAAcAAJ&amp;pg=PA211&amp;dq=leprechaun+rainbow) is disappointing: the end of one poem mentions a rainbow while a footnote to the next poem mentions a leprechaun. It's just a typographical coincidence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An 1851 book of Northern mythology talks about pots of gold at the ends of rainbows as coming from Germanic myth:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to a popular belief in Germany, Denmark, and England, a golden cup or hidden treasure lies where the rainbow apparently touches the ground.  This seems a remnant of the belief in Mimir's spring, in which wisdom's golden treasure was concealed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-- Benjamin  Thorpe, _Northern Mythology_, London, 1851, [p. 158](https://books.google.com/books?id=sIBpAAAAcAAJ&amp;pg=PA158&amp;dq=gold+rainbow+mimir)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thorpe refers to [Mimir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mímir)'s well, which lies near the Jotunheim end of the rainbow bridge Bifrost. No leprechauns here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_[The Tree of Myth](https://books.google.com/books?id=maFZAAAAMAAJ&amp;pg=PA147&amp;dq=rainbow+&quot;pot+of+gold&quot;)_, an 1889 book of folklore by Charles de Berard Mills, states:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Children believe at this day that a golden cup or bag of gold lies at the end of a rainbow. The story comes from the ancient sun-myth so widely diffused, of the golden orb sinking into the waters of ocean or stream or lake.  In one transformation it was the legend of a golden treasure buried in the Rhine, as we have it in the [Niebelungen Lay](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nibelungenlied), then finally, changed as it is in the nursery tale, we see the old myth again. No leprechauns here, either.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Leprechaun gold is well-hidden and guarded. It doesn't have a rainbow directing the whole world to its location:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; If you could only catch the leprechaun at his work and hold him, he would tell you where the crock of gold, his hidden treasure, lies hidden. Nor would it turn into fairy-gold, once found. But the leprechaun is artful and plays shabby tricks sometimes. He was once caught by a peasant, and in return for his release indicated where a crock of gold lay. It was under a spike of ragweed in a thirty-acre field. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; -- &quot;[Irish Superstitions, Spells, and Charms](https://books.google.com/books?id=L6dXAAAAYAAJ&amp;pg=PA127&amp;dq=leprechaun++gold)&quot;,  Katherine Tynan Hickson, _The Outlook_ , collected in _Current Literature_, 1895&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice you don't find the leprechaun's gold just lying around at the end of the rainbow, you have to kidnap the creature and make him tell you where the gold is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a good segue to what appears to be what I think is the point of conflation, which is the 1947 Broadway musical _[Finian's Rainbow](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finian%27s_Rainbow)_,  by E. Y. Harburg and Burton Lane. It was a smash hit that ran for 725 performances, and was later made into a 1968 movie starring Fred Astaire and Petula Clark.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Ever since I was 2, you've been seeing leprechauns and rainbows over your whiskey jug.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The play revolves around a pot of gold that Finian McLonergan stole from a leprechaun in Ireland, then brought across the Atlantic to Rainbow Valley, Missitucky. He hopes to bury it near Fort Knox in hopes the gold will multiply. But Og the leprechaun follows Finian to America trying to get his gold back. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice it's not said the gold was found ***at*** the end of the rainbow...instead, Finian brought the gold ***to*** the end of the rainbow. Nevertheless the opening number &quot;Look To The Rainbow&quot; uses the rainbow as a metaphor for a dream to be followed. All of the elements swirl together and it looks like that's how this entered popular folklore.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17843" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="4816" RevisionGUID="7a813302-65ef-4a4b-b40d-2ccd251f8e21" CreationDate="2019-01-07T07:17:57.010" UserId="3315" Comment="tags edited" Text="|modern-influence|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17844" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4816" RevisionGUID="7a813302-65ef-4a4b-b40d-2ccd251f8e21" CreationDate="2019-01-07T07:17:57.010" Comment="Proposed by 3315 approved by 2807, -1 edit id of 1693" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17845" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="4816" RevisionGUID="f62892b4-59ec-403e-a13e-1a93a4b6a519" CreationDate="2019-01-07T07:17:57.010" UserId="108" Comment="tags edited" Text="|modern-influence|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17849" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="2723" RevisionGUID="e4bf14f1-68ee-45a9-92a5-945c6506a921" CreationDate="2019-01-07T14:02:05.417" UserId="-1" Comment="74" />
  <row Id="17852" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="2515" RevisionGUID="ad8b1318-507c-4b2e-a6fb-060b0793e783" CreationDate="2019-01-07T23:16:43.680" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="17854" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5368" RevisionGUID="732e1959-6ef1-4979-873a-bac9ef2e3863" CreationDate="2019-01-09T05:52:38.060" UserId="5093" Text="In Greek mythology there are many prophecys. Usually inspute of someones efort to prevent it, what is prophesied still happens.&#xA;As far as I'm aware he only one to successfully avoid a prophecy was Zeus, than he swallowed Metis and there son was never born, therefore he couldn't overthrow Zeus. &#xA;Are there any instances in Greek mythology of successfully defying a prophecy. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17855" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5368" RevisionGUID="732e1959-6ef1-4979-873a-bac9ef2e3863" CreationDate="2019-01-09T05:52:38.060" UserId="5093" Text="Are there any instances of defying a prophecy" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17856" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5368" RevisionGUID="732e1959-6ef1-4979-873a-bac9ef2e3863" CreationDate="2019-01-09T05:52:38.060" UserId="5093" Text="|greek|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17858" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="1664" RevisionGUID="21346b79-f3b3-4e0c-bf97-ffae03ee219e" CreationDate="2019-01-09T14:56:46.273" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="17859" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5368" RevisionGUID="f26c383a-e73b-418c-961a-3065ba1ff7c9" CreationDate="2019-01-09T14:59:25.910" UserId="771" Comment="copyediting" Text="In Greek mythology, there are many prophecies. Usually, in spite of someone's effort to prevent it, what is prophesized still happens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as I'm aware, the only one to successfully avoid a prophecy was Zeus. He swallowed Metis and their son was never born, therefore he couldn't overthrow Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any instances in Greek mythology of successfully defying a prophecy? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17860" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5368" RevisionGUID="f26c383a-e73b-418c-961a-3065ba1ff7c9" CreationDate="2019-01-09T14:59:25.910" UserId="771" Comment="copyediting" Text="Are there any instances of defying a prophecy?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17861" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5368" RevisionGUID="f26c383a-e73b-418c-961a-3065ba1ff7c9" CreationDate="2019-01-09T14:59:25.910" Comment="Proposed by 771 approved by 183 edit id of 1694" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17862" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5369" RevisionGUID="f51e94af-393f-4cf5-921e-b126fa6fe2cc" CreationDate="2019-01-09T15:40:16.283" UserId="5700" Text="I'm working on a Homebrew D&amp;D campaign and have always thought the legends of King Arthur and the knights of the round table were cool. I planned on basing one of my kingdoms on them but didn't want it to be immediately obvious that the characters are from the legends. I'm looking for alternate names that might hint at all the major characters and locations like Arthur, Merlin, Morgana, Lancelot, Mordred, Guinevere, Camelot, etc." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17863" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5369" RevisionGUID="f51e94af-393f-4cf5-921e-b126fa6fe2cc" CreationDate="2019-01-09T15:40:16.283" UserId="5700" Text="What are some alternate names for characters of Arthurian legend?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17864" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5369" RevisionGUID="f51e94af-393f-4cf5-921e-b126fa6fe2cc" CreationDate="2019-01-09T15:40:16.283" UserId="5700" Text="|arthurian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17865" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5370" RevisionGUID="d80bc49d-6dbf-48c4-bd59-9ad4f6cc129c" CreationDate="2019-01-09T23:49:23.157" UserId="5247" Text="Maybe use earlier Welsh forms of the names where possible? &#xA;&#xA;Such as Artur/Arthur, Merlin/Myrddin, Gwenhwyfar/Guinevere, Caer Lleon/Camelot?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17866" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5371" RevisionGUID="5d983016-6da2-48f3-863a-8acf91c74d1c" CreationDate="2019-01-10T11:18:15.090" UserId="201" Text="Using any English/Welsh/Anglo, Teutonic, or Romance variant of the legendary names will likely have enough similarities to clue in your players quickly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you *really* want to disguise the nature of the names, try their *meanings* instead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Arthur: &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.babynames.com/name/arthur&quot;&gt;Bear&lt;/a&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - Guinevere: &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.babynames.com/name/guinevere&quot;&gt;White&#xD;&#xA;   ghost&lt;/a&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - Lancelot du Lac: &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.babynames.com/name/lancelot&quot;&gt;Land&lt;/a&gt; (and his last name means &quot;of the lake&quot;)&#xD;&#xA; - Myrddin, or Merlin: &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.babynames.com/name/myrddin&quot;&gt;Sea fort&lt;/a&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - Camelot is the castle, so you could go for *fair land, promised&#xD;&#xA;   land,* and the like.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You could then use a second language to disguise the meaning name: Urso for bear, Fantome for ghost, Terra for land, and so on. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17867" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5372" RevisionGUID="83f33816-01bf-4177-bb7b-bdaa0b0bdb80" CreationDate="2019-01-10T18:14:01.740" UserId="5704" Text="I have this necklace that I bought at antique shop long ago and I’ve had no luck with identifying what the creature may be. Does this happen to look familiar to anyone? ![enter image description here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/rtuXx.jpg)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17868" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5372" RevisionGUID="83f33816-01bf-4177-bb7b-bdaa0b0bdb80" CreationDate="2019-01-10T18:14:01.740" UserId="5704" Text="Please help identify creature/character on necklace!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17869" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5372" RevisionGUID="83f33816-01bf-4177-bb7b-bdaa0b0bdb80" CreationDate="2019-01-10T18:14:01.740" UserId="5704" Text="|myth-identification|mythical-creatures|roman|egyptian|persian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17873" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5372" RevisionGUID="00c12bdf-c572-40ee-9918-7fe401708f94" CreationDate="2019-01-10T19:14:22.400" UserId="5704" Comment="edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|mythical-creatures|egyptian|japanese|chinese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17875" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5372" RevisionGUID="73a3a0ff-ad70-4781-bdc0-a7617c759de1" CreationDate="2019-01-10T22:12:50.543" UserId="5704" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|myth-identification|mythical-creatures|roman|persian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17881" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5375" RevisionGUID="aa235ac9-22de-44a7-b3e3-37311ac527c7" CreationDate="2019-01-12T15:48:10.783" UserId="1317" Text="Since this is a moderm piece of jewelry, it's going to be hard to give any answer other than &quot;the whim of the artist&quot;. However, the interwoven animal motifs make me think this is inspired by [Viking art](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_art).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My modern eyes see the animal heads as canine, but they most resemble dragon heads appearing in [ this article](https://sonsofvikings.com/blogs/history/viking-symbols-and-meanings#dragons).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is detail from the prow of a Viking ship, famous for having carved dragon heads:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![carvings on prow of Oseburg ship]( https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/35/Osebergskipet-Detail.jpg/960px-Osebergskipet-Detail.jpg)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't  know; they could be dragons but also seahorses.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This was also seen in Anglo-Saxon art such as this stone carving, where someone has colored the image to show the tendrils:&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;![carving on St. Oswald's Priory cross](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/14/St_Oswald%27s_Priory_Anglo-Saxon_cross.jpg/1024px-St_Oswald%27s_Priory_Anglo-Saxon_cross.jpg)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you do a Google image search for &quot;norse dragon&quot; you will see all sorts of Viking-inspired art by recent artists, of varying quality (and varying taste -- be forewarned, you can't unsee some of it), but you will also see more examples of ancient Norse carving of this sort." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17882" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5375" RevisionGUID="2615c79a-8fc5-428b-bfe0-93b0b90d528f" CreationDate="2019-01-12T15:59:26.940" UserId="1317" Comment="edited body" Text="Since this is a modern piece of jewelry, it's going to be hard to give any answer other than &quot;the whim of the artist&quot;. However, the interwoven animal motifs make me think this is inspired by [Viking art](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_art).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My modern eyes see the animal heads as canine, but they most resemble dragon heads appearing in [ this article](https://sonsofvikings.com/blogs/history/viking-symbols-and-meanings#dragons).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is detail from the prow of a Viking ship, famous for having carved dragon heads:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![carvings on prow of Oseburg ship]( https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/35/Osebergskipet-Detail.jpg/960px-Osebergskipet-Detail.jpg)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't  know; they could be dragons but also seahorses.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This was also seen in Anglo-Saxon art such as this stone carving, where someone has colored the image to show the tendrils:&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;![carving on St. Oswald's Priory cross](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/14/St_Oswald%27s_Priory_Anglo-Saxon_cross.jpg/1024px-St_Oswald%27s_Priory_Anglo-Saxon_cross.jpg)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you do a Google image search for &quot;norse dragon&quot; you will see all sorts of Viking-inspired art by recent artists, of varying quality (and varying taste -- be forewarned, you can't unsee some of it), but you will also see more examples of ancient Norse carving of this sort." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17883" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5376" RevisionGUID="619c13a3-af0b-4fb4-b6ef-21dce31caae2" CreationDate="2019-01-12T16:39:59.613" UserId="5710" Text="In the eddic poem Vǫlundarkviða, Vǫlundr escapes from his island flying. Some say he escaped by magic or even with a flying machine, since he was very skilful bulding stuff. How can one understand both ideas using the original resource?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17884" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5376" RevisionGUID="619c13a3-af0b-4fb4-b6ef-21dce31caae2" CreationDate="2019-01-12T16:39:59.613" UserId="5710" Text="How did Vǫlundr escaped?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17885" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5376" RevisionGUID="619c13a3-af0b-4fb4-b6ef-21dce31caae2" CreationDate="2019-01-12T16:39:59.613" UserId="5710" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17886" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5376" RevisionGUID="3ef045ca-2bf5-4c0f-97c0-fac629117824" CreationDate="2019-01-12T16:52:19.450" UserId="5710" Comment="added 175 characters in body" Text="In the eddic poem Vǫlundarkviða, Vǫlundr escapes from his island flying. Some say he escaped by magic or even with a flying machine, since he was very skilful bulding stuff. How can one understand both ideas using the original resource?&#xA;&#xA;&quot;'Vel ek', kvað Vǫlundr, 'verða ek á fitjumþeim er mik Níðaðarnámu rekkar.' Hlæjandi Vǫlundrhófsk at lofti, grátandi Bǫðvildrgekk ór eyju, tregði fǫr friðilsok fǫður reiði.&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17887" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5377" RevisionGUID="f97de865-8560-4ebd-8b15-193912dea19b" CreationDate="2019-01-13T02:00:51.293" UserId="5714" Text="Well, for one the English term &quot;giant&quot; is vague and generic: it merely means taller than average which is why a pro basketball player can be called giant (and none of them even make it to 8 ft.) and folkloric tales of people many entire body lengths taller than average are also called giants.&#xD;&#xA;The answer is that Genesis 6 is the only reliable reference to Nephilim and it provides us no physical description of them at all. Also, the image you have is of Goliath but he was either just shy of 7 ft. or just shy of 10 ft. (depending of Greek or Hebrew manuscripts) but since the average Hebrew male of biblical days was 5.5 ft. (so women averaged even less) then even a 6.5 ft. warrior was a &quot;giant.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;Lastly, Goliath was a Philistine and they were considered Anakim and there is no relation between them and Nephilim. Plus the problem is that some use the English word &quot;giant&quot; to pseudo-translate both the strictly pre-flood &quot;Nephilim&quot; and the post-flood &quot;Rephaim&quot; and there is no relation between these either." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17888" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5376" RevisionGUID="b56a47f7-93a7-403b-8300-ac9c74574aa6" CreationDate="2019-01-13T12:17:25.467" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17889" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5378" RevisionGUID="76daf35a-10e9-419d-af68-3b07f5a00c00" CreationDate="2019-01-13T21:26:21.437" UserId="5716" Text="New here. I did search for this in several different forms and places. Not sure if this is the right place, but I saw similar questions here, so I'll give it a shot.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm looking for the word for a demon, or just an evil creature, that feeds off of person-to-item attachment.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If I need to be more specific, this creature will literally eat the attachment off of an item. Given a prized possession, say a charm passed down to you from your mother, it will eat the history (therefore eating part of your relationship?) so that it's just some old piece of metal your mom found. A souvenir from that trip you took a few years ago? Just something cheap and pretty you found at a store. You don't lose any memories, but the memories no longer matter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If this does not exist already, what's the closest existing thing, and what new name would it be given?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Sorry if some of this doesn't make sense - I'm happy to answer any questions, or edit/remove the question if there's a problem! One name I've been suggested is &quot;attachment distorter&quot;.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17890" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5378" RevisionGUID="76daf35a-10e9-419d-af68-3b07f5a00c00" CreationDate="2019-01-13T21:26:21.437" UserId="5716" Text="Creature that feeds off personal attachment?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17891" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5378" RevisionGUID="76daf35a-10e9-419d-af68-3b07f5a00c00" CreationDate="2019-01-13T21:26:21.437" UserId="5716" Text="|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17892" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5378" RevisionGUID="6433d68a-16bc-43d5-86c6-08c435939726" CreationDate="2019-01-13T22:29:54.530" UserId="5716" Comment="edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17893" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5379" RevisionGUID="0911a916-36bd-4cac-b5b5-b8d4aad314d7" CreationDate="2019-01-14T05:42:55.053" UserId="5718" Text="The mortal [Medea][1], as described in [Wikipedia][2], does not appear to characterize the lines in Alexander Pope's Dunciad:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As one by one, at dread Medea's strain,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The sick'ning stars fade off th' ethereal plain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's the use of the word *strain* and its multiple meanings that suggests there could have been another aspect of Medea known only to the poet, or there was another meaning of the word back in 1728.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Is *strain* her willing, or is she singing some dread dirge?&#xD;&#xA;Her herbal medicines were mostly of a &quot;beneficial&quot; nature, but could she be straining the stars (her enemies?) into some kind of poisonous concoction?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2935/why-does-medea-escape-punishment&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medea" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17894" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5379" RevisionGUID="0911a916-36bd-4cac-b5b5-b8d4aad314d7" CreationDate="2019-01-14T05:42:55.053" UserId="5718" Text="Medea in the Dunciad" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17895" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5379" RevisionGUID="0911a916-36bd-4cac-b5b5-b8d4aad314d7" CreationDate="2019-01-14T05:42:55.053" UserId="5718" Text="|greek|interpretation|argonauts|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17897" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5379" RevisionGUID="37df9894-bda5-470d-b9c8-d89c683d7b55" CreationDate="2019-01-14T09:04:56.883" UserId="2807" Comment="Added 'medea' tag to question" Text="|greek|interpretation|argonauts|medea|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17898" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5379" RevisionGUID="63832bf6-3c81-482d-877e-cafceb73c707" CreationDate="2019-01-14T09:05:11.420" UserId="108" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="The mortal [Medea][1], as described in [Wikipedia][2], does not appear to characterize the lines in Alexander Pope's *Dunciad*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As one by one, at dread Medea's strain,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The sick'ning stars fade off th' ethereal plain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's the use of the word *strain* and its multiple meanings that suggests there could have been another aspect of Medea known only to the poet, or there was another meaning of the word back in 1728.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Is *strain* her willing, or is she singing some dread dirge?&#xD;&#xA;Her herbal medicines were mostly of a &quot;beneficial&quot; nature, but could she be straining the stars (her enemies?) into some kind of poisonous concoction?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2935/why-does-medea-escape-punishment&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medea" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17899" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5380" RevisionGUID="050fbc6b-96c2-4ba4-98d9-2bbc13a6a137" CreationDate="2019-01-14T11:53:31.903" UserId="5720" Text="I am not sure I know of an creature/entity that meets your conditions, there are a number of [mythological creatures][1] that eat and/or feed of dreams such as the Baku but they are not eating memories, well maybe they eat the memories of your dreams and/or nightmares.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know there was a book [The Memory Eater][2] that might be closer to what you are after. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://listverse.com/2014/01/21/10-ancient-legends-about-dreams/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.amazon.com/Memory-Eater-Stories-Erase-Future/dp/098566620X" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17900" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5381" RevisionGUID="b5350ffc-442f-4ab8-a0b1-a219a82d65fe" CreationDate="2019-01-15T04:38:54.070" UserId="5722" Text="sea urchin[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/zLbXd.jpg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;OR if looking for a true plant outside of water:&#xD;&#xA;soursop, durian and rambutan are all 'spikey' and have claims of anti-cancer properties&#xD;&#xA;BUT...the sea urchin spines do sting and they are high in protein and omega-3" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17901" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5376" RevisionGUID="dda124f4-30a4-4111-9afd-500074e36947" CreationDate="2019-01-15T11:44:54.070" UserId="5541" Comment="Corrected some typos" Text="In the eddic poem Vǫlundarkviða, Vǫlundr escapes from his island flying. Some say he escaped by magic or even with a flying machine, since he was very skillful at building stuff. How can one understand both ideas using the original resource?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;'Vel ek', kvað Vǫlundr, 'verða ek á fitjumþeim er mik Níðaðarnámu rekkar.' Hlæjandi Vǫlundrhófsk at lofti, grátandi Bǫðvildrgekk ór eyju, tregði fǫr friðilsok fǫður reiði.&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17902" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5376" RevisionGUID="dda124f4-30a4-4111-9afd-500074e36947" CreationDate="2019-01-15T11:44:54.070" UserId="5541" Comment="Corrected some typos" Text="How did Vǫlundr escape?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17903" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5376" RevisionGUID="dda124f4-30a4-4111-9afd-500074e36947" CreationDate="2019-01-15T11:44:54.070" Comment="Proposed by 5541 approved by 2807, 666 edit id of 1696" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17904" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5382" RevisionGUID="ed0c46f3-1755-4023-8407-f326ba22ffb8" CreationDate="2019-01-15T13:40:11.613" UserId="5723" Text="So recently i have seen in films and series about this oddities that exist in our reality because people believe in them. They may exist through urban legends, stories passed by generations, and stuff like that. I just wanna know what to specifically call them." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17905" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5382" RevisionGUID="ed0c46f3-1755-4023-8407-f326ba22ffb8" CreationDate="2019-01-15T13:40:11.613" UserId="5723" Text="What is the specific term for those creatures that exist because people believe in them?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17906" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5382" RevisionGUID="ed0c46f3-1755-4023-8407-f326ba22ffb8" CreationDate="2019-01-15T13:40:11.613" UserId="5723" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17907" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5383" RevisionGUID="585ecd74-e2b0-4855-8de6-f6c7bba1efd2" CreationDate="2019-01-15T14:33:42.267" UserId="3854" Text="The dragon like head and long coiling body suggest Jörmungandr the world serpent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It could also be Nidhogg, the dragon which gnaws on the roots of the world tree.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17913" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="1526" RevisionGUID="26d6709d-ac21-4c0e-a335-7dd56ee6016d" CreationDate="2019-01-16T06:03:09.297" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="17915" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3358" RevisionGUID="1f536773-2b63-402a-ab2a-a6e3f1832051" CreationDate="2019-01-16T06:03:39.483" UserId="5693" Comment="fixed typos" Text="The Yamata no Orochi (八岐大蛇) is actually ‘the flood myth’ of Japan. The 8 heads of Orochi are actually 8 rivers. Can’t remember the source, will update again if possible." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17916" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3358" RevisionGUID="1f536773-2b63-402a-ab2a-a6e3f1832051" CreationDate="2019-01-16T06:03:39.483" Comment="Proposed by 5693 approved by 666, 108 edit id of 1697" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17918" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5386" RevisionGUID="2501ebb4-05a1-4d24-bd0f-75754daa863f" CreationDate="2019-01-17T13:03:11.607" UserId="5594" Text="We say an A400M Atlas airplane flying the other day, and my colleague said &quot;It's so slow&quot;. I told him &quot;It's Atlas, not &lt;fastestMythicalCharacter&gt;!&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I ended up using the modern superhero [Flash][1], but I would really like to use a character from Hellenic Mythology...Any ideas?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_(comics)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17919" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5386" RevisionGUID="2501ebb4-05a1-4d24-bd0f-75754daa863f" CreationDate="2019-01-17T13:03:11.607" UserId="5594" Text="Who was the fastest character in Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17920" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5386" RevisionGUID="2501ebb4-05a1-4d24-bd0f-75754daa863f" CreationDate="2019-01-17T13:03:11.607" UserId="5594" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17922" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5387" RevisionGUID="acb8812f-23e4-4300-88c9-97f44be2902a" CreationDate="2019-01-17T14:45:09.233" UserId="5727" Text="As other users have said, the characteristic of being hostile to the sunlight is not unique to vampires, it is common in many creatures in folklore from around the world. In the case of the Christianized vampire of Western European literature and mythos, I assume it’s probably a metaphor as God and his angels are seen as the light of the heavens and vampires are evil creatures of the night. Therefore vampires being exposed to light, a holy symbol, harms them. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17923" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5386" RevisionGUID="2a8d5f09-34e9-4163-91ca-854bfc10f8b4" CreationDate="2019-01-17T14:52:07.407" UserId="5594" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="We say an A400M Atlas airplane flying the other day, and my colleague said &quot;It's so slow&quot;. I told him &quot;It's Atlas, not `&lt;fastestMythicalCharacter&gt;`!&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I ended up using the modern superhero [Flash][1], but I would really like to use a character from Hellenic Mythology...Any ideas?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_(comics)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17924" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5388" RevisionGUID="9c65af29-2bb5-4cbd-85e6-21d5c2dea4a5" CreationDate="2019-01-17T15:07:18.173" UserId="5541" Text="The first that comes in mind is &#xD;&#xA;## Hermes##&#xD;&#xA;As the emissary and messenger of the gods, he sure has this position because of his unprecedented speed, as his [theoi page][1] lists, his attributes contained winged boots that are of course associated with speed. One of his sacred animals is the hare, well known for its speed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another good competitor would be &#xD;&#xA;## Helios ##&#xD;&#xA;The sun titan-god that dedicates each day driving his chariot across the sky. But its speed depends on his horses then.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And if you want one historical but still epic if not mythic guy, you can count on&#xD;&#xA;## Pheidippides &#xD;&#xA;Who was a simple [herald][2] who ran from Marathon to announce their victory over Persia to Athenians. He died heroically right after the announcement (Adrenalin, you'll say). This story later inspired the Marathon sport discipline.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/HermesTreasures.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://Pheidippides" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17926" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5389" RevisionGUID="575765fd-f2c0-4f5e-b857-7710c2e7043c" CreationDate="2019-01-17T21:34:53.477" UserId="5726" Text="That would have to be Raktabīja&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Hindu mythology, Raktabīja was an asura (loosely translated as demon) who fought with Shumbha and Nishumbha against Goddess Durga and Goddess Kali or Goddess Chamunda. Raktabīja had a boon that whenever a drop of his blood fell on the ground, a duplicate Raktabīja would be born at that spot (rakta=blood, bīja=seed; &quot; He for whom each drop of blood is a seed&quot;). According to some sources, Raktabija was, in his previous birth, Rambhasura, king of demons and the father of Mahishasura.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The eighth chapter of the Devi Mahatmya, raktabIja-vadh, focuses on Ambika's battle with Raktabīja as part of her battle against the asuras Shumbha and Nishumbha, who had disenfranchised the gods from heaven. Raktabīja was wounded, but drops of blood falling on the ground created innumerable other Raktabījas, and Ambika and the Matrikas were in difficulty. At this point, the Goddess Kali joined the battle, who stretched her tongue over the earth and licked up each drop of blood pouring from Raktabīja's body while other goddesses wounded him. Kali devoured his duplicates into her gaping mouth. This form who drank the demon's blood is also called Raktheshwari.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[link to wikipedia article][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raktab%C4%ABja" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17927" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5390" RevisionGUID="0f5565ed-9bd2-4e3f-967f-a80201db3f81" CreationDate="2019-01-17T22:12:10.173" UserId="5726" Text="The gods have powers of their own. As evidenced in the many hymns epics and poems.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Immortality&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Transformation or shape shifting&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Enhanced intelligence&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ability and powers to move from one place to another in an instant&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Powers to manipulate animals to obey their commands&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Powers to manipulate the weather**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Powers to become invisible&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Powers to create fantastic beings and weapons with supernatural powers&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Their blood was a bright unearthly fluid called Ichor that had the power of producing new life&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is without their weapons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus could hurl lightning bolts, but he didn't need them to control the weather. &#xD;&#xA;As god of the sky he has the power to hurl lightning bolts as his weapon of choice.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;source&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; Zeus • Facts and Information on Greek God of the Sky Zeus&quot;. Greek Gods &amp; Goddesses. &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17928" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5391" RevisionGUID="ada15132-92c3-4000-89c8-d1dbe76b3663" CreationDate="2019-01-17T22:25:04.363" UserId="5726" Text="That would be called a cryptid in case of the animal kingdom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some dictionaries and encyclopedias define the term &quot;cryptid&quot; as an animal whose existence is unsubstantiated.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;conspiracy theory could be another.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apocryphal &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From Late Latin apocryphus (“secret, not approved for public reading”), from Ancient Greek ἀπόκρυφος (apókruphos, “hidden, obscure”, thus “(books) of unknown authorship”), from ἀπό (apó, “from”) + κρύπτω (krúptō, “I hide”). Properly plural (the singular would be apocryphon), but commonly treated as a collective singular. “Apocryphal” meaning “of doubtful authenticity” is first attested in English in 1590.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Old wife's tale&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A supposed truth that has been passed down by word of mouth&#xD;&#xA;A rumour, myth or superstition; something which is almost certainly untrue, despite acceptance by many.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17929" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5391" RevisionGUID="22d7e17b-523b-4906-afef-a335937944e2" CreationDate="2019-01-17T22:43:20.740" UserId="5726" Comment="improved explanation" Text="That would be called a cryptid in case of the animal kingdom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some dictionaries and encyclopedias define the term &quot;cryptid&quot; as an animal whose existence is unsubstantiated. (perfect example would be bigfoot)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;conspiracy theory could be another.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apocryphal &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From Late Latin apocryphus (“secret, not approved for public reading”), from Ancient Greek ἀπόκρυφος (apókruphos, “hidden, obscure”, thus “(books) of unknown authorship”), from ἀπό (apó, “from”) + κρύπτω (krúptō, “I hide”). Properly plural (the singular would be apocryphon), but commonly treated as a collective singular. “Apocryphal” meaning “of doubtful authenticity” is first attested in English in 1590.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Old wife's tale&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A supposed truth that has been passed down by word of mouth&#xD;&#xA;A rumour, myth or superstition; something which is almost certainly untrue, despite acceptance by many.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17930" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5390" RevisionGUID="92cee823-e29a-4ddd-9b85-99c4c4516665" CreationDate="2019-01-17T22:51:32.047" UserId="5726" Comment="deleted 11 characters in body" Text="The gods have powers of their own. As evidenced in the many hymns epics and poems.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Immortality&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Transformation or shape shifting&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Enhanced intelligence&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ability and powers to move from one place to another in an instant&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Powers to manipulate animals to obey their commands&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Powers to manipulate the weather**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Powers to become invisible&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Powers to create fantastic beings with supernatural powers&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Their blood was a bright unearthly fluid called Ichor that had the power of producing new life&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is without their weapons .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus could hurl lightning bolts, but he didn't need them to control the weather. &#xD;&#xA;As god of the sky he has the power to hurl lightning bolts as his weapon of choice.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;source&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; Zeus • Facts and Information on Greek God of the Sky Zeus&quot;. Greek Gods &amp; Goddesses. &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17931" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5390" RevisionGUID="7cbdb6c2-f64a-44be-ba2d-2548cfcf4965" CreationDate="2019-01-18T00:15:11.657" UserId="5726" Comment="better explanation" Text="The gods have powers of their own. As evidenced in the many hymns epics and poems.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Immortality&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Transformation or shape shifting&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Enhanced intelligence&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ability and powers to move from one place to another in an instant&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Powers to manipulate animals to obey their commands&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Powers to manipulate the weather**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Powers to become invisible&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Powers to create fantastic beings with supernatural powers&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Their blood was a bright unearthly fluid called Ichor that had the power of producing new life&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is without their weapons .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So if you take away their weapons, they still have a lot of powers left.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;source&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; Zeus • Facts and Information on Greek God of the Sky Zeus&quot;. Greek Gods &amp; Goddesses. &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17932" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5392" RevisionGUID="45a25461-6a0d-4a40-bcc2-953562a399a2" CreationDate="2019-01-18T07:09:46.960" UserId="666" Text="Achilles&#xD;&#xA;--------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of Achilles' standing epithets in the Iliad is &quot;[swift-footed][1]&quot;. The story also shows that he is indeed fast when he chases down and kills Hector.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later during antiquity [Zeno of Elea][2] used him in a famous paradox, in which he was to [compete against a tortoise][3], similar to how we today usually pit hare and tortoise against each other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epithets_in_Homer#Individuals&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno_of_Elea&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno%27s_paradoxes#Achilles_and_the_tortoise" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17933" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5391" RevisionGUID="4372bbc3-caa6-4dc7-bc56-84586f5b5f32" CreationDate="2019-01-18T10:51:59.023" UserId="5726" Comment="added 30 characters in body" Text="That would be called a cryptid in case of the animal kingdom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some dictionaries and encyclopedias define the term &quot;cryptid&quot; as an animal whose existence is unsubstantiated. (perfect example would be bigfoot)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;conspiracy theory could be another.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Reification is yet another&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apocryphal &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From Late Latin apocryphus (“secret, not approved for public reading”), from Ancient Greek ἀπόκρυφος (apókruphos, “hidden, obscure”, thus “(books) of unknown authorship”), from ἀπό (apó, “from”) + κρύπτω (krúptō, “I hide”). Properly plural (the singular would be apocryphon), but commonly treated as a collective singular. “Apocryphal” meaning “of doubtful authenticity” is first attested in English in 1590.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Old wife's tale&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A supposed truth that has been passed down by word of mouth&#xD;&#xA;A rumour, myth or superstition; something which is almost certainly untrue, despite acceptance by many.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17936" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5388" RevisionGUID="0409cbec-d112-4ca5-a23b-614f96814222" CreationDate="2019-01-18T15:09:44.277" UserId="5541" Comment="Added Ajax to the list" Text="The first that comes in mind is &#xD;&#xA;## Hermes##&#xD;&#xA;As the emissary and messenger of the gods, he sure has this position because of his unprecedented speed, as his [theoi page][1] lists, his attributes contained winged boots that are of course associated with speed. One of his sacred animals is the hare, well known for its speed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another good competitor would be &#xD;&#xA;## Helios ##&#xD;&#xA;The sun titan-god that dedicates each day driving his chariot across the sky. But its speed depends on his horses then.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another Mythologic one but not a god&#xD;&#xA;## Ajax ##&#xD;&#xA;Who is said to fight a whole army alone while the front line is on many different [warships][2], which means he can leap from boat to boat as a dazzling speed. In his characteristics we can find [swift][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And if you want one historical but still epic if not mythic guy, you can count on&#xD;&#xA;## Pheidippides &#xD;&#xA;Who was a simple [herald][4] who ran from Marathon to announce their victory over Persia to Athenians. He died heroically right after the announcement (Adrenalin, you'll say). This story later inspired the Marathon sport discipline.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/HermesTreasures.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_the_Great#Trojan_War&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epithets_in_Homer#Individuals&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://Pheidippides" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17937" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5393" RevisionGUID="fc5cb3fe-6b2c-4f26-b2c3-7f65367be2a8" CreationDate="2019-01-18T19:37:01.040" UserId="666" Text="*Vǫlundarkviða* is Eddic poetry, and as such, best enjoyed if you already know the basic story and are able fill in details of the story yourself while focusing more on the poetry.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The poem does not seem to explicitly say how Völund was able to fly to his escape, it is just something he suddenly does. To find how, we need to look at other retellings, keeping in mind that they might not match up with the poets vision in regards to all details.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We have a retelling of his story in prose, in the form of *[Velents þáttr smiðs][1]* (&quot;The short story of Völund the Smith&quot;), which seem to match up rather well to the poem: Völund's brother Egill turns up to play a role. After some shenanigans with [shooting apples of his son's head][2], Egill collected feathers for Völund, who used them to fashion something that allowed him to fly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now we come to the exact nature of the flight: The word used in the þáttr for Völund's contraption is &quot;fjaðrhamr&quot;. A &quot;hamr&quot; is the shape and abilities of something: Freya is known to possess a hamr that could turn the wearer into a falcon. It would thus seem that Völund made some sort of dress that allowed him to fly as a bird. This is also confirmed by one of the [picture stones of Ardre][3], where we can see Völund's smithy, Nidud's dead sons, and a shape that is likely Völund flying away:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Ardre stone depiction of Völund's smithy][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velents_%C3%BE%C3%A1ttr_smi%C3%B0s&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_an_apple_off_one%27s_child%27s_head&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardre_image_stones&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Q5phQ.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17942" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5382" RevisionGUID="8047f2b0-8b06-41c2-b88f-7293f9c35166" CreationDate="2019-01-19T21:29:58.030" UserId="5723" Comment="added 92 characters in body" Text="So recently i have seen in films and series about this oddities that exist in our reality because people believe in them. Something that exist because of the collective imagination from people that belief in them. They may exist through urban legends, stories passed by generations, and stuff like that. I just wanna know what to specifically call them." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17943" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5396" RevisionGUID="7f4fb289-e2e0-4334-9ab0-80c7ce22ed5c" CreationDate="2019-01-19T23:03:49.790" UserId="5735" Text="Near the beginning of Book 21, most translators have used some peculiar language to describe Penelope's unlocking of the door behind which Odysseus' bow is kept. Fagles writes (lines 54&amp;ndash;56)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;At once she loosed the thong from around its hook, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;inserted the key and aiming straight and true, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;shot back the bolts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The choice to use the words &quot;aim&quot; and &quot;shot&quot; used to describe the process of unlocking a door seems to deliberately mirror the shooting of a bow. Other translations I've compared (Butler, Cowper, McCrorie, and Wilson) each contain &quot;aim&quot; or &quot;shoot&quot; (or some variation) in the passage. &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As I am one of those who cannot read the original, I was wondering whether the Greek text contains these allusions to archery in this specific passage. &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most translations I've read also contain &quot;bolt&quot; (as in a lock mechanism). I was also wondering if there's any possible wordplay between the other meanings. From Merriam-Webster (emphasis mine):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;1. a shaft or missile designed to be shot from a _crossbow_ or catapult, especially a short stout usually blunt-headed _arrow_ &#xD;&#xA;&gt;2. a lighting stroke, also _thunderbolt_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I might be grasping at straws, but I thought there might be some kind of double- or triple-meaning between the lock, arrows, and thunderbolts. What do you think?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17944" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5396" RevisionGUID="7f4fb289-e2e0-4334-9ab0-80c7ce22ed5c" CreationDate="2019-01-19T23:03:49.790" UserId="5735" Text="The Odyssey lock scene (Book 21): Translations vs. original Greek?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17945" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5396" RevisionGUID="7f4fb289-e2e0-4334-9ab0-80c7ce22ed5c" CreationDate="2019-01-19T23:03:49.790" UserId="5735" Text="|greek|odyssey|translation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17946" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5397" RevisionGUID="3f38f571-35c6-4a5b-a92c-22d5e02cf050" CreationDate="2019-01-20T14:35:31.440" UserId="5511" Text="There's certainly other ways the original text could be translated, it doesn't really force you into an archer analogy:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; αὐτίκ᾽ ἄρ᾽ ἥ γ᾽ ἱμάντα θοῶς ἀπέλυσε κορώνης, ἐν δὲ κληῗδ᾽ ἧκε, θυρέων&#xD;&#xA;&gt; δ᾽ ἀνέκοπτεν ὀχῆας ἄντα τιτυσκομένη&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The key words:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - αὐτίκα: &quot;forthwith, at once, in a moment,&quot;  &#xD;&#xA; - ἱμάς: &quot;leathern strap&quot;&#xD;&#xA; - θοόω: &quot;quick&quot;, or &quot;(make) sharp&quot; &#xD;&#xA; - ἀπολύω: &quot;loose from,&quot; &#xD;&#xA; - κορωνός: &quot;curved, crooked&quot; &#xD;&#xA; - κλείς: &quot;clavis, claudo.&quot; (this is the latin word for an old key, in French this is clef) &#xD;&#xA; - ἥκω: &quot;to have come, be present&quot; &#xD;&#xA; - θυρεός: &quot;door&quot;, or &quot;stone put against a door&quot; &#xD;&#xA; - ἀνακόπτω:&quot;drive back, push back,&quot; &#xD;&#xA; - ὀχεύς: &quot;anything used for holding&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So you could just as well translate this something like:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Suddenly, she quickly and accurately loosened the strap from the hook and brought the key to the door (i.e. put the key in the lock), pushing back the holders(bolts).*" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17947" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5398" RevisionGUID="39aa6589-9ec3-4df9-b4e8-3906fa98a67a" CreationDate="2019-01-20T14:52:56.153" UserId="5511" Text="The [Kojiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kojiki) of Shinto states the origins of mankind as an action of Izanami-no-Mikoto:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Izanami started his cleansing rites and in doing so he created the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Goddess of the seas and the Goddess of the moon by washing his left&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and right eyes. He then created the God of storms out of his nostril&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and after all this was done he created the first humans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I should probably also point out that the term &quot;polytheism&quot; as it is understood in the West doesn't really apply to Shinto. The term &quot;kami&quot; describes a spirit or essence that is very much part of the world. Naturalistic animism would probably be a better description." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17949" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5180" RevisionGUID="1e124949-a292-4313-8a19-9b56c71a2934" CreationDate="2019-01-21T13:21:21.420" UserId="57" Comment="Eh, no need for that. " Text="Reading manuals:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [How to read Egyptian Hieroglyphs, a step by step guide][1] A simple approach but help if you do not have a teacher next to you&#xD;&#xA; - [Middle Egyptian: An Introduction to the Language and Culture of Hieroglyphs][2] One of the best book I ever read on any language. That book is miserably good.&#xD;&#xA;Friendly warning: While they are still widely used by internauts, FORGET Wallis Budge books... Forget them. They are WAY too old. Way way way. Any of Wallis Budge's books, his one on hieroglyphs or his old translations. Forget them.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now concerning texts:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [The Pyramid text online][3] That is the tomb of Unis (they spelled Unas due to the Egyptian i which is often spelled a), with plenty of photos, and English translation. All the tomb is clearly photographed&#xD;&#xA; - [Projet Rosette][4], a French site, but you do not care, it is written in English with plenty of texts.&#xD;&#xA; - [Annoting Egyptian texts][5] Very nice resource with photos and the text in font translation (easier to read)&#xD;&#xA; - [Saint Andrew Corpus][6] the text in hieroglyphs with the transliteration and the traduction, best way to learn&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you can see, resources are PLENTY. Egyptian is a tough language, very tough, its writing system a pain. But there are tons of excellent resources to study it.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And forget anything written by Wallis Budge. I told it, mentioned it. I am repeating it. They even made fun of the fact Wallis Budge's books are still in print in the old movie Stargate!!! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.amazon.fr/Read-Egyptian-Hieroglyphs-Step-Step/dp/0520239490&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.amazon.fr/Middle-Egyptian-Introduction-Language-Hieroglyphs/dp/0521741440&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.pyramidtextsonline.com/index.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://vincent.euverte.free.fr/Rosette/index.php?Lang=E&amp;Style=_dark&amp;Page=7&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://sachi.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/research/digital-humanities/annotating-hieroglyphic-text/&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://mjn.host.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/egyptian/texts/corpus/pdf/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17952" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5180" RevisionGUID="715e2113-c56c-4925-9dd6-a0dd7d4408a2" CreationDate="2019-01-21T14:08:41.627" UserId="2774" Comment="Redo the intro... correctly" Text="Here is a compilation of various resources to learn ancient classical Egyptian (aka Middle Egyptian) and a selection of various corpus to read. NB: The texts and resources I am quoting here and purely in hieroglyphics, you will not find here hieratic (the &quot;cursive form&quot; of hieroglyphs) or demotic. Also, notice you can learn with them Classical Egyptian, with tackling a little bit from your side, old Kingdom stuff, but Ptolemaic writing will be barely accessible, the one in hieroglyphics, I mean here.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Reading manuals:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [How to read Egyptian Hieroglyphs, a step by step guide][1] A simple approach but help if you do not have a teacher next to you&#xD;&#xA; - [Middle Egyptian: An Introduction to the Language and Culture of Hieroglyphs][2] One of the best book I ever read on any language. That book is miserably good.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Friendly warning: While they are still widely used by internauts, FORGET Wallis Budge books... Forget them. They are WAY too old. Way way way. Any of Wallis Budge's books, his one on hieroglyphs or his old translations. Forget them.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now concerning texts:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [The Pyramid text online][3] That is the tomb of Unis (they spelled Unas due to the Egyptian i which is often spelled a), with plenty of photos, and English translation. All the tomb is clearly photographed&#xD;&#xA; - [Projet Rosette][4], a French site, but you do not care, it is written in English with plenty of texts.&#xD;&#xA; - [Annoting Egyptian texts][5] Very nice resource with photos and the text in font translation (easier to read)&#xD;&#xA; - [Saint Andrew Corpus][6] the text in hieroglyphs with the transliteration and the traduction, best way to learn&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you can see, resources are PLENTY. Egyptian is a tough language, very tough, its writing system a pain. But there are tons of excellent resources to study it.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And forget anything written by Wallis Budge. I told it, mentioned it. I am repeating it. They even made fun of the fact Wallis Budge's books are still in print in the old movie Stargate!!! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.amazon.fr/Read-Egyptian-Hieroglyphs-Step-Step/dp/0520239490&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.amazon.fr/Middle-Egyptian-Introduction-Language-Hieroglyphs/dp/0521741440&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.pyramidtextsonline.com/index.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://vincent.euverte.free.fr/Rosette/index.php?Lang=E&amp;Style=_dark&amp;Page=7&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://sachi.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/research/digital-humanities/annotating-hieroglyphic-text/&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://mjn.host.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/egyptian/texts/corpus/pdf/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17953" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5399" RevisionGUID="e53542aa-b205-48f7-b801-07a026a302fe" CreationDate="2019-01-21T21:39:09.873" UserId="5541" Text="So I actually looked the mob psycho episode 2 season 2 as I said and actually, I've been a bit deceived. The answer I give to you here is really simpler than what we could expect:&#xD;&#xA;## Urban legends ##&#xD;&#xA;Urban legends are mostly terrifying characters or stories related to them that we share for fun or by fear, most of them have a simple explication as a murderer or a wild animal on the loose but we can't actually ever be sure of the explication. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Actually theses stories and the associated fears only exists because we keep believing in them and tell about them. We can find theses kind of creatures in every kind of culture and actually most of the cultural lore may have been based on Urban Legends that have been enhanced with many generations sharing them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't actually have any mythologic or cultural lore based answer but I think that's the closest we can get without any long specific research in every religions and culture." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17954" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5400" RevisionGUID="8c84f098-4ea1-4565-a83c-64b973064f15" CreationDate="2019-01-22T02:26:43.543" UserId="4263" Text="According to [this link](https://books.google.ru/books?id=c52EAgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA91&amp;dq=Inanna+and+Utu&amp;redir_esc=y&amp;hl=ru#v=onepage&amp;q=Inanna%20and%20Utu&amp;f=false) there is a myth where Inanna knows about sex from a tree fruit. She wants to know about sex and for that she has to go to the underworld and taste the fruit there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But why couldn't she just ask others? Wasn't there anyone who knew about sex and was she the first ever to know that? And how does the fruit contain that knowledge?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17955" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5400" RevisionGUID="8c84f098-4ea1-4565-a83c-64b973064f15" CreationDate="2019-01-22T02:26:43.543" UserId="4263" Text="Why does Inanna need a fruit to know of sex?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17956" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5400" RevisionGUID="8c84f098-4ea1-4565-a83c-64b973064f15" CreationDate="2019-01-22T02:26:43.543" UserId="4263" Text="|sumerian|mesopotamia|inanna|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17957" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5401" RevisionGUID="33b5cacf-022c-435b-b6f7-cd7aa8a02091" CreationDate="2019-01-22T10:27:50.353" UserId="2774" Text="The way that poem is told in your link is fancy. That is a *fairly personal* interpretation of the myth. In that story she doesn't have to go the underworld, but in fact does precisely the contrary, as she has to climb upon mountains range. At the beginning she is with her brother Utu in a tavern :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shul dUtu kash-mu-unu4-mal e-kas-tin-ka-ke4&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;shehs-mu u-mu-un ni-gur-ru kur-she ga-ba-e-da-us&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;u-mu-un-an-na u-mu-un ni-gur-ru u-mu-un kur-she ga-ba-e-da-us &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; O heroic Utu who produces malt and beer for the alehouse&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt; O my brother, you the lord of the fearsome glory, &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Let me climb up with you to the highlands&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then we have the passage gently cited when Inanna is mentioning sex :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; em-munus-e-ne mu nu-zu-men &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; em-munus-e-ne mu-du nu-zu-men &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; em-munus-e-ne se-su-ub nu-zu-men&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; the thing of the women, the male member, I do not know &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the thing of the women, having sex with men, I do not know &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the thing of the women, kissing, I do not know&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And then, let's see what is happening in the mountain :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; kur-ra a-na mu-un-ma-al a-na ga-ku-un-de-en&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sim mu-un - ku-a-ta g;lerin mu-un-ku-a-ta&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; On the moutain, let us feed on anything,  really anything. &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after we have eaten the herbs, after we have eaten the cedar (!!)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We can thus summarize the story like that: Inanna is quite young, and she is somewhere, in a tavern, probably, with her brother Utu, we can guess the tavern setting due to Inanna emphasizing Utu's brewer aspect. For an unknown reason, Inanna is scared and wants to go back to the land of Zabala, where her family is, and she is ready to go right now, saying she wants to live (know sex) and she is more than ready to feed upon the grasses of the dangerous mountains.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;How we know Inanna's age: she is firstly totally immature, doesn't know sex, is not really measuring the danger of a quick trip upon mountains ledges, she is not power hungry, and she thinks she can feed upon grass and cedar during the journey. Not really the best depiction of Inanna...&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Read closely the passage I am quoting and translating and you can see Inanna's fear totally transparent. We don't know what she is fearing (perhaps she is with Utu in a tavern drinking, and suddenly finds that highly suspicious), we just know she is scared as Hell by something and this makes a long travel on a hostile mountain preferable by eons. Which tell you here this poem is a composition about Utu as a protector of the weak and innocent. Not a story about Inanna's discovering sex...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17959" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="2141" RevisionGUID="afd274b9-ed5a-4a9a-9221-7f6473fbcfc6" CreationDate="2019-01-22T19:30:24.603" UserId="57" Comment="76" />
  <row Id="17961" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5401" RevisionGUID="4ce06c3c-a0e3-4067-8623-2b021d47605c" CreationDate="2019-01-22T19:35:29.697" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 61 characters in body" Text="The way that poem is told in your link is fancy. That is a *fairly personal* interpretation of the myth. In that story, she doesn't have to go the underworld, but in fact does precisely the contrary, as she has to climb upon mountains range. At the beginning she is with her brother Utu in a tavern:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shul dUtu kash-mu-unu4-mal e-kas-tin-ka-ke4  &#xD;&#xA;shehs-mu u-mu-un ni-gur-ru kur-she ga-ba-e-da-us  &#xD;&#xA;u-mu-un-an-na u-mu-un ni-gur-ru u-mu-un kur-she ga-ba-e-da-us   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; O heroic Utu who produces malt and beer for the alehouse  &#xD;&#xA;O my brother, you the lord of the fearsome glory,  &#xD;&#xA;Let me climb up with you to the highlands&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then we have the passage gently cited when Inanna is mentioning sex:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; em-munus-e-ne mu nu-zu-men  &#xD;&#xA;em-munus-e-ne mu-du nu-zu-men  &#xD;&#xA;em-munus-e-ne se-su-ub nu-zu-men&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the thing of the women, the male member, I do not know  &#xD;&#xA;the thing of the women, having sex with men, I do not know  &#xD;&#xA;the thing of the women, kissing, I do not know&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And then, let's see what is happening in the mountain:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; kur-ra a-na mu-un-ma-al a-na ga-ku-un-de-en  &#xD;&#xA;sim mu-un - ku-a-ta g;lerin mu-un-ku-a-ta&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; On the mountain, let us feed on anything, really anything.  &#xD;&#xA;after we have eaten the herbs, after we have eaten the cedar (!!)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We can thus summarize the story like that: Inanna is quite young, and she is somewhere, in a tavern, probably, with her brother Utu. We can guess the tavern setting due to Inanna emphasizing Utu's brewer aspect. For an unknown reason, Inanna is scared and wants to go back to the land of Zabala, where her family is, and she is ready to go right now, saying she wants to live (~know sex) and she is more than ready to feed upon the grasses of the dangerous mountains.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How we know Inanna's age: she is firstly totally immature, doesn't know sex, is not really measuring the danger of a quick trip upon mountains ledges, she is not power hungry, and she thinks she can feed upon grass and cedar during the journey. Not really the best depiction of Inanna.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Read closely the passage I am quoting and translating and you can see Inanna's fear totally transparent. We don't know what she is fearing (perhaps she is with Utu in a tavern drinking, and suddenly finds that highly suspicious), we just know she is scared as Hell by something and this makes a long journey on a hostile mountain preferable. Which tells you this poem is a composition about Utu as a protector of the weak and innocent. Not a story about Inanna's discovering sex.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17970" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5401" RevisionGUID="7492fbf9-cd76-4b3a-810b-cbc05fce86ca" CreationDate="2019-01-23T16:42:07.483" UserId="2774" Comment="Minor adjustements in the text" Text="The way that poem is told in your link is fancy and questionable. That is a *fairly personal* interpretation of the myth. In that story, Inanna doesn't have to go the underworld, but in fact does precisely the contrary, as she would have to climb upon mountain range. At the beginning she is with her brother Utu probably in a tavern:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shul dUtu kash-mu-unu4-mal e-kas-tin-ka-ke4  &#xD;&#xA;shehs-mu u-mu-un ni-gur-ru kur-she ga-ba-e-da-us  &#xD;&#xA;u-mu-un-an-na u-mu-un ni-gur-ru u-mu-un kur-she ga-ba-e-da-us   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; O heroic Utu who produces malt and beer for the alehouse  &#xD;&#xA;O my brother, you the lord of the fearsome glory,  &#xD;&#xA;Let me climb up with you to the highlands&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then we have the passage, gently quoted in the book, when Inanna is mentioning sex:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; em-munus-e-ne mu nu-zu-men  &#xD;&#xA;em-munus-e-ne mu-du nu-zu-men  &#xD;&#xA;em-munus-e-ne se-su-ub nu-zu-men&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the thing of the women, the male member, I do not know  &#xD;&#xA;the thing of the women, having sex with men, I do not know  &#xD;&#xA;the thing of the women, kissing, I do not know&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And then, let's see what could be happening in the mountain:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; kur-ra a-na mu-un-ma-al a-na ga-ku-un-de-en  &#xD;&#xA;sim mu-un - ku-a-ta g;lerin mu-un-ku-a-ta&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; On the mountain, let us feed on anything, really anything.  &#xD;&#xA;after we have eaten the herbs, after we have eaten the cedar (!!)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We can thus summarize the story like that: Inanna is quite young, and she is somewhere, in a tavern, probably, with her brother Utu. We can guess the tavern setting due to Inanna emphasizing Utu's brewer aspect. For an unknown reason, Inanna is scared and wants to go back to the land of Zabala, where her family is, and she is ready to go right now, saying she wants to live (~know sex) and she is more than ready to feed upon the grasses of the dangerous mountains.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On a side note, Utu is not known for his brewery skill, still here emphasized by Inanna, neither Inanna for being a young innocent virgin girl. Which makes this composition fairly unusual.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How we can guess Inanna's age: she is firstly totally immature, doesn't know sex, is not really measuring the danger of a quick trip upon mountains ledges, she is not power hungry, and she thinks she can feed upon grass and cedar during the journey. Not really the best depiction of Inanna.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Read closely the passage I am quoting and translating and you can see Inanna's fear totally transparent. We don't know what she is fearing (perhaps she is with Utu in a tavern drinking, and suddenly finds that highly suspicious), we just know she is scared as Hell by something and this makes a long journey on a hostile mountain preferable. Which tells you this poem is a composition about Utu as a protector of the weak and innocent. Not a story about Inanna's discovering sex.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17971" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3127" RevisionGUID="31630058-dbd0-474d-85f3-50e340007b9b" CreationDate="2019-01-24T02:25:14.013" UserId="2810" Comment="add transcription of image, for accessibility purposes, and flesh out the question a bit" Text="I am not sure if this is a real myth, as I learned about it from a Tumblr post:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![transcription below][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&gt; charlesoberonn:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hades was the least evil entity in the entire Greek pantheon. Just look at the punishments.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&gt;&gt;Pushing a rock uphill forever,  &#xD;&#xA;Have venom slowly dripping on your face for eternity, have a bird eat you [sic] liver alive every day, that's all Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hades' punishments were like 'solve this million piece puzzle or whatever'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&gt; 'be married to me for half the year'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He just wanted someone to love him and play game [sic] with him. I see no crime in that.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the punishments mentioned is poison acid dripping on someone. Is this true? Who did Zeus punish in this fashion?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/omLQp.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17972" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3127" RevisionGUID="31630058-dbd0-474d-85f3-50e340007b9b" CreationDate="2019-01-24T02:25:14.013" Comment="Proposed by 2810 approved by 2807, 183 edit id of 1700" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17974" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4662" RevisionGUID="311d2d84-26d0-40bd-a54d-ebf621e18a35" CreationDate="2019-01-24T09:23:06.987" UserId="2810" Comment="add image description, flesh out question a bit" Text="![picture of a giant](https://i.stack.imgur.com/xirxu.jpg)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This picture above is a giant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What exactly is the difference between a &quot;giant&quot; and the Hebrew &quot;nephilim&quot;?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17975" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4662" RevisionGUID="311d2d84-26d0-40bd-a54d-ebf621e18a35" CreationDate="2019-01-24T09:23:06.987" UserId="2810" Comment="add image description, flesh out question a bit" Text="What's the difference between a giant and the &quot;nephilim&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17976" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4662" RevisionGUID="311d2d84-26d0-40bd-a54d-ebf621e18a35" CreationDate="2019-01-24T09:23:06.987" Comment="Proposed by 2810 approved by 2807, 2774 edit id of 1699" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17978" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5404" RevisionGUID="aa5d0b29-903c-4f49-9727-eed03473a9e4" CreationDate="2019-01-25T18:17:09.887" UserId="5742" Text="I read on a site that **Aokigahara have a kami**, but when I search on I do not think anything about, does anyone know anything?&#xD;&#xA;I also read once that kamis are affected by the energy of where they live, as a place where people go to kill themselves would have a kami? (at least a good kami?)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17979" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5404" RevisionGUID="aa5d0b29-903c-4f49-9727-eed03473a9e4" CreationDate="2019-01-25T18:17:09.887" UserId="5742" Text="Is there a kami of Aokigahara?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17980" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5404" RevisionGUID="aa5d0b29-903c-4f49-9727-eed03473a9e4" CreationDate="2019-01-25T18:17:09.887" UserId="5742" Text="|japanese|shinto|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17982" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5406" RevisionGUID="2a81dc9d-7370-47b3-9b6f-777fdfb6a0cc" CreationDate="2019-01-25T21:09:03.823" UserId="2892" Text="Hades main story involved the abduction of his niece, the Kore (aka Persephone), and subsequent forced marriage.  So, from a modern perspective, we could say he is a bad guy. But, it's important to remember that incest among the gods is not a crime--Zeus married his own sister!  Forced marriage was also the norm, certainly for nobles, until fairly recently.  Hades shared his throne with Persephone, and, through the [Eleusinian Mysteries][1], she becomes a goddess most esteemed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hades is often regarded as the &quot;anti-Zeus&quot; [see [Diis/Dis Pater\]&#xD;&#xA;][2]--Zeus' realm is the sky which is filled with light; Hades realm is eternal darkness.  So it would be easy to see Hades as &quot;evil&quot;, except that Zeus is not strictly &quot;good&quot;.  (The pagan &quot;Sky Father&quot; is as susceptible to human foibles as anyone, despite his cleverness--Hector has far more dignity than Zeus!)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As Hades transforms into the Roman variant, he is much more associated with the wealth of the subterranean regions--[Pluto][3] (&quot;wealth&quot;, from the Greek [πλοῦτος][4]). In the Orphic Tradition, [Eubuleus][5] (&quot;wise in counselor&quot;) is associated with both Hades and Zeus.  [Heraclitus][6] even suggested that Hades and Dionysus are the same god, representing the life/death dichotomy in the context of eternal renewal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Theoi has a nice compendium of Hades references][7]. My sense is that Hades mostly chilled and did his thing.  In terms of bad behavior, Zeus is sort of the poster boy for that, and Hades is, by comparison, pretty well behaved and low-key.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Hades is more complex than commonly understood.  He is not bad or evil in the Judeo-Christian sense, but propitiated in that humans tend to fear death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleusinian_Mysteries&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C4%ABs_Pater&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluto_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dplou%3Dtos1&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eubuleus&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades#cite_note-56&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Haides.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17984" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5407" RevisionGUID="91b4ec32-debf-4ad6-a612-f1b0cce87723" CreationDate="2019-01-25T21:45:04.447" UserId="2892" Text="[I agree with Caloam][1], that Hermes was surely the swiftest.  But let us never forget:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Atalanta][2] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/5388/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atalanta#Footrace" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17985" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5408" RevisionGUID="762527ed-bd2b-4d73-91a7-21440740f7be" CreationDate="2019-01-27T03:02:19.977" UserId="5511" Text="In essence, Shinto states that Kami are elements of the landscape, forces of nature, spirits of the dead, roads, tools, anything really - there are over [300 categories](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kojiki) of Kami according to Shinto tradition, and thousands of these have been given names. They can have good and evil qualities. Mount Fuji, for example (Aokihagara is located at the foot of the Fuji) is considered an extremely powerful Kami. According to Shinto, it's equally valid to state that Aokihagara has a Kami than it is to say that every tree and leaf of grass in Aokihagara has their own Kami. None of these is listed and named in the [Kojiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kojiki), but that can be said of most Kami.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the relation between Kami and suicide, it's important to understand that neither Shinto nor Buddhism have the concept of sin associated with suicide like in the Abrahamic religions. For centuries, suicide was an honorable alternative for the nobility and the samurai to the humiliation of defeat as defined in [Bushido](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushido). Westerners easily generalize the commonality of the practice to include the common people and sometimes even extend this generalization into modern times. This perception is mostly based on movies like [the ballad of Narayama](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ballad_of_Narayama_(1958_film)), itself based on a novel which describes a folk legend called [obasute](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubasute). This has never been a common practice. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Shinto does have the concept of [kitsune](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsune), trickster Kami, which until the late 19th century were thought to be responsible for possession and mental illness. However, very few Shinto practitioners would subscribe to the notion that Aokihagara is exclusively inhabited by Kitsune that drive people to suicide. The sad fact is for the Japanese suicidals it has the same &quot;appeal&quot; as for example the Empire State building has for American suicidals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17986" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5409" RevisionGUID="c219ea47-b20f-4b53-b2c0-25d4250a91df" CreationDate="2019-01-27T03:15:46.880" UserId="5511" Text="In the Odyssey, [Alcinous](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcinous), who according to Homer was king of the Phaeacians, [receives a prophecy that if he were to sail home from Troy with Odysseus (which he did), his kingdom would come to fall](https://books.google.be/books?id=g92TnWs1q_MC&amp;pg=PA36&amp;lpg=PA36&amp;dq=Aristophanes+of+Byzantium+odyssey+Alcinous&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=UEsxMEzg4E&amp;sig=ACfU3U0m7KKJxXEbm6mvVecs-DZvdtdWyw&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwjx2YDr_ozgAhUC16QKHZunBKYQ6AEwEHoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&amp;q=Aristophanes%20of%20Byzantium%20odyssey%20Alcinous&amp;f=false) by the wrath of Poseidon. Homer never mentioned the fall of the kingdom. In addition, that particular part of the Odyssey was later edited by [Aristophanes of Byzantium](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristophanes_of_Byzantium) to say that Zeus intervened to stop the prophecy." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17987" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5410" RevisionGUID="338b508a-588a-4bb6-92d9-31590601820c" CreationDate="2019-01-27T06:37:26.857" UserId="2807" Text="Besides Zeus and Metis, and Alcinous, the only other example of unfulfilled prophecy I have found in Greek mythology is about the Thessalian princess [Tyro](https://www.theoi.com/Heroine/Tyro.html), daughter of Salmoneus and niece and wife of Sisyphus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Quoting from Theoi:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sisyphos fathered two children by Tyro after learning that these sons&#xD;&#xA;&gt; would grow up to kill Salmoneus. When this was revealed Tyro, out of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; loyalty to her father, put the infants to death." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17988" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5411" RevisionGUID="c1e5593a-d6d7-408b-8ef9-6f3ef6294588" CreationDate="2019-01-28T03:14:00.443" UserId="5757" Text="I have written two books on the subject in 2010, (1) The Garden of Eden Myth: Its Pre-biblical Origin in Mesopotamian Myths and (2) Eden's Serpent: Its Mesopotamian Origin, both available at Amazon.com on the internet. So where is the garden of Eden? To answer this question I used a different approach, compared to other Eden searchers. They tended to seek Eden by locating its four rivers. My approach was to ask the question, &quot;Are their other accounts about Eden in other myths?&quot; If so, perhaps a study of these myths might provide a clue to the garden's location? I discovered that the Sumerians had myths about a location they called EDIN. EDIN is uncultivated desert-like wilderness waste land, in today's modern Iraq. According to the Hebrews Eden means &quot;delight,&quot; apparently the Hebrews being unfamiliar with this Sumerian word, mistakenly equated it with Hebrew Eden. Thus a wilderness desert wasteland became a &quot;delightful place.&quot; The Sumerian myths have the gods creating man of EDIN's clay and then placing him in the EDIN to wander its animal trails with wild animals for companions. Man is a beast in the early myths of Sumer, he is portrayed roaming about on all fours, hairy, and naked. His companions are naked hairy beasts, like them, he eats grass, they are wild cattle and antelopes. Naked man in EDIN has no knowledge about good or evil, for he unaware in EDIN that it is wrong to be naked. Only the gods of Sumer know of good and evil, for only they wear clothing. Eventually the gods take man from his beasts and replaces them with a woman for a companion. She persuades him to leave EDIN. When they leave EDIN they both are clothed, in other words EDIN's naked man and naked woman leave EDIN clothed for Uruk (Enkidu and Shamhat in the Epic of Gilgamesh). The Sumerian account for how man came to lose at a chance to obtain immortality is called Adapa and the South Wind Myth. Adapa is warned by his god, Ea of Eridu &quot;Don't eat the bread of death you will die!&quot; When Adapa is offered the bread of life by Ningishizda and Dumuzid on Anu's behalf, Adapa, refuses to consume what he believes is the bread of death. I understand that as God is portrayed as warning Adam and Eve DON'T EAT, YOU WILL DIE, and the same warning is given Adapa by Ea at Eridu, that Eridu is the site of the Garden in Eden, at least in pre-biblical Sumerian myths. IN reality Genesis' garden in Eden is a fusion of several sites in Mesopotamian myths. Besides Eridu where the warning was issued YOU WILL DIE IF YOU EAT, there is Anu's heavenly abode where the food of death is to be offered, and the waterhole in EDIN the desert wilderness 3 days from Uruk, where Enkidu (Asam) meets Shamhat (Eve). So behind the Bible's garden in Eden, are, three locations: (1) Eridu where is found the command Don't Eat, (2) Anu's heavenly abode were forbidden food is offered, and (3) the Edin's waterhole, 3 days in the wildernesss from Uruk where Enkidu met Shamhat. The Hunter that brought Shamhat to Edin's water hole told her to seduce Enkidu, allow him to have sex with her, strip naked for him. When he tires of sleeping with her for 6 days and nights and attempts top return to his beastly companions they flee from him. He returns to Shamhat as accepts her as his new companion. She encourages him to leave EDIN and reside at Uruk and become the friend of Gilgamesh. The Hebrews are repudiating the Sumerian myths about how man was created in a place called EDIN. The Sumerians agree with the Hebrews man is a sinner, but why differs. The gods are portrayed as indulging in all of the vices of mankind: murder, incest, lying, conning, raping, sex with animals, homosexual sex, etc. Man, made in the sinner-gods image can be no different. The Hebrews objected to this being why man is a sinner. Their god lives in a place called EDEN, not EDIN, and their god is righteous and just, and ethical, not a sinner-god, and man, is expected to be righteous and ethical being made in God's image. Enkidu's sleeping with Shamhat for 6 days and nights was recast as Adam awaking from sleep to behold a naked Eve at his side. THe HUnter who brought Shamhat to replace Enkidus' animal companions with herself and emove him from EDIN was recast as Yahweh-Elohim introduing Eve to Adam who replaces Adam's animal companions. My website, www.bibleorigins.net also deals with this subject in addition to my afore mentioned books." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17989" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5412" RevisionGUID="8296936e-85ad-4df1-9862-1c25041de8fc" CreationDate="2019-01-28T03:51:26.767" UserId="5757" Text="I find myself agreeing with Arthur George: The connection is indeed tenuous, as to Enki and Ninti being recast as Adam and Eve in the Bible, based on Professor Kramer's suggestion. I have written two books on the subject in 2010, available at Amazon.com on the internet, (1) Eden's Serpent: Its Mesopotamian Origin, and (2) The Garden of Eden Myth: Its Pre-biblical Origin in Mesopotamian Myths. My research, based on the findings of PhD scholars, 1850-2010, understands that biblical Eden is a recast of ancient Sumer's EDIN, a desert-like wilderness waste that is today's Iraq. Apparently the Hebrew word Eden means &quot;delight&quot; and the Hebrews, mishearing the Sumerian word EDIN, mistakenly equated it with their Eden. The bible's Adam and Eve are understood to be a composite of several mythical characters found in various Mesopotamian accounts about the EDIN. Adam is (1) Enkidu, (2) Adapa/Adaba, and (3) Dumuzi/Tammuz, while Eve is principally (1) Shamhat, and (2) Inanna/Ishtar, her patron goddess. EDIN's gods and goddesses have been recast as Eden's god, Yahweh-Elohim.  Ningishzida and Tammuz have been recast as the Cherubbim. Eden's serpent is a recast of several Sumerian gods, living in the EDIN, who bore the epiteth usumgal, meaning &quot;great serpent or &quot;great dragon,&quot; a mythical beast with four legs, two horns, two wings, serpentine body and tail, and poisonous teeth. The creators of man in Sumerian myths are several gods and goddesses. Among them Enlil of Nippur is called an Usumgal. Enki of Eridu is also called an usumgal. Ningishzida and Dumuzi who offered Adapa/Adaba what he thought was the bread of death, were also called usumgal. That is to say, in some myth the god who owns the city-garden in EDIN is a human, with legs and arms and a voice to speak, but this god is called an usumgal as an epiteth to inspire fear and respect from sinner-man, fearing the usumgals's poisonous bite. My website, www.bibleorigins.net also covers this subject in more depth. Why are the Hebrews refuting the Sumerian account of man's creation in EDIN? The Sumerians understood the gods participated in all the vices of mankind: murder, rape, incest with daughters, sex with animals, homosexual sex, lying, oath-breaking, etc. Man, made in the image of sinner-gods was a sinner. The Hebrews rejected this notion. Their god lived in a place called EDEN , not EDIN, he was not a sinner-god, he was righteous, ethical and just, and man, made in his image was expected to behave in a similar manner. The gods of Sumer made man to care for their fruit tree gardens in the EDIN. He was to be a gardening slave, alleviating the gods of toil for their food, The gods had bodeis of flesh and could die of starvation of having no food to eat. So their gardens in the EDIN were created for for them to eat from, BEFORE man was later created, and became their gardening slave." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17990" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5412" RevisionGUID="f0e22bd7-1c13-4308-a341-73889a7a98ee" CreationDate="2019-01-28T03:57:31.010" UserId="5757" Comment="added 5 characters in body" Text="I find myself agreeing with Arthur George: The connection is indeed tenuous, as to Enki and Ninti being recast as Adam and Eve in the Bible, based on Professor Kramer's suggestion. I have written two books on the subject in 2010, available at Amazon.com on the internet, (1) Eden's Serpent: Its Mesopotamian Origin, and (2) The Garden of Eden Myth: Its Pre-biblical Origin in Mesopotamian Myths. My research, based on the findings of PhD scholars, 1850-2010, understands that biblical Eden is a recast of ancient Sumer's EDIN, a desert-like wilderness waste that is today's Iraq. Apparently the Hebrew word Eden means &quot;delight&quot; and the Hebrews, mishearing the Sumerian word EDIN, mistakenly equated it with their Eden. The bible's Adam and Eve are understood to be a composite of several mythical characters found in various Mesopotamian accounts about the EDIN. Adam is (1) Enkidu, (2) Adapa/Adaba, and (3) Dumuzi/Tammuz, while Eve is principally (1) Shamhat, and (2) Inanna/Ishtar, her patron goddess. EDIN's gods and goddesses have been recast as Eden's god, Yahweh-Elohim.  Ningishzida and Tammuz have been recast as the Cherubbim. Eden's serpent is a recast of several Sumerian gods, living in the EDIN, who bore the epiteth usumgal, meaning &quot;great serpent or &quot;great dragon,&quot; a mythical beast with four legs, two horns, two wings, serpentine body and tail, and poisonous teeth. The creators of man in Sumerian myths are several gods and goddesses. Among them Enlil of Nippur is called an Usumgal. Enki of Eridu is also called an usumgal. Ningishzida and Dumuzi who offered Adapa/Adaba what he thought was the bread of death, were also called usumgal. That is to say, in some myth the god who owns the city-garden in EDIN is a human, with legs and arms and a voice to speak, but this god is called an usumgal as an epiteth to inspire fear and respect from sinner-man, fearing the usumgals's poisonous bite. My website, www.bibleorigins.net also covers this subject in more depth. Why are the Hebrews refuting the Sumerian account of man's creation in EDIN? The Sumerians understood the gods participated in all the vices of mankind: murder, rape, incest with daughters, sex with animals, homosexual sex, lying, oath-breaking, etc. Man, made in the image of sinner-gods was a sinner. The Hebrews rejected this notion. Their god lived in a place called EDEN , not EDIN, he was not a sinner-god, he was righteous, ethical and just, and man, made in his image was expected to behave in a similar manner. The gods of Sumer made man to care for their fruit tree gardens in the EDIN. He was to be a gardening slave, alleviating the gods of toil for their food, The gods had bodies of flesh and could die of starvation if having no food to eat. So their city-gardens in the EDIN were created for for them to eat from, BEFORE man was later created, and became their gardening slave." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17991" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5413" RevisionGUID="4b15bcf0-e4a8-48d3-a053-d86fd4c5a064" CreationDate="2019-01-28T04:05:41.153" UserId="5757" Text="Homosexuality was practiced by the ancient Greeks and Romans as well as ancient Sumerians, Babylonians and Assyrians. Although condemned in the the Bible, the Old testament mentions  that prostitutes and transvestites practiced their business in the Temple of Solomon at Jerusalem and dedicated the money they earned toward the temple's upkeep. The American Indians practiced homosexuality, calling men who behaved like women, squaw men, they wore women's clothes and did women's chores." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17992" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5388" RevisionGUID="5184d763-c7bc-45ff-8e1c-6ab6eb5970a6" CreationDate="2019-01-28T08:42:31.507" UserId="5541" Comment="Added Iris and Arke, following a comment from @Spencer" Text="The first that comes in mind is &#xD;&#xA;## Hermes##&#xD;&#xA;As the emissary and messenger of the gods, he sure has this position because of his unprecedented speed, as his [theoi page][1] lists, his attributes contained winged boots that are of course associated with speed. One of his sacred animals is the hare, well known for its speed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While talking about messenger of Gods, we can talk about the ones that had this job during the Titanomachy:&#xD;&#xA;## Iris and Arke##&#xD;&#xA;[Iris][2] was the messenger of the Olympian gods during this period.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And her twin, [Arke][3] chose to support the other side, the titans, in this conflict.&#xD;&#xA;Thanks @Spencer for bringing theses two deities up!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another good competitor would be &#xD;&#xA;## Helios ##&#xD;&#xA;The sun titan-god that dedicates each day driving his chariot across the sky. But its speed depends on his horses then.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another Mythologic one but not a god&#xD;&#xA;## Ajax ##&#xD;&#xA;Who is said to fight a whole army alone while the front line is on many different [warships][4], which means he can leap from boat to boat as a dazzling speed. In his characteristics we can find [swift][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And if you want one historical but still epic if not mythic guy, you can count on&#xD;&#xA;## Pheidippides &#xD;&#xA;Who was a simple [herald][6] who ran from Marathon to announce their victory over Persia to Athenians. He died heroically right after the announcement (Adrenalin, you'll say). This story later inspired the Marathon sport discipline.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/HermesTreasures.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iris_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arke&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_the_Great#Trojan_War&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epithets_in_Homer#Individuals&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://Pheidippides" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17993" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5414" RevisionGUID="59f04623-aaf7-46e2-99bb-3d571856365d" CreationDate="2019-01-28T10:05:28.160" UserId="5711" Text="I am aware of Hercules and his two sons, as well as of the Horae who guard thedoors of Olympos, but were there any other deities instructed with guarding the home of the gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17994" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5414" RevisionGUID="59f04623-aaf7-46e2-99bb-3d571856365d" CreationDate="2019-01-28T10:05:28.160" UserId="5711" Text="Who were the Guardians of the Olymp?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17995" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5414" RevisionGUID="59f04623-aaf7-46e2-99bb-3d571856365d" CreationDate="2019-01-28T10:05:28.160" UserId="5711" Text="|greek|olympians|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17996" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5414" RevisionGUID="a3c7af26-f870-4dd0-8d77-c31175996e9c" CreationDate="2019-01-28T12:33:08.107" UserId="57" Comment="added 1 character in body; edited title" Text="I am aware of Hercules and his two sons, as well as of the Horae who guard the doors of Olympus, but were there any other deities instructed with guarding the home of the gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="17997" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5414" RevisionGUID="a3c7af26-f870-4dd0-8d77-c31175996e9c" CreationDate="2019-01-28T12:33:08.107" UserId="57" Comment="added 1 character in body; edited title" Text="Who were the Guardians of Olympus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18001" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5417" RevisionGUID="d2b32164-e5fd-4330-994b-8595561284c0" CreationDate="2019-01-28T16:46:19.503" UserId="5762" Text="I know Marvel's Thor uses an axe (Jarnbjorn) and sword (Odinsword) in the comics, but an acquaintance of mine insists that the Thor of the norse Mythology also used them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I couldn't find any source that explicitly mentions Thor using such weapons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a source claiming Thor used an axe and/or sword in the Norse Mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18002" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5417" RevisionGUID="d2b32164-e5fd-4330-994b-8595561284c0" CreationDate="2019-01-28T16:46:19.503" UserId="5762" Text="Does Thor use an axe and/or sword in the Myths?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18003" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5417" RevisionGUID="d2b32164-e5fd-4330-994b-8595561284c0" CreationDate="2019-01-28T16:46:19.503" UserId="5762" Text="|norse|thor|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18005" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="1853" RevisionGUID="e6a70a38-d893-4ead-adff-2b0aea9833d0" CreationDate="2019-01-28T19:04:01.803" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="18008" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="740" RevisionGUID="18c7fcbf-41e4-4686-9928-77212b2d31de" CreationDate="2019-01-28T19:05:11.087" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="18009" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5419" RevisionGUID="ccf1ce1c-d02e-451c-b9ce-07145361ef36" CreationDate="2019-01-28T20:34:24.023" UserId="666" Text="No, those weapons are inventions of the comics.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We do have a couple of stories in which Thor can not use Mjölnir. In [Þrymskviða][1], the hammer has been stolen by the giant Thrym who demands the hand of Freya in order to give it back. Thor is dressed up in bridal clothing to retrieve his hammer, so it is difficult to say whether the apparent lack of other weapons is part of his disguise or due to lack of options.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the story of [Þórsdrápa][2], also told, with variantions, by Snorri in [Skáldskaparmál][3], Loki tricks Thor into going on a journey to defeat the giant Geirröðr without the help of Mjölnir or his belt of strength. Apparently, he has no alternatives, because we are told that Thor meets the friendly giantess Grid, who gives him good advice and lends him her belt of strength, a pair of iron gloves, and a staff called *Gríðarvölr*. He uses both the staff and the gloves to defeat enemies he meets.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, no, Thor does, afaik, not use either sword nor axe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Erymskvi%C3%B0a&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9E%C3%B3rsdr%C3%A1pa&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sk%C3%A1ldskaparm%C3%A1l" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18010" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3304" RevisionGUID="0c5d0998-e81c-4ec4-9a95-19900213aa94" CreationDate="2019-01-28T22:07:38.750" UserId="2810" Comment="clean up English, correct terminology" Text="According to scripture [Judaism doesn't support gay marriage][1].  [Christianity is similar][1].  [Hindiusm talks about people born with out gender parts and therefore being 3rd gender](https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/175/what-does-hinduism-say-about-third-gendered-people) but [ doesn't accept homosexuality](https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/8744/vedas-and-vedic-dharma-on-homosexuality).  [Buddhism says nothing about gay marriage or 3rd genders](https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/questions/1886/what-is-the-attitude-toward-homosexuality-in-buddhism).  [Islam also is against homosexuality][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would like to refrain from talking about intersex people (people born without sexual organs or both male and female organs), because these are incredibly rare compared to actual homosexuality, and, as outlined in Hinduism, are considered to be an exception.  Chinese religions like Taoism and Confucianism say nothing about homosexuality.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any religions that are both established (implying that they are relatively old, but still practiced) and explicitly support homosexuality?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/17815/how-do-christians-in-support-of-gay-marriage-interpret-anti-gay-bible-verses&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://islam.stackexchange.com/questions/226/what-does-the-quran-say-about-homosexuality" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18011" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3304" RevisionGUID="0c5d0998-e81c-4ec4-9a95-19900213aa94" CreationDate="2019-01-28T22:07:38.750" UserId="2810" Comment="clean up English, correct terminology" Text="Are there any established religions that explicitly support homosexuality?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18012" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3304" RevisionGUID="0c5d0998-e81c-4ec4-9a95-19900213aa94" CreationDate="2019-01-28T22:07:38.750" Comment="Proposed by 2810 approved by 3302 edit id of 1701" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18013" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5420" RevisionGUID="fc866766-702b-4b73-9971-481367d25d9a" CreationDate="2019-01-29T00:30:52.407" UserId="5726" Text="There are satan/devil representations in other faiths/myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But who was the first? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since religions sometimes take over traits of the old ones there must be an originator.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The answer could be from multiple cultures from different parts of the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or just one." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18014" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5420" RevisionGUID="fc866766-702b-4b73-9971-481367d25d9a" CreationDate="2019-01-29T00:30:52.407" UserId="5726" Text="Who was the first satan/devil type creature in mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18015" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5420" RevisionGUID="fc866766-702b-4b73-9971-481367d25d9a" CreationDate="2019-01-29T00:30:52.407" UserId="5726" Text="|mythical-creatures|comparative|origins|the-devil|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18016" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="960" RevisionGUID="839c9a15-3ae5-4697-ac78-b3f1b5c895b2" CreationDate="2019-01-29T07:51:07.667" UserId="2810" Comment="add transcription of image, for accessibility purposes" Text="The more popular version of the Talos story can be found in the Argonautica. In it, Talos was an automaton, a self operating machine. He was forged by Hephaistos and was tasked by Zeus to guard Europa's hideout in mount Dikti (in Crete): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Talos, the man of bronze, as he broke off rocks from the hard cliff, stayed them from fastening hawsers to the shore, when they came to the roadstead of Dicte's haven. He was of the stock of bronze, of the men sprung from ash-trees, the last left among the sons of the gods; and the son of Cronos gave him to Europa to be the warder of Crete and to stride round the island thrice a day with his feet of bronze. Now in all the rest of his body and limbs was he fashioned of bronze and invulnerable; but beneath the sinew by his ankle was a blood-red vein; and this, with its issues of life and death, was covered by a thin skin. So the heroes, though outworn with toil, quickly backed their ship from the land in sore dismay. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Project Gutenberg EBook of The Argonautica, by Apollonius Rhodius](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/830/830-h/830-h.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pseudo-Apollodorus' version differs a bit; Talos is tasked by king Minos to patrol Crete, and he might be shaped like a bull: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Putting to sea from there, they were hindered from touching at Crete by Talos. Some say that he was a man of the Brazen Race, others that he was given to Minos by Hephaestus; he was a brazen man, but some say that he was a bull. He had a single vein extending from his neck to his ankles, and a bronze nail was rammed home at the end of the vein. This Talos kept guard, running round the island thrice every day; wherefore, when he saw the Argo standing inshore, he pelted it as usual with stones. His death was brought about by the wiles of Medea, whether, as some say, she drove him mad by drugs, or, as others say, she promised to make him immortal and then drew out the nail, so that all the ichor gushed out and he died. But some say that Poeas shot him dead in the ankle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Book 1, Apollodorus, Library, Sir James George Frazer, Ed.](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0548.tlg001.perseus-eng1:1.9)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Regardless of these differences Talos doesn't appear to be intelligent in either version. He is following instructions mechanically, similarly to Hephaistos' other automatons (e.g. the Khalkotauroi or the Cabeirian Horses). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a sidenote, these coins from Phaistos tell us the Cretans thought Talos had wings. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![coins depicting Talos with wings][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately a tale of a flying Talos didn't survive.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/zEiSf.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18017" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="960" RevisionGUID="839c9a15-3ae5-4697-ac78-b3f1b5c895b2" CreationDate="2019-01-29T07:51:07.667" Comment="Proposed by 2810 approved by 57 edit id of 1702" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18021" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5420" RevisionGUID="b3f222f7-60cc-47e6-aa85-92efa60c1dcf" CreationDate="2019-01-29T16:25:44.707" UserId="5726" Comment="improved question" Text="There are satan/devil representations in other faiths/myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But who was the first to have a role and background similar to Satan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since religions sometimes take over traits of the old ones there must be an originator.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The answer could be from multiple cultures from different parts of the world, or just one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Preferably male but if there is a female version (or a genderless version) who was earlier than the male version that would be the most acceptable answer." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18023" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5420" RevisionGUID="b3f222f7-60cc-47e6-aa85-92efa60c1dcf" CreationDate="2019-01-29T16:25:44.707" UserId="5726" Comment="improved question" Text="Who was the first Satan like deity/creature/person in mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18024" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5420" RevisionGUID="610a88ba-b59c-4138-8d2c-2817c7b6f9f4" CreationDate="2019-01-29T16:55:35.570" UserId="5726" Comment="edited body" Text="There are satan/devil representations in other faiths/myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But who was the first to have a role and background similar to Satan?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since religions sometimes take over traits of the old ones there must be an originator.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The answer could be from multiple cultures from different parts of the world, or just one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Preferably male but if there is a female version (or a genderless version) who was earlier than the male version that would be the most acceptable answer." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18030" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5424" RevisionGUID="b7e6cf4e-4167-443f-80ed-bf7643f9ecce" CreationDate="2019-01-31T06:35:20.403" UserId="5771" Text="Did Egyptians worship feline gods and canine dogs at the same time in history?  &#xD;&#xA;Did any other cultures?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18031" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5424" RevisionGUID="b7e6cf4e-4167-443f-80ed-bf7643f9ecce" CreationDate="2019-01-31T06:35:20.403" UserId="5771" Text="Did they have Cats and Dogs?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18032" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5424" RevisionGUID="b7e6cf4e-4167-443f-80ed-bf7643f9ecce" CreationDate="2019-01-31T06:35:20.403" UserId="5771" Text="|egyptian|symbolism|iconography|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18033" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5424" RevisionGUID="1947da39-62bc-4836-942c-2fce1e41afee" CreationDate="2019-01-31T13:31:08.857" UserId="5541" Comment="Unbroading the question, keeping it to Egypt deities" Text="Did Egyptians worship feline and canine gods at the same period in history?  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18034" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5424" RevisionGUID="1947da39-62bc-4836-942c-2fce1e41afee" CreationDate="2019-01-31T13:31:08.857" UserId="5541" Comment="Unbroading the question, keeping it to Egypt deities" Text="Did the ancient egyptians worship Cats and Dogs deities at the same period?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18035" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5424" RevisionGUID="1947da39-62bc-4836-942c-2fce1e41afee" CreationDate="2019-01-31T13:31:08.857" Comment="Proposed by 5541 approved by 5771 edit id of 1703" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18036" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5425" RevisionGUID="ab6c2e21-3f93-4da0-9234-6777376c10d7" CreationDate="2019-01-31T14:44:42.893" UserId="5771" Text="You need to understand the devil is a construct of religious persecution by Christianity.  Hades, Lord of the Underworld, was at one time more widely worshipped than any god since.  Early Christians demonized pagans with such imagery as evil.  So literally, the first pagan demon was probably Lilith (as a snake representing Kronos).  But The (horned one in hell) Devil was originally based on Hades and adapted in later imagery, by way of horns, to other representations of other pagan gods.  Hope that helped? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18037" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5426" RevisionGUID="c65012b7-d1ef-4e8d-806e-d72a00be18de" CreationDate="2019-01-31T14:56:15.067" UserId="5541" Text="So as @Nuloen The Seeker pointed out, Baba Yaga has a role as gardian of the dead and the [underworld][1] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(The french Wikipedia seems to be the most complete one on Baba Yaga, maybe because more of [Vladimir Propp][2] work were [translated in French][3]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There seems to be a possible association between Baba Yaga and Morana the goddess of winter, found on [Slavorum][4]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In ancient times people especially worshiped Morena in the territory of Kievan Rus. Initially, she was the goddess that was worshiped as a homemaker, but also the goddess of fertility and mother of all living. However with time gradually Morena transformed into the evil messenger of wilting, impotent old age and disease. It should be noted that in many ancient tales she confronts Perun and sometimes even joins Veles in mischief and trickery.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They seem to have a lot of caracteristics in common:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Mother&#xD;&#xA; - Old age&#xD;&#xA; - Impotent&#xD;&#xA; - Sometimes achieving mischief and trickery (Baba Yaga is evil almost the two third of the fairy tales where she appears)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By going a bit down in the article, you can also clearly read:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In some legends it is said that BabaYaga is also one of the creations of mistress Morena, or even that BabaYaga (Baba Roga among south Slavs) is just one of the transformations of Morena.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now lets present the infamous &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Koshchei the Deathless][5]&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;His immortality is described as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Most seen Koshchei as an immortal being and one of the fairytales opens up with him saying  “My death is far away: the sea on the ocean there is an island on the island of oak stands under an oak chest buried in the chest – a hare, in a hare – a duck in a duck – egg and egg – death my”. Many scholars have seen in this “matryoshka” interpretation model of the universe: water (sea, ocean), earth (the island), plants (oak), animals (rabbit), poultry (duck), and oak – “world tree”. In other words, you can only kill Koshchei by destorying the world itself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He was seen as an evil, powerful, being:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Still, in various Russian myths Koshchei is seen as a powerful frost sorcerer, with cunning mind and not so good intentions. In few different fairy tales he turns people into a walnut, or even turns entire kingdoms into stone so folk legends still see him as an evil character. As a old cunning sorcerer in fairy tales he is usually bound to build his activity around young pretty girls where he tries to seduce them and win their love with magic or even brute force. In his failure and rage he even curses these young girls in animal form to become frogs, snakes and other wild life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So now it brings us there:&#xD;&#xA;## Why would Baba Yaga want Koshchei heart? ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the obvious reasons would be to stop his nefarious actions and maybe even send him to the Underworld to restore the worlds balance (Yeah I still think immortality is OP). There's this story about him and Ivan Tesarevich, where Ivan found him and helped him recover by breaking his wife, Maya, trust:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As days passed Ivan was curious and he entered the closet even thought his wife Marya told him not to. In this closet he found an old man chain-locked to the wall by twelve chains. Old man was weak and in terrible condition and he begged Ivan for water and food, or he would die there. Ivan being good hearthed gave him a few barrels of water. Just few moments after drinking it, the old men started to restore himself and suddenly it was clear, he revealed his true form, it was Koshchei the Deathless. Now fully restored and replenished Koschei was strong enough to break free of the wall chains and in anger he said he will kidnap Marya.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After a lot of adventures, deaths and resurrections, Ivan encounters Baba Yaga that gives him a horse faster than the one Koschei owns:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; After successfully completing few tasks for Baba Yaga he was awarded with the fast stead. With the new horse he was finally able to save Marya and escape Koshchei once and for all!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So we can imagine Baba Yaga would want to avoid the nefarious action of Koshchei. But then, we can see in the end of the page about [Morana][4]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Eastern Slavs also believed that Morena was the wife of Koshchei the Deathless, who loved to make mischief to people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the actual reason to getting the heart can also be to gain control over her husband and maybe stopping his actions without hurting him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baba_Yaga_(mythologie)#Gardienne_du_royaume_des_morts&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://Vladimir%20Propp&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Propp#Traductions_fran%C3%A7aises&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.slavorum.org/morena-and-legends-of-this-ancient-slavic-goddess-of-winter/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.slavorum.org/koshchei-the-deathless-legend-of-immortal-slavic-villain/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18038" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5426" RevisionGUID="d5ffa133-4ea2-4f8b-8ba7-bc7d79f7c236" CreationDate="2019-01-31T15:26:38.040" UserId="5541" Comment="Added the simple control over Koschei reason" Text="So as @Nuloen The Seeker pointed out, Baba Yaga has a role as gardian of the dead and the [underworld][1] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(The french Wikipedia seems to be the most complete one on Baba Yaga, maybe because more of [Vladimir Propp][2] work were [translated in French][3]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There seems to be a possible association between Baba Yaga and Morana the goddess of winter, found on [Slavorum][4]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In ancient times people especially worshiped Morena in the territory of Kievan Rus. Initially, she was the goddess that was worshiped as a homemaker, but also the goddess of fertility and mother of all living. However with time gradually Morena transformed into the evil messenger of wilting, impotent old age and disease. It should be noted that in many ancient tales she confronts Perun and sometimes even joins Veles in mischief and trickery.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They seem to have a lot of caracteristics in common:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Mother&#xD;&#xA; - Old age&#xD;&#xA; - Impotent&#xD;&#xA; - Sometimes achieving mischief and trickery (Baba Yaga is evil almost the two third of the fairy tales where she appears)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By going a bit down in the article, you can also clearly read:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In some legends it is said that BabaYaga is also one of the creations of mistress Morena, or even that BabaYaga (Baba Roga among south Slavs) is just one of the transformations of Morena.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now lets present the infamous &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Koshchei the Deathless][5]&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;His immortality is described as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Most seen Koshchei as an immortal being and one of the fairytales opens up with him saying  “My death is far away: the sea on the ocean there is an island on the island of oak stands under an oak chest buried in the chest – a hare, in a hare – a duck in a duck – egg and egg – death my”. Many scholars have seen in this “matryoshka” interpretation model of the universe: water (sea, ocean), earth (the island), plants (oak), animals (rabbit), poultry (duck), and oak – “world tree”. In other words, you can only kill Koshchei by destorying the world itself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He was seen as an evil, powerful, being:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Still, in various Russian myths Koshchei is seen as a powerful frost sorcerer, with cunning mind and not so good intentions. In few different fairy tales he turns people into a walnut, or even turns entire kingdoms into stone so folk legends still see him as an evil character. As a old cunning sorcerer in fairy tales he is usually bound to build his activity around young pretty girls where he tries to seduce them and win their love with magic or even brute force. In his failure and rage he even curses these young girls in animal form to become frogs, snakes and other wild life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So now it brings us there:&#xD;&#xA;## Why would Baba Yaga want Koshchei heart? ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the obvious reasons would be to gain control over the powerful and immortal Koshchei.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another would be to stop his nefarious actions and maybe even send him to the Underworld to restore the worlds balance (Yeah I still think immortality is OP). There's this story about him and Ivan Tesarevich, where Ivan found him and helped him recover by breaking his wife, Maya, trust:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As days passed Ivan was curious and he entered the closet even thought his wife Marya told him not to. In this closet he found an old man chain-locked to the wall by twelve chains. Old man was weak and in terrible condition and he begged Ivan for water and food, or he would die there. Ivan being good hearthed gave him a few barrels of water. Just few moments after drinking it, the old men started to restore himself and suddenly it was clear, he revealed his true form, it was Koshchei the Deathless. Now fully restored and replenished Koschei was strong enough to break free of the wall chains and in anger he said he will kidnap Marya.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After a lot of adventures, deaths and resurrections, Ivan encounters Baba Yaga that gives him a horse faster than the one Koschei owns:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; After successfully completing few tasks for Baba Yaga he was awarded with the fast stead. With the new horse he was finally able to save Marya and escape Koshchei once and for all!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So we can imagine Baba Yaga would want to avoid the nefarious action of Koshchei. But then, we can see in the end of the page about [Morana][4]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Eastern Slavs also believed that Morena was the wife of Koshchei the Deathless, who loved to make mischief to people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the actual reason to getting the heart can also be to gain control over her husband and maybe stopping his actions without hurting him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baba_Yaga_(mythologie)#Gardienne_du_royaume_des_morts&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://Vladimir%20Propp&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Propp#Traductions_fran%C3%A7aises&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.slavorum.org/morena-and-legends-of-this-ancient-slavic-goddess-of-winter/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.slavorum.org/koshchei-the-deathless-legend-of-immortal-slavic-villain/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18039" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5427" RevisionGUID="7d9497de-e66d-463f-b954-63e8752e0974" CreationDate="2019-01-31T16:16:15.387" UserId="5511" Text="I think &quot;background&quot; is going to exclude many mythologies with creatures having more or less the same role, if we include the notion of &quot;rising up against the supreme deity of the mythology&quot;. Satan after all literally means &quot;adversary&quot; and this background is exclusive to Judeo-Christian mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we focus on role, probably the oldest example would be Egyptian mythology's [Ammit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammit)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18040" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5428" RevisionGUID="0bdc13f6-b2b4-4818-840d-515f7658f167" CreationDate="2019-01-31T16:29:39.610" UserId="5771" Text="I can tell you in the oldest written version, Kronos was not exactly released.  He was reincarnated as Hecate.  Thats why Hecate was most honored above all else by Zeus.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18041" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5429" RevisionGUID="da29763c-545d-4862-9342-0861c4af4831" CreationDate="2019-01-31T17:42:27.603" UserId="5511" Text="Dog and Cat deities were worshiped together as early as the Second Dynasty (2890 BCE) in the forms of [Anubis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anubis) and [Bastet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastet), but the recorded worship of Anubis dates back to even the First Dynasty (3100 BCE). Bastet's worship centered around the city of [Bubastis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubastis), while Anubis took a central role in the afterlife as ruler of the underworld until this reign was passed to Osiris the evolving mythology of the Middle Kingdom." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18045" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5431" RevisionGUID="7ba9e545-9051-46ae-abd7-c1a8aac8e0a0" CreationDate="2019-02-01T10:48:00.523" UserId="5541" Text="As @Codosaur Pointed out, Satan is a character that rises up against the supreme deity of the mythology. I would add that in the Christian rligion, he comes by many [names][1] I'll start a list here and we'll try to explain some of their signification:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Lord of the underworld / Lord of [Hell][2] / Lord of this World:&#xD;&#xA;Satan is supposed to rule over hell, so the afterlife of the &quot;bad guys&quot;, he was put in this role after rebelling against God, it doesn't mean he wants to do it as the [Lucifer TV-shows][3] (That I advise you to watch)&#xD;&#xA; - [Lucifer / The Morning Star][4]: {Latin}&#xD;&#xA;Often portrayed as a beautiful archangel and the bringer of light, the illuminator&#xD;&#xA; - [Mephistopheles][5]: {German}&#xD;&#xA;Which Etymology seems to come from: &quot;scatterer, disperser&quot;, &quot;plasterer of lies&quot;, &quot;light&quot;, &quot;philis&quot; meaning &quot;loving&quot; maybe meaning &quot;not-light-loving&quot;, it is seen as a parody of Lucifer but I'll mostly just remember it as Lucifer plus a touch of &quot;scatterer of light&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After theses explanations about some of the names that are attributed to Satan, I want to point out the part where he is supposed to:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Rebel against the supreme God&#xD;&#xA; - Scatters the light&#xD;&#xA; - Be the ruler of the afterlife (Mostly the punishing part)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Prometheus, ~1800BCE ##&#xD;&#xA;The [titan god][6] of forethought and crafty counsel created the humans on Zeus order. He then tried to improve their life by all means. One of those means implied giving the fire to the humans, this can be seen as the bringer of light (1st point). Doing this angered Zeus, the supreme deity (2nd point).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The timeline here is the one of the [Greek mythology][7], which started around 18th century BC:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Greek myths were initially propagated in an oral-poetic tradition most likely by Minoan and Mycenaean singers starting in the 18th century BC&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then I found out about the [Japanese creation myth][8], where we can find two primordial gods:&#xD;&#xA;## Izanagi and Izanami, ~700BCE##&#xD;&#xA;Which share the characteristics of Satan that I described earlier mixed with those of a supreme God. They are the creator of everything (Japan), keep in mind the fire creating (1st point):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Izanagi and Izanami then created gods and goddesses of the trees, mountains, valleys, streams, winds, and other natural features of Japan. While giving birth to the fire god Kagutsuchi, Izanami was badly burned. As she lay dying, she produced more gods and goddesses. Other deities emerged from the tears of her grief-stricken husband.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Izanagi angered Izanami a bit after her death (2nd point) and after this episode Izanami became the ruler of the Underworld (3rd point):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When Izanami died, she went to Yomi-tsu Kuni, the land of darkness and death. Izanagi followed her there and tried to bring her back. But Izanami's body had already begun to decay, and she hid in the shadows and told Izanagi that she could not leave. Izanagi could not resist looking at his beloved wife one last time. When he lit a torch and saw her rotting corpse, he fled in terror. Angry that Izanagi had seen her, Izanami sent hideous spirits to chase him. Izanagi managed to escape, and he sealed off the passage to Yomi-tsu Kuni with a huge boulder. Izanami remained there and ruled over the dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the [Wikipedia page][9] about this story, we can read that they are both infuriated against each other, so we can give all the credit of being the &quot;Satan&quot; of this religion to Izanami:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Izanagi burst through the entrance and quickly pushed a boulder to the entrance of Yomi. Izanami screamed from behind this barricade and told Izanagi that, if he left her, she would destroy 1,000 living people every day. He furiously replied that he would give life to 1,500.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the period where those myth were created, I didn't find something more precise about the oral sharing([1][10], [2][11]):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The myths of Japanese popular religion derive from oral traditions codified for posterity in two books: the Nihon Shoki, published in 720 CE and the Kojiki written by an official of the Empress Gemmyo between 708 and 714 CE. An additional source, the Kogoshui was written in c. 807 CE by Imibe-no-Hironari who collected together oral traditions omitted from the Nihon Shoki and Kojiki.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Will evolve to a community Wiki ##&#xD;&#xA;If someone asks to add a contribution to this in the comments, else I'll keep the ownership, I'm also open to suggestion and improvement&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil#Demons&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer_(TV_series)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mephistopheles&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanPrometheus.html&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Iz-Le/Japanese-Mythology.html&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_mythology#Izanagi_in_the_underworld&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://www.ancient.eu/Izanami_and_Izanagi/&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://owlcation.com/social-sciences/IzanagiandIzunami" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18046" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5432" RevisionGUID="f0525e50-f5ac-4bb1-90de-50ad7828bea1" CreationDate="2019-02-01T18:27:20.130" UserId="2892" Text="This is a complex question, and entire books have been written on it.  The modern conception of Satan is a mixture of qualities arising from paganism (horns, etc.) but the conception of Satan as evil in the Christian sense almost certainly arises from [Zoroastrianism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism) in the form of [Ahriman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahriman). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*This may be a preliminary answer--I'll be happy to provide more detail and support upon request*&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18049" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1227" RevisionGUID="a3164d5b-4032-4f82-ae37-944e4aa09ab0" CreationDate="2019-02-01T23:15:25.123" UserId="2807" Comment="Added 'oedipus' tag" Text="What is the relationship between the Oedipus complex and the character Oedipus? Is there any? It is a big jump between someone who answered a riddle to a psychological complex." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18050" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1227" RevisionGUID="a3164d5b-4032-4f82-ae37-944e4aa09ab0" CreationDate="2019-02-01T23:15:25.123" UserId="2807" Comment="Added 'oedipus' tag" Text="|greek|oedipus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18051" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1223" RevisionGUID="725537f5-9a9b-4a64-aa45-75e1ba3e9cc7" CreationDate="2019-02-01T23:15:28.957" UserId="2807" Comment="Added 'oedipus' tag" Text="|greek|oedipus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18052" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1714" RevisionGUID="f556ae83-70b4-4b8f-ac3e-c68cdd1b5737" CreationDate="2019-02-01T23:15:32.173" UserId="2807" Comment="Added 'oedipus' tag" Text="How did the tone of Oedipus change with its retellings?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Darker? Or lighter? Or changing with each telling?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Darker would be more death, more suicide, more incest, etc, while lighter would be the opposite.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Such as Oedipus' kids being Jocasta's as well instead of from another wife would be darker." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18053" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1714" RevisionGUID="f556ae83-70b4-4b8f-ac3e-c68cdd1b5737" CreationDate="2019-02-01T23:15:32.173" UserId="2807" Comment="Added 'oedipus' tag" Text="|greek|oedipus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18056" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="858" RevisionGUID="def71d29-bf59-461c-8e19-dcb17c0a6758" CreationDate="2019-02-02T20:21:35.440" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="18057" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5431" RevisionGUID="7ccc7c82-b9fe-499a-8b6c-cbd8c3471cf9" CreationDate="2019-02-03T18:24:00.483" UserId="5541" Comment="Modified the timeline following DukeZhou advice" Text="As @Codosaur Pointed out, Satan is a character that rises up against the supreme deity of the mythology. I would add that in the Christian rligion, he comes by many [names][1] I'll start a list here and we'll try to explain some of their signification:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Lord of the underworld / Lord of [Hell][2] / Lord of this World:&#xD;&#xA;Satan is supposed to rule over hell, so the afterlife of the &quot;bad guys&quot;, he was put in this role after rebelling against God, it doesn't mean he wants to do it as the [Lucifer TV-shows][3] (That I advise you to watch)&#xD;&#xA; - [Lucifer / The Morning Star][4]: {Latin}&#xD;&#xA;Often portrayed as a beautiful archangel and the bringer of light, the illuminator&#xD;&#xA; - [Mephistopheles][5]: {German}&#xD;&#xA;Which Etymology seems to come from: &quot;scatterer, disperser&quot;, &quot;plasterer of lies&quot;, &quot;light&quot;, &quot;philis&quot; meaning &quot;loving&quot; maybe meaning &quot;not-light-loving&quot;, it is seen as a parody of Lucifer but I'll mostly just remember it as Lucifer plus a touch of &quot;scatterer of light&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After theses explanations about some of the names that are attributed to Satan, I want to point out the part where he is supposed to:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Rebel against the supreme God&#xD;&#xA; - Scatters the light&#xD;&#xA; - Be the ruler of the afterlife (Mostly the punishing part)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Prometheus, before 800BCE ##&#xD;&#xA;The [titan god][6] of forethought and crafty counsel created the humans on Zeus order. He then tried to improve their life by all means. One of those means implied giving the fire to the humans, this can be seen as the bringer of light (1st point). Doing this angered Zeus, the supreme deity (2nd point).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The timeline here is [this one][7], which states the first records 8th century BCE, thanks @DukeZhou for the correction:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then I found out about the [Japanese creation myth][8], where we can find two primordial gods:&#xD;&#xA;## Izanagi and Izanami, ~700BCE##&#xD;&#xA;Which share the characteristics of Satan that I described earlier mixed with those of a supreme God. They are the creator of everything (Japan), keep in mind the fire creating (1st point):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Izanagi and Izanami then created gods and goddesses of the trees, mountains, valleys, streams, winds, and other natural features of Japan. While giving birth to the fire god Kagutsuchi, Izanami was badly burned. As she lay dying, she produced more gods and goddesses. Other deities emerged from the tears of her grief-stricken husband.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Izanagi angered Izanami a bit after her death (2nd point) and after this episode Izanami became the ruler of the Underworld (3rd point):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When Izanami died, she went to Yomi-tsu Kuni, the land of darkness and death. Izanagi followed her there and tried to bring her back. But Izanami's body had already begun to decay, and she hid in the shadows and told Izanagi that she could not leave. Izanagi could not resist looking at his beloved wife one last time. When he lit a torch and saw her rotting corpse, he fled in terror. Angry that Izanagi had seen her, Izanami sent hideous spirits to chase him. Izanagi managed to escape, and he sealed off the passage to Yomi-tsu Kuni with a huge boulder. Izanami remained there and ruled over the dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the [Wikipedia page][9] about this story, we can read that they are both infuriated against each other, so we can give all the credit of being the &quot;Satan&quot; of this religion to Izanami:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Izanagi burst through the entrance and quickly pushed a boulder to the entrance of Yomi. Izanami screamed from behind this barricade and told Izanagi that, if he left her, she would destroy 1,000 living people every day. He furiously replied that he would give life to 1,500.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the period where those myth were created, I didn't find something more precise about the oral sharing([1][10], [2][11]):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The myths of Japanese popular religion derive from oral traditions codified for posterity in two books: the Nihon Shoki, published in 720 CE and the Kojiki written by an official of the Empress Gemmyo between 708 and 714 CE. An additional source, the Kogoshui was written in c. 807 CE by Imibe-no-Hironari who collected together oral traditions omitted from the Nihon Shoki and Kojiki.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Will evolve to a community Wiki ##&#xD;&#xA;If someone asks to add a contribution to this in the comments, else I'll keep the ownership, I'm also open to suggestion and improvement&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil#Demons&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer_(TV_series)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mephistopheles&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanPrometheus.html&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus#Oldest_legends&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Iz-Le/Japanese-Mythology.html&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_mythology#Izanagi_in_the_underworld&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://www.ancient.eu/Izanami_and_Izanagi/&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://owlcation.com/social-sciences/IzanagiandIzunami" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18058" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5435" RevisionGUID="92f6606e-82cb-4c03-8a9e-15f0bb6d03d8" CreationDate="2019-02-04T14:06:30.147" UserId="5779" Text="Hyperion east,Iapetus west,Coeus[Koios] north and Crius[Krios]" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18059" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="1785" RevisionGUID="c740845d-6570-46f4-a9be-a7745a5e80db" CreationDate="2019-02-04T15:27:54.103" UserId="183" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:183,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;HDE 226868&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="18065" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5420" RevisionGUID="cf77fb52-1dad-45a5-9bb6-5d2f5cf4d296" CreationDate="2019-02-05T14:49:12.960" UserId="5726" Comment="incl underworld tag" Text="|mythical-creatures|comparative|origins|underworld|the-devil|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18066" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5436" RevisionGUID="2089f195-c259-46d3-8315-b4dbb17a7ecc" CreationDate="2019-02-05T20:41:53.817" UserId="5093" Text="[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xA;&#xA;In this statue there is something what looks like a face on Athena's neck. I have seen it on some other statues of Athena. &#xA;What is it?  Is there a myth behind it? &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/EOvR5.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18067" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5436" RevisionGUID="2089f195-c259-46d3-8315-b4dbb17a7ecc" CreationDate="2019-02-05T20:41:53.817" UserId="5093" Text="What is that on Athena's neck?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18068" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5436" RevisionGUID="2089f195-c259-46d3-8315-b4dbb17a7ecc" CreationDate="2019-02-05T20:41:53.817" UserId="5093" Text="|greek|myth-identification|athena|goddesses|maiden-goddesses|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18069" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5436" RevisionGUID="18810335-22bd-4076-955e-fd9222e9a55a" CreationDate="2019-02-05T21:06:02.467" UserId="5093" Comment="added 1 character in body; edited title" Text="[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xA;&#xA;In this statue there is something what looks like a face on Athena's chest. I have seen it on some other statues of Athena. &#xA;What is it?  Is there a myth behind it? &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/EOvR5.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18070" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5436" RevisionGUID="18810335-22bd-4076-955e-fd9222e9a55a" CreationDate="2019-02-05T21:06:02.467" UserId="5093" Comment="added 1 character in body; edited title" Text="What is that on Athena's chest?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18071" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5437" RevisionGUID="65324cd0-1397-43f5-b4e0-a7a837463f18" CreationDate="2019-02-05T21:23:27.677" UserId="57" Text="It's not clear from your picture, but the face is most probably a [Gorgoneion][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Ancient Greece, the Gorgoneion (Greek: Γοργόνειον) was a special apotropaic amulet showing the Gorgon head, used most famously by the Olympian deities Athena and Zeus: both are said to have worn the gorgoneion as a protective pendant. It was assumed, among other godlike attributes, as a royal aegis to imply divine birth or protection, by rulers of the Hellenistic age, as shown, for instance, on the Alexander Mosaic and the Gonzaga Cameo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Wikipedia contributors. (2018, June 16). Gorgoneion. In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 21:22, February 5, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gorgoneion&amp;oldid=846161112&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ever-so-helpful theoi.com has tons of information on the mythology of the [Gorgons][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgoneion&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.theoi.com&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Gorgones.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18072" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5437" RevisionGUID="d796e82e-075c-404d-9d08-a05750364632" CreationDate="2019-02-05T21:31:13.833" UserId="57" Comment="added 45 characters in body" Text="It's not clear from your picture, but the face is most probably a [Gorgoneion][1], a recurring element of Athena's iconography:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Ancient Greece, the Gorgoneion (Greek: Γοργόνειον) was a special apotropaic amulet showing the Gorgon head, used most famously by the Olympian deities Athena and Zeus: both are said to have worn the gorgoneion as a protective pendant. It was assumed, among other godlike attributes, as a royal aegis to imply divine birth or protection, by rulers of the Hellenistic age, as shown, for instance, on the Alexander Mosaic and the Gonzaga Cameo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Wikipedia contributors. (2018, June 16). Gorgoneion. In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 21:22, February 5, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gorgoneion&amp;oldid=846161112&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ever-so-helpful theoi.com has tons of information on the mythology of the [Gorgons][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgoneion&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.theoi.com&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Gorgones.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18073" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5437" RevisionGUID="5c965097-c5f9-4fb9-94e1-5c4ce4e9b55f" CreationDate="2019-02-05T21:41:57.130" UserId="57" Comment="added 201 characters in body" Text="It's not clear from your picture, but the face is most probably a [Gorgoneion][1], a recurring element of Athena's iconography:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Ancient Greece, the Gorgoneion (Greek: Γοργόνειον) was a special apotropaic amulet showing the Gorgon head, used most famously by the Olympian deities Athena and Zeus: both are said to have worn the gorgoneion as a protective pendant. It was assumed, among other godlike attributes, as a royal aegis to imply divine birth or protection, by rulers of the Hellenistic age, as shown, for instance, on the Alexander Mosaic and the Gonzaga Cameo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Wikipedia contributors. (2018, June 16). Gorgoneion. In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 21:22, February 5, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gorgoneion&amp;oldid=846161112&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ever-so-helpful theoi.com has tons of information on the mythology of the [Gorgons][2], if you wish to know more about them. We also happen to host some very [interesting questions about Medusa and her sisters][3] on this site.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgoneion&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Gorgones.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/medusa?sort=votes&amp;pageSize=30" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18075" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5438" RevisionGUID="4b4b7822-0a96-44d0-b08d-3b0feea9a3bc" CreationDate="2019-02-06T13:39:11.817" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18076" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5438" RevisionGUID="4b4b7822-0a96-44d0-b08d-3b0feea9a3bc" CreationDate="2019-02-06T13:39:11.817" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18077" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5439" RevisionGUID="77cad5d3-0a84-43d7-9f91-212c0ebcd00a" CreationDate="2019-02-06T13:39:11.817" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18078" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5439" RevisionGUID="77cad5d3-0a84-43d7-9f91-212c0ebcd00a" CreationDate="2019-02-06T13:39:11.817" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18079" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5440" RevisionGUID="06e199cd-e451-4b3d-8e01-11997655ab1b" CreationDate="2019-02-06T13:41:36.017" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18080" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5440" RevisionGUID="06e199cd-e451-4b3d-8e01-11997655ab1b" CreationDate="2019-02-06T13:41:36.017" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18081" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5441" RevisionGUID="fc8c128f-095d-46cc-9865-01ec4f17bfff" CreationDate="2019-02-06T13:41:36.017" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18082" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5441" RevisionGUID="fc8c128f-095d-46cc-9865-01ec4f17bfff" CreationDate="2019-02-06T13:41:36.017" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18085" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5443" RevisionGUID="18a49b7a-9686-40cc-8965-b3289da8fbc6" CreationDate="2019-02-07T16:17:07.120" UserDisplayName="user5459" Text="Which myths feature such beings?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18086" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5443" RevisionGUID="18a49b7a-9686-40cc-8965-b3289da8fbc6" CreationDate="2019-02-07T16:17:07.120" UserDisplayName="user5459" Text="Any myths about rational beings (except gods) existing on earth before mankind?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18087" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5443" RevisionGUID="18a49b7a-9686-40cc-8965-b3289da8fbc6" CreationDate="2019-02-07T16:17:07.120" UserDisplayName="user5459" Text="|myth-identification|reference-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18088" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5443" RevisionGUID="1e3acf26-22d3-4f4f-8af6-81e079646ceb" CreationDate="2019-02-07T16:40:29.377" UserDisplayName="user5459" Comment="edited title" Text="Any myths about rational beings (except gods/immaterial beings) that walked on earth before mankind?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18089" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5443" RevisionGUID="69cb031c-b982-4850-a56f-bb4a5114f3e0" CreationDate="2019-02-07T20:17:04.343" UserDisplayName="user5459" Comment="added 179 characters in body" Text="Which myths feature such beings? I have found about the ispolini (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ispolin) from Bulgarian mythology, and the Chullachaki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chullachaki). Are there more?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18090" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5443" RevisionGUID="7a613623-bd4c-40a8-a26a-f584756186a1" CreationDate="2019-02-07T20:23:37.460" UserDisplayName="user5459" Comment="added 179 characters in body" Text="Which myths feature such beings? I have found about the Chullachaki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chullachaki). Are there more?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18091" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5443" RevisionGUID="4860737f-6b13-4dfa-b267-98e045a6a60f" CreationDate="2019-02-07T20:46:25.997" UserDisplayName="user5459" Comment="deleted 96 characters in body" Text="Which myths feature such beings?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18092" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5444" RevisionGUID="1938081d-338b-4f2a-92b0-67a003553739" CreationDate="2019-02-07T21:24:48.707" UserId="5794" Text="The Chinese/East Asian parable on a fox and a tiger goes like the following&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A fox asking to be walking in front of a tiger brags about being a fearsome animal and exudes borrowed confidence from scared spectators, who are actually scared of the tiger behind the fox. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The tiger himself also believes the fox is indeed a scary animal simply because he does not realize whom the spectators are actually afraid of. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a similar parable in the American, European or Western culture ?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18093" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5444" RevisionGUID="1938081d-338b-4f2a-92b0-67a003553739" CreationDate="2019-02-07T21:24:48.707" UserId="5794" Text="Is there a similar folklore/parable in American/Western/European culture to the East Asian (Chinese?) parable on a Fox and a Tiger?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18094" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5444" RevisionGUID="1938081d-338b-4f2a-92b0-67a003553739" CreationDate="2019-02-07T21:24:48.707" UserId="5794" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18095" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5389" RevisionGUID="0d6fe506-85e2-44a3-8d43-4f5eb3459f9b" CreationDate="2019-02-07T22:28:14.763" UserId="5726" Comment="answer finished" Text="That would have to be Raktabīja&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Hindu mythology, Raktabīja was an asura (loosely translated as demon) who fought with Shumbha and Nishumbha against Goddess Durga and Goddess Kali or Goddess Chamunda. Raktabīja had a boon that whenever a drop of his blood fell on the ground, a duplicate Raktabīja would be born at that spot (rakta=blood, bīja=seed; &quot; He for whom each drop of blood is a seed&quot;). According to some sources, Raktabija was, in his previous birth, Rambhasura, king of demons and the father of Mahishasura.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The eighth chapter of the Devi Mahatmya, raktabIja-vadh, focuses on Ambika's battle with Raktabīja as part of her battle against the asuras Shumbha and Nishumbha, who had disenfranchised the gods from heaven. Raktabīja was wounded, but drops of blood falling on the ground created innumerable other Raktabījas, and Ambika and the Matrikas were in difficulty. At this point, the Goddess Kali joined the battle, who stretched her tongue over the earth and licked up each drop of blood pouring from Raktabīja's body while other goddesses wounded him. Kali devoured his duplicates into her gaping mouth. This form who drank the demon's blood is also called Raktheshwari.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[link to wikipedia article][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raktab%C4%ABja&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As to wether there is a god specifically for clones, the answer would be no." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18100" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5447" RevisionGUID="086edc48-b216-4de8-8161-bec5b5b7950d" CreationDate="2019-02-10T13:40:16.310" UserId="5726" Text="On the subject of definition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Religion deals with the establishment of certain ideas that prove the existence of superhuman powers in the form of God or Gods.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It educates the individual with the customs and manners of a particular community or society based on the acceptance of some important faiths and beliefs. Religion is developed and propounded by religious leaders. When we look at the world today, there are many religions such as Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, etc. All these religions cater towards a single need of constructing a system of beliefs and guiding people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; **In almost all religions, there are mythologies.** Any given religion will dwell in the delineation of its mythological characters. This emphasizes that mythology plays a significant role in religion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Mythology is aimed at proving the truths and faiths established by religion.** Mythology aims to establish the faiths put forward by any religion through stories and epics. Mythological characters are created in order to prove the validity of religious statements. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Religion, on the other hand, depends on its mythology to survive.** This is the most important observation when it comes to the relationship between religion and mythology. **Mythology deals with characters that reflect the superhuman powers already spoken of by the concerned religion.** In short it can be said that mythology confirms and strengthens religious beliefs and truths. Religion sans mythology becomes weak in the course of time.&#xD;&#xA;Mythology unlike religion does not deal with the customs and manners of a particular community or society based on the acceptance of faiths and beliefs. It is developed and created by the sages and ancient saints that work for the establishment of truths in their respective religions. **Mythology creates interest in the following of any given religion.** These are the differences between religion and mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18101" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5448" RevisionGUID="0cd3eb1b-77e5-44a4-a338-ec90a587599f" CreationDate="2019-02-10T16:18:50.780" UserId="5710" Text="We all know Þórr means thunder and that Mjǫllnir may possibly mean lightning, however, in all the texts I've read, there isn't a single mention (or at least not a relevant one) of a connection between the mighty God and lightning bolts. I know that there was an association between him (actually **Þunraz*, I think) and Jupiter, which is shown in the week days in most romance languages (such as in italian &quot;*giovedì* &quot;[Jupiter's day]) and most Germanic languages (such as english &quot;Thursday&quot;) -- the famous *interpretātiō germānica*&#xA;Did the norseman believed that Thor, during the Viking Age, was really a storm-related God or was it a belief that vinished through time and is reserved to **Þunraz*?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18102" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5448" RevisionGUID="0cd3eb1b-77e5-44a4-a338-ec90a587599f" CreationDate="2019-02-10T16:18:50.780" UserId="5710" Text="What is the relationship between Thor and storms?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18103" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5448" RevisionGUID="0cd3eb1b-77e5-44a4-a338-ec90a587599f" CreationDate="2019-02-10T16:18:50.780" UserId="5710" Text="|norse|roman|thor|mjolnir|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18104" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5448" RevisionGUID="ef58c10b-7186-436e-ba2d-4225102e4e5f" CreationDate="2019-02-10T16:56:45.110" UserId="5710" Comment="deleted 4 characters in body; added 1 character in body" Text="We all know Þórr means thunder and that Mjǫllnir may possibly mean lightning, however, in all the texts I've read, there isn't a single mention (or at least not a relevant one) of a connection between the mighty God and lightning bolts. I know that there was an association between him (actually *Þunraz, I think) and Jupiter, which is shown in the week days in most romance languages (such as in italian &quot;*giovedì* &quot;[Jupiter's day]) and most Germanic languages (such as english &quot;Thursday&quot;) -- the famous *interpretātiō germānica*.&#xA;Did the norseman believed that Thor, during the Viking Age, was really a storm-related God or was it a belief that vinished through time and is reserved to *Þunraz?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18105" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5435" RevisionGUID="11e08153-68bd-41ae-a8f8-b0c65d6cf0ac" CreationDate="2019-02-10T17:50:55.413" UserId="5247" Comment="Added spaces, capitalisation and 'South' " Text="Hyperion East, Iapetus West, Coeus[Koios] North and Crius[Krios] South" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18106" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5435" RevisionGUID="11e08153-68bd-41ae-a8f8-b0c65d6cf0ac" CreationDate="2019-02-10T17:50:55.413" Comment="Proposed by 5247 approved by 2774, 292 edit id of 1704" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18107" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5441" RevisionGUID="520e8c7b-85a3-4221-a6f9-683a17c4268e" CreationDate="2019-02-10T17:51:14.007" UserId="5541" Comment="added 225 characters in body" Text="Lokasenna (&quot;Loki's flyting,&quot; &quot;Loki's wrangling,&quot; &quot;Loki's quarrel&quot;) is one of the poems of the Poetic Edda. The poem presents flyting between the gods and Loki. It is written in the ljóðaháttr metre, typical for wisdom verse. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18108" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5441" RevisionGUID="520e8c7b-85a3-4221-a6f9-683a17c4268e" CreationDate="2019-02-10T17:51:14.007" Comment="Proposed by 5541 approved by 2774, 292 edit id of 1707" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18109" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5439" RevisionGUID="37e628ab-601e-413a-a58f-8a2bf7292e46" CreationDate="2019-02-10T17:51:33.037" UserId="5541" Comment="Changed to add the For question..." Text="For question concerning the final events of history, or the ultimate destiny of humanity. The concept is commonly referred to as the &quot;end of the world&quot; or &quot;end times&quot;." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18110" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5439" RevisionGUID="37e628ab-601e-413a-a58f-8a2bf7292e46" CreationDate="2019-02-10T17:51:33.037" Comment="Proposed by 5541 approved by 2774, -1 edit id of 1706" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18111" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5439" RevisionGUID="eb397460-84ac-4a56-b651-3d58473451bf" CreationDate="2019-02-10T17:51:33.037" UserId="292" Comment="Changed to add the For question..." Text="For questions concerning the final events of history, or the ultimate destiny of humanity. The concept is commonly referred to as the &quot;end of the world&quot; or &quot;end times&quot;." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18114" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5450" RevisionGUID="6b1cfb90-b67f-42ff-946b-bb80fa5c3b19" CreationDate="2019-02-10T22:08:47.587" UserId="5726" Text="The 11th century Christian missionary Adam of Bremen, on noting the great temple of the gods in Uppsala, Sweden. wrote, **&quot;Thor, they say, presides over the air, he governs the thunder and lightening. the winds and rams.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Norse believed that during a Thunderstorm. Thor rode through the heavens on his chariot pulled by the goats Tanngrimi (&quot;gap-tooth&quot;) and Tannanost (&quot;tooth grinder.). Lightning dashed whenever he threw his hammer Mjollnir.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some good information about the viking age can be gotten from these treatise.&#xD;&#xA;[wikipedia to Gesta Hammaburgensis ecclesiae pontificum][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesta_Hammaburgensis_ecclesiae_pontificum&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Netherlands we have Donar, (west german thor) and here the story always went that when there was a thunderstorm Donar rode his chariot across the sky while slamming his hammer around making lightning." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18115" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5451" RevisionGUID="863b38bb-a6f5-4190-8ad8-af0dd59f8bae" CreationDate="2019-02-10T22:22:42.327" UserId="5726" Text="Red hair was a sign of witchcraft in Christian Europe and it's said that it was often seen as a marker of guilt in the eyes of witch finders.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many examples of redheads being stereotyped as untrustworthy in medieval times. The &quot;Proverbs of Alfred&quot; **warn not to choose a red-haired person as a friend** and the &quot;Secretum Secretorum&quot; **warns against using redheads as advisors.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The author Ruth Mellinkoff, in her excellent book, &quot;Outcasts,&quot; commented upon this prejudice, believing it to be a product of red hair's minority status in society.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Red hair, a red beard, and ruddy skin - separately or combined - have been considered suspect, impure, and dangerous because they did not meet the standards of the normal. That is essential to keep in mind is that they are minority features in all racial and ethnic groups, *even among the Irish*, who are widely thought to have more redheads.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She also relates an early example of Christian condemnation of red hair, quoting from a letter from St. Jerome which gave advice on raising daughters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*&quot;Do not dye her hair red and thereby presage for her the fires of hell.&quot;*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The medieval mind also attributed magical properties to the bodily fluids of redheads. For example, it was believed that the fat from a red-haired man could be used to make poison. Likewise, Theophilus Presbyter stated that the blood of a red-haired man was needed to turn copper into gold. The urine from red-haired boys was also used to make the paint for stained glass windows.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[the book][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.nl/books/about/Outcasts_Text.html?id=01LUWw4A7CgC&amp;redir_esc=y" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18118" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5452" RevisionGUID="1dd560e2-0972-4565-8eb2-a235622d4d8a" CreationDate="2019-02-10T23:05:24.143" UserId="5726" Text="I know one for certain, the pre-adamite jinn in Islamic mythology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;a Jinn is an invisible entity, created by God out of a &quot;mixture of fire&quot; or &quot;smokeless fire&quot;, who roamed the earth **before** Adam.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; The community of the Jinn race were like those of humans, but then corruption and injustice among them increased and all warnings sent by God were ignored. Consequently, God sent his angels to battle the infidel Jinn. Just a few survived, and were ousted to far islands or to the mountains. With the revelation of Islam, the Jinn were given a new chance to access salvation. But because of their **prior creation**, the jinn would attribute themselves to a superiority over humans and envy them for their place and rank on earth" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18119" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5450" RevisionGUID="5f4e51a6-ae91-4485-8bb6-58b8dde43845" CreationDate="2019-02-11T10:52:54.510" UserId="201" Comment="fixed punctuation and typos" Text="The 11th century Christian missionary Adam of Bremen, on noting the great temple of the gods in Uppsala, Sweden, wrote, **&quot;Thor, they say, presides over the air, he governs the thunder and lightning. the winds and rains.&quot;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Norse believed that during a thunderstorm, Thor rode through the heavens on his chariot pulled by the goats Tanngrimi (&quot;gap-tooth&quot;) and Tannanost (&quot;tooth grinder&quot;). Lightning dashed whenever he threw his hammer Mjolnir.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some good information about the viking age can be gotten from this treatise.&#xD;&#xA;[wikipedia to Gesta Hammaburgensis ecclesiae pontificum][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesta_Hammaburgensis_ecclesiae_pontificum&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Netherlands we have Donar (West German Thor), and here the story always went that when there was a thunderstorm Donar rode his chariot across the sky while slamming his hammer around making lightning." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18121" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5453" RevisionGUID="48fcb3e0-d7d9-4bb9-8a61-037d489f8532" CreationDate="2019-02-11T14:50:27.343" UserId="5807" Text="This is a story thread in Robert Burns's poem 'Tam O'Shanter' from 1791. Tam is spirited safely by his mare Maggie to a bridge, and the pursuing witches cannot follow him across the water." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18122" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5451" RevisionGUID="6fcde931-a696-4415-b359-ced06abfdb74" CreationDate="2019-02-11T16:22:42.513" UserId="5726" Comment="deleted 12 characters in body" Text="Red hair was a sign of witchcraft in Christian Europe and it's said that it was often seen as a marker of guilt in the eyes of witch finders.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many examples of redheads being stereotyped as untrustworthy in medieval times. The &quot;Proverbs of Alfred&quot; **warn not to choose a red-haired person as a friend** and the &quot;Secretum Secretorum&quot; **warns against using redheads as advisors.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The author Ruth Mellinkoff, in her excellent book, &quot;[Outcasts][1],&quot; commented upon this prejudice, believing it to be a product of red hair's minority status in society.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Red hair, a red beard, and ruddy skin - separately or combined - have been considered suspect, impure, and dangerous because they did not meet the standards of the normal. That is essential to keep in mind is that they are minority features in all racial and ethnic groups, *even among the Irish*, who are widely thought to have more redheads.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She also relates an early example of Christian condemnation of red hair, quoting from a letter from St. Jerome which gave advice on raising daughters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*&quot;Do not dye her hair red and thereby presage for her the fires of hell.&quot;*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The medieval mind also attributed magical properties to the bodily fluids of redheads. For example, it was believed that the fat from a red-haired man could be used to make poison. Likewise, Theophilus Presbyter stated that the blood of a red-haired man was needed to turn copper into gold. The urine from red-haired boys was also used to make the paint for stained glass windows.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.nl/books/about/Outcasts_Text.html?id=01LUWw4A7CgC&amp;redir_esc=y" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18123" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5450" RevisionGUID="954c5103-bd25-45b0-8ec8-33b7cc641763" CreationDate="2019-02-11T21:59:58.423" UserId="5726" Comment="Corrected names of the goats" Text="The 11th century Christian missionary Adam of Bremen, on noting the great temple of the gods in Uppsala, Sweden, wrote, **&quot;Thor, they say, presides over the air, he governs the thunder and lightning. the winds and rains.&quot;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Norse believed that during a thunderstorm, Thor rode through the heavens on his chariot pulled by the goats Tanngrisnir (&quot;gap-tooth&quot;) and Tanngnjóstr (&quot;tooth grinder&quot;). Lightning dashed whenever he threw his hammer Mjolnir.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some good information about the viking age can be gotten from this treatise.&#xD;&#xA;[wikipedia to Gesta Hammaburgensis ecclesiae pontificum][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesta_Hammaburgensis_ecclesiae_pontificum&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Netherlands we have Donar (West German Thor), and here the story always went that when there was a thunderstorm Donar rode his chariot across the sky while slamming his hammer around making lightning." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18124" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5454" RevisionGUID="b689e812-756b-4738-a5c7-5b6fe855388e" CreationDate="2019-02-12T02:54:07.877" UserId="5810" Text="That looks more like a capital A from a manuscript like the Book of Kells in Ireland. So if anything it could be taken as Alpha." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18127" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5424" RevisionGUID="be976e6d-5f3d-4025-902a-e7e0889677e8" CreationDate="2019-02-12T15:41:28.167" UserId="1241" Comment="edited title" Text="Did the ancient Egyptians worship Cats and Dogs deities at the same period?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18129" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5455" RevisionGUID="896daf08-2be6-45f2-8b4a-87e45cf54bab" CreationDate="2019-02-13T00:18:17.230" UserId="2892" Text="As Piper notes, [κόρη][1] (*kore-ay*) is the Greek word for girl.  The linked lexical entry lists usage as girl, bride, and daughter. All three usages are central to the Persephone myth in that, unlike her cousins, Athena and Artemis, Kore is wed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Her myth begins in childhood, picking blossoms with her *maidens*, then her abduction and *marriage*, and finally with Demeter searching for her *daughter*.  [Demeter][2], literally &quot;the Mother&quot; in Greek ([δή][3]  [μήτηρ][4]), is so bereaved, all plants die, what we now call winter. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's not just any marriage, but marriage to the Lord of the Underworld, and not willing but by abduction--these are representative of death.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The miracle is that she returns, hearkening the rebirth of Spring.  The girl has died and it is the woman, Persephone, who emerges.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Persephone's is the cycle of death and rebirth, eventually taking the form of the [Eleusinian Mysteries][5]. (This is similar to Christ's rebirth at [Easter][6], and the idea of the eternality of the spirit, via the Mysteries.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this sense, she is not just a kore, but The Kore.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Kore is the name of the goddess as girl; Persephone as woman and queen of the netherworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dko%2Frh&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3D*dhmh%2Fthr&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Ddh%2F&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dmh%2Fthr&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleusinian_Mysteries&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18130" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="79" RevisionGUID="f77db20f-0f24-42ce-9ef5-85a0c97215be" CreationDate="2019-02-13T00:18:59.657" UserId="2892" Comment="edited title" Text="Why are Kore and Persephone interchangeable in the myth regarding Hades wife?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18131" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5406" RevisionGUID="e37b7438-038d-4223-9fb0-aa8b3059dc74" CreationDate="2019-02-13T00:24:18.007" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 6 characters in body" Text="Hades main story involved the abduction of his niece, the Kore (aka Persephone), and subsequent forced marriage.  So, from a modern perspective, we could say he is a bad guy. But, it's important to remember that incest among the gods is not a crime--Zeus married his own sister!  Forced marriage was also the norm, certainly for nobles, until fairly recently.  Hades shared his throne with Persephone, and, through the [Eleusinian Mysteries][1], she becomes a goddess most esteemed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hades is often regarded as the &quot;anti-Zeus&quot; [see [Diis/Dis Pater\]&#xD;&#xA;][2]--Zeus' realm is the sky which is filled with light; Hades realm is eternal darkness.  So it would be easy to see Hades as &quot;evil&quot;, except that Zeus is not strictly &quot;good&quot;.  (The pagan &quot;Sky Father&quot; is as susceptible to human foibles as anyone, despite his cleverness--Hector has far more dignity than Zeus!)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As Hades transforms into the Roman variant, he is much more associated with the wealth of the subterranean regions--[Pluto][3] (&quot;wealth&quot;, from the Greek [πλοῦτος][4]). In the Orphic Tradition, [Eubuleus][5] (&quot;wise in counselor&quot;) is associated with both Hades and Zeus.  [Heraclitus][6] even suggested that Hades and Dionysus are the same god, representing the life/death dichotomy in the context of eternal renewal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Theoi has a nice compendium of Hades references][7]. My sense is that Hades mostly chilled and did his thing.  In terms of bad behavior, Zeus is sort of the poster boy for that, and Hades is, by comparison, pretty well behaved and low-key.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Hades is more complex than commonly understood.  He is not bad or evil in the Christian sense, but propitiated in that humans tend to fear death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleusinian_Mysteries&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C4%ABs_Pater&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluto_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dplou%3Dtos1&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eubuleus&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades#cite_note-56&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Haides.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18133" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5432" RevisionGUID="de9b20a3-cbec-43e8-94fc-ce105a592130" CreationDate="2019-02-13T01:11:13.407" UserId="2892" Comment="added 2410 characters in body" Text="This is a complex question, and entire books have been written on it.  The modern conception of Satan is a mixture of qualities arising from paganism (horns, etc.) but the conception of Satan as evil in the Christian sense almost certainly arises from [Zoroastrianism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism) in the form of [Ahriman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahriman). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To unpack this, consider [Hades Diis][1].  Lord of the underworld, yes.  Feared because humans fear death, yes.  But not evil in the Christian absolute sense.  (Zeus and Hades could be interchangeable, for instance in the parentage of [Melinoë][2]. One of Hades epithets in this tradition is [Eubuleus][3], the &quot;wise counselor&quot;.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where Lucifer is like Hades is in coming down from heaven to rule the netherworld, underground. Cronus cast into Tartarus is an earlier form.  (The Christian conception of Hell comes chiefly from two sources, the Greek Hades, which is used more than any other word for hell in the bible, and Dante's [Inferno][4].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Horns also seem to come out of the Greek tradition of with [Dionysus][5]/Bacchus, whose revels would certainly have been seen as evil in the Christian sense (although they still survive in celebrations like [Carvival][6];) Horns &amp; hooves are a feature of Pan, from whose name we derive the word panic--[like the Devil with is fiddle][7] Pan is a musician. &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;But Dionysus/Zagreus, as dying/resurrected god is a Christ analog, and Hades is certainly not the adversary of the Lord of Heaven, Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The formal concept of Satan as &quot;the Adversary&quot; ([שָּׂטָן][8]) is found in the old Testament, although here the entity is adversary to man, not to the omnipotent Hebrew God.  But the Hebraic conception is believed to derive from the earlier Zoroastrian, where Ahriman (*Aŋra Mainiiu* &quot;[absolute antithesis][9]&quot;) is the direct adversary of [Ahura Mazda][10], the sole and all-powerful creator god. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zoroastrianism may date back to the second millennium BCE, but we only have documents going back to the 5th century BCE. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An even earlier form would be the Levantine [Ba'al][11], who was horned, and started out as a fertility deity.  Here, via the Hebraic tradition, Baal becomes a generic reference to a false god, and eventually becomes Beelzebub ([Ba'al Zəbûb][12])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/5406/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melino%C3%AB#Birth&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eubuleus&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Comedy#Inferno&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus#Worship&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnival#Brazil&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6RUg-NkjY4&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D7%A9%D7%98%D7%9F&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahriman&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahura_Mazda&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beelzebub#Hebrew_Bible" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18134" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5432" RevisionGUID="320eb128-38fc-42ca-8d2a-2d9c62f6e458" CreationDate="2019-02-13T01:38:50.083" UserId="2892" Comment="added 319 characters in body" Text="This is a complex question, and entire books have been written on it.  The modern conception of Satan is a mixture of qualities arising from paganism (horns, etc.) but the conception of Satan as evil in the Christian sense almost certainly arises from [Zoroastrianism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism) in the form of [Ahriman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahriman). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To unpack this, consider [Hades Diis][1].  Lord of the underworld, yes.  Feared because humans fear death, yes.  But not evil in the Christian absolute sense.  (Zeus and Hades could be interchangeable, for instance in the parentage of [Melinoë][2]. One of Hades epithets in this tradition is [Eubuleus][3], the &quot;wise counselor&quot;.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where Lucifer is like Hades is in coming down from heaven to rule the netherworld, underground. Cronus cast into Tartarus is an earlier form.  (The modern conception of Hell comes chiefly from two sources, and Dante's [Inferno][4], and the Greek Hades, in that Dante was heavily influenced by Classical Mythology--his underworld even has a [City of Dis][5].  Hades is the most common term for [hell in the New Testament][6], which was originally written in Greek.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Horns come partly out of the Greek tradition of with [Dionysus][7]/Bacchus, whose revels would certainly have been seen as evil in the Christian sense (although they still survive in celebrations like [Carvival][8];) Horns &amp; hooves are a feature of Pan, from whose name we derive the word panic--[like the Devil with is fiddle][9] Pan is a musician. &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;But Dionysus/Zagreus, as dying/resurrected god is a Christ analog, and Hades is certainly not the adversary of the Lord of Heaven, Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The formal concept of Satan as &quot;the Adversary&quot; ([שָּׂטָן][10]) is found in the old Testament, although here the entity is adversary to man, not to the omnipotent Hebrew God.  But the Hebraic conception is believed to derive from the earlier Zoroastrian, where Ahriman (*Aŋra Mainiiu* &quot;[absolute antithesis][11]&quot;) is the direct adversary of [Ahura Mazda][12], the sole and all-powerful creator god. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zoroastrianism may date back to the second millennium BCE, but we only have documents going back to the 5th century BCE. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An even earlier form would be the Levantine [Ba'al][13], who was horned, but started out as a fertility deity as opposed to an embodiment of evil.  Here, via the Hebraic tradition, Baal becomes a generic reference to a false god, and eventually becomes Beelzebub ([Ba'al Zəbûb][14])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/5406/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melino%C3%AB#Birth&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eubuleus&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Comedy#Inferno&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dis_(Divine_Comedy)&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_Hades#New_Testament&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus#Worship&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnival#Brazil&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6RUg-NkjY4&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D7%A9%D7%98%D7%9F&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahriman&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahura_Mazda&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beelzebub#Hebrew_Bible" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18136" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5443" RevisionGUID="49b8fc57-7d8b-4343-9fba-9c28bc7e1d36" CreationDate="2019-02-13T06:20:44.603" UserId="108" Comment="added 9 characters in body; edited title" Text="Are there myths that feature such beings?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18137" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5443" RevisionGUID="49b8fc57-7d8b-4343-9fba-9c28bc7e1d36" CreationDate="2019-02-13T06:20:44.603" UserId="108" Comment="added 9 characters in body; edited title" Text="Are there any myths about sentient beings (except gods/immaterial beings) that walked the earth before humans?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18138" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5457" RevisionGUID="d3cecaad-e0f5-4543-b223-5ed53eb3f32c" CreationDate="2019-02-13T10:45:58.840" UserId="5726" Text="The Nephilim were not aliens, angels, “Watchers,” or rock monsters; they were literal, physical beings produced from the union of the sons of God and the daughters of men. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them,  the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose.  Then the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.”  The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.(Genesis 6:1–4).|&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Looking at how this is written it reminds me a lot of the demi-gods in especially the Greek mythology.&#xD;&#xA;My question is are the Nephilim the demi-gods of the bible?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18139" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5457" RevisionGUID="d3cecaad-e0f5-4543-b223-5ed53eb3f32c" CreationDate="2019-02-13T10:45:58.840" UserId="5726" Text="Are the Nephilim the demi-gods of the bible?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18140" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5457" RevisionGUID="d3cecaad-e0f5-4543-b223-5ed53eb3f32c" CreationDate="2019-02-13T10:45:58.840" UserId="5726" Text="|comparative|bible|demi-gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18141" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5457" RevisionGUID="e507a56a-f5ba-4dd2-a627-d19fe2b7e223" CreationDate="2019-02-13T10:56:40.513" UserId="5726" Comment="updated tags" Text="|comparative|christianity|bible|demi-gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18142" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5458" RevisionGUID="013b1dee-f4fe-4097-9898-33e6db8820fb" CreationDate="2019-02-13T11:30:38.037" UserId="5726" Text="Jiang Shi meaning &quot;Stiff Corpse&quot; is a kind of zombie from Chinese Mythology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They can be stopped by throwing **rice or coins** on the ground (they will not pursue their target until they have picked up all the grains of rice or coins, allowing the target to escape) or can be &quot;deactivated&quot; by placing a **sacred piece of paper** on their foreheads.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Ancient Greeks might have been the first civilization terrorized by a fear of the undead. Archaeologists have unearthed many ancient graves which contained skeletons **pinned down by rocks and other heavy objects** to prevent the dead bodies from reanimating.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In kamarina in south east Sicily they found a lot of evidence in a cemetery. The town had once been a Greek colony in Sicily, which is now part of modern day Italy and housed a cemetery known as Passo Marinaro that was used from the fifth to the third centuries BC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In two of the tombs, the skeletons found appear to have been buried in specific ways to keep them in the grave. &#xD;&#xA;Their bodies where completely covered by **large fragments of amphora.** " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18143" PostHistoryTypeId="16" PostId="5431" RevisionGUID="b191c470-0766-421c-a12b-4d1c4636826a" CreationDate="2019-02-13T14:03:16.517" UserId="5541" />
  <row Id="18144" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5431" RevisionGUID="b191c470-0766-421c-a12b-4d1c4636826a" CreationDate="2019-02-13T14:03:16.517" UserId="5541" Comment="Opened it in community wiki" Text="As @Codosaur Pointed out, Satan is a character that rises up against the supreme deity of the mythology. I would add that in the Christian rligion, he comes by many [names][1] I'll start a list here and we'll try to explain some of their signification:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Lord of the underworld / Lord of [Hell][2] / Lord of this World:&#xD;&#xA;Satan is supposed to rule over hell, so the afterlife of the &quot;bad guys&quot;, he was put in this role after rebelling against God, it doesn't mean he wants to do it as the [Lucifer TV-shows][3] (That I advise you to watch)&#xD;&#xA; - [Lucifer / The Morning Star][4]: {Latin}&#xD;&#xA;Often portrayed as a beautiful archangel and the bringer of light, the illuminator&#xD;&#xA; - [Mephistopheles][5]: {German}&#xD;&#xA;Which Etymology seems to come from: &quot;scatterer, disperser&quot;, &quot;plasterer of lies&quot;, &quot;light&quot;, &quot;philis&quot; meaning &quot;loving&quot; maybe meaning &quot;not-light-loving&quot;, it is seen as a parody of Lucifer but I'll mostly just remember it as Lucifer plus a touch of &quot;scatterer of light&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After theses explanations about some of the names that are attributed to Satan, I want to point out the part where he is supposed to:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Rebel against the supreme God&#xD;&#xA; - Scatters the light&#xD;&#xA; - Be the ruler of the afterlife (Mostly the punishing part)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Prometheus, before 800BCE ##&#xD;&#xA;The [titan god][6] of forethought and crafty counsel created the humans on Zeus order. He then tried to improve their life by all means. One of those means implied giving the fire to the humans, this can be seen as the bringer of light (1st point). Doing this angered Zeus, the supreme deity (2nd point).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The timeline here is [this one][7], which states the first records 8th century BCE, thanks @DukeZhou for the correction:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then I found out about the [Japanese creation myth][8], where we can find two primordial gods:&#xD;&#xA;## Izanagi and Izanami, ~700BCE##&#xD;&#xA;Which share the characteristics of Satan that I described earlier mixed with those of a supreme God. They are the creator of everything (Japan), keep in mind the fire creating (1st point):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Izanagi and Izanami then created gods and goddesses of the trees, mountains, valleys, streams, winds, and other natural features of Japan. While giving birth to the fire god Kagutsuchi, Izanami was badly burned. As she lay dying, she produced more gods and goddesses. Other deities emerged from the tears of her grief-stricken husband.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Izanagi angered Izanami a bit after her death (2nd point) and after this episode Izanami became the ruler of the Underworld (3rd point):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When Izanami died, she went to Yomi-tsu Kuni, the land of darkness and death. Izanagi followed her there and tried to bring her back. But Izanami's body had already begun to decay, and she hid in the shadows and told Izanagi that she could not leave. Izanagi could not resist looking at his beloved wife one last time. When he lit a torch and saw her rotting corpse, he fled in terror. Angry that Izanagi had seen her, Izanami sent hideous spirits to chase him. Izanagi managed to escape, and he sealed off the passage to Yomi-tsu Kuni with a huge boulder. Izanami remained there and ruled over the dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the [Wikipedia page][9] about this story, we can read that they are both infuriated against each other, so we can give all the credit of being the &quot;Satan&quot; of this religion to Izanami:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Izanagi burst through the entrance and quickly pushed a boulder to the entrance of Yomi. Izanami screamed from behind this barricade and told Izanagi that, if he left her, she would destroy 1,000 living people every day. He furiously replied that he would give life to 1,500.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the period where those myth were created, I didn't find something more precise about the oral sharing([1][10], [2][11]):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The myths of Japanese popular religion derive from oral traditions codified for posterity in two books: the Nihon Shoki, published in 720 CE and the Kojiki written by an official of the Empress Gemmyo between 708 and 714 CE. An additional source, the Kogoshui was written in c. 807 CE by Imibe-no-Hironari who collected together oral traditions omitted from the Nihon Shoki and Kojiki.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Community Wiki ##&#xD;&#xA;If someone wants to add a contribution to this, try to keep the original format. I'm also open to its format improvement, based on suggestions.&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil#Demons&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer_(TV_series)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mephistopheles&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanPrometheus.html&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus#Oldest_legends&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Iz-Le/Japanese-Mythology.html&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_mythology#Izanagi_in_the_underworld&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://www.ancient.eu/Izanami_and_Izanagi/&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://owlcation.com/social-sciences/IzanagiandIzunami" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18145" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5458" RevisionGUID="b74e7f69-e339-4aea-8d5b-419916a0cb57" CreationDate="2019-02-13T17:11:02.600" UserId="5726" Comment="improved explanation Jiangshi" Text="Jiang Shi meaning &quot;Stiff Corpse&quot; is a kind of zombie from Chinese Mythology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They can be stopped by throwing **rice or coins** on the ground (they will not pursue their target until they have picked up all the grains of rice or coins, allowing the target to escape) or can be &quot;deactivated&quot; by placing a **sacred piece of paper** on their foreheads. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is the conventional wisdom of feng shui in Chinese architecture that at the threshold  **a piece of wood approximately 15 cm high, be installed along the width of the door at the bottom** to prevent a Jiangshi from entering the household.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Ancient Greeks might have been the first civilization terrorized by a fear of the undead. Archaeologists have unearthed many ancient graves which contained skeletons **pinned down by rocks and other heavy objects** to prevent the dead bodies from reanimating.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In kamarina in south east Sicily they found a lot of evidence in a cemetery. The town had once been a Greek colony in Sicily, which is now part of modern day Italy and housed a cemetery known as Passo Marinaro that was used from the fifth to the third centuries BC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In two of the tombs, the skeletons found appear to have been buried in specific ways to keep them in the grave. &#xD;&#xA;Their bodies where completely covered by **large fragments of amphora.** " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18146" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5459" RevisionGUID="0998b234-8e72-40f1-9cc6-d3e8e410997c" CreationDate="2019-02-13T18:29:21.437" UserId="5726" Text="The earliest one I could find was Eugène Vintras. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Vintras, following further attacks from the Church, adopted the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; inverted cross as the symbol of the new dispensation of which he was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the prophet, inverted because the Reign of the Suffering Christ had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; been superseded by the Reign of the Holy Spirit of Love.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[source][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.nl/books?id=qy1Wp2T3KqgC&amp;pg=PA164&amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;Vintras was a French Gnostic revivalist from the around the middle of the 19th century **(1807–1875)**.&#xD;&#xA;He preached the end of the world, and claimed he had received messages from the Archangel Michael and that he himself was a reincarnation of Elijah. Vintras was condemned by the Vatican, and after his condemnation he started using an upside down cross.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18147" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5459" RevisionGUID="6ac1bdd5-f57f-422f-a0c5-ba9c5f432d33" CreationDate="2019-02-13T18:36:49.583" UserId="5726" Comment="added 335 characters in body" Text="The earliest one I could find was Eugène Vintras. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Vintras, following further attacks from the Church, adopted the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; inverted cross as the symbol of the new dispensation of which he was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the prophet, inverted because the Reign of the Suffering Christ had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; been superseded by the Reign of the Holy Spirit of Love.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[source][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Vintras was a French Gnostic revivalist from the around the middle of the 19th century **(1807–1875)**.&#xD;&#xA;He preached the end of the world, and claimed he had received messages from the Archangel Michael and that he himself was a reincarnation of Elijah. Vintras was condemned by the Vatican, and after his condemnation he started using an upside down cross. The mention of this being satanic comes from [Éliphas Lévi] [2] (an occultist himself) stating that Vintras' inverted cross was &quot;indicative of satanic influences&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[source][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.nl/books?id=qy1Wp2T3KqgC&amp;pg=PA164&amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89liphas_L%C3%A9vi&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://books.google.nl/books?id=JhiDBAAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA161&amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18148" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5460" RevisionGUID="1285bcee-6a82-43b3-a246-47038f342dd7" CreationDate="2019-02-13T19:41:53.540" UserId="5726" Text="Judging from the context Ohrmazd knows his creatures can be corrupted and that in this way he tricks the evil spirit into accepting a proposed time for their final fight (making sure they are not fighting constantly). Ohrmazd, using his omniscience knew the end result would result in the evil spirit being disabled. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And the evil spirit shouted thus: 'I will not depart, I will not provide assistance for thy creatures, I will not offer praise among thy creatures, and I am not of the same opinion with thee as to good things. I will destroy thy creatures for ever and everlasting; moreover, I will force all thy creatures into disaffection to thee and affection for myself.'  And the explanation thereof is this, that the evil spirit reflected in this manner, that Ohrmazd was helpless as regarded him, therefore He proffers peace; and he did not agree, but bore on even into conflict with Him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;And Ohrmazd spoke thus: 'You are not omniscient and almighty, O evil spirit! so that it is not possible for thee to destroy me, and it is not possible for thee to force my creatures so that they will not return to my possession.'&#xD;&#xA;Then the evil spirit, **unobservant and through ignorance**, was content&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with that agreement; just like two men quarreling together, who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; propose a time thus: Let us appoint such-and-such a day for a fight.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ohrmazd also knew this, through omniscience, that within these nine&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thousand years, for three thousand years everything proceeds by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; will of Ohrmazd, three thousand years there is an intermingling of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wills of Ohrmazd and Ahriman, and the last three thousand years the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; evil spirit is disabled, and they keep the adversary away from the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; creatures." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18149" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5461" RevisionGUID="b7e82b86-9e55-475c-8b6c-0e153afd528c" CreationDate="2019-02-13T20:14:27.470" UserId="5726" Text="Reading up on some myths I started to notice that a lot of raping has been going on in Greek mythology.&#xD;&#xA;Why is this featured so prominently and what is the (if any) hidden meaning behind the rapes? Or is it just written that way?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Antiope; raped by Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Callisto; raped by Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cassandra; raped by Ajax the Lesser, and later forced into concubinage by Agamemnon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Chrysippus; raped by his tutor Laius.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Demeter; according to an Arcadian myth, Demeter was being pursued by Poseidon and she changed into a horse to escape him. Poseidon, however, transformed himself into a horse and, after cornering Demeter, raped her, resulting in her giving birth to Despoina, a maiden goddess, and Arion, a divine horse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Europa; raped by Zeus after he abducted her in the form of a bull.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ganymede, son of Tros of Dardania; taken up to Mount Olympus by Zeus in the form of an eagle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Leda, raped by Zeus in the form of a swan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The daughters of Leucippus, Phoebe and Hilaeira, were abducted, raped and later married by Castor and Pollux. In return, Idas and Lynceus, nephews of Leucippus and rival suitors, killed Castor. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Medusa; raped by Poseidon in Athena's temple&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odysseus; raped by Calypso on the island of Ogygia in his seven year stay&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Persephone; raped by Hades and, in some versions, raped by her father, Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Philomela; raped by her brother-in-law Tereus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18150" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5461" RevisionGUID="b7e82b86-9e55-475c-8b6c-0e153afd528c" CreationDate="2019-02-13T20:14:27.470" UserId="5726" Text="Why is rape featured so prominently in Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18151" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5461" RevisionGUID="b7e82b86-9e55-475c-8b6c-0e153afd528c" CreationDate="2019-02-13T20:14:27.470" UserId="5726" Text="|greek|zeus|interpretation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18153" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5461" RevisionGUID="b78fbdf3-9a83-425d-bac2-40b73fe55c6e" CreationDate="2019-02-14T08:56:15.507" UserId="5726" Comment="added source" Text="Reading up on some myths I started to notice that a lot of raping has been going on in Greek mythology.&#xD;&#xA;Why is this featured so prominently and what is the (if any) hidden meaning behind the rapes? Or is it just written that way?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is the list of rape victims as defined by Wikipedia&#xD;&#xA;[link to Wikipedia article][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Antiope; raped by Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Callisto; raped by Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cassandra; raped by Ajax the Lesser, and later forced into concubinage by Agamemnon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Chrysippus; raped by his tutor Laius.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Demeter; according to an Arcadian myth, Demeter was being pursued by Poseidon and she changed into a horse to escape him. Poseidon, however, transformed himself into a horse and, after cornering Demeter, raped her, resulting in her giving birth to Despoina, a maiden goddess, and Arion, a divine horse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Europa; raped by Zeus after he abducted her in the form of a bull.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ganymede, son of Tros of Dardania; taken up to Mount Olympus by Zeus in the form of an eagle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Leda, raped by Zeus in the form of a swan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The daughters of Leucippus, Phoebe and Hilaeira, were abducted, raped and later married by Castor and Pollux. In return, Idas and Lynceus, nephews of Leucippus and rival suitors, killed Castor. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Medusa; raped by Poseidon in Athena's temple&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odysseus; raped by Calypso on the island of Ogygia in his seven year stay&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Persephone; raped by Hades and, in some versions, raped by her father, Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Philomela; raped by her brother-in-law Tereus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rape_victims_from_ancient_history_and_mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18154" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5461" RevisionGUID="29a837ec-8ef2-48e0-8342-48bfa13d4b86" CreationDate="2019-02-14T09:09:17.410" UserId="5726" Comment="improved question" Text="Reading up on some myths I started to notice that a lot of raping has been going on in Greek mythology.&#xD;&#xA;Why is this featured so prominently and what is the (if any) hidden meaning behind the rapes? Or is it just written that way?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am familiar with the fact that this happened in pretty much every mythology, but Greek mythology seems to use it a lot. And i was wondering if there was a special reason for this behaviour apart from being the go-to deed for the writers of antiquity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is the list of rape victims as defined by Wikipedia&#xD;&#xA;[link to Wikipedia article][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Antiope; raped by Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Callisto; raped by Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cassandra; raped by Ajax the Lesser, and later forced into concubinage by Agamemnon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Chrysippus; raped by his tutor Laius.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Demeter; according to an Arcadian myth, Demeter was being pursued by Poseidon and she changed into a horse to escape him. Poseidon, however, transformed himself into a horse and, after cornering Demeter, raped her, resulting in her giving birth to Despoina, a maiden goddess, and Arion, a divine horse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Europa; raped by Zeus after he abducted her in the form of a bull.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ganymede, son of Tros of Dardania; taken up to Mount Olympus by Zeus in the form of an eagle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Leda, raped by Zeus in the form of a swan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The daughters of Leucippus, Phoebe and Hilaeira, were abducted, raped and later married by Castor and Pollux. In return, Idas and Lynceus, nephews of Leucippus and rival suitors, killed Castor. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Medusa; raped by Poseidon in Athena's temple&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odysseus; raped by Calypso on the island of Ogygia in his seven year stay&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Persephone; raped by Hades and, in some versions, raped by her father, Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Philomela; raped by her brother-in-law Tereus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rape_victims_from_ancient_history_and_mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18155" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5462" RevisionGUID="741ee79a-c64a-4704-8432-9a67edd978c2" CreationDate="2019-02-14T15:58:28.280" UserId="5816" Text="The majority of Ancient Greek people (be it mythological or real) or places got their English names from their Latinized Greek names, except for a select few that got their names from French instead. Off the top of my head I can think of Helen, Mercury, Neptune, Troy, and the Apostles such as Peter or Andrew.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How many other are there? I assume there should not be a lot of them, given their peculiar source of borrowing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that by &quot;Ancient Greek names&quot; I'm including cases such as Cyprus, Troy, Macedonia or Europe, and biblical figures whose name may or may not come from Hebrew, such as John or Matthew." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18156" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5462" RevisionGUID="741ee79a-c64a-4704-8432-9a67edd978c2" CreationDate="2019-02-14T15:58:28.280" UserId="5816" Text="How many Ancient Greek names got their English names from French?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18157" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5462" RevisionGUID="741ee79a-c64a-4704-8432-9a67edd978c2" CreationDate="2019-02-14T15:58:28.280" UserId="5816" Text="|greek|names|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18158" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5462" RevisionGUID="a405b364-36b0-4748-a938-b1c8c1792c51" CreationDate="2019-02-14T16:04:06.440" UserId="5816" Comment="added 7 characters in body" Text="The majority of Ancient Greek people (be it mythological or real) or places got their English names from their Latinized Greek names (Zeus, Heracles, Poseidon, etc.), except for a select few that got their names from French instead. Off the top of my head I can think of Helen, Mercury, Neptune, Troy, and some of the Apostles such as Matthew, John or Andrew.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How many other are there? I assume there should not be a lot of them, given their peculiar source of borrowing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that by &quot;Ancient Greek names&quot; I'm including cases such as Cyprus, Troy, Macedonia or Europe, and biblical figures whose name may or may not come from Hebrew, such as Peter or Simon." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18159" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5459" RevisionGUID="e2bc8837-b707-4481-8ddd-c8fb0b01daef" CreationDate="2019-02-14T16:07:48.320" UserId="5726" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="The earliest one I could find was Eugène Vintras. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Vintras, following further attacks from the Church, adopted the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; inverted cross as the symbol of the new dispensation of which he was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the prophet, inverted because the Reign of the Suffering Christ had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; been superseded by the Reign of the Holy Spirit of Love.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[source][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Vintras was a French Gnostic revivalist from the around the middle of the 19th century **(1807–1875)**.&#xD;&#xA;He preached the end of the world, and claimed he had received messages from the Archangel Michael and that he himself was a reincarnation of Elijah. Vintras was condemned by the Vatican, and after his condemnation he started using an upside down cross. The mention of this being satanic comes from [Éliphas Lévi] [2] (an occultist himself) stating that Vintras' inverted cross was &quot;**indicative of satanic influences**&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[source][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.nl/books?id=qy1Wp2T3KqgC&amp;pg=PA164&amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89liphas_L%C3%A9vi&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://books.google.nl/books?id=JhiDBAAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA161&amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18160" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5462" RevisionGUID="313e8a64-aee4-4f9e-900e-7b0408bdd47d" CreationDate="2019-02-14T16:11:32.537" UserId="5816" Comment="added 31 characters in body; edited title" Text="The majority of Ancient Greek people (be it mythological or real) or places got their English names from their Latinized Greek names (Zeus, Heracles, Poseidon, etc.), except for a select few that got their names from French or nativised in English instead. Off the top of my head I can think of Helen, Mercury, Neptune, Troy, Homer, and some of the Apostles such as Matthew, John or Andrew.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How many other are there? I assume there should not be a lot of them, given their comparatively peculiar way they look and sound in modern English.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that by &quot;Ancient Greek names&quot; I'm including cases such as Cyprus, Troy, Macedonia or Europe, and biblical figures whose name may or may not come from Hebrew, such as Peter or Simon." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18161" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5462" RevisionGUID="313e8a64-aee4-4f9e-900e-7b0408bdd47d" CreationDate="2019-02-14T16:11:32.537" UserId="5816" Comment="added 31 characters in body; edited title" Text="How many Ancient Greek names got their English names from French or nativised in English?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18162" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5457" RevisionGUID="703eca0b-8c86-445b-8e0a-16cd981ba776" CreationDate="2019-02-14T16:17:08.907" UserId="5726" Comment="added 70 characters in body" Text="The Nephilim were not aliens, angels, “Watchers,” or rock monsters; they were literal, physical beings produced from the union of the sons of God and the daughters of men. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them,  the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose.  Then the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.”  The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.[Genesis 6:1–4][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Looking at how this is written it reminds me a lot of the demi-gods in especially the Greek mythology.&#xD;&#xA;My question is are the Nephilim the demi-gods of the bible?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%206:1-8" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18163" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5462" RevisionGUID="aa8eddf7-0f53-4996-9c84-8d475f653cb1" CreationDate="2019-02-14T16:20:53.263" UserId="5816" Comment="added 7 characters in body" Text="The majority of Ancient Greek people (be it mythological or real) or places got their English names from their Latinized Greek names (Zeus, Heracles, Poseidon, etc.), except for a select few that got their names from French or nativised in English instead. Off the top of my head I can think of Helen, Mercury, Neptune, Troy, Homer, Hesiod and some of the Apostles such as Matthew, John or Andrew.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How many other are there? I assume there should not be a lot of them, given the comparatively peculiar way they look and sound in modern English.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that by &quot;Ancient Greek names&quot; I'm including cases such as Cyprus, Troy, Macedonia or Europe, and biblical figures whose name may or may not come from Hebrew, such as Peter or Simon." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18165" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5463" RevisionGUID="8ad8398f-a8b6-4441-86ad-61c56f3cf294" CreationDate="2019-02-14T17:22:17.330" UserId="5793" Text="It depends what you mean by &quot;demi-god&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They are of somewhat divine origin, by most understandings of &quot;sons of God&quot; (ancient Hebrew sources identify them with angels of some description). They were men of great renown. That much is in common with the Greek tradition of heroes of divine heritage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the Greek heroes (not all of whom were demi-gods in the sense of divine parentage) are the focus of many key stories of myth and actually a focus of religious practice in their cultures - the hero cults. The same cannot be said of the Nephilim in Christianity or Judaism." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18166" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5464" RevisionGUID="b4693547-ddfd-461d-8ce1-a8fc6e85bc41" CreationDate="2019-02-14T18:00:33.327" UserId="5511" Text="There are [dozens of Greek first names still in use today.](https://www.familyeducation.com/baby-names/browse-origin/first-name/greek). Many of them don't sound so strange to us because we're familiar with them. It's usually only the names that are not commonly given to people nowadays or the ones that stem from Greek literature or mythology that make us wonder. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the root of the difference in nomenclature in modern Anglo-Saxon languages is how these names (and the texts they appear in) came to us. The Roman pantheon is almost an exact copy of the Greek pantheon (Zeus = Jupiter, etc.). So for most of the mythology we will indeed have Greek names that were Romanized, but we went back to the Greek names during [Hellenism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenism_(neoclassicism)). By that time, the planets and the Galilean moons of Jupiter (like Io) had already been seen by telescope, and that's why they have Roman mythological names. Moons discovered after Hellenism usually have Greek names (for Jupiter, for example, Elara and Pasiphae).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Literary studies of many Greek works were deemed heretical by the Roman Catholic church, so there had not been any adaptation of the texts and characters into medieval vernacular. Homer's works, for example, became [available in English only in 1581](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_translations_of_Homer).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the Biblical name references you mentioned, Peter as a name only makes sense if you take the original text or speaker to be Greek:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&quot;Petros&quot; in Greek is a first name as well as the word for &quot;rock&quot;. This wordplay only makes sense in Greek, as well as does the phrase &quot;the gates of Hades&quot;, which was altered in the New English and other translations.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Gwhfx.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18167" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5465" RevisionGUID="6d12fd4c-2670-4889-b70c-00995b8fe517" CreationDate="2019-02-14T18:49:54.367" UserId="5604" Text="Great question Andrew.  The swastika is one of the oldest symbols in Rock Art and its many derivative forms date back tens of thousand of years.  At one time virtually all cultures used it to signify either the four cardinal points North South East and West or the four seasons or both. As people migrate they take their signs and symbols with them so it is today found globally. Hitler adopted it because he associated it with Aryan peoples but it originated long before it appeared in Northern Europe.  Hope that helped. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18168" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5462" RevisionGUID="8582f3a4-9802-47d9-a75f-f7efb2e38a8b" CreationDate="2019-02-15T02:51:30.370" UserId="5816" Comment="deleted 26 characters in body" Text="The majority of Ancient Greek people (be it mythological or real) or places got their English names from their Latinized Greek names (Uranus, Achilles, etc.), except for a select few that got their names from French or nativised in English instead. Off the top of my head I can think of Helen, Troy, Homer, Hesiod and some of the Apostles such as Matthew, John or Andrew.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How many other are there? I assume there should not be a lot of them, given the comparatively peculiar way they look and sound in modern English.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that by &quot;Ancient Greek names&quot; I'm including cases such as Cyprus, Troy, Macedonia or Europe, and biblical figures whose name may or may not come from Hebrew, such as Peter or Simon." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18171" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5466" RevisionGUID="22dd3361-b817-4179-87ca-8a28040a9482" CreationDate="2019-02-16T23:36:16.627" UserId="5793" Text="As Andrew Johnson has noted, Dis is a shortening of *Dis Pater*, the principle god of the dead and the underworld for the Romans. Unlike Pluto, *Dis Pater* was a native god, more or less original to the Italian peninsula (in as much as any mythological figure is native anywhere), and specifically the Italic peoples (also known as the Latins). Orcus was, some suggest, an import from a nearer neighbour, the Etruscans. Pluto was most likely an importation from the Greek *Plouton*, an appellation of Hades referring to his association with the &quot;wealth of the Earth&quot; (minerals).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I understand that the Romans mostly associated the figure of Pluto with this wealth-related aspect, though they held him as a chthonic (underworld) god. Dis was the more benevolent underworld god (hence, I believe, his being identified as a father figure). Orcus was the vengeful side of the lord of the dead, punishing especially those who broke oaths. These are all gods of *the dead*, rather than death; the personification of death was *Mors*, the equivalent of the Greek Thanatos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, the underworld itself, the realm of the dead, was often referred to - by both Greek and Roman tradition - by the name(s) of its ruler(s). Orcus's name may have actually started that way, as it could be linked to Greek roots referring to enclosure, containment or restraint. However, Romans would happily use quite a range of names, including Orcus, to refer to the realm of the dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is worth noting that Roman mythology is not a coherent whole. Not only did they apply *Interpretatio Romana* to foreign gods and myths, especially of people they considered beneath them, but they also imported mythic elements and figures of other cultures (primarily but not only the Greeks, to whom they applied a mixture of importation and interpretation) wholesale and worked them into their own syncretic hodge-podge. It is often unclear whether they considered Pluto and Dis different aspects of one god, or two gods with overlapping provinces, and it's often unclear to what extent such a question would even matter to them." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18172" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5467" RevisionGUID="78cf9a84-2253-40f6-89da-bf3becab74fc" CreationDate="2019-02-16T23:50:25.493" UserId="5793" Text="&gt; &quot;Is there some sort of consensus as to what fairies actually do with them?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;No. Because there is no consistent Hiberno-British folk mythology. Any apparent or alleged consistent anything about that was made up (or, let's be generous, synthesised) later.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can look at any attempt to record folk traditions from various places and periods, and they will be different. Some suggest both good and evil purposes in the kidnappings. Sometimes they are raised and live among the fairies in joy, in some they are used as servants (treated cruelly or kindly), and some they are used for torturous entertainment (though possibly only once they've grown up a bit).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The nature of changelings varies in different sources as well. In some they are fairies pretending to be human children - in at least one reference I read, that's the whole purpose of the deception, rather than the taking of the child - they want human milk. In those, the fairy will sneak off at some later date. In others they are fairies who *don't know* they are fairies pretending to be human children, and they awake to their otherly nature later. In yet others, they are short-lived magical constructs and sicken and die.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The versions recorded by folklorists from prior centuries are of no inherently greater value than those 'created' by fiction writers in the second half of the twentieth century, or in the early years of the twenty-first. We have so little to go on in terms of reliable sources that it's all anyone's guess." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18173" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5452" RevisionGUID="4eac992b-023f-4e43-9515-47b35ea13d87" CreationDate="2019-02-17T13:10:59.897" UserId="5726" Comment="added 193 characters in body" Text="I know one for certain, the pre-adamite jinn in Islamic mythology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;a Jinn is an invisible entity, created by God out of a &quot;mixture of fire&quot; or &quot;smokeless fire&quot;, who roamed the earth **before** Adam.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; The community of the Jinn race were like those of humans, but then corruption and injustice among them increased and all warnings sent by God were ignored. Consequently, God sent his angels to battle the infidel Jinn. Just a few survived, and were ousted to far islands or to the mountains. With the revelation of Islam, the Jinn were given a new chance to access salvation. But because of their **prior creation**, the jinn would attribute themselves to a superiority over humans and envy them for their place and rank on earth&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[source: The Qur'an and Its Biblical Subtext p.41][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.nl/books?id=dKaLAgAAQBAJ&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;hl=nl&amp;source=gbs_ge_summary_r&amp;cad=0#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18174" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5468" RevisionGUID="0ca40c24-fa1d-40b1-82a6-b5af10fdcb0b" CreationDate="2019-02-17T18:22:15.627" UserId="5619" Text="After sitting down with my grandmother and searching online, we at least found bloody bones:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://deepsouthmag.com/2014/10/17/bloody-bones-a-history-of-southern-scares/amp/&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm not sure this stacks procedure for summarizing long articles, but basically bloody bones data back to 1500s England and is an amalgam of two other creatures. One is a skull stripped of skin and liable to bite called “Raw head” and the other its equally terrifying companion, a kind of dancing headless skeleton called “Bloody Bones.”" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18179" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5470" RevisionGUID="b3fa0092-2d37-45ab-b5f3-42e74d3279ea" CreationDate="2019-02-17T22:00:47.853" UserId="5793" Text="Dudo appears to have been a fairly confused chap. He also seemed to confuse &quot;Danish&quot; and &quot;Dacian&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, as has been noted in the comments, it a reasonably common theme in national mythologies to suppose some honourable (and no longer extant) origin for a people. Troy has been popular, with the most well known example being the Romans through the Aeneid, and of course Snorri's claim regarding the Aesir.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By some interpretations, the *Danaoi* are *not*, however, equivalent to the *Hellenes*. The *Hellenes* were the people of classical Greece as we generally understand it, while the *Danaoi* were the previous occupants of the region who were culturally supplanted by the incoming *Hellenes*. There is even some evidence to suggest that they were the people of the Mycenaean hegemony that predated that of the Greeks. One might then construct an idea, based on that folk etymological leap of Dudo, that some of the Mycenaean peoples made their long way to northern Europe, possibly in association with the decline in prominence of their own culture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is, to my knowledge, no evidence of this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of course, a little after Dudo's time there *was* a cultural link between Scandinavia and the Greeks of that time. Norse longboats were apt for river navigation, and their crews undertook expeditions deep into central and eastern Europe by that route - and by portage made the crossing to navigable rivers by which they could continue downstream to Greece and even the Black Sea. This may have been important in the development of the Byzantine *Varangian Guard*, a force dedicated to the Emperor that was first made up of troops lent by the Kievan Rus but later largely composed of Scandinavians. They would go to seek their fortune, and many would come home. Thus there were trade links via longboat, and cultural links via this traffic in young men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ultimately, you will never get an authoritative answer, at least until we develop some method of looking clearly back in time, of what Dudo really thought - much less of what might actually have happened. This was perhaps not by nature of a foundational myth for the Danish people themselves, as Dudo was simply commissioned to make a history; he may be reporting oral traditions, or may be making up large amounts from whole cloth. I can't answer what explanation Dudo might make, because I don't have a copy of his work (and the properly translated and annotated copies cost a pretty penny), so this is not, if we are to be strict, an answer to your question. However, I thought there was enough relevant information and exposition that I might offer that it was worth taking the space here to offer it as an answer." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18181" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1291" RevisionGUID="0f830d2e-fa97-4f0f-a5e1-2dbab019439d" CreationDate="2019-02-18T02:30:55.200" UserId="3315" Comment="broken image fixed (click 'rendered output' to see the difference); for more info, see https://gist.github.com/Glorfindel83/9d954d34385d2ac2597bbe864466259f" Text="Early representations of giants actually looked normal and human. Consider this representation of Alcyoneus, the king of the giants:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![The winged god Hypnos (Sleep personified) crouches in slumber on the chest of the giant Alkyoneus. The giant reclines in sleep, holding his club, and surrounded by his cattle. Herakles (not shown) sneaks up upon him.][1]][1]  &#xA;&lt;sub&gt;(source: [theoi.com](http://www.theoi.com/image/L1.2Alkyoneus.jpg))&lt;/sub&gt;  (http://www.theoi.com/Gallery/L1.2.html)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was in fact only in the Hellenistic era did giants acquire feet of snakes.[1](Pausanias' Description of Greece, translated with a commentary by J. G. Frazer, vol. 6 1898.) Why exactly they were chosen to be represented this way is unknown, but it makes sense, considering that the giants are the offspring of Gaia (the earth), and serpents in Mediterranean religion (and elsewhere) are—for very obvious reasons—intimately connected with land and with Gaia herself. It was probably just to symbolically show their origins.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/NfnE3.jpg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: Pausanias' *Description of Greece*, translated with a commentary by J. G. Frazer, vol. 6 1898." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18182" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1291" RevisionGUID="0f830d2e-fa97-4f0f-a5e1-2dbab019439d" CreationDate="2019-02-18T02:30:55.200" Comment="Proposed by 3315 approved by 108 edit id of 1708" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18184" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="11" RevisionGUID="fbadcce8-9c77-4d53-b64d-a9b59369bd8e" CreationDate="2019-02-18T02:31:23.417" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="18187" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5471" RevisionGUID="e7b226b6-f9ab-4ac8-ae8a-ca9b536edf6a" CreationDate="2019-02-18T23:54:52.713" UserId="5822" Text="When taking all known narratives together. The Igig were/are a class of the Anunnaki. I look at it like the divide between royalty and commoners of Europe .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Inferences being the Igigi/Annunaki came to earth/mars together. Note in Sitchin's translation. It states the Anunnaki outlawed slavery at some point in their distant past. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thinking the Igigi were the descendants of the slave class in their distant past. No reason to think their developing/evolving would not take on some physical differences amongst themselves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Seems to reason that over time they ended up with a relationship similar to what Britain has had the last 200 years. Using the military as a way to explain. &#xD;&#xA;Everyone in Britain can enlist. But to be an officer. The commoner moves up the ranks either by your service time, education or some sort of combination. As a royal, You are automatically an admiral.    Just some thoughts.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18188" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5461" RevisionGUID="b363bb77-ef39-435f-a4bc-ff6755c124be" CreationDate="2019-02-19T09:15:47.020" UserId="5726" Comment="updated rape victims" Text="Reading up on some myths I started to notice that a lot of raping has been going on in Greek mythology.&#xD;&#xA;Why is this featured so prominently and what is the (if any) hidden meaning behind the rapes? Or is it just written that way?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am familiar with the fact that this happened in pretty much every mythology, but Greek mythology seems to use it a lot. And i was wondering if there was a special reason for this behaviour apart from being the go-to deed for the writers of antiquity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is the list of rape victims as defined by Wikipedia&#xD;&#xA;[link to Wikipedia article][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and another one here : [link to wikipedia][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aethra (mother of Theseus); was raped by Poseidon&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Antiope; raped by Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apemosyne; raped by Hermes&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Callisto; raped by Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cassandra; raped by Ajax the Lesser, and later forced into concubinage by Agamemnon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Chrysippus; raped by his tutor Laius.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Demeter; according to an Arcadian myth, Demeter was being pursued by Poseidon and she changed into a horse to escape him. Poseidon, however, transformed himself into a horse and, after cornering Demeter, raped her, resulting in her giving birth to Despoina, a maiden goddess, and Arion, a divine horse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Europa; raped by Zeus after he abducted her in the form of a bull.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ganymede, son of Tros of Dardania; taken up to Mount Olympus by Zeus in the form of an eagle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Leda, raped by Zeus in the form of a swan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The daughters of Leucippus, Phoebe and Hilaeira, were abducted, raped and later married by Castor and Pollux. In return, Idas and Lynceus, nephews of Leucippus and rival suitors, killed Castor. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Medusa; raped by Poseidon in Athena's temple&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odysseus; raped by Calypso on the island of Ogygia in his seven year stay&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Persephone; raped by Hades and, in some versions, raped by her father, Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Philomela; raped by her brother-in-law Tereus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rape_victims_from_ancient_history_and_mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mythological_rape_victims" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18191" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="311" RevisionGUID="002d5cf4-7b38-46ab-94ac-83e7bb1d85ed" CreationDate="2019-02-19T14:46:09.910" UserId="183" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:183,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;HDE 226868&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="18192" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5472" RevisionGUID="f51a5929-80fd-40ac-af18-bd546b85e3d1" CreationDate="2019-02-19T21:25:57.813" UserId="5827" Text="Especially concerned with things such as fate, death, tie, love, is there a metaphysical place that deals specifically with things that humans do not comprehend?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18193" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5472" RevisionGUID="f51a5929-80fd-40ac-af18-bd546b85e3d1" CreationDate="2019-02-19T21:25:57.813" UserId="5827" Text="Is there a concept of a ‘realm of secrets’ in any mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18194" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5472" RevisionGUID="f51a5929-80fd-40ac-af18-bd546b85e3d1" CreationDate="2019-02-19T21:25:57.813" UserId="5827" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18196" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5388" RevisionGUID="ee40b9c1-fcc2-473a-b075-16a646c7f314" CreationDate="2019-02-20T08:45:25.617" UserId="5541" Comment="Added Apemosyme on a suggestion from @Tom and corrected the link to Pheidippides Wikidia page" Text="The first that comes in mind is &#xD;&#xA;## Hermes##&#xD;&#xA;As the emissary and messenger of the gods, he sure has this position because of his unprecedented speed, as his [theoi page][1] lists, his attributes contained winged boots that are of course associated with speed. One of his sacred animals is the hare, well known for its speed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Actually, even some mere mortal could outrun him, could discover this story thanks to @Tom:&#xD;&#xA;#Apemosyme#&#xD;&#xA;Hermes developed a passion about her but could not get to her as she was swifter than the messenger god. He even had to trick her into a trap to rape her. The poor soul ended being killed by her very own brother that could not believe the way she became pregnant (source [Theoi.com][2]):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 3. 14 (trans. Aldrich) (Greek mythographer C2nd A.D.) :&#xD;&#xA;&quot;[Althaimenes grandson of Minos] left Krete with his sister Apemosyne and went to a certain place on Rhodes . . . Not long after that he became the murderer of his sister. For Hermes developed a passion for Apemosyne; proving unable to catch her as she ran from him (she was swifter of foot than Hermes!), he strewed some newly stripped hides along the road, on which she slipped as she was returning from the spring. He then raped her. When she disclosed to her brother what had happened, Althaimenes took her story about the god to be an excuse, and killed her with a kick of his foot.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While talking about messenger of Gods, we can talk about the ones that had this job during the Titanomachy:&#xD;&#xA;## Iris and Arke##&#xD;&#xA;[Iris][3] was the messenger of the Olympian gods during this period.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And her twin, [Arke][4] chose to support the other side, the titans, in this conflict.&#xD;&#xA;Thanks @Spencer for bringing theses two deities up!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another good competitor would be &#xD;&#xA;## Helios ##&#xD;&#xA;The sun titan-god that dedicates each day driving his chariot across the sky. But its speed depends on his horses then.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another Mythologic one but not a god&#xD;&#xA;## Ajax ##&#xD;&#xA;Who is said to fight a whole army alone while the front line is on many different [warships][5], which means he can leap from boat to boat as a dazzling speed. In his characteristics we can find [swift][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And if you want one historical but still epic if not mythic guy, you can count on&#xD;&#xA;## Pheidippides &#xD;&#xA;Who was a simple [herald][7] who ran from Marathon to announce their victory over Persia to Athenians. He died heroically right after the announcement (Adrenalin, you'll say). This story later inspired the Marathon sport discipline.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/HermesTreasures.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/HermesLoves.html#Apemosyne&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iris_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arke&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_the_Great#Trojan_War&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epithets_in_Homer#Individuals&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pheidippides" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18199" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5473" RevisionGUID="fadf854d-8930-40a1-b614-4548b066809e" CreationDate="2019-02-21T01:08:02.340" UserId="2892" Text="Preface: This subject is complicated by changing social standards.  [Forced marriage][28] has been routinely practiced around the world into the contemporary era, depending on the society. (This is a major theme of Game of Thrones, as is the condition of women in pre-modern societies in general.) [The Rape of the Sabine Women][29] can provide some context. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**I see three main reasons, appeal, ritual, and humanism.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mythology and folklore serves many functions.  They are form of entertainment (appeal), a commemoration of religious events (ritual), and, in the case of the [Classical period][1] in Greece, it is one of the vehicles for the birth of humanism, here principally through Greek Drama. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **Appeal**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This rationale is easy.  &quot;[Sex sells][2]&quot;, and violence as well.  You find everywhere from the very earliest myths to contemporary media.  ([Gilgamesh][3] starts out with a prostitute and a fist fight.  The [Osiris][4] myth involves murder, dismemberment, and necrophilia;) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Storytellers have to support themselves and to do that they need to hold the attention of an audience. One of the central rules of fiction is high stakes = high audience engagement. The more transgressive the better. (*Kill Bill* and *The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo* are contemporary exemplars, and both can be seen as forms of [Philomel][5], which was a female-centered revenge story involving rape.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Ritual**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Burkert][6], [Eliade][7], and [Frazer][8] have written extensively on this subject.  At a very high level, there is archeological evidence of human sacrifice in ancient Europe and other ancient cultures.  Human sacrifice is a central element of several of Euripides' plays, but by the time of Euripides, these sacrifices of legend have been ritualized in the form of drama.  (The [Festivals of Dionysus][9] were religious festivals, and the play [The Bacchae][10] is, at its core, a commemoration of the [death of the god][11].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Persephone, in the ancient context, is a story of coming-of-age.  Her abduction and forced marriage to Hades explain the cycle of life and the seasons. [See: [Kore &amp; Persephone][12]]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is an original religious function to mythology. It covers everything from the creation of the universe to the acts of the gods.  In the case of the Greek gods, these acts are often lurid. The behavior of the gods is commemorated in stories, rituals (re-enactments), and in the acts of humans. Cronus swallows his own children, as do [Tereus][13] and [Thyestes][14]. Just as [Cronus overthrows Ouranos, Zeus overthrows Cronus][15].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus is a serial rapist and so it's not surprising rape becomes a staple of Greek Mythology.  A key difference is that what is permissible for the gods is not necessarily permissible for man--Zeus marries his own sister.  So human rapists in Greek mythology are generally villains (Tereus and Thyestes) and, unlike the gods, typically come to bad ends, even in the case of the hero [little Ajax][16].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Humanism**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The humanism wiki doesn't give the full story because the undermining of divine authority begins with works like the Iliad, which serves many functions, including a subversive function.  In this great poem, the dignity of the gods is undermined while the dignity of man (Achilles and Hector) is elevated.  It also evokes tremendous pity, for Hector in particular--the poem, which begins with the &quot;rage of Achilles&quot;, ends with &quot;the funeral of Hector, the breaker of horses.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unlike the storytellers, thinkers like Plato used mythology to explicate philosophical inquiry.  (In this sense of the Iliad as a subversive text, Zeus may be said not to have escaped the [prophecy on Thetis][17] in being ultimately overthrown, ironically in a rare case where he forgoes having sex;)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Catharsis][18] (pity and dread) was a central element of Greek Drama. Instead of commemorating the travails of the gods, these plays celebrate the ordeals of humans.  In the Bacchae, it is [Pentheus][19] who serves as [tanist][20] for Dionysus.  Aeschylus writes of the sufferings of Prometheus in service of mankind, but also writes of the trials, and vindication, of Orestes.  Sophocles most famous heroine is [Antigone][21], who dies in service of a principle.  Euripides can be viewed as strongly feminist, through plays such as [Hecuba][22], The [Trojan Women][23], and [Iphigenia at Aulis][24].  (Humanism is rooted in the agency of humans, and feminism in the agency of women, both central elements of Greek Drama.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An aspect of Shakespeare that makes the works such standouts is the creation of multi-dimensional female characters, whether villains or heroines. So with Euripides.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like [The Rape of Lucrece][25], Ovid's account of [Philomela][26] evokes tremendous pity. Empathy is a key to seeing the [other][27] as human. It can argued that by creating strong, believable female characters, and in creating sympathy for their travails, authors like Euripides, Ovid and Shakespeare put a spotlight on the condition of women.  In an indirect sense, this can be seen as supporting the idea of women's rights.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;**Political Uses**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There can also be a political component, as in the myth of [Lucrece][30], which casts her abuser, Tarquin, as a tyrant to be overthrown.  Extending the idea of the Latin *[răpĭo][31]*, the meaning of which is rooted in abduction and seizure by force, women, as prizes of war, were &quot;[booty][32]&quot; in both senses of the word.  The abduction of Helen is the pretext for the Trojan War, which, if there was such a war, was surely fought over the trade route connecting Asia &amp; Europe, the [Euxine][33] &amp; [Aegean][34].  Note also that rape, in the modern context, was likely only considered transgressive in regard to wives and daughters in an extra-marital context--only a crime when involving &quot;free women&quot; as opposed to chattel.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;*Note: I tried to keep this answer as concise as possible in that any one of these aspects could fill a dissertation.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece#Classical_Greece&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_in_advertising&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enkidu#Creation_of_Enkidu&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris_myth&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philomela&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Burkert#Academic_works&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mircea_Eliade#Work&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_George_Frazer#His_work&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festivals_of_Dionysus&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bacchae#Plot&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreus&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/5455/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tereus&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyestes#Myth&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus#Mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_the_Lesser#Death&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thetis#Marriage_to_Peleus&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharsis&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentheus&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanistry#Uses_in_literature_and_popular_culture&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigone_(Sophocles_play)#Themes&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0098%3Acard%3D518&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0124%3Acard%3D341&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0108%3Acard%3D1433&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: https://www.folgerdigitaltexts.org/?chapter=5&amp;play=Luc&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D6%3Acard%3D504&#xD;&#xA;  [27]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_(philosophy)&#xD;&#xA;  [28]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_marriage&#xD;&#xA;  [29]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_the_Sabine_Women&#xD;&#xA;  [30]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucretia&#xD;&#xA;  [31]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aalphabetic%20letter%3DR%3Aentry%20group%3D2%3Aentry%3Drapio&#xD;&#xA;  [32]: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/booty&#xD;&#xA;  [33]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea#Name&#xD;&#xA;  [34]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_Sea" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18200" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5473" RevisionGUID="74c4f21e-540b-4338-9a4c-9853a0c1e09b" CreationDate="2019-02-21T01:22:12.317" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 39 characters in body" Text="Preface: This subject is complicated by changing social standards.  [Forced marriage][28] has been routinely practiced around the world into the contemporary era, depending on the society. (This is a major theme of Game of Thrones, as is the condition of women in pre-modern societies in general.) [The Rape of the Sabine Women][29] can provide some context. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**I see three main reasons, appeal, ritual, and humanism.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mythology and folklore serve many functions.  They are form of entertainment (appeal), a commemoration of religious events (ritual), and, in the case of the [Classical period][1] in Greece, it is one of the vehicles for the birth of humanism. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **Appeal**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This rationale is easy.  &quot;[Sex sells][2]&quot;, and violence as well.  You find everywhere from the very earliest myths to contemporary media.  ([Gilgamesh][3] starts out with a prostitute and a fist fight.  The [Osiris][4] myth involves murder, dismemberment, and necrophilia;) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Storytellers have to support themselves and to do that they need to hold the attention of an audience. One of the central rules of fiction is high stakes = high audience engagement. The more transgressive the better. (*Kill Bill* and *The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo* are contemporary exemplars, and both can be seen as forms of [Philomel][5], which was a female-centered revenge story involving rape.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Ritual**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Burkert][6], [Eliade][7], and [Frazer][8] have written extensively on this subject.  At a very high level, there is archeological evidence of human sacrifice in ancient Europe and other ancient cultures.  Human sacrifice is a central element of several of Euripides' plays, but by the time of Euripides, these sacrifices of legend have been ritualized in the form of drama.  (The [Festivals of Dionysus][9] were religious festivals, and the play [The Bacchae][10] is, at its core, a commemoration of the [death of the god][11].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Persephone, in the ancient context, is a story of coming-of-age.  Her abduction and forced marriage to Hades explain the cycle of life and the seasons. [See: [Kore &amp; Persephone][12]]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is an original religious function to mythology. It covers everything from the creation of the universe to the acts of the gods.  In the case of the Greek gods, these acts are often lurid. The behavior of the gods is commemorated in stories, rituals (re-enactments), and in the acts of humans. Cronus swallows his own children, as do [Tereus][13] and [Thyestes][14]. Just as [Cronus overthrows Ouranos, Zeus overthrows Cronus][15].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus is a serial rapist and so it's not surprising rape becomes a staple of Greek Mythology.  A key difference is that what is permissible for the gods is not necessarily permissible for man--Zeus marries his own sister.  So human rapists in Greek mythology are generally villains (Tereus and Thyestes) and, unlike the gods, typically come to bad ends, even in the case of the hero [little Ajax][16].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Humanism**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The humanism wiki doesn't give the full story because the undermining of divine authority begins with works like the Iliad, which has many functions, including subversive.  In this great poem the dignity of the gods is undermined while the dignity of man is elevated through Achilles and Hector.  It also evokes tremendous pity, for Hector in particular--the poem, which begins with the &quot;rage of Achilles&quot;, ends with &quot;the funeral of Hector, the breaker of horses.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unlike the storytellers, thinkers like Plato used mythology to explicate philosophical inquiry.  (In the sense of the Iliad as a subversive text, Zeus may be said to not have escaped the [prophecy on Thetis][17] in being ultimately diminished by her son, ironically in a rare case where he forgoes having sex;)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Catharsis][18] (pity and dread) was a central element of Greek Drama. Instead of exclusively commemorating the travails of the gods, these plays also celebrate the ordeals of humans.  In the Bacchae, it is [Pentheus][19] who serves as [tanist][20] for Dionysus.  Aeschylus writes of the sufferings of Prometheus in service of mankind, but also writes of the trials, and vindication, of Orestes.  Sophocles most famous heroine is [Antigone][21], who dies in service of a principle.  Euripides can be viewed as strongly feminist, through plays such as [Hecuba][22], The [Trojan Women][23], and [Iphigenia at Aulis][24].  (Humanism is rooted in the agency of humans, and feminism in the agency of women, both central elements of Greek Drama.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An aspect of Shakespeare that makes the works such standouts is the creation of multi-dimensional female characters, whether villains or heroines. So with Euripides.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like [The Rape of Lucrece][25], Ovid's account of [Philomela][26] evokes tremendous pity. Empathy is a key to seeing the [other][27] as human. It can argued that by creating strong, believable female characters, and in creating sympathy for their travails, authors like Euripides, Ovid and Shakespeare put a spotlight on the condition of women.  In an indirect sense, this can be seen as supporting the idea of women's rights.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;**Political Uses**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There can also be a political component, as in the myth of [Lucrece][30], which casts her abuser, Tarquin, as a tyrant to be overthrown.  Extending the idea of the Latin *[răpĭo][31]*, the meaning of which is rooted in abduction and seizure by force, women, as prizes of war, were &quot;[booty][32]&quot; in both senses of the word.  The abduction of Helen is the pretext for the Trojan War, which, if there was such a war, was surely fought over the trade route connecting Asia &amp; Europe, the [Euxine][33] &amp; [Aegean][34].  Note also that rape, in the modern context, was likely only considered transgressive in regard to wives and daughters in an extra-marital context--only a crime when involving &quot;free women&quot; as opposed to chattel.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;*Note: I tried to keep this answer as concise as possible in that any one of these aspects could fill a dissertation.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece#Classical_Greece&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_in_advertising&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enkidu#Creation_of_Enkidu&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris_myth&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philomela&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Burkert#Academic_works&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mircea_Eliade#Work&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_George_Frazer#His_work&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festivals_of_Dionysus&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bacchae#Plot&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreus&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/5455/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tereus&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyestes#Myth&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus#Mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_the_Lesser#Death&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thetis#Marriage_to_Peleus&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharsis&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentheus&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanistry#Uses_in_literature_and_popular_culture&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigone_(Sophocles_play)#Themes&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0098%3Acard%3D518&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0124%3Acard%3D341&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0108%3Acard%3D1433&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: https://www.folgerdigitaltexts.org/?chapter=5&amp;play=Luc&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D6%3Acard%3D504&#xD;&#xA;  [27]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_(philosophy)&#xD;&#xA;  [28]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_marriage&#xD;&#xA;  [29]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_the_Sabine_Women&#xD;&#xA;  [30]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucretia&#xD;&#xA;  [31]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aalphabetic%20letter%3DR%3Aentry%20group%3D2%3Aentry%3Drapio&#xD;&#xA;  [32]: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/booty&#xD;&#xA;  [33]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea#Name&#xD;&#xA;  [34]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_Sea" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18201" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5473" RevisionGUID="d05e0d9c-4171-4c46-aa51-8f5c1bc59ba9" CreationDate="2019-02-21T01:28:01.403" UserId="2892" Comment="added 3 characters in body" Text="Preface: This subject is complicated by changing social standards.  [Forced marriage][28] has been routinely practiced around the world into the contemporary era, depending on the society. (This is a major theme of Game of Thrones, as is the condition of women in pre-modern societies in general.) [The Rape of the Sabine Women][29] can provide some context. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**I see three main reasons, appeal, ritual, and humanism.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mythology and folklore serve many functions.  They are form of entertainment (appeal), a commemoration of religious events (ritual), and, in the case of the [Classical period][1] in Greece, it is one of the vehicles for the birth of humanism. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **Appeal**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This rationale is easy.  &quot;[Sex sells][2]&quot;, and violence as well.  You find everywhere from the very earliest myths to contemporary media.  ([Gilgamesh][3] starts out with a prostitute and a fist fight.  The [Osiris][4] myth involves murder, dismemberment, and necrophilia;) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Storytellers have to support themselves and to do that they need to hold the attention of an audience. One of the central rules of fiction is high stakes = high audience engagement. The more transgressive the better. (*Kill Bill* and *The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo* are contemporary exemplars, and both can be seen as forms of [Philomel][5], which was a female-centered revenge story involving rape.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Ritual**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Burkert][6], [Eliade][7], and [Frazer][8] have written extensively on this subject.  At a very high level, there is archeological evidence of human sacrifice in ancient Europe and other ancient cultures.  Human sacrifice is a central element of several of Euripides' plays, but by the time of Euripides, these sacrifices of legend have been ritualized in the form of drama.  (The [Festivals of Dionysus][9] were religious festivals, and the play [The Bacchae][10] is, at its core, a commemoration of the [death of the god][11].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Persephone, in the ancient context, is a story of coming-of-age.  Her abduction and forced marriage to Hades explain the cycle of life and the seasons. [See: [Kore &amp; Persephone][12]]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is an original religious function to mythology. It covers everything from the creation of the universe to the acts of the gods.  In the case of the Greek gods, these acts are often lurid. The behavior of the gods is commemorated in stories, rituals (re-enactments), and in the acts of humans. Cronus swallows his own children, as do [Tereus][13] and [Thyestes][14]. Just as [Cronus overthrows Ouranos, Zeus overthrows Cronus][15].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus is a serial rapist and so it's not surprising rape becomes a staple of Greek Mythology.  A key difference is that what is permissible for the gods is not necessarily permissible for man--Zeus marries his own sister.  So human rapists in Greek mythology are generally villains (Tereus and Thyestes) and, unlike the gods, typically come to bad ends, even in the case of the hero [little Ajax][16].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Humanism**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The humanism wiki doesn't give the full story because the undermining of divine authority begins with works like the Iliad, which has many functions, including subversive.  In this great poem the dignity of the gods is undermined while the dignity of man is elevated through Achilles and Hector.  It also evokes tremendous pity, for Hector in particular--the poem, which begins with the &quot;rage of Achilles&quot;, ends with &quot;the funeral of Hector, the breaker of horses.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unlike the storytellers, thinkers like Plato used mythology to explicate philosophical inquiry.  (In the sense of the Iliad as a subversive text, Zeus may be said to not have escaped the [prophecy on Thetis][17] in being ultimately diminished by her son, ironically in a rare case where he forgoes having sex;)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Catharsis][18] (pity and dread) was a central element of Greek Drama. Instead of exclusively commemorating the travails of the gods, these plays also celebrate the ordeals of humans.  In the Bacchae, it is [Pentheus][19] who serves as [tanist][20] for Dionysus.  Aeschylus writes of the sufferings of Prometheus in service of mankind, but also writes of the trials, and vindication, of Orestes.  Sophocles most famous heroine is [Antigone][21], who dies in service of a principle.  Euripides can be viewed as strongly feminist, through plays such as [Hecuba][22], The [Trojan Women][23], and [Iphigenia at Aulis][24].  (Humanism is rooted in the agency of humans, and feminism in the agency of women, both central elements of Greek Drama.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An aspect of Shakespeare that makes the works such standouts is the creation of multi-dimensional female characters, whether villains or heroines. So with Euripides.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like [The Rape of Lucrece][25], Ovid's account of [Philomela][26] evokes tremendous pity. Empathy is a key to seeing the [other][27] as human. It can argued that by creating strong, believable female characters, and in creating sympathy for their travails, authors like Euripides, Ovid and Shakespeare put a spotlight on the condition of women.  In an indirect sense, this can be seen as supporting the idea of women's rights.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;**Political Uses**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There can also be a political component, as in the myth of [Lucrece][30], which casts her abuser, Tarquin, as a tyrant to be overthrown.  Extending the idea of the Latin *[răpĭo][31]*, the meaning of which is rooted in abduction and seizure by force, women, as prizes of war, were &quot;[booty][32]&quot; in both senses of the word.  The abduction of Helen is the pretext for the Trojan War, which, if there was such a war, was surely fought over the trade route connecting Asia &amp; Europe, the [Euxine][33] &amp; [Aegean][34].  Note also that rape, in the modern conception, was likely only considered transgressive in regard to wives and daughters in an extra-marital context--only a crime when involving &quot;free women&quot; as opposed to chattel.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;*Note: I tried to keep this answer as concise as possible in that any one of these aspects could fill a dissertation.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece#Classical_Greece&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_in_advertising&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enkidu#Creation_of_Enkidu&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris_myth&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philomela&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Burkert#Academic_works&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mircea_Eliade#Work&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_George_Frazer#His_work&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festivals_of_Dionysus&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bacchae#Plot&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreus&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/5455/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tereus&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyestes#Myth&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus#Mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_the_Lesser#Death&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thetis#Marriage_to_Peleus&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharsis&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentheus&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanistry#Uses_in_literature_and_popular_culture&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigone_(Sophocles_play)#Themes&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0098%3Acard%3D518&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0124%3Acard%3D341&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0108%3Acard%3D1433&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: https://www.folgerdigitaltexts.org/?chapter=5&amp;play=Luc&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D6%3Acard%3D504&#xD;&#xA;  [27]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_(philosophy)&#xD;&#xA;  [28]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_marriage&#xD;&#xA;  [29]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_the_Sabine_Women&#xD;&#xA;  [30]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucretia&#xD;&#xA;  [31]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aalphabetic%20letter%3DR%3Aentry%20group%3D2%3Aentry%3Drapio&#xD;&#xA;  [32]: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/booty&#xD;&#xA;  [33]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea#Name&#xD;&#xA;  [34]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_Sea" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18202" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5473" RevisionGUID="69f86a63-702b-4faf-89e8-28c5c4323a1a" CreationDate="2019-02-21T02:37:26.257" UserId="2892" Comment="added 283 characters in body" Text="Preface: This subject is complicated by changing social standards.  [Forced marriage][1] has been routinely practiced around the world into the contemporary era, depending on the society. (This is a major theme of Game of Thrones, as is the condition of women in pre-modern societies in general.) [The Rape of the Sabine Women][2] can provide some context. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**I see three main reasons, appeal, ritual, and humanism.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mythology and folklore serve many functions.  They are form of entertainment (appeal), a commemoration of religious events (ritual), and, in the case of the [Classical period][3] in Greece, it is one of the vehicles for the birth of humanism. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **Appeal**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This rationale is easy.  &quot;[Sex sells][4]&quot;, and violence as well.  You find everywhere from the very earliest myths to contemporary media.  ([Gilgamesh][5] starts out with a prostitute and a fist fight.  The [Osiris][6] myth involves murder, dismemberment, and necrophilia;) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Storytellers have to support themselves and to do that they need to hold the attention of an audience. One of the central rules of fiction is high stakes = high audience engagement. The more transgressive the better. (*Kill Bill* and *The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo* are contemporary exemplars, and both can be seen as forms of [Philomel][7], which was a female-centered revenge story involving rape.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Ritual**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Burkert][8], [Eliade][9], and [Frazer][10] have written extensively on this subject.  At a very high level, there is archeological evidence of human sacrifice in ancient Europe and other ancient cultures.  Human sacrifice is a central element of several of Euripides' plays, but by the time of Euripides, these sacrifices of legend have been ritualized in the form of drama.  (The [Festivals of Dionysus][11] were religious festivals, and the play [The Bacchae][12] is, at its core, a commemoration of the [death of the god][13].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Persephone, in the ancient context, is a story of coming-of-age.  Her abduction and forced marriage to Hades explain the cycle of life and the seasons. [See: [Kore &amp; Persephone][14]]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is an original religious function to mythology. It covers everything from the creation of the universe to the acts of the gods.  In the case of the Greek gods, these acts are often lurid. The behavior of the gods is commemorated in stories, rituals (re-enactments), and in the acts of humans. Cronus swallows his own children, as do [Tereus][15] and [Thyestes][16]. Just as [Cronus overthrows Ouranos, Zeus overthrows Cronus][17].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus is a serial rapist and so it's not surprising rape becomes a staple of Greek Mythology.  A key difference is that what is permissible for the gods is not necessarily permissible for man--Zeus marries his own sister.  So human rapists in Greek mythology are generally villains (Tereus and Thyestes) and, unlike the gods, typically come to bad ends, even in the case of the hero [little Ajax][18].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Humanism**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The humanism wiki doesn't give the full story because the undermining of divine authority begins with works like the Iliad, which has many functions, including subversive.  In this great poem the dignity of the gods is undermined while the dignity of man is elevated through Achilles and Hector.  It also evokes tremendous pity, for Hector in particular--the poem, which begins with the &quot;rage of Achilles&quot;, ends with &quot;the funeral of Hector, the breaker of horses.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unlike the storytellers, thinkers like Plato used mythology to explicate philosophical inquiry.  (In the sense of the Iliad as a subversive text, Zeus may be said to not have escaped the [prophecy on Thetis][19] in being ultimately diminished by her son, ironically in a rare case where he forgoes having sex;)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Catharsis][20] (pity and dread) was a central element of Greek Drama. These plays rarely commemorate the travails of the gods, instead celebrating the ordeals of humans.  In the Bacchae, it is [Pentheus][21] who serves as [tanist][22] for Dionysus.  Aeschylus writes of the sufferings of Prometheus in service of mankind, but also writes of the trials, and vindication, of Orestes.  Sophocles most famous heroine is [Antigone][23], who dies in service of a principle.  Euripides can be viewed as strongly feminist, through plays such as [Hecuba][24], The [Trojan Women][25], and [Iphigenia at Aulis][26].  (Humanism is rooted in the agency of humans, and feminism in the agency of women, both central elements of Greek Drama.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An aspect of Shakespeare that makes the works such standouts is the creation of multi-dimensional female characters, whether villains or heroines. So with Euripides. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like [The Rape of Lucrece][27], Ovid's account of [Philomela][28] evokes tremendous pity. Empathy is a key to seeing the [other][29] as human. [Andromache][35] is play about Hector's wife, and her life as slave, after the fall of Troy.  It can argued that by creating strong, believable female characters, and in generating sympathy for their travails, authors like Euripides, Ovid and Shakespeare put a spotlight on the condition and plight of women.  In an indirect sense, this supports the idea of women's rights.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;**Political Uses**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There can also be a political component, as in the myth of [Lucrece][30], which casts her abuser, Tarquin, as a tyrant to be overthrown.  Extending the idea of the Latin *[răpĭo][31]*, the meaning of which is rooted in abduction and seizure by force, women, as prizes of war, were &quot;[booty][32]&quot; in both senses of the word.  The abduction of Helen is the pretext for the Trojan War, which, if there was such a war, was surely fought over the trade route connecting Asia &amp; Europe, the [Euxine][33] &amp; [Aegean][34]. In this sense the abduction provides the pretext for the war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;Notes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rape, in the modern conception, seems, in pre-modern times, only considered transgressive in regard to wives and daughters specifically in an extra-marital context--i.e. only a crime when involving &quot;free women&quot;, or, women of status, as opposed to chattel, and only outside the bounds of marriage.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*I tried to keep this answer as concise as possible in that any one of these aspects could fill a dissertation.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_marriage&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_the_Sabine_Women&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece#Classical_Greece&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_in_advertising&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enkidu#Creation_of_Enkidu&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris_myth&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philomela&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Burkert#Academic_works&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mircea_Eliade#Work&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_George_Frazer#His_work&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festivals_of_Dionysus&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bacchae#Plot&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreus&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/5455/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tereus&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyestes#Myth&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus#Mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_the_Lesser#Death&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thetis#Marriage_to_Peleus&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharsis&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentheus&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanistry#Uses_in_literature_and_popular_culture&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigone_(Sophocles_play)#Themes&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0098%3Acard%3D518&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0124%3Acard%3D341&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0108%3Acard%3D1433&#xD;&#xA;  [27]: https://www.folgerdigitaltexts.org/?chapter=5&amp;play=Luc&#xD;&#xA;  [28]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D6%3Acard%3D504&#xD;&#xA;  [29]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_(philosophy)&#xD;&#xA;  [30]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucretia&#xD;&#xA;  [31]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aalphabetic%20letter%3DR%3Aentry%20group%3D2%3Aentry%3Drapio&#xD;&#xA;  [32]: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/booty&#xD;&#xA;  [33]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea#Name&#xD;&#xA;  [34]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_Sea&#xD;&#xA;  [35]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromache_(play)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18203" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5473" RevisionGUID="6de18e0f-4d4c-43c2-9b54-c4b9eec12f82" CreationDate="2019-02-21T02:53:01.157" UserId="2892" Comment="added 283 characters in body" Text="Preface: This subject is complicated by changing social standards.  [Forced marriage][1] has been routinely practiced around the world into the contemporary era, depending on the society. (This is a major theme of Game of Thrones, as is the condition of women in pre-modern societies in general.) [The Rape of the Sabine Women][2] can provide some context. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**I see three main reasons, lurid appeal, ritual, and humanism.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mythology and folklore serve many functions.  They are form of entertainment (appeal), a commemoration of religious events (ritual), and, in the case of the [Classical period][3] in Greece, it is one of the vehicles for the birth of humanism. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **Lurid Appeal**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This rationale is easy.  &quot;[Sex sells][4]&quot;, and violence as well.  You find everywhere from the very earliest myths to contemporary media.  ([Gilgamesh][5] starts out with a prostitute and a fist fight.  The [Osiris][6] myth involves murder, dismemberment, and necrophilia.)  Rape is transgressive, and combines the two, and provides a lurid appeal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Storytellers have to support themselves and to do that they need to hold the attention of an audience. One of the central rules of fiction is high stakes = high audience engagement. The more transgressive the better. (*Kill Bill* and *The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo* are contemporary exemplars, and both can be seen as forms of [Philomel][7], which was a female-centered revenge story involving rape.)  Rape is widely used in modern entertainment as a pretext for revenge, so this phenomenon is in no way restricted to Greek mythology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Ritual**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Burkert][8], [Eliade][9], and [Frazer][10] have written extensively on this subject.  At a very high level, there is archeological evidence of human sacrifice in ancient Europe and other ancient cultures.  Human sacrifice is a central element of several of Euripides' plays, but by the time of Euripides, these sacrifices of legend have been ritualized in the form of drama.  (The [Festivals of Dionysus][11] were religious festivals, and the play [The Bacchae][12] is, at its core, a commemoration of the [death of the god][13].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Persephone, in the ancient context, is a story of coming-of-age.  Her abduction and forced marriage to Hades explain the cycle of life and the seasons. [See: [Kore &amp; Persephone][14]]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is an original religious function to mythology. It covers everything from the creation of the universe to the acts of the gods.  In the case of the Greek gods, these acts are often lurid. The behavior of the gods is commemorated in stories, rituals (re-enactments), and in the acts of humans. Cronus swallows his own children, as do [Tereus][15] and [Thyestes][16]. Just as [Cronus overthrows Ouranos, Zeus overthrows Cronus][17].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus is a serial rapist and so it's not surprising rape becomes a staple of Greek Mythology.  A key difference is that what is permissible for the gods is not necessarily permissible for man--Zeus marries his own sister.  So human rapists in Greek mythology are generally villains (Tereus and Thyestes) and, unlike the gods, typically come to bad ends, even in the case of the hero [little Ajax][18].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Humanism**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The humanism wiki doesn't give the full story because the undermining of divine authority begins with works like the Iliad, which has many functions, including subversive.  In this great poem the dignity of the gods is undermined while the dignity of man is elevated through Achilles and Hector.  It also evokes tremendous pity, for Hector in particular--the poem, which begins with the &quot;rage of Achilles&quot;, ends with &quot;the funeral of Hector, the breaker of horses.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unlike the storytellers, thinkers like Plato used mythology to explicate philosophical inquiry.  (In the sense of the Iliad as a subversive text, Zeus may be said to not have escaped the [prophecy on Thetis][19] in being ultimately diminished by her son, ironically in a rare case where he forgoes having sex;)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Catharsis][20] (pity and dread) was a central element of Greek Drama. These plays rarely commemorate the travails of the gods, instead celebrating the ordeals of humans.  In the Bacchae, it is [Pentheus][21] who serves as [tanist][22] for Dionysus.  Aeschylus writes of the sufferings of Prometheus in service of mankind, but also writes of the trials, and vindication, of Orestes.  Sophocles most famous heroine is [Antigone][23], who dies in service of a principle.  Euripides can be viewed as strongly feminist, through plays such as [Hecuba][24], The [Trojan Women][25], and [Iphigenia at Aulis][26].  (Humanism is rooted in the agency of humans, and feminism in the agency of women, both central elements of Greek Drama.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An aspect of Shakespeare that makes the works such standouts is the creation of multi-dimensional female characters, whether villains or heroines. So with Euripides. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like [The Rape of Lucrece][27], Ovid's account of [Philomela][28] evokes tremendous pity. Empathy is a key to seeing the [other][29] as human. [Andromache][30] is play about Hector's wife, and her life as slave, after the fall of Troy.  It can argued that by creating strong, believable female characters, and in generating sympathy for their travails, authors like Euripides, Ovid and Shakespeare put a spotlight on the condition and plight of women.  In an indirect sense, this supports the idea of women's rights.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;**Political Uses**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There can also be a political component, as in the myth of [Lucrece][31], which casts her abuser, Tarquin, as a tyrant to be overthrown.  Extending the idea of the Latin *[răpĭo][32]*, the meaning of which is rooted in abduction and seizure by force, women, as prizes of war, were &quot;[booty][33]&quot; in both senses of the word.  The abduction of Helen is the pretext for the Trojan War, which, if there was such a war, was surely fought over the trade route connecting Asia &amp; Europe, the [Euxine][34] &amp; [Aegean][35]. In this sense the abduction provides the pretext for the war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;Notes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rape, in the modern conception, seems, in pre-modern times, only considered transgressive in regard to wives and daughters specifically in an extra-marital context--i.e. only a crime when involving &quot;free women&quot;, or, women of status, as opposed to chattel, and only outside the bounds of marriage.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Modern statistics on rape][36] can be controversial, but under-reporting is an issue, and it is still all to common.  Rape is still [used as an instrument of warfare][37]. The prevalence of rape in stories and mythology may be a reflection of how common it is in the real world.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*I tried to keep this answer as concise as possible in that any one of these aspects could fill a dissertation.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_marriage&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_the_Sabine_Women&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece#Classical_Greece&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_in_advertising&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enkidu#Creation_of_Enkidu&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris_myth&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philomela&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Burkert#Academic_works&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mircea_Eliade#Work&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_George_Frazer#His_work&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festivals_of_Dionysus&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bacchae#Plot&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreus&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/5455/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tereus&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyestes#Myth&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus#Mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_the_Lesser#Death&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thetis#Marriage_to_Peleus&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharsis&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentheus&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanistry#Uses_in_literature_and_popular_culture&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigone_(Sophocles_play)#Themes&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0098%3Acard%3D518&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0124%3Acard%3D341&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0108%3Acard%3D1433&#xD;&#xA;  [27]: https://www.folgerdigitaltexts.org/?chapter=5&amp;play=Luc&#xD;&#xA;  [28]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D6%3Acard%3D504&#xD;&#xA;  [29]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_(philosophy)&#xD;&#xA;  [30]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromache_(play)&#xD;&#xA;  [31]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucretia&#xD;&#xA;  [32]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aalphabetic%20letter%3DR%3Aentry%20group%3D2%3Aentry%3Drapio&#xD;&#xA;  [33]: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/booty&#xD;&#xA;  [34]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea#Name&#xD;&#xA;  [35]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_Sea&#xD;&#xA;  [36]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics&#xD;&#xA;  [37]: https://www.who.int/reproductivehealth/topics/violence/sexual_violence/en/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18204" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5455" RevisionGUID="4e14b15c-9eee-431e-98f6-1b7109301122" CreationDate="2019-02-21T02:55:07.220" UserId="2892" Comment="added 18 characters in body" Text="As Piper notes, [κόρη][1] (*kore-ay*) is the Greek word for girl.  The linked lexical entry lists usage as girl, bride, and daughter. All three usages are central to the Persephone myth in that, unlike her cousins, Athena and Artemis, Kore is wed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Her myth begins in childhood, picking blossoms with her *maidens*, then her abduction and *marriage*, and finally with Demeter searching for her *daughter*.  [Demeter][2], literally &quot;the Mother&quot; in Greek ([δή][3]  [μήτηρ][4]), is so bereaved, all plants die, what we now call winter. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's not just any marriage, but marriage to the Lord of the Underworld, and not willing but by abduction--these are representative of death.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The miracle is that she returns, hearkening the rebirth of Spring.  The girl has died and it is the woman, Persephone, who emerges.  (Coming of Age.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Persephone's is the cycle of death and rebirth, eventually taking the form of the [Eleusinian Mysteries][5]. (This is similar to Christ's rebirth at [Easter][6], and the idea of the eternality of the spirit, via the Mysteries.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this sense, she is not just a kore, but The Kore.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Kore is the name of the goddess as girl; Persephone as woman and queen of the netherworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dko%2Frh&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3D*dhmh%2Fthr&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Ddh%2F&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dmh%2Fthr&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleusinian_Mysteries&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18205" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5473" RevisionGUID="30fc558a-621f-42ab-85bd-919694ed7a75" CreationDate="2019-02-21T03:14:06.767" UserId="2892" Comment="added 64 characters in body" Text="Preface: This subject is complicated by changing social standards.  [Forced marriage][1] has been routinely practiced around the world into the contemporary era, depending on the society. (This is a major theme of Game of Thrones, as is the condition of women in pre-modern societies in general.) [The Rape of the Sabine Women][2] can provide some context. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**I see three main reasons, lurid appeal, ritual, and humanism.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mythology and folklore serve many functions.  They are form of entertainment (appeal), a commemoration of religious events (ritual), and, in the case of the [Classical period][3] in Greece, it is one of the vehicles for the birth of humanism. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **Lurid Appeal**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This rationale is easy.  &quot;[Sex sells][4]&quot;, and violence as well.  You find everywhere from the very earliest myths to contemporary media.  ([Gilgamesh][5] starts out with a prostitute and a fist fight.  The [Osiris][6] myth involves murder, dismemberment, and necrophilia.)  Rape combines the two (see: &quot;[sexual violence][7]&quot;) and provides a titillation.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Storytellers have to support themselves and to do that they need to hold the attention of an audience. One of the central rules of fiction is high stakes = high audience engagement. The more transgressive the better. (*Kill Bill* and *The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo* are contemporary exemplars, and both can be seen as forms of [Philomel][8], which was a female-centered revenge story involving rape.)  Rape is widely used in modern entertainment as a pretext for revenge, so this phenomenon is in no way restricted to Greek mythology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Ritual**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Burkert][9], [Eliade][10], and [Frazer][11] have written extensively on this subject.  At a very high level, there is archeological evidence of human sacrifice in ancient Europe and other ancient cultures.  Human sacrifice is a central element of several of Euripides' plays, but by the time of Euripides, these sacrifices of legend have been ritualized in the form of drama.  (The [Festivals of Dionysus][12] were religious festivals, and the play [The Bacchae][13] is, at its core, a commemoration of the [death of the god][14].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Persephone, in the ancient context, is a story of coming-of-age.  Her abduction and forced marriage to Hades explain the cycle of life and the seasons. [See: [Kore &amp; Persephone][15]]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is an original religious function to mythology. It covers everything from the creation of the universe to the acts of the gods.  In the case of the Greek gods, these acts are often lurid. The behavior of the gods is commemorated in stories, rituals (re-enactments), and in the acts of humans. Cronus swallows his own children, as do [Tereus][16] and [Thyestes][17]. Just as [Cronus overthrows Ouranos, Zeus overthrows Cronus][18].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus is a serial rapist and so it's not surprising rape becomes a staple of Greek Mythology.  A key difference is that what is permissible for the gods is not necessarily permissible for man--Zeus marries his own sister.  So human rapists in Greek mythology are generally villains (Tereus and Thyestes) and, unlike the gods, typically come to bad ends, even in the case of the hero [little Ajax][19].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Humanism**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The humanism wiki doesn't give the full story because the undermining of divine authority begins with works like the Iliad, which has many functions, including subversive.  In this great poem the dignity of the gods is undermined while the dignity of man is elevated through Achilles and Hector.  It also evokes tremendous pity, for Hector in particular--the poem, which begins with the &quot;rage of Achilles&quot;, ends with &quot;the funeral of Hector, the breaker of horses.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unlike the storytellers, thinkers like Plato used mythology to explicate philosophical inquiry.  (In the sense of the Iliad as a subversive text, Zeus may be said to not have escaped the [prophecy on Thetis][20] in being ultimately diminished by her son, ironically in a rare case where he forgoes having sex;)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Catharsis][21] (pity and dread) was a central element of Greek Drama. These plays rarely commemorate the travails of the gods, instead celebrating the ordeals of humans.  In the Bacchae, it is [Pentheus][22] who serves as [tanist][23] for Dionysus.  Aeschylus writes of the sufferings of Prometheus in service of mankind, but also writes of the trials, and vindication, of Orestes.  Sophocles most famous heroine is [Antigone][24], who dies in service of a principle.  Euripides can be viewed as strongly feminist, through plays such as [Hecuba][25], The [Trojan Women][26], and [Iphigenia at Aulis][27].  (Humanism is rooted in the agency of humans, and feminism in the agency of women, both central elements of Greek Drama.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An aspect of Shakespeare that makes the works such standouts is the creation of multi-dimensional female characters, whether villains or heroines. So with Euripides. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like [The Rape of Lucrece][28], Ovid's account of [Philomela][29] evokes tremendous pity. Empathy is a key to seeing the [other][30] as human. [Andromache][31] is play about Hector's wife, and her life as slave, after the fall of Troy.  It can argued that by creating strong, believable female characters, and in generating sympathy for their travails, authors like Euripides, Ovid and Shakespeare put a spotlight on the condition and plight of women.  In an indirect sense, this supports the idea of women's rights.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;**Political Uses**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There can also be a political component, as in the myth of [Lucrece][32], which casts her abuser, Tarquin, as a tyrant to be overthrown.  Extending the idea of the Latin *[răpĭo][33]*, the meaning of which is rooted in abduction and seizure by force, women, as prizes of war, were &quot;[booty][34]&quot; in both senses of the word.  The abduction of Helen is the pretext for the Trojan War, which, if there was such a war, was surely fought over the trade route connecting Asia &amp; Europe, the [Euxine][35] &amp; [Aegean][36]. In this sense the abduction provides the pretext for the war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;Notes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rape, in the modern conception, seems, in pre-modern times, only considered transgressive in regard to wives and daughters specifically in an extra-marital context--i.e. only a crime when involving &quot;free women&quot;, or, women of status, as opposed to chattel, and only outside the bounds of marriage.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Modern statistics on rape][37] can be controversial, but under-reporting is definitely an issue.  Regardless of the precise numbers, sexual violence is still common, and rape is still [used as an instrument of warfare][38]. The prevalence of rape in stories and mythology may be a reflection of how often it occurs in the real world.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*I tried to keep this answer as concise as possible in that any one of these aspects could fill a dissertation.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_marriage&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_the_Sabine_Women&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece#Classical_Greece&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_in_advertising&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enkidu#Creation_of_Enkidu&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris_myth&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_violence&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philomela&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Burkert#Academic_works&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mircea_Eliade#Work&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_George_Frazer#His_work&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festivals_of_Dionysus&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bacchae#Plot&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreus&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/5455/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tereus&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyestes#Myth&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus#Mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_the_Lesser#Death&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thetis#Marriage_to_Peleus&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharsis&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentheus&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanistry#Uses_in_literature_and_popular_culture&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigone_(Sophocles_play)#Themes&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0098%3Acard%3D518&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0124%3Acard%3D341&#xD;&#xA;  [27]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0108%3Acard%3D1433&#xD;&#xA;  [28]: https://www.folgerdigitaltexts.org/?chapter=5&amp;play=Luc&#xD;&#xA;  [29]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D6%3Acard%3D504&#xD;&#xA;  [30]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_(philosophy)&#xD;&#xA;  [31]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromache_(play)&#xD;&#xA;  [32]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucretia&#xD;&#xA;  [33]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aalphabetic%20letter%3DR%3Aentry%20group%3D2%3Aentry%3Drapio&#xD;&#xA;  [34]: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/booty&#xD;&#xA;  [35]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea#Name&#xD;&#xA;  [36]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_Sea&#xD;&#xA;  [37]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics&#xD;&#xA;  [38]: https://www.who.int/reproductivehealth/topics/violence/sexual_violence/en/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18206" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5473" RevisionGUID="99e765db-0a4e-4503-acb7-234b970f8180" CreationDate="2019-02-21T03:21:25.997" UserId="2892" Comment="added 193 characters in body" Text="Preface: This subject is complicated by changing social standards.  [Forced marriage][1] has been routinely practiced around the world into the contemporary era, depending on the society. (This is a major theme of Game of Thrones, as is the condition of women in pre-modern societies in general.) [The Rape of the Sabine Women][2] can provide some context. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**I see three main reasons, lurid appeal, ritual, and humanism.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mythology and folklore serve many functions.  They are form of entertainment (appeal), a commemoration of religious events (ritual), and, in the case of the [Classical period][3] in Greece, it is one of the vehicles for the birth of humanism. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **Lurid Appeal**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This rationale is easy.  &quot;[Sex sells][4]&quot;, and violence as well.  You find everywhere from the very earliest myths to contemporary media.  ([Gilgamesh][5] starts out with a prostitute and a fist fight.  The [Osiris][6] myth involves murder, dismemberment, and necrophilia.)  Rape combines the two (see: &quot;[sexual violence][7]&quot;) and provides a titillation.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Storytellers have to support themselves and to do that they need to hold the attention of an audience. One of the central rules of fiction is high stakes = high audience engagement. The more transgressive the better. (*Kill Bill* and *The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo* are contemporary exemplars, and both can be seen as forms of [Philomel][8], which was a female-centered revenge story involving rape.)  Rape is widely used in modern entertainment as a pretext for revenge, so this phenomenon is in no way restricted to Greek mythology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Ritual**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Burkert][9], [Eliade][10], and [Frazer][11] have written extensively on this subject.  At a very high level, there is archeological evidence of human sacrifice in ancient Europe and other ancient cultures.  Human sacrifice is a central element of several of Euripides' plays, but by the time of Euripides, these sacrifices of legend have been ritualized in the form of drama.  (The [Festivals of Dionysus][12] were religious festivals, and the play [The Bacchae][13] is, at its core, a commemoration of the [death of the god][14].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Persephone, in the ancient context, is a story of coming-of-age.  Her abduction and forced marriage to Hades explain the cycle of life and the seasons. [See: [Kore &amp; Persephone][15]]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is an original religious function to mythology. It covers everything from the creation of the universe to the acts of the gods.  In the case of the Greek gods, these acts are often lurid. The behavior of the gods is commemorated in stories, rituals (re-enactments), and in the acts of humans. Cronus swallows his own children, as do [Tereus][16] and [Thyestes][17]. Just as [Cronus overthrows Ouranos, Zeus overthrows Cronus][18].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus is a serial rapist and so it's not surprising rape becomes a staple of Greek Mythology.  A key difference is that what is permissible for the gods is not necessarily permissible for man--Zeus marries his own sister.  So human rapists in Greek mythology are generally villains (Tereus and Thyestes) and, unlike the gods, typically come to bad ends, even in the case of the hero [little Ajax][19].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Humanism**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The humanism wiki doesn't give the full story because the undermining of divine authority begins with works like the Iliad, which has many functions, including subversive.  In this great poem the dignity of the gods is undermined while the dignity of man is elevated through Achilles and Hector.  It also evokes tremendous pity, for Hector in particular--the poem, which begins with the &quot;rage of Achilles&quot;, ends with &quot;the funeral of Hector, the breaker of horses.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unlike the storytellers, thinkers like Plato used mythology to explicate philosophical inquiry.  (In the sense of the Iliad as a subversive text, Zeus may be said to not have escaped the [prophecy on Thetis][20] in being ultimately diminished by her son, ironically in a rare case where he forgoes having sex;)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Catharsis][21] (pity and dread) was a central element of Greek Drama. These plays rarely commemorate the travails of the gods, instead celebrating the ordeals of humans.  In the Bacchae, it is [Pentheus][22] who serves as [tanist][23] for Dionysus.  Aeschylus writes of the sufferings of Prometheus in service of mankind, but also writes of the trials, and vindication, of Orestes.  Sophocles most famous heroine is [Antigone][24], who dies in service of a principle.  Euripides can be viewed as strongly feminist, through plays such as [Hecuba][25], The [Trojan Women][26], and [Iphigenia at Aulis][27].  (Humanism is rooted in the agency of humans, and feminism in the agency of women, both central elements of Greek Drama.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An aspect of Shakespeare that makes the works such standouts is the creation of multi-dimensional female characters, whether villains or heroines. So with Euripides. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like [The Rape of Lucrece][28], Ovid's account of [Philomela][29] evokes tremendous pity. Empathy is a key to seeing the [other][30] as human. [Andromache][31] is play about Hector's wife, and her life as slave, after the fall of Troy.  It can argued that by creating strong, believable female characters, and in generating sympathy for their travails, authors like Euripides, Ovid and Shakespeare put a spotlight on the condition and plight of women.  In an indirect sense, this supports the idea of women's rights.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;**Political Uses**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There can also be a political component, as in the myth of [Lucrece][32], which casts her abuser, Tarquin, as a tyrant to be overthrown.  Extending the idea of the Latin *[răpĭo][33]*, the meaning of which is rooted in abduction and seizure by force, women, as prizes of war, were &quot;[booty][34]&quot; in both senses of the word.  The abduction of Helen is the pretext for the Trojan War, which, if there was such a war, was surely fought over the trade route connecting Asia &amp; Europe, the [Euxine][35] &amp; [Aegean][36]. In this sense the abduction provides the pretext for the war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;Notes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rape, in the modern conception, seems, in pre-modern times, only considered transgressive in regard to wives and daughters specifically in an extra-marital context--i.e. only a crime when involving &quot;free women&quot;, or, women of status, as opposed to chattel, and only outside the bounds of marriage.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Modern statistics on rape][37] can be controversial, but under-reporting is definitely an issue.  Regardless of the precise numbers, sexual violence is still common, and rape is still [used as an instrument of warfare][38]. The prevalence of rape in stories and mythology may be a reflection of how often it occurs in the real world.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* I tried to keep this concise in that any one of these aspects could fill a dissertation, so I apologize if everything is not fully explicated.  I can provide more details in comments.  I also recognize this is a potentially charged subject and have attempted to approach it as academically as possible.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_marriage&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_the_Sabine_Women&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece#Classical_Greece&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_in_advertising&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enkidu#Creation_of_Enkidu&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris_myth&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_violence&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philomela&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Burkert#Academic_works&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mircea_Eliade#Work&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_George_Frazer#His_work&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festivals_of_Dionysus&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bacchae#Plot&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreus&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/5455/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tereus&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyestes#Myth&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus#Mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_the_Lesser#Death&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thetis#Marriage_to_Peleus&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharsis&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentheus&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanistry#Uses_in_literature_and_popular_culture&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigone_(Sophocles_play)#Themes&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0098%3Acard%3D518&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0124%3Acard%3D341&#xD;&#xA;  [27]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0108%3Acard%3D1433&#xD;&#xA;  [28]: https://www.folgerdigitaltexts.org/?chapter=5&amp;play=Luc&#xD;&#xA;  [29]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D6%3Acard%3D504&#xD;&#xA;  [30]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_(philosophy)&#xD;&#xA;  [31]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromache_(play)&#xD;&#xA;  [32]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucretia&#xD;&#xA;  [33]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aalphabetic%20letter%3DR%3Aentry%20group%3D2%3Aentry%3Drapio&#xD;&#xA;  [34]: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/booty&#xD;&#xA;  [35]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea#Name&#xD;&#xA;  [36]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_Sea&#xD;&#xA;  [37]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics&#xD;&#xA;  [38]: https://www.who.int/reproductivehealth/topics/violence/sexual_violence/en/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18207" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5473" RevisionGUID="2ad45c42-06e1-4d8d-9cce-9cfa3bc60815" CreationDate="2019-02-21T03:29:56.603" UserId="2892" Comment="added 193 characters in body" Text="Preface: This subject is complicated by changing social standards.  [Forced marriage][1] has been routinely practiced around the world into the contemporary era, depending on the society. (This is a major theme of Game of Thrones, as is the condition of women in pre-modern societies in general.) [The Rape of the Sabine Women][2] can provide some context. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**I see three main reasons, lurid appeal, ritual, and humanism.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mythology and folklore serve many functions.  They are form of entertainment (appeal), a commemoration of religious events (ritual), and, in the case of the [Classical period][3] in Greece, it is one of the vehicles for the birth of humanism. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **Lurid Appeal**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This rationale is easy.  &quot;[Sex sells][4]&quot;, and violence as well.  You find everywhere from the very earliest myths to contemporary media.  ([Gilgamesh][5] starts out with a prostitute and a fist fight.  The [Osiris][6] myth involves murder, dismemberment, and necrophilia.)  Rape combines the two (see: &quot;[sexual violence][7]&quot;) and provides a titillation.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Storytellers have to support themselves and to do that they need to hold the attention of an audience. One of the central rules of fiction is high stakes = high audience engagement. The more transgressive the better. (*Kill Bill* and *The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo* are contemporary exemplars, and both can be seen as forms of [Philomel][8], which was a female-centered revenge story involving rape.)  Rape is widely used in modern entertainment as a pretext for revenge, so this phenomenon is in no way restricted to Greek mythology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Ritual**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Burkert][9], [Eliade][10], and [Frazer][11] have written extensively on this subject.  At a very high level, there is archeological evidence of human sacrifice in ancient Europe and other ancient cultures.  Human sacrifice is a central element of several of Euripides' plays, but by the time of Euripides, these sacrifices of legend have been ritualized in the form of drama.  (The [Festivals of Dionysus][12] were religious festivals, and the play [The Bacchae][13] is, at its core, a commemoration of the [death of the god][14].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is an original religious function to mythology. It covers everything from the creation of the universe to the acts of the gods.  In the case of the Greek gods, these acts are often lurid. The behavior of the gods is commemorated in stories, rituals (re-enactments), and in the acts of humans. Cronus swallows his own children, as do [Tereus][16] and [Thyestes][17]. Just as [Cronus overthrows Ouranos, Zeus overthrows Cronus][18].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Persephone, in the ancient context especially, is a coming-of-age story.  Her abduction and forced marriage to Hades explain the cycle of life and the seasons. [See: [Kore &amp; Persephone][15]]  This is a central myth, explaining winter, and the Kore is an archetype--in some sense, her story is the story of almost all women. Abductions and forced marriage in Greek myth may be reflections of her story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There also the factor that Zeus is a serial rapist and so it's not surprising rape becomes a staple of Greek Mythology.  A key difference is that what is permissible for the gods is not necessarily permissible for man--Zeus marries his own sister.  So human rapists in Greek mythology are generally villains (Tereus and Thyestes) and, unlike the gods, typically come to bad ends, even in the case of the hero [little Ajax][19].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Humanism**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The humanism wiki doesn't give the full story because the undermining of divine authority begins with works like the Iliad, which has many functions, including subversive.  In this great poem the dignity of the gods is undermined while the dignity of man is elevated through Achilles and Hector.  It also evokes tremendous pity, for Hector in particular--the poem, which begins with the &quot;rage of Achilles&quot;, ends with &quot;the funeral of Hector, the breaker of horses.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unlike the storytellers, thinkers like Plato used mythology to explicate philosophical inquiry.  (In the sense of the Iliad as a subversive text, Zeus may be said to not have escaped the [prophecy on Thetis][20] in being ultimately diminished by her son, ironically in a rare case where he forgoes having sex;)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Catharsis][21] (pity and dread) was a central element of Greek Drama. These plays rarely commemorate the travails of the gods, instead celebrating the ordeals of humans.  In the Bacchae, it is [Pentheus][22] who serves as [tanist][23] for Dionysus.  Aeschylus writes of the sufferings of Prometheus in service of mankind, but also writes of the trials, and vindication, of Orestes.  Sophocles most famous heroine is [Antigone][24], who dies in service of a principle.  Euripides can be viewed as strongly feminist, through plays such as [Hecuba][25], The [Trojan Women][26], and [Iphigenia at Aulis][27].  (Humanism is rooted in the agency of humans, and feminism in the agency of women, both central elements of Greek Drama.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An aspect of Shakespeare that makes the works such standouts is the creation of multi-dimensional female characters, whether villains or heroines. So with Euripides. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like [The Rape of Lucrece][28], Ovid's account of [Philomela][29] evokes tremendous pity. Empathy is a key to seeing the [other][30] as human. [Andromache][31] is play about Hector's wife, and her life as slave, after the fall of Troy.  It can argued that by creating strong, believable female characters, and in generating sympathy for their travails, authors like Euripides, Ovid and Shakespeare put a spotlight on the condition and plight of women.  In an indirect sense, this supports the idea of women's rights.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;**Political Uses**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There can also be a political component, as in the myth of [Lucrece][32], which casts her abuser, Tarquin, as a tyrant to be overthrown.  Extending the idea of the Latin *[răpĭo][33]*, the meaning of which is rooted in abduction and seizure by force, women, as prizes of war, were &quot;[booty][34]&quot; in both senses of the word.  The abduction of Helen is the pretext for the Trojan War, which, if there was such a war, was surely fought over the trade route connecting Asia &amp; Europe, the [Euxine][35] &amp; [Aegean][36]. In this sense the abduction provides the pretext for the war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;Notes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rape, in the modern conception, seems, in pre-modern times, only considered transgressive in regard to wives and daughters specifically in an extra-marital context--i.e. only a crime when involving &quot;free women&quot;, or, women of status, as opposed to chattel, and only outside the bounds of marriage.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Modern statistics on rape][37] can be controversial, but under-reporting is definitely an issue.  Regardless of the precise numbers, sexual violence is still common, and rape is still [used as an instrument of warfare][38]. The prevalence of rape in stories and mythology may be a reflection of how often it occurs in the real world.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*I tried to keep this concise in that any one of these aspects could fill a dissertation, so I apologize if everything is not fully explicated.  I can provide more details in comments.  I also recognize this is a potentially charged subject and have attempted to approach it as academically as possible.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_marriage&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_the_Sabine_Women&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece#Classical_Greece&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_in_advertising&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enkidu#Creation_of_Enkidu&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris_myth&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_violence&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philomela&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Burkert#Academic_works&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mircea_Eliade#Work&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_George_Frazer#His_work&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festivals_of_Dionysus&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bacchae#Plot&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreus&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/5455/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tereus&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyestes#Myth&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus#Mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_the_Lesser#Death&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thetis#Marriage_to_Peleus&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharsis&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentheus&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanistry#Uses_in_literature_and_popular_culture&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigone_(Sophocles_play)#Themes&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0098%3Acard%3D518&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0124%3Acard%3D341&#xD;&#xA;  [27]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0108%3Acard%3D1433&#xD;&#xA;  [28]: https://www.folgerdigitaltexts.org/?chapter=5&amp;play=Luc&#xD;&#xA;  [29]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D6%3Acard%3D504&#xD;&#xA;  [30]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_(philosophy)&#xD;&#xA;  [31]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromache_(play)&#xD;&#xA;  [32]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucretia&#xD;&#xA;  [33]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aalphabetic%20letter%3DR%3Aentry%20group%3D2%3Aentry%3Drapio&#xD;&#xA;  [34]: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/booty&#xD;&#xA;  [35]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea#Name&#xD;&#xA;  [36]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_Sea&#xD;&#xA;  [37]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics&#xD;&#xA;  [38]: https://www.who.int/reproductivehealth/topics/violence/sexual_violence/en/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18208" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5473" RevisionGUID="7d2c18b1-8acb-4451-a816-5755fc179612" CreationDate="2019-02-21T04:15:20.713" UserId="2892" Comment="added 44 characters in body" Text="Preface: This subject is complicated by changing social standards.  [Forced marriage][1] has been routinely practiced around the world into the contemporary era, depending on the society. (This is a major theme of Game of Thrones, as is the condition of women in pre-modern societies in general.) [The Rape of the Sabine Women][2] can provide some context. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**I see three main reasons, lurid appeal, ritual, and humanism.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mythology and folklore serve many functions.  They are form of entertainment (appeal), a commemoration of religious events (ritual), and, in the case of the [Classical period][3] in Greece, it is one of the vehicles for the birth of humanism. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **Lurid Appeal**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This rationale is easy.  &quot;[Sex sells][4]&quot;, and violence as well.  You find everywhere from the very earliest myths to contemporary media.  ([Gilgamesh][5] starts out with a prostitute and a fist fight.  The [Osiris][6] myth involves murder, dismemberment, and necrophilia.)  Rape combines the two (see: &quot;[sexual violence][7]&quot;) and provides a titillation.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Storytellers have to support themselves and to do that they need to hold the attention of an audience. One of the central rules of fiction is high stakes = high audience engagement. The more transgressive the better. (*Kill Bill* and *The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo* are contemporary exemplars, and both can be seen as forms of [Philomel][8], which was a female-centered revenge story involving rape.)  Rape is widely used in modern entertainment as a pretext for revenge, so this phenomenon is in no way restricted to Greek mythology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Ritual**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Burkert][9], [Eliade][10], and [Frazer][11] have written extensively on this subject.  At a very high level, there is archeological evidence of human sacrifice in ancient Europe and other ancient cultures.  Human sacrifice is a central element of several of Euripides' plays, but by the time of Euripides, these sacrifices of legend have been ritualized in the form of drama.  (The [Festivals of Dionysus][12] were religious festivals, and the play [The Bacchae][13] is, at its core, a commemoration of the [death of the god][14].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is an original religious function to mythology. It covers everything from the creation of the universe to the acts of the gods.  In the case of the Greek gods, these acts are often lurid. The behavior of the gods is commemorated in stories, rituals (re-enactments), and in the acts of humans. Cronus swallows his own children, as do [Tereus][16] and [Thyestes][17]. Just as [Cronus overthrows Ouranos, Zeus overthrows Cronus][18].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Persephone, in the ancient context especially, is a coming-of-age story.  Her abduction and forced marriage to Hades explain the cycle of life and the seasons. It's also symbolic of death and rebirth.  [See: [Kore &amp; Persephone][15]]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Persephone's is a central myth, explaining winter, and the Kore is an archetype--in some sense, her story is the story of almost all women. Abductions and forced marriage in Greek myth may be reflections of her story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There also the factor that Zeus is a serial rapist and so it's not surprising rape becomes a staple of Greek Mythology.  A key difference is that what is permissible for the gods is not necessarily permissible for man--Zeus marries his own sister.  So human rapists in Greek mythology are generally villains (Tereus and Thyestes) and, unlike the gods, typically come to bad ends, even in the case of the hero [little Ajax][19].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Humanism**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The humanism wiki doesn't give the full story because the undermining of divine authority begins with works like the Iliad, which has many functions, including subversive.  In this great poem the dignity of the gods is undermined while the dignity of man is elevated through Achilles and Hector.  It also evokes tremendous pity, for Hector in particular--the poem, which begins with the &quot;rage of Achilles&quot;, ends with &quot;the funeral of Hector, the breaker of horses.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unlike the storytellers, thinkers like Plato used mythology to explicate philosophical inquiry.  (In the sense of the Iliad as a subversive text, Zeus may be said to not have escaped the [prophecy on Thetis][20] in being ultimately diminished by her son, ironically in a rare case where he forgoes having sex;)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Catharsis][21] (pity and dread) was a central element of Greek Drama. These plays rarely commemorate the travails of the gods, instead celebrating the ordeals of humans.  In the Bacchae, it is [Pentheus][22] who serves as [tanist][23] for Dionysus.  Aeschylus writes of the sufferings of Prometheus in service of mankind, but also writes of the trials, and vindication, of Orestes.  Sophocles most famous heroine is [Antigone][24], who dies in service of a principle.  Euripides can be viewed as strongly feminist, through plays such as [Hecuba][25], The [Trojan Women][26], and [Iphigenia at Aulis][27].  (Humanism is rooted in the agency of humans, and feminism in the agency of women, both central elements of Greek Drama.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An aspect of Shakespeare that makes the works such standouts is the creation of multi-dimensional female characters, whether villains or heroines. So with Euripides. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like [The Rape of Lucrece][28], Ovid's account of [Philomela][29] evokes tremendous pity. Empathy is a key to seeing the [other][30] as human. [Andromache][31] is play about Hector's wife, and her life as slave, after the fall of Troy.  It can argued that by creating strong, believable female characters, and in generating sympathy for their travails, authors like Euripides, Ovid and Shakespeare put a spotlight on the condition and plight of women.  In an indirect sense, this supports the idea of women's rights.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;**Political Uses**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There can also be a political component, as in the myth of [Lucrece][32], which casts her abuser, Tarquin, as a tyrant to be overthrown. This is the rationale for the establishment of the Roman Republic. Exploring the meaning of the Latin *[răpĭo][33]*, rooted in abduction and seizure by force, women, as prizes of war, were &quot;[booty][34]&quot; in both senses of the word.  The abduction of Helen is the *pretext* for the Trojan War, but, if there was such a war, it was surely fought over the trade route connecting Asia &amp; Europe and the [Euxine][35] &amp; [Aegean][36]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;Notes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rape, in the modern conception, seems, in pre-modern times, only considered transgressive in regard to wives and daughters specifically in an extra-marital context--i.e. only a crime when involving &quot;free women&quot;, or, women of status, as opposed to chattel, and only outside the bounds of marriage.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Modern statistics on rape][37] can be controversial, but under-reporting is definitely an issue.  Regardless of the precise numbers, sexual violence is still common, and rape is still [used as an instrument of warfare][38]. The prevalence of rape in stories and mythology may be a reflection of how often it occurs in the real world.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*I tried to keep this concise in that any one of these aspects could fill a dissertation, so I apologize if everything is not fully explicated.  I can provide more details in comments.  I also recognize this is a potentially charged subject and have attempted to approach it as academically as possible.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_marriage&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_the_Sabine_Women&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece#Classical_Greece&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_in_advertising&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enkidu#Creation_of_Enkidu&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris_myth&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_violence&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philomela&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Burkert#Academic_works&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mircea_Eliade#Work&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_George_Frazer#His_work&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festivals_of_Dionysus&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bacchae#Plot&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreus&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/5455/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tereus&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyestes#Myth&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus#Mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_the_Lesser#Death&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thetis#Marriage_to_Peleus&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharsis&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentheus&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanistry#Uses_in_literature_and_popular_culture&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigone_(Sophocles_play)#Themes&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0098%3Acard%3D518&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0124%3Acard%3D341&#xD;&#xA;  [27]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0108%3Acard%3D1433&#xD;&#xA;  [28]: https://www.folgerdigitaltexts.org/?chapter=5&amp;play=Luc&#xD;&#xA;  [29]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D6%3Acard%3D504&#xD;&#xA;  [30]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_(philosophy)&#xD;&#xA;  [31]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromache_(play)&#xD;&#xA;  [32]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucretia&#xD;&#xA;  [33]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aalphabetic%20letter%3DR%3Aentry%20group%3D2%3Aentry%3Drapio&#xD;&#xA;  [34]: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/booty&#xD;&#xA;  [35]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea#Name&#xD;&#xA;  [36]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_Sea&#xD;&#xA;  [37]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics&#xD;&#xA;  [38]: https://www.who.int/reproductivehealth/topics/violence/sexual_violence/en/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18209" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5474" RevisionGUID="f49bc418-380b-4cb6-b3df-922235ec43ed" CreationDate="2019-02-21T05:39:46.557" UserDisplayName="user5459" Text="According to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Canaanite_religion#Cosmology and https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_prostitution#Sacred_marriage, a deity would marry a city or be married to a king (probably symbolically). But I can't seem to find how and why such beliefs emerged. What was the reason that caused the belief of a sacred marriage between a man and a goddess or a god and a city?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18210" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5474" RevisionGUID="f49bc418-380b-4cb6-b3df-922235ec43ed" CreationDate="2019-02-21T05:39:46.557" UserDisplayName="user5459" Text="Question about the ancient Near East?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18211" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5474" RevisionGUID="f49bc418-380b-4cb6-b3df-922235ec43ed" CreationDate="2019-02-21T05:39:46.557" UserDisplayName="user5459" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18212" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5474" RevisionGUID="55423365-669b-4621-ad4b-c55e6ee5f6f8" CreationDate="2019-02-21T05:47:25.717" UserDisplayName="user5459" Comment="added 16 characters in body" Text="According to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Canaanite_religion#Cosmology and https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_prostitution#Sacred_marriage, a deity would marry a city or a goddess would be said to be married to a king. But I can't seem to find how and why such beliefs emerged. What was the reason that caused the belief of a sacred marriage between a god and a city? Why would people start saying a king is married to a goddess?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18213" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5474" RevisionGUID="652ccfda-d0a3-4e68-b30b-19a9072a3bd3" CreationDate="2019-02-21T11:12:54.097" UserId="201" Comment="tried to rewrite title for SEO purposes" Text="How did the belief of &quot;marrying&quot; a deity emerge?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18216" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5475" RevisionGUID="0678ee12-66aa-4ccc-b751-09400895c8c1" CreationDate="2019-02-22T01:42:59.377" UserId="3947" Text="In accordance with both Jewish and Christian theology, there is only 1 God - Yahweh - who is the creator of everything: angels, people, animals, the universe, earth, etc. Worship of anything or anyone besides Yahweh was (and is) prohibited because only Yahweh has and deserves the rank of being divine. Keep these things in mind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A demigod is, according to Google:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a being with partial or lesser divine status, such as a minor deity,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the offspring of a god and a mortal, or a mortal raised to divine&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rank.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This idea of demigods exist in many mythologies, such as Greek mythology. However, this is not seen at all in the Bible. For the Nephilim to be considered demigods, they would have to be &quot;the offspring of a god and a mortal.&quot; However, they are the offspring of the &quot;sons of God&quot; (which @SamBC said are angels according to ancient Hebrew sources) and of the &quot;daughters of men.&quot; Angels are spiritual beings created directly by God; they are not deities, they are not divine, they are not even demigods. Thus, any offspring of theirs are not demigods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To reiterate what @SamBC said, the Greek heroes and demigods were the focus of Greek mythology, and this is true to most mythologies. However, the Nephilim were not the focus of the story, let alone the focus of the Bible. They are only barely mentioned one other time in the book of Numbers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now here is an interesting idea. This passage could be the key to explaining (from a biblical worldview) many mythologies and legends. These Nephilim are described as being &quot;the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.&quot; Perhaps the demigods of, for example, Greek mythology were some of the Nephilim. Deuteronomy 32:17 calls false gods demons, using parallelism in the verse. Considering that the &quot;sons of God&quot; were angels who committed these perversions, they can be considered as fallen angels or demons. Perhaps these gods of mythologies are demons like these, and the demigods, their offspring, are the Nephilim." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18217" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5476" RevisionGUID="52a2a5bc-b000-47eb-b12e-72778617cee4" CreationDate="2019-02-22T02:14:00.810" UserId="3947" Text="First let's examine your question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; My understanding is that archangel Lucifer was cast out of Heaven was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; because he refused to accept the humans and that was a sin in God's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eyes. This tells us that angels can be bad.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lucifer was cast out of heaven for thinking he could be God or overthrow God. He deceived a third of the angels, all of which (including Lucifer) were cast of out heaven. Hence, why they are called &quot;fallen angels.&quot; They all saw God, and knew who he was, and yet still thought they could overthrow Him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; From what I'm told, humans can commit no sin that God will not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eventually forgive. He sees all sins equally. When a human doesn't&#xD;&#xA;&gt; seek forgiveness, that human's soul goes to Hell. In Hell, the soul is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tortured, tormented and corrupted. It eventually becomes a demon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As mentioned by other answers, there is indeed an unforgivable sin. This unforgivable sin is blaspheming the Holy Spirit. I highly recommend you read [this article](https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-is-the-unforgivable-sin). Basically, blaspheming the Holy Spirit is to &quot;attribute the work of God’s Spirit to the devil.&quot; (quote from the linked article)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When people say that God treats all sin equally, they are somewhat in error, as there is an unforgivable sin. However, clarification is needed as to what sin is. A sin is essentially an act of rebellion/disobedience against God. All humans are born with a sinful nature that causes us to have a tendency to commit sin. This does not remove our responsibility from us, for we have the freedom of will to resist this tendency or to embrace it. Each act of sin is, in a sense, &quot;equal&quot; because God does not condemn humans for their acts of sin but for their Sin. By default, we are going to go to Hell. But God, in His love, does not want to condemn us but rather, to spend eternity with us in a relationship with us. This is why He made us. So He sent His Son, Jesus, to die a brutal death on the cross for our Sin so we won't have to be condemned for it. But for this amazing gift to be applied to us, we have to accept it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So a demon is eventually a human soul and thus, God can still forgive&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the human if it takes a path of redemption.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A demon is a fallen angel, it is never a human soul or spirit. Actually, don't say soul, this is an idea from the Greeks and is not in the Bible. Spirit is more accurate. There is the body and spirit which are interestingly connected. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But the question is, would God forgive a demon and allow it entrance&#xD;&#xA;&gt; into Heaven?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When an angel has rebelled against God (and are now considered a demon), they are not given this opportunity that we have to be forgiven. Had Jesus been part angel and part man, along with being God, then yes angels/demons could have that opportunity. But this is not the case. Jesus is 100% man and 100% God. Thus only humans have the opportunity to be forgiven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why can't demons be forgiven? Because they have seen the fullness of God's power and glory, yet still have rebelled against Him and have tried to (futilely) overthrow Him. The same is not so with us humans. While Adam and Eve saw God, they did not see the fullness of His power and did not try to overthrow Him. Also, they were created in God's image, but angels were not. So God, having created humans specifically to be loved by Him and to be in a relationship with Him, gave them a second-chance through Jesus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hopefully this clarified some things, and answered your question. More so, I hope this made sense." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18218" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4946" RevisionGUID="010b01e1-5581-401e-9023-30fb306557d7" CreationDate="2019-02-22T03:02:05.303" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="18220" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5477" RevisionGUID="c81953b5-a699-4c1d-b91d-7ff6299d6df8" CreationDate="2019-02-22T11:32:56.343" UserId="5726" Text="The only thing that may fit the description is the [Grim Reaper][1] for instance. He or She is more or less a “neutral” entity, who doesn’t work for god or the devil, but for both. Doing his / her job. That’s the only creature / entity I can think of who could eventually be considered as half way between an angel and a demon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mostly these creatures feature in videogames like Diablo ([Nephalem][2]) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_(personification)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://diablo.fandom.com/wiki/Nephalem&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All in all angels and demons are opposites&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  - Angels are considered to be good and demons are considered to be&#xD;&#xA;   evil.&#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;  - Angels are good spirits and considered to be saviours of mankind&#xD;&#xA;   whereas demons are evil spirits who tempt mankind to indulge in evil&#xD;&#xA;   acts.&#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;  - Angels are known to be protectors of the innocent and the faithful.&#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;  - Angels are known to perform many tasks that include maintaining&#xD;&#xA;   order of the universe and also bridging the gap between mankind and&#xD;&#xA;   God.&#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;  - The demons want utter chaos of the universe. &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;  - They are not protectors but only destructors. &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;  - They wish to widen the gap between human kind and god.&#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;  - The angels impart love, kindness and brotherhood whereas demons&#xD;&#xA;   impart hatred and cruelty among mankind. &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;  - The demons believe in rebellion against god." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18221" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5477" RevisionGUID="f0d8e690-0664-44d4-973c-3159b46545fa" CreationDate="2019-02-22T11:40:24.403" UserId="5726" Comment="improved explanation" Text="The only thing that may fit the description is the [Grim Reaper][1] for instance. He or She is more or less a “neutral” entity, who doesn’t work for god or the devil, but for both. Doing his / her job. That’s the only creature / entity I can think of who could eventually be considered as half way between an angel and a demon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mostly these creatures feature in videogames like Diablo ([Nephalem][2]) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_(personification)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://diablo.fandom.com/wiki/Nephalem&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All in all angels and demons are opposites&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  - **Angels** are considered to be *good* and **demons** are considered to be&#xD;&#xA;   *evil*.&#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;  - **Angels** are good spirits and considered to be saviours of mankind&#xD;&#xA;   whereas demons are evil spirits who tempt mankind to indulge in evil&#xD;&#xA;   acts.&#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;  - **Angels** are known to be protectors of the innocent and the faithful.&#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;  - **Angels** are known to perform many tasks that include maintaining&#xD;&#xA;   order of the universe and also bridging the gap between mankind and&#xD;&#xA;   God.&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;  - The **demons** want utter chaos of the universe. &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;   - They are not protectors but only destructors. &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;   - They wish to widen the gap between human kind and god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;  - The **angels** impart love, kindness and brotherhood whereas demons&#xD;&#xA;   impart hatred and cruelty among mankind. &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;  - The **demons** believe in rebellion against god." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18222" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5477" RevisionGUID="88945f18-9587-4d28-a4d3-151f32db15d1" CreationDate="2019-02-22T14:43:53.303" UserId="5726" Comment="deleted 13 characters in body" Text="The only thing that may fit the description is the [Grim Reaper][1]. He or She is more or less a “neutral” entity, who doesn’t work for god or the devil, but for both. Doing his / her job. That’s the only creature / entity I can think of who could eventually be considered as half way between an angel and a demon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mostly these creatures feature in videogames like Diablo ([Nephalem][2]) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_(personification)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://diablo.fandom.com/wiki/Nephalem&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All in all angels and demons are opposites&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  - **Angels** are considered to be *good* and **demons** are considered to be&#xD;&#xA;   *evil*.&#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;  - **Angels** are good spirits and considered to be saviours of mankind&#xD;&#xA;   whereas demons are evil spirits who tempt mankind to indulge in evil&#xD;&#xA;   acts.&#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;  - **Angels** are known to be protectors of the innocent and the faithful.&#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;  - **Angels** are known to perform many tasks that include maintaining&#xD;&#xA;   order of the universe and also bridging the gap between mankind and&#xD;&#xA;   God.&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;  - The **demons** want utter chaos of the universe. &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;   - They are not protectors but only destructors. &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;   - They wish to widen the gap between human kind and god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;  - The **angels** impart love, kindness and brotherhood whereas demons&#xD;&#xA;   impart hatred and cruelty among mankind. &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;  - The **demons** believe in rebellion against god." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18225" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5480" RevisionGUID="3d300409-291d-424c-84a3-23ffa2de5480" CreationDate="2019-02-22T20:52:05.060" UserId="5830" Text="From The Bible when the disobedient spirit sons of God (angels) materialised human bodies and took human wives for themselves and produced hybrid offspring called Nephilim (Giants):-&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;NWT Genesis 6:1, 2 &quot;Now when men started to grow in number on the surface of the ground and daughters were born to them, 2 **the sons** of the true God began to notice that the daughters of men were beautiful. So **they began taking as wives all whom they chose**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The result of the unnatural union, spirit &amp; human, was:-&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;NWT Genesis 6:4  &quot;The Nephilim were on the earth in those days and afterward. During that time the sons of the true God continued to have relations with the daughters of men, and these bore sons to them. They were the mighty ones of old times, the men of fame.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18230" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5483" RevisionGUID="3a5cf25a-d04a-4df0-8bf7-ab30f90d41b8" CreationDate="2019-02-23T06:21:30.767" UserId="5834" Text="Where did the well known trope of a 'City in a Bottle', as associated with middle eastern mythology, originate?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is referenced in modern culture (see the City in a Bottle Magic the Gathering Card, Sandman #50: Ramadan by Neil Gaiman, etc), and is always associated with the middle east, Arabia in particular. I thought that it originated somewhere in the 1001 Nights, but I have not been able to locate the particular story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can anyone shed light on the origins of this idea?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18231" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5483" RevisionGUID="3a5cf25a-d04a-4df0-8bf7-ab30f90d41b8" CreationDate="2019-02-23T06:21:30.767" UserId="5834" Text="Where did the idea of the 'City in Bottle' Originate?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18232" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5483" RevisionGUID="3a5cf25a-d04a-4df0-8bf7-ab30f90d41b8" CreationDate="2019-02-23T06:21:30.767" UserId="5834" Text="|myth-identification|arabic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18233" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5217" RevisionGUID="e730c2ca-dbd7-46e4-9a3f-b60a1c7d342c" CreationDate="2019-02-23T09:04:01.230" UserId="5503" Comment="spelling correction" Text="## Gothic ##&#xD;&#xA;As mentioned [in andejons’ answer][1], there is not a lot of material in the Gothic language. Apart from Wulfila's Bible translation on the [Wulfila project][2] (where you can also find a calendar fragment, the Gothic signatures of the Naples and Arezzo deeds and the *Skeireins* fragment, a part of a commentary on the gospel of John), there is another website, [**www.gotica.de**][3], which apart from the aforementioned fragments also contains some other smaller fragments in Gothic. These texts are useful to study the Gothic language and how the Goths interpreted the Bible, but we can learn very little about their mythology from these texts. The problem is that the Goths already had become Christians before most written sources mention anything about them, so we do not know much about their pre-christian stories and beliefs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, in Latin we do have a text known under the title ***De origine actibusque Getarum*** or *Getica*, by Jordanes. It mixes earlier Roman and Greek sources with oral Gothic sources, and it represents both the mythological and historical background of the Goths. However, a lot of information is drawn from sources that write about peoples who were not actually Goths but other peoples with similar names or living earlier in the same areas that where later inhabited by Goths. A Latin edition can be found online [here][4] and (together with an English translation and notes) [here][5]. [A more recent scholarly edition of the Latin text][6] with elaborate notes and a side-by-side Italian translation was published in France in 2017.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Old-Norse, we have the *Hervarar saga ok Heiðreks*, in which we find a poem commonly known under the name of ***Hlǫðskviða***, about a battle of the Goths with the Huns. This poem may or may not reflect an earlier Gothic tradition about the same events. An Old-Norse version can be found [here][7] and (together with an English translation and notes) [here][8]. You may also want to look at [Wikipedia][9] for some basic background information.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You might be interested to know that, apart from this, in later times myths about the Gothic kings **Ermanaric** (also mentioned in the *Getica*) and **Theoderic** (a historical ruler of the Ostrogoths) started to appear elsewhere in Europe, for example in the Latin *Annals of Quedlinburg*, the Old High German *Hildebrandslied*, the Old English poems *Waldere*, *Deor* and *Widsith*, the Old-Norse *Þiðreks Saga* and some texts in the *Poetic Edda*, as well as in the Middle High German Heldenbücher and the Niebelungenlied (amongst others). But note that these are no Gothic stories, they are stories of a much later date about Gothic heroes who lived several centuries earlier.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/5181/5503&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.wulfila.be/gothic/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.gotica.de/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/iordanes1.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.harbornet.com/folks/theedrich/Goths/Goths1.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.lesbelleslettres.com/livre/3403-getica&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://heimskringla.no/wiki/Hervarar_saga_ok_Hei%C3%B0reks&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.germanicmythology.com/FORNALDARSAGAS/HervararSagaTunstall.html&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hl%C3%B6%C3%B0skvi%C3%B0a" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18241" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5164" RevisionGUID="ee5b36df-7270-45cd-80dc-24e25548f6d0" CreationDate="2019-02-23T18:26:38.770" UserId="2807" Comment="Replaced &quot;Odyssey&quot; with &quot;Odysseus&quot;" Text="Yes, the Trojans could have surrendered Helen to avoid war. Before the fighting began, an embassy composed of Menelaus and Odysseus was dispatched to Troy demanding the return of Helen. This the subject of [Sophocles'](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophocles#Fragmentary_plays) now lost *Helenes Apaitesis*, and referenced during the *Iliad* by [Antenor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antenor_(mythology)) (who hosted the Greeks) and [Agamemnon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agamemnon). Evidently, Priam rejected the demand.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Elsewhere in the *Iliad*, Paris actually proposed a duel with Menelaus to end the war, and this was accepted by the Greeks. As Agamemnon vowed:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; If Alexandrus kills Menelaus, let him keep Helen and all her wealth,&#xD;&#xA;while we sail home with our ships; but if Menelaus kills Alexandrus,&#xD;&#xA;let the Trojans give back Helen and all that she has; let them moreover&#xD;&#xA;pay such fine to the Achaeans as shall be agreed upon, in testimony&#xD;&#xA;among those that shall be born hereafter.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;The Iliad, Book III&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Menelaus won the duel, though Aphrodite spirited Paris away before the killing blow. All indications were that if Helen was then returned to Menelaus, the war would be ended. However, the truce was then broken by the Trojans at the instigation of Athena, with the result that fighting resumed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's no single reason for why the Trojans refused to surrender Helen - not all Trojans were of one mind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One reason would be Helen's beauty. Several of the wisest elders of Troy actually believed they *should* return Helen to Menelaus, but find it a matter of course that the Trojans would fight to keep such beauty:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When they saw Helen coming towards the tower, they said softly to one another, &quot;Small wonder that Trojans and Achaeans should endure so much and so long, for the sake of a woman so marvellously and divinely lovely. Still, fair though she be, let them take her and go, or she will breed sorrow for us and for our children after us.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Likewise, this is obviously Paris' motivation, and he bribed other Trojans into supporting him in keeping Helen:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It was Antimachus who had been foremost in preventing&#xD;&#xA;Helen's being restored to Menelaus, for he was largely bribed by Alexandrus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Secondly, both Priam, the King, and Hector, the greatest hero of Troy, appeared to genuinely care for Helen. As Helen mourned at Hector's funeral,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  &quot;Hector,&quot; said she, &quot;dearest of all my brothers-in-law . . . I have never heard one word of insult or unkindness from you. When another would chide with me, as it might be one of your brothers or sisters or of your brothers' wives, or my mother-in-law - for Priam was as kind to me as though he were my own father - you would rebuke and check them with words of gentleness and goodwill.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, Priam might have had the additional motivation of revenge. Years before the Trojan War, the Greek hero [Heracles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heracles) sacked Troy and captured Priam's sister [Hesione](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesione). She was given to to [Telamon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telamon), father of Ajax and Teucer. At some point prior to Paris' seduction of Helen, Priam requested the return of his sister but was rebuked.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the version told in the 13th century *Historia Troiana*, the Trojan ambassador Antenor, received a hostile reception from the Greek kings. In response, Priam sent an army to retrieve Heosine by force under the command of Paris, who diverted the army to seize Helen instead. It is thus understandable if Priam give the Archaeans a taste of their own medicine." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18243" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5485" RevisionGUID="3324b322-fdf1-4832-ad25-d393bd3a14c6" CreationDate="2019-02-23T23:20:26.750" UserId="5842" Text="And yet in the book of Job Satan also known as Lucifer in some texts is seated with the archangels because God beckoned him to come and as an Angel of God he responded and then made a deal to tempt Job to prove he would turn against God if bad things happened to him.  If God truly was angry with Satan or Lucifer then why would he allow him in his company, also if one thing can be good and turn bad then another can be bad and turn good.  That would be like saying you rebelled against your parents and got into drugs and horrible things and they would never love you or let you in their house, if we are created in God's image with his sense of forgiveness then no parent can hold a grudge against their child whom they love and Lucifer was the most beloved of them all." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18246" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5486" RevisionGUID="0dad5a68-556b-491e-a67b-1a5e62a7c8a9" CreationDate="2019-02-24T20:06:07.110" UserId="5844" Text="Is there any culture that celebrates the day of conception instead of the tipical birthday we enjoy in occidental countries?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It would be a more exact event in some ways, imho." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18247" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5486" RevisionGUID="0dad5a68-556b-491e-a67b-1a5e62a7c8a9" CreationDate="2019-02-24T20:06:07.110" UserId="5844" Text="Day of birth, day of conception" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18248" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5486" RevisionGUID="0dad5a68-556b-491e-a67b-1a5e62a7c8a9" CreationDate="2019-02-24T20:06:07.110" UserId="5844" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18250" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5196" RevisionGUID="17b703f9-d367-4662-83ad-4f3428107844" CreationDate="2019-02-25T11:05:10.443" UserId="5247" Comment="added 3 characters in body" Text="**Old Irish**&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;[**Mary Jones' Celtic Literature Collective**][3] This is the best place to find Irish and Wesh language mythology with the original sources. It's actually an amateur project, but I've seen it referenced and students directed there on university courses.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**CELT: Corpus of Electronic Texts**][1] A good but limited source of Irish texts of all ages, because it (and Vanhamel below) include all forms of Irish literature, their mythology section can be wanting.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Vanhamel Codecs**][2] A good guide to get a grounding of what text is where, what language period, and related publications (papers etc). Doesn't have the actual texts but will point you in the right direction.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Irish Script On Screen**][4] If you want to take it further than that and you're fluent in Sengoidelic and well versed in Insular script, Irish script on Screen has a growing collection of digitised Irish Manuscripts available online. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**The Mythological Cycle of Medieval Irish Literature, John Carey, 2018**][5] (€12) If you're willing to pay, this is one of best (and succinct) guides to medieval Irish mythology and literature, plus it's very up to date.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Ireland's Immortals, Mark Williams, 2016**][6] (~ £20) Carey's book is short for a reason, it's because this book came out before he could finish writing his. This tackles the same subject as Carey's book but is **far more in-depth** and if you wanted about 400 pages more of Carey's book (more of a pamphlet) then this book is what you need.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These books don't contain the original sources or translations but make for excellent guides and'll show you exactly what you need to know. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://celt.ucc.ie//&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.vanhamel.nl/codecs/Home&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.isos.dias.ie/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://uccshop.ie/shop/mythological-cycle-medieval-irish-literature/&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Irelands-Immortals-History-Gods-Irish/dp/0691157316" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18251" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5480" RevisionGUID="17555fbf-2781-451d-bf43-9f7d4ac71825" CreationDate="2019-02-25T11:26:36.620" UserDisplayName="user5835" Comment="typo put right" Text="From The Bible when the disobedient spirit sons of God (angels) materialised human bodies and took human wives for themselves and produced hybrid offspring called Nephilim (Giants):-&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;NWT Genesis 6:1, 2 &quot;Now when men started to grow in number on the surface of the ground and daughters were born to them, 2 **the sons** of the true God began to notice that the daughters of men were beautiful. So **they began taking as wives all whom they chose**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The result of the unnatural union, spirit beings &amp; human beings, was:-&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;NWT Genesis 6:4  &quot;The Nephilim were on the earth in those days and afterward. During that time the sons of the true God continued to have relations with the daughters of men, and these bore sons to them. They were the mighty ones of old times, the men of fame.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18252" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5480" RevisionGUID="17555fbf-2781-451d-bf43-9f7d4ac71825" CreationDate="2019-02-25T11:26:36.620" Comment="Proposed by 5835 approved by 967, 666 edit id of 1710" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18258" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5487" RevisionGUID="b2a5141d-ae7a-4690-967b-54881ef9415e" CreationDate="2019-02-25T15:53:17.507" UserId="5541" Text="I have two answer that open a bit the celebration of birth from the day of conception to the day where the pregnancy is planned (a bit earlier) and the first of every year.&#xD;&#xA;Thus I know I'm a bit away from an actual answer but allow an approach.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I came across this story in French while well *socializing* (wasting so much time on social networks). I was glad to find a reference to this in English (had lost the first post in my FB feed).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The African birth song][1]&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------&#xD;&#xA;The article I first found out was claiming like the following:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There is a tribe in Africa where the birth date of a child is counted not from when they were born, nor from when they are conceived but from the day that the child was a thought in its mother’s mind. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And when a woman decides that she will have a child, she goes off and sits under a tree, by herself, and she listens until she can hear the song of the child that wants to come. And after she’s heard the song of this child, she comes back to the man who will be the child’s father, and teaches it to him. And then, when they make love to physically conceive the child, some of that time they sing the song of the child, as a way to invite it.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And then, when the mother is pregnant, the mother teaches that child’s song to the midwives and the old women of the village, so that when the child is born, the old women and the people around her sing the child’s song to welcome it. And then, as the child grows up, the other villagers are taught the child’s song. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; If the child falls, or hurts its knee, someone picks it up and sings its song to it. Or perhaps the child does something wonderful, or goes through the rites of puberty, then as a way of honoring this person, the people of the village sing his or her song.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This seemed like a really beautiful concept, but I was sad to find out as the linked article claims that this is pure invention, that no tribe seems to do these rituals or anything looking like this (or at least need to prove their existence yet). This [comment][2] helps find the origins of this story in the writings of [Jack Kornfiel][3], A Path with Heart (Bantam Books, 1993), that seems to be inspired from  an African **FABLE**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But still, no real proof of this practice before his *testimony*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The way Korean count their age&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;If you are interested in Korean culture, you will probably know about this. The Korean have [another way to count age][4].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First on you birthday, you start by already being 1 year old.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then on each first of January, you stack up one year more, so everyone celebrate the same day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This gets us to where we can actually get close to an actual answer to your question:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you were conceived on the first of January, you would celebrate your conceiving every year at a perfect timing. This will still be only for a small portion of people though.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If what you wanted was a way to celebrate a child coming into this world on another date, these answers can match!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://aidamanduley.com/2015/03/10/the-real-origin-of-the-african-birth-song/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://aidamanduley.com/2015/03/10/the-real-origin-of-the-african-birth-song/#comment-20272&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kornfield&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://waegukin.com/korean-age-converter.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18259" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5488" RevisionGUID="6a753ad1-59ce-4dc3-a091-4e6ae5103c51" CreationDate="2019-02-25T19:30:24.733" UserId="5705" Text="I'm looking for some concepts (could be objects, weapons, creatures, traditions, ...) that are common between both Egypt and Norse mythology/folklore or history/civilization.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Context: I'm working on a prototype for a card game where Gods from Greek, Egypt, Maya or Norse mythology battle each other. There are a lot of distinct Greek, Egypt, Maya and Norse cards in the game. Now I'm trying to add some cards to the game that belong to each possible combination pair of these 4 mythologies. For example, for Greek+Norse I have &quot;The 3 Fates&quot;. For Egypt+Maya I have &quot;Death Mask&quot;. For Maya+Norse I have &quot;World Tree&quot;, etc... But I'm really struggling to find something that works for Egypt+Norse." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18260" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5488" RevisionGUID="6a753ad1-59ce-4dc3-a091-4e6ae5103c51" CreationDate="2019-02-25T19:30:24.733" UserId="5705" Text="Are there any common concepts in Egypt and Norse mythology / civilization?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18261" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5488" RevisionGUID="6a753ad1-59ce-4dc3-a091-4e6ae5103c51" CreationDate="2019-02-25T19:30:24.733" UserId="5705" Text="|norse|comparative|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18263" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5490" RevisionGUID="b2f75a03-b570-409f-ae94-c1f809f53157" CreationDate="2019-02-26T05:51:23.850" UserId="431" Text="Jordan Peterson (in &quot;Maps of Meaning&quot;, I think) associates order with masculinity and chaos with femininity but I don't think he is the original author of that trope. What is the origin?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I also notice a mild parallel between that diucotomy and Nietzche's Apollo (order/rationality) vs Dionysus (chaos/emotion). Is this a correct observation?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18264" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5490" RevisionGUID="b2f75a03-b570-409f-ae94-c1f809f53157" CreationDate="2019-02-26T05:51:23.850" UserId="431" Text="Origin of male order and female chaos trope" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18265" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5490" RevisionGUID="b2f75a03-b570-409f-ae94-c1f809f53157" CreationDate="2019-02-26T05:51:23.850" UserId="431" Text="|symbolism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18268" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="254" RevisionGUID="84a80893-93fe-4ff7-8d35-36c998b54cb4" CreationDate="2019-02-26T07:02:31.820" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="18270" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5491" RevisionGUID="24da36f4-17e2-4ea7-b814-0aa95e85b19a" CreationDate="2019-02-26T08:12:42.923" UserId="108" Text="My understanding is that this is more of an observation Peterson claims to have identified in ancient literature. **If** we suppose that this really was a recurrig theme, one can see signs of it going far into protohistory - it is a relatively common theme in creation myths, for example, to have the world to be born from chaos. And birth is of course inherently a biologically feminine activity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, [ancient Chinese mythology](https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E4%B8%89%E4%BA%94%E6%9B%86%E8%A8%98) believed that the universe began as a chao into which the giant [Pangu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pangu) was born. He then ordered the universe by pushing the heaven and earth apart, and after his death his corpse transformed into our ordered world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 天地混沌如雞子，盤古生其中 . . . 垂死化身，氣成風雲，聲為雷霆，左眼為日，右眼為月...&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Heaven and Earth was chaos like an egg, and Pangu was born within it . . .  As Pangu dies, his breath became wind and clouds, his sound became thunder, his left eye became the sun, his right eye became the moon...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Likewise, an early western example might be [Hesiod](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesiod), who is credited as one of the earliest Greek poets. He wrote in his [*Theogony*](https://wolfweb.unr.edu/homepage/dcronan/CH201/textSelections/Theogony.html) that Erebus and Nyx were born of Chaos:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Verily at the first Chaos came to be . . . From Chaos came forth Erebus and black Night, but of Night were born Aether and Day, whom she conceived and bare from union in love with Erebus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While Chaos, Erebus and Nyx (Night) are all considered primordial deities, Chaos created the latter two on its own. Nyx and Erebus were relatively more concrete personifications as indicated by their creation of further children together &quot;from union in love&quot;. So one can view this as a progression from chaos to regular world order.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, I wouldn't put that much stock in Peterson's claim. See for example the Egyptian goddess, [Maat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maat), the divine personification of order.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18271" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5490" RevisionGUID="043276ad-db9f-4613-a02c-88d332f0b5cf" CreationDate="2019-02-26T08:13:38.310" UserId="108" Comment="edited title" Text="What is the origin of the male order and female chaos trope?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18272" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5491" RevisionGUID="dc8f9eb0-b613-4492-9779-d0388bfd2d18" CreationDate="2019-02-26T08:19:14.460" UserId="108" Comment="added 73 characters in body" Text="My understanding is that this is more of an observation Peterson claims to have identified in ancient literature. I'm not really sure how much of a trope it really is, but **if** we suppose that this really was a recurring theme, one can see signs of it going far into protohistory. It is a relatively common theme in creation myths, for instance, to have the world to be born from chaos, birth is of course inherently a biologically female activity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, [ancient Chinese mythology](https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E4%B8%89%E4%BA%94%E6%9B%86%E8%A8%98) believed that the universe began as a chao into which the giant [Pangu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pangu) was born. He then ordered the universe by pushing the heaven and earth apart, and after his death his corpse transformed into our ordered world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 天地混沌如雞子，盤古生其中 . . . 垂死化身，氣成風雲，聲為雷霆，左眼為日，右眼為月...&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Heaven and Earth was chaos like an egg, and Pangu was born within it . . .  As Pangu dies, his breath became wind and clouds, his sound became thunder, his left eye became the sun, his right eye became the moon...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Likewise, an early western example might be [Hesiod](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesiod), who is credited as one of the earliest Greek poets. He wrote in his [*Theogony*](https://wolfweb.unr.edu/homepage/dcronan/CH201/textSelections/Theogony.html) that Erebus and Nyx were born of Chaos:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Verily at the first Chaos came to be . . . From Chaos came forth Erebus and black Night, but of Night were born Aether and Day, whom she conceived and bare from union in love with Erebus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While Chaos, Erebus and Nyx (Night) are all considered primordial deities, Chaos created the latter two on its own. Nyx and Erebus were relatively more concrete personifications as indicated by their creation of further children together &quot;from union in love&quot;. So one can view this as a progression from chaos to a more structured order.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, again, I'm not sure I would put that much stock in Peterson's claims. See for example the Egyptian goddess, [Maat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maat), the divine personification of order.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18273" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5461" RevisionGUID="bace622d-7a45-4611-ad77-a0742164b507" CreationDate="2019-02-26T09:47:55.673" UserId="5726" Comment="Added links" Text="This question may be a little controversial so try to keep your answers as academically as possible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am familiar with the fact that this happened in pretty much every mythology, but Greek mythology seems to use it a lot. And i was wondering if there was a special reason for this behaviour apart from being the go-to deed for the writers of antiquity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While reading up on some Greek myths i started to notice a recurring pattern in the case of the act of rape.&#xD;&#xA;Is there a reason for the writers in (most) mythologies to resort to rape? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is rape featured so prominently and what is the (if any) hidden meaning behind the rapes? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is the list of rape victims as defined by Wikipedia&#xD;&#xA;[list 1][1]. [list 2][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Aethra][3] (mother of [Theseus][4]); was raped by [Poseidon][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Antiope][6]; raped by [Zeus][7].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Apemosyne][8]; raped by [Hermes][9]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Callisto][10]; raped by [Zeus][7].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Cassandra][11]; raped by [Ajax the Lesser][12], and later forced into [concubinage][13] by [Ἀgamémnōn][14].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Chrysippus][15]; raped by his tutor [Laius][16].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Demeter][17]; according to an [Arcadian myth][18], [Demeter][17] was being pursued by [Poseidon][5] and she changed into a horse to escape him. [Poseidon][5], however, transformed himself into a horse and, after cornering [Demeter][17], raped her, resulting in her giving birth to [Despoina][19], a maiden goddess, and [Arion][20], a divine horse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Europa][21]; raped by [Zeus][7] after he abducted her in the form of a bull.(as seen on the Greek €2 coin)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ganymede][22], son of [Tros of Dardania][23]; taken up to [Mount Olympus][24] by [Zeus][7] in the form of an eagle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Leda][25], raped by [Zeus][7] in the form of a swan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The daughters of [Leucippus][26], [Phoebe][27] and [Hilaeira][28], were abducted, raped and later married by [Castor and Pollux][29]. In return, [Idas][30] and [Lynceus][31], nephews of [Leucippus][26] and rival suitors, killed [Castor][29]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Medusa][32]; raped by [Poseidon][5] in Athena's temple&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Odysseus][33]; raped by [Calypso][34] on the island of [Ogygia][35] [in his seven year stay][36]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Persephone][37]; raped by [Hades][38] and, in some versions, raped by her father, [Zeus][7].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Philomela][39]; raped by her brother-in-law [Tereus][40]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rape_victims_from_ancient_history_and_mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mythological_rape_victims&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aethra_(mother_of_Theseus)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theseus&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poseidon&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiope_of_Thebes&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apemosyne&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callisto_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassandra&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_the_Lesser&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concubinage&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agamemnon&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysippus_of_Elis&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laius&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demeter&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/Despoine.html&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Despoina&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arion&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(consort_of_Zeus)&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganymede_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tros_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Olympus&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leda_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leucippus_of_Messenia&#xD;&#xA;  [27]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebe_of_Messenia&#xD;&#xA;  [28]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilaeira&#xD;&#xA;  [29]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castor_and_Pollux&#xD;&#xA;  [30]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idas&#xD;&#xA;  [31]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynceus_of_Argos&#xD;&#xA;  [32]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medusa&#xD;&#xA;  [33]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odysseus&#xD;&#xA;  [34]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calypso_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [35]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogygia&#xD;&#xA;  [36]: https://www.greekmyths-greekmythology.com/calypso-odysseus-greek-myth/&#xD;&#xA;  [37]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persephone&#xD;&#xA;  [38]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades&#xD;&#xA;  [39]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philomela&#xD;&#xA;  [40]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tereus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18274" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5461" RevisionGUID="bace622d-7a45-4611-ad77-a0742164b507" CreationDate="2019-02-26T09:47:55.673" UserId="5726" Comment="Added links" Text="|greek|zeus|interpretation|poseidon|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18275" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5461" RevisionGUID="7d112dde-2a9f-48c8-82b2-4ad159993c9e" CreationDate="2019-02-26T09:59:13.980" UserId="5726" Comment="added 63 characters in body" Text="This question may be a little controversial so try to keep your answers as **academically** as possible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**If on the subject general answers are also accepted**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am familiar with the fact that this happened in pretty much every mythology, but Greek mythology seems to use it a lot. And i was wondering if there was a special reason for this behaviour apart from being the go-to deed for the writers of antiquity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While reading up on some Greek myths i started to notice a recurring pattern in the case of the act of rape.&#xD;&#xA;Is there a reason for the writers in (most) mythologies to resort to rape? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is rape featured so prominently and what is the (if any) hidden meaning behind the rapes? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is the list of rape victims as defined by Wikipedia&#xD;&#xA;[list 1][1]. [list 2][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Aethra][3] (mother of [Theseus][4]); was raped by [Poseidon][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Antiope][6]; raped by [Zeus][7].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Apemosyne][8]; raped by [Hermes][9]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Callisto][10]; raped by [Zeus][7].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Cassandra][11]; raped by [Ajax the Lesser][12], and later forced into [concubinage][13] by [Ἀgamémnōn][14].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Chrysippus][15]; raped by his tutor [Laius][16].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Demeter][17]; according to an [Arcadian myth][18], [Demeter][17] was being pursued by [Poseidon][5] and she changed into a horse to escape him. [Poseidon][5], however, transformed himself into a horse and, after cornering [Demeter][17], raped her, resulting in her giving birth to [Despoina][19], a maiden goddess, and [Arion][20], a divine horse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Europa][21]; raped by [Zeus][7] after he abducted her in the form of a bull.(as seen on the Greek €2 coin)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ganymede][22], son of [Tros of Dardania][23]; taken up to [Mount Olympus][24] by [Zeus][7] in the form of an eagle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Leda][25], raped by [Zeus][7] in the form of a swan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The daughters of [Leucippus][26], [Phoebe][27] and [Hilaeira][28], were abducted, raped and later married by [Castor and Pollux][29]. In return, [Idas][30] and [Lynceus][31], nephews of [Leucippus][26] and rival suitors, killed [Castor][29]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Medusa][32]; raped by [Poseidon][5] in Athena's temple&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Odysseus][33]; raped by [Calypso][34] on the island of [Ogygia][35] [in his seven year stay][36]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Persephone][37]; raped by [Hades][38] and, in some versions, raped by her father, [Zeus][7].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Philomela][39]; raped by her brother-in-law [Tereus][40]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rape_victims_from_ancient_history_and_mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mythological_rape_victims&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aethra_(mother_of_Theseus)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theseus&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poseidon&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiope_of_Thebes&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apemosyne&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callisto_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassandra&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_the_Lesser&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concubinage&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agamemnon&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysippus_of_Elis&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laius&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demeter&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/Despoine.html&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Despoina&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arion&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(consort_of_Zeus)&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganymede_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tros_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Olympus&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leda_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leucippus_of_Messenia&#xD;&#xA;  [27]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebe_of_Messenia&#xD;&#xA;  [28]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilaeira&#xD;&#xA;  [29]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castor_and_Pollux&#xD;&#xA;  [30]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idas&#xD;&#xA;  [31]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynceus_of_Argos&#xD;&#xA;  [32]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medusa&#xD;&#xA;  [33]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odysseus&#xD;&#xA;  [34]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calypso_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [35]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogygia&#xD;&#xA;  [36]: https://www.greekmyths-greekmythology.com/calypso-odysseus-greek-myth/&#xD;&#xA;  [37]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persephone&#xD;&#xA;  [38]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades&#xD;&#xA;  [39]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philomela&#xD;&#xA;  [40]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tereus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18277" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5492" RevisionGUID="3787d910-4e9b-438e-befc-54698c221760" CreationDate="2019-02-26T13:38:48.183" UserId="5846" Text="I'm looking for creatures that are mostly known for either acting very carefully planned or for providing well thought out plans to others. Specifically creatures that are demonic or otherwise of a more evil/dark tone." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18278" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5492" RevisionGUID="3787d910-4e9b-438e-befc-54698c221760" CreationDate="2019-02-26T13:38:48.183" UserId="5846" Text="Looking for mythological creatures known for excessive planning - demonic or evil favored" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18279" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5492" RevisionGUID="3787d910-4e9b-438e-befc-54698c221760" CreationDate="2019-02-26T13:38:48.183" UserId="5846" Text="|mythical-creatures|ghosts|demons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18280" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5486" RevisionGUID="4c788806-be26-432b-86d8-a7ff1b7b6e02" CreationDate="2019-02-27T06:55:52.863" UserId="-1" Comment="More descriptive title." Text="Is there a culture that celebrates day of birth, day of conception?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18281" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5486" RevisionGUID="4c788806-be26-432b-86d8-a7ff1b7b6e02" CreationDate="2019-02-27T06:55:52.863" Comment="Proposed by anonymous approved by 108 edit id of 1713" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18282" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5492" RevisionGUID="a9a97703-f116-45d7-a234-3eb872360f2a" CreationDate="2019-02-27T06:55:56.060" UserId="5541" Comment="Added one tag and shortened the title" Text="Creatures known for excessive planning - demonic or evil favored" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18283" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5492" RevisionGUID="a9a97703-f116-45d7-a234-3eb872360f2a" CreationDate="2019-02-27T06:55:56.060" UserId="5541" Comment="Added one tag and shortened the title" Text="|myth-identification|mythical-creatures|ghosts|demons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18284" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5492" RevisionGUID="a9a97703-f116-45d7-a234-3eb872360f2a" CreationDate="2019-02-27T06:55:56.060" Comment="Proposed by 5541 approved by 108 edit id of 1712" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18285" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5493" RevisionGUID="4348d194-23b6-4960-ad26-6a33a6344580" CreationDate="2019-02-27T09:04:55.187" UserId="5849" Text="Satan is described as being serpent looking - therefornhe must be a seraph. At least part seraph" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18286" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5493" RevisionGUID="927bbb3a-0415-4fe6-a680-144a55e98658" CreationDate="2019-02-27T09:18:55.937" UserId="57" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="Satan is described as being serpent looking - therefore he must be a seraph. At least part seraph." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18287" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5451" RevisionGUID="d79926e2-b8c0-4818-8fa4-7da4983ca1c4" CreationDate="2019-02-27T09:22:29.527" UserId="5726" Comment="added 938 characters in body" Text="Red hair was a sign of witchcraft in Christian Europe and it's said that it was often seen as a marker of guilt in the eyes of witch finders.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many examples of redheads being stereotyped as untrustworthy in medieval times. The &quot;Proverbs of Alfred&quot; **warn not to choose a red-haired person as a friend** and the &quot;Secretum Secretorum&quot; **warns against using redheads as advisors.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    Kemble notes that similar warnings against short, &#xD;&#xA;    tall, and red men occur in German and medieval Latin. He observes : — &#xD;&#xA;    ' The faithlessness of red-haired men is known to have been a widely &#xD;&#xA;    prevailing belief, and to have passed into the proverbs of many European &#xD;&#xA;    countries : Judas, ' in the painted cloth,' has red hair, allusions to &#xD;&#xA;    which in the works of all our old dramatic writers are far too numerous &#xD;&#xA;    to require specific reference.' There is, however, only one such reference &#xD;&#xA;    in Shakespeare; in As You Like It, iii. 4. 9. See D. ii. 264, 265. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[full text][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The author Ruth Mellinkoff, in her excellent book, &quot;[Outcasts][2],&quot; commented upon this prejudice, believing it to be a product of red hair's minority status in society.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Red hair, a red beard, and ruddy skin - separately or combined - have been considered suspect, impure, and dangerous because they did not meet the standards of the normal. That is essential to keep in mind is that they are minority features in all racial and ethnic groups, *even among the Irish*, who are widely thought to have more redheads.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She also relates an early example of Christian condemnation of red hair, quoting from a letter from St. Jerome which gave advice on raising daughters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*&quot;Do not dye her hair red and thereby presage for her the fires of hell.&quot;*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[letters from Jerome][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The medieval mind also attributed magical properties to the bodily fluids of redheads. For example, it was believed that the fat from a red-haired man could be used to make poison. Likewise, Theophilus Presbyter stated that the blood of a red-haired man was needed to turn copper into gold. The urine from red-haired boys was also used to make the paint for stained glass windows.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Theophili, de diversis P267][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://archive.org/stream/proverbsalfred00skeagoog/proverbsalfred00skeagoog_djvu.txt&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.nl/books/about/Outcasts_Text.html?id=01LUWw4A7CgC&amp;redir_esc=y&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3001107.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://books.google.nl/books?id=wo4EAAAAYAAJ&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;q=blood&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18288" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5494" RevisionGUID="096f9079-4cf9-48b5-bdb1-0d22b06e1e90" CreationDate="2019-02-27T12:32:57.187" UserId="57" Text="According to Hesiod, Cronus swallowed his children because he learned &quot;he was destined to be overcome by his own son&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These great Cronos swallowed as each came forth from the womb to his mother's knees with this intent, that no other of the proud sons of Heaven should hold the kingly office amongst the deathless gods. For he learned from Earth and starry Heaven that he was destined to be overcome by his own son, strong though he was, through the contriving of great Zeus. Therefore he kept no blind outlook, but watched and swallowed down his children: and unceasing grief seized Rhea. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Hesiod. The Homeric Hymns and Homerica with an English Translation by Hugh G. Evelyn-White. Theogony. Cambridge, MA.,Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1914.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, Cronus didn't only swallow Hades, Poseidon and Zeus; he also swallowed his daughters, Hestia, Demeter and Hera. Why? Is there, perhaps, a version of the myth that allows for the possibility that a female child will overthrow Cronus?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18289" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5494" RevisionGUID="096f9079-4cf9-48b5-bdb1-0d22b06e1e90" CreationDate="2019-02-27T12:32:57.187" UserId="57" Text="Why did Cronus swallow his daughters?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18290" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5494" RevisionGUID="096f9079-4cf9-48b5-bdb1-0d22b06e1e90" CreationDate="2019-02-27T12:32:57.187" UserId="57" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18291" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5494" RevisionGUID="955e10bf-d732-4038-ab5a-906d6ec7523f" CreationDate="2019-02-27T13:46:31.983" UserId="57" Comment="added 3 characters in body" Text="According to Hesiod, Cronus swallowed his children because he learned &quot;he was destined to be overcome by his own son&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These great Cronos swallowed as each came forth from the womb to his mother's knees with this intent, that no other of the proud sons of Heaven should hold the kingly office amongst the deathless gods. For he learned from Earth and starry Heaven that he was destined to be overcome by his own son, strong though he was, through the contriving of great Zeus. Therefore he kept no blind outlook, but watched and swallowed down his children: and unceasing grief seized Rhea. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Hesiod. The Homeric Hymns and Homerica with an English Translation by Hugh G. Evelyn-White. Theogony. Cambridge, MA.,Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1914.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, Cronus didn't only swallow his sons Hades and Poseidon; he also swallowed his daughters, Hestia, Demeter and Hera. Why? Is there, perhaps, a version of the myth that allows for the possibility that a female child will overthrow Cronus?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18292" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5127" RevisionGUID="b642db87-b837-4c47-be8b-dc823039306c" CreationDate="2019-02-27T14:37:24.160" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="I have heard that redheads were thought to be vampires, or Judas's descendants, good for spell ingredients, etc...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What were common myths these about redheads in the medieval period of Europe (300 AD - 1600 AD)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18293" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5127" RevisionGUID="b642db87-b837-4c47-be8b-dc823039306c" CreationDate="2019-02-27T14:37:24.160" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="What were medieval European myths about redheads?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18294" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5127" RevisionGUID="b642db87-b837-4c47-be8b-dc823039306c" CreationDate="2019-02-27T14:37:24.160" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|myth-identification|european-folklore|medieval-europe|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18295" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5495" RevisionGUID="41bb0368-f308-4469-b4ce-faaf69e74e75" CreationDate="2019-02-27T14:38:48.497" UserId="4761" Text="The point is that Kronus didn't bother to look at the child, he simply swallowed whatever was presented to him. Hence why he was fooled by a rock." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18296" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5451" RevisionGUID="631ce517-5a0a-4843-97c2-845550165faf" CreationDate="2019-02-27T14:39:06.260" UserId="57" Comment="blockquote formatting for the quotes" Text="Red hair was a sign of witchcraft in Christian Europe and it's said that it was often seen as a marker of guilt in the eyes of witch finders.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many examples of redheads being stereotyped as untrustworthy in medieval times. The &quot;Proverbs of Alfred&quot; **warn not to choose a red-haired person as a friend** and the &quot;Secretum Secretorum&quot; **warns against using redheads as advisors.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kemble notes that similar warnings against short,  &#xD;&#xA;tall, and red men occur in German and medieval Latin. He observes : —  &#xD;&#xA;' The faithlessness of red-haired men is known to have been a widely  &#xD;&#xA;prevailing belief, and to have passed into the proverbs of many European  &#xD;&#xA;countries : Judas, ' in the painted cloth,' has red hair, allusions to  &#xD;&#xA;which in the works of all our old dramatic writers are far too numerous  &#xD;&#xA;to require specific reference.' There is, however, only one such reference  &#xD;&#xA;in Shakespeare; in As You Like It, iii. 4. 9. See D. ii. 264, 265.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[full text][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The author Ruth Mellinkoff, in her excellent book, &quot;[Outcasts][2],&quot; commented upon this prejudice, believing it to be a product of red hair's minority status in society.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Red hair, a red beard, and ruddy skin - separately or combined - have been considered suspect, impure, and dangerous because they did not meet the standards of the normal. That is essential to keep in mind is that they are minority features in all racial and ethnic groups, *even among the Irish*, who are widely thought to have more redheads.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She also relates an early example of Christian condemnation of red hair, quoting from a letter from St. Jerome which gave advice on raising daughters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Do not dye her hair red and thereby presage for her the fires of hell.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[letters from Jerome][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The medieval mind also attributed magical properties to the bodily fluids of redheads. For example, it was believed that the fat from a red-haired man could be used to make poison. Likewise, Theophilus Presbyter stated that the blood of a red-haired man was needed to turn copper into gold. The urine from red-haired boys was also used to make the paint for stained glass windows.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Theophili, de diversis P267][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://archive.org/stream/proverbsalfred00skeagoog/proverbsalfred00skeagoog_djvu.txt&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.nl/books/about/Outcasts_Text.html?id=01LUWw4A7CgC&amp;redir_esc=y&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3001107.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://books.google.nl/books?id=wo4EAAAAYAAJ&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;q=blood&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18297" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5496" RevisionGUID="b04836b7-f7f1-4b5c-9ffe-12d737bf03f7" CreationDate="2019-02-27T17:43:18.473" UserDisplayName="user5835" Text="The Bible say:-&#xD;&#xA;[] Added&#xD;&#xA;&gt;NWT Ezekiel 28:16, 17 &quot;So I [God] will cast you [Satan] out as profane from the mountain of God and destroy you, ***O covering cherub***, away from the stones of fire. 17 Your heart became haughty because of your beauty. You corrupted your wisdom because of your own glorious splendor.. . .&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18299" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5251" RevisionGUID="d54d8aa3-70e5-49fb-ae93-c178b166765c" CreationDate="2019-02-27T20:19:06.320" UserId="2892" Comment="added 229 characters in body" Text="Zeus, his siblings, and his allies overthrew his father Kronos, who had eaten his siblings in an attempt to thwart the prophecy which said that one of his children would overthrow him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When all was said and done, Zeus and his brothers Poseidon and Hades drew lots or threw dice or executed some other game of chance to see who would rule what part of the world. Zeus won, making him king. He chose the sky to rule. Poseidon was second, and chose the sea; Hades, getting the leftovers, was given the underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Zeus.html&quot;&gt;Theoi's article on Zeus,&lt;/a&gt; which attributes the myth to Homer's [*Iliad* xv. 187][1], &amp;c., i. 528, ii. 111; and Virgil's [*Aeneid* iv. 372][2]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D15%3Acard%3D184&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0052%3Abook%3D4%3Acard%3D362" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18300" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3304" RevisionGUID="8e72bbdb-1bc5-4b00-b2ae-a101efdf2d39" CreationDate="2019-02-27T23:02:00.400" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="18301" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5498" RevisionGUID="3ec30dff-af30-4ab5-84d4-da4a13ed55e0" CreationDate="2019-02-27T23:33:29.613" UserId="4171" Text="I'm looking for mythological examples of loss leading to intense emotional and symbolic displays of grief, whether spontaneous, performative, ritual or some combination of the above. That is, grief so intense that it inspires madness, self-destruction, revenge, or deep penance, any kind of charged and meaningful display, of the sort that within which the participants act as if to say 'look at us now, just look at how terrible our sorrow is'. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As clarifying examples: Isis gathering the body parts of Osiris would not count for this, because while the story both touching and symbolic, I've never read a version where the emotional display of grief itself was brought to the forefront. Conversely, Gilgamesh's grief for Enkidu, the ending of Beowulf, or almost anything in the Illiad, are all excellent examples of what I'm looking for.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks for your time. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18302" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5498" RevisionGUID="3ec30dff-af30-4ab5-84d4-da4a13ed55e0" CreationDate="2019-02-27T23:33:29.613" UserId="4171" Text="What are some mythological examples of emotionally-charged symbolic acts of grief?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18303" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5498" RevisionGUID="3ec30dff-af30-4ab5-84d4-da4a13ed55e0" CreationDate="2019-02-27T23:33:29.613" UserId="4171" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18304" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5498" RevisionGUID="d5103c45-6bd9-4bfb-a61e-b82d31059d3e" CreationDate="2019-02-27T23:41:48.527" UserId="4171" Comment="added 197 characters in body" Text="I'm looking for mythological examples of loss leading to intense emotional and symbolic displays of grief, whether spontaneous, performative, ritual or some combination of the above. That is, grief so intense that it inspires madness, self-destruction, revenge, or deep penance, any kind of charged and meaningful display, of the sort that within which the participants act as if to say 'look at us now, just look at how terrible our sorrow is'. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As clarifying examples: Isis gathering the body parts of Osiris would not count for this, because while the story both touching and symbolic, I've never read a version where the emotional display of grief itself was brought to the forefront. Conversely, Gilgamesh's grief for Enkidu, the ending of Beowulf, or almost anything in the Illiad, are all excellent examples of what I'm looking for. Loss in this question mostly refers to the loss of a person, but that can be bent to refer to a nation, reputation, treasure, or hopeful-for-future, etc. if the example of grief is strong enough. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks for your time. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18305" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5498" RevisionGUID="7e5be943-783f-4eb9-b31d-dd8e13ca98b7" CreationDate="2019-02-27T23:56:16.353" UserId="4171" Comment="edited body" Text="I'm looking for mythological examples of loss leading to intense emotional and symbolic displays of grief, whether spontaneous, performative, ritual or some combination of the above. That is, grief so intense that it inspires madness, self-destruction, revenge, or deep penance, any kind of charged and meaningful display, of the sort that within which the participants act as if to say 'look at us now, just look at how terrible our sorrow is'. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As clarifying examples: Isis gathering the body parts of Osiris would not count for this, because while the story both touching and symbolic, I've never read a version where the emotional display of grief itself was brought to the forefront. Conversely, Gilgamesh's grief for Enkidu, the ending of Beowulf, or almost anything in the Illiad, are all excellent examples of what I'm looking for. Loss in this question mostly refers to the loss of a person, but that can be bent to refer to a nation, reputation, treasure, or a hoped-for-future, etc. if the example of grief is strong enough. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks for your time. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18308" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5499" RevisionGUID="7ce021dc-5244-4fcf-97da-b57dce7536c8" CreationDate="2019-02-28T04:56:51.763" UserId="3291" Text="Hermes is a name with a few similar sounding words, all of which (that I'm aware of) are related to traits of Hermes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Hermeticism][1]: a spiritual tradition based on Hermes as corresponding with Egyptian Thoth, associated with magic, writing, intellect, language's roots, and more. Etymology traces this to Latin hermeticus, derived from the name of the Greek god Hermes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Hermeneutics][2]: an art and science of deep interpretation, especially of sacred texts. Etymology traces this to Greek ἑρμηνεύς (hermeneus, &quot;translator, interpreter&quot;), which is of unknown origin, but a folk etymology for hermeneutics associates it with Hermes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Hermetic seal][3]: Wikipedia's page on Hermeticism notes &quot;Hermes Trimegistus supposedly invented the process of making a glass tube airtight (a process in alchemy) using a secret seal. Hence, the term &quot;completely sealed&quot; is implied in &quot;hermetically sealed&quot; and the term &quot;hermetic&quot; is also equivalent to &quot;occult&quot; or hidden.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Hermit][4] and hermitage: a life setting (physical, emotional, or both) based on isolation from other humans, originating from &quot;the Greek ἐρημίτης (erēmitēs), &quot;of the desert&quot;, which in turn comes from ἔρημος (erēmos), signifying &quot;desert&quot;, &quot;uninhabited&quot;, hence &quot;desert-dweller&quot;; adjective: &quot;eremitic&quot;.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hermit seems to be the only word sounding like Hermes but not etymologically linked to Hermes. Is there a clear link, historic or otherwise, between hermit and Hermes?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For what it's worth, the Greek for &quot;interpretation&quot; and for &quot;of the desert&quot; are quite similar, sharing their beginning but differing in their middle and end:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    ἑρμηνεύς - hermeneus - interpretation&#xD;&#xA;    ἐρημίτης - erēmitēs - of the desert&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeticism#Etymology&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutics#Etymology&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermetic_seal#Etymology&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermit#Etymology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18309" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5499" RevisionGUID="7ce021dc-5244-4fcf-97da-b57dce7536c8" CreationDate="2019-02-28T04:56:51.763" UserId="3291" Text="What is the relationship between the term 'hermit' and the traditions around Hermes and Hermeticism?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18310" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5499" RevisionGUID="7ce021dc-5244-4fcf-97da-b57dce7536c8" CreationDate="2019-02-28T04:56:51.763" UserId="3291" Text="|etymology|hermes|hermeticism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18311" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5500" RevisionGUID="95a276a2-483a-4926-96a5-525e4d75037b" CreationDate="2019-02-28T17:55:33.553" UserId="2892" Text="There are many answers, but here I'll focus on one of the most famous, [the Pietà][1].  This concept underlies the Jesus story and Christianity thought, in general, reflecting both divine mercy, and the mercy of humans.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yeats wrote:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In pity for man's darkening thought &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;He walked the room and issued thence &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In Galilean turbulence; &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The Babylonian starlight brought &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;A fabulous, formless darkness in; &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Odour of blood when Christ was slain &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Made all Platonic tolerance vain &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And vain all Doric discipline.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Resurrection (1931)][2]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here the poet seems to be saying that dispassionate philosophy breaks down in the face of human agony.  The passion of the Christ, or, of any human *[in extremis][3]*.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This notion, as you note, goes back to at least Gilgamesh, but it was very robustly explicated in Greek Drama, often in the context of the Trojan war.  Why Greek Drama specifically?  [Catharsis][4], which is a purgative feeling of pity and dread.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The popular show [Westworld][5] posits that it our suffering that makes us human.  T.S. Eliot suggests it is even a condition of redemption:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The chill ascends from feet to knees, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The fever sings in mental wires. &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;If to be warmed, then I must freeze &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And quake in frigid purgatorial fires &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Of which the flame is roses, and the smoke is briars.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[East Coker, IV][6]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roses here represent love, and the briars the pain that comes with it, here specifically in reference to Christ's crown of thorns. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is interesting about the Pietà is that it's not a huge, dramatic show of grief, but quite, and personal, and human.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][7]][7]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piet%C3%A0&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.scribd.com/doc/75962581/The-Resurrection-W-B-Yeats&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/in_extremis&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharsis&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://quotecatalog.com/quote/lisa-joy-im-afraid-in-o-4an2yYa/&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.coldbacon.com/poems/fq.html&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/NAsUC.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18312" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5500" RevisionGUID="4c214205-d282-4ce2-926c-b61c346aa0d6" CreationDate="2019-02-28T18:12:27.857" UserId="2892" Comment="added 240 characters in body" Text="There are many answers, but here I'll focus on one of the most famous, [the Pietà][1].  This concept underlies the Jesus story and Christianity thought, in general, reflecting both divine mercy, and the mercy of humans.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yeats wrote:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In pity for man's darkening thought &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;He walked the room and issued thence &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In Galilean turbulence; &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The Babylonian starlight brought &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;A fabulous, formless darkness in; &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Odour of blood when Christ was slain &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Made all Platonic tolerance vain &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And vain all Doric discipline.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Resurrection (1931)][2]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here the poet seems to be saying that dispassionate philosophy breaks down in the face of human agony.  The passion of the Christ, or, of any human *[in extremis][3]*.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This notion, as you note, goes back to at least Gilgamesh, but it was very robustly explicated in Greek Drama, often in the context of the Trojan war.  Why Greek Drama specifically?  [Catharsis][4], which is a purgative feeling of pity and dread.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The popular show [Westworld][5] posits that it our suffering that makes us human.  T.S. Eliot suggests it is even a condition of redemption:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The chill ascends from feet to knees, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The fever sings in mental wires. &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;If to be warmed, then I must freeze &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And quake in frigid purgatorial fires &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Of which the flame is roses, and the smoke is briars.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[East Coker, IV][6]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roses here represent love, and the briars the pain that comes with it, here specifically in reference to Christ's crown of thorns. Eliot is indicating that passion is a combination of love and agony, and that it can apply both to romantic love ([eros][7]) and to divine love ([agape][8]).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is notable about the Pietà is that it's not a huge, dramatic show of grief, but quiet and personal and human.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][9]][9]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piet%C3%A0&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.scribd.com/doc/75962581/The-Resurrection-W-B-Yeats&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/in_extremis&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharsis&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://quotecatalog.com/quote/lisa-joy-im-afraid-in-o-4an2yYa/&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.coldbacon.com/poems/fq.html&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eros&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agape&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/NAsUC.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18313" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5501" RevisionGUID="43adc61b-2f2d-4b37-83cd-f450394202de" CreationDate="2019-02-28T18:16:24.133" UserId="2892" Text="In Greek Mythology, Zeus is said to have fallen in love with [Ganymede][1], a [kouros][2], per his beauty.  Zeus abducts him to serve as his cup bearer in Olympus.  The story has strong homosexual implications, but no one judged Zeus over it, which indicates there was no stigma.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganymede_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kouros" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18314" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5473" RevisionGUID="5c96a157-73c0-4b2d-9849-f4d88a0b109d" CreationDate="2019-02-28T18:30:06.707" UserId="2892" Comment="added 619 characters in body" Text="Preface: This subject is complicated by changing social standards.  [Forced marriage][1] has been routinely practiced around the world into the contemporary era, depending on the society. (This is a major theme of Game of Thrones, as is the condition of women in pre-modern societies in general.) [The Rape of the Sabine Women][2] can provide some context. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**I see three main reasons, lurid appeal, ritual, and humanism.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mythology and folklore serve many functions.  They are form of entertainment (appeal), a commemoration of religious events (ritual), and, in the case of the [Classical period][3] in Greece, it is one of the vehicles for the birth of humanism. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **Lurid Appeal**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This rationale is easy.  &quot;[Sex sells][4]&quot;, and violence as well.  You find everywhere from the very earliest myths to contemporary media.  ([Gilgamesh][5] starts out with a prostitute and a fist fight.  The [Osiris][6] myth involves murder, dismemberment, and necrophilia.)  Rape combines the two (see: &quot;[sexual violence][7]&quot;) and provides a titillation.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Storytellers have to support themselves and to do that they need to hold the attention of an audience. One of the central rules of fiction is high stakes = high audience engagement. The more transgressive the better. (*Kill Bill* and *The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo* are contemporary exemplars, and both can be seen as forms of [Philomel][8], which was a female-centered revenge story involving rape.)  Rape is widely used in modern entertainment as a pretext for revenge, so this phenomenon is in no way restricted to Greek mythology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Ritual**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Burkert][9], [Eliade][10], and [Frazer][11] have written extensively on this subject.  At a very high level, there is archeological evidence of human sacrifice in ancient Europe and other ancient cultures.  Human sacrifice is a central element of several of Euripides' plays, but by the time of Euripides, these sacrifices of legend have been ritualized in the form of drama.  (The [Festivals of Dionysus][12] were religious festivals, and the play [The Bacchae][13] is, at its core, a commemoration of the [death of the god][14].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is an original religious function to mythology. It covers everything from the creation of the universe to the acts of the gods.  In the case of the Greek gods, these acts are often lurid. The behavior of the gods is commemorated in stories, rituals (re-enactments), and in the acts of humans. Cronus swallows his own children, as do [Tereus][15] and [Thyestes][16]. Just as [Cronus overthrows Ouranos, Zeus overthrows Cronus][17].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Persephone, in the ancient context especially, is a coming-of-age story.  Her abduction and forced marriage to Hades explain the cycle of life and the seasons. It's also symbolic of death and rebirth.  [See: [Kore &amp; Persephone][18]]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Persephone's is a central myth, explaining winter, and the Kore is an archetype--in some sense, her story is the story of almost all women. Abductions and forced marriage in Greek myth may be reflections of her story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There also the factor that Zeus is a serial rapist and so it's not surprising rape becomes a staple of Greek Mythology.  A key difference is that what is permissible for the gods is not necessarily permissible for man--Zeus marries his own sister.  So human rapists in Greek mythology are generally villains (Tereus and Thyestes) and, unlike the gods, typically come to bad ends, even in the case of the hero [little Ajax][19].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his [Agamemnon][20], Aeschylus makes the king's concubinage of Cassandra Clytaemestra's main motivation for killing her husband (jealousy and fear of being supplanted).  Although Aeschylus was quite sympathetic to Agamemnon, Euripides is significantly less so, citing Agamemnon's murder of her infant from her previous marriage, and sacrifice of their daughter, [Iphigenia, at Aulis][21], the core motivations, which leads to the next element: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Humanism**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The humanism wiki doesn't give the full story because the undermining of divine authority begins with works like the Iliad, which has many functions, including subversive.  In this great poem the dignity of the gods is undermined while the dignity of man is elevated through Achilles and Hector.  It also evokes tremendous pity, for Hector in particular--the poem, which begins with the &quot;rage of Achilles&quot;, ends with &quot;the funeral of Hector, the breaker of horses.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unlike the storytellers, thinkers like Plato used mythology to explicate philosophical inquiry.  (In the sense of the Iliad as a subversive text, Zeus may be said to not have escaped the [prophecy on Thetis][22] in being ultimately diminished by her son, ironically in a rare case where he forgoes having sex;)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Catharsis][23] (pity and dread) was a central element of Greek Drama. These plays rarely commemorate the travails of the gods, instead celebrating the ordeals of humans.  In the Bacchae, it is [Pentheus][24] who serves as [tanist][25] for Dionysus.  Aeschylus writes of the sufferings of Prometheus in service of mankind, but also writes of the trials, and vindication, of Orestes.  Sophocles most famous heroine is [Antigone][26], who dies in service of a principle.  Euripides can be viewed as strongly feminist, through plays such as [Hecuba][27], The [Trojan Women][28], and [Iphigenia at Aulis][29].  (Humanism is rooted in the agency of humans, and feminism in the agency of women, both central elements of Greek Drama.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An aspect of Shakespeare that makes the works such standouts is the creation of multi-dimensional female characters, whether villains or heroines. So with Euripides. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like [The Rape of Lucrece][30], Ovid's account of [Philomela][31] evokes tremendous pity. Empathy is a key to seeing the [other][32] as human. [Andromache][33] is play about Hector's wife, and her life as slave, after the fall of Troy.  It can argued that by creating strong, believable female characters, and in generating sympathy for their travails, authors like Euripides, Ovid and Shakespeare put a spotlight on the condition and plight of women.  In an indirect sense, this supports the idea of women's rights.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;**Political Uses**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There can also be a political component, as in the myth of [Lucrece][34], which casts her abuser, Tarquin, as a tyrant to be overthrown. This is the rationale for the establishment of the Roman Republic. Exploring the meaning of the Latin *[răpĭo][35]*, rooted in abduction and seizure by force, women, as prizes of war, were &quot;[booty][36]&quot; in both senses of the word.  The abduction of Helen is the *pretext* for the Trojan War, but, if there was such a war, it was surely fought over the trade route connecting Asia &amp; Europe and the [Euxine][37] &amp; [Aegean][38]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;Notes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rape, in the modern conception, seems, in pre-modern times, only considered transgressive in regard to wives and daughters specifically in an extra-marital context--i.e. only a crime when involving &quot;free women&quot;, or, women of status, as opposed to chattel, and only outside the bounds of marriage.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Modern statistics on rape][39] can be controversial, but under-reporting is definitely an issue.  Regardless of the precise numbers, sexual violence is still common, and rape is still [used as an instrument of warfare][40]. The prevalence of rape in stories and mythology may be a reflection of how often it occurs in the real world.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*I tried to keep this concise in that any one of these aspects could fill a dissertation, so I apologize if everything is not fully explicated.  I can provide more details in comments.  I also recognize this is a potentially charged subject and have attempted to approach it as academically as possible.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_marriage&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_the_Sabine_Women&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece#Classical_Greece&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_in_advertising&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enkidu#Creation_of_Enkidu&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris_myth&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_violence&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philomela&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Burkert#Academic_works&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mircea_Eliade#Work&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_George_Frazer#His_work&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festivals_of_Dionysus&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bacchae#Plot&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreus&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tereus&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyestes#Myth&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus#Mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/5455/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_the_Lesser#Death&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0004&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0108&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thetis#Marriage_to_Peleus&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharsis&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentheus&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanistry#Uses_in_literature_and_popular_culture&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigone_(Sophocles_play)#Themes&#xD;&#xA;  [27]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0098%3Acard%3D518&#xD;&#xA;  [28]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0124%3Acard%3D341&#xD;&#xA;  [29]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0108%3Acard%3D1433&#xD;&#xA;  [30]: https://www.folgerdigitaltexts.org/?chapter=5&amp;play=Luc&#xD;&#xA;  [31]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D6%3Acard%3D504&#xD;&#xA;  [32]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_(philosophy)&#xD;&#xA;  [33]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromache_(play)&#xD;&#xA;  [34]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucretia&#xD;&#xA;  [35]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aalphabetic%20letter%3DR%3Aentry%20group%3D2%3Aentry%3Drapio&#xD;&#xA;  [36]: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/booty&#xD;&#xA;  [37]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea#Name&#xD;&#xA;  [38]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_Sea&#xD;&#xA;  [39]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics&#xD;&#xA;  [40]: https://www.who.int/reproductivehealth/topics/violence/sexual_violence/en/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18315" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5501" RevisionGUID="72b43383-029a-47e9-b7d3-7890bc6ced37" CreationDate="2019-02-28T18:32:05.603" UserId="2892" Comment="added 87 characters in body" Text="In Greek Mythology, Zeus is said to have fallen in love with [Ganymede][1], a [kouros][2], per his beauty.  Zeus abducts him to serve as his cup bearer in Olympus.  The story has strong homosexual implications, but no one judged Zeus over it, which indicates there was no stigma.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganymede_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kouros&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/c5lbb.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18316" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5500" RevisionGUID="ab18fe96-1f4d-48eb-a2db-2bc898adcb64" CreationDate="2019-02-28T21:38:16.433" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 5 characters in body" Text="There are many answers, but here I'll focus on one of the most famous, [the Pietà][1].  This concept underlies the Jesus story and Christian thought in general, reflecting both divine mercy, and the mercy of humans for other humans.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yeats wrote:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In pity for man's darkening thought &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;He walked the room and issued thence &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In Galilean turbulence; &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The Babylonian starlight brought &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;A fabulous, formless darkness in; &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Odour of blood when Christ was slain &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Made all Platonic tolerance vain &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And vain all Doric discipline.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Resurrection (1931)][2]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here the poet seems to be saying that dispassionate philosophy breaks down in the face of human agony.  The passion of the Christ, or, of any human *[in extremis][3]*.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This notion, as you note, goes back to at least Gilgamesh, but it was very robustly explicated in Greek Drama, often in the context of the Trojan war.  Why Greek Drama specifically?  [Catharsis][4], which is a purgative feeling of pity and dread.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The popular show [Westworld][5] posits that it our suffering that makes us human.  T.S. Eliot suggests it is even a condition of redemption:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The chill ascends from feet to knees, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The fever sings in mental wires. &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;If to be warmed, then I must freeze &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And quake in frigid purgatorial fires &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Of which the flame is roses, and the smoke is briars.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[East Coker, IV][6]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roses represent love, and the briars the pain that comes with it, here specifically in reference to Christ's crown of thorns. Eliot is indicating that passion is a combination of love and agony, and that it can apply both to romantic love ([eros][7]) and to divine love ([agape][8]).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is notable about the Pietà is that it's not a huge, dramatic show of grief, but quiet and personal and human.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][9]][9]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piet%C3%A0&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.scribd.com/doc/75962581/The-Resurrection-W-B-Yeats&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/in_extremis&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharsis&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://quotecatalog.com/quote/lisa-joy-im-afraid-in-o-4an2yYa/&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.coldbacon.com/poems/fq.html&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eros&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agape&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/NAsUC.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18317" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5502" RevisionGUID="740c2d8e-2118-468a-a296-65a5e21a4afc" CreationDate="2019-02-28T22:32:20.437" UserId="2892" Text=" - [Big Ajax (Telemon)][1] kills himself over grief for his diminished honor after Odysseus cheats him out of Achilles' armor and Athena drives him mad to keep him from murdering everyone.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sophocles even wrote [a play about it][2]. I'd say that's pretty dramatic!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_the_Great#Death&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_(play)#Ajax_or_Aias&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0184" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18318" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5473" RevisionGUID="d56e047b-52ed-4880-a145-ddba2e3c5599" CreationDate="2019-03-01T22:10:22.797" UserId="2892" Comment="added 9 characters in body" Text="Preface: This subject is complicated by changing social standards.  [Forced marriage][1] has been routinely practiced around the world into the contemporary era, depending on the society. (This is a major theme of Game of Thrones, as is the condition of women in pre-modern societies in general.) [The Rape of the Sabine Women][2] can provide some context. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**I see three main reasons, lurid appeal, ritual, and humanism.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mythology and folklore serve many functions.  They are form of entertainment (appeal), a commemoration of religious events (ritual), and, in the case of the [Classical period][3] in Greece, it is one of the vehicles for the birth of humanism. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **Lurid Appeal**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This rationale is easy.  &quot;[Sex sells][4]&quot;, and violence as well.  You find everywhere from the very earliest myths to contemporary media.  ([Gilgamesh][5] starts out with a prostitute and a fist fight.  The [Osiris][6] myth involves murder, dismemberment, and necrophilia.)  Rape combines the two (see: &quot;[sexual violence][7]&quot;) and provides a titillation.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Storytellers have to support themselves and to do that they need to hold the attention of an audience. One of the central rules of fiction is high stakes = high audience engagement. The more transgressive the better. (*Kill Bill* and *The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo* are contemporary exemplars, and both can be seen as forms of [Philomel][8], which was a female-centered revenge story involving rape.)  Rape is widely used in modern entertainment as a pretext for revenge, so this phenomenon is in no way restricted to Greek mythology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Ritual**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Burkert][9], [Eliade][10], and [Frazer][11] have written extensively on this subject.  At a very high level, there is archeological evidence of human sacrifice in ancient Europe and other ancient cultures.  Human sacrifice is a central element of several of Euripides' plays, but by the time of Euripides, these sacrifices of legend have been ritualized in the form of drama.  (The [Festivals of Dionysus][12] were religious festivals, and the play [The Bacchae][13] is, at its core, a commemoration of the [death of the god][14].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is an original religious function to mythology. It covers everything from the creation of the universe to the acts of the gods.  In the case of the Greek gods, these acts are often lurid. The behavior of the gods is commemorated in stories, rituals (re-enactments), and in the acts of humans. Cronus swallows his own children, as do [Tereus][15] and [Thyestes][16]. Just as [Cronus overthrows Ouranos, Zeus overthrows Cronus][17].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Persephone, in the ancient context especially, is a coming-of-age story.  Her abduction and forced marriage to Hades explain the cycle of life and the seasons. It's also symbolic of death and rebirth.  [See: [Kore &amp; Persephone][18]]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Persephone's is a central myth, explaining winter, and the Kore is an archetype--in some sense, her story is the story of almost all women. Abductions and forced marriage in Greek myth may be reflections of her story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There also the factor that Zeus is a serial rapist and so it's not surprising rape becomes a staple of Greek Mythology.  A key difference is that what is permissible for the gods is not necessarily permissible for man--Zeus marries his own sister.  So human rapists in Greek mythology are generally villains (Tereus and Thyestes) and, unlike the gods, typically come to bad ends, even in the case of the hero [little Ajax][19].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his [Agamemnon][20], Aeschylus makes the king's concubinage of Cassandra Clytaemestra's main motivation for killing her husband (jealousy and fear of being supplanted).  Although Aeschylus was quite sympathetic to Agamemnon, Euripides is significantly less so, citing Agamemnon's murder of her infant from her previous marriage, and sacrifice of their daughter, [Iphigenia, at Aulis][21], as Clytaemestra's motivations, which leads to the next element: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Humanism**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The humanism wiki doesn't give the full story because the undermining of divine authority begins with works like the Iliad, which has many functions, including subversive.  In this great poem the dignity of the gods is undermined while the dignity of man is elevated through Achilles and Hector.  It also evokes tremendous pity, for Hector in particular--the poem, which begins with the &quot;rage of Achilles&quot;, ends with &quot;the funeral of Hector, the breaker of horses.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unlike the storytellers, thinkers like Plato used mythology to explicate philosophical inquiry.  (In the sense of the Iliad as a subversive text, Zeus may be said to not have escaped the [prophecy on Thetis][22] in being ultimately diminished by her son, ironically in a rare case where he forgoes having sex;)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Catharsis][23] (pity and dread) was a central element of Greek Drama. These plays rarely commemorate the travails of the gods, instead celebrating the ordeals of humans.  In the Bacchae, it is [Pentheus][24] who serves as [tanist][25] for Dionysus.  Aeschylus writes of the sufferings of Prometheus in service of mankind, but also writes of the trials, and vindication, of Orestes.  Sophocles most famous heroine is [Antigone][26], who dies in service of a principle.  Euripides can be viewed as strongly feminist, through plays such as [Hecuba][27], The [Trojan Women][28], and [Iphigenia at Aulis][29].  (Humanism is rooted in the agency of humans, and feminism in the agency of women, both central elements of Greek Drama.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An aspect of Shakespeare that makes the works such standouts is the creation of multi-dimensional female characters, whether villains or heroines. So with Euripides. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like [The Rape of Lucrece][30], Ovid's account of [Philomela][31] evokes tremendous pity. Empathy is a key to seeing the [other][32] as human. [Andromache][33] is play about Hector's wife, and her life as slave, after the fall of Troy.  It can argued that by creating strong, believable female characters, and in generating sympathy for their travails, authors like Euripides, Ovid and Shakespeare put a spotlight on the condition and plight of women.  In an indirect sense, this supports the idea of women's rights.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;**Political Uses**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There can also be a political component, as in the myth of [Lucrece][34], which casts her abuser, Tarquin, as a tyrant to be overthrown. This is the rationale for the establishment of the Roman Republic. Exploring the meaning of the Latin *[răpĭo][35]*, rooted in abduction and seizure by force, women, as prizes of war, were &quot;[booty][36]&quot; in both senses of the word.  The abduction of Helen is the *pretext* for the Trojan War, but, if there was such a war, it was surely fought over the trade route connecting Asia &amp; Europe and the [Euxine][37] &amp; [Aegean][38]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;Notes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rape, in the modern conception, seems, in pre-modern times, only considered transgressive in regard to wives and daughters specifically in an extra-marital context--i.e. only a crime when involving &quot;free women&quot;, or, women of status, as opposed to chattel, and only outside the bounds of marriage.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Modern statistics on rape][39] can be controversial, but under-reporting is definitely an issue.  Regardless of the precise numbers, sexual violence is still common, and rape is still [used as an instrument of warfare][40]. The prevalence of rape in stories and mythology may be a reflection of how often it occurs in the real world.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*I tried to keep this concise in that any one of these aspects could fill a dissertation, so I apologize if everything is not fully explicated.  I can provide more details in comments.  I also recognize this is a potentially charged subject and have attempted to approach it as academically as possible.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_marriage&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_the_Sabine_Women&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece#Classical_Greece&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_in_advertising&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enkidu#Creation_of_Enkidu&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris_myth&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_violence&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philomela&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Burkert#Academic_works&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mircea_Eliade#Work&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_George_Frazer#His_work&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festivals_of_Dionysus&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bacchae#Plot&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreus&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tereus&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyestes#Myth&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus#Mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/5455/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_the_Lesser#Death&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0004&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0108&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thetis#Marriage_to_Peleus&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharsis&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentheus&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanistry#Uses_in_literature_and_popular_culture&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigone_(Sophocles_play)#Themes&#xD;&#xA;  [27]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0098%3Acard%3D518&#xD;&#xA;  [28]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0124%3Acard%3D341&#xD;&#xA;  [29]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0108%3Acard%3D1433&#xD;&#xA;  [30]: https://www.folgerdigitaltexts.org/?chapter=5&amp;play=Luc&#xD;&#xA;  [31]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D6%3Acard%3D504&#xD;&#xA;  [32]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_(philosophy)&#xD;&#xA;  [33]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromache_(play)&#xD;&#xA;  [34]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucretia&#xD;&#xA;  [35]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aalphabetic%20letter%3DR%3Aentry%20group%3D2%3Aentry%3Drapio&#xD;&#xA;  [36]: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/booty&#xD;&#xA;  [37]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea#Name&#xD;&#xA;  [38]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_Sea&#xD;&#xA;  [39]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics&#xD;&#xA;  [40]: https://www.who.int/reproductivehealth/topics/violence/sexual_violence/en/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18319" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5461" RevisionGUID="d3a16f2d-5ac3-4e1f-adc1-2dcc63c4d559" CreationDate="2019-03-01T23:15:33.263" UserId="5726" Comment="added 34 characters in body" Text="This question may be a little controversial so try to keep your answers as **academically** as possible. (take an example from @DukeZhou )&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**If on the subject general answers are also accepted**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am familiar with the fact that this happened in pretty much every mythology, but Greek mythology seems to use it a lot. And i was wondering if there was a special reason for this behaviour apart from being the go-to deed for the writers of antiquity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While reading up on some Greek myths i started to notice a recurring pattern in the case of the act of rape.&#xD;&#xA;Is there a reason for the writers in (most) mythologies to resort to rape? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is rape featured so prominently and what is the (if any) hidden meaning behind the rapes? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is the list of rape victims as defined by Wikipedia&#xD;&#xA;[list 1][1]. [list 2][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Aethra][3] (mother of [Theseus][4]); was raped by [Poseidon][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Antiope][6]; raped by [Zeus][7].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Apemosyne][8]; raped by [Hermes][9]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Callisto][10]; raped by [Zeus][7].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Cassandra][11]; raped by [Ajax the Lesser][12], and later forced into [concubinage][13] by [Ἀgamémnōn][14].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Chrysippus][15]; raped by his tutor [Laius][16].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Demeter][17]; according to an [Arcadian myth][18], [Demeter][17] was being pursued by [Poseidon][5] and she changed into a horse to escape him. [Poseidon][5], however, transformed himself into a horse and, after cornering [Demeter][17], raped her, resulting in her giving birth to [Despoina][19], a maiden goddess, and [Arion][20], a divine horse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Europa][21]; raped by [Zeus][7] after he abducted her in the form of a bull.(as seen on the Greek €2 coin)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ganymede][22], son of [Tros of Dardania][23]; taken up to [Mount Olympus][24] by [Zeus][7] in the form of an eagle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Leda][25], raped by [Zeus][7] in the form of a swan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The daughters of [Leucippus][26], [Phoebe][27] and [Hilaeira][28], were abducted, raped and later married by [Castor and Pollux][29]. In return, [Idas][30] and [Lynceus][31], nephews of [Leucippus][26] and rival suitors, killed [Castor][29]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Medusa][32]; raped by [Poseidon][5] in Athena's temple&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Odysseus][33]; raped by [Calypso][34] on the island of [Ogygia][35] [in his seven year stay][36]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Persephone][37]; raped by [Hades][38] and, in some versions, raped by her father, [Zeus][7].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Philomela][39]; raped by her brother-in-law [Tereus][40]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rape_victims_from_ancient_history_and_mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mythological_rape_victims&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aethra_(mother_of_Theseus)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theseus&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poseidon&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiope_of_Thebes&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apemosyne&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callisto_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassandra&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_the_Lesser&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concubinage&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agamemnon&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysippus_of_Elis&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laius&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demeter&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/Despoine.html&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Despoina&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arion&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(consort_of_Zeus)&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganymede_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tros_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Olympus&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leda_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leucippus_of_Messenia&#xD;&#xA;  [27]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebe_of_Messenia&#xD;&#xA;  [28]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilaeira&#xD;&#xA;  [29]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castor_and_Pollux&#xD;&#xA;  [30]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idas&#xD;&#xA;  [31]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynceus_of_Argos&#xD;&#xA;  [32]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medusa&#xD;&#xA;  [33]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odysseus&#xD;&#xA;  [34]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calypso_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [35]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogygia&#xD;&#xA;  [36]: https://www.greekmyths-greekmythology.com/calypso-odysseus-greek-myth/&#xD;&#xA;  [37]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persephone&#xD;&#xA;  [38]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades&#xD;&#xA;  [39]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philomela&#xD;&#xA;  [40]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tereus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18320" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5503" RevisionGUID="361b54c2-5b40-4f6a-8182-c445b5cf1df8" CreationDate="2019-03-02T00:55:56.517" UserId="5726" Text="While reading [The Rime of the Ancyent Marinere][1] i got interested in the part of the albatross.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since i myself have been at sea multiple times for weeks i have heard the albatross story coming back. (along a lot more sailors wisdom)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; An albatross flying around a ship in the middle of the ocean was an omen of storms, wind and bad weather to come. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;     &#xD;&#xA;&gt; It was also very unlucky to kill it because sailors thought that the souls of deceased sailors inhabited the albatross&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now there are also articles on [wikipedia][2] and [superstitions][3] stating that this was a total [fabrication of Samuel Taylor Coleridge][4] and has only been a superstition since he made it into one?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Today, someone carrying a burden is said to have 'an albatross around their neck', which was the punishment given to the mariner in Coleridge's poem. Thanks to the poem, written in 1797, there is now a widespread belief that sailors actually believed this superstition, because albatrosses were thought to be the souls of departed sailors. But in truth sailors regularly killed and ate these birds, as related by Captain James Cook in the 1770s. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So my question is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was the superstition present before Coleridge wrote about it?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was the albatross being bad luck real nautical mythology/folklore?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.rc.umd.edu/sites/default/RCOldSite/www/rchs/reader/rime1.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailors'_superstitions#Albatross&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://superstitions.biz/Superstitions/Superstition-SHOOTING-THE-ALBATROSS-13-number-crazy.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Taylor_Coleridge" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18321" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5503" RevisionGUID="361b54c2-5b40-4f6a-8182-c445b5cf1df8" CreationDate="2019-03-02T00:55:56.517" UserId="5726" Text="Was the albatross being bad luck real nautical mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18322" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5503" RevisionGUID="361b54c2-5b40-4f6a-8182-c445b5cf1df8" CreationDate="2019-03-02T00:55:56.517" UserId="5726" Text="|superstition|nautical-mythology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18323" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5503" RevisionGUID="b9b9b3d9-ab62-4bf5-a5e3-2df5acc54577" CreationDate="2019-03-02T01:06:48.543" UserId="5726" Comment="edited title" Text="Was the albatross being bad luck fabricated or real nautical mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18324" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5420" RevisionGUID="1b64fd0a-fb88-4221-8035-7703d2858982" CreationDate="2019-03-02T01:14:24.963" UserId="5726" Comment="added 42 characters in body" Text="There are satan/devil representations in other faiths/myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But who was the first to have a role and background similar to Satan?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since religions sometimes take over traits of the old ones there must be originator satan in the beginnings of written mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The answer could be from multiple cultures from different parts of the world, or just one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Preferably male but if there is a female version (or a genderless version) who was earlier than the male version that would be the most acceptable answer." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18325" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5502" RevisionGUID="9a7da3d0-47be-48b3-be26-e3f6b1b248ed" CreationDate="2019-03-02T01:25:56.487" UserId="2892" Comment="Added Antigone as a counter example to Ajax--both act out of grief, but Ajax's act is solipsistic, where Antigone's is selfless." Text=" - [**Big Ajax** (Telemon)][1] kills himself over grief for his diminished honor after Odysseus cheats him out of Achilles' armor and Athena drives him mad to keep him from murdering everyone.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sophocles even wrote [a play about it][2]. I'd say that's pretty dramatic!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;___________________&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Sophocles' **[Antigone][3]**, out of grief and love for her brother, Polyneices, on of the [Seven Against Thebes][4], whose body is left to rot, buries him against king Creon's order, knowing she will be executed for it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Her death sentence is to be buried alive in a cave, [Cask of Amontillado style][5], but she hangs herself instead.  Out of grief, her betrothed, Haemon, tries to stab Creon, and, failing, stabs himself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Antigone is important because of the [themes][6] that arise, which include [civil disobedience][7].  Antigone knowingly breaks an unjust law, but accepts the penalty, which leads to: &quot;Anyone who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust and willingly accepts the penalty ... is expressing the very highest respect for law.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Comparison: Ajax's act, although honorable, is solipsistic; Antigone's is selfless. Ajax acts out of shame; Antigone out of familial love and respect for the rituals.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_the_Great#Death&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_(play)#Ajax_or_Aias&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigone_(Sophocles_play)#Synopsis&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Against_Thebes&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cask_of_Amontillado#Plot_summary&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigone_(Sophocles_play)#Themes&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_disobedience" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18326" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5503" RevisionGUID="8e630c6f-b0c3-4646-b281-272e3b483d43" CreationDate="2019-03-02T01:54:35.173" UserId="5726" Comment="added 19 characters in body" Text="While reading [The Rime of the Ancyent Marinere][1] i got interested in the part of the albatross.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since i myself have been at sea multiple times for weeks i have heard the albatross story coming back still going strong. (along a lot more sailors wisdom)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; An albatross flying around a ship in the middle of the ocean was an omen of storms, wind and bad weather to come. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;     &#xD;&#xA;&gt; It was also very unlucky to kill it because sailors thought that the souls of deceased sailors inhabited the albatross&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now there are also articles on [wikipedia][2] and [superstitions][3] stating that this was a total [fabrication of Samuel Taylor Coleridge][4] and has only been a superstition since he made it into one?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Today, someone carrying a burden is said to have 'an albatross around their neck', which was the punishment given to the mariner in Coleridge's poem. Thanks to the poem, written in 1797, there is now a widespread belief that sailors actually believed this superstition, because albatrosses were thought to be the souls of departed sailors. But in truth sailors regularly killed and ate these birds, as related by Captain James Cook in the 1770s. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So my question is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was the superstition present before Coleridge wrote about it?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was the albatross being bad luck real nautical mythology/folklore?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.rc.umd.edu/sites/default/RCOldSite/www/rchs/reader/rime1.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailors'_superstitions#Albatross&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://superstitions.biz/Superstitions/Superstition-SHOOTING-THE-ALBATROSS-13-number-crazy.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Taylor_Coleridge" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18327" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5502" RevisionGUID="3fc11bfb-8e64-411e-9937-c6a76d6d0440" CreationDate="2019-03-02T02:09:20.300" UserId="2892" Comment="added 312 characters in body" Text=" - [**Big Ajax** (Telemon)][1] kills himself over grief for his diminished honor after Odysseus cheats him out of Achilles' armor and Athena drives him mad to keep him from murdering everyone.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sophocles even wrote [a play about it][2]. I'd say that's pretty dramatic!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The idea here is that one's honor is more important than one's life, which is reflected in Achilles' choice to die at Troy rather than not go and live to old age.  (Pursuit of glory is commonly attributed as the motivator, but there would also be the shame of not participating alongside his fellow Greeks.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;___________________&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Sophocles' **[Antigone][3]**, out of grief and love for her brother, Polyneices, one of the [Seven Against Thebes][4], whose body is left to rot, buries him against king Creon's order, knowing she will be executed for it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Her death sentence is to be buried alive in a cave, [Cask of Amontillado style][5], but she hangs herself instead.  Out of grief, her betrothed, Haemon, tries to stab Creon, and, failing, stabs himself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Antigone is important because of the [themes][6] that arise, which include [civil disobedience][7].  Antigone knowingly breaks an unjust law, but accepts the penalty, which leads to: &quot;Anyone who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust and willingly accepts the penalty ... is expressing the very highest respect for law.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Comparison: Ajax's act, although honorable, is solipsistic; Antigone's is selfless. Ajax acts out of shame; Antigone out of familial love and respect for the rituals.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_the_Great#Death&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_(play)#Ajax_or_Aias&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigone_(Sophocles_play)#Synopsis&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Against_Thebes&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cask_of_Amontillado#Plot_summary&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigone_(Sophocles_play)#Themes&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_disobedience" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18328" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5503" RevisionGUID="4a01de80-cad9-42ea-8448-a8eb9091ae91" CreationDate="2019-03-02T02:15:37.450" UserId="5726" Comment="added 35 characters in body" Text="While reading [The Rime of the Ancyent Marinere][1] (i found an old iron maiden vinyl) i got interested in the part of the albatross.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since i myself have been at sea multiple times for weeks i have heard the albatross story coming back still going strong. (along a lot more sailors wisdom)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; An albatross flying around a ship in the middle of the ocean was an omen of storms, wind and bad weather to come. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;     &#xD;&#xA;&gt; It was also very unlucky to kill it because sailors thought that the souls of deceased sailors inhabited the albatross&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now there are also articles on [wikipedia][2] and [superstitions][3] stating that this was a total [fabrication of Samuel Taylor Coleridge][4] and has only been a superstition since he made it into one?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Today, someone carrying a burden is said to have 'an albatross around their neck', which was the punishment given to the mariner in Coleridge's poem. Thanks to the poem, written in 1797, there is now a widespread belief that sailors actually believed this superstition, because albatrosses were thought to be the souls of departed sailors. But in truth sailors regularly killed and ate these birds, as related by Captain James Cook in the 1770s. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So my question is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was the superstition present before Coleridge wrote about it?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was the albatross being bad luck real nautical mythology/folklore?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.rc.umd.edu/sites/default/RCOldSite/www/rchs/reader/rime1.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailors'_superstitions#Albatross&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://superstitions.biz/Superstitions/Superstition-SHOOTING-THE-ALBATROSS-13-number-crazy.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Taylor_Coleridge" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18329" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5504" RevisionGUID="e3a2a62d-66e6-4409-8ed9-332bb44d4f11" CreationDate="2019-03-02T02:25:59.493" UserId="5726" Text="As a follow-up to my (almost) namesake @Thom .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And to @Spencer &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is not specifically stated that they burn in water they are only afeared to cross it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tim O 'Shanter's poem says&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;   Ah, Tam! ah, Tam! thou'll get thy fairin!  In hell they'll roast&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thee like a herrin!  In vain thy Kate awaits thy comin!  Kate soon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; will be a woefu' woman!  Now, do thy speedy utmost, Meg,  And win the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; key-stane of the brig:  There at them thou thy tail may toss,  **A&#xD;&#xA;&gt; running stream they dare na cross.**  But ere the key-stane she could&#xD;&#xA;&gt; make,  The fient a tail she had to shake!  For Nannie far before the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rest,  Hard upon noble Maggie prest,  And flew at Tam wi' furious&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ettle;  But little wist she Maggie's mettle—  Ae spring brought aff&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her master hale  But left behind her ain grey tail:  The carlin&#xD;&#xA;&gt; claught her by the rump,  And left poor Maggie scarce a stump.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The poem][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43815/tam-o-shanter" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18330" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5505" RevisionGUID="6cef0170-4336-46df-9dd3-dc17c239d66e" CreationDate="2019-03-02T03:53:58.813" UserId="2892" Text="I was recently thinking about Orpheus, and different accounts of his death, and although they tend to vary, the versions that strike me as most compelling are those in which the loss of Eurydice may be the underlying cause.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a version in which Zeus strikes him down for impiety, &quot;being struck by a thunderbolt, hurled at him by the god because he revealed sayings in the mysteries to men who had not heard them before.&quot;[ \[Pausanias, 9.30.5\]][1].  But the historian also suggests that it was at the hands of the Thracian women, who &quot;plotted his death, because he had persuaded their husbands to accompany him in his wanderings.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This second version is closer to his death at the hands of maenads for impiety towards Dionysus, in renouncing worship of any god but Apollo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ovid extends the theme, noting that &quot;Orpheus still believed&#xD;&#xA;his love-pledge was forever. So he kept away from women, though so many grieved, because he took no notice of their love.&quot; because &quot;he was the first of the Thracian people to transfer his love to young boys, and enjoy their brief springtime, and early flowering, this side of manhood.&quot; [*Metamorphoses* X.80; [More][2]; [Kline][3]]  But &quot;One of those women, as her tangled hair was tossed upon the light breeze shouted, 'See! Here is the poet who has scorned our love!' Then hurled her spear at great Apollo's bard.&quot; [id. [XI\]][4]  Although at first no object will harm the singer, the clamor of the womens' voices eventually drowns out his song, and he is struck down and torn to pieces.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So it is Orpheus' love for Eurydice that causes him to reject the love of other women, and for this he dies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - What mythological figures have died for love?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0160%3Abook%3D9%3Achapter%3D30%3Asection%3D5&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D10%3Acard%3D1&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/Metamorph10.php&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D11%3Acard%3D1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18331" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5505" RevisionGUID="6cef0170-4336-46df-9dd3-dc17c239d66e" CreationDate="2019-03-02T03:53:58.813" UserId="2892" Text="Mythical figures who died for love" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18332" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5505" RevisionGUID="6cef0170-4336-46df-9dd3-dc17c239d66e" CreationDate="2019-03-02T03:53:58.813" UserId="2892" Text="|comparative|love|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18333" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5506" RevisionGUID="00aba6f2-3842-483a-bbaf-fe39e40fa4b6" CreationDate="2019-03-02T03:58:13.247" UserId="2892" Text="- Orpheus is so distraught over the death of Eurydice that he spurns the love of women, and for this impiety against Dionysus, is torn limb from limb by the [Bacchantes][1] and his head thrown into a river, still singing his lament.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See: [Mythical figures who died for love][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maenad&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/5505/mythical-figures-who-died-for-love" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18334" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5505" RevisionGUID="f687812c-0bc7-456d-a002-a39f5cdf9ef7" CreationDate="2019-03-02T04:14:41.733" UserId="2892" Comment="added 104 characters in body" Text="I was recently thinking about Orpheus, and different accounts of his death, and although they tend to vary, the versions that strike me as most compelling are those in which the loss of Eurydice may be the underlying cause.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a version in which Zeus strikes him down for impiety, &quot;being struck by a thunderbolt, hurled at him by the god because he revealed sayings in the mysteries to men who had not heard them before.&quot;[ \[Pausanias, 9.30.5\]][1].  But the historian also suggests that it was at the hands of the Thracian women, who &quot;plotted his death, because he had persuaded their husbands to accompany him in his wanderings.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This second version is closer to his death at the hands of maenads for impiety towards Dionysus, in renouncing worship of any god but Apollo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ovid, the great [love poet][2], extends the theme, noting that: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Orpheus still believed his love-pledge was forever. So he kept away from women, though so many grieved, because he took no notice of their love.&quot; because &quot;he was the first of the Thracian people to transfer his love to young boys, and enjoy their brief springtime, and early flowering, this side of manhood.&quot;  But &quot;One of those women, as her tangled hair was tossed upon the light breeze shouted, 'See! Here is the poet who has scorned our love!' Then hurled her spear at great Apollo's bard.&quot; &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[*Metamorphoses* X.80; [More][3]; [Kline][4];  id. [XI\]][5]  &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although at first no object will harm the singer, the clamor of the womens' voices eventually drowns out his song, and he is struck down and torn to pieces.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So it is Orpheus' love for Eurydice that causes him to reject the love of other women, and for this he dies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - What mythological figures have died for love?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0160%3Abook%3D9%3Achapter%3D30%3Asection%3D5&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amores_(Ovid)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D10%3Acard%3D1&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/Metamorph10.php&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D11%3Acard%3D1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18335" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5505" RevisionGUID="fe488ccf-6365-45cf-8fc7-2cbcf39c77e4" CreationDate="2019-03-02T04:21:09.830" UserId="2892" Comment="added 104 characters in body" Text="I was recently thinking about Orpheus, and different accounts of his death, and although they tend to vary, the versions that strike me as most compelling are those in which the loss of Eurydice may be the underlying cause.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a version in which Zeus strikes him down for impiety, &quot;being struck by a thunderbolt, hurled at him by the god because he revealed sayings in the mysteries to men who had not heard them before.&quot;[ \[Pausanias, 9.30.5\]][1].  But the historian also suggests that it was at the hands of the Thracian women, who &quot;plotted his death, because he had persuaded their husbands to accompany him in his wanderings.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This second version is closer to his death at the hands of maenads for impiety towards Dionysus, in renouncing worship of any god but Apollo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ovid, the great [love poet][2], extends the theme, noting that: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Orpheus still believed his love-pledge was forever. So he kept away from women, though so many grieved because he took no notice of their love,&quot; for &quot;he was the first of the Thracian people to transfer his love to young boys, and enjoy their brief springtime and early flowering, this side of manhood.&quot;  But &quot;One of those women, as her tangled hair was tossed upon the light breeze shouted, 'See! Here is the poet who has scorned our love!' Then hurled her spear at great Apollo's bard.&quot; &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[*Metamorphoses* X.80; [More][3]; [Kline][4];  id. [XI\]][5]  &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although at first [no object will strike][6] the singer, the clamor of the womens' voices eventually drowns out his song, and he is struck down and torn to pieces.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So it is Orpheus' love for Eurydice that causes him to reject the love of other women, and for this he dies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - What mythological figures have died for love?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0160%3Abook%3D9%3Achapter%3D30%3Asection%3D5&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amores_(Ovid)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D10%3Acard%3D1&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/Metamorph10.php&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D11%3Acard%3D1&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/18947/18947-h/18947-h.htm#gylfe_XV" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18336" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5505" RevisionGUID="3cb4b914-3983-4424-8837-20c2bdbff03e" CreationDate="2019-03-02T04:33:29.190" UserId="2892" Comment="added 104 characters in body" Text="I was recently thinking about Orpheus, and different accounts of his death, and although they tend to vary, the versions that strike me as most compelling are those in which the loss of Eurydice may be the underlying cause.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a version in which Zeus strikes him down for impiety, &quot;being struck by a thunderbolt, hurled at him by the god because he revealed sayings in the mysteries to men who had not heard them before.&quot;[ \[Pausanias, 9.30.5\]][1].  But the historian also suggests that it was at the hands of the Thracian women, who &quot;plotted his death, because he had persuaded their husbands to accompany him in his wanderings.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This second version is closer to his death at the hands of maenads for impiety towards Dionysus, in renouncing worship of any god but Apollo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ovid, the great [love poet][2], extends the theme, noting that: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Orpheus still believed his love-pledge was forever. So he kept away from women, though so many grieved because he took no notice of their love,&quot; for &quot;he was the first of the Thracian people to transfer his love to young boys, and enjoy their brief springtime and early flowering, this side of manhood.&quot;  But &quot;One of those women, as her tangled hair was tossed upon the light breeze shouted, 'See! Here is the poet who has scorned our love!' Then hurled her spear at great Apollo's bard.&quot; &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[*Metamorphoses* X.80; [More][3]; [Kline][4];  id. [XI\]][5]  &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although at first [no object will strike][6] the singer, the clamor of the womens' voices eventually drowns out his song, and he is struck down and torn to pieces.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;His head thrown into the [river][7], and so great is his grief, it never ceases in lamenting. Orpheus, over love for Eurydice, rejects the love of all other women, and for this he meets his tragic end. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - What mythological figures have died for love?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0160%3Abook%3D9%3Achapter%3D30%3Asection%3D5&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amores_(Ovid)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D10%3Acard%3D1&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/Metamorph10.php&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D11%3Acard%3D1&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/18947/18947-h/18947-h.htm#gylfe_XV&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritsa#Etymology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18337" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5506" RevisionGUID="b6154c6b-8b55-4c94-9a3d-bec045b72cdd" CreationDate="2019-03-02T04:34:01.663" UserId="2892" Comment="edited body" Text="- Orpheus is so distraught over the death of Eurydice that he spurns the love of women, and for this impiety against Dionysus, is torn limb from limb by the [Bacchantes][1] and his head thrown into a river, still singing its lament.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See: [Mythical figures who died for love][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maenad&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/5505/mythical-figures-who-died-for-love" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18338" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5506" RevisionGUID="4c6dd05e-4fdd-407d-a6e3-b736f56e56ba" CreationDate="2019-03-02T06:49:12.190" UserId="2892" Comment="added 1317 characters in body" Text=" - **Oedipus** stabs out his own eyes with the brooches from his mother's dress when he finds her hanging dead by her own hand.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There we beheld the woman hanging by the neck in a twisted noose of swinging cords. And when Oedipus saw her, with a dread deep cry he released the halter by which she hung. And when the hapless woman was stretched out on the ground, then the sequel was horrible to see: for he tore from her raiment the golden brooches with which she had decorated herself, and lifting them struck his own eye-balls, uttering words like these: No longer will you behold such horrors as I was suffering and performing! Long enough have you looked on those whom you ought never to have seen, having failed in the knowledge of those whom I yearned to know—henceforth you shall be dark! With such a dire refrain, he struck his eyes with raised hand not once but often. At each blow the bloody eye-balls bedewed his beard, and sent forth not sluggish drops of gore, but all at once a dark shower of blood came down like hail.&lt;br&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Oedipus Tyrannus, 1263 ff.][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;His grief is understandable as he was married to her for many years, and she was the mother of his four children.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maenad&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/5505/mythical-figures-who-died-for-love&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0192%3Acard%3D1237" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18340" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5506" RevisionGUID="56709a38-8e78-4f66-bf66-f7bb2c10b5ef" CreationDate="2019-03-02T08:27:20.333" UserId="2892" Comment="I changed this from Orpheus because his wasn't really a symbolic act in the sense of the question.  Oedipus is much more suitable." Text=" - **Oedipus** stabs out his own eyes with the brooches from his mother's dress when he finds her hanging dead by her own hand.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There we beheld the woman hanging by the neck in a twisted noose of swinging cords. And when Oedipus saw her, with a dread deep cry he released the halter by which she hung. And when the hapless woman was stretched out on the ground, then the sequel was horrible to see: for he tore from her raiment the golden brooches with which she had decorated herself, and lifting them struck his own eye-balls, uttering words like these: No longer will you behold such horrors as I was suffering and performing! Long enough have you looked on those whom you ought never to have seen, having failed in the knowledge of those whom I yearned to know—henceforth you shall be dark! With such a dire refrain, he struck his eyes with raised hand not once but often. At each blow the bloody eye-balls bedewed his beard, and sent forth not sluggish drops of gore, but all at once a dark shower of blood came down like hail.&lt;br&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Oedipus Tyrannus, 1263 ff.][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;His grief is understandable as he was married to her for many years, and she was the mother of his four children.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;The golden pins reflect the blinding rays of Apollo as sun god, whose Delphic prophecies drive the whole cycle, here the revelation of what's been hidden from Oedipus his entire life.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Oedipus' name means &quot;swollen foot&quot;, in reference to the piercing of his ankles when he was exposed as an infant and left to die, one of the ironic clues as to his identity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maenad&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/5505/mythical-figures-who-died-for-love&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0192%3Acard%3D1237" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18341" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5502" RevisionGUID="57511143-8c19-492f-9f75-03f928242776" CreationDate="2019-03-02T08:36:35.200" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 76 characters in body" Text=" - [**Big Ajax** (Telemon)][1] kills himself over grief for his diminished honor after Odysseus cheats him out of Achilles' armor and Athena drives him mad to keep him from murdering everyone.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sophocles wrote [a play about it][2]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The idea here is that one's honor is more important than one's life, which is reflected in Achilles' choice to die at Troy rather than not go and live to old age.  (Pursuit of glory is commonly attributed as the motivator, but there would also be the shame of not participating alongside his fellow Greeks.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;___________________&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Sophocles' **[Antigone][3]**, out of grief and love for her brother, Polyneices, whose body is left to rot, buries him against king Creon's order, knowing she will die for it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Her death sentence is to be buried alive in a cave, [Cask of Amontillado style][5], but she hangs herself instead.  Out of grief, her betrothed, Haemon, tries to stab Creon, and, failing, stabs himself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Antigone is important because of the [themes][6] that arise, which include [civil disobedience][7].  Antigone knowingly breaks an unjust law, but accepts the penalty, which leads to: &quot;Anyone who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust and willingly accepts the penalty ... is expressing the very highest respect for law.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Comparison: Ajax's act, although honorable, is solipsistic; Antigone's is selfless. Ajax acts out of shame; Antigone out of familial love and respect for the rituals.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_the_Great#Death&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_(play)#Ajax_or_Aias&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigone_(Sophocles_play)#Synopsis&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Against_Thebes&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cask_of_Amontillado#Plot_summary&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigone_(Sophocles_play)#Themes&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_disobedience" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18343" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5503" RevisionGUID="7103f382-dc3e-48dc-8a72-d02f6b9a0314" CreationDate="2019-03-03T00:33:55.793" UserId="5726" Comment="added 13 characters in body" Text="While reading [The Rime of the Ancyent Marinere][1] (i found an old iron maiden vinyl) i got interested in the part of the albatross.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since i myself have been at sea multiple times for weeks i have heard the albatross story coming back still going strong. (along a lot more sailors wisdom)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; An albatross flying around a ship in the middle of the ocean was an omen of storms, wind and bad weather to come. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;     &#xD;&#xA;&gt; It was also very unlucky to kill it because sailors thought that the souls of deceased sailors inhabited the albatross&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now there are also articles on [wikipedia][2] and [superstitions][3] stating that this was a total [fabrication of Samuel Taylor Coleridge][4] and has only been a superstition since he made it into one?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Today, someone carrying a burden is said to have 'an albatross around their neck', which was the punishment given to the mariner in Coleridge's poem. Thanks to the poem, written in 1797, there is now a widespread belief that sailors actually believed this superstition, because albatrosses were thought to be the souls of departed sailors. But in truth sailors regularly killed and ate these birds, as related by Captain James Cook in the 1770s. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So my question is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did Coleridge use real nautical folklore about the albatross for his poem?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was the albatross being bad luck real nautical mythology/folklore?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.rc.umd.edu/sites/default/RCOldSite/www/rchs/reader/rime1.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailors'_superstitions#Albatross&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://superstitions.biz/Superstitions/Superstition-SHOOTING-THE-ALBATROSS-13-number-crazy.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Taylor_Coleridge" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18344" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5503" RevisionGUID="4b0f4505-6e85-42af-85b2-7b60cfed19b0" CreationDate="2019-03-03T00:43:17.873" UserId="5726" Comment="deleted 69 characters in body" Text="While reading [The Rime of the Ancyent Marinere][1] i got interested in the part of the albatross.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since i myself have been at sea multiple times for weeks i have heard the albatross story coming back still going strong.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; An albatross flying around a ship in the middle of the ocean was an omen of storms, wind and bad weather to come. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;     &#xD;&#xA;&gt; It was also very unlucky to kill it because sailors thought that the souls of deceased sailors inhabited the albatross&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now there are also articles on [wikipedia][2] and [superstitions][3] stating that this was a total [fabrication of Samuel Taylor Coleridge][4] and has only been a superstition since he made it into one?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Today, someone carrying a burden is said to have 'an albatross around their neck', which was the punishment given to the mariner in Coleridge's poem. Thanks to the poem, written in 1797, there is now a widespread belief that sailors actually believed this superstition, because albatrosses were thought to be the souls of departed sailors. But in truth sailors regularly killed and ate these birds, as related by Captain James Cook in the 1770s. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So my question is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did Coleridge use real nautical folklore about the albatross for his poem?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was the albatross being bad luck real nautical mythology/folklore?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.rc.umd.edu/sites/default/RCOldSite/www/rchs/reader/rime1.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailors'_superstitions#Albatross&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://superstitions.biz/Superstitions/Superstition-SHOOTING-THE-ALBATROSS-13-number-crazy.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Taylor_Coleridge" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18345" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5447" RevisionGUID="434bc55f-be30-4eb1-8a45-e13f112dc7bf" CreationDate="2019-03-03T01:04:35.387" UserId="5726" Comment="updated" Text="On the subject of definition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Religion deals with the establishment of certain ideas that prove the existence of superhuman powers in the form of God or Gods.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It educates the individual with the customs and manners of a particular community or society based on the acceptance of some important faiths and beliefs. Religion is developed and propounded by religious leaders. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When we look at the world today, there are many religions such as Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, etc. All these religions cater towards a singular need of constructing a system of beliefs and getting people to put their faith in that belief.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; **In almost all religions, there are mythologies.** Any given religion will dwell in the delineation of its mythological characters. This emphasizes that mythology plays a significant role in religion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Mythology is aimed at proving the truths and faiths established by religion.** Mythology aims to establish the faiths put forward by any religion through stories and epics. Mythological characters are created in order to prove the validity of religious statements. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Religion, on the other hand, depends on its mythology to survive.** This is the most important observation when it comes to the relationship between religion and mythology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Mythology deals with characters that reflect the supernatural powers already spoken of by the religion that accompanies that mythology.** &#xD;&#xA;In short it can be said that mythology confirms and strengthens religious beliefs and truths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mythology unlike religion does not deal with the customs and manners of a particular community or society based on the acceptance of faiths and beliefs. It is developed and created for the establishment of truths in their respective religions. **Mythology creates interest in the following of any given religion.**" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18346" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5477" RevisionGUID="eac6923c-a590-4ca1-85c7-4c31f410a9f7" CreationDate="2019-03-03T01:15:43.553" UserId="5726" Comment="added 103 characters in body" Text="The [Grim Reaper][1] is a possible candidate. He or She is more or less a “neutral” entity, who works for both god and the devil. Doing his or her job. That’s the only creature (as far as i know) I can think of who could be considered as half way between an angel and a demon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you could tell us which grimoire it is we could search more specifically.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mostly these creatures feature in videogames like Diablo ([Nephalem][2]) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_(personification)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://diablo.fandom.com/wiki/Nephalem&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All in all angels and demons are opposites&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  - **Angels** are considered to be *good* and **demons** are considered to be&#xD;&#xA;   *evil*.&#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;  - **Angels** are good spirits and considered to be saviours of mankind&#xD;&#xA;   whereas demons are evil spirits who tempt mankind to indulge in evil&#xD;&#xA;   acts.&#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;  - **Angels** are known to be protectors of the innocent and the faithful.&#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;  - **Angels** are known to perform many tasks that include maintaining&#xD;&#xA;   order of the universe and also bridging the gap between mankind and&#xD;&#xA;   God.&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;  - The **demons** want utter chaos of the universe. &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;   - They are not protectors but only destructors. &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;   - They wish to widen the gap between human kind and god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;  - The **angels** impart love, kindness and brotherhood whereas demons&#xD;&#xA;   impart hatred and cruelty among mankind. &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;  - The **demons** believe in rebellion against god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So putting these two entities together would be illogical" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18349" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5503" RevisionGUID="c8e519bb-3d4c-4e1d-b881-67a77670a823" CreationDate="2019-03-04T12:24:05.740" UserId="5726" Comment="edited title" Text="Was the killing of an albatross being bad luck fabricated or real nautical mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18350" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5503" RevisionGUID="421f928c-8fd0-45bb-963d-47c6db38ac3e" CreationDate="2019-03-04T16:29:29.747" UserId="5726" Comment="added 287 characters in body" Text="While reading [The Rime of the Ancyent Marinere][1] i got interested in the part of the albatross. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;`‘God save thee, ancient Mariner! &#xD;&#xA;From the fiends, that plague thee thus!-- &#xD;&#xA;Why look’st thou so?’--With my cross-bow &#xD;&#xA;I shot the ALBATROSS.&#xD;&#xA;And I had done an hellish thing, &#xD;&#xA;And it would work ’em woe: &#xD;&#xA;For all averred, I had killed the bird &#xD;&#xA;That made the breeze to blow.`&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since i myself have been at sea multiple times for weeks i have heard the albatross story coming back still going strong.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; An albatross flying around a ship in the middle of the ocean was an omen of storms, wind and bad weather to come. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;     &#xD;&#xA;&gt; It was also very unlucky to kill it because sailors thought that the souls of deceased sailors inhabited the albatross&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now there are also articles on [wikipedia][2] and [superstitions][3] stating that this was a total [fabrication of Samuel Taylor Coleridge][4] and has only been a superstition since he made it into one?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Today, someone carrying a burden is said to have 'an albatross around their neck', which was the punishment given to the mariner in Coleridge's poem. Thanks to the poem, written in 1797, there is now a widespread belief that sailors actually believed this superstition, because albatrosses were thought to be the souls of departed sailors. But in truth sailors regularly killed and ate these birds, as related by Captain James Cook in the 1770s. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So my question is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did Coleridge use real nautical folklore about the albatross for his poem?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was the albatross being bad luck real nautical mythology/folklore?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.rc.umd.edu/sites/default/RCOldSite/www/rchs/reader/rime1.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailors'_superstitions#Albatross&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://superstitions.biz/Superstitions/Superstition-SHOOTING-THE-ALBATROSS-13-number-crazy.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Taylor_Coleridge" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18351" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5459" RevisionGUID="5029ade2-10ea-43e7-980a-6a8118ad3cc0" CreationDate="2019-03-04T17:39:14.013" UserId="5726" Comment="added 213 characters in body" Text="The earliest one I could find was [Eugène Vintras][2](page only available in french) . &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Vintras, following further attacks from the Church, adopted the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; inverted cross as the symbol of the new dispensation of which he was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the prophet, inverted because the Reign of the Suffering Christ had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; been superseded by the Reign of the Holy Spirit of Love.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[source][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Vintras was a French Gnostic revivalist from the around the middle of the 19th century **(1807–1875)**.&#xD;&#xA;He preached the end of the world, and claimed he had received messages from the Archangel Michael and that he himself was a reincarnation of Elijah. Vintras was condemned by the Vatican, and after his condemnation he started using an upside down cross. The mention of this being satanic comes from [Éliphas Lévi] [3] (an occultist himself) stating that Vintras' inverted cross was &quot;**indicative of satanic influences**&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[source][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Vintras][5]][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.nl/books?id=qy1Wp2T3KqgC&amp;pg=PA164&amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eug%C3%A8ne_Vintras#/media/File:Vintras,_Eugene.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89liphas_L%C3%A9vi&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://books.google.nl/books?id=JhiDBAAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA161&amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/BU69m.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18352" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5432" RevisionGUID="fdaf57a1-d613-4f70-8b14-5a2ad56b3e34" CreationDate="2019-03-04T21:55:45.603" UserId="2892" Comment="fixed some typos" Text="This is a complex question, and entire books have been written on it.  The modern conception of Satan is a mixture of qualities arising from paganism (horns, etc.) but the conception of Satan as evil in the Christian sense almost certainly arises from [Zoroastrianism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism) in the form of [Ahriman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahriman). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To unpack this, consider [Hades Diis][1].  Lord of the underworld, yes.  Feared because humans fear death, yes.  But not evil in the Christian absolute sense.  (Zeus and Hades could be interchangeable, for instance in the parentage of [Melinoë][2]. One of Hades' epithets in this tradition is [Eubuleus][3], the &quot;wise counselor&quot;, which was also an epithet of Zeus.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where Lucifer is like Hades is in coming down from heaven to rule the netherworld, underground. Cronus cast into Tartarus is an earlier form.  (The modern conception of Hell comes chiefly from two sources, and Dante's [Inferno][4], and the Greek Hades, in that Dante was heavily influenced by Classical Mythology--his underworld even has a [City of Dis][5].  Hades is the most common term for [hell in the New Testament][6], which was originally written in Greek.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Horns come partly out of the Greek tradition of with [Dionysus][7]/Bacchus, whose revels would certainly have been seen as evil in the Christian sense (although they still survive in celebrations like [Carvival][8];) Horns &amp; hooves are a feature of Pan, from whose name we derive the word panic--[like the Devil with his fiddle][9], Pan is a musician. &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;But Dionysus/Zagreus, as dying/resurrected god is a Christ analog, and Hades is certainly not the adversary of the Lord of Heaven, Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The formal concept of Satan as &quot;the Adversary&quot; ([שָּׂטָן][10]) is found in the old Testament, although here the entity is adversary to man, not to the omnipotent Hebrew God.  But the Hebraic conception is believed to derive from the earlier Zoroastrian, where Ahriman (*Aŋra Mainiiu* &quot;[absolute antithesis][11]&quot;) is the direct adversary of [Ahura Mazda][12], the sole and all-powerful creator god. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zoroastrianism may date back to the second millennium BCE, but we only have documents going back to the 5th century BCE. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An even earlier form would be the Levantine [Ba'al][13], who was horned, but started out as a fertility deity as opposed to an embodiment of evil.  Here, via the Hebraic tradition, Baal becomes a generic reference to a false god, and eventually becomes Beelzebub ([Ba'al Zəbûb][14])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/5406/2892&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melino%C3%AB#Birth&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eubuleus&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Comedy#Inferno&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dis_(Divine_Comedy)&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_Hades#New_Testament&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus#Worship&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnival#Brazil&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0XUTD7QYcs&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D7%A9%D7%98%D7%9F&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahriman&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahura_Mazda&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beelzebub#Hebrew_Bible" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18354" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5509" RevisionGUID="b38aebc8-fb24-4bb3-89d5-be65fb2617dc" CreationDate="2019-03-05T12:00:44.970" UserId="5864" Text="The Dictionary of Deities and Demons states that:&#xD;&#xA;Based on a tradition that goes back to the 3rd millennium, the term apkallu is used for legendary creatures endowed with wisdom, seven in number, who existed before the flood. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can anyone tell me the names of the seven legendary creatures endowed with wisdom, please!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18355" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5509" RevisionGUID="b38aebc8-fb24-4bb3-89d5-be65fb2617dc" CreationDate="2019-03-05T12:00:44.970" UserId="5864" Text="What are the names of the seven sages in the Epic of Gilgamesh" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18356" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5509" RevisionGUID="b38aebc8-fb24-4bb3-89d5-be65fb2617dc" CreationDate="2019-03-05T12:00:44.970" UserId="5864" Text="|gilgamesh|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18357" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5510" RevisionGUID="c3857a81-9f1c-478c-a9ad-cf87ef9dc511" CreationDate="2019-03-05T12:35:11.320" UserId="5726" Text="Short answer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Uanna&#xD;&#xA; - Enmegalamma&#xD;&#xA; - Uannedugga&#xD;&#xA; - Enmedugga&#xD;&#xA; - Enmebulugga&#xD;&#xA; - An-Enlilda&#xD;&#xA; - Utuabzu&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sources for these are in the [Perspectives on Language and Text: Essays and Poems in Honor ][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Each if these sages are said to be responsible for the building or [the laying of the foundations][2] of the following cities in [Uruk][3] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Shuruppak&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Ur&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Kesh&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Kullab&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Eridu &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Nippur&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Lagash&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.co.th/books?id=URe3ugEQB00C&amp;pg=PA40&amp;lpg=PA40&amp;dq=conrad%20and%20newing%20apkallu&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=CES5DLZCb7&amp;sig=Yu8HzXFrSmPZM2lvjjiwwI20WHA&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0CDoQ6AEwBGoVChMIk6my0cyVxgIVFi-8Ch2PGQqP#v=onepage&amp;q=apkallu&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.co.in/books?id=yCkRz5pfxz0C&amp;pg=PA73&amp;dq=apkallu&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjH--CbpvzJAhWKOiYKHZfJDFQQ6AEIIzAB#v=snippet&amp;q=seven&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruk" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18358" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5510" RevisionGUID="2a746a0b-e68a-42ea-829f-3acd615d577d" CreationDate="2019-03-05T12:41:04.353" UserId="5726" Comment="added 77 characters in body" Text="Short answer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Uanna&#xD;&#xA; - Enmegalamma&#xD;&#xA; - Uannedugga&#xD;&#xA; - Enmedugga&#xD;&#xA; - Enmebulugga&#xD;&#xA; - An-Enlilda&#xD;&#xA; - Utuabzu&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sources for these are in the [Perspectives on Language and Text: Essays and Poems in Honor ][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Each if these sages are said to be responsible for the building or [the laying of the foundations][2] of the following cities in [Uruk][3] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Shuruppak&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Ur&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Kesh&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Kullab&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Eridu &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Nippur&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Lagash&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.co.th/books?id=URe3ugEQB00C&amp;pg=PA40&amp;lpg=PA40&amp;dq=conrad%20and%20newing%20apkallu&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=CES5DLZCb7&amp;sig=Yu8HzXFrSmPZM2lvjjiwwI20WHA&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0CDoQ6AEwBGoVChMIk6my0cyVxgIVFi-8Ch2PGQqP#v=onepage&amp;q=apkallu&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.co.in/books?id=yCkRz5pfxz0C&amp;pg=PA73&amp;dq=apkallu&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjH--CbpvzJAhWKOiYKHZfJDFQQ6AEIIzAB#v=onepage&amp;q=seven%20ancient%20cities&amp;f=false--CbpvzJAhWKOiYKHZfJDFQQ6AEIIzAB#v=snippet&amp;q=seven&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruk" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18359" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="5509" RevisionGUID="0aded069-3425-48bc-8969-1af4c983ee2b" CreationDate="2019-03-05T12:42:13.933" UserId="57" Comment="101" Text="{&quot;OriginalQuestionIds&quot;:[1265],&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;yannis&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="18360" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5511" RevisionGUID="742b1f3e-f01e-4d2a-b432-72e652a58d09" CreationDate="2019-03-05T13:10:16.147" UserId="57" Text="The Iron Maiden song *Seventh Son of a Seventh Son* was inspired - according to Steve Harris - by the folklore belief that the seventh son of a seventh son has clairvoyant powers:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “I just had a thought: ‘I wonder if she could foresee her own death?’” stated Steve Harris, in 2013’s Maiden England ’88 documentary. “Who knows? So I started off with that sort of idea. I wrote The Clairvoyant and then went to Bruce with it and basically he said, ‘Yeah, it’s a great idea!’ I started then having an idea for a song, Seventh Son Of A Seventh Son, because supposedly if you were born the seventh son of a seventh son you had the powers of a clairvoyant. So I had those two ideas and Bruce went, ‘You know what? We should do a concept album about this…’”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [How Seventh Son Of A Seventh Son lifted Iron Maiden to heavy metal immortality][1]. Dom Lawson. Metal Hammer.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia [points to Ireland][2] as the source of the belief that the seventh son of a seventh son has healing powers, something that is mentioned in the song: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Here the birth from an unbroken line  &#xD;&#xA;Born the healer the seventh, his time  &#xD;&#xA;Unknowingly blessed and as his life unfolds  &#xD;&#xA;Slowly unveiling the power he holds  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Today is born the seventh one  &#xD;&#xA;Born of woman the seventh son  &#xD;&#xA;And he in turn of a seventh son  &#xD;&#xA;He has the power to heal  &#xD;&#xA;He has the gift of the second sight  &#xD;&#xA;He is the chosen one  &#xD;&#xA;So it shall be written  &#xD;&#xA;So it shall be done  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, I wasn't able to find where the belief that the seventh son of a seventh son has &quot;the gift of the second sight&quot; comes from. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Help?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.loudersound.com/features/how-seventh-son-of-a-seventh-son-lifted-iron-maiden-to-heavy-metal-immortality&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh_son_of_a_seventh_son#Ireland" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18361" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5511" RevisionGUID="742b1f3e-f01e-4d2a-b432-72e652a58d09" CreationDate="2019-03-05T13:10:16.147" UserId="57" Text="What is the source of the belief that the seventh son of a seventh son is a clairvoyant?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18362" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5511" RevisionGUID="742b1f3e-f01e-4d2a-b432-72e652a58d09" CreationDate="2019-03-05T13:10:16.147" UserId="57" Text="|myth-identification|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18363" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5512" RevisionGUID="aac74f77-95ef-4608-a011-004306f62b8d" CreationDate="2019-03-05T20:26:26.257" UserId="5521" Text="I read this article that tries to describe all things one could do with the body parts and blood of the dragon:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://mythenthusiast.wordpress.com/2019/03/05/the-uses-of-dragon-parts-in-mythology-and-folklore/&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does anyone here know of other uses of dragon parts that are not mentioned in this article?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18364" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5512" RevisionGUID="aac74f77-95ef-4608-a011-004306f62b8d" CreationDate="2019-03-05T20:26:26.257" UserId="5521" Text="What more uses are there for dragon parts?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18365" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5512" RevisionGUID="aac74f77-95ef-4608-a011-004306f62b8d" CreationDate="2019-03-05T20:26:26.257" UserId="5521" Text="|mythical-creatures|comparative|dragons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18366" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5513" RevisionGUID="10ca3f6b-2f06-463a-824e-0a7682153b71" CreationDate="2019-03-06T04:31:25.963" UserId="5865" Text="Im comparing the interpretations of Apollodorus, Ovid and Hesiod to see what version humankind is liked more by the gods, which one is it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18367" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5513" RevisionGUID="10ca3f6b-2f06-463a-824e-0a7682153b71" CreationDate="2019-03-06T04:31:25.963" UserId="5865" Text="In what version of Greek Mythology are humankind liked the most?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18368" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5513" RevisionGUID="10ca3f6b-2f06-463a-824e-0a7682153b71" CreationDate="2019-03-06T04:31:25.963" UserId="5865" Text="|greek|hesiod|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18371" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5512" RevisionGUID="4abfc073-07ef-4272-bb61-0f6a244df6b6" CreationDate="2019-03-06T09:01:48.057" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|dragons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18372" PostHistoryTypeId="36" PostId="5514" RevisionGUID="e2165811-180b-4d18-bb64-364c192c250e" CreationDate="2019-03-06T14:43:20.540" UserId="-1" Comment="from https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/51422/zeus-lightning-bolt" />
  <row Id="18373" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5514" RevisionGUID="de9b9f07-5dde-4b81-a115-e9ca06c84bd5" CreationDate="2019-03-06T02:55:05.437" UserId="5431" Text="Did Zeus'/Iupiters' lightning bolt ever attain it's own personal name, or did the Greeks and Romans only ever use generic words for thunder and lightning?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18374" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5514" RevisionGUID="de9b9f07-5dde-4b81-a115-e9ca06c84bd5" CreationDate="2019-03-06T02:55:05.437" UserId="5431" Text="Zeus' Lightning Bolt" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18375" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5514" RevisionGUID="de9b9f07-5dde-4b81-a115-e9ca06c84bd5" CreationDate="2019-03-06T02:55:05.437" UserId="5431" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18376" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5515" RevisionGUID="a51587d5-145b-4711-9338-d29a099764da" CreationDate="2019-03-06T23:11:59.230" UserId="5867" Text="Libraries are points of access to the underworld, the place where of the shades live.  Go into any library and wander  into the stacks, see the blank faces of those who are reading there among the moldering books.  They are like the faces of the shades that greeted Odysseus in book 11 of the Odyssey,  staring blankly without passion.   Odysseus needed to give the shades sheep blood in order for them to speak, and when we read we are offering the ancestors our life blood so that they come alive again briefly.   I think the most likely gods of the library would be Hades and his queen Persephone. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18377" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5515" RevisionGUID="44b8f0d6-5993-47ad-ace1-9cb17790f985" CreationDate="2019-03-06T23:23:41.957" UserId="5867" Comment="added 316 characters in body" Text="Libraries are points of access to the underworld, the place where the shades live.  Go into any library and wander  into the stacks, see the blank faces of those who are reading there among the moldering books.  They are like the faces of the shades that greeted Odysseus in book 11 of the Odyssey,  staring blankly without passion.   Odysseus needed to give the shades sheep blood in order for them to speak, and when we read we are offering the ancestors our life blood so that they come alive again briefly.   I think the most likely gods of the library would be Hades and his queen Persephone. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To quote Plato at the climax of the *Apology* when he is talking about Hades, “What would not a man give if he might converse with Orpheus and Musaeus and Hesiod and Homer? Nay, if this be true, let me die again and again. . . What infinite delight would there be in conversing with them and asking them questions!”" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18378" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5516" RevisionGUID="2f9f022c-4bbf-472c-8682-d5014801ad33" CreationDate="2019-03-08T11:33:12.617" UserId="5871" Text="What does mythology give us?what can we learn from it? It is something continuing from very ancient times. I want to know how actually learning about mythical stories helps. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18379" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5516" RevisionGUID="2f9f022c-4bbf-472c-8682-d5014801ad33" CreationDate="2019-03-08T11:33:12.617" UserId="5871" Text="What can we learn from mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18380" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5516" RevisionGUID="2f9f022c-4bbf-472c-8682-d5014801ad33" CreationDate="2019-03-08T11:33:12.617" UserId="5871" Text="|mythical-creatures|mythohistory|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18386" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5520" RevisionGUID="c3fdc082-750d-4790-8e5d-4f79564e1659" CreationDate="2019-03-09T04:30:15.573" UserId="2892" Text="Mythology serves many functions.  We assume that originally it was a religious function, but it's hard to separate from the entertainment aspect.  Before there were books, people likely sat around telling stories, and when humans started writing, myths were one of the subjects.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Religious function&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Stories of the gods and goddesses and of creation.  Explaining natural phenomena.  Commemorating cult heroes such as Gilgamesh and Theseus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Entertainment function&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mythology has some very good stories, ranging from adventure to horror to comedy.  The Iliad and Odyssey are great examples of epic poems that originally were passed from generation to generation via oral tradition.  Homer is called a bard because he would sing these poems in exchange for his supper.  The [Dionysia][1] was a religious festival where plays about mythological figures were presented.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Social Commentary&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Iliad has subversive elements, undermining the dignity of the gods and elevating the dignity of man.  Aeschylus famous [Oresteia][2] is about civilization itself, and civil vs. natural law.  Sophocles' [Antigone][3] is about civil disobedience.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Philosophy&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mythology has been used to explicate philosophy.  Hesiod, a mythographer roughly contiguous with Homer, wrote about how to live, using the myths as allegory.  Plato and Aristotle used mythological examples to explicate abstract concepts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;These are the main functions I can think of offhand, with a few examples.  (If this question survives, I may come back and add more detail:)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysia&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oresteia#Analysis_of_themes&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigone_(Sophocles_play)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18388" PostHistoryTypeId="38" PostId="1265" RevisionGUID="6558a7d6-b0c9-467f-a61d-47b14638e1df" CreationDate="2019-03-09T08:29:46.287" UserId="57" Comment="from https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/5509/what-are-the-names-of-the-seven-sages-in-the-epic-of-gilgamesh" />
  <row Id="18389" PostHistoryTypeId="37" PostId="5509" RevisionGUID="6558a7d6-b0c9-467f-a61d-47b14638e1df" CreationDate="2019-03-09T08:29:46.287" UserId="57" Comment="to https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1265/who-were-the-seven-sages-who-laid-the-foundations-of-uruk" />
  <row Id="18390" PostHistoryTypeId="38" PostId="5510" RevisionGUID="6558a7d6-b0c9-467f-a61d-47b14638e1df" CreationDate="2019-03-09T08:29:46.287" UserId="57" Comment="from https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/5509/what-are-the-names-of-the-seven-sages-in-the-epic-of-gilgamesh" />
  <row Id="18391" PostHistoryTypeId="14" PostId="5509" RevisionGUID="c490d304-db3e-43cd-bbe8-1595c07266b5" CreationDate="2019-03-09T08:29:46.287" UserId="57" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;yannis&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="18392" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5461" RevisionGUID="93e5db4d-16f7-404f-a197-bfbfff623dc0" CreationDate="2019-03-09T11:36:55.287" UserId="5726" Comment="added 122 characters in body" Text="This question may be a little controversial so try to keep your answers as **academically** as possible. (take an example from @DukeZhou )&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**If on the subject general answers are also accepted**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am familiar with the fact that this happened in pretty much every mythology, but Greek mythology seems to use it a lot. And i was wondering if there was a special reason for this behaviour apart from being the go-to deed for the writers of antiquity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While reading up on some Greek myths i started to notice a recurring pattern in the case of the act of rape.&#xD;&#xA;Is there a reason for the writers in (most) mythologies to resort to rape? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is rape featured so prominently and what is the (if any) hidden meaning behind the rapes? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is the list i put together as defined by Wikipedia&#xD;&#xA;[list 1][1]. [list 2][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Aethra][3] (mother of [Theseus][4]); was raped by [Poseidon][5]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Antiope][6]; raped by [Zeus][7].&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Apemosyne][8]; raped by [Hermes][9]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Callisto][10]; raped by [Zeus][7].&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Cassandra][11]; raped by [Ajax the Lesser][12], and later forced into&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [concubinage][13] by [Ἀgamémnōn][14].&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Chrysippus][15]; raped by his tutor [Laius][16].&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Demeter][17]; according to an [Arcadian myth][18], [Demeter][17] was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; being pursued by [Poseidon][5] and she changed into a horse to escape&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him. [Poseidon][5], however, transformed himself into a horse and,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after cornering [Demeter][17], raped her, resulting in her giving&#xD;&#xA;&gt; birth to [Despoina][19], a maiden goddess, and [Arion][20], a divine&#xD;&#xA;&gt; horse.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Europa][21]; raped by [Zeus][7] after he abducted her in the form of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a bull.(as seen on the Greek €2 coin)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Ganymede][22], son of [Tros of Dardania][23]; taken up to [Mount&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Olympus][24] by [Zeus][7] in the form of an eagle.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Leda][25], raped by [Zeus][7] in the form of a swan.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The daughters of [Leucippus][26], [Phoebe][27] and [Hilaeira][28],&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were abducted, raped and later married by [Castor and Pollux][29]. In&#xD;&#xA;&gt; return, [Idas][30] and [Lynceus][31], nephews of [Leucippus][26] and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rival suitors, killed [Castor][29]. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Medusa][32]; raped by [Poseidon][5] in Athena's temple&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Odysseus][33]; raped by [Calypso][34] on the island of [Ogygia][35]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [in his seven year stay][36]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Persephone][37]; raped by [Hades][38] and, in some versions, raped by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her father, [Zeus][7].&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Philomela][39]; raped by her brother-in-law [Tereus][40]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rape_victims_from_ancient_history_and_mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mythological_rape_victims&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aethra_(mother_of_Theseus)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theseus&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poseidon&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiope_of_Thebes&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apemosyne&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callisto_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassandra&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_the_Lesser&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concubinage&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agamemnon&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysippus_of_Elis&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laius&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demeter&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/Despoine.html&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Despoina&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arion&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(consort_of_Zeus)&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganymede_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tros_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Olympus&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leda_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leucippus_of_Messenia&#xD;&#xA;  [27]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebe_of_Messenia&#xD;&#xA;  [28]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilaeira&#xD;&#xA;  [29]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castor_and_Pollux&#xD;&#xA;  [30]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idas&#xD;&#xA;  [31]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynceus_of_Argos&#xD;&#xA;  [32]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medusa&#xD;&#xA;  [33]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odysseus&#xD;&#xA;  [34]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calypso_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [35]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogygia&#xD;&#xA;  [36]: https://www.greekmyths-greekmythology.com/calypso-odysseus-greek-myth/&#xD;&#xA;  [37]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persephone&#xD;&#xA;  [38]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades&#xD;&#xA;  [39]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philomela&#xD;&#xA;  [40]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tereus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18403" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5520" RevisionGUID="8b1c7356-d958-4317-8f51-7cea49338d11" CreationDate="2019-03-11T16:52:09.513" UserId="2892" Comment="Added a but about National Myths.  Not putting in huge effort b/c it looks like this question will be (unfortunately) closed" Text="Mythology serves many functions.  We assume that originally it was a religious function, but it's hard to separate from the entertainment aspect.  Before there were books, people likely sat around telling stories, and when humans started writing, myths were one of the subjects.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Religious function&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Stories of the gods and goddesses and of creation.  Explaining natural phenomena.  Commemorating cult heroes such as Gilgamesh and Theseus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Political Function&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;National myths are common, from those involving the [founding of Rome][1], to the [founding  fathers (and mothers) of the United States][2]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Entertainment function&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mythology has some very good stories, ranging from adventure to horror to comedy.  The Iliad and Odyssey are great examples of epic poems that originally were passed from generation to generation via oral tradition.  Homer is called a bard because he would sing these poems in exchange for his supper.  The [Dionysia][3] was a religious festival where plays about mythological figures were presented.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Social Commentary&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Iliad has subversive elements, undermining the dignity of the gods and elevating the dignity of man.  Aeschylus famous [Oresteia][4] is about civilization itself, and civil vs. natural law.  Sophocles' [Antigone][5] is about civil disobedience.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Philosophy&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mythology has been used to explicate philosophy.  Hesiod, a mythographer roughly contiguous with Homer, wrote about how to live, using the myths as allegory.  Plato and Aristotle used mythological examples to explicate abstract concepts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_of_Rome&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folklore_of_the_United_States#Revolutionary_War_figures&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysia&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oresteia#Analysis_of_themes&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigone_(Sophocles_play)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18404" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5520" RevisionGUID="caecf898-4102-446e-901f-7947596939f0" CreationDate="2019-03-11T17:04:35.107" UserId="2892" Comment="Added a but about National Myths.  Not putting in huge effort b/c it looks like this question will be (unfortunately) closed" Text="Mythology serves many functions.  We assume that originally it was a religious function, but it's hard to separate from the entertainment aspect.  Before there were books, people likely sat around telling stories, and when humans started writing, myths were one of the subjects.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Religious function&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Stories of the gods and goddesses and of creation.  Explaining natural phenomena.  Commemorating cult heroes such as Gilgamesh and Theseus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Political Function&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;National myths are common, from those involving the [founding of Rome][1], to the [founding  fathers (and mothers) of the United States][2]. This is a strong feature of Chinese mytho-history, including the [Mandate of Heaven][3] as the rationale for the overthrow of the corrupt Shang Dynasty, and the founding of the [Han Dynasty][4]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Entertainment function&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mythology has some very good stories, ranging from adventure to horror to comedy.  The Iliad and Odyssey are great examples of epic poems that originally were passed from generation to generation via oral tradition.  Homer is called a bard because he would sing these poems in exchange for his supper.  The [Dionysia][5] was a religious festival where plays about mythological figures were presented.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Social Commentary&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Iliad has subversive elements, undermining the dignity of the gods and elevating the dignity of man.  Aeschylus famous [Oresteia][6] is about civilization itself, and civil vs. natural law.  Sophocles' [Antigone][7] is about civil disobedience.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Philosophy&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mythology has been used to explicate philosophy.  Hesiod, a mythographer roughly contiguous with Homer, wrote about how to live, using the myths as allegory.  Plato and Aristotle used mythological examples to explicate abstract concepts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_of_Rome&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folklore_of_the_United_States#Revolutionary_War_figures&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandate_of_Heaven&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_mythology#Han_dynasty&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysia&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oresteia#Analysis_of_themes&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigone_(Sophocles_play)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18405" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5516" RevisionGUID="f2a3cff0-8483-4d9c-b9b0-3c2844f53441" CreationDate="2019-03-11T18:27:55.203" UserId="57" Comment="added 1 character in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="What does mythology give us? What can we learn from it? It is something continuing from very ancient times. I want to know how actually learning about mythical stories helps. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18406" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5516" RevisionGUID="f2a3cff0-8483-4d9c-b9b0-3c2844f53441" CreationDate="2019-03-11T18:27:55.203" UserId="57" Comment="added 1 character in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="What can we learn from mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18407" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5516" RevisionGUID="f2a3cff0-8483-4d9c-b9b0-3c2844f53441" CreationDate="2019-03-11T18:27:55.203" UserId="57" Comment="added 1 character in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|mythohistory|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18409" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5523" RevisionGUID="7b1550cd-1e17-4c8d-b7d6-baea75d19bef" CreationDate="2019-03-12T01:55:06.143" UserId="1315" Text="I would start with the eye of the Horus and the eye of Odin, have you considered this link? I believe that Loki and Set are not totally alike, but they are the &quot;necessary evil&quot; that comes to cause disruption in the world in both cultures. Lewis Hyde has written in this direction, &quot;Trickster Makes This World&quot; is one of his works and can be a good starting point. Hope it helps." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18410" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5524" RevisionGUID="4d8aef0d-7276-4c41-a55b-a8a54f82ff58" CreationDate="2019-03-12T17:01:19.737" UserDisplayName="user5459" Text="I'm talking about both modern and ancient religions that we know of." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18411" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5524" RevisionGUID="4d8aef0d-7276-4c41-a55b-a8a54f82ff58" CreationDate="2019-03-12T17:01:19.737" UserDisplayName="user5459" Text="Do all (or most) religions believe in the existence of an afterlife?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18412" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5524" RevisionGUID="4d8aef0d-7276-4c41-a55b-a8a54f82ff58" CreationDate="2019-03-12T17:01:19.737" UserDisplayName="user5459" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18413" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5525" RevisionGUID="4bc90a6a-7229-40d1-b7b6-4ad7b9a89225" CreationDate="2019-03-13T12:08:27.590" UserId="5726" Text="[Jörmungandr][1] and Apep [1][2]-[2][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They Both&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - encircle the world.&#xD;&#xA; - Both where not worshipped but feared.&#xD;&#xA; - Are great(huge) serpents.(although in some stories Apep is portrayed as a crocodile)&#xD;&#xA; - Both are believed to be the reason for earthquakes.&#xD;&#xA; - Both are considered evil&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An added plus is that really big serpents will look great in a cardgame!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rmungandr&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apep&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/apep.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18414" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5525" RevisionGUID="1dda499f-cc64-4a45-a18e-3e941ec4f5fa" CreationDate="2019-03-13T12:35:07.220" UserId="5726" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="[Jörmungandr][1] and Apep [1][2]-[2][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They Both&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - try to/or destroy creation&#xD;&#xA; - where not worshipped but feared.&#xD;&#xA; - Are great(huge) serpents.(although in some stories Apep is portrayed as a crocodile)&#xD;&#xA; - Both are believed to be the reason for earthquakes.&#xD;&#xA; - Both are considered evil&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An added plus is that really big serpents will look great in a cardgame!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rmungandr&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apep&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/apep.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18415" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5523" RevisionGUID="5d89d1d0-970e-4d29-8370-c8cc79e5eadd" CreationDate="2019-03-13T19:55:36.590" UserId="1315" Comment="added 100 characters in body" Text="I would start with the eye of the Horus and the eye of Odin, have you considered this link? Both of them are said to have the sun and moon as their eyes. Both lost the eyes in some moment.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I believe that Loki and Set are not totally alike, but they are the &quot;necessary evil&quot; that comes to cause disruption in the world in both cultures. Lewis Hyde has written in this direction, &quot;Trickster Makes This World&quot; is one of his works and can be a good starting point. Hope it helps." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18416" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5391" RevisionGUID="982e8613-9f55-4343-92f0-f077e3e11b12" CreationDate="2019-03-14T16:19:10.743" UserId="5726" Comment="worked out answer with more info/links and easier to read." Text="[**cryptid**][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some [dictionaries][2] and encyclopediae define the term &quot;cryptid&quot; as an animal whose existence is unsubstantiated. (perfect example would be bigfoot)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; An animal whose existence or survival is disputed or unsubstantiated, such as the yeti. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Conspiracy theory**][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A conspiracy theory is the fear of a nonexistent conspiracy or the unnecessary assumption of conspiracy when other explanations are more probable.&#xD;&#xA; Evidence showing it to be false, or the absence of proof of the conspiracy, is interpreted by believers as evidence of its truth, thus insulating it from refutation&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Reification**][4] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Reification (also known as concretism, hypostatization, or the fallacy of misplaced concreteness) is a fallacy of ambiguity, when an abstraction (abstract belief or hypothetical construct) is treated as if it were a concrete real event or physical entity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; In other words, it is the error of treating something that is not concrete, such as an idea, as a concrete thing. A common case of reification is the confusion of a model with reality: &quot;the map is not the territory&quot;. Reification is part of normal usage of natural language (just like metonymy for instance), as well as of literature, where a reified abstraction is intended as a figure of speech, and actually understood as such. But the use of reification in logical reasoning or rhetoric is misleading and usually regarded as a fallacy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Apocryphal**][5] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; From Late Latin apocryphus (“secret, not approved for public&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reading”), from Ancient Greek ἀπόκρυφος (apókruphos, “hidden,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; obscure”, thus “(books) of unknown authorship”), from ἀπό (apó,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “from”) + κρύπτω (krúptō, “I hide”). Properly plural (the singular&#xD;&#xA;&gt; would be apocryphon), but commonly treated as a collective singular.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Apocryphal” meaning “of doubtful authenticity” is first attested in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; English in 1590.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Old wife's tale**][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; An old wives' tale is a supposed truth which is actually spurious or a superstition. It can be said sometimes to be a type of urban legend, said to be passed down by older women to a younger generation. Such tales are considered superstition, folklore or unverified claims with exaggerated and/or inaccurate details. Old wives' tales often center on women's traditional concerns, such as pregnancy, puberty, social relations, health, herbalism and nutrition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A supposed truth that has been passed down by word of mouth&#xD;&#xA;A rumour, myth or superstition; something which is almost certainly untrue, despite acceptance by many.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cryptids&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/cryptid&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reification_(fallacy)&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocrypha&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_wives%27_tale" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18417" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5520" RevisionGUID="51e8ffdc-acdf-4039-9ac6-5adcedf8745e" CreationDate="2019-03-15T17:45:57.757" UserId="2892" Comment="added 42 characters in body" Text="Mythology serves many functions.  We assume that originally it was a religious function, but it's hard to separate from the entertainment aspect.  Before there were books, people likely sat around telling stories, and when humans started writing, myths were one of the subjects.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Religious function&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Stories of the gods and goddesses and of creation.  Explaining natural phenomena.  Commemorating cult heroes such as Gilgamesh and Theseus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Political Function&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;National myths are common, from those involving the [founding of Rome][1], to the [founding  fathers (and mothers) of the United States][2]. This is a strong feature of Chinese mytho-history, including the [Mandate of Heaven][3] as the rationale for the overthrow of the corrupt Shang Dynasty, and the founding of the [Han Dynasty][4]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Entertainment function&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mythology has some very good stories, ranging from adventure to horror to comedy.  The Iliad and Odyssey are great examples of epic poems that originally were passed from generation to generation via oral tradition.  Homer is called a bard because he would sing these poems in exchange for his supper.  The [Dionysia][5] was a religious festival where plays about mythological figures were presented.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Social Commentary&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Iliad has subversive elements, undermining the dignity of the gods and elevating the dignity of man.  Aeschylus famous [Oresteia][6] is about civilization itself, (civil vs. natural law);  Sophocles' [Antigone][7] is about civil disobedience; Euripides Trojan Women is an anti-war play.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Philosophy&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mythology has been used to explicate philosophy.  Hesiod, a mythographer roughly contiguous with Homer, wrote about how to live, using the myths as allegory.  Plato and Aristotle used mythological examples to explicate abstract concepts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_of_Rome&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folklore_of_the_United_States#Revolutionary_War_figures&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandate_of_Heaven&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_mythology#Han_dynasty&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysia&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oresteia#Analysis_of_themes&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigone_(Sophocles_play)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18420" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5526" RevisionGUID="4288e240-5c4b-4c83-894a-158da3bb2f94" CreationDate="2019-03-16T15:24:08.460" UserId="5690" Text="He didn’t. In the original abduction myth, he just asked Zeus for a wife. And Zeus offered him Persephone, he also “advised” him to kidnap her and helped him with it too. It doesn’t seem that Hades was “in love” with Persephone, he was just desperate. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18423" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5529" RevisionGUID="9d7611d4-c91d-40b9-8cbc-cc7c2cfc9530" CreationDate="2019-03-16T16:28:06.610" UserId="5690" Text="Do some *real* research first. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *real* Greek mythology, when it comes to Persephone and Hades, that NEVER happened. Persephone and Hades *were* faithful to each other. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;NO Ancient Greek author ever claimed otherwise. And NO Ancient Greek myth, ever claimed that they were “unfaithful” to each other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That’s a ROMAN FABRICATION, invented by Ovid, a ROMAN author,for ROMAN mythology as a ROMAN myth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And in the original Roman myths, neither Pluto (Hades) or Proserpina (Persephone) had an “affair.” &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the original myth of Minthe, Proserpina (Persephone) turned Minthe into a plant before she could have a liaison with Pluto (Hades). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While in the *original* myth of Adonis, Proserpina (Persephone) NEVER appeared. His only (possible) lover was Venus (Aphrodite).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And clearly, since that’s a ROMAN fabrication, it’s invalid and non-canon to Ancient Greek mythology, the original mythology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *real* Greek mythology, both Persephone and Hades, *were* faithful and loyal to each other. At least according to the Elysian Mysteries (Persephone’s main cult), who believed that Persephone and Hades had a faithful, and apparently, a loving marriage too. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And if you’re not going to acknowledge Persephone, then you shouldn’t acknowledge Hera either. Since according to some sources, Hera slept with Dionysus. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18424" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5529" RevisionGUID="acda6279-91ba-402b-bc24-720d3f384898" CreationDate="2019-03-16T16:35:56.507" UserId="5690" Comment="added 159 characters in body" Text="Do some *real* research first. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *real* Greek mythology, when it comes to Persephone and Hades, that NEVER happened. Persephone and Hades *were* faithful to each other. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;NO Ancient Greek author ever claimed otherwise. And NO Ancient Greek myth, ever claimed that they were “unfaithful” to each other either.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That’s a ROMAN FABRICATION, invented by Ovid, a ROMAN author,for ROMAN mythology as a ROMAN myth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And in the original Roman myths, neither Pluto (Hades) or Proserpina (Persephone) had an “affair.” &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the original myth of Minthe, Proserpina (Persephone) turned Minthe into a plant before she could have a liaison with Pluto (Hades). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While in the *original* myth of Adonis, Proserpina (Persephone) NEVER even appeared. She was only ever SHOEHORNED into the myth, by *later* Roman authors who were unfaithful to Ovid and to the *original* myth. Making it invalid and non-canon to the *original* myth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And clearly, since that’s a ROMAN fabrication, it’s also invalid and non-canon to Ancient Greek mythology, the original mythology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *real* Greek mythology, both Persephone and Hades, *were* faithful and loyal to each other. At least according to the Elysian Mysteries (Persephone’s main cult), who believed that Persephone and Hades had a faithful, and apparently, a loving marriage too. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And if you’re not going to acknowledge Persephone or Hades, then you shouldn’t acknowledge Hera either. Since according to some sources, Hera slept with Dionysus. While Hephaestus was legitimately married to Aglaea." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18425" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5529" RevisionGUID="c82d66ae-2c27-4413-a6bc-8ac9d6ed8a1c" CreationDate="2019-03-16T16:41:34.967" UserId="5690" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="Do some *real* research first. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *real* Greek mythology, when it comes to Persephone and Hades, that NEVER happened. Persephone and Hades *were* faithful to each other. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;NO Ancient Greek author ever claimed otherwise. And NO Ancient Greek myth, ever claimed that they were “unfaithful” to each other either.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That’s a ROMAN FABRICATION, invented by Ovid, a ROMAN author, for ROMAN mythology, as a ROMAN myth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And in the original Roman myths, neither Pluto (Hades) or Proserpina (Persephone) had an “affair.” &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the original myth of Minthe, Proserpina (Persephone) turned Minthe into a plant before she could have a liaison with Pluto (Hades). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While in the *original* myth of Adonis, Proserpina (Persephone) NEVER even appeared. She was only ever SHOEHORNED into that myth, by *later* Roman authors who were unfaithful to Ovid and to the *original* myth. Making it invalid and non-canon to the *original* myth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And clearly, since that’s a ROMAN fabrication, it’s also invalid and non-canon to Ancient Greek mythology, the original mythology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *real* Greek mythology, both Persephone and Hades, *were* faithful and loyal to each other. At least according to the Elysian Mysteries (Persephone’s main cult), who believed that Persephone and Hades had a faithful, and apparently, a loving marriage too. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And if you’re not going to acknowledge Persephone and Hades, then you shouldn’t acknowledge Hera either. Since according to some sources, Hera slept with Dionysus. While Hephaestus was legitimately married to Aglaea." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18426" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5529" RevisionGUID="c837205c-af84-404c-a6f3-67251d3e7c1b" CreationDate="2019-03-16T16:47:25.127" UserId="5690" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="Do some *real* research first. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *real* Greek mythology, when it comes to Persephone and Hades, that NEVER happened. Persephone and Hades *were* faithful to each other. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;NO Ancient Greek author ever claimed otherwise. And NO Ancient Greek myth, ever claimed that they were “unfaithful” to each other either.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That’s a ROMAN FABRICATION, invented by Ovid, a ROMAN author, for ROMAN mythology, as a ROMAN myth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And in the original Roman myths, neither Pluto (Hades) or Proserpina (Persephone) had an “affair.” &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the original myth of Minthe, Proserpina (Persephone) turned Minthe into a plant before she could have a liaison with Pluto (Hades). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While in the *original* myth of Adonis, Proserpina (Persephone) NEVER even appeared. She was only ever SHOEHORNED into that myth, by *later* Roman authors who were unfaithful to Ovid and to the *original* myth. Making it invalid and non-canon to the *original* myth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And clearly, since that’s a ROMAN fabrication, it’s also invalid and non-canon to Ancient Greek mythology, the original mythology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *real* Greek mythology, both Persephone and Hades, *were* faithful and loyal to each other. At least according to the Elysian Mysteries (Persephone’s main cult), who believed that Persephone and Hades had a faithful, and apparently, a loving marriage too. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And if you’re not going to acknowledge Persephone or Hades, then you shouldn’t acknowledge Hera either. Since according to some sources, Hera slept with Dionysus. No Ancient Greek author ever claimed this, but you honestly seem to think that fan fiction is “valid.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; While Hephaestus was legitimately married to Aglaea." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18431" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5350" RevisionGUID="5e50788c-25c0-426c-a7cc-f6e62b3b85c2" CreationDate="2019-03-16T21:32:56.670" UserId="1317" Comment="The movie was on and some of the dialogue was different from the script excerpt" Text="What appears to have happened is a 20th Century conflation of two different legends, one involving leprechauns and gold and another involving rainbows and gold.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is really no evidence associating leprechauns with rainbows before the 20th century. (A different answer quotes a _Time_ magazine article from 1952). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sole folklore-related Google Books result from the 19th century containing both &quot;rainbow&quot; and &quot;leprechaun&quot; comes from _Irish Melodies_, a compendium of poems by Thomas Moore, but  a look at [the actual page](https://books.google.com/books?id=Z-ZTAAAAcAAJ&amp;pg=PA211&amp;dq=leprechaun+rainbow) is disappointing: the end of one poem mentions a rainbow while a footnote to the next poem mentions a leprechaun. It's just a typographical coincidence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An 1851 book of Northern mythology talks about pots of gold at the ends of rainbows as coming from Germanic myth:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to a popular belief in Germany, Denmark, and England, a golden cup or hidden treasure lies where the rainbow apparently touches the ground.  This seems a remnant of the belief in Mimir's spring, in which wisdom's golden treasure was concealed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-- Benjamin  Thorpe, _Northern Mythology_, London, 1851, [p. 158](https://books.google.com/books?id=sIBpAAAAcAAJ&amp;pg=PA158&amp;dq=gold+rainbow+mimir)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thorpe refers to [Mimir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mímir)'s well, which lies near the Jotunheim end of the rainbow bridge Bifrost. No leprechauns here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_[The Tree of Myth](https://books.google.com/books?id=maFZAAAAMAAJ&amp;pg=PA147&amp;dq=rainbow+&quot;pot+of+gold&quot;)_, an 1889 book of folklore by Charles de Berard Mills, states:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Children believe at this day that a golden cup or bag of gold lies at the end of a rainbow. The story comes from the ancient sun-myth so widely diffused, of the golden orb sinking into the waters of ocean or stream or lake.  In one transformation it was the legend of a golden treasure buried in the Rhine, as we have it in the [Niebelungen Lay](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nibelungenlied), then finally, changed as it is in the nursery tale, we see the old myth again. No leprechauns here, either.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Leprechaun gold is well-hidden and guarded. It doesn't have a rainbow directing the whole world to its location:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; If you could only catch the leprechaun at his work and hold him, he would tell you where the crock of gold, his hidden treasure, lies hidden. Nor would it turn into fairy-gold, once found. But the leprechaun is artful and plays shabby tricks sometimes. He was once caught by a peasant, and in return for his release indicated where a crock of gold lay. It was under a spike of ragweed in a thirty-acre field. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; -- &quot;[Irish Superstitions, Spells, and Charms](https://books.google.com/books?id=L6dXAAAAYAAJ&amp;pg=PA127&amp;dq=leprechaun++gold)&quot;,  Katherine Tynan Hickson, _The Outlook_ , collected in _Current Literature_, 1895&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice you don't find the leprechaun's gold just lying around at the end of the rainbow, you have to kidnap the creature and make him tell you where the gold is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a good segue to what appears to be what I think is the point of conflation, which is the 1947 Broadway musical _[Finian's Rainbow](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finian%27s_Rainbow)_,  by E. Y. Harburg and Burton Lane. It was a smash hit that ran for 725 performances, and was later made into a 1968 movie starring Fred Astaire and Petula Clark.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Ever since I was 2, you've been seeing leprechauns (in the cabbage patch) and rainbows over your whiskey jug.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The play revolves around a pot of gold that Finian McLonergan stole from a leprechaun in Ireland, then brought across the Atlantic to Rainbow Valley, Missitucky. He hopes to bury it near Fort Knox in hopes the gold will multiply. But Og the leprechaun follows Finian to America trying to get his gold back. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice it's not said the gold was found ***at*** the end of the rainbow...instead, Finian brought the gold ***to*** the end of the rainbow. Nevertheless the opening number &quot;Look To The Rainbow&quot; uses the rainbow as a metaphor for a dream to be followed. All of the elements swirl together and it looks like that's how this entered popular folklore.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18437" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5450" RevisionGUID="5cbe1d49-91c4-4007-b427-a9ef7354aa03" CreationDate="2019-03-18T19:35:46.147" UserId="5726" Comment="added link to GHep and goats" Text="The 11th century Christian missionary Adam of Bremen wrote, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&quot;Thor, they say, presides over the air, he governs the thunder and lightning. the winds and rains.&quot;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Norse believed that during a thunderstorm, Thor rode through the heavens on his chariot pulled forward by the goats [Tanngrisnir][1] (&quot;gap-tooth&quot;) and [Tanngnjóstr][1] (&quot;tooth grinder&quot;). Lightning dashed whenever he threw his hammer Mjölnir.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some good information about the viking age can be gotten from this treatise.&#xD;&#xA;[wikipedia to Gesta Hammaburgensis ecclesiae pontificum][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Gesta Hammaburgensis ecclesiae pontificum][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Netherlands we have Donar (West German Thor), and here the story always went that when there was a thunderstorm Donar rode his chariot across the sky while slamming his hammer around making lightning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanngrisnir_and_Tanngnj%C3%B3str&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesta_Hammaburgensis_ecclesiae_pontificum&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://archive.org/stream/gestahammaburgen00adamuoft#page/n5/mode/2up" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18438" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2822" RevisionGUID="c27de7b8-e6b6-4af5-933a-8e900e560d3f" CreationDate="2019-03-19T00:01:15.577" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="18439" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5533" RevisionGUID="63f8288a-53ba-4828-90ee-837098afd607" CreationDate="2019-03-19T00:16:53.860" UserId="2682" Text="Iapyx the son of Daedalus is a different character from the physician compatriot of Aeneas. For some reason certain translators, especially in previous centuries, render the name of Aeneas's companion into English as `Iapis` (e.g. John Dryden's 1697 translation of Virgil's *Æneid*; William Smith's 1867 Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology; &amp; Carlos Parada's Greek Mythology Link website).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is Strabo in his *Geography* (6.3.3) who claims that Iapyx &quot;is said to have been the son of Daedalus by a Cretan woman and to have been the leader of the Cretans.&quot; A bit further into the same chapter it is mentioned that a colony was set up in the Italian city of Brentesion, called Brundusium in Latin, &quot;by those who set sail from Sicily with Iapyx... although they did not stay together there, it is said, but went off to Bottiaea&quot;, a region of Macedonia. Strabo then never mentions this Iapyx character again, so we know nothing of his interactions with his parents or with his brother Icarus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The implication is that Iapyx was born on Crete Island and at some point in his life led a migration of his fellow Cretans to Italy, where he became the ancestor or first ruler of the Iapyges, a group of tribes inhabiting the Apulia region in ancient times, and whose territory was thus called Iapygia. Every other Iapyx in Greco-Roman mythology is basically a device to explain the origin of these Iapyges. The one exception to this is a Theban who is brutally wounded by Theseus in Statius' *Thebaid*. This is the only thing that Statius tells us about him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another Iapyx, who lived centuries before the Trojan War, around the time of Deucalion's Flood, was one of the fifty sons of King Lycaon of Pelasgia (later called Arcadia). He moved from Pelasgia to Italy with two of his brothers, together with whom he is alternately called the eponymous ancestor of the Iapyges. In another version this ancestor is a son of Apollo by a Lycian nymph, and said to have been the brother of Icadius (or Eicadius) and Patarus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aeneas's doctor Iapis/Iapyx is a character from the 12th and last book of Virgil's *Æneid*. Aeneas calls him `Iasides`, &quot;[Son] Of Iasus.&quot; This Iasus was dying at the time that Apollo approached Iapis, wishing to grant him the gifts of prophecy, skill in playing the lyre, and powerful archery. Wishing to prolong Iasus' life, however, Iapis &quot;chose knowledge of the virtues of herbs, and the use of medicine, and, without fame, to practise the silent arts.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only other scene in which Iapis appears is narrated immediately after that back-story. Iapis is now an old man and Aeneas is wounded, the arrow with which he has been shot now stuck in his flesh. Iapis tries to heal Aeneas using Apollo's drugs but fails. Aeneas' mother the goddess Venus intervenes and with her surreptitious assistance Iapis is able to easily remove the arrow and heal Aeneas. The doctor then admits to his patient:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Aeneas, this cure does not come by human aid, nor guiding art, it is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not my hand that saved you: a god, a greater one, worked this, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sends you out again to glorious deeds.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We do not hear of Iapis again, although, considering his geographical location, we are presumably intended to connect him with the Iapyges in Apulia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Earlier in the *Æneid*, in Book 5, Virgil refers to Aeneas's steersman Palinurus as `Iaside`, &quot;[Son] Of Iasus&quot;. Based on this, Carlos Parada, on his Greek Mythology Link website, concludes that Palinurus and Iapis are brothers, sons of the same Iasus.&#xD;&#xA;Assuming that Iapis is not merely a different rendition of Iapyx the son of Daedalus, then it is possible that both men—Iapis and the Cretan Iapyx— were present at Troy during the Trojan War, Iapis on the side of the Trojans; Iapyx within the Cretan ranks among the Greeks. However, no such details are mentioned by Virgil or Strabo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;All *Æneid* quotations are from the [translation of Virgil](https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/Virgilhome.php) on A.S. Kline's Poetry in Translation website.&lt;/sub&gt;           " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18441" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5535" RevisionGUID="246761ab-efa6-420f-bddf-74506af54d02" CreationDate="2019-03-19T02:21:58.280" UserId="5900" Text="A recurring superpower in comics and such is the ability to duplicate or clone oneself, seen in characters such as Multiplex, Amoeba, Multiple Man, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Were there any figures or creatures from mythology that had similar abilities?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18442" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5535" RevisionGUID="246761ab-efa6-420f-bddf-74506af54d02" CreationDate="2019-03-19T02:21:58.280" UserId="5900" Text="Were there any mythological beings which could duplicate themselves?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18443" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5535" RevisionGUID="246761ab-efa6-420f-bddf-74506af54d02" CreationDate="2019-03-19T02:21:58.280" UserId="5900" Text="|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18445" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5389" RevisionGUID="e701a2ba-546d-4b44-a1e7-765afb7ccca4" CreationDate="2019-03-19T11:06:38.627" UserId="5726" Comment="improved answer, added links and improved readability" Text="**As to wether there is a god specifically for clones, the answer would be no.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since there was no such thing as cloning in ancient times they did not have a deity or creature for it (just like there is no such thing as an ancient god of automobiles or smartphones). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although some creatures and deities have the power to clone themselves a specific god for cloning does not exist. If you where to search for a duplicitous deity of creature the list would be substantially bigger.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The closest answer to be found is the Hindu [Raktabīja][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Hindu mythology, Raktabīja was an [asura][2] (loosely translated as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; demon) who fought with [Shumbha and Nishumbha][3] against Goddess [Durga][4] and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Goddess [Kali][5] or Goddess [Chamunda][6]. Raktabīja had a boon that whenever a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; drop of his blood fell on the ground, **a duplicate** Raktabīja would be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; born at that spot (rakta=blood, bīja=seed; &quot; **He for whom each drop of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; blood is a seed**&quot;). According to some sources, Raktabija was, in his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; previous birth, Rambhasura, king of demons and the father of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Mahishasura][7].&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The eighth chapter of the [Devi Mahatmya][8], raktabIja-vadh, focuses on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ambika's battle with Raktabīja as part of her battle against the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; asuras Shumbha and Nishumbha, who had disenfranchised the gods from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; heaven. Raktabīja was wounded, but drops of blood falling on the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ground created innumerable other Raktabījas, and [Ambika][9] and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Matrikas][10] were in difficulty. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;At this point, the Goddess Kali joined&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the battle, who stretched her tongue over the earth and licked up each&#xD;&#xA;&gt; drop of blood pouring from Raktabīja's body while other goddesses&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wounded him. Kali devoured his duplicates into her gaping mouth. This&#xD;&#xA;&gt; form who drank the demon's blood is also called Raktheshwari.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raktab%C4%ABja&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asura&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumbha_and_Nisumbha&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durga&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamunda&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahishasura&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devi_Mahatmya&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambika_(goddess)&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrikas" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18446" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5458" RevisionGUID="fd28a798-7408-46b3-83f5-bcb8f971f1d3" CreationDate="2019-03-19T11:31:12.580" UserId="5726" Comment="improved answer, added links and improved readability" Text="[Jiang Shi][1] meaning &quot;Stiff Corpse&quot; is a kind of zombie from Chinese Mythology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Jiang Shi can be stopped by throwing **rice or coins** on the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ground, as they will not pursue their target until they have picked up&#xD;&#xA;&gt; all the grains of rice or coins, allowing the target to escape or can&#xD;&#xA;&gt; be &quot;deactivated&quot; by placing a **sacred piece of paper/Taoist&#xD;&#xA;&gt; talisman** on their foreheads. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is the conventional wisdom of feng shui in Chinese architecture&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that at the threshold  **a piece of wood approximately 15 cm high, be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; installed along the width of the door at the bottom** to prevent a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jiangshi from entering the household.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Ancient Greeks might have been the first civilization terrorized by a fear of the undead. Archaeologists have unearthed many ancient graves which contained skeletons **pinned down by rocks and other heavy objects** to prevent the dead bodies from reanimating or leaving the grave when they did.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [kamarina][2] in south east Sicily they found a lot of [evidence][3] in a cemetery. The town had once been a Greek colony in Sicily, which is now part of modern day Italy and housed a cemetery known as Passo Marinaro that was used from the fifth to the third centuries BC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In two of the tombs, the skeletons found appear to have been buried in specific ways to keep them in the grave. &#xD;&#xA;Their bodies where completely covered by **large fragments of amphora.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*A reproduction of a sketch by Sicilian archaeologist Giovanni Di Stefano of one of the unusual burials. Notice the large amphora fragments on the individual's head and feet.&#xD;&#xA;Credit: Drawing by D. Weiss from G. Di Stefano's excavation journals.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiangshi&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamarina%2C_Sicily&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.livescience.com/51335-greek-undead-spirits.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/QhCpQ.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18449" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5529" RevisionGUID="e907a3ab-2ebc-408b-917a-6af663cee603" CreationDate="2019-03-19T12:03:03.320" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 35 characters in body" Text="In *real* Greek mythology, when it comes to Persephone and Hades, that NEVER happened. Persephone and Hades *were* faithful to each other. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;NO Ancient Greek author ever claimed otherwise. And NO Ancient Greek myth, ever claimed that they were “unfaithful” to each other either.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That’s a ROMAN FABRICATION, invented by Ovid, a ROMAN author, for ROMAN mythology, as a ROMAN myth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And in the original Roman myths, neither Pluto (Hades) or Proserpina (Persephone) had an “affair.” &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the original myth of Minthe, Proserpina (Persephone) turned Minthe into a plant before she could have a liaison with Pluto (Hades). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While in the *original* myth of Adonis, Proserpina (Persephone) NEVER even appeared. She was only ever SHOEHORNED into that myth, by *later* Roman authors who were unfaithful to Ovid and to the *original* myth. Making it invalid and non-canon to the *original* myth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And clearly, since that’s a ROMAN fabrication, it’s also invalid and non-canon to Ancient Greek mythology, the original mythology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *real* Greek mythology, both Persephone and Hades, *were* faithful and loyal to each other. At least according to the Elysian Mysteries (Persephone’s main cult), who believed that Persephone and Hades had a faithful, and apparently, a loving marriage too. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And if you’re not going to acknowledge Persephone or Hades, then you shouldn’t acknowledge Hera either. Since according to some sources, Hera slept with Dionysus. No Ancient Greek author ever claimed this, but you honestly seem to think that fan fiction is “valid.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; While Hephaestus was legitimately married to Aglaea." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18451" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="5516" RevisionGUID="3d748472-90b1-41d6-b231-a556667c3a13" CreationDate="2019-03-19T13:35:47.013" UserId="-1" Comment="104" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:2807,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Rodia&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:2682,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Adinkra&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:666,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;andejons&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:1317,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Spencer&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="18452" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5512" RevisionGUID="a00d0d2f-baf3-4e9d-96a6-6ccdf8fa8050" CreationDate="2019-03-20T07:12:41.683" UserId="1241" Comment="added 54 characters in body" Text="I read this article that tries to describe all things one could do with the body parts and blood of the dragon:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Uses of Dragon Parts in Mythology and Folklore](https://mythenthusiast.wordpress.com/2019/03/05/the-uses-of-dragon-parts-in-mythology-and-folklore/)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does anyone here know of other uses of dragon parts that are not mentioned in this article?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18453" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5536" RevisionGUID="84a763ff-a477-4dd0-9c7a-86309c77b27a" CreationDate="2019-03-20T12:37:16.453" UserId="5904" Text="Robert Graves in his scholarly &quot;The Greek Myths&quot; Ch 156 says: &quot;Jason first visited Boeotian Orchomenus, where he hung up the golden fleece in the temple of Laphystian Zeus.&quot; I'm not sure what his original source was for this, it's not immediately clear from the text, though there are references which could be followed. This was after Jason left Iolcos and before he arrived in Corinth " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18454" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5537" RevisionGUID="d60f1157-dc2f-459d-bf78-d5e3ea18dc11" CreationDate="2019-03-20T13:07:04.493" UserId="5904" Text="This author seems to be confused. Typhon's revolt took place early in the history of the world, following Zeus' imprisonment of the titans and the subsequent Giants' Revolt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Long after this, Heracles lived in human form, performing his labours, serving as an Argonaut and so on. He did not become a god until after his death, and would not even have been born at the time of the flight into Egypt." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18455" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5538" RevisionGUID="b047e0de-78b7-4664-87b6-8c66bae7d9e7" CreationDate="2019-03-20T22:39:44.690" UserId="5906" Text="I have read a bit about the five suns world creation myth, and I am curious if the original peoples of Mesoamerica believed in other sentient beings similar to the fairies, centaurs and such of European mythology. &#xA;&#xA;I have read about the &quot;wood people&quot; but I am curious if there are more." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18456" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5538" RevisionGUID="b047e0de-78b7-4664-87b6-8c66bae7d9e7" CreationDate="2019-03-20T22:39:44.690" UserId="5906" Text="Mythological and Sentient creatures of precolumbian Mesoamerican Myth" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18457" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5538" RevisionGUID="b047e0de-78b7-4664-87b6-8c66bae7d9e7" CreationDate="2019-03-20T22:39:44.690" UserId="5906" Text="|mythical-creatures|native-american|mesoamerica|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18458" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5539" RevisionGUID="64ee8af8-a011-4844-a1b8-2e16cd7ae8b1" CreationDate="2019-03-20T22:40:24.860" UserId="5726" Text="**What was the first recorded religion or mythology that specified the holy/sacred use of tattoo's?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any older religions that actively supported the tattooing of their religious followers?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most religions today condemn the use of tattoo's:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The majority of Sunni Muslims believe tattooing is a sin, because it involves changing the natural creation of God, inflicting unnecessary pain in the process.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some Christians take issue with tattooing, upholding the Hebrew prohibition . The Hebrew prohibition is based on interpreting &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Leviticus 19:28][1]—&quot;Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dead, nor print any marks upon you&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tattoos are generally forbidden in Judaism based on the [Torah (Leviticus 19:28):][2] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;You shall not make gashes in your flesh for the dead, or incise any&#xD;&#xA;&gt; marks on yourselves: I am the Lord.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know that the Kmer people used [Yantra tattooing][3] and that this practice was taken over by buddhist monks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Southeast Asia has a tradition of protective tattoos known as sak yant&#xD;&#xA;&gt; or yantra tattoos that incorporate Buddhist symbols and images, as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; well as protective mantras or sutra verses in antique Khmer script.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These tattoos are sometimes applied by Buddhist monks or practitioners&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of indigenous spiritual traditions. Traditionally, tattoos that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; included images of the Buddha or other religious figures were only&#xD;&#xA;&gt; applied to certain parts of the body, and sometimes required&#xD;&#xA;&gt; commitment on the part of the recipient to observe the Five Precepts&#xD;&#xA;&gt; or other traditional customs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Hinduism [Mehndi][4] tattoo's are made of henna and are not permanent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tattoos are allowed culturally and religiously, although contemporary tattoos is uncommon among traditional Hindus. Historical roots date back to the practice of Mehndi using Henna.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Leviticus-19-28/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9920/jewish/Chapter-19.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yantra_tattooing&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehndi" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18459" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5539" RevisionGUID="64ee8af8-a011-4844-a1b8-2e16cd7ae8b1" CreationDate="2019-03-20T22:40:24.860" UserId="5726" Text="What was the first recorded religion or mythology that specified the holy/sacred use of tattoo's?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18460" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5539" RevisionGUID="64ee8af8-a011-4844-a1b8-2e16cd7ae8b1" CreationDate="2019-03-20T22:40:24.860" UserId="5726" Text="|origins|abrahamic-religions|rituals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18461" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5539" RevisionGUID="1a5d67bc-867c-4fdc-af46-f7ea606d2a1e" CreationDate="2019-03-20T22:48:15.837" UserId="1317" Comment="Removing grocer's apostrophes " Text="**What was the first recorded religion or mythology that specified the holy/sacred use of tattoos?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any older religions that actively supported the tattooing of their religious followers?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most religions today condemn the use of tattoos:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The majority of Sunni Muslims believe tattooing is a sin, because it involves changing the natural creation of God, inflicting unnecessary pain in the process.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some Christians take issue with tattooing, upholding the Hebrew prohibition . The Hebrew prohibition is based on interpreting &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Leviticus 19:28][1]—&quot;Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dead, nor print any marks upon you&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tattoos are generally forbidden in Judaism based on the [Torah (Leviticus 19:28):][2] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;You shall not make gashes in your flesh for the dead, or incise any&#xD;&#xA;&gt; marks on yourselves: I am the Lord.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know that the Kmer people used [Yantra tattooing][3] and that this practice was taken over by buddhist monks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Southeast Asia has a tradition of protective tattoos known as sak yant&#xD;&#xA;&gt; or yantra tattoos that incorporate Buddhist symbols and images, as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; well as protective mantras or sutra verses in antique Khmer script.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These tattoos are sometimes applied by Buddhist monks or practitioners&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of indigenous spiritual traditions. Traditionally, tattoos that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; included images of the Buddha or other religious figures were only&#xD;&#xA;&gt; applied to certain parts of the body, and sometimes required&#xD;&#xA;&gt; commitment on the part of the recipient to observe the Five Precepts&#xD;&#xA;&gt; or other traditional customs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Hinduism [Mehndi][4] tattoos are made of henna and are not permanent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tattoos are allowed culturally and religiously, although contemporary tattoos is uncommon among traditional Hindus. Historical roots date back to the practice of Mehndi using Henna.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Leviticus-19-28/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9920/jewish/Chapter-19.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yantra_tattooing&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehndi" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18462" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5539" RevisionGUID="1a5d67bc-867c-4fdc-af46-f7ea606d2a1e" CreationDate="2019-03-20T22:48:15.837" UserId="1317" Comment="Removing grocer's apostrophes " Text="What was the first recorded religion or mythology that specified the holy/sacred use of tattoos?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18463" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5539" RevisionGUID="1a5d67bc-867c-4fdc-af46-f7ea606d2a1e" CreationDate="2019-03-20T22:48:15.837" Comment="Proposed by 1317 approved by 5726 edit id of 1716" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18464" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5540" RevisionGUID="ec9dc1ba-64b0-40b4-b835-658da4c681a2" CreationDate="2019-03-20T22:49:31.440" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18465" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5540" RevisionGUID="ec9dc1ba-64b0-40b4-b835-658da4c681a2" CreationDate="2019-03-20T22:49:31.440" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18466" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5541" RevisionGUID="557889ab-030f-402d-a339-c726af3f4782" CreationDate="2019-03-20T22:49:31.440" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18467" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5541" RevisionGUID="557889ab-030f-402d-a339-c726af3f4782" CreationDate="2019-03-20T22:49:31.440" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18468" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5525" RevisionGUID="19d3518a-7bdd-4de2-9be6-444005b9d17a" CreationDate="2019-03-20T23:11:17.807" UserId="5726" Comment="added another option" Text="[Jörmungandr][1] and Apep [1][2]-[2][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They Both&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - try to/or destroy creation&#xD;&#xA; - where not worshipped but feared.&#xD;&#xA; - Are great(huge) serpents.(although in some stories Apep is portrayed as a crocodile)&#xD;&#xA; - Both are believed to be the reason for earthquakes.&#xD;&#xA; - Both are considered evil&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An added plus is that really big serpents will look great in a cardgame!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found another one in the goddess of &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Norse mythology, [Freyja][4] is a goddess associated with **war, death, love, sex, beauty, fertility, gold, and [seiðr][5].**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Qetesh][6] is a goddess who was adopted during the late Bronze Age from the religion of [Canaan][7] into the ancient Egyptian religion during its New Kingdom. She was a **fertility goddess** of **sacred ecstasy** and **sexual pleasure** and became a popular deity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rmungandr&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apep&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/apep.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freyja&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sei%C3%B0r&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qetesh&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Canaanite_religion" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18469" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5542" RevisionGUID="3032d742-1e47-4a00-bb73-40e3d4c8eff9" CreationDate="2019-03-21T18:32:00.220" UserId="5093" Text="In Greek mythology Hephaestus is said to be the only ugly god among Olympians, but why was this the case? I know he was born this way and later thrown of Olympus by Hera, but as a god he should've had the ability to change his appearance. So why didn't he just changed himself into being beautiful?  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18470" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5542" RevisionGUID="3032d742-1e47-4a00-bb73-40e3d4c8eff9" CreationDate="2019-03-21T18:32:00.220" UserId="5093" Text="Why was Hephaestus ugly?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18471" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5542" RevisionGUID="3032d742-1e47-4a00-bb73-40e3d4c8eff9" CreationDate="2019-03-21T18:32:00.220" UserId="5093" Text="|greek|olympians|hephaestus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18472" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5543" RevisionGUID="0646a5d2-6b79-427e-b75b-35cd36a063e2" CreationDate="2019-03-21T19:48:33.437" UserId="2682" Text="Two modern scholars, in their analyses of this obscure reference to the character in question, both point out a certain apocryphal connection between Eurymedon and Hera. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his 1993 book *Early Greek Myth: A Guide to Literary and Artistic Sources*, Timothy Gantz discusses (on p. 57) Scholion Ab for *Iliad* 14.295-296, which he tells us is &quot;credited to Euphorion&quot;, as well as part of Scholion T. The story told in these scholia &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; suggests that Hera, while in the house of her parents, was raped by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eurymedon (one of the Gigantes) and bore Prometheus, to whom Zeus was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thus understandably hostile.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;(In this section of the same chapter, Gantz contends with the potential chronological issues involved in having this event transpire in Hera's parents' house, considering the other much better known story that renders Hera undoubtedly unavailable for this piece of drama because she would have been trapped inside her father's belly at the time.)&lt;/sub&gt;     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Robin Hard, writing in *The Routledge Handbook of Greek Mythology: Based on H.J. Rose's &quot;Handbook of Greek Mythology&quot;* (2004: 88), &quot;Homer alludes to Gigantes on three occasions in the Odyssey.&quot; In the third instance thereof,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; we are told that a certain Eurymedon once ruled over the over-bearing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Giants but brought destruction on himself and his people (in unstated&#xD;&#xA;&gt; circumstances). There is no reason to suppose that the latter story&#xD;&#xA;&gt; has anything to do with a revolt against the gods... According to a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tale ascribed to the Hellenistic poet Euphorion, Hera was raped by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Giant Eurymedon while she was still living at home with her parents&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and bore to him Prometheus as a son. When Zeus came to learn of this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after marrying her, he hurled Eurymedon down to Tartaros and ordered&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that Prometheus should be thrown into chains, using his theft of fire&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as a pretext. The obscure reference to Erymedon (*sic*) in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Odyssey* must have inspired the invention of this revisionist myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When I first read about the Giant Eurymedon I assumed that his story was the same as that of the Gigantomachy, or at least closely connected to it in some way. Aaron Atsma of The Theoi Project website seems to have arrived at the same conclusion, saying that Eurymedon &quot;was probably the same as Alkyoneus or Porphyrion who are named as the king of the Gigantes by other writers.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have found no ancient reference to Alkyoneus [Alcyoneus] as any kind of king, although he does seem to have been a special sort of champion among the Gigantes, bearing the unique invincibility of bouncing back from death upon being slain on his home turf. He is similar to his half-brother the giant Antaios [Antaeus] in this, except that Alkyoneus had to be dragged across the border of his land in order to put a decisive end to this uncanny power of resuscitation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most direct link between Eurymedon and Alkyoneus is that both are said to have had a number of daughters, an unspecified number in the former's case while Alkyoneus is credited with seven. None of Alkyoneus' offspring, however, is named Periboia [Periboea], as is Eurymedon's youngest, thus making that link more tenuous.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the case of Porphyrion, Pindar does explicitly call him &quot;king of the Gigantes&quot;. Apollodorus, in his account of the Gigantomachy, relates the somewhat bizarre stratagem employed by Zeus in the fight against his enemy leader.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Porphyrion rushed against Herakles [Heracles] and also Hera. Zeus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; instilled him with a passion for Hera, and when he tore her gown and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wanted to rape her, she called for help, whereat Zeus hit him with a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thunderbolt and Herakles slew him with an arrow.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The coincidences of details between the narratives of Eurymedon and Porphyrion warrant the raising of at least one eyebrow, I would say: each one is a Giant king who is said to come to a bad end after violating Hera (or attempting to do so), with Zeus playing a major role in either story. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, the introduction to your Question might allow that Eurymedon is merely a title rather than a proper name, perhaps for King Porphyrion &quot;Who Rules Far and Wide.&quot; Eurymedon is after all an epithet of the hero Perseus as well as the gods Poseidon and Hermes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An ancient work called the *Recognitions* is (apparently dubiously) ascribed to Clement of Alexandria, who would have written in Greek. However the *Recognitions* survives presently only in Latin translation, and in its 10th book, Zeus is said to have had a son named Coron [Koron?] by Leandia [Leandeia?], &quot;the daughter of Eurymedon&quot;. It's a pet speculation of mine that this is the Giant Eurymedon and thus that Leand[e]ia is one of the *Odyssey*'s unnamed sisters of Periboia.   " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18473" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5538" RevisionGUID="072c75bf-1940-4a5f-aaf7-9ce487055b67" CreationDate="2019-03-22T00:17:46.190" UserId="5726" Comment="added tags and links" Text="I have read a bit about the [five suns world creation][1] myth, and I am curious if the original peoples of Mesoamerica believed in other sentient beings similar to the fairies, centaurs and such of European mythology and folklore. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have read about the &quot;wood people&quot; but I am curious if there are more.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Suns" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18474" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5538" RevisionGUID="072c75bf-1940-4a5f-aaf7-9ce487055b67" CreationDate="2019-03-22T00:17:46.190" UserId="5726" Comment="added tags and links" Text="|mythical-creatures|comparative|native-american|mesoamerica|aztec|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18475" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5538" RevisionGUID="072c75bf-1940-4a5f-aaf7-9ce487055b67" CreationDate="2019-03-22T00:17:46.190" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 2807, 5906 edit id of 1715" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18480" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5546" RevisionGUID="ab930889-78a4-404f-abdb-3e5a000fc3f8" CreationDate="2019-03-23T09:18:28.653" UserId="2682" Text="**Making the Descent**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The information I have encountered about the ancient Mesopotamian conception of the Underworld would seem to contradict the statement that the dead dwelt in any sort of &quot;vibrant&quot; place or if even their realm could be described as possessing &quot;cities&quot;. It does seem to be indeed &quot;very similar to the land of the living&quot; in the conspicuous aspect of the climate of *Mesopotamia* specifically, especially the dry dustiness of the deserts therein.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Assyrian religion and mythology seem to fit neatly within the continuum of Mesopotamian beliefs and customs in general, particularly linked with Babylonia. As far as I am aware the only Assyrian &quot;tale&quot; featuring the Underworld appears in what is now a badly damaged text, from the 600s BC, whose material was patched together into a somewhat cohesive narrative in the 20th century by Wolfram von Soden under the title *Die Unterweltsvision eines assyrischen Kronprinzen*, &quot;The Underworld Vision of an Assyrian Crown Prince.&quot; As the title suggests, its focus is not &quot;regular people&quot; at all, nor is it even particularly about &quot;the afterlife&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding it, though, Seth L. Sanders calls it &quot;The First Tour of Hell&quot; in a 2009 article (bearing that preceding title) in which he describes it as &quot;The oldest known visionary journey to hell&quot;. He goes on to say that: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As a forerunner of the apocalyptic otherworldly journey and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; visionary Tour of Hell, its lineage includes the books of Enoch, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Revelation* of John, and Dante's *Inferno*... The text's interpretation has been hampered by its very distinctiveness: in 2,000&#xD;&#xA;&gt; years of cuneiform literature, there are no other examples of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; genre it represents, and its nearest relative is the Enochic Book of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Watchers, which first appears in Qumranic Aramaic manuscripts of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the second century B.C.E.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eileen Gardiner's Hell-On-Line website summarises the story from the text as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kummâ, a bold Assyrian prince, seeks a vision of the world of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ereshkigal and her consort Nergal, lord of Kur. In a dream-like way,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kummâ describes the fifteen monstrous gods he encounters there whose&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bodies are composites of humans, birds and other animals. After being&#xD;&#xA;&gt; exposed to the terror and utter stillness of the place, Kummâ finally&#xD;&#xA;&gt; meets Nergal who, on the brink of killing Kummâ, shrieks at him in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wrath. Nergal’s counselor negotiates with Nergal to spare Kummâ so&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that he is sent back to the world to spread Nergal’s fame.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Universität Duisburg-Essen, Institut für Evangelische Theologie, which supplies an English translation of the text [here](https://www.uni-due.de/~gev020/courses/course-stuff/meso-visionkumma-foster.htm), spells the prince's name as Kumaya, saying that: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Much of this bizarre narrative remains obscure, owing to the bad&#xD;&#xA;&gt; condition [of] the single manuscript that preserves it. The narrative was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; composed by a scribe who professed to set down the exact words of an&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Assyrian prince who had [a] vision of the netherworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Broader Region**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The deities featured in Kumaya's vision are major characters in Babylonian myths and stories from elsewhere in Mesopotamia, so it should be safe to assume that the Assyrians imagined the Underworld in the same manner as did their fellow Mesopotamians: a miserably dark, dry, cavernous space under the earth where there wasn't much to do, and the only food was dust. The realm was ruled over by the god Nergal and his wife Ereshkigal, both of whom were of rather cruel aspect. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding what transpires after death, Eileen Gardiner says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Our understanding of Sumerian, Akkadian, Babylonian and Assyrian&#xD;&#xA;&gt; notions of the afterlife are derived from a series of texts that span&#xD;&#xA;&gt; an extraordinary timeframe and cultural spectrum, are impossible to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; date precisely, and most likely reflect ideas that predate the time of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; composition. These texts may even present somewhat contradictory views&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the afterlife. For these reasons, our understanding of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mesopotamian otherworld is sketchy at best. Yet, we have a handful of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; significant texts and astounding archaeological remains.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Burial Practice for Example**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She goes on to describe an Anglo-American archaeological expedition at the Sumerian city of Ur (admittedly antedating the Assyrian period) which turned up the burial chamber of a queen who was buried with &quot;a rich hoard of valuable goods and the bodies of a handful of personal attendants who had followed the deceased into the burial place before it was sealed from the outside.&quot; There were additionally yet more servants as well as soldiers, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; chariots and carts and their drivers, plus horses and oxen with their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; grooms who entered the pit bearing rich grave goods. Sentinels stood&#xD;&#xA;&gt; at the bottom of the ramp guarding the entrance to the pit as each man&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and woman in the pit drank the poison that would include them in this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; entourage to the otherworld.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Mesopotamian otherworld included a heavenly realm of everlasting&#xD;&#xA;&gt; life for the gods, where the only mortal permitted entry was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Utnapishtim, a prototype of Noah...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The lower otherworld, Kur or Kurnugi, a region of dust or clay beneath&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the surface of the earth, but above the nether waters (apsu), included&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the seven-gated palace of Ganzir. Mortals inhabited Kur after death&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and the place was itself equated with death. It was not a place of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; purgation or damnation, but simply the permanent lot of mortals. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; only activity in this empty afterlife was eating and drinking and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sole comestible was dust. People of rank, however, brought goods to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sustain them, as well as servants to serve them.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Studying the Mesopotamian Kur it is hard to ignore the prevalence of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dust and the similarity between this dusty and quiet world of mortals&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after death and both the climate of the land and the early burial&#xD;&#xA;&gt; practices in this region. Here bodies were placed in underground caves&#xD;&#xA;&gt; or in grave shafts or left to desiccate on an open bench in a tomb&#xD;&#xA;&gt; before being moved to a secondary burial spot without the coffins or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sarcophagi that were only introduced later. In both burial and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; otherworld there is an oppressive prevalence of dust and dirt.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Mesopotamian underworld did not develop into a place of punishment&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for the souls of individuals who led a wicked life in this world. Here&#xD;&#xA;&gt; souls of the dead were simply warehoused in a state of sensual&#xD;&#xA;&gt; deprivation ruled over by the underworld gods — a long, gray, dusty&#xD;&#xA;&gt; existence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the &quot;Ancient Mesopotamian underworld&quot; Wikipedia article, the realm of the dead had many names in both Sumerian and Akkadian, including Irkalla, Kukku, Arali and Kigal (for the last of these cf. &quot;Ereshkigal,&quot; the goddess and queen of Kigal) in the former, and Erṣetu in the latter. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Additional Features and Details** (culled from the aforementioned Wikipedia article)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The dead appeared before Ereshkigal, who pronounced them deceased,&#xD;&#xA;   &quot;and their names would be recorded by the scribal goddess&#xD;&#xA;   Geshtinanna.&quot;&#xD;&#xA; - &quot;[F]amily members of the deceased would... pour libations into the&#xD;&#xA;   dead person's grave through a clay pipe, thereby allowing the dead to&#xD;&#xA;   drink. For this reason, it was considered essential to have as many&#xD;&#xA;   offspring as possible so that one's descendants could continue to&#xD;&#xA;   provide libations for the dead person to drink for many years. Those&#xD;&#xA;   who had died without descendants would suffer the most in the&#xD;&#xA;   underworld, because they would have nothing to drink at all.&quot;&#xD;&#xA; - According to Jeremy Black &amp; Anthony Green, &quot;Those who did not receive&#xD;&#xA;   a proper burial, such as those who had died in fires and whose bodies&#xD;&#xA;   had been burned or those who died alone in the desert, would have no&#xD;&#xA;   existence in the underworld at all, but would simply cease to exist.&quot;&#xD;&#xA; - J. Black &amp; A. Green are again cited as the source for the information&#xD;&#xA;   that: &quot;Sometimes the dead are described as naked or clothed in&#xD;&#xA;   feathers like birds.&quot;&#xD;&#xA; - &quot;The entrance to Kur was believed to be located in the Zagros&#xD;&#xA;   mountains in the far east. A staircase led down to the gates of the&#xD;&#xA;   underworld. The underworld itself is usually located even deeper&#xD;&#xA;   below ground than the Abzu, the body of freshwater which the ancient&#xD;&#xA;   Mesopotamians believed lay deep beneath the earth. In other,&#xD;&#xA;   conflicting traditions, however, it seems to be located at a remote&#xD;&#xA;   and inaccessible location on earth, possibly somewhere in the far&#xD;&#xA;   west.&quot; (Sourced from J. Black &amp; A. Green)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Gates and Gods**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a series of seven gates, supplied with bolts, leading to the throne-room of Nergal and Ereshkigal. Several deities and numerous demons populate the land of the dead. They are listed in [the aforementioned Wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Mesopotamian_underworld), which see. The following are most of the ones who appear in the vision of Kumaya:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Namtar**, &quot;courier of the netherworld,&quot; a son of Ereshkigal; and his&#xD;&#xA;   female counterpart **Namtartu**, who &quot;had the head of a protective&#xD;&#xA;   spirit&quot;.&#xD;&#xA; - &quot;Death&quot;, who had a dragon's head&#xD;&#xA; - &quot;Evil-Spirit&quot;, whose head, which looked human, was crowned, and who had human hands and the feet of an eagle&#xD;&#xA; - **Alluhappu**, who had a lion's head, four human hands and human feet&#xD;&#xA; - &quot;'Upholder-of-Evil' had the head of a bird, his wings were opened as&#xD;&#xA;   he flew to and fro,&quot; and he had human hands and feet.&#xD;&#xA; - &quot;'Take-Away-Quickly', boatman of the netherworld, had the head of&#xD;&#xA;   Anzu {a mythical giant bird}, four hands and feet.&quot;&#xD;&#xA; - &quot;Malignant Phantom&quot; had a lion's head, and the hands and feet of&#xD;&#xA;   Anzu.&#xD;&#xA; - **Shulak** appeared as a lion rearing up on its hind legs.&#xD;&#xA; - **Mamitu** had a goat's head, and human hands and feet.&#xD;&#xA; - **Pituh**, &quot;gatekeeper of the netherworld,&quot; had a lion's head, human&#xD;&#xA;   hands and a bird's feet.&#xD;&#xA; - &quot;'Whatever-is-Evil' had two heads, one a lion's head, the other...&#xD;&#xA;   [*lacuna*]&quot;&#xD;&#xA; - &quot;**Muhra** had three feet, the two front ones were bird's feet, the rear&#xD;&#xA;   was that of an ox, it had terrifying splendor.&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18482" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5546" RevisionGUID="5904c062-d277-443c-9017-9463894ef18e" CreationDate="2019-03-23T18:15:24.733" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar, improved formatting &amp; tweaked some details" Text="**Making the Descent**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The information I have encountered about the ancient Mesopotamian conception of the Underworld would seem to contradict the statement that the dead dwelt in any sort of &quot;vibrant&quot; place or if even their realm could be described as possessing &quot;cities&quot;. It does seem to be indeed &quot;very similar to the land of the living&quot; in the conspicuous aspect of the climate of *Mesopotamia* specifically, especially the dry dustiness of the deserts therein.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Assyrian religion and mythology seem to fit neatly within the continuum of Mesopotamian beliefs and customs in general, having inherited them from Babylonia. As far as I am aware the only Assyrian &quot;tale&quot; featuring the Underworld appears in what is now a badly damaged text, from the 600s BC, whose material was patched together into a somewhat cohesive narrative in the 20th century by Wolfram von Soden under the title *Die Unterweltsvision eines assyrischen Kronprinzen*, &quot;The Underworld Vision of an Assyrian Crown Prince.&quot; As the title suggests, its focus is not &quot;regular people&quot; at all, nor is it even particularly about &quot;the afterlife&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding it, though, Seth L. Sanders calls it &quot;The First Tour of Hell&quot; in a 2009 article (bearing that preceding title) in which he describes it as &quot;The oldest known visionary journey to hell&quot;. He goes on to say that: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;As a forerunner of the apocalyptic otherworldly journey and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; visionary Tour of Hell, its lineage includes the books of Enoch, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Revelation* of John, and Dante's *Inferno*... The text's interpretation has been hampered by its very distinctiveness: in 2,000&#xD;&#xA;&gt; years of cuneiform literature, there are no other examples of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; genre it represents, and its nearest relative is the Enochic Book of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Watchers, which first appears in Qumranic Aramaic manuscripts of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the second century B.C.E.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eileen Gardiner's Hell-On-Line website summarises the story from the text as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kummâ, a bold Assyrian prince, seeks a vision of the world of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ereshkigal and her consort Nergal, lord of Kur. In a dream-like way,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kummâ describes the fifteen monstrous gods he encounters there whose&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bodies are composites of humans, birds and other animals. After being&#xD;&#xA;&gt; exposed to the terror and utter stillness of the place, Kummâ finally&#xD;&#xA;&gt; meets Nergal who, on the brink of killing Kummâ, shrieks at him in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wrath. Nergal’s counselor negotiates with Nergal to spare Kummâ so&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that he is sent back to the world to spread Nergal’s fame.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Universität Duisburg-Essen, Institut für Evangelische Theologie, which supplies an English translation of the text [here](https://www.uni-due.de/~gev020/courses/course-stuff/meso-visionkumma-foster.htm), spells the prince's name as Kumaya, saying that: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Much of this bizarre narrative remains obscure, owing to the bad&#xD;&#xA;&gt; condition [of] the single manuscript that preserves it. The narrative was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; composed by a scribe who professed to set down the exact words of an&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Assyrian prince who had [a] vision of the netherworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Broader Region**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The deities featured in Kumaya's vision are major characters in Babylonian myths and in stories from elsewhere in Mesopotamia, so it should be safe to assume that the Assyrians imagined the Underworld in the same manner as did their fellow Mesopotamians: a miserably dark, dry, cavernous space under the earth where there wasn't much to do, and the only food was dust. The realm was ruled over by the god Nergal and his wife Ereshkigal, both of whom were of rather cruel aspect. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding what transpires after death, Eileen Gardiner says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Our understanding of Sumerian, Akkadian, Babylonian and Assyrian&#xD;&#xA;&gt; notions of the afterlife are derived from a series of texts that span&#xD;&#xA;&gt; an extraordinary timeframe and cultural spectrum, are impossible to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; date precisely, and most likely reflect ideas that predate the time of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; composition. These texts may even present somewhat contradictory views&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the afterlife. For these reasons, our understanding of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mesopotamian otherworld is sketchy at best. Yet, we have a handful of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; significant texts and astounding archaeological remains.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Burial Practice for Example**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She goes on to describe a 1920s Anglo-American archaeological expedition at the Sumerian city of Ur (admittedly antedating the Assyrian period) which turned up the burial chamber of a queen who was interred with &quot;a rich hoard of valuable goods and the bodies of a handful of personal attendants who had followed the deceased into the burial place before it was sealed from the outside.&quot; There were additionally yet more servants as well as soldiers, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;chariots and carts and their drivers, plus horses and oxen with their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; grooms who entered the pit bearing rich grave goods. Sentinels stood&#xD;&#xA;&gt; at the bottom of the ramp guarding the entrance to the pit as each man&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and woman in the pit drank the poison that would include them in this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; entourage to the otherworld.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;The Mesopotamian otherworld included a heavenly realm of everlasting&#xD;&#xA;&gt; life for the gods, where the only mortal permitted entry was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Utnapishtim, a prototype of Noah...&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;The lower otherworld, Kur or Kurnugi, a region of dust or clay beneath&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the surface of the earth, but above the nether waters (apsu), included&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the seven-gated palace of Ganzir. Mortals inhabited Kur after death&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and the place was itself equated with death...&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Studying the Mesopotamian Kur it is hard to ignore the prevalence of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dust and the similarity between this dusty and quiet world of mortals&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after death and both the climate of the land and the early burial&#xD;&#xA;&gt; practices in this region. Here bodies were placed in underground caves&#xD;&#xA;&gt; or in grave shafts or left to desiccate on an open bench in a tomb&#xD;&#xA;&gt; before being moved to a secondary burial spot without the coffins or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sarcophagi that were only introduced later. In both burial and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; otherworld there is an oppressive prevalence of dust and dirt.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;The Mesopotamian underworld did not develop into a place of punishment&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for the souls of individuals who led a wicked life in this world. Here&#xD;&#xA;&gt; souls of the dead were simply warehoused in a state of sensual&#xD;&#xA;&gt; deprivation ruled over by the underworld gods — a long, gray, dusty&#xD;&#xA;&gt; existence.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the &quot;Ancient Mesopotamian underworld&quot; Wikipedia article, the realm of the dead had many names in both Sumerian and Akkadian, including **Irkalla**, **Kukku**, **Arali** and **Kigal** (for the last of these cf. *Ereshkigal*, the goddess and queen of Kigal, literally, &quot;Queen of the Great Earth&quot;) in the former, and **Erṣetu** in the latter. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Additional Features and Details** (culled from the aforementioned Wikipedia article)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The dead appeared before Ereshkigal, who pronounced them deceased,&#xD;&#xA;   &quot;and their names would be recorded by the scribal goddess&#xD;&#xA;   Geshtinanna.&quot;&#xD;&#xA; - &quot;[F]amily members of the deceased would... pour libations into the&#xD;&#xA;   dead person's grave through a clay pipe, thereby allowing the dead to&#xD;&#xA;   drink. For this reason, it was considered essential to have as many&#xD;&#xA;   offspring as possible so that one's descendants could continue to&#xD;&#xA;   provide libations for the dead person to drink for many years. Those&#xD;&#xA;   who had died without descendants would suffer the most in the&#xD;&#xA;   underworld, because they would have nothing to drink at all.&quot;&#xD;&#xA; - According to Jeremy Black &amp; Anthony Green, &quot;Those who did not receive&#xD;&#xA;   a proper burial, such as those who had died in fires and whose bodies&#xD;&#xA;   had been burned or those who died alone in the desert, would have no&#xD;&#xA;   existence in the underworld at all, but would simply cease to exist.&quot;&#xD;&#xA; - J. Black &amp; A. Green are again cited as the source for the information&#xD;&#xA;   that: &quot;Sometimes the dead are described as naked or clothed in&#xD;&#xA;   feathers like birds.&quot;&#xD;&#xA; - &quot;The entrance to Kur was believed to be located in the Zagros&#xD;&#xA;   mountains in the far east. A staircase led down to the gates of the&#xD;&#xA;   underworld. The underworld itself is usually located even deeper&#xD;&#xA;   below ground than the Abzu, the body of freshwater which the ancient&#xD;&#xA;   Mesopotamians believed lay deep beneath the earth. In other,&#xD;&#xA;   conflicting traditions, however, it seems to be located at a remote&#xD;&#xA;   and inaccessible location on earth, possibly somewhere in the far&#xD;&#xA;   west&quot; (sourced from Black &amp; Green).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Gates and Gods**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a series of seven gates, supplied with bolts, leading to the throne-room of Nergal and Ereshkigal. Several deities and numerous demons populate the land of the dead. They are listed in [the aforementioned Wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Mesopotamian_underworld), which see. The following are most of the ones who appear in the vision of Kumaya:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Namtar**, &quot;courier of the netherworld,&quot; a son of Ereshkigal; and his&#xD;&#xA;   female counterpart **Namtartu**, who &quot;had the head of a protective&#xD;&#xA;   spirit&quot;.&#xD;&#xA; - &quot;Death&quot;, who had a dragon's head&#xD;&#xA; - &quot;Evil-Spirit&quot;, whose head, which looked human, was crowned, and who had human hands and the feet of an eagle&#xD;&#xA; - **Alluhappu**, who had a lion's head, four human hands and human feet&#xD;&#xA; - &quot;'Upholder-of-Evil' had the head of a bird, his wings were opened as&#xD;&#xA;   he flew to and fro,&quot; and he had human hands and feet.&#xD;&#xA; - &quot;'Take-Away-Quickly', boatman of the netherworld, had the head of&#xD;&#xA;   Anzu {a mythical giant bird},&quot; and four hands.&#xD;&#xA; - &quot;Malignant Phantom&quot;, who had a lion's head, and the hands and feet of&#xD;&#xA;   Anzu&#xD;&#xA; - **Shulak** appeared as a lion rearing up on its hind legs.&#xD;&#xA; - **Mamitu** had a goat's head, and human hands and feet.&#xD;&#xA; - **Pituh**, &quot;gatekeeper of the netherworld,&quot; had a lion's head, human&#xD;&#xA;   hands and a bird's feet.&#xD;&#xA; - &quot;'Whatever-is-Evil' had two heads, one a lion's head, the other...&#xD;&#xA;   [*lacuna*]&quot;&#xD;&#xA; - &quot;**Muhra** had three feet, the two front ones were bird's feet, the rear&#xD;&#xA;   was that of an ox, it had terrifying splendor.&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18483" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4690" RevisionGUID="4fd70fb3-a28f-48f3-a143-eb3f41851c90" CreationDate="2019-03-24T21:22:27.913" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="18489" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2458" RevisionGUID="a24ad997-5db6-48e6-a3b5-0d82dd9c493f" CreationDate="2019-03-25T19:05:06.503" UserId="2892" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="Yannis [essentially answers the question here](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2419/2892), but I'll add a little detail, just for fun, using poetry *(since the deepest insights come from great poets)* and linguistics.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;T.S. Eliot writes about this very specifically:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The dove descending breaks the air&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;With flame of incandescent terror&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Of which the tongues declare&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The one dischage from sin and error.&lt;br&gt; &#xD;&#xA;The only hope, or else despair&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Lies in the choice of pyre of pyre-&lt;br&gt; &#xD;&#xA;To be redeemed from fire by fire.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Who then devised the torment? Love.&lt;br&gt; &#xD;&#xA;Love is the unfamiliar Name&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Behind the hands that wove &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The intolerable shirt of flame&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Which human power cannot remove.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;We only live, only suspire &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Consumed by either fire or fire.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Little Gidding][1]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Ancient Greek word for fire is &quot;pur&quot; ([πῦρ][2]) from which we derive pyre and purify.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Four Quartets and other works, Eliot connects these ideas from the Upanishads, through Greek Mythology and into Christian lore. Fire, is, of course, very important in Hindu mythology, and the Christian conception of love as [agape][3] grows out of ancient Greek explorations of the deeper meaning of love beyond [eros][4].  Eliot purposely conflates eros and agape in this poem.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is the romantic jealousy of Nessus that &quot;weaves&quot; the poison shirt, Deianira's love for her husband that brings it to him, but in the Christian conception, it is love that redeems us from the inextricable suffering of existence. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's not clear that Heracles can die--part of his myth is his defeat of death (Alcestis), and his travel to and return from the underworld.  Jumping off a cliff or opening his veins or falling on his sword may not have worked. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But by burning himself alive, he experiences suffering so excruciating that Zeus takes pity of him and releases him from the mortal coil. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pity was a very important concept to the Greeks.  It humanizes, as in the death of Hector, breaker of horses.  It was deeply religious, in that catharsis was the intent of Greek drama.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The purification and burning away of the mortal flesh can be said to be the foremost meaning, but pity is the key.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Heracles' agony is what gets Hera to relent, according to Ovid:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Come Juno, feast upon my death;&#xD;&#xA;feast on me, cruel one, look down from your&#xD;&#xA;exalted seat; behold my dreadful end&#xD;&#xA;and glut your savage heart! Oh, if I may&#xD;&#xA;deserve some pity from my enemy,&#xD;&#xA;from you I mean, this hateful life of mine&#xD;&#xA;take from me—sick with cruel suffering&#xD;&#xA;and only born for toil. The loss of life&#xD;&#xA;will be a boon to me, and surely is&#xD;&#xA;a fitting boon, such as stepmothers give!&quot;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[\[Metamorphoses, Book IX\]][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later in the section:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Gods felt fear&#xD;&#xA;for earth's defender and their sympathy&#xD;&#xA;gave pleasure to Saturnian Jove&lt;br&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[\[Metamorphoses, Book IX\]][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And all the gods, including Hera, acquiesce to Heracles deification and release from suffering.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is worth noting that Eliot concludes the Four Quartets with:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And all shall be well and&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;All manner of thing shall be well&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;When the tongues of flame are in-folded&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Into the crowned knot of fire&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And the fire and the rose are one.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Little Gidding][1]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;ON THE DOVE: The dove is a symbol that has many connotations, particularly in the wider scope of Eliot's poem.  The dove is generally associated with Aphrodite (love) but there is evidence of association with Hera also.  (Doves are monogamous during mating season, and monogamy is the domain of Hera.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “…it is significant that the dove was one of Hera’s sacred birds.  Doves were found in association with her temples at Argos and Delos, and related stature even depicts Hera with wings. (O’Brien 1993, 73;178, fig. 22; 227-31)  This iconography and Homer’s characterization of her in the [*Iliad* (5.778-9)][6] as one who moved ‘like a quivering dove” suggest that one of Hera’s early epiphanies may have been as a dove.” &lt;br&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Source: T[he Cult of Divine Birth In Ancient Greece, Rigoglioso, M. 2009, p.129\]][7]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An in-depth discussion on the etymology of Hera may be found in The *[Transformation of Hera: A Study of Ritual, Hero, and the Goddess in the Iliad][8]* by Joan V. O'Brien, Professor of Classics at Southern Illinois University, Carbondale.  The book references the association of Hera with the dove including pp.48, 114, 195, 228, 230, and most notably on page 207: “In the search for submerged images of God, those of the early Hera offer some interesting possibilities: a Soaring Dove bringing birth and death…”  On pp.186-187 O'Brien also links Hera and Aphrodite.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I believe there is also a credible hypothesis that Hera could be a feminine form of the masculine Eros, although I am having difficultly tracking that down at the moment. (When I find an academic reference I will amend.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.columbia.edu/itc/history/winter/w3206/edit/tseliotlittlegidding.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%E1%BF%A6%CF%81&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agape&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eros&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D172&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D5%3Acard%3D764&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://books.google.com/books?id=ifrHAAAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA129&amp;lpg=PA129&amp;dq=hera%20dove&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=kdi7w_H4kE&amp;sig=7dm74SMEaiR3NB1vatUoBM_xmoc&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwje4qq3n9TSAhWL7YMKHYrVD9MQ6AEIUTAM#v=onepage&amp;q=hera%20dove&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://books.google.com/books?id=a77yKM26GfYC&amp;pg=PA114&amp;lpg=PA114&amp;dq=hera%20dove&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=45stBJV4wR&amp;sig=kiFxVAe3olkEO6eqhh26CrK5Lgc&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwj0_ImHodTSAhVl2oMKHYj-DzoQ6AEIRjAK#v=onepage&amp;q=hera%20dove&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18490" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5549" RevisionGUID="1b14c777-7d2f-413a-83f1-88d51aef3cc4" CreationDate="2019-03-25T22:33:10.727" UserId="4171" Text="**A quick warning to all, for obvious reasons this question will be very explicit.** But to the point, when Carl Jung was a small boy he had the following thoughts on being overwhelmed by the beauty of a cathedral ... &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *&quot;The world is beautiful and the church is beautiful, and God made all&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this and sits above it far away in the blue sky on a golden throne&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and...&quot; Here came a great hole in my thoughts, and a choking&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sensation. I felt numbed, and knew only: &quot;Don't go on thinking now!&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Something terrible is coming, something I do not want to think [...] The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; most terrible sin is the sin against the Holy Ghost, which cannot be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; forgiven.&quot; [...] I gathered all my courage, as though I were about to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; leap forthwith into hell-fire, and let the thought come. I saw before&#xD;&#xA;&gt; me the cathedral, the blue sky. God sits on His golden throne, high&#xD;&#xA;&gt; above the world-and from under the throne an enormous turd falls upon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the sparkling new roof, shatters it, and breaks the walls of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cathedral asunder.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;- **Carl Jung, Memories Dreams Reflections***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jung is far from alone in observing that the scatological may go hand in hand with the sacred. In mythology, Horus tricking Set into eating his semen, or Odin shitting out the mead of poetry both leap immediately to mind. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**What are examples of myths or religious stories that combine the sacred and the scatological?** And, secondarily, if I wanted to read more about the connection between them from a theoretical standpoint is there an clear place to start? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To avoid being too broad, I'd like to narrowly define &quot;scatological&quot; as involving excreta (that is, excluding mere sex acts, sexual icons and sacred phalli, obscene language, etc.), in particular: piss, shit, semen, vomit, and sometimes blood - contaminating bodily fluids working for at least apparently profane and transgressive purposes, whether these are humorous, serious, or mystical. The grosser the better, naturally, and also the greater the contrast between sacred and profane." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18491" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5549" RevisionGUID="1b14c777-7d2f-413a-83f1-88d51aef3cc4" CreationDate="2019-03-25T22:33:10.727" UserId="4171" Text="What are some myths that combine the scatological and the sacred?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18492" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5549" RevisionGUID="1b14c777-7d2f-413a-83f1-88d51aef3cc4" CreationDate="2019-03-25T22:33:10.727" UserId="4171" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18493" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5550" RevisionGUID="fa78456c-883e-4d0a-aead-35972f39010a" CreationDate="2019-03-26T08:54:20.053" UserId="57" Text="The Mojave creator deity Matevilye (alt. Matavilya, Mutavilya) died from an illness caused by his daughter eating his excrement:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to the Mohave, the first were the sky, a man, and the earth, a woman. These met far in the west, and from them were born, first Matevilye, and after him his daughter the frog, Mastamho who is usually called his younger brother, all the people, the animals, and plants. All these went upward toward the east, under the leadership of Matevilye. Matevilye himself did not walk. He merely moved four times, twice to the left and twice to the right. Thereby he arrived at Ahavulypo, a narrow defile on the Colorado River above Cottonwood Island, probably near the lower end of Eldorado Canyon. He stretched out his arms to the ends of the world and thereby found this spot to be the centre of the earth. Here he built a house. He became sick because the frog his daughter, whom he had offended by an indecency, ate his excrement; and it was known that he would die. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When he died, Coyote, whose intentions were suspected, was sent far away to bring fire for the funeral pyre. During Coyote's absence fire was produced among the people by the fly, a woman, who rubbed her thigh. Matevilye was then burned. According to the usual account, although this episode does not form part of the version on which the present relation is based, Coyote returned as the pyre was in flames. The people surrounded this in a close ring. Coyote succeeded in leaping over the head of the badger, who was short, seized Matevilye's heart, and escaped with it. Under the direction of Mastamho the people then made for Matevilye the first mourning ceremony in the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Two Myths of the Mission Indians of California. A. L. Kroeber. The Journal of American Folklore Vol. 19, No. 75 (Oct. - Dec., 1906), pp. 309-321&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18496" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5465" RevisionGUID="f3180248-c70c-4056-a070-ea6fd2d1b6dc" CreationDate="2019-03-26T08:59:39.677" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 43 characters in body" Text="The swastika is one of the oldest symbols in Rock Art and its many derivative forms date back tens of thousands of years. At one time virtually all cultures used it to signify either the four cardinal points North South East and West or the four seasons or both. As people migrate they take their signs and symbols with them so it is today found globally. Hitler adopted it because he associated it with Aryan peoples but it originated long before it appeared in Northern Europe. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18499" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="4677" RevisionGUID="cff9c108-ceb6-46f2-91f1-a49800040825" CreationDate="2019-03-26T09:04:54.313" UserId="57" Comment="79" />
  <row Id="18500" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="2302" RevisionGUID="bc5e6546-2fe6-4077-9d14-90e1432c8f20" CreationDate="2019-03-26T09:08:05.857" UserId="57" Comment="80" />
  <row Id="18501" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5550" RevisionGUID="9de800b6-b636-442e-9d05-004e854b7e80" CreationDate="2019-03-26T09:52:34.740" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 6 characters in body" Text="The Mojave creator Matevilye (alt. Matavilya, Mutavilya) died from an illness caused by his daughter eating his excrement:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to the Mohave, the first were the sky, a man, and the earth, a woman. These met far in the west, and from them were born, first Matevilye, and after him his daughter the frog, Mastamho who is usually called his younger brother, all the people, the animals, and plants. All these went upward toward the east, under the leadership of Matevilye. Matevilye himself did not walk. He merely moved four times, twice to the left and twice to the right. Thereby he arrived at Ahavulypo, a narrow defile on the Colorado River above Cottonwood Island, probably near the lower end of Eldorado Canyon. He stretched out his arms to the ends of the world and thereby found this spot to be the centre of the earth. Here he built a house. He became sick because the frog his daughter, whom he had offended by an indecency, ate his excrement; and it was known that he would die. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When he died, Coyote, whose intentions were suspected, was sent far away to bring fire for the funeral pyre. During Coyote's absence fire was produced among the people by the fly, a woman, who rubbed her thigh. Matevilye was then burned. According to the usual account, although this episode does not form part of the version on which the present relation is based, Coyote returned as the pyre was in flames. The people surrounded this in a close ring. Coyote succeeded in leaping over the head of the badger, who was short, seized Matevilye's heart, and escaped with it. Under the direction of Mastamho the people then made for Matevilye the first mourning ceremony in the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Two Myths of the Mission Indians of California. A. L. Kroeber. The Journal of American Folklore Vol. 19, No. 75 (Oct. - Dec., 1906), pp. 309-321&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18502" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5551" RevisionGUID="8b810f4b-a9b2-47c8-8443-46b23eaaeec0" CreationDate="2019-03-26T10:02:31.487" UserId="57" Text="Matevilye, a creator deity of the Mojave, offended his daughter so greatly that she killed him (in a rather bizarre fashion): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to the Mohave, the first were the sky, a man, and the earth, a woman. These met far in the west, and from them were born, first Matevilye, and after him his daughter the frog, Mastamho who is usually called his younger brother, all the people, the animals, and plants. All these went upward toward the east, under the leadership of Matevilye. Matevilye himself did not walk. He merely moved four times, twice to the left and twice to the right. Thereby he arrived at Ahavulypo, a narrow defile on the Colorado River above Cottonwood Island, probably near the lower end of Eldorado Canyon. He stretched out his arms to the ends of the world and thereby found this spot to be the centre of the earth. Here he built a house. He became sick because the frog his daughter, whom he had offended by an indecency, ate his excrement; and it was known that he would die. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Two Myths of the Mission Indians of California. A. L. Kroeber. The Journal of American Folklore Vol. 19, No. 75 (Oct. - Dec., 1906), pp. 309-321&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What was Matevilye's indecency? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18503" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5551" RevisionGUID="8b810f4b-a9b2-47c8-8443-46b23eaaeec0" CreationDate="2019-03-26T10:02:31.487" UserId="57" Text="What indecency caused the death of Matevilye?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18504" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5551" RevisionGUID="8b810f4b-a9b2-47c8-8443-46b23eaaeec0" CreationDate="2019-03-26T10:02:31.487" UserId="57" Text="|native-american|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18505" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5552" RevisionGUID="df8bb15d-09af-4ffc-8a64-1e3a64a620a1" CreationDate="2019-03-27T23:44:28.960" UserId="5921" Text="In both European and American folklore, vampires are either outright nocturnal or are weak to the sun. Therefore, wouldn't it make logical sense for them to migrate with the seasons to parts of the world with long nights?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is something I feel would be especially necessary for vampires in the folklore of northern Europe, such as the baobhan sith of the Scottish Highlands, a region that can experience as little as 6 hours per day where the sun is below the horizon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So I guess my question is: are there any vampire folklores where they migrate with the season, and if not, why don't they?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18506" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5552" RevisionGUID="df8bb15d-09af-4ffc-8a64-1e3a64a620a1" CreationDate="2019-03-27T23:44:28.960" UserId="5921" Text="Why don't vampires migrate?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18507" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5552" RevisionGUID="df8bb15d-09af-4ffc-8a64-1e3a64a620a1" CreationDate="2019-03-27T23:44:28.960" UserId="5921" Text="|vampires|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18508" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5236" RevisionGUID="afe104be-77d1-4809-8800-0822d08b5402" CreationDate="2019-03-28T05:15:58.337" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; tweaked some details" Text="**Hitherto Unknown Names; &amp; Issues with Scale**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as I can tell, by and large, what this art-form's contribution has been is pretty much just the addition to the mythology of a handful of stories and personages unattested in literature, e.g. there are a few Gigantes who fight against the gods and whose names do not occur in any currently extant ancient mythography. These are Pancrates, Euphorbus, Euboeus and (*what has to be the coolest name among the Giants*) Uranium.&lt;sup&gt;✭&lt;/sup&gt; For the most part the trickiest thing about virtually every ancient Greek art-form (particularly sculpture and pottery) and its correlation to the written stories also has to do with the Gigantes, who, at least in comparison to the gods and to humans, do not seem to have been gigantic at all! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The vases depicting Heracles' fight with the Libyan giant Antaeus generally have the two wrestling opponents at the same size. The same goes for the Gigantes who attack the town of the Olympians in what comes to be known as the Gigantomachy: they are the same sizes as their enemies, with the exception of Alcyoneus, who is usually huge in comparison to those who contend with him. The Cyclops Polyphemus is also usually about twice the size of Odysseus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps the easiest way out of this conundrum is to conclude that the painters simply didn't have enough space in which to work for the sake of portraying these characters to scale. Otherwise one might have to say that the Gigantes (and also the Titans, who, on pottery, generally are also simply the same size as deities and human beings) only gained their great stature later in writing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Snapshots of Tales Untold**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Herakles vs Geras][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;*Heracles vs Geras* on Attic red-figured pelike *[Photo Taken May 6, 2013, by Egisto Sani]*&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;There is a lost myth in which the great hero Heracles, in some context, fights against Geras, &quot;Old Age&quot; himself, presumably winning in the end(?). Perhaps the sequel to this (or vice versa) is what we do know from writings about Heracles' ultimate fate, in which he marries his own half-sister the goddess Hebe, &quot;Youth,&quot; after gaining immortality for himself. Heracles had, appropriately, also fought against and defeated Geras' brother Thanatos, &quot;Death.&quot; According to Wikipedia, Geras is primarily known from the vase paintings depicting him with Heracles.&lt;sup&gt;✭✭&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Speaking of lost myths, it is most incredible to me that there might be missing stories, floating out there in the aether, about winged Centaurs!   &#xD;&#xA;[![Winged Centaurs][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;How could it be possible that such cool creatures don't receive a single mention in any major (or even minor) myth, especially considering how prominent Centaurs are during Heracles' lifetime? Well, this being yet more &quot;lost mythology,&quot; I suppose these creatures may have appeared at any other random point in the chronology, far removed from the more famous characters.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**A More Bovine Nessus?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Heracles vs Bucentaur Nessus][3]][3]  &#xD;&#xA;And speaking of Heracles and Centaurs, here (above) the Centaur Nessus appears being manhandled by Heracles. The Centaur's lower features distinctively seem to make him into, rather than the more mainstream Hippocentaur (&quot;Horse-Centaur&quot;) variety of his kind, into a *Bu*centaur, a creature with the exact same configuration as an equine Centaur, except with the parts of a bull in place of those of a horse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;✭ Well, actually, in the original Greek *Oranion* or *Ouranion* (&quot;Small Heaven&quot;?).&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;✭✭ That image, though, depending on how you take it, perhaps frames Heracles in a really bad light, since he's really about to beat up on a little old man with his huge club.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/JC0IV.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/bGtTH.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/cUlip.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18509" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5553" RevisionGUID="14960e46-fb37-46e9-8580-02d71b9d0239" CreationDate="2019-03-28T09:05:32.043" UserId="57" Text="The ethnographer Nikolaos Politis in tale 933 of his *Paradoseis* records the belief that [vrykolakes][1], the Greek folklore version of the vampire, cannot cross the sea. Although this doesn't completely prevent migration, it severely restricts it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm not entirely aware of how widespread this belief was in the rest of the Balkans, the region where most of the vampiric lore originated from. However, it probably was widespread enough to inspire Bram Stoker to apply a similar limitation to Dracula:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He is also limited in his ability to travel, as he can only cross running water at low or high tide. Due to this, he is unable to fly across a river in the form of a bat or mist or even by himself board a boat or step off a boat onto a dock unless he is physically carried over with assistance. He is also unable to enter a place unless invited to do so by someone of the household, even a visitor; once invited, he can enter and leave the premises at will.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Wikipedia contributors. (2019, March 12). Count Dracula. In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 09:00, March 28, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Count_Dracula&amp;oldid=887434126&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Related questions: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/3028/57&#xD;&#xA;- https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/2010/57&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vrykolakas" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18511" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5555" RevisionGUID="0b754fd2-e2eb-4f2b-ad92-92165a2ceee5" CreationDate="2019-03-28T12:26:51.130" UserId="5247" Text="One narrative that famously juxtaposes the divine with the scatological or grotesque is the Old Irish Cath Maige Tuired, the text follows the conflict between the Tuatha Dé (God tribe) and the Fomorians in Ireland. One of the key characters is An Dagda (in text this is given to mean The Good-God), who at about halfway through the text it is decided that An Dagda should go to the Fomorians and seek a temporary truce. When he arrives the Fomorians hatch a plan to provide him with so much food that he will be unable to complete it, thus dishonouring them and giving them an excuse to kill him:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They put goats and sheep and swine into it, and boiled them all together with the porridge. Then they poured it into a hole in the ground, and Indech said to him that he would be killed unless he consumed it all; he should eat his fill so that he might not satirize the Fomoire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately for them, An Dagda is capable of devouring a grotesque amount of food:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then the Dagda took his ladle, and it was big enough for a man and a woman to lie in the middle of it. These are the bits that were in it: halves of salted swine and a quarter of lard.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then the Dagda said, ‘This is good food if its broth is equal to its&#xD;&#xA;&gt; taste.’ But when he would put the full ladle into his mouth he said,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ‘'Its poor bits do not spoil it,' says the wise old man.’&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Afterwards, they send him on his way, but the amount of food he's eaten has him in a disgusting state:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; His belly was as big as a house cauldron, and the Fomoire laughed at it. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It was not easy for the warrior to move along on account of the size of his belly&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;His long penis was uncovered. He had on two shoes of horse-hide with the hair outside.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While leaving he comes across a beautiful woman whom he 'desires' but is too impotent because of the size of his belly, Indech, the daughter of the Fomorian king who just hosted him. Indech, finding him in this state mocks him and wrestles him to the ground:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; She hurled him so that he sank to the hollow of his rump in the ground.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ... &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; She fell upon him again and beat him hard, so that the furrow around him filled with the excrement from his belly; and she satirized him three times so that he would carry her upon his back&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An Dagda explains that he has a taboo on carrying anyone who doesn't know all his names, so what follows is a dialogue in which An Dagda reveals one-by-one his names to Indech, half of them are either rude, grotesque, or reference his 'horniness', the rest appear to be somewhat divine names, or referring to great deeds of his. They are all difficult to read and open to multiple interpretations or puns, which I gather is the point:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Fer Benn Bruaich = Big bellied horned man (likely a reference to his prominent penis)&#xD;&#xA;- Brogaill Broumide = Large-lapped farter&#xD;&#xA;- Cerbad Caic = Cutting all / mountains (Caic may be a pun on Cacc &quot;shit&quot;)&#xD;&#xA;- Rolaig Builc = Great lying bag&#xD;&#xA;- Labair Cerrce Di Brig = Talkative hen from the hill&#xD;&#xA;- Oldathair Boith = Great-Father of being&#xD;&#xA;- Athgen mBethai Brightere = Regeneration og the World / Dry-land&#xD;&#xA;- Trí Carboid Roth = Three chariot wheels&#xD;&#xA;- Rimairie Riog Scotbe = Enumarating King of Speech&#xD;&#xA;- Obthe Olaithbe = Refusal of the great ebb&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Whitley Stokes first translated this passage to English in 1891 he didn't include the above dialogue, stating:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Much of it is obscure to me, and much of the rest is too indecent to be published in this Revue.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sources**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Cath Maige Tuired ‘The battle of Mag Tuired’][1]&#xD;&#xA;- [Names of the Dagda, Carmody, 20012 ][2]&#xD;&#xA;- [The Names of the Dagda, Martin, 2008][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.vanhamel.nl/codecs/Cath_Maige_Tuired&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://storyarchaeology.com/names-of-the-dagda/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~samarti/dagda.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18512" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5551" RevisionGUID="4e54df20-e434-430c-be2a-54b5ce5f9250" CreationDate="2019-03-28T16:55:47.990" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|native-american|mojave|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18513" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5556" RevisionGUID="d402027c-93f5-4d75-b976-50124770aa4c" CreationDate="2019-03-28T16:55:56.900" UserId="57" Text="I stumbled upon this [summary of the Mojave flood myth][1]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Many years ago, people lived under the ground. There came a time when there was no food, when the people sent a humming-bird up to see what he could find for them to eat. He saw the deep roots of a grapevine, which he followed up to the surface of the earth. The people went up through the hole and began living above ground. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One day a man looked down into the hole made by the vine, through which the people had entered the upper world, and saw that water was rising up through it. The wise ones knew that a great flood was coming and that something had to be done to save humankind. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They then cut down a great tree and hollowed it out to make a canoe, placing a young girl in it. The tree-trunk canoe floated high on the waters until nothing but water could be seen in any direction The wise ones had warned the girl not to leave the vessel until it touched land, even if she heard the waters going down. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Finally, the tree-trunk canoe touched ground. When the girl emerged, all the world had been drowned. She wondered whether she would always be alone. She went up to the mountains to rest. As she lay down, the sun shone on her, warming water that dripped down on her body from the rocks. This magic water impregnated her and she later gave birth to a daughter who conceived in the same way. All of us are descended from her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I wonder what caused the waters to rise. Is there a version of the myth that explains why the flood happened?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.bigorrin.org/archive30.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18514" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5556" RevisionGUID="d402027c-93f5-4d75-b976-50124770aa4c" CreationDate="2019-03-28T16:55:56.900" UserId="57" Text="What caused the Mojave flood?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18515" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5556" RevisionGUID="d402027c-93f5-4d75-b976-50124770aa4c" CreationDate="2019-03-28T16:55:56.900" UserId="57" Text="|native-american|flood-myth|mojave|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18516" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5539" RevisionGUID="10fdae10-bbc2-4d05-a805-7f3dcd7aacae" CreationDate="2019-03-28T21:26:59.643" UserId="5726" Comment="added 1834 characters in body" Text="**What was the first recorded religion or mythology that specified the holy/sacred use of tattoos?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any older religions that actively supported the tattooing of their religious followers?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most religions today condemn the use of tattoos:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The majority of Sunni Muslims believe tattooing is a sin, because it involves changing the natural creation of God, inflicting unnecessary pain in the process.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some Christians take issue with tattooing, upholding the Hebrew prohibition . The Hebrew prohibition is based on interpreting &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Leviticus 19:28][1]—&quot;Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dead, nor print any marks upon you&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tattoos are generally forbidden in Judaism based on the [Torah (Leviticus 19:28):][2] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;You shall not make gashes in your flesh for the dead, or incise any&#xD;&#xA;&gt; marks on yourselves: I am the Lord.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know that the Kmer people used [Yantra tattooing][3] and that this practice was taken over by buddhist monks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Southeast Asia has a tradition of protective tattoos known as sak yant&#xD;&#xA;&gt; or yantra tattoos that incorporate Buddhist symbols and images, as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; well as protective mantras or sutra verses in antique Khmer script.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These tattoos are sometimes applied by Buddhist monks or practitioners&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of indigenous spiritual traditions. Traditionally, tattoos that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; included images of the Buddha or other religious figures were only&#xD;&#xA;&gt; applied to certain parts of the body, and sometimes required&#xD;&#xA;&gt; commitment on the part of the recipient to observe the Five Precepts&#xD;&#xA;&gt; or other traditional customs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Hinduism [Mehndi][4] tattoos are made of henna and are not permanent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tattoos are allowed culturally and religiously, although contemporary tattoos is uncommon among traditional Hindus. Historical roots date back to the practice of Mehndi using Henna.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ötzi][5] is Europe's oldest known natural human mummy, and has offered an unprecedented view of Chalcolithic (Copper Age) Europeans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ötzi had a total of 61 tattoos (or Soot tattoos), consisting of 19&#xD;&#xA;&gt; groups of black lines ranging from 1 to 3 mm in thickness and 7 to 40&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mm long. These include groups of parallel lines running along the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; longitudinal axis of his body and to both sides of the lumbar spine,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as well as a cruciform mark behind the right knee and on the right&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ankle, and parallel lines around the left wrist. The greatest&#xD;&#xA;&gt; concentration of markings is found on his legs, which together exhibit&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 12 groups of lines. A microscopic examination of samples collected&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from these tattoos revealed that they were created from pigment&#xD;&#xA;&gt; manufactured out of fireplace ash or soot.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Radiological examination of Ötzi's bones showed &quot;age-conditioned or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; strain-induced degeneration&quot; corresponding to many tattooed areas,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; including osteochondrosis and slight spondylosis in the lumbar spine&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and wear-and-tear degeneration in the knee and especially in the ankle&#xD;&#xA;&gt; joints. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;It has been speculated that these tattoos may have been&#xD;&#xA;&gt; related to pain relief treatments similar to acupressure or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; acupuncture. If so, this is at least 2,000 years before their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; previously known earliest use in China (c. 1000 BCE). Recent&#xD;&#xA;&gt; research into archaeological evidence for ancient tattooing has&#xD;&#xA;&gt; confirmed that Ötzi is the oldest tattooed human mummy yet&#xD;&#xA;&gt; discovered.&#xD;&#xA;[source 1][6] [source 2][7]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Leviticus-19-28/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9920/jewish/Chapter-19.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yantra_tattooing&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehndi&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96tzi&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1296207415000023?via%3Dihub&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://web.archive.org/web/20151117033016/http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1113319184/scan-finds-new-tattoos-on-5300-year-old-iceman-012215/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18517" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5539" RevisionGUID="3b7d13fc-eb8d-4660-b607-1f3f28fea713" CreationDate="2019-03-28T21:34:06.103" UserId="5726" Comment="added 1834 characters in body" Text="Most religions today condemn the use of tattoos but **what was the first recorded mythology/religion that encouraged the tattooing of their followers?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The majority of Sunni Muslims believe tattooing is a sin, because it involves changing the natural creation of God, inflicting unnecessary pain in the process.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some Christians take issue with tattooing, upholding the Hebrew prohibition . The Hebrew prohibition is based on interpreting &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Leviticus 19:28][1]—&quot;Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dead, nor print any marks upon you&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tattoos are generally forbidden in Judaism based on the [Torah (Leviticus 19:28):][2] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;You shall not make gashes in your flesh for the dead, or incise any&#xD;&#xA;&gt; marks on yourselves: I am the Lord.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know that the Kmer people used [Yantra tattooing][3] and that this practice was taken over by buddhist monks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Southeast Asia has a tradition of protective tattoos known as sak yant&#xD;&#xA;&gt; or yantra tattoos that incorporate Buddhist symbols and images, as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; well as protective mantras or sutra verses in antique Khmer script.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These tattoos are sometimes applied by Buddhist monks or practitioners&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of indigenous spiritual traditions. Traditionally, tattoos that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; included images of the Buddha or other religious figures were only&#xD;&#xA;&gt; applied to certain parts of the body, and sometimes required&#xD;&#xA;&gt; commitment on the part of the recipient to observe the Five Precepts&#xD;&#xA;&gt; or other traditional customs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Hinduism [Mehndi][4] tattoos are made of henna and are not permanent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tattoos are allowed culturally and religiously, although contemporary tattoos is uncommon among traditional Hindus. Historical roots date back to the practice of Mehndi using Henna.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ötzi][5] is Europe's oldest known natural human mummy, and has offered an unprecedented view of Chalcolithic (Copper Age) Europeans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ötzi had a total of 61 tattoos (or Soot tattoos), consisting of 19&#xD;&#xA;&gt; groups of black lines ranging from 1 to 3 mm in thickness and 7 to 40&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mm long. These include groups of parallel lines running along the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; longitudinal axis of his body and to both sides of the lumbar spine,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as well as a cruciform mark behind the right knee and on the right&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ankle, and parallel lines around the left wrist. The greatest&#xD;&#xA;&gt; concentration of markings is found on his legs, which together exhibit&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 12 groups of lines. A microscopic examination of samples collected&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from these tattoos revealed that they were created from pigment&#xD;&#xA;&gt; manufactured out of fireplace ash or soot.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Radiological examination of Ötzi's bones showed &quot;age-conditioned or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; strain-induced degeneration&quot; corresponding to many tattooed areas,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; including osteochondrosis and slight spondylosis in the lumbar spine&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and wear-and-tear degeneration in the knee and especially in the ankle&#xD;&#xA;&gt; joints. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;It has been speculated that these tattoos may have been&#xD;&#xA;&gt; related to pain relief treatments similar to acupressure or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; acupuncture. If so, this is at least 2,000 years before their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; previously known earliest use in China (c. 1000 BCE). Recent&#xD;&#xA;&gt; research into archaeological evidence for ancient tattooing has&#xD;&#xA;&gt; confirmed that Ötzi is the oldest tattooed human mummy yet&#xD;&#xA;&gt; discovered.&#xD;&#xA;[source 1][6] [source 2][7]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Leviticus-19-28/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9920/jewish/Chapter-19.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yantra_tattooing&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehndi&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96tzi&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1296207415000023?via%3Dihub&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://web.archive.org/web/20151117033016/http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1113319184/scan-finds-new-tattoos-on-5300-year-old-iceman-012215/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18518" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5539" RevisionGUID="3b7d13fc-eb8d-4660-b607-1f3f28fea713" CreationDate="2019-03-28T21:34:06.103" UserId="5726" Comment="added 1834 characters in body" Text="what was the first recorded mythology/religion that encouraged the tattooing of their followers?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18519" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5557" RevisionGUID="f5bc16a7-2d36-4a7e-a62d-b67c248bbd1a" CreationDate="2019-03-29T10:38:15.077" UserId="5924" Text="I have a vague recollection of a story involving an emperor asking the hero to choose between two bowls. If the hero picks the one covering a coin he will be rewarded, but if he picks the empty one he will be sentenced to death. The hero learns that the emperor is cheating and both bowls are empty, but cheats death by pointing to a bowl and saying I pick this one, then lifting the other bowl to reveal it is empty. Does anybody know this tale or one with similar theme?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18520" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5557" RevisionGUID="f5bc16a7-2d36-4a7e-a62d-b67c248bbd1a" CreationDate="2019-03-29T10:38:15.077" UserId="5924" Text="Which tale has choice between two bowls, one of which contains a death sentence and the other a reward?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18521" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5557" RevisionGUID="f5bc16a7-2d36-4a7e-a62d-b67c248bbd1a" CreationDate="2019-03-29T10:38:15.077" UserId="5924" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18523" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5558" RevisionGUID="4ca42f65-422d-4ddd-9e4c-0d866e6f8de2" CreationDate="2019-03-30T22:45:20.043" UserDisplayName="user4244" Text="In western astrology the zodiac contains 12 signs each of which is assigned one of 4 elements (fire, earth, air, or water) and one of 3 modalities (also known as qualities) (fixed, cardinal, or mutable). There are 12 possible combinations of element and modality and each of them is uniquely assigned to a sign: for example, Taurus is fixed earth, and Sagittarius is mutable fire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Hindu astrology the assignment is similar, except that the three qualities are fixed, movable, and dual, corresponding respectively to western astrology's fixed, cardinal and mutable: thus for example Sagittarius is dual fire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Graphical symbols have been assigned to each of the signs and I am also aware of symbols for the four elements. Meanwhile there are symbols in astrology for planets and for aspects.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What symbols have been used, if any, for the modalities (qualities)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18524" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5558" RevisionGUID="4ca42f65-422d-4ddd-9e4c-0d866e6f8de2" CreationDate="2019-03-30T22:45:20.043" UserDisplayName="user4244" Text="What graphical symbols, if any, have been used for the three &quot;modalities&quot; in western or other astrological systems?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18525" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5558" RevisionGUID="4ca42f65-422d-4ddd-9e4c-0d866e6f8de2" CreationDate="2019-03-30T22:45:20.043" UserDisplayName="user4244" Text="|astrology|zodiac|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18526" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5559" RevisionGUID="97aa4a02-02ec-48ef-b4a7-c207f9c33ad9" CreationDate="2019-03-31T03:02:25.743" UserId="5911" Text="I’m writing a story where the mane character is the heir to a throne but has to pass 3 trials to actually claim the throne as hers. Are there any trials that the Norse used in this case? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18527" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5559" RevisionGUID="97aa4a02-02ec-48ef-b4a7-c207f9c33ad9" CreationDate="2019-03-31T03:02:25.743" UserId="5911" Text="Norse mythology trials to claim throne" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18528" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5559" RevisionGUID="97aa4a02-02ec-48ef-b4a7-c207f9c33ad9" CreationDate="2019-03-31T03:02:25.743" UserId="5911" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18529" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5559" RevisionGUID="6b43d0bd-2a9c-4bd7-ba01-762f265c7efd" CreationDate="2019-03-31T03:05:30.900" UserId="967" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18530" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5559" RevisionGUID="27aac390-ebca-4762-9cd8-078b7360f6b6" CreationDate="2019-03-31T11:20:11.790" UserId="57" Comment="added 8 characters in body; edited title" Text="I’m writing a story where the main character is the heir to a throne but has to pass 3 trials to actually claim the throne as hers. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any trials that the Norse used in similar cases? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18531" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5559" RevisionGUID="27aac390-ebca-4762-9cd8-078b7360f6b6" CreationDate="2019-03-31T11:20:11.790" UserId="57" Comment="added 8 characters in body; edited title" Text="Are there any Norse stories that feature trials to claim the throne?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18534" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="5535" RevisionGUID="198ccaa3-9c75-4e90-8d60-b07cc0e5c26c" CreationDate="2019-03-31T22:07:32.050" UserId="-1" Comment="101" Text="{&quot;OriginalQuestionIds&quot;:[1662,5363],&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:5726,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Tom&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:1317,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Spencer&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:2807,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Rodia&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:967,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;bleh&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="18535" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="4677" RevisionGUID="15341922-4353-4c05-ba27-db744282b22c" CreationDate="2019-04-01T12:18:05.340" UserId="57" Comment="79" />
  <row Id="18536" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="2302" RevisionGUID="10e1d6a4-185f-42a3-8799-10071bc3a004" CreationDate="2019-04-01T12:18:07.697" UserId="57" Comment="80" />
  <row Id="18539" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5561" RevisionGUID="eb5248e5-ae66-4f28-99bc-45eb0a2f4441" CreationDate="2019-04-03T15:56:07.190" UserId="5511" Text="Arguably, Norse mythology even has a god of trials, [Forseti](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forseti)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Æsir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%86sir) named [Syn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syn_(goddess)) springs to mind. She guards the gates of Frigg's hall and issues trials so that only those worthy may enter. Her judgement is final.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Voluspá,](http://www.voluspa.org/) gives the account of the trials of Gullveig." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18540" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5562" RevisionGUID="0a9b08e3-b883-4361-86af-85fab50f6a4d" CreationDate="2019-04-03T16:08:12.580" UserId="5511" Text="What we call &quot;Western&quot; astronomy has its roots is Mesopotamian astronomy, it came to us by the book of Ezekiel, which copies the Babylonian model. The association of zodiac signs with elements and modalities is a Greek addition based on the work of [Empedocles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empedocles).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This uses the following symbols for modalities:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Cardinal][1]][1] Cardinal&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Fixed][2]][2] Fixed&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Mutable][3]][3] Mutable&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Y8dnY.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/4sdA1.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/aOJ5g.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18541" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5563" RevisionGUID="739b1218-5a62-40ca-a212-dff9d1100529" CreationDate="2019-04-03T18:57:05.057" UserId="5726" Text="Hephaestus’s ugly appearance and lameness is taken by some to represent peripheral neuropathy and skin cancer resulting from arsenicosis caused by arsenic exposure from metalworking.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; Bronze age smiths added arsenic to copper to produce harder arsenical bronze, especially during periods of tin scarcity. Many Bronze Age smiths would have suffered from chronic arsenic poisoning as a result of their livelihood. Consequently, the mythic image of the lame smith is widespread as will be explained later. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As Hephaestus was an iron-age smith, not a bronze-age smith, the connection is possibly one from ancient folk memory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**There is certainly no direct reference to any of these&#xD;&#xA;diseases in the ancient literature, and the best evidence&#xD;&#xA;for the possibility that recognisable arsenic toxicity&#xD;&#xA;existed is the indirect inference that may be drawn&#xD;&#xA;from the history of usage.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So far as other evidence for&#xD;&#xA;[chronic metal poisoning][1] is concerned it is only possible to draw conclusions in the manner that has been&#xD;&#xA;attempted here-that is, based on the probability of&#xD;&#xA;exposure estimated from a consideration of the processes and materials.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A common effect of [chronic arsenic poisoning][2] is&#xD;&#xA;[dermatitis][3] and [hyperkeratosis][4] sometimes associated&#xD;&#xA;with [arsenical melanosis][5], which may lead to the development of [skin cancer][6]. These symptoms would have&#xD;&#xA;been readily and obviously associated with arsenic&#xD;&#xA;exposure. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the long term another important&#xD;&#xA;manifestation of chronic arsenic poisoning is the&#xD;&#xA;development of a [peripheral neuritis][7] which may lead&#xD;&#xA;to **weakness in the legs and feet.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this connection it&#xD;&#xA;should be noted that the [patron gods of craftsmen][8]&#xD;&#xA;such as the Greek [Hephaistos][9], Roman [Vulcan][10], Teutonic [Wieland/Wayland/Völundr][11], , and the Finnish [Ilmarinen][12] are all lame. Such a widespread&#xD;&#xA;association of a particular symptom with a single&#xD;&#xA;occupation (smithing and craftwork) has led to the suggestion that this could&#xD;&#xA;have resulted from arsenical neuropathy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;There are two possible techniques for the gilding of&#xD;&#xA;copper and silver using mercury. In the first the surface of the base metal object is [amalgamated][13] by rubbing mercury on to it followed by the application of&#xD;&#xA;gold leaf. In the second, used by the Greeks, a prepared gold mercury amalgam is spread over the base&#xD;&#xA;metal surface. In either case pretreatment with a mercury salt is helpful and the final stage is to heat the&#xD;&#xA;metal to evaporate the mercury leaving a continuous&#xD;&#xA;and strongly adherent film of gold on the surface.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Other metals also form amalgams with mercury, the&#xD;&#xA;saturated weight percentage solution (at 20°C) being&#xD;&#xA;2-15% for zinc, 0-61% for tin, and 1 3% for lead compared with 0-00032% for copper. There is a considerable likelihood of a solution of the first three metals&#xD;&#xA;spoiling the final gilding. In the case of lead, which is&#xD;&#xA;concentrated as globules on the surface rather than in&#xD;&#xA;solution in the copper, melting occurs at a temperature below the boiling point of mercury. For these reasons gilding was confined to low tin bronzes&#xD;&#xA;that were lead free or pure copper.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The entire process is&#xD;&#xA;fraught with the potential for mercury poisoning,&#xD;&#xA;exposure being a virtual certainty during both the&#xD;&#xA;refining of mercury and the final stage gilding.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[*Possible toxic metal exposure of prehistoric bronze&#xD;&#xA;workers p656 (the pdf is down-loadable)*][14]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Some further reading][15] (I was unable to procure a free down-loadable for everyone to read)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_toxicity&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_toxicity#Arsenic_poisoning&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dermatitis&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperkeratosis&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.clinicaladvisor.com/home/dermatology/arsenic-toxicity-arsenicism-arsenicosis-arsenical-keratoses-arsenical-pigmentation-mees-lines/&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_cancer&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peripheral_neuropathy&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Smithing_gods&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hephaestus&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_the_Smith&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilmarinen&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalgam_(chemistry)&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1007896/pdf/brjindmed00162-0004.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300050318/civilization-greece-and-rome" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18542" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5563" RevisionGUID="b7fa4447-185d-4263-b072-df432e246d19" CreationDate="2019-04-03T20:26:29.833" UserId="5726" Comment="added 11 characters in body" Text="Hephaestus’s ugly appearance and lameness is taken by some to represent peripheral neuropathy and skin cancer resulting from arsenicosis caused by arsenic exposure from metalworking.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; Bronze age smiths added arsenic to copper to produce harder arsenical bronze, especially during periods of tin scarcity. Many Bronze Age smiths would have suffered from chronic arsenic poisoning as a result of their livelihood. Consequently, the mythic image of the lame smith is widespread as will be explained later. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As Hephaestus was an iron-age smith, not a bronze-age smith, the connection is possibly one from ancient folk memory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**There is certainly no direct reference to any of these&#xD;&#xA;diseases in the ancient literature, and the best evidence&#xD;&#xA;for the possibility that recognisable arsenic toxicity&#xD;&#xA;existed is the indirect inference that may be drawn&#xD;&#xA;from the history of usage.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So far as other evidence for&#xD;&#xA;[chronic metal poisoning][1] is concerned it is only possible to draw conclusions in the manner that has been&#xD;&#xA;attempted here-that is, based on the probability of&#xD;&#xA;exposure estimated from a consideration of the processes and materials.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A common effect of [chronic arsenic poisoning][2] is&#xD;&#xA;[dermatitis][3] and [hyperkeratosis][4] sometimes associated&#xD;&#xA;with [arsenical melanosis][5], which may lead to the development of [skin cancer][6]. These symptoms would have&#xD;&#xA;been readily and obviously associated with arsenic&#xD;&#xA;exposure. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the long term another important&#xD;&#xA;manifestation of chronic arsenic poisoning is the&#xD;&#xA;development of a [peripheral neuritis][7] which may lead&#xD;&#xA;to **weakness in the legs and feet.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this connection it&#xD;&#xA;should be noted that the [patron gods of craftsmen][8]&#xD;&#xA;such as the Greek [Hephaistos][9], Roman [Vulcan][10], Teutonic [Wieland/Wayland/Völundr][11], , and the Finnish [Ilmarinen][12] are all lame. Such a widespread&#xD;&#xA;association of a particular symptom with a single&#xD;&#xA;occupation (smithing and craftwork) has led to the suggestion that this could&#xD;&#xA;have resulted from arsenical neuropathy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;There are two possible techniques for the gilding of&#xD;&#xA;copper and silver using mercury. In the first the surface of the base metal object is [amalgamated][13] by rubbing mercury on to it followed by the application of&#xD;&#xA;gold leaf. In the second, used by the Greeks, a prepared gold mercury amalgam is spread over the base&#xD;&#xA;metal surface. In either case pretreatment with a mercury salt is helpful and the final stage is to heat the&#xD;&#xA;metal to evaporate the mercury leaving a continuous&#xD;&#xA;and strongly adherent film of gold on the surface.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Other metals also form amalgams with mercury, the&#xD;&#xA;saturated weight percentage solution (at 20°C) being&#xD;&#xA;2-15% for zinc, 0-61% for tin, and 1 3% for lead compared with 0-00032% for copper. There is a considerable likelihood of a solution of the first three metals&#xD;&#xA;spoiling the final gilding. In the case of lead, which is&#xD;&#xA;concentrated as globules on the surface rather than in&#xD;&#xA;solution in the copper, melting occurs at a temperature below the boiling point of mercury. For these reasons gilding was confined to low tin bronzes&#xD;&#xA;that were lead free or pure copper.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The entire process is&#xD;&#xA;fraught with the potential for mercury poisoning,&#xD;&#xA;exposure being a virtual certainty during both the&#xD;&#xA;refining of mercury and the final stage gilding.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[*Possible toxic metal exposure of prehistoric bronze&#xD;&#xA;workers p656 (the pdf is down-loadable)*&lt;/sub&gt;][14]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Some further reading][15] (I was unable to procure a free down-loadable for everyone to read)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_toxicity&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_toxicity#Arsenic_poisoning&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dermatitis&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperkeratosis&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.clinicaladvisor.com/home/dermatology/arsenic-toxicity-arsenicism-arsenicosis-arsenical-keratoses-arsenical-pigmentation-mees-lines/&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_cancer&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peripheral_neuropathy&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Smithing_gods&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hephaestus&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_the_Smith&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilmarinen&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalgam_(chemistry)&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1007896/pdf/brjindmed00162-0004.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300050318/civilization-greece-and-rome" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18543" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5524" RevisionGUID="e29389ce-a4fe-424e-87be-cf187b2d855e" CreationDate="2019-04-04T01:23:51.143" UserId="967" Comment="added 151 characters in body" Text="I'm talking about both modern and ancient religions that we know of.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Christianity -&gt; Heaven&#xD;&#xA; - Greco Roman -&gt; Hades&#xD;&#xA; - Egyptian -&gt; Anubis, Osiris&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;among many others. Are there any exceptions to this statement?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18544" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5514" RevisionGUID="c8764a6a-49cd-4a9e-b779-57dc6b4cac1d" CreationDate="2019-04-04T01:24:20.187" UserId="5726" Comment="Added applicable tags" Text="|greek|roman|zeus|weapons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18545" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5514" RevisionGUID="c8764a6a-49cd-4a9e-b779-57dc6b4cac1d" CreationDate="2019-04-04T01:24:20.187" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 2807, 967 edit id of 1714" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18546" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5513" RevisionGUID="e83c5771-9be8-4200-bd79-c69fdf94cc0a" CreationDate="2019-04-04T01:27:36.593" UserId="967" Comment="added 12 characters in body; edited title" Text="I'm comparing the interpretations of Apollodorus, Ovid, and Hesiod to see what version of humankind is &quot;liked&quot; the most by the gods, which one is it? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18547" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5513" RevisionGUID="e83c5771-9be8-4200-bd79-c69fdf94cc0a" CreationDate="2019-04-04T01:27:36.593" UserId="967" Comment="added 12 characters in body; edited title" Text="In what version of Greek Mythology are humankind described the most positively?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18548" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5564" RevisionGUID="9fb3bb69-4009-4526-ab97-33e7c11f8614" CreationDate="2019-04-04T10:05:33.183" UserId="5941" Text="Many gomphothere fossils have been discovered throughout north and south America. It's entirely possible that some of these were still alive at the time the Mayans we're creating these glyphs and carvings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gomphothere_fossils_in_South_America&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://dochermes.livejournal.com/1951246.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18549" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5563" RevisionGUID="6b87603a-9a04-44e3-9d10-cb1789b17b9d" CreationDate="2019-04-04T18:43:39.383" UserId="5726" Comment="added 43 characters in body" Text="Hephaestus’s ugly appearance and lameness is taken by some to represent peripheral neuropathy and skin cancer resulting from arsenicosis caused by arsenic exposure from metalworking.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; Bronze age smiths added arsenic to copper to produce harder arsenical bronze, especially during periods of tin scarcity. Many Bronze Age smiths would have suffered from chronic arsenic poisoning as a result of their livelihood. Consequently, the mythic image of the lame smith is widespread as will be explained later. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As Hephaestus was an iron-age smith, not a bronze-age smith, the connection is possibly one from ancient folk memory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**There is certainly no direct reference to any of these&#xD;&#xA;diseases in the ancient literature, and the best evidence&#xD;&#xA;for the possibility that recognisable arsenic toxicity&#xD;&#xA;existed is the indirect inference that may be drawn&#xD;&#xA;from the history of usage.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So far as other evidence for&#xD;&#xA;[chronic metal poisoning][1] is concerned it is only possible to draw conclusions in the manner that has been&#xD;&#xA;attempted here-that is, based on the probability of&#xD;&#xA;exposure estimated from a consideration of the processes and materials.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A common effect of [chronic arsenic poisoning][2] is&#xD;&#xA;[dermatitis][3] and [hyperkeratosis][4] sometimes associated&#xD;&#xA;with [arsenical melanosis][5], which may lead to the development of [skin cancer][6]. These symptoms would have&#xD;&#xA;been readily and obviously associated with arsenic&#xD;&#xA;exposure. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the long term another important&#xD;&#xA;manifestation of chronic arsenic poisoning is the&#xD;&#xA;development of a [peripheral neuritis][7] which may lead&#xD;&#xA;to **weakness in the legs and feet.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this connection it&#xD;&#xA;should be noted that the [patron gods of craftsmen][8]&#xD;&#xA;such as the Greek [Hephaistos][9], Roman [Vulcan][10], Teutonic [Wieland/Wayland/Völundr][11], , and the Finnish [Ilmarinen][12] are all lame. Such a widespread&#xD;&#xA;association of a particular symptom with a single&#xD;&#xA;occupation (smithing and craftwork) has led to the suggestion that this could&#xD;&#xA;have resulted from arsenical neuropathy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;There are two possible techniques for the gilding of&#xD;&#xA;copper and silver using mercury. In the first the surface of the base metal object is [amalgamated][13] by rubbing mercury on to it followed by the application of&#xD;&#xA;gold leaf. In the second, used by the Greeks, a prepared gold mercury amalgam is spread over the base&#xD;&#xA;metal surface. In either case pretreatment with a mercury salt is helpful and the final stage is to heat the&#xD;&#xA;metal to evaporate the mercury leaving a continuous&#xD;&#xA;and strongly adherent film of gold on the surface.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Other metals also form amalgams with mercury, the&#xD;&#xA;saturated weight percentage solution (at 20°C) being&#xD;&#xA;2-15% for zinc, 0-61% for tin, and 1 3% for lead compared with 0-00032% for copper. There is a considerable likelihood of a solution of the first three metals&#xD;&#xA;spoiling the final gilding. In the case of lead, which is&#xD;&#xA;concentrated as globules on the surface rather than in&#xD;&#xA;solution in the copper, melting occurs at a temperature below the boiling point of mercury. For these reasons gilding was confined to low tin bronzes&#xD;&#xA;that were lead free or pure copper.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The entire process is&#xD;&#xA;fraught with the potential for mercury poisoning,&#xD;&#xA;exposure being a virtual certainty during both the&#xD;&#xA;refining of mercury and the final stage gilding.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[*Possible toxic metal exposure of prehistoric bronze&#xD;&#xA;workers p656 (the pdf is down-loadable)*&lt;/sub&gt;][14]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Civilization before Greece and Rome. H. W. F. Saggs &lt;/sub&gt;][15] (I was unable to procure a free down-loadable for everyone to read)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_toxicity&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_toxicity#Arsenic_poisoning&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dermatitis&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperkeratosis&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.clinicaladvisor.com/home/dermatology/arsenic-toxicity-arsenicism-arsenicosis-arsenical-keratoses-arsenical-pigmentation-mees-lines/&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_cancer&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peripheral_neuropathy&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Smithing_gods&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hephaestus&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_the_Smith&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilmarinen&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalgam_(chemistry)&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1007896/pdf/brjindmed00162-0004.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300050318/civilization-greece-and-rome" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18550" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5565" RevisionGUID="4be6cc84-778b-4964-b9fe-a3ba27e46d2b" CreationDate="2019-04-04T20:47:42.307" UserId="2985" Text="The Mnong are one of the many Degar peoples of central Vietnam. They have a series of epic song stories that tell of their mythology.&#xD;&#xA;I have been looking for translations of these. Does anyone know where I can find these? There are Vietnamese versions but unfortunately, I cannot read Vietnamese.&#xD;&#xA;Thanks in advance  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18551" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5565" RevisionGUID="4be6cc84-778b-4964-b9fe-a3ba27e46d2b" CreationDate="2019-04-04T20:47:42.307" UserId="2985" Text="Mythology of the Mnong people" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18552" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5565" RevisionGUID="4be6cc84-778b-4964-b9fe-a3ba27e46d2b" CreationDate="2019-04-04T20:47:42.307" UserId="2985" Text="|mythohistory|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18555" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5566" RevisionGUID="feadf065-39dc-41c4-83d9-fadd9f210247" CreationDate="2019-04-06T02:26:31.047" UserId="467" Text="In the myth where Zeus impregnates Danae through a golden shower, what is the significance of the water being golden? Rain is often symbolizing semen, but why is it golden? Does it simply indicate glory, since Zeus is king of the gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18556" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5566" RevisionGUID="feadf065-39dc-41c4-83d9-fadd9f210247" CreationDate="2019-04-06T02:26:31.047" UserId="467" Text="When Zeus impregnates Danae, what is the meaning of the shower being golden?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18557" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5566" RevisionGUID="feadf065-39dc-41c4-83d9-fadd9f210247" CreationDate="2019-04-06T02:26:31.047" UserId="467" Text="|zeus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18558" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5567" RevisionGUID="3c203d07-cbd7-4c37-adf5-812601b25ba1" CreationDate="2019-04-06T15:34:57.587" UserId="57" Text="I'm afraid the myth is a bit pedestrian. Zeus transforms himself into gold (not golden water), a gift valuable enough to bend any reservations the young maiden might have had.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This interpretation is shared in three poems that appear in the [Greek Anthology][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Antipater of Thessalonica**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [5.30] All Homer says is well said, but this most excellently that Aphrodite is golden. For if, my friend, you bring the coin, there is neither a porter in the way, nor a dog chained before the door. But if you come without it, there is Cerberus himself there. Oh ! grasping rules of wealth, how do you oppress poverty!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [5.31] Formerly there were three ages, a golden, a silver, and a brazen, but Cytherea is now all three. She honours the man of gold, and she kisses the brazen man and she never turns her back on the silver men. She is a very Nestor; I even think that Zeus came to Danae, not turned to gold, but bringing a hundred gold sovereigns.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Parmenion**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [5.33] Thou didst fall in rain of gold on Danae, Olympian Zeus, that the child might yield to thee as to a gift, and not tremble before thee as before a god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [5.34] Zeus bought Danae for gold, and I buy you for a gold coin. I can’t give more than Zeus did.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Paulus Silentiarius**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [5.217] Zeus, turned to gold, piercing the brazen chamber of Danae, cut the knot of intact virginity. I think the meaning of the story is this, “Gold, the subduer of all things, gets the better of brazen walls and fetters; gold loosens all reins and opens every lock, gold makes the ladies with scornful eyes bend the knee. It was gold that bent the will of Danae. No need for a lover to pray to Aphrodite, if he brings money to offer.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Greek anthology, by Paton, W. R. Volume 1. London, W. Heinemann; New York, G.P. Putnam's sons, 1916-18&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Anthology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18559" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5567" RevisionGUID="fe5ab91d-3011-489b-b755-1d8f8fd18939" CreationDate="2019-04-06T16:57:04.420" UserId="57" Comment="added 27 characters in body" Text="I'm afraid the myth is a bit pedestrian. Zeus transforms himself into gold (not golden water), a gift valuable enough to bend any reservations the young maiden might have had. That's all there is to it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This interpretation is shared in three poems that appear in the [Greek Anthology][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Antipater of Thessalonica**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [5.30] All Homer says is well said, but this most excellently that Aphrodite is golden. For if, my friend, you bring the coin, there is neither a porter in the way, nor a dog chained before the door. But if you come without it, there is Cerberus himself there. Oh ! grasping rules of wealth, how do you oppress poverty!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [5.31] Formerly there were three ages, a golden, a silver, and a brazen, but Cytherea is now all three. She honours the man of gold, and she kisses the brazen man and she never turns her back on the silver men. She is a very Nestor; I even think that Zeus came to Danae, not turned to gold, but bringing a hundred gold sovereigns.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Parmenion**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [5.33] Thou didst fall in rain of gold on Danae, Olympian Zeus, that the child might yield to thee as to a gift, and not tremble before thee as before a god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [5.34] Zeus bought Danae for gold, and I buy you for a gold coin. I can’t give more than Zeus did.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Paulus Silentiarius**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [5.217] Zeus, turned to gold, piercing the brazen chamber of Danae, cut the knot of intact virginity. I think the meaning of the story is this, “Gold, the subduer of all things, gets the better of brazen walls and fetters; gold loosens all reins and opens every lock, gold makes the ladies with scornful eyes bend the knee. It was gold that bent the will of Danae. No need for a lover to pray to Aphrodite, if he brings money to offer.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Greek anthology, by Paton, W. R. Volume 1. London, W. Heinemann; New York, G.P. Putnam's sons, 1916-18&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Anthology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18560" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5567" RevisionGUID="68c06557-d220-4332-891e-18ceb1e0086f" CreationDate="2019-04-06T22:44:03.990" UserId="57" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="I'm afraid the myth is a bit pedestrian. Zeus transforms himself into gold (not golden water), a gift valuable enough to bend any reservations the young maiden might have had. That's all there is to it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This interpretation is highlighted in three poems that appear in [Greek Anthology][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Antipater of Thessalonica**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [5.30] All Homer says is well said, but this most excellently that Aphrodite is golden. For if, my friend, you bring the coin, there is neither a porter in the way, nor a dog chained before the door. But if you come without it, there is Cerberus himself there. Oh ! grasping rules of wealth, how do you oppress poverty!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [5.31] Formerly there were three ages, a golden, a silver, and a brazen, but Cytherea is now all three. She honours the man of gold, and she kisses the brazen man and she never turns her back on the silver men. She is a very Nestor; I even think that Zeus came to Danae, not turned to gold, but bringing a hundred gold sovereigns.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Parmenion**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [5.33] Thou didst fall in rain of gold on Danae, Olympian Zeus, that the child might yield to thee as to a gift, and not tremble before thee as before a god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [5.34] Zeus bought Danae for gold, and I buy you for a gold coin. I can’t give more than Zeus did.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Paulus Silentiarius**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [5.217] Zeus, turned to gold, piercing the brazen chamber of Danae, cut the knot of intact virginity. I think the meaning of the story is this, “Gold, the subduer of all things, gets the better of brazen walls and fetters; gold loosens all reins and opens every lock, gold makes the ladies with scornful eyes bend the knee. It was gold that bent the will of Danae. No need for a lover to pray to Aphrodite, if he brings money to offer.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Greek anthology, by Paton, W. R. Volume 1. London, W. Heinemann; New York, G.P. Putnam's sons, 1916-18&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Anthology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18561" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="1375" RevisionGUID="be7061c3-505f-47fa-8eb0-d0474c8ff78a" CreationDate="2019-04-07T00:13:02.197" UserId="57" Comment="81" />
  <row Id="18563" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5569" RevisionGUID="9a22fe21-4430-4bc1-8870-07e1c175d6cc" CreationDate="2019-04-07T02:58:07.293" UserId="5949" Text="I suppose it depends on your definition of &quot;vampire&quot;, but *a* defining characteristic of the vampire in the medieval world was that he must return to his grave to rest. With that stipulation long distance travel would be an impossibility. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18564" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5570" RevisionGUID="0ba75260-4356-48f8-8db4-6a0e6221f736" CreationDate="2019-04-08T19:25:33.200" UserId="5951" Text="I have read in many articles where it is mentioned that **Zeus** overthrew **Cronos (Titan)** who could controls time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Question&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;How is it possible? **Cronos** could just turn back time and correct wherever he went wrong?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How was **Zeus** able to kill him in a *10 year long war* where he had control of time?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18565" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5570" RevisionGUID="0ba75260-4356-48f8-8db4-6a0e6221f736" CreationDate="2019-04-08T19:25:33.200" UserId="5951" Text="How did Cronos lose if he was god of time?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18566" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5570" RevisionGUID="0ba75260-4356-48f8-8db4-6a0e6221f736" CreationDate="2019-04-08T19:25:33.200" UserId="5951" Text="|comparative|zeus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18567" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5565" RevisionGUID="4ad1c6a9-7cf0-4792-8fa8-58de3fa10c5a" CreationDate="2019-04-08T22:16:24.367" UserId="2985" Comment="added 66 characters in body" Text="The Mnong are one of the many Degar peoples of central Vietnam. They have a series of epic song stories that tell of their mythology.&#xD;&#xA;I have been looking for translations of these. Does anyone know where I can find these? There are Vietnamese versions but unfortunately, I cannot read Vietnamese.&#xD;&#xA;Thanks in advance  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;as requested : https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/005237589" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18568" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5555" RevisionGUID="c7c1ac53-5e04-4afd-955c-af0f0c16a516" CreationDate="2019-04-09T08:47:30.467" UserId="5247" Comment="added 33 characters in body" Text="One narrative that famously juxtaposes the divine with the scatological or grotesque is the Old Irish Cath Maige Tuired, the text follows the conflict between the Tuatha Dé (God tribe) and the Fomorians in Ireland. One of the key characters is An Dagda (in text this is given to mean The Good-God), who at about halfway through the text it is decided that An Dagda should go to the Fomorians and seek a temporary truce. When he arrives the Fomorians hatch a plan to provide him with so much food that he will be unable to complete it, thus dishonouring them and giving them an excuse to kill him:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They put goats and sheep and swine into it, and boiled them all together with the porridge. Then they poured it into a hole in the ground, and Indech said to him that he would be killed unless he consumed it all; he should eat his fill so that he might not satirize the Fomoire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately for them, An Dagda is capable of devouring a grotesque amount of food:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then the Dagda took his ladle, and it was big enough for a man and a woman to lie in the middle of it. These are the bits that were in it: halves of salted swine and a quarter of lard.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then the Dagda said, ‘This is good food if its broth is equal to its&#xD;&#xA;&gt; taste.’ But when he would put the full ladle into his mouth he said,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ‘'Its poor bits do not spoil it,' says the wise old man.’&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Afterwards, they send him on his way, but the amount of food he's eaten has him in a disgusting state:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; His belly was as big as a house cauldron, and the Fomoire laughed at it. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It was not easy for the warrior to move along on account of the size of his belly&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;His long penis was uncovered. He had on two shoes of horse-hide with the hair outside.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While leaving he comes across a beautiful woman whom he 'desires' but is too impotent because of the size of his belly, Indech, the daughter of the Fomorian king who just hosted him. Indech, finding him in this state mocks him and wrestles him to the ground:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; She hurled him so that he sank to the hollow of his rump in the ground.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ... &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; She fell upon him again and beat him hard, so that the furrow around him filled with the excrement from his belly; and she satirized him three times so that he would carry her upon his back&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An Dagda explains that he has a taboo on carrying anyone who doesn't know all his names, so what follows is a dialogue in which An Dagda reveals one-by-one his names to Indech, half of them are either rude, grotesque, or reference his 'horniness', the rest appear to be somewhat divine names, or referring to great deeds of his. They are all difficult to read and open to multiple interpretations or puns, which I gather is the point:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Fer Benn Bruaich = Big bellied horned man (likely a reference to his prominent penis)&#xD;&#xA;- Brogaill Broumide = Large-lapped farter&#xD;&#xA;- Cerbad Caic = Cutting all / mountains (Caic may be a pun on Cacc &quot;shit&quot;, which he is currently seated in)&#xD;&#xA;- Rolaig Builc = Great lying bag&#xD;&#xA;- Labair Cerrce Di Brig = Talkative hen from the hill&#xD;&#xA;- Oldathair Boith = Great-Father of being&#xD;&#xA;- Athgen mBethai Brightere = Regeneration og the World / Dry-land&#xD;&#xA;- Trí Carboid Roth = Three chariot wheels&#xD;&#xA;- Rimairie Riog Scotbe = Enumarating King of Speech&#xD;&#xA;- Obthe Olaithbe = Refusal of the great ebb&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Whitley Stokes first translated this passage to English in 1891 he didn't include the above dialogue, stating:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Much of it is obscure to me, and much of the rest is too indecent to be published in this Revue.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sources**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Cath Maige Tuired ‘The battle of Mag Tuired’][1]&#xD;&#xA;- [Names of the Dagda, Carmody, 20012 ][2]&#xD;&#xA;- [The Names of the Dagda, Martin, 2008][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.vanhamel.nl/codecs/Cath_Maige_Tuired&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://storyarchaeology.com/names-of-the-dagda/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~samarti/dagda.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18569" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5570" RevisionGUID="d6750ab0-1b6f-4731-9489-4e359a8f1e8e" CreationDate="2019-04-09T09:16:39.293" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 35 characters in body; edited tags" Text="I have read in many articles where it is mentioned that Zeus overthrew the Titan Cronos who could control time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How is it possible? Cronos could just turn back time and correct wherever he went wrong. How was Zeus able to kill him in a 10-year long war where he had control of time?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18570" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5570" RevisionGUID="d6750ab0-1b6f-4731-9489-4e359a8f1e8e" CreationDate="2019-04-09T09:16:39.293" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 35 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|greek|zeus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18571" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5571" RevisionGUID="bf9dd327-cc24-4047-8339-4219130b661a" CreationDate="2019-04-09T11:04:01.977" UserId="5511" Text="Chronos and Cronus have often been confused in Greek Mythology. The first is the personification of time in pre-Socratic philosophy and later literature. The second is the Titan deity who was defeated by his son Zeus." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18572" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5570" RevisionGUID="85d649c2-ba9f-4c9d-9b3f-2a92cead623e" CreationDate="2019-04-09T15:38:45.503" UserId="5726" Comment="added applicable tag" Text="|greek|zeus|titans|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18573" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5570" RevisionGUID="85d649c2-ba9f-4c9d-9b3f-2a92cead623e" CreationDate="2019-04-09T15:38:45.503" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 57 edit id of 1720" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18574" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5572" RevisionGUID="fb691b3b-3dda-4b58-aaee-4e194d89e350" CreationDate="2019-04-09T22:57:46.433" UserId="4171" Text="I'm reading Mesopotamian mythology and looking to get a  comparison of the major interpretations of the 'meaning' (mythological, psychological or psychoanalytic, ecological, historical, etc.) of the Enuma Enlish creation story, and the slaying of Apsu and Tiamat, so I can have a comparative scholarly framework in the back of my mind as I go. Thanks for your time." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18575" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5572" RevisionGUID="fb691b3b-3dda-4b58-aaee-4e194d89e350" CreationDate="2019-04-09T22:57:46.433" UserId="4171" Text="What are the major interpretations of the Enuma Elish?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18576" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5572" RevisionGUID="fb691b3b-3dda-4b58-aaee-4e194d89e350" CreationDate="2019-04-09T22:57:46.433" UserId="4171" Text="|interpretation|mesopotamia|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18580" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5574" RevisionGUID="6371f9b9-195e-4cb1-be80-3e8e40ace591" CreationDate="2019-04-11T09:15:54.937" UserId="5093" Text="In greek mythology Athena is often said to be favourite child of Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;The only proof that I know if is him gifting her his shield (Aegis).&#xD;&#xA;But is there any other myth that proofs this claim?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18581" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5574" RevisionGUID="6371f9b9-195e-4cb1-be80-3e8e40ace591" CreationDate="2019-04-11T09:15:54.937" UserId="5093" Text="Are there any myths that proof that Athena was the favourite daughter of Zeus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18582" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5574" RevisionGUID="6371f9b9-195e-4cb1-be80-3e8e40ace591" CreationDate="2019-04-11T09:15:54.937" UserId="5093" Text="|greek|myth-identification|zeus|athena|goddesses|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18583" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5574" RevisionGUID="3ca16d93-187a-427b-ba62-84d11bec642a" CreationDate="2019-04-11T12:23:04.430" UserId="5726" Comment="corrected spelling" Text="In Greekk mythology Athena is often said to be favourite child of Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;The only proof that I know of is him gifting her his shield (Aegis).&#xD;&#xA;But is there any other myths that provides proof for this claim?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18584" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5574" RevisionGUID="3ca16d93-187a-427b-ba62-84d11bec642a" CreationDate="2019-04-11T12:23:04.430" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by -1 edit id of 1729" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18585" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5574" RevisionGUID="0881f069-ff25-46a7-9938-993addcaceb2" CreationDate="2019-04-11T12:23:04.430" UserId="57" Comment="corrected spelling" Text="In Greek mythology, Athena is often said to be favourite child of Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;The only proof that I know of is him gifting her his shield (Aegis).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But are there any other myths that provide proof for this claim?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18586" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5574" RevisionGUID="0881f069-ff25-46a7-9938-993addcaceb2" CreationDate="2019-04-11T12:23:04.430" UserId="57" Comment="corrected spelling" Text="Are there any myths that prove Athena was the favorite daughter of Zeus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18590" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="1213" RevisionGUID="044a351f-dafd-469a-bcc7-bff91355067b" CreationDate="2019-04-11T16:31:58.343" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="18591" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5575" RevisionGUID="15307c7a-84f2-4b91-988d-4cd47923658b" CreationDate="2019-04-11T21:45:04.423" UserId="5958" Text="With the significance of trees as representations of life in various cultures, do any of them ever mention cartakers of the forests? Or a defense against impurities and corruption?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or have they always been considered everlasting, near indestructible symbol of life? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(What follows is not important it's just the result of what hidden triggers can shoot out of you) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I guess in the time of mythology the forests almost never ended, even if they did near the sea or a mountain,  it would start up again sooner or later.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; Now a days, the forrest is just a thing we let the smart people worry about." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18592" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5575" RevisionGUID="15307c7a-84f2-4b91-988d-4cd47923658b" CreationDate="2019-04-11T21:45:04.423" UserId="5958" Text="Are forests and trees considere self sufficient and self reliant? Or is there any lore on caretakers of tue forests?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18593" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5575" RevisionGUID="15307c7a-84f2-4b91-988d-4cd47923658b" CreationDate="2019-04-11T21:45:04.423" UserId="5958" Text="|symbolism|yggdrasil|world-tree|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18594" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5575" RevisionGUID="7519895b-d486-49f9-b109-b179488bfab4" CreationDate="2019-04-12T12:34:39.893" UserId="5726" Comment="corrected spelling" Text="With the significance of trees as representations of life in various cultures, do any of them ever mention cartakers of the forests? Or a defense against impurities and corruption?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or have they always been considered everlasting, near indestructible symbol of life? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(What follows is not important it's just the result of what hidden triggers can shoot out of you) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I guess in the time of mythology the forests almost never ended, even if they did near the sea or a mountain,  it would start up again sooner or later.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; Now a days, the forest is just a thing we let the smart people worry about." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18595" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5575" RevisionGUID="7519895b-d486-49f9-b109-b179488bfab4" CreationDate="2019-04-12T12:34:39.893" UserId="5726" Comment="corrected spelling" Text="Are forests and trees considered self sufficient and self reliant? Or is there any lore on caretakers of the forests?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18596" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5575" RevisionGUID="7519895b-d486-49f9-b109-b179488bfab4" CreationDate="2019-04-12T12:34:39.893" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by -1 edit id of 1730" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18597" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5575" RevisionGUID="4ff206dd-f2ad-4944-8c19-81cb01060527" CreationDate="2019-04-12T12:34:39.893" UserId="2807" Comment="corrected spelling" Text="With the significance of trees as representations of life in various cultures, do any of them ever mention caretakers of the forests? Or a defense against impurities and corruption?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or have they always been considered everlasting, near indestructible symbols of life? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(What follows is not important, it's just the result of what hidden triggers can shoot out of you) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I guess in the time of mythology the forests almost never ended, even if they did near the sea or a mountain,  it would start up again sooner or later.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; Nowadays, the forest is just a thing we let the smart people worry about." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18598" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5576" RevisionGUID="1c441d2e-a1fc-45ca-94d8-1022890fc8ae" CreationDate="2019-04-12T14:52:15.607" UserId="5963" Text="Well, I know that with the Ancient Celts the tree of life was a big thing to their culture, to the extent they believed they were trees, or came from trees. They saw them as the symbol for balance, and would leave a big tree to stay on their land because of their beliefs that they were magic (as they provided a multitude of uses such as food and medicine); because of this, cutting down a tree of life was seen as an offense.&#xD;&#xA;So in a way, the Celts were kind of like caretakers of the trees, but not necessarily forests.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to a bit of further research, I've found somewhat indirect answers to your questions.&#xD;&#xA;The trees were also seen as a symbol for rebirth and long life, because they lose and regrow their leaves each year. So everlasting, yes I guess you could say that. As for indestructible, that's debatable.&#xD;&#xA;It's also said that the trees were a gateway to the spirit world; that the tree of life's roots connect to the world below, while it's branches connect to the world above and it's trunk is the link that connects both of them to the Earth, which is how the Celts supposedly communicated with the gods. In this sense, I would personally say that it's safe to assume it can be a defense against impurities and corruption, especially when you factor in medicine being available from trees." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18599" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1220" RevisionGUID="0752ea0c-2fcf-4537-a10c-96239fe627e2" CreationDate="2019-04-12T14:58:28.030" UserId="-1" Comment="consistency" Text="No sources really say anything about this. Very well. From pure logic, I will create three theories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A quote that carries some base information.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;So Jupiter [Zeus] spoke, and then by [Styx] the stream of his Stygian brother, the banks where boiling pitch flows in black maelstrom, he nodded, confirming his promise: the nod caused all Olympus to tremble.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Death or Insanity #&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If both vows were placed, then each would nudge you to do whatever it said you to do. They would then get so strong, they would explode your mind. Or, if you fulfilled one of them, then you would go insane because you broke your Styx vow. Very unpleasant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# You can't / Replacement #&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have a feeling that the Greeks saw through this, and did NOT want to make people's mind explode. So if you were to make two contradictory vows, then the second one was the only one you had to fulfill.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Nothing #&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the quote, **Zeus** spoke. The River Styx could only make Olympus tremble if a god/ goddess did it. If you **are** a god/goddess then resort to 1 or 2." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18600" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1220" RevisionGUID="0752ea0c-2fcf-4537-a10c-96239fe627e2" CreationDate="2019-04-12T14:58:28.030" Comment="Proposed by anonymous approved by 967 edit id of 1724" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18601" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1569" RevisionGUID="a2f51f4d-9edb-4f1a-8bc1-967c3183e833" CreationDate="2019-04-12T14:58:35.827" UserId="4598" Comment="grammatical and spelling errors" Text="Your question reminded me of another myth - maybe you mixed up the two?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herodot describes a dialogue between Croesus and Solon on happiness:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;King Croesus is proud of his riches and considers himself the happiest man in the world. He asks the wise man Solon whether he has seen any other man happier then himself.&#xD;&#xA;Solon answers that he knows of King Tellos who was not only happy because he ruled over a peaceful and prosperous kingdom but also died gloriously in battle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;King Croesus then asks him who might be the second happiest man in the world, sure that he must be the one.&#xD;&#xA;Solon answers that once, there were two sons. Their mother needed to go by cart to a temple but the oxen which were supposed to pull the cart were still on the field and would never make it back on time. So the two sons went and pulled the cart instead to the temple. The whole crowd in front of the temple admired their devotion to their mother and their mother prayed to the goddess to grant her children happiness. All went to sleep but the two sons never woke up. They died in the moment of highest glory. The villagers praised them and built them statues.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Croesus becomes irritated and now asks Solon directly what the wise man thinks of his riches. Solon replies with the proverbial phrase to never judge a person's happiness before one sees how he ends. Croesus becomes angry but indeed, a few days after the wise man leaves, all kinds of disasters strike the king. His son dies in an accident and he loses a battle against the Persian king. Thinking of the wise man's words he cries out his name 'Solon, Solon, Solon!'. The Persian king asks him about the meaning of this, hears the story and is so impressed that he spares Croesus life and even makes him his counselor. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Bottom line: to die in the moment of highest happiness (granted by glory/youth/...) is itself a thing of happiness. Perhaps a variation of this also exists as a myth referring to Apollo. And I think I know of some more variations (athletes who die in the moment of their victory etc.) but can't remember, whether they, too, were an example of Solon or in a separate story." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18602" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1569" RevisionGUID="a2f51f4d-9edb-4f1a-8bc1-967c3183e833" CreationDate="2019-04-12T14:58:35.827" Comment="Proposed by 4598 approved by 2807, 967 edit id of 1725" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18603" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3475" RevisionGUID="dd44441b-1623-49c1-8632-15a6f03b7545" CreationDate="2019-04-12T14:58:39.477" UserId="4598" Comment="grammatical corrections" Text="I am not very fond of depictions of manticores with a human head or face. Did the manticore always have a human head, or is it an influence from the sphinx, or some other monster?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18604" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3475" RevisionGUID="dd44441b-1623-49c1-8632-15a6f03b7545" CreationDate="2019-04-12T14:58:39.477" UserId="4598" Comment="grammatical corrections" Text="Did the manticore always have a human head?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18605" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3475" RevisionGUID="dd44441b-1623-49c1-8632-15a6f03b7545" CreationDate="2019-04-12T14:58:39.477" Comment="Proposed by 4598 approved by 2807, 967 edit id of 1727" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18610" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5557" RevisionGUID="fe5ff38b-6ac2-4a6b-9bec-cccc8d933412" CreationDate="2019-04-13T15:33:55.317" UserId="4598" Comment="grammatical correction" Text="I have a vague recollection of a story involving an emperor asking the hero to choose between two bowls. If the hero picks the one covering a coin he will be rewarded, but if he picks the empty one he will be sentenced to death. The hero learns that the emperor is cheating and both bowls are empty, but cheats death by pointing to a bowl and saying, &quot;I pick this one&quot;, and then lifting the other bowl to reveal it is empty. Does anybody know this tale or one with a similar theme?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18611" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5557" RevisionGUID="fe5ff38b-6ac2-4a6b-9bec-cccc8d933412" CreationDate="2019-04-13T15:33:55.317" Comment="Proposed by 4598 approved by 2807, 5924 edit id of 1726" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18612" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5577" RevisionGUID="09f9db97-4b06-4035-b3cd-ef993e6b8e29" CreationDate="2019-04-13T17:51:45.813" UserId="5964" Text="I see the stages of spiritual awakening reflected in each labor:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Stage I: Labor of Sorting Seeds - Beginning. Journey of intentionally creating internal order through disciplined action with an aim.  We easily imagine the fast movement of the ants working at their aim without distraction and with great speed.  It mesmerizes.  They can also carry 1000 times their own weight.  In life, we are burdened with our own weight and the weight of society.  We successfully carry much less than we potentially can once we take the spiritual journey.  The vehicle for this labor is mastery of the body to be able to carry the weight of our own responsibilities, the tensions evoked by engaging the disciplines, as well as the weight that monotony brings -- this, to gain mastery of the body (ant/instincts).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Stage II: Labor of Acquiring the Golden Fleece - Journey of developing spiritual discernment for light/darkness, good/evil. The vehicle for this labor is the connection with or understanding of the wisdom of nature or natural laws (reed).    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Stage III: Labor of Acquiring Holy Water from a Crystal Urn:  Journey of making a connection with the soul,  the eternal part of ourselves.  The vehicle, this time, is heavenly -- Jove's bird or Zeus's bird. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Stage IV: Labor of Making the Journey to the Underworld: The journey of necessary full release from the body with all its' illusions (winning divine loves'favor with beauty believed to come from this elixir) and release from the illusions of the world (many snares laid by Venus).  The vehicle is the action of divine love to complete her, emancipate her, humanize her, enlighten her, free her.....     " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18613" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5578" RevisionGUID="394cc470-dbdc-481d-a9a8-c2b87d3ee873" CreationDate="2019-04-14T08:50:34.027" UserId="57" Text="In the first book of the Iliad Achilles mentions that Thetis, his sea nymph mother, once saved Zeus from a rebellion by Poseidon, Hera and Athena: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Help your brave son, therefore, if you are able. Go to Olympus, and if you have ever done him service in word or deed, implore the aid of Jove. Ofttimes in my father's house have I heard you glory in that you alone of the immortals saved the son of Saturn from ruin, when the others, with Juno, Neptune, and Pallas Minerva would have put him in bonds. It was you, goddess, who delivered him by calling to Olympus the hundred-handed monster whom gods call Briareus, but men Aegaeon, for he is stronger even than his father; when therefore he took his seat all-glorious beside the son of Saturn, the other gods were afraid, and did not bind him. Go, then, to him, remind him of all this, clasp his knees, and bid him give succour to the Trojans. Let the Achaeans be hemmed in at the sterns of their ships, and perish on the sea-shore, that they may reap what joy they may of their king, and that Agamemnon may rue his blindness in offering insult to the foremost of the Achaeans. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Iliad. By Homer. Translated by Samuel Butler&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do we know any details about this? Why did the three Olympians challenge Zeus? Were they punished afterwards? How exactly did Thetis manage to overcome three more powerful - presumably - gods?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, since all three Olympians have pre-Homeric roots, could this story be an echo of an older story of divine rebellion? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18614" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5578" RevisionGUID="394cc470-dbdc-481d-a9a8-c2b87d3ee873" CreationDate="2019-04-14T08:50:34.027" UserId="57" Text="What do we know of the rebellion against Zeus by Poseidon, Hera and Athena?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18615" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5578" RevisionGUID="394cc470-dbdc-481d-a9a8-c2b87d3ee873" CreationDate="2019-04-14T08:50:34.027" UserId="57" Text="|greek|zeus|olympians|iliad|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18616" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5578" RevisionGUID="4e9f5f2c-8aeb-4f89-bf9c-5542f5530c0c" CreationDate="2019-04-14T09:17:13.607" UserId="57" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="In the first book of the Iliad Achilles mentions that Thetis, his sea nymph mother, once saved Zeus from a rebellion by Poseidon, Hera and Athena: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Help your brave son, therefore, if you are able. Go to Olympus, and if you have ever done him service in word or deed, implore the aid of Jove. Ofttimes in my father's house have I heard you glory in that you alone of the immortals saved the son of Saturn from ruin, when the others, with Juno, Neptune, and Pallas Minerva would have put him in bonds. It was you, goddess, who delivered him by calling to Olympus the hundred-handed monster whom gods call Briareus, but men Aegaeon, for he is stronger even than his father; when therefore he took his seat all-glorious beside the son of Saturn, the other gods were afraid, and did not bind him. Go, then, to him, remind him of all this, clasp his knees, and bid him give succour to the Trojans. Let the Achaeans be hemmed in at the sterns of their ships, and perish on the sea-shore, that they may reap what joy they may of their king, and that Agamemnon may rue his blindness in offering insult to the foremost of the Achaeans. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Iliad. By Homer. Translated by Samuel Butler&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do we know any details about this? Why did the three Olympians challenge Zeus? Were they punished afterwards? How exactly did Thetis manage to overcome three more powerful - presumably - gods?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, since all three Olympians have pre-Homeric roots, could this story echo an earlier tale of divine rebellion? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18617" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5579" RevisionGUID="1e5bfc89-3618-455d-8787-95ec23552540" CreationDate="2019-04-14T12:00:27.773" UserId="3230" Text="Chicken is often used to mean someone is a coward. This is exemplified in the [game of chicken][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When did chicken first become a synonym of cowardice?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_(game)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18618" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5579" RevisionGUID="1e5bfc89-3618-455d-8787-95ec23552540" CreationDate="2019-04-14T12:00:27.773" UserId="3230" Text="When did chicken become a synonym of cowardice?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18619" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5579" RevisionGUID="1e5bfc89-3618-455d-8787-95ec23552540" CreationDate="2019-04-14T12:00:27.773" UserId="3230" Text="|folklore|animals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18620" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5538" RevisionGUID="7400fc3a-bcc3-4f93-933b-bb0c0955c1ea" CreationDate="2019-04-14T12:18:36.167" UserId="3230" Comment="edited title" Text="What are some sentient creatures of pre-Columbian Mesoamerican mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18625" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5580" RevisionGUID="c884f1bc-6bcb-4cc7-ae3d-0ed72124ec2f" CreationDate="2019-04-14T20:06:53.697" UserId="1317" Text="OK, so there are a couple of misconceptions here. First, as Codosaur has already pointed out, [Cronus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus) and [Chronos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronos) aren't necessarily the same being -- they just have similar names.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the other hand, Cronus and Chronos were confused with each other even in antiquity. In fact the Roman god [Saturn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_(mythology)), who the Romans associated with the Greek god Cronus, was sometimes regarded as a god of Time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This gives us a reson to address the more fundamental misconception -- even if we're allowed to conflate the Titan Cronus with the personnification of Time, this doesn't grant him some sort of &quot;superpower&quot; to turn back time.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt; _Tempus edax rerum, tuque, invidiosa vetustas, omnia destruitis vitiataque dentibus aevi paulatim lenta consumitis omnia morte!_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt; _(O Time, devourer of all things, and envious Age, together you destroy all that exists and, slowly gnawing, bring on lingering death.)_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Ovid, Metamorphoses, 15, Tr. Brookes Moore, availableat the [Theoi Project](https://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses15.html))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ancient Greeks and Romans didn't think of time as something that could be reversed -- this is in line with the [fatalism](https://www.britannica.com/topic/fatalism) that expresses itself time after time in their mythology. You couldn't cheat fate by going back in time and changing things. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Instead, Time was regarded as a force that devours everything and wears it away to nothing. This may have been  something Goya had in mind when  he painted his famous painting of Saturn:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Francisco Goya, Saturn Devouring his Son](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Francisco_de_Goya%2C_Saturno_devorando_a_su_hijo_%281819-1823%29.jpg)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Source: Wikimedia Commons)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, we can answer why Zeus won. The most facile reason is that he was fated to do so, because Fate already ruled the gods. More to the point, Zeus had some powerful allies. His mother Rhea, whose strategies had kept Zeus from being swallowed alog with his brothers and sisters. He had his brothers and sisters, whom Cronus had vomited up after Zeus gave him the drink Rhea concocted  for the purpose. The Cyclopes and a couple of titans such as Prometheus allied with Zeus. Most important were the [Hekatonchires](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecatoncheires) or &quot;Hundred-handed ones&quot; imprisoned by Cronus's father Ouranos: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;But when first their father was vexed in his heart with Briareus and Cottus and Gyes, he bound them in cruel bonds, because he was jealous of their exceeding manhood and comeliness and great size: and he made them live beneath the wide-pathed earth, where they were afflicted, being set to dwell under the ground, at the end of the earth, at its great borders, in bitter anguish for a long time and with great grief at heart. But the son of Cronos and the other deathless gods whom rich-haired Rhea bare from union with Cronos, brought them up again to the light at Earth's advising. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;And blameless Cottus answered him again: `Divine one, you speak that which we know well: nay, even of ourselves we know that your wisdom and understanding is exceeding, and that you became a defender of the deathless ones from chill doom. And through your devising we are come back again from the murky gloom and from our merciless bonds, enjoying what we looked not for, O lord, son of Cronos. And so now with fixed purpose and deliberate counsel we will aid your power in dreadful strife and will fight against the Titans in hard battle.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And amongst the foremost Cottus and Briareos and Gyes insatiate for war raised fierce fighting: three hundred rocks, one upon another, they launched from their strong hands and overshadowed the Titans with their missiles, and buried them beneath the wide-pathed earth, and bound them in bitter chains when they had conquered them by their strength for all their great spirit, as far beneath the earth to Tartarus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(The Theogony of Hesiod. tr. Hugh G. Evelyn-White, lines 617 ff.), at http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18626" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="1375" RevisionGUID="8759e1af-9239-4a78-868a-40f8f9ef9c6f" CreationDate="2019-04-15T02:00:55.137" UserId="-1" Comment="81" />
  <row Id="18627" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5581" RevisionGUID="d9f072ff-57eb-4ca5-a9b2-4014e3c5d54c" CreationDate="2019-04-15T05:43:36.950" UserId="5967" Text="According to this [Quora answer](https://www.quora.com/When-did-chicken-become-synonymous-with-afraid-terrified/answer/Jonathon-Green?srid=Odhf&amp;share=1) on the exact same topic:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The primary uses, however, remain those that suggest weakness. Thus the early use to mean a girl or woman, which would become the more recent chick. Such chickens also suggest the 'cuteness' and 'fluffiness' of the creature.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The first example we have of chicken meaning a coward comes in 1600. It runs thus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; 1600 W. Kemp Nine Days’ Wonder: It did him good to have ill words of a hoddy doddy! a hebber de hoy!, a chicken! a squib." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18628" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5541" RevisionGUID="df777099-d7da-4e15-bc8c-13200d9b3d51" CreationDate="2019-04-15T05:49:38.120" UserId="5726" Comment="added 73 characters in body" Text="Concerning mythology made and believed in by sailors since ancient times." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18629" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5541" RevisionGUID="df777099-d7da-4e15-bc8c-13200d9b3d51" CreationDate="2019-04-15T05:49:38.120" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 967, 108 edit id of 1717" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18630" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5307" RevisionGUID="25669d19-139d-4dd3-860a-88a49c9bbd7c" CreationDate="2019-04-15T05:49:44.333" UserId="5726" Comment="Added applicable tags" Text="|comparative|origins|creation|flood-myth|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18631" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5307" RevisionGUID="25669d19-139d-4dd3-860a-88a49c9bbd7c" CreationDate="2019-04-15T05:49:44.333" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 967, 108 edit id of 1722" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18632" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5524" RevisionGUID="192a2321-e59f-4791-a50b-6c5642972ae6" CreationDate="2019-04-15T05:49:47.990" UserId="5726" Comment="added applicable tags" Text="|comparative|underworld|afterlife|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18633" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5524" RevisionGUID="192a2321-e59f-4791-a50b-6c5642972ae6" CreationDate="2019-04-15T05:49:47.990" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 967, 108 edit id of 1721" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18634" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5577" RevisionGUID="f7c171f7-96fa-4195-aa0b-6b949a465a7f" CreationDate="2019-04-15T10:44:07.173" UserId="5964" Comment="added 155 characters in body" Text="I see the stages of spiritual awakening reflected in each labor:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Stage I: Labor of Sorting Seeds - Beginning. Journey of intentionally creating internal order through disciplined action with an aim.  We easily imagine the fast movement of the ants working at their aim without distraction and with great speed.  It mesmerizes.  They can also carry 1000 times their own weight.  In life, we are burdened with our own weight and the weight of society.  We successfully carry much less than we potentially can once we take the spiritual journey.  The vehicle for this labor is mastery of the body, by which I mean a deep conscious knowing and love for the body to be able to use it artfully.Once known, we are able to carry the weight of our own responsibilities, the tensions evoked by engaging the disciplines, as well as the weight that monotony (conscious cycling without sensory stimulation) brings -- this, to gain mastery of the body (ant/instincts).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Stage II: Labor of Acquiring the Golden Fleece - Journey of developing spiritual discernment for light/darkness, good/evil. The vehicle for this labor is the connection with or understanding of the wisdom of nature or natural laws (reed).    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Stage III: Labor of Acquiring Holy Water from a Crystal Urn:  Journey of making a connection with the soul,  the eternal part of ourselves.  The vehicle, this time, is heavenly -- Jove's bird or Zeus's bird. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Stage IV: Labor of Making the Journey to the Underworld: The journey of necessary full release from the body with all its' illusions (winning divine loves'favor with beauty believed to come from this elixir) and release from the illusions of the world (many snares laid by Venus).  The vehicle is the action of divine love to complete her, emancipate her, humanize her, enlighten her, free her.....     " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18635" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5539" RevisionGUID="98418ab2-0109-46c4-bdc5-58e8d825e571" CreationDate="2019-04-16T09:58:45.730" UserId="3230" Comment="deleted 76 characters in body; edited title" Text="Most religions today condemn the use of tattoos but **what was the first recorded mythology or religion that encouraged the tattooing of their followers?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The majority of Sunni Muslims believe tattooing is a sin, because it involves changing the natural creation of God, inflicting unnecessary pain in the process.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some Christians take issue with tattooing, upholding the Hebrew prohibition. The Hebrew prohibition is based on interpretingQ&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Leviticus 19:28][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tattoos are generally forbidden in Judaism based on the [Torah (Leviticus 19:28):][2] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;You shall not make gashes in your flesh for the dead, or incise any marks on yourselves: I am the Lord.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know that the Kmer people used [Yantra tattooing][3] and that this practice was taken over by Buddhist monks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Southeast Asia has a tradition of protective tattoos known as sak yant or yantra tattoos that incorporate Buddhist symbols and images, as well as protective mantras or sutra verses in antique Khmer script.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These tattoos are sometimes applied by Buddhist monks or practitioners of indigenous spiritual traditions. Traditionally, tattoos that included images of the Buddha or other religious figures were only applied to certain parts of the body, and sometimes required commitment on the part of the recipient to observe the Five Precepts or other traditional customs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Hinduism [Mehndi][4] tattoos are made of henna and are not permanent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tattoos are allowed culturally and religiously, although contemporary tattoos is uncommon among traditional Hindus. Historical roots date back to the practice of Mehndi using Henna.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ötzi][5] is Europe's oldest known natural human mummy, and has offered an unprecedented view of Chalcolithic (Copper Age) Europeans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ötzi had a total of 61 tattoos (or Soot tattoos), consisting of 19 groups of black lines ranging from 1 to 3 mm in thickness and 7 to 40 mm long. These include groups of parallel lines running along the longitudinal axis of his body and to both sides of the lumbar spine, as well as a cruciform mark behind the right knee and on the right ankle, and parallel lines around the left wrist. The greatest concentration of markings is found on his legs, which together exhibit 12 groups of lines. A microscopic examination of samples collected from these tattoos revealed that they were created from pigment manufactured out of fireplace ash or soot.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Radiological examination of Ötzi's bones showed &quot;age-conditioned or strain-induced degeneration&quot; corresponding to many tattooed areas, including osteochondrosis and slight spondylosis in the lumbar spine and wear-and-tear degeneration in the knee and especially in the ankle joints. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It has been speculated that these tattoos may have been related to pain relief treatments similar to acupressure or acupuncture. If so, this is at least 2,000 years before their previously known earliest use in China (c. 1000 BCE). Recent research into archaeological evidence for ancient tattooing has confirmed that Ötzi is the oldest tattooed human mummy yet&#xD;&#xA;&gt; discovered.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[source 1][6] [source 2][7]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Leviticus-19-28/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9920/jewish/Chapter-19.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yantra_tattooing&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehndi&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96tzi&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1296207415000023?via%3Dihub&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://web.archive.org/web/20151117033016/http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1113319184/scan-finds-new-tattoos-on-5300-year-old-iceman-012215/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18636" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5539" RevisionGUID="98418ab2-0109-46c4-bdc5-58e8d825e571" CreationDate="2019-04-16T09:58:45.730" UserId="3230" Comment="deleted 76 characters in body; edited title" Text="What is the first recorded religion that encouraged the tattooing of their followers?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18637" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5565" RevisionGUID="2c143094-9e24-47e5-840b-cd9878704fd6" CreationDate="2019-04-16T10:00:46.387" UserId="3230" Comment="added 2 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="The Mnong are one of the many Degar peoples of central Vietnam. They have a series of epic song stories that tell of their mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have been looking for translations of these. Does anyone know where I can find these? There are Vietnamese versions but unfortunately, I cannot read Vietnamese.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks in advance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As requested: https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/005237589" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18638" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5565" RevisionGUID="2c143094-9e24-47e5-840b-cd9878704fd6" CreationDate="2019-04-16T10:00:46.387" UserId="3230" Comment="added 2 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Where can I find english translations of the mythology of the Mnong people?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18639" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5565" RevisionGUID="2c143094-9e24-47e5-840b-cd9878704fd6" CreationDate="2019-04-16T10:00:46.387" UserId="3230" Comment="added 2 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|translation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18640" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5582" RevisionGUID="1053afe5-4c57-4f93-a06a-8812ef4590b4" CreationDate="2019-04-16T10:18:23.330" UserId="3230" Text="In the [Iliad (Book V)][1] Ares complains to Zeus that he lets Athena - the pestilent maiden - get away with anything:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Speedily he came to the abode of the gods, to steep Olympus, and sate him down by the side of Zeus, son of Cronos, grieved at heart, and shewed the immortal blood flowing from the wound, and with wailing spake to him winged words: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Father Zeus, hast thou no indignation to behold these violent deeds? Ever do we gods continually suffer most cruelly by one another's devices, whenas we show favour to men. With thee are we all at strife, for thou art father to that mad and baneful maid, whose mind is ever set on deeds of lawlessness. For all the other gods that are in Olympus are obedient unto thee, and subject to thee, each one of us; but to her thou payest no heed whether in word or in deed, but rather settest her on, for that this pestilent maiden is thine own child. Now hath she set on the son of Tydeus, Diomedes high of heart, to vent his rage upon immortal gods. Cypris first he wounded with a thrust in close fight upon the hand at the wrist, and thereafter rushed upon mine own self as he had been a god. Howbeit my swift feet bare me away; otherwise had I long suffered woes there amid the gruesome heaps of the dead, or else had lived strengthless by reason of the smitings of the spear.” &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is in response to Athena helping her favorite Diomedes wound Ares in battle. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D5%3Acard%3D864" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18641" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5307" RevisionGUID="fa79ccb8-1249-4d4b-bc82-18ac38c6f320" CreationDate="2019-04-16T11:40:28.167" UserId="3230" Comment="edited title" Text="Why do so many cultures have a myth of the world being made or remade from water?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18642" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5583" RevisionGUID="daffcf1a-c79b-4955-8f7d-e11cb7699783" CreationDate="2019-04-16T18:29:33.453" UserId="5971" Text="A team of friends/colleagues from Honduras mentioned that they will name their project after a local legend, myth, or hero. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They told me the name several times, but only verbally so I don't know how to spell it. I've spent a surprisingly long time searching for it online without being able to find anything.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I believe the phonetic spelling would be something like &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Sumati&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; or &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Sumadi&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18643" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5583" RevisionGUID="daffcf1a-c79b-4955-8f7d-e11cb7699783" CreationDate="2019-04-16T18:29:33.453" UserId="5971" Text="Hondurean folklore name like &quot;Sumadi&quot; or &quot;Sumati&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18644" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5583" RevisionGUID="daffcf1a-c79b-4955-8f7d-e11cb7699783" CreationDate="2019-04-16T18:29:33.453" UserId="5971" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18645" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5583" RevisionGUID="f0a14371-c28d-4147-87a4-79543ac34597" CreationDate="2019-04-17T01:37:08.263" UserId="5971" Comment="added 153 characters in body" Text="A team of friends/colleagues from Honduras mentioned that they will name their project after a local legend, myth, or hero. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They told me the name several times, but only verbally so I don't know how to spell it. I've spent a surprisingly long time searching for it online without being able to find anything.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I believe the phonetic spelling would be something like &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Sumati&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; or &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Sumadi&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found this online briefly once during a meeting, but can't find it again. I must be mispelling it. I'm starting to wonder if there's an 'r' in there..." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18646" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5584" RevisionGUID="c7d37294-f1ad-4829-991a-b3f0c4d7fd33" CreationDate="2019-04-17T16:10:58.857" UserId="5974" Text="Well logically, if you were to start your own religion, you have to build principles of the &quot;Cycle of life&quot;, so as to explain life and death. To explain this cycle with respect to the world, you need to think of some ways for large scale destruction. What is something that's almost everywhere in the world, some that can engulf the world , so as to start a new beginning? The seas of course! &#xD;&#xA;At least I feel that this line of thought is the reason for most of the myths." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18647" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5585" RevisionGUID="ce57829f-01a1-4177-b421-19f7de0560b1" CreationDate="2019-04-17T20:32:53.230" UserId="5975" Text="I agree with one of the earlier statements that the myth is about love, but I also think it can arguably fit a huge variety of complex archetypes. While I'm not a scholar and am not intimately familiar with the myth, I do have a recommendation for a philisophical interpretation of it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;C.S. Lewis' re-telling, *'Til We Have Faces*, is an incredibly in-depth look at his view of the myth. He uses the myth to demonstrate the ambivalence of love, and to question the role of the Divine in its application. It is a beautiful and heart wrenching book, if you can get past the traditional dryness of Lewis' writing style. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are technically two books: the first is a first-person retelling of events by Psyche's sister as sort of an autobiography. The second is about a dream she had, and is where he connects the old myths with his version of events. This is where you have the symbolism of the tasks. His character ruminates over them a bit and provides insight into the symbolism by context of the events of her life in relation to Psyche and the Divine.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I really can't recommend this book enough--it should be considered among the great classics. The [audiobook](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jW1BYnVRy4) is worth a listen, if you're interested.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18648" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5586" RevisionGUID="ba14942f-1505-4872-98d2-5ce9c16a3344" CreationDate="2019-04-17T21:18:50.963" UserId="5726" Text="Trees have been venerated since time immemorial. To the [ancient Celts][1], certain trees, especially the oak, ash and thorn, held special significance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; To the Celts, Druids and many other peoples of the old world, certain trees held special significance as a fuel for heat, cooking, building materials and weaponry. In addition to this however, many woods also provided a powerful spiritual presence. The specific trees varied between different cultures and geographic locations, but those believed to be &quot;sacred&quot; shared certain traits. Unusual size, beauty, the wide range of materials they provided, unique physical characteristics, or simply the power of the tree's spirit could grant it a central place in the folklore and mythology of a culture. &lt;sub&gt;[wicca site][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Oak has been considered sacred by just about every culture that has encountered the tree, but it was held in particular esteem by the Celts because of its size, longevity, and [nutritious acorns][3]. The oak was the &quot;King of Trees&quot; in a grove. Magick wands were made of its wood. Oak galls, known as Serpent Eggs, were used in magickal charms. Acorns gathered at night held the greatest fertility powers. The Druids and Priestesses listened to the rustling oak leaves and the wrens in the trees for divinatory messages.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Celtic_religion&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://wicca.com/celtic/celtic/sactrees.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.reference.com/food/acorns-edible-5d17e8f70c3fb223" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18649" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5584" RevisionGUID="4173e32e-80a2-4018-b63f-519a2995a4f1" CreationDate="2019-04-18T20:21:40.340" UserId="4271" Comment="punctuation" Text="Well, if you were to start your own religion, you have to build principles of the, &quot;Cycle of life,&quot; so as to explain life and death. To explain this cycle with respect to the world, you think of some ways for large scale destruction. What is something that's almost everywhere in the world? Something that can engulf the world, so as to start a new beginning? The seas, of course!  &#xD;&#xA;At least I feel that this line of thought is the reason for most of the myths." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18650" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="4770" RevisionGUID="acb8410b-85d8-45c3-9198-df0d9ef6f1e9" CreationDate="2019-04-18T20:22:13.743" UserId="5726" Comment="Added applicable tags" Text="|origins|names|concepts|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18651" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4770" RevisionGUID="acb8410b-85d8-45c3-9198-df0d9ef6f1e9" CreationDate="2019-04-18T20:22:13.743" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 967, 4271 edit id of 1723" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18652" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4644" RevisionGUID="b032656e-7e6a-4092-b4ea-ae6c5800dd97" CreationDate="2019-04-18T20:23:45.323" UserId="3315" Comment="broken link fixed" Text="In Basque mythology, [Gaueko][1] is the spirit or guardian of the night. He does not allow certain types of work to be done outside at nighttime, and he punishes those who boast that they are not afraid of the dark. He sometimes makes his presence felt as a gust of wind, or takes the form of a [black dog][2] or a bull. His name literally means &quot;of the night&quot; and appears in phrases such as &quot;gaueko hontza&quot; (night owl) and &quot;gaueko hasperenak&quot; (night sighs).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does Gaeuko connect with the notion of &quot;upperness&quot; or &quot;superiority&quot; denoted by the Basque word &quot;goiko&quot;?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaueko&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://exemplore.com/advanced-ancients/mythologicaldogsparti" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18653" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4644" RevisionGUID="b032656e-7e6a-4092-b4ea-ae6c5800dd97" CreationDate="2019-04-18T20:23:45.323" Comment="Proposed by 3315 approved by 2807, 4271 edit id of 1731" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18654" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4873" RevisionGUID="74ef3c92-04a9-4c7d-a84e-6ed30758908f" CreationDate="2019-04-19T03:18:21.153" UserId="4271" Comment="added 17 characters in body" Text="Kitsune have something called a [Hoshi no tama][1], star ball or kitsune ball. They are white and/or gold orbs. The orb is like a kitsune's life force so they [hide it][2], usually in their mouths or on their tails. If someone manages to get a hold of the orb, they have control over the kitsune.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the extent of that control? Could one keep a kitsune until they die and the kitsune reclaim the ball?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.mythicalcreaturesguide.com/page/Kitsune&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsune" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18662" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4997" RevisionGUID="fd880648-174b-4a97-8356-664993279981" CreationDate="2019-04-22T20:02:59.720" UserId="3315" Comment="broken link fixed" Text="Check out: Fairy Legends and Traditions of the South of Ireland by Thomas Crofton Croker&#xD;&#xA;[http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/39752][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Brothers Grimm translated Crokers Fairy Legends][2] and provided a summary in the beginning of their translation. Below is what they said, loosely translated and paraphrased:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Fairies always live in large groups, never alone or in pairs. They are invisible to humans. Their houses are in rock cracks, caves and old giant hills. They love music. They celebrate under roomy mushrooms. They disappear at first light. They love to play ball, which they play with great eagerness, sometimes they come into dispute when playing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is of course much more.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See also: Lays and Legends of the North of Ireland by Cruck-a-leaghan, Slieve Gallion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[https://archive.org/details/laysandlegendsn00gallgoog][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/39752&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.com/books?id=PB39g_hUDIgC&amp;pg=PA9&amp;dq=irische%20elfen&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwi9x4edy9vaAhWF7IMKHX8qAtQQ6AEILTAB#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://archive.org/details/laysandlegendsn00gallgoog" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18663" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4997" RevisionGUID="fd880648-174b-4a97-8356-664993279981" CreationDate="2019-04-22T20:02:59.720" Comment="Proposed by 3315 approved by 2807, 5013 edit id of 1732" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18664" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5588" RevisionGUID="574a425f-ab9e-4d66-b3bd-ff4a4ecda99a" CreationDate="2019-04-23T07:38:41.310" UserId="5986" Text="The issue with figuring the answer to this is to know that Norse mythology now has been convoluted by old Christianity. This was done to make people who follow the Norse mythology to be easier to lead into Christianity. As Helheim was made after Christianity helped change it. The original realms were as so&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Asgard&#xD;&#xA;2. Vanaheim&#xD;&#xA;3. Alfheim&#xD;&#xA;4. Midgard&#xD;&#xA;5. Jotunheim&#xD;&#xA;6. Nimvilier&#xD;&#xA;7. Svartlehime&#xD;&#xA;8. Muspell&#xD;&#xA;9. Niflheim&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This was the original list of the realms but as stated it was later changed to make it easier to convert Nordics to Christianity. As it was easy to link Ragnarok meaning the end of gods with Christianity. As the world will be born again from the fires of Surtur. Christians of old used this to convert many Vikings or Nordics into their faith as they could use this for how Adam and Eve started as only 2 humans are to survive Ragnarok. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another thing that contributed to this was that Hel daughter of Loki whom watched over the dead was doing this in the realm of Niflheim. But in order to link the bible and Norse mythology more. They changed a little in order to add the realm Hel where the dead are that are not taken to Valhalla or . when originally they went to Niflheim as Hel resided there. others who died in battle or not of age or sickness went to Valhalla located in Asgard or Folkvang in Vanaheim. So other then the changes do to different religions leaking in these were the original nine realms. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So in turn the answer is no Dwarves and Dark Elves are not the same. they were mixed together to be able to add in the realm of Hel." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18668" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5591" RevisionGUID="7d1ac4da-7727-4e39-b5aa-3454ae894c10" CreationDate="2019-04-23T21:22:54.857" UserId="2892" Text="In Tolkien's  [Silmarillion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Silmarillion) the [Dark Elves (*Moriquendi*)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moriquendi) are definitely elves and distinct from dwarves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tom Shippey, a professor of Old and Middle English, believed that Tolkien took the concept from the [ljósálfar (light-elves) and dökkálfar (dark-elves)][1] of the Prose Edda. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sturluson seems to contradict himself by stating that the dark elves are dwarves, and this inconsistency has been investigated since at least the 19th century. [Shippey suggests][2] that &quot;one of [Tolkien's] starting points of his whole developed mythology was this problem in nomenclature, this apparent contradiction in ancient texts...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%B6kk%C3%A1lfar_and_Lj%C3%B3s%C3%A1lfar&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moriquendi#Concept_and_creation" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18669" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2983" RevisionGUID="d4aa6c21-4cc8-49c2-aa3b-31534f935eee" CreationDate="2019-04-24T18:19:55.913" UserId="4182" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="The hero of Iliad, Achilles is half man and half god because his mother is a goddess and his father is a man. Then how come is Gilgamesh 2/3 god? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18670" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5586" RevisionGUID="b6cc3611-8825-46fb-b00f-e6e1bb0bf7e9" CreationDate="2019-04-24T20:16:20.160" UserId="5726" Comment="deleted 360 characters in body" Text="To the [ancient Celts][1], certain trees, especially the oak, ash and thorn, held special significance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; To the Celts, Druids and many other peoples of the old world, certain trees held special significance as a fuel for heat, cooking, building materials and weaponry. In addition to this however, many woods also provided a powerful spiritual presence. The specific trees varied between different cultures and geographic locations, but those believed to be &quot;sacred&quot; shared certain traits. Unusual size, beauty, the wide range of materials they provided, unique physical characteristics, or simply the power of the tree's spirit could grant it a central place in the folklore and mythology of a culture. &lt;sub&gt;[wicca site][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Oak has been considered sacred by the Celts because of its size, longevity, and [nutritious acorns][3]. The oak was the &quot;King of Trees&quot; in a grove.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Celtic_religion&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://wicca.com/celtic/celtic/sactrees.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.reference.com/food/acorns-edible-5d17e8f70c3fb223&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://occult-world.com/uncategorized/serpents-egg/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18671" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5592" RevisionGUID="ae91abb5-ca81-4afa-885e-2c39d1131ab3" CreationDate="2019-04-25T05:42:15.153" UserId="5986" Text="There is a common misconception that Ragnarok is the full end. But in all truth, Ragnarok is only the end of the gods or Twilight of the gods. And not even all of them. Mainly Tyr, Odin, Loki, Freyr, Heimdall, Thor, and most the gods on Asgard if not all. Mainly noted survivors will be 2 humans and Baldur, Magdi and Modi (sons of Thor) Vili Vey, many goddesses, and a few others. But most will die and the world will come out from the water and fire covered in lush green plant life. And Asgard and Midgard will be made anew from the survivors." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18673" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5594" RevisionGUID="1c7e91df-b509-4f76-8bd6-454baae546f8" CreationDate="2019-04-25T12:10:11.577" UserId="3798" Text="According to [Learn Religions][1] and many astrology websites, the number of crows you see predicts the future:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Seeing just a single crow is considered an omen of bad luck. Finding&#xD;&#xA;&gt; two crows, however, means good luck. (Three crows mean health, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; four crows mean wealth.) Yet spotting five crows means sickness is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; coming, and witnessing six crows means death is nearby.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where does this superstition come from?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.learnreligions.com/the-magic-of-crows-and-ravens-2562511" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18674" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5594" RevisionGUID="1c7e91df-b509-4f76-8bd6-454baae546f8" CreationDate="2019-04-25T12:10:11.577" UserId="3798" Text="Where does the idea of counting crows come from?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18675" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5594" RevisionGUID="1c7e91df-b509-4f76-8bd6-454baae546f8" CreationDate="2019-04-25T12:10:11.577" UserId="3798" Text="|origins|animals|superstition|astrology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18676" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5595" RevisionGUID="f8aae28b-8cd6-43f8-93bf-9a2424c9f857" CreationDate="2019-04-25T13:41:13.350" UserId="5999" Text="I am interested in the theme of **human children** nursed and/or raised out of human society (e.g. Mowgli or Romulus and Remus), whether by animals, gods, flowers, aliens, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;###Are there any myths in other cultures where such a theme appears previous to Romulus and Remus?###&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ideally, I would like to know which is the oldest myth where such a theme appears (to the best of our knowledge) but that might be impossible to know for certain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18677" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5595" RevisionGUID="f8aae28b-8cd6-43f8-93bf-9a2424c9f857" CreationDate="2019-04-25T13:41:13.350" UserId="5999" Text="Children raised out of human society - myths" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18678" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5595" RevisionGUID="f8aae28b-8cd6-43f8-93bf-9a2424c9f857" CreationDate="2019-04-25T13:41:13.350" UserId="5999" Text="|myth-identification|comparative|romulus-and-remus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18680" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5596" RevisionGUID="3fecc719-570d-4fbc-b695-cb0a428e746b" CreationDate="2019-04-25T17:32:24.707" UserId="6003" Text="I'm looking for references to schools in the sky.  Was there a school that the Greek gods attended?  A university frequented by the Norse pantheon?  An academy in Tian?   I'd love any pointers you've got. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18681" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5596" RevisionGUID="3fecc719-570d-4fbc-b695-cb0a428e746b" CreationDate="2019-04-25T17:32:24.707" UserId="6003" Text="School in the Sky?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18682" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5596" RevisionGUID="3fecc719-570d-4fbc-b695-cb0a428e746b" CreationDate="2019-04-25T17:32:24.707" UserId="6003" Text="|greek|norse|roman|egyptian|chinese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18683" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5597" RevisionGUID="882a1f6b-97de-480e-a277-489095e55f04" CreationDate="2019-04-25T20:04:28.730" UserId="2892" Text=" - [Enkidu][1], companion of Gilgamesh was definitely raised outside of human society&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Essentially, he is a wild man that is tricked into losing his kinship with the wild beasts by laying with a woman. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Enkidu would likely be the oldest, as Gilgamesh is one of the oldest surviving mythical texts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enkidu" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18684" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5598" RevisionGUID="ea4e5bd6-d65d-4d97-a5c1-b23e628c0e8f" CreationDate="2019-04-26T16:59:24.097" UserId="6006" Text="well I don't really know more than those couple you listed above but I do know that in norse mythology the viking who died bravely in battle went to valhalla while the unhonorable dead (the people that died of old age and that kind of stuff) went to helheim. in another religion- i don't know which one it is though - there was limbo kind of like the fields of asphodel in hades but in a more temporary kind of way. another one was that the jehovahs witness didn't believe in heaven or hell so they chose to believe the in between also known as purgatory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;but like I said above I don't really know more than those couple you listed before." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18685" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5599" RevisionGUID="b3b5708d-3653-49fc-8322-7a28c73f9429" CreationDate="2019-04-26T17:21:43.760" UserId="2892" Text="I did some quick searching and found this page recounting a British nursery rhyme, with the oldest version accounted to be:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One for sorrow, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Two for mirth, &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Three for a funeral &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And four for birth. &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [British Bird Lovers][1] referencing *[Proverbs and Popular Saying of the Seasons][2]* by Michael Aislabie Denham&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The rhyme appears to have several subsequent variations over the years.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The tradition of foretelling the future by the flight of birds is known as [Augury][3], and was already ancient by the Classical period. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.britishbirdlovers.co.uk/articles/one-for-sorrow-magpie-nursery-rhyme&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.com/books?id=RgsJAAAAQAAJ&amp;pg=PA35#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augury" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18686" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5600" RevisionGUID="262c0d5c-0598-4f84-b859-4d88402e20fc" CreationDate="2019-04-26T19:00:45.853" UserId="6006" Text="Odin and Zeus are the most alike out of the three since they both rule over a group of gods from a giant palace in the sky (I do believe that Asgard is in the sky but I may be wrong and it might be one of the nine realms.) and they command some kind of all-seeing magic unlike many of the other gods. but they both fought and won a great battle that lasted over the centuries. the Christian god is nothing like the other two because first of all, they both had legions of children (especially Zeus since he was very unfaithful to Hera) while the Christian god only had one- Jesus. the Christians have a monotheism thing going on while the greeks and many other religions like it - including the Norse- believed in polytheism. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18687" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5601" RevisionGUID="989a0acc-9a17-4090-bfb5-4e7e8291ce41" CreationDate="2019-04-26T20:34:32.123" UserId="2892" Text="Buddhism and Hinduism believe in many lives, and do have heavens and hells. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Naraka][1] (a Hindu hell)&#xD;&#xA; - [Vaikuntha][2] (a Hindu heaven)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At a high level, a distinction between these two religions is that in Buddhism, everything is impermanent and therefore illusory (including heaven and hell), as opposed to the Hindu conception of everything as cyclic and eternal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Tian][3] (the Chinese heaven)&#xD;&#xA; - [Diyu][4] (the Chinese hell)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Chinese tradition is equally rich, and a function of some degree of [syncretism][5] between Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, and traditional folk religions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naraka_(Hinduism)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaikuntha&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tian&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diyu&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syncretism" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18690" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2971" RevisionGUID="2b16018b-61b9-4209-874e-d52c9d4041f5" CreationDate="2019-04-30T02:26:35.500" UserId="3741" Comment="deleted 4 characters in body" Text="As I'm sure all of you know, the Old Testament is the Hebrew bible. Why then do Christians not follow the same rules as the Jews? When Christianity was attracting attention, Paul said that Jews who converted had to follow the Jewish law, but gentiles did not. If the halacha (Jewish law) is still technically in the Christian bible, then why are things like keeping Kosher not observed by Christians? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, if a Jew were to convert today, do they use Paul's idea, or stop following Jewish law (obviously it's up to the person, but is there any evidence to suggest that that's how it should be done)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18691" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5603" RevisionGUID="255b3092-ec62-42f4-a4fe-601a70ebb915" CreationDate="2019-04-30T05:13:46.460" UserId="6013" Text="Tyr &amp; Thor were both sons of Odin, but each were raised by foster giant parents. Tyr's foster parents were the giants (jotuns) Hymir &amp; Hroðr (sometimes named Griseldis) and Thor's foster parents were Vingnir &amp; Hlor. In Thor's case he was sent to Vingnir by Odin because he was too much to handle for Frigga. Thor is sometimes know as Vingthor (an ekename). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tyr was raised by Hymir as a sort of peace treaty with the giants. Kindof like after the Aesir &amp; Vanir war gods were swapped between the two groups to create peace - Njord, Frey &amp; Freyr came to live with the Aesir &amp; Mirmir &amp; Hoenir went to live with the Vanir. Funny thing is when Tyr &amp; Thor were adults &amp; went back to live with the Aesir, Tyr led Thor to Hymir &amp; Thor ending up killing Hymir.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Norse Myths by Heilan Yvette Grimes 2010 Hollow Earth Publishing" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18692" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5094" RevisionGUID="ade1e9d6-416b-48d9-8880-3b76556102f2" CreationDate="2019-05-01T12:46:55.917" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|odyssey|homer|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18693" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5015" RevisionGUID="8e9141e2-7878-4b25-92ab-53644655309e" CreationDate="2019-05-01T12:50:24.050" UserId="57" Comment="added 13 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="When Hermes arrives on Ogygia, she asks why he is visiting here: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Why have you come to see me, Hermes - honored, and ever welcome - for you do not visit me often?...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Retrieved, paragraph 7][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hermes responds it is of no accord of his own and that Zeus sent him: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...Nevertheless I had to come, for none of us other gods can cross Zeus, nor transgress his orders [his noos]. He says that you have here the most ill-starred of all those who fought nine years before the city of King Priam and sailed home in the tenth year after having sacked it. **On their way home [nostos] they erred against Athena**, who raised both wind and waves against them, so that all his brave companions perished, and he alone was carried here by wind and tide. ...&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Retrieved, paragraph 9][1] *Note: Emphasis in bold is my own.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How did &quot;they&quot; err against Athena? What did they do? What happened?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hom.%20Od.%205&amp;lang=original" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18694" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5015" RevisionGUID="8e9141e2-7878-4b25-92ab-53644655309e" CreationDate="2019-05-01T12:50:24.050" UserId="57" Comment="added 13 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="What did Odysseus and his men do to err Athena?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18695" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5015" RevisionGUID="8e9141e2-7878-4b25-92ab-53644655309e" CreationDate="2019-05-01T12:50:24.050" UserId="57" Comment="added 13 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|greek|homer|odyssey|athena|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18696" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5014" RevisionGUID="051c9b70-a56e-492a-b9b5-fdedfb2d6c2b" CreationDate="2019-05-01T12:50:47.450" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|homer|odyssey|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18697" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="2723" RevisionGUID="109bdb7d-3dc5-450b-9158-b17e72b44bd9" CreationDate="2019-05-01T12:53:11.263" UserId="57" Comment="82" />
  <row Id="18699" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5604" RevisionGUID="0c133e88-0428-4d9c-a517-407c95302272" CreationDate="2019-05-01T13:48:01.060" UserId="57" Text="In *Odyssey 21* Penelope famously proposes an archery contest to her suitors, a test of masculine skill with herself as the prize. The disguised Odysseus wins the contest and then proceeds to reveal himself and execute the suitors with the same bow. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think it is fair to assume that Odysseus was an exceptional archer. Having spent a decade in combat and then another one fighting all sorts of monsters, I wonder if there is an earlier instance in which he puts his archery skills in use. Or if Rhapsodies 21 and 22 are the only times we actually see him shoot a bow and arrow?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or, to put it another way, how prepared would Homer's audience be for the fate of the contest - and of the suitors? Would they recognize that the story comes to an end once Penelope proposes the contest?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18700" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5604" RevisionGUID="0c133e88-0428-4d9c-a517-407c95302272" CreationDate="2019-05-01T13:48:01.060" UserId="57" Text="Has Odysseus ever used a bow prior to the archery contest in the Odyssey?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18701" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5604" RevisionGUID="0c133e88-0428-4d9c-a517-407c95302272" CreationDate="2019-05-01T13:48:01.060" UserId="57" Text="|greek|odyssey|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18702" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5604" RevisionGUID="b6c7464f-b9d0-4039-bc48-b3d3559f2c43" CreationDate="2019-05-01T14:05:14.123" UserId="57" Comment="added 31 characters in body" Text="In *Odyssey 21* Penelope famously proposes an archery contest to her suitors, a test of masculine skill with herself as the prize. The disguised Odysseus wins the contest and then proceeds to reveal himself and execute the suitors with the same bow. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think it is fair to assume that Odysseus was an exceptional archer. Having spent a decade in combat and then another one fighting all sorts of monsters, I wonder if there is an earlier instance in which he puts his archery skills to use. Either in battle or to hunt. Or are Rhapsodies 21 and 22 the only times we actually see him shoot a bow and arrow?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or, to put it another way, how prepared would Homer's audience be for the fate of the contest - and of the suitors? Would they recognize that the story comes to an end once Penelope comes up with the contest?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18703" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5014" RevisionGUID="67062afa-8995-409a-814a-585815d013d5" CreationDate="2019-05-01T14:11:07.137" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 100 characters in body; edited title" Text="In the Odyssey, Hermes takes flight to Ogygia, Calypso's island, at Zeus's command to tell Calypso to let Odysseus go home. When he arrives Calypso recognizes him right away because: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the gods all know each other, no matter how far they live from one another  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Retrieved, paragraph 7][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How true is this? Is there a point in Greek mythology in which a god does not recognize another? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hom.%20Od.%205&amp;lang=original" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18704" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5014" RevisionGUID="67062afa-8995-409a-814a-585815d013d5" CreationDate="2019-05-01T14:11:07.137" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 100 characters in body; edited title" Text="Do gods know all other gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18705" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5605" RevisionGUID="a77f52b7-1c02-408a-b5eb-600721b4729b" CreationDate="2019-05-01T14:34:10.637" UserId="57" Text="In Greek mythology [Atalanta][1] the virgin huntress was abandoned by her father in the wild and was cared for by a bear:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lycurgus had sons, Ancaeus, Epochus, Amphidamas, and Iasus, by Cleophyle or Eurynome. And Amphidamas had a son Melanion and a daughter Antimache, whom Eurystheus married. And Iasus had a daughter Atalanta by Clymene, daughter of Minyas. This Atalanta was exposed by her father, because he desired male children; and a she bear came often and gave her suck, till hunters found her and brought her up among themselves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Apollodorus. Apollodorus, The Library, with an English Translation by Sir James George Frazer, F.B.A., F.R.S. in 2 Volumes. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1921.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Enkidu's story is certainly older, however, I would assert that Enkidu was not abandoned as a child and thus does not fit the feral child motif entirely. In any case, even if Atalanta's story isn't the earliest, it's certainly unique in that it is about a female child and not a male one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atalanta" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18706" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="302" RevisionGUID="a83542b9-6f26-4cc1-b1b8-f784a9fc3e47" CreationDate="2019-05-01T14:36:09.727" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|roman|romulus-and-remus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18707" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5595" RevisionGUID="9edd1542-9e58-4ecf-84b1-0bb1372c2f51" CreationDate="2019-05-01T14:39:09.947" UserId="57" Comment="No need to over-emphasize." Text="I am interested in the theme of **human children** nursed and/or raised out of human society (e.g. Mowgli or Romulus and Remus), whether by animals, gods, flowers, aliens, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Are there any myths in other cultures where such a theme appears previous to Romulus and Remus?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ideally, I would like to know which is the oldest myth where such a theme appears (to the best of our knowledge) but that might be impossible to know for certain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18708" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5595" RevisionGUID="9edd1542-9e58-4ecf-84b1-0bb1372c2f51" CreationDate="2019-05-01T14:39:09.947" UserId="57" Comment="No need to over-emphasize." Text="Stories of children raised out of human society?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18709" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5595" RevisionGUID="9edd1542-9e58-4ecf-84b1-0bb1372c2f51" CreationDate="2019-05-01T14:39:09.947" UserId="57" Comment="No need to over-emphasize." Text="|myth-identification|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18710" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5605" RevisionGUID="118bb5ba-c550-44b0-9d1e-5a4af5ce640b" CreationDate="2019-05-01T14:42:31.280" UserId="57" Comment="added 28 characters in body" Text="In Greek mythology [Atalanta][1] the virgin huntress was abandoned by her father in the wild and was cared for by a bear:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lycurgus had sons, Ancaeus, Epochus, Amphidamas, and Iasus, by Cleophyle or Eurynome. And Amphidamas had a son Melanion and a daughter Antimache, whom Eurystheus married. And Iasus had a daughter Atalanta by Clymene, daughter of Minyas. This Atalanta was exposed by her father, because he desired male children; and a she bear came often and gave her suck, till hunters found her and brought her up among themselves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Apollodorus. Apollodorus, The Library, with an English Translation by Sir James George Frazer, F.B.A., F.R.S. in 2 Volumes. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1921.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Enkidu's story is certainly older, however, I would assert that Enkidu was not abandoned as a child - in fact, was never a child - and thus does not quite fit the feral child motif. In any case, even if Atalanta's story isn't the earliest, it's certainly unique in that it is about a female child and not a male one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atalanta" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18711" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4776" RevisionGUID="72a2fca5-8df3-41e3-8642-15bf58c0fffe" CreationDate="2019-05-01T14:58:23.147" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 15 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Last year, I was handed a worksheet. It was an excerpt of an autobiography if I recall correctly. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One part I remember in particular involved Heracles, that he was given a choice between duty and pleasure.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can anyone recall a myth like this?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18712" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4776" RevisionGUID="72a2fca5-8df3-41e3-8642-15bf58c0fffe" CreationDate="2019-05-01T14:58:23.147" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 15 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Is there a myth were Heracles chooses duty over pleasure?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18713" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="4776" RevisionGUID="72a2fca5-8df3-41e3-8642-15bf58c0fffe" CreationDate="2019-05-01T14:58:23.147" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 15 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|greek|myth-identification|hercules|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18714" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5338" RevisionGUID="4a76ece1-9181-408a-aa3b-a1e0204bed0a" CreationDate="2019-05-01T15:07:51.570" UserId="57" Comment="paragraphs" Text="Actually, the ancient people of northern Europe are all related (for all intents and purposes shall be referred to as Nords); as are those of the south (the pre-migration civilisation/culture known as the Pelasgians in Roman and Greek sources and were their predecessors). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One only need to look at and compare myths, language (particularly sound and core words) and art/material culture. It is technically inaccurate in most cases to  claim a connection/ difference between Celtic and Norse/Germano-northern European myth considering the absence of written records during the time of a fully realised, living breathing Celtic pagan tradition before the mass conversion to Christianity and/or *interpretatio Romana* or the influence of either (this includes Ireland and Wales, from which current mythic texts derive). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Despite this, for the discerning scholar, even the surviving myths, folk tales and legends recorded in works such as the Cath Maige Tuired and the Lebor Gabála Érenn of Irish myth, and the Four Branches of the Mabinogi of the Welsh; all of which were written during the Middle Ages (prior to the Norse invasions) and after the Christian conversion, adapted from a muddled and compromised oral tradition stooped in taboo. Nonetheless, they hold much insightful information. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note, the only (potentially) unaffected Celtic cult to survive for quite some time (some claim to this day, though that is not for me to argue) is that of the Druids, whom it is noted the Danes (Vikings) respected and saw much solidarity. To add to that, it should also be noted that a similar issue details much of 'Germanic', 'Slavic' and 'Uralic' myths and at times, even known gods; due to Christianisation ~ take the Prose Edda as a prime example! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All of this does not deny close contact and back and forth influence through time, as the days of the Nords and Pelasgians stretch far into prehistory, their true myths becoming subject to mutation as they became the latter tribes we are more familiar with: Pelasgians) Greeks, Italics (including Romans, Etruscans etc.), Thracians, Iberians, Anatolians, Illyrians. Nords) Celts, Scandinavians/Norse (N. Germanic), Germans (S. Germanic ~ Anglos, Saxons, Goths etc.), Uralics, Slavs ~ These are just to name those I can remember without inquiry, and is not limited to European peoples, if one observes carefully, the world is full of allusions to the once great &quot;core&quot; cultures of the most distant past (Indo-European is a fallacy, derived from inaccurate reconstruction based on a misunderstanding of *lingua franca* languages and the koine which may develop from them such as Sanskrit, as being purely original and therefore related via common ancestry)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18722" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5607" RevisionGUID="53279012-f52b-41c6-9105-51ae1d7b52cc" CreationDate="2019-05-02T08:10:03.457" UserId="3230" Text="In Limbo Dante encounters a group of philosophers:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When I had raised my eyes a little higher,&#xD;&#xA;I saw the master of the men who know&#xD;&#xA;seated in philosophic family.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There all look up to him, all do him honor:&#xD;&#xA;there I beheld both Socrates and Plato,&#xD;&#xA;closest to him, in front of all the rest;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Democritus, who ascribes the world to chance,&#xD;&#xA;Diogenes, Empedocles, and Zeno,&#xD;&#xA;and Thales, Anaxagoras, Heraclitus;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I saw the good collector of medicinals,&#xD;&#xA;I mean Dioscorides; and I saw Orpheus,&#xD;&#xA;and Tully, Linus, moral Seneca;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and Euclid the geometer, and Ptolemy,&#xD;&#xA;Hippocrates and Galen, Avicenna,&#xD;&#xA;Averroes, of the great Commentary.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Mandelbaum translation.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who is this Diogenes? Is it [Diogenes the Cynic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diogenes) or [Diogenes of Apollonia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diogenes_of_Apollonia)? Someone else?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18723" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5607" RevisionGUID="53279012-f52b-41c6-9105-51ae1d7b52cc" CreationDate="2019-05-02T08:10:03.457" UserId="3230" Text="Who is the Diogenes Dante encounters in Limbo?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18724" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5607" RevisionGUID="53279012-f52b-41c6-9105-51ae1d7b52cc" CreationDate="2019-05-02T08:10:03.457" UserId="3230" Text="|dante|inferno|divine-comedy|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18728" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="5461" RevisionGUID="d273e688-13eb-42cc-8476-ab17d99f3c57" CreationDate="2019-05-02T09:15:12.827" UserId="57" Comment="83" />
  <row Id="18729" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5608" RevisionGUID="63603479-27b6-4976-87d8-14f51a044f72" CreationDate="2019-05-02T10:55:05.490" UserId="6021" Text="According to [Project Britain's folklore calendar][1] buying a broom or washing blankets in May should be avoided:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Never buy a broom in May or wash blankets.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Wash a blanket in May.*  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Wash a dear one away.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is that so? Where does this superstition come from?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://projectbritain.com/year/may.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18730" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5608" RevisionGUID="63603479-27b6-4976-87d8-14f51a044f72" CreationDate="2019-05-02T10:55:05.490" UserId="6021" Text="Why you should never buy a broom or wash blankets in May?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18731" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5608" RevisionGUID="63603479-27b6-4976-87d8-14f51a044f72" CreationDate="2019-05-02T10:55:05.490" UserId="6021" Text="|superstition|european-folklore|british|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18733" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="5503" RevisionGUID="5cb4dabb-63eb-40ad-801f-6053acbd250c" CreationDate="2019-05-02T11:20:24.690" UserId="57" Comment="84" />
  <row Id="18736" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5610" RevisionGUID="aa8b308c-8a80-45a8-9fe3-3e7cda20e080" CreationDate="2019-05-02T15:15:20.340" UserId="5329" Text="So the heroes of the illiad seem to be completely obsessed with honorable fighting with Hector refusing to take sanctuary behind the walls due to that not being honorable (  The Great Courses - (Famous Greeks), Lecture 3: Hector, with Professor J. Rufus Fears )&#xD;&#xA;while it is ultimately the guile and cunning of Odysseus that wins the war as well as an arrow that kills Achilles&#xD;&#xA;How would Greeks of the time contrast the pursuit of honorable actions with the incredible effectiveness of guile?&#xD;&#xA;I understand that them Gods had willed Troy to fall, but then why not simply allow the city to be captured by raw force?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18737" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5610" RevisionGUID="aa8b308c-8a80-45a8-9fe3-3e7cda20e080" CreationDate="2019-05-02T15:15:20.340" UserId="5329" Text="Honor, cunning and realism of underhandedness in the illiad" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18738" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5610" RevisionGUID="aa8b308c-8a80-45a8-9fe3-3e7cda20e080" CreationDate="2019-05-02T15:15:20.340" UserId="5329" Text="|homer|iliad|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18739" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5610" RevisionGUID="9dbf0491-43af-4ca1-9675-243d81d689a6" CreationDate="2019-05-02T15:21:43.563" UserId="57" Comment="added 8 characters in body; edited title" Text="The heroes of the Illiad seem to be completely obsessed with honourable fighting, with Hector refusing to take sanctuary behind the walls due to that not being honourable (The Great Courses - Famous Greeks, Lecture 3: Hector, with Professor J. Rufus Fears). However, ultimately it is the guile and cunning of Odysseus that wins the war, as well as an arrow that kills Achilles. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How would the Greeks of the time contrast the pursuit of honourable actions with the incredible effectiveness of guile? I understand that their gods had willed Troy to fall, but then why not simply allow the city to be captured by raw force?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18740" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5610" RevisionGUID="9dbf0491-43af-4ca1-9675-243d81d689a6" CreationDate="2019-05-02T15:21:43.563" UserId="57" Comment="added 8 characters in body; edited title" Text="Honor, cunning and realism of underhandedness in the Iliad" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18742" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5583" RevisionGUID="039d5c47-f78b-428f-a599-22429636dc6e" CreationDate="2019-05-02T17:40:05.927" UserId="5971" Comment="added 656 characters in body" Text="A team of friends/colleagues from Honduras mentioned that they will name their project after a local legend, myth, or hero in Honduras / Central America. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They told me the name several times, but only verbally so I don't know how to spell it. I've spent a surprisingly long time searching for it online without being able to find anything.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I believe the phonetic spelling would be something like &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Sumati&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; or &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Sumadi&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found this online briefly once during a meeting, but can't find it again. I must be misspelling it. I'm starting to wonder if there's an 'r' in there...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**UPDATE**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Others should definitely add their answers with more info than what I found. It turned out that the name is &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sumadi&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am still seeking contextual info about this name / legend. I will update this self-answer once I have more information. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So far, I've found that this is certainly a *unique* name, because:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Out of 5,933,561 records in the U.S. Social Security Administration&#xD;&#xA;&gt; public data, the first name Sumadi was not present. It is possible the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; name you are searching has less than five occurrences per year.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An Internet search like &quot;Sumadi Honduras&quot; returns surprisingly little." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18743" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5611" RevisionGUID="2863bfa2-5279-42b8-addf-fe7d8f42c2e1" CreationDate="2019-05-02T19:07:14.987" UserId="5229" Text="Greek authors in the centuries after Homer seem to have a strong preference for honorable fighting over guile.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This subject is touched on in a few works that deal with the conflict between Ajax and Odysseus over who would receive Achilles' armor. Ajax was the warrior who did the actual fighting, and yet Odysseus manages to convince the judges to give him the armor. Odysseus' dishonesty in general, and his having won the armor, are often described as distasteful. This scene is the premise of Sophocles' tragedy [*Ajax*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_(play)). Sophocles' chorus have more sympathy for Ajax than for Odysseus ([134-171](http://data.perseus.org/citations/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0011.tlg003.perseus-eng1:134-171)) even though Athena, the goddess of wisdom, prefers Odysseus and helps him win the armor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is Pindar ([Nemean 8](http://data.perseus.org/citations/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0033.tlg003.perseus-eng1:8)), who prays never to be like deceitful Odysseus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;A man who was not gifted in speech, but brave in his heart, is held down by oblivion under deadly strife; and the greatest prize of honor has been offered to the shifty lie. For in a secret vote the Danaans favored Odysseus; and Aias, robbed of the golden armor, wrestled with death. Truly, they did not tear equal wounds in the warm flesh of the enemy when they were driven back under the man-protecting spear, at one time around the newly-slain corpse of Achilles, and on destructive days spent on other toils. It seems that hateful Misrepresentation existed even long ago: a fellow traveler of flattering tales, deceitful-minded, a malignant disgrace. She does violence to the illustrious, and upholds the rotten glory of the obscure. May I never have such a nature, father Zeus; may I stick to the simple paths of life, so that when I die I will not fasten a bad name to my children. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the few fragments of Antisthenes that has survived are speeches for Ajax and Odysseus, in which this exact contrast is dealt with. [This thesis](https://ses.library.usyd.edu.au/bitstream/2123/7963/1/kennedy_honsthesis_2011.pdf) (to which I owe the references to Pindar and Plato) by William John Kennedy translates the fragments. The thesis argues that Antisthenes' portrayal of Ajax is sympathetic. But in any case, the fragments portray each side's argument for why he deserves the armor. Ajax's claim is justice; he carried the body and he was the brave warrior. He accuses Odysseus of being a coward. Odysseus' claim is superior wisdom, the person who won the war against the Trojans with his plans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Plato's [Hippias Minor](http://data.perseus.org/texts/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0059.tlg026.perseus-eng1) there is an interesting subversion of the same theme with regard to Achilles and Odysseus. Hippias claims that Achilles is simple and true, while Odysseus is cunning and false. Socrates then proves to him that really Achilles is the cunning one and is able to fool even Odysseus. However, at the end of the dialogue (376b) it is Odysseus' cunning that Socrates concludes is good, despite himself:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**Socrates**  &#xD;&#xA;Then he who voluntarily errs and does disgraceful and unjust acts, Hippias, if there be such a man, would be no other than the good man.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**Hippias**  &#xD;&#xA;I cannot agree with you, Socrates, in that.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**Socrates**  &#xD;&#xA;Nor I with myself, Hippias.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since this is a Socratic dialogue, this conclusion is of course exactly the opposite of what a normal person would think. But it is noteworthy that they use the character of Odysseus, who lies on purpose (vs. Achilles who lies by accident), in order to make this point. It seems that both Socrates and Hippias find purposeful deceit, the kind demonstrated by Odysseus, to be distasteful." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18745" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3357" RevisionGUID="70562a5c-91c2-48d2-82bc-eae0e5169027" CreationDate="2019-05-03T10:49:02.467" UserId="57" Comment="Since there has been no activity since the Thor answer - and that answer was accepted - I'm narrowing down the question to only be about Thor." Text="I'm currently playing a role-playing game as a cleric that worships a god of storms and I'm researching what kinds of offerings that god would likely accept. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What examples are there of the kinds of offerings that were made to Thor?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18746" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3357" RevisionGUID="70562a5c-91c2-48d2-82bc-eae0e5169027" CreationDate="2019-05-03T10:49:02.467" UserId="57" Comment="Since there has been no activity since the Thor answer - and that answer was accepted - I'm narrowing down the question to only be about Thor." Text="What kind of offerings did worshipers make to Thor?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18747" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3357" RevisionGUID="70562a5c-91c2-48d2-82bc-eae0e5169027" CreationDate="2019-05-03T10:49:02.467" UserId="57" Comment="Since there has been no activity since the Thor answer - and that answer was accepted - I'm narrowing down the question to only be about Thor." Text="|norse|thor|sacrifice|rituals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18748" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="5461" RevisionGUID="2c93ece9-42e4-4549-82f6-1cfda4797ac9" CreationDate="2019-05-03T11:47:14.793" UserId="57" Comment="83" />
  <row Id="18749" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5612" RevisionGUID="171d1d5e-9b3c-4282-9e55-6febdf656ce3" CreationDate="2019-05-03T15:25:24.823" UserId="57" Text="Perses was a son of Helios and the Oceanid Perse. He is the least well-known of his siblings, Aeëtes (the king of Colchis), Pasiphaë (the wife of king Minos of Crete) and Circe (the famed sorceress). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia has an article on Perses, but it offers limited information and does not cite any sources: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Greek mythology, Perses was the brother of Aeëtes, Circe and Pasiphaë (which makes him a son of Helios, presumably by Perse the Oceanid). He usurped the throne of Colchis from his brother, but was subsequently slain by Medea, his paternal niece. He is not to be confused with the Titan known as Perses, who is known for fathering Hecate.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Wikipedia contributors. (2018, December 19). Perses of Colchis. In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 15:24, May 3, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Perses_of_Colchis&amp;oldid=874445065&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Madeline Miller in her celebrated novel [*Circe*][1] which - understandably - spends quite some time discussing Circe's family and their interactions with each other presents a different story: Perses is a sorcerer, continuing the family tradition, and is living in Persia. He occasionally visits Aeëtes in Colchis but there's no mention of him usurping the throne or getting killed by Medea.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the source of the information presented on Wikipedia? Is Madeline Miller's version based on an ancient story? What else do we know of Perses?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.amazon.com/CIRCE-New-York-Times-bestseller/dp/0316556343&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18750" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5612" RevisionGUID="171d1d5e-9b3c-4282-9e55-6febdf656ce3" CreationDate="2019-05-03T15:25:24.823" UserId="57" Text="What do we know of Perses, son of Helios and brother to Circe?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18751" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5612" RevisionGUID="171d1d5e-9b3c-4282-9e55-6febdf656ce3" CreationDate="2019-05-03T15:25:24.823" UserId="57" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18752" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5613" RevisionGUID="f371fcb4-9d02-4ec3-ae99-5c530cc0e3da" CreationDate="2019-05-03T15:37:37.123" UserDisplayName="user4855" Text="The legend behind the severed head of Chhinnamasta is described in the [Pranatoshini Tantra][1] text. The story goes as follows: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Goddess Parvati was bathing in [Mandikini river][2] where she gets sexually excited and as a result, her complexion turns dark. Her two attendants, Dakini and Varnini at the exact same time, asks her for food. The Goddess tries to convince them to wait till they reach home but due to the constant begging of the two attendants, She severes her head using her own nails and feeds her attendants her blood. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The severed head of the Goddess also has two symbolical meanings:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1) Sacrifice of Ego: Since the head is severed by Her own Will, it symbolises the sacrifice of Her own ego&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2) Turiya: Turiya is a state where an individual's mind is dissolved. Since Her head is severed, it signifies a state of mindlessness.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.exoticindiaart.com/m/book/details/prana-toshini-tantra-old-book-NZF366/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandakini_River" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18754" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5613" RevisionGUID="705180ff-6775-40ec-811d-97e8774afbda" CreationDate="2019-05-03T17:41:19.727" UserDisplayName="user4855" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="The legend behind the severed head of Chhinnamasta is described in the [Pranatoshini Tantra][1] text. The story goes as follows: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Goddess Parvati was bathing in [Mandikini river][2] where she gets sexually excited and as a result, her complexion turns dark. Her two attendants, Dakini and Varnini at the exact same time, asks her for food. The Goddess tries to convince them to wait till they reach home but due to the constant requests of the two attendants, She severes her head using her own nails and feeds her attendants her blood. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The severed head of the Goddess also has two symbolical meanings:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1) Sacrifice of Ego: Since the head is severed by Her own Will, it symbolises the sacrifice of Her own ego&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2) Turiya: Turiya is a state where an individual's mind is dissolved. Since Her head is severed, it signifies a state of mindlessness.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.exoticindiaart.com/m/book/details/prana-toshini-tantra-old-book-NZF366/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandakini_River" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18755" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5613" RevisionGUID="fd17af52-67d7-460d-ba1a-76e014b13ca1" CreationDate="2019-05-03T20:15:00.657" UserDisplayName="user4855" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="The legend behind the severed head of Chhinnamasta is described in the [Pranatoshini Tantra][1] text. The story goes as follows: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Goddess Parvati was bathing in [Mandikini river][2] where she gets sexually excited and as a result, her complexion turns dark. Her two attendants, Dakini and Varnini at the exact same time, asks her for food. The Goddess tries to convince them to wait till they reach home but due to the constant requests of the two attendants, She severes her head using her own nails and feeds her attendants her blood. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The severed head of the Goddess also has two symbolical meanings:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1) Sacrifice of Ego: Since the head is severed by Her own Will, it symbolises the sacrifice of one's ego.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2) Turiya: Turiya is a state where an individual's mind is dissolved. Since Her head is severed, it signifies a state of mindlessness.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.exoticindiaart.com/m/book/details/prana-toshini-tantra-old-book-NZF366/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandakini_River" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18757" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5505" RevisionGUID="daad50bb-9539-42e9-b140-92edd63fc421" CreationDate="2019-05-04T13:25:58.983" UserId="3230" Comment="proper question in title" Text="What mythological figures have died for love?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18758" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5614" RevisionGUID="847ea648-8338-4585-a278-d8df60bf3587" CreationDate="2019-05-04T13:56:49.177" UserId="3230" Text="In [The Aeneid][1] the legendary Carthaginian Queen [Dido][2] kills herself in despair, after Aeneas, her lover, abandons her. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneid&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dido" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18760" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5607" RevisionGUID="b43a2c77-9931-4dca-a4ec-70c51cddbf1e" CreationDate="2019-05-04T14:08:12.977" UserId="3230" Comment="added 182 characters in body; edited title" Text="In Limbo Dante encounters a group of philosophers:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When I had raised my eyes a little higher,&#xD;&#xA;I saw the master of the men who know&#xD;&#xA;seated in philosophic family.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There all look up to him, all do him honor:&#xD;&#xA;there I beheld both Socrates and Plato,&#xD;&#xA;closest to him, in front of all the rest;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Democritus, who ascribes the world to chance,&#xD;&#xA;Diogenes, Empedocles, and Zeno,&#xD;&#xA;and Thales, Anaxagoras, Heraclitus;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I saw the good collector of medicinals,&#xD;&#xA;I mean Dioscorides; and I saw Orpheus,&#xD;&#xA;and Tully, Linus, moral Seneca;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and Euclid the geometer, and Ptolemy,&#xD;&#xA;Hippocrates and Galen, Avicenna,&#xD;&#xA;Averroes, of the great Commentary.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Mandelbaum translation.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is this Diogenes [Diogenes the Cynic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diogenes) (the one that lived in a jar) or [Diogenes of Apollonia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diogenes_of_Apollonia)? And is Zeno the pre-Socratic philosopher [Zeno of Elea](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno_of_Elea) or the Stoic [Zeno of Citium](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno_of_Citium)?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18761" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5607" RevisionGUID="b43a2c77-9931-4dca-a4ec-70c51cddbf1e" CreationDate="2019-05-04T14:08:12.977" UserId="3230" Comment="added 182 characters in body; edited title" Text="Who are the Diogenes and Zeno Dante encounters in Limbo?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18762" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5613" RevisionGUID="996ee82d-d6ec-4fae-943e-b08c4a5a624e" CreationDate="2019-05-04T15:32:22.830" UserDisplayName="user4855" Comment="added 10 characters in body" Text="The legend behind the severed head of Chhinnamasta is described in the [Pranatoshini Tantra][1] text. The story goes as follows: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Goddess Parvati was bathing in [Mandikini river][2] where she gets sexually excited and as a result, her complexion turns dark. Her two attendants, Dakini and Varnini at the exact same time, asks her for food. The Goddess tries to convince them to wait till they reach home but due to the constant requests of the two attendants, She severes her head using her own nails and feeds her attendants her blood. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The severed head of Goddess Chhinnamasta, also has two symbolical meanings:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1) Sacrifice of Ego: Since the head is severed by Her own Will, it symbolises the sacrifice of one's ego.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2) Turiya: Turiya is a state where an individual's mind is dissolved. Since Her head is severed, it signifies a state of mindlessness.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.exoticindiaart.com/m/book/details/prana-toshini-tantra-old-book-NZF366/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandakini_River" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18763" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5613" RevisionGUID="0b9758f9-efa1-4f70-b2fb-eaf54db9387f" CreationDate="2019-05-04T16:29:40.150" UserId="1317" Comment="Minor grammar thing" Text="The legend behind the severed head of Chhinnamasta is described in the [Pranatoshini Tantra][1] text. The story goes as follows: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Goddess Parvati was bathing in [Mandikini river][2] where she gets sexually excited and as a result, her complexion turns dark. Her two attendants, Dakini and Varnini, ask her for food at the exact same time. The Goddess tries to convince them to wait till they reach home, but due to the constant requests of the two attendants, She severs her head using her own nails and feeds her attendants her blood. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The severed head of Goddess Chhinnamasta, also has two symbolical meanings:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1) Sacrifice of Ego: Since the head is severed by Her own Will, it symbolises the sacrifice of one's ego.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2) Turiya: Turiya is a state where an individual's mind is dissolved. Since Her head is severed, it signifies a state of mindlessness.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.exoticindiaart.com/m/book/details/prana-toshini-tantra-old-book-NZF366/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandakini_River" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18764" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5613" RevisionGUID="0b9758f9-efa1-4f70-b2fb-eaf54db9387f" CreationDate="2019-05-04T16:29:40.150" Comment="Proposed by 1317 approved by 4855 edit id of 1734" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18765" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1944" RevisionGUID="5d7d6409-f222-453e-980c-9fb1d8158f25" CreationDate="2019-05-04T18:00:54.557" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="18767" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="4761" RevisionGUID="44b33c6e-b323-4d23-be9c-abaf2b599d39" CreationDate="2019-05-04T20:19:33.607" UserId="57" Comment="66" />
  <row Id="18770" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2901" RevisionGUID="9048e71c-d1d9-4a9a-a961-cc108191bece" CreationDate="2019-05-04T23:01:25.243" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="18771" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5616" RevisionGUID="bee8efb1-98de-4ccd-90e1-654e772ce1cd" CreationDate="2019-05-05T12:12:32.913" UserId="57" Text="In *Odyssey 14* [Eumaeus][1] the swineherd is the first person that meets Odysseus upon his return to Ithaca. Although he doesn't recognize his master, he offers him shelter and treats him to a feast:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then the goodly swineherd called to his comrades saying: “Bring forth the best of the boars, that I may slaughter him for the stranger who comes from afar, and we too shall have some profit therefrom, who have long borne toil and suffering for the sake of the white-tusked swine, while others devour our labour without atonement.” So saying, he split wood with the pitiless bronze, and the others brought in a fatted boar of five years old, and set him by the hearth. Nor did the swineherd forget the immortals, for he had an understanding heart, but as a first offering he cast into the fire bristles from the head of the white-tusked boar, and made prayer to all the gods that wise Odysseus might return to his own house. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then he raised himself up, and smote the boar with a billet of oak, which he had left when splitting the wood, and the boar's life left him. And the others cut the boar's throat, and signed him, and quickly cut him up, and the swineherd took as first offerings bits of raw flesh from all the limbs, and laid them in the rich fat. These he cast into the fire, when he had sprinkled them with barley meal, but the rest they cut up and spitted, and roasted it carefully, and drew it all off the spits, and cast it in a heap on platters. Then the swineherd stood up to carve, for well did his heart know what was fair, and he cut up the mess and divided it into seven portions. One with a prayer he set aside for the nymphs and for Hermes, son of Maia, and the rest he distributed to each. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Odysseus he honored with the long chine of the white-tusked boar, and made glad the heart of his master; and Odysseus of many wiles spoke to him, and said: “Eumaeus, mayest thou be as dear to father Zeus as thou art to me, since thou honourest me with a good portion, albeit I am in such plight.” To him then, swineherd Eumaeus, didst thou make answer, and say: “Eat, unhappy stranger, and have joy of such fare as is here. It is the god that will give one thing and withhold another, even as seems good to his heart; for he can do all things.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Homer. The Odyssey with an English Translation by A.T. Murray, PH.D. in two volumes. Cambridge, MA., Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann, Ltd. 1919.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why does Eumaeus set aside a portion for the nymphs and for Hermes? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eumaeus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18772" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5616" RevisionGUID="bee8efb1-98de-4ccd-90e1-654e772ce1cd" CreationDate="2019-05-05T12:12:32.913" UserId="57" Text="Why does Eumaeus singles out the nymphs and Hermes in his offerings?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18773" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5616" RevisionGUID="bee8efb1-98de-4ccd-90e1-654e772ce1cd" CreationDate="2019-05-05T12:12:32.913" UserId="57" Text="|greek|homer|odyssey|rituals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18774" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5617" RevisionGUID="822a6d69-d547-4aac-b7ec-6e1a283607aa" CreationDate="2019-05-05T13:11:37.560" UserId="57" Text="The story of Perses deposing Aeëtes and getting killed by Medea can be found in *Apollodorus 1.9.28*: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Medea came to Athens, and being there married to Aegeus bore him a son Medus. Afterwards, however, plotting against Theseus, she was driven a fugitive from Athens with her son. But he conquered many barbarians and called the whole country under him Media, and marching against the Indians he met his death. And Medea came unknown to Colchis, and finding that Aeetes had been deposed by his brother Perses, she killed Perses and restored the kingdom to her father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Apollodorus. Apollodorus, The Library, with an English Translation by Sir James George Frazer, F.B.A., F.R.S. in 2 Volumes. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1921. Includes Frazer's notes.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyginus gives a slightly different account of his death in *Fabulae 27*. Here it is Medea's son Medus that kills Perses: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; An oracle told Perses, son of Sol, Aeetes' brother, that he should beware of death from Aeetes' descendants. Medus, following his mother, was brought to him by a storm, and guards seized him and brought him to King Perses. When Medus, son of Aegeus and Medea, saw that he had come into the power of his enemy, he falsely asserted he was Hippotes, son of Creon. The king carefully investigated, and ordered him cast into prison. There sterility and scarcity of crops are said to have occurred. When Medea had come there in her chariot with the yoked dragons, she falsely claimed before the king to be a priestess of Diana. She said she could make atonement for the sterility, and when she heard from the king that Hippotes, son of Creon, was held in custody, thinking he had come to avenge the injury to his father ... there, unknowingly, she betrayed her son. For she persuaded the king that he was not Hippotes, but Medus, son of Aegeus, sent by his father to dispatch the king, and begged that he be handed over to her to kill, convinced that he was Hippotes. And so when Medus was brought out to pay for his deceit by death, when she saw that things were otherwise than she had thought, she said she wished to talk with him, and gave him a sword, and bade him avenge the wrongs of his grandfather. Medus, at this news, killed Perses, and gained his grandfather's kingdom; from his name he called the country Media.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Diodorus Siculus also has Medus killing Perses instead of Medea, in *Library 4.56.1*: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvelous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out; and some indeed, in their desire to win favour with the Athenians, say that she took that Medus who she bore to Aegeus and got off safe to Colchis; and at that time Aeëtes, who had been forcibly driven from the throne by his brother Perses, and regained his kingdom, Medus, Medea’s son, having slain Perses; and that afterwards Medus, securing the command of an army, advanced over a large part of Asia which lies above the Pontus and secured possession of Media, which has been named after this Medus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; Diodorus Siculus. Diodorus of Sicily in Twelve Volumes with an English Translation by C. H. Oldfather. Vol. 4-8. Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press; London: William Heinemann, Ltd. 1989.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I couldn't find a source directly connecting Perses to Persia. I assume Madeline Miller is conflating Perses of Colchis with [Perses, son of Perseus][1]. The latter was identified as the ancestor of the Persians by several writers (e.g Herodotus and Plato), having fathered the [Perseides][2] with the Oceanid Perse. Which of course - if we assume two different Perses - would make Perses of Colchis a half-brother to first generation Persians.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hat tip to [b a][3] for [noticing][4] that [German Wikipedia identified its sources][5].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perses_(son_of_Perseus)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseides&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/users/5229/b-a&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/5612/what-do-we-know-of-perses-son-of-helios-and-brother-to-circe#comment11551_5612&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Perses_(Sohn_des_Helios)&amp;oldid=162978363" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18775" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5617" RevisionGUID="6e0bff0e-270a-441c-b837-5dbc8970287c" CreationDate="2019-05-05T20:38:43.237" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 143 characters in body" Text="The story of Perses deposing Aeëtes and getting killed by Medea can be found in *Apollodorus 1.9.28*: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Medea came to Athens, and being there married to Aegeus bore him a son Medus. Afterwards, however, plotting against Theseus, she was driven a fugitive from Athens with her son. But he conquered many barbarians and called the whole country under him Media, and marching against the Indians he met his death. And Medea came unknown to Colchis, and finding that Aeetes had been deposed by his brother Perses, she killed Perses and restored the kingdom to her father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Apollodorus. Apollodorus, The Library, with an English Translation by Sir James George Frazer, F.B.A., F.R.S. in 2 Volumes. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1921. Includes Frazer's notes.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyginus gives a slightly different account of his death in *Fabulae 27*. Here it is Medea's son Medus that kills Perses: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; An oracle told Perses, son of Sol, Aeetes' brother, that he should beware of death from Aeetes' descendants. Medus, following his mother, was brought to him by a storm, and guards seized him and brought him to King Perses. When Medus, son of Aegeus and Medea, saw that he had come into the power of his enemy, he falsely asserted he was Hippotes, son of Creon. The king carefully investigated, and ordered him cast into prison. There sterility and scarcity of crops are said to have occurred. When Medea had come there in her chariot with the yoked dragons, she falsely claimed before the king to be a priestess of Diana. She said she could make atonement for the sterility, and when she heard from the king that Hippotes, son of Creon, was held in custody, thinking he had come to avenge the injury to his father ... there, unknowingly, she betrayed her son. For she persuaded the king that he was not Hippotes, but Medus, son of Aegeus, sent by his father to dispatch the king, and begged that he be handed over to her to kill, convinced that he was Hippotes. And so when Medus was brought out to pay for his deceit by death, when she saw that things were otherwise than she had thought, she said she wished to talk with him, and gave him a sword, and bade him avenge the wrongs of his grandfather. Medus, at this news, killed Perses, and gained his grandfather's kingdom; from his name he called the country Media.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Diodorus Siculus also has Medus killing Perses instead of Medea, in *Library 4.56.1*: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvelous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out; and some indeed, in their desire to win favour with the Athenians, say that she took that Medus who she bore to Aegeus and got off safe to Colchis; and at that time Aeëtes, who had been forcibly driven from the throne by his brother Perses, and regained his kingdom, Medus, Medea’s son, having slain Perses; and that afterwards Medus, securing the command of an army, advanced over a large part of Asia which lies above the Pontus and secured possession of Media, which has been named after this Medus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; Diodorus Siculus. Diodorus of Sicily in Twelve Volumes with an English Translation by C. H. Oldfather. Vol. 4-8. Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press; London: William Heinemann, Ltd. 1989.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I couldn't find a source directly connecting Perses to Persia. I assume Madeline Miller is conflating Perses of Colchis with [Perses, son of Perseus][1]. The latter was identified as the ancestor of the Persians by several writers (e.g Herodotus and Plato), having fathered the [Perseides][2] with the Oceanid Perse. Which of course - if we assume two different Perses - would make Perses of Colchis a half-brother to first generation Persians.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hat tip to [b a][3] for noticing that [German Wikipedia identified its sources][5].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perses_(son_of_Perseus)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseides&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/users/5229/b-a&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Perses_(Sohn_des_Helios)&amp;oldid=162978363" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18776" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5617" RevisionGUID="83be19e6-8322-42f0-9191-9091ec4d0e08" CreationDate="2019-05-06T11:21:30.880" UserId="57" Comment="added 800 characters in body" Text="The story of Perses deposing Aeëtes and getting killed by Medea can be found in *Apollodorus 1.9.28*: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Medea came to Athens, and being there married to Aegeus bore him a son Medus. Afterwards, however, plotting against Theseus, she was driven a fugitive from Athens with her son. But he conquered many barbarians and called the whole country under him Media, and marching against the Indians he met his death. And Medea came unknown to Colchis, and finding that Aeetes had been deposed by his brother Perses, she killed Perses and restored the kingdom to her father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Apollodorus. Apollodorus, The Library, with an English Translation by Sir James George Frazer, F.B.A., F.R.S. in 2 Volumes. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1921. Includes Frazer's notes.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyginus gives a slightly different account of his death in *Fabulae 27*. Here it is Medea's son Medus that kills Perses: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; An oracle told Perses, son of Sol, Aeetes' brother, that he should beware of death from Aeetes' descendants. Medus, following his mother, was brought to him by a storm, and guards seized him and brought him to King Perses. When Medus, son of Aegeus and Medea, saw that he had come into the power of his enemy, he falsely asserted he was Hippotes, son of Creon. The king carefully investigated, and ordered him cast into prison. There sterility and scarcity of crops are said to have occurred. When Medea had come there in her chariot with the yoked dragons, she falsely claimed before the king to be a priestess of Diana. She said she could make atonement for the sterility, and when she heard from the king that Hippotes, son of Creon, was held in custody, thinking he had come to avenge the injury to his father ... there, unknowingly, she betrayed her son. For she persuaded the king that he was not Hippotes, but Medus, son of Aegeus, sent by his father to dispatch the king, and begged that he be handed over to her to kill, convinced that he was Hippotes. And so when Medus was brought out to pay for his deceit by death, when she saw that things were otherwise than she had thought, she said she wished to talk with him, and gave him a sword, and bade him avenge the wrongs of his grandfather. Medus, at this news, killed Perses, and gained his grandfather's kingdom; from his name he called the country Media.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Library* Diodorus Siculus informs us that Perses was king of the Tauric Chersonese and father to [Hecate][1]. He also has him killed by Medus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4\.45\.1\. Since it is the task of history to inquire into the reasons for this slaying of strangers, we must discuss these reasons briefly, especially since the digression on this subject will be appropriate in connection with the deeds of the Argonauts. We are told, that is, that Helius had two sons, Aeëtes and Perses, Aeëtes being king of Colchis and the other king of the Tauric Chersonese, and that both of them were exceedingly cruel.&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4\.45\.2\. And Perses had a daughter Hecatê, who surpassed her father in boldness and lawlessness; she was also fond of hunting, and with she had no luck she would turn her arrows upon human beings instead of the beasts&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4\.56\.1\. Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvelous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out; and some indeed, in their desire to win favour with the Athenians, say that she took that Medus who she bore to Aegeus and got off safe to Colchis; and at that time Aeëtes, who had been forcibly driven from the throne by his brother Perses, and regained his kingdom, Medus, Medea’s son, having slain Perses; and that afterwards Medus, securing the command of an army, advanced over a large part of Asia which lies above the Pontus and secured possession of Media, which has been named after this Medus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; Diodorus Siculus. Diodorus of Sicily in Twelve Volumes with an English Translation by C. H. Oldfather. Vol. 4-8. Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press; London: William Heinemann, Ltd. 1989.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I couldn't find a source directly connecting Perses to Persia. I assume Madeline Miller is conflating Perses of Colchis with [Perses, son of Perseus][2]. The latter was identified as the ancestor of the Persians by several writers (e.g Herodotus and Plato), having fathered the [Perseides][3] with the Oceanid Perse. Which of course - if we assume two different Perses - would make Perses of Colchis a half-brother to first generation Persians.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hat tip to [b a][4] for noticing that [German Wikipedia identified its sources][5].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecate&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perses_(son_of_Perseus)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseides&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/users/5229/b-a&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Perses_(Sohn_des_Helios)&amp;oldid=162978363" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18777" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5617" RevisionGUID="932f322d-eed7-4a73-94df-511c03b6e116" CreationDate="2019-05-06T11:28:32.187" UserId="57" Comment="added 800 characters in body" Text="The story of Perses deposing Aeëtes and getting killed by Medea can be found in *Apollodorus 1.9.28*: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Medea came to Athens, and being there married to Aegeus bore him a son Medus. Afterwards, however, plotting against Theseus, she was driven a fugitive from Athens with her son. But he conquered many barbarians and called the whole country under him Media, and marching against the Indians he met his death. And Medea came unknown to Colchis, and finding that Aeetes had been deposed by his brother Perses, she killed Perses and restored the kingdom to her father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Apollodorus. Apollodorus, The Library, with an English Translation by Sir James George Frazer, F.B.A., F.R.S. in 2 Volumes. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1921. Includes Frazer's notes.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyginus gives a slightly different account of his death in *Fabulae 27*. Here it is Medea's son Medus that kills Perses: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; An oracle told Perses, son of Sol, Aeetes' brother, that he should beware of death from Aeetes' descendants. Medus, following his mother, was brought to him by a storm, and guards seized him and brought him to King Perses. When Medus, son of Aegeus and Medea, saw that he had come into the power of his enemy, he falsely asserted he was Hippotes, son of Creon. The king carefully investigated, and ordered him cast into prison. There sterility and scarcity of crops are said to have occurred. When Medea had come there in her chariot with the yoked dragons, she falsely claimed before the king to be a priestess of Diana. She said she could make atonement for the sterility, and when she heard from the king that Hippotes, son of Creon, was held in custody, thinking he had come to avenge the injury to his father ... there, unknowingly, she betrayed her son. For she persuaded the king that he was not Hippotes, but Medus, son of Aegeus, sent by his father to dispatch the king, and begged that he be handed over to her to kill, convinced that he was Hippotes. And so when Medus was brought out to pay for his deceit by death, when she saw that things were otherwise than she had thought, she said she wished to talk with him, and gave him a sword, and bade him avenge the wrongs of his grandfather. Medus, at this news, killed Perses, and gained his grandfather's kingdom; from his name he called the country Media.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Library* Diodorus Siculus informs us that Perses was king of the Tauric Chersonese and that he fathered [Hecate's][1], conflating him with the [Titan Perses, son of Crius][2]. Diodorus also has Medus killing Perses instead of Medea:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4\.45\.1\. Since it is the task of history to inquire into the reasons for this slaying of strangers, we must discuss these reasons briefly, especially since the digression on this subject will be appropriate in connection with the deeds of the Argonauts. We are told, that is, that Helius had two sons, Aeëtes and Perses, Aeëtes being king of Colchis and the other king of the Tauric Chersonese, and that both of them were exceedingly cruel.&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4\.45\.2\. And Perses had a daughter Hecatê, who surpassed her father in boldness and lawlessness; she was also fond of hunting, and with she had no luck she would turn her arrows upon human beings instead of the beasts&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4\.56\.1\. Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvelous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out; and some indeed, in their desire to win favour with the Athenians, say that she took that Medus who she bore to Aegeus and got off safe to Colchis; and at that time Aeëtes, who had been forcibly driven from the throne by his brother Perses, and regained his kingdom, Medus, Medea’s son, having slain Perses; and that afterwards Medus, securing the command of an army, advanced over a large part of Asia which lies above the Pontus and secured possession of Media, which has been named after this Medus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; Diodorus Siculus. Diodorus of Sicily in Twelve Volumes with an English Translation by C. H. Oldfather. Vol. 4-8. Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press; London: William Heinemann, Ltd. 1989.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I couldn't find a source directly connecting Perses to Persia. I assume Madeline Miller is conflating Perses of Colchis with [Perses, son of Perseus][3]. The latter was identified as the ancestor of the Persians by several writers (e.g Herodotus and Plato), having fathered the [Perseides][4] with the Oceanid Perse. Which of course - if we assume two different Perses - would make Perses of Colchis a half-brother to first generation Persians.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hat tip to [b a][5] for noticing that [German Wikipedia identified its sources][6].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecate&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Perses_(Titan)&amp;oldid=881046717&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perses_(son_of_Perseus)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseides&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/users/5229/b-a&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Perses_(Sohn_des_Helios)&amp;oldid=162978363" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18778" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5524" RevisionGUID="48faf85e-e67d-451b-83c4-c0c358ce001d" CreationDate="2019-05-07T00:47:25.107" UserDisplayName="user5459" Comment="added 6 characters in body" Text="I'm talking about both modern and ancient religions that we know of.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Christianity -&gt; Heaven, Hell&#xD;&#xA; - Greco Roman -&gt; Hades&#xD;&#xA; - Egyptian -&gt; Anubis, Osiris&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;among many others. Are there any exceptions to this statement?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18779" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5618" RevisionGUID="14b6d8f6-6c36-4d88-9217-c72331551d7d" CreationDate="2019-05-07T01:01:07.873" UserId="6032" Text="This is not at all true. There is no such person in Greek mythology, and unless the person claiming it is can give a source for the assertion, I would dismiss it as made up." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18780" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5614" RevisionGUID="ee8044dd-2087-429f-9854-01bca623446f" CreationDate="2019-05-07T11:54:15.787" UserId="57" Comment="Added the other answers to this, to convert it to a community wiki answer - for details see: https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/11740/what-are-community-wiki-posts" Text="## Queen Dido&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [The Aeneid](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneid) the legendary Carthaginian Queen [Dido](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dido) kills herself in despair, after Aeneas, her lover, abandons her. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Pyramus and Thisbe&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Metamorphoses IV. 55-166 you will find the story of Pyramus and Thisbe, an early example of star-crossed lovers. A brief summary of the plot, from Wikipedia: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Ovid's Metamorphoses, Pyramus and Thisbe are two lovers in the city of Babylon who occupy connected houses/walls, forbidden by their parents to be wed, because of their parents' rivalry. Through a crack in one of the walls, they whisper their love for each other. They arrange to meet near Ninus' tomb under a mulberry tree and state their feelings for each other. Thisbe arrives first, but upon seeing a lioness with a mouth bloody from a recent kill, she flees, leaving behind her veil. When Pyramus arrives he is horrified at the sight of Thisbe's veil in which the lioness had torn and left traces of blood behind, as well as its tracks. Assuming that a wild beast has killed her, Pyramus kills himself, falling on his sword, a typical Babylonian way to commit suicide, and in turn splashing blood on the white mulberry leaves. Pyramus' blood stains the white mulberry fruits, turning them dark. Thisbe returns, eager to tell Pyramus what had happened to her, but she finds Pyramus' dead body under the shade of the mulberry tree. Thisbe, after a brief period of mourning, stabs herself with the same sword. In the end, the gods listen to Thisbe's lament, and forever change the colour of the mulberry fruits into the stained colour to honour the forbidden love.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Wikipedia contributors. (2019, May 3). Pyramus and Thisbe. In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 20:04, May 4, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pyramus_and_Thisbe&amp;oldid=895386980&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Hero and Leander&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A brief summary of the story from Britannica:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hero and Leander, two lovers celebrated in Greek legend. Hero, virgin priestess of Aphrodite at Sestos, was seen at a festival by Leander of Abydos; they fell in love, and he swam the Hellespont at night to visit her, guided by a light from her tower. One stormy night the light was extinguished, and Leander was drowned; Hero, seeing his body, drowned herself likewise.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The story is preserved in Musaeus, Ovid, and elsewhere. It was also adapted by later poets, such as Christopher Marlowe (Hero and Leander), and alluded to by Lord Byron (The Bride of Abydos).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica. Hero and Leander. Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved May 07, 2019, from&#xD;&#xA;https://www.britannica.com/topic/Hero-Greek-mythology&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18782" PostHistoryTypeId="14" PostId="5505" RevisionGUID="14afb99f-aa40-4855-a104-20a9f6f74f34" CreationDate="2019-05-07T11:54:36.010" UserId="57" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;yannis&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="18783" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="5505" RevisionGUID="1618d12d-12fe-4124-b5be-e8f8f8a7f7ba" CreationDate="2019-05-07T11:54:36.010" UserId="57" Comment="85" />
  <row Id="18784" PostHistoryTypeId="16" PostId="5614" RevisionGUID="ee8044dd-2087-429f-9854-01bca623446f" CreationDate="2019-05-07T11:54:15.787" UserId="57" Comment="Added the other answers to this, to convert it to a community wiki answer - for details see: https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/11740/what-are-community-wiki-posts" />
  <row Id="18786" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5619" RevisionGUID="efb4447e-2012-4c4c-b9b7-1096e9f1ae2f" CreationDate="2019-05-07T13:13:21.037" UserId="57" Text="It is possible. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Several writers, including Homer and Hesiod, mention that Hephaistos married [Aglaea][1], one of the three Charites. Whether this happened before or after his marriage to Aphrodite is not entirely clear. It's also not clear if a second marriage implies divorce; although rare among the ancient Greeks, this could be an instance of polygamy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Furthermore, in most versions of the story of the birth of [Erichthonius][2] it is explicitly mentioned that Hephaistos attempt to rape Athena happens after he had been deserted by Aphrodite. Whether this implies divorce, is up to you.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You may find more details, including sources, on theoi.com: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Hephaestus Myths 2 Loves: Aphrodite][3]&#xD;&#xA;- [Hephaestus Myths 2 Loves: Athena &amp; Gaea][4]&#xD;&#xA;- [Hephaestus Myths 2 Loves: Aglaea][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aglaea&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erichthonius_of_Athens&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/HephaistosLoves.html#Aphrodite&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/HephaistosLoves.html#Athena&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/HephaistosLoves.html#Aglaia" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18787" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4654" RevisionGUID="38158752-f036-43e8-ace7-7a05b10a931a" CreationDate="2019-05-07T13:13:58.663" UserId="57" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="I come across every now and then that the smith god and the love goddess got a divorce. But to contrast that, I read they are still together in Roman myths and times. Though I also have contrast to that and I suppose it could be a copy of the Greek myths. Can anyone clear this up for me?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18788" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5614" RevisionGUID="24703f60-b5c4-40e2-a1c2-868f2a315137" CreationDate="2019-05-07T13:21:52.417" UserId="2807" Comment="Added &quot;Phaedra and Hippolytus&quot;" Text="## Queen Dido&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [The Aeneid](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneid) the legendary Carthaginian Queen [Dido](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dido) kills herself in despair, after Aeneas, her lover, abandons her. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Pyramus and Thisbe&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Metamorphoses IV. 55-166 you will find the story of Pyramus and Thisbe, an early example of star-crossed lovers. A brief summary of the plot, from Wikipedia: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Ovid's Metamorphoses, Pyramus and Thisbe are two lovers in the city of Babylon who occupy connected houses/walls, forbidden by their parents to be wed, because of their parents' rivalry. Through a crack in one of the walls, they whisper their love for each other. They arrange to meet near Ninus' tomb under a mulberry tree and state their feelings for each other. Thisbe arrives first, but upon seeing a lioness with a mouth bloody from a recent kill, she flees, leaving behind her veil. When Pyramus arrives he is horrified at the sight of Thisbe's veil in which the lioness had torn and left traces of blood behind, as well as its tracks. Assuming that a wild beast has killed her, Pyramus kills himself, falling on his sword, a typical Babylonian way to commit suicide, and in turn splashing blood on the white mulberry leaves. Pyramus' blood stains the white mulberry fruits, turning them dark. Thisbe returns, eager to tell Pyramus what had happened to her, but she finds Pyramus' dead body under the shade of the mulberry tree. Thisbe, after a brief period of mourning, stabs herself with the same sword. In the end, the gods listen to Thisbe's lament, and forever change the colour of the mulberry fruits into the stained colour to honour the forbidden love.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Wikipedia contributors. (2019, May 3). Pyramus and Thisbe. In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 20:04, May 4, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pyramus_and_Thisbe&amp;oldid=895386980&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Hero and Leander&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A brief summary of the story from Britannica:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hero and Leander, two lovers celebrated in Greek legend. Hero, virgin priestess of Aphrodite at Sestos, was seen at a festival by Leander of Abydos; they fell in love, and he swam the Hellespont at night to visit her, guided by a light from her tower. One stormy night the light was extinguished, and Leander was drowned; Hero, seeing his body, drowned herself likewise.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The story is preserved in Musaeus, Ovid, and elsewhere. It was also adapted by later poets, such as Christopher Marlowe (Hero and Leander), and alluded to by Lord Byron (The Bride of Abydos).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica. Hero and Leander. Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved May 07, 2019, from&#xD;&#xA;https://www.britannica.com/topic/Hero-Greek-mythology&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Phaedra and Hippolytus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The love of Phaedra for Hippolytus is unrequited, but it ends in death(s) too:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Though married to Theseus, Phaedra fell in love with Hippolytus,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Theseus's son by another woman (born to either Hippolyta, queen of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Amazons, or Antiope, her sister). Hippolytus rejected her.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In revenge, Phaedra wrote Theseus a letter that claimed Hippolytus had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; raped her. Theseus believed her and cursed Hippolytus with one of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; three curses he had received from Poseidon. As a result,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hippolytus's horses were frightened by a sea monster and dragged their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rider to his death.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In another version, after Phaedra told Theseus that Hippolytus had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; raped her, Theseus killed his son, and Phaedra then committed suicide&#xD;&#xA;&gt; out of guilt, for she had not intended Hippolytus to die. Artemis&#xD;&#xA;&gt; later told Theseus the truth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Wikipedia contributors. (2019, May 7). Phaedra (mythology). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 15:04, May 7, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaedra_(mythology)&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18789" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5614" RevisionGUID="be66775f-c0d9-455d-b1de-f5d60b32e7fd" CreationDate="2019-05-07T18:44:15.690" UserId="2892" Comment="Added Tristan &amp; Isolde, hugely influential, itself influenced by Pyramus &amp; Thisbe, although updated to reflect Medieval ideas.  (This example could use an answer of its own, as the themes are more complex than the Classical precursors.)" Text="## Queen Dido&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [The Aeneid](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneid) the legendary Carthaginian Queen [Dido](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dido) kills herself in despair, after Aeneas, her lover, abandons her. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Tristan &amp; Isolde&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Joseph Campbell wrote about these two, and highlighted the unification of divine and romantic love *(he calls it &quot;Roma&quot; vs. &quot;Amor&quot;, where Roma references the seat of the Catholic church in Rome.)*  The legend provides the template for Romeo &amp; Juliet, the background for Malory's *Le Morte d'Arthur*, and is the subject of one of Wagner's operas, quoted in Eliot's [The Wasteland][1]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tristan was now too weak to keep his watch from the cliff of the Penmarks, and for many long days, within walls, far from the shore, he had mourned for Iseult because she did not come. Dolorous and alone, he mourned and sighed in restlessness: he was near death from desire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At last the wind freshened and the white sail showed. Then it was that [Tristan's wife] took her vengeance [telling him his lover would not come to heal him]. And Tristan turned him to the wall, and said: “I cannot keep this life of mine any longer.” He said three times: “Iseult, my friend.” And in saying it the fourth time, he died. &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;...&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Iseult came in and said [to her]: “Lady, rise and let me come by him; I have more right to mourn him than have you—believe me. I loved him more.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;And when [Iseult] had turned to the east and prayed God, she moved the body a little and lay down by the dead man, beside her friend. She kissed his mouth and his face, and clasped him closely; and so gave up her soul, and died beside him of grief for her lover.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;“Le Roman de Tristan et Iseut,” by M. Joseph Bédier [(Gutenberg.org)][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After their deaths, am intertwined rose briar grows up their tombs, a symbol of their immortal love.  This incredibly influential legend is believed itself to have been influenced by Pyramus and Thisbe. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Pyramus and Thisbe&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Metamorphoses IV. 55-166 you will find the story of Pyramus and Thisbe, an early example of star-crossed lovers. A brief summary of the plot, from Wikipedia: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Ovid's Metamorphoses, Pyramus and Thisbe are two lovers in the city of Babylon who occupy connected houses/walls, forbidden by their parents to be wed, because of their parents' rivalry. Through a crack in one of the walls, they whisper their love for each other. They arrange to meet near Ninus' tomb under a mulberry tree and state their feelings for each other. Thisbe arrives first, but upon seeing a lioness with a mouth bloody from a recent kill, she flees, leaving behind her veil. When Pyramus arrives he is horrified at the sight of Thisbe's veil in which the lioness had torn and left traces of blood behind, as well as its tracks. Assuming that a wild beast has killed her, Pyramus kills himself, falling on his sword, a typical Babylonian way to commit suicide, and in turn splashing blood on the white mulberry leaves. Pyramus' blood stains the white mulberry fruits, turning them dark. Thisbe returns, eager to tell Pyramus what had happened to her, but she finds Pyramus' dead body under the shade of the mulberry tree. Thisbe, after a brief period of mourning, stabs herself with the same sword. In the end, the gods listen to Thisbe's lament, and forever change the colour of the mulberry fruits into the stained colour to honour the forbidden love.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Wikipedia contributors. (2019, May 3). Pyramus and Thisbe. In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 20:04, May 4, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pyramus_and_Thisbe&amp;oldid=895386980&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Hero and Leander&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A brief summary of the story from Britannica:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hero and Leander, two lovers celebrated in Greek legend. Hero, virgin priestess of Aphrodite at Sestos, was seen at a festival by Leander of Abydos; they fell in love, and he swam the Hellespont at night to visit her, guided by a light from her tower. One stormy night the light was extinguished, and Leander was drowned; Hero, seeing his body, drowned herself likewise.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The story is preserved in Musaeus, Ovid, and elsewhere. It was also adapted by later poets, such as Christopher Marlowe (Hero and Leander), and alluded to by Lord Byron (The Bride of Abydos).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica. Hero and Leander. Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved May 07, 2019, from&#xD;&#xA;https://www.britannica.com/topic/Hero-Greek-mythology&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Phaedra and Hippolytus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The love of Phaedra for Hippolytus is unrequited, but it ends in death(s) too:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Though married to Theseus, Phaedra fell in love with Hippolytus,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Theseus's son by another woman (born to either Hippolyta, queen of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Amazons, or Antiope, her sister). Hippolytus rejected her.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In revenge, Phaedra wrote Theseus a letter that claimed Hippolytus had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; raped her. Theseus believed her and cursed Hippolytus with one of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; three curses he had received from Poseidon. As a result,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hippolytus's horses were frightened by a sea monster and dragged their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rider to his death.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In another version, after Phaedra told Theseus that Hippolytus had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; raped her, Theseus killed his son, and Phaedra then committed suicide&#xD;&#xA;&gt; out of guilt, for she had not intended Hippolytus to die. Artemis&#xD;&#xA;&gt; later told Theseus the truth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Wikipedia contributors. (2019, May 7). Phaedra (mythology). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 15:04, May 7, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaedra_(mythology)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://wasteland.windingway.org/31/frisch-weht-der-wind&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14244/14244-h/14244-h.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18790" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5619" RevisionGUID="3406f85e-9987-4ee5-88da-24092f00ecaf" CreationDate="2019-05-07T19:03:02.380" UserId="57" Comment="improved the wording a bit, first version was a tad lazy" Text="Probably yes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Several writers, including Homer and Hesiod, mention that Hephaistos married [Aglaea][1], one of the three Charites. It is not entirely clear whether this happened before or after his marriage to Aphrodite, I could not find a source that explicitly mentions the order of Hephaistos's marriages. There's also a possibility that a second marriage doesn't imply a divorce. Polygamy was rare in ancient Greece, but we can't rule it out completely.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's also the story of the birth of [Erichthonius][2]. In most versions, it is explicitly mentioned that Hephaistos's' attempt to rape Athena happens after he had been &quot;deserted by Aphrodite&quot;. Although again this doesn't necessarily mean divorce, it certainly sounds like it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You may find more details, including sources, on theoi.com: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Hephaestus Myths 2 Loves: Aphrodite][3]&#xD;&#xA;- [Hephaestus Myths 2 Loves: Athena &amp; Gaea][4]&#xD;&#xA;- [Hephaestus Myths 2 Loves: Aglaea][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aglaea&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erichthonius_of_Athens&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/HephaistosLoves.html#Aphrodite&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/HephaistosLoves.html#Athena&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/HephaistosLoves.html#Aglaia" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18791" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5614" RevisionGUID="30b8dd0b-bfbf-4ff4-b00e-b1b827ba0cc6" CreationDate="2019-05-07T20:36:47.777" UserId="2892" Comment="added 134 characters in body" Text="## Queen Dido&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The legendary Carthaginian [Queen Dido][1] kills herself in despair after her lover Aeneas, [son of Aphrodite][3], abandons her. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Tristan &amp; Isolde&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Joseph Campbell wrote about these two, and highlighted the unification of divine and romantic love *(he calls it &quot;Roma&quot; vs. &quot;Amor&quot;, where Roma references the seat of the Catholic church in Rome.)*  The legend provides the template for Romeo &amp; Juliet, the background for Malory's *Le Morte d'Arthur*, and is the subject of one of Wagner's operas, quoted in Eliot's [The Wasteland][5]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tristan was now too weak to keep his watch from the cliff of the Penmarks, and for many long days, within walls, far from the shore, he had mourned for Iseult because she did not come. Dolorous and alone, he mourned and sighed in restlessness: he was near death from desire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At last the wind freshened and the white sail showed. Then it was that [Tristan's wife] took her vengeance [telling him his lover would not come to heal him]. And Tristan turned him to the wall, and said: “I cannot keep this life of mine any longer.” He said three times: “Iseult, my friend.” And in saying it the fourth time, he died. &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;...&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Iseult came in and said [to her]: “Lady, rise and let me come by him; I have more right to mourn him than have you—believe me. I loved him more.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;And when [Iseult] had turned to the east and prayed God, she moved the body a little and lay down by the dead man, beside her friend. She kissed his mouth and his face, and clasped him closely; and so gave up her soul, and died beside him of grief for her lover.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;“Le Roman de Tristan et Iseut,” by M. Joseph Bédier [(Gutenberg.org)][6]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After their deaths, am intertwined rose briar grows up their tombs, a symbol of their immortal love.  This incredibly influential legend is believed itself to have been influenced by Pyramus and Thisbe. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Pyramus and Thisbe&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Metamorphoses IV. 55-166 you will find the story of Pyramus and Thisbe, an early example of star-crossed lovers. A brief summary of the plot, from Wikipedia: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Ovid's Metamorphoses, Pyramus and Thisbe are two lovers in the city of Babylon who occupy connected houses/walls, forbidden by their parents to be wed, because of their parents' rivalry. Through a crack in one of the walls, they whisper their love for each other. They arrange to meet near Ninus' tomb under a mulberry tree and state their feelings for each other. Thisbe arrives first, but upon seeing a lioness with a mouth bloody from a recent kill, she flees, leaving behind her veil. When Pyramus arrives he is horrified at the sight of Thisbe's veil in which the lioness had torn and left traces of blood behind, as well as its tracks. Assuming that a wild beast has killed her, Pyramus kills himself, falling on his sword, a typical Babylonian way to commit suicide, and in turn splashing blood on the white mulberry leaves. Pyramus' blood stains the white mulberry fruits, turning them dark. Thisbe returns, eager to tell Pyramus what had happened to her, but she finds Pyramus' dead body under the shade of the mulberry tree. Thisbe, after a brief period of mourning, stabs herself with the same sword. In the end, the gods listen to Thisbe's lament, and forever change the colour of the mulberry fruits into the stained colour to honour the forbidden love.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Wikipedia contributors. (2019, May 3). Pyramus and Thisbe. In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 20:04, May 4, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pyramus_and_Thisbe&amp;oldid=895386980&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Hero and Leander&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A brief summary of the story from Britannica:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hero and Leander, two lovers celebrated in Greek legend. Hero, virgin priestess of Aphrodite at Sestos, was seen at a festival by Leander of Abydos; they fell in love, and he swam the Hellespont at night to visit her, guided by a light from her tower. One stormy night the light was extinguished, and Leander was drowned; Hero, seeing his body, drowned herself likewise.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The story is preserved in Musaeus, Ovid, and elsewhere. It was also adapted by later poets, such as Christopher Marlowe (Hero and Leander), and alluded to by Lord Byron (The Bride of Abydos).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica. Hero and Leander. Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved May 07, 2019, from&#xD;&#xA;https://www.britannica.com/topic/Hero-Greek-mythology&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Phaedra and Hippolytus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The love of Phaedra for Hippolytus is unrequited, but it ends in death(s) too:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Though married to Theseus, Phaedra fell in love with Hippolytus,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Theseus's son by another woman (born to either Hippolyta, queen of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Amazons, or Antiope, her sister). Hippolytus rejected her.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In revenge, Phaedra wrote Theseus a letter that claimed Hippolytus had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; raped her. Theseus believed her and cursed Hippolytus with one of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; three curses he had received from Poseidon. As a result,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hippolytus's horses were frightened by a sea monster and dragged their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rider to his death.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In another version, after Phaedra told Theseus that Hippolytus had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; raped her, Theseus killed his son, and Phaedra then committed suicide&#xD;&#xA;&gt; out of guilt, for she had not intended Hippolytus to die. Artemis&#xD;&#xA;&gt; later told Theseus the truth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Wikipedia contributors. (2019, May 7). Phaedra (mythology). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 15:04, May 7, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaedra_(mythology)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneid#Book_4:_Fate_of_Queen_Dido&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dido&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneas#Homeric_Hymn_to_Aphrodite&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/J8dnR.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://wasteland.windingway.org/31/frisch-weht-der-wind&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14244/14244-h/14244-h.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18792" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5614" RevisionGUID="6c02656b-6c69-4525-bfdf-c28ad7dfa9f4" CreationDate="2019-05-07T21:08:57.480" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 10 characters in body" Text="## Queen Dido&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The legendary Carthaginian [Queen Dido][1] kills herself in despair after her lover Aeneas, [son of Aphrodite][3], abandons her. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Tristan &amp; Isolde&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Joseph Campbell wrote about these two, emphasizing the unification of divine and romantic love *(he calls it &quot;Roma&quot; vs. &quot;Amor&quot;, Roma referencing the seat of the Catholic church in Rome.)*  The legend provides the template for Romeo &amp; Juliet, the background for Malory's *Le Morte d'Arthur*, and is the subject of one of Wagner's operas, quoted in [The Wasteland][5]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tristan was now too weak to keep his watch from the cliff of the Penmarks, and for many long days, within walls, far from the shore, he had mourned for Iseult because she did not come. Dolorous and alone, he mourned and sighed in restlessness: he was near death from desire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At last the wind freshened and the white sail showed. Then it was that [Tristan's wife] took her vengeance [telling him his lover would not come to heal him]. And Tristan turned him to the wall, and said: “I cannot keep this life of mine any longer.” He said three times: “Iseult, my friend.” And in saying it the fourth time, he died. &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;...&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Iseult came in and said [to her]: “Lady, rise and let me come by him; I have more right to mourn him than have you—believe me. I loved him more.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;And when [Iseult] had turned to the east and prayed God, she moved the body a little and lay down by the dead man, beside her friend. She kissed his mouth and his face, and clasped him closely; and so gave up her soul, and died beside him of grief for her lover.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;“Le Roman de Tristan et Iseut,” by M. Joseph Bédier [(Gutenberg.org)][6]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After their deaths, a rose briar grows up above their tombs, entwining, as a symbol of their immortal love.  This incredibly influential legend is believed itself to have been influenced by Pyramus and Thisbe. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Pyramus and Thisbe&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Metamorphoses IV. 55-166 you will find the story of Pyramus and Thisbe, an early example of star-crossed lovers. A brief summary of the plot, from Wikipedia: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Ovid's Metamorphoses, Pyramus and Thisbe are two lovers in the city of Babylon who occupy connected houses/walls, forbidden by their parents to be wed, because of their parents' rivalry. Through a crack in one of the walls, they whisper their love for each other. They arrange to meet near Ninus' tomb under a mulberry tree and state their feelings for each other. Thisbe arrives first, but upon seeing a lioness with a mouth bloody from a recent kill, she flees, leaving behind her veil. When Pyramus arrives he is horrified at the sight of Thisbe's veil in which the lioness had torn and left traces of blood behind, as well as its tracks. Assuming that a wild beast has killed her, Pyramus kills himself, falling on his sword, a typical Babylonian way to commit suicide, and in turn splashing blood on the white mulberry leaves. Pyramus' blood stains the white mulberry fruits, turning them dark. Thisbe returns, eager to tell Pyramus what had happened to her, but she finds Pyramus' dead body under the shade of the mulberry tree. Thisbe, after a brief period of mourning, stabs herself with the same sword. In the end, the gods listen to Thisbe's lament, and forever change the colour of the mulberry fruits into the stained colour to honour the forbidden love.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Wikipedia contributors. (2019, May 3). Pyramus and Thisbe. In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 20:04, May 4, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pyramus_and_Thisbe&amp;oldid=895386980&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Hero and Leander&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A brief summary of the story from Britannica:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hero and Leander, two lovers celebrated in Greek legend. Hero, virgin priestess of Aphrodite at Sestos, was seen at a festival by Leander of Abydos; they fell in love, and he swam the Hellespont at night to visit her, guided by a light from her tower. One stormy night the light was extinguished, and Leander was drowned; Hero, seeing his body, drowned herself likewise.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The story is preserved in Musaeus, Ovid, and elsewhere. It was also adapted by later poets, such as Christopher Marlowe (Hero and Leander), and alluded to by Lord Byron (The Bride of Abydos).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica. Hero and Leander. Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved May 07, 2019, from&#xD;&#xA;https://www.britannica.com/topic/Hero-Greek-mythology&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Phaedra and Hippolytus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The love of Phaedra for Hippolytus is unrequited, but it ends in death(s) too:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Though married to Theseus, Phaedra fell in love with Hippolytus,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Theseus's son by another woman (born to either Hippolyta, queen of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Amazons, or Antiope, her sister). Hippolytus rejected her.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In revenge, Phaedra wrote Theseus a letter that claimed Hippolytus had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; raped her. Theseus believed her and cursed Hippolytus with one of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; three curses he had received from Poseidon. As a result,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hippolytus's horses were frightened by a sea monster and dragged their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rider to his death.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In another version, after Phaedra told Theseus that Hippolytus had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; raped her, Theseus killed his son, and Phaedra then committed suicide&#xD;&#xA;&gt; out of guilt, for she had not intended Hippolytus to die. Artemis&#xD;&#xA;&gt; later told Theseus the truth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Wikipedia contributors. (2019, May 7). Phaedra (mythology). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 15:04, May 7, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaedra_(mythology)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneid#Book_4:_Fate_of_Queen_Dido&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dido&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneas#Homeric_Hymn_to_Aphrodite&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/J8dnR.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://wasteland.windingway.org/31/frisch-weht-der-wind&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14244/14244-h/14244-h.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18793" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5614" RevisionGUID="7614171c-641d-4893-acb2-ee4fcbb75ae9" CreationDate="2019-05-07T23:38:22.763" UserId="2807" Comment="Added &quot;Oenone and Paris&quot;" Text="## Queen Dido&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The legendary Carthaginian [Queen Dido][1] kills herself in despair after her lover Aeneas, [son of Aphrodite][3], abandons her. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Tristan &amp; Isolde&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Joseph Campbell wrote about these two, emphasizing the unification of divine and romantic love *(he calls it &quot;Roma&quot; vs. &quot;Amor&quot;, Roma referencing the seat of the Catholic church in Rome.)*  The legend provides the template for Romeo &amp; Juliet, the background for Malory's *Le Morte d'Arthur*, and is the subject of one of Wagner's operas, quoted in [The Wasteland][5]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tristan was now too weak to keep his watch from the cliff of the Penmarks, and for many long days, within walls, far from the shore, he had mourned for Iseult because she did not come. Dolorous and alone, he mourned and sighed in restlessness: he was near death from desire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At last the wind freshened and the white sail showed. Then it was that [Tristan's wife] took her vengeance [telling him his lover would not come to heal him]. And Tristan turned him to the wall, and said: “I cannot keep this life of mine any longer.” He said three times: “Iseult, my friend.” And in saying it the fourth time, he died. &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;...&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Iseult came in and said [to her]: “Lady, rise and let me come by him; I have more right to mourn him than have you—believe me. I loved him more.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;And when [Iseult] had turned to the east and prayed God, she moved the body a little and lay down by the dead man, beside her friend. She kissed his mouth and his face, and clasped him closely; and so gave up her soul, and died beside him of grief for her lover.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;“Le Roman de Tristan et Iseut,” by M. Joseph Bédier [(Gutenberg.org)][6]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After their deaths, a rose briar grows up above their tombs, entwining, as a symbol of their immortal love.  This incredibly influential legend is believed itself to have been influenced by Pyramus and Thisbe. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Pyramus and Thisbe&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Metamorphoses IV. 55-166 you will find the story of Pyramus and Thisbe, an early example of star-crossed lovers. A brief summary of the plot, from Wikipedia: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Ovid's Metamorphoses, Pyramus and Thisbe are two lovers in the city of Babylon who occupy connected houses/walls, forbidden by their parents to be wed, because of their parents' rivalry. Through a crack in one of the walls, they whisper their love for each other. They arrange to meet near Ninus' tomb under a mulberry tree and state their feelings for each other. Thisbe arrives first, but upon seeing a lioness with a mouth bloody from a recent kill, she flees, leaving behind her veil. When Pyramus arrives he is horrified at the sight of Thisbe's veil in which the lioness had torn and left traces of blood behind, as well as its tracks. Assuming that a wild beast has killed her, Pyramus kills himself, falling on his sword, a typical Babylonian way to commit suicide, and in turn splashing blood on the white mulberry leaves. Pyramus' blood stains the white mulberry fruits, turning them dark. Thisbe returns, eager to tell Pyramus what had happened to her, but she finds Pyramus' dead body under the shade of the mulberry tree. Thisbe, after a brief period of mourning, stabs herself with the same sword. In the end, the gods listen to Thisbe's lament, and forever change the colour of the mulberry fruits into the stained colour to honour the forbidden love.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Wikipedia contributors. (2019, May 3). Pyramus and Thisbe. In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 20:04, May 4, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pyramus_and_Thisbe&amp;oldid=895386980&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Hero and Leander&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A brief summary of the story from Britannica:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hero and Leander, two lovers celebrated in Greek legend. Hero, virgin priestess of Aphrodite at Sestos, was seen at a festival by Leander of Abydos; they fell in love, and he swam the Hellespont at night to visit her, guided by a light from her tower. One stormy night the light was extinguished, and Leander was drowned; Hero, seeing his body, drowned herself likewise.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The story is preserved in Musaeus, Ovid, and elsewhere. It was also adapted by later poets, such as Christopher Marlowe (Hero and Leander), and alluded to by Lord Byron (The Bride of Abydos).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica. Hero and Leander. Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved May 07, 2019, from&#xD;&#xA;https://www.britannica.com/topic/Hero-Greek-mythology&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Phaedra and Hippolytus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The love of Phaedra for Hippolytus is unrequited, but it ends in death(s) too:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Though married to Theseus, Phaedra fell in love with Hippolytus,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Theseus's son by another woman (born to either Hippolyta, queen of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Amazons, or Antiope, her sister). Hippolytus rejected her.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In revenge, Phaedra wrote Theseus a letter that claimed Hippolytus had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; raped her. Theseus believed her and cursed Hippolytus with one of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; three curses he had received from Poseidon. As a result,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hippolytus's horses were frightened by a sea monster and dragged their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rider to his death.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In another version, after Phaedra told Theseus that Hippolytus had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; raped her, Theseus killed his son, and Phaedra then committed suicide&#xD;&#xA;&gt; out of guilt, for she had not intended Hippolytus to die. Artemis&#xD;&#xA;&gt; later told Theseus the truth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Wikipedia contributors. (2019, May 7). Phaedra (mythology). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 15:04, May 7, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaedra_(mythology)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Oenone and Paris&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Oenone was a mountain nymph and the wife of Paris, until the Trojan prince abandoned her for Helen. After the fall of Troy the once lovers met again:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mortally wounded by Philoctetes' arrow, he begged Oenone to heal him&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with her herbal arts, but she refused and cast him out with scorn,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to return to Helen's bed, and Paris died on the lower slopes of Ida.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then, overcome with remorse, Oenone, the one whole-hearted mourner of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Paris, threw herself onto his burning funeral pyre, which the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shepherds had raised. A fragment of Bacchylides suggests that she&#xD;&#xA;&gt; threw herself off a cliff, in Bibliotheke it is noted &quot;when she&#xD;&#xA;&gt; found him dead she hanged herself,&quot; and Lycophron imagined her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hurtling head first from the towering walls of Troy. Her tragic story&#xD;&#xA;&gt; makes one of the Love Romances of Parthenius of Nicaea.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Wikipedia contributors. (2019, May 8). Oenone. In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 15:04, May 8, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oenone&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneid#Book_4:_Fate_of_Queen_Dido&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dido&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneas#Homeric_Hymn_to_Aphrodite&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/J8dnR.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://wasteland.windingway.org/31/frisch-weht-der-wind&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14244/14244-h/14244-h.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18794" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5620" RevisionGUID="0f1fe061-a0b3-4218-9172-219977987a0e" CreationDate="2019-05-08T10:30:23.780" UserId="3230" Text="In Canto XXVI Dante encounters Odysseus and Diomedes. Odysseus account of his exploits after Troy differ from the more familiar story in Homer’s Odyssey. Notably, Dante’s Odysseus does not return to Ithaca, deciding to travel beyond the known world instead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where did Dante learn about Odysseus? Is his version of the story original?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18795" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5620" RevisionGUID="0f1fe061-a0b3-4218-9172-219977987a0e" CreationDate="2019-05-08T10:30:23.780" UserId="3230" Text="Why is Dante’s Odysseus different from Homer’s?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18796" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5620" RevisionGUID="0f1fe061-a0b3-4218-9172-219977987a0e" CreationDate="2019-05-08T10:30:23.780" UserId="3230" Text="|homer|odyssey|dante|inferno|divine-comedy|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18797" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5617" RevisionGUID="640f9dae-9f06-45c1-84ad-37d4cf5d572a" CreationDate="2019-05-08T11:11:04.853" UserId="3230" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body" Text="The story of Perses deposing Aeëtes and getting killed by Medea can be found in *Apollodorus 1.9.28*: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Medea came to Athens, and being there married to Aegeus bore him a son Medus. Afterwards, however, plotting against Theseus, she was driven a fugitive from Athens with her son. But he conquered many barbarians and called the whole country under him Media, and marching against the Indians he met his death. And Medea came unknown to Colchis, and finding that Aeetes had been deposed by his brother Perses, she killed Perses and restored the kingdom to her father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Apollodorus. Apollodorus, The Library, with an English Translation by Sir James George Frazer, F.B.A., F.R.S. in 2 Volumes. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1921. Includes Frazer's notes.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyginus gives a slightly different account of his death in *Fabulae 27*. Here it is Medea's son Medus that kills Perses: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; An oracle told Perses, son of Sol, Aeetes' brother, that he should beware of death from Aeetes' descendants. Medus, following his mother, was brought to him by a storm, and guards seized him and brought him to King Perses. When Medus, son of Aegeus and Medea, saw that he had come into the power of his enemy, he falsely asserted he was Hippotes, son of Creon. The king carefully investigated, and ordered him cast into prison. There sterility and scarcity of crops are said to have occurred. When Medea had come there in her chariot with the yoked dragons, she falsely claimed before the king to be a priestess of Diana. She said she could make atonement for the sterility, and when she heard from the king that Hippotes, son of Creon, was held in custody, thinking he had come to avenge the injury to his father ... there, unknowingly, she betrayed her son. For she persuaded the king that he was not Hippotes, but Medus, son of Aegeus, sent by his father to dispatch the king, and begged that he be handed over to her to kill, convinced that he was Hippotes. And so when Medus was brought out to pay for his deceit by death, when she saw that things were otherwise than she had thought, she said she wished to talk with him, and gave him a sword, and bade him avenge the wrongs of his grandfather. Medus, at this news, killed Perses, and gained his grandfather's kingdom; from his name he called the country Media.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Library* Diodorus Siculus informs us that Perses was king of the Tauric Chersonese and that he fathered [Hecate][1], conflating him with the [Titan Perses, son of Crius][2]. Diodorus also has Medus killing Perses instead of Medea:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4\.45\.1\. Since it is the task of history to inquire into the reasons for this slaying of strangers, we must discuss these reasons briefly, especially since the digression on this subject will be appropriate in connection with the deeds of the Argonauts. We are told, that is, that Helius had two sons, Aeëtes and Perses, Aeëtes being king of Colchis and the other king of the Tauric Chersonese, and that both of them were exceedingly cruel.&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4\.45\.2\. And Perses had a daughter Hecatê, who surpassed her father in boldness and lawlessness; she was also fond of hunting, and with she had no luck she would turn her arrows upon human beings instead of the beasts&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4\.56\.1\. Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvelous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out; and some indeed, in their desire to win favour with the Athenians, say that she took that Medus who she bore to Aegeus and got off safe to Colchis; and at that time Aeëtes, who had been forcibly driven from the throne by his brother Perses, and regained his kingdom, Medus, Medea’s son, having slain Perses; and that afterwards Medus, securing the command of an army, advanced over a large part of Asia which lies above the Pontus and secured possession of Media, which has been named after this Medus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; Diodorus Siculus. Diodorus of Sicily in Twelve Volumes with an English Translation by C. H. Oldfather. Vol. 4-8. Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press; London: William Heinemann, Ltd. 1989.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I couldn't find a source directly connecting Perses to Persia. I assume Madeline Miller is conflating Perses of Colchis with [Perses, son of Perseus][3]. The latter was identified as the ancestor of the Persians by several writers (e.g Herodotus and Plato), having fathered the [Perseides][4] with the Oceanid Perse. Which of course - if we assume two different Perses - would make Perses of Colchis a half-brother to first generation Persians.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hat tip to [b a][5] for noticing that [German Wikipedia identified its sources][6].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecate&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Perses_(Titan)&amp;oldid=881046717&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perses_(son_of_Perseus)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseides&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/users/5229/b-a&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Perses_(Sohn_des_Helios)&amp;oldid=162978363" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18798" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5182" RevisionGUID="0d26e57d-da50-47f3-8239-cecd89b64b4f" CreationDate="2019-05-08T11:19:42.023" UserId="3230" Comment="edited body; edited title" Text="If you have read Harry Potter/Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them by Joanne Rowling, you see references to Greek/Roman Mythology everywhere. To name a few (or more),&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Hermione, princess of Sparta&#xD;&#xA; - Minerva, Roman goddess of wisdom&#xD;&#xA; - Fluffy/Kerberos, three headed guard dog&#xD;&#xA; - Scamander, river god near Troy&#xD;&#xA; - Theseus, Greek hero&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But one I never imagined would come up in relation to Greek Mythology was Rubeus Hagrid. I always heard Rowling was struck with the inspiration for this character after she saw a tall biker somewhere.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But, I just came across a [Prezi][1] that lists Hagrid as a Greek Mythology inspiration. On slide eleven, it says that Hagrid Rubes, known as the giant of the jewels, was a kind giant, but was framed for murder and banished from Olympus to take care of animals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After a few searches online, this is all the information that is said about Hagrid Rubes. But what murder did Hagrid Rubes get blamed for? Why was his punishment to take care of animals? Why was he known as the giant of the jewels?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://prezi.com/hjm88tlotg9n/mythological-references-in-harry-potter/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18799" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5182" RevisionGUID="0d26e57d-da50-47f3-8239-cecd89b64b4f" CreationDate="2019-05-08T11:19:42.023" UserId="3230" Comment="edited body; edited title" Text="Is there a kind giant named Hagrid Rubes in Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18800" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4752" RevisionGUID="3626a60d-1160-4013-a050-e51a7ddaea35" CreationDate="2019-05-08T11:47:32.747" UserId="3230" Comment="added proper citation for the wikipedia quote" Text="I found this on the Ages of Man Wikipedia article, in the section about Hesiod's Five Ages:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At the height of this age, humans no longer feel shame or indignation at wrongdoing; babies will be born with gray hair and the gods will have completely forsaken humanity: &quot;there will be no help against evil.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Wikipedia contributors. (2019, April 17). Ages of Man. In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 11:44, May 8, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ages_of_Man&amp;oldid=892931853 &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the interpretation for &quot;babies will be born with gray hair?&quot; Did Hesiod mean it literally or as a symbol?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18801" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4752" RevisionGUID="3626a60d-1160-4013-a050-e51a7ddaea35" CreationDate="2019-05-08T11:47:32.747" UserId="3230" Comment="added proper citation for the wikipedia quote" Text="What does Hesiod mean by &quot;babies will be born with gray hair&quot; in the Iron Age?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18802" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="4671" RevisionGUID="6a4edee8-b400-44f9-8bc5-c73c41e4d206" CreationDate="2019-05-08T11:50:04.763" UserId="3230" Comment="edited tags" Text="|sacrifice|rituals|aztec|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18804" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5621" RevisionGUID="f41cec42-ab4e-4bdf-b555-33dbf0076985" CreationDate="2019-05-08T14:18:54.697" UserId="6036" Text="To be honest, Pandora's Box might represent why there is evil and misery in the world. In my opinion, it was Zeus's fault that she opened the box because he was the one who gave her the power of curiosity." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18805" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5620" RevisionGUID="d78fcf81-d561-4cf4-8351-c1c22140c050" CreationDate="2019-05-08T14:34:03.890" UserId="108" Comment="added 18 characters in body" Text="In Canto XXVI of the *Inferno*, Dante encounters Odysseus and Diomedes. Odysseus account of his exploits after Troy differ from the more familiar story in Homer’s Odyssey. Notably, Dante’s Odysseus does not return to Ithaca, deciding to travel beyond the known world instead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where did Dante learn about Odysseus? Is his version of the story original?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18806" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5622" RevisionGUID="e1a8296c-6679-483e-bff9-a56ce89b7175" CreationDate="2019-05-08T14:38:43.590" UserId="108" Text="For one thing, Dante never read Homer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like most medieval Christians, Dante did not have direct access to the original Greek texts. Instead, they would've learnt of ancient Greek mythology through the works of later Roman poets, principally Virgil and Ovid, who inevitably added their own interpretation to the epics. Dante, moreover, seem not to have even read the [*Ilias Latina*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilias_Latina), a Latin version of the Illiad.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He seems to have been unfamiliar with Ilias latina, a Latin version of the Iliad, now thought to have been the work of the Iliad, now thought to have been the work of Baebius Italicus in the first century CE.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Barański, Zygmunt G., and Lino Pertile, eds. *Dante in Context.* Cambridge University Press, 2015.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Specifically, Virgil portrayed Ulysses as a deceitful manipulator, whereas the Greeks seems to have considered Odysseus' cunning and quick wits a virtue. Virgil's version is the one that Dante encounters in Hell.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, the specific story Dante's Ulisse tells of his fate appears to be original work.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dante's apparently original reworking of the conclusion of Odysseus' story is well known. The disastrous last voyage of this voracious and restless intellect has been read as a metaphor for the &quot;misguided philosophical Odyssey&quot; of Dante's own experience just after the death of Beatrice.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Lamberton, Robert. *Homer the Theologian: Neoplatonist allegorical reading and the growth of the epic tradition.* University of California Press, 1989.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18807" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5614" RevisionGUID="0da8c105-9f5d-4335-8071-b0e21e113693" CreationDate="2019-05-08T17:18:55.780" UserId="2892" Comment="added 70 characters in body" Text="## Queen Dido&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The legendary Carthaginian [Queen Dido][1] kills herself in despair after her lover Aeneas, [son of Aphrodite][2], abandons her. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Tristan &amp; Isolde&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Joseph Campbell wrote about these two, emphasizing the unification of divine and romantic love *(he calls it &quot;Roma&quot; vs. &quot;Amor&quot;, Roma referencing the seat of the Catholic church in Rome.)*  The legend provides the template for Romeo &amp; Juliet, the background for Malory's *Le Morte d'Arthur*, and is the subject of one of Wagner's operas, quoted in [The Wasteland][4]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tristan was now too weak to keep his watch from the cliff of the Penmarks, and for many long days, within walls, far from the shore, he had mourned for Iseult because she did not come. Dolorous and alone, he mourned and sighed in restlessness: he was near death from desire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At last the wind freshened and the white sail showed. Then it was that [Tristan's wife] took her vengeance [telling him his lover would not come to heal him]. And Tristan turned him to the wall, and said: “I cannot keep this life of mine any longer.” He said three times: “Iseult, my friend.” And in saying it the fourth time, he died. &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;...&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Iseult came in and said [to her]: “Lady, rise and let me come by him; I have more right to mourn him than have you—believe me. I loved him more.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;And when [Iseult] had turned to the east and prayed God, she moved the body a little and lay down by the dead man, beside her friend. She kissed his mouth and his face, and clasped him closely; and so gave up her soul, and died beside him of grief for her lover.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;“Le Roman de Tristan et Iseut,” by M. Joseph Bédier [(Gutenberg.org)][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After their deaths, a rose briar grows up above their tombs, entwining, as a symbol of their immortal love.  This incredibly influential legend is believed itself to have been influenced by Pyramus and Thisbe. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Pyramus and Thisbe&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [Metamorphoses IV. 55-166][6] you will find the story of Pyramus and Thisbe, an early example of star-crossed lovers. A brief summary of the plot, from Wikipedia: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Ovid's Metamorphoses, Pyramus and Thisbe are two lovers in the city of Babylon who occupy connected houses/walls, forbidden by their parents to be wed, because of their parents' rivalry. Through a crack in one of the walls, they whisper their love for each other. They arrange to meet near Ninus' tomb under a mulberry tree and state their feelings for each other. Thisbe arrives first, but upon seeing a lioness with a mouth bloody from a recent kill, she flees, leaving behind her veil. When Pyramus arrives he is horrified at the sight of Thisbe's veil in which the lioness had torn and left traces of blood behind, as well as its tracks. Assuming that a wild beast has killed her, Pyramus kills himself, falling on his sword, a typical Babylonian way to commit suicide, and in turn splashing blood on the white mulberry leaves. Pyramus' blood stains the white mulberry fruits, turning them dark. Thisbe returns, eager to tell Pyramus what had happened to her, but she finds Pyramus' dead body under the shade of the mulberry tree. Thisbe, after a brief period of mourning, stabs herself with the same sword. In the end, the gods listen to Thisbe's lament, and forever change the colour of the mulberry fruits into the stained colour to honour the forbidden love.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Wikipedia contributors. (2019, May 3). Pyramus and Thisbe. In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 20:04, May 4, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pyramus_and_Thisbe&amp;oldid=895386980&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Hero and Leander&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A brief summary of the story from Britannica:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hero and Leander, two lovers celebrated in Greek legend. Hero, virgin priestess of Aphrodite at Sestos, was seen at a festival by Leander of Abydos; they fell in love, and he swam the Hellespont at night to visit her, guided by a light from her tower. One stormy night the light was extinguished, and Leander was drowned; Hero, seeing his body, drowned herself likewise.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The story is preserved in Musaeus, Ovid, and elsewhere. It was also adapted by later poets, such as Christopher Marlowe (Hero and Leander), and alluded to by Lord Byron (The Bride of Abydos).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica. Hero and Leander. Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved May 07, 2019, from&#xD;&#xA;https://www.britannica.com/topic/Hero-Greek-mythology&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Phaedra and Hippolytus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The love of Phaedra for Hippolytus is unrequited, but it ends in death(s) too:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Though married to Theseus, Phaedra fell in love with Hippolytus,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Theseus's son by another woman (born to either Hippolyta, queen of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Amazons, or Antiope, her sister). Hippolytus rejected her.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In revenge, Phaedra wrote Theseus a letter that claimed Hippolytus had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; raped her. Theseus believed her and cursed Hippolytus with one of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; three curses he had received from Poseidon. As a result,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hippolytus's horses were frightened by a sea monster and dragged their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rider to his death.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In another version, after Phaedra told Theseus that Hippolytus had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; raped her, Theseus killed his son, and Phaedra then committed suicide&#xD;&#xA;&gt; out of guilt, for she had not intended Hippolytus to die. Artemis&#xD;&#xA;&gt; later told Theseus the truth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Wikipedia contributors. (2019, May 7). Phaedra (mythology). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 15:04, May 7, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaedra_(mythology)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Oenone and Paris&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Oenone was a mountain nymph and the wife of Paris, until the Trojan prince abandoned her for Helen. After the fall of Troy the once lovers met again:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mortally wounded by Philoctetes' arrow, he begged Oenone to heal him&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with her herbal arts, but she refused and cast him out with scorn,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to return to Helen's bed, and Paris died on the lower slopes of Ida.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then, overcome with remorse, Oenone, the one whole-hearted mourner of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Paris, threw herself onto his burning funeral pyre, which the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shepherds had raised. A fragment of Bacchylides suggests that she&#xD;&#xA;&gt; threw herself off a cliff, in Bibliotheke it is noted &quot;when she&#xD;&#xA;&gt; found him dead she hanged herself,&quot; and Lycophron imagined her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hurtling head first from the towering walls of Troy. Her tragic story&#xD;&#xA;&gt; makes one of the Love Romances of Parthenius of Nicaea.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Wikipedia contributors. (2019, May 8). Oenone. In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 15:04, May 8, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oenone&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneid#Book_4:_Fate_of_Queen_Dido&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneas#Homeric_Hymn_to_Aphrodite&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/J8dnR.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://wasteland.windingway.org/31/frisch-weht-der-wind&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14244/14244-h/14244-h.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D4%3Acard%3D55" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18808" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5623" RevisionGUID="b8deeff0-2d85-4ef0-aea2-017b88ce6184" CreationDate="2019-05-08T21:56:06.863" UserId="57" Text="Pausanias tells the legend of the [Teumessian fox][1], a fox destined never to be caught sent by Dionysus to destroy Thebes, the god's birthplace according to the Zeus and Semele narrative:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 9\.19\.1 On this highway is a place called Teumessus, where it is said that Europa was hidden by Zeus. There is also another legend, which tells of a fox called the Teumessian fox, how owing to the wrath of Dionysus the beast was reared to destroy the Thebans, and how, when about to be caught by the hound given by Artemis to Procris the daughter of Erechtheus, the fox was turned into a stone, as was likewise this hound. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Pausanias. Pausanias Description of Greece with an English Translation by W.H.S. Jones, Litt.D., and H.A. Ormerod, M.A., in 4 Volumes. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1918.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What did the Thebans do to deserve this punishment?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teumessian_fox" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18809" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5623" RevisionGUID="b8deeff0-2d85-4ef0-aea2-017b88ce6184" CreationDate="2019-05-08T21:56:06.863" UserId="57" Text="What did the Thebans do to cause the wrath of Dionysus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18810" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5623" RevisionGUID="b8deeff0-2d85-4ef0-aea2-017b88ce6184" CreationDate="2019-05-08T21:56:06.863" UserId="57" Text="|greek|dionysus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18811" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5624" RevisionGUID="26288a43-6693-4c98-ac92-a0a4f9007182" CreationDate="2019-05-09T02:47:35.097" UserId="4271" Text="We often see Hera punishing Zeus's children or the mothers because of her jealousy. But such is not the case with the hero Perseus or her mother. She isn't even mentioned trying to cause any harm to them (that I have thus read). Why is that? What doesn't Hera antagonize Perseus as she did Heracles, Leto, Io, Echo, Semele, Dionysus and many other?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18812" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5624" RevisionGUID="26288a43-6693-4c98-ac92-a0a4f9007182" CreationDate="2019-05-09T02:47:35.097" UserId="4271" Text="Did Hera know that Perseus was Zeus's son?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18813" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5624" RevisionGUID="26288a43-6693-4c98-ac92-a0a4f9007182" CreationDate="2019-05-09T02:47:35.097" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|hera|perseus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18814" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5625" RevisionGUID="aaede9b1-f64e-41d0-bcca-dcf533d2a82d" CreationDate="2019-05-09T03:24:02.807" UserId="4271" Text="It is said in the Iliad that one of the [Hundred Handers][1] was known by two names, one for the gods to call him and one for men to call him. His name by the gods was Briareus and him name by man was called Aegaeon. Why was he the only one of the three to have names for mortal and gods to call him by?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecatoncheires" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18815" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5625" RevisionGUID="aaede9b1-f64e-41d0-bcca-dcf533d2a82d" CreationDate="2019-05-09T03:24:02.807" UserId="4271" Text="Why was one of the Hecatoncheires known by a different by men and the gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18816" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5625" RevisionGUID="aaede9b1-f64e-41d0-bcca-dcf533d2a82d" CreationDate="2019-05-09T03:24:02.807" UserId="4271" Text="|greek|names|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18817" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5625" RevisionGUID="c8685ceb-ea70-4fa8-8419-788df6cb46d7" CreationDate="2019-05-09T07:47:54.417" UserId="57" Comment="added 3 characters in body; edited title" Text="It is said in the Iliad that one of the [Hundred Handers][1] was known by two names, one for the gods to call him and one for men to call him. His name by the gods was Briareus but men called him Aegaeon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why was he the only one of the three to have different names for mortals and gods to call him by?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecatoncheires" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18818" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5625" RevisionGUID="c8685ceb-ea70-4fa8-8419-788df6cb46d7" CreationDate="2019-05-09T07:47:54.417" UserId="57" Comment="added 3 characters in body; edited title" Text="Why was one of the Hecatoncheires known by a different name by men and the gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18819" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="2723" RevisionGUID="06914fcf-8081-4919-88d1-2384dafe69f5" CreationDate="2019-05-09T14:01:50.433" UserId="-1" Comment="82" />
  <row Id="18820" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5626" RevisionGUID="359dca6f-c4c5-4d73-abc2-435688433d2c" CreationDate="2019-05-09T17:17:00.357" UserId="5726" Text="Zeus was well known for his sexual escapades (both willing or unwilling).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; These resulted in many [divine][1] &lt;sub&gt;(Gods,Olympians)&lt;/sub&gt; and [heroic offspring][2] &lt;sub&gt;(demi-gods)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question is : **Who was Zeus' first child made with a mortal?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Greek_mythological_figures#Immortals&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_demigods#Greek_mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18821" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5626" RevisionGUID="359dca6f-c4c5-4d73-abc2-435688433d2c" CreationDate="2019-05-09T17:17:00.357" UserId="5726" Text="Who was Zeus' first child made with a mortal?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18822" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5626" RevisionGUID="359dca6f-c4c5-4d73-abc2-435688433d2c" CreationDate="2019-05-09T17:17:00.357" UserId="5726" Text="|greek|zeus|demi-gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18823" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5626" RevisionGUID="291d810c-0704-44af-a098-05b8faf10515" CreationDate="2019-05-09T17:24:08.983" UserId="5726" Comment="added 5 characters in body; edited title" Text="Zeus was well known for his sexual escapades (both willing or unwilling).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; These resulted in many [divine][1] &lt;sub&gt;(Gods,Olympians)&lt;/sub&gt; and [heroic offspring][2] &lt;sub&gt;(demi-gods)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question is : **Who was Zeus' first child conceived with a mortal?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Greek_mythological_figures#Immortals&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_demigods#Greek_mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18824" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5626" RevisionGUID="291d810c-0704-44af-a098-05b8faf10515" CreationDate="2019-05-09T17:24:08.983" UserId="5726" Comment="added 5 characters in body; edited title" Text="Who was Zeus' first child conceived with a mortal?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18825" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5627" RevisionGUID="ccd61e7b-dcc3-4ecc-b30a-d5122e37b0d4" CreationDate="2019-05-09T19:07:03.987" UserId="2892" Text="I'm going to propose:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Minos, King of Crete][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason is that he is a contemporary of Theseus' father, [King Aegeus][2], and Theseus was in the first generation of heroes, which includes Herakles, who predate the heroes of the Trojan war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minos&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegeus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18826" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5628" RevisionGUID="c59f0086-8b83-4acf-9c0f-1c723590d2a2" CreationDate="2019-05-10T02:47:48.003" UserId="2682" Text="**Argos** (and his brother **Pelasgos**)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Apollodorus, Hyginus, and Diodorus Siculus, the first mortal consort of Zeus was a princess named **Niobe, daughter of Phoroneus**. (*This* Niobe is not to be confused with the tragic, younger and more famous one, who was the daughter of the Lydian king Tantalos [Tantalus]. The Lydian Niobe lived about eight generations after the one in question here.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Long ago the city of Argos had a different name. It had been founded in prehistoric times by the god Inakhos [Inachus], one of the thousands of sons of the Titan Okeanos [Oceanus]. These sons were the rivers of the world, and Inakhos founded a city upon his own body, the River Inakhos, and named the city Inakhos, after himself, also installing himself as its first king and priest. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Inakhos married his own sister Melia, and together they had a son named Phoroneus, who, when he had grown up, Inakhos placed upon the throne in his own stead. Phoroneus renamed the city Phoroneia, after himself. After the Flood in which Zeus sought to destroy humankind, Phoroneus is credited with discovering fire, teaching people to live in cities again and being the first to offer sacrifices to Hera in his city. This Flood, however, would only come in the time of his great-grandchildren, into which time he still lived. More on that below. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Phoroneus had various children, including a son named Apis and a daughter called Niobe. The city of Phoroneia was located on the vast peninsula of southern Greece, and Phoroneus placed this whole peninsula under the rule of Apis, who named the land Apia after himself. Much later on it would be renamed Peloponnesos (by Pelops son of Tantalos, and therefore brother of that *other* Niobe.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meanwhile Apis's sister Niobe became the first mortal woman to be bedded by Zeus, and they had at least one son, called **Argos** [Latinised as *Argus*]. After Apis died Argos became king of Apia, which he renamed Argos after himself. Argos then became the name of both the entire peninsula as well as of the city of Argos which previously was Phoroneia, and prior to that, Inakhos. While the peninsula was later renamed Peloponnesos (when Pelops conquered it), Argos remains the name of the city to this day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Argos on Peloponnesos Map][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus and Niobe also had another son, named **Pelasgos** [Pelasgus]. Argos features way more prominently in connection with their native city so perhaps he was older but we are otherwise not furnished with such information. They could also have been twins. At any rate Pelasgos is alternately said to have been an Autokhthon (born directly out of the Earth) or that his father's name was Palaikhthon [Palaechthon], who in turn was himself an Autokhthon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pelasgos was the first king of Pelasgia, a large region of the Apia/Argos/Peloponnesos peninsula, which, true to family tradition, he had named after himself. He was the father of the notoriously impious Lykaon [Lycaon], whom Zeus turned into a wolf. Zeus also consorted with Lykaon's daughter Kallisto ([Callisto] who was therefore Zeus's own great-granddaughter). It was during Lykaon's reign over Pelasgia that Zeus flooded the Earth, and afterwards Arkas [Arcas], the son of Zeus and Kallisto, became king of Pelasgia, which he renamed Arkadia [Arcadia]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the 1st and 2nd sections of *Bibliotheka* [Library] 2.1, Apollodorus says that:    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Argos was the son of Niobe and Zeus (she was the first mortal woman with whom he had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; intercourse). According to Akousilaos, Pelasgos was also their son, and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; inhabitants of Peloponnesos were called Pelasgoi [*Pelasgians*] after him. But&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hesiod says that Pelasgos was an Authokhthon [*&quot;a son of the soil&quot;*]... &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Argos received the kingdom and called Peloponnesos after himself&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Argos; and having married Evadne, daughter of Strymon and Neaira, he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; begat Ekbasos, Peiras, Epidauros, and Kriasos, the last one of these being the  successor to the kingdom.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyginus, writing in Latin, uses the Roman names of the gods and other characters, saying, in *Fabulae* 145:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; From Phoroneus and Cinna were born Apis and Niobe. The latter was the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; first mortal to be embraced by Jupiter [*Zeus*]. She gave birth to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Argus, who gave his name to the city of Argos. Argus and Evadne had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; three children: Criasus, Piranthus and Ecbasus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Diodorus Siculus tells us that the *last* mortal woman with whom Zeus consorted was Alkmene [Alcmene], upon whom he fathered the great hero Herakles [Heracles]. He notes the phenomenon that Alkmene was herself a descendant of Niobe in his *Bibliotheka Historika* [Library of History] 4.14.4. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The first mortal woman... with whom Zeus lay was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Niobe, the daughter of Phoroneus, and the last was Alkmene, who, as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mythographers state in their genealogies, was the sixteenth lineal&#xD;&#xA;&gt; descendant from Niobe. It appears, then, that Zeus began to beget&#xD;&#xA;&gt; human beings with the ancestors of this Alkmene and ceased with her;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that is, he stopped with her his intercourse with mortal women, since&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he had no hope that he would beget in after times one who would be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; worthy of his former children and was unwilling to have the better&#xD;&#xA;&gt; followed by the worse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;**Genealogical Sidenotes**&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Nearly a thousand years after the time Alkmene would have lived, however, there was quite a bit of propaganda promoting the notion that Alexandros III of Makedonia, better known in English as Alexander the Great, was the son of Zeus by a mortal queen.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;I am unable to figure out where Diodorus's &quot;mythographers&quot; get their sixteen generations between Niobe and Alkmene. There is indeed a version of her genealogy in which Alkmene is descended from Niobe, through Mantineus son of Lykaon, son of Pelasgos, but, by my count, this gives us only up to ten generations between them, with twelve if we added both Niobe and Alkmene themselves to the number.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Phoroneus had a sister named `Io`, by whom Zeus had a son Epaphos [Epaphus], who grew up to become king of Egypt. He was also an ancestor of Alkmene and Herakles. Even if we were to count &quot;indirect descent&quot; from Niobe to Alkmene through Epaphos, since he was Niobe's cousin, we still get only up to something like thirteen or fourteen generations at absolute maximum.&lt;/sub&gt;    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/dYQ4b.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18827" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5628" RevisionGUID="55aedbf4-4a69-4c53-8318-4b03c5accc79" CreationDate="2019-05-10T05:14:18.390" UserId="2682" Comment="tweaked some details &amp; added some info" Text="**Argos** (and his brother **Pelasgos**)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Apollodorus, Hyginus, and Diodorus Siculus, the first mortal consort of Zeus was a princess named **Niobe, daughter of Phoroneus**. (*This* Niobe is not to be confused with the tragic, younger and more famous one, who was the daughter of the Lydian king Tantalos [Tantalus]. The Lydian Niobe lived about eight generations after the one in question here.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Long ago the city of Argos had a different name. It had been founded in prehistoric times by the god Inakhos [Inachus], one of the thousands of sons of the Titan Okeanos [Oceanus]. These sons were the rivers of the world, and Inakhos founded a city upon his own body, the River Inakhos, and named the city Inakhos, after himself, also installing himself as its first king and priest. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Inakhos married his own sister Melia, and together they had a son named Phoroneus, who, when he had grown up, Inakhos placed upon the throne in his own stead. Phoroneus renamed the city Phoroneia, after himself. After the Flood in which Zeus sought to destroy humankind, Phoroneus is credited with discovering fire, teaching people to live in cities again and being the first to offer sacrifices to Hera in his city. This Flood, however, would only come in the time of his great-grandchildren, into which time he still lived. More on that below. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Phoroneus had various children, including a son named Apis and a daughter called Niobe. The city of Phoroneia was located on the vast peninsula of southern Greece, and Phoroneus placed this whole peninsula under the rule of Apis, who named the land Apia after himself. Centuries later it was renamed Peloponnesos (by Pelops son of Tantalos, and therefore brother of that *other* Niobe.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meanwhile Apis's sister Niobe became the first mortal woman to be bedded by Zeus, and they had at least one son, called **Argos** [Latinised as *Argus*]. After Apis died Argos became king of Apia, which he renamed Argos after himself. Argos then became the name of both the entire peninsula as well as of the city of Argos which previously was Phoroneia, and prior to that, Inakhos. While the peninsula was later renamed Peloponnesos (when Pelops conquered it), Argos remains the name of the city to this day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Argos on Peloponnesos Map][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus and Niobe also had another son, named **Pelasgos** [Pelasgus]. Argos features way more prominently in connection with their native city so perhaps he was older but we are otherwise not furnished with such information. They could also have been twins. At any rate Pelasgos is alternately said to have been an Autokhthon (born directly out of the Earth).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He was the first king of Pelasgia, a large region of the Apia/Argos/Peloponnesos peninsula, which, true to family tradition, he had named after himself. He was the father of the notoriously impious Lykaon [Lycaon], whom Zeus turned into a wolf. Zeus also consorted with Lykaon's daughter Kallisto ([Callisto] who was therefore Zeus's own great-granddaughter). It was during Lykaon's reign over Pelasgia that Zeus flooded the Earth, and afterwards Arkas [Arcas], the son of Zeus and Kallisto, became king of Pelasgia, which he renamed Arkadia [Arcadia].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like his grandfather Phoroneus, Pelasgos was renowned for early innovations for basic living, inventing the first huts for shelter from the elements, as well as sheepskin garments the style of which the poor in Euboia [Euboea] and Phokis [Phocis] would later still be wearing. He discovered edible acorns, and he taught people to abstain from green leaves, grasses and roots that were not good to eat, particularly the fatally poisonous ones.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the 1st and 2nd sections of *Bibliotheka* [Library] 2.1, Apollodorus says that:    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Argos was the son of Niobe and Zeus (she was the first mortal woman with whom he had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; intercourse). According to Akousilaos, Pelasgos was also their son, and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; inhabitants of Peloponnesos were called Pelasgoi [*Pelasgians*] after him. But&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hesiod says that Pelasgos was an Authokhthon [*&quot;a son of the soil&quot;*]... &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Argos received the kingdom and called Peloponnesos after himself&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Argos; and having married Evadne, daughter of Strymon and Neaira, he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; begat Ekbasos, Peiras, Epidauros, and Kriasos, the last one of these being the  successor to the kingdom.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyginus, writing in Latin, uses the Roman names of the gods and other characters, saying, in *Fabulae* 145:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; From Phoroneus and Cinna were born Apis and Niobe. The latter was the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; first mortal to be embraced by Jupiter [*Zeus*]. She gave birth to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Argus, who gave his name to the city of Argos. Argus and Evadne had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; three children: Criasus, Piranthus and Ecbasus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Diodorus Siculus tells us that the *last* mortal woman with whom Zeus consorted was Alkmene [Alcmene], upon whom he fathered the great hero Herakles [Heracles]. He notes the phenomenon that Alkmene was herself a descendant of Niobe in his *Bibliotheka Historika* [Library of History] 4.14.4. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The first mortal woman... with whom Zeus lay was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Niobe, the daughter of Phoroneus, and the last was Alkmene, who, as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mythographers state in their genealogies, was the sixteenth lineal&#xD;&#xA;&gt; descendant from Niobe. It appears, then, that Zeus began to beget&#xD;&#xA;&gt; human beings with the ancestors of this Alkmene and ceased with her;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that is, he stopped with her his intercourse with mortal women, since&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he had no hope that he would beget in after times one who would be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; worthy of his former children and was unwilling to have the better&#xD;&#xA;&gt; followed by the worse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;**Genealogical Sidenotes**&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Nearly a thousand years after the time Alkmene would have lived, however, there was quite a bit of propaganda promoting the notion that Alexandros III of Makedonia, better known in English as Alexander the Great, was the son of Zeus by a mortal queen.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;I am unable to figure out where Diodorus's &quot;mythographers&quot; get their sixteen generations between Niobe and Alkmene. There is indeed a version of her genealogy in which Alkmene is descended from Niobe, through Mantineus son of Lykaon, son of Pelasgos, but, by my count, this gives us only up to ten generations between them, with twelve if we added both Niobe and Alkmene themselves to the number.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Phoroneus had a sister named `Io`, by whom Zeus had a son Epaphos [Epaphus], who grew up to become king of Egypt. He was also an ancestor of Alkmene and Herakles. Even if we were to count &quot;indirect descent&quot; from Niobe to Alkmene through Epaphos, since he was Niobe's cousin, we still get only up to something like thirteen or fourteen generations at absolute maximum.&lt;/sub&gt;    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/dYQ4b.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18829" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="5503" RevisionGUID="0af6f61f-8181-4e94-8440-1a4b23257f0f" CreationDate="2019-05-10T13:02:11.030" UserId="-1" Comment="84" />
  <row Id="18830" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5543" RevisionGUID="e01237fd-e5c9-4b3a-85b3-527cc2bde7a2" CreationDate="2019-05-10T18:11:37.350" UserId="2682" Comment="tweaked some details" Text="Two modern scholars, in their analyses of this obscure reference to the character in question, both point out a certain apocryphal connection between Eurymedon and Hera. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his 1993 book *Early Greek Myth: A Guide to Literary and Artistic Sources*, Timothy Gantz discusses (on p. 57) Scholion Ab for *Iliad* 14.295-296, which he tells us is &quot;credited to Euphorion&quot;, as well as part of Scholion T. The story told in these scholia &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; suggests that Hera, while in the house of her parents, was raped by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eurymedon (one of the Gigantes) and bore Prometheus, to whom Zeus was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thus understandably hostile.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;(In this section of the same chapter, Gantz contends with the potential chronological issues involved in having this event transpire in Hera's parents' house, considering the other much better known story that renders Hera undoubtedly unavailable for this piece of drama because she would have been trapped inside her father's belly at the time.)&lt;/sub&gt;     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Robin Hard, writing in *The Routledge Handbook of Greek Mythology: Based on H.J. Rose's &quot;Handbook of Greek Mythology&quot;* (2004: 88), &quot;Homer alludes to Gigantes on three occasions in the *Odyssey*.&quot; In the third instance thereof,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; we are told that a certain Eurymedon once ruled over the over-bearing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Giants but brought destruction on himself and his people (in unstated&#xD;&#xA;&gt; circumstances). There is no reason to suppose that the latter story&#xD;&#xA;&gt; has anything to do with a revolt against the gods... According to a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tale ascribed to the Hellenistic poet Euphorion, Hera was raped by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Giant Eurymedon while she was still living at home with her parents&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and bore to him Prometheus as a son. When Zeus came to learn of this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after marrying her, he hurled Eurymedon down to Tartaros and ordered&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that Prometheus should be thrown into chains, using his theft of fire&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as a pretext. The obscure reference to Erymedon (*sic*) in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Odyssey* must have inspired the invention of this revisionist myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When I first read about the Giant Eurymedon I assumed that his story was the same as that of the Gigantomachy, or at least closely connected to it in some way. Aaron Atsma of The Theoi Project website seems to have arrived at the same conclusion, saying that Eurymedon &quot;was probably the same as Alkyoneus or Porphyrion who are named as the king of the Gigantes by other writers.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have found no ancient reference to Alkyoneus [Alcyoneus] as any kind of king, although he does seem to have been a special sort of champion among the Gigantes, bearing the unique invincibility of bouncing back from death upon being slain on his home turf. He is similar to his half-brother the giant Antaios [Antaeus] in this, except that Alkyoneus had to be dragged across the border of his land in order to put a decisive end to this uncanny power of resuscitation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most direct link between Eurymedon and Alkyoneus is that both are said to have had a number of daughters, an unspecified number in the former's case while Alkyoneus is credited with seven. None of Alkyoneus' offspring, however, is named Periboia [Periboea], as is Eurymedon's youngest, thus making that link more tenuous.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the case of Porphyrion, Pindar does explicitly call him &quot;king of the Gigantes&quot;. Apollodorus, in his account of the Gigantomachy, relates the somewhat bizarre stratagem employed by Zeus in the fight against his enemy leader.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Porphyrion rushed against Herakles [Heracles] and also Hera. Zeus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; instilled him with a passion for Hera, and when he tore her gown and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wanted to rape her, she called for help, whereat Zeus hit him with a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thunderbolt and Herakles slew him with an arrow.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The coincidences of details between the narratives of Eurymedon and Porphyrion warrant the raising of at least one eyebrow, I would say: each one is a Giant king who is said to come to a bad end after violating Hera (or attempting to do so), with Zeus playing a major role in either story. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, the introduction to your Question might allow that Eurymedon is merely a title rather than a proper name, perhaps for King Porphyrion &quot;Who Rules Far and Wide.&quot; Eurymedon is after all an epithet of the hero Perseus as well as the gods Poseidon and Hermes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An ancient work called the *Recognitions* is (apparently dubiously) ascribed to Clement of Alexandria, who would have written in Greek. However the *Recognitions* survives presently only in Latin translation, and in its 10th book, Jupiter (i.e. Zeus) is said to have had a son named Coron [Koron?] by Leandia [Leandeia?], &quot;the daughter of Eurymedon&quot;. It's a pet speculation of mine that this is the Giant Eurymedon and thus that Leand[e]ia is one of the *Odyssey*'s unnamed sisters of Periboia.   " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18832" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5627" RevisionGUID="c9830d23-20f1-42ac-b1ca-2e2d8b4f34a3" CreationDate="2019-05-10T21:53:58.737" UserId="2892" Comment="added 984 characters in body" Text="I'm going to propose:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Minos, King of Crete][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason is that he is a contemporary of Theseus' father, [King Aegeus][2], and Theseus was in the first generation of heroes, which includes Herakles, who predate the heroes of the Trojan war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Minos, along with Rhadamanthus and Sarpedon, is a child of [Europa][3], a Phoenician princess and great, great granddaughter of [Io][4].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Phoenician civilization pre-dates Greek civilization, and the Ancient Greek language comes out of the Mycenaean [Linear B][5], which itself derives from the Minoan [Linear A][6], a language associated with Minoan Culture, which likely dominated Greece before the Mycenaean civilization which includes [early Argos][7].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;*Problems with this Theory: Sarpendon fought at Troy, and although time doesn't have to make strict sense in Greek mythology, the genealogy mentioned by Adrinka suggests Argus, founder of Argos, was earlier.*  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minos&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegeus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(consort_of_Zeus)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Io_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_B&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_A&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/5628/2892" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18833" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5629" RevisionGUID="26054ce0-0fbe-4e14-a056-06cf0feb44d2" CreationDate="2019-05-10T22:22:05.933" UserId="2682" Text="Yes, she did know.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are at least two ancient sources which make this explicit, the first being Nonnus' *Dionysiaca*, which places the reign of Perseus in Argolis during the time that Perseus' half-brother the wine-god Dionysus is concluding his epic tour of Greece. At the end of Dionysus' itinerary is the region of Argolis, one of whose major cities is Argos, partly ruled over by Perseus' relative Melampus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Argos is famously known as a city dedicated to Hera. Centuries before Perseus and Dionysus were born Poseidon and Hera had contended strongly over who should become the city's patron deity, and Perseus' ancestors had granted Hera this honour. In *Dionysiaca* 47, by the time that Dionysus comes with his campaign entourage to Argos, the notoriety of Hera's hatred of him is so widespread that the Argives are fearful of a reprisal from their goddess if they receive this enemy stepson of hers. The citizens therefore turn Dionysus' army away from their home, which then provokes a retaliation by Dionysus, who induces madness in the city's women so that they start to butcher their own children.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This in turn attracts Hera's attention, who swoops to the aid of her city by disguising herself as Melampus and, in this form, goading Perseus into defending Argos against Dionysus' attack. In the fight that ensues, Dionysus' new bride Ariadne gets turned to stone by Perseus, who achieves this by using the deadly head of the slain Gorgon Medusa. An enraged Dionysus is then ready to destroy the city as well as other parts of Argolis, threatening to annihilate the land's inhabitants, at which point another half-brother, the messenger-god Hermes, appears behind him and convinces him to cease fighting, explaining that Hera, who is involved in the battle, possesses the power to defeat him.      &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; With Hermes' help, Dionysus and Perseus afterwards become friends&#xD;&#xA;&gt; while the real Melampus establishes the cult of Dionysus in Argolis.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The wine-god then moves on from there to Thrace to conclude his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; adventures in the final book of the *Dionysiaca*.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;~ *from [my Answer to another Question*](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/4730/2682)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the speech in which the disguised Hera uses to stir Perseus up in defense against Dionysus, she references the conception of Perseus by his mother Danae, urging Perseus to: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; remember the bronze vault which was Danae's chamber, where Rainy Zeus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; poured into her bosom a shower of bride-stealing gold—let not Danae,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after that bed, after the wedding of gold, bend a slavish knee to that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; nobody Dionysus. Show that you have in you the true blood of Cronion&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [*Zeus*], show that you have in you the golden breed, proclaim the bed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that received that snowstorm of heavenly riches... Why do you tremble&#xD;&#xA;&gt; before Dionysus, no offspring of the bed of Zeus?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The play *Hercules Furens*, by the Roman writer Seneca, opens with Juno (the Roman Hera) listing a number of her husband's indiscretions with other women and how different aspects of these illicit unions are celebrated across the sky itself in the form of constellations. In the case of the Gorgon-slaying hero, after his death, Zeus made him into the constellation Perseus. Juno refers to the women in her catalogue here as harlots, thus having a much less flattering perspective than the one presented by Nonnus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first of our sources above is describing the last known adventure of Perseus before he settles down to family life and siring quite a few kids. The second source describes a scene occurring a few generations after Perseus is dead. It is perhaps not impossible that Hera only learned of Perseus' paternity later in his lifetime. In Perseus's *Dionysiaca* cameo, Hera seems quite happy to have her Gorgon-slaying stepchild as a lord of her favoured urban location.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If Hera does in fact know from earlier on that Perseus is her stepson, my other guess is that she does not bother harassing him or his mother because they are not special favourites of Zeus in the same way the ones you mention in your Question are. Heracles, Dionysus and Leto's children are perhaps the topmost favourite children of Zeus of all time (with the exception of the ancient horned god Zagreus). Perseus and his mother, on the other hand, receive no particular attention from Zeus that I am aware of.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Perseus was born his grandfather Acrisius put him and his mother in a wooden chest which he cast into the sea in the hope of killing the newborn boy. This episode is the single direct interaction that I have found between Zeus and Perseus after the latter's conception and before the hero's being made into a constellation after his death. Hyginus tells us that Zeus caused the seaborne chest to be carried to the island of Seriphos, where Perseus grew up in obscurity, living together with his mother and the poor fisherman who found them when their box arrived upon his shore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whether Zeus simply cared so little for them or he was trying to hide them from Hera or Acrisius, we are not told. In at least one instance of Zeus siring his dozens of children he is such a deadbeat dad that one is left to wonder whether he was even aware this offspring existed. Some of his children are obscure enough for this to plausibly have been the case with them in general. There's also a handful of his children with whom Zeus shares a hostile relationship (one of these is killed by Zeus himself). Perhaps with Perseus he was indifferent for a good chunk of the hero's life. The *Iliad*, though, does have Zeus boasting to Hera, during the Trojan War (generations after Perseus' death), that his son Perseus was the &quot;greatest of warriors&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whatever Hera's reason for not persecuting Perseus and Danae is, she was certainly aware, at least by some point prior to Dionysus' Argos début, that Perseus was her stepson. Among Zeus' love affairs and illegitimate offspring, however, Perseus and Danae are not unique in remaining unmolested by the queen of the gods, neither is Perseus the only stepchild of hers with whom she found occasion to team up against a mutual opponent." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18834" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5629" RevisionGUID="6a49cdcc-30e2-4561-acab-0fb8c4370e4d" CreationDate="2019-05-11T00:40:42.810" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="Yes, she did know.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are at least two ancient sources which make this explicit, the first being Nonnus' *Dionysiaca*, which places the reign of Perseus in Argolis during the time that Perseus' half-brother the wine-god Dionysus is concluding his epic tour of Greece. At the end of Dionysus' itinerary is the region of Argolis, one of whose major cities is Argos, partly ruled over by Perseus' relative Melampus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Argos is famously known as a city dedicated to Hera. Centuries before Perseus and Dionysus were born Poseidon and Hera had contended strongly over who should become the city's patron deity, and Perseus' ancestors had granted Hera this honour. In *Dionysiaca* 47, by the time that Dionysus comes with his campaign entourage to Argos, the notoriety of Hera's hatred of him is so widespread that the Argives are fearful of a reprisal from their goddess if they receive this enemy stepson of hers. The citizens therefore turn Dionysus' army away from their home, which then provokes a retaliation by Dionysus, who induces madness in the city's women so that they start to butcher their own children.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This in turn attracts Hera's attention, who swoops to the aid of her city by disguising herself as Melampus and, in this form, goading Perseus into defending Argos against Dionysus' attack. In the fight that ensues, Dionysus' new bride Ariadne gets turned to stone by Perseus, who achieves this by using the deadly head of the slain Gorgon Medusa. An enraged Dionysus is then ready to destroy the city as well as other parts of Argolis, threatening to annihilate the land's inhabitants, at which point another half-brother, the messenger-god Hermes, appears behind him and convinces him to cease fighting, explaining that Hera, who is involved in the battle, possesses the power to defeat him.      &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; With Hermes' help, Dionysus and Perseus afterwards become friends&#xD;&#xA;&gt; while the real Melampus establishes the cult of Dionysus in Argolis.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The wine-god then moves on from there to Thrace to conclude his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; adventures in the final book of the *Dionysiaca*.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;~ *from [my Answer to another Question*](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/4730/2682)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the speech used by the disguised Hera to stir Perseus up in defense against Dionysus, she references the conception of Perseus by his mother Danae, urging Perseus to: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; remember the bronze vault which was Danae's chamber, where Rainy Zeus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; poured into her bosom a shower of bride-stealing gold—let not Danae,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after that bed, after the wedding of gold, bend a slavish knee to that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; nobody Dionysus. Show that you have in you the true blood of Cronion&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [*Zeus*], show that you have in you the golden breed, proclaim the bed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that received that snowstorm of heavenly riches... Why do you tremble&#xD;&#xA;&gt; before Dionysus, no offspring of the bed of Zeus?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The play *Hercules Furens*, by the Roman writer Seneca, opens with Juno (the Roman Hera) listing a number of her husband's indiscretions with other women and how different aspects of these illicit unions are celebrated across the sky itself in the form of constellations. In the case of the Gorgon-slaying hero, after his death, Zeus made him into the constellation Perseus. Juno refers to the women in her catalogue here as harlots, thus having a much less flattering perspective than the one presented by Nonnus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first of our sources above is describing the last known adventure of Perseus before he settles down to family life and has quite a few kids. The second source describes a scene occurring a few generations after Perseus is dead. It is perhaps not impossible that Hera only learned of Perseus' paternity later in his lifetime. In Perseus's *Dionysiaca* cameo, Hera seems quite happy to have her Gorgon-slaying stepchild as a lord of her favoured urban location.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If Hera does in fact know from earlier on that Perseus is her stepson, my other guess is that she does not bother harassing him or his mother because they are not special favourites of Zeus in the same way the ones you mention in your Question are. Leto's twins, and Dionysus, and Heracles are perhaps the topmost favourite children of Zeus of all time (with the exception of the ancient horned god Zagreus). Perseus and his mother, on the other hand, receive no particular attention from Zeus that I am aware of.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Perseus was born his grandfather Acrisius put him and his mother in a wooden chest which he cast into the sea in the hope of killing the newborn boy. This episode is the single direct interaction that I have found between Zeus and Perseus after the latter's conception and before the hero's being made into a constellation after his death. Hyginus tells us that Zeus caused the seaborne chest to be carried to the island of Seriphos, where Perseus grew up in obscurity, living together with his mother and the poor fisherman who found them when their box arrived upon his shore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whether Zeus simply cared so little for them or he was trying to hide them from Hera or Acrisius, we are not told. In at least one instance of Zeus siring his dozens of children he is such a deadbeat dad that one is left to wonder whether he was even aware this offspring existed. Some of his children are obscure enough for this to plausibly have been the case with them in general. There's also a handful of his children with whom Zeus shares a hostile relationship (one of these is killed by Zeus himself). Perhaps towards Perseus he was fairly indifferent for a good chunk of the hero's life. The *Iliad*, though, does have Zeus boasting to Hera, during the Trojan War (generations after Perseus' death), that his son Perseus was the &quot;greatest of warriors&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whatever Hera's reason for not persecuting Perseus and Danae is, she was certainly aware, at least by some point prior to Dionysus' Argos début, that Perseus was her stepson. Among Zeus' love affairs and illegitimate offspring, however, Perseus and Danae are not unique in remaining unmolested by the queen of the gods, neither is Perseus the only stepchild of hers with whom she found occasion to team up against a mutual opponent." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18835" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5628" RevisionGUID="92f04323-007d-426e-b756-54dbc9261dbd" CreationDate="2019-05-11T04:28:13.373" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected spelling, fixed grammar &amp; tweaked some details" Text="**Argos** (and his brother **Pelasgos**)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Apollodorus, Hyginus, and Diodorus Siculus, the first mortal consort of Zeus was a princess named **Niobe, daughter of Phoroneus**. (*This* Niobe is not to be confused with the more famous tragic one who was the daughter of the Lydian king Tantalos [Tantalus]. The Lydian Niobe lived about eight generations after the one in question here.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Long ago the city of Argos had a different name. It had been founded in prehistoric times by the god Inakhos [Inachus], one of the thousands of sons of the Titan Okeanos [Oceanus]. These sons were the rivers of the world, and Inakhos founded a city upon his own body, the River Inakhos, and named the city Inakhos, after himself, also installing himself as its first king and priest. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Inakhos married his own sister Melia, and together they had a son named Phoroneus, who, when he had grown up, Inakhos placed upon the throne in his own stead. Phoroneus renamed the city Phoroneia, after himself. After the Flood in which Zeus sought to destroy humankind, Phoroneus is credited with discovering fire, teaching people to live in cities again and being the first to offer sacrifices to Hera in his city. This Flood, however, would only come in the time of his great-grandchildren, into which time he was still an active leader. More on that below. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Phoroneus had several children, including a son named Apis and a daughter called Niobe. The city of Phoroneia was located on the vast peninsula of southern Greece, and Phoroneus placed this whole peninsula under the rule of Apis, who named the land Apia after himself. Centuries later it was renamed Peloponnesos (by Pelops son of Tantalos, and therefore brother of that *other* Niobe.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meanwhile Apis's sister Niobe became the first mortal woman to be bedded by Zeus, and they had at least one son, called **Argos** [Latinised as *Argus*]. After Apis died Argos became king of Apia, which he renamed Argos after himself. Argos then became the name of both the entire peninsula as well as of the city of Argos which previously was Phoroneia, and prior to that, Inakhos. While the peninsula was later renamed Peloponnesos (when Pelops conquered it), Argos remains the name of the city to this day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Argos on Peloponnesos Map][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus and Niobe also had another son, named **Pelasgos** [Pelasgus]. Argos features way more prominently in connection with their ancestral city so perhaps he was older but we are otherwise not furnished with such information. They could also have been twins. At any rate Pelasgos is alternately said to have been an Autokhthon (born directly out of the Earth).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He was the first king of Pelasgia, a large region of the Apia/Argos/Peloponnesos peninsula, which, true to family tradition, he had named after himself. He was the father of the notoriously impious Lykaon [Lycaon], whom Zeus turned into a wolf. Zeus also consorted with Lykaon's daughter Kallisto ([Callisto] who was therefore Zeus's own great-granddaughter). It was during Lykaon's reign over Pelasgia that Zeus flooded the Earth, and afterwards Arkas [Arcas], the son of Zeus and Kallisto, became king of Pelasgia, which he renamed Arkadia [Arcadia].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like his grandfather Phoroneus, Pelasgos was renowned for early innovations for basic living, inventing the first huts for shelter from the elements, as well as sheepskin garments the style of which the poor in Euboia [Euboea] and Phokis [Phocis] would later still be wearing. He discovered edible acorns, and he taught people to abstain from green leaves, grasses and roots that were not good to eat, particularly the fatally poisonous ones.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the first two sections of *Bibliotheka* [Library] 2.1, Apollodorus says that:    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Argos was the son of Niobe and Zeus (she was the first mortal woman with whom he had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; intercourse). According to Akousilaos, Pelasgos was also their son, and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; inhabitants of Peloponnesos were called Pelasgoi [*Pelasgians*] after him. But&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hesiod says that Pelasgos was an Autokhthon [*&quot;a son of the soil&quot;*]... &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Argos received the kingdom and called Peloponnesos after himself&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Argos; and having married Evadne, daughter of Strymon and Neaira, he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; begat Ekbasos, Peiras, Epidauros, and Kriasos, the last one of these being the  successor to the kingdom.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyginus, writing in Latin, uses the Roman names of the gods and other characters, saying, in *Fabulae* 145:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; From Phoroneus and Cinna were born Apis and Niobe. The latter was the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; first mortal to be embraced by Jupiter [*Zeus*]. She gave birth to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Argus, who gave his name to the city of Argos. Argus and Evadne had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; three children: Criasus, Piranthus and Ecbasus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Diodorus Siculus tells us that the *last* mortal woman with whom Zeus consorted was Alkmene [Alcmene], upon whom he sired the great hero Herakles [Heracles]. He notes the phenomenon that Alkmene was herself a descendant of Niobe in his *Bibliotheka Historika* [Library of History] 4.14.4. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The first mortal woman... with whom Zeus lay was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Niobe, the daughter of Phoroneus, and the last was Alkmene, who, as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mythographers state in their genealogies, was the sixteenth lineal&#xD;&#xA;&gt; descendant from Niobe. It appears, then, that Zeus began to beget&#xD;&#xA;&gt; human beings with the ancestors of this Alkmene and ceased with her;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that is, he stopped with her his intercourse with mortal women, since&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he had no hope that he would beget in after times one who would be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; worthy of his former children and was unwilling to have the better&#xD;&#xA;&gt; followed by the worse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;**Genealogical Sidenotes**&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Nearly a thousand years after the time Alkmene would have lived, however, there was quite a bit of propaganda promoting the notion that Alexandros III of Makedonia, better known in English as Alexander the Great, was the son of Zeus by a mortal queen.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;I am unable to figure out where Diodorus's &quot;mythographers&quot; get their sixteen generations between Niobe and Alkmene. There is indeed a version of her genealogy in which Alkmene is descended from Niobe, through Mantineus son of Lykaon, son of Pelasgos, but, by my count, this gives us only up to ten generations between them, with twelve if we added both Niobe and Alkmene themselves to the number.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Phoroneus had a sister named `Io`, by whom Zeus had a son Epaphos [Epaphus], who grew up to become king of Egypt. He was also an ancestor of Alkmene and Herakles. Even if we were to count &quot;indirect descent&quot; from Niobe to Alkmene through Epaphos, since he was Niobe's cousin, we still get only up to something like thirteen or fourteen generations at absolute maximum.&lt;/sub&gt;    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/dYQ4b.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18836" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5630" RevisionGUID="5a6df28f-f47b-4577-b001-57a747abad24" CreationDate="2019-05-11T11:40:21.763" UserId="6043" Text="Something you should know about english (i am born Crotian) languge its pronouncing bs &#xD;&#xA;many languges pronouncing  c like letter should use Herakles like greek pronouncing&#xD;&#xA;try pronounce c - orn not c like k try c like c .....&#xD;&#xA; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18837" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5631" RevisionGUID="55e2b3b4-e458-45bf-8a42-88e771113401" CreationDate="2019-05-11T13:57:50.247" UserId="6044" Text="Do all greek gods and goddesses live on Mount Olympus? Including minors like Echo, Narcissus, etc.?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18838" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5631" RevisionGUID="55e2b3b4-e458-45bf-8a42-88e771113401" CreationDate="2019-05-11T13:57:50.247" UserId="6044" Text="Do all gods and goddesses live on mount olympus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18839" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5631" RevisionGUID="55e2b3b4-e458-45bf-8a42-88e771113401" CreationDate="2019-05-11T13:57:50.247" UserId="6044" Text="|greek|olympians|olympus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18840" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5629" RevisionGUID="5deaab2d-6c52-49ff-9ce1-356938b4566d" CreationDate="2019-05-11T15:13:18.753" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="Yes, she did know.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are at least two ancient sources which make this explicit, the first being Nonnus' *Dionysiaca*, which places the reign of Perseus in Argolis during the time that Perseus' half-brother the wine-god Dionysus is concluding his epic tour of Greece. At the end of Dionysus' itinerary is the region of Argolis, one of whose major cities is Argos, partly ruled over by Perseus' relative Melampus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Argos is famously known as a city dedicated to Hera. Centuries before Perseus and Dionysus were born Poseidon and Hera had contended strongly over who, between the two of them, should become the city's patron deity, and Perseus' ancestors had granted Hera this honour. In *Dionysiaca* 47, by the time that Dionysus comes with his campaign entourage to Argos, the notoriety of Hera's hatred of him is so widespread that the Argives are fearful of a reprisal from their goddess if they receive this enemy stepson of hers. The citizens therefore turn Dionysus' army away from their home, which then provokes a retaliation by Dionysus, who induces madness in the city's women so that they start to butcher their own children.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This in turn attracts Hera's attention, who swoops to the aid of her city by disguising herself as Melampus and, in this form, goading Perseus into defending Argos against Dionysus' attack. In the fight that ensues, Dionysus' new bride Ariadne gets turned to stone by Perseus, who achieves this by using the deadly head of the slain Gorgon Medusa. An enraged Dionysus is then ready to destroy the city as well as other parts of Argolis, threatening to annihilate the land's inhabitants, at which point another half-brother, the messenger-god Hermes, appears behind him and convinces him to cease fighting, explaining that Hera, who is involved in the battle, possesses the power to defeat him.      &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; With Hermes' help, Dionysus and Perseus afterwards become friends&#xD;&#xA;&gt; while the real Melampus establishes the cult of Dionysus in Argolis.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The wine-god then moves on from there to Thrace to conclude his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; adventures in the final book of the *Dionysiaca*.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;~ *from [my Answer to another Question*](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/4730/2682)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the speech used by the disguised Hera to stir Perseus up in defense against Dionysus, she references the conception of Perseus by his mother Danae, urging Perseus to: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; remember the bronze vault which was Danae's chamber, where Rainy Zeus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; poured into her bosom a shower of bride-stealing gold—let not Danae,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after that bed, after the wedding of gold, bend a slavish knee to that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; nobody Dionysus. Show that you have in you the true blood of Cronion&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [*Zeus*], show that you have in you the golden breed, proclaim the bed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that received that snowstorm of heavenly riches... Why do you tremble&#xD;&#xA;&gt; before Dionysus, no offspring of the bed of Zeus?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The play *Hercules Furens*, by the Roman writer Seneca, opens with Juno (the Roman Hera) listing a number of her husband's indiscretions with other women and how different aspects of these illicit unions are celebrated across the sky itself in the form of constellations. In the case of the Gorgon-slaying hero, after his death, Zeus made him into the constellation Perseus. Juno refers to the women in her catalogue here as harlots, bearing a clearly much less flattering perspective than the one presented by Nonnus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first of our sources above is describing the last known adventure of Perseus before he settles down to family life and has quite a few kids. The second source describes a scene occurring a few generations after Perseus is dead. It is perhaps not impossible that Hera only learned of Perseus' paternity later in his lifetime. In Perseus's *Dionysiaca* cameo, Hera seems quite happy to have her Gorgon-slaying stepchild as a lord of her favoured urban location.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If Hera does in fact know from earlier on that Perseus is her stepson, my other guess is that she does not bother harassing him or his mother because they are not special favourites of Zeus in the same way the ones you mention in your Question are. Leto's twins, and Dionysus, and Heracles are perhaps the topmost favourite children of Zeus of all time (with the exception of the ancient horned god Zagreus). Perseus and his mother, on the other hand, receive no particular attention from Zeus that I am aware of.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Perseus was born his grandfather Acrisius put him and his mother in a wooden chest which he cast into the sea in the hope of killing the newborn boy. This episode is the single direct interaction that I have found between Zeus and Perseus after the latter's conception and before the hero's being made into a constellation after his death. Hyginus tells us that Zeus caused the seaborne chest to be carried to the island of Seriphos, where Perseus grew up in obscurity, living together with his mother and the poor fisherman who found them when their box arrived upon his shore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whether Zeus simply cared so little for them or he was trying to hide them from Hera or Acrisius, we are not told. In at least one instance of Zeus siring his dozens of children he was such a deadbeat dad that one is left to wonder whether he was even aware this offspring existed. Some of his children are obscure enough for this to plausibly have been the case with them in general. There's also a handful of his children with whom Zeus shares a hostile relationship (one of these is killed by Zeus himself). Perhaps towards Perseus he was fairly indifferent for a good chunk of the hero's life. The *Iliad*, though, does have Zeus boasting to Hera, during the Trojan War (generations after Perseus' death), that his son Perseus was the &quot;greatest of warriors&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whatever Hera's reason for not persecuting Perseus and Danae is, she was certainly aware, at least by some point prior to Dionysus' Argos début, that Perseus was her stepson. Among Zeus' love affairs and illegitimate offspring, however, Perseus and Danae are not unique in remaining unmolested by the queen of the gods, neither is Perseus the only stepchild of hers with whom Hera found occasion to team up against a mutual opponent." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18841" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5631" RevisionGUID="e6870374-7dc4-4101-8b13-d42f38ee041b" CreationDate="2019-05-11T15:43:19.700" UserId="57" Comment="added 4 characters in body; edited title" Text="Do all Greek gods and goddesses live on Mount Olympus? Including minor ones like Echo, Narcissus, etc.?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18842" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5631" RevisionGUID="e6870374-7dc4-4101-8b13-d42f38ee041b" CreationDate="2019-05-11T15:43:19.700" UserId="57" Comment="added 4 characters in body; edited title" Text="Do all gods and goddesses live on Mount Οlympus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18843" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5632" RevisionGUID="021b3548-75b6-4d6d-92d4-6c7f2d5f817e" CreationDate="2019-05-11T15:46:59.387" UserId="57" Text="**No.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Hades][1], a major god of the Greek pantheon, prefers his own domain, the [underworld][2], to Olympus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_underworld" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18844" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5632" RevisionGUID="967fa1a4-3b12-463b-8e23-898a35fc4205" CreationDate="2019-05-11T15:52:13.950" UserId="57" Comment="added 93 characters in body" Text="**No.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both [Hades][1] and [Poseidon][2], Zeus's brothers, prefer their own domains to Olympus. Hades lives in the [underworld][3] and Poseidon in the ocean.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further reading: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/511/57&#xD;&#xA;- https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1986/who-lives-in-mount-olympus-usually&#xD;&#xA;- https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/496/when-did-hades-leave-the-underworld&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poseidon&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_underworld" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18845" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5632" RevisionGUID="861fc5a4-9e4b-4891-af25-1a1051d031ae" CreationDate="2019-05-11T15:59:10.803" UserId="57" Comment="added 93 characters in body" Text="**No.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both Hades and Poseidon, Zeus's brothers, prefer their own domains to Olympus. Hades lives in the [underworld][3] and Poseidon in the ocean.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hephaestus, another one of the *dodekatheon*, lived in Lemnos island after [Hera ejected him from Olympus][5].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further reading: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/511/57&#xD;&#xA;- https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1986/who-lives-in-mount-olympus-usually&#xD;&#xA;- https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/496/when-did-hades-leave-the-underworld&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_underworld&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hephaestus#Fall_from_Olympus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18846" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5632" RevisionGUID="b25ffb88-9546-43a4-a5de-cbdd61047bf9" CreationDate="2019-05-11T16:04:15.943" UserId="57" Comment="added 93 characters in body" Text="**No.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both Hades and Poseidon, Zeus's brothers, prefer their own domains to Olympus. Hades lives in the [underworld][1] and Poseidon in the ocean.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hephaestus, another one of the *dodekatheon*, lived on Lemnos island after [Hera ejected him from Olympus][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Minor gods could also live elsewhere. One example is Circe who lives on the mythical island [Aeaea][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further reading: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/511/57&#xD;&#xA;- https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1986/who-lives-in-mount-olympus-usually&#xD;&#xA;- https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/496/when-did-hades-leave-the-underworld&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_underworld&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hephaestus#Fall_from_Olympus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeaea" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18847" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5633" RevisionGUID="db9c383a-668d-4474-b347-f6200c80d26f" CreationDate="2019-05-11T16:17:54.007" UserId="6045" Text="Most mythologies that I read are used to justify the power structures in society. Are there any that instead preach democracy, anti-authority, pro-education, or free love?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18848" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5633" RevisionGUID="db9c383a-668d-4474-b347-f6200c80d26f" CreationDate="2019-05-11T16:17:54.007" UserId="6045" Text="Are there any stories or fables in mythology that have an Anarchist message?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18849" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5633" RevisionGUID="db9c383a-668d-4474-b347-f6200c80d26f" CreationDate="2019-05-11T16:17:54.007" UserId="6045" Text="|comparative|symbolism|interpretation|concepts|motifs|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18850" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5632" RevisionGUID="678ce35d-a735-4fa3-95a0-4a588120e2d7" CreationDate="2019-05-11T21:45:26.860" UserId="57" Comment="added 84 characters in body" Text="**No.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both Hades and Poseidon, Zeus's brothers, prefer their own domains to Olympus. Hades lives in the [underworld][1] and Poseidon in the sea, near Euboea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hephaestus, another one of the *dodekatheon*, lived on Lemnos island after [Hera ejected him from Olympus][2]. In Thracian mythology, Ares prefered Mount Haimos in Thrace to Olympus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Minor gods could also live elsewhere. One example is Circe who lives on the mythical island [Aeaea][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further reading: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/511/57&#xD;&#xA;- https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1986/who-lives-in-mount-olympus-usually&#xD;&#xA;- https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/496/when-did-hades-leave-the-underworld&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_underworld&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hephaestus#Fall_from_Olympus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeaea" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18851" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5634" RevisionGUID="72863fd4-e58a-4517-9ec2-b7ba32f2a735" CreationDate="2019-05-11T23:40:14.840" UserId="57" Text="In the *Odyssey*, the sorceress Circe lives a solitary life in Aeaea. Why is that? How did a goddess end up alone on an island? Can she leave the island, and if not, why? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Madeline Miller in her novel *Circe* has Helios exiling his daughter to Aeaea. I did find several mentions to exile around the web, but unfortunately, none of the articles identified its sources.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there an ancient tale that explains why Circe lives alone in Aeaea?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18852" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5634" RevisionGUID="72863fd4-e58a-4517-9ec2-b7ba32f2a735" CreationDate="2019-05-11T23:40:14.840" UserId="57" Text="Why is Circe in Aeaea?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18853" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5634" RevisionGUID="72863fd4-e58a-4517-9ec2-b7ba32f2a735" CreationDate="2019-05-11T23:40:14.840" UserId="57" Text="|odyssey|source-request|circe|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18855" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5635" RevisionGUID="2800ed60-9d82-47d5-9c01-514bdf726e14" CreationDate="2019-05-12T21:20:37.960" UserId="6047" Text="The link is straight forward Hermes is the god of traveller's wanderers. Hermits are wonderers of the desert.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18856" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5636" RevisionGUID="5c307719-98f3-4b07-bff6-b791e392751b" CreationDate="2019-05-13T01:39:27.143" UserId="2682" Text="It may be that Dionysos [Dionysus] bore a grudge against his closest maternal relatives, who happen to have been Thebans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Three Transgressions**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the myths' chronology, between the foundation of Thebes and the time of Prokris [Procris], there are only three instances (as far as I am aware) upon which Dionysos had occasion to be offended by the people of Thebes. The wine-god engages himself more directly with only two of these three instances.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Number 1**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the two direct encounters involves less carnage, whereupon Dionysos' Theban twin half-brothers Amphion and Zethos [Zethus] violently killed their great-aunt Dirke [Dirce] who had spent many years mistreating the twins' mother Antiope. Because Dirke had been a devotee of Dionysos, the wine-god retaliated by sending madness upon Antiope, which caused her to go wandering all over Greece before she was found by Phokos [Phocus] and cured by him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Number 2**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roughly one generation before this, Dionysos entered into a vicious altercation with his mother's relatives, to whom Antiope was related through marriage. Dionysos' aunts, together with his cousin Pentheus who was king of Thebes at the time, had denied his divinity and claimed that he was not Zeus's son, in addition to which Pentheus had banned the wine-god's cult at Thebes when Dionysos arrived thereat with his entourage after his famous campaign around the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For this, Dionysos, in typical style, induced madness in the city's women, including his aunts, causing them to slaughter their own children. Pentheus was thus torn to pieces by his own mother, who then went to her old father Kadmos [Cadmus] and proudly displayed the king's severed head to the old man, thinking it to be that of a wild beast.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**A Possible Hint**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In both of the aforementioned instances it seems as though Dionysos' vengeance is as complete as he would want it to be, but there is one ancient source which perhaps offers a further sliver of information on the subject, albeit quite obliquely. The 2nd of the *Epigoni* fragments from the Epic Cycle says that:   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Those who have written on Theban affairs have given a full account of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Teumes(s)ian Fox. They relate that the creature was sent by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gods to punish the descendants of Kadmos [Cadmus], and that the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thebans therefore excluded those of the house of Kadmos from kingship.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But (they say) a certain Kephalos [Cephalus], the son of Deion, an&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Athenian, who owned a hound which no beast ever escaped, had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; accidentally killed his wife Prokris [Procris], and being purified of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the homicide by the Kadmeians, hunted the fox with his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hound, and when they had overtaken it both hound and fox were turned&#xD;&#xA;&gt; into stones near Teumessos [Teumessus].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Before the time of Amphion and Zethos, Thebes was called Kadmeia, so &quot;Kadmeians&quot; here could mean Thebans in general, but it might make sense to interpret this iteration thereof as meaning those of the lineage of Kadmos specifically. From other references to the story we know that Kreon [Creon]—the member of the Theban royal family in charge of the situation during the crisis with the fox—was a descendant of Kadmos, and so he likely was closely involved with the purification of Kephalos for his having killed Prokris. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Epigoni* Fragment 2 also fails to reveal the reason for &quot;the gods&quot; wanting to punish Kadmos' descendants, although we do know that other deities apart from Dionysos, namely Ares and Hephaistos [Hephaestus], have been involved in bringing calamity upon the house of Kadmos. If, however, we interpret the fragment more narrowly as referring specifically to Dionysos, using your Pausanias quote as corroboration for this stance, we would be led towards the city's throne succession intrigues to help flesh this out further.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The City's Throne**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kadmos founded Kadmeia and was succeeded as its king by his grandson Pentheus. After Dionysos caused Pentheus' death, Kadmos' son Polydoros [Polydorus] acceded to the throne. Polydoros married Antiope's sister Nykteïs and they had a son named Labdakos [Labdacus], who was too young to rule by the time his father died. Labdakos' grandfather Nykteus [Nycteus]—the father of Nykteïs and Antiope—then served as regent king until Labdakos grew up. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Labdakos had a son, Laios [Laius], and when Laios was one year old, Apollodorus tells us in *Bibliotheka* 3.5.5, Labdakos &quot;perished after Pentheus because he was like-minded with him.&quot; As a footnote to that statement in his translation of the *Bibliotheka*, James George Frazer says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollodorus implies that Labdacus was murdered by the Bacchanals&#xD;&#xA;&gt; because he set himself against the celebration of their orgiastic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rites. But there seems to be no express mention of his violent death&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in ancient writers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If that implication is accurate, then it makes up the third instance of Dionysos being offended by the Thebans. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nykteus was also dead at this point but he had a brother named Lykos [Lycus], who was married to Dirke, and who seized power now that Labdakos was dead and Laios was still a baby. About twenty years later Amphion and Zethos got rid of Lykos and Dirke, expelled Laios from the city, renamed it Thebes, after Zethos' wife Thebe, and essentially began a new dynasty there. This barely lasted a generation however, the twins both losing nearly all of their children, Amphion committing suicide, and his wife and his brother both dying of grief and heartbreak at their troubles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Laios then returned to Thebes and resumed the Kadmeian grasp upon royal power. Sometime afterwards he was outside the city driving his chariot and was killed in a quarrel with a stranger. Around the same time a monster called the Sphinx was plaguing Thebes. Laios' brother-in-law Kreon [Creon], who was himself a great-grandson of Pentheus, had now become regent king. Laios had been married to Kreon's sister Iokasta [Jocasta], whose hand in marriage Kreon now offered as a prize to the man who would rid Thebes of the Sphinx. By marrying Laios' widow, the city's saviour would thus become its king. Soon afterwards a Corinthian prince named Oidipous [Oedipus] arrived at Thebes, got rid of the Sphinx, was wed to Iokasta and became king. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Oidipous and Iokasta had four children and, after they had all grown up it, was revealed that Oidipous was actually the man who had killed Laios, who also happened Oidipous' own father, and that Oidipous had actually married his own mother. That, however, goes beyond the timeline of this Question. It was early within Oidipous's reign over Thebes that the Teumessian Fox was turned to stone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Attempted Reconstruction of the Fox's Career**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Everyone in the throne succession thus far has been a direct descendant of Kadmos, with the exception of the brief consecutive intrusions of Lykos and Amphion, whose reigns are thus, collectively, the only time in the chronology that I can see in which to validate the claim of *Epigoni* Fragment 2 &quot;that the Thebans... excluded those of the house of Kadmos from kingship.&quot; The only way to fit the fox into these intrigues would go something like so:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The wrath of Dionysos remained unquenched, even after he had brutally devastated his relatives and he had gorily gotten rid of his own cousin, the king who attempted to prevent his triumphant return to his mother's hometown. When his uncle Polydoros replaced Pentheus on the throne, he died young (through Dionysos' involvement?) and Polydoros' son Labdakos succeeded him. Labdakos seems to have also offended his cousin Dionysos and paid for it with his life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Enter: The Teumessian Fox!*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With Labdakos having reopened Dionysos' emotional wounds which had been inflicted by their cousin and aunts, Dionysos sent the Teumessian Fox to plague Thebes. Having ascertained the source of this problem, Labdakos' great-great-uncle Lykos used this a pretext to steal the throne from the deceased king's baby son Laios.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The monster fox then gave Thebes a break through the reign of Lykos, whose wife Dirke was especially on Dionysos' good side. Two decades later when Amphion and Zethos killed Dirke, Dionysos' rage against Thebes was rekindled, and reached a peak when Laios of the house of Kadmos returned to the throne. The Teumessian Fox returned and plagued the city for perhaps two more decades before Oidipous' reign began, at which point Kephalos the Athenian came to Thebes with the extraordinary hound which eventually resolved that monstrous issue.            " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18857" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="5635" RevisionGUID="46215306-003b-43b4-bcf6-d493676339ab" CreationDate="2019-05-13T07:51:32.083" UserId="108" Comment="86" />
  <row Id="18858" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5632" RevisionGUID="2d0b0931-e507-4eb5-801e-b63495a6d84e" CreationDate="2019-05-13T08:10:24.377" UserId="57" Comment="added 118 characters in body" Text="**No.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both Hades and Poseidon, Zeus's brothers, prefer their own domains to Olympus. Hades lives in the [underworld][1] and Poseidon in the sea, near Euboea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hephaestus, another one of the *dodekatheon*, lived on Lemnos island after [Hera ejected him from Olympus][2]. In Thracian mythology, Ares prefered Mount Haimos in Thrace to Olympus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Minor gods could also live elsewhere. A couple of examples from the *Odyssey* is Circe who lives on the mythical island [Aeaea][3] and the nymph Calypso who lives in [Ogygia][4].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further reading: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/511/57&#xD;&#xA;- https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1986/who-lives-in-mount-olympus-usually&#xD;&#xA;- https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/496/when-did-hades-leave-the-underworld&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_underworld&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hephaestus#Fall_from_Olympus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeaea&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogygia" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18859" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4810" RevisionGUID="af926d33-2ebf-4615-8beb-3ab46db44edb" CreationDate="2019-05-14T02:18:58.590" UserId="2682" Comment="tweaked some details" Text="[![Bertel Thorvaldsen's Cupid Leading Cerberus][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;In 1828 the Danish sculptor Albert Bertel Thorvaldsen made this piece (above), entitled *Cupid Leading Cerberus*. On his website the [Greek Mythology Link](http://www.maicar.com/GML/000Iconography/Cerberus/slides/9130.html), Carlos Parada has labelled this picture: &quot;Cupid in the Underworld, as the Tamer of Cerberus, with Pluto’s Pitchfork&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This artwork of Thorvaldsen does not seem to be based on any ancient myth but it does present what might be the oldest artistic impression of the monster's origin as a watchdog beyond the plain mention of Cerberus' parents. (I had never thought about the hound as a puppy before I saw this image. Cute as the little monster might be, notice that the puppy's tail is actually a furry snake!) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are numerous ways in which one could interpret the piece, but an especially literal one would be to appeal to the saying &quot;Love conquers all&quot; (a love story being yet another thing with which I would not have thought to associate the monster dog). On the other hand there's potential here for a story about how the monster used to be Cupid's dog when they were both little. That of course is all otherwise modern fan-fiction.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his *Fall of Troy*, Quintus Smyrnaeus mentions Cerberus' birthplace as a dark, rocky cavern &quot;close to the border of eternal Night&quot;. In Hesiod's *Theogony*, Night lives close to the pit of Tartarus, which is in the Underworld. Quintus' description of Night is itself an allusion to the *Theogony*, wherein Hesiod has the three Gorgons living someplace on the border of the earth-encircling river Oceanus &quot;in the frontier land towards Night&quot; near where the Hesperides are located. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cerberus has no other role in the mythology whatsoever. He is always mentioned in connection with his guard-dog duty and either with his master Hades/Pluto or with the realm of the dead. He has a number of monstrous siblings (some of whom occur in different authors as his uncles/aunts or nephews/nieces) occupying similar positions as guardians posted by—or as *weapons* used by—the gods. Presumably because of [close family ties](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/4695/2682) shared by the deities with the creatures, the gods simply have ease of access to these beasts, whom they use as mere pets, but seldom is any explanation given of the source of these pets aside from their pedigrees. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice, for example, how the war-god Ares sends a sleepless dragon to his devotee King Aeetes of Colchis so that it can guard the Golden Fleece for him in Ares' sacred grove. According to Hyginus this dragon is Cerberus' brother; we are not told how Ares came into the possession of this creature. Same with the Sphinx (sister or niece [or both] of Cerberus), sent by Ares, Hera, Dionysus, Hades or Themis to terrorise the city of Thebes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cerberus' uncle or brother Ladon, another sleepless dragon, was posted by Hera to watch over her gardens in Africa. The Hydra, yet another dragon relative of Cerberus, was reared by Hera in the hope that it would grow up to one day kill Heracles [Hercules]. Hera reared the Nemean Lion (also a relative) with the same agenda. The giant eagle (or hawk or vulture) which regularly fed on the liver of the Titan Prometheus was sent by Zeus to do this and was a brother of the hound of Hades as well. Like Ladon and the Hydra, it too was slain by Heracles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A family member that Cerberus is especially well-known for having is his brother Orthrus (or Orthus), the two-headed sheepdog of the triple-bodied giant warrior Geryones. Apart from a myth-rationalisation by Palaephatus, there is no story which places these two dogs together. There is, however, one character who loosely connects the two, and who perhaps interacted with both guard-dogs on a regular basis, and that is Menoetes, the herdsman of Hades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Menoetes was friends with Geryones, whose pasture was adjacent to his. Geryones, a red ogre with a herd of red cattle, living on the island of Erytheia, &quot;Red,&quot; represented dusk and lived on the edge of Evening, near Sunset, like the Gorgons (one of whom, Medusa, was Geryones' grandmother) and the Hesperides (Evening's Daughters), by the place where Cerberus was born (or hatched?) on the boundary of the Underworld (a threshold which he later blockades). Menoetes lived beyond this borderland, in the nocturnal darkness of the deadlands, with *his* herds of sable-*black* cattle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was Menoetes who reported to Geryones that Heracles was stealing his cattle, whereupon Geryones rushed to protect his property and ended up getting killed by the thief, together with his dog Orthrus and his own herdsman the giant Eurytion.   &#xD;&#xA;[![Euphronius' Orthrus dead][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;Later on, when Heracles visited the Underworld to fetch Cerberus, and, unprovoked, he slaughtered one of Hades' cattle, Menoetes got into a fight with him and almost died after Heracles broke his ribs. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This borderland herdsman Menoetes, who seems to straddle both worlds, that of the living and that of the dead, between Evening and &quot;eternal&quot; Night, might have had something to do with the dogs getting to their respective owners in the first place. That is purely conjectural, though, since, as you say, it simply is not mentioned how the Underworld hound first acquired his post.        &#xD;&#xA;       &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/bz1zD.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/rthdf.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18860" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5636" RevisionGUID="642d7e0f-071e-4770-901b-fb0240bf52e5" CreationDate="2019-05-14T06:00:59.977" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; added info" Text="**A Sphinx Replacement?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Book 7 of Ovid's *Metamorphoses* strongly implies that the attacks of the Teumessian Fox's were revenge for the death of another monster, the Sphinx, which Thebes had been rid of thanks to Oidipous [Oedipus], who won the throne of Thebes by accomplishing this feat. Ovid says that the Teumessian Fox descended upon Thebes immediately after the Sphinx was gone. However, in his account, it is the goddess Themis who sends the fox, and, by inference, she was responsible for the Sphinx as well. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;No other ancient source (of which I am aware) specifies a reason for the Teumessian Fox being a punishment. The scholion on Hesiod's *Theogony* 326 says that it was Dionysos [Dionysus] who had sent the Sphinx. Meanwhile, Apollodorus says that it was Hera who had sent the Sphinx because Laios [Laius], who had been king of Thebes before Oidipous, had kidnapped Pelops's young son Khrysippos [Chrysippus] for the purpose of paederasty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we combined all the above versions together and pinned it all on Dionysos, the narrative would be that Dionysos sent the Sphinx because of Laios's crimes and then sent the fox to avenge the Sphinx. It, however, seems quite out of character for Dionysos to consider Laios's actions with Khrysippos a crime, on top of us having to doctor the information from the sources quite as much as I've just done.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Having said that, then, there are some other, rather more personal reasons, why Dionysos would have beef with Thebes, with support from the only other ancient source (that I have found) which hints, obliquely, at why the fox was sent to Thebes. This source would be older than Ovid.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Three Transgressions**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It may be that Dionysos bore a grudge against his closest maternal relatives, who happen to have been Thebans. In the myths' chronology, between the foundation of Thebes and the time of Prokris [Procris], there are only three instances (as far as I am aware) upon which Dionysos had occasion to be offended by the people of Thebes. The wine-god engages himself more directly with only two of these three instances.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Number 1**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the two direct encounters involves less carnage, whereupon Dionysos' Theban twin half-brothers Amphion and Zethos [Zethus] violently killed their great-aunt Dirke [Dirce] who had spent many years mistreating the twins' mother Antiope. Because Dirke had been a devotee of Dionysos, the wine-god retaliated by sending madness upon Antiope, which caused her to go wandering all over Greece before she was found by Phokos [Phocus] and cured by him. The region of Phokis [Phocis], which Phokos had named after himself, is where she settled with and was married to him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Number 2**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roughly one generation before this, Dionysos entered into a vicious altercation with his mother's relatives, to whom Antiope was related through marriage. Dionysos' aunts, together with his cousin Pentheus who was king of Thebes at the time, had denied his divinity and claimed that he was not Zeus's son, in addition to which Pentheus had banned the wine-god's cult at Thebes when Dionysos arrived thereat with his entourage after his famous campaign around the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For this, Dionysos, in typical style, induced madness in the city's women, including his aunts, causing them to slaughter their own children. Pentheus was thus torn to pieces by his own mother, who then went to her old father Kadmos [Cadmus] and proudly displayed the king's severed head to the old man, thinking it to be that of a wild beast.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**A Possible Hint**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In both of the aforementioned instances it seems as though Dionysos' vengeance is as complete as he would want it to be, but the 2nd of the *Epigoni* fragments from the Epic Cycle perhaps offers a further sliver of information on the subject, saying:   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Those who have written on Theban affairs have given a full account of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Teumes(s)ian Fox. They relate that the creature was sent by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gods to punish the descendants of Kadmos, and that the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thebans therefore excluded those of the house of Kadmos from kingship.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But (they say) a certain Kephalos [Cephalus], the son of Deion, an&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Athenian, who owned a hound which no beast ever escaped, had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; accidentally killed his wife Prokris, and being purified of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the homicide by the Kadmeians, hunted the fox with his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hound, and when they had overtaken it both hound and fox were turned&#xD;&#xA;&gt; into stones near Teumessos [Teumessus].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This tells us nothing about why &quot;the gods&quot; would want to punish Kadmos' descendants, although we do know that other deities apart from Dionysos (most notably Ares and Hephaistos [Hephaestus]) have been involved in bringing calamity upon the house of Kadmos. If, however, we interpret the fragment more narrowly as referring specifically to Dionysos, using your Pausanias quote as corroboration for this stance, we would be led towards the city's throne succession intrigues to help flesh this out further.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The City's Throne**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kadmos founded Thebes and was succeeded as its king by his grandson Pentheus. After Dionysos caused Pentheus' death, Kadmos' son Polydoros [Polydorus] acceded to the throne. Polydoros married Antiope's sister Nykteïs and they had a son named Labdakos [Labdacus], who was too young to rule by the time his father died. Labdakos' grandfather Nykteus [Nycteus]—the father of Nykteïs and Antiope—then served as regent king until Labdakos grew up. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Labdakos had a son, Laios [Laius], and when Laios was one year old, Apollodorus tells us in *Bibliotheka* 3.5.5, Labdakos &quot;perished after Pentheus because he was like-minded with him.&quot; As a footnote to that statement in his translation of the *Bibliotheka*, James George Frazer says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollodorus implies that Labdacus was murdered by the Bacchanals&#xD;&#xA;&gt; because he set himself against the celebration of their orgiastic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rites. But there seems to be no express mention of his violent death&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in ancient writers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If that implication is accurate, then it makes up the third instance of Dionysos being offended by the Thebans. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nykteus was also dead at this point but he had a brother named Lykos [Lycus], who was married to Dirke, and who seized power now that Labdakos was dead and Laios was still a baby. About twenty years later Amphion and Zethos got rid of Lykos and Dirke, expelled Laios from the city, and essentially began a new dynasty there. This barely lasted a generation however, the twins both losing nearly all of their children, Amphion committing suicide, and his wife and his brother both dying of grief and heartbreak at their troubles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Laios then returned to Thebes and resumed the Kadmeian grasp upon royal power. (It is prior this, while in exile, that he had kidnapped Khrysippos.) Sometime afterwards while travelling through Phokis (where Antiope had lived after the end of her Dionysos madness) he was killed in a quarrel with a stranger. Laios' brother-in-law Kreon, himself a descendant of Pentheus, now became regent king. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Soon afterwards the Sphinx came to Thebes. Laios had been married to Kreon's sister Iokasta [Jocasta], whose hand in marriage Kreon now offered as a prize to the man who would rid Thebes of the Sphinx. By marrying Laios' widow, the city's saviour would thus become its king. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That is when Oidipous arrived as a foreigner to Thebes, got rid of the Sphinx, was wed to Iokasta and became king. Not too long after this Kephalos was called to Thebes and, with the help of his extraordinary hunting-dog, was able to solve the problem of the Teumessian Fox.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Attempted Reconstruction of the Fox's Career**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Everyone in the throne succession thus far has been a direct descendant of Kadmos, with the exception of the consecutive intrusions of Lykos and Amphion, whose reigns are thus, collectively, the only time in the chronology that I can see in which to validate the claim of *Epigoni* Fragment 2 &quot;that the Thebans... excluded those of the house of Kadmos from kingship.&quot; The only way to fit the fox into these intrigues would go something like so:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The wrath of Dionysos remained unquenched, even after he had brutally devastated his relatives and gotten rid of his own cousin, the king who had attempted to end the god's triumphant advent at his mother's hometown. When his uncle Polydoros replaced Pentheus on the throne, the new king died fairly young (through Dionysos' involvement?) and Polydoros' son Labdakos succeeded him. Labdakos seems to have also offended his cousin Dionysos and paid for it with his life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Enter: The Teumessian Fox!*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With Labdakos having reopened Dionysos' emotional wounds which had been inflicted by their cousin and aunts, Dionysos sent the Teumessian Fox to plague Thebes. Having ascertained the source of this problem, Labdakos' great-uncle Lykos used this a pretext to steal the throne from the deceased king's baby son Laios.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The monster fox then gave Thebes a break through the reign of Lykos, whose wife Dirke was especially on Dionysos' good side. Two decades later when Amphion and Zethos killed Dirke, Dionysos' rage against Thebes was rekindled, and only flared up further later on when Laios brought the house of Kadmos back into power. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even though Laios died violently, it was Kreon, none other than a great-grandson of the loathsome Pentheus, who took his place. So Dionysos sent the Sphinx, but Oidipous summarily handled business with *that* creature. Finally, then, it was time for the Teumessian Fox to return to Thebes, and it put the city in dire straits for quite some time before an end was made of it too. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18861" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5636" RevisionGUID="bd1af373-4ce5-4459-9d7a-e96523064c85" CreationDate="2019-05-14T06:51:21.937" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="**A Sphinx Replacement?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Book 7 of Ovid's *Metamorphoses* strongly implies that the attacks of the Teumessian Fox were revenge for the death of another monster, the Sphinx, which Thebes had been rid of thanks to Oidipous [Oedipus], who won the throne of Thebes by accomplishing this feat. Ovid says that the Teumessian Fox descended upon Thebes immediately after the Sphinx was gone. However, in his account, it is the goddess Themis who sends the fox, and, by inference, she was responsible for the Sphinx as well. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;No other ancient source (of which I am aware) specifies a reason for the Teumessian Fox being a punishment. The scholion on Hesiod's *Theogony* 326 says that it was Dionysos [Dionysus] who had sent the Sphinx. Meanwhile, Apollodorus says that it was Hera who had sent the Sphinx because Laios [Laius], who had been king of Thebes before Oidipous, had kidnapped Pelops's young son Khrysippos [Chrysippus] for the purpose of paederasty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we combined all the above versions together and pinned it all on Dionysos, the narrative would be that Dionysos sent the Sphinx because of Laios's crimes and then sent the fox to avenge the Sphinx. It, however, seems quite out of character for Dionysos to consider Laios's actions with Khrysippos a crime, on top of us having to doctor the information from the sources quite as much as I've just done.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Having said that, then, there are some other, rather more personal reasons, why Dionysos would have beef with Thebes, with support from the only other ancient source (that I have found) which hints, obliquely, at why the fox was sent to Thebes. This source would be older than Ovid.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Three Transgressions**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It may be that Dionysos bore a grudge against his closest maternal relatives, who happen to have been Thebans. In the myths' chronology, between the foundation of Thebes and the time of Prokris [Procris], there are only three instances (as far as I am aware) upon which Dionysos had occasion to be offended by the people of Thebes. The wine-god engages himself more directly with only two of these three instances.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Number 1**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the two direct encounters involves less carnage, whereupon Dionysos' Theban twin half-brothers Amphion and Zethos [Zethus] violently killed their great-aunt Dirke [Dirce] who had spent many years mistreating the twins' mother Antiope. Because Dirke had been a devotee of Dionysos, the wine-god retaliated by sending madness upon Antiope, which caused her to go wandering all over Greece before she was found by Phokos [Phocus] and cured by him. The region of Phokis [Phocis], which Phokos had named after himself, is where she settled with and was married to him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Number 2**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roughly one generation before this, Dionysos entered into a vicious altercation with his mother's relatives, to whom Antiope was related through marriage. Dionysos' aunts, together with his cousin Pentheus who was king of Thebes at the time, had denied his divinity and claimed that he was not Zeus's son, in addition to which Pentheus had banned the wine-god's cult at Thebes when Dionysos arrived thereat with his entourage after his famous campaign around the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For this, Dionysos, in typical style, induced madness in the city's women, including his aunts, causing them to slaughter their own children. Pentheus was thus torn to pieces by his own mother, who then went to her old father Kadmos [Cadmus] and proudly displayed the king's severed head to the old man, thinking it to be that of a wild beast.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**A Possible Hint**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In both of the aforementioned instances it seems as though Dionysos' vengeance is as complete as he would want it to be, but the 2nd of the *Epigoni* fragments from the Epic Cycle perhaps offers a further sliver of information on the subject, saying:   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Those who have written on Theban affairs have given a full account of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Teumes(s)ian Fox. They relate that the creature was sent by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gods to punish the descendants of Kadmos, and that the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thebans therefore excluded those of the house of Kadmos from kingship.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But (they say) a certain Kephalos [Cephalus], the son of Deion, an&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Athenian, who owned a hound which no beast ever escaped, had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; accidentally killed his wife Prokris, and being purified of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the homicide by the Kadmeians, hunted the fox with his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hound, and when they had overtaken it both hound and fox were turned&#xD;&#xA;&gt; into stones near Teumessos [Teumessus].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This tells us nothing about why &quot;the gods&quot; would want to punish Kadmos' descendants, although we do know that other deities apart from Dionysos (most notably Ares and Hephaistos [Hephaestus]) have been involved in bringing calamity upon the house of Kadmos. If, however, we interpret the fragment more narrowly as referring specifically to Dionysos, using your Pausanias quote as corroboration for this stance, we would be led towards the city's throne succession intrigues to help flesh this out further.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The City's Throne**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kadmos founded Thebes and was succeeded as its king by his grandson Pentheus. After Dionysos caused Pentheus' death, Kadmos' son Polydoros [Polydorus] acceded to the throne. Polydoros married Antiope's sister Nykteïs and they had a son named Labdakos [Labdacus], who was too young to rule by the time his father died. Labdakos' grandfather Nykteus [Nycteus]—the father of Nykteïs and Antiope—then served as regent king until Labdakos grew up. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Labdakos had a son, Laios, and when Laios was one year old, Apollodorus tells us in *Bibliotheka* 3.5.5, Labdakos &quot;perished after Pentheus because he was like-minded with him.&quot; As a footnote to that statement in his translation of the *Bibliotheka*, James George Frazer says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollodorus implies that Labdacus was murdered by the Bacchanals&#xD;&#xA;&gt; because he set himself against the celebration of their orgiastic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rites. But there seems to be no express mention of his violent death&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in ancient writers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If that implication is accurate, then it makes up the third instance of Dionysos being offended by the Thebans. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nykteus was also dead at this point but he had a brother named Lykos [Lycus], who was married to Dirke, and who seized power now that Labdakos was dead and Laios was still a baby. About twenty years later Amphion and Zethos got rid of Lykos and Dirke, expelled Laios from the city, and essentially began a new dynasty there. This barely lasted a generation however, the twins both losing nearly all of their children, Amphion committing suicide, and his wife and his brother both dying of grief and heartbreak at their troubles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Laios then returned to Thebes and resumed the Kadmeian grasp upon royal power. (It is prior to this, while in exile, that he had kidnapped Khrysippos.) Sometime afterwards while travelling through Phokis (where Antiope had lived after the end of her Dionysos madness) he was killed in a quarrel with a stranger. Laios' brother-in-law Kreon, himself a descendant of Pentheus, now became regent king. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Soon afterwards the Sphinx came to Thebes. Laios had been married to Kreon's sister Iokasta [Jocasta], whose hand in marriage Kreon now offered as a prize to the man who would rid Thebes of the Sphinx. By marrying Laios' widow, the city's saviour would thus become its king. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That is when Oidipous arrived as a foreigner to Thebes, got rid of the Sphinx, was wed to Iokasta and became king. Not too long after this Kephalos was called to Thebes and, with the help of his extraordinary hunting-dog, was able to solve the problem of the Teumessian Fox.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Attempted Reconstruction of the Fox's Career**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Everyone in the throne succession thus far has been a direct descendant of Kadmos, with the exception of the consecutive intrusions of Lykos and Amphion, whose reigns are thus, collectively, the only time in the chronology that I can see in which to validate the claim of *Epigoni* Fragment 2 &quot;that the Thebans... excluded those of the house of Kadmos from kingship.&quot; The only way to fit the fox into these intrigues would go something like so:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The wrath of Dionysos remained unquenched, even after he had brutally devastated his relatives and gotten rid of his own cousin, the king who had attempted to end the god's triumphant advent at his mother's hometown. When his uncle Polydoros replaced Pentheus on the throne, the new king died fairly young (through Dionysos' involvement?) and Polydoros' son Labdakos succeeded him. Labdakos seems to have also offended his cousin Dionysos and paid for it with his life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Enter: The Teumessian Fox!*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With Labdakos having reopened Dionysos' emotional wounds which had been inflicted by their cousin and aunts, Dionysos sent the Teumessian Fox to plague Thebes. Having ascertained the source of this problem, Labdakos' great-uncle Lykos used this a pretext to steal the throne from the deceased king's baby son Laios.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The monster fox then gave Thebes a break through the reign of Lykos, whose wife Dirke was especially on Dionysos' good side. Two decades later when Amphion and Zethos killed Dirke, Dionysos' rage against Thebes was rekindled, and only flared up further when, later on, Laios brought the house of Kadmos back into power. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even though Laios died violently, it was Kreon, none other than a great-grandson of the loathsome Pentheus, who took his place. So Dionysos sent the Sphinx, but Oidipous summarily handled business with *that* creature. Finally, then, it was time for the Teumessian Fox to return to Thebes, and it put the city in dire straits for quite some time before an end was made of it too. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18862" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5637" RevisionGUID="244104b2-3272-4859-ab3a-f1d0e552ae29" CreationDate="2019-05-14T16:06:13.057" UserId="6050" Text="I completed reading a book titled &quot;Old Greek Stories&quot; by James Baldwin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It features some well known Ancient Heroes such as Theseus &amp; Perseus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But the way it was told seemed like several nations and locations in that world (Crete/Aegean/Thebes) got their name or origin as a result of some hero's journey.&#xD;&#xA;Such as the Formation of Athens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are Greek Hero stories rooted in real Life persons ? &#xD;&#xA;Were they part of the narrative constructed to glorify a Ruler, or by Inhabitants of a Society to show them of superior pedigree ?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18863" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5637" RevisionGUID="244104b2-3272-4859-ab3a-f1d0e552ae29" CreationDate="2019-05-14T16:06:13.057" UserId="6050" Text="Are Greek Myths and Heroes Rooted in actual History and People?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18864" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5637" RevisionGUID="244104b2-3272-4859-ab3a-f1d0e552ae29" CreationDate="2019-05-14T16:06:13.057" UserId="6050" Text="|greek|comparative|theseus|perseus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18865" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5638" RevisionGUID="a3fe54fd-f6ef-4424-b87c-aab6acdfd9c4" CreationDate="2019-05-14T16:35:18.727" UserId="2807" Text="The Wikipedia article for [Theseus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theseus) ends its introduction with this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As the subject of myth, the existence of Theseus as a real person has&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not been proven, but scholars believe that he may have been alive&#xD;&#xA;&gt; during the Late Bronze Age possibly as a king in the 8th or 9th&#xD;&#xA;&gt; century BC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This assertion is based on [Classical Mythology Tenth Edition](https://global.oup.com/us/companion.websites/9780199997329/student/materials/chapter23/commentary/), quoting the relevant parts:&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **History and Legend.** Theseus of all the legendary heroes has the strongest claims to being a real person. As stated above, he was for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Plutarch a historical figure and he very likely was one of the kings&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Athens perhaps in the ninth or eighth century B.C. But serious&#xD;&#xA;&gt; historical and chronological problems arise when we try to understand&#xD;&#xA;&gt; how he appears as the great conqueror of the legendary Minotaur and a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; king of Athens in the earlier Mycenaean Age and also a later king of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Athens who has more serious claims to reality. Were there two&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Theseuses or only one, around whom all the stories clustered? Some&#xD;&#xA;&gt; scholars question the traditional dates established for the Dark Age&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that descended upon Greece after the fall of the Mycenaean kingdoms,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ca. 1100–800 B.C.; on the basis of comparative studies, they would&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eliminate this Dark Age altogether or at least place the chronology of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the legendary Mycenaean kings of Athens much closer in time to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; chronology of the later historical monarchy, thus making one&#xD;&#xA;&gt; historical Theseus more comprehensible.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The excavations of Sir Arthur Evans in Crete seem to confirm details&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Minoan-Mycenaean and Athenian saga. For one thing, the elaborate&#xD;&#xA;&gt; palace at Cnossus with its complexity of levels and maze of rooms does&#xD;&#xA;&gt; suggest a labyrinth. For the history and archaeology of the Minoan and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mycenaean period, see MLS, Chapter 2.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Morford, Mark; Lenardon, Robert J.; Sham, Michael. &quot;[Classical Mythology Tenth Edition](https://global.oup.com/us/companion.websites/9780199997329/student/materials/chapter23/commentary/)&quot;. Oxford University Press. Oxford University Press.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Worth mentioning too the idea of [Euhemerism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euhemerism):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; an approach to the interpretation of mythology in which mythological&#xD;&#xA;&gt; accounts are presumed to have originated from real historical events&#xD;&#xA;&gt; or personages. Euhemerism supposes that historical accounts become&#xD;&#xA;&gt; myths as they are exaggerated in the retelling, accumulating&#xD;&#xA;&gt; elaborations and alterations that reflect cultural mores. It was named&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for the Greek mythographer&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Euhemerus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euhemerus), who lived in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; late 4th century BC. In the more recent literature of myth, such as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Bulfinch's Mythology, euhemerism is termed the &quot;historical theory&quot; of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18866" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5638" RevisionGUID="879296d4-6b54-421f-b9bb-7c467215b242" CreationDate="2019-05-14T17:20:30.843" UserId="2807" Comment="edited body" Text="The Wikipedia article for [Theseus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theseus) ends its introduction with this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; As the subject of myth, the existence of Theseus as a real person has&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not been proven, but scholars believe that he may have been alive&#xD;&#xA;&gt; during the Late Bronze Age possibly as a king in the 8th or 9th&#xD;&#xA;&gt; century BC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This assertion is based on [Classical Mythology Tenth Edition](https://global.oup.com/us/companion.websites/9780199997329/student/materials/chapter23/commentary/). Quoting the relevant parts:&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **History and Legend.** Theseus of all the legendary heroes has the strongest claims to being a real person. As stated above, he was for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Plutarch a historical figure and he very likely was one of the kings&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Athens perhaps in the ninth or eighth century B.C. But serious&#xD;&#xA;&gt; historical and chronological problems arise when we try to understand&#xD;&#xA;&gt; how he appears as the great conqueror of the legendary Minotaur and a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; king of Athens in the earlier Mycenaean Age and also a later king of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Athens who has more serious claims to reality. Were there two&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Theseuses or only one, around whom all the stories clustered? Some&#xD;&#xA;&gt; scholars question the traditional dates established for the Dark Age&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that descended upon Greece after the fall of the Mycenaean kingdoms,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ca. 1100–800 B.C.; on the basis of comparative studies, they would&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eliminate this Dark Age altogether or at least place the chronology of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the legendary Mycenaean kings of Athens much closer in time to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; chronology of the later historical monarchy, thus making one&#xD;&#xA;&gt; historical Theseus more comprehensible.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The excavations of Sir Arthur Evans in Crete seem to confirm details&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Minoan-Mycenaean and Athenian saga. For one thing, the elaborate&#xD;&#xA;&gt; palace at Cnossus with its complexity of levels and maze of rooms does&#xD;&#xA;&gt; suggest a labyrinth. For the history and archaeology of the Minoan and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mycenaean period, see MLS, Chapter 2.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Morford, Mark; Lenardon, Robert J.; Sham, Michael. &quot;[Classical Mythology Tenth Edition](https://global.oup.com/us/companion.websites/9780199997329/student/materials/chapter23/commentary/)&quot;. Oxford University Press. Oxford University Press.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Worth mentioning too the idea of [Euhemerism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euhemerism):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; an approach to the interpretation of mythology in which mythological&#xD;&#xA;&gt; accounts are presumed to have originated from real historical events&#xD;&#xA;&gt; or personages. Euhemerism supposes that historical accounts become&#xD;&#xA;&gt; myths as they are exaggerated in the retelling, accumulating&#xD;&#xA;&gt; elaborations and alterations that reflect cultural mores. It was named&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for the Greek mythographer&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Euhemerus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euhemerus), who lived in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; late 4th century BC. In the more recent literature of myth, such as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Bulfinch's Mythology, euhemerism is termed the &quot;historical theory&quot; of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18867" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5639" RevisionGUID="4e893dd1-0fcf-44e7-bc25-939c17031c19" CreationDate="2019-05-14T20:57:16.687" UserId="2682" Text="**Son of Aigaios?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as English translations of the *Iliad* go, there is a rather unique interpretation of the word Αἰγαίων᾽ in Richmond Alexander Lattimore's 1951 translation of the *Iliad* (specifically of Book 1, Line 404 in this case). A straight transliteration thereof would give us &quot;Aigaion&quot;. English translations tend to then Latinise this into &quot;Aegaeon&quot; (such as it is in your Question). In Lattimore's version:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that creature the gods name Briareos, but all men Aigaios' son, but he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is far greater in strength than his father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is actually a somewhat ingenious and quite legitimate way to interpret the giant's &quot;human&quot; name. Compare how, in the line immediately following, Zeus is referred to by one of his common epithets, *Kronion* [Cronion], which, as we know, indicates &quot;Son of Kronos [*Cronus*]&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On his [Poetry in Translation website](https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad1.php#anchor_Toc328052752), A.S. Kline translates the last clause of Line 404 to read that &quot;Aegaeon&quot; is &quot;mightier than his father Poseidon&quot;. The word &quot;Poseidon&quot; actually does not appear in this line of the Greek text from which it is being translated, nor do I know of any ancient source that explicitly says anything about this giant being a son of Poseidon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his book &quot;The *Iliad*, Edited with Apparatus Criticus, Prolegomena, Notes, and Appendices&quot; (1900), Walter Leaf says, in Footnote 403 on Page 32, that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The father of Briareus was, according to the legend, Poseidon, who was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; himself sometimes called *Αἰγαίων* or *Αἰγαῖος*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reference is vague as to the source of this &quot;legend&quot; but there is indeed the citation by Strabo, in Book 9 of his *Geography*, that Poseidon was called Aigaios at Aigai [Aegae] in Boiotia [Boeotia], where he had a temple under this name, which presumably denotes him as Poseidon &quot;Of [the City of] Aigai&quot;. Book 13 of the *Iliad* says that Poseidon lived in an underwater palace at this Aigai (see also *Odyssey* 5.381). Lycophron does refer to Poseidon as *Aigaio**n*** in his poem *Alexandra* (135).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Hesiod's *Theogony*, Briareus was married to Poseidon's daughter Kymopoleia [Cymopoleia], so at the very least this giant was a son-*in-law* of the King of the Sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a lost epic called the *Titanomachy* which seems to have treated some of the characters from the *Theogony* differently from Hesiod's placement of their allegiances in his account of the War of the Titans. Referring to this lost *Titanomachy*, the scholion on Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautica* 1.1165, says that Aigaion was a son of Pontos (the Sea) and Gaia (the Earth), that he lived in the Sea, and that he fought on the side of the Titans against Zeus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cinaithon, another early poet who knew of this giant's double name,&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; says that Aigaion was defeated by Poseidon.&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; In some instances it seems that Aigaion and Briareos are not necessarily the same character and that perhaps two separate personages were fused into this one, who we eventually know best as a son of the *Sky* (Ouranos [Uranus]) and the Earth, rather than of the Sea and the Earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But even in the *Theogony*, which simply calls him Briareos (or Obriareos), Poseidon specifically singles him out among his triplet brothers in order to make him his son-in-law &quot;because he was good&quot; or &quot;goodly.&quot; In some sense there was something special about him among the Hundred-Handers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Language Distinction Between the Gods and Mortals**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The same sort of double name ascribed to Aigaion-Briareos is given to the main river of Troy in *Iliad* 20. This river was a god whose fellow deities called Xanthos [Xanthus] but whom mortals referred to as Skamandros [Scamander]. The same footnote of Leaf's *Iliad* book, mentioned above, takes note of these double names and comments:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The natural supposition would be that the 'divine' words are archaic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; survivals, perhaps from an older race. It is sometimes said that the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; divine name has usually a clearer meaning than the human, and that the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greeks therefore regarded their own tongue as divine, and others as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the languages of mere men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Leaf, though, goes on to say that this is the case only with one other example, as well as, perhaps the Xanthos-Skamandros *Iliad* quote, &quot;which, however, look like different renderings of the same foreign word.&quot; He goes on to mention that the Pelasgian Hermes was called Imbros [Imbrus], apparently understanding this to be an earlier, pre-Greek version of this deity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Roman poet Ovid, in Book 11 of his Metamorphoses, has a similar thing to say about one of the numerous minor gods who personify dreams.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The gods have named him Icelus; here below the tribe of mortals call&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him Phobetor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems clear that Ovid does *not* mean to say that Latin is the language of the gods. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The case here, as with Xanthos/Skamandros and Aigaion/Briareos, I think, is rather a case of the poets in question attempting to add verisimilitude and realism to their storytelling. I interpret the idea here to be that the gods have their own language that they speak and that: &quot;Now I, as the narrator, am going to mention one or two naming conventions as examples of how that divine language differs from that of us mortals [a form of Ancient Greek in Homer's case; and Latin in Ovid's case]...&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Page 107, from Ch. 8, &quot;Writing Local History: Archemachus and His *Euboika*&quot;, by Sławomir Sprawski, in *The Children of Herodotus: Greek and Roman Historiography and Related Genres*, ed. Jakub Pigoń (2008).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. Page 69 of *Early Greek Mythography, Vol. 2: Commentary*, by Robert L. Fowler (2013).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. The *Theogony* (Lines 820ff) implies that the gods do have their own language, which the immense, many-headed, fire-breathing monster Typhoeus has the ability to speak, in addition to emitting &quot; every sort of horrible sound&quot; such as &quot;the sound of a bellowing bull... or again like a lion shameless in cruelty, or again it was like the barking of dogs, a wonder to listen to, or again he would whistle so the tall mountains re-echoed to it.&quot;&lt;/sub&gt; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18868" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5639" RevisionGUID="d6346449-d3ed-47ce-839e-4611d85f5b98" CreationDate="2019-05-14T22:35:36.700" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; added info" Text="**Son of Aigaios?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as English translations of the *Iliad* go, there is a rather unique interpretation of the word Αἰγαίων᾽ in Richmond Alexander Lattimore's 1951 translation of the *Iliad* (specifically Book 1, Line 404 in this case). A straight transliteration thereof would give us &quot;Aigaion&quot;. English translations tend to then Latinise this into &quot;Aegaeon&quot; (such as it is in your Question). In Lattimore's version:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that creature the gods name Briareos, but all men Aigaios' son, but he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is far greater in strength than his father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is actually a somewhat ingenious and quite legitimate way to interpret the giant's &quot;human&quot; name. Compare how, in the line immediately following, Zeus is referred to by one of his common epithets, *Kronion* [Cronion], which, as we know, indicates &quot;Son of Kronos [*Cronus*]&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On his [Poetry in Translation website](https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad1.php#anchor_Toc328052752), A.S. Kline translates the last clause of Line 404 to read that &quot;Aegaeon&quot; is &quot;mightier than his father Poseidon&quot;. The word &quot;Poseidon&quot; actually does not appear in this line of the Greek text from which it is being translated, nor do I know of any ancient source that explicitly says anything about this giant being a son of Poseidon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his book &quot;The *Iliad*, Edited with Apparatus Criticus, Prolegomena, Notes, and Appendices&quot; (1900), Walter Leaf says, in Footnote 403 on Page 32, that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The father of Briareus was, according to the legend, Poseidon, who was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; himself sometimes called *Αἰγαίων* or *Αἰγαῖος*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reference is vague as to the source of this &quot;legend&quot; but there is indeed the citation by Strabo, in Book 9 of his *Geography*, that Poseidon was called Aigaios at Aigai [Aegae] in Boiotia [Boeotia], where he had a temple under this name, which presumably denotes him as Poseidon &quot;Of [the City of] Aigai&quot;. Book 13 of the *Iliad* says that Poseidon lived in a palace under the Sea at this Aigai (see also *Odyssey* 5.381). Lycophron does refer to Poseidon as *Aigaio**n*** in his poem *Alexandra* (135).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Hesiod's *Theogony*, Briareus was married to Poseidon's daughter Kymopoleia [Cymopoleia], so at the very least this giant was a son-*in-law* of the King of the Sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a lost epic called the *Titanomachy* which seems to have treated some of the characters from the *Theogony* differently from Hesiod's placement of their allegiances in his account of the War of the Titans. Referring to this lost *Titanomachy*, the scholion on Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautica* 1.1165, says that Aigaion was a son of Pontos (the Sea) and Gaia (the Earth), that he lived in the Sea, and that he fought on the side of the Titans against Zeus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cinaithon, another early poet who knew of this giant's double name,&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; says that Aigaion was defeated by Poseidon.&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; In some instances it seems that Aigaion and Briareos are not necessarily the same character and that perhaps two separate personages were fused into this one, who we eventually know best as a son of the *Sky* (Ouranos [Uranus]) and the Earth, rather than of the Sea and the Earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But even in the *Theogony*, which simply calls him Briareos (or Obriareos), Poseidon specifically singles him out among his triplet brothers in order to make him his son-in-law &quot;because he was good&quot; or &quot;goodly.&quot; In some sense or another there was something special about him among the Hundred-Handers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Language Distinction Between the Gods and Mortals**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The same sort of double name ascribed to Aigaion-Briareos is given to the main river of Troy in *Iliad* 20. This river was a god whose fellow deities called Xanthos [Xanthus] but whom mortals referred to as Skamandros [Scamander]. The same footnote of Leaf's *Iliad* book, mentioned above, takes note of these double names and comments:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The natural supposition would be that the 'divine' words are archaic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; survivals, perhaps from an older race. It is sometimes said that the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; divine name has usually a clearer meaning than the human, and that the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greeks therefore regarded their own tongue as divine, and others as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the languages of mere men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Leaf, though, goes on to say that this is the case only with one other example, as well as, perhaps the Xanthos-Skamandros *Iliad* quote, &quot;which, however, look like different renderings of the same foreign word.&quot; He goes on to mention that the Pelasgian Hermes was called Imbros [Imbrus], apparently understanding this to be an earlier, pre-Greek version of this deity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Roman poet Ovid, in Book 11 of his *Metamorphoses*, has a similar thing to say about one of the numerous minor gods who personify dreams.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The gods have named him Icelus; here below the tribe of mortals call&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him Phobetor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems clear that Ovid does *not* mean to say that Latin is the language of the gods. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As with Xanthos/Skamandros and Aigaion/Briareos, this is rather a case, I think, of the poets in question attempting to add verisimilitude and realism to their storytelling. I interpret the idea here to be that the gods have their own language that they speak and that: &quot;Now I, as the narrator, am going to mention a couple of naming conventions as examples of how that divine language differs from that of us mortals [a form of Ancient Greek in Homer's case; Latin in Ovid's case].&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If this assessment is correct then it means that each deity has his own divine name as well as a &quot;human&quot; one. It would, however, detract from the main point, i.e. moving the story along, to spend time revealing (or rather *inventing*?) an extra fantasy-fiction-style set of names for more than one or two of them. (These works are generally otherwise chock-full of cult titles and special epithets for the gods, and the etymologies of these are almost always something less otherworldly than them being part of a divine language.)    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Page 107, from Ch. 8, &quot;Writing Local History: Archemachus and His *Euboika*&quot;, by Sławomir Sprawski, in *The Children of Herodotus: Greek and Roman Historiography and Related Genres*, ed. Jakub Pigoń (2008).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. Page 69 of *Early Greek Mythography, Vol. 2: Commentary*, by Robert L. Fowler (2013).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. The *Theogony* (Lines 820ff) implies that the gods do have their own language, which the immense, many-headed, fire-breathing monster Typhoeus has the ability to speak, in addition to emitting &quot; every sort of horrible sound&quot; such as &quot;the sound of a bellowing bull... or again like a lion shameless in cruelty, or again it was like the barking of dogs, a wonder to listen to, or again he would whistle so the tall mountains re-echoed to it.&quot;&lt;/sub&gt; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18869" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5639" RevisionGUID="35927d9f-0f3f-4589-b34e-74490c1f5983" CreationDate="2019-05-14T22:43:28.720" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected a detail" Text="**Son of Aigaios?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as English translations of the *Iliad* go, there is a rather unique interpretation of the word Αἰγαίων᾽ in Richmond Alexander Lattimore's 1951 translation of the *Iliad* (specifically Book 1, Line 404 in this case). A straight transliteration thereof would give us &quot;Aigaion&quot;. English translations tend to then Latinise this into &quot;Aegaeon&quot; (such as it is in your Question). In Lattimore's version:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that creature the gods name Briareos, but all men Aigaios' son, but he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is far greater in strength than his father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is actually a somewhat ingenious and quite legitimate way to interpret the giant's &quot;human&quot; name. Compare how, in the line immediately following, Zeus is referred to by one of his common epithets, *Kronion* [Cronion], which, as we know, indicates &quot;Son of Kronos [*Cronus*]&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On his [Poetry in Translation website](https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad1.php#anchor_Toc328052752), A.S. Kline translates the last clause of Line 404 to read that &quot;Aegaeon&quot; is &quot;mightier than his father Poseidon&quot;. The word &quot;Poseidon&quot; actually does not appear in this line of the Greek text from which it is being translated, nor do I know of any ancient source that explicitly says anything about this giant being a son of Poseidon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his book &quot;The *Iliad*, Edited with Apparatus Criticus, Prolegomena, Notes, and Appendices&quot; (1900), Walter Leaf says, in Footnote 403 on Page 32, that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The father of Briareus was, according to the legend, Poseidon, who was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; himself sometimes called *Αἰγαίων* or *Αἰγαῖος*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reference is vague as to the source of this &quot;legend&quot; but there is indeed the citation by Strabo, in Book 9 of his *Geography*, that Poseidon was called Aigaios at Aigai [Aegae] in Euboia [Euboea], where he had a temple under this name, which presumably denotes him as Poseidon &quot;Of [the City of] Aigai&quot;. Book 13 of the *Iliad* says that Poseidon lived in a palace under the Sea at this Aigai (see also *Odyssey* 5.381). Lycophron does refer to Poseidon as *Aigaio**n*** in his poem *Alexandra* (135).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Hesiod's *Theogony*, Briareus was married to Poseidon's daughter Kymopoleia [Cymopoleia], so at the very least this giant was a son-*in-law* of the King of the Sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a lost epic called the *Titanomachy* which seems to have treated some of the characters from the *Theogony* differently from Hesiod's placement of their allegiances in his account of the War of the Titans. Referring to this lost *Titanomachy*, the scholion on Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautica* 1.1165, says that Aigaion was a son of Pontos (the Sea) and Gaia (the Earth), that he lived in the Sea, and that he fought on the side of the Titans against Zeus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cinaithon, another early poet who knew of this giant's double name,&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; says that Aigaion was defeated by Poseidon.&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; In some instances it seems that Aigaion and Briareos are not necessarily the same character and that perhaps two separate personages were fused into this one, who we eventually know best as a son of the *Sky* (Ouranos [Uranus]) and the Earth, rather than of the Sea and the Earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But even in the *Theogony*, which simply calls him Briareos (or Obriareos), Poseidon specifically singles him out among his triplet brothers in order to make him his son-in-law &quot;because he was good&quot; or &quot;goodly.&quot; In some sense or another there was something special about him among the Hundred-Handers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Language Distinction Between the Gods and Mortals**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The same sort of double name ascribed to Aigaion-Briareos is given to the main river of Troy in *Iliad* 20. This river was a god whose fellow deities called Xanthos [Xanthus] but whom mortals referred to as Skamandros [Scamander]. The same footnote of Leaf's *Iliad* book, mentioned above, takes note of these double names and comments:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The natural supposition would be that the 'divine' words are archaic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; survivals, perhaps from an older race. It is sometimes said that the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; divine name has usually a clearer meaning than the human, and that the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greeks therefore regarded their own tongue as divine, and others as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the languages of mere men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Leaf, though, goes on to say that this is the case only with one other example, as well as, perhaps the Xanthos-Skamandros *Iliad* quote, &quot;which, however, look like different renderings of the same foreign word.&quot; He goes on to mention that the Pelasgian Hermes was called Imbros [Imbrus], apparently understanding this to be an earlier, pre-Greek version of this deity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Roman poet Ovid, in Book 11 of his *Metamorphoses*, has a similar thing to say about one of the numerous minor gods who personify dreams.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The gods have named him Icelus; here below the tribe of mortals call&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him Phobetor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems clear that Ovid does *not* mean to say that Latin is the language of the gods. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As with Xanthos/Skamandros and Aigaion/Briareos, this is rather a case, I think, of the poets in question attempting to add verisimilitude and realism to their storytelling. I interpret the idea here to be that the gods have their own language that they speak and that: &quot;Now I, as the narrator, am going to mention a couple of naming conventions as examples of how that divine language differs from that of us mortals [a form of Ancient Greek in Homer's case; Latin in Ovid's case].&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If this assessment is correct then it means that each deity has his own divine name as well as a &quot;human&quot; one. It would, however, detract from the main point, i.e. moving the story along, to spend time revealing (or rather *inventing*?) an extra fantasy-fiction-style set of names for more than one or two of them. (These works are generally otherwise chock-full of cult titles and special epithets for the gods, and the etymologies of these are almost always something less otherworldly than them being part of a divine language.)    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Page 107, from Ch. 8, &quot;Writing Local History: Archemachus and His *Euboika*&quot;, by Sławomir Sprawski, in *The Children of Herodotus: Greek and Roman Historiography and Related Genres*, ed. Jakub Pigoń (2008).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. Page 69 of *Early Greek Mythography, Vol. 2: Commentary*, by Robert L. Fowler (2013).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. The *Theogony* (Lines 820ff) implies that the gods do have their own language, which the immense, many-headed, fire-breathing monster Typhoeus has the ability to speak, in addition to emitting &quot; every sort of horrible sound&quot; such as &quot;the sound of a bellowing bull... or again like a lion shameless in cruelty, or again it was like the barking of dogs, a wonder to listen to, or again he would whistle so the tall mountains re-echoed to it.&quot;&lt;/sub&gt; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18870" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5640" RevisionGUID="a807b26c-b8f8-47d5-9586-4bc46f51eac1" CreationDate="2019-05-15T02:53:40.710" UserId="2682" Text="The quoted passage informs us that Thetis did not directly intervene against Poseidon, Hera and Athena, who, indeed, yes, should have been more powerful than she. A scholion on Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautica* cites Ion of Chios as saying that it was from the sea that Thetis sent Aegaeon &quot;up to protect Zeus&quot;. Your quote says that the hundred-handed monster merely had to sit next to Zeus in order to halt the attempt on the sky-god's freedom, the conspirators now too scared to try anything.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ovid's *Metamorphoses* says that Aegaeon was a sea-god, and your *Iliad* quote implies a close connection between him and Thetis. On his [Poetry in Translation website](https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad1.php#anchor_Toc328052752), A.S. Kline seems to build on Richmond Alexander Lattimore's translation (1951) of this portion of the *Iliad*, in which Lattimore translates the word Αἰγαίων᾽ as meaning the &quot;Son of Aegaeus&quot;. Kline's translation renders the passage so that the monster whom men call Aegaeon is &quot;mightier than his father Poseidon&quot;. Even though the word &quot;Poseidon&quot; actually does not appear in this line of the Greek text from which it is being translated, Aegaeus was incidentally a cult title of Poseidon, from the city where *Iliad* 13 says he lived in a palace under the sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Hesiod's *Theogony*, where this giant is called simply Briareus, or Obriareus, he antedates Poseidon and is this god's uncle, although by the end of the poem he has become Poseidon's son-in-law also. Briareus and his two triplet brothers are here repeatedly described as superlatively powerful: &quot;irresistible was the stubborn strength that was in their great forms&quot;, and that they possess &quot;unconquerable&quot; and &quot;overwhelming&quot; strength. Apollodorus says that &quot;They were unsurpassed in both size and power&quot;. With all this at their disposal it was easy for them to help Zeus win the War of the Titans. And as far as Homer is concerned, it takes merely the *appearance* of just one of these humongous entities to frighten off some of the powerful deities, such as Poseidon, Hera and Athena are.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for further detail on the story of trying to bind Zeus, Timothy Gantz breaks it down as follows in his book *Early Greek Myth: A Guide to Literary and Artistic Sources* (1993:59):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This story survives only in the *Iliad*, and leaves much to be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; explained (for example, what the conspirators might have hoped to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; accomplish); if it is not a spontaneous creation of Homer, it *could*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; refer to a time earlier in the Trojan War, when the gods in question&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (these are the Achaian supporters) plotted to gain the advantage for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their own side. Ion of Chios seems to have told the story as well, or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; at least mentioned the summoning of Aigaion [*Aegaeon*] to Olympos&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [*Olympus*] by Thetis (741 *PMG*); we cannot say whether he had other&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sources besides Homer. Though the *Iliad* scholia also reflect&#xD;&#xA;&gt; puzzlement, the A group recounts Didymos' story that Hera, Poseidon,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Athena, and Apollo plotted against Zeus because of his high-handedness&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and outspoken nature; when Aigaion saved him he hung up Hera in her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; own chains and bound Poseidon and Apollo to serve Laomedon (ΣA *`Il.`*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1.399). The b and T groups also know this last part, and add that some scholars actually substituted Apollo's name for Athena's in the text,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on the grounds that she would not threaten the father to whom she was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; so close. But most of their commentary is devoted to an allegorical&#xD;&#xA;&gt; explanation of the conspiracy, suggesting that they had few real myths&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to fall back on. In the *Iliad* itself, we should note, Hera's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; suspension in air stems from an entirely different matter, that of her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; driving Herakles [*Heracles*] to Kos [*Cos*] in a storm." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18871" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5641" RevisionGUID="e5691892-1dab-44b2-bcc6-5b84e0c02116" CreationDate="2019-05-15T12:34:13.710" UserId="6021" Text="According to [Project Britain's British Life and Culture](http://projectbritain.com/superstitions.htm) it is lucky to touch wood: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lucky to **touch wood**. We touch; knock on wood, to make something come true.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where does this superstition come from?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18872" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5641" RevisionGUID="e5691892-1dab-44b2-bcc6-5b84e0c02116" CreationDate="2019-05-15T12:34:13.710" UserId="6021" Text="Why is it lucky to touch or knock on wood?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18873" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5641" RevisionGUID="e5691892-1dab-44b2-bcc6-5b84e0c02116" CreationDate="2019-05-15T12:34:13.710" UserId="6021" Text="|superstition|european-folklore|british|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18874" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4808" RevisionGUID="dc5f24f3-1324-47e5-820f-c9709b26857f" CreationDate="2019-05-15T18:24:08.167" UserId="2892" Comment="added 79 characters in body" Text="In Hesiod's *Theogony* Cerberus was the offspring of Echidna and Typhon (on the other hand, [Hesiod did call him fifty-headed][1], so). To back this story up, note that Euphorion of Chalcis described him as having eyes that flashed like the volcanic Mount Etna. Why would this back anything up? Because traditionally, Typhon either resided in Tartarus *or* was buried under Mt. Etna, and his occasional struggles to get free of his prison were volcanic eruptions. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So we therefore have that Cerberus was the offspring of Echidna and Typhon. From here there are really no clues that indicate how it got to Hades, but I have an educated guess or two. If Typhon was stuck in Tartarus, then Hades probably saw Cerberus and fetched him for his own use. Another possibility: Cerberus wasn't the only multi-headed guard dog born of Echidna; the other, Orthrus, guarded the cattle of Geryon, so perhaps Hades was tipped off to the existence of multiheaded guard dogs by Orthrus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hes.%20Th.%20311" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18875" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5642" RevisionGUID="b21959dc-61e3-43ac-a486-315e269f6354" CreationDate="2019-05-15T18:43:55.893" UserId="5726" Text="Seamen/sailors in the 17th century would sometimes knock with their hands or tools on the wooden hull of their ship to listen for [woodworm][1] or rot, hearing a solid sound coming from wood in the hull would mean it was good to go(or ship shape)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When sailors were having a conversation and they would talk about good luck the sailors would sometimes say to one another that they needed to touch wood. (implying the ship ofcourse) &#xD;&#xA;This good luck could also be referring to the fact they made the journey this far on good terms and where hoping that their ship would finish its voyage fast and that their ship's hull would stay whole and strong. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In my country (the Netherlands) this superstition is also deeply embedded into our culture and we call it &quot;afkloppen&quot;. At first i thought this was mostly because my country has a deep naval tradition spanning back some centuries. &#xD;&#xA;Looking further I found that most countries in Europe (and after looking at [Wikipedia][2] countries all over the world) have some sort of superstition/ritual implying that the knocking on or touching of wood seems to be a way of bringing good luck or to not &quot;tempt fate&quot;([jinx][3]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia says that its rooted in German folklore but they are missing the citations needed to further investigate this claim. There is probably someone on this site that might be able to answer this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodworm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knocking_on_wood&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinx" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18876" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5643" RevisionGUID="1fd84e44-a8fc-4305-8a1d-91dbc258a08c" CreationDate="2019-05-16T06:51:19.423" UserId="6053" Text="Are there any stories from Norse mythology, where a person has to face a fear and is rewarded for it/succeeds?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All that springs to mind is Tyr/Fenrir story, where Tyr puts his hand in the mouth of Fenrir, knowing he will lose it - for a greater good. But that is not really about fear, more about sacrifice for a greater good." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18877" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5643" RevisionGUID="1fd84e44-a8fc-4305-8a1d-91dbc258a08c" CreationDate="2019-05-16T06:51:19.423" UserId="6053" Text="What stories from Norse mythology deals with fear?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18878" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5643" RevisionGUID="1fd84e44-a8fc-4305-8a1d-91dbc258a08c" CreationDate="2019-05-16T06:51:19.423" UserId="6053" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18879" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5642" RevisionGUID="fb7d67de-80ce-41b3-bc38-4c687c51476a" CreationDate="2019-05-16T19:26:59.890" UserId="5726" Comment="improved answer and formatting" Text="To make sure your vessel is seaworthy.&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Seamen/sailors in the 17th century would sometimes knock with their hands or tools on the wooden hull of their ship to listen for [woodworm][1] or rot, hearing a solid sound coming from wood in the hull would mean it was good to go(or ship shape)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For continuing your good luck streak&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When sailors were having a conversation and they would talk about good luck the sailors would sometimes say to one another that they needed to touch wood. (implying the ship ofcourse) &#xD;&#xA;This good luck could also be referring to the fact they made the journey this far on good terms and where hoping that their ship would finish its voyage fast and that their ship's hull would stay whole and strong. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In my own culture&#xD;&#xA;-----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In my country (the Netherlands) this superstition is also deeply embedded into our culture and we call it &quot;afkloppen&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Afkloppen* of *aftikken* is een vorm van volksgeloof en een ritueel waarbij oorspronkelijk op **ongeverfd** hout wordt getikt, om daardoor mogelijk ongeluk af te wenden, wanneer men zich verheugt over genoten geluk of wanneer iets geprezen wordt. &lt;sub&gt;[dutch wiki on &quot;afkloppen&quot;][2]'Afkloppen, aftikken', in: Folkloristisch Woordenboek van Nederland en Vlaams België/ K. ter Laan, 1949, pp. 7.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Translated this loosely means *Afkloppen* or *aftikken* is a form of folklore and a ritual which originally meant that you needed to knock or tap on a piece of **unpainted** wood to ward off bad luck, especially when you already had a string of good luck and would like that good luck to continue. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tempting fate&#xD;&#xA;--------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At first i thought this was mostly because my country has a deep naval tradition (along with some reasonable amount of European countries) spanning back some centuries. &#xD;&#xA;Looking further I found that most countries in Europe (and after looking at [Wikipedia][3] countries all over the world) have some sort of superstition/ritual implying that the knocking on or touching of wood seems to be a way of bringing good luck or to not &quot;tempt fate&quot;([jinx][4]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia says that its rooted in German folklore but they are missing the citations needed to further investigate this claim. There is probably someone on this site that might be able to answer this. If anyone has some sources I would be happy to investigate this further&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodworm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afkloppen&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knocking_on_wood&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinx" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18880" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5644" RevisionGUID="073dae77-ba0d-454f-89e4-bf268e7902c1" CreationDate="2019-05-17T07:33:49.460" UserId="4021" Text="Is there any writen reference to that word? I've been looking to put it in futhark, but apparently there is a debate about its origin(bear skin or shirtless). So, how would they write it down(younger futhark I guess)? Is there any reference to the word in text from that period?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18881" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5644" RevisionGUID="073dae77-ba0d-454f-89e4-bf268e7902c1" CreationDate="2019-05-17T07:33:49.460" UserId="4021" Text="&quot;Berserker&quot; In the sagas" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18882" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5644" RevisionGUID="073dae77-ba0d-454f-89e4-bf268e7902c1" CreationDate="2019-05-17T07:33:49.460" UserId="4021" Text="|norse|runes|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18885" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5646" RevisionGUID="fdb797b3-ba6b-414a-a72d-fd777a7d5f6d" CreationDate="2019-05-18T12:14:48.743" UserId="57" Text="You might find the story of [Prometheus][1], the Titan god of forethought, interesting. Prometheus defied the Olympians, stole fire from Zeus and gifted it to humanity. It does not get any more anti-authority than that! And if I'm not horribly mistaken (this is strictly from memory), Mikhael Bakunin was particularly fond of the story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's one version of the story, from Hesiod's *Works and Days*: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For the gods keep hidden from men the means of life. Else you would easily do work enough in a day to supply you for a full year even without working; soon would you put away your rudder over the smoke, and the fields worked by ox and sturdy mule would run to waste. But Zeus in the anger of his heart hid it, because Prometheus the crafty deceived him; therefore he planned sorrow and mischief against men. He hid fire; but that the noble son of Iapetus stole again for men from Zeus the counsellor in a hollow fennel-stalk, so that Zeus who delights in thunder did not see it. But afterwards Zeus who gathers the clouds said to him in anger: “Son of Iapetus, surpassing all in cunning, you are glad that you have outwitted me and stolen fire—a great plague to you yourself and to men that shall be. But I will give men as the price for fire an evil thing in which they may all be glad of heart while they embrace their own destruction.” &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Hesiod. The Homeric Hymns and Homerica with an English Translation by Hugh G. Evelyn-White. Works and Days. Cambridge, MA.,Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1914.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The &quot;evil thing&quot; Zeus gave men was [Pandora's jar][2]. He further punished Prometheus by binding him to a rock and having an eagle feed on his liver. The Titan's liver would grow back overnight to be eaten again the next day. Interestingly, this might suggest that the ancient Greeks were aware of the liver's regenerative abilities. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18886" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5646" RevisionGUID="56ff79a2-ca68-4206-9791-09136bdaf52f" CreationDate="2019-05-18T12:28:52.577" UserId="57" Comment="added 251 characters in body" Text="If memory serves, Mikhael Bakunin was particularly fond of the story of [Prometheus][1], the Titan of forethought. Prometheus defied the Olympians (the ruling class), stole fire from Zeus (the king) and gifted it to humanity. It does not get any more anti-authority than that! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's one version of the myth, from Hesiod's *Works and Days*: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For the gods keep hidden from men the means of life. Else you would easily do work enough in a day to supply you for a full year even without working; soon would you put away your rudder over the smoke, and the fields worked by ox and sturdy mule would run to waste. But Zeus in the anger of his heart hid it, because Prometheus the crafty deceived him; therefore he planned sorrow and mischief against men. He hid fire; but that the noble son of Iapetus stole again for men from Zeus the counsellor in a hollow fennel-stalk, so that Zeus who delights in thunder did not see it. But afterwards Zeus who gathers the clouds said to him in anger: “Son of Iapetus, surpassing all in cunning, you are glad that you have outwitted me and stolen fire—a great plague to you yourself and to men that shall be. But I will give men as the price for fire an evil thing in which they may all be glad of heart while they embrace their own destruction.” &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Hesiod. The Homeric Hymns and Homerica with an English Translation by Hugh G. Evelyn-White. Works and Days. Cambridge, MA.,Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1914.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The &quot;evil thing&quot; Zeus gave men was [Pandora's jar][2], a jar that contained every evil there is (but also hope). Prometheus was also severely punished. Zeus bound him on a rock and had an eagle feed on his liver. The Titan's liver would grow back overnight&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; to be eaten again the next day. The hero [Heracles][3] eventually saved Prometheus when he came across him on his way to steal the apples of the Hesperides.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; Interestingly, this might suggest that the ancient Greeks were aware of the liver's regenerative abilities.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heracles" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18887" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5647" RevisionGUID="d52287fd-aaf3-4907-bb35-05e79fccdb8b" CreationDate="2019-05-18T12:52:02.527" UserId="57" Text="In *Odyssey 8.215* Odysseus briefly brags about his archery skills to the Phaeacians:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For in all things I am no weakling, even in all the contests that are practised among men. Well do I know how to handle the polished bow, and ever would I be the first to shoot and smite my man in the throng of the foe, even though many comrades stood by me and were shooting at the men. Only Philoctetes excelled me with the bow in the land of the Trojans, when we Achaeans shot. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Homer. The Odyssey with an English Translation by A.T. Murray, PH.D. in two volumes. Cambridge, MA., Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann, Ltd. 1919.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I could not find any instance in either the Homeric epics where Odysseus actually uses a bow in combat. However, given his statements to the Phaeacians, I think it's safe to say that the more observant of Homer's audience would recognize the story was reaching closure once the bard started singing of Penelope's plan for an archery contest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18888" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5646" RevisionGUID="76596ba3-4c1d-49db-88fb-2a7274f32e03" CreationDate="2019-05-18T12:54:17.037" UserId="57" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="If memory serves, Mikhael Bakunin was particularly fond of the story of [Prometheus][1], the Titan of forethought. Prometheus defied the Olympians (the ruling class), stole fire from Zeus (the king) and gifted it to humanity. It does not get any more anti-authority than that! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's one version of the myth, from Hesiod's *Works and Days*: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For the gods keep hidden from men the means of life. Else you would easily do work enough in a day to supply you for a full year even without working; soon would you put away your rudder over the smoke, and the fields worked by ox and sturdy mule would run to waste. But Zeus in the anger of his heart hid it, because Prometheus the crafty deceived him; therefore he planned sorrow and mischief against men. He hid fire; but that the noble son of Iapetus stole again for men from Zeus the counsellor in a hollow fennel-stalk, so that Zeus who delights in thunder did not see it. But afterwards Zeus who gathers the clouds said to him in anger: “Son of Iapetus, surpassing all in cunning, you are glad that you have outwitted me and stolen fire—a great plague to you yourself and to men that shall be. But I will give men as the price for fire an evil thing in which they may all be glad of heart while they embrace their own destruction.” &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Hesiod. The Homeric Hymns and Homerica with an English Translation by Hugh G. Evelyn-White. Works and Days. Cambridge, MA.,Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1914.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The &quot;evil thing&quot; Zeus gave men was [Pandora's jar][2], a jar that contained every evil there is (but also hope). Prometheus was also severely punished. Zeus bound him on a rock and had an eagle feed on his liver. The Titan's liver would grow back overnight&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; to be eaten again the next day. The hero [Heracles][3] eventually saves Prometheus when he comes across him on his way to steal the apples of the Hesperides.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; Interestingly, this might suggest that the ancient Greeks were aware of the liver's regenerative abilities.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heracles" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18889" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5633" RevisionGUID="ce5c10a8-a24c-4992-9a94-414241c1a27b" CreationDate="2019-05-18T12:55:26.227" UserId="57" Comment="added 4 characters in body; edited title" Text="Most mythologies that I read are used to justify the power structures in society. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any that instead preach democracy, anti-authority, pro-education, or free love?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18890" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5633" RevisionGUID="ce5c10a8-a24c-4992-9a94-414241c1a27b" CreationDate="2019-05-18T12:55:26.227" UserId="57" Comment="added 4 characters in body; edited title" Text="Are there any stories or fables in mythology that have an anarchist message?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18892" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5649" RevisionGUID="4786de2f-a251-4ca9-a22f-a49ea2d10714" CreationDate="2019-05-18T14:57:55.897" UserId="5770" Text="[Sorry if this question isn't specific or not very legitimate. I've only been in this site for a while.]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've been getting into religion and mythology lately. I've been wondering, how do I analyze a mythology? How do I figure out what it's trying to say? How do I figure out what archetypes the myths have? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have been trying to look up archetypes of mythologies on google (Ex. what archetype is god? What archetype is Zeus? etc). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So any ideas on how to do that? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18893" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5649" RevisionGUID="4786de2f-a251-4ca9-a22f-a49ea2d10714" CreationDate="2019-05-18T14:57:55.897" UserId="5770" Text="How do I analyze a mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18894" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5649" RevisionGUID="4786de2f-a251-4ca9-a22f-a49ea2d10714" CreationDate="2019-05-18T14:57:55.897" UserId="5770" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18895" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5646" RevisionGUID="95651687-9a6a-4b4c-b1f5-f72dd772992c" CreationDate="2019-05-18T16:13:07.337" UserId="57" Comment="edited body" Text="If memory serves, Mikhail Bakunin was particularly fond of the story of [Prometheus][1], the Titan of forethought. Prometheus defied the Olympians (the ruling class), stole fire from Zeus (the king) and gifted it to humanity. It does not get any more anti-authority than that! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's one version of the myth, from Hesiod's *Works and Days*: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For the gods keep hidden from men the means of life. Else you would easily do work enough in a day to supply you for a full year even without working; soon would you put away your rudder over the smoke, and the fields worked by ox and sturdy mule would run to waste. But Zeus in the anger of his heart hid it, because Prometheus the crafty deceived him; therefore he planned sorrow and mischief against men. He hid fire; but that the noble son of Iapetus stole again for men from Zeus the counsellor in a hollow fennel-stalk, so that Zeus who delights in thunder did not see it. But afterwards Zeus who gathers the clouds said to him in anger: “Son of Iapetus, surpassing all in cunning, you are glad that you have outwitted me and stolen fire—a great plague to you yourself and to men that shall be. But I will give men as the price for fire an evil thing in which they may all be glad of heart while they embrace their own destruction.” &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Hesiod. The Homeric Hymns and Homerica with an English Translation by Hugh G. Evelyn-White. Works and Days. Cambridge, MA.,Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1914.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The &quot;evil thing&quot; Zeus gave men was [Pandora's jar][2], a jar that contained every evil there is (but also hope). Prometheus was also severely punished. Zeus bound him on a rock and had an eagle feed on his liver. The Titan's liver would grow back overnight&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; to be eaten again the next day. The hero [Heracles][3] eventually saves Prometheus when he comes across him on his way to steal the apples of the Hesperides.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; Interestingly, this might suggest that the ancient Greeks were aware of the liver's regenerative abilities.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heracles" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18896" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5650" RevisionGUID="b6873921-7ab9-402e-bf5b-66a649df9357" CreationDate="2019-05-20T08:51:39.757" UserId="6040" Text="A while back I found a small note (which seems to have been removed because of a lack of proper citation) on the Wikipedia article for Bedivere, speaking of his “role in Welsh tradition” and first mentioning:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Bedwyr is one of the earliest characters to be associated with the Arthurian cycle, appearing in a number of early Welsh texts in which he is described as Bedwyr Bedrydant (*Bedwyr of the Perfect Sinews*), a handsome, one-handed knight under Arthur's command. His father is given as Pedrawd or Bedrawd, and his children as Amhren and Eneuawg, both members of Arthur's court.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It went on to say:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He was known to use dark magic to seduce and subdue his foes with great skill and aggression. He was feared by many and although the townspeople frequently asked for his hanging, King Arthur still held him in high regards.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since I have read several places that Bedwyr wielded an enchanted spear, Cei (Kay) and Menw had magical powers (in *Culhwch ac Olwen*, if not elsewhere), and Gwalchmei (Gawain) has solar-powered strength in later stories (though I haven’t seen that traced back to Welsh tradition), it made me wonder what the source is for Bedwyr having “dark magic.” I would assume that if he ever had magic it has its origins in the Welsh stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any basis for Bedwyr having “dark magic” in Welsh tradition? Is this concept from a more modern retelling? Does it have no basis at all and was justifiably removed from the Wikipedia article?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18897" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5650" RevisionGUID="b6873921-7ab9-402e-bf5b-66a649df9357" CreationDate="2019-05-20T08:51:39.757" UserId="6040" Text="Did Bedwyr (Bedivere) ever have dark magic?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18898" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5650" RevisionGUID="b6873921-7ab9-402e-bf5b-66a649df9357" CreationDate="2019-05-20T08:51:39.757" UserId="6040" Text="|welsh|arthurian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18899" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5650" RevisionGUID="c302a1b1-adfc-4aa9-b16e-9d348b4fe018" CreationDate="2019-05-20T15:21:48.250" UserId="6040" Comment="added 256 characters in body" Text="A while back I found a small note (which seems to have been removed because of a lack of proper citation) on the Wikipedia article for Bedivere, speaking of his “role in Welsh tradition” and first mentioning:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Bedwyr is one of the earliest characters to be associated with the Arthurian cycle, appearing in a number of early Welsh texts in which he is described as Bedwyr Bedrydant (*Bedwyr of the Perfect Sinews*), a handsome, one-handed knight under Arthur's command. His father is given as Pedrawd or Bedrawd, and his children as Amhren and Eneuawg, both members of Arthur's court.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It went on to say:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He was known to use dark magic to seduce and subdue his foes with great skill and aggression. He was feared by many and although the townspeople frequently asked for his hanging, King Arthur still held him in high regards.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since I have read several places that Bedwyr wielded an enchanted spear, Cei (Kay) and Menw had magical powers (in *Culhwch ac Olwen*, if not elsewhere), and Gwalchmei (Gawain) has solar-powered strength in later stories (though I haven’t seen that traced back to Welsh tradition), it made me wonder what the source is for Bedwyr having “dark magic.” I would assume that if he ever had magic it has its origins in the Welsh stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any basis for Bedwyr having “dark magic” in Welsh tradition? Is this concept from a more modern retelling? Does it have no basis at all and was justifiably removed from the Wikipedia article?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Edit**: I only have these excerpts from the Bedivere article because I made a copy before it was edited out. The copy I have dates the edit “last modified on 12 April 2014 at 19:32” if that's helpful in some way. I was unable to find the information linked to a citation, however." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18900" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5650" RevisionGUID="a373ff32-78cb-42e5-b324-a0a1cc47a13c" CreationDate="2019-05-20T15:28:45.433" UserId="6040" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="A while back I found a small note (which seems to have been removed because of a lack of proper citation) on the Wikipedia article for Bedivere, speaking of his “role in Welsh tradition” and first mentioning:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Bedwyr is one of the earliest characters to be associated with the Arthurian cycle, appearing in a number of early Welsh texts in which he is described as Bedwyr Bedrydant (*Bedwyr of the Perfect Sinews*), a handsome, one-handed knight under Arthur's command. His father is given as Pedrawd or Bedrawd, and his children as Amhren and Eneuawg, both members of Arthur's court.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It went on to say:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He was known to use dark magic to seduce and subdue his foes with great skill and aggression. He was feared by many and although the townspeople frequently asked for his hanging, King Arthur still held him in high regards.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since I have read several places that Bedwyr wielded an enchanted spear, Cei (Kay) and Menw had magical powers (in *Culhwch ac Olwen*, if not elsewhere), and Gwalchmei (Gawain) has solar-powered strength in later stories (though I haven’t seen that traced back to Welsh tradition), it made me wonder what the source is for Bedwyr having “dark magic.” I would assume that if he ever had magic it has its origins in the Welsh stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any source for Bedwyr having “dark magic” in Welsh tradition? Is this concept from a more modern retelling? Does it have no basis at all and was justifiably removed from the Wikipedia article?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Edit**: I only have these excerpts from the Bedivere article because I made a copy before it was edited out. The copy I have dates the edit “last modified on 12 April 2014 at 19:32” if that's helpful in some way. I was unable to find the information linked to a citation, however." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18901" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5650" RevisionGUID="25bc132a-fe0b-4492-9b28-399a40232cb3" CreationDate="2019-05-20T15:42:47.007" UserId="6040" Comment="Added &quot;magic&quot; tag" Text="A while back I found a small note (which seems to have been removed because of a lack of proper citation) on the Wikipedia article for Bedivere, speaking of his “role in Welsh tradition” and first mentioning:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Bedwyr is one of the earliest characters to be associated with the Arthurian cycle, appearing in a number of early Welsh texts in which he is described as Bedwyr Bedrydant (*Bedwyr of the Perfect Sinews*), a handsome, one-handed knight under Arthur's command. His father is given as Pedrawd or Bedrawd, and his children as Amhren and Eneuawg, both members of Arthur's court.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It went on to say:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He was known to use dark magic to seduce and subdue his foes with great skill and aggression. He was feared by many and although the townspeople frequently asked for his hanging, King Arthur still held him in high regards.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since I have read several places that Bedwyr wielded an enchanted spear, Cei (Kay) and Menw had magical powers (in *Culhwch ac Olwen*, if not elsewhere), and Gwalchmei (Gawain) has solar-powered strength in later stories (though I haven’t seen that traced back to Welsh tradition), it made me wonder what the source is for Bedwyr having “dark magic.” I would assume that if he ever had magic it has its origins in the Welsh stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any source for Bedwyr having “dark magic” in Welsh tradition? Is this concept from a more modern retelling? Does it have no basis at all and was justifiably removed from the Wikipedia article?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Edit**: I only have these excerpts from the Bedivere article because I made a copy before it was edited out. The copy I have dates the edit “last modified on 12 April 2014 at 19:32” if that's helpful in some way. I was unable to find the information linked to a citation, however." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18902" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5650" RevisionGUID="25bc132a-fe0b-4492-9b28-399a40232cb3" CreationDate="2019-05-20T15:42:47.007" UserId="6040" Comment="Added &quot;magic&quot; tag" Text="|welsh|arthurian|magic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18903" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2884" RevisionGUID="cdd6d20e-c024-44a2-a45b-00d349233324" CreationDate="2019-05-20T20:36:35.343" UserId="4196" Comment="rephrased the question" Text="Who are the seven kings mentioned in the book of Revelation?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18904" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2884" RevisionGUID="cdd6d20e-c024-44a2-a45b-00d349233324" CreationDate="2019-05-20T20:36:35.343" Comment="Proposed by 4196 approved by 2682, 2807 edit id of 1735" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18905" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5651" RevisionGUID="7d0b1723-1b2d-4c0a-bdf8-dc9644101e71" CreationDate="2019-05-21T15:15:19.357" UserId="6040" Text="While not a complete list by any means, these are some unfamiliar name variants I could think of off the top of my head.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Generally, all forms of Arthur are too close to the original to fool anyone. The best I can think of is [**Artair**][1], the Scottish form.&#xD;&#xA;Though you could use a Welsh/Old Brythonic name like [**Arthmael**][2] (&quot;bear prince&quot;).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Morgana/Morgan le Fay is similarly difficult to obscure, since her earliest name is still [**Morgen**][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Guinevere has many variants. Some of the more unfamiliar (to most people) ones may be [**Guanhumara**][4] (Geoffrey of Monmouth's rendering in Latin), [**Wenneuereia**][5] (used by Gerald of Wales), and [**Findabair**][6] (the Irish cognate). [**Winlogee**][7] is presumably Guinevere in a carving on the archivolt of Modena Cathedral in Italy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For Gawain, there's [**Gwalchmei**][8] (Welsh), [**Gualguanus**][9] (Geoffrey of Monmouth's rendering in Latin), and [**Gauvain**][10] (French). [**Balbhuaidh**][11] is the Irish form.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Arnive**][12] was the name of Arthur's mother in [Wolfram von Eschenbach's *Parzival*][13]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Bedwyr**][14] is Bedivere's original Welsh name. [**Beduerus**][15] is Geoffrey of Monmouth's rendering in Latin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Galath**][16] and [**Lanslod**][17] for Galahad and Lancelot.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Medraut**][18] is one of [many variants][19] of Mordred. It's also the original.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Myrddin**][20] is the Welsh name for Merlin. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Instead of Camelot, there is a pretty long list of courts Arthur had: [**Caerleon**][21] (his capital [according to Geoffrey on Monmouth][22]), [**Mynyw**][23], [**Pen Rhionydd**][24], and [**Celliwig**][25]/[**Gelliwic**][26].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.behindthename.com/name/artair&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.behindthename.com/name/armel&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.behindthename.com/name/morgan-2&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://forvo.com/tag/guinevere/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinevere#Name&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Findabair&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maleagant&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://forvo.com/word/gwalchmei/&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://forvo.com/word/gualguanus/&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://forvo.com/word/gauvain/&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://forvo.com/word/balbhuaidh/&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://forvo.com/word/arnive/&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igraine&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://forvo.com/word/bedwyr/#cy&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://forvo.com/word/beduerus/&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/triads4.html&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://forvo.com/word/lanslod_lak/&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/text/arthurian-references-in-annales-cambriae&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://forvo.com/tag/mordred/&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://forvo.com/search/Myrddin/&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: https://forvo.com/word/caerleon/&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caerleon#Arthurian_legend&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: https://forvo.com/word/mynyw/&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: https://forvo.com/word/pen_rhionydd/&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: https://forvo.com/word/celliwig/&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: https://forvo.com/word/gelliwic/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18906" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5652" RevisionGUID="cf8f56a5-40ae-4351-a27b-2cac56c8e613" CreationDate="2019-05-21T15:18:06.510" UserId="6062" Text="Isn't there a variant of the myth where Herakles MUST convince Atlas to pick the apples FOR him?  As a kid I had the impression that 'only a god could pick them,' but it was never clear exactly why.  D'aulaire's (kids book) was the only source I found saying that the apples were 'apples of immortality' that actually caused death to any mortal who picked them off the tree.  A bit counterintuitive, but it seemed a crucial plot twist. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18907" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5651" RevisionGUID="450525b8-df81-45c8-958b-3fbfcb585830" CreationDate="2019-05-21T16:05:41.813" UserId="6040" Comment="Mild correction" Text="While not a complete list by any means, these are some unfamiliar name variants I could think of off the top of my head.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Generally, all forms of Arthur are too close to the original to fool anyone. The best I can think of is [**Artair**][1], the Scottish form.&#xD;&#xA;Though you could use a Welsh/Old Brythonic name like [**Arthmael**][2] (&quot;bear prince&quot;).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Morgana/Morgan le Fay is similarly difficult to obscure, since her earliest name is still [**Morgen**][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Guinevere has many variants. Some of the more unfamiliar ones may be [**Guanhumara**][4] (Geoffrey of Monmouth's rendering in Latin), [**Wenneuereia**][5] (used by Gerald of Wales), and [**Findabair**][6] (the Irish cognate). [**Winlogee**][7] is presumably Guinevere in a carving on the archivolt of Modena Cathedral in Italy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For Gawain, there's [**Gwalchmei**][8] (Welsh), [**Gualguanus**][9] (Geoffrey of Monmouth's rendering in Latin), and [**Gauvain**][10] (French). [**Balbhuaidh**][11] is the Irish form.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Arnive**][12] was the name of Arthur's mother in [Wolfram von Eschenbach's *Parzival*][13].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Bedwyr**][14] is Bedivere's original Welsh name. [**Beduerus**][15] is Geoffrey of Monmouth's rendering in Latin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Galath**][16] and [**Lanslod**][17] for Galahad and Lancelot.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Medraut**][18] is one of [many variants][19] of Mordred. It's also the original.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Myrddin**][20] is the Welsh name for Merlin. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In place of Camelot, there is a pretty decent list of courts Arthur had, in Welsh sources: [**Caerleon**][21] (his capital [according to Geoffrey on Monmouth][22]), [**Mynyw**][23], [**Pen Rhionydd**][24], and [**Celliwig**][25]/[**Gelliwic**][26].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.behindthename.com/name/artair&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.behindthename.com/name/armel&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.behindthename.com/name/morgan-2&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://forvo.com/tag/guinevere/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinevere#Name&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Findabair&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maleagant&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://forvo.com/word/gwalchmei/&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://forvo.com/word/gualguanus/&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://forvo.com/word/gauvain/&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://forvo.com/word/balbhuaidh/&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://forvo.com/word/arnive/&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igraine&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://forvo.com/word/bedwyr/#cy&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://forvo.com/word/beduerus/&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/triads4.html&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://forvo.com/word/lanslod_lak/&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/text/arthurian-references-in-annales-cambriae&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://forvo.com/tag/mordred/&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://forvo.com/search/Myrddin/&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: https://forvo.com/word/caerleon/&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caerleon#Arthurian_legend&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: https://forvo.com/word/mynyw/&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: https://forvo.com/word/pen_rhionydd/&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: https://forvo.com/word/celliwig/&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: https://forvo.com/word/gelliwic/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18908" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5651" RevisionGUID="fec1ee90-863a-4709-a054-78d3f8cd0c75" CreationDate="2019-05-21T17:02:16.527" UserId="6040" Comment="Fixing a link and a typo" Text="While not a complete list by any means, these are some unfamiliar name variants I could think of off the top of my head.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Generally, all forms of Arthur are too close to the original to fool anyone. The best I can think of is [**Artair**][1], the Scottish form.&#xD;&#xA;Though you could use a Welsh/Old Brythonic name like [**Arthmael**][2] (&quot;bear prince&quot;).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Morgana/Morgan le Fay is similarly difficult to obscure, since her earliest name is still [**Morgen**][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Guinevere has many variants. Some of the more unfamiliar ones may be [**Guanhumara**][4] (Geoffrey of Monmouth's rendering in Latin), [**Wenneuereia**][5] (used by Gerald of Wales), and [**Findabair**][6] (the Irish cognate). [**Winlogee**][7] is presumably Guinevere in a carving on the archivolt of Modena Cathedral in Italy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For Gawain, there's [**Gwalchmei**][8] (Welsh), [**Gualguanus**][9] (Geoffrey of Monmouth's rendering in Latin), and [**Gauvain**][10] (French). [**Balbhuaidh**][11] is the Irish form.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Arnive**][12] was the name of Arthur's mother in [Wolfram von Eschenbach's *Parzival*][13].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Bedwyr**][14] is Bedivere's original Welsh name. [**Beduerus**][15] is Geoffrey of Monmouth's rendering in Latin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Galath**][16] and [**Lanslod**][17] for Galahad and Lancelot.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Medraut**][18] is one of [many variants][19] of Mordred. It's also the original.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Myrddin**][20] is the Welsh name for Merlin. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In place of Camelot, there is a pretty decent list of courts Arthur had, in Welsh sources: [**Caerleon**][21] (his capital [according to Geoffrey of Monmouth][22]), [**Mynyw**][23], [**Pen Rhionydd**][24], and [**Celliwig**][25]/[**Gelliwic**][26].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.behindthename.com/name/artair&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.behindthename.com/name/armel&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.behindthename.com/name/morgan-2&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://forvo.com/tag/guinevere/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinevere#Name&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Findabair&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maleagant&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://forvo.com/word/gwalchmei/&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://forvo.com/word/gualguanus/&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://forvo.com/word/gauvain/&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://forvo.com/word/balbhuaidh/&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://forvo.com/word/arnive/&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igraine&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://forvo.com/search/Bedwyr/&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://forvo.com/word/beduerus/&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/triads4.html&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://forvo.com/word/lanslod_lak/&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/text/arthurian-references-in-annales-cambriae&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://forvo.com/tag/mordred/&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://forvo.com/search/Myrddin/&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: https://forvo.com/word/caerleon/&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caerleon#Arthurian_legend&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: https://forvo.com/word/mynyw/&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: https://forvo.com/word/pen_rhionydd/&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: https://forvo.com/word/celliwig/&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: https://forvo.com/word/gelliwic/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18909" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5650" RevisionGUID="510bd0b0-79fb-435a-a146-74df4fc9c1de" CreationDate="2019-05-21T17:08:59.383" UserId="6040" Comment="clarification" Text="A while back I found a small note (which seems to have been removed because of a lack of proper citation) on the Wikipedia article for Bedivere, speaking of his “role in Welsh tradition” and first mentioning:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Bedwyr is one of the earliest characters to be associated with the Arthurian cycle, appearing in a number of early Welsh texts in which he is described as Bedwyr Bedrydant (*Bedwyr of the Perfect Sinews*), a handsome, one-handed knight under Arthur's command. His father is given as Pedrawd or Bedrawd, and his children as Amhren and Eneuawg, both members of Arthur's court.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It went on to say:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He was known to use dark magic to seduce and subdue his foes with great skill and aggression. He was feared by many and although the townspeople frequently asked for his hanging, King Arthur still held him in high regards.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since I have read several places that Bedwyr wielded an enchanted spear, Cei (Kay) and Menw had magical powers (in *Culhwch ac Olwen*, if not elsewhere), and Gwalchmei (Gawain) has solar-powered strength in later stories (though I haven’t seen that traced back to Welsh tradition), it made me wonder what the source is for Bedwyr having “dark magic.” I would assume that if he ever had magic it has its origins in the Welsh stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any source for Bedwyr having “dark magic” in Welsh tradition? Is this concept from a more modern retelling? Does it have no basis at all and was justifiably removed from the Wikipedia article?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Edit**: I only have these excerpts from the Bedivere article because I made a copy before it was edited out. The copy I have dates the edit “last modified on 12 April 2014 at 19:32” if that's helpful in some way. I was unable to find the information linked to an external source, however." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18910" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5650" RevisionGUID="110e107d-2f20-479a-b265-468fc345f4b2" CreationDate="2019-05-21T19:00:41.247" UserId="6040" Comment="small correction" Text="A while back I found a small note (which seems to have been removed because of a lack of proper citation) on the Wikipedia article for Bedivere, speaking of his “role in Welsh tradition” and first mentioning:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Bedwyr is one of the earliest characters to be associated with the Arthurian cycle, appearing in a number of early Welsh texts in which he is described as Bedwyr Bedrydant (*Bedwyr of the Perfect Sinews*), a handsome, one-handed knight under Arthur's command. His father is given as Pedrawd or Bedrawd, and his children as Amhren and Eneuawg, both members of Arthur's court.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It went on to say:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He was known to use dark magic to seduce and subdue his foes with great skill and aggression. He was feared by many and although the townspeople frequently asked for his hanging, King Arthur still held him in high regards.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since I have read several places that Bedwyr wielded an enchanted lance, Cei (Kay) and Menw had magical powers (in *Culhwch ac Olwen*, if not elsewhere), and Gwalchmei (Gawain) has solar-powered strength in later stories (though I haven’t seen that traced back to Welsh tradition), it made me wonder what the source is for Bedwyr having “dark magic.” I would assume that if he ever had magic it has its origins in the Welsh stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any source for Bedwyr having “dark magic” in Welsh tradition? Is this concept from a more modern retelling? Does it have no basis at all and was justifiably removed from the Wikipedia article?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Edit**: I only have these excerpts from the Bedivere article because I made a copy before it was edited out. The copy I have dates the edit “last modified on 12 April 2014 at 19:32” if that's helpful in some way. I was unable to find the information linked to an external source, however." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18911" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5651" RevisionGUID="e96d5d13-104e-4cb6-a86b-3d1ead23811a" CreationDate="2019-05-22T04:38:57.150" UserId="6040" Comment="small correction" Text="While not a complete list by any means, these are some unfamiliar name variants I could think of off the top of my head.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Generally, all forms of Arthur are too close to the original to fool anyone. The best I can think of is [**Artair**][1], the Scottish form.&#xD;&#xA;Though you could use a Welsh/Old Brythonic name like [**Arthmael**][2] (&quot;bear prince&quot;).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Morgana/Morgan le Fay is similarly difficult to obscure, since her earliest name is still [**Morgen**][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Guinevere has many variants. Some of the more unfamiliar ones may be [**Guanhumara**][4] (Geoffrey of Monmouth's rendering in Latin), [**Wenneuereia**][5] (used by Gerald of Wales), and [**Findabair**][6] (the Irish cognate). [**Winlogee**][7] is presumably Guinevere in a carving on the archivolt of Modena Cathedral in Italy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For Gawain, there's [**Gwalchmei**][8] (Welsh), [**Gualguanus**][9] (Geoffrey of Monmouth's rendering in Latin), and [**Gauvain**][10] (French). [**Balbhuaidh**][11] is the Irish form.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Arnive**][12] was the name of Arthur's mother, Igraine, in [Wolfram von Eschenbach's *Parzival*][13].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Bedwyr**][14] is Bedivere's original Welsh name. [**Beduerus**][15] is Geoffrey of Monmouth's rendering in Latin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Galath**][16] and [**Lanslod**][17] for Galahad and Lancelot.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Medraut**][18] is one of [many variants][19] of Mordred. It's also the original.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Myrddin**][20] is the Welsh name for Merlin. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In place of Camelot, there is a pretty decent list of courts Arthur had, in Welsh sources: [**Caerleon**][21] (his capital [according to Geoffrey of Monmouth][22]), [**Mynyw**][23], [**Pen Rhionydd**][24], and [**Celliwig**][25]/[**Gelliwic**][26].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.behindthename.com/name/artair&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.behindthename.com/name/armel&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.behindthename.com/name/morgan-2&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://forvo.com/tag/guinevere/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinevere#Name&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Findabair&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maleagant&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://forvo.com/word/gwalchmei/&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://forvo.com/word/gualguanus/&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://forvo.com/word/gauvain/&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://forvo.com/word/balbhuaidh/&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://forvo.com/word/arnive/&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igraine&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://forvo.com/search/Bedwyr/&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://forvo.com/word/beduerus/&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/triads4.html&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://forvo.com/word/lanslod_lak/&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/text/arthurian-references-in-annales-cambriae&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://forvo.com/tag/mordred/&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://forvo.com/search/Myrddin/&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: https://forvo.com/word/caerleon/&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caerleon#Arthurian_legend&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: https://forvo.com/word/mynyw/&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: https://forvo.com/word/pen_rhionydd/&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: https://forvo.com/word/celliwig/&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: https://forvo.com/word/gelliwic/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18912" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5653" RevisionGUID="e6cba285-1124-445b-ac77-2cfa7a2433c3" CreationDate="2019-05-22T07:48:59.657" UserId="3230" Text="From Revelation 11 (KJ21):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks, standing before the God of the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who are these two witnesses?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18913" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5653" RevisionGUID="e6cba285-1124-445b-ac77-2cfa7a2433c3" CreationDate="2019-05-22T07:48:59.657" UserId="3230" Text="Who are the two witnesses in Revelation?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18914" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5653" RevisionGUID="e6cba285-1124-445b-ac77-2cfa7a2433c3" CreationDate="2019-05-22T07:48:59.657" UserId="3230" Text="|christianity|revelation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18919" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5650" RevisionGUID="3dffb21a-ee0e-40bd-a8b9-25ad0f4120bd" CreationDate="2019-05-22T11:51:58.757" UserId="6040" Comment="another reference" Text="A while back I found a small note (which seems to have been removed because of a lack of proper citation) on the Wikipedia article for Bedivere, speaking of his “role in Welsh tradition” and first mentioning:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Bedwyr is one of the earliest characters to be associated with the Arthurian cycle, appearing in a number of early Welsh texts in which he is described as Bedwyr Bedrydant (*Bedwyr of the Perfect Sinews*), a handsome, one-handed knight under Arthur's command. His father is given as Pedrawd or Bedrawd, and his children as Amhren and Eneuawg, both members of Arthur's court.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It went on to say:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He was known to use dark magic to seduce and subdue his foes with great skill and aggression. He was feared by many and although the townspeople frequently asked for his hanging, King Arthur still held him in high regards.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since I have read several places that Bedwyr wielded an enchanted lance, Cei (Kay) and Menw had magical powers (in *Culhwch ac Olwen*, if not elsewhere), and Gwalchmei (Gawain) has solar-powered strength, it made me wonder what the source is for Bedwyr having “dark magic.” I would assume that if he ever had magic it has its origins in the Welsh stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any source for Bedwyr having “dark magic” in Welsh tradition? Is this concept from a more modern retelling? Does it have no basis at all and was justifiably removed from the Wikipedia article?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Edit**: I only have these excerpts from the Bedivere article because I made a copy before it was edited out. The copy I have dates the edit “last modified on 12 April 2014 at 19:32” if that's helpful in some way. I was unable to find the information linked to an external source, however.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Update**: Did a few searches and found [another][1] reference to this sourceless dark magic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Some believe that the reason Bedivere was so skilled in fighting was because he secretly was a friend with a knight who was known for using dark magic. But the main argument supporting that he didn’t use dark magic, is that it was never written in text that he did.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wish there was a mention of a source text, or the name of this friend. The mystery continues.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://knightsirbedivere.weebly.com/introduction.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18920" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5642" RevisionGUID="c9842487-739b-49ab-bf18-a67a3dc6f357" CreationDate="2019-05-22T18:35:52.493" UserId="5726" Comment="formatted " Text="To make sure your vessel is seaworthy.&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Seamen/sailors in the 17th century would sometimes knock with their hands or tools on the wooden hull of their ship to listen for [woodworm][1] or rot, hearing a solid sound coming from wood in the hull would mean it was good to go(or ship shape)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For continuing your good luck streak&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When sailors were having a conversation and they would talk about good luck the sailors would sometimes say to one another that they needed to touch wood. (implying the ship ofcourse) &#xD;&#xA;This good luck could also be referring to the fact they made the journey this far on good terms and where hoping that their ship would finish its voyage fast and that their ship's hull would stay whole and strong. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In my own culture&#xD;&#xA;-----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In my country (the Netherlands) this superstition is also deeply embedded into our culture and we call it &quot;afkloppen&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Afkloppen* of *aftikken* is een vorm van volksgeloof en een ritueel waarbij oorspronkelijk op **ongeverfd hout** wordt getikt, om daardoor mogelijk ongeluk af te wenden, wanneer men zich verheugt over genoten geluk of wanneer iets geprezen wordt. &lt;sub&gt;[dutch wiki on &quot;afkloppen&quot;][2]'Afkloppen, aftikken', in: Folkloristisch Woordenboek van Nederland en Vlaams België/ K. ter Laan, 1949, pp. 7.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Translated this loosely means :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Afkloppen* or *aftikken* is a form of folklore and a ritual which originally meant that you needed to knock or tap on a piece of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **unpainted wood** to ward off bad luck, especially when you already had a string of good luck and would like that good luck to continue. &lt;sub&gt;[dutch wiki on &quot;afkloppen&quot;][2]'Afkloppen, aftikken', in: Folkloristisch Woordenboek van Nederland en Vlaams België/ K. ter Laan, 1949, pp. 7.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tempting fate&#xD;&#xA;--------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At first i thought this was mostly because my country has a deep naval tradition (along with some reasonable amount of European countries) spanning back some centuries. &#xD;&#xA;Looking further I found that most countries in Europe (and after looking at [Wikipedia][3] countries all over the world) have some sort of superstition/ritual implying that the knocking on or touching of wood seems to be a way of bringing good luck or to not &quot;tempt fate&quot;([jinx][4]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia says that its rooted in German folklore but they are missing the citations needed to further investigate this claim. There is probably someone on this site that might be able to answer this. If anyone has some sources I would be happy to investigate this further&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodworm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afkloppen&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knocking_on_wood&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinx" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18921" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5654" RevisionGUID="d956fadd-d065-40bd-b442-4ada2d7db71a" CreationDate="2019-05-22T20:51:30.590" UserId="57" Text="**Yes.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Athena (and Hera) lost the [Judgment of Paris][1] to Aphrodite:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [E.3.2] For one of these reasons Strife threw an apple as a prize of beauty to be contended for by Hera, Athena, and Aphrodite; and Zeus commanded Hermes to lead them to Alexander on Ida in order to be judged by him. And they promised to give Alexander gifts. Hera said that if she were preferred to all women, she would give him the kingdom over all men; and Athena promised victory in war, and Aphrodite the hand of Helen. And he decided in favour of Aphrodite51; and sailed away to Sparta with ships built by Phereclus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Apollodorus. The Library. Translated by Sir James George Frazer. Loeb Classical Library Volumes 121 &amp; 122. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1921.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you also count ties, she tied with Poseidon in their contest for patronage over Troezen: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [2.30.6] During his reign, they say, Athena and Poseidon disputed about the land, and after disputing held it in common, as Zeus commanded them to do. For this reason they worship both Athena, whom they name both Polias (Urban) and Sthenias (Strong), and also Poseidon, under the surname of King. And moreover their old coins have as device a trident and a face of Athena.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Pausanias. Description of Greece. Translated by Jones, W. H. S. and Omerod, H. A. Loeb Classical Library Volumes. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1918.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgement_of_Paris" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18923" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5656" RevisionGUID="d2ee6031-3319-4e65-8ce2-888a68c9e655" CreationDate="2019-05-23T08:29:10.347" UserId="57" Text="In the beginning of *Hrafnsmál* the valkyrie calls the raven &quot;the skull picker of Hymir&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hearken, noblemen, while I celebrate Harold the magnificent and his feats of arms. I will tell of the words which I heard spoken by a maiden fair and golden haired as she held converse with a raven. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The valkyrie prided herself on her wisdom ; — and the warlike maid took no pleasure in men, for she knew the language of birds. With white throat and sparkling eyes she greeted the skull picker of Hymir as he sat on a jutting ledge of rock, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'How is it with you, ye ravens? Whence are ye come with bloody beak at the dawning of day? Torn flesh is hanging from your talons, and a reek of carrion comes from your mouths. I doubt not that ye have passed the night amid a scene of carnage.' &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Anglo-Saxon and Norse Poems. Edited and translated by N. Kershaw.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is this a reference to the giant Hymir (and his unusually hard skull)? &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18924" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5656" RevisionGUID="d2ee6031-3319-4e65-8ce2-888a68c9e655" CreationDate="2019-05-23T08:29:10.347" UserId="57" Text="Why does the valkylie call the raven &quot;the skull picker of Hymir&quot; in Hrafnsmál?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18925" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5656" RevisionGUID="d2ee6031-3319-4e65-8ce2-888a68c9e655" CreationDate="2019-05-23T08:29:10.347" UserId="57" Text="|norse|hrafnsmal|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18928" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4683" RevisionGUID="547f10bf-3cbe-4907-867a-81801624ba25" CreationDate="2019-05-23T13:34:36.207" UserId="3230" Comment="deleted 55 characters in body" Text="I only know of one myth in which Athena lost. I talk of Arachne, a mortal that challenged Athena to a weaving competition. In one account, Athena won. In another, it was a tie and Arachne hung herself. In the third account, Arachne won. In all accounts Arachne was then turned into the first spider. In the first and third, it was her punishment. In the second, it was out of pity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, if you consider a tie a loss, Athena lost in two out of three accounts. But I'm looking for other myths apart from this one." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18931" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1915" RevisionGUID="29922ecb-967f-4d02-82bf-cf5ce67e755b" CreationDate="2019-05-23T13:56:54.063" UserId="3230" Comment="deleted 41 characters in body" Text="Looking at old forms of religion, aka totemism, is a good way for you to find animal gods. You can put some decent bets on the fact cavern paintings was religious in nature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And there are dozens of such gods:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- India: Hanuman is your first bet.&#xD;&#xA;- Egypt: Apis the sacred bull. Even Herodotus mention him and relate Cambyse II death for him killing Apis.&#xD;&#xA;- China: The Qilin, the Sacred Dragon, the Sacred Tiger, the Phoenix Phoenix bird. The Hu Jiang Jun, another sacred tiger of the Taoist. China is more than probably your first source for that!&#xD;&#xA;- Aztec: the Huehuecoyotl. Another big source for you. You heard about the Quetzalcoatl! Another beastie god. Even if malevolent!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18933" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5656" RevisionGUID="7583bcb4-5d92-4db1-889d-d0fc4adbb535" CreationDate="2019-05-23T14:18:07.583" UserId="5726" Comment="fixed typo in title" Text="Why does the valkyrie call the raven &quot;the skull picker of Hymir&quot; in Hrafnsmál?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18934" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5656" RevisionGUID="7583bcb4-5d92-4db1-889d-d0fc4adbb535" CreationDate="2019-05-23T14:18:07.583" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 3230, 57 edit id of 1736" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18935" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5658" RevisionGUID="7f062cba-6fab-425a-af61-d97c781d6320" CreationDate="2019-05-23T14:37:05.283" UserId="3230" Text="In the *Coptic Apocalypse of Paul*, Paul meets an &quot;old man&quot; in seventh heaven&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then we went up to the seventh heaven, and I saw an old man [...] light and whose garment was white. His throne, which is in the seventh heaven, was brighter than the sun by seven times. The old man spoke, saying to me, &quot;Where are you going, Paul? O blessed one and the one who was set apart from his mother`s womb.&quot; But I looked at the Spirit, and he was nodding his head, saying to me, &quot;Speak with him!&quot;. And I replied, saying to the old man, &quot;I am going to the place from which I came.&quot; And the old man responded to me, &quot;Where are you from?&quot; But I replied, saying, &quot;I am going down to the world of the dead in order to lead captive the captivity that was led captive in the captivity of Babylon.&quot; The old man replied to me saying, &quot;How will you be able to get away from me? Look and see the principalities and authorities.&quot; The Spirit spoke, saying, &quot;Give him the sign that you have, and he will open for you.&quot; And then I gave him the sign. He turned his face downwards to his creation and to those who are his own authorities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who is this old man? Is it god? If so, why isn't he in the ninth heaven? And why does he try to prevent Paul's ascent?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt; &lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; The Apocalypse of Paul. Translated by George W. MacRae and William R. Murdock&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18936" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5658" RevisionGUID="7f062cba-6fab-425a-af61-d97c781d6320" CreationDate="2019-05-23T14:37:05.283" UserId="3230" Text="Who is the old man in the Coptic Apocalypse of Paul?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18937" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5658" RevisionGUID="7f062cba-6fab-425a-af61-d97c781d6320" CreationDate="2019-05-23T14:37:05.283" UserId="3230" Text="|christianity|apocalypse-of-paul|new-testament-apocrypha|gnosticism|coptic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18940" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5651" RevisionGUID="899b49c6-c2f8-4760-9fa2-e31df6d1ec00" CreationDate="2019-05-23T17:44:22.487" UserId="6040" Comment="adding a name and link" Text="While not a complete list by any means, these are some unfamiliar name variants I could think of off the top of my head.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Generally, all forms of Arthur are too close to the original to fool anyone. The best I can think of is [**Artair**][1], the Scottish form.&#xD;&#xA;Though you could use a Welsh/Old Brythonic name like [**Arthmael**][2] (&quot;bear prince&quot;).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Morgana/Morgan le Fay is similarly difficult to obscure, since her earliest name is still [**Morgen**][3]. **Marguel** is the most unfamiliar form in [this list][4].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Guinevere has many variants. Some of the more unfamiliar ones may be [**Guanhumara**][5] (Geoffrey of Monmouth's rendering in Latin), [**Wenneuereia**][6] (used by Gerald of Wales), and [**Findabair**][7] (the Irish cognate). [**Winlogee**][8] is presumably Guinevere in a carving on the archivolt of Modena Cathedral in Italy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For Gawain, there's [**Gwalchmei**][9] (Welsh), [**Gualguanus**][10] (Geoffrey of Monmouth's rendering in Latin), and [**Gauvain**][11] (French). [**Balbhuaidh**][12] is the Irish form.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Arnive**][13] was the name of Arthur's mother, Igraine, in [Wolfram von Eschenbach's *Parzival*][14].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Bedwyr**][15] is Bedivere's original Welsh name. [**Beduerus**][16] is Geoffrey of Monmouth's rendering in Latin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Galath**][17] and [**Lanslod**][18] for Galahad and Lancelot.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Medraut**][19] is one of [many variants][20] of Mordred. It's also the original.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Myrddin**][21] is the Welsh name for Merlin. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In place of Camelot, there is a pretty decent list of courts Arthur had, in Welsh sources: [**Caerleon**][22] (his capital [according to Geoffrey of Monmouth][23]), [**Mynyw**][24], [**Pen Rhionydd**][25], and [**Celliwig**][26]/[**Gelliwic**][27].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.behindthename.com/name/artair&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.behindthename.com/name/armel&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.behindthename.com/name/morgan-2&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.nightbringer.se/a_morganlefay.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://forvo.com/tag/guinevere/&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinevere#Name&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Findabair&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maleagant&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://forvo.com/word/gwalchmei/&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://forvo.com/word/gualguanus/&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://forvo.com/word/gauvain/&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://forvo.com/word/balbhuaidh/&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://forvo.com/word/arnive/&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igraine&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://forvo.com/search/Bedwyr/&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://forvo.com/word/beduerus/&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/triads4.html&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://forvo.com/word/lanslod_lak/&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/text/arthurian-references-in-annales-cambriae&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://forvo.com/tag/mordred/&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: https://forvo.com/search/Myrddin/&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: https://forvo.com/word/caerleon/&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caerleon#Arthurian_legend&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: https://forvo.com/word/mynyw/&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: https://forvo.com/word/pen_rhionydd/&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: https://forvo.com/word/celliwig/&#xD;&#xA;  [27]: https://forvo.com/word/gelliwic/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18941" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5659" RevisionGUID="c9f18175-ba35-4c08-99c1-418bc0cc307b" CreationDate="2019-05-23T18:07:54.313" UserId="2892" Text="In his only interview, the author of *The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo* stated that [Pippi Longstocking][1] was the inspiration for the character of Lisbeth Salander.  This involved Lisbeth's genius and overall exceptional capabilities, including the ability to inflict violence more effectively than physically stronger adversaries.  There is also the factor that Lisbeth's father is a rogue/outlaw character, analogous to Pippi's [buccaneer][2] father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems that the character Hanna from the 2011 film and 2019 television series fits the template even more closely, being literally imbued with the superhuman strength that is Pippi's chief attribute.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Hanna's adoptive father is also a rogue/outlaw, having broken with the state and private interests that created Hannah in a secret program.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further, although the television series initially bases Hanna and her father in a forest in Poland, in the original film this location was Finland, part of Scandinavia. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm wondering if there are additional referenced I've missed, or additional thematic elements that support this idea.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Is Hanna a form of Pippi Longstocking?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pippi, Lisbeth &amp; Hanna fall into an archetype of the strong girl (aka the &quot;fearless girl&quot;):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pippi_Longstocking&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buccaneer&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/OuRin.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18942" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5659" RevisionGUID="c9f18175-ba35-4c08-99c1-418bc0cc307b" CreationDate="2019-05-23T18:07:54.313" UserId="2892" Text="Is Hanna (2011, 2019) a form of the modern folk hero Pippi Longstocking?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18943" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5659" RevisionGUID="c9f18175-ba35-4c08-99c1-418bc0cc307b" CreationDate="2019-05-23T18:07:54.313" UserId="2892" Text="|archetypes|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18944" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5659" RevisionGUID="4f09e2dc-e55e-46e0-b8c5-2807682b0227" CreationDate="2019-05-23T18:39:47.183" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body" Text="In his only interview, the author of *The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo* stated that [Pippi Longstocking][1] was the inspiration for the character of Lisbeth Salander.  This involved Lisbeth's genius and overall exceptional capabilities, including the ability to inflict violence more effectively than physically stronger adversaries.  There is also the factor that Lisbeth's father is a rogue/outlaw character, analogous to Pippi's [buccaneer][2] father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems that the character Hanna from the 2011 film and 2019 television series fits the template even more closely, being literally imbued with the superhuman strength that is Pippi's chief attribute.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hanna's adoptive father is also a rogue/outlaw, having broken with the state and private interests that created Hanna in a secret program.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further, although the television series initially bases Hanna and her father in a forest in Poland, in the original film this location was Finland, a Nordic country.  (Pippi is based in Sweden.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm wondering if there are additional referenced I've missed, or additional thematic elements that support this idea.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Is Hanna a form of Pippi Longstocking?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pippi, Lisbeth &amp; Hanna fall into an archetype of the strong girl (aka the &quot;fearless girl&quot;):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pippi_Longstocking&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buccaneer&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/OuRin.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18945" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5660" RevisionGUID="40d1cbfc-8eca-4f31-a1f2-7e4ff32ded12" CreationDate="2019-05-23T19:02:46.947" UserId="2892" Text="I see two main reasons:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. It is super-badass and Cuchulainn is an absolutely peerless warrior.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The whole cycle is filled with exaggerated feats by Cuchulainn and others.  As an example, Fergus Mac Roth ([Fergus mac Róich][1]) can chop the tops off of entire hills with a single stroke of his sword. So this outrageously extreme act is in keeping with the Irish tradition of wonderfully exaggerated feats that delight listeners.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. So that the Hero can die on his feet.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Norse tradition, warriors must die in battle to gain entrance to [Fólkvangr][2] or [Valhalla][3].  Although Cu is mortally wounded in battle, everyone is still too afraid of him to approach, even in his diminished state.  This means, as Cu weakens, he will likely die in repose, not standing.  Lashing himself to the pillar ensures he &quot;dies on his feet&quot;, unbowed unto death. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*There is a famous modern reference for this idea via Emiliano Zapata, some form of: [&quot;It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!&quot;][4]* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fergus_mac_R%C3%B3ich&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%B3lkvangr&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valhalla&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Emiliano_Zapata" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18948" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5661" RevisionGUID="0b3351a7-dd1b-4dda-985f-21f1bb385c4a" CreationDate="2019-05-23T20:05:57.093" UserId="57" Text="An early mention of the pool of Mnemosyne can be found in the is mentioned in the [Petelia Gold Tablet][1], an Orphic inscription from between 300-200 BC: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; You will find in the halls of Hades a spring on the left,  &#xD;&#xA;and standing by it, a glowing white cypress tree;  &#xD;&#xA;Do not approach this spring at all.  &#xD;&#xA;You will find another, from the lake of Memory  &#xD;&#xA;refreshing water flowing forth. But guardians are nearby.  &#xD;&#xA;Say: “I am the child of Earth and starry Heaven;  &#xD;&#xA;But my race is heavenly; and this you know yourselves.  &#xD;&#xA;I am parched with thirst and I perish; but give me quickly  &#xD;&#xA;refreshing water flowing forth from the lake of Memory.”  &#xD;&#xA;And then they will give you to drink from the divine spring,  &#xD;&#xA;And then you will celebrate? [rites? with the other] heroes.  &#xD;&#xA;This [is the ? … of Memory, when you are about] to die ..  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Wikipedia contributors. (2018, March 20). Petelia Gold Tablet. In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 19:57, May 23, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Petelia_Gold_Tablet&amp;oldid=831347660&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petelia_Gold_Tablet" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18949" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4591" RevisionGUID="8694691c-d36f-44d2-9834-428772e21eb1" CreationDate="2019-05-23T20:17:06.847" UserId="57" Comment="tried to clarify based on comments, not entirely sure I succeeded; edited tags" Text="In Greek mythology, there are two distinct ways to communicate with the dead:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- A [Nekyia][1] ([νέκυια][2]) is a ritual to summon the dead. An example of this is Odysseus in the Odyssey. &#xD;&#xA;- A [Katabasis][3] ([κατάβασις][4]) is a journey into the Underworld while still living. Heracles is one hero who did this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who did these things and what were their reasons? Was it personal? Did a god tell them to? Is it some labor (Heracles) they must complete? Or something else?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nekyia&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dne%2Fkuia&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katabasis&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkata%2Fbasis" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18950" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4591" RevisionGUID="8694691c-d36f-44d2-9834-428772e21eb1" CreationDate="2019-05-23T20:17:06.847" UserId="57" Comment="tried to clarify based on comments, not entirely sure I succeeded; edited tags" Text="Who visited the underworld or summoned ghosts and why?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18951" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="4591" RevisionGUID="8694691c-d36f-44d2-9834-428772e21eb1" CreationDate="2019-05-23T20:17:06.847" UserId="57" Comment="tried to clarify based on comments, not entirely sure I succeeded; edited tags" Text="|greek|underworld|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18952" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5661" RevisionGUID="633891e9-b183-4a04-9ed7-5ba2e372d72c" CreationDate="2019-05-23T20:23:40.880" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 20 characters in body" Text="An early mention of the pool of Mnemosyne can be found in the [Petelia Gold Tablet][1], an Orphic inscription from between 300-200 BC: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; You will find in the halls of Hades a spring on the left,  &#xD;&#xA;and standing by it, a glowing white cypress tree;  &#xD;&#xA;Do not approach this spring at all.  &#xD;&#xA;You will find another, from the lake of Memory  &#xD;&#xA;refreshing water flowing forth. But guardians are nearby.  &#xD;&#xA;Say: “I am the child of Earth and starry Heaven;  &#xD;&#xA;But my race is heavenly; and this you know yourselves.  &#xD;&#xA;I am parched with thirst and I perish; but give me quickly  &#xD;&#xA;refreshing water flowing forth from the lake of Memory.”  &#xD;&#xA;And then they will give you to drink from the divine spring,  &#xD;&#xA;And then you will celebrate? [rites? with the other] heroes.  &#xD;&#xA;This [is the ? … of Memory, when you are about] to die ..  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Wikipedia contributors. (2018, March 20). Petelia Gold Tablet. In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 19:57, May 23, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Petelia_Gold_Tablet&amp;oldid=831347660&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petelia_Gold_Tablet" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18953" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5662" RevisionGUID="87c784d8-481b-4284-9e94-b6fb67d282d8" CreationDate="2019-05-23T20:33:02.910" UserId="6066" Text="...instead of just turning himself into a bird? I mean, he turned himself into a fly before." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18954" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5662" RevisionGUID="87c784d8-481b-4284-9e94-b6fb67d282d8" CreationDate="2019-05-23T20:33:02.910" UserId="6066" Text="Why does Loki borrow Freya's feathered coat to fly" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18955" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5662" RevisionGUID="87c784d8-481b-4284-9e94-b6fb67d282d8" CreationDate="2019-05-23T20:33:02.910" UserId="6066" Text="|norse|loki|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18956" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5660" RevisionGUID="d8678ff6-0c6d-4c64-9e21-dc0695642499" CreationDate="2019-05-24T02:25:27.950" UserId="2892" Comment="added 662 characters in body" Text="I see two main reasons:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. It is super-badass and Cuchulainn is an absolutely peerless warrior.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The whole cycle is filled with exaggerated feats by Cuchulainn and others.  As an example, Fergus Mac Roth ([Fergus mac Róich][1]) can chop the tops off of entire hills with a single stroke of his sword. So this outrageously extreme act is in keeping with the Irish tradition of wonderfully exaggerated feats that delight listeners.&lt;1&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. So that the Hero can die on his feet.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Norse tradition, warriors must die in battle to gain entrance to [Fólkvangr][2] or [Valhalla][3].  Although Cu is mortally wounded in battle, everyone is still too afraid of him to approach, even in his diminished state.  This means, as Cu weakens, he will likely die in repose, not standing.  Lashing himself to the pillar ensures he &quot;dies on his feet&quot;, unbowed unto death.&lt;2&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&lt;1&gt; This ability to undergo trials that no other hero could withstand separates heroes like Cu from the pack.  There is a parallel with [Lord Guan][4] in the Romance of the Three Kingdoms.  Guan has been wounded on the arm, and the would is infected. A doctor comes to scrape the infection from his bone.  Guan plays chess as the bone scraping occurs, never evincing any pain or even acknowledging that the procedure is taking place. Guan is ultimately deified as the god of war, and it is events like this that clearly separate him from the common hero. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;2&gt; There is a famous modern reference for this idea via Emiliano Zapata, some form of: [&quot;It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!&quot;][5]* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fergus_mac_R%C3%B3ich&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%B3lkvangr&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valhalla&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guan_Yu&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Emiliano_Zapata" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18957" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5663" RevisionGUID="131efed2-2e94-4dfb-b4e2-3561055adf7d" CreationDate="2019-05-24T08:16:50.380" UserId="3230" Text="At the end of the *Coptic Apocalypse of Paul*, Paul enters the Ogdoad, where he sees the twelve apostles&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And then the &lt;seventh&gt; heaven opened and we went up to the Ogdoad. And I saw the twelve apostles. They greeted me, and we went up to the ninth heaven. I greeted all those who were in the ninth heaven, and we went up to the tenth heaven. And I greeted my fellow spirits.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the Ogdoad? Is it related to the Egyptian Ogdoad? Is it something more than a name for the eight heaven?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt; &lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; The Apocalypse of Paul. Translated by George W. MacRae and William R. Murdock&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18958" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5663" RevisionGUID="131efed2-2e94-4dfb-b4e2-3561055adf7d" CreationDate="2019-05-24T08:16:50.380" UserId="3230" Text="What is the Ogdoad in the Coptic Apocalypse of Paul?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18959" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5663" RevisionGUID="131efed2-2e94-4dfb-b4e2-3561055adf7d" CreationDate="2019-05-24T08:16:50.380" UserId="3230" Text="|christianity|apocalypse-of-paul|new-testament-apocrypha|gnosticism|coptic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18961" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3148" RevisionGUID="767bd0c9-66b9-4990-893a-37bf21ee8e9a" CreationDate="2019-05-24T08:53:26.473" UserId="3230" Comment="deleted 6 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="There are the big three: Hades, Poseidon, Zeus. Furthermore, the Fates, the Furies, the judges of the Underworld, the elder Cyclopes, the Hecatoncheires and the Oneiroi.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are also three rules of the universe: the [Primordials][1], the [Titans][2], and the [Olympians][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am writing a book and **three** seems to be a theme in Greek mythology. Any other groups of three would be helpful. I wish there to be someplace one can view all triads of Greek mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_primordial_deities&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Olympians" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18962" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3148" RevisionGUID="767bd0c9-66b9-4990-893a-37bf21ee8e9a" CreationDate="2019-05-24T08:53:26.473" UserId="3230" Comment="deleted 6 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="What are the all the triads of Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18963" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3148" RevisionGUID="767bd0c9-66b9-4990-893a-37bf21ee8e9a" CreationDate="2019-05-24T08:53:26.473" UserId="3230" Comment="deleted 6 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18964" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3445" RevisionGUID="472a1d33-e5ea-457e-90eb-b70f643b9174" CreationDate="2019-05-24T09:01:39.870" UserId="3230" Comment="fixed spelling, and removed pointless link to google search " Text="[![celtiknot?][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This has been antagonizing me for months. When I asked my mom what this was, she said, apart from a bookmark, it was a Celtic knot. But when I look it up, I get anything but this. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is this? What does it mean? Is it from the Celtic culture?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/uQwHY.jpg&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18965" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1915" RevisionGUID="d599ad0e-4247-4e62-b4f6-167c4f1a492f" CreationDate="2019-05-24T09:04:36.437" UserId="2774" Comment="added more egyptian gods" Text="Looking at old forms of religion, aka totemism, is a good way for you to find animal gods. You can put some decent bets on the fact cavern paintings was religious in nature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And there are dozens of such gods:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- India: Hanuman is your first bet.&#xD;&#xA;- Egypt: Apis the sacred bull. Even Herodotus mentioned him and relate Cambyses II death for him killing Apis. Aker, the lion god protecting ra's bark during his night travel. Babi the baboon death god. Notice also that a lot of early gods representation are showing gods in pure animal form. Hathor and Horus are pregnant examples!&#xD;&#xA;- China: The Qilin, the Sacred Dragon, the Sacred Tiger, the Phoenix Phoenix bird. The Hu Jiang Jun, another sacred tiger of the Taoist. China is more than probably your first source for that!&#xD;&#xA;- Aztec: the Huehuecoyotl. Another big source for you. You heard about the Quetzalcoatl! Another beastie god. Even if malevolent!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18968" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="4851" RevisionGUID="f1475f2e-63c8-4583-9f7c-6014620e1e14" CreationDate="2019-05-24T09:14:51.807" UserId="3230" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|fates|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18969" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5664" RevisionGUID="9ca62736-807d-43d8-aadc-b37881cf4b23" CreationDate="2019-05-24T09:46:42.400" UserId="2774" Text="No, it is not. Coptics are Christians and Greeks, they are not found of Egyptian mythology. Back in the days only seven &quot;celestial objects&quot; were known(Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, the sun and the Moon), that added to the eight sphere, the one of the stars themselves. Egyptians are not renown for their Astrological beliefs, contrary to Greeks. Pointing to the facts that the terms Ogdoads and enneads are here to be used as Greeks not Egyptians at all (beside the fact Agyptologists are just using Greek terms there).&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Now, the very term Ogdoad varies in signification during the time of its uses. Precisely in this text, you have to see it as the realm antechamber before the celestial one. Such a spheric conception is found in Dante. There are in this text two Heavens over the Ogdoad. What are those 2 heavens exactly is pretty much left unanswered. Traditionnaly there is one (the Ennead so, an example is found in the text the Dialogue between the Ogdoad and Ennead).&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Sometimes the sense of ogdoad will vary and be more in what you expect (8 deities) but it is probably never really related to the old Egyptians beliefs. Except very very thinly.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18970" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3336" RevisionGUID="90c99f1f-a9f8-4f77-96b2-0bd3190a4f36" CreationDate="2019-05-24T10:02:05.267" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="18971" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5665" RevisionGUID="a09d8748-0c30-4493-9f56-afba614be870" CreationDate="2019-05-24T10:12:30.830" UserDisplayName="user4660" Text="A myth is a true, or seeming, knowledge of the world, accepted by the bearer of mythological consciousness as valid and unquestionable, unlike folklore, which is not obliged to be perceived as something true and life-like. Folklore is an artistic and aesthetic representation of the world and, being a kind of product of mythology, it retains some of its features, but does not become equal to it." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18972" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3335" RevisionGUID="3c8c4928-cb89-4c95-af24-bd8e0268ddc2" CreationDate="2019-05-24T10:15:55.637" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|folkloristics|terminology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18973" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5649" RevisionGUID="e1fbd181-dca4-48fd-a6dc-8772a7cd0db6" CreationDate="2019-05-24T10:16:38.983" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags; edited tags" Text="|folklore|folkloristics|archetypes|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18974" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5664" RevisionGUID="d939c520-7952-4a34-898f-e947005c197a" CreationDate="2019-05-24T10:23:01.407" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 19 characters in body" Text="No, it is not. Coptics are Christians and Greeks, they are not fond of Egyptian mythology. Back in the days only seven &quot;celestial objects&quot; were known (Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, the sun and the Moon), that added to the eighth sphere, the stars themselves. Egyptians are not renown for their astrological beliefs, contrary to the Greeks. Pointing to the facts that the terms Ogdoads and Enneads are here to be used as Greeks not Egyptians at all (besides the fact Egyptologists are just using Greek terms there).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, the very term Ogdoad varies in significance during the time of its uses. Precisely in this text, you have to see it as the realm antechamber before the celestial one. Such a spheric conception is found in Dante. There are in this text two Heavens over the Ogdoad. What are those 2 heavens exactly is pretty much left unanswered. Traditionally there is one (the Ennead so, an example is found in the text the Dialogue between the Ogdoad and Ennead).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sometimes the sense of Ogdoad will vary and be more in what you expect (8 deities) but it is probably never really related to the old Egyptians beliefs. Except very very thinly.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18975" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5266" RevisionGUID="89e7b1f3-09fd-48ed-9078-e4510c8a12eb" CreationDate="2019-05-24T11:40:12.473" UserId="57" Comment="added 15 characters in body; edited title" Text="I have been reading the [Inuit and Chukchee mythology on Sacred Texts][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many words here that appear to be transliteration rather than translations. Is there an Inuit/Chukchee language dictionary? Or even research available for me to consult to get a better idea of what they mean according to the English language during the late 19/20 century ideas? (Or even today?)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have copied and pasted these words into a search and all I get is the text I am currently reading or nothing, but not a translation of what it may mean in English.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/nam/inu/index.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18976" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5266" RevisionGUID="89e7b1f3-09fd-48ed-9078-e4510c8a12eb" CreationDate="2019-05-24T11:40:12.473" UserId="57" Comment="added 15 characters in body; edited title" Text="How can I find the meanings of certain words of the Inuit language?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18977" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5656" RevisionGUID="09c7a223-915d-48bc-869a-850b958bc28e" CreationDate="2019-05-24T12:08:42.390" UserId="57" Comment="added 12 characters in body; edited title" Text="At the beginning of *Hrafnsmál* the Valkyrie calls the raven &quot;the skull picker of Hymir&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1\. Hearken, noblemen, while I celebrate Harold the magnificent and his feats of arms. I will tell of the words which I heard spoken by a maiden fair and golden haired as she held converse with a raven. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2\. The valkyrie prided herself on her wisdom ; — and the warlike maid took no pleasure in men, for she knew the language of birds. With white throat and sparkling eyes she greeted the skull picker of Hymir as he sat on a jutting ledge of rock, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 3\. 'How is it with you, ye ravens? Whence are ye come with bloody beak at the dawning of day? Torn flesh is hanging from your talons, and a reek of carrion comes from your mouths. I doubt not that ye have passed the night amid a scene of carnage.' &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Anglo-Saxon and Norse Poems. Edited and translated by N. Kershaw.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is this a reference to the giant Hymir (and his unusually hard skull)? &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18978" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5656" RevisionGUID="09c7a223-915d-48bc-869a-850b958bc28e" CreationDate="2019-05-24T12:08:42.390" UserId="57" Comment="added 12 characters in body; edited title" Text="Why does the Valkyrie call the raven &quot;the skull picker of Hymir&quot; in Hrafnsmál?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18979" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5666" RevisionGUID="a6a0ab08-c088-4e50-b490-ace4e2ff15eb" CreationDate="2019-05-24T12:27:15.013" UserId="57" Text="In N. Kershaw's translation of *Hrafnsmál* we learn that champions play chess in Harold's court: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 8\. Very magnificent is the life enjoyed by the glorious champions who play chess in Harold's court. They are enriched with money and with splendid swords, with the metal of Himaland and with girls from the East. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 9\. Their spirits are high when they know that there is a prospect of battle. Eager are they to leap up and bend their oars, to break the oar loops and split the tholes, to churn up the waters with mighty strokes, as I can aver, at the command of their prince.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Anglo-Saxon and Norse Poems. Edited and translated by N. Kershaw.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I wonder what the game is called in the original, and if it's indeed a game we would identify with chess. Or if it's one of the [tafl games][1], Hnefatafl perhaps, translated to chess for convenience.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tafl_games" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18980" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5666" RevisionGUID="a6a0ab08-c088-4e50-b490-ace4e2ff15eb" CreationDate="2019-05-24T12:27:15.013" UserId="57" Text="What is the game champions play in Harold's court?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18981" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5666" RevisionGUID="a6a0ab08-c088-4e50-b490-ace4e2ff15eb" CreationDate="2019-05-24T12:27:15.013" UserId="57" Text="|norse|games|hrafnsmal|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18982" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5666" RevisionGUID="fb5d221d-bec5-448c-8d78-8dd3c554d343" CreationDate="2019-05-24T12:59:30.817" UserId="57" Comment="edited title" Text="What is the game the champions play in Harold's court?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18983" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="3148" RevisionGUID="2eb7b2e3-fea5-449e-9944-a3651c5fbcf2" CreationDate="2019-05-24T13:56:31.187" UserId="4525" Comment="Title typo fixed" Text="What are all the triads of Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18984" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3148" RevisionGUID="2eb7b2e3-fea5-449e-9944-a3651c5fbcf2" CreationDate="2019-05-24T13:56:31.187" Comment="Proposed by 4525 approved by 2774, -1 edit id of 1737" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18985" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3148" RevisionGUID="40d3e8d2-7110-4644-b739-8dc4595d223c" CreationDate="2019-05-24T13:56:31.187" UserId="2807" Comment="Title typo fixed" Text="There are the big three: Hades, Poseidon, Zeus. Furthermore, the Fates, the Furies, the judges of the Underworld, the elder Cyclopes, the Hecatoncheires and the Oneiroi.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are also three rules of the universe: the [Primordials][1], the [Titans][2], and the [Olympians][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am writing a book and **three** seems to be a theme in Greek mythology. Any other groups of three would be helpful.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_primordial_deities&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Olympians" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18986" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5667" RevisionGUID="429c8aa2-2c40-4f1a-bda1-371ed49a8ee6" CreationDate="2019-05-24T16:35:48.273" UserDisplayName="user4660" Text="1. **Mythology** - a special form of human consciousness, a way to preserve traditions in the ever-changing reality, includes folk tales.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. Religion becomes mythology when it looses it's status of institution of state government and replaces with another religion." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18987" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5667" RevisionGUID="dbf3f5b9-f573-4663-8a42-3d3446185f0e" CreationDate="2019-05-24T16:40:57.400" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="added 85 characters in body" Text="&gt; What is the definition of mythology?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Mythology** - a special form of human consciousness, a way to preserve traditions in the ever-changing reality, includes folk tales.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When does a religion become mythology?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Religion becomes mythology when it looses it's status of institution of state government and replaces with another religion." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18988" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5667" RevisionGUID="41b41c9c-418f-4dc5-b6b8-bc975ba3068f" CreationDate="2019-05-24T21:14:58.743" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="grammar" Text="&gt; What is the definition of mythology?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Mythology** - a special form of human consciousness, a way to preserve traditions in the ever-changing reality, includes folk tales.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When does a religion become mythology?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Religion becomes mythology when it looses its status of institution of state government and being replaced with another religion." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18989" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5668" RevisionGUID="37cd4871-1123-4e96-a26b-19422765a6f2" CreationDate="2019-05-24T23:49:10.993" UserId="1241" Text="**Who are the two witnesses in Revelation?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This response to the above question will be from a Catholic point of view.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the majority of Catholic writers, the [Two Witnesses of Chapter 11 of the Apocalypse][1] will be the **Prophets Enoch and Elijah**. They are also believed to be the &quot;Two Witnesses&quot; by many others Christian denominations likewise. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To start with let us look at what [Wikipedia][2] has to say on this subject:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the Book of Revelation, the two witnesses are two of God's prophets who are seen in a vision by John of Patmos, who appear during the Second woe recorded in Revelation 11:1-14. They have been variously identified by theologians as two individuals, as two groups of people, or as two concepts. Dispensationalist Christians believe that the events described in the Book of Revelation will occur before and during the Second Coming of Christ. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Biblical narrative**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; John is told that the court of God's temple would be trampled on by the nations for 42 months. During that period for 1,260 days (or 42 months, or 3½ years), two witnesses would be granted authority to prophesy. They are described as two olive trees and two lampstands who stand before the Lord of the earth. Both are able to devour their enemies with fire that flows out of their mouths. Also, they have power over the sky and waters and are able to strike the earth with plague. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; After their testimony, the Beast overcomes the two witnesses and kills them. For three and a half days, the people of the earth celebrate the two witnesses' death (who have tormented them for three and a half years) and will not permit the witnesses a proper burial. After this time, God resurrects the two witnesses; their resurrection strikes fear on everyone witnessing their revival, and the two witnesses then ascend to heaven. In the next hour, a great earthquake occurs and kills 7000 men, destroying a tenth of the city.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Identity**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Early Christian writers such as Tertullian, Irenaeus, and Hippolytus of Rome, have concluded that the two witnesses would be Enoch and Elijah, prophets who did not die because God &quot;took&quot; them according to other Biblical passages. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Others have proposed Moses as one of the witnesses, for his ability to turn water into blood and the power to plague the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of all the Prophet mentioned in the Old Testament, only the prophets Enoch and Elijah has not died.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;By faith [Enoch][3] was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.&quot; This suggests he did not experience the mortal death ascribed to Adam's other descendants which is consistent with Genesis 5:24(KJV), which says, &quot;And Enoch walked with God: and he [was] not; for God took him.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And as for [Elijah][4]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to 2 Kings 2:3–9, Elisha (Eliseus) and &quot;the sons of the prophets&quot; knew beforehand that Elijah would one day be assumed into heaven. Elisha asked Elijah to &quot;let a double portion&quot; of Elijah's &quot;spirit&quot; be upon him. Elijah agreed, with the condition that Elisha would see him be &quot;taken&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Elijah, in company with Elisha, approaches the Jordan. He rolls up his mantle and strikes the water.[36] The water immediately divides and Elijah and Elisha cross on dry land. Suddenly, a chariot of fire and horses of fire appear and Elijah is lifted up in a whirlwind. As Elijah is lifted up, his mantle falls to the ground and Elisha picks it up. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although most Catholic and other Christian  writers favor the opinion that the two witnesses will be Enoch and Elijah, some claim that they may be [Moses][5], [John the Baptist][6] or one of the other [Jewish prophets][7].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Many have sought to identify the two witnesses. Some say Moses and Elijah and some Preterits state that these two witnesses represent all the prophets and John the Baptist (e.g. Chilton). However, the Church Fathers identified them as “Henoch and Elias” or “Enoch and Elijah” (Augustine). The reason for this is that Enoch and Elijah are the two Old Testament saints who were assumed into Heaven prior to death. Neither of them died. Their future death will be a martyrdom under the hand of the eschatological Antichrist.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; This fact is confirmed by Saint Thomas Aquinas in his Summa Theologiae:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; “Reply to Objection 2. Elias was taken up into the atmospheric heaven, but not in to the empyrean heaven, which is the abode of the saints: and likewise Enoch was translated into the earthly paradise, where he is believed to live with Elias until the coming of Antichrist. (Summa Theologiae III, q. 49, a. 5)&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Saint Thomas teaches that these two men are not in empyrean heaven (i.e. the supernatural realm) but are in the atmospheric heaven (outer space?). Whatever the situation, they are waiting for their encounter with the Antichrist. At least that’s what Saint Augustine and Saint Thomas Aquinas teach–and it’s difficult to argue with them. - [Enoch and Elijah as the Two Witnesses of the Book of Revelation][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Catholic Church goes one step further in regard  to the Prophet Elijah. **The [Carmelite Order][9] celebrates the Feast of St. Elijah  with red vestment in view of his future martyrdom.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Most of the early fathers of the Church identify Elias as one of the &quot;two witnesses&quot; in Chapter 11 of the Apocalypse, who do battle with the Antichrist. The two witnesses are martyred by the son of perdition, but their resurrection and ascension into Heaven ushers in the final defeat of &quot;the beast.&quot; (see Apocalypse 11) The exact manner in which such cryptic prophecies will be fulfilled remains to be seen. It is interesting, however, that Carmelites have always used red vestments on July 20 in honor of the martyrdom of Elias that is to come. - [July 20, Feast of St. Elias the Prophet, Leader and the Father of the Carmelites][10]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2011:1%E2%80%9311:14&amp;version=nkjv&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_witnesses&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enoch_(ancestor_of_Noah)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elijah&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_the_Baptist&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_in_Judaism&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://taylormarshall.com/2008/12/enoch-and-elijah-as-two-witnesses-of.html&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmelites&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://teaattrianon.blogspot.com/2007/07/july-20-feast-of-st-elias-prophet.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18990" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2276" RevisionGUID="38f2cab8-5fb6-44c0-ab75-95e907b998b0" CreationDate="2019-05-25T03:07:04.690" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="18994" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1934" RevisionGUID="47f0125f-ebfa-41c5-a8cb-e3599239850c" CreationDate="2019-05-25T08:44:49.013" UserId="2928" Comment="added 70 characters in body" Text="[Nandi][1] (Hinduism) is a bull. Nandi is the gate-guardian deity of Kailasa, the abode of Lord Shiva. I think you could argue that Nandi is a god. He is a devotee of Shiva, but he is worshipped as a god in all Saivite temples. He is also seen as very powerful and the Master of 18 gurus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Image attribution: [Wikimedia Commons][3]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nandi_(bull)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/C5BK1.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nandi_(bull)#/media/File:Nandi_Chamundi_Mysore.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18995" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5669" RevisionGUID="16c336ec-0743-4c3c-8a90-d4bf2d86a0fb" CreationDate="2019-05-25T12:22:05.183" UserId="57" Text="**The Demiurge.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Gnostic [Demiurge][1] is a creator deity responsible for crafting the physical universe, an entity distinct from and subordinate to the highest, unknowable God. The Gnostics adopted the concept from Plato, but in contrast to Platonic ideas, their Demiurge is sometimes considered antagonistic to the will of the supreme being. This is rooted in the idea that the material world is fundamentally flawed; an attempt to replicate the divine with physical matter. Willingly or not, the Demiurge's creation entraps the divine in materiality, for the Gnostics the material world is nothing more than a spiritual prison.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18996" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1583" RevisionGUID="20a76300-92ae-448c-b22e-9f917730e2ae" CreationDate="2019-05-25T13:01:45.483" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="18998" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5671" RevisionGUID="8af765e4-d099-4355-a14a-15ccf836273a" CreationDate="2019-05-25T17:02:05.800" UserId="6070" Text="You know , even the biggest lies have a faded sign of truth inside. Just like many other myths , I am pretty sure that these myths are an exaggerated ways of saying the truth. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="18999" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5672" RevisionGUID="bc60baad-dda1-4069-b0d3-341950c25a32" CreationDate="2019-05-25T21:41:07.713" UserId="1317" Text="It's interesting that over 3 years, no-one thought of [Gilgamesh's search for immortality](https://stmuhistorymedia.org/gilgamesh-the-search-for-immortality/). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After his great friend Enkidu's death, Gilgamesh goes off on a quest to find Utnapishtim, survivor of the Great Flood and the only man to have been made immortal by the gods. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gilgamesh is so focused on this quest that he forgoes sleep... Eventually he finds Utnapishtim, who tells him of the futlity of searching for immortality. There's another episode where he searches for a plant that will grant youth, only to have it stolen by a snake after he's finally gone to sleep.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So Gilgamesh returns home to Uruk, having learned to be satisfied with the life he has. (It's good to be the king, after all...)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19000" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5673" RevisionGUID="a4539a73-8dcc-404c-b629-82d342d62055" CreationDate="2019-05-25T23:34:09.667" UserId="2682" Text="**Not Alone**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Odyssey*, in fact, Kirke [Circe] does not live all by her lonesome on the island of Aiaia [Aeaea]. In Book 10, Odysseus says that Kirke's house was tended to by certain wood-nymphs, who &quot;come from groves&quot;, and by a couple of varieties of water-nymphs, who &quot;come from springs&quot; and &quot;from the sacred rivers flowing seawards&quot;. It is unspecified whether these nymphs are local to the island but it seems reasonable from the narration to understand them as Aiaia's indigenous inhabitants. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Madeline Miller's *Circe*, after Helios banishes the title character to the island, the place eventually becomes a sort of juvenile delinquent rehabilitation centre for wayward nymphs, which then explains the origin of the goddess's attendants. The only other sentient lifeforms on the island are wild animals. Other ancient sources describe Kirke's situation, however, similarly to what we read in the *Odyssey*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like other goddesses, Kirke is waited upon by other lesser divinities. (Cf. the great Artemis, who is famed for haunting the mountain wildernesses of Arkadia [Arcadia] and Lakonia [Laconia], in which activity she is sometimes accompanied by sixty Oceanids, from another class of water-nymph.) According to Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautica* 4, all of Kirke's housework was done by Naiads (river-nymphs), or at least such had been the case in the generation before the Trojan War, when the divine witch's niece Medeia [Medea] visited her. In Ovid's *Metamorphoses*, upon Odysseus' arrival on Aiaia, even Nereids (from a group of powerful sea-goddesses) are among the nymphs tasked with sorting through Kirke's herbs and weaving materials.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Admittedly, Miller's novel actually does not contradict any of this, since these attendant nymphs are incidental background extras in the scenes in which they (briefly) appear in the ancient texts, unnamed and *sans* any lines of dialogue, so it is in fact open to interpretation how exactly they might have gotten there. My interpretation is that they are simply minor deities filling their spots in the hierarchy under a greater deity, just as it is, for instance, in the entourages of Aphrodite and Dionysos [Dionysus].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Odyssey* there is another goddess who is very similar to Kirke in terms of her relations with Odysseus, namely the sea-nymph Kalypso [Calypso], whose island of Ogygia is described in even more dramatic terms as a deserted place, very seldom visited by any other living beings, including the gods themselves. Upon his arrival there to deliver a message, the god Hermes is almost complaining while mentioning how he had to &quot;traverse those endless briny waters, with not one town to be seen where human beings make sacrifice to the gods&quot; in order to reach his destination. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But even here Kalypso has handmaids (presumably fellow nymphs) to serve her meals. (In Book 5 they seem to pop out of nowhere with dishes of nectar and ambrosia, never having been mentioned before; nor do they come up again after the meal scene herein.) Remarkably, in *Fabulae* 125, the Roman writer Hyginus says that it was *Kalypso* who lived on Aiaia Island! (With such anomalies, when it comes to Hyginus, however, one can almost always assume that he is confusing one character or aspect of the story with another.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Not Imprisoned**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From what I could find, there is no ancient reference to any idea that Kirke is sequestered to or incarcerated on Aiaia. On the character-writing level, the reason she resides in her seclusion (relatively speaking) seems to be in order to increase the spookiness and mystique of this very powerful immortal witch. Within the story itself, as with Kalypso, although it is not explicitly mentioned, the reason for the seclusion appears to be simply because this is the manner in which she wants to live.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Metamorphoses* 14, Kirke meets and falls in love with Picus, the semidivine king of Ausonia on the Italian mainland, because she goes into the hills of Laurentum in search of herbs. Line 348 is somewhat ambiguous as to where Kirke is coming *from* on this occasion, saying that &quot;she had left the Circaean fields, called so from her own name.&quot; Presumably this refers to a place on Aiaia. Depending on where one locates the otherwise mythical island, this might not be saying much, since, in Roman times, it seems to have been identified with a place which would have been within Picus's territory. According to A.S. Kline's [Poetry in Translation website](https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/MetindexBCD.php#Circe), Aiaia is not really a proper island but rather&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;the promontory of Circeii. (Cape Circeo between Anzio and Gaeta, on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the west coast of Italy, now part of the magnificent *Parco Nazionale&#xD;&#xA;&gt; del Circeo* extending to Capo Portiere in the north, and providing a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reminder of the ancient Pontine Marshes before they were drained, rich&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in wildfowl and varied tree species.) Cicero mentions that Circe was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; worshipped religiously by the colonists at Circei.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the beginning of the same *Metamorphoses* book, Kirke travels on foot across the sea, &quot;dry shod&quot;, seemingly at an incredibly rapid pace, to get from her palace to the Strait of Messina where she proceeds to poison the waters which soon afterwards transform the beautiful sea-nymph Scylla into a humongous monster. If Kline's identification of Aiaia with Cape Circeo is correct then the goddess basically walked roughly half the distance down the entire western coastline of southern Italy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Westwards to Warmer Weather**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautica* appears to support this identification, having Kirke's brother Aietes [Aeëtes] locate her roughly in the same neighbourhood, albeit in Tyrrhenia, which was to be found farther northwards in Italy. In Book 3 Aietes tells the Argonauts that he accompanied his father Helios in his chariot when the Sun-Titan was taking Kirke to Tyrrhenia. No further context of the circumstances at the time is provided.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Valerius Flaccus' *Argonautica* suggests that Kirke, earlier in her life, lived with Aietes in the land of Colchis, over which country her brother ruled as king. In Book 7 Medeia reminisces of the time when her aunt was carried away from there &quot;by winged serpents&quot; or dragons, and apparently the implication is that these reptilian creatures were the steeds of Helios' chariot in the scene mentioned by Apollonius. This would mean that Kirke lived with Aietes at least until his daughter Medeia was old enough to remember her leaving.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the same book, Aphrodite appears to Medeia disguised as Kirke, and Medeia  interrogates her as to why she left, seemingly a long time previous to this encounter. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; What sojourning was more pleasing to you than my father’s land?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This implies that, whatever the case, Kirke departed from Colchis of her own free will, or at least, as far as Medeia is aware, it was not under any duress. Aphrodite, still in disguise, responds with a few jibes about Colchis, calling it eternally cold and its inhabitants &quot;unprofitable&quot;. She then goes on to boast about how she is now the consort of Picus and, by extension, so it seems, queen of Ausonia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If not for what we know of the interaction between Kirke and Picus in the *Metamorphoses*, we might not necessarily think to doubt what Aphrodite reports here about those two characters. Ovid tells the story of how Kirke tried to woo Picus and, being rebuffed by him, transformed into a woodpecker. Nothing further is said there about her thereafter taking over his kingdom or anything of the like, an interest which she does not seem to have held.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Bad Tree, Bad Seed**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia claims that: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Some say she was exiled to the solitary island of Aeaea by her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; subjects and her father Helios for killing her husband, the prince of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Colchis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To me this seems to be almost certainly confounding Medeia's story with that of Kirke. Medeia is famous for having killed her own brother, who would have been the prince of Colchis, while being pursued on her way out of the country by her father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There does happen to be one ancient source, though, which fleshes out Kirke's &quot;supervillain origin story,&quot; although this a late euhemerisation mentioned by Diodorus Siculus in his *Library of History,* in which Aietes and Perses are sons of Helios who are made out to be cruel barbarian kings in Eastern Europe. Perses becomes the father of Hekate [Hecate], who is not a Titan goddess here at all but rather a human princess who grows up to be an even viler individual than her father. After assassinating Perses using poison she succeeds him on his throne and founds the temple of Artemis Tauropolos, &quot;commanding that strangers who landed there should be sacrificed to the goddess&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After this she married her uncle Aietes and bore him children, among whom were Kirke and Medeia, the former of whom, being just as awful as her parents, proved that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree but the latter of whom, rather, *dis*proved this saying, becoming an advocate for practising proper hospitality towards strangers rather than killing them for sacrifice.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From her mother as well as her own studies, Kirke became most proficient in the knowledge and use of drugs (i.e. herbs for sorcery). According to the *Library of History* 4.45.4-5, Kirke was then&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; given in marriage to the king of the Sarmatai [Sarmatians], whom some&#xD;&#xA;&gt; call Skythoi [Scythians], and first she poisoned her husband and after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that, succeeding to the throne, she committed many cruel and violent&#xD;&#xA;&gt; acts against her subjects.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; For this reason she was deposed from her throne and, according to some&#xD;&#xA;&gt; writers of myths, fled to Okeanos [Oceanus], where she seized a desert&#xD;&#xA;&gt; island, and there established herself with the women who had fled with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her, though according to some historians she left Pontos [Pontus] and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; settled in Italy on a promontory which to this day bears after her the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; name Kirkaion [Circaeum].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Neither in this version nor in any other is anything explicitly said about any relative of Kirke (whether father, grandfather or uncle) exiling her anywhere. In fact in the mainstream version of the mythology, in which she is undoubtedly an immortal goddess, her presence on Aiaia seems to be as much a gift to her from her father as it is for Helios to give Colchis to Aietes. (Granted that the latter of these is told to us in generally less ambiguous terms, with Helios showering Aietes with a variety of divine presents conveyed from other gods after he has settled in Colchis.)  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19001" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5674" RevisionGUID="e8ed8355-78fc-473a-9b18-7899f706be93" CreationDate="2019-05-26T00:32:51.627" UserId="6071" Text="A brief search revealed five books by Greek and Roman writers on the subject of metamorphoses myths: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- &quot;Metamorphoses&quot; by Ovid&#xD;&#xA;- &quot;Metamorphoseon Synagoge&quot; by Antoninus Liberalis &#xD;&#xA;- &quot;Metamorphoses (aka The Golden Ass)&quot; by Lucius Apuleius&#xD;&#xA;- &quot;Ornithogonia&quot; by Boeus&#xD;&#xA;- &quot;Heteroioumena&quot; by Nicander of Colophon&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There probably are others. The metamorphoses theme was apparently very popular in ancient times." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19002" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5674" RevisionGUID="e8ed8355-78fc-473a-9b18-7899f706be93" CreationDate="2019-05-26T00:32:51.627" UserId="6071" Text="Why was metamorphoses so popular with ancient writers?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19003" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5674" RevisionGUID="e8ed8355-78fc-473a-9b18-7899f706be93" CreationDate="2019-05-26T00:32:51.627" UserId="6071" Text="|greek|roman|concepts|motifs|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19004" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5675" RevisionGUID="04fdb450-2e0d-41d0-bc3a-07491328c2a3" CreationDate="2019-05-26T01:14:43.863" UserId="6071" Text="The story of Cupid and Psyche, a story within a story in &quot;The Golden Ass&quot; by Lucius Apuleius has several characteristics of a Hero's Journey. Or, a Heroine's Journey, if you will.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Psyche goes to all sorts of adventures, including a quest to the underworld, and faces a multitude of obstacles to win back Cupid's love. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19005" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5676" RevisionGUID="c1dcaab9-02cd-48c7-93d1-03e7685f189b" CreationDate="2019-05-26T01:53:02.687" UserId="4022" Text="The translation given by DukeZhou is going for good, idiomatic English—but that means literal accuracy has to be sacrificed sometimes. Here's what Ovid wrote:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; esse quoque in fatis reminiscitur, adfore tempus,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; quo mare, quo tellus correptaque regia caeli  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; ardeat et mundi moles obsessa laboret.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A very literal translation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Also, he remembered that there was a time, located in the prophecies, when the sea, when the earth, and the royal court of heaven that had been snatched up, may all catch fire, and the huge, besieged bulk of the world will be in danger.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The time here isn't written on a scroll per se, but *in fatīs*: in the &quot;*fatum*&quot;s. *Fatum* does mean &quot;fate&quot;, but its original meaning is &quot;utterance&quot;, especially an utterance made by an oracle (it comes from *farī*, &quot;to say&quot;). So in this case, I'd translate it as &quot;prophecy&quot;: this time is recorded in the huge list of things that the augurs and oracles have written down." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19006" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5677" RevisionGUID="fceb8f0d-d548-4b0a-9b39-c89f0c8fc9b2" CreationDate="2019-05-26T02:09:11.480" UserId="4022" Text="Absolutely!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most famous one is the necromancer Erictho, who originated in Lucan's epic _Pharsalia_ (about the civil war between Caesar and Pompey).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In book five, Appius Claudius goes to the oracle at Delphi hoping to find out how the war will end; Apollo possesses the oracle's body and gives a prediction through her. In book six, on the other hand, Pompey's son Sextus wants something different—he seeks out Erictho, the infamous necromancer, and asks her to give him a better prophecy. Instead of praying and deferring to the gods, she threatens them, and gets results: she pulls a ghost back into the world and forces it into a recently-vacated corpse, making it use the corpse's mouth to describe what it saw in the Underworld (where time isn't linear).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;About half the book is devoted to describing how monstrous Erictho is, in too much detail to copy here—but she definitely fits the &quot;evil necromancer&quot; trope, and is clearly meant as a foil to the Oracle at Delphi earlier in the epic." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19007" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5678" RevisionGUID="35a492a7-71bc-4e89-a89c-fa49b9a7f1b7" CreationDate="2019-05-26T10:45:45.327" UserId="2682" Text="**Why *These* Persons?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Within the story the explanation is that these men, when they were alive in the upper world, conducted their affairs with especial attention to fairness. Minos and Rhadamanthys in particular also established the first laws ever used in Greece. Diodorus Siculus says that Rhadamanthys possessed &quot;great justice&quot;, and that Minos &quot;ruled wholly in accordance with law and paid the greatest heed to justice.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Plato's dialogue entitled *Minos*, the celebrated Athenian philosopher Socrates is deeply engaged in discussion with a friend of his. He alludes to the story about how Minos, every nine years, went up to the Cave of Zeus on Mt Ida on his island of Crete (upon which island both Zeus and Minos were born, as was Rhadamanthys) to consult his father there in order &quot;to learn some things, and to show his knowledge of others that he had learnt from Zeus in the preceding nine years.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Socrates then credits Minos with having somehow legislated moderation in the social consumption of alcohol on Crete, using this as an example of the sort of lawmaking wisdom Minos gained from having been, as he puts it, &quot;a disciple of Zeus&quot;. Rhadamanthys, in his turn, was educated in legal matters by Minos, who then appointed him as his attorney general.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Socrates' friend, while acknowledging Rhadamanthys, points out that Minos is widely reputed for having been &quot;a savage sort of person, harsh and unjust&quot;. In his defense, Socrates says that the one mistake that Minos made was to go to war against Athens, the work of whose tragic poets is so influential that it could easily destroy reputation of a just and good ruler such as Minos certainly was. To reinforce his position, Socrates points out, again, that they in Greece, him and his fellow Athenians included, were still being governed by the wise laws established by Minos (and Rhadamanthys), who had acquired them directly from Zeus, the god of justice himself. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Life of Theseus*, Plutarch, who studied philosophy in Athens, seems to be referencing this dialogue when he confirms the same idea, that it was the poets of the tragedy genre who tarnished Minos' reputation. Curiously, Philostratus puts it in the opposite way in the *Life of Apollonius of Tyana*, which says that Minos was&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a man who exceeded all men in cruelty, and who enslaved with his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; navies the inhabitants of continent and islands alike, and yet they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [*the poets*] honour him by placing in his hand a sceptre of justice and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; give him a throne in Haides [Hades] to be umpire of spirits.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason for Aiakos [Aeacus] becoming one of these Underworld judges, you have pretty much laid out in your Question. Also Apollodorus tells us that he &quot;was the most pious of men.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Assisting the King**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Inside the story, it is mostly incidental that these judges are Zeus's sons. It just so happens that these particular guys were such highly lawful people that they qualified for the task to which they were appointed in the afterlife. Part of the point of the task is for these fellows to help Hades out in his courtroom as he hears the cases of the dead, whereupon decisions are made as to the final destinations of these deceased souls, whether their end is to be good or bad.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Statius' *Thebaid* seems to suggest that these judges are needed in order to counter the harsh temper of Hades, described in Book 8 as &quot;the bloodthirsty king&quot;. The same scene portrays the other deities of the Underworld, particularly the river-gods, as likewise participating in the judgements made in this court.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his 1993 book *The Formation of Hell: Death and Retribution in the Ancient and Early Christian Worlds*, Alan E. Bernstein relates the myth from Plato's *Gorgias* which gives us the origin of certain dead men judging other dead people in the Underworld. The speaker in this dialogue, once again, is Socrates. On p. 56, Bernstein writes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the time of Kronos the just were sent to the Isles of the Blessed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to live in happiness and the unjust to the &quot;prison of vengeance and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; punishment&quot; called Tartarus (*Gorgias* 523a). The judges, however,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were living humans unduly influenced by the physical appearance, rank,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and lineage of the people they examined. When Zeus and his brother&#xD;&#xA;&gt; took over, Pluto [*Hades*] denounced this bias.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zeus therefore reformed the procedure. Humans would no longer have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; advance knowledge of their death. They would be tried dead, stripped of all&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their worldly accoutrements. The judges, sons of Zeus, would also be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dead, and thus beyond any earthly advantage. From then on Rhadamanthus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tried souls from Asia and Aeacus from Europe. They performed this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; function at the Meadow of the Dividing of the Road, where they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; separated those going to the Isles of the Blessed from those condemned&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to Tartarus (524a). Bearing a golden scepter, Minos presided, ready to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; determine doubtful cases.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Family Ties**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On a different level, it makes sense for Zeus's offspring to be assisting Hades in his courtroom, considering the close association, in the cults of Hades, between the Lord of the Underworld and the king of the gods, to the extent that Hades was almost considered to be simply a netherworldly version of Zeus, referred to by several epithets which amount to something like &quot;Zeus of the Underworld,&quot; a fairly common one being Zeus Khthonios [Chthonius], the &quot;Chthonic Zeus.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The nepotism surrounding those holding the highest positions of power in the universe of Greek mythology is further evidenced by the fact that, as an example, Zeus is the most important of the Great Twelve Olympian Gods and every single other member of this group is either his sibling or his child (with the exception of the version in which Aphrodite is not his daughter)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19008" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5669" RevisionGUID="60a84db9-38ee-47bf-938b-b0c7487b7738" CreationDate="2019-05-26T12:39:29.853" UserId="57" Comment="added 273 characters in body" Text="**The Demiurge.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Gnostic [Demiurge][1] is a creator deity responsible for crafting the physical universe, an entity distinct from and subordinate to the highest, unknowable God. The Gnostics adopted the concept and term from Plato, but in contrast to Platonic ideas, their Demiurge is often considered antagonistic to the will of the supreme being. This is rooted in the idea that the Demiurge's creation, the material world is fundamentally flawed; an attempt to replicate the divine with physical matter. Willingly or not, the Demiurge's creation entraps the divine in materiality. For the Gnostics, the material world is nothing more than a spiritual prison.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You may find more information on the Demiurge, including the story of how he came to be, in Chapter 5 of Book I of [Irenaeus' *Against Heresies*][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Detection_and_Overthrow_of_the_So-Called_Gnosis" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19009" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5679" RevisionGUID="13c17627-1c73-4634-b09d-227205f8cc23" CreationDate="2019-05-26T12:57:15.427" UserId="6071" Text="I know folklore studies are called &quot;folkloristics&quot; and people who study folklore are called &quot;folklorists&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there equivalent terms for mythology? Is there a single term for the study of mythology, and what do we call someone who studies mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19010" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5679" RevisionGUID="13c17627-1c73-4634-b09d-227205f8cc23" CreationDate="2019-05-26T12:57:15.427" UserId="6071" Text="Is there a single term for the study of mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19011" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5679" RevisionGUID="13c17627-1c73-4634-b09d-227205f8cc23" CreationDate="2019-05-26T12:57:15.427" UserId="6071" Text="|terminology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19012" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5680" RevisionGUID="e856a8f0-c445-4de9-9c7b-1809d6bf1c45" CreationDate="2019-05-26T13:40:47.990" UserId="6071" Text="An anarchist message can be found in Antigone's refusal to abide by King Creon's decree to leave her brother unburied, as dramatized in the play &quot;Seven Against Thebes&quot; by Aeschylus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interestingly, the first known use of the word &quot;anarchy&quot; in a political context is in line 1035 of the play." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19013" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5674" RevisionGUID="f0f09ab6-ea0e-4370-84b4-6c9f4403809e" CreationDate="2019-05-26T13:49:56.260" UserId="1317" Comment="Fix Grammar" Text="A brief search revealed five books by Greek and Roman writers on the subject of metamorphosis myths: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- &quot;Metamorphoses&quot; by Ovid&#xD;&#xA;- &quot;Metamorphoseon Synagoge&quot; by Antoninus Liberalis &#xD;&#xA;- &quot;Metamorphoses (aka The Golden Ass)&quot; by Lucius Apuleius&#xD;&#xA;- &quot;Ornithogonia&quot; by Boeus&#xD;&#xA;- &quot;Heteroioumena&quot; by Nicander of Colophon&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There probably are others. The metamorphosis theme was apparently very popular in ancient times." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19014" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5674" RevisionGUID="f0f09ab6-ea0e-4370-84b4-6c9f4403809e" CreationDate="2019-05-26T13:49:56.260" UserId="1317" Comment="Fix Grammar" Text="Why were metamorphoses so popular with ancient writers?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19015" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5674" RevisionGUID="f0f09ab6-ea0e-4370-84b4-6c9f4403809e" CreationDate="2019-05-26T13:49:56.260" Comment="Proposed by 1317 approved by 6071 edit id of 1738" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19016" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5681" RevisionGUID="8b0e8153-7555-4023-8e55-e6748812a0b1" CreationDate="2019-05-26T17:54:53.320" UserDisplayName="user4660" Text="*Mythologist* - there is no such word in the *Longman Dictionary of English Language and Culture*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**BUT**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are other dictionaries of other languages and culture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example [The Explanatory Dictionary of the Russian Language][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **[Мифолог][2]** - Ученый, исследователь в области мифологии (Толковый словарь Ушакова)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    // Mythologist - Scientist, researcher in the field of mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ushakov_Dictionary&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://slovonline.ru/slovar_ushakov/b-13/id-30133/mifolog.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19021" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5682" RevisionGUID="bad984fd-ea73-480b-93df-de88eabafeff" CreationDate="2019-05-26T19:42:51.673" UserId="4022" Text="For the sake of future readers, here's some info taken from [my answer][1] to [this Latin.SE question][2]; I'm not at all sure I've found the *first* syncretism, and _interpretatio graeca_ definitely happened earlier too (since Herodotus is quick to connect Greek and Egyptian gods), but this is the oldest written source I've found that concerns specifically Roman deities: it predates Tacitus's _Germania_ by about a century.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Dionysius of Halicarnassus's _Roman Antiquities_ 2.34 (first century BCE):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Μετὰ δὲ τὴι πομπήν τε καὶ θυσίαν νεὼν κατασκευάσας ὁ Ῥωμύλος ἐπὶ τῆς κορυφῆς τοῦ Καπιτωλίου **Διός, ὃν ἐπικαλοῦσι Ῥωμαῖοι Φερέτριον**, οὐ μέγαν (ἔτι γὰρ αὐτοῦ σώζεται τὸ ἀρχαῖον ἴχνος ἐλάττονας ἢ πέντε ποδῶν καὶ δέκα τὰς μείζους πλευρὰς ἔχον)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Then, after that triumph, and the sacrifice, Romulus built a new temple **to Zeus (whom the Romans call &quot;Feretrius&quot;)** at the top of the Capitoline Hill. It wasn't very big—the old foundations still survive, and the longest side is less than fifteen feet long.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Translation and emphasis mine.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This was the Temple of Jupiter Feretrius, the oldest temple in Rome, where the *spolia opima* were brought after a war. According to Nepos, it fell into ruin sometime before Caesar and was rebuilt by Augustus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://latin.stackexchange.com/a/10765/406&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://latin.stackexchange.com/q/6033/406" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19022" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5683" RevisionGUID="e9dc861c-79be-40c1-838a-28b3628983c4" CreationDate="2019-05-26T20:28:19.533" UserId="4022" Text="To answer the second part of your question:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; …does this mean they spoke the same as Queen Dido?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Historically, no; mythologically, also no.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While Vergil probably knew nothing about Luwian, or any other dead languages of Anatolia, the Romans were very familiar with the **Punic language** (a dialect of Phoenician) spoken in Carthage. While most Romans wouldn't have been fluent, it was familiar enough for the common greeting _ave!_ &quot;hail!&quot; (as in _Ave Marīa_, &quot;hail Mary&quot;) to be borrowed into Latin: the original form was Punic _ħawe_, &quot;may you live well!&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For some additional evidence, the comedian Plautus uses Punic for some extremely bad bilingual puns in Act V, Scene 2 of his _Patruus_ (&quot;The Uncle&quot;, better known as _Poenulus_, &quot;The Little Carthaginian&quot;). In the following, anything in bold is Punic, anything not in bold is Latin, and I've left out some lines for brevity:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; M: Should I talk to him in Punic?  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; A: You know Punic?  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; M: No Punic is more Punic than me, nowadays!  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; A: Okay, go ask what he wants, why he's come here, who he is, where he's from, what country…don't hold back!  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; M, turning to address the stranger: Um, yes. **Hello!**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; H: **Hello, sir.** (*Avo, donni.*)  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; M: He, uh…wants to give you something! He wants to give you, um, I don't know what…but you can hear it, right? (Latin *donī*, &quot;gifts&quot;)  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; A: Good. Greet him in Punic for me?  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; M: **Hello, sir**, he says, those are his words.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; H: **Is he a friend of yours?** (*Mechar, bocca?*)  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; M: Uh, better you than me, I guess? He's saying that his mouth hurts. Maybe he thinks we're doctors? (Latin *bucca*, &quot;mouth&quot;).  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; H: **There is no doctor here, you absolute idiot.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This continues for a few pages, with H—who clearly understands Latin perfectly—getting more and more annoyed as M insists he's here to present mice and funnels to the police. So it seems Punic was common enough in Rome for Plautus to make bad puns off it. Similarly, both Plautus and Vergil use accurate Punic names for their Carthaginian characters (Elissa &lt; *eliša(t)*, Anna &lt; *ħanna(t)*, etc).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;TL;DR: the Punic language was fairly well-known in ancient Rome, to the point of making terrible puns with it, and Vergil used accurate Punic names for the people Aeneas meets in Carthage. Aeneas's ability to speak Punic is just for the sake of the story—Venus gives him language skills so he can flirt with Dido, perhaps, or a similar handwave." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19023" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5639" RevisionGUID="ca371c5c-1315-4378-8246-5e1cae9306a8" CreationDate="2019-05-26T20:42:14.487" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; added info" Text="**Son of Aigaios?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as English translations of the *Iliad* go, there is a rather unique interpretation of the word Αἰγαίων᾽ in Richmond Alexander Lattimore's 1951 translation of the *Iliad* (specifically Book 1, Line 404 in this case). A straight transliteration thereof would give us &quot;Aigaion&quot;. English translations tend to then Latinise this into &quot;Aegaeon&quot; (such as it is in your Question). In Lattimore's version:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that creature the gods name Briareos, but all men Aigaios' son, but he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is far greater in strength than his father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is actually a somewhat ingenious and quite legitimate way to interpret the giant's &quot;human&quot; name. Compare how, in the line immediately following, Zeus is referred to by one of his common epithets, *Kronion* [Cronion], which, as we know, indicates &quot;Son of Kronos [*Cronus*]&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On his [Poetry in Translation website](https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad1.php#anchor_Toc328052752), A.S. Kline translates the last clause of Line 404 to read that &quot;Aegaeon&quot; is &quot;mightier than his father Poseidon&quot;. The word &quot;Poseidon&quot; actually does not appear in this line of the Greek text from which it is being translated, nor do I know of any ancient source that explicitly says anything about this giant being a son of Poseidon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his book &quot;The *Iliad*, Edited with Apparatus Criticus, Prolegomena, Notes, and Appendices&quot; (1900), Walter Leaf says, in Footnote 403 on Page 32, that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The father of Briareus was, according to the legend, Poseidon, who was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; himself sometimes called *Αἰγαίων* or *Αἰγαῖος*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reference is vague as to the source of this &quot;legend&quot; but there is indeed the citation by Strabo, in Book 9 of his *Geography*, that Poseidon was called Aigaios at Aigai [Aegae] in Euboia [Euboea], where he had a temple under this name, which presumably denotes him as Poseidon &quot;Of [the City of] Aigai&quot;. Book 13 of the *Iliad* says that Poseidon lived in a palace under the Sea at this Aigai (see also *Odyssey* 5.381). Lycophron does refer to Poseidon as *Aigaio**n*** in his poem *Alexandra* (135).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Hesiod's *Theogony*, Briareus was married to Poseidon's daughter Kymopoleia [Cymopoleia], so at the very least this giant was a son-*in-law* of the King of the Sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a lost epic called the *Titanomachy* which seems to have treated some of the characters from the *Theogony* differently from Hesiod's placement of their allegiances in his account of the War of the Titans. Referring to this lost *Titanomachy*, the scholion on Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautica* 1.1165, says that Aigaion was a son of Pontos (the Sea) and Gaia (the Earth), that he lived in the Sea, and that he fought on the side of the Titans against Zeus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cinaithon, another early poet who knew of this giant's double name,&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; says that Aigaion was defeated by Poseidon.&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; In some instances it seems that Aigaion and Briareos are not necessarily the same character and that perhaps two separate personages were fused into this one, who we eventually know best as a son of the *Sky* (Ouranos [Uranus]) and the Earth, rather than of the Sea and the Earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It may also be worth noting the possibility that Homer is unaware of a group of triplet giants called the Hekatonkheires [Hecatoncheires]. He never mentions any other apart from Briareos-Aigaion. The *Theogony*, which does group this giant with triplet brothers, never uses the word *Hekatonkheires* anywhere and simply calls the most famous one Briareos (or Obriareos). Here, from among these triplets, Poseidon specifically singles Briareos out in order to make him his son-in-law &quot;because he was good&quot; or &quot;goodly.&quot; In some sense or another there was something special about him among the fifty-headed divine giants.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Language Distinction Between the Gods and Mortals**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The same sort of double name ascribed to Aigaion-Briareos is given to the main river of Troy in *Iliad* 20. This river was a god whose fellow deities called him Xanthos [Xanthus] but whom mortals referred to as Skamandros [Scamander]. The same footnote of Leaf's *Iliad* book, mentioned above, takes note of these double names and comments:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The natural supposition would be that the 'divine' words are archaic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; survivals, perhaps from an older race. It is sometimes said that the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; divine name has usually a clearer meaning than the human, and that the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greeks therefore regarded their own tongue as divine, and others as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the languages of mere men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Leaf, though, goes on to say that this is the case only with one other example, as well as, perhaps the Xanthos-Skamandros *Iliad* quote, &quot;which, however, look like different renderings of the same foreign word.&quot; He goes on to mention that the Pelasgian Hermes was called Imbros [Imbrus], apparently understanding this to be an earlier, pre-Greek version of this deity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Roman poet Ovid, in Book 11 of his *Metamorphoses*, has a similar thing to say about one of the numerous minor gods who personify dreams.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The gods have named him Icelus; here below the tribe of mortals call&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him Phobetor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems clear that Ovid does *not* mean to say that Latin is the language of the gods. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As with Xanthos/Skamandros and Aigaion/Briareos, this is rather a case, I think, of the poets in question attempting to add verisimilitude and realism to their storytelling. I interpret the idea here to be that the gods have their own language that they speak and that: &quot;Now I, as the narrator, am going to mention a couple of naming conventions as examples of how that divine language differs from that of us mortals [a form of Ancient Greek in Homer's case; Latin in Ovid's case].&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If this assessment is correct then it means that each deity has his own divine name as well as a &quot;human&quot; one. It would, however, detract from the main point, i.e. moving the story along, to spend time revealing (or rather *inventing*?) an extra fantasy-fiction-style set of names for more than one or two of them. (These works are generally otherwise chock-full of cult titles and special epithets for the gods, and the etymologies of these are almost always something less otherworldly than them being part of a divine language.&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;)    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Page 107, from Ch. 8, &quot;Writing Local History: Archemachus and His *Euboika*&quot;, by Sławomir Sprawski, in *The Children of Herodotus: Greek and Roman Historiography and Related Genres*, ed. Jakub Pigoń (2008).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. Page 69 of *Early Greek Mythography, Vol. 2: Commentary*, by Robert L. Fowler (2013).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. The *Theogony* (Lines 820ff) implies that the gods do have their own language, which the immense, many-headed, fire-breathing monster Typhoeus has the ability to speak, in addition to emitting &quot; every sort of horrible sound&quot; such as &quot;the sound of a bellowing bull... or again like a lion shameless in cruelty, or again it was like the barking of dogs, a wonder to listen to, or again he would whistle so the tall mountains re-echoed to it.&quot;&lt;/sub&gt; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19024" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5640" RevisionGUID="82fe44ae-2cef-4219-99a1-0deb37f9d6e3" CreationDate="2019-05-26T21:21:19.607" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="The quoted passage informs us that Thetis did not directly intervene against Poseidon, Hera and Athena, who, indeed, yes, should have been more powerful than she. A scholion on Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautica* cites Ion of Chios as saying that it was from the sea that Thetis sent Aegaeon &quot;up to protect Zeus&quot;. Your quote says that the hundred-handed monster merely had to sit next to Zeus in order to halt the attempt on the sky-god's freedom, the conspirators now too scared to try anything.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ovid's *Metamorphoses* says that Aegaeon was a sea-god, and your *Iliad* quote implies a close connection between him and Thetis. On his [Poetry in Translation website](https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad1.php#anchor_Toc328052752), A.S. Kline seems to build on Richmond Alexander Lattimore's translation (1951) of this portion of the *Iliad*, in which Lattimore interprets the word Αἰγαίων᾽ as &quot;Son of Aegaeus&quot;. In Kline's version, the monster whom men call Aegaeon is &quot;mightier than his father Poseidon&quot;. Even though the word &quot;Poseidon&quot; actually does not appear in this line of the Greek text from which it is being translated, Aegaeus was incidentally a cult title of Poseidon, from the city where *Iliad* 13 says he lived in a palace under the sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Hesiod's *Theogony*, where this giant is called simply Briareus, or Obriareus, he antedates Poseidon and is this god's uncle, although by the end of the poem he has become Poseidon's son-in-law also. Briareus and his two triplet brothers are here repeatedly described as superlatively powerful: &quot;irresistible was the stubborn strength that was in their great forms&quot;, and that they possess &quot;unconquerable&quot; and &quot;overwhelming&quot; strength. Apollodorus says that &quot;They were unsurpassed in both size and power&quot;. With all this at their disposal it was easy for them to help Zeus win the War of the Titans. And as far as Homer is concerned, it takes merely the *appearance* of just one of these humongous entities to frighten off some of the most powerful deities, such as Poseidon, Hera and Athena are.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for further detail on the story of trying to bind Zeus, Timothy Gantz breaks it down as follows in his book *Early Greek Myth: A Guide to Literary and Artistic Sources* (1993:59):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This story survives only in the *Iliad*, and leaves much to be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; explained (for example, what the conspirators might have hoped to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; accomplish); if it is not a spontaneous creation of Homer, it *could*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; refer to a time earlier in the Trojan War, when the gods in question&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (these are the Achaian supporters) plotted to gain the advantage for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their own side. Ion of Chios seems to have told the story as well, or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; at least mentioned the summoning of Aigaion [*Aegaeon*] to Olympos&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [*Olympus*] by Thetis (741 *PMG*); we cannot say whether he had other&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sources besides Homer. Though the *Iliad* scholia also reflect&#xD;&#xA;&gt; puzzlement, the A group recounts Didymos' story that Hera, Poseidon,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Athena, and Apollo plotted against Zeus because of his high-handedness&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and outspoken nature; when Aigaion saved him he hung up Hera in her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; own chains and bound Poseidon and Apollo to serve Laomedon (ΣA *`Il.`*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1.399). The b and T groups also know this last part, and add that some scholars actually substituted Apollo's name for Athena's in the text,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on the grounds that she would not threaten the father to whom she was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; so close. But most of their commentary is devoted to an allegorical&#xD;&#xA;&gt; explanation of the conspiracy, suggesting that they had few real myths&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to fall back on. In the *Iliad* itself, we should note, Hera's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; suspension in air stems from an entirely different matter, that of her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; driving Herakles [*Heracles*] to Kos [*Cos*] in a storm." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19025" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5629" RevisionGUID="4e30e051-0bae-4802-9d65-50c5f9a6829a" CreationDate="2019-05-26T21:30:47.250" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="Yes, she did know.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are at least two ancient sources which make this explicit, the first being Nonnus' *Dionysiaca*, which places the reign of Perseus in Argolis during the time that Perseus' half-brother the wine-god Dionysus is concluding his epic tour of Greece. At the end of Dionysus' itinerary is the region of Argolis, one of whose major cities is Argos, partly ruled over by Perseus' relative Melampus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Argos is famously known as a city dedicated to Hera. Centuries before Perseus and Dionysus were born Poseidon and Hera had contended strongly for the honour of becoming the city's patron deity, and Perseus' ancestors had awarded Hera the position. In *Dionysiaca* 47, by the time that Dionysus comes with his campaign entourage to Argos, the notoriety of Hera's hatred of him is so widespread that the Argives are fearful of a reprisal from their goddess if they receive this enemy stepson of hers. The citizens therefore turn Dionysus' army away from their home, which then provokes a retaliation by Dionysus, who induces madness in the city's women so that they start to butcher their own children.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This in turn attracts Hera's attention, who swoops to the aid of her city by disguising herself as Melampus and, in this form, goading Perseus into defending Argos against Dionysus' attack. In the fight that ensues, Dionysus' new bride Ariadne gets turned to stone by Perseus, who achieves this by using the deadly head of the slain Gorgon Medusa. An enraged Dionysus is then ready to destroy the city as well as other parts of Argolis, threatening to annihilate the land's inhabitants, at which point another half-brother, the messenger-god Hermes, appears behind him and convinces him to cease fighting, explaining that Hera, who is involved in the battle, possesses the power to defeat him.      &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; With Hermes' help, Dionysus and Perseus afterwards become friends&#xD;&#xA;&gt; while the real Melampus establishes the cult of Dionysus in Argolis.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The wine-god then moves on from there to Thrace to conclude his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; adventures in the final book of the *Dionysiaca*.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;~ *from [my Answer to another Question*](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/4730/2682)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the speech used by the disguised Hera to stir Perseus up in defense against Dionysus, she references the conception of Perseus by his mother Danae, urging Perseus to: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; remember the bronze vault which was Danae's chamber, where Rainy Zeus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; poured into her bosom a shower of bride-stealing gold—let not Danae,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after that bed, after the wedding of gold, bend a slavish knee to that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; nobody Dionysus. Show that you have in you the true blood of Cronion&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [*Zeus*], show that you have in you the golden breed, proclaim the bed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that received that snowstorm of heavenly riches... Why do you tremble&#xD;&#xA;&gt; before Dionysus, no offspring of the bed of Zeus?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The play *Hercules Furens*, by the Roman writer Seneca, opens with Juno (the Roman Hera) listing a number of her husband's indiscretions with other women and how different aspects of these illicit unions are celebrated across the sky itself in the form of constellations. In the case of the Gorgon-slaying hero, after his death, Zeus made him into the constellation Perseus. Juno refers to the women in her catalogue here as harlots, bearing a clearly much less flattering perspective than the one presented by Nonnus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first of our sources above is describing the last known adventure of Perseus before he settles down to family life. The second source describes a scene occurring a few generations after Perseus is dead. It is perhaps not impossible that Hera only learned of Perseus' paternity later in his lifetime. In Perseus's *Dionysiaca* cameo, Hera seems quite happy to have her Gorgon-slaying stepchild as a lord of her favoured urban location.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If Hera does in fact know from earlier on that Perseus is her stepson, my other guess is that she does not bother harassing him or his mother because they are not special favourites of Zeus in the same way the ones you mention in your Question are. Leto's twins, and Dionysus, and Heracles are perhaps the topmost favourite children of Zeus of all time (with the exception of the ancient horned god Zagreus). Perseus and his mother, on the other hand, receive no particular attention from Zeus that I am aware of.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Perseus was born his grandfather Acrisius put him and his mother in a wooden chest which he cast into the sea in the hope of killing the newborn boy. This episode is the single direct interaction that I have found between Zeus and Perseus after the latter's conception and before the hero's being made into a constellation after his death. Hyginus tells us that Zeus caused the seaborne chest to be carried to the island of Seriphos, where Perseus grew up in obscurity, living together with his mother and the poor fisherman who found them when their box arrived upon his shore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whether Zeus simply cared so little for them or he was trying to hide them from Hera or Acrisius, we are not told. In at least one instance of Zeus siring his dozens of children he was such a deadbeat dad that one is left to wonder whether he was even aware this offspring existed. Some of his children are obscure enough for this to plausibly have been the case with them in general. There's also a handful of his children with whom Zeus shares a hostile relationship (one of these is killed by Zeus himself). Perhaps towards Perseus he was fairly indifferent for a good chunk of the hero's life. The *Iliad*, though, does have Zeus boasting to Hera, during the Trojan War (generations after Perseus' death), that his son Perseus was the &quot;greatest of warriors&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whatever Hera's reason for not persecuting Perseus and Danae is, she was certainly aware, at least by some point prior to Dionysus' Argos début, that Perseus was her stepson. Among Zeus' love affairs and illegitimate offspring, however, Perseus and Danae are not unique in remaining unmolested by the queen of the gods, neither is Perseus the only stepchild of hers with whom Hera found occasion to team up against a mutual opponent." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19026" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2681" RevisionGUID="10253f92-53f6-4b1c-b13c-8d1cce8c6c54" CreationDate="2019-05-26T21:43:41.427" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|titans|prometheus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19027" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2515" RevisionGUID="9f5fe3cd-9d51-4033-8ae4-836b0ad3984d" CreationDate="2019-05-26T21:43:48.893" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|hercules|titans|prometheus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19028" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2798" RevisionGUID="c6611be3-8f84-4117-b785-4f04a56efd98" CreationDate="2019-05-26T22:02:57.290" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected spelling &amp; fixed grammar" Text="BRIEF&#xD;&#xA;=====&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no Greek god called by this name. The character in question, according to the Greco-Roman mythographers, is someone—most likely a regular garden-variety *man*—who is supposed to have been an early leader {or an ancestor or even the very first} of the *`Ioudaioi`* [`Iudæi`, “Judaeans/Jews”].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Plutarch alludes to a legend which says that this someone was a son of Typhon, and the brother of Hierosolymos. In Greek mythology Typhon was a massive and terrifying many-headed monster who fought against the Olympians. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While interpreting the religion of Egypt for their own purposes, the Greeks associated Typhon with the malevolent Egyptian god Seth. Hierosolymos (Latinised as *Hierosolymus*) is supposed to have been the founder of Jerusalem. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All this is basically part of the Ancient Greek version of something like a tabloid article made up to defame a certain ethno-religious group.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;THE BREAKDOWN&#xD;&#xA;=============&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The closest that the specific character in question comes to being a deity, in the Greco-Roman texts in which he is mentioned, is as *the son of* a god. But first there are at least three levels of confusion needing to be sifted through in order to even arrive at that conclusion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1.	This information comes from the *parody* of a Levantine people’s culture using the Greco-Roman reinterpretation of an Ancient Egyptian myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2.	In the course of the process of #1, much confusion—some of it seemingly deliberate—of particularly the characters’ names, their origins and meanings, has transpired both in ancient times and, perhaps, in the online “Cascade Assembly” article to which you have linked your Question. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3.	Words and names have a knack for changing across languages, cultures and timespans so that there end up being numerous ways of saying exactly the same thing. At some point the idea develops that these different words/names inherently mean completely different, unrelated things, even though they originally did not.     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Fluidity of Languages**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here’s an example of what I mean by #3. Over the course of the so-called Middle Ages, the Roman Empire fell, sort of in two pieces. First, the Western piece, in Europe, was overtaken by Germanic tribes. Later on the Eastern piece, in Asia, was at war with the Seljuqs, a Turkish dynasty which ruled Persia. *Rûm*, “Roman,” is what these Turkish Persians called their enemies. Once they had taken over a large part of the Eastern Roman Empire, the Seljuqs considered themselves Romans as well, and their domain is even referred to as the Sultanate of Rûm, and, from Persian *Saljūqiyāni Rūm*, “Seljukian Rome.”&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the 1200s AD, in the same era, there was a Persian Sufi poet best known today in English as Rūmī, “Roman” or “from Rûm.”&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;  What the Cascade Assembly article is suggesting about the word Ἰουδαῖος is sort of like saying that because there was a Sufi theologian and writer named Rūmī, the name therefore is a strictly Islamic term meaning “Sunni mystic poet and theologian.” &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the same way, however, that *Rûm* and *Rūmī* are not inherently Muslim designations (the Christian communities from this part of the world also use these terms for themselves), and simply mean “Rome/Roman,” there is nothing inherently “pagan” about Ἰουδαῖος, which is merely the Greek word for “Jew” or “Judaean.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The term “Roman,” whether in English, Arabic, Turkish or Persian, has been applied to a variety of different groups of people: the Ancient Latins of the city of Rome in Italy; 12th-century AD Iranian Muslims; Greek-speaking Christians in modern Anatolia, etc. In like manner, the term “Ἰουδαῖος/Iudæus/Jew” has been used to mean, variously, a citizen of the ancient Israelite kingdom of Yehudah [Judah]; one of the Zimbabwean Amalemba; an Arabic-speaking member of the “Paradesi” community in India; any adherent of the Torah of Mosheh [Moses] with or without any Hebrew ancestry; and so on and so forth. The inherent meanings of *Rūmī* and Ἰουδαῖος, nevertheless, are basic and unchanged, in spite of who they are applied to, and at whatever degrees of validity. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Frequently, the form of a name may mutate quite dramatically between languages. English is very confusing in this way because many names in this tongue have first been filtered through several other speech-forms from their original before arriving here. E.g., *James* is an English version of *Yaʿăqoḇ* [Jacob], the name of the father of the people of Yisra’el [Israel]. *James* comes from a French rendition of the Late Latin corruption (*Jacomus*) of the Old Latin translation (*`Iacobus`*) of the Greek translation (*`Iákōbos`*) of *Yaʿăqoḇ*.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Jew* has a similar trajectory, coming from the Middle English version (*`Iewe`*) of the Old French corruption (*Juieu*) of the Latin translation (*`Iudæus`*) of the Greek rendition (*`Ioudaios`*) of the Aramaic version (*Y'hūdāi*) of Hebrew *Yəhūḏāh*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The middle syllables of certain words get eroded&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; in Old French, thus we lose the *-co-* in *Ja&lt;strike&gt;co&lt;/strike&gt;mus*, to get *James*&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt;, and the *-da-* in *Ju&lt;strike&gt;da&lt;/strike&gt;eus*, to get *Juieu*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The pronunciation of the letter J, which was initially just a fancy way of writing the letter `I`, also gets emphasised until it becomes a much more solid sound than in its original accentuation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Strangely, the author of that Cascade Assembly essay seems to be aware of these basic features of language but then insists that Greek *Ioudaios* and English *Jew* are somehow mistranslations or “the *wrong* words for” *Yəhūḏāh*. To a certain degree, I happen to agree with that assessment. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To translate anything from one language or script to another is essentially to distort its original intent. There is no way to convey the exact shades of meaning in perfect configuration from Hebrew into Greek or from Aramaic into English. By translating anything, you have hopelessly altered it into a different sense, turning it into idioms and expressions that the speaker/writer of the original words/statements/texts never had in mind. Translation is (inadvertently) corruption. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Having said that, however, if that rule were to be applied with 100% rigid strictness then language would be static and translation would never occur in any place or in any way. The problem with the linked article is that it is inconsistent, accepting some translation from some languages as “true” and others, quite arbitrarily, as “untrue.” It even makes up its own “correct” English version of the word in question. Half of the things asserted in the article are correct but mixed in with a lot of misapprehended information, which basically is misleading. This is not a new phenomenon, though, and this kind of confusion, mistranslation and misinformation is something like what happened in ancient times in the mythology that you’re asking about. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. The 30th Surah (Chapter) of *al-Qur’an* is entitled *Ar-Rūm*, Arabic for “The Romans,” and refers to the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars today like to call it the “Byzantine” Empire, from *Byzantion*, the previous name of the city of Constantinople (now Istanbul, Turkey). When Constantinople was founded, it was nicknamed “New Rome” and was made into the capital of the Roman Empire, over against the original Rome in Italy itself.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. This is just a title, however, his personal name being Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad, in much the same way that the Italian Renaissance artist Leonardo di ser Piero is better known as da Vinci, “of [the town of] Vinci.”&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. The technical term is “elided”.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;4. *Jacques*, the Modern French version of this name comes from *Jacobus* (*Iacobus*), and in this instance it is the *-ob-* syllable which has been elided.&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Egyptian Story**    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This Question takes us to the most famous Egyptian myth, in which Geb (the Earth) and Nūt (the Sky) become the parents of two sons, Asaru (or Ūsïrē, whom the Greeks called *Osiris*) and Seth, and two daughters, Aset and Nebet-het (called *Isis* and *Nephthys*, respectively, in Greek). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Asaru married Aset while Seth married Nebet-het. Asaru and Aset became king and queen of Egypt. Everyone loved Asaru except for his own brother Seth, who was jealous of him and killed him, chopping his corpse to pieces and scattering the pieces all over the land. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aset, with help from Nebet-het, managed to reassemble Asaru’s body, resurrect him and conceive a son by him, who was named Ḥor (or Ḥeru, who is called *Horus* in Greek). Asaru descended into the Underworld to become the god, ruler and judge of the dead over there while Ḥor went to war against his uncle Seth over which of them would now rule Egypt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eventually Ḥor defeated Seth and became the last of the gods to be king of the country. Seth thus came to represent the barren red desert region to the west of the Nile, which, later in the mythology, was also the direction of death and departure from the realm of the living.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Divine War in Greece**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Greek mythology Zeus defeated his own father the Titan Kronos in battle and became the king of the gods. Kronos’ mother Gaia, the Earth, then gave birth to a cosmic-sized monster named Typhon so that he could avenge Kronos. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Typhon had a hundred fire-breathing dragons’ heads in place of his arms, and he quite nearly killed Zeus, but he too was eventually vanquished and he was buried under Mt Aetna in Sicily. Volcanic eruptions and earthquakes were supposed to be him rumbling around under the ground, struggling to get free and causing the mountains to spew up molten rock. In a different version he is killed and, like his brother Kronos before him, cast into the deepest pit in the Underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Combos**  &#xD;&#xA;     &#xD;&#xA;For some reason, within the rogues' gallery of their own myths, the Greeks found Typhon to be the most compelling counterpart to the Egyptian Seth, so that in their retelling of the story of Asaru and Seth, Asaru is called Osiris but Seth is called Typhon. The details of the story change quite a bit, though, and more details are added, seemingly randomly in some versions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In 100 AD, a collection of essays by the Greco-Roman writer Plutarch was published, entitled *Ethika* (and called *Moralia* in Latin). The first essay in Book 5 of this collection is called *Peri Isidos kai Osiridos*, “On Isis and Osiris,” which records many details of Ancient Egyptian priestly rites as well as the story of Osiris’ murder and restoration, together with some densely allegorical interpretation of these myths and the characters featured in them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [the second portion of the essay](https://archive.org/stream/moraliainfiftee05plut#page/76/mode/2up), Plutarch remarks very briefly about Typhon, Hierosolymos and Ioudaios, at which bit of information he seems to roll his eyes in disbelief, skating quickly over it and on to the next thing. Referencing the conflict between Ḥor (Horus) and Seth (Typhon), the remark is as follows [*with my own emphasis*].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But those who relate that Typhon's flight from the battle was made on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the back of a donkey and lasted for seven days, and that after he had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; made his escape, he became the father of sons, **Hierosolymos and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ioudaios**, are manifestly, as the very names show, attempting to drag&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jewish traditions into the legend.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;William Watson Goodwin’s translation ends the sentence with “they are manifestly attempting, as is shown by the very matter, to wrest into this fable the relations of the Jews.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greek word that Goodwin is translating as “fable” (and which Frank Cole Babbitt renders, in the preceding quote, as “legend”) is *mythos*. Also in this passage of the Greek text there is not really a word which means “[*Jewish*] **traditions**” (as per Babbitt) or “[*the*] **relations** [*of the Jews*]” (going by Goodwin). These English phrases are Babbitt’s and Goodwin’s translations of the single word Ἰουδαϊκὰ (`Ioudaïkà`), “Judaica,” [which word by itself](http://www.dictionary.com/browse/judaica?s=t) bears a broader semantic range.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**THE ROSCHER MATERIAL**  &#xD;&#xA;***Reference 1***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That single sentence of Plutarch’s work is what Roscher’s Dictionary which you have mentioned is referencing. Plutarch never expounds on what any of that is all about, as he seems to have no interest in this version of this *aition* (origin tale), but the duration of the escape to which he alludes is supposed to explain the seven-day week in Hebrew tradition and its emphasis on the Sabbath Day which ends it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Gnosticism of the centuries around Plutarch’s time there were some pretty weird connections drawn between donkeys, Seth-Typhon, and the God of the Hebrews (whose name was translated—or, more accurately, trans*liter*ated—into Greek as `Iao`, and who was further identified with Seth-Typhon). Part of this is supposed to be based on certain passages in the Hebrew Scriptures, especially the Torah (the “Instruction” Books), which seem to infer the importance of donkeys. These late Greco-Egyptian Gnostic riffs seem to be the source-pool for Plutarch’s cursory citation of Ioudaios. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Plutarch, however, never says that Ioudaios (or his brother Hierosolymos) is supposed to be a god or that he was worshipped by anyone. This curious yarn is one of many attempts, from around the same period, to link the *Ioudaioi*/Jews, in terms of Greek mythology, to other peoples like the Thebans, the Cretans and the Trojans. This is achieved almost exclusively through the use of puns made between the word *Ioudaios* and the names of other characters and places in Greek myth. The *aition* in *Ethika* bears negative sentiments towards the Jews while there are numerous others, many of which are more favourably disposed towards them, some of them by writers who are Hellenised Jews or of Greco-Jewish stock or persuasion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Reference 2:* Stephanos Byzantios**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roscher’s Dictionary also cites the [*Ethnikon* of Stephanos Byzantios](https://archive.org/stream/stephanibyzanti00meingoog#page/n346/mode/2up) [better known in English as Stephanus of Byzantium], a 500s AD dictionary of the world's peoples, which traces the *Ioudaioi* and the *`Idoumaioi`* (Idumaeans/ Edomites) to Ioudas (“Judas,” a Greek form of Yəhūḏāh/Judah) and Idoumaia (the Greek name for the region of Edom, called *Idumaea* by the Romans). The *Ethnikon* tells us that, according to Alexander Polyhistor, Ioudas and Idoumaia [or rather *Idoumaios* {Idumaeus}?] were the sons of the powerful legendary Assyrian queen Semiramis (who herself was the daughter of a goddess). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But the portion of the relevant passage of the *Ethnikon* which is actually cited by the “Iudaios” article in Roscher’s Dictionary is when Stephanus says that another writer, Claudius Iolaus, traces the Ioudaioi to Ούδαίοσ (Oudaios), whom the Romans called Udæus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This comes from the story of the Canaanite prince Kadmos [Cadmus], whose sister Europa was abducted by Zeus and brought to the island of Crete, eventually giving her name to the European continent. Kadmos ended up in the region of Boiotia [Boeotia] during his search for his sister. Here he killed a dragon which had attacked some of his men and, upon the prompting of the goddess Athena, he planted the dragon’s teeth in the ground. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These teeth then spontaneously sprouted into huge armed men who fought one another to the death until only five of them remained. One of these survivors was named Oudaios. He and the other four remaining *Spartoi*, “Sown Ones,” became the founders of the five oldest families of Thebes, the city which Kadmos then built upon the same spot. (Ekhion, another of the five, married a daughter of Kadmos.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Kadmos’ grandson the wine-god Dionysos [Dionysus] built an army to fight against King Deriades of India, Oudaios was among the god’s forces. (Incidentally other writers, including Aristotle, trace the Jews to Indian philosophers, based on the apparent similarity between *Ioudaioi* and *`Indoi`*, “Indians.”)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The connection between the Jews and the Cretans is supposed to be that *Ioudaioi* comes from *`Idaioi`*, “Idaeans,” the inhabitants of Mt Ida on Crete Island, who had reared Zeus when the king of the gods was a baby. The link between the Jews and the Trojans comes from an ethnic group called the Solymoi (Latinised: *Solymi*, Anglicised: *Solymians*) which inhabited a region of Asia Minor in the vicinity of Troy and are supposed to have been descended from Solymos, a son of either Zeus or Ares. In this *aition*, Hierosolymos, a Greco-Roman version of the name Jerusalem, was built by the Solymoi. (In this instance Hierosolymos could then be translated as “Sacred Solymos” or &quot;Holy Solymian.”)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**CONCLUSION**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These are just a sampling of the numerous speculative fictions about Jewish origins in ancient Greco-Roman literature. The aforementioned Indians were supposed, according Nonnus’ *Dionysiaka*, to have been named after Indos [*`Indus`* in Latin], an earth-born “champion of warfare with towering limbs”. *Dionysiaka* 18 seems to be saying that Indos fought on Kronos’ side during the War of the Titans, ending up slain in combat by Zeus. In a footnote to their translation of this passage of Nonnus’ epic, W.H.D. Rouse, H.J. Rose &amp; L.R. Lind say the following [*with my emphases and additional notations*]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The giant Indos seems to have been invented for the occasion. Greeks,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; especially in later times, were very free with such stop-gap ancestors&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of peoples whose history they did not know, as Italos, king of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Italians, **Iudaios** [*sic*]&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; **and Hierosolymos, leaders of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jews**, and so forth.   &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Page 82 of Vol. 2&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;5. **`Iudaios`** seems to be the German spelling of **`Ioudaios`**, which [with the first “o” included] is a closer transliteration of the Greek Ἰουδαῖος.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;POSTSCRIPT&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even though W.H. Roscher serves as general editor of the *Ausführliches Lexikon der griechischen und römischen Mythologie*, somewhat ironically (or at least *I* think so), this *Lexikon*’s “Iudaios” article is actually written by someone else: Otto Höfer, one of Roscher’s fellow contributors. The article immediately preceding the “Iudaios” one, on the other hand, is entitled “Iudaea,” and, incidentally, is personally by Roscher himself. Here it is:&lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Iudaea article from Roscher Lexikon de Mythologie][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is my [novice's] translation thereto, with some explanatory notes added:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Iudaea/Judaea**, the personification of the Jewish land often&#xD;&#xA;&gt; appearing on coins of Vespasianus either in front of a palm tree or in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; front of a tropaion [*victory monument*], or on a Lorica [*body&#xD;&#xA;&gt; armour*], or between arms, and weeping (*Cohen*, *Imperial Medals*&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; 1 p. 384 ff., No. 224 ff.).&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Similar representations can be found on the coins of Titus (*Cohen*,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ibid. p. 438 ff., No. 112ff.).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Vespasian denarius][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;`Iudæa Capta`, *“Captive Judaea,”* denarius *such as described by Roscher*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Vespasian[us] was the Roman Emperor who, through his son Titus (who later succeeded him on the throne), violently crushed the Jewish uprising centred at Jerusalem in the early 70s AD. By the end of the conflict the famous Jerusalem Temple and another Jewish temple in Egypt were completely destroyed, as Judaea Province was left devastated. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Vespasian Judaea Capta Sestertius][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Sestertius *of Vespasian with* `Iudæa Capta`&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The personification described here is similar to other countries and territories which were personified by the Romans, such as their provinces of Mauretania and Egypt on the southern shores of the Mediterranean Sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Gallia/Germania? at the Hadrianeum][4]][4]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Carole Raddato, in [“The Hadrianeum and the Personifications of Provinces” article](https://followinghadrian.com/2015/01/21/the-hadrianeum-and-the-personifications-of-provinces/) of her *Following Hadrian* blog, speculates that this woman is the province of either Gallia [Gaul, now France] or Germania [now Germany and several of its neighbouring countries], from the temple of the deified emperor Hadrian.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also [some debate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africa_(goddess)) about an apparent Roman goddess called Africa, which seems to have arisen from the time of the conqueror Pompey and his depictions of the southern Roman province of Africa as a woman. This, however, might be not much different from the aforementioned misunderstanding about Ioudaios (the “son of Typhon” in *Ethika*). The confusion here may be similar to saying that there was actually a Roman goddess called Iudæa (a claim which I'm surprised that that &quot;Cascade Assembly&quot; article hasn't yet leapt upon).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;6. *With thanks to Mario [another StackExchange user] for providing the link to it (in his own Answer to this Question).*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/eGDOp.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/tudCc.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/M5LrW.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/9WKJD.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19029" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5684" RevisionGUID="66412f1b-8a37-454a-b5a4-6735dae4d4ff" CreationDate="2019-05-26T22:08:00.730" UserId="57" Text="In Hesiod's *Works and Days*, we learn that Zeus hid fire from humankind in anger because Prometheus had deceived him:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  For the gods keep hidden from men the means of life. Else you would easily do work enough in a day to supply you for a full year even without working; soon would you put away your rudder over the smoke, and the fields worked by ox and sturdy mule would run to waste. But Zeus in the anger of his heart hid it, because Prometheus the crafty deceived him; therefore he planned sorrow and mischief against men. He hid fire; but that the noble son of Iapetus stole again for men from Zeus the counsellor in a hollow fennel-stalk, so that Zeus who delights in thunder did not see it. But afterwards Zeus who gathers the clouds said to him in anger:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Son of Iapetus, surpassing all in cunning,  you are glad that you have outwitted me and stolen fire—a great plague to you yourself and to men that shall be. But I will give men as the price for fire an evil thing in which they may all be glad of heart while they embrace their own destruction.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Hesiod. The Homeric Hymns and Homerica with an English Translation by Hugh G. Evelyn-White. Works and Days. Cambridge, MA.,Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1914.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How did Prometheus deceive Zeus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19030" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5684" RevisionGUID="66412f1b-8a37-454a-b5a4-6735dae4d4ff" CreationDate="2019-05-26T22:08:00.730" UserId="57" Text="How did Prometheus deceive Zeus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19031" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5684" RevisionGUID="66412f1b-8a37-454a-b5a4-6735dae4d4ff" CreationDate="2019-05-26T22:08:00.730" UserId="57" Text="|greek|zeus|prometheus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19032" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5685" RevisionGUID="b8e819d8-2836-4482-87b4-4d19f281493f" CreationDate="2019-05-26T22:08:00.730" UserId="57" Text="Prometheus, acting on behalf of humankind, managed to trick Zeus into accepting only the bones and smoke of sacrificed animals - leaving the best bits, the edible meat and fat, to humans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The tale, known as the [trick at Mecone][1], can be found in another of Hesiod's works, the *Theogony*: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For when the gods and mortal men had a dispute at Mecone, even then Prometheus was forward to cut up a great ox and set portions before them, trying to befool the mind of Zeus. Before the rest he set flesh and inner parts thick with fat upon the hide, covering them with an ox paunch; but for Zeus he put the white bones dressed up with cunning art and covered with shining fat. Then the father of men and of gods said to him: “Son of Iapetus, most glorious of all lords, good sir, how unfairly you have divided the portions!”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So said Zeus whose wisdom is everlasting, rebuking him. But wily Prometheus answered him, smiling softly and not forgetting his cunning trick: “Zeus, most glorious and greatest of the eternal gods, take which ever of these portions your heart within you bids.&quot; So he said, thinking trickery. But Zeus, whose wisdom is everlasting, saw and failed not to perceive the trick, and in his heart he thought mischief against mortal men which also was to be fulfilled. With both hands he took up the white fat and was angry at heart, and wrath came to his spirit when he saw the white ox-bones craftily tricked out: and because of this the tribes of men upon earth burn white bones to the deathless gods upon fragrant altars.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But Zeus who drives the clouds was greatly vexed and said to him: “Son of Iapetus, clever above all! So, sir, you have not yet forgotten your cunning arts!”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So spake Zeus in anger, whose wisdom is everlasting; and from that time he was always mindful of the trick, and would not give the power of unwearying fire to the Melian race of mortal men who live on the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Hesiod. The Homeric Hymns and Homerica with an English Translation by Hugh G. Evelyn-White. Theogony. Cambridge, MA.,Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1914.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trick_at_Mecone" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19033" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1758" RevisionGUID="d9c34e75-bb33-4bdd-a5d8-ae58e5349fd8" CreationDate="2019-05-26T22:29:08.143" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar, improved formatting &amp; tweaked some details" Text="All the three peoples in question are just as human as most others who inhabit the cosmos of Greek myth, granted that in this mythology all human beings are somewhat &quot;magical&quot; and of virtually comicbook divine origin. The Greeks believed that pretty much every tribe and nation in the world was descended from a child of one of their gods, which would mean that, technically, the very first of those peoples, especially their monarchs, were barely human, if at all. They were something beyond that: the bridge between God, or the gods, and whatever we are now.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What makes peoples like Kimmerioi [Cimmerians], Hyperboreoi [Hyperboreans] and Aithiopes [Ethiopians] special is more so their lifestyles, lifespans and/or geographical locations. Peoples living in wintry places have tended to romanticise parts of the world which do not experience the long seasons of extreme cold and frost occurring annually outside the tropics. This idealisation seems to be what transpired with the Aithiopes of Greek myth, who literally still today live in a land of perpetual summer and spring. It is possible that with the Hyperboreoi, who lived in a land far north of Greece, the mythographers were referring to a tropical region on the other side of the planet, regarding which they had acquired a bit of vague information (and which would be somewhere on the shores of the Pacific Ocean). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whatever the case that can be made on that is, the dwelling-places of the Hyperboreoi and the Aithiopes were so desirable that their lifestyles were imagined as virtually indistinguishable from those of the gods or from the dead who ended up on the Blessed Islands, which in themselves sound to me quite Polynesian or like tourist attractions on the East African coast.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;[![Watamu, Kenya][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;*Watamu Town, Kenya*&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hence the idea either that these peoples were immortal or extremely long-lived and that even if they died, like the Hyperboreoi, e.g., death was a lovely affair involving metamorphosis into a swan in their local Eridanos River, the most beautiful stream of water in the world. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### THE KIMMERIOI ###&#xD;&#xA;With the Kimmerioi the opposite extreme was imagined in terms of their climate, which was perpetually dark, cold and misty, and in the middle of which, according to Ovid's *Metamorphoses*, Sleep and Death themselves made their home. Not all the myths agree in placing the Kimmerioi in such a situation, but, on account of the ones which do, one might in fact be led to consider the question of how a group of humans could survive in such conditions, how they ended up there in the first place, and why they would remain thus. Granted that there *are* inhabited parts of the world (much farther away than the myths locate the Kimmerioi, though) in which it is consecutive nighttime for long stretches of time, up to six months. This is, however, obversely interrupted by reciprocal lengths of consecutive daytime.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A.S. Kline's website [Poetry in Translation](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/OdindexBCDE.htm#Cimmerians) summarises the Kimmerioi as &quot;People living near the entrance to Hades... Herodotus places them in Scythia, and the modern name Crimea is perhaps derived from these sources. But Homer may have used the name to encompass all the peoples of Northern Europe.&quot; The Kimmerioi are mentioned both by Pliny the Elder and by Herodotus in close connection with the Skythoi [Scythians], who it is easy to locate in certain parts of Eastern Europe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### THE AITHIOPES &amp; THE HYPERBOREOI ###&#xD;&#xA;In Hesiod's *Catalogues of Women*, Gaia [the Earth] consorts both with her grandson the sea-god Poseidon and with her great-grandson Epaphos, the latter of whom is the Greek rendition of the Egyptian god Hapi [Apis]. Together they produce a number of nations inhabiting Africa and a few other places. Among these offspring are: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - the &quot;high-souled&quot; **Aithiopes**, whose domain stretched from South Sudan, and possibly Kenya, to India and southern Europe. (The term *Aithiopes* sometimes seems to have incorporated certain Indian and Arabian tribes, such as the Blemmyēs in Nonnus' epic the *Dionysiaka* [300s/400s AD], although according to the geographer Strabo [1st century BC—1st century AD], those Aithiopes &quot;who are in Asia, and those who are in Africa, do not differ from each other.&quot;) By the time of the Egyptian merchant Kosmas Indikopleustes, &quot;Cosmas Who Sailed to India&quot; [500s AD], *Aithiopes* denoted African peoples as far south as Zimbabwe. According to Pliny the Elder, this vast land &quot;Aethiopia&quot; was named after Aethiops, a son of the blacksmith-god Vulcan [the Roman Hephaistos]. (Perhaps his mother was a daughter of Epaphos and Gaia?)      &#xD;&#xA; - the &quot;dark&quot; Libyēs [Libyans]  &#xD;&#xA; - Pygmaioi, &quot;Pygmies,&quot; who lived in Libya and Morocco and are&#xD;&#xA;   connected with skilled metallurgy [like the Svartálfar, &quot;Black Elves,&quot; of&#xD;&#xA;   Norse mythology]&#xD;&#xA; - &quot;the boundless tribes of&quot; Melanokhrotoi [*Blackskins*]: more Svartálf-like people? &#xD;&#xA;[![Osiris the Lord of Perfect Black][2]][2] &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;*Or like (per one of this god's titles) Osiris* &quot;the Lord of Perfect Black&quot;?&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Katoudaioi, [gnomes?] who lived underground, perhaps somewhere in Tunisia (and maybe the same as an ethnic group mentioned by Josephus as descended from Abraham and Keturah)&#xD;&#xA; - Hemikynoi [*Half-Dogs*], a &quot;proud&quot; race of Anubis-like dog-headed people &#xD;&#xA;[![St Christopher Cynocephalus][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;*In mediaeval Europe it was supposed that St Christopher had been one of them.*&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &quot;mare-milking&quot; **Skythoi**, closely associated with the **Kimmerioi**, even said to be the same as them. (In another version they are the descendants of Skythes son of Herakles [Hercules].)&#xD;&#xA; - Massagetai, a confederation of Eastern Iranian peoples also very&#xD;&#xA;   closely linked with the Skythoi and purported to be the ancestors of&#xD;&#xA;   the Alans, the Huns and the Goths. A popular ancient account (such as&#xD;&#xA;   reported, e.g., by Herodotus) of the death of Cyrus the Great, who&#xD;&#xA;   founded the Achaemenid Empire, is that Queen Tomyris of the&#xD;&#xA;   Massagetai killed him in battle.&#xD;&#xA; - and the **Hyperboreoi**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of the 9 groups listed above, only one, the Hemikynoi, for sure is not human (or is part human and part canine). My descriptions of the Melanokhrotoi and Katoudaioi are merely attempted interpretations which might be wrong, but my point being that in general this passage of the *Catalogues* is certainly intended to supply the ancestral origin of various ordinary human tribes in the Mediterranean Basin and around it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(One additional and especially notable exception only appears a little bit later in the passage, mentioning Laistrygon son of Poseidon, presumably by Gaia, from whom descended the monstrous man-eaters called the Laistrygones [Laestrygonians], who are encountered by the unfortunate Odysseus and his fellow Ithakan sailors in the *Odyssey*. Based on their description in the epic, they seem to have been gigantic in size, in particular their queen at the time, who was as large as a mountain.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no myth I'm aware of which indicates that any of these peoples existed before other humans necessarily. In fact, if the *Catalogues* are the main source for their origin story, then we know for certain, going by the chronology of the myths, that all these peoples are fairly young in comparison to other groups of the world. If they are descended from Epaphos, then they would've been born sometime after the Flood, since Epaphos is supposed to have survived that cataclysm. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### The Kingdom of Aithiopia ###&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The one discrepancy contained therein is that Epaphos' close friend and relative Phaethon was a prince of Aithiopia. This Phaethon is the son of the Sun who crashed to Earth and burned attempting to drive his father's flaming chariot. It is his own land to which Phaethon is said to have done the most damage with the Sun's fire, crashing the chariot into what is now the Sahara Desert. Phaethon's mother the Oceanid Klymene had divorced the Sun and married King Merops of Aithiopia, becoming an African queen. Merops seems to have been a regular mortal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Centuries later, Poseidon's daughter the sea-goddess Benthesikyme also married an Aithiopian king, this one named Enalos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A few generations before the reign of Enalos, Perseus (who slew the Gorgon Medusa) married Princess Andromeda of Aithiopia. Andromeda's parents Kepheus and Kassiopeia, who were rather human although they were close descendants of Zeus and Poseidon, may have held some territory on the border of Israel.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perses, the eldest child of Perseus and Andromeda, became king of Aithiopia when he grew up and then he also founded the Persian Empire, naming it after himself. Two of Perses' younger brothers were close ancestors of Herakles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Messagenet Communications Research also has an article on the [Aithiopians](http://messagenetcommresearch.com/myths/ppt/Ethiopians_1.html) which summarises them quite well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### The Kingdom of Hyperborea ###&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Pindar's description of the fabulously paradisaical land beyond the northern Rhipaion mountains it is always party-time among the Hyperboreoi, who are into both their music and their magic, as well as dancing. They also, however, take quite seriously the annual offering of first-fruits to Apollon [Apollo] held on the Cycladic island of Delos which was sacred to the god. For their first ever contribution to this they sent out a delegation of two of their young women together with five men who were to hand-deliver the offering to Delos, half a world away from their country, beyond a nigh-impassable mountain barrier. The delegates never made it back, however, and the Hyperboreoi seem to have thought that they had been murdered, so they opted to have the sacrifice couriered instead, via a chain network of peoples starting with their closest neighbours going towards the Cyclades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zabios was a king of Hyperborea whose daughter Themisto bore Apollon a son, Galeus. The oracle of Zeus at Dodona instructed Galeus to migrate from Hyperborea to Sicily where he built a sanctuary to his father Apollon. He was the ancestor of the Galeotai, a family of Sicilian soothsayers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The names of several other Hyperboreoi occur in the mythology. The only ones among them that don't seem to be human are the children of Boreas himself: three sons who were, according to Aaron Atsma on [The Theoi Project](http://www.theoi.com/Gigante/GigantesHyperboreades.html), winged, gigantic, immortal high priests of Apollon who served the Hyperboreoi; and three daughters Oupis, Hekaerge and Loxo, described as hunter nymphs who introduced the worship of Apollon's twin sister Artemis to Delos Island.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I have said this much of the Hyperboreoi, and let it suffice; for I&#xD;&#xA;&gt; do not tell the story of that Abaris, alleged to be a Hyperboreos [Hyperborean], who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; carried the [flying] arrow over the whole world, fasting all the while. But if&#xD;&#xA;&gt; there are men beyond Boreas [the North Wind], then there are others&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beyond the south. And I laugh to see how many have before now drawn&#xD;&#xA;&gt; maps of the world, not one of them reasonably; for they draw the world&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as round as if fashioned by compasses, encircled by the Okeanos River,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and Asia and Europe of a like extent. For myself, I will in a few&#xD;&#xA;&gt; words indicate the extent of the two, and how each should be drawn.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;~ Herodotus, *Histories* 4.36&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/8FRJ9.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/FU2Ru.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/fVNHK.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19034" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5673" RevisionGUID="bae7c2b0-9205-4579-98ab-573ff5d7fa37" CreationDate="2019-05-26T22:48:51.640" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="**Not Alone**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Odyssey*, in fact, Kirke [Circe] does not live all by her lonesome on the island of Aiaia [Aeaea]. In Book 10, Odysseus says that Kirke's house was tended to by certain wood-nymphs, who &quot;come from groves&quot;, and by a couple of varieties of water-nymphs, who &quot;come from springs&quot; and &quot;from the sacred rivers flowing seawards&quot;. It is unspecified whether these nymphs are local to the island but it seems reasonable from the narration to understand them as Aiaia's indigenous inhabitants. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Madeline Miller's *Circe*, after Helios banishes the title character to the island, the place eventually becomes a sort of juvenile delinquent rehabilitation centre for wayward nymphs, which then explains the origin of the goddess's attendants. The only other sentient lifeforms on the island are wild animals. Other ancient sources describe Kirke's situation, however, similarly to what we read in the *Odyssey*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like other goddesses, Kirke is waited upon by other lesser divinities. (Cf. the great Artemis, who is famed for haunting the mountain wildernesses of Arkadia [Arcadia] and Lakonia [Laconia], in which activity she is sometimes accompanied by sixty Oceanids, from another class of water-nymph.) According to Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautica* 4, all of Kirke's housework is done by Naiads (river-nymphs), or at least such is the case in the generation before the Trojan War, when the divine witch's niece Medeia [Medea] visits her. In Ovid's *Metamorphoses*, upon Odysseus' arrival on Aiaia, even Nereids (from a group of powerful sea-goddesses) are among the nymphs tasked with sorting through Kirke's herbs and weaving materials.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Admittedly, Miller's novel actually does not contradict any of this, since these attendant nymphs are almost always incidental background extras in the scenes in which they appear in the ancient texts, unnamed and *sans* lines of dialogue, so it is in fact open to interpretation how exactly they might have gotten there. My interpretation is that they are simply minor deities filling their spots in the hierarchy under a greater deity, just as it is, for instance, in the entourages of Aphrodite and Dionysos [Dionysus].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Odyssey* there is another goddess who is very similar to Kirke in terms of her relations with Odysseus, namely the sea-nymph Kalypso [Calypso], whose island of Ogygia is described in even more dramatic terms as a deserted place, very seldom visited by any other living beings, including the gods themselves. Upon his arrival there to deliver a message, the god Hermes is almost complaining while mentioning how he had to &quot;traverse those endless briny waters, with not one town to be seen where human beings make sacrifice to the gods&quot; in order to reach this destination. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But even here Kalypso has handmaids (presumably fellow nymphs) to serve her meals. (In Book 5 they seem to pop out of nowhere with dishes of nectar and ambrosia, never having been mentioned before; nor do they come up again after the meal scene herein.) Remarkably, in *Fabulae* 125, the Roman writer Hyginus says that it is *Kalypso* who lives on Aiaia Island! (With such anomalies, when it comes to Hyginus, however, one can generally assume that he is confusing one character or aspect of the story with another.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Not Imprisoned**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From what I could find, there is no ancient reference to any idea that Kirke is sequestered to or incarcerated on Aiaia. On the character-writing level, the reason she resides in her seclusion (relatively speaking) seems to be in order to increase the spookiness and mystique of this very powerful immortal witch. Within the story itself, as with Kalypso, although it is not explicitly mentioned, the reason for the seclusion appears to be simply because this is the manner in which she wants to live.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Metamorphoses* 14, Kirke meets and falls in love with Picus, the semidivine king of Ausonia on the Italian mainland, because she goes into the hills of Laurentum in search of herbs. Line 348 is somewhat ambiguous as to where Kirke is coming *from* on this occasion, saying that &quot;she had left the Circaean fields, called so from her own name.&quot; Presumably this refers to a place on Aiaia. Depending on where one locates the otherwise mythical island, this might not be saying much, since, in Roman times, it seems to have been identified with a place which would have been within Picus's territory. According to A.S. Kline's [Poetry in Translation website](https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/MetindexBCD.php#Circe), Aiaia is not really a proper island but rather&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;the promontory of Circeii. (Cape Circeo between Anzio and Gaeta, on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the west coast of Italy, now part of the magnificent *Parco Nazionale&#xD;&#xA;&gt; del Circeo* extending to Capo Portiere in the north, and providing a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reminder of the ancient Pontine Marshes before they were drained, rich&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in wildfowl and varied tree species.) Cicero mentions that Circe was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; worshipped religiously by the colonists at Circei.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the beginning of the same *Metamorphoses* book, Kirke travels on foot across the sea, &quot;dry shod&quot;, seemingly at an incredibly rapid pace, to get from her palace to the Strait of Messina where she proceeds to poison the waters which soon afterwards transform the beautiful sea-nymph Scylla into a humongous monster. If Kline's identification of Aiaia with Cape Circeo is correct then the goddess has basically walked roughly half the distance down the entire western coastline of southern Italy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Westwards to Warmer Weather**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautica* appears to support this identification, having Kirke's brother Aietes [Aeëtes] locate her roughly in the same neighbourhood, albeit in Tyrrhenia, which was to be found farther northwards in Italy. In Book 3 Aietes tells the Argonauts that he accompanied his father Helios in his chariot when the Sun-Titan was taking Kirke to Tyrrhenia. No further context of the circumstances at the time is provided.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Valerius Flaccus' *Argonautica* suggests that Kirke, earlier in her life, lived with Aietes in the land of Colchis, over which country her brother ruled as king. In Book 7 Medeia reminisces of the time when her aunt was carried away from there &quot;by winged serpents&quot; or dragons, and apparently the implication is that these reptilian creatures were the steeds of Helios' chariot in the scene mentioned by Apollonius. This would mean that Kirke lived with Aietes at least until his daughter Medeia was old enough to remember her leaving.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the same book, Aphrodite appears to Medeia disguised as Kirke, and Medeia  interrogates her as to why she left, seemingly a long time previous to this encounter. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;What sojourning was more pleasing to you than my father’s land?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This implies that, whatever the case, Kirke departed from Colchis of her own free will, or at least, as far as Medeia is aware, it was not under any duress. Aphrodite, still in disguise, responds with a few jibes about Colchis, calling it eternally cold and its inhabitants &quot;unprofitable&quot;. She then goes on to boast about how she is now the consort of Picus and, by extension, so it seems, also queen of Ausonia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If not for what we know of the interaction between Kirke and Picus in the *Metamorphoses*, we might not necessarily think to doubt what Aphrodite reports here about those two characters. Ovid tells the story of how Kirke tried to woo Picus and, being rebuffed by him, transformed him into a woodpecker. Nothing further is said there about her thereafter taking over his kingdom or anything of the like, an interest which she does not seem to have held.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Bad Tree, Bad Fruit**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia claims that: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Some say she was exiled to the solitary island of Aeaea by her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; subjects and her father Helios for killing her husband, the prince of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Colchis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To me this seems to be almost certainly confounding Medeia's story with that of Kirke. Medeia is famous for having killed her own brother, who would have been the prince of Colchis, while being pursued on her way out of the country by her father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There does happen to be one ancient source, though, which fleshes out Kirke's &quot;supervillain origin story,&quot; although this a late euhemerisation mentioned by Diodorus Siculus in his *Library of History,* in which Aietes and Perses are sons of Helios who are made out to be cruel barbarian kings in Eastern Europe. Perses becomes the father of Hekate [Hecate], who is not a Titan goddess here at all but rather a human princess who grows up to be an even viler individual than her father. After assassinating Perses using poison she succeeds him on his throne and founds the temple of Artemis Tauropolos, &quot;commanding that strangers who landed there should be sacrificed to the goddess&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After this she married her uncle Aietes and bore him children, among whom were Kirke and Medeia, the former of whom, being just as awful as her parents, proved that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree but the latter of whom, rather, *dis*proved this saying, becoming an advocate for practising proper hospitality towards strangers rather than killing them for sacrifice.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From her mother as well as her own studies, Kirke became most proficient in the knowledge and use of drugs (i.e. herbs for sorcery). According to the *Library of History* 4.45.4-5, Kirke was then&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; given in marriage to the king of the Sarmatai [Sarmatians], whom some&#xD;&#xA;&gt; call Skythoi [Scythians], and first she poisoned her husband and after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that, succeeding to the throne, she committed many cruel and violent&#xD;&#xA;&gt; acts against her subjects.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; For this reason she was deposed from her throne and, according to some&#xD;&#xA;&gt; writers of myths, fled to Okeanos [Oceanus], where she seized a desert&#xD;&#xA;&gt; island, and there established herself with the women who had fled with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her, though according to some historians she left Pontos [Pontus] and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; settled in Italy on a promontory which to this day bears after her the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; name Kirkaion [Circaeum].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Neither in this version nor in any other is anything explicitly said about any relative of Kirke (whether father, grandfather or uncle) exiling her anywhere. In fact in the mainstream version of the mythology, in which she is undoubtedly an immortal goddess, her presence on Aiaia seems to be as much a gift to her from her father as it is for Helios to give Colchis to Aietes. (Granted that the latter of these is told to us in generally less ambiguous terms, with Helios showering Aietes with a variety of divine presents conveyed from other gods after he has settled in Colchis.)  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19035" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5678" RevisionGUID="cab646f5-538d-4c45-a39f-e7cff769a948" CreationDate="2019-05-26T23:05:19.273" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; tweaked some details" Text="**Why *These* Persons?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Within the story the explanation is that these men, when they were alive in the upper world, conducted their affairs with especial attention to fairness. Minos and Rhadamanthys in particular also established the first laws ever used in Greece. Diodorus Siculus says that Rhadamanthys possessed &quot;great justice&quot;, and that Minos &quot;ruled wholly in accordance with law and paid the greatest heed to justice.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Plato's dialogue entitled *Minos*, the celebrated Athenian philosopher Socrates is deeply engaged in discussion with a friend of his. He alludes to the story about how Minos, every nine years, went up to the Cave of Zeus on Mt Ida on his island of Crete (upon which island both Zeus and Minos were born, as was Rhadamanthys) to consult his father there in order &quot;to learn some things, and to show his knowledge of others that he had learnt from Zeus in the preceding nine years.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Socrates then credits Minos with having somehow legislated moderation in the social consumption of alcohol on Crete, using this as an example of the sort of lawmaking wisdom Minos gained from having been, as he puts it, &quot;a disciple of Zeus&quot;. Rhadamanthys, in his turn, was educated in legal matters by Minos, who then appointed him as his attorney general.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Socrates' friend, while acknowledging Rhadamanthys, points out that Minos is notorious for having been &quot;a savage sort of person, harsh and unjust&quot;. In his defense, Socrates says that the one mistake which Minos made was going to war against Athens, the work of whose tragic poets is so influential that it could easily destroy the reputation of a just and competent ruler such as Minos certainly was. To reinforce his position, Socrates points out, again, that they in Greece, himself and his fellow Athenians included, were still being governed by the wise laws established by Minos (and Rhadamanthys), who had acquired them directly from Zeus, the god of justice himself. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Life of Theseus*, Plutarch, who studied philosophy in Athens, seems to be referencing this dialogue when he confirms the idea that it was the poets of the tragedy genre who tarnished Minos' reputation. Curiously, Philostratus puts it in the opposite way in the *Life of Apollonius of Tyana*, which says that Minos was&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a man who exceeded all men in cruelty, and who enslaved with his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; navies the inhabitants of continent and islands alike, and yet they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [*the poets*] honour him by placing in his hand a sceptre of justice and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; give him a throne in Haides [Hades] to be umpire of spirits.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason for Aiakos [Aeacus] becoming one of these Underworld judges, you have pretty much laid out in your Question. Also Apollodorus tells us that he &quot;was the most pious of men.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Assisting the King**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Inside the story, it is mostly incidental that these judges are Zeus's sons. It just so happens that these particular guys were such highly lawful people that they qualified for the task to which they were appointed in the afterlife. Part of the point of the task is for these fellows to help Hades out in his courtroom as he hears the cases of the dead, whereupon decisions are made as to the final destinations of these deceased souls, whether their end is to be good or bad.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Statius' *Thebaid* seems to suggest that these judges are needed in order to counter the harsh temper of Hades, who is described in Book 8 as &quot;the bloodthirsty king&quot;. The same scene portrays the other deities of the Underworld, particularly the river-gods, as likewise participating in the judgements made in this court.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his 1993 book *The Formation of Hell: Death and Retribution in the Ancient and Early Christian Worlds*, Alan E. Bernstein relates the myth from Plato's *Gorgias* which gives us the establishment of the procedure in which certain dead men judge other dead people in the Underworld. The speaker in this dialogue, once again, is Socrates. On p. 56, Bernstein writes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the time of Kronos the just were sent to the Isles of the Blessed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to live in happiness and the unjust to the &quot;prison of vengeance and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; punishment&quot; called Tartarus (*Gorgias* 523a). The judges, however,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were living humans unduly influenced by the physical appearance, rank,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and lineage of the people they examined. When Zeus and his brother&#xD;&#xA;&gt; took over, Pluto [*Hades*] denounced this bias.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zeus therefore reformed the procedure. Humans would no longer have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; advance knowledge of their death. They would be tried dead, stripped of all&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their worldly accoutrements. The judges, sons of Zeus, would also be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dead, and thus beyond any earthly advantage. From then on Rhadamanthus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tried souls from Asia and Aeacus from Europe. They performed this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; function at the Meadow of the Dividing of the Road, where they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; separated those going to the Isles of the Blessed from those condemned&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to Tartarus (524a). Bearing a golden scepter, Minos presided, ready to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; determine doubtful cases.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Family Ties**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On a different level, it makes sense for Zeus's offspring to be assisting Hades in his courtroom, considering the close association, in the cults of Hades, between the Lord of the Underworld and the king of the gods, to the extent that Hades was almost considered to be simply a netherworldly version of Zeus, referred to by several epithets which amount to something like &quot;Zeus of the Underworld,&quot; a fairly common one being Zeus Khthonios [Chthonius], the &quot;Chthonic Zeus.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The nepotism surrounding those holding the highest positions of power in the universe of Greek mythology is further evidenced by the fact that, as an example, while Zeus is the most important of the Great Twelve Olympian Gods, every single other member of this group is either his sibling or his child (with the exceptions of the versions in which Ares and Aphrodite are not his offspring)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19037" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1583" RevisionGUID="c285993c-6c25-45ca-a7b2-ea46e36799ae" CreationDate="2019-05-27T08:44:42.807" UserId="3230" Comment="fixed spelling and removed commentary" Text="What's an ancient story that's a good example for the plot structure of the monomyth, meaning most of the stations are there?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In my youth I read the popular classical Greek myths as well as a few German (Grimms fairytales, Nibelungenlied) and Norse sagas, and quite a few variations of the king Arthur stories. Either I forgot that some of them followed the monomyth plot structure, or none do, or I'm really bad at spotting plot structures. Supposedly the monomyth is everywhere, but the oldest example that comes to my mind is The Hobbit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've looked at [wikipedia][1] and [these][2] [two][2] TV Tropes pages, but the only examples mentioned where the bible (Jesus and Moses) and the life of Buddha. I'm interested in examples that are not (yawnsome) religious scripture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what is a good, pre-modern example of the monomyth in action? Which story follows the plot structure most closely?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth#See_also&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/TheHeroWithAThousandFaces&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/82/why-according-to-joseph-campbell-is-the-monomyth-so-common" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19038" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1583" RevisionGUID="c285993c-6c25-45ca-a7b2-ea46e36799ae" CreationDate="2019-05-27T08:44:42.807" UserId="3230" Comment="fixed spelling and removed commentary" Text="|monomyth|joseph-campbell|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19040" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5686" RevisionGUID="fb6d8fe2-e804-4d05-ab99-8d72f8f15d25" CreationDate="2019-05-27T11:41:52.180" UserId="3230" Text="From Revelation 4 (KJ21):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt; and before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal. And in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four living beings full of eyes in front and behind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;7&lt;/sup&gt; And the first being was like a lion, and the second being like a calf, and the third being had the face of a man, and the fourth being was like a flying eagle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;8&lt;/sup&gt; And each of the four living beings had six wings about him, and they were full of eyes within; and they rested not day and night, saying, “Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come!”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What do these four living beings represent?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19041" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5686" RevisionGUID="fb6d8fe2-e804-4d05-ab99-8d72f8f15d25" CreationDate="2019-05-27T11:41:52.180" UserId="3230" Text="What do the four living creatures represent?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19042" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5686" RevisionGUID="fb6d8fe2-e804-4d05-ab99-8d72f8f15d25" CreationDate="2019-05-27T11:41:52.180" UserId="3230" Text="|christianity|symbolism|revelation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19043" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="5623" RevisionGUID="c47553a7-d25f-4cf3-8485-5e91c8d30eb7" CreationDate="2019-05-27T13:14:08.880" UserId="57" Comment="87" />
  <row Id="19044" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="5634" RevisionGUID="37e1b4a7-3d32-4898-8ac8-26727418b95b" CreationDate="2019-05-27T13:14:16.243" UserId="57" Comment="88" />
  <row Id="19047" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5650" RevisionGUID="d2c95b86-4b1a-4e95-8422-7836031a24c6" CreationDate="2019-05-27T16:16:21.757" UserId="6040" Comment="added 162 characters in body" Text="A while back I found a small note (which seems to have been removed because of a lack of proper citation) on the Wikipedia article for Bedivere, speaking of his “role in Welsh tradition” and first mentioning:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Bedwyr is one of the earliest characters to be associated with the Arthurian cycle, appearing in a number of early Welsh texts in which he is described as Bedwyr Bedrydant (*Bedwyr of the Perfect Sinews*), a handsome, one-handed knight under Arthur's command. His father is given as Pedrawd or Bedrawd, and his children as Amhren and Eneuawg, both members of Arthur's court.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It went on to say:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He was known to use dark magic to seduce and subdue his foes with great skill and aggression. He was feared by many and although the townspeople frequently asked for his hanging, King Arthur still held him in high regards.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since I have read several places that Bedwyr wielded an enchanted lance, Cei (Kay) and Menw had magical powers (in *Culhwch ac Olwen*, if not elsewhere), and Gwalchmei (Gawain) has solar-powered strength, it made me wonder what the source is for Bedwyr having “dark magic.” I would assume that if he ever had magic it has its origins in the Welsh stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any source for Bedwyr having “dark magic” in Welsh tradition? Is this concept from a more modern retelling? Does it have no basis at all and was justifiably removed from the Wikipedia article?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Edit**: I only have these excerpts from the Bedivere article because I made a copy before it was edited out. The copy I have dates the edit “last modified on 12 April 2014 at 19:32” if that's helpful in some way. I was unable to find the information linked to an external source, however.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Update**: Did a few searches and found [another][1] reference to this sourceless dark magic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Some believe that the reason Bedivere was so skilled in fighting was because he secretly was a friend with a knight who was known for using dark magic. But the main argument supporting that he didn’t use dark magic, is that it was never written in text that he did.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Though this seems to confirm that Bedwyr/Bedivere never used dark magic, I'm still curious about the source of this idea and what has caused &quot;some&quot; to &quot;believe.&quot; Wish there was a mention of a source text, or the name of this friend. The mystery continues.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://knightsirbedivere.weebly.com/introduction.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19048" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5683" RevisionGUID="5293d499-682e-4743-a6a5-5b2f5bf09f32" CreationDate="2019-05-27T16:24:16.647" UserId="4022" Comment="added 116 characters in body" Text="To answer the second part of your question:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; …does this mean they spoke the same as Queen Dido?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Historically, no; mythologically, also no.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While Vergil probably knew nothing about Luwian, or any other dead languages of Anatolia, the Romans were very familiar with the **Punic language** (a dialect of Phoenician) spoken in Carthage. While most Romans wouldn't have been fluent, it was familiar enough for the common greeting _ave!_ &quot;hail!&quot; (as in _Ave Marīa_, &quot;hail Mary&quot;) to be borrowed into Latin: the original form was Punic _ħawe_, &quot;may you live well!&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For some additional evidence, the comedian Plautus uses Punic for some extremely bad bilingual puns in Act V, Scene 2 of his _Patruus_ (&quot;The Uncle&quot;, better known as _Poenulus_, &quot;The Little Carthaginian&quot;). In the following, anything in bold is Punic, anything not in bold is Latin, and I've left out some lines for brevity:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; M: Should I talk to him in Punic?  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; A: You know Punic?  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; M: No Punic is more Punic than me, nowadays!  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; A: Okay, go ask what he wants, why he's come here, who he is, where he's from, what country…don't hold back!  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; M, turning to address the stranger: Um, yes. **Hello!**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; H: **Hello, sir.** (*Avo, donni.*)  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; M: He, uh…wants to give you something! He wants to give you, um, I don't know what…but you can hear it, right? (Latin *donī*, &quot;gifts&quot;)  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; A: Good. Greet him in Punic for me?  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; M: **Hello, sir**, he says, those are his words.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; H: **Is he a friend of yours?** (*Mechar, bocca?*)  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; M: Uh, better you than me, I guess? He's saying that his mouth hurts. Maybe he thinks we're doctors? (Latin *bucca*, &quot;mouth&quot;).  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; H: **There is no doctor here, you absolute idiot.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This continues for a few pages, with H—who clearly understands Latin perfectly—getting more and more annoyed as M insists he's here to present mice and funnels to the police. So it seems Punic was common enough in Rome for Plautus to make bad puns off it. Similarly, both Plautus and Vergil use accurate Punic names for their Carthaginian characters (Elissa &lt; *eliša(t)*, Anna &lt; *ħanna(t)*, etc).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;TL;DR: the Punic language was fairly well-known in ancient Rome, to the point of making terrible puns with it, and Vergil used accurate Punic names for the people Aeneas meets in Carthage. Aeneas's ability to speak Punic is just for the sake of the story—Venus gives him language skills so he can flirt with Dido, perhaps, or a similar handwave.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(The Latin translations are my own; the Punic translations are based on Wolfgang de Milo's appendix to LCL 260.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19049" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5650" RevisionGUID="3894a712-b6aa-4f3e-a30d-a5993a251847" CreationDate="2019-05-27T18:48:26.097" UserId="6040" Comment="minor correction" Text="A while back I found a small note (which seems to have been removed because of a lack of proper citation) on the Wikipedia article for Bedivere, speaking of his “role in Welsh tradition” and first mentioning:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Bedwyr is one of the earliest characters to be associated with the Arthurian cycle, appearing in a number of early Welsh texts in which he is described as Bedwyr Bedrydant (*Bedwyr of the Perfect Sinews*), a handsome, one-handed knight under Arthur's command. His father is given as Pedrawd or Bedrawd, and his children as Amhren and Eneuawg, both members of Arthur's court.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It went on to say:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He was known to use dark magic to seduce and subdue his foes with great skill and aggression. He was feared by many and although the townspeople frequently asked for his hanging, King Arthur still held him in high regards.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since I have read several places that Bedwyr wielded an enchanted lance, Cei (Kay) and Menw had magical powers (in *Culhwch ac Olwen*, if not elsewhere), and Gwalchmei (Gawain) has solar-powered strength, it made me wonder what the source is for Bedwyr having “dark magic.” I would assume that if he ever had magic it has its origins in the Welsh stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any source for Bedwyr having “dark magic” in Welsh tradition? Is this concept from a more modern retelling? Does it have no basis at all and was justifiably removed from the Wikipedia article?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Edit**: I only have these excerpts from the Bedivere article because I made a copy before it was edited out. The copy I have dates the edit “last modified on 12 April 2014 at 19:32” if that's helpful in some way. I was unable to find the information linked to an external source, however.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Update**: Did a few searches and found [another][1] reference to this sourceless dark magic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Some believe that the reason Bedivere was so skilled in fighting was because he secretly was a friend with a knight who was known for using dark magic. But the main argument supporting that he didn’t use dark magic, is that it was never written in text that he did.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Though this seems to confirm that Bedwyr/Bedivere never used dark magic, I'm still curious about the source of this idea and what has caused some to believe in it. Wish there was a mention of a source text, or the name of this friend. The mystery continues.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://knightsirbedivere.weebly.com/introduction.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19050" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5687" RevisionGUID="7ef75c4f-efb6-4d37-bb12-484d44c21cf8" CreationDate="2019-05-27T22:25:08.887" UserId="57" Text="Kersey Graves in *The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors* compiled a list of sixteen messianic figures that preceded Jesus and were crucified on a tree, rock or cross before ascending into heaven. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The oldest one on the list is a Thulis of Egypt:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; X. CRUCIFIXION OF THULIS OF EGYPT, 1700 B.C.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thulis of Egypt, whence comes &quot;Ultima Thule,&quot; died the death of the cross about thirty-five hundred years ago. Ultima Thule was the island which marked the ultimate bounds of the extensive empire of this legitimate descendant of the Gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This Egyptian Savior appears also to have been known as Zulis, and with this name—Mr. Wilkison tells us—&quot;his history is curiously illustrated in the sculptures, made seventeen hundred years B.C., of a small, retired chamber lying nearly over the western adytum of the temple.&quot; We are told twenty-eight lotus plants near his grave indicate the number of years be lived on the earth. After suffering a violent death, he was buried, but rose again, ascended into heaven, and there became &quot;the judge of the dead,&quot; or of souls in a future state. Wilkison says he came down from heaven to benefit mankind, and that he was said to be full of grace and truth.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors. by Kersey Graves&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've tried to find more information on this Thulis (or Zulis or Zhule), but was not successful. It seems that every bit of information about him online inevitably leads back to Graves. I'm not entirely sure who &quot;Mr. Wilkinson&quot; is, but I suspect it is John Gardner Wilkinson, a renowned Egyptologist. Unfortunately, I don't have access to any of his publications. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who is Thulis of Egypt? What else do we know about him?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19051" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5687" RevisionGUID="7ef75c4f-efb6-4d37-bb12-484d44c21cf8" CreationDate="2019-05-27T22:25:08.887" UserId="57" Text="Who is Thulis of Egypt?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19052" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5687" RevisionGUID="7ef75c4f-efb6-4d37-bb12-484d44c21cf8" CreationDate="2019-05-27T22:25:08.887" UserId="57" Text="|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19053" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5673" RevisionGUID="2101ca31-eb15-44f1-a906-a369f83262e7" CreationDate="2019-05-28T01:38:03.693" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="**Not Alone**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Odyssey*, in fact, Kirke [Circe] does not live all by her lonesome on the island of Aiaia [Aeaea]. In Book 10, Odysseus says that Kirke's house is tended to by certain wood-nymphs, who &quot;come from groves&quot;, and by a couple of varieties of water-nymphs, who &quot;come from springs&quot; and &quot;from the sacred rivers flowing seawards&quot;. It is unspecified whether these nymphs are local to the island but it seems reasonable from the narration to understand them as Aiaia's indigenous inhabitants. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Madeline Miller's *Circe*, after Helios banishes the title character to the island, the place eventually becomes a sort of juvenile delinquent rehabilitation centre for wayward nymphs, which then explains the origin of the goddess's attendants. The only other sentient lifeforms on the island are wild animals. Other ancient sources describe Kirke's situation, however, similarly to what we read in the *Odyssey*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like other goddesses, Kirke is waited upon by other lesser divinities. (Cf. the great Artemis, who is famed for haunting the mountain wildernesses of Arkadia [Arcadia] and Lakonia [Laconia], in which activity she is sometimes accompanied by sixty Oceanids, from another class of water-nymph.) According to Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautica* 4, all of Kirke's housework is done by Naiads (river-nymphs), or at least such is the case in the generation before the Trojan War, when the divine witch's niece Medeia [Medea] visits her. In Ovid's *Metamorphoses*, upon Odysseus' arrival on Aiaia, even Nereids (from a group of powerful sea-goddesses) are among the nymphs tasked with sorting through Kirke's herbs and weaving materials.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Admittedly, Miller's novel actually does not contradict any of this, since these attendant nymphs are almost always incidental background extras in the scenes in which they appear in the ancient texts, unnamed and *sans* lines of dialogue, so it is in fact open to interpretation how exactly they might have gotten there. My interpretation is that they are simply minor deities filling their spots in the hierarchy under a greater deity, just as it is, for instance, in the entourages of Aphrodite and Dionysos [Dionysus].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Odyssey* there is another goddess who is very similar to Kirke in terms of her relations with Odysseus, namely the sea-nymph Kalypso [Calypso], whose island of Ogygia is described in even more dramatic terms as a deserted place, very seldom visited by any other living beings, including the gods themselves. Upon his arrival there to deliver a message, the god Hermes is almost complaining while mentioning how he had to &quot;traverse those endless briny waters, with not one town to be seen where human beings make sacrifice to the gods&quot; in order to reach this destination. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But even here Kalypso has handmaids (presumably fellow nymphs) to serve her meals. (In Book 5 they seem to pop out of nowhere with dishes of nectar and ambrosia, never having been mentioned before; nor do they come up again after the meal scene herein.) Remarkably, in *Fabulae* 125, the Roman writer Hyginus says that it is *Kalypso* who lives on Aiaia Island! (With such anomalies, when it comes to Hyginus, however, one can generally assume that he is confusing one character or aspect of the story with another.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Not Imprisoned**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From what I could find, there is no ancient reference to any idea that Kirke is sequestered to or incarcerated on Aiaia. On the character-writing level, the reason she resides in her seclusion (relatively speaking) seems to be in order to increase the spookiness and mystique of this very powerful immortal witch. Within the story itself, as with Kalypso, although it is not explicitly mentioned, the reason for the seclusion appears to be simply because this is the manner in which she wants to live.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Metamorphoses* 14, Kirke meets and falls in love with Picus, the semidivine king of Ausonia on the Italian mainland, because she goes into the hills of Laurentum in search of herbs. Line 348 is somewhat ambiguous as to where Kirke is coming *from* on this occasion, saying that &quot;she had left the Circaean fields, called so from her own name.&quot; Presumably this refers to a place on Aiaia. Depending on where one locates the otherwise mythical island, this might not be saying much, since, in Roman times, it seems to have been identified with a place which would have been within Picus's territory. According to A.S. Kline's [Poetry in Translation website](https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/MetindexBCD.php#Circe), Aiaia is not really a proper island but rather&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;the promontory of Circeii. (Cape Circeo between Anzio and Gaeta, on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the west coast of Italy, now part of the magnificent *Parco Nazionale&#xD;&#xA;&gt; del Circeo* extending to Capo Portiere in the north, and providing a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reminder of the ancient Pontine Marshes before they were drained, rich&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in wildfowl and varied tree species.) Cicero mentions that Circe was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; worshipped religiously by the colonists at Circei.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the beginning of the same *Metamorphoses* book, Kirke travels on foot across the sea, &quot;dry shod&quot;, seemingly at an incredibly rapid pace, to get from her palace to the Strait of Messina where she proceeds to poison the waters which soon afterwards transform the beautiful sea-nymph Scylla into a humongous monster. If Kline's identification of Aiaia with Cape Circeo is correct then the goddess has basically walked roughly half the distance down the entire western coastline of southern Italy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Westwards to Warmer Weather**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautica* appears to support this identification, having Kirke's brother Aietes [Aeëtes] locate her roughly in the same neighbourhood, albeit in Tyrrhenia, which was to be found farther northwards in Italy. In Book 3 Aietes tells the Argonauts that he accompanied his father Helios in his chariot when the Sun-Titan was taking Kirke to Tyrrhenia. No further context of the circumstances at the time is provided.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Valerius Flaccus' *Argonautica* suggests that Kirke, earlier in her life, lived with Aietes in the land of Colchis, over which country her brother ruled as king. In Book 7 Medeia reminisces of the time when her aunt was carried away from there &quot;by winged serpents&quot; or dragons, and apparently the implication is that these reptilian creatures were the steeds of Helios' chariot in the scene mentioned by Apollonius. This would mean that Kirke lived with Aietes at least until his daughter Medeia was old enough to remember her leaving.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the same book, Aphrodite appears to Medeia disguised as Kirke, and Medeia  interrogates her as to why she left, seemingly a long time previous to this encounter. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;What sojourning was more pleasing to you than my father’s land?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This implies that, whatever the case, Kirke departed from Colchis of her own free will, or at least, as far as Medeia is aware, it was not under any duress. Aphrodite, still in disguise, responds with a few jibes about Colchis, calling it eternally cold and its inhabitants &quot;unprofitable&quot;. She then goes on to boast about how she is now the consort of Picus and, by extension, so it seems, also queen of Ausonia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If not for what we know of the interaction between Kirke and Picus in the *Metamorphoses*, we might not necessarily think to doubt what Aphrodite reports here about those two characters. Ovid tells the story of how Kirke tried to woo Picus and, being rebuffed by him, transformed him into a woodpecker. Nothing further is said there about her thereafter taking over his kingdom or anything of the like, an interest which she does not seem to have held.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Bad Tree, Bad Fruit**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia claims that: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Some say she was exiled to the solitary island of Aeaea by her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; subjects and her father Helios for killing her husband, the prince of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Colchis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To me this seems to be almost certainly confounding Medeia's story with that of Kirke. Medeia is famous for having killed her own brother, who would have been the prince of Colchis, while being pursued on her way out of the country by her father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There does happen to be one ancient source, though, which fleshes out Kirke's &quot;supervillain origin story,&quot; although this is a late euhemerisation mentioned by Diodorus Siculus in his *Library of History,* in which Aietes and Perses are sons of Helios who are made out to be cruel barbarian kings in Eastern Europe. Perses becomes the father of Hekate [Hecate], who is not a Titan goddess here at all but rather a human princess who grows up to be an even viler individual than her father. After assassinating Perses using poison she succeeds him on his throne and founds the temple of Artemis Tauropolos, &quot;commanding that strangers who landed there should be sacrificed to the goddess&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After that, Hekate marries her uncle Aietes and bears him children, among whom are Kirke and Medeia, the former of whom, being just as rotten as her parents, proves that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, but the latter of whom, rather, *dis*proves this saying, becoming an advocate for practising proper hospitality towards strangers rather than killing them for sacrifice.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From her mother as well as her own studies, Kirke becomes most proficient in the knowledge and use of drugs (i.e. herbs for sorcery). According to the *Library of History* 4.45.4-5, Kirke is then&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; given in marriage to the king of the Sarmatai [Sarmatians], whom some&#xD;&#xA;&gt; call Skythoi [Scythians], and first she poisoned her husband and after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that, succeeding to the throne, she committed many cruel and violent&#xD;&#xA;&gt; acts against her subjects.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; For this reason she was deposed from her throne and, according to some&#xD;&#xA;&gt; writers of myths, fled to Okeanos [Oceanus], where she seized a desert&#xD;&#xA;&gt; island, and there established herself with the women who had fled with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her, though according to some historians she left Pontos [Pontus] and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; settled in Italy on a promontory which to this day bears after her the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; name Kirkaion [Circaeum].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Neither in this version nor in any other is anything explicitly said about any relative of Kirke (whether father, grandfather or uncle) exiling her anywhere. In fact in the mainstream version of the mythology, in which she is undoubtedly an immortal goddess, her presence on Aiaia seems to be as much a gift to her from her father as it is for Helios to give Colchis to Aietes. (Granted that the latter of these is told to us in generally less ambiguous terms, with Helios showering Aietes with a variety of divine presents conveyed from other gods after he has settled in Colchis.)  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19054" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5688" RevisionGUID="7524d380-8e3a-4b3d-b175-4d40246d6396" CreationDate="2019-05-28T02:18:55.497" UserId="6079" Text="The earliest appearance in Western history and literature is in Herodotus. The Scythians are famous for their gold art objects. He says that way up north in the Altai mountains where the Scythians mined their gold and made their gold objects, there were gryphons guarding piles of gold. The gryphon was a four footed bird. That mythical creature easily turned into the dragon. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19055" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5689" RevisionGUID="c0fdd30b-53db-4e1e-89dc-e2331a1d61e5" CreationDate="2019-05-28T09:40:46.380" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19056" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5689" RevisionGUID="c0fdd30b-53db-4e1e-89dc-e2331a1d61e5" CreationDate="2019-05-28T09:40:46.380" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19057" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5690" RevisionGUID="f8e9abf6-4a1c-41ab-b761-c1c5ccaed445" CreationDate="2019-05-28T09:40:46.380" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19058" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5690" RevisionGUID="f8e9abf6-4a1c-41ab-b761-c1c5ccaed445" CreationDate="2019-05-28T09:40:46.380" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19059" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5687" RevisionGUID="95138a3d-9c4f-4f58-b6be-7ced8d8a4f3f" CreationDate="2019-05-28T09:44:03.550" UserId="57" Comment="added 381 characters in body" Text="Kersey Graves in *The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors* compiled a list of sixteen messianic figures that preceded Jesus and were crucified on a tree, rock or cross before ascending into heaven. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The oldest one on the list is a Thulis of Egypt:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; X. CRUCIFIXION OF THULIS OF EGYPT, 1700 B.C.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thulis of Egypt, whence comes &quot;Ultima Thule,&quot; died the death of the cross about thirty-five hundred years ago. Ultima Thule was the island which marked the ultimate bounds of the extensive empire of this legitimate descendant of the Gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This Egyptian Savior appears also to have been known as Zulis, and with this name—Mr. Wilkison tells us—&quot;his history is curiously illustrated in the sculptures, made seventeen hundred years B.C., of a small, retired chamber lying nearly over the western adytum of the temple.&quot; We are told twenty-eight lotus plants near his grave indicate the number of years be lived on the earth. After suffering a violent death, he was buried, but rose again, ascended into heaven, and there became &quot;the judge of the dead,&quot; or of souls in a future state. Wilkison says he came down from heaven to benefit mankind, and that he was said to be full of grace and truth.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors. by Kersey Graves&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've tried to find more information on this Thulis (or Zulis or Zhule), but was not successful. It seems that every bit of information about him online inevitably leads back to Graves. I'm not entirely sure who &quot;Mr. Wilkinson&quot; is, but I suspect it is John Gardner Wilkinson, a renowned Egyptologist. Unfortunately, I don't have access to any of his publications. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a different part of the book, Graves gives Osiris as an alternate name for Thulis. Osiris died a violent death, was resurrected and was considered as king of the underworld. It vaguely matches the general pattern Graves is looking for, but some of the details remain a mystery (e.g. the connection to Ultima Thule).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who is Thulis of Egypt? Is it Osiris? If so, do we know which tales of Osiris provide the details Graves mentions?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19060" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5687" RevisionGUID="ebd9be1b-1221-4413-984e-61fbc8b8e1d9" CreationDate="2019-05-28T10:04:13.613" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|source-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19061" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5691" RevisionGUID="16c8a1c8-eb4a-4661-ab83-9005aabd8271" CreationDate="2019-05-28T10:21:11.467" UserId="57" Text="Kersey Graves discusses the immaculate conception of Mars: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Malcolm's &quot;History of Persia&quot; the author tells us that &quot;Zoroaster was born of an immaculate conception by a ray from the Divine Reason.&quot; The immaculate conception of Juno of Greece is thus described by the poet:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&quot;Juno touched the flower;  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Its wondrous virtues such,  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;She touched it, and grew pregnant at the touch;  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Then entered Thrace - the Propontic shore;  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;When mistress of her touch,  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;God Mars she bore.&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This case may certainly be set down as the *ne plus ultra* of etiquette with respect to sexual commerce or purity of conception. The sweet odor of an expanded flower, we are here taught, is adequate to the conception and production of a God. Here we have &quot;the immaculate conception&quot; in the superlative degree, and while much more beautiful and grand it cannot be more senseless or unreasonable than the conception by a ghost. It proves at least that the doctrine of the immaculate conception is of very ancient date. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors. by Kersey Graves&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the source of this story?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19062" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5691" RevisionGUID="16c8a1c8-eb4a-4661-ab83-9005aabd8271" CreationDate="2019-05-28T10:21:11.467" UserId="57" Text="What is the source of the story of the immaculate conception of Mars?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19063" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5691" RevisionGUID="16c8a1c8-eb4a-4661-ab83-9005aabd8271" CreationDate="2019-05-28T10:21:11.467" UserId="57" Text="|greek|roman|source-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19064" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5692" RevisionGUID="7187e51b-b7c7-4c69-b7d6-04dfb1c299a5" CreationDate="2019-05-28T13:18:30.053" UserId="2774" Text="The central problem is your source author, not the most reliable in the world (Compare him to Bob Graves). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - He is writing in 187x, that is a LONG time ago&#xD;&#xA; - His methods of investigations were questionable&#xD;&#xA; - His use of sources not better&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Demonstration with the &quot;his history is curiously illustrated in the sculptures, made seventeen hundred years B.C., of a small, retired chamber lying nearly over the western adytum of the temple.&quot; related to this so-called Thulis. The citation is taken from A second series of the manners and customs of ancient Egyptians. Here is the full citation...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Of these, the most singular are the character of **Osiris**, and the connection between truth and the creative power. [...] But the discloser of truth and goodness on Earth was Osiris, and it is remarkable that, in this character of the manifestation of the deity, he was said to be &quot;full of goodness and truth&quot;[...]At Phylae, where **Osiris** was particularly worshipped, and which was one of the places where they supposed him to have been buried, ***his mysterious history is curiously illustrated in the sculptures of a small retired chamber, lying nearby over the western adytum of the temple***&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So Wilkinson is talking about the god Osiris at Phylae (an island). Not about a Zulis, Thulys, Julius or whatever. Osiris. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One needs to go back in time in the 18xx era, mostly, authors were trying to find connections between Egyptian religion and Christianity. Akhenaten furnishes the most stupendous example. Here is Breasted: &quot;It is this aspect of Ikhnaton's mind which is especially remarkable; he is the first prophet of history [...] It is the first time in history a discerning eye has caught this universal truth&quot;. Here is Weigall's view &quot;Akhnaton evolved a monotheistic religion second only to Christianity itself in purity of tone. He was the first human being to understand rightly the meaning of divinity.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This helps you understand Wilkinson and his point of view. That man was writing when Egyptology was an emergent hobby, not a profession.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most of those &quot;Christians views&quot; from the early Egyptologist is nowadays totally dismissed. Hence your author there trying to find connections between Egyptians and Christians and misciting totally an author to prove his point. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19065" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5692" RevisionGUID="7ef5d7d0-0dd3-4a0d-ba3a-aa9f9a25e12a" CreationDate="2019-05-28T14:53:02.493" UserId="57" Comment="added 33 characters in body" Text="The central problem is your source author, not the most reliable in the world (compare him to Robert Graves). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - He is writing in 187x, that is a LONG time ago&#xD;&#xA; - His methods of investigations were questionable&#xD;&#xA; - His use of sources is problematic&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Demonstration with the &quot;his history is curiously illustrated in the sculptures, made seventeen hundred years B.C., of a small, retired chamber lying nearly over the western adytum of the temple.&quot; related to this so-called Thulis. The citation is taken from Wilkinson's *A Second Series of the Manners and Customs of the Ancient Egyptians*. Here is the full citation: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Of these, the most singular are the character of **Osiris**, and the connection between truth and the creative power. [...] But the discloser of truth and goodness on Earth was Osiris, and it is remarkable that, in this character of the manifestation of the deity, he was said to be &quot;full of goodness and truth&quot; [...] At Phylae, where **Osiris** was particularly worshipped, and which was one of the places where they supposed him to have been buried, ***his mysterious history is curiously illustrated in the sculptures of a small retired chamber, lying nearby over the western adytum of the temple***.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So Wilkinson is talking about the god Osiris at Phylae (an island). Not about a Zulis, Thulys, Julius or whatever. Osiris. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One needs to go back in time in the 18xx era, mostly, authors were trying to find connections between Egyptian religion and Christianity. Akhenaten furnishes the most stupendous example. Here is Breasted: &quot;It is this aspect of Ikhnaton's mind which is especially remarkable; he is the first prophet of history [...] It is the first time in history a discerning eye has caught this universal truth&quot;. Here is Weigall's view &quot;Akhnaton evolved a monotheistic religion second only to Christianity itself in purity of tone. He was the first human being to understand rightly the meaning of divinity.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This helps you understand Wilkinson and his point of view. That man was writing when Egyptology was an emergent hobby, not a profession.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most of those &quot;Christians views&quot; from the early Egyptologist are nowadays totally dismissed. Hence your author there trying to find connections between Egyptians and Christians and totally misquoting another author to prove his point. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19066" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5691" RevisionGUID="69df2c29-01d3-4340-ab8a-6bf9bf552a78" CreationDate="2019-05-28T14:56:48.833" UserId="57" Comment="that didn't look nice on mobile" Text="Kersey Graves discusses the immaculate conception of Mars: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Malcolm's &quot;History of Persia&quot; the author tells us that &quot;Zoroaster was born of an immaculate conception by a ray from the Divine Reason.&quot; The immaculate conception of Juno of Greece is thus described by the poet:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Juno touched the flower;  &#xD;&#xA;Its wondrous virtues such,  &#xD;&#xA;She touched it, and grew pregnant at the touch;  &#xD;&#xA;Then entered Thrace - the Propontic shore;  &#xD;&#xA;When mistress of her touch,  &#xD;&#xA;God Mars she bore.&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This case may certainly be set down as the *ne plus ultra* of etiquette with respect to sexual commerce or purity of conception. The sweet odor of an expanded flower, we are here taught, is adequate to the conception and production of a God. Here we have &quot;the immaculate conception&quot; in the superlative degree, and while much more beautiful and grand it cannot be more senseless or unreasonable than the conception by a ghost. It proves at least that the doctrine of the immaculate conception is of very ancient date. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors. by Kersey Graves&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the source of this story?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19067" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5693" RevisionGUID="167317d7-61be-4853-8e57-0a21b6997331" CreationDate="2019-05-28T15:28:54.350" UserId="6082" Text="They represent the Tetramorph, the 4 classical elements in the West. More info:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetramorph" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19068" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5693" RevisionGUID="a9cac527-2453-427a-a06e-7d96f0a03e71" CreationDate="2019-05-28T16:20:25.180" UserId="6082" Comment="added 778 characters in body" Text="They represent the Tetramorph, the 4 classical elements in the West. More info:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;A tetramorph is a symbolic arrangement of four differing elements, or the combination of four disparate elements in one unit. The term is derived from the Greek tetra, meaning four, and morph, shape.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In Christian art, the tetramorph is the union of the symbols of the Four Evangelists, derived from the four living creatures in the Book of Ezekiel, into a single figure or, more commonly, a group of four figures. Each of the four Evangelists is associated with one of the living creatures, usually shown with wings. The most common association, but not the original or only, is: Matthew the man, Mark the lion, Luke the ox, and John the eagle. In Christian art and iconography, Evangelist portraits are often accompanied by tetramorphs, or the symbols alone used to represent them. Evangelist portraits that depict them in their human forms are often accompanied by their symbolic creatures, and Christ in Majesty is often shown surrounded by the four symbols.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetramorph" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19069" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5694" RevisionGUID="90106185-a0eb-478f-944f-aa451d409f87" CreationDate="2019-05-28T19:39:47.983" UserId="6084" Text="Diana Wynne Jones's autobiography contains an interesting report on what Tolkien lectured about at university:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He started with the simplest possible story: a man (prince or woodcutter) going on a journey. He then gave the journey an aim, and we found that the simple picaresque plot had developed into a quest story. I am not quite sure what happened then, but I know that by the end he was discussing the peculiar adaptation of the quest story which Chaucer made in his “Pardoner’s Tale.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am wondering if anyone can recommend particular references on the structure of [quest] plots and how different authors such as Chaucer deliberately mutated or subverted them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm familiar already with works like Propp's morphology of the folktale, which is close but tends to discuss more of the commonalities and less on contrast or variation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks for your help!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19070" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5694" RevisionGUID="90106185-a0eb-478f-944f-aa451d409f87" CreationDate="2019-05-28T19:39:47.983" UserId="6084" Text="References on Tolkien's plots" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19071" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5694" RevisionGUID="90106185-a0eb-478f-944f-aa451d409f87" CreationDate="2019-05-28T19:39:47.983" UserId="6084" Text="|reference-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19072" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5695" RevisionGUID="f9f1ccdb-f991-4a9c-b969-2698fc1bc18a" CreationDate="2019-05-28T20:34:11.147" UserId="2682" Text="The quote within the quote in your Question is **Book 5**, Lines 255-258 **of Ovid's *Fasti***. The full story runs from **Line 229 through Line 260** of the same book, making up a medium-sized paragraph. (James George Frazer's translation thereof, which might make for less obscure reading than the one in the Kersey Graves book, can be found on [The Theoi Project](https://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidFasti5.html). A.S. Kline's translation preserves the verse format of the original but I also found it to be quite readable, available on [Poetry in Translation](https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/OvidFastiBkFive.php#anchor_Toc69367920).)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In it, the *Fasti*'s narrator is having a conversation with Flora, the goddess of flowers, who is explaining to him different ways in which she is important to the land's fertility and thus the food and water sources of all living things. In the paragraph in question she points out how she is the reason that Mars, an important agricultural deity, was born in the first place.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The goddess Juno was deeply chagrined that her husband Jupiter was able to &quot;give birth&quot; to Minerva apparently without the usual means of needing female intervention for the feat. While on her way to complain about this to Oceanus, she made a pit-stop at Flora's house and opened up to the flower-deity about her grievance, revealing also that she had decided not to be outdone by her own spouse in the matter of childbearing. Determined to engender offspring &quot;'without contact with a man'&quot;, she would &quot;'try all the drugs in the wide world, and I will explore the seas and the depths of Tartarus.'&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Presumably because Juno was aware of Flora's deep fertility powers, she was convinced that the flower-goddess could help her with this goal. Flora was very hesitant because of the potential of incurring Jupiter's wrath but Juno persuaded her by swearing that Flora would never be implicated in this action.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At this, Flora told Juno of a certain one-of-a-kind flower in her garden &quot;'that was sent [to] me from the fields of Olenus.'&quot; Flora had been given testing instructions regarding the flower by &quot;'He who gave it me'&quot;. Tantalisingly, she never says who &quot;He&quot; was, but whoever it was told her to touch a barren heifer with the flower and it would become a mother, and it worked as predicted.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apparently in a ritualistic gesture, Flora now plucked the flower using her thumb, touched Juno's bosom with, and the queen of the gods instantly became pregnant. Juno then journeyed to Thrace where she gave birth to Mars somewhere near &quot;'the shores of the Propontis.'&quot; The story ends with Mars, who evidently knows of Flora's involvement in his conception, gratefully granting her a place of honour in the Roman pantheon once the city of Rome is founded by his son Romulus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia's summary on this is that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ovid is the only source for the story. He may be presenting a literary&#xD;&#xA;&gt; myth of his own invention, or an otherwise unknown archaic Italic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tradition; either way, in choosing to include the story, he emphasizes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that Mars was connected to plant life and was not alienated from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; female nurture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After citing this portion of the *Fasti* on The Theoi Project, Aaron Atsma makes a note that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The fact that Ovid mentions the Greek city of Olenos [*Olenus*] in this myth,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; strongly suggests it was derived it from a Greek source.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whatever the validity of that position is, Mars having been born in Thrace is supposed to explain the warlike characters of the tribes of that region, in which country Statius' *Thebaid* says the god also lived. *Thebaid* 4 suggests either that Mars was born during winter at a place called Odrysus in Thrace, or at least that he was there, crawling in the snow, at some point during his babyhood.         " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19073" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5695" RevisionGUID="ca3faadf-dbed-4611-a3f7-495fd2960066" CreationDate="2019-05-28T21:48:28.797" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="The quote within the quote in your Question is **Book 5**, Lines 255-258 **of Ovid's *Fasti***. The full story runs from **Line 229 through Line 260** of the same book, making up a medium-sized paragraph. (James George Frazer's translation thereof, which might make for less obscure reading than the one in the Kersey Graves book, can be found on [The Theoi Project](https://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidFasti5.html). A.S. Kline's translation preserves the verse format of the original but I also found it to be quite readable, available on [Poetry in Translation](https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/OvidFastiBkFive.php#anchor_Toc69367920).)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In it, the *Fasti*'s narrator is having a conversation with Flora, the goddess of flowers, who is explaining to him different ways in which she is important to the land's fertility and thus the food and water sources of all living things. In the paragraph in question she points out how she is the reason that Mars, an important agricultural deity, was born in the first place.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The goddess Juno was deeply chagrined that her husband Jupiter was able to &quot;give birth&quot; to Minerva apparently without the usual means of needing female intervention for the feat. While on her way to complain about this to Oceanus, she made a pit-stop at Flora's house and opened up to the flower-deity about her grievance, revealing also that she had decided not to be outdone by her own spouse in the matter of childbearing. Determined to engender offspring &quot;'without contact with a man'&quot;, she would &quot;'try all the drugs in the wide world, and I will explore the seas and the depths of Tartarus.'&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Presumably because Juno was aware of Flora's deep fertility powers, she was convinced that the flower-goddess could help her with this goal. Flora was very hesitant because of the potential of incurring Jupiter's wrath but Juno persuaded her by swearing that Flora would never be implicated in this action.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At this, Flora told Juno of a certain one-of-a-kind flower in her garden &quot;'that was sent [to] me from the fields of Olenus.'&quot; Flora had been given testing instructions regarding the flower by &quot;'He who gave it me'&quot;. Tantalisingly, she never says who &quot;He&quot; was, but whoever it was told her to touch a barren heifer with the flower and it would become a mother, and it worked as predicted.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apparently in a ritualistic gesture, Flora now plucked the flower using her thumb, touched Juno's bosom with, and the queen of the gods instantly became pregnant. Juno then journeyed to Thrace where she gave birth to Mars somewhere near &quot;'the shores of the Propontis.'&quot; The story ends with Mars, who evidently knows of Flora's involvement in his conception, gratefully granting her a place of honour in the Roman pantheon once the city of Rome is founded by his son Romulus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia's summary on this is that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ovid is the only source for the story. He may be presenting a literary&#xD;&#xA;&gt; myth of his own invention, or an otherwise unknown archaic Italic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tradition; either way, in choosing to include the story, he emphasizes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that Mars was connected to plant life and was not alienated from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; female nurture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After citing this portion of the *Fasti* on The Theoi Project, Aaron Atsma makes a note that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The fact that Ovid mentions the Greek city of Olenos [*Olenus*] in this myth,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; strongly suggests it was derived it from a Greek source.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whatever the validity of that position is, Mars having been born in Thrace is supposed to explain the warlike character of the tribes of that region, in which country Statius' *Thebaid* says the god also lived. *Thebaid* 4 suggests either that Mars was born during winter at a place called Odrysus in Thrace, or at least that he was there, crawling in the snow, at some point during his babyhood.         " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19075" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5696" RevisionGUID="3d8e0ca4-c30a-4fbd-9bba-171a4a2c0273" CreationDate="2019-05-29T08:37:22.290" UserId="6021" Text="If we ignore the practical safety issues, why is it considered unlucky to walk under a ladder?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19076" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5696" RevisionGUID="3d8e0ca4-c30a-4fbd-9bba-171a4a2c0273" CreationDate="2019-05-29T08:37:22.290" UserId="6021" Text="Why is it unlucky to walk under a ladder?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19077" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5696" RevisionGUID="3d8e0ca4-c30a-4fbd-9bba-171a4a2c0273" CreationDate="2019-05-29T08:37:22.290" UserId="6021" Text="|superstition|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19081" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5697" RevisionGUID="ea50475b-9c19-4b0c-a838-ea3016e2ee62" CreationDate="2019-05-29T09:19:06.743" UserId="57" Text="Richard Webster addresses this well-known superstition in *The Encyclopedia of Superstitions* and gives three theories for its origin:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Walking under a ladder is believed to cause bad luck. No one really knows why, but at least three theories have been proposed. The most likely theory is that a ladder forms a triangle when placed against a wall. The triangle symbolizes the Holy Trinity. Consequently, when you walk through it, you effectively insult the Trinity and attract the devil. The second theory concerns the use of a ladder in hangings. The ladder would be propped against a beam to allow the person about to be hanged to climb high enough to reach the rope. A third theory dates back to ancient Egyptian times, when people believed you might see a god walking up or down the ladder while you walked under it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Webster, R. (2008). The encyclopedia of superstitions. Woodbury, Minn.: Llewellyn Publications.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19082" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5697" RevisionGUID="10e8e877-2014-4d9b-b550-265949264d9c" CreationDate="2019-05-29T09:38:43.417" UserId="57" Comment="added 493 characters in body" Text="Richard Webster addresses this well-known superstition in *The Encyclopedia of Superstitions* and gives three theories for its origin:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Walking under a ladder is believed to cause bad luck. No one really knows why, but at least three theories have been proposed. The most likely theory is that a ladder forms a triangle when placed against a wall. The triangle symbolizes the Holy Trinity. Consequently, when you walk through it, you effectively insult the Trinity and attract the devil. The second theory concerns the use of a ladder in hangings. The ladder would be propped against a beam to allow the person about to be hanged to climb high enough to reach the rope. A third theory dates back to ancient Egyptian times, when people believed you might see a god walking up or down the ladder while you walked under it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Webster, R. (2008). The encyclopedia of superstitions. Woodbury, Minn.: Llewellyn Publications.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A version of the hangings theory can also be found in the much older *Encyclopaedia of Superstitions, Folklore and the Occult Sciences*: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The reason why it is believed to be unlucky to pass under a ladder, is because, in old times, convicts who were condemned to death were made to pass under a ladder; while those who were not condemned to death passed outside.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Daniels, C. (1903). Encyclopaedia of superstitions, folklore, and the occult sciences of the world.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19083" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5697" RevisionGUID="85e9fe4a-e64e-4c53-9f39-d8bc016f85db" CreationDate="2019-05-29T09:46:16.370" UserId="57" Comment="added 13 characters in body" Text="Richard Webster addresses this well-known superstition in *The Encyclopedia of Superstitions* and gives three theories for its origin:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Walking under a ladder is believed to cause bad luck. No one really knows why, but at least three theories have been proposed. The most likely theory is that a ladder forms a triangle when placed against a wall. The triangle symbolizes the Holy Trinity. Consequently, when you walk through it, you effectively insult the Trinity and attract the devil. The second theory concerns the use of a ladder in hangings. The ladder would be propped against a beam to allow the person about to be hanged to climb high enough to reach the rope. A third theory dates back to ancient Egyptian times, when people believed you might see a god walking up or down the ladder while you walked under it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Webster, R. (2008). The encyclopedia of superstitions. Woodbury, Minn.: Llewellyn Publications.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A version of the hangings theory can also be found in the much older *Encyclopaedia of Superstitions, Folklore and the Occult Sciences of the World*: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The reason why it is believed to be unlucky to pass under a ladder, is because, in old times, convicts who were condemned to death were made to pass under a ladder; while those who were not condemned to death passed outside.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Daniels, C. (1903). Encyclopaedia of superstitions, folklore, and the occult sciences of the world.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19084" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5698" RevisionGUID="dbcf63b8-417a-4ab9-bc5a-1504bce0fb34" CreationDate="2019-05-29T14:08:57.323" UserId="6085" Text="I was wondering about the [physics of color](https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/483106/database-of-color-emissions), and now am interested in finding out if there are any _standard_ resources on the meanings or appearances of colors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, color [associations](https://www.ancient.eu/article/999/color-in-ancient-egypt/) in mythology or folklore of the rainbow.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know in the zodiac there are colors mapped to the specific stones, that would be an example like I am looking for. What google brings about however is a bunch of stuff on the psychology of color saying 'red is for danger or vibrance' etc., but there is no reference on where they are getting these features/observations from. I would like to find religious/mythological/folkloric references mentioning specific colors, like how earth/wind/fire/water are a thing of 4, or the 5 colors in China, that type of thing." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19085" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5698" RevisionGUID="dbcf63b8-417a-4ab9-bc5a-1504bce0fb34" CreationDate="2019-05-29T14:08:57.323" UserId="6085" Text="Standard references on meanings of colors" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19086" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5698" RevisionGUID="dbcf63b8-417a-4ab9-bc5a-1504bce0fb34" CreationDate="2019-05-29T14:08:57.323" UserId="6085" Text="|interpretation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19087" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5692" RevisionGUID="b5543002-4f8d-4b15-bc2c-9a16d873c3f2" CreationDate="2019-05-29T15:40:46.193" UserId="2774" Comment="added a part about thulis in the Souda" Text="The central problem is your source author, not the most reliable in the world (compare him to Robert Graves). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - He is writing in 187x, that is a LONG time ago&#xD;&#xA; - His methods of investigations were questionable&#xD;&#xA; - His use of sources is problematic&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Checking the source&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Demonstration with the &quot;his history is curiously illustrated in the sculptures, made seventeen hundred years B.C., of a small, retired chamber lying nearly over the western adytum of the temple.&quot; related to this so-called Thulis. The citation is taken from Wilkinson's *A Second Series of the Manners and Customs of the Ancient Egyptians*. Here is the full citation: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Of these, the most singular are the character of **Osiris**, and the connection between truth and the creative power. [...] But the discloser of truth and goodness on Earth was Osiris, and it is remarkable that, in this character of the manifestation of the deity, he was said to be &quot;full of goodness and truth&quot; [...] At Phylae, where **Osiris** was particularly worshipped, and which was one of the places where they supposed him to have been buried, ***his mysterious history is curiously illustrated in the sculptures of a small retired chamber, lying nearby over the western adytum of the temple***.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So Wilkinson is talking about the god Osiris at Phylae (an island). Not about a Zulis, Thulys, Julius or whatever. Osiris. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One needs to go back in time in the 18xx era, mostly, authors were trying to find connections between Egyptian religion and Christianity. Akhenaten furnishes the most stupendous example. Here is Breasted: &quot;It is this aspect of Ikhnaton's mind which is especially remarkable; he is the first prophet of history [...] It is the first time in history a discerning eye has caught this universal truth&quot;. Here is Weigall's view &quot;Akhnaton evolved a monotheistic religion second only to Christianity itself in purity of tone. He was the first human being to understand rightly the meaning of divinity.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This helps you understand Wilkinson and his point of view. That man was writing when Egyptology was an emergent hobby, not a profession.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most of those &quot;Christians views&quot; from the early Egyptologist are nowadays totally dismissed. Hence your author there trying to find connections between Egyptians and Christians and totally misquoting another author to prove his point. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On Thulis&#xD;&#xA;--&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, Grave does not provide his own source for Thulis, on the contrary, he misquotes Wilkinson and thus speaks about Osiris. Still, this Thulis is not totally unknown, here is his legend as found in the Byzantine [Souda][1]:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Thulis reigned over all the Egypt and his empire was up to the ocean. He gave his name to Thule, one of the island found there. Filled with his success, he went to the oracle of Serapis, and after performing a sacrifice, he talked to him: &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;- Tell us, Master of the fire, the truth, the happy, who is driving the course of the stars, tell us who was as powerful as me before and who will be after.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;The oracle responded: First God, then the Verb, and the Spirit with them. All three are of the same nature and make one whose power is eternal: Go out mortal, whose life is uncertain.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Going out of the temple, he was put to death by his men, in the country of &quot;Afres&quot;, or Africans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[[*nota: this text is translated by me from the original Byzantine Greek... in no way do I pretend to be an expert in Greek, and certainly not in Byzantine Greek! I do not know any translations*]]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice the Souda is written in Byzantine Greek around 1100 and fairly obviously are quite smelly as Egyptian tales. One should take those stories as Byzantine Christians stories. One clear element is the use of Serapis, the main Egyptian god of the Ptolemaic era, thus a &quot;Greek god&quot;. Notice finally that in Hebrew Thuli means suspended or crucified.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is difficult at the end of the day to find where Graves got his ideas. The first part works with the Souda, when the second works with Wilkinson. But there is no reason to put them together. One could not exclude that genuine knowledge of Egypt/Christian view from the era 18xx could lead to understanding better Graves'way of thinking.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nota: In old Egypt, there is a Pharaoh Twosret whose name in Greek is [Thuoris][2], which is the closest from Thulis. Considering she is a she, I doubt she is model.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suda&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twosret" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19088" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5699" RevisionGUID="171ca1b6-e56e-4674-856b-ddd68e43bd68" CreationDate="2019-05-29T18:09:22.653" UserId="6086" Text="Have powerful heroes ever shown deep fear or fled?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am aware that foes and enemies of heroes at times flee them but I cannot think of any incidents where some powerful figure of martial might in any mythological or folklore tale is outmatched and runs away or shows deep fear.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Have such things happened in any stories? figures of great might who when called to fight shook in their boots and ran away?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19089" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5699" RevisionGUID="171ca1b6-e56e-4674-856b-ddd68e43bd68" CreationDate="2019-05-29T18:09:22.653" UserId="6086" Text="Have powerful mythological heroes ever run away or been deeply afraid?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19090" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5699" RevisionGUID="171ca1b6-e56e-4674-856b-ddd68e43bd68" CreationDate="2019-05-29T18:09:22.653" UserId="6086" Text="|demi-gods|heroism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19091" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3230" RevisionGUID="00d1e77f-150f-46ec-9feb-c59b1ae4feb5" CreationDate="2019-05-29T19:07:07.683" UserId="2892" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="This falls under the the general field of [Hermeneutics][1].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hermeneutics is the theory and methodology of interpretation, especially the interpretation of biblical texts, wisdom literature, and philosophical texts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This can be applied to any text, and even into non-textual forms (visual media, such as movies.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Essentially, it's the idea that content can have different meanings over time, depending on the reader's frame of reference (context).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It has been proposed that longevity of a text may be a function of the capacity of the text for renewed interpretation, keeping such texts relevant as conditions and understanding of the world change. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;Just for Fun: It's worth checking out Jorge Luis Borges' *[Pierre Menard, Author of the Quixote][2]*. [[PDF][3]]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutics&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Menard,_Author_of_the_Quixote&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://hispanlit.qwriting.qc.cuny.edu/files/2011/06/Borges-Pierre-Menard.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19092" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5700" RevisionGUID="4a8747d0-f6d0-47c8-a821-a6a71ea79261" CreationDate="2019-05-29T19:19:58.447" UserId="2892" Text="This is just an initial list--I'll have to return when I have more time to provide references to source material, and will likely be expanding the list.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Enkidu frozen with fear in the Cedar forest [Epic of Gilgamesh]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Agamemnon at Aulis is terrified that if he doesn't sacrifice his daughter, the Achaeans will murder him.  (Achilles might be considered afraid as well, at first offering to protect Iphigenia, then stating that there's nothing he can do against an army.)  [Iphigenia at Aulis]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Orestes is famously driven by the fearsome Furies after murdering his mother. [Libation Bearers, Eumenidies] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*It's been a while since my last read of the Odyssey, but I seem to recall Odysseus terrified at various points during his travails.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If Gods are included:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Loki fleeing the gods before he is bound." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19093" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5699" RevisionGUID="89d8484f-9e05-4300-8393-65eb6ba2c3b9" CreationDate="2019-05-29T19:38:41.583" UserId="6086" Comment="added 138 characters in body" Text="Have powerful heroes ever shown deep fear or fled?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am aware that foes and enemies of heroes at times flee them but I cannot think of any incidents where some powerful figure of martial might in any mythological or folklore tale is outmatched and runs away or shows deep fear.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Have such things happened in any stories? figures of great might who when called to fight shook in their boots and ran away?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;God's are fine as well, so long as they are at least partially heroes, not beings of evil to be vanquished by the good gods or heroes." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19094" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5695" RevisionGUID="af8f58b2-4812-4f29-8faa-390fd5651184" CreationDate="2019-05-29T19:57:24.877" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="The quote within the quote in your Question is **Book 5**, Lines 255-258 **of Ovid's *Fasti***. The full story runs from **Line 229 through Line 260** of the same book, making up a medium-sized paragraph. (James George Frazer's translation thereof, which might make for less obscure reading than the one in the Kersey Graves book, can be found on [The Theoi Project](https://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidFasti5.html). A.S. Kline's translation preserves the verse format of the original but I also found it to be quite readable, available on [Poetry in Translation](https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/OvidFastiBkFive.php#anchor_Toc69367920).)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In it, the *Fasti*'s narrator is having a conversation with Flora, the goddess of flowers, who is explaining to him different ways in which she is important to the land's fertility and thus the food and water sources of all living things. In the paragraph in question she points out how she is the reason that Mars, an important agricultural deity, was born in the first place.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The goddess Juno was deeply chagrined that her husband Jupiter was able to &quot;give birth&quot; to Minerva apparently without the usual means of needing female intervention for the feat. While on her way to complain about this to Oceanus, she made a pit-stop at Flora's house and opened up to the flower-deity about her grievance, revealing also that she had decided not to be outdone by her own spouse in the matter of childbearing. Determined to engender offspring &quot;'without contact with a man'&quot;, she would &quot;'try all the drugs in the wide world, and I will explore the seas and the depths of Tartarus.'&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Presumably because Juno was aware of Flora's deep fertility powers, she was convinced that the flower-goddess could help her with this goal. Flora was very hesitant because of the potential of incurring Jupiter's wrath but Juno persuaded her by swearing that Flora would never be implicated in this action.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At this, Flora told Juno of a certain one-of-a-kind flower in her garden &quot;'that was sent [to] me from the fields of Olenus.'&quot; Flora had been given testing instructions regarding the flower by &quot;'He who gave it me'&quot;. Tantalisingly, she never says who &quot;He&quot; was, but whoever it was told her to touch a barren heifer with the flower and it would become a mother, and it worked as predicted.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apparently in a ritualistic gesture, Flora now plucked the flower using her thumb, touched Juno's bosom with it, and the queen of the gods instantly became pregnant. Juno then journeyed to Thrace where she gave birth to Mars somewhere near &quot;'the shores of the Propontis.'&quot; The story ends with Mars, who evidently knows of Flora's involvement in his conception, gratefully granting her a place of honour in the Roman pantheon once the city of Rome is founded by his son Romulus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia's summary on this is that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ovid is the only source for the story. He may be presenting a literary&#xD;&#xA;&gt; myth of his own invention, or an otherwise unknown archaic Italic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tradition; either way, in choosing to include the story, he emphasizes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that Mars was connected to plant life and was not alienated from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; female nurture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After citing this portion of the *Fasti* on The Theoi Project, Aaron Atsma makes a note that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The fact that Ovid mentions the Greek city of Olenos [*Olenus*] in this myth,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; strongly suggests it was derived it from a Greek source.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whatever the validity of that position is, Mars having been born in Thrace is supposed to explain the warlike character of the tribes of that region, in which country Statius' *Thebaid* says the god also lived. *Thebaid* 4 suggests either that Mars was born during winter at a place called Odrysus in Thrace, or at least that he was there, crawling in the snow, at some point during his babyhood.         " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19095" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5701" RevisionGUID="523bec19-64db-4f27-82c4-4c0e4cceb108" CreationDate="2019-05-29T20:46:16.127" UserId="2682" Text="The Man&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He is supposed to be one of the earliest kings of Egypt; he also supposedly conquered the entire world, says the story, &quot;all the way to Okeanos [Oceanus].&quot; Most English translations of his name, starting sometime in the 20th century onwards, seem to favour spelling it with a transliteration closer to Θοῦλις than &quot;Thulis&quot; is; so it is much easier to find information on him (in English)—i.e., going *beyond* Kersey Graves—if one were to look up ***Thoulis***.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;His story comes from a work penned in the 500s AD, entitled the *Khronographia*, &quot;Chronicle,&quot; by a writer from Antioch named John Malalas (c. 491 – 578). Thoulis's story is part of John's history of the world, which follows the narrative supplied by the Book of Genesis in the Bible, filling in details along the way, but after the Flood it goes into the first kings of some of the world's most famous empires. When Thoulis shows up on the scene near the beginning of *Khronographia* Book 2, if my count is correct, seven (or at least six) kings have reigned over Egypt. Thoulis is thus the eighth (or seventh).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Section 3 of Book 2:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; After the death of Helios son of Hephaistos [Hephaestus], Sosis ruled&#xD;&#xA;&gt; over the Egyptians. After him reigned Osiris; Horos [Horus] reigned&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after Osiris, and Thoulis ruled after Horos. Using a large force, this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; last one conquered the whole earth, as far as Okeanos. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And as he was returning, he came to the land of Aphrika [Africa] and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; arrogantly approached an oracle. Having made a sacrifice, he beseeched&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the oracle in these words: “Tell me, Pyristhenes [Mighty with Fire],&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apseudes [Un-false {i.e. Truthful} One], Makar [Blessed One], you who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bend the aetherial course: Who, prior to my reign, had the power to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; subject all to him? And who shall have the power to do so after me?” &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The oracle responded: “First: God, and then the Word, and with them&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Spirit. All things were generated together, and they go toward the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One, whose power is aeonian. Make haste to depart from here, mortal,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and complete your worthless life.” And as soon as he left the oracle&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he fell victim to a plot by his companions and was slain in Aphrika.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Manetho prepared a record of these ancient and primaeval kingdoms of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Egyptians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Place&#xD;&#xA;---------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thoulē (Θούλη), Latinised as Thūlē, is an island which, from as early as the 300s BC, Greek and Roman writers described as being at the extreme edge of the world as far as they knew it, somewhere in northern Europe. Regarding it, Wikipedia says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In classical and medieval literature, ***ultima Thule*** (Latin&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;farthermost Thule&quot;) acquired a metaphorical meaning of any distant&#xD;&#xA;&gt; place located beyond the &quot;borders of the known world&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; By the Late Middle Ages and early modern period, the Greco-Roman Thule&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was often identified with the real Iceland or Greenland. Sometimes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Ultima Thule* was a Latin name for Greenland, when Thule was used for Iceland. By the late 19th century, however, *Thule* was frequently&#xD;&#xA;&gt; identified with Norway.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the footnotes to his translation of the *Khronographia*, Jason Colavito says that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The *Suda* (s.v. Thoulis) gives the same story but adds that the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; oracle belonged to Serapis and that the island of Thule was named for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Presumably Thoulis gives his name to this remotest of locations in order to mark the extent of his dominion, although this etymology for the island seems to be unique to the *Souda* [*Suda*], an encyclopaedia compiled some three centuries after Malalas' time. Most ancient and mediaeval writers who mention Thoule, if they discuss the origin of its name, do not seem to know about or be bothered with Thoulis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Source&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Benjamin Garstad, in his article &quot;The account of Thoulis, king of Egypt, in the *Chronographia* of John Malalas&quot; (in Vol. 107, Issue 1 of the *Byzantinische Zeitschrift* [2014]), tells us (in the Abstract, on p. 51) that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Thoulis first appears in the sixth-century chronicle of John Malalas.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It has been suggested that his name is a corruption of the material&#xD;&#xA;&gt; found in the traditional Egyptian king-lists, but it seems more likely&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that he and the narrative associated with him are a fiction of more&#xD;&#xA;&gt; recent invention. Thoulis is modeled on Sesostris, Osiris, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Alexander the Great and the narrative of his exploits alludes to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stories of these figures. The focus of this narrative is an oracle&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which deflates the king’s arrogance and obliquely prophesies the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; doctrine of the Trinity. This oracle is consistent with the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; exploitation of ostensibly genuine oracles in the pagan-Christian&#xD;&#xA;&gt; polemics of the fourth century. Indeed, the account of Thoulis as a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whole seems to have been drafted to advance the Christian position in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this debate, apparently by one Bouttios in the late fourth century.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*[Emphasis mine]*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He goes on to say (on pp. 51-52) that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In spite of the grandiose claims made for him, that he was king of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Egypt and conqueror of the world, **he first appears in the sixth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; century chronicle of John Malalas and thereafter in works ultimately&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dependent on Malalas.**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*[Emphasis mine]*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Garstad then footnotes these works as: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;the &quot;*Chronicon Paschale* (ed. L. Dindorf. Bonn 1832, I 83-84)&quot;&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;the aforementioned *Souda* entry&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;H. Erbse, Fragmente griechischer Theosophien/ Theosophorum Graecorum&#xD;&#xA;   Fragmenta (&amp; Syriac translations of parts of this)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;George Cedrenus, Compendium Historiarum&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Fragmenta Historicum Graecorum, associated with John of&#xD;&#xA;   Antioch&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The article continues (p. 52), saying that Thoulis&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; seems to be the central figure of a fiction which made a late entry into&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the legendary material on Egypt, and to have been given such eminence&#xD;&#xA;&gt; chiefly in order to make him an apt recipient for a humiliating oracle&#xD;&#xA;&gt; abasing the mightiest of human rulers and extolling the Trinity...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Specifically Thoulis appears to have been invented by one of Malalas'&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sources, Bouttios, in the later fourth century, but accepted and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; presented as perfectly historical by Malalas himself some two&#xD;&#xA;&gt; centuries later.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Based on the names which appear in the traditional ancient list of Egypt's kings, Jason Colavito thinks that Thoulis is &quot;A corruption of Typhonis, or Typhon, the Greek name for Set.&quot; For a few different reasons, including some previously quoted here, Garstad would disagree with that position, saying that Thoulis was probably invented out of whole cloth, with a name that would sound and look Egyptian to speakers and readers of Greek. In support of this argument he gives an example from Plato, who in his *Phaedrus*, has Socrates talk about a pair of Egyptian gods called Theuth and Thamus, who are a spontaneous invention of Plato for the occasion (unless &quot;Theuth&quot; is supposed to = Thoth). The initial letter theta (Θ) in the characters' names, just as in &quot;Thoulis,&quot; is here supposed to be &quot;somehow characteristic of Egyptian nomenclature.&quot;    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his article (p. 57), says Garstad:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The name of Thoulis might even have been suggested by Manetho's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; king-lists. There are at least a couple of royal names which sound&#xD;&#xA;&gt; similar: Athothis, the second king of the first dynasty, and Thouoris,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the fifth or sixth king of the nineteenth dynasty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By the end of his argument (pp. 74-75), however, Garstad is convinced that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Thoulis... did not come into being as the result of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; corruption of the names in the Egyptian king-list. He was invented as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; an addition to the number of famous world conquerors of antiquity. He&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was modeled on some of the most prominent of those conquerors,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sesostris, Osiris, and Alexander, given their traits and made to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; undergo their experiences, because he was supposed to recall their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stories and embody the prideful conqueror who vies with God. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; success of Thoulis is noted for its own sake, but to demonstrate the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; real value of even the greatest human achievement. The significance of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the story of Thoulis lies in the humiliation of his conceit and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; insistence upon the pathetic mortality of the whole line of kings&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whose pretensions to divinity were still respected in some circles.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The unmistakably Christian terms of the oracle Thoulis receives reveal&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the tendency of the author and suggest his intent. Thoulis is a straw&#xD;&#xA;&gt; man representing pagan kings and pagan gods in the great argument&#xD;&#xA;&gt; between paganism and Christianity which marked the fourth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; century.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Describing the *Khronographia*, Jason Colavito says that its author &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;John rejects the existence of ancient kingdoms before Noah's Flood and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; therefore has relocated stories of primeval Egypt to the period after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Flood, reorganizing Manetho's list of kings to place the first&#xD;&#xA;&gt; post-diluvian monarchs before those originally ascribed to the time of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the gods. John also follows an older Christian tradition of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rationalizing pagan mythology as the deeds of human kings.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Osiris and Thoulis&#xD;&#xA;------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Neither in the *Khronographia* nor in any of the mediaeval works which come after it are Thoulis and Osiris the same entity or even identified with each other. As shown above, Thoulis succeeds Horos on the throne, who in turn had succeeded Osiris. Traditionally we know that Horos is the son of Osiris. John makes no mention of the relationship between Thoulis and his predecessors but from the flow of the narrative it looks as though we are to understand him as having begun a new dynasty, perhaps even violently ending Horos's reign.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are some parallels, however, between John's account of Thoulis on the one hand, and the story of Osiris as narrated by a more ancient Greek author, namely Diodorus Siculus, who has Osiris conquer the world with a huge army. As Garstad's article (pp. 61-62) tells us:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [B]oth Osiris and Thoulis are treacherously slain by close associates&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on their return from campaign... Osiris was killed and dismembered by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his brother Typhon. It is this detail in the story of Thoulis, that an&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Egyptian king was plotted against and killed by relatives or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; companions (ὑπὸ τῶν ἰδίων) which most clearly recalls the famous story&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Osiris. In this connection, it is not hard to find some&#xD;&#xA;&gt; significance in the precise term used of the killing of Thoulis. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; word, ἐσϕάγη, from σϕάζω, may meant simply that he was slain, but it&#xD;&#xA;&gt; can also refer to slaughtering or killing as a sacrifice. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; implications of butchery and ritual inherent in the term, especially&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in the context of an Egyptian ruler treacherously slain by his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; relations, would almost unavoidably recall the murder of Osiris. Its&#xD;&#xA;&gt; affinities with the story of Osiris, especially the historicized&#xD;&#xA;&gt; account found in Diodorus, no doubt offered a certain verisimilitude&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to the novel fiction of the account of Thoulis; it sounded like the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; typical tale of an Egyptian king of the distant past.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kersey Graves' supplementary &quot;Zulis&quot; spelling of this character's name is bewildering, and seems, at least to me, to be a sort of science-fiction/fantasy remix thereof, on the order of Socrates' Egyptian deities Theuth and Thamus. The only guess I've got for &quot;Zhule&quot; is that it might be the spelling of *Th[o]ule* (the *place*-name) in some European language other than English or Latin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarities, or the Lack Thereof&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While the parallels between Osiris and Jesus are indeed fascinatingly striking, we do know that in the Gospel accounts Jesus is never dismembered, some emphasis being made in pointing out that while his wounds were gruesome, none of his bones were ever broken. With Osiris, an important aspect of his story certainly is that his corpse gets chopped to pieces and then later reassembled before his resurrection. The canonical Bible is vague and controversial, even among Christians, as to whether Jesus descended into the Underworld after death or not. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At this point, however, Christ parallels Osiris in an especially inverse manner, in that Osiris does not, at least in the original Egyptian version of his story, ascend into heaven; he *de*scends, or remains, in the Underworld and it is there that he becomes the judge of the dead. Christ on the other hand, does in fact ascend into heaven and there is a distinct emphasis on his upcoming return to the mortal realm before an eschatological judgement of the dead. But most importantly for the purposes of Graves's book title, Osiris is never crucified! Quite poetically, he gets entombed alive, in a sense, and *this* is what *causes* his death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I point all that out in order to compare both Osiris and Jesus with Thoulis, and, as it happens, there is nothing connecting Thoulis with the other two that is as remarkable as the noted similarities between Osiris and Jesus, or as Graves would like there to be. John does not tell us that Thoulis is crucified in any fashion, nor is there any reason for us to necessarily understand his death in this way. If we are supposed to link him to Osiris, then we have seen that, as a matter of fact, this compels us even less to think of crucifixion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While Osiris, in the original Egyptian religion and mythology, is indeed some sort of &quot;salvific&quot; figure (&quot;messianic&quot; in the ancient Israelite sense, I think, is pushing it just a little bit), Thoulis definitely is not. He is quite obviously a cautionary tale of someone you do not want to be like. In the *Khronographia*, after his story, John moves on to other powerful rulers, who are clearly his own fictionalised renditions of well-known characters from ancient Greco-Egyptian myth and history. Thoulis simply goes the way of all flesh, as it were, no deification, resurrection or ascension or anything of the like on the horizon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And (w)here we are now&#xD;&#xA;--------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is really ironic that a Christian writer invented this king and his story in order to promote humility, together with a particularly specific Christian doctrine, and yet Thoulis/Thulis is now, seemingly, best known in new media as some kind of archaic competitor to Christianity (or as the founder of a sort of proto-Christianity). That is perhaps the greatest achievement of Mr Graves with regard to this personage. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;(By the way, notice that while Graves is definitely [mis]quoting {ahem!} John Gardner Wilkinson, he never actually gets his name right with his &quot;Mr. Wilkison&quot; references. Like with his &quot;Zulis&quot;, it almost feels as if it's there to deliberately throw you off the track.)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Further Reading**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;**Dr Benjamin Garstad's article**, which goes quite in depth,&#xD;&#xA;   discussing many more angles to the story and its potential origins, is available&#xD;&#xA;   on&#xD;&#xA;   [Academia.edu](https://www.academia.edu/28053343/_The_Account_of_Thoulis_king_of_Egypt_in_the_Chronographia_of_John_Malalas._Byzantinische_Zeitschrift_107_2014_51-76).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;**Jason Colavito's 2018 translation of the *Khronographia*** is&#xD;&#xA;   available on his webpage entitled [John Malalas on Ancient&#xD;&#xA;   Egypt](http://www.jasoncolavito.com/john-malalas-on-ancient-egypt.html),&#xD;&#xA;   with very helpful notes to further contextualise the situation in the&#xD;&#xA;   work's authorship as well as in the scenes taking place in the&#xD;&#xA;   stories which it narrates. (It's also a fairly quick read.)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;The Australian Association for Byzantine Studies: Byzantina&#xD;&#xA;   Australiensia 4 also has ***The Chronicle of John Malalas: A&#xD;&#xA;   Translation*** by Elizabeth Jeffreys, Michael Jeffreys and Roger Scott&#xD;&#xA;   with Brian Croke, Jenny Ferber, Simon Franklin, Alan James, Douglas&#xD;&#xA;   Kelly, Ann Moffatt, Ann Nixon (Melbourne 1986) on&#xD;&#xA;   [Calamēo](https://en.calameo.com/read/000675905f2f4bf509d49).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;**The *Khronographia*** is available in the Greek, with an accompanying Latin translation thereof, on [Archive.org](https://archive.org/details/ioannismalalaec00malagoog/page/n105).&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19096" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5702" RevisionGUID="9dbcfdfa-2900-47e6-abc2-b8127569364b" CreationDate="2019-05-29T21:25:30.547" UserId="57" Text="In Greek mythology, Typhoeus (also Typhon, Typhaon, Typhos) was a serpentine storm giant who attempted to overthrow Zeus. When he attacked Olympus, all the gods except Athena and Zeus disguised themselves as animals and fled to Egypt in panic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's a version of the story, as told by Antoninus Liberalis:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Typhon was the son of Ge (Gaea, Earth), a deity monstrous because of his strength, and of outlandish appearance. There grew out of him numerous heads and hands and wings, while from his thighs came huge coils of snakes. He emitted all kinds of roars and nothing could resist his might.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He felt an urge to usurp the rule of Zeus and not one of the gods could withstand him as he attacked. In panic they fled to Aigyptos (Egypt), all except Athena and Zeus, who alone were left. Typhon hunted after them, on their track. When they fled they had changed themselves in anticipation into animal forms.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollon became a hawk [i.e. the Egyptian god Horus], Hermes an ibis [the Egyptian god Thoth], Ares became a fish, the lepidotus [Egyptian Lepidotus or Onuris], Artemis a cat [Neith or Bastet], Dionysos took the shape of a goat [Osiris or Arsaphes], Herakles a fawn, Hephaistos (Hephaestus) an ox [Ptah], and Leto a shrew mouse [Wadjet]. The rest of the gods each took on what transformations they could. When Zeus struck Typhon with a thunderbolt, Typhon, aflame hid himself and quenched the blaze in the sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zeus did not desist but piled the highest mountain, Aitna (Etna), on Typon and set Hephaistos on the peak as a guard. Having set up his anvils, he works his red hot blooms on Typhon's neck.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Antoninus Liberalis, Metamorphoses 28 (trans. Celoria)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19097" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5701" RevisionGUID="3a78e402-f1e1-4e3a-a2ff-4405c5359a38" CreationDate="2019-05-29T21:32:30.847" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="The Man&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He is supposed to be one of the earliest kings of Egypt; he also supposedly conquered the entire world, says the story, &quot;all the way to Okeanos [Oceanus].&quot; Most English translations of his name, starting sometime in the 20th century onwards, seem to favour spelling it with a transliteration closer to Θοῦλις than &quot;Thulis&quot; is; so it is much easier to find information on him (in English)—i.e., going *beyond* Kersey Graves—if one were to look up ***Thoulis***.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;His story comes from a work penned in the 500s AD, entitled the *Khronographia*, &quot;Chronicle,&quot; by a writer from Antioch named John Malalas (c. 491 – 578). Thoulis's story is part of John's history of the world, which follows the narrative supplied by the Book of Genesis in the Bible, filling in details along the way, but after the Flood it goes into the first kings of some of the world's most famous empires. When Thoulis shows up on the scene near the beginning of *Khronographia* Book 2, if my count is correct, seven (or at least six) kings have reigned over Egypt. Thoulis is thus the eighth (or seventh).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Section 3 of Book 2:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; After the death of Helios son of Hephaistos [Hephaestus], Sosis ruled&#xD;&#xA;&gt; over the Egyptians. After him reigned Osiris; Horos [Horus] reigned&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after Osiris, and Thoulis ruled after Horos. Using a large force, this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; last one conquered the whole earth, as far as Okeanos. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And as he was returning, he came to the land of Aphrika [Africa] and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; arrogantly approached an oracle. Having made a sacrifice, he beseeched&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the oracle in these words: “Tell me, Pyristhenes [Mighty with Fire],&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apseudes [Un-false {i.e. Truthful} One], Makar [Blessed One], you who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bend the aetherial course: Who, prior to my reign, had the power to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; subject all to him? And who shall have the power to do so after me?” &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The oracle responded: “First: God, and then the Word, and with them&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Spirit. All things were generated together, and they go toward the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One, whose power is aeonian. Make haste to depart from here, mortal,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and complete your worthless life.” And as soon as he left the oracle&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he fell victim to a plot by his companions and was slain in Aphrika.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Manetho prepared a record of these ancient and primaeval kingdoms of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Egyptians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Place&#xD;&#xA;---------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thoulē (Θούλη), Latinised as Thūlē, is an island which, from as early as the 300s BC, Greek and Roman writers described as being at the extreme edge of the world as far as they knew it, somewhere in northern Europe. Regarding it, Wikipedia says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In classical and medieval literature, ***ultima Thule*** (Latin&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;farthermost Thule&quot;) acquired a metaphorical meaning of any distant&#xD;&#xA;&gt; place located beyond the &quot;borders of the known world&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; By the Late Middle Ages and early modern period, the Greco-Roman Thule&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was often identified with the real Iceland or Greenland. Sometimes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Ultima Thule* was a Latin name for Greenland, when Thule was used for Iceland. By the late 19th century, however, *Thule* was frequently&#xD;&#xA;&gt; identified with Norway.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the footnotes to his translation of the *Khronographia*, Jason Colavito says that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The *Suda* (s.v. Thoulis) gives the same story but adds that the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; oracle belonged to Serapis and that the island of Thule was named for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Presumably Thoulis gives his name to this remotest of locations in order to mark the extent of his dominion, although this etymology for the island seems to be unique to the *Souda* [*Suda*], an encyclopaedia compiled some three centuries after Malalas' time. Most ancient and mediaeval writers who mention Thoule, if they discuss the origin of its name, do not seem to know about or be bothered with Thoulis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Source&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Benjamin Garstad, in his article &quot;The account of Thoulis, king of Egypt, in the *Chronographia* of John Malalas&quot; (in Vol. 107, Issue 1 of the *Byzantinische Zeitschrift* [2014]), tells us (in the Abstract, on p. 51) that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Thoulis first appears in the sixth-century chronicle of John Malalas.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It has been suggested that his name is a corruption of the material&#xD;&#xA;&gt; found in the traditional Egyptian king-lists, but it seems more likely&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that he and the narrative associated with him are a fiction of more&#xD;&#xA;&gt; recent invention. Thoulis is modeled on Sesostris, Osiris, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Alexander the Great and the narrative of his exploits alludes to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stories of these figures. The focus of this narrative is an oracle&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which deflates the king’s arrogance and obliquely prophesies the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; doctrine of the Trinity. This oracle is consistent with the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; exploitation of ostensibly genuine oracles in the pagan-Christian&#xD;&#xA;&gt; polemics of the fourth century. Indeed, the account of Thoulis as a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whole seems to have been drafted to advance the Christian position in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this debate, apparently by one Bouttios in the late fourth century.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*[Emphasis mine]*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He goes on to say (on pp. 51-52) that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In spite of the grandiose claims made for him, that he was king of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Egypt and conqueror of the world, **he first appears in the sixth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; century chronicle of John Malalas and thereafter in works ultimately&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dependent on Malalas.**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*[Emphasis mine]*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Garstad then footnotes these works as: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;the &quot;*Chronicon Paschale* (ed. L. Dindorf. Bonn 1832, I 83-84)&quot;&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;the aforementioned *Souda* entry&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;H. Erbse, Fragmente griechischer Theosophien/ Theosophorum Graecorum&#xD;&#xA;   Fragmenta (&amp; Syriac translations of parts of this)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;George Cedrenus, Compendium Historiarum&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Fragmenta Historicum Graecorum, associated with John of&#xD;&#xA;   Antioch&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The article continues (p. 52), saying that Thoulis&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; seems to be the central figure of a fiction which made a late entry into&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the legendary material on Egypt, and to have been given such eminence&#xD;&#xA;&gt; chiefly in order to make him an apt recipient for a humiliating oracle&#xD;&#xA;&gt; abasing the mightiest of human rulers and extolling the Trinity...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Specifically Thoulis appears to have been invented by one of Malalas'&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sources, Bouttios, in the later fourth century, but accepted and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; presented as perfectly historical by Malalas himself some two&#xD;&#xA;&gt; centuries later.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Based on the names which appear in the traditional ancient list of Egypt's kings, Jason Colavito thinks that Thoulis is &quot;A corruption of Typhonis, or Typhon, the Greek name for Set.&quot; For a few different reasons, including some previously quoted here, Garstad would disagree with that position, saying that Thoulis was probably invented out of whole cloth, with a name that would sound and look Egyptian to speakers and readers of Greek. In support of this argument he gives an example from Plato, who in his *Phaedrus*, has Socrates talk about a pair of Egyptian gods called Theuth and Thamus, who are a spontaneous invention of Plato for the occasion (unless &quot;Theuth&quot; is supposed to = Thoth). The initial letter theta (Θ) in the characters' names, just as in &quot;Thoulis,&quot; is here supposed to be &quot;somehow characteristic of Egyptian nomenclature.&quot;    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his article (p. 57), says Garstad:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The name of Thoulis might even have been suggested by Manetho's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; king-lists. There are at least a couple of royal names which sound&#xD;&#xA;&gt; similar: Athothis, the second king of the first dynasty, and Thouoris,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the fifth or sixth king of the nineteenth dynasty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By the end of his argument (pp. 74-75), however, Garstad is convinced that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Thoulis... did not come into being as the result of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; corruption of the names in the Egyptian king-list. He was invented as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; an addition to the number of famous world conquerors of antiquity. He&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was modeled on some of the most prominent of those conquerors,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sesostris, Osiris, and Alexander, given their traits and made to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; undergo their experiences, because he was supposed to recall their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stories and embody the prideful conqueror who vies with God. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; success of Thoulis is noted not for its own sake, but to demonstrate the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; real value of even the greatest human achievement. The significance of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the story of Thoulis lies in the humiliation of his conceit and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; insistence upon the pathetic mortality of the whole line of kings&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whose pretensions to divinity were still respected in some circles.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The unmistakably Christian terms of the oracle Thoulis receives reveal&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the tendency of the author and suggest his intent. Thoulis is a straw&#xD;&#xA;&gt; man representing pagan kings and pagan gods in the great argument&#xD;&#xA;&gt; between paganism and Christianity which marked the fourth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; century.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Describing the *Khronographia*, Jason Colavito says that its author &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;John rejects the existence of ancient kingdoms before Noah's Flood and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; therefore has relocated stories of primeval Egypt to the period after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Flood, reorganizing Manetho's list of kings to place the first&#xD;&#xA;&gt; post-diluvian monarchs before those originally ascribed to the time of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the gods. John also follows an older Christian tradition of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rationalizing pagan mythology as the deeds of human kings.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Osiris and Thoulis&#xD;&#xA;------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Neither in the *Khronographia* nor in any of the mediaeval works which come after it are Thoulis and Osiris the same entity or even identified with each other. As shown above, Thoulis succeeds Horos on the throne, who in turn had succeeded Osiris. Traditionally we know that Horos is the son of Osiris. John makes no mention of the relationship between Thoulis and his predecessors but from the flow of the narrative it looks as though we are to understand him as having begun a new dynasty, perhaps even violently ending Horos's reign.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are some parallels, however, between John's account of Thoulis on the one hand, and the story of Osiris as narrated by a more ancient Greek author, namely Diodorus Siculus, who has Osiris conquer the world with a huge army. As Garstad's article (pp. 61-62) tells us:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [B]oth Osiris and Thoulis are treacherously slain by close associates&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on their return from campaign... Osiris was killed and dismembered by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his brother Typhon. It is this detail in the story of Thoulis, that an&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Egyptian king was plotted against and killed by relatives or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; companions (ὑπὸ τῶν ἰδίων) which most clearly recalls the famous story&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Osiris. In this connection, it is not hard to find some&#xD;&#xA;&gt; significance in the precise term used of the killing of Thoulis. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; word, ἐσϕάγη, from σϕάζω, may mean simply that he was slain, but it&#xD;&#xA;&gt; can also refer to slaughtering or killing as a sacrifice. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; implications of butchery and ritual inherent in the term, especially&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in the context of an Egyptian ruler treacherously slain by his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; relations, would almost unavoidably recall the murder of Osiris. Its&#xD;&#xA;&gt; affinities with the story of Osiris, especially the historicized&#xD;&#xA;&gt; account found in Diodorus, no doubt offered a certain verisimilitude&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to the novel fiction of the account of Thoulis; it sounded like the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; typical tale of an Egyptian king of the distant past.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kersey Graves' supplementary &quot;Zulis&quot; spelling of this character's name is bewildering, and seems, at least to me, to be a sort of science-fiction/fantasy remix thereof, on the order of Socrates' Egyptian deities Theuth and Thamus. The only guess I've got for &quot;Zhule&quot; is that it might be the spelling of *Th[o]ule* (the *place*-name) in some European language other than English or Latin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarities, or the Lack Thereof&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While the parallels between Osiris and Jesus are indeed fascinatingly striking, we do know that in the Gospel accounts Jesus is never dismembered, some emphasis being made in pointing out that while his wounds were gruesome, none of his bones were ever broken. With Osiris, an important aspect of his story certainly is that his corpse gets chopped to pieces and then later reassembled before his resurrection. The canonical Bible is vague and controversial, even among Christians, as to whether Jesus descended into the Underworld after death or not. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At this point, however, Christ parallels Osiris in an especially inverse manner, in that Osiris does not, at least in the original Egyptian version of his story, ascend into heaven; he *de*scends, or remains, in the Underworld and it is there that he becomes the judge of the dead. Christ on the other hand, does in fact ascend into heaven and there is a distinct emphasis on his upcoming return to the mortal realm before an eschatological judgement of the dead. But most importantly for the purposes of Graves's book title, Osiris is never crucified! Quite poetically, he gets entombed alive, in a sense, and *this* is what *causes* his death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I point all that out in order to compare both Osiris and Jesus with Thoulis, and, as it happens, there is nothing connecting Thoulis with the other two that is as remarkable as the noted similarities between Osiris and Jesus, or as Graves would like there to be. John does not tell us that Thoulis is crucified in any fashion, nor is there any reason for us to necessarily understand his death in this way. If we are supposed to link him to Osiris, then we have seen that, as a matter of fact, this compels us even less to think of crucifixion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While Osiris, in the original Egyptian religion and mythology, is indeed some sort of &quot;salvific&quot; figure (&quot;messianic&quot; in the ancient Israelite sense, I think, is pushing it just a little bit), Thoulis definitely is not. He is quite obviously a cautionary tale of someone you do not want to be like. In the *Khronographia*, after his story, John moves on to other powerful rulers, who are clearly his own fictionalised renditions of well-known characters from ancient Greco-Egyptian myth and history. Thoulis simply goes the way of all flesh, as it were, no deification, resurrection or ascension or anything of the like on the horizon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And (w)here we are now&#xD;&#xA;--------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is really ironic that a Christian writer invented this king and his story in order to promote humility, together with a particularly specific Christian doctrine, and yet Thoulis/Thulis is now, seemingly, best known in new media as some kind of archaic competitor to Christianity (or as the founder of a sort of proto-Christianity). That is perhaps the greatest achievement of Mr Graves with regard to this personage. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;(By the way, notice that while Graves is definitely [mis]quoting {ahem!} John Gardner Wilkinson, he never actually gets his name right with his &quot;Mr. Wilkison&quot; references. Like with his &quot;Zulis&quot;, it almost feels as if it's there to deliberately throw you off the track.)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Further Reading**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;**Dr Benjamin Garstad's article**, which goes quite in depth,&#xD;&#xA;   discussing many more angles to the story and its potential origins, is available&#xD;&#xA;   on&#xD;&#xA;   [Academia.edu](https://www.academia.edu/28053343/_The_Account_of_Thoulis_king_of_Egypt_in_the_Chronographia_of_John_Malalas._Byzantinische_Zeitschrift_107_2014_51-76).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;**Jason Colavito's 2018 translation of the *Khronographia*** is&#xD;&#xA;   available on his webpage entitled [John Malalas on Ancient&#xD;&#xA;   Egypt](http://www.jasoncolavito.com/john-malalas-on-ancient-egypt.html),&#xD;&#xA;   with very helpful notes to further contextualise the situation in the&#xD;&#xA;   work's authorship as well as in the scenes taking place in the&#xD;&#xA;   stories which it narrates. (It's also a fairly quick read.)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;The Australian Association for Byzantine Studies: Byzantina&#xD;&#xA;   Australiensia 4 also has ***The Chronicle of John Malalas: A&#xD;&#xA;   Translation*** by Elizabeth Jeffreys, Michael Jeffreys and Roger Scott&#xD;&#xA;   with Brian Croke, Jenny Ferber, Simon Franklin, Alan James, Douglas&#xD;&#xA;   Kelly, Ann Moffatt, Ann Nixon (Melbourne 1986) on&#xD;&#xA;   [Calamēo](https://en.calameo.com/read/000675905f2f4bf509d49).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;**The *Khronographia*** is available in the Greek, with an accompanying Latin translation thereof, on [Archive.org](https://archive.org/details/ioannismalalaec00malagoog/page/n105).&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19098" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5702" RevisionGUID="2622d829-1586-42fc-a04a-688ca301a2a5" CreationDate="2019-05-29T21:33:04.227" UserId="57" Comment="added 282 characters in body" Text="In Greek mythology, Typhoeus (also Typhon, Typhaon, Typhos) was a serpentine storm giant who attempted to overthrow Zeus. When he attacked Olympus, all the gods except Athena and Zeus disguised themselves as animals and fled to Egypt in panic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's a version of the story, as told by Antoninus Liberalis:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Typhon was the son of Ge (Gaea, Earth), a deity monstrous because of his strength, and of outlandish appearance. There grew out of him numerous heads and hands and wings, while from his thighs came huge coils of snakes. He emitted all kinds of roars and nothing could resist his might.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He felt an urge to usurp the rule of Zeus and not one of the gods could withstand him as he attacked. In panic they fled to Aigyptos (Egypt), all except Athena and Zeus, who alone were left. Typhon hunted after them, on their track. When they fled they had changed themselves in anticipation into animal forms.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollon became a hawk [i.e. the Egyptian god Horus], Hermes an ibis [the Egyptian god Thoth], Ares became a fish, the lepidotus [Egyptian Lepidotus or Onuris], Artemis a cat [Neith or Bastet], Dionysos took the shape of a goat [Osiris or Arsaphes], Herakles a fawn, Hephaistos (Hephaestus) an ox [Ptah], and Leto a shrew mouse [Wadjet]. The rest of the gods each took on what transformations they could. When Zeus struck Typhon with a thunderbolt, Typhon, aflame hid himself and quenched the blaze in the sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zeus did not desist but piled the highest mountain, Aitna (Etna), on Typon and set Hephaistos on the peak as a guard. Having set up his anvils, he works his red hot blooms on Typhon's neck.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Antoninus Liberalis, Metamorphoses 28 (trans. Celoria)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you wish to find out more, Theoi Project, an invaluable online reference, has extensive information on [Typhoeus][1]. Wikipedia's [Typhon article][2] is also quite comprehensive.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.theoi.com/Gigante/Typhoeus.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhon" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19099" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5692" RevisionGUID="7adaf2bb-56b0-4ce0-b313-391f7e6e987e" CreationDate="2019-05-29T21:39:40.477" UserId="57" Comment="added 18 characters in body" Text="The central problem is your source author, not the most reliable in the world (compare him to Robert Graves). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - He is writing in 187x, that is a LONG time ago&#xD;&#xA; - His methods of investigations were questionable&#xD;&#xA; - His use of sources is problematic&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Checking the source&#xD;&#xA;--&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Demonstration with the &quot;his history is curiously illustrated in the sculptures, made seventeen hundred years B.C., of a small, retired chamber lying nearly over the western adytum of the temple.&quot; related to this so-called Thulis. The citation is taken from Wilkinson's *A Second Series of the Manners and Customs of the Ancient Egyptians*. Here is the full citation: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Of these, the most singular are the character of **Osiris**, and the connection between truth and the creative power. [...] But the discloser of truth and goodness on Earth was Osiris, and it is remarkable that, in this character of the manifestation of the deity, he was said to be &quot;full of goodness and truth&quot; [...] At Phylae, where **Osiris** was particularly worshipped, and which was one of the places where they supposed him to have been buried, ***his mysterious history is curiously illustrated in the sculptures of a small retired chamber, lying nearby over the western adytum of the temple***.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So Wilkinson is talking about the god Osiris at Phylae (an island). Not about a Zulis, Thulys, Julius or whatever. Osiris. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One needs to go back in time in the 18xx era, mostly, authors were trying to find connections between Egyptian religion and Christianity. Akhenaten furnishes the most stupendous example. Here is Breasted: &quot;It is this aspect of Ikhnaton's mind which is especially remarkable; he is the first prophet of history [...] It is the first time in history a discerning eye has caught this universal truth&quot;. Here is Weigall's view &quot;Akhnaton evolved a monotheistic religion second only to Christianity itself in purity of tone. He was the first human being to understand rightly the meaning of divinity.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This helps you understand Wilkinson and his point of view. That man was writing when Egyptology was an emergent hobby, not a profession.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most of those &quot;Christians views&quot; from the early Egyptologist are nowadays totally dismissed. Hence your author there trying to find connections between Egyptians and Christians and totally misquoting another author to prove his point. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On Thulis&#xD;&#xA;--&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, Graves does not provide his own source for Thulis, on the contrary, he misquotes Wilkinson and thus speaks about Osiris. Still, this Thulis is not totally unknown, here is his legend as found in the Byzantine [Souda][1]:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thulis reigned over all the Egypt and his empire was up to the ocean. He gave his name to Thule, one of the island found there. Filled with his success, he went to the oracle of Serapis, and after performing a sacrifice, he talked to him:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; \- Tell us, Master of the fire, the truth, the happy, who is driving the course of the stars, tell us who was as powerful as me before and who will be after.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The oracle responded: First God, then the Verb, and the Spirit with them. All three are of the same nature and make one whose power is eternal: Go out mortal, whose life is uncertain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Going out of the temple, he was put to death by his men, in the country of &quot;Afres&quot;, or Africans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[[*note: this text is translated by me from the original Byzantine Greek... in no way do I pretend to be an expert in Greek, and certainly not in Byzantine Greek! I do not know any translations*]]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice the Souda is written in Byzantine Greek around 1100 and fairly obviously is quite smelly on Egyptian tales. One should take those stories as Byzantine Christians stories. One clear element is the use of Serapis, the main Egyptian god of the Ptolemaic era, thus a &quot;Greek god&quot;. Notice finally that in Hebrew Thuli means suspended or crucified.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is difficult at the end of the day to find where Graves got his ideas from. The first part works with the Souda, when the second works with Wilkinson. But there is no reason to put them together. One could not exclude that genuine knowledge of Egypt/Christian view from the era 18xx could lead to understanding better Graves'way of thinking.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: In old Egypt, there is a Pharaoh Twosret whose name in Greek is [Thuoris][2], which is the closest from Thulis. Considering she is a she, I doubt she is the model for Thulis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suda&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twosret" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19100" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5702" RevisionGUID="3782cb62-56d4-4911-82d4-1359af9eef4a" CreationDate="2019-05-29T22:32:05.443" UserId="57" Comment="added 841 characters in body" Text="A prime example is Hector trying to flee the Achilles in Book 22 of the *Iliad*. Here's how Homer describes the moment the mighty Hector realizes he stands no chance against the enraged Achilles:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So he pondered as he abode, and nigh to him came Achilles, the peer of Enyalius, warrior of the waving helm, brandishing over his right shoulder the Pelian ash, his terrible spear; and all round about the bronze flashed like the gleam of blazing fire or of the sun as he riseth. But trembling gat hold of Hector when he was ware of him, neither dared he any more abide where he was, but left the gates behind him, and fled in fear; and the son of Peleus rushed after him, trusting in his fleetness of foot.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Homer. The Iliad. Translated by Murray, A T. Loeb Classical Library Volumes. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1924.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In another example from Greek mythology, when the serpentine storm giant Typhoeus attacked Olympus, the gods - except Athena and Zeus - disguised themselves as animals and fled to Egypt in panic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's a version of the story, as told by Antoninus Liberalis:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Typhon was the son of Ge (Gaea, Earth), a deity monstrous because of his strength, and of outlandish appearance. There grew out of him numerous heads and hands and wings, while from his thighs came huge coils of snakes. He emitted all kinds of roars and nothing could resist his might.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He felt an urge to usurp the rule of Zeus and not one of the gods could withstand him as he attacked. In panic they fled to Aigyptos (Egypt), all except Athena and Zeus, who alone were left. Typhon hunted after them, on their track. When they fled they had changed themselves in anticipation into animal forms.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollon became a hawk [i.e. the Egyptian god Horus], Hermes an ibis [the Egyptian god Thoth], Ares became a fish, the lepidotus [Egyptian Lepidotus or Onuris], Artemis a cat [Neith or Bastet], Dionysos took the shape of a goat [Osiris or Arsaphes], Herakles a fawn, Hephaistos (Hephaestus) an ox [Ptah], and Leto a shrew mouse [Wadjet]. The rest of the gods each took on what transformations they could. When Zeus struck Typhon with a thunderbolt, Typhon, aflame hid himself and quenched the blaze in the sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zeus did not desist but piled the highest mountain, Aitna (Etna), on Typon and set Hephaistos on the peak as a guard. Having set up his anvils, he works his red hot blooms on Typhon's neck.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Antoninus Liberalis, Metamorphoses 28 (trans. Celoria)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you wish to find out more, Theoi Project, an invaluable online reference, has extensive information on [Typhoeus][1]. Wikipedia's [Typhon article][2] is also quite comprehensive.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.theoi.com/Gigante/Typhoeus.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhon" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19101" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5702" RevisionGUID="037abd9d-d0b4-41ce-8ea3-d2352a9b8204" CreationDate="2019-05-29T22:40:49.913" UserId="57" Comment="added 841 characters in body" Text="A prime example is Hector trying to flee Achilles in Book 22 of the *Iliad*. Here's how Homer describes the moment the mighty Trojan prince realizes he stands no chance against the enraged Achilles:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So he pondered as he abode, and nigh to him came Achilles, the peer of Enyalius, warrior of the waving helm, brandishing over his right shoulder the Pelian ash, his terrible spear; and all round about the bronze flashed like the gleam of blazing fire or of the sun as he riseth. But trembling gat hold of Hector when he was ware of him, neither dared he any more abide where he was, but left the gates behind him, and fled in fear; and the son of Peleus rushed after him, trusting in his fleetness of foot.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Homer. The Iliad. Translated by Murray, A T. Loeb Classical Library Volumes. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1924.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interestingly, Paris, Hector's younger brother, also fled a duel (Book 3). This time it was with Menelaus and it was supposed to determine the end of the Trojan War. Although it should be noted that Paris is described by Homer as severely lacking in military prowess - especially in comparison to his brother. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In another example from Greek mythology, when the serpentine storm giant Typhoeus attacked Olympus, the gods - except Athena and Zeus - disguised themselves as animals and fled to Egypt in panic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's a version of the story, as told by Antoninus Liberalis:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Typhon was the son of Ge (Gaea, Earth), a deity monstrous because of his strength, and of outlandish appearance. There grew out of him numerous heads and hands and wings, while from his thighs came huge coils of snakes. He emitted all kinds of roars and nothing could resist his might.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He felt an urge to usurp the rule of Zeus and not one of the gods could withstand him as he attacked. In panic they fled to Aigyptos (Egypt), all except Athena and Zeus, who alone were left. Typhon hunted after them, on their track. When they fled they had changed themselves in anticipation into animal forms.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollon became a hawk [i.e. the Egyptian god Horus], Hermes an ibis [the Egyptian god Thoth], Ares became a fish, the lepidotus [Egyptian Lepidotus or Onuris], Artemis a cat [Neith or Bastet], Dionysos took the shape of a goat [Osiris or Arsaphes], Herakles a fawn, Hephaistos (Hephaestus) an ox [Ptah], and Leto a shrew mouse [Wadjet]. The rest of the gods each took on what transformations they could. When Zeus struck Typhon with a thunderbolt, Typhon, aflame hid himself and quenched the blaze in the sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zeus did not desist but piled the highest mountain, Aitna (Etna), on Typon and set Hephaistos on the peak as a guard. Having set up his anvils, he works his red hot blooms on Typhon's neck.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Antoninus Liberalis, Metamorphoses 28 (trans. Celoria)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you wish to find out more, Theoi Project, an invaluable online reference, has extensive information on [Typhoeus][1]. Wikipedia's [Typhon article][2] is also quite comprehensive.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.theoi.com/Gigante/Typhoeus.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhon" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19102" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5702" RevisionGUID="94ff7653-fed1-4d75-bdeb-e41d0ab38a08" CreationDate="2019-05-29T22:51:04.507" UserId="57" Comment="added 841 characters in body" Text="A prime example is Hector trying to flee Achilles during their final duel in Book 22 of the *Iliad*. Hector was a celebrated warrior, the greatest of the Trojans. By the time of his ill-fated duel with the best of the Achaeans, he had survived an earlier duel with Achilles (mentioned briefly in Book 9), one with Protesilaus (whom he killed), and one with Telamonian Ajax (a tie), the second greatest of the Achaeans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's how Homer describes the moment the mighty Trojan prince realizes he stands no chance against the enraged Achilles:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So he pondered as he abode, and nigh to him came Achilles, the peer of Enyalius, warrior of the waving helm, brandishing over his right shoulder the Pelian ash, his terrible spear; and all round about the bronze flashed like the gleam of blazing fire or of the sun as he riseth. But trembling gat hold of Hector when he was ware of him, neither dared he any more abide where he was, but left the gates behind him, and fled in fear; and the son of Peleus rushed after him, trusting in his fleetness of foot.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Homer. The Iliad. Translated by Murray, A T. Loeb Classical Library Volumes. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1924.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interestingly, Paris, Hector's younger brother, also fled a duel (Book 3). This time it was with Menelaus and it was supposed to determine the end of the Trojan War. Although it should be noted that Paris is described by Homer as lacking in military prowess - especially in comparison to his brother. He probably doesn't quite fit your definition of a powerful figure of martial might.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In another example from Greek mythology, when the serpentine storm giant Typhoeus attacked Olympus, the gods - except Athena and Zeus - disguised themselves as animals and fled to Egypt in panic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's a version of the story, as told by Antoninus Liberalis:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Typhon was the son of Ge (Gaea, Earth), a deity monstrous because of his strength, and of outlandish appearance. There grew out of him numerous heads and hands and wings, while from his thighs came huge coils of snakes. He emitted all kinds of roars and nothing could resist his might.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He felt an urge to usurp the rule of Zeus and not one of the gods could withstand him as he attacked. In panic they fled to Aigyptos (Egypt), all except Athena and Zeus, who alone were left. Typhon hunted after them, on their track. When they fled they had changed themselves in anticipation into animal forms.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollon became a hawk [i.e. the Egyptian god Horus], Hermes an ibis [the Egyptian god Thoth], Ares became a fish, the lepidotus [Egyptian Lepidotus or Onuris], Artemis a cat [Neith or Bastet], Dionysos took the shape of a goat [Osiris or Arsaphes], Herakles a fawn, Hephaistos (Hephaestus) an ox [Ptah], and Leto a shrew mouse [Wadjet]. The rest of the gods each took on what transformations they could. When Zeus struck Typhon with a thunderbolt, Typhon, aflame hid himself and quenched the blaze in the sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zeus did not desist but piled the highest mountain, Aitna (Etna), on Typon and set Hephaistos on the peak as a guard. Having set up his anvils, he works his red hot blooms on Typhon's neck.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Antoninus Liberalis, Metamorphoses 28 (trans. Celoria)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you wish to find out more, Theoi Project, an invaluable online reference, has extensive information on [Typhoeus][1]. Wikipedia's [Typhon article][2] is also quite comprehensive.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.theoi.com/Gigante/Typhoeus.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhon" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19103" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5702" RevisionGUID="23065f1c-2536-49d8-b53a-de28be8206b6" CreationDate="2019-05-29T22:56:43.010" UserId="57" Comment="added 841 characters in body" Text="### Hector&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A prime example is Hector trying to flee Achilles during their final duel in Book 22 of the *Iliad*. Hector was a celebrated warrior, the greatest of the Trojans. By the time of his ill-fated duel with the best of the Achaeans, he had survived an earlier duel with Achilles (mentioned briefly in Book 9), one with Protesilaus (whom he killed), and one with Telamonian Ajax (a tie), the second greatest of the Achaeans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's how Homer describes the moment the mighty Trojan prince realizes he stands no chance against the enraged Achilles:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So he pondered as he abode, and nigh to him came Achilles, the peer of Enyalius, warrior of the waving helm, brandishing over his right shoulder the Pelian ash, his terrible spear; and all round about the bronze flashed like the gleam of blazing fire or of the sun as he riseth. But trembling gat hold of Hector when he was ware of him, neither dared he any more abide where he was, but left the gates behind him, and fled in fear; and the son of Peleus rushed after him, trusting in his fleetness of foot.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Homer. The Iliad. Translated by Murray, A T. Loeb Classical Library Volumes. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1924.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interestingly, Paris, Hector's younger brother, also fled a duel (Book 3). This time it was with Menelaus and it was supposed to determine the end of the Trojan War. Although it should be noted that Paris is described by Homer as lacking in military prowess - especially in comparison to his brother. He probably doesn't quite fit your definition of a powerful figure of martial might.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### Typhon &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In another example from Greek mythology, when the serpentine storm giant Typhon attacked Olympus, the gods - except Athena and Zeus - disguised themselves as animals and fled to Egypt in panic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's a version of the story, as told by Antoninus Liberalis:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Typhon was the son of Ge (Gaea, Earth), a deity monstrous because of his strength, and of outlandish appearance. There grew out of him numerous heads and hands and wings, while from his thighs came huge coils of snakes. He emitted all kinds of roars and nothing could resist his might.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He felt an urge to usurp the rule of Zeus and not one of the gods could withstand him as he attacked. In panic they fled to Aigyptos (Egypt), all except Athena and Zeus, who alone were left. Typhon hunted after them, on their track. When they fled they had changed themselves in anticipation into animal forms.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollon became a hawk [i.e. the Egyptian god Horus], Hermes an ibis [the Egyptian god Thoth], Ares became a fish, the lepidotus [Egyptian Lepidotus or Onuris], Artemis a cat [Neith or Bastet], Dionysos took the shape of a goat [Osiris or Arsaphes], Herakles a fawn, Hephaistos (Hephaestus) an ox [Ptah], and Leto a shrew mouse [Wadjet]. The rest of the gods each took on what transformations they could. When Zeus struck Typhon with a thunderbolt, Typhon, aflame hid himself and quenched the blaze in the sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zeus did not desist but piled the highest mountain, Aitna (Etna), on Typon and set Hephaistos on the peak as a guard. Having set up his anvils, he works his red hot blooms on Typhon's neck.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Antoninus Liberalis, Metamorphoses 28 (trans. Celoria)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you wish to find out more, Theoi Project, an invaluable online reference, has extensive information on [Typhon][1]. Wikipedia's [Typhon article][2] is also quite comprehensive.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.theoi.com/Gigante/Typhoeus.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhon" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19104" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5703" RevisionGUID="c7838de8-2fb6-4cac-a4b3-f33813878a59" CreationDate="2019-05-29T23:54:52.363" UserId="57" Text="Locals in Edipsos in the north of Evia are always quick to point out that the legendary Herakles would visit their town to rejuvenate himself in its spa waters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the source of this legend?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19105" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5703" RevisionGUID="c7838de8-2fb6-4cac-a4b3-f33813878a59" CreationDate="2019-05-29T23:54:52.363" UserId="57" Text="What is the source of the legend of Herakles bathing in the spa waters of Edipsos?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19106" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5703" RevisionGUID="c7838de8-2fb6-4cac-a4b3-f33813878a59" CreationDate="2019-05-29T23:54:52.363" UserId="57" Text="|greek|hercules|source-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19107" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5703" RevisionGUID="92807c4a-0e5d-413a-8601-337e5e20cef3" CreationDate="2019-05-30T00:02:00.460" UserId="57" Comment="added 1004 characters in body" Text="Locals in the spa town of Edipsos in the north of Evia are always quick to point out that the legendary Herakles would visit their town to rejuvenate himself in its spa waters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here are a few sites mentioning the tale, without, unfortunately identifying its source: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  The goddess Athena asked from the god of fire, Hephestus, to bring to earth warm, relaxing, healing waters so that her protegee, the hero Hercules, could come and rest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; https://www.gtp.gr/LocPage.asp?id=4932&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to mythology, the precious water flowed for the very first time when Hephaestus beat the land with his hammer. It was a favour to goddess Athena, who believed that the thermal springs would keep Hercules healthy and powerful! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; https://www.eviafoxhouse.com/attraction/the-healing-thermal-springs-of-edipsos/&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The unique healing qualities of the waters were a source of ... inspiration for mythology. An ancient Greek legend says that the goddess Athena asked her brother Hephaestus to create the baths of Edipsos to rest here after each feat her beloved hero Hercules.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; https://www.almyra-holiday-village.gr/en/location&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do we know what the sources of this legend are?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19108" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3355" RevisionGUID="bebc96e5-b88f-41a4-838b-55c5123dca9c" CreationDate="2019-05-30T00:06:20.013" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|underworld|source-request|theseus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19109" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5703" RevisionGUID="a6e54108-4bbd-417e-bd2a-e46c5798c103" CreationDate="2019-05-30T00:12:16.297" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body" Text="Locals in the spa town of Edipsos in the north of Evia are always quick to point out that the legendary Herakles would visit their town to rejuvenate himself in its spa waters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here are a few sites mentioning the tale, without, unfortunately identifying its source: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  The goddess Athena asked from the god of fire, Hephestus, to bring to earth warm, relaxing, healing waters so that her protegee, the hero Hercules, could come and rest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; https://www.gtp.gr/LocPage.asp?id=4932&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to mythology, the precious water flowed for the very first time when Hephaestus beat the land with his hammer. It was a favour to goddess Athena, who believed that the thermal springs would keep Hercules healthy and powerful! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; https://www.eviafoxhouse.com/attraction/the-healing-thermal-springs-of-edipsos/&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The unique healing qualities of the waters were a source of ... inspiration for mythology. An ancient Greek legend says that the goddess Athena asked her brother Hephaestus to create the baths of Edipsos to rest here after each feat her beloved hero Hercules.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; https://www.almyra-holiday-village.gr/en/location&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do we know what is the source of this legend?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19110" PostHistoryTypeId="52" PostId="5699" RevisionGUID="7da75e6d-97f2-4135-8897-7c714c407a46" CreationDate="2019-05-30T02:16:58.850" />
  <row Id="19111" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5687" RevisionGUID="7d19f2d2-039c-4292-9407-eac0e59e01a0" CreationDate="2019-05-30T10:25:42.973" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="Kersey Graves in *The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors* compiled a list of sixteen messianic figures that preceded Jesus and were crucified on a tree, rock or cross before ascending into heaven. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The oldest one on the list is a Thulis of Egypt:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; X. CRUCIFIXION OF THULIS OF EGYPT, 1700 B.C.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thulis of Egypt, whence comes &quot;Ultima Thule,&quot; died the death of the cross about thirty-five hundred years ago. Ultima Thule was the island which marked the ultimate bounds of the extensive empire of this legitimate descendant of the Gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This Egyptian Savior appears also to have been known as Zulis, and with this name—Mr. Wilkison tells us—&quot;his history is curiously illustrated in the sculptures, made seventeen hundred years B.C., of a small, retired chamber lying nearly over the western adytum of the temple.&quot; We are told twenty-eight lotus plants near his grave indicate the number of years be lived on the earth. After suffering a violent death, he was buried, but rose again, ascended into heaven, and there became &quot;the judge of the dead,&quot; or of souls in a future state. Wilkison says he came down from heaven to benefit mankind, and that he was said to be full of grace and truth.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors. by Kersey Graves&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've tried to find more information on this Thulis (or Zulis or Zhule), but was not successful. It seems that every bit of information about him online inevitably leads back to Graves. I'm not entirely sure who &quot;Mr. Wilkison&quot; is, but I suspect it is John Gardner Wilkinson, a renowned Egyptologist.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a different part of the book, Graves gives Osiris as an alternate name for Thulis. Osiris died a violent death, was resurrected and was considered as king of the underworld. It vaguely matches the general pattern Graves is looking for, but some of the details remain a mystery (e.g. the connection to Ultima Thule).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who is Thulis of Egypt? Is it Osiris? If so, do we know which tales of Osiris provide the details Graves mentions?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19112" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5699" RevisionGUID="a8f91d49-ff38-475b-b371-050029af8aa2" CreationDate="2019-05-30T10:28:39.327" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="Have powerful heroes ever shown deep fear or fled?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am aware that foes and enemies of heroes at times flee them but I cannot think of any incidents where some powerful figure of martial might in any mythological or folklore tale is outmatched and runs away or shows deep fear.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Have such things happened in any stories? figures of great might who when called to fight shook in their boots and ran away?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gods are fine as well, so long as they are at least partially heroes, not beings of evil to be vanquished by the good gods or heroes." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19113" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5704" RevisionGUID="8bfdabee-3552-4d36-b6f1-48ca4cc6ad0a" CreationDate="2019-05-30T15:44:00.107" UserId="57" Text="Another one from Kersey Graves' *The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors*: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; XIV. CRITE OF CHALDEA CRUCIFIED, 1200 B.C.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Chaldeans, as Mr. Higgins informs us, have noted in their sacred books the account of the crucifixion of a God with the above name. He was also known as &quot;the Redeemer,&quot; and was styled &quot;the Ever Blessed Son of God,&quot; &quot;the Savior of the Race,&quot; &quot;the Atoning Offering for an Angry God.&quot; And when he was offered up, both heaven and earth were shaken to their foundations.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As with [Thulis of Egypt][1], most search results for &quot;Crite of Chaldea&quot; online recycle Graves. I assume &quot;Mr. Higgins&quot; is the religious historian Godfrey Higgins, however, searching for Crite in the [archive.org version of his book][2] *Anacalypsis* did not yield any results. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who is Crite of Chaldea?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/5687/57&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://archive.org/details/anacalypsisattem01higg/page/n6" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19114" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5704" RevisionGUID="8bfdabee-3552-4d36-b6f1-48ca4cc6ad0a" CreationDate="2019-05-30T15:44:00.107" UserId="57" Text="Who is Crite of Chaldea?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19115" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5704" RevisionGUID="8bfdabee-3552-4d36-b6f1-48ca4cc6ad0a" CreationDate="2019-05-30T15:44:00.107" UserId="57" Text="|source-request|worlds-sixteen-crucified-saviors|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19116" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5687" RevisionGUID="de34f1cc-6802-4923-85ec-8ea1a19ecb57" CreationDate="2019-05-30T15:44:11.353" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|source-request|worlds-sixteen-crucified-saviors|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19117" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5691" RevisionGUID="fbf3847a-af48-4477-b6d2-dd57551f89dd" CreationDate="2019-05-30T15:44:24.200" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|roman|source-request|worlds-sixteen-crucified-saviors|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19118" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5701" RevisionGUID="dab32968-85dd-4086-a656-e96a7c6ff1f9" CreationDate="2019-05-30T16:42:27.243" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected a detail" Text="The Man&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He is supposed to be one of the earliest kings of Egypt; he also supposedly conquered the entire world, says the story, &quot;all the way to Okeanos [Oceanus].&quot; Most English translations of his name, starting sometime in the 20th century onwards, seem to favour spelling it with a transliteration closer to Θοῦλις than &quot;Thulis&quot; is; so it is much easier to find information on him (in English)—i.e., going *beyond* Kersey Graves—if one were to look up ***Thoulis***.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;His story comes from a work penned in the 500s AD, entitled the *Khronographia*, &quot;Chronicle,&quot; by a writer from Antioch named John Malalas (c. 491 – 578). Thoulis's story is part of John's history of the world, which follows the narrative supplied by the Book of Genesis in the Bible, filling in details along the way, but after the Flood it goes into the first kings of some of the world's most famous empires. When Thoulis shows up on the scene near the beginning of *Khronographia* Book 2, if my count is correct, seven (or at least six) kings have reigned over Egypt. Thoulis is thus the eighth (or seventh).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Section 3 of Book 2:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; After the death of Helios son of Hephaistos [Hephaestus], Sosis ruled&#xD;&#xA;&gt; over the Egyptians. After him reigned Osiris; Horos [Horus] reigned&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after Osiris, and Thoulis ruled after Horos. Using a large force, this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; last one conquered the whole earth, as far as Okeanos. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And as he was returning, he came to the land of Aphrika [Africa] and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; arrogantly approached an oracle. Having made a sacrifice, he beseeched&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the oracle in these words: “Tell me, Pyristhenes [Mighty with Fire],&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apseudes [Un-false {i.e. Truthful} One], Makar [Blessed One], you who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bend the aetherial course: Who, prior to my reign, had the power to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; subject all to him? And who shall have the power to do so after me?” &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The oracle responded: “First: God, and then the Word, and with them&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Spirit. All things were generated together, and they go toward the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One, whose power is aeonian. Make haste to depart from here, mortal,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and complete your worthless life.” And as soon as he left the oracle&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he fell victim to a plot by his companions and was slain in Aphrika.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Manetho prepared a record of these ancient and primaeval kingdoms of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Egyptians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Place&#xD;&#xA;---------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thoulē (Θούλη), Latinised as Thūlē, is an island which, from as early as the 300s BC, Greek and Roman writers described as being at the extreme edge of the world as far as they knew it, somewhere in northern Europe. Regarding it, Wikipedia says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In classical and medieval literature, ***ultima Thule*** (Latin&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;farthermost Thule&quot;) acquired a metaphorical meaning of any distant&#xD;&#xA;&gt; place located beyond the &quot;borders of the known world&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; By the Late Middle Ages and early modern period, the Greco-Roman Thule&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was often identified with the real Iceland or Greenland. Sometimes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Ultima Thule* was a Latin name for Greenland, when Thule was used for Iceland. By the late 19th century, however, *Thule* was frequently&#xD;&#xA;&gt; identified with Norway.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the footnotes to his translation of the *Khronographia*, Jason Colavito says that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The *Suda* (s.v. Thoulis) gives the same story but adds that the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; oracle belonged to Serapis and that the island of Thule was named for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Presumably Thoulis gives his name to this remotest of locations in order to mark the extent of his dominion, although this etymology for the island seems to be unique to the *Souda* [*Suda*], an encyclopaedia compiled some four centuries after Malalas' time. Most ancient and mediaeval writers who mention Thoule, if they discuss the origin of its name, do not seem to know about or be bothered with Thoulis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Source&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Benjamin Garstad, in his article &quot;The account of Thoulis, king of Egypt, in the *Chronographia* of John Malalas&quot; (in Vol. 107, Issue 1 of the *Byzantinische Zeitschrift* [2014]), tells us (in the Abstract, on p. 51) that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Thoulis first appears in the sixth-century chronicle of John Malalas.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It has been suggested that his name is a corruption of the material&#xD;&#xA;&gt; found in the traditional Egyptian king-lists, but it seems more likely&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that he and the narrative associated with him are a fiction of more&#xD;&#xA;&gt; recent invention. Thoulis is modeled on Sesostris, Osiris, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Alexander the Great and the narrative of his exploits alludes to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stories of these figures. The focus of this narrative is an oracle&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which deflates the king’s arrogance and obliquely prophesies the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; doctrine of the Trinity. This oracle is consistent with the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; exploitation of ostensibly genuine oracles in the pagan-Christian&#xD;&#xA;&gt; polemics of the fourth century. Indeed, the account of Thoulis as a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whole seems to have been drafted to advance the Christian position in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this debate, apparently by one Bouttios in the late fourth century.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*[Emphasis mine]*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He goes on to say (on pp. 51-52) that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In spite of the grandiose claims made for him, that he was king of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Egypt and conqueror of the world, **he first appears in the sixth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; century chronicle of John Malalas and thereafter in works ultimately&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dependent on Malalas.**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*[Emphasis mine]*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Garstad then footnotes these works as: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;the &quot;*Chronicon Paschale* (ed. L. Dindorf. Bonn 1832, I 83-84)&quot;&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;the aforementioned *Souda* entry&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;H. Erbse, Fragmente griechischer Theosophien/ Theosophorum Graecorum&#xD;&#xA;   Fragmenta (&amp; Syriac translations of parts of this)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;George Cedrenus, Compendium Historiarum&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Fragmenta Historicum Graecorum, associated with John of&#xD;&#xA;   Antioch&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The article continues (p. 52), saying that Thoulis&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; seems to be the central figure of a fiction which made a late entry into&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the legendary material on Egypt, and to have been given such eminence&#xD;&#xA;&gt; chiefly in order to make him an apt recipient for a humiliating oracle&#xD;&#xA;&gt; abasing the mightiest of human rulers and extolling the Trinity...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Specifically Thoulis appears to have been invented by one of Malalas'&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sources, Bouttios, in the later fourth century, but accepted and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; presented as perfectly historical by Malalas himself some two&#xD;&#xA;&gt; centuries later.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Based on the names which appear in the traditional ancient list of Egypt's kings, Jason Colavito thinks that Thoulis is &quot;A corruption of Typhonis, or Typhon, the Greek name for Set.&quot; For a few different reasons, including some previously quoted here, Garstad would disagree with that position, saying that Thoulis was probably invented out of whole cloth, with a name that would sound and look Egyptian to speakers and readers of Greek. In support of this argument he gives an example from Plato, who in his *Phaedrus*, has Socrates talk about a pair of Egyptian gods called Theuth and Thamus, who are a spontaneous invention of Plato for the occasion (unless &quot;Theuth&quot; is supposed to = Thoth). The initial letter theta (Θ) in the characters' names, just as in &quot;Thoulis,&quot; is here supposed to be &quot;somehow characteristic of Egyptian nomenclature.&quot;    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his article (p. 57), says Garstad:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The name of Thoulis might even have been suggested by Manetho's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; king-lists. There are at least a couple of royal names which sound&#xD;&#xA;&gt; similar: Athothis, the second king of the first dynasty, and Thouoris,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the fifth or sixth king of the nineteenth dynasty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By the end of his argument (pp. 74-75), however, Garstad is convinced that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Thoulis... did not come into being as the result of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; corruption of the names in the Egyptian king-list. He was invented as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; an addition to the number of famous world conquerors of antiquity. He&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was modeled on some of the most prominent of those conquerors,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sesostris, Osiris, and Alexander, given their traits and made to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; undergo their experiences, because he was supposed to recall their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stories and embody the prideful conqueror who vies with God. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; success of Thoulis is noted not for its own sake, but to demonstrate the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; real value of even the greatest human achievement. The significance of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the story of Thoulis lies in the humiliation of his conceit and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; insistence upon the pathetic mortality of the whole line of kings&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whose pretensions to divinity were still respected in some circles.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The unmistakably Christian terms of the oracle Thoulis receives reveal&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the tendency of the author and suggest his intent. Thoulis is a straw&#xD;&#xA;&gt; man representing pagan kings and pagan gods in the great argument&#xD;&#xA;&gt; between paganism and Christianity which marked the fourth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; century.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Describing the *Khronographia*, Jason Colavito says that its author &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;John rejects the existence of ancient kingdoms before Noah's Flood and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; therefore has relocated stories of primeval Egypt to the period after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Flood, reorganizing Manetho's list of kings to place the first&#xD;&#xA;&gt; post-diluvian monarchs before those originally ascribed to the time of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the gods. John also follows an older Christian tradition of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rationalizing pagan mythology as the deeds of human kings.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Osiris and Thoulis&#xD;&#xA;------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Neither in the *Khronographia* nor in any of the mediaeval works which come after it are Thoulis and Osiris the same entity or even identified with each other. As shown above, Thoulis succeeds Horos on the throne, who in turn had succeeded Osiris. Traditionally we know that Horos is the son of Osiris. John makes no mention of the relationship between Thoulis and his predecessors but from the flow of the narrative it looks as though we are to understand him as having begun a new dynasty, perhaps even violently ending Horos's reign.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are some parallels, however, between John's account of Thoulis on the one hand, and the story of Osiris as narrated by a more ancient Greek author, namely Diodorus Siculus, who has Osiris conquer the world with a huge army. As Garstad's article (pp. 61-62) tells us:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [B]oth Osiris and Thoulis are treacherously slain by close associates&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on their return from campaign... Osiris was killed and dismembered by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his brother Typhon. It is this detail in the story of Thoulis, that an&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Egyptian king was plotted against and killed by relatives or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; companions (ὑπὸ τῶν ἰδίων) which most clearly recalls the famous story&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Osiris. In this connection, it is not hard to find some&#xD;&#xA;&gt; significance in the precise term used of the killing of Thoulis. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; word, ἐσϕάγη, from σϕάζω, may mean simply that he was slain, but it&#xD;&#xA;&gt; can also refer to slaughtering or killing as a sacrifice. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; implications of butchery and ritual inherent in the term, especially&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in the context of an Egyptian ruler treacherously slain by his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; relations, would almost unavoidably recall the murder of Osiris. Its&#xD;&#xA;&gt; affinities with the story of Osiris, especially the historicized&#xD;&#xA;&gt; account found in Diodorus, no doubt offered a certain verisimilitude&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to the novel fiction of the account of Thoulis; it sounded like the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; typical tale of an Egyptian king of the distant past.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kersey Graves' supplementary &quot;Zulis&quot; spelling of this character's name is bewildering, and seems, at least to me, to be a sort of science-fiction/fantasy remix thereof, on the order of Socrates' Egyptian deities Theuth and Thamus. The only guess I've got for &quot;Zhule&quot; is that it might be the spelling of *Th[o]ule* (the *place*-name) in some European language other than English or Latin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarities, or the Lack Thereof&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While the parallels between Osiris and Jesus are indeed fascinatingly striking, we do know that in the Gospel accounts Jesus is never dismembered, some emphasis being made in pointing out that while his wounds were gruesome, none of his bones were ever broken. With Osiris, an important aspect of his story certainly is that his corpse gets chopped to pieces and then later reassembled before his resurrection. The canonical Bible is vague and controversial, even among Christians, as to whether Jesus descended into the Underworld after death or not. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At this point, however, Christ parallels Osiris in an especially inverse manner, in that Osiris does not, at least in the original Egyptian version of his story, ascend into heaven; he *de*scends, or remains, in the Underworld and it is there that he becomes the judge of the dead. Christ on the other hand, does in fact ascend into heaven and there is a distinct emphasis on his upcoming return to the mortal realm before an eschatological judgement of the dead. But most importantly for the purposes of Graves's book title, Osiris is never crucified! Quite poetically, he gets entombed alive, in a sense, and *this* is what *causes* his death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I point all that out in order to compare both Osiris and Jesus with Thoulis, and, as it happens, there is nothing connecting Thoulis with the other two that is as remarkable as the noted similarities between Osiris and Jesus, or as Graves would like there to be. John does not tell us that Thoulis is crucified in any fashion, nor is there any reason for us to necessarily understand his death in this way. If we are supposed to link him to Osiris, then we have seen that, as a matter of fact, this compels us even less to think of crucifixion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While Osiris, in the original Egyptian religion and mythology, is indeed some sort of &quot;salvific&quot; figure (&quot;messianic&quot; in the ancient Israelite sense, I think, is pushing it just a little bit), Thoulis definitely is not. He is quite obviously a cautionary tale of someone you do not want to be like. In the *Khronographia*, after his story, John moves on to other powerful rulers, who are clearly his own fictionalised renditions of well-known characters from ancient Greco-Egyptian myth and history. Thoulis simply goes the way of all flesh, as it were, no deification, resurrection or ascension or anything of the like on the horizon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And (w)here we are now&#xD;&#xA;--------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is really ironic that a Christian writer invented this king and his story in order to promote humility, together with a particularly specific Christian doctrine, and yet Thoulis/Thulis is now, seemingly, best known in new media as some kind of archaic competitor to Christianity (or as the founder of a sort of proto-Christianity). That is perhaps the greatest achievement of Mr Graves with regard to this personage. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;(By the way, notice that while Graves is definitely [mis]quoting {ahem!} John Gardner Wilkinson, he never actually gets his name right with his &quot;Mr. Wilkison&quot; references. Like with his &quot;Zulis&quot;, it almost feels as if it's there to deliberately throw you off the track.)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Further Reading**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;**Dr Benjamin Garstad's article**, which goes quite in depth,&#xD;&#xA;   discussing many more angles to the story and its potential origins, is available&#xD;&#xA;   on&#xD;&#xA;   [Academia.edu](https://www.academia.edu/28053343/_The_Account_of_Thoulis_king_of_Egypt_in_the_Chronographia_of_John_Malalas._Byzantinische_Zeitschrift_107_2014_51-76).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;**Jason Colavito's 2018 translation of the *Khronographia*** is&#xD;&#xA;   available on his webpage entitled [John Malalas on Ancient&#xD;&#xA;   Egypt](http://www.jasoncolavito.com/john-malalas-on-ancient-egypt.html),&#xD;&#xA;   with very helpful notes to further contextualise the situation in the&#xD;&#xA;   work's authorship as well as in the scenes taking place in the&#xD;&#xA;   stories which it narrates. (It's also a fairly quick read.)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;The Australian Association for Byzantine Studies: Byzantina&#xD;&#xA;   Australiensia 4 also has ***The Chronicle of John Malalas: A&#xD;&#xA;   Translation*** by Elizabeth Jeffreys, Michael Jeffreys and Roger Scott&#xD;&#xA;   with Brian Croke, Jenny Ferber, Simon Franklin, Alan James, Douglas&#xD;&#xA;   Kelly, Ann Moffatt, Ann Nixon (Melbourne 1986) on&#xD;&#xA;   [Calamēo](https://en.calameo.com/read/000675905f2f4bf509d49).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;**The *Khronographia*** is available in the Greek, with an accompanying Latin translation thereof, on [Archive.org](https://archive.org/details/ioannismalalaec00malagoog/page/n105).&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19119" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5694" RevisionGUID="ff370f0e-ef48-4b14-9096-0ec651f281f6" CreationDate="2019-05-30T17:22:38.577" UserId="6084" Comment="added 79 characters in body" Text="Diana Wynne Jones's autobiography contains an interesting report on what Tolkien lectured about at university:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He started with the simplest possible story: a man (prince or woodcutter) going on a journey. He then gave the journey an aim, and we found that the simple picaresque plot had developed into a quest story. I am not quite sure what happened then, but I know that by the end he was discussing the peculiar adaptation of the quest story which Chaucer made in his “Pardoner’s Tale.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am wondering if anyone can recommend particular references on the structure of [quest] plots and how different authors such as Chaucer deliberately varied or subverted them. (A reference only on how Chaucer did this would be interesting enough, as well)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm familiar already with works like Propp's morphology of the folktale, which is close but tends to discuss more of the commonalities and less on contrast or variation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks for your help!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19120" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5705" RevisionGUID="e8f4eb76-6c65-4b74-98f4-1b9ca29f09c6" CreationDate="2019-05-30T17:36:30.087" UserId="6071" Text="One source is Strabo, who calls the hot springs of Edipsos the &quot;hot waters of Heracles&quot; in Geography 9.4.2.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19122" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5706" RevisionGUID="58617b00-4197-46d6-b5b9-221428216c67" CreationDate="2019-05-30T19:44:37.510" UserId="2682" Text="***&gt;File Not Found!&lt;***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From what I've been able to find, there is no ancient source which tells such a story about Aidepsos (the commonly older transliteration of the town's name, which is Latinised as Aedepsus). It seems that this &quot;legend&quot; has been cobbled together from a random grab-bag created by eclectically appropriating of a variety of sources talking about Herakles in relation to baths or hot springs in general as well as specifically in relation to *other* places *apart* from Aidepsos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Assorted References**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Athenaeus' *Deipnosophistai* 12.512, all hot springs which rise up out of the ground are said to be sacred to Herakles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Strabo's *Geographika* 9.4.2 says that there &quot;are the hot waters of Herakles&quot; at Aidepsos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the characters in Aristophanes' *Nephelai* (&quot;Clouds&quot;) asks, rhetorically, in Lines 1050-1052, &quot;Where did you ever see baths of Herakles that were cold?&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *scholion* on this, in what has been labelled as Fragment 7 of Peisander (c. 600s/500s BC), tells us that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At Thermopylai [Thermopylae] the goddess grey-eyed Athena made hot bathing-spots for &#xD;&#xA;&gt; him along the edge of the sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From context the &quot;him&quot; is generally interpreted to be Herakles. This is referring, however, not to Aidepsos but to Thermopylai, which incidentally is roughly in the same neighbourhood but separated from Aidepsos by the Malian Gulf and several good stretches of land, with Aidepsos lying on Euboia [Euboea] Island and Thermopylai being on the Greek mainland. Hot springs are common in the region.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At this point Strabo does have more to say, in *Geographika* 9.4.13 (a little bit further down in the same chapter), telling us that Thermopylai, meaning &quot;Hot Gates,&quot; is so named because &quot;there are hot waters near it which are honoured as sacred to Herakles&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Diodorus Siculus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The closest we get to the Edipsos legend in an ancient source is Diodorus Siculus, who refers to an event set in Sicily, quite some distance away from the Malian Gulf area(!). In his *Bibliotheka Historika* (&quot;Library of History&quot;) 4.23.1, he says that: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Upon his arrival in Sikelia [Sicily], Herakles desired to make the circuit of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the entire island and so set out from Pelorias in the direction of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eryx. While passing along the coast of the island, the myths relate,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Nymphs caused warm baths to gush forth so that he might refresh&#xD;&#xA;&gt; himself after the toil sustained in journeying. There are two of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; these, called respectively Himeraia [Himeraea] and Egestaia&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Egestaea], each of them having its name from the place where the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; baths are.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To go a bit deeper into the story we have to flip over to the next book, where, in 5.3.4, Athena becomes the patron goddess of Himera in Sicily. Here, the Nymphs, in order&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to find favour with Athena, caused the hot water springs to erupt and flow forth vigorously when Herakles visited the island, and the inhabitants&#xD;&#xA;&gt; consecrated a city to her and a tract of land which to this day is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; called Athena’s.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The *Souda***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only other information source to fall back onto is the 10th century AD encyclopaedia called the *Souda* [*Suda*; sometimes *Suidae*], which, for our purposes, helpfully fills in a few details.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In the article `Herakleios psora`, &quot;Herakleian itch,&quot; it says that&#xD;&#xA;   this is a particularly difficult sort of itch to treat, requiring &quot;Herakleian&quot;&#xD;&#xA;   baths, &quot;For Athena recommended Herakles many baths to cure his ills.&quot;&#xD;&#xA; - According to the `Thermopylai` entry of the *Souda*, &quot;Some call this&#xD;&#xA;   city Pylai [Pylae, &quot;Gates&quot;]. But Philaias [Philaeas] says that it is&#xD;&#xA;   called Thermopylai [&quot;Hot Gates&quot;], since Athena made hot baths for&#xD;&#xA;   Herakles there.&quot;&#xD;&#xA; - Finally, the article `Herakleia loutra`, &quot;Herakleian baths,&quot; says that this term means τὰ θερμά (*ta therma*,&#xD;&#xA;   &quot;hot ones&quot;), &quot;For Hephaistos [Hephaestus] gave them to Herakles as a&#xD;&#xA;   gift. From these comes the term *ta therma* [the &quot;hot&quot; {i.e. hot&#xD;&#xA;   *baths*}].&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This last one seems to be the only reference anywhere to a link between Hephaistos and Herakles-baths. Athena is not mentioned in connection with him here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Summary**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As we see above, Diodorus Siculus appears to think it that was &quot;the Nymphs&quot; who created hot springs for Athena, presumably for the benefit of Herakles, although the passage is not explicit about that aspect thereof; and whatever the case is with that, the event does not even take place in Greece at all.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Geographically speaking the nearest we can get to the Edipsos legend mentioned by those websites is across the sea (and a decent chunk of Euboian promontory too) in Thermopylai, where Athena does not seem to have required Hephaistos' assistance with her Herakleian baths project.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;     " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19123" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5702" RevisionGUID="5f5ea994-d4c9-47f1-9232-a45ab01262e5" CreationDate="2019-05-30T21:29:59.617" UserId="57" Comment="added 230 characters in body" Text="### Hector's last fight&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A prime example is Hector trying to flee Achilles during their final duel in Book 22 of the *Iliad*. Hector was a celebrated warrior, the greatest of the Trojans and commander of their army. By the time of his ill-fated duel with the best of the Achaeans, he had survived an earlier duel with Achilles (mentioned briefly in Book 9), one with Protesilaus (whom he killed), and one with the second greatest of the Achaeans, Telamonian Ajax (a tie).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's how Homer describes the moment the mighty Trojan prince realizes he stands no chance against the enraged Achilles:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So he pondered as he abode, and nigh to him came Achilles, the peer of Enyalius, warrior of the waving helm, brandishing over his right shoulder the Pelian ash, his terrible spear; and all round about the bronze flashed like the gleam of blazing fire or of the sun as he riseth. But trembling gat hold of Hector when he was ware of him, neither dared he any more abide where he was, but left the gates behind him, and fled in fear; and the son of Peleus rushed after him, trusting in his fleetness of foot.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Homer. The Iliad. Translated by Murray, A T. Loeb Classical Library Volumes. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1924.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The two run around the walls of Troy three times until the Trojan prince and stands to fight.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interestingly, Paris, Hector's younger brother, also fled a duel (Book 3), with a little bit of help from Aphrodite. This time it was against Menelaus and their duel was an attempt to end the war. It should be noted, however, that Paris is described by Homer as lacking in military prowess - especially in comparison to his brother. He probably doesn't quite fit your definition of a powerful figure of martial might.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### Typhon &amp; the flight of the gods to Egypt&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In another example from Greek mythology, when the serpentine storm giant Typhon attacked Olympus, the gods - except Zeus, Athena and in some versions Dionysus - disguised themselves as animals and fled to Egypt in panic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's a version of the story, as told by Antoninus Liberalis:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Typhon was the son of Ge (Gaea, Earth), a deity monstrous because of his strength, and of outlandish appearance. There grew out of him numerous heads and hands and wings, while from his thighs came huge coils of snakes. He emitted all kinds of roars and nothing could resist his might.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He felt an urge to usurp the rule of Zeus and not one of the gods could withstand him as he attacked. In panic they fled to Aigyptos (Egypt), all except Athena and Zeus, who alone were left. Typhon hunted after them, on their track. When they fled they had changed themselves in anticipation into animal forms.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollon became a hawk [i.e. the Egyptian god Horus], Hermes an ibis [the Egyptian god Thoth], Ares became a fish, the lepidotus [Egyptian Lepidotus or Onuris], Artemis a cat [Neith or Bastet], Dionysos took the shape of a goat [Osiris or Arsaphes], Herakles a fawn, Hephaistos (Hephaestus) an ox [Ptah], and Leto a shrew mouse [Wadjet]. The rest of the gods each took on what transformations they could. When Zeus struck Typhon with a thunderbolt, Typhon, aflame hid himself and quenched the blaze in the sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zeus did not desist but piled the highest mountain, Aitna (Etna), on Typon and set Hephaistos on the peak as a guard. Having set up his anvils, he works his red hot blooms on Typhon's neck.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Antoninus Liberalis, Metamorphoses 28 (trans. Celoria)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you wish to find out more, Theoi Project, an invaluable online reference, has extensive information on [Typhon][1]. Wikipedia's [Typhon article][2] is also quite comprehensive.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.theoi.com/Gigante/Typhoeus.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhon" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19124" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5702" RevisionGUID="52023d94-9b0d-446f-a23e-155618322a89" CreationDate="2019-05-30T21:38:26.653" UserId="57" Comment="added 10 characters in body" Text="### Hector's last fight&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A prime example is Hector trying to flee Achilles during their final duel in Book 22 of the *Iliad*. Hector was a celebrated warrior, the greatest of the Trojans and commander of their army. By the time of his ill-fated duel with the best of the Achaeans, he had survived an earlier duel with Achilles (mentioned briefly in Book 9), one with Protesilaus (whom he killed), and one with the second greatest of the Achaeans, Telamonian Ajax (a tie).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's how Homer describes the moment the mighty Trojan prince realizes he stands no chance against the enraged Achilles:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So he pondered as he abode, and nigh to him came Achilles, the peer of Enyalius, warrior of the waving helm, brandishing over his right shoulder the Pelian ash, his terrible spear; and all round about the bronze flashed like the gleam of blazing fire or of the sun as he riseth. But trembling gat hold of Hector when he was ware of him, neither dared he any more abide where he was, but left the gates behind him, and fled in fear; and the son of Peleus rushed after him, trusting in his fleetness of foot.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Homer. The Iliad. Translated by Murray, A T. Loeb Classical Library Volumes. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1924.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The two run around the walls of Troy three times until Hector regains his courage and decides to fight.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interestingly, Paris, Hector's younger brother, also fled a duel (Book 3), with a little bit of help from Aphrodite. This time it was against Menelaus and their duel was an attempt to end the war. It should be noted, however, that Paris is described by Homer as lacking in military prowess - especially in comparison to his brother. He probably doesn't quite fit your definition of a powerful figure of martial might.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### Typhon &amp; the flight of the gods to Egypt&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In another example from Greek mythology, when the serpentine storm giant Typhon attacked Olympus, the gods - except Zeus, Athena and in some versions Dionysus - disguised themselves as animals and fled to Egypt in panic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's a version of the story, as told by Antoninus Liberalis:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Typhon was the son of Ge (Gaea, Earth), a deity monstrous because of his strength, and of outlandish appearance. There grew out of him numerous heads and hands and wings, while from his thighs came huge coils of snakes. He emitted all kinds of roars and nothing could resist his might.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He felt an urge to usurp the rule of Zeus and not one of the gods could withstand him as he attacked. In panic they fled to Aigyptos (Egypt), all except Athena and Zeus, who alone were left. Typhon hunted after them, on their track. When they fled they had changed themselves in anticipation into animal forms.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollon became a hawk [i.e. the Egyptian god Horus], Hermes an ibis [the Egyptian god Thoth], Ares became a fish, the lepidotus [Egyptian Lepidotus or Onuris], Artemis a cat [Neith or Bastet], Dionysos took the shape of a goat [Osiris or Arsaphes], Herakles a fawn, Hephaistos (Hephaestus) an ox [Ptah], and Leto a shrew mouse [Wadjet]. The rest of the gods each took on what transformations they could. When Zeus struck Typhon with a thunderbolt, Typhon, aflame hid himself and quenched the blaze in the sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zeus did not desist but piled the highest mountain, Aitna (Etna), on Typon and set Hephaistos on the peak as a guard. Having set up his anvils, he works his red hot blooms on Typhon's neck.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Antoninus Liberalis, Metamorphoses 28 (trans. Celoria)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you wish to find out more, Theoi Project, an invaluable online reference, has extensive information on [Typhon][1]. Wikipedia's [Typhon article][2] is also quite comprehensive.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.theoi.com/Gigante/Typhoeus.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhon" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19125" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5707" RevisionGUID="9d0c42c3-a99c-4d30-b00d-260f0c62e2b1" CreationDate="2019-05-31T10:16:02.037" UserId="5726" Text="Ares the god of war&#xD;&#xA;-------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although in literature Ares represents the violent and physical untamed aspect of war, the last thing you would think is that the god of war is a coward.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Homer's version of the character he was considered a coward (losing to Athena mostly) , shown in the Iliad screaming and retreating to Mount Olympus whenever he was wounded.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then looking at him darkly Zeus who gathers the clouds spoke to him:&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Do not sit beside me and whine, you double-faced liar.&#xD;&#xA;To me you are the most hateful of all gods who hold Olympus.&#xD;&#xA;Forever quarrelling is dear to your heart, wars and battles.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt; Iliad, Book 5, lines 798–891, 895–898 &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19126" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5708" RevisionGUID="4715dde4-1431-46ee-ad92-07a72b565c06" CreationDate="2019-05-31T21:32:37.640" UserId="6097" Text="He had three parents.&#xD;&#xA;The belief in the divinity of royal lines, in several ancient cultures of the region, was maintained by the concept that the king was possessed by a god (usually the head of the pantheon) on the night that he begot the next king.  In this way each king is both the son of his father (the last king) and a god.  &#xD;&#xA;In the case of Gilgamesh his mother was also a goddess.  So he had two parents who were gods and one parent who was mortal making him 2/3rds divine.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19127" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="5634" RevisionGUID="476ee75c-6059-4ffd-b6e6-b392ee422faf" CreationDate="2019-05-31T23:52:58.003" UserId="57" Comment="88" />
  <row Id="19128" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="5623" RevisionGUID="95acb3b4-45e3-49ed-84a8-9d7513f47bca" CreationDate="2019-05-31T23:53:02.707" UserId="57" Comment="87" />
  <row Id="19129" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5709" RevisionGUID="38c0d332-0f11-424f-9d93-4828a2c2a7ef" CreationDate="2019-06-01T05:29:06.957" UserId="2682" Text="**Helen's Many Voices**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Odyssey* 4.274-289 Menelaus recounts a story from the time that he and other leaders of the Greek forces at Troy were hiding in the famous decoy wooden horse which they used as a stratagem to win the Trojan War. He says that the Trojans used Helen to test whether the horse might in fact be concealing enemy combatants within it. The means of this test was for her to simulate the voices of the wives of the men hidden inside the giant horse. Reminding Helen of the occurrence, Menelaus says to her:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;You circled our hollow hiding-place, striking the surface, calling out&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the names of the Danaan captains, in the very voices of each of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Argives’ wives.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The trick was so convincing that both Menelaus and Diomedes &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;were ready to answer within, and leap out, but Odysseus restrained&#xD;&#xA;&gt; us, despite our eagerness. The rest of the Achaeans kept silent too,&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;although there was one warrior named Anticlus who had to be pinned down by Odysseus, who &quot;'clapped his strong hands over his mouth'&quot; until Helen left the scene.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anticlus is known only from this story, which Tryphiodorus expands upon in *The Taking of Ilios [Ilium]*, telling us that Odysseus had to apply so much strain upon Anticlus to keep him from giving the big plan away, that this warrior died there and then. The other chieftains mourned him quietly, &quot;with secret tears&quot;, and covered his corpse with a coverlet, hiding &quot;him away in the hollow flank of the horse&quot;, performing an instant and silent funeral!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are a few significantly remarkable elements in the story. The number of men hidden in the horse ranges from as low as twenty-three to as high as fifty (the standard figure landing roughly near the middle at forty). Helen must have known each of these men well enough to know their wives additionally in order to remember them all and have a ready reference-point to work from in order to imitate the women's voices as impeccably as the story tells us that she did.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only alternative to this that I can think of is that Helen somehow had the ability to spontaneously assume the voice of practically any woman that she wanted to, using perhaps... some kind of magic? Incidentally, in the same passage of the *Odyssey* from which we get the story (Lines 219-232 of Book 4), we are told that Helen has in her possession powerful healing drugs which can wipe away one's cares and sorrows for an entire day, which she had received as a gift from a certain Egyptian woman. Drugs and sorcery are, in cultures the world over, including in Greek myth, very closely associated (and in fact the words for &quot;drugs&quot; and &quot;witchcraft&quot; are the same in Ancient Greek).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**What is the source of Helen's stunning facility with vocal mimicry?** Did she spend a good chunk of her life honing her voice-acting skills (listener beware: she's not just a pretty face)? Or does the story mean for us to understand this as something more supernatural which not just anyone can achieve? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Stentor's Megaphonic Voice**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Iliad* 5.785-786 says that Stentor, the herald of the Greeks during the Trojan War, was &quot;bronze-voiced&quot;, his voice being louder than those of fifty other men. A couple of *Iliad* scholia say that he died after losing a shouting contest with the herald-god Hermes. This story seems to understand the character's description in the *Iliad* as something beyond mere hyperbole, considering that Stentor is in a position to compete with the god of message-relay himself in the use of his vocal chords. Or is there a more mundane way to interpret this?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;*Odyssey* quotes taken from A.S. Kline's [Poetry in &#xD;&#xA;   Translation](https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Odyssey4.php#anchor_Toc90267394)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;*The Taking of Ilios* quotes taken from *Oppian, Colluthus,&#xD;&#xA;   Tryphiodorus, with a Translation by A.W. Mair*. 1928. William&#xD;&#xA;   Heinemann Ltd, London, &amp; G.P. Putnam's Sons, New York&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19130" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5709" RevisionGUID="38c0d332-0f11-424f-9d93-4828a2c2a7ef" CreationDate="2019-06-01T05:29:06.957" UserId="2682" Text="Did Helen and Stentor have voice-related &quot;super-powers&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19131" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5709" RevisionGUID="38c0d332-0f11-424f-9d93-4828a2c2a7ef" CreationDate="2019-06-01T05:29:06.957" UserId="2682" Text="|greek|odyssey|trojan-war|iliad|odysseus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19132" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5706" RevisionGUID="430bd300-f5ee-408f-91fe-7b8534cf30d0" CreationDate="2019-06-01T06:33:52.127" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar, improved formatting &amp; tweaked some details" Text="***&gt;File Not Found!&lt;***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From what I've been able to find, there is no ancient source which tells such a story about Aidepsos (the commonly older transliteration of the town's name, which is Latinised as Aedepsus). It seems that this &quot;legend&quot; has been cobbled together from a random grab-bag created by eclectically appropriating a variety of sources talking about Herakles in relation to baths or hot springs in general as well as specifically in relation to *other* places *apart* from Aidepsos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Assorted References**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Athenaeus' *Deipnosophistai* 12.512, all hot springs which rise up out of the ground are said to be sacred to Herakles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Strabo's *Geographika* 9.4.2 says that there &quot;are the hot waters of Herakles&quot; at Aidepsos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the characters in Aristophanes' *Nephelai* (&quot;Clouds&quot;) asks, rhetorically, in Lines 1050-1052, &quot;Where did you ever see baths of Herakles that were cold?&quot; The *scholion* on this, in what has been labelled as Fragment 7 of Peisander (c. 600s/500s BC), tells us that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At Thermopylai [Thermopylae] the goddess grey-eyed Athena made hot bathing-spots for &#xD;&#xA;&gt; him along the edge of the sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From context the &quot;him&quot; is generally interpreted to be Herakles. This is referring, however, not to Aidepsos but to Thermopylai, which incidentally is roughly in the same neighbourhood but separated from Aidepsos by the Malian Gulf and several good stretches of land, with Aidepsos lying on Euboia [Euboea; *Evia*] Island and Thermopylai being on the Greek mainland. Hot springs are common in the region.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At this point Strabo does have more to say, in *Geographika* 9.4.13 (a little bit further down in the same chapter as the above-quoted passge), telling us that Thermopylai, meaning &quot;Hot Gates,&quot; is so named because &quot;there are hot waters near it which are honoured as sacred to Herakles&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Diodorus Siculus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The closest we get to the Edipsos legend in an ancient source is Diodorus Siculus, who refers to an event set in Sicily, quite some distance away from the Malian Gulf area(!). In his *Bibliotheka Historika* (&quot;Library of History&quot;) 4.23.1, he says that: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Upon his arrival in Sikelia [Sicily], Herakles desired to make the circuit of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the entire island and so set out from Pelorias in the direction of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eryx. While passing along the coast of the island, the myths relate,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Nymphs caused warm baths to gush forth so that he might refresh&#xD;&#xA;&gt; himself after the toil sustained in journeying. There are two of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; these, called respectively Himeraia [Himeraea] and Egestaia&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Egestaea], each of them having its name from the place where the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; baths are.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To go a bit deeper into the story we have to flip over to the next book, where, in 5.3.4, Athena becomes the patron goddess of Himera in Sicily. Here, the Nymphs, in order&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to find favour with Athena, caused the hot water springs to erupt and flow forth vigorously when Herakles visited the island, and the inhabitants&#xD;&#xA;&gt; consecrated a city to her and a tract of land which to this day is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; called Athena’s.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The *Souda***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only other information source to fall back onto is the 10th century AD encyclopaedia called the *Souda* [*Suda*; sometimes *Suidae*], which, for our purposes, helpfully fills in a few details.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In the article `Herakleios psora`, &quot;Herakleian itch,&quot; it says that&#xD;&#xA;   this is a particularly difficult sort of itch to treat, requiring &quot;Herakleian&quot;&#xD;&#xA;   baths, &quot;For Athena recommended Herakles many baths to cure his ills.&quot;&#xD;&#xA; - According to the `Thermopylai` entry of the *Souda*, &quot;Some call this&#xD;&#xA;   city Pylai [Pylae, &quot;Gates&quot;]. But Philaias [Philaeas] says that it is&#xD;&#xA;   called Thermopylai [&quot;Hot Gates&quot;], since Athena made hot baths for&#xD;&#xA;   Herakles there.&quot;&#xD;&#xA; - Finally, the article `Herakleia loutra`, &quot;Herakleian baths,&quot; says that this term means τὰ θερμά (*ta therma*,&#xD;&#xA;   &quot;hot ones&quot;), &quot;For Hephaistos [Hephaestus] gave them to Herakles as a&#xD;&#xA;   gift. From these comes the term *ta therma* [the 'hot {i.e. hot&#xD;&#xA;   *baths*}'].&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This last one seems to be the only reference anywhere to a link between Hephaistos and Herakles-baths. Athena is not mentioned in connection with him here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Summary**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As we see above, Diodorus Siculus appears to think it that was &quot;the Nymphs&quot; who were the agents of the creation of hot springs for Herakles on Athena's behalf, but the event does not even take place in Greece at all.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Geographically speaking the nearest we can get to the Edipsos legend mentioned by those websites is across the sea (and a decent chunk of Euboian promontory too) in Thermopylai, where none of our sources tells us anything about Athena requiring Hephaistos' assistance with her Herakleian baths project." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19133" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5709" RevisionGUID="ab5f86e8-a892-4e7d-9a5b-681c05e4f1ae" CreationDate="2019-06-01T09:07:41.943" UserId="2682" Comment="added info" Text="**Helen's Many Voices**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Odyssey* 4.274-289 Menelaus recounts a story from the time that he and other leaders of the Greek forces at Troy were hiding in the famous decoy wooden horse which they used as a stratagem to win the Trojan War. He says that the Trojans used Helen to test whether the horse might in fact be concealing enemy combatants within it. The means of this test was for her to simulate the voices of the wives of the men hidden inside the giant horse. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Reminding Helen of the occurrence, Menelaus says to her:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;You circled our hollow hiding-place, striking the surface, calling out&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the names of the Danaan captains, in the very voices of each of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Argives’ wives.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The trick was so convincing that both Menelaus and Diomedes &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;were ready to answer within, and leap out, but Odysseus restrained&#xD;&#xA;&gt; us, despite our eagerness. The rest of the Achaeans kept silent too,&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;although there was one warrior named Anticlus who had to be pinned down by Odysseus, who &quot;'clapped his strong hands over his mouth'&quot; until Helen left the scene.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anticlus is known only from this story, which Tryphiodorus expands upon in *The Taking of Ilios [Ilium]*, telling us that Odysseus had to apply so much strain upon Anticlus to keep him from giving the big plan away, that this warrior died there and then. The other chieftains mourned him quietly, &quot;with secret tears&quot;, and covered his corpse with a coverlet, hiding &quot;him away in the hollow flank of the horse&quot;, performing an instant and silent funeral!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are a few significantly remarkable elements in the story. The number of men hidden in the horse ranges from as low as twenty-three to as high as fifty (the standard figure landing roughly near the middle at forty).&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; Helen must have known each of these men well enough to, additionally, know their wives in order to remember them all and have a ready reference-point to work from in order to imitate the women's voices as impeccably as the story tells us that she did.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only alternative to this that I can think of is that Helen somehow had the ability to spontaneously assume the voice of practically any woman that she wanted to, using perhaps... some kind of magic? Incidentally, in the same passage of the *Odyssey* from which we get the story (Lines 219-232 of Book 4), we are told that Helen has in her possession powerful healing drugs which can wipe away one's cares and sorrows for an entire day, which she had received as a gift from a certain Egyptian woman. Drugs and sorcery are, in cultures the world over, including in Greek myth, very closely associated (and in fact the words for &quot;drugs&quot; and &quot;witchcraft&quot; are the same in Ancient Greek).&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**What is the source of Helen's stunning facility with vocal mimicry?** Did she spend a good chunk of her life honing her voice-acting skills (listener beware: she's not just a pretty face)? Or does the story mean for us to understand this as something more supernatural which not just anyone can achieve? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any subtle or obvious link between this and what comes later in the poem (Book 12), wherein Odysseus will encounter **the Sirens**, the monster sea-nymphs whose singing is so beautiful that it causes sailors to wreck their ships and lose their lives upon the rocks of the Sirens' island as they steer towards them? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Paralleling Helen's prodigious knowledge of the Greek soldiers' wives, the Sirens, who presumably have never met Odysseus before, see his ship approaching in the distance and beckon him specifically by name in their song. Certainly the Sirens are supernatural creatures; is Helen just as &quot;super&quot; in a similar vein?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Stentor's Megaphonic Voice**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Iliad* 5.785-786 says that Stentor, the herald of the Greeks during the Trojan War, was &quot;bronze-voiced&quot;, his voice being louder than those of fifty other men. A couple of *Iliad* scholia say that he died after losing a shouting contest with the herald-god Hermes. This story seems to understand the character's description in the *Iliad* as something beyond mere hyperbole, considering that Stentor is in a position to compete with the god of message-relay himself in the use of his vocal chords. Or is there a more mundane way to interpret this?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Apollodorus' *Epitome* 5.14, which supplies us the figure of fifty, also cites the *Little Iliad* as numbering the hidden men at three thousand(!), which to me sounds particularly implausible (even in this fantastical setting).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. For some reason this section of the *Odyssey* passage is careful to point out that the soil from which Helen's gift was derived, in addition to being rich in curative herbs, contains harmful ones as well.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;*Odyssey* quotes taken from A.S. Kline's [Poetry in &#xD;&#xA;   Translation](https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Odyssey4.php#anchor_Toc90267394)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;*The Taking of Ilios* quotes taken from *Oppian, Colluthus,&#xD;&#xA;   Tryphiodorus, with a Translation by A.W. Mair*. 1928. William&#xD;&#xA;   Heinemann Ltd, London, &amp; G.P. Putnam's Sons, New York&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19134" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5710" RevisionGUID="3b0660d3-ce7f-42d2-94e7-c053cacaf756" CreationDate="2019-06-01T13:21:06.857" UserId="2682" Text="The Actual Duration of the War&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Towards the end of the *Iliad*, whose action takes place in the tenth and final year of the Trojan War, Helen says (in Line 765 of Book 24) that &quot;this is now the twentieth year&quot; since she left Lakedaimon [Lacedaemon] with Paris. &quot;The words have puzzled the Scholiasts and commentators&quot;&lt;sup&gt;✭&lt;/sup&gt; for centuries because one might have expected the duration to be closer to the length of the war, accounting for only half that amount of time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Having been lost in ancient times, the portion of the work attributed to **Apollodorus**, entitled the *Epitome*, was discovered in 1891, and it contains a full explanation for this duration. For the Greeks the war had indeed lasted about twenty years. They had landed in Troas only nine years prior to the beginning of the *Iliad* and engaged the Trojans immediately, however, they had first mustered up their forces to head for their enemy's territory in Asia eight years *before* their arrival in Troas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not knowing how to get there, combined with additional shenanigans that transpired, they landed in Mysia, mistakenly thinking that that was Troas and eventually all ended up back home in Greece. They only managed to reassemble eight years after that debacle, which is narrated in *Epitome* 3.17-19ff. Prior to the first assembly they had spent two years making preparations to build their army. So 2 years of prep + 8 years of reorientation &amp; *re*-prep + 10 years of combat = Helen's 20 years in the *Iliad*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Akhilleus' [Achilles'] Age&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Just before the chaos at the first gathering ensues, the ***Epitome*** tells us (**3.16**):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So Agamemnon in person was in command of the whole army, and Akhilleus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was admiral, being **fifteen years old.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Iliad* mentions nothing specific about the ages of Akhilleus and Paris, but the *Epitome* does inform us of what Akhilleus' age is when the timeline is set at eight years before the beginning of the siege of Troy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;15 + 8 = 23. So Akhilleus is about **twenty-three years old** when the Greek army lands in Troas. Akhilleus dies in the last year of the war 10 years later = about Age **33**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This also accounts for the pesky issue of the fact that Akhilleus' son Neoptolemos [Neoptolemus] also arrives at Troy in the same year, evidently a full-grown warrior of a man! If Neoptolemos was born in the same year of the first army gathering, or even the year after that (allowing that he could've been born in his father's absence), he would be roughly 17 or 18 years old when he helped to take Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Paris's Age (??)&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Paris is somewhat more problematic, mostly because of the only story told of the childhood of his father Priamos [Priam]. Herakles [Hercules] had killed Priamos' father Laomedon, who at the time was king of Troy. In his stead, Herakles installed Priamos, who was then just a boy, onto the throne, mercifully sparing his life. Hyginus' *Fabulae* 89 goes so far as to say that Priamos was a literal *baby* (*infanti*) when this happened.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Fast-forward to the last year of the Trojan War: Book 24 of the *Iliad* repeatedly tells us that at this point Priamos is a significantly elderly man. Speaking of Akhilleus' father Peleus in Lines 485ff, Priamos says that he belongs to the same generation as him, or that his &quot;years are even as mine, on the grievous threshold of old age.&quot; This implies that Priamos and Peleus are roughly the same age (perhaps with a maximum age difference of ten years, let's say[?]). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Peleus' brother Telamon had assisted Herakles in the attack upon Troy which resulted in Priamos becoming king. So if Peleus and Priamos are about the same age, and Telamon was a full-grown fighting-man when Priamos was a baby, that would mean Peleus has to be quite a bit younger than Telamon (say by 10 years), which is not implausible. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ancient mythographers, however, seem to have thought that they must have been closer in age than that. In his 1921 English translation of Apollodorus' *Bibliotheka*, James George Frazer takes notes of a different account of the story in which&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;it was not Telamon but his brother Peleus who went with Herakles&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to the siege of Troy. The poets were not consistent on this point.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thus, while in two passages (Pind. *N.* 4.25(40); Pind. *I.*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 6.27(39)ff.) Pindar assigns to Telamon the glory of the adventure, in another he transfers it to Peleus (quoted by the Scholiast on *Eur.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Andr.* 796; Pind. Fr. 172). Euripides was equally inconsistent. See&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his Eur. *Tro.* 804ff. (Telamon), contrasted with his Eur. *And.*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 796ff. (Peleus).&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So maybe when Priamos says that he and Peleus are of the same generation he simply means that old age has homogenised them into the same category.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going by most accounts, Herakles participates for at least some of the expedition of the Argonauts, among whom are both Peleus and Telamon. In Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautika* 1, Akhilleus is at least a baby if not a bit older, being carried in the arms of the wife of the Centaur Kheiron [Chiron], at the beginning of the Argonautic mission.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Several of Herakles' sons participate in the Trojan War, on both sides thereof. They all seem to be fairly young men at the time, perhaps between the ages of 20 and 45, at any rate a generation younger that old Priamos (and Peleus), and thus in the same generation as Paris.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only way to solve this, that I can see, is to grant Priamos fatherhood over Paris at as young an age as possible (such as 15 or 16 like with Akhilleus and Neoptolemos) and to say that Herakles, Peleus and Telamon each had *their* children (Telamon's son Aias [Ajax] is a famous participant in the war too) a great deal later in life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps then the Argonauts' mission took place only about 15 years after Herakles' attack on Troy but at this point we run into the problems of picturing the Argonauts as men no longer quite in their prime and also Herakles' lifespan is starting to run a little bit long. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ultimately we would also have to make it so that Peleus and Thetis get married maybe around the time Priamos is born, or when he is still quite young, and this means that the tussle between Hera, Athena and Aphrodite over Eris' golden apple would be ongoing for at least 30 years (probably more) before Paris is around 15 and sets in motion the events leading up to the war. It would also mean that it is about 15 years before Thetis gives birth to Akhilleus so that he and Paris are about the same age (rather than Akhilleus being *older* than the *Iliad*'s aged Priamos!).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we could tell when precisely (or even broadly) the Argonauts begin their voyage (and thus when Akhilleus is at least a few months old) in relation to when Herakles attacks Troy (and Priamos is a little boy if not an infant) it would solve most of the puzzle. In lieu of that, we have all these puzzle pieces floating around, and not much of a map by which to fit them together.     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;✭ &lt;sub&gt;Footnote 4 on p. 187 of *Apollodorus: The Library, with an English Translation, in Two Volumes by Sir James George Frazer*. 1921. William Heinemann, London, &amp; G.P. Putnam's Sons, New York&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19135" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5711" RevisionGUID="e58a4949-91e0-40b4-9c54-c56c9f75be2e" CreationDate="2019-06-01T15:40:35.410" UserId="5987" Text="I don't know much about Hinduism and the details of Indian history, but I feel that in India it is very common to nationalize foreign religions, beginning with the indianization of Sumerian deities, then with the indianization of Taoism that resulted in Buddhism, and then with the indianization of Islam which resulted in Sikhism. &#xD;&#xA;I thought this was hidden due to religious and nationalist issues but then I read that the Advaita Vedanta states that the same truth is described in different ways in all religions, that they all lead to the same end but were mixed with non-truth , and that therefore they must extract this truth present in all religions and mix with their own beliefs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So my question is, this thought that all religions are true is shared in other Hindu schools? Do Indians openly adopt and syncretize foreign religions?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;PS: I'm sorry if I'm not on the right site." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19136" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5711" RevisionGUID="e58a4949-91e0-40b4-9c54-c56c9f75be2e" CreationDate="2019-06-01T15:40:35.410" UserId="5987" Text="Do Indians openly adopt and syncretize foreign religions?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19137" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5711" RevisionGUID="e58a4949-91e0-40b4-9c54-c56c9f75be2e" CreationDate="2019-06-01T15:40:35.410" UserId="5987" Text="|comparative|origins|hindu|india|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19138" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5711" RevisionGUID="cbb7e36a-b9e7-48b9-88b6-6557b6a79ed9" CreationDate="2019-06-01T16:08:56.783" UserId="5987" Comment="deleted 43 characters in body" Text="I don't know much about Hinduism and the details of Indian history, but I feel that in India it is very common to nationalize foreign religions, beginning with the indianization of Sumerian deities, then with the indianization of Taoism that resulted in Buddhism, and then with the indianization of Islam which resulted in Sikhism. &#xD;&#xA;I thought this was hidden due to religious and nationalist issues but then I read that the Advaita Vedanta states that the same truth is described in different ways in all religions, that they all lead to the same end but were mixed with non-truth , and that therefore they must extract this truth present in all religions and mix with their own beliefs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So my question is, this thought that all religions are true is shared in other Hindu schools? Do Indians openly adopt and syncretize foreign religions?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19142" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5710" RevisionGUID="5752e2a7-6f00-4792-9f8f-fc02041f145e" CreationDate="2019-06-01T19:18:20.250" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; tweaked some details" Text="The Actual Duration of the War&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Towards the end of the *Iliad*, whose action takes place in the tenth and final year of the Trojan War, Helen says (in Line 765 of Book 24) that &quot;this is now the twentieth year&quot; since she left Lakedaimon [Lacedaemon] with Paris. &quot;The words have puzzled the Scholiasts and commentators&quot;&lt;sup&gt;✭&lt;/sup&gt; for centuries because one might have expected the duration mentioned by her to be closer to the length of the war; but the war's length accounts for only half the amount of time she is talking about.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Having been lost in ancient times, the portion of the work attributed to **Apollodorus** entitled the *Epitome*, was discovered in 1891, and it contains a full explanation for this duration. For the Greeks the war had indeed lasted about twenty years. They had landed in Troas only nine years prior to the beginning of the *Iliad* and had engaged the Trojans immediately. However, they had first mustered up their forces to head for their enemy's territory in Asia eight years *before* their arrival in Troas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not knowing how to get there, combined with additional shenanigans that transpired, they landed in Mysia, mistakenly thinking that that was Troas and eventually all ended up back home in Greece. They only managed to reassemble eight years after that debacle, which is narrated in *Epitome* 3.17-19ff. Prior to the first assembly they had spent two years making preparations to build their army. So 2 years of prep + 8 years of reorientation &amp; *re*-prep + 10 years of combat = Helen's 20 years as mentioned in the *Iliad*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Akhilleus' [Achilles'] Age&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Just before the chaos at the first gathering ensues, the ***Epitome*** tells us (**3.16**):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So Agamemnon in person was in command of the whole army, and Akhilleus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was admiral, being **fifteen years old.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Iliad* mentions nothing specific about the ages of Akhilleus and Paris, but the *Epitome* does inform us of how old Akhilleus' is when the timeline is set at eight years before the beginning of the siege of Troy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;15 + 8 = 23. So Akhilleus is about **twenty-three years old** when the Greek army lands in Troas. Akhilleus dies in the last year of the war 10 years later = about Age **33**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This also accounts for the pesky issue of the fact that Akhilleus' son Neoptolemos [Neoptolemus] arrives at Troy in the same year that the city falls, evidently a full-grown warrior of a man! If Neoptolemos was born in the same year of the first army gathering, or even the year after that (allowing that he could've been born in his father's absence), he would be roughly 17 or 18 years old when he helped to take Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Paris's Age (??)&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Paris is somewhat more problematic, mostly because of the only story told of the childhood of his father Priamos [Priam]. Herakles [Hercules] had killed Priamos' father Laomedon, who at the time was king of Troy. In his stead, Herakles installed Priamos, who was then just a boy, onto the throne. Hyginus' *Fabulae* 89 goes so far as to say that Priamos was a literal *baby* (*infanti*) when this happened.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Fast-forward to the last year of the Trojan War: Book 24 of the *Iliad* repeatedly tells us that at this point Priamos is a significantly elderly man. Speaking of Akhilleus' father Peleus in Lines 485ff, Priamos says that he belongs to the same generation as him, or that his &quot;years are even as mine, on the grievous threshold of old age.&quot; This implies that Priamos and Peleus are roughly the same age (perhaps with a maximum age difference of ten years, let's say[?]). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Peleus' brother Telamon had assisted Herakles in the attack upon Troy which resulted in Priamos becoming king. So if Peleus and Priamos are about the same age, and Telamon was a full-grown fighting-man when Priamos was a baby, that would mean Peleus has to be quite a bit younger than Telamon (say by 10 years), which is not implausible. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ancient mythographers, however, seem to have thought that they must have been closer in age than that. In his 1921 English translation of Apollodorus' *Bibliotheka*, James George Frazer takes notes of a different account of the story in which&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;it was not Telamon but his brother Peleus who went with Herakles&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to the siege of Troy. The poets were not consistent on this point.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thus, while in two passages (Pind. *N.* 4.25(40); Pind. *I.*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 6.27(39)ff.) Pindar assigns to Telamon the glory of the adventure, in another he transfers it to Peleus (quoted by the Scholiast on *Eur.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Andr.* 796; Pind. Fr. 172). Euripides was equally inconsistent. See&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his Eur. *Tro.* 804ff. (Telamon), contrasted with his Eur. *And.*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 796ff. (Peleus).&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So maybe when Priamos says that he and Peleus are of the same generation he simply means that old age has homogenised them into the same category despite however great their age difference might be.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going by most accounts, Herakles participates for at least some of the expedition of the Argonauts, among whom are both Peleus and Telamon. In Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautika* 1, at the beginning of the Argonautic mission, Akhilleus is at least a baby if not a bit older, being carried in the arms of the wife of the Centaur Kheiron [Chiron].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Several of Herakles' sons participate in the Trojan War, on both sides thereof. They all seem to be fairly young men at the time, perhaps between the ages of 20 and 45, at any rate a generation younger that old Priamos (and Peleus), and thus in the same generation as Paris.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only way to solve this, that I can see, is to grant Priamos fatherhood over Paris at as young an age as possible (such as 15 or 16 like with Akhilleus and Neoptolemos) and to say that Herakles, Peleus and Telamon each had *their* children (Telamon's son Aias [Ajax] is a famous participant in the war too) a great deal later in life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps then the Argonauts' mission took place only about 15 years after Herakles' attack on Troy but at this point we run into the problems of picturing the Argonauts as men no longer quite in their prime and also Herakles' lifespan is starting to run a little bit long. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ultimately we would also have to make it so that Peleus and Thetis get married maybe around the time Priamos is born, or when he is still quite young, and this means that the tussle between Hera, Athena and Aphrodite over Eris' golden apple would be ongoing for at least 30 years (probably more) before Paris is around 15 and sets in motion the events leading up to the war. It would also mean that it is about 15 years before Thetis gives birth to Akhilleus so that he and Paris are about the same age (rather than Akhilleus being *older* than the *Iliad*'s aged Priamos!).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we could tell when precisely (or even broadly) the Argonauts begin their voyage (and thus when Akhilleus is at least a few months old) in relation to when Herakles attacks Troy (and Priamos is a little boy or an infant) it would solve most of the puzzle. In lieu of that, we have all these puzzle pieces floating around, and not much of a map by which to fit them together.     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;✭ &lt;sub&gt;Footnote 4 on p. 187 of *Apollodorus: The Library, with an English Translation, in Two Volumes by Sir James George Frazer*. 1921. William Heinemann, London, &amp; G.P. Putnam's Sons, New York&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19143" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5713" RevisionGUID="c8e1fa85-b964-4e3e-b5c4-b899741cce9f" CreationDate="2019-06-01T21:01:38.827" UserId="4142" Text="&lt;a href=&quot;https://ia802901.us.archive.org/5/items/symbolismofcolou00conriala/symbolismofcolou00conriala.pdf&quot;&gt;Ellen Conroy *The Symbolism of Color*&lt;/a&gt; (1921) is a popular book on the topic and has been reissued.&#xD;&#xA;A more serious approach would be &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Sahlins&quot;&gt;Marshall Sahlins&lt;/a&gt; (1976) *Colors and Cultures*,  Semiotica, Vol.16, p.1–22. This leads into the contemporary debate about naming/distinguishing colors which has a long history. In a nutshell: it is culturally relativistic, so only 'field studies' or concrete sources can present the variants of color symbolism.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Pastoureau&quot;&gt;Michel_Pastoureau&lt;/a&gt;, a medievist, has a number of books on colors in the (medieval) Western world, some of them available only in French. I just saw (in google books) another book with the title *The Symbolism of Color* by Faber Birren (1988).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think the topic fascinating when you step beyond a naive universalism.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19144" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5710" RevisionGUID="65b1beb8-3787-4457-8a11-bf6eb4e2ff88" CreationDate="2019-06-01T22:27:54.793" UserId="2682" Comment="adjusted info" Text="The Actual Duration of the War&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Towards the end of the *Iliad*, whose action takes place in the tenth and final year of the Trojan War, Helen says (in Line 765 of Book 24) that &quot;this is now the twentieth year&quot; since she left Lakedaimon [Lacedaemon] with Paris. &quot;The words have puzzled the Scholiasts and commentators&quot;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; for centuries because one might have expected the duration mentioned by her to be closer to the length of the war; but the war's length accounts for only half the amount of time she is talking about.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Having been lost in ancient times, the portion of the work attributed to **Apollodorus** entitled the *Epitome*, was discovered in 1891, and it contains a full explanation for this duration. For the Greeks the war had indeed lasted about twenty years. They had landed in Troas only nine years prior to the beginning of the *Iliad* and had engaged the Trojans immediately. However, they had first mustered up their forces to head for their enemy's territory in Asia eight years *before* their arrival in Troas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not knowing how to get there, combined with additional shenanigans that transpired, they landed in Mysia, mistakenly thinking that that was Troas and eventually all ended up back home in Greece. They only managed to reassemble eight years after that debacle, which is narrated in *Epitome* 3.17-19ff. Prior to the first assembly they had spent two years making preparations to build their army. So 2 years of prep + 8 years of reorientation &amp; *re*-prep + 10 years of combat = Helen's 20 years as mentioned in the *Iliad*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Akhilleus' [Achilles'] Age&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Just before the chaos at the first gathering ensues, the ***Epitome*** tells us (**3.16**):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So Agamemnon in person was in command of the whole army, and Akhilleus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was admiral, being **fifteen years old.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Iliad* mentions nothing specific about the ages of Akhilleus and Paris, but the *Epitome* does inform us of how old Akhilleus' is when the timeline is set at eight years before the beginning of the siege of Troy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;15 + 8 = 23. So Akhilleus is about **twenty-three years old** when the Greek army lands in Troas. Akhilleus dies in the last year of the war 10 years later = about Age **33**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This also accounts for the pesky issue of the fact that Akhilleus' son Neoptolemos [Neoptolemus] arrives at Troy in the same year that the city falls, evidently a full-grown warrior of a man! If Neoptolemos was born in the same year of the first army gathering, or even the year after that (allowing that he could've been born in his father's absence), he would be roughly 17 or 18 years old when he helped to take Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Paris's Age&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By splicing together a variety of information nuggets from different sources, I believe we can calculate it so that Paris works out to be about seven years older than Akhilleus, if not more. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Book 24 of the *Iliad* repeatedly tells us that in the last year of the war Paris's father the Trojan king Priamos [Priam] is a significantly elderly man. Speaking of Akhilleus' father Peleus in Lines 485ff, Priamos says that he belongs to the same generation as him, or that his &quot;years are even as mine, on the grievous threshold of old age.&quot; This implies that Priamos and Peleus are roughly the same age. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Many years previously, Priamos' father Laomedon was king of Troy. Laomedon had promised to pay the hero Herakles [Hercules] for rescuing his daughter Hesione from a sea-monster but after the rescue was accomplished he refused to pay. Years later Herakles sacked Troy, killing Laomedon and all his sons except Priamos, who was spared because he alone among his brothers &quot;had opposed his father and had counseled him to&quot; pay Herakles. And this is how Priamos succeeded his father as king. So goes the account in Diodorus Siculus' *Bibliotheka Historika* 4.32.&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roman writers like Seneca and Hyginus make Priamos out to be a lot younger at the time of Herakles' attack, Seneca saying that he was a little boy (in his *Troades*), and Hyginus going so far as to call him a literal baby (*infanti*) in *Fabulae* 89. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautika* 1, Akhilleus [Achilles] is a baby or a young child at the beginning of the expedition of the Argonauts, among whose number was Herakles (for at least part of the journey). In the *Bibliotheka Historika* this implicitly takes place at least a few years before Herakles' attack on Troy (4.15.4).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we go with the evidently older, Greek version of Priamos' age at the time of Herakles' attack on Troy (as opposed to what we read in the *Troades* and *Fabulae*), we can avoid the tricky situation of having Akhilleus be *older* than (or even about the same age as) the *Iliad*'s aged Priamos, as this would make him (obviously impossibly) older or the same age as his own father Peleus!    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Calculating...&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This would mean that Akhilleus was born many years after his parents' wedding. Because the chronology that we have of Herakles' career, provided mostly by the *Bibliotheka Historika*, whichever way we cut it, Paris *must* be born before Herakles attacks Troy in order for the rest of the story to work. Assuming that Paris is about 20 years when he takes Helen from Lakedaimon, we can break it down as follows. (The years are numbered with Akhilleus' birth as the anchor-point so that Year 0 is when Akhilleus is born.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**`-7 years` Birth of Paris** (whose grandfather Laomedon is still king of Troy). &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;Also: wedding of Peleus &amp; Thetis? (It would be very poetically resonant if Paris, a major cause of the war, is born in this same year!)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**`0 years` Birth of Akhilleus**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`6 years`&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles' 8th *athlos* (labour/ task): to fetch the mares of Diomedes of Bistonia.&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;Also: **the voyage of the *Argo***.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When this *athlos* {*i.e. the 8th one*} was finished Herakles sailed forth with Iason&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Jason] as a member of the expedition {*of the Argonauts*} to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Colchis to get the Golden Fleece.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*Bibliotheka Historika* 4.15.4&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the same year Akhilleus is a young child under the tutelage of the Centaur Kheiron [Chiron] (Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautika* 1.555-558).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Later, same year:* Herakles' 9th *athlos*: to fetch the girdle of the Queen of the Amazons, after which he rescues Paris's aunt Hesione from Poseidon's sea-monster.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`8 years` Herakles attacks Troy &amp; kills Laomedon. Priamos becomes king of Troy. (Paris is 15.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`10 years` Death of Herakles(?).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`13 years` Paris (Age 20) takes Helen to Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`15 years` Greek army assembles for the first time in prep for the Trojan War. (Paris is 22.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**`23 years` Siege of Troy** begins, for the sake of retrieving Helen. (**Paris is 30**.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`33 years`  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Akhilleus dies; Neoptolemos lands in Troy; Priamos dies; the city burns. **Paris** also **dies, Age 40**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Footnote 4 on p. 187 of *Apollodorus: The Library, with an English Translation, in Two Volumes by Sir James George Frazer*. 1921. William Heinemann, London, &amp; G.P. Putnam's Sons, New York&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. Homer does not seem to know anything about Herakles having killed Priamos' brothers since they are all alive and among the elders of Troy during the Trojan War in the *Iliad*.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. According to the &quot;Achilles&quot; article of William Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology (1888), &quot;From his sixth year he fought with lions and bears, and caught stags without dogs or nets.&quot; This presumably is taking place during his training with Kheiron.&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19145" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5710" RevisionGUID="ed86b092-cd56-4eee-9757-3eeb01088145" CreationDate="2019-06-02T00:14:05.030" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; added info" Text="The Actual Duration of the War&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Towards the end of the *Iliad*, whose action takes place in the tenth and final year of the Trojan War, Helen says (in Line 765 of Book 24) that &quot;this is now the twentieth year&quot; since she departed from Lakedaimon [Lacedaemon] with Paris. &quot;The words have puzzled the Scholiasts and commentators&quot;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; for centuries because one might have expected the duration mentioned by her to be closer to the length of the war; but the war's length accounts for only half of the amount of time she's talking about.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Having been lost in ancient times, the portion of the work attributed to **Apollodorus** entitled the *Epitome* was discovered in 1891, and it contains a full explanation for this duration. For the Greeks the war had indeed lasted about twenty years. They had landed in Troas only nine years prior to the beginning of the *Iliad* and had engaged the Trojans immediately. However, they had first mustered up their forces to head for their enemy's territory in Asia eight years *before* their arrival in Troas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not really knowing their way there, combined with additional shenanigans that transpired, they landed in Mysia, mistakenly thinking that that was Troas, and eventually all ended up back home in Greece. They only managed to reassemble eight years after that debacle, which is narrated in *Epitome* 3.17-19ff. Prior to the first assembly, they had spent two years making preparations to build their army. So 2 years of prep + 8 years of reorientation &amp; *re*-prep + 10 years of combat = Helen's 20 years as mentioned in the *Iliad*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Akhilleus' [Achilles'] Age&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Just before the chaos at the first gathering ensues, the ***Epitome*** tells us (**3.16**):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So Agamemnon in person was in command of the whole army, and Akhilleus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was admiral, being **fifteen years old.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Iliad* mentions nothing specific about the ages of Akhilleus and Paris, but the *Epitome* does inform us of how old Akhilleus' is when the timeline is set at eight years before the beginning of the siege of Troy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;15 + 8 = 23. So Akhilleus is about **twenty-three years old** when the Greek army lands in Troas. Akhilleus dies in the last year of the war a decade later = about Age **33**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This also accounts for the pesky issue of the fact that Akhilleus' son Neoptolemos [Neoptolemus] arrives at Troy in the same year that the city falls, by then evidently a full-grown warrior of a man! If Neoptolemos was born in the same year of the first army gathering, or even the year after that (allowing that he could've been born in his father's absence), he would be roughly 17 or 18 years old when he helped to take Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Paris's Age&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By splicing together a variety of information nuggets from different sources, I believe we can calculate it so that Paris works out to be about seven years older than Akhilleus, if not more. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Iliad* 24 repeatedly tells us that in the last year of the war Paris's father the Trojan king Priamos [Priam] is a significantly elderly man. Speaking of Akhilleus' father Peleus in Lines 485ff, Priamos says that he belongs to the same generation as him (going by A.S. Kline's translation, on his website [Poetry in Translation](https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad24.php#anchor_Toc239246517)), or that his &quot;years are even as mine, on the grievous threshold of old age&quot; (Augustus Taber Murray's 1924 translation). This implies that Priamos and Peleus are roughly the same age. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Many years previously, Priamos' father Laomedon was king of Troy. Laomedon had promised to pay the hero Herakles [Hercules] for rescuing his daughter Hesione from a sea-monster but then he swindled Herakles out of the promised reward. Years later Herakles sacked Troy, killing Laomedon and all his sons except Priamos, who was spared because he alone among his brothers &quot;had opposed his father and had counselled him to&quot; pay Herakles. This is how Priamos succeeded his father as king, according to Diodorus Siculus' *Bibliotheka Historika* 4.32.&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roman writers like Seneca and Hyginus make Priamos out to be a lot younger at the time of Herakles' attack, Seneca saying that he was a little boy (in his *Troades*), and Hyginus going so far as to call him a literal baby (*infanti*) in *Fabulae* 89. In Seneca's *Troades* 718-735 Herakles seems to spare Priamos out of pity for his tears and tender age. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautika* 1, Akhilleus [Achilles] is a baby or a young child at the beginning of the expedition of the Argonauts, among whose number is Herakles (for part of the journey). In the *Bibliotheka Historika* this implicitly takes place at least a few years before Herakles' attack on Troy (4.15.4).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we go with the evidently older, Greek version of Priamos' age at the time of Herakles' attack on Troy (as opposed to what we find in Seneca and Hyginus), we can avoid the tricky situation of having Akhilleus be *older* than (or even about the same age as) the *Iliad*'s aged Priamos, as this would (absurdly) make him older or the same age as his own father Peleus!    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Calculating...&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With the chronology that we have of Herakles' career, provided mostly by the *Bibliotheka Historika*, it seems that Paris has to be born before Herakles attacks Troy in order for the rest of the story to work. Assuming that Paris is about 20 years old when he takes Helen from Lakedaimon, we can break it down as follows. (The years are numbered with Akhilleus' birth as the anchor-point so that Year 0 is when Akhilleus is born.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**`-7 years` Birth of Paris**. (His grandfather Laomedon is still king of Troy). &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;Also: wedding of Peleus &amp; Thetis? (It would be rather poetically resonant if Paris, a major cause of the war, is born in this same year.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**`0 years` Birth of Akhilleus**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`6 years`&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles' 8th *athlos* (labour/ task): to fetch the mares of Diomedes of Bistonia.&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;Also: **the voyage of the *Argo***.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When this *athlos* {*i.e. the 8th one*} was finished Herakles sailed forth with Iason&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Jason] as a member of the expedition {*of the Argonauts*} to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Colchians to get the Golden Fleece.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*Bibliotheka Historika* 4.15.4&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the same year Akhilleus is a young child under the tutelage of the Centaur Kheiron [Chiron].  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;(Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautika* 1.555-558)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Later, same year:* Herakles' 9th *athlos*: to fetch the girdle of the Amazon queen, after which he rescues Paris's aunt Hesione from Poseidon's sea-monster.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`8 years` Herakles attacks Troy &amp; kills Laomedon. Priamos becomes king of Troy. (Paris is 15.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`9 years` ? Paris meets Hera, Athena &amp; Aphrodite &amp; awards Eris's golden apple to Aphrodite? (The goddesses would have been squabbling for 16 years at this point = Paris's age.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`10 years` Death of Herakles(?).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`13 years` Paris (Age 20) takes Helen to Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`15 years` Greek army assembles for the first time in prep for the Trojan War. (Paris is 22.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**`23 years` Siege of Troy** begins, for the sake of retrieving Helen. (**Paris is 30**.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`33 years`  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Akhilleus dies; Neoptolemos lands in Troy; Priamos dies; the city burns. **Paris** also **dies, Age 40**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Footnote 4 on p. 187 of *Apollodorus: The Library, with an English Translation, in Two Volumes by Sir James George Frazer*. 1921. William Heinemann, London, &amp; G.P. Putnam's Sons, New York&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. Homer does not seem to know anything about Herakles having killed Priamos' brothers since they are all alive and among the elders of Troy during the Trojan War in the *Iliad*.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. According to the &quot;Achilles&quot; article of William Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology (1888), &quot;From his sixth year he fought with lions and bears, and caught stags without dogs or nets.&quot; This presumably is taking place during his training with Kheiron.&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19146" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5710" RevisionGUID="12b51e94-06ed-4774-ab52-2a49ec6dfdb7" CreationDate="2019-06-02T08:03:22.563" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; added info" Text="The Actual Duration of the War&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Towards the end of the *Iliad*, whose action takes place in the tenth and final year of the Trojan War, Helen says (in Line 765 of Book 24) that &quot;this is now the twentieth year&quot; since she departed from Lakedaimon [Lacedaemon] with Paris. &quot;The words have puzzled the Scholiasts and commentators&quot;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; for centuries because one might have expected the duration mentioned by her to be closer to the length of the war; but the war's length accounts for only half of the amount of time she's talking about.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Having been lost in ancient times, the portion of the work attributed to **Apollodorus** entitled the *Epitome* was discovered in 1891, and it contains a full explanation for this duration. For the Greeks the war had indeed lasted about twenty years. They had landed in Troas only nine years prior to the beginning of the *Iliad* and had engaged the Trojans immediately. However, they had first mustered up their forces to head for their enemy's territory in Asia eight years *before* their arrival in Troas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not really knowing their way there, combined with additional shenanigans that transpired, they landed in Mysia, mistakenly thinking that that was Troas, and eventually all ended up back home in Greece. They only managed to reassemble eight years after that debacle, which is narrated in *Epitome* 3.17-19ff. Prior to the first assembly, they had spent two years making preparations to build their army. So 2 years of prep + 8 years of reorientation &amp; *re*-prep + 10 years of combat = Helen's 20 years as mentioned in the *Iliad*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Akhilleus' [Achilles'] Age&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Just before the chaos at the first gathering ensues, the ***Epitome*** tells us (**3.16**):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So Agamemnon in person was in command of the whole army, and Akhilleus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was admiral, being **fifteen years old.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Iliad* mentions nothing so specific about the ages of Akhilleus and Paris, but the *Epitome* does inform us of how old Akhilleus is when the timeline is set at eight years before the beginning of the siege of Troy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;15 + 8 = 23. So Akhilleus is about **twenty-three years old** when the Greek army lands in Troas. Akhilleus dies in the last year of the war a decade later = about Age **33**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This also accounts for the pesky issue of the fact that Akhilleus' son Neoptolemos [Neoptolemus] arrives at Troy in the same year that the city falls, by then evidently a full-grown warrior of a man! If Neoptolemos was born in the same year of the first army gathering, or even the year after that (allowing that he could've been born in his father's absence), he would be roughly 17 or 18 years old when he helped to take Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Paris's Age&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By splicing together a variety of information nuggets from different sources, I believe we can calculate it so that Paris works out to be about seven years older than Akhilleus, if not more. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Iliad* 24 repeatedly tells us that in the last year of the war Paris's father the Trojan king Priamos [Priam] is a significantly elderly man. Speaking of Akhilleus' father Peleus in Lines 485ff, Priamos says that he belongs to the same generation as him (going by A.S. Kline's translation, on his website [Poetry in Translation](https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad24.php#anchor_Toc239246517)), or that his &quot;years are even as mine, on the grievous threshold of old age&quot; (Augustus Taber Murray's 1924 translation). This has to mean that Priamos and Peleus are roughly the same age. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Many years previously, Priamos' father Laomedon was king of Troy. Laomedon had promised to pay the hero Herakles [Hercules] for rescuing his daughter Hesione from a sea-monster but then he swindled Herakles out of the promised reward. Consequently, after some years had elapsed, Herakles returned and sacked Troy, killing Laomedon and all his sons except Priamos, who was spared because he alone among his brothers &quot;had opposed his father and had counselled him to&quot; pay Herakles. This is how Priamos succeeded his father as king according to Diodorus Siculus' *Bibliotheka Historika* 4.32.&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roman writers like Seneca and Hyginus make Priamos out to be a lot younger at the time of Herakles' attack, Seneca saying that he was a little boy (*Troades* 718-735), and Hyginus going so far as to call him a literal baby (*infanti*) in *Fabulae* 89. In Seneca's *Troades*, Herakles seems to spare Priamos out of pity for his tears and his tender age. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautika* 1, Akhilleus [Achilles] is a baby or a young child at the beginning of the expedition of the Argonauts, among whose number is Herakles. In the *Bibliotheka Historika* this implicitly takes place at least a few years before Herakles' attack on Troy (4.15.4).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we go with the evidently older, Greek version of Priamos' age at the time of Herakles' attack on Troy (as opposed to what we find in Seneca and Hyginus), we can avoid the tricky situation of having Akhilleus be *older* than (or even about the same age as) the *Iliad*'s aged Priamos, as this would (absurdly) make him older than or the same age as his own father Peleus!    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Calculating...&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With the chronology that we have of Herakles' career, provided mostly by the *Bibliotheka Historika*, it seems that Paris has to be born before Herakles attacks Troy in order for the rest of the story to work. Assuming that Paris is about 20 years old when he takes Helen from Lakedaimon, we can break it down as follows. (The years are numbered with Akhilleus' birth as the anchor-point so that Year 0 is when Akhilleus is born.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**`-7 years`** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Birth of Paris**. (His grandfather Laomedon is still king of Troy). &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;Also: wedding of Peleus &amp; Thetis? (It would be rather poetically resonant if Paris, a major cause of the war, is born in this same year.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**`0 years`** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Birth of Akhilleus**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`6 years`&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;8th *athlos* (labour/ task) of Herakles: to fetch the mares of King Diomedes of Bistonia.&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;Also: **the voyage of the *Argo***.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When this *athlos* {*i.e. the 8th one*} was finished Herakles sailed forth with Iason&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Jason] as a member of the expedition {*of the Argonauts*} to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Colchians to get the golden fleece.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*Bibliotheka Historika* 4.15.4&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the same year Akhilleus is a young child under the tutelage of the Centaur Kheiron [Chiron].  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;(Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautika* 1.555-558)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Later, same year:* Herakles' 9th *athlos*: to fetch the girdle of the Amazon queen, after which he rescues Paris's aunt Hesione from Poseidon's sea-monster.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`8 years` &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles attacks Troy &amp; kills Laomedon. Priamos becomes king of Troy. (Paris is 15.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Akhilleus' uncle Telamon (brother of Peleus), who has assisted Herakles in sacking Troy, receives Hesione and her sister Theianeira as war prizes and makes them both his concubines.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;On the journey from Troy back to Greece, Telamon impregnates Theianeira &amp; she escapes from his ship, making her way to the island of Miletos [Miletus], where she gives birth to Telamon's son Trambelos [Trambelus] (John Tzetzes on Lycophron's *Alexandra* 467).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Hesione gives birth to Telamon's son Teukros [Teucer]. Telamon's legitimate son Aias [Ajax] is also born.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`9 years` ? Paris meets Hera, Athena &amp; Aphrodite &amp; awards Eris's golden apple to Aphrodite? (The goddesses would have been squabbling for 16 years at this point = Paris's age.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`10 years` Death of Herakles(?).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`13 years` Paris (Age 20) takes Helen to Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`15 years` Greek army assembles for the first time in prep for the Trojan War. (Paris is 22.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**`23 years` Siege of Troy** begins, for the sake of retrieving Helen. (**Paris is 30**.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Teukros (Age 15), a great archer, fights on the side of the Greeks together with his cousin Akhilleus against his cousin Paris and other Trojan relatives of his. Teukros' half-brother Aias (Age 15) is a distinguished warrior here as well.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`30 years` &lt;sub&gt;(or thereabouts) Trambelos (Age 22) is king of the Leleges (either on Miletos or on Lesbos Island). Akhilleus wounds him fatally in battle only to find out, with the king's dying breath, that he is his cousin, at which Akhilleus greatly repents, but all too late.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`33 years`  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Akhilleus dies (as does his cousin Aias); Neoptolemos lands in Troy; Priamos dies; the city burns. **Paris** also **dies, Age 40**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Footnote 4 on p. 187 of *Apollodorus: The Library, with an English Translation, in Two Volumes by Sir James George Frazer*. 1921. William Heinemann, London, &amp; G.P. Putnam's Sons, New York&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. Homer does not seem to know anything about Herakles having killed Priamos' brothers since they are all alive and among the elders of Troy during the Trojan War in the *Iliad*.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. According to the &quot;Achilles&quot; article of William Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology (1888), &quot;From his sixth year he fought with lions and bears, and caught stags without dogs or nets.&quot; This presumably is taking place during his training with Kheiron.&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19147" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5710" RevisionGUID="56548c2c-424f-4eab-9ae9-b75135036642" CreationDate="2019-06-02T20:15:51.467" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar, improved formatting &amp; updated info" Text="The Actual Duration of the War&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Towards the end of the *Iliad*, whose action takes place in the tenth and final year of the Trojan War, Helen says (in Line 765 of Book 24) that &quot;this is now the twentieth year&quot; since she departed from Lakedaimon [Lacedaemon] with Paris. &quot;The words have puzzled the Scholiasts and commentators&quot;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; for centuries because one might have expected the duration mentioned by her to be closer to the length of the war; but the war's length accounts for only half of the amount of time she's talking about.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Having been lost in ancient times, the portion of the work attributed to **Apollodorus** entitled the *Epitome* was discovered in 1891, and it contains a full explanation for this duration. For the Greeks the war had indeed lasted about twenty years. They had landed in Troas only nine years prior to the beginning of the *Iliad* and had engaged the Trojans immediately. However, they had first mustered up their forces to head for their enemy's territory in Asia eight years *before* their arrival in Troas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not really knowing their way there, combined with additional shenanigans that transpired, they landed in Mysia, mistakenly thinking that that was Troas, and eventually all ended up back home in Greece. They only managed to reassemble eight years after that debacle, which is narrated in *Epitome* 3.17-19ff. Prior to the first assembly, they had spent two years making preparations to build their army. So 2 years of prep + 8 years of reorientation &amp; *re*-prep + 10 years of combat = Helen's 20 years as mentioned in the *Iliad*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Akhilleus' [Achilles'] Age&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Just before the chaos at the first gathering ensues, the ***Epitome*** tells us (**3.16**):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So Agamemnon in person was in command of the whole army, and Akhilleus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was admiral, being **fifteen years old.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Iliad* mentions nothing so specific about the ages of Akhilleus and Paris, but the *Epitome* does inform us of how old Akhilleus is when the timeline is set at eight years before the beginning of the siege of Troy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;15 + 8 = 23. So Akhilleus is about **twenty-three years old** when the Greek army lands in Troas. Akhilleus dies in the last year of the war a decade later = about Age **33**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This also accounts for the pesky issue of the fact that Akhilleus' son Neoptolemos [Neoptolemus] arrives at Troy in the same year that the city falls, by then evidently a full-grown warrior of a man! If Neoptolemos was born in the same year of the first army gathering, or even the year after that (allowing that he could've been born in his father's absence), he would be roughly 17 or 18 years old when he helped to take Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Paris's Age&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By splicing together a variety of information nuggets from different sources, I believe we can calculate it so that Paris works out to be about seven years older than Akhilleus, if not more. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Iliad* 24 repeatedly tells us that in the last year of the war Paris's father the Trojan king Priamos [Priam] is a significantly elderly man. Speaking of Akhilleus' father Peleus in Lines 485ff, Priamos says that he belongs to the same generation as him (going by A.S. Kline's translation, on his website [Poetry in Translation](https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad24.php#anchor_Toc239246517)), or that his &quot;years are even as mine, on the grievous threshold of old age&quot; (Augustus Taber Murray's 1924 translation). This has to mean that Priamos and Peleus are roughly the same age. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Many years previously, Priamos' father Laomedon was king of Troy. Laomedon had promised to pay the hero Herakles [Hercules] for rescuing his daughter Hesione from a sea-monster but then he swindled Herakles out of the promised reward. Consequently, after some years had elapsed, Herakles returned and sacked Troy, killing Laomedon and all his sons except Priamos, who was spared because he alone among his brothers &quot;had opposed his father and had counselled him to&quot; pay Herakles. This is how Priamos succeeded his father as king according to Diodorus Siculus' *Bibliotheka Historika* 4.32.&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roman writers like Seneca and Hyginus make Priamos out to be a lot younger at the time of Herakles' attack, Seneca saying that he was a little boy (*Troades* 718-735), and Hyginus going so far as to call him a literal baby (*infanti*) in *Fabulae* 89. In Seneca's *Troades*, Herakles seems to spare Priamos out of pity for his tears and his tender age. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautika* 1, Akhilleus [Achilles] is a baby or a young child at the beginning of the expedition of the Argonauts, among whose number is Herakles. In the *Bibliotheka Historika* this implicitly takes place at least a few years before Herakles' attack on Troy (4.15.4).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we go with the evidently older, Greek version of Priamos' age at the time of Herakles' attack on Troy (as opposed to what we find in Seneca and Hyginus), we can avoid the tricky situation of having Akhilleus be *older* than (or even about the same age as) the *Iliad*'s aged Priamos, as this would (absurdly) make him older than or the same age as his own father Peleus!    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Calculating...&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With the chronology that we have of Herakles' career, provided mostly by the *Bibliotheka Historika*, it seems that Paris has to be born before Herakles attacks Troy in order for the rest of the story to work. Assuming that Paris is about 20 years old when he takes Helen from Lakedaimon, we can break it down as follows. (The years are numbered with Akhilleus' birth as the anchor-point so that Year 0 is when Akhilleus is born.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**`-7 years`** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Birth of Paris**. (His grandfather Laomedon is still king of Troy). &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;Also: wedding of Peleus &amp; Thetis? (It would be rather poetically resonant if Paris, a major cause of the war, is born in this same year.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**`0 years`** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Birth of Akhilleus**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**`4 years`** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Now the kings of Greece repaired to Sparta to win the hand of Helen.**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Apollodorus' *Bibliotheka* 3.10.8&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Helen is given to Menelaus, they get married and she gives birth to his daughter **Hermione**.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;(Apollodorus' *Epitome* 3.3)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`NB: Two of the suitors listed in the` *`Bibliotheka`* `ruin this whole calculation.`   &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;(see the last section below)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`6 years`&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;8th *athlos* (labour/ task) of Herakles: to fetch the mares of King Diomedes of Bistonia.&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;Also: **the voyage of the *Argo***.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When this *athlos* {*i.e. the 8th one*} was finished Herakles sailed forth with Iason&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Jason] as a member of the expedition {*of the Argonauts*} to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Colchians to get the golden fleece.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*Bibliotheka Historika* 4.15.4&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the same year Akhilleus is a young child under the tutelage of the Centaur Kheiron [Chiron].  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;(Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautika* 1.555-558)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;During the *Argo*'s voyage, **Herakles rescues Hesione** from Poseidon's sea-monster.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Bibliotheka Historika* 4.32.1, &amp; 4.42&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`8 years` &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles attacks Troy &amp; kills Laomedon. Priamos becomes king of Troy. (Paris is 15.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Akhilleus' uncle Telamon (brother of Peleus), who has assisted Herakles in sacking Troy, receives Hesione and her sister Theianeira as war prizes and makes them both his concubines.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;On the journey from Troy back to Greece, Telamon impregnates Theianeira &amp; she escapes from his ship, making her way to the island of Miletos [Miletus], where she gives birth to Telamon's son Trambelos [Trambelus] (John Tzetzes on Lycophron's *Alexandra* 467). Hesione gives birth to Telamon's son Teukros [Teucer].&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Telamon's legitimate son Aias [Ajax] is also born (implied by Pindar's *Isthmian Ode* 6.25-35, taken together with Apollodorus' *Bibliotheka* 3.12.7, &amp; Schol. on Lycophron's *Alexandra* 455).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`10 years` ? Paris meets Hera, Athena &amp; Aphrodite &amp; awards Eris's golden apple to Aphrodite? (The goddesses would have been squabbling for 17 years at this point = Paris's age.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`13 years` Paris takes Helen to Troy. (**Hermione is 9.**)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`15 years` Greek army assembles for the first time in prep for the Trojan War. (Paris is 22.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**`23 years` Siege of Troy** begins, for the sake of retrieving Helen. (**Paris is 30**.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Teukros (Age 15), a great archer, fights on the side of the Greeks together with his cousin Akhilleus against his cousin Paris and other Trojan relatives of his. Teukros' half-brother Aias (Age 15) is a distinguished warrior here as well.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`30 years` &lt;sub&gt;(or thereabouts) Trambelos (Age 22) is king of the Leleges (either on Miletos or on Lesbos Island). Akhilleus wounds him fatally in battle only to find out, with the king's dying breath, that he is his cousin, at which Akhilleus greatly repents, but all too late.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`33 years`  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Paris kills Akhilleus; Akhilleus' cousin Aias dies; Neoptolemos lands in Troy and kills Priamos; Troy burns. **Paris** also **dies, Age 40**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Neoptolemos later marries Hermione when she is around 30 (about 10 years his senior).&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Note: *One Error Found!&lt;***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus' *Bibliotheka* 3.10.8 (cited above, at `4 years`) names Aias and Teukros among the suitors of Helen. But Teukros cannot have been born before Herakles' and Telamon's attack on Troy (since his mother Hesione was acquired during it). And Pindar, as well as another part of the *same* aforementioned *Bibliotheka* book (see `8 years` above), imply that Aias was born, at most, just a few years before the same attack.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Assuming that Helen would have to have already been wed to Menelaus when Hermione was born, and granting that this wedding could have taken place in the same year that the suitors came to Sparta, then Aias and Teukros would have to have been young men at least by this point in time (let's say each 16 years old).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is not a problem until we combine:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Akhilleus already being alive during the *Argo*'s voyage +&#xD;&#xA; - Teukros (&amp; maybe also Aias) being born only a few years after that +&#xD;&#xA; - Teukros &amp; Aias being suitors of Helen +&#xD;&#xA; - Menelaus &amp; Helen having been married for at least 9 years already when Akhilleus is 13.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We need to ignore one of these 4 parts of the equation for everything else to click into place just as listed in the previous section.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Footnotes**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Footnote 4 on p. 187 of *Apollodorus: The Library, with an English Translation, in Two Volumes by Sir James George Frazer*. 1921. William Heinemann, London, &amp; G.P. Putnam's Sons, New York&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. Homer does not seem to know anything about Herakles having killed Priamos' brothers since they are all alive and among the elders of Troy during the Trojan War in the *Iliad*.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. According to the &quot;Achilles&quot; article of William Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology (1888), &quot;From his {*i.e. Akhilleus's*} sixth year he fought with lions and bears, and caught stags without dogs or nets.&quot; This presumably is taking place during Akhilleus's training with Kheiron.&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19148" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5710" RevisionGUID="de3f32f7-c0a3-4c45-8f38-9833aad2136d" CreationDate="2019-06-02T21:54:03.543" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar, improved formatting &amp; tweaked some details" Text="The Actual Duration of the War&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Towards the end of the *Iliad*, whose action takes place in the tenth and final year of the Trojan War, Helen says (in Line 765 of Book 24) that &quot;this is now the twentieth year&quot; since she departed from Lakedaimon [Lacedaemon] with Paris. &quot;The words have puzzled the Scholiasts and commentators&quot;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; for centuries because one might have expected the duration mentioned by her to be closer to the length of the war; but the war's length accounts for only half of the amount of time she's talking about.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Having been lost in ancient times, the portion of the work attributed to **Apollodorus** entitled the *Epitome* was discovered in 1891, and it contains a full explanation for this duration. For the Greeks the war had indeed lasted about twenty years. They had landed in Troas only nine years prior to the beginning of the *Iliad* and had engaged the Trojans immediately. However, they had first mustered up their forces to head for their enemy's territory in Asia eight years *before* their arrival in Troas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not really knowing their way there, combined with additional shenanigans that transpired, they landed in Mysia, mistakenly thinking that that was Troas, and eventually all ended up back home in Greece. They only managed to reassemble eight years after that debacle, which is narrated in *Epitome* 3.17-19ff. Prior to the first assembly, they had spent two years making preparations to build their army. So 2 years of prep + 8 years of reorientation &amp; *re*-prep + 10 years of combat = Helen's 20 years as mentioned in the *Iliad*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Akhilleus' [Achilles'] Age&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Just before the chaos at the first gathering ensues, the ***Epitome*** tells us (**3.16**):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So Agamemnon in person was in command of the whole army, and Akhilleus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was admiral, being **fifteen years old.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Iliad* mentions nothing so specific about the ages of Akhilleus and Paris, but the *Epitome* does inform us of how old Akhilleus is when the timeline is set at eight years before the beginning of the siege of Troy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;15 + 8 = 23. So Akhilleus is about **twenty-three years old** when the Greek army lands in Troas. Akhilleus dies in the last year of the war a decade later = about Age **33**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This also accounts for the pesky issue of the fact that Akhilleus' son Neoptolemos [Neoptolemus] arrives at Troy in the same year that the city falls, by then evidently a full-grown warrior of a man! If Neoptolemos was born in the same year of the first army gathering, or even the year after that (allowing that he could've been born in his father's absence), he would be roughly 17 or 18 years old when he helped to take Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Paris's Age&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By splicing together a variety of information nuggets from different sources, I believe we can calculate it so that Paris works out to be about seven years older than Akhilleus, if not more. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Iliad* 24 repeatedly tells us that in the last year of the war Paris's father the Trojan king Priamos [Priam] is a significantly elderly man. Speaking of Akhilleus' father Peleus in Lines 485ff, Priamos says that he belongs to the same generation as him (going by A.S. Kline's translation, on his website [Poetry in Translation](https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad24.php#anchor_Toc239246517)), or that his &quot;years are even as mine, on the grievous threshold of old age&quot; (Augustus Taber Murray's 1924 translation). This has to mean that Priamos and Peleus are roughly the same age. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Many years previously, Priamos' father Laomedon was king of Troy. Laomedon had promised to pay the hero Herakles [Hercules] for rescuing his daughter Hesione from a sea-monster but then he swindled Herakles out of the promised reward. Consequently, after some years had elapsed, Herakles returned and sacked Troy, killing Laomedon and all his sons except Priamos, who was spared because he alone among his brothers &quot;had opposed his father and had counselled him to&quot; pay Herakles. This, according to Diodorus Siculus' *Bibliotheka Historika* 4.32, is how Priamos succeeded his father as king.&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roman writers like Seneca and Hyginus make Priamos out to be a lot younger at the time of Herakles' attack, Seneca referring to him as a little boy (*Troades* 718-735), and Hyginus going as far as saying that he was a baby (*infanti*) at the time (*Fabulae* 89). In Seneca's *Troades*, Herakles seems to spare Priamos out of pity for the latter's tears and his tender age. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautika* 1, Akhilleus [Achilles] is a baby or a young child at the beginning of the expedition of the Argonauts, among whose number is Herakles. In the *Bibliotheka Historika* (4.15.4) this expedition takes place, it seems, just a few years before Herakles' attack on Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we go with the evidently older, Greek version of Priamos' age at the time of Herakles' attack on Troy (as opposed to what we find in Seneca and Hyginus), we can avoid the tricky situation of having Akhilleus be *older* than (or even about the same age as) the *Iliad*'s aged Priamos, as this would (absurdly) make him older than or the same age as his own father Peleus!    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Calculating...&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With the chronology that we have of Herakles' career, provided mostly by the *Bibliotheka Historika*, it seems that Paris has to be born before Herakles attacks Troy in order for the rest of the story to work. Assuming that Paris is about 20 years old when he takes Helen from Lakedaimon, we can break it down as follows. (The years are numbered with Akhilleus' birth as the anchor-point so that Year 0 is when Akhilleus is born.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**`-7 years`** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Birth of Paris**. (His grandfather Laomedon is still king of Troy). &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;Also: wedding of Peleus &amp; Thetis? (It would be rather poetically resonant if Paris, a major cause of the war, is born in the year of this inauspicious occasion.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**`0 years`** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Birth of Akhilleus**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**`4 years`** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Now the kings of Greece repaired to Sparta to win the hand of Helen.**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Apollodorus' *Bibliotheka* 3.10.8&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Helen is given to Menelaus, they get married and she gives birth to his daughter **Hermione**.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;(Apollodorus' *Epitome* 3.3)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`NB: Two of the suitors listed in the` *`Bibliotheka`* `ruin this whole calculation.`   &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;(see the last section below)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`6 years`&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;8th *athlos* (labour/ task) of Herakles: to fetch the mares of King Diomedes of Bistonia.&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;Also: **the voyage of the *Argo***.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When this *athlos* {*i.e. the 8th one*} was finished Herakles sailed forth with Iason&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Jason] as a member of the expedition to the Colchians to get the golden fleece.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*Bibliotheka Historika* 4.15.4&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the same year Akhilleus is a young child under the tutelage of the Centaur Kheiron [Chiron].  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;(Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautika* 1.555-558)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;During the *Argo*'s voyage, **Herakles rescues Hesione** from Poseidon's sea-monster.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;(*Bibliotheka Historika* 4.32.1, &amp; 4.42)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`8 years` &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles attacks Troy &amp; kills Laomedon. Priamos becomes king of Troy. (Paris is 15.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Akhilleus' uncle Telamon (brother of Peleus), who has assisted Herakles in sacking Troy, receives Hesione and her sister Theianeira as war prizes and makes them both his concubines.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;On the journey from Troy back to Greece, Telamon impregnates Theianeira &amp; she escapes from his ship, making her way to the island of Miletos [Miletus], where she gives birth to Telamon's son Trambelos [Trambelus] (John Tzetzes on Lycophron's *Alexandra* 467). Hesione gives birth to Telamon's son Teukros [Teucer].&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Telamon's legitimate son Aias [Ajax] is also born (implied by Pindar's *Isthmian Ode* 6.25-35, taken together with Apollodorus' *Bibliotheka* 3.12.7, &amp; Schol. on Lycophron's *Alexandra* 455).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`10 years` ? Paris meets Hera, Athena &amp; Aphrodite &amp; awards Eris's golden apple to Aphrodite? (The goddesses would have been squabbling for 17 years at this point = Paris's age.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`13 years` Paris takes Helen to Troy. **Hermione is 9** (Apollodorus' *Epitome* 3.3).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`15 years` Greek army assembles for the first time in prep for the Trojan War. (Paris is 22.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**`23 years` Siege of Troy** begins, for the sake of retrieving Helen. (**Paris is 30**.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Teukros (Age 15), a great archer, fights on the side of the Greeks together with his cousin Akhilleus against his cousin Paris and other Trojan relatives of his. Teukros' half-brother Aias (Age 15) is a distinguished warrior here as well.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`30 years` &lt;sub&gt;(or thereabouts) Trambelos (Age 22) is king of the Leleges (either on Miletos or on Lesbos Island). Akhilleus wounds him fatally in battle only to find out, with the king's dying breath, that he is his cousin, at which Akhilleus greatly repents, but all too late.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`33 years`  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Paris kills Akhilleus; Aias kills himself; Neoptolemos lands in Troy and kills Priamos; Troy burns. **Paris** also **dies, Age 40**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Neoptolemos later marries Hermione when she is around 30 (about 10 years his senior).&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Note: *One Error Found!&lt;***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus' *Bibliotheka* 3.10.8 (cited above, at `4 years`) names Aias and Teukros among the suitors of Helen. But Teukros cannot have been born before Herakles' and Telamon's attack on Troy (since his mother Hesione was acquired during it). And Pindar implies, as does another part of the *same* aforementioned *Bibliotheka* book (see `8 years` above), that Aias was born, at most, just a few years before the same attack.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Assuming that Helen would have to have already been wed to Menelaus when Hermione was born, and granting that this wedding could have taken place in the same year that the suitors came to Sparta, then Aias and Teukros, to be suitors, would have to have been young men at least by this point in time (let's say each 16 years old).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is not a problem until we combine:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Akhilleus already being alive during the *Argo*'s voyage +&#xD;&#xA; - Teukros (&amp; maybe also Aias) being born only a few years after that +&#xD;&#xA; - Teukros &amp; Aias being suitors of Helen +&#xD;&#xA; - Menelaus &amp; Helen having been married for at least 9 years already when Akhilleus is 13 &amp; Paris whisks Helen away from her home.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We need to ignore one of these four parts of the equation for everything else to click into place just as listed in the previous section.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Footnotes**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Footnote 4 on p. 187 of *Apollodorus: The Library, with an English Translation, in Two Volumes by Sir James George Frazer*. 1921. William Heinemann, London, &amp; G.P. Putnam's Sons, New York&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. Homer does not seem to know anything about Herakles having killed Priamos' brothers since they are all alive and among the elders of Troy during the Trojan War in the *Iliad*.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. According to the &quot;Achilles&quot; article of William Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology (1888), &quot;From his {*i.e. Akhilleus's*} sixth year he fought with lions and bears, and caught stags without dogs or nets.&quot; This presumably is taking place during Akhilleus's training with Kheiron.&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19149" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5709" RevisionGUID="cd0eefac-31ed-47d3-8143-d1f3cc5089a4" CreationDate="2019-06-02T22:01:39.137" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="**Helen's Many Voices**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Odyssey* 4.274-289 Menelaus recounts a story from the time that he and other leaders of the Greek forces at Troy were hiding in the famous decoy wooden horse which they used as a stratagem to win the Trojan War. He says that the Trojans used Helen to test whether the horse might in fact be concealing enemy combatants within it. The means of this test was for her to simulate the voices of the wives of the men hidden inside the giant horse. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Reminding Helen of the occurrence, Menelaus says to her:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;You circled our hollow hiding-place, striking the surface, calling out&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the names of the Danaan captains, in the very voices of each of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Argives’ wives.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The trick was so convincing that both Menelaus and Diomedes &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;were ready to answer within, and leap out, but Odysseus restrained&#xD;&#xA;&gt; us, despite our eagerness. The rest of the Achaeans kept silent too,&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;although there was one warrior named Anticlus who had to be pinned down by Odysseus, who &quot;'clapped his strong hands over his mouth'&quot; until Helen left the scene.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anticlus is known only from this story, which Tryphiodorus expands upon in *The Taking of Ilios [Ilium]*, telling us that Odysseus had to apply so much strain upon Anticlus to keep him from giving the big plan away, that this warrior died there and then. The other chieftains mourned him quietly, &quot;with secret tears&quot;, wrapped his corpse in a coverlet and &quot;hid him away in the hollow flank of the horse,&quot; performing an instant and silent funeral!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are a few significantly remarkable elements in the story. The number of men hidden in the horse ranges from as low as twenty-three to as high as fifty (the standard figure landing roughly near the middle at forty).&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; Helen must have known each of these men well enough to, additionally, know their wives in order to remember them all and have a ready reference-point to work from in order to imitate the women's voices as impeccably as the story tells us that she did.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only alternative to this that I can think of is that Helen somehow had the ability to spontaneously assume the voice of practically any woman that she wanted to, using perhaps... some kind of magic? Incidentally, in the same passage of the *Odyssey* from which we get the story (Lines 219-232 of Book 4), we are told that Helen has in her possession powerful healing drugs which can wipe away one's cares and sorrows for an entire day, which she had received as a gift from a certain Egyptian woman. Drugs and sorcery are, in cultures the world over, including in Greek myth, very closely associated (and in fact the words for &quot;drugs&quot; and &quot;witchcraft&quot; are the same in Ancient Greek).&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**What is the source of Helen's stunning facility with vocal mimicry?** Did she spend a good chunk of her life honing her voice-acting skills (listener beware: she's not just a pretty face)? Or does the story mean for us to understand this as something more supernatural which not just anyone can achieve? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a link between this and what comes later in the poem (Book 12), wherein Odysseus will encounter **the Sirens**, the monster sea-nymphs whose singing is so beautiful that it causes sailors to wreck their ships and lose their lives upon the rocks of the Sirens' island as they steer towards them? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Paralleling Helen's prodigious knowledge of the Greek soldiers' wives, the Sirens, who presumably have never met Odysseus before, see his ship approaching in the distance and beckon him specifically by name in their song. Certainly the Sirens are supernatural creatures; is Helen just as &quot;super&quot; in a similar vein?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Stentor's Megaphonic Voice**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Iliad* 5.785-786 says that Stentor, the herald of the Greeks during the Trojan War, was &quot;bronze-voiced&quot;, his voice being louder than those of fifty other men. A couple of *Iliad* scholia say that he died after losing a shouting contest with the herald-god Hermes. This story seems to understand the character's description in the *Iliad* as something beyond mere hyperbole, considering that Stentor is in a position to compete with the god of message-relay himself in the use of his vocal chords. Or is there a more mundane way to interpret this?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Apollodorus' *Epitome* 5.14, which supplies us the figure of fifty, also cites the *Little Iliad* as numbering the hidden men at three thousand(!), which to me sounds particularly implausible (even in this fantastical setting).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. For some reason this section of the *Odyssey* passage is careful to point out that the soil from which Helen's gift was derived, in addition to being rich in curative herbs, contains harmful ones as well.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;*Odyssey* quotes taken from A.S. Kline's [Poetry in &#xD;&#xA;   Translation](https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Odyssey4.php#anchor_Toc90267394)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;*The Taking of Ilios* quotes taken from *Oppian, Colluthus,&#xD;&#xA;   Tryphiodorus, with a Translation by A.W. Mair*. 1928. William&#xD;&#xA;   Heinemann Ltd, London, &amp; G.P. Putnam's Sons, New York&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19150" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5710" RevisionGUID="8c64aee9-ee8a-40ef-bdf5-ae4cc93e22b2" CreationDate="2019-06-03T21:13:05.100" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar, improved formatting &amp; tweaked some details" Text="The Actual Duration of the War&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Towards the end of the *Iliad*, whose action takes place in the tenth and final year of the Trojan War, Helen says (in Line 765 of Book 24) that &quot;this is now the twentieth year&quot; since she departed from Lakedaimon [Lacedaemon] with Paris. &quot;The words have puzzled the Scholiasts and commentators&quot;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; for centuries because one might have expected the duration mentioned by her to be closer to the length of the war; but the war's length accounts for only half of the amount of time she's talking about.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Having been lost in ancient times, the portion of the work attributed to **Apollodorus** entitled the *Epitome* was discovered in 1891, and it contains a full explanation for this duration. For the Greeks the war had indeed lasted about twenty years. They had landed in Troas only nine years prior to the beginning of the *Iliad* and had engaged the Trojans immediately. However, they had first mustered up their forces to head for their enemy's territory in Asia eight years *before* their arrival in Troas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not really knowing their way there, combined with additional shenanigans that transpired, they landed in Mysia, mistakenly thinking that that was Troas, and eventually all ended up back home in Greece. They only managed to reassemble eight years after that debacle, which is narrated in *Epitome* 3.17-19ff. Prior to the first assembly, they had spent two years making preparations to build their army. So 2 years of prep + 8 years of reorientation &amp; *re*-prep + 10 years of combat = Helen's 20 years as mentioned in the *Iliad*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Akhilleus' [Achilles'] Age&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Just before the chaos at the first gathering ensues, the ***Epitome*** tells us (**3.16**):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So Agamemnon in person was in command of the whole army, and Akhilleus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was admiral, being **fifteen years old.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Iliad* mentions nothing so specific about the ages of Akhilleus and Paris, but the *Epitome* does inform us of how old Akhilleus is when the timeline is set at eight years before the beginning of the siege of Troy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;15 + 8 = 23. So Akhilleus is about **twenty-three years old** when the Greek army lands in Troas. Akhilleus dies in the last year of the war a decade later = about Age **33**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This also accounts for the pesky issue of the fact that Akhilleus' son Neoptolemos [Neoptolemus] arrives at Troy in the same year that the city falls, by then evidently a full-grown warrior of a man! If Neoptolemos was born in the same year of the first army gathering, or even the year after that (allowing that he could've been born in his father's absence), he would be roughly 17 or 18 years old when he helps to take Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Paris's Age&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By splicing together a variety of information nuggets from different sources, I believe we can calculate it so that Paris works out to be about seven years older than Akhilleus, if not more. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Iliad* 24 repeatedly tells us that in the last year of the war Paris's father the Trojan king Priamos [Priam] is a significantly elderly man. Speaking of Akhilleus' father Peleus in Lines 485ff, Priamos says that he belongs to the same generation as him (going by A.S. Kline's translation, on his website [Poetry in Translation](https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad24.php#anchor_Toc239246517)), or that his &quot;years are even as mine, on the grievous threshold of old age&quot; (Augustus Taber Murray's 1924 translation). This has to mean that Priamos and Peleus are roughly the same age. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Many years previously, Priamos' father Laomedon was king of Troy. Laomedon had promised to pay the hero Herakles [Hercules] for rescuing his daughter Hesione from a sea-monster but then he swindled Herakles out of the promised reward. Consequently, after some years had elapsed, Herakles returned and sacked Troy, killing Laomedon and all his sons except Priamos, who was spared because he alone among his brothers &quot;had opposed his father and had counselled him to&quot; pay Herakles. This, according to Diodorus Siculus' *Bibliotheka Historika* 4.32, is how Priamos succeeded his father as king.&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roman writers like Seneca and Hyginus make Priamos out to be a lot younger at the time of Herakles' attack, Seneca referring to him as a little boy (*Troades* 718-735), and Hyginus going as far as saying that he was a baby (*infanti*) at the time (*Fabulae* 89). In Seneca's *Troades*, Herakles seems to spare Priamos out of pity for the latter's tears and his tender age. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautika* 1, Akhilleus [Achilles] is a baby or a young child at the beginning of the expedition of the Argonauts, among whose number is Herakles. In the *Bibliotheka Historika* (4.15.4) this expedition takes place, it seems, just a few years before Herakles' attack on Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we go with the evidently older, Greek version of Priamos' age at the time of Herakles' attack on Troy (as opposed to what we find in Seneca and Hyginus), we can avoid the tricky situation of having Akhilleus be *older* than (or even about the same age as) the *Iliad*'s aged Priamos, as this would (absurdly) make him older than or the same age as his own father Peleus!    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Calculating...&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With the chronology that we have of Herakles' career, provided mostly by the *Bibliotheka Historika*, it seems that Paris has to be born before Herakles attacks Troy in order for the rest of the story to work. Assuming that Paris is about 20 years old when he takes Helen from Lakedaimon, we can break it down as follows. (The years are numbered with Akhilleus' birth as the anchor-point so that Year 0 is when Akhilleus is born.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**`-7 years`** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Birth of Paris**. (His grandfather Laomedon is still king of Troy). &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;Also: wedding of Peleus &amp; Thetis? (It would be rather poetically resonant if Paris, a major cause of the war, is born in the year of this inauspicious occasion.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**`0 years`** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Birth of Akhilleus**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**`4 years`** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Now the kings of Greece repaired to Sparta to win the hand of Helen.**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Apollodorus' *Bibliotheka* 3.10.8&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Helen is given to Menelaus, they get married and she gives birth to his daughter **Hermione**.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;(Apollodorus' *Epitome* 3.3)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`NB: Two of the suitors listed in the` *`Bibliotheka`* `ruin this whole calculation.`   &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;(see the last section below)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`6 years`&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;8th *athlos* (labour/ task) of Herakles: to fetch the mares of King Diomedes of Bistonia.&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;Also: **the voyage of the *Argo***.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When this *athlos* {*i.e. the 8th one*} was finished Herakles sailed forth with Iason&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Jason] as a member of the expedition to the Colchians to get the golden fleece.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*Bibliotheka Historika* 4.15.4&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the same year Akhilleus is a young child under the tutelage of the Centaur Kheiron [Chiron].  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;(Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautika* 1.555-558)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;During the *Argo*'s voyage, **Herakles rescues Hesione** from Poseidon's sea-monster.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;(*Bibliotheka Historika* 4.32.1, &amp; 4.42)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`8 years` &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles attacks Troy &amp; kills Laomedon. Priamos becomes king of Troy. (Paris is 15.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Akhilleus' uncle Telamon (brother of Peleus), who has assisted Herakles in sacking Troy, receives Hesione and her sister Theianeira as war prizes and makes them both his concubines.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;On the journey from Troy back to Greece, Telamon impregnates Theianeira &amp; she escapes from his ship, making her way to the island of Miletos [Miletus], where she gives birth to Telamon's son Trambelos [Trambelus] (John Tzetzes on Lycophron's *Alexandra* 467). Hesione gives birth to Telamon's son Teukros [Teucer].&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Telamon's legitimate son Aias [Ajax] is also born (implied by Pindar's *Isthmian Ode* 6.25-35, taken together with Apollodorus' *Bibliotheka* 3.12.7, &amp; Schol. on Lycophron's *Alexandra* 455).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`10 years` ? Paris (Age 17) meets Hera, Athena &amp; Aphrodite &amp; awards Eris's golden apple to Aphrodite?  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;(The goddesses would have been squabbling for at least 10 years at this point; longer than that if the wedding of Peleus &amp; Thetis takes place earlier than the year of Akhilleus' birth.)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`13 years` Paris takes Helen to Troy. **Hermione is 9** (Apollodorus' *Epitome* 3.3).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`15 years` Greek army assembles for the first time in prep for the Trojan War. (Paris is 22.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**`23 years` Siege of Troy** begins, for the sake of retrieving Helen. (**Paris is 30**.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Teukros (Age 15), a great archer, fights on the side of the Greeks together with his cousin Akhilleus against his cousin Paris and other Trojan relatives of his. Teukros' half-brother Aias (Age 15) is a distinguished warrior here as well.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`30 years` &lt;sub&gt;(or thereabouts) Trambelos (Age 22) is king of the Leleges (either on Miletos or on Lesbos Island). Akhilleus wounds him fatally in battle only to find out, with the king's dying breath, that he is his cousin, at which Akhilleus greatly repents, but all too late.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`33 years`  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Paris kills Akhilleus; Aias kills himself; Neoptolemos lands in Troy and kills Priamos; Troy burns. **Paris** also **dies, Age 40**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Neoptolemos later marries Hermione when she is around 30 (about 10 years his senior).&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Note: *One Error Found!&lt;***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus' *Bibliotheka* 3.10.8 (cited above, at `4 years`) names Aias and Teukros among the suitors of Helen. But Teukros cannot have been born before Herakles' and Telamon's attack on Troy (since his mother Hesione was acquired during said attack). And Pindar implies, as does another part of the *same* aforementioned *Bibliotheka* book (see `8 years` above), that Aias was born, at most, just a few years before the same attack.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Assuming that Helen would have to have already been wed to Menelaus when Hermione was born, and granting that this wedding could have taken place in the same year that the suitors came to Sparta, then Aias and Teukros, to be suitors, would have to have been young men at least by this point in time (let's say each 16 years old).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is not a problem until we combine the following items:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Akhilleus already being alive during the *Argo*'s voyage +&#xD;&#xA; 2. Teukros (&amp; maybe also Aias) being born only a few years after that +&#xD;&#xA; 3. Menelaus &amp; Helen having been married for at least 9 years already when Akhilleus is 13 &amp; Paris whisks Helen away from her home +&#xD;&#xA; 4. Teukros &amp; Aias being suitors of Helen (because, then, they would've been born only around the time of the suitors' gathering at Sparta, most likely no earlier than 2-4 years *after* the event).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We need to ignore one of these 4 parts of the equation for everything else to click into place just as listed in the previous section.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Footnotes**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Footnote 4 on p. 187 of *Apollodorus: The Library, with an English Translation, in Two Volumes by Sir James George Frazer*. 1921. William Heinemann, London, &amp; G.P. Putnam's Sons, New York&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. Homer does not seem to know anything about Herakles having killed Priamos' brothers since they are all alive and among the elders of Troy during the Trojan War in the *Iliad*.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. According to the &quot;Achilles&quot; article of William Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology (1888), &quot;From his {*i.e. Akhilleus's*} sixth year he fought with lions and bears, and caught stags without dogs or nets.&quot; This presumably is taking place during Akhilleus's training with Kheiron.&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19152" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5710" RevisionGUID="e3ee3351-abdc-4eab-81b5-6df00af593c2" CreationDate="2019-06-04T04:07:40.653" UserId="2682" Comment="added info" Text="The Actual Duration of the War&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Towards the end of the *Iliad*, whose action takes place in the tenth and final year of the Trojan War, Helen says (in Line 765 of Book 24) that &quot;this is now the twentieth year&quot; since she departed from Lakedaimon [Lacedaemon] with Paris. &quot;The words have puzzled the Scholiasts and commentators&quot;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; for centuries because one might have expected the duration mentioned by her to be closer to the length of the war; but the war's length accounts for only half of the amount of time she's talking about.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Having been lost in ancient times, the portion of the work attributed to **Apollodorus** entitled the *Epitome* was discovered in 1891, and it contains a full explanation for this duration. For the Greeks the war had indeed lasted about twenty years. They had landed in Troas only nine years prior to the beginning of the *Iliad* and had engaged the Trojans immediately. However, they had first mustered up their forces to head for their enemy's territory in Asia eight years *before* their arrival in Troas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not really knowing their way there, combined with additional shenanigans that transpired, they landed in Mysia, mistakenly thinking that that was Troas, and eventually all ended up back home in Greece. They only managed to reassemble eight years after that debacle, which is narrated in *Epitome* 3.17-19ff. Prior to the first assembly, they had spent two years making preparations to build their army. So 2 years of prep + 8 years of reorientation &amp; *re*-prep + 10 years of combat = Helen's 20 years as mentioned in the *Iliad*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Akhilleus' [Achilles'] Age&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Just before the chaos at the first gathering ensues, the ***Epitome*** tells us (**3.16**):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So Agamemnon in person was in command of the whole army, and Akhilleus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was admiral, being **fifteen years old.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Iliad* mentions nothing so specific about the ages of Akhilleus and Paris, but the *Epitome* does inform us of how old Akhilleus is when the timeline is set at eight years before the beginning of the siege of Troy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;15 + 8 = 23. So Akhilleus is about **twenty-three years old** when the Greek army lands in Troas. Akhilleus dies in the last year of the war a decade later = about Age **33**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This also accounts for the pesky issue of the fact that Akhilleus' son Neoptolemos [Neoptolemus] arrives at Troy in the same year that the city falls, by then evidently a full-grown warrior of a man! If Neoptolemos was born in the same year of the first army gathering, or even the year after that (allowing that he could've been born in his father's absence), he would be roughly 17 or 18 years old when he helps to take Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Paris's Age&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By splicing together a variety of information nuggets from different sources, I believe we can calculate it so that Paris works out to be about seven years older than Akhilleus, if not more. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Iliad* 24 repeatedly tells us that in the last year of the war Paris's father the Trojan king Priamos [Priam] is a significantly elderly man. Speaking of Akhilleus' father Peleus in Lines 485ff, Priamos says that he belongs to the same generation as him (going by A.S. Kline's translation, on his website [Poetry in Translation](https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad24.php#anchor_Toc239246517)), or that his &quot;years are even as mine, on the grievous threshold of old age&quot; (Augustus Taber Murray's 1924 translation). This has to mean that Priamos and Peleus are roughly the same age. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Many years previously, Priamos' father Laomedon was king of Troy. Laomedon had promised to pay the hero Herakles [Hercules] for rescuing his daughter Hesione from a sea-monster but then he swindled Herakles out of the promised reward. Consequently, after some years had elapsed, Herakles returned and sacked Troy, killing Laomedon and all his sons except Priamos, who was spared because he alone among his brothers &quot;had opposed his father and had counselled him to&quot; pay Herakles. This, according to Diodorus Siculus' *Bibliotheka Historika* 4.32, is how Priamos succeeded his father as king.&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roman writers like Seneca and Hyginus make Priamos out to be a lot younger at the time of Herakles' attack, Seneca referring to him as a little boy (*Troades* 718-735), and Hyginus going as far as saying that he was a baby (*infanti*) at the time (*Fabulae* 89). In Seneca's *Troades*, Herakles seems to spare Priamos out of pity for the latter's tears and his tender age. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautika* 1, Akhilleus [Achilles] is a baby or a young child at the beginning of the expedition of the Argonauts, among whose number is Herakles. In the *Bibliotheka Historika* (4.15.4) this expedition takes place, it seems, just a few years before Herakles' attack on Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we go with the evidently older, Greek version of Priamos' age at the time of Herakles' attack on Troy (as opposed to what we find in Seneca and Hyginus), we can avoid the tricky situation of having Akhilleus be *older* than (or even about the same age as) the *Iliad*'s aged Priamos, as this would (absurdly) make him older than or the same age as his own father Peleus!    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Calculating...&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With the chronology that we have of Herakles' career, provided mostly by the *Bibliotheka Historika*, it seems that Paris has to be born before Herakles attacks Troy in order for the rest of the story to work. Assuming that Paris is about 20 years old when he takes Helen from Lakedaimon, we can break it down as follows. (The years are numbered with Akhilleus' birth as the anchor-point so that Year 0 is when Akhilleus is born.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**`-7 years`** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Birth of Paris**. (His grandfather Laomedon is still king of Troy). &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;Also: wedding of Peleus &amp; Thetis? (It would be rather poetically resonant if Paris, a major cause of the war, is born in the year of this inauspicious occasion.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**`0 years`** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Birth of Akhilleus**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**`4 years`** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Now the kings of Greece repaired to Sparta to win the hand of Helen.**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Apollodorus' *Bibliotheka* 3.10.8&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Helen is given to Menelaus, they get married and she gives birth to his daughter **Hermione**.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;(Apollodorus' *Epitome* 3.3)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`NB: Two of the suitors listed in the` *`Bibliotheka`* `ruin this whole calculation.`   &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;(see the last section below)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`6 years`&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;8th *athlos* (labour/ task) of Herakles: to fetch the mares of King Diomedes of Bistonia.&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;Also: **the voyage of the *Argo***.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When this *athlos* {*i.e. the 8th one*} was finished Herakles sailed forth with Iason&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Jason] as a member of the expedition to the Colchians to get the golden fleece.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*Bibliotheka Historika* 4.15.4&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the same year Akhilleus is a young child under the tutelage of the Centaur Kheiron [Chiron].  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;(Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautika* 1.555-558)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;During the *Argo*'s voyage, **Herakles rescues Hesione** from Poseidon's sea-monster.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;(*Bibliotheka Historika* 4.32.1, &amp; 4.42)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`8 years` &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles attacks Troy &amp; kills Laomedon. Priamos becomes king of Troy. (Paris is 15.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Akhilleus' uncle Telamon (brother of Peleus), who has assisted Herakles in sacking Troy, receives Hesione and her sister Theianeira as war prizes and makes them both his concubines.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;On the journey from Troy back to Greece, Telamon impregnates Theianeira &amp; she escapes from his ship, making her way to the island of Miletos [Miletus], where she gives birth to Telamon's son Trambelos [Trambelus] (John Tzetzes on Lycophron's *Alexandra* 467). Hesione gives birth to Telamon's son Teukros [Teucer].&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Telamon's legitimate son Aias [Ajax] is also born (implied by Pindar's *Isthmian Ode* 6.25-35, taken together with Apollodorus' *Bibliotheka* 3.12.7, &amp; Schol. on Lycophron's *Alexandra* 455).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`10 years` ? Paris (Age 17) meets Hera, Athena &amp; Aphrodite &amp; awards Eris's golden apple to Aphrodite?  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;(The goddesses would have been squabbling for at least 10 years at this point; longer than that if the wedding of Peleus &amp; Thetis takes place earlier than the year of Akhilleus' birth.)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`13 years` Paris takes Helen to Troy. **Hermione is 9** (Apollodorus' *Epitome* 3.3).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`15 years` Greek army assembles for the first time in prep for the Trojan War. (Paris is 22.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`20 years` &lt;sub&gt;(or so) Akhilleus returns to Skyros [Scyros] where he marries Deïdameia, the mother of his son Neoptolemos, at which point Neoptolemos would be roughly 5 years old (*Kypria* Fragment 1, labelled as sourced from Proclus' *Khrestomathia* 1).&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**`23 years` Siege of Troy** begins, for the sake of retrieving Helen. (**Paris is 30**.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Teukros (Age 15), a great archer, fights on the side of the Greeks together with his cousin Akhilleus against his cousin Paris and other Trojan relatives of his. Teukros' half-brother Aias (Age 15) is a distinguished warrior here as well.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`30 years` &lt;sub&gt;(or thereabouts) Trambelos (Age 22) is king of the Leleges (either on Miletos or on Lesbos Island). Akhilleus wounds him fatally in battle only to find out, with the king's dying breath, that he is his cousin, at which Akhilleus greatly repents, but all too late.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`33 years`  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Paris kills Akhilleus; Aias kills himself; Neoptolemos lands in Troy and kills Priamos; Troy burns. **Paris** also **dies, Age 40**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Neoptolemos later marries Hermione when she is around 30 (about 10 years his senior).&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Note: *One Error Found!&lt;***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus' *Bibliotheka* 3.10.8 (cited above, at `4 years`) names Aias and Teukros among the suitors of Helen. But Teukros cannot have been born before Herakles' and Telamon's attack on Troy (since his mother Hesione was acquired during said attack). And Pindar implies, as does another part of the *same* aforementioned *Bibliotheka* book (see `8 years` above), that Aias was born, at most, just a few years before the same attack.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Assuming that Helen would have to have already been wed to Menelaus when Hermione was born, and granting that this wedding could have taken place in the same year that the suitors came to Sparta, then Aias and Teukros, to be suitors, would have to have been young men at least by this point in time (let's say each 16 years old).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is not a problem until we combine the following items:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Akhilleus already being alive during the *Argo*'s voyage +&#xD;&#xA; 2. Teukros (&amp; maybe also Aias) being born only a few years after that +&#xD;&#xA; 3. Menelaus &amp; Helen having been married for at least 9 years already when Akhilleus is 13 &amp; Paris whisks Helen away from her home +&#xD;&#xA; 4. Teukros &amp; Aias being suitors of Helen (because, then, they would've been born only around the time of the suitors' gathering at Sparta, most likely no earlier than 2-4 years *after* the event).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We need to ignore one of these 4 parts of the equation for everything else to click into place just as listed in the previous section.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Footnotes**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Footnote 4 on p. 187 of *Apollodorus: The Library, with an English Translation, in Two Volumes by Sir James George Frazer*. 1921. William Heinemann, London, &amp; G.P. Putnam's Sons, New York&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. Homer does not seem to know anything about Herakles having killed Priamos' brothers since they are all alive and among the elders of Troy during the Trojan War in the *Iliad*.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. According to the &quot;Achilles&quot; article of William Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology (1888), &quot;From his {*i.e. Akhilleus's*} sixth year he fought with lions and bears, and caught stags without dogs or nets.&quot; This presumably is taking place during Akhilleus's training with Kheiron.&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19153" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5714" RevisionGUID="4cc439a6-80ab-45a9-9740-a070c38b9774" CreationDate="2019-06-04T10:00:49.103" UserId="3230" Text="This article on the [history of the Devil](https://www.history.com/topics/folklore/history-of-the-devil) suggests Dante was the first who portrayed Satan as ruler of hell: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The idea that the Devil governs hell may have come from the poem by Dante Alighieri, *The Divine Comedy*, published in the early fourteenth century. In it, God created hell when he threw the Devil and his demons out of Heaven with such power they created an enormous hole in the center of the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is this correct? If so, did earlier writers place a different figure in the position?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19154" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5714" RevisionGUID="4cc439a6-80ab-45a9-9740-a070c38b9774" CreationDate="2019-06-04T10:00:49.103" UserId="3230" Text="Where does the idea that Satan rules hell come from?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19155" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5714" RevisionGUID="4cc439a6-80ab-45a9-9740-a070c38b9774" CreationDate="2019-06-04T10:00:49.103" UserId="3230" Text="|christianity|the-devil|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19157" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5451" RevisionGUID="8bbd48fd-15e1-4451-a875-ce0023bd5276" CreationDate="2019-06-04T20:21:12.630" UserId="5726" Comment="added some new information" Text="witchcraft&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Red hair was a sign of witchcraft in Christian Europe and it's said that it was often seen as a marker of guilt in the eyes of witch finders.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many examples of redheads being stereotyped as untrustworthy in medieval times. The &quot;Proverbs of Alfred&quot; **warn not to choose a red-haired person as a friend** and the &quot;Secretum Secretorum&quot; **warns against using redheads as advisors.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kemble notes that similar warnings against short,  &#xD;&#xA;tall, and red men occur in German and medieval Latin. He observes : —  &#xD;&#xA;' The faithlessness of red-haired men is known to have been a widely  &#xD;&#xA;prevailing belief, and to have passed into the proverbs of many European  &#xD;&#xA;countries : Judas, ' in the painted cloth,' has red hair, allusions to  &#xD;&#xA;which in the works of all our old dramatic writers are far too numerous  &#xD;&#xA;to require specific reference.' There is, however, only one such reference  &#xD;&#xA;in Shakespeare; in As You Like It, iii. 4. 9. See D. ii. 264, 265. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;' Never choose for companion a little man, a tall man, or a] red &#xD;&#xA;man.'&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; ' The red man, he is a devil ; for he will advise thee (to) thine ill.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The proverbs of Alfred][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## being a minority ##&#xD;&#xA;The author Ruth Mellinkoff, in her excellent book, &quot;[Outcasts][2],&quot; commented upon this prejudice, believing it to be a product of red hair's minority status in society.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Red hair, a red beard, and ruddy skin - separately or combined - have been considered suspect, impure, and dangerous because they did not meet the standards of the normal. That is essential to keep in mind is that they are minority features in all racial and ethnic groups, *even among the Irish*, who are widely thought to have more redheads.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She also relates an early example of Christian condemnation of red hair, quoting from a letter from St. Jerome which gave advice on raising daughters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Do not dye her hair red and thereby presage for her the fires of hell.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[letters from Jerome][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## special ingredients ##&#xD;&#xA;The medieval mind also attributed magical properties to the bodily fluids of redheads. For example, it was believed that the fat from a red-haired man could be used to make poison. Likewise, Theophilus Presbyter stated that the blood of a red-haired man was needed to turn copper into gold. The urine from red-haired boys was also used to make the paint for stained glass windows.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Theophili, de diversis P267][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://archive.org/stream/proverbsalfred00skeagoog/proverbsalfred00skeagoog_djvu.txt&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.nl/books/about/Outcasts_Text.html?id=01LUWw4A7CgC&amp;redir_esc=y&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3001107.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://books.google.nl/books?id=wo4EAAAAYAAJ&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;q=blood&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19158" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5715" RevisionGUID="d879e714-8073-42a0-99c8-b630de6496c8" CreationDate="2019-06-04T22:28:31.357" UserId="6102" Text="The stepmother is a metaphor for death. She comes forth (Via Magic) to remind King Arthur of his wife Guinevere and is there to torment him. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The crone is Mordred, and she is seeking revenge on the King for banishing her to the wilderness and her eventual fall in the Battle of Camlann.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The child is Lohot, who grows to be great knight and traveler, although he had a falling out with his father Arthur, so chose to leave Camelot and seek his fortune elsewhere. He was considered beautiful by all who laid eyes on him and had a large following of knights and maidens. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Step mother is also smitten with Lohot so steals away in the night with her trusted aide Kay. She is eventually bedded by Lohot and dies giving birth to their daughter Lisanor. &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19159" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5716" RevisionGUID="2231b834-4ec6-491d-b911-9f697417bd2e" CreationDate="2019-06-05T12:32:01.937" UserId="4980" Text="I fail to remember the name of a myth I heard several years ago,in which a man marries a beautiful female warrior deceitfully.The woman isn't attracted to him and refuses to sleep with him.She challenges him to overpower her but he fails. He then solicits the assistance of a friend or brother who fights the woman in bed in a special cloak that renders him invisible. I do not remember whether the woman wins or is defeated. Does anyone remember having read or heard any such myth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19160" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5716" RevisionGUID="2231b834-4ec6-491d-b911-9f697417bd2e" CreationDate="2019-06-05T12:32:01.937" UserId="4980" Text="A myth involving a female warrior and a cloak that renders people invisible" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19161" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5716" RevisionGUID="2231b834-4ec6-491d-b911-9f697417bd2e" CreationDate="2019-06-05T12:32:01.937" UserId="4980" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19162" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5717" RevisionGUID="340260c5-40c0-4aa2-bcb3-30227d6ccaad" CreationDate="2019-06-05T14:06:04.957" UserId="5541" Text="I did some research on this [bible website](https://www.biblegateway.com/) and couldn't find any text indicating Satan as the ruler of Hell indeed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found that another name that can be used for hell is the Abyss:&#xD;&#xA;[Luke 8](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+8&amp;version=NIV)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 30 Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” “Legion,” he replied, because many demons had gone into him. 31 And they begged Jesus repeatedly not to order them to go into the Abyss.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where you can see that the demons don't want to go back (and internet gave it to me as a synonym).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When using this keyword instead, we can find that the &quot;ruler&quot; of this place is in fact Abbadon or Appollyon, the angel of the Abyss:&#xD;&#xA;[Revelation 9](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+9&amp;version=NIV)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 11 They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And we also can find that The-Devil aka Satan even ends up prisoner in this place:[Revelation 20](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+20&amp;version=NIV)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and  holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So no evidence in the bible (with the keywords I used) that Satan may have ruled over hell.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't think that this alone can be considered as an answer as I might have missed some points and that the bible is not the only source for Christianity beliefs.&#xD;&#xA;But At least it may avoid some hassle to people who want to look in this direction! " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19163" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5718" RevisionGUID="28fdb590-5a1b-4daf-a26d-a863666b5d77" CreationDate="2019-06-05T14:19:00.403" UserId="57" Text="The story you describe shares several elements with the story of the shieldmaiden Brunhild and Gunther (and Siegfried) in the *Nibelungenlied*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's a quick summary of the relevant part of the story from Wikipedia: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When Siegfried and Gunther arrive at Isenstein, Brunhild initially assumes that Siegfried is the suitor, but immediately loses interest in him once he claims that he is Gunther's vassal. With Siegfried's help, Gunther is able to accomplish all the feats of strength; although Brunhild initially looks like she might renege on the agreement, Siegfried quickly gathers his men from his kingdom in Nibelungenland and brings them to Isenstein. Gunther and Brunhild then agree to marry. The heroes return to Worms with Brunhild, and Siegfried marries Kriemhild at the same time that Brunhild marries Siegfried. Brunhild cries seeing this however, believing that the royal princess Kriemhild has been married to a vassal. On her wedding night, when Gunther attempts to sleep with Brunhild, Brunhild quickly overpowers Gunther, tying him up by his hands and feet with her belt and leaving him hanging on a hook until morning. Gunther is forced to rely on Siegfried again, who takes Gunther's shape using his Tarnkappe and is only able to subdue Brunhild due to the Tarnkappe granting him the strength of twelve men. Gunther is secretly present during all of this, and is able to confirm that Siegfried did not sleep with Brunhild. Once Siegfried has subdued Brunhild, Gunther takes Siegfried's place and takes Brunhild's virginity, which results in the loss of her superhuman strength. As a trophy, Siegfried takes Brunhild's ring and belt, which he later gives to Kriemhild.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Wikipedia contributors. (2019, May 29). Brunhild. In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 14:15, June 5, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brunhild&amp;oldid=899285895&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Tarnkappe][1] is a cloak of invisibility in German folklore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloak_of_invisibility#Tarnkappe" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19164" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5718" RevisionGUID="81bceead-53ab-44a1-9fb6-1a267422d36d" CreationDate="2019-06-05T14:24:03.820" UserId="57" Comment="added 132 characters in body" Text="The story you describe shares several elements with the story of the shield-maiden [Brunhild][1] and King Gunther (and the legendary Siegfried) in the *[The Song of the Nibelungs][4]*, a German epic poem. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's a quick summary of the relevant part of the story from Wikipedia: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When Siegfried and Gunther arrive at Isenstein, Brunhild initially assumes that Siegfried is the suitor, but immediately loses interest in him once he claims that he is Gunther's vassal. With Siegfried's help, Gunther is able to accomplish all the feats of strength; although Brunhild initially looks like she might renege on the agreement, Siegfried quickly gathers his men from his kingdom in Nibelungenland and brings them to Isenstein. Gunther and Brunhild then agree to marry. The heroes return to Worms with Brunhild, and Siegfried marries Kriemhild at the same time that Brunhild marries Siegfried. Brunhild cries seeing this however, believing that the royal princess Kriemhild has been married to a vassal. On her wedding night, when Gunther attempts to sleep with Brunhild, Brunhild quickly overpowers Gunther, tying him up by his hands and feet with her belt and leaving him hanging on a hook until morning. Gunther is forced to rely on Siegfried again, who takes Gunther's shape using his Tarnkappe and is only able to subdue Brunhild due to the Tarnkappe granting him the strength of twelve men. Gunther is secretly present during all of this, and is able to confirm that Siegfried did not sleep with Brunhild. Once Siegfried has subdued Brunhild, Gunther takes Siegfried's place and takes Brunhild's virginity, which results in the loss of her superhuman strength. As a trophy, Siegfried takes Brunhild's ring and belt, which he later gives to Kriemhild.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Wikipedia contributors. (2019, May 29). Brunhild. In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 14:15, June 5, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brunhild&amp;oldid=899285895&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Tarnkappe][5] is a cloak of invisibility in German folklore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brunhild&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nibelungenlied&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloak_of_invisibility#Tarnkappe" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19165" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5716" RevisionGUID="4a2b323c-defb-4060-8077-8caa91e7e251" CreationDate="2019-06-05T14:24:45.667" UserId="57" Comment="added 6 characters in body; edited title" Text="I fail to remember the name of a myth I heard several years ago, in which a man marries a beautiful female warrior deceitfully. The woman isn't attracted to him and refuses to sleep with him. She challenges him to overpower her but he fails. He then solicits the assistance of a friend or brother who fights the woman in bed in a special cloak that renders him invisible. I do not remember whether the woman wins or is defeated.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does anyone remember having read or heard any such myth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19166" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5716" RevisionGUID="4a2b323c-defb-4060-8077-8caa91e7e251" CreationDate="2019-06-05T14:24:45.667" UserId="57" Comment="added 6 characters in body; edited title" Text="Is there a myth involving a female warrior and a cloak that renders people invisible?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19167" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5710" RevisionGUID="2cdb7b34-2a1b-41a4-90ef-b0329bfd52d0" CreationDate="2019-06-06T06:52:37.033" UserId="2682" Comment="adjusted info" Text="The Actual Duration of the War&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Towards the end of the *Iliad*, whose action takes place in the tenth and final year of the Trojan War, Helen says (in Line 765 of Book 24) that &quot;this is now the twentieth year&quot; since she departed from Lakedaimon [Lacedaemon] with Paris. &quot;The words have puzzled the Scholiasts and commentators&quot;&lt;sup&gt;✭&lt;/sup&gt; for centuries because one might have expected the duration mentioned by her to be closer to the length of the war; but the war's length accounts for only half of the amount of time she's talking about.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Having been lost in ancient times, the portion of the work attributed to **Apollodorus** entitled the *Epitome* was discovered in 1891, and it contains a full explanation for this duration. For the Greeks the war had indeed lasted about twenty years. They had landed in Troas only nine years prior to the beginning of the *Iliad* and had engaged the Trojans immediately. However, they had first mustered up their forces to head for their enemy's territory in Asia eight years *before* their arrival in Troas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not really knowing their way there, combined with additional shenanigans that transpired, they landed in Mysia, mistakenly thinking that that was Troas, and eventually all ended up back home in Greece. They only managed to reassemble eight years after that debacle, which is narrated in *Epitome* 3.17-19ff. Prior to the first assembly, they had spent two years making preparations to build their army. So 2 years of prep + 8 years of reorientation &amp; *re*-prep + 10 years of combat = Helen's 20 years as mentioned in the *Iliad*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Akhilleus' [Achilles'] Age&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Just before the chaos at the first gathering ensues, the ***Epitome*** tells us (**3.16**):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So Agamemnon in person was in command of the whole army, and Akhilleus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was admiral, being **fifteen years old.**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[*Emphasis mine*]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Iliad* mentions nothing so specific about the ages of Akhilleus and Paris, but the *Epitome* does inform us of how old Akhilleus is when the timeline is set at eight years before the beginning of the siege of Troy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`15 + 8 = 23.` So Akhilleus is about **twenty-three years old** when the Greek army lands in Troas. Akhilleus dies in the last year of the war a decade later = about Age **33**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This also accounts for the pesky issue of the fact that Akhilleus' son Neoptolemos [Neoptolemus] arrives at Troy in the same year that the city falls, by then evidently a full-grown warrior of a man! If Neoptolemos was born in the same year of the first army gathering, or even the year after that (allowing that he could've been born in his father's absence), he would be roughly 17 or 18 years old when he helps to take Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Going Further Back: The Prophecy During the Boyhood of Akhilleus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Epitome* 3.3, Helen steals away in the night to go off to Troy with Paris when Hermione, her daughter by Menelaus, is nine years old. Two years after this, when the Greek army is assembled for the first time for their expedition to Troy, Akhilleus is fifteen. `15 - 2 = 13.` So Akhilleus is 13 when Hermione is 9.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lykomedes [Lycomedes] was king on the island of Skyros [Scyros], and by his daughter Deïdameia, Akhilleus became the father of Neoptolemos while he was living on the island. According to Apollodorus' *Bibliotheka* 3.13.8:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When Achilles was nine years old, Kalkhas [Calchas] declared that Troy could &#xD;&#xA;&gt; not be taken without him; so Thetis, foreseeing that it was fated he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; should perish if he went to the war, disguised him in female garb and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; entrusted him as a maiden to Lykomedes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This may sound like preparations for the Trojan War are already under way, however, if we crunch some numbers: `13 - 9 = 4`... it would appear that the prophet Kalkhas is making this declaration four years before Paris and Helen have ever even met, and presumably before anyone else, apart from himself and the gods (and perhaps other prophets or the like), knows that there is even going to be a war fought over Helen at Troy. It begs the question of who he is talking to at this point, and what they are to make of what he has to say.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It sounds as though Thetis herself obtains this information from Kalkhas' declaration. In Philostratus the Younger's *Imagines* 1, Thetis learns about Akhilleus' future from her father the sea-god Nereus, who is himself a renowned prophet. At the very least, the *Bibliotheka* has her being spurred into anxious action as a result of Kalkhas' declaration.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We need not take it as an anachronism that Kalkhas is four years too early. After all, it is a prophecy, and those tend to come in advance of the events they are predicting. And often enough they sound weird and random, with bits of information lacking enough context for them to make complete sense before the unfolding of the events to which they refer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Paris's Age&#xD;&#xA;-----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**{*Failed*} Attempt to Use Akhilleus' Early Childhood as the Guiding Reference-Point**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Paris's father Priamos [Priam] was young, Troy was besieged by Herakles [Hercules], who was assisted in this effort by Akhilleus's uncle Telamon, the brother of Peleus. Herakles and Telamon sacked the city and took Priamos's sister Hesione (Paris's aunt) as a war captive. She became Telamon's concubine and bore him a son, Teukros [Teucer]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Telamon also had a legitimate son, Aias [Ajax], who was born no more than a few years before this (as implied by Pindar's *Isthmian Ode* 6.25-35, taken together with Apollodorus' *Bibliotheka* 3.12.7, &amp; Schol. on Lycophron's *Alexandra* 455). Aias and his half-brother Teukros appear in the list of Helen's suitors in Apollodorus *Bibliotheka* 3.10.8. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles, Telamon and Peleus all participated in the expedition of the Argonauts, which seems, in Diodorus Siculus' *Bibliotheka Historika* 4.15.4, to take place also just a few years prior to Herakles' war against Troy and the birth of Teukros. According to the *Bibliotheka Historika*, the Argonauts set sail on their mission shortly after Herakles performed the eighth of his twelve *athloi* (labours/ tasks). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautika* 1, Akhilleus has a cameo as a baby or a young child at the time of this expedition, perhaps somewhere between the ages of 2 and 6. In a previous iteration of this Answer I worked out a calculation for the events leading up to the Trojan War attempting to account for Akhilleus already being alive during the voyage of the *Argo*, with Paris taking Helen to Troy only about a decade after this voyage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My calculation basically fell apart while struggling diligently to squeeze the second half of Herakles' career, during which period a staggering number of things happen, into half of that decade. Even more importantly than that, however, are Teukros and Aias, fairly major characters on the roster of Helen's suitors. Going by the calculations from the previous section, the suitors would have met at Sparta at least nine years before Paris came to take Helen. At this point, it should be reasonable to expect that Aias and Teukros, would at the least be young men, let's say around sixteen years old.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since it doesn't make sense to have these guys being born only a couple of years after the meeting they're supposed to have attended, I now see that the *Argonautika* (by Apollonius Rhodius) and the *Bibliotheka Historika* (by Diodorus Siculus) cannot be reconciled with each other. I *can*, on the other hand, run the works of Diodorus Siculus and Apollodorus side by side without too many acrobatics.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So I've decided to write off Akhilleus' cameo in the *Argonautika* as simply belonging to a variant version of the mythology. For the purposes of working out Paris's age, I was forced back to the drawing-board to cast about for other clues. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**A Different Approach**    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My previous approach to this part of the Question was somewhat convoluted, nonetheless it did assist me in arriving at this version. And after scrapping that preceding angle to the issue, I settled upon a much simpler anchor-point: the son of Paris. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like Akhilleus, Paris had a childhood sweetheart together with whom he too, when he was quite young, had a son. This intrigue of Paris does not receive mention in the *Iliad* but other mythographers tell us that Paris was already married when he met Helen, and even before he met Hera, Athena and Aphrodite.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also before he knew that he was a prince, Paris was betrothed to a Naiad named Oinone [Oenone], who bore him a son named Korythos [Corythus]. Paris abandoned both wife and son in pursuit of Helen, and after he had returned to Troy with the Lakedaimonian [Lacedaemonian] queen, as we know, the Greek army was eventually coming for him. As observed above, this army did not have immediate success finding its way to Troy. Oinone was apparently aware of this since she sent Korythos to them to help them navigate (going by Lycophron's *Alexandra* 57 [via Tzetzes' commentary]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Conon's *Narrations* 23, Oinone sends Korythos to Helen, and in Parthenius' *Erotika Pathemata* 34, Korythos &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; came to Troy to help the Trojans, and there fell in love with Helen.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; She indeed received him with the greatest warmth—he was of extreme&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beauty—but his father discovered his aims and killed him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By all accounts Korythos was at least a young man by the time of the war, and if we follow Lycophron on this, we was old enough to set out by himself to go meet a fleet of enemy ships and offer them directions which they seem to have received well enough. Reasonably I would say he should be at least fifteen years old at that point. This would be, perhaps, roundabout the year before the siege of Troy begins. (I.e. Korythos guides the Greeks to Troy and they attack in earnest when they land the following year.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we borrow the age calculations of Akhilleus himself from the second section above, let's say that Paris was also at least fifteen years old when he had Korythos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`15 + 15 = 30.` Paris is (at least) thirty years old the year before the Greeks make landfall in Troas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`30 + 10 = 40.` Paris dies at the age of forty in the last year of the Trojan War.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There isn't much difference in the final result if Paris is 20 at the birth of Korythos and/or if Korythos is five years younger than in the preceding calculation. Paris would be somewhere between 21 and 35 at the beginning of the siege, and between 31 and 45 at death.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;✭ &lt;sub&gt;From Footnote 4 on p. 187 of *Apollodorus: The Library, with an English Translation, in Two Volumes by Sir James George Frazer*. 1921. William Heinemann, London, &amp; G.P. Putnam's Sons, New York&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19169" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5710" RevisionGUID="ef50bcdb-ecd8-4f7e-89a7-007ef7bc9e35" CreationDate="2019-06-06T16:12:11.540" UserId="2682" Comment="adjusted info" Text="**The Actual Duration of the War**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Towards the end of the *Iliad*, whose action takes place in the tenth and final year of the Trojan War, Helen says (in Line 765 of Book 24) that &quot;this is now the twentieth year&quot; since she departed from Lakedaimon [Lacedaemon] with Paris. &quot;The words have puzzled the Scholiasts and commentators&quot;&lt;sup&gt;✭&lt;/sup&gt; for centuries because one might have expected the duration mentioned by her to be closer to the length of the war; but the war's length accounts for only half of the amount of time she's talking about.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Having been lost in ancient times, the portion of the work attributed to **Apollodorus** entitled the *Epitome* was discovered in 1891, and it contains a full explanation for this duration. For the Greeks the war had indeed lasted about twenty years. They had landed in Troas only nine years prior to the beginning of the *Iliad* and had engaged the Trojans immediately. However, they had first mustered up their forces to head for their enemy's territory in Asia eight years *before* their arrival in Troas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not really knowing their way there, combined with additional shenanigans that transpired, they landed in Mysia, mistakenly thinking that that was Troas, and eventually all ended up back home in Greece. They only managed to reassemble eight years after that debacle, which is narrated in *Epitome* 3.17-19ff. Prior to the first assembly, they had spent two years making preparations to build their army. So 2 years of prep + 8 years of reorientation &amp; *re*-prep + 10 years of combat = Helen's 20 years as mentioned in the *Iliad*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Akhilleus' [Achilles'] Age**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Just before the chaos at the first gathering ensues, the ***Epitome*** tells us (**3.16**):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So Agamemnon in person was in command of the whole army, and Akhilleus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was admiral, being **fifteen years old.**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[*Emphasis mine*]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Iliad* mentions nothing so specific about the ages of Akhilleus and Paris, but the *Epitome* does inform us of how old Akhilleus is when the timeline is set at eight years before the beginning of the siege of Troy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`15 + 8 = 23.` So Akhilleus is about **twenty-three years old** when the Greek army lands in Troas. Akhilleus dies in the last year of the war a decade later = about Age **33**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This also accounts for the pesky issue of the fact that Akhilleus' son Neoptolemos [Neoptolemus] arrives at Troy in the same year that the city falls, by then evidently a full-grown warrior of a man! If Neoptolemos was born in the same year of the first army gathering, or even the year after that (allowing that he could've been born in his father's absence), he would be roughly 17 or 18 years old when he helps to take Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Paris's Age**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like Akhilleus, Paris, when he was quite young, had a son. Paris's childhood sweetheart was a Naiad named Oinone [Oenone]. His intrigue with her does not receive mention in the *Iliad* but other mythographers tell us that Paris was already married to Oinone when he met Helen, and even before he met Hera, Athena and Aphrodite.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The son of Paris and Oinone was called Korythos [Corythus], who, together with his mother, was abandoned by Paris when the Trojan prince left Asia in pursuit of Helen. After Paris had returned to Troy with the Lakedaimonian [Lacedaemonian] queen, as we know, the Greek army was eventually coming for him. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As observed above, this army did not have immediate success finding its way to Troy. Oinone, perhaps because she was a prophetess (as in Apollodorus' *Bibliotheka* and Ovid's *Heroides*), was apparently aware of this since she sent Korythos to them to help them navigate (going by Lycophron's *Alexandra* 57 [via Tzetzes' commentary]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Conon's *Narrations* 23, Oinone sends Korythos to Helen, while in Parthenius' *Erotika Pathemata* 34, Korythos &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; came to Troy to help the Trojans, and there fell in love with Helen.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; She indeed received him with the greatest warmth—he was of extreme&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beauty—but his father discovered his aims and killed him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By all accounts Korythos was at least a young man by the time of the war, and if we follow Lycophron on this, we was old enough to set out by himself to go meet a fleet of enemy ships and offer them directions which they, presumably, received well enough. I would say that, reasonably, he should be at least fifteen years old at that point. This would be, perhaps, roundabout the year before the siege of Troy begins. (I.e. Korythos guides the Greeks to Troy and they attack in earnest when they land the following year.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we borrow the age calculations of Akhilleus himself from the second section above, let's say that Paris was also at least fifteen years old when he had Korythos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`15 + 15 = 30.` Paris is (at least) thirty years old the year before the Greeks make landfall in Troas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`30 + 10 = 40.` Paris dies at around the age of forty in the last year of the Trojan War.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There isn't much difference in the final result if Paris is 20 at the birth of Korythos and/or if Korythos is five years younger than in the preceding calculation. Paris would be somewhere between 21 and 35 at the beginning of the siege, and between 31 and 45 at death.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;✭ &lt;sub&gt;From Footnote 4 on p. 187 of *Apollodorus: The Library, with an English Translation, in Two Volumes by Sir James George Frazer*. 1921. William Heinemann, London, &amp; G.P. Putnam's Sons, New York&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19170" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5710" RevisionGUID="ccbaa403-8b41-4f3c-862d-215dc9ec0406" CreationDate="2019-06-06T17:08:22.937" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; added info" Text="**The Actual Duration of the War**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Towards the end of the *Iliad*, whose action takes place in the tenth and final year of the Trojan War, Helen says (in Line 765 of Book 24) that &quot;this is now the twentieth year&quot; since she departed from Lakedaimon [Lacedaemon] with Paris. &quot;The words have puzzled the Scholiasts and commentators&quot;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; for centuries because one might have expected the duration mentioned by her to be closer to the length of the war; but the war's length accounts for only half of the amount of time she's talking about.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Having been lost in ancient times, the portion of the work attributed to **Apollodorus** entitled the *Epitome* was discovered in 1891, and it contains a full explanation for this duration. For the Greeks the war had indeed lasted about twenty years. They had landed in Troas only nine years prior to the beginning of the *Iliad* and had engaged the Trojans immediately. However, they had first mustered up their forces to head for their enemy's territory in Asia eight years *before* their arrival in Troas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not really knowing their way there, combined with additional shenanigans that transpired, they landed in Mysia, mistakenly thinking that that was Troas, and eventually all ended up back home in Greece. They only managed to reassemble eight years after that debacle, which is narrated in *Epitome* 3.17-19ff. Prior to the first assembly, they had spent two years making preparations to build their army. So 2 years of prep + 8 years of reorientation &amp; *re*-prep + 10 years of combat = Helen's 20 years as mentioned in the *Iliad*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Akhilleus' [Achilles'] Age**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Just before the chaos at the first gathering ensues, the ***Epitome*** tells us (**3.16**):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So Agamemnon in person was in command of the whole army, and Akhilleus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was admiral, being **fifteen years old.**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[*Emphasis mine*]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Iliad* mentions nothing so specific about the ages of Akhilleus and Paris, but the *Epitome* does inform us of how old Akhilleus is when the timeline is set at eight years before the beginning of the siege of Troy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`15 + 8 = 23.` So Akhilleus is about **twenty-three years old** when the Greek army lands in Troas. Akhilleus dies in the last year of the war a decade later = about Age **33**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This also accounts for the pesky issue of the fact that Akhilleus' son Neoptolemos [Neoptolemus] arrives at Troy in the same year that the city falls, by then evidently a full-grown warrior of a man! If Neoptolemos was born in the same year of the first army gathering, or even the year after that (allowing that he could've been born in his father's absence), he would be roughly 17 or 18 years old when he helps to take Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Paris's Age**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like Akhilleus, Paris, when he was quite young, had a son. Paris's childhood sweetheart was a Naiad named Oinone [Oenone]. His intrigue with her does not receive mention in the *Iliad* but other mythographers tell us that Paris was already married to Oinone when he met Helen, and even before he met Hera, Athena and Aphrodite.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The son of Paris and Oinone was called Korythos [Corythus], who, together with his mother, was abandoned by Paris when the Trojan prince left Asia in pursuit of Helen. After Paris had returned to Troy with the Lakedaimonian [Lacedaemonian] queen, as we know, the Greek army was eventually coming for him. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As observed above, this army did not have immediate success finding its way to Troy. Oinone, perhaps because she was a prophetess (as in Apollodorus' *Bibliotheka* and Ovid's *Heroides*), was apparently aware of this since she sent Korythos to the Greeks to help them navigate (going by Lycophron's *Alexandra* 57 [via Tzetzes' commentary]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Conon's *Narrations* 23, Oinone sends Korythos to Helen, while in Parthenius' *Erotika Pathemata* 34, Korythos &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; came to Troy to help the Trojans, and there fell in love with Helen.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; She indeed received him with the greatest warmth—he was of extreme&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beauty—but his father discovered his aims and killed him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By all accounts Korythos was at least a young man by the time of the war, and if we follow Lycophron on this, we was old enough to set out by himself to go meet a fleet of enemy ships and offer them directions which they, presumably, received well enough. I would say that, reasonably, he should be at least fifteen years old at that point. This would be, perhaps, roundabout the year before the siege of Troy begins. (I.e. Korythos guides the Greeks to Troy and they attack in earnest when they land the following year.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we borrow the age calculations of Akhilleus himself from the breakdown above, let's say that Paris was also at least fifteen years old when he had Korythos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`15 + 15 = 30.` Paris is (at least) thirty years old the year before the Greeks make landfall in Troas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`30 + 10 = 40.` Paris dies at around the age of forty in the last year of the Trojan War.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There isn't much difference in the final result if Paris is 20 at the birth of Korythos and/or if Korythos is five years younger than in the preceding calculation. Paris would be somewhere between 21 and 35 at the beginning of the siege, and between 31 and 45 at death.&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Footnote 4 on p. 187 of *Apollodorus: The Library, with an English Translation, in Two Volumes by Sir James George Frazer*. 1921. William Heinemann, London, &amp; G.P. Putnam's Sons, New York&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. Going with the higher end of this; and assuming that Akhilleus was born in the same year as his parents' wedding; and allowing that Paris was about, say, eighteen when he adjudicated the beauty contest of the goddesses, this would mean that the goddesses had been squabbling for at least six years, between that inauspicious wedding and their fateful meeting with the Trojan prince. The calculations for this are as follows:&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;`45 - 33 = 12.` Paris is (at most) 12 years older than&#xD;&#xA;   Akhilleus (based on their ages at death).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;`18 - 12 = 6` years between the wedding of Peleus and Thetis (if Akhilleus is born same year as this) &amp; the Judgement of Paris (if Paris is 18 on the occasion).&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19171" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5720" RevisionGUID="6f59b738-7116-4d9a-b8c8-fa46087b8f1a" CreationDate="2019-06-06T18:26:26.450" UserId="5726" Text="&lt;sub&gt;The word 'one-eyed' is not to be taken literally.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Allah says in the Holy Qur'an &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;whoever is blind in this world will be blind hereafter&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Blindness here evidently means spiritual blindness. Thus the word under discussion will mean that Dajjal will have no spiritual sight, although his worldly sight will be very sharp; and along with it, he will discover such subtle methods resulting in such wonderful performances, that he will almost appear as one claiming divinity. &#xD;&#xA;But he will have no spiritual vision whatsoever.&lt;sub&gt;[Muhammad Ali. (1992) The Antichrist and Gog and Magog Archived 1 July 2018 at the Wayback Machine, Ohio: Ahmadiyya Anjuman-i Ishāʿat-i Islām][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Dajjal's (antichrist) blindness is supposed to be a obvious giveaway. The Dajjal has many powers and will try to convince people he is Allah.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ubadah ibn As-Samit][2] wrote: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Verily, I have told you so much about the False Messiah that I am&#xD;&#xA;&gt; afraid you will not understand. Verily, the False Messiah is a short&#xD;&#xA;&gt; man, pigeon toed, curly haired, with one eye that is sightless,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; neither protruding nor sunken. If you are confused about him, then&#xD;&#xA;&gt; know that your Lord does not have one eye.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://web.archive.org/web/20180701133728/http://aaiil.org/text/books/mali/gog/antichristgogmagog.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubada_ibn_as-Samit" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19172" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5720" RevisionGUID="d3cee8b3-66e6-41a5-9725-1800ad3021a0" CreationDate="2019-06-06T19:37:50.513" UserId="5726" Comment="deleted 64 characters in body" Text="The word 'one-eyed' is not to be taken literally&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Allah says in the Holy Qur'an &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;whoever is blind in this world will be blind hereafter&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Blindness here evidently means spiritual blindness. Thus the word under discussion will mean that Dajjal will have no spiritual sight, although his worldly sight will be very sharp; and along with it, he will discover such subtle methods resulting in such wonderful performances, that he will almost appear as one claiming divinity. &#xD;&#xA;But he will have no spiritual vision whatsoever.&lt;sub&gt;[Muhammad Ali. (1992) The Antichrist and Gog and Magog Archived 1 July 2018 at the Wayback Machine, Ohio: Ahmadiyya Anjuman-i Ishāʿat-i Islām][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Dajjal's (antichrist) blindness is supposed to be a obvious giveaway. The Dajjal has many powers and will try to convince people he is Allah.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ubadah ibn As-Samit][2] wrote: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Verily, I have told you so much about the False Messiah that I am&#xD;&#xA;&gt; afraid you will not understand. Verily, the False Messiah is a short&#xD;&#xA;&gt; man, pigeon toed, curly haired, with one eye that is sightless,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; neither protruding nor sunken. If you are confused about him, then&#xD;&#xA;&gt; know that your Lord does not have one eye.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://web.archive.org/web/20180701133728/http://aaiil.org/text/books/mali/gog/antichristgogmagog.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubada_ibn_as-Samit" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19173" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5710" RevisionGUID="dd12ebcf-a397-462f-bd43-412f5b1e9819" CreationDate="2019-06-06T23:56:02.910" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; tweaked some details" Text="**The Actual Duration of the War**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Towards the end of the *Iliad*, whose action takes place in the tenth and final year of the Trojan War, Helen says (in Line 765 of Book 24) that &quot;this is now the twentieth year&quot; since she departed from Lakedaimon [Lacedaemon] with Paris. &quot;The words have puzzled the Scholiasts and commentators&quot;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; for centuries because one might have expected the duration mentioned by her to be closer to the length of the war; but the war's length accounts for only half of the amount of time she's talking about.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Having been lost in ancient times, the portion of the work attributed to **Apollodorus** entitled the *Epitome* was discovered in 1891, and it contains a full explanation for this duration. For the Greeks the war had indeed lasted about twenty years. They had landed in Troas only nine years prior to the beginning of the *Iliad* and had engaged the Trojans immediately. However, they had first mustered up their forces to head for their enemy's territory in Asia eight years *before* their arrival in Troas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not really knowing their way there, combined with additional shenanigans that transpired, they landed in Mysia, mistakenly thinking that that was Troas, and eventually all ended up back home in Greece. They only managed to reassemble eight years after that debacle, which is narrated in *Epitome* 3.17-19ff. Prior to the first assembly, they had spent two years making preparations to build their army. So 2 years of prep + 8 years of reorientation &amp; *re*-prep + 10 years of combat = Helen's 20 years as mentioned in the *Iliad*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Akhilleus' [Achilles'] Age**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Just before the chaos at the first gathering ensues, the ***Epitome*** tells us (**3.16**):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So Agamemnon in person was in command of the whole army, and Akhilleus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was admiral, being **fifteen years old.**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[*Emphasis mine*]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Iliad* mentions nothing so specific about the ages of Akhilleus and Paris, but the *Epitome* does inform us of how old Akhilleus is when the timeline is set at eight years before the beginning of the siege of Troy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`15 + 8 = 23.` So Akhilleus is about **twenty-three years old** when the Greek army lands in Troas. Akhilleus dies in the last year of the war a decade later = about Age **33**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This also accounts for the pesky issue of the fact that Akhilleus' son Neoptolemos [Neoptolemus] arrives at Troy in the same year that the city falls, by then evidently a full-grown warrior of a man! If Neoptolemos was born in the same year of the first army gathering, or even the year after that (allowing that he could've been born in his father's absence), he would be roughly 17 or 18 years old when he helps to take Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Paris's Age**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like Akhilleus, Paris, when he was quite young, had a son. Paris's childhood sweetheart was a Naiad named Oinone [Oenone]. His intrigue with her does not receive mention in the *Iliad*, but other mythographers tell us that Paris was already married to Oinone when he met Helen, and even before he met Hera, Athena and Aphrodite.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The son of Paris and Oinone was called Korythos [Corythus], who, together with his mother, was abandoned by Paris when the Trojan prince left Asia in pursuit of Helen. After Paris had returned to Troy with the Lakedaimonian [Lacedaemonian] queen, as we know, the Greek army was eventually coming for him. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As observed above, this army did not enjoy immediate success finding its way to Troy. Oinone, perhaps because she was a prophetess (as in Apollodorus' *Bibliotheka* and Ovid's *Heroides*), was apparently aware of this since she sent Korythos to the Greeks to help them navigate (going by Lycophron's *Alexandra* 57 [via Tzetzes' commentary]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Conon's *Narrations* 23, Oinone sends Korythos to Helen, while in Parthenius' *Erotika Pathemata* 34, Korythos &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; came to Troy to help the Trojans, and there fell in love with Helen.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; She indeed received him with the greatest warmth—he was of extreme&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beauty—but his father discovered his aims and killed him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By all accounts Korythos was at least a young man by the time of the war, and if we follow Lycophron on this, we was old enough to set out by himself to go meet a fleet of enemy ships and offer them directions which they, presumably, received well enough. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would say that, reasonably, he should have been at least fifteen years old at that point. This would be, perhaps, roundabout the year before the siege of Troy begins. (I.e. Korythos guided the Greeks to Troy and they attacked in earnest when they landed the following year.) If we borrow the age calculations of Akhilleus from the breakdown above, let's say that Paris was also at least fifteen years old when he had Korythos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`15 + 15 = 30.` Paris is (at least) thirty years old the year before the Greeks make landfall in Troas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`30 + 10 = 40.` Paris dies at around the age of forty in the last year of the Trojan War.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There isn't much difference in the final result if Paris is 20 at the birth of Korythos and/or if Korythos is five years younger than in the preceding calculation (if we allow that Korythos can be younger in the versions of his story which don't involve him granting help to the Greek military). In the higher estimate, Paris would be about 35 at the beginning of the siege, and 45 at death.&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Footnote 4 on p. 187 of *Apollodorus: The Library, with an English Translation, in Two Volumes by Sir James George Frazer*. 1921. William Heinemann, London, &amp; G.P. Putnam's Sons, New York&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. Assuming that Akhilleus was born in the same year as his parents' wedding; and allowing that Paris was about, say, eighteen when he adjudicated the beauty contest of the goddesses, this would mean that the goddesses had been squabbling for at least six years, between that inauspicious wedding and their fateful meeting with the Trojan prince. The calculations for this are as follows:&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;`45 - 33 = 12.` Paris is (at most) 12 years older than&#xD;&#xA;   Akhilleus (based on their ages at death).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;`18 - 12 = 6` years between the wedding of Peleus and Thetis &amp; the Judgement of Paris.&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19175" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5693" RevisionGUID="e7b6f886-a384-409f-a0e6-b631d5da7984" CreationDate="2019-06-09T13:50:48.443" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved formatting" Text="They represent the Tetramorph, the 4 classical elements in the West. More info:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;A tetramorph is a symbolic arrangement of four differing elements, or the combination of four disparate elements in one unit. The term is derived from the Greek tetra, meaning four, and morph, shape.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In Christian art, the tetramorph is the union of the symbols of the Four Evangelists, derived from the four living creatures in the Book of Ezekiel, into a single figure or, more commonly, a group of four figures. Each of the four Evangelists is associated with one of the living creatures, usually shown with wings. The most common association, but not the original or only, is: Matthew the man, Mark the lion, Luke the ox, and John the eagle. In Christian art and iconography, Evangelist portraits are often accompanied by tetramorphs, or the symbols alone used to represent them. Evangelist portraits that depict them in their human forms are often accompanied by their symbolic creatures, and Christ in Majesty is often shown surrounded by the four symbols.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source: [Tetramorph (Wikpedia)][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetramorph" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19186" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="5711" RevisionGUID="b929a009-5e05-44d0-84d7-0e8e32da5184" CreationDate="2019-06-12T13:30:12.413" UserId="-1" Comment="102" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:5726,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Tom&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:3230,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Girsan Virlee&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:967,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;bleh&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:2807,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Rodia&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="19191" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5726" RevisionGUID="2921a5d5-7fd6-4f51-be39-7eca07ca06e5" CreationDate="2019-06-14T12:17:44.620" UserId="1317" Text="In short, you're expecting too much. It's always a mistake to expect mythology to be internally consistent. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mythology is not a fantasy novel or an RPG, with consistent worldbuilding and character development. What we have instead are a variety of fragments, the ones that have survived millennia of history, recopying, and reinterpretation through the ages, from different places, different peoples, different authors, with different motives.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some of these fragments are sacred traditions, some are more literary, some are folktales, some are just good yarns somebody made up. Some of the authors (such as Homer and Hesiod) may be themselves be mythical. Misattribution is common (otherwise why would we now have to talk about &quot;Second-Isaiah&quot; or &quot;Pseudo-Appollodorus&quot;)? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I recall one of my college professors telling us about a strange form of syncretism surrounding the myth of Herakles: Every city-state and village in ancient Greece had their stories of local heroes and their deeds, but as the years passed, and the cult of a deified Herakles grew, more and more of the acts in stories became attributed to Herakles instead of the people who may have originally done them. This was well before Joseph Campbell and his Hero of a Thousand Faces. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So again, you should expect (and embrace) contradictions as normal when studying mythology. They're part of the allure. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19193" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5728" RevisionGUID="4d8a05d2-f866-4c13-8fe3-03c0e927476f" CreationDate="2019-06-15T03:14:45.517" UserId="6137" Text="I had this weird dream including some kind of ghost rats, at first there was this noise they make that was like an indication that the ghost rats were there. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You cant see them and you can only hear them. When they attack they show themselves for a bit to be able to bite people. I think theyre intangible when theyre invisible so they cant be affected and cant affect people. So the only way to kill them was when they appear to attack people, and a single bite kills you in seconds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So is there a creature like that in lores and legends? Im actually so curious about them right now." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19194" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5728" RevisionGUID="4d8a05d2-f866-4c13-8fe3-03c0e927476f" CreationDate="2019-06-15T03:14:45.517" UserId="6137" Text="Is there a supernatural rat like this?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19195" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5728" RevisionGUID="4d8a05d2-f866-4c13-8fe3-03c0e927476f" CreationDate="2019-06-15T03:14:45.517" UserId="6137" Text="|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19196" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5729" RevisionGUID="821b892c-b40b-48ff-baec-981536c1f887" CreationDate="2019-06-15T04:17:09.643" UserId="6138" Text="Another way to deduce the age of Paris is from the story that Paris killed his son Korythos when he found Korythos and Helen together.  This implies that Paris was jealous because he consider Korythos old enough to be sexy.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So if Korythos was at least 14 years. old, and if Paris was at least 14 years older than his son Korythos, he should have been at least 28 during that incident, which could have been years before the end of the Trojan War.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or assume that Korythos was about 20 to 30 years old at the time and that Paris was about 20 to 30 years older than his son Korythos.  Thus Paris should have been 40 to 60 years old when he killed Korythos according to that story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Adinkra's answer based on the age of his son Korythos calculates that Paris was about 30 when the Greeks landed at Troy and 40 when he died.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Adinkra's answer also calculates that Achilles should have been about 23 when the Greeks landed at Troy and about 33 when he died in the last year of the Trojan War.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Assuming that Paris was a young man about 20 to 30 years old at the time of the Judgement of Paris, as he is usually depicted, And if Achilles was born after the Judgement of Paris, and if Achilles was 33 years old when he died as in Adinkra's answer, Paris should have been about 53 to 63 years old when he killed Achilles, soon before Paris died. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And the problem is that Paris is usually depicted as a young man about 20 to 30 years old, often in depictions of events in the last year of the Trojan War, such as scenes from the *Iliad*, or the death of Achilles. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And that tends to imply that the age of Paris should have been a negative number when he ran off with Helen or when he made the Judgement of Paris!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So possibly some of the data used to estimate the age of Paris come from stories that are not part of the main myth cycle and can be disregarded.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even if one assumes that Achilles was born years before the Judgement of Paris, the gods taking many years to find a naive mortal to trick into making the Judgement of Paris, the Judgement of Paris still has to be before Paris and Helen run off to troy, which has to be before the Greeks begin the Trojan War twenty years before the death of Paris and the Fall of Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So if Paris was 20 to 30 years old at his death in the last year of the Trojan war, he should have been aged 0 to 10 years old at the time of the Judgement of Paris and the time he ran off with Helen to Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So I think that it would make chronological sense to depict Paris as a naive child when he is suckered into making the Judgement of Paris, and Paris and Helen as gullible children or at most teenagers when they follow the advice of the Goddess Aphrodite and her assurances that everything will work out all right (&quot;after all, what's the worst thing that could possibly happen&quot;) and run away to Troy." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19197" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5729" RevisionGUID="f23b0047-c2c3-4e26-a3ed-fb76112468ee" CreationDate="2019-06-15T04:22:36.980" UserId="6138" Comment="additions &amp; corrections" Text="Another way to deduce the age of Paris is from the story that Paris killed his son Korythos when he found Korythos and Helen together.  This implies that Paris was jealous because he consider Korythos old enough to be sexy.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So if Korythos was at least 14 years. old, and if Paris was at least 14 years older than his son Korythos, he should have been at least 28 during that incident, which could have been years before the end of the Trojan War.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or assume that Korythos was about 20 to 30 years old at the time and that Paris was about 20 to 30 years older than his son Korythos.  Thus Paris should have been 40 to 60 years old when he killed Korythos according to that story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Adinkra's answer based on the age of his son Korythos calculates that Paris was about 30 when the Greeks landed at Troy and 40 when he died.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Adinkra's answer also calculates that Achilles should have been about 23 when the Greeks landed at Troy and about 33 when he died in the last year of the Trojan War.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Assuming that Paris was a young man about 20 to 30 years old at the time of the Judgement of Paris, as he is usually depicted, And if Achilles was born after the Judgement of Paris, and if Achilles was 33 years old when he died as in Adinkra's answer, Paris should have been about 53 to 63 years old when he killed Achilles, soon before Paris died. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And the problem is that Paris is usually depicted as a young man about 20 to 30 years old, often in depictions of events in the last year of the Trojan War, such as scenes from the *Iliad*, or the death of Achilles. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And that tends to imply that the age of Paris should have been a negative number when he ran off with Helen or when he made the Judgement of Paris!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So possibly some of the data used to estimate the age of Paris come from stories that are not part of the main myth cycle and can be disregarded.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even if one assumes that Achilles was born years before the Judgement of Paris, the gods taking many years after the marriage of Achilles's parents to find a naive mortal to trick into making the Judgement of Paris, the Judgement of Paris still has to be before Paris and Helen run off to troy, which has to be before the Greeks begin the Trojan War twenty years before the death of Paris and the Fall of Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So if Paris was 20 to 30 years old at his death in the last year of the Trojan war, he should have been aged 0 to 10 years old at the time of the Judgement of Paris and the time he ran off with Helen to Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So I think that it would make chronological sense to depict Paris as a naive child when he is suckered into making the Judgement of Paris, and Paris and Helen as gullible children or at most teenagers when they follow the advice of the Goddess Aphrodite and her assurances that everything will work out all right (&quot;after all, what's the worst thing that could possibly happen&quot;) and run away to Troy." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19212" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="2083" RevisionGUID="9b05c860-58f1-41f4-b13d-477f6dca7517" CreationDate="2019-06-16T20:17:29.957" UserId="183" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:183,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;HDE 226868&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="19220" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5728" RevisionGUID="d7e3c6b8-4260-465a-b2b1-69a124fc35d6" CreationDate="2019-06-17T21:55:55.713" UserId="1241" Comment="added 9 characters in body" Text="I had this weird dream including some kind of ghost rats, at first there was this noise they make that was like an indication that the ghost rats were there. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can not see them and you can only hear them. When they attack they show themselves for a bit to be able to bite people. I think they’re intangible when theyre invisible so they cant be affected and can not affect people. So the only way to kill them was when they appear to attack people, and a single bite kills you in seconds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So is there a creature like that in lores and legends? I am actually so curious about them right now." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19221" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5734" RevisionGUID="cd49be65-82c4-4115-8081-77ae78ef05e7" CreationDate="2019-06-17T22:16:30.927" UserId="1241" Text="**Why is Satan commonly believed to rule in hell?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some believe Satan is a Seraphim and chief yof the sinning angels, is probably the highest of all the angels. There are some who think that Lucifer was highest only among the rebel angels in hell.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This answer will be based on the Catholic traditions in regards to Satan and the nine choirs of angels.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although it is now generally accepted that there are nine choirs of angels and each choir is of angel is different and ranked accordingly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; During the Middle Ages, many schemes were proposed, some drawing on and expanding on Pseudo-Dionysius, others suggesting completely different classifications. According to medieval Christian theologians, the angels are organized into several orders, or &quot;Angelic Choirs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pseudo-Dionysius (On the Celestial Hierarchy) and Thomas Aquinas (Summa Theologica) drew on passages from the New Testament, specifically Ephesians 1:21 and Colossians 1:16, to develop a schema of three Hierarchies, Spheres or Triads of angels, with each Hierarchy containing three Orders or Choirs. Although both authors drew on the New Testament, the Biblical canon is relatively silent on the subject, and these hierarchies are considered less definitive than biblical material.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Choirs in medieval theology**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; St. Thomas Aquinas in Summa Theologica (1225–1274):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1.Seraphim, Cherubim, and Thrones;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2.Dominations, Virtues, and Powers;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 3.Principalities, Archangels, and Angels. - [Christian angelology (Wikipedia)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_angelology)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;St. Thomas Aquinas' list is by far the most widely accepted list of angelic choirs and places the Seraphic order of angel as being at the highest level of angels followed by the Cherubim, and so on. According to St Thomas:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1.The angels that rebelled and became demons did not lose their nature or their connatural gifts. They cast away, by their sin, the grace in which they were created. They did not cast away the beatific vision, for they never had it. Now, if we think of angelic orders as orders of angels in glory, then, of course, there are no orders of bad angels. But if we consider angelic orders as order of angelic nature simply, there are orders among the demons.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2.Certainly, there is a precedence among bad angels; there is a subjection of some to others.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 3.Demons of superior nature do not enlighten inferior demons; enlightenment here could only mean the manifestation of truth with reference to God, and the fallen angels have perversely and permanently turned away from God. But demons can speak to one another, that is, they can make known their thoughts to one another, that is, they can make known their thoughts to one another, for this ability belongs to the angelic nature which the demons retain.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4.The nearer creatures are to God the greater is their rule over other creatures. Therefore, the good angels rule and control the demons. - [ORDERS AMONG THE FALLEN ANGELS](http://www.jesus-passion.com/angels.htm)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus stated it only makes sense that Satan was a Seraphim, for surely some of the Seraphim fell in great revolt against God. Although one can not say with certainty it is generally believed Satan was a Seraphim.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **SIN OF THE FALLEN ANGELS**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 3.Lucifer who became Satan, leader of the fallen angels, wished to be as God. This prideful desire was not a wish to be equal to God, for Satan knew by his natural knowledge that equality of creature with creator is utterly impossible. Besides, no creature actually desires to destroy itself, even to become something greater. On this point man sometimes deceives himself by a trick of imagination; he imagines himself to be another and greater being, and yet it is himself that is somehow this other being. But an angel has no sense-faculty of imagination to abuse in this fashion. The angelic intellect, with its clear knowledge, makes such self-deception impossible. Lucifer knew that to be equal with God, he would have to be God, and he knew perfectly that this could not be. What he wanted was to be as God; he wished to be like God in a way not suited to his nature, such as to create things by his own power, or to achieve final beatitude without God's help, or to have command over others in a way proper to God alone.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4.**Lucifer, chief of the sinning angels, was probably the highest of all the angels. But there are some who think that Lucifer was highest only among the rebel angels.** - [ANGELS: FROM THE TEACHINGS OF SAINT THOMAS AQUINAS](http://www.jesus-passion.com/angels.htm)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19227" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5736" RevisionGUID="4db41e8a-bfcc-4f43-bfd7-61b6280d8614" CreationDate="2019-06-18T20:12:02.650" UserDisplayName="user4660" Text="Is there a tale or a legend about some inconsistent person? Some young and ambitious man, who want a lot of fame and fortune, but don't know exactly how to reach that. Who demonstrates in his actions and deeds aspiration to reach the target, but have no enough means for that, knowledge and experience.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**OR**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a tale or a legend, which describes personal emotional, mental and finally physical tragedy of the man, who haven't compared his wishes with reality and finally reached the hell?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19228" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5736" RevisionGUID="4db41e8a-bfcc-4f43-bfd7-61b6280d8614" CreationDate="2019-06-18T20:12:02.650" UserDisplayName="user4660" Text="Legend about inconsistent person" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19229" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5736" RevisionGUID="4db41e8a-bfcc-4f43-bfd7-61b6280d8614" CreationDate="2019-06-18T20:12:02.650" UserDisplayName="user4660" Text="|myth-identification|mythohistory|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19231" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5736" RevisionGUID="e787eace-06a2-4acb-8876-c7ea30e3a804" CreationDate="2019-06-19T14:12:39.233" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="added 210 characters in body" Text="Is there a myth or a legend about some inconsistent person? Some young and ambitious man, who want a lot of fame and fortune, but don't know exactly how to reach that. Who demonstrates in his actions and deeds aspiration to reach the target, but have no enough means for that, knowledge and experience.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**OR**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a myth or a legend, which describes personal emotional, mental and finally physical tragedy of the man, who haven't compared his wishes with reality and finally reached the hell?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am looking for a myth or a legend representing that idea, but only found [The Tale of the Fisherman and the Fish][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tale_of_the_Fisherman_and_the_Fish" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19232" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5737" RevisionGUID="42ea9fc6-6bc9-4dec-bfc6-31cf5be56a41" CreationDate="2019-06-19T15:23:55.347" UserId="6153" Text="I have at some point in my life encountered a claim that according to some islanders' myths, octopodes are the only survivors from a previous world, and managed to squeeze through a rift between worlds when our world created and the previous one was about to be destroyed. If I recall correctly, the story is claimed to originate in the Pacific.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Assuming it does exist, **which creation myth tells that story?** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm interested in finding the creation myth in question (either as an overview, adaptation, or translation). Finding the name of the previous world would also be something I'm interested in." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19233" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5737" RevisionGUID="42ea9fc6-6bc9-4dec-bfc6-31cf5be56a41" CreationDate="2019-06-19T15:23:55.347" UserId="6153" Text="In What Myth the Octopus Hails from a Previous World?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19234" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5737" RevisionGUID="42ea9fc6-6bc9-4dec-bfc6-31cf5be56a41" CreationDate="2019-06-19T15:23:55.347" UserId="6153" Text="|myth-identification|creation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19235" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5738" RevisionGUID="b90544ca-4670-40fa-8fe1-adb1f2c7a03f" CreationDate="2019-06-20T00:44:01.573" UserId="6154" Text="Are there any other instances, besides the initial moment of the beginning, where Chaos is referenced in ancient Greek Mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19236" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5738" RevisionGUID="b90544ca-4670-40fa-8fe1-adb1f2c7a03f" CreationDate="2019-06-20T00:44:01.573" UserId="6154" Text="Stories that refernce Chaos: Greek" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19237" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5738" RevisionGUID="b90544ca-4670-40fa-8fe1-adb1f2c7a03f" CreationDate="2019-06-20T00:44:01.573" UserId="6154" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19241" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5740" RevisionGUID="458a4d80-398c-4c5a-ab98-b23ef4c91541" CreationDate="2019-06-20T08:39:38.137" UserId="771" Text="Looks like ***Kumulipo***, an 18th-century chant in the Hawaiian language telling a creation story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumulipo), the summary of the story is,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the *Kumulipo* the world was created over a cosmic night. This is not just one night, but many nights over time. The ancient Hawaiian *kahunas* and priests of the Hawaiian religion would recite the *Kumulipo* during the *makahiki* season, honoring the god Lono.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [...]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The *Kumulipo* is a total of 2,102 lines long, in honor of Kalaninuiamamao, who created peace for all when he was born. There was a lot of fighting between his ʻI and Keawe family, who were cousins so his birth stopped the two from feuding. The *Kumulipo* is a cosmogonic genealogy, which means that it relates to the stars and the moon. Out of the 2102 lines, it has 16 &quot;wā&quot; which means era or age. In each *wā*, something is born whether it is a human, plant, or creature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The octopus, known as Kanaloa, is mentioned in the 8th wā.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the eighth wā, the four divinities are born: Laʻilaʻi (Female), Kiʻi (Male), Kāne (God), Kanaloa (Octopus), respectively.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding the octopus being the only survivor from a previous world, it was interpreted by anthropologists Adolf Bastian and Roland Burrage Dixon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the 19th and early 20th centuries, anthropologists Adolf Bastian and Roland Burrage Dixon interpreted a recurring verse of the Kumulipo as describing the octopus as the sole survivor of a previous age of existence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The translated version can be read on:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [The Kumulipo](http://www.sacred-texts.com/pac/ku/index.htm) with commentary and translations by Martha Warren Beckwith.&#xD;&#xA;- [The Kumulipo: a Hawaiian creation chant](http://www.ulukau.org/elib/cgi-bin/library?c=beckwit2&amp;l=en), another online copy of the Beckwith book, Paperback edition 1981. University of Hawaii Press.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Found by googling &quot;octopus world creation&quot; which returns [Wikipedia article on Octopus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus) that refers [Kumulipo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumulipo)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19242" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5738" RevisionGUID="d6c88a33-89c5-41b5-9bec-4a4553204a7d" CreationDate="2019-06-20T10:03:06.820" UserId="57" Comment="edited body; edited title" Text="Are there any other instances, besides the initial moment of the beginning, where Chaos is referenced in ancient Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19243" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5738" RevisionGUID="d6c88a33-89c5-41b5-9bec-4a4553204a7d" CreationDate="2019-06-20T10:03:06.820" UserId="57" Comment="edited body; edited title" Text="Are there stories that reference Chaos?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19244" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5741" RevisionGUID="2c5dc261-7dfb-45a8-b193-46da46e42388" CreationDate="2019-06-20T12:46:10.690" UserId="6153" Text="I noticed that in the categorisation of creation myths, there isn't a slot for iterative creation, i.e. where one world is created after another (with or without destroying the previous one), *without* the expectation of infinite cycles. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An example would be the [Five Suns][1], but aside from it, I seem to have trouble finding more examples. [Even my recent question about the octopus sneaking in from a previous realm seems to be based on an *outsider's interpretation*][2]. There are a few works of recent fiction that explicitly or implicitly rely on iterations of worlds, but of course those aren't *really* mythologies in the usual sense.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Are iterative world creation myths that uncommon, or am I just looking in the wrong places?** If the former, what's so special about them that makes them so rare? If the latter, what would be other solid examples?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Suns&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/5737/in-what-myth-the-octopus-hails-from-a-previous-world/5740#5740" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19245" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5741" RevisionGUID="2c5dc261-7dfb-45a8-b193-46da46e42388" CreationDate="2019-06-20T12:46:10.690" UserId="6153" Text="Iterative Creation Myths: Rare or Just Obscure?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19246" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5741" RevisionGUID="2c5dc261-7dfb-45a8-b193-46da46e42388" CreationDate="2019-06-20T12:46:10.690" UserId="6153" Text="|creation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19247" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5742" RevisionGUID="ad3e44b1-a7f1-416f-92cf-b50f333a4f39" CreationDate="2019-06-21T02:29:58.160" UserId="6155" Text="Is there a character in any mythology or folklore that was notable for having created themself?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19248" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5742" RevisionGUID="ad3e44b1-a7f1-416f-92cf-b50f333a4f39" CreationDate="2019-06-21T02:29:58.160" UserId="6155" Text="Character that created themself?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19249" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5742" RevisionGUID="ad3e44b1-a7f1-416f-92cf-b50f333a4f39" CreationDate="2019-06-21T02:29:58.160" UserId="6155" Text="|origins|creation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19250" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5742" RevisionGUID="3b2b81a9-71b7-4b0c-8aa8-0b08876cd571" CreationDate="2019-06-21T04:33:28.780" UserId="108" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="Is there a character in any mythology or folklore that was notable for having created themselves?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19251" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5743" RevisionGUID="f1e5a72e-59b8-4181-9820-48b26bc76335" CreationDate="2019-06-21T05:11:07.377" UserId="108" Text="This might be a lot more common than you'd think. Many examples come from creation myths, perhaps because having a creator at all begs the obvious question, &quot;who created the creator?&quot; One solution is to declare the creator eternal. The other is a self-created deity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For instance, the creator god in [ǃKung](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ǃKung_people) mythology called ≠Gao!na:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ≠Gao!na created himself; then he created a lsser god and wives for himself and the lesser god. He named himself Hishe (The One Whom No One Can Command) and gave names to his own wife and to the lesser god and his wife.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Lynch, Patricia Ann, and Jeremy Roberts. *African Mythology, A to Z.* Infobase Publishing, 2010.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Ancient Egyptian creation myth, Atum is also described as having created himself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the beginning were the primeval waters, named Nun, which, since they were unconscious and inanimate, were incapable of independent action. Out of the waters Ra raised himself on a hill and created himself . . . For reasons that remain obscure to mortals, he conceived the idea of creation and willed his own physical existence.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Armour, Robert A., and Alison Baker. *Gods and Myths of Ancient Egypt.* Cairo: American University in Cairo Press, 1986.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He then fertilised himself by giving himself oral sex and produced the twins Tefnut and Schu.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In some versions of ancient Indian creation myth, the creator god Brahma is described as self created:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Brahama came to him and said, &quot;Tell me, who are you?&quot; Vishnu replied, &quot;I am Vishnu, creator of the unvierse, All the worlds, and you yourself, are inside me. And who are you?&quot; Brahma replied, &quot;I am the creator, self-created, and everything is inside me.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Doniger, Wendy. The implied spider: Politics and theology in myth. Columbia University Press, 2010.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other versions describe him as being created by Vishnu or born of the lotus from Vishnu's navel, though." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19252" PostHistoryTypeId="52" PostId="5742" RevisionGUID="3643ef31-3b2e-45ee-b6b7-b48bfc322547" CreationDate="2019-06-21T10:41:47.107" />
  <row Id="19255" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5636" RevisionGUID="0e8260a7-7e3b-4f35-911e-c711876b3978" CreationDate="2019-06-21T16:26:57.660" UserId="2682" Comment="added a detail" Text="**A Sphinx Replacement?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Book 7 of Ovid's *Metamorphoses* strongly implies that the attacks of the Teumessian Fox were revenge for the death of another monster, the Sphinx, which Thebes had been rid of thanks to Oidipous [Oedipus], who won the throne of Thebes by accomplishing this feat. Ovid says that the Teumessian Fox descended upon Thebes immediately after the Sphinx was gone. However, in his account, it is the goddess Themis who sends the fox, and, by inference, she was responsible for the Sphinx as well. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;No other ancient source (of which I am aware) specifies a reason for the Teumessian Fox being a punishment. The scholion on Hesiod's *Theogony* 326 says that it was Dionysos [Dionysus] who had sent the Sphinx. Meanwhile, Apollodorus says that it was Hera who had sent the Sphinx because Laios [Laius], who had been king of Thebes before Oidipous, had kidnapped Pelops's young son Khrysippos [Chrysippus] for the purpose of paederasty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we combined all the above versions together and pinned it all on Dionysos, the narrative would be that Dionysos sent the Sphinx because of Laios's crimes and then sent the fox to avenge the Sphinx. It, however, seems quite out of character for Dionysos to consider Laios's actions with Khrysippos a crime, on top of us having to doctor the information from the sources quite as much as I've just done.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Having said that, then, there are some other, rather more personal reasons, why Dionysos would have beef with Thebes, with support from the only other ancient source (that I have found) which hints, obliquely, at why the fox was sent to Thebes. This source would be older than Ovid.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Three Transgressions**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It may be that Dionysos bore a grudge against his closest maternal relatives, who happen to have been Thebans. In the myths' chronology, between the foundation of Thebes and the time of Prokris [Procris], there are only three instances (as far as I am aware) upon which Dionysos had occasion to be offended by the people of Thebes. The wine-god engages himself more directly with only two of these three instances.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Number 1**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the two direct encounters involves less carnage, whereupon Dionysos' Theban twin half-brothers Amphion and Zethos [Zethus] violently killed their great-aunt Dirke [Dirce] who had spent many years mistreating the twins' mother Antiope. Because Dirke had been a devotee of Dionysos, the wine-god retaliated by sending madness upon Antiope, which caused her to go wandering all over Greece before she was found by Phokos [Phocus] and cured by him. The region of Phokis [Phocis], which Phokos had named after himself, is where she settled with and was married to him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Number 2**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roughly one generation before this, Dionysos entered into a vicious altercation with his mother's relatives, to whom Antiope was related through marriage. Dionysos' aunts, together with his cousin Pentheus who was king of Thebes at the time, had denied his divinity and claimed that he was not Zeus's son, in addition to which Pentheus had banned the wine-god's cult at Thebes when Dionysos arrived thereat with his entourage after his famous campaign around the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For this, Dionysos, in typical style, induced madness in the city's women, including his aunts, causing them to slaughter their own children. Pentheus was thus torn to pieces by his own mother, who then went to her old father Kadmos [Cadmus] and proudly displayed the king's severed head to the old man, thinking it to be that of a wild beast.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**A Possible Hint**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In both of the aforementioned instances it seems as though Dionysos' vengeance is as complete as he would want it to be, but the 2nd of the *Epigoni* fragments from the Epic Cycle perhaps offers a further sliver of information on the subject, saying:   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Those who have written on Theban affairs have given a full account of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Teumes(s)ian Fox. They relate that the creature was sent by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gods to punish the descendants of Kadmos, and that the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thebans therefore excluded those of the house of Kadmos from kingship.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But (they say) a certain Kephalos [Cephalus], the son of Deion, an&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Athenian, who owned a hound which no beast ever escaped, had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; accidentally killed his wife Prokris, and being purified of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the homicide by the Kadmeians, hunted the fox with his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hound, and when they had overtaken it both hound and fox were turned&#xD;&#xA;&gt; into stones near Teumessos [Teumessus].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This tells us nothing about why &quot;the gods&quot; would want to punish Kadmos' descendants, although we do know that other deities apart from Dionysos (most notably Ares and Hephaistos [Hephaestus]) have been involved in bringing calamity upon the house of Kadmos. If, however, we interpret the fragment more narrowly as referring specifically to Dionysos, using your Pausanias quote as corroboration for this stance, we would be led towards the city's throne succession intrigues to help flesh this out further.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The City's Throne**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kadmos founded Thebes and was succeeded as its king by his grandson Pentheus. After Dionysos caused Pentheus' death, Kadmos' son Polydoros [Polydorus] acceded to the throne. Polydoros married Antiope's sister Nykteïs and they had a son named Labdakos [Labdacus], who was too young to rule by the time his father died. Labdakos' grandfather Nykteus [Nycteus]—the father of Nykteïs and Antiope—then served as regent king until Labdakos grew up. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Labdakos had a son, Laios, and when Laios was one year old, Apollodorus tells us in *Bibliotheka* 3.5.5, Labdakos &quot;perished after Pentheus because he was like-minded with him.&quot; As a footnote to that statement in his translation of the *Bibliotheka*, James George Frazer says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollodorus implies that Labdacus was murdered by the Bacchanals&#xD;&#xA;&gt; because he set himself against the celebration of their orgiastic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rites. But there seems to be no express mention of his violent death&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in ancient writers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If that implication is accurate, then it makes up the third instance of Dionysos being offended by the Thebans. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nykteus was also dead at this point but he had a brother named Lykos [Lycus], who was married to Dirke, and who seized power now that Labdakos was dead and Laios was still a baby. About twenty years later Amphion and Zethos got rid of Lykos and Dirke, expelled Laios from the city, and essentially began a new dynasty there. This barely lasted a generation however, the twins both losing nearly all of their children, Amphion committing suicide, and his wife and his brother both dying of grief and heartbreak at their troubles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Laios then returned to Thebes and resumed the Kadmeian grasp upon royal power. (It is prior to this, while in exile, that he had kidnapped Khrysippos.) Sometime afterwards while travelling through Phokis (where Antiope had lived after the end of her Dionysos madness) he was killed in a quarrel with a stranger. Laios' brother-in-law Kreon [Creon], himself a descendant of Pentheus, now became regent king. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Soon afterwards the Sphinx came to Thebes. Laios had been married to Kreon's sister Iokasta [Jocasta], whose hand in marriage Kreon now offered as a prize to the man who would rid Thebes of the Sphinx. By marrying Laios' widow, the city's saviour would thus become its king. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That is when Oidipous arrived as a foreigner to Thebes, got rid of the Sphinx, was wed to Iokasta and became king. Not too long after this Kephalos was called to Thebes and, with the help of his extraordinary hunting-dog, was able to solve the problem of the Teumessian Fox.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Attempted Reconstruction of the Fox's Career**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Everyone in the throne succession thus far has been a direct descendant of Kadmos, with the exception of the consecutive intrusions of Lykos and Amphion, whose reigns are thus, collectively, the only time in the chronology that I can see in which to validate the claim of *Epigoni* Fragment 2 &quot;that the Thebans... excluded those of the house of Kadmos from kingship.&quot; The only way to fit the fox into these intrigues would go something like so:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The wrath of Dionysos remained unquenched, even after he had brutally devastated his relatives and gotten rid of his own cousin, the king who had attempted to end the god's triumphant advent at his mother's hometown. When his uncle Polydoros replaced Pentheus on the throne, the new king died fairly young (through Dionysos' involvement?) and Polydoros' son Labdakos succeeded him. Labdakos seems to have also offended his cousin Dionysos and paid for it with his life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Enter: The Teumessian Fox!*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With Labdakos having reopened Dionysos' emotional wounds which had been inflicted by their cousin and aunts, Dionysos sent the Teumessian Fox to plague Thebes. Having ascertained the source of this problem, Labdakos' great-uncle Lykos used this a pretext to steal the throne from the deceased king's baby son Laios.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The monster fox then gave Thebes a break through the reign of Lykos, whose wife Dirke was especially on Dionysos' good side. Two decades later when Amphion and Zethos killed Dirke, Dionysos' rage against Thebes was rekindled, and only flared up further when, later on, Laios brought the house of Kadmos back into power. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even though Laios died violently, it was Kreon, none other than a great-grandson of the loathsome Pentheus, who took his place. So Dionysos sent the Sphinx, but Oidipous summarily handled business with *that* creature. Finally, then, it was time for the Teumessian Fox to return to Thebes, and it put the city in dire straits for quite some time before an end was made of it too. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19257" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4744" RevisionGUID="e59152a0-2752-412b-923c-ba6ecd8f98a1" CreationDate="2019-06-22T14:02:35.293" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="19258" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5744" RevisionGUID="5a4be17e-a572-4c23-9e64-4c241590bbd5" CreationDate="2019-06-22T21:40:20.070" UserId="6161" Text="You could argue that the famous story of the theft of Mjolnir by Thrym is a fear-related story. Thor is forced to don a humiliating role and wear a wedding dress to disguise himself. He has to relinquish his usual power and might to stoop down to Loki’s trickery in order for them to retrieve the hammer. Thor is more or less afraid of his loss of dignity in society and must give up his imposing status to gain back the one thing that can protect the gods from the forces of chaos. In this sense, it may be more of a sacrifice for the greater good of the Aesir.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odin’s sacrifices to gain knowledge could be fear related, but they’re really exchanges to obtain a selfish goal. Although, some of them can be stretched to fit your construct.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Loki’s fear of the gods’ threats (mainly Thor’s), in many occasions, cause him to rectify the mischief he has caused. Two examples are the story of Idunn and her apples and of the creation of Thor’s hammer among other powerful items.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The gods’ fear of Loki’s children led to a series of misfortunes, and probably doesn’t aid to your question. On the bright side, they got a ruler of the underworld out of it. Yeah, never mind, that doesn’t work...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A very symbolic overcoming of fear occurs when Sigurd rides through the ring of flames to wake Brunhild. Really, this was Gunnar’s fear of riding through the flames and Gunnar’s love for Brunhild, but Sigurd is the one to triumph and achieve Brunhild’s undying love. Although, it all ends rather badly for the trio.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I hope at least some of that answered your question. Have a nice day." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19259" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5745" RevisionGUID="73c96ef8-8901-4f2a-adad-2ee6df5dd465" CreationDate="2019-06-22T22:13:55.827" UserId="6161" Text="Väinämöinen, in Finnish mythology, was the son of the Air Maiden, the creator goddess Ilmatar. Väinämöinen was born into a barren land where trees and plants had yet to grow, symbolizing the state of creation before the explosion of life (and the time after the glacial I’ve sheets receded in Northern Europe). He was a magical bard, not a god, but not entirely a man.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also in Finnish mythology was a bird who laid her eggs on Ilmatar’s knee when the goddess was resting in the seas of chaos. The eggs heated and Ilmatar jerked her leg away. The yolk became the sun, and the whites became the moon and the stars. I can’t recall what the fragments became, but they may have become land. The bird has been depicted as a teal or an eagle, and has been depicted as a variety of species. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Estonian mythology, there is an old creation myth of a bird laying three eggs that is closely related to the Finnish myth. One becomes the sun, one the moon, and one the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Norse Mythology, Audhumla was the primordial cow who suckled Ymir, the first giant who was born from the ice of Niflheim and the flames of Muspelheim. She licked away the ice of Niflheim to reveal the ancestor of the gods, Buri. It is unclear what happens to her after these events. However, this does occur before the earth is created.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Greek mythology, there are the Cyclopes, Hecantocheries, and even the Titans who weren’t necessarily immaterial. These races were created before humans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are probably more examples, but these are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19263" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4995" RevisionGUID="f7f66d80-da0c-4acb-895a-fdedbe775f01" CreationDate="2019-06-24T11:19:45.700" UserId="2810" Comment="and transcription of image, for accessibility purposes" Text="In the Chrisian scope of affairs, if you don't deem Origen to be a &quot;heretic&quot; - yes- :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![transcription below][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Origen was the author of the most effective argument against the punishing terror of God's wrath as recounted in St. John's Apocalypse. With his doctrine of '*Apokatastasis Panton*', the resurrection of all beings (a quote from St. Peter in Acts 3:21), he integrates the conditions of spirituality, i.e. the primordial creation and the goodness of all beings, into the course of world time. Thus the world's end in terror is transformed into a concept of eternity in which earthly time participates. This eternal time appears as a recurrence of all beings; hence the whole world's history becomes a cyclical return of cosmic periods.&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;sup&gt;8&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/sub&gt; St. Jerome described Origen's doctrine as follows:  &#xD;&#xA;&quot;Origen not only presupposed a connection from beginning to end but also from end to beginning. From the end emerged a beginning and from the beginning an end. This as things change, so that the one who is now man can become a demon in another world; the one who is a demon could, if he behaves negligently, be bound to a more dense body so that he becomes a man. This an archangel can become a devil and a devil an archangel again.&quot;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;sup&gt;9&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;!--&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Schmidt-Biggemann, Wilhelm. 2011. Philosophia perennis: historical&#xD;&#xA;&gt; outlines of Western spirituality in ancient, medieval and early modern&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thought. Dordrecht: Springer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Plutarch, whether cacodaimones (willing evil) of agathodaimones (willing good) - yes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 25. Better, therefore, is the view of those who take the stories about typhoon, Osiris and Isis to be the experiences neither of gods nor of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; men, but of great daemons. These are said by Plato, Pythagoras,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Xenocrates and Chrysippus, following the early theologians, to be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stronger than men and in power to surpass greatly our nature, although&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they do not posses the divine element in a pure and unadulterated&#xD;&#xA;&gt; form, but joined in one with the nature of the soul and the perception&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the body. This perception is susceptible to pleasure and pain and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to whatever experiences are inherent in change, experiences which&#xD;&#xA;&gt; disturb some people more than others; for daemon like men, vary in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; virtue and vice.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The noble and good daemons again are called by Hesiod ‘holy daemons’,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ‘guardians of men’&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 26. Empedocles say that the daemons also pay the penalty for their mistakes and failings:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;     The ether’s might pursues them to the sea,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;     The sea spews them to land and land drives them&#xD;&#xA;&gt;     To rays of the tireless sun, and he in turn&#xD;&#xA;&gt;     Hurls them to whirls of ether; one power takes&#xD;&#xA;&gt;     Them from another; hate they arouse in all,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;     Until, thus punished and purified, they assume again the place and order assigned to them by nature&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; She herself and Osiris were transformed through their virtue from good&#xD;&#xA;&gt; deamons into gods, just as later Heracles and Dionysus were.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Source: Griffiths, John Gwyn, and Plutarchus. 1970. Plutarch's De Iside et Osiride. Cambridge: Univ. of Wales Press.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover, the hierarchy of Gods, demons, angels, heroes and humans was different in pagan times, check out Iamblichus the Theurgist:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  1. Hypercosmic Gods &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  2. Liberated Gods &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  3. Encosmic Gods/Celestial Archons&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  4. Archangels &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  5. Angels&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  6. Daimons &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  7. Sub-Lunar Gods/Archons &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  8. Heroes  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  9. Purified Souls&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  11. Mortals&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Source: Kupperman, Jeffrey S. 2014. Living theurgy: a course in Iamblichus' philosophy, theology and theurgy.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;based on&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;     Iamblichus, Emma C. Clarke, John M. Dillon, and Jackson P. Hershbell 2004. Iamblichus, De mysteriis. Leiden: Brill.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/rIwLy.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19264" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4995" RevisionGUID="f7f66d80-da0c-4acb-895a-fdedbe775f01" CreationDate="2019-06-24T11:19:45.700" Comment="Proposed by 2810 approved by 108 edit id of 1741" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19265" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3249" RevisionGUID="34c74f04-65a5-4749-9152-1fb9aa8b1636" CreationDate="2019-06-24T11:19:54.493" UserId="2810" Comment="and transcription of images, for accessibility purposes" Text="I'm trying to find a difference between two _Le Morte d'Arthur_ editions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The first was printed in 1886, prepared by Ernest Rhys, with introduction by himself. Single volume.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Malory's history of King Arthur and the Quest of the Holy Grail : from the Morte d'Arthur | archive.org][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The second (in two volumes) was printed in 1906 and was reprinted many times, the last edition I could find on Archive.Org dated to 1956. Prepared also by Ernest Rhys, with introduction by John Rhys.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Vol. 1: Le morte d'Arthur | archive.org][2]&#xD;&#xA; - [Vol. 2: Le morte d'Arthur | archive.org][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the introduction to 1886 edition, it is stated that the text is abridged (page xxxiv):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Malory's _Book_ really resolves itself into three great divisions: first, the history of King Arthur proper; second, the romances of Sir Launcelot and Sir Tristram de Lyoness [...]; and third, the Quest of the Grail. In the present version it has been thought well to omit the second of these two divisions, which it is proposed to afterwards issue as a volume by itself, complementary to this of King Arthur and the Quest of the Grail.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then, I made a table with side-by-side comparison between 1886 and 1956 editions. As I expected, the 1886 edition omits a lot of &quot;Books&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But, I also discovered, that there are two mysterious &quot;Books&quot;, preserved in 1886, but omitted in 1956 edition. Here they are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![transcription below][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Book title: The book of Elaine  &#xD;&#xA;Page: 225  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; Thus it passed forth until our Lady-day, the assumption, and within fifteen days of that feast, King Arthur let cry a great joust and tournament that should be at that day in Camelot, that is, Winchester : and the kind let cry that he, and the King of Scotland, would joust against all that would come against them. And when this cry was made, thither came many knights : so there came thither the king of Northgalis, and King Anguish of Ireland, and the king with the hundred knights, and Sir Galihud, the&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![transcription below][5]][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Book title: The book of the Queen's Maying  &#xD;&#xA;Page: 253  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; And this it passed on from Candlemas until after Easter, that the month of May was come, when every lusty heart beginneth to blossom, and to bring forth fruit. For, like as herbs and trees bring forth fruit, and flourish in May, in likewise every lusty heart, that is in any manner a lover, springeth and flourisheth in lusty deeds ; for it giveth unto all lovers courage that lusty month of May in some thing, for to constrain him in some manner of thing, more in that month than in any other&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The question:** Why these &quot;Books&quot; are omitted in 1956 edition?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The full table in Word: **https://ufile.io/ffoeu**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://archive.org/details/maloryshistoryof00maloiala&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://archive.org/details/lemortedart01malo&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://archive.org/details/lemortedarthu02malo&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/dkf96.png&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/4gNr4.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19266" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3249" RevisionGUID="34c74f04-65a5-4749-9152-1fb9aa8b1636" CreationDate="2019-06-24T11:19:54.493" Comment="Proposed by 2810 approved by 108 edit id of 1742" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19267" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5747" RevisionGUID="fdd5604c-65e8-4d98-8307-bd9a172dd91e" CreationDate="2019-06-24T16:22:54.290" UserId="6057" Text="Well, we learn from this myth that destiny cannot be avoided. Therefore, although the king knew his future he was unable to change it, and this myth emphasis that no one can change fate even gods in Greek during that period of time." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19270" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5750" RevisionGUID="4552c400-2c7d-4a5d-afaa-dc9668071684" CreationDate="2019-06-25T23:12:45.867" UserId="6167" Text="My anthropology professor linked it back to the belief that there were spirits, of whatever kind, living in trees and wood, and in order to keep them from hearing what you were saying and spoiling things when they were going well, you should knock on wood as you were speaking." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19271" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2196" RevisionGUID="c952bb6b-ab88-4547-a908-d0ed8f946e88" CreationDate="2019-06-25T23:49:28.863" UserId="1241" Comment="added 2 characters in body; edited title" Text="In Mitcham in South London, children often used to build &quot;grottoes&quot; out of pebbles, pieces of broken pottery, candles, and sometimes shells, flowers, or pieces of mirror. They would ask for &quot;a penny for the grotta&quot; (the local pronunciation) and would spend the money they collected at the [Mitcham Fair][1], known to date back to the early 18th century and which according to legend was first granted a charter by Queen Elizabeth I more than a century earlier. The building of grottoes continued until at least the 1980s.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is speculated that there may be a strong connection with St. James, who is buried at the major pilgrimage site of Compostela in Galicia in Spain, and whose symbol is the shell, in particular the scallop shell found on the Galician shore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But how much credence should we give to this notion, bearing in mind that shellfish were a common food in London and also that St. James's feast day is on 25 July whereas the fair itself was held on 12-14 August until 1924 and even today commences around 12 August each year?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.shadowtimepublishing.co.uk/mysteriousmitcham/grotto.shtml" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19272" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2196" RevisionGUID="c952bb6b-ab88-4547-a908-d0ed8f946e88" CreationDate="2019-06-25T23:49:28.863" UserId="1241" Comment="added 2 characters in body; edited title" Text="Were the grottoes of the Mitcham Fair in South London really connected with the veneration of St. James of Compostela?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19280" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5752" RevisionGUID="9e2ec47e-9d24-4c6a-8220-2988a290abeb" CreationDate="2019-06-28T09:35:57.990" UserId="6175" Text="I've come across conflicting information about Medusa's sisters and whether or not they could turn people to stone like Medusa can. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A lot of places online say that all three can; but some other places I've seen claim that only Medusa can, and I seem to remember this from reading into Greek mythology as a kid, so I'm skeptical of the more popular opinion that they all can, and was hoping for something more authoritative to state one way or the other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, could Stheno and Euryale turn people to stone like Medusa could?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19281" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5752" RevisionGUID="9e2ec47e-9d24-4c6a-8220-2988a290abeb" CreationDate="2019-06-28T09:35:57.990" UserId="6175" Text="Could all three Gorgons turn people to stone, or just Medusa?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19282" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5752" RevisionGUID="9e2ec47e-9d24-4c6a-8220-2988a290abeb" CreationDate="2019-06-28T09:35:57.990" UserId="6175" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|medusa|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19283" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5753" RevisionGUID="517e5a03-3046-4cc2-b2da-e7519b6e4cb1" CreationDate="2019-06-28T10:12:41.210" UserId="201" Text="Only Medusa.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Medusa was the only mortal of the three sisters, and the only beautiful one. Poseidon raped her in one of Athena's temples. The other gods demanded that Medusa be punished for &quot;defiling&quot; the temple (never mind punishing Poseidon for raping her). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Athena changed her into a hideous creature with snakes for hair — interpretations vary on whether this was punishment for defiling the temple or a way to protect her from further abuse. Medusa was now so hideous that anyone who looked at her turned to stone. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Myths about the Gorgons range. Earlier poets (Aeschylus) called all three monsters, or said there was only one Gorgo altogether (Homer and Euripides). Later stories have the details about Medusa's rape and transformation (such as Ovid's *Metamorphoses*.) Hesiod in *Theogony* seems to split the difference, saying all three were monsters but that only Medusa had the petrification powers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All material from &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Gorgones.html&quot;&gt;Theoi.&lt;/a&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19284" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="875" RevisionGUID="37e7179c-7902-4bf5-969b-9fab53195f1e" CreationDate="2019-06-28T10:16:01.940" UserId="2810" Comment="include image descriptions as actual descriptions, for accessibility purposes" Text="To expand on @plannapus' answer:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Chinese folk religion or Taoism doesn't worship *Sun Wu Kong* (`孫悟空`) *per se*, but rather a monkey deity usually referred to as the *Great Sage* (`大聖`) or *Heaven Rivaling Great Sage* (`齊天大聖`). Historically, this has been particularly prevalent in [Fukien](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fujian), but stories similar to Sun Wu Kong's backstory can be found in several regions. **This predates the *c.* 1592 [*Journey to the West*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_to_the_West)**, but the popularity of that novel furnished the traditional monkey deity with a standardised (sort of) backstory and the name Sun Wu Kong.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roots of the modern monkey deity worship certainly predates the late 16th century fictional work, however. From about the late Yuan dynasty, elements of traditional folklore were incorporated into fictional works. A play by the Mongolian playwrite Yang Jing-xian, confusingly also titled *Journey to the West*, contains an autobiographic line by a certain *&quot;Itinerant Monk Sun&quot;* (recycled into the much later novel as a common title for Sun Wu Kong):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 《元·楊景賢·西遊記·第三本》小聖弟兄、姊妹五人，大姊驪山老母，二妹巫枝祗聖母，大兄齊天大聖，小聖通天大聖，三弟耍耍三郎&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I have five brothers and sisters. Big sister is the *Old Lady of [Mt Li](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Li)*; little sister is the *Wu Zhiqi Sage*; big brother is the *Heaven Rivaling Great Sage*; **I am the *Heaven Reaching Great Sage***; and little brother is Shua Shua.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that here, Xuanzhong's monkey companion has a name (Heaven Reaching Great Sage) that's different form its usual modern version (Heaven Rivaling Great Sage). Both names do however appear for the monkey brothers in contemporary works such as the play `二郎神鎖齊天大聖` or the novella `陳從善梅嶺失渾家`. They are also found in an archaeological site on Baoshan mountain in [Shunchang, Fukien](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunchang_County), known as the Twin Sages Tomb. it's located near the Southern Heaven Gate, a temple first built in 1391 and rebuilt in 1548, which some scholars argue are the upper and lower bounds for the tomb's age.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![順昌寶山雙聖墓 - Twin Sages Tomb, at Baoshan, Fukien][3]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;(順昌寶山雙聖墓 - Twin Sages Tomb, at Baoshan, Fukien)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The inscriptions are difficult to read from the photo, but the left is the [spirit tablet](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_tablet) for a certain *Heaven Reaching Great Saint* (`通天大聖`), while the right is for the more familiar *Heaven Rivaling Great Saint*. The positioning (left is senior) and style of the steles matches the play's version that the *Heaven Reaching Great Saint* is the younger brother.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On this basis it is thought that the *Journey*'s character of Sun Wukong - and the monkey deity - is in fact **an amalgamation of both Great Sages and their sister, *Wu Zhiqi*.** That is in fact a considerably more ancient name, tracing back to at least ninth century. During the Tang Dynasty, [Li Gongzu](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Gongzuo), a fantasy novelist who penned the famous [*Governor of Nanke*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Governor_of_Nanke), wrote that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;《唐·李公佐·古岳讀經》 禹理水，三至桐柏山，驚風走雷，石號木鳴，五伯擁川，天老肅兵，不能興。禹怒，召集百靈，搜命夔龍，桐柏千君長稽首請命，禹因囚鴻蒙氏、章商氏、兜盧氏、犁婁氏，乃獲淮渦水神，名無支祁，善應對言語，辨江淮之淺深、原隰之遠近。形若猿猴，縮鼻高額，青軀白首，金目雪牙，頸伸百尺，力逾九象，搏擊騰踔疾奔，輕利倏忽，聞視不可久，禹授之章律，不能制，授之鳥木由，不能制，授之庚辰，能制。鴟脾桓木魅水靈，山妖石怪，奔號聚繞，以數千載，庚辰以戰逐去，頸鎖大索，鼻穿金鈴，徙淮陰之龜山之足下&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While trying to control the flood, [Yu](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yu_the_Great) came to [Tongbai](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tongbai_County) thrice ... [there he] captured the river god of [Huai](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huai_River). **It is named Wu Zichi and shaped like a money**, with a sunken forehead and tall nose, a green body and white face, golden eyes and white teeth ... With a chain tied around his neck, [the monkey] was imprisoned under the Turtle Mountain of Huai.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While it might only be his own fictional invention, the story was collected into `戎幕閒談`, a compilation of strange tales by the Tang writer Wei Xuan (`韋絢`), as the explanation for a supposed incident he heard:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 時有漁人，夜釣於龜山之下，其釣因物所制，不複出。漁者健水，疾沉於下五十丈，見大鐵鎖，盤繞山足，尋不知極，遂告湯。湯命漁人及能水者數十，獲其獲，力莫能制，加以牛五十餘頭，鎖乃振動，稍稍就岸。時無風濤，驚浪翻湧，觀者大駭，鎖之末，見一獸，狀有如猿，白首長口，雪牙金爪，闖然上岸。高五丈許，蹲踞之狀若猿猴，但兩目不能開，兀若昏昧，目鼻水流如泉，涎沫腥穢，人不可近。久乃引頸伸欠，雙目忽開，光彩若電，顧視人焉，欲發狂怒，觀者奔走，獸亦徐徐引鎖，拽牛入水去，竟不複出&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A fisherman was fishing by the Turtle Mountain at night. His hook was caught on something and would not budge. Knowing how to swim, he dived in 50 yards, and saw a seemingly endless, large iron chain surrounding the foot of the mountain. He reported what he saw to the governor, who sent dozens of swimmers and more than 50 bulls to pull the chain out. There was no wind at the time, but to the shock of bystanders huge waves formed on the river. **At the end of the chain, there was a beast, shaped like a monkey/ape, white faced and long moused, white teeth and golden eyes.** He stumbled onto the shore, some five yards tall, moving like a monkey but with his eyes closed ... [after a while] his eyes suddenly opened, looking around like lightening, and looked around like he's about to go on a rampage. Everyone started running off, and he slowly walked back into the water, dragging the bulls with him, and vanished.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Furthermore, the Tang scholar Li Zhao records in his *Addendum to Tang Histories* (`唐國史補`) that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 楚州有漁人，忽于准中釣得古鐵鎖，挽之不絕，以告官。刺史李陽大集人力引之。鎖窮，有青獼猴躍出水，复沒而逝。後有驗《山海經》云：水獸好為害，禹鎖于軍山之下，其名曰無支奇&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A fisherman from Chu found an old iron chain in the Huai River. He pulled on it but it went on endlessly, so he reported it to the government. The governor gathered many men to pull. At the end of the chain, a green monkey lept out of the water, then vanished. Consulting the *Classics of Mountains and Seas* found a passage saying: A water beast was being a pest, and Yu locked it under the Jun Mountain. **Its name is Wu Zichi.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [*Classics of Mountains and Seas*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_of_Mountains_and_Seas) cited in the last passage is an ancient bestiary that dates back as far as the fourth century *B.C.*, but the extant versions do not contain this supposed quote. It is quite possible that this part is a fabrication - citing old documents lend credence to the story. Nonetheless, the numerous references to the story suggests that, while the specifics might be inventions of writers, the idea of a monkey river god was an established concept in Chinese folklore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover, there are obvious parallels with the Sun Wukong character from the *Journey to the West*. The imprisonment under a mountain is particularly notable, and the physical description of the monkey Wu Zichi's golden eyes is an obvious precursor to Sun Wukong's fabled true seeing Flaming Eyes and Golden Iris (`火眼金睛`). These similarities are why Wu Zichi is widely considered the origin of Chinese folk religion's monkey deity, the Great Sage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An alternative school of thought argues that the Great Sage was inspired by the Hindu monkey god [Hanuman](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanuman). Whether a native Wu Zichi absorbed influences of Hanuman, or whether Wu Zichi itself was inspired by Hanuman, is a matter of some scholarly debate. Regardless of the true sequence of events, a tradition of a monkey deity most likely found itself transplanted from India into China. An (originally) [Tang](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_dynasty) era Hindu-Buddhist [Kaiyuan Temple](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiyuan_Temple_(Quanzhou)) at [Zayton](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quanzhou) contains a stone mural widely considered to depict Sun Wu Kong.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![泉州開元寺仁壽塔 - Renshou Pagoda, rebuilt in 1237, at the Kaiyuan Temple, Fukien.][2]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;(泉州開元寺仁壽塔 - Renshou Pagoda, rebuilt in 1237, at the Kaiyuan Temple, Fukien.)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This &quot;Itinerant Monk Sun (Monkey)&quot;, as the mural is often called, predates *Journey to the West* by centuries.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since the Ming Dynasty, Fukien has been a primary source of Chinese emigration and colonialisation. Unsurprisingly, veneration of the monkey god was transplanted by Hokkien settlers to Taiwan and South East Asia by Hokkien settlers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/qzS8w.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/YbyFZ.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/fAYW6.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19285" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="875" RevisionGUID="37e7179c-7902-4bf5-969b-9fab53195f1e" CreationDate="2019-06-28T10:16:01.940" Comment="Proposed by 2810 approved by 108 edit id of 1744" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19286" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4780" RevisionGUID="b75b41da-03f7-41cf-9c7b-dc4a7355f9f0" CreationDate="2019-06-28T10:16:13.187" UserId="5541" Comment="Correct rhyme (following a answer from John Richardson) had to add as follow to have enough char" Text="Looks like the author is unknown; but its origins appear to be mid-1800s London’s East End. The full rhyme is as follow: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Don’t care didn’t care,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Don’t care was wild:  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Don’t care stole plum and pear  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Like any beggar’s child.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Don’t care was made to care,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Don’t care was hung:  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Don’t care was put in a pot  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And boiled till he was done.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://everything2.com/user/Tem42/writeups/Don%2527t+care+didn%2527t+care" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19287" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4780" RevisionGUID="b75b41da-03f7-41cf-9c7b-dc4a7355f9f0" CreationDate="2019-06-28T10:16:13.187" Comment="Proposed by 5541 approved by 1241, 108 edit id of 1743" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19288" PostHistoryTypeId="52" PostId="5752" RevisionGUID="6ba7f850-6826-421b-ae17-1dce5a6f2f1e" CreationDate="2019-06-28T17:39:57.783" />
  <row Id="19290" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5754" RevisionGUID="ad3989f6-a544-4112-af54-7642f977b759" CreationDate="2019-06-28T20:54:08.880" UserId="2807" Text="The two heroes are invulnerable, Achilles because he was dipped in the river Styx by his mother Thetis, and Siegfried because he took a bath in the dragon's blood.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both have a weak spot though, Achilles in the heel, where his mother held him, and Siegfried in the back, because a leaf from a tree had fallen on him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any link between them? Was Siegfried myth influenced by the Achilles story? Do both myths have a common Indoeuropean origin?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm curious if there is any other similar story in other mythologies as well.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19291" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5754" RevisionGUID="ad3989f6-a544-4112-af54-7642f977b759" CreationDate="2019-06-28T20:54:08.880" UserId="2807" Text="Is there any link between Achilles and Sigurd/Siegfried?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19292" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5754" RevisionGUID="ad3989f6-a544-4112-af54-7642f977b759" CreationDate="2019-06-28T20:54:08.880" UserId="2807" Text="|greek|norse|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19294" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5157" RevisionGUID="cf309be9-2b5b-4f35-83c3-302eb801955a" CreationDate="2019-06-28T23:01:10.793" UserDisplayName="user5459" Comment="deleted 73 characters in body" Text="Stories like the tale of the bamboo cutter that are about extraterrestrial beings who visit earth and either return to their place of origin or not. They can also be about people from earth visiting the moon or other planets and either returning or not returning to earth. Are there any except the one already mentioned and Lucian's True Story?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19296" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5755" RevisionGUID="1cb0eca6-55a1-4404-abd0-1dc02c3c3f52" CreationDate="2019-06-29T03:40:21.917" UserId="4022" Text="##All three.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;None of the oldest sources seem to confirm or deny, since Medousa's sisters don't really do much in the most famous myths. But some later authors made it explicit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From Nonnus's *Dionysiaca*, from the fourth or fifth century CE.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *ἢ Περσέος εἶχες ἀγῶνα;*  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; *ἢ Σθεννοῦς ἴδες ὄμμα λιθώπιδος ἠὲ καὶ αὐτῆς*  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; *δύσμαχον Εὐρυάλης μυκώμενον ἀνθερεῶνα;*&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Have you had Perseus's quests, then? Have you seen Sthenno's petrifying eye? Have you heard the screaming mouth of Euryalë herself?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Book 30, lines 264-266, translation mine)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A bit earlier, Pseudo-Apollodorus (author of the *Bibliotheca*) says in the first or second century CE that all three could petrify:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *ἦσαν δὲ αὗται Σθενὼ Εὐρυάλη Μέδουσα. […] τοὺς δὲ ἰδόντας λίθους ἐποίουν.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [The Gorgons] were Stheno, Euryalë, [and] Medousa. […] They turned anyone who saw them to stone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Translation mine; I can't seem to find an edition with line numbers to cite.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I can't find any other sources that mention Sthen(n)o and Euryalë being able to petrify, or not. As Lauren mentioned, Homer and many other authors mentions only a single Gorgon (sometimes &quot;Gorgo&quot;), whose head was on Athena's shield; the sisters don't show up much outside the Perseus myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apart from the petrification, Hesiod similarly mentions that all three were monsters; Pseudo-Apollonius says all three were identical in appearance; Ovid says that all three were originally beautiful, but Medousa had her hair turned into snakes. Medousa's defining characteristic seems to have been that she was *mortal*, while her sisters weren't, which is why Perseus was able to kill her:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Σθεννώ τ’ Εὐρυάλη τε Μέδουσά τε λυγρὰ παθοῦσα·*  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; *ἡ μὲν ἔην θνητή, αἱ δ’ ἀθάνατοι καὶ ἀγήρῳ,*  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; *αἱ δύο· τῇ δὲ μιῇ παρελέξατο Κυανοχαίτης*  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; *ἐν μαλακῷ λειμῶνι καὶ ἄνθεσιν εἰαρινοῖσι.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [There lived] Sthenno, and Euryalë, and Medousa, who suffered such misery. Only she [Medousa] was mortal, while the others are undying and unaging, the two of them; she [Medousa] is the only one blue-haired [Poseidon] wandered with amid the soft meadows and springtime flowers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Hesiod _Theogony_ 276-9, translation mine.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is the only mention I can find of multiple Gorgons in the *Theogony*, with no mention of petrification. Many authors specify that Medousa could petrify people, but I can't find any specific mention that her sisters *couldn't*." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19297" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5756" RevisionGUID="1ef35874-268d-49fc-8b5f-0fa6fd725cf9" CreationDate="2019-06-29T03:54:17.733" UserId="4022" Text="It doesn't survive, but there seems to have been at least one earlier work about space travel: Antonius Diogenes's *Wonders Beyond Thulë*. This book, which was apparently presented with a straight face (unlike Lucian's satire), involved a character going past the edge of the earth and visiting both the Sun and the Moon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately, the work itself is lost; we only have fragments and a short summary now. But it seems fairly clear that Lucian's trip to the Moon and the war between the Lunars and the Solars was parodying Diogenes's definitely accurate stories." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19298" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5757" RevisionGUID="85e3eb38-4eeb-4e35-9cc0-4fdb973280fa" CreationDate="2019-06-29T05:12:43.287" UserId="4022" Text="Zeus didn't have a single individual weapon, like Þor's *Mjǫllnir*, which would come back to him after each strike—instead, most depictions have him hurling a new lightning bolt each time, which is destroyed on impact. So in that sense, there was never a single bolt to name.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, in Ancient Greek, there are several words for what happens during a storm: *brontë* for &quot;thunder&quot; and *astrapë* for &quot;lightning&quot; are extremely common. Most often, Zeus's weapon is neither of these: it's *keraunos*, a &quot;thunderbolt&quot;. This is a somewhat poetic word that's especially associated with Zeus throwing down Cyclops-crafted bolts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Latin, the distinction is less pronounced, but *fulgur* or *fulgor* is conventionally &quot;lightning&quot; in the general sense while a *fulmen* is a &quot;thunderbolt&quot;, an individual strike, especially one hurled by Jupiter. The words are mostly interchangeable, but some authors draw a distinction between them (possibly after the model of Greek). In metaphorical usage, *fulgur* is generally about brightness and flashing, while *fulmen* is about destructive power." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19299" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5758" RevisionGUID="7b4c79ac-1850-4ec3-9270-ff293f3a45da" CreationDate="2019-06-29T18:49:44.480" UserId="4022" Text="Nothing special, according to Plato. This comes from the end of book 10 of the _Republic_ (X.621):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *σκηνᾶσθαι οὖν σφᾶς ἤδη ἑσπέρας γιγνομένης παρὰ τὸν Ἀμέλητα ποταμόν, οὗ τὸ ὕδωρ ἀγγεῖον οὐδὲν στέγειν.*  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then, as dusk was falling, they set up camp near the river Amelēta (&quot;Not-Caring&quot;), the waters of which couldn't be kept in any container.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *μέτρον μὲν οὖν τι τοῦ ὕδατος πᾶσιν ἀναγκαῖον εἶναι πιεῖν, τοὺς δὲ φρονήσει μὴ σῳζομένους πλέον πίνειν τοῦ μέτρου· τὸν δὲ ἀεὶ πιόντα πάντων ἐπιλανθάνεσθαι.*  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then every one of them needed to drink a specific amount of the water, though the ones who weren't saved by their good judgement drank more than that amount: and each one of them, at the moment of drinking, forgot everything (or &quot;had everything wiped away&quot;).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *ἐπειδὴ δὲ κοιμηθῆναι καὶ μέσας νύκτας γενέσθαι, βροντήν τε καὶ σεισμὸν γενέσθαι, καὶ ἐντεῦθεν ἐξαπίνης ἄλλον ἄλλῃ φέρεσθαι ἄνω εἰς τὴν γένεσιν, ᾄττοντας ὥσπερ ἀστέρας.*  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; After they'd gone to bed, and midnight had come, there was thunder and an earthquake, and all of a sudden they were borne up away from that place to their birth, each one in a different way, like meteors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *αὐτὸς δὲ τοῦ μὲν ὕδατος κωλυθῆναι πιεῖν· ὅπῃ μέντοι καὶ ὅπως εἰς τὸ σῶμα ἀφίκοιτο, οὐκ εἰδέναι, ἀλλ’ ἐξαίφνης ἀναβλέψας ἰδεῖν ἤδη ἕωθεν αὑτὸν κείμενον ἐπὶ τῇ πυρᾷ.*  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; But he (Ēros) was prevented from drinking the water: indeed, how and in what way he came back to his body, he had no idea, but all of a sudden he looked up to see that it was dawn, and he was lying on his funeral pyre.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Translation mine.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Plato never mentions anything in particular happening to the ones who drank too much; after all, drinking any of the water seems to erase your entire memory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's worth noting that the Orphics (who to some extent influenced Socrates and Plato) considered drinking from Lethë at all to be a failure: their initiates were taught to avoid Lethë entirely and drink from the pool of Mnemosynë (&quot;memory&quot;) instead. The goal was, eventually, to break free of the cycle of reincarnation." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19300" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5759" RevisionGUID="06e394cb-1c57-4b6f-9abc-e65b8b4c895a" CreationDate="2019-06-29T19:10:19.563" UserId="4022" Text="Later authors don't seem to have considered underworld food binding in the same way. Lucian of Samosata wrote a parody of travelogues called the *True History* (*Alēthē Diēgēmata*), in which the narrator and his companions sail to the Isles of the Blessed and join in the banquets of the exalted; nothing bad happens to them as a result of this, and they sail off again a few months later none the worse for wear. Annaeus Lucanus (Lucan) also claims that the story of Persephone and the pomegranate is a lie to appease her mother: a necromancer threatens to reveal the *actual* story, implying that if it became public knowledge, Demeter would never take Persephone back again and there would be eternal winter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I haven't found any earlier works that involve an outsider consuming the food of the underworld or specifically avoiding it, though *nekyia* rituals tend to involve the opposite: consecrating human food so that the dead can eat it. This draws ghosts to the surface and gives them strength so that they can answer questions and whatnot; the rite goes back to Homer, which is basically the oldest source we have." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19301" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5760" RevisionGUID="092e1f47-78ea-4599-b3c0-40ebe11856df" CreationDate="2019-06-29T19:32:47.817" UserId="4022" Text="What immediately comes to mind is Pandora's Box, though whether that's a curse or a trap is up to interpretation. (The gods gave Pandora a jar containing all the evils of the world, sealed with magic; when she opened it, all the evil escaped, and that's why the world is so awful now.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As Nuolen mentions in the comments, Prometheus was eternally bound to a mountainside where a carnivorous bird would eat his liver every day. Hercules broke his chains, but the &quot;eternal binding&quot; was still there. So Prometheus broke off a piece of rock from the mountainside and set it into a ring, which could never be taken off.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From Pliny the Elder:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *primumque saxi eius fragmentum inclusum ferro ac digito circumdatum: hoc fuisse anulum et hoc gemmam.*  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Prometheus] set a chip of this rock in iron, and wrapped it around his finger: this metal was the first ring, and this fragment the first gemstone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(XXXVII.I.2-3, translation mine.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pliny also suggests that this myth is a misinterpretation, and that Prometheus's cursed item was actually a fetter, not a finger ring. But the idea behind it is the same.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you want something that was *designed* to be cursed, rather than a trap or a loophole abuse, the Apples of the Hesperides may qualify. They're magically desirable so that anyone who sees them can't help wanting them. Hippomenes threw one over his shoulder to distract Atalantë so he could defeat her, for example, and Eris used one inscribed *kallistēi* (&quot;for the most beautiful woman&quot;) to start the Trojan War—all the goddesses wanted it, and none was willing to give it up." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19302" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5761" RevisionGUID="a5857a69-e4de-40be-858a-a871d67f96ae" CreationDate="2019-06-29T20:01:31.110" UserId="4022" Text="*Onocentauros* literally means &quot;donkey-centaur&quot;: *onos* is Ancient Greek for &quot;donkey&quot;. The oldest description seems to be from Aelian XVII.9:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Ὀνοκενταύραν καλοῦσι ζῷόν τι, καὶ ταύτην ὅστις εἶδεν, οὐκ ἂν ἠπίστησεν ὅτι καὶ Κενταύρων φῦλα ἦν…*  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; There's an animal called the *Onocentaur*, and anyone who's seen one couldn't doubt that the race of Centaurs actually existed…&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Translation mine.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Different people interpreted Aelian's description in different ways. Given the name, some depictions (like the one you found) are just a centaur with a donkey's body instead of a horse's.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But notably, Aelian describes only two hands and two legs, while a centaur should have two hands and *four* legs. So we also see depictions like this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![topheavy onocentaur][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(From Ashton's *Curious Creatures*, 1890.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This seems rather, well…topheavy, to have actually worked in practice.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So some modern readers have looked at Aelian's description in a different light. Aelian doesn't claim to have seen an onocentaur himself, but he does mention that they can use their hands to run (on all fours) or to pluck fruit and leaves off of plants. Combined with the description of *ἀνθρώπῳ τὸ πρόσωπον εἴκασται, περιέρχονται δὲ αὐτὸ βαθεῖαι τρίχες* (&quot;a face somewhat like a human's, surrounded by thick hair&quot;), it sounds a lot like a misinterpretation of some sort of primate, maybe a chimpanzee.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Does that mean that the Centaurs were also just horses that were seen incorrectly?&quot; Maybe; some scholars have suggested that centaur stories originated with seeing people on horseback. But the details are lost to prehistory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;What were the similarities between the onokentaros and the Centaur, other than appearance?&quot; None, really, except that they were both said to be violent. I can't find any classical accounts of onocentaurs talking or being sentient, in particular.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Were [onocentars and centaurs] ever seen to interact with each other?&quot; Unlikely. As the quote at the top of the answer mentions, most accounts say that centaurs are long extinct (if they even existed at all—Aelian does express doubt on that point, despite his words above). They're fundamentally creatures of myth, while onocentaurs were actual animals that named sources had seen firsthand. The similar names are most likely because both centaurs and onocentaurs were both kind of like humans and kind of like other animals, not because they were seen as the same sort of being.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/5sucs.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19303" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5762" RevisionGUID="8892961e-265d-4d9d-b560-1c7239aef592" CreationDate="2019-06-29T21:27:48.947" UserId="4022" Text="Different mythologies being consolidated, mainly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Originally—by which I mean as far back as we have evidence to speculate—Poseidon seems to have been married to the earth-deity Dā. The oldest attested form of his name is Maecenean *po-te-da-on*, presumably from *potei Dāōn*, &quot;husband of Dā&quot;; this would make him the son-in-law of Demeter (*Dā-mātēr*, &quot;Dā's mother&quot;). *Dā* then seems to correspond to *Gē*/*Gaia*, from earlier *Gdā* (attested in Phrygian).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later, the dominant mythology changed; this may have been part of the Indo-European invasion, or may have been later. (*Gdā* may have been a pre-Indo-European earth goddess.) Now Poseidon's wife was a personification of salt water or of the ocean itself (*) rather than anything to do with earth. This is where we get the stories of Poseidon and Amphitritë, or Neptune and Salacia; Hesiod's _Theogony_ and Pseudo-Apollodorus's _Bibliotheca_ tell this version.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(*) Amphitrite was definitely a personification of the sea in some authors, but it's unclear if this was her original essence, or influence from the Roman Salacia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even later, the Greeks and Romans incorporated some parts of the Phoenician mythology into their own. For the Phoenicians, to the best of my understanding, Adon was the mortal lover of the goddess Ashtarte; when he died, the goddess of death fell in love with him too, and wouldn't let Ashtarte take him back. So Adon became the god of springtime, spending the winter in the underworld, and the summer in the heavens with Ashtarte.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When the Greeks and Romans adapted this myth, Ashtarte became Aphrodite/Venus, the goddess of death became Persephone/Proserpina, and Adon became Adonis. That's why there are two apparently incompatible stories about the seasons: the Persephone story came from the Greeks, and the Adonis story came from the Phoenicians. The sorts of contradictions are nothing new, and the ancients were well used to them: see Dionysus vs Zagreus for another example.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Nonnus wrote his *Dionysiaca* in the fifth century CE, he was drawing on the Phoenician lore instead of the Greek lore. Beroë was the daughter of Ashtarte and Adon, representing the city of Beirut; her marriage to Poseidon symbolized how Beirut both controlled and depended on the ocean.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So Poseidon had multiple wives because &quot;Poseidon&quot; wasn't a single person, but a syncretization of several different mythological traditions that were never really meant to go together. You'll notice that no individual source mentions Poseidon having two wives: Hesiod, Nonnus, and Pseudo-Apollodorus all make him monogamous. They just differ in what tradition they're drawing from." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19305" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5763" RevisionGUID="4905e2ca-8d4f-4bde-9aef-0cdcfbcf62f3" CreationDate="2019-06-30T14:09:08.107" UserId="6189" Text="May the first has a lot of nature deity traditions like The Green Man. Then there is the Maypole. So my question is: does the Maypole visit humans on the first of May? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; The Maypole may be a pole in any form, an actual ceremonial pole or something else like a child's toy pole. But whatever it is it its &quot;visit&quot; would involve the May pole becoming a nature-spirit element such as a faerie, serpent or elf, probably on fire; I gather that fire is also a May Day tradition. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; The visit will usually be when the human is alone and involve some kind of message for the human. In pop culture the closest thing that I can think of is the movie Donnie Darko when Donnie meets the Rabbit.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19306" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5763" RevisionGUID="4905e2ca-8d4f-4bde-9aef-0cdcfbcf62f3" CreationDate="2019-06-30T14:09:08.107" UserId="6189" Text="Does the Maypole visit humans on May the First?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19307" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5763" RevisionGUID="4905e2ca-8d4f-4bde-9aef-0cdcfbcf62f3" CreationDate="2019-06-30T14:09:08.107" UserId="6189" Text="|calendar-dates|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19309" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5765" RevisionGUID="22794264-ca91-4cf8-bfe9-d7dff58ca912" CreationDate="2019-06-30T20:00:16.847" UserId="5047" Text="There's a myth about a rabbit living on the moon in Japanese mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Saint Elijah is the only saint who ascended to heaven alive. He never died, but was taken away to Heaven in fire chariot. Whether this is a myth or not depends on your religious views.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19310" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5766" RevisionGUID="c406084e-7732-49e6-b16e-6300f0abc710" CreationDate="2019-06-30T20:27:00.077" UserId="6161" Text="Since Snorri himself was a Christian, and his works are some of the most popular sources for Norse Mythology, is he to blame for the modern &quot;Christianized&quot; interpretation of Norse gods and beliefs?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19311" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5766" RevisionGUID="c406084e-7732-49e6-b16e-6300f0abc710" CreationDate="2019-06-30T20:27:00.077" UserId="6161" Text="Was the alleged Christian influence of Norse Mythology primarily due to Snorri Sturluson's writings?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19312" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5766" RevisionGUID="c406084e-7732-49e6-b16e-6300f0abc710" CreationDate="2019-06-30T20:27:00.077" UserId="6161" Text="|norse|christianity|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19313" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5763" RevisionGUID="dca47125-f5df-4556-96f2-fe8e9fad4654" CreationDate="2019-07-01T07:43:15.703" UserId="5541" Comment="added a tag and a small edit" Text="May the first has a lot of nature deity traditions like The Green Man. Then there is the Maypole. So my question is: does the Maypole visit humans on the first of May?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; The Maypole may be a pole in any form, an actual ceremonial pole or something else like a child's toy pole. But whatever it is, its &quot;visit&quot; would involve the May pole becoming a nature-spirit element such as a faerie, serpent or elf, probably on fire; I gather that fire is also a May Day tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; The visit will usually occur when the human is alone and would involve some kind of message for the human. In pop culture the closest thing that I can think of is the movie Donnie Darko when Donnie meets the Rabbit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19314" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5763" RevisionGUID="dca47125-f5df-4556-96f2-fe8e9fad4654" CreationDate="2019-07-01T07:43:15.703" UserId="5541" Comment="added a tag and a small edit" Text="|european-folklore|calendar-dates|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19315" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5763" RevisionGUID="dca47125-f5df-4556-96f2-fe8e9fad4654" CreationDate="2019-07-01T07:43:15.703" Comment="Proposed by 5541 approved by 6189 edit id of 1747" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19318" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4820" RevisionGUID="f5215fb4-64fc-4d41-b86b-b3a2a148fe90" CreationDate="2019-07-01T08:02:25.303" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="19319" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5767" RevisionGUID="c0ba65bb-5488-4d5c-9b06-e04383fe2321" CreationDate="2019-07-01T08:17:32.790" UserId="6189" Text="I would define a &quot;modern&quot; cult as being in the age of the internet. This is fair to me; a cult relies upon spreading its message and the internet has changed that. So the earliest cults were in the 1990's. Waco was the earliest. Then there were others like that one in Japan with that blind, bearded leader, and then Heaven's Gate.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most blatant example to me is the Heaven's Gate Cult. Their website as of July 1 , 2019, is still viewable: [Heaven's Gate](https://www.heavensgate.com/) I'll give a screenshot:&#xD;&#xA;[![Heaven's Gate Website][1]][1]   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Q19tO.jpg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  The myth here is obvious enough; the comet Hale Bopp upon arrival takes people to a spaceship. The cult members - the followers of 'Do' were meant to be those people. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;   It's not as clear with other cults. Let's take one right now: NXIVM. The one with the women being branded. To me it would be stretching &quot;myth&quot; a bit to say that they followed messages of self improvement that were myths. &#xD;&#xA;    If this is off topic somehow open to rewording it.&#xD;&#xA; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19320" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5767" RevisionGUID="c0ba65bb-5488-4d5c-9b06-e04383fe2321" CreationDate="2019-07-01T08:17:32.790" UserId="6189" Text="Do Modern Cults Create Their own Myths?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19321" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5767" RevisionGUID="c0ba65bb-5488-4d5c-9b06-e04383fe2321" CreationDate="2019-07-01T08:17:32.790" UserId="6189" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19322" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5768" RevisionGUID="a8b2d1c7-bfb6-4216-a06b-5fb1d067d162" CreationDate="2019-07-01T08:29:53.657" UserId="6189" Text="To me there is a difference. In a court case you might say &quot;your case is relying upon phantoms&quot; but not &quot;your evidence is full of ghosts&quot;. So a phantom to me starts off as being corporeal material and then becomes hidden; I could walk down the street in camouflage gear and be alive, human and a phantom. But a ghost leands itself more to starting off as dead and then coming back to earth to &quot;haunt&quot; places or people. These diferences are subtle. But they are there. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19326" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5769" RevisionGUID="4520ce84-d250-4274-ae43-521ce2c089f9" CreationDate="2019-07-01T13:47:43.483" UserId="6189" Text="In Australian Aboriginal myths there's the ancient cave art called the &quot;Wandjinas&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;[Wandjinas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wandjina)&#xD;&#xA;There are many interpretaions of the people in this art. One is that the Wandjinas were aliens from other planets who visited the Aborigines. A dissussion of this is at: [Wandjinas Claims](https://www.ancient-origins.net/human-origins-folklore/mysterious-aboriginal-rock-art-wandjinas-extraterrestrial-or-not-00701) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is one of these situaltions where I have specialist knowledge that most peopel and mods don't have. The next thing is going to be &quot;close this thread because I don't provide a nice, juicy smoking gun quote from an Aboriginal person saying yes my ancestors saw UFO'S.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sadly the world is more complex that that. A very simplified primer on Australian Aboriginal research and its problems.&#xD;&#xA;[1] The Aboriginal people of Australia were totally oral in their passed down traditions. They never had an alphabet or writing; thye passed down myths by art or spoken stories. So there is no &quot;book&quot; to be found like the Christian bible. &#xD;&#xA;[2] To this day Aboriginal people do not reveal the secrets of their past and culture to anyone outside of their Aboriginal tribe. That includes even anthropology researchers that they have trust in. &#xD;&#xA;[3] The Aboriginal stories are extremely complex. For instance they gave names to the conctellations like many societies. But they went further. They gave names to the parts of the sky that had NO stars: the blank parts. They considered them unlucky. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I thought long and hard about whether I should post this at all. It does enter into a real minefield for those 3 reasons.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19329" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5769" RevisionGUID="6d0e0268-9d62-4a72-bb56-9233ad93a057" CreationDate="2019-07-01T14:01:27.777" UserId="6189" Comment="edited body" Text="In Australian Aboriginal myths there's the ancient cave art called the &quot;Wandjinas&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;[Wandjinas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wandjina)&#xD;&#xA;There are many interpretaions of the people in this art. One is that the Wandjinas were aliens from other planets who visited the Aborigines. A dissussion of this is at: [Wandjinas Claims](https://www.ancient-origins.net/human-origins-folklore/mysterious-aboriginal-rock-art-wandjinas-extraterrestrial-or-not-00701) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is one of these situaltions where I have specialist knowledge that most peopel and mods don't have. The next thing is going to be &quot;close this thread because I don't provide a nice, juicy smoking gun quote from an Aboriginal person saying yes my ancestors saw UFO'S.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sadly the world is more complex that that. A very simplified primer on Australian Aboriginal research and its problems.&#xD;&#xA;[1] The Aboriginal people of Australia were totally oral in their passed down traditions. They never had an alphabet or writing; thye passed down myths by art or spoken stories. So there is no &quot;book&quot; to be found like the Christian bible. &#xD;&#xA;[2] To this day Aboriginal people do not reveal the secrets of their past and culture to anyone outside of their Aboriginal tribe. That includes even anthropology researchers that they have trust in. &#xD;&#xA;[3] The Aboriginal stories are extremely complex. For instance they gave names to the constellations like many societies. But they went further. They gave names to the parts of the sky that had NO stars: the blank parts. They considered them unlucky. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I thought long and hard about whether I should post this at all. It does enter into a real minefield for those 3 reasons.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19330" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5770" RevisionGUID="6053de6b-aacf-419c-b937-493080b52049" CreationDate="2019-07-01T17:45:18.260" UserId="6167" Text="Short answer: probably yes. He's our primary source for a lot of myths, which makes it hard to say our interpretations are accurate to what was believed a thousand plus years ago because we don't have anything to compare it to. He was Christian, and likely fudged/altered much of his recording of the myths to make them fit into the Christian worldview.(such as demonizing Loki or at least making him fit more the Christian role of an evil/demonic figure rather than the classic trickster figure he's more likely to be, the whole Ragnarok myth isn't actually recorded elsewhere, the idea of Heimdall becoming a Christ-like figure after Ragnarok, a man and a woman repopulating the world after the end of the world... there's a Lot.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, it's not *all* his fault, probably. He was writing several hundred years after Christianity became a major force in Iceland, so many of the myths may have changed already by the time Snorri was born. And the myths we know now are Norse myths are primarily just from Iceland, which had a lot more integration with Christianity than a lot of other Scandinavian countries, iirc. There are a lot of factors, but it's largely due to Snorri. It's a lot like basing all your knowledge of current world religions off a book aimed at teenagers on the subject. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19331" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5771" RevisionGUID="4e263886-e550-4bba-a869-5934f86fa0a4" CreationDate="2019-07-02T04:10:53.500" UserId="5477" Text="I'm wondering if there are any definitive texts, ancient or modern, that give some more depth to the origin of the meaning ascribed to them such as like [here](https://www.crystalvaults.com/crystal-encyclopedia/lapis):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lapis is an excellent stone for executives, journalists, and psychologists, stimulating wisdom and good judgment in the practical world. It aids intellectual analysis in archeologists and historians, problem solving for lawyers, and creates new ideas for inventors and writers.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lapis Lazuli is a powerful crystal for activating the higher mind and enhancing intellectual ability. It stimulates the desire for knowledge, truth and understanding, and aids the process of learning.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A stone of truth, Lapis encourages honesty of the spirit, and in the spoken and written word. Wear it for all forms of deep communication. It is also a stone of friendship and brings harmony in relationships....&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where do the ideas like &quot;encourages honesty&quot; or &quot;enhancing intellectual ability&quot; come from? It's not just completely made up I imagine, even though it may not be scientific, there must be some more deeper origins of such mythology/folklore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That website has footnotes such a these:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - [Ahsian, pp.] Robert Simmons &amp; Naisha Ahsian, The Book of Stones (Berkley, CA: North Atlantic Books, 2007).&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - [Eason, pp. ]Cassandra Eason, The New Crystal Bible (London: Carlton Books Ltd., 2010).&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - [Fernie, pp.] William T. Fernie, The Occult and Curative Powers of Precious Stones (Blauvelt, NY: Rudolph Steiner Publications, 1973).&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - [Gienger, pp.] Michael Gienger, Healing Crystals (Scotland: Earthdancer Books, 2009).&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - [Hall, pp.] Judy Hall, The Crystal Bible (Cincinnati, OH: Walking Stick Press, 2003).&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - [Hall 2, pp.]Judy Hall, The Crystal Bible 2 (Cincinnati, OH: Walking Stick Press, 2009).&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - [Kunz, pp.] George Frederick Kunz, The Curious Lore of Precious Stones (New York: Dover Publications, 1971).&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - [Megemont, pp.] Florence Megemont, The Metaphysical Book of Gems and Crystals (Rochester, VT: Healing Arts Press, 2008).&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - [Mella, pp.] Dorothee L. Mella, Stone Power II (Albuquerque, NM: Brotherhood of Life, Inc., 1986).&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - [Melody, pp.] Melody, Love Is In The Earth (Wheat Ridge, CO: Earth-Love Publishing House, 1995).&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - [Raphaell, pp.] Katrina Raphaell, Crystal Enlightenment (Santa Fe, NM: Aurora Press, 1985)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; - [Simmons, pp.] Robert Simmons &amp; Naisha Ahsian, The Book of Stones (Berkley, CA: North Atlantic Books, 2007).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Those are all modern books post 2000. They are all private books too I imagine, so I can't easily check them out and follow the citation trail. So I'm wondering what the core references are for the meaning of stones.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Right now it just seems like a bunch of fluff pulled out of thin air, but they must be getting these ideas from some other place. Perhaps it finds its origin in some standard ancient references like a medical bible or ancient astrology text or something equivalent to the Tao Te Ching. Basically I'm just looking for something like &quot;the theory of 5 elements&quot; from ancient china, or other simple systems the ancients (or moderns if it's the case) used for ascribing meaning to the minerals and gems and whatnot. Something where the author more meaningfully _derives_ the meaning, even if it's not a scientific derivation necessarily." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19332" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5771" RevisionGUID="4e263886-e550-4bba-a869-5934f86fa0a4" CreationDate="2019-07-02T04:10:53.500" UserId="5477" Text="Definitive text on special stones" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19333" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5771" RevisionGUID="4e263886-e550-4bba-a869-5934f86fa0a4" CreationDate="2019-07-02T04:10:53.500" UserId="5477" Text="|reference-request|bible|astrology|medicine|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19334" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5772" RevisionGUID="5ea207f2-ba1e-4a0d-ab8a-559af9398aeb" CreationDate="2019-07-02T04:52:22.657" UserId="6189" Text="I have struggled to find a taxonomy of special stones or gems that takes the modern approach like a reference book. Under [luminous gemstones](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_gemstones) there are part mythical part story works of scholarship. I haven't read any of these [obvious] but to me :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Bencao Gangmu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compendium_of_Materia_Medica) was a medical book in China in the late 1500's. So from that wikipedia entry:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Compendium of Materia Medica is also more than a mere pharmaceutical text, for it includes a vast amount of information on topics as wide-ranging as biology, chemistry, geography, mineralogy, geology, history, and even mining and astronomy, which might appear to have little connection with herbal medicine. It has been translated into more than 20 languages and spread all over the world. Even now it is still in print and used as a reference book. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19345" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5774" RevisionGUID="76a720ad-fc68-4843-a673-01cc446d17ea" CreationDate="2019-07-03T20:31:46.103" UserId="4142" Text="Surely the standard history applies: late antiquity sources, compiled in medieval encyclopedias, recycled since the Renaissance. Not being an expert I can just suggest some links &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Camillo Leonardi (1451 – 1550) Speculum lapidum. &#xD;&#xA;&lt;a href=&quot;https://archive.org/details/mirrorofstonesin00leon/page/n4&quot;&gt;The mirror of stones&lt;/a&gt; (London : Printed for J. Freeman in Fleet-street, 1750) : In which the nature, generation, properties, virtues and various species of more than 200 different jewels, precious and rare stones, are distinctly described. Also certain and insallible rules to know the good from the bad, how to prove their genuineness, and to distinguish the real from counterseits. Extracted from the works of Aristotle, Pliny, Isiodorus, Dionysius Alexandrinus, Albertus Magnus, &amp;c. By Camillus Leonardus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pliny the Elder (23-79) &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Plin.%20Nat.%2037&amp;lang=original&quot;&gt;Book 37 The Nat. hist. of stones&lt;/a&gt;, chap. 9, ff.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Marbodius of Rennes (1035–1123) &lt;a href=&quot;http://archive.wikiwix.com/cache/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fremacle.org%2Fbloodwolf%2Feglise%2Fmarbode%2Flapidaire.htm&quot;&gt; Liber lapidum&lt;/a&gt; 60 stones, in latin and french&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An early serious work in the peripatetic tradition is Theophrastus (371–287.BC) &lt;a href=&quot;https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/1811/32541/THEOPHRASTUS_CALEY.pdf&quot;&gt;On Stones&lt;/a&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19346" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5774" RevisionGUID="da721e45-8451-4f41-bf76-4c2ece8defc0" CreationDate="2019-07-03T21:33:10.387" UserId="4142" Comment="a resource added" Text="Surely the standard history applies: late antiquity sources, compiled in medieval encyclopedias, recycled since the Renaissance. Not being an expert I can just suggest some links &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Camillo Leonardi (1451 – 1550) Speculum lapidum. &#xD;&#xA;&lt;a href=&quot;https://archive.org/details/mirrorofstonesin00leon/page/n4&quot;&gt;The mirror of stones&lt;/a&gt; (London : Printed for J. Freeman in Fleet-street, 1750) : In which the nature, generation, properties, virtues and various species of more than 200 different jewels, precious and rare stones, are distinctly described. Also certain and insallible rules to know the good from the bad, how to prove their genuineness, and to distinguish the real from counterseits. Extracted from the works of Aristotle, Pliny, Isiodorus, Dionysius Alexandrinus, Albertus Magnus, &amp;c. By Camillus Leonardus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pliny the Elder (23-79) &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Plin.%20Nat.%2037&amp;lang=original&quot;&gt;Book 37 The Nat. hist. of stones&lt;/a&gt;, chap. 9, ff.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Marbodius of Rennes (1035–1123) &lt;a href=&quot;http://archive.wikiwix.com/cache/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fremacle.org%2Fbloodwolf%2Feglise%2Fmarbode%2Flapidaire.htm&quot;&gt; Liber lapidum&lt;/a&gt; 60 stones, in latin and french&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An early serious work in the peripatetic tradition is Theophrastus (371–287.BC) &lt;a href=&quot;https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/1811/32541/THEOPHRASTUS_CALEY.pdf&quot;&gt;On Stones&lt;/a&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;+A resource for tracking &lt;a href=&quot;https://bibliography.arc-humanities.org/medieval-encyclopedias-bestiaries-lapidaries-and-herbals/&quot;&gt; Medieval encyclopedias, bestiaries, lapidaries, etc.&lt;/a&gt;;&#xD;&#xA;also Claude Lecouteux, *A Lapidary of Sacred Stones: Their Magical and Medicinal Powers Based on the Earliest Sources* (Rochester VT, 2012):  each entry includes a list of medieval sources that discuss the stone in question." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19350" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="858" RevisionGUID="edcad081-b2de-49ca-9586-54cac27e45f7" CreationDate="2019-07-06T20:01:15.123" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="19351" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5776" RevisionGUID="da8ddbef-cf18-4802-81c1-e13939cb1a9c" CreationDate="2019-07-07T07:18:07.930" UserId="6198" Text="Looking for mythological characters similar to Cerberus." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19352" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5776" RevisionGUID="da8ddbef-cf18-4802-81c1-e13939cb1a9c" CreationDate="2019-07-07T07:18:07.930" UserId="6198" Text="What are some famous mythological characters portrayed as Guard of something secret?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19353" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5776" RevisionGUID="da8ddbef-cf18-4802-81c1-e13939cb1a9c" CreationDate="2019-07-07T07:18:07.930" UserId="6198" Text="|mythical-creatures|mythohistory|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19354" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5777" RevisionGUID="90a296cf-1afb-492e-8d1f-bbd82a2c7d72" CreationDate="2019-07-07T12:48:33.200" UserDisplayName="user4660" Text="**[Gargoyle][1]** - is a fantasy and horror monster inspired by the gargoyle architectural element. While they were believed in mythology to frighten away evil spirits, the idea of such statues physically coming to life was a more recent notion. Like golems, they are usually made of magically animated or transformed stone, but have animal or chimera traits, and are often guardians of a place such as a cathedral or castle. They can also be depicted as vessels for demonic possession, or as a living species resembling statues.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**[Golem][2]** - is an animated anthropomorphic being that is magically created entirely from inanimate matter (usually clay or mud). The word was used to mean an amorphous, unformed material in Psalms and medieval writing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you look only for animated creatures, as example:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**[Minotaur][3]** - is a mythical creature portrayed in Classical times with the head and tail of a bull and the body of a man or, as described by Roman poet Ovid, a being &quot;part man and part bull&quot;. He dwelt at the center of the Labyrinth, which was an elaborate maze-like construction designed by the architect Daedalus and his son Icarus, on the command of King Minos of Crete.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gargoyle_(monster)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minotaur" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19355" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5777" RevisionGUID="140af526-eb9e-45db-ae6e-cf41b873c5ab" CreationDate="2019-07-07T12:54:51.430" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="added 3 characters in body" Text="**[Gargoyle][1]** - is a fantasy and horror monster inspired by the gargoyle architectural element. While they were believed in mythology to frighten away evil spirits, the idea of such statues physically coming to life was a more recent notion. Like golems, they are usually made of magically animated or transformed stone, but have animal or chimera traits, and are often guardians of a place such as a cathedral or castle. They can also be depicted as vessels for demonic possession, or as a living species resembling statues.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**[Golem][2]** - is an animated anthropomorphic being that is magically created entirely from inanimate matter (usually clay or mud). The word was used to mean an amorphous, unformed material in Psalms and medieval writing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you look only for animate living beings, as example:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**[Minotaur][3]** - is a mythical creature portrayed in Classical times with the head and tail of a bull and the body of a man or, as described by Roman poet Ovid, a being &quot;part man and part bull&quot;. He dwelt at the center of the Labyrinth, which was an elaborate maze-like construction designed by the architect Daedalus and his son Icarus, on the command of King Minos of Crete.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gargoyle_(monster)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minotaur" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19356" PostHistoryTypeId="52" PostId="5776" RevisionGUID="a7824720-15e9-452c-96bd-0dd13b7e5a4d" CreationDate="2019-07-07T15:24:22.310" />
  <row Id="19357" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5778" RevisionGUID="1019633c-b583-4679-b196-9397b3ee8fa1" CreationDate="2019-07-08T07:51:33.460" UserId="5541" Text="## Baba Yaga ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Slavic Folklore, Baba Yaga often depicted as an old woman is a keeper of the land of the dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On this [link][1] you can see many of the roles she tends to, but most importantly:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **The Border Guard of the Dead-Lands**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Baba Yaga is the customs officer of the land of the dead. Her hut is a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; kind of passport control. In that hut, the hero goes through all the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; necessary rites to begin his journey into the supernatural world. He&#xD;&#xA;&gt; washes in the sauna, which symbolizes the washing of a dead body&#xD;&#xA;&gt; before burial. He eats and drinks in excess, which is a hint at the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; traditional feast (pominki) held after a funeral. He always sleeps in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the strange hut, because night is the witching hour, the time of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; passage from one state to another. And sleep is a kind of small death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here are more details about her, since she's not so well known:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **The Hut on Chicken Feet**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the slumbering forest, in the deepest darkness, a hut stands on two&#xD;&#xA;&gt; chicken feet. In the hut, on the stove, Baba Yaga reclines on the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ninth brick. Her legs are bony, her nose has grown all the way to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; roof, and she’s sharpening her own teeth. She looks like an old woman,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; but there something odd about her. Who is she? Is she even an old&#xD;&#xA;&gt; woman at all?&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Baba Yaga is an ambivalent character, and that makes her very&#xD;&#xA;&gt; interesting. She’s definitely scary—her face covered in warts, her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; crooked nose reaching all the way down to her hairy chin. She has&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hands like hooks, a hump on her back. Still, you can’t exactly call&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her a villain. Yes, she constantly threatens to eat Ivan the Prince,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; or Mashenka, or Vasilissa the Beautiful, but she ever actually eats&#xD;&#xA;&gt; anyone. Really, her purpose in the stories is to be a magical helper&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to the hero, even if her help is not always what’s expected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, remember that her hut always face the land of the dead, you have to call it to turn around if you want to meet Baba Yaga&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://nicholaskotar.com/2016/06/24/everything-need-know-baba-yaga/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19358" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5778" RevisionGUID="aeda5709-ab14-45e4-b3f3-bcebe1de4f90" CreationDate="2019-07-08T11:03:36.027" UserId="5541" Comment="Added a link for the ones that don't like the first one" Text="## Baba Yaga ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Slavic Folklore, Baba Yaga often depicted as an old woman is a keeper of the land of the dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On this [blog][1] or on [Slavorum][2] you can see many of the roles she tends to, but most importantly:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **The Border Guard of the Dead-Lands**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Baba Yaga is the customs officer of the land of the dead. Her hut is a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; kind of passport control. In that hut, the hero goes through all the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; necessary rites to begin his journey into the supernatural world. He&#xD;&#xA;&gt; washes in the sauna, which symbolizes the washing of a dead body&#xD;&#xA;&gt; before burial. He eats and drinks in excess, which is a hint at the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; traditional feast (pominki) held after a funeral. He always sleeps in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the strange hut, because night is the witching hour, the time of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; passage from one state to another. And sleep is a kind of small death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here are more details about her, since she's not so well known:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **The Hut on Chicken Feet**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the slumbering forest, in the deepest darkness, a hut stands on two&#xD;&#xA;&gt; chicken feet. In the hut, on the stove, Baba Yaga reclines on the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ninth brick. Her legs are bony, her nose has grown all the way to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; roof, and she’s sharpening her own teeth. She looks like an old woman,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; but there something odd about her. Who is she? Is she even an old&#xD;&#xA;&gt; woman at all?&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Baba Yaga is an ambivalent character, and that makes her very&#xD;&#xA;&gt; interesting. She’s definitely scary—her face covered in warts, her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; crooked nose reaching all the way down to her hairy chin. She has&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hands like hooks, a hump on her back. Still, you can’t exactly call&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her a villain. Yes, she constantly threatens to eat Ivan the Prince,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; or Mashenka, or Vasilissa the Beautiful, but she ever actually eats&#xD;&#xA;&gt; anyone. Really, her purpose in the stories is to be a magical helper&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to the hero, even if her help is not always what’s expected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, remember that her hut always face the land of the dead, you have to call it to turn around if you want to meet Baba Yaga&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://nicholaskotar.com/2016/06/24/everything-need-know-baba-yaga/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.slavorum.org/baba-yaga-the-mythical-witch-of-slavic-folklore/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19359" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5776" RevisionGUID="34cbb24c-3e6f-49b2-858d-6849ddf0814f" CreationDate="2019-07-08T13:09:13.273" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags; edited title" Text="What are some famous mythological characters portrayed as guardians of something secret?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19360" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5776" RevisionGUID="34cbb24c-3e6f-49b2-858d-6849ddf0814f" CreationDate="2019-07-08T13:09:13.273" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags; edited title" Text="|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19361" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5779" RevisionGUID="168aa53d-cec8-427c-a150-2e9fe63e2129" CreationDate="2019-07-08T15:35:22.423" UserId="6203" Text="I think we could say that *Jebreel* The angel that was his mission is to  tell the Quran to Muhammad,  &#xD;&#xA;It has said that Jebreel is Giant angel and he have so loud voice. &#xD;&#xA;and when he showed himself on the first time,  Muhammad was really scared to death.  And he went running back to Khadija &quot;his wife&quot;. He was in shock and he shuddered,  and on this came &quot;Surat Al-mozamel&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;And since then Jebreel didn't show up on his real image and he came to Muhammad as an old normal man. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19363" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5781" RevisionGUID="8d6f2f56-96f4-4a93-af74-4fc3e045724a" CreationDate="2019-07-09T04:45:32.983" UserId="6208" Text="The only &quot;demigod&quot; I know who would apply would be Dionysus in Greek mythology who had to prove his divinity but didn't need other gods to raise him up to godhood. Are there any others like him in any mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19364" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5781" RevisionGUID="8d6f2f56-96f4-4a93-af74-4fc3e045724a" CreationDate="2019-07-09T04:45:32.983" UserId="6208" Text="Are there any Demigods who became gods of their own power?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19365" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5781" RevisionGUID="8d6f2f56-96f4-4a93-af74-4fc3e045724a" CreationDate="2019-07-09T04:45:32.983" UserId="6208" Text="|comparative|demi-gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19366" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5782" RevisionGUID="f0819ceb-50b7-4465-87d9-4f24dee04f97" CreationDate="2019-07-10T05:48:07.030" UserId="6161" Text="Griffins and lamassu were the first creatures that popped into my head. They are both widely depicted as guardians of treasure or powerful figures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Griffins: https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Griffin&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lamassu: https://www.ancient.eu/image/2295/lamassu-from-ashurnasirpal-ii-palace/&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lamassu, however, are not explicitly guardians of something *secret*. They are protectors of the palace, kings, queens, royalty etc. and are thought to ward off evil. Although, they could be interpreted or adapted as guardians of secret palaces, temples, or burial sites.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And, of course, dragons. Famous dragons such as Fafnir and Smaug in *The Lord of The Rings* are notorious for hoarding and guarding heaps of glittering treasure and secret artifacts. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hope this helped, have a nice day." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19367" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5783" RevisionGUID="080ba85b-8cc2-410a-b5f9-79700a6be586" CreationDate="2019-07-10T16:18:55.790" UserId="6161" Text="Heracles is one of the most famous characters in Greek Mythology who transcended from being a demigod to a god. Throughout his life, Heracles faced constant trials, many of them concocted by Hera due to her hatred at Zeus' interactions with Heracles' mother (a mortal woman). The story of Heracles' death begins with a centaur who attempted to kidnap Heracles' wife, Deianira, and was slain by her husband's wrath. In the centaur's dying breath, he gave Deianira the blood-stained tunic which he wore and told her that it was, essentially, a love potion for Heracles. Years passed, and Deianira heard rumors that Heracles may have had a rival lover. Not knowing any better, Deianira gave her husband the tunic, thinking it would rekindle his love for her. Instead, the tunic (soaked in the centaur's blood which had been tainted by the Hydra's poison from Heracles' arrows) caused the skin to consume away on Heracles' body. He writhed in agony, and as a last resort to end the pain, he ordered a pyre be ignited to be burned upon. As he died, he left his mortal body behind, and his immortal spirit drifted to Mount Olympus where he became fully divine. It may not have necessarily been his power that caused his transcendence, but it could very well have been the case. He wasn't raised by other gods, instead, he fought against them to earn his place among the Olympians *because of* of his strength and willpower." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19368" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5784" RevisionGUID="ae6ee2c5-1287-4572-9f9a-c65664258b22" CreationDate="2019-07-11T09:19:04.237" UserId="3076" Text="Since i am not in the field of mythology &amp; folklore scholar but a reader.&#xD;&#xA;I have interested some of topic in comparative mythology especially:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The diffusions of mythology across the world&#xD;&#xA; - The influence from one myth that effect other race myth.&#xD;&#xA; - The development of myth that came from other culture as well as&#xD;&#xA;   adaptation of myth.&#xD;&#xA; - Psychology in myth that effect community.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So i started with Edith Hamilton , some of Joseph Campbell's stuffs, James Frazer, Mircea Eliade, a little bit of Lévi-Strauss.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, i alway told that some of those scholar's book/hypothesis was already outdated. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what is the relevant book for this kind of subject or is there any relevant scholar on this field 'nowadays' ?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19369" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5784" RevisionGUID="ae6ee2c5-1287-4572-9f9a-c65664258b22" CreationDate="2019-07-11T09:19:04.237" UserId="3076" Text="What is the relevant book for comparative mythology nowadays?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19370" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5784" RevisionGUID="ae6ee2c5-1287-4572-9f9a-c65664258b22" CreationDate="2019-07-11T09:19:04.237" UserId="3076" Text="|comparative|mythohistory|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19371" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5784" RevisionGUID="cd8a1300-73f9-4ec9-acb6-67537f805c92" CreationDate="2019-07-11T09:25:49.150" UserId="3076" Comment="added 18 characters in body" Text="Since i am not in the field of mythology &amp; folklore scholar but a reader.&#xD;&#xA;I have interested some of topic in comparative mythology especially:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The diffusions of mythology across the world.&#xD;&#xA; - The influence from one myth that effect other race myth.&#xD;&#xA; - The development of myth that came from other culture as well as&#xD;&#xA;   adaptation of myth.&#xD;&#xA; - Psychology in myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So i started with Greek myth of Edith Hamilton , some of Joseph Campbell's stuffs, James Frazer compacted golden bough, a little bit of Mircea Eliade, a little bit of Lévi-Strauss.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, i alway told that some of those scholar's book/hypothesis was already outdated. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what is the relevant book for this kind of subject or is there any relevant scholar on this field 'nowadays' ?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19372" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5783" RevisionGUID="a3d85979-a715-4a91-9fa6-8468ba1a59ac" CreationDate="2019-07-11T23:57:29.233" UserId="6161" Comment="Added source and spaced out paragraph" Text="Heracles is one of the most famous characters in Greek Mythology who transcended from being a demigod to a god. Throughout his life, Heracles faced constant trials, many of them concocted by Hera due to her hatred at Zeus' interactions with Heracles' mother (a mortal woman).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story of Heracles' death begins with a centaur who attempted to kidnap Heracles' wife, Deianira, and was slain by her husband's wrath. In the centaur's dying breath, he gave Deianira the blood-stained tunic which he wore and told her that it was, essentially, a love potion for Heracles. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Years passed, and Deianira heard rumors that Heracles may have had a rival lover. Not knowing any better, Deianira gave her husband the tunic, thinking it would rekindle his love for her. Instead, the tunic (soaked in the centaur's blood which had been tainted by the Hydra's poison from Heracles' arrows) caused the skin to consume away on Heracles' body. He writhed in agony, and as a last resort to end the pain, he ordered a pyre be ignited to be burned upon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As he died, he left his mortal body behind, and his immortal spirit drifted to Mount Olympus where he became fully divine. It may not have necessarily been his power that caused his transcendence, but it could very well have been the case. He wasn't raised by other gods, instead, he fought against them to earn his place among the Olympians *because of* of his strength and willpower.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source: https://www.greekboston.com/culture/mythology/how-did-hercules-die/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19373" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5785" RevisionGUID="3ff88b12-906d-4f05-8f78-9f9613551e35" CreationDate="2019-07-12T10:09:38.080" UserId="5047" Text="They all did it because prophecies told them their child will overthrow them. Cronus overthrew his father and ate all of his children (except Zeus) to stop it. Zeus didn't actually eat his children, but he was told by the prophecy his second child with Metis will overthrow him, so he ate Metis to stop it before it happens. While he succeeded, she was already pregnant and Zeus ended up giving birth to their first (and only) child Athena." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19374" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5786" RevisionGUID="bdda7d74-22d9-4535-9171-813f38465a2f" CreationDate="2019-07-12T21:18:19.067" UserId="2892" Text="It possible there is an underlying lesson, similar to Abraham taking Isaac to be sacrificed, then God telling him not to do it now or at any point in the future.  (Presumably, before Abraham, sacrificing one's own children was socially acceptable behavior.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We need to break out Kronos and Zeus/Metis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the case of Kronos, he eats his own children, and is overthrown.  Likely part of the function of this story is to show the barbarity of the old gods, who are distinctly [chthonic][1].  (Note the discussion of ritual sacrifice in the link, which also mention burning as opposed to consuming the sacrifice.  By [Zagreus][2] was torn apart and eaten raw by titans, a practice know as [sparagmos][3].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You see Kronos mirrored in infamous humans, chiefly [Tantalus][4], who dismembered and cooked Pelops to serve to the Olympians for dinner.  Tantalus received on of the most famous punishment in the underworld, and the practice seems to have become a family tradition--his grandson Atreus did the same to his own brother, feeding him his own child.) [Atreus][5] himself came to a bad end, killed by the [incestuous progeny][6] of his brother. Atreus's son, Agamemnon, a [baby killer][7] who [sacrificed his own daughter][8], also came to a bad end, [murdered in the bathtub by his wife][9].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lycaon, the first werewolf, [tried the same trick as Tantalus][10], which, [according to Ovid][11], nearly resulted in Zeus nuking the earth with fire.  (Zeus opted instead for a flood.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*(Dante, in his Inferno, has a special place in hell where [Ungolino is forced to eat their own children][12];)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Conclusion:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Eating your own children is bad.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;ZEUS &amp; METIS&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus, known for his scheming, figures out a way around this with Metis.  Here he doesn't directly consume his child, but instead consumes a surrogate--the pregnant mother.  In this case, it turns out well, with Athena, Goddess of Wisdom, springing fully armored from his head!  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chthonic&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparagmos&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantalus#Mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atreus#Atreus,_Thyestes,_and_Chrysippus&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegisthus&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0108%3Acard%3D1146&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iphigenia_in_Aulis#Plot&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oresteia#Agamemnon&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycaon_of_Arcadia&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D163&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugolino_della_Gherardesca#Ugolino_and_his_children" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19375" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5786" RevisionGUID="6d4aeaa1-c291-4d4d-9775-17c7e9340a2d" CreationDate="2019-07-12T21:23:21.183" UserId="2892" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="It possible there is an underlying lesson, similar to Abraham taking Isaac to be sacrificed, then God telling him not to do it now or at any point in the future.  (Presumably, before Abraham, sacrificing one's own children was socially acceptable behavior.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We need to break out Kronos and Zeus/Metis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the case of Kronos, he eats his own children, and is overthrown.  Likely part of the function of this story is to show the barbarity of the old gods, who are distinctly [chthonic][1].  (Note the discussion of ritual sacrifice in the link, which also mention burning as opposed to consuming the sacrifice.  But [Zagreus][2] was torn apart and eaten raw by titans, a practice know as [sparagmos][3].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You see Kronos mirrored in infamous humans, chiefly [Tantalus][4], who dismembered and cooked Pelops to serve to the Olympians for dinner.  Tantalus received one of the most famous punishments in the underworld, and the practice seems to have become a family tradition--his grandson Atreus did the same to his brother, feeding him Thyestes his own child. [Atreus][5] himself came to a bad end, killed by the [incestuous progeny][6] of his brother. Atreus's son, Agamemnon, a [baby killer][7] who [sacrificed his own daughter][8], also came to a bad end, [murdered in the bathtub by his wife][9].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lycaon, the first werewolf, [tried the same trick as Tantalus][10], which, [according to Ovid][11], nearly resulted in Zeus nuking the earth with fire.  (Zeus opted instead for a flood.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*(Dante, in his Inferno, has a special place in hell where [Ungolino is forced to eat their own children][12];)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Conclusion:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Eating your own children is bad.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;ZEUS &amp; METIS&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus, known for his scheming, figures out a way around this with Metis.  Here he doesn't directly consume his child, but instead consumes a surrogate--the pregnant mother.  In this case, it turns out well, with Athena, Goddess of Wisdom, springing fully armored from his head!  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chthonic&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparagmos&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantalus#Mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atreus#Atreus,_Thyestes,_and_Chrysippus&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegisthus&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0108%3Acard%3D1146&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iphigenia_in_Aulis#Plot&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oresteia#Agamemnon&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycaon_of_Arcadia&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D163&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugolino_della_Gherardesca#Ugolino_and_his_children" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19376" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5783" RevisionGUID="445c7711-e496-42dc-8403-5ce368261ce0" CreationDate="2019-07-12T21:30:58.413" UserId="2892" Comment="added 19 characters in body" Text="Heracles is one of the most famous characters in Greek Mythology who transcended from being a demigod to a god. Throughout his life, Heracles faced constant trials, many of them concocted by Hera due to her hatred at Zeus' interactions with Heracles' mother (a mortal woman).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story of Heracles' death begins with a centaur who attempted to kidnap Heracles' wife, Deianira, and was slain by her husband's wrath. In the centaur's dying breath, he gave Deianira the blood-stained tunic which he wore and told her that it was, essentially, a love potion for Heracles. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Years passed, and Deianira heard rumors that Heracles may have had a rival lover. Not knowing any better, Deianira gave her husband the tunic, thinking it would rekindle his love for her. Instead, the tunic (soaked in the centaur's blood which had been tainted by the Hydra's poison from Heracles' arrows) caused the skin to consume away on Heracles' body. He writhed in agony, and as a last resort to end the pain, he ordered a pyre be ignited to be burned upon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As he died, he left his mortal body behind, and his immortal spirit drifted to Mount Olympus where he became fully divine. It may not have necessarily been his power that caused his transcendence, but it could very well have been the case. He wasn't raised by other gods, instead, he fought against them to earn his place among the Olympians *because of* of his strength and willpower.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See Also: [The Death of Heracles][1] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heracles#Death" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19381" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5790" RevisionGUID="774b6afe-5e22-4132-91b0-506e0fb8c3ea" CreationDate="2019-07-13T09:46:05.847" UserId="6215" Text="Goddess Persephone goes to the underworld I believe six months out of the year then she's released back on the earth for the other six that's how we have the seasons when she was gone the Earth was freezing" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19391" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5800" RevisionGUID="e6da9484-d8e5-4bc1-a8e7-44b57e268956" CreationDate="2019-07-13T12:57:41.897" UserId="4295" Text="what is the legend of Alderley edge , north England . are there other legends, folk tales , from this area " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19392" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5800" RevisionGUID="e6da9484-d8e5-4bc1-a8e7-44b57e268956" CreationDate="2019-07-13T12:57:41.897" UserId="4295" Text="What is the origin of legend of Alderley Edge" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19393" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5800" RevisionGUID="e6da9484-d8e5-4bc1-a8e7-44b57e268956" CreationDate="2019-07-13T12:57:41.897" UserId="4295" Text="|folklore|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19403" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5800" RevisionGUID="9bd1f91b-7cfb-4877-acc4-4aaa1bb6f75b" CreationDate="2019-07-13T21:52:37.667" UserId="1241" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body; edited title" Text="What is the legend of Alderley Edge, in northern England? Are there other legends, folk tales, from this area?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19404" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5800" RevisionGUID="9bd1f91b-7cfb-4877-acc4-4aaa1bb6f75b" CreationDate="2019-07-13T21:52:37.667" UserId="1241" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body; edited title" Text="What is the origin of legend of Alderley Edge?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19405" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5779" RevisionGUID="076ea037-827f-4aa3-9694-0b6607c39e57" CreationDate="2019-07-13T21:53:59.463" UserId="5541" Comment="Made it more readable and added a link to Jebreel" Text="I think we could say that [***Jebreel***][1] the angel that was his mission is to  tell the Quran to Muhammad.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;It has said that Jebreel is a giant angel that have a voice so loud that&#xD;&#xA;when he showed himself in all its splendor to Muhammad for the first time, he scared him to death.  The prophet directly went running back to Khadija, his wife. He was in shock and he shuddered. From this encounter came the Al-mozamel surat.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;And since then Jebreel didn't show up on his real image and he came to Muhammad as an old normal man. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.learnreligions.com/angel-jibreel-gabriel-in-islam-2004031" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19406" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5779" RevisionGUID="076ea037-827f-4aa3-9694-0b6607c39e57" CreationDate="2019-07-13T21:53:59.463" Comment="Proposed by 5541 approved by 2892, 1241 edit id of 1749" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19407" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5801" RevisionGUID="181f81e8-f410-4497-baab-3a70114220eb" CreationDate="2019-07-13T22:38:12.117" UserId="1241" Text="**What is the legend of Alderley Edge, in northern England? Are there other legends, folk tales, from this area?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alderley_Edge) has this to say about the legends of Alderley Edge:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There are several local legends, were the most famous being that of the Wizard of the Edge.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **The Wizard of the Edge**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Legend has it that a farmer from Mobberley was taking a milk white mare to sell at the market in Macclesfield. Walking along the Edge, he reached a spot known locally as &quot;Thieves Hole&quot; where an old man clad in a grey and flowing garment stopped him. The old man offered the farmer a sum of money for his horse but the farmer refused, saying he could get a better price at the market. The old man told the farmer that he would be at this spot again that evening when the farmer returned, not having found a purchaser for the horse. The farmer failed to sell the horse making his journey back along the Edge. At the same point, the old man appeared again, repeating his offer, which this time was accepted. The old man told the farmer to follow him with the horse. As they approached an area just past Stormy Point, the old man held out a wand and uttered a spell, opening the rock revealing a pair of huge iron gates, which the wizard – as he was – opened. Assuring no harm the wizard told the farmer to enter. The farmer did so, and was led through the gates into a large cavern. In the cavern, the farmer saw countless men and white horses, all asleep. In a recess there was a chest, from which the wizard took the payment for the horse, which he gave to the farmer. The astonished farmer asked what all this meant; the wizard explained that all these sleeping warriors were ready to awake and fight should England fall into danger. He then ordered the farmer to leave and return home.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; There are several versions of the legend. It first appeared in print when a letter, sent by someone using the pseudonym &quot;A Perambulator&quot;, was published in the Manchester Mail in 1805.[21] &quot;A Perambulator&quot; wrote in his letter that the story had been related to him by an old servant of the Stanley family of Alderley, and it used to be told by Parson Shrigley, former Clerk and Curate of Alderley (who was in the post from 1753 until his death in 1776 and is buried in Alderley Church). It subsequently appeared in expanded form in a tourist pamphlet, in both prose and verse forms, the former under the title The Cheshire Enchanter and the latter The Legend of the Iron Gates.[22] Several versions include parts of prophecies made by Robert Nixon in the wizard's explanation to the farmer, such as &quot;There will come a day when these men and these horses, awakening from their enchanted slumber, will descend into the plain, decide the fate of a great battle, and save their country. This shall be when George the son of George shall reign.&quot;[23] Some later variations, such as a poem by James Roscoe,[24] say that the Wizard was Merlin and the sleeping men were King Arthur and his army.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here Are the origins of the [Legend of the Wizard](https://ghostsandhauntingsofcheshire.fandom.com/wiki/Alderley_Edge):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The legend of the Wizard and King Arthur at Alderley Edge was first told by Parson Shrigley, who was the Rector at Nether Alderley, in 1753, and, in printable form at least, appeared in the 1805 edition of the Manchester Mail.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Many people, over the years, have scoured the length and breadth of Alderley Edge, in an attempt to locate the whereabouts of these gates, but to date, they have never been found. One woman, Ellen Beck, claimed that she had indeed found the Iron Gates, placing them near the Holy Well, but when she rushed off to find a witness, once again they had disappeared. Unfortunately, Ellen Beck was not seen to be a reliable witness, and her story was quickly dismissed. In later life, Ellen had a young lover, but he refused to marry her. In a fit of jealousy, she killed herself by taking poison. Her body is said to lie under a hollow bank in a field near to Brindlow Wood. At one time, the area was marked by three stones, but these have since been removed.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Alderley Edge has many different legends, but almost all of them are associated with the legend of the Wizard; for instance, when he was a young boy, Eric Garner was at Stormy Point, in January 1941, with two friends when they suddenly heard music all around them, and under the ground. This music was never heard again. A young Roy Pearson was often taken to the Old Alderley Quarry, and was told by his father if he was to place his ear to the ground, he would often hear the sound of the Knights and their horses stirring. Fred Wright, who resided at Beacon Lodge, tells the tale of three boys who were once walking near to the Wizard Inn, heading for Alderley Cross, when they decided to play a game of ’turnpikes’. Together, the boys joined hands and stood in the middle of the road, their intention was to stop anyone they came across and demand payment to pass. Near Brynlow, they happened to see a woman, who was heading towards them, and as they tried to stop her, she passed right through them. Fred Wright claims the three boys ran all the way to Alderley Cross.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Legend of the Iron Gates](https://ghostsandhauntingsofcheshire.fandom.com/wiki/Alderley_Edge):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Legend of the Iron Gates, a tale told by Parson Shrigley, a former Clerk and Curate of Alderley, until his death in 1776, first appeared in a local newspaper, the Manchester Mail, in 1805, entitled simply The Cheshire Enchanter. According to Shrigley, who places the origins of the legend at around 80 years before his birth, the majority of the tale comes from local villagers. The next time the legend would resurface would have been in 1839, published in Blackwoods Magazine.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Legend of the Iron Gates, first published in pamphlet form, starts with an introduction from Parson Shrigley. In it, he writes: To my dear young Ladies, may I be allowed to dedicate this little Pamphlet to you? The desire of many friends to preserve the original tradition, as nearly as possible, in the manner it was wont to be related by the Reverend Gentleman, who professed to be the best acquainted with it, induces me to collect the papers, and to arrange them, so that they may gratify not only these friends, but also any enquirer, who, struck with the scene represented on the Sign at Monk’s Heath, may make his curiosity an excuse for calling to try the strength of the Landlord’s ale. This tradition was long held in high estimation and credence by the peasantry of Alderley and Mobberley, and although the belief in Enchantment is extinguished by the gentle, but sure flow of Religious Instruction, yet there are many who would take pleasure in reading the tale of the powerful wizard, who once held sway in the very place they now inhabit. To you, then, let me tender this little offering of grateful respect: and I feel persuaded that under the guardianship of such Enchantresses, “The Iron Gates” will unfold to me a source of treasure, at least the value of the good man’s horse. I am, with the truest respect, my dear young Ladies’ most faithful and obliged Servant. Parson Shrigley finishes his introduction with the signing of his name underneath.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Shrigley then starts the narration of his tale; it begins: To stamp the following tale with respectability, I shall first observe, that it was related by no less a personage than the Parson of the parish; who with the gravity attendant on his station, used to sit in the corner, and having gained the attention of his audience around the fireside, would give the Legend of “The Iron Gates” in almost the same tone and manner he used in his professional functions. At the time in which the Reverend Gentleman used thus to amuse his neighbours, I regret to say, short hand writers were much more scarce than in our present enlightened age, so that may be one reason why I cannot boast in the narrator’s own words. I am obliged to content myself with selecting from the mighty volume of literary scraps, which may be supposed to have been left by such a personage “The Original Tradition Of The Cheshire Enchanter”, “as it was recited, and believed, by the Ancient Inhabitants of Alderley, Mobberley, and all of the country adjacent”, and which it would have been almost a sin to have condemned, or discredited.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![The Magic of Alderley Edge][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Magic of Alderley Edge](https://www.timetravel-britain.com/articles/country/edge.shtml)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/jR4Mf.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19414" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5803" RevisionGUID="08cb7e80-8725-4105-8802-b110c925079f" CreationDate="2019-07-16T18:04:34.243" UserId="6219" Text="I know some of this mythological depictions are supposed to represent many things like nature forces, and I know Jung's Archetypes theory about symbols founded on the unconscious mind. However I want to know if there is any interpretation or theory on why all these gods had wings and in some cases body parts from animals like horses or lions." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19415" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5803" RevisionGUID="08cb7e80-8725-4105-8802-b110c925079f" CreationDate="2019-07-16T18:04:34.243" UserId="6219" Text="Why mythical god-like figures share common attributes like wings or lion body parts" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19416" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5803" RevisionGUID="08cb7e80-8725-4105-8802-b110c925079f" CreationDate="2019-07-16T18:04:34.243" UserId="6219" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|egyptian|symbolism|sumerian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19419" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5778" RevisionGUID="ed3b78d9-b0a9-41f7-b53b-a209e0e594bd" CreationDate="2019-07-17T07:31:25.637" UserId="5541" Comment="Added the end of last sentence that I forgo in the first place" Text="## Baba Yaga ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Slavic Folklore, Baba Yaga often depicted as an old woman is a keeper of the land of the dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On this [blog][1] or on [Slavorum][2] you can see many of the roles she tends to, but most importantly:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **The Border Guard of the Dead-Lands**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Baba Yaga is the customs officer of the land of the dead. Her hut is a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; kind of passport control. In that hut, the hero goes through all the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; necessary rites to begin his journey into the supernatural world. He&#xD;&#xA;&gt; washes in the sauna, which symbolizes the washing of a dead body&#xD;&#xA;&gt; before burial. He eats and drinks in excess, which is a hint at the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; traditional feast (pominki) held after a funeral. He always sleeps in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the strange hut, because night is the witching hour, the time of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; passage from one state to another. And sleep is a kind of small death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here are more details about her, since she's not so well known:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **The Hut on Chicken Feet**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the slumbering forest, in the deepest darkness, a hut stands on two&#xD;&#xA;&gt; chicken feet. In the hut, on the stove, Baba Yaga reclines on the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ninth brick. Her legs are bony, her nose has grown all the way to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; roof, and she’s sharpening her own teeth. She looks like an old woman,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; but there something odd about her. Who is she? Is she even an old&#xD;&#xA;&gt; woman at all?&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Baba Yaga is an ambivalent character, and that makes her very&#xD;&#xA;&gt; interesting. She’s definitely scary—her face covered in warts, her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; crooked nose reaching all the way down to her hairy chin. She has&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hands like hooks, a hump on her back. Still, you can’t exactly call&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her a villain. Yes, she constantly threatens to eat Ivan the Prince,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; or Mashenka, or Vasilissa the Beautiful, but she ever actually eats&#xD;&#xA;&gt; anyone. Really, her purpose in the stories is to be a magical helper&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to the hero, even if her help is not always what’s expected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, remember that her hut always face the land of the dead, you have to call it to turn around if you want to meet Baba Yaga and hope for a crossing right to the dead lands.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://nicholaskotar.com/2016/06/24/everything-need-know-baba-yaga/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.slavorum.org/baba-yaga-the-mythical-witch-of-slavic-folklore/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19420" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5786" RevisionGUID="0e1e4cc2-5d44-48a9-aa12-ea5443a7adcc" CreationDate="2019-07-17T16:24:05.093" UserId="2892" Comment="added 23 characters in body" Text="It possible there is an underlying lesson, similar to Abraham taking Isaac to be sacrificed, then God telling him not to do it now or at any point in the future.  (Presumably, before Abraham, sacrificing one's own children was socially acceptable behavior.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We need to break out Kronos and Zeus/Metis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the case of Kronos, he eats his own children, and is overthrown.  Likely part of the function of this story is to show the barbarity of the old gods, who are distinctly [chthonic][1].  (Note the discussion of ritual sacrifice in the link, which also mention burning as opposed to consuming the sacrifice.  But [Zagreus][2] was torn apart and eaten raw by titans, a practice know as [sparagmos][3].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You see Kronos mirrored in infamous humans, chiefly [Tantalus][4], who dismembered and cooked Pelops to serve to the Olympians for dinner.  Tantalus received one of the most famous punishments in the underworld, and the practice seems to have become a family tradition--his grandson Atreus did the same to his brother, feeding him Thyestes his own child. [Atreus][5] himself came to a bad end, killed by the [incestuous progeny][6] of his brother. Atreus's son, Agamemnon, a [baby killer][7] who [sacrificed his own daughter][8], also came to a bad end, [murdered in the bathtub by his wife][9].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lycaon, the first werewolf, [tried the same trick as Tantalus][10], which, [according to Ovid][11], nearly resulted in Zeus nuking the earth with fire.  (Zeus opted instead for a flood.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*(Dante, in his Inferno, has a special place in hell where [Ungolino is forced to eat their own children][12];)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Conclusion:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Killing your own children is bad. Eating them is worse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;ZEUS &amp; METIS&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus, known for his scheming, figures out a way around this with Metis.  Here he doesn't directly consume his child, but instead consumes a surrogate--the pregnant mother.  In this case, it turns out well, with Athena, Goddess of Wisdom, springing fully armored from his head!  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chthonic&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparagmos&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantalus#Mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atreus#Atreus,_Thyestes,_and_Chrysippus&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegisthus&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0108%3Acard%3D1146&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iphigenia_in_Aulis#Plot&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oresteia#Agamemnon&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycaon_of_Arcadia&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D163&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugolino_della_Gherardesca#Ugolino_and_his_children" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19421" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5806" RevisionGUID="6901a6a6-e24e-49a4-842d-15c3e9913b1a" CreationDate="2019-07-17T20:45:43.553" UserId="6226" Text="The web has only the English term, or other European languages &#xD;&#xA;(most of those translate to &quot;eternal hunting land&quot;, rather than &quot;happy&quot;).  Frustratingly, even native storytellers use the English expression.  But what was the actual name for Happy Hunting Ground, in Lakota, Narragansett, or any other language that had this concept?  And what was the *literal* meaning?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19422" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5806" RevisionGUID="6901a6a6-e24e-49a4-842d-15c3e9913b1a" CreationDate="2019-07-17T20:45:43.553" UserId="6226" Text="What is the Native American term for Happy Hunting Ground?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19423" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5806" RevisionGUID="6901a6a6-e24e-49a4-842d-15c3e9913b1a" CreationDate="2019-07-17T20:45:43.553" UserId="6226" Text="|native-american|afterlife|translation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19424" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5807" RevisionGUID="84291377-9bd7-448d-94af-bac82633bbc9" CreationDate="2019-07-17T21:27:29.007" UserId="6226" Text="If I understand your question correctly, you are referring to things becoming real because people believe in them.  The term you are looking for is **[tulpa][1]**, also known as &quot;thoughtform&quot; (follow the link for variant names).  Tulpa is a concept in mysticism and the paranormal of a being or object (usually a monster) which is created through spiritual or mental powers.  The word and idea is of Tibetan Buddhist origin, and originally referred to a creature that is emanated by the [siddhi][2] power of a mystic's meditation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The closest Western equivalent is [manifestation][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulpa&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddhi&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifestation" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19425" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5807" RevisionGUID="13d36567-5660-4db2-a6ef-9b60f8eed1a0" CreationDate="2019-07-17T21:52:21.913" UserId="6226" Comment="added 183 characters in body" Text="If I understand your question correctly, you are referring to things becoming real because people believe in them.  The term you are looking for is **[tulpa][1]**, also known as &quot;thoughtform&quot; (follow the link for variant names).  Tulpa is a concept in mysticism and the paranormal of a being or object (usually a monster) which is created through spiritual or mental powers.  The word and idea is of Tibetan Buddhist origin, and originally referred to a creature that is emanated by the [siddhi][2] power of a mystic's meditation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The closest Western equivalent is [manifestation][3].  There is also [egregore][4], a modern occultist concept of a spirit manifesting from the collective thoughts of a (meditating) group. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulpa&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddhi&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifestation&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egregore" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19428" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5803" RevisionGUID="3bf0ef6a-5d6f-41ef-8f9d-c9076fac57f8" CreationDate="2019-07-18T15:37:00.623" UserId="6219" Comment="edited title" Text="Why mythical god-like figures share common attributes like wings or lion body parts in different mythologies/cultures" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19429" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5786" RevisionGUID="c8133ea5-498d-4462-b36d-1f84a1c4ef4e" CreationDate="2019-07-18T19:08:10.037" UserId="2892" Comment="added 736 characters in body" Text="It possible there is an underlying lesson, similar to Abraham taking Isaac to be sacrificed, then God telling him not to do it now or at any point in the future.  (Presumably, before Abraham, sacrificing one's own children was socially acceptable behavior.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We need to break out Kronos and Zeus/Metis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the case of Kronos, he eats his own children, and is overthrown.  Likely part of the function of this story is to show the barbarity of the old gods, who are distinctly [chthonic][1].  (Note the discussion of ritual sacrifice in the link, which also mention burning as opposed to consuming the sacrifice.  But [Zagreus][2] was torn apart and eaten raw by titans, a practice know as [sparagmos][3].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You see Kronos mirrored in infamous humans, chiefly [Tantalus][4], who dismembered and cooked Pelops to serve to the Olympians for dinner.  Tantalus received one of the most famous punishments in the underworld, and the practice seems to have become a family tradition--his grandson Atreus did the same to his brother, feeding him Thyestes his own child. [Atreus][5] himself came to a bad end, killed by the [incestuous progeny][6] of his brother. Atreus's son, Agamemnon, a [baby killer][7] who [sacrificed his own daughter][8], also came to a bad end, [murdered in the bathtub by his wife][9].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lycaon, the first werewolf, [tried the same trick as Tantalus][10], which, [according to Ovid][11], nearly resulted in Zeus nuking the earth with fire.  (Zeus opted instead for a flood.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*(Dante, in his Inferno, has a special place in hell where [Ungolino is forced to eat their own children][12];)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Conclusion:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Killing your own children is bad. Eating them is worse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;ZEUS &amp; METIS&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus, known for his scheming, figures out a way around this with Metis.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Zeus doesn't directly consume his child, but instead consumes a surrogate--the pregnant mother.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this case, it turns out well, with Athena, Goddess of Wisdom, springing fully armored from his head!  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;HOW KRONOS &amp; ZEUS' STORIES RELATE&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The unifying idea in both cases is that the new generation supplants the old. In both cases, the deities are reacting to a prophecy the would be overthrown by their offspring.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is analogous to aging and loss of capability in the natural world. You see it in wolf and lion populations where younger, stronger males take control from older, declining pack or pride leaders. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;James Frazer extrapolated this into an entire mythology of king killing in the [Golden Bough][13].  Zeus uses a Frazer-like trick to avoid the sin of killing/eating of his own offspring.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chthonic&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparagmos&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantalus#Mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atreus#Atreus,_Thyestes,_and_Chrysippus&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegisthus&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0108%3Acard%3D1146&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iphigenia_in_Aulis#Plot&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oresteia#Agamemnon&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycaon_of_Arcadia&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D163&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugolino_della_Gherardesca#Ugolino_and_his_children&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Bough#Summary" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19430" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5810" RevisionGUID="874866e6-c347-4716-ab13-5d827acdf2c3" CreationDate="2019-07-19T04:28:05.743" UserId="6050" Text="I was Perusing the series 'Crash-course: Mythology' by John Green (Great Show) about pantheons. When it arrived on the Hellenic Pantheon, Its a web of Confusing Genealogy rivaled only by the Egyptian Pantheon.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And a Number of their Stories Seem to Revolve around the terrible acts they performed to each other, and especially mortals; And often times, they got Scot free just because...Prime example, of course being, Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question, if you so seek to answer is.. what is the significance of the negative portrayal of Gods in the Greek Mythologies. By comparison, the Christian, Islamic &amp; most of the Indian Deities are heralded as perfect entities. i.e. representing the best of us ( so far as my knowledge)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What purpose does this serve, having deities that followers can't actually emulate. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19431" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5810" RevisionGUID="874866e6-c347-4716-ab13-5d827acdf2c3" CreationDate="2019-07-19T04:28:05.743" UserId="6050" Text="Why are Gods in the Greek pantheon Portrayed as performing Several Unsavory &amp; Amoral Acts?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19432" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5810" RevisionGUID="874866e6-c347-4716-ab13-5d827acdf2c3" CreationDate="2019-07-19T04:28:05.743" UserId="6050" Text="|greek|comparative|abrahamic-religions|pantheon|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19433" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5811" RevisionGUID="a21e7b8f-a7c5-4f87-9b7b-b1ee53ed9502" CreationDate="2019-07-19T06:30:57.427" UserId="6050" Text="There is the Lore of the [Yaksha][1] &amp; [Yakshini][2]. As well as Kinnara &amp; Kinnari. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also Refer to a Tangential Piece of mine if you so feel.&#xD;&#xA;[The Mythos of 'Yakshi'][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaksha&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakshini&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://wordpress.com/block-editor/post/themanwhoneverwasblog.wordpress.com/135" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19434" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5810" RevisionGUID="a3e7fb8d-1085-432a-9462-e4c6daed97e9" CreationDate="2019-07-19T17:39:40.663" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 48 characters in body; edited title" Text="I was perusing the series 'Crash-course: Mythology' by John Green (Great Show) about pantheons. When it arrived on the Hellenic Pantheon, Its a web of confusing genealogy rivaled only by the Egyptian pantheon.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And a number of their stories seem to revolve around terrible acts against each other and against mortals.  Often times, they go scot free. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question, if you so seek to answer, is: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - What is the significance of the negative portrayal of Gods in the Greek mythologies? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By comparison, the Christian, Islamic &amp; most of the Indian Deities are heralded as perfect entities. i.e. representing the best of us ( so far as my knowledge)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What purpose does this serve, having deities that followers can't, or shouldn't, actually emulate? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19435" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5810" RevisionGUID="a3e7fb8d-1085-432a-9462-e4c6daed97e9" CreationDate="2019-07-19T17:39:40.663" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 48 characters in body; edited title" Text="Why are Gods in the Greek pantheon portrayed as performing unsavory &amp; amoral Acts?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19436" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5812" RevisionGUID="50fac12d-4bc1-4a50-95c8-43c88c94450e" CreationDate="2019-07-19T17:50:46.220" UserId="2892" Text="One of the purposes, in regard to Greek mythology, is elevating human dignity, which leads to humanism.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Trojan war, the gods are portrayed as petty and squabbling, where Hector, in particular, is portrayed as selfless and honorable.  The poem begins by invoking the goddess &quot;Sing, Goddess of the...&quot; but is focused on the rage of Achilles, not the gods.  The poem ends with &quot;the funeral of Hector, breaker of horses&quot;, one of the saddest lines in Western literature, meant to evoke pity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Christianity, this is much more direct--God becomes man in the person of the Christ, and Jesus' teaching lead to Western [religious humanism][2].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ancient Greek humanism][1], by contrast, arises out of questioning the gods, and even the legitimacy of the idea of the gods (Thales, Xenophanes, and others.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;The original purpose of the foibles of the Greek pantheon was probably entertainment value, with some allegory thrown in.  (Bards have to sing for their supper, and if the stories aren't entertaining, they don't eat.)  The subversive nature of these stories was clearly recognized by later authors and philosophers, and utilized to undermine received wisdom, traditions and established beliefs. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism#Ancient_Greece&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_humanism" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19437" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5812" RevisionGUID="e2c97c1e-5904-4788-a154-f4e8248fcedb" CreationDate="2019-07-19T18:45:57.553" UserId="2892" Comment="added 121 characters in body" Text="One of the purposes, in regard to Greek mythology, is elevating human dignity, which leads to humanism.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Trojan war, the gods are portrayed as petty and squabbling, where Hector, in particular, is portrayed as selfless and honorable.  The poem begins by invoking the goddess &quot;Sing, Goddess of the...&quot; but is focused on the rage of Achilles, not the gods.  The poem ends with &quot;the funeral of Hector, breaker of horses&quot;, one of the saddest lines in Western literature, meant to evoke pity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Christianity, this is much more direct--God becomes man in the person of the Christ, and Jesus' teaching lead to Western [religious humanism][2].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ancient Greek humanism][1], by contrast, arises out of questioning the gods, and even the legitimacy of the idea of the gods (Thales, Xenophanes, and others.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;The original purpose of the foibles of the Greek pantheon was probably entertainment value, with some allegory thrown in.  (Bards have to sing for their supper, and if the stories aren't entertaining, they don't eat.) Gods behaving badly and acting foolishly is highly entertaining!  These stories were, and continue to be, popular.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The subversive nature of these stories was clearly recognized by later authors and philosophers, and utilized to undermine received wisdom, traditions and established beliefs. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism#Ancient_Greece&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_humanism" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19438" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5810" RevisionGUID="71c4f753-e195-4c02-899e-757b542621e7" CreationDate="2019-07-19T18:48:38.957" UserId="2892" Comment="edited title" Text="Why are Gods in the Greek pantheon portrayed as performing unsavory &amp; amoral acts?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19440" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5813" RevisionGUID="cf575a1b-f567-46cf-8016-9295a60ad530" CreationDate="2019-07-20T02:05:16.203" UserId="229" Text="I'm afraid there probably isn't one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Growing up with some Native family myself, I gathered &quot;Happy Hunting Ground&quot; was not an actual native term they used, but rather one of those phrases white men use to make fun of them, like &quot;firewater&quot; and &quot;thunder-stick&quot;. That's the context I always heard it in.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there appears to be a [legit Wikipedia page][1] for it, so its gotta have been A Thing&lt;sup&gt;TM&lt;/sup&gt;, right? And that page mentions the Lakota by name. Those people are closely related to my own Osage, with very similar names for what are usually pretty much identical beliefs. That's significant, because there exists an Osage/English dictionary, created by one of the world's first indigenous linguists way back in the late 1800's. This was when the Osages still remembered their old beliefs, and that dictionary is chock full of religious and ceremonial terms. If it exists, it must be in there. And I happen to have a copy....&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Short answer: its not in there. Nothing remotely like it is in there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So I think, perhaps this is my first ever encounter with a large religious difference between Siouxan peoples? The [online Lakota dictionary][2] must have it...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nope. Nothing like that under &quot;happy&quot; or &quot;hunting.&quot; In fact, if you try looking up &quot;heaven&quot; there, you get the following:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mahpiya wokichunze &lt;sub&gt;n&lt;/sub&gt; heaven (Christian concept; coined by the missionaries)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other words, the Lakota didn't have anything like that. The above two words are actually the Lakota words for &quot;sky kingdom&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A bit more online ...er... hunting, netted me [this explanation][3] for the mystery:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Concerning beliefs regarding an afterlife among Plains Indians, Sioux&#xD;&#xA;&gt; physician Charles Eastman writes:  “The idea of a ‘happy&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hunting-ground’ is modern and probably borrowed, or invented by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; white man.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the &quot;Happy Hunting Ground&quot; is indeed a myth, but **its a white man's myth**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_hunting_ground&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.lakotadictionary.org/phpBB3/nldo.php&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://nativeamericannetroots.net/diary/1726" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19441" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5813" RevisionGUID="b86a9670-9d63-4a42-8f3c-af9ebf0923fd" CreationDate="2019-07-20T02:16:31.760" UserId="229" Comment="added 937 characters in body" Text="I'm afraid there probably isn't one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Growing up with some Native family myself, I gathered &quot;Happy Hunting Ground&quot; was not an actual native term they used, but rather one of those phrases white men use to make fun of them, like &quot;firewater&quot; and &quot;thunder-stick&quot;. That's the context I always heard it in.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there appears to be a [legit Wikipedia page][1] for it, so its gotta have been A Thing&lt;sup&gt;TM&lt;/sup&gt;, right? And that page mentions the Lakota by name. Those people are closely related to my own Osage, with very similar names for what are usually pretty much identical beliefs. That's significant, because there exists an Osage/English dictionary, created by one of the world's [first indigenous linguists][2] way back in the late 1800's. This was when the Osages still remembered their old beliefs, and that dictionary is chock full of religious and ceremonial terms. If it exists, it must be in there. And I happen to have a copy....&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Short answer: its not in there. Nothing remotely like it is in there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So I think, perhaps this is my first ever encounter with a large religious difference between Siouxan peoples? The [online Lakota dictionary][3] must have it...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nope. Nothing like that under &quot;happy&quot; or &quot;hunting.&quot; In fact, if you try looking up &quot;heaven&quot; there, you get the following:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mahpiya wokichunze &lt;sub&gt;n&lt;/sub&gt; heaven (Christian concept; coined by the missionaries)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other words, the Lakota didn't have anything like that. The above two words are actually the Lakota words for &quot;sky kingdom&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A bit more online ...er... hunting, netted me [this explanation][4] for the mystery:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Concerning beliefs regarding an afterlife among Plains Indians, Sioux&#xD;&#xA;&gt; physician Charles Eastman writes:  “The idea of a ‘happy&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hunting-ground’ is modern and probably borrowed, or invented by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; white man.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the &quot;Happy Hunting Ground&quot; is indeed a myth, but **its a white man's myth**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;OK then, you might ask, what **was** the native view of such things?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Again, nothing's universal. However, the Siouan people largely shared an animist belief in a omnipresent spirit they all call something like &quot;[Wakonda][5]&quot;. This is often translated as (more literally) &quot;great mystery&quot; or &quot;great spirit&quot;. Europeans found it easiest to equate it to God (or The Holy Spirit), but to modern audiences its probably best to think of it as The Force. It has no gender, and it permeates everything and everyone. From this point of view, when you die, your spirit doesn't really *go* anywhere. It just becomes one with Wakonda. You might even be available for consultation from time to time, say if a Death Star needs blowing up or something.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I understand some unrelated tribes had similar beliefs, but this almost certainly wasn't universal of course.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_hunting_ground&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_La_Flesche&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.lakotadictionary.org/phpBB3/nldo.php&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://nativeamericannetroots.net/diary/1726&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.native-languages.org/morelegends/wakonda.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19442" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5813" RevisionGUID="3554825a-6a38-4a3e-9474-b1b0dc3b8045" CreationDate="2019-07-20T02:22:29.537" UserId="229" Comment="added 16 characters in body" Text="I'm afraid there probably isn't one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Growing up with some Native family myself, I gathered &quot;Happy Hunting Ground&quot; was not an actual native term they used, but rather one of those phrases white men use to make fun of them, like &quot;firewater&quot; and &quot;thunder-stick&quot;. That's the context I always heard it in.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there appears to be a [legit Wikipedia page][1] for it, so its gotta have been A Thing&lt;sup&gt;TM&lt;/sup&gt;, right? And that page mentions the Lakota by name. Those people are closely related to my own Osage, with very similar names for what are usually pretty much identical beliefs. That's significant, because there exists an Osage/English dictionary, created by one of the world's [first indigenous linguists][2] way back in the late 1800's. This was when the Osages still remembered their old beliefs, and that dictionary is chock full of religious and ceremonial terms. If it exists, it must be in there. And I happen to have a copy....&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Short answer: its not in there. Nothing remotely like it is in there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So I think, perhaps this is my first ever encounter with a large religious difference between Siouxan peoples? The [online Lakota dictionary][3] must have it...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nope. Nothing like that under &quot;happy&quot; or &quot;hunting.&quot; In fact, if you try looking up &quot;heaven&quot; there, you get the following:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mahpiya wokichunze &lt;sub&gt;n&lt;/sub&gt; heaven (Christian concept; coined by the missionaries)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other words, the Lakota didn't have anything like that. The above two words are actually the Lakota words for &quot;sky kingdom&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A bit more online ...er... hunting, netted me [this explanation][4] for the mystery:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Concerning beliefs regarding an afterlife among Plains Indians, Sioux&#xD;&#xA;&gt; physician Charles Eastman writes:  “The idea of a ‘happy&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hunting-ground’ is modern and probably borrowed, or invented by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; white man.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the &quot;Happy Hunting Ground&quot; is indeed a myth, but **its a white man's myth**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;OK then, you might ask, what **was** the native view of such things?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Again, nothing's universal. However, the Siouan people largely shared an [animist][5] belief in a omnipresent spirit they all call something like &quot;[Wakonda][6]&quot;. This is often translated as (more literally) &quot;Great Mystery&quot; or (more commonly) &quot;Great Spirit&quot;. Europeans found it easiest to equate it to God (or The Holy Spirit), but to modern audiences its probably best to think of it as The Force. It has no gender, and it permeates everything and everyone. From this point of view, when you die, your spirit doesn't really *go* anywhere. It just becomes one with Wakonda. You might even be available for consultation from time to time, say if a Death Star needs blowing up or something.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I understand some unrelated tribes had similar beliefs, but this almost certainly wasn't universal of course.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_hunting_ground&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_La_Flesche&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.lakotadictionary.org/phpBB3/nldo.php&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://nativeamericannetroots.net/diary/1726&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.native-languages.org/morelegends/wakonda.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19443" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5813" RevisionGUID="3e7a41ee-483e-4527-bc3b-c21f4a453210" CreationDate="2019-07-20T02:33:26.997" UserId="229" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="I'm afraid there probably isn't one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Growing up with some Native family myself, I gathered &quot;Happy Hunting Ground&quot; was not an actual native term they used, but rather one of those phrases white men use to make fun of them, like &quot;firewater&quot; and &quot;thunder-stick&quot;. That's the context I always heard it in.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there appears to be a [legit Wikipedia page][1] for it, so its gotta have been A Thing&lt;sup&gt;TM&lt;/sup&gt;, right? And that page mentions the Lakota by name. Those people are closely related to my own Osage, with very similar names for what are usually pretty much identical beliefs. That's significant, because there exists an Osage/English dictionary, created by one of the world's [first indigenous linguists][2] way back in the late 1800's. This was when the Osages still remembered their old beliefs, and that dictionary is chock full of religious and ceremonial terms. If it exists, it must be in there. And I happen to have a copy....&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Short answer: its not in there. Nothing remotely like it is in there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So I think, perhaps this is my first ever encounter with a large religious difference between Siouxan peoples? The [online Lakota dictionary][3] must have it...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nope. Nothing like that under &quot;happy&quot; or &quot;hunting.&quot; In fact, if you try looking up &quot;heaven&quot; there, you get the following:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mahpiya wokichunze &lt;sub&gt;n&lt;/sub&gt; heaven (Christian concept; coined by the missionaries)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other words, the Lakota didn't have anything like that. The above two words are actually the Lakota words for &quot;sky kingdom&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A bit more online ...er... hunting, netted me [this explanation][4] for the mystery:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Concerning beliefs regarding an afterlife among Plains Indians, Sioux&#xD;&#xA;&gt; physician Charles Eastman writes:  “The idea of a ‘happy&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hunting-ground’ is modern and probably borrowed, or invented by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; white man.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the &quot;Happy Hunting Ground&quot; is indeed a myth, but **its a white man's myth**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;OK then, you might ask, what **was** the native view of the afterlife?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Again, nothing's universal. However, the [Siouan people][5] largely shared an [animist][6] belief in a omnipresent spirit they all call something like &quot;[Wakonda][7]&quot;. This is often translated as (more literally) &quot;Great Mystery&quot; or (more commonly) &quot;Great Spirit&quot;. Europeans found it easiest to equate it to God (or The Holy Spirit), but to modern audiences its probably best to think of it as The Force. It has no gender, and it permeates everything and everyone. From this point of view, when you die, your spirit doesn't really *go* anywhere. It just becomes one with Wakonda. It might even be available for consultation from time to time, say if a Death Star needs blowing up or something.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I understand some unrelated tribes had similar beliefs, but this almost certainly wasn't universal of course.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_hunting_ground&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_La_Flesche&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.lakotadictionary.org/phpBB3/nldo.php&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://nativeamericannetroots.net/diary/1726&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siouan_languages&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.native-languages.org/morelegends/wakonda.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19444" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2674" RevisionGUID="9824aa83-3f1a-4581-8e9e-404e32f016e8" CreationDate="2019-07-20T02:51:55.563" UserId="229" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="There has been a fair bit of work put into [Proto-Indo-European religion construction][1]. Some of it is of course arguable, but a lot of it is well-attested enough, and unique enough to Indo-Europeans, that the reconstructions are most likely reasonably accurate.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The existence of any universal common bits, with relatively common names, shows that the people of all the child cultures cared enough about it to teach it to their children over the intervening hundreds of generations.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would add that the original homeland of the PIE people was likely the Eurasian Steppe. If you've ever spent some time at night on the open prairie, the sky really does not seem that far away at all. Certainly lightning is far more than a metaphysical threat there too, as it likes to strike the tallest thing around, and in terrain without trees, that's often going to be a human.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I suppose one argument one could make against their religious belief is that there seems to be no common word or concept for a priesthood (strongly implying they didn't have any in the modern sense).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**I would caution you against thinking that just because gods aren't seen as literal physical beings in a belief system, adherents to that system aren't religious**. Many devout modern Christians think exactly that way about their God (He isn't in any one place, but rather in everything.) I've also made a study of the ancestral Osage (really Siouxan) religion, and they essentially viewed their Great Sprit ([Wakonda][2]&lt;sup&gt;*&lt;/sup&gt;) as a concept much more like [The Force][3] than like a Judeo-Christian God. Yet a visitor from a neighboring tribe once commented on how religious the Osages were, spending an amount of time every day bowing and praying that would put a modern devout Muslim to shame.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;* - Important clarification. Most modern Osages I know consider themselves Christian, and if they speak the language consider Wakonda interchangeable with the Christian God. I heard an Osage elder doing this in a native-language prayer just yesterday. When I use past-tense here, I'm referring to what little we know about their pre-conversion religion.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_religion&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.native-languages.org/morelegends/wakonda.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Force" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19445" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2449" RevisionGUID="981c51fb-8d6a-456f-973b-0ca935004cfd" CreationDate="2019-07-20T19:36:03.590" UserId="3543" Comment="added 356 characters in body" Text="I would like to add a point. Surely, as answered by Malay, there are many references to different forms of cows playing a major role in various pastimes. However, along with those references and the general quintessential importance of cow-products in India, *Gau-mātā* (mother cow) is also revered because - &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. She has special importance in the Hindu scriptures. For example, *Gau-hatyā* (killing a cow) is one of the most serious offences you can possibly commit, and it is said that &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *go-aṅge yata* *loma tata sahasra vatsara*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; *go-vadhī raurava-madhye pace nirantar*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cow killers and cow eaters are condemned to rot in hell for as many&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thousands of years as there are for each hair on the body of every cow&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they eat from.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many other similar quotations from the canonical Hindu texts that are well documented [here](https://www.facebook.com/notes/raghuvir-agnihotri/cow-service-in-devotional-life-%E0%A4%A7%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%AA%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%A6-%E0%A4%9C%E0%A5%80%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%A8-%E0%A4%AE%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%82-%E0%A4%97%E0%A5%8C-%E0%A4%B8%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%BE-%E0%A4%95%E0%A5%87-%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%B9%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B5-/185205674849978/)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. Krishna is particularly attached to cows. He has many names which describe Him as a protector of cows, like *Gopāl*, *Govind* etc. In one of the more popular mantras for Him, it is said - &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *namo brahmaṇya-devāya go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; *jagad-dhitāya kṛṣṇāya govindāya namo namaḥ*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;My Lord, You are the well-wisher of the cows and the brāhmaṇas, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; You are the well-wisher of the entire human society and world.&quot; (Viṣṇu&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Purāṇa 1.19.65)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So apart from the various references, it can be seen that scriptural injunction (which is an important independent entity in Hinduism) and Krishna's special spot for them makes cows revered in India, especially from a Hindu perspective.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;NOTE: All italicized instances of `go`/`gau` here are Sanskrit for cow (grammar rules dictate which of the two would be used)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19446" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5814" RevisionGUID="60960c9a-c3fd-4659-9274-b2de63f91337" CreationDate="2019-07-21T22:20:38.907" UserId="6167" Text="I'm definitely not a translator, but if you're just looking for the places where the word occurs in translations, the Henry Adams Bellows translation of the Poetic Edda uses it several times (you can read it in pdf [here][1], with footnotes on translation). It also occurs in the Arthur Gilchrist Brodeur translation of [Gylfaginning][2] on page 73 and multiple times on page 72 of his translation of [Skaldskaparmal][3]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you want an easily searchable page of Norse texts(or other mythologies, for that matter), [sacred-texts][4] is a good place to start, which is where I got all these references, though from what I've seen it only has older translations which has its own pitfalls. If nothing else it should give you a good idea of where to look for comparisons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre04.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre05.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/ice/index.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19454" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5815" RevisionGUID="e7dfd459-6207-4ebf-a5d3-f93d9df806b1" CreationDate="2019-07-24T12:45:41.767" UserId="6226" Text="There was a RL case of an explorer attacked by a (provoked) leopard, and strangling the leopard with his bare hands.  Granted this was a leopard, not a lion; but neither was the explorer Heracles, so I suppose you could call it a &quot;scaled down&quot; equivalent.  Carl Akeley describes his fight in detail [here][1].  He did not strangle the beast from behind, but ended up kneeling on its armpits, as he describes, staying out of the reach of the hind legs.  Then he actually throttled the leopard, unlike Hercules in the Theocritus account, who appears to have actually broken the lion's back or neck.  Seeing as the general consensus is that Heracles strangled the lion, perhaps the Akeley account is closer to the mark.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mentalfloss.com/article/80239/time-carl-akeley-killed-leopard-his-bare-hands" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19455" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5816" RevisionGUID="d6815442-09a3-46d4-9720-f3ae4538042a" CreationDate="2019-07-24T16:42:51.600" UserId="6235" Text="Specifically, I mean human sacrifices of their own members (not outside members or prisoners). After watching a chilling movie related to the topic I started thinking more about human sacrifice and after looking around for a good bit I could only find examples of human sacrifice being practiced in settled societies. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it possible that ideologies of human sacrifice only develop in larger settlements or are there examples of foraging/hunter-gatherer societies that practice it as well?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19456" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5816" RevisionGUID="d6815442-09a3-46d4-9720-f3ae4538042a" CreationDate="2019-07-24T16:42:51.600" UserId="6235" Text="Are there any examples of human sacrifice in tribal societies?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19457" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5816" RevisionGUID="d6815442-09a3-46d4-9720-f3ae4538042a" CreationDate="2019-07-24T16:42:51.600" UserId="6235" Text="|comparative|sacrifice|rituals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19459" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4780" RevisionGUID="dafbba7b-4620-49b6-8c51-869e07c49df3" CreationDate="2019-07-25T00:25:08.723" UserId="1241" Comment="added 33 characters in body" Text="Looks like the author is unknown; but its origins appear to be mid-1800s London’s East End. The full rhyme is as follow: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Don’t care didn’t care,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Don’t care was wild:  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Don’t care stole plum and pear  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Like any beggar’s child.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Don’t care was made to care,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Don’t care was hung:  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Don’t care was put in a pot  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And boiled till he was done.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Don't care didn't care (idea)](https://everything2.com/user/Tem42/writeups/Don%2527t+care+didn%2527t+care)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19460" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5818" RevisionGUID="03536fc3-f08c-47f6-af67-5531b468924e" CreationDate="2019-07-25T04:21:28.307" UserId="6167" Text="The Chambers Book of Days (1864) has a [passage][1] about seventh sons and it's [also referenced][2] in Folk-Lore of Women(1906, and misleading title, it's very Victorian in its attitudes, as sacred-texts says on their index). It's an old superstition, obviously well entrenched by the mid-1800s, but the only real 'source' I've found is general stuff about the number seven being important across multiple cultures, etc etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;HOWEVER I did some digging, and found an [apocryphal Bible][3] verse, which seems to me a better source for something like this than most. Namely, [Testament of Dan][4] which is about anger, and [Fourth Book of Maccabees][5], which has a lot of sevens in it. Seven brothers, sevenfold companionship, seven days of creation, 'seven-towered right Reason', a lot of emphasis is put on the number. As for the clairvoyancy part,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Blockquote 11 And then standing on the brink of death he said, 'I am no renegade to the witness borne by my brethren.&#xD;&#xA;12 And I call upon the God of my fathers to be merciful unto my nation.&#xD;&#xA;13 And thee will he Punish both in this present life and after that thou art dead.'&#xD;&#xA;14 And with this prayer he cast himself into the red-hot brazier, and so gave up the ghost.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think this might be the closest we have to a source for this. It's vague and a bit of a stretch, but it's suitably ancient, and frankly over a few centuries even a little thing can get pulled out of proportion, so a little pseudo-prophecy before a self-sacrifice that's played as being noble isn't terribly unreasonable.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.thebookofdays.com/months/jan/26.htm#SEVENTH%20SONS%20AND%20THEIR%20SEVENTH%20SONS&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/wmn/fow/fow28.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testaments_of_the_Twelve_Patriarchs&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/fbe/fbe285.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/fbe/fbe255.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19461" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5806" RevisionGUID="0f6c8541-3e1b-4287-ac4e-ca14bca87d34" CreationDate="2019-07-25T06:51:06.063" UserId="6226" Comment="added 360 characters in body" Text="The web has only the English term, or other European languages &#xD;&#xA;(most of those translate to &quot;eternal hunting land&quot;, rather than &quot;happy&quot;).  Frustratingly, even native storytellers use the English expression.  But what was the actual name for Happy Hunting Ground, in Lakota, Narragansett, or any other language that had this concept?  And what was the *literal* meaning?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Edit: After finding completely different expressions in several plains Indians' languages (what is the PC term, plains Native Americans?), I'm beginning to think that the beliefs of plains tribes are the wrong place to look; perhaps the expression originated with the east coast woodland tribes (e.g. Hurons) and was carried west, paradoxically, by whites." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19462" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5819" RevisionGUID="1bff39c0-1f14-4102-96c0-79ef0b999fff" CreationDate="2019-07-25T08:24:21.190" UserId="5511" Text="To start with your second question, there are some indications that [stone age humans were carrying out human sacrifice](https://anthropology.net/2007/05/30/human-sacrifice-in-stone-age-europe/), though not entirely conclusive.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In contrast, a lot of evidence of human sacrifice has been found [for the neolithic era](https://en.natmus.dk/historical-knowledge/denmark/prehistoric-period-until-1050-ad/the-neolithic-period/polished-axes-of-flint/human-sacrifice-in-the-early-neolitic-period/), at the beginning phase of human settling. This predates larger settlements but is generally found for human groups that had abaondoned their hunter-gathering in favor of agriculture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What changed when settlements turned into larger, organized societies is that human sacrifice [became a way to legitimize (religious) authority and class systems](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/299572373_Ritual_human_sacrifice_promoted_and_sustained_the_evolution_of_stratified_societies). The study in the link provides an analysis of the connection between the rise of organized religions and human sacrifice in particular." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19463" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5820" RevisionGUID="a168f24e-cc57-48e8-a3f8-91017794cbbb" CreationDate="2019-07-25T08:55:57.950" UserId="5511" Text="Frank Zappa put it like this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The only difference between a cult and a religion is the amount of real estate they own&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Compare the advent of the internet to the invention of the printing press: the principle thing that changes is the velocity of myth propagation. [The printing press was one of the most important religious &quot;weapons&quot; during the reformation.](http://scarc.library.oregonstate.edu/omeka/exhibits/show/mcdonald/public/religion/)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All religions started as cults. The main criteria for a cult to survive its early phase and grow into a religion have been studied and identified by antropologists:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Charismatic Authority. This is the emotional bond between a leader and his or her followers. It lends legitimacy to the leader and grants authority to the leader’s actions while at the same time justifying and reinforcing followers’ responses to the leader and/or the leader’s ideas and goals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. Transcendent Belief System. This is the overarching ideology that binds adherents to the group and keeps them behaving according to the group’s rules and norms. It is transcendent because it offers a total explanation of past, present, and future, including the path to salvation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. Systems of Control. This is the network of acknowledged—or visible—regulatory mechanisms that guide the operation of the group. It includes the overt rules, regulations, and procedures that guide and control members’ behavior. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. Systems of Influence. This is the network of interactions and social influence that resides in the group’s social relations. This interaction and resultant group culture teach members to adapt their thoughts, attitudes, and behaviors in relation to their new beliefs. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[You can check any cult or religion (surviving or extinct), modern or ancient, against this list](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_new_religious_movements). The internet is merely a faster carrier used to permeate their specific mythology. It is a means to an end, and though the form(at) may change (like the use of YouTube in stead of text, or agressive use of social media), the goals and messages don't.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[So, of course modern cults invent their own myths or tweak/re-interpret existing ones to set them apart and make their group &quot;special&quot;](https://www.mayer.lt/resources/2000_MAYER_Religious_Movements_Internet.pdf) - just like they have done for millenia. It is through the propagation of item 2 in the list that a cult sets itself apart and establishes itself. Without a myth, a cult leader has nothing to fall back on to justify his/her leader position.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19464" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5813" RevisionGUID="45e50f71-014f-46ea-820d-ebb9caed4a85" CreationDate="2019-07-25T13:49:43.637" UserId="229" Comment="added 317 characters in body" Text="I'm afraid there probably isn't one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Growing up with some Native family myself, I gathered &quot;Happy Hunting Ground&quot; was not an actual native term they used, but rather one of those phrases white men use to make fun of them, like &quot;firewater&quot; and &quot;thunder-stick&quot;. That's the context I always heard it in.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there appears to be a [legit Wikipedia page][1] for it, so its gotta have been A Thing&lt;sup&gt;TM&lt;/sup&gt;, right? And that page mentions the Lakota by name. Those people are closely related to my own Osage, with very similar names for what are usually pretty much identical beliefs. That's significant, because there exists an Osage/English dictionary, created by one of the world's [first indigenous linguists][2] way back in the late 1800's. This was when the Osages still remembered their old beliefs, and that dictionary is chock full of religious and ceremonial terms. If it exists, it must be in there. And I happen to have a copy....&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Short answer: its not in there. Nothing remotely like it is in there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So I think, perhaps this is my first ever encounter with a large religious difference between Siouxan peoples? The [online Lakota dictionary][3] must have it...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nope. Nothing like that under &quot;happy&quot; or &quot;hunting.&quot; In fact, if you try looking up &quot;heaven&quot; there, you get the following:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mahpiya wokichunze &lt;sub&gt;n&lt;/sub&gt; heaven (Christian concept; coined by the missionaries)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other words, the Lakota didn't have anything like that. The above two words are actually the Lakota words for &quot;sky kingdom&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A bit more online ...er... hunting, netted me [this explanation][4] for the mystery:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Concerning beliefs regarding an afterlife among Plains Indians, Sioux&#xD;&#xA;&gt; physician Charles Eastman writes:  “The idea of a ‘happy&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hunting-ground’ is modern and probably borrowed, or invented by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; white man.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Charles Eastman][5] wasn't *just* a physician, but an acknowledged lecturing expert in Sioux history. Born in 1858, his maternal grandfather was a Santee Dakota chief, and his Dakota name was Ohíye S'a. We aren't going to get much closer to a primary source.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the &quot;Happy Hunting Ground&quot; is indeed a myth, but **its a white man's myth**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;OK then, you might ask, what **was** the native view of the afterlife?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Again, nothing's universal. However, the [Siouan people][6] largely shared an [animist][7] belief in a omnipresent spirit they all call something like &quot;[Wakonda][8]&quot;. This is often translated as (more literally) &quot;Great Mystery&quot; or (more commonly) &quot;Great Spirit&quot;. Europeans found it easiest to equate it to God (or The Holy Spirit), but to modern audiences its probably best to think of it as The Force. It has no gender, and it permeates everything and everyone. From this point of view, when you die, your spirit doesn't really *go* anywhere. It just becomes one with Wakonda. It might even be available for consultation from time to time, say if a Death Star needs blowing up or something.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I understand some unrelated tribes had similar beliefs, but this almost certainly wasn't universal of course.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_hunting_ground&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_La_Flesche&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.lakotadictionary.org/phpBB3/nldo.php&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://nativeamericannetroots.net/diary/1726&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Eastman&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siouan_languages&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.native-languages.org/morelegends/wakonda.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19465" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="5687" RevisionGUID="162602e3-5c7e-49e0-a071-21168d031791" CreationDate="2019-07-25T14:38:01.590" UserId="57" Comment="89" />
  <row Id="19468" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="4779" RevisionGUID="533872c7-2140-45c3-b6ad-326ae7b21b7f" CreationDate="2019-07-25T14:39:30.493" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="19474" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5821" RevisionGUID="daba7480-352a-471f-bf2d-af1fc9568628" CreationDate="2019-07-28T11:53:47.727" UserId="6243" Text="Libulan fell into the sea and after a while, he rose up again with 6 other moons who followed him around. That's the reason I frequently saw for the Seven Moons. I'm still looking for the version I read before, but there's quite a lot of them if you search. I'm not sure about their credibility though." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19476" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5823" RevisionGUID="1a3f7ea0-c0c2-4544-ac27-3d0afcd9c369" CreationDate="2019-07-29T12:33:58.783" UserId="3530" Text="In Greek mythology King Agamemnon of Mycenae, leader of the Greeks in the Trojan War, returns home victorious after the War, having captured the Trojan princess Cassandra to be his slave. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, Agamemnon is no sooner home than his wife, Queen Clytemnestra, murders both Agamemnon and Cassandra.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Clytemnestra has several reasons to kill her husband Agamemnon: revenge for things he did before the War, to enjoy supreme power herself and to be free to live with her lover Aegisthus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, why does Clytemnestra kill Cassandra too? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If Clytemnestra loved her husband Agamemnon and wanted to be with him she might have resented Cassandra as a rival for his attention, yet that does not seem to apply as Clytemnestra does not love Agamemnon nor want to live with him as his wife.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cassandra, an enslaved member of a conquered people, seems no threat. In that society where values were different from ours, Cassandra alive is valuable property, to be put to work or, if Clytemnestra already has enough slaves or does not want Cassandra around, to trade her for cattle or other things of value." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19477" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5823" RevisionGUID="1a3f7ea0-c0c2-4544-ac27-3d0afcd9c369" CreationDate="2019-07-29T12:33:58.783" UserId="3530" Text="Why does Clytemnestra kill Cassandra?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19478" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5823" RevisionGUID="1a3f7ea0-c0c2-4544-ac27-3d0afcd9c369" CreationDate="2019-07-29T12:33:58.783" UserId="3530" Text="|greek|homer|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19479" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="5687" RevisionGUID="fe38bc75-fd4f-413b-9f26-f19884e5da1d" CreationDate="2019-07-29T15:57:31.587" UserId="57" Comment="89" />
  <row Id="19482" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5345" RevisionGUID="e1873eb0-5d63-4f5b-9484-0b8b87837ad2" CreationDate="2019-07-29T19:03:35.467" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="19483" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4579" RevisionGUID="5c436d3b-9ad2-4911-b13c-b3f125c044ed" CreationDate="2019-07-29T20:03:05.387" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="19484" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5824" RevisionGUID="ebf70ee5-a42b-40ec-bfdd-3d9ee4ae10fe" CreationDate="2019-07-30T05:22:42.047" UserId="6248" Text="I did some research and the only poisonous snake in Greece which is also conveniently a viper is called the Ohia snake (Vipera ammodytes). Although when comparing that species to the 2 most famous statues of medusa's head (sculptors: Bernini and Cellini) the snakes do not match the Ohia. The head shape is similar but the scales on the heads of the snakes in both works are completely different from the head scales of the Ohia. They are more similar to the leopard snake or the European cat snake, neither of which are venomous. Another thing to consider is that one statue portrays the bodies of the snakes as completely smooth (Bernini) and the other as textured (Cellini). The textured snakes imply that the snake used to inspire the art would have had keeled scales which the Ohia snake does have and both the leopard and cat snake do not. One last important detail is that the Ohia snake has a distinctive horn that protrudes from its nose which is not depicted in either art piece. But it is worth noting that not every Ohia's horn is as prominent. Sorry for the nerd rant and I've attached pictures of each species and sculpture below. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;European cat snake photo: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=AwrTLfqhzT9dOkYAp1w2nIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTBsZ29xY3ZzBHNlYwNzZWFyY2gEc2xrA2J1dHRvbg--;_ylc=X1MDMTM1MTE5NTcwMgRfcgMyBGFjdG4DY2xrBGNzcmNwdmlkA3ZMYUlXekV3TGpLeDN1b2RYT29sOWdmR01qWXdNUUFBQUFEUFp5LkUEZnIDeWhzLWlyeS1mdWxseWhvc3RlZF8wMTEEZnIyA3NhLWdwBGdwcmlkA3hpM0ZtZHFOU2t5VG43TWVzOGFOMEEEbl9zdWdnAzAEb3JpZ2luA2ltYWdlcy5zZWFyY2gueWFob28uY29tBHBvcwMwBHBxc3RyAwRwcXN0cmwDBHFzdHJsAzE5BHF1ZXJ5A2NhdCUyMHNuYWtlY3JldGUlMjAEdF9zdG1wAzE1NjQ0NjI1MDU-?p=cat+snakecrete+&amp;fr=yhs-iry-fullyhosted_011&amp;fr2=sb-top-images.search&amp;ei=UTF-8&amp;n=60&amp;x=wrt&amp;type=mcx_me3579bdfpyzsegikmoq6vy_19_21_ssg0312&amp;hsimp=yhs-fullyhosted_011&amp;hspart=iry&amp;param1=yhsbeacon&amp;param2=f%3D4%26b%3DSafari%26cc%3DUS%26pa%3Dmcyahoo%26cd%3D2XzuyEtN2Y1L1QzuzztBtB1RzztCtCtBtCtCtDtAtAyD1QyB1TyBtBtB1OyDzz1PyD1Qzy1RzztAyC1PyC1SyDtAyE1Rzy1TtN1L1G1B1V1N2Y1L1Qzu2SyEtB0E0EzzzzyDyDtGtA0FtCyEtGyEzyyD0BtGzytDtDyDtGyDtAtB0BtBzyzzzz0A0AzyyB2QtN1Q2Zzu0StByBtDtCtN1L2XzutAtFyCtFtCtBtFtCtN1L1CzutN1T1IzuyEtN1B2Z1V1T1S1Nzu%26cr%3D1937959850%26a%3Dmcx_me3579bdfpyzsegikmoq6vy_19_21_ssg0312&amp;y=Search#id=4&amp;iurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nhmc.uoc.gr%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fstyles%2Faspect_checker%2Fpublic%2Fprivate%2Fimages%2F50656_1.jpg%3Fitok%3DmRzD2hYp&amp;action=click&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;leopard snake photo: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=AwrVk6J8zT9d4kMASQAPxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTB0NjZjZzZhBGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNwaXZz?p=leopard+snake&amp;ei=UTF-8&amp;type=mcx_me3579bdfpyzsegikmoq6vy_19_21_ssg0312&amp;hspart=iry&amp;hsimp=yhs-fullyhosted_011&amp;param1=yhsbeacon&amp;param2=f%3D4%26b%3DSafari%26cc%3DUS%26pa%3Dmcyahoo%26cd%3D2XzuyEtN2Y1L1QzuzztBtB1RzztCtCtBtCtCtDtAtAyD1QyB1TyBtBtB1OyDzz1PyD1Qzy1RzztAyC1PyC1SyDtAyE1Rzy1TtN1L1G1B1V1N2Y1L1Qzu2SyEtB0E0EzzzzyDyDtGtA0FtCyEtGyEzyyD0BtGzytDtDyDtGyDtAtB0BtBzyzzzz0A0AzyyB2QtN1Q2Zzu0StByBtDtCtN1L2XzutAtFyCtFtCtBtFtCtN1L1CzutN1T1IzuyEtN1B2Z1V1T1S1Nzu%26cr%3D1937959850%26a%3Dmcx_me3579bdfpyzsegikmoq6vy_19_21_ssg0312&amp;fr=yhs-iry-fullyhosted_011#id=5&amp;iurl=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-poopcCzZI68%2FVHWPa78hDcI%2FAAAAAAAABVc%2FKLsybBrFB60%2Fs1600%2FLeopard%252BSnake%252B290106.jpg&amp;action=click&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ohia snake photo: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=AwrWmjxQzj9d1x0AMgEPxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTB0NjZjZzZhBGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNwaXZz?p=Vipera+ammodytes&amp;type=mcx_me3579bdfpyzsegikmoq6vy_19_21_ssg0312&amp;hspart=iry&amp;hsimp=yhs-fullyhosted_011&amp;param1=yhsbeacon&amp;param2=f%3D4%26b%3DSafari%26cc%3DUS%26pa%3Dmcyahoo%26cd%3D2XzuyEtN2Y1L1QzuzztBtB1RzztCtCtBtCtCtDtAtAyD1QyB1TyBtBtB1OyDzz1PyD1Qzy1RzztAyC1PyC1SyDtAyE1Rzy1TtN1L1G1B1V1N2Y1L1Qzu2SyEtB0E0EzzzzyDyDtGtA0FtCyEtGyEzyyD0BtGzytDtDyDtGyDtAtB0BtBzyzzzz0A0AzyyB2QtN1Q2Zzu0StByBtDtCtN1L2XzutAtFyCtFtCtBtFtCtN1L1CzutN1T1IzuyEtN1B2Z1V1T1S1Nzu%26cr%3D1937959850%26a%3Dmcx_me3579bdfpyzsegikmoq6vy_19_21_ssg0312&amp;ei=UTF-8&amp;fr=yhs-iry-fullyhosted_011#id=6&amp;iurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.herpetofauna.at%2Fberichte%2Fpeloponnes%2Fpart1%2Fvipera_ammodytes.jpg&amp;action=click&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Bernini's Medusa photo: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=AwrWnXGn0D9d9XcA6gQPxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTB0NjZjZzZhBGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNwaXZz?p=famous+medusa+statue&amp;type=mcx_me3579bdfpyzsegikmoq6vy_19_21_ssg0312&amp;hspart=iry&amp;hsimp=yhs-fullyhosted_011&amp;param1=yhsbeacon&amp;param2=f%3D4%26b%3DSafari%26cc%3DUS%26pa%3Dmcyahoo%26cd%3D2XzuyEtN2Y1L1QzuzztBtB1RzztCtCtBtCtCtDtAtAyD1QyB1TyBtBtB1OyDzz1PyD1Qzy1RzztAyC1PyC1SyDtAyE1Rzy1TtN1L1G1B1V1N2Y1L1Qzu2SyEtB0E0EzzzzyDyDtGtA0FtCyEtGyEzyyD0BtGzytDtDyDtGyDtAtB0BtBzyzzzz0A0AzyyB2QtN1Q2Zzu0StByBtDtCtN1L2XzutAtFyCtFtCtBtFtCtN1L1CzutN1T1IzuyEtN1B2Z1V1T1S1Nzu%26cr%3D1937959850%26a%3Dmcx_me3579bdfpyzsegikmoq6vy_19_21_ssg0312&amp;ei=UTF-8&amp;fr=yhs-iry-fullyhosted_011#id=15&amp;iurl=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-J1S4G5s6oWM%2FTvY523CuXwI%2FAAAAAAAAMVc%2FcNYuzYqJL1k%2Fs1600%2Fbernin_OZ_20111223170336.jpg&amp;action=click&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cellini's Medusa photo: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=AwrWnXGn0D9d9XcA6gQPxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTB0NjZjZzZhBGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNwaXZz?p=famous+medusa+statue&amp;type=mcx_me3579bdfpyzsegikmoq6vy_19_21_ssg0312&amp;hspart=iry&amp;hsimp=yhs-fullyhosted_011&amp;param1=yhsbeacon&amp;param2=f%3D4%26b%3DSafari%26cc%3DUS%26pa%3Dmcyahoo%26cd%3D2XzuyEtN2Y1L1QzuzztBtB1RzztCtCtBtCtCtDtAtAyD1QyB1TyBtBtB1OyDzz1PyD1Qzy1RzztAyC1PyC1SyDtAyE1Rzy1TtN1L1G1B1V1N2Y1L1Qzu2SyEtB0E0EzzzzyDyDtGtA0FtCyEtGyEzyyD0BtGzytDtDyDtGyDtAtB0BtBzyzzzz0A0AzyyB2QtN1Q2Zzu0StByBtDtCtN1L2XzutAtFyCtFtCtBtFtCtN1L1CzutN1T1IzuyEtN1B2Z1V1T1S1Nzu%26cr%3D1937959850%26a%3Dmcx_me3579bdfpyzsegikmoq6vy_19_21_ssg0312&amp;ei=UTF-8&amp;fr=yhs-iry-fullyhosted_011#id=13&amp;iurl=https%3A%2F%2Fs-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com%2Foriginals%2F98%2Fed%2F60%2F98ed604324230ead43fcb0c5e5adb67c.jpg&amp;action=click&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19485" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5825" RevisionGUID="1f2aad29-ae66-48bb-8860-7ba327a5f154" CreationDate="2019-07-30T15:11:28.933" UserId="6250" Text="My faint impression is that Pecos Bill had a herd of such creatures.  To catch them, all you had to do was turn them around and they would fall over." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19486" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5826" RevisionGUID="b9c417e3-1967-4474-a3d3-a16aa83b1e31" CreationDate="2019-07-30T15:12:20.687" UserId="5013" Text="I just finished translating the 1812/15 first edition of the Grimms “Kinder und Hausmärchen” (KHM) so I have a few ideas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here are some of my thoughts (and in no particular order).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Grimms differentiated  between “Märchen” and “Sagen” (legends). Their “Deutsche Sagen” were published after the KHM and contain short texts of German legends – i.e. things that supposedly really happened at some time and at a particular place. These were different from Märchen because they took place in actual real word locations and at specific times. Märchen on the other hand, are not linked to any particular time or place. Donald Ward translated the DS into English many years ago. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jacob Grimm also published books titled “Deutsche Mythologie.” Fortunately James Stallybrass translated these 4 books into English in the 19th century.  English language readers can read the English translation of Jacob’s Deutsche Mythologie in the translation “Teutonic Mythology” by James Stallybrass -Vol I, Vol II, Vol III, Vol IV. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If a “creature” can also be a character, then one should look at 1815 #4, 5, 6, 7&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The order of the texts in the KHM is not haphazard or random. The four texts - #4 Regarding a Young Giant, #5 Dat Erdmanniken, #6 The King From the Golden Mountain and #7 The Raveness (Raven Girl) - were also placed together by the Grimms because they were of the opinion that all of the texts related to the Siegfreid Saga. The young boy in #4 is Siegfried. The boy, like Siegfried, hits clumsily when working for the smith (Reign). In #5, they say that: “The earthmanlet is Euglin and Alberich, whom the hero also makes through force predisposed to him.” In #6 they note that: “The agreement with Sigfried first starts, where the youngster like he is driven away upon the water. The king’s daughter, that he frees, is after the German Saga Chrimhild upon the Drachenstein, but otherwise, especially after the Nordic Saga, Brunhild, because for Gudrun (that is Grimhild) he does there, as in the Niebelung Lied, nothing. The dragon, who holds her captive, appears in the way, that she herself is transformed into a snake.” They also note the similarity of the becoming invisible with the “Tarnkappe” [cloaking-cap] in the Nibelungenlied. “In his relationship to the queen also shines that of Brunhild through, she knows, as in the Nordic Saga, that he will become un-happy, when he goes away from her, and her connection to him has something secret.” In #7, they note that: “The golden palace on the Glasberg is the Flame-hall [of] the Nordic saga almost concurring with the old Danish song of Elskovsviser … where Bryniel sits upon the Glasberg; which only a special horse (Grani) is able to climb. The relation and the switching of the flame and the shimmering Glasberg lies very close. – The sleeping-potion, from which she warns him and which overpowers him, is the forgetting-potion [of] the Nordic Grimhild.” All of this is more completely described in the Anhang, the one that most American and English translators (apart from myself and Margaret Hunt) do not deem important enough to translate completely. #50, #51, #52, and #53 were also placed together because they were all Low German Dialect texts. Other texts such as #61 and #62 were also placed together because they dealt with God, Jesus and imitation. Hunt’s translation is available at: http://www.archive.org/stream/grimmshouseholdt2grim#page/n7/mode/2up.&#xD;&#xA;It is in the Anhang that the Grimms discuss the origins of the texts, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;KHM 1815 # 8, “The Clever Farm-Daughter” contains a trace of the sage of Aslaug, daughter of Brynhild and Sigurd.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here an excerpt of my translation of the Anhang entry to the 1815 #22. “Hans my Igel” &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“ 22. Hans my Igel.&#xD;&#xA;(From Zwehrn.] Is king Porc from Straparola (ii.1.) but here better, [more] fantastical and original, only Hans should have told a king the way and [was] deceived, in that he first, as by Straparola, in the third time is released. Igel [hedgehog] Stachelschwein [thorn-pig] und Schwein [pig] are mythically one, as Porc and Porcaris; below in another also good depiction it is a donkey (no. 58.). These two Märchen make with No. 1. and 68. in the first volume and No. 2 13 41 in this [one] a row [of] related [tales], upon which still others not so related attach, compare the there found Anmerkungen. Regarding the basic idea see an Anmerkung to the altdän. Liedern. P. 528. 529.&#xD;&#xA;People, which impetuously implore God for child-blessings, are often punished in Märchen with such fail-births, that they hereafter, when the parents are humiliated, still transform into humans. – The return of the child into the paternal house is as in the Young Giant in No. 4. &#xD;&#xA;Notes:&#xD;&#xA;Igel = hedgehog.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wilhelm adds a note: “the Finkenritter rides as Hans upon a rooster.” Rölleke states that this refers to “Der Finkenritter, ein Volksbuch, Straßburg around 1560.””&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other creatures? Talking frogs, cats, horses, the devil, wights, elves, lions, birds, donkey, lamb, fish, the fox of course, crows, giants, etc., etc. All are probably also found in German mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All in all, the Appendix to the KHM and Jacob’s “Deutsche Mythologie” will probably explain much of it.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19487" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5826" RevisionGUID="db5c0258-6069-4ec1-9678-0a15ba1b7bda" CreationDate="2019-07-30T17:50:51.047" UserId="5013" Comment="added 343 characters in body" Text="I just finished translating the 1812/15 first edition of the Grimms “Kinder und Hausmärchen” (KHM) so I have a few ideas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here are some of my thoughts (and in no particular order).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Grimms differentiated  between “Märchen” and “Sagen” (legends). Their “Deutsche Sagen” were published after the KHM and contain short texts of German legends – i.e. things that supposedly really happened at some time and at a particular place. These were different from Märchen because they took place in actual real word locations and at specific times. Märchen on the other hand, are not linked to any particular time or place. Donald Ward translated the DS into English many years ago. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jacob Grimm also published books titled “Deutsche Mythologie.” Fortunately James Stallybrass translated these 4 books into English in the 19th century.  English language readers can read the English translation of Jacob’s Deutsche Mythologie in the translation “Teutonic Mythology” by James Stallybrass -Vol I, Vol II, Vol III, Vol IV. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If a “creature” can also be a character, then one should look at 1815 #4, 5, 6, 7&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The order of the texts in the KHM is not haphazard or random. The four texts - #4 Regarding a Young Giant, #5 Dat Erdmanniken, #6 The King From the Golden Mountain and #7 The Raveness (Raven Girl) - were also placed together by the Grimms because they were of the opinion that all of the texts related to the Siegfreid Saga. The young boy in #4 is Siegfried. The boy, like Siegfried, hits clumsily when working for the smith (Reign). In #5, they say that: “The earthmanlet is Euglin and Alberich, whom the hero also makes through force predisposed to him.” In #6 they note that: “The agreement with Sigfried first starts, where the youngster like he is driven away upon the water. The king’s daughter, that he frees, is after the German Saga Chrimhild upon the Drachenstein, but otherwise, especially after the Nordic Saga, Brunhild, because for Gudrun (that is Grimhild) he does there, as in the Niebelung Lied, nothing. The dragon, who holds her captive, appears in the way, that she herself is transformed into a snake.” They also note the similarity of the becoming invisible with the “Tarnkappe” [cloaking-cap] in the Nibelungenlied. “In his relationship to the queen also shines that of Brunhild through, she knows, as in the Nordic Saga, that he will become un-happy, when he goes away from her, and her connection to him has something secret.” In #7, they note that: “The golden palace on the Glasberg is the Flame-hall [of] the Nordic saga almost concurring with the old Danish song of Elskovsviser … where Bryniel sits upon the Glasberg; which only a special horse (Grani) is able to climb. The relation and the switching of the flame and the shimmering Glasberg lies very close. – The sleeping-potion, from which she warns him and which overpowers him, is the forgetting-potion [of] the Nordic Grimhild.” All of this is more completely described in the Anhang, the one that most American and English translators (apart from myself and Margaret Hunt) do not deem important enough to translate completely. #50, #51, #52, and #53 were also placed together because they were all Low German Dialect texts. Other texts such as #61 and #62 were also placed together because they dealt with God, Jesus and imitation. Hunt’s translation is available at: http://www.archive.org/stream/grimmshouseholdt2grim#page/n7/mode/2up.&#xD;&#xA;It is in the Anhang that the Grimms discuss the origins of the texts, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;KHM 1815 # 8, “The Clever Farm-Daughter” contains a trace of the sage of Aslaug, daughter of Brynhild and Sigurd.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here an excerpt of my translation of the Anhang entry to the 1815 #22. “Hans my Igel” &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“ 22. Hans my Igel.&#xD;&#xA;(From Zwehrn.] Is king Porc from Straparola (ii.1.) but here better, [more] fantastical and original, only Hans should have told a king the way and [was] deceived, in that he first, as by Straparola, in the third time is released. Igel [hedgehog] Stachelschwein [thorn-pig] und Schwein [pig] are mythically one, as Porc and Porcaris; below in another also good depiction it is a donkey (no. 58.). These two Märchen make with No. 1. and 68. in the first volume and No. 2 13 41 in this [one] a row [of] related [tales], upon which still others not so related attach, compare the there found Anmerkungen. Regarding the basic idea see an Anmerkung to the altdän. Liedern. P. 528. 529.&#xD;&#xA;People, which impetuously implore God for child-blessings, are often punished in Märchen with such fail-births, that they hereafter, when the parents are humiliated, still transform into humans. – The return of the child into the paternal house is as in the Young Giant in No. 4. &#xD;&#xA;Notes:&#xD;&#xA;Igel = hedgehog.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wilhelm adds a note: “the Finkenritter rides as Hans upon a rooster.” Rölleke states that this refers to “Der Finkenritter, ein Volksbuch, Straßburg around 1560.””&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other creatures? Talking frogs, cats, horses, the devil, wights, elves, lions, birds, donkey, lamb, fish, the fox of course, crows, giants, etc., etc. All are probably also found in German mythology. Ands we can't forget about dragons and conversations with them. Consider the dragon Fafnir, the eating of the hear and understanding the speech of birds. Tolkien's &quot;conversation with Smaug&quot; also reminds much on Sigurd's conversation with the dragon Fafnir. Knowing someones name also give one power over them - think of Rumplestiltskin, etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All in all, the Appendix to the KHM and Jacob’s “Deutsche Mythologie” will probably explain much of it.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19488" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5827" RevisionGUID="f65f5c4d-2045-4347-937a-b30fe8d36e24" CreationDate="2019-07-30T18:10:20.887" UserId="5013" Text="Not sure if this qualifies, but the Grimms included a text they called “The Hand with the Knife” as #8 in the first ed. of the Kinder und Hausmärchen (KHM). It was translated by Jacob Grimm from the book by Ann Grant, “Essays on the Superstitions of the Highlanders of Scotland, London” 1811. vol. 1, 285, 286.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Grant does not specifically state who initates the contact, just that whenever the girl passes, her fairy lover gives her the magical knife.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From Ann Grant’s book:&#xD;&#xA;“One of these, which I have heard children at a very early age sing, and which is just to them, the Babes in the Wood, I can never forget. The affecting simplicity of the tune, the strange wild imagery, and the marks of the remote antiquity in the little narrative, gave it the greatest interest to me, who delight in tracing back poetry to its infancy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;	A little girl had been innocently beloved by a fairy, who dwelt in a tomham near her mother’s habitation. She had three brothers, who were the favorites of her mother. She herself was treated harshly, and tasked beyond her strength: Her employment was to go every morning and cut a certain quantity of turf from dry heathy ground, for immediate fuel; and this with some uncouth and primitive implement.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;	As she passed the hillock, which contained her lover, he regularly put out his hand with a very sharp knife, of such power, that it quickly and readily cut through all impediments. She returned cheerfully and early with her load of turf; and, as she passed by the hillock, she struck on it twice, and the fairy stretched out his hand through the surface, and received the knife.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;	The mother, however, told the brothers, that her daughter must certainly have had some aid to perform the allotted task. They watched her, saw her receive the enchanted knife, and forced it from her. They returned, struck the hillock, as she was wont to do, and when the fairy put out his hand, they cut it off with his own knife. He drew in the bleeding arm, in despair, and supposing this cruelty was the result of treachery on the part of his beloved, never saw her anymore. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;	I am very sorry, that the spirit of this most primitive song could not be transfused into English, but it is as volatile as the fragrance of the wild lily, and would, like it, evaporate, when moved from its place.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;	I shall try, however, how two or three stanzas will look in literal English.&#xD;&#xA;	The maiden speaks, and, as is usual in all very old songs, the first verse is repeated as a chorus to the rest.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;	“I behold yonder the tomhan covered with rowan* `	and holly.&#xD;&#xA;	“ Dear to me is the treasure which it contains.&#xD;&#xA;	“ Sweet and deep as my slumber&#xD;&#xA;	“ On the brink of the lake many salmon.&#xD;&#xA;	“ I awoke, and half my bed remained not.&#xD;&#xA;	“ I see yonder the tomhan of rowan and holly, &amp;c.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;	“ I see my brothers afar yonder,&#xD;&#xA;	“ Mounted on sleek swift grey steeds:&#xD;&#xA;	“ They ride, but my heart goes not with them.&#xD;&#xA;	“ I see yonder the tomhan, &amp;c.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;	“ I see the house of my mother afar off;&#xD;&#xA;	“ Not as it were a house, but a place deserted.&#xD;&#xA;	“ While sweet slumber falls on others,&#xD;&#xA;	“ Green flames shall encompass her feet.&#xD;&#xA;	“ I see yonder the tomhan of rowan and holly;&#xD;&#xA;	“ Dear to me is the treasure it contains.”&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;	*Rowan, mountain Ash.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first thing to be observed of this little melancholy ditty, is the picture of the manners which it presents. The brothers are, in no doubt, hunters, and leave the hard task of cutting heathery turf to their little sister. A knife is a thing of rare and highly valued. The hardhearted brothers are persons of no ordinary condition. They are mounted on horses fleet, sleek, and of the favourite colour, when such animals conferred distinction on those who possessed them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;	She uses a most expressive figure to denote the misfortune which had overtaken her. While enjoying a sweet refreshing sleep on the banks of the lake of salmon, a phrase meant to express ease and plenty, the water washes under her, and deprives her of half her bed; a metaphor signifying the loss of her future repose. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;	What she says of her brothers is highly expressive. The third verse describes her feelings on seeing them pass at a distance. They are mounted on sleek swift steeds: Yet though they move on with all this air of power and consequence, does not accompany them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;	The final verse contains something like an imprecation on her mother, which is difficult to reconcile to the impassioned veneration with which parents are mentioned in all reliques on ancient poetry.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;	Here, too, occurs and expressive figure, consonant to the stile prevalent to this day, in their emphatic language. – “I see the house of my mother, not as if it were a house, but merely a bare place.” There is no longer any thing in the domestic hearth to create an interest. I see the habitation of my mother with as much indifference as if it were a deserted spot.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;	The green flames which are to surround or consume her mother’s feet, while others slept sweetly, must have been a figure to denote a disturbed mind; or, perhaps, it might be descriptive of some punishment inflicted by the offended fairies. Green flames, or flames edged with green, being often used to express the dubious luster of an ignis fatuus, or other wandering meteor. This fragment is accounted the most ancient extant, and bears the marks of very primitive modes of thinking, and expressing one’s sensations.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also more explanation of the song and the story in the book which is available on-line:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anne Grant Archive.org Link&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19489" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5824" RevisionGUID="0ea4f43f-838d-4032-a818-1b469fbb598d" CreationDate="2019-07-30T18:25:04.323" UserId="2892" Comment="added 61 characters in body" Text="I did some research and the only poisonous snake in Greece which is also conveniently a viper is called the Ohia snake (Vipera ammodytes). Although when comparing that species to the 2 most famous statues of medusa's head (sculptors: Bernini and Cellini) the snakes do not match the Ohia. The head shape is similar but the scales on the heads of the snakes in both works are completely different from the head scales of the Ohia. They are more similar to the leopard snake or the European cat snake, neither of which are venomous. Another thing to consider is that one statue portrays the bodies of the snakes as completely smooth (Bernini) and the other as textured (Cellini). The textured snakes imply that the snake used to inspire the art would have had keeled scales which the Ohia snake does have and both the leopard and cat snake do not. One last important detail is that the Ohia snake has a distinctive horn that protrudes from its nose which is not depicted in either art piece. But it is worth noting that not every Ohia's horn is as prominent. Sorry for the nerd rant and I've attached pictures of each species and sculpture below. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[European cat snake photo][1] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[leopard snake photo][2] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ohia snake photo][3] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Bernini's Medusa photo][4] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Cellini's Medusa photo][5] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=AwrTLfqhzT9dOkYAp1w2nIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTBsZ29xY3ZzBHNlYwNzZWFyY2gEc2xrA2J1dHRvbg--;_ylc=X1MDMTM1MTE5NTcwMgRfcgMyBGFjdG4DY2xrBGNzcmNwdmlkA3ZMYUlXekV3TGpLeDN1b2RYT29sOWdmR01qWXdNUUFBQUFEUFp5LkUEZnIDeWhzLWlyeS1mdWxseWhvc3RlZF8wMTEEZnIyA3NhLWdwBGdwcmlkA3hpM0ZtZHFOU2t5VG43TWVzOGFOMEEEbl9zdWdnAzAEb3JpZ2luA2ltYWdlcy5zZWFyY2gueWFob28uY29tBHBvcwMwBHBxc3RyAwRwcXN0cmwDBHFzdHJsAzE5BHF1ZXJ5A2NhdCUyMHNuYWtlY3JldGUlMjAEdF9zdG1wAzE1NjQ0NjI1MDU-?p=cat%20snakecrete%20&amp;fr=yhs-iry-fullyhosted_011&amp;fr2=sb-top-images.search&amp;ei=UTF-8&amp;n=60&amp;x=wrt&amp;type=mcx_me3579bdfpyzsegikmoq6vy_19_21_ssg0312&amp;hsimp=yhs-fullyhosted_011&amp;hspart=iry&amp;param1=yhsbeacon&amp;param2=f%3D4%26b%3DSafari%26cc%3DUS%26pa%3Dmcyahoo%26cd%3D2XzuyEtN2Y1L1QzuzztBtB1RzztCtCtBtCtCtDtAtAyD1QyB1TyBtBtB1OyDzz1PyD1Qzy1RzztAyC1PyC1SyDtAyE1Rzy1TtN1L1G1B1V1N2Y1L1Qzu2SyEtB0E0EzzzzyDyDtGtA0FtCyEtGyEzyyD0BtGzytDtDyDtGyDtAtB0BtBzyzzzz0A0AzyyB2QtN1Q2Zzu0StByBtDtCtN1L2XzutAtFyCtFtCtBtFtCtN1L1CzutN1T1IzuyEtN1B2Z1V1T1S1Nzu%26cr%3D1937959850%26a%3Dmcx_me3579bdfpyzsegikmoq6vy_19_21_ssg0312&amp;y=Search#id=4&amp;iurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nhmc.uoc.gr%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fstyles%2Faspect_checker%2Fpublic%2Fprivate%2Fimages%2F50656_1.jpg%3Fitok%3DmRzD2hYp&amp;action=click&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=AwrVk6J8zT9d4kMASQAPxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTB0NjZjZzZhBGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNwaXZz?p=leopard%20snake&amp;ei=UTF-8&amp;type=mcx_me3579bdfpyzsegikmoq6vy_19_21_ssg0312&amp;hspart=iry&amp;hsimp=yhs-fullyhosted_011&amp;param1=yhsbeacon&amp;param2=f%3D4%26b%3DSafari%26cc%3DUS%26pa%3Dmcyahoo%26cd%3D2XzuyEtN2Y1L1QzuzztBtB1RzztCtCtBtCtCtDtAtAyD1QyB1TyBtBtB1OyDzz1PyD1Qzy1RzztAyC1PyC1SyDtAyE1Rzy1TtN1L1G1B1V1N2Y1L1Qzu2SyEtB0E0EzzzzyDyDtGtA0FtCyEtGyEzyyD0BtGzytDtDyDtGyDtAtB0BtBzyzzzz0A0AzyyB2QtN1Q2Zzu0StByBtDtCtN1L2XzutAtFyCtFtCtBtFtCtN1L1CzutN1T1IzuyEtN1B2Z1V1T1S1Nzu%26cr%3D1937959850%26a%3Dmcx_me3579bdfpyzsegikmoq6vy_19_21_ssg0312&amp;fr=yhs-iry-fullyhosted_011#id=5&amp;iurl=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-poopcCzZI68%2FVHWPa78hDcI%2FAAAAAAAABVc%2FKLsybBrFB60%2Fs1600%2FLeopard%252BSnake%252B290106.jpg&amp;action=click&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=AwrWmjxQzj9d1x0AMgEPxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTB0NjZjZzZhBGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNwaXZz?p=Vipera%20ammodytes&amp;type=mcx_me3579bdfpyzsegikmoq6vy_19_21_ssg0312&amp;hspart=iry&amp;hsimp=yhs-fullyhosted_011&amp;param1=yhsbeacon&amp;param2=f%3D4%26b%3DSafari%26cc%3DUS%26pa%3Dmcyahoo%26cd%3D2XzuyEtN2Y1L1QzuzztBtB1RzztCtCtBtCtCtDtAtAyD1QyB1TyBtBtB1OyDzz1PyD1Qzy1RzztAyC1PyC1SyDtAyE1Rzy1TtN1L1G1B1V1N2Y1L1Qzu2SyEtB0E0EzzzzyDyDtGtA0FtCyEtGyEzyyD0BtGzytDtDyDtGyDtAtB0BtBzyzzzz0A0AzyyB2QtN1Q2Zzu0StByBtDtCtN1L2XzutAtFyCtFtCtBtFtCtN1L1CzutN1T1IzuyEtN1B2Z1V1T1S1Nzu%26cr%3D1937959850%26a%3Dmcx_me3579bdfpyzsegikmoq6vy_19_21_ssg0312&amp;ei=UTF-8&amp;fr=yhs-iry-fullyhosted_011#id=6&amp;iurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.herpetofauna.at%2Fberichte%2Fpeloponnes%2Fpart1%2Fvipera_ammodytes.jpg&amp;action=click&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=AwrWnXGn0D9d9XcA6gQPxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTB0NjZjZzZhBGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNwaXZz?p=famous%20medusa%20statue&amp;type=mcx_me3579bdfpyzsegikmoq6vy_19_21_ssg0312&amp;hspart=iry&amp;hsimp=yhs-fullyhosted_011&amp;param1=yhsbeacon&amp;param2=f%3D4%26b%3DSafari%26cc%3DUS%26pa%3Dmcyahoo%26cd%3D2XzuyEtN2Y1L1QzuzztBtB1RzztCtCtBtCtCtDtAtAyD1QyB1TyBtBtB1OyDzz1PyD1Qzy1RzztAyC1PyC1SyDtAyE1Rzy1TtN1L1G1B1V1N2Y1L1Qzu2SyEtB0E0EzzzzyDyDtGtA0FtCyEtGyEzyyD0BtGzytDtDyDtGyDtAtB0BtBzyzzzz0A0AzyyB2QtN1Q2Zzu0StByBtDtCtN1L2XzutAtFyCtFtCtBtFtCtN1L1CzutN1T1IzuyEtN1B2Z1V1T1S1Nzu%26cr%3D1937959850%26a%3Dmcx_me3579bdfpyzsegikmoq6vy_19_21_ssg0312&amp;ei=UTF-8&amp;fr=yhs-iry-fullyhosted_011#id=15&amp;iurl=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-J1S4G5s6oWM%2FTvY523CuXwI%2FAAAAAAAAMVc%2FcNYuzYqJL1k%2Fs1600%2Fbernin_OZ_20111223170336.jpg&amp;action=click&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=AwrWnXGn0D9d9XcA6gQPxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTB0NjZjZzZhBGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNwaXZz?p=famous%20medusa%20statue&amp;type=mcx_me3579bdfpyzsegikmoq6vy_19_21_ssg0312&amp;hspart=iry&amp;hsimp=yhs-fullyhosted_011&amp;param1=yhsbeacon&amp;param2=f%3D4%26b%3DSafari%26cc%3DUS%26pa%3Dmcyahoo%26cd%3D2XzuyEtN2Y1L1QzuzztBtB1RzztCtCtBtCtCtDtAtAyD1QyB1TyBtBtB1OyDzz1PyD1Qzy1RzztAyC1PyC1SyDtAyE1Rzy1TtN1L1G1B1V1N2Y1L1Qzu2SyEtB0E0EzzzzyDyDtGtA0FtCyEtGyEzyyD0BtGzytDtDyDtGyDtAtB0BtBzyzzzz0A0AzyyB2QtN1Q2Zzu0StByBtDtCtN1L2XzutAtFyCtFtCtBtFtCtN1L1CzutN1T1IzuyEtN1B2Z1V1T1S1Nzu%26cr%3D1937959850%26a%3Dmcx_me3579bdfpyzsegikmoq6vy_19_21_ssg0312&amp;ei=UTF-8&amp;fr=yhs-iry-fullyhosted_011#id=13&amp;iurl=https%3A%2F%2Fs-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com%2Foriginals%2F98%2Fed%2F60%2F98ed604324230ead43fcb0c5e5adb67c.jpg&amp;action=click" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19490" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5824" RevisionGUID="ba0bf65c-0a8a-4e6d-8bde-fd41acffeb83" CreationDate="2019-07-30T18:29:01.693" UserId="42" Comment="Embedding images." Text="I did some research and the only poisonous snake in Greece which is also conveniently a viper is called the Ohia snake (Vipera ammodytes). Although when comparing that species to the 2 most famous statues of medusa's head (sculptors: Bernini and Cellini) the snakes do not match the Ohia. The head shape is similar but the scales on the heads of the snakes in both works are completely different from the head scales of the Ohia. They are more similar to the leopard snake or the European cat snake, neither of which are venomous. Another thing to consider is that one statue portrays the bodies of the snakes as completely smooth (Bernini) and the other as textured (Cellini). The textured snakes imply that the snake used to inspire the art would have had keeled scales which the Ohia snake does have and both the leopard and cat snake do not. One last important detail is that the Ohia snake has a distinctive horn that protrudes from its nose which is not depicted in either art piece. But it is worth noting that not every Ohia's horn is as prominent. Sorry for the nerd rant and I've attached pictures of each species and sculpture below. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;European cat snake:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![European cat snake][1] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Leopard snake:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Leopard snake][2] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ohia snake:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Ohia snake][3] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Bernini's Medusa:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Bernini's Medusa][4] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cellini's Medusa:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Cellini's Medusa][5] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.nhmc.uoc.gr/sites/default/files/styles/aspect_checker/public/private/images/50656_1.jpg?itok=mRzD2hYp&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-poopcCzZI68/VHWPa78hDcI/AAAAAAAABVc/KLsybBrFB60/s1600/Leopard%2BSnake%2B290106.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.vcPkoJLPZBLg0CY8D2FXtAHaE7&amp;pid=Api&amp;P=0&amp;w=247&amp;h=166&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-J1S4G5s6oWM/TvY523CuXwI/AAAAAAAAMVc/cNYuzYqJL1k/s1600/bernin_OZ_20111223170336.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/98/ed/60/98ed604324230ead43fcb0c5e5adb67c.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19491" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5828" RevisionGUID="e9cc4e7b-78ff-48bd-837a-7a9e0b4e855b" CreationDate="2019-07-30T19:25:25.680" UserId="2892" Text=" - Aeschylus claims jealousy:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; CASSANDRA: This two-footed lioness, who mates with a wolf in the absence of the noble lion, will slay me, miserable as I am. Brewing as it were a drug, she vows that with her wrath she will mix requital for me too, while she whets her sword against her husband, to take murderous vengeance for bringing me here. &lt;BR&gt;&lt;SUB&gt;Source: [*Agamemnon* 1256 ff.][1]&lt;/SUB&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The two-footed lioness is Clytaemestra and the wolf is [Aegisthus][2], Agamemnon's cousin, who was prophesied to be his killer. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; CLYTAEMESTRA: Here lies the man who did me wrong, plaything of each Chryseis at Ilium; and here she lies, his captive, and auguress, and concubine, his oracular faithful whore, yet equally familiar with the seamen's benches. The pair has met no undeserved fate. For he lies thus; while she, who, like a swan, has sung her last lament in death, lies here, his beloved; but to me she has brought for my bed an added relish of delight.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&lt;SUB&gt;Source: [*ibid.* 1438 ff.][3]&lt;/SUB&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although Cassandra laments in the Aeschylus play, she rejoices in this fate as a means of vengeance against the killer of her family:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; CASSANDRA: O mother, crown my head with victor's wreaths; rejoice in my royal match; lead me and if you find me unwilling at all, thrust me there by force; for if Loxias is indeed a prophet, Agamemnon, that famous king of the Achaeans, will find in me a bride more vexatious than Helen. For I will slay him and lay waste his home to avenge my father's and my brothers' death.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[*The Trojan Women* 353 ff.][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are strong theories that Cassandra is the &quot;net&quot; cast upon Agamemnon in his bath, to tangle him up for the killing stroke.  Euripides implies this is the case both symbolically, and potentially actually (does Cassandra struggle to keep Agamemnon from effectively defending himself?)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Robert Graves proposes a etymology of her name (although the second part of her name is Greek, the first has no direct root) which implies &quot;tangler of men&quot;. Graves uses a form of [κατά][5]+[σωτήρ][6] -- against salvation to pull from the water (i.e. fishing nets which are the death of the fish) + ἀνδρών &quot;man&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a strong theory because nets are a symbol of the goddess in general, related to the Latin &quot;[matrix][7]&quot; (womb), and nets are widely and specifically referenced in conjunction with Agamemnon's death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have a personal theory that her name may also relate to the Indo-European [*kes-][8] which relates to castration (the cutting off of a male's power, similar to the overthrow of [Ouranos][9]), and also to chastity, which was an attribute of the virgin priestess Cassandra before her forced concubinage to Agamemnon, and also to [castigate][10]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;There are other, more obscure, versions of the myth in which Cassandra is not murdered. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0004%3Acard%3D1242&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegisthus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0004%3Acard%3D1431&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0124%3Acard%3D341&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkata%2F1&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dswth%2Fr&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/matrix#Latin&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/roots.aspx?type=Indo-European&amp;root=kes-&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranus_(mythology)#Greek_mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/castigate" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19492" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5828" RevisionGUID="1e428ad2-7aea-4b09-8f75-2eed597760ad" CreationDate="2019-07-30T19:31:49.230" UserId="2892" Comment="added 230 characters in body" Text=" - Aeschylus claims jealousy:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; CASSANDRA: This two-footed lioness, who mates with a wolf in the absence of the noble lion, will slay me, miserable as I am. Brewing as it were a drug, she vows that with her wrath she will mix requital for me too, while she whets her sword against her husband, to take murderous vengeance for bringing me here. &lt;BR&gt;&lt;SUB&gt;Source: [*Agamemnon* 1256 ff.][1]&lt;/SUB&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The two-footed lioness is Clytaemestra and the wolf is [Aegisthus][2], Agamemnon's cousin, who was prophesied to be his killer. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; CLYTAEMESTRA: Here lies the man who did me wrong, plaything of each Chryseis at Ilium; and here she lies, his captive, and auguress, and concubine, his oracular faithful whore, yet equally familiar with the seamen's benches. The pair has met no undeserved fate. For he lies thus; while she, who, like a swan, has sung her last lament in death, lies here, his beloved; but to me she has brought for my bed an added relish of delight.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&lt;SUB&gt;Source: [*ibid.* 1438 ff.][3]&lt;/SUB&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although Cassandra laments in the Aeschylus play, she rejoices in this fate as a means of vengeance against the killer of her family:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; CASSANDRA: O mother, crown my head with victor's wreaths; rejoice in my royal match; lead me and if you find me unwilling at all, thrust me there by force; for if Loxias is indeed a prophet, Agamemnon, that famous king of the Achaeans, will find in me a bride more vexatious than Helen. For I will slay him and lay waste his home to avenge my father's and my brothers' death.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[*The Trojan Women* 353 ff.][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are strong theories that Cassandra is the &quot;net&quot; cast upon Agamemnon in his bath, to tangle him up for the killing stroke.  Euripides implies this is the case both symbolically, and potentially actually (does Cassandra struggle to keep Agamemnon from effectively defending himself?)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Robert Graves proposes a etymology of her name (although the second part of her name is Greek, the first has no direct root) which implies &quot;tangler of men&quot;. Graves uses a form of [κατά][5]+[σωτήρ][6] -- against salvation to pull from the water (i.e. fishing nets which are the death of the fish) + ἀνδρών &quot;man&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a strong theory because nets are a symbol of the goddess in general, related to the Latin &quot;[matrix][7]&quot; (womb), and nets are widely and specifically referenced in conjunction with Agamemnon's death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have a personal theory that her name may also relate to the Indo-European [*kes-][8] which relates to castration (the cutting off of a male's power, similar to the overthrow of [Ouranos][9]), and also to chastity, which was an attribute of the virgin priestess Cassandra before her forced concubinage to Agamemnon, and also to [castigate][10]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;NOTES&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are other, more obscure, versions of the myth in which Cassandra is not murdered. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The verb form of the root of &quot;salvation&quot; Graves uses seems lexically outdated--as I recall it was σωυ-.  This term is strongly related to the salvation of sailors, in that Ancient Greece was a highly nautical culture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0004%3Acard%3D1242&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegisthus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0004%3Acard%3D1431&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0124%3Acard%3D341&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkata%2F1&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dswth%2Fr&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/matrix#Latin&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/roots.aspx?type=Indo-European&amp;root=kes-&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranus_(mythology)#Greek_mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/castigate" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19493" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5828" RevisionGUID="e8e957f6-0162-44a1-9241-f06e695ef7de" CreationDate="2019-07-30T19:37:10.333" UserId="2892" Comment="added 230 characters in body" Text=" - Aeschylus claims jealousy:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; CASSANDRA: This two-footed lioness, who mates with a wolf in the absence of the noble lion, will slay me, miserable as I am. Brewing as it were a drug, she vows that with her wrath she will mix requital for me too, while she whets her sword against her husband, to take murderous vengeance for bringing me here. &lt;BR&gt;&lt;SUB&gt;Source: [*Agamemnon* 1256 ff.][1]&lt;/SUB&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The two-footed lioness is Clytaemestra and the wolf is [Aegisthus][2], Agamemnon's cousin, who was prophesied to be his killer. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; CLYTAEMESTRA: Here lies the man who did me wrong, plaything of each Chryseis at Ilium; and here she lies, his captive, and auguress, and concubine, his oracular faithful whore, yet equally familiar with the seamen's benches. The pair has met no undeserved fate. For he lies thus; while she, who, like a swan, has sung her last lament in death, lies here, his beloved; but to me she has brought for my bed an added relish of delight.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&lt;SUB&gt;Source: [*ibid.* 1438 ff.][3]&lt;/SUB&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although Cassandra laments in the Aeschylus play, she rejoices in this fate as a means of vengeance against the killer of her family:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; CASSANDRA: O mother, crown my head with victor's wreaths; rejoice in my royal match; lead me and if you find me unwilling at all, thrust me there by force; for if Loxias is indeed a prophet, Agamemnon, that famous king of the Achaeans, will find in me a bride more vexatious than Helen. For I will slay him and lay waste his home to avenge my father's and my brothers' death.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[*The Trojan Women* 353 ff.][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are strong theories that Cassandra is the &quot;net&quot; cast upon Agamemnon in his bath, to tangle him up for the killing stroke.  Euripides implies this is the case both symbolically, and potentially actually (does Cassandra struggle to keep Agamemnon from effectively defending himself?)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Robert Graves proposes a etymology of her name (although the second part of her name is Greek, the first has no direct root) which implies &quot;tangler of men&quot;. Graves uses a contracted form of [κατά][5]+[σωτήρ][6] -- against salvation to pull from the water (i.e. fishing nets which are the death of the fish) + ἀνδρών &quot;man&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a strong theory because nets are a symbol of the goddess in general, related to the Latin &quot;[matrix][7]&quot; (womb), and nets are widely and specifically referenced in conjunction with Agamemnon's death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have a personal theory that her name may also relate to the Indo-European [*kes-][8] which relates to castration (the cutting off of a male's power, similar to the overthrow of [Ouranos][9]), and also to chastity, which was an attribute of the virgin priestess Cassandra before her forced concubinage to Agamemnon, and also to [castigate][10]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;NOTES&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are other, more obscure, versions of the myth in which Cassandra is not murdered. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The verb form of the root of &quot;salvation&quot; Graves uses seems lexically outdated--as I recall it was σωυ-.  This term is strongly related to the salvation of sailors, in that Ancient Greece was a highly nautical culture.  (A good modern explication of this can be found in Eliot's [Dry Salvages][11], most directly in section IV.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0004%3Acard%3D1242&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegisthus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0004%3Acard%3D1431&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0124%3Acard%3D341&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkata%2F1&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dswth%2Fr&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/matrix#Latin&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/roots.aspx?type=Indo-European&amp;root=kes-&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranus_(mythology)#Greek_mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/castigate&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.davidgorman.com/4quartets/3-salvages.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19494" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5828" RevisionGUID="b8fea492-83b4-4886-b396-fa4fbd6d82a3" CreationDate="2019-07-30T19:54:00.137" UserId="2892" Comment="added 6 characters in body" Text=" - Aeschylus claims jealousy:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; CASSANDRA: This two-footed lioness, who mates with a wolf in the absence of the noble lion, will slay me, miserable as I am. Brewing as it were a drug, she vows that with her wrath she will mix requital for me too, while she whets her sword against her husband, to take murderous vengeance for bringing me here. &lt;BR&gt;&lt;SUB&gt;Source: [*Agamemnon* 1256 ff.][1]&lt;/SUB&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The two-footed lioness is Clytaemestra and the wolf is [Aegisthus][2], Agamemnon's cousin, who was prophesied to be his killer. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; CLYTAEMESTRA: Here lies the man who did me wrong, plaything of each Chryseis at Ilium; and here she lies, his captive, and auguress, and concubine, his oracular faithful whore, yet equally familiar with the seamen's benches. The pair has met no undeserved fate. For he lies thus; while she, who, like a swan, has sung her last lament in death, lies here, his beloved; but to me she has brought for my bed an added relish of delight.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&lt;SUB&gt;Source: [*ibid.* 1438 ff.][3]&lt;/SUB&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although Cassandra laments in the Aeschylus play, she rejoices in this fate as a means of vengeance against the killer of her family:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; CASSANDRA: O mother, crown my head with victor's wreaths; rejoice in my royal match; lead me and if you find me unwilling at all, thrust me there by force; for if Loxias is indeed a prophet, Agamemnon, that famous king of the Achaeans, will find in me a bride more vexatious than Helen. For I will slay him and lay waste his home to avenge my father's and my brothers' death.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[*The Trojan Women* 353 ff.][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are strong theories that Cassandra is the &quot;net&quot; cast upon Agamemnon in his bath, to tangle him up for the killing stroke.  Euripides implies this is the case both symbolically, and potentially actually (does Cassandra struggle to keep Agamemnon from effectively defending himself?)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Robert Graves proposes a etymology of her name (although the second part of her name is Greek, the first has no direct root) which implies &quot;tangler of men&quot;. Graves uses a contracted form of [κατά][5]+[σωτήρ][6] -- against salvation to pull from the water (i.e. fishing nets which are the death of the fish) + ἀνδρών &quot;man&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a strong theory because nets are a symbol of the goddess in general, related to the Latin &quot;[matrix][7]&quot; (womb), and nets are widely and specifically referenced in conjunction with Agamemnon's death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have a personal theory that her name may also relate to the Indo-European [*kes-/*kas-][8] which relates to castration (the cutting off of a male's power, similar to the overthrow of [Ouranos][9]), and also to chastity, which was an attribute of the virgin priestess Cassandra before her forced concubinage to Agamemnon, and also to [castigate][10]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;NOTES&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are other, more obscure, versions of the myth in which Cassandra is not murdered. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The verb form of the root of &quot;salvation&quot; Graves uses seems lexically outdated--as I recall it was συω-.  This term is strongly related to the salvation of sailors, in that Ancient Greece was a highly nautical culture.  (A good modern explication of this can be found in Eliot's [Dry Salvages][11], most directly in section IV.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0004%3Acard%3D1242&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegisthus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0004%3Acard%3D1431&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0124%3Acard%3D341&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkata%2F1&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dswth%2Fr&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/matrix#Latin&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/roots.aspx?type=Indo-European&amp;root=kes-&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranus_(mythology)#Greek_mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/castigate&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.davidgorman.com/4quartets/3-salvages.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19495" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5828" RevisionGUID="6d6b14ad-03fe-454a-8f57-0005e8ee6439" CreationDate="2019-07-30T20:01:42.020" UserId="2892" Comment="added 6 characters in body" Text=" - Aeschylus claims jealousy:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; CASSANDRA: This two-footed lioness, who mates with a wolf in the absence of the noble lion, will slay me, miserable as I am. Brewing as it were a drug, she vows that with her wrath she will mix requital for me too, while she whets her sword against her husband, to take murderous vengeance for bringing me here. &lt;BR&gt;&lt;SUB&gt;Source: [*Agamemnon* 1256 ff.][1]&lt;/SUB&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The two-footed lioness is Clytaemestra and the wolf is [Aegisthus][2], Agamemnon's cousin, who was prophesied to be his killer. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; CLYTAEMESTRA: Here lies the man who did me wrong, plaything of each Chryseis at Ilium; and here she lies, his captive, and auguress, and concubine, his oracular faithful whore, yet equally familiar with the seamen's benches. The pair has met no undeserved fate. For he lies thus; while she, who, like a swan, has sung her last lament in death, lies here, his beloved; but to me she has brought for my bed an added relish of delight.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&lt;SUB&gt;Source: [*ibid.* 1438 ff.][3]&lt;/SUB&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Aeschylus, Clytaemestra sees as both an insult and a threat. (In various places in the Troy cycle, Agamemnon talks about putting concubines above his wife.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although Cassandra laments in the Aeschylus play, she rejoices in this fate as a means of vengeance against the killer of her family:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; CASSANDRA: O mother, crown my head with victor's wreaths; rejoice in my royal match; lead me and if you find me unwilling at all, thrust me there by force; for if Loxias is indeed a prophet, Agamemnon, that famous king of the Achaeans, will find in me a bride more vexatious than Helen. For I will slay him and lay waste his home to avenge my father's and my brothers' death.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[*The Trojan Women* 353 ff.][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are strong theories that Cassandra is the &quot;net&quot; cast upon Agamemnon in his bath, to tangle him up for the killing stroke.  Euripides implies this is the case both symbolically, and potentially actually (does Cassandra struggle to keep Agamemnon from effectively defending himself?)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Robert Graves proposes a etymology of her name (although the second part of her name is Greek, the first has no direct root) which implies &quot;tangler of men&quot;. Graves uses a contracted form of [κατά][5]+[σωτήρ][6] -- against salvation to pull from the water (i.e. fishing nets which are the death of the fish) + ἀνδρών &quot;man&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a strong theory because nets are a symbol of the goddess in general, related to the Latin &quot;[matrix][7]&quot; (womb), and nets are widely and specifically referenced in conjunction with Agamemnon's death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have a personal theory that her name may also relate to the Indo-European [*kes-/*kas-][8] which relates to castration (the cutting off of a male's power, similar to the overthrow of [Ouranos][9]), and also to chastity, which was an attribute of the virgin priestess Cassandra before her forced concubinage to Agamemnon, and also to [castigate][10]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;NOTES&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are other, more obscure, versions of the myth in which Cassandra is not murdered. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The verb form of the root of &quot;salvation&quot; Graves uses seems lexically outdated--as I recall it was συω-.  This term is strongly related to the salvation of sailors, in that Ancient Greece was a highly nautical culture.  (A good modern explication of this can be found in Eliot's [Dry Salvages][11], most directly in section IV.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0004%3Acard%3D1242&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegisthus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0004%3Acard%3D1431&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0124%3Acard%3D341&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkata%2F1&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dswth%2Fr&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/matrix#Latin&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/roots.aspx?type=Indo-European&amp;root=kes-&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranus_(mythology)#Greek_mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/castigate&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.davidgorman.com/4quartets/3-salvages.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19496" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5826" RevisionGUID="c316b7f8-e60d-43d9-af14-a19739a770d4" CreationDate="2019-07-30T22:30:07.697" UserId="5013" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="I just finished translating the 1812/15 first edition of the Grimms “Kinder und Hausmärchen” (KHM) so I have a few ideas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here are some of my thoughts (and in no particular order).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Grimms differentiated  between “Märchen” and “Sagen” (legends). Their “Deutsche Sagen” (DS) were published after the KHM and contain short texts of German legends – i.e. things that supposedly really happened at some time and at a particular place. These were different from Märchen because they took place in actual real word locations and at specific times. Märchen on the other hand, are not linked to any particular time or place. Donald Ward translated the DS into English many years ago. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jacob Grimm also published books titled “Deutsche Mythologie.” Fortunately James Stallybrass translated these 4 books into English in the 19th century.  English language readers can read the English translation of Jacob’s Deutsche Mythologie in the translation “Teutonic Mythology” by James Stallybrass -Vol I, Vol II, Vol III, Vol IV. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If a “creature” can also be a character, then one should look at 1815 #4, 5, 6, 7&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The order of the texts in the KHM is not haphazard or random. The four texts - #4 Regarding a Young Giant, #5 Dat Erdmanniken, #6 The King From the Golden Mountain and #7 The Raveness (Raven Girl) - were also placed together by the Grimms because they were of the opinion that all of the texts related to the Siegfreid Saga. The young boy in #4 is Siegfried. The boy, like Siegfried, hits clumsily when working for the smith (Reign). In #5, they say that: “The earthmanlet is Euglin and Alberich, whom the hero also makes through force predisposed to him.” In #6 they note that: “The agreement with Sigfried first starts, where the youngster like he is driven away upon the water. The king’s daughter, that he frees, is after the German Saga Chrimhild upon the Drachenstein, but otherwise, especially after the Nordic Saga, Brunhild, because for Gudrun (that is Grimhild) he does there, as in the Niebelung Lied, nothing. The dragon, who holds her captive, appears in the way, that she herself is transformed into a snake.” They also note the similarity of the becoming invisible with the “Tarnkappe” [cloaking-cap] in the Nibelungenlied. “In his relationship to the queen also shines that of Brunhild through, she knows, as in the Nordic Saga, that he will become un-happy, when he goes away from her, and her connection to him has something secret.” In #7, they note that: “The golden palace on the Glasberg is the Flame-hall [of] the Nordic saga almost concurring with the old Danish song of Elskovsviser … where Bryniel sits upon the Glasberg; which only a special horse (Grani) is able to climb. The relation and the switching of the flame and the shimmering Glasberg lies very close. – The sleeping-potion, from which she warns him and which overpowers him, is the forgetting-potion [of] the Nordic Grimhild.” All of this is more completely described in the Anhang, the one that most American and English translators (apart from myself and Margaret Hunt) do not deem important enough to translate completely. #50, #51, #52, and #53 were also placed together because they were all Low German Dialect texts. Other texts such as #61 and #62 were also placed together because they dealt with God, Jesus and imitation. Hunt’s translation is available at: http://www.archive.org/stream/grimmshouseholdt2grim#page/n7/mode/2up.&#xD;&#xA;It is in the Anhang that the Grimms discuss the origins of the texts, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;KHM 1815 # 8, “The Clever Farm-Daughter” contains a trace of the sage of Aslaug, daughter of Brynhild and Sigurd.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here an excerpt of my translation of the Anhang entry to the 1815 #22. “Hans my Igel” &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“ 22. Hans my Igel.&#xD;&#xA;(From Zwehrn.] Is king Porc from Straparola (ii.1.) but here better, [more] fantastical and original, only Hans should have told a king the way and [was] deceived, in that he first, as by Straparola, in the third time is released. Igel [hedgehog] Stachelschwein [thorn-pig] und Schwein [pig] are mythically one, as Porc and Porcaris; below in another also good depiction it is a donkey (no. 58.). These two Märchen make with No. 1. and 68. in the first volume and No. 2 13 41 in this [one] a row [of] related [tales], upon which still others not so related attach, compare the there found Anmerkungen. Regarding the basic idea see an Anmerkung to the altdän. Liedern. P. 528. 529.&#xD;&#xA;People, which impetuously implore God for child-blessings, are often punished in Märchen with such fail-births, that they hereafter, when the parents are humiliated, still transform into humans. – The return of the child into the paternal house is as in the Young Giant in No. 4. &#xD;&#xA;Notes:&#xD;&#xA;Igel = hedgehog.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wilhelm adds a note: “the Finkenritter rides as Hans upon a rooster.” Rölleke states that this refers to “Der Finkenritter, ein Volksbuch, Straßburg around 1560.””&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other creatures? Talking frogs, cats, horses, the devil, wights, elves, lions, birds, donkey, lamb, fish, the fox of course, crows, giants, etc., etc. All are probably also found in German mythology. Ands we can't forget about dragons and conversations with them. Consider the dragon Fafnir, the eating of the heart and understanding the speech of birds. Tolkien's &quot;conversation with Smaug&quot; also reminds much on Sigurd's conversation with the dragon Fafnir. Knowing someones name also give one power over them - think of Rumplestiltskin, etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All in all, the Appendix to the KHM and Jacob’s “Deutsche Mythologie” will probably explain much of it.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19497" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5826" RevisionGUID="bc7f7b36-2310-40ea-b308-e7867474059c" CreationDate="2019-07-30T22:45:07.897" UserId="5013" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="I just finished translating the 1812/15 first edition of the Grimms “Kinder und Hausmärchen” (KHM) so I have a few ideas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here are some of my thoughts (and in no particular order).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Grimms differentiated  between “Märchen” and “Sagen” (legends). Their “Deutsche Sagen” (DS) were published after the KHM and contain short texts of German legends – i.e. things that supposedly really happened at some time and at a particular place. These were different from Märchen because they took place in actual real word locations and at specific times. Märchen on the other hand, are not linked to any particular time or place. Donald Ward translated the DS into English many years ago. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jacob Grimm also published books titled “Deutsche Mythologie.” Fortunately James Stallybrass translated these 4 books into English in the 19th century.  English language readers can read the English translation of Jacob’s Deutsche Mythologie in the translation “Teutonic Mythology” by James Stallybrass -Vol I, Vol II, Vol III, Vol IV. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If a “creature” can also be a character, then one should look at 1815 #4, 5, 6, 7&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The order of the texts in the KHM is not haphazard or random. The four texts - #4 Regarding a Young Giant, #5 Dat Erdmanniken, #6 The King From the Golden Mountain and #7 The Raveness (Raven Girl) - were also placed together by the Grimms because they were of the opinion that all of the texts related to the Siegfreid Saga. The young boy in #4 is Siegfried. The boy, like Siegfried, hits clumsily when working for the smith (Reign). In #5, they say that: “The earthmanlet is Euglin and Alberich, whom the hero also makes through force predisposed to him.” In #6 they note that: “The agreement with Sigfried first starts, where the youngster like he is driven away upon the water. The king’s daughter, that he frees, is after the German Saga Chrimhild upon the Drachenstein, but otherwise, especially after the Nordic Saga, Brunhild, because for Gudrun (that is Grimhild) he does there, as in the Niebelung Lied, nothing. The dragon, who holds her captive, appears in the way, that she herself is transformed into a snake.” They also note the similarity of the becoming invisible with the “Tarnkappe” [cloaking-cap] in the Nibelungenlied. “In his relationship to the queen also shines that of Brunhild through, she knows, as in the Nordic Saga, that he will become un-happy, when he goes away from her, and her connection to him has something secret.” In #7, they note that: “The golden palace on the Glasberg is the Flame-hall [of] the Nordic saga almost concurring with the old Danish song of Elskovsviser … where Bryniel sits upon the Glasberg; which only a special horse (Grani) is able to climb. The relation and the switching of the flame and the shimmering Glasberg lies very close. – The sleeping-potion, from which she warns him and which overpowers him, is the forgetting-potion [of] the Nordic Grimhild.” All of this is more completely described in the Anhang, the one that most American and English translators (apart from myself and Margaret Hunt) do not deem important enough to translate completely. #50, #51, #52, and #53 were also placed together because they were all Low German Dialect texts. Other texts such as #61 and #62 were also placed together because they dealt with God, Jesus and imitation. Hunt’s translation is available at: http://www.archive.org/stream/grimmshouseholdt2grim#page/n7/mode/2up.&#xD;&#xA;It is in the Anhang that the Grimms discuss the origins of the texts, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;KHM 1815 # 8, “The Clever Farm-Daughter” contains a trace of the sage of Aslaug, daughter of Brynhild and Sigurd.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here an excerpt of my translation of the Anhang entry to the 1815 #22. “Hans my Igel” &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“ 22. Hans my Igel.&#xD;&#xA;(From Zwehrn.] Is king Porc from Straparola (ii.1.) but here better, [more] fantastical and original, only Hans should have told a king the way and [was] deceived, in that he first, as by Straparola, in the third time is released. Igel [hedgehog] Stachelschwein [thorn-pig] und Schwein [pig] are mythically one, as Porc and Porcaris; below in another also good depiction it is a donkey (no. 58.). These two Märchen make with No. 1. and 68. in the first volume and No. 2 13 41 in this [one] a row [of] related [tales], upon which still others not so related attach, compare the there found Anmerkungen. Regarding the basic idea see an Anmerkung to the altdän. Liedern. P. 528. 529.&#xD;&#xA;People, which impetuously implore God for child-blessings, are often punished in Märchen with such fail-births, that they hereafter, when the parents are humiliated, still transform into humans. – The return of the child into the paternal house is as in the Young Giant in No. 4. &#xD;&#xA;Notes:&#xD;&#xA;Igel = hedgehog.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wilhelm adds a note: “the Finkenritter rides as Hans upon a rooster.” Rölleke states that this refers to “Der Finkenritter, ein Volksbuch, Straßburg around 1560.””&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other creatures? Talking frogs, cats, horses, the devil, wights, elves, lions, birds, donkey, lamb, fish, the fox of course, crows, giants, etc., etc. All are probably also found in German mythology. Ands we can't forget about dragons and conversations with them. Consider the dragon Fafnir, the eating of the heart and understanding the speech of birds. Tolkien's &quot;conversation with Smaug&quot; also reminds much on Sigurd's conversation with the dragon Fafnir. Knowing someones name also give one power over them - think of Rumplestiltskin, etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All in all, the Appendix to the KHM and Jacob’s “Deutsche Mythologie” will probably explain much of it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lastly, I would not limit the question to creatures only. Much of what is found in the KHM can also be found in myth. For example (and in no particular order) - the cutting off of horses heads (Falada) -horse heads were considered to protect from enemies. Some houses today still have horse heads on their gables. That speech continues to live in Falada's head is as with Odin and Mimir who councils him after his head is cut off. The arguing of giants regarding the division of treasure, etc., etc. Characters often go over or into water to reach the &quot;other realm,&quot; the  &quot;other world.&quot; This might go back to the idea that the realm of the dead was underwater at the bottom of rivers, lakes, and oceans. Frau Holle can only be reached when the girl falls down into the well. The Undying Lands, home of Tolkien's elves is also reached by going &quot;over water&quot; as I recall.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19499" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5829" RevisionGUID="bbba7f52-d4c0-4cac-bf36-d8c1b22df458" CreationDate="2019-07-31T00:19:28.107" UserId="5329" Text="why does Achilles continue fighting? after killing Hector and eventually dying at the gates of Troy?&#xD;&#xA;He only returned to avenge Patroculous and he did that.  Didn't he end up feeling empathy for Priam and the Trojans?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19500" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5829" RevisionGUID="bbba7f52-d4c0-4cac-bf36-d8c1b22df458" CreationDate="2019-07-31T00:19:28.107" UserId="5329" Text="why does Achilles continue fighting?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19501" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5829" RevisionGUID="bbba7f52-d4c0-4cac-bf36-d8c1b22df458" CreationDate="2019-07-31T00:19:28.107" UserId="5329" Text="|greek|trojan-war|achilles|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19502" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5830" RevisionGUID="aec4d41f-b996-4a8f-8bd3-2a62edcc8222" CreationDate="2019-07-31T01:28:43.927" UserId="6251" Text="This is an interesting question. I'm not sure there's an actual start date for the 5th sun according to any scholar, but that is a task I'd like to investigate further. However, I'm not quite sure there will be one. Take for example Greeks and Romans. While there's a myth that relates their cosmogony, there's no date that accounts for it. Rather, the time is actually accounted starting on the foundation of their cities. Take Rome for example. Aztecs did the same. I guess it's like trying to determine the date of the creation according to the judeo-christian bible, which by the way Isaac Newton tried in his time." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19503" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5831" RevisionGUID="9108180c-4a9a-45c5-bdcd-b7432144afdc" CreationDate="2019-07-31T07:47:26.277" UserDisplayName="user6252" Text="As the myth goes, Kronos swallowed this children as they were presented to him, so he could prevent the prophecy. But why couldn't he kill them? Or at least chew them up a little unti" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19504" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5831" RevisionGUID="9108180c-4a9a-45c5-bdcd-b7432144afdc" CreationDate="2019-07-31T07:47:26.277" UserDisplayName="user6252" Text="Why did Kronos swallow his children up, instead of killing them?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19505" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5831" RevisionGUID="9108180c-4a9a-45c5-bdcd-b7432144afdc" CreationDate="2019-07-31T07:47:26.277" UserDisplayName="user6252" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19506" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5831" RevisionGUID="2b1635fc-1858-4ec3-86dd-c881efa71404" CreationDate="2019-07-31T07:52:59.183" UserDisplayName="user6252" Comment="deleted 39 characters in body" Text="As the myth goes, Kronos swallowed this children as they were presented to him, so he could prevent the prophecy. But why couldn't he kill them?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19507" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4820" RevisionGUID="6d4b2d4c-cd20-488e-b2c4-872bda22b319" CreationDate="2019-07-31T09:01:50.223" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="19508" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5829" RevisionGUID="a777e2fa-e6b6-4928-904a-c6d0ad6714e9" CreationDate="2019-07-31T09:58:09.500" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 44 characters in body; edited title" Text="Why does Achilles continue fighting after killing Hector?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He only returned to avenge Patroclus and he did that. Didn't he end up feeling empathy for Priam and the Trojans?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19509" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5829" RevisionGUID="a777e2fa-e6b6-4928-904a-c6d0ad6714e9" CreationDate="2019-07-31T09:58:09.500" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 44 characters in body; edited title" Text="Why does Achilles continue fighting?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19510" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5832" RevisionGUID="21b70dad-2dfc-42ab-a237-5cc15144b316" CreationDate="2019-07-31T13:25:00.800" UserId="5511" Text="[A recent study in psychology](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6095990/) found considerable evidence suggesting that applying human-like traits to non-human entities, like animals, shapes, and supernatural beings, may constitute an innate cognitive bias, a bias that is common among all human minds. This behavior is therefore not considered to be primarily dependent on culture (and consequentially the need for similarities in cultures). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19512" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5828" RevisionGUID="26c39b7d-acc1-44f1-abe8-0ee61c952107" CreationDate="2019-07-31T17:04:16.707" UserId="2892" Comment="added 41 characters in body" Text=" - Aeschylus claims jealousy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; CASSANDRA: This two-footed lioness, who mates with a wolf in the absence of the noble lion, will slay me, miserable as I am. Brewing as it were a drug, she vows that with her wrath she will mix requital for me too, while she whets her sword against her husband, to take murderous vengeance for bringing me here. &lt;BR&gt;&lt;SUB&gt;Source: [*Agamemnon* 1256 ff.][1]&lt;/SUB&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The two-footed lioness is Clytaemestra and the wolf is [Aegisthus][2], Agamemnon's cousin, who was prophesied to be his killer. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; CLYTAEMESTRA: Here lies the man who did me wrong, plaything of each Chryseis at Ilium; and here she lies, his captive, and auguress, and concubine, his oracular faithful whore, yet equally familiar with the seamen's benches. The pair has met no undeserved fate. For he lies thus; while she, who, like a swan, has sung her last lament in death, lies here, his beloved; but to me she has brought for my bed an added relish of delight.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&lt;SUB&gt;Source: [*ibid.* 1438 ff.][3]&lt;/SUB&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Aeschylus, Clytaemestra sees as both an insult and a threat. (In various places in the Troy cycle, Agamemnon talks about putting concubines above his wife.)  So, jealousy in the form of resentment.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although Cassandra laments in the Aeschylus play, she rejoices in this fate as a means of vengeance against the killer of her family:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; CASSANDRA: O mother, crown my head with victor's wreaths; rejoice in my royal match; lead me and if you find me unwilling at all, thrust me there by force; for if Loxias is indeed a prophet, Agamemnon, that famous king of the Achaeans, will find in me a bride more vexatious than Helen. For I will slay him and lay waste his home to avenge my father's and my brothers' death.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[*The Trojan Women* 353 ff.][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are strong theories that Cassandra is the &quot;net&quot; cast upon Agamemnon in his bath, to tangle him up for the killing stroke.  Euripides implies this is the case both symbolically, and potentially actually (does Cassandra struggle to keep Agamemnon from effectively defending himself?)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Robert Graves proposes a etymology of her name (although the second part of her name is Greek, the first has no direct root) which implies &quot;tangler of men&quot;. Graves uses a contracted form of [κατά][5]+[σωτήρ][6] -- against salvation to pull from the water (i.e. fishing nets which are the death of the fish) + ἀνδρών &quot;man&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a strong theory because nets are a symbol of the goddess in general, related to the Latin &quot;[matrix][7]&quot; (womb), and nets are widely and specifically referenced in conjunction with Agamemnon's death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have a personal theory that her name may also relate to the Indo-European [*kes-/*kas-][8] which relates to castration (the cutting off of a male's power, similar to the overthrow of [Ouranos][9]), and also to chastity, which was an attribute of the virgin priestess Cassandra before her forced concubinage to Agamemnon, and also to [castigate][10]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;NOTES&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are other, more obscure, versions of the myth in which Cassandra is not murdered. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The verb form of the root of &quot;salvation&quot; Graves uses seems lexically outdated--as I recall it was συω-.  This term is strongly related to the salvation of sailors, in that Ancient Greece was a highly nautical culture.  (A good modern explication of this can be found in Eliot's [Dry Salvages][11], most directly in section IV.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0004%3Acard%3D1242&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegisthus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0004%3Acard%3D1431&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0124%3Acard%3D341&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkata%2F1&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dswth%2Fr&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/matrix#Latin&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/roots.aspx?type=Indo-European&amp;root=kes-&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranus_(mythology)#Greek_mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/castigate&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.davidgorman.com/4quartets/3-salvages.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19513" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5833" RevisionGUID="cad584de-99a3-45e9-bab7-2aab75cae627" CreationDate="2019-07-31T17:08:24.850" UserId="2892" Text="In [Madeline Miller][1]'s *Song of Achilles* she posits that, after the death of his beloved friend, Achilles is seeking death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This makes sense because the prophecy about Achilles' death was that if he took part in the fighting at Troy, he would die there. Once he enters combat to avenge Patroclus, his fate is sealed.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Miller presents his time post-Patroclus as one of inconsolable mourning for his lost companion. Death is a release from this conscious suffering.  There is at least the chance of being re-united with Patroclus in the underworld. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeline_Miller" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19514" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5834" RevisionGUID="b1f8bb07-7891-45fd-8aa8-505076d01646" CreationDate="2019-08-01T01:26:29.103" UserId="5329" Text="How did the ancient Greeks deal with the concept of fate that is the characters have &quot;free will&quot; they are intelligent and their choices are not predetermined but certain events are predetermined.  (this is my understanding)  &#xD;&#xA;What is Priam just killed Paris as a baby?    What if he later killed/exhiled Paris or at least didn't make him the Trojan ambasador?   (possibly not canon) What if Priam immediately returned Helen and had Paris killed/exiled?  What if Priam made Paris continue the duel until one of him /Menelaus was dead?.. etc&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why couldn't Oedipus just refuse to marry anyone or at least anyone older?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19515" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5834" RevisionGUID="b1f8bb07-7891-45fd-8aa8-505076d01646" CreationDate="2019-08-01T01:26:29.103" UserId="5329" Text="fate in mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19516" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5834" RevisionGUID="b1f8bb07-7891-45fd-8aa8-505076d01646" CreationDate="2019-08-01T01:26:29.103" UserId="5329" Text="|greek|trojan-war|oedipus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19517" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5170" RevisionGUID="356d463b-19ac-4632-9203-b435b4f053e2" CreationDate="2019-08-01T12:53:17.813" UserId="1317" Comment="Clarify Helen's status in the Iliad" Text="&lt;h2&gt;No.&lt;/h2&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From both an ancient philosophical approach, and one based on human nature, this was impossible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some of the answers cite the _Iliad_ to show some attempts to avert the city's destruction, but these were already doomed to fail. Priam decided not to give Helen back directly, and when Menelaus bested Paris in combat, the gods spirited him away.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact, this whole question incorrectly approaches the subject from a modern point of view  -- the ancient Greeks didn't think like that. The core of their philosophy was **[Fatalism](http://agroeh.blogspot.com/2011/11/moirae-and-graeae.html)**, or the belief that destiny (plus the whims of the gods) controlled events, and not men's actions. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The whole story of the Trojan War is imbued with the impossibility of avoiding fate. [Hecuba](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecuba)'s dream while carrying Paris, and its outcome, demonstrate this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The first son born to her was Hector; and when a second babe was about to be born Hecuba dreamed she had brought forth a firebrand, and that the fire spread over the whole city and burned it. When Priam learned of the dream from Hecuba, he sent for his son [Aesacus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesacus), for he was an interpreter of dreams, having been taught by his mother's father Merops. He declared that the child was begotten to be the ruin of his country and advised that the babe should be exposed. When the babe was born Priam gave it to a servant to take and expose on Ida; now the servant was named Agelaus. Exposed by him, the infant was nursed for five days by a bear; and, when he found it safe, he took it up, carried it away, brought it up as his own son on his farm, and named him [Paris](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_(mythology)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pseudo-Apollodorus, _[Bibliotheca](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliotheca_(Pseudo-Apollodorus))_, [3.12.5](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D3%3Achapter%3D12%3Asection%3D5), Tr. Sir James George Fraser&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The prophecy in Hecuba's dream is fulfilled, despite everyone's attempts to avoid it. Troy's destruction was assured by Paris's survival as an infant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After Achilles slays Hector, Hecuba makes direct reference to Fate while trying to persuade Priam from going to beg Achilles for the body:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Let us then weep Hector from afar here in our own house, for **when I gave him birth the threads of overruling fate were spun for him that dogs should eat his flesh far from his parents**, in the house of that terrible man on whose liver I would fain fasten and devour it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;MIT Internet Classics Archive,  _Iliad_, [book 24](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.24.xxiv.html), 209, tr. Samuel Butler &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So let's leave mythology behind and treat the characters in the Iliad as real people, or at least the heroic archetypes Homer was depicting. On a level of human nature, the destruction of Troy was also inevitable. Even if Fate wasn't controlling everything, the Greeks and Trojans couldn't help but make decisions that led to the city's destruction.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although triggered by Paris's abduction of Helen, the Achaean expedition against Troy was a massive undertaking and they had a lot invested in it. Agamemnon in particular _sacrificed his own daughter Iphiginea_ to gain the favorable winds necessary to get to Troy. And it's clear that Helen was a [MacGuffin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacGuffin) -- secondary to pride, glory, and booty -- thus the squabble between Achilles and Agamemnon over [Briseis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Briseis) prolonged the conflict and almost brought the Greeks to ruin. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When [Patroclus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patroclus) convinced Achilles to let him lead the Myrmidons against the Trojans about to overrun the Greek ships, Achilles advised Patroclus to do only that and come tight back. But of course Patroclus didn't do that -- instead, wearing Achilles's armor, he went on a wild rampage in the Trojan army until Apollo knocked the helmet off, allowing Euphorbus to kill him.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19518" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5828" RevisionGUID="509c2ddf-ee28-43ed-ac32-b14f7fecc58f" CreationDate="2019-08-01T16:01:38.653" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 696 characters in body" Text=" - Aeschylus claims jealousy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; CASSANDRA: This two-footed lioness, who mates with a wolf in the absence of the noble lion, will slay me, miserable as I am. Brewing as it were a drug, she vows that with her wrath she will mix requital for me too, while she whets her sword against her husband, to take murderous vengeance for bringing me here. &lt;BR&gt;&lt;SUB&gt;Source: [*Agamemnon* 1256 ff.][1]&lt;/SUB&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The two-footed lioness is Clytaemestra and the wolf is [Aegisthus][2], Agamemnon's cousin, who was prophesied to be his killer. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; CLYTAEMESTRA: Here lies the man who did me wrong, plaything of each Chryseis at Ilium; and here she lies, his captive, and auguress, and concubine, his oracular faithful whore, yet equally familiar with the seamen's benches. The pair has met no undeserved fate. For he lies thus; while she, who, like a swan, has sung her last lament in death, lies here, his beloved; but to me she has brought for my bed an added relish of delight.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&lt;SUB&gt;Source: [*ibid.* 1438 ff.][3]&lt;/SUB&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Aeschylus, Clytaemestra sees as both an insult and a threat. (In various places in the Troy cycle, Agamemnon talks about putting concubines above his wife.)  So, jealousy in the form of resentment.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although Cassandra laments in the Aeschylus play, she rejoices in this fate as a means of vengeance against the killer of her family:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; CASSANDRA: O mother, crown my head with victor's wreaths; rejoice in my royal match; lead me and if you find me unwilling at all, thrust me there by force; for if Loxias is indeed a prophet, Agamemnon, that famous king of the Achaeans, will find in me a bride more vexatious than Helen. For I will slay him and lay waste his home to avenge my father's and my brothers' death.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[*The Trojan Women* 353 ff.][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are theories that Cassandra is the &quot;net&quot; cast upon Agamemnon in his bath, to tangle him up for the killing stroke.  Euripides implies this is the case both symbolically, and potentially actually (does Cassandra struggle to keep Agamemnon from effectively defending himself?)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Robert Graves proposes a etymology of her name (although the second part of her name is Greek, the first has no direct root) which implies &quot;tangler of men&quot;. Graves uses a contracted form of [κατά][5]+[σωτήρ][6] -- against salvation to pull from the water (i.e. fishing nets which are the death of the fish) + ἀνδρών &quot;man&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a strong theory because nets are a symbol of the goddess in general, related to the Latin &quot;[matrix][7]&quot; (womb), and nets are widely and specifically referenced in conjunction with Agamemnon's death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;There are other, more obscure, versions of the myth in which Cassandra is not murdered. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0004%3Acard%3D1242&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegisthus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0004%3Acard%3D1431&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0124%3Acard%3D341&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkata%2F1&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dswth%2Fr&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/matrix#Latin&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/roots.aspx?type=Indo-European&amp;root=kes-&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranus_(mythology)#Greek_mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/castigate&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.davidgorman.com/4quartets/3-salvages.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19519" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5835" RevisionGUID="46bed7f8-e088-4451-a240-f50894b70e54" CreationDate="2019-08-02T03:37:14.203" UserId="6167" Text="A lot of Greek myths dealing with the concept of fate/destiny (Oedipus most clearly), are used to illustrate how you can't escape your fate, no matter how you try or what measures you take, it will always find you and fighting it will only make it worse. That's the main takeaway from these stories, so I think it's safe to say it reflects at least a fairly prevalent attitude of the time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you consider myths to be more along the line of fables, with a lesson or some sort of moral, you could say Oedipus couldn't refuse to marry because you can't escape fate. Or you could say he couldn't refuse to marry because his story is also one about hubris and pride, and Oedipus was foolish enough to think he could escape his destiny and had successfully cheated fate by leaving his adoptive parents, and tempted the fate he was already doomed to enact by marrying. He literally sealed his own fate.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ultimately, from the Greek mythology I've read it seems that the Greek attitude towards fate was somewhat fatalistic- free will is an illusion, the gods are dicks who toy with us for sport, what you have coming will get you sooner or later, have some more wine." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19520" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5836" RevisionGUID="5c553837-31dd-489d-9add-5232e5b6b595" CreationDate="2019-08-02T08:26:55.530" UserId="6214" Text="It is a depiction of **KaliYuga** **- an era of lies and corruption**, which is presently going on.&#xD;&#xA;It is written in different Vedas that there are four Yugas and their relation to the cow is given as:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Satya Yuga (or Krita Yuga) - it can be depicted as a cow standing on four legs**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Treta Yuga - the cow is standing on three legs**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Dwapara Yuga - the cow is standing on two legs**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Kali Yuga - the cow is standing on one leg.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Here, no of legs is inversely proportional to the corruption level.*&#xD;&#xA;Also after every four Yugas, cosmic destruction occurs generally called as **Pralaya**, and a new cycle of life begins. It shows how destruction is necessary for new beginnings.&#xD;&#xA;Last time this destruction happened, **Manu** was there to assemble a pair of each living being for the new cycle of life. **Manu can be considered as Noah of Hinduism.**&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19521" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5837" RevisionGUID="9807bcc0-6e6c-40e9-bee5-228221ad1b03" CreationDate="2019-08-02T08:52:12.513" UserId="6214" Text="The thing is a little complicated, but it was the only possible way Lord Vishnu had.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jalandhar was a demon king and his wife Vrindha was a great devotee of Lorn Vishnu.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Once upon a time, Jalandhar got a boon from Lord Shiva that he will be invincible and undefeatable till his wife is faithful to him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The demon king after receiving the boon started fighting and defeating all the gods one by one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He even started fighting Lord Shiva, but due to the boon, Lord Shiva wasn't able to kill him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, Lord Vishnu had only one way to help Devas i.e by taking Vrinda's chastity.&#xD;&#xA;Lord Vishnu disguised himself as Jalandhara and took Vrinda's chastity.&#xD;&#xA;By doing this, Jalandhar became powerless and was easily defeated by Lord Shiva.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On knowing that she was cheated by her god, Vrinda cursed Lord Vishnu that he'll become a stone **Shaligram**. &#xD;&#xA;Later Vrinda ended her life by offering herself to fire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lord Vishnu knew that he had committed a great sin, so he accepted his fate.&#xD;&#xA;But to make sure that Vrinda would not suffer, he gave her a boon that after she's dead, a plant will grow from her ashes **Tulsi** and in Hindu rituals, Tulsi will be married to Shaligram, thus confirming that Shaligram and Tulsi are husband and wife.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Also, Lord Vishnu's prasad isn't served without Tulsi leaves in it.**" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19522" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5828" RevisionGUID="cb58f8d5-73a5-4ee9-9fc9-ec2c0e3f96b4" CreationDate="2019-08-02T18:17:00.900" UserId="2892" Comment="added 122 characters in body" Text=" - Aeschylus claims jealousy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; CASSANDRA: This two-footed lioness, who mates with a wolf in the absence of the noble lion, will slay me, miserable as I am. Brewing as it were a drug, she vows that with her wrath she will mix requital for me too, while she whets her sword against her husband, to take murderous vengeance for bringing me here. &lt;BR&gt;&lt;SUB&gt;Source: [*Agamemnon* 1256 ff.][1]&lt;/SUB&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The two-footed lioness is Clytaemestra and the wolf is [Aegisthus][2], Agamemnon's cousin, who was prophesied to be his killer. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; CLYTAEMESTRA: Here lies the man who did me wrong, plaything of each Chryseis at Ilium; and here she lies, his captive, and auguress, and concubine, his oracular faithful whore, yet equally familiar with the seamen's benches. The pair has met no undeserved fate. For he lies thus; while she, who, like a swan, has sung her last lament in death, lies here, his beloved; but to me she has brought for my bed an added relish of delight.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&lt;SUB&gt;Source: [*ibid.* 1438 ff.][3]&lt;/SUB&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Aeschylus, Clytaemestra sees as both an insult and a threat. (In various places in the Troy cycle, Agamemnon talks about putting concubines above his wife.)  So, jealousy in the form of resentment.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although Cassandra laments in the Aeschylus play, she rejoices in this fate as a means of vengeance against the killer of her family:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; CASSANDRA: O mother, crown my head with victor's wreaths; rejoice in my royal match; lead me and if you find me unwilling at all, thrust me there by force; for if Loxias is indeed a prophet, Agamemnon, that famous king of the Achaeans, will find in me a bride more vexatious than Helen. For I will slay him and lay waste his home to avenge my father's and my brothers' death.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[*The Trojan Women* 353 ff.][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are theories that Cassandra is the &quot;net&quot; cast upon Agamemnon in his bath, to tangle him up for the killing stroke.  Euripides implies this is the case both symbolically, and potentially actually (does Cassandra struggle to keep Agamemnon from effectively defending himself?)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Robert Graves proposes a etymology of her name (although the second part of her name is Greek, the first has no direct root) which implies &quot;tangler of men&quot;. Graves uses a contracted form of [κατά][5]+[σωτήρ][6] -- against salvation to pull from the water (i.e. fishing nets which are the death of the fish) + ἀνδρών &quot;man&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a strong theory because nets are a symbol of the goddess in general, related to the Latin &quot;[matrix][7]&quot; (womb), and nets are widely and specifically referenced in conjunction with Agamemnon's death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;In some forms of the myth, it is Aigisthus who does the actual killing, per the prophecy that leads to his conception.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are other, more obscure, versions of the myth in which Cassandra is not murdered. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0004%3Acard%3D1242&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegisthus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0004%3Acard%3D1431&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0124%3Acard%3D341&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkata%2F1&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dswth%2Fr&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/matrix#Latin&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/roots.aspx?type=Indo-European&amp;root=kes-&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranus_(mythology)#Greek_mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/castigate&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.davidgorman.com/4quartets/3-salvages.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19524" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5838" RevisionGUID="63149003-03cd-4968-8280-c340eb9aec6d" CreationDate="2019-08-03T00:41:28.017" UserId="6226" Text="Cronus's children were gods, and therefore immortal.  Until the &quot;[Pan is dead][1]&quot; tale, which was only related in the first century AD, no death of a deity is related in Greek mythology.  Gods and Titans alike may be imprisoned or transformed, but not killed.  This is unlike some other mythologies: whereas Osiris, Tammuz, or Baldur are clearly described as dead, the Greek equivalent, Persephone, is merely kidnapped by Hades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the story of [Chiron][2], the immortal centaur, he is *mortally* wounded and wishes to die, but death does not come to the immortal.  Chiron is described in myth as giving his immortality away to Prometheus, in order to die; even then he does not truly die, but is transformed into a constellation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From this account it may be inferred that the Hellenes took immortality literally: not just unaging, but actual unkillability.  This is supported by the myth of [Tithonus][3], where it is apparent that agelessness and immortality were distinct concepts to the Greek mind: the former not being subject to growing old, the latter not being subject to death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, in answer to the question: Cronus did not kill his divine offspring because he could not---they were immortal, in the sense of unkillable.  The most he could do was imprison them.  Likewise, the gods later imprisoned Typhon and the defeated Titans, but did not kill them instead---not for want of will, but because even they could not kill immortals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_(god)#.22The_Great_God_Pan_is_dead.22&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiron#Death&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithonus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19525" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5839" RevisionGUID="bd85b753-8531-4f9f-9e96-6e1f83689a7c" CreationDate="2019-08-04T16:01:16.840" UserId="5329" Text="In the iliad why is there no continuation of the duel between paris and Menelaus? &#xD;&#xA;I guess I will never understand the mentality of the iliad  but the whole war is started by a Paris vs Menelaus rivalry so to speak and an agreement to settle it as such.  Why is there no call to just continue the duel? &#xD;&#xA;And of course the prophecy which is really starting to take shape at this point." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19526" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5839" RevisionGUID="bd85b753-8531-4f9f-9e96-6e1f83689a7c" CreationDate="2019-08-04T16:01:16.840" UserId="5329" Text="In the iliad why is there no continuation of the duel between paris and Menelaus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19527" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5839" RevisionGUID="bd85b753-8531-4f9f-9e96-6e1f83689a7c" CreationDate="2019-08-04T16:01:16.840" UserId="5329" Text="|greek|trojan-war|iliad|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19528" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5839" RevisionGUID="31d61a40-3c85-4c98-bee4-553903e57a5f" CreationDate="2019-08-04T21:07:49.063" UserId="57" Comment="added 2 characters in body; edited title" Text="In the Iliad why is there no continuation of the duel between Paris and Menelaus? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I guess I will never understand the mentality of the Iliad but the whole war is started by a Paris vs Menelaus rivalry so to speak and an agreement to settle it as such. Why is there no call to just continue the duel? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And of course the prophecy which is really starting to take shape at this point." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19529" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5839" RevisionGUID="31d61a40-3c85-4c98-bee4-553903e57a5f" CreationDate="2019-08-04T21:07:49.063" UserId="57" Comment="added 2 characters in body; edited title" Text="In the iliad why is there no continuation of the duel between Paris and Menelaus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19530" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5839" RevisionGUID="3e82180e-e73e-4c67-ace8-93fd95bef585" CreationDate="2019-08-04T21:16:40.433" UserId="57" Comment="Removed the last sentence, because it doesn't make sense without specifying what prophecy you are talking about." Text="In the Iliad why is there no continuation of the duel between Paris and Menelaus? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I guess I will never understand the mentality of the Iliad but the whole war is started by a Paris vs Menelaus rivalry so to speak and an agreement to settle it as such. Why is there no call to just continue the duel? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19531" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5779" RevisionGUID="d2fe9fed-5bbc-4258-9ad4-f9ad5680f4f2" CreationDate="2019-08-05T01:12:02.910" UserId="6203" Comment="Added link " Text="I think we could say that [***Jebreel***][1] the angel that was his mission is to  tell the Quran to Muhammad.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;It has said that Jebreel is a giant angel that have a voice so loud that&#xD;&#xA;when he showed himself in all its splendor to Muhammad for the first time, he scared him to death.  The prophet directly went running back to Khadija, his wife. He was in shock and he shuddered. From this encounter came the Al-mozamel surat.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;And since then Jebreel didn't show up on his real image and he came to Muhammad as an old normal man. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Edit to add link for more information &#xD;&#xA;https://www.learnreligions.com/angel-jibreel-gabriel-in-islam-2004031&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19532" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5840" RevisionGUID="2a0fadee-15be-4fb0-b43d-c60b087cbbe4" CreationDate="2019-08-05T11:12:52.197" UserId="6226" Text="The Trojan War **is** the continuation of that duel.  The idea of a duel between individuals, with no collective consequences, reappears sometimes in history during times of rugged individualism: in the late chivalric Middle Ages, the Enlightenment, among Vikings, in the Wild West, etc.  But apart from these exceptions, the **[feud][1]**, involving clan honor and clan vengeance, is dominant throughout history.  To quote that article: &quot;the blood feud, coupled with the practice of blood price, functioned as an effective form of social control for limiting and ending conflicts between individuals&quot;. The duel between Paris and Menelaos, being unresolved, devolves onto their clans; and these clans being royal and existing in a web of inter-clan alliances, the feud becomes a full-blown war.&#xD;&#xA;To quote historian Marc Bloch, *The Feudal Society*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The solitary individual, however, could do but little. Moreover, it was most commonly a death that had to be avenged. In this case the family group went into action and the feud came into being ... No moral obligation seemed more sacred than this ... The whole kindred, therefore, placed as a rule under the command of a chieftain, took up arms to punish the murder of one of its members or merely a wrong that he had suffered.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that everyone in the Iliad is perfectly OK with this clan-honor rationale for a major war---it needs no additional justification.  Nobody bothers to persuade allies through economic, political, or religious reasons; nobody much bothers to propagandize Troy as a looming military threat, a competitor, or a rich city to be looted, even though these reasons may have quietly influenced actual decisions.  The official casus belli, accepted matter-of-factly by everyone involved, is a violation of clan honor by another clan, and never mind the fortunes and interests of the individual persons involved.  The duel serves as introduction and pretext to the feud, and then it, Paris, and Menelaos cease to matter, swept up in the currents of war.  That's the mentality of the Iliad for you; and it is hardly unusual, in the course of history.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feud" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19533" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5840" RevisionGUID="1fc4995a-ceae-41f2-93ba-e16f2d2be0d6" CreationDate="2019-08-05T11:18:43.503" UserId="6226" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="The Trojan War **is** the continuation of that duel.  The idea of a duel between individuals, with no collective consequences, reappears sometimes in history during times of rugged individualism: in the late chivalric Middle Ages, the Enlightenment, among Vikings, in the Wild West, etc.  But apart from these exceptions, the **[feud][1]**, involving clan honor and clan vengeance, is dominant throughout history.  To quote that article: &quot;the blood feud, coupled with the practice of blood price, functioned as an effective form of social control for limiting and ending conflicts between individuals&quot;. The duel between Paris and Menelaos, being unresolved, devolves onto their clans; and these clans being royal and existing in a web of inter-clan alliances, the feud becomes a full-blown war.&#xD;&#xA;To quote historian Marc Bloch, *The Feudal Society*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The solitary individual, however, could do but little. Moreover, it was most commonly a death that had to be avenged. In this case the family group went into action and the feud came into being ... No moral obligation seemed more sacred than this ... The whole kindred, therefore, placed as a rule under the command of a chieftain, took up arms to punish the murder of one of its members or merely a wrong that he had suffered.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that everyone in the Iliad is perfectly OK with this clan-honor rationale for a major war---it needs no additional justification.  Nobody bothers to persuade allies through economic, political, or religious reasons; nobody much bothers to propagandize Troy as a looming military threat, a competitor, or a rich city to be looted, even though these reasons may have quietly influenced actual decisions.  The official *casus belli*, accepted matter-of-factly by everyone involved, is a violation of clan honor by another clan, and never mind the fortunes and interests of the individual persons involved.  The duel serves as introduction and pretext to the feud, and then it, Paris, and Menelaos cease to matter, swept up in the currents of war.  That's the mentality of the Iliad for you; and it is hardly unusual, in the course of history.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feud" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19534" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5839" RevisionGUID="9dd90bfb-f538-45d5-a259-60239371ce5b" CreationDate="2019-08-05T13:20:03.323" UserId="57" Comment="edited title" Text="In the Ιliad why is there no continuation of the duel between Paris and Menelaus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19535" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5841" RevisionGUID="102ed2a3-a18e-4775-aa26-3f15e0f1db51" CreationDate="2019-08-05T21:24:09.047" UserId="2892" Text="Because Paris got his butt kicked.  (Paris was only saved by the intervention of the gods.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The Trojans escaped losing the duel on a technicality--it would have been unwise to reprise that particular match up.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;imho, they may even have been hoping for Paris to lose, so they could return Helen and end the war.  But it was pre-ordained that Troy would fall, so no getting to avoid that fate over a single duel. &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19537" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5539" RevisionGUID="37cb3556-6ad2-4c69-a324-95ac22ad65b4" CreationDate="2019-08-06T16:21:49.553" UserId="5726" Comment="changed question" Text="Most religions today condemn the use of tattoos but **Are there any old religions/mythologies where people would get tattood to get closer to or for their god?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The majority of Sunni Muslims believe tattooing is a sin, because it involves changing the natural creation of God, inflicting unnecessary pain in the process.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some Christians take issue with tattooing, upholding the Hebrew prohibition. The Hebrew prohibition is based on interpretingQ&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Leviticus 19:28][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tattoos are generally forbidden in Judaism based on the [Torah (Leviticus 19:28):][2] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;You shall not make gashes in your flesh for the dead, or incise any marks on yourselves: I am the Lord.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know that the Kmer people used [Yantra tattooing][3] and that this practice was taken over by Buddhist monks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Southeast Asia has a tradition of protective tattoos known as sak yant or yantra tattoos that incorporate Buddhist symbols and images, as well as protective mantras or sutra verses in antique Khmer script.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These tattoos are sometimes applied by Buddhist monks or practitioners of indigenous spiritual traditions. Traditionally, tattoos that included images of the Buddha or other religious figures were only applied to certain parts of the body, and sometimes required commitment on the part of the recipient to observe the Five Precepts or other traditional customs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Hinduism [Mehndi][4] tattoos are made of henna and are not permanent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tattoos are allowed culturally and religiously, although contemporary tattoos is uncommon among traditional Hindus. Historical roots date back to the practice of Mehndi using Henna.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ötzi][5] is Europe's oldest known natural human mummy, and has offered an unprecedented view of Chalcolithic (Copper Age) Europeans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ötzi had a total of 61 tattoos (or Soot tattoos), consisting of 19 groups of black lines ranging from 1 to 3 mm in thickness and 7 to 40 mm long. These include groups of parallel lines running along the longitudinal axis of his body and to both sides of the lumbar spine, as well as a cruciform mark behind the right knee and on the right ankle, and parallel lines around the left wrist. The greatest concentration of markings is found on his legs, which together exhibit 12 groups of lines. A microscopic examination of samples collected from these tattoos revealed that they were created from pigment manufactured out of fireplace ash or soot.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Radiological examination of Ötzi's bones showed &quot;age-conditioned or strain-induced degeneration&quot; corresponding to many tattooed areas, including osteochondrosis and slight spondylosis in the lumbar spine and wear-and-tear degeneration in the knee and especially in the ankle joints. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It has been speculated that these tattoos may have been related to pain relief treatments similar to acupressure or acupuncture. If so, this is at least 2,000 years before their previously known earliest use in China (c. 1000 BCE). Recent research into archaeological evidence for ancient tattooing has confirmed that Ötzi is the oldest tattooed human mummy yet&#xD;&#xA;&gt; discovered.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[source 1][6] [source 2][7]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Leviticus-19-28/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9920/jewish/Chapter-19.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yantra_tattooing&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehndi&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96tzi&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1296207415000023?via%3Dihub&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://web.archive.org/web/20151117033016/http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1113319184/scan-finds-new-tattoos-on-5300-year-old-iceman-012215/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19538" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5539" RevisionGUID="37cb3556-6ad2-4c69-a324-95ac22ad65b4" CreationDate="2019-08-06T16:21:49.553" UserId="5726" Comment="changed question" Text="Are there any old religions/mythologies where people would get tattood to get closer to or for their god?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19539" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5842" RevisionGUID="3eb60eb7-04a3-4970-b115-3e774aa541b8" CreationDate="2019-08-07T15:19:18.190" UserId="5541" Text="The Maori and their tattoos, the Ta Moko and Kiri Tuhi&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'll start by saying that the Ta Moko is well represented of course in the Maori  folklore and traditions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the mythology:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The legend of Mataora**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A less historical explanation of the origin of Maori tattoo can be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; found in the local legend which suggests that ta moko, the Maori&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tattoo, came from the underworld, called Uetonga. The legend states&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that there was a young warrior called Mataora, who fell in love with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the princess of the underworld, called Niwareka. Niwareka came above&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ground to marry Mataora.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; However, Mataora mistreated Niwareka, which in turn, made her return&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to the underworld. Mataora, sick with guilt about the way he treated&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his wife pursued her to the underworld, only to be greeted by her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; relatives who laughed at his ragged appearance and smudged face paint.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mataora apologized before Niwareka’s family, and this act won Niwareka&#xD;&#xA;&gt; back. Before returning above ground, it was said that Niwareka’s&#xD;&#xA;&gt; father, the king of the underworld taught Mataora the art of ta moko.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mataora brought back these skills to his people and that was how the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Maori came to have their distinct type of tattoo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Ta Moko seems to have been offered to the Maoris by the king of the [underworld][1] where dwells many gods and powerful entities. So we can consider that this art was given by a godlike entity (Don't know much about the Maori lore yet, but can improve this part later).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Kiri Tuhi contain your personnal &quot;Mythology&quot;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Part of the tattoo represents all your life and the people that took part in it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; How you tell your story in KIRITUHI TATTOO otherwise known as TA MOKO&#xD;&#xA;&gt; maori traditional&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kiri means Skin and Tuhi means Art, we generally tattoo the body and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; arm areas on our customers so it will be defined as Kiri Tuhi rather&#xD;&#xA;&gt; than Ta Moko was reserved for the face only.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; All Maori design is made up of a number of essential design elements.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Main Manawa Lines are the skin looking lines in your maori tattoo,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; MANAWA is the Maori word for Heart and represents Your Life, your Life&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Journey and your time spent on Earth.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Main Korus coming off the Manawa Lines are used represent people and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; people groups . Korus are based off the tiny new growth shoots on the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; New Zealand Fern plant and represent New Life and New Beginnings.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; When you add every koru off your Manawa line you can be adding the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; important people in your life journey , Mothers , Fathers,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Grandparents, Children , siblings , Loved ones friends family and so&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a culture where the ancesters are so important, you could consider this as if each of the Maoris having a Kiri Tuhi were living records of their own family mythology/ancestry.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Maori tattos are a rite**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The culture of the Maori tattoo is very complex. As any religion would have very detailed rites, the Maori tattoos are a rite:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Maori tattoo is very sacred&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Due to the sacred nature of the Maori tattoo, those who were&#xD;&#xA;&gt; undergoing the process, and those involved in the process, could not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eat with their hands or talk to anyone aside from the other people&#xD;&#xA;&gt; being tattooed. Those who were receiving tattoos made it a point to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not cry out in pain, because to do so was a sign of weakness. Being&#xD;&#xA;&gt; able to withstand the pain was very important in terms of pride for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Maori people.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; There were other rules and regulations around being tattooed,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; particularly while undergoing a facial work. Many Maori had to abstain&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from sexual intimacy while undergoing the rite, and had to avoid all&#xD;&#xA;&gt; solid foods. In order to meet these requirements, the person was fed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from a wooden funnel to prevent foodstuffs from contaminating the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; swollen skin. A person would be fed in this manner until the facial&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wounds had fully healed.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Because the face was often bleeding and very swollen, the leaves of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the karaka tree were often used as a balm that was applied after the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; session had finished, to hasten the healing process. The tattooing was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; often accompanied by music, singing and chanting to help soothe the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; pain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Maori tattoos gave a higher social status**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There I just show how positive this was seen to wear tattoos:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Only people of rank or status were allowed to have, and could afford&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to have, tattoos. A person who did not have any high-ranking social&#xD;&#xA;&gt; status, such as a slave, could not have a face tattoo. Those who had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the means to get a tattoo but did not were seen as people of lower&#xD;&#xA;&gt; social status.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Maori facial tattoo was not only seen as a sign of rank though,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; but was also used as a kind of identification card. For men, their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; face tattoo showed their accomplishments, status, position, ancestry&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and marital status. It is considered highly insulting to be unable to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; recognise a person’s power and position by his moko.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is many designs with particular significations and some of them really suit the question here:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The design of **Nga Hau E Wha**, that pay respect to god for what he gave us:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This tattoo design is a representation of the four corners of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; earth and nga hau e wha – the four winds. Tawhirimatea and Tangaroa&#xD;&#xA;&gt; are two Maori gods or Atua have the power to destroy anything in their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; path and they have done so on many occasions. No matter what your&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beliefs in life may be, this still applies to all mankind. It’s all&#xD;&#xA;&gt; about respecting what God has given us, regardless of how big or small&#xD;&#xA;&gt; you are. Aotearoa, is a place for all people of all races and creeds.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tamanuitera represents new growth and warmth and Hei Matua is strength&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and prosperity in whatever you desire to do and koru is a continuation&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of all of these things.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The design of **Pikorua**, that symbolizes life:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The term pikorua is Maori for the growth and joining together of two&#xD;&#xA;&gt; different things e.g. the earth and the sea.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Some iwi (tribes) believed it wasTangaroa and Papatuanuku who were&#xD;&#xA;&gt; together in the beginning. Maori people believe that we came from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mother Earth and one day we go back to her, as the tattoo design&#xD;&#xA;&gt; depicts all rivers eventually lead to the ocean. So it is believed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that in life, we all take different paths and there are many different&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bends that we all end up in the same place. This Maori tattoo is a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; representation of life and journey that it takes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The design of **Manaia**:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The manaia is known as a spiritual guardian, and carrier of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; supernatural powers. Traditionally depicted as a bird like figure with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the head of a bird, body of a man and the tail of a fish it acts as a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; provider and protector over the sky, earth and sea. Likened to a bird&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sitting on your shoulder, looking after ones spirit, and guiding the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; spirit where it is supposed to go when the time comes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My biggest source is from a tattoo shop [website][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://pantheon.org/articles/u/underworld_maori.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.zealandtattoo.co.nz/tattoo-styles/maori-tattoo/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19547" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5846" RevisionGUID="8c2b4223-ea17-4016-86ce-2afa48098e6e" CreationDate="2019-08-09T15:25:45.770" UserId="5604" Text="I would say the source was the Rabbi's fantasies because there is no way a Rabbi from the time of Columbus could have known about this practice, unless it was still being practiced.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Explanation:  Dildos are commonly found in European caves.  In the Early Upper Paleo, arranged marriages were not uncommon.  It was also not uncommon for girls to break their hymens rather than submit.  Only virgins were marriageable, tramps had to  &quot;get thee to a nunnery&quot; because no one wanted them.  At nunneries like Chauvet these tramps raised the motherless and breastfed for mothers who could not.  They were the village that raised the many orphans.  They served as the inspiration for and worshiped Hecate, Artemis, and Aphrodite as the Triple Goddesses of Crones.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The blood they collected was mixed with ochre and a palm print of it was placed at the entrance to the temple caves where they prayed. I only figured this out with the internet and a lot of research, I cannot imagine how he came up with that except that Lucifer / Venus is the kind of mixed period naming convention one would expect in a time and place where liturgies were being mixed.  That would intimate that his knowledge could have been 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th hand, perhaps? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19548" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1278" RevisionGUID="f3d3ae7e-6830-4667-aa54-84e2f83bbfaf" CreationDate="2019-08-09T20:15:50.677" UserId="2892" Comment="added 125 characters in body" Text="[Rabbi Solomon ibn Verga][1] writes the following in his work [Shevet Yehuda][2] (Ch. 7):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A temple of Lucifer/Venus had a statue with a phallic device which was used to deflower virgins brought in for that purpose. The priests would then gather the blood of the girl’s broken maidenhead and knead it into dough used for baking bread. The men who ate those breads would be rendered “holy”. The girls themselves were not allowed to marry afterwards, but would instead prostitute themselves to anyone who came to the temple at high prices because they believed that any man who engaged in intercourse with them would be absolved of all his sins. The monies received from their services would be split between sustaining the girls themselves and paying the administrating priests of the temple.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the source for this legend?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_ibn_Verga&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scepter_of_Judah" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19549" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5847" RevisionGUID="eefc9169-7600-49b6-9a5f-de94b1e842b5" CreationDate="2019-08-09T20:33:38.600" UserId="2892" Text="Definitely seems consistent with pagan fertility rites, religious mysteries, and rituals for expiation of sin.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For instance, the association of virginity and bread comes via the [Kore][1].  Quite literally it is her marriage to Hades that ultimately results in the rebirth of spring, and the growing of grain. ([Zagreus][2]/[Dionysus][3] is the male parallel, associated with blood/wine, and the two together parallel the Jewish blessings over bread and wine, which later becomes a Christian sacrament.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Reminds me of something you might find in Herodotus, though the only passage that comes to mind offhand is a description of a Babylonian temple to a form of Aphrodite:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The foulest Babylonian custom is that which compels every woman of the land to sit in the temple of Aphrodite and have intercourse with some stranger once in her life. Many women who are rich and proud and disdain to mingle with the rest, drive to the temple in covered carriages drawn by teams, and stand there with a great retinue of attendants. But most sit down in the sacred plot of Aphrodite, with crowns of cord on their heads; there is a great multitude of women coming and going; passages marked by line run every way through the crowd, by which the men pass and make their choice. Once a woman has taken her place there, she does not go away to her home before some stranger has cast money into her lap, and had intercourse with her outside the temple; but while he casts the money, he must say, “I invite you in the name of Mylitta” (that is the Assyrian name for Aphrodite). &#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Herodotus, [*Histories* 1.199][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;History was still somewhat unreliable during Verga's time, and there were probably a lot of texts with apocryphal material.  Possible this arose out of an oral history?  Because of the conflation of Venus/Aphrodite, I'm guessing any direct source would likely be medieval. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persephone&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hdt.%201.199" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19550" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5847" RevisionGUID="521ed9e2-071c-4c58-af5e-5020b803c9cc" CreationDate="2019-08-09T20:57:15.293" UserId="2892" Comment="added 728 characters in body" Text="Definitely seems consistent with pagan fertility rites, religious mysteries, and rituals for expiation of sin.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For instance, the association of virginity and bread comes via the [Kore][1].  Quite literally it is her marriage to Hades that ultimately results in the rebirth of spring, and the growing of grain. ([Zagreus][2]/[Dionysus][3] is the male parallel, associated with blood/wine, and the two together parallel the Jewish blessings over bread and wine, which later becomes a Christian sacrament.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Reminds me of something you might find in Herodotus, though the only passage that comes to mind offhand is a description of a Babylonian temple to a form of Aphrodite:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The foulest Babylonian custom is that which compels every woman of the land to sit in the temple of Aphrodite and have intercourse with some stranger once in her life. Many women who are rich and proud and disdain to mingle with the rest, drive to the temple in covered carriages drawn by teams, and stand there with a great retinue of attendants. But most sit down in the sacred plot of Aphrodite, with crowns of cord on their heads; there is a great multitude of women coming and going; passages marked by line run every way through the crowd, by which the men pass and make their choice. Once a woman has taken her place there, she does not go away to her home before some stranger has cast money into her lap, and had intercourse with her outside the temple; but while he casts the money, he must say, “I invite you in the name of Mylitta” (that is the Assyrian name for Aphrodite). &#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Herodotus, [*Histories* 1.199][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I did find this entry on blood in bread in the entry on Thesmophoria in a old dictionary of antiquities:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They believed that the flesh of the swine so offered to Demeter would, if mixed with the seed-corn, magically add to its fertility... the custom of mixing blood with the seed-corn ...  examples of the Pawnees of America, who used to mix the blood of a human victim with the seed-corn...&#xD;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities (1890): [THESMOPHO´RIA][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Note that &quot;[corn][6]&quot; can refer to grain in general.] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Histories were still highly unreliable during Verga's time, and there were probably a lot of texts with apocryphal material.  Possibly this arose out of an oral history?  Because of the conflation of Venus/Aphrodite, I'm guessing any direct source would likely be medieval. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persephone&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hdt.%201.199&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0063:entry=thesmophoria-cn&amp;highlight=aphrodite%2Cbread%2Cblood&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.etymonline.com/word/corn" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19551" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5848" RevisionGUID="36e02759-c64c-437d-9b92-69d8441456d0" CreationDate="2019-08-09T21:00:50.947" UserDisplayName="user6252" Text="I heard from somewhere that gods maintain their power from the people worshiping them. The more people pray, the stronger they get. I also heard that If their home/environment is destroyed (eg. Posideon's waters being polluted) then they will lose some of their power.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What I would like to know is...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Is this true?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. Can they be killed if no one cares about them?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19552" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5848" RevisionGUID="36e02759-c64c-437d-9b92-69d8441456d0" CreationDate="2019-08-09T21:00:50.947" UserDisplayName="user6252" Text="What happens when gods become forgotten?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19553" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5848" RevisionGUID="36e02759-c64c-437d-9b92-69d8441456d0" CreationDate="2019-08-09T21:00:50.947" UserDisplayName="user6252" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19557" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="257" RevisionGUID="fc60d8ad-6505-49c4-bc0d-70d74a9fb4c1" CreationDate="2019-08-09T22:33:14.467" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="19561" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5230" RevisionGUID="99b94c29-afb3-4bfd-8342-8b902ad68b83" CreationDate="2019-08-10T00:50:16.300" UserId="57" Comment="fixed grammar, improved formatting" Text="We all know that on the era of king Parikshita, [Kali][1] came. When the king has gone for hunting he saw a person hitting a one legged cow...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But from where did he come from and who are his parents? When was he born? Has he come from any Deva or Asura/Rakshyasa?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali_(demon)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19562" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5230" RevisionGUID="99b94c29-afb3-4bfd-8342-8b902ad68b83" CreationDate="2019-08-10T00:50:16.300" UserId="57" Comment="fixed grammar, improved formatting" Text="Who is Kali and where did he come from?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19563" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5849" RevisionGUID="5c73ad1e-8a46-463c-a43b-c271f306fadf" CreationDate="2019-08-10T01:19:41.447" UserId="6268" Text="I don't know about how true it is -- really, how can we? But it is an ancient idea, first put forth by Plutarch, who posited that Pan had died because people no longer believed him to be more than a story (In &quot;The Obsolescence of Oracles&quot;). That idea becomes a subplot in The Percy Jackson series." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19564" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5850" RevisionGUID="f6d5d18b-01e9-4f53-8d00-208980e7681e" CreationDate="2019-08-10T01:24:40.967" UserId="6268" Text="That's the legend of the Church Grim. They're from English and Scandinavian lore, and they protect cemeteries and churchyards.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://enacademic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/1233957" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19565" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5851" RevisionGUID="f537e9fb-59f9-4935-a0f5-5382592b1c59" CreationDate="2019-08-10T09:29:10.203" UserDisplayName="user6252" Text="I heard from a story once that when Cronus attacked the gods, most of them were so scared of him that they fled to Egypt and adopted animal characteristics (except for Zeus and Hermes). That's why you see the Egyptian gods with animal heads. What I want to know is...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Is this true?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. How did the Greek gods change after becoming Egyptian gods?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But if this story is not true, then where did the gods go, and what did they do in their hiding?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19566" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5851" RevisionGUID="f537e9fb-59f9-4935-a0f5-5382592b1c59" CreationDate="2019-08-10T09:29:10.203" UserDisplayName="user6252" Text="What's the connection between the Greek and Egyptian gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19567" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5851" RevisionGUID="f537e9fb-59f9-4935-a0f5-5382592b1c59" CreationDate="2019-08-10T09:29:10.203" UserDisplayName="user6252" Text="|greek|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19568" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5852" RevisionGUID="e1e9646c-d305-4562-899a-2e0da0cef46c" CreationDate="2019-08-10T18:33:22.727" UserId="6270" Text="Seems like the theft of the Sampo might be related to the theft of Soma. One is Uralic and the other Indo-European but these two groups of peoples were in close contact with each other from prehistoric times. The theft of cattle by heroes and deities is very common among Indo-Europeans too. Maybe the Sampo (and Soma) was intentionally identified with several differing things from early times in order to hide its true identity from the uninitiated. On the one hand it represents something cosmic like a world-mill or universal pillar on the other it may also represent the personal initiation of our shamanic ancestors journey into the otherworld to acquire knowledge previously hidden from them." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19569" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5853" RevisionGUID="12885fe4-7c0b-473b-9513-33e41ac91a14" CreationDate="2019-08-11T12:30:02.703" UserId="4295" Text="Were witches in northern England more common than in other parts of the U.K. I read about Pendle Hill and it seems so ." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19570" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5853" RevisionGUID="12885fe4-7c0b-473b-9513-33e41ac91a14" CreationDate="2019-08-11T12:30:02.703" UserId="4295" Text="were witches in northern England more common?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19571" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5853" RevisionGUID="12885fe4-7c0b-473b-9513-33e41ac91a14" CreationDate="2019-08-11T12:30:02.703" UserId="4295" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19572" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4591" RevisionGUID="ec470b0d-f947-4521-a1b3-db51adea6a34" CreationDate="2019-08-12T10:02:05.290" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="19573" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5841" RevisionGUID="50dc38de-6537-428a-982b-b4236ec7487f" CreationDate="2019-08-12T20:30:55.073" UserId="2892" Comment="added 467 characters in body" Text="Because Paris got his butt kicked.  (Paris was only saved by the intervention of the gods.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The Trojans escaped losing the duel on a technicality--it would have been unwise to reprise that particular match up.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;imho, they may even have been hoping for Paris to lose, so they could return Helen and end the war.  But it was pre-ordained that Troy would fall, so no getting to avoid that fate over a single duel. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The opening lines of the Iliad explain:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sing, O goddess, the rage of Achilles son of Peleus, that brought countless ills upon the Achaeans. Many a brave soul did it send hurrying down to Hades, and many a hero did it yield a prey to dogs and crows, **for so was the will of Zeus fulfilled.** &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Iliad, line 1 ff.][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0217%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19574" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5854" RevisionGUID="cc1c097c-f34e-4275-aaba-8a59797188ae" CreationDate="2019-08-12T20:37:27.513" UserId="2892" Text="- [Orpheus][1] traveled to the underworld and returned.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Theseus][2] traveled to the underworld and returned, with the help of Heracles (although his companion Pirithous was not so lucky.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Reasons could vary.  With Orpheus, it was love of his departed wife.  With Theseus, it was for fame, and specifically on behalf of his friend.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orpheus#Death_of_Eurydice&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theseus#The_abduction_of_Persephone_and_encounter_with_Hades" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19575" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5800" RevisionGUID="a0b060a4-4007-473c-a402-2f1f367989d7" CreationDate="2019-08-12T23:02:20.303" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="19576" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5855" RevisionGUID="742e6520-0c20-444d-adbe-691b36cef589" CreationDate="2019-08-13T15:53:25.907" UserDisplayName="user6252" Text="So I've noticed that there is this on going book series done by Rick Riordan. Well, he actually has many. Percy Jackson, Apollo, and the Lost Hero. And it got me thinking a bit. How much of mentioned monsters, gods, etc. is actually true, or it it just to enhance his story?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19577" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5855" RevisionGUID="742e6520-0c20-444d-adbe-691b36cef589" CreationDate="2019-08-13T15:53:25.907" UserDisplayName="user6252" Text="How much of real Greek Mythology does the writer Rick Riordan use?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19578" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5855" RevisionGUID="742e6520-0c20-444d-adbe-691b36cef589" CreationDate="2019-08-13T15:53:25.907" UserDisplayName="user6252" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19579" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5856" RevisionGUID="b008d408-91c5-46cc-9412-a5a4dcb4ac18" CreationDate="2019-08-13T15:53:25.907" UserDisplayName="user6252" Text="So after some researching about the writer, I've got this answer. It turns out that all of the mentioned gods, titans, monsters, and historic heroes are real. That's right. Any name (except from the modern demigods and Camp Halfblood) is taken from real Greek Mythology. But there's a catch. Rick Riordan may have revived or slightly altered some of the monsters or titans. For example, Typhoon was trapped under a mountain in Greek Mythology, but he comes back in Percy Jackson. So does Cronus and many other monsters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the answer is yes, everything you hear is true, but the things that they do, and the timelines that they exist in aren't. I suggest reading Rick Riordan's guide to Greek gods and heroes, as they provide tons of information on true mythological events." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19580" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5850" RevisionGUID="9ec5c03f-7913-4add-8430-3ac9635e397e" CreationDate="2019-08-13T23:30:19.823" UserId="6268" Comment="Added a longer description taken from the source website." Text="That's the legend of the Church Grim. They're from English and Scandinavian lore, and they protect cemeteries and churchyards.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://enacademic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/1233957&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the website: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Church Grim, Kirk Grim, Kyrkogrim (Swedish) or Kirkonväki (Finnish) is a figure from English and Scandinavian folklore, said to be an attendant spirit, overseeing the welfare of its particular church. English Church Grims are said to enjoy loudly ringing the bells. They may appear as black dogs or as small, misshapen, dark-skinned people.[1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Swedish Kyrkogrim are said to be the spirits of animals sacrificed by early Christians at the building of a new church.[2] In parts of Europe, including Britain and Scandinavia, a completely black dog would be buried alive on the north side of the grounds of a newly built church, creating a guardian spirit, the church grim, in order to protect the church from the devil.[1]" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19581" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5857" RevisionGUID="b2bde9dd-e179-4736-bf38-b64ce4e84c49" CreationDate="2019-08-14T13:38:19.680" UserId="57" Text="Isidoros Zourgos in his novel &quot;Στην σκιά της πεταλούδας&quot; mentions that if you kill a wolf, the animal's spirit will come back and kill you after forty days. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The origin of the belief is assumed to be Adrianoupoli (Edirne), in Turkey (the &quot;old country&quot; of the novel). It may be a Greek belief, as the characters of the novel are Greek and Adrianoupoli at the time of novel (1910s, early 1920s) had a significant Greek population.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The belief isn't mentioned in Wikipedia's [Wolves in folklore, religion and mythology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolves_in_folklore,_religion_and_mythology#Indo-European) and I didn't find anything about it around the net. &#xD;&#xA;I wonder if this is an actual folklore belief, or something the author made up. &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19582" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5857" RevisionGUID="b2bde9dd-e179-4736-bf38-b64ce4e84c49" CreationDate="2019-08-14T13:38:19.680" UserId="57" Text="Is there a folklore belief that the spirit of a wolf comes back to avenge its death?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19583" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5857" RevisionGUID="b2bde9dd-e179-4736-bf38-b64ce4e84c49" CreationDate="2019-08-14T13:38:19.680" UserId="57" Text="|greek|myth-identification|folklore|animals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19584" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5856" RevisionGUID="e752bd01-adb2-4c2d-b4d7-a620fc6b56fe" CreationDate="2019-08-14T17:50:34.600" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="So after some researching about the writer, I've got this answer. It turns out that all of the mentioned gods, titans, monsters, and historic heroes are real. That's right. Any name (except from the modern demigods and Camp Halfblood) is taken from real Greek Mythology. But there's a catch. Rick Riordan may have revived or slightly altered some of the monsters or titans. For example, Typhon was trapped under a mountain in Greek Mythology, but he comes back in Percy Jackson. So does Cronus and many other monsters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the answer is yes, everything you hear is true, but the things that they do, and the timelines that they exist in aren't. I suggest reading Rick Riordan's guide to Greek gods and heroes, as they provide tons of information on true mythological events." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19585" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5856" RevisionGUID="fcb10c48-ed3e-4d68-a116-b7183142cafa" CreationDate="2019-08-14T17:59:31.887" UserId="2892" Comment="added 53 characters in body" Text="So after some researching about the writer, I've got this answer. It turns out that all of the mentioned gods, titans, monsters, and historic heroes are real. That's right. Any name (except from the modern demigods and Camp Halfblood) is taken from real Greek Mythology. But there's a catch. Rick Riordan may have revived or slightly altered some of the monsters or titans. For example, Typhon was trapped under a mountain in Greek Mythology, but he comes back in Percy Jackson. So does Cronus and many other monsters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the answer is yes, all of the characters come from the Greek canon, but the things that they do, and the timelines that they exist in aren't part of the historical canon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I suggest reading Rick Riordan's guide to Greek gods and heroes, as they provide tons of information on true mythological events." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19586" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5858" RevisionGUID="25f4ba50-526b-4759-8713-4b95bb30ddd8" CreationDate="2019-08-15T06:46:29.213" UserId="6278" Text="I have a late answer. Some in the My Litle Pony fandom have tentatively referred to bat ponies as thestral and that's lead me down this rabbit hole... I study Old English as well for a fandom project.&#xD;&#xA;thester is Middle English for &quot;dark, gloomy&quot; from Old English thīestre. The -al ending is means &quot;Of or pertaining to&quot; from Latin.&#xD;&#xA;THEREFORE thester+al = thestral = A/one creature &quot;Of or pertaining to the dark&quot;&#xD;&#xA;To my knowledge there's no mythological creature called this but many creatures are named this way in other/older languages. Etymology is a wonderful thing!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19587" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5849" RevisionGUID="abcd1399-149d-4002-b49f-aefac9e138da" CreationDate="2019-08-15T12:42:06.767" UserId="1317" Comment="Edited in quotation from comments " Text="I don't know about how true it is -- really, how can we? But it is an ancient idea, first put forth by Plutarch, who posited that Pan had died because people no longer believed him to be more than a story (In &quot;The Obsolescence of Oracles&quot;):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The power of the spirit does not affect all persons nor the same persons always in the same way, but it only supplies an enkindling and an inception, as has been said for them that are in a proper state to be affected and to undergo the change. The power comes from the gods and demigods, but, for all that, it is not unfailing nor imperishable nor ageless, lasting into that infinite time by which all things between earth and moon become wearied out, according to our reasoning. And there are some who assert that the things above the moon also do not abide, but give out as they confront the everlasting and infinite, and undergo continual transmutations and rebirths.&quot;(section 51) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(That idea becomes a subplot in The Percy Jackson series)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19588" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5849" RevisionGUID="abcd1399-149d-4002-b49f-aefac9e138da" CreationDate="2019-08-15T12:42:06.767" Comment="Proposed by 1317 approved by 5726, 108 edit id of 1753" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19589" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5850" RevisionGUID="6089a9a5-54b4-4e85-91f2-e142b7930d9d" CreationDate="2019-08-15T12:42:29.097" UserId="1317" Comment="Blockquote" Text="That's the legend of the Church Grim. They're from English and Scandinavian lore, and they protect cemeteries and churchyards.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://enacademic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/1233957&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the website: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Church Grim, Kirk Grim, Kyrkogrim (Swedish) or Kirkonväki (Finnish) is a figure from English and Scandinavian folklore, said to be an attendant spirit, overseeing the welfare of its particular church. English Church Grims are said to enjoy loudly ringing the bells. They may appear as black dogs or as small, misshapen, dark-skinned people.[1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Swedish Kyrkogrim are said to be the spirits of animals sacrificed by early Christians at the building of a new church.[2] In parts of Europe, including Britain and Scandinavia, a completely black dog would be buried alive on the north side of the grounds of a newly built church, creating a guardian spirit, the church grim, in order to protect the church from the devil.[1] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Six chars" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19590" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5850" RevisionGUID="6089a9a5-54b4-4e85-91f2-e142b7930d9d" CreationDate="2019-08-15T12:42:29.097" Comment="Proposed by 1317 approved by 5726, -1 edit id of 1752" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19591" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5850" RevisionGUID="626f294b-0437-44ef-ad65-f96adac8753e" CreationDate="2019-08-15T12:42:29.097" UserId="108" Comment="Blockquote" Text="That's the legend of the Church Grim. They're from English and Scandinavian lore, and they protect cemeteries and churchyards.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://enacademic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/1233957&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the website: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Church Grim, Kirk Grim, Kyrkogrim (Swedish) or Kirkonväki (Finnish) is a figure from English and Scandinavian folklore, said to be an attendant spirit, overseeing the welfare of its particular church. English Church Grims are said to enjoy loudly ringing the bells. They may appear as black dogs or as small, misshapen, dark-skinned people.[1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Swedish Kyrkogrim are said to be the spirits of animals sacrificed by early Christians at the building of a new church.[2] In parts of Europe, including Britain and Scandinavia, a completely black dog would be buried alive on the north side of the grounds of a newly built church, creating a guardian spirit, the church grim, in order to protect the church from the devil.[1] " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19592" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5859" RevisionGUID="8341f879-823f-47f3-b540-add08cd70324" CreationDate="2019-08-15T18:11:31.253" UserId="4022" Text="&gt; Is this true?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is always a hard question to answer in mythology. There's usually not a consistent canon—instead, there are dozens upon dozens of stories, some of which contradict each other in fundamental ways.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, look at the myth of Persephone. There's the famous story where Hades abducts her to the Underworld and she's trapped there because she ate a pomegranate. But there are also sources that say she went to the Underworld of her own free will, and made up the pomegranate story to appease her mother. Still others say she was the ruler of the underworld in her own right (influenced, distantly, by the Sumerian goddess Ereshkigal). And still *others* say that she was a wine-goddess married to Dionysus (based on the native Roman goddess Libera).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, while we can't say if it's *true*, we can say that it's *attested*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the _Histories_ II.42, Herodotus equates various Egyptian and Greek deities, a practice called _interpretatio Graeca_. For example, he says that &quot;Osiris&quot; is the Egyptian name for Dionysus, and &quot;Amoun&quot; the Egyptian name for Zeus. He also investigates various equivalents for Heracles, including the Phoenician deity Melqart—and concludes that Heracles was actually an *Egyptian* figure whose fame extended to Greece, rather than the other way around.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later, Nicander of Colophon expanded on this equivalence, in his _Heteroeumena_. The _Heteroeumena_ doesn't survive, but Antoninus Liberalis summarizes parts of it in his _Metamorphoses_, and part 28 attempts to explain why the Egyptians portrayed their deities with animal features. According to him, during Typhon's rebellion, the Olympians turned into animals and hid in Egypt until they could regroup.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But historically, all these equivalences are **later inventions**. Some myths and deities were certainly borrowed back and forth during times of contact, which is why the cult of Isis was so popular in the Roman Empire. But fundamentally, Zeus and his ilk seem to derive from Indo-European mythology, and Amun and his ilk from different sources. These equivalences were developed later, in order to fit different mythologies into the same worldview.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;P.S.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But if this story is not true, then where did the gods go, and what did they do in their hiding?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps an unsatisfying answer, but most sources don't really specify. Typhon rose up, Zeus struck him down and took over, there's not much detail in the middle there. The important part seems to have been Zeus taking power, and what he was doing before that isn't wasn't considered as relevant." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19593" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5859" RevisionGUID="8fbe12d9-bbb5-400d-86cb-1203389a501d" CreationDate="2019-08-15T18:16:31.660" UserId="4022" Comment="added 146 characters in body" Text="&gt; Is this true?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is always a hard question to answer in mythology. There's usually not a consistent canon—instead, there are dozens upon dozens of stories, some of which contradict each other in fundamental ways.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, look at the myth of Persephone. There's the famous story where Hades abducts her to the Underworld and she's trapped there because she ate a pomegranate. But there are also sources that say she went to the Underworld of her own free will, and made up the pomegranate story to appease her mother. Still others say she was the ruler of the underworld in her own right (influenced, distantly, by the Sumerian goddess Ereshkigal). And still *others* say that she was a wine-goddess married to Dionysus (based on the native Roman goddess Libera).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, while we can't say if it's *true*, we can say that it's *attested*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the _Histories_ II.42, Herodotus equates various Egyptian and Greek deities, a practice called _interpretatio Graeca_. For example, he says that &quot;Osiris&quot; is the Egyptian name for Dionysus, and &quot;Amoun&quot; the Egyptian name for Zeus. He also investigates various equivalents for Heracles, including the Phoenician deity Melqart—and concludes that Heracles was actually an *Egyptian* figure whose fame extended to Greece, rather than the other way around.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later, Nicander of Colophon expanded on this equivalence, in his _Heteroeumena_. The _Heteroeumena_ doesn't survive, but Antoninus Liberalis summarizes parts of it in his _Metamorphoses_, and part 28 attempts to explain why the Egyptians portrayed their deities with animal features. According to him, during Typhon's rebellion, the Olympians turned into animals and hid in Egypt until they could regroup. (Ovid mentions the same story in his _Metamorphoses_, also drawing from Nicander, which is good evidence that the _Heteroeumena_ did cover this.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But historically, all these equivalences are **later inventions**. Some myths and deities were certainly borrowed back and forth during times of contact, which is why the cult of Isis was so popular in the Roman Empire. But fundamentally, Zeus and his ilk seem to derive from Indo-European mythology, and Amun and his ilk from different sources. These equivalences were developed later, in order to fit different mythologies into the same worldview.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;P.S.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But if this story is not true, then where did the gods go, and what did they do in their hiding?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps an unsatisfying answer, but most sources don't really specify. Typhon rose up, Zeus struck him down and took over, there's not much detail in the middle there. The important part seems to have been Zeus taking power, and what he was doing before that isn't wasn't considered as relevant." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19594" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5860" RevisionGUID="3ffff462-0556-47f6-a509-d807805e0fdc" CreationDate="2019-08-16T14:30:28.733" UserId="2774" Text="You have a couple of way to see your question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Historically&#xD;&#xA;============&#xD;&#xA;Egypt is a civilization running from roughly 3000 BC up to 30 BC. Most of the mythology is dating back from the Old Kingdom (Especially the pyramid texts), and most of the literature was developed during the middle kingdom (What is known as classic Egyptian). That means that Egyptian mythology is in place in 1600 BC.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Greece is much more recent, as oldest tragedies are coming back from 800 BC (Homer and Hesiod). So there are no Greeks before 1000 BC.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;That taken into account. the influence of the Greek mythology over the Egyptian mythology is inextistant. &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In appearance.&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;In 500 BC the first great Empire, the Aechemenid (The Persian from the movie 300) invaded Egypt. Egypt more or then managed to keep a kind of independence up to 300 when Alexander the Great conquered the Aechemenid empire and thus gained dominion over Egypt (he founded Alexandria). At his death, one of his general, Ptolemy, became Pharaoh. And thus the last dynasty of Egypt is Greek (known as either Lagid of Ptolemy; yes Cleopatra VII is both a Greek and a Ptolemy).&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;A point on Ptolemies: They did not speak Egyptian, at the exception of Ptolemy III and Cleopatra VII. But they tried to keep Egyptians with their religion, while incorporating Greek myth inside the Egyptian religion; A god like Serapis is a clear example, he is a kind of concentration of Osiris and Hades (his name in Egyptian is wsjr-hp, that is pronounced ousir-hep, knowing that 'o' in Greek is an article [like a or the], so the Greek reading would be &quot;o serap&quot;, and so &quot;o serapis&quot; at the nominative case [the exact reading of wsjr and hp are 'unknwon', but Serapis give us clear clues]).&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Let's summarize :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - During the Egyptian dominion, there are no Greek whatsoever. So there era no connections between Greeks gods and Egyptians gods, simply because there are not even any Greeks to be seen.&#xD;&#xA; - During the late Egyptian time, Egyptian mythology will bend to accept Greek mythology, gods as Serapis or Hermanubis are witnesses of that due to the fact the local rulers are Greeks&#xD;&#xA; - I omit to talk here about the Persian invasion, roughly because Persians, for what we know, tried to accommodate with local gods (one of the few writing made by the founder Cyrus the Great is an invocation of the Babylonian god Marduk...). So Persians on their big conquests did not bring their own god (Ahura Mazda)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Greek god fleeing &#xD;&#xA;=================&#xD;&#xA;The episode you are referring to is the fight between Typhon and Zeus. In the first instance we have (Hesiod) gods are not cowarding to Egypt, but later traditions have that:&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;**Pseudo-Appolorus (dating 100 AD):** *When the gods saw him rushing toward the sky, they headed for Egypt to escape him, and as he pursued them they changed themselves into animal shapes.*&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Pseudo-hyginius (100 AC at best):** *Egyptian priests and some poets say that once when many gods had assembled in Egypt, suddenly Typhon, an exceedingly fierce monster and deadly enemy of the gods, came to that place. Terrified by him, they changed their shapes into other forms: Mercurius [Hermes] became an ibis [Toth], Apollo [Apollon], the bird that is called Thracian, Diana [Artemis], a cat [Bastet]. For this reason they say the Egyptians do not permit these creatures to be injured, because they are called representations of gods. At this same time, they say, Pan cast himself into the river, making the lower part of his body a fish [Onuris], and the rest a goat [Osiris], and thus escaped from Typhon*&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Antoninus Liberalis (100 AD, this is where you have all the details):** *Typhon felt an urge to usurp the rule of Zeus and not one of the gods could withstand him as he attacked. In panic they fled to Egypt, all except Athena and Zeus, who alone were left. Typhon hunted after them, on their track. When they fled they had changed themselves in anticipation into animal forms.&#xD;&#xA;Apollon became a hawk [Horus], Hermes an ibis [Thoth], Ares became a fish, the lepidotus [Onuris], Artemis a cat [Bastet], Dionysos took the shape of a goat [Osiris], Herakles a fawn, Hephaistos an ox [Ptah], and Leto a shrew mouse [Wadjet]. The rest of the gods each took on what transformations they could.* &#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;This is important because as you can see this is from a late tradition, in fact post-Ptolemaic (which ended in 30 BC). In fact, those are ROMAN traditions, considering they are written in Greek but during Roman time (as for example Plutarque wrote in Greek bu is definitely a Roman, in his parallel lives Roman always are outperforming their Greek equivalents).&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;And that answer your question:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Does the Greek gods fled in Egypt and transformed there into animal: yes, according to the **Greek myth** of **Roman time**, during which Egypt is a Roman province. notice who became what is changing from author to author.&#xD;&#xA; 2. Are they the origin of the Egyptian gods: Egyptians gods by themselves are way older than any Greek gods, so no. But according to those authors, this could be more or less true, and the origin of Egyptians custom could come from those event&#xD;&#xA; 3. How did the Greek gods change after becoming Egyptian gods: Our authors are silent on that&#xD;&#xA; 4. Is there any relationship between Greek gods and Egyptian gods? Yes during Ptolemaic time this is clearly the case&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19595" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5707" RevisionGUID="111deb8f-c184-4430-8e3d-fdb272d7ed1e" CreationDate="2019-08-17T15:27:25.420" UserId="5726" Comment="expanded answer" Text="Ares the god of war&#xD;&#xA;-------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although in literature Ares represents the violent and physical untamed aspect of war, the last thing you would think is that the god of war is a coward.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Homer's version of the character he was considered a coward ([losing to Athena mostly, this is because she picks her sides carefully and thinks her every move through thoroughly.][1]) , shown in the Iliad screaming and retreating to Mount Olympus whenever he was wounded.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then looking at him darkly Zeus who gathers the clouds spoke to him:&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Do not sit beside me and whine, you double-faced liar.&#xD;&#xA;To me you are the most hateful of all gods who hold Olympus.&#xD;&#xA;Forever quarrelling is dear to your heart, wars and battles.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt; [Iliad, Book 5, lines 798–891, 895–898][2] &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends/battle-war-gods-ares-versus-athena-understanding-ancient-greek-war-deities-007686&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.theoi.com/Text/HomerIliad5.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19596" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5861" RevisionGUID="8b9e3560-75ab-48ef-a3d4-7ece38baa1da" CreationDate="2019-08-17T15:45:56.690" UserId="5726" Text="Since Poseidon is well known as the god of the God of the sea, storms, earthquakes and *horses*? **What is the connection between Poseidon and horses?**&#xD;&#xA;As a god of the sea the storms and earthquakes part makes sense but where does the part of the horse come in?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sailors prayed to Poseidon for a safe voyage, sometimes drowning horses as a sacrifice; in this way, according to a fragmentary papyrus, Alexander the Great paused at the Syrian seashore before the climactic battle of Issus, and resorted to prayers, &quot;invoking Poseidon the sea-god, for whom he ordered a four-horse chariot to be cast into the waves.&quot;  &lt;sub&gt; Papyrus Oxyrrhincus FGH 148, 44, col. 2; quoted by Robin Lane Fox, Alexander the Great (1973) 1986:168 and note. Alexander also invoked other sea deities: Thetis, mother of his hero Achilles, Nereus and the Nereids&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like Poseidon, Neptune was worshipped by the Romans also as a god of horses, under the name Neptunus Equester, a patron of horse-racing." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19597" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5861" RevisionGUID="8b9e3560-75ab-48ef-a3d4-7ece38baa1da" CreationDate="2019-08-17T15:45:56.690" UserId="5726" Text="What is the connection between Poseidon and horses?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19598" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5861" RevisionGUID="8b9e3560-75ab-48ef-a3d4-7ece38baa1da" CreationDate="2019-08-17T15:45:56.690" UserId="5726" Text="|greek|roman|origins|poseidon|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19599" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5642" RevisionGUID="0c197fa0-5e5a-4fb4-9a6f-5f4a317fecad" CreationDate="2019-08-17T16:12:37.300" UserId="5726" Comment="improved answer, added links and improved readability" Text="To make sure your vessel is seaworthy.&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Seamen/sailors in the 17th century would sometimes knock with their hands or tools on the wooden hull of their ship to listen for [woodworm][1] or rot, hearing a solid sound coming from wood in the hull would mean it was good to go (or ship shape). In fact this was a practice during [the age of sail][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For continuing your good luck streak&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When sailors were conversing with one another and the subject of good luck came up the sailors would sometimes tell one another that they needed to touch or knock wood (implying the ship ofcourse).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This good luck could also be a reference to the fact they made the journey this far on good terms, and where hoping that their ship would finish its voyage fast and that their ship's hull would stay whole and strong. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In my own culture&#xD;&#xA;-----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In my country (the Netherlands) this superstition is also deeply embedded into our culture (among a lot of other maritime superstitions) and we call it &quot;afkloppen&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Afkloppen* of *aftikken* is een vorm van volksgeloof en een ritueel waarbij oorspronkelijk op **ongeverfd hout** wordt getikt, om daardoor mogelijk ongeluk af te wenden, wanneer men zich verheugt over genoten geluk of wanneer iets geprezen wordt. &lt;sub&gt;[dutch wiki on &quot;afkloppen&quot;][3]'Afkloppen, aftikken', in: Folkloristisch Woordenboek van Nederland en Vlaams België/ K. ter Laan, 1949, pp. 7.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Translated this loosely means :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Afkloppen* or *aftikken* is a form of folklore and a ritual which originally meant that you needed to knock or tap on a piece of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **unpainted wood** to ward off bad luck, especially when you already had a string of good luck and would like that good luck to continue. &lt;sub&gt;[dutch wiki on &quot;afkloppen&quot;][3]'Afkloppen, aftikken', in: Folkloristisch Woordenboek van Nederland en Vlaams België/ K. ter Laan, 1949, pp. 7.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tempting fate&#xD;&#xA;--------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At first i thought this was mostly because my country has a deep naval tradition (along with a reasonable amount of European countries) spanning back some centuries.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Looking further I found that most countries in Europe (and after looking at [Wikipedia][4] countries all over the world) have some sort of superstition/ritual implying that the knocking on or touching of wood seems to be a way of bringing good luck or to not &quot;tempt fate&quot;([jinx][5]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Wikipedia][6] says that its rooted in German folklore but they are missing the citations needed to further investigate this claim. There is probably someone on this site that might be able to answer this. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If anyone has some sources I would be happy to investigate this further.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodworm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Sail&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afkloppen&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knocking_on_wood&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinx&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knocking_on_wood#Origin" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19600" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5862" RevisionGUID="72413605-73a3-431a-b648-da74412f0d14" CreationDate="2019-08-17T18:05:58.747" UserId="6167" Text="I can't find a classical source for this, but from what I understand it's related to the myth of the founding of Athens and the competition Poseidon had with Athena over who would be the city's patron. They each created various things and the citizens of Athens ended up choosing Athena for her olive tree. In some versions Poseidon gave them a spring of water that turned out to be salty and not good to drink, while in others he gave them the horse, in both cases losing to Athena.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's also the one where he was in love with Demeter and decided to make the most beautiful animals in the world to woo her, and worked long and hard on it, but by the time he was done he was no longer in love with her. The result was the horse. (I read about this [one here][1])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia also has a [section][2] about Poseidon's theoretical origins in horse-worship, and discusses (very briefly) the other connections.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://classroom.synonym.com/did-poseidon-create-horse-greek-mythology-21051.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poseidon#Origins" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19604" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="3028" RevisionGUID="d6e37b27-9359-4d03-8425-705d679db120" CreationDate="2019-08-18T07:29:39.323" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="19605" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5864" RevisionGUID="e1998eca-73bf-4ac7-8221-9e97b9af0a88" CreationDate="2019-08-19T15:12:22.337" UserId="5431" Text="In &quot;Yeats Poems&quot; by W. B. Yeats, [pg. 522][1], *(in notes to his poem 'The Poet pleads with the Elemental Powers')* it is written, &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Yeats commented that the Great Bear and the constellation of the Dragon 'in certain old mythologies' encircle the Tree of Life.&#xA;&#xA;[Ursa Major, the Great Bear][2] and [Draco][3] are [circumpolar][4] northern and far northern sky constellations that go around [Polaris][5], the North Pole Star. &#xA;&#xA;Greek mythology has the dragon [Ladon][6] &quot;twined and twisted around the tree in the Garden of the Hesperides&quot;, guarding the golden apples. A dragon also guards the tree which holds the [Golden Fleece][7].&#xA;&#xA;**But what mythology links the Great Bear with the Tree?**&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com.hk/books?id=3t6xCwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA522&amp;lpg=PA522&amp;dq=yeats%20dragon%20guardian&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=O3aeFqOsB3&amp;sig=ACfU3U2-lcoXc8PXz0YHgYXHGO1eVxexKw&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwjm79bK-o7kAhXMMd4KHdsYAwIQ6AEwDHoECAUQAQ#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursa_Major&#xA;  [3]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draco_(constellation)&#xA;  [4]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumpolar_star&#xA;  [5]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris&#xA;  [6]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladon_(mythology)&#xA;  [7]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Fleece" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19606" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5864" RevisionGUID="e1998eca-73bf-4ac7-8221-9e97b9af0a88" CreationDate="2019-08-19T15:12:22.337" UserId="5431" Text="The Great Bear and Dragon encircling the Tree of Life" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19607" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5864" RevisionGUID="e1998eca-73bf-4ac7-8221-9e97b9af0a88" CreationDate="2019-08-19T15:12:22.337" UserId="5431" Text="|myth-identification|comparative|astrology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19608" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5864" RevisionGUID="3492f098-4ff1-41ba-a897-a79f6b54eb46" CreationDate="2019-08-19T15:33:17.217" UserId="5726" Comment="changed Wikipedia mobile links to web links " Text="In &quot;Yeats Poems&quot; by W. B. Yeats, [pg. 522][1], *(in notes to his poem 'The Poet pleads with the Elemental Powers')* it is written, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Yeats commented that the Great Bear and the constellation of the Dragon 'in certain old mythologies' encircle the Tree of Life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ursa Major, the Great Bear][2] and [Draco][3] are [circumpolar][4] northern and far northern sky constellations that go around [Polaris][5], the North Pole Star. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Greek mythology has the dragon [Ladon][6] &quot;twined and twisted around the tree in the Garden of the Hesperides&quot;, guarding the golden apples. A dragon also guards the tree which holds the [Golden Fleece][7].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**But what mythology links the Great Bear with the Tree?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com.hk/books?id=3t6xCwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA522&amp;lpg=PA522&amp;dq=yeats%20dragon%20guardian&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=O3aeFqOsB3&amp;sig=ACfU3U2-lcoXc8PXz0YHgYXHGO1eVxexKw&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwjm79bK-o7kAhXMMd4KHdsYAwIQ6AEwDHoECAUQAQ#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursa_Major&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draco_(constellation)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumpolar_star&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladon_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Fleece" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19609" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5841" RevisionGUID="dc50f604-b39e-43da-8b38-0337b0e9738f" CreationDate="2019-08-19T18:37:09.987" UserId="2892" Comment="added 1168 characters in body" Text="Because Paris got his butt kicked.  (Paris was only saved by the intervention of the gods.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The Trojans escaped losing the duel on a technicality--it would have been unwise to reprise that particular match up.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;imho, they may even have been hoping for Paris to lose, so they could return Helen and end the war.  But it was pre-ordained that Troy would fall, so no getting to avoid that fate over a single duel. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The opening lines of the Iliad explain:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sing, O goddess, the rage of Achilles son of Peleus, that brought countless ills upon the Achaeans. Many a brave soul did it send hurrying down to Hades, and many a hero did it yield a prey to dogs and crows, **for so was the will of Zeus fulfilled.** &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Iliad, line 1 ff.][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Paris is not honorable; Hector is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The other is that these are honor/shame based warrior cultures.  If Paris was honorable, he'd likely want to reprise the duel with Menelaus.  But Paris isn't honorable--he was received in Argos by Menelaus as a guest-friend, enjoying his hospitality until Menelaus goes away, at which point Paris promptly steals his wife.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(This might be due to Paris' upbringing by a shepherd, after the failed infanticide due to exposure.  Paris is sort of wild, raised on Mt. Ida, away from the royal court of Troy.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One might then ask &quot;Why don't the Trojans betray Paris give Helen back?&quot; The answer is surely complicated, but involves family loyalty--Hector may not respect Paris but he won't betray his brother.  Helen may also have asked Priam for protection.  Lastly, to give back Helen would be to betray Aphrodite, who promised Paris the most beautiful woman in the world. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In some sense, the Fall of Troy is analogous to the fall of Hector.  Troy was put in a situation with no way out, but honored it's commitments.  Likewise, Hector may have fallen, but his honor was intact.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0217%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19610" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5864" RevisionGUID="fefe2e0f-22c6-490f-ba03-58038aeddc84" CreationDate="2019-08-20T04:44:34.387" UserId="5431" Comment="added 248 characters in body" Text="In &quot;Yeats Poems&quot; by W. B. Yeats, [pg. 522][1], *(in notes to his poem 'The Poet pleads with the Elemental Powers')* it is written, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Yeats commented that the Great Bear and the constellation of the Dragon 'in certain old mythologies' encircle the Tree of Life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ursa Major, the Great Bear][2] and [Draco][3] are [circumpolar][4] northern and far northern sky constellations that go around [Polaris][5], the North Pole Star. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Greek mythology has the dragon [Ladon][6] &quot;twined and twisted around the tree in the Garden of the Hesperides&quot;, guarding the golden apples. A dragon also guards the tree which holds the [Golden Fleece][7].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**But what mythology links the Great Bear with the Tree?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xA;*(And, quite frankly, what mythology links Polaris or [Ursa Minor][8] to the Tree of Life? Was this indeed 'in certain old mythologies' as Yeats wrote, or perhaps in more recent Kabbalah?)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com.hk/books?id=3t6xCwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA522&amp;lpg=PA522&amp;dq=yeats%20dragon%20guardian&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=O3aeFqOsB3&amp;sig=ACfU3U2-lcoXc8PXz0YHgYXHGO1eVxexKw&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwjm79bK-o7kAhXMMd4KHdsYAwIQ6AEwDHoECAUQAQ#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursa_Major&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draco_(constellation)&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumpolar_star&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladon_(mythology)&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Fleece&#xA;  [8]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursa_Minor" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19611" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5864" RevisionGUID="a79b76a8-b52e-4146-a8ac-b3c1c6b9f5a2" CreationDate="2019-08-20T04:59:22.057" UserId="5431" Comment="added 756 characters in body" Text="In &quot;Yeats Poems&quot; by W. B. Yeats, [pg. 522][1], *(in notes to his poem 'The Poet pleads with the Elemental Powers')* it is written, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Yeats commented that the Great Bear and the constellation of the Dragon 'in certain old mythologies' encircle the Tree of Life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Ursa Major, the Great Bear][2] and [Draco][3] are [circumpolar][4] northern and far northern sky constellations that go around [Polaris][5], the North Pole Star. &#xD;&#xA;&#xA;It's a beautiful allegory, seen here with [the constellations drawn][6] *(U. Minor, not U. Major)* and [the stars moving][7].&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Greek mythology has the dragon [Ladon][8] &quot;twined and twisted around the tree in the Garden of the Hesperides&quot;, guarding the golden apples. A dragon also guards the tree which holds the [Golden Fleece][9].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**But what mythology links the Great Bear with the Tree?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xA;*(And, quite frankly, what mythology links Polaris or [Ursa Minor][10] to the Tree of Life? Was this indeed 'in certain old mythologies' as Yeats wrote, or perhaps in more recent Kabbalah? Seems he might've got the Draco Polaris concept from there, as mentioned in this article: [Concepts from the Bahir][11])*&#xD;&#xD;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com.hk/books?id=3t6xCwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA522&amp;lpg=PA522&amp;dq=yeats%20dragon%20guardian&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=O3aeFqOsB3&amp;sig=ACfU3U2-lcoXc8PXz0YHgYXHGO1eVxexKw&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwjm79bK-o7kAhXMMd4KHdsYAwIQ6AEwDHoECAUQAQ#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursa_Major&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draco_(constellation)&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumpolar_star&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris&#xA;  [6]: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sidney_Hall_-_Urania%27s_Mirror_-_Draco_and_Ursa_Minor.jpg#mw-jump-to-license&#xA;  [7]: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Zirkumpolar_ani.gif#mw-jump-to-license&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladon_(mythology)&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Fleece&#xA;  [10]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursa_Minor&#xA;  [11]: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&amp;source=web&amp;rct=j&amp;url=http://libroesoterico.com/biblioteca/Cabala/Varios/Kabbalah/Concepts%2520from%2520the%2520Bahir%2520The%2520Tree%2520of%2520Life%2520in%2520the%2520Kabbalah.pdf&amp;ved=2ahUKEwiKvqW-0pDkAhXN7GEKHX1hCewQFjAGegQIBxAB&amp;usg=AOvVaw1LhjA-HgnrLz2UpH4gv5Ik" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19613" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5865" RevisionGUID="c8f4fa64-5e6d-497e-9dde-0fa1170cd4b5" CreationDate="2019-08-20T18:37:41.920" UserDisplayName="user6252" Text="Here's a simple question from me today...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So recently I came across a few answers on this site about the River Styx Goddess, and how you can make promises upon her. If you don't fulfill the promise, you get punished or cursed. But that got me thinking for a bit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can she swear upon herself? And if she did, could she also curse herself if she failed to keep that promise?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is this just a hypothetical paradox that really has no answer? Or is there a logical one? Please let me know. Thanks!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19614" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5865" RevisionGUID="c8f4fa64-5e6d-497e-9dde-0fa1170cd4b5" CreationDate="2019-08-20T18:37:41.920" UserDisplayName="user6252" Text="Can the River Styx Goddess curse herself?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19615" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5865" RevisionGUID="c8f4fa64-5e6d-497e-9dde-0fa1170cd4b5" CreationDate="2019-08-20T18:37:41.920" UserDisplayName="user6252" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19616" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5866" RevisionGUID="4b5c69d0-57da-4ca4-9444-07b39999fcaa" CreationDate="2019-08-20T18:50:06.330" UserDisplayName="user6252" Text="So I have a few answers and comments to your question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yes, the info in the first two paragraphs are correct, so your got that part right. Well done.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Second...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The belief isn't mentioned in Wikipedia's Wolves in folklore, religion&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and mythology and I didn't find anything about it around the net. I&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wonder if this is an actual folklore belief, or something the author&#xD;&#xA;&gt; made up.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Well I did some searching up on the web, and I found a section of the exact wiki page you referenced stating that yes, indeed wolves will come back to revenge their death if killed (Cherokee belief). But I couldn't find that belief anywhere else.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Third...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can read more about it here: [Wolves in folklore, religion, and mythology.][1]&#xD;&#xA;I found your answer in the last paragraph of the &quot;United States&quot; section. Try typing Crtl + F on your keyboard to specify which words your looking for. It really helps to narrow the search for you.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Well I hope that answers your question. Thanks!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolves_in_folklore,_religion_and_mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19617" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5867" RevisionGUID="4d835da4-3319-4b4e-88fb-e58655714dbf" CreationDate="2019-08-20T19:14:10.340" UserDisplayName="user6252" Text="I know this is an old and possibly forgotten question, but I'm going to try to answer it anyway (also I have no clue about Hinduism, so I'm going to try my best of what I can find on the web).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So from what I learned, these four objects look very similar on the outside, but if you take a look on the inside (blueprints), you can see that they vary slightly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Rukma has four different platforms all inside a cone shaped object. It has 2 passenger platforms (top), and two control platforms (bottom). It also has two fan blades at the front, and a light bulb (I think).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Tripura is more of a submarine like craft, with a propeller at the front, and a ruddar at the back. Measuring 100 feet in length, it has it's entrance (I don't know what it's called, but it's like two small pillars with a hatch) in the top middle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Shakuna is more of a warship looking craft, but it has 3 extra fins, two at the sides, and 1 at the back. At the top is an antenna looking thing, making up half the height of the ship.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And finally the Sundara. It's similar to the Rukma, but it only has one fan at the top, and it has a wider base.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like I said before, I don't know anything about this, so I only provided the physical descriptions. Sorry for the lack of information. Hope this helps!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;EDIT: Like @MalayTheDynamo said, try asking this somewhere else where more people would have the answer. Right now, I find this site more about Western topics, but hopefully it will change in the future." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19618" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5868" RevisionGUID="06c18a40-bce1-4972-a4c1-2872a622140a" CreationDate="2019-08-20T19:24:20.793" UserDisplayName="user6252" Text="Yes, I know this is an old and probably forgotten question, but I'm trying to improve this site's answer ratio (and stuff like that).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So after digging around the web, I could really find any accounts of him before Philostratus. According to Wikipedia, the realist account of him was written by Philostratus. So unless we discover older writings or mentions of him, then no. This is the earliest ever written piece of him. And plus it is very detailed so be sure to check it out." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19619" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5857" RevisionGUID="1bfcba8a-61d3-400a-a00b-6dcfb99f9c4e" CreationDate="2019-08-20T23:20:42.257" UserId="57" Comment="added 12 characters in body" Text="Isidoros Zourgos in his novel &quot;Στην σκιά της πεταλούδας&quot; mentions that if you kill a wolf, the animal's spirit will come back and kill you after forty days. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The origin of the belief is assumed to be Adrianoupoli (Edirne), in Turkey (the &quot;old country&quot; of the novel). It may be a Greek belief, as the characters of the novel are Greek and Adrianoupoli at the time of novel (1910s, early 1920s) had a significant Greek population.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The belief isn't mentioned in Wikipedia's [Wolves in folklore, religion and mythology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolves_in_folklore,_religion_and_mythology#Indo-European) and I didn't find anything about it around the net. &#xD;&#xA;I wonder if this is an actual folklore belief of the area, or something the author made up. &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19620" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5866" RevisionGUID="a571674b-f810-44b3-974e-3a8df4a5dd58" CreationDate="2019-08-20T23:29:28.247" UserId="57" Comment="removed unnecessarily condescending commentary." Text="So I have a few answers and comments to your question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yes, the info in the first two paragraphs are correct, so your got that part right. Well done.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Second...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The belief isn't mentioned in Wikipedia's Wolves in folklore, religion&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and mythology and I didn't find anything about it around the net. I&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wonder if this is an actual folklore belief, or something the author&#xD;&#xA;&gt; made up.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Well I did some searching up on the web, and I found a section of the exact wiki page you referenced stating that yes, indeed wolves will come back to revenge their death if killed (Cherokee belief). But I couldn't find that belief anywhere else.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Third...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can read more about it here: [Wolves in folklore, religion, and mythology.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Well I hope that answers your question. Thanks!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolves_in_folklore,_religion_and_mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19621" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5857" RevisionGUID="1d92a447-f790-4d76-b680-600796a407f1" CreationDate="2019-08-20T23:48:48.517" UserId="57" Comment="added 295 characters in body" Text="Isidoros Zourgos in his novel &quot;Στην σκιά της πεταλούδας&quot; mentions that if you kill a wolf, the animal's spirit will come back and kill you after forty days. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The origin of the belief is assumed to be Adrianoupoli (Edirne), in Turkey (the &quot;old country&quot; of the novel). It may be a Greek belief, as the characters of the novel are Greek and Adrianoupoli at the time of novel (1910s, early 1920s) had a significant Greek population.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The belief isn't mentioned in Wikipedia's [Wolves in folklore, religion and mythology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolves_in_folklore,_religion_and_mythology#Indo-European) and I didn't find anything about it around the net. Wikipedia does mention a similar Cherokee legend, but I don't think it's likely that is the one Zourgos is referencing. The belief is mentioned in connection to an illiterate Greek refugee from Andrianoupoli in the late 1910s. Not someone I'd expect to be well-versed in Cherokee folklore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I wonder if this is an actual folklore belief of the area, or something the author made up. &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19622" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5868" RevisionGUID="3dff5c81-4820-4231-a009-97173e42aa63" CreationDate="2019-08-20T23:52:46.563" UserId="57" Comment="please avoid meta commentary in your answers" Text="So after digging around the web, I could really find any accounts of him before Philostratus. According to Wikipedia, the realist account of him was written by Philostratus. So unless we discover older writings or mentions of him, then no. This is the earliest ever written piece of him. And plus it is very detailed so be sure to check it out." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19623" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5869" RevisionGUID="65a88957-19e4-42a3-92f1-e004bcb1b5d1" CreationDate="2019-08-21T20:05:05.137" UserId="5511" Text="You can trace this back to either the Mesopotamian [Gilgamesh epic](http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Gilgamesh,_Epic_of), or ancient Egyptian constellations, mutated during the Greek rule of Egypt of the Ptolemaic dynasties. Much has been written on the first, but only recently the latter has been studied in greater detail, and it actually has links with the Gilgamesh epic, so I will elaborate on the latter below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First off, it should be mentioned that because of the Earth's precession, during the early dynasties the pole star was _not_ the center of the constellations, it was a star called Thuban (Alpha Draconis). So in ancient Egypt, the pole star was of the constellation we call Draco. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ancient Egyptians identified the constellations Ursa Minor and Draco as a reptilian-like creature, named Taweret, who is referred to in the Pyramid Texts. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ancient Egyptian astronomical ceilings that depicted the circumpolar constellations often pictured a female hippopotamus figure with a crocodile tail, occasionally named Ꜣst-ḏꜢmt, Isis-Djamet. She is probably a representation of the nursing goddess, Taweret that also has a crocodile tail, and stands on her two feet Early Greeks or Minoans, through a diffusion of the cult of Taweret, may have interpreted the bipedal figure of Taweret as a regional bear, an animal that, unlike the African hippopotamus, actually stands on its hind legs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Greek tradition, the earliest mention of the bear constellation comes from Homer, circa eighth century BC. The Egyptian word for “hippopotamus,” dıb͗ , is the probable origin for the Akkadian dabû, (Hebrew dōbh, Arabic dubb, and Ethiopian dĕb(b)&#xD;&#xA;meaning “bear” from which the Arabs named the brightest star of Ursa Major, Dubhe or “she bear.” These terms for “bear” could also be related to the Egyptian word for&#xD;&#xA;crocodile, dpy (by interchanging the plosives “p” and “b”). Taweret is usually depicted as a mix of hippo and crocodile characteristics.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Taweret appears frequently in the Book of the Dead is depicted dead centre in the 'circular zodiac' of the temple of Dendera in Upper Egypt:&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At this point you may wonder where the &quot;tree of life constellation&quot; is located, and this brings us to early Osirian mythology. Osiris in early dynasties was associated with a tamarisk tree trunk, was called Djed. His later mummy wrappings were symbolic of his having been encased inside a tree trunk. His mummy was considered the [Axis Mundi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_mundi). Over time the tree trunk was replaced by the imagery of a pillar which became known as the Djed Pillar, the Pillar of Stability. Osiris was enclosed in the trunk of a tamarisk tree, which was later cut down and used as a pillar in the palace of the King of Byblos, he metaphorically became as one with the Tree of Life in the Mesopotamian mythology. Osiris became the Axis Munde around which the heavens appear to revolve; he became the World Pillar, the link between the terrestrial and celestial worlds. If you look at the image of the pyramnid shafts and the position of Draco and Ursa Minor again, you will see that the shaft of leading out from the sarcophagus room in the pyramid of Khufu points directly to Thuban. In this way the symbolic link is made between the sarcophagus, Osiris as the first mummy, and rebirth in the afterlife.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This elaborate study might be of interest to you: [The Celestial River](http://www.sino-platonic.org/complete/spp253_ancient_egyptian_constellations.pdf)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/6Rkfk.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/4MTW9.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19624" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5870" RevisionGUID="ddba1ddf-56c2-486f-8766-239aac03f28d" CreationDate="2019-08-22T18:07:54.293" UserId="5726" Text="## but why? ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First of all, why should/would she curse herself? As far as I know there is no mythology related to your question so an answer from a mythological standpoint is not possible (imho).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Hypothetically ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hypothetically speaking if the goddess Styx were to fail in her oath she would have to drink from the river Styx. The water in this river is deadly to humans, black as the night and to gods it means madness. Her rights as a god would be revoked and be brought to Tartaros laid flat and not breathing for a great year (not so great for her). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Hesiod's Theogony:&#xD;&#xA;---------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And there [in Haides] is housed a goddess loathed even by the immortals : dreaded Styx, eldest daughter of Okeanos (Oceanus), who flows back on himself, and apart from the gods she lives in her famous palace which is overroofed with towering rocks, and the whole circuit is undergirded with silver columns, and pushes heaven; and seldom does . . . Iris (the Rainbow), come her way with a message across the sea's wide ridges, those times when dispute and quarelling start among the immortals, and some one of those who have their homes on Olympos is lying, and Zeus sends Iris to carry the many-storied water that the gods swear their great oath on, thence, in a golden pitcher, that cold water that drizzles down from a steep sky-climbing cliffside, and it is one horn of the Okeanos stream, and travels off that holy river a great course through night's blackness under the wide-wayed earth and this water is a tenth part of all, for in nine loops of silver-swirling waters, around the earth and the sea's wide ridges he tumbles into salt water, but this stream, greatly vexing the gods, runs off the precipice.&#xD;&#xA;**And whoever of the gods, who keep the summits of snowy Olympos, pours of this water, and swears on it, and is forsworn, is laid flat, and does not breathe, until a year is completed; nor is this god let come near ambrosia and nectar to eat, but with no voice in him, and no breath, he is laid out flat, on a made bed, and the evil coma covers him. But when, in the course of a great year, he is over his sickness, there follows on in succession another trial, yet harsher: for nine years he is cut off from all part of the everlasting gods, nor has anything to do with their counsels, their festivals for nine years entire, but in the tenth he once more mingles in the assemblies of the gods who have their homes on Olympos. Such an oath did the gods make of the imperishable, primevil water of Styx; and it jets down through jagged country.&quot;**  &lt;sub&gt;Hesiod, Theogony 775 ff (trans. Evelyn-White) (Greek epic C8th or C7th B.C.)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Presumably this would happen to the goddess Styx if she were to hypothetically curse herself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a question on this site called &lt;sub&gt;[What would happen if you made contradictory vows on the River Styx?][1]&lt;/sub&gt; I suggest reading the [answer][2] of @Adinkra for extra info on the consequences of swearing an oath on the river Styx.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1213/what-would-happen-if-you-made-contradictory-vows-on-the-river-styx?rq=1&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/1728/5726" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19629" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5642" RevisionGUID="bbf1e58a-b5cb-40a8-be81-5b6e19400166" CreationDate="2019-08-23T18:35:00.877" UserDisplayName="user6252" Comment="Fixed minor grammar issues" Text="To make sure your vessel is seaworthy.&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sailors in the 17th century would sometimes knock with their hands or tools on the wooden hull of their ship to listen for [woodworm][1] or rot, hearing a solid sound coming from wood in the hull would mean it was good to go (or ship shape). In fact this was a practice during [the age of sail][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For continuing your good luck streak&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When sailors were conversing with one another and the subject of good luck came up the sailors would sometimes tell one another that they needed to touch or knock wood (implying the ship ofcourse).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This good luck could also be a reference to the fact they made the journey this far on good terms, and where hoping that their ship would finish its voyage fast and that their ship's hull would stay whole and strong. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In my own culture&#xD;&#xA;-----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In my country (the Netherlands) this superstition is also deeply embedded into our culture (among a lot of other maritime superstitions) and we call it &quot;afkloppen&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Afkloppen* of *aftikken* is een vorm van volksgeloof en een ritueel waarbij oorspronkelijk op **ongeverfd hout** wordt getikt, om daardoor mogelijk ongeluk af te wenden, wanneer men zich verheugt over genoten geluk of wanneer iets geprezen wordt. &lt;sub&gt;[dutch wiki on &quot;afkloppen&quot;][3]'Afkloppen, aftikken', in: Folkloristisch Woordenboek van Nederland en Vlaams België/ K. ter Laan, 1949, pp. 7.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Translated this loosely means :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Afkloppen* or *aftikken* is a form of folklore and a ritual which originally meant that you needed to knock or tap on a piece of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **unpainted wood** to ward off bad luck, especially when you already had a string of good luck and would like that good luck to continue. &lt;sub&gt;[dutch wiki on &quot;afkloppen&quot;][3]'Afkloppen, aftikken', in: Folkloristisch Woordenboek van Nederland en Vlaams België/ K. ter Laan, 1949, pp. 7.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tempting fate&#xD;&#xA;--------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At first I thought this was mostly because my country has a deep naval tradition (along with a reasonable amount of European countries) spanning back some centuries.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Looking further I found that most countries in Europe (and after looking at [Wikipedia][4] countries all over the world) have some sort of superstition/ritual implying that the knocking on or touching of wood seems to be a way of bringing good luck or to not &quot;tempt fate&quot;([jinx][5]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Wikipedia][6] says that its rooted in German folklore but they are missing the citations needed to further investigate this claim. There is probably someone on this site that might be able to answer this. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If anyone has some sources I would be happy to investigate this further.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodworm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Sail&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afkloppen&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knocking_on_wood&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinx&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knocking_on_wood#Origin" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19630" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5642" RevisionGUID="bbf1e58a-b5cb-40a8-be81-5b6e19400166" CreationDate="2019-08-23T18:35:00.877" Comment="Proposed by 6252 approved by 2774, 5726 edit id of 1754" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19631" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5870" RevisionGUID="36d8c4e6-3e7e-4679-b7ee-62048108877e" CreationDate="2019-08-23T18:51:49.597" UserId="5726" Comment="improved explanation" Text="## Hypothetically ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hypothetically speaking if the goddess Styx were to fail in her oath she would have to drink from the river Styx. The water in this river is deadly to humans, black as the night and to gods it means madness. Her rights as a god would be revoked and be brought to Tartaros laid flat and not breathing for a great year (not so great for her). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Hesiod's Theogony:&#xD;&#xA;---------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And there [in Haides] is housed a goddess loathed even by the immortals : dreaded Styx, eldest daughter of Okeanos (Oceanus), who flows back on himself, and apart from the gods she lives in her famous palace which is overroofed with towering rocks, and the whole circuit is undergirded with silver columns, and pushes heaven; and seldom does . . . Iris (the Rainbow), come her way with a message across the sea's wide ridges, those times when dispute and quarelling start among the immortals, and some one of those who have their homes on Olympos is lying, and Zeus sends Iris to carry the many-storied water that the gods swear their great oath on, thence, in a golden pitcher, that cold water that drizzles down from a steep sky-climbing cliffside, and it is one horn of the Okeanos stream, and travels off that holy river a great course through night's blackness under the wide-wayed earth and this water is a tenth part of all, for in nine loops of silver-swirling waters, around the earth and the sea's wide ridges he tumbles into salt water, but this stream, greatly vexing the gods, runs off the precipice.&#xD;&#xA;**And whoever of the gods, who keep the summits of snowy Olympos, pours of this water, and swears on it, and is forsworn, is laid flat, and does not breathe, until a year is completed; nor is this god let come near ambrosia and nectar to eat, but with no voice in him, and no breath, he is laid out flat, on a made bed, and the evil coma covers him. But when, in the course of a great year, he is over his sickness, there follows on in succession another trial, yet harsher: for nine years he is cut off from all part of the everlasting gods, nor has anything to do with their counsels, their festivals for nine years entire, but in the tenth he once more mingles in the assemblies of the gods who have their homes on Olympos. Such an oath did the gods make of the imperishable, primevil water of Styx; and it jets down through jagged country.&quot;**  &lt;sub&gt;Hesiod, Theogony 775 ff (trans. Evelyn-White) (Greek epic C8th or C7th B.C.)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Presumably this would happen to the goddess Styx if she were to hypothetically curse herself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a question on this site called &lt;sub&gt;[What would happen if you made contradictory vows on the River Styx?][1]&lt;/sub&gt; I suggest reading the [answer][2] of @Adinkra for extra info on the consequences of swearing an oath on the river Styx.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1213/what-would-happen-if-you-made-contradictory-vows-on-the-river-styx?rq=1&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/1728/5726" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19632" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5872" RevisionGUID="f1954799-e692-4ca6-a6ea-d311e2a5771b" CreationDate="2019-08-23T19:39:37.120" UserId="5726" Text="For this answer to work you will need the entire story of Job and his struggles, which is why i have included all of [Job 1][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Basically God and Satan had a bet, as told in the story this man got everything in life he needed/wanted. God was bragging about his servant Job to Satan. Satan told God that if Job where to be unhappy and have everything taken away from him he would lose faith in God. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To prove a point God told Satan to take everything away from Job but Satan was not allowed to hurt Job. In the end of the story Satan is proven wrong as Job still retains his faith in God and said: The lord has given,&#xD;&#xA;and the lord has taken. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However although by proxy God is indirectly responsible for the deaths of shepherds and their flock for proving a point to Satan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While this messenger was still speaking, another came and announced, “A lightning storm struck and incinerated the flock and the servants while they were eating. I alone escaped to tell you!”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Job’s Faithfulness**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There once was a man in the land of Uz named Job. The man was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; blameless as well as upright. He feared God and kept away from evil. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Seven sons and three daughters had been born to him. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; His livestock included 7,000 sheep, 3,000 camels, 500 teams of oxen,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 500 female donkeys, and many servants. Indeed, the man’s stature&#xD;&#xA;&gt; greatly exceeded that of many people who lived in the East. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; His sons used to travel to each other’s houses in turn on a regular&#xD;&#xA;&gt; schedule and hold festivals, inviting their three sisters to celebrate&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with them.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; When their time of feasting had concluded, Job would rise early in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the morning to send for them and consecrate them to God. He would&#xD;&#xA;&gt; offer a burnt offering for each one, because Job thought, “Perhaps my&#xD;&#xA;&gt; children sinned by cursing God in their hearts.” Job did this time and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; again.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Satan’s First Attack on Job**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  One day, divine beings presented themselves to the LORD, and Satan&#xD;&#xA;&gt; accompanied them.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  The LORD asked Satan, “Where have you come from?” In response,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Satan answered the LORD, “From wandering all over the earth and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; walking back and forth throughout it.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then the LORD asked Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job?&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There is no one like him on earth. The man is blameless as well as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; upright. He fears God and keeps away from evil.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; But in response, Satan asked the LORD, “Does Job fear God for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; nothing? &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Haven’t you surrounded him with a fence on all sides, around his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; house, and around all that he owns? You have blessed everything he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; puts his hands on and you have increased his livestock in the land.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  However, stretch out your hand and strike everything he owns, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he will curse you to your face.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then the LORD told Satan, “Very well then, everything he owns is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; under your control, only you may not extend your hand against him.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So Satan left the LORD’s presence.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Some time later, when his children were celebrating in their oldest&#xD;&#xA;&gt; brother’s house, a messenger approached Job and said, “The oxen&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were plowing and the female donkeys were grazing nearby when the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sabeans attacked, captured the servants, and killed them with swords.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I alone escaped to tell you!”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **While this messenger was still speaking, another came and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; announced, “A lightning storm struck and incinerated the flock and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; servants while they were eating. I alone escaped to tell you!”**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; While this messenger was still speaking, another came and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; announced, “The Chaldeans formed three companies, raided the camels,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; captured the servants, and killed them with swords. Only I alone&#xD;&#xA;&gt; escaped to tell you.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; While this messenger was still speaking, another came and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; announced, “Your children were celebrating in their oldest brother’s&#xD;&#xA;&gt; house.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; when a strong wind came straight out of the wilderness and struck&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the four corners of the house. It collapsed on the young people, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they died. I alone escaped to tell you!”  &lt;sub&gt;[International Standard Version Job 1][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://biblehub.com/isv/job/1.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19633" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5872" RevisionGUID="856f8c01-bfb0-4e57-9347-0db91c5dad62" CreationDate="2019-08-23T19:47:31.357" UserId="5726" Comment="added 91 characters in body" Text="For this answer to work you will need the entire story of Job and his struggles, which is why i have included all of [Job 1][1]. I like it because it is the first poetic book in the Old Testament of the Christian Bible&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Basically God and Satan had a bet, as told in the story this man got everything in life he needed/wanted. God was bragging about his servant Job to Satan. Satan told God that if Job where to be unhappy and have everything taken away from him he would lose faith in God. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To prove a point God told Satan to take everything away from Job but Satan was not allowed to hurt Job. In the end of the story Satan is proven wrong as Job still retains his faith in God and said: The lord has given,&#xD;&#xA;and the lord has taken. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However although by proxy God is indirectly responsible for the deaths of shepherds and their flock for proving a point to Satan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While this messenger was still speaking, another came and announced, “A lightning storm struck and incinerated the flock and the servants while they were eating. I alone escaped to tell you!”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Job’s Faithfulness**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There once was a man in the land of Uz named Job. The man was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; blameless as well as upright. He feared God and kept away from evil. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Seven sons and three daughters had been born to him. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; His livestock included 7,000 sheep, 3,000 camels, 500 teams of oxen,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 500 female donkeys, and many servants. Indeed, the man’s stature&#xD;&#xA;&gt; greatly exceeded that of many people who lived in the East. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; His sons used to travel to each other’s houses in turn on a regular&#xD;&#xA;&gt; schedule and hold festivals, inviting their three sisters to celebrate&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with them.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; When their time of feasting had concluded, Job would rise early in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the morning to send for them and consecrate them to God. He would&#xD;&#xA;&gt; offer a burnt offering for each one, because Job thought, “Perhaps my&#xD;&#xA;&gt; children sinned by cursing God in their hearts.” Job did this time and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; again.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Satan’s First Attack on Job**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  One day, divine beings presented themselves to the LORD, and Satan&#xD;&#xA;&gt; accompanied them.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  The LORD asked Satan, “Where have you come from?” In response,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Satan answered the LORD, “From wandering all over the earth and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; walking back and forth throughout it.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then the LORD asked Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job?&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There is no one like him on earth. The man is blameless as well as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; upright. He fears God and keeps away from evil.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; But in response, Satan asked the LORD, “Does Job fear God for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; nothing? &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Haven’t you surrounded him with a fence on all sides, around his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; house, and around all that he owns? You have blessed everything he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; puts his hands on and you have increased his livestock in the land.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  However, stretch out your hand and strike everything he owns, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he will curse you to your face.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then the LORD told Satan, “Very well then, everything he owns is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; under your control, only you may not extend your hand against him.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So Satan left the LORD’s presence.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Some time later, when his children were celebrating in their oldest&#xD;&#xA;&gt; brother’s house, a messenger approached Job and said, “The oxen&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were plowing and the female donkeys were grazing nearby when the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sabeans attacked, captured the servants, and killed them with swords.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I alone escaped to tell you!”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **While this messenger was still speaking, another came and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; announced, “A lightning storm struck and incinerated the flock and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; servants while they were eating. I alone escaped to tell you!”**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; While this messenger was still speaking, another came and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; announced, “The Chaldeans formed three companies, raided the camels,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; captured the servants, and killed them with swords. Only I alone&#xD;&#xA;&gt; escaped to tell you.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; While this messenger was still speaking, another came and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; announced, “Your children were celebrating in their oldest brother’s&#xD;&#xA;&gt; house.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; when a strong wind came straight out of the wilderness and struck&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the four corners of the house. It collapsed on the young people, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they died. I alone escaped to tell you!”  &lt;sub&gt;[International Standard Version Job 1][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://biblehub.com/isv/job/1.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19634" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5873" RevisionGUID="164a99ae-b70d-4f2b-b345-1332d0c4fce0" CreationDate="2019-08-23T22:30:50.353" UserDisplayName="user6252" Text="So I've been reading up on some old Greek stories lately, and I came across the story of Thanatos. If I'm correct, he is supposed to carry the souls of the dead to the Underworld as they died. But even in ancient times, hundreds if not thousands of people died each day. Could Thanatos really carry the souls of each of them one by one to the Underworld (I would suspect not since it would take far too long)? Did he have super speed or was something else going on?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19635" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5873" RevisionGUID="164a99ae-b70d-4f2b-b345-1332d0c4fce0" CreationDate="2019-08-23T22:30:50.353" UserDisplayName="user6252" Text="What are the limits to Thanatos's powers?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19636" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5873" RevisionGUID="164a99ae-b70d-4f2b-b345-1332d0c4fce0" CreationDate="2019-08-23T22:30:50.353" UserDisplayName="user6252" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19637" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5874" RevisionGUID="9c198f41-5420-4e25-acea-ac01a98275f6" CreationDate="2019-08-24T20:46:18.113" UserId="6301" Text="The coincidence of name between the Hindu Goddess Kali and the demon Kali is one of translation of the name and context of expression.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Kalki Purana is the primary source for this mortal demon in which he is described as the source of all evil. In the Mahabharata, Kali is described as a gandharva. In the Mahabharat, he created the war between the Pandavas and the Kauravas in a game of Chaupar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali_(demon)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19638" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5875" RevisionGUID="afe238d4-8a9c-4aca-bf6d-83fc24144f85" CreationDate="2019-08-25T06:42:22.430" UserId="6304" Text="Because Styx is the mother of Nike, victory, force and strength. If the gods break an oath to her, then victory, strength, and force may leave. Therefore, even Zeus may lose to a war. Imagine if Styx and her children decide to join the titans. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19639" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5876" RevisionGUID="7f167395-1062-4104-8d30-09e181e259e8" CreationDate="2019-08-25T17:16:33.997" UserId="6305" Text="I'm trying to recall a Greek myth in which a human is told to appeal to a Greek god by holding onto his or her feet. The human is warned that the god will morph into many shapes, but the human is told that the shapes are harmless.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's, of course, a story of how appearances are harmless." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19640" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5876" RevisionGUID="7f167395-1062-4104-8d30-09e181e259e8" CreationDate="2019-08-25T17:16:33.997" UserId="6305" Text="Trying to recall Greek myth about holding a god's feet as he morphs harmlessly" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19641" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5876" RevisionGUID="7f167395-1062-4104-8d30-09e181e259e8" CreationDate="2019-08-25T17:16:33.997" UserId="6305" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19642" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5157" RevisionGUID="67606368-0062-41ca-8ebd-00be62ef2c54" CreationDate="2019-08-25T18:41:12.943" UserDisplayName="user5459" Comment="[Edit removed during grace period]" Text="Stories like the tale of the bamboo cutter that are about extraterrestrial beings who visit earth and either return to their place of origin or not. They can also be about people from earth visiting the moon or other planets and either returning or not returning to earth. Are there any except the one already mentioned and Lucian's True Story?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19643" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5877" RevisionGUID="757659d7-4b6a-482a-baf3-3d564f1621ca" CreationDate="2019-08-25T20:58:09.127" UserId="3114" Text="At first, Achilles came to the war for glory. Being the conqueror in one of the biggest battle of all times, conquering the city of Troy which was famous for being so impregnable... this was naturally challenging his warrior instincts. The original reluctance to fight along with Agamemnon disappeared after Patrocles died. He could now finish the campaign and be the hero to conquer Troy." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19644" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5878" RevisionGUID="4d1ff8f9-fab8-42d5-bdce-32fa81b9dbd4" CreationDate="2019-08-25T21:19:04.380" UserId="3114" Text="Yes, it is true. Cannot give you scientific proof but that's what I understood on my spiritual journey :-) And it's not only truth about gods, but also about places, statues... for example. If you come to an Indian temple where people worship with pure heart and pray every day... and you are sensitive enough, you will feel how holy the place is, you will &quot;feel the god&quot; there. On the other side, if you buy a statue of a god, bring it at home, and if it will be for you just a statue from a vacation, it will not have that power that you feel in the temple. Whereas if you would pray to that statue every day, that power would be there. I am now at a point where I can feel these things - if I enter some space, it is very different if someone takes care of it spiritually or not. It's like cleaning, but on different levels :-)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's also another New Age metaphysical teaching, represented e.g. by Teal Swan. And it perfectly fits to mythology as well. According to this teaching, there are a lot of beings that are interested to interfere with humans on Earth, since this is probably the most interesting experiment in the Universe :-D Some of those beings are here to help, some of them can be parasitic ([like demons](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XHbsjopo2Y)). People can have a lot of conscious and unconscious contracts with these beings and their power is basically proportional to the attention (conscious or unconscious) that they get from people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the second part of your question, I think they cannot be killed. Anyone who would remind and remember them would again put them to life back again." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19645" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5879" RevisionGUID="ff0ca0a1-94e9-448b-b0ac-4d63cefdf28e" CreationDate="2019-08-26T00:42:07.997" UserId="5229" Text="This sounds like Menalaus' encounter with [Proteus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proteus). Menelaus narrates it in Homer's *Odyssey* ([book 4](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/odyssey.4.iv.html)). Proteus' daughter advises Menelaus to go grab Proteus and not let go even though he changes his appearance. Menelaus goes as he was advised, and seizes him, and Proteus changes into many forms, but Menelaus and his men don't let go, and in the end he is forced to provide Menelaus with the information he wanted.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;'First he [Proteus] will look over all his seals, and count them; then, when he has seen them and tallied them on his five fingers, he will go to sleep among them, as a shepherd among his sheep. The moment you see that he is asleep seize him; put forth all your strength and hold him fast, for he will do his very utmost to get away from you. He will turn himself into every kind of creature that goes upon the earth, and will become also both fire and water; but you must hold him fast and grip him tighter and tighter, till he begins to talk to you and comes back to what he was when you saw him go to sleep; then you may slacken your hold and let him go; and you can ask him which of the gods it is that is angry with you, and what you must do to reach your home over the seas.' (*Odyssey* 4.411-424)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19646" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5880" RevisionGUID="cb8ca2a8-f164-44cc-917f-7c8a1a3202d0" CreationDate="2019-08-26T02:11:50.777" UserId="6173" Text="His connection is that he created horses. There are different versions of the story, but one of them is that in an attempt to woo Dementer, and so created them out of sea foam. There are also different endings to this, one where Dementer consents and gives herself up to him, another where Poseidon doesn’t love her anymore by the time he finishes." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19647" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5881" RevisionGUID="cf66ad6f-1a1c-45b5-b944-e7a4a8c9071a" CreationDate="2019-08-26T10:38:57.200" UserId="6309" Text="...the northern constellations circle the North star, therefore it is the hub, which is to say the seat of the axle/axis. So, for those cultures that envisage this hypothetical pillar as a tree, the bear and the dragon circle this tree &#xD;&#xA;most closely..." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19648" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5882" RevisionGUID="0f188d3e-b59c-4a86-a52f-44ac25352f20" CreationDate="2019-08-27T10:53:27.300" UserId="6312" Text="Many people say that Satan(Lucifer's Devil side) completely originated from Ahriman. I don't know much about the Avesta of Zoroaster but is that true? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19649" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5882" RevisionGUID="0f188d3e-b59c-4a86-a52f-44ac25352f20" CreationDate="2019-08-27T10:53:27.300" UserId="6312" Text="Satan and Angra Mainyu" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19650" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5882" RevisionGUID="0f188d3e-b59c-4a86-a52f-44ac25352f20" CreationDate="2019-08-27T10:53:27.300" UserId="6312" Text="|christianity|the-devil|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19651" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3194" RevisionGUID="d474803c-d097-4bb5-8438-3e31ab820be0" CreationDate="2019-08-27T12:00:45.073" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="19652" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5882" RevisionGUID="514e3391-fbff-4a93-bab7-5d788ae934c5" CreationDate="2019-08-27T13:48:39.253" UserId="6312" Comment="edited tags" Text="|christianity|underworld|bible|the-devil|demons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19653" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5883" RevisionGUID="58b83060-588a-4660-a5f4-ac98f0b320d6" CreationDate="2019-08-27T15:15:23.703" UserId="5511" Text="&gt; Satan (or the devil) obtained for Jewish ideas almost the same&#xD;&#xA;&gt; significance as Ahriman for Persian. Indeed, in certain respects he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; developed greater power than his Persian counterpart, inasmuch as he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; succeeded in corrupting the immediate followers of God, whereas&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ahriman, in his contest with Ahuramazda, did not achieve such success.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Jews tried to preserve the monism that was their original view by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; explaining the rise of dualism as due to a fall among the originally&#xD;&#xA;&gt; good spirits.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From [AHRIMAN (Angro-mainyush; identical with Satan, the Devil, Armilus)](http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1003-ahriman)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19654" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5884" RevisionGUID="4d8b4190-595d-4fa2-b89f-75d4f1a51fdb" CreationDate="2019-08-27T18:08:58.913" UserDisplayName="user6252" Text="Poseidon, God of the Sea - water powers&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus, God of lightning - lightning powers&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hades - God of the Underworld - devilish powers&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But what about Ares? Is he good at fighting? Can he summon swords at will? What is a &quot;war&quot; power?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19655" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5884" RevisionGUID="4d8b4190-595d-4fa2-b89f-75d4f1a51fdb" CreationDate="2019-08-27T18:08:58.913" UserDisplayName="user6252" Text="What were Ares's powers?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19656" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5884" RevisionGUID="4d8b4190-595d-4fa2-b89f-75d4f1a51fdb" CreationDate="2019-08-27T18:08:58.913" UserDisplayName="user6252" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19660" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3194" RevisionGUID="b170c834-41e2-4bb4-bdb4-d33c250e4bf6" CreationDate="2019-08-30T18:16:36.020" UserId="5229" Comment="adding philippine tag, making direct link instead of redirecting URL" Text="Libulan is a moon God of the Visayan pantheon. His story is roughly something like this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Kaptan is said to be the father of Lihangin, the god of the wind, while Magwayen sired the goddess of the sea, Lidagat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;With the permission of their fathers, Lidagat and Lihangin got married and raised four kids: the strong Licalibutan who had a body made of rock; the always-happy Liadlaw (god of sun) who was covered with gold; the shy and weak Libulan (god of moon) who was made of copper; and the only daughter, Lisuga (god of stars), whose silver body always sparkled.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;For a time, the family seemed to be happy and had no issues at all. However, everything changed when Lihangin and Lidagat died. Their eldest son, Licalibutan, became the victim of his own greed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;One day, he planned a surprise attack against the skyworld to hopefully seize its control from the supreme god Kaptan, his grandfather. Joining him were Liadlaw and Libulan who were too afraid of him to even think of backing out. Together, they went to the skyworld and blew up the gates protecting the kingdom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;When Kaptan learned about the attack, he was enraged. The skygod sent three lightning bolts to his grandsons, which all melted instantly. Both Liadlaw and Libulan were reduced into a ball, while Licalibutan‘s rock-hard body broke into pieces, fell into the sea, and became what is known as land.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Lisuga, unaware of what was happening, also went to the skyworld to visit his grandfather. Kaptan, too blinded by his anger, struck the innocent Lisuga with lightning as well, breaking her into thousand pieces.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;When he and Magwayen finally met, things started to sink in for Kaptan. He lost all his grandchildren, including the beautiful Lisuga who had nothing to do with the conspiracy at all.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The grief-stricken Kaptan, upon realizing *he could no longer revive the four deities* , decided to just provide their remains with an everlasting light. Hence, Liadlaw became the sun, Libulan became the moon, and Lisuga became what we know today as the stars.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([source](https://www.filipiknow.net/the-ancient-visayan-deities-of-philippine-mythology/))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, it is said that Malandok, the god of war, fell on love with him and that in the war that Sidapa, the god of death, and Malandok fought(to win Libulan), Sidapa won. How is that possible if Libulan was already dead? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19661" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3194" RevisionGUID="b170c834-41e2-4bb4-bdb4-d33c250e4bf6" CreationDate="2019-08-30T18:16:36.020" UserId="5229" Comment="adding philippine tag, making direct link instead of redirecting URL" Text="|resurrection|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19662" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3194" RevisionGUID="b170c834-41e2-4bb4-bdb4-d33c250e4bf6" CreationDate="2019-08-30T18:16:36.020" Comment="Proposed by 5229 approved by 2774, 5726 edit id of 1755" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19663" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5885" RevisionGUID="76791757-281d-4f81-8ba9-01147cb2f05c" CreationDate="2019-08-31T03:26:25.013" UserId="6167" Text="Well he's not a strategist, that's Athena.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think it's fair to say Ares is a good fighter. But he's not the best- he's lost to Athena, and he has been on the losing side of a war as well. And that doesn't mean he's literally anything else - he runs in the face of battle, he sneaks around with Aphrodite behind her husband's back, he is hot headed and impetuous and bloodthirsty. He's a warrior who's a step above a barbarian(he represents the [violent and bloody aspects of war)][1], not a general (Again, that's Athena, she's not goddess of wisdom for nothing), or even a great warrior like Hercules, who did his Labours to atone for his crimes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ares is usually portrayed in a less than flattering light, and is frankly a bit of a [bloodthirsty flake][2]. Deimos and Phobos, Terror and Dread, are his attendants, without military strategies could be planned like chess strategies, because your men would never cut and run in the face of battle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You could possibly extrapolate based on his children(Deimos and Phobos being the most commonly and closely associated with him), but he's not a DnD character. It's not a case of every god having a signature spell to summon something that represents them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ares&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/homer/ody/index.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19667" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5887" RevisionGUID="e4cb8df3-ba2f-4b43-a097-4cdd65ead23f" CreationDate="2019-08-31T17:51:05.410" UserId="4022" Text="While I don't know of any Greek or Roman sources that discuss this topic in complete seriousness, it does appear in the comedy of Aristophanes (fifth century BCE)—which indicates that the idea existed in the public consciousness to some extent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the _Birds_ (aka _Ornithes_ in Greek, _Avēs_ in Latin), an army of birds and transformed humans bands together to overthrow the Olympians and take their place. Their plan relies on building a floating city called Nephelococcygia (&quot;Cloudcuckooland&quot;), from which they can blockade Olympus, preventing human offerings from reaching the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This scheme does in fact work, and the gods promptly begin to starve for lack of sacrifices. It's implied that they're literally starving to death (the whole thing is a reference to the Athenian blockade of Mēlos a few years earlier), and in the end Zeus is willing to give up pretty much anything (including a lot of his godly power) in exchange for ending the blockade.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, Aristophanes is a comedian first and foremost, and everything he writes about mythology should be taken with many grains of salt. Nevertheless, this does show that Greek authors were thinking about this idea well before Christianity took over." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19668" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5888" RevisionGUID="3131c826-f61e-4595-be2a-6e1bb58fd392" CreationDate="2019-09-01T07:35:19.967" UserId="6319" Text="Marut is the Wind God, and Hanuman is his son.  Because of this, he becomes Maruti Nandan.  (Marut with a short vowel at the beginning, gets elongated when the case changes in Sanskrit).  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19672" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="490" RevisionGUID="2c7b740b-a578-4946-a334-d9c6bdbdc2c7" CreationDate="2019-09-04T19:58:06.013" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="19673" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5890" RevisionGUID="8834f7d4-7eb5-46fb-a668-5ddb209535f8" CreationDate="2019-09-05T03:58:53.983" UserId="5477" Text="I am looking for some potentially lesser well-known texts from these languages:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Korea&#xD;&#xA;- Georgia&#xD;&#xA;- Kannada&#xD;&#xA;- Bengali&#xD;&#xA;- Persian (Avesta)&#xD;&#xA;- Gujarati&#xD;&#xA;- Amharic&#xD;&#xA;- Urdu&#xD;&#xA;- Cyrillic&#xD;&#xA;- etc.&#xD;&#xA;- Agama (Sufi)&#xD;&#xA;- Tantra&#xD;&#xA;- Thai&#xD;&#xA;- Telugu&#xD;&#xA;- Armenian&#xD;&#xA;- Coptic&#xD;&#xA;- Turkish&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any of these ancient texts _in Text format_ (i.e. not PDF or scanned book).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Looking for it in the original language, not an English translation." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19674" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5890" RevisionGUID="8834f7d4-7eb5-46fb-a668-5ddb209535f8" CreationDate="2019-09-05T03:58:53.983" UserId="5477" Text="Where are these ancient texts online in Unicode format?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19675" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5890" RevisionGUID="8834f7d4-7eb5-46fb-a668-5ddb209535f8" CreationDate="2019-09-05T03:58:53.983" UserId="5477" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19676" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5891" RevisionGUID="129d634b-c908-43f2-b226-614f812eb294" CreationDate="2019-09-05T14:19:44.647" UserId="2774" Text="Strange question. That is far more language than a modern man or anyone ever talked!&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;I can't give texts to all of that, but:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Coptic: You have the fairly excellent [Coptic scriptorium][1], you probably don't need any other resource that this one, both huge and complete. You will need a little bit of copy paste, considering you have the text in coptic, a transliteration and a traduction. You can find easily resources among the Egyptolists around you.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - Old Persian, You have:&#xD;&#xA; -     the [old Persian Corpus][2] This one is written in cuneiform&#xD;&#xA; -     the [avesta][3] this one is old Persian in modern alphabet&#xD;&#xA; -     the [Texas liberal art][4] same as above, modern alphabet render of ancient cuneiform script, so no cuneiform just the transliteration, include a full grammar&#xD;&#xA; -     the [Achaemenid royal inscription][5], again, alphabet render of cuneiform&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A little note on Persian Cuneiform: It is easy to find Persian cuneiform in cuneiform corpus... you just need to understand what you are reading, which is semi problematic (historically the cuneiform was deciphered using precisely a Persian inscription, the one at Behitsun). reading cuneiform is hard (way harder than hieroglyph, by magnitude), due to its inconstancy geographically and over time, while the language cuneiform is expressing is quite stable (learn standard Babylonian and you read fluently old Babylonian and Assyrian), so it is very usual to just find transliterations (not to mention cuneiform in written on clay which is almost impossible to read on photos, so you need either a drawing or a prepared text). So it is the original language, not the original scripting system.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://copticscriptorium.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/texte/etcs/iran/airan/apers/apers.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.avesta.org/op/op.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/eieol_toc/aveol&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://oracc.museum.upenn.edu/ario/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19677" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5891" RevisionGUID="2f232f9a-94a8-4006-9848-208444bba7c6" CreationDate="2019-09-06T11:50:06.737" UserId="2774" Comment="added 422 characters in body" Text="Strange question. That is far more language than a modern man or anyone ever talked!&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;I can't give texts to all of that, but:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Coptic: You have the fairly excellent [Coptic scriptorium][1], you probably don't need any other resource that this one, both huge and complete. You will need a little bit of copy paste, considering you have the text in coptic, a transliteration and a traduction. You can find easily resources among the Egyptolists around you.&#xD;&#xA; - The [sahidica manuscript full version][2] from STEP&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - Old Persian, You have:&#xD;&#xA; -     the [old Persian Corpus][3] This one is written in cuneiform&#xD;&#xA; -     the [avesta][4] this one is old Persian in modern alphabet&#xD;&#xA; -     the [Texas liberal art][5] same as above, modern alphabet render of ancient cuneiform script, so no cuneiform just the transliteration, include a full grammar&#xD;&#xA; -     the [Achaemenid royal inscription][6], again, alphabet render of cuneiform&#xD;&#xA; - Middle Persian used several scripting system, Aramic and Avestan,&#xD;&#xA; - Here is the [Vendidad][7] in Avestan, think to download the [Avestan font][8] and switch to Avestan to see the text properly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A little note on Persian Cuneiform: It is easy to find Persian cuneiform in cuneiform corpus... you just need to understand what you are reading, which is semi problematic (historically the cuneiform was deciphered using precisely a Persian inscription, the one at Behitsun). reading cuneiform is hard (way harder than hieroglyph, by magnitude), due to its inconstancy geographically and over time, while the language cuneiform is expressing is quite stable (learn standard Babylonian and you read fluently old Babylonian and Assyrian), so it is very usual to just find transliterations (not to mention cuneiform in written on clay which is almost impossible to read on photos, so you need either a drawing or a prepared text). So it is the original language, not the original scripting system.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://copticscriptorium.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.stepbible.org/version.jsp?version=CopSahidicMSS&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/texte/etcs/iran/airan/apers/apers.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.avesta.org/op/op.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/eieol_toc/aveol&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://oracc.museum.upenn.edu/ario/&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.avesta.org/vendidad/vd_tc.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.avesta.org/fonts/index.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19679" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="5890" RevisionGUID="8a6de270-1172-40b4-b280-0eb7443bc34b" CreationDate="2019-09-07T14:21:30.067" UserId="57" Comment="102" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;yannis&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="19681" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5893" RevisionGUID="63b83131-2fbb-4812-99f1-fe11ba2e0659" CreationDate="2019-09-07T17:53:53.060" UserId="431" Text="Can you help me identify this fanged grotesque that I saw in [The Wicker Man][1], so I am guessing it is some sort of Celtic mythical element? I have also seen it used elsewhere as door knocks or gargoyle downspouts but can't remember where. Does it have its own name, like the *griffin* being a mythical beast with a lion's body and an eagles' head?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wicker_Man&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/lha7y.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19682" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5893" RevisionGUID="63b83131-2fbb-4812-99f1-fe11ba2e0659" CreationDate="2019-09-07T17:53:53.060" UserId="431" Text="Fanged chimera used for doorknocks and gargoyles?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19683" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5893" RevisionGUID="63b83131-2fbb-4812-99f1-fe11ba2e0659" CreationDate="2019-09-07T17:53:53.060" UserId="431" Text="|celtic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19684" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5894" RevisionGUID="3ffc60ac-363c-46a9-8e63-d479794b0510" CreationDate="2019-09-08T13:33:24.707" UserId="57" Text="The west wall of Chamber B in the [Yazilikaya sanctuary][1], near the Hittite capital Hattusa, depicts - according to Wikipedia - *twelve gods of the underworld*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Twelve Hittite gods of the Underworld in Yazilikaya, a sanctuary of Hattusa][3]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who are these twelve gods? Do they have names, and what is their function? How do they relate to other gods of the Hittite pantheon? Do they feature in any story?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaz%C4%B1l%C4%B1kaya&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hattusa&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/H8r18.jpg&#xD;&#xA;[4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Yazilikaya_B_12erGruppe.jpg&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19685" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5894" RevisionGUID="3ffc60ac-363c-46a9-8e63-d479794b0510" CreationDate="2019-09-08T13:33:24.707" UserId="57" Text="Who are the twelve gods of the underworld of the Hittites?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19686" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5894" RevisionGUID="3ffc60ac-363c-46a9-8e63-d479794b0510" CreationDate="2019-09-08T13:33:24.707" UserId="57" Text="|anatolia|hittite|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19687" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5895" RevisionGUID="7d064488-80df-47e0-bb36-d81fd3230e61" CreationDate="2019-09-10T01:38:05.977" UserId="3341" Text="Thanks for the question. Very interesting search along the way to coming to the following info. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://www.heroicage.org/issues/15/malcor.php&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Excerpt:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Twelve Companions&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;§18.  As Macqueen (1986, 58) pointed out, &quot;The principle weapon employed [from Hittite chariots] was the stabbing spear,&quot; but the Hittite soldiers of the Anatolian hills wielded a slashing-sword, which was replaced by &quot;a long cutting-weapon with a straight blade by &quot;the end of the second millennium&quot; (Macqueen 1986, 59–60). The swords carried by the twelve runners in Chamber B resemble the short, crescent-shaped sword, decorated with animal heads which was carried by Hittite warriors in ceremonies rather than in battle (Macqueen 1986, 59–60). The Hittite axe born by Sarruma has &quot;ribbing round the shaft-hole [that] is a feature&quot; from, among other places, the northern Caucasus area (Macqueen 1986, 61), while the axe's blade &quot;is of a type which can be paralleled only in the Caucasus region&quot; (Macqueen 1986, 61).19 Although the gods carry the swords in this image, recall that in the texts the swords are embedded.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;§19.  The steppe war god himself was not the celestial Ram, but he was represented by the story of the ram, just as Jason can be represented by a reference to the Golden Fleece. This raises the possibility that he was not the sign of Aries but another sign that appeared in the sky along with—or at the same time as—Aries. **The twelve figures associated with the sword god, then, may have nothing at all to do with Underworld deities. Instead, they may represent the twelve signs of the Zodiac, and the crossroads the Hittites associated with them might not be underground at all, but rather in the sky.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Conclusion&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;§20.  The Hittite version of the Sword in the Stone story has several elements in common with the Arthurian variant. Both feature a sword in a graveyard. Both swords are associated with a king. The twelve runners in the Hittite variant parallel the Twelve Knights of the Round Table in Arthurian tradition. Also, the anvil of the Arthurian variant preserves the connection between the forging of iron and the story of the god who planted a sword in a stone. The tales are clearly part of the same tradition, yet, by placing the image of the sword god in conjunction with celestial deities at Yazilikaya, the Hittites retained an association that the Arthurian variant has lost: the tale of the Sword in the Stone had something to do with the stars." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19688" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5895" RevisionGUID="341ce9f9-6604-414f-824c-2e281b5365f3" CreationDate="2019-09-10T02:21:35.843" UserId="3341" Comment="added 123 characters in body" Text="Thanks for the question. Very interesting search along the way to coming to the following info. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; https://www.heroicage.org/issues/15/malcor.php&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Excerpt:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Twelve Companions&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; §18.  As Macqueen (1986, 58) pointed out, &quot;The principle weapon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; employed [from Hittite chariots] was the stabbing spear,&quot; but the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hittite soldiers of the Anatolian hills wielded a slashing-sword,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which was replaced by &quot;a long cutting-weapon with a straight blade by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;the end of the second millennium&quot; (Macqueen 1986, 59–60). The swords&#xD;&#xA;&gt; carried by the twelve runners in Chamber B resemble the short,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; crescent-shaped sword, decorated with animal heads which was carried&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by Hittite warriors in ceremonies rather than in battle (Macqueen&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1986, 59–60). The Hittite axe born by Sarruma has &quot;ribbing round the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shaft-hole [that] is a feature&quot; from, among other places, the northern&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Caucasus area (Macqueen 1986, 61), while the axe's blade &quot;is of a type&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which can be paralleled only in the Caucasus region&quot; (Macqueen 1986,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 61).19 Although the gods carry the swords in this image, recall that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in the texts the swords are embedded.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; §19.  The steppe war god himself was not the celestial Ram, but he was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; represented by the story of the ram, just as Jason can be represented&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by a reference to the Golden Fleece. This raises the possibility that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he was not the sign of Aries but another sign that appeared in the sky&#xD;&#xA;&gt; along with—or at the same time as—Aries. **The twelve figures&#xD;&#xA;&gt; associated with the sword god, then, may have nothing at all to do&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with Underworld deities. Instead, they may represent the twelve signs&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the Zodiac, and the crossroads the Hittites associated with them&#xD;&#xA;&gt; might not be underground at all, but rather in the sky.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Conclusion&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; §20.  **The Hittite version of the Sword in the Stone story** has several&#xD;&#xA;&gt; elements in common with the Arthurian variant. Both feature a sword in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a graveyard. Both swords are associated with a king. The twelve&#xD;&#xA;&gt; runners in the Hittite variant parallel the Twelve Knights of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Round Table in Arthurian tradition. Also, the anvil of the Arthurian&#xD;&#xA;&gt; variant preserves the connection between the forging of iron and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; story of the god who planted a sword in a stone. The tales are clearly&#xD;&#xA;&gt; part of the same tradition, yet, by placing the image of the sword god&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in conjunction with celestial deities at Yazilikaya, the Hittites&#xD;&#xA;&gt; retained an association that the Arthurian variant has lost: the tale&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the Sword in the Stone had something to do with the stars." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19689" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5896" RevisionGUID="c0b017f1-c879-4355-b98e-d612b3b07afe" CreationDate="2019-09-10T18:21:32.557" UserId="3341" Text="A long time ago, I read where the waning and waxing of the moonlight is from the collection of dead souls. When the moon is completely dark/full of souls, they begin to be ferried away and the Light gradually reappears. Eerie, and I still think of it from time to time when noticing the moon phases.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Just found something akin to the above, tho they think the soul is the Light. I remember a saying, &quot;What you fear is the darkness of your own soul.&quot; So, my vote would be for the dark moon to be souls.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. https://carljungdepthpsychologysite.blog/2019/07/11/the-moon-is-dead-your-soul-went-to-the-moon-to-the-preserver-of-souls/#.XXfncihKjDc&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At all events, the moon is always understood as the receptacle of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; souls of the dead.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; They migrate to the moon after death, and the moon gives birth to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; souls in the sun. She first gets quite full of dead souls—that is the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; pregnant full moon—and then she gives them to the sun, where the souls&#xD;&#xA;&gt; attain new life (a Manichean myth).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopomp&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Psychopomps (from the Greek word ψυχοπομπός, psychopompós, literally&#xD;&#xA;&gt; meaning the &quot;guide of souls&quot;)[1] are creatures, spirits, angels, or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; deities in many religions whose responsibility is to escort newly&#xD;&#xA;&gt; deceased souls from Earth to the afterlife. Their role is not to judge&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the deceased, but simply to guide them. Appearing frequently on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; funerary art, psychopomps have been depicted at different times and in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; different cultures as anthropomorphic entities, horses, deer, dogs,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whip-poor-wills, ravens, crows, owls, sparrows and cuckoos. When seen&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as birds, they are often seen in huge masses, waiting outside the home&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the dying.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ancient religion Classical examples of a psychopomp are the ancient&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Egyptian god Anubis, the Greek ferryman Charon[1] and deities Hermes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and Hecate, the Roman god Mercury, the Norse Valkyries, and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Etruscan deity Vanth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. &quot;Thanatos is the god of death, in fact, he is Death, but he did not ferry souls to the underworld, that was Charon’s job. Thanatos was more like the Reaper, when someone’s time was up he would go to them, touch them, and kill them. he also kept people from returning to life from the underworld (like a life/death border patrol).&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19690" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5895" RevisionGUID="279c8be7-4d2e-4928-896a-bbcca2cc069d" CreationDate="2019-09-11T01:48:24.817" UserId="3341" Comment="added 1097 characters in body" Text="Thanks for the question. Very interesting search along the way to coming to the following info. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; https://www.heroicage.org/issues/15/malcor.php&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Excerpt:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Twelve Companions&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; §18.  As Macqueen (1986, 58) pointed out, &quot;The principle weapon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; employed [from Hittite chariots] was the stabbing spear,&quot; but the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hittite soldiers of the Anatolian hills wielded a slashing-sword,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which was replaced by &quot;a long cutting-weapon with a straight blade by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;the end of the second millennium&quot; (Macqueen 1986, 59–60). The swords&#xD;&#xA;&gt; carried by the twelve runners in Chamber B resemble the short,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; crescent-shaped sword, decorated with animal heads which was carried&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by Hittite warriors in ceremonies rather than in battle (Macqueen&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1986, 59–60). The Hittite axe born by Sarruma has &quot;ribbing round the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shaft-hole [that] is a feature&quot; from, among other places, the northern&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Caucasus area (Macqueen 1986, 61), while the axe's blade &quot;is of a type&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which can be paralleled only in the Caucasus region&quot; (Macqueen 1986,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 61).19 Although the gods carry the swords in this image, recall that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in the texts the swords are embedded.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; §19.  The steppe war god himself was not the celestial Ram, but he was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; represented by the story of the ram, just as Jason can be represented&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by a reference to the Golden Fleece. This raises the possibility that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he was not the sign of Aries but another sign that appeared in the sky&#xD;&#xA;&gt; along with—or at the same time as—Aries. **The twelve figures&#xD;&#xA;&gt; associated with the sword god, then, may have nothing at all to do&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with Underworld deities. Instead, they may represent the twelve signs&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the Zodiac, and the crossroads the Hittites associated with them&#xD;&#xA;&gt; might not be underground at all, but rather in the sky.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Conclusion&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; §20.  **The Hittite version of the Sword in the Stone story** has several&#xD;&#xA;&gt; elements in common with the Arthurian variant. Both feature a sword in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a graveyard. Both swords are associated with a king. The twelve&#xD;&#xA;&gt; runners in the Hittite variant parallel the Twelve Knights of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Round Table in Arthurian tradition. Also, the anvil of the Arthurian&#xD;&#xA;&gt; variant preserves the connection between the forging of iron and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; story of the god who planted a sword in a stone. The tales are clearly&#xD;&#xA;&gt; part of the same tradition, yet, by placing the image of the sword god&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in conjunction with celestial deities at Yazilikaya, the Hittites&#xD;&#xA;&gt; retained an association that the Arthurian variant has lost: the tale&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the Sword in the Stone had something to do with the stars.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. Historical Dictionary of the Hittites By Charles Burney &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Note: Any typos are mine.)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The clearest, most familiar manifestation of the Underworld in Hittite&#xD;&#xA;&gt; religion, or more accurately in the Hurrian cult, occurs in Chamber B&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the Yazilikaya sanctuary outside the city of Hattusa, with the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; remarkable and indeed unique Sword-God, a god in human form emerging&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from the hilt of a dagger, its blade too shortened to be termed a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sword. This has long been recognized as identifiable with Nergal, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; god of the Underworld, one of the Mesopotamian deities imported by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hurrians into Anatolia. From a magical ritual going far to explain the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sword-God of Chamber B at Yazilikaya come the words: “He makes them as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; swords and fixes them in the ground.” In another text “the bronze&#xD;&#xA;&gt; swords of Nergal” and “the twelve gods of the crossroads” are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mentioned together: hence the twelve running gods, not soldiers as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; once supposed, facing the Sword-God and likewise appearing in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; larger Chamber A at Yazilikaya at the rear of the procession….&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19691" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5897" RevisionGUID="98917734-5339-4d3e-9f7c-c68b1c25891d" CreationDate="2019-09-12T16:30:12.683" UserId="3647" Text="As we know in ***Hindu*** mythology there were so much powerful Weapons like **Shudarshan**, **Brhmastra**, **Shabdavedi Ban** etc and Air vehicle like **Pushpak Viman** with vast technologies like nano technology used as compared to today's technology. Also they know how to give life someone after they die.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question is that When and How does those technology ideas were vanished that we became less knowledgeable? Or was there a huge natural calamity happened so all erased from earth and restarted?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19692" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5897" RevisionGUID="98917734-5339-4d3e-9f7c-c68b1c25891d" CreationDate="2019-09-12T16:30:12.683" UserId="3647" Text="Where does ancient technology knowledge gone?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19693" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5897" RevisionGUID="98917734-5339-4d3e-9f7c-c68b1c25891d" CreationDate="2019-09-12T16:30:12.683" UserId="3647" Text="|hindu|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19694" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5898" RevisionGUID="f719f2fb-bafa-478c-804f-1fea3cf70680" CreationDate="2019-09-14T08:46:11.487" UserId="57" Text="The [Nirgul tablet][1] (also known as Cerberus relief) is a Parthian relief carving of the Mesopotamian god [Nergal][2], a three-headed dog and a seated female figure:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![The Nirgul tablet][3]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [Wikipedia][1], the seated female figure may be the pre-Islamic Arabian goddess [Al-Lat][5]. Encyclopaedia Iranica, on the other hand, tells us the goddess is probably the Syrian [Atargatis][6]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The so called “Cerberus relief” shows a god, his consort, and a three headed dog. The god stands frontally, clad in Parthian dress somewhat like that worn by the bronze figure from Šāmī; an eagle perches on his horned diadem (which surely recalls the earlier Mesopotamian horned crown), and snakes spring from his waist and shoulders. In his upraised right hand he holds an axe; in his left, a sword and the leash of the dog. While the triple headed dog is clearly based on the Greek Cerberus, here he identifies the god as the underworld god Nergal. His consort, seated frontally on a throne flanked by griffins, is crowned by an eagle. In her right hand she holds a feather; in her left, the standard, an important Hatran religious symbol. Her footstool is decorated with fish. The standard, the eagle, and the fish probably identify her as Atargatis, the goddess of the Syrian city of Hierapolis. Additional animal attributes are associated with these and other Semitic deities (H. Ingholt, “Parthian Sculptures from Hatra,” Memoirs of the Connecticut Academy of Arts and Sciences 12, New Haven, 1954, pp. 17 33; Ghirshman, Persian Art, p. 87, fig. 98).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/art-in-iran-iv-parthian&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Which one is the more likely candidate, and why? How does either godess relate to Nergal? Are there other candidates? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirgul_tablet&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nergal&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MOxPQ.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ancient_Parthian_relief_carving_of_the_god_Nergal_from_Hatra.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Lat&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atargatis" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19695" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5898" RevisionGUID="f719f2fb-bafa-478c-804f-1fea3cf70680" CreationDate="2019-09-14T08:46:11.487" UserId="57" Text="Who is the female figure in the Nirgul tablet?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19696" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5898" RevisionGUID="f719f2fb-bafa-478c-804f-1fea3cf70680" CreationDate="2019-09-14T08:46:11.487" UserId="57" Text="|mesopotamia|iconography|arabic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19697" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5899" RevisionGUID="2201fda5-ece3-490b-b19b-a834394a415f" CreationDate="2019-09-14T12:18:46.723" UserId="6337" Text="They share one powerful similarity. Charon is a spirit of the underworld and Chiron forsook his immortality and died, ending up in the underworld (unless you accept his transformation into a constellation). Therefore both function as less powerful representatives of death/hades. The similarity in names may well be a coincidence but it is still significant." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19701" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5901" RevisionGUID="d7828560-add2-406f-90ac-b42fcb1ff5b6" CreationDate="2019-09-14T13:47:17.137" UserId="6337" Text="Carl Jung said “The gods have become diseases; Zeus no longer rules Olympus but rather the solar plexus, and produces curious specimens for the doctor's consulting room, or disorders the brains of politicians and journalists who unwittingly let loose psychic epidemics on the world”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;God’s can’t be killed as such and mortal humans can’t increase or decrease a god’s own personal, innate power with physical acts. When forgotten, they merely fall below the threshold of human consciousness and act on humanity via the unconscious as per Jung’s quote above. Your question presupposes a very literal and physical existence for the gods whereas mythology is really allegorical and their true nature is more psychological (or spiritual) - although no less real for being so.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, the story of Pan’s death may well have arisen from a mistranslation of the Adonis ritual where the celebrants re-enact his life and death and shout out at some point, Adonis is dead. This was erroneously translated as Great Pan is dead which seemed to chime with a general belief at the time that the pagan religions were in terminal decline." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19702" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5902" RevisionGUID="0c7d26b1-d4ce-4f57-8216-e69f694911d6" CreationDate="2019-09-15T06:38:41.807" UserId="6339" Text="#Where does ancient technology knowledge gone? How does those technology ideas were vanished ? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ancient technologies you mentioned like Shudarshan Chakra , Brhmastra , 	Pushpak Viman (Pushpak flying chariot) were divine technologies as stated in Hinduism epics and mythology. They were having their respected purpose and owners to whom  these technologies were to be returned after serving the goal.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#Divine Weapon Technology &#xD;&#xA;The underline principle of these divine weapons and technologies  is the  &quot;Tejas&quot;  or the power with which they function. And it is supplied by the respected deity upon which the name  and he function is assigned. For e.g. Varuna Astra , Agni Astra , Narayana Astra , Pashupata Astra etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Normally these astras belongs to their respected deity , like Pashupata astra is owned by god Shiva and his name Pashupati is assigned to the astra  . Each of these deities is having their respected abodes and these divine weapons originally  resides in them. And these  must be returned to their owners in order to safeguard them and to prevent any misuse or before /after the death of the earthly owner. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These weapons  contain enormous amount of energy , so  to posses them a person should have the the capability to  employ and  hold these weapons and to fire them, not only physical but mental and spiritual also. ( i.e. person should behave according righteously  , acting in accord with divine or moral law and mut have  sufficient merits. ) These weapons were having their own specific purpose and were employed only for limited amount of time to serve the goal. Below is the quote from Vyasa the author of [**Mahabharata**][1] about the divine weapons . &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; कृतकृत्यानि चास्त्राणि गतान्यदय यथागतम् |&lt;br&gt; पुनरेष्यन्ति ते हस्ते&#xD;&#xA;&gt; यदा कालो भविष्यति ||35 ||&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thy weapons, having achieved success, have gone away to the place they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; came from. They will, again, come into thy hands when the Time for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their coming approaches.  At the end of Mahabhrata war ,when Pandavas&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were retiring to the himalayas for their final journey. Agni asked&#xD;&#xA;&gt; them to leave the divine weapons along the way.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;At the end of Mahabharata war ,when Pandavas were retiring to the Himalayas for their final journey. Agni asked them to [**leave the divine weapons**][2] along the way. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; O Arjuna, and ye twins of great courage, listen to what I say! Ye&#xD;&#xA;&gt; foremost ones of Kuru’s race, I am the god of fire. The forest of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Khandava was burnt by me, through the puissance of Arjuna and of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Narayana himself. Let your brother Phalguna proceed to the woods after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; casting off Gandiva, that high weapon. He has no longer any need of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; it. That precious discus, which was with the high-souled Krishna, has&#xD;&#xA;&gt; disappeared (from the world). When the time again comes, it will come&#xD;&#xA;&gt; back into his hands. This foremost of bows, Gandiva, was procured by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; me from Varuna for the use of Partha. Let it be made over to Varuna&#xD;&#xA;&gt; himself.’&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From  the above it's clear that the divine chariots were also originally owned by respected deities and belongs to them. And must be handed down to their original owners afterwards. &#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Below is the quote from an PDF article [**DIVINE WEAPONS AND TEJAS IN THE TWO INDIAN EPICS**][3] written by  JARROD L. WHITAKER. PAGE 105. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the prime reasons of disappearance  or withdrawal of  these technologies from the earth is the age of kali or kaliyuga , which is believed to be started when Krishna (avatara of Vishnu) left the earth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thus, power (bala), intuition (buddhi), tejas, and foresight&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (pratipatti) all decline due to a change in time (kala  , yuga), and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this consequently causes a loss in the potential life expectancy (ayus&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  ) of humans. The Sanskrit word sakti ´ or “energy” is employed in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the second passage as a general word for all energy-substances.102 The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; epic authors are suggesting that in the world in which they live, Kali&#xD;&#xA;&gt; yuga, no one can own or employ divine weapons of the calibre portrayed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in Dvapara yuga  . This is because of a decline in the potential&#xD;&#xA;&gt; amount of tejas any given individual can acquire.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The original purpose of these technologies were to again establish the degrading dharma on the earth. these technologies were brought on earth by divine will in order to assist the process. So basically these technologies mainly were active and  used  for  limited time and when there purpose is achieved these were sent to their original place , where these technologies were kept to be brought again in times to come for the good of mankind in future. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the ancient technologies you mentioned like flying aeroplanes , various weapons of destruction were operational using divine energy or the Teja of the deity. and were returned to their original owner  after serving their purpose here on earth in the state of the Tejas (divine energy) and there physical form.   &#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But not all the technologies were divine ,  [**some technologies**][4] mentioned in epics of Hinduism are still present in its modern form. While the technologies like Catapults ,  canons , guns etc.  mentioned in ancient scriptures are present in it's modern form. Also many of the ancient texts were lost in the course of time. In modern times there is a lack of Sanskrit scholars who will translate many works which are still not been translated to revel the ancient technologies and their general use. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m16/m16008.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m17/m17001.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.safarmer.com/Indo-Eurasian/Whitaker.2000.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/26350/mentioning-of-firearms-or-cannons-in-hinduism-scriptures" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19703" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5898" RevisionGUID="1cd0c45a-297d-4d0c-b802-f4b4c2b0800c" CreationDate="2019-09-15T14:37:39.510" UserId="57" Comment="Unfortunately ISIS destroyed the tablet in 2015" Text="The [Nirgul tablet][1] (also known as Cerberus relief) was a Parthian relief carving of the Mesopotamian god [Nergal][2], a three-headed dog and a seated female figure:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![The Nirgul tablet][3]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [Wikipedia][1], the seated female figure may be the pre-Islamic Arabian goddess [Al-Lat][5]. Encyclopaedia Iranica, on the other hand, tells us the goddess is probably the Syrian [Atargatis][6]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The so called “Cerberus relief” shows a god, his consort, and a three headed dog. The god stands frontally, clad in Parthian dress somewhat like that worn by the bronze figure from Šāmī; an eagle perches on his horned diadem (which surely recalls the earlier Mesopotamian horned crown), and snakes spring from his waist and shoulders. In his upraised right hand he holds an axe; in his left, a sword and the leash of the dog. While the triple headed dog is clearly based on the Greek Cerberus, here he identifies the god as the underworld god Nergal. His consort, seated frontally on a throne flanked by griffins, is crowned by an eagle. In her right hand she holds a feather; in her left, the standard, an important Hatran religious symbol. Her footstool is decorated with fish. The standard, the eagle, and the fish probably identify her as Atargatis, the goddess of the Syrian city of Hierapolis. Additional animal attributes are associated with these and other Semitic deities (H. Ingholt, “Parthian Sculptures from Hatra,” Memoirs of the Connecticut Academy of Arts and Sciences 12, New Haven, 1954, pp. 17 33; Ghirshman, Persian Art, p. 87, fig. 98).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/art-in-iran-iv-parthian&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Which one is the more likely candidate, and why? How does either godess relate to Nergal? Are there other candidates? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirgul_tablet&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nergal&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MOxPQ.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ancient_Parthian_relief_carving_of_the_god_Nergal_from_Hatra.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Lat&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atargatis" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19705" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5903" RevisionGUID="00f84467-f708-4eb7-b474-f1f58fd577d7" CreationDate="2019-09-16T23:11:49.647" UserId="57" Text="Mika Waltari's excellent historical novel *The Egyptian*, set in Ancient Egypt during the reign of [Pharaoh Akhenaten][2]&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;, features a bull-headed sea serpent Cretan god. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here's a quick summary of the time Sinuhe, the novel's protagonist, spends in Minoan Crete&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;! Minea has grown up with the mission to sacrifice herself as a virgin to the local bull god who lives in a mountain cave at the sea. Sinuhe is horrified by this and fears that he will not see Minea again. In the evening before Minea should enter the mountain cave, they marry each other unofficially. A while after Minea has been escorted into the mountain cave, Sinuhe enters the cave to search for Minea. He finds her dead body and the remains of the Cretan god (described as a bull-headed sea serpent), and realises that she has been killed by the god's high priest Minotaurus to prevent Minea from returning and tell the god is dead. Sinuhe loses his mind from grief, but Kaptah finally succeeds in calming him down and convinces him to realize that it's best to move on and return to Syria. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I wonder if this Cretan [Ophiotauros][3] has any basis in ancient legends, or if it's entirely Waltari's invention.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; Of [Atenism][4] fame.&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; Wikipedia contributors. (2019, September 8). The Egyptian. In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 22:51, September 16, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Egyptian&amp;oldid=914637948 &lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhenaten&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.theoi.com/Ther/TaurosOphis.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atenism" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19706" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5903" RevisionGUID="00f84467-f708-4eb7-b474-f1f58fd577d7" CreationDate="2019-09-16T23:11:49.647" UserId="57" Text="Is there an ancient basis for the Cretan bull-headed sea serpent god in Mika Waltari's The Egyptian?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19707" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5903" RevisionGUID="00f84467-f708-4eb7-b474-f1f58fd577d7" CreationDate="2019-09-16T23:11:49.647" UserId="57" Text="|greek|myth-identification|mythical-creatures|minoan|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19708" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5898" RevisionGUID="42edfc54-5f1e-4156-9ea0-be7676c8d67b" CreationDate="2019-09-16T23:27:00.907" UserId="57" Comment="added 565 characters in body" Text="The Nirgul tablet (also known as Cerberus relief) was a Parthian relief carving of the Mesopotamian god [Nergal][2], a three-headed dog and a seated female figure:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![The Nirgul tablet][3]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Wikipedia, which cites Lucinda Dirven's paper *A Goddess with dogs from Hatra*, the seated female figure may be the pre-Islamic Arabian goddess [Al-Lat][5]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The tablet was recovered from a room in the First Temple at the site where it had been encased in a wall. Alongside the figure of Nirgul, a seated female figure is thought to depict the goddess Al-Lat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Wikipedia contributors. (2019, April 28). Nirgul tablet. In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 23:22, September 16, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nirgul_tablet&amp;oldid=894533315 &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Encyclopaedia Iranica, on the other hand, tells us the goddess is probably the Syrian [Atargatis][6]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The so called “Cerberus relief” shows a god, his consort, and a three headed dog. The god stands frontally, clad in Parthian dress somewhat like that worn by the bronze figure from Šāmī; an eagle perches on his horned diadem (which surely recalls the earlier Mesopotamian horned crown), and snakes spring from his waist and shoulders. In his upraised right hand he holds an axe; in his left, a sword and the leash of the dog. While the triple headed dog is clearly based on the Greek Cerberus, here he identifies the god as the underworld god Nergal. His consort, seated frontally on a throne flanked by griffins, is crowned by an eagle. In her right hand she holds a feather; in her left, the standard, an important Hatran religious symbol. Her footstool is decorated with fish. The standard, the eagle, and the fish probably identify her as Atargatis, the goddess of the Syrian city of Hierapolis. Additional animal attributes are associated with these and other Semitic deities (H. Ingholt, “Parthian Sculptures from Hatra,” Memoirs of the Connecticut Academy of Arts and Sciences 12, New Haven, 1954, pp. 17 33; Ghirshman, Persian Art, p. 87, fig. 98).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/art-in-iran-iv-parthian&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's also [Ereshkigal][7], Nergal's consort.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Which one is the more likely candidate, and why? Are there other candidates? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirgul_tablet&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nergal&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MOxPQ.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ancient_Parthian_relief_carving_of_the_god_Nergal_from_Hatra.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Lat&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atargatis&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ereshkigal" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19709" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="3294" RevisionGUID="fdea96a6-0421-449d-89cc-b91189e2a8e1" CreationDate="2019-09-16T23:37:00.383" UserId="57" Comment="90" />
  <row Id="19710" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3294" RevisionGUID="ffc6c57e-2c24-40d5-af0b-bb3e292e567b" CreationDate="2019-09-16T23:39:02.063" UserId="57" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="[Atenism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atenism) was Egypt's state religion during the reign of [Akhenaten](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhenaten). The religion considered [Aten](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aten) - the sun disc - as the supreme and only god, a radical departure from traditional beliefs. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I realize Atenism only lasted for a few years and probably didn't have enough time to provide answers to all fundamental questions.  However, placing the sun as the supreme god immediately raises the question: What happens at night? Where does Aten go? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did Atenism provide an explanation for the absence of the sun disc in the night sky?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19711" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5904" RevisionGUID="c5a784db-2c8a-4d82-83b4-74d16c14a9d9" CreationDate="2019-09-17T18:04:25.167" UserId="5726" Text="Atenism offers a very good example of the exclusivity of presence. We find it in the eternalization of the mystery of the moment of dawn (&amp; dusk), rejoiced by almost all creatures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The religious ideas with which Akhenaten grew up were those of the New Solar Theology. It is to be encountered in hymns and rituals and in the Books of the Netherworld of Dynasty. At its core is the daily course of the Sun, which guarantees the continued existence of the cosmos. The Sun god renews his creation every morning, but he also descends nightly into the netherworld, where his revivifying light wakes the dead to new life in the depths of the Earth. The entire cosmos is dependent upon light and the sight of the god, but this light must be continually regenerated in the darkness; it most overcome dangers and hostile forces whose most powerful embodiment is the great serpent Apopis/Apep/Apophis. These menacing forces are defeated, and the New Solar Theology reflects a deep trust in the reliability of the Sun. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, by identifying the diurnal phase of the daily cycle of the Sun with the universal deity (Aten), Atenism was incapable of dealing with something very important to the Ancient Egyptians: a good afterlife. The nocturnal phase was not thematized. The netherworld and Osiris were left out of the picture, although the Duat was mentioned. The Aten &quot;rested&quot; in the West and as it were immediately &quot;dawned&quot; in the East, from &quot;horizon&quot; to &quot;horizon&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Akhenaten and the Religion of Light by Erik Hornung, translated by David Lorton][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[ancient Egyptian readings by Wim van den Dungen][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Great Hymn to the Aten][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Akhenaten: history, fantasy and ancient Egypt][4]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.nl/books?hl=nl&amp;lr=&amp;id=XwUiuI79nUEC&amp;oi=fnd&amp;pg=PR11&amp;dq=aten%20akhenaten&amp;ots=plYauZly6l&amp;sig=FX2JzzIiKHCvAykPIteJcc5e1v8#v=onepage&amp;q=darkness&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.lulu.com/shop/http://www.lulu.com/shop/wim-van-den-dungen/ancient-egyptian-readings/paperback/product-24237025.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.maat.sofiatopia.org/aten.htm#4.6a&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://books.google.nl/books?hl=nl&amp;lr=&amp;id=XwUiuI79nUEC&amp;oi=fnd&amp;pg=PR11&amp;dq=aten%20akhenaten&amp;ots=plYauZly6l&amp;sig=FX2JzzIiKHCvAykPIteJcc5e1v8" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19712" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5905" RevisionGUID="7adf20cb-d837-4bc8-98a7-f3575a2eeb0f" CreationDate="2019-09-17T23:36:59.553" UserId="3341" Text="https://www.google.com/search?q=atenism,+moon,+night+explanation&amp;safe=active&amp;sxsrf=ACYBGNSVtKH5Gs-kUEf1vHgG73BzF_mJ_w:1568760777963&amp;ei=yWOBXaCdOtG7ggf39IuoCQ&amp;start=20&amp;sa=N&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjgpaGn-djkAhXRneAKHXf6ApU4ChDy0wMIgQE&amp;biw=1366&amp;bih=635&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Note:** URL is the Google search results page - pdf opens for download.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **An Analysis of the Pharaoh Akhenaten's Religious and Philosophical&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Revolution**&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;An honors thesis for the Department of Anthropology &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Laura Taronas Tufts University, 2012.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; p. 16/pdf (p. 14 in article)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;...The third stanza of the Great Hymn discusses the nature of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; world during the nighttime. In this passage, the darkness of night is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; strongly equated with death and in this sense the absence of the Aten&#xD;&#xA;&gt; means the absence of life on earth. According to traditional solar&#xD;&#xA;&gt; theology the sun god would descend into the underworld at night in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; order to care for the deceased. This is in stark contrast with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Akhenaten’s vision of the night, in which the Aten is completely&#xD;&#xA;&gt; absent and the dead are completely overlooked. The Aten does not visit&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the realm of the dead, but instead it simply rests. Therefore, this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stanza of the Great Hymn demonstrates that there is no conception of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the netherworld in the traditional sense within Atenism. It is not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; clear from the Hymn if there exists an underworld at all and if it is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a normal element of death. This segment of the Hymn also introduces&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the idea that the world is structured around what can be viewed with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the human eye. At night when the citizens of the world are asleep they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; possess no cares or desires and “were they robbed of their goods, that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from under their heads, people would not remark it.”39 In this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; example, Akhenaten is suggesting that because the eye does not see the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; event, it is not something that should worry the individual....&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19713" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5905" RevisionGUID="254a0175-cb7c-4ca1-803b-bf5c2105ba1b" CreationDate="2019-09-18T00:07:25.027" UserId="3341" Comment="deleted 231 characters in body" Text="&#xD;&#xA;A different site for the thesis:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://dl.tufts.edu/concern/pdfs/bn999k24g&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **An Analysis of the Pharaoh Akhenaten's Religious and Philosophical&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Revolution**&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;An honors thesis for the Department of Anthropology &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Laura Taronas Tufts University, 2012.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; p. 16/pdf (p. 14 in article)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;...The third stanza of the Great Hymn discusses the nature of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; world during the nighttime. In this passage, the darkness of night is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; strongly equated with death and in this sense the absence of the Aten&#xD;&#xA;&gt; means the absence of life on earth. According to traditional solar&#xD;&#xA;&gt; theology the sun god would descend into the underworld at night in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; order to care for the deceased. This is in stark contrast with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Akhenaten’s vision of the night, in which the Aten is completely&#xD;&#xA;&gt; absent and the dead are completely overlooked. The Aten does not visit&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the realm of the dead, but instead it simply rests. Therefore, this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stanza of the Great Hymn demonstrates that there is no conception of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the netherworld in the traditional sense within Atenism. It is not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; clear from the Hymn if there exists an underworld at all and if it is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a normal element of death. This segment of the Hymn also introduces&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the idea that the world is structured around what can be viewed with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the human eye. At night when the citizens of the world are asleep they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; possess no cares or desires and “were they robbed of their goods, that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from under their heads, people would not remark it.”39 In this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; example, Akhenaten is suggesting that because the eye does not see the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; event, it is not something that should worry the individual....&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19714" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5905" RevisionGUID="b6209b19-5aba-49d7-a88e-078b3e0ddeb2" CreationDate="2019-09-18T02:39:30.800" UserId="3341" Comment="added 1640 characters in body" Text="&#xD;&#xA;https://dl.tufts.edu/concern/pdfs/bn999k24g&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **An Analysis of the Pharaoh Akhenaten's Religious and Philosophical&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Revolution**&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;An honors thesis for the Department of Anthropology &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Laura Taronas Tufts University, 2012.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; p. 16/pdf (p. 14 in article)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;...The third stanza of the Great Hymn discusses the nature of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; world during the nighttime. In this passage, the darkness of night is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; strongly equated with death and in this sense the absence of the Aten&#xD;&#xA;&gt; means the absence of life on earth. According to traditional solar&#xD;&#xA;&gt; theology the sun god would descend into the underworld at night in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; order to care for the deceased. This is in stark contrast with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Akhenaten’s vision of the night, in which the Aten is completely&#xD;&#xA;&gt; absent and the dead are completely overlooked. The Aten does not visit&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the realm of the dead, but instead it simply rests. Therefore, this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stanza of the Great Hymn demonstrates that there is no conception of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the netherworld in the traditional sense within Atenism. It is not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; clear from the Hymn if there exists an underworld at all and if it is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a normal element of death. This segment of the Hymn also introduces&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the idea that the world is structured around what can be viewed with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the human eye. At night when the citizens of the world are asleep they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; possess no cares or desires and “were they robbed of their goods, that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from under their heads, people would not remark it.”39 In this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; example, Akhenaten is suggesting that because the eye does not see the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; event, it is not something that should worry the individual....&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A long time ago, I began reading a comprehensive Gerald Massey site; that is, until I couldn't decide if he was a gifted scholar or a madman. Whichever, he has things to say about Aten that may or may not be of interest:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://cdn.website-editor.net/e4d6563c50794969b714ab70457d9761/files/uploaded/AncientEgyptTheLightOfTheWorld_GMassey.pdf&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Ancient Egypt: The Light of the World by Gerald Massey**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; p. 261 - The “Aten” of the so-called disk-worship was an ancient form of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Har-Makhu, god of the double horizon. This, however, was not a worship&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the solar disk. The disk was but an emblem of the circle made by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aten as the god of both horizons. **His was a compound type of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; godhood, in which the mother was dual with the son who was her child&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on one horizon and her bull or fecundator on the other.** The word&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aten, from At, was an ancient name for the child. Horus-Behutet, god&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the hut or winged disk, we take to have been the earliest form of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aten. This is the solar god who crossed from the horizon west to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; horizon east upon the vulture's wings, which were an emblem of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; motherhood. The “hut” was a dual emblem of the divine infant and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mother as bearer of the child. **As the bird she carried him over the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; intervening void of darkness where the Apap lay in wait.** Thus the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; godhood of Aten consisted of the mother, her child, and the adult male&#xD;&#xA;&gt; or bull of the mother, in a cult which preceded that of the fatherhood&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Atum-Ra. The glory of Aten as the power that is doubled on the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; horizon of the Resurrection was the object of regard in this religion,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not the disk.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19715" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5906" RevisionGUID="c63267d3-929e-4a5f-8e81-d73252b1081d" CreationDate="2019-09-18T03:32:26.393" UserDisplayName="user6252" Text="Monday, Tuedsay, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. How did these get their names? Was it from one religion, or did multiple religions adopt and change them?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know that the Norse named some of these dates after Gods, but which ones, and how were they altered through time?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19716" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5906" RevisionGUID="c63267d3-929e-4a5f-8e81-d73252b1081d" CreationDate="2019-09-18T03:32:26.393" UserDisplayName="user6252" Text="How were the days of the week named?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19717" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5906" RevisionGUID="c63267d3-929e-4a5f-8e81-d73252b1081d" CreationDate="2019-09-18T03:32:26.393" UserDisplayName="user6252" Text="|calendar-dates|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19719" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5904" RevisionGUID="a4c1db38-871a-455d-aab0-564098424f69" CreationDate="2019-09-18T18:51:44.800" UserId="6343" Comment="apital letters" Text="Atenism offers a very good example of the exclusivity of presence. We find it in the eternalization of the mystery of the moment of dawn (&amp; dusk), rejoiced by almost all creatures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The religious ideas with which Akhenaten grew up were those of the New Solar Theology. It is to be encountered in hymns and rituals and in the Books of the Netherworld of Dynasty. At its core is the daily course of The Sun, which guarantees the continued existence of the cosmos. The Sun god renews his creation every morning, but he also descends nightly into the netherworld, where his revivifying light wakes the dead to new life in the depths of The Earth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The entire cosmos is dependent upon light and the sight of the god, but this light must be continually regenerated in the darkness; it must overcome dangers and hostile forces whose most powerful embodiment is the great serpent Apopis/Apep/Apophis. These menacing forces are defeated, and the New Solar Theology reflects a deep trust in the reliability of The Sun. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, by identifying the diurnal phase of the daily cycle of The Sun with the universal deity (Aten), Atenism was incapable of dealing with something very important to the ancient Egyptians: a good afterlife. The nocturnal phase was not thematized. The netherworld and Osiris were left out of the picture, although the Duat was mentioned. The Aten &quot;rested&quot; in the West and as it were immediately &quot;dawned&quot; in the East, from &quot;horizon&quot; to &quot;horizon&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Akhenaten and the Religion of Light by Erik Hornung, translated by David Lorton][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[ancient Egyptian readings by Wim van den Dungen][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Great Hymn to the Aten][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Akhenaten: history, fantasy and ancient Egypt][4]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.nl/books?hl=nl&amp;lr=&amp;id=XwUiuI79nUEC&amp;oi=fnd&amp;pg=PR11&amp;dq=aten%20akhenaten&amp;ots=plYauZly6l&amp;sig=FX2JzzIiKHCvAykPIteJcc5e1v8#v=onepage&amp;q=darkness&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.lulu.com/shop/http://www.lulu.com/shop/wim-van-den-dungen/ancient-egyptian-readings/paperback/product-24237025.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.maat.sofiatopia.org/aten.htm#4.6a&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://books.google.nl/books?hl=nl&amp;lr=&amp;id=XwUiuI79nUEC&amp;oi=fnd&amp;pg=PR11&amp;dq=aten%20akhenaten&amp;ots=plYauZly6l&amp;sig=FX2JzzIiKHCvAykPIteJcc5e1v8" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19720" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5904" RevisionGUID="a4c1db38-871a-455d-aab0-564098424f69" CreationDate="2019-09-18T18:51:44.800" Comment="Proposed by 6343 approved by 5726 edit id of 1756" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19721" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5503" RevisionGUID="38dba1e9-4d90-40f7-a875-f06c808368d1" CreationDate="2019-09-18T19:15:40.117" UserId="6343" Comment="capital and punctuation" Text="While reading [The Rime of the Ancyent Marinere][1] i got interested in the part of the albatross. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;`‘God save thee, ancient Mariner! &#xD;&#xA;From the fiends, that plague thee thus!-- &#xD;&#xA;Why look’st thou so?’--With my cross-bow &#xD;&#xA;I shot the ALBATROSS.&#xD;&#xA;And I had done an hellish thing, &#xD;&#xA;And it would work ’em woe: &#xD;&#xA;For all averred, I had killed the bird &#xD;&#xA;That made the breeze to blow.`&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since I myself have been at sea multiple times for weeks I have heard the albatross story coming back still going strong.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; An albatross flying around a ship in the middle of the ocean was an omen of storms, wind and bad weather to come. &#xD;&#xA;     &#xD;&#xA;&gt; It was also very unlucky to kill it because sailors thought that the souls of deceased sailors inhabited the albatross.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now there are also articles on [wikipedia][2] and [superstitions][3] stating that this was a total [fabrication of Samuel Taylor Coleridge][4] and has only been a superstition since he made it into one?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Today, someone carrying a burden is said to have 'an albatross around their neck', which was the punishment given to the mariner in Coleridge's poem. Thanks to the poem, written in 1797, there is now a widespread belief that sailors actually believed this superstition, because albatrosses were thought to be the souls of departed sailors. But in truth sailors regularly killed and ate these birds, as related by Captain James Cook in the 1770s. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So my question is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did Coleridge use real nautical folklore about the albatross for his poem?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was the albatross being bad luck real nautical mythology/folklore?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.rc.umd.edu/sites/default/RCOldSite/www/rchs/reader/rime1.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailors'_superstitions#Albatross&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://superstitions.biz/Superstitions/Superstition-SHOOTING-THE-ALBATROSS-13-number-crazy.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Taylor_Coleridge" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19722" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5503" RevisionGUID="38dba1e9-4d90-40f7-a875-f06c808368d1" CreationDate="2019-09-18T19:15:40.117" Comment="Proposed by 6343 approved by -1 edit id of 1757" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19723" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5503" RevisionGUID="254a185c-82d1-4104-bfd3-785dfd312efd" CreationDate="2019-09-18T19:15:40.117" UserId="5726" Comment="capital and punctuation" Text="While reading [The Rime of the Ancyent Marinere][1] I got interested in the part of the albatross. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;`‘God save thee, ancient Mariner! &#xD;&#xA;From the fiends, that plague thee thus!-- &#xD;&#xA;Why look’st thou so?’--With my cross-bow &#xD;&#xA;I shot the ALBATROSS.&#xD;&#xA;And I had done an hellish thing, &#xD;&#xA;And it would work ’em woe: &#xD;&#xA;For all averred, I had killed the bird &#xD;&#xA;That made the breeze to blow.`&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since I myself have been at sea multiple times for weeks I have heard the albatross story coming back still going strong.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; An albatross flying around a ship in the middle of the ocean was an omen of storms, wind and bad weather to come. &#xD;&#xA;     &#xD;&#xA;&gt; It was also very unlucky to kill it because sailors thought that the souls of deceased sailors inhabited the albatross.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now there are also articles on [wikipedia][2] and [superstitions][3] stating that this was a total [fabrication of Samuel Taylor Coleridge][4] and has only been a superstition since he made it into one?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Today, someone carrying a burden is said to have 'an albatross around their neck', which was the punishment given to the mariner in Coleridge's poem. Thanks to the poem, written in 1797, there is now a widespread belief that sailors actually believed this superstition, because albatrosses were thought to be the souls of departed sailors. But in truth sailors regularly killed and ate these birds, as related by Captain James Cook in the 1770s. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So my question is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did Coleridge use real nautical folklore about the albatross for his poem?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was the albatross being bad luck real nautical mythology/folklore?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.rc.umd.edu/sites/default/RCOldSite/www/rchs/reader/rime1.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailors'_superstitions#Albatross&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://superstitions.biz/Superstitions/Superstition-SHOOTING-THE-ALBATROSS-13-number-crazy.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Taylor_Coleridge" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19724" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5908" RevisionGUID="4e4b5f5c-5cd9-4960-bef1-873080938a74" CreationDate="2019-09-18T20:07:18.357" UserId="6343" Text="I know gods from the iron and bronze age up till our time but are there any gods back in the day of the hunter gatherers?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19725" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5908" RevisionGUID="4e4b5f5c-5cd9-4960-bef1-873080938a74" CreationDate="2019-09-18T20:07:18.357" UserId="6343" Text="Are there any hunter gatherer gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19726" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5908" RevisionGUID="4e4b5f5c-5cd9-4960-bef1-873080938a74" CreationDate="2019-09-18T20:07:18.357" UserId="6343" Text="|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19727" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5902" RevisionGUID="e3b9a40f-1db3-4d1b-861d-898d75ecf3ad" CreationDate="2019-09-18T22:56:26.693" UserId="6343" Comment="typos and sentencing" Text="#Where does ancient technology knowledge gone? How does those technology ideas were vanished ? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ancient technologies you mentioned like Shudarshan Chakra , Brhmastra , 	Pushpak Viman (Pushpak flying chariot) were divine technologies as stated in Hinduism epics and mythology. They were having their respected purpose and owners to whom these technologies were to be returned after serving their goal.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#Divine Weapon Technology &#xD;&#xA;The underlying principle of these divine weapons and technologies is the  &quot;Tejas&quot; or the power with which they function. And it is supplied by the respected deity upon which the name  and he function is assigned. For e.g. Varuna Astra , Agni Astra , Narayana Astra , Pashupata Astra etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Normally these astras belongs to their respected deity , like Pashupata astra is owned by god Shiva and his name Pashupati is assigned to the astra. Each of these deities is having their respected abodes and these divine weapons originally  resides in them. And these  must be returned to their owners in order to safeguard them and to prevent any misuse or before /after the death of the earthly owner. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These weapons  contain enormous amount of energy , so to posses them a person should have the the capability to employ and hold these weapons and to fire them, not only physical but mental and spiritual also. ( i.e. person should behave according righteously, acting in accord with divine or moral law and mut have  sufficient merits. ) These weapons were having their own specific purpose and were employed only for limited amount of time to serve the goal. Below is the quote from Vyasa the author of [**Mahabharata**][1] about the divine weapons . &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; कृतकृत्यानि चास्त्राणि गतान्यदय यथागतम् |&lt;br&gt; पुनरेष्यन्ति ते हस्ते&#xD;&#xA;&gt; यदा कालो भविष्यति ||35 ||&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thy weapons, having achieved success, have gone away to the place they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; came from. They will, again, come into thy hands when the Time for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their coming approaches.  At the end of Mahabhrata war ,when Pandavas&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were retiring to the himalayas for their final journey. Agni asked&#xD;&#xA;&gt; them to leave the divine weapons along the way.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;At the end of Mahabharata war ,when Pandavas were retiring to the Himalayas for their final journey. Agni asked them to [**leave the divine weapons**][2] along the way. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; O Arjuna, and ye twins of great courage, listen to what I say! Ye&#xD;&#xA;&gt; foremost ones of Kuru’s race, I am the god of fire. The forest of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Khandava was burnt by me, through the puissance of Arjuna and of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Narayana himself. Let your brother Phalguna proceed to the woods after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; casting off Gandiva, that high weapon. He has no longer any need of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; it. That precious discus, which was with the high-souled Krishna, has&#xD;&#xA;&gt; disappeared (from the world). When the time again comes, it will come&#xD;&#xA;&gt; back into his hands. This foremost of bows, Gandiva, was procured by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; me from Varuna for the use of Partha. Let it be made over to Varuna&#xD;&#xA;&gt; himself.’&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From  the above it's clear that the divine chariots were also originally owned by respected deities and belongs to them. And must be handed down to their original owners afterwards. &#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Below is the quote from an PDF article [**DIVINE WEAPONS AND TEJAS IN THE TWO INDIAN EPICS**][3] written by  JARROD L. WHITAKER. PAGE 105. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the prime reasons of disappearance  or withdrawal of  these technologies from the earth is the age of kali or kaliyuga , which is believed to be started when Krishna (avatara of Vishnu) left the earth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thus, power (bala), intuition (buddhi), tejas, and foresight&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (pratipatti) all decline due to a change in time (kala  , yuga), and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this consequently causes a loss in the potential life expectancy (ayus&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  ) of humans. The Sanskrit word sakti ´ or “energy” is employed in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the second passage as a general word for all energy-substances.102 The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; epic authors are suggesting that in the world in which they live, Kali&#xD;&#xA;&gt; yuga, no one can own or employ divine weapons of the calibre portrayed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in Dvapara yuga  . This is because of a decline in the potential&#xD;&#xA;&gt; amount of tejas any given individual can acquire.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The original purpose of these technologies were to again establish the degrading dharma on the earth. these technologies were brought on earth by divine will in order to assist the process. So basically these technologies mainly were active and  used  for  limited time and when there purpose is achieved these were sent to their original place , where these technologies were kept to be brought again in times to come for the good of mankind in future. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the ancient technologies you mentioned like flying aeroplanes , various weapons of destruction were operational using divine energy or the Teja of the deity. and were returned to their original owner  after serving their purpose here on earth in the state of the Tejas (divine energy) and there physical form.   &#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But not all the technologies were divine ,  [**some technologies**][4] mentioned in epics of Hinduism are still present in its modern form. While the technologies like Catapults ,  canons , guns etc.  mentioned in ancient scriptures are present in it's modern form. Also many of the ancient texts were lost in the course of time. In modern times there is a lack of Sanskrit scholars who will translate many works which are still not been translated to revel the ancient technologies and their general use. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m16/m16008.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m17/m17001.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.safarmer.com/Indo-Eurasian/Whitaker.2000.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/26350/mentioning-of-firearms-or-cannons-in-hinduism-scriptures" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19728" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5902" RevisionGUID="e3b9a40f-1db3-4d1b-861d-898d75ecf3ad" CreationDate="2019-09-18T22:56:26.693" Comment="Proposed by 6343 approved by 5726, -1 edit id of 1760" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19729" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5902" RevisionGUID="289fda28-21b5-4c8d-ae84-92a0be81e650" CreationDate="2019-09-18T22:56:26.693" UserId="1317" Comment="typos and sentencing - go big or go home" Text="#Where has ancient technology knowledge gone? How did those technology ideas vanish? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ancient technologies you mentioned like Shudarshan Chakra, Brhmastra, Pushpak Viman (Pushpak flying chariot) were divine technologies as stated in Hinduism epics and mythology. They were having their respected purpose and owners to whom these technologies were to be returned after serving their goal.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#Divine Weapon Technology &#xD;&#xA;The underlying principle of these divine weapons and technologies is the &quot;Tejas&quot; or the power with which they function. And it is supplied by the respected deity upon whom the name and function is assigned. Examples include Varuna Astra, Agni Astra, Narayana Astra, Pashupata Astra, and so on.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Normally these astras belong to their respective deities; for example, Pashupata Astra is owned by god Shiva, and his name Pashupati is assigned to the astra. Each of these deities has an abode, and these divine weapons originally reside in them. And these must be returned to their owners in order to safeguard them and to prevent any misuse or before or after the death of the earthly owner. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These weapons contain enormous amounts of energy, so to possess them a person should have the the capability to employ and hold these weapons and to use them, not only physical, but also mental and spiritual (i.e. a person should behave according righteously, acting in accord with divine or moral law and must have sufficient merit). These weapons each had their own specific purposes, and were employed only for a limited amount of time to serve the goal. Below is the quote from Vyasa the author of [**Mahabharata**][1] about the divine weapons . &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; कृतकृत्यानि चास्त्राणि गतान्यदय यथागतम् |&lt;br&gt; पुनरेष्यन्ति ते हस्ते&#xD;&#xA;&gt; यदा कालो भविष्यति ||35 ||&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thy weapons, having achieved success, have gone away to the place they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; came from. They will, again, come into thy hands when the Time for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their coming approaches.  At the end of Mahabhrata war ,when Pandavas&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were retiring to the himalayas for their final journey. Agni asked&#xD;&#xA;&gt; them to leave the divine weapons along the way.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;At the end of Mahabharata war ,when Pandavas were retiring to the Himalayas for their final journey. Agni asked them to [**leave the divine weapons**][2] along the way. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; O Arjuna, and ye twins of great courage, listen to what I say! Ye&#xD;&#xA;&gt; foremost ones of Kuru’s race, I am the god of fire. The forest of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Khandava was burnt by me, through the puissance of Arjuna and of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Narayana himself. Let your brother Phalguna proceed to the woods after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; casting off Gandiva, that high weapon. He has no longer any need of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; it. That precious discus, which was with the high-souled Krishna, has&#xD;&#xA;&gt; disappeared (from the world). When the time again comes, it will come&#xD;&#xA;&gt; back into his hands. This foremost of bows, Gandiva, was procured by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; me from Varuna for the use of Partha. Let it be made over to Varuna&#xD;&#xA;&gt; himself.’&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the above, it's clear that the divine chariots were also originally owned by respected deities and belong to them, and must be handed back to their original owners afterwards. &#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Below is a quote from a PDF article [**DIVINE WEAPONS AND TEJAS IN THE TWO INDIAN EPICS**][3] written by  JARROD L. WHITAKER. PAGE 105. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the prime reasons of disappearance  or withdrawal of  these technologies from the earth is the age of kali or kaliyuga , which is believed to be started when Krishna (avatara of Vishnu) left the earth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thus, power (bala), intuition (buddhi), tejas, and foresight&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (pratipatti) all decline due to a change in time (kala  , yuga), and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this consequently causes a loss in the potential life expectancy (ayus&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  ) of humans. The Sanskrit word sakti ´ or “energy” is employed in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the second passage as a general word for all energy-substances.102 The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; epic authors are suggesting that in the world in which they live, Kali&#xD;&#xA;&gt; yuga, no one can own or employ divine weapons of the calibre portrayed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in Dvapara yuga  . This is because of a decline in the potential&#xD;&#xA;&gt; amount of tejas any given individual can acquire.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The original purpose of these technologies was to re-establish the degrading dharma on the earth. These technologies were brought on earth by divine will in order to assist the process. So basically these technologies  were mainly active and used for a limited time, and when their purpose was achieved, they were sent back to their original places, where these technologies were kept to be brought again in times to come for the good of mankind in future. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the ancient technologies you mentioned, like flying aeroplanes and various weapons of destruction, were operational using divine energy or the Teja of the deity, and were returned to their original owner after serving their purpose here on earth in the state of the Tejas (divine energy) and their physical forms.   &#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But not all the technologies were divine: [**Some technologies**][4] like catapults, cannons, guns etc. mentioned in the ancient epics of Hinduism are still present in its modern form. Also, many ancient texts were lost in the course of time. In modern times there is a lack of Sanskrit scholars who can translate these works, so many works have still not been translated to reveal the ancient technologies and their general use. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m16/m16008.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m17/m17001.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.safarmer.com/Indo-Eurasian/Whitaker.2000.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/26350/mentioning-of-firearms-or-cannons-in-hinduism-scriptures" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19730" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5906" RevisionGUID="a107a165-0aef-4736-b93c-fcca8d73207c" CreationDate="2019-09-18T22:56:38.410" UserId="6343" Comment="typo fixes" Text="Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. How did these get their names? Was it from one religion, or did multiple religions adopt and change them?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know that the Norse named some of these dates after their Gods, but which ones, and how were they altered through time?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19731" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5906" RevisionGUID="a107a165-0aef-4736-b93c-fcca8d73207c" CreationDate="2019-09-18T22:56:38.410" Comment="Proposed by 6343 approved by 5726, 1317 edit id of 1759" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19732" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5897" RevisionGUID="ea52d835-56c8-4029-8438-279e1b48c1af" CreationDate="2019-09-18T22:59:46.997" UserId="6343" Comment="captital letters" Text="As we know in ***Hindu*** mythology there were so many powerful Weapons like the **Shudarshan**, **Brhmastra**, **Shabdavedi Ban** etc and Air vehicle like **Pushpak Viman** with vast technologies like nano technology used as compared to today's technology. Also they know how to resurrect someone after they die.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question is that when and how those technology ideas vanished and that they became less knowledgeable? Or was there a huge natural calamity that happened so all was erased from The Earth and restarted?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19733" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5897" RevisionGUID="ea52d835-56c8-4029-8438-279e1b48c1af" CreationDate="2019-09-18T22:59:46.997" Comment="Proposed by 6343 approved by 5726, -1 edit id of 1758" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19734" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5897" RevisionGUID="9e032c88-0bc9-4a2d-8d21-6f48234daf9c" CreationDate="2019-09-18T22:59:46.997" UserId="1317" Comment="captital letters + grammar" Text="As we know in ***Hindu*** mythology there were so many powerful Weapons like the **Shudarshan**, **Brhmastra**, **Shabdavedi Ban** etc and an air vehicle like **Pushpak Viman**, and vast technologies like nano technology comparable to today's technology. Also, they know how to resurrect someone after they die.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question is: When and how did those technology ideas vanish, and become less known? Or was there a huge natural calamity that happened so that all was erased from The Earth and restarted?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19735" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5893" RevisionGUID="18235511-dc8d-4665-8aee-9f715ec15460" CreationDate="2019-09-18T23:00:35.033" UserId="6343" Comment="minor corrections" Text="Can you help me identify this fanged grotesque that I saw in [The Wicker Man (movie)][1]? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am guessing it is some sort of Celtic mythical element? I have also seen it used elsewhere as door knocks or gargoyle downspouts but can't remember where. Does it have its own name, like the *griffin* being a mythical beast with a lion's body and an eagles' head?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wicker_Man&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/lha7y.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19736" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5893" RevisionGUID="18235511-dc8d-4665-8aee-9f715ec15460" CreationDate="2019-09-18T23:00:35.033" Comment="Proposed by 6343 approved by 5726, -1 edit id of 1761" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19737" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5893" RevisionGUID="6cea01e1-132a-41c3-94aa-e40d7b1f7056" CreationDate="2019-09-18T23:00:35.033" UserId="1317" Comment="minor corrections" Text="Can you help me identify this fanged grotesque that I saw in the movie [The Wicker Man][1]? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am guessing it is some sort of Celtic mythical element? I have also seen it used elsewhere as door knocks or gargoyle downspouts but can't remember where. Does it have its own name, like the *griffin* being a mythical beast with a lion's body and an eagles' head?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wicker_Man&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/lha7y.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19738" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5897" RevisionGUID="9e032c88-0bc9-4a2d-8d21-6f48234daf9c" CreationDate="2019-09-18T22:59:46.997" UserId="1317" Comment="captital letters + grammar" Text="Where has ancient Hindu technology knowledge gone?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19739" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5909" RevisionGUID="f64c1b34-5a6c-4659-bca3-8365cf35f005" CreationDate="2019-09-18T23:15:15.013" UserId="57" Text="I've often read that there are Christian influences in the Prose Edda: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Snorri’s Edda was later nicknamed the 'Younger Edda' because much of it derives from older sources. What those sources were is a matter of speculation. Some researchers believe Snorri based it largely on folkloric oral traditions that he may have heard, while others think he used an elder written Edda. However, experts agree that he did add many of his own details. As a result, he gives readers a more elaborate version of Norse mythology that at times reveals his Christian influence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;https://www.ancient.eu/Edda/&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The euhemerized account of the origins of the Norse pantheon in the prologue  is one example: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  But although the prologue has a primarily narrative function, and the author does not obtrude his own personality into it, he does appear to be trying in it to define his attitude to the mythology he is presenting and to clarify the relationship of the religion implied by the mythological stories in Gylfaginning to his own beliefs and to the Christian culture within which he was writing. Undoubtedly one of his motives for including the prologue, and maybe the chief reason for the use of the framing device itself, was to avoid the criticism that his stories were dangerous to orthodoxy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Faulkes, Anthony (1985). &quot;Pagan Sympathy: Attitudes to Heathendom in the Prologue to Snorra Edda&quot; as collected in Glendinning, R. J. Bessason, Heraldur (Editors). Edda: a Collection of Essays. University of Manitoba Press. ISBN 0-88755-616-7&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But how about the stories themselves? Are there, for example, any notable differences between the stories that appear both in the Prose and the Poetic Edda that reveal Christian influences?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19740" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5909" RevisionGUID="f64c1b34-5a6c-4659-bca3-8365cf35f005" CreationDate="2019-09-18T23:15:15.013" UserId="57" Text="What Christian influences are there in the Prose Edda, besides the prologue?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19741" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5909" RevisionGUID="f64c1b34-5a6c-4659-bca3-8365cf35f005" CreationDate="2019-09-18T23:15:15.013" UserId="57" Text="|norse|comparative|christianity|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19743" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5909" RevisionGUID="10eb18b9-bdc4-4ab2-b2cc-510714f9ac34" CreationDate="2019-09-18T23:21:09.957" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|comparative|christianity|prose-edda|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19745" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="5656" RevisionGUID="deb7c58d-3fc7-4b75-92ca-dbfa6c037dc0" CreationDate="2019-09-18T23:23:27.897" UserId="57" Comment="91" />
  <row Id="19746" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5910" RevisionGUID="7a2f77a9-6fe2-433b-a7c8-5bed8a511fb9" CreationDate="2019-09-19T01:35:34.340" UserId="6167" Text="The short answer is it's hard to know. I'd personally think that the end of Ragnarok, where one man and one woman survive and repopulate the earth, and Heimdall (called The White God in Gylfaginning), becomes the supreme god, mostly because that seems awfully familiar and Christian. Loki's role? Seems rather demonic given he usually acts as a balancer, chaos-bringer and trickster. iirc Norse Mythology is cyclical, to an extent- Tyr was head of the pantheon before Odin, and Odin would have fallen and been replaced as Tyr had been. But then Christianity happened, so... Ragnarok. It's also interesting to note we only get the Ragnarok legend from one place- Iceland. Which was Christianized first of all the places 'Norse' mythology had a foothold.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I realize it's not a great source, but I like the way [this tumblr post][1] sums it up. There's a link to learn more there via a Youtube channel at the bottom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://fruity-pies.tumblr.com/post/182260381884/depresseddepot-fruity-pies-findingasgard" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19747" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5461" RevisionGUID="54ffe7b4-8548-4d61-96e9-f7caacf01b18" CreationDate="2019-09-19T14:57:36.760" UserId="6343" Comment="capitalized i and added punctuation" Text="This question may be a little controversial so try to keep your answers as **academically** as possible. (take an example from @DukeZhou )&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**If on the subject general answers are also accepted**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am familiar with the fact that this happened in pretty much every mythology, but Greek mythology seems to use it a lot. And I was wondering if there was a special reason for this behaviour apart from being the go-to deed for the writers of antiquity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While reading up on some Greek myths I started to notice a recurring pattern in the case of the act of rape.&#xD;&#xA;Is there a reason for the writers in (most) mythologies to resort to rape? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is rape featured so prominently and what is the (if any) hidden meaning behind the rapes? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is the list I put together as defined by Wikipedia:&#xD;&#xA;[list 1][1]. [list 2][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Aethra][3] (mother of [Theseus][4]); was raped by [Poseidon][5]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Antiope][6]; raped by [Zeus][7].&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Apemosyne][8]; raped by [Hermes][9]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Callisto][10]; raped by [Zeus][7].&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Cassandra][11]; raped by [Ajax the Lesser][12], and later forced into&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [concubinage][13] by [Ἀgamémnōn][14].&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Chrysippus][15]; raped by his tutor [Laius][16].&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Demeter][17]; according to an [Arcadian myth][18], [Demeter][17] was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; being pursued by [Poseidon][5] and she changed into a horse to escape&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him. [Poseidon][5], however, transformed himself into a horse and,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after cornering [Demeter][17], raped her, resulting in her giving&#xD;&#xA;&gt; birth to [Despoina][19], a maiden goddess, and [Arion][20], a divine&#xD;&#xA;&gt; horse.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Europa][21]; raped by [Zeus][7] after he abducted her in the form of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a bull.(as seen on the Greek €2 coin)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Ganymede][22], son of [Tros of Dardania][23]; taken up to [Mount&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Olympus][24] by [Zeus][7] in the form of an eagle.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Leda][25], raped by [Zeus][7] in the form of a swan.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The daughters of [Leucippus][26], [Phoebe][27] and [Hilaeira][28],&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were abducted, raped and later married by [Castor and Pollux][29]. In&#xD;&#xA;&gt; return, [Idas][30] and [Lynceus][31], nephews of [Leucippus][26] and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rival suitors, killed [Castor][29]. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Medusa][32]; raped by [Poseidon][5] in Athena's temple.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Odysseus][33]; raped by [Calypso][34] on the island of [Ogygia][35]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [in his seven year stay][36].&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Persephone][37]; raped by [Hades][38] and, in some versions, raped by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her father, [Zeus][7].&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Philomela][39]; raped by her brother-in-law [Tereus][40].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rape_victims_from_ancient_history_and_mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mythological_rape_victims&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aethra_(mother_of_Theseus)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theseus&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poseidon&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiope_of_Thebes&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apemosyne&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callisto_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassandra&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_the_Lesser&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concubinage&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agamemnon&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysippus_of_Elis&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laius&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demeter&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/Despoine.html&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Despoina&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arion&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(consort_of_Zeus)&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganymede_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tros_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Olympus&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leda_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leucippus_of_Messenia&#xD;&#xA;  [27]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebe_of_Messenia&#xD;&#xA;  [28]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilaeira&#xD;&#xA;  [29]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castor_and_Pollux&#xD;&#xA;  [30]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idas&#xD;&#xA;  [31]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynceus_of_Argos&#xD;&#xA;  [32]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medusa&#xD;&#xA;  [33]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odysseus&#xD;&#xA;  [34]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calypso_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [35]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogygia&#xD;&#xA;  [36]: https://www.greekmyths-greekmythology.com/calypso-odysseus-greek-myth/&#xD;&#xA;  [37]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persephone&#xD;&#xA;  [38]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades&#xD;&#xA;  [39]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philomela&#xD;&#xA;  [40]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tereus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19748" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5461" RevisionGUID="54ffe7b4-8548-4d61-96e9-f7caacf01b18" CreationDate="2019-09-19T14:57:36.760" Comment="Proposed by 6343 approved by 5726 edit id of 1762" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19751" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5905" RevisionGUID="3bc06476-499e-4201-98b9-4460b6a49073" CreationDate="2019-09-19T15:46:10.757" UserId="3341" Comment="deleted 224 characters in body" Text="https://dl.tufts.edu/concern/pdfs/bn999k24g&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **An Analysis of the Pharaoh Akhenaten's Religious and Philosophical&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Revolution**&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;An honors thesis for the Department of Anthropology &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Laura Taronas Tufts University, 2012.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; p. 16/pdf (p. 14 in article)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;...The third stanza of the Great Hymn discusses the nature of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; world during the nighttime. In this passage, the darkness of night is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; strongly equated with death and in this sense the absence of the Aten&#xD;&#xA;&gt; means the absence of life on earth. According to traditional solar&#xD;&#xA;&gt; theology the sun god would descend into the underworld at night in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; order to care for the deceased. This is in stark contrast with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Akhenaten’s vision of the night, in which the Aten is completely&#xD;&#xA;&gt; absent and the dead are completely overlooked. The Aten does not visit&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the realm of the dead, but instead it simply rests. Therefore, this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stanza of the Great Hymn demonstrates that there is no conception of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the netherworld in the traditional sense within Atenism. It is not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; clear from the Hymn if there exists an underworld at all and if it is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a normal element of death. This segment of the Hymn also introduces&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the idea that the world is structured around what can be viewed with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the human eye. At night when the citizens of the world are asleep they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; possess no cares or desires and “were they robbed of their goods, that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from under their heads, people would not remark it.”39 In this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; example, Akhenaten is suggesting that because the eye does not see the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; event, it is not something that should worry the individual....&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://cdn.website-editor.net/e4d6563c50794969b714ab70457d9761/files/uploaded/AncientEgyptTheLightOfTheWorld_GMassey.pdf&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Ancient Egypt: The Light of the World by Gerald Massey**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; p. 261 - The “Aten” of the so-called disk-worship was an ancient form of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Har-Makhu, god of the double horizon. This, however, was not a worship&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the solar disk. The disk was but an emblem of the circle made by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aten as the god of both horizons. **His was a compound type of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; godhood, in which the mother was dual with the son who was her child&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on one horizon and her bull or fecundator on the other.** The word&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aten, from At, was an ancient name for the child. Horus-Behutet, god&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the hut or winged disk, we take to have been the earliest form of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aten. This is the solar god who crossed from the horizon west to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; horizon east upon the vulture's wings, which were an emblem of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; motherhood. The “hut” was a dual emblem of the divine infant and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mother as bearer of the child. **As the bird she carried him over the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; intervening void of darkness where the Apap lay in wait.** Thus the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; godhood of Aten consisted of the mother, her child, and the adult male&#xD;&#xA;&gt; or bull of the mother, in a cult which preceded that of the fatherhood&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Atum-Ra. The glory of Aten as the power that is doubled on the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; horizon of the Resurrection was the object of regard in this religion,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not the disk.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19752" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5911" RevisionGUID="3416ea4e-5fcd-4be7-a53d-b58fcbff3772" CreationDate="2019-09-19T16:05:12.003" UserId="57" Text="This is *[Homeric Hymn][1] 14, To the Mother of the Gods*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I prithee, clear-voiced Muse, daughter of mighty Zeus, sing of the mother of all gods and men. She is well-pleased with the sound of rattles and of timbrels, with the voice of flutes and the outcry of wolves and bright-eyed lions, with echoing hills and wooded coombes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And so hail to you in my song and to all goddesses as well!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source:  The Homeric Hymns and Homerica with an English Translation by Hugh G. Evelyn-White. Homeric Hymns. Cambridge, MA.,Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1914.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who is &quot;the mother of all gods and men&quot;? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My first though was Rhea, sister-wife of Kronos and mother to the first generation of Olympians. However Gaia, Rhea's mother and &quot;mother of all, eldest of all beings&quot; according to Homeric Hymn 30, is also a candidate.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeric_Hymns" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19753" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5911" RevisionGUID="3416ea4e-5fcd-4be7-a53d-b58fcbff3772" CreationDate="2019-09-19T16:05:12.003" UserId="57" Text="Who is &quot;the mother of all gods and men&quot; of Homeric Hymn 14?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19754" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5911" RevisionGUID="3416ea4e-5fcd-4be7-a53d-b58fcbff3772" CreationDate="2019-09-19T16:05:12.003" UserId="57" Text="|greek|homeric-hymns|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19755" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1990" RevisionGUID="305a0c2c-5016-4f22-b3bb-b0826b811b23" CreationDate="2019-09-19T16:05:20.983" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|poseidon|homeric-hymns|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19756" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5911" RevisionGUID="63b200d7-ca6c-41ab-bc0f-34b161dd256d" CreationDate="2019-09-19T17:20:25.563" UserId="57" Comment="added 8 characters in body" Text="This is *[Homeric Hymn][1] 14, To the Mother of the Gods*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I prithee, clear-voiced Muse, daughter of mighty Zeus, sing of the mother of all gods and men. She is well-pleased with the sound of rattles and of timbrels, with the voice of flutes and the outcry of wolves and bright-eyed lions, with echoing hills and wooded coombes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And so hail to you in my song and to all goddesses as well!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source:  The Homeric Hymns and Homerica with an English Translation by Hugh G. Evelyn-White. Homeric Hymns. Cambridge, MA.,Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1914.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who is &quot;the mother of all gods and men&quot;? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My first thought was Rhea, sister-wife of Kronos and mother to the first generation of Olympians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However Gaia, Rhea's mother and &quot;mother of all, eldest of all beings&quot; according to Homeric Hymn 30, may also be a candidate.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeric_Hymns" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19757" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5912" RevisionGUID="da3fc74c-a59d-48c0-810c-d52fa1a0fab0" CreationDate="2019-09-19T17:31:28.413" UserId="6339" Text=" According to Wikipedia  We Homo sapiens were  [**Hunter-Gatherers** ][1]some  0.2 million  or 200,000  years ago &#xD;&#xA; But this trait  was even previously employed by Homo erectus some  1.8 million years ago. By definition a hunter gatherer were  nomadic people who live chiefly by hunting and fishing, and harvesting wild food.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In my answer I am using the conclusions drawn by  Hervey C. Peoples  &amp; Pavel Duda &amp;  Frank W. Marlowe in their article [**Hunter-Gatherers and the Origins of Religion.**][2]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;As you have enquired about the Gods from hunter gatherers period. There were no active  high gods or deities as we have today. For e.g. from Hinduism perspective Shiva-Vishnu-Devi , or Greek god's Zeus , Poseidon , Apollo etc. who are morally punishing.  Instead they were following [**Animism**][3]. A way of life that believes in  souls or spirits. These souls or spirits exists  not only in humans, but also in animals, plants, rocks, geographic features such as mountains, rivers and other entities of natural environment like wind , fire , ice , rain etc. According to them all these elements  were holding  the power.  In other words they were following “natural” religions &quot; These natural elements were their gods as we today call a god. Often  these forces or gods of Hunter-Gatherers were having very limited powers were not omniscient ,omnipotent and they do not very much  concerning about human affairs and morality. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Below is a excerpt -: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Our results reflect Tylor’s belief that animism was the earliest and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; most basic trait of religion because it enables humans to think in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; terms of supernatural beings or spirits. Animism is not a religion or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; philosophy, but a feature of human mentality, a byproduct of cognitive&#xD;&#xA;&gt; processes that enable social intelligence, among other capabilities.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is a widespread way of thinking among hunter-gatherers .Animistic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thought is a natural by-product of the human capacity for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; intentionality or “theory of mind mechanism” . This innate cognitive&#xD;&#xA;&gt; trait allows us to attribute a vital force to animate and inanimate&#xD;&#xA;&gt; elements in the environment .Once that vital force is assumed,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; attribution of other human characteristics will follow. Animistic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beliefs are generally adaptive in the environments that prevail in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hunter-gatherer societies  -&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to  the authors the  hunter-gatherers do have  religions . Each hunter gatherer society were having their own belief systems.  It was  reflected in their sacred healing dances and rituals marking life events , early painting etc. And also there were some  similarities among those religions in cosmology, ritual, and belief etc.. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Many hunter gatherer societies have little or no concept of religion&#xD;&#xA;&gt; per se, though a religious dimension often permeates normal activities&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and is continuous with daily life.  Instead, each society focuses on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; maintaining its unique beliefs and culture, along with a sense of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; self-worth and the general health and well-being of the group . Simple&#xD;&#xA;&gt; egalitarian hunter-gatherer groups generally hold fewer religious&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beliefs and participate in less ritual than more hold fewer religious&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beliefs and participate in less ritual than more complex groups. But&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hunter-gatherers do have religion, embodied in . Although there is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; considerable variation in specific religious traits among&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hunter-gatherer societies, a cross-cultural view reveals underlying&#xD;&#xA;&gt; similarities in cosmology, ritual, and belief .These often include&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gods and spirits with limited powers who are typically not omniscient&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and usually lack concern for morality and human affairs&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The authors in their article are mentioning that there is least possibility that the early  hunter-gatherers is having adopted  or accepted any concept of high god or supporting gods as stated below. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Belief in high gods appears to be a rather “stand-alone” phenomenon in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the evolution of hunter-gatherer religion. Prior studies have shown&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that among the four modes of subsistence (hunter-gatherers,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; pastoralists, horticulturalists, and agriculturalists)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hunter-gatherers are least likely to adopt morally punishing active&#xD;&#xA;&gt; high gods, if any high gods at all Early egalitarian hunter-gatherers&#xD;&#xA;&gt; would rarely have acknowledged an active high god and would be the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; least likely to accept or benefit from the supernatural meddling and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; social constraints of deities who would be seen as “high rulers”&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#Conclusion - &#xD;&#xA;Today we in our respected religions believe in afterlife, shamanism, ancestor worship, high god or supreme creator , ancestral spirits and  creator deities etc. Even todays hunter-gatherers include these beliefs   and share the oldest trait of religion i.e. animism.&#xD;&#xA; So most probably all the above concepts and apart from that the concept of creative gods or supreme creator , who remain active in human affairs was not present in ancestral  hunter-gatherer societies, according to the reaserch of the authors. &#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Here is [**PDF link**][4] of the above article -&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter-gatherer&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs12110-016-9260-0&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2Fs12110-016-9260-0.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19758" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5913" RevisionGUID="306d9a40-4b09-4d69-ba1a-20cb4648f8a6" CreationDate="2019-09-19T20:15:24.247" UserId="6338" Text="Many of the tales in my translation from Welsh by Jones and Jones use the phrase “black man”. Is this referring to someone with black hair or someone of African origin?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19759" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5913" RevisionGUID="306d9a40-4b09-4d69-ba1a-20cb4648f8a6" CreationDate="2019-09-19T20:15:24.247" UserId="6338" Text="In the Mabinogion does “black man” mean black haired?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19760" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5913" RevisionGUID="306d9a40-4b09-4d69-ba1a-20cb4648f8a6" CreationDate="2019-09-19T20:15:24.247" UserId="6338" Text="|welsh-triads|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19761" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5857" RevisionGUID="f0821845-0ba9-46c5-a964-63ff5be20e30" CreationDate="2019-09-20T00:03:15.480" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="19762" PostHistoryTypeId="12" PostId="5905" RevisionGUID="0b0d97ba-b0ae-40bf-9f3e-f9e12703991d" CreationDate="2019-09-20T00:04:31.267" UserId="3341" Comment="via Vote" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:3341,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;tblue&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="19763" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3185" RevisionGUID="20a3b3eb-1976-40c3-8620-b6d643baf6ba" CreationDate="2019-09-20T01:01:45.217" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="19764" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5628" RevisionGUID="c727332d-993b-4853-8649-5af40d954958" CreationDate="2019-09-20T03:03:28.480" UserId="2682" Comment="tweaked a detail" Text="**Argos** (and his brother **Pelasgos**)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Apollodorus, Hyginus, and Diodorus Siculus, the first mortal consort of Zeus was a princess named **Niobe, daughter of Phoroneus**. (*This* Niobe is not to be confused with the more famous tragic one who was the daughter of the Lydian king Tantalos [Tantalus]. The Lydian Niobe lived about eight generations after the one in question here.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Long ago the city of Argos had a different name. It had been founded in prehistoric times by the god Inakhos [Inachus], one of the thousands of sons of the Titan Okeanos [Oceanus]. These sons were the rivers of the world, and Inakhos founded a city upon his own body, the River Inakhos, and named the city Inakhos, after himself, also installing himself as its first king and priest. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Inakhos married his own sister Melia, and together they had a son named Phoroneus, who, when he had grown up, Inakhos placed upon the throne in his own stead. Phoroneus renamed the city Phoroneia, after himself. After the Flood in which Zeus sought to destroy humankind, Phoroneus is credited with discovering fire, teaching people to live in cities again and being the first to offer sacrifices to Hera in his city. This Flood, however, would only come in the time of his great-grandchildren, into which time he was still an active leader. More on that below. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Phoroneus had several children, including a son named Apis and a daughter called Niobe. The city of Phoroneia was located on the vast peninsula of southern Greece, and Phoroneus placed this whole peninsula under the rule of Apis, who named the land Apia after himself. Centuries later it was renamed Peloponnesos (by Pelops son of Tantalos, and therefore brother of that *other* Niobe.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meanwhile Apis's sister Niobe became the first mortal woman to be bedded by Zeus, and they had at least one son, called **Argos** [Latinised as *Argus*]. After Apis died Argos became king of Apia, which he renamed Argos after himself. Argos then became the name of both the entire peninsula as well as of the city of Argos which previously was Phoroneia, and prior to that, Inakhos. While the peninsula was later renamed Peloponnesos (when Pelops conquered it), Argos remains the name of the city to this day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Argos on Peloponnesos Map][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus and Niobe also had another son, named **Pelasgos** [Pelasgus]. Argos features way more prominently in connection with their ancestral city so perhaps he was older but we are otherwise not furnished with such information. They could also have been twins. At any rate Pelasgos is alternately said to have been an Autokhthon (born directly out of the Earth).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He was the first king of Pelasgia, the extensive central region of the Apia/Argos/Peloponnesos peninsula, which, true to family tradition, he had named after himself. He was the father of the notoriously impious Lykaon [Lycaon], whom Zeus turned into a wolf. Zeus also consorted with Lykaon's daughter Kallisto ([Callisto] who was therefore Zeus's own great-granddaughter). It was during Lykaon's reign over Pelasgia that Zeus flooded the Earth, and afterwards Arkas [Arcas], the son of Zeus and Kallisto, became king of Pelasgia, which he renamed Arkadia [Arcadia].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like his grandfather Phoroneus, Pelasgos was renowned for early innovations for basic living, inventing the first huts for shelter from the elements, as well as sheepskin garments the style of which the poor in Euboia [Euboea] and Phokis [Phocis] would later still be wearing. He discovered edible acorns, and he taught people to abstain from green leaves, grasses and roots that were not good to eat, particularly the fatally poisonous ones.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the first two sections of *Bibliotheka* [Library] 2.1, Apollodorus says that:    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Argos was the son of Niobe and Zeus (she was the first mortal woman with whom he had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; intercourse). According to Akousilaos, Pelasgos was also their son, and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; inhabitants of Peloponnesos were called Pelasgoi [*Pelasgians*] after him. But&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hesiod says that Pelasgos was an Autokhthon [*&quot;a son of the soil&quot;*]... &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Argos received the kingdom and called Peloponnesos after himself&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Argos; and having married Evadne, daughter of Strymon and Neaira, he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; begat Ekbasos, Peiras, Epidauros, and Kriasos, the last one of these being the  successor to the kingdom.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyginus, writing in Latin, uses the Roman names of the gods and other characters, saying, in *Fabulae* 145:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; From Phoroneus and Cinna were born Apis and Niobe. The latter was the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; first mortal to be embraced by Jupiter [*Zeus*]. She gave birth to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Argus, who gave his name to the city of Argos. Argus and Evadne had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; three children: Criasus, Piranthus and Ecbasus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Diodorus Siculus tells us that the *last* mortal woman with whom Zeus consorted was Alkmene [Alcmene], upon whom he sired the great hero Herakles [Heracles]. He notes the phenomenon that Alkmene was herself a descendant of Niobe in his *Bibliotheka Historika* [Library of History] 4.14.4. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The first mortal woman... with whom Zeus lay was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Niobe, the daughter of Phoroneus, and the last was Alkmene, who, as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mythographers state in their genealogies, was the sixteenth lineal&#xD;&#xA;&gt; descendant from Niobe. It appears, then, that Zeus began to beget&#xD;&#xA;&gt; human beings with the ancestors of this Alkmene and ceased with her;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that is, he stopped with her his intercourse with mortal women, since&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he had no hope that he would beget in after times one who would be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; worthy of his former children and was unwilling to have the better&#xD;&#xA;&gt; followed by the worse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;**Genealogical Sidenotes**&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Nearly a thousand years after the time Alkmene would have lived, however, there was quite a bit of propaganda promoting the notion that Alexandros III of Makedonia, better known in English as Alexander the Great, was the son of Zeus by a mortal queen.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;I am unable to figure out where Diodorus's &quot;mythographers&quot; get their sixteen generations between Niobe and Alkmene. There is indeed a version of her genealogy in which Alkmene is descended from Niobe, through Mantineus son of Lykaon, son of Pelasgos, but, by my count, this gives us only up to ten generations between them, with twelve if we added both Niobe and Alkmene themselves to the number.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Phoroneus had a sister named `Io`, by whom Zeus had a son Epaphos [Epaphus], who grew up to become king of Egypt. He was also an ancestor of Alkmene and Herakles. Even if we were to count &quot;indirect descent&quot; from Niobe to Alkmene through Epaphos, since he was Niobe's cousin, we still get only up to something like thirteen or fourteen generations at absolute maximum.&lt;/sub&gt;    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/dYQ4b.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19765" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="745" RevisionGUID="46e92c6b-2ca2-425c-9ea1-e665bda22f1f" CreationDate="2019-09-20T07:58:28.300" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|athena|ares|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19766" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2967" RevisionGUID="3f8a366e-dd0e-4f5c-ba18-3bd46e13d7af" CreationDate="2019-09-20T07:58:45.003" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|amazons|ares|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19767" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5884" RevisionGUID="9c0379ae-6eb0-4831-b688-60c623866f1e" CreationDate="2019-09-20T07:58:51.357" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|ares|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19768" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="4667" RevisionGUID="b624770c-9128-41ff-a3b9-941cecdf8007" CreationDate="2019-09-20T07:58:57.690" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|aphrodite|ares|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19769" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="53" RevisionGUID="2e7cc96d-974b-4038-b6ae-7dfe1ddf9053" CreationDate="2019-09-20T07:59:06.847" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|roman|ares|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19770" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5914" RevisionGUID="b35fd5e1-f7b9-41fc-b3d8-723ff4591d59" CreationDate="2019-09-20T07:59:20.077" UserId="57" Text="In *[Homeric Hymn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeric_Hymns) 8, to Ares*, we learn that the god of war is allied to [Themis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Themis), the personification of justice and fairness: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ares, exceeding in strength, chariot-rider, golden-helmed, doughty in heart, shield-bearer, Saviour of cities, harnessed in bronze, strong of arm, unwearying, mighty with the spear, O defence of Olympus, father of warlike Victory, ally of Themis, stern governor of the rebellious, leader of righteous men, sceptred King of manliness, who whirl your fiery sphere among the planets in their sevenfold courses through the aether wherein your blazing steeds ever bear you above the third firmament of heaven; hear me, helper of men, giver of dauntless youth! Shed down a kindly ray from above upon my life, and strength of war, that I may be able to drive away bitter cowardice from my head and crush down the deceitful impulses of my soul. Restrain also the keen fury of my heart which provokes me to tread the ways of blood-curdling strife. Rather, O blessed one, give you me boldness to abide within the harmless laws of peace, avoiding strife and hatred and the violent fiends of death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Homeric Hymns and Homerica with an English Translation by Hugh G. Evelyn-White. Homeric Hymns. Cambridge, MA.,Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1914.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I find the relationship curious, justice and fairness are not the first things that spring to mind when thinking about war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is Ares' relationship to Themis?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19771" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5914" RevisionGUID="b35fd5e1-f7b9-41fc-b3d8-723ff4591d59" CreationDate="2019-09-20T07:59:20.077" UserId="57" Text="What is Ares' relationship to Themis?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19772" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5914" RevisionGUID="b35fd5e1-f7b9-41fc-b3d8-723ff4591d59" CreationDate="2019-09-20T07:59:20.077" UserId="57" Text="|greek|ares|homeric-hymns|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19773" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5915" RevisionGUID="4412ff50-626e-4a69-acc7-6f6ffcfb2c66" CreationDate="2019-09-20T12:03:36.770" UserId="6344" Text="&quot;Decifra-me ou te devoro&quot;/&quot;Decipher me or I'll devour you&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Just recently I remembered hearing this phrase when I was kid.. I'm brasilian and I was thinking how bad*ss it is and all and so I decided to research a bit more into it and, to my surprise, Google results for the translated phrase all seemed to be of brasilians repeating it translated, no relevant results at all that seemed to point to source, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some data:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Google results:&#xD;&#xA;&quot;decifra-me ou te devoro&quot; - &quot;About 47,300 results&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;decifra-me ou devoro-te&quot; - &quot;About 29,500 results&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;decipher me or i will devour you&quot; - &quot;About 510 results&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;decipher me or I devour you&quot; - &quot;About 115 results&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So it seems really prevalent, this appears on scientific papers, books, it's cited by journalists, etc. Is this a borrowed phrase? Did it just slip into Brazil consciousness? Is there a different translation that'd actually point to a source? I'm spooked." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19774" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5915" RevisionGUID="4412ff50-626e-4a69-acc7-6f6ffcfb2c66" CreationDate="2019-09-20T12:03:36.770" UserId="6344" Text="&quot;Decipher me or I devour you&quot; has been cited in Brazil for decades as a challenge of the Sphinx. Is it actually made up?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19775" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5915" RevisionGUID="4412ff50-626e-4a69-acc7-6f6ffcfb2c66" CreationDate="2019-09-20T12:03:36.770" UserId="6344" Text="|greek|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19777" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5915" RevisionGUID="749130c1-8a30-4d61-905b-09a4ab1dca54" CreationDate="2019-09-20T15:38:15.390" UserId="6344" Comment="added 6 characters in body" Text="&quot;Decifra-me ou te devoro&quot;/&quot;Decipher me or I'll devour you&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Just recently I remembered hearing this phrase when I was kid.. I'm brasilian and I was thinking how bad*ss it is and all and so I decided to research a bit more into it and, to my surprise, Google results for the translated phrase all seemed to be of brasilians repeating it translated, no relevant results at all that seemed to point to source, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Google results**:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;decifra-me ou te devoro&quot; - &quot;About 47,300 results&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;decifra-me ou devoro-te&quot; - &quot;About 29,500 results&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;decipher me or i will devour you&quot; - &quot;About 510 results&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;decipher me or I devour you&quot; - &quot;About 115 results&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So it seems really prevalent, this appears on scientific papers, books, it's cited by journalists, etc. Is this a borrowed phrase? Did it just slip into Brazil consciousness? Is there a different translation that'd actually point to a source? I'm spooked." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19779" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="5461" RevisionGUID="291bf06b-b582-4bd8-b9f0-494ad907d3c6" CreationDate="2019-09-20T17:28:24.783" UserId="5726" Comment="92" />
  <row Id="19780" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="5626" RevisionGUID="95f4378d-32fa-49d6-8c30-b01ab36c3835" CreationDate="2019-09-20T17:30:28.353" UserId="5726" Comment="93" />
  <row Id="19782" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5918" RevisionGUID="254094cd-4f9e-48d6-a5aa-b28e079f7e43" CreationDate="2019-09-21T20:27:58.913" UserId="2682" Text="Going by the commonest references in Ancient Greek literature and the closest associations in Ancient Greek religion, the best candidate for this particular hymn's addressee would appear to be Rhea, but specifically as filtered through her identification with the ambiguous Phrygian deity Kybele [Cybele] (or a perhaps pre-Hellenic goddess who would *become* identified as Kybele a couple of centuries after the Homeric Hymns' composition). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The musical and wilderness aspects, together with the lions, of this hymn are signature attributes of Rhea-Kybele, eventually finding their sharpest focus in Nonnus' *Dionysiaca* (see also Orphic Hymn 14, &amp; cf. Orphic Hymn 27). Likely based on such evidence, Theoi.com evidently takes it for granted that the hymn is in honour of this divinity, listing it as one of the &quot;Hymns to the Meter Theon {*Mother of the Gods*}&quot; at the end of its &quot;Rhea-Kybele Myths&quot; webpage series.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This notwithstanding, there is a lot of conflation and syncretism of the most prominent goddesses, i.e. Gaia, Rhea, Demeter, Persephone and Hera, which occurs in Ancient Greek religion, which is expressed in some of its mythology, and which may or may not be a result of the identification of these goddesses, being either important maternal or chthonic figures, with the Great Phrygian Mother, whom the Greeks would call Kybele, but also simply &quot;the Mother of the Gods.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In her 1999 book *In Search of God the Mother: The Cult of Anatolian Cybele* (University of California Press), Lynn Emrich Roller notes (p. 170) that the Derveni Papyrus (Col. 18, Line 7) explicitly says that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ge [Gaia, *&quot;Earth&quot;*] and *Meter* [*&quot;Mother&quot;*] and Rhea and Hera are the same thing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roller goes on to tell us (on pp. 174-175) that&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pindar addresses Demeter as the goddess with resounding cymbals, using&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the imagery of Meter, and the fifth-century B.C. poet Melanippides&#xD;&#xA;&gt; states explicitly that the two goddesses were regarded as identical...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Melanippides says that Demeter and the Mother of the gods are one).&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Derveni Papyrus makes the some claim, stating that Demeter&#xD;&#xA;&gt; received her name *Γῆ Μήτηρ* because she was a fusion of both&#xD;&#xA;&gt; goddesses.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the *Meter* in the earlier Derveni Papyrus reference appears to be equivalent to both the enigmatic &quot;Mother&quot; deity and to the less shadowy goddess Demeter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On pp. 170-171 of her book, while observing the identification of the Phrygian Mother with Gaia, Roller explains why Rhea became the more vivid counterpart to the great Anatolian goddess. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The concept of Mother Earth, however, seems to have been a fairly&#xD;&#xA;&gt; abstract one to the  Greeks. Mother Earth was only rarely represented&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in Greek art, and is usually shown  as a mature woman rising up from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the ground. She was not the goddess with tympanum and lions. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; More concrete is the figure of Rhea, the wife of the Titan Kronos, who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; also figures prominently in Hesiod's *Theogony*...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the mid sixth century B.C., the Greek poet Hipponax equates Kybele,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Anatolian Mother, with Rhea, the Mother of the gods. By the fifth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; century B.C., this syncretism had developed to the point where the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cult figure Meter could be addressed as either Kybele or Rhea: In&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tragedy, both Kybele and Rhea use the tympanum and were at home in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mountain environment.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On pp. 169-170 of Roller's book:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;It has long been recognized that the Greek Meter was a highly&#xD;&#xA;&gt; syncretistic deity,  embodying not only an Anatolian predecessor but&#xD;&#xA;&gt; also traits of a Hellenic or pre-  Hellenic Mother Goddess. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Classical goddess was both *Μήτηρ*, Meter, the Mother, a direct&#xD;&#xA;&gt; transfer from her Phrygian cult name Matar, and also *Μήτηρ θεῶν*, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mother of the gods—that is, of the Olympian pantheon. This dual&#xD;&#xA;&gt; identity caused the Anatolian Mother Goddess to become conflated in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greek literature and cult practice with other Greek mother deities,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; each of which would contribute to her personality and to her identity&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in the perception of both Greeks and Romans. As the Mother of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gods, she was identified with Gaia (Earth) and, more especially, with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Rhea, wife of Kronos and mother of the six original Olympian gods. As&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Meter, the Mother Goddess, she became closely allied with the Greek&#xD;&#xA;&gt; deity who exemplified motherly devotion, Demeter. The fusion was never&#xD;&#xA;&gt; complete, and the constituent deities who formed elements of Meter&#xD;&#xA;&gt; during the Classical period were recognized and often addressed as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; separate entities. Yet the separate elements of Meter's personality&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were no longer distinct either, and the assimilation of Meter with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; other figures such as Gaia, Rhea, and Demeter only underscores how&#xD;&#xA;&gt; widely the syncretism had progressed and how much the character of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Anatolian Mother had come to influence her Hellenic counterparts.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;One aspect of Meter’s identity was as Mother Earth. Earth, Γῆ or Γαῖα&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in Greek, the Mother of all life, was already a potent figure in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hesiod’s *Theogony*. Not only did she symbolize the agricultural&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fertility of the land, but she was also, in Hesiod’s poem, literally&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the progenitor of all beings, divine and human.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With Homeric Hymn 14 pointed at the Phyrgian Matar or to her Greek interpretation of &quot;Kybele,&quot; it would be a short step to saying that the Mother of whom you ask is (mostly) Rhea, but also, sort of, Gaia, but in a way also Demeter, and so on and so forth we go through the various mother-deities of Greek religion, because of how Matar/Kybele ended up refracting into all these goddesses.&#xD;&#xA;   " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19784" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5918" RevisionGUID="5c325f24-332e-4442-9a08-9473027faadb" CreationDate="2019-09-21T22:38:16.937" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected spelling, &amp; tweaked formatting &amp; grammar" Text="Going by the commonest references in Ancient Greek literature and the closest associations in Ancient Greek religion, the best candidate for this particular hymn's addressee would appear to be Rhea, but specifically as filtered through her identification with the ambiguous Phrygian deity Kybele [Cybele] (or a perhaps pre-Hellenic goddess who would *become* identified as Kybele a couple of centuries after the Homeric Hymns' composition). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The musical and wilderness aspects, together with the lions, of this hymn are signature attributes of Rhea-Kybele, eventually finding their sharpest focus in Nonnus' *Dionysiaca* (see also Orphic Hymn 14, &amp; cf. Orphic Hymn 27). Likely based on such evidence, Theoi.com evidently takes it for granted that the hymn is in honour of this divinity, listing it as one of the &quot;Hymns to the Meter Theon {*Mother of the Gods*}&quot; at the end of its &quot;Rhea-Kybele Myths&quot; webpage series.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This notwithstanding, there is a lot of conflation and syncretism of the most prominent goddesses, i.e. Gaia, Rhea, Demeter, Persephone and Hera, which occurs in Ancient Greek religion, which is expressed in some of its mythology, and which may or may not be a result of the identification of these goddesses, being either important maternal or chthonic figures, with the Great Phrygian Mother, whom the Greeks would call Kybele, but also simply &quot;the Mother of the Gods.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In her 1999 book *In Search of God the Mother: The Cult of Anatolian Cybele* (University of California Press), Lynn Emrich Roller notes (p. 170) that the Derveni Papyrus (Col. 18, Line 7) explicitly says that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ge [Gaia, *&quot;Earth&quot;*] and *Meter* [*&quot;Mother&quot;*] and Rhea and Hera are the same thing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roller goes on to tell us (on pp. 174-175) that&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pindar addresses Demeter as the goddess with resounding cymbals, using&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the imagery of Meter, and the fifth-century B.C. poet Melanippides&#xD;&#xA;&gt; states explicitly that the two goddesses were regarded as identical...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Melanippides says that Demeter and the Mother of the gods are one).&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Derveni Papyrus makes the some claim, stating that Demeter&#xD;&#xA;&gt; received her name *Γῆ Μήτηρ* because she was a fusion of both&#xD;&#xA;&gt; goddesses.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the *Meter* in the earlier Derveni Papyrus reference appears to be equivalent to both the enigmatic &quot;Mother&quot; deity and to the less shadowy goddess Demeter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On pp. 170-171 of her book, while observing the identification of the Phrygian Mother with Gaia, Roller explains why Rhea became the more vivid counterpart to the great Anatolian goddess. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The concept of Mother Earth, however, seems to have been a fairly&#xD;&#xA;&gt; abstract one to the  Greeks. Mother Earth was only rarely represented&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in Greek art, and is usually shown  as a mature woman rising up from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the ground. She was not the goddess with tympanum and lions. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; More concrete is the figure of Rhea, the wife of the Titan Kronos, who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; also figures prominently in Hesiod's *Theogony*...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the mid sixth century B.C., the Greek poet Hipponax equates Kybele,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Anatolian Mother, with Rhea, the Mother of the gods. By the fifth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; century B.C., this syncretism had developed to the point where the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cult figure Meter could be addressed as either Kybele or Rhea: In&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tragedy, both Kybele and Rhea use the tympanum and were at home in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mountain environment.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On pp. 169-170 of Roller's book:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;It has long been recognized that the Greek Meter was a highly&#xD;&#xA;&gt; syncretistic deity,  embodying not only an Anatolian predecessor but&#xD;&#xA;&gt; also traits of a Hellenic or pre-  Hellenic Mother Goddess. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Classical goddess was both *Μήτηρ*, Meter, the Mother, a direct&#xD;&#xA;&gt; transfer from her Phrygian cult name Matar, and also *Μήτηρ θεῶν*, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mother of the gods—that is, of the Olympian pantheon. This dual&#xD;&#xA;&gt; identity caused the Anatolian Mother Goddess to become conflated in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greek literature and cult practice with other Greek mother deities,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; each of which would contribute to her personality and to her identity&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in the perception of both Greeks and Romans. As the Mother of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gods, she was identified with Gaia (Earth) and, more especially, with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Rhea, wife of Kronos and mother of the six original Olympian gods. As&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Meter, the Mother Goddess, she became closely allied with the Greek&#xD;&#xA;&gt; deity who exemplified motherly devotion, Demeter. The fusion was never&#xD;&#xA;&gt; complete, and the constituent deities who formed elements of Meter&#xD;&#xA;&gt; during the Classical period were recognized and often addressed as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; separate entities. Yet the separate elements of Meter's personality&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were no longer distinct either, and the assimilation of Meter with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; other figures such as Gaia, Rhea, and Demeter only underscores how&#xD;&#xA;&gt; widely the syncretism had progressed and how much the character of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Anatolian Mother had come to influence her Hellenic counterparts.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;One aspect of Meter’s identity was as Mother Earth. Earth, *Γῆ* or *Γαῖα*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in Greek, the Mother of all life, was already a potent figure in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hesiod’s *Theogony*. Not only did she symbolize the agricultural&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fertility of the land, but she was also, in Hesiod’s poem, literally&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the progenitor of all beings, divine and human.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With Homeric Hymn 14 aimed at the Phrygian Matar or to her Greek interpretation of &quot;Kybele,&quot; it would be a short step to saying that the Mother of whom you ask is (mostly) Rhea, but also, sort of, Gaia, but in a way also Demeter, and so on and so forth we go through the various mother-deities of Greek religion, because of how Matar/Kybele ended up refracting into all these goddesses.&#xD;&#xA;   " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19785" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="5626" RevisionGUID="81b00314-f47c-4d38-b86d-d9fe714d5fbc" CreationDate="2019-09-22T00:28:06.457" UserId="5726" Comment="93" />
  <row Id="19786" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="5461" RevisionGUID="02e2747f-39ae-458f-b340-b5c97a1a9fbd" CreationDate="2019-09-22T00:28:39.307" UserId="5726" Comment="92" />
  <row Id="19787" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5919" RevisionGUID="76e36092-4c08-4ccc-9045-e1ecfb6a6e98" CreationDate="2019-09-22T06:49:28.210" UserId="6354" Text="I understand your question but has it occurred to you that Paul/Saul already knew that the mythos of the Sun of god is celestial to begin with? And are you aware of the many gospels that were already in existence by those we now call the Gnostics, including one titled &quot;The Gospel of the Egyptians&quot;?&#xD;&#xA;You must also take into account that historian scholars are of the opinion that six of Paul's epistles are forgeries and some parts of those attributed to Paul have been to them added interpolations. Ask reasonably, why anyone would need to say that a man was &quot;born of a woman&quot; as if who would in their right mind think otherwise, so that it was necessary for Paul to put such a thing into writing?&#xD;&#xA;In other words, the mythos that Paul is writing is the same celestial mythos as the Egyptian Sun god mythos of Ra and Set." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19788" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5919" RevisionGUID="42a84122-83d6-463f-8e8e-86caba5556b3" CreationDate="2019-09-22T06:59:55.183" UserId="6354" Comment="added 51 characters in body" Text="I understand your question but has it occurred to you that Paul/Saul already knew that the mythos of the Sun of god is celestial to begin with? And are you aware of the many gospels that were already in existence by those we now call the Gnostics, including one titled &quot;The Gospel of the Egyptians&quot;?&#xD;&#xA;You must also take into account that historian scholars are of the opinion that six of Paul's epistles are forgeries and some parts of those attributed to Paul have been to them added interpolations. Ask reasonably, why anyone would need to say that a man was &quot;born of a woman&quot; as if who would in their right mind think otherwise, so that it was necessary for Paul to put such a thing into writing?&#xD;&#xA;In other words, the mythos that Paul is writing is the same celestial mythos as the Egyptian Sun god mythos of Ra and Set all of which takes place above and below the earth." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19789" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5920" RevisionGUID="bd45644f-d14b-4423-a6b5-860f45717998" CreationDate="2019-09-22T20:43:25.513" UserId="2682" Text="**&quot;Athena-ish&quot; Ares?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the mythology, beyond the fact that Ares is a great-nephew of Themis (since she is a sister of his grandparents Kronos [Cronus] and Rhea), the Titan-goddess never interacts with this god. And the Ares in this hymn is indeed so incongruous with the character we do encounter in the mythology as to seem an entirely different personage, as though he has already fully fleshed out into his later, statelier, more domesticated Roman counterpart Mars. For this reason Josho Brouwers of the Ancient World Magazine believes that &quot;it seems unlikely that the poem is very early.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the same way that, at Sparta, Aphrodite was worshipped as Areia, essentially a female version of Ares, here Ares seems to have popped out as a male version of Athena, this goddess typically being the one filling the role that Mars eventually does for the Roman state, as the deity presiding over the intellectual and strategical aspects of war rather than personifying the fury, disorder, ruin and horror accompanying it, as Ares typically does. Just as Athena was also, at Athens, closely enough associated with Ares to also be worshipped as Areia, &quot;Of Ares,&quot; it shouldn't be such a stretch to see, in this hymn, the figure of something like an &quot;Ares Atheneios.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ares in the Sky**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding the words occurring right after the ovation of epithets which include &quot;ally of Themis,&quot; the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica &quot;Ares&quot; article says that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is to be noted, however, that in this little poem he is to some&#xD;&#xA;&gt; extent confounded with the planet named after him (Ares, or Mars).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interpreting this song as addressed to *Areios*, &quot;Of Ares,&quot; i.e. the *planet* Mars, would make a lot of sense of it, if it is in fact fair to understand it as an astrological prayer in which the zodiac sign (whose chariot is drawn across the firmament by &quot;blazing steeds&quot;) is being invoked to grant favourable portents presaging peace rather than war. The light of the star is requested to &quot;Shed down a kindly ray from above upon my life&quot;—positive energy, literally.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The deity who personified the planet Mars was a star-god named Pyroeis, the &quot;Fiery&quot; One, so-called because of the reddish colour of his light. Theoi.com's &quot;Pyroeis&quot; encyclopedia entry follows the Encyclopædia Britannica's interpretation even more expressly, saying of Homeric Hymn 8 that: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ares is here the star Mars.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The hymn is also the only source of an alternate parentage for Nike, the personification and goddess of victory, who here is Ares' daughter. To me it seems quite in order to perceive her here as merely an abstraction, and the mention of paternity to be simply a reference to the idea that Ares, &quot;War&quot; (or rather the *sign* of the *star Areios*?), gives rise to conquest, i.e. Nike.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Other Connections?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The 2011 blog-post &quot;Ares, Dike, and Themis&quot;, from the blog &quot;Aspis of Ares: A Devotional Exploration of Ares, the God of War&quot;, and the 2017 article &quot;Understanding Ares&quot; on *PaganBloggers: Of Magic and Devotion*, in seeking to explain the connection of which you ask, both, incidentally, invoke the myth which gives Athena her title of Areia. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story goes that Ares, either to protect or avenge his daughter the Attikan princess Alkippe [Alcippe], killed Poseidon's son Halirrhothios [Halirrhothius], who had raped (or had attempted to rape) her. Poseidon filed a suit against Ares, whom the other Olympian gods judged in the first ever murder trial, upon the hill in Athens which afterwards would be called Areiopagos [Areopagus], &quot;Ares' Crag.&quot; Ares was acquitted by assembly, and the story is supposed to explain why at this court, from then on, whenever the jury's votes are equally divided, it is assumed that Athena, a silent member of the gathering, has voted in favour of the accused, thus acquitting him. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This seems to imply that the Olympians were themselves equally divided in the verdict against Ares until Athena, presumably the last one (of eleven members?) to vote, broke the deadlock by favouring Ares. And presumably also we are to understand this to have been the right decision. Later on in the same city, in Plato's time, the police of Athens are called &quot;the officers of Ares&quot; (*Laws* 670b). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;PTH, the author of &quot;Ares, Dike, and Themis&quot;, notes also the story about how the mortal king Sisyphos [Sisyphus] once tricked and kidnapped Thanatos, Death himself, who was then rescued from this ignominy by Ares. Based on this, Theoi calls Ares &quot;the policeman of the gods&quot;, and as additional support for the notion, the site also displays an image from [a Classical Attic Red Figure *kantharos*](https://www.theoi.com/Gallery/K4.12.html) (again the region of Athens is in view here) depicting &quot;The criminal Ixion who planned to seduce Hera&quot; being &quot;apprehended by the gods Ares and Hermes.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All these references seem quite tangential to me as far as attempting to elaborate on a link between Ares and Themis. The Titan-goddess's involvement herein, if we can call it such, is inadvertent merely because &quot;justice&quot;—an especially broad and fluid term, especially over the millennia and into the modern era—is her domain. Maybe &quot;Themis&quot; in the hymn simply means &quot;Custom&quot; or &quot;Tradition,&quot; which war has often been employed in order to maintain.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19790" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5920" RevisionGUID="e44986b6-105c-41d9-8f16-a1c1beaf16f6" CreationDate="2019-09-22T22:40:13.613" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; tweaked some details" Text="**&quot;Athena-ish&quot; Ares?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the mythology, beyond the fact that Ares is a great-nephew of Themis (since she is a sister of his grandparents Kronos [Cronus] and Rhea), the Titan-goddess never interacts with this god. And the Ares in this hymn is indeed so incongruous with the character we do encounter in the mythology as to seem an entirely different personage, as though he has already fully fleshed out into his later, statelier, more domesticated Roman counterpart Mars. For this reason Josho Brouwers of the Ancient World Magazine believes that &quot;it seems unlikely that the poem is very early.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the same way that, at Sparta, Aphrodite was worshipped as Areia, essentially a female version of Ares, here Ares seems to have popped out as a male version of Athena, this goddess typically being the one filling the role that Mars eventually does for the Roman state, as the deity presiding over the intellectual and strategical aspects of war rather than personifying the fury, disorder, ruin and horror accompanying it, as Ares typically does. Just as Athena was also, at Athens, closely enough associated with Ares to also be worshipped as Areia, &quot;Of Ares,&quot; it shouldn't be such a stretch to see, in this hymn, the figure of something like an &quot;Ares Atheneios.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ares in the Sky**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding the words occurring right after the ovation of epithets which include &quot;ally of Themis,&quot; the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica &quot;Ares&quot; article says that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is to be noted, however, that in this little poem he is to some&#xD;&#xA;&gt; extent confounded with the planet named after him (Ares, or Mars).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interpreting this song as addressed to *Areios*, &quot;Of Ares,&quot; i.e. the *planet* Mars, would make a lot of sense of it, if it is in fact fair to understand it as an astrological prayer in which the zodiacal ruler (who is borne across the firmament by &quot;blazing steeds&quot;) is being invoked to grant favourable portents presaging peace rather than war. The light of the star is requested to &quot;Shed down a kindly ray from above upon my life&quot;—positive energy, literally.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The deity who personified the planet Mars was a star-god named Pyroeis, the &quot;Fiery&quot; One, so-called because of the reddish colour of his light. Theoi.com's &quot;Pyroeis&quot; encyclopedia entry follows the Encyclopædia Britannica's interpretation even more expressly, saying of Homeric Hymn 8 that: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ares is here the star Mars.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The hymn is also the only source of an alternate parentage for Nike, the personification and goddess of victory, who here is Ares' daughter (whereas in every other instance her parents are the Titan Pallas and the River Styx, she herself being a Titaness, like Themis is). To me it seems quite in order to perceive her here as merely an abstraction, and the mention of paternity to be simply a reference to the idea that Ares, &quot;War&quot; (or rather the *star Areios* and all its symbolic significance?), gives rise to conquest, i.e. Nike.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Other Connections?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The 2011 blog-post &quot;Ares, Dike, and Themis&quot;, from the blog &quot;Aspis of Ares: A Devotional Exploration of Ares, the God of War&quot;, and the 2017 article &quot;Understanding Ares&quot; on *PaganBloggers: Of Magic and Devotion*, in seeking to explain the connection of which you ask, both, incidentally, recall the myth which gives Athena her title of Areia. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story goes that Ares, to either protect or avenge his daughter the Attikan princess Alkippe [Alcippe], killed Poseidon's son Halirrhothios [Halirrhothius], who had raped (or had attempted to rape) her. Poseidon filed a suit against Ares, whom the other Olympian gods judged in the first ever murder trial, upon the hill in Athens which afterwards would be called Areiopagos [Areopagus], &quot;Ares' Crag.&quot; Ares was acquitted by assembly, and the story is supposed to explain why at this court, from then on, whenever the jury's votes are equally divided, it is assumed that Athena, a silent member of the gathering, has voted in favour of the accused, thus acquitting him. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This seems to imply that the Olympians were themselves equally divided in the verdict against Ares until Athena, presumably the last one (of eleven members?) to vote, broke the deadlock by favouring Ares. And presumably also we are to understand this to have been the right decision. Later on in the same city, in Plato's time, the police of Athens are called &quot;the officers of Ares&quot; (*Laws* 670b). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;PTH, the author of &quot;Ares, Dike, and Themis&quot;, notes also the story about how the mortal king Sisyphos [Sisyphus] once tricked and kidnapped Thanatos, Death himself, who was then rescued from this ignominy by Ares. Based on this, Theoi calls Ares &quot;the policeman of the gods&quot;, and as additional support for the notion, the site also displays an image from [a Classical Attic Red Figure *kantharos*](https://www.theoi.com/Gallery/K4.12.html) (again the region of Athens is in view here) depicting &quot;The criminal Ixion who planned to seduce Hera&quot; being &quot;apprehended by the gods Ares and Hermes.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All these allusions seem quite tangential to me as far as attempting to elaborate on a link between Ares and Themis. The Titan-goddess's involvement herein, if we can call it such, is distant and inadvertent merely because &quot;justice&quot;—an especially broad and fluid term, especially over the millennia and into the modern era—is her domain. Maybe &quot;Themis&quot; in the hymn simply means &quot;Custom&quot; or &quot;Tradition,&quot; which war has often been employed in order to maintain.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19791" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5921" RevisionGUID="827ecf1b-ac5d-49c0-ac1a-02c2e8fd1700" CreationDate="2019-09-23T01:40:57.790" UserId="3373" Text="**Egyptian Soul Economy**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Three directive souls: Akh, Ba, Ka&#xD;&#xA;Three Intermediary energies: Ran, Jab (Hati), Shut (Khaibit)&#xD;&#xA;Three executive elements: Sekhem, Sanhu, Nacht (Sat)**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The interpretation and translation is based on Wiesław Bator’s,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; scholarly work Religion of Ancient Egypt: Perspectives from Religious&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Studies (Jagiellonian University Publications: Cracow, 2012)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Akh** (bright, illumined) directs the whole intellectual&#xD;&#xA;sphere of a human being, and contains all his or hers intellectual potential (that may be trained). The hieroglyphic&#xD;&#xA;determinative and logogram of the concept Akh was the&#xD;&#xA;walking bird. This element returned to Yaaru (heavens)&#xD;&#xA;considered the house of Gods and Goddesses, it was this&#xD;&#xA;element that was the ‘messenger’ of the Gods that worked&#xD;&#xA;in accord with the laws of Maat, Akh of the deceased was&#xD;&#xA;identified with Stars across the universe, because Akh was&#xD;&#xA;also the source of all wisdom, the living wrote letters ‘to the&#xD;&#xA;stars’ or to the Akh of their ancestors, leaving them in their&#xD;&#xA;graves, where the statue (tut) of the deceased was erected,&#xD;&#xA;they awaited the reply in their dreams.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ran/Ren** (the name), nefer, it meant “beautiful”; “happy”;&#xD;&#xA;“joyful”; “glorious”; “splendid”. It was the mirroring of&#xD;&#xA;the universal creative word (kheru, medu), the name was&#xD;&#xA;considered a natural link in-between creative soul and&#xD;&#xA;Akh and its passive executive form (Sekhem), but also an&#xD;&#xA;inter-mediary element between the Necher (Gods and Goddesses) and affective-emotional domain of the being, called&#xD;&#xA;“hhekau” (represented in case of human being by triad: Ba,&#xD;&#xA;Yab, Sahh). Name, understood in such a way, was associated&#xD;&#xA;with all governing forces over energy, and thus the physical&#xD;&#xA;world. The power of the name Ren depends on the quality&#xD;&#xA;of Akh of its beholder;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sekhem** was considered the primal, unspoiled form of a&#xD;&#xA;human being – the ideal prototype of his body residing in&#xD;&#xA;the divine sphere of Nerchru. Visually, Sekhem reminded&#xD;&#xA;of earthly body, but it did not have any defects, nor did&#xD;&#xA;it undergo the effects of time. Observing representation&#xD;&#xA;of phenomena of time-less youth in artistic impressions&#xD;&#xA;conjured by Egyptian masters of Sekhem of immortal beings, as they were considered&#xD;&#xA;artistic ideations of the Earthly mirroring of Sekhem. This kind of idealistic portrayals&#xD;&#xA;were considered earthly mirroring of Sekhem and they were given the name Tut, which&#xD;&#xA;were included by some researchers into the fundamental elements of one’s personality. Egyptians did not deny tut (the figure) a form of “life” (Tut Ankh or “living image”)&#xD;&#xA;, but always considered Tut an Earthly substitute of Sekhem. Many researchers sought&#xD;&#xA;in Sekhem some active force, working in an autonomous manner, which might not be&#xD;&#xA;completely accurate, because the same element was equal in a determinative of a standing mummy, which may be found amongst the concepts of other bodies: Sahh and Djet.&#xD;&#xA;Thus, all three elements of human nature belong to the same category of receptive, or&#xD;&#xA;passive forms. This hypothesis is supported by Egyptian mythology, that the Goddess&#xD;&#xA;Sekhmet, of personified Sekhem of the highest being, is seen as a passive executor of the&#xD;&#xA;will of the King of Gods – Atum-Re-Chepri, who, according to the Stone of Shabaka,&#xD;&#xA;is understood as the “heart” and “word” of the panenteistic God Ptah; The above-mentioned elements of the human personality which work in the divine sphere of Necheru&#xD;&#xA;were considered the most perfect prototype of a mortal, thus the numinous mirroring of&#xD;&#xA;his Earthly nature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The next triad of the elements of a human being are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ba, Yab, and Sahh, which belong to the inter-mediating sphere of the&#xD;&#xA;whole being. Here, all weight of afterlife of a human being rests, because it is them that determinate what will one do living&#xD;&#xA;one’s life, and what was the intention of his doings. Thus, they are the main protagonists of the judgment over the dead,&#xD;&#xA;because they are responsible for a human beings conscious actions and submit to the judgment over the dead.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They are as&#xD;&#xA;follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ba:** This element is most closely associated with the understanding of a ‘soul’ in the Western&#xD;&#xA;occidental civilization. Ba may be the reflexive, passionate element, responsible for life choices.&#xD;&#xA;Egyptians held that Ba was a loyal servant, thus a soul of one was his loyal servant (bak). Ba is&#xD;&#xA;described in writing by two different determinatives: the older one is a black stork, the younger&#xD;&#xA;one falcon with a human head. The reflexive soul was thus considered an inseparable companion, which suggests motives and way of acting. Ba was not responsible for creative thought, but&#xD;&#xA;advised how they should be applied, it resided in the “heart” (**yab**), and its inclinations influenced&#xD;&#xA;the active heart (**Hati**). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The heart commanding separate senses and movements decided which of&#xD;&#xA;the Ba-influences to execute, and which one should be rejected. When Ba is recommending inner&#xD;&#xA;tranquillity, moderation, care for oneself and others, or it “persuades Maat”, then it has a chance&#xD;&#xA;of attaining the state of divinity and it awaits a reward in the afterlife. This happy fate met him/her&#xD;&#xA;only when they conducted themselves as above. When the Ba-soul contradicted the order of Maat&#xD;&#xA;and influenced the human being to act against his con-science (co-feeling), or the voice of the&#xD;&#xA;Yab-heart which was inscribed with unfaltering laws and principles stemming from Ren in the&#xD;&#xA;Necheru sphere – then it must have been punished with other elements of the deceased, belonging to the sphere Hhekau, dying in cruel condition in the Underworld; The advices of the soul&#xD;&#xA;might be completely contradicting con-science, and even may put afterlife in doubt, in the scripture ‘Conversation of a suicide with his Ba” we may note a complete contradiction between the&#xD;&#xA;Ba-element and inner consideration of a man. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The soul or **Ba** in this case seem to be a synonym&#xD;&#xA;of sobriety and at all costs it attempts to silence the burdened con-science. The Ba, attached to all&#xD;&#xA;pleasantries of life conjures its image and recommends idleness. Operating on rational arguments&#xD;&#xA;the Ba negates afterlife, just to protect the protagonist from suicide. It knows that it leads to the&#xD;&#xA;extermination of consciousness in the afterlife. To the life in opposition to Maat it portrays a noble death, which is saving from wickedness and assures existence in the afterlife. The con-science&#xD;&#xA;suggests that a person living in accord with Maat has more influence in the world than the living&#xD;&#xA;body, attaining a degree of post-mortem divinity and the ability to conjure miracles. In the light&#xD;&#xA;of Egyptian narrative, the Ba is not only belonging to the human existence, also Gods and animals&#xD;&#xA;possess it. Yet, Gods are not limited to having just one Ba as the ‘rational friend’, the Ba may&#xD;&#xA;undergo transformations. Of course, a Ba belonging to a Deity is of much higher hierarchy than&#xD;&#xA;that of a mortal or an animal, it is higher, perfect, and infallible. In essence, the Deity-Ba is similar&#xD;&#xA;to human Akh, Ba of the divine is a manifestation of Necheru, may inhabit the bodies of many&#xD;&#xA;animals and this fact is the basis of Egyptian zoolatry (for example the Deity Horus, as the God of&#xD;&#xA;Life, may be emanating through all living beings in the positive aspect of their expression).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Yab/Hati**, or ‘heart’ is the main concept of Egyptian anthropology and the key to the active human being, Egyptians believed that that it is the ‘temple and store-house’ of thoughts, and thus&#xD;&#xA;they assigned it a role similar to this that we are assigned to the brain nowadays (it might be said&#xD;&#xA;that the brain and associated cognitive processes and affective states and feelings are modulating the essential heart, thus experiences, and pain, suffering, influences or cleanses the heart alike&#xD;&#xA;to karmic inclinations, when a heart ‘drowns’ in its despair, or becomes alike to stone – different&#xD;&#xA;from detached abiding – it grows cold – but it may not be limited to biochemical physiological&#xD;&#xA;brain functions, it works with the components that give the feeling component authenticity, and&#xD;&#xA;the genius its proper, spiritual function, thus also it might be said that apart from a regular heart&#xD;&#xA;pumping blood through the organism, there is a hidden layer, a spiritual heart and its circulation,&#xD;&#xA;through which all states of being are carried throughout thus some believed that in blood therein&#xD;&#xA;is also contained the vital force of the ‘heart’, it is a violation thus to abuse the blood of one’s ‘heart’,&#xD;&#xA;as it develops a parasitical dependence, and reliance on someone else’s ‘heart’ thus rejecting one’s&#xD;&#xA;own as an independent being). The heart was divided into the passive form (con-science) called&#xD;&#xA;yab, and directive active part (desire, or rather – direction) – hati. As “con-science” the heart&#xD;&#xA;(yab) is never bribed and it may be a witness against the deceased in the world of the dead. Some&#xD;&#xA;researchers believed that “yab” is directed towards the meta-physical worlds, while hati directs&#xD;&#xA;the doing of a human being in the world of the senses, for “hatia” means also “ruler”. It thus also&#xD;&#xA;has in Egyptian texts a function alike to defence-double (ka) controlling the visible physical body.&#xD;&#xA;According to Egyptians they are different in the sense that “hati” is guided by conscious working of&#xD;&#xA;our body, and Ka controls only the physiological functioning of our organism that is not guided by&#xD;&#xA;our will (in essence Yogins of the East, by establishing Hati-Hatia command over Ka, they could&#xD;&#xA;be in charge of the emotional, affective, cognitive and other functions of the mind and body, thus&#xD;&#xA;establishing a seat of consciousness linking it with the ‘true will’ or the higher image) . The “hati”&#xD;&#xA;heart, as a collection of active desires, emotions, also commands the passive form (“body”) related&#xD;&#xA;to the sphere of Hhekau, also called Sahh&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sahh:** &#xD;&#xA;is a passive being of the human being, which is at disposal of the heart and executed&#xD;&#xA;through the meditation of the Sahh(-body) the will of the Ba-soul. It works without the interference of the senses and as a signal to act it is enough to think (emanate or vibrate) a “word”&#xD;&#xA;(any directed thought-form, or act, voice etc.). It may be called “soul-body”, “subtle-body”, or&#xD;&#xA;“emotional body”. Because its determinative is also a standing mummy, a corpse, it is said the&#xD;&#xA;true process of mummification was an attempt at turning a regular body into Sahh (perhaps an&#xD;&#xA;astral double). These concepts, however, are not identical because the mummy is described with&#xD;&#xA;the Egyptian word “Ui” although equipped with identical determinative. In any case Sahh was&#xD;&#xA;the principle tool (and perhaps a protective carrier-shielding) in working of the Ba-soul through&#xD;&#xA;mediation of the heart, and it could take any shapes and infiltrate physical matter. It could also&#xD;&#xA;shape it into proper, visible imaginations; It is her that could morph its being into notions, or&#xD;&#xA;representations of Deities (modern idea of ‘godforms’, ‘masks’ or ‘illusions’, unlike true Deities),&#xD;&#xA;animals, plants, and symbols. It could also change things into another (transmutation, for example modifications on the mental-astral plane, or endowing physical objects with various kinds of&#xD;&#xA;energy – consecrated, or ‘cursed’ objects). That is why Sahh was an element, without which no&#xD;&#xA;magical work could be performed, that was considered obvious and common.&#xD;&#xA;The third sphere of the world, in which a human being played was the physical world, called nachtu. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**There are three functional elements here: directing – Ka, intermediary (Khaibit, Shu) and executive (Djet), from all listed elements of personality only the last one is captured in a sensual way, khaibit (shadow-being) is a delicate substance, and Ka is considered an&#xD;&#xA;invisible care-taker sustaining the human body in a good condition.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ka –** It is not commonly agreed, but some speculate that it is closest to the form close to ‘platonic ideas’, others that it is a blind instinctual force without any form of spirituality (it might&#xD;&#xA;happen that in fact it is blind, instinctual at first, but undergoes refinement into the divine,&#xD;&#xA;numinous ‘ideas’ that penetrate this world as interpretable powers, or eternal grammar of&#xD;&#xA;the world, which understood, becomes reflected in it). The main function of Ka is providing&#xD;&#xA;nourishment to the physical body. The female version of Ka, or &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hemsut** proves that this component has a role in sexual differences and regulated physiological needs. Ka has also some&#xD;&#xA;relation with the ancestors and heritability, Ka might look like a double (perhaps an astral&#xD;&#xA;double, representing the image of the person at a given time). Ka most likely was not responsible for psychic and moral traits of a human being. The energy-basis which Ka operates in&#xD;&#xA;, governing the physiology of a human being is khaibit (shut). After death, Ka resided (with&#xD;&#xA;two other elements) in the grave, still having physical needs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Djet:** One of the many names of the physical body. In Egyptian texts there are several synonyms: “kat,&#xD;&#xA;sat, hha”. As the most sensuous of them all and the only fully accessible sensuous element that played&#xD;&#xA;a major function. The most important function of Djet was to execute the commands of “heart” or&#xD;&#xA;hati. In such a way the physical body realised in the world ideas of purely conceptual element – Akh&#xD;&#xA;descending from the divine sphere of Netcheru and through Djet the effects of conscious choice of&#xD;&#xA;man and his decisions which he makes in the sphere of hhekau. No wonder that caring for the body&#xD;&#xA;was a fundamental responsibility for every Egyptian, moreover aversion towards ascesis was on par&#xD;&#xA;with aversion to lack of moderation in submitting to physical lusts. Both stances led, according to&#xD;&#xA;Egyptian wise-man to the destruction of an organism, and thus criminally limited the potential acting of the Ba-soul and divine particle Akh in the physical world. After death, Djet was transformed&#xD;&#xA;into a ui-mummy for Khaibit and Ka to live further" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19792" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5922" RevisionGUID="3399610d-0575-459a-895b-8dba68772819" CreationDate="2019-09-23T03:50:21.133" UserId="6357" Text="Beyla (most often interpreted as &quot;bee&quot;, although &quot;cow&quot; is an alternate possibility) is a servant of Freyr, not Freyja. She is mentioned in Locasenna together with her husband, Freyr's manservant Byggvir (&quot;Barley&quot;...whether he is related to the John Barleycorn of British folksongs is anyone's guess, often suspected but impossible to prove).&#xD;&#xA;   Solsdottir is quite right in choosing the valkyrja as the first option for the woman who becomes a crow, with the secondary possibility of a dís of some sort...one of the dark foreboding (but not necessarily Óðinn-associated) corvid-women of the battlefield described in, for instance, Sturlunga saga, and probably referred to in Reginsmál and the Old High German Erste Merseburger Zauberspruch; the option of a personal dís (female ancestral guardian-spirit, roughly) is also possible.&#xD;&#xA;    Hel is nowhere associated with bees. However...in the Finnish Kalevala, when Lemminkäinen has been killed and chopped up in the river of death (Tuonela), his mother puts his pieces back together...and a bee brings her the drop of honey to restore him to life (there is a very famous painting by Gallen-Kallela showing this scene). Had the vision in the TV series actually come from, say, a saga, one would suspect a possible Finnish influence. Actually I think the main influence for the bees in this case was, &quot;looks cool and spooky&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;    Whether Frigg's activities surrounding the death of Baldr (as per Snorri and possibly referred to indirectly in Völuspá) are in any way related to the tale of Lemminkäinen's mother is questionable, particularly since the protective-magical mother/warrior son dyad is common, both in positive and antagonistic presentations, all throughout Northern culture and literature. &#xD;&#xA;   It may be of interest to know that the Anglo-Saxons, at least - and probably the Norse, since bee husbandry was ancient in both cultures - knew that bees were primarily female; one of the A-S charm spells (for catching a swarm, actually), addresses them as sig-wives, &quot;victorious women&quot; (the &quot;wife&quot; word in A-S just referring to a woman, rather than to a married woman specifically). Many people have tried to make something out of this reference and a possible link to valkyrjur...very tempting, given that several valkyrja-names are feminizations of Óðinn-names (or vice versa; he is also called Valkjósandi, &quot;Chooser of the Slain&quot;, which is a straightforward masculine form of &quot;valkyrja&quot;) and several of his names are sig-compounds. But no one has ever gotten further than, &quot;Gee, this is really interesting, but there's not enough information or other possible connections to do a thing with it&quot;...unless one stretches further afield and goes back to Finland, in which case one might consider the similarity of the life-giving bee in the land of the dead to the occasional role of the valkyrja as resurrector in various forms of the &quot;Everlasting Battle&quot; (which includes the Valhöll-beliefs). But one would be building quite a high castle on extremely shaky ground to do so with current knowledge, I think.&#xD;&#xA;   If one were to see the bee in any Hel-related context, in short, it would have to be by very distant inference...though might in this imaginative case be compared to the use of the cockerel in Saxo's account of Hadding's journey to the land of the dead, and perhaps in the funeral ceremony described by ibn Fadlan, as a beast perhaps embodying the awakening from death to another life. This could lead to many speculations, though those are best reserved at this time for followers of the religion re-exploring the spirituality of the North rather than for historical discussion. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19793" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="3294" RevisionGUID="562cf76e-5819-4078-b58a-ca7576a77be0" CreationDate="2019-09-23T08:25:40.127" UserId="57" Comment="90" />
  <row Id="19794" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4559" RevisionGUID="d709b971-8fe8-4da6-96b1-63f7ff14b038" CreationDate="2019-09-23T13:44:48.127" UserId="57" Comment="removed uneccesary repetion of &quot;Greek goddess of Wisdom&quot;" Text="I remember a myth I read once. It talked of a man who was the only mortal to be taught prophecy, or some form of it, by Athena, Greek goddess of wisdom. But I cannot recall the name of this man. Nor was I told how Athena came to know or learn prophecy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who taught Athena the art of prophecy? Was it taught to Athena by Pallas, Pallas's father Triton, Pallas's mother or some other manner of being?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who was this man that was taught by Athena?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I ask this next question because prophecy is not usually associated with Athena." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19795" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4559" RevisionGUID="d709b971-8fe8-4da6-96b1-63f7ff14b038" CreationDate="2019-09-23T13:44:48.127" UserId="57" Comment="removed uneccesary repetion of &quot;Greek goddess of Wisdom&quot;" Text="Who was the man whom Athena gave the gift of prophecy, and from whom did Athena learn it from?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19797" PostHistoryTypeId="13" PostId="5905" RevisionGUID="448059ca-643c-41c5-b79f-8937b96c6dfd" CreationDate="2019-09-23T16:56:39.120" UserId="3341" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:3341,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;tblue&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="19798" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5922" RevisionGUID="250e596f-028e-4e87-89b9-83b502adaf6e" CreationDate="2019-09-23T17:04:05.797" UserId="5726" Comment="formatting and spacing" Text="Beyla (most often interpreted as &quot;bee&quot;, although &quot;cow&quot; is an alternate possibility) is a servant of Freyr, not Freyja. She is mentioned in Locasenna together with her husband, Freyr's manservant Byggvir (&quot;Barley&quot;...whether he is related to the John Barleycorn of British folksongs is anyone's guess, often suspected but impossible to prove).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;   Solsdottir is quite right in choosing the valkyrja as the first option for the woman who becomes a crow, with the secondary possibility of a dís of some sort...one of the dark foreboding (but not necessarily Óðinn-associated) corvid-women of the battlefield described in, for instance, Sturlunga saga, and probably referred to in Reginsmál and the Old High German Erste Merseburger Zauberspruch; the option of a personal dís (female ancestral guardian-spirit, roughly) is also possible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hel is nowhere associated with bees. However...in the Finnish Kalevala, when Lemminkäinen has been killed and chopped up in the river of death (Tuonela), his mother puts his pieces back together...and a bee brings her the drop of honey to restore him to life (there is a very famous painting by Gallen-Kallela showing this scene). Had the vision in the TV series actually come from, say, a saga, one would suspect a possible Finnish influence. Actually I think the main influence for the bees in this case was, &quot;looks cool and spooky&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whether Frigg's activities surrounding the death of Baldr (as per Snorri and possibly referred to indirectly in Völuspá) are in any way related to the tale of Lemminkäinen's mother is questionable, particularly since the protective-magical mother/warrior son dyad is common, both in positive and antagonistic presentations, all throughout Northern culture and literature. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It may be of interest to know that the Anglo-Saxons, at least - and probably the Norse, since bee husbandry was ancient in both cultures - knew that bees were primarily female; one of the A-S charm spells (for catching a swarm, actually), addresses them as sig-wives, &quot;victorious women&quot; (the &quot;wife&quot; word in A-S just referring to a woman, rather than to a married woman specifically). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Many people have tried to make something out of this reference and a possible link to valkyrjur...very tempting, given that several valkyrja-names are feminizations of Óðinn-names (or vice versa; he is also called Valkjósandi, &quot;Chooser of the Slain&quot;, which is a straightforward masculine form of &quot;valkyrja&quot;) and several of his names are sig-compounds. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But no one has ever gotten further than, &quot;Gee, this is really interesting, but there's not enough information or other possible connections to do a thing with it&quot;...unless one stretches further afield and goes back to Finland, in which case one might consider the similarity of the life-giving bee in the land of the dead to the occasional role of the valkyrja as resurrector in various forms of the &quot;Everlasting Battle&quot; (which includes the Valhöll-beliefs). But one would be building quite a high castle on extremely shaky ground to do so with current knowledge, I think.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;   If one were to see the bee in any Hel-related context, in short, it would have to be by very distant inference...though might in this imaginative case be compared to the use of the cockerel in Saxo's account of Hadding's journey to the land of the dead, and perhaps in the funeral ceremony described by ibn Fadlan, as a beast perhaps embodying the awakening from death to another life. This could lead to many speculations, though those are best reserved at this time for followers of the religion re-exploring the spirituality of the North rather than for historical discussion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19799" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5230" RevisionGUID="ac471655-5f0a-4521-9048-a769bad61d7c" CreationDate="2019-09-23T21:01:15.190" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="19800" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4778" RevisionGUID="072d593f-98cf-4f7b-9b76-9ddfb4844a51" CreationDate="2019-09-23T22:02:13.300" UserId="2682" Comment="adjusted info" Text="Yup, there sure are. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;(It might be a noteworthy consideration that most of them are female deities.)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sea-god **Nereus** and his wife the Oceanid **Doris** were faithful to each other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sea-goddess **Eurybia**, wife of the Titan Creius&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Titaness **Tethys**, wife of her own brother Oceanus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Titaness **Mnemosyne**, Goddess of Memory, who, in Hesiod's *Theogony*, is Zeus's fifth wife &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Erebus**, the primaeval personification of darkness, who was married to the night-goddess Nyx&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hemera**, the primordial personification of daytime, who was married to Aether&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Uranus**, the original sky-god, who was married to his own mother Gaia, the Earth &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;*Sidenote 1:* The poetess Sappho says that Eros was the son of Uranus and Aphrodite, but Theoi.com interprets this as meaning that Aphrodite herself was born pregnant, with Eros in her womb, she herself having formed out of the severed genitalia of Uranus mingling with the salt-foam of the sea. Besides, the more common parentages of Eros do not involve Uranus.&lt;/sup&gt;   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The river-god **Hydaspes**, in India, who was married to the nymph Astris&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Arcadian river-god **Ladon**, who was married to Stymphalis&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Sicilian river-god **Anapus**, who, in Ovid's *Metamorphoses*, is married to the nymph Cyane&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A few Oceanids: the aforementioned sea-goddess Doris; **Electra** (wife of the sea-god Thaumas); **Meliboea** (wife of King Pelasgus of Pelasgia, which later became Arcadia); and the youngest Oceanid **Eidyia** (wife of King Aeetes of Colchis).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Iris**, wife of Zephyrus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hebe**, who married Heracles [Hercules] after he became a god&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Nereid **Thetis**, wife of the Myrmidon king Peleus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Nereid **Iphianassa**, wife of King Enydmion of Elis (though there are different versions of who this king's wife was).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Rhode**, wife of Helios&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Benthesicyme**, who married a king of Aethiopia [Ethiopia] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Nephele**, wife of the Boeotian king Athamas&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Sidenote 2:* Regarding Eros: in Book 32 of his *Dionysiaca*, Nonnus quotes Hera as devising an elaborate fiction by which to deceive Zeus. In it she says that Eros has become infatuated with the Oceanid Rhodope so much so that he has even abandoned his duties as the god of love.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Since Nonnus does not mention Psyche, who, besides that, appears to be a purely allegorical character invented by Apuleius, it is unclear whether Eros is at this point is to be understood as being married. The point might be moot, however, since the business with Rhodope could all be part of Hera's lie.&lt;/sub&gt;       &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Sidenote 3:* Algaia (or Aglaea) shouldn't be on your infidelity examples list, by the way. She was legitimately married to Hephaestus (and was loyal to him).&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19806" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="5911" RevisionGUID="58828da9-50a1-4dc7-b855-40e2d32db59d" CreationDate="2019-09-24T08:50:12.933" UserId="57" Comment="94" />
  <row Id="19807" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5924" RevisionGUID="9c5059b3-79f7-4238-a266-f7a89ef8b05c" CreationDate="2019-09-24T13:43:27.660" UserId="3341" Text="Not sure if this works with the Homeric hymn, but thought it was interesting:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Excerpt from *Natural Genesis* - Gerald Massey&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The genetrix as Ta-urt (Typhon) is designated the 'Mother of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Beginnings,' 'Mother of the Revolutions' (time-cycles), 'Mother of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Fields of Heaven,' and the **'Mother of Gods and Men.'** The priority of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the genetrix as typical producer was plainly enough portrayed by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tesas-Neith, the Great Mother, at Sais. 'I am all that was, and is,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and is to be; no mortal hath lifted my peplum, and the fruit I bore is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Helios.'[2] The title of the goddess as 'Tesas-Neith' signifies the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; self-existing; she who came from herself. The genetrix is celebrated&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as the 'Only One' in the Ritual. 'Glory to thee! Thou art mightier&#xD;&#xA;&gt; than the Gods! The forms of the living souls which are in their places&#xD;&#xA;&gt; give glory to the terrors of thee, their Mother; thou art their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; origin.'[3]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Following this enunciation of the female priority we find that Seb,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the father of the gods, is also designated the 'Youngest of the gods.'&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The earlier gods, Sut (or Sevekh), Shu, Taht, and the first Horus,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were children of the mother alone. They were created before there was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; any father in heaven, there being no fatherhood as yet individdualized&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on earth. [p.457]" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19808" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5924" RevisionGUID="6d92217f-b5b2-461e-828c-d43403c3f3e9" CreationDate="2019-09-24T13:57:47.127" UserId="3341" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="Not sure if this works with the Homeric hymn, but thought it was interesting:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Excerpt from *The Natural Genesis* - Gerald Massey&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The genetrix as Ta-urt (Typhon) is designated the 'Mother of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Beginnings,' 'Mother of the Revolutions' (time-cycles), 'Mother of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Fields of Heaven,' and the **'Mother of Gods and Men.'** The priority of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the genetrix as typical producer was plainly enough portrayed by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tesas-Neith, the Great Mother, at Sais. 'I am all that was, and is,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and is to be; no mortal hath lifted my peplum, and the fruit I bore is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Helios.'[2] The title of the goddess as 'Tesas-Neith' signifies the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; self-existing; she who came from herself. The genetrix is celebrated&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as the 'Only One' in the Ritual. 'Glory to thee! Thou art mightier&#xD;&#xA;&gt; than the Gods! The forms of the living souls which are in their places&#xD;&#xA;&gt; give glory to the terrors of thee, their Mother; thou art their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; origin.'[3]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Following this enunciation of the female priority we find that Seb,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the father of the gods, is also designated the 'Youngest of the gods.'&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The earlier gods, Sut (or Sevekh), Shu, Taht, and the first Horus,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were children of the mother alone. They were created before there was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; any father in heaven, there being no fatherhood as yet individdualized&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on earth. [p.457]" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19809" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5925" RevisionGUID="49afdeb5-de05-4e66-9ff5-31c9d117d35b" CreationDate="2019-09-24T14:21:38.020" UserId="6359" Text="In English (and most germanic languages) the days of the week come mainly from gods from the Germanic faiths. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Monday = Day of the moon&#xD;&#xA; 2. Tuesday = Day of Tyr&#xD;&#xA; 3. Wednesday = Day of Wodan/Odin&#xD;&#xA; 4. Thursday = Day of Thor&#xD;&#xA; 5. Friday = Day of Freya (or perhaps Freyr)&#xD;&#xA; 6. Saturday = Day of Saturn (Roman influence)&#xD;&#xA; 7. Sunday = Day of the Sun" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19810" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5926" RevisionGUID="2e28968e-150f-4705-a681-89d09bb002ea" CreationDate="2019-09-24T15:48:19.340" UserId="5511" Text="The oldest written source for this is Sophocles' &quot;Oedipus Rex&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Oedipus found Thebes plagued by the Sphinx, who put a riddle to all passersby and destroyed those who could not answer. Oedipus solved the riddle, and the Sphinx killed herself. There is no equivalent story in Ancient Egyptian mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Greek text (excerpt)&#xD;&#xA;ἐπεί, φέρ᾽ εἰπέ, ποῦ σὺ μάντις εἶ σαφής;&#xD;&#xA;πῶς οὐκ, ὅθ᾽ ἡ ῥαψῳδὸς ἐνθάδ᾽ ἦν κύων,&#xD;&#xA;ηὔδας τι τοῖσδ᾽ ἀστοῖσιν ἐκλυτήριον;&#xD;&#xA;καίτοι τό γ᾽ αἴνιγμ᾽ οὐχὶ τοὐπιόντος ἦν&#xD;&#xA;ἀνδρὸς διειπεῖν, ἀλλὰ μαντείας ἔδει:&#xD;&#xA;395ἣν οὔτ᾽ ἀπ᾽ οἰωνῶν σὺ προυφάνης ἔχων&#xD;&#xA;οὔτ᾽ ἐκ θεῶν του γνωτόν: ἀλλ᾽ ἐγὼ μολών,&#xD;&#xA;ὁ μηδὲν εἰδὼς Οἰδίπους, ἔπαυσά νιν,&#xD;&#xA;γνώμῃ κυρήσας οὐδ᾽ ἀπ᾽, οἰωνῶν μαθών:&#xD;&#xA;ὃν δὴ σὺ πειρᾷς ἐκβαλεῖν, δοκῶν θρόνοις&#xD;&#xA;400παραστατήσειν τοῖς Κρεοντείοις πέλας.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you are looking for the [original text translated into English](http://johnstoniatexts.x10host.com/sophocles/oedipusthekinghtml.html), it's between lines 390 and 400&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19811" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5927" RevisionGUID="27e10534-4f21-490d-932e-fc3736f5fb3d" CreationDate="2019-09-24T15:57:29.607" UserId="5511" Text="The original text:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Vitr þóttisk valkyrja; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; verar né óru þekkir &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; feimu inni framsóttu, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; es fugls rǫdd kunni. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kvaddi in kverkhvíta &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ok in glæ*hvarma &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hymis hausreyti, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; es sat á horni of bjarga.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The valkyrie thought herself wise; men were not pleasing to the aggressive maid, who understood the voice of the bird. The white-throated and the bright-eyelashed one greeted the skull-picker of Hymir &lt;giant&gt; [RAVEN], which sat on the edge of a cliff.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the [footnotes](https://skaldic.abdn.ac.uk/m.php?p=verse&amp;i=4330&amp;x=0&amp;v=t):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; — [7] hausreyti Hymis ‘the skull-picker of Hymir &lt;giant&gt; [RAVEN]’:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hymir is an adversary of Þórr and subject of the late eddic poem&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hymiskviða (and SnE 2005, 44-5), but on what occasion a raven picked&#xD;&#xA;&gt; flesh from the skull of Hymir is unknown. There may be confusion with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the primeval giant Ymir, from whose skull the sky was made (Vafþr 21,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 28, Vsp 3, Arn Magndr 19/4II; SnE 2005, 10, 11, 12, 15, and 170 on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; confusion between Hymir and Ymir in mss). Kock (NN §1024) accordingly&#xD;&#xA;&gt; emends to Ymis here, also reversing the order of the words for the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sake of the alliteration&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19812" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5928" RevisionGUID="84562cfb-0b69-4078-b1cd-e977b5156593" CreationDate="2019-09-24T16:03:28.913" UserId="5511" Text="It could have a valid basis in actual early oceanic navigation. [The albatros is the bird that can venture the farthest into the open ocean](https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/nature/how-the-unflappable-albatross-can-travel-10000-miles-in-a-single-journey-8945618.html) so it stands to reason they would be the first birds seafarere would actually see before reaching land.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As navigation maps &amp; sextants became more accurate, seafarers no longer had to rely on bird spotting." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19813" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5929" RevisionGUID="e0830b64-8626-4ba2-930b-08f1e5e1dc7b" CreationDate="2019-09-24T16:11:56.107" UserId="5511" Text="There are _some_ depictions you could associate with this in the later dynasties, such as the one below, but the underlying mythology is very different.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the left snake with the Apis bull horns depicts Isisand the right one Serapis, this is how we know it's from the Greek rule period.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Le0ji.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19814" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5930" RevisionGUID="e693f0b6-2c84-4bdd-9378-ff9acad7cdda" CreationDate="2019-09-24T16:28:27.320" UserId="5511" Text="Indo-European deities are generally considered all-knowing (there are exceptions, most commonly knowing the future). There would be little use for an Olympic or Asgardian academy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's very different in Buddhism, in particular in its Chinese form, because it blended with autochtone Chinese mythology. In &quot;Journey to the West&quot;, the Jade Emperor and immortals like the Monkey King actually receive teaching in the Buddhist texts (usually from Quanyin), because they are (only) deities and not yet elightened. This is one of the most popular stories in China, even today, as shown below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Z1dto.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19815" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="5656" RevisionGUID="e59bb930-55e3-4088-961d-706514452ad9" CreationDate="2019-09-25T00:08:41.237" UserId="57" Comment="91" />
  <row Id="19819" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5460" RevisionGUID="98e78cd8-4807-4415-9bf2-92d03a538f12" CreationDate="2019-09-25T20:21:56.517" UserId="5726" Comment="Read the book again" Text="Judging from the context Ohrmazd knows his creatures can be corrupted and that in this way he tricks the evil spirit into accepting a proposed time for their final fight (making sure they are not fighting constantly). Ohrmazd, using his omniscience knew the end result would result in the evil spirit being disabled. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And the evil spirit shouted thus: 'I will not depart, I will not provide assistance for thy creatures, I will not offer praise among thy creatures, and I am not of the same opinion with thee as to good things. I will destroy thy creatures for ever and everlasting; moreover, I will force all thy creatures into disaffection to thee and affection for myself.'  And the explanation thereof is this, that the evil spirit reflected in this manner, that Ohrmazd was helpless as regarded him, therefore He proffers peace; and he did not agree, but bore on even into conflict with Him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;And Ohrmazd spoke thus: 'You are not omniscient and almighty, O evil spirit! so that it is not possible for thee to destroy me, and it is not possible for thee to force my creatures so that they will not return to my possession.'&#xD;&#xA;Then the evil spirit, **unobservant and through ignorance**, was content&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with that agreement; just like two men quarreling together, who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; propose a time thus: Let us appoint such-and-such a day for a fight.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ohrmazd also knew this, through omniscience, that within these nine&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thousand years, for three thousand years everything proceeds by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; will of Ohrmazd, three thousand years there is an intermingling of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wills of Ohrmazd and Ahriman, and the last three thousand years the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; evil spirit is disabled, and they keep the adversary away from the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; creatures.&#xA;&#xA;It might even be because Ohrmazd is convinced that by then he will have made sure Ahriman is not feared anymore by his creations. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19824" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5932" RevisionGUID="7e12077a-7011-40fa-8e17-93437653422c" CreationDate="2019-09-26T08:40:42.107" UserId="2682" Text="Apparently, yes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Bible there are several instances of fire raining down from the sky or &quot;coming from the presence of&quot; God. Some interpret these as lightning-strikes. For the majority of these, however, I have my doubts as to whether they are actually intended to be occurrences of lightning. More on that below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A few statements in the Qur’an make the answer to the Question a lot less ambiguous than it is in the Scriptures of Judaism and Christianity. Perhaps the most explicit comes from **Surah (Chapter) 13**, entitled **Ar-Raʿd, &quot;The Thunder,&quot;** whose English translations by both Arthur John Arberry and M.H. Shakir even use your word of choice: *smite*. In the Shakir version of v. 13:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the thunder declares His glory with His praise, and the angels too for awe of Him;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; and He sends the thunderbolts and smites with them whom He pleases,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; yet they dispute concerning Allah, and He is mighty in prowess.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like the Greek κεραυνός, *keraunós*, (which I discuss further in the section &quot;The Fire of God&quot; below), the Arabic word الصَّوَاعِقَ, *ṣawaʿiq*, translated here as &quot;thunderbolts,&quot; refers to objects containing both thunder and lightning. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding actual events in which such &quot;smiting&quot; occurs, there is at least one story in the Qur’an in which there appears to occur the obliteration of people by the use of lightning in the precise sense in question here. For that, see the last section below.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;POSSIBILITIES&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you have observed, in the Bible, YHWH Sabaoth, commonly translated &quot;the LORD of Hosts,&quot; is closely associated with lightning and its imagery. In those texts, however, there is no especially vivid picture of him using it as a missile akin to the manner of Zeus or similar Eurasian sky-deities. I shall proceed, nonetheless, to examine to what extent I might be wrong about that as follows.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**1 **&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are a few Bible stories involving the use of the word &quot;fire,&quot; which make for fairly ambiguous scenarios, open to interpretation, as far as the Question is concerned. Before we get to those, let's start off with the most vivid and least ambiguous reference that I could find—**Psalm 144.5-7**:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Bend your heavens, O YHWH, and come down:   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Touch the mountains, and they will smoke.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Cast forth lightning, and scatter them**:   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Shoot out your arrows, and destroy them.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Send forth your hand from on high,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Free me, and deliver me from many waters,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; From the hand of the sons of a foreigner.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is not related to an event nor is it about anyone specific. It is also in the same vein of references to God using lightning and thunder to inspire dread or awe. For example, after the Israelites arrive at Mt Sinai after having been emancipated from slavery in Egypt, God enshrouds himself on the summit of the mountain in a cloud of darkness accompanied by thunder and lightning in order to prevent the people from encroaching too far upon holy ground.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nonetheless the psalm here could fairly easily be read as a group of individuals being blasted with lightning, and that this is what scatters them. Is the lightning the same thing as the destroying arrows in v. 6? The Contemporary English Bible translation apparently thinks so, translating the line as: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Use your lightning as arrows to scatter my enemies and make them run&#xD;&#xA;&gt; away.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To me, though, it is likelier that it simply means people freaking out and dispersing after a scary electrical event in the sky. It appears to be of a piece with the descriptions of YHWH as a celestial warrior riding, or enthroned upon, the storm and its clouds (see 2 Samuel 22.15, Psalm 144.6, Wisdom 5.22 &amp; Zechariah 9.14 [&amp; cf. Revelation 4.5]). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**2 **&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is more of a focus on his thunderous voice (such as in Job 37 &amp; 40, &amp; Psalms 77 &amp; 104) rather than on damage inflicted by lightning. This, however, brings us to a second reference, **Job 36.32**, which, speaking of God, says (in the Holman Christian Standard Bible [HCSB]) that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;He covers his hands with lightning and commands it to hit its mark.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The word א֑וֹר, *’ōwr*, translated here as &quot;lightning,&quot; actually means &quot;light,&quot; just as it is with the Ancient Greek version (called the Septuagint, or LXX), which here renders א֑וֹר as φῶς, *phōs*. Most English Bibles go with the same erroneous rendition of the word as &quot;lightning,&quot; like in the HCSB (such as the New International Version, JPS Tanakh &amp; Darby Bible). There are a few (e.g. the King James Version, Brenton’s Septuagint, &amp; Young's Literal Translation) which correctly have the word as &quot;light,&quot; such as in the Douay Bible:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;In his hands he hideth the light, and commandeth it to come again.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But even if we do interpret this as a reference to God wielding lightning, based on the surrounding context, it again is simply extolling the control he possesses over nature in general, and it isn't necessarily saying anything about anyone getting zapped.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**3 **&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we were to discount the preceding references, we still have **Psalm 78.46-51**, in which something does get zapped by a fire-like substance. Referring to the plagues visited upon Egypt before the Israelite emancipation, it says that God&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;also gave their crops to the caterpillar,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And their labour to the locust.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; He destroyed their vines with hail,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And their sycamore trees with frost.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **He also gave up their cattle to the hail,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And their flocks to fiery lightning.**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; He cast on them the fierceness of his anger,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Wrath, indignation, and trouble,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; By sending messengers of destruction.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; He made a path for his anger;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; He did not spare their soul from death,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; But gave their beasts over to the plague,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And destroyed all the firstborn in Egypt,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The first of their strength in the tents of Kham.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The New English Translation makes v. 48 here much more explicit with:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He rained hail down on their cattle, and hurled lightning bolts down&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on their livestock.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarly the Good News Bible has: &quot;He killed their cattle with hail and their flocks with lightning.&quot; The expression *yasgêr*, referring to what he did with the cattle, is more passive than that, meaning that he surrendered these animals to the mercy of the storm's elements. So the New Living Translation is more like it, with: &quot;He *abandoned* their cattle to the hail, their livestock to bolts of lightning&quot; (emphasis mine). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Variations of the same expression are observable in how the crops are *yittên*, &quot;handed over,&quot; to the caterpillar and the locust in v. 46, and lives or beasts are *hisgîr*, &quot;given up,&quot; to the pestilence in v. 50. Going with the passage's context, it again seems to be a behind-the-scenes look at how God is the ultimate power within the forces of nature, whether via extreme weather or massively destructive pests.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nonetheless, as we have seen, at least one English Bible translation envisions the scene vividly enough to literally have God hurling down &quot;lightning bolts&quot; upon the Egyptian livestock. That verse is alluding to the seventh of the ten plagues upon Egypt: the plague of hail; and specifically in **Exodus 9.23-24**:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Moses stretched out his staff toward the sky, and YHWH sent&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thunder and hail, and fire ran along the ground. And YHWH rained&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hail upon the land of Egypt. There was hail and fire flashing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; continually in the midst of the hail, very grievous, such as had never&#xD;&#xA;&gt; been in all the land of Egypt since it became a nation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;About half of English Bibles translate the word אֵ֖שׁ, *’eish*, as &quot;lightning,&quot; such as in the International Standard Version, &quot;and lightning struck the earth&quot;. But the other half go with the word's literal meaning, &quot;fire&quot; (πῦρ, *pýr*, in the LXX), as in the New American Standard Bible: &quot;and fire ran down to the earth.&quot; The author of Psalm 78 does indeed seem to think that the &quot;fire&quot; of this plague is lightning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![&quot;The Seventh Plague,&quot; by John Martin (1823)][1]][1] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;THE FIRE OF GOD&#xD;&#xA;===============&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Destruction of the Cities of the Plain&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the ancient writings commonly known as the Old Testament, there are at least three stories which interpretations especially favour as lightning-strikes where the text is describing fire descending violently from the sky. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is only in the first of these stories that God is explicitly mentioned as the direct cause of the devastation: the incineration of the *‘ārey hak-kik'kār*, the &quot;cities of the plain&quot; (or &quot;cities of the valley,&quot; depending on your translation), in Genesis 19. The most famous of these cities are Sodom and Gomorrah (Admah and Zeboiim being listed together with them in Deuteronomy 29.25). According to **Genesis 19.24-25**,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; YHWH rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from YHWH out of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the heavens. So he overthrew those cities, all the plain, all the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Writing about the means of this region's devastation, the Jewish Roman writer Josephus (1st century AD) uses the Greek word for &quot;thunderbolt.&quot; According to William Whitson's translation of ***The Judaean War* 4.8** (with my own translation note):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is related how, for the impiety of its inhabitants, it was burnt by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lightning [*keraunoïs kataphlêgonai*]. In consequence of which there are still the remainders of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that divine fire, and the traces of the five cities are still to be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; seen: as well as the ashes growing in their fruits.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Qur’an's account of the story, God himself narrates the story, saying (in Ahmed Ali's translation of 11.82) that he &quot;turned the habitations upside down, and rained upon them stones of hardened lava in quick succession&quot;. The word *sijjīlin*, which Ali translates here as &quot;hardened lava&quot; is rendered in most other English translations as &quot;baked clay&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Pillar of Salt][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In 2018 there was a lot of buzz about a story which Evan Gough of Universe Today reported (Dec 5) as: &quot;A meteor may have exploded in the air 3,700 years ago, obliterating communities near the Dead Sea&quot;. Writing for Forbes, Eric Mack's December 4th title was: &quot;New Science Suggests Biblical City of Sodom was Smote [*sic*] by an Exploding Meteor&quot;. Other publications like The Times of Israel, Newsweek and ScienceNews also ran the story, which is about how this information was presented at a science conference by an archaeologist named Philip J. Silvia, of Trinity Southwest University, who had at that point been excavating in the region for the preceding 13 years.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Written a century and a half before this reportage, William Smith's Bible Dictionary article &quot;Sodom&quot; says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; We may suppose... that the actual agent in the ignition and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; destruction of the cities had been of the nature of a tremendous&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thunder-storm accompanied by a discharge of meteoric stones, (and that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; these set on fire the bitumen with which the soil was saturated, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which was used in building the city...).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Job's Flocks and Workmen&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Book of Job makes for an interesting challenge to this Question when considering the diverging Jewish and Christian interpretations thereof, particularly when it comes to the character of Satan, or rather—going more closely by *haś-śāṭān*, as the Hebrew text refers to him—&quot;*the* satan,&quot; i.e., &quot;the adversary&quot; or &quot;the opponent.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a more Christian perspective, whether there is or is not lightning in Job 1 might be a moot point for your Question, since it is being made use of the archfiend enemy of both God and man, so that *haś-śāṭān* here means the adversary *necessarily* of God and humankind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a more Jewish perspective, the adversary is merely performing his official function as God's court prosector, zealous for God's honour such as he is: he wishes to make sure than Job doesn't revere God merely on account of all the wealth, in family and possessions, with which he has been showered.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;God gives the satan the go-ahead to perform this test on his devotee, and the adversary, all in one day, wipes out almost all of Job's family while Job also loses almost all his property, livestock and servants. The relevant loss for the question at hand is in **Job 1.16**, wherein a messenger rushes to report to Job that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Fire of God has fallen from the sky, and burned up the flock, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; devoured the (shepherd-)lads likewise, and I having escaped alone have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; come to tell you.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I looked this verse up in a few different languages and they all uniformly translate אֵשׁ אֱלֹהִים, *’eish ’ĕlōhîm*, using its literal meaning: &quot;(the) fire of God&quot; (or, as it were, &quot;*moto wa Mungu*&quot;; &quot;*fuego de Dios*&quot;; &quot;*[le] feu de Dieu*&quot;; &quot;*[das] Feuer Gottes*&quot;, etc.). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The very few glaring exceptions were all in English, with the HCSB and the International Standard Version each having &quot;A lightning storm&quot;, the Good News Bible saying simply &quot;Lightning&quot;, and Eugene Peterson's *The Message* going so far as &quot;Bolts of lightning&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This inclination is followed by a couple of commentators. In Charles Ellicott's 1897 *An Old Testament Commentary for English Readers* he claims that &quot;it can hardly mean anything else than lightning&quot;. Agreeing that this is &quot;undoubtedly&quot; what the fire is, the Pulpit Commentary urges comparison with **Numbers 11.1-3**, an older text, which mentions אֵשׁ יְהוָה, *’eish yhwh*, the &quot;fire of YHWH&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt; Now when the people complained, it displeased YHWH; for YHWH heard it,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and his anger was aroused. So the fire of YHWH burned among them,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and consumed some in the outskirts of the camp. Then the people cried&#xD;&#xA;&gt; out to Moses, and when Moses prayed to YHWH, the fire was quenched. So&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he called the name of the place Taberah, because the fire of YHWH had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; burned among them.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ellicott links Job 1.16 to the devastation in Genesis 19 and both he and the Pulpit Commentary connect the same Job verse with the Elijah story below (q.v.). Contrary to them, however, especially with Numbers 11, I think that these stories are probably featuring a different kind of fire. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the Book of Job, whether Satan is God's obedient agent or he's rebelling as far as he can within the bounds of God's permission, and whether he kills Job's herds and men using lightning or something other, God himself is not portrayed as directly inflicting the harm.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The satan's choice of words in Job 1.11, shortly before he attacks, is potentially interesting, though, as he seems to interpret what happened next as God stretching forth his own hand to &quot;touch all that he [Job] has&quot;. And lo! and behold! in the next scene it is God's own fire in use. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Prophet Elijah  &#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------                    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to **2 Kings 1**, King Ahaziah of Israel once sent a band of fifty of his men, together with their captain, apparently to apprehend the prophet Elijah, who was sitting atop a hill. When the captain ordered him to descend, the prophet summoned fire from the sky to consume the captain and all fifty of his men, and &quot;fire of God&quot; fell upon these soldiers, killing them all. A second captain with his fifty men was sent and the same thing happened with *them*. A third captain with his fifty soldiers then went out to Elijah and begged the prophet to spare their lives. An angel then instructed Elijah to go along with the soldiers to meet with the king. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As mentioned above, Charles Ellicott believes that the &quot;fire of God&quot; is lightning, even though he also points out that the LXX, as well as the Latin (Vulgate Bible) and Ancient Arabic translations of 2 Kings 1.12, together with the Targum and some manuscripts, omit &quot;of God&quot; from the expression.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Earlier in his career, in **1 Kings 18**, Elijah engages in a competition against the priests of the Canaanite deity Ba'al to prove whom the Israelites should worship between Ba'al and YHWH. The opposing sides set up two separate altars and made offerings upon it but didn't light any fires to burn them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![The Triumph of Elijah Over the Prophets of Baal, by Domenico Fetti][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It would be a test to see which of the two divinities would or could light his own offerings with fire from heaven. YHWH proves himself to Israel by being the only one to respond. The challenge which Elijah had set for Ba'al's priests was (in v. 24) to:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;call on the name of your *elohim*, and I will call on the name of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; YHWH; and the *elohim* who answers by fire, *he* is Elohim.” And all&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the people agreed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Despite Ellicott's Commentary, every Bible I've come across is content to translate every reference to *’eish* in Elijah's stories as simply &quot;fire.&quot; Ironically for me, it is *these* instances which make for easy pickings in terms of references to fire falling from the sky which could plausibly and easily be seen as lightning. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Prophet's Inspiration**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Elijah's pronouncement about &quot;the elohim who answers by fire&quot; is supposed to remind the Israelites of **2 Chronicles 7.1**, in which, about a century earlier, King Solomon dedicates the Temple he has just finished building. Sacrifices are being presented to God thereat, and:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When Solomon had finished praying, fire came down from heaven and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the splendour of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; YHWH filled the Temple.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;God kindling his own offerings here is in turn a callback to **Leviticus 9.24**, at the inauguration of the Levitical priesthood during Moses' time some generations before Solomon: Israel has just prepared sacrifices to offer to God, whereupon:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fire came out from before YHWH and consumed the burnt offering and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fat on the altar. When all the people saw it, they shouted and fell on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their faces.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Hebrew, this fire came מִלִּפְנֵ֣י, *mil-lip̄ney*, literally, &quot;out of the face of&quot; YHWH, but it is often translated &quot;from the presence of the LORD&quot;. Assuming that each altar-lighting is meant to be understand as being achieved by the same method, and assuming that that mechanism is lightning, then here we have that many more examples for the Question. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Fiery Breath or Blazing Thunderbolt?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the other hand, the prophet Isaiah envisions YHWH as bearing a tongue which is &quot;like a devouring fire&quot; and breath which is &quot;like a stream of brimstone&quot; (Isaiah 30.27, 33) while Solomon's father King David sings in 2 Samuel 22.9 of smoke going up from YHWH's nostrils, &quot;and devouring fire&quot; coming &quot;from his mouth; coals were kindled by it.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So if the fire at the Levitical altar literally came out of God's face, perhaps it is supposed to be, rather, his breath, and thus the same at Solomon's temple and Elijah's sacrifice contest (and upon the cities of the plain too?). The Ancient Greek version of that same Isaiah passage, however, seems to suggest that will strike Assyria with lightning, via the use of a *keraunós*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Translating the Hebrew version of Isaiah 30.33-34, the English Standard Version reads that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;the LORD will cause his majestic voice to be heard and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; descending blow of his arm to be seen,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In furious anger and a flame of devouring fire, with a cloudburst and storm and hailstones.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Assyrians will be terror-stricken at the voice of the LORD, when he strikes with his rod.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greek would render it as something more like this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[T]he Lord will cause the glory of his voice to be heard and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wrath of his arm he will display with rage and fury.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And as a devouring flame ***keraunósei*** {he shall strike with a thunderbolt}&#xD;&#xA;&gt; violently, even as water and hail being carried together by force.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; For, by the voice of the Lord, the Assyrians shall be vanquished, even by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the calamity in which he should strike them.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;THE LIGHT OF THE APOSTLES&#xD;&#xA;===============&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Canonical**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most of the Biblical texts collectively known as the New Testament are attributed to the Apostle Paul, who, prior to becoming a follower of Jesus Christ, was a persecutor of Jesus' disciples. In **the Acts of the Apostles 9**, he is on a mission to arrest &quot;any who were [followers] of the Way&quot; and when &quot;he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. Then he fell to the ground&quot; (vv. 3-4) and a few days later his sight was restored and he himself eventually became one of the most prominent apostles of Christ.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to TVTropes.org, &quot;Some modern Biblical scholars believe that what Paul experienced on the Road to Damascus (which sparked his conversion to Christianity) was a lightning strike.&quot; J.D. Bullock of the Wright State University School of Medicine's Department of Ophthalmology, Dayton, OH, in the 1994 article &quot;Was Saint Paul struck blind and converted by lightning?&quot;, says: &quot;Numerous theories have been proposed to account for this event which has been the subject of interest of theologians, philosophers, artists, and physicians. A lightning strike could explain all of the features of this episode.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Paul's later recollection of the event in Acts 26.12-14, the light was brighter than the midday sun, and after he and his companions had seen it, they all fell to the ground. He is the only one who appears to have been blinded, though, which seems bizarrely selective of a flash of lightning, and which I personally doubt is what is intended in this story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Apocryphal**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As it happens, however, there is a story in the Acts of Philip, one of the numerous apocryphal books of the Acts of the Apostles, in which an enemy of the apostles is explicitly blinded by lightning. As is typical even in the canonical scriptures, the event is *not* explicitly attributed to God, although the inference of his being responsible for it is fairly obvious.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the summary of **the Acts of Philip** (by the North American Society for the Study of Christian Apocryphal Literature [NASSCAL]), Jesus, after his resurrection and ascension to heaven, once sent Philip &quot;to Opheorymos where the people worship the Viper, the mother of the serpents.&quot; These were Ophites, a snake-worshipping Christian sect often defined as Gnostic, and in the story Philip is being sent to refute them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While in Opheorymos, in Ch. 9, &quot;the group are confronted by a dragon attended by serpents. Philip tells his companions to [sprinkle] their cups with water and sprinkle the air with the sign of the cross. The dragon and all the serpents are blinded, they dry up, and their eggs are destroyed.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The chapter's last line says that after the sign of the cross was made,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; there was as a flash of lightning which blinded the dragon and its&#xD;&#xA;&gt; brood; and they were withered up; and the rays of the sun entered the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; holes and broke the eggs. But the apostles closed their eyes, unable&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to face the lightning, and remained unhurt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Earlier in the same book there is a scene quite reminiscent of Paul's misadventure on his way to Damascus, with a hint of Elijah's encounter with Ahaziah's men. According to the NASSCAL summary, in Ch. 2, while Philip is in Athens, the Jewish high priest Ananias&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;comes to Athens with 500 strong men to capture Philip and bring&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him back to Jerusalem where their king Archelaus could kill him. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; high priest tries to strike Philip but his hand withers and he is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; blinded. The 500 men also are blinded. At Philip’s prayer, Jesus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reveals himself and the idols and demons in Athens flee. Philip heals&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ananias but he refuses to believe, so the ground swallows him up to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his neck. The 500 men, however, repent and their sight is restored.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ananias remains stubborn and sinks into the abyss.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The blinding that occurs here is connected with lightning, as the text itself says that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jesus appeared coming down in most excellent glory, and in lightning;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and His face was shining sevenfold more than the sun, and His garments&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were whiter than snow, so that also all the idols of Athens fell&#xD;&#xA;&gt; suddenly to the ground.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If this is inspired by Jesus' appearance to Paul on the Damascus Road, perhaps the Acts of Philip represents an early understanding of the light in Paul's encounter as lightning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In another apocryphal Acts book, it is a demon who threatens a lightning-strike, and maybe this could be based on Satan's devastation of Job's household. In *The Acts and Marytrdom of St Matthew the Apostle*, the demon Asmodaeus (addressed in the same text as Asmodaeus Beelzebul Satan) is forced by an angel to say to King Fulvanus of Myrna, “the city of the man-eaters,” that if he seeks to persecute Matthew,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;“we shall go, even seven unclean demons, and immediately make away&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with thee and thy whole camp, and destroy all the city with lightning,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; except those naming that awful and holy name of Christ; for wherever a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; footstep of theirs has come, thence, pursued, we flee.”&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Acording to TVTropes.org, &quot;more than one persecutor of Christian saints and martyrs was&quot; struck by lightning. &quot;The most famous example is Saint Barbara's father, Dioscorus; he had his own daughter tortured and executed for converting to Christianity despite him locking her away from the world, then he was killed by a lightning bolt later that day.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;ʿĀD AND THAMŪD&#xD;&#xA;==============&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the same way that the cities of the plain are frequently used in the Bible as one of the ultimate cautionary tales of entire peoples who disobeyed God and were wiped out for it, so it is in the Qur’an with ʿĀd and Thamūd, whose names are variously interpreted as belonging to cities or tribes or a combination of such.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;صَاعِقَةِ, *ṣaʿiqah*, &quot;thunderbolt,&quot; the singular form of *ṣawaʿiq*, is used in Surah 41. Muhammad Muhsin Khan's translation merely transliterates this word in v. 17, providing an expansion of definitions for it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And as for Thamud, We showed and made clear to them the Path of Truth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Islamic Monotheism) through Our Messenger, (i.e. showed them the way&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of success), but they preferred blindness to guidance, so the Saʿiqah&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (a destructive awful cry, torment, hit, a thunderbolt) of disgracing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; torment seized them, because of what they used to earn.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Madain Saleh, by Sammy Six][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;*Madain Saleh photo by Sammy Six (January 15, 2012)*&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Sahih International version of 51.44:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But they were insolent toward the command of their Lord,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; So the thunderbolt seized them while they were looking on.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ahmed Ali's rendition of the same reads:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But they disobeyed the command of their Lord;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; so they were destroyed by a thunderbolt,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; and they could only gape.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For both example verses, however, there are translators who, seeming to take the cue from Khan, evidently do not understand the &quot;thunderbolt(s)&quot; as literal, preferring instead to read it/them as things like &quot;disgrace&quot;, &quot;stunning Punishment&quot;, &quot;rumbling&quot;, or, going by Abdullah Yusuf Ali, &quot;the stunning noise (of an earthquake)&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An earthquake is indeed said to have destroyed Thamūd in 7.78. Other elements are mentioned as the means by which these peoples and/or place were swept away. In Surah 69, ʿĀd is destroyed by a &quot;furious cold blast of wind&quot; which blows for seven nights &amp; eight days. It also “turned everything it touched to ashes” (51.41-42) and &quot;snatched away men as though they were palm trees pulled out by the roots&quot; (54.19-20).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some kind of overpowering blast is said to have destroyed Thamūd in 69.5, which Ahmed Ali calls &quot;a storm of thunder and lightning&quot;. In all these references, it is put passively that these extreme weather phenomena obliterated the people/places. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From context it has to mean that it was God who did it, but it also doesn't sound much different from saying that God controls the weather in general (see 2.19-20, 13.12 &amp; 30.24) or causes babies to grow in their mother's wombs and such. The one doubtlessly clear mention of the sort of thing your Question asks is noted in the first section above (*q.v.*).   &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Kvm5z.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/0P2Qm.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Z31bv.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/fxpZ7.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19825" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5932" RevisionGUID="3ebd3510-f998-4571-8c54-925c50c8448a" CreationDate="2019-09-26T20:49:03.807" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected spelling, fixed grammar, improved formatting, updated some details, &amp; truncated some sections" Text="Apparently, yes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Bible there are several instances of fire raining down from the sky or &quot;coming from the presence of&quot; God and falling upon people. Some interpret these as lightning-strikes. For the majority of these, however, I have my doubts as to whether they are actually intended to be occurrences of lightning. More on that below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A few statements in the Qur’an make the answer to the Question a lot less ambiguous than it is in the Scriptures of Judaism and Christianity. Perhaps the most explicit comes from **Surah (Chapter) 13**, entitled **Ar-Raʿd, &quot;The Thunder,&quot;** whose English translations by both Arthur John Arberry and M.H. Shakir even use your word of choice: *smite*. In the Shakir version of v. 13:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the thunder declares His glory with His praise, and the angels too for awe of Him;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; and He sends the thunderbolts and smites with them whom He pleases,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; yet they dispute concerning Allah, and He is mighty in prowess.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like the Greek κεραυνός, *keraunós*, (which I discuss further in the next section &quot;Possibilities&quot; below), the Arabic word الصَّوَاعِقَ, *ṣawaʿiq*, translated here as &quot;thunderbolts,&quot; refers to objects containing both thunder and lightning. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding actual events in which such &quot;smiting&quot; takes place, there is at least one story in the Qur’an in which there appears to occur the obliteration of people by the use of lightning in the precise sense in question here. For that, see the last section below.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;POSSIBILITIES&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you have observed, in the Bible, YHWH Sabaoth, commonly translated &quot;the LORD of Hosts,&quot; is closely associated with lightning and its imagery. In those texts, however, there is no especially vivid picture of him using it as a missile akin to the manner of Zeus or similar Eurasian sky-deities. I shall proceed, nonetheless, to examine to what extent I might be wrong about that as follows.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**1 ⚡︎**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are a few Bible stories involving the use of the word &quot;fire,&quot; which make for scenarios fairly open to interpretation as far as the question at hand is concerned. Before we get to those, let's start off with **Psalm 144.5-7**, the clearest reference that I could find:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Bend your heavens, O YHWH, and come down:   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Touch the mountains, and they will smoke.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Cast forth lightning, and scatter them**:   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Shoot out your arrows, and destroy them.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Send forth your hand from on high,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Free me, and deliver me from many waters,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; From the hand of the sons of a foreigner.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is not related to an event nor is it about anyone specific. It is also in the same vein of references to God using lightning and thunder to inspire dread or awe. For example, after the Israelites arrive at Mt Sinai after having been emancipated from slavery in Egypt, God enshrouds himself on the summit of the mountain in a cloud of darkness accompanied by thunder and lightning in order to prevent the people from encroaching upon holy ground.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nonetheless the psalm here could relatively easily be read as a group of individuals being blasted with lightning, and that this is what scatters them. Is the lightning the same thing as the destroying arrows in v. 6? The Contemporary English Bible translation apparently thinks so, translating the line as: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Use your lightning as arrows to scatter my enemies and make them run&#xD;&#xA;&gt; away.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To me, though, it is likelier that it simply means people freaking out and dispersing after a scary electrical event in the sky. It appears to be of a piece with the descriptions of YHWH as a celestial warrior riding, or enthroned upon, the storm and its clouds (see 2 Samuel 22.15, Psalm 144.6, Wisdom 5.22 &amp; Zechariah 9.14 [&amp; cf. Revelation 4.5]). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**2 ⚡︎⚡︎**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the English Standard Version of **Isaiah 30.33-34**:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;the LORD will cause his majestic voice to be heard and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; descending blow of his arm to be seen,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In furious anger and a flame of devouring fire, with a cloudburst and storm and hailstones.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Assyrians will be terror-stricken at the voice of the LORD, when he strikes with his rod.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That is based primarily on the Hebrew text of this passage. The Ancient Greek translation thereof, from what is commonly called the Septuagint (or LXX) seems to suggest that God will strike the Assyrians with lightning, via the use of a *keraunós*. Here is a translation rendered from the Greek:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[T]he Lord will cause the glory of his voice to be heard and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wrath of his arm he will display with rage and fury.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And, as a devouring flame, ***keraunósei*** {he shall strike with a thunderbolt}&#xD;&#xA;&gt; violently, even as water and hail being carried together by force.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; For, by the voice of the Lord, the Assyrians shall be vanquished, even by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the calamity in which he should strike them.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even in the Greek version, however, this looks as though, like with Psalm 144, it could simply refer to Israel's enemies being frightened by the weather, at God's behest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**3 ⚡︎⚡︎⚡︎**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In **Psalm 78.46-51** we're getting a little warmer, wherein animate objects do get zapped by a fire-like substance, although it isn't human beings. Referring to the plagues visited upon Egypt before the Israelite emancipation, it says that God&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;also gave their crops to the caterpillar,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And their labour to the locust.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; He destroyed their vines with hail,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And their sycamore trees with frost.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **He also gave up their cattle to the hail,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And their flocks to fiery lightning.**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; He cast on them the fierceness of his anger,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Wrath, indignation, and trouble,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; By sending messengers of destruction.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; He made a path for his anger;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; He did not spare their soul from death,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; But gave their beasts over to the plague,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And destroyed all the firstborn in Egypt,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The first of their strength in the tents of Kham.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The New English Translation makes v. 48 here much more explicit with:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He rained hail down on their cattle, and hurled lightning bolts down&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on their livestock.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarly the Good News Bible has: &quot;He killed their cattle with hail and their flocks with lightning.&quot; The expression *yasgêr*, referring to what he did with the cattle, is more passive than that, meaning that he surrendered these animals to the mercy of the storm's elements. So the New Living Translation is more like it, with: &quot;He *abandoned* their cattle to the hail, their livestock to bolts of lightning&quot; (emphasis mine). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Variations of the same expression are observable in how the crops are *yittên*, &quot;handed over,&quot; to the caterpillar and the locust in v. 46, and lives or beasts are *hisgîr*, &quot;given up,&quot; to the pestilence in v. 50. Going with the passage's context, it is rendered as more of a behind-the-scenes look at how God is the ultimate power within the forces of nature, whether via extreme weather or massively destructive pests.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nonetheless, as we have seen, at least one English Bible translation envisions the scene vividly enough to literally have God hurling down &quot;lightning bolts&quot; upon the Egyptian livestock. That verse is alluding to the seventh of the ten plagues upon Egypt: the plague of hail; and specifically in **Exodus 9.23-24**:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Moses stretched out his staff toward the sky, and YHWH sent&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thunder and hail, and fire ran along the ground. And YHWH rained&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hail upon the land of Egypt. There was hail and fire flashing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; continually in the midst of the hail, very grievous, such as had never&#xD;&#xA;&gt; been in all the land of Egypt since it became a nation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;About half of English Bibles translate the word אֵ֖שׁ, *’eish*, as &quot;lightning,&quot; such as in the International Standard Version, &quot;and lightning struck the earth&quot;. But the other half go with the word's literal meaning, &quot;fire&quot; (πῦρ, *pýr*, in the LXX), as in the New American Standard Bible: &quot;and fire ran down to the earth.&quot; The author of Psalm 78 does indeed seem to think that the &quot;fire&quot; of this plague is lightning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![&quot;The Seventh Plague,&quot; by John Martin (1823)][1]][1] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;THE FIRE OF GOD&#xD;&#xA;===============&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Cities of the Plain&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the ancient writings commonly known as the Old Testament, there are at least three stories which interpretations especially favour as lightning-strikes where the text is describing fire descending violently from the sky. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is only in the first of these stories that God is explicitly mentioned as the direct cause of the devastation: the incineration of the *‘ārey hak-kik'kār*, the &quot;cities of the plain&quot; (or &quot;cities of the valley,&quot; depending on your translation), in Genesis 19. The most famous of these cities are Sodom and Gomorrah (Admah and Zeboiim being listed together with them in Deuteronomy 29.25). According to **Genesis 19.24-25**,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; YHWH rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from YHWH out of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the heavens. So he overthrew those cities, all the plain, all the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Writing about the means of this region's devastation, the Jewish Roman writer Josephus (1st century AD) uses the Greek word for &quot;thunderbolt.&quot; According to William Whitson's translation of ***The Wars of the Jews* 4.8** (with my own translation note):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is related how, for the impiety of its inhabitants, it was burnt by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lightning [*keraunoïs kataphlêgonai*]. In consequence of which there are still the remainders of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that Divine fire, and the traces [or shadows] of the five cities are still to be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; seen: as well as the ashes growing in their fruits.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Qur’an's account of the story, God himself narrates the story, saying (in Ahmed Ali's translation of 11.82) that he &quot;turned the habitations upside down, and rained upon them stones of hardened lava in quick succession&quot;. The word *sijjīlin*, which Ali translates here as &quot;hardened lava&quot; is rendered in most other English translations as &quot;baked clay&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Pillar of Salt][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In 2018 there was a lot of buzz about a story which Evan Gough of *Universe Today* reported as: &quot;A meteor may have exploded in the air 3,700 years ago, obliterating communities near the Dead Sea&quot; (December 5th). Writing for *Forbes*, Eric Mack's title was: &quot;New Science Suggests Biblical City of Sodom was Smote [*sic*] by an Exploding Meteor&quot; (December 4th). Other publications like *The Times of Israel*, ScienceNews.org, and *Newsweek* also ran the story, which is about how this information was presented at a science conference by an archaeologist named Phillip J. Silvia, of Trinity Southwest University, who had at that point been excavating in the Dead Sea region for the preceding 13 years.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Written a century and a half before this reportage, William Smith's Bible Dictionary article &quot;Sodom&quot; says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; We may suppose... that the actual agent in the ignition and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; destruction of the cities had been of the nature of a tremendous&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thunder-storm accompanied by a discharge of meteoric stones, (and that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; these set on fire the bitumen with which the soil was saturated, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which was used in building the city...).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Job's Workmen (and Flocks)&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Book of Job makes for an interesting challenge to this Question when considering the diverging Jewish and Christian interpretations thereof, particularly when it comes to the character of Satan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a more Christian perspective, whether there is or is not lightning in Job 1 might be a moot point for your Question, since it is the archfiend enemy of God rather than God himself who is employing the use of this celestial electricity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a more Jewish perspective, Satan, a member of the divine king's court, is merely performing his official function as God's royal court prosecutor. Zealous for God's honour such as he is, he wishes to ensure than Job doesn't revere God merely on account of all the wealth, in family and possessions, with which he has been showered.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;God gives Satan the go-ahead to perform this test on his devotee, and, all in one day, Satan wipes out almost all of Job's family while Job also loses almost all his property, livestock and servants. The relevant loss for the question at hand is in **Job 1.16**, wherein a messenger rushes to report to Job that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Fire of God has fallen from the sky, and burned up the flock, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; devoured the (shepherd-)lads likewise, and I having escaped alone have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; come to tell you.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I looked this verse up in a few different languages and they all uniformly translate אֵשׁ אֱלֹהִים, *’eish ’ĕlōhîm*, using its literal meaning: &quot;(the) fire of God&quot; (or, as it were, &quot;*moto wa Mungu*&quot;; &quot;*fuego de Dios*&quot;; &quot;*[le] feu de Dieu*&quot;; &quot;*[das] Feuer Gottes*&quot;, etc.). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The very few glaring exceptions were all in English, with the HCSB and the International Standard Version each having &quot;A lightning storm&quot;, the Good News Bible saying simply &quot;Lightning&quot;, and Eugene Peterson's *The Message* going so far as &quot;Bolts of lightning&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This inclination is followed by a couple of commentators. In Charles Ellicott's 1897 *An Old Testament Commentary for English Readers* he claims that &quot;it can hardly mean anything else than lightning&quot;. Agreeing that this is &quot;undoubtedly&quot; what the fire is, the Pulpit Commentary urges comparison with **Numbers 11.1-3**, an older text, which mentions אֵשׁ יְהוָה, *’eish yhwh*, the &quot;fire of YHWH&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt; Now when the people complained, it displeased YHWH; for YHWH heard it,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and his anger was aroused. So the fire of YHWH burned among them,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and consumed some in the outskirts of the camp. Then the people cried&#xD;&#xA;&gt; out to Moses, and when Moses prayed to YHWH, the fire was quenched. So&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he called the name of the place Taberah, because the fire of YHWH had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; burned among them.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ellicott links Job 1.16 to the devastation in Genesis 19 and both he and the Pulpit Commentary connect the same Job verse with the Elijah story below (q.v.). Contrary to them, however, especially with Numbers 11, I think that these stories are probably featuring a different kind of fire. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the Book of Job, whether Satan is God's obedient agent or he's rebelling as far as he can within the bounds of God's permission, and whether he kills Job's herds and men using lightning or something other, God himself is not portrayed as directly inflicting the harm.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Satan's choice of words in Job 1.11, shortly before he attacks, is potentially interesting, though, as he seems to interpret what happens next as God stretching forth his own hand to &quot;touch all that he [Job] has&quot;. And indeed, lo, and behold, in the next scene it is God's own fire in use. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ahaziah's Soldiers  &#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------                    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to **2 Kings 1**, King Ahaziah of Israel once sent a band of fifty of his men, together with their captain, to apprehend the prophet Elijah, who was sitting atop a hill. When the captain ordered him to descend, the prophet summoned fire from the sky to consume the captain and all fifty of his men, whereupon &quot;fire of God&quot; fell upon these soldiers, killing them all. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A second captain with his fifty men was sent and they fared just as badly. A third captain with his fifty soldiers then went out to Elijah and begged the prophet to spare their lives. An angel then instructed Elijah to go along with the soldiers to meet with the king. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As mentioned in the previous section, Charles Ellicott believes that the &quot;fire of God&quot; is lightning. Incidentally, every Bible I've come across is content to translate every reference to *’eish* in this story as simply &quot;fire.&quot; Ironically for me, the description here makes for much easier pickings in terms of references to fire falling from the sky which could plausibly and easily be seen as lightning. &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;THE LIGHT OF THE APOSTLES&#xD;&#xA;===============&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Canonical**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most of the Biblical texts collectively known as the New Testament are attributed to the Apostle Paul, who, prior to becoming a follower of Jesus Christ, was a persecutor of Jesus' disciples. In **the Acts of the Apostles 9**, he is on a mission to arrest &quot;any who were [followers] of the Way&quot; and when &quot;he came near Damascus... suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. Then he fell to the ground&quot; (vv. 3-4) and a few days later his sight was restored and he himself eventually became one of the most prominent apostles of Christ.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to TVTropes.org, &quot;Some modern Biblical scholars believe that what Paul experienced on the Road to Damascus (which sparked his conversion to Christianity) was a lightning strike.&quot; J.D. Bullock of the Wright State University School of Medicine's Department of Ophthalmology, Dayton, OH, in the 1994 article &quot;Was Saint Paul struck blind and converted by lightning?&quot;, says: &quot;Numerous theories have been proposed to account for this event which has been the subject of interest of theologians, philosophers, artists, and physicians. A lightning strike could explain all of the features of this episode.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Paul's later recollection of the event in Acts 26.12-14, the light was brighter than the midday sun, and after he and his companions had seen it, they all fell to the ground. He is the only one who appears to have been blinded, though, which seems bizarrely selective of a flash of lightning, and which I personally doubt is what is intended in this story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Apocryphal**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As it happens, however, there is a story in the Acts of Philip, one of the numerous apocryphal books of the Acts of the Apostles, in which an enemy of the apostles is explicitly blinded by lightning. The lightning-strike is, however, not upon any humans. As is typical even in the canonical scriptures, the event is *not* explicitly attributed to God, although the inference of his being responsible for it is fairly obvious.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the summary of **the Acts of Philip** (by the North American Society for the Study of Christian Apocryphal Literature [NASSCAL]), Jesus, after his resurrection and ascension to heaven, once sent Philip &quot;to Opheorymos where the people worship the Viper, the mother of the serpents.&quot; These were Ophites, a snake-worshipping Christian sect often defined as Gnostic, and in the story Philip is being sent to refute them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While in Opheorymos, in Ch. 9, &quot;the group are confronted by a dragon attended by serpents. Philip tells his companions to [sprinkle] their cups with water and sprinkle the air with the sign of the cross. The dragon and all the serpents are blinded, they dry up, and their eggs are destroyed.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The chapter's last line says that after the sign of the cross was made,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; there was as a flash of lightning which blinded the dragon and its&#xD;&#xA;&gt; brood; and they were withered up; and the rays of the sun entered the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; holes and broke the eggs. But the apostles closed their eyes, unable&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to face the lightning, and remained unhurt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Earlier in the same book there is a scene quite reminiscent of Paul's misadventure on his way to Damascus, with a hint of Elijah's encounter with Ahaziah's men. According to the NASSCAL summary, in Ch. 2, while Philip is in Athens, the Jewish high priest Ananias&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;comes to Athens with 500 strong men to capture Philip and bring&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him back to Jerusalem where their king Archelaus could kill him. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; high priest tries to strike Philip but his hand withers and he is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; blinded. The 500 men also are blinded. At Philip’s prayer, Jesus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reveals himself and the idols and demons in Athens flee. Philip heals&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ananias but he refuses to believe, so the ground swallows him up to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his neck. The 500 men, however, repent and their sight is restored.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ananias remains stubborn and sinks into the abyss.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The blinding that occurs here is connected with lightning, as the text itself says that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jesus appeared coming down in most excellent glory, and in lightning;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and His face was shining sevenfold more than the sun, and His garments&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were whiter than snow, so that also all the idols of Athens fell&#xD;&#xA;&gt; suddenly to the ground.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If this is inspired by Jesus' appearance to Paul on the Damascus Road, perhaps the Acts of Philip represents an early understanding of the light in Paul's encounter as lightning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In another apocryphal Acts book, it is a demon who threatens a lightning-strike, and maybe this could be based on Satan's devastation of Job's household. In *The Acts and Marytrdom of St Matthew the Apostle*, the demon Asmodaeus (addressed in the same text as Asmodaeus Beelzebul Satan) is forced by an angel to say to King Fulvanus of Myrna, “the city of the man-eaters,” that if he seeks to persecute Matthew,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;“we shall go, even seven unclean demons, and immediately make away&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with thee and thy whole camp, and destroy all the city with lightning,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; except those naming that awful and holy name of Christ; for wherever a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; footstep of theirs has come, thence, pursued, we flee.”&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Acording to TVTropes.org, &quot;more than one persecutor of Christian saints and martyrs was&quot; struck by lightning. &quot;The most famous example is Saint Barbara's father, Dioscorus; he had his own daughter tortured and executed for converting to Christianity despite him locking her away from the world, then he was killed by a lightning bolt later that day.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unlike Dioscorus, who is supposed to have lived about 200 years after the time of the apostles, the sufferers of lightning-strikes in the New Testament, whether canonical (if we count Paul as one) or apocryphal, merely experience the effect of its light rather than being incinerated by its heat. If blinding by lightning doesn't count as getting &quot;smitten,&quot; then we perhaps have zero instances in any of the New Testament (inside or outside the canon) of a yes to your Question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;ʿĀD AND THAMŪD&#xD;&#xA;==============&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the same way that the cities of the plain are frequently used in the Bible as one of the ultimate cautionary tales of entire peoples who disobeyed God and were wiped out for it, so it is in the Qur’an with ʿĀd and Thamūd, whose names are variously interpreted as belonging to cities or tribes or a combination of such.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;صَاعِقَةِ, *ṣaʿiqah*, &quot;thunderbolt,&quot; the singular form of *ṣawaʿiq*, is used in Surah 41. Muhammad Muhsin Khan's translation merely trans*liter*ates this word in v. 17, providing an expansion of definitions for it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And as for Thamud, We showed and made clear to them the Path of Truth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Islamic Monotheism) through Our Messenger, (i.e. showed them the way&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of success), but they preferred blindness to guidance, so the Saʿiqah&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (a destructive awful cry, torment, hit, a thunderbolt) of disgracing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; torment seized them, because of what they used to earn.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Madain Saleh, by Sammy Six][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;*Madain Saleh photo by Sammy Six (January 15, 2012)*&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Sahih International version of 51.44:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But they were insolent toward the command of their Lord,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; So the thunderbolt seized them while they were looking on.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ahmed Ali's rendition of the same reads:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But they disobeyed the command of their Lord;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; so they were destroyed by a thunderbolt,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; and they could only gape.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For both example verses, however, there are translators who, seeming to take the cue from Khan, evidently do not understand the &quot;thunderbolt(s)&quot; as literal, preferring instead to read it/them as things like &quot;disgrace&quot;, &quot;stunning Punishment&quot;, &quot;rumbling&quot;, or, going by Abdullah Yusuf Ali, &quot;the stunning noise (of an earthquake)&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An earthquake is indeed said to have destroyed Thamūd in 7.78. Other elements are mentioned as the means by which these peoples and/or places were swept away. In Surah 69, ʿĀd is destroyed by a &quot;furious cold blast of wind&quot; which blows for seven nights &amp; eight days. It also “turned everything it touched to ashes” (51.41-42) and &quot;snatched away men as though they were palm trees pulled out by the roots&quot; (54.19-20).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some kind of overpowering blast is said to have destroyed Thamūd in 69.5, which Ahmed Ali calls &quot;a storm of thunder and lightning&quot;. In all these references, it is stated a passive event that these extreme weather phenomena obliterated the people/places rather than it necessarily being the necessarily intentional action of a particular agent.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From context it has to mean that it was God who did it, but it also doesn't sound much different from saying that God controls the weather in general (see 2.19-20, 13.12 &amp; 30.24) or causes babies to grow in their mother's wombs and such. The one doubtlessly clear mention of the sort of thing your Question asks is noted in the first section above (*q.v.*).   &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Kvm5z.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/0P2Qm.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Z31bv.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/fxpZ7.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19826" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5933" RevisionGUID="13e8a2d9-ce7c-4832-90b5-191eacd1650e" CreationDate="2019-09-26T20:54:16.810" UserId="6368" Text="it is believed that that most gods including, Odin, Thor,and multiple other gods and goddesses die at the end of Ragnarok." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19827" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5933" RevisionGUID="13e8a2d9-ce7c-4832-90b5-191eacd1650e" CreationDate="2019-09-26T20:54:16.810" UserId="6368" Text="Does Loki die at the end of Ragnarok?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19828" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5933" RevisionGUID="13e8a2d9-ce7c-4832-90b5-191eacd1650e" CreationDate="2019-09-26T20:54:16.810" UserId="6368" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19830" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5932" RevisionGUID="d7d2a549-648c-4bf7-87a5-135c3d0a2911" CreationDate="2019-09-27T00:50:22.760" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; tweaked some details" Text="Apparently, yes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Bible there are several instances of fire raining down from the sky or &quot;coming from the presence of&quot; God and falling upon people. Some interpret these as lightning-strikes. For the majority of these, however, I have my doubts as to whether they are actually intended to be occurrences of lightning. More on that below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A few statements in the Qur’an make the answer to the Question a lot less ambiguous than it is in the Scriptures of Judaism and Christianity. Perhaps the most explicit comes from **Surah (Chapter) 13**, entitled **Ar-Raʿd, &quot;The Thunder,&quot;** whose English translations by both Arthur John Arberry and M.H. Shakir even use your word of choice: *smite*. In the Shakir version of v. 13:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the thunder declares His glory with His praise, and the angels too for awe of Him;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; and He sends the thunderbolts and smites with them whom He pleases,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; yet they dispute concerning Allah, and He is mighty in prowess.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like the Greek κεραυνός, *keraunós*, (which I discuss further in the next section &quot;Possibilities&quot; below), the Arabic word الصَّوَاعِقَ, *ṣawaʿiq*, translated here as &quot;thunderbolts,&quot; refers to objects containing both thunder and lightning. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding actual events in which such &quot;smiting&quot; takes place, there is at least one story in the Qur’an in which there appears to occur the obliteration of people by the use of lightning in the precise sense in question here. For that, see the last section below.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;POSSIBILITIES&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you have observed, in the Bible, YHWH Sabaoth, commonly translated &quot;the LORD of Hosts,&quot; is closely associated with lightning and its imagery. In those texts, however, there is no especially vivid picture of him using it as a missile akin to the manner of Zeus or similar Eurasian sky-deities. I shall proceed, nonetheless, to examine to what extent I might be wrong about that as follows.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**1 ⚡︎**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are a few Bible stories involving the use of the word &quot;fire,&quot; which make for scenarios fairly open to interpretation as far as the question at hand is concerned. Before we get to those, let's start off with **Psalm 144.5-7**, the clearest reference that I could find:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Bend your heavens, O YHWH, and come down:   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Touch the mountains, and they will smoke.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Cast forth lightning, and scatter them**:   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Shoot out your arrows, and destroy them.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Send forth your hand from on high,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Free me, and deliver me from many waters,   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; From the hand of the sons of a foreigner.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is not related to an event nor is it about anyone specific. It is also in the same vein of references to God using lightning and thunder to inspire dread or awe. For example, after the Israelites arrive at Mt Sinai after having been emancipated from slavery in Egypt, God enshrouds himself on the summit of the mountain in a cloud of darkness accompanied by thunder and lightning in order to prevent the people from encroaching upon holy ground.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nonetheless the psalm here could relatively easily be read as a group of individuals being blasted with lightning, and that this is what scatters them. Is the lightning the same thing as the destroying arrows in v. 6? The Contemporary English Bible apparently thinks so, translating the line as: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Use your lightning as arrows to scatter my enemies and make them run&#xD;&#xA;&gt; away.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To me, though, it is likelier that it simply means people freaking out and dispersing after a scary electrical event in the sky. It appears to be of a piece with the descriptions of YHWH as a celestial warrior riding, or enthroned upon, the storm and its clouds (see 2 Samuel 22.15, Psalm 144.6, Wisdom 5.22 &amp; Zechariah 9.14 [&amp; cf. Revelation 4.5]). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**2 ⚡︎⚡︎**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the English Standard Version of **Isaiah 30.33-34**:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;the LORD will cause his majestic voice to be heard and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; descending blow of his arm to be seen,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In furious anger and a flame of devouring fire, with a cloudburst and storm and hailstones.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Assyrians will be terror-stricken at the voice of the LORD, when he strikes with his rod.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That is based primarily on the Hebrew text of this passage. The Ancient Greek translation thereof, from what is commonly called the Septuagint (or LXX) seems to suggest that God will strike the Assyrians with lightning, via the use of a *keraunós*. Here is a translation rendered from the Greek:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[T]he Lord will cause the glory of his voice to be heard and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wrath of his arm he will display with rage and fury.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And, as a devouring flame, ***keraunósei*** {he shall strike with a thunderbolt}&#xD;&#xA;&gt; violently, even as water and hail being carried together by force.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; For, by the voice of the Lord, the Assyrians shall be vanquished, even by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the calamity in which he should strike them.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even in the Septuagint, however, this looks as though, like with Psalm 144, it could simply refer to Israel's enemies being frightened by the weather, at God's behest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**3 ⚡︎⚡︎⚡︎**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In **Psalm 78.46-51** we're getting a little warmer, wherein there are animate objects which do get zapped by a fire-like substance, but these are not human beings. Referring to the plagues visited upon Egypt before the Israelite emancipation, it says that God&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;also gave their crops to the caterpillar,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And their labour to the locust.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; He destroyed their vines with hail,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And their sycamore trees with frost.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **He also gave up their cattle to the hail,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And their flocks to fiery lightning.**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; He cast on them the fierceness of his anger,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Wrath, indignation, and trouble,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; By sending messengers of destruction.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; He made a path for his anger;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; He did not spare their soul from death,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; But gave their beasts over to the plague,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And destroyed all the firstborn in Egypt,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The first of their strength in the tents of Kham.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The New English Translation makes v. 48 here much more explicit with:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He rained hail down on their cattle, and hurled lightning bolts down&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on their livestock.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarly the Good News Bible has: &quot;He killed their cattle with hail and their flocks with lightning.&quot; The expression *yasgêr*, referring to what he did with the cattle, is more passive than that, meaning that he surrendered these animals to the mercy of the storm's elements. So the New Living Translation is more like it, with: &quot;He *abandoned* their cattle to the hail, their livestock to bolts of lightning&quot; (emphasis mine). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Variations of the same expression are observable in how the crops are *yittên*, &quot;handed over,&quot; to the caterpillar and the locust in v. 46, and lives or beasts are *hisgîr*, &quot;given up,&quot; to the pestilence in v. 50. Going with the passage's context, it is rendered as more of a behind-the-scenes look at how God is the ultimate power within the forces of nature, whether via extreme weather or massively destructive pests.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nonetheless, as we have seen, at least one English Bible translation envisions the scene vividly enough to literally have God hurling down &quot;lightning bolts&quot; upon the Egyptian livestock. That verse is alluding to the seventh of the ten plagues upon Egypt: the plague of hail; and specifically in **Exodus 9.23-24**:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Moses stretched out his staff toward the sky, and YHWH sent&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thunder and hail, and fire ran along the ground. And YHWH rained&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hail upon the land of Egypt. There was hail and fire flashing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; continually in the midst of the hail, very grievous, such as had never&#xD;&#xA;&gt; been in all the land of Egypt since it became a nation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;About half of English Bibles translate the word אֵ֖שׁ, *’eish*, as &quot;lightning,&quot; such as in the International Standard Version, &quot;and lightning struck the earth&quot;. But the other half go with the word's literal meaning, &quot;fire&quot; (πῦρ, *pýr*, in the LXX), as in the New American Standard Bible: &quot;and fire ran down to the earth.&quot; The author of Psalm 78 does indeed seem to think that the &quot;fire&quot; of this plague is lightning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![&quot;The Seventh Plague,&quot; by John Martin (1823)][1]][1] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;THE FIRE OF GOD&#xD;&#xA;===============&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Cities of the Plain&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the ancient writings commonly known as the Old Testament, there are at least three stories which interpretations especially favour as lightning-strikes where the text is describing fire descending violently from the sky. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is only in the first of these stories that God is explicitly mentioned as the direct cause of the devastation: the incineration of the *‘ārey hak-kik'kār*, the &quot;cities of the plain&quot; (or &quot;cities of the valley,&quot; depending on your translation), in Genesis 19. The most famous of these cities are Sodom and Gomorrah (Admah and Zeboiim being listed together with them in Deuteronomy 29.25). According to **Genesis 19.24-25**,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; YHWH rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from YHWH out of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the heavens. So he overthrew those cities, all the plain, all the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Writing about the means of this region's devastation, the Jewish Roman writer Josephus (1st century AD) uses the Greek word for &quot;thunderbolt.&quot; According to William Whitson's translation of ***The Wars of the Jews* 4.8** (with my own translation note):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is related how, for the impiety of its inhabitants, it was burnt by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lightning [*keraunoïs kataphlêgonai*]. In consequence of which there are still the remainders of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that Divine fire, and the traces [or shadows] of the five cities are still to be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; seen: as well as the ashes growing in their fruits.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Qur’an's account of the story, God himself narrates the story, saying (in Ahmed Ali's translation of 11.82) that he &quot;turned the habitations upside down, and rained upon them stones of hardened lava in quick succession&quot;. The word *sijjīlin*, which Ali translates here as &quot;hardened lava&quot; is rendered in most other English translations as &quot;baked clay&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Pillar of Salt][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In 2018 there was a lot of buzz about a story which Evan Gough of *Universe Today* reported as: &quot;A meteor may have exploded in the air 3,700 years ago, obliterating communities near the Dead Sea&quot; (December 5th). Writing for *Forbes*, Eric Mack's title was: &quot;New Science Suggests Biblical City of Sodom was Smote [*sic*] by an Exploding Meteor&quot; (December 4th). Other publications like *The Times of Israel*, ScienceNews.org, and *Newsweek* also ran the story, which is about how this information was presented at a science conference by an archaeologist named Phillip J. Silvia, of Trinity Southwest University, who had at that point been excavating in the Dead Sea region for the preceding 13 years.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Written a century and a half before this reportage, William Smith's Bible Dictionary article &quot;Sodom&quot; says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; We may suppose... that the actual agent in the ignition and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; destruction of the cities had been of the nature of a tremendous&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thunder-storm accompanied by a discharge of meteoric stones, (and that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; these set on fire the bitumen with which the soil was saturated, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which was used in building the city...).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Job's Workmen (and Flocks)&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Book of Job makes for an interesting challenge to this Question when considering the diverging Jewish and Christian interpretations thereof, particularly when it comes to the character of Satan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a more Christian perspective, whether there is or is not lightning in Job 1 might be a moot point for your Question, since it is the archfiend enemy of God rather than God himself who is employing the use of this celestial electricity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a more Jewish perspective, Satan, a member of the divine king's court, is merely performing his official function as God's royal court prosecutor. Zealous for God's honour such as he is, he wishes to ensure than Job doesn't revere God merely on account of all the wealth, in family and possessions, with which he has been showered.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;God gives Satan the go-ahead to perform this test on his devotee, and, all in one day, Satan wipes out almost all of Job's family while Job also loses almost all his property, livestock and servants. The relevant loss for the question at hand is in **Job 1.16**, wherein a messenger rushes to report to Job that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Fire of God has fallen from the sky, and burned up the flock, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; devoured the (shepherd-)lads likewise, and I having escaped alone have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; come to tell you.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I looked this verse up in a few different languages and they all uniformly translate אֵשׁ אֱלֹהִים, *’eish ’ĕlōhîm*, using its literal meaning: &quot;(the) fire of God&quot; (or, as it were, &quot;*moto wa Mungu*&quot;; &quot;*fuego de Dios*&quot;; &quot;*[le] feu de Dieu*&quot;; &quot;*[das] Feuer Gottes*&quot;, etc.). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The very few glaring exceptions were all in English, with the HCSB and the International Standard Version each having &quot;A lightning storm&quot;, the Good News Bible saying simply &quot;Lightning&quot;, and Eugene Peterson's *The Message* going so far as &quot;Bolts of lightning&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This inclination is followed by a couple of commentators. In Charles Ellicott's 1897 *An Old Testament Commentary for English Readers* he claims that &quot;it can hardly mean anything else than lightning&quot;. Agreeing that this is &quot;undoubtedly&quot; what the fire is, the Pulpit Commentary urges comparison with **Numbers 11.1-3**, wherein אֵשׁ יְהוָה, *’eish yhwh*, the &quot;fire of YHWH,&quot; is mentioned:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt; Now when the people complained, it displeased YHWH; for YHWH heard it,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and his anger was aroused. So the fire of YHWH burned among them,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and consumed some in the outskirts of the camp. Then the people cried&#xD;&#xA;&gt; out to Moses, and when Moses prayed to YHWH, the fire was quenched. So&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he called the name of the place Taberah, because the fire of YHWH had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; burned among them.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ellicott links Job 1.16 to the devastation in Genesis 19 and both he and the Pulpit Commentary connect the same Job verse with the story &quot;Ahaziah's Soldiers&quot; (as below in the next section). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whether Satan is God's obedient agent in the Book of Job, or he's just rebelling as far as he can within the bounds of God's permission, and whether he kills Job's herds and men using lightning or something other, God himself is not portrayed as directly inflicting the harm.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Satan's choice of words in Job 1.11, shortly before he attacks, is potentially interesting, though, as he seems to interpret what happens next as God stretching forth his own hand to &quot;touch all that he [Job] has&quot;. And indeed, lo, and behold, in the next scene it is God's own fire in use. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ahaziah's Soldiers  &#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------                    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to **2 Kings 1**, King Ahaziah of Israel once sent a band of fifty of his men, together with their captain, to apprehend the prophet Elijah, who was sitting atop a hill. When the captain ordered him to descend, the prophet summoned fire from the sky to consume the captain and all fifty of his men, whereupon &quot;fire of God&quot; fell upon these soldiers, killing them all. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A second captain with his fifty men was sent and they fared just as badly. A third captain with his fifty soldiers then went out to Elijah and begged the prophet to spare their lives. An angel then instructed Elijah to go along with the soldiers to meet with the king. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As mentioned in the previous section, Charles Ellicott believes that the &quot;fire of God&quot; is lightning. Incidentally, every Bible I've come across is content to translate every reference to *’eish* in this story as simply &quot;fire.&quot; Ironically for me, the description here makes for much easier pickings in terms of references to fire falling from the sky which could plausibly and easily be seen as lightning. &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;THE LIGHT OF THE APOSTLES&#xD;&#xA;===============&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Canonical**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most of the Biblical texts collectively known as the New Testament are attributed to the Apostle Paul, who, prior to becoming a follower of Jesus Christ, was a persecutor of Jesus' disciples. In **the Acts of the Apostles 9**, he is on a mission to arrest &quot;any who were [followers] of the Way&quot; and when &quot;he came near Damascus... suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. Then he fell to the ground&quot; (vv. 3-4) and a few days later his sight was restored and he himself eventually became one of the most prominent apostles of Christ.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to TVTropes.org, &quot;Some modern Biblical scholars believe that what Paul experienced on the Road to Damascus (which sparked his conversion to Christianity) was a lightning strike.&quot; J.D. Bullock of the Wright State University School of Medicine's Department of Ophthalmology, Dayton, OH, in the 1994 article &quot;Was Saint Paul struck blind and converted by lightning?&quot;, says: &quot;Numerous theories have been proposed to account for this event which has been the subject of interest of theologians, philosophers, artists, and physicians. A lightning strike could explain all of the features of this episode.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Paul's later recollection of the event in Acts 26.12-14, the light was brighter than the midday sun, and after he and his companions had seen it, they all fell to the ground. He is the only one who appears to have been blinded, though, which seems bizarrely selective of a flash of lightning, and which I personally doubt is what is intended in this story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Apocryphal**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As it happens, however, there is a story in the Acts of Philip, one of the numerous apocryphal books of the Acts of the Apostles, in which an enemy of the apostles is explicitly blinded by lightning. The lightning-strike is, however, not upon any humans. As is typical even in the canonical scriptures, the event is *not* explicitly attributed to God, although the inference of his being responsible for it is fairly obvious.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the summary of **the Acts of Philip** (by the North American Society for the Study of Christian Apocryphal Literature [NASSCAL]), Jesus, after his resurrection and ascension to heaven, once sent Philip &quot;to Opheorymos where the people worship the Viper, the mother of the serpents.&quot; These were Ophites, a snake-worshipping Christian sect often defined as Gnostic, and in the story Philip is being sent to refute them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While in Opheorymos, in Ch. 9, &quot;the group are confronted by a dragon attended by serpents. Philip tells his companions to [sprinkle] their cups with water and sprinkle the air with the sign of the cross. The dragon and all the serpents are blinded, they dry up, and their eggs are destroyed.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The chapter's last line says that after the sign of the cross was made,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; there was as a flash of lightning which blinded the dragon and its&#xD;&#xA;&gt; brood; and they were withered up; and the rays of the sun entered the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; holes and broke the eggs. But the apostles closed their eyes, unable&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to face the lightning, and remained unhurt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Earlier in the same book there is a scene quite reminiscent of Paul's misadventure on his way to Damascus, with a hint of Elijah's encounter with Ahaziah's men. According to the NASSCAL summary, in Ch. 2, while Philip is in Athens, the Jewish high priest Ananias&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;comes to Athens with 500 strong men to capture Philip and bring&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him back to Jerusalem where their king Archelaus could kill him. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; high priest tries to strike Philip but his hand withers and he is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; blinded. The 500 men also are blinded. At Philip’s prayer, Jesus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reveals himself and the idols and demons in Athens flee. Philip heals&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ananias but he refuses to believe, so the ground swallows him up to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his neck. The 500 men, however, repent and their sight is restored.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ananias remains stubborn and sinks into the abyss.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The blinding that occurs here is connected with lightning, as the text itself says that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jesus appeared coming down in most excellent glory, and in lightning;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and His face was shining sevenfold more than the sun, and His garments&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were whiter than snow, so that also all the idols of Athens fell&#xD;&#xA;&gt; suddenly to the ground.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If this is inspired by Jesus' appearance to Paul on the Damascus Road, perhaps the Acts of Philip represents an early understanding of the light in Paul's encounter as lightning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In another apocryphal Acts book, it is a demon who threatens a lightning-strike, and maybe this could be based on Satan's devastation of Job's household. In *The Acts and Marytrdom of St Matthew the Apostle*, the demon Asmodaeus (addressed in the same text as &quot;Asmodaeus Beelzebul Satan&quot;) is forced by an angel to say to King Fulvanus of Myrna, “the city of the man-eaters,” that if he seeks to persecute Matthew,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;“we shall go, even seven unclean demons, and immediately make away&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with thee and thy whole camp, and destroy all the city with lightning,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; except those naming that awful and holy name of Christ; for wherever a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; footstep of theirs has come, thence, pursued, we flee.”&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Acording to TVTropes.org, &quot;more than one persecutor of Christian saints and martyrs was&quot; struck by lightning. &quot;The most famous example is Saint Barbara's father, Dioscorus; he had his own daughter tortured and executed for converting to Christianity despite him locking her away from the world, then he was killed by a lightning bolt later that day.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unlike Dioscorus, who is supposed to have lived about 200 years after the time of the apostles, the sufferers of lightning-strikes in the New Testament, whether canonical (if we count Paul as one) or apocryphal, merely experience the effect of its light rather than being incinerated by its heat. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If blinding by lightning doesn't count as getting &quot;smitten,&quot; then we perhaps have zero instances in any of the New Testament (inside or outside the canon) of a yes to your Question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;ʿĀD AND THAMŪD&#xD;&#xA;==============&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the same way that the cities of the plain are frequently used in the Bible as one of the ultimate cautionary tales of entire peoples who disobeyed God and were wiped out for it, so it is in the Qur’an with ʿĀd and Thamūd, whose names are variously interpreted as belonging to cities or tribes or a combination of such.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;صَاعِقَةِ, *ṣaʿiqah*, &quot;thunderbolt,&quot; the singular form of *ṣawaʿiq*, is used in Surah 41. Muhammad Muhsin Khan's translation merely trans*liter*ates this word in v. 17, providing an expansion of definitions for it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And as for Thamud, We showed and made clear to them the Path of Truth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Islamic Monotheism) through Our Messenger, (i.e. showed them the way&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of success), but they preferred blindness to guidance, so the Saʿiqah&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (a destructive awful cry, torment, hit, a thunderbolt) of disgracing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; torment seized them, because of what they used to earn.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Madain Saleh, by Sammy Six][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;*Madain Saleh photo by Sammy Six (January 15, 2012)*&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Sahih International version of 51.44:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But they were insolent toward the command of their Lord,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; So the thunderbolt seized them while they were looking on.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ahmed Ali's rendition of the same reads:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But they disobeyed the command of their Lord;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; so they were destroyed by a thunderbolt,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; and they could only gape.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For both example verses, however, there are translators who, seeming to take the cue from Khan, evidently do not understand the &quot;thunderbolt(s)&quot; as literal, preferring instead to read it/them as things like &quot;disgrace&quot;, &quot;stunning Punishment&quot;, &quot;rumbling&quot;, or, going by Abdullah Yusuf Ali, &quot;the stunning noise (of an earthquake)&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An earthquake is indeed said to have destroyed Thamūd in 7.78. Other elements are mentioned as the means by which these peoples and/or places were swept away. In Surah 69, ʿĀd is destroyed by a &quot;furious cold blast of wind&quot; which blows for seven nights &amp; eight days. It also “turned everything it touched to ashes” (51.41-42) and &quot;snatched away men as though they were palm trees pulled out by the roots&quot; (54.19-20).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some kind of overpowering blast is said to have destroyed Thamūd in 69.5, which Ahmed Ali calls &quot;a storm of thunder and lightning&quot;. In all these references, it is stated a passive event that these extreme weather phenomena obliterated the people/places rather than it necessarily being the intended action of a particular agent.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Contextually, however, it has to mean that it was God who did it, but it also doesn't sound much different from saying that God controls the weather in general (see 2.19-20, 13.12 &amp; 30.24) or causes babies to grow in their mothers' wombs and such. The one doubtlessly clear mention of the sort of thing your Question asks is noted in the first section above (*q.v.*).   &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Kvm5z.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/0P2Qm.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Z31bv.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/fxpZ7.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19831" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5935" RevisionGUID="2a8c8844-efb0-4af9-afea-1500b7e1b935" CreationDate="2019-09-27T10:32:58.363" UserId="201" Text="Yes. Heimdall and Loki slay one another.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the *Prose Edda* by Snorri Sturlson in the &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre04.htm&quot;&gt;Gylfaginning Ch 16&lt;/a&gt;, emphasis mine:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Wolf shall swallow Odin; that shall be his ending But straight&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thereafter shall Vídarr stride forth and set one foot upon the lower&#xD;&#xA;&gt; jaw of the Wolf: on that foot he has the shoe, materials for which&#xD;&#xA;&gt; have been gathering throughout all time. (They are the scraps of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; leather which men cut out: of their shoes at toe or heel; therefore he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; who desires in his heart to come to the Æsir's help should cast those&#xD;&#xA;&gt; scraps away.) With one hand he shall seize the Wolf's upper jaw and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tear his gullet asunder; and that is the death of the Wolf. **Loki shall&#xD;&#xA;&gt; have battle with Heimdallr, and each be the slayer of the other.** Then&#xD;&#xA;&gt; straightway shall Surtr cast fire over the earth and burn all the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; world; so is said in Völuspá:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Different translation &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.gutenberg.org/files/18947/18947-h/18947-h.htm#gylfe_XVI&quot;&gt;here:&lt;/a&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The wolf swallows Odin, and thus causes his death; but Vidar&#xD;&#xA;&gt; immediately turns and rushes at the wolf, placing one foot on his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; nether jaw. On this foot he has the shoe for which materials have been&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gathering through all ages, namely, the strips of leather which men&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cut off for the toes and heels of shoes; wherefore he who wishes to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; render assistance to the asas must cast these strips away. With one&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hand Vidar seizes the upper jaw of the wolf, and thus rends asunder&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his mouth. Thus the wolf perishes. **Loke fights with Heimdal, and they**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **kill each other.** Thereupon Surt flings fire over the earth and burns&#xD;&#xA;&gt; up all the world. Thus it is said in the Vala’s Prophecy.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19833" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5933" RevisionGUID="713615da-9f02-463a-889f-a0bbed8ef9fd" CreationDate="2019-09-27T14:02:31.210" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 5 characters in body; edited tags; edited tags" Text="It is believed that most gods including Odin, Thor, and multiple other gods and goddesses die at the end of Ragnarok." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19834" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5933" RevisionGUID="713615da-9f02-463a-889f-a0bbed8ef9fd" CreationDate="2019-09-27T14:02:31.210" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 5 characters in body; edited tags; edited tags" Text="|norse|ragnarok|loki|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19835" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5936" RevisionGUID="e14f2c20-140b-43fb-812b-d276f76fe122" CreationDate="2019-09-27T15:21:09.917" UserId="6339" Text="Kali is basically a  incarnation of sin god.  He is enlisted in the category of Deva-Gandharva i.e. God- and  nature spirits  [**Prajapati kashyapa**][1] is the father of Kali and  ,   kashyapa   is  son of Brahmadeva one among triad of gods.  kashyapa Prajapati gave birth  to Kali and other 15 Deva-gandharvas from his wife called  Muni. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;from the epic [**Mahabharata** ][2]we come to know about his birth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; P.134 O king, Parjanya, the fourteenth in the list, Kali, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fifteenth, and Narada, the sixteenth--these Devas and Gandharvas are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; known to be the sons of Muni (Daksha's daughter as mentioned before).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He was born at the time of creation by God Brahma . Brahma gave birth to Prajapatis and instructed to increase their offspring on earth , these prjapati begot many children. So he was born during at the time of  primary creation of species on earth , before  humans .&#xD;&#xA;Kali  is the ruler of  Kali Yuga i.e. his effects will be more prominent during this cycle of ages  and he will be brought down from his reign  by  Kalki , a future avatara of Vishnu.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashyapa&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01066.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19836" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5937" RevisionGUID="127fba37-2ba7-4d71-89ec-23f52dcb97ce" CreationDate="2019-09-27T15:36:39.597" UserId="6370" Text="**Too long for a comment :**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*I don't see how cross cultural contamination could have happened on this large of a scale.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It all started with [Alexander the Great](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great) of Macedon [conquering](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_conquests_in_India) the former [Persian Empire](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaemenid_Empire), which [extended](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaemenid_conquest_of_the_Indus_Valley) until the [Indus river](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_River) to the east. &#xD;&#xA;___&#xD;&#xA;The following encyclopedic articles should help shed enough light on the tremendous extent of the mutual influence between the two great ancient civilizations :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Hellenistic period: Greco-Bactrians](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic_period#Greco-Bactrians)&#xD;&#xA; - [Greco-Bactrian Kingdom](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Bactrian_Kingdom)&#xD;&#xA;- [Hellenistic period: Indo-Greek kingdoms](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic_period#Indo-Greek_kingdoms)&#xD;&#xA; - [Indo-Greek Kingdom](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greek_Kingdom)&#xD;&#xA; - [Indo-Greek religions](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greek_religions)&#xD;&#xA; - [Sources of Indo-Greek history](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sources_of_Indo-Greek_history)&#xD;&#xA;- [Hellenistic influence on Indian art](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic_influence_on_Indian_art)&#xD;&#xA;- [Greco-Buddhism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhism)&#xD;&#xA; - [Greco-Buddhist art](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhist_art)&#xD;&#xA; - [Greco-Buddhist monasticism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhist_monasticism)&#xD;&#xA;- [Indo-Roman relations](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Roman_relations)&#xD;&#xA; - [Indo-Roman trade relations](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Roman_trade_relations)&#xD;&#xA; - [Buddhism and the Roman world](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_the_Roman_world)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It would be pointless to include here the countless artifacts and historical figures, either religious or secular, associated with the aforementioned cultural syncretism. All in all, the presence of **swastikas in ancient Greece** actually makes perfect sense within the [much larger historical context](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_European_exploration_of_Asia#Antiquity) sketched above." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19837" PostHistoryTypeId="16" PostId="5937" RevisionGUID="79af0c5b-0044-4c3e-85b7-8b2f216c707f" CreationDate="2019-09-27T15:36:39.597" UserId="6370" />
  <row Id="19838" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5936" RevisionGUID="764e850f-a98c-4dfd-bea1-4a28ba07168d" CreationDate="2019-09-27T15:39:40.910" UserId="6339" Comment="answer updated " Text="Kali is basically a  incarnation of sin god.  He is enlisted in the category of Deva-Gandharva i.e. God- and  nature spirits  [**Prajapati kashyapa**][1] is the father of Kali and  ,   kashyapa   is  son of Brahmadeva one among triad of gods.  kashyapa Prajapati gave birth  to Kali and other 15 Deva-gandharvas from his wife called  Muni. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;from the epic [**Mahabharata** ][2]we come to know about his birth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; P.134 O king, Parjanya, the fourteenth in the list, Kali, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fifteenth, and Narada, the sixteenth--these Devas and Gandharvas are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; known to be the sons of Muni (Daksha's daughter as mentioned before).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He was born at the time of creation by God Brahma . Brahma gave birth to Prajapatis and instructed to increase their offspring on earth , these prjapati begot many children. So he was born during at the time of  primary creation of species on earth , before  humans .&#xD;&#xA;But he started his reign just after Krishna departed from the earth to heaven. &#xD;&#xA;Kali  is the ruler of  Kali Yuga i.e. his effects will be more prominent during this cycle of ages  and he will be brought down from his reign  by  Kalki , a future avatara of Vishnu.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashyapa&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01066.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19839" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5938" RevisionGUID="3e2553a8-5e8f-42dd-8662-0564d96f8b58" CreationDate="2019-09-27T20:01:47.797" UserId="6373" Text="Melanippe. Among others, [the Wikipedia page references a Melanippe that is an Amazon, a sister of Hippolyta, Penthesilea and Antiope, and a daughter of Ares][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, I've only been able to find one original source that mentions who Melanippe is: [Apollodorus' Epitome][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What source makes the claim that Melanippe is a sister of Hippolyta, Penthesilea, and Antiope, and not just another name for Antiope?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanippe&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0022:text=Epitome:book=E:chapter=1&amp;highlight=melanippe" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19840" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5938" RevisionGUID="3e2553a8-5e8f-42dd-8662-0564d96f8b58" CreationDate="2019-09-27T20:01:47.797" UserId="6373" Text="What source makes the claim that Melanippe is a sister of Hippolyta, Penthesilea, and Antiope, and not just another name for Antiope?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19841" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5938" RevisionGUID="3e2553a8-5e8f-42dd-8662-0564d96f8b58" CreationDate="2019-09-27T20:01:47.797" UserId="6373" Text="|greek|ares|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19842" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5939" RevisionGUID="aee929f2-4687-4ea2-9280-2988d63d9fd2" CreationDate="2019-09-28T08:10:41.640" UserId="4142" Text="&quot;Decifra-me ou te devoro&quot; uses wording that cannot be very old and also has a distinct literary ring.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Decipher&quot; originally meant being able to read/understand the arabic numerals, &quot;cifres&quot;, which was enlarged into an ability to read unshapely hand-writig.The point it is that it relates to *text* which is not the case of the original story about solving a riddle. It is totally improbable that some older translation would have used 'decipher', so this form has  been coined in more recent times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The repeated  syllab &quot;de&quot; and the (a)symmetry me/te might have a barely notable presence but they should be credited for the popularity of the formula." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19843" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="5911" RevisionGUID="90a21def-7ed5-4c2b-9af6-391c026bb466" CreationDate="2019-09-28T09:48:33.033" UserId="57" Comment="94" />
  <row Id="19844" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5926" RevisionGUID="5ab2d855-3a4f-4fd1-8cc8-76831a8684ac" CreationDate="2019-09-28T22:39:40.917" UserId="57" Comment="added 22 characters in body" Text="The oldest written source for this is Sophocles' &quot;Oedipus Rex&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Oedipus found Thebes plagued by the Sphinx, who put a riddle to all passersby and destroyed those who could not answer. Oedipus solved the riddle, and the Sphinx killed herself. There is no equivalent story in Ancient Egyptian mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Greek text (excerpt): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ἐπεί, φέρ᾽ εἰπέ, ποῦ σὺ μάντις εἶ σαφής;  &#xD;&#xA;πῶς οὐκ, ὅθ᾽ ἡ ῥαψῳδὸς ἐνθάδ᾽ ἦν κύων,  &#xD;&#xA;ηὔδας τι τοῖσδ᾽ ἀστοῖσιν ἐκλυτήριον;  &#xD;&#xA;καίτοι τό γ᾽ αἴνιγμ᾽ οὐχὶ τοὐπιόντος ἦν  &#xD;&#xA;ἀνδρὸς διειπεῖν, ἀλλὰ μαντείας ἔδει:  &#xD;&#xA;ἣν οὔτ᾽ ἀπ᾽ οἰωνῶν σὺ προυφάνης ἔχων  &#xD;&#xA;οὔτ᾽ ἐκ θεῶν του γνωτόν: ἀλλ᾽ ἐγὼ μολών,  &#xD;&#xA;ὁ μηδὲν εἰδὼς Οἰδίπους, ἔπαυσά νιν,  &#xD;&#xA;γνώμῃ κυρήσας οὐδ᾽ ἀπ᾽, οἰωνῶν μαθών:  &#xD;&#xA;ὃν δὴ σὺ πειρᾷς ἐκβαλεῖν, δοκῶν θρόνοις  &#xD;&#xA;παραστατήσειν τοῖς Κρεοντείοις πέλας.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you are looking for the [original text translated into English](http://johnstoniatexts.x10host.com/sophocles/oedipusthekinghtml.html), it's between lines 390 and 400&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19846" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5941" RevisionGUID="ba5a1fb2-ef76-4e69-9e10-b89957c35e6e" CreationDate="2019-09-29T04:31:03.617" UserId="2682" Text="According to **Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautica* 2.966ff**, Heracles, while performing his ninth task, which required him to obtain Hippolyta's girdle, captured &quot;Melanippe, daughter of Ares,&quot; and as a trade, &quot;Hippolyte gave him her glistening girdle as her sister's ransom,&quot; whereupon Heracles let Melanippe go free, unharmed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Amazon leader with whom Antiope is usually confused, or identified, is Hippolyta. Writing a couple of centuries after Apollonius' time, **Diodorus Siculus**, in the ***Library of History* 4.28.1** explains the reason that the Amazons attacked Athens during the reign of King Theseus: &quot;They were especially eager to punish the Athenians because Theseus had made a slave of Antiope, the leader of the Amazons, or, as others write, of Hippolyta.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Diodorus clouds the issue over a little bit further in his narration of Heracles' ninth task earlier on in **4.16**, at the beginning of which he tells us that &quot;Heracles then received a command to bring back the girdle of Hippolyta the Amazon and so made the expedition against the Amazons.&quot; At the end of the chapter, 4.16.3-4:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The commander of the Amazons, Melanippe, who was also greatly admired&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for her manly courage, now lost her supremacy. And Heracles, after...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; killing the most renowned of the Amazons and forcing the remaining&#xD;&#xA;&gt; multitude to turn in flight, cut down the greater number of them... As&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for the captives, he gave Antiope as a gift to Theseus and set&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Melanippe free, accepting her girdle as her ransom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a little bit bewildering, since Diodorus, after the beginning of the chapter, where he has told us that the famous girdle belongs to &quot;Hippolyta the Amazon&quot;, never mentions Hippolyta again. And now at the end he seems (suddenly?) to be saying that the girdle belongs to Melanippe, &quot;the commander of the Amazons,&quot; who, it seems, contrary to Apollonius Rhodius' account, uses this prize to ransom herself rather than anyone else.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps another way to interpret the sentence could be that the &quot;her&quot; here refers all the way back to Hippolyta at the chapter's beginning, so that Theseus receives Antiope as a prize while Hippolyta uses her girdle to ransom Melanippe. It's either that or we'd have to assume that Diodorus understands Melanippe to be another name for Hippolyta. He otherwise never says anything about the familial relationship, if any, between Hippolyta, Antiope and Melanippe, nor does he mention any genetic connection between them and Ares.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***The History of the World***, the work of **Pompeius Trogus**, a Gaulish contemporary of Diodorus Siculus, survives in the ***Epitome*** which a Latin historian named **Justin** made of it. According to this Epitome, when Hercules [Heracles] came to the land of the Amazons, they were ruled over by two sisters: Antiope and Orithyia, who themselves had two *other* sisters, namely Menalippe and Hippolyta. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Menalippe, whose name has got to be a mangled form of *Melanippe*, having been captured by Hercules, was ransomed by Antiope, who gave to the invader her arms rather than her girdle. (Hercules' mission in this version is to capture arms; no mention of a girdle is made.) Hippolyta is the Amazon whom Theseus makes his wife in this rendition of the story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Orithyia is said to be the daughter of a previous queen named Marpesia. Presumably the other sisters are also Marpesia's daughters. The *Epitome* implies that the idea that the Amazons are daughters of the war-god is based merely on a report spread about by Marpesia and her co-queen Lampedo. *The History of the World* Epitome says that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; After Orithya, Penthesilea occupied the throne, of whose valour there&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were seen great proofs among the bravest heroes in the Trojan War,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; when she led an auxiliary force thither against the Greeks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We are never told here in what way Penthesilea might be related to the previous queens, assuming she is supposed to be.     " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19851" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5580" RevisionGUID="8733ecd0-7429-47d2-b972-537d339f7002" CreationDate="2019-09-29T16:34:22.113" UserId="1317" Comment="Typo" Text="OK, so there are a couple of misconceptions here. First, as Codosaur has already pointed out, [Cronus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus) and [Chronos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronos) aren't necessarily the same being -- they just have similar names.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the other hand, Cronus and Chronos were confused with each other even in antiquity. In fact the Roman god [Saturn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_(mythology)), who the Romans associated with the Greek god Cronus, was sometimes regarded as a god of Time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This gives us a reason to address the more fundamental misconception -- even if we're allowed to conflate the Titan Cronus with the personnification of Time, this doesn't grant him some sort of &quot;superpower&quot; to turn back time.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt; _Tempus edax rerum, tuque, invidiosa vetustas, omnia destruitis vitiataque dentibus aevi paulatim lenta consumitis omnia morte!_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt; _(O Time, devourer of all things, and envious Age, together you destroy all that exists and, slowly gnawing, bring on lingering death.)_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Ovid, Metamorphoses, 15, Tr. Brookes Moore, availableat the [Theoi Project](https://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses15.html))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ancient Greeks and Romans didn't think of time as something that could be reversed -- this is in line with the [fatalism](https://www.britannica.com/topic/fatalism) that expresses itself time after time in their mythology. You couldn't cheat fate by going back in time and changing things. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Instead, Time was regarded as a force that devours everything and wears it away to nothing. This may have been something Goya had in mind when  he painted his famous painting of Saturn:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Francisco Goya, Saturn Devouring his Son](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Francisco_de_Goya%2C_Saturno_devorando_a_su_hijo_%281819-1823%29.jpg)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Source: Wikimedia Commons)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, we can answer why Zeus won. The most facile reason is that he was fated to do so, because Fate already ruled the gods. More to the point, Zeus had some powerful allies. His mother Rhea, whose strategies had kept Zeus from being swallowed alog with his brothers and sisters. He had his brothers and sisters, whom Cronus had vomited up after Zeus gave him the drink Rhea concocted  for the purpose. The Cyclopes and a couple of titans such as Prometheus allied with Zeus. Most important were the [Hekatonchires](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecatoncheires) or &quot;Hundred-handed ones&quot; imprisoned by Cronus's father Ouranos: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;But when first their father was vexed in his heart with Briareus and Cottus and Gyes, he bound them in cruel bonds, because he was jealous of their exceeding manhood and comeliness and great size: and he made them live beneath the wide-pathed earth, where they were afflicted, being set to dwell under the ground, at the end of the earth, at its great borders, in bitter anguish for a long time and with great grief at heart. But the son of Cronos and the other deathless gods whom rich-haired Rhea bare from union with Cronos, brought them up again to the light at Earth's advising. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;And blameless Cottus answered him again: `Divine one, you speak that which we know well: nay, even of ourselves we know that your wisdom and understanding is exceeding, and that you became a defender of the deathless ones from chill doom. And through your devising we are come back again from the murky gloom and from our merciless bonds, enjoying what we looked not for, O lord, son of Cronos. And so now with fixed purpose and deliberate counsel we will aid your power in dreadful strife and will fight against the Titans in hard battle.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And amongst the foremost Cottus and Briareos and Gyes insatiate for war raised fierce fighting: three hundred rocks, one upon another, they launched from their strong hands and overshadowed the Titans with their missiles, and buried them beneath the wide-pathed earth, and bound them in bitter chains when they had conquered them by their strength for all their great spirit, as far beneath the earth to Tartarus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(The Theogony of Hesiod. tr. Hugh G. Evelyn-White, lines 617 ff.), at http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19852" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3194" RevisionGUID="fdf9a667-d892-4830-ac1b-fae7448f6bda" CreationDate="2019-09-29T19:01:20.263" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="19857" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5944" RevisionGUID="5fed5094-df7d-4dd8-b0e5-104d67a51a77" CreationDate="2019-09-30T17:57:30.453" UserId="4022" Text="Short version: the assignment was more astrological than religious, insofar as such things can be separated out.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The oldest explanation I can find of the now-standard day names is from Cassius Dio, second century CE, though the names are referenced earlier (Tibullus, first century BCE). Dio claims the system was developed by the Egyptians, but most likely the Egyptians adopted it from the Babylonians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Dio, the cycle &quot;Saturday, Sunday, Monday&quot; etc comes from astrology. In other words, the days aren't associated with the gods directly, but with the *planets*, which are then astrologically connected to the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the classical geocentric model, there were seven planets: Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sol, Venus, Mercury, Luna. Saturn was the farthest away, while Luna was the closest. As Dio explains it, each hour was governed by one of these planets. (This is one reason historians think the model started with the Babylonians—they were the ones who divided the day into twenty-four hours.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *τὰς ὥρας τῆς ἡμέρας καὶ τῆς νυκτὸς ἀπὸ τῆς πρώτης ἀρξάμενος ἀριθμεῖν, καὶ ἐκείνην μὲν τῷ Κρόνῳ διδούς, τὴν δὲ ἔπειτα τῷ Διί, καὶ τρίτην Ἄρει, τετάρτην ἡλίῳ, πέμπτην Ἀφροδίτῃ, ἕκτην Ἑρμῇ, καὶ ἑβδόμην σελήνῃ,*  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; If you start enumerating the hours of the day and night, starting from the first one, and assign the first one to Cronus, the second to Zeus, the third to Ares, the fourth to Helios, the fifth to Aphroditë, the sixth to Hermes, and the seventh to Selenë,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *κατὰ τὴν τάξιν τῶν κύκλων καθ᾿ ἣν οἱ Αἰγύπτιοι αὐτὴν νομίζουσι, καὶ τοῦτο καὶ αὖθις ποιήσας, πάσας τε οὕτω τὰς τέσσαρας καὶ εἴκοσιν ὥρας περιελθών, εὑρήσεις τὴν πρώτην τῆς ἐπιούσης ἡμέρας ὥραν ἐς τὸν ἥλιον ἀφικνουμένην.*  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; according to the order of the cycles that were developed by the Egyptians, and if you do all this again, going through the full twenty-four hours, you'll discover that the first hour of the second day is assigned to Helios.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *καὶ τοῦτο καὶ ἐπ᾿ ἐκείνων τῶν τεσσάρων καὶ εἴκοσιν ὡρῶν κατὰ τὸν αὐτὸν τοῖς πρόσθε λόγον πράξας, τῇ σελήνῃ τὴν πρώτην τῆς τρίτης ἡμέρας ὥραν ἀναθήσεις, κἂν οὕτω καὶ διὰ τῶν λοιπῶν πορεύῃ, τὸν προσήκοντα ἑαυτῇ θεὸν ἑκάστη ἡμέρα λήψεται.*  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And if you do all that again in just the same way for the next twenty-four hours, then the first hour of the third day will be given to Selenë, and if you keep going through the remaining days, each and every day will be assigned its respective god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *ταῦτα μὲν οὕτω παραδέδοται.*  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; So, that is the traditional way of it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Dio XXXVII.19, translation mine)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That is, each hour is assigned to one of the planets, in order; since 24 ≅ 3 mod 7, each day starts three places further around the cycle. So if you assign each _day_ to a planet, based on its first hour, you get Saturn, Sol, Luna, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When different cultures adopted this system, they fit their own gods into it as best they could, but used the same assignment to planets. According to the astrologers, for instance, the planet Jupiter was associated with strength and storms (rather than e.g. kingship), so the Germanic peoples connected it with their god Thor. &quot;Tuesday&quot; was the day of Tyr (Germanic), Mars (Roman), Ares (Greek), or Nergal (Babylonian), &quot;Friday&quot; was the day of Freyja (Germanic), Venus (Roman), Aphroditë (Greek), or Ištar (Babylonian), and so on." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19858" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5945" RevisionGUID="313eada1-b1f9-4e13-9d7e-7facaede0007" CreationDate="2019-09-30T21:54:37.963" UserId="6379" Text="God (or a genie, or whatever) promised to a guy he would grant him a wish, under the condition that the neighbour of the guy would have been granted a DOUBLE wish.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The guy thought deeply, and finally asked: &quot;Let me blind to an eye&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This story is very deep, and human psychology seems to be rooted in this kind of behaviour. I am also interested in variants of this story. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With references, of course!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19859" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5945" RevisionGUID="313eada1-b1f9-4e13-9d7e-7facaede0007" CreationDate="2019-09-30T21:54:37.963" UserId="6379" Text="&quot;Let me blind to an eye&quot;. What is the origin of the following story?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19860" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5945" RevisionGUID="313eada1-b1f9-4e13-9d7e-7facaede0007" CreationDate="2019-09-30T21:54:37.963" UserId="6379" Text="|source-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19861" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5946" RevisionGUID="3872319f-8f2b-4281-ad8a-f624728ad6c1" CreationDate="2019-10-01T04:09:31.350" UserId="3341" Text="[Sorry about the long hyperlink, but system won't let me use TinyURL and I can't find an alternative on SE.]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not sure how &quot;deep&quot; these stories are - they seem to be longer expressions of the age-old saying, &quot;Cut off your nose to spite your face&quot;, meaning, &quot;hurt oneself in the course of trying to hurt another more&quot;. It's in the news every day. And, I suspect, part of everyone's life at some time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. https://books.google.com/books?id=ilKje10eRksC&amp;pg=PA100&amp;lpg=PA100&amp;dq=genie,+wishes+to+be+blinded+in+one+eye&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=LXsO5emeTt&amp;sig=ACfU3U2N0reVsdrlDMgZq0qVIjLWV2RTww&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwjojuea4fnkAhUhrVkKHccVDTkQ6AEwAHoECAUQAQ#v=onepage&amp;q=genie%2C%20wishes%20to%20be%20blinded%20in%20one%20eye&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **The Gridlock Economy: How Too Much Ownership Wrecks Markets, Stops ...** By Michael Heller&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; A genie offers an [ ]entrepreneur one wish. Any wish. Big smiles. Then,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the genie gives one condition: “Whatever you wish for, your neighbor&#xD;&#xA;&gt; will get double.” Frowns. The entrepreneur thinks and thinks.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eventually, the smile returns. “I wish that you blind me in one eye.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Using basic search terms in Google, multiple hits were found. The earliest was 1921. However, the use of specific groups rather than generic peoples causes me to decline to post them. One version was quite 'twisted' - as are some versions in life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://mentalfloss.com/article/554980/scientific-facts-about-spite&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**10 Scientific Facts About Spite**&#xD;&#xA;BY NEEL V PATEL&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4. SPITEFUL BEHAVIOR COULD BE A SIGN OF PSYCHOPATHY. In psychology, the dark triad of personality traits are psychopathy (the inability to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; experience emotions like remorse, empathy, and be social with others),&#xD;&#xA;&gt; narcissism (the obsession with one’s self), and Machiavellianism&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (willingness to be duplicitous and disregard morality to achieve one’s&#xD;&#xA;&gt; own goals).&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In 2014, researchers at Washington State University, led by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; psychologist David Marcus, had more than 1200 participants take a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; personality test, in which they were presented with 17 statements like&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&quot;I would be willing to take a punch if it meant that someone I did not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; like would receive two punches&quot;** and &quot;If my neighbor complained about&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the appearance of my front yard, I would be tempted to make it look&#xD;&#xA;&gt; worse just to annoy him or her,&quot; then had to indicate how much they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; agreed with those statements.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The results, published in Psychological Assessment, showed that high&#xD;&#xA;&gt; scores in spitefulness correlated highly with psychopathy as well,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; along with the other two dark triad traits.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19862" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5946" RevisionGUID="28ba5ae4-662f-4e74-a45f-6c953033d20e" CreationDate="2019-10-01T04:40:06.687" UserId="3341" Comment="added 50 characters in body" Text="[Sorry about the long hyperlink, but system won't let me use TinyURL and I can't find an alternative on SE.]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not sure how &quot;deep&quot; these stories are [Unless you meant deeply embedded in human nature]. They seem to be longer expressions of the age-old saying, &quot;Cut off your nose to spite your face&quot;, meaning, &quot;hurt oneself in the course of trying to hurt another more&quot;. It's in the news every day. And, I suspect, part of everyone's life at some time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. https://books.google.com/books?id=ilKje10eRksC&amp;pg=PA100&amp;lpg=PA100&amp;dq=genie,+wishes+to+be+blinded+in+one+eye&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=LXsO5emeTt&amp;sig=ACfU3U2N0reVsdrlDMgZq0qVIjLWV2RTww&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwjojuea4fnkAhUhrVkKHccVDTkQ6AEwAHoECAUQAQ#v=onepage&amp;q=genie%2C%20wishes%20to%20be%20blinded%20in%20one%20eye&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **The Gridlock Economy: How Too Much Ownership Wrecks Markets, Stops ...** By Michael Heller&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; A genie offers an [ ]entrepreneur one wish. Any wish. Big smiles. Then,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the genie gives one condition: “Whatever you wish for, your neighbor&#xD;&#xA;&gt; will get double.” Frowns. The entrepreneur thinks and thinks.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eventually, the smile returns. “I wish that you blind me in one eye.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Using basic search terms in Google, multiple hits were found. The earliest was 1921. However, the use of specific groups rather than generic peoples causes me to decline to post them. One version was quite 'twisted' - as are some versions in life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://mentalfloss.com/article/554980/scientific-facts-about-spite&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**10 Scientific Facts About Spite**&#xD;&#xA;BY NEEL V PATEL&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4. SPITEFUL BEHAVIOR COULD BE A SIGN OF PSYCHOPATHY. In psychology, the dark triad of personality traits are psychopathy (the inability to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; experience emotions like remorse, empathy, and be social with others),&#xD;&#xA;&gt; narcissism (the obsession with one’s self), and Machiavellianism&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (willingness to be duplicitous and disregard morality to achieve one’s&#xD;&#xA;&gt; own goals).&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In 2014, researchers at Washington State University, led by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; psychologist David Marcus, had more than 1200 participants take a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; personality test, in which they were presented with 17 statements like&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&quot;I would be willing to take a punch if it meant that someone I did not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; like would receive two punches&quot;** and &quot;If my neighbor complained about&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the appearance of my front yard, I would be tempted to make it look&#xD;&#xA;&gt; worse just to annoy him or her,&quot; then had to indicate how much they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; agreed with those statements.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The results, published in Psychological Assessment, showed that high&#xD;&#xA;&gt; scores in spitefulness correlated highly with psychopathy as well,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; along with the other two dark triad traits.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19863" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5946" RevisionGUID="8b30633a-80a7-47c2-9c87-9fe6e61a79de" CreationDate="2019-10-01T04:49:57.157" UserId="3341" Comment="added 50 characters in body" Text="[Sorry about the long hyperlink, but system won't let me use TinyURL and I can't find an alternative on SE.]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Edit:** +1 - Thanks for the search...it's 'under my skin' and has me in personal review mode. On the spiritual path, these connections are gold.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not sure how &quot;deep&quot; these stories are [Unless you meant deeply embedded in human nature]. They seem to be longer expressions of the age-old saying, &quot;Cut off your nose to spite your face&quot;, meaning, &quot;hurt oneself in the course of trying to hurt another more&quot;. It's in the news every day. And, I suspect, part of everyone's life at some time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. https://books.google.com/books?id=ilKje10eRksC&amp;pg=PA100&amp;lpg=PA100&amp;dq=genie,+wishes+to+be+blinded+in+one+eye&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=LXsO5emeTt&amp;sig=ACfU3U2N0reVsdrlDMgZq0qVIjLWV2RTww&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwjojuea4fnkAhUhrVkKHccVDTkQ6AEwAHoECAUQAQ#v=onepage&amp;q=genie%2C%20wishes%20to%20be%20blinded%20in%20one%20eye&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **The Gridlock Economy: How Too Much Ownership Wrecks Markets, Stops ...** By Michael Heller&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; A genie offers an [ ]entrepreneur one wish. Any wish. Big smiles. Then,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the genie gives one condition: “Whatever you wish for, your neighbor&#xD;&#xA;&gt; will get double.” Frowns. The entrepreneur thinks and thinks.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eventually, the smile returns. “I wish that you blind me in one eye.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Using basic search terms in Google, multiple hits were found. The earliest was 1921. However, the use of specific groups rather than generic peoples causes me to decline to post them. One version was quite 'twisted' - as are some versions in life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://mentalfloss.com/article/554980/scientific-facts-about-spite&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**10 Scientific Facts About Spite**&#xD;&#xA;BY NEEL V PATEL&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4. SPITEFUL BEHAVIOR COULD BE A SIGN OF PSYCHOPATHY. In psychology, the dark triad of personality traits are psychopathy (the inability to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; experience emotions like remorse, empathy, and be social with others),&#xD;&#xA;&gt; narcissism (the obsession with one’s self), and Machiavellianism&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (willingness to be duplicitous and **disregard morality to achieve one’s&#xD;&#xA;&gt; own goals**).&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In 2014, researchers at Washington State University, led by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; psychologist David Marcus, had more than 1200 participants take a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; personality test, in which they were presented with 17 statements like&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&quot;I would be willing to take a punch if it meant that someone I did not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; like would receive two punches&quot;** and &quot;If my neighbor complained about&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the appearance of my front yard, I would be tempted to make it look&#xD;&#xA;&gt; worse just to annoy him or her,&quot; then had to indicate how much they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; agreed with those statements.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The results, published in Psychological Assessment, showed that high&#xD;&#xA;&gt; scores in spitefulness correlated highly with psychopathy as well,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; along with the other two dark triad traits.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19864" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5947" RevisionGUID="020a0a56-59aa-482a-bcf9-9e9dae6ebe47" CreationDate="2019-10-01T18:43:12.030" UserId="6382" Text="If we look at the Red Book of Hergest we can see that it is not clearer in the original text&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://www.rhyddiaithganoloesol.caerdydd.ac.uk/en/ms-page.php?ms=Jesus111&amp;page=155r&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A gỽr du maỽr a|wely&#xD;&#xA;ympenn yr orsed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Literally &quot;You will see a big black man atop the mound&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Will Parker, who has published his own translations of the Mabinogi tales&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://www.mabinogion.info/owain.htm#footnote30&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; NB: When a person is described as ‘black’ in medieval Welsh literature, it usually denotes someone with black hair, and has no particular racial connotations. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19865" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5948" RevisionGUID="94999c68-ff98-46b4-94c1-d093a121efbb" CreationDate="2019-10-02T00:18:47.763" UserId="6383" Text="I'm looking specifically for the idea that it is the human condition to be a combination of beast and God, not just a reference to an individual who unlike most people had aspects of both, or a mythical creature with aspects of both. I'm sure I found an answer after much searching last time I looked into this, but now I can't find it again." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19866" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5948" RevisionGUID="94999c68-ff98-46b4-94c1-d093a121efbb" CreationDate="2019-10-02T00:18:47.763" UserId="6383" Text="What is the origin of the idea that Man is &quot;half god and half beast&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19867" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5948" RevisionGUID="94999c68-ff98-46b4-94c1-d093a121efbb" CreationDate="2019-10-02T00:18:47.763" UserId="6383" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19871" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="2853" RevisionGUID="a0850bc3-c442-4abe-8d3d-153a6ab6b4f2" CreationDate="2019-10-02T03:43:50.740" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="19872" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5950" RevisionGUID="174830dc-6455-4de0-8fd1-553c2b946d25" CreationDate="2019-10-03T02:03:11.763" UserId="2682" Text="I think it reasonable to conclude that indeed Styx could swear by her own name. The basic criterion making one eligible to swear this oath is for the swearer to be one of the gods, which she definitely is. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Ceremony**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod's *Theogony* suggests that she would also be required to participate in a libation ceremony in which she pours her own water out as an offering, apparently to herself but also to fellow inhabitants of the Underworld who are older than herself. Homer's *Iliad* suggests that these would be her uncle Kronos [Cronus] and the other Titans imprisoned in Tartaros [Tartarus], who are worshipped by the Olympians similarly to how certain humans venerate their ancestors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod never explicitly says that the swearing god must drink Styx water during the libation but it is typical of such an offering (as it is of other types of sacrifice as well), especially in Ancient Greece, for the devotee to partake of a portion of what is offered. This⁠—drinking her own water⁠—would be, to me, the only particularly weird thing that Styx would have to do in order to swear the dread oath containing her own name (assuming that it's actually so mandatory to begin with).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Words**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Examples of Styx oath formulae sworn by certain deities in mythography, suggest, however, that the Olympians held the names of the most ancient members of their kind, the primaeval divinities who formed portions of the structure of the universe, to be just as sacred as that of the Underworld River of Abomination.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In sources as old as the *Iliad*, the *Odyssey* and the Homeric Hymns, we encounter things like Hera swearing to Zeus, in the same oath, not only by Styx, &quot;the greatest, most formidable oath among the blessed gods,&quot; but also by Gaia (Earth), Ouranos [Uranus] (Heaven/ Sky) and by Zeus' own head! (See *Iliad* 15.36.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Homeric Hymn to Delian Apollo 84, the goddess Leto, while making a promise to the island of Delos, uses Hera's *Iliad* formula verbatim:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now let Gaia be my witness, and the wide Ouranos above us, and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; down-flowing waters of Styx...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And it isn't only the gods who actually lived on Mt Olympos [Olympus] who used this oath. In *Odyssey* 5.182, the sea-nymph Kalypso [Calypso], makes an oath to Odysseus in what gives us yet another instance of the formula we've seen being used by Hera and Leto in other Homeric literature: by Earth, Heaven, and the waters of Hate. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In much later mythography, Nonnus' *Dionysiaca*⁠—which, where it can, likes to allude to (or imitate) the *Iliad*⁠—has Aphrodite causing Poseidon and Dionysos [Dionysus] to swear &quot;by Kronides [Zeus] and Gaia, by Aither [Aether] and the floods of Styx&quot; (42.526-528). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The formula has essentially been duplicated, with the name of Kronides standing in for Zeus's head (from *Iliad* 15), and Aither replacing Ouranos. Aither, the clear, pure air above the clouds, which only the gods could breathe safely, is a primordial deity who, though associated with the Sky, is older than Ouranos (or thus he seems to appear to be in the *Theogony*). Meanwhile in Homeric poetry Gaia's name always comes first, but here Nonnus has given priority to Zeus.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Logistics of Importance**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Conceivably, if Styx needed to swear a solemn oath, she could simply invoke Earth, Sky (or Aether) and Zeus, leaving her own name out. Nevertheless it is not absurd for a deity to invoke her/his own name in such a ceremony. Or at least it is not completely unheard of; and the best example for this that I can think of comes from the Bible, in which a similar principle as that expressed in the aforementioned Greek texts applies. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The idea is to call upon the highest, most revered or most powerful witness to acknowledge one's oath, as an indication that one unequivocally means to keep his word. In Hebrews 6.13-14, God invokes himself to witness the promise He makes to Abraham: &quot;since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself&quot; (which in turn is a reference to Genesis 22.16 &amp; Exodus 32.13).  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19873" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5926" RevisionGUID="e2a3774a-e3ba-4f3b-9a4d-031eecc7751d" CreationDate="2019-10-04T09:05:09.613" UserId="5511" Comment="added 13 characters in body" Text="The oldest written source for a riddling sphinx is Sophocles' &quot;Oedipus Rex&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Oedipus found Thebes plagued by the Sphinx, who put a riddle to all passersby and destroyed those who could not answer. Oedipus solved the riddle, and the Sphinx killed herself. There is no equivalent story in Ancient Egyptian mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Greek text (excerpt): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ἐπεί, φέρ᾽ εἰπέ, ποῦ σὺ μάντις εἶ σαφής;  &#xD;&#xA;πῶς οὐκ, ὅθ᾽ ἡ ῥαψῳδὸς ἐνθάδ᾽ ἦν κύων,  &#xD;&#xA;ηὔδας τι τοῖσδ᾽ ἀστοῖσιν ἐκλυτήριον;  &#xD;&#xA;καίτοι τό γ᾽ αἴνιγμ᾽ οὐχὶ τοὐπιόντος ἦν  &#xD;&#xA;ἀνδρὸς διειπεῖν, ἀλλὰ μαντείας ἔδει:  &#xD;&#xA;ἣν οὔτ᾽ ἀπ᾽ οἰωνῶν σὺ προυφάνης ἔχων  &#xD;&#xA;οὔτ᾽ ἐκ θεῶν του γνωτόν: ἀλλ᾽ ἐγὼ μολών,  &#xD;&#xA;ὁ μηδὲν εἰδὼς Οἰδίπους, ἔπαυσά νιν,  &#xD;&#xA;γνώμῃ κυρήσας οὐδ᾽ ἀπ᾽, οἰωνῶν μαθών:  &#xD;&#xA;ὃν δὴ σὺ πειρᾷς ἐκβαλεῖν, δοκῶν θρόνοις  &#xD;&#xA;παραστατήσειν τοῖς Κρεοντείοις πέλας.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you are looking for the [original text translated into English](http://johnstoniatexts.x10host.com/sophocles/oedipusthekinghtml.html), it's between lines 390 and 400&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19874" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5951" RevisionGUID="2aa4754e-167c-44e8-b116-4bc524c06451" CreationDate="2019-10-04T09:11:22.653" UserId="5511" Text="The concept that I can think of as closest to this &quot;half-divine, half-animal&quot; is the Six Realms of Samsara found in Hinduism and Buddhism. There are six realms through which beings reincarnate:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Deva Realm = gods&#xD;&#xA; - Asura Realm = demigods&#xD;&#xA; - Human Realm&#xD;&#xA; - Animal Realm&#xD;&#xA; - Preta Realm = hungry ghosts&#xD;&#xA; - Naraka realm = hellish&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The human realm is situated _between_ the animal and the divine.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19876" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5952" RevisionGUID="3bc859fb-5599-4925-928b-5d30355351a9" CreationDate="2019-10-07T18:31:58.713" UserId="6398" Text="He doesn't exactly have a &quot;power&quot; like some of the other gods do. Zeus, Hades, and Poseidon have powers like that because they rule parts of the world, with Zeus as king of the sky, Poseidon ruling the oceans, and Hades as king of Erebus, or Hades, the Underworld. Ares isn't really portrayed as being very smart, he is very much a brutish, bloodthirsty warrior. He is a very good fighter, although he isn't good enough to win every fight. Like fifthviolet says, he's portrayed pretty negatively.He's a coward, and hates losing. He has a temper, and doesn't think before charging into battle. He has lost battles, but they were only to people who were smarter than him. In a fight of brute force, he could probably beat almost anyone. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, yeah, he doesn't really have specific powers like Zeus and his brothers. I suppose he might have the power to make people want to start a war, but that's just speculation. If you need specific powers for some reason, like you're making a DnD character, he could have fire powers since he does have fire breathing horses, and fire can be rather consuming and destructive. Or he could just be an over powered fighter. Sorry if this was more than what you wanted and/or didn't really answer the question well. Hope it helped at least a bit, though!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19877" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5953" RevisionGUID="08786707-17ca-49a8-a6c0-5796b3353037" CreationDate="2019-10-08T20:01:49.020" UserId="2892" Text="Christian theology has the concept of [Hypostatic Union][1], used to explain how Christ can embody humanity and divinity in one being.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The idea of the dual nature of humans predates this doctrine in that figures like Dionysus are both bestial (as horned god) and divine (as the [twice-born][2] son of Zeus.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This idea can even be found in early psychology via Freud's now mythical [Id vs. Superego][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*(There are likely examples from a wide range of mythologies and philosophies because humans are indeed part animal--we rut and defecate and sometimes behave violently--and part divine in that we can &quot;look upward&quot; and grasp that there is something greater than ourselves.)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypostatic_union&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id,_ego_and_super-ego" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19878" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5953" RevisionGUID="fcf10ac1-aa8e-4d12-be64-0f5af55c0bc8" CreationDate="2019-10-08T20:08:08.427" UserId="2892" Comment="added 349 characters in body" Text="Christian theology has the concept of [Hypostatic Union][1], used to explain how Christ can embody humanity and divinity in one being.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The idea of the dual nature of humans predates this doctrine in that figures like Dionysus are both bestial (as horned god) and divine (as the [twice-born][2] son of Zeus.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This idea can even be found in early psychology via Freud's now mythical [Id vs. Superego][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*(There are likely examples from a wide range of mythologies and philosophies because humans are indeed part animal--we rut and defecate and sometimes behave violently--and part divine in that we can &quot;look upward&quot; and grasp that there is something greater than ourselves.)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The oldest extant mythological text treating this subject is likely Gilgamesh.  He's ~2/3 divine, but I wouldn't get too caught up in the exact percentage, and instead recognize that he has qualities of both.  Enkidu, his mirror, is initially a beast man that is humanized, and dies, forcing Gilgamesh to recognize his own humanity (mortality). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypostatic_union&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id,_ego_and_super-ego" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19879" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5954" RevisionGUID="7818bc32-50e7-4f02-8398-42d85e919fa0" CreationDate="2019-10-10T06:54:05.007" UserId="6339" Text="There is a very similar story found in Hindu epic [**Mahabharata**][1] - Adi Parva- Astika Parva - Section XXX, where &quot;Garuda&quot; the mighty eagle saved lives of &quot;Valkhilyas&quot; the great maharishis or sages. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Background-  In the starting sections of epic poem Mahabharata there is a narration of Garuda the eagle, who is the son of Kashyapa Prajapati and Vinita and is known for his God impressive speed and strength. In Hindu mythology, Garuda is Vahana or vehicle of  Vishnu.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Once Garuda was on his way to fetch &quot;Amruta&quot; (the nectar of immortality ) save his mother from her captives which was guarded by many gods in Swarga i.e. heaven. On his way he became hungry. His father Kashyapa told him to eat a giant tortoise and an elephant bent upon slaying each other in a  sacred lake. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Garuda then grabbed both elephant and tortoise and started to find a place where he can in leisure eat both of them. While searching he came across a large banian tree in the forest known as   Alamva. The banian tree requested Garuda to sit on one of his branches to eat his meal. But on that branch there he saw Valakhilya Rishis hanging with their heads downwards and engaged in ascetic penances. As garuda sat on the branch of the tree, due to his feet the branch of the tree broke away and Garuda caught it in his beak and in order to save the Valakhilya he flew away saving them from falling down. He then left the Sages to a mountain called   Gandhamadana.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And from fear of slaying the Rishis and desire of saving them, held&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that bough in his beaks, and rose on his wings. The great Rishis were&#xD;&#xA;&gt; struck with wonder at the sight of that act of his which was beyond&#xD;&#xA;&gt; even the power of the gods,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;And shaking the mountains by his wings, Garuda leisurely coursed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; through the skies. And as he soared with the elephant and the tortoise&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (in his claws), he beheld various regions underneath. Desiring as he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; did to save the Valakhilyas, he saw not a spot whereon to sit. At&#xD;&#xA;&gt; last, he went to that foremost of mountains called Gandhamadana.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The nature of Valkhilyas are divine they are often regarded as sages or wise men. So here is a story as you have enquired about a   flying creature saving human life.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/the-mahabharata-first-book/d/doc3893.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19880" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5954" RevisionGUID="0fa2fde6-123b-498d-81cc-1723578b0f71" CreationDate="2019-10-10T07:11:08.993" UserId="6339" Comment="minor corrections " Text="There is a very similar story found in Hindu epic [**Mahabharata**][1] - Adi Parva- Astika Parva - Section XXX, where &quot;Garuda&quot; the mighty eagle saved lives of &quot;Valkhilyas&quot; the great maharishis or sages. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Background-  In the starting sections of epic poem Mahabharata there is a narration of Garuda the eagle, who is the son of Kashyapa Prajapati and Vinita and is known for his impressive speed and strength. In Hindu mythology, Garuda is Vahana or vehicle of  Vishnu.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Once Garuda was on his way to fetch &quot;Amruta&quot; (the nectar of immortality ) to save his mother from her captives which was guarded by many gods in Swarga i.e. heaven. On his way he became hungry. His father Kashyapa told him to eat a giant tortoise and an elephant bent upon slaying each other in a  sacred lake. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Garuda then grabbed both elephant and tortoise and started to find a place where he can in leisure eat both of them. While searching he came across a large banian tree in the forest known as   Alamva. The banian tree requested Garuda to sit on one of his branches to eat his meal. But on that branch there he saw Valakhilya Rishis hanging with their heads downwards and engaged in ascetic penances. As garuda sat on the branch of the tree, due to his feet the branch of the tree broke away and Garuda caught it in his beak and in order to save the Valakhilya he flew away saving them from falling down. He then left the Sages to a mountain called   Gandhamadana.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And from fear of slaying the Rishis and desire of saving them, held&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that bough in his beaks, and rose on his wings. The great Rishis were&#xD;&#xA;&gt; struck with wonder at the sight of that act of his which was beyond&#xD;&#xA;&gt; even the power of the gods,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;And shaking the mountains by his wings, Garuda leisurely coursed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; through the skies. And as he soared with the elephant and the tortoise&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (in his claws), he beheld various regions underneath. Desiring as he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; did to save the Valakhilyas, he saw not a spot whereon to sit. At&#xD;&#xA;&gt; last, he went to that foremost of mountains called Gandhamadana.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The nature of Valkhilyas are divine they are often regarded as sages or wise men. So here is a story as you have enquired about a   flying creature saving human life.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/the-mahabharata-first-book/d/doc3893.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19882" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5953" RevisionGUID="9cff9956-c780-4d4c-bd52-1d8e6ed0deef" CreationDate="2019-10-10T18:44:36.927" UserId="2892" Comment="added 233 characters in body" Text="Christian theology has the concept of [Hypostatic Union][1], used to explain how Christ can embody humanity and divinity in one being.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The idea of the dual nature of humans predates this doctrine in that figures like Dionysus are both bestial (as horned god) and divine (as the [twice-born][2] son of Zeus.)  [Herakles][3] is another example of a demi-god with a human side (that suffers) and a divine side that is immortal.  Here, the hero burns away the moral part to ascend to heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This idea can even be found in early psychology via Freud's now mythical [Id vs. Superego][4].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*(There are likely examples from a wide range of mythologies and philosophies because humans are indeed part animal--we rut and defecate and sometimes behave violently--and part divine in that we can &quot;look upward&quot; and grasp that there is something greater than ourselves.)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The oldest extant mythological text treating this subject is likely Gilgamesh.  He's ~2/3 divine, but I wouldn't get too caught up in the exact percentage, and instead recognize that he has qualities of both.  Enkidu, his mirror, is initially a beast man that is humanized, and dies, forcing Gilgamesh to recognize his own humanity (mortality). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypostatic_union&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heracles#Death&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id,_ego_and_super-ego" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19884" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5956" RevisionGUID="d1d76bf0-b06d-48b9-a8a1-f6dc3ddb0e65" CreationDate="2019-10-12T03:07:11.033" UserId="6407" Text="The concept of a monster that presents as a single entity, but is composed of a multitude of worms, bugs, or insects can be found in many media. Examples of this type of monster include _The Nightmare Before Christmas_'s [Oogie Boogie][1], _Buffy the Vampire Slayer_'s [Worm Guy][2], and the character [Arclo][3] in Brandon Sanderson's _Edgedancer_.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Swarms and hive minds may act as one, but do not pretend to be a singular entity. &quot;Colony organism&quot; comes close, but this term from biology lacks the villainous air of a monster. The term I'm looking for would specifically describe an assemblage of simple (usually disgusting) lifeforms that are guided by a (mostly) singular intelligence and intentionally masquerade as something more complex, usually with evil intent. Is there a specific mythological name for such a creature?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]: https://the-nightmare-before-christmas.fandom.com/wiki/Oogie_Boogie&#xD;&#xA;[2]: https://buffy.fandom.com/wiki/Norman_Pfister&#xD;&#xA;[3]: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Arclo&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19885" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5956" RevisionGUID="d1d76bf0-b06d-48b9-a8a1-f6dc3ddb0e65" CreationDate="2019-10-12T03:07:11.033" UserId="6407" Text="A monster made of many insects" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19886" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5956" RevisionGUID="d1d76bf0-b06d-48b9-a8a1-f6dc3ddb0e65" CreationDate="2019-10-12T03:07:11.033" UserId="6407" Text="|monsters|names|demons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19891" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5957" RevisionGUID="1f2faa3d-24ca-4df4-9c2c-40538693194b" CreationDate="2019-10-13T03:03:25.983" UserId="4022" Text="The Hittite ritual CTH 432 (&quot;The Ritual for Depression&quot;) mentions laying out certain patterns in flour, starting at §3.24:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *namma-kan* É &lt;sup&gt;d&lt;/sup&gt;*MADANI* *Ù* É &lt;sup&gt;d&lt;/sup&gt;*ṢAR*[…  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; *gulašzi nu-kan* KÁ &lt;sup&gt;d&lt;/sup&gt;*MADANI IŠ*[…&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Next, he shall mark out the Temple of Madanu and the Temple of Ṣar[…] and then the Gate of Madanu…&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The context implies that flour is supposed to be used for this (a few lines earlier ZÌ.DA &quot;with flour&quot;).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But what does it mean to &quot;mark out the Temple of Madanu with flour&quot;? Similarly for &quot;the Gate of Madanu&quot;? Is this known from other Hittite or Akkadian rituals? (Since this particular ritual is a mix of Hittite and Akkadian magic.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19892" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5957" RevisionGUID="1f2faa3d-24ca-4df4-9c2c-40538693194b" CreationDate="2019-10-13T03:03:25.983" UserId="4022" Text="What is a &quot;house of Madanu&quot; and a &quot;gate of Madanu&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19893" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5957" RevisionGUID="1f2faa3d-24ca-4df4-9c2c-40538693194b" CreationDate="2019-10-13T03:03:25.983" UserId="4022" Text="|mesopotamia|rituals|hittite|akkadian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19894" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5957" RevisionGUID="47d420d2-6057-4cbf-8a74-738e60304cbf" CreationDate="2019-10-13T03:16:38.657" UserId="4022" Comment="added 10 characters in body" Text="The Hittite ritual CTH 432 (&quot;The Ritual for Depression&quot;) mentions laying out certain patterns in flour, starting at §3.24:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *namma-kan* É &lt;sup&gt;d&lt;/sup&gt;*MADANI* *Ù* É &lt;sup&gt;d&lt;/sup&gt;*ṢAR*[…  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; *gulašzi nu-kan* KÁ &lt;sup&gt;d&lt;/sup&gt;*MADANI IŠ*[…&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Next, he shall mark out the Temple of Madanu and the Temple of Ṣar[…] and then the Gate of Madanu…&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The context implies that flour is supposed to be used for this (a few lines earlier *IŠTU* ZÌDA &quot;by using flour&quot;).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But what does it mean to &quot;mark out the Temple of Madanu with flour&quot;? Similarly for &quot;the Gate of Madanu&quot;? Is this known from other Hittite or Akkadian rituals? (Since this particular ritual is a mix of Hittite and Akkadian magic.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19895" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5957" RevisionGUID="6fb35c90-fcc2-4f87-830e-49a777b2c9b3" CreationDate="2019-10-13T16:37:06.730" UserId="4022" Comment="added 13 characters in body" Text="The Hittite ritual CTH 432 (&quot;The Ritual for Depression&quot;) mentions laying out certain patterns in flour, starting at §3.24:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *namma-kan* É &lt;sup&gt;d&lt;/sup&gt;*MADANI* *Ù* É &lt;sup&gt;d&lt;/sup&gt;*ṢAR*[…  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; *gulašzi nu-kan* KÁ &lt;sup&gt;d&lt;/sup&gt;*MADANI IŠ*[…&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Next, he shall mark out the Temple of Madanu and the Temple of Ṣar[panitu…]  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; and then the Gate of Madanu wi[th…]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The context implies that flour is supposed to be used for this (a few lines earlier *IŠTU* ZÌDA &quot;by using flour&quot;).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But what does it mean to &quot;mark out the Temple of Madanu with flour&quot;? Similarly for &quot;the Gate of Madanu&quot;? Is this known from other Hittite or Akkadian rituals? (Since this particular ritual is a mix of Hittite and Akkadian magic.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(The word for &quot;temple&quot; here, &quot;É&quot;, literally means &quot;house&quot;, so this could also be read as &quot;the House of Madanu&quot;.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19896" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5958" RevisionGUID="2f32e8f3-7ae0-4c25-a37f-785248ffe1c3" CreationDate="2019-10-13T20:50:56.843" UserId="6413" Text="I can see this topic hasn’t been touched upon recently, so this may me void of any purpose, for you all may have already found this out for yourselves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would like to point out that TimLymington has a good point. There’s a certain connotation of context, and what your intention of the meaning you seek of the word.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I believe the actual term you are looking for is 仙人, which is apparently a middle-Chinese loanword borrowed by the Japanese. It specifies, someone who is generally considered a hermit, wise, sage-like, and more often than not immortal (transcending dozens of generations). English transliteration is Sēnnin.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;These different terms encompass the epitome of what we all imagine a “sage-like” figure to be. Generally old in appearance, hermitical, knowledge in multiple disciplines of nkt also archaic and esoteric arts, and more often than not the immortality often associated with being a “sage.” &#xD;&#xA;Many of these sages can also perform unique feats outside their “divinity” or “enlightenment” like manipulation of elements, the transmutation of substance, teleportation, astroporjection, flight, and increased various physical capabilities that would otherwise be insomidered “immortal” as in not of mortal quality/standards/parameters." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19897" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5958" RevisionGUID="0851495f-101e-48f9-89ea-f5aebb15136c" CreationDate="2019-10-13T20:56:26.470" UserId="6413" Comment="edited body" Text="I can see this topic hasn’t been touched upon recently, so this may me void of any purpose, for you all may have already found this out for yourselves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would like to point out that TimLymington has a good point. There’s a certain connotation of context, and what your intention of the meaning you seek of the word.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I believe the actual term you are looking for is 仙人, which is apparently a middle-Chinese loanword borrowed by the Japanese. It specifies, someone who is generally considered a hermit, wise, sage-like, and more often than not immortal (transcending dozens of generations). English transliteration is Sēnnin.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;These different terms encompass the epitome of what we all imagine a “sage-like” figure to be. Generally old in appearance, hermitical, knowledgeable in multiple disciplines if not also archaic and esoteric arts, and more often than not the immortality often associated with being a “sage.” &#xD;&#xA;Many of these sages can also perform unique feats outside their “divinity” or “enlightenment” like manipulation of elements, the transmutation of substance, teleportation, astroprojection, flight, and increased various physical capabilities that would otherwise be considered “immortal” as in not of mortal quality/standards/parameters." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19898" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5959" RevisionGUID="5c70a1df-4494-44c4-8a1f-0490aeb2d0d1" CreationDate="2019-10-14T08:50:59.730" UserId="2682" Text="The description of Acheron and Styx in *Aeneid* 6 appears to be fairly clearly based on the somewhat ambiguous Underworld structure supplied by Circe in **Homer's *Odyssey* 10**. Other mythography subsequent to Homer likewise appears to take Circe at her word as far as the placement of these chthonic features is concerned. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;E.g. **Plato**'s interpretation, given in ***Phaedo*** 112e-133c, is that &quot;Tartarus&quot; (here apparently a generic term for the entire Underworld, as is the case in other writers, such as Hyginus, for instance) contains four main streams (*rheûmata*), namely Oceanus (which encircles the earth and flows in the upper world as well), Acheron, Pyriphlegethon and Cocytus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Phaedo* explicitly differentiates between a *rheûma* (stream) named Acheron and a *límnē* (lake) called Acherusia. Like Oceanus, Acheron flows also in the upper world, itself going &quot;through various desert places and, passing under the earth, comes to the Acherusian lake.&quot; Virgil seems to retain a similar distinction, and perhaps paralleling with his *Aeneid* Underworld construction, in *Phaedo*, Plato says that Styx is a lake which the Cocytus drains into. Somewhat confusingly, according to *Phaedo*'s report of this netherworld feature, &quot;it is that which is called by the poets the Stygian river&quot; (because it forms into Lake Styx?).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Circe seems to describe an opposite flow in the *Odyssey*, saying that the Cocytus gets its water from the Styx, of which the Cocytus is thus a tributary. It doesn't seem expressly clear in the *Odyssey* what exactly Styx is, and so presumably whence the license for Plato to describe it as a lake, and for Virgil as yet some other sort of water-body. Meanwhile in **Seneca's *Hercules Furens***, the Acheron and the Styx are two branches flowing from a single source. Here Styx is silent and placid while Acheron &quot;with mighty roar rushes fiercely on, rolling down rocks in its flood... that cannot be recrossed.&quot;     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Pausanias** describes his visit to the northeastern region of Greece called Thesprotia in his ***Description of Greece*** 1, wherein he supports Plato's distinction between the River Acheron and Lake Acherusia:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Near Cichyrus is a lake called Acherusia, and a river called Acheron.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There is also Cocytus, a most unlovely stream. I believe it was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; because Homer had seen these places that he made bold to describe in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his poems the regions of Hades, and gave to the rivers there the names&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of those in Thesprotia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Confirming both Plato and Pausanias, the 10th-century AD encyclopaedia called the **Suda** contains separate article entries for Acheron and Acherusia. It defines Acheron as a &quot;river in Hades {*potamós en ā́dou*} mentioned in myth&quot;, while &quot;Acherusia is a lake in Hades {*límnē en ā́dou*}, which the dying cross over&quot;. Styx meanwhile is described in this work as a spring (*krḗnē*) or fountain (*pēgḗ*) in the Underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Phaedo*, at some point the fiery stream of Pyriphlegethon &quot;pours into a vast region of fire, and forms a lake larger than the Mediterranean Sea, boiling with water and mud,&quot; and it too, after proceeding &quot;muddy and turbid,&quot; winds around the earth, coming eventually to drain into Lake Acherusia. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In ***Theogony*** 775-806, **Hesiod** describes the structure of the earth and the netherworld in relation to Oceanus and Styx, telling us that one tenth of all the water of the cosmic stream of the Titan Oceanus is allotted to his daughter Styx, though he does not explicitly say that Styx herself is a river. Perhaps, though, he doesn't need to, since, at least in the world of the living, Styx was well-known as a river that flowed down a mountain in Arcadia, with a waterfall mentioned by Pausanias in *Description of Greece* 8, where we are reminded that Homer has the same stream run down into the land of the dead. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Aeneid* 6 also tells of the River Lethe, the stream of &quot;Oblivion&quot; from whose waters the dead who are destined for reincarnation drink in order to empty themselves of their previous lives' memories. Orphic Hymn 85 to Hypnos alludes to this river as well. In Plato's ***Republic* 10** this river is called Ameles, &quot;Unmindfulness.&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19899" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5959" RevisionGUID="f1fcb787-e193-425b-a104-3dfb07615750" CreationDate="2019-10-14T08:56:32.700" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected a detail" Text="The description of Acheron and Styx in *Aeneid* 6 appears to be fairly clearly based on the somewhat ambiguous Underworld structure supplied by Circe in **Homer's *Odyssey* 10**. Other mythography subsequent to Homer likewise appears to take Circe at her word as far as the placement of these chthonic features is concerned. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;E.g. **Plato**'s interpretation, given in ***Phaedo*** 112e-133c, is that &quot;Tartarus&quot; (here apparently a generic term for the entire Underworld, as is the case in other writers, such as Hyginus, for instance) contains four main streams (*rheûmata*), namely Oceanus (which encircles the earth and flows in the upper world as well), Acheron, Pyriphlegethon and Cocytus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Phaedo* explicitly differentiates between a *rheûma* (stream) named Acheron and a *límnē* (lake) called Acherusia. Like Oceanus, Acheron flows also in the upper world, itself going &quot;through various desert places and, passing under the earth, comes to the Acherusian lake.&quot; Virgil seems to retain a similar distinction, and perhaps paralleling with his *Aeneid* Underworld construction, in *Phaedo*, Plato says that Styx is a lake which the Cocytus drains into. Somewhat confusingly, according to *Phaedo*'s report of this netherworld feature, &quot;it is that which is called by the poets the Stygian river&quot; (because it forms into Lake Styx?).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Circe seems to describe an opposite flow in the *Odyssey*, saying that the Cocytus gets its water from the Styx, of which the Cocytus is thus a tributary. It doesn't seem expressly clear in the *Odyssey* what exactly Styx is, and so presumably whence the license for Plato to describe it as a lake, and for Virgil as yet some other sort of water-body. Meanwhile in **Seneca's *Hercules Furens***, the Acheron and the Styx are two branches flowing from a single source. Here Styx is silent and placid while Acheron &quot;with mighty roar rushes fiercely on, rolling down rocks in its flood... that cannot be recrossed.&quot;     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Pausanias** describes his visit to the northeastern region of Greece called Thesprotia in his ***Description of Greece*** 1, wherein he supports Plato's distinction between the River Acheron and Lake Acherusia:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Near Cichyrus is a lake called Acherusia, and a river called Acheron.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There is also Cocytus, a most unlovely stream. I believe it was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; because Homer had seen these places that he made bold to describe in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his poems the regions of Hades, and gave to the rivers there the names&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of those in Thesprotia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Confirming both Plato and Pausanias, the 10th-century AD encyclopaedia called the **Suda** contains separate article entries for Acheron and Acherusia. It defines Acheron as a &quot;river in Hades {*potamós en ā́dou*} mentioned in myth&quot;, while &quot;Acherusia is a lake in Hades {*límnē en ā́dou*}, which the dying cross over&quot;. Styx meanwhile is described in this work as a spring (*krḗnē*) or fountain (*pēgḗ*) in the Underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Phaedo*, at some point the fiery stream of Pyriphlegethon &quot;pours into a vast region of fire, and forms a lake larger than the Mediterranean Sea, boiling with water and mud,&quot; and it too, after proceeding &quot;muddy and turbid,&quot; winds around the earth, coming eventually to drain into Lake Acherusia. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In ***Theogony*** 775-806, **Hesiod** describes the structure of the earth and the netherworld in relation to Oceanus and Styx, telling us that one tenth of all the water of the cosmic stream of the Titan Oceanus is allotted to his daughter Styx, though he does not explicitly say that Styx herself is a river. Perhaps, though, he doesn't need to, since, at least in the world of the living, Styx was well-known as a river that flowed down a mountain in Arcadia, with a waterfall mentioned by Pausanias in *Description of Greece* 8, where we are reminded that Homer has the same stream run down into the land of the dead. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Aeneid* 6 also tells of the River Lethe, the stream of &quot;Oblivion&quot; from whose waters the dead who are destined for reincarnation drink in order to empty themselves of their previous lives' memories. **Orphic Hymn 84 to Hypnos** alludes to this river as well. In Plato's ***Republic* 10** this river is called Ameles, &quot;Unmindfulness.&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19900" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5960" RevisionGUID="0fc12073-0dde-4362-b7f3-d0ed5aa4100e" CreationDate="2019-10-14T19:18:48.990" UserId="3658" Text="I have been trying to find sources online about Armenian mythology but since the culture is so old and the Church burned so many texts about their paganism, I have difficulty finding anything. Most sources online differ from each other and the very few books that I have found are wildly inaccurate, short and unhelpful. I think it's about time someone brought Armenian mythology into the light and gave it the same amount of love as Greek mythology so if anyone can give me anything, I'd be extremely grateful!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19901" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5960" RevisionGUID="0fc12073-0dde-4362-b7f3-d0ed5aa4100e" CreationDate="2019-10-14T19:18:48.990" UserId="3658" Text="Does anyone know any good sources/books regarding ancient Armenian mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19902" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5960" RevisionGUID="0fc12073-0dde-4362-b7f3-d0ed5aa4100e" CreationDate="2019-10-14T19:18:48.990" UserId="3658" Text="|comparative|source-request|pantheon|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19903" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5961" RevisionGUID="744c0036-9f32-46bf-978d-68a5cfc8e71e" CreationDate="2019-10-14T19:48:35.447" UserId="2682" Text="In every story featuring Thanatos as a major character his primary role does in fact seem to be the transportation of the dead, via some means or another, to the Underworld, and it does so happen that each of these stories is about a singular dead or dying human. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Taking into account, as your Question does, the sheer numbers of humans who die daily, it would indeed logically require Thanatos to &quot;have super speed&quot; or otherwise be everywhere at the same time, in some way. Assuming that to be the case, it sounds to me like this would make him immensely powerful, perhaps even with limitless power, or at least very few limits to these powers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Death is a Loser**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the two best-known of these Thanatos tales are also about how easy it is to get overcome this god, at least temporarily. We do not have the fine details of the first story because it comes from a now-lost play by Aeschylus, about the notoriously cunning Corinthian king Sisyphus, who angered Zeus, as a punishment for which the king of the gods sent Thanatos to put an end to him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Using some sort of trick, however, Sisyphus managed to bind Thanatos for a while, within which time humans stopped dying. The war-god Ares then came and rescued the god of death, who was then able to complete his task of killing Sisyphus. The particularity about no one dying during Thanatos' captivity suggests that the death-god is actually neither omnipresent nor nigh-omnipotent, as though he is in fact a localised phenomenon, able to attend to people in only one place at a time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second story takes place a few generations later and also comes from a play, namely *Alcestis*, by Euripides. In it, Thanatos arrives on the scene to take Queen Alcestis of Pherae away to the Underworld but in a wrestling-match, which happens off-stage and doesn't seem like much of a competition for the victor, the great hero Heracles [Hercules] beats the god of death and snatches Alcestis from him to take her back to her husband Admetus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A conversation which passes between Apollo and Thanatos makes it fairly certain that the god of death is conceived of here as bearing off the dead one by one to their eventual home under the earth. One might say it is surprising how easily Thanatos is vanquished here, but to be fair Heracles is at least as strong as his father Zeus, and holds his own in battle quite well against huge monsters, giants, and certain other gods who are nearly as powerful as his father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Who is Providing Transport?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The role of the god Hermes Chthonius, &quot;Hermes of the Underworld,&quot; appears to duplicate Thanatos' apparent function as the bearer of the dead to the nether realm. Hermes is rather distinctively known to be the Psychopompus, &quot;Guide of Souls,&quot; of Greek mythology, envisioned as leading a train of dead humans to the rivers of the Underworld where he hands them over the boatman Charon to ferry them from there to the palace of Hades, the ruler of the Underworld, for judgement as to their future accommodations. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The stories of Sisyphus and Alcestis, however, make it sound rather like Thanatos is actually the Psychopompus. Other mythography ascribes this position to other entities from the mythology. From Hesiod's *Shield of Heracles*, for instance, we learn about how Thanatos existed as, essentially, multiple female versions of himself called the Keres. In the *Theogony*, also by Hesiod, both the Keres and Thanatos are the fatherless offspring of Nyx, the primaeval goddess of night. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Theoi.com interprets the difference between Thanatos and his sisters as the former being the personification of non-violent death while the Keres represent violent death. In Homer's *Odyssey* 14.207 Keres are described explicitly as carrying someone away &quot;down to the house of Hades&quot;, suggesting to us further that Thanatos and Hermes are not the only couriers of the dead, unless we take these different references to be simply conflicting and contradictory ideas about the transportation system for the deceased.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Blood-Stained Visage of Mortality**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Roman authors Seneca and Statius describe Mors, the Roman version of Thanatos, quite vividly as more of an all-powerful force of nature, calling him gory and insatiable, hovering over battlefields with his mouth wide open in order to gobble up the dead and then vomit them back out upon reaching the Underworld with them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Seneca's *Hercules Furens* he appears to be of immense size, &quot;pale-faced with greedy teeth,&quot; while in the same author's *Oedipus*, it seems as if the dead cannot die fast enough for him to devour and crowd them in front of Charon before he hungrily rushes back to the upper world to fill himself up some more. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Statius' *Thebaid* he is even the one who cuts through the threads of life which are spun by the goddesses of fate for each human being, and once the dead are standing before Hades, the death-god enthusiastically tallies up the deceased for the Underworld king. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These depictions very much seem to envision a gigantic being who moves with blinding rapidity, all of which make it difficult to reconcile him with the somewhat comically pathetic character in Aeschylus and Euripides. Either it just does not make sense to have Thanatos take up time he does not have calling upon the dying one by one, and we have contradictory material to work with, or we could say that Thanatos is not in fact the sole guide of the dead to the house of Hades, since we do also encounter other deities performing this task.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Facing the difficulty of how Thanatos is able to fulfill the role assigned to him in the lost Sisyphus play and in *Alcestis*, we at least have the words of Odysseus to fall back onto: &quot;it is hard for mortal men... but with the gods all things are possible&quot; (*Odyssey* 10.306), for whatever that is worth.     " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19907" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="3026" RevisionGUID="eefa21bc-2a95-4171-9b7c-09db550a243b" CreationDate="2019-10-15T01:24:29.997" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="19909" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5963" RevisionGUID="0cd54138-ff18-4dd8-98be-0ded11ed0ad7" CreationDate="2019-10-15T12:06:36.717" UserId="6166" Text="There are two that you can download from Project Gutenberg for free.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Armenian Legends And Poems by Z. C. Boyajian (2017); [enter link description here][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Armenian Legends And Festivals by L. A. Boettiger (2011); [enter link description here][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/54036&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/38129" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19911" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5963" RevisionGUID="dd382460-24b2-4c35-8ea9-ce49aa07547f" CreationDate="2019-10-15T16:08:01.797" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 56 characters in body" Text="There are two that you can download from Project Gutenberg for free.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Armenian Legends And Poems by Z. C. Boyajian (2017)][1]&#xD;&#xA;- [Armenian Legends And Festivals by L. A. Boettiger (2011)][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/54036&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/38129" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19912" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5964" RevisionGUID="c9497ca0-95b6-4091-8c7b-615824e11727" CreationDate="2019-10-15T16:29:37.673" UserId="6422" Text="&#xD;&#xA;I'm doing research for one of the stories I'm working on and found the Greek deity Epiales, the god/spirit of nightmares. I'm trying to implement him into a story as an antagonist to where he seeks to wreak havoc on humanity by forcing their nightmares upon them; however, I would also like if there was a reason, as if he was wronged by humanity or a god, or if he just hated them. Sadly these are the only &quot;legit&quot; sources I could find.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Epiales.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://thedemoniacal.blogspot.com/2015/01/epiales.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When I search up &quot;Epiales Lore&quot; or &quot;Epiales mythology,&quot; I get either a Wikipedia, not enough information to go off of, or something that is completely unrelated.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What I'm aiming for is if Epiales had some sort of lore to him, such as who he fought, did he have some sort of significance besides what he is able to do, or if he was somewhat defeated by a hero or not.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whatever he went through, I am simply asking for a source with every detail on him, not a small summary or a Wikipedia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you for your time&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sidenote: this question was asked from the world-building section of stack exchange and I was directed to posting it here, so I am not familiar with every tag for this section" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19913" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5964" RevisionGUID="c9497ca0-95b6-4091-8c7b-615824e11727" CreationDate="2019-10-15T16:29:37.673" UserId="6422" Text="(Legit) Online Sources on Epiales, the Greek Spirit of Nightmares" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19914" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5964" RevisionGUID="c9497ca0-95b6-4091-8c7b-615824e11727" CreationDate="2019-10-15T16:29:37.673" UserId="6422" Text="|demi-gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19915" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5964" RevisionGUID="b2e7b598-7bf0-482a-a2b3-7d1e659cb02c" CreationDate="2019-10-15T17:17:20.097" UserId="5726" Comment="Added applicable tags" Text="I'm doing research for one of the stories I'm working on and found the Greek deity Epiales, the god/spirit of nightmares. I'm trying to implement him into a story as an antagonist to where he seeks to wreak havoc on humanity by forcing their nightmares upon them; however, I would also like if there was a reason, as if he was wronged by humanity or a god, or if he just hated them. Sadly these are the only &quot;credible&quot; sources I could find.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Epiales.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://thedemoniacal.blogspot.com/2015/01/epiales.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When I search up &quot;Epiales Lore&quot; or &quot;Epiales mythology,&quot; I get either a Wikipedia, not enough information to go off of, or something that is completely unrelated.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What I'm aiming for is if Epiales had some sort of lore to him, such as who he fought, did he have some sort of significance besides what he is able to do, or if he was somewhat defeated by a hero or not.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whatever he went through, I am simply asking for a source with every detail on him, not a small summary or a Wikipedia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you for your time&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sidenote: this question was asked from the world-building section of stack exchange and I was directed to posting it here, so I am not familiar with every tag for this section" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19916" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5964" RevisionGUID="b2e7b598-7bf0-482a-a2b3-7d1e659cb02c" CreationDate="2019-10-15T17:17:20.097" UserId="5726" Comment="Added applicable tags" Text="(credible) Online Sources on Epiales, the Greek Spirit of Nightmares" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19917" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5964" RevisionGUID="b2e7b598-7bf0-482a-a2b3-7d1e659cb02c" CreationDate="2019-10-15T17:17:20.097" UserId="5726" Comment="Added applicable tags" Text="|greek|demi-gods|demons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19918" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5965" RevisionGUID="80728409-ab18-472f-803b-03a7449aa988" CreationDate="2019-10-15T21:23:42.973" UserId="2892" Text="Here's a [link to the Aeschylus mention in Suppliant Women][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately, it's a single line with little detail.  (In the Greek text, Epiales aka &quot;Dark Dream&quot;, is [ὄναρ][2] [μέλαν][3]&quot;.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is a passage from Apollodorus *Library* (i.6.2) that describes *Ephialtes*, a leader of the giants in the Gigantomachy, vanquised at the hands of Apollo and Heracles:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  As for the other giants, Ephialtes was shot by Apollo with an arrow in his left eye and by Hercules in his right.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Graves makes reference to Ephialtes having first engaged Ares and &quot;beaten him to his knees,&quot; although this may be a conflation with a passage from the [Iliad (5.385)][4], where Ephialtes, referenced as a son of  Aloeus, binds Ares in a bronze jar. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: *Ephialtes* can translate as &quot;assaulter&quot;, here in the sense of a [nightmare][5]. (This is consistent with the [Alcaeus fragment (406)][6] as &quot;the daimon who assaults sleepers&quot;.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Graves has an interesting interpretation of the Apollodorus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Ephialtes, the name of the giants' leader means literally 'he who leaps upon' (*[incubus][7]* in Latin); and the attempts of Porphyrion to strangle and rape Hera, and of Pallas to rape Athene, suggest that the story mainly concerns the wisdom of invoking Heracles the Savior when threatened by erotic nightmares...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You'll notice that in the [Theoi Aeschylus entry][6], the nightmare, as spider, is likened to a rapist.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also reference to Ephialtes in [Pausinias (9.29.1)][8], where he and Otus were the first to sacrifice to the Muses on Mount Helicon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0016%3Acard%3D885&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Do)%2Fnar&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dme%2Flas&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D5%3Acard%3D363&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephialtes_of_Trachis#Name&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Epiales.html&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incubus&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0160%3Abook%3D9%3Achapter%3D29%3Asection%3D1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19919" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5965" RevisionGUID="0f3f25e9-cf06-4018-8ed4-5dee26dd1f7f" CreationDate="2019-10-15T21:32:48.010" UserId="2892" Comment="added 185 characters in body" Text="Here's a [link to the Aeschylus mention in Suppliant Women][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately, it's a single line with little detail.  (In the Greek text, Epiales aka &quot;Dark Dream&quot;, is [ὄναρ][2] [μέλαν][3]&quot;.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is a passage from Apollodorus *Library* (i.6.2) that describes *Ephialtes*, a leader of the giants in the Gigantomachy, vanquised at the hands of Apollo and Heracles:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  As for the other giants, Ephialtes was shot by Apollo with an arrow in his left eye and by Hercules in his right.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Graves makes reference to Ephialtes having first engaged Ares and &quot;beaten him to his knees,&quot; although this may be a conflation with a passage from the [Iliad (5.385)][4], where Ephialtes, referenced as a son of  Aloeus, binds Ares in a bronze jar. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: *Ephialtes* can translate as &quot;assaulter&quot;, here in the sense of a [nightmare][5]. (This is consistent with the [Alcaeus fragment (406)][6] as &quot;the daimon who assaults sleepers&quot;.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Graves has an interesting interpretation of the Apollodorus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Ephialtes, the name of the giants' leader means literally 'he who leaps upon' (*[incubus][7]* in Latin); and the attempts of Porphyrion to strangle and rape Hera, and of Pallas to rape Athene, suggest that the story mainly concerns the wisdom of invoking Heracles the Savior when threatened by erotic nightmares...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You'll notice that in the [Theoi Aeschylus entry][6], the nightmare, as spider, is likened to a rapist.  This interpretation likely derives from the theme of the Suppliants, which involves fleeing from forced marriage, and the idea that women were carried off, literally, for this purpose. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also reference to Ephialtes in [Pausinias (9.29.1)][8], where he and Otus were the first to sacrifice to the Muses on Mount Helicon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0016%3Acard%3D885&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Do)%2Fnar&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dme%2Flas&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D5%3Acard%3D363&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephialtes_of_Trachis#Name&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Epiales.html&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incubus&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0160%3Abook%3D9%3Achapter%3D29%3Asection%3D1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19920" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5966" RevisionGUID="cf6c18f2-6149-4292-8e50-39c006465067" CreationDate="2019-10-16T08:57:49.243" UserId="108" Text="Perhaps a bit tenuous, but **The Worm That Walks** might be the closest to what you're seeking.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am not aware of a similar equivalent term from classical mythology, but you could argue this to be inspired by the [Cthulhu Mythos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cthulhu_Mythos). One interpretation of the ending to HP Lovecraft's *[The Festival](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Festival)* is a monster composed of maggots:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Wisely did Ibn Schacabac say, that happy is the tomb where no wizard hath lain, and happy the town at night whose wizards are all ashes. For it is of old rumour that the soul of the devil-bought hastes not from his charnel clay, but fats and instructs the very worm that gnaws; till out of corruption horrid life springs, and the dull scavengers of earth wax crafty to vex it and swell monstrous to plague it. Great holes secretly are digged where earth's pores ought to suffice, and things have learnt to walk that ought to crawl.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The concept of &quot;the worm that walks&quot; has since inspired a slew of such monsters, and lends its name to the associated [trope](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWormThatWalks)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19925" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5965" RevisionGUID="b278028c-3144-4d36-981e-981045bba1ca" CreationDate="2019-10-16T20:04:05.103" UserId="2892" Comment="added 1092 characters in body" Text="Here's a [link to the Aeschylus mention in Suppliant Women][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately, it's a single line with little detail.  (In the Greek text, Epiales aka &quot;Dark Dream&quot;, is [ὄναρ][2] [μέλαν][3]&quot;.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is a passage from Apollodorus *Library* (i.6.2) that describes *Ephialtes*, a leader of the giants in the Gigantomachy, vanquised at the hands of Apollo and Heracles:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  But in the battle Porphyrion attacked Hercules and Hera. Nevertheless Zeus inspired him with lust for Hera, and when he tore her robes and would have forced her, she called for help, and Zeus smote him with a thunderbolt, and Hercules shot him dead with an arrow.1 As for the other giants, Ephialtes was shot by Apollo with an arrow in his left eye and by Hercules in his right.&quot; &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE:&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus [*Library* (i.6.2)][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Graves makes reference to Ephialtes having first engaged Ares and &quot;beaten him to his knees,&quot; although this may be a conflation with a passage from the [Iliad (5.385)][5], where Ephialtes, referenced as a son of  Aloeus, binds Ares in a bronze jar. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: *Ephialtes* can translate as &quot;assaulter&quot;, here in the sense of a [nightmare][6]. (This is consistent with the [Alcaeus fragment (406)][7] as &quot;the daimon who assaults sleepers&quot;.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Graves has an interesting interpretation of the Apollodorus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Ephialtes, the name of the giants' leader means literally 'he who leaps upon' (*[incubus][8]* in Latin); and the attempts of Porphyrion to strangle and rape Hera, and of Pallas to rape Athene, suggest that the story mainly concerns the wisdom of invoking Heracles the Savior when threatened by erotic nightmares...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You'll notice that in the [Theoi Aeschylus entry][7], the nightmare, as spider, is likened to a rapist.  This interpretation likely derives from the theme of the Suppliants, which involves fleeing from forced marriage, and the idea that women were carried off, literally, for this purpose. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also reference to Ephialtes in [Pausinias (9.29.1)][9], where he and Otus were the first to sacrifice to the Muses on Mount Helicon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;**Note on the Names**: ἐπιαλές (*epiales*) doesn't have a direct lexical entry but is a form of [ἐπιάλλω][10] (&quot;send upon, lay upon&quot;).  This is related to ἐπιάλτης, Aeolian for [ἐφιάλτης][11] ([π][12] replaced by [φ][13] to produce *ephialtes*), translated as &quot;nightmare, conceived as a throttling demon.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0016%3Acard%3D885&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Do)%2Fnar&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dme%2Flas&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D6%3Asection%3D2&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D5%3Acard%3D363&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephialtes_of_Trachis#Name&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Epiales.html&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incubus&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0160%3Abook%3D9%3Achapter%3D29%3Asection%3D1&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3De)pia%2Fllw&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3De)fia%2Flths&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi_(letter)&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phi" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19926" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5965" RevisionGUID="efeeb419-d42a-47a8-9f64-cc4d08e356da" CreationDate="2019-10-16T20:09:26.117" UserId="2892" Comment="added 1092 characters in body" Text="Here's a [link to the Aeschylus mention in Suppliant Women][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately, it's a single line with little detail.  (In the Greek text, Epiales aka &quot;Dark Dream&quot;, is [ὄναρ][2] [μέλαν][3]&quot;.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is a passage from Apollodorus that describes *Ephialtes*, a leader of the giants in the Gigantomachy, vanquised at the hands of Apollo and Heracles:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  But in the battle Porphyrion attacked Hercules and Hera. Nevertheless Zeus inspired him with lust for Hera, and when he tore her robes and would have forced her, she called for help, and Zeus smote him with a thunderbolt, and Hercules shot him dead with an arrow.1 As for the other giants, Ephialtes was shot by Apollo with an arrow in his left eye and by Hercules in his right.&quot; &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE:&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus [*Library* (i.6.2)][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Graves makes reference to Ephialtes having first engaged Ares and &quot;beaten him to his knees,&quot; although this may be a conflation with a passage from the [Iliad (5.385)][5], where Ephialtes, referenced as a son of  Aloeus, binds Ares in a bronze jar. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: *Ephialtes* can translate as &quot;assaulter&quot;, here in the sense of a [nightmare][6]. (This is consistent with the [Alcaeus fragment (406)][7] as &quot;the daimon who assaults sleepers&quot;.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Graves has an interesting interpretation of the Apollodorus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Ephialtes, the name of the giants' leader means literally 'he who leaps upon' (*[incubus][8]* in Latin); and the attempts of Porphyrion to strangle and rape Hera, and of Pallas to rape Athene, suggest that the story mainly concerns the wisdom of invoking Heracles the Savior when threatened by erotic nightmares...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You'll notice that in the [Theoi Aeschylus entry][7], the nightmare, as spider, is likened to a rapist.  This interpretation likely derives from the theme of [The Suppliants][9], which involves fleeing from forced marriage, and the idea that women were carried off, literally, for this purpose. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also reference to Ephialtes in [Pausinias (9.29.1)][10], where he and Otus were the first to sacrifice to the Muses on Mount Helicon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;**Note on the Names**: ἐπιαλές (*epiales*) doesn't have a direct lexical entry but is a form of [ἐπιάλλω][11] (&quot;send upon, lay upon&quot;).  This is related to ἐπιάλτης, where the Aeolian form is [ἐφιάλτης][12] ([π][13] replaced by [φ][14] to produce *ephialtes*), translated as &quot;nightmare, conceived as a throttling demon.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0016%3Acard%3D885&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Do)%2Fnar&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dme%2Flas&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D6%3Asection%3D2&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D5%3Acard%3D363&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephialtes_of_Trachis#Name&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Epiales.html&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incubus&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Suppliants_(Aeschylus)#Plot_of_The_Suppliants&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0160%3Abook%3D9%3Achapter%3D29%3Asection%3D1&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3De)pia%2Fllw&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3De)fia%2Flths&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi_(letter)&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phi" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19928" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5965" RevisionGUID="f0ffac28-18c6-4401-95f2-c30cd7937c7f" CreationDate="2019-10-16T20:26:28.130" UserId="2892" Comment="edited body" Text="Here's a [link to the Aeschylus mention in Suppliant Women][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately, it's a single line with little detail.  (In the Greek text, Epiales aka &quot;Dark Dream&quot;, is [ὄναρ][2] [μέλαν][3]&quot;.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is a passage from Apollodorus that describes *Ephialtes*, a leader of the giants in the Gigantomachy, vanquised at the hands of Apollo and Heracles:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  &quot;But in the battle Porphyrion attacked Hercules and Hera. Nevertheless Zeus inspired him with lust for Hera, and when he tore her robes and would have forced her, she called for help, and Zeus smote him with a thunderbolt, and Hercules shot him dead with an arrow. As for the other giants, Ephialtes was shot by Apollo with an arrow in his left eye and by Hercules in his right.&quot; &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE:&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus [*Library* (i.6.2)][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Graves makes reference to Ephialtes having first engaged Ares and &quot;beaten him to his knees,&quot; although this may be a conflation with a passage from the [Iliad (5.385)][5], where Ephialtes, referenced as a son of  Aloeus, binds Ares in a bronze jar. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: *Ephialtes* can translate as &quot;assaulter&quot;, here in the sense of a [nightmare][6]. (This is consistent with the [Alcaeus fragment (406)][7] as &quot;the daimon who assaults sleepers&quot;.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Graves has an interesting interpretation of the Apollodorus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Ephialtes, the name of the giants' leader means literally 'he who leaps upon' (*[incubus][8]* in Latin); and the attempts of Porphyrion to strangle and rape Hera, and of Pallas to rape Athene, suggest that the story mainly concerns the wisdom of invoking Heracles the Savior when threatened by erotic nightmares...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You'll notice that in the [Theoi Aeschylus entry][7], the nightmare, as spider, is likened to a rapist.  This interpretation likely derives from the theme of [The Suppliants][9], which involves fleeing from forced marriage, and the idea that women were carried off, literally, for this purpose. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also reference to Ephialtes in [Pausinias (9.29.1)][10], where he and Otus were the first to sacrifice to the Muses on Mount Helicon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;**Note on the Names**: ἐπιαλές (*epiales*) doesn't have a direct lexical entry but is a form of [ἐπιάλλω][11] (&quot;send upon, lay upon&quot;).  This is related to ἐπιάλτης, where the Aeolian form is [ἐφιάλτης][12] ([π][13] replaced by [φ][14] to produce *ephialtes*), translated as &quot;nightmare, conceived as a throttling demon.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0016%3Acard%3D885&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Do)%2Fnar&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dme%2Flas&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D6%3Asection%3D2&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D5%3Acard%3D363&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephialtes_of_Trachis#Name&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Epiales.html&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incubus&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Suppliants_(Aeschylus)#Plot_of_The_Suppliants&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0160%3Abook%3D9%3Achapter%3D29%3Asection%3D1&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3De)pia%2Fllw&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3De)fia%2Flths&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi_(letter)&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phi" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19929" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5959" RevisionGUID="db8d68dc-167c-4e2d-b812-40a14eb24ff5" CreationDate="2019-10-17T01:31:38.160" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; added links" Text="The description of Acheron and Styx in *Aeneid* 6 appears to be fairly clearly based on the somewhat ambiguous Underworld structure supplied by Circe in **Homer's [*Odyssey* 10**](https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Odyssey10.php#anchor_Toc90267916). Other mythography subsequent to Homer likewise appears to take Circe at her word as far as the placement of these chthonic features is concerned. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;E.g. **Plato**'s interpretation, given in [***Phaedo*** 112e-133c](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Phaedo#Description_of_the_interior_of_the_earth_and_of_the_subterranean_seas_and_rivers.), is that &quot;Tartarus&quot; (here apparently a generic term for the entire Underworld, as is the case in other writers, such as Hyginus, for instance) contains four main streams (*rheûmata*), namely Oceanus (which encircles the earth and flows in the upper world as well), Acheron, Pyriphlegethon and Cocytus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Phaedo* explicitly differentiates between a *rheûma* (stream) named Acheron and a *límnē* (lake) called Acherusia. Like Oceanus, Acheron flows also in the upper world, itself going &quot;through various desert places and, passing under the earth, comes to the Acherusian lake.&quot; Virgil seems to retain a similar distinction, and perhaps paralleling with his *Aeneid* Underworld construction, in *Phaedo*, Plato says that Styx is a lake which the Cocytus drains into. Somewhat puzzlingly, according to *Phaedo*'s report of the Cocytus, &quot;it is that which is called by the poets the Stygian river&quot; (because it forms into Lake Styx?).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Circe seems to describe an opposite flow in the *Odyssey*, saying that the Cocytus gets its water from the Styx, of which the Cocytus is thus a tributary. It doesn't seem expressly clear in the *Odyssey* what exactly Styx is, and so presumably whence the license for Plato to describe it as a lake, and for Virgil as yet some other sort of water-body. Meanwhile in **Seneca's [*Hercules Furens***](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Tragedies_of_Seneca_(1907)_Miller/Hercules_Furens), the Acheron and the Styx are two branches flowing from a single source. Here Styx is silent and placid while Acheron &quot;with mighty roar rushes fiercely on, rolling down rocks in its flood... that cannot be recrossed.&quot;     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Pausanias** describes his visit to the northeastern region of Greece called Thesprotia in his ***Description of Greece*** 1, wherein he supports Plato's distinction between the River Acheron and Lake Acherusia:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Near Cichyrus is a lake called Acherusia, and a river called Acheron.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There is also Cocytus, a most unlovely stream. I believe it was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; because Homer had seen these places that he made bold to describe in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his poems the regions of Hades, and gave to the rivers there the names&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of those in Thesprotia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Confirming both Plato and Pausanias, the 10th-century AD encyclopaedia called the **Suda** contains separate article entries for Acheron and Acherusia. It defines Acheron as a &quot;river in Hades {*potamós en ā́dou*} mentioned in myth&quot;, while &quot;Acherusia is a lake in Hades {*límnē en ā́dou*}, which the dying cross over&quot;. Styx meanwhile is described in this work as a spring (*krḗnē*) or fountain (*pēgḗ*) in the Underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Phaedo*, at some point the fiery stream of Pyriphlegethon &quot;pours into a vast region of fire, and forms a lake larger than the Mediterranean Sea, boiling with water and mud,&quot; and it too, after proceeding &quot;muddy and turbid,&quot; winds around the earth, coming eventually to drain into Lake Acherusia. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [***Theogony*** 775-806](https://archive.org/details/hesiodhomerichym00hesi_0/page/134), **Hesiod** describes the structure of the earth and the netherworld in relation to Oceanus and Styx, telling us that one tenth of all the water of the cosmic stream of the Titan Oceanus is allotted to his daughter Styx, though he does not explicitly say that Styx herself is a river. Perhaps, though, he doesn't need to, since, at least in the world of the living, Styx was well-known as a river that flowed down a mountain in Arcadia, with a waterfall mentioned by Pausanias in [*The Description of Greece* 8](https://archive.org/details/pausaniassdescri01pausuoft/page/24), where we are reminded that Homer has the same stream run down into the land of the dead. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Aeneid* 6 also tells of the River Lethe, the stream of &quot;Oblivion&quot; from whose waters the dead who are destined for reincarnation drink in order to empty themselves of their previous lives' memories. [**Orphic Hymn 84 to Hypnos**](https://www.theoi.com/Text/OrphicHymns2.html#84) alludes to this river as well. In Plato's ***Republic* 10** this river is called Ameles, &quot;Unmindfulness.&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19931" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5969" RevisionGUID="3cfc7bd9-5046-47fe-843d-1a3dfce3c5ea" CreationDate="2019-10-17T19:57:43.827" UserId="2892" Text="The [wiki][1] seems to have been updated:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  According to the Greek historian Plutarch (in De defectu oraculorum, &quot;The Obsolescence of Oracles&quot;), Pan is the only Greek god who actually dies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I checked the [Plutarch source][2], and found no mention of Asclepius.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- My sense is that this was an error, in that Greek demi-gods all died, or at least their mortal halves (as in the case of Heracles) such that some became fully divine after death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Asclepius' divinity comes at the hands of his slayer, Zeus, who, at the behest of his son Apollo, resurrected Asclepius and allowed him to dwell on Olympus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_(god)#%22The_Great_God_Pan_is_dead%22&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0251%3Asection%3D17" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19932" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5970" RevisionGUID="a89997d0-bee9-4984-8153-017c383add43" CreationDate="2019-10-18T13:13:33.870" UserId="6429" Text="An easy way to understand this (in Christian theology, that is), is that God is said to have created mankind. He also created animals. But while man was created, it was created out of a likeness of God, whilst still being not completely divine. Therefore, anything lesser than an angel and God Himself, could be considered &quot;animalistic,&quot; or &quot;beastly.&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19933" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5971" RevisionGUID="76499e57-06a4-4a22-9e4e-8a2aad1452b2" CreationDate="2019-10-19T15:50:23.343" UserId="3747" Text="Iliad ends with the burial of the Hector. There is nothing about death of Achilles, only predicted by Hector. In Greek Mythology did he really died? Or was it added in Rome Mythology together with his week spot on the heel and the whole 'bathing in the Styx stuff'?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19934" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5971" RevisionGUID="76499e57-06a4-4a22-9e4e-8a2aad1452b2" CreationDate="2019-10-19T15:50:23.343" UserId="3747" Text="Death of Achilles" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19935" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5971" RevisionGUID="76499e57-06a4-4a22-9e4e-8a2aad1452b2" CreationDate="2019-10-19T15:50:23.343" UserId="3747" Text="|greek|achilles|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19936" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5972" RevisionGUID="a053d01d-7b00-460c-a5cc-3a2d22e6dedd" CreationDate="2019-10-19T19:05:59.833" UserId="1317" Text="The death of Achilles is related in _[Aethiopis](https://www.livius.org/sources/content/epic-cycle/aethiopis/)_ by Arctinus of Miletus in the 8th Century BCE. This is one of the poems the Ancient Greeks collected into an &quot;[Epic Cycle](https://www.livius.org/sources/content/epic-cycle/)&quot; centered around the events of the Trojan War. Like most of the Epic Cycle except _Iliad_ and _Odyssey_,  _Aethiopis_ is mostly lost, except for a five lines and second-century CE summary (in Greek) by Proclus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Cypria, described in the preceding book, has its sequel in the Iliad of Homer, which is followed in turn by the five books of the Aethiopis, the work of Arctinus of Miletus. Their contents are as follows. The Amazon Penthesileia, the daughter of Ares and of Thracian race, comes to aid the Trojans, and after showing great prowess, is killed by Achilles and buried by the Trojans. Achilles then slays Thersites for abusing and reviling him for his supposed love for Penthesileia. As a result a dispute arises amongst the Achaeans over the killing of Thersites, and Achilles sails to Lesbos and after sacrificing to Apollo, Artemis, and Leto, is purified by Odysseus from bloodshed. Then Memnon, the son of Eos, wearing armour made by Hephaestus, comes to help the Trojans, and Thetis tells her son about Memnon. A battle takes place in which Antilochus is slain by Memnon and Memnon by Achilles. Eos then obtains of Zeus and bestows upon her son immortality; but **Achilles routs the Trojans, and, rushing into the city with them, is killed by Paris and Apollo**. A great struggle for the body then follows, Aias taking up the body and carrying it to the ships, while Odysseus drives off the Trojans behind. The Achaeans then bury Antilochus and lay out the body of Achilles, while Thetis, arriving with the Muses and her sisters, bewails her son, whom she afterwards catches away from the pyre and transports to the White Island. After this, the Achaeans pile him a cairn and hold games in his honour. Lastly a dispute arises between Odysseus and Aias over the arms of Achilles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Proclus, Chrestomathia, from the Loeb Classic Library, translated by Hugh G. Evelyn-White, available at the [Theoi Project](https://www.theoi.com/Text/EpicCycle.html#Aethiopis)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19937" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5971" RevisionGUID="0c6b3471-0c3c-4624-b0ae-ab41cc94d776" CreationDate="2019-10-19T21:04:45.943" UserId="5726" Comment="corrected spelling" Text="The Iliad ends with the burial of Hector. There is nothing about the death of Achilles, only predicted by Hector. In Greek Mythology did he really die? Or was it added in Roman Mythology together with his weak spot on the heel and the whole &quot;bathing in the Styx stuff&quot;?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19939" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5974" RevisionGUID="5417abf2-8f1d-40dc-8bfe-7f444dceeb88" CreationDate="2019-10-20T02:16:45.037" UserId="2682" Text="BASICS&#xD;&#xA;==========&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The most prevalent version of his name in literature across time thus&#xD;&#xA;   far is **Ephialtes**.&#xD;&#xA; - There seems to be a lost myth in which he does indeed get into a&#xD;&#xA;   fight with and is defeated by a hero, none other than **Herakles**&#xD;&#xA;   [Hercules] himself. In the clearest reference to this story, the daimon's name *is* Epiales; and apparently after the confrontation, Epiales turns into a hedgehog.&#xD;&#xA; - He is said to be a messenger, quite similar to&#xD;&#xA;   an angel, sent (benevolently) by the healing-god **Asklepios** [Asclepius]; and he is&#xD;&#xA;   also sometimes identified with the woodland deity **Pan**.&#xD;&#xA; - He survives into Modern Greek folklore (as recently as the 1600s if not&#xD;&#xA;   later still than that) as a sort of goblin identified with certain&#xD;&#xA;   other boogeymen haunting the popular culture of Greece. As with the ancient Ephialtes, certain writers explain away the nightmare-visions of these creatures as merely the result of over-eating and its consequent bad digestion, or that they are just tall tales invented to mess with little kids and with the uneducated and illiterate (which, until fairly recent modern times, makes up the bulk of the human population).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;DETAILS&#xD;&#xA;===========&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is something which appears to fit the criteria of your question precisely, but it is in German, with generous sprinklings of (completely untranslated) Ancient Greek (complete with some Latin occasionally peppered in for good measure):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; [***Ephialtes**: Eine pathologisch-mythologische Abhandlung über die Alpträume und Alpdämonen des klassischen Altertums*](https://archive.org/details/BIUSante_22155)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was written (132 pages) by **Wilhelm Heinrich Roscher** and published 1900, in Leipzig, in Vol. 20 of The Treatises of the Philological-Historical Class of the Royal Saxon Society of Sciences. It is fully accessible in its entirety at the link above and is quite comprehensive.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An English translation&lt;sup&gt;✭&lt;/sup&gt; of it is available on the same website but only in [Limited Book Preview](https://archive.org/details/pannightmare00rosc) form (which, as of the time of this post, is literally just the first couple of pages), and the full title of which is: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; ***Pan and the Nightmare***:  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sup&gt;Being the Only English Translation (from the German by A.V. O'Brien, M.D.) of&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *Ephialtes: A Pathological-Mythological Treatise on the Nightmare in Classical Antiquity*,  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sup&gt;by Wilhelm Heinrich Roscher (1900), togther with&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; An Essay on Pan,   &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sup&gt;Serving as a Psychological Introduction to Roscher's *Ephialtes*,  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; by James Hillman  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; 1972, Spring Publications&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond this, as far as my findings go, there is no single Internet source in English containing a consolidation of all the information you're looking for (at least not as of the time of this posting).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Definition-Quest**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most of the original literature mentioning the subject refers to him, or *it*, as *Ephialtes* rather than Epiales. The bulk of information on Ephialtes is in medical manuals dealing with defining and describing diseases and other ailments, accompanied by treatment instructions for them. As summarised in the short Wikipedia article [&quot;Ephialtes (illness)&quot;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephialtes_(illness)), this term generally refers to an anxiety disorder which causes sleep paralysis connected with dreaming:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The idea of an incubus as a causative factor in nightmares stemmed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from the belief that some spirit or ghostly person crept in during the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; night and lay upon the sleeper, so as to constrict the chest and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; breathing—leading to a sense of suffocation, side by side with a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; terrifying dream of being either crushed or (in the case of a woman)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sexually violated by the (male) incubus or ephialtes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**In English and German**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As [another Wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mare_(folklore)) points out, the English word *nightmare* itself happens to originate from &quot;a malicious entity in Germanic and Slavic folklore that rides on people's chests while they sleep, bringing on bad dreams&quot;. In German &quot;nightmares&quot; are *Alpträume*, &quot;elf-dreams,&quot; and *Alpdrücke*, &quot;elf-oppression&quot; or &quot;elf-pressures,&quot; with an identical concept, in which an [*Alp*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alp_(folklore)#Post-medieval_folklore), &quot;elf,&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sits astride a sleeper's chest and becomes heavier until the crushing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; weight awakens the terrified and breathless dreamer. The victim awakes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; unable to move under the *Alp*'s weight. This may have been an early&#xD;&#xA;&gt; explanation for sleep apnea and sleep paralysis, as well as night&#xD;&#xA;&gt; terrors. It may also include lucid dreams.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roscher is also the general editor of the Ausführliches Lexikon der griechischen und römischen Mythologie, which contains a brief [&quot;Ephialtes&quot; article](https://archive.org/details/Roscher/page/n651) differentiating among three different personages bearing this name. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first two are two different giants, both of whom fought against the gods. Here is my translation of the main portion of the entry on the third among these characters:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a *Spukgeist* {&quot;spook-spirit&quot;} of the same kind as the *incubus* and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the German *Alpe*; he is designated as a demon and identified with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pan... He is also called *Epialtes*, *Epiales*,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Epheles*, *Epopheles*, and so on; *Tiphys*, *Euopan*, *Baboutzikarios*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The article also cites Hesychius of Alexandria making reference to him as *Opheles*. **Book 1 of Strabo's *Geography*** is also cited as a source, in which the author disparages the myths as merely the means by which bumpkins are indoctrinated into superstition and by which children are amused and terrified. In so saying Strabo then lists Ephialtes together with Lamia, &quot;the Gorgon&quot; and Mormolyke as nothing more than kid-stuff. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tussling with Herakles&#xD;&#xA;----------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sophron of Syracuse** wrote mimes which currently survive only in fragments. The reason I refer to the story of the confrontation between Ephialtes and Herakles as a lost myth is because we know about it solely from a few of the aforementioned fragments, Numbered 68-73 (or 67-72 in a different system), which afford us only tantalisingly scant (and bizarre) detail. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Alan H. Sommerstein's 2009 book *Talking About Laughter: And Other Studies in Greek Comedy* (Oxford University Press) breaks it down (pp. 156-157), telling us of:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the nightmare-demon Epioles or Epiales, who suffocates (someone's? his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; own?) father, but is himself suffocated by Herakles and in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; process turns, apparently, into a hedgehog. A version of Epiales&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reappears, as Mastromarco among others has noted, as a victim of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Herakles-Aristophanes in *Wasps* 1038-9 (and also, as we shall see&#xD;&#xA;&gt; later, in a comedy by Phrynichos). Mastromarco seems to equate him&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with the giant Ephialtes, slain by Herakles (and Apollo) in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gigantomachy [21] (Apollod. 1.6.2); but there is no evidence,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; literary or artistic, of any connection whatever between the Giants,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whose typical weapons are boulders and whom Herakles fights with bows&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and arrows, and the nightmare-demon who chokes and is choked with bare&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hands. It is quite likely that the idea of a combat between Herakles&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and the folklore bogy Epiales was an invention of Sophron's, probably&#xD;&#xA;&gt; inspired by the similarity of name between Ēpiales and Ĕphialtes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The 1907 Neue Bearbeitung (Stuttgart) of Paulys Real-Encyclopädie der classischen Altertumswissenschaft contains an &quot;Epiales&quot; article which (in my own translation from the German) defines the personage as &quot;a *Spukdaemon* {'spook-daemon'} comparable to our *Alp* {'elf'}&quot; and interpreting this story as being comedic because herein &quot;Herakles himself acts as an *Alp* against the *Alp*,&quot; rendering unto the dream-demon a taste of his own medicine.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most relevant part of Roscher's *Ephialtes* to you would be [pp. 52-53](https://archive.org/details/BIUSante_22155/page/n53), wherein this story is discussed, after going through the numerous different forms of this entity's name provided by Eustathius of Thessalonica. Here is my own translation thereof:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But by far the most important thing we learn from Eustathius's note is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the myth contained in the fragment of Sophron, which shows that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Herakles was also haunted by the demon of nightmare (and fever?), but&#xD;&#xA;&gt; giving tit for tat, he choked that fiend in the same way he had tried&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to strangle him. As I have already explained in the Rh. M. 1898, p.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 179, in this otherwise lost legend we have to see a parallel to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; battle of Herakles with *Γῆρας*, Old Age personified, transmitted only&#xD;&#xA;&gt; through archaic artwork, or with Thanatos in Euripides' *Alkestis*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roscher then goes on to reference [Plate XXXVI](https://archive.org/details/antiquegemsrings02king/page/n173) in Vol. 2 of Charles William King's collection *Antique Gems and Rings*. He mentions Illustration #3 of this plate but this seems to be an error. I think he must mean #5 instead since he goes on to describe (in my own translation) what must be this image from that page of King's book:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![King - AntiqueGems+Rings Vol.2, Pl. 36, No.5][1]][1]      &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Perhaps that myth of Epiales and Herakles is within {*this picture*} ...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Herakles sits in the posture of one who is exhausted or just falling&#xD;&#xA;&gt; asleep, his head and torso leaning forward, his right hand resting on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his club, on a stone (?); approaching from behind, surreptitiously, so&#xD;&#xA;&gt; it would appear, is a powerful bearded man with large wings, who holds&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a branch or poppy-stem in his left hand, and with his right, seems to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; grasp the hero's throat as though to strangle it (cf. therefore the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; definition of *Ήπιάλης* {*Hepiales*} as a demon, *ὅς τοῖς κοιμωμένοις&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ἐφέρπει* or *ἐπέρχεται* in Bekk. An. 42, I &amp; in Etym. M. 434, 5).&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Similarly, Hypnos often appears in artwork as a bearded demon, usually&#xD;&#xA;&gt; standing behind the sleeper, less often walking towards him, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; casting sleep from a horn above him; sometimes he touches the temples&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the weary person with a branch or poppy-stalk wet with lethaean dew;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he is often winged. It scarcely needs to be remarked that the demon of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the nightmare, which acts only in sleep or in the stage immediately&#xD;&#xA;&gt; preceding it (see pp. 11 &amp; 24), or the fever (*ήπίαλος*) accompanied&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by restless, frightful dreams, i.e. *Ήπιάλης*, must from the outset&#xD;&#xA;&gt; have had many things in common with Hypnos (and Oneiros).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Footnote 149 on p. 53 points out that in his *Fabulae*, the Roman writer Hyginus lists names of Somnia, &quot;Dreams&quot; (i.e. the personifications and spirits of dreams), who were born, among other entities, to Erebus (Darkness) and Nox (Night). One of these names is Epaphus, and, like several other things in Hyginus, is most likely a mistake, which Roscher says should be read as &quot;Epialus.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He does make reference, however, to a 4-century BC magical tablet from Crete (quoted in untranslated Ancient Greek in that footnote), containing a chant saying (going by my own novice translation), &quot;Epaphos, Epaphos, Epaphos, begone!&quot; Another author, Schmidt, is cited here as interpreting Epaphos to be: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;a kind of *Alp*&quot;. However, as several undoubted demons in animal form &#xD;&#xA;&gt; are named one after another in these verses... it is thus probable to me &#xD;&#xA;&gt; that we also have to perceive in *ἕπαφος* {*epaphos*} an animal demon, &#xD;&#xA;&gt; namely the hoopoe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;OTHER SOURCES&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Phrynichus the Comedian**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As with Sophron, the work of the comic poet Phrynichus can now be found only in scant fragmentary condition. One of the ten plays that he wrote, Sommerstein (on p. 173 of his book) tells us:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; appears to have been named after the nightmare-demon Epialtes, who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in... fr. 1... appears to be addressing the audience and saying he was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; given his name 'on account of his manly virtue' (*ἀνδραγαθίας&#xD;&#xA;&gt; οὕνεκα*); it looks very much as if the audience's sympathies are to be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; engaged on Epialtes' side right from the start.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And we know virtually nothing else about this theatre-piece, which I have otherwise seen generally entitled *Ephialtes* (rather than *Epialtes*).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To your Question regarding &quot;all of the details,&quot; the most pertinent resource after Roscher's *Ephialtes* is the 2018 book published by Brill (Leiden &amp; Boston), ed. Chiara Thumiger &amp; P.N. Singer, *Mental Illness in Ancient Medicine: From Celsus to Paul of Aegina*. For our purposes, the book's second chapter, by **Nadine Metzger**, entitled '**&quot;Not a *Daimōn*, but a Severe Illness&quot;**: Oribasius, Posidonius and Later Ancient Perspectives on Superhuman Agents Causing Disease,' is the one most applicable. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Central to your query is the second half of the chapter (pp. 94-106), which Metzger entitles &quot;[**The Case of Ephialtes in Fourth-Century Medicine**](https://books.google.com/books?id=yntTDwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA94#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false)&quot;, and wherein (pp. 94-95) she writes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Connections are made in all the sources between Ephialtes and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *epilēpsia*, and their respective attacks are considered comparable with one another—one while awake, one during sleep. Accordingly, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; late antique compilers place their comparatively short chapters on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ephialtes directly before the much more important *epilēpsia*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; categorising both as a sickness of the head. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Chapters on Ephialtes can be found in the medical compilations of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Oribasius (*Synopsis*), Aëtius of Amida, Paul of Aegina and Paulus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Nicaeus...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Paulus Nicaeus writes that many people believe Ephialtes to be a god&#xD;&#xA;&gt; or *daimōn* whch attacks sufferers at night.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is then pointed out that these writers' opinions differ regarding the origin of this Ephialtes, whereupon **Aëtius 6.12** is cited as quoting **Posidonius** (pp. 95-96):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The so-called Ephialtes is no *daimōn*, but rather a sickness and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; premonitory symptom of *epilēpsia*, *mania* and *apoplēxia*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A Message of Healing from Asklepios&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to **Oribasius' *Synopsis* 8.2** (on p. 96 of *Mental Illness in Ancient Medicine*):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The so-called Ephialtes is no evil *daimōn*, but rather on the one&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hand a serious illness, and on the other hand a heavenly interpreter&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and servant of Asclepius.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Metzger continues on pp. 100-101:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This &quot;emissary of Asclepius&quot; refers to the healing practice of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; incubation, in which a cure is granted or therapeutic measures&#xD;&#xA;&gt; revealed to the suffering patient through a dream vision in a shrine&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to Asclepius. A dream vision could also provide insight into one's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; health independently of an incubation; numerous examples of such&#xD;&#xA;&gt; prognostic dreams can be found in Artemidorus' work on dream&#xD;&#xA;&gt; interpretation, written in the second half of the second century CE. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; As a matter of fact, Artemidorus specifically discusses Ephialtes in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his dream book. The passage places central importance on the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; characteristic which defines Ephialtes in the medical sources, namely&#xD;&#xA;&gt; nightmare oppression. Other than that Ephialtes is able to speak with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dreamers, give something to them, or engage them in sexual&#xD;&#xA;&gt; intercourse. He can make prophecies and, most importantly, give the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sick a positive prognosis...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;R.J. White's translation of **Artemidorus' *Oneirocritica**: Interpretation of Dreams* **2.37** is then quoted:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Regardless of what he does when he approaches, it signifies that the sick&#xD;&#xA;&gt; will recover. For he never associates with a man who is going to die.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding this, Metzger says (p. 101) that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Similarly to Artemidorus, Oribasius' text contains the possibility of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ephialtes having a medical-prognostic function too; his mentioning of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Asclepius as a healing god, who usually appears to sick people in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dreams to provide them with insight into their condition, implies that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his &quot;mediator&quot; Ephialtes fulfils the same function. Apparently,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Oribasius not only displays an open-minded attitude towards the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; possibility of heavenly influence on the human body, but recognises&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the healing powers of Asclepius transmitted through his emissaries...&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover on p. 102:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;By Oribasius' time, the idea of a daimonic mediator operating between&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Asclepius and the human patient has unfolded in Neoplatonic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; philosophy. Primarily this cosmology tends to place higher deities&#xD;&#xA;&gt; such as Asclepius far into transcendency and excludes them from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; interacting with mortal materiality, generally considered to be in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; opposition to the heavenly sphere. To maintain this higher deity's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; influence on the world, a messenger—a daimonic intermediary—which&#xD;&#xA;&gt; makes contact with the human must be assumed. This allows the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; philosophically important distance between man and god to be upheld&#xD;&#xA;&gt; over the course of this contact. The idea can already be found in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Plato's *Symposium*, in which Eros is described as intermediary&#xD;&#xA;&gt; between the gods and humans (*ἑρμηνεῦον καὶ διαπορθμεῦον*). *Daimones*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; are made of more material matter (*ὕλη*) than the gods, which allows&#xD;&#xA;&gt; them to interact with the material world in a way in which the gods cannot.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This concept becomes elaborately fleshed out in Neoplatonic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; demonology.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus Henk Versnel elaborates in his book *Coping with the Gods: Wayward Readings in Greek Theology* (Brill, 2011:404) that Artemidorus in this sense enumerates Ephialtes together with Hekate and Pan as &quot;the *epigegoi* (terrestrial) and *aisthetoi* gods (who can be perceived with the senses as opposed to those through intellect only: *noetoi*).&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Prescriptions Against Bad Dreams&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jovan Bilbija contributes the 10th chapter, entitled &quot;The Stuff of Dreams: Substances and Dreams in Greek and Latin Literature&quot; (pp. 217-251) to the 2013 Routledge book *Dreams, Healing, and Medicine in Greece: From Antiquity to the Present* (ed. Steven Oberhelman).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to p. 223 thereof: &quot;In medical literature, substances for preventing bad dreams are generally medicines against ἐφιάλτης/*incubus*.&quot; Bilbija then summarises the basic variations of purgatives to be ingested and talismans to be worn in order to rid oneself of this *ephialtes-incubus*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On p. 238 some ancient writers are quoted recommending *hellebore*, regarding which Bilbija says in Footnote 114:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;In our passages it is the purgative black hellebore (*Helleborus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cyclophyllus* Boiss.); cf. C. Hünemörder, *BNP*, s.v. &quot;Hellebore.&quot; The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; term ἑλλέβορος was also used for *Veratrum album* L.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Helleborus cyclophyllus][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Entry A for this plant is **Rufus of Ephesus *apud* Oribasius, *Medical Questions* 7.26.177**:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hellebore (ἑλλέβορος) can be administered as a purgative (καθαρτήριον)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to those who are throttled at night by a nightmare (ἐφιάλτης).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Footnote 115 (same page):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Elsewhere, Oribasius (*Medical Questions* 7.26.15 [p. 228, 31-p.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 229, 3 Raeder]) mentions purgation as a remedy for frightening and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; disturbing dreams (ἐνύπνια φοβερὰ καὶ ταραχώδη).&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Entry B for the same plant (on the same page) is **Oribasius, *Synopsis for Eustathius* 8.2** (p. 245, 10-12 Raeder):             &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hellebore is especially useful to those who suffer from nightmares&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (ἐφιάλτικοί). They should be given one drachma of black hellebore&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (μέλας ἑλλέβορος) mixed with three obols of scammony (σκαμμωνία) and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; some aromatics like anise, wild carrot, or parsley.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Hiera of Colocynth* is listed next, which, according to Bilbija, denotes the *Citrullus colocynthis*. He quotes Scribonius Largus (100), who, writing in Latin, recommends this for &quot;relief to those who suffer from shortness of breath, asphyxiation, and nightmare (*incubo*).&quot; The Greek quotes continue (on p. 239) with more from the same above-cited section of Oribasius' *Synopsis* as Entry B for this plant:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The hiera of colocynth (ἡ διὰ τῆς σικυωνίασ ἱερά) is very serviceable&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to those who suffer from nightmares (ἐφιάλτικοί). Patients should keep&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their diet light and avoid flatulent food.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Citrullus colocynthis][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Entry C for this plant is **Aëtius of Amida 6.12** (p. 152, 27-8 Olivieri):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When a person suffers from nightmares because of an unhealthy state of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the humors (κακοχυμία), one may purge him with the hiera of Archigenes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (ἡ ἱερά Αρχιγένουσ).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Footnote 124: &quot;Aëtius provides a recipe for this hiera of colocynth at 3.115 (p. 304, 9-16 Olivieri).&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And that covers all of the &quot;*Other references not currently quoted*&quot; on your Theoi.com Epiales page, except for the following, also listed in *Dreams, Healing, and Medicine in Greece*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Dioscorides 3.140**: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Drinking 15 black grains (κόκκοι) of peony (γλυκισίδη) with hydromel&#xD;&#xA;&gt; or wine will help those who are throttled (οἱ πνιγόμενοι) by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; nightmares (ἐφιάλται). It also helps those with stomach problems and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; it relieves women with a suffocating or painful womb.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Dioscorides, *On Simple Medicines* 1.28**: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Those who are often suffocated by nightmares (οἱ ὑπὸ τῶν ἐφιαλτῶν&#xD;&#xA;&gt; πνιγόμενοι) are healed by frequent drinks of a mixture of 15 black&#xD;&#xA;&gt; grains of peony (γλυκισίδη) with water.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Oribasius, *Synopsis for Eustathius* 8.2** (p. 245, 13-15 Raeder):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Those who suffer from nightmares (ἐφιάλτικοί) will benefit from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; frequently drinking 15 pounded grains of peony (παιωνία) with water.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Based on those, if one were to make a single English word for the victims of Ephialtes (rather than the translation &quot;those who suffer from/ are strangled by nightmares&quot;), it should probably be &quot;ephialtics&quot; (cf. *epipleptics*).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Identification with Modern Ghouls&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The **Suda** entry &quot;Ephialtes&quot; says that he is &quot;the one called by many ***Baboutzikarios***&quot; just before a second definition: &quot;The vapour which rises into the head, caused by overeating and indigestion, is called *ephialtes* by physicians.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Evy Johanne Håland says in her book *Competing Ideologies in Greek Culture, Ancient and Modern* (Cambridge Scholars Publishing, 2019:119) that the Baboutzikarios is said to be of Slavic origin. This would then dovetail with our English night-*mare*, which as we have already observed (see the &quot;In English and German&quot; section of this Answer) above, also has a Slavic connection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Leo Allatius published a sort of cultural guidebook in 1645, which Karen Hartnup expounds upon in her own 2004 book which incorporates the title of his text into its own: *'On the Beliefs of the Greeks': Leo Allatios and Popular Orthodoxy* (Brill: Leiden &amp; Boston). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hartnup reports the following about Allatius' narration of some of the practices of his fellow Greek Orthodox Christians in the 1600s (pp. 29-30, with my own emphasis):  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;In chapter X Allatios accepts Psellos' interpretation of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *babutzikarios*, a kind of frightening goblin that is supposed to appear over the Christmas period... Even though such demons do not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; exist, people actually see the demonic beings but this is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; because of hallucinations brough about by over-indulgence in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; seasonal festivities. Allatios points out that this *exotiko* is not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; always understood this way. The Byzantine dictionary *Suidas*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; describes the *babutzikarios* in terms of *ephialtes* — a nightmare&#xD;&#xA;&gt; brought on by indigestion. However, the 'common people' continue to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; believe that those born at Christmas are every year possessed by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; devil during this week and attack people on the roads, asking 'Rope or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lead?' Those who reply 'Lead', the possessed person crushes to death;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; those who reply 'Rope', he sets free. The Greeks distract the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; possessed over the Christmas season by making them count the holes in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a sieve. This kind of *babutzikarios* is identical to the creature&#xD;&#xA;&gt; called by others '***kallikantzaros***', which is the focus of Allatios'&#xD;&#xA;&gt; next chapter...&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*Kallikantzaroi* are also goblin-like creatures that appear&#xD;&#xA;&gt; between Christmas and the New Year. People try to ward them off by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wearing new clothes and the population of Chios believes that they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; congregate in wooded and inaccessible places, where those of unsound&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mind are also thought to originate. In order to prevent those born&#xD;&#xA;&gt; between Christmas and New Year becoming *kallikantzaroi* they burn the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; soles of their feet and remove their nails.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Endnote***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;✭ *Which comes to my attention courtesy of tblue, a fellow Mythology StackExchange user.*&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/9SkAQ.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/6y0CK.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Rlkdo.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19941" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5972" RevisionGUID="47a9ddbb-6730-43ff-8672-7c99d4867ffe" CreationDate="2019-10-20T08:18:26.060" UserId="1317" Comment="Fix typo" Text="The death of Achilles is related in _[Aethiopis](https://www.livius.org/sources/content/epic-cycle/aethiopis/)_ by Arctinus of Miletus in the 8th Century BCE. This is one of the poems the Ancient Greeks collected into an &quot;[Epic Cycle](https://www.livius.org/sources/content/epic-cycle/)&quot; centered around the events of the Trojan War. Like most of the Epic Cycle except _Iliad_ and _Odyssey_,  _Aethiopis_ is mostly lost, except for five lines and second-century CE summary (in Greek) by Proclus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Cypria, described in the preceding book, has its sequel in the Iliad of Homer, which is followed in turn by the five books of the Aethiopis, the work of Arctinus of Miletus. Their contents are as follows. The Amazon Penthesileia, the daughter of Ares and of Thracian race, comes to aid the Trojans, and after showing great prowess, is killed by Achilles and buried by the Trojans. Achilles then slays Thersites for abusing and reviling him for his supposed love for Penthesileia. As a result a dispute arises amongst the Achaeans over the killing of Thersites, and Achilles sails to Lesbos and after sacrificing to Apollo, Artemis, and Leto, is purified by Odysseus from bloodshed. Then Memnon, the son of Eos, wearing armour made by Hephaestus, comes to help the Trojans, and Thetis tells her son about Memnon. A battle takes place in which Antilochus is slain by Memnon and Memnon by Achilles. Eos then obtains of Zeus and bestows upon her son immortality; but **Achilles routs the Trojans, and, rushing into the city with them, is killed by Paris and Apollo**. A great struggle for the body then follows, Aias taking up the body and carrying it to the ships, while Odysseus drives off the Trojans behind. The Achaeans then bury Antilochus and lay out the body of Achilles, while Thetis, arriving with the Muses and her sisters, bewails her son, whom she afterwards catches away from the pyre and transports to the White Island. After this, the Achaeans pile him a cairn and hold games in his honour. Lastly a dispute arises between Odysseus and Aias over the arms of Achilles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Proclus, Chrestomathia, from the Loeb Classic Library, translated by Hugh G. Evelyn-White, available at the [Theoi Project](https://www.theoi.com/Text/EpicCycle.html#Aethiopis)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19942" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4744" RevisionGUID="f0a65605-1abd-4686-af5c-5cc532a17ced" CreationDate="2019-10-20T15:02:15.350" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="19945" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5975" RevisionGUID="ce103ddb-c1dc-4784-aa01-6cdc8736dbb6" CreationDate="2019-10-21T21:08:06.887" UserId="2682" Text="We don't really know... although I have a theory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Several ancient sources mention this nymph Thaleia (or Thalia) but only one, Stephanus of Byzantium, s.v. *Palikê*, says anything about her parentage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the dozens of the lost works of the playwright Aeschylus is mentioned by other authors using so many different versions of its title that there is a fair amount of modern debate about which title is the &quot;real&quot; one among *Aitne* (or *Aetna*), *Aitnai* and *Aitnaiai*, whose meanings would each signify rather different concepts affecting the (speculative) interpretation of the play's content.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Aitna**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Stephanus, this *Aitna/i/ai* play is the source for Hephaistos [Hephaestus] being Thaleia's father. No mother is mentioned. I think, though, that it's probably **Aitna**/Aitne [Aetna].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thaleia's primary role in the mythology is to become the mother, by Zeus, of the twin Sicilian daemons called the Palikoi [Palici]. There is also scholarly debate about whether or not the Aeschylus play referenced by Stephanus contained, as part of its main plot, Thaleia's abduction by Zeus and the subsequent birth of the Palikoi, as laid out, e.g., in Letizia Poli-Palladini's 2001 article &quot;Some Reflections on Aeschylus' *Aetnae(ae)*&quot; in the Journal for the Rheinisches Museum für Philologie. Perhaps such information as Thaleia's mother's identity was revealed in the play.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Servius' Commentary on Virgil's *Aeneid* 9.584, there are &quot;others&quot; who say that the Palikoi  are the sons, not of Zeus and Thaleia, but of Hephaistos and Aitna (i.e. under their Roman names Vulcan and Aetna, since Servius is writing in Latin).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we combined those two sources, we have (what I figure is a plausible) alternate tradition which excludes Zeus and in which Hephaistos is the father of Thaleia as well as of the Palikoi, with Aitna being the mother of all three offspring.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Thaleia = Aitna ?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The inclusion of Aitna as a character in this throws further confusion onto the pile. Louise Mary Savocchi, in her 2012 Master's thesis &quot;The Deinomenids of Sicily: The Appearance and Representation of a Greek Dynastic Tyranny in the Western Colonies,&quot; mentions an idea which is contested in Poli-Palladini's article, i.e., that Thaleia and Aitna are actually aliases for the same personage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If this is the case, that would cast the answer to your Question towards the (at least) three different versions of Aitna's parentage, in only one of which her mother is explicitly named, and that is where is appears as a daughter of Ouranos (the Sky) and Gaia (the Earth).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the different appearances of Aitna, it is tricky to tell whether she is supposed to be &quot;a nymph, woman, city and/or a volcano,&quot; especially in connection with the Aeschylus play, as pointed out by David G. Smith in &quot;The Reception of Aeschylus in Sicily,&quot; which is Ch. 1 of *Brill's Companion to the Reception of Aeschylus* (ed. Rebecca Futo Kennedy, 2017).     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It would make sense for the personification of the volcanic Mt Aetna to be a daughter of Heaven and Earth. There are, however, less common occurrences of Aitna as a daughter of the Hundred-Handed Giant Briareus or of the Titan Okeanos [Oceanus]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Maternity is not provided for the latter two versions, although we could perhaps guess fairly easily in either case. Briareus' wife Kymopoleia [Cymopoleia] is a likely candidate in the former, while either Tethys (Okeanos' wife) or Gaia (the mother of some of Okeanos' other children) is probably intended in the latter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond all that dot-connecting, though, we are simply not told by whom Thaleia is supposed to have been borne to Hephaistos, a parallel that occurs with about half of all the fire-god's children. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19946" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5976" RevisionGUID="7786bc47-b308-4e3e-a522-88f9828f7cc9" CreationDate="2019-10-23T10:26:07.670" UserId="6438" Text="In Greek mythology, it was said that the heroes Heracles and Theseus invented pankration as a result of using both wrestling and boxing in their confrontations with opponents. Theseus was said to have utilized his extraordinary pankration skills to defeat the dreaded Minotaur in the Labyrinth. Heracles was said to have subdued the Nemean lion using pankration, and was often depicted in ancient artwork doing that.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any other mythological Greek heroes that used pankration? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you for any answers and help." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19947" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5976" RevisionGUID="7786bc47-b308-4e3e-a522-88f9828f7cc9" CreationDate="2019-10-23T10:26:07.670" UserId="6438" Text="Which Greek heroes used pankration?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19948" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5976" RevisionGUID="7786bc47-b308-4e3e-a522-88f9828f7cc9" CreationDate="2019-10-23T10:26:07.670" UserId="6438" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19949" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5976" RevisionGUID="4017651b-342a-4238-8174-a2c3d217989a" CreationDate="2019-10-23T10:29:44.543" UserId="5726" Comment="added applicable tags" Text="|greek|myth-identification|demi-gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19952" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5978" RevisionGUID="6ba504e9-9643-49da-b2fd-ea06c4715e54" CreationDate="2019-10-24T03:29:24.430" UserId="6440" Text="The &quot;guides&quot; at most Maya sites tell the most outrageous stories in order to get better tips.  Other &quot;facts&quot; overheard at Chichen: The Maya imported their jade from China.  The buildings were designed to acoustically propagate sound.  The protuberances in the ear-flares are penises.  Cranial deformation is a bi-product of sex with aliens.  The Maya threw virgins into the cenotes.  The Spanish tore apart the Monjas looking for gold." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19955" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5903" RevisionGUID="3ae70055-4962-4ae9-9b7d-d7127b2a854b" CreationDate="2019-10-24T17:02:00.250" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="19959" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5974" RevisionGUID="e55a0877-4d9a-452e-a9ad-9d99b313ce82" CreationDate="2019-10-25T18:06:31.047" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected spelling, fixed grammar, improved formatting &amp; added some info" Text="BASICS&#xD;&#xA;==========&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The most prevalent version of his name in literature across time thus&#xD;&#xA;   far is **Ephialtes**.&#xD;&#xA; - There seems to be a lost myth in which he does indeed get into a&#xD;&#xA;   fight with and is defeated by a hero, none other than **Herakles**&#xD;&#xA;   [Hercules] himself. In the clearest reference to this story, the daimon's name *is* Epiales; and apparently after the confrontation, Epiales turns into a hedgehog.&#xD;&#xA; - He is said to be a messenger, quite similar to&#xD;&#xA;   an angel, sent (benevolently) by the healing-god **Asklepios** [Asclepius]; and he is&#xD;&#xA;   also sometimes identified with the woodland deity **Pan**.&#xD;&#xA; - He survives into Modern Greek folklore (as recently as the 1600s if not&#xD;&#xA;   later still than that) as a sort of goblin identified with certain&#xD;&#xA;   other boogeymen haunting the popular culture of Greece. As with the ancient Ephialtes, certain writers explain away the nightmare-visions of these creatures as merely the result of over-eating and its consequent bad digestion, or that they are just tall tales invented to mess with little kids and with the uneducated and illiterate (which, until fairly recent modern times, happens to make up the bulk of the human population).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;DETAILS&#xD;&#xA;===========&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is something which appears to fit the criteria of your question precisely, but it is in German, with generous sprinklings of (completely untranslated) Ancient Greek (complete with some Latin occasionally peppered in for good measure):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; [***Ephialtes**: Eine pathologisch-mythologische Abhandlung über die Alpträume und Alpdämonen des klassischen Altertums*](https://archive.org/details/BIUSante_22155)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was written (132 pages) by **Wilhelm Heinrich Roscher** and published 1900, in Leipzig, in Vol. 20 of The Treatises of the Philological-Historical Class of the Royal Saxon Society of Sciences. It is fully accessible in its entirety at the link above and is quite comprehensive.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An English translation&lt;sup&gt;✭&lt;/sup&gt; of it is available on the same website but only in [Limited Book Preview](https://archive.org/details/pannightmare00rosc) form (which, as of the time of this post, is literally just the first couple of pages), and the full title of which is: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; ***Pan and the Nightmare***:  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sup&gt;Being the Only English Translation (from the German by A.V. O'Brien, M.D.) of&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *Ephialtes: A Pathological-Mythological Treatise on the Nightmare in Classical Antiquity*,  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sup&gt;by Wilhelm Heinrich Roscher (1900), together with&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; An Essay on Pan,   &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sup&gt;Serving as a Psychological Introduction to Roscher's *Ephialtes*,  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp;by James Hillman  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; 1972, Spring Publications&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond this, as far as my findings go, there is no single Internet source in English containing a consolidation of all the information you're looking for (at least not as of the time of this posting).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Definition-Quest**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most of the original literature mentioning the subject refers to him, or *it*, as *Ephialtes* rather than Epiales. The bulk of information on Ephialtes is in medical manuals concerned with defining and describing diseases and other ailments, accompanied by treatment instructions for them. As summarised in the short Wikipedia article [&quot;Ephialtes (illness)&quot;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephialtes_(illness)), this term generally refers to an anxiety disorder which causes sleep paralysis connected with dreaming:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The idea of an incubus as a causative factor in nightmares stemmed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from the belief that some spirit or ghostly person crept in during the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; night and lay upon the sleeper, so as to constrict the chest and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; breathing—leading to a sense of suffocation, side by side with a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; terrifying dream of being either crushed or (in the case of a woman)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sexually violated by the (male) incubus or ephialtes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**In English and German**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As [another Wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mare_(folklore)) points out, the English word *nightmare* itself happens to originate from &quot;a malicious entity in Germanic and Slavic folklore that rides on people's chests while they sleep, bringing on bad dreams&quot;. In German &quot;nightmares&quot; are *Alpträume*, &quot;elf-dreams,&quot; and *Alpdrücke*, &quot;elf-oppression&quot; or &quot;elf-pressures,&quot; with an identical concept, in which an [*Alp*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alp_(folklore)#Post-medieval_folklore), &quot;elf,&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sits astride a sleeper's chest and becomes heavier until the crushing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; weight awakens the terrified and breathless dreamer. The victim awakes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; unable to move under the *Alp*'s weight. This may have been an early&#xD;&#xA;&gt; explanation for sleep apnea and sleep paralysis, as well as night&#xD;&#xA;&gt; terrors. It may also include lucid dreams.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roscher is also the general editor of the Ausführliches Lexikon der griechischen und römischen Mythologie, which contains a brief [&quot;Ephialtes&quot; article](https://archive.org/details/Roscher/page/n651) differentiating among three different personages bearing this name. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first two are two different giants, both of whom fought against the gods. Here is my translation of the main portion of the entry on the third among these characters:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a *Spukgeist* {&quot;spook-spirit&quot;} of the same kind as the *incubus* and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the German *Alpe*; he is designated as a demon and identified with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pan... He is also called *Epialtes*, *Epiales*,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Epheles*, *Epopheles*, and so on; *Tiphys*, *Euopan*, *Baboutzikarios*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The article also cites Hesychius of Alexandria, who refers to this *Spukgeist* as *Opheles*. **Book 1 of Strabo's *Geography*** is also cited as a source, in which the author disparages the myths as merely the means by which bumpkins are indoctrinated into superstition and by which children are amused and terrified. In so saying Strabo then lists Ephialtes together with Lamia, &quot;the Gorgon&quot; and Mormolyke as nothing more than kid-stuff. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tussling with Herakles&#xD;&#xA;----------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sophron of Syracuse** wrote mimes which currently survive only in fragments. The reason I refer to the story of the confrontation between Ephialtes and Herakles as a lost myth is because we know about it solely from a few of the aforementioned fragments, Numbered 68-73 (or 67-72 in a different system), which afford us only tantalisingly scant (and bizarre) detail. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Alan H. Sommerstein's 2009 book *Talking About Laughter: And Other Studies in Greek Comedy* (Oxford University Press) breaks it down (pp. 156-157), telling us of:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the nightmare-demon Epioles or Epiales, who suffocates (someone's? his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; own?) father, but is himself suffocated by Herakles and in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; process turns, apparently, into a hedgehog. A version of Epiales&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reappears, as Mastromarco among others has noted, as a victim of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Herakles-Aristophanes in *Wasps* 1038-9 (and also, as we shall see&#xD;&#xA;&gt; later, in a comedy by Phrynichos). Mastromarco seems to equate him&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with the giant Ephialtes, slain by Herakles (and Apollo) in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gigantomachy [21] (Apollod. 1.6.2); but there is no evidence,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; literary or artistic, of any connection whatever between the Giants,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whose typical weapons are boulders and whom Herakles fights with bows&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and arrows, and the nightmare-demon who chokes and is choked with bare&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hands. It is quite likely that the idea of a combat between Herakles&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and the folklore bogy Epiales was an invention of Sophron's, probably&#xD;&#xA;&gt; inspired by the similarity of name between Ēpiales and Ĕphialtes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The 1907 Neue Bearbeitung (Stuttgart) of Paulys Real-Encyclopädie der classischen Altertumswissenschaft contains an &quot;Epiales&quot; article which (in my own translation from the German) defines the personage as &quot;a *Spukdaemon* {'spook-daemon'} comparable to our *Alp* {'elf'}&quot; and interpreting this story as being comedic because herein &quot;Herakles himself acts as an *Alp* against the *Alp*,&quot; rendering unto the dream-demon a taste of his own medicine.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most relevant part of Roscher's *Ephialtes* to you would be [pp. 52-53](https://archive.org/details/BIUSante_22155/page/n53), wherein this story is discussed, after going through the numerous different forms of this entity's name provided by Eustathius of Thessalonica. Here is my own translation thereof:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But by far the most important thing we learn from Eustathius's note is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the myth contained in the fragment of Sophron, which shows that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Herakles was also haunted by the demon of nightmare (and fever?), but&#xD;&#xA;&gt; giving tit for tat, he choked that fiend in the same way he had tried&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to strangle him. As I have already explained in *RhM* 1898, p.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 179, in this otherwise lost legend we have to see a parallel to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; battle of Herakles with *Γῆρας*, Old Age personified, transmitted only&#xD;&#xA;&gt; through archaic artwork, or with Thanatos in Euripides' *Alkestis*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roscher then points to Illustration #5 of [Plate XXXVI](https://archive.org/details/antiquegemsrings02king/page/n173) in Vol. 2 of Charles William King's collection *Antique Gems and Rings*. (See image below, followed by my translation of his description thereof.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![King - AntiqueGems+Rings Vol.2, Pl. 36, No.5][1]][1]      &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Perhaps that myth of Epiales and Herakles is within {*this picture*} ...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Herakles sits in the posture of one who is exhausted or just falling&#xD;&#xA;&gt; asleep, his head and torso leaning forward, his right hand resting on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his club, on a stone (?); approaching from behind, surreptitiously, so&#xD;&#xA;&gt; it would appear, is a powerful bearded man with large wings, who holds&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a branch or poppy-stem in his left hand, and with his right, seems to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; grasp the hero's throat as though to strangle it (cf. therefore the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; definition of *Ήπιάλης* {*Hepiales*} as a demon, *ὅς τοῖς κοιμωμένοις&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ἐφέρπει* or *ἐπέρχεται* in Bekk. An. 42, I &amp; in Etym. M. 434, 5).&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Similarly, Hypnos often appears in artwork as a bearded demon, usually&#xD;&#xA;&gt; standing behind the sleeper, less often walking towards him, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; casting sleep from a horn above him; sometimes he touches the temples&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the weary person with a branch or poppy-stalk wet with lethaean dew;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he is often winged. It scarcely needs to be remarked that the demon of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the nightmare, which acts only in sleep or in the stage immediately&#xD;&#xA;&gt; preceding it (see pp. 11 &amp; 24), or the fever (*ήπίαλος*) accompanied&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by restless, frightful dreams, i.e. *Ήπιάλης*, must from the outset&#xD;&#xA;&gt; have had many things in common with Hypnos (and Oneiros).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Footnote 149 on p. 53 points out that in his *Fabulae*, the Roman writer Hyginus lists names of Somnia, &quot;Dreams&quot; (i.e. the personifications and spirits of dreams), who were born, among other entities, to Erebus (Darkness) and Nox (Night). One of these names is Epaphus, and, like several other things in Hyginus, is most likely a mistake, which Roscher says should be read as &quot;Epialus.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He does make reference, however, to a 4-century BC magical tablet from Crete (quoted in untranslated Ancient Greek in that footnote), containing a chant saying (going by my own novice translation), &quot;Epaphos, Epaphos, Epaphos, begone!&quot; Another author, Schmidt, is cited here as interpreting Epaphos to be: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;a kind of *Alp*&quot;. However, as several undoubted demons in animal form &#xD;&#xA;&gt; are named one after another in these verses... it is thus probable to me &#xD;&#xA;&gt; that we also have to perceive in *ἕπαφος* {*epaphos*} an animal demon, &#xD;&#xA;&gt; namely the hoopoe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;OTHER SOURCES&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Phrynichus the Comedian**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As with Sophron, the work of the comic poet Phrynichus can now be found only in scant fragmentary condition. One of the ten plays that he wrote, Sommerstein (on p. 173 of his book) tells us:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; appears to have been named after the nightmare-demon Epialtes, who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in... fr. 1... appears to be addressing the audience and saying he was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; given his name 'on account of his manly virtue' (*ἀνδραγαθίας&#xD;&#xA;&gt; οὕνεκα*); it looks very much as if the audience's sympathies are to be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; engaged on Epialtes' side right from the start.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And we know virtually nothing else about this theatre-piece, which I have otherwise seen generally entitled *Ephialtes* (rather than *Epialtes*).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To your Question regarding &quot;all of the details,&quot; the most pertinent resource after Roscher's *Ephialtes* is the 2018 book published by Brill (Leiden &amp; Boston), ed. Chiara Thumiger &amp; P.N. Singer, *Mental Illness in Ancient Medicine: From Celsus to Paul of Aegina*. For our purposes, the book's second chapter, by **Nadine Metzger**, entitled '**&quot;Not a *Daimōn*, but a Severe Illness&quot;**: Oribasius, Posidonius and Later Ancient Perspectives on Superhuman Agents Causing Disease,' is the one most applicable. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Central to your query is the second half of the chapter (pp. 94-106), which Metzger entitles &quot;[**The Case of Ephialtes in Fourth-Century Medicine**](https://books.google.com/books?id=yntTDwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA94#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false)&quot;, and wherein (pp. 94-95) she writes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Connections are made in all the sources between Ephialtes and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *epilēpsia*, and their respective attacks are considered comparable with one another—one while awake, one during sleep. Accordingly, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; late antique compilers place their comparatively short chapters on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ephialtes directly before the much more important *epilēpsia*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; categorising both as a sickness of the head. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Chapters on Ephialtes can be found in the medical compilations of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Oribasius (*Synopsis*), Aëtius of Amida, Paul of Aegina and Paulus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Nicaeus...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Paulus Nicaeus writes that many people believe Ephialtes to be a god&#xD;&#xA;&gt; or *daimōn* whch attacks sufferers at night.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is then pointed out that these writers' opinions differ regarding the origin of this Ephialtes, whereupon **Aëtius 6.12** is cited as quoting **Posidonius** (pp. 95-96):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The so-called Ephialtes is no *daimōn*, but rather a sickness and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; premonitory symptom of *epilēpsia*, *mania* and *apoplēxia*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A Message of Healing from Asklepios&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to **Oribasius' *Synopsis* 8.2** (on p. 96 of *Mental Illness in Ancient Medicine*):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The so-called Ephialtes is no evil *daimōn*, but rather on the one&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hand a serious illness, and on the other hand a heavenly interpreter&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and servant of Asclepius.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Metzger continues on pp. 100-101:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This &quot;emissary of Asclepius&quot; refers to the healing practice of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; incubation, in which a cure is granted or therapeutic measures&#xD;&#xA;&gt; revealed to the suffering patient through a dream vision in a shrine&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to Asclepius. A dream vision could also provide insight into one's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; health independently of an incubation; numerous examples of such&#xD;&#xA;&gt; prognostic dreams can be found in Artemidorus' work on dream&#xD;&#xA;&gt; interpretation, written in the second half of the second century CE. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; As a matter of fact, Artemidorus specifically discusses Ephialtes in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his dream book. The passage places central importance on the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; characteristic which defines Ephialtes in the medical sources, namely&#xD;&#xA;&gt; nightmare oppression. Other than that Ephialtes is able to speak with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dreamers, give something to them, or engage them in sexual&#xD;&#xA;&gt; intercourse. He can make prophecies and, most importantly, give the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sick a positive prognosis...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;R.J. White's translation of **Artemidorus' *Oneirocritica**: Interpretation of Dreams* **2.37** is then quoted:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Regardless of what he does when he approaches, it signifies that the sick&#xD;&#xA;&gt; will recover. For he never associates with a man who is going to die.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding this, Metzger says (p. 101) that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Similarly to Artemidorus, Oribasius' text contains the possibility of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ephialtes having a medical-prognostic function too; his mentioning of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Asclepius as a healing god, who usually appears to sick people in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dreams to provide them with insight into their condition, implies that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his &quot;mediator&quot; Ephialtes fulfils the same function. Apparently,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Oribasius not only displays an open-minded attitude towards the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; possibility of heavenly influence on the human body, but recognises&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the healing powers of Asclepius transmitted through his emissaries...&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover on p. 102:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;By Oribasius' time, the idea of a daimonic mediator operating between&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Asclepius and the human patient has unfolded in Neoplatonic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; philosophy. Primarily this cosmology tends to place higher deities&#xD;&#xA;&gt; such as Asclepius far into transcendency and excludes them from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; interacting with mortal materiality, generally considered to be in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; opposition to the heavenly sphere. To maintain this higher deity's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; influence on the world, a messenger—a daimonic intermediary—which&#xD;&#xA;&gt; makes contact with the human must be assumed. This allows the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; philosophically important distance between man and god to be upheld&#xD;&#xA;&gt; over the course of this contact. The idea can already be found in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Plato's *Symposium*, in which Eros is described as intermediary&#xD;&#xA;&gt; between the gods and humans (*ἑρμηνεῦον καὶ διαπορθμεῦον*). *Daimones*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; are made of more material matter (*ὕλη*) than the gods, which allows&#xD;&#xA;&gt; them to interact with the material world in a way in which the gods cannot.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This concept becomes elaborately fleshed out in Neoplatonic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; demonology.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus Henk Versnel elaborates in his book *Coping with the Gods: Wayward Readings in Greek Theology* (Brill, 2011:404) that Artemidorus in this sense enumerates Ephialtes together with Hekate and Pan as &quot;the *epigegoi* (terrestrial) and *aisthetoi* gods (who can be perceived with the senses as opposed to those through intellect only: *noetoi*).&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Prescriptions Against Bad Dreams&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jovan Bilbija contributes the 10th chapter, entitled &quot;The Stuff of Dreams: Substances and Dreams in Greek and Latin Literature&quot; (pp. 217-251) to the 2013 Routledge book *Dreams, Healing, and Medicine in Greece: From Antiquity to the Present* (ed. Steven Oberhelman).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to p. 223 thereof: &quot;In medical literature, substances for preventing bad dreams are generally medicines against ἐφιάλτης/*incubus*.&quot; Bilbija then summarises the basic variations of purgatives to be ingested and talismans to be worn in order to rid oneself of this *ephialtes-incubus*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On p. 238 some ancient writers are quoted recommending *hellebore*, regarding which Bilbija says in Footnote 114:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;In our passages it is the purgative black hellebore (*Helleborus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cyclophyllus* Boiss.); cf. C. Hünemörder, *BNP*, s.v. &quot;Hellebore.&quot; The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; term ἑλλέβορος was also used for *Veratrum album* L.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Helleborus cyclophyllus][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Entry A for this plant is **Rufus of Ephesus *apud* Oribasius, *Medical Questions* 7.26.177**:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hellebore (ἑλλέβορος) can be administered as a purgative (καθαρτήριον)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to those who are throttled at night by a nightmare (ἐφιάλτης).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Footnote 115 (same page):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Elsewhere, Oribasius (*Medical Questions* 7.26.15 [p. 228, 31-p.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 229, 3 Raeder]) mentions purgation as a remedy for frightening and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; disturbing dreams (ἐνύπνια φοβερὰ καὶ ταραχώδη).&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Entry B for the same plant (on the same page) is **Oribasius, *Synopsis for Eustathius* 8.2** (p. 245, 10-12 Raeder):             &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hellebore is especially useful to those who suffer from nightmares&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (ἐφιάλτικοί). They should be given one drachma of black hellebore&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (μέλας ἑλλέβορος) mixed with three obols of scammony (σκαμμωνία) and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; some aromatics like anise, wild carrot, or parsley.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Hiera of Colocynth* is listed next, which, according to Bilbija, denotes the *Citrullus colocynthis*. He quotes Scribonius Largus (100), who, writing in Latin, recommends this for &quot;relief to those who suffer from shortness of breath, asphyxiation, and nightmare (*incubo*).&quot; The Greek quotes continue (on p. 239) with more from the same above-cited section of Oribasius' *Synopsis* as Entry B for this plant:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The hiera of colocynth (ἡ διὰ τῆς σικυωνίασ ἱερά) is very serviceable&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to those who suffer from nightmares (ἐφιάλτικοί). Patients should keep&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their diet light and avoid flatulent food.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Citrullus colocynthis][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Entry C for this plant is **Aëtius of Amida 6.12** (p. 152, 27-8 Olivieri):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When a person suffers from nightmares because of an unhealthy state of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the humors (κακοχυμία), one may purge him with the hiera of Archigenes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (ἡ ἱερά Αρχιγένουσ).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Footnote 124: &quot;Aëtius provides a recipe for this hiera of colocynth at 3.115 (p. 304, 9-16 Olivieri).&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And that covers all of the &quot;*Other references not currently quoted*&quot; on your Theoi.com Epiales page, except for the following, also listed in *Dreams, Healing, and Medicine in Greece*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Dioscorides 3.140**: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Drinking 15 black grains (κόκκοι) of peony (γλυκισίδη) with hydromel&#xD;&#xA;&gt; or wine will help those who are throttled (οἱ πνιγόμενοι) by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; nightmares (ἐφιάλται). It also helps those with stomach problems and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; it relieves women with a suffocating or painful womb.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Dioscorides, *On Simple Medicines* 1.28**: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Those who are often suffocated by nightmares (οἱ ὑπὸ τῶν ἐφιαλτῶν&#xD;&#xA;&gt; πνιγόμενοι) are healed by frequent drinks of a mixture of 15 black&#xD;&#xA;&gt; grains of peony (γλυκισίδη) with water.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Oribasius, *Synopsis for Eustathius* 8.2** (p. 245, 13-15 Raeder):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Those who suffer from nightmares (ἐφιάλτικοί) will benefit from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; frequently drinking 15 pounded grains of peony (παιωνία) with water.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Based on those, if one were to make up a single English word for the victims of Ephialtes (rather than the translation &quot;those who suffer from nightmares&quot;), it should probably be &quot;ephialtics&quot; (cf. *epileptics*).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is Francis Adams' 1844 translation of **Paul of Aegina 3.15** (with my own emphasis):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Some say that this disorder is called *ephialtes* in Greek, from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the name of a man, or from those in it fancying as if one leaped upon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; them. But Themison, in the tenth book of his Epistles, calls it&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *pnigaleon*, from a Greek word signifying suffocation. It attacks persons after a surfeit, and who are labouring under protracted&#xD;&#xA;&gt; indigestion. Persons suffering an attack experience incapability of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; motion, a torpid sensation in their sleep, a sense of suffocation, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; oppression, as if from one pressing them down, with inability to cry&#xD;&#xA;&gt; out, or they utter inarticulate sounds. **Some imagine often that they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; even hear the person who is going to press them down, that he offers&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lustful violence to them, but flies when they attempt to grasp him&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with their fingers.** The evil must be guarded against at the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; commencement; for when it continues long, and attacks every night, it&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is the forerunner of some serious disease, such as apoplexy, mania, or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; epilepsy, when the exciting cause is determined to the head; for such&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as persons affected with epilepsy are, during the day, those labouring&#xD;&#xA;&gt; under nightmare are in their sleep. We must evacuate the patient's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; general system by opening a vein and administering purgatives. Black&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hellebore is especially serviceable to such persons when given to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; amount of a drachm, if three oboli of scammony, and some of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; aromatics, such as anise, wild carrot, and Macedonian parsley, be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mixed with it. The composition called hiera, from wild gourd, is also&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of great service; it is the hiera of Ruffus. The diet should be light,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and they ought to avoid everything that is flatulent. They are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; benefited also by the fruit of peony: fifteen of the black grains of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which may be pounded with water and drunk frequently.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Adams provides some supplementary details in his Commentary on this chapter on [p. 389](https://archive.org/details/sevenbooksofpaul01pauluoft/page/389) of Vol. 1 of *The Seven Books of Paulus Ægineta*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Identification with Modern Ghouls&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The **Suda** entry &quot;Ephialtes&quot; says that he is &quot;the one called by many ***Baboutzikarios***&quot; just before a second definition: &quot;The vapour which rises into the head, caused by overeating and indigestion, is called *ephialtes* by physicians.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Evy Johanne Håland says in her book *Competing Ideologies in Greek Culture, Ancient and Modern* (Cambridge Scholars Publishing, 2019:119) that the Baboutzikarios is said to be of Slavic origin. This would then dovetail with our English night-*mare*, which as we have already observed (see the &quot;In English and German&quot; section of this Answer) above, also has a Slavic connection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Leo Allatius published a sort of cultural guidebook in 1645, which Karen Hartnup expounds upon in her own 2004 book which incorporates the title of his text into its own: *'On the Beliefs of the Greeks': Leo Allatios and Popular Orthodoxy* (Brill: Leiden &amp; Boston). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hartnup reports the following about Allatius' narration of some of the practices of his fellow Christian Greeks in the 1600s (pp. 29-30, with my own emphasis):  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;In chapter X Allatios accepts Psellos' interpretation of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *babutzikarios*, a kind of frightening goblin that is supposed to appear over the Christmas period... Even though such demons do not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; exist, people actually see the demonic beings but this is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; because of hallucinations brough about by over-indulgence in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; seasonal festivities. Allatios points out that this *exotiko* is not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; always understood this way. The Byzantine dictionary *Suidas*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; describes the *babutzikarios* in terms of *ephialtes* — a nightmare&#xD;&#xA;&gt; brought on by indigestion. However, the 'common people' continue to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; believe that those born at Christmas are every year possessed by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; devil during this week and attack people on the roads, asking 'Rope or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lead?' Those who reply 'Lead', the possessed person crushes to death;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; those who reply 'Rope', he sets free. The Greeks distract the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; possessed over the Christmas season by making them count the holes in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a sieve. This kind of *babutzikarios* is identical to the creature&#xD;&#xA;&gt; called by others '***kallikantzaros***', which is the focus of Allatios'&#xD;&#xA;&gt; next chapter...&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;*Kallikantzaroi* are also goblin-like creatures that appear&#xD;&#xA;&gt; between Christmas and the New Year. People try to ward them off by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wearing new clothes and the population of Chios believes that they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; congregate in wooded and inaccessible places, where those of unsound&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mind are also thought to originate. In order to prevent those born&#xD;&#xA;&gt; between Christmas and New Year becoming *kallikantzaroi* they burn the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; soles of their feet and remove their nails.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Endnote***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;✭ *Which comes to my attention courtesy of tblue, a fellow Mythology StackExchange user.*&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/9SkAQ.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/6y0CK.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Rlkdo.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19960" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5979" RevisionGUID="3b2a05c9-685e-44f2-9e6a-8331fc9057e2" CreationDate="2019-10-26T20:38:06.997" UserId="2682" Text="**Herakles' Opponent(s)**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have not found any ancient references to the idea that Herakles [Heracles] invented pankration [*pancratium*]. Pausanias' *Description of Greece* 5.8.4, however, does mention that during Herakles' participation in the Olympic Games, the hero is said to have &quot;won victories at wrestling and the pankration.&quot; The Roman writer Hyginus seems to be the only source for the name of who Herakles competed against in pankration, and he tells us in his *Fabulae* 273.5, that Herakles' opponent was called **Achareus**, who is otherwise completely unknown.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyginus is prone to making mistakes, which is probably why Paulys Real-Encyclopädie der classischen Altertumswissenschaft makes the point that a more famous character who was contemporaneous with Herakles might be intended in this passage, namely Aphareus. In addition to the name-similarity, Aphareus seems to be a good candidate here because of his familial connection to Pisatis, the region of Elis in which Olympia, the site of the Olympic Games, is located. Peisos [Pisus], the founder of Pisa—which was the capital city of Pisatis—was either a brother or son of Aphareus.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the giants against whom Herakles fought together with the gods is incidentally called Pankrates, the &quot;Almighty,&quot; which may or may not have anything to do with the sport of pankration.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**A Brutal *Bandito***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;About a generation before the time of Herakles and Theseus, a Phlegyan king of Elis named **Phorbas**, lived as a killer bandit haunting the road from Phokis [Phocis] to Delphi where he would attack pilgrims on their way to the oracle of Apollon [Apollo] at Delphi and force them to engage him different sporting competitions. He was always victorious against them, after which he would decapitate the losers and hang their heads in the branches of an oak-tree which he had made into his home and &quot;royal court of justice.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his *Imagines*, Philostratus the Elder says that Phorbas competed with his opponents in wrestling, foot-racing, pankration and discus-throwing. Apollon, who was Phorbas' own grandfather, killed Phorbas in a boxing match. Since Phorbas would have died either before Herakles and Theseus were born, or, at the latest, when they were babies, Philostratus does not seem to think either of these younger heroes invented pankration.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Boycotting the Isthmian Games**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pausanias mentions a few different explanations for why the people of Elis did not participate in the Isthmian Games. The most famous has it that Herakles was unable, in battle, to defeat a powerful pair of twin princes from Elis, named Eurytos [Eurytus] and Kteatos [Cteatus]. During the celebration of the Isthmian Games a sacred truce was called during which Herakles ambushed and murdered the twins. Their mother Molione, according to the *Description of Greece* 5.2.2, &quot;is said to have laid curses on her countrymen {*the people of Elis*}, should they refuse to boycott the Isthmian festival. The curses of Moli[o]ne are respected right down to the present day, and no athlete of Elis is wont to compete in the Isthmian Games.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A different account is reported in the *Description of Greece* 5.2.4, in which &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Prolaos [Prolaus], a distinguished Eleian, had two sons, **Philanthos**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Philanthus] and **Lampos** [Lampus], by his wife Lysippe. These two came&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to the Isthmian Games to compete in the boys' pankration, and one of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; them intended to wrestle. Before they entered the ring they were&#xD;&#xA;&gt; strangled or done to death in some other way by their fellow&#xD;&#xA;&gt; competitors. Hence the curses of Lysippe on the Eleians, should they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not voluntarily keep away from the Isthmian Games. But this story too&#xD;&#xA;&gt; proves on examination to be silly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Semi-Legendary Heroes**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the early 400s BC there were certain athletes who participated in the Olympic Games regarding whom claims of mythical proportions are made. **Theagenes** of Thasos, who took part in hundreds of competitions, was reputed to be a son of the god Herakles, while his opponent **Euthymos** [Euthymus] was said to be the son of the River Kaikinos [Caecinus].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding Euthymos, the *Description of Greece* 6.6.5 says that&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; though he won the prize for boxing at the seventy-fourth Olympic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; festival, [he] was not to be so successful at the next. For Theagenes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Thasos, wishing to win the prizes for boxing and for the pankration&#xD;&#xA;&gt; at the same festival, overcame Euthymus at boxing, though he had not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the strength to gain the wild olive in the pankration, because he was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; already exhausted in his fight with Euthymos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some generations after Herakles' death the Olympic Games are said to have been discontinued before being revived in the reign of Iphitos [Iphitus] of Elis. Different sporting events were gradually reintroduced into the games over the course of several Olympiads. In the *Description of Greece* 5.8.8, when the men's pankration was finally readmitted &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Lygdamis** of Syracuse overcame all who entered for the pankration.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lygdamis has his tomb near the quarries at Syracuse, and according to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Syracusans he was as big as Herakles of Thebes, though I cannot&#xD;&#xA;&gt; vouch for the statement.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**How to Rebuild a City**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many legends about Alexander the Great recounted in the tales which make up what is called the Alexander Romance. One of them refers to Alexander's destruction of Thebes after the city unsuccessfully revolted against him in 335 BC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According the Romance, the Thebans then inquired of the oracle of Delphi if they would ever be able to rebuild their home. The oracle replied that Hermes, Alkeides [Alcides] and Polydeukes [Polydeuces] would work together to cause Thebes to arise anew.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later on, Alexander attended the Isthmian Games, over which he was invited to preside. Participating at the festival was a Theban named **Kleitomakhos** [Cleitomachus] who had enrolled in the wrestling, pankration and boxing competitions. After the won all the wrestling matches, Alexander promised to crown him personally and grant him any request if he conquered in the other two sports. This he achieved and, upon coming to receive his prizes,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the herald demanded of him: &quot;Tell me your name and from what city you&#xD;&#xA;&gt; come, that I may announce you,&quot; he replied: &quot;My name is Kleitomakhos,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; but I have no city.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Presently the king addressed him: &quot;Noble young man, you are a very&#xD;&#xA;&gt; remarkable athlete. In one stadium, you have won three victories, in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wrestling, boxing, the pankration, and you have been presented by me&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with three olive crowns, yet you have no city?&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kleitomakhos answered: &quot;I had one before Alexandros [*Alexander*] was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; king, but he destroyed my fatherland.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Alexandros, knowing what he meant and what he was going to request,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; said: &quot;Let Thebes be rebuilt in honour of three gods, Hermes,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Herakles, Polydeukes, in order that this may be my free gift to you,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not your demand.&quot; So the oracle of Apollo was fulfilled...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And so Thebes was rebuilt. I presume here that Hermes is supposed to represent wrestling, while Alkeides-Herakles stands in for pankration, and Polydeukes is the patron of boxing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Description of Greece*, the historical Kleitomakhos does indeed win in all such competitions but he does so more than a hundred years after Alexander's death. &quot;At Olympia this Kleitomakhos was the first after Theagenes of Thasos to be proclaimed victor in both boxing and the pankration&quot; (Description of Greece 6.15.3). The Syriac version of the Romance calls him Antimakhos [Antimachus].           " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19962" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5981" RevisionGUID="f43b996b-bd63-4978-b36e-405cf4ece645" CreationDate="2019-10-28T14:54:00.020" UserId="6457" Text="I really want to read about Greek mythology, but I don't seem to decide which book to read.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can someone suggest me good book to start with?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19963" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5981" RevisionGUID="f43b996b-bd63-4978-b36e-405cf4ece645" CreationDate="2019-10-28T14:54:00.020" UserId="6457" Text="Advise regarding book on Greek Mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19964" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5981" RevisionGUID="f43b996b-bd63-4978-b36e-405cf4ece645" CreationDate="2019-10-28T14:54:00.020" UserId="6457" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19967" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5982" RevisionGUID="013fdad5-369d-4b16-bb28-2fa0dcfd0f6c" CreationDate="2019-10-28T18:14:22.053" UserId="2682" Text="**Four years**, according to the the introductory plot summary of Seneca's play [*Phaedra*](https://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaPhaedra.html), is the amount of time Theseus was in the Underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Mechanics Thereof**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think you've answered your own concern regarding how it is Theseus and Peirithous were able to remain alive while they were trapped in the Underworld. Considering the powers possessed by the gods and the nature of the narrative world in which these events are taking place, any number of explanations that one could imagine would probably work just fine to deal with this issue. Other suggestions might be that time does not pass in the same way in the land of the dead, or that sitting in the Chair(s) of Forgetfulness is like being frozen in cryostasis while still remaining conscious, and so on and so forth.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Theseus as Compared to Herakles**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In all the mainstream ancient accounts of their respective careers, Herakles [Heracles] is definitely older than Theseus, having established himself in his heroic roles before Theseus does. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the most problematic chronological discrepancies of Greek mythology might provide an exception to this format, in which sons of Theseus and Ariadne grow up to become Argonauts, along with Herakles. In different versions the wine-god Dionysos [Dionysus] is the father of these Argonaut children of Ariadne, but the issue remains nonetheless, since Ariadne bears Dionysos offspring only after her adventures with Theseus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That may, on the other hand, be putting too fine a point on it, since certain sons and fathers, as well as uncles and nephews, are also said to have participated together in the Argonautic expedition. One could therefore simply interpret it to mean that the voyage of the *Argo* occurred when Theseus and Herakles were both old enough have grownup children, which is perfectly plausible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The people of Troizenos [Troezen], the city of Argolis in which Theseus is supposed to have been born and raised, believed that Theseus was undoubtedly younger than Herakles rather than the other way around. According to Pausanias' *Description of Greece* 1.27.7-8, in the oldest legend of the city, Theseus had met Herakles at least by the time that he, Theseus, was seven years old. By that time, Herakles had already begun his twelve labours, which logically must be the case because the story has Herakles wearing the skin of the Nemean Lion, which he would have killed for the sake of his first labour.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;About nine years later, when Theseus was sixteen years old, he performed incredible feats of strength, starting off by lifting up a huge rock under which his father Aigeus [Aegeus] had left for him a sword and a pair of sandals to find. On his way to meet his father in Athens for the first time, instead of taking the safe route, by sea, he went the dangerous way, by land, via the Isthmos [Isthmus] of Korinthos [Corinth], which path was, at the time infested with humongous notorious bandits.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Certain ancient writers appear to have the same instinct that you do about there being a problem to solve regarding the relative levels of renown between Theseus and Herakles. Plutarch, in his *Life of Theseus* (6.4), feels the need to explain why, while Herakles is still alive, there is any need for Theseus to clear away the villains infesting the Korinthian Isthmos. At this point in time, says Plutarch, Herakles is occupied with being a slave of Queen Omphale of Lydia far away. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meanwhile the teenaged Theseus has been so inspired by the glorious deeds of Herakles that he deliberately sets out to become &quot;a second Herakles&quot;. This is the reason he takes the dangerous route to Athens. By the time he reaches his father's city, Theseus has performed six great feats of power which include killing the monstrous malefactors Periphetes the Cudgeller; Sinnis the Pine-Bender; Skiron [Sciron]; and Kerkyon [Cercyon]; as well as Polypemon the Subduer. He also killed the monster Sow of Krommyon. Those six happen to be half the number of Herakles' all-famous twelve tasks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Centuries before Plutarch, Hellanicus says that Theseus founded the Isthmian Games for Poseidon, who was said to be his real father, because Theseus wanted to imitate the Olympic Games that Herakles had inaugurated for his own father Zeus. As a matter of fact, for Hellanicus, Theseus did not even live in the same generation as Herakles, but was later, which is why, according to him, Theseus and Herakles did not, as is often said, go together to Themiskyra [Themiscyra], the land of the Amazons, but Theseus went on his own private expedition thereto.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his 1995 book *Theseus and Athens* (Oxford University Press), Henry John Walker explains (p. 54) that the rise of the stories of Theseus as a superhuman hero practically on Herakles' level was a result of political tensions between Athens and Sparta in the sixth century BC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Theseus had never been anything more than one of many Athenian heroes,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; but after 510 B.C. he became the greatest hero of Athens, and just as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Athens would one day be able to challenge Sparta, so Theseus developed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; into a worthy rival of the great Panhellenic Dorian hero, Heracles&#xD;&#xA;&gt; himself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Having said all of that, the same issue could be applied to all the other heroes who are supposed to have been contemporaneous with Herakles, although indeed none of them seems to achieve quite the same level of popularity as either Herakles or Theseus. Still, Herakles has to appear *some*where in the chronology of these myths, and at no point in this timeline does not it occur that things were so uneventful that there isn't someone somewhere credited with some doughty deed or another.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And so it goes that Herakles appears as one of the fifty Argonauts, led by Iason [Jason], and in the company of other names like Orpheus, Meleagros [Meleager], Peleus and the Dioskouroi [Dioscuri]. But just because the fame of Herakles eclipses all of *their* renown in comparison, it doesn't mean that they had absolutely none of their own or that they aren't believed to have done some incredibly amazing things themselves, often enough, together with and alongside Herakles.    " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19968" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5979" RevisionGUID="6616aebc-997d-4cb7-85d3-436891152e8c" CreationDate="2019-10-28T22:34:29.907" UserId="1317" Comment="Italics for readability " Text="**Herakles' Opponent(s)**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have not found any ancient references to the idea that Herakles [Heracles] invented pankration [*pancratium*]. Pausanias' *Description of Greece* 5.8.4, however, does mention that during Herakles' participation in the Olympic Games, the hero is said to have &quot;won victories at wrestling and the pankration.&quot; The Roman writer Hyginus seems to be the only source for the name of who Herakles competed against in pankration, and he tells us in his *Fabulae* 273.5, that Herakles' opponent was called **Achareus**, who is otherwise completely unknown.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyginus is prone to making mistakes, which is probably why Paulys _Real-Encyclopädie der classischen Altertumswissenschaft_ makes the point that a more famous character who was contemporaneous with Herakles might be intended in this passage, namely Aphareus. In addition to the name-similarity, Aphareus seems to be a good candidate here because of his familial connection to Pisatis, the region of Elis in which Olympia, the site of the Olympic Games, is located. Peisos [Pisus], the founder of Pisa—which was the capital city of Pisatis—was either a brother or son of Aphareus.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the giants against whom Herakles fought together with the gods is incidentally called Pankrates, the &quot;Almighty,&quot; which may or may not have anything to do with the sport of pankration.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**A Brutal *Bandito***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;About a generation before the time of Herakles and Theseus, a Phlegyan king of Elis named **Phorbas**, lived as a killer bandit haunting the road from Phokis [Phocis] to Delphi where he would attack pilgrims on their way to the oracle of Apollon [Apollo] at Delphi and force them to engage him different sporting competitions. He was always victorious against them, after which he would decapitate the losers and hang their heads in the branches of an oak-tree which he had made into his home and &quot;royal court of justice.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his *Imagines*, Philostratus the Elder says that Phorbas competed with his opponents in wrestling, foot-racing, pankration and discus-throwing. Apollon, who was Phorbas' own grandfather, killed Phorbas in a boxing match. Since Phorbas would have died either before Herakles and Theseus were born, or, at the latest, when they were babies, Philostratus does not seem to think either of these younger heroes invented pankration.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Boycotting the Isthmian Games**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pausanias mentions a few different explanations for why the people of Elis did not participate in the Isthmian Games. The most famous has it that Herakles was unable, in battle, to defeat a powerful pair of twin princes from Elis, named Eurytos [Eurytus] and Kteatos [Cteatus]. During the celebration of the Isthmian Games a sacred truce was called during which Herakles ambushed and murdered the twins. Their mother Molione, according to the *Description of Greece* 5.2.2, &quot;is said to have laid curses on her countrymen {*the people of Elis*}, should they refuse to boycott the Isthmian festival. The curses of Moli[o]ne are respected right down to the present day, and no athlete of Elis is wont to compete in the Isthmian Games.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A different account is reported in the *Description of Greece* 5.2.4, in which &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Prolaos [Prolaus], a distinguished Eleian, had two sons, **Philanthos**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Philanthus] and **Lampos** [Lampus], by his wife Lysippe. These two came&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to the Isthmian Games to compete in the boys' pankration, and one of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; them intended to wrestle. Before they entered the ring they were&#xD;&#xA;&gt; strangled or done to death in some other way by their fellow&#xD;&#xA;&gt; competitors. Hence the curses of Lysippe on the Eleians, should they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not voluntarily keep away from the Isthmian Games. But this story too&#xD;&#xA;&gt; proves on examination to be silly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Semi-Legendary Heroes**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the early 400s BC there were certain athletes who participated in the Olympic Games regarding whom claims of mythical proportions are made. **Theagenes** of Thasos, who took part in hundreds of competitions, was reputed to be a son of the god Herakles, while his opponent **Euthymos** [Euthymus] was said to be the son of the River Kaikinos [Caecinus].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding Euthymos, the *Description of Greece* 6.6.5 says that&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; though he won the prize for boxing at the seventy-fourth Olympic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; festival, [he] was not to be so successful at the next. For Theagenes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Thasos, wishing to win the prizes for boxing and for the pankration&#xD;&#xA;&gt; at the same festival, overcame Euthymus at boxing, though he had not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the strength to gain the wild olive in the pankration, because he was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; already exhausted in his fight with Euthymos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some generations after Herakles' death the Olympic Games are said to have been discontinued before being revived in the reign of Iphitos [Iphitus] of Elis. Different sporting events were gradually reintroduced into the games over the course of several Olympiads. In the *Description of Greece* 5.8.8, when the men's pankration was finally readmitted &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Lygdamis** of Syracuse overcame all who entered for the pankration.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lygdamis has his tomb near the quarries at Syracuse, and according to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Syracusans he was as big as Herakles of Thebes, though I cannot&#xD;&#xA;&gt; vouch for the statement.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**How to Rebuild a City**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many legends about Alexander the Great recounted in the tales which make up what is called the Alexander Romance. One of them refers to Alexander's destruction of Thebes after the city unsuccessfully revolted against him in 335 BC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According the Romance, the Thebans then inquired of the oracle of Delphi if they would ever be able to rebuild their home. The oracle replied that Hermes, Alkeides [Alcides] and Polydeukes [Polydeuces] would work together to cause Thebes to arise anew.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later on, Alexander attended the Isthmian Games, over which he was invited to preside. Participating at the festival was a Theban named **Kleitomakhos** [Cleitomachus] who had enrolled in the wrestling, pankration and boxing competitions. After the won all the wrestling matches, Alexander promised to crown him personally and grant him any request if he conquered in the other two sports. This he achieved and, upon coming to receive his prizes,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the herald demanded of him: &quot;Tell me your name and from what city you&#xD;&#xA;&gt; come, that I may announce you,&quot; he replied: &quot;My name is Kleitomakhos,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; but I have no city.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Presently the king addressed him: &quot;Noble young man, you are a very&#xD;&#xA;&gt; remarkable athlete. In one stadium, you have won three victories, in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wrestling, boxing, the pankration, and you have been presented by me&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with three olive crowns, yet you have no city?&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kleitomakhos answered: &quot;I had one before Alexandros [*Alexander*] was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; king, but he destroyed my fatherland.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Alexandros, knowing what he meant and what he was going to request,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; said: &quot;Let Thebes be rebuilt in honour of three gods, Hermes,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Herakles, Polydeukes, in order that this may be my free gift to you,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not your demand.&quot; So the oracle of Apollo was fulfilled...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And so Thebes was rebuilt. I presume here that Hermes is supposed to represent wrestling, while Alkeides-Herakles stands in for pankration, and Polydeukes is the patron of boxing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Description of Greece*, the historical Kleitomakhos does indeed win in all such competitions but he does so more than a hundred years after Alexander's death. &quot;At Olympia this Kleitomakhos was the first after Theagenes of Thasos to be proclaimed victor in both boxing and the pankration&quot; (Description of Greece 6.15.3). The Syriac version of the Romance calls him Antimakhos [Antimachus].           " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19969" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5961" RevisionGUID="4f957191-8767-4cbc-9291-dcba71ce1989" CreationDate="2019-10-29T03:10:35.787" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="In every story featuring Thanatos as a major character his primary role does in fact seem to be the transportation of the dead, via some means or another, to the Underworld, and it does so happen that each of these stories is about a singular dead or dying human. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Taking into account, as your Question does, the sheer numbers of humans who die daily, it would indeed logically require Thanatos to &quot;have super speed&quot; or otherwise be everywhere at the same time, in some way. Assuming that to be the case, it sounds to me like this would make him immensely powerful, perhaps even with limitless power, or at least very few limits to these powers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Death is a Loser**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the two best-known of these Thanatos tales are also about how easy it is to overcome this god, at least temporarily. We do not have the fine details of the first story because it comes from a now-lost play by Aeschylus, about the notoriously cunning Corinthian king Sisyphus, who angered Zeus, as a punishment for which the king of the gods sent Thanatos to put an end to him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Using some sort of trick, however, Sisyphus managed to bind Thanatos for a while, within which time humans stopped dying. The war-god Ares then came and rescued the god of death, who was then able to complete his task of killing Sisyphus. The particularity about no one dying during Thanatos' captivity suggests that the death-god is actually neither omnipresent nor nigh-omnipotent, as though he is in fact a localised phenomenon, able to attend to people in only one place at a time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second story takes place a few generations later and also comes from a play, namely *Alcestis*, by Euripides. In it, Thanatos arrives on the scene to take Queen Alcestis of Pherae away to the Underworld, but in a wrestling-match, which happens off-stage and doesn't seem like much of a competition for the victor, the great hero Heracles [Hercules] beats the god of death and snatches Alcestis from him to take her back to her husband Admetus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A conversation which passes between Apollo and Thanatos makes it fairly certain that the god of death is conceived of here as bearing off the dead one by one to their eventual home under the earth. One might say it is surprising how easily Thanatos is vanquished here, but to be fair Heracles is at least as strong as his father Zeus, and holds his own in battle quite well against huge monsters, giants, and certain other gods who are nearly as powerful as his father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Who is Providing Transport?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The role of the god Hermes Chthonius, &quot;Hermes of the Underworld,&quot; appears to duplicate Thanatos' apparent function as the bearer of the dead to the nether realm. Hermes is rather distinctively known to be the Psychopompus, &quot;Guide of Souls,&quot; of Greek mythology, envisioned as leading a train of dead humans to the rivers of the Underworld where he hands them over the boatman Charon to ferry them from there to the palace of Hades, the ruler of the Underworld, for judgement as to their future accommodations. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The stories of Sisyphus and Alcestis, however, make it sound rather like it is actually Thanatos who is the Psychopompus. Other mythography ascribes this position to other entities. From Hesiod's *Shield of Heracles*, for instance, we learn about how Thanatos existed as, essentially, multiple female versions of himself called the Keres. In the *Theogony*, also by Hesiod, both the Keres and Thanatos are the fatherless offspring of Nyx, the primaeval goddess of night. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Theoi.com interprets the difference between Thanatos and his sisters as the former being the personification of non-violent death while the Keres represent violent death. In Homer's *Odyssey* 14.207 Keres are described explicitly as carrying someone away &quot;down to the house of Hades&quot;, suggesting to us further that Thanatos and Hermes are not the only couriers of the dead, unless we take these different references to be simply conflicting and contradictory ideas about the transportation system for the deceased.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Blood-Stained Visage of Mortality**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Roman authors Seneca and Statius describe Mors, the Roman version of Thanatos, quite vividly as more of an all-powerful force of nature, calling him gory and insatiable, hovering over battlefields with his mouth wide open in order to gobble up the dead and then vomit them back out upon reaching the Underworld with them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Seneca's *Hercules Furens*, Mors appears to be of immense size, &quot;pale-faced with greedy teeth,&quot; while in the same author's *Oedipus*, it seems as if mortals cannot die fast enough for him to devour and crowd them in front of Charon before he hungrily rushes back to the upper world to fill himself up some more humans. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Statius' *Thebaid* he is even the one who cuts through the threads of life which are spun by the goddesses of fate for each human being, and once the dead are standing before Hades, the death-god enthusiastically tallies up the deceased for the Underworld king. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These depictions very much seem to envision a gigantic being who moves with blinding rapidity, all of which make it difficult to reconcile him with the somewhat comically pathetic character in Aeschylus and Euripides. Either it just does not make sense to have Thanatos take up time he does not have calling upon the dying one by one, whereby we have contradictory material to work with, or we could say that Thanatos is not in fact the sole guide of the dead to the house of Hades, since we do also encounter other deities performing this task.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Facing the difficulty of how Thanatos is able to fulfill the role assigned to him in the lost Sisyphus play and in *Alcestis*, we at least have the words of Odysseus to fall back onto: &quot;it is hard for mortal men... but with the gods all things are possible&quot; (*Odyssey* 10.306), for whatever that is worth.     " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19970" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5979" RevisionGUID="c0fcefc6-093d-4b25-803c-e9957d98d645" CreationDate="2019-10-29T03:37:31.700" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; tweaked some details" Text="**Herakles' Opponent(s)**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have not found any ancient references to the idea that Herakles [Heracles] invented pankration [*pancratium*]. Pausanias' *Description of Greece* 5.8.4, however, does mention that during Herakles' participation in the Olympic Games, the hero is said to have &quot;won victories at wrestling and the pankration.&quot; The Roman writer Hyginus seems to be the only source for the name of who Herakles competed against in pankration, and he tells us in his *Fabulae* 273.5, that Herakles' opponent was called **Achareus**, who is otherwise completely unknown.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyginus is prone to making mistakes, which is probably why Paulys _Real-Encyclopädie der classischen Altertumswissenschaft_ makes the point that a more famous character who was contemporaneous with Herakles might be intended in this passage, namely Aphareus. In addition to the name-similarity, Aphareus seems to be a good candidate here because of his familial connection to Pisatis, the region of Elis in which Olympia, the site of the Olympic Games, was located. Peisos [Pisus], the founder of Pisa—which was the capital city of Pisatis—was either a brother or a son of Aphareus.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the giants against whom Herakles fought together with the gods is incidentally called Pankrates, the &quot;Almighty,&quot; which may or may not have anything to do with the sport of pankration.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**A Brutal *Bandito***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;About a generation before the time of Herakles and Theseus, a Phlegyan king of Elis named **Phorbas**, lived as a killer bandit haunting the road from Phokis [Phocis] to Delphi where he would attack pilgrims on their way to the oracle of Apollon [Apollo] at Delphi and force them to engage him different sporting competitions. He was always victorious against them, after which he would decapitate the losers and hang their heads in the branches of an oak-tree which he had made into his home and &quot;royal court of justice.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his *Imagines*, Philostratus the Elder says that Phorbas competed with his opponents in wrestling, foot-racing, pankration and discus-throwing. Apollon, who was Phorbas' own grandfather, killed Phorbas in a boxing match. Since Phorbas would have died either before Herakles and Theseus were born, or, at the latest, when they were babies, Philostratus does not seem to think either of these younger heroes invented pankration.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Boycotting the Isthmian Games**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pausanias mentions a few different explanations for why the people of Elis did not participate in the Isthmian Games. The most famous has it that Herakles was unable, in battle, to defeat a powerful pair of twin princes from Elis, named Eurytos [Eurytus] and Kteatos [Cteatus]. During the celebration of the Isthmian Games a sacred truce was called during which Herakles ambushed and murdered the twins. Their mother Molione, according to the *Description of Greece* 5.2.2, &quot;is said to have laid curses on her countrymen {*the people of Elis*}, should they refuse to boycott the Isthmian festival. The curses of Moli[o]ne are respected right down to the present day, and no athlete of Elis is wont to compete in the Isthmian Games.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A different account is reported in the *Description of Greece* 5.2.4, in which &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Prolaos [Prolaus], a distinguished Eleian, had two sons, **Philanthos**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Philanthus] and **Lampos** [Lampus], by his wife Lysippe. These two came&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to the Isthmian Games to compete in the boys' pankration, and one of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; them intended to wrestle. Before they entered the ring they were&#xD;&#xA;&gt; strangled or done to death in some other way by their fellow&#xD;&#xA;&gt; competitors. Hence the curses of Lysippe on the Eleians, should they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not voluntarily keep away from the Isthmian Games. But this story too&#xD;&#xA;&gt; proves on examination to be silly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Semi-Legendary Heroes**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the early 400s BC there were certain athletes who participated in the Olympic Games regarding whom claims of mythical proportions are made. **Theagenes** of Thasos, who took part in hundreds of competitions, was reputed to be a son of the god Herakles, while his opponent **Euthymos** [Euthymus] was said to be the son of the River Kaikinos [Caecinus].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding Euthymos, the *Description of Greece* 6.6.5 says that&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; though he won the prize for boxing at the seventy-fourth Olympic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; festival, [he] was not to be so successful at the next. For Theagenes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Thasos, wishing to win the prizes for boxing and for the pankration&#xD;&#xA;&gt; at the same festival, overcame Euthymus at boxing, though he had not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the strength to gain the wild olive in the pankration, because he was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; already exhausted in his fight with Euthymos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;About six generations after Herakles' death the Olympic Games were discontinued before being revived later on in the reign of Iphitos [Iphitus] of Elis. Different sporting events were gradually reintroduced into the games over the course of several Olympiads. In the *Description of Greece* 5.8.8, when the men's pankration was finally readmitted &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Lygdamis** of Syracuse overcame all who entered for the pankration.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lygdamis has his tomb near the quarries at Syracuse, and according to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Syracusans he was as big as Herakles of Thebes, though I cannot&#xD;&#xA;&gt; vouch for the statement.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**How to Rebuild a City**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many legends about Alexander the Great recounted in the tales which make up what is called the Alexander Romance. One of them refers to Alexander's destruction of Thebes after the city unsuccessfully revolted against him in 335 BC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the Romance, the Thebans then inquired of the oracle of Delphi if they would ever be able to rebuild their home. The oracle replied that Hermes, Alkeides [Alcides] and Polydeukes [Polydeuces] would work together to cause Thebes to arise anew.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later on, Alexander attended the Isthmian Games, over which he was invited to preside. Participating at the festival was a Theban named **Kleitomakhos** [Cleitomachus] who had enrolled in the wrestling, pankration and boxing competitions. After he won all the wrestling matches, Alexander promised to crown him personally and grant him any request if he conquered in the other two sports as well. The athlete achieved this and, upon coming to receive his prizes,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the herald demanded of him: &quot;Tell me your name and from what city you&#xD;&#xA;&gt; come, that I may announce you,&quot; he replied: &quot;My name is Kleitomakhos,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; but I have no city.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Presently the king addressed him: &quot;Noble young man, you are a very&#xD;&#xA;&gt; remarkable athlete. In one stadium, you have won three victories, in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wrestling, boxing, the pankration, and you have been presented by me&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with three olive crowns, yet you have no city?&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kleitomakhos answered: &quot;I had one before Alexandros [*Alexander*] was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; king, but he destroyed my fatherland.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Alexandros, knowing what he meant and what he was going to request,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; said: &quot;Let Thebes be rebuilt in honour of three gods, Hermes,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Herakles, Polydeukes, in order that this may be my free gift to you,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not your demand.&quot; So the oracle of Apollo was fulfilled...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And thus was Thebes rebuilt. I presume here that Hermes is supposed to represent wrestling, while Alkeides-Herakles stands in for pankration, and Polydeukes is the patron of boxing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Pausanias's account, the historical Kleitomakhos does indeed win in all such competitions but he does so more than a hundred years after Alexander's death. &quot;At Olympia this Kleitomakhos was the first after Theagenes of Thasos to be proclaimed victor in both boxing and the pankration&quot; (*Description of Greece* 6.15.3). The Syriac version of the Romance calls him Antimakhos [Antimachus].           " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19971" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5982" RevisionGUID="71e93372-c6b5-4032-b8cd-e7b8e67b1782" CreationDate="2019-10-29T04:27:33.510" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; added info" Text="**Four years**, according to the the introductory plot summary of Seneca's play [*Phaedra*](https://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaPhaedra.html), is the amount of time Theseus was in the Underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Mechanics Thereof**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think you've answered your own concern regarding how it is Theseus and Peirithous were able to remain alive while they were trapped in the Underworld. Considering the powers possessed by the gods and the nature of the narrative world in which these events are taking place, any number of explanations that one could imagine would probably work just fine to deal with this issue. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other suggestions might be that time does not pass in the same way in the land of the dead, or that sitting in the Chair(s) of Forgetfulness is like being frozen in cryostasis while still remaining conscious, and so on and so forth. One might not even need to posit necessarily supernatural means by which these unfortunate men were kept alive. People in the upper world throughout history and even at present day are imprisoned, with their lives deliberately sustained, in far more extreme-sounding situations than this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is, however, at least one ancient version of this story which is intentionally designed to make it more plausible to those who do not buy into the supernaturalistic descriptions of Hades' realm. Plutarch's *Life of Theseus* provides a completely euhemerised version of the story, in which (Ch. 31) Theseus and Peirithous never go to the Underworld but rather, after abducting Helen from Sparta, go to Epeiros [Epirus], where there is a king of the Molossians called Aidoneus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This man called his wife Phersephone, his daughter Kora, and his dog&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kerberos, with which beast he ordered that all suitors of his daughter&#xD;&#xA;&gt; should fight, promising her to him that should overcome it. However,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; when he learned that Peirithous and his friend were come not to woo,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; but to steal away his daughter, he seized them both. Peirithous he put&#xD;&#xA;&gt; out of the way at once by means of the dog, but Theseus he kept in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; close confinement.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *The Life of Theseus* 35, Herakles is a guest of Aidoneus the Molossian, whereupon the hero hears of Peirithous' death at the mercy of the king's dog, which he can do nothing about, but, after interceding on Theseus' behalf, his captor agrees to release the Athenian.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As is probably obvious here, Aidoneus is supposed to be Haides [Hades], while the names of his wife Phersephone and daughter Kora are both references to different forms of the name of Haides' niece and wife Persephone. Even in this, the methods that the human Aidoneus and the divine Haides might have employed to both imprison and sustain Theseus need not have been terribly different at all from each other.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Theseus as Compared to Herakles**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In all the mainstream ancient accounts of their respective careers, Herakles [Heracles] is definitely older than Theseus, having established himself in his heroic roles before Theseus does. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the most problematic chronological discrepancies of Greek mythology might provide an exception to this format, in which grandchildren of Theseus and Ariadne are already full-grown when both Herakles and Theseus himself are supposed to be in the midst of the peak of their adventures. In different versions the wine-god Dionysos [Dionysus] rather than Theseus is the grandfather of these offspring of Ariadne, but the issue remains nonetheless, since Ariadne would only have had children after her encounters with the young Theseus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *The Life of Theseus* 20, the people of the island of Naxos have a solution for this by saying that there were actually two different Cretan kings called Minos, each having a daughter named Ariadne. The older Ariadne was the wife of Dionysos, whose grownup grandchildren thus could reasonably have been contemporaries of Theseus and Herakles, while the younger Ariadne was Theseus' paramour. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The people of Troizenos [Troezen], the city of Argolis in which Theseus is supposed to have been born and raised, believed that Theseus was undoubtedly younger than Herakles rather than the other way around. According to Pausanias' *Description of Greece* 1.27.7-8, in the oldest legend of the city, Theseus had met Herakles at least by the time that he, Theseus, was seven years old. By that time, Herakles had already begun his twelve labours, which logically must be the case because the story has Herakles wearing the skin of the Nemean Lion, which he would have killed for the sake of his first labour.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;About nine years later, when Theseus was sixteen years old, he performed incredible feats of strength, starting off by lifting up a huge rock under which his father Aigeus [Aegeus] had left for him a sword and a pair of sandals to find. On his way to meet his father in Athens for the first time, instead of taking the safe route, by sea, he went the dangerous way, by land, via the Isthmos [Isthmus] of Korinthos [Corinth], which path was, at the time infested with humongous notorious bandits.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Once again Plutarch shares your instinct about there being a problem to solve regarding the relative levels of renown between Theseus and Herakles. Plutarch feels the need to explain why, while Herakles is still alive, there is any need for Theseus to clear away the villains infesting the Korinthian Isthmos. At this point in time, in *The Life of Theseus* 6, Herakles is occupied with being a slave of Queen Omphale of Lydia far away. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meanwhile the teenaged Theseus has been so inspired by the glorious deeds of Herakles that he deliberately sets out to become &quot;a second Herakles&quot;. This is the reason he takes the dangerous route to Athens. By the time he reaches his father's city, Theseus has performed six great feats of power which include killing the monstrous malefactors Periphetes the Cudgeller; Sinnis the Pine-Bender; Skiron [Sciron]; and Kerkyon [Cercyon]; as well as Polypemon the Subduer. He also killed the monster Sow of Krommyon. Those six happen to be half the number of Herakles' all-famous twelve tasks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Writing centuries before Plutarch, Hellanicus says that Theseus founded the Isthmian Games for Poseidon, who was said to be his real father, because Theseus wanted to imitate the Olympic Games that Herakles had inaugurated for *his* own father Zeus. As a matter of fact, for Hellanicus, Theseus did not even live in the same generation as Herakles, but was later, which is why, according to him, Theseus and Herakles did not, as is often said, go together to Themiskyra [Themiscyra], the land of the Amazons, but Theseus went on his own private expedition thereto.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his 1995 book *Theseus and Athens* (Oxford University Press), Henry John Walker explains (p. 54) that the rise of the stories of Theseus as a superhuman hero practically on Herakles' level was a result of political tensions between Athens and Sparta in the sixth century BC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Theseus had never been anything more than one of many Athenian heroes,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; but after 510 B.C. he became the greatest hero of Athens, and just as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Athens would one day be able to challenge Sparta, so Theseus developed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; into a worthy rival of the great Panhellenic Dorian hero, Heracles&#xD;&#xA;&gt; himself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Having said all of that, the same issue could be applied to all the other heroes who are supposed to have been contemporaneous with Herakles, although indeed none of them seems to achieve quite the same level of popularity as either Herakles or Theseus. Still, Herakles has to appear *some*where in the chronology of these myths, and at no point in the mythical timeline are things so uneventful that there isn't someone somewhere being credited with some doughty deed or another.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And so it goes that Herakles appears as one of the fifty Argonauts, led by Iason [Jason], and in the company of other names like Orpheus, Meleagros [Meleager], Peleus and the Dioskouroi [Dioscuri]. But just because the fame of Herakles eclipses all of *their* renown in comparison, it doesn't mean that they had absolutely none of their own or that they aren't believed to have done some incredibly amazing things themselves, often enough, together with and alongside Herakles.    " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19972" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5580" RevisionGUID="6d8e36eb-8f2d-4b90-be48-f367a535aab4" CreationDate="2019-10-29T11:35:56.377" UserId="1317" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="OK, so there are a couple of misconceptions here. First, as Codosaur has already pointed out, [Cronus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus) and [Chronos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronos) aren't necessarily the same being -- they just have similar names.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the other hand, Cronus and Chronos were confused with each other even in antiquity. In fact the Roman god [Saturn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_(mythology)), who the Romans associated with the Greek god Cronus, was sometimes regarded as a god of Time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This gives us a reason to address the more fundamental misconception -- even if we're allowed to conflate the Titan Cronus with the personnification of Time, this doesn't grant him some sort of &quot;superpower&quot; to turn back time.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt; _Tempus edax rerum, tuque, invidiosa vetustas, omnia destruitis vitiataque dentibus aevi paulatim lenta consumitis omnia morte!_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt; _(O Time, devourer of all things, and envious Age, together you destroy all that exists and, slowly gnawing, bring on lingering death.)_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Ovid, _Metamorphoses_, 15, Tr. Brookes Moore, availableat the [Theoi Project](https://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses15.html))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ancient Greeks and Romans didn't think of time as something that could be reversed -- this is in line with the [fatalism](https://www.britannica.com/topic/fatalism) that expresses itself time after time in their mythology. You couldn't cheat fate by going back in time and changing things. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Instead, Time was regarded as a force that devours everything and wears it away to nothing. This may have been something Goya had in mind when  he painted his famous painting of Saturn:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Francisco Goya, Saturn Devouring his Son](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Francisco_de_Goya%2C_Saturno_devorando_a_su_hijo_%281819-1823%29.jpg)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Source: Wikimedia Commons)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, we can answer why Zeus won. The most facile reason is that he was fated to do so, because Fate already ruled the gods. More to the point, Zeus had some powerful allies. His mother Rhea, whose strategies had kept Zeus from being swallowed alog with his brothers and sisters. He had his brothers and sisters, whom Cronus had vomited up after Zeus gave him the drink Rhea concocted  for the purpose. The Cyclopes and a couple of titans such as Prometheus allied with Zeus. Most important were the [Hekatonchires](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecatoncheires) or &quot;Hundred-handed ones&quot; imprisoned by Cronus's father Ouranos: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;But when first their father was vexed in his heart with Briareus and Cottus and Gyes, he bound them in cruel bonds, because he was jealous of their exceeding manhood and comeliness and great size: and he made them live beneath the wide-pathed earth, where they were afflicted, being set to dwell under the ground, at the end of the earth, at its great borders, in bitter anguish for a long time and with great grief at heart. But the son of Cronos and the other deathless gods whom rich-haired Rhea bare from union with Cronos, brought them up again to the light at Earth's advising. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;And blameless Cottus answered him again: `Divine one, you speak that which we know well: nay, even of ourselves we know that your wisdom and understanding is exceeding, and that you became a defender of the deathless ones from chill doom. And through your devising we are come back again from the murky gloom and from our merciless bonds, enjoying what we looked not for, O lord, son of Cronos. And so now with fixed purpose and deliberate counsel we will aid your power in dreadful strife and will fight against the Titans in hard battle.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And amongst the foremost Cottus and Briareos and Gyes insatiate for war raised fierce fighting: three hundred rocks, one upon another, they launched from their strong hands and overshadowed the Titans with their missiles, and buried them beneath the wide-pathed earth, and bound them in bitter chains when they had conquered them by their strength for all their great spirit, as far beneath the earth to Tartarus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(The Theogony of Hesiod. tr. Hugh G. Evelyn-White, lines 617 ff.), at http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19975" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5984" RevisionGUID="482db1d1-0ee0-4699-b19d-0b6c214089a8" CreationDate="2019-10-30T17:22:43.287" UserId="5726" Text="Pontus was an ancient, pre-Olympian sea-god and one of the Greek primordial deities. Pontus was Gaia's son and has no father and according to Hesiod(1), he was born without coupling, though according to Hyginus(2), Pontus is the son of Aether and Gaia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However I cannot seem to find any reference what happened to Pontus after the Olympians took over as the predominant rulers of the cosmos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hesiod**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (1) She [Gaia] bore also the fruitless deep with his raging swell, Pontus,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; without sweet union of love. — &lt;sub&gt;[Hesiod, Theogony (130)][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;**Hyginus**&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; (2) From Aether and Earth [i.e. Gaia]: Grief, Deceit, Wrath, Lamentation,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Falsehood, Oath, Vengeance, Intemperance, Altercation, Forgetfulness,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sloth, Fear, Pride, Incest, Combat, Ocean, Themis, Tartarus, **Pontus**;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and the Titans, Briareus, Gyges, Steropes, Atlas, Hyperion, and Polus,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Saturn, Ops, Moneta, Dione; and three Furies – namely, Alecto,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Megaera, Tisiphone &lt;sub&gt;[Hyginus, Fabulea][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any literature on Pontus' fate and if so what was his ultimate fate? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I understand that it is plausible that not much more is known as is the case with more named deities who came before the Olympians. He might just have been replaced by another sea deity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Pontos.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://topostext.org/work/206#Preface" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19976" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5984" RevisionGUID="482db1d1-0ee0-4699-b19d-0b6c214089a8" CreationDate="2019-10-30T17:22:43.287" UserId="5726" Text="What happened to Pontus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19977" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5984" RevisionGUID="482db1d1-0ee0-4699-b19d-0b6c214089a8" CreationDate="2019-10-30T17:22:43.287" UserId="5726" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19979" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5945" RevisionGUID="c696b7b8-d7ac-4ea0-9bdb-67b050aea936" CreationDate="2019-10-31T05:01:00.267" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="19981" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5985" RevisionGUID="395124d1-b926-4313-940a-2ef6d68a669b" CreationDate="2019-10-31T18:23:14.823" UserId="6464" Text="I was recently reading Martin Luther's commentary on the Sermon on the Mount (English translation by Charles A. Hay, 1892) and I was intrigued by a reference to &quot;the legend of the Knight Tondalo&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is what Luther wrote, when discussing the strait gate and narrow way (Matthew 7:13,14), and specifically Luther's concept of battling against the devil, the world and one's own flesh:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The ancients have admirably depicted this in the legend of the Knight Tondalo (except that they did not rightly apply it, and interpreted it of purgatory or the punishment of souls after this life,) how he had to pass over a small bridge that was scarcely as broad as a hand, with a burden on his back, and under him a sulphurous pool full of dragons, and besides there was one coming towards him to whom he had to give place.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(The full text of this book, matching my print version, is online here: https://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2005/10/commentary-on-sermon-on-mount.html) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some basic web searches for &quot;Tondalo&quot;, &quot;pool of dragons and sulfur&quot; and similar terms do not turn up anything relevant. I'm thinking perhaps the form of the name Luther used is different from the modern one. It also would not be unusual if he had some of the details wrong or adapted them for his purposes in explaining the Bible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't know which &quot;ancients&quot; he is referring to, either, although it seems most likely to me that this would be a Greek or Roman hero figure, rather than an actual &quot;knight&quot;. Or maybe the story comes from an old Germanic legend or some other tradition, instead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would like to find out:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- What is the underlying myth or legend Luther is referencing?&#xD;&#xA;- Where can I find a more complete version than this short reference?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19982" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5985" RevisionGUID="395124d1-b926-4313-940a-2ef6d68a669b" CreationDate="2019-10-31T18:23:14.823" UserId="6464" Text="What is the legend of the Knight Tondalo?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19983" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5985" RevisionGUID="395124d1-b926-4313-940a-2ef6d68a669b" CreationDate="2019-10-31T18:23:14.823" UserId="6464" Text="|myth-identification|christianity|reference-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19984" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5986" RevisionGUID="b50a35fc-d3b5-4a29-94ec-a7fd07295a41" CreationDate="2019-10-31T19:46:44.590" UserId="2682" Text="Nothing happened to him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He was not replaced by another sea deity because he *was* the Sea itself: the Mediterranean and Black Seas in particular were supposed to be his body, in the same way that the Earth was the body of the goddess Gaia, the Sky was the body of Ouranos [Uranus], and the Underworld Abyss was the body of Tartaros [Tartarus].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When the Olympians took over the rule of the cosmos, Pontos [Pontus] being simply a part of the structure of that cosmos, continued to exist therein, similarly to how Aither [Aether] was a portion of the upper region of said structure and Erebos [Erebus] was part of the lower segment thereof.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The more prominent sea deities, along with all other sea life, dwelt within the body of Pontos, just as all land creatures lived on Gaia's surface, while certain Underworld inhabitants, including the vanquished Titans, were housed within the body of Tartaros.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pontos is very similar to certain of his fellow primordial deities, Erebos and Tartaros especially, in that his only functions in the mythology are to serve as an essentially inert part of the makeup of the universe, and to become the parent and ancestor of other gods who go on to become important figures in both myth and cult. Beyond these roles, like Erebos and Tartaros, Pontos is never once characterised in ancient literature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The closest to this that I have found is Aeschylus' play *Prometheus Bound*, in which the Titan Prometheus refers (89-90) to &quot;the numberless laughs of the waves of Pontos&quot; (*pontíon te kymáton anḗrithmon gélasma*). Wiktionary interprets these &quot;laughs&quot; as signifying the waves of the Sea &quot;sparkling in sunlight.&quot; In Lines 431-432 of the same play &quot;The waves of Pontos utter a cry as they fall,&quot; and &quot;the Deep [*Bythós*] laments&quot; the pain of the imprisoned Prometheus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most of the five children of Pontos as listed in Hesiod's *Theogony* and Apollodorus' *Library* are background characters on the same level as their father, essentially the elderly part of the community of marine divinities, whose only purpose in the myths is as ancestral figures. Nereus and, to a much lesser extent, Phorkys [Phorcys] are the exceptions. Otherwise the only thing that Keto [Ceto], Thaumas and Eurybia are known for is being the progenitors of monsters, gods and Titans who became way more important than they.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I haven't found any mention of there having been a cult of Pontos anywhere. He does feature in some late mosaic artwork from Roman Africa as the personification of the surface of the sea, with ships resting upon his body and such. Thalassa, a female personification of the Mediterranean Sea, was way more prominent than he, being mentioned much more often, which perhaps, from what I can tell, is because *thalassa* (and similar forms of this word) is the primary term in Ancient Greek when referring to the sea. (According to Hyginus the first fishes were the offspring of Pontos and Thalassa.)  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19985" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5982" RevisionGUID="5f359d43-0160-48ca-9c41-445f7f5addb4" CreationDate="2019-11-01T00:38:07.900" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="**Four years**, according to the introductory plot summary of Seneca's play [*Phaedra*](https://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaPhaedra.html), is the amount of time Theseus was in the Underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Mechanics Thereof**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think you've answered your own concern regarding how it is Theseus and Peirithous were able to remain alive while they were trapped in the Underworld. Considering the powers possessed by the gods and the nature of the narrative world in which these events are taking place, any number of explanations that one could imagine would probably work just fine to deal with this issue. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other suggestions might be that time does not pass in the same way in the land of the dead, or that sitting in the Chair(s) of Forgetfulness is like being frozen in cryostasis while still remaining conscious, and so on and so forth. One might not even need to posit necessarily supernatural means by which these unfortunate men were kept alive. People in the upper world throughout history and even at present day are imprisoned, with their lives deliberately sustained, in far more extreme-sounding situations than this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is, however, at least one ancient version of this story which is intentionally designed to make it more plausible to those who do not buy into the supernaturalistic descriptions of Hades' realm. Plutarch's *Life of Theseus* provides a completely euhemerised version of the story, in which (Ch. 31) Theseus and Peirithous never go to the Underworld but rather, after abducting Helen from Sparta, go to Epeiros [Epirus], where there is a king of the Molossians called Aidoneus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This man called his wife Phersephone, his daughter Kora, and his dog&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kerberos, with which beast he ordered that all suitors of his daughter&#xD;&#xA;&gt; should fight, promising her to him that should overcome it. However,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; when he learned that Peirithous and his friend were come not to woo,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; but to steal away his daughter, he seized them both. Peirithous he put&#xD;&#xA;&gt; out of the way at once by means of the dog, but Theseus he kept in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; close confinement.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *The Life of Theseus* 35, while Herakles is a guest of Aidoneus the Molossian, the hero hears of Peirithous' death at the mercy of the king's dog, which he can do nothing about, but, after interceding on Theseus' behalf, his captor agrees to release the Athenian.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As is probably obvious here, Aidoneus is supposed to be Haides [Hades], while the names of his wife Phersephone and daughter Kora are both references to different forms of the name of Haides' niece and wife Persephone. Even in this, the methods that the human Aidoneus and the divine Haides might have employed to both imprison and sustain Theseus need not have been terribly different at all from each other.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Theseus as Compared to Herakles**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In all the mainstream ancient accounts of their respective careers, Herakles [Heracles] is definitely older than Theseus, having established himself in his heroic roles before Theseus does. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the most problematic chronological discrepancies of Greek mythology might provide an exception to this format, in which grandchildren of Theseus and Ariadne are already full-grown when both Herakles and Theseus himself are supposed to be in the midst of the peak of their adventures. In different versions the wine-god Dionysos [Dionysus] rather than Theseus is the grandfather of these offspring of Ariadne, but the issue remains nonetheless, since Ariadne would first have had children only *after* her encounters with the young Theseus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *The Life of Theseus* 20, the people of the island of Naxos have a solution for this by saying that there were actually two different Cretan kings called Minos, each having a daughter named Ariadne. The older Ariadne was the wife of Dionysos, whose grownup grandchildren thus could reasonably have been contemporaries of Theseus and Herakles, while the younger Ariadne was Theseus' paramour. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The people of Troizenos [Troezen], the city of Argolis in which Theseus is supposed to have been born and raised, believed that Theseus was undoubtedly younger than Herakles rather than the other way around. According to Pausanias' *Description of Greece* 1.27.7-8, in the oldest legend of the city, Theseus had met Herakles at least by the time that he, Theseus, was seven years old. By that time, Herakles had already begun his twelve labours, which logically must be the case because the story has Herakles wearing the skin of the Nemean Lion, which he would have killed for the sake of his first labour.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;About nine years later, when Theseus was sixteen years old, he performed incredible feats of strength, starting off by lifting up a huge rock under which his father Aigeus [Aegeus] had left for him a sword and a pair of sandals to find. On his way to meet his father in Athens for the first time, instead of taking the safe route, by sea, he went the dangerous way, by land, via the Isthmos [Isthmus] of Korinthos [Corinth], which path was, at the time infested with humongous notorious bandits.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Once again Plutarch shares your instinct about there being a problem to solve regarding the relative levels of renown between Theseus and Herakles. Plutarch feels the need to explain why, while Herakles is still alive, there is any need for Theseus to clear away the villains infesting the Korinthian Isthmos. At this point in time, in *The Life of Theseus* 6, Herakles is occupied with being a slave of Queen Omphale of Lydia far away. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meanwhile the teenaged Theseus has been so inspired by the glorious deeds of Herakles that he deliberately sets out to become &quot;a second Herakles&quot;. This is the reason he takes the dangerous route to Athens. By the time he reaches his father's city, Theseus has performed six great feats of power which include killing the monstrous malefactors Periphetes the Cudgeller; Sinnis the Pine-Bender; Skiron [Sciron]; and Kerkyon [Cercyon]; as well as Polypemon the Subduer. He also killed the monster Sow of Krommyon. Those six happen to be half the number of Herakles' all-famous twelve tasks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Writing centuries before Plutarch, Hellanicus says that Theseus founded the Isthmian Games for Poseidon, who was said to be his real father, because Theseus wanted to imitate the Olympic Games that Herakles had inaugurated for *his* own father Zeus. As a matter of fact, for Hellanicus, Theseus did not even live in the same generation as Herakles, but was later, which is why, according to him, Theseus and Herakles did not, as is often said, go together to Themiskyra [Themiscyra], the land of the Amazons, but Theseus went on his own private expedition thereto.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his 1995 book *Theseus and Athens* (Oxford University Press), Henry John Walker explains (p. 54) that the rise of the stories of Theseus as a superhuman hero practically on Herakles' level was a result of political tensions between Athens and Sparta in the sixth century BC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Theseus had never been anything more than one of many Athenian heroes,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; but after 510 B.C. he became the greatest hero of Athens, and just as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Athens would one day be able to challenge Sparta, so Theseus developed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; into a worthy rival of the great Panhellenic Dorian hero, Heracles&#xD;&#xA;&gt; himself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Having said all of that, the same issue could be applied to all the other heroes who are supposed to have been contemporaneous with Herakles, although indeed none of them seems to achieve quite the same level of popularity as either Herakles or Theseus. Still, Herakles has to appear *some*where in the chronology of these myths, and at no point in the mythical timeline are things so uneventful that there isn't someone somewhere being credited with some doughty deed or another.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And so it goes that Herakles appears as one of the fifty Argonauts, led by Iason [Jason], and in the company of other names like Orpheus, Meleagros [Meleager], Peleus and the Dioskouroi [Dioscuri]. But just because the fame of Herakles eclipses all of *their* renown in comparison, it doesn't mean that they have absolutely none of their own or that they aren't believed to have done some incredibly amazing things themselves, often enough, together with and alongside Herakles.    " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19986" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5986" RevisionGUID="7648c98f-b3c8-4fc9-bd2e-e399e21a23a8" CreationDate="2019-11-01T00:59:00.283" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; added info" Text="Nothing happened to him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He was not replaced by another sea deity because he *was* the Sea itself: the Mediterranean and Black Seas in particular were supposed to be his body, in the same way that the Earth was the body of the goddess Gaia, the Sky was the body of Ouranos [Uranus], and the Underworld Abyss was the body of Tartaros [Tartarus].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When the Olympians took over the rule of the cosmos, Pontos [Pontus], being simply a part of the structure of that cosmos, continued to exist therein, similarly to how Aither [Aether] was a portion of the upper region of said structure and Erebos [Erebus] was part of the lower segment thereof.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The more prominent sea deities, along with all other marine life, dwelt within the body of Pontos, just as all land creatures lived on Gaia's surface, while certain Underworld inhabitants, including the vanquished Titans, were housed within the body of Tartaros.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pontos is very similar to certain of his fellow primordial deities, Erebos and Tartaros especially, in that his only functions in the mythology are to serve as an essentially inert part of the makeup of the universe, and to become the parent and ancestor of other gods who go on to become important figures in both myth and cult. Beyond these roles, there is only once instance of ancient literature in which Pontos is characterised at all, namely in Philostratus the Elder's *Images*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The scene occurs many thousands of years after the end of the Titans' War, during the expedition of the Argonauts, one of whom was Orpheus, whose music was so powerfully beautiful that rivers changes their courses to follow him and wild animals were temporarily tamed, herding with domestic ones in order to listen to him play. In *Images* 2.15, while the Argo is passing in between the Clashing Rocks at the Bosporus, Pontos hears Orpheus' music and is calmed &quot;under the spell of his song.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A couple of descriptions in Aeschylus' play *Prometheus Bound* come close but fall just short of actual characterisation. In Lines 89-90 of the play, the Titan Prometheus refers to &quot;the numberless laughs of the waves of Pontos&quot; (*pontíon te kymáton anḗrithmon gélasma*). Wiktionary interprets these &quot;laughs&quot; or &quot;smiles&quot; as signifying the waves of the Sea &quot;sparkling in sunlight.&quot; In Lines 431-432: &quot;The waves of Pontos utter a cry as they fall,&quot; and &quot;the Deep [*Bythós*] laments&quot; the pain of the imprisoned Prometheus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most of the five children of Pontos as listed in Hesiod's *Theogony* and Apollodorus' *Library* are background characters on the same level as their father, essentially the elderly part of the community of marine divinities, whose only purpose in the myths is to be ancestral figures. Nereus and, to a much lesser extent, Phorkys [Phorcys] are the exceptions. Otherwise the only thing that Keto [Ceto], Thaumas and Eurybia are known for is being the progenitors of monsters, gods and Titans who became way more important than they.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I haven't found any mention of there having been a cult of Pontos anywhere. He does feature in some late mosaic artwork from Roman Africa as the personification of the surface of the sea, with ships resting upon his body and such. Thalassa, a female personification of the Mediterranean Sea, was way more prominent than he, being mentioned much more often, which perhaps, from what I can tell, is because *thalassa* (and similar forms of this word) is the primary term in Ancient Greek when referring to the sea. (According to Hyginus the first fishes were the offspring of Pontos and Thalassa.)  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19987" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5987" RevisionGUID="df405d04-d66a-4cb3-b14d-211891cd7abb" CreationDate="2019-11-01T01:45:58.190" UserId="5477" Text="If you look at version of it online, it's all broken down into verses and stanzas, all numbered. But I wonder if this is how it was originally written down, or if the verses weren't ever marked." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19988" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5987" RevisionGUID="df405d04-d66a-4cb3-b14d-211891cd7abb" CreationDate="2019-11-01T01:45:58.190" UserId="5477" Text="How was the Old Norse Edda likely formatted?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19989" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5987" RevisionGUID="df405d04-d66a-4cb3-b14d-211891cd7abb" CreationDate="2019-11-01T01:45:58.190" UserId="5477" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19990" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5988" RevisionGUID="6253e229-7acc-4950-be44-b8def03cf59c" CreationDate="2019-11-01T19:05:05.823" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19991" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5988" RevisionGUID="6253e229-7acc-4950-be44-b8def03cf59c" CreationDate="2019-11-01T19:05:05.823" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19992" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5989" RevisionGUID="bbbcf5de-6a71-428d-a2df-a7554e7b8507" CreationDate="2019-11-01T19:05:05.823" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19993" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5989" RevisionGUID="bbbcf5de-6a71-428d-a2df-a7554e7b8507" CreationDate="2019-11-01T19:05:05.823" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19994" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5990" RevisionGUID="cab2c33e-9dcc-46db-87f5-ec454ed4b1b8" CreationDate="2019-11-01T19:07:37.220" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19995" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5990" RevisionGUID="cab2c33e-9dcc-46db-87f5-ec454ed4b1b8" CreationDate="2019-11-01T19:07:37.220" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19996" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5991" RevisionGUID="755643dd-a1dd-44ca-9816-515f4bcfd584" CreationDate="2019-11-01T19:07:37.220" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19997" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5991" RevisionGUID="755643dd-a1dd-44ca-9816-515f4bcfd584" CreationDate="2019-11-01T19:07:37.220" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19998" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5992" RevisionGUID="7793297a-a1bf-42b7-812a-1e72d96d51bc" CreationDate="2019-11-01T19:08:58.597" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="19999" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5992" RevisionGUID="7793297a-a1bf-42b7-812a-1e72d96d51bc" CreationDate="2019-11-01T19:08:58.597" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20000" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5993" RevisionGUID="6b91ca3c-668d-4d3e-aec4-30e24bb517c4" CreationDate="2019-11-01T19:08:58.597" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20001" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5993" RevisionGUID="6b91ca3c-668d-4d3e-aec4-30e24bb517c4" CreationDate="2019-11-01T19:08:58.597" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20003" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5944" RevisionGUID="26c2bcb9-539a-46d3-821d-d91aa1581d17" CreationDate="2019-11-01T20:59:52.163" UserId="4022" Comment="added 440 characters in body" Text="Short version: the assignment was more astrological than religious, insofar as such things can be separated out.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The oldest explanation I can find of the now-standard day names is from Cassius Dio, second century CE, though the names are referenced earlier (Tibullus, first century BCE). Dio claims the system was developed by the Egyptians, but most likely the Egyptians adopted it from the Babylonians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Dio, the cycle &quot;Saturday, Sunday, Monday&quot; etc comes from astrology. In other words, the days aren't associated with the gods directly, but with the *planets*, which are then astrologically connected to the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the classical geocentric model, there were seven planets: Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sol, Venus, Mercury, Luna. Saturn was the farthest away, while Luna was the closest. As Dio explains it, each hour was governed by one of these planets. (This is one reason historians think the model started with the Babylonians—they were the ones who divided the day into twenty-four hours.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *τὰς ὥρας τῆς ἡμέρας καὶ τῆς νυκτὸς ἀπὸ τῆς πρώτης ἀρξάμενος ἀριθμεῖν, καὶ ἐκείνην μὲν τῷ Κρόνῳ διδούς, τὴν δὲ ἔπειτα τῷ Διί, καὶ τρίτην Ἄρει, τετάρτην ἡλίῳ, πέμπτην Ἀφροδίτῃ, ἕκτην Ἑρμῇ, καὶ ἑβδόμην σελήνῃ,*  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; If you start enumerating the hours of the day and night, starting from the first one, and assign the first one to Cronus, the second to Zeus, the third to Ares, the fourth to Helios, the fifth to Aphroditë, the sixth to Hermes, and the seventh to Selenë,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *κατὰ τὴν τάξιν τῶν κύκλων καθ᾿ ἣν οἱ Αἰγύπτιοι αὐτὴν νομίζουσι, καὶ τοῦτο καὶ αὖθις ποιήσας, πάσας τε οὕτω τὰς τέσσαρας καὶ εἴκοσιν ὥρας περιελθών, εὑρήσεις τὴν πρώτην τῆς ἐπιούσης ἡμέρας ὥραν ἐς τὸν ἥλιον ἀφικνουμένην.*  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; according to the order of the cycles that were developed by the Egyptians, and if you do all this again, going through the full twenty-four hours, you'll discover that the first hour of the second day is assigned to Helios.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *καὶ τοῦτο καὶ ἐπ᾿ ἐκείνων τῶν τεσσάρων καὶ εἴκοσιν ὡρῶν κατὰ τὸν αὐτὸν τοῖς πρόσθε λόγον πράξας, τῇ σελήνῃ τὴν πρώτην τῆς τρίτης ἡμέρας ὥραν ἀναθήσεις, κἂν οὕτω καὶ διὰ τῶν λοιπῶν πορεύῃ, τὸν προσήκοντα ἑαυτῇ θεὸν ἑκάστη ἡμέρα λήψεται.*  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And if you do all that again in just the same way for the next twenty-four hours, then the first hour of the third day will be given to Selenë, and if you keep going through the remaining days, each and every day will be assigned its respective god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *ταῦτα μὲν οὕτω παραδέδοται.*  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; So, that is the traditional way of it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Dio XXXVII.19, translation mine)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That is, each hour is assigned to one of the planets, in order; since 24 ≅ 3 mod 7, each day starts three places further around the cycle. So if you assign each _day_ to a planet, based on its first hour, you get Saturn, Sol, Luna, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When different cultures adopted this system, they fit their own gods into it as best they could, but used the same assignment to planets. According to the astrologers, for instance, the planet Jupiter was associated with strength and storms (rather than e.g. kingship), so the Germanic peoples connected it with their god Thor. &quot;Tuesday&quot; was the day of Tyr (Germanic), Mars (Roman), Ares (Greek), or Nergal (Babylonian), &quot;Friday&quot; was the day of Freyja (Germanic), Venus (Roman), Aphroditë (Greek), or Ištar (Babylonian), and so on.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Edited to add: it's worth noting that, since this system was Babylonian in the first place, the Greco-Roman names we know for the planets are somewhat shoehorned in as well! For example, why is there a planet for Saturn/Cronus but not for Neptune/Poseidon? Because Saturn/Cronus was the closest match for the Sumerian agricultural deity Ninurta. Mesopotamian astrology has turned out to have some very long-lasting impacts on the world!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20004" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5994" RevisionGUID="bb4014b0-ae3c-4779-bd86-053411cb3a47" CreationDate="2019-11-01T22:54:46.590" UserId="1317" Text="The Elder or Poetic Edda is known entirely from the ***[Codex Regius](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Regius)***, a 13th-century collection of Norse poems written on 45 vellum pages.  The general form of the text is what we would today call a &quot;wall of text&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Codex Regius](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Codex_Regius_of_Eddaic_Poems.jpg)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Source: Wikimedia Commons, Public Domain asserted)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The poems' textual representation of grouped and numbered lines is done by modern scholars. However this does **not** imply that poems contain  divisions into stanzas and line marking are modern innovations, but they are naturally deduced from the inherent [alliterative verse](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliterative_verse) structure of the words themselves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Before the poems were written down, of course, they were recited from memory." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20006" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5995" RevisionGUID="0bb9a37f-68f8-413e-854d-6e2e46921e5b" CreationDate="2019-11-02T00:13:00.607" UserId="5726" Text="According to many sources Hector was the greatest warrior of Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Iliad, Hector did not approve of war between the Greeks and the Trojans, and for ten years, the Achaeans besieged Troy and their allies in the east. Hector commanded the Trojan army, with a number of subordinates including Polydamas, and his brothers Deiphobus, Helenus and Paris. By all accounts, **Hector was the best warrior the Trojans and their allies could field, and his fighting prowess was admired by Greeks and his own people alike.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since Hector was the best warrior Troy could produce he must have had more kills than &quot;just&quot; [Protesilaus][2] ,(the first to die in the war). I know he fought Ajax to a stalemate and gifted him his sword which Ajax fell upon later. He still died by Achilles' hand.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any reference as to how mighty Hector really was?, or is the fact that he was able to fight against Greece' mighty heroes proof enough?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Fagles&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protesilaus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20007" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5995" RevisionGUID="0bb9a37f-68f8-413e-854d-6e2e46921e5b" CreationDate="2019-11-02T00:13:00.607" UserId="5726" Text="Is there a referenced kill-count for Hector of Troy?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20008" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5995" RevisionGUID="0bb9a37f-68f8-413e-854d-6e2e46921e5b" CreationDate="2019-11-02T00:13:00.607" UserId="5726" Text="|greek|trojan-war|iliad|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20009" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5996" RevisionGUID="3253a26b-f4da-46b7-804d-328bbb2baac6" CreationDate="2019-11-02T05:14:30.313" UserId="2682" Text="Hector's most famous kill is **Patroclus**, the second-in-command of Achilles over the Myrmidon forces on the Greek side of the Trojan War. Because of how close Patroclus was to Achilles, to whom he was related and had known since they were young, this led inevitably to Hector's death by the hand of Achilles, who was sore with vengefulness over his friend's demise.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Wikipedia article &quot;[List of Trojan War Characters](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Trojan_War_characters#Deaths_and_outcome_of_war)&quot; has comprehensive tables listing the Greek and Trojan casualties from the war and who was responsible for each one. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Carlos Parada's website the Greek Mythology Link (GML) has two separate pages with dictionary articles listing [Achaeans](https://www.maicar.com/GML/ACHAEANS.html) named in sources about the Trojan War and the [Achaean Leaders](https://www.maicar.com/GML/ACHAEANLEADERS.html) to whom they were subordinates. On the Trojan side, Hector does indeed have the highest kill-count. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both of the aforementioned websites supply **twenty-nine** names of men killed by Hector, with Patroclus and Protesilaus of course being among them. Both websites have fairly uniformly accurate information, although more detail is available on the GML entries than on that Wikipedia page, which is just bare tables of lists. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The main primary source for these entries that you'll find at the GML is Homer's *Iliad*, with references of where in the poem the information is drawn from. Certain characters have alternate endings based on variant accounts, however, and you can find the details thereof at the GML. Otherwise, to see simply the different versions as a plain breakdown, consult the lists on Wikipedia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Protesilaus, for example, was otherwise slain by &quot;Aeneas, Euphorbas, Achates or Cycnus&quot; while **Antilochus**, if he wasn't killed by Hector, died at the hand of Memnon. If we subtract those two alternates, then Hector's kill-count is down to **twenty-seven**. The war-god Ares also helped Hector to kill Oenomaus, Oresbius, Orestes, Teuthras and Trechus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the sake of comparison, of the other Trojans you have named, Polydamas's count is five (one of whom, namely the Boeotian Prothoenor, was a leader); Deiphobus has five (including one leader, Ascalaphus); Helenus is said to have slain only one, a Pylian named Deipyrus; and Paris kills eleven men, the only leader among them being, incidentally, Achilles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Iliad* frequently makes reference to &quot;mighty Hector&quot; (e.g. in Book 10 &amp; twice in Book 14) just as Achilles' son Pyrrhus himself does in Seneca's *Troades* 322. In *Iliad* 12 Hector is &quot;the mighty deviser of rout&quot; of whom the Greeks are terrified, and who fights them furiously &quot;like a whirlwind.&quot; He is also repeatedly called &quot;godlike&quot; and &quot;the peer of Ares&quot; but none of these might be saying much as regards comparison, since so many other fighters are tagged with these epithets of &quot;mighty,&quot; &quot;godlike,&quot; and &quot;peer of Ares.&quot; Even Hector's old father king Priam is &quot;godlike&quot; in *Iliad* 24.    " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20010" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5994" RevisionGUID="21181add-bb3c-429d-ac96-66bf569b3505" CreationDate="2019-11-02T12:51:17.260" UserId="1317" Comment="deleted 37 characters in body" Text="The Elder or Poetic Edda is known entirely from the ***[Codex Regius](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Regius)***, a 13th-century collection of Norse poems written on 45 vellum pages.  The general form of the text is what we would today call a &quot;wall of text&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Codex Regius](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Codex_Regius_of_Eddaic_Poems.jpg)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Source: Wikimedia Commons, Public Domain asserted)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The poems' textual representation of grouped and numbered lines is done by modern scholars. However this does **not** imply that the poems have no structure. Their stanzas and lines are naturally deduced from the inherent [alliterative verse](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliterative_verse) structure of the words themselves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Before the poems were written down, of course, they were recited from memory." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20011" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5996" RevisionGUID="29ecccc8-4bd6-4453-93c3-d23d092e631b" CreationDate="2019-11-02T16:39:26.280" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; improved formatting" Text="Hector's most famous kill is **Patroclus**, the second-in-command of Achilles over the Myrmidon forces on the Greek side of the Trojan War. Because of how close Patroclus was to Achilles, to whom he was related and had known since they were young, this led inevitably to Hector's death by the hand of Achilles, who was sore with vengefulness over his friend's demise.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Wikipedia article &quot;[List of Trojan War Characters](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Trojan_War_characters#Deaths_and_outcome_of_war)&quot; has comprehensive tables listing the Greek and Trojan casualties from the war and who was responsible for each one. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Carlos Parada's website the Greek Mythology Link (GML) has two separate pages with dictionary articles listing [Achaeans](https://www.maicar.com/GML/ACHAEANS.html) named in ancient sources dealing with the Trojan War, and the [Achaean Leaders](https://www.maicar.com/GML/ACHAEANLEADERS.html) to whom they were subordinates. On the Trojan side, Hector does indeed have the highest kill-count. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both of the aforementioned websites supply **twenty-nine** names of men killed by Hector, with Patroclus and Protesilaus of course being among them. Both websites provide fairly uniform information, although more detail is available on the GML entries than on the Wikipedia page, the latter of which is just bare tables of lists. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The main primary source for these entries that you'll find at the GML is Homer's *Iliad*, with references of where in the poem the information is drawn from. Certain characters have alternate endings based on variant accounts, however, and you can find the details thereof at the GML. Otherwise, to see simply the different versions as a plain breakdown, consult the lists on Wikipedia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Protesilaus, for example, was otherwise slain by &quot;Aeneas, Euphorbas, Achates or Cycnus&quot; while **Antilochus**, if he wasn't killed by Hector, died at the hand of Memnon. If we subtract those two alternates, then Hector's kill-count is down to **twenty-seven**. The war-god Ares also helps Hector to kill **Oenomaus**, **Oresbius**, **Orestes**, **Teuthras** and **Trechus**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the sake of comparison with the other Trojans you have named, Polydamas's count is five (one of whom, namely the Boeotian Prothoenor, was a leader); Deiphobus has five (including one leader, Ascalaphus); Helenus is said to have slain only one man, a Pylian named Deipyrus; and Paris kills eleven soldiers, the only leader among them being, incidentally, Achilles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Iliad* frequently makes reference to &quot;mighty Hector&quot; (e.g. in Book 10, twice in Book 11, &amp; twice in Book 14) just as Achilles' son Pyrrhus himself does in Seneca's *Troades* 322. In *Iliad* 12, Hector is &quot;the mighty deviser of rout&quot; of whom the Greeks are terrified, and who fights the Achaeans furiously &quot;like a whirlwind.&quot; He is also repeatedly called &quot;godlike&quot; and the &quot;peer of Ares,&quot; although none of these might be saying much as regards comparison, since so many other fighters are tagged with these epithets of &quot;mighty,&quot; &quot;godlike,&quot; and &quot;peer of Ares.&quot; Even Hector's old father King Priam is &quot;godlike&quot; in *Iliad* 24.    " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20012" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5994" RevisionGUID="a8607ab4-b411-4499-a933-af6d73ba49c9" CreationDate="2019-11-02T23:22:08.117" UserId="1317" Comment="added 148 characters in body" Text="The Elder or Poetic Edda is known entirely from the ***[Codex Regius](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Regius)***, a 13th-century collection of Norse poems written on 45 vellum pages.  The general form of the text is what we would today call a &quot;wall of text&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Codex Regius](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Codex_Regius_of_Eddaic_Poems.jpg)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Source: Wikimedia Commons, Public Domain asserted)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Here's a website](http://www.germanicmythology.com/works/CODEXREGIUS.html) that shows pictures of the individual pages a little more closely.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The poems' textual representation of grouped and numbered lines is done by modern scholars. However this does **not** imply that the poems have no structure. Their stanzas and lines are naturally deduced from the inherent [alliterative verse](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliterative_verse) structure of the words themselves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Before the poems were written down, of course, they were recited from memory." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20013" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5997" RevisionGUID="b89cf3cb-a934-4373-b4e4-48eafda702e8" CreationDate="2019-11-03T06:57:57.630" UserId="6466" Text="I have been watching Supernatural and other shows that include demons is it possible for salty water to effect demon, Ghost etc. or is it just grain of salt?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20014" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="5997" RevisionGUID="b89cf3cb-a934-4373-b4e4-48eafda702e8" CreationDate="2019-11-03T06:57:57.630" UserId="6466" Text="Is it possible to hurt / Repel Demons and Ghosts with Really Salty Water" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20015" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="5997" RevisionGUID="b89cf3cb-a934-4373-b4e4-48eafda702e8" CreationDate="2019-11-03T06:57:57.630" UserId="6466" Text="|demons|ghosts|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20016" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="5998" RevisionGUID="fbb2b15c-12f2-4422-9d5c-2b286ef5bff6" CreationDate="2019-11-04T02:41:28.423" UserId="6467" Text="I know she escaped. there is a greek tablet that says when she hammered her essence into  athena's things, she hammered the last bit into a rock. when athena went to earth, she shattered the stone. metis bursted from it as an owl.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20017" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5998" RevisionGUID="02dec467-aadf-4def-b560-16d64cf9182e" CreationDate="2019-11-04T11:48:21.843" UserId="5726" Comment="capital letters and added OP comment to question" Text="I know she escaped. There is a Greek tablet (the tablet was marble, and it's in a museum in Crete) that says when she hammered her essence into Athena's things, she hammered the last bit into a rock. When Athena went to earth, she shattered the stone. Metis bursted from it as an owl.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20021" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6000" RevisionGUID="135aea3a-9345-428e-9f60-139b999ec833" CreationDate="2019-11-05T15:10:01.690" UserId="5511" Text="In Christian mythology, holy water is a mixture of salt and water that has been blessed by a priest. Witches, vampires, and other nasty evil creatures were considered violently allergic to holy water. In the middle ages, due to the demand, there was even a delivery service for holy water in cities, like the milkman in the 20th century." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20022" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6001" RevisionGUID="7181251c-9a63-43b5-9acf-42f5c7f100d0" CreationDate="2019-11-07T09:37:55.340" UserId="5466" Text="As I have seen lots of interest around [this answer][1], more precisely around the number of legs (as @lfurini said), I have decided to open a question to find a canonical answer (even though there is space for &quot;whatever the author wants&quot;).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the discussion (answer and comment section), one can see that the creatures are different, even though, as @jwenting pointed out:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for a long time the terms **dragon** and **wyrm** were used interchangably in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; English.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And from [this answer][2] one can find and effort to give standard definitions for them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, when it comes to specifics, more precisely the number of legs, there seems to exist lots of interpretations. Any effort in clarifying is appreciated.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://scifi.stackexchange.com/a/222675/106137&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://scifi.stackexchange.com/a/34091/106137" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20023" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6001" RevisionGUID="7181251c-9a63-43b5-9acf-42f5c7f100d0" CreationDate="2019-11-07T09:37:55.340" UserId="5466" Text="How do we distinguish a dragon, a wyrm and a wyvern in terms of the number of legs?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20024" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6001" RevisionGUID="7181251c-9a63-43b5-9acf-42f5c7f100d0" CreationDate="2019-11-07T09:37:55.340" UserId="5466" Text="|mythical-creatures|dragons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20025" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6001" RevisionGUID="b17e16aa-4bc0-445d-ba22-728a641ed22c" CreationDate="2019-11-07T09:45:50.827" UserId="5466" Comment="Corrected a typo and improved the answer." Text="As I have seen lots of interest around [this answer][1], more precisely around the number of legs (as @lfurini said), I have decided to open a question to find a canonical answer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the discussion (answer and comment section), one can see that the creatures are different, even though, as @jwenting pointed out:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for a long time the terms **dragon** and **wyrm** were used interchangably in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; English.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And from [this answer][2] one can find an effort to give standard definitions for them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, when it comes to specifics, more precisely the number of legs, there seems to exist lots of interpretations.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://scifi.stackexchange.com/a/222675/106137&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://scifi.stackexchange.com/a/34091/106137" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20030" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5204" RevisionGUID="7d8440b0-43da-4d23-a96a-0554dad47d03" CreationDate="2019-11-07T15:27:42.163" UserId="5504" Comment="Punctuation fix" Text="I remember from long ago a story about a martial artist, The Bully, who was renowned for his &quot;100-step punch&quot;:  if he lands the blow, you will die after taking 100 steps.  One day another martial artist, The Hero, gets into a fight with The Bully, and is hit by the 100-step punch.  The Hero staggers away, and The Bully believes he has won.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later, The Hero returns to defeat The Bully.  Surprised, The Bully asks, &quot;How did you survive my 100-step punch?&quot;   The Hero replies, &quot;I only took 99 steps!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If this sounds familiar to you... &#xD;&#xA;Where did this story come from, and is there a better rendition of it than my paltry summary?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20031" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6000" RevisionGUID="9d1e3173-d2d9-4b9c-995c-c8d01c247fb3" CreationDate="2019-11-07T22:13:34.163" UserId="2892" Comment="Added reference" Text="In certain Christian traditions, [holy water is a mixture of salt and water][1] that has been blessed by a priest. Witches, vampires, and other nasty evil creatures were considered violently allergic to holy water. In the middle ages, due to the demand, there was even a delivery service for holy water in cities, like the milkman in the 20th century.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blessed_salt_in_Christianity" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20033" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6003" RevisionGUID="70967595-a420-460f-adcb-05f39f44ba02" CreationDate="2019-11-09T03:26:52.993" UserId="6478" Text="I'm writing an essay on the hubris of Jason in Euripides Medea and while reading it, I still don't understand what he means by this line. So Jason is explaining to Medea that he left her because he wanted to ensure that his children would be rich and live a life like a royal and then he says this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I wish to raise my children as befits my noble house,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and father brothers for these sons I’ve had by you;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;to put them on a par, to unify the line,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and so achieve a happy life&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**For you … what need of children do you have?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whereas for me it cashes in a gain to benefit&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;my living sons through those as yet unborn.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not bad, my long-term planning? (Lines 562-568)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For you … what need of children do you have? This is the line I'm confused about, is he saying that she is only needed to create children and that she isn't useful for anything else?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20034" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6003" RevisionGUID="70967595-a420-460f-adcb-05f39f44ba02" CreationDate="2019-11-09T03:26:52.993" UserId="6478" Text="What did Jason mean in Euripides Medea by saying what use do you have of children?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20035" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6003" RevisionGUID="70967595-a420-460f-adcb-05f39f44ba02" CreationDate="2019-11-09T03:26:52.993" UserId="6478" Text="|greek|interpretation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20037" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6004" RevisionGUID="9c9a50bd-c7a7-4f0b-99a2-d1f316fdcb91" CreationDate="2019-11-09T19:00:28.567" UserId="6167" Text="I think it's more along the lines of Jason needing children to continue his 'noble line', the implied insult being that Medea has no noble line and therefore no need to have children. As Medea is the daughter of a King, this is an insult both to her and her family. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20041" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6006" RevisionGUID="acc0c4f6-f24b-4a7d-b5d8-8a5fba0c1ef9" CreationDate="2019-11-09T23:51:53.557" UserId="6161" Text="(Specifically Scandinavia, Iceland, Finland, Gotland, Baltic lands, and Russian Slavic lands to the east of the Baltic) I am aware of recorded paganism in Henry of Livonia's *Chronicle of Livonia* (i.e. Taara, and idolatry) and *The Chronicle of Novgorod* (i.e. Perun, Simargl, Mokosh etc.), but any other knowledge on paganism from these regions would be much appreciated." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20042" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6006" RevisionGUID="acc0c4f6-f24b-4a7d-b5d8-8a5fba0c1ef9" CreationDate="2019-11-09T23:51:53.557" UserId="6161" Text="Are there any known records of pagan worship in early 13th century Europe?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20043" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6006" RevisionGUID="acc0c4f6-f24b-4a7d-b5d8-8a5fba0c1ef9" CreationDate="2019-11-09T23:51:53.557" UserId="6161" Text="|norse|slavic|pagan|christianization|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20044" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6007" RevisionGUID="48a52355-b93d-42a3-abe2-36212d285c25" CreationDate="2019-11-10T01:07:21.080" UserId="6481" Text="There seem to be at least three explanations that together have shaped this story.&#xD;&#xA;1) It refects an amazing survival of an ancient Celtic ritual. That of the threefold death - a blow, spear thrust or throat cutting, strangulation and drowning that we see in certain bog burials, albeit much modified.&#xD;&#xA;2) It is the Welsh version of the invulnerable hero that can only be slain by a spear or arrow at a particular spot or in a partcular way. Other examples include Achilles, Sigurd/Siegfried, and Balder.&#xD;&#xA;3) It is a version of the death of his Irish equivalent Lugh Lamfada who is killed firstly by a spear thrust and then by drowning" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20045" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6008" RevisionGUID="4cc7c358-686e-4236-a69b-93dccaaa3b7c" CreationDate="2019-11-10T18:09:18.240" UserId="5225" Text="I have read Zimmer's *Myths And Symbols In Indian Art And Civilization*, and loved it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would like to find some other books along those lines (attention to the beauty of the narration, the ideas more than their history, their expression in art), and if possible (but I understand that might be asking something contradictory) more... systematic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any recommendation?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20046" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6008" RevisionGUID="4cc7c358-686e-4236-a69b-93dccaaa3b7c" CreationDate="2019-11-10T18:09:18.240" UserId="5225" Text="Books on Hinduism, with an eye on art" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20047" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6008" RevisionGUID="4cc7c358-686e-4236-a69b-93dccaaa3b7c" CreationDate="2019-11-10T18:09:18.240" UserId="5225" Text="|hindu|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20048" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6009" RevisionGUID="6adf2e85-354f-4ebc-8b28-4b2d71d8e558" CreationDate="2019-11-10T20:35:50.030" UserId="5511" Text="For art as we generally think of it in the West, the [anniversary edition from the British Museum][1] written by [William Dalrymple][2]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for art as it is generally understood in Hindu culture, there is no one, all-emcompassing book, since there are [64 distinct traditional disciplines in Hindu art][3]. Since you are interested in symbolism, I will list some disciplines that use symbols in either written or gesture form:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - gita — art of singing, uses [svara][4]&#xD;&#xA; - vadya — art of playing on musical instruments, uses [svara][4]&#xD;&#xA; - nritya — [art of dancing][5], uses mudra (symbolic gestures)&#xD;&#xA; - natya — art of theatricals, fully detailed in the [Natya Shastra][6]&#xD;&#xA; - alekhya — art of painting. This is a very extensive cover-term, many styles deserve their own book, like Rajput, Tajore, Pattachitra, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2007/aug/25/art.art&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Dalrymple_(historian)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_art#Numerical_list&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svara&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_classical_dance&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natya_Shastra" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20049" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6010" RevisionGUID="79847f64-390d-4954-bafa-7f09a66ba26d" CreationDate="2019-11-11T01:10:23.083" UserId="6161" Text="Wisdom and Ignorance is a common dichotomy across many religions, and I was wondering if there are any specific examples of personifications or deities of wisdom and/or ignorance in mythological stories. (It can also be more symbolic, like how Adam's and Eve's temptations by the serpent--symbolically an animal of wisdom--in the Garden of Eden led them into a state of knowledge, while they previously existed in a state of blissful ignorance) Any insight on this somewhat obscure topic would be much appreciated." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20050" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6010" RevisionGUID="79847f64-390d-4954-bafa-7f09a66ba26d" CreationDate="2019-11-11T01:10:23.083" UserId="6161" Text="How have ignorance and wisdom been represented in mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20051" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6010" RevisionGUID="79847f64-390d-4954-bafa-7f09a66ba26d" CreationDate="2019-11-11T01:10:23.083" UserId="6161" Text="|comparative|symbolism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20052" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6011" RevisionGUID="fea3a17f-658d-4f5f-bdbc-21c30d62214f" CreationDate="2019-11-11T13:25:29.440" UserId="6486" Text="Freyr and Odin know that Hel would use the fallen humans in Helheim to fight against them. If they knew about this, why would they want their own downfall?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20053" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6011" RevisionGUID="fea3a17f-658d-4f5f-bdbc-21c30d62214f" CreationDate="2019-11-11T13:25:29.440" UserId="6486" Text="If Freyr and Odin knew that Hel would use the dishonoured humans to fight against them, why would they still send the humans there?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20054" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6011" RevisionGUID="fea3a17f-658d-4f5f-bdbc-21c30d62214f" CreationDate="2019-11-11T13:25:29.440" UserId="6486" Text="|ragnarok|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20055" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6012" RevisionGUID="76787a11-b982-4cd9-adf1-53d1051fd58d" CreationDate="2019-11-11T21:20:53.763" UserId="666" Text="Well, sources for Scandinavia during that period are generally scarce, so it is hard to say for sure. Most of Denmark, Iceland, Norway and Sweden, as well as the other colonies in the northern Atlantic, were at that point rather firmly Christian. There are a few practicers of pagan worship from later centuries, including the late 15th century churchthief [Ragvald Odenskarl][1], who said that he worshipped Odin, but it is hard to say for sure how widespread such things were. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We can be more sure that many of the Sami people in northern Scandinavia were still pagans; we have many accounts from latter centuries of attempts to spread Christianity to them, for example by [Margareta][2], who herself was a convert. Most of what we know of Sami myths is recorded much later.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Furthermore, Finland was at best partially Christianized. Early 13th century is exactly the period when we start to get sources dealing with it, due to the Swedish kings beginning to establish domain there, culminating in what is known as the [second Swedish crusade][3]. Primary sources for the process are mainly a papal letter, and the much later *[Eric Chronicle][4]*. Neither of these show any particular interest in the belief of the Finns.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragvald_Odenskarl&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margareta_(missionary)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Swedish_Crusade&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Chronicle" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20056" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6013" RevisionGUID="397a632f-9856-4f5d-85a4-ff2274f39b0d" CreationDate="2019-11-12T21:09:02.393" UserId="6394" Text="I've been very impressed by the online archive of classical texts at theoi.com, and have been using it to verify dubious-sounding claims from e.g. Robert Graves against the text of the myths themselves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, sometimes, theoi will cite a &quot;scholiast&quot; as a source for its information - for example &quot;Schol. ad Theocrit&quot; (Scholiast of Theocritus). Printed references, like Smith's &quot;Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology&quot; also sometimes cite these. And while the text of the myths is hosted on theoi to check against, I cannot find the scholia anywhere, either on that site or on the wider Internet!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is mostly a request for information on where to find English translations of the scholia. But if these translations generally don't exist - if the scholars tend to work from the original Greek and Latin texts of these, for example - then please let me know. I really don't want to spend too long fruitlessly searching for e.g. &quot;Schol. ad Apollon. Rhod&quot; (which AFAICT is actually a scholiast on his Argonautica!)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20057" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6013" RevisionGUID="397a632f-9856-4f5d-85a4-ff2274f39b0d" CreationDate="2019-11-12T21:09:02.393" UserId="6394" Text="Finding translations of Greek scholia" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20058" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6013" RevisionGUID="397a632f-9856-4f5d-85a4-ff2274f39b0d" CreationDate="2019-11-12T21:09:02.393" UserId="6394" Text="|greek|translation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20059" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6014" RevisionGUID="1ae8c842-5223-4939-9061-b5f7cbb00ce3" CreationDate="2019-11-12T23:15:39.547" UserId="5229" Text="As far as I know (having been searching for a long time), there's no published translation (English or otherwise) of any complete set of Greek scholia. But there are possible workarounds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Commentaries often quote or paraphrase scholia, so you might start by looking at a commentary on the quoted passage. For example, Perseus has a digitized copy of a [Commentary on Apollonius' Argonautica](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0068:text=comm). A search (for &quot;schol&quot;) reveals that the scholiast is quoted at least 431 times in the work. If you look in the commentary, you might find a mention of the scholia you're looking for in translation or paraphrase.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. If you have a scholarly book on a relevant topic (scholia or mythology), look in the back for an index or index locorum, and see if the scholia you're looking for are referred to in the book. The scholia might be quoted and translated.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. If you happen to be looking for scholia on Euripides' *Orestes*, the [Euripides Scholia](http://euripidesscholia.org/) database has some (not all) of them translated.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. Obviously, if all else fails, you can look in the original Greek and translate it yourself. For example, scholia on Apollonius Rhodius can be found [here](https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_oBI-AAAAcAAJ/page/n21).&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20060" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="6011" RevisionGUID="e26af204-60ed-4f42-9861-69300e8361f3" CreationDate="2019-11-13T08:59:44.010" UserId="-1" Comment="101" Text="{&quot;OriginalQuestionIds&quot;:[5309],&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:666,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;andejons&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:5726,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Tom&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:1317,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Spencer&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:5541,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Calaom&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="20061" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="5981" RevisionGUID="5f429afd-c572-4165-aa0b-e66318644545" CreationDate="2019-11-13T09:02:43.513" UserId="-1" Comment="101" Text="{&quot;OriginalQuestionIds&quot;:[1132],&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:5726,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Tom&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:1241,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ken Graham&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:5247,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Charlie Tizzard Ó Kevlahan&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:5541,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Calaom&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="20062" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1231" RevisionGUID="126ce079-cf20-4642-bb1f-3a1fecfb3b5b" CreationDate="2019-11-13T11:52:20.867" UserId="-1" Comment="Basically, one who is considered a narcissist." Text="Psychic vampires. &#xD;&#xA;[Here's a Wikipedia entry][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a popular myth that they feed on people's emotions, especially negative ones. This is also sometimes attributed to people who seem to provoke negative emotions in others on purpose.&#xD;&#xA;Basically, one who is considered a narcissist.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychic_vampire" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20063" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1231" RevisionGUID="126ce079-cf20-4642-bb1f-3a1fecfb3b5b" CreationDate="2019-11-13T11:52:20.867" Comment="Proposed by anonymous approved by 292, 2774 edit id of 1766" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20064" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6015" RevisionGUID="6dd201b1-b937-4dc7-8ef1-c8edafb52538" CreationDate="2019-11-13T16:47:14.517" UserId="2774" Text="Know that this is an incredibly complex question in that sense: when we are speaking of &quot;dragon&quot;, &quot;wyrm&quot;, &quot;drake&quot;, &quot;wyvern&quot;, we are referring to modern terms, and not necessary at all to medieval terms and what they meant for medieval people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Brief overview&#xD;&#xA;--------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In early Middle Age dragons are personification of evil, and especially Satan. They are generally fought by saints who used them to show the all mighty power of the true God (according to the said saints!). Those saints are Saint Georges, Saint Michel, Saint Marcel, or even female saints Saint Marguerite, Saint Marthe.&#xD;&#xA;In later period, they are fought by knights in Middle Age novels as a kind of rite of passage. They are much more the mandatory tough enemy much more than a final epic fight.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dragon representation in Middle Age&#xD;&#xA;-----------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now let's take a look at dragon as seen by artists during Middle Age (once again let's forget here modern thinking, let's look at what artists painted during the Middle Age).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is a representation of the Archangels fighting the Beast of the Apocalypse (picture from the Apocalypse glosée). Notice, the dragon has 6 heads on the front and one head on the tail (The Beast with the seven heads and ten horns), it's bipedal, and has feathered short wings echoing the large wings of the archangels. &lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is Saint Liphar and the dragon from &quot;Les grandes heures d'Anne de Bretagne&quot;. Bidepdal small dragon much more looking as a fancy dog than anything else (the former arch-enemies are now the pets of saints, that's the power of God (!)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And here from Queste Del Graal Percival and his lion fighting the dreaded serpent. Once again a bipedal creature with small wings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And to finish, here is a depiction from Germany of Sigurd killing the dragon Fafnir. This is from the Ramsund carving. Notice that Fafnir the most renown dragon is depicted as a giant snake.&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I could go on and on to demonstrate that: Dragon in Middle Age are not specifically four legged creatures with wings. That doesn't mean they are not. that means that when they are it is only one of the way there are shown.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding the term &quot;dragon&quot; and &quot;wyrm&quot;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wyrm is known in English to depict the creature fought by the hero Beowulf. That creature is either referred as &quot;wyrm&quot; or &quot;draca&quot;. For any decent Tolkien reader (which I am not) this is totally important just because Tolkien was a huge fan of Beowulf and his depiction of Smaug is rooted in that fight. And thus part of our modern tradition is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wyrm is an old English world which altered later into worm. &#xD;&#xA;Thomas Eliot's [dictionary][5] (1542) only know draco, onis, a dragon.&#xD;&#xA;Samuel Johnson's dictionary (1755) give us this sense for [worm][6]: 1-  A small harmless serpent that lives in the earth, 2- A poisonous serpent. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you take a look now at English literature: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In Sir Thomas Malory's La Morte d'Arthur (1485), dragons are common references, wyrm or worm are never mentioned, they are not existent.&#xD;&#xA; - In Edmund Spenser's Faerie Queene (1596) dragons are relatively common (it is the mandatory rite of passage of the Redcross Knight), when worm never occurred as fantastic creatures (they &quot;appeared&quot; as our modern worms)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what it seems that in early English, wyrm and dragon were equivalent, as English progressed, worm recessed at first as a small 'serpent' before simply vanishing from the language, letting only the term dragon survive.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The winged serpent&#xD;&#xA;------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would like to notice something, most of the depiction of the dragon is roughly a winged serpent, and winged serpents are incredibly common in mythologies and ridiculously old. Example: Egypt is the reunion of lower and upper Egypt and each of those lands were associated with a patron goddess. The patron goddess of lower Egypt was Wadjet a winged serpent. This is so remnant in Egypt that when Herodotus visited Egypt he mentioned he saw such winged snakes in Bouto. &quot;The snake has a form of a water snake and bears wing-like membrane that lack feathers, quite similar to the wing of a bat&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding the term Wyvern&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------&#xD;&#xA;At the origin, wyverns, aka Guivre, Vouivre or Vipera, are creatures with ears like horns described by Pliny whose reproductive behaviors is that the female is eating the head of its male when mating. During the middle age that creature will gain most of the features of the dragon as shown here:&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][7]][7] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you take a look at Pliny's description of the wyvern and take a look at the Ramsund carving, you will see that the most renown dragon is a... wyvern!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice that in French la guivre or la vouivre is a kind of snake. As in Italy. The symbol of the [Visconty of Milan][8] is la guivra a snake eating a baby. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding the term &quot;Drake&quot;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------&#xD;&#xA;Drake is coming from the old English term Draca (one of the term defining the last enemy of Beowulf); coming from the latin draco, dragon. Drake is the common name of the youngster of dragons. No such reference exists whatsoever in Middle Age, it is purely a modern term.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The dragon in heraldry&#xD;&#xA;----------------------&#xD;&#xA;Heraldry is one of the most codified thing in the world, in the traditional heraldic world, and in English countries ONLY (what follows is so entirely false for France, Spain, Italy, Germany, Nederlands, etc.):&#xD;&#xA;- Dragons are four legged, 2 bats winged creatures&#xD;&#xA;- Wyverns are 2 legged, 2 winged creatures&#xD;&#xA;- Wyrms are not represented&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A final warning: Even that is quite false in the history of English heraldry (which by eon I am not an expert) and you will find dragons with 2 legs and wyverns with four!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Conclusion&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;During Middle Age what are the differences between Wyrms, Dragons, Wyverns and Drakes. Simply: Drakes are nonexistent. Dragons, wyrms and wyverns are mostly interchangeable terms, when wyrms will disappear progressively from the English vocabulary.&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;How many legs have they? As much as the artists painting it want (0, 2, 4)&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;How many heads? As much as the artists painting it want (0, 2, 4, 7)&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;How many wings? As much as the artists painting it want (0, 2, 4)&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Feathers? Scales? As the artists want.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding Tolkien&#xD;&#xA;-----------------&#xD;&#xA;It is my knowledge that dragons in Tolkien are following this pattern. Smaug is described as a &quot;wyvern&quot; still referenced as a dragon, and Glaurung is named the Black Worm. I am by eons not even remotely any sort of expert in Tolkien.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/YBOgx.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/fd304.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Y2QS6.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Asmyu.png&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://leme.library.utoronto.ca/lexicon/entry/63/9980&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://leme.library.utoronto.ca/lexicon/entry/1345/42475&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/vVvCy.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visconti_of_Milan" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20065" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6016" RevisionGUID="90baff03-4210-43ca-8463-0a0ea2d7e2f4" CreationDate="2019-11-14T08:46:28.970" UserId="6394" Text="In Smith's &quot;Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology.&quot;, the entry for the Pleiades states:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to another story, the Pleiades were virgin companions of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Artemis, and, together with their mother Pleione, were pursued by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hunter Orion in Boeotia; their prayer to be rescued from him was heard&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by the gods, and they were metamorphosed into doves (peleiades), and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; placed among the stars (Hygin. Poet. Astr. ii. 21; Schol. ad Apollon.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Rhod. iii. 226; Pind. Nem. ii. 17).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Following up the citations:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyginus, Astronomica 2.21 doesn't mention Artemis, although it does mention all the other elements of the story - Orion, Boeotia, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pindar's Nemean Odea only makes a brief remark anout Orion needing (wanting?) to stay close to the Pleiades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Scholiast on Apollonius (many thanks to @b-a for directing me to https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_oBI-AAAAcAAJ/page/n573 and https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_oBI-AAAAcAAJ/page/n575) I'm less sure about, since I don't know the Greek language well. But I cannot see the name &quot;Artemis&quot; (Αρτεμις) there at all.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Am I correct that none of these three sources refer to any possible link between Artemis and the Pleiades? Or can someone fluent in Greek see something in the Scholiast I couldn't?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(As a possible follow-up question... is there anything in the texts and scholiasts that does state &quot;Yes, the Pleiads were among Artemis's companions&quot;, or indeed testify to any link other than Taygete giving her the Hind?)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks all." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20066" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6016" RevisionGUID="90baff03-4210-43ca-8463-0a0ea2d7e2f4" CreationDate="2019-11-14T08:46:28.970" UserId="6394" Text="Artemis and the Pleiades" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20067" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6016" RevisionGUID="90baff03-4210-43ca-8463-0a0ea2d7e2f4" CreationDate="2019-11-14T08:46:28.970" UserId="6394" Text="|greek|translation|artemis|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20068" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6017" RevisionGUID="7cc7a22e-c10e-4c5b-ad6c-73271bc17917" CreationDate="2019-11-14T10:31:32.110" UserId="6495" Text="Actually, in summary, he was worshipped in ancient China, or even across asia under the title Qi Tian DaSheng even before Journey to the west was written. The god was basically adapted into a novel rather than the other way around. Check out this documentary of his temples:&#xD;&#xA;https://youtu.be/bCS_UQx7kyU" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20075" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6019" RevisionGUID="c7592c13-8dab-4ab1-a5d3-e33bffd7bb27" CreationDate="2019-11-16T21:45:40.787" UserId="6339" Text=" My answer covers personifications and deities of wisdom and ignorance from Hindu or Hinduism mythology point of view. &#xD;&#xA;In Hinduism mythology, there are various gods/goddesses which are associated with wisdom, learning and knowledge etc. , most prominently Hindu god Ganesha, goddess Saraswati, goddesses Gayatri etc. and lot's of stories about these deities of wisdom are present in Hinduism Mythology - &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For those who are new to Hindu Mythology, Hindu mythological stories are found in books called as  Puranas as well as Itihasa like Ramayana and Mahabharata. Vedas are the ancient scriptures of Hinduism and they also contain the stories in books called &quot;Brahmanas&quot; which are linked with each of the four Vedas. The source of all Hinduism mythological stories is Vedas, they are not described in details in Vedas, but are elaborately narrated in Puranas and Itihasa. we will begin with the personification of ignorance and then will see deities associated with wisdom.&#xD;&#xA;#Personification of ignorance in Hindu Mythology. &#xD;&#xA;Ignorance is a lack of knowledge and information state of being unaware and can describe individuals who deliberately ignore or disregard important information or facts or individuals who are unaware of important information or facts. In Hinduism, Avidyā is a Sanskrit word whose literal meaning is ignorance. Therefore, avidya means to &quot;not know, not perceive, not understand&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Hindu mythology, there is the personification of this Avidya or ignorance called as [**Apasmara.**][1] He is depicted as a dwarf demon. Actually demon in not as actual sense but as an enemy of man  telling that  Ignorance is our enemy.  Apasmara could not be killed, he is destined to immortality ( as there always will be some kind of ignorance present in the world). &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA; **Apasmara** is part of the Nataraja sculpture. Lord Śiva adopted the form of Śrī Naṭarāja - the Lord of Dance and performed the cosmic dance of Tāṇḍava. During this dance, Śrī Naṭarāja suppressed Apasmāra by crushing him with his right foot. This denotes that Lord Shiva is &#xD;&#xA;#Description of Apasmara &#xD;&#xA; Apasmara is clad with a dhotī ( loincloth). His face is to the left of Śiva, lifted up, and he has a small horn. He has one necklace. He holds something in his hand, which may be a broom. As per the description of Apasmāra in Kālikākhaṇḍa of Skandapurāṇa, he should be black in colour, have three heads and three eyes, six protruding canine teeth, three legs and six hands.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#Deities of Wisdom In Hindu Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Saraswati, goddess of knowledge, creativity and speech.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - &#xD;&#xA;Ganesha, the god of intellect and wisdom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Brihaspati, Guru of the gods, bestower of knowledge and eloquence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Dakshinamurthy, aspect of the god Shiva as a guru and bestower of knowledge&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Hayagriva, the god of knowledge and wisdom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Gayatri, goddess of knowledge and Hindu scriptures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Savitri, goddess of wisdom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apasmara" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20079" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6021" RevisionGUID="4011eb70-134b-412e-b04e-8422d2250ef0" CreationDate="2019-11-17T14:03:20.450" UserId="5229" Text="The [scholiast to Apollonius of Rhodes](https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_oBI-AAAAcAAJ/page/n573) gives the story with Orion, but nothing about Artemis. The [scholiast to Pindar Nemean 2.17-18](https://scaife.perseus.org/reader/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg5034.tlg001c.perseus-grc1:2.17) also gives the story with Orion (along with a lot of non-mythological content). I don't see in either one of them a reference to a connection with Artemis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there are sources for this in the scholia, which you have already found and mentioned in the comments. These sources do explicitly say that Taygete and the other Pleiades were friends or hunted with Artemis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The relevant extracts are (with my non-expert translation):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Scholiast to Pindar Olympian 3.53](https://scaife.perseus.org/reader/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg5034.tlg001a.perseus-grc1:3.53/)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Ταϋγέτα: ἡ Τηϋγέτη τῆς Ἀρτέμιδός ἐστι φίλη. ταύτης ἠράσθη Ζεὺς καὶ αὐτὴν Ἄρτεμις διωκομένην εἰς ἔλαφον μεταβάλλει·&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Taygete is a companion of Artemis. Zeus fell in love with her, and Artemis transformed her into a deer as she was pursued by him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Scholiast to Iliad 18.486](https://scaife.perseus.org/reader/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg5026.tlg001.1st1K-grc1:2.18.198/)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;αὗται δέ εἰσιν Ἄτλαντος καὶ Πληϊόνης θυγατέρες, ὧν τὰ ὀνόματα Μαῖα, Ταϋγέτη, Κελαινὼ, Μερόπη, Ἠλέκτρα, Στερόπη, Ἀλκυόνη. Ἄτλας δὲ εἷς τῶν Γιγάντων μιγεὶς Πληϊόνῃ τῇ·Ὠκεανοῦ ἔσχε θυγατέρας ζ, αἳ τὴν παρθενείαν ἀγαπήσασαι συνεκυνήγουν τῇ Ἀρτέμιδι.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;They [the Pleiades] are the daughters of Atlas and Pleione, whose names are Maia, Taygete, Kelaino, Merope, Elektra, Sterope, Alkyone. And Atlas, one of the Giants, had seven daughters through Pleione the daughter of Okeanos, who were lovers of virginity, and they hunted together with Artemis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A possibly important detail is that when the latter scholiast then proceeds with the story of Orion, it's quoted on the authority of the lost Epic Cycle, so this detail about the Pleiades as Artemis' companions may have also come from there." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20080" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6022" RevisionGUID="6e4ae1b9-c512-4c8c-af00-6e13aeb306cf" CreationDate="2019-11-17T22:41:12.053" UserId="4152" Text="This motif sounds a lot like the [Bridge Chinvat][1], from Zoroastrian tradition and [As-Sirat][2] is Islamic.  In those religions, upon the death of the body, a soul comes to a bridge which must be passed over.  The good may pass over a broad bridge and come into paradise; the evil try to pass over a narrow bridge.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is certainly no official teaching of crossing such a bridge in either Judaism (that I'm aware of) or Catholicism, though pious inventions and traditions are a different matter!  I'd hazard the guess that Luther, who by the way, got purgatory wrong (it's not a place of punishment at all), was not referring to either one or the other of these beliefs, but rather to an older story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for der Ritter Tondalo, we need to look back to the 12th century and the [Visio Tnugdali][3], written by an Irish monk living in Germany. The story takes place in Ireland where the knight, Tundale (his English name) is guided by an angel on a visionary tour through Heaven and Hell, antedating Dante by a good while.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It could well be that monk Marcus had some knowledge of the Islamic or Zoroastrian traditions.  Or it could be his own, parallel, invention.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinvat_Bridge&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As-Sir%C4%81t&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visio_Tnugdali" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20081" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6021" RevisionGUID="86db3688-c627-456d-934c-9e3cc76678ac" CreationDate="2019-11-17T23:03:30.020" UserId="5229" Comment="deleted 16 characters in body" Text="The [scholiast to Apollonius of Rhodes](https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_oBI-AAAAcAAJ/page/n573) gives the story with Orion, but nothing about Artemis. The [scholiast to Pindar Nemean 2.17-18](https://scaife.perseus.org/reader/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg5034.tlg001c.perseus-grc1:2.17) also gives the story with Orion (along with a lot of non-mythological content). I don't see in either one of them a reference to a connection with Artemis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there are sources for this in the scholia, which you have already found and mentioned in the comments. These sources do explicitly say that Taygete and the other Pleiades were friends or hunted with Artemis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The relevant extracts are (with my non-expert translation):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Scholiast to Pindar Olympian 3.53](https://scaife.perseus.org/reader/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg5034.tlg001a.perseus-grc1:3.53/)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Ταϋγέτα: ἡ Τηϋγέτη τῆς Ἀρτέμιδός ἐστι φίλη. ταύτης ἠράσθη Ζεὺς καὶ αὐτὴν Ἄρτεμις διωκομένην εἰς ἔλαφον μεταβάλλει·&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Taygete is a companion of Artemis. Zeus fell in love with her, and Artemis transformed her into a deer as she was pursued by him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Scholiast to Iliad 18.486](https://scaife.perseus.org/reader/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg5026.tlg001.1st1K-grc1:2.18.198/)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;αὗται δέ εἰσιν Ἄτλαντος καὶ Πληϊόνης θυγατέρες, ὧν τὰ ὀνόματα Μαῖα, Ταϋγέτη, Κελαινὼ, Μερόπη, Ἠλέκτρα, Στερόπη, Ἀλκυόνη. Ἄτλας δὲ εἷς τῶν Γιγάντων μιγεὶς Πληϊόνῃ τῇ·Ὠκεανοῦ ἔσχε θυγατέρας ζ, αἳ τὴν παρθενείαν ἀγαπήσασαι συνεκυνήγουν τῇ Ἀρτέμιδι.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;They [the Pleiades] are the daughters of Atlas and Pleione, whose names are Maia, Taygete, Kelaino, Merope, Elektra, Sterope, Alkyone. And Atlas, one of the Giants, had seven daughters through Pleione the daughter of Okeanos, who, loving virginity, hunted together with Artemis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A possibly important detail is that when the latter scholiast then proceeds with the story of Orion, it's quoted on the authority of the lost Epic Cycle, so this detail about the Pleiades as Artemis' companions may have also come from there." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20082" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6023" RevisionGUID="e9f520ca-8635-46c2-a41a-7aee3c7a2325" CreationDate="2019-11-18T04:08:08.803" UserId="6502" Text="I have heard that those with triple iris eyes were said to be psychic, clairvoyant, etc.  Is this true if so in what myths does this concept appear." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20083" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6023" RevisionGUID="e9f520ca-8635-46c2-a41a-7aee3c7a2325" CreationDate="2019-11-18T04:08:08.803" UserId="6502" Text="I have heard that those with triple iris eyes were said to be psychic, clairvoyant, etc" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20084" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6023" RevisionGUID="e9f520ca-8635-46c2-a41a-7aee3c7a2325" CreationDate="2019-11-18T04:08:08.803" UserId="6502" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20086" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6025" RevisionGUID="29968430-5ce0-41b0-9021-5150ded48217" CreationDate="2019-11-19T05:15:05.373" UserId="6505" Text="Once Loki is chained in the cave beneath the serpent, he is destined to remain there trough the ages until the day of Ragnarok.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But in other parts of Norse myth, it's made clear that the gods must eat Idun's apples from time to time or they grow old and weak.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How does Loki survive through the ages without eating those apples?  And when Ragnarok finally comes, how is he fit enough to go into battle and kill other gods like Heimdall?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20087" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6025" RevisionGUID="29968430-5ce0-41b0-9021-5150ded48217" CreationDate="2019-11-19T05:15:05.373" UserId="6505" Text="Does Loki grow old and infirm while chained beneath the serpent?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20088" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6025" RevisionGUID="29968430-5ce0-41b0-9021-5150ded48217" CreationDate="2019-11-19T05:15:05.373" UserId="6505" Text="|norse|loki|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20089" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="6025" RevisionGUID="89ae0860-2c13-4982-8415-a1995ab6633b" CreationDate="2019-11-19T05:32:14.940" UserId="6505" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|ragnarok|loki|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20093" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5989" RevisionGUID="f64f0aa9-37e9-4e84-a7f1-ea9087ee560b" CreationDate="2019-11-19T12:03:18.443" UserId="5726" Comment="added 118 characters in body" Text="For questions about the mythology of the Minoan civilization, a Bronze Age Aegean civilization on the island of Crete." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20094" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5989" RevisionGUID="f64f0aa9-37e9-4e84-a7f1-ea9087ee560b" CreationDate="2019-11-19T12:03:18.443" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 2774, 108 edit id of 1767" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20095" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="6023" RevisionGUID="bcf04eee-029a-4e80-97a6-2da09b74f8e2" CreationDate="2019-11-19T12:04:07.873" UserId="108" Comment="edited title" Text="Are there myths that contains the concept that people with triple iris eyes are psychic or clairvoyant?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20096" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6021" RevisionGUID="e2d81d64-479c-4dae-8021-7fdcad46f1da" CreationDate="2019-11-19T16:32:43.967" UserId="5229" Comment="clarifying the antecedent" Text="The [scholiast to Apollonius of Rhodes](https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_oBI-AAAAcAAJ/page/n573) gives the story with Orion, but nothing about Artemis. The [scholiast to Pindar Nemean 2.17-18](https://scaife.perseus.org/reader/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg5034.tlg001c.perseus-grc1:2.17) also gives the story with Orion (along with a lot of non-mythological content). I don't see in either one of them a reference to a connection with Artemis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there are sources for this in the scholia, which you have already found and mentioned in the comments. These sources do explicitly say that Taygete and the other Pleiades were friends or hunted with Artemis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The relevant extracts are (with my non-expert translation):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Scholiast to Pindar Olympian 3.53](https://scaife.perseus.org/reader/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg5034.tlg001a.perseus-grc1:3.53/)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Ταϋγέτα: ἡ Τηϋγέτη τῆς Ἀρτέμιδός ἐστι φίλη. ταύτης ἠράσθη Ζεὺς καὶ αὐτὴν Ἄρτεμις διωκομένην εἰς ἔλαφον μεταβάλλει·&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Taygete is a companion of Artemis. Zeus fell in love with her, and Artemis transformed her into a deer as she was pursued by him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Scholiast to Iliad 18.486](https://scaife.perseus.org/reader/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg5026.tlg001.1st1K-grc1:2.18.198/)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;αὗται δέ εἰσιν Ἄτλαντος καὶ Πληϊόνης θυγατέρες, ὧν τὰ ὀνόματα Μαῖα, Ταϋγέτη, Κελαινὼ, Μερόπη, Ἠλέκτρα, Στερόπη, Ἀλκυόνη. Ἄτλας δὲ εἷς τῶν Γιγάντων μιγεὶς Πληϊόνῃ τῇ·Ὠκεανοῦ ἔσχε θυγατέρας ζ, αἳ τὴν παρθενείαν ἀγαπήσασαι συνεκυνήγουν τῇ Ἀρτέμιδι.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;They [the Pleiades] are the daughters of Atlas and Pleione, whose names are Maia, Taygete, Kelaino, Merope, Elektra, Sterope, Alkyone. And Atlas, one of the Giants, had seven daughters through Pleione the daughter of Okeanos, who, being lovers of virginity, hunted together with Artemis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A possibly important detail is that when the latter scholiast then proceeds with the story of Orion, it's quoted on the authority of the lost Epic Cycle, so this detail about the Pleiades as Artemis' companions may have also come from there." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20097" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="226" RevisionGUID="ea89f92a-a8a5-4130-afeb-6126300ce117" CreationDate="2019-11-20T08:58:27.950" UserId="111" Comment="fixed typo in title" Text="How are future apocalyptic events detailed so greatly?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20098" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5993" RevisionGUID="f657b319-e346-4a1c-bad6-97abf1820d32" CreationDate="2019-11-20T09:29:52.423" UserId="5726" Comment="added 221 characters in body" Text="For questions about Plato, an Athenian philosopher during the Classical period in Ancient Greece, founder of the Platonist school of thought, and the Academy, the first institution of higher learning in the Western world." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20099" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5993" RevisionGUID="f657b319-e346-4a1c-bad6-97abf1820d32" CreationDate="2019-11-20T09:29:52.423" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 2774, 108 edit id of 1769" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20100" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5991" RevisionGUID="8546882d-2739-481d-8e25-a903d5a2ac4d" CreationDate="2019-11-20T09:30:08.827" UserId="5726" Comment="added 127 characters in body" Text="For questions about Circe, a Greek goddess of sorcery  who was skilled in the magic of transmutation, illusion, and necromancy." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20101" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5991" RevisionGUID="8546882d-2739-481d-8e25-a903d5a2ac4d" CreationDate="2019-11-20T09:30:08.827" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 2774, 108 edit id of 1768" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20102" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5690" RevisionGUID="d31d7f33-3121-406c-bd5d-c9c8d1b4fd9a" CreationDate="2019-11-20T09:30:11.460" UserId="5726" Comment="added 137 characters in body" Text="For questions pertaining the devil, the personification of evil as it is conceived in many and various cultures and religious traditions." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20103" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5690" RevisionGUID="d31d7f33-3121-406c-bd5d-c9c8d1b4fd9a" CreationDate="2019-11-20T09:30:11.460" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 2774, 108 edit id of 1770" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20104" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6026" RevisionGUID="304a41d2-e9ca-4975-918f-1e30b601b062" CreationDate="2019-11-20T15:13:00.333" UserId="5511" Text="I believe you mean the concept of the [Third Eye](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_eye), which originated in Hindu mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The third eye (also called the mind's eye, or inner eye) is a mystical and esoteric concept of a speculative invisible eye, usually depicted as located on the forehead, which provides perception beyond ordinary sight.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Paraphrasing the Rig Veda:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; After the death of his lover Sati, Shiva withdrew from all society and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in pain, he started to meditate. His meditation was so deep that the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; other gods could not wake him, even after Sati was reborn as Parvati.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Finally, the gods sent Kama, the god of love, to wake Shiva. Kama&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thought that using one of his arrows would do the trick but after the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; arrow struck Shiva, the third eye opened up and sent a flame engulfing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kama.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; When Shiva’s meditation was broken, he did experience desire for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Parvati but instead of letting his desire win, Shiva’s anger became&#xD;&#xA;&gt; greater and a third eye opened up in his forehead." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20105" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6027" RevisionGUID="69d514cd-f7b8-4c93-818c-fc0cc3213d2d" CreationDate="2019-11-20T16:14:16.130" UserId="4152" Text="I think the idea that [polycoria][1] is linked to special powers must be rather widespread.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apart from the &quot;third eye&quot; of Indian tradition, we find in Irish tradition the hero Cú Chulainn has multiple pupils.  According to [Britannica][2]: &quot;His prowess was increased by the gift of seven fingers on each hand, seven toes on each foot, and seven pupils in each eye.&quot;  It's been a while since I read the Ulster Cycle, but I don't recall him being clairvoyant or psychic per se. He certainly exhibited great physical strength, endurance, agility and beauty beyond that of most other men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycoria&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Cu-Chulainn" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20106" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6028" RevisionGUID="18ba6403-9775-41b2-8ce5-efd41fcd41ba" CreationDate="2019-11-21T05:06:10.680" UserId="6509" Text="I refer to Latin words **SOLVE** and **COAGULA** on his arms. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I understand literal translation of these words but it doesn't throw any light of the real designation and sacred meaning of them. All the explanations I found of the web are incoherent, fragmentary and lack credibility, their authors are not confident.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not to mention that all the knowledge about Baphomet himself and history of his emergence in historical sources is very contradictory, even the Wikipedia article is not very trustworthy.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20107" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6028" RevisionGUID="18ba6403-9775-41b2-8ce5-efd41fcd41ba" CreationDate="2019-11-21T05:06:10.680" UserId="6509" Text="What is the meaning of the inscriptions on Baphomet arms?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20108" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6028" RevisionGUID="18ba6403-9775-41b2-8ce5-efd41fcd41ba" CreationDate="2019-11-21T05:06:10.680" UserId="6509" Text="|christianity|mythohistory|interpretation|demons|the-devil|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20109" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6025" RevisionGUID="bfe61aa6-9314-457e-a8ff-7f4b5dc28744" CreationDate="2019-11-21T05:21:47.447" UserId="108" Comment="added 19 characters in body" Text="Once Loki is chained in the cave with a serpent dripping venom over him, he is destined to remain there trough the ages until the day of Ragnarok.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But in other parts of Norse myth, it's made clear that the gods must eat Idun's apples from time to time or they grow old and weak.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How does Loki survive through the ages without eating those apples?  And when Ragnarok finally comes, how is he fit enough to go into battle and kill other gods like Heimdall?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20110" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6029" RevisionGUID="0d2717f9-1f99-4e63-8757-2cbb59f44077" CreationDate="2019-11-21T05:53:22.763" UserId="108" Text="Loki isn't necessarily going without Iðunn's apples. Although it is not specified anywhere, it seems reasonable to assume that his wife [Sigyn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigyn) is feeding him. The [*Gylfaginning*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gylfaginning) states that Loki's torment in the cave is lessened because:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sigyn, his wife, stands near him and holds a basin under the venom-drops; and when the basin is full, she goes and pours out the venom, but in the meantime the venom drips into his face.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Presumably, Sigyn can also bring him the apples. If she's willing to stand there all day keeping the venom from Loki's face most of the time, she's probably happy to keep him youthful." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20112" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6030" RevisionGUID="c4c916e5-44e9-437d-af3c-ce03b32e8c52" CreationDate="2019-11-21T09:31:43.317" UserId="5511" Text="&quot;Solve et coagula&quot; is the principle underlying alchemy: *dissolve* materials to their constituents and re-*assemble* these into something else.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Fulcanelli writes of this quote](http://www.mtanthony13.org/library/Fulcanelli%20-%20The%20Mystery%20of%20the%20Cathedrals.pdf):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; If you know how to dissolve the fixed,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And to make the dissolved fly,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then to fix the flying in powder,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; You have something to console yourself with." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20113" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6031" RevisionGUID="87a85770-f8ca-41d7-b5ce-e759911644f3" CreationDate="2019-11-22T05:40:30.673" UserId="2687" Text="This probably derives from the Greek coinage spagyria, which itself is supposed to come from 'σπάω' and 'ἀγείρω.' These words roughly correspond to &quot;solve&quot; and &quot;coagula,&quot; or divide and join. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This word was used by Paracelsus, perhaps the most famous alchemist. I am using Andrew Weeks' translation, which I believe is from the (original?) German text. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here we can see how Paracelsus spoke of spagyria as involving the reduction of corpora: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Inasmuch as these things are external [i.e., macrocosmic], the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; physician must study them in their external mode and apply the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; concordance in their preparation and distribution, [studying] the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; diseases from visible things and reducing these same corpora&#xD;&#xA;&gt; externally into ultima materia by means of his spagyric art. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If Wikipedia is to be believed, a similar phrase is carved on the coffin of Sir Thomas Browne. In any case, the presence of all these themes in Paracelsus's work basically guarantees that future alchemists would have known about it, and a translation to Latin, which was better known than Greek among classically educated people, is very logical.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Worth noting is that, in Paracelsus and as a consequence for later alchemist, this phrase had a spiritual meaning. I can't find any evidence of the idea that the phrase is short for &quot;solvite corpora et coagula espiritum,&quot; dissolve the body and join the spirit, as is frequently claimed, but the basic idea of coagulating the spirit certainly is present in Paracelsus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Take note in regard to this that the spiritus salis coagulates and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; forms the tartara.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As is the idea that the separation implied by spagyria has a moral or spiritual character. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For this reason you should master alchimia, otherwise known as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; spagyria. It teaches how to separate the false from the just.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am not sure whether this phrase originated with ParacelsuThe search for a universal solvent (alkahest), was a major goal of alchemy since at least Paracelsus. So &quot;solve&quot; would have been very important to alchemists. And since alchemical philosophy demanded symmetry&amp;mdash;as above, so below&amp;mdash;naturally coagulation would be important as well&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; Note that the arm with &quot;solve&quot; points toward heaven, whereas &quot;coagula&quot; points toward earth. Paracelsus spoke of coagulation as being associated with solid, worldly things, and being the foundation of the physical world. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Next, however, comes the congelation of corpus from the salt. This can&#xD;&#xA;&gt; be summed up by saying that without salt there would be nothing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tangible present. For example, it is from the salt that the diamond&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and iron receive their hardness; lead and alabaster their softness,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and so forth. Every congelation, [every] coagulation is from the salt.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For this reason, there is one sal in bones and another in the blood,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and yet another in flesh, and another still in the brain, etc." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20114" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6031" RevisionGUID="77f56a5a-5874-400b-967d-02d269f4d8e8" CreationDate="2019-11-22T05:46:43.957" UserId="2687" Comment="deleted 23 characters in body" Text="This probably derives from the Greek coinage spagyria, which itself is supposed to come from 'σπάω' and 'ἀγείρω.' These words roughly correspond to &quot;solve&quot; and &quot;coagula,&quot; or divide and join. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This word was used by Paracelsus, perhaps the most famous alchemist. I am using Andrew Weeks' translation, which I believe is from the (original?) German text. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here we can see how Paracelsus spoke of spagyria as involving the reduction of corpora: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Inasmuch as these things are external [i.e., macrocosmic], the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; physician must study them in their external mode and apply the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; concordance in their preparation and distribution, [studying] the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; diseases from visible things and reducing these same corpora&#xD;&#xA;&gt; externally into ultima materia by means of his spagyric art. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If Wikipedia is to be believed, a similar phrase is carved on the coffin of Sir Thomas Browne. In any case, the presence of all these themes in Paracelsus's work basically guarantees that future alchemists would have known about it, and a translation to Latin, which was better known than Greek among classically educated people, is very logical.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Worth noting is that, in Paracelsus and as a consequence for later alchemists, this phrase had a spiritual meaning. I can't find any evidence of the idea that the phrase is short for &quot;solvite corpora et coagula espiritum,&quot; dissolve the body and join the spirit, as is frequently claimed, but the basic idea of coagulating the spirit certainly is present in Paracelsus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Take note in regard to this that the spiritus salis coagulates and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; forms the tartara.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As is the idea that the separation implied by spagyria has a moral or spiritual character. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For this reason you should master alchimia, otherwise known as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; spagyria. It teaches how to separate the false from the just.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am not sure whether this phrase originated with Paracelsus. The search for a universal solvent (alkahest), was a major goal of alchemy. So &quot;solve&quot; would have been very important to alchemists. And since alchemical philosophy demanded symmetry&amp;mdash;as above, so below&amp;mdash;naturally coagulation would be important as well&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; Note that the arm with &quot;solve&quot; points toward heaven, whereas &quot;coagula&quot; points toward earth. Paracelsus spoke of coagulation as being associated with solid, worldly things, and being the foundation of the physical world. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Next, however, comes the congelation of corpus from the salt. This can&#xD;&#xA;&gt; be summed up by saying that without salt there would be nothing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tangible present. For example, it is from the salt that the diamond&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and iron receive their hardness; lead and alabaster their softness,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and so forth. Every congelation, [every] coagulation is from the salt.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For this reason, there is one sal in bones and another in the blood,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and yet another in flesh, and another still in the brain, etc." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20115" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6031" RevisionGUID="930a7784-2a30-4977-b291-82020dedc5bb" CreationDate="2019-11-22T06:07:45.717" UserId="2687" Comment="added 331 characters in body" Text="This probably derives from the Greek coinage spagyria, which itself is supposed to come from 'σπάω' and 'ἀγείρω.' These words roughly correspond to &quot;solve&quot; and &quot;coagula,&quot; or divide and join. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This word was used by Paracelsus, perhaps the most famous alchemist. I am using Andrew Weeks' translation, which I believe is from the (original?) German text. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here we can see how Paracelsus spoke of spagyria as involving the reduction of corpora: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Inasmuch as these things are external [i.e., macrocosmic], the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; physician must study them in their external mode and apply the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; concordance in their preparation and distribution, [studying] the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; diseases from visible things and reducing these same corpora&#xD;&#xA;&gt; externally into ultima materia by means of his spagyric art. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If Wikipedia is to be believed, a similar phrase is carved on the coffin of Sir Thomas Browne. In any case, the presence of all these themes in Paracelsus's work basically guarantees that future alchemists would have known about it, and a translation to Latin, which was better known than Greek among classically educated people, is very logical.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Worth noting is that, in Paracelsus and as a consequence for later alchemists, this phrase had a spiritual meaning. I can't find any evidence of the idea that the phrase is short for &quot;solvite corpora et coagula espiritum,&quot; dissolve the body and join the spirit, as is frequently claimed, but the basic idea of coagulating the spirit certainly is present in Paracelsus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Take note in regard to this that the spiritus salis coagulates and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; forms the tartara.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As is the idea that the separation implied by spagyria has a moral or spiritual character. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For this reason you should master alchimia, otherwise known as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; spagyria. It teaches how to separate the false from the just.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am not sure whether this phrase originated with Paracelsus. The search for a universal solvent (alkahest), was a major goal of alchemy. So &quot;solve&quot; would have been very important to alchemists. And since alchemical philosophy demanded symmetry&amp;mdash;as above, so below&amp;mdash;naturally coagulation would be important as well&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; Note that the arm with &quot;solve&quot; points toward heaven, whereas &quot;coagula&quot; points toward earth. Paracelsus spoke of coagulation as being associated with solid, worldly things, and being the foundation of the physical world. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Next, however, comes the congelation of corpus from the salt. This can&#xD;&#xA;&gt; be summed up by saying that without salt there would be nothing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tangible present. For example, it is from the salt that the diamond&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and iron receive their hardness; lead and alabaster their softness,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and so forth. Every congelation, [every] coagulation is from the salt.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For this reason, there is one sal in bones and another in the blood,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and yet another in flesh, and another still in the brain, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So I think in light of Paracelsus, the analogy is kind of clear. Dissolution, associated with the alkahest and the path to the philosopher's stone, points upward and represents spiritual purification. Coagulation, according to Paracelsus the foundation of the physical, points downward and represents the realm of the mundane. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20119" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6033" RevisionGUID="ab6b052e-9aa7-4139-a251-18f961ae8dd3" CreationDate="2019-11-23T22:00:40.050" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20120" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6033" RevisionGUID="ab6b052e-9aa7-4139-a251-18f961ae8dd3" CreationDate="2019-11-23T22:00:40.050" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20121" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6034" RevisionGUID="787b169d-14e0-4d65-b87e-6a365a80ade8" CreationDate="2019-11-23T22:00:40.050" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20122" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6034" RevisionGUID="787b169d-14e0-4d65-b87e-6a365a80ade8" CreationDate="2019-11-23T22:00:40.050" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20123" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6035" RevisionGUID="cb8dcce6-a951-429d-a9d8-35ffd645a8fb" CreationDate="2019-11-23T22:08:52.377" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20124" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6035" RevisionGUID="cb8dcce6-a951-429d-a9d8-35ffd645a8fb" CreationDate="2019-11-23T22:08:52.377" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20125" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6036" RevisionGUID="68add250-6e2f-484a-a87c-3b2281fd2f4b" CreationDate="2019-11-23T22:08:52.377" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20126" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6036" RevisionGUID="68add250-6e2f-484a-a87c-3b2281fd2f4b" CreationDate="2019-11-23T22:08:52.377" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20127" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6037" RevisionGUID="a541693f-55fc-4ff1-ae9b-42c09c58f410" CreationDate="2019-11-23T22:12:44.067" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20128" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6037" RevisionGUID="a541693f-55fc-4ff1-ae9b-42c09c58f410" CreationDate="2019-11-23T22:12:44.067" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20129" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6038" RevisionGUID="448d5e25-8ab7-4ac8-b745-40924fd5b9c1" CreationDate="2019-11-23T22:12:44.067" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20130" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6038" RevisionGUID="448d5e25-8ab7-4ac8-b745-40924fd5b9c1" CreationDate="2019-11-23T22:12:44.067" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20131" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6039" RevisionGUID="2a1d013c-982a-43a0-aaec-3202bd0f8d66" CreationDate="2019-11-24T00:08:12.267" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20132" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6039" RevisionGUID="2a1d013c-982a-43a0-aaec-3202bd0f8d66" CreationDate="2019-11-24T00:08:12.267" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20133" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6040" RevisionGUID="b1f1ee3d-5b49-4434-a841-ce1e078f8448" CreationDate="2019-11-24T00:08:12.267" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20134" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6040" RevisionGUID="b1f1ee3d-5b49-4434-a841-ce1e078f8448" CreationDate="2019-11-24T00:08:12.267" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20137" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5312" RevisionGUID="39c3ff34-2879-4ead-a635-f5a1575f789a" CreationDate="2019-11-24T17:07:37.330" UserId="5431" Comment="added 3 characters in body" Text="&gt; This question has two parts. &#xA;&#xA;&gt; **1. Did Queen Heo exist?**&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any evidence that Queen Heo was a historical figure and not just a legend?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any proof that her [tomb in Korea][1] really houses her body?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Does she appear in the [Samguk Sagi][2] or any other historical records?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is there any archaeological or other tangible evidence for her existence?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; **2. Where did she come from?**&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Is it more likely that she was Indo-Aryan or Tamil (or Thai)?&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xA;&#xA;*Photo from Tomb in Gimhae, Korea, kindly provided by Professor Emeritus KIM Byung-Mo, senior anthropologist from Hanyang University, author of &quot;Heo Hwang-ok Route: From India to Gaya of Korea&quot;*&#xA;&#xA;Queen [Heo Hwang-ok][4] was the wife of King [Suro of Geumgwan Gaya][5] (death 199 AD).&#xA;&#xA;According to the 13th Century [Samguk Yusa (Memorabilia of the Three Kingdoms)][6] Chronicle she was a Princess of the &quot;Ayuta Kingdom&quot;, said to be a distant country. &#xA;&#xA;It is commonly (and [officially][7]) held to refer to [Ayodhya][8], India, but there are no records of this foreign voyage and marriage in Indo-Aryan history. This theory is based on 1. phonetic similarity, and 2. the twin fish symbol, but both theories don't seem to hold up.&#xA;&#xA;In ancient times the city was called [Saketa][9], not Ayodhya, but the later name did exist in Medieval times when the Chronicle was written.&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][10]][10]&#xA;&#xA;The twin fish symbol, as seen here on a gate to the tomb of King Suro, was used as the emblem of his descendants the [Gim clan of Gimhae][11].&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][12]][12]&#xA;&#xA;The Indian state of Uttar Pradesh (which includes the city of Ayodhya) uses twin fish symbology but:&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][13]][13]&#xA;&#xA;This [Emblem of Uttar Pradesh][14] was [designed in 1916][15] by the Royal Society in the United Kingdom for the (then) United Provinces of Agra and Oudh, and the pair of Matsya fish  represented the former Muslim rulers of Oudh. &#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][16]][16]&#xA;&#xA;The [Nawab of Oudh][17] themselves had **a single fish symbol**, but they were an 18th and 19th Century power *(hundreds of years after the Chronicle was written which itself was hundreds of years after the Queen's existence)*.&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][18]][18]&#xA;&#xA;So that theory of Indian *(Indo-Aryan)* origin seems fundamentally flawed.&#xA;&#xA;There are two other theories as to her origin. Either that she came from the [Ayutthaya Kingdom][19] of Thailand -- another theory that seems flawed because the Thai city was not founded until 1350 CE, after the composition of Samguk Yusa. &#xA;&#xA;**Or that she was Tamil**, from [Ayi][20], a vassal state of the [Pandya Kingdom][21] in present-day [Tamil Nadu, India][22]. The area is today's [Kanyakumari][23].&#xA;&#xA;The ancient Tamil [Pandyan Dynasty][24] ruled from 300 BCE–1650 CE and had a [Twin Fish Flag and Emblem][25]:&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][26]][26]&#xA;[![enter image description here][27]][27]&#xA;[![enter image description here][28]][28]&#xA;&#xA;Kanyakumari is said to have been called Ayuta in ancient times, and the Tamil and Korean language and cultures [are said][29] to have commonalities.&#xA;&#xA;It seems most likely to me that the Tamil theory is the strongest.&#xA;&#xA;Was she Tamil or Indo-Aryan?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; **Notes**&#xA;&#xA;&gt; There are quite a few interesting Quora discussions on the topic: [Such as this][30].&#xA;&#xA;&gt; An interesting mitochondrial DNA test from the Royal Gaya tombs is talked about [in this article][31] ([source][32], kindly provided by sempaiscuba◊), showing maternal DNA traceable to South or South East Asian ethnic groups like Indian, Malaysian or Thai.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; “Archaeological evidence indicates that the people of [Tamna][33] [of Jeju Island just under the Southern tip of the Korean Peninsula] were engaging in active trade with Han Dynasty China and Yayoi Japan, South-east-asian nations, with the Tamil Chola dynasty, as well as mainland Korea, by the 1st century AD.” So Tamil-Korean trade links have existed from ancient times.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; [This][34] page showing her tomb mentions expansions on the tomb including that *&quot;with the Tomb of King Suro, the tomb area was expanded in the 28th year of King Sejong’s reign (1446) to include several auxiliary buildings&quot;* and that *&quot;records indicate that the tombs were robbed over a century later during the Imjin War (Japanese Invasion, 1592-1598)&quot;* and *&quot;a headstone and stone tablets erected in 1647 (25th year of King Injo’s reign)&quot;*.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://enjoy-gimhae.org/en/수로왕릉비_영어/?ckattempt=1&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samguk_sagi&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/I6R99.jpg&#xA;  [4]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heo_Hwang-ok&#xA;  [5]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suro_of_Geumgwan_Gaya&#xA;  [6]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samguk_yusa&#xA;  [7]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_of_Heo_Hwang-ok,_Ayodhya&#xA;  [8]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayodhya&#xA;  [9]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saket&#xA;  [10]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/VPAUk.jpg&#xA;  [11]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gim_clan_of_Gimhae&#xA;  [12]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/j9wZp.jpg&#xA;  [13]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/TmVHi.jpg&#xA;  [14]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emblem_of_Uttar_Pradesh&#xA;  [15]: https://m.timesofindia.com/city/lucknow/The-emblem-story/articleshow/201009.cms&#xA;  [16]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/xCfE8.jpg&#xA;  [17]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nawab_of_Awadh&#xA;  [18]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/s5xgn.jpg&#xA;  [19]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayutthaya_Kingdom&#xA;  [20]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ay_kingdom&#xA;  [21]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandya_Kingdom&#xA;  [22]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_Nadu&#xA;  [23]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanyakumari&#xA;  [24]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandyan_dynasty&#xA;  [25]: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Twin_fish_flag_of_Pandyas.svg&#xA;  [26]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/8IXZr.jpg&#xA;  [27]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/mSDpC.jpg&#xA;  [28]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MjDMi.jpg&#xA;  [29]: https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/m.timesofindia.com/city/chennai/Korean-envoy-proud-of-his-Tamil-links/amp_articleshow/53277831.cms&#xA;  [30]: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-relationship-of-Princess-Heo-Hwang-Ok-with-India&#xA;  [31]: https://m.economictimes.com/south-koreans-may-have-indian-genes/amp_articleshow/823181.cms&#xA;  [32]: http://mengnews.joins.com/view.aspx?aid=2457473&#xA;  [33]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamna&#xA;  [34]: http://english.visitkorea.or.kr/enu/ATR/SI_EN_3_1_1_1.jsp?cid=1685172" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20139" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6043" RevisionGUID="40548709-728e-43c5-bf96-c0f1db158c7e" CreationDate="2019-11-25T01:36:36.183" UserId="4152" Text="It is interesting to note that these rivers, as well as other sunken places, are mentioned in Patrick Sims-Williams's *Irish Influence on Medieval Welsh Literature*, p192ff.  (Findable at [Google Books][1].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The chapter mentions other places that seem to have been known dry land locations that had flooded within historical or literary memory (one got [uncovered just this year][2]).  While it seems clear that early authors were aware of land being inundated, I'd not be surprised if there weren't some memories of late glaciation Europe at work here. Both Wales and Ireland were bigger even as late as a few millennia BC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=4QgWDAAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA195&amp;lpg=PA195&amp;dq=river%20%22lli%22%20archen&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=UIcbVPSLuk&amp;sig=ACfU3U0jakR2jF5f_JGiHrEiHv0GgdMu5w&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwj0sKHOl4TmAhXuhOAKHa93ACEQ6AEwAXoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&amp;q=river%20%22lli%22%20archen&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/sunken-kingdom-0011951" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20140" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6044" RevisionGUID="f9f11590-b757-4cbf-a53c-572509238f41" CreationDate="2019-11-25T01:59:40.823" UserId="4152" Text="Towards an answer:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You might look [here][1].  Beke's *Stories From the Edda* may (or may not!) be (all or part of) Snorra Edda. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps better, István Bernáth's *[Skandináv Mitológia][2]* appears to contain an Hungarian translation of Snorra Edda along with scholarly essays and other translations.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://rootsofyggdrasil.wordpress.com/magyar-nyelvu-forrasok-forditasok/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/8861889-skandin-v-mitol-gia" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20142" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5345" RevisionGUID="3a78c368-2744-45af-ac27-e00caf130bda" CreationDate="2019-11-26T20:02:10.323" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="20143" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4579" RevisionGUID="cd6a9950-3da4-4fdf-805d-09ec3ec5b326" CreationDate="2019-11-26T21:02:45.450" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="20144" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4820" RevisionGUID="0fe5034b-4bdd-4431-8c34-3beca1a187fc" CreationDate="2019-11-28T09:02:35.413" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="20145" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6045" RevisionGUID="2821a07d-c597-4430-9de4-9983d08828d9" CreationDate="2019-11-29T12:11:31.013" UserId="6527" Text="Are there any folklore monsters or characters which exist mainly, or specifically, to embody the feeling of regret as it haunts people? I have been unable to find anything myself, although my knowledge in the world of folklore and mythology is somewhat lacking." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20146" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6045" RevisionGUID="2821a07d-c597-4430-9de4-9983d08828d9" CreationDate="2019-11-29T12:11:31.013" UserId="6527" Text="Which folklore beasts/ creatures are representative solely of regret?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20147" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6045" RevisionGUID="2821a07d-c597-4430-9de4-9983d08828d9" CreationDate="2019-11-29T12:11:31.013" UserId="6527" Text="|monsters|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20148" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6046" RevisionGUID="bdbe0b5b-fcf7-466e-b1ee-cf2f5573dae2" CreationDate="2019-11-29T19:58:12.220" UserId="6161" Text="One story stands out to me in particular. Erlik, a deity in Mongol mythology, was either the brother of or created as the first human by the supreme god Ülgen. I read that Erlik [wanted to become equal to Ülgen and supposedly tried to seduce humans to take the forbidden fruit from the first tree][1], and as a result, Erlik was banished to rule over the lower world and assume a position akin to the Christian devil. Was this myth around before Christian influence? In what ways did Mongol mythology change after coming into contact with Christianity?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.encyclopedia.com/environment/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/erlik" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20149" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6046" RevisionGUID="bdbe0b5b-fcf7-466e-b1ee-cf2f5573dae2" CreationDate="2019-11-29T19:58:12.220" UserId="6161" Text="How was Mongol religion influenced by Christianity?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20150" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6046" RevisionGUID="bdbe0b5b-fcf7-466e-b1ee-cf2f5573dae2" CreationDate="2019-11-29T19:58:12.220" UserId="6161" Text="|comparative|the-devil|mongolian-shamanism|christianization|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20151" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6047" RevisionGUID="c932f4c3-db4b-443a-8472-20c8c627e26d" CreationDate="2019-11-30T14:03:55.980" UserId="5511" Text="This &quot;falling from grace&quot; story did not originate with Christianity. Take [Tantalos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantalus) for example, or Zeus banishing Hades to the underworld. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for earlier &quot;fruit-picking&quot; mythology, there's the story of the Monkey King stealing the [peaches of eternal life](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peaches_of_Immortality) from the Jade Palace in Chinese mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20152" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6048" RevisionGUID="a07255af-244b-46ef-93b5-caa35af71364" CreationDate="2019-12-01T21:42:38.757" UserId="6532" Text="Where the gods are killed/overthrown. Ragnarok sort of applies, though there's no replacement of the previous gods." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20153" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6048" RevisionGUID="a07255af-244b-46ef-93b5-caa35af71364" CreationDate="2019-12-01T21:42:38.757" UserId="6532" Text="What succession myths exist other than the Greek one?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20154" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6048" RevisionGUID="a07255af-244b-46ef-93b5-caa35af71364" CreationDate="2019-12-01T21:42:38.757" UserId="6532" Text="|greek|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20155" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6013" RevisionGUID="e8a8d11d-3ad2-4ac2-b6f9-d63bc54c5674" CreationDate="2019-12-01T22:55:09.290" UserId="6376" Comment="made theoi.com into a hyperlink" Text="I've been very impressed by the online archive of classical texts at [theoi.com][1], and have been using it to verify dubious-sounding claims from e.g. Robert Graves against the text of the myths themselves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, sometimes, theoi will cite a &quot;scholiast&quot; as a source for its information - for example &quot;Schol. ad Theocrit&quot; (Scholiast of Theocritus). Printed references, like Smith's &quot;Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology&quot; also sometimes cite these. And while the text of the myths is hosted on theoi to check against, I cannot find the scholia anywhere, either on that site or on the wider Internet!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is mostly a request for information on where to find English translations of the scholia. But if these translations generally don't exist - if the scholars tend to work from the original Greek and Latin texts of these, for example - then please let me know. I really don't want to spend too long fruitlessly searching for e.g. &quot;Schol. ad Apollon. Rhod&quot; (which AFAICT is actually a scholiast on his Argonautica!)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.theoi.com/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20156" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="6013" RevisionGUID="e8a8d11d-3ad2-4ac2-b6f9-d63bc54c5674" CreationDate="2019-12-01T22:55:09.290" Comment="Proposed by 6376 approved by 53, 1317 edit id of 1777" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20158" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6050" RevisionGUID="04967051-7389-4d6b-ad9f-e1bfffc25147" CreationDate="2019-12-02T19:39:56.040" UserId="2892" Text="I've been wracking my brain but can't think of any examples of ancient mythologies that involve time travel.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*This is necessarily a short answer as no examples are given.*" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20159" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6051" RevisionGUID="535fabf7-87ab-4579-84c7-32a131119d53" CreationDate="2019-12-03T06:00:39.237" UserId="6535" Text="When I was in Greece recently, almost everyone I met (writers, politicians, common people) believe that Heracles was a real person. One of Hippocrates' forefathers was Heracles (from his mother's lineage) -- according to ancient sources, they say. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The name and image of Heracles seems to be found everywhere, including in archeological findings, ancient texts, oral folklore. His two sons participated as doctors of the Greek army, at the siege of Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, some ancient towns or villages bear Heracles' name in Europe. Could we approximate when this mythological figure lived in reality?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20160" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6051" RevisionGUID="535fabf7-87ab-4579-84c7-32a131119d53" CreationDate="2019-12-03T06:00:39.237" UserId="6535" Text="Issues with the temporality of Heracles" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20161" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6051" RevisionGUID="535fabf7-87ab-4579-84c7-32a131119d53" CreationDate="2019-12-03T06:00:39.237" UserId="6535" Text="|greek|hercules|mythohistory|trojan-war|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20162" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6051" RevisionGUID="8bcf0110-dc63-49d4-8e59-147de350494f" CreationDate="2019-12-03T06:06:08.610" UserId="6535" Comment="deleted 77 characters in body" Text="When I was in Greece recently, almost everyone I met (writers, politicians, common people) believe that Heracles was a real person. One of Hippocrates' forefathers was Heracles (from his mother's lineage) -- according to ancient sources, they say. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The name and image of Heracles seems to be found everywhere, including in archeological findings, ancient texts, oral folklore. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, some ancient towns or villages bear Heracles' name in Europe. Could we approximate when this mythological figure lived in reality?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20163" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6052" RevisionGUID="93a6df13-5011-40a4-bc03-a1f5fcf49b86" CreationDate="2019-12-03T23:53:37.930" UserId="6167" Text="There is a theory that over the course of the evolution of Norse mythology this has actually happened - Tyr, god of justice, is theorized to have been the previous head of the pantheon, and had Christianity not interrupted, the same thing may have happened again. There is a mention on Ragnarok that Heimdall becomes head of a 'new' pantheon, or at least the principle god, however taking that at face value is tricky due to the source being filtered through a Christian worldview (ie. compiled by a monk). This does make some sense since all these gods are the ones missing a part of them- eye, hand and ear iirc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is [a paper][1] I found written about cyclical vs. linear mythologies, which cites several cultures, however it's more in reference to humanity ending rather than gods. The author cites Hopi, Mayan and Hindu mythology, but I don't know enough about those to really discuss them. I found the paper by searching 'cyclical mythology', you may find more with a variation on that. Most of the results do seem to relate to Norse or Greek mythology though.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://hilo.hawaii.edu/campuscenter/hohonu/volumes/documents/TheEndofDays-TalesofApocalypseAcrossTimeandSpaceArielMoniz.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20164" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5157" RevisionGUID="3348c1fb-e561-417b-bad7-bb29dbd952ff" CreationDate="2019-12-04T19:56:15.520" UserDisplayName="user5459" Comment="edited title" Text="Any ancient myths/folklore/tales/etc. about extraterrestrial voyages of people/other beings?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20165" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5157" RevisionGUID="e08cce92-0c4d-41dc-83af-886406750f98" CreationDate="2019-12-04T20:05:03.200" UserDisplayName="user5459" Comment="deleted 27 characters in body; edited title" Text="Stories like the tale of the bamboo cutter that are about extraterrestrial beings who visit earth and either return to their place of origin or not. They can also be about people from earth visiting the moon or other planets (such as Lucian's True Story) and either returning or not returning to earth. Are there any?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20166" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5157" RevisionGUID="e08cce92-0c4d-41dc-83af-886406750f98" CreationDate="2019-12-04T20:05:03.200" UserDisplayName="user5459" Comment="deleted 27 characters in body; edited title" Text="Any ancient myths/folklore/tales/etc. about extraterrestrial voyages or even about voyages towards earth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20168" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6053" RevisionGUID="50954008-5f5d-4812-9fd0-10c69fce4148" CreationDate="2019-12-07T08:44:22.000" UserId="5511" Text="From Wikipedia:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A Euhemerist reading of the widespread Heracles cult was attributed to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a historical figure who had been offered cult status after his death.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thus Eusebius, Preparation of the Gospel (10.12), reported that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Clement could offer historical dates for Hercules as a king in Argos:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;from the reign of Hercules in Argos to the deification of Hercules&#xD;&#xA;&gt; himself and of Asclepius there are comprised thirty-eight years,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; according to Apollodorus the chronicler: and from that point to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; deification of Castor and Pollux fifty-three years: and somewhere&#xD;&#xA;&gt; about this time was the capture of Troy.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Readers with a literalist bent, following Clement's reasoning, have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; asserted from this remark that, since Heracles ruled over Tiryns in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Argos at the same time that Eurystheus ruled over Mycenae, and since&#xD;&#xA;&gt; at about this time Linus was Heracles' teacher, one can conclude,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; based on Jerome's date—in his universal history, his Chronicon—given&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to Linus' notoriety in teaching Heracles in 1264 BCE, that Heracles'&#xD;&#xA;&gt; death and deification occurred 38 years later, in approximately 1226&#xD;&#xA;&gt; BCE.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As to the town names, the name Herakles (Pride of Hera) is still in use as a first name in many European languages influenced by either Greek or Latin:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Naming places after people][2] has been a common practice throughout history. It stands to reason not all Herakles-named places originate from a singular person, mythological or not.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/NtCfv.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_places_named_after_people" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20170" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6054" RevisionGUID="b2c670f4-db3a-455e-bd43-eeb8d343c4a5" CreationDate="2019-12-08T17:19:08.497" UserId="4142" Text="A &lt;a href=&quot;https://arxiv.org/abs/1903.07393&quot;&gt;recent work&lt;/a&gt; proposed that &lt;a href=&quot;https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Newgrange#/media/File:Flickr_-_bastique_-_Entrance_stone_at_Newgrange_(1).jpg&quot;&gt;the double spiral motif&lt;/a&gt; found at &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newgrange&quot;&gt;Newgrange&lt;/a&gt; (ca. 3200 BC) is a calendrical representation. Looking south the northern peoples observed that the arc traced by the sun widens steadily from winter solstice to midsummer. A natural  supposition is that what is actually observed is just a part of a spiral, its lower half being hidden below the horizon.  This seems to be strikingly original in contrast with our habit to think about circles. The author mentions just two refs from the 1980's (M.Brennan 1983, N.L. Thomas, 1988), where this interpretation has been made. Besides vague generalisations, such as &quot;solar motif&quot;, are there earlier mentions of the idea as explained along the lines given here? (No answer yet at the HSM site)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20171" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6054" RevisionGUID="b2c670f4-db3a-455e-bd43-eeb8d343c4a5" CreationDate="2019-12-08T17:19:08.497" UserId="4142" Text="Spirals as calendrical representations (from HSM)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20172" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6054" RevisionGUID="b2c670f4-db3a-455e-bd43-eeb8d343c4a5" CreationDate="2019-12-08T17:19:08.497" UserId="4142" Text="|interpretation|calendar-dates|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20176" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5800" RevisionGUID="0f217748-1cc1-4fa3-bb12-c223ddea5eef" CreationDate="2019-12-11T00:02:35.527" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="20177" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6056" RevisionGUID="c8d99c59-17df-4c42-a2f7-6a0503fc6110" CreationDate="2019-12-11T00:28:00.403" UserId="6546" Text="personally I think that Excalibur and Caliburn are the same sword but... I think Excalibur is the reforged Caliburn&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Caliburn was the sword in the stone then when Arthur broke it Merlin took it to the Lady of the Lake to make it whole again. So Caliburn got reforged into Excalibur" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20178" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4624" RevisionGUID="5fa4b38e-172c-404c-9468-ed3ff9c3fcec" CreationDate="2019-12-11T07:48:01.873" UserId="5726" Comment="added 226 characters in body" Text="For questions pertaining changelings human-like creatures found in folklore and folk religion throughout Europe. A changeling was believed to be a fairy child that had been left in place of a human child stolen by the fairies." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20179" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4624" RevisionGUID="5fa4b38e-172c-404c-9468-ed3ff9c3fcec" CreationDate="2019-12-11T07:48:01.873" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 2774, 108 edit id of 1773" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20180" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6034" RevisionGUID="a93196d2-8d57-4c8c-851b-570f4db3fe1d" CreationDate="2019-12-11T07:48:04.567" UserId="5726" Comment="added 220 characters in body" Text="One of three ancient Greek tragedians whose plays have survived.  Best known for  Ajax, Antigone, Women of Trachis, Oedipus Rex, Electra, Philoctetes and Oedipus at Colonus. The first playwright to add a third character." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20181" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="6034" RevisionGUID="a93196d2-8d57-4c8c-851b-570f4db3fe1d" CreationDate="2019-12-11T07:48:04.567" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 2774, 108 edit id of 1771" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20182" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6036" RevisionGUID="48164a5c-2f64-4929-8871-118596cce0ca" CreationDate="2019-12-11T07:48:07.290" UserId="5726" Comment="added 374 characters in body" Text="Ancient Egyptian god of fertility, alcohol, agriculture, the afterlife, the dead, resurrection, life, and vegetation. His brother, Setesh, cut him up into pieces after killing him, Isis, his wife, found all the pieces and wrapped his body up.  As ruler of the dead, Osiris was also sometimes called &quot;king of the living&quot; as he is the first god-king of Earth in ancient Egypt." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20183" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="6036" RevisionGUID="48164a5c-2f64-4929-8871-118596cce0ca" CreationDate="2019-12-11T07:48:07.290" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 2774, 108 edit id of 1772" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20184" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6040" RevisionGUID="2966beab-3133-46c4-ada7-f4ea9672293e" CreationDate="2019-12-11T07:48:09.787" UserId="5726" Comment="added 88 characters in body" Text="&#xD;&#xA;For questions about Ares the Olympian god of war, battlelust, courage and civil order." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20185" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="6040" RevisionGUID="2966beab-3133-46c4-ada7-f4ea9672293e" CreationDate="2019-12-11T07:48:09.787" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 2774, 108 edit id of 1776" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20186" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6038" RevisionGUID="b6f150db-76be-497a-bc0a-5be62ee27761" CreationDate="2019-12-11T07:48:12.383" UserId="5726" Comment="added 244 characters in body" Text="For questions pertaining the conversion of individuals to Christianity or the conversion of entire groups at once. Various strategies and techniques were employed in Christianization campaigns from Late Antiquity and throughout the Middle Ages." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20187" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="6038" RevisionGUID="b6f150db-76be-497a-bc0a-5be62ee27761" CreationDate="2019-12-11T07:48:12.383" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 2774, 108 edit id of 1774" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20188" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4616" RevisionGUID="b13204c8-8d78-4c70-90b7-754b748e8e84" CreationDate="2019-12-11T07:48:14.973" UserId="5726" Comment="added 106 characters in body" Text="Commonly known by his pen name Dante Alighieri or simply as Dante. Author of the divine comedy (Comedìa). " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20189" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4616" RevisionGUID="b13204c8-8d78-4c70-90b7-754b748e8e84" CreationDate="2019-12-11T07:48:14.973" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 2774, 108 edit id of 1775" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20191" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="6056" RevisionGUID="11c7c430-738f-4ff1-a654-3a4e994757de" CreationDate="2019-12-11T07:48:56.520" UserId="108" Comment="95" />
  <row Id="20193" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6058" RevisionGUID="954fe0db-5bcd-4fa6-87e3-b03cf7469ab7" CreationDate="2019-12-11T20:40:22.500" UserId="5726" Text="In most branches of Christianity, there are choirs, solo song or even Christian rockbands.  I remember reading that in the case of Christianity most people where illiterate when they started making psalms, hymns and songs.(before making stained glass to even make the visual part taken care of).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is Christianity the first to incorporate this so widely into their religious structure? If not my question would be which would be the first? And as a bonus is there any record of this First Song (or lyrics)?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20194" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6058" RevisionGUID="954fe0db-5bcd-4fa6-87e3-b03cf7469ab7" CreationDate="2019-12-11T20:40:22.500" UserId="5726" Text="What is the oldest known religious song/chant?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20195" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6058" RevisionGUID="954fe0db-5bcd-4fa6-87e3-b03cf7469ab7" CreationDate="2019-12-11T20:40:22.500" UserId="5726" Text="|christianity|origins|abrahamic-religions|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20196" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6059" RevisionGUID="02a2ab85-16ca-4e6d-a17b-6bbce07565fd" CreationDate="2019-12-11T23:20:20.833" UserId="1317" Text="Religious song is likely as old as religion.  But singing is one thing, writing it down is another.  Proving it's a &quot;song&quot; requires some sort of musical notation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The so-called &quot;[Hurrian Songs&quot;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurrian_songs)&quot; come from  some cuneiform tablets discovered in the ruins of ancient Ugarit. Dated to the 14th century BCE, the tablets were first translated as music in 1972 by Anne Draffkorn Kilmer, professor of Assyriology at the University of California.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The tablet below shows a song to the Canaanite goddes [Nikkal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikkal):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; ![Hurrian song tablet](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/Hurritische_hymne.gif)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Source: Wikimedia Commons, public domian)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can listen to the song [here](https://youtu.be/tAc2KDNHEw4)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20197" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6059" RevisionGUID="3e326cfa-947d-4d30-b1c2-df50ec97d149" CreationDate="2019-12-11T23:48:07.353" UserId="1317" Comment="Elaborating " Text="Religious song is likely as old as religion. The [Standard of Ur](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_of_Ur) dated to the 26th century BCE,  shows someone playing a harp:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;.![Standard of Ur](https://i.stack.imgur.com/X5chB.jpg)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Source: Wikimedia Commons,  public domain, my highlighting). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But singing is one thing, writing it down is another.  Proving it's a &quot;song&quot; requires some sort of musical notation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The so-called &quot;[Hurrian Songs&quot;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurrian_songs)&quot; come from  some cuneiform tablets discovered in the ruins of ancient Ugarit in the 1950s. Dated to the 14th century BCE, the tablets were first translated as music in 1972 by Anne Draffkorn Kilmer, professor of Assyriology at the University of California.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The tablet below shows a song to the Canaanite goddes [Nikkal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikkal):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; ![Hurrian song tablet](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/Hurritische_hymne.gif)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Source: Wikimedia Commons, public domian)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can listen to the song [here](https://youtu.be/tAc2KDNHEw4)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20198" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6059" RevisionGUID="f4064fef-4749-4b18-a9d8-79d2db902b97" CreationDate="2019-12-11T23:56:13.940" UserId="1317" Comment="added 8 characters in body" Text="Religious song is likely as old as religion or song. The [Standard of Ur](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_of_Ur) dated to the 26th century BCE,  shows someone playing a harp:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;.![Standard of Ur](https://i.stack.imgur.com/X5chB.jpg)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Source: Wikimedia Commons,  public domain, my highlighting). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But singing is one thing, writing it down is another.  Proving it's a &quot;song&quot; requires some sort of musical notation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The so-called &quot;[Hurrian Songs&quot;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurrian_songs)&quot; come from  some cuneiform tablets discovered in the ruins of ancient Ugarit in the 1950s. Dated to the 14th century BCE, the tablets were first translated as music in 1972 by Anne Draffkorn Kilmer, professor of Assyriology at the University of California.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The tablet below shows a song to the Canaanite goddes [Nikkal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikkal):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; ![Hurrian song tablet](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/Hurritische_hymne.gif)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Source: Wikimedia Commons, public domian)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can listen to the song [here](https://youtu.be/tAc2KDNHEw4)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20200" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5157" RevisionGUID="6d2258de-f8b2-4175-b213-7d897ae7cfe6" CreationDate="2019-12-12T19:49:45.497" UserDisplayName="user5459" Comment="edited title" Text="Any ancient myths/folklore/tales/etc. about extraterrestrial voyages/beings or even about voyages towards earth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20201" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6060" RevisionGUID="163b3535-8efe-41dd-91e1-979ebafe85aa" CreationDate="2019-12-14T10:38:42.423" UserId="5511" Text="phantom has its roots in Greek and came to Middle English through Old French&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;ghost comes from proto-Germanic and survives in most Germanic languages. In Flemish, for example, we have no commonly used equivalent to phantom (there's one in the dictionary but nobody uses it)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Etymologically, these represent two very different concepts. The Greek φάντασμα originally derives from φᾰντᾰ́ζω (phantázō, “make visible”) +‎ -μᾰ (-ma).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;gast shares the same root as the Old English verb gæstan &quot;to frighten&quot;. It's the West Germanic word for &quot;supernatural being.&quot; In Christian writing in Old English it is used to render Latin spiritus. Sense of &quot;disembodied spirit of a dead person,&quot; especially imagined as wandering among the living or haunting them, is attested from late 14c. and returns the word toward its likely prehistoric sense.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/fyZeh.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/vBT48.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20202" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6061" RevisionGUID="dc2e7e1f-2cbc-4235-b02d-1a8522f3ee44" CreationDate="2019-12-14T11:06:10.640" UserId="5511" Text="Succession myths are probably as old as religion itself. The oldest surviving written religious myths we know are of Mesopotamia and Egypt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Mesopotamian mythology, the god [Anu] is overthrown by his son [Kumarbi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumarbi).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Ancient Egyptian mythology, [Seth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_(deity)) is overthrown by his nephew [Horus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horus)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the cyclic mythologies that @fifthviolet mentions, I can only give some idea of how this is perceived by its practitioners for Hinduism. In the [Trimuti](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimurti) cycle of creation (Brahma), Maintaining (Vishnu) and destruction (Shiva), these 3 deities are not really thought of as in succession of each other, but more as Avatars of one and the same manifestation. In certain branches of Hinduism, these 3 can actually manifest together in one &quot;person&quot; called [Dattatreya](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dattatreya)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20203" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6059" RevisionGUID="36586a32-7ac8-48ce-9c09-7dae709f1b6c" CreationDate="2019-12-14T15:09:14.520" UserId="1317" Comment="added 338 characters in body" Text="Religious song is likely as old as religion or song. The [Standard of Ur](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_of_Ur) dated to the 26th century BCE,  shows someone playing a harp:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;.![Standard of Ur](https://i.stack.imgur.com/X5chB.jpg)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Source: Wikimedia Commons,  public domain, my highlighting). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hymns to the Sumerian gods were written down in poetic form during the [Early Dynastic Period](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Dynastic_Period_(Mesopotamia)) of ancient Sumer. The [Kesh Temple Hymn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kesh_temple_hymn) was found on clay tablets excavated at Nippur and dated to the 26th century BCE. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But singing is one thing, writing it down is another.  Proving it's a &quot;song&quot; requires some sort of musical notation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The so-called &quot;[Hurrian Songs&quot;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurrian_songs)&quot; come from  some cuneiform tablets discovered in the ruins of ancient Ugarit in the 1950s. Dated to the 14th century BCE, the tablets were first translated as music in 1972 by Anne Draffkorn Kilmer, professor of Assyriology at the University of California.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The tablet below shows a song to the Canaanite goddes [Nikkal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikkal):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; ![Hurrian song tablet](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/Hurritische_hymne.gif)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Source: Wikimedia Commons, public domian)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can listen to the song [here](https://youtu.be/tAc2KDNHEw4)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20204" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6059" RevisionGUID="6f2f9040-491c-4763-9c9e-c28fd8ec9cb2" CreationDate="2019-12-14T15:34:46.387" UserId="1317" Comment="added 78 characters in body" Text="Religious song is likely as old as religion or song. The [Standard of Ur](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_of_Ur) dated to the 26th century BCE,  shows someone playing a harp:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;.![Standard of Ur](https://i.stack.imgur.com/X5chB.jpg)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Source: Wikimedia Commons,  public domain, my highlighting). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hymns to the Sumerian gods were written down in poetic form during the [Early Dynastic Period](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Dynastic_Period_(Mesopotamia)) of ancient Sumer. The [Kesh Temple Hymn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kesh_temple_hymn) was found on clay tablets excavated at Nippur and dated to the 26th century BCE. ([English translation here](http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section4/tr4802.htm))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But singing is one thing, writing it down is another.  Proving it's a &quot;song&quot; requires some sort of musical notation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The so-called &quot;[Hurrian Songs&quot;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurrian_songs)&quot; come from  some cuneiform tablets discovered in the ruins of ancient Ugarit in the 1950s. Dated to the 14th century BCE, the tablets were first translated as music in 1972 by Anne Draffkorn Kilmer, professor of Assyriology at the University of California.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The tablet below shows a song to the Canaanite goddes [Nikkal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikkal):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; ![Hurrian song tablet](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/Hurritische_hymne.gif)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Source: Wikimedia Commons, public domian)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can listen to the song [here](https://youtu.be/tAc2KDNHEw4)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20205" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6059" RevisionGUID="2a4efdb7-2424-43b6-a3cd-a4627a95cffd" CreationDate="2019-12-14T16:26:41.920" UserId="1317" Comment="added 50 characters in body" Text="Religious song is likely as old as religion or song. The [Standard of Ur](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_of_Ur) dated to the 26th century BCE,  shows someone playing a harp:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;.![Standard of Ur](https://i.stack.imgur.com/X5chB.jpg)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Source: Wikimedia Commons,  public domain, my highlighting). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hymns to the Sumerian gods were written down in poetic form during the [Early Dynastic Period](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Dynastic_Period_(Mesopotamia)) of ancient Sumer. The [Kesh Temple Hymn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kesh_temple_hymn) was found on clay tablets excavated at Nippur and dated to the 26th century BCE. ([English translation here](http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section4/tr4802.htm))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But singing is one thing, writing it down is another.  Proving it's a &quot;song&quot; requires some sort of [musical notation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_notation). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The so-called &quot;[Hurrian Songs&quot;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurrian_songs)&quot; come from  some cuneiform tablets discovered in the ruins of ancient Ugarit in the 1950s. Dated to the 14th century BCE, the tablets were first translated as music in 1972 by Anne Draffkorn Kilmer, professor of Assyriology at the University of California.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The tablet below shows a song to the Canaanite goddes [Nikkal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikkal):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; ![Hurrian song tablet](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/Hurritische_hymne.gif)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Source: Wikimedia Commons, public domian)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can listen to the song [here](https://youtu.be/tAc2KDNHEw4)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20209" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6063" RevisionGUID="e7d17259-b693-4d34-805c-36b3e0ec63c3" CreationDate="2019-12-15T21:19:36.747" UserId="5604" Text="All major religions today are byproducts of the Mysteries of Eleusis, which is why they all smell alike.  The prehistoric hunter gatherer calendar was based on either of two systems:  the constellations of the ecliptic plane or the constellations of the galactic plane.  The creatures represented in either culture's pantheon come from those astrological origins.  For many years the Axial Period was thought to be the turning point when these cultures blended but recently the process appears to be more erratic and the merging process more complicated.  [The Index of Deities and Demons][1] describes the earliest known ecliptic system from Upper Paleo France (Chauvet and Lascaux).  Judith Dillon's [FUTHARK RUNES MYSTERY TRADITIONS 2][2]  describes the Celtic galactic system and its roots well.  [Macbain's][3] Celtic Mythology and Religion describes a blended system.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://hcommons.org/deposits/item/hc:23075/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://FUTHARK%20RUNES%20MYSTERY%20TRADITIONS%202&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&amp;rct=j&amp;q=&amp;esrc=s&amp;source=web&amp;cd=15&amp;cad=rja&amp;uact=8&amp;ved=2ahUKEwjx8t2xyLjmAhV5CTQIHUfjAP0QFjAOegQICBAB&amp;url=https%3A%2F%2Farchive.org%2Fstream%2FCeltic_Mythology_And_Religion_-_A_Macbain%2FCeltic_Mythology_And_Religion_-_A_Macbain_djvu.txt&amp;usg=AOvVaw3tD2fvKEovqKJzVboaxP16" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20210" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6064" RevisionGUID="6537afc9-2853-4a64-bfdc-fcc6698380ca" CreationDate="2019-12-16T08:42:58.243" UserId="6555" Text="Sadly most of the recast here are based on somebody's wild theories without referring to the translation from the thousands of ancient tablets of sumerian, akkadian, assyrian and babylonian. Hebrew bible is known to copy from babylonian, during the hebrew in captivity. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20211" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6065" RevisionGUID="bfbdf7e6-46d3-45b6-8c3c-3412bedfc0e7" CreationDate="2019-12-17T04:33:10.947" UserId="6556" Text="Is there anything in any mythologys that depicts a human that's eyes turn yellow an scare spirits an other supernatural beings I have been asked to find on for a close friend but haven't been able to find anything any help is appreciated " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20212" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6065" RevisionGUID="bfbdf7e6-46d3-45b6-8c3c-3412bedfc0e7" CreationDate="2019-12-17T04:33:10.947" UserId="6556" Text="mythologys concerning people with eyes that can turn yellow" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20213" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6065" RevisionGUID="bfbdf7e6-46d3-45b6-8c3c-3412bedfc0e7" CreationDate="2019-12-17T04:33:10.947" UserId="6556" Text="|mythical-creatures|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20214" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6066" RevisionGUID="4fc2de0f-ee6e-4781-9980-96c84b88b5e4" CreationDate="2019-12-17T19:22:04.710" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20215" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6066" RevisionGUID="4fc2de0f-ee6e-4781-9980-96c84b88b5e4" CreationDate="2019-12-17T19:22:04.710" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20216" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6067" RevisionGUID="c89edf35-ec39-4bba-8f6c-2da856b11e96" CreationDate="2019-12-17T19:22:04.710" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20217" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6067" RevisionGUID="c89edf35-ec39-4bba-8f6c-2da856b11e96" CreationDate="2019-12-17T19:22:04.710" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20218" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6068" RevisionGUID="60b67478-948c-4440-8658-66f79e6fafc5" CreationDate="2019-12-17T19:25:17.000" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20219" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6068" RevisionGUID="60b67478-948c-4440-8658-66f79e6fafc5" CreationDate="2019-12-17T19:25:17.000" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20220" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6069" RevisionGUID="decfd465-01e6-4fee-a5b1-133250c2881b" CreationDate="2019-12-17T19:25:17.000" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20221" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6069" RevisionGUID="decfd465-01e6-4fee-a5b1-133250c2881b" CreationDate="2019-12-17T19:25:17.000" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20222" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6070" RevisionGUID="9ff14371-94cc-4594-a26c-0a7aac78190c" CreationDate="2019-12-17T19:26:51.630" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20223" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6070" RevisionGUID="9ff14371-94cc-4594-a26c-0a7aac78190c" CreationDate="2019-12-17T19:26:51.630" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20224" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6071" RevisionGUID="7702d287-09c8-4c66-9e25-1dbb1f572245" CreationDate="2019-12-17T19:26:51.630" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20225" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6071" RevisionGUID="7702d287-09c8-4c66-9e25-1dbb1f572245" CreationDate="2019-12-17T19:26:51.630" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20226" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6072" RevisionGUID="0c51fa2b-4237-4ad8-a14c-0592210854c4" CreationDate="2019-12-17T19:28:14.117" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20227" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6072" RevisionGUID="0c51fa2b-4237-4ad8-a14c-0592210854c4" CreationDate="2019-12-17T19:28:14.117" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20228" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6073" RevisionGUID="863701ad-b308-4052-980e-53f54ae7df62" CreationDate="2019-12-17T19:28:14.117" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20229" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6073" RevisionGUID="863701ad-b308-4052-980e-53f54ae7df62" CreationDate="2019-12-17T19:28:14.117" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20231" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6071" RevisionGUID="eb56a00b-ea1b-4d0f-a87a-d51a89fb92c4" CreationDate="2019-12-18T04:19:12.367" UserId="5726" Comment="added 88 characters in body" Text="the Olympian god of fire, smiths, craftsmen, metalworking, stonemasonry, and sculpture. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20232" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="6071" RevisionGUID="eb56a00b-ea1b-4d0f-a87a-d51a89fb92c4" CreationDate="2019-12-18T04:19:12.367" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 108 edit id of 1781" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20233" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1247" RevisionGUID="80117e21-bd9f-4196-9216-2f8ded4dfe94" CreationDate="2019-12-18T04:19:15.193" UserId="5726" Comment="added 121 characters in body" Text="an Abrahamic, monotheistic religion teaching that there is only one God (Allah), and that Muhammad is a messenger of God." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20234" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1247" RevisionGUID="80117e21-bd9f-4196-9216-2f8ded4dfe94" CreationDate="2019-12-18T04:19:15.193" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 108 edit id of 1779" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20235" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6067" RevisionGUID="1ffab231-4177-4fc1-a264-518a99417059" CreationDate="2019-12-18T04:19:17.767" UserId="5726" Comment="added 374 characters in body" Text="An American Professor of Literature at Sarah Lawrence College who worked in comparative mythology and comparative religion. His work covers many aspects of the human experience. Campbell's most well-known work is his book The Hero with a Thousand Faces, in which he discusses his theory of the journey of the archetypal hero shared by world mythologies, termed the monomyth." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20236" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="6067" RevisionGUID="1ffab231-4177-4fc1-a264-518a99417059" CreationDate="2019-12-18T04:19:17.767" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 108 edit id of 1778" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20237" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6073" RevisionGUID="eb8365a4-11f2-4d54-b3f2-f4f437bc0202" CreationDate="2019-12-18T04:19:20.273" UserId="5726" Comment="added 112 characters in body" Text="A monstrous storm-giant who laid siege to heaven but was defeated by Zeus and imprisoned in the pit of Tartaros." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20238" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="6073" RevisionGUID="eb8365a4-11f2-4d54-b3f2-f4f437bc0202" CreationDate="2019-12-18T04:19:20.273" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 108 edit id of 1782" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20239" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6069" RevisionGUID="534b12b6-5b54-479f-a660-1605de6d721e" CreationDate="2019-12-18T04:19:22.920" UserId="5726" Comment="added 232 characters in body" Text="a 19th-century work of epic poetry compiled by Elias Lönnrot from Karelian and Finnish oral folklore and mythology. Regarded as the national epic of Karelia and Finland and is one of the most significant works of Finnish literature." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20240" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="6069" RevisionGUID="534b12b6-5b54-479f-a660-1605de6d721e" CreationDate="2019-12-18T04:19:22.920" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 108 edit id of 1780" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20241" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6065" RevisionGUID="708fb863-1223-476c-92ec-86b2efba54e3" CreationDate="2019-12-18T04:21:40.437" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 86 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Is there anything in any mythology that depicts humans whose eyes can change colour to be yellow? Perhaps to scare spirits or other supernatural beings?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20242" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="6065" RevisionGUID="708fb863-1223-476c-92ec-86b2efba54e3" CreationDate="2019-12-18T04:21:40.437" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 86 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Myths with people whose eyes can turn yellow?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20243" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="6065" RevisionGUID="708fb863-1223-476c-92ec-86b2efba54e3" CreationDate="2019-12-18T04:21:40.437" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 86 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|untagged|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20245" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="6064" RevisionGUID="cb5240d1-ffa9-46df-b834-07e86f5cdc4d" CreationDate="2019-12-18T04:22:10.603" UserId="108" Comment="96" />
  <row Id="20246" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6074" RevisionGUID="a7089968-5b82-4259-95e9-9b353d93f226" CreationDate="2019-12-18T17:49:27.640" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20247" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6074" RevisionGUID="a7089968-5b82-4259-95e9-9b353d93f226" CreationDate="2019-12-18T17:49:27.640" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20248" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6075" RevisionGUID="ccda379c-ff8c-4d5d-ad0b-7fd897b3275f" CreationDate="2019-12-18T17:49:27.640" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20249" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6075" RevisionGUID="ccda379c-ff8c-4d5d-ad0b-7fd897b3275f" CreationDate="2019-12-18T17:49:27.640" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20250" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6076" RevisionGUID="e0121086-944d-4df1-b518-42ec6b274616" CreationDate="2019-12-18T17:50:21.313" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20251" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6076" RevisionGUID="e0121086-944d-4df1-b518-42ec6b274616" CreationDate="2019-12-18T17:50:21.313" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20252" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6077" RevisionGUID="9b322d78-7bc4-4c2d-9f4b-b5e76d7ff593" CreationDate="2019-12-18T17:50:21.313" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20253" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6077" RevisionGUID="9b322d78-7bc4-4c2d-9f4b-b5e76d7ff593" CreationDate="2019-12-18T17:50:21.313" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20254" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6078" RevisionGUID="bf3936d7-495f-4c7d-9f1c-78a445921cf0" CreationDate="2019-12-18T17:53:36.013" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20255" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6078" RevisionGUID="bf3936d7-495f-4c7d-9f1c-78a445921cf0" CreationDate="2019-12-18T17:53:36.013" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20256" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6079" RevisionGUID="8934e2bd-b69d-4eda-ab32-0a2257bc7de1" CreationDate="2019-12-18T17:53:36.013" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20257" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6079" RevisionGUID="8934e2bd-b69d-4eda-ab32-0a2257bc7de1" CreationDate="2019-12-18T17:53:36.013" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20258" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6080" RevisionGUID="a90e2f0f-4b87-4db6-8097-ae8a4a219341" CreationDate="2019-12-18T17:55:08.267" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20259" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6080" RevisionGUID="a90e2f0f-4b87-4db6-8097-ae8a4a219341" CreationDate="2019-12-18T17:55:08.267" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20260" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6081" RevisionGUID="f92f053b-7a04-4b4f-9a5a-c845d5cc4942" CreationDate="2019-12-18T17:55:08.267" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20261" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6081" RevisionGUID="f92f053b-7a04-4b4f-9a5a-c845d5cc4942" CreationDate="2019-12-18T17:55:08.267" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20262" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6082" RevisionGUID="0b4340f4-cfa7-4ee1-9bcf-bd53fc09d63e" CreationDate="2019-12-18T17:55:44.293" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20263" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6082" RevisionGUID="0b4340f4-cfa7-4ee1-9bcf-bd53fc09d63e" CreationDate="2019-12-18T17:55:44.293" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20264" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6083" RevisionGUID="634cf2fb-fef5-47f5-a681-a2c1e3c3804c" CreationDate="2019-12-18T17:55:44.293" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20265" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6083" RevisionGUID="634cf2fb-fef5-47f5-a681-a2c1e3c3804c" CreationDate="2019-12-18T17:55:44.293" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20266" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6084" RevisionGUID="d177aae1-7529-4513-9f6b-37e39b44caca" CreationDate="2019-12-18T17:57:00.597" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20267" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6084" RevisionGUID="d177aae1-7529-4513-9f6b-37e39b44caca" CreationDate="2019-12-18T17:57:00.597" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20268" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6085" RevisionGUID="be4f0ace-a44a-4b47-8d83-c358337710f2" CreationDate="2019-12-18T17:57:00.597" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20269" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6085" RevisionGUID="be4f0ace-a44a-4b47-8d83-c358337710f2" CreationDate="2019-12-18T17:57:00.597" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20270" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6086" RevisionGUID="9563ff18-8098-466e-943a-5bf952c7023a" CreationDate="2019-12-18T17:57:57.523" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20271" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6086" RevisionGUID="9563ff18-8098-466e-943a-5bf952c7023a" CreationDate="2019-12-18T17:57:57.523" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20272" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6087" RevisionGUID="f55ae506-d31f-4db8-8539-66e9432e62b0" CreationDate="2019-12-18T17:57:57.523" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20273" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6087" RevisionGUID="f55ae506-d31f-4db8-8539-66e9432e62b0" CreationDate="2019-12-18T17:57:57.523" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20274" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6088" RevisionGUID="3e21e216-8779-47ad-9fdd-37917f101cf0" CreationDate="2019-12-18T18:38:04.713" UserId="6552" Text="I'm asking if there are any mythological creatures that have been described as having characteristics attributed to Jewish people." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20275" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6088" RevisionGUID="3e21e216-8779-47ad-9fdd-37917f101cf0" CreationDate="2019-12-18T18:38:04.713" UserId="6552" Text="What mythological creature(s) have characteristics attrributed with jewish people?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20276" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6088" RevisionGUID="3e21e216-8779-47ad-9fdd-37917f101cf0" CreationDate="2019-12-18T18:38:04.713" UserId="6552" Text="|mythical-creatures|folklore|judaism|jewish|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20277" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6088" RevisionGUID="a9ad6ee4-fd44-452b-ac1c-3452d966d97e" CreationDate="2019-12-18T20:40:32.140" UserId="6552" Comment="+ tags + title improvements" Text="I'm asking if there are any mythological creatures (excluding those that are part of the Jewish folklore) that have been described as having characteristics attributed to Jewish people." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20278" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="6088" RevisionGUID="a9ad6ee4-fd44-452b-ac1c-3452d966d97e" CreationDate="2019-12-18T20:40:32.140" UserId="6552" Comment="+ tags + title improvements" Text="What mythological or folkloric creature(s) have characteristics attrributed with Jewish people?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20279" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6088" RevisionGUID="7b0207b2-710a-45f1-8239-7f8012434862" CreationDate="2019-12-18T22:41:02.683" UserId="6552" Comment="Rewrite text to better describe" Text="There are any creatures from folklore and mythology whose characteristics (appearance, behavior, traits, costumes, etc.) have been atributed to Jewish people and/or antisemitism? If so, they are frequently mentioned in literature, media, parodies, etc. ?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20280" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="6088" RevisionGUID="7b0207b2-710a-45f1-8239-7f8012434862" CreationDate="2019-12-18T22:41:02.683" UserId="6552" Comment="Rewrite text to better describe" Text="What mythological or folkloric creature(s) have characteristics attrributed to Jews and anti semitism?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20281" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6089" RevisionGUID="284fe27d-3f2a-4e4b-ad70-0db460f93df5" CreationDate="2019-12-19T09:46:19.680" UserId="5511" Text="Antisemitism is almost as old as Christianity itself, and because the churches dominated every aspect of life and death, the folkloric and the religious aspects are so intertwined they are almost indistinguishable. An example of this would be the Passion Plays:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Over the course of time, Christians began to accept... that the Jewish people as a whole were responsible for killing Jesus. According to this interpretation, both the Jews present at Jesus’ death and the Jewish people collectively and for all time, have committed the sin of deicide, or God-killing. For 1900 years of Christian-Jewish history, the charge of deicide (Which was originally attributed by Melito of Sardis) has led to hatred, violence against and murder of Jews in Europe and America --*Boston College Guide to Passion Plays*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another &quot;folkloric&quot; work that was used from the Middle Ages onward is the &quot;[Judensau](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judensau)&quot; (German for &quot;Jews' sow&quot;), an image of Jews in obscene contact with a large sow (female pig), which in Judaism is an unclean animal, that appeared during the 13th century in Germany and some other European countries; its popularity lasted for over 600 years. In Nazi Germany, classes of German schoolchildren were sent to see the Judensau on German churches and the term remains extant as a neo-Nazi insult.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for &quot;costumes&quot;, the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 was the first to proclaim the requirement for Jews to wear something that distinguished them as Jews. It could be a colored piece of cloth in the shape of a star or circle or square, a Jewish hat (already a distinctive style), or a robe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For an extensive reading on the stereotypical depiction of Jews in Medieval art, see [Sara Lipton, Dark Mirror: The Medieval Origins of Anti-Jewish Iconography](https://marginalia.lareviewofbooks.org/displaced-anxiety-medieval-christian-representations-of-the-jew-and-christian-self-reflection-by-deeana-klepper/)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20284" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6079" RevisionGUID="608b6973-77ac-416b-851e-569e484e0761" CreationDate="2019-12-20T06:51:52.070" UserId="5726" Comment="added 56 characters in body" Text="The traditional stories, beliefs, and customs of Europe." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20285" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="6079" RevisionGUID="608b6973-77ac-416b-851e-569e484e0761" CreationDate="2019-12-20T06:51:52.070" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 108 edit id of 1786" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20286" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6087" RevisionGUID="2573c366-3041-40d2-b948-03573e5d2acb" CreationDate="2019-12-20T06:51:54.510" UserId="5726" Comment="added 181 characters in body" Text="An area of the sky in which the positions of the sun, moon, stars, and planets are believed in astrology to influence human behavior, and which is divided into twelve equal sections" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20287" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="6087" RevisionGUID="2573c366-3041-40d2-b948-03573e5d2acb" CreationDate="2019-12-20T06:51:54.510" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 108 edit id of 1791" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20288" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6081" RevisionGUID="3ad32cbc-1bbe-4aa5-a3ff-44ec44a7ac57" CreationDate="2019-12-20T06:51:57.447" UserId="5726" Comment="added 123 characters in body" Text="A belief, principle, or way of acting that people in a particular society or group have continued to follow for a long time" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20289" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="6081" RevisionGUID="3ad32cbc-1bbe-4aa5-a3ff-44ec44a7ac57" CreationDate="2019-12-20T06:51:57.447" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 108 edit id of 1788" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20290" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6077" RevisionGUID="ee1fb680-6acb-4bbd-b351-0c86692ed5d3" CreationDate="2019-12-20T06:52:00.190" UserId="5726" Comment="added 97 characters in body" Text="A set of actions or words performed in a regular way, often as part of a religious ceremony.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20291" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="6077" RevisionGUID="ee1fb680-6acb-4bbd-b351-0c86692ed5d3" CreationDate="2019-12-20T06:52:00.190" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 108 edit id of 1784" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20292" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1289" RevisionGUID="b9cfc502-20e9-45b6-ba59-1a44412e5390" CreationDate="2019-12-20T06:52:03.060" UserId="5726" Comment="added 62 characters in body" Text="A (usually) human like creature but extremely tall and strong." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20293" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1289" RevisionGUID="b9cfc502-20e9-45b6-ba59-1a44412e5390" CreationDate="2019-12-20T06:52:03.060" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 108 edit id of 1785" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20294" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4547" RevisionGUID="71452944-e049-4903-bec1-ecb5fa31535f" CreationDate="2019-12-20T06:52:05.767" UserId="5726" Comment="added 147 characters in body" Text="The ancient practice of studying the movements and positions of the sun, moon, planets, and stars in the belief that they influence human behavior." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20295" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4547" RevisionGUID="71452944-e049-4903-bec1-ecb5fa31535f" CreationDate="2019-12-20T06:52:05.767" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 108 edit id of 1787" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20296" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6085" RevisionGUID="e9097b1f-24b6-4d7f-8031-cb1506f666af" CreationDate="2019-12-20T06:52:08.540" UserId="5726" Comment="added 157 characters in body" Text="The final book of the New Testament. Also known as the Book of Revelations, Revelation to John, the Apocalypse of John, The Revelation, or simply Revelation." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20297" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="6085" RevisionGUID="e9097b1f-24b6-4d7f-8031-cb1506f666af" CreationDate="2019-12-20T06:52:08.540" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 108 edit id of 1790" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20298" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6083" RevisionGUID="4c141676-8c87-434e-92c4-835b79c77c96" CreationDate="2019-12-20T06:52:11.390" UserId="5726" Comment="added 117 characters in body" Text="The spirit of a dead person imagined as visiting the living and usually appearing as a pale, almost transparent form." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20299" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="6083" RevisionGUID="4c141676-8c87-434e-92c4-835b79c77c96" CreationDate="2019-12-20T06:52:11.390" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 108 edit id of 1789" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20300" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6075" RevisionGUID="0e7c1b44-2501-4625-b61a-59e9641ee066" CreationDate="2019-12-20T06:52:14.027" UserId="5726" Comment="added 135 characters in body" Text="a belief that is not based on reason or scientific thinking and that explains the causes for events in ways that are connected to magic" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20301" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="6075" RevisionGUID="0e7c1b44-2501-4625-b61a-59e9641ee066" CreationDate="2019-12-20T06:52:14.027" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 108 edit id of 1783" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20307" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6088" RevisionGUID="c580bf71-1b0f-4e93-a3a7-d8964474d71d" CreationDate="2019-12-20T13:26:47.070" UserId="6552" Comment="make the post clear" Text="There are any creatures from folklore and mythology whose characteristics (appearance, behavior, traits, costumes, etc.) have been atributed to Jewish people and/or antisemitism? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;PS. I'm asking about characteristics of **folkloric creatures** that would include ogres, brownies, kobolds, elves and related creatures. Not the aspects of the antisemitism." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20308" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6088" RevisionGUID="e55823bf-b1f1-4665-8b7e-d1203f032687" CreationDate="2019-12-20T14:48:07.890" UserId="6552" Comment="deleted 160 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="These creatures mentioned in the title have characteristics (any, such as traits, costumes, behavior, etc.) attributed to anti-semitism by antisemitic people (or have their origins rooted in this)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20309" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="6088" RevisionGUID="e55823bf-b1f1-4665-8b7e-d1203f032687" CreationDate="2019-12-20T14:48:07.890" UserId="6552" Comment="deleted 160 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Do European folklore creatures, like ogres, brownies, fairies, etc. have characteristics attributed to anti-semitism?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20310" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="6088" RevisionGUID="e55823bf-b1f1-4665-8b7e-d1203f032687" CreationDate="2019-12-20T14:48:07.890" UserId="6552" Comment="deleted 160 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|mythical-creatures|folklore|jewish|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20311" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6091" RevisionGUID="fed92fd2-b3a5-4e9e-9d76-1ff52da14695" CreationDate="2019-12-21T15:45:41.280" UserId="4152" Text="#Possible&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You don't mention any specific characteristics, specific dates or specific references so it's impossible to determine any real connexion between folkloristic iconography and some real instance(s) of antisemitism.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, one can speculate. From the 21st century perspective, we could say: &quot;Well, Dwarves love gold and the Jews run the banking system, so naturally, Dwarves are a caricature of Jews.&quot; The premise falls apart once we realise that mythological Dwarves, while they do seem to be into gold and gems, come to us from prechristian times out of the far north. Unlikely, it seems to me, that pagan Norsemen would be so perturbed by Jews that they would invent a whole race for the simple purpose of denigration.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does that mean later antisemites couldn't take those characteristics of Dwarves and turn them to evil? Of course it's possible! Tolkien fell afoul of this accusation. I think at best the answer to your query is both yes and no." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20312" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5580" RevisionGUID="f35d0cfe-fa07-4f93-b30b-5f7c1bd13c33" CreationDate="2019-12-22T14:19:46.927" UserId="1317" Comment="Fix typos " Text="OK, so there are a couple of misconceptions here. First, as Codosaur has already pointed out, [Cronus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus) and [Chronos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronos) aren't necessarily the same being -- they just have similar names.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the other hand, Cronus and Chronos were confused with each other even in antiquity. In fact the Roman god [Saturn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_(mythology)), who the Romans associated with the Greek god Cronus, was sometimes regarded as a god of Time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This gives us a reason to address the more fundamental misconception -- even if we're allowed to conflate the Titan Cronus with the personnification of Time, this doesn't grant him some sort of &quot;superpower&quot; to turn back time.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt; _Tempus edax rerum, tuque, invidiosa vetustas, omnia destruitis vitiataque dentibus aevi paulatim lenta consumitis omnia morte!_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt; _(O Time, devourer of all things, and envious Age, together you destroy all that exists and, slowly gnawing, bring on lingering death.)_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Ovid, _Metamorphoses_, 15, Tr. Brookes Moore, availableat the [Theoi Project](https://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses15.html))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ancient Greeks and Romans didn't think of time as something that could be reversed -- this is in line with the [fatalism](https://www.britannica.com/topic/fatalism) that expresses itself time after time in their mythology. You couldn't cheat fate by going back in time and changing things. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Instead, Time was regarded as a force that devours everything and wears it away to nothing. This may have been something Goya had in mind when he painted his famous painting of Saturn:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Francisco Goya, Saturn Devouring his Son](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Francisco_de_Goya%2C_Saturno_devorando_a_su_hijo_%281819-1823%29.jpg)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Source: Wikimedia Commons)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, we can answer why Zeus won. The most facile reason is that he was fated to do so, because Fate already ruled the gods. More to the point, Zeus had some powerful allies. His mother Rhea, whose strategies had kept Zeus from being swallowed along with his brothers and sisters. He had his brothers and sisters, whom Cronus had vomited up after Zeus gave him the drink Rhea concocted  for the purpose. The Cyclopes and a couple of titans such as Prometheus allied with Zeus. Most important were the [Hekatonchires](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecatoncheires) or &quot;Hundred-handed ones&quot; imprisoned by Cronus's father Ouranos: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;But when first their father was vexed in his heart with Briareus and Cottus and Gyes, he bound them in cruel bonds, because he was jealous of their exceeding manhood and comeliness and great size: and he made them live beneath the wide-pathed earth, where they were afflicted, being set to dwell under the ground, at the end of the earth, at its great borders, in bitter anguish for a long time and with great grief at heart. But the son of Cronos and the other deathless gods whom rich-haired Rhea bare from union with Cronos, brought them up again to the light at Earth's advising. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;And blameless Cottus answered him again: `Divine one, you speak that which we know well: nay, even of ourselves we know that your wisdom and understanding is exceeding, and that you became a defender of the deathless ones from chill doom. And through your devising we are come back again from the murky gloom and from our merciless bonds, enjoying what we looked not for, O lord, son of Cronos. And so now with fixed purpose and deliberate counsel we will aid your power in dreadful strife and will fight against the Titans in hard battle.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And amongst the foremost Cottus and Briareos and Gyes insatiate for war raised fierce fighting: three hundred rocks, one upon another, they launched from their strong hands and overshadowed the Titans with their missiles, and buried them beneath the wide-pathed earth, and bound them in bitter chains when they had conquered them by their strength for all their great spirit, as far beneath the earth to Tartarus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(The Theogony of Hesiod. tr. Hugh G. Evelyn-White, lines 617 ff.), at http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20313" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6092" RevisionGUID="aa0e61c3-45af-48da-a5e7-86e5d527a096" CreationDate="2019-12-22T21:28:30.920" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20314" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6092" RevisionGUID="aa0e61c3-45af-48da-a5e7-86e5d527a096" CreationDate="2019-12-22T21:28:30.920" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20315" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6093" RevisionGUID="8daf6b68-c723-40a0-b691-91a599ee8162" CreationDate="2019-12-22T21:28:30.920" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20316" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6093" RevisionGUID="8daf6b68-c723-40a0-b691-91a599ee8162" CreationDate="2019-12-22T21:28:30.920" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20321" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6096" RevisionGUID="9dd623d9-3aff-435e-be4b-e68cc35b4185" CreationDate="2019-12-24T23:27:43.323" UserId="6567" Text="Forgive my profound ignorance, as I am a rather new learner to Norse mythology. Please correct me if my recounts are in error. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From what I understand, Thor does not accompany the gods who travel across Bifröst. Instead, he wades through the rivers Körmt and Örmt when traveling to and from Asgard. Is it specified whether these rivers flow directly beneath Bifröst? Contemporary artwork on the subject seem to suggest this. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20322" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6096" RevisionGUID="9dd623d9-3aff-435e-be4b-e68cc35b4185" CreationDate="2019-12-24T23:27:43.323" UserId="6567" Text="Thor and Bifröst" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20323" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6096" RevisionGUID="9dd623d9-3aff-435e-be4b-e68cc35b4185" CreationDate="2019-12-24T23:27:43.323" UserId="6567" Text="|norse|thor|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20328" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6098" RevisionGUID="430e4f19-13ad-4973-8cb9-19414a6a3d0d" CreationDate="2019-12-26T09:00:32.003" UserId="6571" Text="Is there any way to test whether people were capable of doing things in those days that they cannot do today. One way (I'm sure there are others) to test would be to see if there are lots of reports citing similar occurrences in different places and at different times in front of a large number of people. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even in medieval times, people referred to dybbuks etc. Again, the question is whether there are lots of reports of these things appearing in public. To sum up, has someone has scientifically investigated the possibility that the ancients could do things that we would call magical." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20329" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6098" RevisionGUID="430e4f19-13ad-4973-8cb9-19414a6a3d0d" CreationDate="2019-12-26T09:00:32.003" UserId="6571" Text="Were People ever able to do what we would call magic" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20330" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6098" RevisionGUID="430e4f19-13ad-4973-8cb9-19414a6a3d0d" CreationDate="2019-12-26T09:00:32.003" UserId="6571" Text="|magic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20331" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5443" RevisionGUID="04befd5b-b853-48bd-bff5-8db451a2e65e" CreationDate="2019-12-26T14:18:58.487" UserDisplayName="user5459" Comment="Better clarification" Text="Are there any myths about rational beings (except gods/immaterial beings) that walked the earth before humans?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20333" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6050" RevisionGUID="be287c8f-d348-428c-9031-fd784f65a95d" CreationDate="2019-12-26T18:09:22.603" UserId="2892" Comment="added 1091 characters in body" Text="I've been wracking my brain but can't think of any examples of ancient mythologies that involve travel *backwards* in time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are myths that involving travelling *forward* in time:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Rip Van Winkle][1] is an example of such a folkloric story, although it is fairly modern in that Washington Irving published the story in 1819.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Urashima Tarō][2] is a Japanese folktale about a hero who travels to a magical undersea dragon palace. Although he only spends a few days there, when he returns to the real world, hundreds of years have passed.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Celtic faerie lore, this same time distortion occurs in regard to [Tír na nÓg][3], which probably derives from [Oisín][4], son of [Finn Mac Cool][5], the first bard of Ireland:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Oisín agrees to marry the fairy woman Niamh Goldenhair, and returns with her to the Land of Youth, where he becomes king.  Although he only stays for 3 days, when he returns to Ireland, 300 years have passed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rip_Van_Winkle&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urashima_Tar%C5%8D#Folktale_or_fairy_tale&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%ADr_na_n%C3%93g&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ois%C3%ADn&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fionn_mac_Cumhaill" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20334" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6050" RevisionGUID="b7fa2634-d55d-4bfd-a9a0-768a0d648ca3" CreationDate="2019-12-26T18:16:51.810" UserId="2892" Comment="added 1091 characters in body" Text="I've been wracking my brain but can't think of any examples of ancient mythologies that involve travel *backwards* in time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are myths that involving travelling *forward* in time:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Rip Van Winkle][1] is an example of such a folkloric story, although it is fairly modern in that Washington Irving published the story in 1819.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Urashima Tarō][2] is a Japanese folktale about a hero who travels to a magical undersea dragon palace. Although he only spends a few days there, when he returns to the real world, hundreds of years have passed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The Mahabharata includes the story of [Kakudmi/Raivata][3], who visits Brahma in heaven, and, when he returns to the mundane world, finds that many ages have passed. (Brahma explained that time passes differently on differnt planes.)   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Celtic faerie lore, this same time distortion occurs in regard to [Tír na nÓg][4], which probably derives from [Oisín][5], son of [Finn Mac Cool][6], the first bard of Ireland:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Oisín agrees to marry the fairy woman Niamh Goldenhair, and returns with her to the Land of Youth, where he becomes king.  Although he only stays for 3 days, when he returns to Ireland, 300 years have passed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*(More recently, the celebrated contemporary author Gene Wolfe utilized this device in his [Wizard/Knight][7] books.)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rip_Van_Winkle&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urashima_Tar%C5%8D#Folktale_or_fairy_tale&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakudmi&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%ADr_na_n%C3%93g&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ois%C3%ADn&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fionn_mac_Cumhaill&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wizard_Knight#Cosmology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20335" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6050" RevisionGUID="c1b6265f-8702-40e4-ba25-4a7c79749bba" CreationDate="2019-12-26T18:25:11.027" UserId="2892" Comment="added 1091 characters in body" Text="I've been wracking my brain but can't think of any examples of ancient mythologies that involve travel *backwards* in time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are myths that involving travelling *forward* in time:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In Jewish parables from the Talmud, the scholar [Honi ha-M'agel][2] falls asleep and wakes decades later. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These stories may be the basis for the popular modern folkloric tale of [Rip Van Winkle][1], published in 1819 by Washington Irving.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Urashima Tarō][3] is a Japanese folktale about a hero who travels to a magical undersea dragon palace. Although he only spends a few days there, when he returns to the real world, hundreds of years have passed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The Mahabharata includes the story of [Kakudmi/Raivata][4], who visits Brahma in heaven, and, when he returns to the mundane world, finds that many ages have passed. (Brahma explained that time passes differently on differnt planes.)   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Celtic faerie lore, this same time distortion occurs in regard to [Tír na nÓg][5], which probably derives from [Oisín][6], son of [Finn Mac Cool][7], the first bard of Ireland:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Oisín agrees to marry the fairy woman Niamh Goldenhair, and returns with her to the Land of Youth, where he becomes king.  Although he only stays for 3 days, when he returns to Ireland, 300 years have passed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*(More recently, the celebrated contemporary author Gene Wolfe utilized this device in his [Wizard/Knight][8] books.)*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rip_Van_Winkle&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honi_ha-M%27agel#Extended_sleep_story&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urashima_Tar%C5%8D#Folktale_or_fairy_tale&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakudmi&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%ADr_na_n%C3%93g&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ois%C3%ADn&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fionn_mac_Cumhaill&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wizard_Knight#Cosmology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20337" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6099" RevisionGUID="576d6237-8976-4a06-84bb-91841f423c5a" CreationDate="2019-12-26T19:34:57.987" UserId="2892" Text="This typically falls under the field of [pseudo-science][1], although there have been rigorous, empirical attempts to validate the supernatural (all have failed.)  However, these inquiries themselves have formed a type of modern mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some highlights:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Franz Mesmer][2] (1734-1815) was a doctor who used a form of scientific method in an attempt to confirm a form of natural energy that connects living beings. Initially called &quot;animal magnetism&quot;, his theories led to what we today call [hypnosis][3] (aka &quot;mesmerism&quot;).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Wilhelm Reich][4] was a doctor who investigated the paranormal.  He is most famous for the concept of &quot;[orgone][5]&quot;, a type of cosmic/biological energy.  (His ideas may have provided a basis for &quot;[the Force][6]&quot; of Star Wars fame. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Project MKUltra][7] was an actual CIA research project that explored the possibility of scientific means of mind control, which appears in many mythologies.  This endeavor has been subsequently popularized and extended.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Remote Viewing][8], a means of seeing things in distant locations, and even in the past, was studied, initially within the Spiritualist movement, but later by the CIA, the British government, and and the PEAR project at Princeton.  Although none of these studies were a success, an early 19th century researcher includes [Michael Faraday][9], who made significant contributions to the field of electromagnetism &amp; chemistry.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Remote Viewing was a subject of the hit television series, [Stranger Things][10] and the film [The Men Who Stare at Goats][11].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Isaac Newton, one of the most important &amp; influential scientists in human history was an [occult researcher][12].  As with Faraday, the boundaries of hard science were still being defined.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other examples can be found in the [paranormal wiki][13].  It also has to be mentioned that the debunkers of paranormal claims are often more famous than the promoters, chief among them [Harry Houdini][14].  In the contemporary era, this tradition has been carried on by the [Amazing Randi][15] and [Penn &amp; Teller][16]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Mesmer#Animal_magnetism&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnosis&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Reich#Orgonomy&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orgone&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Force&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_viewing&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Faraday&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stranger_Things&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Men_Who_Stare_at_Goats_(film)#Plot&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton%27s_occult_studies&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranormal#Paranormal_research&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Houdini#Debunking_spiritualists&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Randi#Skeptic&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_%26_Teller:_Bullshit!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20338" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6099" RevisionGUID="0064e034-1c2f-45f2-a04b-8756a78e9cc0" CreationDate="2019-12-26T19:44:15.240" UserId="2892" Comment="added 759 characters in body" Text="This typically falls under the field of [pseudo-science][1], although there have been rigorous, empirical attempts to validate the supernatural (all have failed.)  However, these inquiries themselves have formed a type of modern mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some highlights:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Franz Mesmer][2] (1734-1815) was a doctor who used a form of scientific method in an attempt to confirm a form of natural energy that connects living beings. Initially called &quot;animal magnetism&quot;, his theories led to what we today call [hypnosis][3] (aka &quot;mesmerism&quot;).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Wilhelm Reich][4] was a doctor who investigated the paranormal.  He is most famous for the concept of &quot;[orgone][5]&quot;, a type of cosmic/biological energy.  (His ideas may have provided a basis for &quot;[the Force][6]&quot; of Star Wars fame. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Project MKUltra][7] was an actual CIA research project that explored the possibility of scientific means of mind control, which appears in many mythologies.  This endeavor has been subsequently popularized and extended.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Remote Viewing][8], a means of seeing things in distant locations, and even in the past, was studied, initially within the Spiritualist movement, but later by the CIA, the British government, and and the PEAR project at Princeton.  Although none of these studies were a success, an early 19th century researcher includes [Michael Faraday][9], who made significant contributions to the field of electromagnetism &amp; chemistry.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Remote Viewing was a subject of the hit television series, [Stranger Things][10] and the film [The Men Who Stare at Goats][11].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Isaac Newton, one of the most important &amp; influential scientists in human history was an [occult researcher][12].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As with Faraday, the boundaries of hard science were still being defined.  The mystical art of [alchemy][13] likely provides some precursor to modern science &amp; empiricism, chiefly chemistry, medicine &amp; psychology. (A chief goal of alchemists was converting &quot;lead into gold&quot;.) Similarly, [numerology][14] can be seen as a precursor to number theory and the modern predictive sciences, which utilize statistics (maninpulation &amp; analysis of numbers) to chart the path of planets and achieve reproducible results in all sciences.  Before the term &quot;scientists&quot;, those making inquiries into the sources of natural phenomena were often referred to as &quot;[Natural Philosophers][15]&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other examples can be found in the [paranormal wiki][16].  It also has to be mentioned that the debunkers of paranormal claims are often more famous than the promoters, chief among them [Harry Houdini][17].  In the contemporary era, this tradition has been carried on by the [Amazing Randi][18] and [Penn &amp; Teller][19]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Mesmer#Animal_magnetism&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnosis&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Reich#Orgonomy&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orgone&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Force&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_viewing&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Faraday&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stranger_Things&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Men_Who_Stare_at_Goats_(film)#Plot&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton%27s_occult_studies&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerology&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_philosophy&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranormal#Paranormal_research&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Houdini#Debunking_spiritualists&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Randi#Skeptic&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_%26_Teller:_Bullshit!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
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  <row Id="20340" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="6098" RevisionGUID="38294736-b0c5-494c-8725-79f853c708fc" CreationDate="2019-12-26T19:46:46.763" UserId="2892" Comment="edited title" Text="|magic|paranormal|science|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20341" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6100" RevisionGUID="29484e29-1ca7-4a52-905b-358e9e651b5c" CreationDate="2019-12-26T19:49:18.477" UserId="2892" Text="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranormal" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20342" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6100" RevisionGUID="29484e29-1ca7-4a52-905b-358e9e651b5c" CreationDate="2019-12-26T19:49:18.477" UserId="2892" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20343" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6101" RevisionGUID="d149e600-1e06-49ba-a214-e893ecd466d5" CreationDate="2019-12-26T19:49:18.477" UserId="2892" Text="For questions about paranormal phenomenon (typically UFOlogy, ghosts, psychic powers, &amp; cryptozoology)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20344" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6101" RevisionGUID="d149e600-1e06-49ba-a214-e893ecd466d5" CreationDate="2019-12-26T19:49:18.477" UserId="2892" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20345" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6102" RevisionGUID="1ec4012b-cb3f-49e8-9d12-0b88e798ef11" CreationDate="2019-12-26T19:50:45.730" UserId="2892" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20346" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6102" RevisionGUID="1ec4012b-cb3f-49e8-9d12-0b88e798ef11" CreationDate="2019-12-26T19:50:45.730" UserId="2892" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20347" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6103" RevisionGUID="f2d1e13c-5eb8-4df1-88f6-9f1426e729d4" CreationDate="2019-12-26T19:50:45.730" UserId="2892" Text="For questions about scientific inquiry into the source or veracity of myths and legends.  (Can include archaeology, anthropology, and paranormal investigation.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20348" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6103" RevisionGUID="f2d1e13c-5eb8-4df1-88f6-9f1426e729d4" CreationDate="2019-12-26T19:50:45.730" UserId="2892" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20349" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6099" RevisionGUID="b128f0de-1436-4410-98c8-4df8c2cca13f" CreationDate="2019-12-26T20:15:58.470" UserId="2892" Comment="added 18 characters in body" Text="This typically falls under the field of [pseudo-science][1], although there have been rigorous, empirical attempts to validate the supernatural (all have failed.)  However, these inquiries themselves have formed a type of modern mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some highlights:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Franz Mesmer][2] (1734-1815) was a doctor who used a form of scientific method in an attempt to confirm a form of natural energy that connects living beings. Initially called &quot;animal magnetism&quot;, his theories led to what we today call [hypnosis][3] (aka &quot;mesmerism&quot;).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Wilhelm Reich][4] was a doctor who investigated the paranormal.  He is most famous for the concept of &quot;[orgone][5]&quot;, a type of cosmic/biological energy.  (His ideas may have provided a basis for &quot;[the Force][6]&quot; of Star Wars fame.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Project MKUltra][7] was an actual CIA research project that explored the possibility of scientific means of mind control, which appears in many mythologies.  This endeavor has been subsequently popularized and extended in popular media.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Remote Viewing][8], a means of seeing things in distant locations, and even in the past, was studied, initially within the Spiritualist movement, but later by the CIA, the British government, and and the PEAR project at Princeton.  Although none of these studies were a success, an early 19th century researcher includes [Michael Faraday][9], who made significant contributions to the field of electromagnetism &amp; chemistry.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Remote Viewing was a subject of the hit television series, [Stranger Things][10] and the film [The Men Who Stare at Goats][11].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Isaac Newton, one of the most important &amp; influential scientists in human history was an [occult researcher][12].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As with Faraday, the boundaries of hard science were still being defined.  The mystical art of [alchemy][13] likely provides some precursor to modern science &amp; empiricism, chiefly chemistry, medicine &amp; psychology. (A chief goal of alchemists was converting &quot;lead into gold&quot;.) Similarly, [numerology][14] can be seen as a precursor to number theory and the modern predictive sciences, which utilize statistics (maninpulation &amp; analysis of numbers) to chart the path of planets and achieve reproducible results in all sciences.  Before the term &quot;scientists&quot;, those making inquiries into the sources of natural phenomena were often referred to as &quot;[Natural Philosophers][15]&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other examples can be found in the [paranormal wiki][16].  It also has to be mentioned that the debunkers of paranormal claims are often more famous than the promoters, chief among them [Harry Houdini][17].  In the contemporary era, this tradition has been carried on by the [Amazing Randi][18] and [Penn &amp; Teller][19]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Mesmer#Animal_magnetism&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnosis&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Reich#Orgonomy&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orgone&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Force&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_viewing&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Faraday&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stranger_Things&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Men_Who_Stare_at_Goats_(film)#Plot&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton%27s_occult_studies&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerology&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_philosophy&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranormal#Paranormal_research&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Houdini#Debunking_spiritualists&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Randi#Skeptic&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_%26_Teller:_Bullshit!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20350" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6099" RevisionGUID="0298a375-277b-4c9a-b627-bcdfeb8ce347" CreationDate="2019-12-26T22:03:39.413" UserId="2892" Comment="added 67 characters in body" Text="This typically falls under the field of [pseudo-science][1], although there have been rigorous, empirical attempts to validate the supernatural (all have failed.)  However, these inquiries themselves have formed a type of modern mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some highlights:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Franz Mesmer][2] (1734-1815) was a doctor who used a form of scientific method in an attempt to confirm a form of natural energy that connects living beings. Initially called &quot;animal magnetism&quot;, his theories led to what we today call [hypnosis][3] (aka &quot;mesmerism&quot;).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Wilhelm Reich][4] was a doctor who investigated the paranormal.  He is most famous for the concept of &quot;[orgone][5]&quot;, a type of cosmic/biological energy.  (His ideas may have provided a basis for &quot;[the Force][6]&quot; of Star Wars fame.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Project MKUltra][7] was an actual CIA research project that explored the possibility of scientific means of mind control, which appears in many mythologies.  This endeavor has been subsequently popularized and extended in popular media.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Remote Viewing][8], a means of seeing things in distant locations, and even in the past, was studied, initially within the Spiritualist movement, but later by the CIA, the British government, and and the PEAR project at Princeton.  Although none of these studies were a success, an early 19th century researcher includes [Michael Faraday][9], who made significant contributions to the field of electromagnetism &amp; chemistry.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Remote Viewing was a subject of the hit television series, [Stranger Things][10] and the film [The Men Who Stare at Goats][11].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Isaac Newton, one of the most important &amp; influential scientists in human history was an [occult researcher][12].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As with Faraday, the boundaries of hard science were still being defined.  The mystical art of [alchemy][13] likely provides some precursor to modern science &amp; empiricism, chiefly chemistry, medicine &amp; [psychology][14]. (A chief goal of alchemists was converting &quot;lead into gold&quot;.) Similarly, [numerology][15] can be seen as a precursor to number theory and the modern predictive sciences, which utilize statistics (manipulation &amp; analysis of numbers) to chart the path of planets and achieve reproducible results in all sciences.  Before the term &quot;scientists&quot;, those making inquiries into the sources of natural phenomena were often referred to as &quot;[Natural Philosophers][16]&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other examples can be found in the [paranormal wiki][17].  It also has to be mentioned that the debunkers of paranormal claims are often more famous than the promoters, chief among them [Harry Houdini][18].  In the contemporary era, this tradition has been carried on by the [Amazing Randi][19] and [Penn &amp; Teller][20]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Mesmer#Animal_magnetism&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnosis&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Reich#Orgonomy&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orgone&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Force&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_viewing&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Faraday&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stranger_Things&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Men_Who_Stare_at_Goats_(film)#Plot&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton%27s_occult_studies&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology_and_Alchemy&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerology&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_philosophy&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranormal#Paranormal_research&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Houdini#Debunking_spiritualists&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Randi#Skeptic&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_%26_Teller:_Bullshit!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20352" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6104" RevisionGUID="ece7e588-d159-4680-b3d2-74c40dfea6c2" CreationDate="2019-12-27T18:16:59.417" UserId="5511" Text="These rivers are mentioned in verse 29 of the Grimnismol: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kormt and Ormt and the Kerlaugs twain&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Shall Thor each day wade through,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When dooms to give he forth shall go&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; To the ash-tree Yggdrasil;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For heaven's bridge burns all in flame,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And the sacred waters seethe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are 2 prevailing interpretations of this verse:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. the verse is part of a larger set that prophecizes what will happen during Ragnarok&#xD;&#xA; 2. when Thor leaves the heavens (i.e., when a thunder-storm is over) the rainbow-bridge becomes hot in the sun&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The rivers themselves are believed to be just beneath the tree roots of Yggdrasil. As to your question, Yggdrasil's roots form very weird cartography, as this illustration details:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we indeed take the rivers to be *under* the roots, then they are actually in the other realms. However, artist renderings do depict the rivers to be just under Bifrost, though there is no explicit reference to this in the Edda or Grimnismol:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;No other information is known about these 2 rivers. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/NXDmo.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/OOz2F.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20355" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="963" RevisionGUID="162a43eb-af00-4adb-aa6b-cc08f95934a9" CreationDate="2019-12-28T04:25:15.103" UserId="467" Comment="edited body" Text="This idea based on the Sumerian myth known as *Enki and Ninhursag* (see *ANET,* pp. 37-41) keeps popping up, especially in popular literature and on the internet. Kramer, however, did give credence to it, as mentioned by the blogger to whom you linked (see Kramer's *History Begins at Sumer,* pp. 143-44). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To make a long story short, the god Enki out of curiosity eats 8 plants in the paradise of Dilmun (cf. Eve eating the forbidden fruit), which the goddess Ninhursag considers a mortal sin, so she causes 8 of Enki's body parts (including his rib) to suffer, and he is on the brink of death. Enlil takes up Enki's cause and persuades Ninhursag to relent, and so various deities then come to heal each of Enki's body parts. The one who heals his rib is the goddess Ninti, whose name means both &quot;lady of the rib,&quot; and &quot;lady who makes live,&quot; which serves as a pun. Thus is established a possible parallel between Ninti and Eve, who was created from Adam's rib (in Hebrew *tsela*) and whose name in Hebrew (*hawwa*) connotes life (thus Eve was called &quot;the mother of all the living&quot; in Genesis 3:20). The pun doesn't work in Hebrew since the words for rib and life differ, but I'm not sure the biblical writer knew about it or, if he did, cared. (Having said that, it looks like the biblical writer made his own pun, because the Hebrew word for rib, *tsela,* can also connote &quot;stumbling,&quot; so although Eve was ostensibly created to be Adam's helper (Gen. 2:18), she proved to be his stumbling block.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are obvious parallels here, which have gotten many people excited, but proving a direct influence has proved elusive, and I know of no biblical scholars (whether faith-based or secular) who maintain that there is any such direct influence, because the usual scholarly criteria for proving intertextual influence are not strongly met here; but this remains a reasonable possibility. More generally, many prevalent ancient Near Eastern mythological motifs do show up in the Hebrew Bible, so it is clear to me that biblical Palestine shared a common cultural (including mythological) context with the broader ancient Near East." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20356" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6105" RevisionGUID="bd742a19-f65b-4444-8a53-ea7120644470" CreationDate="2019-12-28T18:39:36.193" UserId="6571" Text="People used to believe that babies born at 7 months were more likely to survive at 7 months than 8 months.&#xD;&#xA;A male is born face down wheras a female is born face up.&#xD;&#xA;Another source describes 2 channels in the male sex organ; one for urine and one for semen?&#xD;&#xA;How did these beliefs arise and how could people have believed things like this if they are demonstrably false?&#xD;&#xA;Was it really the case that no one bothered to check?&#xD;&#xA;Alternatively, has nature changed?&#xD;&#xA;I believe these ideas are myths which is why I've posted them here." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20357" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6105" RevisionGUID="bd742a19-f65b-4444-8a53-ea7120644470" CreationDate="2019-12-28T18:39:36.193" UserId="6571" Text="Why did the ancients believe things that were demonstrably false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20358" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6105" RevisionGUID="bd742a19-f65b-4444-8a53-ea7120644470" CreationDate="2019-12-28T18:39:36.193" UserId="6571" Text="|history|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20359" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6105" RevisionGUID="0ed80377-0bfb-443a-bad0-e30cba14537d" CreationDate="2019-12-28T20:46:06.323" UserId="6571" Comment="added 23 characters in body" Text="People used to believe that babies born at 7 months were more likely to survive at 7 months than 8 months.&#xD;&#xA;A male is born face down wheras a female is born face up.&#xD;&#xA;Another source describes 2 channels in the male sex organ; one for urine and one for semen?&#xD;&#xA;How did these beliefs arise and how could people have believed things like this if they are demonstrably false?&#xD;&#xA;Was it really the case that no one bothered to check?&#xD;&#xA;Alternatively, has nature changed?&#xD;&#xA;How could we check?&#xD;&#xA;I believe these ideas are myths which is why I've posted them here.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20363" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6107" RevisionGUID="16c7b2d4-086e-458e-928e-97673a7a9d1c" CreationDate="2019-12-28T22:33:12.453" UserId="5511" Text="The [scientific method](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method) is only a few centuries old at most. Before that, you need to remember that most people were illiterate, and universities or indiviual researchers were driven (or at least influenced) by religion. Retributions for disagreeing with official religious dogma were severe in the Middle Ages when the power of the church was at its highest. For example, study of human anatomy was strictly forbidden by the church as they saw it as a violation of creation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Leonardo Da Vinci made some of the first accurate Western anatomical drawings around 1506 at the peril of his life. He was accused of ‘unseemly conduct’ (some sources even say witchcraft) by Rome and ceased his anatomical studies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the specific examples you give in your question:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Premature Birth Viability: The oldest source for this myth is in a 5th Century BCE Greek text attributes to Hippocrates. It also appears in the Talmud and Medieval texts. The origins of this superstition have been researched and detailed in [this paper](https://hods.org/pdf/8-month%20old%20Fetus%20Full%20article1.pdf). The origin seems to be the special status of the number seven throughout history. It has a special meaning in Greek mythology, and in the New Testament, it symbolizes the unity of the four corners of the Earth with the Holy Trinity. The number seven is also featured in the Book of Revelation (seven churches, seven angels, seven seals, seven trumpets, and seven stars). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Face Up/Down Births: this superstition originates in Babylonian texts and was copied into the Talmud. The &quot;reasoning&quot; seems to have been: &quot;boys are born face down, so they do not need to see their mother's &quot;shame&quot;, while girls are like their mother, so they are not ashamed&quot;. See page 128 of this [research paper on Birth in Babylonia and the Bible](https://books.google.be/books?id=-n4LQNeU1ckC&amp;pg=PA128#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I couldn't find a research paper that details the origin of the superstition on dual male sex organ channels.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/iUFmd.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20365" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2669" RevisionGUID="e91c1b9c-80a4-464c-8c09-81d3b993614d" CreationDate="2019-12-29T15:38:41.730" UserId="1317" Comment="fix typo" Text="***[Ma'at][1]*** is the ancient Egyptian goddess of Truth, and is represented by a feather in the ancient [Egyptian Book of the Dead][2]. The feather determines the truthfulness of the deceased.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The deceased is brought before [Osiris][3] and recites ritual declarations of his purity. But judgement is not rendered until the deceased's heart is weighed against the feather of Ma'at. If the heart and feather balance, then the deceased has been truthful and goes on to eternal life. If not, the Devourer [Ammit][4] takes him. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This jpeg from Wikipedia shows a scene, similar to a multi-panel comic strip from the sarcophagus of one [Hunefer][5], a scribe who lived during the 19th Dynasty, about 1300 BCE. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the middle panel, Hunefer's heart (on the left side of the scale) is being weighed against the feather (on the right side) with Osiris presiding and [Anubis][6] and Ammit looking on. On the right, Horus presents Hunefer (who has passed the test) to Osiris.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![BD_Hunefer][7]][7]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Jpeg source: [Wikipedia: File:BD_Hunefer.jpg][8], Original on display in the [British Museum][9]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maat&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_the_Dead&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammit&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunefer&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anubis&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/infxB.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BD_Hunefer.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://www.britishmuseum.org/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20366" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5239" RevisionGUID="b34ffafa-7c7a-4c91-9c9e-ec4fa40f8796" CreationDate="2019-12-29T16:11:03.527" UserDisplayName="user5459" Comment="edited title" Text="Myths/folktales/fairytales/movies(optional)/tv series (optional) of areas/buildings/objects that disappear and reappear at fixed intervals?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20367" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6108" RevisionGUID="0ae49068-09d3-4c38-a0b6-343cadc0ff8e" CreationDate="2019-12-29T16:30:00.967" UserId="6577" Text="The ranking system is based on base 60 which was the basis of the Sumerian number system. The top god Anu or sky father was ranked 60 and the other gods and goddesses were based off of that. I'm surprised that greater goddess Inanna was ranked lower. After the Sumerians, other successor civilizations like the Akkadians and Assyrians added their gods to the list. Inanna should be just below Enki and his wife Ninki which should give her a power ranking of 30 instead of 15." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20368" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6108" RevisionGUID="1c752048-3655-4c9c-89e4-0eb592163c16" CreationDate="2019-12-29T16:35:09.653" UserId="6577" Comment="added 83 characters in body" Text="The ranking system is based on base 60 which was the basis of the Sumerian number system. The top god Anu or sky father was ranked 60 and his spouse was ranked at 55--that pattern of husband-wife continues down the list. The other gods and goddesses were based off of that. I'm surprised that greater goddess Inanna was ranked lower. After the Sumerians, other successor civilizations like the Akkadians and Assyrians added their gods to the list. Inanna should be just below Enki and his wife Ninki which should give her a power ranking of 30 instead of 15." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20369" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6108" RevisionGUID="73acc82f-15a7-480d-9396-4f3305c0816f" CreationDate="2019-12-29T21:36:25.320" UserId="6577" Comment="added 5 characters in body" Text="The ranking system is based on base 60 which was the basis of the Sumerian number system. The top god Anu or sky father was ranked 60 and his spouse Antu was ranked at 55--that pattern of husband-wife continues down the list. The other gods and goddesses were based off of that. I'm surprised that greater goddess Inanna was ranked lower. After the Sumerians, other successor civilizations like the Akkadians and Assyrians added their gods to the list. Inanna should be just below Enki and his wife Ninki which should give her a power ranking of 30 instead of 15." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20371" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6108" RevisionGUID="980bc43c-009e-42ad-b45e-f1075aec3460" CreationDate="2019-12-30T12:02:01.827" UserId="6577" Comment="added 418 characters in body" Text="The ranking system was based on base 60 which was the basis of the Sumerian number system. The top god Anu or sky father was ranked 60 and his spouse Antu was ranked at 55--that pattern of husband-wife continues down the list. The other gods and goddesses were based off of that. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm surprised that greater goddess Inanna was ranked lower. The Greeks split Inanna into three goddesses: Athena, Aphrodite, and Artemis. Other civilizations called her Ishtar and Isis. After the Sumerians, other successor civilizations like the Akkadians, Babylonians and Assyrians elevated or added their gods to the list. Inanna went down in the power rankings. Inanna should be just below Enki and his wife Ninki which should give her a power ranking of 30 instead of 15.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, the vast majority of Sumerian gods and goddesses were given a power ranking of 5. For instance, The mother of Gilgamesh, Ninsun &quot;Lady of Wild Cows&quot; and the patron goddess of Lagash, would have a power ranking of 5." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20372" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6109" RevisionGUID="11b2d0db-3a8e-4d4f-ae3e-2a392d3c0063" CreationDate="2019-12-30T21:09:17.063" UserId="6581" Text="I am reading Fagle's translation of the Iliad and am trying to find the Greek words used for &quot;Yielding is far better&quot; which appears on line 320 of Fagle's translation. When I consult the Greek transcript and other translations the narrative is very different. Is Fagle just taking creative liberty here or am I missing something? Thanks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;BTW I am not sure if this is the correct place to put this, if there is a classicist/ancient language section just let me know." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20373" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6109" RevisionGUID="11b2d0db-3a8e-4d4f-ae3e-2a392d3c0063" CreationDate="2019-12-30T21:09:17.063" UserId="6581" Text="Fagle's Translation Question in the First Book of the Iliad" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20374" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6109" RevisionGUID="11b2d0db-3a8e-4d4f-ae3e-2a392d3c0063" CreationDate="2019-12-30T21:09:17.063" UserId="6581" Text="|greek|translation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20375" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6110" RevisionGUID="f2721d0f-040f-4384-9cef-4544f61411fa" CreationDate="2019-12-31T00:51:53.920" UserId="2682" Text="That is actually the second half of Line **274** of *Iliad* 1: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ἐπεὶ πείθεσθαι ἄμεινον (*epeì peíthesthai ámeinon*),&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;an expression very commonly rendered into English as &quot;to obey is better&quot;, such as in Augustus Taber Murray's 1924 translation (Harvard University Press). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Samuel Butler's 1898 rendition (Cambridge University Press) has &quot;for this is the more excellent way&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A.S. Kline's somewhat looser version, on his website [Poetry in Translation](https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad1.php#anchor_Toc328052749), says: &quot;for that is wise&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For some reason, Fagles' version has a very different numbering system, setting this particular passage almost fifty lines off. The only ideas I have for this are that his translation is stylistically just that different from other mainstream ones or that different manuscripts of the *Iliad* are structured or numbered differently, and he happens to be using a different one from Murray, Butler and Kline.   " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20376" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="29" RevisionGUID="8a7423e8-7993-404d-8f85-f580ccc4c7f4" CreationDate="2019-12-31T01:28:31.000" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; attempted to clarify the question" Text="Heracles and Perseus were two well-known sons of Zeus fathered by mortal women.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How many other **male** offspring did Zeus father by **human women**?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How many of these (sons of mortal mothers) specifically do *not* have alternate versions of their paternity given in the myths? Or in other words, which ones are only ever ascribed as sons of Zeus, and never occur as having a different father?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20379" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6107" RevisionGUID="8e60fc78-af15-4302-ab0e-aacc199a4c34" CreationDate="2019-12-31T10:15:32.037" UserId="5511" Comment="added 1587 characters in body" Text="The [scientific method](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method) is only a few centuries old at most. Before that, you need to remember that most people were illiterate, and universities or indiviual researchers were driven (or at least influenced) by religion. Retributions for disagreeing with official religious dogma were severe in the Middle Ages when the power of the church was at its highest. For example, study of human anatomy was strictly forbidden by the church as they saw it as a violation of creation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Leonardo Da Vinci made some of the first accurate Western anatomical drawings around 1506 at the peril of his life. He was accused of ‘unseemly conduct’ (some sources even say witchcraft) by Rome and ceased his anatomical studies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the specific examples you give in your question:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Premature Birth Viability: The oldest source for this myth is in a 5th Century BCE Greek text attributes to Hippocrates. It also appears in the Talmud and Medieval texts. The origins of this superstition have been researched and detailed in [this paper](https://hods.org/pdf/8-month%20old%20Fetus%20Full%20article1.pdf). The origin seems to be the special status of the number seven throughout history. It has a special meaning in Greek mythology, and in the New Testament, it symbolizes the unity of the four corners of the Earth with the Holy Trinity. The number seven is also featured in the Book of Revelation (seven churches, seven angels, seven seals, seven trumpets, and seven stars). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Face Up/Down Births: this superstition originates in Babylonian texts and was copied into the Talmud. The &quot;reasoning&quot; seems to have been: &quot;boys are born face down, so they do not need to see their mother's &quot;shame&quot;, while girls are like their mother, so they are not ashamed&quot;. See page 128 of this [research paper on Birth in Babylonia and the Bible](https://books.google.be/books?id=-n4LQNeU1ckC&amp;pg=PA128#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I couldn't find a research paper that details the origin of the superstition on dual male sex organ channels.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/iUFmd.jpg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;@Alhal as to your question in the commentaries,, that depends on how far you want to go back. The Talmud is considered a key text in [Judaism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism), in which there are two &quot;editions&quot; of the Talmud: The Babylonian (Jewish Babylonian Aramaic) and the Jerusalem (Hebrew) text. If this is as far as you want to go back, then the collective texts of the Tanakh, Tora, Mishnah &amp; Midrash should encompass the belief system of (Monotheistic) Judaism.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the origins of Judaism lie in the Bronze Age amidst polytheistic ancient Semitic religions, like Canaanite &amp; Babylonian, of which you can find many remnants in the Judaic texts:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Who is like unto thee, O Lord, among the gods?&quot; (Exodus 15:11)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Clearly points to this earlier polytheistic &amp; animistic period.  The god Ba’al is mentioned about 90 times in the Tanakh. Ba’al was an honorific title of the god Hadad, in much the same way that &quot;Adonai&quot; is an honorific title for Yahweh. The same pattern of association can be found for other gods like El, Mot, Rahab, Moloch, etc. This is called the &quot;pre-Mosaic&quot; (before Mozes) or the [Ancient Semitic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Semitic_religion) stage of the religion, and there is much less literature on this phase of what would become Judaism. My recommendation would be to start by looking at Babylonian and Canaanite texts and then derive how much was assimilated into Judaism. Based on your original question, this will probably be more useful, as many of the superstitions you listed originate in the polytheistic period." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20383" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6114" RevisionGUID="4b5c8c29-3bd0-46da-8560-456bc94abea2" CreationDate="2020-01-02T06:20:39.547" UserId="2807" Text="I'd like to know of other castration myths besides the one with Gea, Cronos and that poor guy Ouranos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I didn't find much with a quick Google search, and the only other case that comes to mind is Samson and Delilah, not really the same but...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there other tales in any mythology featuring castration or emasculation?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't need an exhaustive list, only one or two popular cases, maybe three if those abound.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And sorry about the subject." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20384" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6114" RevisionGUID="4b5c8c29-3bd0-46da-8560-456bc94abea2" CreationDate="2020-01-02T06:20:39.547" UserId="2807" Text="Castration myths besides Ouranos" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20385" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6114" RevisionGUID="4b5c8c29-3bd0-46da-8560-456bc94abea2" CreationDate="2020-01-02T06:20:39.547" UserId="2807" Text="|myth-identification|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20386" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6115" RevisionGUID="071548d6-c879-4f2a-b61f-e48c4555ff68" CreationDate="2020-01-02T13:54:48.687" UserId="5726" Text="The story of [Cybele][1](Κυβηλη) and [Attis][2](Αττις)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;‘What causes the impulse [of the devotees of Cybele] to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **self-castrate**?’ I was silent. The Pierid Mousa (Muse) began : ‘A&#xD;&#xA;&gt; woodland Phrygian boy, the gorgeous Attis, conquered the towered&#xD;&#xA;&gt; goddess with pure love. She wanted to keep him as her shrine's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; guardian, and said, &quot;Desire to be a boy always.&quot; He promised what was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; asked and declared, &quot;If I lie, let the Venus [Aphrodite] I cheat with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; be my last.&quot; He cheats, and in the Nympha Sagaritis stops being what&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he was: the goddess' wrath punished him. She slashes the tree and cuts&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Naiad down. The Naiad dies: her fate was the tree's. He goes mad,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and imagines that the bedroom roof is falling and bolts to Dindymus'&#xD;&#xA;&gt; heights. He cries, &quot;Away torches!&quot;, &quot;Away whips!&quot;, and often swears&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Palestine goddesses have him. He even hacked his body with a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; jagged stone, and dragged his long hair in squalid dirt, shouting, &quot;I&#xD;&#xA;&gt; deserved it; my blood is the penalty. **Ah, death to the parts which&#xD;&#xA;&gt; have ruined me!&quot; &quot;Ah, death to them!&quot; he said, and cropped his groin's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; weight. Suddenly no signs of manhood remained.** His madness became a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; model: soft-skinned acolytes toss their hair and cut their worthless&#xD;&#xA;&gt; organs.’&quot; &lt;sub&gt;[Ovid, Fasti 4. 222 ff (trans.Boyle)][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pausanias also wrote :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&quot;The local [Phrygian] legend about Attis being this. Zeus [i.e. the Phrygian sky-god identified with Zeus], it is said, let fall in his sleep seed upon the ground, which in course of time sent up a Daimon, **with two sexual organs, male and female. They call the daimon Agdistis. But the gods, fearing Agdistis, cut off the male organ.** There grew up from it an almond-tree with its fruit ripe, and a daughter of the river Saggarios (Sangarius), they say, took the fruit and laid it in her bosom, when it at once disappeared, but she was with child. A boy was born, and exposed, but wastended by a he-goat. As he grew up his beauty was more than human, and Agdistis [Kybele] fell in love with him. When he had grown up, Attis was sent by his relatives to Pessinos [city in Phrygia], that he might wed the king's daughter. **The marriage-song was being sung, when Agdistis appeared, and Attis went mad and cut off his genitals**, as also did he who was giving him his daughter in marriage. But Agdistis repented of what she had done to Attis, and persuaded Zeus to grant the body of Attis should neither rot at all nor decay. These are the most popular forms of the legend of Attis.&quot; &lt;sub&gt;Pausanias, Description of Greece 7. 17. 8 (trans. Jones)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.theoi.com/Phrygios/Kybele.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.theoi.com/Phrygios/Attis.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20387" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5946" RevisionGUID="4a079dc0-2fce-48d2-a5ee-7c6bcaf17fff" CreationDate="2020-01-02T15:43:25.747" UserId="5726" Comment="improved formatting hyperlinks" Text="**Edit:** +1 - Thanks for the search...it's 'under my skin' and has me in personal review mode. On the spiritual path, these connections are gold.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not sure how &quot;deep&quot; these stories are [Unless you meant deeply embedded in human nature]. They seem to be longer expressions of the age-old saying, &quot;Cut off your nose to spite your face&quot;, meaning, &quot;hurt oneself in the course of trying to hurt another more&quot;. It's in the news every day. And, I suspect, part of everyone's life at some time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **[The Gridlock Economy: How Too Much Ownership Wrecks Markets, Stops][1] ...** By Michael Heller&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; A genie offers an [ ]entrepreneur one wish. Any wish. Big smiles. Then,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the genie gives one condition: “Whatever you wish for, your neighbor&#xD;&#xA;&gt; will get double.” Frowns. The entrepreneur thinks and thinks.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eventually, the smile returns. “I wish that you blind me in one eye.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Using basic search terms in Google, multiple hits were found. The earliest was 1921. However, the use of specific groups rather than generic peoples causes me to decline to post them. One version was quite 'twisted' - as are some versions in life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**[10 Scientific Facts About Spite][2]**&#xD;&#xA;BY NEEL V PATEL&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4. SPITEFUL BEHAVIOR COULD BE A SIGN OF PSYCHOPATHY. In psychology, the dark triad of personality traits are psychopathy (the inability to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; experience emotions like remorse, empathy, and be social with others),&#xD;&#xA;&gt; narcissism (the obsession with one’s self), and Machiavellianism&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (willingness to be duplicitous and **disregard morality to achieve one’s&#xD;&#xA;&gt; own goals**).&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In 2014, researchers at Washington State University, led by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; psychologist David Marcus, had more than 1200 participants take a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; personality test, in which they were presented with 17 statements like&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&quot;I would be willing to take a punch if it meant that someone I did not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; like would receive two punches&quot;** and &quot;If my neighbor complained about&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the appearance of my front yard, I would be tempted to make it look&#xD;&#xA;&gt; worse just to annoy him or her,&quot; then had to indicate how much they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; agreed with those statements.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The results, published in Psychological Assessment, showed that high&#xD;&#xA;&gt; scores in spitefulness correlated highly with psychopathy as well,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; along with the other two dark triad traits.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=ilKje10eRksC&amp;pg=PA100&amp;lpg=PA100&amp;dq=genie,%20wishes%20to%20be%20blinded%20in%20one%20eye&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=LXsO5emeTt&amp;sig=ACfU3U2N0reVsdrlDMgZq0qVIjLWV2RTww&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwjojuea4fnkAhUhrVkKHccVDTkQ6AEwAHoECAUQAQ#v=onepage&amp;q=genie%2C%20wishes%20to%20be%20blinded%20in%20one%20eye&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://mentalfloss.com/article/554980/scientific-facts-about-spite" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20388" PostHistoryTypeId="52" PostId="6114" RevisionGUID="1557a0d0-cc73-41f4-b29b-e96ba97c4b4a" CreationDate="2020-01-02T16:53:03.140" />
  <row Id="20389" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6116" RevisionGUID="3f9d56a3-c3f1-4a01-a45c-08f0cb2742ec" CreationDate="2020-01-02T17:23:30.347" UserId="6585" Text="Depending on your criteria, you may find the story of Osiris interesting. In Plutarch's ([wikilink][1]) version of the story, after Set (Osiris's  brother) had cut Osiris into many pieces and scattered them across the world, Osiris's wife, Isis, found all the pieces except his penis, which had been eaten by a fish.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Plutarch also states that Set steals and dismembers the corpse only after Isis has retrieved it. Isis then finds and buries each piece of her husband's body, with the exception of the penis, which she has to reconstruct with magic, because the original was eaten by fish in the river. According to Plutarch, this is the reason the Egyptians had a taboo against eating fish.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So possibly a case of castration by misadventure?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's possible that Plutarch's interpretation was inspired by another ancient Egyptian tale - The Tale Of Two Brothers ([wikilink][2]) from which the following excerpt is most relevant:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The story centers around two brothers: Anpu (Anubis), who is married, and the younger Bata. The brothers work together, farming land and raising cattle. One day, Anpu's wife attempts to seduce Bata. When he strongly rejects her advances, the wife tells her husband that his brother attempted to seduce her and beat her when she refused. In response to this, Anpu attempts to kill Bata, who flees and prays to Re-Harakhti to save him. The god creates a crocodile-infested lake between the two brothers, across which Bata is finally able to appeal to his brother and share his side of the events. To emphasize his sincerity, Bata severs his genitalia and throws them into the water, where a catfish eats them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you'll note, in this one the castration is central to the story and clearly intentional.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris_myth&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tale_of_Two_Brothers" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20390" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6093" RevisionGUID="abee6d23-5853-4076-9849-db7fc7e92f11" CreationDate="2020-01-02T20:43:43.957" UserId="5726" Comment="added 40 characters in body" Text="For questions pertaining female deities." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20391" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="6093" RevisionGUID="abee6d23-5853-4076-9849-db7fc7e92f11" CreationDate="2020-01-02T20:43:43.957" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 2774, 2892 edit id of 1792" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20392" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="376" RevisionGUID="658d2ba2-1067-4a26-bbfc-b6f6700e66f6" CreationDate="2020-01-03T01:47:17.113" UserId="3315" Comment="excerpts don't support formatting; the standard way of referring to tags in excerpts on Stack Exchange is just a pair of square brackets: https://meta.stackexchange.com/a/269503/295232" Text="For questions relating to the mythology of Sumer, the land of the Sumerians around the Euphrates and Tigris rivers, which was later called Mesopotamia by the Ancient Greeks. See also the [mesopotamia] tag." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20393" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="376" RevisionGUID="658d2ba2-1067-4a26-bbfc-b6f6700e66f6" CreationDate="2020-01-03T01:47:17.113" Comment="Proposed by 3315 approved by 5726, 2807 edit id of 1794" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20394" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="375" RevisionGUID="5f5109ab-f825-4fe2-a37c-8655392754b5" CreationDate="2020-01-03T01:47:31.900" UserId="3315" Comment="excerpts don't support formatting; the standard way of referring to tags in excerpts on Stack Exchange is just a pair of square brackets: https://meta.stackexchange.com/a/269503/295232" Text="For questions relating to the mythology of Sumer, the land of the Sumerians around the Euphrates and Tigris rivers, which was later called Mesopotamia by the Ancient Greeks. See also the [tag:mesopotamia] tag." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20395" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="375" RevisionGUID="5f5109ab-f825-4fe2-a37c-8655392754b5" CreationDate="2020-01-03T01:47:31.900" Comment="Proposed by 3315 approved by 5726, 2807 edit id of 1793" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20396" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6117" RevisionGUID="174f4a41-6436-488c-bfab-000a369a7962" CreationDate="2020-01-03T07:12:26.223" UserId="6588" Text="In the Poetic Edda, it's clear that Loki is different from the Aesir.  He descended from Ymir, whereas the Aesir did not.  It's possible that his rules are different from the Aesir's, too.  For example, he shape shifted into the female gender on several different occasions; whereas, the Aesir were never known to do that.  It seemed likely that he went for several years without eating an apple and he couldn't care less." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20397" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6118" RevisionGUID="fbfe740e-4d88-45bb-8665-2e953edfa108" CreationDate="2020-01-04T19:31:45.807" UserId="2807" Text="I've found this very interesting article in Wikipedia about [Kumarbi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumarbi).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kumarbi is the chief god of the Hurrians. He is the son of Anu (the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sky), and father of the storm-god Teshub. He was identified by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hurrians with Sumerian Enlil, by the Greeks as Kronos and by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ugaritians with El.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now things get interesting in terms of missing body parts:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The *Song of Kumarbi* or *Kingship in Heaven* [...] relates that Alalu&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was overthrown by Anu who was in turn overthrown by Kumarbi. **When&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Anu tried to escape, Kumarbi bit off his genitals and spat out three&#xD;&#xA;&gt; new gods.** In the text Anu tells his son that he is now pregnant with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Teshub, Tigris, and Tašmišu. Upon hearing this Kumarbi spit the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; semen upon the ground and it became impregnated with two children.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kumarbi is cut open to deliver Tešub. Together, Anu and Teshub depose&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kumarbi.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Wikipedia article finishes with this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; From the first publication of the *Kingship in Heaven* tablets scholars&#xD;&#xA;&gt; have pointed out the similarities between the Hurrian creation myth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and the story from Greek mythology of Uranus, Cronus, and Zeus." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20398" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6119" RevisionGUID="e30ad25e-b045-47ed-a419-f411f170ab06" CreationDate="2020-01-04T21:26:28.480" UserId="2682" Text="**One More Wife**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To complicate the issue yet a little bit further, if we take Plato's dialogue *Kritias* into account, Poseidon actually has *three* wives, not just two. According to the description of the foundation of Atlantis in *Kritias*, Poseidon was married to a certain Kleïto [Cleïto] who bore him five sets of twin sons who ruled the land, which was named Atlantis after the eldest of these brothers, called Atlas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There may, however, be a way to look at it so that, in spite of the extremely high profile wedding unions assigned to Poseidon with each of these three figures, he is not necessarily polygamous. Indeed Ancient Greek culture, despite the philandering, was typically monogamous, as were its deities, these entities being an enhanced projection of said culture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kleïto is perhaps the least problematic wrinkle herein, since it is relatively easy to solve her involvement with Poseidon chronologically: she was simply his primordial wife, before he had met Amphitrite. Kleïto appears to have been mortal (both her parents are described simply as Autokhthones [Autochthons], &quot;Earth-Sprung&quot; people), and her death (likely in old age), as well as the cataclysmic destruction of Atlantis, are probably supposed to have occurred long before Poseidon's [second] wedding.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Amphitrite in Other Literature**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story of Beroe's marriage to Poseidon appears in no other place apart from Nonnus' epic *Dionysiaka*, which on many points quite evidently seeks to imitate certain styles and tropes of the much older epic of Homer's *Iliad*. A feature shared by *Kritias*, the *Dionysiaka* and the *Iliad* is that Amphitrite fails to appear in any of them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Out of thirty-three Nereids named in the *Iliad*, Amphitrite is *not* one of them, which is quite surprising considering Poseidon's prominence in the poem on the one hand while, on the other hand, there is the fact that obscure but similarly-named Nereids like Amphinome and Amphithoe are granted *their* own *Iliad* cameos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Amphitrite is mentioned very few times in Homer's *Odyssey*, indeed as a major sea-goddess but never as Poseidon's wife. Neither the *Iliad* nor the *Odyssey* say anything about the more famous offspring of Poseidon and Amphitrite, namely the merman Triton and the sea-nymph Rhode. Homer simply does not seem to know of such a relationship between this Nereid and the Sea-King.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We do know, though, that as early as Hesiod's *Theogony*, which is supposed to be contemporaneous with Homer, Amphitrite is in fact known to have been married to Poseidon and borne him the afore-named children. While Nonnus never mentions Amphitrite, Triton does appear a few times in the *Dionysiaka*. In every source which mentions his parentage, he is always the son of Poseidon and Amphitrite. Presumably we are to understand him the same way here although Nonnus does not explicitly provide us with any familial link between the merman sea-god and anyone else. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are perhaps three different ways of interpreting this. One is that Amphitrite does exist in the *Dionysiaka* (somewhere so far in the background that she receives zero airtime), has borne Triton to Poseidon at some point, but was never married to him. So when Poseidon first encounters Beroe, he is a (somewhat) eligible bachelor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Nuptial Terminology in the *Dionysiaka***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A second interpretation would recognise the manner in which language about marriage is used by Nonnus, for whom it is almost standard that a sexual encounter equals some sort of conjugal union, no matter how brief the interaction between the partners. Nor in fact does it seem to matter in several cases that the encounter is not consensual. Most of the time that Nonnus mentions a bride or a bridegroom, there is obviously no wedding ceremony that has been officiated nor would anyone understand the couple in question to be legally married on any level beyond the bodily consummation having transpired. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Often in the *Dionysiaka* even the act of abduction before this consummation is a &quot;wedding,&quot; such as when Zeus takes Europa to Crete (3.323-324) or transforms into an eagle to kidnap the Naiad Aigina [Aegina] (8.247). Him carrying these women off makes each of them into his bride (*nýmphe*). Similar “bridal” terminology occurs in Book 13 when Apollon [Apollo] steals the Naiad Kyrene [Cyrene] away to Libya. In Book 8, Hera, having learned of the secret affair between Zeus and Dionysos' [Dionysus'] mother Semele, in a speech to Semele herself, says that the Theban princess is claiming Zeus as her bridegroom (*nymphíos*).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Incidentally, during the competition between Poseidon and Dionysos for Beroe, a similar affair between the Sea-King and a different woman is referred to, by Dionysos himself, as a wedding. This is in Book 42, when Dionysos is telling Beroe that Poseidon once disguised himself as the river-god Enipeus in order to have his way with the Thessalian princess Tyro, who was in love with Enipeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After Dionysos loses Beroe to Poseidon, Eros consoles him by telling him about a different prospect elsewhere, namely the Phrygian huntress Aura, whom Dionysos encounters in the 48th and last book of the epic. This book begins with Dionysos going to a lot of trouble in order to marry the Thracian princess Pallene, whom he seems to promptly forget about shortly after the wedding.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second half of the book is taken up with the sordid and grisly misadventure which Aura goes through when she gets raped in her sleep by Dionysos and gives birth especially painfully to his twin sons, one of whom she kills violently before being turned into a spring by Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All within this same book, four different characters are named as &quot;brides&quot; of Dionysos: Ariadne, whom he lost in his battle against his half-brother Perseus (in the previous book); Pallene, to whom he clearly seems to be legally wed; Nikaia [Nicaea], another Phrygian whom he had *also* raped in her sleep back in Book 16; and Aura, who, upon discovering her pregnancy, refers to herself as the god's bride, albeit in very negative terms, e.g. *dysgamē*, &quot;ill-wedded.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With Pallene most likely being mortal, it's possible that enough time has passed for her to grow old and die before Dionysos leaves Thrace to go find Aura in Phrygia. From this perspective, at any rate, marriage does not seem to be taken as seriously as one might otherwise expect, or its conventions are at least different. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nikaia is clearly still alive in Book 48, and, being from the same geographical region, she even helps Aura to give birth specifically because they are both victims of Dionysos forcing himself upon them. Towards the conclusion of all this Dionysos is &quot;triumphant and proud of his two Phrygian marriages, with the elder wife and the younger bride&quot;, i.e. Nikaia and Aura respectively. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With that, it is more plausible for Poseidon to actually be married to Amphitrite and Beroe at the same time. As loosely-held as that might make marriages here, however, it would in fact make Poseidon polygamous; and as with Dionysos and Pallene, the scene at the end of the contest between Poseidon and Dionysos does seem to be a full-on wedding.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Breaking Things Off**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There might yet be one more option. Divorce among the gods is not unheard-of. Zeus is the prime example in Hesiod's *Theogony*, where he gets married six separate times before (sort of) settling down with Hera. In the *Dionysiaka*, Phaethon, the son of Helios and Klymene [Clymene], grows up with his parents in apparently the same home. In earlier works, however (e.g. Ovid's *Metamorphoses* and Euripides' *Phaethon*), it appears that Klymene, who at one point is wed to Helios, later leaves him for King Merops of Aithiopia [Ethiopia], in whose court Phaethon grows up, perhaps never having met his biological father before growing up.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for Helios, he, on some later occasion, is betrothed to Rhode, who is usually a daughter of Poseidon and Amphitrite. But Asclepiades, in an one obscure source, says that *Helios* was her father, and presumably in that case she was not married to the Sun. It is not out of the question that Amphitrite had an affair with Helios, thus bearing him a child, but, as with previous examples, perhaps Asclepiades preserves here a tradition in which Helios was married to Amphitrite after she got a divorce from Poseidon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Almost all of the characters to whom Helios is ever said to have been married are Oceanids, and, as you note in your Question, Amphitrite is an Oceanid in at least one source. At any rate we do not require such a connection between Helios and Amphitrite in order for this sea-goddess to be divorced from Poseidon. Her marriage to the Sea-King could simply be over by the time that he is granted Beroe in *Dionysiaka* 43." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20399" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6120" RevisionGUID="f63737db-53e2-400a-8f7f-155f0193e598" CreationDate="2020-01-05T03:17:19.390" UserId="6589" Text="There are so many different answers to the, &quot;Who were Hades/Pluto and Persephone/Proserlina children?&quot; question that I'm not sure anymore if they even have children together at all.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One person on a mythological website said Hades was sterile.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia has The Erinyes listed in the children category but the history linked to them counters that. Describing them as older than the Olympians. &#xD;&#xA;Then there are:&#xD;&#xA;•Zagreus, who might be the actual son of Zeus when he may or may not have shifted into a snake and crawled into her cave bed when she was a virgin (before marrying Hades?).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;•Melinoë who might also be Zeus's child when he disguised himself as Hades and lay with Proserpina. Or, she might actually be Hades' because some said, &quot;Zeus and Hades are essentially two representations and different facets of the same god.&quot; So, she might really be his daughter with Persephone?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;•Macaria who seems to definitely have been Hades daughter but apparently no mother is mentioned.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;●Then there is Plutus {Ploutos}, who seems to be Plutus (no apparent name change) regardless of Greek or Roman mythology. &#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia says he is either Demeter's son with lasion (lowercase L was weird to me) OR Pluto and Persephone (they also used his (Hades/Pluto) Roman name, with her Greek name together, which I also found odd and confusing. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20400" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6120" RevisionGUID="f63737db-53e2-400a-8f7f-155f0193e598" CreationDate="2020-01-05T03:17:19.390" UserId="6589" Text="Was Plutus the son of Pluto and Proserpina?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20401" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6120" RevisionGUID="f63737db-53e2-400a-8f7f-155f0193e598" CreationDate="2020-01-05T03:17:19.390" UserId="6589" Text="|greek|roman|underworld|hades|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20402" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6120" RevisionGUID="9ec18a78-dcd0-4b6a-9411-5e3ba50056ee" CreationDate="2020-01-05T05:35:32.453" UserId="6589" Comment="added 7 characters in body" Text="There are so many different answers to the, &quot;Who were Hades/Pluto and Persephone/Proserlina children?&quot; question that I'm not sure anymore if they even had children together at all anymore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One person on a mythological website said Hades was sterile.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia has The Erinyes listed in the children category but the history linked to them counters that. Describing them as older than the Olympians. &#xD;&#xA;Then there are:&#xD;&#xA;•Zagreus, who might be the actual son of Zeus when he may or may not have shifted into a snake and crawled into her cave bed when she was a virgin (before marrying Hades?).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;•Melinoë who might also be Zeus's child when he disguised himself as Hades and lay with Proserpina. Or, she might actually be Hades' because some said, &quot;Zeus and Hades are essentially two representations and different facets of the same god.&quot; So, she might really be his daughter with Persephone?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;•Macaria who seems to definitely have been Hades daughter but apparently no mother is mentioned.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;●Then there is Plutus {Ploutos}, who seems to be Plutus (no apparent name change) regardless of Greek or Roman mythology. &#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia says he is either Demeter's son with lasion (lowercase L was weird to me) OR Pluto and Persephone (they also used his (Hades/Pluto) Roman name, with her Greek name together, which I also found odd and confusing. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20403" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6120" RevisionGUID="26e111fb-70cf-4b3c-8fa7-35e94f7296f2" CreationDate="2020-01-05T06:26:31.243" UserId="6589" Comment="deleted 8 characters in body" Text="There are so many different answers to the, &quot;Who were Hades/Pluto and Persephone/Proserlina children?&quot; question that I'm not sure if they even had children together at all anymore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One person on a mythological website said Hades was sterile.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia has The Erinyes listed in the children category but the history linked to them counters that. Describing them as older than the Olympians. &#xD;&#xA;Then there are:&#xD;&#xA;•Zagreus, who might be the actual son of Zeus when he may or may not have shifted into a snake and crawled into her cave bed when she was a virgin (before marrying Hades?).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;•Melinoë who might also be Zeus's child when he disguised himself as Hades and lay with Proserpina. Or, she might actually be Hades' because some said, &quot;Zeus and Hades are essentially two representations and different facets of the same god.&quot; So, she might really be his daughter with Persephone?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;•Macaria who seems to definitely have been Hades daughter but apparently no mother is mentioned.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;●Then there is Plutus {Ploutos}, who seems to be Plutus (no apparent name change) regardless of Greek or Roman mythology. &#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia says he is either Demeter's son with lasion (lowercase L was weird to me) OR Pluto and Persephone (they also used his (Hades/Pluto) Roman name, with her Greek name together, which I also found odd and confusing. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20405" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6120" RevisionGUID="b4fc1b7b-bb8d-4d08-bf4c-eb54f2d4e061" CreationDate="2020-01-05T13:38:14.040" UserId="5229" Comment="it isn't lowercase l https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iasion" Text="There are so many different answers to the, &quot;Who were Hades/Pluto and Persephone/Proserlina children?&quot; question that I'm not sure if they even had children together at all anymore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One person on a mythological website said Hades was sterile.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia has The Erinyes listed in the children category but the history linked to them counters that. Describing them as older than the Olympians. &#xD;&#xA;Then there are:&#xD;&#xA;•Zagreus, who might be the actual son of Zeus when he may or may not have shifted into a snake and crawled into her cave bed when she was a virgin (before marrying Hades?).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;•Melinoë who might also be Zeus's child when he disguised himself as Hades and lay with Proserpina. Or, she might actually be Hades' because some said, &quot;Zeus and Hades are essentially two representations and different facets of the same god.&quot; So, she might really be his daughter with Persephone?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;•Macaria who seems to definitely have been Hades daughter but apparently no mother is mentioned.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;●Then there is Plutus {Ploutos}, who seems to be Plutus (no apparent name change) regardless of Greek or Roman mythology. &#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia says he is either Demeter's son with Iasion OR Pluto and Persephone (they also used his (Hades/Pluto) Roman name, with her Greek name together, which I also found odd and confusing. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20406" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="6120" RevisionGUID="b4fc1b7b-bb8d-4d08-bf4c-eb54f2d4e061" CreationDate="2020-01-05T13:38:14.040" Comment="Proposed by 5229 approved by 53, 2807 edit id of 1796" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20407" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6120" RevisionGUID="0b66a928-7117-4a39-bc7d-7a9072a6859c" CreationDate="2020-01-05T17:37:44.967" UserId="5726" Comment="minor fixes " Text="There are so many different answers to the, &quot;Who were Hades/Pluto and Persephone/Prosperina children?&quot; question that I'm not sure if they even had children together at all anymore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One person on a mythological website said Hades was sterile.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia has The Erinyes listed in the children category but the history linked to them counters that. Describing them as older than the Olympians. &#xD;&#xA;Then there are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;•Zagreus, who might be the actual son of Zeus when he may or may not have shifted into a snake and crawled into her cave bed when she was a virgin (before marrying Hades?).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;•Melinoë who might also be Zeus's child when he disguised himself as Hades and lay with Proserpina. Or, she might actually be Hades' because some said, &quot;Zeus and Hades are essentially two representations and different facets of the same god.&quot; So, she might really be his daughter with Persephone?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;•Macaria who seems to definitely have been Hades daughter but apparently no mother is mentioned.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;●Then there is Plutus (Ploutos), who seems to be Plutus (no apparent name change) regardless of Greek or Roman mythology. &#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia says he is either Demeter's son with Iasion OR Pluto and Persephone (they also used his (Hades/Pluto) Roman name, with her Greek name together, which I also found odd and confusing. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Was Plutus the son of Pluto and Proserpina?**" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20417" PostHistoryTypeId="14" PostId="5452" RevisionGUID="0ff478b6-5618-4cdd-b180-a1628c6e5dfd" CreationDate="2020-01-07T19:40:03.077" UserId="57" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;yannis&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="20418" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="5452" RevisionGUID="b9098974-9717-4b63-9eb9-9740c532dee9" CreationDate="2020-01-07T19:40:03.077" UserId="57" Comment="97" />
  <row Id="20424" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6128" RevisionGUID="3dbc4d9d-5ed4-4cf5-a043-e68c62b4a19e" CreationDate="2020-01-09T11:38:07.073" UserId="6599" Text="My children are very curious as to how did Santa Claus appear. Surely, he could not be born as an ordinary man. I tried to find some story, but most information on the internet is concerned with 'historical account', how Santa became part of the Christmas tradition -- now what I really need.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, does anybody knows the suitable work of fiction or any story which would explain how Santa Claus and his elves came to existence?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20425" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6128" RevisionGUID="3dbc4d9d-5ed4-4cf5-a043-e68c62b4a19e" CreationDate="2020-01-09T11:38:07.073" UserId="6599" Text="How did Santa Claus appear in this world?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20426" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6128" RevisionGUID="3dbc4d9d-5ed4-4cf5-a043-e68c62b4a19e" CreationDate="2020-01-09T11:38:07.073" UserId="6599" Text="|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20427" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6128" RevisionGUID="27bf5ccd-9986-4134-a671-86818c7b8036" CreationDate="2020-01-09T12:28:10.680" UserId="-1" Comment="important typo now -&gt; not, plus grammar and tag" Text="My children are very curious as to how Santa Claus appeared. Surely, he could not be born as an ordinary man. I tried to find some story, but most information on the internet is concerned with 'historical account', how Santa became part of the Christmas tradition -- not what I really need.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, does anybody knows the suitable work of fiction or any story which would explain how Santa Claus and his elves came to existence?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20428" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="6128" RevisionGUID="27bf5ccd-9986-4134-a671-86818c7b8036" CreationDate="2020-01-09T12:28:10.680" UserId="-1" Comment="important typo now -&gt; not, plus grammar and tag" Text="|origins|christmas|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20429" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="6128" RevisionGUID="27bf5ccd-9986-4134-a671-86818c7b8036" CreationDate="2020-01-09T12:28:10.680" Comment="Proposed by anonymous approved by 6599 edit id of 1797" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20430" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6129" RevisionGUID="5f978971-240b-4e91-a961-3cfe718fe448" CreationDate="2020-01-09T13:02:45.897" UserId="4152" Text="There are two streams of narrative in the Santa Claus story, and thus two &quot;appearances&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first, of course, is the historical. Not exactly on-topic here, but you can research the historical figure, Nicholas of Myra, who was a bishop of that city in the third century. Known for his charity, he was recognised as a saint by the Church. Historically, he was obviously &quot;born as an ordinary man&quot; and would similarly have &quot;appeared&quot; as an ordinary man. Some folks measured &amp; studied his remains and came up with what they think he [might have looked like][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The other stream, of course, is the legendary &amp; mythological. The midwinter bringer of jollity and giver of gifts. This character is based on the earlier St. Nicholas matter. His iconography (red cloak, peaked hat and a staff) are all the standard signs of a Catholic bishop, which St. Nicholas was; and his modus operandi (secretly bringing gifts) seems also to be based on St. Nicholas's history.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Various early characters of the 15th through 18th centuries would help to give Santa Claus his basic appearance in Western culture -- Father Christmas, Sir Christmas, Lord of Christmas, etc. But the popular, modern appearance seems to have been founded upon the poem *“[A Visit from St. Nicholas][2]* by Clement Clarke Moore. It is here that Santa Claus per say appears out of the earlier Christian matter. Moore combines the Catholic saint with early American Dutch traditions and some earlier Odin mythology to create St. Nick anew.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As the decades went on, other stories and attributes got intertwined with the older figures. Santa Claus was found to have his workshops at the North Pole. He got his great book, listing all the children who have been naughty or nice. For quite a while, Santa appeared in a variety of costumes. Some were the more traditional garb of a bishop, others were more along the lines of a tinker or craftsman. Sometimes his great cloak was green or red or yellow or even patriotically star spangled. His size &amp; physique too were quite changeable: sometimes he was quite small, other times he was quite tall; he's been thin and fat and comfortably round.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The modern image wouldn't be cemented until the early 20th century: red, fur lined coat, red trousers, black boots, red fur lined peaked cap, with or without a pipe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as works go, you can't go wrong in looking back to Moore's poem. Be on the lookout for the images created by Thomas Nast in the 19th century. And of course, the *[Life and Adventures of Santa Claus][3]* by L. Frank Baum. Here you'll find excellent explanations and origin stories for many of his attributes, starting with his birth &amp; childhood and going right up to the time he was granted immortality.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.stnicholascenter.org/who-is-st-nicholas/real-face/how-he-may-have-looked&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://poets.org/poem/visit-st-nicholas&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Life_and_Adventures_of_Santa_Claus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20433" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6130" RevisionGUID="7d2868c4-3e73-4f0c-a26c-02b1ca787bfd" CreationDate="2020-01-10T15:43:45.673" UserId="6604" Text="THE ALGEA were the personified spirits (daimones) of pain and suffering--body and mind--, grief, sorrow and distress. They were the bringers of weeping and tears. The Algea were related to Oizys, the milder spirit of misery and sadness, and Penthos, the god of mourning and lamentation. &#xD;&#xA;In Greek mythology, Oizys (/ˈoʊɪzɪs/; Ancient Greek: Ὀϊζύς) is the goddess of misery, anxiety, grief, and depression. She is the daughter of Nyx, the goddess of night and the twin of the god Momos.[1] Her Latin name is Miseria, from which the English word 'misery' is derived. She is also the younger sister of the Greek personification of the day, Hemera. She is a minor goddess without a great cult following, but a primordial goddess of misery and depression with a certain amount of mythological weight nonetheless.&#xD;&#xA;Sorry, I can search my Egyptian and Roman books, but they tend to have Gods more associated in pleasure. The best names to look up are Hades - as he was the soul guarder and made many deals for the lives during his ownership. &#xD;&#xA;In Egyptian lore look up high priests as they had access to the book of the dead. The only God Osiris. He was master of the underworld.&#xD;&#xA;Other than that we have the african demons like the Tikoloshe and in some cultures the bogeyman. &#xD;&#xA;There was a movie called the babadook. Which was a monster made from grief. But legend and myth are not it's source. &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20434" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6131" RevisionGUID="5d6d8e95-9526-4ed5-a07e-748d13c57840" CreationDate="2020-01-10T16:04:15.073" UserId="6604" Text="Look at the Greek goddess Okays, she is the goddess of misery, grief and regret. Otherwise The Algea were the personifications of sorrow in Greek mythology, daughters of the goddess of strife, Eris.&#xD;&#xA;In African lore we have the Tikoloshe or bogeyman as most western cultures adopt it. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20435" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6132" RevisionGUID="53a06bf4-e269-4ecc-8cfb-64332e45a0e4" CreationDate="2020-01-11T00:40:23.080" UserId="6606" Text="i was thinking of a tattoo with nordic influence, i found this picture and i love it, but i need to know what does it says (if it says anthing), information about the symbols (like yggdrasill or the crows of odin) would be very apreciated&#xD;&#xA;thanks for your help and sorry for the broken english, its not my first languaje[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/M4tu0.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20436" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6132" RevisionGUID="53a06bf4-e269-4ecc-8cfb-64332e45a0e4" CreationDate="2020-01-11T00:40:23.080" UserId="6606" Text="what does this runes says?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20437" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6132" RevisionGUID="53a06bf4-e269-4ecc-8cfb-64332e45a0e4" CreationDate="2020-01-11T00:40:23.080" UserId="6606" Text="|norse|runes|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20438" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6133" RevisionGUID="de271f62-ef91-47ce-9556-5e557dc10cd2" CreationDate="2020-01-11T01:31:32.470" UserId="6607" Text="Nephilim can be called demigods. The sons of gods are also referred to as gods by God in Ps 82:6. The word god describes where a being resides not a name. God is elohim in hebrew. In Ps 82:1 God (Elohim) presides.... Ps 82:6 I said You are gods (elohim). 1 Sam 28:13 The king said to her, “Do not be afraid; but what do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a divine being (elohim) coming up out of the earth.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Elohim is a plural word like fish. Context tells us if we have 1 fish or 2 fish. Not there is no English word called fishes. lol&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So God, angels and spirits are all elohim but no elohim is Yahweh. Yahweh is species unique. So if a demigod is an elohim and human mixture then yes Nephilims meet that definition" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20439" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5239" RevisionGUID="225ab62a-600e-4779-88cf-48db42edd335" CreationDate="2020-01-11T23:56:20.830" UserDisplayName="user5459" Comment="edited title" Text="Myths/folktales/fairytales of areas/buildings/objects that disappear and reappear at fixed intervals?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20440" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6134" RevisionGUID="f2f07b3a-db73-454e-9609-ad3c424f2b14" CreationDate="2020-01-12T00:35:33.710" UserId="6608" Text="Title and rank amongst all the Angel's and exactly what his responsibility was" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20441" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6134" RevisionGUID="f2f07b3a-db73-454e-9609-ad3c424f2b14" CreationDate="2020-01-12T00:35:33.710" UserId="6608" Text="What would St.Michael be considered far as title/rank?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20442" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6134" RevisionGUID="f2f07b3a-db73-454e-9609-ad3c424f2b14" CreationDate="2020-01-12T00:35:33.710" UserId="6608" Text="|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20443" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6135" RevisionGUID="5420023a-0fb3-492c-ac54-90c067bbaa57" CreationDate="2020-01-12T14:16:28.047" UserId="5511" Text="The most appropriate mythological title from a historical source POV would be &quot;Jewish Prince of Heaven who was once the Babylonian King of Hell.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Archangel Michael is copied in both name and attributes from sources around at least 1600 BCE, a thousand years before he is ever mentioned in Judaism. He found his way into Hebrew via the Babylonian Exile in the fifth century BCE, and through neighbouring West Semitic cultures where he was a prominent chthonic martial deity called Mikal.So like many angels, Michael is a holdover from polytheistic times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mikal’s name came from an Akkadian word for “red” which was a poetic name for the planet Mars. This name was a title for both the Sumerian god Nergal (with whom Mikal was syncretized) and got taken by the Babylonian god Marduk as a result of the conquest of Sumer. The name is distinctly Semitic and the deity follows distinctly Canaanite mythic tropes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mikal was a warrior god of thunder, portrayed in full battle gear much like Michael is today. Unlike Michael he had a consort; the warrior goddess of love and sex, Anat. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mikal was the giver and taker of plague, and god of the underworld. He was the lord of the underworld and synonymous with the Babylonian god Nergal, who was the planet Mars, from whence Mikal got his name. The color red, especially in candles, is still canonically associated with the Archangel Michael to this day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are no explicit references to archangels in the canonical texts of the Hebrew Bible. In post-Biblical Judaism, certain angels came to take on a particular significance and developed unique personalities and roles. Though these archangels were believed to have ranked amongst the heavenly host, no systematic hierarchy ever developed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The New Testament makes over a hundred references to angels, but uses the word &quot;archangel&quot; only twice, at Thessalonians 4:16 (&quot;For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first&quot;, KJV) and Jude 1:9 (&quot;Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee&quot;, KJV).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, further proof of the Babylonian origin of Michael can be found in the oldest surviving forms of Christianity, such as the Coptic church, where his name is Ramuel, meaning &quot;Thunder of God&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/y7OQj.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/5atde.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20444" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6136" RevisionGUID="b261cdf0-4153-433f-bc66-b69096f6a345" CreationDate="2020-01-12T22:17:46.027" UserId="4152" Text="As explained, the runes say &quot;not all who wander are lost&quot; (in English and in a very nonrunic mode) a line referring to [Aragorn][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The two ravens are most likely Huginn and Muninn, Oðin's birds that would fly all over seeing what's to be seen.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The rune staff below seems to have originated in a 19th century collection of runic spells. [Description](https://guidetoiceland.is/history-culture/a-guide-to-icelandic-runes).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The interlocking triangles are the [valknutr](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valknut), a widespread Germanic symbol.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The runes on either side of the tree are jera (year) and dagaz (day) and are [elder futhark][2]. The tree could very well be Yggdrasil, the worldtree.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/229-all-that-is-gold-does-not-glitter-not-all-those&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elder_Futhark" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20445" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6132" RevisionGUID="e47f2653-1a52-4d72-8b6f-9ce80b11c005" CreationDate="2020-01-13T06:26:51.047" UserId="5726" Comment="edited body; edited title" Text="I was thinking of a tattoo with nordic influence, I found this picture and I love it, but I need to know what it says (if it says anything), information about the symbols (like yggdrasill or the crows of odin) would be very appreciated. &#xD;&#xA;Thanks for your help and sorry for the broken english, its not my first language [![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/M4tu0.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20446" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="6132" RevisionGUID="e47f2653-1a52-4d72-8b6f-9ce80b11c005" CreationDate="2020-01-13T06:26:51.047" UserId="5726" Comment="edited body; edited title" Text="what does these runes say?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20447" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4820" RevisionGUID="1e858c20-5d71-4b3b-9788-0d5d0f66e84b" CreationDate="2020-01-13T11:01:30.257" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="20448" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6137" RevisionGUID="d2d73bde-e46e-4109-a30e-c84cbf7de495" CreationDate="2020-01-13T16:36:05.387" UserId="2897" Text="Something definetly with snow and ice:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to some, the Aymaran creator god was the snow god, Kun.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Angry at human beings, Kun once covered creation with snow and ice,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and nothing but evil spirits could survive on the frozen world. After&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this ice flood, it was the gods of fertility who sent their sons, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eagle Men, to create a new people, the Paka-Jakes, who still live near&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lake Titicaca.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Leeming, David A. (1994). Creation Myths of the World&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Personally, I think every Heaven-Earth Separation story is about the last glacial period. Specifically about people living in glaciers in expanses between the heaven-ice (heaven/firmament are solid in this stories) and earth. Read for example some native american creation myths with this analogy and judge for your self. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I like this part of a Krachi creation myth, containing mundane details of everyday life in an glacier (according to my interpretation):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the beginning Wulbari (Heaven· male) lived on top of Asase Ya&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Earth· female). Man lived between them, but with little room to move.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Man's squirming irritated Wulbari so much that he left and went up&#xD;&#xA;&gt; above. One of the things that bothered Wulbari was an old woman who,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; when grinding maize, kept hitting him with her pestle, and the smoke&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from the cooking fires bothered his eyes. Some say that Wulbari was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; annoyed because men would sometimes wipe their dirty hands on him. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Krachi people say that there was an old woman who used to cut off bits&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Wulbari to flavor her soup.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Leeming, David A. (1994). Creation Myths of the World&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Btw: Shiva has a blue throat, which is the color of glaciers from the inside, white or gray skin and is associated with ice. &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20449" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6137" RevisionGUID="db993de0-9c46-4a8a-8ff7-549c245d464c" CreationDate="2020-01-13T16:42:42.713" UserId="2897" Comment="added 65 characters in body" Text="Something definetly with snow and ice:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to some, the Aymaran creator god was the snow god, Kun.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Angry at human beings, Kun once covered creation with snow and ice,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and nothing but evil spirits could survive on the frozen world. After&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this ice flood, it was the gods of fertility who sent their sons, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eagle Men, to create a new people, the Paka-Jakes, who still live near&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lake Titicaca.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Leeming, David A. (1994). Creation Myths of the World&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Personally, I think every Heaven-Earth Separation story is about the last glacial period. Specifically about people living in glaciers in expanses between the heaven-ice (heaven/firmament are solid in this stories) and earth. Read for example some native american creation myths with this analogy and judge for your self. They are found all around the world, even in places like Ghana...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I like this part of a Krachi creation myth, containing mundane details of everyday life in an glacier (according to my interpretation):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the beginning Wulbari (Heaven· male) lived on top of Asase Ya&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Earth· female). Man lived between them, but with little room to move.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Man's squirming irritated Wulbari so much that he left and went up&#xD;&#xA;&gt; above. One of the things that bothered Wulbari was an old woman who,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; when grinding maize, kept hitting him with her pestle, and the smoke&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from the cooking fires bothered his eyes. Some say that Wulbari was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; annoyed because men would sometimes wipe their dirty hands on him. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Krachi people say that there was an old woman who used to cut off bits&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Wulbari to flavor her soup.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Leeming, David A. (1994). Creation Myths of the World&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Btw: Shiva has a blue throat, which is the color of glaciers from the inside, white or gray skin and is associated with ice. &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20450" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5239" RevisionGUID="ec0187d7-b712-4989-81a4-7a48f76571bf" CreationDate="2020-01-13T21:44:49.057" UserDisplayName="user5459" Comment="added 34 characters in body" Text="I remember back when I was young that I saw an episode of Smurfs featuring a castle that disappears and reappears each few centuries and when, more recently, I thought about the whole concept of something disappearing and reappearing like this I became somewhat interested in stories with it. So are there any such stories and where can I find them?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;EDIT (In order to clarify what I said): By disappearance I mean vanishing into thin air in such a way that something no longer is anywhere in this world (not even behind fog/mist, under water or hidden in general). It's seemingly non-existent or in some kind of &quot;Nothingness&quot; area." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20455" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="5452" RevisionGUID="9840e3ca-25d4-4559-ad32-67f1f73aa7c4" CreationDate="2020-01-14T20:01:45.237" UserId="-1" Comment="97" />
  <row Id="20456" PostHistoryTypeId="15" PostId="5452" RevisionGUID="1a8dfe12-cd8d-407f-9446-62170c032f5a" CreationDate="2020-01-14T20:01:45.237" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="20457" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6134" RevisionGUID="2512ed52-f087-4121-967a-7d37243304df" CreationDate="2020-01-15T23:40:47.497" UserId="1241" Comment="added 33 characters in body; edited title; edited tags" Text="What is the title and rank of St. Michael amongst all the Angels and exactly what is or was his responsibility?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20458" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="6134" RevisionGUID="2512ed52-f087-4121-967a-7d37243304df" CreationDate="2020-01-15T23:40:47.497" UserId="1241" Comment="added 33 characters in body; edited title; edited tags" Text="What would St. Michael be considered far as title/rank?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20459" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="6134" RevisionGUID="2512ed52-f087-4121-967a-7d37243304df" CreationDate="2020-01-15T23:40:47.497" UserId="1241" Comment="added 33 characters in body; edited title; edited tags" Text="|origins|angels|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20460" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6132" RevisionGUID="9ecf6f59-d71d-44cb-a79f-4de06bb3e26b" CreationDate="2020-01-15T23:57:20.993" UserId="1241" Comment="added 12 characters in body; edited title" Text="I was thinking of a tattoo with Nordic influence, I found this picture and I love it, but I need to know what it says (if it says anything), information about the symbols (like Yggdrasil or the Crows  of Odin) would be very appreciated. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks for your help and sorry for the broken English as it is not my first language.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/M4tu0.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20461" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="6132" RevisionGUID="9ecf6f59-d71d-44cb-a79f-4de06bb3e26b" CreationDate="2020-01-15T23:57:20.993" UserId="1241" Comment="added 12 characters in body; edited title" Text="What does these runes say?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20463" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5857" RevisionGUID="562259e4-8141-4456-9101-5d1f70ca8d12" CreationDate="2020-01-18T01:02:30.357" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="20464" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3185" RevisionGUID="94b57d1f-6e71-42dc-a9fb-f81f4a64d440" CreationDate="2020-01-18T02:01:55.190" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="20475" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6143" RevisionGUID="88016d44-f3cf-4aad-8b37-c211506d6ee2" CreationDate="2020-01-21T21:22:27.160" UserId="5710" Text="This is something very usual to happen in old stories, specially the mythological ones. They have a dream-like logic and a dream-like inconsistency. The latter is clear, for example, when talking about sizes, Ferir may be a normal sized wolf when tied down by the æsir, but he is sometimes described as having a jaw that can touch the sky when open and so on. So, the fact that Loki needs to take Freyja's  coat has no special reason rather than to tell a story with underlying meanings and making it reasonable.&#xD;&#xA;Why would Þórr just kick Litr into the pyre where they were burning Baldr? Why would Sigurðr say to Fáfnir that he wouldn't tell him his name nor his father's name and then right after tell these things to Fáfnir? &#xD;&#xA;It has no right answer now (there could be an old lost myth where it is explained why Loki needs to take it or why can't he just turn into a bird right away, or maybe Loki never had shape shifting abilities in some traditions and had to borrow magical things to do so), and, unfortunately, it may never have had a clear reason." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20476" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6144" RevisionGUID="f88f0927-cd58-4a3f-af09-c61d568ab56d" CreationDate="2020-01-22T03:56:28.750" UserId="6625" Text="In the Russian folk tale of “Ivan Sosnovich”, it says that the evil Koschei the Deathless put an **entire kingdom** to sleep (or petrified) bia a spell after killing two of the three beauties he heard about and wounding the third. My question is: how big was the area of the spell exactly to grab ALL of the kingdom? Is there any type of real life Russian kingdom to measure and compare to the one that Koschei cursed?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20477" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6144" RevisionGUID="f88f0927-cd58-4a3f-af09-c61d568ab56d" CreationDate="2020-01-22T03:56:28.750" UserId="6625" Text="Koschei's Sleeping/Petrification Spell Area" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20478" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6144" RevisionGUID="f88f0927-cd58-4a3f-af09-c61d568ab56d" CreationDate="2020-01-22T03:56:28.750" UserId="6625" Text="|folklore|magic|russian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20479" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6143" RevisionGUID="5980bb6a-204e-441f-88d6-2afc56f08dae" CreationDate="2020-01-22T13:23:43.287" UserId="5710" Comment="added 3 characters in body" Text="This is something very usual to happen in old stories, specially in the mythological ones. They have a dream-like logic and a dream-like inconsistency. The latter is clear, for example, when talking about sizes, Ferir may be a normal sized wolf when tied down by the æsir, but he is sometimes described as having a jaw that can touch the sky when open and so on. So, the fact that Loki needs to take Freyja's  coat has no special reason rather than to tell a story with underlying meanings and making it reasonable.&#xD;&#xA;Why would Þórr just kick Litr into the pyre where they were burning Baldr? Why would Sigurðr say to Fáfnir that he wouldn't tell him his name nor his father's name and then right after tell these things to Fáfnir? &#xD;&#xA;It has no right answer now (there could be an old lost myth where it is explained why Loki needs to take it or why can't he just turn into a bird right away, or maybe Loki never had shape shifting abilities in some traditions and had to borrow magical things to do so), and, unfortunately, it may never have had a clear reason." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20480" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6143" RevisionGUID="1b7bae19-2abd-4f73-ac80-76b6a426800b" CreationDate="2020-01-22T17:09:10.437" UserId="5726" Comment="added 8 characters in body" Text="This is something very usual to happen in old stories, specially in the mythological ones. They have a dream-like logic and a dream-like inconsistency. The latter is clear, for example, when talking about sizes, Fenrir may be a normal sized wolf when tied down by the æsir, but he is sometimes described as having a jaw that can touch the sky when open and so on.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; So, the fact that Loki needs to take Freyja's coat has no special reason rather than to tell a story with underlying meanings and making it reasonable.&#xD;&#xA;Why would Þórr just kick Litr into the pyre where they were burning Baldr? Why would Sigurðr say to Fáfnir that he wouldn't tell him his name nor his father's name and then right after tell these things to Fáfnir? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It has no right answer now (there could be an old lost myth where it is explained why Loki needs to take it or why can't he just turn into a bird right away, or maybe Loki never had shape shifting abilities in some traditions and had to borrow magical things to do so), and, unfortunately, it may never have had a clear reason." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20481" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6145" RevisionGUID="e3cb8644-7bb9-477e-8ff8-103abfde537c" CreationDate="2020-01-22T17:41:49.500" UserId="6626" Text="I have read about the Maenads, how they were insane followers of the god Dionysus, that their names literally meant &quot;the raving ones&quot; and that they were frequently in a state of ecstatic intoxication. Are there any tales about them doing activities that are exceptionally insane and what lead to the Maenads being such crazy followers of the god of wine and parties?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20482" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6145" RevisionGUID="e3cb8644-7bb9-477e-8ff8-103abfde537c" CreationDate="2020-01-22T17:41:49.500" UserId="6626" Text="How crazy are the Maenads from Greek Mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20483" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6145" RevisionGUID="e3cb8644-7bb9-477e-8ff8-103abfde537c" CreationDate="2020-01-22T17:41:49.500" UserId="6626" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|dionysus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20484" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6146" RevisionGUID="48960c9b-00d8-450e-849c-1fe3de242480" CreationDate="2020-01-22T20:50:30.367" UserId="6627" Text="You cannot deny the Hebrew-Sumerian connection, for example: in creation, both stories identify creation of modern man as the Adamu (derived from Adam); then, there was Abraham who was raised up from Ur of the Chaldeans." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20486" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6148" RevisionGUID="cc5d43b7-46c4-42af-8f14-313c76b2bdfc" CreationDate="2020-01-24T09:09:15.917" UserId="1564" Text="They weren't just insane followers, they were supposedly nurses too. They were mad because of alcohols and drugs, and showed the &quot;dark&quot; side of the party. Sometimes, drinking too much cause violence, sometimes violence cause death. &quot;Real&quot; followers of Dyonisos tried to emulate their madness with mushrooms and other psychotropes. For some reason, this is cited in the french wiki article but not in the english one ([aforementioned french menead article][1])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;About their most crazy acts in myths, they're very rare actually. Some greek hero had to chase them and they moved weirdly, bending unnaturaly etc, but I sadly doubt any tales is centered about them. The wikipedia articles are kinda well documented, this could be a good start even though it's not perfect &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A9nades" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20487" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6149" RevisionGUID="0cd82fb3-e8bc-4770-a548-a7037f18533b" CreationDate="2020-01-24T12:15:05.487" UserId="6633" Text="it's been over twenty years when I was reading about the story of Narcissus.  I don't have any of my notes or references saved, but I distinctly remembered I read one or two stories mentioning Narcissus had a twin sister.  Can anyone tell me if this is true and if there is literature on this or was it just my imagination? TIA. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20488" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6149" RevisionGUID="0cd82fb3-e8bc-4770-a548-a7037f18533b" CreationDate="2020-01-24T12:15:05.487" UserId="6633" Text="The story of Narcissus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20489" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6149" RevisionGUID="0cd82fb3-e8bc-4770-a548-a7037f18533b" CreationDate="2020-01-24T12:15:05.487" UserId="6633" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20490" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6150" RevisionGUID="83bc74ba-d439-429d-b624-cd9bcccc36f4" CreationDate="2020-01-24T13:39:01.137" UserId="5726" Text="The ancient Greek writer and geographer [Pausanias][1] recorded a variant of the well know story of [Narcissus][2] falling in love with himself, in which Narcissus falls in love with his twin sister rather than himself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [9.31.8] There is another story about Narcissus, less popular indeed than the other, but not without some support. It is said that Narcissus had a twin sister; they were exactly alike in appearance, their hair was the same, they wore similar clothes, and went hunting together. The story goes on that Narcissus fell in love with his sister, and when the girl died, would go to the spring, knowing that it was his reflection that he saw, but in spite of this knowledge finding some relief for his love in imagining that he saw, not his own reflection, but the likeness of his sister.&lt;sub&gt;[Guide to Greece, 9.31.8][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pausanias_(geographer)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissus_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.theoi.com/Text/Pausanias9B.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20491" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6151" RevisionGUID="deed4809-5d9d-44ea-85cc-613422eb7a9d" CreationDate="2020-01-24T17:08:43.877" UserId="3307" Text="Why did the Romans name the planets Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn after their gods? Or did they consider these planets those gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20492" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6151" RevisionGUID="deed4809-5d9d-44ea-85cc-613422eb7a9d" CreationDate="2020-01-24T17:08:43.877" UserId="3307" Text="Why did the Romans name the planets after their gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20493" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6151" RevisionGUID="deed4809-5d9d-44ea-85cc-613422eb7a9d" CreationDate="2020-01-24T17:08:43.877" UserId="3307" Text="|roman|names|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20504" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6153" RevisionGUID="2dceeca4-03e6-4a79-b324-a410d08495a0" CreationDate="2020-01-25T13:05:03.050" UserId="5511" Text="The Romans were not the first and only to apply this practice. The seven classical planets (visible to the naked eye, 5 of which today are considered actual planets) were named after deities in Sumerian, Akkadian, Egyptian, and Chinese astronomy long before the Greek/Roman nomenclature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These five planets were identified with the gods of the Babylonian pantheon as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Jupiter with Marduk,&#xD;&#xA; - Venus with the goddess Ishtar,&#xD;&#xA; - Saturn with Ninurta (Ninib),&#xD;&#xA; - Mercury with Nabu (Nebo),&#xD;&#xA; - Mars with Nergal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Ancient Egypt, the sun and planets were associated with deities as well:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The Sun with Ra,&#xD;&#xA; - Mercury with Seth,&#xD;&#xA; - Venus with Khepri,&#xD;&#xA; - Mars with Horus the Red,&#xD;&#xA; - Jupiter with Horus who illuminates the Two Lands,&#xD;&#xA; - Saturn with Horus, Bull of the Sky&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the specific naming of the planets in Latin, the strongest influence is, of course, the Greek nomenclature (which itself is influenced by Indian astronomy). The naming is an exact match for the Roman equivalents of the Greek deities except for Saturn, which the Greeks named after a Titan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Sun – Helios: the Greek name of the Sun, the center of our solar system.&#xD;&#xA; - Earth – Ge (from the ancient Greek name Gaia or Gaea). Gaia was the great mother of all, creator and giver of birth to the Earth and all the Universe, the heavenly gods, the Titans, and the Giants. The gods were born from her union with Uranus (the sky), while the sea-gods were born from her union with Pontus (the sea).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Mercury – Ermis: the Greek name of the planet Mercury, which is the closest planet to the sun. It is named after the Greek God of commerce, Ermis or Hermes, who was also the messenger of the Ancient Greek gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Venus – Aphrodite: the Greek name of the planet Venus, which is named after Aphrodite, the goddess of Love.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Mars – Aris: the Greek name of the planet Mars, the fourth planet from the sun, also known as the Red planet. Aris or Ares was the Greek god of War.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Jupiter – Dias: the fifth planet from the sun, is the largest planet in our solar system. In Greek the name of the planet Jupiter is Dias, the Greek name of god Zeus. &#xD;&#xA;Jupiter has many moons orbiting around the planet. The largest one is Ganymede and it is named after Ganymedes, the hero of the Greek mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Saturn – Kronos: the second largest planet of our system and the sixth planet from the sun. The Greek name of the planet Saturn is Kronos. The  Titan Cronus was the father of Zeus, while Saturn was the Roman God of agriculture." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20506" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6155" RevisionGUID="f15d21fc-4515-4cfc-8c04-69548bc228ea" CreationDate="2020-01-26T00:42:24.283" UserId="1241" Text="**Why did the Romans name the planets after their gods?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Roman mythology, the Roman gods lived on [Mount Olympos][1], in Greece.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Mount Olympus][2] is the highest mountain in Greece. It is located in the Olympus Range on the border between Thessaly and Macedonia, between the regional units of Pieria and Larissa, about 80 km (50 mi) southwest from Thessaloniki. Mount Olympus has 52 peaks and deep gorges. The  highest peak, Mytikas (Μύτικας Mýtikas), meaning &quot;nose&quot;, rises to 2,917 metres (9,570 ft). It is one of the highest peaks in Europe in terms of topographic prominence.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Name and mythological associations**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The origin of the name Όλυμπος Olumpos is unknown and usually considered of &quot;pre-Greek&quot; origin. In Homeric Greek (Odyssey 6.42), the variant Οὔλυμπος Oulumpos occurs, conceived of as the seat of the gods (and not identified with any specific peak). Homer (Iliad 5.754, Odyssey 20.103) also appears to be using οὔλυμπος as a common noun, as a synonym of οὐρανός ouranos &quot;sky&quot;. Mt Olympus was historically also known as Mount Belus, after Iliad 1.591, where the seat of the gods is referred to as βηλ[ός] θεσπεσίο[ς] &quot;heavenly threshold&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Ancient Greek religion and mythology, &quot;Olympus&quot; was the name of the **home of the Twelve Olympian gods of the Ancient Greek world.** This was conceived of as a lofty mountaintop, and in all regions settled by Greek tribes, the highest local elevation tended to be so named; among the numerous peaks called Olumpos in antiquity are mountains in Mysia, Laconia, Lycia, Cyprus, Attica, Euboea, Ionia and Lesbos, and others. Thessalian Olympus is the highest peak in any territory with Greek settlement and came to be seen as the &quot;Pan-Hellenic&quot; representative of the mythological seat of the gods, by at least the 5th century BC, as Herodotus (1.56) identifies Olympus as the peak in Thessaly.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Pieria, at Olympus's northern foot, the mythological tradition had placed the nine Muses, patrons of the Fine Arts, daughters of Zeus and the Titanide Mnemosyne.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since the Romans believed that their gods lived on Mt. Olympus, the naming of the planets came from following the Babylonian tradition of doing so.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Most ancient cultures recognized seven “planets” consisting of sun and moon and the five planets visible in the sky. The Latin names of the Planets were simple translations of the Greek names, which in turn were translations of the Babylonian names, which go back to the Sumerians. Some interpretation was required for the Greek, and even for the Babylonian, translations, however. Nergal, for instance, was the god of war but also of pestilence and, especially, the Underworld —overlapping with the Greek Hades. While Kronos was the father of Zeus, Ninurta was the son of Enlil. The Babylonians replaced the Sumerian national gods Enlil and Enki with the patron god of Babylon, Marduk, and his son, Nabû — though Marduk was actually taken to be the son of Enki (called Ea in Babylonian). Ninurta, an obscure god inherited by the Babylonians, may have been identified with Saturn, the slowest moving visible planet, because, at least in one story, he was identified with the turtle. The ancient Egyptian, Sanskrit, and Chinese names for the planets are unrelated to the Sumerian. - [Names of the Planets][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In ancient times the planets were known as wanderers in the sky. For they seemed to move amongst the star and thus symbolized their movements amongst men with the names of their gods in the heavens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thousands of years ago, ancient civilizations turned to the heavens, marveling at their wonders. These ancient people worshipped various gods and often linked their gods with planets in the sky, which they considered to be “wandering stars.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Mercury** gets its name from the winged messenger of the gods. He was also the god of thievery, commerce, and travel. Most likely, **the planet got its name from the rate at which it spins.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Venus** was the Roman goddess of love and beauty, so **it is a fitting name for this brightly shining planet.** The only objects in our Solar System brighter than Venus are the Sun and the Moon. Ancient civilizations thought that Venus was two different objects – the Morning Star and the Evening Star. Other civilizations have also associated the planet with love. The Babylonians called the planet Ishtar after their goddess of womanhood and love.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Earth** is the only planet not named after a Roman god or goddess, but **it is associated with the goddess Terra Mater (Gaea to the Greeks).** In mythology, she was the first goddess on Earth and the mother of Uranus. The name Earth comes from Old English and Germanic. It is derived from “eor(th)e” and “ertha,” which mean “ground.” Other civilizations all over the world also developed terms for our planet.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Mars** is named after the Roman god of war. The planet got **its name from the fact that it is the color of blood.**  Other civilizations also named the planets for its red color.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Jupiter** was the Roman king of the gods. Considering that **Jupiter is the largest planet in our Solar System, it makes sense that the planet was named after the most important god.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Saturn** was named after the Roman god of agriculture and harvest. While the planet may have gotten **its name from its golden color**, like a field of wheat, it also had to do with its position in the sky. According to mythology, the god Saturn stole the position of king of the gods from his father Uranus. The throne was then stolen by Jupiter.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Uranus** was not discovered until the 1800’s, but the astronomers in that time period continued the tradition of naming planets after Roman gods. **In mythology, Uranus was the father of Saturn and was at one time the king of the gods.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Neptune** almost ended up being named after one of the astronomers credited with discovering it – Verrier – that was greatly disputed, so **it was named after the god of the sea.** The name was probably inspired by its blue color.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Pluto** is no longer a planet, but it used to be. **The dark, cold, former planet was named after the god of the underworld.** The first two letters of Pluto are also the initials of the man who predicted  its existence, Percival Lowell.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/742/1241&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Olympus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://babylonian%20gods%20planets" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20507" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="6151" RevisionGUID="e5b3f0a2-94b9-4b7e-b4b6-7a7b4430ff89" CreationDate="2020-01-26T00:44:32.537" UserId="1241" Comment="edited tags" Text="|roman|names|planets|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20508" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6156" RevisionGUID="4ded29a7-ae1f-46f4-8f26-5b94d4c99185" CreationDate="2020-01-26T15:55:49.760" UserId="5511" Text="Not really. Although Shinto rituals involve giving thanks with the implication that giving thanks will bring good things in the future, fate as we generally define it is a novel idea in Japanese culture. There is a Shinto superstition that says if you ask &quot;what if&quot; questions they will come true, but it doesn't attribute this to fate deities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Having said that, there is Daoist influence on Shinto (and other Japanese religions such as Shugendo), and in Daoism there are 60 fate deities, who all govern fate for specific years with 60 year intervals. [The full list can be found here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_and_fate_deities#Daoism).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20509" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6155" RevisionGUID="a330c21e-723a-44a6-90f8-e8ad0f26bae3" CreationDate="2020-01-26T22:20:12.270" UserId="3307" Comment="fixed URLs" Text="**Why did the Romans name the planets after their gods?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Roman mythology, the Roman gods lived on [Mount Olympos][1], in Greece.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Mount Olympus][2] is the highest mountain in Greece. It is located in the Olympus Range on the border between Thessaly and Macedonia, between the regional units of Pieria and Larissa, about 80 km (50 mi) southwest from Thessaloniki. Mount Olympus has 52 peaks and deep gorges. The  highest peak, Mytikas (Μύτικας Mýtikas), meaning &quot;nose&quot;, rises to 2,917 metres (9,570 ft). It is one of the highest peaks in Europe in terms of topographic prominence.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Name and mythological associations**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The origin of the name Όλυμπος Olumpos is unknown and usually considered of &quot;pre-Greek&quot; origin. In Homeric Greek (Odyssey 6.42), the variant Οὔλυμπος Oulumpos occurs, conceived of as the seat of the gods (and not identified with any specific peak). Homer (Iliad 5.754, Odyssey 20.103) also appears to be using οὔλυμπος as a common noun, as a synonym of οὐρανός ouranos &quot;sky&quot;. Mt Olympus was historically also known as Mount Belus, after Iliad 1.591, where the seat of the gods is referred to as βηλ[ός] θεσπεσίο[ς] &quot;heavenly threshold&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Ancient Greek religion and mythology, &quot;Olympus&quot; was the name of the **home of the Twelve Olympian gods of the Ancient Greek world.** This was conceived of as a lofty mountaintop, and in all regions settled by Greek tribes, the highest local elevation tended to be so named; among the numerous peaks called Olumpos in antiquity are mountains in Mysia, Laconia, Lycia, Cyprus, Attica, Euboea, Ionia and Lesbos, and others. Thessalian Olympus is the highest peak in any territory with Greek settlement and came to be seen as the &quot;Pan-Hellenic&quot; representative of the mythological seat of the gods, by at least the 5th century BC, as Herodotus (1.56) identifies Olympus as the peak in Thessaly.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Pieria, at Olympus's northern foot, the mythological tradition had placed the nine Muses, patrons of the Fine Arts, daughters of Zeus and the Titanide Mnemosyne.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since the Romans believed that their gods lived on Mt. Olympus, the naming of the planets came from following the Babylonian tradition of doing so.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Most ancient cultures recognized seven “planets” consisting of sun and moon and the five planets visible in the sky. The Latin names of the Planets were simple translations of the Greek names, which in turn were translations of the Babylonian names, which go back to the Sumerians. Some interpretation was required for the Greek, and even for the Babylonian, translations, however. Nergal, for instance, was the god of war but also of pestilence and, especially, the Underworld —overlapping with the Greek Hades. While Kronos was the father of Zeus, Ninurta was the son of Enlil. The Babylonians replaced the Sumerian national gods Enlil and Enki with the patron god of Babylon, Marduk, and his son, Nabû — though Marduk was actually taken to be the son of Enki (called Ea in Babylonian). Ninurta, an obscure god inherited by the Babylonians, may have been identified with Saturn, the slowest moving visible planet, because, at least in one story, he was identified with the turtle. The ancient Egyptian, Sanskrit, and Chinese names for the planets are unrelated to the Sumerian. - [Names of the Planets][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In ancient times the planets were known as wanderers in the sky. For they seemed to move amongst the star and thus symbolized their movements amongst men with the names of their gods in the heavens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thousands of years ago, ancient civilizations turned to the heavens, marveling at their wonders. These ancient people worshipped various gods and often linked their gods with planets in the sky, which they considered to be “wandering stars.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Mercury** gets its name from the winged messenger of the gods. He was also the god of thievery, commerce, and travel. Most likely, **the planet got its name from the rate at which it spins.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Venus** was the Roman goddess of love and beauty, so **it is a fitting name for this brightly shining planet.** The only objects in our Solar System brighter than Venus are the Sun and the Moon. Ancient civilizations thought that Venus was two different objects – the Morning Star and the Evening Star. Other civilizations have also associated the planet with love. The Babylonians called the planet Ishtar after their goddess of womanhood and love.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Earth** is the only planet not named after a Roman god or goddess, but **it is associated with the goddess Terra Mater (Gaea to the Greeks).** In mythology, she was the first goddess on Earth and the mother of Uranus. The name Earth comes from Old English and Germanic. It is derived from “eor(th)e” and “ertha,” which mean “ground.” Other civilizations all over the world also developed terms for our planet.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Mars** is named after the Roman god of war. The planet got **its name from the fact that it is the color of blood.**  Other civilizations also named the planets for its red color.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Jupiter** was the Roman king of the gods. Considering that **Jupiter is the largest planet in our Solar System, it makes sense that the planet was named after the most important god.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Saturn** was named after the Roman god of agriculture and harvest. While the planet may have gotten **its name from its golden color**, like a field of wheat, it also had to do with its position in the sky. According to mythology, the god Saturn stole the position of king of the gods from his father Uranus. The throne was then stolen by Jupiter.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Uranus** was not discovered until the 1800’s, but the astronomers in that time period continued the tradition of naming planets after Roman gods. **In mythology, Uranus was the father of Saturn and was at one time the king of the gods.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Neptune** almost ended up being named after one of the astronomers credited with discovering it – Verrier – that was greatly disputed, so **it was named after the god of the sea.** The name was probably inspired by its blue color.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Pluto** is no longer a planet, but it used to be. **The dark, cold, former planet was named after the god of the underworld.** The first two letters of Pluto are also the initials of the man who predicted  its existence, Percival Lowell.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/742/1241&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Olympus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.weasner.com/etx/fun/2008/little/Names_of_the_Planets.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20510" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="6155" RevisionGUID="a330c21e-723a-44a6-90f8-e8ad0f26bae3" CreationDate="2020-01-26T22:20:12.270" Comment="Proposed by 3307 approved by 1241 edit id of 1799" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20511" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6155" RevisionGUID="55b38ec1-dc8e-469a-bfde-8c5086d9bcee" CreationDate="2020-01-26T22:41:41.200" UserId="1241" Comment="added 82 characters in body" Text="**Why did the Romans name the planets after their gods?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Roman mythology, the Roman gods lived on [Mount Olympos][1], in Greece.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Mount Olympus][2] is the highest mountain in Greece. It is located in the Olympus Range on the border between Thessaly and Macedonia, between the regional units of Pieria and Larissa, about 80 km (50 mi) southwest from Thessaloniki. Mount Olympus has 52 peaks and deep gorges. The  highest peak, Mytikas (Μύτικας Mýtikas), meaning &quot;nose&quot;, rises to 2,917 metres (9,570 ft). It is one of the highest peaks in Europe in terms of topographic prominence.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Name and mythological associations**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The origin of the name Όλυμπος Olumpos is unknown and usually considered of &quot;pre-Greek&quot; origin. In Homeric Greek (Odyssey 6.42), the variant Οὔλυμπος Oulumpos occurs, conceived of as the seat of the gods (and not identified with any specific peak). Homer (Iliad 5.754, Odyssey 20.103) also appears to be using οὔλυμπος as a common noun, as a synonym of οὐρανός ouranos &quot;sky&quot;. Mt Olympus was historically also known as Mount Belus, after Iliad 1.591, where the seat of the gods is referred to as βηλ[ός] θεσπεσίο[ς] &quot;heavenly threshold&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Ancient Greek religion and mythology, &quot;Olympus&quot; was the name of the **home of the Twelve Olympian gods of the Ancient Greek world.** This was conceived of as a lofty mountaintop, and in all regions settled by Greek tribes, the highest local elevation tended to be so named; among the numerous peaks called Olumpos in antiquity are mountains in Mysia, Laconia, Lycia, Cyprus, Attica, Euboea, Ionia and Lesbos, and others. Thessalian Olympus is the highest peak in any territory with Greek settlement and came to be seen as the &quot;Pan-Hellenic&quot; representative of the mythological seat of the gods, by at least the 5th century BC, as Herodotus (1.56) identifies Olympus as the peak in Thessaly.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Pieria, at Olympus's northern foot, the mythological tradition had placed the nine Muses, patrons of the Fine Arts, daughters of Zeus and the Titanide Mnemosyne.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since the Romans believed that their gods lived on Mt. Olympus, the naming of the planets came from following the Babylonian tradition of doing so. **They simply followed in the footsteps of this tradition from the Babylonians.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Most ancient cultures recognized seven “planets” consisting of sun and moon and the five planets visible in the sky. The Latin names of the Planets were simple translations of the Greek names, which in turn were translations of the Babylonian names, which go back to the Sumerians. Some interpretation was required for the Greek, and even for the Babylonian, translations, however. Nergal, for instance, was the god of war but also of pestilence and, especially, the Underworld —overlapping with the Greek Hades. While Kronos was the father of Zeus, Ninurta was the son of Enlil. The Babylonians replaced the Sumerian national gods Enlil and Enki with the patron god of Babylon, Marduk, and his son, Nabû — though Marduk was actually taken to be the son of Enki (called Ea in Babylonian). Ninurta, an obscure god inherited by the Babylonians, may have been identified with Saturn, the slowest moving visible planet, because, at least in one story, he was identified with the turtle. The ancient Egyptian, Sanskrit, and Chinese names for the planets are unrelated to the Sumerian. - [Names of the Planets][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In ancient times the planets were known as wanderers in the sky. For they seemed to move amongst the star and thus symbolized their movements amongst men with the names of their gods in the heavens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thousands of years ago, ancient civilizations turned to the heavens, marveling at their wonders. These ancient people worshipped various gods and often linked their gods with planets in the sky, which they considered to be “wandering stars.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Mercury** gets its name from the winged messenger of the gods. He was also the god of thievery, commerce, and travel. Most likely, **the planet got its name from the rate at which it spins.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Venus** was the Roman goddess of love and beauty, so **it is a fitting name for this brightly shining planet.** The only objects in our Solar System brighter than Venus are the Sun and the Moon. Ancient civilizations thought that Venus was two different objects – the Morning Star and the Evening Star. Other civilizations have also associated the planet with love. The Babylonians called the planet Ishtar after their goddess of womanhood and love.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Earth** is the only planet not named after a Roman god or goddess, but **it is associated with the goddess Terra Mater (Gaea to the Greeks).** In mythology, she was the first goddess on Earth and the mother of Uranus. The name Earth comes from Old English and Germanic. It is derived from “eor(th)e” and “ertha,” which mean “ground.” Other civilizations all over the world also developed terms for our planet.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Mars** is named after the Roman god of war. The planet got **its name from the fact that it is the color of blood.**  Other civilizations also named the planets for its red color.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Jupiter** was the Roman king of the gods. Considering that **Jupiter is the largest planet in our Solar System, it makes sense that the planet was named after the most important god.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Saturn** was named after the Roman god of agriculture and harvest. While the planet may have gotten **its name from its golden color**, like a field of wheat, it also had to do with its position in the sky. According to mythology, the god Saturn stole the position of king of the gods from his father Uranus. The throne was then stolen by Jupiter.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Uranus** was not discovered until the 1800’s, but the astronomers in that time period continued the tradition of naming planets after Roman gods. **In mythology, Uranus was the father of Saturn and was at one time the king of the gods.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Neptune** almost ended up being named after one of the astronomers credited with discovering it – Verrier – that was greatly disputed, so **it was named after the god of the sea.** The name was probably inspired by its blue color.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Pluto** is no longer a planet, but it used to be. **The dark, cold, former planet was named after the god of the underworld.** The first two letters of Pluto are also the initials of the man who predicted  its existence, Percival Lowell.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/742/1241&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Olympus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.weasner.com/etx/fun/2008/little/Names_of_the_Planets.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20512" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6155" RevisionGUID="9eceb426-9243-430a-bcb5-8ce8d5e6f64c" CreationDate="2020-01-26T22:55:24.793" UserId="1241" Comment="added 1694 characters in body" Text="**Why did the Romans name the planets after their gods?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Roman mythology, the Roman gods lived on [Mount Olympos][1], in Greece.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Mount Olympus][2] is the highest mountain in Greece. It is located in the Olympus Range on the border between Thessaly and Macedonia, between the regional units of Pieria and Larissa, about 80 km (50 mi) southwest from Thessaloniki. Mount Olympus has 52 peaks and deep gorges. The  highest peak, Mytikas (Μύτικας Mýtikas), meaning &quot;nose&quot;, rises to 2,917 metres (9,570 ft). It is one of the highest peaks in Europe in terms of topographic prominence.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Name and mythological associations**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The origin of the name Όλυμπος Olumpos is unknown and usually considered of &quot;pre-Greek&quot; origin. In Homeric Greek (Odyssey 6.42), the variant Οὔλυμπος Oulumpos occurs, conceived of as the seat of the gods (and not identified with any specific peak). Homer (Iliad 5.754, Odyssey 20.103) also appears to be using οὔλυμπος as a common noun, as a synonym of οὐρανός ouranos &quot;sky&quot;. Mt Olympus was historically also known as Mount Belus, after Iliad 1.591, where the seat of the gods is referred to as βηλ[ός] θεσπεσίο[ς] &quot;heavenly threshold&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Ancient Greek religion and mythology, &quot;Olympus&quot; was the name of the **home of the Twelve Olympian gods of the Ancient Greek world.** This was conceived of as a lofty mountaintop, and in all regions settled by Greek tribes, the highest local elevation tended to be so named; among the numerous peaks called Olumpos in antiquity are mountains in Mysia, Laconia, Lycia, Cyprus, Attica, Euboea, Ionia and Lesbos, and others. Thessalian Olympus is the highest peak in any territory with Greek settlement and came to be seen as the &quot;Pan-Hellenic&quot; representative of the mythological seat of the gods, by at least the 5th century BC, as Herodotus (1.56) identifies Olympus as the peak in Thessaly.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Pieria, at Olympus's northern foot, the mythological tradition had placed the nine Muses, patrons of the Fine Arts, daughters of Zeus and the Titanide Mnemosyne.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since the Romans believed that their gods lived on Mt. Olympus, the naming of the planets came from following the Babylonian tradition of doing so. **They simply followed in the footsteps of this tradition from the Babylonians.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Most ancient cultures recognized seven “planets” consisting of sun and moon and the five planets visible in the sky. The Latin names of the Planets were simple translations of the Greek names, which in turn were translations of the Babylonian names, which go back to the Sumerians. Some interpretation was required for the Greek, and even for the Babylonian, translations, however. Nergal, for instance, was the god of war but also of pestilence and, especially, the Underworld —overlapping with the Greek Hades. While Kronos was the father of Zeus, Ninurta was the son of Enlil. The Babylonians replaced the Sumerian national gods Enlil and Enki with the patron god of Babylon, Marduk, and his son, Nabû — though Marduk was actually taken to be the son of Enki (called Ea in Babylonian). Ninurta, an obscure god inherited by the Babylonians, may have been identified with Saturn, the slowest moving visible planet, because, at least in one story, he was identified with the turtle. The ancient Egyptian, Sanskrit, and Chinese names for the planets are unrelated to the Sumerian. - [Names of the Planets][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In ancient times the planets were known as wanderers in the sky. For they seemed to move amongst the star and thus symbolized their movements amongst men with the names of their gods in the heavens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thousands of years ago, ancient civilizations turned to the heavens, marveling at their wonders. These ancient people worshipped various gods and often linked their gods with planets in the sky, which they considered to be “wandering stars.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Mercury** gets its name from the winged messenger of the gods. He was also the god of thievery, commerce, and travel. Most likely, **the planet got its name from the rate at which it spins.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Venus** was the Roman goddess of love and beauty, so **it is a fitting name for this brightly shining planet.** The only objects in our Solar System brighter than Venus are the Sun and the Moon. Ancient civilizations thought that Venus was two different objects – the Morning Star and the Evening Star. Other civilizations have also associated the planet with love. The Babylonians called the planet Ishtar after their goddess of womanhood and love.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Earth** is the only planet not named after a Roman god or goddess, but **it is associated with the goddess Terra Mater (Gaea to the Greeks).** In mythology, she was the first goddess on Earth and the mother of Uranus. The name Earth comes from Old English and Germanic. It is derived from “eor(th)e” and “ertha,” which mean “ground.” Other civilizations all over the world also developed terms for our planet.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Mars** is named after the Roman god of war. The planet got **its name from the fact that it is the color of blood.**  Other civilizations also named the planets for its red color.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Jupiter** was the Roman king of the gods. Considering that **Jupiter is the largest planet in our Solar System, it makes sense that the planet was named after the most important god.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Saturn** was named after the Roman god of agriculture and harvest. While the planet may have gotten **its name from its golden color**, like a field of wheat, it also had to do with its position in the sky. According to mythology, the god Saturn stole the position of king of the gods from his father Uranus. The throne was then stolen by Jupiter.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Uranus** was not discovered until the 1800’s, but the astronomers in that time period continued the tradition of naming planets after Roman gods. **In mythology, Uranus was the father of Saturn and was at one time the king of the gods.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Neptune** almost ended up being named after one of the astronomers credited with discovering it – Verrier – that was greatly disputed, so **it was named after the god of the sea.** The name was probably inspired by its blue color.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Pluto** is no longer a planet, but it used to be. **The dark, cold, former planet was named after the god of the underworld.** The first two letters of Pluto are also the initials of the man who predicted  its existence, Percival Lowell.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although the sun and moon are not a planets, they too also follows in the Romans imitating the Babylonian tradition naming system.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Apollo was the god of the sun.** Each day he drove his chariot of fiery horses across the sky to give light to the world. Apollo had a son called Phaethon, who was human. Phaethon nagged at Apollo to let him borrow the sun chariot and fly across the sky. Finally Apollo agreed. Phaethon proudly drove the sun chariot up into the sky, but then he lost control of the horses. The sun chariot dived towards the earth, burning everything. Finally Jupiter had to stop him with a thunder bolt.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollo was also the god of music, and played the lyre.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; His most famous temple was at Delphi in Greece, see right. There, his priestess would prophesy the future. But she wasn't easy to understand. One day, a great king asked the priestess if he should invade a nearby kingdom. She said, &quot;If you do this, a great kingdom will be destroyed.&quot; He thought that she meant he would be successful, and so started the war. He lost disastrously. It was his own kingdom that got destroyed! - [Apollo][4]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Diana was the goddess of the moon.** Her twin brother Apollo was the god of the sun.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Diana carried a bow and arrows. She was the goddess of hunting. Once she was bathing in a forest pool. A hunter called Actaeon spied on her. So Diana turned him into a stag and he was chased by his own hunting dogs.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; She helped women in child-birth, because her mother Leto gave birth to her and her twin brother so easily. - [Diana[][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/742/1241&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Olympus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.weasner.com/etx/fun/2008/little/Names_of_the_Planets.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.gwydir.demon.co.uk/jo/roman/apollo.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.gwydir.demon.co.uk/jo/roman/diana.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20513" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6155" RevisionGUID="240e4111-3d43-4d0c-acd6-adda6a89be1a" CreationDate="2020-01-27T00:41:08.413" UserId="1241" Comment="added 2540 characters in body" Text="**Why did the Romans name the planets after their gods?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Roman mythology, the Roman gods lived on [Mount Olympos][1], in Greece.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Mount Olympus][2] is the highest mountain in Greece. It is located in the Olympus Range on the border between Thessaly and Macedonia, between the regional units of Pieria and Larissa, about 80 km (50 mi) southwest from Thessaloniki. Mount Olympus has 52 peaks and deep gorges. The  highest peak, Mytikas (Μύτικας Mýtikas), meaning &quot;nose&quot;, rises to 2,917 metres (9,570 ft). It is one of the highest peaks in Europe in terms of topographic prominence.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Name and mythological associations**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The origin of the name Όλυμπος Olumpos is unknown and usually considered of &quot;pre-Greek&quot; origin. In Homeric Greek (Odyssey 6.42), the variant Οὔλυμπος Oulumpos occurs, conceived of as the seat of the gods (and not identified with any specific peak). Homer (Iliad 5.754, Odyssey 20.103) also appears to be using οὔλυμπος as a common noun, as a synonym of οὐρανός ouranos &quot;sky&quot;. Mt Olympus was historically also known as Mount Belus, after Iliad 1.591, where the seat of the gods is referred to as βηλ[ός] θεσπεσίο[ς] &quot;heavenly threshold&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Ancient Greek religion and mythology, &quot;Olympus&quot; was the name of the **home of the Twelve Olympian gods of the Ancient Greek world.** This was conceived of as a lofty mountaintop, and in all regions settled by Greek tribes, the highest local elevation tended to be so named; among the numerous peaks called Olumpos in antiquity are mountains in Mysia, Laconia, Lycia, Cyprus, Attica, Euboea, Ionia and Lesbos, and others. Thessalian Olympus is the highest peak in any territory with Greek settlement and came to be seen as the &quot;Pan-Hellenic&quot; representative of the mythological seat of the gods, by at least the 5th century BC, as Herodotus (1.56) identifies Olympus as the peak in Thessaly.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Pieria, at Olympus's northern foot, the mythological tradition had placed the nine Muses, patrons of the Fine Arts, daughters of Zeus and the Titanide Mnemosyne.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since the Romans believed that their gods lived on Mt. Olympus, the naming of the planets came from following the Babylonian tradition of doing so. **They simply followed in the footsteps of this tradition from the Babylonians.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Most ancient cultures recognized seven “planets” consisting of sun and moon and the five planets visible in the sky. The Latin names of the Planets were simple translations of the Greek names, which in turn were translations of the Babylonian names, which go back to the Sumerians. Some interpretation was required for the Greek, and even for the Babylonian, translations, however. Nergal, for instance, was the god of war but also of pestilence and, especially, the Underworld —overlapping with the Greek Hades. While Kronos was the father of Zeus, Ninurta was the son of Enlil. The Babylonians replaced the Sumerian national gods Enlil and Enki with the patron god of Babylon, Marduk, and his son, Nabû — though Marduk was actually taken to be the son of Enki (called Ea in Babylonian). Ninurta, an obscure god inherited by the Babylonians, may have been identified with Saturn, the slowest moving visible planet, because, at least in one story, he was identified with the turtle. The ancient Egyptian, Sanskrit, and Chinese names for the planets are unrelated to the Sumerian. - [Names of the Planets][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In ancient times the planets were known as wanderers in the sky. For they seemed to move amongst the star and thus symbolized their movements amongst men with the names of their gods in the heavens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thousands of years ago, ancient civilizations turned to the heavens, marveling at their wonders. These ancient people worshipped various gods and often linked their gods with planets in the sky, which they considered to be “wandering stars.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Mercury** gets its name from the winged messenger of the gods. He was also the god of thievery, commerce, and travel. Most likely, **the planet got its name from the rate at which it spins.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Venus** was the Roman goddess of love and beauty, so **it is a fitting name for this brightly shining planet.** The only objects in our Solar System brighter than Venus are the Sun and the Moon. Ancient civilizations thought that Venus was two different objects – the Morning Star and the Evening Star. Other civilizations have also associated the planet with love. The Babylonians called the planet Ishtar after their goddess of womanhood and love.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Earth** is the only planet not named after a Roman god or goddess, but **it is associated with the goddess Terra Mater (Gaea to the Greeks).** In mythology, she was the first goddess on Earth and the mother of Uranus. The name Earth comes from Old English and Germanic. It is derived from “eor(th)e” and “ertha,” which mean “ground.” Other civilizations all over the world also developed terms for our planet.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Mars** is named after the Roman god of war. The planet got **its name from the fact that it is the color of blood.**  Other civilizations also named the planets for its red color.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Jupiter** was the Roman king of the gods. Considering that **Jupiter is the largest planet in our Solar System, it makes sense that the planet was named after the most important god.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Saturn** was named after the Roman god of agriculture and harvest. While the planet may have gotten **its name from its golden color**, like a field of wheat, it also had to do with its position in the sky. According to mythology, the god Saturn stole the position of king of the gods from his father Uranus. The throne was then stolen by Jupiter.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Uranus** was not discovered until the 1800’s, but the astronomers in that time period continued the tradition of naming planets after Roman gods. **In mythology, Uranus was the father of Saturn and was at one time the king of the gods.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Neptune** almost ended up being named after one of the astronomers credited with discovering it – Verrier – that was greatly disputed, so **it was named after the god of the sea.** The name was probably inspired by its blue color.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Pluto** is no longer a planet, but it used to be. **The dark, cold, former planet was named after the god of the underworld.** The first two letters of Pluto are also the initials of the man who predicted  its existence, Percival Lowell.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although the sun and moon are not a planets, they too also follows in the Romans imitating the Babylonian tradition naming system.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Apollo was the god of the sun.** Each day he drove his chariot of fiery horses across the sky to give light to the world. Apollo had a son called Phaethon, who was human. Phaethon nagged at Apollo to let him borrow the sun chariot and fly across the sky. Finally Apollo agreed. Phaethon proudly drove the sun chariot up into the sky, but then he lost control of the horses. The sun chariot dived towards the earth, burning everything. Finally Jupiter had to stop him with a thunder bolt.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollo was also the god of music, and played the lyre.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; His most famous temple was at Delphi in Greece, see right. There, his priestess would prophesy the future. But she wasn't easy to understand. One day, a great king asked the priestess if he should invade a nearby kingdom. She said, &quot;If you do this, a great kingdom will be destroyed.&quot; He thought that she meant he would be successful, and so started the war. He lost disastrously. It was his own kingdom that got destroyed! - [Apollo][4]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Diana was the goddess of the moon.** Her twin brother Apollo was the god of the sun.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Diana carried a bow and arrows. She was the goddess of hunting. Once she was bathing in a forest pool. A hunter called Actaeon spied on her. So Diana turned him into a stag and he was chased by his own hunting dogs.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; She helped women in child-birth, because her mother Leto gave birth to her and her twin brother so easily. - [Diana][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One must admit that as to the naming of the sun, some historical confusion does exist.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Sol is the personification of the Sun and a god in ancient Roman religion**. It was long thought that Rome actually had two different, consecutive sun gods. The first, **Sol Indiges**, was thought to have been unimportant, disappearing altogether at an early period. Only in the late Roman Empire, scholars argued, did solar cult re-appear with **the arrival in Rome of the Syrian Sol Invictus, perhaps under the influence of the Mithraic mysteries**. Recent publications have challenged the notion of two different sun gods in Rome, pointing to the abundant evidence for the continuity of the cult of Sol, and the lack of any clear differentiation—either in name or depiction—between the &quot;early&quot; and &quot;late&quot; Roman sun god.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Sol Invictus**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sol Invictus (English translated as &quot;Unconquered Sun&quot;) was long thought to have been a foreign state-supported sun god introduced from either Emesa or Palmyra in Syria by the emperor Aurelian in 274 and overshadowing other Eastern cults in importance, until the abolition of Classical Roman religion under Theodosius I. However the evidence for this is meager at best, and the notion that Aurelian introduced a new cult of the sun ignores the abundant evidence on coins, in images, in inscriptions, and in other sources for a strong presence of the sun god in Rome throughout the imperial period. Tertullian (died AD 220) writes that the Circus Maximus was dedicated primarily to Sol. During the reign of Aurelian, a new college of pontiffs for Sol was established.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Identification with other deities**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **The Greek assimilation of Apollo and Helios was already established in Rome by the end of the republic**. Various Roman philosophers speculated on the nature of the sun, without arriving at any consensus. A typical example is Nigidius, a scholar of the 1st century BC. His works have not survived, but writing five centuries later, Macrobius reports that Nigidius argued that Sol was to be identified with Janus and that he had a counterpart, Jana, who was Luna. As such, they were to be regarded as the highest of the gods, receiving their sacrifices before all the others. Such views appear to have been restricted to an erudite elite—no ancient source aside from Macrobius mentions the equation of Sol with Janus—and had no impact on the well-attested cult of Sol as independent deity. - [Sol (mythology)][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/742/1241&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Olympus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.weasner.com/etx/fun/2008/little/Names_of_the_Planets.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.gwydir.demon.co.uk/jo/roman/apollo.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.gwydir.demon.co.uk/jo/roman/diana.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_(mythology)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20514" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6155" RevisionGUID="a18192f5-451d-4943-8ffd-8019b1049719" CreationDate="2020-01-27T01:07:46.657" UserId="1241" Comment="added 9 characters in body" Text="**Why did the Romans name the planets after their gods?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Roman mythology, the Roman gods lived on [Mount Olympos][1], in Greece.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Mount Olympus][2] is the highest mountain in Greece. It is located in the Olympus Range on the border between Thessaly and Macedonia, between the regional units of Pieria and Larissa, about 80 km (50 mi) southwest from Thessaloniki. Mount Olympus has 52 peaks and deep gorges. The  highest peak, Mytikas (Μύτικας Mýtikas), meaning &quot;nose&quot;, rises to 2,917 metres (9,570 ft). It is one of the highest peaks in Europe in terms of topographic prominence.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Name and mythological associations**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The origin of the name Όλυμπος Olumpos is unknown and usually considered of &quot;pre-Greek&quot; origin. In Homeric Greek (Odyssey 6.42), the variant Οὔλυμπος Oulumpos occurs, conceived of as the seat of the gods (and not identified with any specific peak). Homer (Iliad 5.754, Odyssey 20.103) also appears to be using οὔλυμπος as a common noun, as a synonym of οὐρανός ouranos &quot;sky&quot;. Mt Olympus was historically also known as Mount Belus, after Iliad 1.591, where the seat of the gods is referred to as βηλ[ός] θεσπεσίο[ς] &quot;heavenly threshold&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Ancient Greek religion and mythology, &quot;Olympus&quot; was the name of the **home of the Twelve Olympian gods of the Ancient Greek world.** This was conceived of as a lofty mountaintop, and in all regions settled by Greek tribes, the highest local elevation tended to be so named; among the numerous peaks called Olumpos in antiquity are mountains in Mysia, Laconia, Lycia, Cyprus, Attica, Euboea, Ionia and Lesbos, and others. Thessalian Olympus is the highest peak in any territory with Greek settlement and came to be seen as the &quot;Pan-Hellenic&quot; representative of the mythological seat of the gods, by at least the 5th century BC, as Herodotus (1.56) identifies Olympus as the peak in Thessaly.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Pieria, at Olympus's northern foot, the mythological tradition had placed the nine Muses, patrons of the Fine Arts, daughters of Zeus and the Titanide Mnemosyne.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since the Romans believed that their gods lived on Mt. Olympus, the naming of the planets came from following the Babylonian tradition of doing so. **They simply followed in the footsteps of this tradition from the Babylonians.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Most ancient cultures recognized seven “planets” consisting of sun and moon and the five planets visible in the sky. The Latin names of the Planets were simple translations of the Greek names, which in turn were translations of the Babylonian names, which go back to the Sumerians. Some interpretation was required for the Greek, and even for the Babylonian, translations, however. Nergal, for instance, was the god of war but also of pestilence and, especially, the Underworld —overlapping with the Greek Hades. While Kronos was the father of Zeus, Ninurta was the son of Enlil. The Babylonians replaced the Sumerian national gods Enlil and Enki with the patron god of Babylon, Marduk, and his son, Nabû — though Marduk was actually taken to be the son of Enki (called Ea in Babylonian). Ninurta, an obscure god inherited by the Babylonians, may have been identified with Saturn, the slowest moving visible planet, because, at least in one story, he was identified with the turtle. The ancient Egyptian, Sanskrit, and Chinese names for the planets are unrelated to the Sumerian. - [Names of the Planets][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In ancient times the planets were known as wanderers in the sky. For they seemed to move amongst the star and thus symbolized their movements amongst men with the names of their gods in the heavens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thousands of years ago, ancient civilizations turned to the heavens, marveling at their wonders. These ancient people worshipped various gods and often linked their gods with planets in the sky, which they considered to be “wandering stars.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Mercury** gets its name from the winged messenger of the gods. He was also the god of thievery, commerce, and travel. Most likely, **the planet got its name from the rate at which it spins.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Venus** was the Roman goddess of love and beauty, so **it is a fitting name for this brightly shining planet.** The only objects in our Solar System brighter than Venus are the Sun and the Moon. Ancient civilizations thought that Venus was two different objects – the Morning Star and the Evening Star. Other civilizations have also associated the planet with love. The Babylonians called the planet Ishtar after their goddess of womanhood and love.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Earth** is the only planet not named after a Roman god or goddess, but **it is associated with the goddess Terra Mater (Gaea to the Greeks).** In mythology, she was the first goddess on Earth and the mother of Uranus. The name Earth comes from Old English and Germanic. It is derived from “eor(th)e” and “ertha,” which mean “ground.” Other civilizations all over the world also developed terms for our planet.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Mars** is named after the Roman god of war. The planet got **its name from the fact that it is the color of blood.**  Other civilizations also named the planets for its red color.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Jupiter** was the Roman king of the gods. Considering that **Jupiter is the largest planet in our Solar System, it makes sense that the planet was named after the most important god.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Saturn** was named after the Roman god of agriculture and harvest. While the planet may have gotten **its name from its golden color**, like a field of wheat, it also had to do with its position in the sky. According to mythology, the god Saturn stole the position of king of the gods from his father Uranus. The throne was then stolen by Jupiter.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Uranus** was not discovered until the 1800’s, but the astronomers in that time period continued the tradition of naming planets after Roman gods. **In mythology, Uranus was the father of Saturn and was at one time the king of the gods.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Neptune** almost ended up being named after one of the astronomers credited with discovering it – Verrier – that was greatly disputed, so **it was named after the god of the sea.** The name was probably inspired by its blue color.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Pluto** is no longer a planet, but it used to be. **The dark, cold, former planet was named after the god of the underworld.** The first two letters of Pluto are also the initials of the man who predicted  its existence, Percival Lowell.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although the sun and moon are not a planets, they too also follows in the Romans imitating the Babylonian tradition naming system.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Apollo [Helios] was the god of the sun.** Each day he drove his chariot of fiery horses across the sky to give light to the world. Apollo had a son called Phaethon, who was human. Phaethon nagged at Apollo to let him borrow the sun chariot and fly across the sky. Finally Apollo agreed. Phaethon proudly drove the sun chariot up into the sky, but then he lost control of the horses. The sun chariot dived towards the earth, burning everything. Finally Jupiter had to stop him with a thunder bolt.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollo was also the god of music, and played the lyre.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; His most famous temple was at Delphi in Greece, see right. There, his priestess would prophesy the future. But she wasn't easy to understand. One day, a great king asked the priestess if he should invade a nearby kingdom. She said, &quot;If you do this, a great kingdom will be destroyed.&quot; He thought that she meant he would be successful, and so started the war. He lost disastrously. It was his own kingdom that got destroyed! - [Apollo][4]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Diana was the goddess of the moon.** Her twin brother Apollo was the god of the sun.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Diana carried a bow and arrows. She was the goddess of hunting. Once she was bathing in a forest pool. A hunter called Actaeon spied on her. So Diana turned him into a stag and he was chased by his own hunting dogs.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; She helped women in child-birth, because her mother Leto gave birth to her and her twin brother so easily. - [Diana][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One must admit that as to the naming of the sun, some historical confusion does exist.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Sol is the personification of the Sun and a god in ancient Roman religion**. It was long thought that Rome actually had two different, consecutive sun gods. The first, **Sol Indiges**, was thought to have been unimportant, disappearing altogether at an early period. Only in the late Roman Empire, scholars argued, did solar cult re-appear with **the arrival in Rome of the Syrian Sol Invictus, perhaps under the influence of the Mithraic mysteries**. Recent publications have challenged the notion of two different sun gods in Rome, pointing to the abundant evidence for the continuity of the cult of Sol, and the lack of any clear differentiation—either in name or depiction—between the &quot;early&quot; and &quot;late&quot; Roman sun god.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Sol Invictus**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sol Invictus (English translated as &quot;Unconquered Sun&quot;) was long thought to have been a foreign state-supported sun god introduced from either Emesa or Palmyra in Syria by the emperor Aurelian in 274 and overshadowing other Eastern cults in importance, until the abolition of Classical Roman religion under Theodosius I. However the evidence for this is meager at best, and the notion that Aurelian introduced a new cult of the sun ignores the abundant evidence on coins, in images, in inscriptions, and in other sources for a strong presence of the sun god in Rome throughout the imperial period. Tertullian (died AD 220) writes that the Circus Maximus was dedicated primarily to Sol. During the reign of Aurelian, a new college of pontiffs for Sol was established.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Identification with other deities**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **The Greek assimilation of Apollo and Helios was already established in Rome by the end of the republic**. Various Roman philosophers speculated on the nature of the sun, without arriving at any consensus. A typical example is Nigidius, a scholar of the 1st century BC. His works have not survived, but writing five centuries later, Macrobius reports that Nigidius argued that Sol was to be identified with Janus and that he had a counterpart, Jana, who was Luna. As such, they were to be regarded as the highest of the gods, receiving their sacrifices before all the others. Such views appear to have been restricted to an erudite elite—no ancient source aside from Macrobius mentions the equation of Sol with Janus—and had no impact on the well-attested cult of Sol as independent deity. - [Sol (mythology)][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/742/1241&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Olympus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.weasner.com/etx/fun/2008/little/Names_of_the_Planets.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.gwydir.demon.co.uk/jo/roman/apollo.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.gwydir.demon.co.uk/jo/roman/diana.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_(mythology)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20516" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6157" RevisionGUID="b147ca1d-5345-42b6-af75-136f768b923c" CreationDate="2020-01-27T16:54:14.763" UserId="3307" Text="Did the Romans and Greeks worship the sun as their sun god, or was their sun god distinct from the astronomical sun?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20517" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6157" RevisionGUID="b147ca1d-5345-42b6-af75-136f768b923c" CreationDate="2020-01-27T16:54:14.763" UserId="3307" Text="Did the Romans and Greeks worship the sun as their sun god?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20518" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6157" RevisionGUID="b147ca1d-5345-42b6-af75-136f768b923c" CreationDate="2020-01-27T16:54:14.763" UserId="3307" Text="|greek|roman|astrology|sun|planets|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20519" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3194" RevisionGUID="b6b4df76-e083-4f55-a534-b2f4cfb1651c" CreationDate="2020-01-27T19:02:10.267" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="20520" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6158" RevisionGUID="f826b130-7dc4-40b3-9eb4-8f4b4b49218a" CreationDate="2020-01-27T21:04:34.907" UserId="5511" Text="Yes, that is the case.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Ancient Greece, sun-worship personified by Helios had once been prevalent and powerful among the people of the pre-Hellenic culture, but very few of the communities of the later historic period retained it as a potent factor of the state religion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Roman sources, the worship of the sun personified by Sol was introduced by Titus Tatius shortly after the foundation of Rome. There is some disagreement on whether Roman religion had two sun deities, Sol Indiges and the originally Syrian Sol Invictus." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20521" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6157" RevisionGUID="7ef3d2b8-5cef-416f-a846-bdc5efcc4fde" CreationDate="2020-01-27T22:49:34.703" UserId="3307" Comment="added 98 characters in body" Text="Did the Romans and Greeks worship the sun as their sun god, or was their sun god distinct from the astronomical sun?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can the same be said about the moon and the planets Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20522" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6159" RevisionGUID="94fe8bf5-0a3f-4b24-bfbb-7c65a4061eab" CreationDate="2020-01-28T01:55:15.090" UserId="4657" Text="In the Estonian folklore Pisuhand, Kratt and Puuk are all household spirits who steal grain and milk for whomever’s house they dwell in. They are described as a goblin or dragon and are an old explanation for meteors seen in the sky. &#xD;&#xA;Are they all the same creature? And if so, Why are there various different names and appearances for it?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20523" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6159" RevisionGUID="94fe8bf5-0a3f-4b24-bfbb-7c65a4061eab" CreationDate="2020-01-28T01:55:15.090" UserId="4657" Text="Estonian folklore" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20524" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6159" RevisionGUID="94fe8bf5-0a3f-4b24-bfbb-7c65a4061eab" CreationDate="2020-01-28T01:55:15.090" UserId="4657" Text="|folklore|european-folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20525" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6160" RevisionGUID="4337e672-1234-466a-8b94-0724cc584d13" CreationDate="2020-01-28T16:52:49.097" UserId="3307" Text="In [*Etymologies*][1] bk. 8 §11 &quot;Gods of the heathens (*De diis gentium*),&quot; p. 185 (PDF p. 199), St. Isidore of Seville writes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;29. By empty stories the pagans attempt to **connect&#xD;&#xA;some of the names of their gods to physical causes**, and&#xD;&#xA;they **interpret these names as involved in the origins of&#xD;&#xA;the elements**. But this has been entirely made up by poets,&#xD;&#xA;with the intention of enhancing their gods with certain&#xD;&#xA;figures of speech, while histories reveal these gods to have&#xD;&#xA;been lost and full of the infamy of shame. Indeed, when&#xD;&#xA;truth leaves off, room for fiction is wide open.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, it seems that the mythological stories and gods came first, and they were only later applied to real physical entities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://isidore.co/calibre/#panel=book_details&amp;book_id=4516" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20526" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6161" RevisionGUID="dfec5bda-800e-4a12-bebb-021b7609e5b0" CreationDate="2020-01-28T22:38:28.973" UserId="1241" Text="**Are the Nephilim the demi-gods of the bible?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Impossible to say, but I doubt it.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Let us start by seeing who the Nephilim of the Scripture may truly be:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [The Nephilim][1] (Hebrew: נְפִילִים) were the offspring of the &quot;sons of God&quot; and the &quot;daughters of men&quot; before the Deluge, according to Genesis 6:1-4. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; A similar or identical biblical Hebrew term, read as &quot;Nephilim&quot; by some scholars, or as the word &quot;fallen&quot; by others, appears in Ezekiel 32:27.[1][2] &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; When people began to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that they were fair; and they took wives for themselves of all that they chose. Then the Lord said, &quot;My spirit shall not abide in mortals forever, for they are flesh; their days shall be one hundred twenty years.&quot; The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went in to the daughters of humans, who bore children to them. These were the heroes that were of old, warriors of renown. — Genesis 6:1–4, New Revised Standard Version&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The word is loosely translated as giants in some Bibles and left untranslated in others. The &quot;sons of God&quot; have been interpreted as fallen angels in some traditional Jewish explanations. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to Numbers 13:33, they later inhabited Canaan at the time of the Israelite conquest of Canaan. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Lord said to Moses, &quot;Send men to spy out the land of Canaan, which I am giving to the Israelites&quot; ... So they went up and spied out the land ... And they told him: &quot;... Yet the people who live in the land are strong, and the towns are fortified and very large; and besides, we saw the descendants of Anak there.&quot; ... So they brought to the Israelites an unfavorable report of the land that they had spied out, saying, &quot;The land that we have gone through as spies is a land that devours its inhabitants; and all the people that we saw in it are of great size. There we saw the Nephilim (the Anakites come from the Nephilim); and to ourselves we seemed like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them.&quot; — Numbers 13:1–2; 21; 27–28; 32–33. New Revised Standard Version.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And now let us look at what the Sons of God may mean:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Sons of the God][2] (Hebrew: בני האלהים‎) literally: &quot;sons of the Gods&quot;) is a phrase used in the Hebrew Bible and apocrypha. The phrase is also used in Kabbalah where bene elohim are part of different Jewish angelic hierarchies. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Hebrew Bible**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Genesis 6**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. — Genesis 6:1–4, KJV&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The first mention of &quot;sons of God&quot; in the Hebrew Bible occurs at Genesis 6:1–4. In terms of literary-historical origin, this phrase is typically associated with the Jahwist tradition.[3] &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; This passage has had two interpretations in Judaism:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Offspring of Seth: The first references to the offspring of Seth rebelling from God and mingling with the daughters of Cain are found in Christian and rabbinic literature from the second century CE onwards e.g. Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai, Augustine of Hippo, Julius Africanus, and the Letters attributed to St. Clement. It is also the view expressed in the modern canonical Amharic Ethiopian Orthodox Bible. In Judaism &quot;Sons of God&quot; usually refers to the righteous, i.e. the children of Seth.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Angels: All of the earliest sources interpret the &quot;sons of God&quot; as angels. From the third century BCE onwards, references are found in the Enochic literature, the Dead Sea Scrolls the (Genesis Apocryphon, the Damascus Document, 4Q180), Jubilees, the Testament of Reuben, 2 Baruch, Josephus, and the book of Jude (compare with 2 Peter 2). This is also the meaning of the only two identical occurrences of bene ha elohim in the Hebrew Bible (Job 1:6 and 2:1), and of the most closely related expressions (refer to the list above). In the Septuagint, the interpretive reading &quot;angels&quot; is found in Codex Alexandrinus, one of four main witnesses to the Greek text.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Rabbinic Judaism traditionally adheres to the first interpretation**, with some exceptions, and modern Jewish translations may translate bnei elohim as &quot;sons of rulers&quot; rather than &quot;sons of God&quot;. Regardless, the second interpretation (sons of angels or other divine beings) is nonexistent in modern Judaism. ***This is reflected by the rejection of Enoch and other Apocrypha supporting the second interpretation from the Hebrew Bible Canon.*** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Using Scripture to interpret Scripture is a very common practice in our day and as such the New Testament in the person of St. Luke shows us that the Sons of God were the descendants of Adam.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Scripture “sons of God” means “persons who are begotten independently of any creature’s decision”. All angels can appropriately be called “sons of God”, but not all characters called “sons of God” in the Bible can appropriately be considered angels. The “sons of God” in Genesis 6:1-4 are undoubtedly human, and it is fitting to consider that they were created directly by God through transformation of human-like animals into persons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Who was the son of Enos, who was the son of Seth, who was the son of Adam, who was the son of God. - [Luke 3:38][3] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Thus if the Nephilim were the descendants of the Sons of God (sons of Adam) and the &quot;daughters of men&quot; surely they were not demi-gods. Some of them would have had good and upright souls and some were sinners like everyone else.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sons_of_God&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://biblehub.com/luke/3-38.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20527" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5157" RevisionGUID="db1d945d-8230-4cfe-b2c9-52b5b212a488" CreationDate="2020-01-29T01:18:01.073" UserDisplayName="user5459" Comment="edited title" Text="Any ancient myths/folklore/tales/etc. about extraterrestrial voyages/beings/people or even about voyages towards earth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20528" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6162" RevisionGUID="c8c8bcf9-c231-4627-bf99-4a77de898f35" CreationDate="2020-01-29T03:22:07.317" UserId="2682" Text="As far as the sun is concerned, the answer is: Yes... but also No.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For somewhat different reasons, this gets very complicated and even confused particularly with regard to three of the classical seven planets in question, namely the sun, the moon, and Venus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sun and Moon**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In ancient Greco-Roman cosmology, as celestial objects themselves, the sun and the moon literally are indeed the same things as the deities who represent them, these being, respectively the Titan siblings Helios and Selene of Greek mythology, who in turn correspond, respectively, to their Roman counterparts Sol and Luna.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Helios's name is simply the Greek word for &quot;Sun&quot; (from which we get English terms like *helium* and *heliotrope*) just as Sol is Latin for the same (hence English *solar*) and Luna's name is the Latin word for &quot;Moon&quot; (whence English *lunar*). The Greek Selene was also called Mene, both of these names being used as terms for the heavenly body, the latter of these appellations being a clear cognate of English &quot;moon.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Within the aforementioned cosmology, the seven planets and all the other stars were conceived of as shining entities: celestial winged deities who each drove a fiery chariot drawn by flaming horses across the sky. Helios's task was the most labour-intensive of these, as his circuit of the world occurred daily, since he travelled across the heavens throughout each day, and sailed asleep on the cosmic river Okeanos [Ocean] by night in order to return from the west to his eastern rising-point to resume the cycle all over again.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Selene's sky-journeys were similar, taking place, for the most part, at night, but not as frequently as those of Helios. And then each of the stars, including the planets, had his own circuit, in his own blazing chariot, with its own frequency which could be seen determined from watching the night sky.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Romans basically copied this cosmology from the Greeks, along with the rest of the mythology, swapping out the Greek names for Roman ones. So just as the sun in the sky meant Helios charging across the heavens in his vehicle for the Greeks, so it was for the Romans with Sol.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Confusion comes in with the Greek Apollon and Artemis, known to the Romans as Apollo and Diana. These two were among the twelve most important gods who were called the Twelve Olympians, chief of whom was their father Zeus (= Roman Jupiter). Apollon and Artemis were siblings, just as Helios and Selene were brother and sister.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps because Apollon was worshipped as a god of light, from fairly early on he was identified with the sun and thus with the Titan Helios. Even ancient writers debated about whether they were the same god. Mythologically speaking they were very different characters, with different parentages, relationships and stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarly Artemis was identified with Selene and worshipped as a moon-goddess. This conflation, or identification, carries over into Roman religion, with Diana and Luna often being closely associated. According to Joseph E. Fontenrose's article &quot;Apollo and Sol in the Latin Poets of the First Century B.C.&quot; in Vol. 70 (1939) of *Transactions and Proceedings of the American Philological Association* (Johns Hopkins University Press), however, the Roman gods Apollo and Sol are never conflated in this way, consistently maintaining their distinction from each other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the mythology, the god Helios/Sol is most certainly the same thing as the ball of light seen in the sky to be giving light to the world every day. If, however, we consider Apollo[n] to be a sun-deity, then this complicates the answer to your Question to an extent. According to William Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology, Helios and Apollon&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;were originally quite distinct; and the identification was, in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fact, never carried out completely, for no Greek poet ever made Apollo&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ride in the chariot of Helios through the heavens, and among the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Romans we find this idea only after the time of Virgil. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; representations of Apollo with rays around his head, to characterise&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him as identical with the sun, belong to the time of the Roman&#xD;&#xA;&gt; empire.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The same complication maps fairly equivalently onto the moon. Selene/Luna literally *is* the moon, personified as a goddess, but there are also other important moon-goddesses in the same pantheon[s], primarily Artemis/Diana, as well as Hekate [Hecate]. Unlike Selene/Luna, none of these other deities drove the moon-chariot across the sky.               &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Stella Veneris*, the &quot;Star of Venus&quot;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Helios and Selene had a sister named Eos, &quot;Dawn,&quot; whom the Romans called Aurora. She was the herald of Helios, perpetually driving her own bright chariot ahead of his, dispersing the darkness of night to welcome his light. In primordial times, Eos was married to another Titan, named Astraios, whose name means “Starry” (*Astraeus* to the Romans). The numerous stars of the sky, including the planets, were the sons of Astraios and Eos, with the exception of the Sun and the Moon (which, as we have seen, were Eos's brother and sister).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Among these many celestial offspring of the dawn-goddess, we come to our third major source of confusion among these star-gods: the planet Venus. There are a few different levels of perplexity which arise from thence. Perhaps it is best to work our way backwards with this one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Venus is famously known as a goddess, an undoubtedly female divinity. A much less-known fact is that the planet, just like all the other stars in this mythology, is a *male* deity. Nomenclature is the start of the bewilderment here, since the planet is typically &quot;known&quot; to be called by the name of the notorious goddess of love.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sun and the moon, however, are really the only of these seven *astra planetoi*, &quot;wandering stars,&quot; which are colloquially assigned their proper names. When we call the planets by the names of these more famous Roman deities, it is technically only a shorthand for saying that these *astra* were anciently assigned to those respective divinities. With the exception of Sun and Moon, though, the deity and the planet are actually *not* the same thing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Calling the planet &quot;Venus&quot; is an abridgement of saying that it is the planet *of* Venus, dedicated to the love-goddess. The planet itself, however, was a star-god who in Greece was named Eosphoros, the &quot;Dawn-Bringer,&quot; commonly known in many cultures as the morning star, because he is the last star to be seen shining at sunrise. He is also called Phosphoros, &quot;Light-Bringer.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Prior to the sixth century BC, Hesperos, the evening star, the first star to appear in the night sky, was thought to be a completely different heavenly body from Eosphoros. It was either Parmenides of Elea or Pythagoras of Samos who identified them as one and the same, whereupon Eosphoros and Hesperos, who had been brothers before, now became the same god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There was a similar mythological situation for the Romans, whose name for Eosphoros was Lucifer (an exact translation of Phosphoros, meaning the one who carries the light), and whose name for Hesperos was Vesper (likewise a direct translation). Lucifer and Vesper were also equated with each other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Because the Greeks assigned Eosphoros-Phosphoros/Hesperos to their goddess Aphrodite, this same goddess's Roman counterpart Venus was granted the Roman planet-star Lucifer/Vesper. Beyond these associations, the star-god and the love-goddess have precious little to do with each other in the myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Other Four Planets**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The star-god Stilbon was presided over by the messenger-god Hermes, thus he was called Hermaon, &quot;Of Hermes,&quot; which to the Romans was Mercurii, &quot;Belonging to Mercurius,&quot; and thus we now have Mercury.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The star-god Pyroeis was governed by the war-god Ares, hence dubbed Areios, &quot;Of Ares.&quot; In Latin this is Martis, &quot;Of Mars&quot; = the planet Mars.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The star-god Phaethon was ruled over by Zeus, whence referred to as Dios, &quot;Of Zeus&quot; = Latin *Jovis*, &quot;Of Jove/Juppiter&quot; &gt; planet *Jupiter*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The star-god Phainon [Phaenon] was dedicated to the Titan Kronos, so he was called Kronion, &quot;Of Kronos&quot; = Latin *Saturni*, &quot;Of Saturnus&quot; &gt; planet *Saturn*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In general, the planets themselves were very minor star-deities each individually &quot;owned&quot; by a certain high-profile member of the pantheon, hence the more famous names we now have for these heavenly bodies, with the exception, as always, of the much more important Sun and Moon, who are their own persons, so to speak.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Related Question: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/1740/2682&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;See [here](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2686/2682) for a small family-tree illustrating how the Stars were (biologically) related to the Sun, Moon, Dawn, Earth and Sky.&lt;/sup&gt; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20529" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5239" RevisionGUID="8940b456-fc07-40f2-8281-c6cf8425cda4" CreationDate="2020-01-29T16:42:27.110" UserDisplayName="user5459" Comment="Clarifications" Text="I remember back when I was young that I saw an episode of Smurfs featuring a castle that disappears and reappears each few centuries and when, more recently, I thought about the whole concept of something disappearing and reappearing like this I became somewhat interested in stories with it. So are there any such stories and where can I find them?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;EDIT (In order to clarify some things): First, I edited the title some time ago to explain what kind of stories I'd like answerers to talk about after a commenter asked what kind of stories I want (I limited the category of stories since it's big). Also, by disappearance I mean vanishing into thin air in such a way that something no longer is anywhere in this world (not even behind fog/mist, under water or hidden in general). It's seemingly non-existent or in some kind of &quot;Nothingness&quot; area." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20530" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5239" RevisionGUID="9316698a-67a8-47cf-8869-51e5b2bcd938" CreationDate="2020-01-29T22:49:45.703" UserDisplayName="user5459" Comment="deleted 4 characters in body" Text="I remember back when I was young that I saw an episode of Smurfs featuring a castle that disappears and reappears each few centuries and when, more recently, I thought about the whole concept of something disappearing and reappearing like this I became somewhat interested in stories with it. So are there any such stories and where can I find them?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;EDIT (In order to clarify some things): First, I edited the title some time ago to say what kind of stories I'd like answerers to talk about after a commenter asked what kind of stories I want (I limited the category of stories since it's big). Also, by disappearance I mean vanishing into thin air in such a way that something no longer is anywhere in this world (not even behind fog/mist, under water or hidden in general). It's seemingly non-existent or in some kind of &quot;Nothingness&quot; area." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20531" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6163" RevisionGUID="3519a9ce-66fc-45c7-b0a8-2add78cd8f9c" CreationDate="2020-01-30T23:53:38.453" UserId="5771" Text="These characters were created, like all mythological creatures, as a metaphor for somebody.  Long after those people disappeared, Jews appeared and like most immigrants became the subject of negative imagery.  The long story is complicated." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20533" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6165" RevisionGUID="15b99f6a-04cd-4be4-bf18-d37640b03d0f" CreationDate="2020-01-31T10:17:41.643" UserId="4142" Text="It is an interesting question as there are two sides to it: (1) history (2) language.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the Mediterranean world the planets became really interesting with the spread of astrology during the Hellenistic times. It is easily seen that in classical Greece, e.g. Plato or Aristotle, just descriptive names are used: *the bright one* or *the red one*. The Romans were even less interested. Astrology came from Babylon and with the correspondence between gods already established. But that just moves back the question to the babylonians. Francesca Rochberg who is the expert on the topic writes in her *The Heavenly Writing* (Cambridge 2004, p.171)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Even in the cases in which the celestial bodies’ names duplicate the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; names of gods, such as is the case with the moon and sun, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; celestial bodies cannot themselves be one and the same with the gods&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their namesakes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are a dozen pages discussing how a river, a wind, a mountain etc., received a proper name and was treated like a deity, a problem that has been much discussed in the early 20th. c. (Speaking of &quot;primitive&quot;  or &quot;prelogical&quot; mentality was not politically incorrect back then.) How a particular planet came to be assigned to a particular deity does not seem to have a good answer. It is obvious however that astrological discourse developed mostly by glossing mythological names." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20534" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6166" RevisionGUID="a8f3c468-740f-40fe-978a-2386e481cf2c" CreationDate="2020-01-31T17:06:00.157" UserId="3307" Text="In [*Etymologies*][1] bk. 8 §11 &quot;Gods of the heathens (*De diis gentium*),&quot; p. 185 (PDF p. 199), St. Isidore of Seville writes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;29. By empty stories the pagans attempt to **connect&#xD;&#xA;some of the names of their gods to physical causes**, and&#xD;&#xA;they **interpret these names as involved in the origins of&#xD;&#xA;the elements**. But this has been entirely made up by poets,&#xD;&#xA;with the intention of enhancing their gods with certain&#xD;&#xA;figures of speech, while histories reveal these gods to have&#xD;&#xA;been lost and full of the infamy of shame. Indeed, when&#xD;&#xA;truth leaves off, room for fiction is wide open.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, it seems that the mythological stories and gods came first, and they were only later applied to real physical entities, such as the sun, moon, and planets.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://isidore.co/calibre/#panel=book_details&amp;book_id=4516" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20535" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6137" RevisionGUID="6cf64684-af55-4eea-b0f1-049230d3eb8e" CreationDate="2020-01-31T17:06:10.557" UserId="5726" Comment="edited body" Text="Something definitely with snow and ice:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to some, the Aymaran creator god was the snow god, Kun.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Angry at human beings, Kun once covered creation with snow and ice,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and nothing but evil spirits could survive on the frozen world. After&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this ice flood, it was the gods of fertility who sent their sons, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eagle Men, to create a new people, the Paka-Jakes, who still live near&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lake Titicaca.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Leeming, David A. (1994). Creation Myths of the World&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Personally, I think every Heaven-Earth Separation story is about the last glacial period. Specifically about people living in glaciers in expanses between the heaven-ice (heaven/firmament are solid in this stories) and earth. Read for example some native american creation myths with this analogy and judge for your self. They are found all around the world, even in places like Ghana...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I like this part of a Krachi creation myth, containing mundane details of everyday life in a glacier (according to my interpretation):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the beginning Wulbari (Heaven· male) lived on top of Asase Ya&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Earth· female). Man lived between them, but with little room to move.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Man's squirming irritated Wulbari so much that he left and went up&#xD;&#xA;&gt; above. One of the things that bothered Wulbari was an old woman who,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; when grinding maize, kept hitting him with her pestle, and the smoke&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from the cooking fires bothered his eyes. Some say that Wulbari was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; annoyed because men would sometimes wipe their dirty hands on him. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Krachi people say that there was an old woman who used to cut off bits&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Wulbari to flavor her soup.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Leeming, David A. (1994). Creation Myths of the World&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Btw: Shiva has a blue throat, which is the color of glaciers from the inside, white or gray skin and is associated with ice. &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20536" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5945" RevisionGUID="8dfa7add-8552-4324-874f-d4e4531d9ce5" CreationDate="2020-02-01T16:01:25.177" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="20537" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6167" RevisionGUID="3ab68e81-6424-4b0c-9477-06f52c7259fb" CreationDate="2020-02-02T18:35:36.337" UserId="6649" Text="How about Fimbulwinter from Norse myth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20539" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6167" RevisionGUID="6554d89e-f44a-479c-a3fd-f172dd681514" CreationDate="2020-02-04T19:07:05.577" UserId="6649" Comment="answer a request to expand" Text="How about [Fimbulwinter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fimbulwinter) from Norse myth?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Fimbulwinter was a long winter that proceeded Ragnarök in Norse myth.  This in turn was the final war of the gods and the almost complete destruction of everything.  This is all in the past.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Personally, I suspect this is a good match to either an ice age or a severe volcanic dust event that caused winter not come,&#xD;&#xA;like the so called [year without a summer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Without_a_Summer)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20540" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6168" RevisionGUID="880a9b8b-2fcf-454c-8779-fbc720a0f4d4" CreationDate="2020-02-05T16:22:18.177" UserId="6659" Text="I think in it's entirety the term Dreaming or Dream-time has more to do with consciousness than dreams during sleep. However if you've ever travelled you'll know that spending time in a place will make that place enter your dreams. The original term has to do with awareness, wisdom passed through DNA and ways to express a strong connection with Nature from which all forms mysteriously arise.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20541" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6169" RevisionGUID="906bcde5-3386-404a-b2ee-d11b6f6d0f7d" CreationDate="2020-02-05T16:31:49.943" UserId="6659" Text="The brutality of the times reflected in the writing of the Odyssey gives a reason in itself - women were bound by marriage because of resources. Look how much of the text is devoted simply to the matter of eating. Getting food and other resources requires energy and also going out in the open which was constantly dangerous. Men crossed territories to get the things they needed. Women were left behind to take care of other duties. The plot would have been believable to people of the time because Penelope would not survive forever on the kindness of others. A husband would be needed to provide for her.     " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20542" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6170" RevisionGUID="e2db5e90-2b33-4e8a-83b6-cd44fab16efd" CreationDate="2020-02-05T16:54:37.207" UserId="6659" Text="The Valkyrie carry the spirit of the fallen warrior to Asgaard and all who come are not turned away. Those who wish may go to the hall of Freya. This was to maintain peace between family members. Odin was not always happy with the pick of the warriors and got cross with the Valkyrie sometimes. They responded by refusing to go to Midgaard so at times Odin went in disguise. This usually led to trouble so he kept good relations with Valkyrie after that because the warriors they brought also helped protect Asgaard. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20547" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6168" RevisionGUID="3a412c1f-f791-4907-b3f1-1a2ee1460848" CreationDate="2020-02-05T22:06:21.707" UserId="6659" Comment="more depth" Text="I think in it's entirety the term Dreaming or Dream-time has more to do with consciousness than dreams during sleep. However if you've ever travelled you'll know that spending time in a place will make that place enter your dreams. The original term has to do with awareness, wisdom passed through DNA and ways to express a strong connection with Nature from which all forms mysteriously arise. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I had a book once, a huge book written by an artist who lived with the aboriginal people for more than a year but it was a long time ago and destroyed in a flood, actually a hurricane when I lived on a house-boat. There were as many shocking facts in this book as humbling ones. Nevertheless, in a native culture as this one sometimes God is too great to be named or approached directly. There are many ways to worship and the spirit is shared by all. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Dreaming is the passing of the living spirit for a tribe with no written language. It is a moment-to-moment practice and encompasses all aspects of life. This may seem strange to those familiar with organised religion who attend rituals or set time aside for contemplation. The Dreaming is ongoing all the time, before birth and after death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Honestly it would take a thousand pages to even begin to do justice to the depth of the concepts involved. The Bible has an equivalent to the Dreamtime in that all beings were in harmony before the apple was tasted and God tossed them out of the garden. The Dreamtime is so no-one forgets the actual state of harmony which can be lost in the fog of survival and daily needs. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is a poem written by some Aboriginal children: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; My culture is my identity.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dreamtime stories tell the life of my people.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Growing older.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hearing stories of my ancestors living off the land&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Becoming one with the creatures&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Even though I haven't met them&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; I feel this unbreakable connection&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Through the stories I have heard.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The stories that have been passed down through generations.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; These stories are living through us.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Without our culture we have no identity&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And without our identity&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; We have nothing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20549" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6173" RevisionGUID="f1443ead-3ff5-44df-9d76-db69f3931e6c" CreationDate="2020-02-05T22:29:22.713" UserId="6659" Text="I think the answer to your question is no. Folklore is created primarily for the ears of children and would consist of imagery relevant to the culture of the area. By culture I mean natural aspects, type of landscape, textiles created from available materials, manners of speaking and daily rituals. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First of all I don't see any close connection between the loric creatures you mention. Ogres, brownies and fairies are very different from each other. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Norway ogres turn to stone in sunlight and come alive in the dark. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Scotland Brownies sometimes do housework while the people are sleeping but will leave if you show any generosity to them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Ireland different fairies have different roles but are generally  benevolent towards humans unless natural surroundings are subject to devastation in which case they may cause harm as punishment.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as traits attributed to race or sect is concerned I'm sure if anyone looks properly at other people they will see we are all the same really. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20550" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6174" RevisionGUID="81dc386e-2f83-4d43-b2a9-88e096b371d3" CreationDate="2020-02-06T11:05:19.403" UserId="6661" Text="What is not mentioned here is the fact that in all of the myths of Persephone's abduction, it is always Hecate who witnesses it and alerts Demeter about it, and also the fact that Kalligeneia is also one of Hecate's many epithets. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20554" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6175" RevisionGUID="776b3424-069d-4094-8585-a97fdb17c2d9" CreationDate="2020-02-08T10:44:35.237" UserId="2897" Text="Some information about Loess; relevant to glaciers and fertility:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Loess is a clastic, predominantly silt-sized sediment that is formed by the accumulation of wind-blown dust. Ten percent of the Earth's land area is covered by loess or similar deposits.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Loess tends to develop into very rich soils. Under appropriate climatic conditions, it is some of the most agriculturally productive terrain in the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Periglacial (glacial) loess is derived from the floodplains of glacial braided rivers that carried large volumes of glacial meltwater and sediments from the annual melting of continental icesheets and mountain icecaps during the spring and summer. During the autumn and winter, when melting of the icesheets and icecaps ceased, the flow of meltwater down these rivers either ceased or was greatly reduced. As a consequence, large parts of the formerly submerged and unvegetated floodplains of these braided rivers dried out and were exposed to the wind. Because these floodplains consist of sediment containing a high content of glacially ground flour-like silt and clay, they were highly susceptible to winnowing of their silts and clays by the wind. Once entrained by the wind, particles were then deposited downwind. The loess deposits found along both sides of the Mississippi River Alluvial Valley are a classic example of periglacial loess.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;During the Quaternary, loess and loess-like sediments were formed in periglacial environments on mid-continental shield areas in Europe and Siberia, on the margins of high mountain ranges like in Tajikistan and on semi-arid margins of some lowland deserts like in China.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Non-glacial loess can originate from deserts, dune fields, playa lakes, and volcanic ash.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20555" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6176" RevisionGUID="26c88cbe-73b0-430c-86a8-86f75e35b77f" CreationDate="2020-02-08T13:06:25.940" UserId="5726" Text="In the Gospel of luke, Jesus exorcises a multitude of demons who call themselves Legion into a herd of pigs which he then drove into a lake.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 26 They sailed to the region of the Gerasenes, which is across the lake from Galilee. 27 When Jesus stepped ashore, he was met by a demon-possessed man from the town. For a long time this man had not worn clothes or lived in a house, but had lived in the tombs. 28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell at his feet, shouting at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don’t torture me!” 29 For Jesus had commanded the impure spirit to come out of the man. Many times it had seized him, and though he was chained hand and foot and kept under guard, he had broken his chains and had been driven by the demon into solitary places.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;30 Jesus asked him, “What is your name?”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Legion,” he replied, because many demons had gone into him. 31 And they begged Jesus repeatedly not to order them to go into the Abyss.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;32 A large herd of pigs was feeding there on the hillside. The demons begged Jesus to let them go into the pigs, and he gave them permission. 33 When the demons came out of the man, they went into the pigs, and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and was drowned.  &lt;sub&gt;[Luke 8 New International Version (NIV)][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as I know this is the earliest case of an exorcism. I have searched the [writings of Josephus][2] and the Tanakh for a mention of exorcism as noted by [Wikipedia][3] but to no avail. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Are there any older cases of exorcism in other mythology than the Abrahamic religions?** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%208&amp;version=NIV&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/josephus/war7.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exorcism#Judaism" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20556" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6176" RevisionGUID="26c88cbe-73b0-430c-86a8-86f75e35b77f" CreationDate="2020-02-08T13:06:25.940" UserId="5726" Text="Are there any older cases of exorcism in other mythology than the Abrahamic religions?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20557" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6176" RevisionGUID="26c88cbe-73b0-430c-86a8-86f75e35b77f" CreationDate="2020-02-08T13:06:25.940" UserId="5726" Text="|myth-identification|comparative|origins|demons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20558" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6177" RevisionGUID="e29e271a-fa35-48e3-871c-3aaa0dc805c7" CreationDate="2020-02-08T14:04:46.397" UserId="5511" Text="Virtually all mythologies from cultures geographically nearby the origin of Judaism have many common myths regarding demons and exorcism through incantations. Perhaps the most illustrative collection which draws from many of these cultures is compiled in the Ancient Egyptian Papyrus named Leiden 343 + 345.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A detailed study of these incantations can be read on [academia.edu](https://www.academia.edu/34791549/Beck_S._2018_Exorcism_illness_and_demons_in_an_ancient_Near_Eastern_context_The_Egyptian_magical_Papyrus_Leiden_I_343_345_PALMA_18)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20559" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6045" RevisionGUID="059ca1d5-881a-416e-b8b4-a0ab6e326072" CreationDate="2020-02-09T17:01:05.083" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="20560" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6178" RevisionGUID="3be7ef2b-1fce-4326-ac5a-cf3dc7a8b913" CreationDate="2020-02-09T21:30:21.060" UserId="6665" Text="I am in search of a difficult-to-Google fact. I once saw a Discovery Channel-esque documentary about an apocalyptic prophecy that all of the tools and other man-made objects would at some point take on a life of their own and turn on humankind. I'm pretty sure it was from a Native American culture (I thought Mayan but that didn't turn up anything useful online so maybe not).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does anyone know whether this is/was a genuinely held cultural belief somewhere, if so what culture, and where I can find out more?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20561" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6178" RevisionGUID="3be7ef2b-1fce-4326-ac5a-cf3dc7a8b913" CreationDate="2020-02-09T21:30:21.060" UserId="6665" Text="Native American (possibly) apocalyptic prophecy about inanimate objects coming to life" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20562" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6178" RevisionGUID="3be7ef2b-1fce-4326-ac5a-cf3dc7a8b913" CreationDate="2020-02-09T21:30:21.060" UserId="6665" Text="|native-american|apocalypse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20563" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6179" RevisionGUID="553972fe-8427-4f58-a768-dcabfb321c60" CreationDate="2020-02-09T22:25:22.317" UserId="1241" Text="Hinduism is the third largest religion in the world and is thought to be the **oldest religion** in the world to date.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Hinduism][1] is the world's third largest religion. It is an Indian religion and dharma, or way of life, widely practised in the Indian subcontinent and parts of Southeast Asia. Hinduism has been called the oldest religion in the world, and some practitioners and scholars refer to it as Sanātana Dharma, &quot;the eternal tradition&quot;, or the &quot;eternal way&quot;, beyond human history. Scholars regard Hinduism as a fusion or synthesis of various Indian cultures and traditions, with diverse roots and no founder. This &quot;Hindu synthesis&quot; started to develop between 500 BCE and 300 CE, after the end of the Vedic period (1500 to 500 BCE), and flourished in the medieval period, with the decline of Buddhism in India.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Although Hinduism contains a broad range of philosophies, it is linked by shared concepts, recognisable rituals, cosmology, shared textual resources, and pilgrimage to sacred sites. Hindu texts are classified into Śruti (&quot;heard&quot;) and Smṛti (&quot;remembered&quot;). These texts discuss theology, philosophy, mythology, Vedic yajna, Yoga, agamic rituals, and temple building, among other topics. Major scriptures include the Vedas and the Upanishads, the Puranas, the Mahabharata, the Ramayana, and the Āgamas. Sources of authority and eternal truths in its texts play an important role, but there is also a strong Hindu tradition of questioning authority in order to deepen the understanding of these truths and to further develop the tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The practice of exorcism are quite prominently connected amongst the Hindus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Beliefs and practices pertaining to the practice of exorcism are prominently connected with Hindus. Of the four Vedas (holy books of the Hindus), the Atharva Veda is said to contain the secrets related to exorcism, magic and alchemy. The basic means of exorcism are the mantra and the yajna used in both Vedic and Tantric traditions. Vaishnava traditions also employ a recitation of names of Narasimha and reading scriptures, notably the Bhagavata Purana aloud.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to Gita Mahatmya of Padma Purana, reading the 3rd, 7th and 9th chapter of Bhagavad Gita and mentally offering the result to departed persons helps them to get released from their ghostly situation. Kirtan, continuous playing of mantras, keeping scriptures and holy pictures of the deities (Shiva, Vishnu, Hanuman, Brahma, Shakti, etc.) (especially of Narasimha) in the house, burning incense offered during a Puja, sprinkling water from holy rivers, and blowing conches used in puja are other effective practices.[citation needed] It is also believed that praying to Lord Hanuman gives the best result. It is also mentioned in the Hanuman Chalisa. It is believed that just uttering the name of Lord Hanuman makes the evil forces and devils tremble, in fear.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The main puranic resource on ghost and death-related information is Garuda Purana.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; A complete description of birth and death and also about the human soul are explained in Katō Upanishad, a part of Yajur Veda. A summary of this is also available as a separate scripture called Kāttakaṃ. - [Exorcism (Hinduism)][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Shri Hanuman Mandir, Sarangpur][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The image of ***Shri Hanuman Mandir*** at the [Hanuman temple in Sarangpur][4] is said to be so powerful that a mere look at it by people affected by evil spirits, drives the evil spirits out of the people affected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [**Exorcism in Hinduism**][5]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Hindu tradition, beliefs and practices pertaining to the practice of exorcism are prominently connected with the ancient Dravidians in the south. Of the four Vedas (holy books of the Hindus), the Atharva Veda is said to contain the secrets related to magic and medicine. Many of the spells described in this book are for casting out demons and evil spirits. These beliefs are particularly strong and practiced in West Bengal, Orissa and southern states like Kerala. The basic means of exorcism are mantra and yajna used in both Vedic and Tantric traditions.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Vaishnava traditions also employ a recitation of names of Narasimha and reading scriptures (notably Bhagavata Purana) aloud. The main Vedic resource on ghost- and death-related information is Garuda Purana.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exorcism&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/6W6sQ.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanuman_temple,_Salangpur&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Exorcism" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20567" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6181" RevisionGUID="497e6c34-c121-422a-9042-5eb773ac63b7" CreationDate="2020-02-10T19:19:40.583" UserId="5511" Text="You may be referring to a legend in the [Huarochirí Manuscript](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huarochir%C3%AD_Manuscript) mentioned in this book: [Colonial Spanish America](https://books.google.be/books?id=Ww-J9Kjb2KgC&amp;pg=PA6&amp;lpg=PA6&amp;dq=native+american+mythology+%22objects+coming+to+life%22&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=cfhVNzRk13&amp;sig=ACfU3U3QEVj1Nm5FPY_NtaGsfu2OTystNg&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwiihvWf18fnAhXQjqQKHfIMAvoQ6AEwAHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&amp;q=native%20american%20mythology%20%22objects%20coming%20to%20life%22&amp;f=false). Animate objects in this text are linked to a beginning-of-the-world event, the first sunrise, set in ancient times (which can of course also be considered an end-of-the-world event for the mythical time before the first sunrise).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An exhaustive study of this can be found in Linda Brown's [When Pre-Sunrise Beings Inhabit a Post-Sunrise World: Time, Animate Objects, and Contemporary Tz'utujil Maya Ritual Practitioners](https://www.academia.edu/12086525/When_Pre-Sunrise_Beings_Inhabit_a_Post-Sunrise_World_Time_Animate_Objects_and_Contemporary_Tzutujil_Maya_Ritual_Practitioners)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20569" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6182" RevisionGUID="f4d5fba0-4691-43d6-a735-eda347f9ddb6" CreationDate="2020-02-11T00:14:58.693" UserId="5787" Text="Insofar as the earliest native British traditions go, at least, it doesn't seem so.&#xA;&#xA;Looking through some early Welsh texts (*Culhwch ac Olwen, Pa Gur,* the *Trioedd Ynys Prydein,*  the *Beddau* stanzas, a couple mentions in poetry), I can't find anything that suggests Bedwyr possessed magical abilities.  The closest thing of relevance I saw was in *CaO*, when Cai describes Bedwyr's spear: &quot;The head of his spear comes away from its shaft, it draws blood from the wind and lands on its shaft again&quot;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;, which certainly sounds like some sort of enchantment, but seems tied entirely to the weapon itself.  (The line is obscure to me; it might just be figurative language, or Cai blowing smoke or something, but in any case, it doesn't seem to be what you're describing.)&#xA;&#xA;So then I thought, maybe someone might have misunderstood the concept in Welsh literature of a *cynneddf*, which means something like &quot;magical trait&quot;.  It's not something inherently negative, *per se* (and some are less than what we'd think of as &quot;magical&quot;; one of Cai's was just that he was stubborn).   But in the texts I checked, I didn't see that word associated with Bedwyr anywhere, either.&#xA;&#xA;It's possible there's other literature that does associate him with magical powers; I didn't look at anything from later medieval texts (i.e, anything demonstrably based primarily upon post-Galfridian writings).&#xA;&#xA;So, while the earliest descriptions of Bedwyr do consistently highlight his combat prowess and preternatural reflexes, there's no indication (from what I've seen) that there's a supernatural element in play.&#xA;&lt;hr/&gt;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1.&lt;/sup&gt; Taken from [the Sioned Davies translation][1].&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=1CWQDwAAQBAJ" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20570" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6183" RevisionGUID="9f588fce-56fb-4e9a-ad98-30bb0d824b00" CreationDate="2020-02-12T03:50:52.623" UserId="5945" Text="I am hoping to find clarification on the correct spelling and meaning of the following song for Ọṣun:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; * _Jowo gba mi se o ore, yeye Ọṣun (2x)_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; _A di di ndi (2x)_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; _Osun Sekese Oloo ya Iyun_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm told that Jowo means _please_ and ore is _friend_. I know that _yeye_ is mother.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Google translates](https://translate.google.com/#view=home&amp;op=translate&amp;sl=yo&amp;tl=en&amp;text=gba%20mi%20se%20o%20ore) _Jowo gba mi se o ore_ as _accept me friend_. Google translates _a di di ndi_ to _we are the husband_, but _adi di ndi_ as _exist_.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Looks like ṣekese means _immediately_, oloo means _fertile_ and Iyun means _pregnancy_, so I'm leaning towards&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; * Ọṣun ṣekese oloo 'ya Iyun&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With _'ya_ referring to _Iya_ or &quot;mother&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the overall meaning would be something like:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; * Ọṣun, please accept me, friend.&#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;   Exist, exist.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;   Ọṣun the immediate fertile mother of pregnancy&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any more informed insight, correction, clarification most welcome.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you and aṣe." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20571" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6183" RevisionGUID="9f588fce-56fb-4e9a-ad98-30bb0d824b00" CreationDate="2020-02-12T03:50:52.623" UserId="5945" Text="Translation and meaning of an Ọṣun chant" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20572" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6183" RevisionGUID="9f588fce-56fb-4e9a-ad98-30bb0d824b00" CreationDate="2020-02-12T03:50:52.623" UserId="5945" Text="|translation|yoruba|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20573" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6183" RevisionGUID="ba90719d-83f0-43ad-9217-28b21abc27c2" CreationDate="2020-02-12T05:36:13.887" UserId="5945" Comment="add an update" Text="I am hoping to find clarification on the correct spelling and meaning of the following song for Ọṣun:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; * _Jowo gba mi se o ore, yeye Ọṣun (2x)_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; _A di di ndi (2x)_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; _Osun Sekese Oloo ya Iyun_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm told that Jowo means _please_ and ore is _friend_. I know that _yeye_ is mother.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Google translates](https://translate.google.com/#view=home&amp;op=translate&amp;sl=yo&amp;tl=en&amp;text=gba%20mi%20se%20o%20ore) _Jowo gba mi se o ore_ as _accept me friend_. Google translates _a di di ndi_ to _we are the husband_, but _adi di ndi_ as _exist_.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Looks like ṣekese means _immediately_, oloo means _fertile_ and Iyun means _pregnancy_, so I'm leaning towards&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; * Ọṣun ṣekese oloo 'ya Iyun&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With _'ya_ referring to _Iya_ or &quot;mother&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the overall meaning would be something like:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; * Ọṣun, please accept me, friend.&#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;   Exist, exist.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;   Ọṣun the immediate fertile mother of pregnancy&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any more informed insight, correction, clarification most welcome.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you and aṣe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# UPDATE&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It appears that &quot;ṣe ke se&quot; could mean _do it_." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20574" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6184" RevisionGUID="60e2ee92-683f-4be9-8698-1d66ee218eb4" CreationDate="2020-02-13T23:48:46.613" UserId="5787" Text="Sadly, I've never been able to find any direct references to Mathonwy anywhere.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Bromwich][1] (pg. 439) mentions that the name Mathonwy itself could be a doublet for the name Math, like so many names in *Culhwch ac Olwen* are.  If so, Mathonwy may never have represented a specific character.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One final thing worth mentioning is that it's unclear whether Mathonwy was Math's father or mother, as the form of the name could be appropriate for either a male or female.  Additionally, the *Mabinogi* suggests Math may have belonged to a matrilinear descent line. &#xD;&#xA;Again, Bromwich points out that Math &quot;is succeeded by the sister’s son (Lleu) of his sister’s son (Gwydion). In these circumstances a matronymic might be expected, such as in fact we find that Gwydion receives: he is known invariably as *vab Dôn*.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books/about/Trioedd_ynys_Prydein.html?id=m5piAAAAMAAJ" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20580" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6186" RevisionGUID="06885644-d6b4-4495-be8c-f5514baf8df6" CreationDate="2020-02-14T09:54:47.983" UserId="6679" Text="Hecuba is Apollo's former lover. They had children together, all the more he sided with the Trojans" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20581" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6186" RevisionGUID="26198301-be11-4e7d-b51e-501206c7d9e6" CreationDate="2020-02-14T10:00:16.357" UserId="6679" Comment="added 3 characters in body" Text="Hecuba is Apollo's former lover and they had children together, all the more he sided with the Trojans" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20586" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6188" RevisionGUID="a168f826-8d6f-4cc9-9b10-5ce411d93a6e" CreationDate="2020-02-14T16:10:03.720" UserId="6680" Text="I know that Phra Narai (Narayana) declared that he will reincarnate as a human (Phra Ram/Rama) and kill Thotsakan but when Thotsakan was reborn as the demon king of Lanka and started conquering the three realms, wouldn’t Phra In and Phra Isuan have both stepped in and said “*hehe sorry buddy you’re not doing this*”? Why didn’t they directly intervene against Thotsakan and put him in his place? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20587" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6188" RevisionGUID="a168f826-8d6f-4cc9-9b10-5ce411d93a6e" CreationDate="2020-02-14T16:10:03.720" UserId="6680" Text="In the Ramakien (Thai version of the Ramayana) how was it that Thotsakan was able to conquer all three realms of the universe?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20588" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6188" RevisionGUID="a168f826-8d6f-4cc9-9b10-5ce411d93a6e" CreationDate="2020-02-14T16:10:03.720" UserId="6680" Text="|hindu|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20594" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6191" RevisionGUID="2007ab77-a495-4cec-ab96-38b90295fcc5" CreationDate="2020-02-15T02:35:39.143" UserId="6683" Text="I wasn't sure what the right place was to ask this question but since it pertains to identifying presumably occult or pagan symbols this seemed like the right stackexchange.&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;I saw these symbols on a few pieces of clothing and have been trying to find their meaning for days. There are three symbols in total, five if you want to count the variations of two of them as separate symbols. They each contain a crescent moon and some parts that are reminiscent of demonic sigils but I can't pin down these exact symbols.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found a different version of the garment itself that contains Icelandic symbols and the actual Nábrókarstafur but nothing on this set of symbols.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the origin and meaning of these five symbols?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/bBYAm.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20595" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6191" RevisionGUID="2007ab77-a495-4cec-ab96-38b90295fcc5" CreationDate="2020-02-15T02:35:39.143" UserId="6683" Text="What are the meanings for these symbols?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20596" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6191" RevisionGUID="2007ab77-a495-4cec-ab96-38b90295fcc5" CreationDate="2020-02-15T02:35:39.143" UserId="6683" Text="|occultism|pagan|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20597" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6192" RevisionGUID="9e49c3bc-2a5a-4ea3-a1fd-8f78872eac33" CreationDate="2020-02-15T11:05:45.993" UserId="5511" Text="These are mostly not pagan symbols in origin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The crescent moon with crosses derives from one of the oldest symbols for orthodox  Christianity and was taken over by early Islam, replacing the crosses with a star.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;The crescent moons (1 with semicircle, 1 with lines) are likely a simplified rendering from ancient Hindu moon mandala patterns.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is the only symbol that arguably has what Christians would consider pagan origins. It is an alternative rendering of the Celtic triple moon symbol.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/tAA8C.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/WUpl6.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/aZ7JN.png&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20599" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6194" RevisionGUID="6710ec6e-6f89-40d3-a96e-a48ec957e905" CreationDate="2020-02-15T16:16:02.880" UserId="6680" Text="When Phra Narai caught Nontuk off guard and forced him onto the ground (where he proceeded to act like a whiny little bitch to Phra Narai) and made the absolutely absurd statement that he could’ve easily defeated Phra Narai but Phra Narai was being uNFaiR since he had four arms. In that case, why not just tell Nontuk to shut his whiny ass wOe Is mE up, lop his head off, and end it at that? Not saying that I oppose Phra Narai or his action since I think that he’s a badass but it does make me wonder. &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20600" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6194" RevisionGUID="6710ec6e-6f89-40d3-a96e-a48ec957e905" CreationDate="2020-02-15T16:16:02.880" UserId="6680" Text="In the Ramakien, why did Phra Narai declare that when both him and Nontuk reincarnate they’ll fight each other again?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20601" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6194" RevisionGUID="6710ec6e-6f89-40d3-a96e-a48ec957e905" CreationDate="2020-02-15T16:16:02.880" UserId="6680" Text="|hindu|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20606" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6198" RevisionGUID="50f74ac0-5095-4574-a761-f7fba8474066" CreationDate="2020-02-16T21:42:16.100" UserId="1241" Text="**What are the meanings for these symbols?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They are simply modern punk prints for selling purposes! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Punk Style Moon Print][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Punk Style Moon Print][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Punk Style Moon Print][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For myself, they seem to be a **Gothic Style Print**, but they are listed as **Punk Style Moon Print**. Thus they represent simply the different phases of the moon! Nothing more, nothing less.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/JmOrF.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/hDbWq.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/pRiCD.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20607" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6198" RevisionGUID="8ca02067-c494-4044-968a-689b1496ef05" CreationDate="2020-02-16T21:49:50.287" UserId="1241" Comment="added 114 characters in body" Text="**What are the meanings for these symbols?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They are simply modern punk prints for selling purposes! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Punk Style Moon Print][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Punk Style Moon Print][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Punk Style Moon Print][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For myself, they seem to be a **Gothic Style Print**, but they are listed as [**Punk Style Moon Print**][4]. Thus they represent simply the different phases of the moon! Nothing more, nothing less.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/JmOrF.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/hDbWq.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/pRiCD.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.beautifulhalo.com/punk-style-moon-print-long-sleeve-open-front-hooded-coat-p-316113.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20609" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4744" RevisionGUID="2a0533a2-d160-4761-be10-f09d9f3bc514" CreationDate="2020-02-17T16:02:20.320" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="20610" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6200" RevisionGUID="48bc9d36-0da7-4982-acbd-86facecb0ba2" CreationDate="2020-02-17T19:45:03.327" UserId="5511" Text="Until recently, it was thought that the phenomena of solar eclipses was virtually unmentioned in the Ancient Egyptian canon. Except for a single story of Hathor luring Ra, the sun-god, back on his celestial track, very little concrete textual references were found. &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;[This paper](http://www.egiptomania.com/EEF/Blindness.pdf) examines relevant texts which may throw some light on the mystery of the apparent absence of mentions of solar eclipses. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some of these texts are penitential, expressing remorse for wrongdoing and seeking forgiveness or the lifting of a punishment imposed by a god, while others are hymns and prayers. Although the form of the expressions used in the actual texts varies slightly from case to case and their translation varies from one researcher to another, all of these texts contain a form of words which seem to be trying to express the concept of darkness at a time which was unusual: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ‘to see / behold darkness by day’ (of your making); &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ‘to see a darkness of thy / my making’; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ‘in her hand by night as by day’ &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ‘to see the darkness you create’; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ‘the day-time darkness thou has made’; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ‘to see day like night’;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The list of relevant texts:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Stela Cairo JE 37463&#xD;&#xA; - Ostracon Cairo 12202&#xD;&#xA; - Grafitto Pawah (in TT139)&#xD;&#xA; - Stela Bankes No. 6 (KRI I, 413)&#xD;&#xA; - Stela BM 374 (KRI V, 645)&#xD;&#xA; - Stela BM 589 (KRI III, 771-2) &#xD;&#xA; - Stela Turin 50046 (KRI III, 668-9)&#xD;&#xA; - Stela Turin 50050 (KRI IV, 338, B.VIII)&#xD;&#xA; - Stela Turin 50051 (KRI I, 373-4)&#xD;&#xA; - Stela Turin 50052 (KRI I, 390)&#xD;&#xA; - Stela Turin 50058 (KRI III, 772-3) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20612" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6201" RevisionGUID="d2acd95e-10f0-4696-a07d-1cc8a1e0b46d" CreationDate="2020-02-18T17:53:12.413" UserId="5511" Text="The article on Wikipedia gives as examples of temples with Kimon facing north-east:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Enryaku-ji&#xD;&#xA; - Kan'ei-ji&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;These temples are deliberately constructed for the Kimon to face the nearby (Capitol) city, their function is to actually keep the Oni _out_ of the city (i.e. build where the Oni would gather outside the city). Cities were built to have their Kimon protected with clusters of temples place towards the northeast. Allegedly, the spiritual power of these sepulchers would rebuff the evil flowing from the Kimon. If we look at the example of Kyoto, we see that Enryaku-ji on Mt. Hiei sits at exactly where the city’s Kimon would be. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Traditionally, many buildings in Japan have been erected with some sort of odd irregularity towards the northeast. In many cases, this peculiarity takes the form of an L-shaped indentation that is said to keep out the oni and other spirits. Even the Kyoto Imperial Palace has notched corners on the northeastern exterior. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On a final note, I should probably mention that the Kimon built in this direction will typically have a &quot;spirit screen&quot;, i.e. a structure right behind the gate blocking a direct line of entrance:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is believed that Oni and other spirits can only travel in straight lines. You will find this &quot;spirit screen&quot; in many Chinese and Japanese traditional buildings, including ordinary family houses.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Is4EK.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20613" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6202" RevisionGUID="7929e9d3-4746-40f7-b133-59c0f5e7180a" CreationDate="2020-02-19T19:40:57.420" UserId="5787" Text="European folklore is replete with mentions of supernatural creatures being averse to iron, especially in the northwestern and northeastern regions.  (Allow me also to highlight for passersby, as mentioned in the article you linked, that “cold iron” traditionally just signifies normal, plain-ol' iron, but nowadays the meaning is often extended to more fanciful connotations.)&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The article you mentioned already discusses horseshoes, which were common apotropaic items.  There were also many things iron served well as a practical construction material for, like gates and bedframes, to which it would lend the added peace of mind of deterring evil.&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Insofar as folklore, here are some common motifs to get your research started:&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xA; - A faerie marries a mortal man, either a) on the specific condition she not touch iron, or b) that her husband not strike her, which he eventually inadvertently does with something that just happens to be made of iron. The Welsh [Llyn y Fan Fach tale][1] with it’s many variants are the archetypal example of this theme.&#xD;&#xA;&#xA; - More generalized than the article you linked (which mentions burying a knife specifically), in many tales simply burying anything iron beneath the threshold of your home or property will keep out both malicious or helpful creatures.  In other tales the item need only be hung on the outside of the house (like horseshoes).&#xD;&#xA;&#xA; - Tales in which a friendly faerie needs help repairing something made of iron, or borrowing something made of iron (often a cooking utensil).  In these instances, it seems there is something about the faerie owning the item or some constraint upon how they can handle it which is the problem, as the faeries are still able to touch the iron safely in the tales.&#xD;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llyn_y_Fan_Fach#Legend_of_Llyn_y_Fan_Fach" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20614" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6191" RevisionGUID="bb649717-60e2-4908-abe8-0b90fdeb78f1" CreationDate="2020-02-20T16:15:33.033" UserId="6683" Comment="the answer didn't answer my question so I had to clarify it better" Text="I wasn't sure what the right place was to ask this question but since it pertains to identifying presumably occult or pagan symbols this seemed like the right stackexchange.&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;I saw these symbols on a few pieces of clothing and have been trying to find their meaning for days. There are three symbols in total, five if you want to count the variations of two of them as separate symbols. They each contain a crescent moon and some parts that are reminiscent of demonic sigils but I can't pin down these exact symbols.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found a different version of the garment itself that contains Icelandic symbols and the actual Nábrókarstafur but nothing on this set of symbols.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the origin and meaning of the five symbols presented on **this garment specifically**?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/bBYAm.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20615" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="6191" RevisionGUID="bb649717-60e2-4908-abe8-0b90fdeb78f1" CreationDate="2020-02-20T16:15:33.033" Comment="Proposed by 6683 approved by 1241, 5726 edit id of 1802" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20620" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5903" RevisionGUID="ba9fff28-25dc-4a11-97c3-816117ada686" CreationDate="2020-02-21T17:02:55.453" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="20621" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6204" RevisionGUID="39e82265-8a0b-48ca-9b06-71a12c6d4b13" CreationDate="2020-02-21T17:11:46.207" UserId="6700" Text="I was wondering if anyone on here has a good reference for Christian mythos in the way of specific characters/Christian mythological creatures, i.e. Nephilim and Seraphim? Anything having to do with the hierarchies of heaven and hell, directly referenced in the Bible or thinly correlated, anything works." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20622" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6204" RevisionGUID="39e82265-8a0b-48ca-9b06-71a12c6d4b13" CreationDate="2020-02-21T17:11:46.207" UserId="6700" Text="Reference texts for Christian mythos" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20623" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6204" RevisionGUID="39e82265-8a0b-48ca-9b06-71a12c6d4b13" CreationDate="2020-02-21T17:11:46.207" UserId="6700" Text="|christianity|angels|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20624" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5662" RevisionGUID="65df4a7c-f69e-4f6d-8ff6-ca4608527b9b" CreationDate="2020-02-21T18:02:15.293" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="20625" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6205" RevisionGUID="557fec8f-678a-44ec-83a4-3e163bf13e36" CreationDate="2020-02-21T21:55:04.577" UserId="5787" Text="Onomastic tales like this one are common in literature and histories, be it the Middle Ages or Ancient Greece (there are several others in *The Mabinogion*, as well).  Such place-name explanations can involve real or fictitious locales, and often provide rather fanciful rationalizations.  In this particular instance, the author (or, perhaps originally, poet) seems to be describing actual places known at the time by those names.  Asking what their “original” names were implies that their names were changed *because* of influence from the tale.  However, it’s more likely that these places *already* had those names, and then the author provided this tale as a way to explain the origins of those names.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Still, it must be said that the reverse is not impossible, in that one or more of these places might have commonly been known by another name, which subsequently changed because the tale somehow became associated with that place.  In this particular case, we simply don’t know.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Additionally, I can provide you with some information on what the corresponding present-day names of said places might be.  Taken from [Sioned Davies’ translation of *The Mabinogion*][1], in her explanatory notes (pg. 50), she writes,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is difficult to locate these places with any degree of certainty. The *Mochdref* in the *uplands of Ceredigion* may refer to a location to the north-east of Aberystwyth, in the vicinity of today’s Nant-y-moch reservoir. *Elenid* is in southern Powys, and refers to the mountainous land known as Pumlumon (Plynlimon) today. *Ceri* and *Arwystli* …  were a commot and cantref respectively, in the area around Newtown and Llanidloes; indeed, about 3 miles south west of Newtown is the parish of *Mochdref*. The commot of *Mochnant* was partly in Denbighshire and partly in Montgomeryshire, while the Mochdref in the cantref of Rhos is located between Colwyn Bay and Llandudno.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=1CWQDwAAQBAJ" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20626" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="6088" RevisionGUID="93871879-7af1-43a6-b969-bb6de925dab8" CreationDate="2020-02-22T18:37:39.887" UserId="6552" Comment="edited title" Text="Do European folklore creatures, like ogres, brownies, fairies,goblins etc. have characteristics attributed to anti-semitism?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20627" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6206" RevisionGUID="e11bd5b2-fae6-4a43-88bb-c78c2c94da61" CreationDate="2020-02-22T19:58:35.343" UserId="6704" Text="I'm extremely new to all of this so apologies if this is trivial. However, I'm currently reading *The Library of Greek Mythology* by Apollodorus and he makes references to Pluto in the beginning of the book. I was under the impression that Pluto was the Roman version of Hades, so why does Apollodorus refer to him as Pluto? And even more confusingly, why does he change to calling him Hades later on in the book?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any clarification here would be amazing, thanks!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20628" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6206" RevisionGUID="e11bd5b2-fae6-4a43-88bb-c78c2c94da61" CreationDate="2020-02-22T19:58:35.343" UserId="6704" Text="Hades and Pluto (Apollodorus)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20629" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6206" RevisionGUID="e11bd5b2-fae6-4a43-88bb-c78c2c94da61" CreationDate="2020-02-22T19:58:35.343" UserId="6704" Text="|greek|hades|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20630" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6207" RevisionGUID="15f54b76-6dbf-4750-9aef-0011ebce4694" CreationDate="2020-02-23T01:37:28.573" UserId="4152" Text="Best bets for anything on the angelic race will be the [Catholic Encyclopedia][1] (online or in print) and the [Catechism of the Catholic Church][2] (paragraphs 325 and following). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A lot of &quot;angel stuff&quot; you find in the popular press is probably more new-agey dross than it is factual or informative. The truth is, there just isn't a whole lot more known about angels &amp; nephilim than what you find in the Bible itself. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p5.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20631" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6208" RevisionGUID="01aa4fae-32da-4a6b-87aa-fd9f9c6d76aa" CreationDate="2020-02-23T05:52:36.150" UserId="5787" Text="Welcome!  This is a good question, and the short answer is that the Greeks used both names, depending on the context.&#xA;&#xA;&quot;Hades&quot; is the older name associated with this deity.  Over time, of course, that word also came to be associated with the realm of the underworld itself.  (In classical Greek, unlike English, the grammar makes it clear whether you're talking about the god or the place.)&#xA;&#xA;Eventually, we encounter the notion of &quot;Pluto&quot; in Greek literature.  Here, you'll find it used, first, as a ritual title for Hades. But more and more, the word &quot;Hades&quot; becomes primarily associated with the place, and the word &quot;Pluto&quot; emerges as a way to indicate a different &quot;persona&quot; of sorts from the ancient, long-established ideal of Hades.  Pluto is *not* a separate figure from Hades; rather, Pluto is something of a different characterization of the same god.  (Basically, Pluto is a more positive, less rape-y version of Hades.)&#xA;&#xA;When the Romans borrowed these names in from Greek, they associated the word/name &quot;Pluto&quot; with the Roman god [Dis Pater][1], and &quot;Hades&quot; with the Roman god [Orcus][2]. Then for some reason, the Romans started using &quot;Pluto&quot; to *also* refer to their god of the underworld. This is where the common modern-day misconception comes from: people nowadays usually hear that &quot;Pluto&quot; is the Roman name for &quot;Hades,&quot; but in reality, both names were originally Greek.  Romans and Greeks did not use the names in precisely the same way.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dis_Pater&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orcus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20632" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6208" RevisionGUID="62d1935b-0e53-4bd9-955e-1b7fdedf4ae1" CreationDate="2020-02-23T06:09:09.823" UserId="5787" Comment="edited body; added 1 character in body" Text="Welcome!  This is a good question, and the short answer is that the Greeks used both names, depending on the context.&#xA;&#xA;&quot;Hades&quot; is the older name associated with this deity.  Over time, of course, that word also came to be associated with the realm of the underworld itself.  (In classical Greek, unlike English, the grammar makes it clear whether you're talking about the god or the place.)&#xA;&#xA;Eventually, we encounter the notion of &quot;Pluto&quot; in Greek literature.  Here, you'll find it used, first, as a ritual title for Hades. But more and more, the word &quot;Hades&quot; becomes primarily associated with the place, and the word &quot;Pluto&quot; emerges as a way to indicate a different &quot;persona&quot; of sorts from the ancient, long-established ideal of Hades.  Pluto is *not* a separate figure from Hades; rather, Pluto is something of a different characterization of the same god.  (Basically, Pluto is a more positive, less rape-y version of Hades.)&#xA;&#xA;When the Romans borrowed these names in from Greek, they associated the word/name &quot;Pluto&quot; with the Roman god [Dis Pater][1], and &quot;Hades&quot; with the Roman god [Orcus][2]. Some time afterwards, the Romans started using &quot;Pluto&quot; to *also* refer to their god of the underworld. This is where the common modern-day misconception comes from: people nowadays usually hear that &quot;Pluto&quot; is the Roman name for &quot;Hades,&quot; but in reality, both names were originally Greek.  Romans and Greeks did not use the names in precisely the same ways.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dis_Pater&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orcus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20633" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6209" RevisionGUID="65a79f86-fe73-4a00-8dd5-bced740ba143" CreationDate="2020-02-23T11:58:56.900" UserId="5511" Text="Most of the angel mythos isn't Christian or even Judaic in origin. The word comes from the Greek *angelos*, which itself could be considered as a translation of the Hebrew word mal’akh, meaning ’messenger’, etymology suggesting a being responsible for carrying messages between the human world and some other realm or realms of existence. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sumerian drawings have left us ample evidence in the form of winged humans connected to their belief in ’messengers of the gods’, angelic forces who ran errands between gods and humans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Sumerians also believed that each person had a ’ghost’ of some sort (that we would now probably label as ’guardian angel’) with this entity remaining a constant companion for a person throughout their life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Altars that appear to be dedicated to guardian angels have been found in the excavations of ancient Sumerian homes, along with stone engravings and temple wall paintings of human figures with wings. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Sumerian creation stories, angels were known under the name of Anunnaki or Anannage (great sons of Anu), founders of their culture. Ea was the chief God of Sun and Sky, and the tale of the Nephilim, alluded to in Genesis 6 is based on some of the negative aspects of the Apkallu tradition. The apkallu in Sumerian mythology were seven legendary culture heroes from before the Flood, of human descent, but possessing extraordinary wisdom from the gods, and one of the seven apkallu, Adapa, was therefore called &quot;son of Ea&quot; the Babylonian god, despite his human origin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In one of these Sumerian stories, Ninlil or Ninkharsag ‘Lady of Kharsag,’ wife of Enlil, asks the council of seven to create Eden (E-din) or heavenly garden. For Sumerians, E-din was ‘abode of rightful ones.’ This is the same heavenly garden which also can be found in the Bible. The Hebrew myth is very similar to the one found in Sumerian “Epic of Gilgamesh” furthermore linking with the Book of Genesis ends with the story of Tower of Babel (Babylon)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After the polytheistic Semitic tribes had conquered the Sumerians around 1900 BC their mythical cosmology borrowed the notion of angels from the vanquished Sumerians.  &#xD;&#xA;These Semitic peoples developed the idea of a corpus of angels split into groupings answerable to each of the many Semitic gods, further subdividing these groups into vertical ’ranked’ hierarchies, a notion which persisted into Zoroastrianism and monotheistic Judaism.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Hw93y.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20640" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6208" RevisionGUID="011a6aef-8684-4a64-a9b2-1346fadf3829" CreationDate="2020-02-24T01:36:09.103" UserId="5787" Comment="added 510 characters in body" Text="Welcome!  This is a good question, and the short answer is that the Greeks used both names, depending on the context.&#xA;&#xA;&quot;Hades&quot; is the older name associated with this deity.  Over time, of course, that word also came to be associated with the realm of the underworld itself&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;. (In classical Greek, unlike English, the grammar makes it clear whether you're talking about the god or the place.)&#xA;&#xA;Eventually, we encounter the notion of &quot;Pluto&quot; in Greek literature.  Here, you'll find it used, first, as a ritual title for Hades&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;. But more and more, the word &quot;Hades&quot; becomes primarily associated with the place, and the word &quot;Pluto&quot; emerges as a way to indicate a different &quot;persona&quot; of sorts from the ancient, long-established ideal of Hades.  Pluto is *not* a separate figure from Hades; rather, Pluto is something of a different characterization of the same god&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;. (Basically, Pluto is a more positive, less rape-y version of Hades&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;.)&#xA;&#xA;When the Romans borrowed these names in from Greek, they associated the word/name &quot;Pluto&quot; with the Roman god [Dis Pater][1], and &quot;Hades&quot; with the Roman god [Orcus][2]. Some time afterwards, the Romans started using &quot;Pluto&quot; to *also* refer to their god of the underworld. This is where the common modern-day misconception comes from: people nowadays usually hear that &quot;Pluto&quot; is the Roman name for &quot;Hades,&quot; but in reality, both names were originally Greek.  Romans and Greeks did not use the names in precisely the same ways&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;.&#xA;&#xA;--------&#xA;&#xA;1. Editor's notes, [Oxford World's Classics edition of the *Library*][3]&#xA;2. See Hansen's [Classical Mythology][4]&#xA;3. Compare the *Library* account with Ovid's descriptions of Persephone's abduction in *Metamorphoses* and the *Fasti.* (Ovid refers to him as Dis rather than Pluto, though.)&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dis_Pater&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orcus&#xA;  [3]: https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=23Q2F7wK3XAC&#xA;  [4]: https://books.google.com/books/about/Classical_Mythology.html?id=a-NmaO-kM2UC" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20641" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6208" RevisionGUID="bd5e9f81-44c4-40bc-8a2e-fe0317a4e7bf" CreationDate="2020-02-24T03:39:34.690" UserId="5787" Comment="added 165 characters in body" Text="Welcome!  This is a good question, and the short answer is that the Greeks used both names, depending on the context.&#xA;&#xA;&quot;Hades&quot; is the older name associated with this deity.  Over time, of course, that word also came to be associated with the realm of the underworld itself&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;. (In classical Greek, unlike English, the grammar makes it clear whether you're talking about the god or the place.)&#xA;&#xA;Eventually, we encounter the notion of &quot;Pluto&quot; in Greek literature.  Here, you'll find it used, first, as a ritual title for Hades&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;. But more and more, the word &quot;Hades&quot; becomes primarily associated with the place, and the word &quot;Pluto&quot; emerges as a way to indicate a different &quot;persona&quot; of sorts from the ancient, long-established ideal of Hades.  Pluto is *not* a separate figure from Hades; rather, Pluto is something of a different characterization of the same god&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;. (Basically, Pluto is a more positive, less rape-y version of Hades&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;.)&#xA;&#xA;When the Romans borrowed these names in from Greek, they associated the word/name &quot;Pluto&quot; with the Roman god [Dis Pater][1], and &quot;Hades&quot; with the Roman god [Orcus][2]. Some time afterwards, the Romans started using &quot;Pluto&quot; to *also* refer to their god of the underworld. This is where the common modern-day misconception comes from: people nowadays usually hear that &quot;Pluto&quot; is the Roman name for &quot;Hades,&quot; but in reality, both names were originally Greek.&#xA;&#xA;And that's just the start.  There are many variants in usage over the centuries.  The take-away here is that Romans and Greeks did not use the names in precisely the same ways&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;, and there was sometimes overlap. But they did use both.&#xA;&#xA;--------&#xA;&#xA;1. Editor's notes, [Oxford World's Classics edition of the *Library*][3]&#xA;2. See Hansen's [Classical Mythology][4]&#xA;3. Compare the *Library* account with Ovid's descriptions of Persephone's abduction in *Metamorphoses* and the *Fasti.* (Ovid refers to him as Dis rather than Pluto, though.)&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dis_Pater&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orcus&#xA;  [3]: https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=23Q2F7wK3XAC&#xA;  [4]: https://books.google.com/books/about/Classical_Mythology.html?id=a-NmaO-kM2UC" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20642" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6208" RevisionGUID="7ce4c0b5-dcec-48f7-90ea-f5a5de91378d" CreationDate="2020-02-24T03:45:44.263" UserId="5787" Comment="added 59 characters in body" Text="Welcome!  This is a good question, and the short answer is that the Greeks used both names, depending on the context.&#xA;&#xA;&quot;Hades&quot; is the older name associated with this deity.  Over time, of course, that word also came to be associated with the realm of the underworld itself&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;. (In classical Greek, unlike English, the grammar makes it clear whether you're talking about the god or the place.)&#xA;&#xA;Eventually, we encounter the notion of &quot;Pluto&quot; in Greek literature.  Here, you'll find it used, first, as a ritual title for Hades&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;. But more and more, the word &quot;Hades&quot; becomes primarily associated with the place, and the word &quot;Pluto&quot; emerges as a way to indicate a different &quot;persona&quot; of sorts from the ancient, long-established ideal of Hades.  Pluto is *not* a separate figure from Hades; rather, Pluto is something of a different characterization of the same god&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;. (Basically, Pluto is a more positive, less rape-y version of Hades&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;.)&#xA;&#xA;When the Romans borrowed these names in from Greek, they associated the word/name &quot;Pluto&quot; with the Roman god [Dis Pater][1], and &quot;Hades&quot; with the Roman god [Orcus][2]. Some time afterwards, the Romans started using &quot;Pluto&quot; to *also* refer to their god of the underworld. This is where the common modern-day misconception comes from: people nowadays usually hear that &quot;Pluto&quot; is the Roman name for &quot;Hades,&quot; but in reality, both names were originally Greek.&#xA;&#xA;And that's just the start!  There are many variants in usage over the centuries, and many cases of overlap.  But as far as your particular question goes, the take-away here is that Romans and Greeks did not use the names in precisely the same ways&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;, but the Greeks did in fact use both names.&#xA;&#xA;--------&#xA;&#xA;1. Editor's notes, [Oxford World's Classics edition of the *Library*][3]&#xA;2. See Hansen's [Classical Mythology][4]&#xA;3. Compare the *Library* account with Ovid's descriptions of Persephone's abduction in *Metamorphoses* and the *Fasti.* (Ovid refers to him as Dis rather than Pluto, though.)&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dis_Pater&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orcus&#xA;  [3]: https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=23Q2F7wK3XAC&#xA;  [4]: https://books.google.com/books/about/Classical_Mythology.html?id=a-NmaO-kM2UC" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20643" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6212" RevisionGUID="bfeff286-f53a-4733-aa0d-677d262475f7" CreationDate="2020-02-24T05:05:29.410" UserId="5787" Text="There are a lot of holes in what we know about the mythology surrounding Pluto/Hades and Persephone. We have traces of several traditions regarding their relationship and possible offspring, and they don't always jive with each other, as you've already seen.&#xA;&#xA;Here are some various other traditions I've found in the sources I have at hand:&#xA; &#xA; &#xA; - In the *Aeneid,* Virgil claims Pluto is the father of [Allecto][1].&#xA; &#xA; &#xA; &#xA; - Melinoë is indeed described (usually) as the daughter of Zeus and Persephone.  Confusion arises because here Zeus is identified with his &quot;chthonic&quot; form, and it's unclear whether &quot;chthonic Zeus&quot; is the same figure as Pluto. (There was probably more than one tradition regarding this identification.)&#xA; &#xA; - According to the *Theogony* and the  *Odyssey*, Ploutos/Plutus is the child of Demeter and Iasion.&#xA; &#xA;Regarding your last item, the Greeks used the name &quot;Pluto&quot; as well as &quot;Hades&quot;; it's not strictly a Roman counterpart to the name &quot;Hades&quot; the way we all were taught in school.  To the Greeks, Hades and Pluto were somewhat different aspects of the same figure.  You can see an example of this in Apollodorus' *Library,* where both names are employeed depending on the context, and in the *Iliad*, when Homer notes the deity's dual associations as both a god of the underworld and a god of wealth.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allecto" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20644" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6212" RevisionGUID="1a1b41ce-c044-4508-88bc-a6f379af7241" CreationDate="2020-02-24T05:13:19.333" UserId="5787" Comment="added 179 characters in body" Text="There are a lot of holes in what we know about the mythology surrounding Pluto/Hades and Persephone. We have traces of several traditions regarding their relationship and possible offspring, and they don't always jive with each other, as you've already seen.&#xA;&#xA;Here are some various other traditions I've found in the sources I have at hand:&#xA; &#xA; &#xA; &#xA; - In the *Aeneid,* Virgil claims Pluto is the father of [Allecto][1].&#xA; &#xA; &#xA; &#xA; &#xA; - Melinoë is indeed described (usually) as the daughter of Zeus and Persephone.  Confusion arises because here Zeus is identified with his &quot;chthonic&quot; form, and it's unclear whether &quot;chthonic Zeus&quot; is the same figure as Pluto. (There was probably more than one tradition regarding this identification.)&#xA; &#xA; &#xA; - According to the *Theogony* and the  *Odyssey*, Ploutos/Plutus is the child of Demeter and Iasion.&#xA; &#xA; - (Finally, although I can't for the life of me find the reference right now, I'm positive I read recently that one source had *Persephone* as the sterile one instead!)&#xA;&#xA; &#xA;Regarding your last item, the Greeks used the name &quot;Pluto&quot; as well as &quot;Hades&quot;; it's not strictly a Roman counterpart to the name &quot;Hades&quot; the way we all were taught in school.  To the Greeks, Hades and Pluto were somewhat different aspects of the same figure.  You can see an example of this in Apollodorus' *Library,* where both names are employeed depending on the context, and in the *Iliad*, when Homer notes the deity's dual associations as both a god of the underworld and a god of wealth.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allecto" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20645" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6212" RevisionGUID="6ed6485f-fdb9-4922-9b50-a5e6dbe11614" CreationDate="2020-02-24T17:43:56.843" UserId="5787" Comment="added 59 characters in body; added 1 character in body" Text="There are a lot of holes in what we know about the mythology surrounding Pluto/Hades and Persephone. We have traces of several traditions regarding their relationship and possible offspring, and they don't always jive with each other, as you've already seen.&#xA;&#xA;Here are some various other traditions I've found in the sources I have at hand:&#xA; &#xA; &#xA; &#xA; - In the *Aeneid,* Virgil claims Pluto is the father of [Allecto][1].&#xA; &#xA; &#xA; &#xA; &#xA; - Melinoë is indeed described (usually) as the daughter of Zeus and Persephone.  Confusion arises because here Zeus is identified with his &quot;chthonic&quot; form, and it's unclear whether &quot;chthonic Zeus&quot; is the same figure as Pluto. There was seemingly more than one tradition regarding this identification, and presently &quot;Zeus in disguise&quot; seems more prevalent to me.&#xA; &#xA; &#xA; - According to the *Theogony* and the  *Odyssey*, Ploutos/Plutus is the child of Demeter and Iasion.&#xA; &#xA; - (Finally, although I can't for the life of me find the reference right now, I'm positive I read recently that one source had *Persephone* as the sterile one instead!)&#xA;&#xA; &#xA;Regarding your last item, the Greeks used the name &quot;Pluto&quot; as well as &quot;Hades&quot;; it's not strictly a Roman counterpart to the name &quot;Hades&quot; the way we all were taught in school.  To the Greeks, Hades and Pluto were somewhat different aspects of the same figure.  You can see an example of this in Apollodorus' *Library,* where both names are employeed depending on the context, and in the *Iliad*, when Homer notes the deity's dual associations as both a god of the underworld and a god of wealth.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allecto" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20646" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6213" RevisionGUID="3b2fc157-153e-4031-bef9-4fd7e4683ee8" CreationDate="2020-02-25T00:05:39.707" UserId="5787" Text="##Technically, there isn't one (that we know of).&#xA;&#xA;Other comments here have mentioned Hathor and Apep/Apophis.  But this is misleading and misrepresents those figures.&#xA;&#xA;Apep is the embodiment of pure Chaos. He resides in the underworld, and does battle with Re and his entourage.  If Apep were ever to succeed, that wouldn't spell an eclipse, but rather it would mean the destruction of all Order and goodness in the world. At present, there are no explicit associations known of Apep with eclipses.&#xA;&#xA;Hathor is more complicated.  She is a sky deity (N.B., not *the* sky deity -- which is Nut -- but *a* sky deity), associated with the night sky as well as being one possible personification of the sun eye (or Eye of Re). She's also associated with music, dancing, cows, and cats, among other things.&#xA;&#xA;The body of mythology involving Hathor, including her role in the daily rebirth of the sun, is vast.  But there **may** be one story about an eclipse.&#xA;&#xA;There are different variations of this myth, but in short, either a) Re sends the sun eye (which can act independently from him) off to slaughter a bunch of misbehaving humans; b) the sun eye gets mad at Re and leaves for a bit; or c) both of these events occur. In this particular episode, Hathor is the figure fulfilling the role of Re' eye.&#xA;&#xA;Ultimately, things get resolved (by the diplomatic Thoth) and things return to normal.&#xA;&#xA;Should we associate this story with eclipses?  Maybe, but it's never indicated in the story that the sun is  &quot;hidden&quot; in some way: In the version where the sun eye gets angry and leaves temporarily, it's because there is *another* sun eye there taking her place!&#xA;&#xA;In the end, at best we can say is that there may be a myth associated with eclipses. But Hathor (or any other Egyptian deity) is never depicted as an &quot;eclipse god.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;If you'd like to investigate this further, I recommend [this book.][1] It specifically discusses Hathor and this myth, and the author raises the possibility of the eclipse association.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=Xt-mDwAAQBAJ&amp;dq=hathor%20eclipse&amp;source=gbs_navlinks_s" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20647" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6213" RevisionGUID="9df81191-0013-458e-9176-fa5e8382e54a" CreationDate="2020-02-25T00:16:01.253" UserId="5787" Comment="added 49 characters in body" Text="##Technically, there isn't one (that we know of).&#xA;&#xA;Other comments here have mentioned Hathor and Apep/Apophis.  But this is misleading and misrepresents those figures.&#xA;&#xA;Apep is the embodiment of pure Chaos. He resides in the underworld, and does battle with Re and his entourage.  If Apep were ever to succeed, that wouldn't spell an eclipse, but rather it would mean the destruction of all Order and goodness in the world. At present, there are no explicit associations known of Apep with eclipses.&#xA;&#xA;Hathor is more complicated.  She is a sky deity (N.B., not *the* sky deity -- which is Nut -- but *a* sky deity), associated with the night sky as well as being one possible personification of the sun eye (or Eye of Re). She's also associated with music, dancing, cows, and cats, among other things.&#xA;&#xA;The body of mythology involving Hathor, including her role in the daily rebirth of the sun, is vast.  But there **may** be one story about an eclipse.&#xA;&#xA;There are different variations of this myth, but in short, either a) Re sends the sun eye (which can act independently from him) off to slaughter a bunch of misbehaving humans; b) the sun eye gets mad at Re and leaves for a bit; or c) both of these events occur. In this particular episode, Hathor is the figure fulfilling the role of Re' eye.&#xA;&#xA;Ultimately, things get resolved (by the diplomatic Thoth) and things return to normal.&#xA;&#xA;Should we associate this story with eclipses?  Maybe, but it's never indicated in the story that the sun is  &quot;hidden&quot; in some way: In the version where the sun eye gets angry and leaves temporarily, it's because there is *another* sun eye there taking her place!&#xA;&#xA;In the end, at best we can say is that there quite possibly may be a myth associated with eclipses. But Hathor (or any other Egyptian deity) is never depicted as an &quot;eclipse god&quot; in any surviving writings to date.&#xA;&#xA;If you'd like to investigate this further, I recommend [this book.][1] It specifically discusses Hathor and this myth, and the author raises the possibility of the eclipse association.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=Xt-mDwAAQBAJ&amp;dq=hathor%20eclipse&amp;source=gbs_navlinks_s" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20648" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6213" RevisionGUID="414a7402-5d92-4eb0-8796-a97d5afc1da4" CreationDate="2020-02-25T04:14:19.663" UserId="5787" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="##Technically, there isn't one (that we know of).&#xA;&#xA;Other comments here have mentioned Hathor and Apep/Apophis.  But this is misleading and misrepresents those figures.&#xA;&#xA;Apep is the embodiment of pure Chaos. He resides in the underworld, and does battle with Re and his entourage.  If Apep were ever to succeed, that wouldn't spell an eclipse, but rather it would mean the destruction of all Order and goodness in the world. At present, there are no explicit associations known of Apep with eclipses.&#xA;&#xA;Hathor is more complicated.  She is a sky deity (N.B., not *the* sky deity -- which is Nut -- but *a* sky deity), associated with the night sky as well as being one possible personification of the sun eye (or Eye of Re). She's also associated with music, dancing, cows, and cats, among other things.&#xA;&#xA;The body of mythology involving Hathor, including her role in the daily rebirth of the sun, is vast.  But there *may* be one story about an eclipse.&#xA;&#xA;There are different variations of this myth, but in short, either a) Re sends the sun eye (which can act independently from him) off to slaughter a bunch of misbehaving humans; b) the sun eye gets mad at Re and leaves for a bit; or c) both of these events occur. In this particular episode, Hathor is the figure fulfilling the role of Re's eye.&#xA;&#xA;Ultimately, things get resolved (by the diplomatic Thoth) and things return to normal.&#xA;&#xA;Should we associate this story with eclipses?  Maybe, but it's never indicated in the story that the sun is  &quot;hidden&quot; in some way: In the version where the sun eye gets angry and leaves temporarily, it's because there is *another* sun eye there taking her place!&#xA;&#xA;In the end, at best we can say is that there quite possibly may be a myth associated with eclipses. But Hathor (or any other Egyptian deity) is never depicted as an &quot;eclipse god&quot; in any surviving writings to date.&#xA;&#xA;If you'd like to investigate this further, I recommend [this book.][1] It specifically discusses Hathor and this myth, and the author raises the possibility of the eclipse association.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=Xt-mDwAAQBAJ&amp;dq=hathor%20eclipse&amp;source=gbs_navlinks_s" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20649" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6214" RevisionGUID="f799dd3c-2cea-4afa-a29f-c3b4eb336bbb" CreationDate="2020-02-25T12:59:25.747" UserId="6712" Text="I'm looking for the exact name and possible etymology of an ancient celtic-iberian deity roughly named &quot;Pecosuosucivo&quot;, as I can faintly recollect. Probably linked with the town Úbeda in the province of Jaén. Any suggestions are welcome!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20650" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6214" RevisionGUID="f799dd3c-2cea-4afa-a29f-c3b4eb336bbb" CreationDate="2020-02-25T12:59:25.747" UserId="6712" Text="Ancient celtic-iberian deity roughly named &quot;Pecosuosucivo&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20651" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6214" RevisionGUID="f799dd3c-2cea-4afa-a29f-c3b4eb336bbb" CreationDate="2020-02-25T12:59:25.747" UserId="6712" Text="|celtic|etymology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20652" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3438" RevisionGUID="d19bb4cc-01a6-42b3-90ae-7db1560ddec1" CreationDate="2020-02-25T16:01:25.617" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="20654" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6216" RevisionGUID="0e0c6611-f5a7-4fe5-ba4a-3dfcfa801082" CreationDate="2020-02-26T01:07:22.047" UserId="6716" Text="In Norse this particular &quot;grím&quot; refers to a hood, not a mask. In context Odin uses the hood as a disguise (compare the recent TV adaptation of Arrow) and it is from this reference that it is applied more generally to a hood in Norse. Originally however this &quot;grím&quot; appears to have referred to face paint, as worn in battle, then the visor or mask of more elaborate helmets (look up the Sutton Hoo helmet for an example). Note that this &quot;mask/disguise/hood&quot; &quot;grím&quot; has a long vowel (so it rhymes with &quot;cream&quot;), while the unrelated one meaning &quot;severe&quot; has a short vowel. It is this long-vowel &quot;grím&quot; that appears as a name element in wider use (we know this as it appears consistently as Grim- when used a first element, where a short vowel element would [usually] be extended to Grima-). In English the &quot;visor&quot; sense with long vowel fell out of use with the Norman invasion and their new French terms for armour." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20655" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6216" RevisionGUID="a05f94fa-fc3e-460e-ace8-f20c6cce533f" CreationDate="2020-02-26T01:13:09.567" UserId="6716" Comment="added 104 characters in body" Text="In Norse this particular &quot;grím&quot; refers to a hood, not a mask. In context Odin uses the hood as a disguise (compare the recent TV adaptation of Arrow) and it is from this reference that it is applied more generally to a hood in Norse. Originally however this &quot;grím&quot; appears to have referred to face paint, as worn in battle, then the visor or mask of more elaborate helmets (look up the Sutton Hoo helmet for an example). Note that this &quot;mask/disguise/hood&quot; &quot;grím&quot; has a long vowel (so it rhymes with &quot;cream&quot;), while the unrelated one meaning &quot;severe&quot; has a short vowel. It is this long-vowel &quot;grím&quot; that appears as a name element in wider use (we know this as it appears consistently as Grim- when used a first element, where a short vowel element would [usually] be extended to Grima-), and as such belongs to the wider class of name elements referring to armour and is analogous to &quot;helm&quot;. In English the &quot;visor&quot; sense with long vowel fell out of use with the Norman invasion and their new French terms for armour." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20658" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="1469" RevisionGUID="a3f15926-d8a9-4c8c-9c59-ce33f43a587e" CreationDate="2020-02-26T09:41:01.290" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="20660" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6218" RevisionGUID="054311eb-afe8-44c8-b479-7b58a3330375" CreationDate="2020-02-27T11:54:26.557" UserId="5511" Text="This name doesn't seem Celtic. It could be derived from vulgar Latin based on:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pecus (*guard*) suos (acc. plural *oneself*) succentīvus (*[those]around*)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;or &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pecus (*guard*) suos (acc. plural *oneself*) su (*over, on, regarding*) cibo (*food*)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pecus can also derive from the Indo-European root for &quot;livestock&quot; but that doesn't seem to make much sense here.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20662" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6220" RevisionGUID="b2bed63f-fc37-4bec-a34c-f520c3d8fe68" CreationDate="2020-02-28T14:02:29.713" UserId="6723" Text="I feel like there's an archetypal myth when a person does something really good to humanity, but contrary to common sense that says that he should be thanked and praised, he's attacked by those whom he helped instead? There's a lot of situations like that, when people simply don't want something really good, because well they are people. Like nietszhe and his zoroaster, who came down to people and started talking to them but instead they were saying he's a fool. I hope this is not off-topic." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20663" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6220" RevisionGUID="b2bed63f-fc37-4bec-a34c-f520c3d8fe68" CreationDate="2020-02-28T14:02:29.713" UserId="6723" Text="When a person brings much good to people, but they reject it" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20664" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6220" RevisionGUID="b2bed63f-fc37-4bec-a34c-f520c3d8fe68" CreationDate="2020-02-28T14:02:29.713" UserId="6723" Text="|history|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20666" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6221" RevisionGUID="08ec5843-0b5b-486f-9912-a666d1ed0540" CreationDate="2020-02-29T05:41:32.243" UserId="6725" Text="The story of Jesus Christ. Came to save the world, but the same people killed him" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20667" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6220" RevisionGUID="5d83db0a-0080-4bed-8bbf-686cee692845" CreationDate="2020-02-29T12:42:16.270" UserId="6723" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="I feel like there's an archetypal myth when a person does something really good to humanity, but contrary to common sense that says that he should be thanked and praised, he's attacked by those whom he helped instead? There's a lot of situations like that, when people simply don't want something really good, because well they are people. Like Nietszhe and his Zarathustra, who came down to people and started talking to them but instead they were saying he's a fool. I hope this is not off-topic." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20668" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6220" RevisionGUID="5abaccad-eaad-4da2-afa6-b0ef972fd9c2" CreationDate="2020-03-01T03:24:54.580" UserId="1241" Comment="deleted 29 characters in body; edited title; edited tags" Text="I feel like there's an archetypal myth when a person does something really good to humanity, but contrary to common sense that says that he should be thanked and praised, he's attacked by those whom he helped instead? There's a lot of situations like that, when people simply don't want something really good, because well they are people. Like Nietszhe and his Zarathustra, who came down to people and started talking to them but instead they were saying he's a fool. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20669" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="6220" RevisionGUID="5abaccad-eaad-4da2-afa6-b0ef972fd9c2" CreationDate="2020-03-01T03:24:54.580" UserId="1241" Comment="deleted 29 characters in body; edited title; edited tags" Text="When a person brings much good to people, but they reject it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20670" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="6220" RevisionGUID="5abaccad-eaad-4da2-afa6-b0ef972fd9c2" CreationDate="2020-03-01T03:24:54.580" UserId="1241" Comment="deleted 29 characters in body; edited title; edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|history|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20672" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6222" RevisionGUID="c96662c6-b0df-4335-bd30-8e8022c24891" CreationDate="2020-03-01T22:53:35.993" UserId="6728" Text="When we were small children, our grandma would tell my sister and I stories at bedtime. She loved the Greek myths and Aesop's fables, but I have no idea where this particular story comes from.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's the story of a hunter in the woods. For some reason he knows that he is meant to wait a specified amount of time for his prey. I do not recall if this was by prophecy or by some divine message.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In any case, he lays in wait for a day or so, and a small animal -- a rabbit I think -- finally emerges into the clearing he has been watching. He is hungry by this point, but knows that he is meant to wait, so he lets the rabbit go undisturbed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He waits for a second day, and a larger animal appears -- a deer I think -- and although he begins to feel starvation creeping in, he again lets the animal go.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The third day comes, and at last a large animal -- a bull I think -- arrives in the clearing, and the hunter strikes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not sure how things go from here, but that's the general progression of the story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My grandmother and sister are both now passed, but I think about this story frequently. I haven't found anyone else over the years to whom it sounds familiar. If anyone has heard it or something similar -- time may have warped the details to be sure -- I would be very interested to hear." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20673" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6222" RevisionGUID="c96662c6-b0df-4335-bd30-8e8022c24891" CreationDate="2020-03-01T22:53:35.993" UserId="6728" Text="Trying to find a hunter myth I was told as a child" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20674" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6222" RevisionGUID="c96662c6-b0df-4335-bd30-8e8022c24891" CreationDate="2020-03-01T22:53:35.993" UserId="6728" Text="|animals|source-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20675" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="6222" RevisionGUID="cf37023a-eb68-4dea-ab62-cdb237c0de29" CreationDate="2020-03-02T02:01:57.427" UserId="6728" Comment="edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|source-request|animals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20676" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6223" RevisionGUID="61ba3f2c-3e7b-48e3-8e8b-233235b2858a" CreationDate="2020-03-02T14:43:26.173" UserId="5715" Text="I keep coming across the idea in blog posts and books that fairies are required to tell the truth, or speak very literally, and may use tricky language to get around it. This is a major theme in Holly Black's faerie books, for instance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where does this idea come from? I've asked around, but although people generally say that it's from ancient myth, so far I have not been able to find a specific myth or book of folklore that mentions such a thing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So far, all I've got is that Thomas the Rhymer's fairy queen bestowed him with a &quot;tongue that can never lie,&quot; and the Welsh Tale of Elidurus, in which a fairylike race &quot;had no religious worship, being only, as it seems, strict lovers and reverers of truth.&quot; There are also stories of fairy trickery. But these seem a long way from fairies being physically unable to tell a lie. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any surviving older source that records fairies or other beings as unable to lie, or even just keeping to a strict code of honesty?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20677" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6223" RevisionGUID="61ba3f2c-3e7b-48e3-8e8b-233235b2858a" CreationDate="2020-03-02T14:43:26.173" UserId="5715" Text="Where did the idea come from that fairies must tell the truth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20678" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6223" RevisionGUID="61ba3f2c-3e7b-48e3-8e8b-233235b2858a" CreationDate="2020-03-02T14:43:26.173" UserId="5715" Text="|celtic|fairies|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20680" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6224" RevisionGUID="84b2ba05-33cb-4849-9997-61f549cd848b" CreationDate="2020-03-03T15:04:04.033" UserId="6731" Text="Years ago I heard that the Phrygians had, in their creation myth, that they were the firstborn people of creation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This came up in the context of biblical studies where the apostle Paul - in his letter to Colossae, which is in Phrygian territory - uses the metaphor of &quot;firstborn of all creation&quot; about Jesus. The speaker noted that Paul is probably using that metaphor in that letter because of the cultural context. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I was recently researching Phrygian creation myths but could not find anything that detailed. Does anyone have any ideas where I might look to find this? Thanks" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20681" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6224" RevisionGUID="84b2ba05-33cb-4849-9997-61f549cd848b" CreationDate="2020-03-03T15:04:04.033" UserId="6731" Text="Phrygian creation myth" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20682" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6224" RevisionGUID="84b2ba05-33cb-4849-9997-61f549cd848b" CreationDate="2020-03-03T15:04:04.033" UserId="6731" Text="|creation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20683" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6225" RevisionGUID="63b90a5c-fe72-4969-ae7b-8cc254193db2" CreationDate="2020-03-05T12:01:08.213" UserId="6669" Text="Reference : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaya-Vijaya&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Hindu mythology, Jaya and Vijaya are the two gatekeepers of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; abode of Vishnu(Narayana OR Phra Narai), known as **Vaikuntha(place of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eternal bliss which is not included in three realm)**. Due to a curse,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **they were forced to undergo multiple births as mortals who would be subsequently killed by various avatars of Vishnu(Because they were his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gatekeepers he decided to kill them by taking birth with them)**. They&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were incarnated as ***Hiranyaksha*** and ***Hiranyakashipu*** in Sat&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Yug, ***Ravana*** and ***Kumbhakarna*** in Treta Yug, and finally&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ***Shishupala*** and ***Dantavakra*** in Dvapara Yug.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These births include ***RAVANA*** , so Narayana has to kill him as a Mortal." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20685" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6226" RevisionGUID="70e97f82-09f1-4a01-9efe-424d4201719e" CreationDate="2020-03-05T23:31:51.373" UserId="5787" Text="Great question.  There's nuance here between earlier traditions and more recent portrayals:  Generally speaking, older stories feature faeries who *will not* lie rather than explicitly indicating they *cannot* lie.  The development of faeries being literally unable to lie is a more modern take.&#xA;&#xA;The distinction here is an important one: if you're fundamentally unable to lie, then you never have to *choose* whether to be truthful. You might wish you could lie about something and regret not being able to.&#xA;&#xA;Why is this important?  Folk-tales overall tend to portray the world as a place where there is a proper, natural order to things, where some things are simply sacred.  So now consider how faerie mythology commonly features the notion of faeries being tricksters or manipulative.  The way you overcome some faerie mischief is by outsmarting the faerie or discovering an important secret about them -- beating them at their own game. If faeries didn't abide by their codes, there would be no order and you would never &quot;win.&quot;  In a sense, this gives even a character like Rumpelstiltskin qualities worth emulating.&#xA;&#xA;If this seems like a moot distinction, keep in mind why we tell folk-tales. These are stories we pass down partly to explain either how things &quot;are&quot; or how we feel the world ideally &quot;should be.&quot; So, in your example about the Welsh boy, the faeries &quot;don't make oaths,&quot; not because it's impossible for them to lie and thus pointless to do so, but because they *abhor* lying, so it's completely unnecessary.  By extension, this reflects the notion that, although human beings are perfectly capable of telling lies, a person should likewise find breaking their word &quot;unnatural,&quot; so to speak." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20686" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6227" RevisionGUID="6c89035b-be73-4323-9493-18c974da59c1" CreationDate="2020-03-06T07:24:41.380" UserId="6739" Text="Cecaelia is a modern term for a mermaid with an octopus lower body, instead of a fish. I have read that such legends come from ancient Native American and Japanese culture. Does anyone know their original names for these creatures?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20687" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6227" RevisionGUID="6c89035b-be73-4323-9493-18c974da59c1" CreationDate="2020-03-06T07:24:41.380" UserId="6739" Text="Is there an older name for Cecaelia?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20688" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6227" RevisionGUID="6c89035b-be73-4323-9493-18c974da59c1" CreationDate="2020-03-06T07:24:41.380" UserId="6739" Text="|japanese|native-american|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20689" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2904" RevisionGUID="5194e977-571f-4f5f-bef7-cb63f993dffc" CreationDate="2020-03-06T23:02:20.283" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="20692" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6229" RevisionGUID="0bd70480-da6f-4ff0-b4a7-3650522b9eed" CreationDate="2020-03-07T08:45:01.707" UserId="5511" Text="[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Japanse, these are called 人魚 (lit. human + fish) [Ningyo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ningyo)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Several Native American tribes][2] have words and stories regarding mermaids:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Halfway People (Mi'kmaq)&#xD;&#xA; - Lumpeguin (Maliseet)&#xD;&#xA; - Ne Hwas (Passamaquoddy)&#xD;&#xA; - Nibiinaabe (Ojibway)&#xD;&#xA; - Water-Babies (Western tribes)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/VMx7c.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.native-languages.org/mermaids.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20696" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6226" RevisionGUID="237b76ff-086a-40d8-92c2-d7dcb48cf4d4" CreationDate="2020-03-07T23:37:58.097" UserId="5787" Comment="added 2763 characters in body" Text="Great question.  There's nuance here between earlier traditions&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; and more recent portrayals:  Generally speaking, older stories feature faeries who *will not* lie rather than explicitly indicating they *cannot* lie.  The development of faeries being literally unable to lie is a more modern take&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xA;The distinction here is an important one: if you're fundamentally unable to lie, then you never have to *choose* whether to be truthful. You might wish you could lie about something and regret not being able to.&#xA;&#xA;Why is this important?  Folk-tales overall tend to portray the world as a place where there is a proper, natural order to things, where some things are simply sacred.  More to your question, consider how faerie mythology commonly features the notion of faeries being tricksters or manipulative.  The way you overcome some faerie mischief is by outsmarting the faerie or discovering an important secret about them -- beating them at their own game. If faeries didn't abide by their codes, there would be no order and you would never &quot;win.&quot;  In a sense, this gives even a character like Rumpelstiltskin qualities worth emulating.&#xA;&#xA;Now, when I say “code,” I don’t necessarily mean “code of honor:” while faeries are often helpful and friendly, then can just as soon seem very much not honorable at all to use humans.  It’s more about adherence to a set of personal or societal standards, though what exactly such “standards” might be for a faerie varies depending on the tale.  Faeries play by their own rules, but they do play by those rules, by and large&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt;.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;Now, for some more concrete examples, I will refer you to two sources.  Both of these collections were compiled over 100 years ago when much of this knowledge remained much more fresh than it is today. (Be warned, however, that these books are long, wordy, and in the second instance, intentionally redundant for the sake of thoroughness.)&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;1. There is a version of Thomas Keightley's &quot;[The Fairy Mythology][1]&quot; on Project Gutenberg, published 1892. (It also contains a version of the Elidurus tale with similar wording to the one you quoted.)&#xA;&#xA;2. Google Play Books has multiple versions of John Rhys' &quot;Celtic Folklore: Welsh and Manx,&quot; first published in 1901 in two volumes.&#xA;&#xA;If you want to do a real deep-dive and you have a lot of free time, I would start with Rhys.  He basically piled together everything he could find, giving multiple iterations of the same tales/thems (and often in another person's words directly) to highlight similarities and differences -- which can get a bit stale.  Keightley, on the other hand, might read more easily.&#xA;&#xA;--------&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; The British Isles, France, and the Iberian Peninsula are the regions I'm mostly knowledgeable of, and this was the position I was answering from. If you want to branch out into other areas than British or otherwise &quot;Celtic&quot; faeries, I can research some Eastern European lore for you; there are certainly some similarities between Eastern European and Western European folk-tales.  Likewise, Scandinavian folklore also overlaps with Western Europe thematically in many cases due to cultural interactions and common sources, while also having their own brands of mythological creatures.)&#xA;&#xA; &#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; The notion of the &quot;noble faerie&quot; itself grew largely throughout the Early Modern Period and beyond; while not necessarily absent, it was not something highlighted substantially during the earlier portions Middle Ages. Additionally, contemporary ideas about faeries are heavily influenced by Tolkien's impactful portrayal of his noble (faerie-inspired) elven race.&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; You will also find this motif extended to other supernatural beings within the same regional folk traditions, notably Satan and witches.&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; If all of this seems like a moot distinction, keep in mind why we tell folk-tales. These are stories we pass down partly to explain either how things &quot;are&quot; or how we feel the world ideally &quot;should be.&quot; So, in your example about the Welsh boy, the faeries &quot;don't make oaths,&quot; not because it's impossible for them to lie and thus pointless to do so, but because they *abhor* lying, so it's completely unnecessary.  By extension, this reflects the notion that, although human beings are perfectly capable of telling lies, a person should likewise find breaking their word &quot;unnatural,&quot; so to speak.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/41006/41006-h/41006-h.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20697" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6226" RevisionGUID="008377f8-e70d-4c35-817c-a0cd3c4e9075" CreationDate="2020-03-07T23:49:47.493" UserId="5787" Comment="added 179 characters in body" Text="Great question.  There's nuance here between earlier traditions&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; and more recent portrayals:  Generally speaking, older stories feature faeries who *will not* lie rather than explicitly indicating they *cannot* lie.  The development of faeries being literally unable to lie is a more modern take&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xA;The distinction here is an important one: if you're fundamentally unable to lie, then you never have to *choose* whether to be truthful. You might wish you could lie about something and regret not being able to.&#xA;&#xA;Why is this important?  Folk-tales overall tend to portray the world as a place where there is a proper, natural order to things, where some things are simply sacred.  More to your question, consider how faerie mythology commonly features the notion of faeries being tricksters or manipulative.  The way you overcome some faerie mischief is by outsmarting the faerie or discovering an important secret about them -- beating them at their own game. If faeries didn't abide by their codes, there would be no order and you would never &quot;win.&quot;  In a sense, this gives even a character like Rumpelstiltskin qualities worth emulating.&#xA;&#xA;Now, when I say “code,” I don’t necessarily mean “code of honor&quot;: while faeries are often helpful and friendly, then can just as soon seem very much not honorable at all to use humans.  It’s more about adherence to a set of personal or societal standards, though what exactly such “standards” might be for a faerie varies depending on the tale. The point is that faeries play by their own rules, but they do play by those rules, by and large&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt;.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;For some more examples, I will refer you to two sources.  Both of these collections were compiled over 100 years ago when much of this knowledge remained much more fresh than it is today. (Be warned, however, that these books are long, wordy, and in the second instance, intentionally redundant for the sake of thoroughness.)  You should find that overwhelmingly faerie mythology is more about mischief and trickery without ever really saying they are unable to lie:&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;1. There is a version of Thomas Keightley's &quot;[The Fairy Mythology][1]&quot; on Project Gutenberg, published 1892. (It also contains a version of the Elidurus tale with similar wording to the one you quoted.)&#xA;&#xA;2. Google Play Books has multiple versions (some free) of John Rhys' &quot;Celtic Folklore: Welsh and Manx,&quot; first published in 1901 in two volumes.&#xA;&#xA;If you want to do a real deep-dive and you have a lot of free time, I would start with Rhys.  He basically piled together everything he could find, giving multiple iterations of the same tales/themes (and often in the words of a source directly) to highlight similarities and differences -- which, while robust, can get a bit stale.  Keightley, on the other hand, might read more easily.&#xA;&#xA;--------&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; The British Isles, France, and the Iberian Peninsula are the regions I'm mostly knowledgeable of, and this was the position I was answering from. If you want to branch out into other areas than English, British or otherwise &quot;Celtic&quot; faeries, I can research some Eastern European lore for you; there are certainly some similarities between Eastern European and Western European folk-tales.  Likewise, Scandinavian folklore also overlaps with Western Europe thematically in many cases due to cultural interactions and common sources, while also having their own brands of mythological creatures.)&#xA;&#xA; &#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; The notion of the &quot;noble faerie&quot; itself grew largely throughout the Early Modern Period and beyond; while not necessarily absent, it was not something highlighted substantially during the earlier portions Middle Ages. Additionally, contemporary ideas about faeries are heavily influenced by Tolkien's impactful portrayal of his noble (faerie-inspired) elven race.&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; You will also find this motif extended to other supernatural beings within the same regional folk traditions, notably Satan and witches.&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; If all of this seems like a moot distinction, keep in mind why we tell folk-tales. These are stories we pass down partly to explain either how things &quot;are&quot; or how we feel the world ideally &quot;should be.&quot; So, in your example about the Welsh boy, the faeries &quot;don't make oaths,&quot; not because it's impossible for them to lie and thus pointless to do so, but because they *abhor* lying, so it's completely unnecessary.  By extension, this reflects the notion that, although human beings are perfectly capable of telling lies, a person should likewise find breaking their word &quot;unnatural,&quot; so to speak.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/41006/41006-h/41006-h.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20698" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6231" RevisionGUID="19dee862-b1ad-4749-af35-effe188fa41e" CreationDate="2020-03-08T00:53:52.080" UserId="5715" Text="I think I’ve come across the same references to the legends being from Native American and Japanese culture. As far as Japanese origins, all I’ve come across are a few online posts referencing to the artist Katsushika Hokusai (1760-1849), who painted some sexually explicit images of women with octopi, such as the 1814 “Dream of the Fisherman’s Wife.”’&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The yokai known as the Jorōgumo is a spider-woman, which is kind of similar at least in the sense of being a hybrid of a human and an eight-limbed creature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as Native American myths, there is a Nuu-chah-nulth (Nootka) tale from the Pacific Northwest titled &quot;Octopus and Raven.&quot; In this tale, both are depicted as humans. Octopus appears as a human woman with her hair arranged in eight long braids, which become powerful arms when she is angered.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - *[Keepers of the Animals: Native American Stories and Wildlife Activities for Children][1]*, Michael J. Caduto and Joseph Bruchac, pp. 73-74.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have not been able to find out for sure what the characters' names are in the original language, but according to [firstvoices.com][2], the Nuu-chah-nulth word for Octopus is tiiłuup. Raven is quʔušin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There also is a Kwakiutl octopus deity named Xa’niyus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other than that, however, the site [native-languages.org][3] (which I have found very useful) says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Octopi do not play a major role in most Native American mythology--&#xD;&#xA;&gt; most coastal tribes consider the octopus to be just another type of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shellfish. In some Northwest Coast tribes of British Columbia and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Alaska, the octopus plays a more prominent role as a medicine animal,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; considered to have formidable powers over the weather or over sickness&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and health.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=P9vF9jzTV4EC&amp;newbks=1&amp;newbks_redir=0&amp;dq=nootka%20octopus&amp;source=gbs_navlinks_s&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.firstvoices.com/explore/FV/sections/Data/Nuu-chah-nulth/Nuu%C4%8Daan%CC%93u%C9%AB/Nuu-chah-nulth%20(Barkley)/search/octopus/10/1&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.native-languages.org/legends-octopus.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20700" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6233" RevisionGUID="554b472b-8529-474c-a9d9-b28e4e60429c" CreationDate="2020-03-08T09:21:51.683" UserId="6747" Text="Pentacost is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit into the disciples of Christ following the ascension of Jesus Christ into Heaven. It's also the Jewish festival of Shavuoth per the Oxford dictionary. Here's an excellent article tying its roots to Jewish harvest festivals at which time many people became Christians following the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. https://www.christianity.com/jesus/early-church-history/pentecost/where-did-pentecost-come-from.html It seems to be tied to Jewish holidays and traditions instead of anything pagan. Here's another article about the origin being the Jewish feast day for the firstfruits of the wheat harvest: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Pentecost-Christianity . Prior to Jesus Christ's ascension, baptism was by water as a symbol of cleanliness. After the resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ, baptism into Christianity was with the fire of the Holy Spirit. Here are two explanations of this Baptism by the Holy Spirit: https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/what-is-the-baptism-of-the-holy-spirit and https://www.radiant.church/foundations-of-faith-blog/part-10?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIy7-JpMaK6AIVURh9Ch10NAkLEAAYASAAEgItufD_BwE ." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20701" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6226" RevisionGUID="f6f47797-7a3d-4da1-93fc-0a3d943b147b" CreationDate="2020-03-08T12:00:54.437" UserId="5787" Comment="added 41 characters in body" Text="Great question.  There's nuance here between earlier traditions&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; and more recent portrayals:  Generally speaking, older stories feature faeries who *will not* lie rather than explicitly indicating they *cannot* lie.  The development of faeries being literally unable to lie is a more modern take&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xA;The distinction here is an important one: if you're fundamentally unable to lie, then you never have to *choose* whether to be truthful. You might wish you could lie about something and regret not being able to.&#xA;&#xA;Why is this important?  Folk-tales overall tend to portray the world as a place where there is a proper, natural order to things, where some things are simply sacred.  More to your question, consider how faerie mythology commonly features the notion of faeries being tricksters or manipulative.  The way you overcome some faerie mischief is by outsmarting the faerie or discovering an important secret about them -- beating them at their own game&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;. If faeries didn't abide by their codes, there would be no order and you would never &quot;win.&quot;  In a sense, this gives even a character like Rumpelstiltskin qualities worth emulating.&#xA;&#xA;Now, when I say “code,” I don’t necessarily mean “code of honor&quot;: while faeries are often helpful and friendly, then can just as soon be very much the opposite of honorable and helpful by our typical human ideals.  It’s more about adherence to a set of personal or societal standards, though what exactly such “standards” might be for a faerie varies depending on the tale. The point is that faeries play by their own rules, but they do play by those rules, by and large&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt;.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;For some more examples, I will refer you to two sources.  Both of these collections were compiled over 100 years ago when much of this knowledge remained much more fresh than it is today. (Be warned, however, that these books are long, wordy, and in the second instance, intentionally redundant for the sake of thoroughness.)  You should find that overwhelmingly faerie mythology is more about mischief and trickery without ever really saying they are unable to lie:&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;1. There is a version of Thomas Keightley's &quot;[The Fairy Mythology][1]&quot; on Project Gutenberg, published 1892. (It also contains a version of the Elidurus tale with similar wording to the one you quoted.)&#xA;&#xA;2. Google Play Books has multiple versions (some free) of John Rhys' &quot;Celtic Folklore: Welsh and Manx,&quot; first published in 1901 in two volumes.&#xA;&#xA;If you want to do a real deep-dive and you have a lot of free time, I would start with Rhys.  He basically piled together everything he could find, giving multiple iterations of the same tales/themes (and often in the words of a source directly) to highlight similarities and differences -- which, while robust, can get a bit stale.  Keightley, on the other hand, might read more easily.&#xA;&#xA;--------&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; The British Isles, France, and the Iberian Peninsula are the regions I'm mostly knowledgeable of, and this was the position I was answering from. If you want to branch out into other areas than English, British or otherwise &quot;Celtic&quot; faeries, I can research some Eastern European lore for you; there are certainly some similarities between Eastern European and Western European folk-tales.  Likewise, Scandinavian folklore also overlaps with Western Europe thematically in many cases due to cultural interactions and common sources, while also having their own brands of mythological creatures.)&#xA;&#xA; &#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; The notion of the &quot;noble faerie&quot; itself grew largely throughout the Early Modern Period and beyond; while not necessarily absent, it was not something highlighted substantially during the earlier portions Middle Ages. Additionally, contemporary ideas about faeries are heavily influenced by Tolkien's impactful portrayal of his noble (faerie-inspired) elven race.&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; You will also find this motif extended to other supernatural beings within the same regional folk traditions, notably Satan and witches.&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; If all of this seems like a moot distinction, keep in mind why we tell folk-tales. These are stories we pass down partly to explain either how things &quot;are&quot; or how we feel the world ideally &quot;should be.&quot; So, in your example about the Welsh boy, the faeries &quot;don't make oaths,&quot; not because it's impossible for them to lie and thus pointless to do so, but because they *abhor* lying, so it's completely unnecessary.  By extension, this reflects the notion that, although human beings are perfectly capable of telling lies, a person should likewise find breaking their word &quot;unnatural,&quot; so to speak.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/41006/41006-h/41006-h.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20702" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6226" RevisionGUID="e20dd128-a188-4a75-9745-c09940275b3b" CreationDate="2020-03-08T12:14:06.530" UserId="5787" Comment="added 1113 characters in body" Text="Great question.  There's nuance here between earlier traditions&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; and more recent portrayals:  Generally speaking, older stories feature faeries who *will not* lie rather than explicitly indicating they *cannot* lie.  The development of faeries being literally unable to lie is a more modern take&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xA;The distinction here is an important one: if you're fundamentally unable to lie, then you never have to *choose* whether to be truthful. You might wish you could lie about something and regret not being able to.&#xA;&#xA;Why is this important?  Folk-tales overall tend to portray the world as a place where there is a proper, natural order to things, where some things are simply sacred.  More to your question, consider how faerie mythology commonly features the notion of faeries being tricksters or manipulative.  The way you overcome some faerie mischief is by outsmarting the faerie or discovering an important secret about them -- beating them at their own game&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;. If faeries didn't abide by their codes, there would be no order and you would never &quot;win.&quot;  In a sense, this gives even a character like Rumpelstiltskin qualities worth emulating.&#xA;&#xA;Now, when I say “code,” I don’t necessarily mean “code of honor&quot;: while faeries are often helpful and friendly, then can just as soon be very much the opposite of honorable and helpful by our typical human ideals.  It’s more about adherence to a set of personal or societal standards, though what exactly such “standards” might be for a faerie varies depending on the tale. The point is that faeries play by their own rules, but they do play by those rules, by and large&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;.&#xA;&#xA;To sum-up, the concept of lying in itself is not really an overt concern in most western folk-tales where supernatural beings are up to perfidious deeds&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt;. Any verbal trickery more often entails misleading or ambiguous wording rather than outright lies.  Returning to the tale you mentioned, I find it interesting that the version recorded points out the faeries' love of truth, as this seems to have no real bearing on the story.  Perhaps we're missing a piece now, or two versions were conflated wherein the faeries served as an example to the boy: in a related form of this tale, it isn't theft that crosses the faeries, but the fact the boy had agreed not to reveal their existence whatsoever and subsequently breaks his word.  Other versions combine this with another common motif: he's allowed to take gold back with him on the promise of not revealing the source of the gold, yet he ultimately does. (In the boy's defense, it's usually because his suspicious father beats it out of him. Perhaps one take-away should be that he could have lied to his father, but didn’t?)&#xA;&#xA;For further reading, I will refer you to two sources.  Both of these collections were compiled over 100 years ago when much of this knowledge remained much more fresh than it is today. (Be warned, however, that these books are long, wordy, and in the second instance, intentionally redundant for the sake of thoroughness.)  You should find that overwhelmingly faerie mythology is more about mischief and trickery without ever really saying they are unable to lie:&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;1. There is a version of Thomas Keightley's &quot;[The Fairy Mythology][1]&quot; on Project Gutenberg, published 1892. (It also contains a version of the Elidurus tale with similar wording to the one you quoted.)&#xA;&#xA;2. Google Play Books has multiple versions (some free) of John Rhys' &quot;Celtic Folklore: Welsh and Manx,&quot; first published in 1901 in two volumes.&#xA;&#xA;If you want to do a real deep-dive and you have a lot of free time, I would start with Rhys.  He basically piled together everything he could find, giving multiple iterations of the same tales/themes (and often in the words of a source directly) to highlight similarities and differences -- which, while robust, can get a bit stale.  Keightley, on the other hand, might read more easily.&#xA;&#xA;--------&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; The British Isles, France, and the Iberian Peninsula are the regions I'm mostly knowledgeable of, and this was the position I was answering from. If you want to branch out into other areas than English, British or otherwise &quot;Celtic&quot; faeries, I can research some Eastern European lore for you; there are certainly some similarities between Eastern European and Western European folk-tales.  Likewise, Scandinavian folklore also overlaps with Western Europe thematically in many cases due to cultural interactions and common sources, while also having their own brands of mythological creatures.)&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; The notion of the &quot;noble faerie&quot; (for lack of a better term) itself evolved largely throughout the Early Modern Period and beyond; while not necessarily absent, it was not something highlighted substantially during the earlier portions Middle Ages. Additionally, contemporary ideas about faeries are heavily influenced by Tolkien's impactful portrayal of his noble (faerie-inspired) elven race.&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; If all of this seems like a moot distinction, keep in mind why we tell folk-tales. These are stories we pass down partly to explain either how things &quot;are&quot; or how we feel the world ideally &quot;should be.&quot; So, in your example about the Welsh boy, the faeries &quot;don't make oaths,&quot; not because it's impossible for them to lie and thus pointless to do so, but because they *abhor* lying, so it's completely unnecessary.  By extension, this reflects the notion that, although human beings are perfectly capable of telling lies, a person should likewise find breaking their word &quot;unnatural,&quot; so to speak.&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; You will also find this motif extended to other supernatural beings within the same regional folk traditions, notably Satan and witches.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/41006/41006-h/41006-h.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20703" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6226" RevisionGUID="cf8434d0-b60a-44d5-aa19-bba3745895ae" CreationDate="2020-03-08T12:21:06.880" UserId="5787" Comment="deleted 151 characters in body; added 2 characters in body; deleted 12 characters in body; added 85 characters in body" Text="Great question.  There's nuance here between earlier traditions&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; and more recent portrayals:  Generally speaking, older stories feature faeries who *will not* lie rather than explicitly indicating they *cannot* lie.  The development of faeries being literally unable to lie is a more modern take&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xA;The distinction here is an important one: if you're fundamentally unable to lie, then you never have to *choose* whether to be truthful. You might wish you could lie about something and regret not being able to.&#xA;&#xA;Why is this important?  Folk-tales overall tend to portray the world as a place where there is a proper, natural order to things. We pass down folk-tales partly to explain either how things &quot;are&quot; or how we feel the world ideally &quot;should be.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;So, in your example about the Welsh boy, the faeries &quot;don't make oaths,&quot; not because it's impossible for them to lie and thus pointless to do so, but because they *abhor* lying, so it's completely unnecessary.  By extension, this reflects the notion that, although human beings are perfectly capable of telling lies, a person should likewise find breaking their word &quot;unnatural,&quot; so to speak.&#xA;&#xA;More to your question, consider how faerie mythology commonly features the notion of faeries being tricksters or manipulative.  The way you overcome some faerie mischief is by outsmarting the faerie or discovering an important secret about them -- beating them at their own game. If faeries didn't abide by their codes, there would be no order and you would never &quot;win.&quot;  In a sense, this gives even a character like Rumpelstiltskin qualities worth emulating.  (This is not to say that faeries are meant to serve as examples of human behavior.)&#xA;&#xA;Now, when I say “code,” I don’t necessarily mean “code of honor&quot;: while faeries are often helpful and friendly, then can just as soon be very much the opposite of honorable and helpful by our typical human ideals.  It’s more about adherence to a set of personal or societal standards, though what exactly such “standards” might be for a faerie varies depending on the tale. The point is that faeries play by their own rules, but they *do* stick to those rules, by and large.&#xA;&#xA;To sum-up, the concept of lying in itself is not really an overt concern in most western folk-tales where supernatural beings are up to perfidious deeds&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;. Any verbal trickery more often entails misleading or ambiguous wording rather than outright lies.  Returning to the tale you mentioned, I find it interesting that the version recorded points out the faeries' love of truth, as this seems to have no real bearing on the story.  Perhaps we're missing a piece now, or two versions were conflated wherein the faeries served as an example to the boy: in a related form of this tale, it isn't theft that crosses the faeries, but the fact the boy had agreed not to reveal their existence whatsoever and subsequently breaks his word.  Other versions combine this with another common motif: he's allowed to take gold back with him on the promise of not revealing the source of the gold, yet he ultimately does. (In the boy's defense, it's usually because his suspicious father beats it out of him. Perhaps one take-away should be that he could have lied to his father, but didn’t?)&#xA;&#xA;For further reading, I will refer you to two sources.  Both of these collections were compiled over 100 years ago when much of this knowledge remained much more fresh than it is today. (Be warned, however, that these books are long, wordy, and in the second instance, intentionally redundant for the sake of thoroughness.)  You should find that overwhelmingly faerie mythology is more about mischief and trickery without ever really saying they are unable to lie:&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;1. There is a version of Thomas Keightley's &quot;[The Fairy Mythology][1]&quot; on Project Gutenberg, published 1892. (It also contains a version of the Elidurus tale with similar wording to the one you quoted.)&#xA;&#xA;2. Google Play Books has multiple versions (some free) of John Rhys' &quot;Celtic Folklore: Welsh and Manx,&quot; first published in 1901 in two volumes.&#xA;&#xA;If you want to do a real deep-dive and you have a lot of free time, I would start with Rhys.  He basically piled together everything he could find, giving multiple iterations of the same tales/themes (and often in the words of a source directly) to highlight similarities and differences -- which, while robust, can get a bit stale.  Keightley, on the other hand, might read more easily.&#xA;&#xA;--------&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; The British Isles, France, and the Iberian Peninsula are the regions I'm mostly knowledgeable of, and this was the position I was answering from. If you want to branch out into other areas than English, British or otherwise &quot;Celtic&quot; faeries, I can research some Eastern European lore for you; there are certainly some similarities between Eastern European and Western European folk-tales.  Likewise, Scandinavian folklore also overlaps with Western Europe thematically in many cases due to cultural interactions and common sources, while also having their own brands of mythological creatures.)&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; The notion of the &quot;noble faerie&quot; (for lack of a better term) itself evolved largely throughout the Early Modern Period and beyond; while not necessarily absent, it was not something highlighted substantially during the earlier portions Middle Ages. Additionally, contemporary ideas about faeries are heavily influenced by Tolkien's impactful portrayal of his noble (faerie-inspired) elven race.&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; You will also find this motif extended to other supernatural beings within the same regional folk traditions, notably Satan and witches.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/41006/41006-h/41006-h.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20704" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6226" RevisionGUID="aa7ded52-3f15-44b9-8ba8-f304d9fe08a2" CreationDate="2020-03-08T12:28:08.893" UserId="5787" Comment="added 53 characters in body; added 12 characters in body; deleted 2 characters in body" Text="Great question.  There's nuance here between earlier traditions&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; and more recent portrayals:  Generally speaking, older stories feature faeries who *will not* lie rather than explicitly indicating they *cannot* lie.  The development of faeries being literally unable to lie is a more modern take&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xA;The distinction here is an important one: if you're fundamentally unable to lie, then you never have to *choose* whether to be truthful. You might wish you could lie about something and regret not being able to.&#xA;&#xA;(Why is this important?  Folk-tales overall tend to portray the world as a place where there is a proper, natural order to things. We pass down folk-tales partly to explain either how things &quot;are&quot; or how we feel the world ideally &quot;should be.&quot;)&#xA;&#xA;In your example about the Welsh boy, the faeries &quot;don't make oaths,&quot; not because it's impossible for them to lie and thus pointless to do so, but because they *abhor* lying, so it's completely unnecessary.  By extension, this reflects the notion that, although human beings are perfectly capable of telling lies, a person should likewise find breaking their word &quot;unnatural,&quot; so to speak.&#xA;&#xA;More to your question, consider how faerie mythology commonly features the notion of faeries being tricksters or manipulative.  Oftentimes, the way you overcome some faerie mischief is by outsmarting the faerie or discovering an important secret about them -- beating them at their own game. If faeries didn't abide by their codes, there would be no order and you would never &quot;win.&quot;  In a sense, this gives even a character like Rumpelstiltskin qualities worth emulating.  (This is not to say that faeries are meant to serve as examples of human behavior.)&#xA;&#xA;Now, when I say “code,” I don’t necessarily mean “code of honor&quot;: while faeries are often helpful and friendly, then can just as soon be very much the opposite of honorable and helpful by our typical human ideals.  It’s more about adherence to a set of personal or societal standards, though what exactly such “standards” might be for a faerie varies depending on the tale. The point is that faeries play by their own rules, but they *do* stick to those rules, by and large.&#xA;&#xA;To sum-up, the concept of lying in itself is not really an overt concern in most western folk-tales where supernatural beings are up to perfidious deeds&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;. Any verbal trickery more often entails misleading or ambiguous wording rather than outright lies.  Returning to the tale you mentioned, I find it interesting that the version recorded points out the faeries' love of truth, as this seems to have no real bearing on the story.  Perhaps we're missing a piece now, or two versions were conflated wherein the faeries served as an example to the boy: in a related form of this tale, it isn't theft that crosses the faeries, but the fact the boy had agreed not to reveal their existence whatsoever and subsequently breaks his word.  Other versions combine this with another common motif: he's allowed to take gold back with him on the promise of not revealing the source of the gold, yet he ultimately does. (In the boy's defense, it's usually because his suspicious father beats it out of him. Perhaps one take-away should be that he could have lied to his father, but didn’t?)&#xA;&#xA;For further reading, I will refer you to two sources.  Both of these collections were compiled over 100 years ago when much of this knowledge remained much more fresh than it is today. (Be warned, however, that these books are long, wordy, and in the second instance, intentionally redundant for the sake of thoroughness.)  You should find that overwhelmingly faerie mythology is more about mischief and trickery without ever really saying they are unable to lie:&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;1. There is a version of Thomas Keightley's &quot;[The Fairy Mythology][1]&quot; on Project Gutenberg, published 1892. (It also contains a version of the Elidurus tale with similar wording to the one you quoted.)&#xA;&#xA;2. Google Play Books has multiple versions (some free) of John Rhys' &quot;Celtic Folklore: Welsh and Manx,&quot; first published in 1901 in two volumes.&#xA;&#xA;If you want to do a real deep-dive and you have a lot of free time, I would start with Rhys.  He basically piled together everything he could find, giving multiple iterations of the same tales/themes (and often in the words of a source directly) to highlight similarities and differences -- which, while robust, can get a bit stale.  Keightley, on the other hand, might read more easily.&#xA;&#xA;--------&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; The British Isles, France, and the Iberian Peninsula are the regions I'm mostly knowledgeable of, and this is the position I am answering from. If you want to branch out into other areas than English, British or otherwise &quot;Celtic&quot; faeries, I can research some Eastern European lore for you, or perhaps others will chime in.  In brief, I will say there are certainly some similarities between Eastern European and Western European folk-tales.  Likewise, Scandinavian folklore also overlaps with Western Europe thematically in many cases due to cultural interactions and common sources, while also having their own brands of mythological creatures.)&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; The notion of the &quot;noble faerie&quot; (for lack of a better term) itself evolved largely throughout the Early Modern Period and beyond; while not necessarily absent, it was not something highlighted substantially during the earlier portions Middle Ages. Additionally, contemporary ideas about faeries are heavily influenced by Tolkien's impactful portrayal of his noble (faerie-inspired) elven race.&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; You will also find this motif extended to other supernatural beings within the same regional folk traditions, notably Satan and witches.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/41006/41006-h/41006-h.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20705" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6226" RevisionGUID="e0fc3455-2c05-4826-97bb-d0289636e1f5" CreationDate="2020-03-08T12:35:18.183" UserId="5787" Comment="added 59 characters in body" Text="Great question.  There's nuance here between earlier traditions&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; and more recent portrayals:  Generally speaking, older stories feature faeries who *will not* lie rather than explicitly indicating they *cannot* lie.  The development of faeries being literally unable to lie is a more modern take&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xA;The distinction here is an important one: if you're fundamentally unable to lie, then you never have to *choose* whether to be truthful. You might wish you could lie about something and regret not being able to.&#xA;&#xA;(Why is this important?  Folk-tales overall tend to portray the world as a place where there is a proper, natural order to things. We pass down folk-tales partly to explain either how things &quot;are&quot; or how we feel the world ideally &quot;should be.&quot;)&#xA;&#xA;In your example about the Welsh boy, the faeries &quot;don't make oaths,&quot; not because it's impossible for them to lie and thus pointless to do so, but because they *abhor* lying, so it's completely unnecessary.  By extension, this reflects the notion that, although human beings are perfectly capable of telling lies, a person should likewise find breaking their word &quot;unnatural,&quot; so to speak.  (This is not to imply that faeries themselves are normally meant to serve as models of human behavior.)&#xA;&#xA;More to your question, consider how faerie mythology commonly features the notion of faeries being tricksters or manipulative.  Oftentimes, the way you overcome some faerie mischief is by outsmarting the faerie or discovering an important secret about them -- beating them at their own game. If faeries didn't abide by their codes, there would be no order and you would never &quot;win.&quot;  (The tale with Rumpelstiltskin would be less compelling if at the end he yelled &quot;Psych!&quot; and made off with the goods, anyway.)&#xA;&#xA;Now, when I say “code,” I don’t necessarily mean “code of honor&quot;: while faeries are often helpful and friendly, then can just as soon be very much the opposite of honorable and helpful by our typical human ideals.  It’s more about adherence to a set of personal or societal standards, though what exactly such “standards” might be for a faerie varies depending on the tale. The point is that faeries play by their own rules, but they *do* stick to those rules, by and large.&#xA;&#xA;To sum-up, the concept of lying in itself is not really an overt concern in most western folk-tales where supernatural beings are up to perfidious deeds&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;. Any verbal trickery more often entails misleading or ambiguous wording rather than outright lies.  Returning to the tale you mentioned, I find it interesting that the version recorded points out the faeries' love of truth, as this seems to have no real bearing on the story.  Perhaps we're missing a piece now, or two versions were conflated wherein the faeries served as an example to the boy: in a related form of this tale, it isn't theft that crosses the faeries, but the fact the boy had agreed not to reveal their existence whatsoever and subsequently breaks his word.  Other versions combine this with another common motif: he's allowed to take gold back with him on the promise of not revealing the source of the gold, yet he ultimately does. (In the boy's defense, it's usually because his suspicious father beats it out of him. Perhaps one take-away should be that he could have lied to his father, but didn’t?)&#xA;&#xA;For further reading, I will refer you to two sources.  Both of these collections were compiled over 100 years ago when much of this knowledge remained much more fresh than it is today. (Be warned, however, that these books are long, wordy, and in the second instance, intentionally redundant for the sake of thoroughness.)  You should find that overwhelmingly faerie mythology is more about mischief and trickery without ever really saying they are unable to lie:&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;1. There is a version of Thomas Keightley's &quot;[The Fairy Mythology][1]&quot; on Project Gutenberg, published 1892. (It also contains a version of the Elidurus tale with similar wording to the one you quoted.)&#xA;&#xA;2. Google Play Books has multiple versions (some free) of John Rhys' &quot;Celtic Folklore: Welsh and Manx,&quot; first published in 1901 in two volumes.&#xA;&#xA;If you want to do a real deep-dive and you have a lot of free time, I would start with Rhys.  He basically piled together everything he could find, giving multiple iterations of the same tales/themes (and often in the words of a source directly) to highlight similarities and differences -- which, while robust, can get a bit stale.  Keightley, on the other hand, might read more easily.&#xA;&#xA;--------&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; The British Isles, France, and the Iberian Peninsula are the regions I'm mostly knowledgeable of, and this is the position I am answering from. If you want to branch out into other areas than English, British or otherwise &quot;Celtic&quot; faeries, I can research some Eastern European lore for you, or perhaps others will chime in.  In brief, I will say there are certainly some similarities between Eastern European and Western European folk-tales.  Likewise, Scandinavian folklore also overlaps with Western Europe thematically in many cases due to cultural interactions and common sources, while also having their own brands of mythological creatures.)&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; The notion of the &quot;noble faerie&quot; (for lack of a better term) itself evolved largely throughout the Early Modern Period and beyond; while not necessarily absent, it was not something highlighted substantially during the earlier portions Middle Ages. Additionally, contemporary ideas about faeries are heavily influenced by Tolkien's impactful portrayal of his noble (faerie-inspired) elven race.&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; You will also find this motif extended to other supernatural beings within the same regional folk traditions, notably Satan and witches.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/41006/41006-h/41006-h.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20706" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6226" RevisionGUID="beda3485-6982-44ec-b218-5e9dc2b01df4" CreationDate="2020-03-08T12:41:16.287" UserId="5787" Comment="added 260 characters in body" Text="Great question.  There's nuance here between earlier traditions&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; and more recent portrayals:  Generally speaking, older stories feature faeries who *will not* lie rather than explicitly indicating they *cannot* lie.  The development of faeries being literally unable to lie is a more modern take&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xA;The distinction here is an important one: if you're fundamentally unable to lie, then you never have to *choose* whether to be truthful. You might wish you could lie about something and regret not being able to.&#xA;&#xA;(Why is this important?  Folk-tales overall tend to portray the world as a place where there is a proper, natural order to things. We pass down folk-tales partly to explain either how things &quot;are&quot; or how we feel the world ideally &quot;should be.&quot;)&#xA;&#xA;In your example about the Welsh boy, the faeries &quot;don't make oaths,&quot; not because it's impossible for them to lie and thus pointless to do so, but because they *abhor* lying, so it's completely unnecessary.  By extension, this reflects the notion that, although human beings are perfectly capable of telling lies, a person should likewise find breaking their word &quot;unnatural,&quot; so to speak.  (This is not to imply that faeries themselves are normally meant to serve as models of human behavior.)&#xA;&#xA;More to your question, consider how faerie mythology commonly features the notion of faeries being tricksters or manipulative.  Oftentimes, the way you overcome some faerie mischief is by outsmarting the faerie or discovering an important secret about them -- beating them at their own game. If faeries didn't abide by their codes, there would be no order and you would never &quot;win.&quot;  (The tale with Rumpelstiltskin would be less compelling if at the end he yelled &quot;Psych!&quot; and made off with the goods, anyway.)&#xA;&#xA;Now, when I say “code,” I don’t necessarily mean “code of honor&quot;: while faeries are often helpful and friendly, then can just as soon be very much the opposite of honorable and helpful by our typical human ideals.  It’s more about adherence to a set of personal or societal standards, though what exactly such “standards” might be for a faerie varies depending on the tale. The point is that faeries play by their own rules, but they *do* stick to those rules, by and large.&#xA;&#xA;To sum-up, the concept of lying in itself is not really an overt concern in most western folk-tales where supernatural beings are up to perfidious deeds&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;. Any verbal trickery more often entails misleading or ambiguous wording rather than outright lies.  Returning to the tale you mentioned, I find it interesting that the version recorded points out the faeries' love of truth, as this seems to have no real bearing on the story.  Perhaps we're missing a piece now, or two versions were conflated wherein the faeries served as an example to the boy: in a related form of this tale, it isn't theft that crosses the faeries, but the fact the boy had agreed not to reveal their existence whatsoever and subsequently breaks his word.  Other versions combine this with another common motif: he's allowed to take gold back with him on the promise of not revealing the source of the gold, yet he ultimately does. (In the boy's defense, it's usually because his suspicious father beats it out of him. Perhaps one take-away should be that he could have lied to his father, but didn’t?)&#xA;&#xA;As for other forms of deceitful actions, there are, of course, changelings, which you bring up in comments. There are also tales regarding faeries in markets paying with fake money that later reverts to some worthless thing, or even simply stealing outright.&#xA;&#xA;For further reading, I will refer you to two sources.  Both of these collections were compiled over 100 years ago when much of this knowledge remained much more fresh than it is today. (Be warned, however, that these books are long, wordy, and in the second instance, intentionally redundant for the sake of thoroughness.)  You should find that overwhelmingly faerie mythology is more about mischief and trickery without ever really saying they are unable to lie:&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;1. There is a version of Thomas Keightley's &quot;[The Fairy Mythology][1]&quot; on Project Gutenberg, published 1892. (It also contains a version of the Elidurus tale with similar wording to the one you quoted.)&#xA;&#xA;2. Google Play Books has multiple versions (some free) of John Rhys' &quot;Celtic Folklore: Welsh and Manx,&quot; first published in 1901 in two volumes.&#xA;&#xA;If you want to do a real deep-dive and you have a lot of free time, I would start with Rhys.  He basically piled together everything he could find, giving multiple iterations of the same tales/themes (and often in the words of a source directly) to highlight similarities and differences -- which, while robust, can get a bit stale.  Keightley, on the other hand, might read more easily.&#xA;&#xA;--------&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; The British Isles, France, and the Iberian Peninsula are the regions I'm mostly knowledgeable of, and this is the position I am answering from. If you want to branch out into other areas than English, British or otherwise &quot;Celtic&quot; faeries, I can research some Eastern European lore for you, or perhaps others will chime in.  In brief, I will say there are certainly some similarities between Eastern European and Western European folk-tales.  Likewise, Scandinavian folklore also overlaps with Western Europe thematically in many cases due to cultural interactions and common sources, while also having their own brands of mythological creatures.)&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; The notion of the &quot;noble faerie&quot; (for lack of a better term) itself evolved largely throughout the Early Modern Period and beyond; while not necessarily absent, it was not something highlighted substantially during the earlier portions Middle Ages. Additionally, contemporary ideas about faeries are heavily influenced by Tolkien's impactful portrayal of his noble (faerie-inspired) elven race.&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; You will also find this motif extended to other supernatural beings within the same regional folk traditions, notably Satan and witches.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/41006/41006-h/41006-h.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20707" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6226" RevisionGUID="80b5c9f3-9a48-4489-b589-a8f68aeeb199" CreationDate="2020-03-08T16:59:56.750" UserId="5787" Comment="deleted 17 characters in body; edited body; added 13 characters in body; added 6 characters in body" Text="Great question.  The short answer is that the development of faeries being literally unable to lie is a more modern take&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;.  Additionally, your question raises interesting broader points about the relevant folk-lore.  &#xA;&#xA;Insofar as faeries and lying goes, there's nuance here between earlier traditions&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; and more recent portrayals:  Generally speaking, older stories feature faeries who *will not* lie rather than explicitly indicating they *cannot* lie.&#xD;&#xA;&#xA;The distinction here is an important one: if you're fundamentally unable to lie, then you never have to *choose* whether to be truthful. You might wish you could lie about something and regret not being able to.&#xA;&#xA;(Why is this important?  Folk-tales overall tend to portray the world as a place where there is a proper, natural order to things. We pass down folk-tales partly to explain either how things &quot;are&quot; or how we feel the world ideally &quot;should be.&quot;)&#xA;&#xA;In your example about the Welsh boy, the faeries &quot;don't make oaths,&quot; not because it's impossible for them to lie and thus pointless to do so, but because they *abhor* lying, so it's completely unnecessary.  By extension, this reflects the notion that, although human beings are perfectly capable of telling lies, a person should likewise find breaking their word &quot;unnatural,&quot; so to speak.  (This is not to imply that faeries themselves are normally meant to serve as models of human behavior.)&#xA;&#xA;More to your question, consider how faerie mythology commonly features the notion of faeries being tricksters or manipulative.  Oftentimes, the way you overcome some faerie mischief is by outsmarting the faerie or discovering an important secret about them -- beating them at their own game. If faeries didn't abide by their codes, there would be no order and you would never &quot;win.&quot;  (The tale with Rumpelstiltskin would be less compelling if at the end he yelled &quot;Psych!&quot; and made off with the goods, anyway.)&#xA;&#xA;Now, when I say “code,” I don’t necessarily mean “code of honor&quot;: while faeries are often helpful and friendly, then can just as soon be very much the opposite of honorable and helpful by our typical human ideals.  It’s more about adherence to a set of personal or societal standards, though what exactly such “standards” might be for a faerie varies depending on the tale. The point is that faeries play by their own rules, but they *do* stick to those rules, by and large.&#xA;&#xA;To sum-up, the concept of lying in itself is not really an overt concern in most western folk-tales where supernatural beings are up to perfidious deeds&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;. Any verbal trickery more often entails misleading or ambiguous wording rather than outright lies.  Returning to the tale you mentioned, I find it interesting that the recorded versions make mention of the faeries' love of truth, as this seems to have no real bearing on the story.  Perhaps we're missing a piece now, or two versions were conflated wherein the faeries served as an example to the boy: in a related form of this tale, it isn't theft that crosses the faeries, but the fact the boy had agreed not to reveal their existence whatsoever and subsequently breaks his word.  Other versions combine this with another common motif: he's allowed to take gold back with him on the promise of not revealing the source of the gold, yet he ultimately does. (In the boy's defense, it's usually because his suspicious father beats it out of him. Perhaps one take-away should be that he could have lied to his father, but didn’t?)&#xA;&#xA;As for other forms of deceitful actions, there are, of course, changelings, which you bring up in comments. There are also tales regarding faeries in markets paying with fake money that later reverts to some worthless thing, or even simply stealing outright.&#xA;&#xA;For further reading, I will refer you to two sources.  Both of these collections were compiled over 100 years ago when much of this knowledge remained much more fresh than it is today. (Be warned, however, that these books are long, wordy, and in the second instance, intentionally redundant for the sake of thoroughness.)  You should find that overwhelmingly faerie mythology is more about mischief and trickery without ever really saying they are unable to lie:&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;1. There is a version of Thomas Keightley's &quot;[The Fairy Mythology][1]&quot; on Project Gutenberg, published 1892. (It also contains a version of the Elidurus tale with similar wording to the one you quoted.)&#xA;&#xA;2. Google Play Books has multiple versions (some free) of John Rhys' &quot;Celtic Folklore: Welsh and Manx,&quot; first published in 1901 in two volumes.&#xA;&#xA;If you want to do a real deep-dive and you have a lot of free time, I would start with Rhys.  He basically piled together everything he could find, giving multiple iterations of the same tales/themes (and often in the words of a source directly) to highlight similarities and differences -- which, while robust, can get a bit stale.  Keightley, on the other hand, might read more easily.&#xA;&#xA;--------&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; It's always worth mentioning that contemporary ideas about faeries are heavily influenced by Tolkien's impactful portrayal of his noble (faerie-inspired) elven race.  His fingerprints are all over the modern fantasy genre.&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; The British Isles, France, and the Iberian Peninsula are the regions I'm mostly knowledgeable of, and this is the position I am answering from. If you want to branch out into other areas than English, British or otherwise &quot;Celtic&quot; faeries, I can research some Eastern European lore for you, or even better, perhaps others will chime in.  In brief, I will say there are certainly some similarities between Eastern European and Western European folk-tales.  Likewise, Scandinavian folklore also overlaps with Western Europe thematically in many cases due to cultural interactions and common sources, while also having their own brands of mythological creatures.)&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; You will also find this motif extended to other supernatural beings within the same regional folk traditions, notably Satan and witches.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/41006/41006-h/41006-h.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20708" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6226" RevisionGUID="c02b3218-2972-48e8-a3e8-12c7676ef5bb" CreationDate="2020-03-08T17:07:15.670" UserId="5787" Comment="added 5 characters in body" Text="Great question.  The short answer is that the development of faeries being literally unable to lie is a more modern take&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;.  Additionally, your question raises interesting broader points about the relevant folk-lore.  &#xA;&#xA;Insofar as faeries and lying goes, there's nuance here between earlier traditions&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; and more recent portrayals:  Generally speaking, older stories feature faeries who *will not* lie rather than explicitly indicating they *cannot* lie.&#xD;&#xA;&#xA;The distinction here is an important one: if you're fundamentally unable to lie, then you never have to *choose* whether to be truthful. You might wish you could lie about something and regret not being able to.&#xA;&#xA;(Why is this important?  Folk-tales overall tend to portray the world as a place where there is a proper, natural order to things. We pass down folk-tales partly to explain either how things &quot;are&quot; or how we feel the world ideally &quot;should be.&quot;)&#xA;&#xA;In your example about the Welsh boy, the faeries &quot;don't make oaths,&quot; not because it's impossible for them to lie and thus pointless to do so, but because they *abhor* lying, so it's completely unnecessary.  By extension, this reflects the notion that, although human beings are perfectly capable of telling lies, a person should likewise find breaking their word &quot;unnatural,&quot; so to speak.  (This is not to imply that faeries themselves are normally meant to serve as models of human behavior.)&#xA;&#xA;More to your question, consider how faerie mythology commonly features the notion of faeries being tricksters or manipulative.  Oftentimes, the way you overcome some faerie mischief is by outsmarting the faerie or discovering an important secret about them -- beating them at their own game. If faeries didn't abide by their codes, there would be no order and you would never &quot;win.&quot;  (The tale with Rumpelstiltskin would be less compelling if at the end he yelled &quot;Psych!&quot; and made off with the goods, anyway.)&#xA;&#xA;Now, when I say “code,” I don’t necessarily mean “code of honor&quot;: while faeries are often helpful and friendly, then can just as soon be very much the opposite of honorable and helpful by our typical human ideals.  It’s more about adherence to a set of personal or societal standards, though what exactly such “standards” might be for a faerie varies depending on the tale. The point is that faeries play by their own rules, but they *do* stick to those rules, by and large.&#xA;&#xA;To sum-up, the concept of lying in itself is not really an overt concern in most western folk-tales where supernatural beings are up to perfidious deeds&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;. Any verbal trickery more often entails misleading or ambiguous wording rather than outright lies.  Returning to the tale you mentioned, I find it interesting that the recorded versions make mention of the faeries' love of truth, as this seems to have no real bearing on the story.  Perhaps we're missing a piece now, or two versions were conflated wherein the faeries served as an example to the boy: in a related form of this tale, it isn't theft that crosses the faeries, but the fact the boy had agreed not to reveal their existence whatsoever and subsequently breaks his word.  Other versions combine this with another common motif: he's allowed to take gold back with him on the promise of not revealing the source of the gold, yet he ultimately does. (In the boy's defense, it's usually because his suspicious father beats it out of him. Perhaps one take-away should be that he could have lied to his father, but didn’t?)&#xA;&#xA;As for other forms of deceitful actions, there are, of course, changelings, which you bring up in comments. There are also tales regarding faeries in markets paying with fake money that later reverts to some worthless thing, or even simply stealing outright.&#xA;&#xA;For further reading, I will refer you to two sources.  Both of these collections were compiled over 100 years ago when much of this knowledge remained much more fresh than it is today. (Be warned, however, that these books are long, wordy, and in the second instance, intentionally redundant for the sake of thoroughness.)  You should find that overwhelmingly faerie mythology is more about mischief and trickery without ever really saying they are unable to lie:&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;1. There is a version of Thomas Keightley's &quot;[The Fairy Mythology][1]&quot; on Project Gutenberg, published 1892. (It also contains a version of the Elidurus tale with similar wording to the one you quoted.)&#xA;&#xA;2. Google Play Books has multiple versions (some free) of John Rhys' &quot;Celtic Folklore: Welsh and Manx,&quot; first published in 1901 in two volumes.&#xA;&#xA;If you want to do a real deep-dive into &quot;Celtic&quot; lore in general, I would start with Rhys.  He basically piled together everything he could find, giving multiple iterations of the same tales/themes (and often in the words of a source directly) to highlight similarities and differences.  (While robust, it can admittedly get a bit stale; Keightley, on the other hand, might read more easily.)&#xA;&#xA;--------&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; It's always worth mentioning that contemporary ideas about faeries are heavily influenced by Tolkien's impactful portrayal of his noble (faerie-inspired) elven race.  His fingerprints are all over the modern fantasy genre.&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; The British Isles, France, and the Iberian Peninsula are the regions I'm mostly knowledgeable of, and this is the position I am answering from. If you want to branch out into other areas than English, British or otherwise &quot;Celtic&quot; faeries, I can research some Eastern European lore for you, or even better, perhaps others will chime in.  In brief, I will say there are certainly some similarities between Eastern European and Western European folk-tales.  Likewise, Scandinavian folklore also overlaps with Western Europe thematically in many cases due to cultural interactions and common sources, while also having their own brands of mythological creatures.)&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; You will also find this motif extended to other supernatural beings within the same regional folk traditions, notably Satan and witches.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/41006/41006-h/41006-h.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20709" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6226" RevisionGUID="af133980-6813-447b-bd51-359d0e14f440" CreationDate="2020-03-08T17:15:39.177" UserId="5787" Comment="deleted 90 characters in body" Text="Great question.  The short answer is that the development of faeries being literally unable to lie is a more modern take&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;.  Additionally, your question raises interesting broader points about the relevant folk-lore.  &#xA;&#xA;Insofar as faeries and lying goes, there's nuance here between earlier traditions&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; and more recent portrayals:  Generally speaking, older stories feature faeries who *will not* lie rather than explicitly indicating they *cannot* lie.&#xD;&#xA;&#xA;The distinction here is an important one: if you're fundamentally unable to lie, then you never have to *choose* whether to be truthful. You might wish you could lie about something and regret not being able to.&#xA;&#xA;(Why is this important?  Folk-tales overall tend to portray the world as a place where there is a proper, natural order to things. We pass down folk-tales partly to explain either how things &quot;are&quot; or how we feel the world ideally &quot;should be.&quot;)&#xA;&#xA;In your example about the Welsh boy, the faeries &quot;don't make oaths,&quot; not because it's impossible for them to lie and thus pointless to do so, but because they *abhor* lying, so it's completely unnecessary.  By extension, this reflects the notion that, although human beings are perfectly capable of telling lies, a person should likewise find breaking their word &quot;unnatural,&quot; so to speak.  (This is not to imply that faeries themselves are normally meant to serve as models of human behavior.)&#xA;&#xA;More to your question, consider how faerie mythology commonly features the notion of faeries being tricksters or manipulative.  Oftentimes, the way you overcome some faerie mischief is by outsmarting the faerie or discovering an important secret about them -- beating them at their own game. If faeries didn't abide by their codes, there would be no order and you would never &quot;win.&quot;  (The tale with Rumpelstiltskin would be less compelling if at the end he yelled &quot;Psych!&quot; and made off with the goods, anyway.)&#xA;&#xA;Now, when I say “code,” I don’t necessarily mean “code of honor&quot;: while faeries are often helpful and friendly, then can just as soon be very much the opposite of honorable and helpful by our typical human ideals.  It’s more about adherence to a set of personal or societal standards, though what exactly such “standards” might be for a faerie varies depending on the tale. The point is that faeries play by their own rules, but they *do* stick to those rules, by and large.&#xA;&#xA;To sum-up, the concept of lying in itself is not really an overt concern in most western folk-tales where supernatural beings are up to perfidious deeds&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;. Any verbal trickery more often entails misleading or ambiguous wording rather than outright lies.  Returning to the tale you mentioned, I find it interesting that the recorded versions make mention of the faeries' love of truth, as this seems to have no real bearing on the story.  Perhaps we're missing a piece now, or two versions were conflated wherein the faeries served as an example to the boy: in a related form of this tale, it isn't theft that crosses the faeries, but the fact the boy had agreed not to reveal their existence whatsoever and subsequently breaks his word.  Other versions combine this with another common motif: he's allowed to take gold back with him on the promise of not revealing the source of the gold, yet he ultimately does. (In the boy's defense, it's usually because his suspicious father beats it out of him. Perhaps one take-away should be that he could have lied to his father, but didn’t?)&#xA;&#xA;As for other forms of deceitful actions, there are, of course, changelings, which you bring up in comments. There are also tales regarding faeries in markets paying with fake money that later reverts to some worthless thing, or even simply stealing outright.&#xA;&#xA;For further reading, I will refer you to two sources.  Both of these collections were compiled over 100 years ago when much of this knowledge remained much more fresh than it is today. (Be warned, however, that these books are long, wordy, and in the second instance, intentionally redundant for the sake of thoroughness.)  You should find that overwhelmingly faerie mythology is more about mischief and trickery without ever really saying they are unable to lie:&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;1. There is a version of Thomas Keightley's &quot;[The Fairy Mythology][1]&quot; on Project Gutenberg, published 1892. (It also contains a version of the Elidurus tale with similar wording to the one you quoted.)&#xA;&#xA;2. Google Play Books has multiple versions (some free) of John Rhys' &quot;Celtic Folklore: Welsh and Manx,&quot; first published in 1901 in two volumes.&#xA;&#xA;If you want to do a real deep-dive into &quot;Celtic&quot; lore in general, I would start with Rhys.  He basically piled together everything he could find, giving multiple iterations of the same tales/themes (and often in the words of a source directly) to highlight similarities and differences.  (While robust, it can admittedly get a bit stale; Keightley, on the other hand, might read more easily.)&#xA;&#xA;--------&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; It's always worth mentioning that contemporary ideas about faeries are heavily influenced by Tolkien's impactful portrayal of his noble (faerie-inspired) elven race.  His fingerprints are all over the modern fantasy genre.&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; The British Isles, France, and the Iberian Peninsula are the regions I'm mostly knowledgeable of, and this is the position I am answering from. But I can tell you there are certainly some similarities between these areas and Germanic and Eastern European folk-tales.  Likewise, Scandinavian folklore shares thematic commonalities with English and other Western European lore due to cultural interactions and common sources, while also having their own brands of mythological creatures.  Perhaps others can chime in with information about these other regions' traditions.&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; You will also find this motif extended to other supernatural beings within the same regional folk traditions, notably Satan and witches.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/41006/41006-h/41006-h.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20710" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6226" RevisionGUID="a29afdb4-3319-44db-bdfe-b04b1211b4a7" CreationDate="2020-03-08T23:43:01.600" UserId="5787" Comment="added 99 characters in body; deleted 106 characters in body; added 39 characters in body; added 20 characters in body" Text="Great question.  The short answer is that the development of faeries being literally unable to lie is a more modern take&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;. There's no question faeries could be deceptive in earlier traditions, but outright lying is atypical.  Additionally, your question raises interesting related points about the relevant folklore.&#xA;&#xA;Insofar as faeries and lying goes, there's nuance here between earlier traditions&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; and more recent portrayals:  Generally speaking, older stories feature faeries who *will not* lie rather than explicitly indicating they *cannot* lie.&#xD;&#xA;&#xA;The distinction here is an important one: if you're fundamentally unable to lie, then you never have to *choose* whether to be truthful. You might wish you could lie about something and regret not being able to.&#xA;&#xA;(Why is this important?  Folk-tales overall tend to portray the world as a place where there is a proper, natural order to things. We pass down folk-tales partly to explain either how things &quot;are&quot; or how we feel the world ideally &quot;should be.&quot;)&#xA;&#xA;In your example about the Welsh boy, the faeries &quot;don't make oaths,&quot; not because it's impossible for them to lie and thus pointless to do so, but because they *abhor* lying, so it's completely unnecessary.  By extension, this reflects the notion that, although human beings are perfectly capable of telling lies, a person should likewise find breaking their word &quot;unnatural,&quot; so to speak.  (This is not to imply that faeries themselves are normally meant to serve as models of human behavior.)&#xA;&#xA;More to your question, consider how faerie mythology commonly features the notion of faeries being tricksters or manipulative.  Oftentimes, the way you overcome some faerie mischief is by outsmarting the faerie or discovering an important secret about them -- beating them at their own game. If faeries didn't abide by their codes, there would be no order and you would never &quot;win.&quot;  (The tale with Rumpelstiltskin would be less compelling if at the end he yelled &quot;Psych!&quot; and made off with the goods, anyway.)&#xA;&#xA;Now, when I say “code,” I don’t necessarily mean “code of honor&quot;: while faeries are often helpful and friendly, then can just as soon be very much the opposite of honorable and helpful by our typical human ideals.  It’s more about adherence to a set of personal or societal standards, though what exactly such “standards” might be for a faerie varies depending on the tale. The point is that faeries play by their own rules, but they *do* stick to those rules, by and large.&#xA;&#xA;To sum-up, the concept of lying in itself is not really an overt concern in most western folk-tales where supernatural beings are up to perfidious deeds&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;. Any verbal trickery more often entails misleading or ambiguous wording rather than outright lies.  Returning to the tale you mentioned, I find it interesting that the recorded versions we have of it today make mention of the faeries' love of truth, as this seems to have no real bearing on the story.  Perhaps we're missing a piece now, or two versions were conflated wherein the faeries served as an example to the boy: in a related form of this tale, it isn't theft that crosses the faeries, but the fact the boy had agreed not to reveal their existence whatsoever and subsequently breaks his word.  Other versions combine this with another common motif: he's allowed to take gold back with him on the promise of not revealing the source of the gold, yet he ultimately does. (In the boy's defense, it's usually because his suspicious father beats it out of him. Perhaps one take-away should be that he could have lied to his father, but didn’t?)&#xA;&#xA;As for other forms of deceitful actions, there are, of course, changelings, which you bring up in comments. There are also tales regarding faeries in markets paying with fake money that later reverts to some worthless thing, or even simply stealing outright.&#xA;&#xA;For further reading, I will refer you to two sources.  Both of these collections were compiled over 100 years ago when much of this knowledge remained much more fresh than it is today. (Be warned, however, that these books are long, wordy, and in the second instance, intentionally redundant for the sake of thoroughness.)  You should find that overwhelmingly faerie mythology is more about mischief and trickery without ever really saying they are unable to lie:&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;1. There is a version of Thomas Keightley's &quot;[The Fairy Mythology][1]&quot; on Project Gutenberg, published 1892. (It also contains a version of the Elidurus tale with similar wording to the one you quoted.)&#xA;&#xA;2. Google Play Books has multiple versions (some free) of John Rhys' &quot;Celtic Folklore: Welsh and Manx,&quot; first published in 1901 in two volumes.&#xA;&#xA;If you want to do a real deep-dive into &quot;Celtic&quot; lore in general, I would start with Rhys.  He basically piled together everything he could find, giving multiple iterations of the same tales/themes (and often in the words of a source directly) to highlight similarities and differences.  As such, it's repetitive, but robust.&#xA;&#xA;--------&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; It's always worth mentioning that contemporary ideas about faeries are heavily influenced by Tolkien's impactful portrayal of his noble (faerie-inspired) elven race.  His fingerprints are all over the modern fantasy genre.&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; The British Isles, France, and the Iberian Peninsula are the regions I'm mostly knowledgeable of, and this is the position I am answering from. But I can tell you there are certainly some similarities between these areas and Germanic and Eastern European folk-tales.  Likewise, Scandinavian folklore shares thematic commonalities with English and other Western European lore due to cultural interactions and common sources, while also having their own brands of mythological creatures.  Perhaps others can chime in with information about these other regions' traditions.&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; You will also find this motif extended to other supernatural beings within the same regional folk traditions, notably Satan and witches.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/41006/41006-h/41006-h.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20711" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6226" RevisionGUID="7fec52c8-9d18-4ed9-a819-bb66d56735cc" CreationDate="2020-03-08T23:48:10.163" UserId="5787" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="Great question.  The short answer is that the development of faeries being literally unable to lie is a more modern take&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;. There's no question faeries could be deceptive in earlier traditions, but outright lying is atypical.  Additionally, your question raises interesting related points about the relevant folklore.&#xA;&#xA;Insofar as faeries and lying goes, there's nuance here between earlier traditions&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; and more recent portrayals:  Generally speaking, older stories feature faeries who *will not* lie rather than explicitly indicating they *cannot* lie.&#xD;&#xA;&#xA;The distinction here is an important one: if you're fundamentally unable to lie, then you never have to *choose* whether to be truthful. You might wish you could lie about something and regret not being able to.&#xA;&#xA;(Why is this important?  Folk-tales overall tend to portray the world as a place where there is a proper, natural order to things. We pass down folk-tales partly to explain either how things &quot;are&quot; or how we feel the world ideally &quot;should be.&quot;)&#xA;&#xA;In your example about the Welsh boy, the faeries &quot;don't make oaths,&quot; not because it's impossible for them to lie and thus pointless to do so, but because they *abhor* lying, so it's completely unnecessary.  By extension, this reflects the notion that, although human beings are perfectly capable of telling lies, a person should likewise find breaking their word &quot;unnatural,&quot; so to speak.  (This is not to imply that faeries themselves are normally meant to serve as models of human behavior.)&#xA;&#xA;More to your question, consider how faerie mythology commonly features the notion of faeries being tricksters or manipulative.  Oftentimes, the way you overcome some faerie mischief is by outsmarting the faerie or discovering an important secret about them -- beating them at their own game. If faeries didn't abide by their codes, there would be no order and you would never &quot;win.&quot;  (The tale with Rumpelstiltskin would be less compelling if at the end he yelled &quot;Psych!&quot; and made off with the goods, anyway.)&#xA;&#xA;Now, when I say “code,” I don’t necessarily mean “code of honor&quot;: while faeries are often helpful and friendly, then can just as soon be very much the opposite of honorable and helpful by our typical human ideals.  It’s more about adherence to a set of personal or societal standards, though what exactly such “standards” might be for a faerie varies depending on the tale. The point is that faeries play by their own rules, but they *do* stick to those rules, by and large.&#xA;&#xA;To sum-up, the concept of lying in itself is not really an overt concern in most western folk-tales where supernatural beings are up to perfidious deeds&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;. Any verbal trickery more often entails misleading or ambiguous wording rather than outright lies.  Returning to the tale you mentioned, I find it interesting that the recorded versions we have of it today make mention of these faeries' love of truth, as this seems to have no real bearing on the story.  Perhaps we're missing a piece now, or two versions were conflated wherein the faeries served as an example to the boy: in a related form of this tale, it isn't theft that crosses the faeries, but the fact the boy had agreed not to reveal their existence whatsoever and subsequently breaks his word.  Other versions combine this with another common motif: he's allowed to take gold back with him on the promise of not revealing the source of the gold, yet he ultimately does. (In the boy's defense, it's usually because his suspicious father beats it out of him. Perhaps one take-away should be that he could have lied to his father, but didn’t?)&#xA;&#xA;As for other forms of deceitful actions, there are, of course, changelings, which you bring up in comments. There are also tales regarding faeries in markets paying with fake money that later reverts to some worthless thing, or even simply stealing outright.&#xA;&#xA;For further reading, I will refer you to two sources.  Both of these collections were compiled over 100 years ago when much of this knowledge remained much more fresh than it is today. (Be warned, however, that these books are long, wordy, and in the second instance, intentionally redundant for the sake of thoroughness.)  You should find that overwhelmingly faerie mythology is more about mischief and trickery without ever really saying they are unable to lie:&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;1. There is a version of Thomas Keightley's &quot;[The Fairy Mythology][1]&quot; on Project Gutenberg, published 1892. (It also contains a version of the Elidurus tale with similar wording to the one you quoted.)&#xA;&#xA;2. Google Play Books has multiple versions (some free) of John Rhys' &quot;Celtic Folklore: Welsh and Manx,&quot; first published in 1901 in two volumes.&#xA;&#xA;If you want to do a real deep-dive into &quot;Celtic&quot; lore in general, I would start with Rhys.  He basically piled together everything he could find, giving multiple iterations of the same tales/themes (and often in the words of a source directly) to highlight similarities and differences.  As such, it's repetitive, but robust.&#xA;&#xA;--------&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; It's always worth mentioning that contemporary ideas about faeries are heavily influenced by Tolkien's impactful portrayal of his noble (faerie-inspired) elven race.  His fingerprints are all over the modern fantasy genre.&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; The British Isles, France, and the Iberian Peninsula are the regions I'm mostly knowledgeable of, and this is the position I am answering from. But I can tell you there are certainly some similarities between these areas and Germanic and Eastern European folk-tales.  Likewise, Scandinavian folklore shares thematic commonalities with English and other Western European lore due to cultural interactions and common sources, while also having their own brands of mythological creatures.  Perhaps others can chime in with information about these other regions' traditions.&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; You will also find this motif extended to other supernatural beings within the same regional folk traditions, notably Satan and witches.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/41006/41006-h/41006-h.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20715" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6235" RevisionGUID="7f447440-e631-4fb4-9c6e-004d41aaad83" CreationDate="2020-03-10T22:50:55.617" UserId="6394" Text="I've been trying to research the roles of the goddesses Adeona and Abeona in Roman mythology, but am having great difficulty finding primary sources, such as the texts of Roman myths and literature. The closest I can find is an extract from St. Augustine's &quot;City of God&quot;, in which he is apparently referring to sections of Varro's *Antiquities*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; What need had women in childbirth to invoke Lucina, when, if Felicity should be&#xD;&#xA;present, they would have, not only a good delivery, but good children too? What need&#xD;&#xA;was there to commend the children to the goddess Ops when they were being born; to&#xD;&#xA;the god Vaticanus in their birth-cry; to the goddess Cunina when lying cradled; to the&#xD;&#xA;goddess Rumina when sucking; to the god Statilinus when standing; to the goddess&#xD;&#xA;Adeona when coming, to Abeona when going away; to the goddess Mens that they&#xD;&#xA;might have a good mind... (bk. IV, sec. 21)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If I understand correctly, Varro's original text is now lost, and Augustine's work may in some cases be the only remaining source of information on what it said. I certainly haven't been able to find any other primary sources (e.g. translations of Roman myths) as to the role of these two minor goddesses.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are various unsourced claims on the Internet (and even in scholarly papers) which seem to be based on different interpretations of the passage above. Adeona is variously claimed to be:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* The goddess of returning from somewhere.&#xD;&#xA;* The goddess of homecomings. (more specific than the above, as the return is specifically to one's home.)&#xD;&#xA;* The goddess of safe return&#xD;&#xA;* Someone who presides over bringing children home safely, and who watches them as they travel to/from school.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And Abeona has been:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* The goddess of departures.&#xD;&#xA;* Someone who protected children during their first voyage away from their parents.&#xD;&#xA;* Someone concerned with children &quot;going out&quot; and &quot;coming in&quot; safely.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All of these are consistent with different readings of the Augustine text, in which different aspects of the things he describes them as doing are considered part of their core purpose.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What exactly is *known* about the roles of these two deities in the Roman pantheon? Have any of the relevant sections of Varro's *Antiquities*, or any other citable primary source, survived to this day?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20716" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6235" RevisionGUID="7f447440-e631-4fb4-9c6e-004d41aaad83" CreationDate="2020-03-10T22:50:55.617" UserId="6394" Text="Adeona and Abeona" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20717" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6235" RevisionGUID="7f447440-e631-4fb4-9c6e-004d41aaad83" CreationDate="2020-03-10T22:50:55.617" UserId="6394" Text="|roman|goddesses|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20718" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6236" RevisionGUID="7767f58c-3ad3-443e-b017-5cd934b3f9dd" CreationDate="2020-03-11T00:40:27.323" UserId="6754" Text="**Minos** was the judge of the *third and final vote*, when the jury was compossed of just **Rhadamanthys**, &#xD;&#xA; **Minos** and **Aeacus** . After the fourth judge was added, the majority in the judgement was not guaranteed, so I can only see two possibilities here:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. The vote of **Minos** (owner of the *final vote*) will decide if the result is 2-2.&#xD;&#xA; 2. **Triptolemus** is not allowed to be part of the &quot;old&quot; judges cases, neither could they participate in Triptolemus's ones. Making **Triptolemus** *the only judge over the souls of Initiates of the Mysteries.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Well, just some curiosity here...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20719" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6236" RevisionGUID="7767f58c-3ad3-443e-b017-5cd934b3f9dd" CreationDate="2020-03-11T00:40:27.323" UserId="6754" Text="After Triptolemus being added to Hades' jury, is Minos the most important judge?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20720" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6236" RevisionGUID="7767f58c-3ad3-443e-b017-5cd934b3f9dd" CreationDate="2020-03-11T00:40:27.323" UserId="6754" Text="|greek|underworld|demi-gods|hades|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20721" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6237" RevisionGUID="130fa6cd-73bc-4ebe-b486-cd758cce0c7a" CreationDate="2020-03-11T10:46:28.893" UserId="6755" Text="Apparently, Astarte/Athtart/Ashtart the Phoenician/Carthaginian goddess was a variation of (or that she simply derived from the same religious figure) the Babylonian Ishtar (who was herself a fusion of Inanna and some Akkadian goddess named Ištar), but what of Anat(h)? As it was shown in the texts regarding Baal, another Phoenician deity sometimes depicted as Astarte's consort, Anat and Ishtar share various similarities as both were worshipped as war deities and the former, though not as explicitly as the latter, seemed to have some attributes that were considered sexual (it was described that she and Baal grabbed each others' genitals, similar to the erotic description in Inanna and Dumuzid's courtship), another similarity was when Anat complained to El, which was itself similar to Inanna's threat to Anu...and last was her descent to the underworld, though she wasn't trapped there as Inanna/Ishtar was in Sumerian myths, her goal was the same: to find her consort, and that, was almost identical to the earlier myths of Inanna when she sought not to take her sister's throne but to resurrect her lover Dumuzid.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Besides all that, I read the article [here][1] which claimed Astarte and Anant may originally be a same deity, but ultimately split into two.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Additionally, could Al-lat the Arabian deity be seen as variation of the above figures as well? Their similarities seem to be the aspects of fertility, war, [lions][2], and crescent. To ask the question more precisely, could Al-Lat, Anat/Anath, Ishtar/Astarte be seen as the &quot;descendants&quot; of an early Semitic goddess associated with love, war, and sexuality? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Astarte-ancient-deity&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35720366" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20722" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6237" RevisionGUID="130fa6cd-73bc-4ebe-b486-cd758cce0c7a" CreationDate="2020-03-11T10:46:28.893" UserId="6755" Text="Anat and Ištar (west Semitic deity), did these deities derive from the same Semitic deity?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20723" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6237" RevisionGUID="130fa6cd-73bc-4ebe-b486-cd758cce0c7a" CreationDate="2020-03-11T10:46:28.893" UserId="6755" Text="|mesopotamia|arabic|inanna|akkadian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20724" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6238" RevisionGUID="b1d6a497-1a6e-4a0b-bf2b-480c0b2d64a9" CreationDate="2020-03-11T12:33:42.930" UserId="197" Text="I do not know the origin of this piece of folklore, but I can point to one similar story.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's a fairy tale by Lázár Ervin titled [“A molnár fia zsák búzája”][s], anthologized in [*A hétfejű tündér*][b] (1973).  In this tale, a young man receives a sack of wheat from his father, together with advice about a land where the wheat should be sowed to get an unusually large yield.  The young man travels for very long, and finds two fields that are similar to the description he's got, but don't quite match the description, before he finds the right place.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;! This is a tragic version of the story: the young man has sowed all his wheat before, and doesn't have any remaining by the time he reaches his destination.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[s]: http://mek.oszk.hu/02700/02732/02732.htm#16&#xD;&#xA;[b]: http://mek.oszk.hu/02700/02732/&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20725" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6239" RevisionGUID="8fbcdebe-37a6-4143-b32d-d4dfcdd74778" CreationDate="2020-03-12T09:22:07.393" UserId="6758" Text="Mine question: Did Hermes ever somehow helped Prometheus, or not? Is he God of thieves, or what?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did Hermes helped Prometheus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  - During his feat&#xD;&#xA;  - Or while Prometheus served a life sentence." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20726" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6239" RevisionGUID="8fbcdebe-37a6-4143-b32d-d4dfcdd74778" CreationDate="2020-03-12T09:22:07.393" UserId="6758" Text="Did Hermes ever somehow helped Prometheus, or not? Is he God of thieves, or what?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20727" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6239" RevisionGUID="8fbcdebe-37a6-4143-b32d-d4dfcdd74778" CreationDate="2020-03-12T09:22:07.393" UserId="6758" Text="|greek|zeus|mythohistory|hermes|prometheus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20728" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6237" RevisionGUID="83a25321-bc07-4e32-9d63-0e4c71ea556b" CreationDate="2020-03-12T11:11:22.113" UserId="5726" Comment="formatted " Text="Apparently, Astarte/Athtart/Ashtart the Phoenician/Carthaginian goddess was a variation of (or that she simply derived from the same religious figure) the Babylonian Ishtar (who was herself a fusion of Inanna and some Akkadian goddess named Ištar), but what of Anat(h)? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As it was shown in the texts regarding Baal, another Phoenician deity sometimes depicted as Astarte's consort, Anat and Ishtar share various similarities as both were worshipped as war deities and the former, though not as explicitly as the latter, seemed to have some attributes that were considered sexual (it was described that she and Baal grabbed each others' genitals, similar to the erotic description in Inanna and Dumuzid's courtship). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another similarity was when Anat complained to El, which was itself similar to Inanna's threat to Anu...and last was her descent to the underworld, though she wasn't trapped there as Inanna/Ishtar was in Sumerian myths, her goal was the same: to find her consort, and that, was almost identical to the earlier myths of Inanna when she sought not to take her sister's throne but to resurrect her lover Dumuzid.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Besides all that, I read the article [here][1] which claimed Astarte and Anant may originally be a same deity, but ultimately split into two.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Their similarities seem to be the aspects of fertility, war, [lions][2], and crescent. **To ask the question more precisely, could Al-Lat, Anat/Anath, Ishtar/Astarte be seen as the &quot;descendants&quot; of an early Semitic goddess associated with love, war, and sexuality?** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Additionally, could Al-lat the Arabian deity be seen as variation of the above figures as well?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Astarte-ancient-deity&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35720366" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20729" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6236" RevisionGUID="576ccd5b-e193-466e-81c4-bdeb1b54384a" CreationDate="2020-03-12T11:13:12.963" UserId="5726" Comment="Added question from title to body" Text="**Minos** was the judge of the *third and final vote*, when the jury was composed of just **Rhadamanthys**, &#xD;&#xA; **Minos** and **Aeacus** . After the fourth judge was added, the majority in the judgement was not guaranteed, so I can only see two possibilities here:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. The vote of **Minos** (owner of the *final vote*) will decide if the result is 2-2.&#xD;&#xA; 2. **Triptolemus** is not allowed to be part of the &quot;old&quot; judges cases, neither could they participate in Triptolemus's ones. Making **Triptolemus** *the only judge over the souls of Initiates of the Mysteries.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**After Triptolemus being added to Hades' jury, is Minos the most important judge?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20730" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6240" RevisionGUID="c54c871f-f00e-4899-9a60-fba9ee024370" CreationDate="2020-03-12T12:53:45.407" UserId="5726" Text="To answer your first question yes, Hermes was (among other things) a god of thievery.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An excerpt from the [*Hermes Theoi page*][1]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; HERMES was the Olympian god of herds and flocks, travellers and hospitality, roads and trade, **thievery** and cunning, heralds and diplomacy, language and writing, athletic contests and gymnasiums, astronomy and astrology. He was the herald and personal messenger of Zeus, King of the Gods, and also the guide of the dead who led souls down into the underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did Hermes help Prometheus steal fire (if this is the feat you talk about)?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;No&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hermes was tasked by Zeus to punish Prometheus by using iron spikes and chains to bind him to a a cliff (or rock) on Mount Caucasus, to get his heart eaten out by an eagle in perpetuum. The character(s) who chains Prometheus seems to fluctuate depending on the storyteller, in the Ancient Greek tragedy *Prometheus bound* [Hephaestus][2], [Kratos][3], and [Bia][4] are responsible for chaining him with only Hephaestus feeling remorse   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did Hermes help Prometheus while he was bound? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;No although Hermes does try to make it look that way to Prometheus (who doesn't fall for it). By offering Prometheus the option of telling who will be responsible for the overthrowing of Zeus so Prometheus won't be punished even more.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [*Prometheus Bound*][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A chorus of [Oceanids][6] appear and attempt to comfort Prometheus by conversing with him. Prometheus cryptically tells them that he knows of a potential marriage that would lead to Zeus's downfall. [Oceanus][7], the Titan father of the Oceanids, commiserates with Prometheus and urges him to make peace with Zeus. Prometheus tells the chorus that the gift of fire to mankind was not his only benefaction; in the so-called Catalogue of the Arts he reveals that he taught men all the civilizing arts, such as writing, medicine, mathematics, astronomy, metallurgy, architecture, and agriculture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Prometheus is then visited by [Io][8], a human maiden pursued by a lustful Zeus; the Olympian transformed Io into a cow, and a gadfly sent by Zeus's wife [Hera][9] has chased Io all the way from Argos. Prometheus forecasts Io's future travels, telling her that Zeus will eventually end her torment in Egypt, where she will bear a son named Epaphus. He says one of her descendants (an unnamed Heracles), thirteen generations hence, will release him from his own torment.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hermes is sent by Zeus to demand that Prometheus tell him who threatens to overthrow him.&#xD;&#xA;Prometheus refuses, and Zeus strikes him with a thunderbolt that plunges Prometheus into [Tartarus][10].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think the only character who actually helped Prometheus is Hercules.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&quot;Men in early times sought fire from the gods, and did not know how to keep it alive. Later Prometheus brought it to earth in a fennel-stalk, and showed men how to keep it covered over with ashes. *Because of this, Mercurius [Hermes], at Jove's [Zeus'] command, bound him with iron spikes to a cliff on Mount Caucasus, and set an eagle to eat out his heart; as much as it devoured in the day, so much grew again at night.* **After 30,000 years Hercules killed this eagle and freed Prometheus.&quot;** &lt;sub&gt;[Pseudo-Hyginus, Fabulae 144 (trans. Grant) (Roman mythographer C2nd A.D.)][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Hermes.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Hephaistos.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Kratos.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Bia.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://classics.mit.edu/Aeschylus/prometheus.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/Okeanides.html&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanOkeanos.html&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.theoi.com/Heroine/Io.html&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Hera.html&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://www.theoi.com/Kosmos/Tartaros.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20731" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6237" RevisionGUID="6d9d69d0-51e3-4a9b-b499-1ccee7075480" CreationDate="2020-03-12T14:23:41.800" UserId="6755" Comment="deleted 95 characters in body" Text="Apparently, Astarte/Athtart/Ashtart the Phoenician/Carthaginian goddess was a variation of (or that she simply derived from the same religious figure) the Babylonian Ishtar (who was herself a fusion of Inanna and some Akkadian goddess named Ištar), but what of Anat(h)? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As it was shown in the texts regarding Baal, another Phoenician deity sometimes depicted as Astarte's consort, Anat and Ishtar share various similarities as both were worshipped as war deities and the former, though not as explicitly as the latter, seemed to have some attributes that were considered sexual (it was described that she and Baal grabbed each others' genitals, similar to the erotic description in Inanna and Dumuzid's courtship). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another similarity was when Anat complained to El, which was itself similar to Inanna's threat to Anu...and last was her descent to the underworld, though she wasn't trapped there as Inanna/Ishtar was in Sumerian myths, her goal was the same: to find her consort, and that, was almost identical to the earlier myths of Inanna when she sought not to take her sister's throne but to resurrect her lover Dumuzid.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Besides all that, I read the article [here][1] which claimed Astarte and Anant may originally be a same deity, but ultimately split into two.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Their similarities seem to be the aspects of fertility, war, [lions][2], and crescent. **To ask the question more precisely, could Al-Lat, Anat/Anath, Ishtar/Astarte be seen as the &quot;descendants&quot; of an early Semitic goddess associated with love, war, and sexuality?** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Astarte-ancient-deity&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35720366" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20732" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5350" RevisionGUID="52ace5fd-bec0-4be5-a898-ed1d408d691f" CreationDate="2020-03-13T00:27:16.677" UserId="1317" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="What appears to have happened is a 20th Century conflation of two different legends, one involving leprechauns and gold and another involving rainbows and gold.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is really no evidence associating leprechauns with rainbows before the 20th century. (A different answer quotes a _Time_ magazine article from 1952). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sole folklore-related Google Books result from the 19th century containing both &quot;rainbow&quot; and &quot;leprechaun&quot; comes from _Irish Melodies_, a compendium of poems by Thomas Moore, but  a look at [the actual page](https://books.google.com/books?id=Z-ZTAAAAcAAJ&amp;pg=PA211&amp;dq=leprechaun+rainbow) is disappointing: the end of one poem mentions a rainbow while a footnote to the next poem mentions a leprechaun. It's just a typographical coincidence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An 1851 book of Northern mythology talks about pots of gold at the ends of rainbows as coming from Germanic myth:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to a popular belief in Germany, Denmark, and England, a golden cup or hidden treasure lies where the rainbow apparently touches the ground.  This seems a remnant of the belief in Mimir's spring, in which wisdom's golden treasure was concealed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-- Benjamin  Thorpe, _Northern Mythology_, London, 1851, [p. 158](https://books.google.com/books?id=sIBpAAAAcAAJ&amp;pg=PA158&amp;dq=gold+rainbow+mimir)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thorpe refers to [Mimir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mímir)'s well, which lies near the Jotunheim end of the rainbow bridge Bifrost. No leprechauns here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_[The Tree of Myth](https://books.google.com/books?id=maFZAAAAMAAJ&amp;pg=PA147&amp;dq=rainbow+&quot;pot+of+gold&quot;)_, an 1889 book of folklore by Charles de Berard Mills, states:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Children believe at this day that a golden cup or bag of gold lies at the end of a rainbow. The story comes from the ancient sun-myth so widely diffused, of the golden orb sinking into the waters of ocean or stream or lake.  In one transformation it was the legend of a golden treasure buried in the Rhine, as we have it in the [Niebelungen Lay](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nibelungenlied), then finally, changed as it is in the nursery tale, we see the old myth again. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;No leprechauns here, either.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Leprechaun gold is well-hidden and guarded. It doesn't have a rainbow directing the whole world to its location:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; If you could only catch the leprechaun at his work and hold him, he would tell you where the crock of gold, his hidden treasure, lies hidden. Nor would it turn into fairy-gold, once found. But the leprechaun is artful and plays shabby tricks sometimes. He was once caught by a peasant, and in return for his release indicated where a crock of gold lay. It was under a spike of ragweed in a thirty-acre field. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; -- &quot;[Irish Superstitions, Spells, and Charms](https://books.google.com/books?id=L6dXAAAAYAAJ&amp;pg=PA127&amp;dq=leprechaun++gold)&quot;,  Katherine Tynan Hickson, _The Outlook_ , collected in _Current Literature_, 1895&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice you don't find the leprechaun's gold just lying around at the end of the rainbow, you have to kidnap the creature and make him tell you where the gold is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a good segue to what appears to be what I think is the point of conflation, which is the 1947 Broadway musical _[Finian's Rainbow](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finian%27s_Rainbow)_,  by E. Y. Harburg and Burton Lane. It was a smash hit that ran for 725 performances, and was later made into a 1968 movie starring Fred Astaire and Petula Clark.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Ever since I was 2, you've been seeing leprechauns (in the cabbage patch) and rainbows over your whiskey jug.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The play revolves around a pot of gold that Finian McLonergan stole from a leprechaun in Ireland, then brought across the Atlantic to Rainbow Valley, Missitucky. He hopes to bury it near Fort Knox in hopes the gold will multiply. But Og the leprechaun follows Finian to America trying to get his gold back. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice it's not said the gold was found ***at*** the end of the rainbow...instead, Finian brought the gold ***to*** the end of the rainbow. Nevertheless the opening number &quot;Look To The Rainbow&quot; uses the rainbow as a metaphor for a dream to be followed. All of the elements swirl together and it looks like that's how this entered popular folklore.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20748" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6241" RevisionGUID="fd949a0b-5311-4924-8cb2-ac26d50957e1" CreationDate="2020-03-13T18:19:45.393" UserId="5787" Text="Looking over the [Motif-Index of Folk-Literature][1] and [Aarne–Thompson–Uther (ATU) Index][2], I couldn't find anything quite like you’re describing.  The closest thing I could find is ATU Type 160, [“The Grateful Animals and the Ungrateful Man&quot;][3], but it's not a close fit. To summarize, in this type of folk tale, a man rescues another man and several animals from a life-threatening situation. The animals repay his kindness, and he prospers, becoming wealthy and popular. The man who had been rescued, however, frames his rescuer for a crime he hadn’t committed. The village turns against the innocent man. He is sentenced to death, but is saved by devising a ploy with one of the animals to do something helpful for the village to get back on the people’s good graces.  He is able to return to his normal life.&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, again, this only vaguely resembles your criteria: a) he aids one person (but only one) who shows no gratitude in return, and b) his people do reject him, but then come to accept him *because* he ostensibly does something to help them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Additionally, there is ATU Type 155, [“Ingratitude Is the World's Reward.”][4] These stories don’t have the precise elements you’re looking for, either, but they do contain themes of ungratefulness.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motif-Index_of_Folk-Literature&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aarne%E2%80%93Thompson%E2%80%93Uther_Index&#xA;  [3]: http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0160.html&#xA;  [4]: http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0155.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20749" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="6236" RevisionGUID="30ab0ebe-bfa6-4abd-9a56-c91c12ab76c7" CreationDate="2020-03-14T01:01:42.830" UserId="6754" Comment="98" />
  <row Id="20750" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6242" RevisionGUID="9997b89f-1331-47f4-8226-2d48931e37c9" CreationDate="2020-03-14T10:25:12.233" UserId="5511" Text="From Plato's Gorgias, page 524:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; οὗτοι οὖν ἐπειδὰν τελευτήσωσι, δικάσουσιν ἐν τῷ λειμῶνι, ἐν τῇ τριόδῳ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ἐξ ἧς φέρετον τὼ ὁδώ, ἡ μὲν εἰς μακάρων νήσους, ἡ δ᾽ εἰς Τάρταρον. καὶ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; τοὺς μὲν ἐκ τῆς Ἀσίας Ῥαδάμανθυς κρινεῖ, τοὺς δὲ ἐκ τῆς Εὐρώπης&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Αἰακός: Μίνῳ δὲ πρεσβεῖα δώσω **ἐπιδιακρίνειν**, ἐὰν ἀπορῆτόν τι τὼ ἑτέρω,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ἵνα ὡς δικαιοτάτη ἡ κρίσις ᾖ περὶ τῆς πορείας τοῖς ἀνθρώποις&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;translated as:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These, when their life is ended, shall give judgement in the meadow at&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the dividing of the road, whence are the two ways leading, one to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Isles of the Blest, and the other to Tartarus. And those who come from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Asia shall Rhadamanthus try, and those from Europe, Aeacus; and to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Minos I will give the privilege of the final decision, if the other&#xD;&#xA;&gt; two be in any doubt; that the judgement upon this journey of mankind&#xD;&#xA;&gt; may be supremely just.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The word [ἐπιδιακρίνειν](https://lsj.gr/wiki/%E1%BC%90%CF%80%CE%B9%CE%B4%CE%B9%CE%B1%CE%BA%CF%81%CE%AF%CE%BD%CF%89) can be translated as:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - decide as umpire&#xD;&#xA; - confirm a sentence&#xD;&#xA; - estimate carefully&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So Minos' &quot;final vote&quot; as described in Plato's Gorgias should not be interpreted as &quot;tiebreaker&quot;. Rhadamanthus judged the dead coming from Asia, and Aeacus those from Europe. They had no &quot;vote&quot; in each others territory. The text seems to infer that Minos would be consulted if the &quot;regional judges&quot; were in doubt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The addition of Triptolemus, who presided over the souls of Initiates of the Mysteries, is found in some later versions of this myth. As with Rhadamanthus and Aeacus, he is thus given his own &quot;sphere of judgment&quot;. The texts that mention Triptolemus as a fourth judge do not mention any exception as to the privilege position of Minos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20751" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6220" RevisionGUID="a082ef34-36c3-4b14-9b19-3390471be66d" CreationDate="2020-03-14T14:33:37.830" UserId="2807" Comment="Minor improvements" Text="Is there an archetypal myth in which a person does something really good to humanity, but contrary to common sense that says that he should be thanked and praised, he's attacked by those whom he helped instead? There's a lot of situations like that, when people simply don't want something really good, because well they are people. Like Nietzsche and his Zarathustra, who came down to people and started talking to them but instead they were saying he's a fool. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20752" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6243" RevisionGUID="d441df0e-6da0-4cf1-9510-fc429e087918" CreationDate="2020-03-15T00:15:33.030" UserId="1315" Text="Is there any surviving older source that records fairies or other beings as unable to lie, or even just keeping to a strict code of honesty?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yes! there's a lot of research in this field. You would be surprise with how much information and seriou research has been done in the matter. I would like to suggest 2 in specifics. Tree and Leaf by Tolkien. Thies is a small book published in 1964, containing two works by J. R. R. Tolkien in this field of tales, folklore and so on. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lewis Hyde also talks about it in Trickster Makes This World: Mischief, Myth, and Art (1998) also re-published with the alternate subtitle: &quot;How Disruptive Imagination Creates Culture&quot; in 2008. It is specific about trickster, but has the argument that trickster are figures related to wisdom and creativity. Basically the whole idea is that Hermes, Mercurio, and other figures speaks in terms of tales or folk (or other peoples talks about them) and this is the base for the creation of world. So this bases hides some truth about we call art, history, and so on. Check it out if you find time!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20753" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5945" RevisionGUID="41621402-7c4c-4729-826c-d44d123b831f" CreationDate="2020-03-15T12:37:14.390" UserId="6379" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="God (or a genie, or whatever) promised to a guy he would grant him a wish, under the condition that the neighbour of the guy would have been granted a DOUBLE wish.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The guy thought deeply, and finally said: &quot;Let me blind to an eye&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This story is very deep, and human psychology seems to be rooted in this kind of behaviour. I am also interested in variants of this story. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With references, of course!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20754" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6236" RevisionGUID="dd936fa0-46ce-4a1c-a263-9405525d379b" CreationDate="2020-03-15T23:17:35.450" UserId="6754" Comment="added 365 characters in body" Text="**Minos** was the judge of the *third and final vote*, when the jury was composed of just **Rhadamanthys**, &#xD;&#xA; **Minos** and **Aeacus** . After the fourth judge was added, the majority in the judgement was not guaranteed, so I can only see two possibilities here:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. The vote of **Minos** (owner of the *final vote*) will decide if the result is 2-2.&#xD;&#xA; 2. **Triptolemus** is not allowed to be part of the &quot;old&quot; judges cases, neither could they participate in Triptolemus's ones. Making **Triptolemus** *the only judge over the souls of Initiates of the Mysteries.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**After Triptolemus being added to Hades' jury, is Minos the most important judge?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;*Edit*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*I'm trying to know wether I'm wrong about the meaning of the term &quot;final vote&quot; when a 4th judge appears and creates the possibility of a nonconsensus scenario.  From my own point of view, Minos was the most important judge, as it was the one who resolved a nonconsensus scenario. Since this is totally subjective, and I also may be wrong, didn't want to title this question &quot;...is Minos STILL the most important judge&quot;.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Again, I may also be confused because of the fact that Triptolemus owns his own sphere of action and there's no possibility of such a draw, as Codosaur's answer states.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20755" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6236" RevisionGUID="db688aaa-9429-4675-9bba-b44c5035060f" CreationDate="2020-03-15T23:23:21.787" UserId="6754" Comment="added 11 characters in body" Text="**Minos** was the judge of the *third and final vote*, when the jury was composed of just **Rhadamanthys**, &#xD;&#xA; **Minos** and **Aeacus** . After the fourth judge was added, the majority in the judgement was not guaranteed, so I can only see two possibilities here:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. The vote of **Minos** (owner of the *final vote*) will decide if the result is 2-2.&#xD;&#xA; 2. **Triptolemus** is not allowed to be part of the &quot;old&quot; judges cases, neither could they participate in Triptolemus's ones. Making **Triptolemus** *the only judge over the souls of Initiates of the Mysteries.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**After Triptolemus being added to Hades' jury, is Minos the most important judge?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;*Edit*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*I'm trying to know wether I'm wrong about the meaning of the term &quot;final vote&quot; when a 4th judge appears and creates the possibility of a nonconsensus scenario.  From my own point of view, Minos was the most important judge, as it was the one who resolved a nonconsensus scenario. Since this is a totally subjective oppinion, and I also may be wrong, didn't want to title this question &quot;...is Minos STILL the most important judge&quot;.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Again, I may also be confused because of the fact that Triptolemus owns his own sphere of action and there's no possibility of such a draw, as Codosaur's answer states.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20756" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="5542" RevisionGUID="f3a8f57e-42e7-4f47-8ac4-30812389e6df" CreationDate="2020-03-16T08:54:35.757" UserId="6343" Comment="99" />
  <row Id="20760" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6245" RevisionGUID="51e53bfc-bf79-4ff5-9303-5e2b6381184a" CreationDate="2020-03-16T23:28:56.610" UserId="4657" Text="A member of my family gave me a scroll with a green and red asian dragon. Is this particular dragon from a myth in asia? Or does it have a symbolic meaning?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20761" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6245" RevisionGUID="51e53bfc-bf79-4ff5-9303-5e2b6381184a" CreationDate="2020-03-16T23:28:56.610" UserId="4657" Text="Asian dragon meanings" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20762" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6245" RevisionGUID="51e53bfc-bf79-4ff5-9303-5e2b6381184a" CreationDate="2020-03-16T23:28:56.610" UserId="4657" Text="|myth-identification|mythical-creatures|symbolism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20763" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5979" RevisionGUID="de56eaf1-e9cd-45bd-87f8-8358a0ffc834" CreationDate="2020-03-16T23:53:53.383" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; tweaked some details" Text="**Herakles' Opponent(s)**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have not found any ancient references to the idea that Herakles [Heracles] invented pankration [*pancratium*]. Pausanias' *Description of Greece* 5.8.4, however, does mention that during Herakles' participation in the Olympic Games, the hero is said to have &quot;won victories at wrestling and the pankration.&quot; The Roman writer Hyginus seems to be the only source for the name of who Herakles competed against in pankration, and he tells us in his *Fabulae* 273.5, that Herakles' opponent was called **Achareus**, who is otherwise completely unknown.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyginus is prone to making mistakes, which is probably why Paulys _Real-Encyclopädie der classischen Altertumswissenschaft_ makes the point that a more famous character who was contemporaneous with Herakles might be intended in this passage, namely Aphareus. In addition to the name-similarity, Aphareus seems to be a good candidate here because of his familial connection to Pisatis, the region of Elis in which Olympia, the site of the Olympic Games, was located. Peisos [Pisus], the founder of Pisa—which was the capital city of Pisatis—was either a brother or a son of Aphareus.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the giants against whom Herakles fought together with the gods is incidentally called Pankrates, the &quot;Almighty,&quot; which may or may not have anything to do with the sport of pankration.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**A Brutal *Bandito***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;About a generation before the time of Herakles and Theseus, a Phlegyan king of Elis named **Phorbas**, lived as a killer bandit haunting the road from Phokis [Phocis] to Delphi where he would attack pilgrims on their way to the oracle of Apollon [Apollo] at Delphi and force them to engage him in different sporting competitions. He was always victorious against them, after which he would decapitate the losers and hang their heads in the branches of an oak-tree which he had made into his home and &quot;royal court of justice.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his *Images*, Philostratus the Elder says that Phorbas competed with his opponents in wrestling, foot-racing, pankration and discus-throwing. Apollon, who was Phorbas' own grandfather, killed Phorbas in a boxing match. Since Phorbas would have died either before Herakles and Theseus were born, or, at the latest, when they were babies, Philostratus does not seem to think either of these younger heroes invented pankration.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Boycotting the Isthmian Games**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pausanias mentions a few different explanations for why the people of Elis did not participate in the Isthmian Games. The most famous has it that Herakles was unable, in battle, to defeat a powerful pair of twin princes from Elis, named Eurytos [Eurytus] and Kteatos [Cteatus]. During the celebration of the Isthmian Games a sacred truce was called during which Herakles ambushed and murdered the twins. Their mother Molione, according to the *Description of Greece* 5.2.2, &quot;is said to have laid curses on her countrymen {*the people of Elis*}, should they refuse to boycott the Isthmian festival. The curses of Moli[o]ne are respected right down to the present day, and no athlete of Elis is wont to compete in the Isthmian Games.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A different account is reported in the *Description of Greece* 5.2.4, in which &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Prolaos [Prolaus], a distinguished Eleian, had two sons, **Philanthos**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Philanthus] and **Lampos** [Lampus], by his wife Lysippe. These two came&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to the Isthmian Games to compete in the boys' pankration, and one of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; them intended to wrestle. Before they entered the ring they were&#xD;&#xA;&gt; strangled or done to death in some other way by their fellow&#xD;&#xA;&gt; competitors. Hence the curses of Lysippe on the Eleians, should they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not voluntarily keep away from the Isthmian Games. But this story too&#xD;&#xA;&gt; proves on examination to be silly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Semi-Legendary Heroes**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the early 400s BC there were certain athletes who participated in the Olympic Games regarding whom claims of mythical proportions are made. **Theagenes** of Thasos, who took part in hundreds of competitions, was reputed to be a son of the god Herakles, while his opponent **Euthymos** [Euthymus] was said to be the son of the River Kaikinos [Caecinus].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding Euthymos, the *Description of Greece* 6.6.5 says that&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; though he won the prize for boxing at the seventy-fourth Olympic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; festival, [he] was not to be so successful at the next. For Theagenes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Thasos, wishing to win the prizes for boxing and for the pankration&#xD;&#xA;&gt; at the same festival, overcame Euthymos at boxing, though he had not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the strength to gain the wild olive in the pankration, because he was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; already exhausted in his fight with Euthymos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;About six generations after Herakles' death the Olympic Games were discontinued before being revived later on in the reign of Iphitos [Iphitus] of Elis. Different sporting events were gradually reintroduced into the games over the course of several Olympiads. In the *Description of Greece* 5.8.8, when the men's pankration was finally readmitted &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Lygdamis** of Syracuse overcame all who entered for the pankration.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lygdamis has his tomb near the quarries at Syracuse, and according to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Syracusans he was as big as Herakles of Thebes, though I cannot&#xD;&#xA;&gt; vouch for the statement.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**How to Rebuild a City**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many legends about Alexander the Great recounted in the tales which make up what is called the Alexander Romance. One of them refers to Alexander's destruction of Thebes after the city unsuccessfully revolted against him in 335 BC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the Romance, the Thebans then inquired of the oracle of Delphi if they would ever be able to rebuild their home. The oracle replied that Hermes, Alkeides [Alcides] and Polydeukes [Polydeuces] would work together to cause Thebes to arise anew.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later on, Alexander attended the Isthmian Games, over which he was invited to preside. Participating at the festival was a Theban named **Kleitomakhos** [Cleitomachus] who had enrolled in the wrestling, pankration and boxing competitions. After he won all the wrestling matches, Alexander promised to crown him personally and grant him any request if he conquered in the other two sports as well. The athlete achieved this and, upon coming to receive his prizes,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the herald demanded of him: &quot;Tell me your name and from what city you&#xD;&#xA;&gt; come, that I may announce you,&quot; he replied: &quot;My name is Kleitomakhos,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; but I have no city.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Presently the king addressed him: &quot;Noble young man, you are a very&#xD;&#xA;&gt; remarkable athlete. In one stadium, you have won three victories, in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wrestling, boxing, the pankration, and you have been presented by me&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with three olive crowns, yet you have no city?&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kleitomakhos answered: &quot;I had one before Alexandros [*Alexander*] was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; king, but he destroyed my fatherland.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Alexandros, knowing what he meant and what he was going to request,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; said: &quot;Let Thebes be rebuilt in honour of three gods, Hermes,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Herakles, Polydeukes, in order that this may be my free gift to you,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not your demand.&quot; So the oracle of Apollon was fulfilled...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And thus was Thebes rebuilt. I presume here that Hermes is supposed to represent wrestling, while Alkeides-Herakles stands in for pankration, and Polydeukes is the patron of boxing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Pausanias's account, the historical Kleitomakhos does indeed win in all such competitions but he does so more than a hundred years after Alexander's death. &quot;At Olympia this Kleitomakhos was the first after Theagenes of Thasos to be proclaimed victor in both boxing and the pankration&quot; (*Description of Greece* 6.15.3). The Syriac version of the Romance calls him Antimakhos [Antimachus].           " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20764" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2666" RevisionGUID="9d97b2f7-9a3c-4ff5-880c-ec4fb5b99c44" CreationDate="2020-03-17T00:30:57.977" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; tweaked some details" Text="BRIEF&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles [Heracles] never engaged in combat against any Titan, neither before nor after his deification (his becoming a god). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Olympians participated in two cosmic conflicts: *Titanomakhia*, the &quot;Titans’ War&quot;; and *Gigantomakhia*, the &quot;Gigantes’ War.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Titans’ War is supposed to have taken place tens of thousands of years before Herakles’ birth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles was, however, brought to life specifically so that he could help the Olympians defeat the Gigantes (Giants), who turned out to be the deadliest threat to them since the era of the Titans. The Gigantes’ War, during which Herakles assisted the gods, thus broke out in the hero’s lifetime, while he was still a mortal, one human generation before the Trojan War. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**CHRONOLOGY**  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Here’s a basic timeline of some of the events mentioned here, using very loose dates of when they are supposed to have happened:&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 31,400 BC: **The Titans’ War**   &#xD;&#xA;31,300 BC: Birth of the God Hermes  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 31,200 BC: Imprisonment of the Titan Prometheus   &#xD;&#xA;1500 BC: Arabos, son of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hermes (&amp; ancestor of Herakles), becomes the first king of Arabia  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1300 BC: Birth of Herakles   &#xD;&#xA;1270 BC: Herakles releases Prometheus  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1260 BC: **The Gigantes’ War**   &#xD;&#xA;1250 BC: Death of Herakles   &#xD;&#xA;1220 BC:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Trojan War&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;The author of the [Greek Mythology Link (GML)](http://www.maicar.com/GML/MythicalChronology.html) also has a chronological outline of the major events of the mythic eras. The chart from that page is displayed below, at the end of this Answer.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;BREAKDOWN&#xD;&#xA;---------&#xD;&#xA;**The Immortality and Godhood of Herakles**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`But before he could die, Zeus has rescued him by raising his spirit to Olympos, making him an immortal god.`&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The way I have always understood the story, Herakles does genuinely die, for sure. It is only after he is dead that he is raised up to Mt Olympos [Olympus] and becomes a god. This is further illustrated by somewhat of a progression of thought in ancient literature and religious cults in general but also specifically in Greek myth. In the oldest surviving written records of the final state of powerful heroes like Herakles and Akhilleus [Achilles], these characters are said by poets like Homer to simply have ended up in the Underworld after they died, just like any other mortals. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Odyssey*, during his tour of the Underworld after the end of the Trojan War, Odysseus meets up with the *shades* (afterlife phantom remains, or “ghost”-versions) of, among others, both Herakles and Akhilleus, who are miserable shadows of the men they used to be. Herakles is wandering around the Underworld with his phantom bow-and-arrow set, hunting the shades of the beasts he had killed a lifetime ago. Meanwhile Akhilleus has a conversation with Odysseus in which he confesses that he would rather be the slave of a hireling in the upper world than rule over all those who have perished and descended into this dark realm. There doesn’t seem to be any indication at all here about deification or the promise of a glamorous post-mortem destination.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In later traditions, however, the story changes. Akhilleus is envisioned enjoying a blissful existence on the Islands of the Blessed, married to the royal Colchian witch Medeia, who herself appears here as an immortal minor goddess. It is in these times that Herakles is depicted as having attained immortality, and other mighty heroes and children of deities, after dying, go to live in balmy, idyllic locations like the Elysian Fields, except that Herakles rises much higher than these earthly paradises into the celestial home of the *theoi athanatoi* [deathless gods] themselves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are legends which seem partly designed to explain Herakles’ transition from a mere mortal shade in the land of the dead to a full-fledged divinity of Mt Olympos in his own right. There were different levels of deity in the various cults of Ancient Greece, in which there were divinities who were defined merely as heroes and others as *hemitheoi* (demigods, “half-gods”) in addition to those who were full-on *theoi*, “gods.” In one story, after Herakles’ suicide, his remains could not be found on his funeral pyre, so his nephew Iolaos became the first to sacrifice to the dead hero as a *hemitheos* (demigod). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Pausanias’ *Description of Greece*, Herakles had a son named Phaistos [Phaestus] who became king of the city of Sikyon. When Phaistos first arrived at Sikyon he found that the locals were making offerings to Herakles as a hero. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Phaistos then refused to do anything of the kind, but insisted on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sacrificing to him as to a *theos*. Even at the present day [`100s AD, over a thousand years after Herakles’ death`] the Sikyonians, after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; slaying a lamb and burning the thighs upon the altar, eat some of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; meat as part of a victim given to a *theos*, while the rest they offer&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as to a hero.   &#xD;&#xA;[2.10.1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Antagonism Against Titans** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`Drinking ambrosia in the company of Zeus couldn't entirely satisfy Heracles, so he continued his heroic deeds as an immortal god. Already experienced in defeating immortal beasts, he again helps the Olympians by fighting against the monstrous children the primordial gods have spawned. As a physically strong god, he was a decisive factor in ending the rule of the Titans and ensuring that the Olympian gods would rule the world.`&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`These stories seem contradictory.`&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is some confusion that has occurred here in general about the timeline, the wars and Herakles’ participation in one of them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There actually are no ancient stories in which Herakles fights against anybody after his apotheosis (deification), apart from a mural from Athens which depicts him, as an immortal god, together with the goddess Athena and a resurrected Theseus, fighting together with the Greeks against the Persians at the Battle of Marathon in 490 BC. All of Herakles' other adventurous encounters against men, gods, giants and monstrous beasts take place while he is still alive as a mortal man. One of the main features of his story is that he *earns* his immortality by fighting and defeating the monsters and colossal obstacles that he encounters as a mortal. His most dramatic tasks are predetermined for him by Zeus and Hera when he is still a baby. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;None of the deities that this hero ever combats are Titans. There are two different occasions on which there is an aggressive confrontation between Herakles and a Titan but both of these wind up pretty fast and quite peacefully. He once fires arrows upon Helios, the Sun, out of anger at the burning heat from this god’s light, but Helios simply laughs off the attack and even bestows a gift upon this powerful archer. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then Pherecydes tells us that when Herakles was crossing the cosmic earth-encircling Okeanos River, its god, the Titan Okeanos, rose up in his waves to rock the hero’s vessel in an attempt to intimidate him. Herakles threatened to shoot the Titan with his arrows, whereupon Okeanos fearfully calmed his waters. There is also the story about Herakles tricking the Titan Atlas into holding up the edge of the sky again after having taken a break from this task.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Cosmic Wars**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By my reckoning, Titanomakhia would have occurred even before the birth of Hermes, the grandson of the Titan Atlas who became the last of the Twelve Olympians. Not very long after the end of Titanomakhia, Atlas’ brother Prometheus was imprisoned by Zeus on the Caucasus Mountains, on the border of Europe and Asia. The Roman writer Hyginus provides us with the chronology for this in his *Fabulæ* and *Astronomica*. In both of these works Hyginus says that, according to the Greek tragedian Aeschylus, Prometheus was kept in chains for thirty thousand years before his bonds were broken by none other than Herakles.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Even in ancient times, however, the Titans and the Gigantes, and the two separate wars that they waged against the inhabitants of Mt Olympos, were sometimes confused with one another. The writer most notorious for mixing up his Greek myths and their characters is Hyginus. He lists Iapetos, the father of Atlas and Prometheus, as a Gigantos [Giant], even though Iapetos is certainly a Titan. He makes the same slip-up with the Titans Koios and Astraios. This is further complicated by the participation of some primordial Gigantes in the Titans’ War. Most of these Giant soldiers seem to have sided with Kronos against Zeus in that particular contest. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One especially clear difference between the two conflicts is that the Titans were immortal (or at least almost all of them seem to have been) while the Gigantes were not. At the end of Titanomakhia the enemies of the gods had to be incarcerated in Tartaros, the deepest part of the Underworld. Gigantomakhia, on the other hand, only ended when almost all of the Gigantes were dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles and the Gigantes are, in a way, parallel characters. Both Herakles and the Giants are almost mightier than the gods. Gaia, the Earth, gives birth to the Gigantes in order for them to avenge the defeat of Kronos during Titanomakhia. This trips the gods out because there is a prophecy among them which declares that unless they employ the help of a mortal, they will not be able to defeat the Gigantes. Zeus takes this well in hand and contrives the means to create the strongest mortal hero of all, who, when he grows up, will be the suitably required ally against their enemy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus we have the story in which Zeus disguises himself as Amphitryon, the fiancé of Herakles’ mother Alkmene, in order to consort with her and sire this hero upon her. He stretches the night in which Herakles is conceived into the length of three nights, in order to produce this strongest and toughest of men. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meanwhile Gaia is scheming to obtain a special plant growing upon her surface. This plant is a drug with the power to make the Gigantes indestructible, even at mortal hands. So Zeus commands the heavenly lights, such as the Sun, Moon and Stars, not to shine while Gaia searches for this substance. Evidently she never finds it, because Herakles grows up, as do the Gigantes, and these huge enemies of the gods are after all slain by this mortal hero in collaboration with the Olympians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Precise Chronology of Gigantomakhia**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus specifies for us, in *Bibliotheka* 2.7.1-2, that Gigantomakhia broke out sometime after Herakles had completed his twelve tasks. While sailing back to Greece from an expedition at Troy, Herakles and his army landed on the Aegean island of Kos, whose locals mistook him and his men for pirates. Herakles, in retaliation, laid the island to waste, at which point the goddess Athena came to fetch him from there to take him to Phlegra, in Thrace, where the Olympians were at war against the Gigantes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After Herakles had dispensed with the Gigantes, he moved on to attack Augeias, King of the Epeians of Elis, who had broken a deal with him during the performance of one of his twelve tasks. Here we incidentally get a display of Herakles’ mortality and the fact that he is not all-powerful: he suffers a dramatic defeat at the hands of Augeias’ army generals, the twin brothers Eurytos and Kteatos, who are sometimes portrayed as monstrous or gigantic. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus goes on to say that these brothers were the strongest men alive at the time. It could be that Herakles was, during this encounter, exhausted from waging cosmic battle against the Gigantes. Additionally, the *Bibliotheka* implies that he lost this fight because he fell sick during the attack on Elis. It may nonetheless prove that these twins were stronger than Herakles, since he was only able to kill them by treacherously waylaying them during a sacred ceasefire sometime after they had defeated him (fairly uncharacteristic behaviour for him). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Carlos Parada’s GML delineation of the timeline][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Carlos Parada’s GML delineation of the timeline  &#xD;&#xA;See also [Marc Carlson’s rendition](http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/history/clam.html), as well as a [third alternative, from the Argyrou website](http://www.argyrou.net/homepage/Chronology.htm).&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/l2Unu.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20765" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6246" RevisionGUID="360589d4-bf4b-4d24-8418-070e2ff4947f" CreationDate="2020-03-17T08:08:16.123" UserId="5477" Text="I have found the voluspa and other large Old Norse texts. Then there's Beowulf. I've seen several Old Irish poems as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But what about spells and magic? Do there exist any of those online in the Original Language? For example, an Old Norse magic spell in the Old Norse language, in text format." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20766" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6246" RevisionGUID="360589d4-bf4b-4d24-8418-070e2ff4947f" CreationDate="2020-03-17T08:08:16.123" UserId="5477" Text="Do there exist any spells or ritual things / chants in Old Norse, Old Irish, or Old English online in text format?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20767" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6246" RevisionGUID="360589d4-bf4b-4d24-8418-070e2ff4947f" CreationDate="2020-03-17T08:08:16.123" UserId="5477" Text="|folklore|reference-request|magic|medieval-europe|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20768" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6247" RevisionGUID="b7cea000-6a47-4493-896b-482b5774c781" CreationDate="2020-03-17T12:24:03.877" UserId="6763" Text="Reading up on the (excellent) Gilgamesh epic, I found a note for the 11th tablet (where Uta-Napishti - the 'original' Noah) describes the seven-tiered layout of the Ark. The author appended a note stating that some scholars believe this is a poetic reflection of the seven-tiered structure of the cosmos in which the Babylonians believed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This sounds very interesting. Does anybody know a good academic source or literature reference for this seven-tiered cosmological structure?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20769" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6247" RevisionGUID="b7cea000-6a47-4493-896b-482b5774c781" CreationDate="2020-03-17T12:24:03.877" UserId="6763" Text="Literature for mesopotamian seven-tiered cosmos?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20770" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6247" RevisionGUID="b7cea000-6a47-4493-896b-482b5774c781" CreationDate="2020-03-17T12:24:03.877" UserId="6763" Text="|mesopotamia|reference-request|astrology|cosmogony|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20771" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="6236" RevisionGUID="2eb84767-2e6b-4e39-8583-791e16228644" CreationDate="2020-03-17T22:25:27.233" UserId="6754" Comment="98" />
  <row Id="20773" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="5542" RevisionGUID="b0cf7e4c-24fb-4e55-a884-8d831e81febb" CreationDate="2020-03-18T11:32:24.677" UserId="6343" Comment="99" />
  <row Id="20774" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6249" RevisionGUID="73ae9ef2-6721-43ef-bbae-2cfa79e0252a" CreationDate="2020-03-18T16:15:37.007" UserId="5511" Text="The number seven is used in the Gilgamesh epos 40 times, so it seems more like a special connotation given to the number in general. Some examples:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; You have loved the lion tremendous in strength: seven pits you dug for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him, and seven. You have loved the stallion magnificent in battle, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for him you decreed whip and spur and a thong, to gallop seven leagues&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by force and to muddy the water before he drinks;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; If I do what you desire there will be seven years of drought&#xD;&#xA;&gt; throughout Uruk when corn will be seedless husks. Have you saved grain&#xD;&#xA;&gt; enough for the people and grass for the cattle? Ishtar replied. ‘I&#xD;&#xA;&gt; have saved grain for the people, grass for the cattle; for seven years&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of seedless husks' there is grain and there is grass enough.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The next day also, in the first light, Gilgamesh lamented; seven days&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and seven nights he wept for Enkidu, until the worm fastened on him.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Only then he gave him up to the earth, for the Anunnaki, the judges,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; had seized him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An explanation of your question is detailed [here on the bottom of page 40 and page 41](https://books.google.be/books?id=lKvMeMorNBEC&amp;pg=PA41&amp;lpg=PA41&amp;dq=seven-tiered+structure+of+the+cosmos+Babylon&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=nBM4W_CrrF#v=onepage&amp;q=seven-tiered%20structure%20of%20the%20cosmos%20Babylon&amp;f=false)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20775" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6250" RevisionGUID="f703cfa3-616e-4d41-b5f0-7e66e71f4b73" CreationDate="2020-03-18T16:20:00.250" UserId="5511" Text="The Azure Dragon or Blue-Green Dragon (靑龍 Qīnglóng), or Green Dragon (蒼龍 Cānglóng), is the Dragon God of the east, and of the essence of spring. His proper name is Ao Guang (敖廣 or 敖光), and he is the patron of the East China Sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Red Dragon (赤龍 Chìlóng or 朱龍 Zhūlóng, literally &quot;Cinnabar Dragon&quot;, &quot;Vermilion Dragon&quot;) is the Dragon God of the south and of the essence of summer. He is the patron of the South China Sea and his proper name is Ao Qin (敖欽)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20776" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6251" RevisionGUID="03771c8c-8907-47e4-be20-bb0761fc2299" CreationDate="2020-03-18T20:30:02.620" UserId="6764" Text="I heard a myth when I was a child and I think it was about how a father had a prophecy that his son would die. He took it seriously and attempted to protect his son but in doing so his son died. Sort of like you cannot escape fate kind of direction. Does anyone know if this is an actual myth and what the name of the people involved were?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20777" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6251" RevisionGUID="03771c8c-8907-47e4-be20-bb0761fc2299" CreationDate="2020-03-18T20:30:02.620" UserId="6764" Text="A Greek myth where a father tries to protect his son, but the son dies anyway" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20778" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6251" RevisionGUID="03771c8c-8907-47e4-be20-bb0761fc2299" CreationDate="2020-03-18T20:30:02.620" UserId="6764" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20779" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6252" RevisionGUID="b4447ef3-fdbd-4f2e-b29b-41ba01a31dc6" CreationDate="2020-03-19T14:13:33.043" UserId="5511" Text="The most famous myth corresponding with your query would be the tale of [Daedalus &amp; Ikarus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icarus). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the period of Romanticism, Daedalus came to denote the classic artist, a skilled mature craftsman, while Icarus symbolized the romantic artist, whose impetuous, passionate and rebellious nature, as well as his defiance of formal aesthetic and social conventions, may ultimately prove to be self-destructive. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Stephen Dedalus, in Joyce's Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man envisages his future artist-self &quot;a winged form flying above the waves ... a hawk-like man flying sunward above the sea, a prophecy of the end he had been born to serve”." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20780" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4931" RevisionGUID="da2fed86-e256-4ddb-be1f-dc20e7eac754" CreationDate="2020-03-19T18:01:15.153" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="20793" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6255" RevisionGUID="1beaef92-7a30-4038-9d09-fea1cffcbc03" CreationDate="2020-03-24T18:04:05.287" UserId="6775" Text="Because she wanted to help him. She just felt she had to intervene to make sure he was okay. She had compassion towards him and didn't want him to die so therefor she saved his life so she did not feel helpless.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20797" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6258" RevisionGUID="1c2d88e9-cb9a-4095-b283-91ef5073554b" CreationDate="2020-03-25T22:24:29.867" UserId="5710" Text="According to Snorri's texts, yes, but it is the only source of such a story. He says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Loki á orrostu við Heimdall, ok verðr hvárr annars bani.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My own translation:&#xD;&#xA;&quot;*Loki goes to battle against Heimdallr, and both cause death to each other.*&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We don't know how much we can trust on Snorri's texts, since they were written long after the old norse traditions were dead, thus it is impossible to now if the earlier scandinavian people believed it, but it adds some symetry to the whole &quot;one kills another&quot; thing." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20799" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6258" RevisionGUID="68f96316-1d5a-4279-86a3-8982516253c4" CreationDate="2020-03-26T15:22:50.800" UserId="5710" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="According to Snorri's texts, yes, but it is the only source of such a story. He says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Loki á orrostu við Heimdall, ok verðr hvárr annars bani.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My own translation:&#xD;&#xA;&quot;*Loki goes to battle against Heimdallr, and both cause death to each other.*&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We don't know how much we can trust on Snorri's texts, since they were written long after the old norse traditions were dead, thus it is impossible to know if the earlier scandinavian people believed it, but it adds some symetry to the whole &quot;one kills another&quot; thing." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20800" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6259" RevisionGUID="0c0f9ad5-98c0-4453-af9d-857d1139e6a0" CreationDate="2020-03-26T15:35:18.930" UserId="5710" Text="The word appears in various sagas, including Yngling's saga and Egill Skallagrímsson's saga and are often not very nice people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is, indeed, a debate on whether the word originally comes from a root *ber-* (hence old norse *bjǫrn*, cognate with english &quot;bear&quot;) or *berr* (cognate with english &quot;bare&quot;), however, either way, the expected runic form (younger futhark, as you said correctly), would be:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **ᛒᛁᚱᛋᛁᚱᚴᛦ**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is impossible that this confusion happened even among the old norse people and different interpretations were kept by different people, making the confusion even bigger." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20804" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6262" RevisionGUID="130e4cae-b24b-4ff6-88db-83e737c67342" CreationDate="2020-03-28T10:17:04.207" UserId="6787" Text="He was the only male form about until.... &#xD;&#xA;Tumatauenga married Hine-ahu-one creating Tiki as Tane's off spring, as they were all female.&#xD;&#xA;Short version Tiki was created to kill the off spring of Tane....but Tiki got other ideas... &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hine Titama becoming Hine Nui-I-Te-Po the lady of the night is not a goddess and neither are any children of Rangi and Papa....&#xD;&#xA;Hine Nui-I-Te-Po is like the ferry man in the Greek mythology...carrying her children from Te Ao too Te Po and she was never evil.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20810" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="2221" RevisionGUID="6af13c82-b551-47d7-b859-b1ca3735f86c" CreationDate="2020-03-28T16:12:46.233" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="20811" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6263" RevisionGUID="d71929ea-8b11-4e0a-b8c8-e57a29f735c8" CreationDate="2020-03-28T22:32:30.427" UserId="6789" Text="I'm writing a story, and the beginning of the story has a woman in it that doesn't actually exist - she's a figment of some mental manipulation upon the protagonist by a magical Greek cult.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've done some googling but couldn't find what I'm looking for - which is:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. A name for this female character that doesn't sound *too* out of&#xD;&#xA;    place for a modern name (there's definitely some leeway here)&#xD;&#xA; 2. Doesn't immediately jump out as &quot;Yeah, that's definitely something&#xD;&#xA;    greek/mythological&quot;&#xD;&#xA; 3. And has some sort of connection plotwise with her role in the story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Basically, the protagonist has had their memories tampered with, with the idea of turning them into an assassin of a government official.  The female character is a fake memory/creation to help &quot;smooth over&quot; the critical memories - giving the main protagonist a fake sounding board and a source of suggestions for courses of actions.  So anything along the lines of:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Tool or Toolmaker&#xD;&#xA; - Lies or Figment&#xD;&#xA; - Artificial Creation&#xD;&#xA; - Gift&#xD;&#xA; - Two-Edged Sword&#xD;&#xA; - Weapon&#xD;&#xA; - etc&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any ideas for a female name that would work?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20812" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6263" RevisionGUID="d71929ea-8b11-4e0a-b8c8-e57a29f735c8" CreationDate="2020-03-28T22:32:30.427" UserId="6789" Text="Greek female name associated with gifts, a tool, a weapon, or a lie - must sound relatively 'normal' for a modern name" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20813" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6263" RevisionGUID="d71929ea-8b11-4e0a-b8c8-e57a29f735c8" CreationDate="2020-03-28T22:32:30.427" UserId="6789" Text="|greek|names|goddesses|maiden-goddesses|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20814" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6214" RevisionGUID="4a2de9e7-789c-4f0f-a6e7-ab2fd6e698cb" CreationDate="2020-03-29T00:03:50.603" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="20815" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6264" RevisionGUID="7bfa80b3-0b53-4c58-85b2-524f260f5f8a" CreationDate="2020-03-29T05:45:14.050" UserId="6791" Text="In abrahamic religions, there seem to be several versions of the giant sea beast that may (or not) carry the Earth on its back... I am trying to figure out what the original version of this myth is. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In some versions the &quot;terrestrial&quot; behemoth carries the Earth and is itself carried by the &quot;aquatic&quot; leviathan, and in others the whale-like bahamut (same as behemoth?) carries the Earth directly. Sometimes leviathan is a flying serpent that doesn't carry anything...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do these myths derive from an older known tale?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20816" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6264" RevisionGUID="7bfa80b3-0b53-4c58-85b2-524f260f5f8a" CreationDate="2020-03-29T05:45:14.050" UserId="6791" Text="Untangling Bahamut, Behemoth and Leviathan" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20817" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6264" RevisionGUID="7bfa80b3-0b53-4c58-85b2-524f260f5f8a" CreationDate="2020-03-29T05:45:14.050" UserId="6791" Text="|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20818" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6264" RevisionGUID="2ce5a079-14eb-4f0a-9175-44852bf5ee08" CreationDate="2020-03-29T05:51:33.463" UserId="6791" Comment="added 176 characters in body" Text="In abrahamic religions, there seem to be several versions of the giant sea beast that may (or not) carry the Earth on its back... I am trying to figure out what the original version of this myth is. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In some versions the &quot;terrestrial&quot; behemoth carries the Earth and is itself carried by the &quot;aquatic&quot; leviathan, and in others the whale-like bahamut carries the Earth directly. Sometimes leviathan is a flying serpent that doesn't carry anything...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do these myths derive from an older known tale?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Edit: there is apparently also an islamic version where Nun/Lutiaya is a whale that carries the Earth. I imagine bahamut is a translation of behemoth and lutiaya is a translation of leviathan." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20819" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6265" RevisionGUID="3ab2fde1-62b8-41a2-bd93-6714c2aa1165" CreationDate="2020-03-29T15:05:12.487" UserId="5511" Text="Best two-edged name I can think of is IEZABEL (Ἰεζάβελ): Greek form of Hebrew Iyzebel (&quot;Ba'al exalts,&quot; &quot;unchaste,&quot; or &quot;without cohabitation&quot;), but meaning &quot;chaste, intact.&quot;. Modern-day form would be Isabelle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gift:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - CALLIDORA, composed of kallos &quot;beauty&quot; and doron &quot;gift&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - EUDORA,  eu &quot;good&quot; and doron &quot;gift&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - ISIDORA, &quot;gift of Isis&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - RHEBEKKA, Greek form of Hebrew Ribqah, meaning &quot;ensnarer.&quot;,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - KASSANDRA: meaning &quot;she who entangles men.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - MEDEIA: meaning &quot;cunning&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - PERSEPHONE: persô &quot;person; human being&quot; and phonos &quot;murderer, slayer,&quot; hence &quot;person-slayer.&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20820" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6266" RevisionGUID="0be369c0-1181-4884-b7d5-80c7ebf89f54" CreationDate="2020-03-29T15:21:20.183" UserId="5511" Text="Behemoth and Leviathan are both of Babylonian origin, where they are creatures of the primal Chaos, Behemoth of the Earth and male, Leviathan of the Ocean Deep and female. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some historians claim Behemoth, derived from Hebrew b'hemoth, usually taken as plural of intensity of b'hemah &quot;beast.&quot;, is perhaps a folk etymology of Egyptian pehemau, literally &quot;water-ox,&quot; the name for the hippopotamus. Bahamut is the Arabic form of Behemoth. However, the original biblical Behemoth never appeared as a fish.A reshaping of its nature must have occurred in Arab storytelling, some time in the pre-islamic period.One proposed scenario is that a pair of beasts from the bible were confused with each other; the behemoth mis-assigned to the fish, and the aquatic leviathan to the bull.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Leviathan's source is in prebiblical Mesopotamian myth, especially that of the sea monster in the Ugaritic myth of Baal. It's another name for Yam, ancient West Semitic deity who ruled the oceans, rivers, lakes, and underground springs. He also played an important role in the Baal myths recorded on tablets uncovered at Ugarit, which say that at the beginning of time Yamm was awarded the divine kingship by El, the chief god of the pantheon. One day, Yamm’s messengers requested that the gods surrender Baal to be a bond servant to Yamm. El finally agreed, but Baal refused to go and instead engaged Yamm in battle. After a furious fight, in which the craftsman Kothar supplied Baal with two special weapons, Yamm was finally slain and the kingship given to Baal. According to some scholars, Yamm was the same deity as Lotan (Hebrew: Leviathan), who was represented as a hydralike dragon or serpent." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20821" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6267" RevisionGUID="691cb50f-5b1d-4d96-a474-b64b24542813" CreationDate="2020-03-29T23:09:35.983" UserId="6792" Text="Basically you'd have to modernize an existing name to your purpose.&#xD;&#xA;*(F) = Female&#xD;&#xA;*(M) = Male&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod, Theogony 211ff (trans. Evelyn White; Greek epic 8th or 7th century B.C.):[3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And Nyx (F)(Night) bare hateful Moros (M)(Doom) and black Ker (F)(Violent Death) and Thanatos (M)(Death), and she bare Hypnos (M)(Sleep) and the tribe of Oneiroi(M)(Dreams). And again the goddess murky Nyx, though she lay with none, bare Momos (M)(Blame) and painful Oizys(F)(Misery), and the Hesperides(F) ... Also she bare the Moirai(F)(Fates) and the ruthless avenging Keres (F)(Death Fates) ... Also deadly Nyx bare Nemesis (F)(Envy) to afflict mortal men, and after her, Apate (F)(Deceit) and Philotes (F)(Friendship) and hateful Geras (M)(Old Age) and hardhearted Eris (F)(Strife)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20822" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6268" RevisionGUID="b24700a5-b3d1-4bcb-9f07-40c5866a5e59" CreationDate="2020-03-30T12:45:27.917" UserDisplayName="user6794" Text="Please give me solid scientific evidence about Vetalas. Tha is all i ask." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20823" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6268" RevisionGUID="b24700a5-b3d1-4bcb-9f07-40c5866a5e59" CreationDate="2020-03-30T12:45:27.917" UserDisplayName="user6794" Text="According to Hindu Mythology, Vetalas are creatures like Medusa. Wot is it about Vetalas tha they are similar to Medusa?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20824" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6268" RevisionGUID="b24700a5-b3d1-4bcb-9f07-40c5866a5e59" CreationDate="2020-03-30T12:45:27.917" UserDisplayName="user6794" Text="|mythical-creatures|hindu|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20825" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6269" RevisionGUID="d26331e1-c1da-4811-af72-7f36aa879ce0" CreationDate="2020-03-30T19:46:56.010" UserId="5715" Text="In most tales, as in Rumpelstiltskin, there is no reason given for fairies or goblins wanting to take human children. I would like to note, though, that in some tales similar to Rumpelstiltskin, the goblin actually wants the girl herself. In the English &quot;Duffy and the Devil&quot; the Devil wants to carry a girl off (presumably to Hell) and in the German &quot;Doubleturk&quot; the goblin wants to marry the girl. (Other Rumpelstiltskin variants are [here][1].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a lot of changeling myths, it's suggested that fairies look for beautiful children, perhaps because they want good breeding stock. (See &quot;[The changeling of Spornitz][2].&quot;) In these tales they may treat the children as their own and even transform them into beings like them. The Brothers Grimm mentioned nixies who were originally stolen human children (&quot;[Nixie Changelings from the Saal River][3].&quot;)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Very frequently, fairies or goblins want human servants, as in &quot;The Daughter of Peter de Cabinam&quot; (from the 13th century) and &quot;[The Fairy Dwelling on Selena Moor][4].&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The idea of fairies stealing away humans was very much a danger in European folklore. Fairies found humans to be desirable, whether for labor, or beauty, or another reason. I believe it was a way to explain sudden deaths and illnesses. It was not something to be explained so much as something to be avoided - by protecting pregnant women and newborns, by not angering the fairies, not intruding on their domain (like mushroom circles) and warding them off from your own home by hanging horseshoes over doors or other practices.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If I may put in a shameless plug, here is a list where I tried to collect as many examples as I could: &quot;[Why do Fairies Steal People Away][5]?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0500.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/gerchange.html#BartschChangelingOfSpornitz&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/gerchange.html#GrimmTheNixie&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/swc2/swc216.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://writinginmargins.weebly.com/home/why-do-fairies-steal-people-away" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20826" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6270" RevisionGUID="534b3eec-3fc3-4b5e-99e9-85a39c1c405f" CreationDate="2020-03-31T05:25:06.443" UserId="6795" Text="Since when does Valhalla exist in Norse mythology ? Like (almost) all **Indo-Europeans** the Vikings believed in a cycle of *life*, *death* and *rebirth*. Valhalla contradicts this fundamental content of Norse mythology a bit. So was Valhalla introduced in a late 'stratum' of mythology or how did the concept of Valhalla develop ?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20827" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6270" RevisionGUID="534b3eec-3fc3-4b5e-99e9-85a39c1c405f" CreationDate="2020-03-31T05:25:06.443" UserId="6795" Text="Since when does Valhalla exist in Norse mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20828" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6270" RevisionGUID="534b3eec-3fc3-4b5e-99e9-85a39c1c405f" CreationDate="2020-03-31T05:25:06.443" UserId="6795" Text="|norse|european-folklore|valhalla|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20829" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6271" RevisionGUID="4efe0e2b-b856-4ee6-a67d-27cc0d2071fc" CreationDate="2020-03-31T05:49:36.243" UserId="6795" Text="Mythology changed over the centuries, especially under christian influence. A large crack can be observed around 900-1000 CE when large parts of Europe were christianized, i.e. Sweden (Harald Bluetooth), Norway (Harald I. Fairhair), Vladimir I. (Kievian Rus), .... &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Up from this time mythological beings that personify the psychological archetype of *Anima*, the most fundamental female archetype, like *fairies* and *elves* received evil charactert traits in mytholgoy, that they did not possess before. For example the *elf shot* also appeared in mythology not before the 10th century CE.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The birth of changelings (disability) and the stealing of babies (possibly a reference to a miscarriage) is a very female topic and so with the beginning of the (male dominated) christian era the 'guilt' for these events was blamed on beings (fairies, elves,...)  that personify the most fundamental female archetype, the *Anima*. Very likely this was not the case in the pre-christian era.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So basically the impetus for fairies to steal children (trigger a miscarriage) or for elves to hurt humans by *elf-shots* is a late christian insertion into mythology (blaming the guilt for these events on fairies and elves)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20830" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6271" RevisionGUID="e4b08e98-5a52-49bd-a5a4-7a372b28ad35" CreationDate="2020-03-31T05:55:43.763" UserId="6795" Comment="content" Text="Mythology changed over the centuries, especially under christian influence. A large crack can be observed around 900-1000 CE when large parts of Europe were christianized, i.e. Sweden (Harald Bluetooth), Norway (Harald I. Fairhair), Vladimir I. (Kievian Rus), .... &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Up from this time mythological beings that personify the psychological archetype of *Anima*, the most fundamental female archetype, like *fairies* and *elves* received evil charactert traits in mytholgoy, that they did not possess before. For example the *elf shot* also appeared in mythology not before the 10th century CE.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The birth of changelings (disability) and the stealing of babies (possibly a reference to a miscarriage) is a very female topic and so with the beginning of the (male dominated) christian era the 'guilt' for these events was blamed on beings (fairies, elves,...)  that personify the most fundamental female archetype, the *Anima*. Very likely this was not the case in the pre-christian era.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So basically the impetus for fairies to steal children (trigger a miscarriage) or for elves to hurt humans by *elf-shots* is a late christian insertion into mythology (blaming the guilt for these events on fairies and elves)&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;In the **native pre-christian Indo-European mythology** the guilt for events that were harmful to society was not blamed predominantely on women because a fundamental concept of the native pre-christian Indo-European mythology is that the universe is in a constant **balance and order** (*Rta* (Vedic), *Veritas* (Roman), *Urda* (Norse), ...)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With christianization the Indo-European priestesses and shamen turned into witches and what happened to witches is well known.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20831" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6272" RevisionGUID="fdc00a7d-c643-451c-9926-49317e470720" CreationDate="2020-03-31T06:12:46.840" UserId="6795" Text="The **Indo-Europeans** did not only share a common language, they also shared a common mythology and worldview. You will find much more similarities when comparing Hindu and i.e. Norse, Baltic, Welsh and other pre-christian European mythologies. I.e. all Indo-Europeans believe in a cycle of *life*, *death* and *rebirth* cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_mythology#Otherworld (this wikipedia article has severe quality problems, only as a side note)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With the spreading of monotheism this unifying worldview was disrupted, because of Muslim influence even the Hindu worldview is not purely Indo-European anymore, i.e. the **non-dualistic concept of universal balance and order** *Brahman* turned into the male (dualistic) deity Brahma (strong monotheistic influence). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Indo-European names for the non-dualistic concept of universal balance and order are *Rta* (Vedic), Ve**rita**s (Roman), U**rda** (Norse).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Linguistics* is an important tool in the attempt to reconstruct the (proto-) Indo-European mythology, however it is also often too interpretable " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20832" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6273" RevisionGUID="3c4ccb11-b144-4967-be23-e8f20b13d341" CreationDate="2020-03-31T06:30:03.303" UserId="6795" Text="Apart from christianity, serpents and dragons are affirmative symbolic beings, i.e. serpents symbolize renewal, healing and rebirth (skin-sloughing of serpents, Ouroboros).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Norse mythology, that is a mythology of Indo-European descent, what do dragons symbolize for i.e. the Vikings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dragons and dragon ornamentation appear i.e. on ships, stave churches, ..." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20833" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6273" RevisionGUID="3c4ccb11-b144-4967-be23-e8f20b13d341" CreationDate="2020-03-31T06:30:03.303" UserId="6795" Text="Dragons and serpents in Norse and Indo-European mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20834" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6273" RevisionGUID="3c4ccb11-b144-4967-be23-e8f20b13d341" CreationDate="2020-03-31T06:30:03.303" UserId="6795" Text="|norse|dragons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20835" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6274" RevisionGUID="2616ca0e-e6ef-40db-b885-372b128b2230" CreationDate="2020-03-31T06:42:31.990" UserId="6795" Text="Zeus and Sarpedon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarpedon_(Trojan_War_hero)), note that Zeus is the highest deity in the Greek pantheon. For the reasons of his inability to save Sarpedon cf. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; To the Moirai (Moirae, Fates) the might of Zeus must bow; and by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Immortals' purpose all these things had come to pass, or by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Moirai's ordinance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moirai&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Moirai and the Horae are children of Zeus and Themis. Themis symbolizes a **universal balance and order** that can never be broken, not even by Zeus :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Themis" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20836" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6275" RevisionGUID="108f8c00-5c2a-465f-9794-10f5745c1c42" CreationDate="2020-03-31T06:51:10.913" UserId="6795" Text="The highest deity in the male trias in various Indo-European mythologies has a similar name :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Slavic Perun (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perun)&#xD;&#xA; - Baltic Perkunas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perk%C5%ABnas)&#xD;&#xA; - ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;, the female trias is always the *Fates* (nornir, horae, parcae, ...)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The problem is that the mythological function of these highest male deities is massively tainted by later christian influence so it is hard to tell if any mythological tradition about these deities is native (original) or not (modified later) " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20837" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5443" RevisionGUID="4bc58fa5-a7dd-401a-834b-24685cf7994e" CreationDate="2020-03-31T10:17:25.923" UserDisplayName="user5459" Comment="added 94 characters in body" Text="Are there myths that feature such beings?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: If all deities are gods, then the question is clear. No gods." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20840" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6278" RevisionGUID="a0dbaabf-5149-42a1-8a49-350b86c3bb34" CreationDate="2020-03-31T14:35:08.523" UserId="6796" Text="It is a bit challenging to delimit the quest of this question. &#xD;&#xA;For instant, there are lists (thulas) of serpents, which may, and may not be considered dragons. The mythological Jörmundgandr (&quot;the world serpent&quot;), for instant, I find Jörmungandr reflected in the most classic dragon of all Norse, Fafnir, because of the name, quite simply signifying 'Fathom'. He's much known as he also is found in the German Niebelungenlied, that Richard Wagner his Ring-cycle upon. It seems that Dragons are originally human. Well, I'm not interpreting either Æsir, Vanir, Dwarves, Youthunns, or Elves of the dark and of the light, as not human (double negation there). Fafnir's fate is profoundly reflected not merely in Wagner's work, but also in the works of Tolkien, particularly regarding the ring, Andvaranaut. It is this ring's curse, or Fafnir's obsession with the external alchemy related to the Ring of Andvari, that turns him into the dragon. In this context the Dragon is quite clearly a transformation due to perversion and obsession. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If the Norse serpents are part of the deliberation here, even Oðinn is a dragon of sorts, as he turns into Bólwork, in order to get hold of the entheogenic compound brew, relating to the greeting (skål!), aka the peace between the Vanir and Æsir, according to Snorre Sturlasson, the main contenders of the Trojan war, fascilitated by King Lear aka Youthunn Ægir. It seems to me that the ornamental dragon-serpents of ships and churches are more related to this mytheme, than that of Fafnir. This mytheme is reflected in the Kerukeion aka Caduceus, the biblical Nehushtan of Moses, and the old Sumerian Ningishida.. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ultimate viking hero, with a name that could be translated as Arrow's-Edge, is famed for having battled with the sea-monster Kraken, often likened to Chthulu, or Hafgufa, the mother of all sea-monsters. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Norse heraldic and ornamental dragons are called Lindworms, interpreted as the Norse name for dragons. Fafnir is called a Lindworm in the Saga-litterature. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I hope this was a bit to work on." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20841" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6278" RevisionGUID="8c3a3ac1-043b-4c34-9b22-0753845d0a14" CreationDate="2020-03-31T15:28:45.280" UserId="6796" Comment="added 623 characters in body" Text="It is a bit challenging to delimit the quest of this question. &#xD;&#xA;For instant, there are lists (thulas) of serpents, which may, and may not be considered dragons. The mythological Jörmundgandr (&quot;the world serpent&quot;), for instant, I find Jörmungandr reflected in the most classic dragon of all Norse, Fafnir, because of the name, quite simply signifying 'Fathom'. He's much known as he also is found in the German Niebelungenlied, that Richard Wagner his Ring-cycle upon. It seems that Dragons are originally human. Well, I'm not interpreting either Æsir, Vanir, Dwarves, Youthunns, or Elves of the dark and of the light, as not human (double negation there). Fafnir's fate is profoundly reflected not merely in Wagner's work, but also in the works of Tolkien, particularly regarding the ring, Andvaranaut. It is this ring's curse, or Fafnir's obsession with the external alchemy related to the Ring of Andvari, that turns him into the dragon. In this context the Dragon is quite clearly a transformation due to perversion and obsession. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If the Norse serpents are part of the deliberation here, even Oðinn is a dragon of sorts, as he turns into Bólwork, in order to get hold of the entheogenic compound brew, relating to the greeting (skål!), aka the peace between the Vanir and Æsir, according to Snorre Sturlasson, the main contenders of the Trojan war, fascilitated by King Lear aka Youthunn Ægir. It seems to me that the ornamental dragon-serpents of ships and churches are more related to this mytheme, than that of Fafnir. This mytheme is reflected in the Kerukeion aka Caduceus, the biblical Nehushtan of Moses, and the old Sumerian Ningishida.. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ultimate viking hero, with a name that could be translated as Arrow's-Edge, is famed for having battled with the sea-monster Kraken, often likened to Chthulu, or Hafgufa, the mother of all sea-monsters. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Norse heraldic and ornamental dragons are called Lindworms, interpreted as the Norse name for dragons. Fafnir is called a Lindworm in the Saga-litterature. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Six Lindworms are mentioned as the offspring of Gráfvitnir (Grave-witness, Grave-visitor, or grave-wolf): &#xD;&#xA;Góinn, Móinn, Grábakr, Gráfvölluðr, Ófnir and Sváfnir. &#xD;&#xA;My suggestion to their meaning is: &#xD;&#xA;The (subtle) intestinal life-force of (sacrificial) animals - Gó(r)inn.&#xD;&#xA;The (subtle) interior of arable land - Mó(r)inn.&#xD;&#xA;The foul force in shit or leftovers - Grábakr.&#xD;&#xA;The rolling force coming from burial mounds - Gráfvölluðr.&#xD;&#xA;The force of descendance - Ófnir.&#xD;&#xA;The force of ascendance - Sváfnir.  &#xD;&#xA;This is quite tentative, based on my own fragmentary research and dubious competence in Norse language and cult. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I hope this was a bit to work on." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20842" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2050" RevisionGUID="0142e23a-80be-4623-bc36-9ff036122d0e" CreationDate="2020-03-31T19:40:05.617" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="If *ein Arímoisin* can be translated &quot;among Arimoi&quot; then it would appear that Hesiod is naming the tribe or nation—the Arimoi—among whom Ekhidna [Echidna] is keeping guard rather than necessarily her geographical location, although location might be implied therefrom. As for what she is guarding, I would try to connect her to the oracle at Delphi based on some passages from other mythographers. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Immediately after the Theogonic line in view, Hesiod supplies the genealogical information on the most popular monsters in Greek myth, roughly half of whom are the offspring of Ekhidna by her husband or mate Typhoeus, a cosmic fire-breathing storm-giant. Hesiod goes on to finish breaking down the divine family tree at this level and narrating the conflict between Zeus and his father the Titan Kronos before eventually getting back to Typhoeus, who is brought forth by Gaia to avenge Kronos. Typhoeus ultimately fails, however, and like his half-brother Titans he too is cast into the Underworld storm-pit of Tartaros, which storm-pit is actually the giant's own father. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus' version of the contest between Zeus and Typhoeus is particularly striking for its remarkable feature of having Zeus, at some point, veer extremely close to actually being destroyed by Typhoeus. In his *Bibliotheka* Apollodorus says that Typhoeus dwelt in something called the Korykian [Corycian] Cave in Kilikia [Cilicia], Asia Minor. This mythographer's placement of this cave in so far away a corner of the Mediterranean Basin is surprising considering that the cave's name is typically associated with Mt Parnassos, and the city and oracle of Delphi in the Phokis region of Greece. In his book *Drakon: Dragon Myth and Serpent Cult in the Greek and Roman Worlds*, Daniel Ogden muses that it might have something to do with a Hittite *Chaoskampf* or combat myth being the origin of the contest between the chief Greek storm-god and this immense serpentine creature.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus continues by saying that in the vicinity of Mt Kasios on the border of what is now Syria and Turkey, after a furious battle between Zeus and Typhoeus, the giant managed to incapacitate Zeus by coiling around him and even tearing out the sinews from the god's hands and feet, presumably paralysing Zeus at least for a time. He then deposited the wounded deity in this Kilikian lair of his: the Korykian Cave. Now either Typhoeus did not have the ability to kill Zeus or he was being a typical *James Bond* movie villain, buzzing off to go do something else while leaving his arch-nemesis in the custody of some henchman or other. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whatever the giant's intention had been, he is described as having carried Zeus on his shoulders across the sea to Kilikia, where he deposited him in the cave. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Likewise he put away the sinews there also, hidden in a bearskin, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he set to guard them the *drakaina* Delphyne, a maiden who was half&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beast. But [*Zeus' sons*] Hermes and Aigipan stole the sinews and&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;while nobody was looking, reconnected their father with these body parts. Zeus was able shortly afterwards to vanquish Typhoeus for good.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sir James George Frazer's translation of this passage says that Zeus was carried *through* the sea. Maybe I'm making much of a muchness out of that but then what if therefore the Korykian Cave (and ultimately the Arimoi?) should be located underwater? It would make sense of the form which Aigipan is said to have taken for this rescue mission, changing himself into the &quot;Sea-Goat,&quot; a goat whose hind quarters were a fish-tail, which creature was afterwards placed in the sky, in his honour, as the constellation Capricorn.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This location for the Korykian Cave may create other problems, though, as other writers, such as Callimachus, derive the origin of the name Delphi from the *drakaina* Delphyne, who in this version of the myth replaces the more famous dragon Python. In the Homeric Hymn to Apollon [Apollo], Typhoeus is called Typhaon, he is the fatherless son of an enraged Hera, who deposits him, after his birth, with the evil *drakaina* dwelling at the site of Delphi, apparently none other than Delphyne. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Apollon makes his début at the site, he slays the drakaina and thus founds the Pythian oracle through which the land's inhabitants can offer him sacrifices. Based on the connection between Delphyne and Typhoeus in the *Bibliotheka*, [Aaron Atsma](http://www.theoi.com/Ther/DrakainaPython.html) determines Delphyne to be the same personage as Ekhidna. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Robert Graves' interpretation of all this in his book *The Greek Myths* is a bit more complicated, as he insists that Typhaon is here to be equated with (a definitively male) Python, who then becomes the consort of Delphyne.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Typically the Korykian Cave appears on Mt Parnassos in order to connect Apollon's dragon-slaying effort with the establishment of his shrine in the major city which is founded there (usually built by his son Delphos or by Apollon's cousin likewise named Delphos).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An alternate solution might be to say that the Arimoi, whoever/whatever they are, originally lived on Mt Parnassos. The gods then placed Ekhidna-Python-Delphyne in the Korykian Cave to watch over the young Typhoeus/Typhaon and to guard that primordial oracular shrine on behalf of the site's owner. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his *Eumenides* the playwright Aeschylus says that the shrine was owned first by Gaia and then by Gaia's daughter Themis and then by Themis' sister Phoibe [Phoebe] who then bequeathed it to her grandson Apollon. In 10.6.6 of his *Description of Greece*, Pausanias specifically says that Gaia installed Python as the guardian of the place. Hera would then have co-opted Python's services to create a nesting-cave for her Giant dragon-like offspring Typhaon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This identification and interpretation of Arima is however in disagreement with other ancient writers like Strabo, whose [elaborate article on the subject](http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/13D*.html#4.6) furnishes various alternate explanations. And then of course it circles back to contradict Hesiod because, unlike Python and Delphyne, Ekhidna is explicitly stated in your *Theogony* quote to be ageless and undying. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20843" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6279" RevisionGUID="29fd00a7-05ad-4ade-a5c5-07023173226a" CreationDate="2020-04-01T03:04:39.820" UserId="6796" Text="These lists of the nine worlds are modern speculations/generalisations. I would like to see elder literature or source material support this. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Don't forget that the bardic and scholarly tradition peculiar, somehow, to the Northern Islands (Orkneyar etc.) and Iceland, left Norway, and Scandinavia because of resistance against the novel feudalism of King Harald of the House of Ynglings, in alliance with the House of Wessex, King Athelstan, in England, and the Liudolfings, who will become known as the Imperial Ottonian dynasty. Snorre Sturlasson defend the particular intercultural syncretism of the Norse. He explains the relationships between the Norse scaldic tradition with that of Vergil's Aeneid, in particular, yet also the Iliad. He claim that Oðinn's son Viðarø is Aeneas. Of course Snorre is familiar with the Pythagorean practice of metempsychosis that Vergil teaches. Oðinn may thus be avatar of both King Priam, as he claim, and of Angxises, as well as King Memnon of Ethiopia, as he reckognizes the Prince Tror of Ethiopia as Þor, the guy with the hammer. Wonder why this attestations of Snorre is ridiculed and regarded vicarous?! At first I thought that Snorre's claim that Oðinn is (the avatar/metempsychosis of) King Priam, was conflicting with him identifying Viðareu with Aeneas of the Aeneid, the epic poem, because Aeneas' father is Angxises. Oðinn is father of Viðareu. Now I find it plausible that Snorre is very well aware of how Angxises and Aeneas is an intended mirroring of Priam and Hector, expressed in the Iliad: Poseidon, God of the Sea, while observes the fatal situation Aeneas is in (while fighting with Achilles, who next will slay Hector), urges the other gods that they should rescue Aeneas, &quot;For&quot;, he says, &quot;it is appointed to Aeneas to escape... thus shall mighty Aeneas, be born in the afterlife of his children's children, rule over the Trojans once again... the Romans. Vergil indicate, interestingly, that Aeneas was born again as Marcus Claudius Marcellus, who might have become the first emperor, had he not died of the pestilence that his uncle Octavian survived from, who became Emperor Augustus son of God. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other stratas of the Norse Sagas, makes it even more evident that supernatural figures are figures of speech relating certain peoples and their manners. Youthunns and Elves and Goðs are like the Vanir and Asians, people who are practicing different kinds of avatarism. They are not either mundane or cosmic. What brings them all together, is the secret of Amphictyonia. In the Norse Skaldskaparmál, it is the Youþunn Ægir, aka King Lear, who fascilitates the symposium that brings peace, at least the Greet, between the Greek Achae, aka Danoii, who is the Vanii, and the Hittite Trojans, who is the Æsian. Prechalchedonian Christianity was pro-actively syncretistic. That changes dramatically with feudalism, and the totalitarian monopolisation of sanctified life, making the Benedictine Rule the only rule. This only comes about with the emergence of Charlemagne as Emperor. The Norse culture flourish, from the Black Sea to Iceland. The fall of Rome is about western Europe, not Eastern Europe. The Salian Franks, through their Merovingian anchestors, claim the true inheritors of the Roman Empire, at the moment the true Roman Empire in Constantinople is more and more ruled by empresses and evenuchs, caring more for philosophy and art than war, nourishing increasingly cordial relations with the golden era Khalifat centered on Bagdad, and the Jewish Khaganate of Khazaria. The too high status of women in Byzants is the reason why the Salian Empire emerges! It is very sad that it is the spread of this rather strange and perverted form of christianity most people tend to think is christianization; not that the Benedictine Rule was in any way constructed in order to become the instrument of oppression that it became. Snorre Sturlason is quite clear, the scholarly skalds of his lineage are not pagan, although he admits that peoples in remote places resort to pagan customs as they forget the bigger picture, how it all connects to the Greek and Semittic, as well as the to the shamans of the Hunic confederates. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dwarves is to me a huge mystery. Our culturally dependent default notions of them must be wiped out. I think they, as much as Joþunns and Elves, presents a certain sphere of existance in the cyrcle of becomings conferring both the Hebrew concept of Gilgul, the metempsychosis of Pythagoras, or the Tibetan Srid pa'i 'khor lo. The etymology of dwarves has made me see them as protector spirits, possibly particularly related to oracular practices (as that of Delphi); more specifically I relate them to Time. The hours of the night are conceived of as Watchers, their etymology runs in that direction. Thus I see them as the biblical Egregors - ἐγρήγοροι (koine Greek), and Aírs - עִיר(Hebrew). That's why they are dark-elves. In the Norse corpus some Dwarves' names are reckognized in the names of mythological animals,like the harts Durethrough, Dwellinn, Duneaíreu and Dóinn  and even items, like Draupnir.  I find it significant. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20845" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6281" RevisionGUID="1a68644c-dd3b-4a78-9265-d593738f4b30" CreationDate="2020-04-02T03:01:26.837" UserId="6699" Text="I'm seeking names of deities who embody the values of natural order, justice, or wisdom/knowledge.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've already gone through the ancient Greek ones, listed below, but I would like different sounding names from other cultures, such as the Americas, Africa, Oceania, and the rest of Europe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kybélê&#xD;&#xA;Díkē&#xD;&#xA;Dikaiosýnē&#xD;&#xA;Eunomía&#xD;&#xA;Korýbantes&#xD;&#xA;Praxidíkē&#xD;&#xA;Nómos&#xD;&#xA;Athēnâ&#xD;&#xA;Thémis" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20846" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6281" RevisionGUID="1a68644c-dd3b-4a78-9265-d593738f4b30" CreationDate="2020-04-02T03:01:26.837" UserId="6699" Text="Who are the deities of natural order, justice or wisdom?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20847" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6281" RevisionGUID="1a68644c-dd3b-4a78-9265-d593738f4b30" CreationDate="2020-04-02T03:01:26.837" UserId="6699" Text="|norse|mesopotamia|native-american|pantheon|polynesian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20849" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6283" RevisionGUID="9db631d5-96e5-4617-952a-21b243084690" CreationDate="2020-04-03T03:22:32.340" UserId="5347" Text="Did the goddess in Norse mythology fight during Ragnarok? Everything I have read is about the gods fighting." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20850" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6283" RevisionGUID="9db631d5-96e5-4617-952a-21b243084690" CreationDate="2020-04-03T03:22:32.340" UserId="5347" Text="Norse goddeses at Ragnarok" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20851" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6283" RevisionGUID="9db631d5-96e5-4617-952a-21b243084690" CreationDate="2020-04-03T03:22:32.340" UserId="5347" Text="|norse|ragnarok|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20853" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6285" RevisionGUID="e4989709-6547-440a-8e63-9d4718cc2f04" CreationDate="2020-04-03T15:04:38.500" UserId="5710" Text="Unfortunately, almost all we know about it is written in texts that were written after the viking age, so it is difficult to say that we have the full picture of what old norse people believed. No text mention the goddesses during *Ragnarǫk* , the only gods that are mentioned are Odin, who fights against Fenrir; Frey, who fights against Surt; Thor, who fights against the Midgard Serpent; and (according to Snorri), Heimdall, whi fights against Loki. And that's pretty much all we know about gods during the &quot;God's fate&quot;." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20857" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6287" RevisionGUID="23bda94a-6a93-4755-9b36-fc348fee92f3" CreationDate="2020-04-03T18:03:39.183" UserId="6804" Text="Can any kind souls please provide an easily starting point for Aztec Myths and Legends. What I’ve heard of it is interesting, but the sources I can find, I feel, heavily rely on prior knowledge of the readers/viewers. Any online sources would be much appreciated. Merci Beaucoup!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20858" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6287" RevisionGUID="23bda94a-6a93-4755-9b36-fc348fee92f3" CreationDate="2020-04-03T18:03:39.183" UserId="6804" Text="Any Good Sources for Aztec Mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20859" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6287" RevisionGUID="23bda94a-6a93-4755-9b36-fc348fee92f3" CreationDate="2020-04-03T18:03:39.183" UserId="6804" Text="|source-request|aztec|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20860" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6288" RevisionGUID="8a832da1-f542-4bf7-8c6d-5a1078ca06ab" CreationDate="2020-04-03T18:55:19.493" UserId="6808" Text="So, I'm reading the book IV of Virgil's Georgics and was puzzled by the &quot;God&quot; mentioned in the following lines (starting at line 219 of James Rhoades' translation)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Led by these tokens, and with such traits to guide,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Some say that unto bees a share is given&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Of the Divine Intelligence, and to drink&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Pure draughts of ether; for God permeates all-&#xD;&#xA;(...)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A few lines later it's also stated that &quot;all things to Him return&quot;. Who is this God? Jupiter was of course the supreme deity of Roman religion, but I wasn't aware of any belief that would explain the &quot;God permeates all&quot;, as he is usually depicted in human-like form, I think. Nor would ancient romans expect to &quot;return&quot; to him in a literal way. This sounds a lot like the christian view of God. Is Vergil referring to some element of their religion? Some aspect of Zeus (or other God) that would have been recognized by his readers)? Is he using &quot;God&quot; as an analogy for Nature or some literary device? Any chance that this part was added later, by a christian? I'm really intrigued." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20861" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6288" RevisionGUID="8a832da1-f542-4bf7-8c6d-5a1078ca06ab" CreationDate="2020-04-03T18:55:19.493" UserId="6808" Text="Who or what is Vergil referring to when he mentions God/Divine Intelligence in the Georgics?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20862" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6288" RevisionGUID="8a832da1-f542-4bf7-8c6d-5a1078ca06ab" CreationDate="2020-04-03T18:55:19.493" UserId="6808" Text="|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20863" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6289" RevisionGUID="2a0401cb-a18a-4616-8146-c4943e346d94" CreationDate="2020-04-04T00:44:36.883" UserId="6810" Text="I am beginning an interest in Norse mythology, and I am looking for a complete copy of the Prose Edda. There are several versions available on Barnes and Noble, but I want one that gives all four books, and is as close to the original as possible. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, if there are other texts that I should consider in conjunction with the Edda, I would like to know these also. Thank you very much for any help." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20864" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6289" RevisionGUID="2a0401cb-a18a-4616-8146-c4943e346d94" CreationDate="2020-04-04T00:44:36.883" UserId="6810" Text="Finding A Good Prose Edda and other resources for Norse mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20865" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6289" RevisionGUID="2a0401cb-a18a-4616-8146-c4943e346d94" CreationDate="2020-04-04T00:44:36.883" UserId="6810" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20866" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6290" RevisionGUID="fcde263c-1a22-44b5-b94b-83f20b25833b" CreationDate="2020-04-04T07:34:08.100" UserId="5511" Text="Original 219-222:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; His quidam signis atque haec exempla secuti&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; esse apibus partem divinae mentis et haustus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; aetherios dixere; **deum** namque ire per omnes&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; terrasque tractusque maris caelumque profundum.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The word **deum** here is 2nd genitive masculine plural, so should be translated as *of the gods*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rhoades (1841-1923) has been described as &quot;a conventional poet who wrote of imperial war in a conservative idiom and a grandiloquent style&quot;. As many Western translators before him, he probably made his translation align with the Judeo-Christian pantheon. &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20867" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6291" RevisionGUID="f13e7458-991b-4aba-8ae3-50b42888302c" CreationDate="2020-04-04T08:02:25.767" UserId="6645" Text="When reading in Wikipedia about the Tigris, Euphrates, and other rivers in the general vicinit, I read about a transmitted story of one warrior who, after winnning in battle, washed his sword in the source of a river. Which river and which legend might that have been?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I do not remember enough details, but the episode might be unique enough to be identified. If I remember correctly, the source was located north of Syria, that is in modern Turkey, Georgia, or most likely if memory serves, Armenia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whether the story is a myth or based on history I don't know." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20868" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6291" RevisionGUID="f13e7458-991b-4aba-8ae3-50b42888302c" CreationDate="2020-04-04T08:02:25.767" UserId="6645" Text="Which legend has a warrior wash his sword in the source of the river?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20869" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6291" RevisionGUID="f13e7458-991b-4aba-8ae3-50b42888302c" CreationDate="2020-04-04T08:02:25.767" UserId="6645" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20870" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6188" RevisionGUID="975487c3-1110-4d95-83d9-2e74e6b6a558" CreationDate="2020-04-04T12:02:20.470" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="20875" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6293" RevisionGUID="a93dcd47-54af-4951-8f26-0b57fc19e952" CreationDate="2020-04-04T23:27:13.353" UserId="6394" Text="The page https://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NymphaiPleiades.html states:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;The Pleiades were seven mountain-nymph daughters of the Titan Atlas. Their leader was Maia the mother of Hermes by Zeus.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I can't actually find anything in the translations on theoi.com to support this. In fact, there does not appear to be any story in which the Pleiads actually work together to achieve any sort of common goal, and so it doesn't seem to me that they would have had any sort of leader at all!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A possible exception might be the missing story from the Epic Cycle in which the Pleiades are members of Artemis's hunting party (see my earlier question: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/6016/artemis-and-the-pleiades). But even then, surely Artemis would have been the leader, not one of her attendants!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Robert Graves, in his *Greek Myths*, makes an equally-unsourced claim that Alcyone was their leader. As well as failing to cite any sources, Graves offers no supporting detail as to what the Pleiades might have been doing that needed a leader.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does anyone know what the original source was for the Maia-as-leader claim? Or, at least, for any of the claims that they had a leader *at all?* If so, do you know what it was that she actually led them in doing?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20876" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6293" RevisionGUID="a93dcd47-54af-4951-8f26-0b57fc19e952" CreationDate="2020-04-04T23:27:13.353" UserId="6394" Text="Claims that the Pleiades had some kind of leader" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20877" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6293" RevisionGUID="a93dcd47-54af-4951-8f26-0b57fc19e952" CreationDate="2020-04-04T23:27:13.353" UserId="6394" Text="|greek|nymphs|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20878" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6285" RevisionGUID="17f025e8-c1f3-4293-929f-bb2bf2f20df9" CreationDate="2020-04-04T23:37:24.033" UserId="5710" Comment="added 70 characters in body" Text="Unfortunately, almost all we know about it is written in texts that were written after the viking age, so it is difficult to say that we have the full picture of what old norse people believed. No text mention the goddesses during *Ragnarǫk* , the only gods that are mentioned are Odin (*Óðinn*), who fights against Fenrir; Frey (*Freyr*), who fights against Surt (*Surtr*); Thor (*Þórr*), who fights against the Midgard Serpent (*Miðgarðsormr*); and (according to Snorri), Heimdall (*Heimdallr*), who fights against Loki. And that's pretty much all we know about gods during the &quot;God's fate&quot;." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20879" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6294" RevisionGUID="853ad055-91a4-4e56-b6b7-b33c156ec428" CreationDate="2020-04-05T15:53:42.217" UserId="6817" Text="To me, it's likely something else (than merely &quot;wild animals&quot;) that come during famines/war, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's significant enough (numerically)...to specifically be identified with war, and hunger: to destroy a fourth of the earth! So it's not merely, &quot;wild animals&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When you look up the root Greek used...it implies (&quot;from hell&quot; or &quot;evil&quot;).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Given that many (wicked) things will come upon the earth from hell...as the woes continue, I think the odds are likely it's related.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One area that comes to mind...(as spoken in the books of Enoch and Jubilees and Jaser, among others): are that the spirits of the giants and the hybrids are buried &quot;in/on the earth&quot;, in the rocks/deserts/mountains for &quot;70 GENERATIONS&quot; from the &quot;days of Jared&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This time period is not out of the question here/now...as we approach or are in (the last generation).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Only time will tell. Stay in prayer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The victory is the Lords." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20880" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6283" RevisionGUID="a5166532-b7c8-4139-aa63-c67ce2695e3f" CreationDate="2020-04-05T16:46:21.143" UserId="5710" Comment="Fixed text" Text="Did the goddessess in Norse mythology fight during the Ragnarok? Everything I have read is about the gods fighting." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20881" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="6283" RevisionGUID="a5166532-b7c8-4139-aa63-c67ce2695e3f" CreationDate="2020-04-05T16:46:21.143" Comment="Proposed by 5710 approved by 5726, 2682 edit id of 1805" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20882" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6295" RevisionGUID="f5ca25f4-285b-41c0-999e-fe111a6f4418" CreationDate="2020-04-05T19:45:04.697" UserId="6773" Text="In the past I heard couple of legends about some mythic land in the north of Europe called Lechia. But after reading couple of articles about legendary Kingodm of Lechia I decided to find more information about this Kingdom. Below I listed some of them and I wonder is it something real or we should think about it as a legend/mythology?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**ANCIENT CITIES:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Kodan (nowadays polish city Gdańsk) – 1750 BC -&gt; confirmed by [Pomponius Mela’s&#xD;&#xA;   Map][1]&#xD;&#xA; - Gniezno – (nowadays polish city Gniezno) - 1700 BC&#xD;&#xA; - Carodom (nowadays polish city Cracow/Kraków) – 1550 BC&#xD;&#xA; - Szczyt (nowadays polish city Szczecin) – 1450 BC&#xD;&#xA; - Vineta - legendary town in the north - more [info][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**MEGALITHIC TOMBS:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Słonowice - [&quot;Polish Valley of the Kings&quot;][3] - 4000 BC (older that Valley of the Kings in Egypt) and one more [link][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**GENETIC CLUE:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Haplogroup R1a (Y-DNA) - more info [here][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**ROMAN CONNECTION:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - inscription - some info [here][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**TERITORY:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Sarmatia - info [here][7]&#xD;&#xA; - Mare Sarmaticum (today Baltic see)&#xD;&#xA; - and concept [Sarmatism][8] - well known in Poland&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**CERAMIC:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Bronocice pot - 3400 BC - probably older wheel concept that Sumerian - more info [here][9]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So my question is about existence of this kind of civilisation in the ancient time. Is it real or myth?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://digitalmapsoftheancientworld.com/ancient-maps/pomponius-melas-map/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vineta&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.realmofhistory.com/2016/03/05/massive-megalithic-tombs-found-in-poland/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/polish-pyramids-ruins-megalithic-tombs-time-stonehenge-discovered-poland-020755&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.jassa.org/?p=10666&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.bible-history.com/maps/romanempire/Sarmatia.html&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatism&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronocice_pot" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20883" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6295" RevisionGUID="f5ca25f4-285b-41c0-999e-fe111a6f4418" CreationDate="2020-04-05T19:45:04.697" UserId="6773" Text="Legendary forgotten Kingdom of Lechia" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20884" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6295" RevisionGUID="f5ca25f4-285b-41c0-999e-fe111a6f4418" CreationDate="2020-04-05T19:45:04.697" UserId="6773" Text="|myth-identification|mythohistory|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20885" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6296" RevisionGUID="b0ef54fd-c508-438f-85f0-649a26a16e0f" CreationDate="2020-04-06T10:53:13.870" UserId="5511" Text="Lechia is the mythological name for Poland, stemming from the word Lech (which is also a common first name). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to legend, the name derives from the first ruler of Poland, Lech. It is also the derivation for the term Lechitic languages.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/CYQH2.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20888" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6298" RevisionGUID="9fdbca5c-a2d1-443a-8f1e-c1d74ba3a6d5" CreationDate="2020-04-06T15:08:33.030" UserId="5726" Text="I'm afraid the source you mentioned is on a TV show called [Lost Girl][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The best source for finding relevant info on the Vetala is the [Kathasaritsagara][2] especially book 12 and especially the story of [Baital Pachisi][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The twelfth book is important as it contains the plan and details of a collection of tales extremely popular in India, existing both in Sanskrit and in all the vernacular dialects, called the Vetala Panchavimshati: twenty-five tales of a Vetala being related by a sprite, who haunts cemeteries and animates dead bodies, to Vikramaditya, king of Ujjain, according to the usual version, to Trivikramasena, king of Pratishthan, on the Godavari, according to the Kathasaritsagara.&lt;sub&gt;[Kathasaritsagara Wikipedia][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further information may be gleaned from the [The Imperial Gazetteer of India Vol.2][5] a great historical reference book, which is available online for free and linked at the bottom of the quote.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A collection of pretty and ingenious fairy-tales is the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Vetalapanchavimsati, or ' Twenty-five Tales of the Goblin,' stories&#xD;&#xA;&gt; supposed to be told to king Vikrama of Ujjayini by a demon inhabiting&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a corpse. They are known to English readers from Sir Richard Burton's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Vikram and the Vampire. Another collection of fairy-tales is the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Simhasana-dvatrimsika, or ' Thirtytwo Stories of the Lion-seat,'&#xD;&#xA;&gt; supposed to be told to king Vikrama by his throne. Both these works&#xD;&#xA;&gt; are of Buddhistic origin. To the same class belongs the Suka-saptati,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; or ' Seventy Stories of a Parrot,' represented as narrated to a wife&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whose husband is away on his travels. &lt;sub&gt;[The Imperial Gazetteer of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; India (waybackmachine)][6]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1429449/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathasaritsagara&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baital_Pachisi&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathasaritsagara#Books_11_to_13&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Imperial_Gazetteer_of_India&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://archive.org/details/imperialgazette02hunt/page/252/mode/2up" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20890" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6298" RevisionGUID="cdf9d8f8-9fb9-4cf5-904a-115e75a0bd12" CreationDate="2020-04-06T15:47:34.450" UserId="5726" Comment="added 81 characters in body; added 138 characters in body" Text="I'm afraid the source you mentioned is on a TV show called [Lost Girl][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The best source for finding relevant info on the Vetala is the [Kathasaritsagara][2] especially book 12&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And especially the story [(better known as Vikram and the Vampire)][3] of [Baital Pachisi ][4] (In Sanskrit, Vetala-pancha-Vinshati. &quot;Baital&quot; is the modern form of &quot; Vetala).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The twelfth book is important as it contains the plan and details of a collection of tales extremely popular in India, existing both in Sanskrit and in all the vernacular dialects, called the Vetala Panchavimshati: twenty-five tales of a Vetala being related by a sprite, who haunts cemeteries and animates dead bodies, to Vikramaditya, king of Ujjain, according to the usual version, to Trivikramasena, king of Pratishthan, on the Godavari, according to the Kathasaritsagara.&lt;sub&gt;[Kathasaritsagara Wikipedia][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further information may be gleaned from the [The Imperial Gazetteer of India Vol.2][6] a great historical reference book, which is available online for free and linked at the bottom of the quote.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A collection of pretty and ingenious fairy-tales is the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Vetalapanchavimsati, or ' Twenty-five Tales of the Goblin,' stories&#xD;&#xA;&gt; supposed to be told to king Vikrama of Ujjayini by a demon inhabiting&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a corpse. They are known to English readers from Sir Richard Burton's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Vikram and the Vampire. Another collection of fairy-tales is the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Simhasana-dvatrimsika, or ' Thirtytwo Stories of the Lion-seat,'&#xD;&#xA;&gt; supposed to be told to king Vikrama by his throne. Both these works&#xD;&#xA;&gt; are of Buddhistic origin. To the same class belongs the Suka-saptati,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; or ' Seventy Stories of a Parrot,' represented as narrated to a wife&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whose husband is away on his travels. &lt;sub&gt;[The Imperial Gazetteer of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; India (waybackmachine)][7]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1429449/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathasaritsagara&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.globalgreyebooks.com/content/books/ebooks/vikram-and-the-vampire.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baital_Pachisi&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathasaritsagara#Books_11_to_13&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Imperial_Gazetteer_of_India&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://archive.org/details/imperialgazette02hunt/page/252/mode/2up" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20891" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6298" RevisionGUID="1c46da0a-f244-4ba6-9689-a0b8f7a2cc2a" CreationDate="2020-04-06T18:35:21.460" UserId="5726" Comment="added 91 characters in body" Text="I'm afraid the source you mentioned is on a TV show called [Lost Girl][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The best source for finding relevant info on the Vetala is the [Kathasaritsagara][2] especially book 12&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And especially the story [(better known as Vikram and the Vampire)][3] of [Baital Pachisi ][4]  or Twenty-five (tales of a) Baital (In Sanskrit, Vetala-pancha-Vinshati. &quot;Baital&quot; is the modern form of Vetala)[¹][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The twelfth book is important as it contains the plan and details of a collection of tales extremely popular in India, existing both in Sanskrit and in all the vernacular dialects, called the Vetala Panchavimshati: twenty-five tales of a Vetala being related by a sprite, who haunts cemeteries and animates dead bodies, to Vikramaditya, king of Ujjain, according to the usual version, to Trivikramasena, king of Pratishthan, on the Godavari, according to the Kathasaritsagara.&lt;sub&gt;[Kathasaritsagara Wikipedia][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further information may be gleaned from the [The Imperial Gazetteer of India Vol.2][6] a great historical reference book, which is available online for free and linked at the bottom of the quote.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A collection of pretty and ingenious fairy-tales is the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Vetalapanchavimsati, or ' Twenty-five Tales of the Goblin,' stories&#xD;&#xA;&gt; supposed to be told to king Vikrama of Ujjayini by a demon inhabiting&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a corpse. They are known to English readers from Sir Richard Burton's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Vikram and the Vampire. Another collection of fairy-tales is the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Simhasana-dvatrimsika, or ' Thirtytwo Stories of the Lion-seat,'&#xD;&#xA;&gt; supposed to be told to king Vikrama by his throne. Both these works&#xD;&#xA;&gt; are of Buddhistic origin. To the same class belongs the Suka-saptati,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; or ' Seventy Stories of a Parrot,' represented as narrated to a wife&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whose husband is away on his travels. &lt;sub&gt;[The Imperial Gazetteer of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; India (waybackmachine)][7]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;¹ [page 5 line 7 of Vikram and the Vampire][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1429449/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathasaritsagara&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.globalgreyebooks.com/content/books/ebooks/vikram-and-the-vampire.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baital_Pachisi&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathasaritsagara#Books_11_to_13&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Imperial_Gazetteer_of_India&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://archive.org/details/imperialgazette02hunt/page/252/mode/2up" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20892" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6295" RevisionGUID="a3c3e4ec-fb39-42c0-bcd4-fa4d0f25b743" CreationDate="2020-04-06T19:08:39.740" UserId="5726" Comment="minor typo fix and added hyperlink and tag" Text="In the past I heard couple of legends about some mythic land in the north of Europe called [Lechia][1]. But after reading couple of articles about legendary Kingdom of Lechia I decided to find more information about this Kingdom. Below I listed some of them and I wonder, is it something real or should we think about it as a legend/mythology?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**ANCIENT CITIES:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Kodan (nowadays polish city Gdańsk) – 1750 BC -&gt; confirmed by [Pomponius Mela’s&#xD;&#xA;   Map][2]&#xD;&#xA; - Gniezno – (nowadays polish city Gniezno) - 1700 BC&#xD;&#xA; - Carodom (nowadays polish city Cracow/Kraków) – 1550 BC&#xD;&#xA; - Szczyt (nowadays polish city Szczecin) – 1450 BC&#xD;&#xA; - Vineta - legendary town in the north - more [info][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**MEGALITHIC TOMBS:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Słonowice - [&quot;Polish Valley of the Kings&quot;][4] - 4000 BC (older that Valley of the Kings in Egypt) and one more [link][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**GENETIC CLUE:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Haplogroup R1a (Y-DNA) - more info [here][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**ROMAN CONNECTION:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - inscription - some info [here][7]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**TERITORY:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Sarmatia - info [here][8]&#xD;&#xA; - Mare Sarmaticum (today Baltic see)&#xD;&#xA; - and concept [Sarmatism][9] - well known in Poland&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**CERAMIC:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Bronocice pot - 3400 BC - probably older wheel concept that Sumerian - more info [here][10]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So my question is about existence of this kind of civilisation in the ancient time. Is it real or myth?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lechia&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://digitalmapsoftheancientworld.com/ancient-maps/pomponius-melas-map/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vineta&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.realmofhistory.com/2016/03/05/massive-megalithic-tombs-found-in-poland/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/polish-pyramids-ruins-megalithic-tombs-time-stonehenge-discovered-poland-020755&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.jassa.org/?p=10666&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.bible-history.com/maps/romanempire/Sarmatia.html&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatism&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronocice_pot" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20893" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="6295" RevisionGUID="a3c3e4ec-fb39-42c0-bcd4-fa4d0f25b743" CreationDate="2020-04-06T19:08:39.740" UserId="5726" Comment="minor typo fix and added hyperlink and tag" Text="|myth-identification|mythohistory|european-folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20894" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6300" RevisionGUID="0f19cb3a-9f94-4295-92d6-414cc4634e56" CreationDate="2020-04-06T22:06:48.237" UserId="6825" Text="It is possibly Icelandic but I can only find it in one place with no name or explanation. Similar to a helm of awe but with an A in the middle and the ends are alternating circles and crescents.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/dSZqa.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20895" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6300" RevisionGUID="0f19cb3a-9f94-4295-92d6-414cc4634e56" CreationDate="2020-04-06T22:06:48.237" UserId="6825" Text="What is this Norse symbol?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20896" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6300" RevisionGUID="0f19cb3a-9f94-4295-92d6-414cc4634e56" CreationDate="2020-04-06T22:06:48.237" UserId="6825" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20897" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6301" RevisionGUID="a86fac8b-512b-4e67-87fd-eea9fe80e089" CreationDate="2020-04-06T22:44:44.600" UserId="6826" Text="Does anyone knows if theres classical reference for relating the Goddess Hebe with Xenia or Theoxenia (receiving well the guests)?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found relations of Hebe with marriage and pardoning supplicants, but no relation to Xenia, which I thought would be obvious: &#xD;&#xA;Her images are often of an Eagle that just landed drinking on an Amphor, this could represent an hospitality relation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If Hebe is not related to Xenia, there would be an explanation for this?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20898" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6301" RevisionGUID="a86fac8b-512b-4e67-87fd-eea9fe80e089" CreationDate="2020-04-06T22:44:44.600" UserId="6826" Text="Is Hebe related to the concept of Xenia?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20899" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6301" RevisionGUID="a86fac8b-512b-4e67-87fd-eea9fe80e089" CreationDate="2020-04-06T22:44:44.600" UserId="6826" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20900" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6293" RevisionGUID="85b97a4f-bb14-46d6-b0cd-171406597a4d" CreationDate="2020-04-07T06:43:54.203" UserId="6394" Comment="Added two points that were raised in comments and which I should have included in my question." Text="The page https://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NymphaiPleiades.html states:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;The Pleiades were seven mountain-nymph daughters of the Titan Atlas. Their leader was Maia the mother of Hermes by Zeus.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I can't actually find anything in the translations on theoi.com to support this. In fact, there does not appear to be any story in which the Pleiads actually work together to achieve any sort of common goal, and so it doesn't seem to me that they would have had any sort of leader at all!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A possible exception might be the missing story from the Epic Cycle in which the Pleiades are members of Artemis's hunting party (see my earlier question: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/6016/artemis-and-the-pleiades). But even then, surely Artemis would have been the leader, not one of her attendants!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Robert Graves, in his *Greek Myths*, makes an equally-unsourced claim that Alcyone was their leader. As well as failing to cite any sources, Graves offers no supporting detail as to what the Pleiades might have been doing that needed a leader.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does anyone know what the original source was for the Maia-as-leader claim? Or, at least, for any of the claims that they had a leader *at all?* If so, do you know what it was that she actually led them in doing?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Edits based on comments:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. The star Maia is roughly in the middle of the Pleiades star cluster, so couldn't be either the first to rise or the last to set.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 2. Maia *was* the oldest of the Pleiades, and I have wondered whether &quot;leader&quot; just resulted from a mistranslation of &quot;oldest&quot;." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20901" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6302" RevisionGUID="2f33e95d-88e0-4ae1-ae3b-37fe1499cbe7" CreationDate="2020-04-07T07:30:40.733" UserId="116" Text="The only book I have is [Douglas Gifford's Warriors, Gods and Spirits from Central and South American Mythology (illustrated by John Sibbick)][1]. This book is part of the [The World Mythology series][2], which includes books about, well, mythologies from around the world (non-exhaustive, I'd say). The book is not specifically about Aztec myths, but has a whole chapter about them. Note that this series seems to be oriented to a young adult public, so it might be good as a starting point, but not enough if you need something more in-depth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/467050.Warriors_Gods_and_Spirits_from_Central_and_South_American_Mythology?from_search=true&amp;from_srp=true&amp;qid=hXvmuuXeF4&amp;rank=1&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.goodreads.com/series/178420-the-world-mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20902" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6303" RevisionGUID="1d9fc432-5255-4b94-8a03-1b49477a51ed" CreationDate="2020-04-07T16:26:16.693" UserId="5431" Text="The 'Dangun myth' tell the story of Korea's origins. [Hwanin/Haneullim][1] is the Supreme God, whose son [Hwanung][2] descends to earth to a **sandalwood** tree. His son is [Dangun][3], founder and god-king of [Gojoseon][4], the first Korean kingdom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first extant record of the myth is in the [Samguk Yusa][5] ([Chinese Source Text][6]), the 'Memorabilia of the Three Kingdoms', written in [Classical Chinese][7] - the script then used in Korea. From the Haneullim Wikipedia we read:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The prince arrived under the Sindansu/ Shindansu (신단수/ Hanja: 神檀樹, &quot;Holy Tree of Sandalwood&quot;) on the holy mountain, where he founded his holy city.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It cites Dr. Lee Chi-Ran, The Emergence of National Religions in Korea, where we see the tree reapear in this line:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; However, she lacked a husband, and soon became sad and prayed beneath a Sindansu (신단수; 神檀樹, &quot;Divine Betula&quot;) tree to be blessed with a child.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We read **elsewhere** that the tree is called Paktal Namu, as in Hyung Il Pai's [Constructing Korean Origins: A Critical Review of Archaeology][8], pg. 58, *&quot;the old name for the sacred tree tansu (paktal namu).&quot;*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some claim it is the [Betula Schmidtii][11], like Keith Pratt and Richard Rutt in [Korea: A Historical and Cultural Dictionary][12], pg. 481. Birch does feature in Korean shamanism, so much so that it was brought from the North to the South (where it doesn't grow), as recounted here in [Are All Warriors Male?: Gender Roles on the Ancient Eurasian Steppe][13], pg. 121, by Katheryn M. Linduff, Karen S. Rubinson. The Koreans were even called [the race of the 'sandalwood'][14], and the tree is considered the Tree of Life in Korean Shamanism, so identifying the correct genus and species should be quite important.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**So which genus and species is 神檀樹/Paktal Namu? The [Sandalwood][9] or [Birch ('Betula')][10] genus? And which species of sandalwood/birch?** And which tree do the Korean Shamans use/regard as the 神檀樹?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haneullim&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hwanung&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dangun&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gojoseon&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samguk_yusa&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E4%B8%89%E5%9C%8B%E9%81%BA%E4%BA%8B/%E5%8D%B7%E7%AC%AC%E4%B8%80&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_Chinese&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://books.google.com.hk/books?id=AKTaDwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA58&amp;lpg=PA58&amp;dq=paktal%20namu&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=tigsF7hO6P&amp;sig=ACfU3U3vNJYisA4phQf3JH_tZ4pK2V4kBw&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwjrxZKp2dboAhVOBKYKHbSNBswQ6AEwAHoECAsQKQ#v=onepage&amp;q=paktal%20namu&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandalwood&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birch&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://species.wikimedia.org/wiki/Betula_schmidtii&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://books.google.com.hk/books?id=8tdcAgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA481&amp;lpg=PA481&amp;dq=betula%20schmidtii%20korea&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=dXg817jwKN&amp;sig=ACfU3U1GnxQwjYl3cCWzPadHuUA6IhKfyQ&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwj1z5vTztboAhUS7GEKHY22BY8Q6AEwEXoECAkQLA#v=onepage&amp;q=betula%20schmidtii%20korea&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://books.google.com.hk/books?id=Xd5bAAAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA121&amp;lpg=PA121&amp;dq=birch%20in%20korean%20shamanism&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=501m1fFGpG&amp;sig=ACfU3U2c14gKCvPOUUFte1843sNTDTUGOw&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwjj_unf2tboAhVCy4sBHVtVBqkQ6AEwGHoECAsQOQ#v=onepage&amp;q=birch%20in%20korean%20shamanism&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://books.google.com.hk/books?id=N3ldDwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA19&amp;lpg=PA19&amp;dq=sandalwood%20in%20korean%20shamanism&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=0_14_eruEb&amp;sig=ACfU3U1n_THzBmoU5UywXUbtCyYaCtSHEg&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwjkucTN29boAhWSd94KHdR5AToQ6AEwGHoECA4QKQ#v=snippet&amp;q=sandalwood&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20903" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6303" RevisionGUID="1d9fc432-5255-4b94-8a03-1b49477a51ed" CreationDate="2020-04-07T16:26:16.693" UserId="5431" Text="What species of tree is meant in the Dangun myth of Korea?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20904" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6303" RevisionGUID="1d9fc432-5255-4b94-8a03-1b49477a51ed" CreationDate="2020-04-07T16:26:16.693" UserId="5431" Text="|world-tree|korean|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20905" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6304" RevisionGUID="403a06dd-b2f9-42d7-a420-586bc7fe8704" CreationDate="2020-04-07T16:52:10.897" UserId="5726" Text="I can notice 3 kinds of symbols (anarchy, Venus or gold, and silver or the crescent moon of Islam) in an overal feel of a [Ægishjálmur][1] (Helm of Awe) or [Vegvísir][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Anarchy ##&#xD;&#xA;The A enclosed in a circle is the symbol for Anarchy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Anarchy is the state of a society being freely constituted without&#xD;&#xA;&gt; authorities or a governing body. It may also refer to a society or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; group of people that totally rejects a set hierarchy.&lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia on Anarchy][3](It is a little more complicated than the quote text says but you get the idea).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;img src=&quot;https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7a/Anarchy-symbol.svg/1024px-Anarchy-symbol.svg.png&quot; width=&quot;100&quot; height=&quot;100&quot;/&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Courtesy of Wikipedia][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Venus/copper ##&#xD;&#xA;The circle with stripes is the alchemical symbol for copper and Venus.&#xD;&#xA;Copper was associated with the planet Venus by alchemists. In our modern world this symbol is a symbol to denote the female sex.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;img src=&quot;https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/Venus_symbol.svg/1024px-Venus_symbol.svg.png&quot; width=&quot;100&quot; height=&quot;100&quot;/&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Courtesy of Wikipedia][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Crescent moon ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The crescent moon is a notable symbol of Islam (although there are disagreements by a growing group of modern Islamic scholars) but is actually more notable as the symbol of the [Ottoman Empire][6] following the [conquest/fall of Constantinople in 1453][7]. .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;img src=&quot;https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/IslamSymbol1.svg/1024px-IslamSymbol1.svg.png&quot; width=&quot;100&quot; height=&quot;100&quot;/&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Courtesy of Wikipedia][8]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The other crescent moon is the alchemical symbol for silver and The Moon&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;img src=&quot;https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/Crescent.svg/1024px-Crescent.svg.png&quot; width=&quot;100&quot; height=&quot;100&quot;/&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Courtesy of Wikipedia][9]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helm_of_Awe&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegv%C3%ADsir&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy#/media/File:Anarchy-symbol.svg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female#/media/File:Venus_symbol.svg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Ottoman_Empire&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Constantinople&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_calendar#/media/File:IslamSymbol1.svg&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemical_symbol#/media/File:Crescent.svg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20906" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5431" RevisionGUID="fb8c1cb9-1465-4117-9ba8-590360446687" CreationDate="2020-04-07T17:13:38.383" UserId="5726" Comment="tiny typo fix" Text="As @Codosaur Pointed out, Satan is a character that rises up against the supreme deity of the mythology. I would add that in the Christian religion, he comes by many [names][1] I'll start a list here and we'll try to explain some of their signification:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Lord of the underworld / Lord of [Hell][2] / Lord of this World:&#xD;&#xA;Satan is supposed to rule over hell, so the afterlife of the &quot;bad guys&quot;, he was put in this role after rebelling against God, it doesn't mean he wants to do it as the [Lucifer TV-shows][3] (That I advise you to watch)&#xD;&#xA; - [Lucifer / The Morning Star][4]: {Latin}&#xD;&#xA;Often portrayed as a beautiful archangel and the bringer of light, the illuminator&#xD;&#xA; - [Mephistopheles][5]: {German}&#xD;&#xA;Which Etymology seems to come from: &quot;scatterer, disperser&quot;, &quot;plasterer of lies&quot;, &quot;light&quot;, &quot;philis&quot; meaning &quot;loving&quot; maybe meaning &quot;not-light-loving&quot;, it is seen as a parody of Lucifer but I'll mostly just remember it as Lucifer plus a touch of &quot;scatterer of light&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After theses explanations about some of the names that are attributed to Satan, I want to point out the part where he is supposed to:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Rebel against the supreme God&#xD;&#xA; - Scatters the light&#xD;&#xA; - Be the ruler of the afterlife (Mostly the punishing part)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Prometheus, before 800BCE ##&#xD;&#xA;The [titan god][6] of forethought and crafty counsel created the humans on Zeus order. He then tried to improve their life by all means. One of those means implied giving the fire to the humans, this can be seen as the bringer of light (1st point). Doing this angered Zeus, the supreme deity (2nd point).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The timeline here is [this one][7], which states the first records 8th century BCE, thanks @DukeZhou for the correction:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then I found out about the [Japanese creation myth][8], where we can find two primordial gods:&#xD;&#xA;## Izanagi and Izanami, ~700BCE##&#xD;&#xA;Which share the characteristics of Satan that I described earlier mixed with those of a supreme God. They are the creator of everything (Japan), keep in mind the fire creating (1st point):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Izanagi and Izanami then created gods and goddesses of the trees, mountains, valleys, streams, winds, and other natural features of Japan. While giving birth to the fire god Kagutsuchi, Izanami was badly burned. As she lay dying, she produced more gods and goddesses. Other deities emerged from the tears of her grief-stricken husband.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Izanagi angered Izanami a bit after her death (2nd point) and after this episode Izanami became the ruler of the Underworld (3rd point):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When Izanami died, she went to Yomi-tsu Kuni, the land of darkness and death. Izanagi followed her there and tried to bring her back. But Izanami's body had already begun to decay, and she hid in the shadows and told Izanagi that she could not leave. Izanagi could not resist looking at his beloved wife one last time. When he lit a torch and saw her rotting corpse, he fled in terror. Angry that Izanagi had seen her, Izanami sent hideous spirits to chase him. Izanagi managed to escape, and he sealed off the passage to Yomi-tsu Kuni with a huge boulder. Izanami remained there and ruled over the dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the [Wikipedia page][9] about this story, we can read that they are both infuriated against each other, so we can give all the credit of being the &quot;Satan&quot; of this religion to Izanami:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Izanagi burst through the entrance and quickly pushed a boulder to the entrance of Yomi. Izanami screamed from behind this barricade and told Izanagi that, if he left her, she would destroy 1,000 living people every day. He furiously replied that he would give life to 1,500.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the period where those myth were created, I didn't find something more precise about the oral sharing([1][10], [2][11]):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The myths of Japanese popular religion derive from oral traditions codified for posterity in two books: the Nihon Shoki, published in 720 CE and the Kojiki written by an official of the Empress Gemmyo between 708 and 714 CE. An additional source, the Kogoshui was written in c. 807 CE by Imibe-no-Hironari who collected together oral traditions omitted from the Nihon Shoki and Kojiki.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Community Wiki ##&#xD;&#xA;If someone wants to add a contribution to this, try to keep the original format. I'm also open to its format improvement, based on suggestions.&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil#Demons&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer_(TV_series)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mephistopheles&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanPrometheus.html&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus#Oldest_legends&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Iz-Le/Japanese-Mythology.html&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_mythology#Izanagi_in_the_underworld&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://www.ancient.eu/Izanami_and_Izanagi/&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://owlcation.com/social-sciences/IzanagiandIzunami" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20907" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5800" RevisionGUID="84c78325-1c09-4a8b-b293-7082ef13dd63" CreationDate="2020-04-09T01:01:25.157" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="20908" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6305" RevisionGUID="3cb8450b-aeeb-4afa-bb47-028a34c5be63" CreationDate="2020-04-09T09:01:20.663" UserId="5511" Text="神檀樹 in Literary Chinese literally means:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - 神 (shén) : spirit / deity&#xD;&#xA; - 檀 (tán): sandalwood / hardwood&#xD;&#xA; - 樹 (shù): tree&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Translating 神檀樹 as &quot;Divine Betula&quot; is not supported by the characters. 檀 (tán) would have to be substituted by 樺 (huà)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20909" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6222" RevisionGUID="7abd0028-c872-4e3b-9cc4-ed4d526ce83c" CreationDate="2020-04-10T13:03:35.530" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="20912" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4686" RevisionGUID="7cfad8a5-45f8-4949-97f7-dbe819d5bc10" CreationDate="2020-04-10T16:30:00.190" UserId="6832" Comment="Corrected spelling errors, fixed a grammatical mistake" Text="Vishnu was not &quot;God.&quot; He was a god. Hinduism has a variety of labels on what kind of religion it is (i.e. polytheism, monotheism, atheism, non-theism...). But for most of the part, more then one being is labeled as a god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Vrinda was married to King Jalandhar. And because she was so devoted to Vishnu, Jalandhar became invincible to the point not even Shiva could defeat him. Shiva asked Vishnu to find an answer. His solution was to claim Vrinda's chastity, thus resulting in Jalandhar's loss of power. Shiva killed him." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20913" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4686" RevisionGUID="7cfad8a5-45f8-4949-97f7-dbe819d5bc10" CreationDate="2020-04-10T16:30:00.190" Comment="Proposed by 6832 approved by -1 edit id of 1806" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20914" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4686" RevisionGUID="65667115-c52e-4ed1-baa4-95481284c78a" CreationDate="2020-04-10T16:30:00.190" UserId="5726" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body" Text="Vishnu was not &quot;God.&quot; He was a god. Hinduism has a variety of labels on what kind of religion it is (i.e. polytheism, monotheism, atheism, non-theism...). But for the most part, more than one being is labeled as a god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Vrinda was married to King Jalandhar. And because she was so devoted to Vishnu, Jalandhar became invincible to the point not even Shiva could defeat him. Shiva asked Vishnu to find an answer. His solution was to claim Vrinda's chastity, thus resulting in Jalandhar's loss of power. Shiva killed him." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20916" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6307" RevisionGUID="b64f8e13-75b2-4e45-aea1-b6f7682b80d9" CreationDate="2020-04-11T16:49:37.207" UserId="6836" Text="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yama_(Hinduism)#Brahma_Purana yama is the god of death and justice in Hinduism which I found interesting.   https://norse-mythology.net/forseti-the-god-of-justice-in-norse-mythology/    and another god of justice, norse mythology.   &#xD;&#xA;https://www.ancient.eu/Thoth/ and toth, egyption god of wisom.  Hopefully close to what you were looking for, most pantheon god discussions end up about the greeks or egyptions, but theres others out there" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20917" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5443" RevisionGUID="09fe79f3-8662-4dd0-9a13-c059c661e5d4" CreationDate="2020-04-11T19:03:59.977" UserDisplayName="user5459" Comment="Clarification" Text="Are there myths that feature such beings?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My answer to a question by a commenter: If all deities or other supernatural beings you refer to are gods, then the question is clear. No gods." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20918" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6308" RevisionGUID="a7779454-c2d7-4320-a6c3-e228c3813fce" CreationDate="2020-04-11T19:48:29.527" UserId="5503" Text="The *Prose Edda* translation Anthony Faulkes seems to be quite complete, it contains *Háttatal* too (this is the enumeration of verse forms omitted in several other translations). &#xD;&#xA;If you are interested in Old Norse mythology, I would recommend the following sources:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - *The Poetic Edda* (this really is one of the most important sources for our knowledge of Old Norse mythology)&#xD;&#xA; - The *Völsunga Saga* (this is more about heroes than about Gods, the material overlaps in part with the Poetic Edda, the Old High German Niebelungenlied and other materials)&#xD;&#xA; - *Þiðreks saga* can also be interesting, it is a heroic saga about the Gothic king Theodoric the Great who also plays a role in the *Völsunga Saga* and related texts, there are also some connections with Völundr (who is also in the *Poetic Edda*)&#xD;&#xA; - The *Hervarar Saga og Heiðreks* and other saga’s, which are mostly about heroes&#xD;&#xA; - the first books of the *Gesta Danorum* (a history of Denmark, originally written in Latin, but the first parts are set in mythological times and relate of Othinus/Odin, Balderus/Baldr, Hotherus/Höðr, Ollerus/Ullr and Horwendillus/Aurvandill; it offers a very different version of several stories known from other sources)&#xD;&#xA; - the prologue of *Sörla þáttr*, about Freya sleeping with four dwarfs to acquire a necklace, which is then stolen by Loki" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20919" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6309" RevisionGUID="b960e393-9491-4ce7-808d-819dc20a7e0a" CreationDate="2020-04-11T20:22:29.673" UserId="5503" Text="There is a Dutch folktale about a hunter who waits for a giant hare. Here is a tentative translation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A hunter once had heard rumors about an extraordinarily large hare, which every&#xD;&#xA;&gt; night around midnight came to a certain field in the region, and some strawlers claimed the animal&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was bulletproof: no one could hit this giant hare. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One night, the hunter&#xD;&#xA;&gt; decided to go and see what was the truth behind what he believed to be a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fairy tale. An hour before midnight he arrived there and found himself a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hiding place. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; After a while, an ordinary hare appeared, but the hunter&#xD;&#xA;&gt; didn’t shoot and just waited patiently instead. Half an hour later,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; another, normal hare passed by in the same way. The hunter still keeps&#xD;&#xA;&gt; waiting to catch a glimpse of the 'big animal'. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Then he hears the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; village clock striking midnight in the distance, and after a few&#xD;&#xA;&gt; moments he thinks he has been fooled. But what does he hear over&#xD;&#xA;&gt; there...? Look! There comes a giant hare very calmly jumping straight&#xD;&#xA;&gt; towards him. Now watch out... Bang! Bang! The hunter fires two shots. But&#xD;&#xA;&gt; indeed, the invulnerable hare isn’t wounded at all! The animal turns its head as if&#xD;&#xA;&gt; nothing had happened and shouts mockingly to the hunter: “Hey, are those&#xD;&#xA;&gt; two little ones far ahead?”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source: [http://www.verhalenbank.nl/items/show/50265][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.verhalenbank.nl/items/show/50265" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20923" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6311" RevisionGUID="d09c25be-5aba-4df0-b793-9cddff3b73a3" CreationDate="2020-04-13T14:47:59.420" UserId="6841" Text="The problem with the analysis of Eden vs Edin is using English words that look and sound similar. In doing so, the leap of a Hebrew translation from Sumerian assumes it sounds and looks the same therefore a mistake was made. No linguistic expert uses such methodology. Eden from the word Hebrew means pleasure or delight. Edin in Sumerian meant the plains. The words did not look alike as they do in English and they mean completely different things. &#xD;&#xA;Dating ancient languages is also a guessing game. Radiometric dating is very unreliable and evidence of the two languages being developed hundreds of years apart are scant. Egyptian, Sumerian, Akkadian and Hebrew all started around the same time as referenced by many other credible scholars such as Livingston,Aalders and Harrison. In order to make the myth narrative work for secularist, they must paint a picture of time in language evolution to support their theories. Only the Hebrew Bible gives us the first explanation of confounding languages. The Hebrew account also acknowledges the differing cultures that came after the flood account. From there came worshiping of idols along with rapidly changing cultures. The ancient Sumerian accounts give no such history and placate their stories on the environment making various half gods while never addressing the fall of man due to sin. The Hebrew Bible is loaded with prophecies come true while ancient texts of other religions claim no such authority. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20925" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="4680" RevisionGUID="88c7b856-a3cb-4448-8cd2-b6157c22eb37" CreationDate="2020-04-13T16:19:41.827" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="20927" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6166" RevisionGUID="fdc4490a-0f63-4f61-a4ec-76771df1b8a9" CreationDate="2020-04-13T22:24:01.140" UserId="3307" Comment="added 209 characters in body" Text="In [*Etymologies*][1] bk. 8 §11 &quot;Gods of the heathens (*De diis gentium*),&quot; p. 185 (PDF p. 199), St. Isidore of Seville writes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;29. By empty stories the pagans attempt to **connect&#xD;&#xA;some of the names of their gods to physical causes**, and&#xD;&#xA;they **interpret these names as involved in the origins of&#xD;&#xA;the elements**. But this has been entirely made up by poets,&#xD;&#xA;with the intention of enhancing their gods with certain&#xD;&#xA;figures of speech, while histories reveal these gods to have&#xD;&#xA;been lost and full of the infamy of shame. Indeed, when&#xD;&#xA;truth leaves off, room for fiction is wide open.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and [*ibid.*][1] bk. 3 § 50 &quot;The standing of stars (*De statu stellarum*)&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;21. […] The Romans […] would&#xD;&#xA;point out the stars in the sky, and say that this one was&#xD;&#xA;Jupiter’s and that one was Mercury’s&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, it seems that the mythological stories and gods came first, and they were only later applied to real physical entities, such as the sun, moon, and planets.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://isidore.co/calibre/#panel=book_details&amp;book_id=4516" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20928" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6311" RevisionGUID="5d48c2ea-7bcb-4b19-b37b-4419eea37e51" CreationDate="2020-04-14T16:05:29.537" UserId="5726" Comment="formatted for easier read" Text="The problem with the analysis of Eden vs Edin is using English words that look and sound similar. In doing so, the leap of a Hebrew translation from Sumerian assumes it sounds and looks the same therefore a mistake was made. No linguistic expert uses such methodology. Eden from the word Hebrew means pleasure or delight. Edin in Sumerian meant the plains. The words did not look alike as they do in English and they mean completely different things. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dating ancient languages is also a guessing game. Radiometric dating is very unreliable and evidence of the two languages being developed hundreds of years apart are scant. Egyptian, Sumerian, Akkadian and Hebrew all started around the same time as referenced by many other credible scholars such as Livingston,Aalders and Harrison. In order to make the myth narrative work for secularist, they must paint a picture of time in language evolution to support their theories. Only the Hebrew Bible gives us the first explanation of confounding languages. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Hebrew account also acknowledges the differing cultures that came after the flood account. From there came worshiping of idols along with rapidly changing cultures. The ancient Sumerian accounts give no such history and placate their stories on the environment making various half gods while never addressing the fall of man due to sin. The Hebrew Bible is loaded with prophecies come true while ancient texts of other religions claim no such authority. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20929" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6312" RevisionGUID="d87e387a-1148-4300-ae79-3d05e0ccc36c" CreationDate="2020-04-15T07:33:50.350" UserId="6844" Text="Is there a story from greek mythology which talks about the difficulty to change a bad habit? &#xD;&#xA;The character involved should be aware that it is a bad habit, but just isn't able to change it." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20930" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6312" RevisionGUID="d87e387a-1148-4300-ae79-3d05e0ccc36c" CreationDate="2020-04-15T07:33:50.350" UserId="6844" Text="Story from greek mythology talking about not being able to change bad habits" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20931" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6312" RevisionGUID="d87e387a-1148-4300-ae79-3d05e0ccc36c" CreationDate="2020-04-15T07:33:50.350" UserId="6844" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20932" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6313" RevisionGUID="9d8c8c67-e201-4061-a372-caa77d09d131" CreationDate="2020-04-15T11:04:02.613" UserId="5511" Text="The most famous bad habit of Greek mythology is probably Zeus' promiscuity. Besids 3 wives (Hera being the last), he had many supernatural affairs:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Aega&#xD;&#xA; - Ananke/Themis (3 offspring)&#xD;&#xA; - Aphrodite&#xD;&#xA; - Demeter&#xD;&#xA; - Dione/Thalassa&#xD;&#xA; - Eris&#xD;&#xA; - Eurynome (3 offspring)&#xD;&#xA; - Gaia (yes it’s true)&#xD;&#xA; - Leto (Apollo and Artemis)&#xD;&#xA; - Maia (Hermes)&#xD;&#xA; - Metis (Athena)&#xD;&#xA; - Mnemosyne (12, yes, 12 offspring)&#xD;&#xA; - Leda/Nemesis (Helen of Troy)&#xD;&#xA; - Persephone (2 offspring)&#xD;&#xA; - Selene (3 offspring)&#xD;&#xA; - Thalia&#xD;&#xA; - Themis&#xD;&#xA; - Eos&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and demigods &amp; humans:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Aegina (2)&#xD;&#xA; - Alcmene (Heracles aka Hercules)&#xD;&#xA; - Antiope (2)&#xD;&#xA; - Anaxithea&#xD;&#xA; - Asterope/Oceanid&#xD;&#xA; - Callisto&#xD;&#xA; - Calyce&#xD;&#xA; - Callirhoe (0)&#xD;&#xA; - Carme&#xD;&#xA; - Cassiopeia&#xD;&#xA; - Chaldene (2)&#xD;&#xA; - Danae&#xD;&#xA; - Dia&#xD;&#xA; - Elara&#xD;&#xA; - Electra (3)&#xD;&#xA; - Europa (6. Honestly, I’m tired.)&#xD;&#xA; - Eurymedousa&#xD;&#xA; - Eurydeia&#xD;&#xA; - Himalia (3)&#xD;&#xA; - Idaea&#xD;&#xA; - Iodame&#xD;&#xA; - Io (2)&#xD;&#xA; - Isonoe&#xD;&#xA; - Lamia&#xD;&#xA; - Lamia, daughter of Poseidon&#xD;&#xA; - Laodamia&#xD;&#xA; - Maera&#xD;&#xA; - Niobe (2)&#xD;&#xA; - Othreis&#xD;&#xA; - Pandora&#xD;&#xA; - Phthia&#xD;&#xA; - Plouto&#xD;&#xA; - Podarge (2)&#xD;&#xA; - Protogeneia (2)&#xD;&#xA; - Pyrrha&#xD;&#xA; - Semele&#xD;&#xA; - Taygete&#xD;&#xA; - Thyia (2)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20936" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6315" RevisionGUID="6e476d6a-8831-48f0-99d0-8ee649d286d5" CreationDate="2020-04-18T14:58:01.537" UserId="6626" Text="I was reading about the Aztec god Xolotl and how he was associated with [fire, lightning, and death][1]. He was also, apparently, [associated with Venus][2]. If this is true, is there any particular reason why the Aztecs associated this particular god with the planet Venus?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://study.com/academy/lesson/the-aztec-god-xolotl-mythology-history.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.azteccalendar.com/god/Xolotl.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20937" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6315" RevisionGUID="6e476d6a-8831-48f0-99d0-8ee649d286d5" CreationDate="2020-04-18T14:58:01.537" UserId="6626" Text="Why was the Aztec god Xolotl associated with Venus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20938" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6315" RevisionGUID="6e476d6a-8831-48f0-99d0-8ee649d286d5" CreationDate="2020-04-18T14:58:01.537" UserId="6626" Text="|underworld|aztec|planets|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20939" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6316" RevisionGUID="bafe0f78-1203-418f-9a94-36480da67fb5" CreationDate="2020-04-19T00:49:45.547" UserId="4568" Text="I've been trying to find information on the Akuma, the fire demon of Japanese folklore, for a manga I'm writing. But all of the sources I went to didn't provide enough detail. And I fear that without the knowledge I need, my depiction won't be as faithful. Could someone please help me?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20940" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6316" RevisionGUID="bafe0f78-1203-418f-9a94-36480da67fb5" CreationDate="2020-04-19T00:49:45.547" UserId="4568" Text="Where can I find a detailed description of the Akuma?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20941" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6316" RevisionGUID="bafe0f78-1203-418f-9a94-36480da67fb5" CreationDate="2020-04-19T00:49:45.547" UserId="4568" Text="|japanese|monsters|demons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20943" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6318" RevisionGUID="455e7a85-d750-4076-b58a-5b4c3ffec75e" CreationDate="2020-04-19T03:37:53.970" UserId="6626" Text="In Irish mythology, the fairies called the [Aos Si (the People of the Mound)][1], fairies would [protect their homes in fairy rings, hawthorn trees, and the woods][2]. They would also spend their time kidnapping trespassers or replacing children with changelings if they break fairy law. These fairies mainly came to the Mortal World between dusk and dawn. Some fairies like the [bean sidhe][3] would announce the coming death of mortals by wailing and keening.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/ffcc/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aos_S%C3%AD&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.dil.ie/37441" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20944" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6319" RevisionGUID="017b7a7d-76bb-4057-a392-209e8f277458" CreationDate="2020-04-19T04:02:15.840" UserId="6626" Text="No one knows specifically when Valhalla became a part of Norse mythology, but it was -as far as we know- first recorded in the stanzas of a 10th century poem commemorating the  Eric Bloodaxe known as [Eiríksmál][1]. This skaldic poem as compiled in [Fagrskinna][2], a latter work written in 1220 that is know as one of the kings' sagas, a series of old Norse tales and the story that [codified Valhalla for many Norse and non-Norse peoples][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eir%C3%ADksm%C3%A1l&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kings%27_sagas&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valhalla#Attestations" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20945" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6320" RevisionGUID="b02d78f4-a418-4020-9d32-1968e9d93bdb" CreationDate="2020-04-19T08:42:42.087" UserId="5726" Text="## Xolotl and Quetzalcoatl ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Xolotl was the twin brother of Quetzalcoatl, and where both associated with the twin phases of Venus as evening and morning star.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In their roles as evening and morning star both gods constitute inimically paired phases of Venus, with Quetzalcoatl acting as morning star was the harbinger of the Sun rising or &quot;re-birthing&quot;. His twin Xolotl acting as the evening star and harbinger of the Sun setting or &quot;dying&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Cycle of life and death ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this way both gods and their associated cycles of rebirth and dying complement and complete each other. &#xD;&#xA;They divide the life/death process of cyclical transformation into its two inimically partnered constitutive phases with the one leading for birth to death and the other from death to birth. Because of this collaboration they can accomplish what they could not on their own, the completion and re-initiation of the [Fifth Sun's][1] life/death cycle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Xolotl does Quetzalcoatl's bidding as his inimic partner in Mictlan, just as Quetzalcoatl does Xolotl's bidding as his inimic partner in the sky.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Xolotl helps the Sun return to life from its journey in the region of the dead&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Source:** [Aztec Philosophy: Understanding a World in Motion&#xD;&#xA;By James Maffie][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Suns#Fifth_sun&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.nl/books?id=2JK-AwAAQBAJ&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;dq=isbn:1457184265&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiJzZOQg_ToAhUH3aQKHWOzDoIQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20946" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6321" RevisionGUID="46aee36e-32bd-4749-969c-19ec5be9ff1a" CreationDate="2020-04-19T12:12:47.767" UserId="5511" Text="The word Akuma is the Japanese pronunciation of the Chinese characters 悪(惡)魔, the first character written slightly different in Japanese. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - 惡 (è) evil / fierce / vicious / ugly / coarse / to harm&#xD;&#xA; - 魔 (mó) magic&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Chinese Buddhism, these characters are the translation of the Sanskrit [राक्षस, rākṣasa] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakshasa)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20947" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6322" RevisionGUID="52601f1c-6aed-407a-a358-658603bd295b" CreationDate="2020-04-19T13:21:53.437" UserId="6712" Text="What are some reasonably well-informed scholarly studies (books, book-chapetrs, articles)&#xD;&#xA;on the Sumerian godly decrees ME,&#xD;&#xA;preferably containing the latest archeological evidence and interpetation?&#xD;&#xA;I'm interested in the worldview the MEs reveal, as regards the combination of&#xD;&#xA;imaginary symbolism and practical life. &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia lists 64 such MEs, but has little analysis on most of them.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_(mythology) &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So has there been any progress since Kramer's books of 1960's?&#xD;&#xA;Relevant books and articles abound, so I'm asking for some time-saving suggestions&#xD;&#xA;on the most useful &amp; complete material.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20948" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6322" RevisionGUID="52601f1c-6aed-407a-a358-658603bd295b" CreationDate="2020-04-19T13:21:53.437" UserId="6712" Text="Book recommendations for Sumerian ME decrees" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20949" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6322" RevisionGUID="52601f1c-6aed-407a-a358-658603bd295b" CreationDate="2020-04-19T13:21:53.437" UserId="6712" Text="|sumerian|babylonian|akkadian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20950" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6322" RevisionGUID="11d8dd4c-ea71-4716-801d-72c43151db97" CreationDate="2020-04-19T13:29:23.333" UserId="6712" Comment="edited body" Text="What are some reasonably well-informed scholarly studies (books, book-chapters, articles)&#xD;&#xA;on the Sumerian godly decrees ME,&#xD;&#xA;preferably containing the latest archeological evidence and interpetation?&#xD;&#xA;I'm interested in the worldview the MEs reveal, as regards the combination of&#xD;&#xA;imaginary symbolism and practical life. &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia lists 64 such MEs, but has little analysis on most of them.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_(mythology) &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So has there been any progress since Kramer's books of 1960's?&#xD;&#xA;Books and articles on Mesopotamian themes abound, so I'm asking for some time-saving suggestions&#xD;&#xA;on the most useful &amp; complete material.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20951" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6316" RevisionGUID="e6e93a6d-f718-467e-b130-b80459fd094b" CreationDate="2020-04-19T15:55:31.557" UserId="4568" Comment="added 303 characters in body" Text="I've been trying to find information on the Akuma, the fire demon of Japanese folklore, for a manga I'm writing. But all of the sources I went to didn't provide enough detail. And I fear that without the knowledge I need, my depiction won't be as faithful. Could someone please help me?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here are some of the sites I found so far.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source 1: &#xD;&#xA;https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akuma_(folklore)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source 2: &#xD;&#xA;https://occult-world.com/akuma/&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source 3: &#xD;&#xA;https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/57512-akuma/&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source 4: &#xD;&#xA;https://www.godchecker.com/japanese-mythology/AKUMA/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20958" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5459" RevisionGUID="14110da9-2b77-43ff-9785-c91b8b4bb721" CreationDate="2020-04-20T16:43:21.703" UserId="5726" Comment="some tweaks" Text="The earliest one I could find was [Eugène Vintras][1](page only available in french) . &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Vintras was a French Gnostic revivalist from the around the middle of the 19th century **(1807–1875)**.&#xD;&#xA;He preached the end of the world, and claimed he had received messages from the Archangel Michael and that he himself was a reincarnation of Elijah. Vintras was condemned by the Vatican, and after his condemnation he started using an upside down cross. The mention of this being satanic comes from [Éliphas Lévi] [2] (an occultist himself) stating that Vintras' inverted cross was &quot;**indicative of satanic influences**&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[&lt;sub&gt;Cult and Ritual Abuse: Narratives, Evidence, and Healing Approaches, 3rd Edition&#xD;&#xA;By James Randall Noblitt Ph.D., Pamela Perskin Noblitt&lt;/sub&gt;][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Vintras, following further attacks from the Church, adopted the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **inverted cross** as the symbol of the new dispensation of which he was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the prophet, **inverted because the Reign of the Suffering Christ had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; been superseded by the Reign of the Holy Spirit of Love.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;[&lt;sub&gt;Blood in the City: Violence and Revelation in Paris, 1789-1945&#xD;&#xA;By Richard D. E. Burton, Professor of French and Francophone Studies Richard D E Burton&lt;/sub&gt;][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;image courtesy of Wikipedia&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Vintras][5]][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also a [question][6] similar to yours on the Christianity SE with more sources.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eug%C3%A8ne_Vintras#/media/File:Vintras,_Eugene.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89liphas_L%C3%A9vi&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://books.google.nl/books?id=JhiDBAAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA161&amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://books.google.nl/books?id=qy1Wp2T3KqgC&amp;pg=PA164&amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/Vintras%2C_Eugene.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://christianity.stackexchange.com/a/45537/44098" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20959" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6324" RevisionGUID="d2d5e71e-5851-4061-a843-046bc8edf497" CreationDate="2020-04-20T23:48:25.857" UserId="6626" Text="Aztec mythology is polytheistic, yet I read in class that Aztec philosophy was monist - a philosophy based around oneness, that all things are connected to one item or source, [sometimes represented as a single metaphysical being][1]. Is it true that Aztec beliefs were monist. If it is true, how did the Aztecs hold monist beliefs while still believing in multiple different natural forces/gods and are there any Aztec mythological stories that have monism as a core theme? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monism" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20960" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6324" RevisionGUID="d2d5e71e-5851-4061-a843-046bc8edf497" CreationDate="2020-04-20T23:48:25.857" UserId="6626" Text="How does the concept of monism apply to Aztec philosophy and myths?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20961" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6324" RevisionGUID="d2d5e71e-5851-4061-a843-046bc8edf497" CreationDate="2020-04-20T23:48:25.857" UserId="6626" Text="|aztec|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20962" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6325" RevisionGUID="01aba709-262d-4e65-a653-21880d8aa2b9" CreationDate="2020-04-21T10:38:06.920" UserId="5511" Text="Aztec priests had a panentheistic view of religion but the popular Aztec religion maintained polytheism. Priests saw the different gods as aspects of the singular and transcendent unity of Teotl but the masses were allowed to practice polytheism without understanding the true, unified nature of their Aztec gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is not an exception in the evolution of polytheistic cultures. Judaism was originally polytheistic as well but evolved into monotheism, though many OT texts still echo polytheism. Arguably, the only surviving religion that regressed from monism into esoteric polytheism is Christianity, through the concept of the trinity." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20963" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6326" RevisionGUID="2e482cc5-e5d3-4a1e-b5f8-e2336be71683" CreationDate="2020-04-21T10:47:35.203" UserId="6871" Text="This is the front and back of a t-shirt that was bought in Colombia (almost certainly Bogota, but just possibly Cartagena). Stylistically to my naive layman eyes, they both look consistent with Muisca or Tairona art. Are they identifiable entities in known pre-Columbian mythology? Or are they tourist trap nonsense? (even so, one would think it might have been easier to copy a pre-existing image).&#xD;&#xA;[![Front][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;[![Back][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/yNdMX.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/YRKnb.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20964" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6326" RevisionGUID="2e482cc5-e5d3-4a1e-b5f8-e2336be71683" CreationDate="2020-04-21T10:47:35.203" UserId="6871" Text="Are these images of identifiable pre-Columbian mythic entities?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20965" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6326" RevisionGUID="2e482cc5-e5d3-4a1e-b5f8-e2336be71683" CreationDate="2020-04-21T10:47:35.203" UserId="6871" Text="|myth-identification|native-american|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20969" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6328" RevisionGUID="a78a9ba0-1963-485f-a4b7-016f02abb9c5" CreationDate="2020-04-21T11:09:53.180" UserId="6869" Text="Even before the internet, information was being faithfully replicated through global communication networks like [faxes][1]. Then they replicated through [email chains][2], and finally broke free of a specific application thanks to copy and paste functionality ideally represented in the class of internet folklore called [copypastas][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The practice is still, if not more important today,fter presumably being aware of malicious or erroneous information being disseminated through forward functionality in their application, [Whatsapp placed limits on forwarding.][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks to the self-documenting nature of internet communications we now have an extensive archive to study the organic evolution of these stories and myths. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What does that archive reveal about the folklore creation process and its spread? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faxlore&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_letter&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copypasta&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/7/21211371/whatsapp-message-forwarding-limits-misinformation-coronavirus-india" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20970" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6328" RevisionGUID="a78a9ba0-1963-485f-a4b7-016f02abb9c5" CreationDate="2020-04-21T11:09:53.180" UserId="6869" Text="What does internet-transmitted folklore reveal about how we generate and spread it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20971" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6328" RevisionGUID="a78a9ba0-1963-485f-a4b7-016f02abb9c5" CreationDate="2020-04-21T11:09:53.180" UserId="6869" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20972" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6326" RevisionGUID="345a46dd-2035-4558-8fcf-bf8879f2afd7" CreationDate="2020-04-21T12:23:16.620" UserId="1241" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="This is the front and back of a t-shirt that was bought in Colombia (almost certainly Bogota, but just possibly Cartagena). Stylistically to my naive layman eyes, they both look consistent with Muisca or Tairona art. Are they identifiable entities in known pre-Columbian mythology? Or are they tourist trap nonsense? (even so, one would think it might have been easier to copy a pre-existing image):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Front][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Back][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/yNdMX.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/YRKnb.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20973" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6329" RevisionGUID="c7ab7a2e-0e8a-4cd8-a991-bb47070a826f" CreationDate="2020-04-21T12:49:18.053" UserId="1241" Text="What are, if any, the most plausible mythical origins and legends surrounding the unreadable book also known as the [**Voynich manuscript**][1]? What do legends, folklore or myths have to say as to what is actually believed to be contained in this historical document?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Voynich manuscript is an illustrated codex hand-written in an unknown writing system. The vellum on which it is written has been carbon-dated to the early 15th century (1404–1438), and it may have been composed in Italy during the Italian Renaissance. The manuscript is named after Wilfrid Voynich, a Polish-Samogitian book dealer who purchased it in 1912. Some of the pages are missing, with around 240 remaining. The text is written from left to right, and most of the pages have illustrations or diagrams. Some pages are foldable sheets.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Voynich manuscript has been studied by many professional and amateur cryptographers, including American and British codebreakers from both World War I and World War II. **The manuscript has never been demonstrably deciphered, and the mystery of its meaning and origin has excited the popular imagination, making it the subject of novels and speculation.** None of the many hypotheses proposed over the last hundred years has been independently verified. In 1969, the Voynich manuscript was donated by Hans P. Kraus to Yale University's Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voynich_manuscript" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20974" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6329" RevisionGUID="c7ab7a2e-0e8a-4cd8-a991-bb47070a826f" CreationDate="2020-04-21T12:49:18.053" UserId="1241" Text="The unreadable book: Voynich manuscript?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20975" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6329" RevisionGUID="c7ab7a2e-0e8a-4cd8-a991-bb47070a826f" CreationDate="2020-04-21T12:49:18.053" UserId="1241" Text="|folklore|origins|history|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20976" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="6328" RevisionGUID="31bceed3-48f9-43db-a2ac-246de927e66c" CreationDate="2020-04-21T13:57:08.573" UserId="6869" Comment="edited title" Text="What does internet-transmitted folklore reveal about how we generate and spread folkore?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20977" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6330" RevisionGUID="c3e18f53-2e02-47c1-9aaa-c6bf7019a8de" CreationDate="2020-04-21T17:22:23.510" UserId="6872" Text="In some of the stories Poseidon was also not eaten by Chronos he was transformed into a horse and grew up running the planes (which was probably originally what the Indo-European horse lords brought with them as they spread throughout western Europe and into the Greek peninsula.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He is a god of horses which you can see when you read Homer and Virgil. In many of the earlier epithets he was called the earth shaker and god of chariots which of course when an army of horsemen or even a group of wild horses run you feel the vibrations in the ground and hear the rumble.  (Scary stuff I'd imagine) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;His child was the horse with wings Pegasus who helped his twin brother Bellerephon on his adventures. It is strange that a horse would have wings and fly unless you remember that most of the early Indo European invasion success was due to horses and their chief god and war god would be strongly associated with horses and as they were nomadic or semi nomadic people the sky and the horse could be easily linked. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Poseidon was also a god of rain which indicates that early on he may have been a sky god, and it is no accident that his consort is the Goddess of the earth Demeter (Cybele) as the covers the earth and crops grow forth.  &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;These myths aren't as simple as we like to make them out to be. They were orally transmitted and had been around for thousands of years meaning they evolved into what we have now through syncretism war and trade. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is strong evidence Zeus started off as a Cthonic god as he has many aspects that resemble Amun the hidden one from Egypt.  In fact Zeus could easily have been borrowed from Egypt and his cult slowly took on the aspects that once belonged to Poseidon." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20979" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6332" RevisionGUID="fab7c0e3-8942-4112-b182-a37780410f06" CreationDate="2020-04-22T10:51:36.220" UserId="5511" Text="The &quot;lore&quot; in folklore originally refers to orally conveyed cultural knowledge and traditions. Either this orally conveyed information pre-dates that culture developing writing, or the &quot;folk&quot; (i.e. the common people) were not educated in the writing system. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore, the generation and spreading of folklore that originiated in an oral tradition or the illiterate population of a culture is very similar to the generation and spreading of religious concepts, and in many cases they are arguably of the exact same origin. You can thus refer to the much larger body of literary crtiticism on religuous texts and apply their principles to folklore texts, as the principles and challenges will be very similar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anthropology and historical literary criticism have given us ample evidence that even when the oral stories were eventually written down, oral traditions are an extremely unreliable source for determining what the first oral original story was like. In the case of Christianity for example, we have found many (parts of) manuscripts that contradict each other. The New Testament has been preserved in more manuscripts than any other ancient work, having over 5,800 complete or fragmented Greek manuscripts, 10,000 Latin manuscripts and 9,300 manuscripts in various other ancient languages. You can take this as an analogy to how an internet technology based piece of folklore starts living its own life and how with every edition and comment it is distorted, they main difference being the timespan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another principle difference between oral and written information is that written information traditionally required contemplation, whereas oral communication is much more direct and influenced by emotions and preconceptions. Arguably, social network communication, even though it is written, is much closer to a direct emotional response than it is to a contemplative reaction. In this sense, you can find many parallels between anthropological studies of oral traditions and social network communications, the main difference being the verbatim &quot;forward&quot; option that oral traditions cannot reliably reproduce.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20981" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6334" RevisionGUID="3d1484ef-4f52-4f3e-8038-c13bbb21c996" CreationDate="2020-04-23T15:35:58.670" UserId="6626" Text="I read about a sect of Early Christianity called the Adamites who claimed to have regained the innocence that Adam had in the Garden of Eden before he ate the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge. Has there ever been any story in biblical text or Christian mythology (ex: Dante's Inferno) where a man or woman regains the purity or innocence mankind had before they were cast out of the garden?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20982" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6334" RevisionGUID="3d1484ef-4f52-4f3e-8038-c13bbb21c996" CreationDate="2020-04-23T15:35:58.670" UserId="6626" Text="Any stories in Bible/Christian mythology about person regaining Adam's primeval innocence?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20983" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6334" RevisionGUID="3d1484ef-4f52-4f3e-8038-c13bbb21c996" CreationDate="2020-04-23T15:35:58.670" UserId="6626" Text="|christianity|bible|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20984" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6334" RevisionGUID="26804915-7933-4025-bfec-09f22f5986bd" CreationDate="2020-04-23T22:08:17.127" UserId="6626" Comment="added 56 characters in body" Text="I read about a sect of [Early Christianity called the Adamites who claimed to have regained the innocence that Adam had in the Garden of Eden before he ate the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge][1]. Has there ever been any story in biblical text or Christian mythology (ex: Dante's Inferno) where a man or woman regains the purity or innocence mankind had before they were cast out of the garden?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamites" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20985" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6285" RevisionGUID="356df7f0-d650-4a93-a67d-6c109ce1f4d4" CreationDate="2020-04-24T00:11:53.203" UserId="5710" Comment="added 62 characters in body" Text="Unfortunately, almost all we know about it is written in texts that were written after the viking age, so it is difficult to say that we have the full picture of what old norse people believed. No text mention the goddesses during *Ragnarǫk* , the only gods that are mentioned are Odin (*Óðinn*), who fights against Fenrir; Frey (*Freyr*), who fights against Surt (*Surtr*); Thor (*Þórr*), who fights against the Midgard Serpent (*Miðgarðsormr*); and (according to Snorri), Heimdall (*Heimdallr*), who fights against Loki. Snorri also says that Garm (*Garmr*) and Týr kill each other. And that's pretty much all we know about gods during the &quot;God's fate&quot;." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20986" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6335" RevisionGUID="59af2234-c0bf-40e8-b164-06146bbe80b6" CreationDate="2020-04-24T05:59:00.750" UserId="4152" Text="Since the V.M. has been extensively studied, as far as its physical properties go, I don't think much can be said for &quot;mythical origins&quot; of the book. It's known to be old and most likely made in Europe somewhere. A reasonable chain of ownership has been established for at least some stretches of the book's existence. Its origins and history are thus more *mysterious* than mythical.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the contents, I'm not so sure I'd consider any of the supposed translations to be matters of either mythology or folklore as such so much as, to borrow a phrase, &quot;aspirational, circular, self-fulfilling nonsense&quot;. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20987" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6336" RevisionGUID="4dd1cc2a-c1b1-44dd-9528-6b2e08694ee0" CreationDate="2020-04-24T11:05:41.203" UserId="5511" Text="This concept does not originate in Christian mythology, not even in Judaic mythology. It is &quot;borrowed&quot; from older stories:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - in the Sumerian *Enki and Ninhursag*, we find the concept of a primordial place where sickness and death were unknown&#xD;&#xA; - In Greek mythology, we have the *Garden of the Hesperides*, with its golden fruit&#xD;&#xA; - From the post-Akkadian period (c. 23rd-22nd century BCE), a seal has been recovered having two facing figures (male and female) seated on each side of a tree, holding out their hands to the fruit, while between their backs is a serpent&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Stone relief from the throne room of Ashurnasirpal II. Nimrud (ancient Kalhu), northern Iraq. Neo-Assyrian, 870–860 BC.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A part of the Chritian mythology that is often overlooked is that there is mention of two trees: the tree of knowledge and the tree of life and death:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And out of the ground the Lord God made every tree grow that is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; evil. Gen 2:9 (NKJV)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A number of Liberal scholars embracing an Anthropological point of view over the past 100 years have noted that motfis associated with Adapa (Adapa and the South Wind Myth) and Enkidu (The Epic of Gilgamesh) appear to have been recast and assimilated to Genesis' Adam, a notion I am in agreement with. For example, by 1899 Professor Morris Jastrow Jr., of the University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia (a Jewish Rabbi) had realized that Eden's two trees were recasts of the &quot;bread of death&quot; and &quot;bread of life&quot; appearing in the Adapa and South Wind Myth (he realized that motifs from the Epic of Gilgamesh and Adapa had been combined and recast as Adam and Eve).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Gilgamesh epos is all about discovering the secret of immortality.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the Adamites, this gives us another connection to Babylonian mythology. The Babylonians held that two races of man existed: the *Adamu* and *Sarku*, in the same manner that two races are mentioned in [Genesis 6 1-4](https://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/6.htm).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/eBIfG.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20988" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6337" RevisionGUID="4fc10d10-dcc1-4b45-9214-8bd8a8304f96" CreationDate="2020-04-24T19:28:14.313" UserId="6626" Text="Some people believe the association began with the [Madhwa Brahmins subcaste of Hindu society][1]. They believed that the Hindu philosopher [Madhvacharya][2] was a earthly avatar ([the third avatar to be exact][3]) of the [wind god Vayu on Earth who was supposed to teach worthy souls to worship Vishnu][4]. This belief by members of the subcaste that the philosopher was literally an avatar for the wind god early in his career might have influenced him to see such an association to the point where [he even proclaimed as much in his own poetics later in life][5]. There is also the claim that he once had a dream or version during his [life where he saw Vishnu in a dream][6] and confirmed what the early Brahmins believed: he was an avatar of Vayu and if Vishnu was telling him all this and was so close to his teachings, then Vayu and Vishnu must have some deep connection (note that this is still scholarly speculation: even my sources are not 100% sure if this is what influenced Madhvacharya to put this association in his teachings, but it is the most accurate guess they have).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhwa_Brahmins&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhvacharya&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vayu&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://web.archive.org/web/20160924052648/http://raghavendramutt.org/articles/balittha-suktha-text&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://isbnsearch.org/isbn/9780227172360&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://isbnsearch.org/isbn/9780791407967" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20989" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3316" RevisionGUID="3f36f298-081a-445b-8893-8bd9085de869" CreationDate="2020-04-24T21:58:41.120" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected spelling &amp; fixed grammar" Text="THE NAMES OF THE PAIR&#xD;&#xA;=======&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Next to their pictures on the papyrus, the divinities' names (or epithets?) are written in *Medw Neter*, the &quot;Words of God,&quot; i.e. hieroglyphs by their designation in the language of Ancient Egypt. The god towards the left is called &quot;Pure/Special/Holy *Ba*.&quot; The other one, towards the right, is called &quot;Perfect *Ba Shut*.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In 1912 the British Museum published Sir Ernest Alfred Thompson Wallis Budge's book, all on this subject, titled ***The Greenfield Papyrus in the British Museum**: The Funerary Papyrus of Princess Nesitanebtȧshru, Daughter of Painetchem II and Nesi-Khensu, and Priestess of Amen-Rā at Thebes, About B.C. 970*. In it Budge supplies a detailed description of every &quot;collotype facsimile&quot; that was made into image-plates from the contents of the papyrus.&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The image you're asking about is numbered &quot;Sheet 87&quot; and shows up on &quot;Plate CVI,&quot; which is displayed on [p. 358](https://archive.org/stream/greenfieldpapyru00ness#page/n357/mode/2up) and supplied with a description and interpretation on [pp. 79-80](https://archive.org/stream/greenfieldpapyru00ness#page/78/mode/2up): &#xD;&#xA;&gt; On the right of Shu&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; stands a ram-headed god, with his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hands raised, who is described as the &quot;perfect soul Shut (?)&quot;...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Budge then indicates that this is a translation of the line of text directly above this character's head, beneath Nut's mouth.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;[![Perfect Ba Shut][1]][1]   &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Budge most commonly translates *ba* as &quot;soul&quot; (although [Ancient Egyptian psychological anthropology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_concept_of_the_soul) is about seven times more complex than the English word &quot;soul&quot; might suggest, but he evidently does it in order to provide a more familiar term for his readers). The question-mark applied to the word *Shut* implies that he is unaware of what it signifies. Perhaps it is the name of this &quot;perfect soul/*ba*&quot; (and might be a word related to *Shu*?).&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In front of Shu&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; stands a similar ram-headed god, who is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; called...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;as his label [![Holy Ba][2]][2] indicates, &quot;Special *Ba*&quot; or rather, as Budge puts it, &quot;Holy Soul&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;See the column of text directly behind this god, in front of Nut's shins. His name appears at the top of the column, which is actually the end of this phrase (which has been written from bottom to top).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;*(Here's a detail of the relevant portion of the image, for easier reference.)*&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;In between Shu and Special-*Ba* is another piece of text which says &quot;Rā Sets in the Land of Life.&quot; Rā is, however, absent from the image, as Budge notes at the end of his breakdown.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Next to the arm of the goddess, directly behind Perfect-*Ba-Shut*, is a text column which reads &quot;The Sky, the Support of Rā: Nut, the Mother of the *Neteru*&quot; (the *Neteru* being the Gods).&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Some papyri and other documents represent the sun sailing over&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the back of Nut in two boats, one being the boat of the morning sun,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and the other the boat of the evening sun, and elsewhere we see the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; god Shu holding up the boat of the sun, with the solar disk on the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; horizon. On the left, a little above the hips of the goddess, facing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the god of Eternity, is another ram-headed god, who kneels with his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hands raised in adoration of the goddess.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;*This* ram-headed god's name is, according to the three-line block of text directly in front of him, the &quot;*Ba* Which Embraces All Things.&quot; The &quot;God of Eternity,&quot; pictured just in front of Nut's head, is called Ḥeḥ, and, more precisely, he represents the figure of a million (or a plurality of millions of) years [= the literal meaning of his name] rather than eternity.&lt;/sup&gt;    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In 1920, *An Egyptian Hieropglyphic Dictionary*, another book by Budge, was published.&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; I've looked through it for a straight trans*liter*ation, rather than a translation, of the names he provides for the two ram-headed deities in question from *The Greenfield Papyrus*. Nothing I've found comes close to anything like &quot;Perfect *Ba Shut*,&quot; but there are two different names which he says both mean &quot;Holy Soul,&quot; both of which appear on [p. 199 of the dictionary](https://archive.org/stream/Budge.AnEgyptianHieroglyphicDictionary.vol.1#page/n353/mode/2up). The first of them, **Ba-sheps**, he says is &quot;a title of Osiris,&quot; while the second one, **Ba-tcheser**, is, he explains, &quot;a form of Osiris.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Neither of these, however, seems to refer to the &quot;Holy *Ba*&quot; in our scene. The hieroglyphs for *ba* are the only portions of the words which match. Incidentally the (completely theriomorphic) ram standing directly in front of Nut (by her arm, below Ḥeḥ) is labelled ***Ba-shep*** (still in hieroglyphs which fail to correspond to the characters we're looking at). The difference between this and *Ba-shep**s*** seems to give Budge pause about what this word means but his guess is that it might also mean &quot;Holy Soul.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Additionally, on Sheet 86 of the papyrus (the sheet immediately preceding ours), Princess Nesitanebtȧshru appears kneeling before and saluting yet another ram-headed god, this one wielding a sceptre, wearing the *Atef* crown, and named **Ba-ṭesher**. The dissimilarity between this name and *Ba-tcheser* is very subtle but, going by Budge, it makes all the difference, since he translates it as the &quot;Red Ram&quot;, so apparently not the same as the aforementioned &quot;*Holy-Soul* form of Osiris&quot;, unless, i.e. we are to understand &quot;Holy Soul&quot; and &quot;Red Ram&quot; as puns for each other, or as otherwise-associated concepts. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;SIGNIFICATION&#xD;&#xA;=======&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Budge does not supply an explanation for who or what Special-*Ba* and Perfect-*Ba-Shut* are supposed to be beyond &quot;ram-headed gods&quot;, but as it happens, in Ancient Egyptian the word *ba* also means &quot;ram&quot; or &quot;sheep&quot; (see p. 200 of Budge's dictionary), which would explain why there are so many rams and ram-headed men depicted all over the Greenfield Papyrus with names that have to do with the *ba*-soul (and considering also that this is essentially a comic-book illustrating Nesitanebtȧshru's afterlife sojourn).           &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wind was known as *Ba-en-Shu*, the &quot;Soul of Shu&quot; (see the afore-cited p. 200 again). Perhaps Special-*Ba* and Perfect-*Ba-Shut* are projections of Shu. Shmoop, however, in its [short article on this image](https://www.shmoop.com/geb-nut/photo-shu-gets-some-help.html), entitled &quot;Shu Gets Some Help,&quot; has a different explanation for this:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; What happens when Shu gets too tired to hold Nut up? He gets help from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Heh (eternity) spirits, so they hold *him* up!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This interpretation of what these figures represent is perhaps not unreasonable. As mentioned above, Ḥeḥ is the man appearing as the fourth figure from the right in the topmost row of your image. Directly below him, in the middle row, is the ram named Ba-shep. Directly across from him (and facing him), past Nut's back, is the ram-headed man named *Ba*-Which-Embraces-All-Things. Beyond this, however, it is not at all obvious to me how Shu's companions here are connected to Ḥeḥ.        &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similar compositions of these figures occur with some variations in other funerary iconography from the period. On [the coffin of Tanakhtnettahat](https://www.flickr.com/photos/101561334@N08/10450947674/in/photostream/), for instance, Shu is accompanied, instead, by a pair of ram-headed *birds* instead of his more humanoid associates. These ram-headed versions of the birds are, however, always each equipped with a pair of human arms. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - An example of this, from a different piece of artwork, is shown below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Shu, Geb &amp; Nut][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;In her book *Egyptian Iconography on Syro-Palestinian Cylinder Seals of the Middle Bronze Age* (on p. 191), Beatrice Teissier&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; says that in the New Kingdom, which ended just before the dynastic era presently concerning us, &quot;Amun-Re and Re-Atum... were represented as ram-headed birds.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In his 1904 book *The Gods of the Egyptians, or Studies in Egyptian Mythology*, Budge illustrates a reconstruction of such a scene, in which Shu's companions are fully avian birds (on an insert sheet between pp. 96 &amp; 97).&lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Shu, Geb &amp; Nut][5]][5]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*This scene has morning and evening Rā sailing along Nut's legs and arms in the boat(s) described in an earlier quote above from* The Greenfield Papyrus. Shmoop [identifies](https://www.shmoop.com/geb-nut/photo-a-sky-full-gods.html) the two birds here as hawks representing Horus the Elder and Horus the Younger.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - A coffin at the Egypt Centre Museum of Antiquities in Swansea has a third variation with the two ram-headed companions *themselves* attended by a pair of part-bird figures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][6]][6]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Reconstruction of a fairly grungy [original](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-vwUoYnPjLGo/VOcLKvSSGUI/AAAAAAAAAUc/Iqxishv1_RI/s1600/separation1.jpg)*&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In a fourth alternative, Shu's sidekicks are a pair of what look like *ba*-souls, which typically are represented as human-headed birds and, in similarity to the ram-headed birds, they each have a pair of human arms too.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;[![Museo Egizio Torino][7]][7]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*(Notice how Nesitanebtȧshru's* ba *appears in this part-bird form twice in the scene from your Question, in the middle and bottom rows to the right of the image.)*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Fifthly and finally, on the coffin of Nespawershefyt, the two human-headed (and bearded), avian *ba* figures appear together with Shu *in addition to* the two ram-headed men, making for a whole lot of fairly inconclusive evidence regarding whether the ram-headed men or ram-headed birds are supposed to signify the same thing as the human-headed birds whenever each of these pairs appears without any other pair accompanying Shu.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Coffin of Nespawershepi][8]][8] &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*On [another part of this coffin](http://www-img.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/img/ant/ant47/E.1.1822.c_08_200604_adn21_dc2_edit.jpg) Shu is accompanied only by a pair of the human-headed birds.*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;KHNUM?&#xD;&#xA;=======&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is one other interpretation in circulation which appears to be relatively popular. The website GodElectric.org, as well as Rolf Werner Friedrich Gross and Ottar Vendel, all say that the pair of ram-headed men is the god Khnum appearing in duplicate. This is understandable considering that although there are several ram-headed Egyptian gods, the breed of ram appearing either completely theriomorphically or as the head of numerous deities in these Dynasty-XXI artifacts looks most like the Khnum ram. However, if Budge is to be believed, they seem to tend rather towards being hypostases of Asar (Osiris).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moustafa Gadalla&lt;sup&gt;7&lt;/sup&gt; makes these remarks in his book *Egyptian Divinities: The All Who Are The One*:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Khnum represents the embodiment of the creative force of Re ... Khnum&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is depicted in some contexts as a ram-headed bird. This bird represents&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Ba of Ra [Re]—The All encompassing Ba—The Divine Soul.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Notes**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Budge, E.A.W. 1912. *The Greenfield Papyrus in the British Museum*. The British Museum, London.&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. What Budge really means here is, rather: To the right of the printed *image* away from Shu (i.e. the reader's right), which is actually = Shu's left-hand side.&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. Now to Shu's actual right-hand side, but to the reader's left.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;4. Budge, E.A.W. 1920. *An Egyptian Hieroglyphic Dictionary, With an Index of English Words, King List and Geographical List with Indexes, List of Hieroglyphic Characters, Coptic and Semitic Alphabets, Etc. Volume 1*. John Murray, London.&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;5. Teissier, B. 1996. *Egyptian Iconography on Syro-Palestinian Cylinder Seals of the Middle Bronze Age*. University Press; Göttingen: Vandenhoeck &amp; Ruprecht, Fribourg, Switzerland.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;6. Budge, E.A.W. 1904. *The Gods of the Egyptians, or Studies in Egyptian Mythology*. Methuen &amp; Co., London.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;7. Gadalla, M. 2017. *Egyptian Divinities: The All Who Are The One*. Tehuti Research Foundation, Greensboro, NC.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/1iBaN.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/6wnrZ.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/yCMLu.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/RqAf1.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/VPwCA.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/aaeQg.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/2WpJR.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/PEslo.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20990" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6338" RevisionGUID="a904ad88-ebb1-4c41-bc27-bb4edd5bf36f" CreationDate="2020-04-25T09:10:48.840" UserId="6883" Text="Odin doesnt send anyone to Helheim.Only the dishonarable dead go there.Odin wnts gods to win clearly.He wouldnt want monsters  to win and destroy things and cause destruction.He is rooting for his side so he only sends the dishonarable dead there." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20991" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2853" RevisionGUID="5f15a4b7-c3e2-4281-b981-9a7cfe639179" CreationDate="2020-04-27T09:08:31.750" UserId="3315" Comment="grammar corrections" Text="&gt; The taskmaster in the story of Cupid and Psyche was Cupid's mother, the love goddess Venus or Aphrodite. Venus had never liked Psyche, so the opportunity of putting her to a series of tests gave Venus a chance to demand the seemingly impossible. In order for Psyche to win back her husband, Cupid, Venus set 4 seemingly impossible tasks before Psyche:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1. sorting out a huge pile of seeds &#xD;&#xA;2. retrieving the Golden Fleece,&#xD;&#xA;3. filling a flask from the water that fills the River Styx, and &#xD;&#xA;4. returning from the Underworld with a box of the beauty ointment of Proserpina (aka Persephone).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Source: [What Were the 4 Tasks Psyche Had to Complete?](https://www.thoughtco.com/what-were-the-4-tasks-psyche-had-to-complete-117893)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are more details behind it and how she has done it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also this [video][1] from TED-Ed telling a smaller part of the story. (Which does not include the 4th task, I don't know why but it doesn't.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why did Venus ask her to do these specific tests and what has Psyche learned from them? I want to know the meaning behind these tests. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://youtu.be/Gjj_-CPxjCM" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20992" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2853" RevisionGUID="5f15a4b7-c3e2-4281-b981-9a7cfe639179" CreationDate="2020-04-27T09:08:31.750" Comment="Proposed by 3315 approved by 2682, 5726 edit id of 1807" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20996" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6339" RevisionGUID="6b8624b9-86f0-4c42-ba4e-04d42d58a76c" CreationDate="2020-04-30T00:33:30.410" UserId="6895" Text="**Chaos** was male, though the original legend didn't specify a gender, in later tales, he was stated as male, though many sources get this wrong such as greekmythology.com and britannica.com which both state Chaos as female, I got this info from timelessmyths.com, the mythology is complicated." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20997" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6214" RevisionGUID="4d93d7b6-01f1-4929-a67a-499eb74587a8" CreationDate="2020-04-30T08:01:35.117" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="20998" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4944" RevisionGUID="914cb4d2-c383-4ecb-9c0a-528ef779e239" CreationDate="2020-04-30T09:03:04.077" UserId="2682" Comment="added info &amp; tweaked some details" Text="**Hyginus' *Fabulae***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Theoi.com has two Pages on Perseus. On the second Page, the last chapter (which is followed by some appendices) is entitled [&quot;The Death of Perseus&quot;](http://www.theoi.com/Heros/Perseus2.html#Death). It is very brief, listing the only two characters involved, aside from Perseus, and these are Proitos [Proetus] and Megapenthes, which listing is followed by this blurb:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The only reference to Perseus' death is a very obscure legend&#xD;&#xA;&gt; recounted by Hyginus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After that it quotes from the relevant portion of Mary Grant's 1960 English translation of *Fabulae* 244, which originally is entitled *Qui cognatos suos occiderunt*, &quot;Men Who Killed [Their] Relatives,&quot; and is basically a quick roll-call of fifteen culprits who fit this bill. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Right in the middle of the list: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Megapenthes Proeti filius Perseum Iovis et Danaes filium, propter&#xD;&#xA;&gt; patris mortem&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;which is translated by R. Scott Smith &amp; Stephen M. Trzaskoma&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; as the name of the killer followed by that of his victim:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Megapenthes son of Proetus: Perseus, son of Jupiter and Danae, in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; revenge for his father's death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And that is all that Hyginus has to say on the matter, which brevity is probably what *Theoi* means when it calls the story &quot;obscure&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the sentence immediately after what you have quoted from William Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology, it says that the scholion on Euripides' *Phoinissai* 1109 describes Proitos as having been expelled from Argolis (presumably by Perseus) and having ended up in Thebes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This appears to be a different version of Proitos' fate from the one in which his great-nephew Perseus kills him, which then would preclude his son needing to avenge his death because Perseus isn't responsible for that in the scholion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But then the scholion doesn't offer thereafter an account of Perseus' death. Strangely enough, though, Hyginus, earlier in the *Fabulae*, has already enumerated Perseus in his list of sixteen &quot;Mortals Who Were Made Immortal&quot; as his Chapter 224 is entitled. The fourth profile on this list reads:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Perseus, the son of Jove and Danae, who was admitted into the stars.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This need not be a contradiction, however, as several others who were made into constellations, like Perseus was, were originally mortal characters who died first before being lifted into the skies (e.g. the giant Orion, the Hydra, and the sea-monster which Perseus killed in order to save Andromeda [the last of these becoming the constellation Cetus]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Malalas' *Khronographia** [Chronographia]*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later still than Hyginus, the Early Mediaeval Antiochene writer John Malalas (*circa* AD 491 – 578) compiled a history of the world featuring a mixture of euhemerised Greco-Roman myths, snippets of allegory, and philosophical maxims and musings, interacting with characters from the Bible, and entitled the *Khronographia*, &quot;Chronicle.&quot; His treatment of the Perseus myth seems to be unique to him, and his Perseus is somewhat of an evil wizard supervillain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Khronographia* 2.14 tells of how Medusa, rather than being a monster, was merely a wild-haired, wild-eyed country girl who Perseus, completely unprovoked, beheaded by the roadside in Libya. Using &quot;the deception of loathsome sorcery&quot; that he had learned from his father Picus (here a euhemerised form of Zeus), he &quot;performed mysteries over&quot; the girl's severed head and thus transformed it into the petrifying weapon for which it would gain fame and by which he was able to subdue his enemies. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In 2.15, from Libya, Perseus goes on to Ethiopia, whose virgin princess Andromeda has been dedicated by her father King Kepheus [Cepheus] to serve in the local temple of Poseidon, where she now lives. On account of her great beauty, Perseus ravishes her away from there, making her his wife.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After several conquests all over the Near and Middle East, Perseus comes to rule over Assyria and Persia. In his book *Perseus* (pp. 32-33), Daniel Ogden&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; discusses the end of the character's life as narrated by Malalas in *Khronographia* 2.21:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Two accounts of Perseus' death survive, but neither was canonical. As&#xD;&#xA;&gt; we have seen, Hyginus preserves the bare information, probably derived&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from an anomalous tragedy, that he was killed by his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cousin-once-removed Megapenthes in revenge for the killing of his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; father Proetus (*Fabulae* 244). Rather more interesting is the account&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Perseus' death given by the fixth-sixth-century AD Christian&#xD;&#xA;&gt; chronographer John Malalas:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; &lt;sup&gt;After sometime King Cepheus, the father of Andromeda, came&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; against him from Ethiopia, and made war upon him. Cepheus was unable&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; to see because of old age. Perseus, hearing that he was making war on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; him, became very angry and went out against him brandishing the head,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; and he showed it to him. Because he was unable to see, Cepheus rode&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; against him on his horse. Perseus did not realize that he could not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; see, and reasoned that the head of the Gorgon he held was no longer&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; working. So he turned it towards himself and looked at it. He was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; blinded and frozen like a corpse and killed.    &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; John Malalas pp. 38-9 Dindorf (cf. George Cedrenus 1.41)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is difficult to gauge the tone of this story. Is it tragic? Or are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; we rather to laugh and visualise the action along the lines of an&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Oliver Hardy peering down a hose-pipe to see why the water isn't&#xD;&#xA;&gt; coming out? Is it a Christian joke at the expense of one of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; principal pagan heroes? But such a tale may also have originated in a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; pagan joke. A favourite theme of the Perseus tradition from the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; second-century AD Pseudo-Lycophron onwards was that Perseus created&#xD;&#xA;&gt; statues with the Gorgon-head...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Smith, R.S., &amp; Trzaskoma, S.M. 2007. Apollodorus' *Library* and Hyginus' *Fabulae*: Two Handbooks of Greek Mythology,  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; Translated. Hackett Publishing Company, Inc., Indianapolis/Cambridge&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. Ogden, D. 2008. *Perseus*, Routledge: Taylor &amp; Francis Group, London and New York.&lt;/sub&gt;  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="20999" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6340" RevisionGUID="89af984a-ce8d-4834-838e-7af385264793" CreationDate="2020-04-30T09:57:22.290" UserId="2682" Text="Medusa and her two triplet Gorgon sisters, Sthenno and Euryale, are monsters from Greek and Roman mythology notorious for their ability to turn whoever looked upon them (or directly into their faces) into stone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any ancient (or even mediaeval) source that happens to go into the detail of whether one's accoutrements—clothing, footwear, armour, weaponry in hand, a bag slung over one's shoulder, and such the like—would get turned to stone *along with* the individual who is getting petrified by a Gorgon?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The closest to such a thing that I've come across is at two different points of the battle scene at the wedding of Perseus and Andromeda described in Ovid's *Metamorphoses* Book 5. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Line 235, Phineus,  Perseus' main opponent in the battle, is portrayed as having tears which harden into stone together with the rest of him once he sees the face of Medusa. However, since tears are a natural part of a person, it seems quite logical for every part of his body itself to undergo this change.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Earlier on in the fight (Lines 196-199), Eryx, an ally of Phineus, is also lithified, and depending on the translation, it seems as though both his armour and weapons are also transformed into stone at the same time as he is, but I am uncertain as to whether it is all that explicit on the matter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to A.D. Melville's 1986 translation, he became &quot;a man in armour turned to stone.&quot; In Brookes More's 1922 version &quot;he stood, complete with arms, a statue.&quot; According to A.S. Kline, via his Poetry in Translation website, Eryx became &quot;unmoving stone, a fully-armed statue.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Would it be an accurate assessment to deduce from this that Ovid means that Eryx and everything he was wearing and carrying was petrified? Moreover, does this indicate a principle that this is the default result? Might any other source say something additional on the issue, perhaps less ambiguous?  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21000" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6340" RevisionGUID="89af984a-ce8d-4834-838e-7af385264793" CreationDate="2020-04-30T09:57:22.290" UserId="2682" Text="Does Medusa's head turn one's clothing to stone together with its wearer?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21001" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6340" RevisionGUID="89af984a-ce8d-4834-838e-7af385264793" CreationDate="2020-04-30T09:57:22.290" UserId="2682" Text="|greek|roman|monsters|medusa|perseus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21002" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6341" RevisionGUID="74f6ccfd-dff6-46a1-9843-3d36f75707b0" CreationDate="2020-04-30T10:42:41.357" UserId="2682" Text="In Greek mythology, Hades' magic cap or helmet renders its wearer invisible. The most famous user of this piece of equipment is Hades' nephew, the hero Perseus, while on his mission to slay the Gorgon Medusa.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the mission, Perseus was outfitted with some other magical apparel, including a sword (or sickle, or sickle-shaped sword), a pair of winged sandals, and a bag in which to carry Medusa's severed head. Together with these he is sometimes said to have had also a polished shield to use as a mirror in order for him to be able to look at Medusa's reflection, which was harmless, and thus see her without the danger of direct eye contact.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I imagine that an invisibility cap is quite useless if it doesn't also hide the clothes and shoes that one is wearing in addition to the rest of him. So presumably Perseus' clothes (and bag and winged sandals?) went invisible when he wore Hades' cap. But what about his sword/sickle, or something as big as I imagine his shield was?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And if the shield did become invisible because he was carrying it, how could he use it? Could he himself see it (and the reflection in it) even though it was invisible? And is this *because* he too was invsible? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I suppose it would be like a bubble of invisibility surrounding Perseus so that he could still see (all of?) himself and all his stuff but no one else could. The exception to this is perhaps Athena, who Apollodorus (in *Bibliotheca* 2.36-42) says guided Perseus' hand to strike the killing blow against Medusa while he was using the polished shield's reflection. The same account also seems to describe Perseus wearing the invisibility cap the entire time from before until after his encounter with the three Gorgons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are these the best clues as to whether everything borne upon one's person becomes invisible to others while wearing the &quot;cap of darkness,&quot; or is there a clearer mention of this anywhere else?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Related: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/6340/2682&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21003" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6341" RevisionGUID="74f6ccfd-dff6-46a1-9843-3d36f75707b0" CreationDate="2020-04-30T10:42:41.357" UserId="2682" Text="Does the cap of Hades keep one's accessories hidden?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21004" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6341" RevisionGUID="74f6ccfd-dff6-46a1-9843-3d36f75707b0" CreationDate="2020-04-30T10:42:41.357" UserId="2682" Text="|greek|roman|athena|medusa|perseus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21005" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6340" RevisionGUID="206710a5-1283-4085-b922-c5a43f0af045" CreationDate="2020-04-30T10:46:34.493" UserId="2682" Comment="added link" Text="Medusa and her two triplet Gorgon sisters, Sthenno and Euryale, are monsters from Greek and Roman mythology notorious for their ability to turn whoever looked upon them (or directly into their faces) into stone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any ancient (or even mediaeval) source that happens to go into the detail of whether one's accoutrements—clothing, footwear, armour, weaponry in hand, a bag slung over one's shoulder, and such the like—would get turned to stone *along with* the individual who is getting petrified by a Gorgon?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The closest to such a thing that I've come across is at two different points of the battle scene at the wedding of Perseus and Andromeda described in Ovid's *Metamorphoses* Book 5. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Line 235, Phineus,  Perseus' main opponent in the battle, is portrayed as having tears which harden into stone together with the rest of him once he sees the face of Medusa. However, since tears are a natural part of a person, it seems quite logical for every part of his body itself to undergo this change.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Earlier on in the fight (Lines 196-199), Eryx, an ally of Phineus, is also lithified, and depending on the translation, it seems as though both his armour and weapons are also transformed into stone at the same time as he is, but I am uncertain as to whether it is all that explicit on the matter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to A.D. Melville's 1986 translation, he became &quot;a man in armour turned to stone.&quot; In Brookes More's 1922 version &quot;he stood, complete with arms, a statue.&quot; According to A.S. Kline, via his Poetry in Translation website, Eryx became &quot;unmoving stone, a fully-armed statue.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Would it be an accurate assessment to deduce from this that Ovid means that Eryx and everything he was wearing and carrying was petrified? Moreover, does this indicate a principle that this is the default result? Might any other source say something additional on the issue, perhaps less ambiguous?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Related: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/6341/2682&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21009" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6343" RevisionGUID="2f4a1d65-2fae-4d67-a299-971c8d43cae9" CreationDate="2020-05-01T17:44:35.150" UserId="6626" Text="I know that Moses from the Bible is generally agreed to be [a mythical figure][1] and not a real person, especially since no historical sources from places like Egypt or the people of Sinai at the time confirm Moses' existence, but  is there any historical figure that Moses could have been based on or any previous myths that might have inspired the creation of Moses?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.jstor.org/stable/3210358" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21010" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6343" RevisionGUID="2f4a1d65-2fae-4d67-a299-971c8d43cae9" CreationDate="2020-05-01T17:44:35.150" UserId="6626" Text="Any person/myth Moses Might Have Been Based On?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21011" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6343" RevisionGUID="2f4a1d65-2fae-4d67-a299-971c8d43cae9" CreationDate="2020-05-01T17:44:35.150" UserId="6626" Text="|christianity|history|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21012" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6344" RevisionGUID="759746ef-9711-45d9-8a5e-fac08b9e8955" CreationDate="2020-05-01T23:04:53.603" UserId="6897" Text="&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All &quot;mythical origins and legends surrounding &quot; the VMs that I know of have the same degree of plausibility, that is, absolute zero. All of them are of modern make.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. I believe the first recorded legend is the presentation of the ms. by then-owner Georg Baresch to Athanasius Kircher, in [a letter dated 1639][1], as a compendium of &quot;treasures of Egyptian medicine&quot; collected by some gentleman in his oriental &quot;quest for true medicin&quot; (quoted from Ph. Neal's translation, [here][2]; all my science about this &amp; the following letter is from his Voynich site, [here][3]). The priority relies on 2 very plausible conditions: **If** the letter is authentic &amp; **if** the document it describes is really the same book we dub the VMs. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Given that Baresch was striving to entice the famous author of the *Prodromus Coptus* into studying a copy of his ms., I cannot judge the extent of his sincerity in alleging an Egyptian origin. As an alchemist he must have known the stylistic conventions of the VMs do not match those of Hermetic diagrams in mediaeval mss, which would be all he'd ever met by way of hieroglyphs; on the other hand he may have interpreted some of the diagrams, as I did, as illustrating Moses' cosmogony *(Gen. 1-2)*, and he must have recognized the [Zodiacal signs &amp; the (European) calendar months][4] for what they are.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 2. Then, we have [a letter from Marcus Marcii][5] to the same Father Kircher (1665) translated [here][6], asserting Emperor Rudolf owned the book before Baresch, having paid 600 ducats &quot;to the man who presented it&quot;. Marcii then adds the opinion of a Dr. Raphael, &quot;tutor of the King Ferdinand&quot;, who &quot;thought the author was Roger Bacon the Englishman&quot;: the latter legend was widely circulated by W. Voynich in his promotional efforts for his ms. I think that contrary to us, the 17th C. did not question the attribution of *De Mirabili Potestate Artis et Naturae* &amp; other alchemical treatises to Bacon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whoever received the 600 ducats is anyone's guess. The notion that it was John Dee has no other ground, I think, than a mention in his diaries that he obtained roughly this sum once, while in Prag. I am pretty sure he did not explicitize the reason for the payment. (Check this). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 3. Then, we have the claim by W. R. Newbold ([publ. 1928][7]) that, according to his partial decipherment, Roger Bacon had invented the telescope and drawn [a schema of the Andromeda galaxy][8] in the VMs; I think Jacques Bergier was the first to surmise in print that the anachronistic technology could be of extraterrestrial origin *(Les livres maudits, 1971)*.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some yrs ago I submitted to the VMs mailing list a much less, ah, aethereal conjecture: the diagram represents the Earth before the Biblical Creation. The supposed galactic bulge is actually the shapeless &amp; void Earth; the arms, eight gusts of the *Ruach Elohim* blasting the Heaven and the waters above,  off the *tohu bohu* &amp; unto the eight compass points. Of course, I interpret the other diagrams of the folio as the 6 days of Creation, and [the preceding folio][9] as a map of Eden. In Newbold's defense, he likely had only photostat reprints of the VMs to work with, and may have missed the thin &quot;T-in-O&quot; signature of the pristine Earth: I recall it was not visible in my copy of *Les livres maudits*; I noticed it while browsing [Mr. Davies' indispensable site][10], which all the links I provided to VMs pages h-ref. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  4. There is also a sidestream theory in Voynichology that will not slake in spite of its utter impracticality, which raises it to legendary status: that the whole thing was a fabrication by W. Voynich himself.  The only factual basis of this legend is that Voynich was less than ingenuous in his account of the discovery of the ms.; it meets the same objections as the notion that the VMs script consists of glossolalia, compounded and amplified with the results of the radiocarbon dating, with his life-long inability to direct researchers to whatever prior art inspired him and, top and foremost, with his life-long inability to reach the desired end of the whole rigmarole: to sell the ms. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://philipneal.net/voynichsources/barschius_1637_latin/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://philipneal.net/voynichsources/barschius_1637_english/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://philipneal.net/voynichsources/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.jasondavies.com/voynich/#f70v2_f70v1&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://philipneal.net/voynichsources/marci_kircher_latin/#beinecke&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://philipneal.net/voynichsources/marci_1665_english/&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.amazon.fr/Cipher-Roger-William-Romaine-Newbold/dp/116931886X&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.jasondavies.com/voynich/#f68v3_f68v2_f68v1/0.322/0.482/3.00&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://www.jasondavies.com/voynich/#f67v2_f67v1/0.273/0.365/3.00&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://www.jasondavies.com/voynich/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21013" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6345" RevisionGUID="586fa35a-fdde-4551-9786-420dad2d8f28" CreationDate="2020-05-02T14:35:21.020" UserId="5511" Text="The Mosaic myth is composed out of a multitude of older stories:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - the story of the infant Moses's salvation from the Nile is based on an earlier legend of [king Sargon of Akkad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sargon_of_Akkad)&#xD;&#xA; -  the story of the parting of the Red Sea is based on Mesopotamian creation mythology&#xD;&#xA; - the Covenant Code (the law code in Exodus 20:22–23:33) has similarities in both content and structure with [the Laws of Hammurabi][1]&#xD;&#xA; -  the story of Moses's flight to Midian following the murder of the Egyptian overseer is similar to the [Egyptian Story of Sinuhe][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_Hammurabi&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Story_of_Sinuhe" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21015" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5629" RevisionGUID="6f79e628-5861-4463-af6d-084104f8b7b8" CreationDate="2020-05-03T09:10:29.927" UserId="2682" Comment="modified &amp; added info" Text="Yes, she did know.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Perseus Targeted**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no ancient source (that I know of) in which Hera seeks to harass Danae or Perseus. There is, however, a mediaeval Latin text called the First Vatican Mythographer which records a rather different version of the story of this mother and son, in which Hera does in fact go after Perseus out of jealousy that Zeus is looking out for this illegitimate offspring of his. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the commonest rendition, when Perseus is born, his grandfather Acrisius puts him and his mother in a wooden chest which he casts into the sea in the hope of killing the little boy (who at this point is either a newborn or up to four years old). The chest finds its way (via divine intervention from Zeus, according to Hyginus) to the Cycladic island of Seriphos, where the local fisherman Dictys takes care of Danae and helps to raise Perseus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the Vatican Mythographer, while Danae was still pregnant, Acrisius placed Danae on a ship rather than in a box, &quot;to go where chance would take her. Through the mercy of the gods she was carried to a safe place, namely, Italy.&quot;&lt;sup&gt;✭&lt;/sup&gt; There she was found by a fisherman named, confusingly, Perseus. Shortly afterwards, she gave birth to &quot;and named her son Perseus&quot;, presumably naming her child after the fisherman.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At this point, Jupiter [the Roman Zeus] gets involved in a way he never does in the better known forms of the myth:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jupiter entrusted Perseus to a certain king to be raised. Pained by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this, Juno [*Jupiter's wife, the Roman Hera*] was filled with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; unspeakable hatred. She decided to persecute Perseus and urged the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; king to destroy him somehow. The king sent Perseus to slay various&#xD;&#xA;&gt; monsters...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From other references to Perseus in the Vatican Mythographers we know that the hero survived his ordeals against these monsters. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The placement of Danae and Perseus in Italy is not completely out of left field, though. Juno's persecution of Perseus might not be derived from a genuinely ancient myth tradition (it seems to be modelled on Hera's persecution, rather, of Perseus' descendant Heracles, who is yet another one of Zeus's mortal indiscretions); nonetheless in Virgil's *Aeneid*, the box into which Acrisius casts Danae floats to Italy, where she marries a local king named Pilumnus and becomes an ancestor of Aeneas' rival Turnus. In Servius' Commentary on the *Aeneid*, she even ends up living on the spot upon which Rome is later founded.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hera's Awareness in Older Mythography**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for actual ancient sources, there are at least two of them which make it explicit that Hera knew Perseus's paternity. The first is Nonnus' *Dionysiaca*, which places the reign of Perseus in Argolis during the time that Perseus' half-brother the wine-god Dionysus is concluding his epic tour of Greece. At the end of Dionysus' itinerary is the region of Argolis, one of whose major cities is Argos, partly ruled over by Perseus' relative Melampus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Argos is famously known as a city dedicated to Hera. Centuries before Perseus and Dionysus were born Poseidon and Hera had contended strongly for the honour of becoming the city's patron deity, and Perseus' ancestors had awarded Hera the position. In *Dionysiaca* 47, by the time that Dionysus comes with his campaign entourage to Argos, the notoriety of Hera's hatred of him is so widespread that the Argives are fearful of a reprisal from their goddess if they receive this enemy stepson of hers. The citizens therefore turn Dionysus' army away from their home, which then provokes a retaliation by Dionysus, who induces madness in the city's women so that they start to butcher their own children.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This in turn attracts Hera's attention, who swoops to the aid of her city by disguising herself as Melampus and, in this form, goading Perseus into defending Argos against Dionysus' attack. In the fight that ensues, Dionysus' new bride Ariadne gets turned to stone by Perseus, who achieves this by using the deadly head of the slain Gorgon Medusa. An enraged Dionysus is then ready to destroy the city as well as other parts of Argolis, threatening to annihilate the land's inhabitants, at which point another half-brother, the messenger-god Hermes, appears behind him and convinces him to cease fighting, explaining that Hera, who is involved in the battle, possesses the power to defeat him.      &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; With Hermes' help, Dionysus and Perseus afterwards become friends&#xD;&#xA;&gt; while the real Melampus establishes the cult of Dionysus in Argolis.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The wine-god then moves on from there to Thrace to conclude his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; adventures in the final book of the *Dionysiaca*.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;~ *from [my Answer to another Question*](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/4730/2682)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the speech used by the disguised Hera to stir Perseus up in defense against Dionysus, she references the conception of Perseus by his mother, urging Perseus to: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; remember the bronze vault which was Danae's chamber, where Rainy Zeus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; poured into her bosom a shower of bride-stealing gold—let not Danae,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after that bed, after the wedding of gold, bend a slavish knee to that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; nobody Dionysus. Show that you have in you the true blood of Cronion&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [*Zeus*], show that you have in you the golden breed, proclaim the bed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that received that snowstorm of heavenly riches... Why do you tremble&#xD;&#xA;&gt; before Dionysus, no offspring of the bed of Zeus?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The play *Hercules Furens*, by the Roman writer Seneca, opens with Juno listing a number of Jupiter's indiscretions with other women and how different aspects of these illicit unions are celebrated across the sky itself in the form of constellations. In the case of the Gorgon-slaying hero, after his death, Zeus made him into the constellation Perseus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Juno refers to the women in her catalogue here as harlots, bearing a clearly much less flattering perspective than the one presented by Nonnus. Granted also that *Hercules Furens* proves only that the goddess in question is aware of Perseus' paternity long after he has died, a few generations in fact.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;✭ This and all other quotes of the Vatican Mythographer in this Answer taken from Ronald E. Pepin's translation of *The Vatican Mythographers* (numbered as First Vatican Mythographer 154 [pp. 71-72], published 2008, Fordham University Press, New York).&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21016" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5629" RevisionGUID="c82a72bf-96cc-41b1-b675-128433d044e6" CreationDate="2020-05-03T09:51:28.460" UserId="2682" Comment="tweaked a detail" Text="Yes, she did know.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Perseus Targeted**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no ancient source (that I know of) in which Hera seeks to harass Perseus or his mother Danae. There is, however, a mediaeval Latin text called the First Vatican Mythographer which records a rather different version of the story of this hero and his mother, in which Hera does in fact go after Perseus out of jealousy that Zeus is looking out for this illegitimate offspring of his. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the commonest rendition, when Perseus is born, his grandfather Acrisius puts him and his mother in a wooden chest which he casts into the sea in the hope of killing the little boy (who at this point is either a newborn or up to four years old). The chest finds its way (via divine intervention from Zeus, according to Hyginus) to the Cycladic island of Seriphos, where the local fisherman Dictys takes care of Danae and helps to raise Perseus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the Vatican Mythographer, while Danae was still pregnant, Acrisius placed Danae on a ship rather than in a box, &quot;to go where chance would take her. Through the mercy of the gods she was carried to a safe place, namely, Italy.&quot;&lt;sup&gt;✭&lt;/sup&gt; There she was found by a fisherman named, confusingly, Perseus. Shortly afterwards, she gave birth to &quot;and named her son Perseus&quot;, presumably naming her child after the fisherman.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At this point, Jupiter [the Roman Zeus] gets involved in a way he never does in the better known forms of the myth:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jupiter entrusted Perseus to a certain king to be raised. Pained by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this, Juno [*Jupiter's wife, the Roman Hera*] was filled with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; unspeakable hatred. She decided to persecute Perseus and urged the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; king to destroy him somehow. The king sent Perseus to slay various&#xD;&#xA;&gt; monsters...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From other references to Perseus in the Vatican Mythographers we know that the hero survived his ordeals against these monsters. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The placement of Danae and Perseus in Italy is not completely out of left field, though. Juno's persecution of Perseus might not be derived from a genuinely ancient myth tradition (it seems to be modelled on Hera's persecution, rather, of Perseus' descendant Heracles, who is yet another one of Zeus's mortal indiscretions); nonetheless in Virgil's *Aeneid*, the box into which Acrisius casts Danae floats to Italy, where she marries a local king named Pilumnus and becomes an ancestor of Aeneas' rival Turnus. In Servius' Commentary on the *Aeneid*, she even ends up living on the spot upon which Rome is later founded.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hera's Awareness in Older Mythography**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for actual ancient sources, there are at least two of them which make it explicit that Hera knew Perseus's paternity. The first is Nonnus' *Dionysiaca*, which places the reign of Perseus in Argolis during the time that Perseus' half-brother the wine-god Dionysus is concluding his epic tour of Greece. At the end of Dionysus' itinerary is the region of Argolis, one of whose major cities is Argos, partly ruled over by Perseus' relative Melampus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Argos is famously known as a city dedicated to Hera. Centuries before Perseus and Dionysus were born Poseidon and Hera had contended strongly for the honour of becoming the city's patron deity, and Perseus' ancestors had awarded Hera the position. In *Dionysiaca* 47, by the time that Dionysus comes with his campaign entourage to Argos, the notoriety of Hera's hatred of him is so widespread that the Argives are fearful of a reprisal from their goddess if they receive this enemy stepson of hers. The citizens therefore turn Dionysus' army away from their home, which then provokes a retaliation by Dionysus, who induces madness in the city's women so that they start to butcher their own children.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This in turn attracts Hera's attention, who swoops to the aid of her city by disguising herself as Melampus and, in this form, goading Perseus into defending Argos against Dionysus' attack. In the fight that ensues, Dionysus' new bride Ariadne gets turned to stone by Perseus, who achieves this by using the deadly head of the slain Gorgon Medusa. An enraged Dionysus is then ready to destroy the city as well as other parts of Argolis, threatening to annihilate the land's inhabitants, at which point another half-brother, the messenger-god Hermes, appears behind him and convinces him to cease fighting, explaining that Hera, who is involved in the battle, possesses the power to defeat him.      &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; With Hermes' help, Dionysus and Perseus afterwards become friends&#xD;&#xA;&gt; while the real Melampus establishes the cult of Dionysus in Argolis.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The wine-god then moves on from there to Thrace to conclude his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; adventures in the final book of the *Dionysiaca*.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;~ *from [my Answer to another Question*](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/4730/2682)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the speech used by the disguised Hera to stir Perseus up in defense against Dionysus, she references the conception of Perseus by his mother, urging Perseus to: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; remember the bronze vault which was Danae's chamber, where Rainy Zeus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; poured into her bosom a shower of bride-stealing gold—let not Danae,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after that bed, after the wedding of gold, bend a slavish knee to that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; nobody Dionysus. Show that you have in you the true blood of Cronion&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [*Zeus*], show that you have in you the golden breed, proclaim the bed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that received that snowstorm of heavenly riches... Why do you tremble&#xD;&#xA;&gt; before Dionysus, no offspring of the bed of Zeus?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The play *Hercules Furens*, by the Roman writer Seneca, opens with Juno listing a number of Jupiter's indiscretions with other women and how different aspects of these illicit unions are celebrated across the sky itself in the form of constellations. In the case of the Gorgon-slaying hero, after his death, Zeus made him into the constellation Perseus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Juno refers to the women in her catalogue here as harlots, bearing a clearly much less flattering perspective than the one presented by Nonnus. Granted also that *Hercules Furens* proves only that the goddess in question is aware of Perseus' paternity long after he has died, a few generations in fact.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;✭ This and all other quotes of the Vatican Mythographer in this Answer taken from Ronald E. Pepin's translation of *The Vatican Mythographers* (numbered as First Vatican Mythographer 154 [pp. 71-72], published 2008, Fordham University Press, New York).&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21018" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2595" RevisionGUID="1e27625d-1a67-4c56-bf2c-370368031db8" CreationDate="2020-05-04T17:13:01.597" UserId="3315" Comment="typo corrected, image resized" Text="I found a tattoo in a book about mandala tattoos and don't know what the meaning is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can anyone identify what this tattoo means?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![rune][1]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;(click to enlarge)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/fkn2zm.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/fkn2z.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21019" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2595" RevisionGUID="1e27625d-1a67-4c56-bf2c-370368031db8" CreationDate="2020-05-04T17:13:01.597" Comment="Proposed by 3315 approved by 5726, 53 edit id of 1808" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21020" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6348" RevisionGUID="c8dabf07-456c-4494-8d89-8a3685564fee" CreationDate="2020-05-05T23:49:57.917" UserDisplayName="user6914" Text="There was a [question on English SE][1] about *the name of horse-headed human* (opposite of Centaur), I wrote [**Ipotane**][2] in an answer. &#xD;&#xA;When I searched up 'Ipotane' on Google, it gave me the following image:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's also a [Wikipedia article about Ipotane][4]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I wonder if it's correct and used in mythology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does anyone have any information about 'Ipotane'?&#xD;&#xA;Or should it be *reverse-centaur*?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(I hope it's not off-topic.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/434255/whats-the-word-for-horse-headed-human-opposite-of-a-centaur/533066#533066&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.google.com/search?q=ipotane&amp;source=lmns&amp;bih=635&amp;biw=1360&amp;hl=en&amp;ved=2ahUKEwjl2fLYi5vpAhVK_4UKHUj4CMIQ_AUoAHoECAEQAA&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/qOTgO.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipotane" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21021" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6348" RevisionGUID="c8dabf07-456c-4494-8d89-8a3685564fee" CreationDate="2020-05-05T23:49:57.917" UserDisplayName="user6914" Text="Horse-headed human -&gt; Ipotane?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21022" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6348" RevisionGUID="c8dabf07-456c-4494-8d89-8a3685564fee" CreationDate="2020-05-05T23:49:57.917" UserDisplayName="user6914" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|mythohistory|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21023" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6349" RevisionGUID="c597a940-dd5a-4fc6-86ed-4c11028a2eb9" CreationDate="2020-05-06T01:20:33.343" UserId="2682" Text="**The Consensus Around Coin**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Starting at least in the 1st century BC, a handful of almost off-handed comments by certain writers (especially comedic authors) seems to have led to the interpretation of this story being that Danae granted Zeus her favours in exchange for gold: basically she was seduced by the offer of money. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By the time the Christian era was in full swing the episode had become proverbial for bribery, particularly in the context of becoming a metaphor for high-class prostitution. Epigrammatic poets in the *Greek Anthology* allude to the myth a few times, and the clearest example contrasting the possibility of rape with the idea that it was a consensual trade, is perhaps Parmenion, who says (*AP* 5.33 = *GPh* 1), addressing Zeus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; You flew like gold rain to Danae, Olympian, so that the child   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; would be won over by the gift, and not tremble before Cronides [*&quot;Cronus'&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Son&quot;*].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This maybe is a little bit inconclusive, especially if we take into account the fact that Parmenion thinks of Danae as a mere child at this point in her life. The term he uses here for her, *paîs*, is sometimes translated &quot;girl&quot; instead, which might not be much of an improvement under the circumstances of the topic, but, according to Wiktionary, one of its meanings is also, more vaguely, &quot;young person.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Close to Parmenion's view, also in the *Anthology*, is Paul the Silentiary, who describes Zeus in his golden form as having &quot;bent the will of Danae&quot;, or, via a different translation, &quot;turned even Danae's will around&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most of the Renaissance period's visual artistic portrayals of Danae feature her as a courtesan receiving supernatural payment in descending celestial gold coins. (See examples on the [Danaë Wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dana%C3%AB), and also Cathy Santore's article [&quot;Danaë: The Renaissance Courtesan's Alter Ego&quot;](https://www.jstor.org/stable/1482582).&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A few of them, however, hearken back to the early 1300s AD, when there was a more prominently rival interpretation of this character, in which she represented modesty, to the extent, even, that Danae was paralleled with the Virgin Mary, as pointed out by Madlyn Millner Kahr in her article [&quot;Danaë: Virtuous, Voluptuous, Venal Woman&quot;](https://www.jstor.org/stable/3049743).&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nevertheless, in this article Kahr reports that Karel van Mander reflected the more popular interpretation of his time (in 1604) so that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [I]n his explanation of Ovid's *Metamorphoses*, [Mander] interpreted&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the myth of Danaë as showing that through riches and gifts avarice can&#xD;&#xA;&gt; accomplish everything. &quot;Undoubtedly Jupiter [*the Roman Zeus*] tempted and deceived his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; inamorata and her nurse with large gifts of gold.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we fast-rewind more than one millennium, back to the 300s AD, van Mander's view is also consistent with Lactantius who offers the following analysis in his *Epitome of the Divine Institutes* 1.11:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They said that Jupiter changed himself into a shower of gold, that he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; might deceive Danae. What is a shower of gold? Plainly golden coins,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by offering a great quantity of which, and pouring them into her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bosom, he corrupted the frailty of her virgin soul with his bribe.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thus they also speak of a shower or iron, when they wish to signify a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; multitude of javelins.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Violence on Stage?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Centuries before Lactantius, several tragedies and comedies entitled *Danae* were written, featuring the character in question. All of them are now either completely lost or survive only in fragmentary form. It seems more than likely to me that at least some of them would have dealt explicitly with Danae's motivations and whether her union with Zeus was consensual or not.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the absence of such clear evidence, scholars have had to resort to scouring the surviving fragments of these, and other closely related works, in order to find the answers to questions like this one. On the one hand, we could just take the word of the later ancient authors like Lactantius and the epigrammatists: that Danae was simply taken in by some shiny stuff. On the other hand, it is thought by some that the aforementioned fragments might reveal a somewhat different version.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the 300s BC, Eubulus wrote a comedy entitled *Danae*. Maria Kanellou says&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; that in Fragment 22 K-A of this play: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; it is most probably Danae who complains, after her rape, of Zeus’&#xD;&#xA;&gt; merciless brutality (*ὅς με κλάουσαν τότε* | *οὐκ ἠλέησεν*, ‘who did&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not show mercy to me when I was crying’).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Ioanna Karamanou&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; the &quot;fragment presents Danae as complaining of being a victim of cruelty&quot; and that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It has been widely supposed that the incident to which Danae is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; referring is her rape by Zeus. I think that such an interpretation is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; plausible, considering that it is Zeus whom she blames for her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; misfortune in fr. 47a. 783-4 R. of the *Dictyulci*... and who is also&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the addressee of her plea in Simonides’ poem.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This would be more conclusive except for the fact that we do *not* actually know for sure who is speaking here or what s\he might be referring to, nor even the precise context thereof.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Dictyulci* (&quot;Net-Haulers&quot;) to which Karamanou refers is yet another fragmentary comedy, this one a satyr-play by Aeschylus. We have a much better idea of what is going in it than in Eubulus' *Danae* (since its fragments are bigger). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the referenced passage, Danae and her little son Perseus have landed on the island of Seriphos and are being harassed by the god Seilenus and his gang of Satyrs. Terrified, Danae prays to Zeus for help, &quot;for you were guilty of the greater fault, but it is I who have paid the full penalty. I call upon you to set things right!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ancient Visual Arts Considerations**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From all the evidence turned over so far, I find no clear-cut mention or description of a sexual assault. Rather less regarding money or forcefulness, Daniel Ogden goes more into the question of Danae's actual feelings in his 2008 book *Perseus* (Routledge: Taylor &amp; Francis Group, London &amp; New York). On p. 18 he notes that Pherecydes of Athens&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is the earliest source to describe Zeus' access to Danae in any&#xD;&#xA;&gt; detail. He implies that Zeus... transformed himself into golden rain&#xD;&#xA;&gt; merely for the purpose of getting through the skylight, but then&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reverted to humanoid form in order to have sex with the girl&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Pherecydes *FGH* 3 *fr.* 26 = *fr.* 10 Fowler)... But the remainder&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the literary sources imply that Zeus retained the form of golden&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rain to flow directly into Danae's loins, as a sort of golden sperm...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And this indeed is the way artists liked to portray the scene, with a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shower of golden rain heading straight for Danae's lap (*LIMC* Danae&#xD;&#xA;&gt; nos. 1-39, the earliest of which dates from *ca.* 490 BC). But for all&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that he impregnated her in the form of pure seed, Danae was evidently&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not denied sexual pleasure in the congress. In many images, from the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mid-fifth century onwards, she actively welcomes the seed into her lap&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by holding her dress out of the way to receive it (*LIMC* Danae nos.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 7, 8, 9,&lt;sup&gt;✭&lt;/sup&gt; 19, 26, 33) or alternatively uses the folds of her dress to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; collect it (*LIMC* Danae nos. 5, 10, 12, 31). In some her head is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; actually thrown back in ecstasy (note especially the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mid-fourth-century BC chalcedony intaglio, *LIMC* Danae no. 11).&lt;sup&gt;✭✭&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Louvre Danae vase][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;✭ Ogden inserts a reference here to a drawing of this vase (above), appearing on p. 14 of his book.&lt;/sup&gt;    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Danae intaglio][2]][2]   &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;✭✭ The 4th-century BC intaglio mentioned by Ogden (© *The State Hermitage Museum, St. Petersburg*)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sophocles' *Danae***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ogden also, however, briefly considers (on p. 15 of his book) the sole significant scrap of Sophocles' tragedy *Danae* which has survived the ravages of time: Fragment 165.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Amongst the fragments of the *Danae* we may find Acrisius' voice in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the phrase, 'I don't know about the rape. But one thing I do know is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that I am done for if this child lives'...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Quoting the text in its original Greek, Karamanou comments&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (οὐκ οἶδα τὴν σὴν πεῖραν· ἓν δ᾽ ἐπίσταμαι·/ τοῦ παιδὸς ὄντος τοῦδ᾽ ἐγώ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; διόλλυμαι)... was evidently spoken by Acrisius rejecting Danae’s&#xD;&#xA;&gt; possible allegation that she was the victim of forcible usage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odgen is rather loosely paraphrasing when he uses the word &quot;rape&quot;, though, which is how he has translated πεῖραν (*peîran*), which simply means &quot;attempt&quot; or &quot;trial&quot;, such as in Hugh Lloyd-Jones' translation: &quot;I do not know what you mean by an 'attempt'&quot;.&lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the narrative context, it seems very reasonable, as Ogden and Karamanou both say, that it is most likely Acrisius here speaking about the young boy Perseus. As for the matter of the πεῖραν, however, it is certainly speculative to conclude that this &quot;attempt&quot; must mean &quot;rape.&quot; It perhaps is what Sophocles meant by it, but we have nothing apart from that conjecture to lean on in this case.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Imprisonment Itself**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As to whether Danae would have gone into her sequestration willingly or otherwise, the ancient sources leave us with even less material than we have for the subject of choices in her encounter with Zeus. In other words, they say pretty much nothing on the issue, and we are left to speculate based on whatever our own sentiments about this might be.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would guess that Danae was not at all enthusiastic about being locked up. Moreover, with the heavy emphasis—throughout the story's coverage since ancient times up until the Renaissance—upon the idea that Zeus paid Danae in gold currency in order to obtain his desire, one might wonder what a prisoner like Danae could need money for.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only answer I could come up with is that she wished to attempt an escape using these funds. And as it so happens, this is the same conclusion arrived at by the earliest source that I could find for an answer to this part of your inquiry, namely Giovanni Boccaccio's *Genealogy of the Gods of the Gentiles* (whose first version was completed in 1360 AD). In Book 2, Ch. 33 of this work, Boccaccio cites a certain Theodontius, saying that, according to *him*: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Danaë, being loved by Jove [*i.e. Jupiter/ Zeus*], and knowing that out of fear her father&#xD;&#xA;&gt; had condemned her to perpetual imprisonment, in order to escape and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; secretly take flight, made a bargain with Jove at the price of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; intercourse with him.&lt;sup&gt;7&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Wikipedia, Boccaccio's *Genealogy* quotes this Theodontius extensively but he &quot;is otherwise almost unknown... Some authorities think Boccaccio invented him.  Carlo Landi argued... that Boccaccio's Theodontius was a Campanian philosopher, from between the 9th and 11th centuries.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whatever the case, this explanation of the story could incidentally fit the most ancient account of it that we have, wherein Acrisius provides Danae with the company of a nurse, whom he puts to death after discovering that Danae has had a child. This is because Acrisius suspects or is convinced that the nurse was complicit in a scheme which allowed Danae to illicitly receive a lover inside her prison. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding Fragment 7 of Euripides' tragedy *Danae*, Karamanou says&lt;sup&gt;8&lt;/sup&gt; that it&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; illustrates the overwhelming power of gold over people and even over&#xD;&#xA;&gt; love. The widely held view is that Acrisius may have uttered these&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lines upon discovering the pieces of gold left from Zeus’&#xD;&#xA;&gt; transformation, assuming that his daughter was seduced by a rich&#xD;&#xA;&gt; man...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Karamanou's comments on the surrounding fragments from the same play suggest that here Danae is supposed to be innocent of any scheme involving money but her father levels such an accusation against her and she is compelled to argue in her own defense against such an idea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The notion that Zeus shed some of the gold into which he had transformed is uncannily reminiscent of modern science fiction and it would be intriguing if, as far back as Euripides, this is what is supposed to have taken place in the tragedian's version of the tale, whether Zeus did so deliberately or inadvertently. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Notes***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. In the *Zeitschrift für Kunstgeschichte* 54. Bd., H. 3 (1991), pp. 412-427.  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; Alternatively see Henry Zaidan's blog-post &quot;[23 Works of the Art Surrounding the Greek Myth of Danaë and the Shower of Gold](https://painting-mythology.blogspot.com/2015/07/23-works-of-art-surrounding-greek-myth.html).&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; For ancient vase paintings in particular, see Theoi.com's [Danae article](https://www.theoi.com/Heroine/Danae.html).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. In *The Art Bulletin* Vol. 60, No. 1 (Mar., 1978), pp. 43-55.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. The quote is taken from p. 264 of *Greek Epigram from the Hellenistic to the Early Byzantine Era*, Edited by Maria Kanellou, Ivana Petrovic, &amp; Chris Carey (2019), Oxford University Press, United Kingdom.  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; The relevant section is Ch. 15 of this book (pp. 249-271), written by Kanellou, and entitled &quot;Mythological Burlesque and Satire in Greek Epigram—A Case Study: Zeus’ Seduction of Danae.&quot;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;4. Quotations of her are from p. 19 of her January 2005 Doctoral Thesis &quot;A Commentary on Euripides' *Danae* and *Dictys*&quot; in University College London's Department of Greek and Latin, Published by ProQuest LLC, 2013, Ann Arbor, MI.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;5. On p. 12 of her book *Euripides* - Danae *and* Dictys: *Introduction, Text and Commentary* (2012), De Gruyter, Leipzig.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;6. From p. 67 of his Loeb Classical Library book *Sophocles: Fragments* (2003), Cambridge, Massachusetts &amp; London, England.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;7. Translation taken from a quotation by Madlyn Millner Kahr in her article &quot;Danaë: Virtuous, Voluptuous, Venal Woman&quot; in *The Art Bulletin* Vol. 60, No. 1 (Mar., 1978), pp. 43-55.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;8. On p. 78 of her Doctoral Thesis (see n. 4 for the particulars thereof).&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/mTTxw.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/u8rAr.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21024" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6350" RevisionGUID="5fbae3c1-e815-4350-bc79-c3666153953c" CreationDate="2020-05-06T11:14:12.083" UserId="5511" Text="I don't think it would be Hippotane:  *ιππότης* (hippotes) in Ancient Greek just means &quot;soldier&quot; or something close to our word &quot;knight&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you want to derive from Greek, then Wikipedia suggests *ιππότης λεώς* (hippotes leous), but that literally means &quot;horse people&quot;, so that's not exactly it either. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some versions of the Perseus myth mention a horse-headed man, based on the cave-cult of the horse-headed Demeter, but gives this creature no specific name:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would suggest *μεάλογον* (mealogon). *με άλογο* means horse-headed, adding an &quot;n&quot; to rhyme with &quot;gorgon&quot;, but this has no historical basis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/EMiZs.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21028" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6349" RevisionGUID="a31cd048-eb50-482a-b106-d4a3ed4b535b" CreationDate="2020-05-07T17:53:12.397" UserId="2682" Comment="added info" Text="**The Consensus Around Coin**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Starting at least in the 1st century BC, a handful of almost off-handed comments by certain writers (especially comedic authors) seems to have led to the interpretation of this story being that Danae granted Zeus her favours in exchange for gold: basically she was seduced by the offer of money. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By the time the Christian era was in full swing the episode had become proverbial for bribery, particularly in the context of becoming a metaphor for high-class prostitution. Epigrammatic poets in the *Greek Anthology* allude to the myth a few times, and the clearest example contrasting the possibility of rape with the idea that it was a consensual trade, is perhaps Parmenion, who says (*AP* 5.33 = *GPh* 1), addressing Zeus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; You flew like gold rain to Danae, Olympian, so that the child   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; would be won over by the gift, and not tremble before Cronides [*&quot;Cronus'&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Son&quot;*].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This maybe is a little bit inconclusive, especially if we take into account the fact that Parmenion thinks of Danae as a mere child at this point in her life. The term he uses here for her, *paîs*, is sometimes translated &quot;girl&quot; instead, which might not be much of an improvement under the circumstances of the topic, but, according to Wiktionary, one of its meanings is also, more vaguely, &quot;young person.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Close to Parmenion's view, also in the *Anthology*, is Paul the Silentiary, who describes Zeus in his golden form as having &quot;bent the will of Danae&quot;, or, via a different translation, &quot;turned even Danae's will around&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most of the Renaissance period's visual artistic portrayals of Danae feature her as a courtesan receiving supernatural payment in descending celestial gold coins. (See examples on the [Danaë Wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dana%C3%AB), and also Cathy Santore's article [&quot;Danaë: The Renaissance Courtesan's Alter Ego&quot;](https://www.jstor.org/stable/1482582).&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A few of them, however, hearken back to the early 1300s AD, when there was a more prominently rival interpretation of this character, in which she represented modesty, to the extent, even, that Danae was paralleled with the Virgin Mary, as pointed out by Madlyn Millner Kahr in her article [&quot;Danaë: Virtuous, Voluptuous, Venal Woman&quot;](https://www.jstor.org/stable/3049743).&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nevertheless, in this article Kahr reports that Karel van Mander reflected the more popular interpretation of his time (in 1604) so that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [I]n his explanation of Ovid's *Metamorphoses*, [Mander] interpreted&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the myth of Danaë as showing that through riches and gifts avarice can&#xD;&#xA;&gt; accomplish everything. &quot;Undoubtedly Jupiter [*the Roman Zeus*] tempted and deceived his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; inamorata and her nurse with large gifts of gold.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cathy Santore's &quot;Danaë&quot; article (see n. 1) quotes the 16th-century poet Giovanni Andrea dell' Anguillara, saying that when he &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; retells Ovid's *Metamorphoses* he takes the liberty of embellishing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the tale to suit his fancy. He puts Danaë first in a garden then a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; loggia and finally in her room where Jove appears in bodily form. Her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; first reaction is to flee, but the god sweet talks her and shows her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; so much gold that he finally got what he wanted...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we fast-rewind more than one millennium, back to the 300s AD, van Mander's view and dell' Anguillara's interpretation are consistent with Lactantius, who offers the following analysis in his *Epitome of the Divine Institutes* 1.11:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They said that Jupiter changed himself into a shower of gold, that he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; might deceive Danae. What is a shower of gold? Plainly golden coins,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by offering a great quantity of which, and pouring them into her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bosom, he corrupted the frailty of her virgin soul with his bribe.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thus they also speak of a shower or iron, when they wish to signify a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; multitude of javelins.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Violence on Stage?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Centuries before Lactantius, several tragedies and comedies entitled *Danae* were written, featuring the character in question. All of them are now either completely lost or survive only in fragmentary form. It seems more than likely to me that at least some of them would have dealt explicitly with Danae's motivations and whether her union with Zeus was consensual or not.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the absence of such clear evidence, scholars have had to resort to scouring the surviving fragments of these, and other closely related works, in order to find the answers to questions like this one. On the one hand, we could just take the word of the later ancient authors like Lactantius and the epigrammatists: that Danae was simply taken in by some shiny stuff. On the other hand, it is thought by some that the aforementioned fragments might reveal a somewhat different version.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the 300s BC, Eubulus wrote a comedy entitled *Danae*. Maria Kanellou says&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; that in Fragment 22 K-A of this play: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; it is most probably Danae who complains, after her rape, of Zeus’&#xD;&#xA;&gt; merciless brutality (*ὅς με κλάουσαν τότε* | *οὐκ ἠλέησεν*, ‘who did&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not show mercy to me when I was crying’).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Ioanna Karamanou&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; the &quot;fragment presents Danae as complaining of being a victim of cruelty&quot; and that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It has been widely supposed that the incident to which Danae is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; referring is her rape by Zeus. I think that such an interpretation is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; plausible, considering that it is Zeus whom she blames for her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; misfortune in fr. 47a. 783-4 R. of the *Dictyulci*... and who is also&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the addressee of her plea in Simonides’ poem.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This would be more conclusive except for the fact that we do *not* actually know for sure who is speaking here or what s\he might be referring to, nor even the precise context thereof.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Dictyulci* (&quot;Net-Haulers&quot;) to which Karamanou refers is yet another fragmentary comedy, this one a satyr-play by Aeschylus. We have a much better idea of what is going in it than in Eubulus' *Danae* (since its fragments are bigger). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the referenced passage, Danae and her little son Perseus have landed on the island of Seriphos and are being harassed by the god Seilenus and his gang of Satyrs. Terrified, Danae prays to Zeus for help, &quot;for you were guilty of the greater fault, but it is I who have paid the full penalty. I call upon you to set things right!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ancient Visual Arts Considerations**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From all the evidence turned over so far, I find no clear-cut mention or description of a sexual assault. Rather less regarding money or forcefulness, Daniel Ogden goes more into the question of Danae's actual feelings in his 2008 book *Perseus* (Routledge: Taylor &amp; Francis Group, London &amp; New York). On p. 18 he notes that Pherecydes of Athens&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is the earliest source to describe Zeus' access to Danae in any&#xD;&#xA;&gt; detail. He implies that Zeus... transformed himself into golden rain&#xD;&#xA;&gt; merely for the purpose of getting through the skylight, but then&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reverted to humanoid form in order to have sex with the girl&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Pherecydes *FGH* 3 *fr.* 26 = *fr.* 10 Fowler)... But the remainder&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the literary sources imply that Zeus retained the form of golden&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rain to flow directly into Danae's loins, as a sort of golden sperm...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And this indeed is the way artists liked to portray the scene, with a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shower of golden rain heading straight for Danae's lap (*LIMC* Danae&#xD;&#xA;&gt; nos. 1-39, the earliest of which dates from *ca.* 490 BC). But for all&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that he impregnated her in the form of pure seed, Danae was evidently&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not denied sexual pleasure in the congress. In many images, from the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mid-fifth century onwards, she actively welcomes the seed into her lap&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by holding her dress out of the way to receive it (*LIMC* Danae nos.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 7, 8, 9,&lt;sup&gt;✭&lt;/sup&gt; 19, 26, 33) or alternatively uses the folds of her dress to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; collect it (*LIMC* Danae nos. 5, 10, 12, 31). In some her head is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; actually thrown back in ecstasy (note especially the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mid-fourth-century BC chalcedony intaglio, *LIMC* Danae no. 11).&lt;sup&gt;✭✭&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Louvre Danae vase][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;✭ Ogden inserts a reference here to a drawing of this vase (above), appearing on p. 14 of his book.&lt;/sup&gt;    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Danae intaglio][2]][2]   &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;✭✭ The 4th-century BC intaglio mentioned by Ogden (© *The State Hermitage Museum, St. Petersburg*)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sophocles' *Danae***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ogden also, however, briefly considers (on p. 15 of his book) the sole significant scrap of Sophocles' tragedy *Danae* which has survived the ravages of time: Fragment 165.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Amongst the fragments of the *Danae* we may find Acrisius' voice in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the phrase, 'I don't know about the rape. But one thing I do know is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that I am done for if this child lives'...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Quoting the text in its original Greek, Karamanou comments&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (οὐκ οἶδα τὴν σὴν πεῖραν· ἓν δ᾽ ἐπίσταμαι·/ τοῦ παιδὸς ὄντος τοῦδ᾽ ἐγώ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; διόλλυμαι)... was evidently spoken by Acrisius rejecting Danae’s&#xD;&#xA;&gt; possible allegation that she was the victim of forcible usage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odgen is rather loosely paraphrasing when he uses the word &quot;rape&quot;, though, which is how he has translated πεῖραν (*peîran*), which simply means &quot;attempt&quot; or &quot;trial&quot;, such as in Hugh Lloyd-Jones' translation: &quot;I do not know what you mean by an 'attempt'&quot;.&lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the narrative context, it seems very reasonable, as Ogden and Karamanou both say, that it is most likely Acrisius here speaking about the young boy Perseus. As for the matter of the πεῖραν, however, it is certainly speculative to conclude that this &quot;attempt&quot; must mean &quot;rape.&quot; It perhaps is what Sophocles meant by it, but we have nothing apart from that conjecture to lean on in this case.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Imprisonment Itself**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As to whether Danae would have gone into her sequestration willingly or otherwise, the ancient sources leave us with even less material than we have for the subject of choices in her encounter with Zeus. In other words, they say pretty much nothing on the issue, and we are left to speculate based on whatever our own sentiments about this might be.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would guess that Danae was not at all enthusiastic about being locked up. Moreover, with the heavy emphasis—throughout the story's coverage since ancient times up until the Renaissance—upon the idea that Zeus paid Danae in gold currency in order to obtain his desire, one might wonder what a prisoner like Danae could need money for.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only answer I could come up with is that she wished to attempt an escape using these funds. And as it so happens, this is the same conclusion arrived at by the earliest source that I could find for an answer to this part of your inquiry, namely Giovanni Boccaccio's *Genealogy of the Gods of the Gentiles* (whose first version was completed in 1360 AD). In Book 2, Ch. 33 of this work, Boccaccio cites a certain Theodontius, saying that, according to *him*: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Danaë, being loved by Jove [*i.e. Jupiter/ Zeus*], and knowing that out of fear her father&#xD;&#xA;&gt; had condemned her to perpetual imprisonment, in order to escape and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; secretly take flight, made a bargain with Jove at the price of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; intercourse with him.&lt;sup&gt;7&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Wikipedia, Boccaccio's *Genealogy* quotes this Theodontius extensively but he &quot;is otherwise almost unknown... Some authorities think Boccaccio invented him.  Carlo Landi argued... that Boccaccio's Theodontius was a Campanian philosopher, from between the 9th and 11th centuries.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whatever the case, this explanation of the story could incidentally fit the most ancient account of it that we have, wherein Acrisius provides Danae with the company of a nurse, whom he puts to death after discovering that Danae has had a child. This is because Acrisius suspects or is convinced that the nurse was complicit in a scheme which allowed Danae to illicitly receive a lover inside her prison. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding Fragment 7 of Euripides' tragedy *Danae*, Karamanou says&lt;sup&gt;8&lt;/sup&gt; that it&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; illustrates the overwhelming power of gold over people and even over&#xD;&#xA;&gt; love. The widely held view is that Acrisius may have uttered these&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lines upon discovering the pieces of gold left from Zeus’&#xD;&#xA;&gt; transformation, assuming that his daughter was seduced by a rich&#xD;&#xA;&gt; man...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Karamanou's comments on the surrounding fragments from the same play suggest that here Danae is supposed to be innocent of any scheme involving money but her father levels such an accusation against her and she is compelled to argue in her own defense against such an idea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The notion that Zeus shed some of the gold into which he had transformed is uncannily reminiscent of modern science fiction and it would be intriguing if, as far back as Euripides, this is what is supposed to have taken place in the tragedian's version of the tale, whether Zeus did so deliberately or inadvertently. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Notes***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. In the *Zeitschrift für Kunstgeschichte* 54. Bd., H. 3 (1991), pp. 412-427.  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; Alternatively see Henry Zaidan's blog-post &quot;[23 Works of the Art Surrounding the Greek Myth of Danaë and the Shower of Gold](https://painting-mythology.blogspot.com/2015/07/23-works-of-art-surrounding-greek-myth.html).&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; For ancient vase paintings in particular, see Theoi.com's [Danae article](https://www.theoi.com/Heroine/Danae.html).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. In *The Art Bulletin* Vol. 60, No. 1 (Mar., 1978), pp. 43-55.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. The quote is taken from p. 264 of *Greek Epigram from the Hellenistic to the Early Byzantine Era*, Edited by Maria Kanellou, Ivana Petrovic, &amp; Chris Carey (2019), Oxford University Press, United Kingdom.  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; The relevant section is Ch. 15 of this book (pp. 249-271), written by Kanellou, and entitled &quot;Mythological Burlesque and Satire in Greek Epigram—A Case Study: Zeus’ Seduction of Danae.&quot;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;4. Quotations of her are from p. 19 of her January 2005 Doctoral Thesis &quot;A Commentary on Euripides' *Danae* and *Dictys*&quot; in University College London's Department of Greek and Latin, Published by ProQuest LLC, 2013, Ann Arbor, MI.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;5. On p. 12 of her book *Euripides* - Danae *and* Dictys: *Introduction, Text and Commentary* (2012), De Gruyter, Leipzig.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;6. From p. 67 of his Loeb Classical Library book *Sophocles: Fragments* (2003), Cambridge, Massachusetts &amp; London, England.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;7. Translation taken from a quotation by Madlyn Millner Kahr in her article &quot;Danaë: Virtuous, Voluptuous, Venal Woman&quot; in *The Art Bulletin* Vol. 60, No. 1 (Mar., 1978), pp. 43-55.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;8. On p. 78 of her Doctoral Thesis (see n. 4 for the particulars thereof).&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/mTTxw.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/u8rAr.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21030" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6349" RevisionGUID="a65ea607-2a6a-4b45-bfe1-aa830fac3cf6" CreationDate="2020-05-07T21:52:55.443" UserId="2682" Comment="updated some details" Text="**The Consensus Around Coin**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Starting at least in the 1st century BC, a handful of almost off-handed comments by certain writers (especially comedic authors) seems to have led to the interpretation of this story being that Danae granted Zeus her favours in exchange for gold: basically she was seduced by the offer of money. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By the time the Christian era was in full swing the episode had become proverbial for bribery, particularly in the context of becoming a metaphor for high-class prostitution. Epigrammatic poets in the *Greek Anthology* allude to the myth a few times, and the clearest example contrasting the possibility of rape with the idea that it was a consensual trade, is perhaps Parmenion, who says (*AP* 5.33 = *GPh* 1), addressing Zeus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; You flew like gold rain to Danae, Olympian, so that the child   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; would be won over by the gift, and not tremble before Cronides [*&quot;Cronus'&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Son&quot;*].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This maybe is a little bit inconclusive, especially if we take into account the fact that Parmenion thinks of Danae as a mere child at this point in her life. The term he uses here for her, *paîs*, is sometimes translated &quot;girl&quot; instead, which might not be much of an improvement under the circumstances of the topic, but, according to Wiktionary, one of its meanings is also, more vaguely, &quot;young person.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Close to Parmenion's view, also in the *Anthology*, is Paul the Silentiary, who describes Zeus in his golden form as having &quot;bent the will of Danae&quot;, or, via a different translation, &quot;turned even Danae's will around&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most of the Renaissance period's visual portrayals of Danae feature her as a courtesan receiving supernatural payment in descending celestial gold coins. (See examples on the [Danaë Wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dana%C3%AB), and also Cathy Santore's article [&quot;Danaë: The Renaissance Courtesan's Alter Ego&quot;](https://www.jstor.org/stable/1482582).&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A few of them, however, hearken back to the early 1300s AD, when there was a more prominently rival interpretation of this character, in which she represented modesty, to the extent, even, that Danae was paralleled with the Virgin Mary, as pointed out by Madlyn Millner Kahr in her article [&quot;Danaë: Virtuous, Voluptuous, Venal Woman&quot;](https://www.jstor.org/stable/3049743).&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nevertheless, in this article Kahr reports that Karel van Mander reflected the more popular interpretation of his time (in 1604) so that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [I]n his explanation of Ovid's *Metamorphoses*, [Mander] interpreted&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the myth of Danaë as showing that through riches and gifts avarice can&#xD;&#xA;&gt; accomplish everything. &quot;Undoubtedly Jupiter [*the Roman Zeus*] tempted and deceived his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; inamorata and her nurse with large gifts of gold.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cathy Santore's &quot;Danaë&quot; article references the 16th-century poet Giovanni Andrea dell' Anguillara, saying&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; that when he &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; retells Ovid's *Metamorphoses* he takes the liberty of embellishing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the tale to suit his fancy. He puts Danaë first in a garden then a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; loggia and finally in her room where Jove appears in bodily form. Her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; first reaction is to flee, but the god sweet talks her and shows her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; so much gold that he finally got what he wanted...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we fast-rewind more than one millennium, back to the 300s AD, van Mander's view and dell' Anguillara's interpretation are consistent with Lactantius, who offers the following analysis in his *Epitome of the Divine Institutes* 1.11:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They said that Jupiter changed himself into a shower of gold, that he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; might deceive Danae. What is a shower of gold? Plainly golden coins,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by offering a great quantity of which, and pouring them into her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bosom, he corrupted the frailty of her virgin soul with his bribe.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thus they also speak of a shower or iron, when they wish to signify a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; multitude of javelins.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Violence on Stage?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Centuries before Lactantius, several tragedies and comedies entitled *Danae* were written, featuring the character in question. All of them are now either completely lost or survive only in fragmentary form. It seems more than likely to me that at least some of them would have dealt explicitly with Danae's motivations and whether her union with Zeus was consensual or not.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the absence of such clear evidence, scholars have had to resort to scouring the surviving fragments of these, and other closely related works, in order to find the answers to questions like this one. On the one hand, we could just take the word of the later ancient authors like Lactantius and the epigrammatists: that Danae was simply taken in by some shiny stuff. On the other hand, it is thought by some that the aforementioned fragments might reveal a somewhat different version.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the 300s BC, Eubulus wrote a comedy entitled *Danae*. Maria Kanellou says&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; that in Fragment 22 K-A of this play: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; it is most probably Danae who complains, after her rape, of Zeus’&#xD;&#xA;&gt; merciless brutality (*ὅς με κλάουσαν τότε* | *οὐκ ἠλέησεν*, ‘who did&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not show mercy to me when I was crying’).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Ioanna Karamanou the &quot;fragment presents Danae as complaining of being a victim of cruelty&quot; and that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It has been widely supposed that the incident to which Danae is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; referring is her rape by Zeus. I think that such an interpretation is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; plausible, considering that it is Zeus whom she blames for her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; misfortune in fr. 47a. 783-4 R. of the *Dictyulci*... and who is also&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the addressee of her plea in Simonides’ poem.&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This would be more conclusive except for the fact that we do *not* actually know for sure who is speaking here or what s\he might be referring to, nor even the precise context thereof.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Dictyulci* (&quot;Net-Haulers&quot;) to which Karamanou refers is yet another fragmentary comedy, this one a satyr-play by Aeschylus. We have a much better idea of what is going in it than in Eubulus' *Danae* (since its fragments are bigger). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the referenced passage, Danae and her little son Perseus have landed on the island of Seriphos and are being harassed by the god Seilenus and his gang of Satyrs. Terrified, Danae prays to Zeus for help, &quot;for you were guilty of the greater fault, but it is I who have paid the full penalty. I call upon you to set things right!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ancient Visual Arts Considerations**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From all the evidence turned over so far, I find no clear-cut mention or description of a sexual assault. Rather less regarding money or forcefulness, Daniel Ogden goes more into the question of Danae's actual feelings in his 2008 book *Perseus* (Routledge: Taylor &amp; Francis Group, London &amp; New York). On p. 18 he notes that Pherecydes of Athens&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is the earliest source to describe Zeus' access to Danae in any&#xD;&#xA;&gt; detail. He implies that Zeus... transformed himself into golden rain&#xD;&#xA;&gt; merely for the purpose of getting through the skylight, but then&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reverted to humanoid form in order to have sex with the girl&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Pherecydes *FGH* 3 *fr.* 26 = *fr.* 10 Fowler)... But the remainder&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the literary sources imply that Zeus retained the form of golden&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rain to flow directly into Danae's loins, as a sort of golden sperm...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And this indeed is the way artists liked to portray the scene, with a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shower of golden rain heading straight for Danae's lap (*LIMC* Danae&#xD;&#xA;&gt; nos. 1-39, the earliest of which dates from *ca.* 490 BC). But for all&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that he impregnated her in the form of pure seed, Danae was evidently&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not denied sexual pleasure in the congress. In many images, from the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mid-fifth century onwards, she actively welcomes the seed into her lap&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by holding her dress out of the way to receive it (*LIMC* Danae nos.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 7, 8, 9,&lt;sup&gt;✭&lt;/sup&gt; 19, 26, 33) or alternatively uses the folds of her dress to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; collect it (*LIMC* Danae nos. 5, 10, 12, 31). In some her head is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; actually thrown back in ecstasy (note especially the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mid-fourth-century BC chalcedony intaglio, *LIMC* Danae no. 11).&lt;sup&gt;✭✭&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Louvre Danae vase][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;✭ Ogden inserts a reference here to a drawing of this vase (above), appearing on p. 14 of his book.&lt;/sup&gt;    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Danae intaglio][2]][2]   &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;✭✭ The 4th-century BC intaglio mentioned by Ogden (© *The State Hermitage Museum, St. Petersburg*)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sophocles' *Danae***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ogden also, however, briefly considers (on p. 15 of his book) the sole significant scrap of Sophocles' tragedy *Danae* which has survived the ravages of time: Fragment 165.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Amongst the fragments of the *Danae* we may find Acrisius' voice in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the phrase, 'I don't know about the rape. But one thing I do know is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that I am done for if this child lives'...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Quoting the text in its original Greek, Karamanou comments&lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt; that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (οὐκ οἶδα τὴν σὴν πεῖραν· ἓν δ᾽ ἐπίσταμαι·/ τοῦ παιδὸς ὄντος τοῦδ᾽ ἐγώ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; διόλλυμαι)... was evidently spoken by Acrisius rejecting Danae’s&#xD;&#xA;&gt; possible allegation that she was the victim of forcible usage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odgen is rather loosely paraphrasing when he uses the word &quot;rape&quot;, though, which is how he has translated πεῖραν (*peîran*), which simply means &quot;attempt&quot; or &quot;trial&quot;, such as in Hugh Lloyd-Jones' translation: &quot;I do not know what you mean by an 'attempt'&quot;.&lt;sup&gt;7&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the narrative context, it seems very reasonable, as Ogden and Karamanou both say, that it is most likely Acrisius here speaking about the young boy Perseus. As for the matter of the πεῖραν, however, it is certainly speculative to conclude that this &quot;attempt&quot; must mean &quot;rape.&quot; It perhaps is what Sophocles meant by it, but we have nothing apart from that conjecture to lean on in this case.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Imprisonment Itself**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As to whether Danae would have gone into her sequestration willingly or otherwise, the ancient sources leave us with even less material than we have for the subject of choices in her encounter with Zeus. In other words, they say pretty much nothing on the issue, and we are left to speculate based on whatever our own sentiments about this might be.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would guess that Danae was not at all enthusiastic about being locked up. Moreover, with the heavy emphasis—throughout the story's coverage since ancient times up until the Renaissance—upon the idea that Zeus paid Danae in gold currency in order to obtain his desire, one might wonder what a prisoner like Danae could need money for.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only answer I could come up with is that she wished to attempt an escape using these funds. And as it so happens, this is the same conclusion arrived at by the earliest source I have come across for an answer to this part of your inquiry, namely Giovanni Boccaccio's *Genealogy of the Gods of the Gentiles* (whose first version was completed in 1360 AD). In Book 2, Ch. 33 of this work, Boccaccio cites a certain Theodontius, saying that, according to *him*: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Danaë, being loved by Jove [*i.e. Jupiter/ Zeus*], and knowing that out of fear her father&#xD;&#xA;&gt; had condemned her to perpetual imprisonment, in order to escape and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; secretly take flight, made a bargain with Jove at the price of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; intercourse with him.&lt;sup&gt;8&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Wikipedia, Boccaccio's *Genealogy* quotes this Theodontius extensively but he &quot;is otherwise almost unknown... Some authorities think Boccaccio invented him.  Carlo Landi argued... that Boccaccio's Theodontius was a Campanian philosopher, from between the 9th and 11th centuries.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whatever the case, this explanation of the story could incidentally fit the most ancient account of it that we have, wherein Acrisius provides Danae with the company of a nurse, whom he puts to death after discovering that Danae has had a child. This is because Acrisius suspects or is convinced that the nurse was complicit in a scheme which allowed Danae to receive a lover clandestinely inside her prison. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding Fragment 7 of Euripides' tragedy *Danae*, Karamanou says&lt;sup&gt;9&lt;/sup&gt; that it&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; illustrates the overwhelming power of gold over people and even over&#xD;&#xA;&gt; love. The widely held view is that Acrisius may have uttered these&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lines upon discovering the pieces of gold left from Zeus’&#xD;&#xA;&gt; transformation, assuming that his daughter was seduced by a rich&#xD;&#xA;&gt; man...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Karamanou's comments on the surrounding fragments from the same play suggest that here Danae is supposed to be innocent of any scheme involving money, but since her father levels such an accusation against her, she is compelled to argue in her own defense against such an idea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The notion that Zeus shed and left behind some of the gold into which he had transformed is uncannily reminiscent of modern science fiction and it would be intriguing if, as far back as Euripides, this is what is supposed to have taken place in the tragedian's version of the tale, whether Zeus did so deliberately or inadvertently. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Notes***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. In the *Zeitschrift für Kunstgeschichte* 54. Bd., H. 3 (1991), pp. 412-427.  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; Alternatively see Henry Zaidan's blog-post &quot;[23 Works of the Art Surrounding the Greek Myth of Danaë and the Shower of Gold](https://painting-mythology.blogspot.com/2015/07/23-works-of-art-surrounding-greek-myth.html).&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; For ancient vase paintings in particular, see Theoi.com's [Danae article](https://www.theoi.com/Heroine/Danae.html).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. In *The Art Bulletin* Vol. 60, No. 1 (Mar., 1978), pp. 43-55.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. On p. 417 of the *Zeitschrift für Kunstgeschichte* 54. Bd., H. 3 (1991).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;4. The quote is taken from p. 264 of *Greek Epigram from the Hellenistic to the Early Byzantine Era*, Edited by Maria Kanellou, Ivana Petrovic, &amp; Chris Carey (2019), Oxford University Press, United Kingdom.  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; The relevant section is Ch. 15 of this book (pp. 249-271), written by Kanellou, and entitled &quot;Mythological Burlesque and Satire in Greek Epigram—A Case Study: Zeus’ Seduction of Danae.&quot;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;5. From p. 19 of her January 2005 Doctoral Thesis &quot;A Commentary on Euripides' *Danae* and *Dictys*&quot; in University College London's Department of Greek and Latin, Published by ProQuest LLC, 2013, Ann Arbor, MI.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;6. On p. 12 of her book *Euripides* - Danae *and* Dictys: *Introduction, Text and Commentary* (2012), De Gruyter, Leipzig.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;7. From p. 67 of his Loeb Classical Library book *Sophocles: Fragments* (2003), Cambridge, Massachusetts &amp; London, England.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;8. Translation taken from a quotation by Madlyn Millner Kahr in her article &quot;Danaë: Virtuous, Voluptuous, Venal Woman&quot; in *The Art Bulletin* Vol. 60, No. 1 (Mar., 1978), pp. 43-55.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;9. On p. 78 of her Doctoral Thesis (see n. 4 for the full particulars thereof).&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/mTTxw.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/u8rAr.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21031" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6352" RevisionGUID="c23c8baa-008f-4aae-ad0f-3feef2f2f7c1" CreationDate="2020-05-08T13:42:39.923" UserId="6166" Text="Sigmund Freud in his book Moses And Monotheism puts forward the idea that, in addition to being partly based on some of the mythical figures mentioned in Codosaur's answer, the Moses we know today was also based on two historical people. Freud saw two religions fused to form Judaism, both founders having been called by the name Moses. Quoting Freud in Moses And Monotheism: &quot;The founding of two new religions, the first one ousted by the second and yet reappearing victorious, two founders of religions, who are both called by the same name Moses.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Freud, one of these two men was an Egyptian and probably a member of the Egyptian court of Ikhnaton (the pharaoh Amenhothep IV). After the Pharaoh's death, the cult on Amon collapsed and this Moses lead the Jews out of Egypt and imposed one god (then Amon) upon them.  The other Moses was a Medianite, quoting Freud (*op cit*) &quot;He [Moses] was the son-in-law of the Midianite priest Jethro and was tending his flocks when he received the divine summons.&quot; The second Moses worshiped the god Jahve. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21032" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6345" RevisionGUID="1555cc70-16c2-4cb3-98c7-f3214976d1dd" CreationDate="2020-05-08T14:14:08.967" UserId="5511" Comment="added 1099 characters in body" Text="The Mosaic myth is composed out of a multitude of older stories:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - the story of the infant Moses's salvation from the Nile is based on an earlier legend of [king Sargon of Akkad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sargon_of_Akkad)&#xD;&#xA; -  the story of the parting of the Red Sea is based on Mesopotamian creation mythology&#xD;&#xA; - the Covenant Code (the law code in Exodus 20:22–23:33) has similarities in both content and structure with [the Laws of Hammurabi][1]&#xD;&#xA; -  the story of Moses's flight to Midian following the murder of the Egyptian overseer is similar to the [Egyptian Story of Sinuhe][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Freud hypothesis stated in his book  [Der Mann Moses und die monotheistische Religion][3] that Mozes is based on 2 historical figures, one of them a member of the court of Akhenaten, is based on no historical evidence whatsoever. From the point-of-view of scholarly consensus amongst Egyptologists, the book is a provocative novelty containing many solid scholarly citations, many undisputed facts, alongside many tantalizing speculations some of which seem likely but unprovable, while others seem unlikely or indulgent. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In addition, Freud could not read hieroglyphs and there is no written record of anyone called Mozes in the court of Akhenaten. &quot;Mozes&quot; by itself is not an Egyptian name, it is only used in addition to a subject, like Toth-msi (literally &quot;created by Toth&quot;, which in older works is rendered Tuthmoses, although there is no philological reason to do so). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason many Biblical literalists persist in making this connection is twofold: that according to their calculating back from Biblical chronology, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_Hammurabi&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Story_of_Sinuhe&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_and_Monotheism" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21033" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6345" RevisionGUID="f8950312-9e98-4ffa-ae38-46eace59cb33" CreationDate="2020-05-08T14:22:27.693" UserId="5511" Comment="added 1099 characters in body" Text="The Mosaic myth is composed out of a multitude of older stories:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - the story of the infant Moses's salvation from the Nile is based on an earlier legend of [king Sargon of Akkad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sargon_of_Akkad)&#xD;&#xA; -  the story of the parting of the Red Sea is based on Mesopotamian creation mythology&#xD;&#xA; - the Covenant Code (the law code in Exodus 20:22–23:33) has similarities in both content and structure with [the Laws of Hammurabi][1]&#xD;&#xA; -  the story of Moses's flight to Midian following the murder of the Egyptian overseer is similar to the [Egyptian Story of Sinuhe][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Freud hypothesis stated in his book  [Der Mann Moses und die monotheistische Religion][3] that Mozes is based on 2 historical figures, one of them a member of the court of Akhenaten, is based on no historical evidence whatsoever. From the point-of-view of scholarly consensus amongst Egyptologists, the book is a provocative novelty containing many solid scholarly citations, many undisputed facts, alongside many tantalizing speculations some of which seem likely but unprovable, while others seem unlikely or indulgent. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In addition, Freud could not read hieroglyphs and there is no written record of anyone called Mozes in the court of Akhenaten. &quot;Mozes&quot; by itself is not an Egyptian name, it is only used in addition to a subject, like Toth-msi (literally &quot;created by Toth&quot;, which in older works is rendered Tuthmoses, although there is no philological reason to do so). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason many Biblical literalists persist in making this connection is twofold: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Akhenaten is arguably the oldest instigator of a monotheistic religion in that area of the world&#xD;&#xA; - according to literalist backtracking based on Biblical chronology, they argue that Akhenaten was the Pharaoh of the Exodus. Other candidates include:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Dedumose II (died c. 1690 BCE)&#xD;&#xA; - Ahmose I (1550–1525 BCE)&#xD;&#xA; - Ramesses II (c. 1279–1213 BCE)&#xD;&#xA; - Merneptah (c. 1213–1203 BCE)&#xD;&#xA; - Setnakhte (c. 1189–1186 BCE)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This hypothesis thus spans a 500-year period and no records whatsoever for any of these pharaos mention anything close to an Exodus. We *do* know from historical records that the supposed number of Hebrews fleeing Egypt was larger than the entire Egyptian population during the Middle Kingdom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_Hammurabi&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Story_of_Sinuhe&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_and_Monotheism" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21035" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6349" RevisionGUID="2120009b-45ef-4193-97fc-d64e328151fd" CreationDate="2020-05-09T07:12:32.887" UserId="2682" Comment="truncated Answer" Text="**Distracted by the Shine**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Starting at least in the 1st century BC, a standard interpretation of this story has been that Danae granted Zeus her favours in exchange for gold, i.e. she was seduced by the offer of money. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Recorded in the *Greek Anthology*, Parmenion might be earliest example of an author who contrasts the possibility of rape with the idea that it was a consensual trade when he says, addressing Zeus in *AP* 5.33 = *GPh* 1:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; You flew like gold rain to Danae, Olympian, so that the girl   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; would be won over by the gift, and not tremble before Cronides [*&quot;Cronus'&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Son&quot;*].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some four centuries later a Latin writer, namely Fulgentius, corroborates Parmenion's statement, saying of Danae in *Mythologies* 1.19 that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the god Jove [*i.e. Jupiter, the Roman Zeus*] showed her wealth and tricked with gold one he had been&#xD;&#xA;&gt; unable to trick by force.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Fast-forward to the 1500s AD, about a millennium later, and the Italian poet Giovanni Andrea dell’ Anguillara provides the first instance I have been able to find of Danae's emotional state upon meeting Zeus. According to Cathy Santore's 1991 article &quot;Danaë: The Renaissance Courtesan's Alter Ego,&quot;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When Anguillara retells Ovid's *Metamorphoses* he takes the liberty of embellishing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the tale to suit his fancy. He puts Danaë first in a garden then a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; loggia and finally in her room where Jove appears in bodily form. Her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; first reaction is to flee, but the god sweet talks her and shows her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; so much gold that he finally got what he wanted...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Violence on Stage?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Several tragedies and comedies entitled *Danae* were written in ancient times, featuring the character in question. All of them are now either completely lost or survive only in fragmentary form. Certain scholars seem to think that the remains of these plays might reveal a version of the tale in which Danae suffers an assault by Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the 300s BC, Eubulus wrote a comedy entitled *Danae*. Maria Kanellou says&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; that in Fragment 22 K-A of this play: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; it is most probably Danae who complains, after her rape, of Zeus’&#xD;&#xA;&gt; merciless brutality (*ὅς με κλάουσαν τότε* | *οὐκ ἠλέησεν*, ‘who did&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not show mercy to me when I was crying’).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Ioanna Karamanou the &quot;fragment presents Danae as complaining of being a victim of cruelty&quot; and that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It has been widely supposed that the incident to which Danae is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; referring is her rape by Zeus. I think that such an interpretation is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; plausible, considering that it is Zeus whom she blames for her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; misfortune in fr. 47a. 783-4 R. of the *Dictyulci*... and who is also&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the addressee of her plea in Simonides’ poem.&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This would be more conclusive except for the fact that we do *not* actually know for sure who is speaking here or what s\he might be referring to, nor even the precise context thereof.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Dictyulci* (&quot;Net-Haulers&quot;) to which Karamanou refers is yet another fragmentary comedy, this one a satyr-play by Aeschylus. We have a much better idea of what is going in it than in Eubulus' *Danae* (since its fragments are bigger). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the referenced passage, Danae and her little son Perseus have landed on the island of Seriphos and are being harassed by the god Seilenus and his gang of Satyrs. Terrified, Danae prays to Zeus for help, &quot;for you were guilty of the greater fault, but it is I who have paid the full penalty. I call upon you to set things right!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ancient Visual Arts Considerations**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rather less regarding forcefulness or precious metal, Daniel Ogden goes more into the question of Danae's actual feelings in his 2008 book *Perseus* (Routledge: Taylor &amp; Francis Group, London &amp; New York). On p. 18 he notes that Pherecydes of Athens&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is the earliest source to describe Zeus' access to Danae in any&#xD;&#xA;&gt; detail. He implies that Zeus... transformed himself into golden rain&#xD;&#xA;&gt; merely for the purpose of getting through the skylight, but then&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reverted to humanoid form in order to have sex with the girl&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Pherecydes *FGH* 3 *fr.* 26 = *fr.* 10 Fowler)... But the remainder&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the literary sources imply that Zeus retained the form of golden&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rain to flow directly into Danae's loins, as a sort of golden sperm...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And this indeed is the way artists liked to portray the scene, with a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shower of golden rain heading straight for Danae's lap (*LIMC* Danae&#xD;&#xA;&gt; nos. 1-39, the earliest of which dates from *ca.* 490 BC). But for all&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that he impregnated her in the form of pure seed, Danae was evidently&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not denied sexual pleasure in the congress. In many images, from the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mid-fifth century onwards, she actively welcomes the seed into her lap&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by holding her dress out of the way to receive it (*LIMC* Danae nos.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 7, 8, 9,&lt;sup&gt;✭&lt;/sup&gt; 19, 26, 33) or alternatively uses the folds of her dress to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; collect it (*LIMC* Danae nos. 5, 10, 12, 31). In some her head is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; actually thrown back in ecstasy (note especially the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mid-fourth-century BC chalcedony intaglio, *LIMC* Danae no. 11).&lt;sup&gt;✭✭&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Louvre Danae vase][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;✭ Ogden inserts a reference here to a drawing of this vase (above), appearing on p. 14 of his book.&lt;/sup&gt;    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Danae intaglio][2]][2]   &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;✭✭ The 4th-century BC intaglio mentioned by Ogden (© *The State Hermitage Museum, St. Petersburg*)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sophocles' *Danae***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ogden also, however, briefly considers (on p. 15 of his book) the sole significant scrap of Sophocles' tragedy *Danae* which has survived the ravages of time: Fragment 165.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Amongst the fragments of the *Danae* we may find Acrisius' voice in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the phrase, 'I don't know about the rape. But one thing I do know is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that I am done for if this child lives'...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Quoting the text in its original Greek, Karamanou comments&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (οὐκ οἶδα τὴν σὴν πεῖραν· ἓν δ᾽ ἐπίσταμαι·/ τοῦ παιδὸς ὄντος τοῦδ᾽ ἐγώ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; διόλλυμαι)... was evidently spoken by Acrisius rejecting Danae’s&#xD;&#xA;&gt; possible allegation that she was the victim of forcible usage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odgen is rather loosely paraphrasing when he uses the word &quot;rape&quot;, though, which is how he has translated πεῖραν (*peîran*), which simply means &quot;attempt&quot; or &quot;trial&quot;, such as in Hugh Lloyd-Jones' translation: &quot;I do not know what you mean by an 'attempt'&quot;.&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the narrative context, it seems very reasonable, as Ogden and Karamanou both say, that it is most likely Acrisius here speaking about the young boy Perseus. As for the matter of the πεῖραν, however, it is certainly speculative to conclude that this &quot;attempt&quot; must mean &quot;rape.&quot; It perhaps is what Sophocles meant by it, but we have nothing apart from that conjecture to lean on in this case.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Imprisonment Itself**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As to whether Danae would have gone into her sequestration willingly or otherwise, the ancient sources leave us with even less material than we have for the subject of choices in her encounter with Zeus. In other words, they say pretty much nothing on the issue, and we are left to speculate based on whatever our own sentiments about this might be.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would guess that Danae was none too enthusiastic about being locked up. Moreover, with the heavy emphasis—throughout the story's coverage since ancient times up until the Renaissance—upon the idea that Zeus paid Danae in gold currency in order to obtain his desire, one might wonder what a prisoner like Danae could need money for.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only answer I could come up with is that she wished to attempt an escape using these funds. And as it so happens, this is the same conclusion arrived at by the earliest source I have come across for an answer to this part of your inquiry, namely Giovanni Boccaccio's *Genealogy of the Gods of the Gentiles* (whose first version was completed in 1360 AD). In Book 2, Ch. 33 of this work, Boccaccio cites a certain Theodontius, saying that, according to *him*: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Danaë, being loved by Jove, and knowing that out of fear her father&#xD;&#xA;&gt; had condemned her to perpetual imprisonment, in order to escape and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; secretly take flight, made a bargain with Jove at the price of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; intercourse with him.&lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Wikipedia, Boccaccio's *Genealogy* quotes this Theodontius extensively but he &quot;is otherwise almost unknown... Some authorities think Boccaccio invented him.  Carlo Landi argued... that Boccaccio's Theodontius was a Campanian philosopher, from between the 9th and 11th centuries.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Notes***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. In the *Zeitschrift für Kunstgeschichte* 54. Bd., H. 3, pp. 412-427. (The dell’ Anguillara quotation is taken from p. 417.)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. The quote is taken from p. 264 of *Greek Epigram from the Hellenistic to the Early Byzantine Era*, Edited by Maria Kanellou, Ivana Petrovic, &amp; Chris Carey (2019), Oxford University Press, United Kingdom.  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; The relevant section is Ch. 15 of this book (pp. 249-271), written by Kanellou, and entitled &quot;Mythological Burlesque and Satire in Greek Epigram—A Case Study: Zeus’ Seduction of Danae.&quot;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. From p. 19 of her January 2005 Doctoral Thesis &quot;A Commentary on Euripides' *Danae* and *Dictys*&quot; in University College London's Department of Greek and Latin, Published by ProQuest LLC, 2013, Ann Arbor, MI.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;4. On p. 12 of her book *Euripides* - Danae *and* Dictys: *Introduction, Text and Commentary* (2012), De Gruyter, Leipzig.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;5. From p. 67 of his Loeb Classical Library book *Sophocles: Fragments* (2003), Cambridge, Massachusetts &amp; London, England.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;6. Translation taken from a quotation by Madlyn Millner Kahr in her article &quot;Danaë: Virtuous, Voluptuous, Venal Woman&quot; in *The Art Bulletin* Vol. 60, No. 1 (Mar., 1978), pp. 43-55 (specifically p. 44).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/mTTxw.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/u8rAr.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21036" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6353" RevisionGUID="b9de0682-e06a-494d-bc99-30e533b6c3e5" CreationDate="2020-05-09T10:20:54.350" UserId="2682" Text="**Cold Hard Cash**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The overwhelmingly predominant interpretation, at least starting from the 1st century BC, is that the gold = money, although this view started out, it seems, simply as an accusation potentially made by Danae's father Acrisius in Euripides' (now fragmentary) tragedy *Danae* a few centuries prior to that. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In what we know from other sources, Danae swears to Acrisius that her child has been sired by Zeus but Acrisius refuses to believe it, thinking it must be some rich mortal man, or such the like, who paid with gold for her favours. The myth provided much fodder for comedians, who took the accusation and ran with it, except that in their jabs it really *is* Zeus who is paying to have Danae consort with him, and thus the divine gold explicitly becomes gold *coinage*, such as is claimed by Antipater of Thessalonica and by Parmenion in the *Greek Anthology* (as cited by yannis in his Answer).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Comedic though these writings are, they are nonetheless, attempts to rationalise away a fantastical element of the tale while still keeping Zeus in the picture as the perpetrator of this prostitution (allowing the writers to have their cake and eat it too). If, however, we're looking for a less rationalist-symbolic and more in-universe answer to the question, the aforementioned Antipater points the way, incidentally, if not necessarily deliberately.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Primordial Golden Man of the First Era**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Antipater alludes to the epic myth, narrated by Hesiod and others, of different successive phases or breeds of men in primordial times, the first three of whom were made of gold, silver and then bronze. According to Hesiod's *Works and Days*, the first stock of men, made of gold, lived in the time of Zeus' father the Titan Kronos, and it seems that their time ended together with Kronos' reign. The silver men who replaced the gold ones were destroyed by Zeus and in turn were replaced by men of bronze prior to the Phase of Heroes (Zeus' and Danae's son Perseus being one of these heroes).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Antipater reduces all of this into a metaphor for the varying degrees of financial ability to pay in order to be &quot;honoured&quot; by Cythereia (i.e. Aphrodite, the goddess of sex). Maria Kanellou comments on this, saying&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Antipater of Thessalonica cleverly blends together the concepts&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of golden Aphrodite, the golden age of the human race, and Zeus’&#xD;&#xA;&gt; metamorphosis into gold. Aphrodite, the patroness of hetaerae, is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; constantly described as golden from Homer onwards, and in Antipater&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *AP* 5.30 = *GPh* 6 the speaker humorously argues that the epic poet rightly attributed the epithet to Aphrodite since one cannot have sex&#xD;&#xA;&gt; if one does not pay. In *AP* 5.31, Antipater expands on this idea, as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aphrodite is not just golden but also brazen and silver.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;The adjective ‘golden’ joins together the two myths and makes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; easy the transition from the golden race of men to the golden client&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and then golden Zeus and the allegation that he paid 100 golden coins&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to have sex with Danae.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Plato's *Cratylus* 398a, Socrates argues that when Hesiod calls the first mortal men &quot;golden&quot; he simply means that they were &quot;good and beautiful.&quot; Apollodorus, and Apollonius Rhodius, however, give a report to the effect that the more general (rather than Platonic philosophical) belief was that different types of metallic men had actually lived on Earth back in the day, for both authors say that Talos, the gigantic brazen sentinel of Crete Island, is supposed to have been a survivor of the time of the bronze breed of men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is therefore quite plausible that Zeus appeared to Danae as one of the golden men of the *Works and Days*: the best men, from the paradisaical first stage in the history of mortals. When this group of men died out, say Lines 121-125 of this poem, the Earth covered them over and they became benevolent surface-dwelling *daimones* [daemons] who roamed all over the world, &quot;clothed in mist&quot; as they kept watch over humankind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many points of resonance between that and Danae's impregnation narrative, in the latter of which: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - according to the oldest accounts thereof, her prison is located underground&#xD;&#xA;   (the direction in which the golden men have gone upon their demise);&#xD;&#xA; - she goes under the earth and thereafter is restored to the upper world from which she came, while Zeus descends into her chamber and then disappears thereafter, as mysteriously as he arrived (like the mist in which the golden *daimones* are enveloped); and&#xD;&#xA; - she is eventually rescued from the sea, courtesy of the watchfulness of Zeus (according to Hyginus), having given birth to a hero who delivers from harm (like the *daimones* are said to do).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Foreshadowing the Hero**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It might at first seem far-fetched to think that, consequently, Perseus was partially golden himself, but perhaps it warrants some consideration when noticing the manner in which the theme of gold crops up at nearly every highlight of this hero's career, upon more of which we arrive further below. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After Perseus dies his father places him into the sky as the constellation which bears his name. In Seneca's *Hercules Furens*, the dead hero's divine stepmother refers to him as &quot;golden Perseus&quot;. She might be referring to the celestial star-cluster into which he has been made, or she could mean that the mortal man was himself, in some way, composed of the precious substance in view here. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Antipater, and his fellow epigrammatist Paul the Silentiary, and virtually every commentator on the story since their time have noted the juxtaposition of the gold into which Zeus transforms over against the cell of bronze within which Acrisius has imprisoned Danae, and which becomes the place where the golden Zeus impregnates the princess with Perseus. For them, however, the significance of the comparison between the two metals is simply as sexual innuendo or, at most, as symbolism representing the power of bribery over the toughest of obstacles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The appearance of these substances at the beginning of Perseus' story, however, not only hearkens to Antipater's allusion to Hesiod's metal men, but it also sets up a thematic undercurrent in Perseus' adventures, which begin as soon as he is born. According to *Danae's Lament*, composed by the poet Simonides, the wooden chest which Acrisius casts into the sea, containing our &quot;golden boy&quot; Perseus together with his mother, is bolted with bronze. (According to Hesiod and Apollonius, the bronze stock of men was born from ash-trees, and so these mortals were probably partially wooden as well.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Gorgons, against whom Perseus contends, have bronze hands and golden wings, and one of the creatures born from the blood spilled by Perseus upon his beheading of Medusa is named Chrysaor, &quot;Golden Blade,&quot; because he is born wielding a golden sword. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his mission against the Gorgons, Perseus is outfitted with a bronze shield. On Hesiod's *Shield of Heracles*, Perseus appears upon the titular shield in the form of a fully golden man over whose shoulders is slung a sword &quot;by a cross-belt of bronze.&quot; (The magic satchel he carries is silver, trimmed with golden tassels.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his encounter with Atlas in Libya, the conflict between him and the Titan is on account of Atlas' dread that a son of Zeus is destined to steal his golden apples. According to Hesiod's *Theogony*, Atlas dwells at the edge of the Earth, by the entrance to the Underworld where Night meets Day across a threshold of bronze. (In the same poem, Chrysaor's father Poseidon is closely associated with the bronze of the Underworld.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Freedom and Transcendence**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The bronze of Danae's prison, from ancient into Renaissance times, has typically been interpreted to represent restriction and prohibition, and it surely does represent these things. In that case the gold, whether we interpret it as something as mundane as money or as supernatural as a gigantic primaeval golden man, represents freedom for Danae.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For Perseus it introduces his worth: the hardiness making him equal to the task of going up against literally metallic monsters. It also represents transcendence: just as the Gorgons' golden wings allow them to fly, so too shall Perseus be a hero who can literally take to the skies, and having started out being born in a dungeon and nearly drowned at a tender age, he traverses the entire world, from the western edge of the cosmos in Libya to the land of the Hyperboreans in the north, and unto Ethiopia in the south. According to Hyginus, his translation into the sky as a constellation means that he also transcends death itself to become one of the immortals: Seneca's &quot;golden Perseus&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sunlight**    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Citing Ovid, Horace and the Vatican Mythographers, Ioanna Karamanou notes&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; that &quot;Certain Latin sources refer to Danae’s imprisonment in a tower rather than a chamber&quot;. This becomes the preferred version for Christian commentators on the story, upon whose work Madlyn Millner Kahr elaborates&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; as follows in her article &quot;Danaë: Virtuous, Voluptuous, Venal Woman.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;In the twelfth century, the allegorical interpretation of myths&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was already well established in the service of Christian moral&#xD;&#xA;&gt; teachings. Danaë became a symbol of modesty, *Pudicitia*, and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tower that protected her virtue represented Chastity. Danae even&#xD;&#xA;&gt; served as a parallel to the Virgin Mary in a Moralized Ovid as early&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as 1328.&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Some sixty years later the Dominican monk, Franciscus de Retza,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wrote: &quot;If Danaë conceived from Jupiter through a golden shower, why&#xD;&#xA;&gt; should the Virgin not give birth when impregnated by the Holy Spirit?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ... A woodcut&lt;sup&gt;✭&lt;/sup&gt; in the first Basel edition (ca. 1490) of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Franciscus de Retza's *Defensorium Inviolatae Virginitatis Marie*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shows the chaste Danaë leaning out of the window of her tower, which&#xD;&#xA;&gt; resembles a chessman more than a prison. The germinating power of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sun represents Jove's golden shower...&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Allegorical interpretations based on the tradition of the chaste&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Danaë also survived in Renaissance texts. Pierio Valeriano wrote: &quot;The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; poets related that gold poured into the lap of Danaë, the most&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beautiful of women. They mean by 'Danaë' the beauty of the soul, which&#xD;&#xA;&gt; comprises the natural virtues that God loves; indeed, they signify by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the 'golden shower' the abundant flow of heavenly favor, which must be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sought from the love and mercy of God...&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Retza Danae 1490 woodcut][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;✭ Kahr inserts a reference here to this image (above), which appears as &quot;Fig. 1&quot; in her article, also going on to say&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; that:&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Of all the sixteenth-century examples, the Danaë in 1527 by Jan&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gossaert&lt;sup&gt;✭✭&lt;/sup&gt; was the most explicitly a &quot;good Danaë&quot; in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tradition of the medieval *Pudicitia* type. Gossaert's Danaë&#xD;&#xA;&gt; represents a direct parallel to the Virgin of Humility. Her robe is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; blue, a color associated with the Virgin Mary. She wears a delicate&#xD;&#xA;&gt; diadem, like that worn by the Madonna in Gossaert's painting in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Prague, *Saint Luke Painting the Virgin*. Though humble, Mary is Queen&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Heaven, and Danae is a princess. Danaë's exposed breast might link&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her with *Maria lactans*, mother of all, although the breast, like her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bare legs, could also be construed as sexually suggestive. She sits on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cushions on the floor, a token of her humility in the presence of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; divinity, toward whose manifestation she lifts her eyes. In her skirt&#xD;&#xA;&gt; she collects the drops of gold that stream into her lap from above.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Her airy environment suggests grandeur rather than imprisonment, an&#xD;&#xA;&gt; impression strengthened by the fact that other imposing buildings are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; visible between the graceful Renaissance columns of her chamber.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jove's golden presence recalls the medieval association of gold with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the highest Christian values.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Gossaert Danae][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;✭✭ A reference to &quot;Fig. 2,&quot; a copy&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; of this painting (above) is inserted here in Kahr's article.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the 21st century AD, at least two paintings, Gene Gould's *Danae* and Kyle Staver's *Danae and the Parakeet*, actually depict the shower upon the princess as real rays of sunlight.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Returning to the older configuration of the myth, if Zeus's descent *underground*, into Danae's dungeon (rather than into a tower), happened to go via the chamber's roof and cause damage to it, he may have brought actual sunlight into the cell, which, depending on the design, may not have previously had access to natural light. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Rain**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Somewhat offhandedly, Footnote 20 of Kahr's article says&lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt; that &quot;Danaë is also associated with Mother Earth, requiring rain for germination.&quot; She does not elaborate further on this at all, but it seems that it is an opinion shared by Robert Graves, who also links Zeus in this story to the sun. On pp. 243-244 of *The Greek Myths* (1960, Penguin Books) he claims that&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zeus's impregnation of Danaë with a shower of gold must refer to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ritual marriage of the Sun and Moon... It can also be read as a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; pastoral allegory: 'water is gold' for the shepherd, and Zeus sends&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thunder-showers on the earth – Danaë.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Notes***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. See p. 261 of *Greek Epigram from the Hellenistic to the Early Byzantine Era*, Edited by Maria Kanellou, Ivana Petrovic, &amp; Chris Carey (2019), Oxford University Press, United Kingdom.  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; The relevant section is Ch. 15 of this book (pp. 249-271), written by Kanellou, and entitled &quot;Mythological Burlesque and Satire in Greek Epigram—A Case Study: Zeus’ Seduction of Danae.&quot;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. From p. 9 of her January 2005 Doctoral Thesis &quot;A Commentary on Euripides' Danae and Dictys&quot; in University College London's Department of Greek and Latin, Published by ProQuest LLC, 2013, Ann Arbor, MI.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. In *The Art Bulletin* Vol. 60, No. 1 (Mar., 1978), pp. 43-55. (Quotes taken specifically from p. 44).&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;4. Ibid, pp. 45-46.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;5. MrArifnajafov. 8 February 2012, &quot;Jan Gossaert gen. Mabuse (1478-1532) Danae (1527),&quot; Privatarchiv Foto von MrArifnajafov fotografiert, viewed 9 May 2020, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Danae_(1527).JPG&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;6. *The Art Bulletin* Vol. 60, No. 1 (Mar., 1978), p. 46.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Fq3xE.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/47MX6.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21042" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6355" RevisionGUID="8a3fd7ab-740a-4d4f-ab4c-97047b94c90e" CreationDate="2020-05-10T06:15:25.767" UserId="6804" Text="I believe in God and Christianity and have had this question for a while. Are there scriptural references to good magic outside of heavenly miracles or priesthood? I know there are many stories of (evil) witchcraft, demons, and stuff but I am unable to find it being used by and for good. Please provide scripture references if any examples are found." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21043" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6355" RevisionGUID="8a3fd7ab-740a-4d4f-ab4c-97047b94c90e" CreationDate="2020-05-10T06:15:25.767" UserId="6804" Text="Are There Biblical References to Good Magic?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21044" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6355" RevisionGUID="8a3fd7ab-740a-4d4f-ab4c-97047b94c90e" CreationDate="2020-05-10T06:15:25.767" UserId="6804" Text="|christianity|bible|magic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21045" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6356" RevisionGUID="272533a7-797b-493b-8d71-1c4eaef9d028" CreationDate="2020-05-10T08:57:30.540" UserId="5511" Text="From the introduction of [THE DEPICTION OF MAGIC IN RABBINIC TEXTS: THE RABBINIC AND THE GREEK CONCEPT OF MAGIC][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.jstor.org/stable/24660070?read-now=1&amp;refreqid=excelsior%3A792509578907306a5078e35db60df102&amp;seq=2#page_scan_tab_contents&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/BV9Ep.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/plpzM.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21046" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5048" RevisionGUID="2255a646-ef54-4fd1-9fe7-9965a8cbcf26" CreationDate="2020-05-10T17:02:16.947" UserId="3315" Comment="typos corrected" Text="Anunnaki - Gods of Sumeria Or fallen Angels??&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found it very interesting that the earliest civilisation known to us in the historical records, the Sumerians, have a religion that talks of these Anunnaki coming down from heaven and teaching them all wonders of things. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found a correlation between fallen angels and the Anunnaki. It's rather coincidental that our faith teaches of a war that ended in one third of the angels falling to earth, whilst in our history we have our first civilisation who are taught by Gods who &quot;came&quot; from the heavens. Perhaps they did not so much come from heaven as they where kicked out. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now after reading numbers(13: 28) in the scripture I came across the descendants of Anak who where described as giants.  The word Anak  itself  sounded eerily similar to the Anunnaki which I had recently been studying and so it got me thinking. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After further reading I came across Numbers 13:33 (In parenthesis though of course) in which I was informed that the Anakites come from the nephilim! So, if we take this all together we can see that;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We have the war of heaven a long time ago and then we also have beings coming from the sky to be worshipped by the Sumerians as Gods; also a long time ago. We know the Sumerians called these Gods anunnaki. Is it such a stretch to theorise that the fallen angels of our faith are the &quot;so called Gods&quot; coming to the Sumerians? We know God's hate for Babylon and Babylon is really just another form of the Sumerian culture which came after Sumaria in the same location.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then we read in the Bible of a people descendant from anuk who are giant and strong who come from the nephilim: Numbers 13:32.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now of course I don't have to mention that the nephilim are also called the sons of God, and the sons of God is another word for angels.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So it is clear that not only in language is their a similarity between the word anak or anakites and the anunnaki. But also in the relationship between the Anakites being descendants of nephelim and the anakites being heavenly beings. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think it's probably that like in the Bible the anakites are descendent from angels, so to are the anunnaki angels who have fallen from heaven. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interesting facts. The Anunnaki interestingly has been said to mean princely offspring. The devil is known as the prince of the sky." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21047" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5048" RevisionGUID="2255a646-ef54-4fd1-9fe7-9965a8cbcf26" CreationDate="2020-05-10T17:02:16.947" Comment="Proposed by 3315 approved by 53, 5726 edit id of 1809" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21048" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6357" RevisionGUID="b8007c24-f136-4cad-9a4d-1eff14f853e1" CreationDate="2020-05-11T09:14:53.330" UserId="6922" Text="I am working on my dissertation on An Táin Bó Culaigne. I (sadly) can't work from the Old Irish text but am relying on using translation to explore a point I am making about Early Irish society. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is this a valid mode of inquiry?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am reading some postcolonial theory on the unequivocal nature of translation and some mythology theory on myth as an ahistorical presence and am doubting my decision to work from two translated editions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a bit of a panic. Any help appreciated in opinion or direction of reading. Thank you." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21049" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6357" RevisionGUID="b8007c24-f136-4cad-9a4d-1eff14f853e1" CreationDate="2020-05-11T09:14:53.330" UserId="6922" Text="Is it sound to acdemically analyse myth in translation? (An Táin Bó)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21050" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6357" RevisionGUID="b8007c24-f136-4cad-9a4d-1eff14f853e1" CreationDate="2020-05-11T09:14:53.330" UserId="6922" Text="|folklore|mythohistory|irish|translation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21051" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6358" RevisionGUID="c1099b55-32df-4bb5-a4f0-1d97991e6d02" CreationDate="2020-05-11T10:22:48.467" UserId="5511" Text="This has always been a painful area in philology for several reasons:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In many cases, verses in the original text can have several inferred meanings. For some languages and cultures, this is actually part of the tradition. For example, in Literary Chinese, each verse of the Tao Te Ching can be translated in several ways, each with a significantly different meaning. &#xD;&#xA; - Translations, especially early translations, were usually done by missionaries and are coloured by the religious convictions of the translator. For example, in early translations of Chinese text, you ill often come across the phrase &quot;Mandate Of Heaven&quot;, where the word choice of &quot;heaven&quot; is preferred to match Christian cosmology. But this is not exactly the same or limited to what the Chinese text infers.&#xD;&#xA; - Idioms can be very hard or impossible to translate, [as this study details][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you *have* to work from translations, I would recommend to compare as many translations as possible and pay special attention to textual variants. Specifically for the Táin Bó Cúailnge, I would recommend ignoring the Victorian translations as they tend to censor the explicit content of the original text. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The version by (Kinsella 1969) is generally considered to be the most acurate translation in English. If you master German, (Windisch 1905) is considered to be complete, and lacks alterations and omissions due to conflicts of interests in the mind of contemporary Irish scholars.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would also recommend verifying against decent studies that were already done on the subject matter, such as [A Study Guide for Anonymous's &quot;Tain Bo Cuailnge&quot;][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hope this helps.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.academypublication.com/issues/past/tpls/vol03/09/27.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.be/books?id=3MM3DQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT24&amp;dq=T%C3%A1in%20B%C3%B3%20C%C3%BAailnge&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwitpKu2y6vpAhVJyaQKHZnbDdEQ6AEIRDAE#v=onepage&amp;q=T%C3%A1in%20B%C3%B3%20C%C3%BAailnge&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21052" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6359" RevisionGUID="a7e140be-78d1-49c8-8f5c-8630361f342f" CreationDate="2020-05-11T18:46:28.413" UserId="6923" Text="I've seen that sometimes gods in Greek Mythology have different names than the gods in Roman mythology. I've also seen that they are basically the same god just with different names. What makes Greek and Roman so different that they split it up into two different mythology categories?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21053" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6359" RevisionGUID="a7e140be-78d1-49c8-8f5c-8630361f342f" CreationDate="2020-05-11T18:46:28.413" UserId="6923" Text="Whats are the similarities and differences between Greek gods and Roman gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21054" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6359" RevisionGUID="a7e140be-78d1-49c8-8f5c-8630361f342f" CreationDate="2020-05-11T18:46:28.413" UserId="6923" Text="|greek|comparative|roman|names|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21055" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6222" RevisionGUID="3307ac6b-6dfe-4173-9dd8-f0c39da62722" CreationDate="2020-05-11T21:04:10.403" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="21056" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6360" RevisionGUID="fbbf229f-a4ff-434f-a3ad-b0d397a52903" CreationDate="2020-05-11T23:42:54.993" UserId="6920" Text="Actually, while the evidence is fragmentary and confusing, it points more to their having been separate, and then merging together.  There are several elements contributing here to the identification.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There were the &lt;I&gt;interpretatio graeca&lt;/I&gt; and also the &lt;I&gt;interpretatio romana&lt;/I&gt; in which Greeks and Romans respectively interpreted another culture's gods as their own gods under another name.  For instance, Tacitus wrote that the chief god of the Germans was Mercury -- probably Odin.  And Greeks so identified Hermes with Thoth that they adopted Thoth's title for &quot;Hermes Trismegistus.&quot;  Both cultures interpreting the other gods as their own helped draw them together.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Romans also practiced the rite of &lt;I&gt;evocatio&lt;/I&gt;, which was to lure away the tutelary god of a place they were besieging to Rome by offering a greater cult or a richer temple.  When the other city was Greek, a Greek god would be added, though they often interpreted this god as equivalent of an existing one as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was never perfect, though.  They never succeeded in identifying a Greek god with Janus, and the Roman Mars was considerably better thought of than the Greek Ares, and was a god not only of war but of agriculture." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21058" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4820" RevisionGUID="1e9b296b-c205-4a03-9765-70849ef4957d" CreationDate="2020-05-12T11:07:25.890" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="21059" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6362" RevisionGUID="24e2fb27-5869-4ecf-9b39-221de9473ae3" CreationDate="2020-05-13T01:32:51.683" UserId="6920" Text="In beast fables, the animals are very fixed in character to convey the meaning -- foxes and ravens are crafty, bears are strong but stupid, wolves are fierce, and lions are commanding frequently to the point of being tyrannical.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In regions where tigers are common, what sort of character are they depicted as in fables?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21060" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6362" RevisionGUID="24e2fb27-5869-4ecf-9b39-221de9473ae3" CreationDate="2020-05-13T01:32:51.683" UserId="6920" Text="What is the fable character of a tiger?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21061" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6362" RevisionGUID="24e2fb27-5869-4ecf-9b39-221de9473ae3" CreationDate="2020-05-13T01:32:51.683" UserId="6920" Text="|animals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21062" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6363" RevisionGUID="410548b2-e5d8-4349-9fac-76db2c400db7" CreationDate="2020-05-13T03:24:37.753" UserId="6929" Text="Death does not occur in an instant. There is an interval between the cessation of all signs of life and the separation of the soul of the deceased from his or her body. Often, if the newly deceased was prepared for death, this latter event occurs smoothly and without a struggle. Sometimes, however, the transition from life to death is difficult (as when the newly deceased was not prepared for death and resists the separation of soul from body). In such cases, the separation can be traumatic for the spirit of the newly dead, as well as for the ferryman.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the moment of death, the deceased's &quot;shade&quot; follows the body to the bank of the river. The shade gives the ferryman an obol, symbolizing the value of the ferryman's help in safely carrying body and shade to the otherworld. The ferryman places the coin in the mouth of the newly deceased to protect him (the ferryman, as well as the spirit of the dead) from the possibility that the spirit will resist being wrenched from the body. It was believed that in such cases the dead would let out a loud cry, a wail or keening that could be heard up and down the banks of the river. For the same reason, to make the journey easier on both the spirit of the dead and for the ferryman, the eyelids of the dead are closed so that he or she doesn't have to see the process of his or her soul being separated from the body.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21065" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="994" RevisionGUID="fe4dd57c-1f89-4a31-8194-ad2be2d99fae" CreationDate="2020-05-13T07:05:32.133" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="21067" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6364" RevisionGUID="292c40d1-292b-4cbf-b4f3-2fd2cc16ad6b" CreationDate="2020-05-13T07:05:57.210" UserId="6930" Text="According to Indian mythology,the demon Vritra( an indian dragon) representing drought is enemy of Indra (the king of gods and god of rain). Indra rides elephant named Airavata. So elephant representing Indra and dragon representing vritra are enemies. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21068" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="25" RevisionGUID="952452ce-4789-415a-8751-edfea3735462" CreationDate="2020-05-13T07:06:03.470" UserId="-1" Comment="Jesus is more referred to as a lamb than a lion. It does say how he was like a lion, but her is more commonly referred to as a lamb or a shepherd. " Text="Egyptian gods were often depicted in therianthrophic – part human, part animal form, to depict the personality of that particular god/ess in a symbolic way. For example, Sekhmet, goddess of ferocious war, was sometimes shown with the head a lioness, as lions are ferocious creatures. Similarly Anubis was shown with a jackal head because the jackal was associated with the necropolis and Anubis was a god of the dead. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are also theriomorphic depictions, where gods are shown entirely in animal form.  These are quite common, and in fact were the most common representations of gods in the very earliest periods of Egyptian history. For example, Anubis as a black jackal, or Thoth as either an ibis or a white baboon. Taweret was even a hybrid of hippo, crocodile and lioness. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is the same reasoning behind why Christians equate Jesus with the lamb, or why we give angels wings. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21069" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="25" RevisionGUID="952452ce-4789-415a-8751-edfea3735462" CreationDate="2020-05-13T07:06:03.470" Comment="Proposed by anonymous approved by 5726, 108 edit id of 1810" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21070" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6365" RevisionGUID="3bd36b66-41ac-4ea3-b356-d4e2956f006f" CreationDate="2020-05-13T08:43:00.160" UserId="4152" Text="According to Charles D. Roberts, writing in [*The Kindred of the Wild*][1], he gives a little history of the fable. He says of the (unnamed) tiger:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These earliest observers of animal life were compelled by the necessities of the case to observe truly, if not deeply. Pitting their wits against those of their four-foot rivals, they had to know their antagonists, and respect them, in order to overcome them. But it was only the most salient characteristics of each species that concerned the practical observer. It was simple to remember that the tiger was cruel, the fox cunning, the wolf rapacious.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He mentions several by name (Reynard the Fox, Isengrim the Wolf, etc), but does not name the tiger. I've not been able to find a name for the tiger in my research either, though, that doesn't mean there isn't one. Just that I've not found it!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/46040/46040-h/46040-h.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21071" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6366" RevisionGUID="347c761b-e8ff-453f-a981-c77dd2a76cc6" CreationDate="2020-05-14T04:32:01.700" UserId="6934" Text="In the Prologue to the Prose Edda, he seems to develop a geneology of the Norse Gods being descendant of the Trojans. Starting with the Greek goddess Priam, he develops connections, like for example Thor being son of the Ethiopian king Mennon. Why did he do this in the prologue, what was its purpose?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21072" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6366" RevisionGUID="347c761b-e8ff-453f-a981-c77dd2a76cc6" CreationDate="2020-05-14T04:32:01.700" UserId="6934" Text="Why did Snorri Sturlson link the Norse Gods to the Trojans?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21073" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6366" RevisionGUID="347c761b-e8ff-453f-a981-c77dd2a76cc6" CreationDate="2020-05-14T04:32:01.700" UserId="6934" Text="|greek|norse|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21077" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5563" RevisionGUID="d74224ae-61e2-42bf-a0bc-6a68498fa8f5" CreationDate="2020-05-14T20:24:30.410" UserId="5726" Comment="minor tweaks and added extra source hyperlink" Text="Hephaestus’ ugly appearance and lameness is taken by some to represent peripheral neuropathy and skin cancer resulting from arsenicosis caused by arsenic exposure from metalworking.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Bronze age smiths added arsenic to copper to produce harder arsenical bronze, especially during periods of tin scarcity. Many Bronze Age smiths would have suffered from chronic arsenic poisoning as a result of their livelihood. &lt;sub&gt;[Iaia, Cristiano. (2013). Smiths and Smithing in Bronze Age 'Terramare'. &lt;/sub&gt;][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Consequently, the mythic image of the lame smith is widespread as will be explained later. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As Hephaestus was an iron-age smith, not a bronze-age smith, the connection is possibly one from ancient folk memory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**There is certainly no direct reference to any of these&#xD;&#xA;diseases in the ancient literature, and the best evidence&#xD;&#xA;for the possibility that recognizable arsenic toxicity&#xD;&#xA;existed is the indirect inference that may be drawn&#xD;&#xA;from the history of usage.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So far as other evidence for&#xD;&#xA;[chronic metal poisoning][2] is concerned it is only possible to draw conclusions in the manner that has been&#xD;&#xA;attempted here-that is, based on the probability of&#xD;&#xA;exposure estimated from a consideration of the processes and materials.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A common effect of [chronic arsenic poisoning][3] is&#xD;&#xA;[dermatitis][4] and [hyperkeratosis][5] sometimes associated&#xD;&#xA;with [arsenical melanosis][6], which may lead to the development of [skin cancer][7]. These symptoms would have been readily and obviously associated with arsenic&#xD;&#xA;exposure. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the long term another important manifestation of chronic arsenic poisoning is the development of a [peripheral neuritis][8] which may lead to **weakness in the legs and feet.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this connection it should be noted that the [patron gods of craftsmen][9]&#xD;&#xA;such as the Greek [Hephaistos][10], Roman [Vulcan][11], Teutonic [Wieland/Wayland/Völundr][12], and the Finnish [Ilmarinen][13] are all lame. *Such a widespread association of a particular symptom with a single&#xD;&#xA;occupation (smithing and craftwork) has led to the suggestion that this could&#xD;&#xA;have resulted from arsenical neuropathy.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;There are two possible techniques for the gilding of&#xD;&#xA;copper and silver using mercury. In the first the surface of the base metal object is [amalgamated][14] by rubbing mercury on to it followed by the application of gold leaf. In the second, used by the Greeks, a prepared gold mercury amalgam is spread over the base&#xD;&#xA;metal surface. In either case pretreatment with a mercury salt is helpful and the final stage is to heat the metal to evaporate the mercury leaving a continuous&#xD;&#xA;and strongly adherent film of gold on the surface.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Other metals also form amalgams with mercury, the&#xD;&#xA;saturated weight percentage solution (at 20°C) being&#xD;&#xA;2-15% for zinc, 0-61% for tin, and 1 3% for lead compared with 0-00032% for copper. There is a considerable likelihood of a solution of the first three metals&#xD;&#xA;spoiling the final gilding. In the case of lead, which is&#xD;&#xA;concentrated as globules on the surface rather than in&#xD;&#xA;solution in the copper, melting occurs at a temperature below the boiling point of mercury. For these reasons gilding was confined to low tin bronzes&#xD;&#xA;that were lead free or pure copper.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The entire process is fraught with the potential for mercury poisoning,&#xD;&#xA;exposure being a virtual certainty during both the&#xD;&#xA;refining of mercury and the final stage gilding.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[*Possible toxic metal exposure of prehistoric bronze&#xD;&#xA;workers by M Harper p656 (the pdf is down-loadable)*&lt;/sub&gt;][15]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Civilization before Greece and Rome. H. W. F. Saggs &lt;/sub&gt;][16] (I was unable to procure a free down-loadable for everyone to read)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282647306_Smiths_and_Smithing_in_Bronze_Age_'Terramare'&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_toxicity&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_toxicity#Arsenic_poisoning&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dermatitis&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperkeratosis&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.clinicaladvisor.com/home/dermatology/arsenic-toxicity-arsenicism-arsenicosis-arsenical-keratoses-arsenical-pigmentation-mees-lines/&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_cancer&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peripheral_neuropathy&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Smithing_gods&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hephaestus&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_the_Smith&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilmarinen&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalgam_(chemistry)&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1007896/pdf/brjindmed00162-0004.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300050318/civilization-greece-and-rome" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21078" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6368" RevisionGUID="42214802-3984-4a15-959a-99c47b13158d" CreationDate="2020-05-14T21:48:01.993" UserId="6920" Text="It was fashionable.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Being connected with Troy was considered prestigious.  Hence Virgil claimed that Aeneas had escaped the fall of Troy to go to Rome and become an ancestor of Romulus.  An unknown author claimed that a descendant of Aeneas, Brutus, had become the first king of Britain and given it its name.  Snorri was working within that tradition." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21079" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6369" RevisionGUID="9977a525-d88f-44dc-a290-dcd51806e53f" CreationDate="2020-05-15T22:19:28.393" UserId="6940" Text="In ancient Greece they did have some specific dog breeds. There is the laconian dog breed. They were swift and often used for hunting. Then there is the molossian dog, which is very similar in appearance to bull dogs, as cerberus is commonly portrayed. These dogs are big and buff and make good guard dogs, so they might be a good candidate for guardian of the underworld. Both were used for hunting and guarding, so take your pick. There were likely others, but these are the ones I was able to find. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21080" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6370" RevisionGUID="fbe4c438-352a-4b69-bf74-15e0c0d1e4f4" CreationDate="2020-05-16T07:23:40.957" UserId="6925" Text="I'm doing research and am fascinated by Inuit mythology. I am looking for stories about the Torngarsuk, but am having a hard time finding anything that isn't general Wikipedia summaries. I'm trying to get a better standing of how it moves and interacts with the world for a story I'm writing. Are there any resources you might recommend? I really want to get this accurate. Thanks in advance!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21081" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6370" RevisionGUID="fbe4c438-352a-4b69-bf74-15e0c0d1e4f4" CreationDate="2020-05-16T07:23:40.957" UserId="6925" Text="Looking for stories on the Torngarsuk (Inuit mythology)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21082" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6370" RevisionGUID="fbe4c438-352a-4b69-bf74-15e0c0d1e4f4" CreationDate="2020-05-16T07:23:40.957" UserId="6925" Text="|mythical-creatures|inuit|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21083" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6369" RevisionGUID="10f51d30-b515-41af-b3cf-2f4f897b08c3" CreationDate="2020-05-16T14:48:07.800" UserId="5726" Comment="capital letters and link" Text="In ancient Greece they did have some specific dog breeds. There is the Laconian dog breed. They were swift and often used for hunting. Then there is the [Molossian dog][1], which is very similar in appearance to bull dogs, as Cerberus is commonly portrayed. These dogs are big and buff and make good guard dogs, so they might be a good candidate for guardian of the underworld. Both were used for hunting and guarding, so take your pick. There were likely others, but these are the ones I was able to find. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molossus_(dog)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21084" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5872" RevisionGUID="a5b7b8ff-75ab-44d1-b5cd-524293a15de8" CreationDate="2020-05-16T16:08:38.057" UserId="5726" Comment="added 83 characters in body" Text="For this answer to work you will need the entire story of Job and his struggles, which is why I have included all of [Job 1][1]. I like it because it is the first poetic book in the Old Testament of the Christian Bible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Basically God and Satan had a bet, as told in the story this man got everything in life he needed/wanted. God was bragging about his servant Job to Satan. Satan told God that if Job where to be unhappy and have everything taken away from him he would lose faith in God. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To prove a point God told Satan to take everything away from Job but Satan was not allowed to hurt Job. In the end of the story Satan is proven wrong as Job still retains his faith in God and said: The lord has given,&#xD;&#xA;and the lord has taken. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However although by proxy God is indirectly responsible for the deaths of shepherds and their flock for proving a point to Satan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While this messenger was still speaking, another came and announced, “A lightning storm struck and incinerated the flock and the servants while they were eating. I alone escaped to tell you!” &lt;sub&gt;Job 1:16&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Job’s Faithfulness&#xD;&#xA;----------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There once was a man in the land of Uz named Job. The man was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; blameless as well as upright. He feared God and kept away from evil. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Seven sons and three daughters had been born to him. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; His livestock included 7,000 sheep, 3,000 camels, 500 teams of oxen,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 500 female donkeys, and many servants. Indeed, the man’s stature&#xD;&#xA;&gt; greatly exceeded that of many people who lived in the East. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; His sons used to travel to each other’s houses in turn on a regular&#xD;&#xA;&gt; schedule and hold festivals, inviting their three sisters to celebrate&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with them.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; When their time of feasting had concluded, Job would rise early in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the morning to send for them and consecrate them to God. He would&#xD;&#xA;&gt; offer a burnt offering for each one, because Job thought, “Perhaps my&#xD;&#xA;&gt; children sinned by cursing God in their hearts.” Job did this time and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; again. &lt;sub&gt;Job 1&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Satan’s First Attack on Job&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  One day, divine beings presented themselves to the LORD, and Satan&#xD;&#xA;&gt; accompanied them.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  The LORD asked Satan, “Where have you come from?” In response,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Satan answered the LORD, “From wandering all over the earth and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; walking back and forth throughout it.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then the LORD asked Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job?&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There is no one like him on earth. The man is blameless as well as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; upright. He fears God and keeps away from evil.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; But in response, Satan asked the LORD, “Does Job fear God for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; nothing? &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Haven’t you surrounded him with a fence on all sides, around his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; house, and around all that he owns? You have blessed everything he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; puts his hands on and you have increased his livestock in the land.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  However, stretch out your hand and strike everything he owns, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he will curse you to your face.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then the LORD told Satan, “Very well then, everything he owns is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; under your control, only you may not extend your hand against him.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So Satan left the LORD’s presence.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Some time later, when his children were celebrating in their oldest&#xD;&#xA;&gt; brother’s house, a messenger approached Job and said, “The oxen&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were plowing and the female donkeys were grazing nearby when the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sabeans attacked, captured the servants, and killed them with swords.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I alone escaped to tell you!”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **While this messenger was still speaking, another came and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; announced, “A lightning storm struck and incinerated the flock and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; servants while they were eating. I alone escaped to tell you!”**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; While this messenger was still speaking, another came and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; announced, “The Chaldeans formed three companies, raided the camels,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; captured the servants, and killed them with swords. Only I alone&#xD;&#xA;&gt; escaped to tell you.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; While this messenger was still speaking, another came and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; announced, “Your children were celebrating in their oldest brother’s&#xD;&#xA;&gt; house.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; when a strong wind came straight out of the wilderness and struck&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the four corners of the house. It collapsed on the young people, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they died. I alone escaped to tell you!”  &lt;sub&gt;[International Standard Version Job 1][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://biblehub.com/isv/job/1.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21085" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5857" RevisionGUID="88238056-1148-430f-b82e-16809438afb9" CreationDate="2020-05-17T01:03:20.327" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="21086" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3185" RevisionGUID="2218c8d0-c584-4c50-8d03-132de99459e4" CreationDate="2020-05-17T02:03:20.317" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="21088" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6316" RevisionGUID="0e524499-f821-4a4e-bc52-1303e91637b1" CreationDate="2020-05-19T17:06:25.547" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="21089" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6371" RevisionGUID="b6bd66e2-2f55-4cd7-b9f1-d12e2c96c1e3" CreationDate="2020-05-20T07:13:39.557" UserId="6900" Text="I think Yggdrasil is the Trojan horse&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Norse_cosmology.svg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21090" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6366" RevisionGUID="1f94eb8a-06b9-4fbe-ae9d-899398489ead" CreationDate="2020-05-20T16:23:42.007" UserId="5726" Comment="added 148 characters in body" Text="In the Prologue to the Prose Edda, he seems to develop a genealogy of the Norse Gods being descendants of the Trojans. Starting with the [Trojan king Priam][1], he develops connections, like for example Thor being son of the Ethiopian king [Memnon][2] and Tróán (the daughter of Priam). Why did he do this in the prologue, what was its purpose?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priam&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memnon_(mythology)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21092" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6371" RevisionGUID="c4b07508-c527-453f-a23c-ce5574c4893f" CreationDate="2020-05-20T23:22:33.510" UserId="6900" Comment="added 17 characters in body" Text="I think Yggdrasil (terrible horse) is the Trojan horse&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Norse_cosmology.svg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21093" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6371" RevisionGUID="ea580a30-03e3-4edd-8df6-1e027b0b7560" CreationDate="2020-05-21T01:33:42.067" UserId="6900" Comment="added 87 characters in body" Text="I think the tree Yggdrasil (terrible horse) is the Trojan horse (wooden horse). Perhaps this is whatSnorri saw that caused him to make the connection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Norse_cosmology.svg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;terrible (adj.)&#xD;&#xA;late 14c., &quot;causing terror, awe, or dread; frightful,&quot; from Old French terrible (12c.), from Latin terribilis &quot;frightful,&quot; from terrere &quot;fill with fear,&quot; from PIE root *tros- &quot;to make afraid&quot; &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21094" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6371" RevisionGUID="29cb1658-25d9-4678-9941-f8354b24b397" CreationDate="2020-05-21T01:39:51.813" UserId="6900" Comment="added 53 characters in body" Text="I think the tree Yggdrasil (terrible horse) is the Trojan horse (wooden horse). Perhaps this is what Snorri saw that caused him to make the connection to Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Norse_cosmology.svg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;terrible (adj.)&#xD;&#xA;late 14c., &quot;causing terror, awe, or dread; frightful,&quot; from Old French terrible (12c.), from Latin terribilis &quot;frightful,&quot; from terrere &quot;fill with fear,&quot; from PIE root *tros- &quot;to make afraid&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Greek mythology, Tros  was the founder of Troy&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21095" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6371" RevisionGUID="8088ea4f-fe87-4c14-bafa-0750c1c0b38f" CreationDate="2020-05-21T02:17:52.230" UserId="6900" Comment="deleted 5 characters in body" Text="I think the tree Ygg-drasil (terrible-horse) is the (wooden)  Trojan horse. Perhaps this is what Snorri saw that caused him to make the connection to Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Norse_cosmology.svg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;terrible (adj.)&#xD;&#xA;late 14c., &quot;causing terror, awe, or dread; frightful,&quot; from Old French terrible (12c.), from Latin terribilis &quot;frightful,&quot; from terrere &quot;fill with fear,&quot; from PIE root *tros- &quot;to make afraid&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Greek mythology, Tros  was the founder of Troy&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21096" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6371" RevisionGUID="e1666814-5958-404a-82f0-15a299a7d108" CreationDate="2020-05-21T02:30:50.977" UserId="6900" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="I think the tree Ygg-drasil (terrible-horse) is the (wooden)  Trojan horse. Perhaps this is what Snorri saw that caused him to make the connection to Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Norse_cosmology.svg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;terrible (adj.)&#xD;&#xA;late 14c., &quot;causing terror, awe, or dread; frightful,&quot; from Old French terrible (12c.), from Latin terribilis &quot;frightful,&quot; from terrere &quot;fill with fear,&quot; from PIE root ***tros-** &quot;to make afraid&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Greek mythology, Tros  was the founder of Troy&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21097" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5239" RevisionGUID="4382f9f8-ab0b-473a-be9e-61c15d01962d" CreationDate="2020-05-21T14:53:12.383" UserDisplayName="user5459" Comment="deleted 114 characters in body" Text="I remember back when I was young that I saw an episode of Smurfs featuring a castle that disappears and reappears each few centuries and when, more recently, I thought about the whole concept of something disappearing and reappearing like this I became somewhat interested in stories with it. So are there any such stories (you can also include movies or tv series that involve such disappearances but it's optional) and where can I find them?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;EDIT (In order to clarify some things): By disappearance I mean vanishing into thin air in such a way that something no longer is anywhere in this world (not even behind fog/mist, under water or hidden in general). It's seemingly non-existent or in some kind of &quot;Nothingness&quot; area." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21098" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5443" RevisionGUID="9050e2fa-f854-465b-897b-30feb9625469" CreationDate="2020-05-21T15:13:41.970" UserDisplayName="user5459" Comment="Better clarification" Text="Are there myths that feature such beings?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My answer to a question by a commenter: The question says no gods. Supernatural beings that aren't gods and deities that aren't gods (if this possibility exists) are ok to talk about." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21102" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="312" RevisionGUID="e0beb5de-8993-48ee-aea7-d7601976df7c" CreationDate="2020-05-23T15:55:27.500" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="21103" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6373" RevisionGUID="5728ecf6-b0e7-42ff-9f02-fa05e27c9189" CreationDate="2020-05-23T16:45:08.917" UserId="5710" Text="It was made to explain where did his non-christian ancestors' belief came from. He wants to make sense of the reason why they didn't follow christian beliefs. Snorri also links old classic names to norse names through a forced folk etymology and says that they were men from Asia (hence the name *æsir* (singular *ás*)) that were so powerful that were mistaken as gods as time passed." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21104" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6373" RevisionGUID="78e0b44a-5e1d-4acf-9911-2da09742bfad" CreationDate="2020-05-24T01:27:48.513" UserId="5710" Comment="added 49 characters in body" Text="Short answer: he wants to explain everything.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was made to explain where did his non-christian ancestors' belief came from. He wants to make sense of the reason why they didn't follow christian beliefs. Snorri also links old classic names to norse names through a forced folk etymology and says that they were men from Asia (hence the name *æsir* (singular *ás*)) that were so powerful that were mistaken as gods as time passed." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21105" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6371" RevisionGUID="d94a1070-2029-4419-b3d1-fdc43e94a505" CreationDate="2020-05-25T06:35:29.013" UserId="6900" Comment="added 16 characters in body" Text="I think the tree Ygg-drasil (**terrible**-horse) is the (wooden)  **Trojan** horse. Perhaps this is what Snorri saw that caused him to make the connection to Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Norse_cosmology.svg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**terrible** (adj.)&#xD;&#xA;late 14c., &quot;causing terror, awe, or dread; frightful,&quot; from Old French terrible (12c.), from Latin terribilis &quot;frightful,&quot; from terrere &quot;fill with fear,&quot; from PIE root ***tros-** &quot;to make afraid&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Greek mythology, **Tros**  was the founder of Troy&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21106" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5452" RevisionGUID="a53e49b2-4791-444c-8032-bf20bb09ef9e" CreationDate="2020-05-25T11:43:48.507" UserId="5726" Comment="capitalization " Text="I know one for certain, the pre-adamite Jinn in Islamic mythology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A Jinn is an invisible entity, created by God out of a &quot;mixture of fire&quot; or &quot;smokeless fire&quot;, who roamed the earth **before** Adam.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; The community of the Jinn race were like those of humans, but then corruption and injustice among them increased and all warnings sent by God were ignored. Consequently, God sent his angels to battle the infidel Jinn. Just a few survived, and were ousted to far islands or to the mountains. With the revelation of Islam, the Jinn were given a new chance to access salvation. But because of their **prior creation**, the Jinn would attribute themselves to a superiority over humans and envy them for their place and rank on Earth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[source: The Qur'an and Its Biblical Subtext p.41][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.nl/books?id=dKaLAgAAQBAJ&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;hl=nl&amp;source=gbs_ge_summary_r&amp;cad=0#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21107" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6374" RevisionGUID="ef4897e6-1995-4416-98aa-fc6d1b9671a8" CreationDate="2020-05-25T12:26:32.970" UserId="6968" Text="The Horse symbolises understanding or more precisely wisdom (Gnosis). Helicon (helix) symbolises as its name suggests a serpent also related to wisdom of a divine nature. Pegasus the winged horse symbolises a higher or divine wisdom, Hippocrene the spring of wisdom. The tree muses who reside on Mt Helicon were worshipped as Serpent Goddesses as was Medusa in Libya.The site was the centre of an ancient form of serpent worship before the rise of the Greek pantheon. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21108" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6375" RevisionGUID="eccee831-8ef2-4e23-aa74-b6c3a77a09f0" CreationDate="2020-05-25T16:46:00.020" UserId="6969" Text="According to [this](https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/348379/proper-se-site-to-ask-about-the-flying-spaghetti-monster?noredirect=1#comment1165806_348379) question i like to know, about this topic:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When i was reading the [Flying Spaghetti Monster][1] and this question came in my mind:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Maybe in the middle east this kind of action happen before, do you know any similar action to the religion in this area of earth?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If yes, What would be the projection of the spaghetti religion elements on it? ( cor example pirates on it or ...?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And what would be the evolution of this similar actions during the time?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21109" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6375" RevisionGUID="eccee831-8ef2-4e23-aa74-b6c3a77a09f0" CreationDate="2020-05-25T16:46:00.020" UserId="6969" Text="Historical movement like Flying Spaghetti Monster in the middles east" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21110" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6375" RevisionGUID="eccee831-8ef2-4e23-aa74-b6c3a77a09f0" CreationDate="2020-05-25T16:46:00.020" UserId="6969" Text="|god-items|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21111" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6376" RevisionGUID="2b2f8a15-c106-4cb1-a913-9b5ef8cb522c" CreationDate="2020-05-26T02:37:56.863" UserId="6970" Text="How about Jason, who was served his own sons baked in a pie by Medea?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21112" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6375" RevisionGUID="59afaa23-5872-4272-911d-145889e51066" CreationDate="2020-05-26T05:44:52.117" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 42 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="According to [this](https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/348379/proper-se-site-to-ask-about-the-flying-spaghetti-monster?noredirect=1#comment1165806_348379) question i like to know, about this topic:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When i was reading about the [Flying Spaghetti Monster][1] and this question came in my mind: Has something similar appeared in the middle east before?  this kind of action happen before, do you know any similar action to the religion in this area of earth?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If yes, what elements of the flying spaghetti monster does it share?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How has it changed since its inception?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21113" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="6375" RevisionGUID="59afaa23-5872-4272-911d-145889e51066" CreationDate="2020-05-26T05:44:52.117" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 42 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Has there been anything like the Flying Spaghetti Monster originating in the Middles East?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21114" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="6375" RevisionGUID="59afaa23-5872-4272-911d-145889e51066" CreationDate="2020-05-26T05:44:52.117" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 42 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|middle-east|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21115" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="6376" RevisionGUID="9a8fad28-7ceb-490f-ba9d-e3f1149b133d" CreationDate="2020-05-26T05:46:21.287" UserId="108" Comment="101" />
  <row Id="21116" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6377" RevisionGUID="af608198-27bc-4219-86f0-5ba3e73e15d8" CreationDate="2020-05-26T08:47:35.897" UserId="6972" Text="Many mythologies mention some form of &quot;giants&quot;. Those giants may or may not be described as greater in height, but are always described as greater in strength and are portraied as violent. Examples are the Greek &quot;gigantes&quot; or the Biblical &quot;Nephilim&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Has there ever been any scientific study, on whether those myths could hint to contact of ancient, yet anatomically modern human, people with another species of the genus Homo? Could it be that other species of Homo have had a bigger physiognomy (e.g. as described for the Homo ergaster)? Is there a theory, that over the centuries, contacts with such a species in ancient times could lead to the myths we read today?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21117" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6377" RevisionGUID="af608198-27bc-4219-86f0-5ba3e73e15d8" CreationDate="2020-05-26T08:47:35.897" UserId="6972" Text="Could ancient myths of “giants” hint to contact with other species of homini?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21118" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6377" RevisionGUID="af608198-27bc-4219-86f0-5ba3e73e15d8" CreationDate="2020-05-26T08:47:35.897" UserId="6972" Text="|myth-identification|comparative|mythohistory|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21119" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6378" RevisionGUID="56aedff8-3b4b-459c-85e8-d37cf04f2715" CreationDate="2020-05-26T09:33:09.760" UserId="5511" Text="No. The FSM started as an initiative to expose the unfair tax exemption of religious organizations in the US, which has allowed churches to turn into tax-free corporations with huge stadia, private jets, etc. The creation and growth of the FSM was possible because of the US First Amandement, which guarantees freedom of/from religion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The situation in the Middle East is quite different. Most countries are either officially Islamic theocracies, others are either monarchies or dictatorships aligned with Islamic law. Apostasy is still illegal is all Middle-Eastern Islamic countries (in some it even carries the death penalty):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore, an initiative like FSM cannot even start in these countries as its very creation would be considered illegal. For this reason, the secular movements in these countries are restricted in the ways they can try to bring about a separation of religion and state. They either rely strongly on social media or need to act individually or in small groups, risking legal and mob persecution. The best known example is the fatwa on Salman Rushdie.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/WAf8J.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21120" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6379" RevisionGUID="4f1c7717-65d0-4050-800e-473f54a2ac33" CreationDate="2020-05-26T10:03:57.397" UserId="5511" Text="Unlikely. The last hominid species that went extinct is the Neanderthal around 30.000 BCE. It's very improbable oral tradition would have kept this relation intact in the stories for 30 millennia. [Anthropological studies of oral traditions][1] have illustrated the original content of such stories is very quickly distorted beyond recognition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.jstor.org/stable/2694058?read-now=1&amp;refreqid=excelsior:717e9651a16071a94abc429426d04f21&amp;seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21121" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3194" RevisionGUID="a2476a65-408c-421d-9416-94eebd33326e" CreationDate="2020-05-26T19:02:45.323" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="21124" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6381" RevisionGUID="0a913a13-c812-47f0-9ca4-a2d569db8c32" CreationDate="2020-05-29T01:56:11.937" UserId="4152" Text="**Possible:**&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;There are some very old oral traditions circulating even the largely demythologised West. We also know that, for example, Australian oral tradition recounts a number of extremely ancient and nevertheless historical events.  An example is the formation of certain volcanoes that occurred more than [35,000 years ago][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Other examples][2], from Australia and America.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think it is very likely that at least some, and most likely only the most ancient of European folklore about Trolls and the like, is strong evidence for sapiens's recollection of real neanderthals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/02/aboriginal-tale-ancient-volcano-oldest-story-ever-told&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.sapiens.org/language/oral-tradition/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21125" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6382" RevisionGUID="1d0eafd8-6e5c-424a-afa6-349325a1feb9" CreationDate="2020-05-30T03:54:27.283" UserId="399" Text="Tornarsuk was the &quot;ruler of the torneit or guardian spirits&quot; [1], but cited as &quot;when something goes wrong or when something interferes with the best-laid plans, it is often attibuted to the evil spirit Tornarsuk&quot; [2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He is represented in several ways: as a bear, a creature with the size of a finger and sometimes as an invisible being. Some sources, however, cite him as a sea monster, a huge white bear, or even that his body is covered with eyes [3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found variations of his name as: Tornarsuk, Tornaq and Tungrangayak.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I was able to find two books that had more complete stories. They weren't of the god itself, but of events related to him.&#xD;&#xA;The texts are long, so I will only put the books references here, so you can search by them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Tales and traditions of the Eskimo* [4]: starting on page 58, the author explores how women become angakut (I understood this as shamans). They receive a guardian spirit from Tornarsuk, which they can summon in times of need.&#xD;&#xA;There are more mentions of him in the book, so a more thorough reading might be interesting.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*A Winter's Tale* [5]: This book has a short story involving the entity, and I found it particularly interesting.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It tells the story of Tuavituk, who was an Angakok, and claimed to be able to communicate with Torngak, the Great Spirit who ruled their fortunes. But one day, Tuavituk announced to the Eskimos that something displeased Torngak, and to punish them, he caused an storm.  So, the ice and the food were carried away. The Eskimos would perish of starvation, unless Torngak were appeased. The story goes on. Starts on page 104.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**References:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1] SKYES, Edgerton; KENDALL, Alan. Who's Who in Non-Classical Mythology. N. I: Routledge, 1993.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[2] COUNTER, S. Allen. North Pole Legacy: the search for the arctic offspring of robert peary and matthew henson. N. I: Simon And Schuster, 2018.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[3] COULTER, Charles Russell; TURNER, Patricia. Encyclopedia of Ancient Deities. Chicago: Routledge, 2013.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[4] RINK, Hinrich. Tales and Traditions of the Eskimo. New York: Cambridge University Press, 2014.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[5] WALLACE, Dillon. A Winter ́s Tale. 3. ed. New York: Outlook Verlag, 2018." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21126" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6383" RevisionGUID="9f2081b1-ec20-4601-8bfd-454e05c25e59" CreationDate="2020-05-30T18:02:06.593" UserId="6920" Text="The term was explained by ancient writers as &quot;song for [the prize of] a goat&quot; or &quot;song for [the sacrifice of] a goat&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Walter Burkert observed in &lt;I&gt;Savage Energies: Lessons of Myth and Ritual in Ancient Greece&lt;/I&gt; that these were hard to disentangle, because the song competition would mean competing for the honor of being given the goat that would be offered as the sacrifice to Dionysus, and thus for the honor of actually giving the sacrifice.  He also pointed out that the &quot;goat skin&quot; interpretation does not work grammatically, the terms are inflected incorrectly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Originally the song would be a choral leader and the chorus.  The additional of a second leader and then a third allowed true drama.  And it was drama rather than tragedy in the modern sense.  Aristotle in &lt;I&gt;Poetics&lt;/I&gt; described the best plot for a tragedy as one in which the main character was about to do something that, unbeknownst to him, was particularly dreadful, to learn in time that was particularly dreadful, and so to not do it -- that is, to have a happy ending." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21129" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6385" RevisionGUID="9d9ca02c-f5f6-49cd-a1be-d4061212352c" CreationDate="2020-06-01T18:57:37.127" UserId="6984" Text="In a song by Eluveitie, called &quot;Black Water Dawn&quot;, we hear about a voyage across the sea, a journey to the Otherworld. At the end of the song the place Tír Jovincon is mentioned. The question is what exactly is this place?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The song describes it just vaguely as a place with &quot;green hills&quot;, a &quot;silver stream&quot; and a &quot;newborn sky&quot;. The last song lines are: &quot;Can you not see the sun of the dawn / You are so near Tír Jovincon&quot;." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21130" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6385" RevisionGUID="9d9ca02c-f5f6-49cd-a1be-d4061212352c" CreationDate="2020-06-01T18:57:37.127" UserId="6984" Text="What is Tír Jovincon in Celtic Mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21131" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6385" RevisionGUID="9d9ca02c-f5f6-49cd-a1be-d4061212352c" CreationDate="2020-06-01T18:57:37.127" UserId="6984" Text="|celtic|afterlife|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21132" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6386" RevisionGUID="0908e6d7-773e-4b68-b240-0c873f8443ea" CreationDate="2020-06-02T05:25:56.633" UserId="5771" Text="The Rape of Persephone as it was performed 24 000 years ago.  Read from Right to Left&#xD;&#xA;[![The Rape of Persephone from the End Chamber at Grotte Chauvet][1]][1]  Having translated the entire rock art gallery of Chauvet and Lascaux I feel like 'behest' might be too exuberant.  I read it more like, yeah sure, why not?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus, Hades, and Poseidon rolled dice for their share of the universe after defeating the Titans.  Hades got the short roll and ended up with the Underworld.  Later he feels like he got screwed.  He was, after all, the one who took out Cronus.  He sees Persephone and *Hubba Hubba* that would make life in the Underworld a little brighter! Zeus agrees so he will stop complaining.  That's my read, anyway.  Evelyn-White's Theogony is my go to because he seems to catch the nuance and the details are unnervingly correct as though Hesiod wrote it from this panel.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;obviously it's copyrighted &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/3m1ks.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21133" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6386" RevisionGUID="a06bf3ea-bd9f-465b-9cc9-ae06cdd257ae" CreationDate="2020-06-02T05:44:48.440" UserId="5771" Comment="added 267 characters in body" Text="The Rape of Persephone as it was performed 24 000 years ago in Grotte Chauvet in five acts.  This is a single panel at the furthest darkest end of the cave.   It's read Right to Left&#xD;&#xA;[![The Rape of Persephone from the End Chamber at Grotte Chauvet][1]][1]  I feel like 'behest' might be too exuberant.  I read it more like, yeah sure, why not?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus, Hades, and Poseidon rolled dice for their share of the universe after defeating the Titans.  Hades got the short roll and ended up with the Underworld.  Later he feels like he got screwed.  He was, after all, the one who took out Cronus.  He sees Persephone and *Hubba Hubba* that would make life in the Underworld a little brighter! Zeus agrees so he will stop complaining.  That's my read, anyway.  Evelyn-White's Theogony is my go to because he seems to catch the nuance and the details are unnervingly spot-on as though Hesiod wrote it from this panel or Evelyn-White added it in later. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[More][2]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/3m1ks.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&amp;rct=j&amp;q=&amp;esrc=s&amp;source=web&amp;cd=&amp;cad=rja&amp;uact=8&amp;ved=2ahUKEwjY-qOQtuLpAhWEFzQIHcrQDDcQFjACegQIERAB&amp;url=https%3A%2F%2Fhcommons.org%2Fmembers%2Fglen216%2F&amp;usg=AOvVaw2IWAysWRF2mWdRFxMe25VG" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21134" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6387" RevisionGUID="cd725f8e-92ed-47c9-85e3-6eb240d6de85" CreationDate="2020-06-02T08:47:36.743" UserId="5511" Text="*Tìr* in Gaelic means &quot;land&quot;. *Jovincon* doesn't appear in the Gaelic dictionary. The Gaelic names for the Otherworld are either *Tír na nÓg* (Land of the Young) or *Tír na hÓige* (Land of Youth). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The otherworld is a place where one goes after death in Celtic mythology. They usually cross the sea to get to the other side. So, dying is actually a dangerous journey among the deathly waves covering the cursed depths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story of Oisin&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Long ago, people in Ireland believed that there was a beautiful land&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in the western sea called Tír na nÓg - The land of the young. It was a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; place where the trees were always green, the flowers were always in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bloom and men and women never grew old. This is the story of how&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Oisín, the son of Fionn MacCumhail leader of the Fianna, came to go to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tír na n-óg.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; One morning the Fianna were hunting deer on the shores of Lough Leane&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in County Kerry. As they rested on a hilltop, a beautiful girl came&#xD;&#xA;&gt; riding towards them on a snow white horse. She was dressed like a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; princess and her long golden hair hung to her waist.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; As she drew near, Fionn called out “What is your name and what land&#xD;&#xA;&gt; have you come from?” – “I am Niamh of the Golden Hair and my father is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; King of Tír na nÓg. I have heard of a great warrior named Oisín. I&#xD;&#xA;&gt; have to come to find him and ask him to return with me to the Land of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Young.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Fionn was sad, for he feared that if Oisín went with Niamh, he would&#xD;&#xA;&gt; never see him again. But it was too late, Oisín was already in love&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with the princess. He accepted Niamh’s invitation and waving goodbye&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to Fionn and his friends, he jumped onto the horse behind Niamh. Away&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they galloped into the morning mist.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Over the land and the sea the fairy horse ran, moving as swiftly as a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shadow. At last they reached the golden shores of Tír na nÓg. The king&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and queen welcomed Oisín and held a great feast in his honour. It was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a magical land. Oisín hunted and feasted and at night he told stories&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Fionn and the Fianna and of their lives in Ireland. Oisín had never&#xD;&#xA;&gt; felt as happy as he did with Niamh and before long they were married.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Oisín lived in Tír na nÓg for three hundred years, but being so happy,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; it only seemed like three. Then a great longing came on him to go back&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to Ireland. Niamh did not want him to go but at last she agreed and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gave him the white horse. Niamh warned him “set foot, even once, on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the soil of Ireland and you will never return to Tír na nÓg.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; When Oisín reached Ireland he found that everything had changed. There&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was no trace of his father or the fianna. As he passed through Gleann&#xD;&#xA;&gt; na Smol, the valley of the thrushes, he saw a group of men trying to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; move a large stone. “I will help you” he said. The mighty Oisín&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stooped down in his saddle, and with one hand, lifted the stone. But&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as he did so, the saddle strap broke and he tumble to the ground.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Immediately the fairy horse galloped away and a great change came over&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Oisín. In the blink of an eye the great hero of the Fianna became a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; withered old man.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21135" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6388" RevisionGUID="99b438b8-0fa8-4c48-b042-2cf1ce51e618" CreationDate="2020-06-03T00:24:50.287" UserId="6925" Text="I'm trying to find the translation to this Inuit story 'Mother of the Dog Children,' viewable here -- http://www.inuitmyths.com/dogmother.htm&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any resources that may help translate this text are helpful! Or even if there's another source with this text at all.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21136" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6388" RevisionGUID="99b438b8-0fa8-4c48-b042-2cf1ce51e618" CreationDate="2020-06-03T00:24:50.287" UserId="6925" Text="Translation of the Inuit Story 'Mother of the Dog Children'" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21137" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6388" RevisionGUID="99b438b8-0fa8-4c48-b042-2cf1ce51e618" CreationDate="2020-06-03T00:24:50.287" UserId="6925" Text="|inuit|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21138" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6389" RevisionGUID="6335d261-7344-43c2-8cc9-5b36df0f2505" CreationDate="2020-06-04T15:07:11.110" UserId="4068" Text="I'd suggest that this comes from an early understanding of consciousness as partaking in an element of the divine. Compare, say, with the divine spark in Greek myth. But of course we are also human. Hence early mythology had demi-gods and heroes that straddled both worlds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've always considered this interesting in the light of Christian theology, where Christ himself is understood as being a hypostasis of the human and the divine. It feels reminiscent of this early understanding of mythology. Of course, most Christians take this as a reality. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21139" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2653" RevisionGUID="5a874a6e-77ea-4911-aed3-aeb8e43c6c95" CreationDate="2020-06-04T16:20:28.737" UserId="6986" Comment="I corrected some spelling and added a few words" Text="As far as I know this heavily depends on whether you consider later additions to the mythology by Christian missionaries to be canon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The original idea was to describe the end of the worlds that hasn't happened, similar to the Christian Revelation. Otherwise they'd worship dead gods, there'd be no Valhalla, Jotuns, Valkyries, etc. which would basically screw up everything.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However missionaries used those exact thoughts to mix their original mythology with the Christian Bible to explain and introduce a continuity to convert them. Ragnarok already happened, but two people, a man and a woman survived hiding under Yggdrasil, named Adam and Eve." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21140" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2653" RevisionGUID="5a874a6e-77ea-4911-aed3-aeb8e43c6c95" CreationDate="2020-06-04T16:20:28.737" Comment="Proposed by 6986 approved by 2892, 5726 edit id of 1813" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21141" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6390" RevisionGUID="497350f5-f887-45c2-85d5-6d5e90126814" CreationDate="2020-06-04T18:18:01.740" UserId="6987" Text="I know Ares is the god of war and all but in most stories I've read He mostly acts more like a villain instead of a God. Why would anyone worship such a god? In stark contrast Mars was widely worshipped." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21142" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6390" RevisionGUID="497350f5-f887-45c2-85d5-6d5e90126814" CreationDate="2020-06-04T18:18:01.740" UserId="6987" Text="Was Ares a Hero or Villain?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21143" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6390" RevisionGUID="497350f5-f887-45c2-85d5-6d5e90126814" CreationDate="2020-06-04T18:18:01.740" UserId="6987" Text="|greek|ares|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21144" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6391" RevisionGUID="91504f89-6799-4873-8555-165cfaa53c10" CreationDate="2020-06-04T21:36:37.120" UserId="5225" Text="I've loved Orpheus' and Eurydice's myth for a couple of decades by now, but it never occurred to me to ask: what about her body?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any hint that people in the classical period would have considered it a problem that a soul whose body was likely burnt would come back to physical life? Is something about this ever mentioned in early accounts of the myth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21145" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6391" RevisionGUID="91504f89-6799-4873-8555-165cfaa53c10" CreationDate="2020-06-04T21:36:37.120" UserId="5225" Text="Eurydice's body" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21146" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6391" RevisionGUID="91504f89-6799-4873-8555-165cfaa53c10" CreationDate="2020-06-04T21:36:37.120" UserId="5225" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21147" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6392" RevisionGUID="40e19fc1-ad81-438d-b679-ed847129134e" CreationDate="2020-06-05T03:05:08.973" UserId="6920" Text="In the myth of Alcestis, she actually did come back to life, whether rescued by Heracles or sent back by Persephone, but no questions about her body are raised -- somehow, just being saved from Death made her corporeal again, in spite of already having a tomb.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Given that Eurydice didn't actually make it back, they probably would not have raised the question for her, either." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21148" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6393" RevisionGUID="fcad1ff0-c4b7-4878-9485-8cb049fe6e11" CreationDate="2020-06-05T03:10:17.743" UserId="6920" Text="Why would someone worship such a god?  So he didn't smite you for your insolence.  Who are you, a mere mortal, to presume to withhold due rites from a god?  Especially one whom you know is willing to do terrible things to you?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I will add that the Homeric Hymn to Ares shows a much more favorable view.  Also, you have such myths as that the Areopagus, which was said to be named from the way that the first trial there was Ares's for murder -- Poseidon prosecuted him for killing one of his sons -- and Ares was acquitted on the defense that the son had been trying rape his daughter at the time." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21149" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6394" RevisionGUID="1093b65b-b014-40c0-89da-ada99b7e0d97" CreationDate="2020-06-05T07:07:02.283" UserId="5511" Text="You can't categorize the Olympians with DC/Marvel labels. The Ancient Greeks didn't even think of their gods as we currently think of that concept. Greek gods were regarded much more like the deep, layered human characters of Bronte or Wolf. That's why virtually all Olympian myths are tragedies." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21154" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6395" RevisionGUID="d2627783-bf9b-4b3d-a67c-363ca54302ba" CreationDate="2020-06-06T08:15:08.077" UserId="5726" Text="It's always hard to prove a negative but I'm gonna try.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The bible is full of verses explicitly telling the reader that magic, sorcery, necromancy or divination is not allowed and should not be practiced by the faithful as well as urging them to do something about it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a site called **[openbible][1]**  in which you can search for specific keywords in the scriptures, these scriptures can then be read in order on biblegateway. I used this site to get about a 100 different mentions of wizardry, sorcery and witchcraft, and every single one denoting that it is sinful or should be reported, stopped or ignored.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Leviticus 19:31 ESV][2] &#xD;&#xA;&gt;“Do not turn to mediums or necromancers; do not seek them out, and so make yourselves unclean by them: I am the Lord your God.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; [Exodus 22:18 ESV][3] &#xD;&#xA;&gt;“You shall not permit a sorceress to live&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Deuteronomy 18:10-12 ESV][4] &#xD;&#xA;&gt;There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The good magic in the bible are called miracles and signs, this can do the same (or more) as magic but is purer since it comes from God him/herself. In Acts, Simon is a great magician and everyone in the city said “This man is the power of God that is called Great”.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After Simon himself is baptized he was amazed with the signs and miracles performed by Philip, showing that Simons power was less than that of God. &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;[Acts 8:9-13 ESV][5] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;But there was a man named Simon, who had previously practiced magic in the city and amazed the people of Samaria, saying that he himself was somebody great. They all paid attention to him, from the least to the greatest, saying, “This man is the power of God that is called Great.” And they paid attention to him because for a long time he had amazed them with his magic. But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. **And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Magic is seriously frowned upon in the bible and actively mentioned to be bad and a direct route to the lake of fire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; [Revelation 21:8 ESV][6] &#xD;&#xA;&gt;But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.openbible.info/topics/magic&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2019%3A31&amp;version=ESV&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2022%3A18&amp;version=ESV&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2018%3A10-12&amp;version=ESV&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%208%3A9-13&amp;version=ESV&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2021%3A8&amp;version=ESV" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21155" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6396" RevisionGUID="c1cbaefd-a55e-4fc4-98d9-8f689b5e0014" CreationDate="2020-06-06T21:33:29.680" UserId="6828" Text="This is more like a technical, geographical question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When we say Zephyrus is the west wind, do we mean _coming from_ the west or _going_ west?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which way would my boat go if Zephyrus blew into the sails?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(I thought here would be a better place to ask rather than a geography forum)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21156" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6396" RevisionGUID="c1cbaefd-a55e-4fc4-98d9-8f689b5e0014" CreationDate="2020-06-06T21:33:29.680" UserId="6828" Text="Which way blows Zephyrus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21157" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6396" RevisionGUID="c1cbaefd-a55e-4fc4-98d9-8f689b5e0014" CreationDate="2020-06-06T21:33:29.680" UserId="6828" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21158" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6397" RevisionGUID="040303af-617b-46b9-b361-0c081e7256ce" CreationDate="2020-06-06T22:59:29.977" UserId="6920" Text="From the west. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that Boreaus, the North Wind, brought cold winter air from the north." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21159" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6398" RevisionGUID="db8f4272-7a48-4715-a577-860baa4818af" CreationDate="2020-06-07T00:05:18.773" UserId="5937" Text="Ares, Greek god of war, being the epitome of the horrors of war, was accompanied by his children Deimos (dread), Phobos (fear) and Eris, not his daughter but the goddess of discord with several parentages disputed.  He wore a cape of the skin of men he had killed.  He was fickle promising to fight on one side one day and changing his mind the next.  He was also mindlessly boastful, cowardly,and a loud whiner when injured by Athena.  His appearance represents all the horrors of war and his shadow across the land is a portent of terror, pillage and death.  No hero here.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21162" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6400" RevisionGUID="d3df30cc-eb9f-4088-84e8-4539904a1c36" CreationDate="2020-06-07T18:09:48.900" UserId="6988" Text="[![TheSorceress-GeorgesMerle][1]][1] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This painting depicts a number of symbols from various cultures. It was shown at a Paris exhibition in 1883, and I suspect the painting is more imagination than an accurate depiction of any  sorceress. That said, the subject holds a staff with a symbol on top. The closest I have found is a &quot;Pagan symbol of Summer&quot; shown on [this site.][3] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][4]][4] [![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is that the symbol used in the painting? If so, why did the artist use a Pagan symbol, if he wanted to affect a non-European vibe?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/D5S3f.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/dcf20.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.ancient-symbols.com/pagan_symbols.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/1U9fQ.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21163" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6400" RevisionGUID="d3df30cc-eb9f-4088-84e8-4539904a1c36" CreationDate="2020-06-07T18:09:48.900" UserId="6988" Text="What symbol is on the staff of The Sorceress by Georges Merle?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21164" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6400" RevisionGUID="d3df30cc-eb9f-4088-84e8-4539904a1c36" CreationDate="2020-06-07T18:09:48.900" UserId="6988" Text="|iconography|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21166" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6400" RevisionGUID="0a8826ec-aabe-41bc-8d78-caef0ddc9dfa" CreationDate="2020-06-07T19:23:47.633" UserId="6988" Comment="clarifies site reference" Text="[![TheSorceress-GeorgesMerle][1]][1] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This painting depicts a number of symbols from various cultures. It was shown at a Paris exhibition in 1883, and I suspect the painting is more imagination than an accurate depiction of any  sorceress. That said, the subject holds a staff with a symbol on top. The closest I have found is a &quot;Pagan symbol of Summer&quot; shown on [this site,][3] which grouped it among other symbols that appear to be western European.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][4]][4] [![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is that the symbol used in the painting? If so, why did the artist use a Pagan symbol, if he wanted to affect a non-European vibe?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/D5S3f.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/dcf20.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.ancient-symbols.com/pagan_symbols.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/1U9fQ.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21167" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6402" RevisionGUID="8fc3ed22-e029-4536-96d4-be1a2e9578cd" CreationDate="2020-06-08T00:53:39.837" UserId="6988" Text="The text on that page seems to come from [this collection][1] of stories. The text is attributed to a Neil Christopher. The year referenced at the end of the text  (ᕘᐊᔅ, **1901**, ᒪᑉᐱᒐᑦ 163-165) also appears in the References page at the end of the collection. I believe the reference is to the [collected notes][2] on Inuits by George Comer, James S. Mutch, and E.J. Peck.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://nbes.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/kappianaqtut__inuktitut_.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://digitallibrary.amnh.org/handle/2246/1251" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21168" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6402" RevisionGUID="46744936-5511-424b-8908-b8d585ac4bd0" CreationDate="2020-06-08T01:10:44.997" UserId="6988" Comment="expands on the reference used" Text="The text on that page seems to come from [this collection][1] of stories. The text is attributed to a Neil Christopher. The year at the end of the text  (ᕘᐊᔅ, **1901**, ᒪᑉᐱᒐᑦ 163-165) also appears in the References page at the end of the collection. I believe the reference is to the [collected notes][2] on Inuits by George Comer, James S. Mutch, and E.J. Peck. On pages 165 and 327 (pages 167 and 329 of the PDF) there are two versions of the story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://nbes.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/kappianaqtut__inuktitut_.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://digitallibrary.amnh.org/handle/2246/1251" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21170" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6403" RevisionGUID="fae649fd-22fe-448b-8230-7d90ff43cd59" CreationDate="2020-06-08T02:17:07.510" UserId="2682" Text="Of what I have been able to find, none of the surviving ancient source material for these myths tells us when the suit for Helen at Sparta occurred in relation to the Epigoni's battle on Lake Glisas, nor when Diomedes got married to Aegialeia [Aegialia] in relation to either of these aforementioned events. And Wikipedia (per the article you have cited) supplies no sources for the claim that Diomedes was wed after fighting at Thebes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The best we would have available in the absence of such mentions is guesswork. I highly doubt the Wikipedia article is intentionally lining up a chronology between Diomedes' wedding on the one hand and the Epigoni's sacking of Thebes on the other hand. To me it reads like it's simply explaining the reasons for Diomedes' obligation to participate in the Trojan War rather than indicating that all of that paragraph's events necessarily take place after those narrated in the preceding one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice that the last sentence before the one you've quoted about Diomedes becoming a suitor of Helen is discussing the death of Diomedes' kinsman Thersites during the Trojan War, an event which undoubtedly takes place *after* the suit of Helen. Based on this it seems quite reasonable to me to understand the statement about Diomedes becoming a suitor as simply mentioning a prior event on his life which led to his involvement in the Trojan War.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;None of the surviving ancient mythography to which I refer, above, precludes the interpretation that: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The Epigoni fought at Thebes and conquered the city.&#xD;&#xA; - Shortly after that the famous Oath of Tyndareus was exacted from&#xD;&#xA;   the suitors of Helen. &#xD;&#xA; - And then, as we know, only one of the suitors, namely Menelaus,&#xD;&#xA;   won the prospective bride's hand in marriage, and everyone else&#xD;&#xA;   went off to seek brides elsewhere. Among these unsuccessful   &#xD;&#xA;   suitors was Diomedes, who then only at *this* point went on to marry Aegialeia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *The Greek Myths* (Penguin Books, 1960), Robert Graves describes (on p. 630) the suit of Helen taking place when Diomedes had arrived at Sparta &quot;fresh from his victory at Thebes&quot;. None of the ancient sources cited by Graves specifies such a chronology, so I suspect that Graves is simply deducing this based on certain variables, such as, perhaps, how young Diomedes is supposed to have been during the war at Thebes (around fourteen or fifteen years old), making it fairly implausible that he would have been suing for marriage earlier than that.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Carlos Parada's website the Greek Mythology Link (GML), there were indeed no commoners among Helen suitors. However, this does not mean that every single one of the suitors was necessarily the ruler of the domain from which he hailed. Several of them, as you say, were merely princes, and not especially the heirs-apparent to the thrones of their realms. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Clytius son of Eurytus was not the ruler of Oechalia at the time, his&#xD;&#xA;   father Eurytus was.&#xD;&#xA; - Telamon was still king of Salamis when his sons Ajax and Teucer each&#xD;&#xA;   went to Sparta to stake their claim upon Helen. Telamon continued to&#xD;&#xA;   rule even after the end of the Trojan War.&#xD;&#xA; - Among the suitors there were three Cretans: Idomeneus, Meriones and&#xD;&#xA;   Lycomedes. Only the first of these was the king of the Crete, and&#xD;&#xA;   Meriones was his underling.&#xD;&#xA; - Patroclus is listed among the suitors, and he may even have been an&#xD;&#xA;   exile (albeit one of royal lineage) at the time of the suit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apart from Diomedes, three other Epigoni are also listed among Helen's suitors, namely Sthenelus son of Capaneus, and the brothers Amphilochus and Alcmaeon. All three were Diomedes' relatives from Argos; and Amphilochus and Sthenelus are known to have become royal rulers in Argos alongside Diomedes only after the battle of Lake Glisas. Alcmaeon was never such a ruler anywhere, it seems. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All three of these Argives are known to have been married as well, or at least to have had children. (Sthenelus' son Cometes is notorious for having cuckolded Diomedes during the Trojan War.) Their stories as Epigoni suitors of Helen seem to be parallel to that of Diomedes: they were fairly young men (maybe even just boys) when they fought at Thebes; they won that war; went to Sparta each in a bid to become Helen's husband and failed at this; and then they found other brides and were married only a few years before shipping out to fight at Troy.   " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21171" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6404" RevisionGUID="05343107-19ad-4190-ac1b-2df8640fa4f2" CreationDate="2020-06-08T10:35:32.450" UserId="6994" Text="I am solving crossword and one of the clues says, &#xA;**Airs composed by priest in Hebrew perhaps**&#xA;&#xA;The answer to which is Israeli, as found on the Internet. &#xA;&#xA;Could someone please explain it to me, what does “Airs” mean in this context and why is the answer “Israeli”? Does this have a mythological base ? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21172" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6404" RevisionGUID="05343107-19ad-4190-ac1b-2df8640fa4f2" CreationDate="2020-06-08T10:35:32.450" UserId="6994" Text="Airs composed by priest in Hebrew perhaps?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21173" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6404" RevisionGUID="05343107-19ad-4190-ac1b-2df8640fa4f2" CreationDate="2020-06-08T10:35:32.450" UserId="6994" Text="|hebrew|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21174" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6405" RevisionGUID="0a73e16f-fb5e-45a9-b15f-e588f35641b2" CreationDate="2020-06-08T12:34:44.777" UserId="6920" Text="&quot;Airs&quot; is another word for &quot;tunes.&quot;  Sometimes, not often, used for a song with words.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why this ends up &quot;Israeli&quot; I do not know, but it is the only meaning I can see that applies to the clue." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21175" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6406" RevisionGUID="6da842ad-826c-414c-b754-fb690076cdff" CreationDate="2020-06-08T12:49:23.917" UserId="209" Text="&quot;Airs composed&quot; indicates an anagram of &quot;airs&quot;. &quot;By&quot; indicates concatenation. &quot;Priest&quot; refers to Eli (from the book of Samuel). That's the cryptic half of the clue, and it yields ISRA+ELI. And &quot;Israeli&quot; = &quot;in Hebrew perhaps&quot;." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21176" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6406" RevisionGUID="c76dded5-db1b-4b4c-a14d-53cf95c5110e" CreationDate="2020-06-08T13:35:43.107" UserId="209" Comment="added 74 characters in body" Text="&quot;Airs composed&quot; indicates an anagram of &quot;airs&quot;. &quot;By&quot; indicates concatenation. &quot;Priest&quot; refers to Eli (from the book of Samuel). That's [the cryptic half of the clue](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptic_crossword#How_cryptic_clues_work), and it yields ISRA+ELI. And &quot;Israeli&quot; = &quot;in Hebrew perhaps&quot;." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21177" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6403" RevisionGUID="0e9929cd-a6f5-4aae-be55-15cba659d338" CreationDate="2020-06-08T14:14:06.710" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar, improved formatting &amp; corrected some details" Text="Of what I have been able to find, none of the surviving ancient source material for these myths tells us when the suit for Helen at Sparta occurred in relation to the Epigoni's battle on Lake Glisas, nor when Diomedes got married to Aegialeia [Aegialia] in relation to either of these aforementioned events. And Wikipedia (per the article you are citing) supplies no sources for the claim that Diomedes was wed after fighting at Thebes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The best we would have available in the absence of such mentions is guesswork. I highly doubt the Wikipedia article is intentionally lining up a chronology between Diomedes' wedding on the one hand and the Epigoni's sacking of Thebes on the other hand. To me it reads like it's simply explaining the reasons for Diomedes' obligation to participate in the Trojan War rather than indicating that all of that paragraph's events necessarily take place after those narrated in the preceding one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice that the last sentence before the one you've quoted about Diomedes becoming a suitor of Helen is discussing the death of Diomedes' kinsman Thersites during the Trojan War, an event which undoubtedly takes place *after* the suit of Helen. Based on this it seems quite reasonable to me to understand the statement about Diomedes becoming a suitor as simply mentioning a prior event in his life which led to his involvement in the Trojan War.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;None of the surviving ancient mythography to which I refer, above, precludes the interpretation that: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The Epigoni fought at Thebes and conquered the city.&#xD;&#xA; - Shortly after that the famous Oath of Tyndareus was exacted from&#xD;&#xA;   the suitors of Helen. &#xD;&#xA; - And then, as we know, only one of the suitors, namely Menelaus,&#xD;&#xA;   won the prospective bride's hand in marriage, and everyone else&#xD;&#xA;   went off to seek wives elsewhere. Among these unsuccessful suitors was Diomedes, who then, only at *this* point, went on to marry Aegialeia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *The Greek Myths* (Penguin Books, 1960), Robert Graves describes (on p. 630) the suit of Helen taking place when Diomedes had arrived at Sparta &quot;fresh from his victory at Thebes&quot;. None of the ancient sources cited by Graves specifies such a sequence of events, so I suspect that Graves is simply deducing this based on certain variables, such as, perhaps, how young Diomedes is supposed to have been during the war at Thebes (around fourteen or fifteen years old), making it fairly implausible that he would have been suing for marriage earlier than that.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Carlos Parada's website the Greek Mythology Link (GML), there were indeed no commoners among Helen suitors. However, this does not mean that every single one of the suitors was necessarily the ruler of the domain from which he hailed. Several of them, as you say, were merely princes, and not especially the heirs-apparent to the thrones of their realms. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Clytius was not the ruler of Oechalia at the time, his father Eurytus was.&#xD;&#xA; - Telamon was still king of Salamis when his sons Ajax and Teucer each&#xD;&#xA;   went to Sparta to stake their claim upon Helen. Telamon continued to&#xD;&#xA;   rule even after the end of the Trojan War.&#xD;&#xA; - Among the suitors there were three Cretans: Idomeneus, Meriones and&#xD;&#xA;   Lycomedes. Only the first of these was the king of the Crete, and&#xD;&#xA;   Meriones was his underling.&#xD;&#xA; - Patroclus is listed among the suitors, and he may even have been an&#xD;&#xA;   exile (albeit one of royal lineage) at the time of the suit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apart from Diomedes, three other Epigoni are also listed among Helen's suitors, namely Sthenelus son of Capaneus, and the brothers Amphilochus and Alcmaeon. All three were Diomedes' relatives from Argos; and Amphilochus and Sthenelus are known to have become royal rulers in Argos alongside Diomedes only after the battle of Lake Glisas. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Alcmaeon was never such a ruler anywhere, it seems, but he is known to have been married. Sthenelus presumably was also married, as he had a son, Cometes, who is notorious for having cuckolded Diomedes during the Trojan War. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The stories of Sthenelus, Amphilochus and Alcmaeon as Epigoni suitors of Helen seem to be parallel to that of Diomedes: they were fairly young men (maybe even just boys) when they fought at Thebes; they won that war; went to Sparta each in a bid to become Helen's husband and failed at this; and then they found other brides elsewhere.   " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21178" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6407" RevisionGUID="8d3be7ae-2623-4d79-86ee-3b187a160e33" CreationDate="2020-06-09T02:51:30.783" UserId="6996" Text="I think that is the symbol of Isis. Here is a picture:&#xD;&#xA;https://www.nationalgeographic.com/content/dam/archaeologyandhistory/rights-exempt/history-magazine/2020/03-04/isis-goddess/isis-mural-temple-horemheb.ngsversion.1584648217707.adapt.1900.1.jpg&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21179" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6408" RevisionGUID="1e106b8e-5be0-458b-be00-3afddd153c0d" CreationDate="2020-06-09T07:50:15.820" UserId="5511" Text="In modern Wicca, this staff is called &quot;The Stang&quot;. In its simplest form, a forked staff, Witches use the Stang in various ways including representing the Horned One, aiding in spirit flight, and directing energy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/DG2A2.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21180" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6409" RevisionGUID="3e73bcb9-32d8-4e70-ac1e-8cd15ddab456" CreationDate="2020-06-10T15:46:54.133" UserId="399" Text="I found these definitions in the book [1] and in the paper [2]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Kratt:** a demon who stole and brought food, money and other wordly goods to its maker and owner in the form of a whirlwind or meteor-like tail of fire&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Pisuhänd:** tail of fire, treasure-bringing goblin&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Puuk:** treasure-bringing goblin&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, there's an additional passage:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kratt, also called puuk, pisuhänd, tulihänd, hännamees&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's quite common for the same entities appear with different names and appearances in mythologies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This happens, often, because there are different versions of the same tales that change over time or according to the regions. And someday, someone compiles the legends and discovers that there are characters that are, practically, the same entity and ends up merging them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I was answering a question from the Inuit culture, that a creature had different names and appearances. The representation was like as a bear, a creature with the size of a finger and sometimes as an invisible being. Some sources, however, cite him as a sea monster, a huge white bear, or even that his body is covered with eyes [3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found variations of his name as: Tornarsuk, Tornaq and Tungrangayak.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;Just for fun, while I was researching tales with those creatures, I found something very funny/interesting ([here][4]):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Estonian mythology, a Kratt is a magical creature. Essentially, Kratt was a servant built from hay or old household items. Therefore, the Estonian government uses this character as a metaphor for AI [Artificial Intelligence] and its complexities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;References:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1] LEACH, Maria; FRIED, Jerome. Standard Dictionary of Folklore, Mythology, and Legend. Funk &amp; Wagnalls, 1972.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[2]  BECONYTė, Giedrė; EISMONTAITė, Agnė; ŝEMAITIENė, Jovita. Mythical creatures of Europe. Journal Of Maps, [s.l.], v. 10, n. 1, p. 53-60, 9 dez. 2013. Informa UK Limited. http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/17445647.2013.867544. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[3] COULTER, Charles Russell; TURNER, Patricia. Encyclopedia of Ancient Deities. Chicago: Routledge, 2013.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[4]: https://www.kratid.ee/in-english" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21186" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6362" RevisionGUID="1e1be269-7171-47d9-abe4-dcb58007aad3" CreationDate="2020-06-12T09:03:15.300" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="21187" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6411" RevisionGUID="5218c759-1b4c-4e5f-8df4-e832b09771b0" CreationDate="2020-06-13T11:36:05.370" UserId="5511" Text="In Indian folklore, a popular tale is &quot;[The Brahman, the Tiger, and the Six Judges][1]&quot;. Another popular one is &quot;[The tiger, the fox and the hunters][2]&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Here's a few more tales from Malaya &amp; Pakistan.][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In most, the tiger is deceitful and not too bright.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Old_Deccan_Days/The_Brahman,_the_Tiger,_and_the_Six_Judges&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.be/books?id=L5mWDwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA80&amp;lpg=PA80&amp;dq=tiger%20indian%20fables&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=ecHvDu0zEt&amp;sig=ACfU3U2nHiwtC4tOoakeGYKsKXrM8t24aw&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwiomMid1v7pAhWSzKQKHUwcDC8Q6AEwCXoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&amp;q=tiger%20indian%20fables&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0092.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21189" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6413" RevisionGUID="09d22923-b169-41d8-9d51-418ba4f41ba8" CreationDate="2020-06-13T20:04:53.813" UserId="7011" Text="The story of Theseus' birth [has already been covered](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/37) in this forum. My question is about Pittheus' _motivation_ behind getting Aegeus drunk and offering him his daughter Aethra. In Euripedes' _Medea_, Aegeus describes Pittheus as ['closest of all my allies'](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0114%3Acard%3D663). So why did Pittheus, who understood the Pythia's prophesy, deliberately trick Aegeus into not following the prophesy and thus cause Aegeus' death (albeit quite some time later)? What did Pittheus have to gain by this? Influence in Athens?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21190" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6413" RevisionGUID="09d22923-b169-41d8-9d51-418ba4f41ba8" CreationDate="2020-06-13T20:04:53.813" UserId="7011" Text="Why did Pittheus trick Aegeus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21191" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6413" RevisionGUID="09d22923-b169-41d8-9d51-418ba4f41ba8" CreationDate="2020-06-13T20:04:53.813" UserId="7011" Text="|greek|theseus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21192" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6414" RevisionGUID="ae295e28-c1ba-4d52-b43f-4b2b2f6773f9" CreationDate="2020-06-14T00:30:31.310" UserId="2682" Text="**Evidently no, there is no such concern is the ancient accounts of this story.** Like many other extraordinary elements of these tales, such as Orpheus charming his way into the land of the dead by the power of his music, the assumption is simply that such things must have been possible.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Book 5 of Statius' *Silvae* describes Eurydice as having a funeral pyre, thereby implying that she was indeed cremated. As far as I've been able to find, however, there is no ancient mythography expressing any difficulty with the idea of anyone being resurrected—if a divinity who wants to enact this resuscitation should grant its occurrence—regardless of the condition of the body of the deceased.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Cleansing Fire**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interestingly, incidentally, fire is often an important medium used by the gods in order to transform a mortal into an immortal. Part of what makes Dionysus the special son of a divine father and a mortal mother is that, even before he was born, he was bathed in the same flames that killed his then-pregnant mother Semele whereupon he completed his gestation while sewn up into his father's thigh. This unorthodox procedure essentially rendered him immortal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for Semele herself, Book 8 of Nonnus' *Dionysiaca* says that, as she was being raised from the Underworld in order to be made into the goddess Thyone, she was given a &quot;new body&quot; which was &quot;bathed in the purifying fire&quot;. In his request to retrieve his wife from the dead, Orpheus does not seek for her to become immortal in the process of her proposed resurrection, so presumably the new body she would have acquired would not have required a baptism of flames.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Capaneus, For Example**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are indeed instances in this mythology of the cremated dead being restored to mortal bodily life, but we are not provided with the mechanics of this procedure, either because it was simply taken for granted that it was achievable by divine powers (such as when *Odyssey* 10.306 says that certain things are difficult for mortal men, but that &quot;with the gods all things are possible&quot;), or because records of such details have not survived into our time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the story of the war of the Seven Against Thebes, one of the city's seven attackers is a virtually gigantic Argive warrior named Capaneus, who gets blasted dead by a thunderbolt from Zeus while he scales one of the walls of Thebes. The fire kindled by the lightning-strike is so huge that days after Capaneus' demise, live flames are still consuming his body to the extent that there is no need to kindle his funeral pyre, which lights up as soon as he is set upon it. One wonders if even his bones could have survived such intensity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Capaneus is among the individuals said to have been resurrected from the dead by Asclepius before the latter became a god. Philodemus mentions that this story is told in Stesichorus' now-lost play *Eriphyle*. Sextus Empiricus informs us of this as well, without offering any detail, and we know that in the Classical period a certain Timesitheus wrote a bunch of plays, none of which are currently extant. One of these is entitled *Capaneus*, and perhaps might have told us what this resurrection looked like mechanically speaking.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Blood and the Threads of Fate**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aeschylus' *Agamemnon* alludes to the resurrections performed by Asclepius, who was killed by Zeus for bestowing this gift upon the dead: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But a man's blood, once it has first fallen by murder to earth in a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dark tide—who by magic spell shall call it back? Even he who possessed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the skill to raise from the dead—did not Zeus make an end of him as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; warning?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This could be interpreted figuratively as more poetic language, or perhaps it could be taken to mean that the life is (literally) in the blood (such as in [Leviticus 17:11](https://www.bible.com/bible/316/lev.17.11)), and so the resurrection mechanism involves the lost blood of the deceased somehow being reconstituted to form the (re)new(ed) body.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The more mystical aspect of this process is touched upon in Book 6 of Ovid's *Fasti*, wherein Theseus' son Hippolytus is resurrected by Asclepius. In so doing, this healer hero is said to be re-spinning the broken thread of the life of Hippolytus, against the will of Clotho, the fate-goddess responsible for spinning the threads of people's lives. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The same passage also describes how mangled the dead man's body is upon the request for him to be restored to life. This is not a matter of much concern to Asclepius, who promises to &quot;restore the pious youth to life all unscathed,&quot; which he does indeed manage to do by places some herbs on his chest and chanting a spell.    " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21195" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6338" RevisionGUID="d0723e3b-ea88-4e6d-9087-9c75f818c003" CreationDate="2020-06-14T09:17:20.187" UserId="3315" Comment="typos corrected" Text="Odin doesn't send anyone to Helheim. Only the dishonorable dead go there. Odin wants gods to win clearly. He wouldn't want monsters  to win and destroy things and cause destruction. He is rooting for his side, so he only sends the dishonorable dead there." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21196" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="6338" RevisionGUID="d0723e3b-ea88-4e6d-9087-9c75f818c003" CreationDate="2020-06-14T09:17:20.187" Comment="Proposed by 3315 approved by 2682, 5726 edit id of 1815" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21199" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6416" RevisionGUID="84fd4bfd-8b7a-4f1e-a3ed-55ca0428d632" CreationDate="2020-06-15T13:06:50.177" UserId="5726" Text="In Egyptian mythology Isis created a serpent to poison Ra and only gave him the antidote when he revealed his true name to her. Isis passed this name on to Horus, strengthening his royal authority.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The secret name of Ra&#xD;&#xA;---------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ra was known by many names by gods and their worshipers, but one name of Ra was not spoken of since the beginning of time. This secret name of Ra was secret for a reason, To know this name would give the orator power over Ra and everything he created. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Isis' plan&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Isis was a very powerful goddess, Mistress of Magic and very wise. Wise enough to know that nothing in creation could harm its own creator. She devised a plan to turn Ra's power against him and formulated a devious plan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Every day the Sun god walked through his kingdom, but even Ra was growing older and noticeably. One day when Isis was mingling with the other gods and goddesses, she noticed a drop of saliva falling from Ra's mouth. As soon as nobody was watching she retrieved this drop and the earth that contained it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As soon as it was dark she formed the earth and saliva into a clay serpent and used her spells on the serpent. She then placed this serpent in the grass on a crossroads the Sun King always took on his daily route through his kingdom. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## The plan works ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As Ra walked past the crossroads the serpent sprang to life and bit him in the ankle and then crumbled back into earth. Ra screamed so loud from the pain all of creation could hear him. Ra shook as the poison took hold of him. I have been wounded by something deadly that I did not create. Ra didn't suspect his offspring and loved ones but was in great pain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He sent forth messengers to all the Ennead so their magic could help him. Shu, Tefenet, Geb, Nut, Seth, Osiris, Isis and Nepthys. Many more of his created deities where summoned to their creator. When everyone was summoned Isis came forth and offered to help him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Father of All, she began, 'whatever is the matter'? Has some snake bitten you? Has some wretched creature dared to strike at the creator? Few of the gods can compare with me in their wisdom and I am the Mistress of Magic. If you let me help you, 'I'm sure I can cure you'.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Harris, Geraldine (1981). Gods &amp; Pharaohs from Egyptian Mythology page 25 &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## The spell ##&#xD;&#xA;Then a grateful Ra told Isis everything that had happened that day. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Isis replied: Tell me your full name so I can use it in my spells. Without this knowledge my greatest magic cannot save you. After Ra told all his known names Isis asked for the only name Ra alone knew.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ra moaned: My secret name was given to me so I can live at ease, and fear no living creature. How can I give it away?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Isis waited for the pain to be unbearable and Ra finally could not handle the excruciating pain. Ra ordered all other gods to stand back while he whispered his secret name to Isis. *&quot;Now the power of the secret name has passed from my heart to your heart, in time you can give it to your son (Horus) but warn him to never betray the secret&quot;.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Isis used her great magic to drive the poison out of Ra and knew that one day her son would wield the power of Ra and sit on the throne of Egypt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[ Harris, Geraldine (1981). Gods &amp; Pharaohs from Egyptian Mythology][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://archive.org/details/godspharaohsfrom00harr/page/24/mode/2up" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21200" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6417" RevisionGUID="24b464b5-533d-4430-a95e-4a4110795fb2" CreationDate="2020-06-15T13:49:29.090" UserId="399" Text="In the wuxia Chinese dramas it's very common for characters who went through great stress to have white hair.&#xD;&#xA;But, apparently, stress and emotional charge isn't the exact reason for this to occur, given that there are other occurrences of this situation and the hair color remains.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The other characters apparently fear those who have white hair.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some of the dramas that can be cited, in which this phenomenon occurs with one or more characters, are Princess Silver and Ashes of Love, but there are plenty others.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a relationship with Chinese culture or mythology, which explains why, exactly, the person loses hair color, and why it is feared?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;~I asked a question on the same topic on Stack Exchange Movies and TV, but I had no answer (https://movies.stackexchange.com/questions/109560/meaning-of-white-hair-in-chinese-dramas)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21201" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6417" RevisionGUID="24b464b5-533d-4430-a95e-4a4110795fb2" CreationDate="2020-06-15T13:49:29.090" UserId="399" Text="Is there a passage about white hair in Chinese mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21202" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6417" RevisionGUID="24b464b5-533d-4430-a95e-4a4110795fb2" CreationDate="2020-06-15T13:49:29.090" UserId="399" Text="|chinese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21203" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6418" RevisionGUID="5b7ccfcb-c2ed-4d85-b9a5-caa1ec542e92" CreationDate="2020-06-15T18:05:22.847" UserId="5511" Text="If you mean something like this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;that's actually a case of &quot;retroactive incorporation&quot; of a fairly recent story into movies about much older stories. White-Haired in Chinese is called 白髮 *baifa*, and this actually originates from stories collected in China in the 1930's. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The folklore of the [white-haired girl][2] is believed to have spread widely in the areas occupied by the Communist Party of Northern China since the late 1930s. Many years later, a literary work was created in the liberated area controlled by the Communist Party of China in the late 1940s.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason you see it so often in Wuxia movies about the Dynastic periods is probably the sixties novel 白髮魔女傳 (*[Baifa Monü Zhuan][3]*)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In older Chinese literature, grey hair (also called 白髮 *baifa*) is generally a sign of age, it has no special place in Chinese Mythology. The only possible exception is Quanyin, the goddess of mercy, who sometimes is depicted with white hair.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/VDykv.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Haired_Girl#:~:text=The%20folklore%20of%20the%20white,China%20in%20the%20late%201940s.&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baifa_Mon%C3%BC_Zhuan&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/maBk7.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21204" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6417" RevisionGUID="a0b023fb-1dbd-4a46-a7c7-078d4144e7a2" CreationDate="2020-06-15T19:48:05.507" UserId="399" Comment="deleted 190 characters in body" Text="In the wuxia Chinese dramas it's very common for characters who went through great stress to have white hair.&#xD;&#xA;But, apparently, stress and emotional charge isn't the exact reason for this to occur, given that there are other occurrences of this situation and the hair color remains.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The other characters apparently fear those who have white hair.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some of the dramas that can be cited, in which this phenomenon occurs with one or more characters, are Princess Silver and Ashes of Love, but there are plenty others.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a relationship with Chinese culture or mythology, which explains why, exactly, the person loses hair color, and why it is feared?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21205" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6419" RevisionGUID="5508071b-d29c-4c5f-9755-0754fb01cba8" CreationDate="2020-06-16T01:35:35.013" UserId="7003" Text="It's hard to think of a culture which did NOT have the concept of a secret name in the past.&#xD;&#xA;Even today it is common as recently as the last generation who are still with us, do not refer to their spouse by name even with extended faamily - it is always Himself/Herself.&#xD;&#xA;Similarly a woman will refer to her daughters-in-law by their maiden names.&#xD;&#xA;This is not just about Names having power but WORDS in general - eg Gaelic, Welsh, Arabic, Greek and many other languages rarely say 'yes' or 'no' if a circumlocution can avoid doing so." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21206" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6420" RevisionGUID="f2d7261a-6901-48ec-aaa4-06806d2ad990" CreationDate="2020-06-16T06:59:31.893" UserId="7016" Text="I'm trying to do some research into Kitsune's (and other fox spirits) but I am finding it difficult to find any named Kitsune apart from [Tamamo-no-Mae](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamamo-no-Mae) whom has been shown to be quite villianous (although they may be considered a protagonist of their story?)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there Kitsune's that can be considered more heroic or are there stories that I can use for my research? Named Kitsune's that serve Inari or even stories of Inari if there are any. I'm having quite a difficult time coming up with anything and would love to learn more on the subject!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21207" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6420" RevisionGUID="f2d7261a-6901-48ec-aaa4-06806d2ad990" CreationDate="2020-06-16T06:59:31.893" UserId="7016" Text="Were there ever any Kitsune considered to be Hero's or Protagonists of a story?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21208" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6420" RevisionGUID="f2d7261a-6901-48ec-aaa4-06806d2ad990" CreationDate="2020-06-16T06:59:31.893" UserId="7016" Text="|mythical-creatures|japanese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21209" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6421" RevisionGUID="4b19a28c-4db6-496c-89f9-becc79ec10b0" CreationDate="2020-06-16T09:33:30.507" UserId="5511" Text="Kitsune in Japanese mythology fall into one of two categories:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - 善狐 *zenko*, literally &quot;good foxes&quot;&#xD;&#xA; - 野狐 *yako*, literally &quot;foxes of the fields&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zenk are benevolent, celestial foxes associated with the god Inari; they are sometimes simply called Inari foxes. Even if they do not have nine tails they are always depicted as being white of color. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many stories of Kitsune falling in love with a human man and choosing to live out their lives in the human world. Most of the stories follow the same pattern: a young man falls in love with a beautiful fox lady and they marry, unknowing about the fox’s real identity. She proves to be a very loyal and good wife. But once the man discovers (mostly by accident) that his wife is a fox, she must flee in order to not be killed by the villagers. The most famous story is of [Kuzunoha][1], the mother of strong magic user [Abe no Seimei][2]. When fox wives bear children, they receive a part of their mother’s supernatural abilities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The tale of Kuzunoha was so popular it has been made into a Kabuki play called Ashiya Dōman Ōuchi Kagami (A Courtly Mirror of Ashiya Dōman) in 1734 based on a bunraku (puppet) play. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Here's a video][3] of a part of the play where Kuzunoha interacts with her young son Abe No Seimei (no subtitles).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuzunoha&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abe_no_Seimei&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://youtu.be/AbBtWYMfS8I" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21210" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6416" RevisionGUID="a94604d5-a7aa-4e9d-85dc-9ae956eac0a4" CreationDate="2020-06-16T15:07:54.190" UserId="5726" Comment="added 575 characters in body" Text="In Egyptian mythology [Isis][1] created a serpent to poison [Ra][2] and only gave him the antidote when he revealed his true name to her. Isis passed this name on to [Horus][3], strengthening his royal authority.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The secret name of Ra&#xD;&#xA;---------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ra was known by many names by gods and their worshipers, but one name of Ra was not spoken of since the beginning of time. This secret name of Ra was secret for a reason, To know this name would give the orator power over Ra and everything he created. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Isis' plan&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Isis was a very powerful goddess, Mistress of Magic and very wise. Wise enough to know that nothing in creation could harm its own creator. She devised a plan to turn Ra's power against him and formulated a devious plan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Every day the Sun god walked through his kingdom, but even Ra was growing noticeably older. One day when Isis was mingling with the other gods and goddesses, she noticed a drop of saliva falling from Ra's mouth. As soon as nobody was watching she retrieved this drop and the earth that contained it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As soon as it was dark she formed the earth and saliva into a clay serpent and used her spells on the serpent. She then placed this serpent in the grass on a crossroads the Sun King always took on his daily route through his kingdom. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## The plan works ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As Ra walked past the crossroads the serpent sprang to life and bit him in the ankle and then crumbled back into earth. Ra screamed so loud from the pain all of creation could hear him. Ra shook as the poison took hold of him. 'I have been wounded by something deadly that I did not create'. Ra didn't suspect his offspring and loved ones but was in great pain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He sent forth messengers to all the [Ennead][4] so their magic could help him. [Shu][5], [Tefenet][6], [Geb][7], [Nut][8], [Set][9], [Osiris][10], [Isis][1] and [Nepthys][11]. Many more of his created deities where summoned to their creator. When everyone was summoned Isis came forth and offered to help him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Father of All, she began, 'whatever is the matter'? Has some snake bitten you? Has some wretched creature dared to strike at the creator? Few of the gods can compare with me in their wisdom and I am the Mistress of Magic. If you let me help you, 'I'm sure I can cure you'.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Harris, Geraldine (1981). Gods &amp; Pharaohs from Egyptian Mythology page 25 &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## The spell ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then, a grateful Ra told Isis everything that had happened that day. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Isis replied: Tell me your full name so I can use it in my spells. Without this knowledge my greatest magic cannot save you. After Ra told all his known names Isis asked for the only name Ra alone knew.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ra moaned: My secret name was given to me so I can live at ease, and fear no living creature. How can I give it away?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Isis waited for the pain to be unbearable and Ra finally could not handle the excruciating pain. Ra ordered all other gods to stand back while he whispered his secret name to Isis. *&quot;Now the power of the secret name has passed from my heart to your heart, in time you can give it to your son (Horus) but warn him to never betray the secret&quot;.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Isis used her great magic to drive the poison out of Ra and knew that one day her son would wield the power of Ra and sit on the throne of Egypt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[ Harris, Geraldine (1981). Gods &amp; Pharaohs from Egyptian Mythology][12]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isis&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horus&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ennead&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shu_(Egyptian_god)&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tefnut&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geb&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nut_(goddess)&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_(deity)&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephthys&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://archive.org/details/godspharaohsfrom00harr/page/24/mode/2up" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21211" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6422" RevisionGUID="a4db7b26-bf17-4c8a-b6fa-d229626a3033" CreationDate="2020-06-16T15:10:55.160" UserId="7013" Text="I am writing a play in which Greek mythology is a worshipful act and wanted to write that the gods decided to eat the humanly harvest rather than the food (ambrosia, the nectar) of Olympus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any &quot;godly&quot; considered cooks or gods of banquets, rich foods, etc. in Greek (or Roman) Mythology? And if anything, more distinctly, was there a god who prepared the ambrosia for Jupiter and Juna on Mount Olympus?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you, any insight would be of gracious thanks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;VINCENT" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21212" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6422" RevisionGUID="a4db7b26-bf17-4c8a-b6fa-d229626a3033" CreationDate="2020-06-16T15:10:55.160" UserId="7013" Text="Were there cooks for the gods on Olympus in Greek(or Roman) Mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21213" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6422" RevisionGUID="a4db7b26-bf17-4c8a-b6fa-d229626a3033" CreationDate="2020-06-16T15:10:55.160" UserId="7013" Text="|greek|roman|olympus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21214" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6422" RevisionGUID="5bdfcc5b-4f22-4c6e-bb69-892ad89a4412" CreationDate="2020-06-16T17:00:17.660" UserId="53" Comment="Removed irrelevant fluff" Text="I am writing a play in which Greek mythology is a worshipful act and wanted to write that the gods decided to eat the humanly harvest rather than the food (ambrosia, the nectar) of Olympus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any &quot;godly&quot; considered cooks or gods of banquets, rich foods, etc. in Greek (or Roman) Mythology? And if anything, more distinctly, was there a god who prepared the ambrosia for Jupiter and Juna on Mount Olympus?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21215" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6423" RevisionGUID="12acb7a4-4612-449d-ae1f-c9acb53f448e" CreationDate="2020-06-16T18:31:40.773" UserId="399" Text="In the book Odyssey, it's said that ambrosia was carried to Olympus by doves [1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Here not even a bird may pass, no, not even **the timid doves that bring ambrosia  to  Father  Jove**,  but  the  sheer  rock  always  carries  off one of them, and Father Jove has to send another to make up their number&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;References&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1] HOMER. The Odyssey. 1:Translated by Samuel Butler. p. 202." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21216" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6423" RevisionGUID="f26b58fe-f4fa-43bc-b5ae-3938acff9e65" CreationDate="2020-06-16T18:39:43.660" UserId="399" Comment="added 242 characters in body" Text="In the book Odyssey, it's said that ambrosia was carried to Olympus by doves [1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Here not even a bird may pass, no, not even **the timid doves that bring ambrosia  to  Father  Jove**,  but  the  sheer  rock  always  carries  off one of them, and Father Jove has to send another to make up their number&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, Demeter was considered the goddess of crops and agriculture, being intrinsically linked to food.&#xD;&#xA;The Roman goddess counterpart is Ceres. [2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;References&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1] HOMER. The Odyssey. 1:Translated by Samuel Butler. p. 202.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[2] FINLEY, M. I.. The World of Odysseus. 4. ed. New York: New Yorknyrb Classics, 2002." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21217" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6423" RevisionGUID="71108c6b-97cf-4f7f-b2e1-3b233b94dd43" CreationDate="2020-06-16T18:48:51.087" UserId="399" Comment="added 242 characters in body" Text="In the book Odyssey, it's said that ambrosia was carried to Olympus by doves [1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Here not even a bird may pass, no, not even **the timid doves that bring ambrosia  to  Father  Jove**,  but  the  sheer  rock  always  carries  off one of them, and Father Jove has to send another to make up their number&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, Demeter was considered the goddess of crops and agriculture, being intrinsically linked to food.&#xD;&#xA;The Roman goddess counterpart is Ceres. [2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ceraon, Deipneo and Matton are greek semi-gods related to food. More specifically the bread preparation stages.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To Romans, Abundantia was the personification of abundance, carring the Cornucopia - presented as a large horn-shaped container overflowing with produce, flowers, or nuts [3][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;References&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1] HOMER. The Odyssey. 1:Translated by Samuel Butler. p. 202.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[2] FINLEY, M. I.. The World of Odysseus. 4. ed. New York: New Yorknyrb Classics, 2002.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[4] Apollodorus. The Library of Greek Mythology. 1. ed. Oxford University Press, 2008.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[4] PARKER, R. Polytheism and Society at Athens. OUP Oxford, 2005." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21218" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6424" RevisionGUID="dcad7eaf-f3fa-4b69-996d-54e7b790e49d" CreationDate="2020-06-17T15:28:24.217" UserId="5726" Text="[Hebe][1]&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hebe was the cup-bearer and poured ambrosia and nectar of the gods. You might know her better as the wife of Hercules, who upon his ascension to Mount Olympus &quot;got&quot; her from his enemy and her mother Hera as reconciliation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&quot;Now the gods at the side of Zeus were sitting in council over the golden floor, and among them the goddess Hebe (Youth) poured them nectar as wine, while they in the golden drinking-cups drank to each other, gazing down on the city of the Trojans.&quot;&lt;sub&gt;Homer, Iliad 4&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## [Ganymede][2] ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After the marriage between Hercules and Hebe Ganymede became the next cup-bearer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Verily wise Zeus carried off golden-haired Ganymedes (Ganymede) because of his beauty, to be amongst the Deathless Ones and pour drink for the gods in the house of Zeus--a wonder to see--, honoured by all the immortals as he draws the red nectar from the golden bowl deathless and unageing, even as the gods.&quot; &lt;sub&gt;Homeric Hymn 5 to Aphrodite 203&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;He that pours wine for Zeus [Ganymedes] was an oxherd.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Nonnus, Dionysiaca 15. 279&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ganymede was the loveliest born of the race of mortals, and therefore&#xD;&#xA;the gods caught him away to themselves, to be Zeus' wine-pourer,&#xD;&#xA;for the sake of his beauty, so he might be among the immortals. &lt;sub&gt;Homer, Iliad, Book 20&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## [Juventus][3] ##&#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Juventus was the Roman equivalent to Hebe and Ganymede&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;What viands and beverages, what harmonies of music and flowers of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; various hue, what delights of touch and smell will you assign to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gods, so as to keep them steeped in pleasure? The poets array banquets&#xD;&#xA;&gt; or nectar and ambrosia, with Juventas (Hebe or Ganymede) in attendance&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as cup-bearer.&quot; &lt;sub&gt;Cicero, De Natura Deorum 1. 40&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebe_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganymede_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juventas" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21220" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6425" RevisionGUID="df1ad6b7-7a3c-4a24-90fd-9d43555db6bd" CreationDate="2020-06-18T06:14:32.577" UserId="7021" Text="Hecate was the goddess of the harvest and often put on banquets for the gods and sometimes mortals. You also have Pan who was worshipped as the &quot;party god&quot; and/or Dionysus God of the vine. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21221" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6426" RevisionGUID="653f94df-7c61-4c4b-9353-7f60dd93dd48" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:34:09.450" UserId="7022" Text="Lots of cultures have varying myths about vampires. Do any of these myths mention a cure that could turn someone back into a human after they were infected?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21222" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6426" RevisionGUID="653f94df-7c61-4c4b-9353-7f60dd93dd48" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:34:09.450" UserId="7022" Text="Are there any mythological cures for vampirism?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21223" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6426" RevisionGUID="653f94df-7c61-4c4b-9353-7f60dd93dd48" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:34:09.450" UserId="7022" Text="|vampires|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21224" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3306" RevisionGUID="9e4e374b-39b5-4159-865b-cae70f69907f" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="While researching the question [What are the earliest known origins of Sasquatches in Native American culture in the Americas?][1] I found several sites claiming that [Leif Ericson][2] recorded an encounter with sasquatch in 968 AD. For example, the [Sasquatch Chronicles Blog][3]:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The oldest account of Bigfoot was recorded in 986 AD by Leif Ericson and his men. During their first landing in the New World, the Norsemen wrote about manlike beasts that were “horribly ugly, hairy, swarthy and with great black eyes.”&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Among his accounts, Leif told of seeing huge hairy men who towered over him and his men. The “huge hairy men”, according to Leif, lived in the Woods and had a rank odour and a deafening shriek. It should be noted that Leif Ericson and his men describe huge manlike beasts that were loud and foul-smelling and clearly distinct from native peoples. Apparently, Leif had several sightings of the “huge hairy men” before departing the island.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; They called the creature “Skellring”. People believe that the creature “Skellring” is what we know today as Bigfoot. This is the earliest recorded encounter with Bigfoot, or Sasquatch.&#xA;&#xA;What is the source of this story? Is an encounter with a creature that resembles sasquatch mentioned in any of the sagas that chronicle Leif Ericson's travels?&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/1805/4105&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leif_Erikson&#xA;  [3]: https://sasquatchchronicles.com/the-oldest-account-of-bigfoot-was-recorded-in-986-ad/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21225" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="922" RevisionGUID="e4d6299f-f627-4689-9a24-7d3875edc343" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Gefjun, an Aesir, apparently had four ox sons with a giant:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; But this woman was of the asa-race; her name was Gefjun. She took from the north, from Jotunheim, four oxen, which were the sons of a giant and her, and set them before the plow. Then went the plow so hard and deep that it tore up the land, and the oxen drew it westward into the sea, until it stood still in a sound. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Gylfaginning (The Fooling Of Gylfe), Prose Edda by Snorri Sturluson][1], Wikisource&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Do we know who this giant was? &#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21226" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="912" RevisionGUID="f03e7c85-8230-48ab-a7d2-e5440f0cd481" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In [The Wicker Man (1973)][1], the Mayday procession is headed by three masked characters:&#xA;&#xA;![Mayday procession in The Wicker Man][2]&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Their cast includes many alarming characters:  &#xA;&gt; A man-animal, or hobbyhorse,  &#xA;&gt; who canters at the head of the  &#xA;&gt; procession charging at the girls;  &#xA;&gt; A man-woman, the sinister teaser,  &#xA;&gt; played by the community leader or priest;  &#xA;&gt; And a man-fool, Punch,  &#xA;&gt; most complex of all the symbolic figures -  &#xA;&gt; the privileged simpleton and king for a day.  &#xA;&gt; Six swordsmen follow these figures...  &#xA;&gt; and at the climax of the ceremony  &#xA;&gt; lock their swords together...  &#xA;&gt; In a clear symbol of the Sun.  &#xA;&gt; In pagan times, however, these dances  &#xA;&gt; were not simply picturesque jigs.  &#xA;&gt; They were frenzied rites ending in a sacrifice  &#xA;&gt; by which the dancers hoped desperately  &#xA;&gt; to win over the goddess of the fields.  &#xA;&gt; In good times, they offered produce  &#xA;&gt; to the gods and slaughtered animals,  &#xA;&gt; but in bad years, when the harvest had been poor,  &#xA;&gt; the sacrifice was a human being.  &#xA;&gt; In some cultures, it would be the king himself.  &#xA;&gt; In others, the most beloved virgin.  &#xA;&gt; Very often he or she would be kept hidden  &#xA;&gt; for months preceding the ceremony,  &#xA;&gt; just as the Sun is hidden  &#xA;&gt; from the Earth in winter.  &#xA;&#xA;I would like to know if these are real characters from the Celtic mythology or they were just made up for the movie.  If yes, do they have formal names and what is the symbolic meaning of those characters beyond what was said in the movie?&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070917/&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/FL8XK.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21227" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="877" RevisionGUID="8d1e1ecb-f80e-4202-ad12-3ea41fd37f7a" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="## This is the myth of Baucis and Philemon.&#xA;&#xA;Here is the Wikipedia page: [Baucis and Philemon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baucis_and_Philemon), and here is one website with the full text (I think): [Tales Beyond Belief: Baucis and Philemon](http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/myth-stories/baucis-and-philemon.htm).&#xA;&#xA;By the way, the two gods were **Zeus** and **Hermes**, and the two trees were **oak** and **linden**." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21228" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="858" RevisionGUID="45d448d2-4105-4fb6-8e6f-2ed83a6b6db2" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In Islamic eschatology, [Masih ad-Dajjal][1] is a one eyed false messiah: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Allah's Apostle said. &quot;While I was sleeping, I saw myself (in a dream) performing Tawaf around the Ka'ba. Behold, I saw a reddish-white man with lank hair, and water was dropping from his head. I asked, &quot;Who is this?' They replied, 'The son of Mary.' Then I turned my face to see another man with a huge body, red complexion and curly hair and blind in one eye. His eye looked like a protruding out grape. They said (to me), He is Ad-Dajjal.&quot; The Prophet added, &quot;The man he resembled most is Ibn Qatan, a man from the tribe of Khuza'a. &quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 88: Afflictions and the End of the World, Volume 9, Number 242](http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/088-sbt.php#009.088.242)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;His missing eye appears to be significant, as it betrays his true nature: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Narrated Anas:&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The Prophet said, &quot;No prophet was sent but that he warned his followers against the one-eyed liar (Ad-Dajjal). Beware! He is blind in one eye, and your Lord is not so, and there will be written between his (Ad-Dajjal's) eyes (the word) Kafir (i.e., disbeliever).&quot; (This Hadith is also quoted by Abu Huraira and Ibn 'Abbas).&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 88: Afflictions and the End of the World, Volume 9, Number 245](http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/088-sbt.php#009.088.245)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Do we know how Masih ad-Dajjal ended up with such an obvious giveaway?&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masih_ad-Dajjal" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21229" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="847" RevisionGUID="edd9e101-7a9c-46d1-826c-d5a52b690615" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Odysseus was interested in marrying Helen, but he knew he wasn't a favourite amongst the suitors, and had anticipated that Helen would pick Menelaus, if given the choice: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; And from Ithaca the sacred might of Odysseus, Laertes son, who knew many-fashioned wiles, sought her to wife. He never sent gifts for the sake of the neat-ankled maid, for he knew in his heart that golden-haired Menelaus would win, since he was greatest of the Achaeans in possessions and was ever sending messages to horse-taming Castor and prize-winning Polydeuces.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hesiod, Catalogue of Women](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HesiodCatalogues.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Not wanting to leave Sparta empty handed, Odysseus devised the Oath which allowed Helen to choose her favourite, and him to marry Penelope. At this point in time, the Oath was a pretty smart plan; all major players got what they wanted, without conflict. Of course the plan wasn't foolproof and it did backfire eventually, but we can't really blame Odysseus for failing to predict Paris would cross paths with Helen a decade later. &#xA;&#xA;Lastly, I think it's interesting to note that the Oath's actual power is questionable: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; And to me it seemeth that Agamemnon got together that fleet, not so much for that he had with him the suitors of Helen bound thereto by oath to Tindareus as for this, that he exceeded the rest in power.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Thucydides, History of the Peloponnesian War, Book 1, chapter 9](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0003.tlg001.perseus-eng1:1.9)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xA;&#xA;Odysseus probably wouldn't have a choice, even if he wasn't bound by the Oath. It wasn't only the suitors that followed Agamemnon after all, the prime example of a non suitor that made it to Troy being [Achilles](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles). &#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21230" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="799" RevisionGUID="27b0c832-39e8-421f-8cd5-655f8a94e526" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Shoulder kissing is a tradition that seems to be practiced as a greeting in, among other places, Saudi Arabia and Iran.&#xA;&#xA;[*The Guardian*](http://www.theguardian.com/news/blog/2009/aug/03/iran-ahmadinejad-president-trials) has an article about one instance:&#xA;&gt; Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, was supposed to be endorsing Mahmoud Ahmadinejad for his second term as the president of Iran, but his awkward body language at today's ceremony has again raised questions about possible splits in the regime.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Ahmadinejad was permitted only a peck on the shoulder of Khamenei, and the supreme leader did not embrace the president as he did four years ago.&#xA;&#xA;[A blog](http://americanbedu.com/2009/05/12/how-to-kiss-saudi-style/) writes (emphasis mine)&#xA;&gt; A Saudi man greeting another Saudi man whom he knows and respects will likely shake nose-kissinghis hand, embrace him and kiss him. Usually like with the women, the kiss will take place on either side of the cheek. Sometimes they will exchange multiple “air kisses” to the sides of each others neck. Other times Saudi men who are well known to one another may share a brief “nose kiss” which is the tips of the noses touching. **Or if a Saudi man is an elder, the younger male may show his respect with a kiss to the shoulder, the hand or perhaps on the forehead. This manner in showing of affection is a natural custom and tradition in Saudi Arabia.**&#xA;&#xA;This indicates even more clearly that the gesture is between a subordinate and an elder. This seems to be more of a tradition, rather than an event specific to a myth." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21231" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="760" RevisionGUID="3ddd236e-a168-468d-8cdd-d84933d28e77" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="# The meaning of those two ravens is not 100% answered, yet. One possible explanation is as follows:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; In the Norse shamanic tradition, Odin's ravens represent the powers of necromancy, clairvoyance and telepathy, and they were guides for the dead. This poem expresses the shaman's fear of his loss of magical powers. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt; **The Well of Remembrance by Ralph Metzner, Shambala, Boston, 1994**&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;However, it is implied the name of one of the ravens is mistranslated:&#xA;&#xA;&gt;  **it’s often claimed that Munin’s name means “Memory,” but for this to be so, it would have to be derived from minni**, “memory,” **rather than munr, “desire.”** The latter, however, is by far the more parsimonious derivation; if the former were the case, we should expect Munin’s Old Norse name to have been something like “Minninn” rather than “Muninn.” Moreover, **the above verse from the Grímnismál makes much more sense if Munin’s name means “Desire” rather than “Memory”**.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Norse Mythology for Smart People][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Another possible explanation is the following, which is similar to first one:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; **Anthony Winterbourne** connects Huginn and Muninn to the Norse concepts **of the fylgja—a concept with three characteristics; shape-shifting abilities, good fortune, and the guardian spirit—and the hamingja—the ghostly double of a person that may appear in the form of an animal.** Winterbourne states that “**The shaman’s journey through the different parts of the cosmos is symbolized by the hamingja concept of the shape-shifting soul, and gains another symbolic dimension for the Norse soul in the account of Oðin’s ravens, Huginn and Muninn.”** &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt; [My Travels with Huggin and Munnin][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;However, [Rudolf Simek][3] has an entirely different point to make, saying that the names of the ravens were only used in later times:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; **Rudolf Simek is critical of the approach**, stating that **&quot;attempts have been made to interpret Odin's ravens as a personification of the god's intellectual powers, but this can only be assumed from the names Huginn and Muninn themselves which were unlikely to have been invented much before the 9th or 10th centuries&quot;** yet that the two ravens, as Odin's companions, appear to derive from much earlier times. **Instead, Simek connects Huginn and Muninn with wider raven symbolism in the Germanic world, including the Raven Banner (described in English chronicles and Scandinavian sagas), a banner which was woven in a method that allowed it, when fluttering in the wind, to appear as if the raven depicted upon it was beating its wings.**&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/others/hugin-and-munin/&#xA;  [2]: https://ljmoore.wordpress.com/2013/03/16/my-travels-with-huginn-and-muninn/&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Simek&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huginn_and_Muninn#Theories" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21232" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="752" RevisionGUID="cb472cea-f423-462a-81e0-501d19cd64cb" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="# It varies in different tales.&#xA;&#xA;[The Hawaiian Romance Of Laieikawai](http://fraternalorderofmoai.org/funstuff/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/The-Hawaiian-Romance-Of-Laieikawai-1917.pdf) contains numerous references to Nuu-mea-lani being in the air (emphasis mine):&#xA;&#xA;&gt; A terrible sight to Mokukelekahiki to see that lizard; **he flew away up to Nuumealani, the Raised Place in the Heavens;**&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; ---&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Then Kaeloikamalama flew down with Mokukelekahiki **from the heights of Nuumealani, the land in the air.**&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; ---&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Lo! on that day, the rainbow pathway was **let down from Nuumealani** and Kaonohiokala and Laieikawai mounted upon that way, and she laid her last commands upon her sisters, the seer, and Laielohelohe; these were her words:&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; ---&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Lailai flies to heaven, rests upon &quot;the boughs of the aoa tree in Nuumealani,&quot; and bears the earth.&#xA;&#xA;---&#xA;&#xA;[Legends of Gods and Ghosts](http://www.forgottenbooks.com/readbook_text/Legends_of_Gods_and_Ghosts_Hawaiian_Mythology_1000049143/201) implies that it is an island.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The boy was very angry and said: &quot;You have treated me cruelly, when I only came to see you and to love you. You would have taken my young life for sacrifice. Now you tell me you belong to the temple of my ancestors in Nuu-mea-lani.&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; ---&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Ke-au-nini returned on his ocean journey to Nuu-mea-lani." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21233" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="745" RevisionGUID="7f9b9152-1336-429b-8f60-bb4dca3b892b" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="### Ares and Athena are both gods of war.&#xA;&#xA;About [Athena][1]:&#xA;&#xA;&gt;Athena is the goddess of wisdom, courage, inspiration, civilization, law and justice, mathematics, strength, **war strategy**, the arts, crafts, and skill in ancient Greek religion and mythology.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;About [Ares][3]:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Ares is the **Greek god of war**. He is one of the Twelve Olympians, and the son of Zeus and Hera. In Greek literature, he often represents the physical or violent and untamed aspect of war, in contrast to his sister the armored Athena, whose functions as a goddess of intelligence include military strategy and generalship.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Since both gods represent war, **how are they different in relation to that? Is there any case where these two gods would come in conflict with one-another?**&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athena&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athena&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ares&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ares" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21234" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="736" RevisionGUID="ccffb1a8-e804-45f5-879d-142c4b7e00de" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="&gt; Does this story appear in Roman folklore?&#xA;&#xA;# No.&#xA;&#xA;Firstly, we should verify that the Magnus Maximus in the story is, in fact, the same Magnus Maximus as we see in recorded history.&#xA;&#xA;This excerpt is from [*De Excidio et Conquestu Britanniae*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Excidio_et_Conquestu_Britanniae), a historical document from the 6th century AD (emphasis mine):&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The tyranni.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; 13. At length also, as thickets of tyrants were growing up and bursting forth soon into an immense forest, the island retained the Roman name, but not the morals and law; nay rather, casting forth a shoot of its own planting, **it sends out Maximus[20] to the two Gauls**, accompanied by a great crowd of followers, with an emperor's ensigns in addition, which he never worthily bore nor legitimately, but as one elected after the manner of a tyrant and amid a turbulent soldiery. This man, through cunning art rather than by valour, first attaches to his guilty rule certain neighbouring countries or provinces against the Roman power, by nets of perjury and falsehood. He then extends **one wing to Spain, the other to Italy,** fixing the throne of his iniquitous empire at Trier, and raged with such madness against his lords that he drove two legitimate emperors, the one from Rome, the other from a most pious life. Though fortified by hazardous deeds of so dangerous a character, it was not long ere **he lost his accursed head at Aquileia:** he who had in a way cut off the crowned heads of the empire of the whole world.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Picts and Scots.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; 14. After this, **Britain is robbed of all her armed soldiery, of her military supplies, of her rulers, cruel though they were, and of her vigorous youth who followed the footsteps of the above-mentioned tyrant and never returned.** Completely ignorant of the practice of war, she is, for the first time, open to be trampled upon by two foreign tribes of extreme cruelty, the Scots from the north-west, the Picts from the north; and for many years continues stunned and groaning.[21]&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [*De Excidio et Conquestu Britanniae*, St. Gildas, 13-14](http://www.vortigernstudies.org.uk/arthist/vortigernquotesgil.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;This sounds like the same story as *The Dream of Macsen Wledig* (emphasis mine):&#xA;&#xA;&gt; And immediately the emperor set forth with his army. And these men were his guides. **Towards the Island of Britain they went over the sea and the deep. And he conquered the Island from Beli the son of Manogan,** and his sons, and drove them to the sea, and went forward even unto Arvon. And the emperor knew the land when he saw it. And when he beheld the castle of Aber Sain, &quot;Look yonder,&quot; said he, &quot;there is the castle wherein I saw the damsel whom I best love.&quot; And he went forward into the castle and into the hall, and there he saw Kynan the son of Eudav, and Adeon the son of Eudav, playing at chess. And he saw Eudav the son of Caradawc, sitting on a chair of ivory carving chessmen. And the maiden whom he had beheld in his sleep, he saw sitting on a chair of gold. &quot;Empress of Rome,&quot; said he, &quot;all hail!&quot; And the emperor threw his arms about her neck; and that night she became his bride.   &#xA;&gt;...  &#xA;&gt;Seven years did the emperor tarry in this Island. Now, at that time, the men of Rome had a custom, that whatsoever emperor should remain in other lands more than seven years, should remain to his own overthrow, and should never return to Rome again.   &#xA;&gt;So they made a new emperor. And this one wrote a letter of threat to Maxen. There was nought in the letter but only this. &quot;If thou comest, and if thou ever comest to Rome.&quot; And even unto Caerlleon came this letter to Maxen, and these tidings. Then sent he a letter to the man who styled himself emperor in Rome. There was nought in that letter also but only this. &quot;If I come to Rome, and if I come.&quot;   &#xA;&gt;**And thereupon Maxen set forth towards Rome with his army, and vanquished France and Burgundy, and every land on the way, and sat down before the city of Rome.**   &#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Dream of Macscen Wledig](http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/macsen.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;---&#xA;&#xA;Now that we know the historical figure is the same as the story's figure, we can talk a little about the history. Magnus Maximus was the emperor of the [**Western** Roman Empire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Roman_Empire) from 383-388 AD. The empire fell approximately 90-120 years later. For comparison, calling this story part of Roman Mythology would be a little bit like regarding the [Spanish-American War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish%E2%80%93American_War) as part of *&quot;American Mythology&quot;*.&#xA;&#xA;Most of Roman folklore and mythology comes from stories like [Ovid's Metamorphoses - 8 AD](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphoses), [Virgil's Aeneid - ~25 BC](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneid), and [Livy's Ab Urbe Condita Libri - ~25 BC](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ab_Urbe_Condita_Libri_(Livy)). Note that this is hardly a comprehensive list.&#xA;&#xA;However, Magnus Maximus was too close to the fall of the Roman empire to be reasonably included in it's mythos; he was emperor after the Empire split in two. This is why it is a relevant myth for the [5th century newly rising Anglo-Saxons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_settlement_of_Britain), but not for the Romans themselves.&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Note: I have decided that Wikipedia is a sufficient source for this part of answer as the facts contained herein are basic, widely accepted historic facts of the era.&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21235" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="735" RevisionGUID="bb6380a6-9272-495a-88ea-e759c7d98c47" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="**There haven't been any myths which describe the relationship or stories of interaction between Fenrir and Jörmungandr.**&#xA;&#xA;This could be because, in *Gylfaginning*, it is told that Fenrir, Jörmungandr and Hel were just children when they were separated.&#xA;&#xA;&gt;&quot;evil was to be expected from them, to begin with because of their mother's nature, but still worse because of their father's. **Then All-Father sent the gods to get the children and bring them to him. And when they came to him, he threw the serpent into that deep sea which lies round all lands**, and this serpent grew so that it lies in the midst of the ocean encircling all lands and bites on its own tail&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sub&gt;source: Faulkes, https://notendur.hi.is/eybjorn/ugm/hymir/hym22.html&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Fenrir is then bound with the chain Gleipner until the day of Ragnarök. &#xA;&#xA;With Fenrir held bound by the chain and Jörmungandr lying deep in the ocean, until the time of Ragnarök, there were no possibilities or incidences of them meeting each other.&#xA;&#xA;----&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;**Note:** I'm not sure if this counts, but in some versions of the story, it is said that Fenrir and Jörmungandr enter the battle of Ragnarök together.&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21236" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="731" RevisionGUID="534fa42b-fe6b-44e2-a4e4-9f7b01b3859a" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In [*Vita Merlini*](http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/merlini.html), Merlin goes quite mad for a while, speaking of Britain in the past and remarking on nature and religion. He makes grand prophecies of what will happen in the future - he is, after all, a prophet. All of this happens while he resides in the woods, in a house with 70 windows and doors.&#xA;&#xA;After he regains his sanity, his sister, Ganieda, and his friends Maeldin and Taliesin decide to turn their backs on the outside and world and live with him in his house in the woods.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The chieftains departed. The three remained, and with them a fourth--Ganieda, the prophet's sister, who had finally taken to their way of life also. She had been leading a retired life since the death of the king. She who till now had been the queen of a large nation under the appointed law, now found nothing pleasanter than living in the woods with her brother. She, too, was from time to time exalted in spirit to sing often of the future of the kingdom. So, one day when she stood in her brother's hall and gazed at the house and at its windows glittering in the sun, she uttered these dark sayings out of a dark heart:&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &quot;I see the city of Oxford filled with helmeted men, and holy men and holy bishops bound on the decision of the Council.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; . . .&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; She did not end with this, and her friends listened in amazement.  So also did her brother, who after a while went up to her and congratulated her in kindly words, saying, &quot;Sister, is it you the spirit has willed to foretell the future? He has curbed my tongue and closed my book. Then this task is given to you. Be glad of it, and under my authority declare everything faithfully.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;Throughout the whole story, Merlin seems to have attributed many things in the world that have helped him to God. Yet his remark at the end - about &quot;the spirit&quot; - seems a bit cryptic.&#xA;&#xA;Who does Merlin attribute his - and his sister's - gift of prophecy to? Is it God, or something else (perhaps the same being who caused his madness, leading him to the woods)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21237" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="730" RevisionGUID="84cbe306-afb4-439a-80de-be80dcd89989" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The Titans overthrew the [primordials][1], the first beings that came into existence. More specifically, according to Hesiod the Titans, lead by [Cronos][2], castrated [Uranus][3] (personification of the sky) at the behest of [Gaia][4] (personification of the earth): &#xA;&#xA;&gt; (ll. 147-163) And again, three other sons were born of Earth and Heaven, great and doughty beyond telling, Cottus and Briareos and Gyes, presumptuous children. From their shoulders sprang an hundred arms, not to be approached, and each had fifty heads upon his shoulders on their strong limbs, and irresistible was the stubborn strength that was in their great forms. For of all the children that were born of Earth and Heaven, these were the most terrible, and they were hated by their own father from the first.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; And he used to hide them all away in a secret place of Earth so soon as each was born, and would not suffer them to come up into the light: **and Heaven rejoiced in his evil doing. But vast Earth groaned within, being straitened, and she made the element of grey flint and shaped a great sickle, and told her plan to her dear sons. And she spoke, cheering them, while she was vexed in her dear heart:**&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; (ll. 164-166) **'My children, gotten of a sinful father, if you will obey me, we should punish the vile outrage of your father; for he first thought of doing shameful things.'**&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; (ll. 167-169) So she said; but fear seized them all, and none of them uttered a word. But great Cronos the wily took courage and answered his dear mother:&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; (ll. 170-172) `Mother, I will undertake to do this deed, for I reverence not our father of evil name, for he first thought of doing shameful things.'&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; (ll. 173-175) So he said: and vast Earth rejoiced greatly in spirit, and set and hid him in an ambush, and put in his hands a jagged sickle, and revealed to him the whole plot.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; (ll. 176-206) And Heaven came, bringing on night and longing for love, and he lay about Earth spreading himself full upon her (7).&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; **Then the son from his ambush stretched forth his left hand and in his right took the great long sickle with jagged teeth, and swiftly lopped off his own father's members and cast them away to fall behind him. And not vainly did they fall from his hand**; for all the bloody drops that gushed forth Earth received, and as the seasons moved round she bare the strong Erinyes and the great Giants with gleaming armour, holding long spears in their hands and the Nymphs whom they call Meliae (8) all over the boundless earth. And so soon as he had cut off the members with flint and cast them from the land into the surging sea, they were swept away over the main a long time: and a white foam spread around them from the immortal flesh, and in it there grew a maiden. First she drew near holy Cythera, and from there, afterwards, she came to sea-girt Cyprus, and came forth an awful and lovely goddess, and grass grew up about her beneath her shapely feet. Her gods and men call Aphrodite, and the foam-born goddess and rich-crowned Cytherea, because she grew amid the foam, and Cytherea because she reached Cythera, and Cyprogenes because she was born in billowy Cyprus, and Philommedes (9) because sprang from the members. And with her went Eros, and comely Desire followed her at her birth at the first and as she went into the assembly of the gods. This honour she has from the beginning, and this is the portion allotted to her amongst men and undying gods, -- the whisperings of maidens and smiles and deceits with sweet delight and love and graciousness.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; (ll. 207-210) But these sons whom be begot himself great Heaven used to call Titans (Strainers) in reproach, for he said that they strained and did presumptuously a fearful deed, and that vengeance for it would come afterwards.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Theogony of Hesiod, translated by Hugh G. Evelyn-White](http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_primordial_deities&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranus_(mythology)&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_(mythology)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21238" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="727" RevisionGUID="037deb09-0ded-4b1f-b162-7a949469112a" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="## The concept of [*mes*][1] refers to set of *ordinances* or *decrees* as defined by the gods:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; **In Sumerian mythology, a me (Sumerian, conventionally pronounced [mɛ]) or ñe [ŋɛ] or parşu (Akkadian, [parsˤu]) is one of the decrees of the gods foundational to those social institutions**, religious practices, technologies, behaviors, mores, and human conditions that make civilization, as the Sumerians understood it, possible. They are fundamental to the Sumerian understanding of the relationship between humanity and the gods.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Kramer and Maier explain the concept of *mes*, but also the relationship of [*Inanna*][3] with them :&#xA;&#xA;&gt; **Another important concept in Sumerian theology, was that of me. The me were universal decrees of divine authority.** They are the invocations that spread arts, crafts, and civilization. **The me were assembled by Enlil in Ekur and given to Enki to guard and impart to the world**, beginning with Eridu, his center of worship. From there, he guards the me and imparts them on the people. He directs the me towards Ur and Meluhha and Dilmun, organizing the world with his decrees. Later, **Inanna comes to Enki and complains at having been given too little power from his decrees.** In a different text, she gets Enki drunk and he grants her more powers, arts, crafts, and attributes - a total of ninety-four me. **Inanna parts company with Enki to deliver the me to her cult center at Erech.** Enki recovers his wits and tries to recover the me from her, but she arrives safely in Erech with them. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[(Kramer &amp; Maier 1989: pp. 38-68)][4]&lt;/sub&gt; &lt;br/&gt;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Sumerian FAQ][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;There are over 100 mes (around 80 are known to us and are listed [here][6]), some of which are:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; 1. **Godship**&#xA;&gt; 2. **The exalted shrine**&#xA;&gt; 3. **The flood**&#xA;&gt; 4. **Sexual intercourse**&#xA;&gt; 5. **Prostitution**&#xA;&gt; 6. **Art**&#xA;&#xA;and are some times represented as physical objects:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; In Uruk, by the big apple tree, Dumuzi, the husband of Inanna, **was dressed in his shining me garments**.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Descent of Inanna][7]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Let me note, that a possible interpretation of the myth is the transfer of hegemony from [Eridu][8] to [Uruk][9] in [Sumerian History][10]:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Eridu was long considered the **earliest city in southern Mesopotamia**, and is still today argued to be the oldest city in the world.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][11]&lt;/sub&gt; &lt;br/&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Leick, Gwendolyn (2002), &quot;Mesopotamia: The Invention of the City&quot;][12]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;&lt;hr /&gt;&#xA;&#xA;&gt; In addition to being one of the first cities, Uruk was the main force of urbanization during the Uruk period (4000–3200 BC). This period of 800 years **saw a shift from small, agricultural villages to a larger urban center** with a full-time bureaucracy, military, and stratified society.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][13]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_%28mythology%29&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_%28mythology%29&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inanna&#xA;  [4]: http://www.amazon.com/Myths-Enki-Crafty-Samuel-Kramer/dp/0195055020&#xA;  [5]: http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/sumer-faq.html&#xA;  [6]: http://one-heaven.org/sacred_texts/book/Inanna_and_the_God_of_Wisdom/c/3.html&#xA;  [7]: http://people.uncw.edu/deagona/myth/Descent%20Of%20Inanna.pdf&#xA;  [8]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eridu&#xA;  [9]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruk&#xA;  [10]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Sumer&#xA;  [11]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eridu&#xA;  [12]: http://www.amazon.co.uk/372/dp/0140265740&#xA;  [13]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruk" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21239" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="933" RevisionGUID="5465382c-d8d1-4b51-a0c9-89eafbc7659b" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The site that michaelpri gives is incorrect. Here is the relevant passage in Hesiod, starting at line 116:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; First Chaos came to be, but next wide-bosomed Earth (Gaia), the ever-sure foundations of all the deathless ones who hold the peaks of snowy Olympus, and dim Tartarus in the depth of the wide-pathed Earth, and Love (Eros), fairest among the deathless gods, who unnerves the limbs and overcomes the mind and wise counsels of all gods and all men within them. From Chaos came forth Erebus and black Night (Nyx); but of Night were born Aether and Day (Hemera), whom she conceived and bare from union in love with Erebus. And Earth first bare starry Heaven (Ouranos, Latinized as Uranus), equal to herself, to cover her on every side, and to be an ever-sure abiding-place for the blessed gods.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Theogony of Hesiod, translated by Hugh G. Evelyn-White][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21240" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="723" RevisionGUID="867be805-dbad-4220-b33a-bd50eeed1d20" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Yes, there is a basis for it.  In [Herodotus, Book II](http://perseus.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/GreekScience/hdtbk2.html):&#xA;&#xA;&gt; **Chapter 90**&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; [1] Anyone, Egyptian or foreigner, known to have been carried off by a crocodile or drowned by the river itself, must by all means be embalmed and wrapped as attractively as possible and buried in a sacred coffin by the people of the place where he is cast ashore;  &#xA;&gt; [2] none of his relatives or friends may touch him, but his body is considered something more than human, and is handled and buried by the priests of the Nile themselves.&#xA;&#xA;Aaron Cheak, of the University of Philosophical Research writes more on the topic in an article titled: [&quot;Waters Animating and Annihilating: Apotheosis by Drowning in the Greek Magical Papyri&quot;](http://www.aaroncheak.com/waters-animating/) (Yes, sketchy-sounding name aside, the [Greek Magical Papyri](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Magical_Papyri) are a real thing).  He asserts that this apotheosis by drowning was due to the connection to the death and ressurection of Osiris:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Only later, from the New Kingdom through to the late period, were the drowned increasingly regarded as sacred. This is due chiefly to the increasing significance of the role of Osiris, for whom drowning becomes instrumental to his revivification and deification. As Hopfner observes: “only after death by drowning could he [Osiris] become a god.” It is thus the myth of Osiris—and more significantly his death and resurrection at the hands of his enemy, Seth-Typhon—that underpins the motif of apotheosis by drowning that we meet in the magical papyri.&#xA;&#xA;-----&#xA;&#xA;Also worth mentioning, there is one significant example of a drowning in the Nile leading to a good and proper Roman state deification, complete with widespread cult.  [Antinous](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinous#Deification_and_the_cult_of_Antinous), a lover of Emperor Hadrian, died by downing in the Nile.  Emperor Hadrian was devasted, and, in an unprecented move (for someone not in the ruling family), Hadrian deified him.  His cult spread to at least 70 cities, and at least 115 scultures of him are known to survive today.&#xA;&#xA;The first blog linked in your question seems to have conflated these two somewhat, although I didn't really give it a thorough read." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21241" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="719" RevisionGUID="a2cd1aee-20d9-429d-a235-4e85913d7b13" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="### The magnitude of Cain's crime was immense.&#xA;&#xA;According to the record in Genesis, the first children of Adam and Eve that we know of are Cain, Abel, and Seth. At the time that Cain killed Abel, then, it is plausible to conclude that Cain just killed half of the rest of the human race. It's bad enough to kill someone else, worse to kill them over the quality of sacrifices and God's acceptance of them, worse still to kill your own brother, and then you add in the fact that Cain killed one of only four humans alive at the time. Cain has committed one of the greatest crimes imaginable. He is very much deserving of death, and he has good reason to be fearful of others that might want to take vengeance.&#xA;&#xA;### The identity of the others.&#xA;&#xA;Who are these others, you might ask? Well...&#xA;&#xA;&gt; 3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. 4 After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; 6 When Seth had lived 105 years, he became the father of Enosh. 7 After he became the father of Enosh, Seth lived 807 years and had other sons and daughters.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; ~ [Genesis 5](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%205&amp;version=NIV)&#xA;&#xA;I would conjecture that Cain lived about as long as Seth, give or take a couple hundred years.&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; Supposing somewhat arbitrarily that Cain lived 800 years, in that time the family tree would be at least **six** levels deep just from Seth's branch. The following people would have been born in Cain's lifespan: Seth, Enosh, Kenan, Mahalalel, Jared, Enoch, and Methusaleh. This is not counting the other sons and daughters *each* of them had. Including Adam, incidentally. To get a rough, lower-bound estimate for the number of descendants of Seth alive in Cain's time, I'm going to assume that each son had five children, three of whom are sons.&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; This leads to **at least 1215** people alive in Cain's lifetime who would have had reason to find him and kill him.&#xA;&#xA;That's a lower bound. Adam and Eve also had &quot;other sons and daughters&quot; (which would bump up the population to at least 4000), and Cain himself had progeny. We're talking at least **5000** people living before Cain died, a significant portion of which might want to kill him. It is also quite possible that Adam and Eve already had other children by the time they had Cain, and in either case, Cain was probably smart enough to realize that there would be other people that would want to kill him, even if they hadn't been born yet. Hence, his fear is justified.&#xA;&#xA;---&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; Now that's a phrase you won't hear often regarding human lifespans.&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; Given the lack of a prohibition against incest, which didn't appear until Moses' time&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;, I'm going to assume that the daughters very well might have married brothers/cousins. It's easiest to leave them out of the calculation (and I'm calculating a *lower* bound anyway).&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; [Leviticus 18:8-18](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=leviticus%2018:8-18:18&amp;version=NIV) and [Leviticus 20:11-21](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=leviticus%2020:11-20:21&amp;version=NIV)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21242" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="717" RevisionGUID="9789fffa-34e8-44af-b607-2a2b2150a81f" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="# Sásq'ets is a mythical creature. . . Sort of.&#xA;&#xA;# Etymology and related names&#xA;&#xA;[*Sasquatch: Legend Meets Science*, by Jeff Meldrum](http://books.google.com/books?id=ggeQHFa5E7AC&amp;lpg=PA50&amp;dq=salish+sasquatch&amp;pg=PA50&amp;hl=en#v=onepage&amp;q=salish%20sasquatch&amp;f=false), says (emphasis mine):&#xA;&gt; The various tribes across North America have attached their own names to the entity. These names number more than sixty, but most generally make reference to a &quot;Wildman of the woods.&quot; In the 1920s, Canadian journalist J.W. Burns coined the term *Sasquatch* as a common denominator for the myriad of native names. ***Sasquatch* derives directly from the word &quot;*sésquac*.&quot;** The original word, in the dialect of the Stó:lò dialect of the Halkomelem language, is used by the Coast Sasqu Indians of the Frase Valley and parts of Vancouver Island, British Columbia.&#xA;&#xA;[This](http://thelongestlistofthelongeststuffatthelongestdomainnameatlonglast.com/trivia10.html) translates &quot;sésquac&quot; as &quot;wild man.&quot; [This](http://www.bfro.net/gdb/show_FAQ.asp?id=584) has a passage curiously similar to the one in Meldrum's book:&#xA;&gt; The term &quot;sasquatch&quot; is an anglicized derivative of the word &quot;Sésquac&quot;, meaning &quot;wild man&quot;. The original word, in the Stó:lõ dialect of the Halkomelem language, is used by the Coast Salish Indians of the Fraser Valley and parts of Vancouver Island, British Columbia. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Indian tribes across North America have a total of more than sixty different terms for the sasquatch.&#xA;&#xA;Strangely enough, Meldrum is not listed in the [&quot;Useful Links&quot;](http://www.bfro.net/gdb/show_FAQ.asp?id=588) section, though that should not be confused with sources.&#xA;&#xA;A fairly detailed list of name related to the creature is given by [Ontario Sasquatch](http://www.ontariosasquatch.com/#/canadian-names-pg-1/4522683510). Most related words are simply translated as &quot;Sasquatch&quot; (or &quot;male Sasquatch&quot; or &quot;female Sasquatch&quot;), though the word &quot;Suhsq’uhtch&quot;, used by the Coast Salish people, is translated as &quot;men, covered with dark fur, more than eight feet tall, who leave footprints about twenty inches long.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;[The Cowicham people gave the creatures the name &quot;Thumquas.&quot;](http://www.joejack.com/sasquatch.html). Interestingly enough, the Cowicham people do speak [Halkomelem](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halkomelem), though Wikipedia describes them as speaking a branch distinct from that of the Stó:lò.&#xA;&#xA;# Mythology&#xA;&#xA;One of the most tantalizing sources I could find about the mythology surrounding the name was from the article [&quot;Retired principal puts out second pre-teen novel&quot;, by Clyde Woolman (*Comox Valley Record*)](http://www.comoxvalleyrecord.com/entertainment/224265911.html) (emphasis mine):&#xA;&gt; It at least seems reasonably clear that the origin of the English word came from an Agassiz teacher in the 1920s **who heard the term sasq'ets from the Sts'ailes (Chehalis) people) who live in the area, which described a sollicum, a being of the natural and supernatural world.**&#xA;&#xA;The word &quot;sollicum&quot; does not seem to appear anywhere else related the Chehalis mythology - at least, nowhere that I could find.&#xA;&#xA;[A page on SasquatchSighting.ca](http://sasquatchsighting.ca/the-legend-of-saskakaua-creek) claims (emphasis mine),&#xA;&gt; **The legends of Sasquatch have been part of the Chehalis tribe for centuries. In fact, their oral history says that sasquatch are their mortal enemies.** And in their St:olo dialect the word Saskakaua roughly means “Place of the Wild Men”.&#xA;&#xA;[*The Sunday Journal and Star*](http://www.bfro.net/GDB/ReportImages/article_bc_1934_NE_large.gif) says much the same thing. In the lower left-hand corner,&#xA;&gt; The existence of a troglodytic race inhabiting the mountains of British Columbia in many of the vast caves  is a tribal legend among the Chehalis Indians and those of the Skwah Reservation, near Chilliwack, in the Harrison Lake district, about a hundred miles east of Vancouver. Among the Indians the race has been known for centuries by the name &quot;Sasquatch,&quot; or hairy men.&#xA;&#xA;The article later says that legends date back &quot;at least three generations&quot; (this was written in 1934).&#xA;&#xA;[This](http://www.bigfootencounters.com/articles/sasq-ets.htm) also says&#xA;&gt; The creature has a spiritual quality for the Chehalis--the spiritual and physical are closely connected in First Nations beliefs.&#xA;&#xA;It also says that First Nations people all over have legends based around the creature, and that rock paintings appear to have been made of them.&#xA;&#xA;I was not able to find anything about &quot;Thumquas,&quot; unfortunately.&#xA;&#xA;One a side note, [the Quinalt people have a legend about a being known as &quot;Glue-Keek&quot;](http://www.bigfootencounters.com/articles/quinalt.htm). A Quinalt woman, Harvest Moon, tells the story (also given [here](http://www.sasquatchchronicles.com/bigfoot-believers/):&#xA;&gt; Harvest Moon is familiar with several native legends about Bigfoot. The Quinault woman works as a storyteller at the Lake Quinault Lodge and other resorts along the coast during the summer.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; She tells the story of the Glue-Keek monster she learned from a Lummi elder and its ties to the creation of mosquitos. The monster frightens tribal members and prevents them from hunting and gathering food.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; His legs were as big as tree trunks, she said while swaying her hips and making arm and hand gestures during a recent storytelling presentation at the Lake Quinault Lodge. His skin was as tough as leather and his eyes had a hypnotic glow to them. The monster started chasing the women through the berry patch. He took his huge, big feet, knocking over every basket of berries, wasting them on the ground.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; According to the legend, warriors from various tribes gathered and vowed to kill the monster. They dug a hole, tricked Glue-Keek into falling into it and burned him. As Glue-Keek perished, he swore he would return to drink the villagers blood. As his ashes ascended into the air, they transformed into mosquitos." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21243" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="694" RevisionGUID="cf3252e3-50cb-40c9-9cdb-c3596ff6bd9f" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Fergus didn't offer only to retreat in battle himself.  He promised to retreat *with the men of Erin in tow*.&#xA;&#xA;From [19. The Battle Of Fergus And Cuchulain](http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/Fergus.html) (emphasis mine)&#xA;&#xA;&gt; &quot;...give way before me this day in the presence of the men of Erin!&quot; &quot;Truly I am loath to do that,&quot; answered Cuchulain, &quot;to flee before any one man on the Cattle-spoil of Cualnge.&quot; &quot;Nay then it is not a thing to be taken amiss by thee,&quot; said Fergus; &quot;for I in my turn will retreat before thee when thou wilt be covered with wounds and dripping with gore and pierced with holes in the battle of the Táin. **And when I alone shall turn in flight before thee, so will all the men of Erin also flee before thee in like manner.&quot;**&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; **So zealous was Cuchulain to do whatever made for Ulster's weal** that he had his chariot brought to him, and he mounted his chariot and he went in confusion and flight from Fergus in the presence of the men of Erin. &#xA;&#xA;So Fergus has not just offered Cuchulainn an out on a difficult situation, he's offered him a serious advantage on the battlefield, with which to defend Ulster.&#xA;&#xA;Cuchulainn makes clear with his initial rejection of the agreement that simply not wanting to kill (or be killed by) his foster-father is not enough to compel him to yield.  Only something gained &quot;for Ulster's weal&quot; will suffice.&#xA;&#xA;Ferdiad, on the other hand, had only just arrived (against his will) in Mebd and Ailill's camp.  He had no armies with which he could offer such an advantage to Cuchulainn.  Even if he had wished to make such an agreement, he would not have been able to offer much, apart from his own life, which was already being offered in single combat." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21244" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="691" RevisionGUID="24cf2780-1185-4d59-bb5c-7bd49c1cdb43" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Livy, Plutarch, Dionysius of Halicarnassus and Polybius seem to agree that Horatius Cocles was on foot, when he defended the bridge. &#xA;&#xA;### Livy&#xA;&#xA;&gt; He therefore warned and commanded them to break down the bridge with steel, with fire, with any instrument at their disposal; and promised that he would himself receive the onset of the enemy, so far as it could be withstood by a single body. Then, striding to the head of the bridge, conspicuous amongst the fugitives who were clearly seen to be shirking the fight, he covered himself with his sword and buckler and made ready to do battle at close quarters, confounding the Etruscans with amazement at his audacity.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Yet were there two who were prevented by shame from leaving him. These were Spurius Larcius and Titus Herminius, both famous for their birth and their deeds. With these he endured the peril of the first rush and the stormiest moment of the battle. But after a while he forced even these two to leave him and save themselves, for there was scarcely anything left of the bridge, and those who were cutting it down called to them to come back. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Titus Livius (Livy), The History of Rome, Book 2, Benjamin Oliver Foster, Ph.D., Ed.](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:latinLit:phi0914.phi0012.perseus-eng1:10)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;### Plutarch&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Horatius Cocles, however, first, and with him two of the most illustrious men of the city, Herminius and Lartius, defended the wooden bridge against them. Horatius had been given his surname of Cocles because he had lost one of his eyes in the wars. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Some, however, say that his nose was flat and sunken, so that there was nothing to separate his eyes, and his eye-brows ran together, and that for this reason the multitude wished to call him Cyclops, but by a slip of the tongue the name of Cocles became generally prevalent instead. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; This Cocles, standing at the head of the bridge, kept the enemy back until his companions had cut the bridge in two behind him. Then, all accoutred as he was, he plunged into the river and swam across to the other side, in spite of a wound in the buttocks from a Tuscan spear. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Publicola, out of admiration for his valour, proposed that every Roman should at once contribute for him as much provision as each consumed in a day, and that afterwards he should be given as much land as he could plough round in a day. Besides this, they set up a bronze statue of him in the temple of Vulcan, to console him with honour for the lameness consequent upon his wound.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Life of Publicola, The Parallel Lives by Plutarch, published in Vol. I of the Loeb Classical Library edition, 1914](http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Lives/Publicola*.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;### Dionysius of Halicarnassus&#xA;&#xA;&gt; While they were all fleeing to the city and endeavouring to force their way in a body over a single bridge, the enemy made a strong attack upon them; and the city came very near being taken by storm, and would surely have fallen if the pursuers had entered it at the same time with those who fled. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Those who checked the enemy's attack and saved the whole army were three in number, two of them older men, Spurius Larcius and Titus Herminius, who commanded the right wing, and one a younger man, Publius Horatius, who was called Cocles from an injury to his sight, and one of his eyes having been struck out in a battle, and was the fairest of men in philosophical appearance and the bravest in spirit. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; This man was nephew to Marcus Horatius, one of the consuls, and traced his descent from Marcus Horatius, one of the triplets who conquered the Alban triplets when the two cities, having become involved in war over the leadership, agreed not to risk a decision with all their forces, but with three men on each side, as I have related in one of the earlier books.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; These three men, then, all alone, with their backs to the bridge, barred the passage of the enemy for a considerable time and stood their ground, though pelted by many foes with all sorts of missiles and struck with swords in hand-to-hand conflict, till the whole army had crossed the river.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; When they judged their own men to be safe, two of them, Herminius and Larcius, their defensive arms being now rendered useless by the continual blows they had received, began to retreat gradually. But Horatius alone, though not only the consuls but the rest of the citizens as well, solicitous above all things that such a man should be saved to his country and his parents, called to him from the city to retire, could not be prevailed upon, but remained where he had first taken his stand, and directed Herminius and Larcius to tell the consuls, as from him, to cut away the bridge in all haste at the end next the city (there was but one bridge in those days, which was built of wood and fastened together with the timbers alone, without iron, which the Romans preserve even to my day in the same condition), and to bid them, when the greater part of the bridge had been broken down and little of it remained, to give him notice of it by some signals or by shouting in a louder voice than usual; the rest, he said, would be his concern. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Having given these instructions to the two men, he stood upon the bridge itself, and when the enemy advanced upon him, he struck some of them with his sword and beat down others with his shield, repulsing all who attempted to rush upon the bridge. For the pursuers, looking upon him as a madman who was courting death, dared no longer come to grips with him. At the same time it was not easy for them even to come near him, since he had the river as a defence on the right and left, and in front of him a heap of arms and dead bodies. But standing massed at a distance, they hurled spears, javelins, and large stones at him, and those who were not supplied with these threw the swords and bucklers of the slain. But he fought on, making use of their own weapons against them, and hurling these into the crowd, he was bound, as may well be supposed, to find some mark every time.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Finally, when he was overwhelmed with missiles and had a great number of wounds in many parts of his body, and one in particular inflicted by a spear which, passing straight through one of his buttocks above the hip-joint, weakened him with the pain and impeded his steps, he heard those behind him shouting out that the greater part of the bridge was broken down. Thereupon he leaped with his arms into the river and swimming across the stream with great difficulty (for the current, being divided by the piles, ran swift and formed large eddies), he emerged upon the shore without having lost any of his arms in swimming.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Roman Antiquities of Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Book 4, published in Vol. III  of the Loeb Classical Library edition, 1940](http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Dionysius_of_Halicarnassus/5B*.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;### Polybius&#xA;&#xA;&gt;  It is narrated that when Horatius Cocles was engaged in combat with two of the enemy at the far end of the bridge over the Tiber that lies in the front of the town, he saw large reinforcements coming up to help the enemy, and fearing lest they should force the passage and get into town, he turned round and called to those behind him to retire and cut the bridge with all speed. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; His order was obeyed, and while they were cutting the bridge, he stood to his ground receiving many wounds, and arrested the attack of the enemy who were less astonished at his physical strength than at his endurance and courage.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The bridge once cut, the enemy were prevented from attacking; and Cocles, plunging into the river in full armour as he was, deliberately sacrificed his life,2 regarding the safety of his country and the glory which in future would attach to his name as of more importance than his present existence and the years of life which remained to him. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Such, if I am not wrong, is the eager emulation of achieving noble deeds engendered in the Roman youth by their institutions.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Histories of Polybius, Book 6, published in Vol. III of the Loeb Classical Library edition, 1922 thru 1927](http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Polybius/6*.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21245" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="689" RevisionGUID="a53cd829-5243-49c1-b52c-6430b1ccafe8" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In *[Culhwch and Olwen](http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/culhwch.html)*, King Kilydd's wife, Goleuddydd, dies in childbirth, leaving behind the king's only son. She tells him to go forth and remarry once two briar blossoms bloom on her grave, and he does so when the blossoms appear seven years later.&#xA;&#xA;He finds a maiden to marry, kills her husband (another king), and plans to marry her. Then something curious happens (dramatic emphasis mine).&#xA;&gt; On a certain day, as the lady walked abroad, she came to the house of an old crone that dwelt in the town, and that had no tooth in her head. And the queen said to her, &quot;Old woman, tell me that which I shall ask thee, for the love of Heaven. Where are the children of the man who has carried me away by violence?&quot; &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Said the crone, &quot;He has not children.&quot; &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Said the queen, &quot;Woe is me, that I should have come to one who is childless!&quot; &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Then said the hag, &quot;Thou needest not lament on account of that, for there is a prediction that he shall have an heir by thee, and by none other. Moreover, be not sorrowful, for he has one son.&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The lady returned home with joy; and she asked her consort, **&quot;Wherefore hast thou concealed thy children from me?&quot;**&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The king said, &quot;I will do so no longer.&quot; And he sent messengers for his son, and he was brought to the Court.&#xA;&#xA;I'm somewhat confused by the fact that the crone at first says that Kilydd has no children, then tells his new wife the truth. Even more puzzling, though, is that the king concealed his son.&#xA;&#xA;My question is the same as the unnamed wife's: Why did Kilydd hide his son from her?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21246" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="673" RevisionGUID="20471c92-71b9-4e76-b010-c42ee15701a9" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Bendigeidfran's head was one of the Three Fortunate concealments (emphasis mine): &#xA;&#xA;&gt; 'Shame on my beard,' said he 'if I don't open the door and find out whether it is true what is said about it. [So] he opened the door, and looked out to Cornwall and over Aber Henvelen. And when he looked, suddenly everything they had ever lost - loved ones and companions, and all the bad things that had ever happened to them; and most of all the loss of their king - became as clear as if it had been rushing in towards them. And from that moment, they were not able to rest unless they were making for London with the head. However long they were on the road, they came to London, and they buried the head in The White Hill.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; **And that was one of the Three Fortunate concealments when it was buried, and one of the Three Unfortunate Disclosures when it was unearthed**: since no affliction would ever came to this Island from across the sea, as long as the head was in that concealment. That is what this tradition says. Their adventure 'The men who set out to Ireland', is [the name of] that [tale].&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Mabinogi of Branwen](http://www.mabinogi.net/branwen.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;What were the other two Fortunate Concealments? What was their significance, and in what stories do they appear?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21247" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="672" RevisionGUID="190ed451-e591-4742-b804-1d0670373ab2" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The head was placed facing France to protect Britain from Saxon invasion. Ireland, was no longer a concern (emphasis mine): &#xA;&#xA;&gt; 'Shame on my beard,' said he 'if I don't open the door and find out whether it is true what is said about it. [So] he opened the door, and looked out to Cornwall and over Aber Henvelen. And when he looked, suddenly everything they had ever lost - loved ones and companions, and all the bad things that had ever happened to them; and most of all the loss of their king - became as clear as if it had been rushing in towards them. And from that moment, they were not able to rest unless they were making for London with the head. However long they were on the road, they came to London, and they buried the head in The White Hill.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; And that was one of the Three Fortunate concealments when it was buried, and one of the Three Unfortunate Disclosures when it was unearthed: **since no affliction would ever came to this Island from across the sea, as long as the head was in that concealment**. That is what this tradition says. Their adventure 'The men who set out to Ireland', is [the name of] that [tale].&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; **In Ireland, there was no person left alive**, except five pregnant women in a cave in the wilderness of Ireland. And to those five women, after the same amount of time, were born five sons. They raised those five boys until they were fully-grown youths, and they thought about women and desired to take them.  And then, each sleeps willy-nilly with the mother of his companion, and rules the country and inhabits it, and divides it between the five of them. And because of that division, the 'Five Parts of Ireland' are still so called.  And they searched the country, wherever there had been fighting - and found gold and silver, until they became wealthy.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Mabinogi of Branwen](http://www.mabinogi.net/branwen.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21248" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="671" RevisionGUID="72553d3e-8288-4e07-980b-29b50adec5f3" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="After researching on the topic for a considerable amount of time, it seems most of the sources which describe the Neo-Hittite Chimera, do not contain any myths about the creature nor any in-depth details.&#xA;&#xA;Therefore, it leads me to believe what another source said (emphasis mine):&#xA;&gt;&quot;On the [orthostats](http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/43.135.2) at Neo-Hittite sites, **the Chimaera had no narrative context and served only to ward off evil**, but in Greek myth the beast was to be conquered by a hero&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sub&gt;source: http://cuartmuseum.colorado.edu/collection.bak/classics/greekvases/orientalizing.html&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Which means, the Neo-Hittite Chimera was created just to &quot;ward off evil&quot; and hence does not have any myths associated with it." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21249" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="654" RevisionGUID="ff87981c-9a69-410c-9a9f-aaea124796b6" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="I'm not entirely certain this means &quot;born on the moon&quot;. Most texts that I can find refer to Elfland as being subterranean:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The fairyland of the ballad tradition similarly existed in a kind of wilderness, albiet one suffused in preternatural light. As already indicated, Thomas Rhymer's Elfland **was situated in some sort of subterranean locale** wherein 'he saw neither sun nor moon / But heard the roaring of the see'. Likewise, the enchanted wood in 'Tam Lin' lacked solar and lunar illumination: 'Seven days she tarried there/Saw neither sun nor meen'.   &#xA;&gt; ...  &#xA;&gt; Frequent mention is made of the location of the home of the elves in the witch trials, virtually every example placing the fairies **beside or inside hills.** The trial of Lady Fowlis or Katherine Ross in 1590 reported that she 'wald gang in Hillis to speik the elf folk'. In 1615, Jonet Drever was convicted for the 'fostering of ane bairne in the hill of Westray to the fary folk, callit of hir guid nichbouris'. In Shetland, Katherine Jonesdochter, tride in 1616, saw trows on a hill called Greinfaill.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Scottish Fairy Belief: A History; Henderson &amp; Cowan, 40-41](http://books.google.com/books?id=IokHsI7y008C)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;This begs the question, are we even sure what is meant by moon-born? For that, we go to the [OED](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_English_Dictionary) (which actually mentions [King Arthur](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Arthur_(opera))):&#xA;&#xA;&gt; moon-born adj. chiefly poet.    &#xA;&gt; (a) **born under the moon's influence;**  (b) originating from the moon.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Oxford English Dictionary: moon-born](http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/121900?rskey=fAf8Bu&amp;result=1#eid35988663)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Perhaps what is meant here is not &quot;originating from the moon&quot;, but **born under the moon's influence**. This is back up by the else tended to operate at night:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The face of the country, too, might have some effect; as we should naturally attribute a less malicious disposition, and a less frightful appearance, to the **fays who glide by moon-light** through the oaks of Windsor, then those who haunt the solitary heaths and lofty mountains of the North. The fact at least is certain; and it has not escaped a late ingenious traveller, that the character of the Scottish Fairy is more harsh and terrific than that wish is ascribed to the elves of our sister kingdom.   &#xA;&gt; ...   &#xA;&gt; A beautiful reason is assigned by Fletcher for the fays frequenting streams and fountains: He tells us of   &#xA;&gt; &gt; A virtuous well, about whose flowery banks   &#xA;&gt; &gt; The nimble-footed Fairies dance their rounds,   &#xA;&gt; &gt; By the **pale moon-shine,** dipping oftentimes   &#xA;&gt; &gt; Their stolen children, so to make them free   &#xA;&gt; &gt; From dying flesh and dull mortality.   &#xA;&gt; &gt; &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Faithful Shepherdess   &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; It is sometimes accounted unlucky to pass such places, without performing some ceremony to avert the displeasure of the elves.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Book of Scottish Ballads, Etc.; Alexander Whitelaw; 438-439](https://books.google.com/books?id=si1YAAAAcAAJ)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21250" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="641" RevisionGUID="cf81e8fc-ea8b-42ee-ba3a-637949d86efa" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In [the fourth branch of the Mabinogion](http://www.mabinogi.net/math.htm), Lleu Llaw Gyffes revealed to Blodeuedd that he can only be killed in a certain way.&#xA;&gt; 'Will you, for God's sake and mine, tell me by what means you might be killed? Since my memory is a better safeguard than yours.'&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; 'I'll tell you gladly,' he said 'It is not easy,' he continued 'to kill me by a blow . It would be necessary to spend a year making the spear to strike me with - and without making any of it [at any other time] except when one was at mass on Sundays.' &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; 'And is that certain?' she asked.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; 'It's certain, God knows,' he replied 'I cannot be killed inside a house, nor outside,' he continued 'I cannot be killed on horseback or on foot.'&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; 'Aye,' said she '[so] in what way can you be killed?'&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; 'I'll tell you,' he replied. 'By making a bath for me by the side of a river, making a curved, slatted roof over the tub, and thatching that well and without [leaving] any gaps. And bringing a buck,' he continued 'and putting it next to the tub, and me putting one of my feet on the buck's back, and the other one on the side of the tub. Whoever would strike me [while I am] like that would bring about my death.'&#xA;&#xA;Why could Lleu only be killed in this manner? Was it because of the [tyngeds](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tynged) placed upon him by Arianrhod?&#xA;&#xA;The exact details of said tyngeds, as they concern Lleu's ultimate fate, are not revealed earlier in the story." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21251" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="640" RevisionGUID="c5c6d4cb-fd78-4435-b54e-dc4acfa142b0" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="# Not really, no.&#xA;&#xA;[Adam of Bremen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesta_Hammaburgensis_ecclesiae_pontificum) describes a [temple at Uppsala](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_at_Uppsala) to Thor, Odin and Frey:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; xxvi (26) That folk has a very famous temple called Uppsala, situated not far from the city of Sigtuna and Björkö. In this temple, entirely decked out in gold, the people worship the status of their gods in such wise that the mightiest of them, **Thor, occupies a throne in the middle of the chamber; Wotan and Frikko have places on either side....**&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; xxvii (27). **For all their gods** there are appointed priests to offer sacrifices for the people. If plague and famine threaten, a libation is poured to the idol Thor; if war, to Wotan; if marriages are to be celebrated, to Frikko.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [History of the Archibishops of Hamburg-Bremen, Tschan, F.J., 207-208](http://www.amazon.com/History-Archbishops-Hamburg-Bremen-Adam-Bremen/dp/0231125755)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;However, Wikipedia says the existence of this temple is not corroborated by archaelogical evidence. However, there is other evidence supporting the lack of a patron; we have this passage from [*Germania*, by Gaius Cornelius Tacitus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germania_(book)):&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The Germans, however, do not consider it consistent with the grandeur of celestial beings to confine the gods within walls, or to liken them to the form of any human countenance. They consecrate woods and groves, and they apply the names of deities to the abstraction which they see only in spiritual worship.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Germania, Tacitus, 9](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0083:chapter=9&amp;highlight=walls)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;The same source also says that they did not even really have cities (with which to have patron gods):&#xA;&#xA;&gt; It is well known that the nations of Germany have no cities, and that they do not even tolerate closely contiguous dwellings. They live scattered and apart, just as a spring, a meadow, or a wood has attracted them. Their villages they do not arrange in our fashion, with the buildings connected and joined together, but every person surrounds his dwelling with an open space, either as a precaution against the disasters of fire, or because they do not know how to build.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Germania, Tacitus, 16](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0083%3Achapter%3D16)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Further, it seems that the worship sites are distributed all over Scandinavia for the same gods:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; *vé* (ON, 'shrine'). The term derives from Germanic *\*wtha* and designates heathen shrines and sacred places in the widest sense of the word. Even the homes of the gods in mythological poetry of the *Edda* (*Vafthruthnismol*, 51) are called *vé*, and the word occurs repeatedly in skaldic poetry....&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Place-names reveal the wide distribution of shrines with the name *vé* in Scandinavia: in Sweden there are more than 80 place-names based on *-vé*, 18 of them found with the name of the god Ullr, 16 with Skaði, 8 with Freyr, but only 4 with Odin and 2 with Thor. In addition to this there are a large number of place-names based on *-vé* which use geographical elements (e.g. Visby). In Denmark, on the other hand, all 5 place names based on *-vé* are combined with Odin (e.g. Odense). Most of the few Norwegian place names called Ve are not compound, and in Iceland there are none whatsoever.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [A Dictionary of Modern Mythology, Simek, 355](http://www.amazon.com/Dictionary-Northern-Mythology-Rudolf-Simek/dp/0859915131)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Given the existence of temples to multiple gods at once, the lack of cities throughout the region with which to be patron cities, and the existence of many shrines to the same gods distributed all over scandinavia, it doesn't seem as if there were any patron **cities** or **regions** to one particular god; though there were smaller shrines and geographic formations that were dedicated to one god." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21252" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="636" RevisionGUID="3caef67a-5b6a-4016-8b2c-30ff08ee4b73" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The actual lyric is:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; I call you all  &#xA;&gt; To Woden's Hall,  &#xA;&gt; Your temples round  &#xA;&gt; With ivy bound  &#xA;&gt; In goblets crown'd,  &#xA;&gt; And plenteous bowls of burnish'd gold,  &#xA;&gt; Where ye shall laugh  &#xA;&gt; And dance and quaff  &#xA;&gt; The juice that makes the Britons bold&#xA;&#xA;To figure this out, what is Woden's Hall? The simplest source for this is Wikipedia - though it's corroborated in many places:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; In wider Germanic mythology and paganism, Odin was known in Old English as Wóden, in Old Saxon as Wōden, and in Old High German as Wuotan or Wodan, all stemming from the reconstructed Proto-Germanic theonym *wōđanaz.&#xA;&#xA;So, Woden's Hall is almost certainly [Valhalla](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valhalla), a hall where the fiercest Nordic warriors would sit around waiting for [Ragnarok](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar%C3%B6k). So what is Valhalla like, as far magic drink is like? For that, we go to the Poetic Edda:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; 23. Five hundred doors | and forty there are,  &#xA;&gt; I ween, in Valhall's walls;  &#xA;&gt; Eight hundred fighters | through one door fare  &#xA;&gt; When to war with the wolf they go.  &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; 24. Five hundred rooms | and forty there are  &#xA;&gt; I ween, in Bilskirnir built;  &#xA;&gt; Of all the homes | whose roofs I beheld,  &#xA;&gt; My son's the greatest meseemed.  &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; 25. Heithrun is the goat | who stands by Heerfather's hall,  &#xA;&gt; And the branches of Lærath she bites;  &#xA;&gt; **The pitcher she fills | with the fair, clear mead,  &#xA;&gt; Ne'er fails the foaming drink.**   &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Poetic Edda, translated by Henry Adams Bellows, p. 94](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe06.htm) &lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;So: the juice that makes the Briton's bold is probably referring to the mead served by the magic goat Heithrun in Odin's Valhalla." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21253" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="635" RevisionGUID="4ca643b2-10a0-42d3-99bb-b39201431861" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="## The name El was a generic name.&#xA;&#xA;According to the Wikipedia article on [El](), &quot;El&quot; was a generic name for a god, usually a supreme god. In that sense, &quot;El&quot; functions very much like &quot;God&quot; does in the English language.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; ʾĒl ...is a Northwest Semitic word meaning &quot;god&quot; or &quot;deity&quot;, or referring (as a proper name) to any one of multiple major Ancient Near East deities.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Specific deities known as El or Il include the supreme god of the Canaanite religion,&lt;sup&gt;[[4](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)#cite_note-FOOTNOTEMatthews200479-4)]&lt;/sup&gt; the supreme god of the Mesopotamian Semites in the pre-Sargonic period,&lt;sup&gt;[[5](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)#CITEREFGelb1961)]&lt;/sup&gt; and the God of the Hebrew Bible.&#xA;&#xA;[There are many names of God](https://christianity.stackexchange.com/a/706/58) in the Bible, and many start with &quot;El&quot;. Now, the Legend of Keret is an Ugaritic story, whereas the Wikipedia article and the Bible talk about Canaan. So, it's worth noting that&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The foundations of the Bronze Age city Ugarit were divided into quarters. In the north-east quarter of the walled enclosure, the remains of three significant religious buildings were discovered, including two temples (of the gods Baal Hadad and Dagon) and a building referred to as the library or the high priest's house. Within these structures atop the acropolis numerous invaluable mythological texts were found. These texts have provided the basis for understanding of the Canaanite mythological world and religion.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; ~ [Wikipedia: Ugaritic Religion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugarit#Ugaritic_religion)&#xA;&#xA;&quot;[Baal](https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=baal&amp;qs_version=NIV)&quot; and &quot;[Dagon](https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=dagon&amp;qs_version=NIV)&quot; both appear in the Old Testament as Canaanite/Philistine/pagan gods. So Ugarite and Canaan are closely related.&#xA;&#xA;## El in the Legend of Keret is *not* the same as El in the Bible.&#xA;&#xA;As [durron597 quoted in his answer](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/602/18),&#xA;&#xA;&gt; [I]n the Ugaritic texts the god El is revealed to be wholly benevolent in nature, whereas Yahweh has a fierce as well as a kind side.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; ~ [Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan, John Day, 13-14](http://books.google.com/books?id=y-gfwlltlRwC)&#xA;&#xA;Indeed, looking at the original text, near the end this god El is referred to as&#xA;&#xA;&gt; the Kindly One, El Benign&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; ~ [Ugaritic Myths, Epics, and Legends](http://www.ericlevy.com/Revel/Intro2/ANET%20Ugarit%20Epics.PDF), p 148&#xA;&#xA;I have never heard Yahweh/the Christian God (let's use &quot;Jehovah&quot;) called &quot;benign&quot;. He is *benevolent*, yes, but that's not all there is to Him. There are several more quite significant differences that further distinguish &quot;El&quot; and Yahweh/Jehovah, including but not limited to:&#xA;&#xA; - King Keret is El's son. Yahweh doesn't have a son.&#xA; - King Keret almost died. Jehovah's son wasn't mortal until his birth around 3-4 A.D., give or take 2 years. These myths are separated by 1200-1500 years. (Plus, Jehovah's son *did* die [and was resurrected, but that's beside the point].)&#xA; - There are multiple positive/neutral references to gods (such as Baal, Asherah, and Ashtoreth) in the Legend of Keret that are strongly condemned in the Old Testament.&#xA;&#xA;Even if the god &quot;El&quot; referred to in the Legend of Keret and the god that became known as Yahweh used to be the same, so to speak, by the time any of the books in the Bible were written, they were certainly different gods." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21254" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="633" RevisionGUID="6e95a16d-f47d-410a-9608-090e6cbe4719" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="I haven't been able to find any reference for fairy men marrying human women, or the existence of full-sized fairy men *at all*.&#xA;&#xA;Note that the Tylwyth Teg only ever kidnapped human boys, not girls. This seems to support this (emphasis mine):&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Mr. John Jones speaks very little English, and Mr. John Rees, of the Council School, acted as our interpreter. This is the testimony:--&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Pygmy-sized 'Tylwyth Teg'.--'I was born and bred where there was tradition that the Tylwyth Teg lived in holes in the hills, and that none of these Tylwyth Teg was taller than three to four feet. It was a common idea that many of the Tylwyth Teg, forming in a ring, would dance and sing out on the mountain-sides, or on the plain, and that if children should meet with them at such a time they would lose their way and never get out of the ring. If the Tylwyth Teg fancied any particular child they would always keep that child, taking off its clothes and putting them on one of their own children, which was then left in its place. **They took only boys, never girls.'**&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Human-sized 'Tylwyth Teg'.--'A special sort of Tylwyth Teg used to come out of lakes and dance, and their *line looks enticed **young men** to follow them back into the lakes, and there marry one of them. If the husband wished to leave the lake he had to go without his fairy wife.* This sort of Tylwyth Teg were as big as ordinary people; and they were often seen riding out of the lakes and back again on horses.'&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Fairy-Faith in Celtic Countries, By W. Y. Evans-Wentz, 148](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/ffcc/ffcc124.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;This passage, coupled with the fact that I haven't been able to find *any* stories to the contrary, suggests to me that there are no male fairies to marry human women." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21255" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="722" RevisionGUID="e7cb0132-d718-4a97-a547-7b803ce4b820" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In Geoffrey of Monmouth's [*Vita Merlini*](http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/merlini.html), Merlin discussed past (and future) British history. He goes on at great length about the time of Arthur, describing some of his later exploits after defeating &quot;a pagan people from Angla&quot; with the help of Hoel, king of Brittany:&#xA;&gt; &quot;Soon after this struggle he subdued the Scots and, changing the direction of his campaign, the war-like Irish. He overcame all nations in the expeditions he led. He brought into subjection both the Norwegians who lived far across the broad seas and the Danes whom he sought out with his dreaded fleet.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &quot;He brought the people of France under his rule after killing Frollo, to whose care the country had been committed by those in power at Rome. He even fought and defeated the Romans themselves when they were preparing a campaign against his kingdom. He killed the procurator Lucius Hiberius, who had become the colleague of Emperor Leo and had come on the Senate's orders to bring the French territories back under its authority.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &quot;During this time the faithless and foolhardy guardian of our realm, Modred, had begun to take over the kingdom and to carry on an unlawful love affair with the king's wife. The king, it is said, had entrusted the kingdom and the queen to Modred's care when about to leave on a campaign against his enemies overseas. When the report of this great crime reached his ears, he gave up his intended campaign and returned home, landing with many thousands of men. He attacked his nephew and drove him abroad in flight. There this man of treachery gathered Saxon troops from all quarters and began a battle against his prince. But he was tricked by the evil race on whom he had relied in his large enterprise, and he was killed.&#xA;&#xA;And, of course, after being taken to Avalon soon after being wounded during the battle in which he killed his nephew,&#xA;&gt;! Arthur died.&#xA;&#xA;Merlin then talks about how &quot;the two sons of Modred&quot; fought each other for the crown and killed each other, which made the time ripe for Arthur's nephew, Constantine, to become king, shortly after Arthur's death.&#xA;&#xA;Merlin is then interrupted by retainers, and never (it appears) finishes his story - if he intended to say any more, that is.&#xA;&#xA;Obviously, Arthur's empire did not last. Did Geoffrey of Monmouth ever elaborate on how long it lasted?&#xA;&#xA;As a follow-up question, does he specify why it crumbled (though I think the answer is rather clear)? &#xA;&#xA;---&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Supposedly, the story is also written in Geoffrey's *Historia Regum Britanniae*, though I have not yet read it.&lt;/sup&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21256" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="935" RevisionGUID="2c53206d-4240-4fc8-aaf5-009e1416bf9f" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In [Roman Mars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Mars)'s podcast, [99% Invisible](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99%25_Invisible), in *[Episode 79: Symphony of Sirens, Revisited](http://99percentinvisible.org/episode/episode-79-symphony-of-sirens-revisited/)*, from 00:23-01:00, Mars recounts the Sirens scene in Homer's *The Odyssey*:&#xA;&#xA;&gt;In Homer's Odyssey, there's a story where Odysseus and his men are traveling near an area where sirens are known to inhabit. And Odysseus knows that if he hears the sirens' song, his ship is going to sink. But he still wants to hear what they sound like, so he comes up with a plan: Odysseus has his men tie him to the mast so that he can't take control of the ship. Then Odysseus has his men fill their own ears with beeswax so they can't hear anything.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;The plan works: Odysseus gets to hear the sirens' call, his men don't, and they sail on to safety, with Odysseus *pleading* with his crew to crash the boat the whole way.&#xA;&#xA;What I'm confused about is that Mars says that&#xA;&#xA;1. Odysseus wanted to hear what the Sirens sound like.&#xA;2. He told his men to put beeswax in their ears.&#xA;&#xA;But I don't remember **ever** learning that he actually *wanted* to hear what the Sirens sound like, nor do I remember any beeswax being involved. Which is the original? Or, are there multiple versions of the *Odyssey*, all just as valid?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21257" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="937" RevisionGUID="a84e997d-9273-41b4-a5a0-2431438b7f02" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In chapter 29 of the Gylfaginning, Snorri Sturluson calls Vidar &quot;the silent asa&quot;: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Vidar is the name of the silent asa. He has a very thick shoe, and he is the strongest next after Thor. From him the gods have much help in all hard tasks.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Gylfaginning (The Fooling Of Gylfe), Prose Edda by Snorri Sturluson](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning), Wikisource&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;The one source I checked claims we don't know why that is: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Elsewhere, Vidar is called the “silent god,” although no explanation for this epithet is given.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Vidar, Norse Mythology for Smart People](http://norse-mythology.org/vidar/)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Is that true? And if so, do we at least have any plausible theories for Vidar's silence?&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21258" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="950" RevisionGUID="9dd311f1-59db-4f01-9e78-92ffeba3c1dc" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="I saw a &quot;story from Greek mythology&quot; referenced in my morning paper, and I'd never heard it before.&#xA;&#xA;&gt;A woman came to the River Styx and asked to be taken across into that dark land. [The ferryman] Charon reminded her that the dead were offered the option of drinking from the River Lethe, whose waters removed all memory of previous existence.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;She wanted to know, “Will I forget how I have suffered?” Charon replied, “Yes, but you will forget how you have rejoiced.” Then she asked, “Will I forget my failures?” Patiently, Charon responded, “Yes, and your victories as well.” Finally, she wanted to know, “Will I forget how I have been hated?” “Yes,” said Charon, “but also you will forget how you have been loved.” After a few moments of reflection, the woman decided to leave the waters of Lethe untasted.&#xA;&#xA;This story is entirely new to me, and the only references I can find are other people saying &quot;There's this Greek myth...&quot;&#xA;&#xA;Is this in fact an actual myth? What's the origin, or at least what's the oldest version recorded?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21259" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1299" RevisionGUID="b4f6ad3f-39d4-49fb-84f0-8853f0642cac" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="&gt; And where we had thought to find an abomination we shall find a God.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Where we had thought to slay another we shall slay ourselves. &#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xA;&gt; Where we had thought to travel outward we shall come to the center of our own existence.&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xA;&gt; And where we had thought to be alone we shall be with all the world.&#xA;&#xA;[Link](http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/37475-the-hero-path-we-have-not-even-to-risk-the)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21260" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1274" RevisionGUID="fe66a813-e9df-4f51-a14f-f2d844909b44" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In Tablet XI of the Epic of Gilgamesh, Uta-napishti relays the story of the Deluge: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Said Uta-napishti to him, to Gilgamesh:&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; 'Let me disclose, Gilgamesh, a matter most secret,  &#xA;&gt; to you will tell a mystery of gods. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; 'The town of Shuruppak, a city well known to you,  &#xA;&gt; which stands on the banks of the river Euphrates:  &#xA;&gt; this city was old - the gods once were in it -  &#xA;&gt; when the great gods decided to send down the Deluge.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Epic of Gilgamesh, translated by Andrew George, Penguin Books&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Why? What cause had the gods to destroy mankind?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21261" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1266" RevisionGUID="c924cf51-1574-4780-8f85-e3493836554a" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In Tablet V of the Epic of Gilgamesh, Gilgamesh and Enkidu fight the monstrous Humbaba. After the fight is over the defeated Humbada pleads for his life, unsuccessfully: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; 'Now, Enkidu, [my] release lies with you:  &#xA;&gt; tell Gilgamesh to spare me my life!' &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Enkidu opened his mouth to speak,  &#xA;&gt; saying to Gilgamesh:&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; 'My friend, Humbaba who guards the Forest of [Cedar]  &#xA;&gt; finish him, slay him, do away with his power!  &#xA;&gt; Humbaba who guards the Forest [of Cedar]  &#xA;&gt; finish him, slay him, do away with his power,  &#xA;&gt; before Enlil the foremost hears what we do!  &#xA;&gt; The [great] gods will take against us in anger,  &#xA;&gt; Enlil in Nippur, Shamash in [Larsa] ... ,  &#xA;&gt; Establish for ever [a fame] that endures,  &#xA;&gt; how Gilgamesh [slew ferocious] Humbaba!'&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Epic of Gilgamesh, translated by Andrew George, Penguin Books&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Why do the two heroes risk the wrath of Enlil, a deity far superior to their protector Shamash? Gilgamesh had already added to his fame by defeating Humbada, why was slaining him necessary? &#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21262" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1265" RevisionGUID="7fcabfd8-7b1a-4b12-bf5f-52464628472e" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In Tablet I of the The Epic of Gilgamesh, Seven Sages are said to have laid the foundations of Uruk: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Climb Uruk's wall and walk back and forth!  &#xA;&gt; Survey its foundations, examine the brickwork!  &#xA;&gt;  Were its bricks not fired in an oven?  &#xA;&gt; Did the Seven Sages not lay its foundations? &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Epic of Gilgamesh, translated by Andrew George, Penguin Books&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Who were they?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21263" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1261" RevisionGUID="321d71ed-a464-4282-a129-1b0f964534f0" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Have you heard of the Thompson Motif Index? It's a huge 6 volume index of folklore from various cultures, organized by motif. [It's also available for free online.][1]&#xA;&#xA;Looking at the index, there are a lot of entries for &quot;water spirit as woman.&quot; I've listed the entires below:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; F420.1.2. †F420.1.2. **Water-spirit as woman** (water-nymph, water-nix). (Cf. †F423.1.) *Type 316; *BP III 322; *Fb “nøkke” II 725ab.--England, Ireland, Wales: Baughman, Ireland: Beal VII 11; Norse: MacCulloch Eddic 261; Finnish-Swedish: Wessman 55 Nos. 468--469; Finnish: Aarne FFC XXXIII 44 No. 58; Germanic: Meyer Germanen 199ff., 202ff., De la Saussaye 323; Slavic: Máchal 254f., 271f.; Estonian: Aarne FFC XXV 126 No. 58; Livonian: Loorits FFC LXVI 42 No. 30; Armenian: Ananikian 84; Japanese: Ikeda.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; F420.1.2.1. †F420.1.2.1. **Water-maidens are of unusual beauty**. German: Ebermann Elbsagen 115 (No. 66), Meier I 67 (No. 1); French: Sébillot France II 196, 345; Icelandic: Boberg.&#xA;&#xA;However, there are also a lot of entries for &quot;Water-spirit as man.&quot; For example:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; F420.1.1. †F420.1.1. Water-spirit as man. Takelau (New Zealand):&#xA;&gt; Beckwith Myth 150.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; F420.1.1.1. †F420.1.1.1. Water-spirit appears as handsome man. German:&#xA;&gt; Ebermann Elbsagen 93 (No. 55); French: Sébillot France II 409;&#xA;&gt; Finnish-Swedish: Wessman 57 No. 487.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; F420.1.1.2. †F420.1.1.2. Water-spirit appears as black man. German:&#xA;&gt; Knoop 89 (No. 145), Sommert 108.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; F420.1.1.3. †F420.1.1.3. Water-spirit as small gray man. Has green&#xA;&gt; eyes and gray hair. Tobler 99.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; F420.1.1.4. †F420.1.1.4. Water-spirit as man clothed in white and&#xA;&gt; accompanied by a dozen attendants. Chinese: Werner 182.&#xA;&#xA;Finally, there are equally as many entries for &quot;Water-spirit as animal&quot;. There are actually too many examples for me to quote in this answer, but some examples are:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; F420.1.3.2. †F420.1.3.2. Water-spirit as fish. Tobler 97; Icelandic: Boberg, German: Henne-Am Rhyn 113 (No. 216), Ebermann Elbsagen 74 (No. 39); French: Sébillot France II 196.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;F420.1.3.3. †F420.1.3.3. Water-spirit as horse. England, Scotland, Ireland: Baughman; Icelandic: Boberg; Danish: Kristensen Danske Sagn (1893) 163ff., (1928) 112ff.; Norwegian: Solheim Register 17; Swedish: Hartmann 27; German: Künzig Badische 31 (No. 87), Karstens Sagen 79.&#xA;&#xA;Finally, there is also &quot;water spirit in abnormal form.&quot; Again, there are too many entries for me to list here, but a few examples are...&#xA;&#xA;&gt; F420.1.4.5. †F420.1.4.5. Water-spirits with human body and webbed feet and hands. Tobler 98; German: Henne-Am Rhyn 113, Pröhle Deutsche Sagen 153 (No. 119); French: Sébillot France II 403.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; F420.1.4.8. †F420.1.4.8. Water-spirits with green teeth. England: Baughman; German: Schöppner I 219--223, Schultze-Gallara 23; French: Sébillot France II 343 (green eyes).&#xA;&#xA;**So no, I wouldn't say that there is a &quot;preponderance of seductive water nymphs in mythology.&quot;** Women might be slightly more popular, but men, animals, and &quot;abnormal forms&quot; are also significantly represented.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.ualberta.ca/~urban/Projects/English/Motif_Index.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21264" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1254" RevisionGUID="de98e08d-d76e-46f9-a9be-8c10d3021e65" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In Tablet X of [The Epic of Gilgamesh][3], Gilgamesh smashes the stone men that crew Ur-shanabi's boat.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; They  took  fright, the Stone [Ones,  who  crewed] the  boat,  &#xA;&gt; who  were  not  [harmed  by  the Waters]  of  Death  .  &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; . . . . . . . . . the wide ocean,  &#xA;&gt; at  the waters  ...  he stayed [not his hand]:  &#xA;&gt; he smashed [them in his fury, he  threw  them] in the river.&#xA;&#xA;This ends up being a mistake, because the stone men are necessary to sail the boat:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Said Ur-shanabi  to  him,  to  Gilgamesh:  &#xA;&gt; 'Your  own  hands, O Gilgamesh, have prevented  [your  crossing:]  &#xA;&gt; you smashed the Stone Ones,  threw  [them in  the  river,]  &#xA;&gt; the Stone Ones are smashed,  and  the  pine  is  not  [stripped.]&#xA;&#xA;Why does Gilgamesh smash the stone men in the first place? Is there some sort of symbolism or meaning associated with this act?&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://redd.it/3xji8p&#xA;  [2]: https://www.reddit.com/r/mythology/&#xA;  [3]: https://web.archive.org/web/20150906105733/http://www.cidmod.org/sidurisadvice/Gilgamesh.pdf&#xA;&#xA;--- &#xA;&#xA;*This question was [originally asked][1] in [reddit's mythology subreddit][2]. It hasn't received an answer yet. If we could answer it before reddit can, that would be pretty cool.*" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21265" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1233" RevisionGUID="e3ae0386-9890-4a31-8c0a-ccafe1466d25" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The staff carried by Hermes/Mercury, which known as the Caduceus, is one of my favorite symbols. For those that are visual thinkers I have pictured it below:&#xA;&#xA;[![The Caduceus][1]][1]&#xA;&#xA;I am planning on getting a tattoo of the Caduceus in the near future. Before I ink my body with the symbol, I wanted to know what, if any, negative connotations are associated with the symbol? &#xA;&#xA;I am familiar with the story of Mercury and Larunda (Though I have never read the actual story) and how sometimes this is interpreted as rape. I don't know if that story is Greek and Roman, or just Roman; an answer to that question would also be a helpful tidbit of knowledge. &#xA;&#xA;However, my main reason for asking this question is that I would like to learn if there are any other negative connotations connected to this symbol. &#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/uZULw.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21266" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1219" RevisionGUID="39afdd85-2a50-44d9-9373-c480c037a5cd" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="**Are there any other mythological beings that got a replacement metal arm, other than Nuada, Lugh Llaw Ereint, and Sigurd?**&#xA;&#xA;I found these three from the Mythology section in [TV Tropes](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArtificialLimbs):&#xA;&#xA;&gt; - The Battle of Magh Tuireadh relates how Nuada, king of the Tuatha Dé Danann, lost an arm in combat and received a functional replacement crafted of silver.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; - The same tale is ascribed to Lugh Llaw Ereint in the Welsh mythological cycle Y Mabinogion and may spring from the same Ur-Root. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; - There is a variation of a Norse myth involving Sigurd and his battle with the dragon Fafnir. During the fight his hand is bitten off, but he afterwards receives a fully articulate metal replacement with intricate wiring in place of tendons.&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21267" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1217" RevisionGUID="7b9831a0-c2ca-4deb-89b1-4ad0bc02e3a9" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Different sources imply different things. In some, the mother seems to be [the unnamed sister of Njörðr](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sister-wife_of_Nj%C3%B6r%C3%B0r). In [the Ynglinga Saga](http://omacl.org/Heimskringla/ynglinga.html), Snorri Strurluson writes&#xA;&gt; While Njord was with the Vanaland people he had taken his own sister in marriage, for that was allowed by their law; and their children were Frey and Freya. But among the Asaland people it was forbidden to intermarry with such near relations.&#xA;&#xA;The same thing is implied in the [Lokasenna](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe10.htm), when Loki claims&#xA;&gt; &quot;Give heed now, Njorth, | nor boast too high,  &#xA; No longer I hold it hid;  &#xA; With thy sister hadst thou | so fair a son,  &#xA; Thus hadst thou no worse a hope.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;However, the [Gylfaginning](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre04.htm) implies that the mother was indeed Skadi:&#xA;&gt; Njördr has to wife the woman called Skadi, daughter of Thjazi the giant. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; . . .&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Njördr in Nóatún begot afterward two children: the son was called Freyr, and the daughter Freyja; they were fair of face and mighty.&#xA;&#xA;The claim that the mother is [Nerthus](http://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/the-vanir-gods-and-goddesses/nerthus/) seems to be mainly based on etymology, and not on any specific writings." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21268" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1208" RevisionGUID="28ae0e3c-605e-45b0-9e68-4af0bc0e98fc" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="A prime example of a mother of monsters from Greek mythology is Echidna: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Men say that Typhaon the terrible, outrageous and lawless, was joined in love to her, the maid with glancing eyes. So she conceived and brought forth fierce offspring; first she bare Orthus the hound of Geryones, and then again she bare a second, a monster not to be overcome and that may not be described, Cerberus who eats raw flesh, the brazen-voiced hound of Hades, fifty-headed, relentless and strong. And again she bore a third, the evil-minded Hydra of Lerna, whom the goddess, white-armed Hera nourished, being angry beyond measure with the mighty Heracles. And her Heracles, the son of Zeus, of the house of Amphitryon, together with warlike Iolaus, destroyed with the unpitying sword through the plans of Athene the spoil-driver. She was the mother of Chimaera who breathed raging fire, a creature fearful, great, swift-footed and strong, who had three heads, one of a grim-eyed lion; in her hinderpart, a dragon; and in her middle, a goat, breathing forth a fearful blast of blazing fire. Her did Pegasus and noble Bellerophon slay; but Echidna was subject in love to Orthus and brought forth the deadly Sphinx which destroyed the Cadmeans, and the Nemean lion, which Hera, the good wife of Zeus, brought up and made to haunt the hills of Nemea, a plague to men. There he preyed upon the tribes of her own people and had power over Tretus of Nemea and Apesas: yet the strength of stout Heracles overcame him.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Theogony of Hesiod, translated by Hugh G. Evelyn-White][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;You may find [a list of her offspring][2] on Wikipedia.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echidna_(mythology)#List_of_principle_offspring" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21269" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1207" RevisionGUID="a4fe15fa-eff9-4a0c-af63-99ae8bc91a67" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Hugh G. Evelyn-White's hypothesis is that the authors of the non Homeric poems were reasonably aware of Homer's works. This is summarized in the introduction of *Hesiod, The Homeric Hymns, and Homerica*: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; **The Trojan Cycle**&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Six epics with the &quot;Iliad&quot; and the &quot;Odyssey&quot; made up the Trojan Cycle—The &quot;Cyprian Lays&quot;, the &quot;Iliad&quot;, the &quot;Aethiopis&quot;, the &quot;Little Iliad&quot;, the &quot;Sack of Troy&quot;, the &quot;Returns&quot;, the &quot;Odyssey&quot;, and the &quot;Telegony&quot;.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; It has been assumed in the foregoing pages that the poems of the Trojan Cycle are later than the Homeric poems; but, as the opposite view has been held, the reasons for this assumption must now be given. 1) Tradition puts Homer and the Homeric poems proper back in the ages before chronological history began, and at the same time assigns the purely Cyclic poems to definite authors who are dated from the first Olympiad (776 B.C.) downwards. This tradition cannot be purely arbitrary. 2) The Cyclic poets (as we can see from the abstract of Proclus) were careful not to trespass upon ground already occupied by Homer. Thus, when we find that in the &quot;Returns&quot; all the prominent Greek heroes except Odysseus are accounted for, we are forced to believe that the author of this poem knew the &quot;Odyssey&quot; and judged it unnecessary to deal in full with that hero's adventures. In a word, the Cyclic poems are 'written round' the &quot;Iliad&quot; and the &quot;Odyssey&quot;. 3) The general structure of these epics is clearly imitative. As M.M. Croiset remark, the abusive Thersites in the &quot;Aethiopis&quot; is clearly copied from the Thersites of the &quot;Iliad&quot;; in the same poem Antilochus, slain by Memnon and avenged by Achilles, is obviously modelled on Patroclus. 4) The geographical knowledge of a poem like the &quot;Returns&quot; is far wider and more precise than that of the &quot;Odyssey&quot;. 5) Moreover, in the Cyclic poems epic is clearly degenerating morally—if the expression may be used. The chief greatness of the &quot;Iliad&quot; is in the character of the heroes Achilles and Hector rather than in the actual events which take place: in the Cyclic writers facts rather than character are the objects of interest, and events are so packed together as to leave no space for any exhibition of the play of moral forces. All these reasons justify the view that the poems with which we now have to deal were later than the &quot;Iliad&quot; and &quot;Odyssey&quot;, and if we must recognize the possibility of some conventionality in the received dating, we may feel confident that it is at least approximately just.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Project Gutenberg EBook of Hesiod, The Homeric Hymns, and Homerica, by Homer and Hesiod](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/348/348-h/348-h.htm#link2H_4_0012)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xA;&#xA;I believe this remains the prevalent theory, although the matter is far from settled. And with the evidence as lacking and fragmented as they are, I'm afraid it won't be settled any time soon.  &#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21270" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1205" RevisionGUID="498b5ffc-1172-44f7-9973-b75d47fb953c" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="According to Hesiod, the Erinyes were born of Gaia (Earth) when she received the blood of Ouranos (Sky): &#xA;&#xA;&gt; And Heaven came, bringing on night and longing for love, and he lay about Earth spreading himself full upon her. Then the son from his ambush stretched forth his left hand and in his right took the great long sickle with jagged teeth, and swiftly lopped off his own father's members and cast them away to fall behind him. And not vainly did they fall from his hand; for all the bloody drops that gushed forth Earth received, and as the seasons moved round she bore the strong Erinyes and the great Giants with gleaming armour, holding long spears in their hands and the Nymphs whom they call Meliae all over the boundless earth.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hesiod, Theogony](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D173)&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21271" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1105" RevisionGUID="019e07bd-a096-4a3e-a358-5c341737a8c6" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In this case, Western culture is the outlier. As [Simon explained in the comments][1], serpents feature prominently in many non-western mythologies:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; In Australia the Aboriginals believe that a Rainbow Serpent created the landscape, embodied the spirit of the fresh water and punished lawbreakers. In Cambodian Mythology, they believe the Khmer People to have been born out of union of Indian and Nagas or Serpents. For Hindus it represents rebirth due to the casting off of it's skin and being 'reborn'. Search for Nāgas for more Hindu myths, they feature prominently in several myths. Koreans fear the snake and worship it as a god. In Mesoamerica we have Quetzalcoatl who was a 'feathered serpent' patron of arts, crafts and merchants.&#xA;&#xA;Why is this? To answer that question, I'm going to take a look at the epic of Gilgamesh, which is from a similar region as the bible. Here's a description of a snake from the epic:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; 'This plant, Ur-shanabi, is the &quot;Plant of Heartbeat&quot;,  &#xA;&gt; with it a man can regain his vigour.  &#xA;&gt; To Uruk-the-Sheepfold 1 will take it,  &#xA;&gt; to an ancient will feed some and put the plant to the test! &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; 'Its name shall be &quot;Old Man Grown Young&quot;,  &#xA;&gt; I will eat it myself, and be again as I was in my youth!'   &#xA;&gt; At twenty leagues they broke bread,  &#xA;&gt; at thirty leagues they stopped for the night.  &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Gilgamesh found a pool whose water was cool,  &#xA;&gt; down he went into it, to bathe in the water.  &#xA;&gt; Of the plant's fragrance a snake caught scent,  &#xA;&gt; came up [in silence], and bore the plant off.  &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; As it turned away it sloughed its skin.  &#xA;&gt; Then Gilgamesh sat down and wept, &#xA;&#xA;([Epic of Gilgamesh][2])&#xA;&#xA;To summarize: Gilgamesh has a plant that grants him immortality, but the plant is taken from him by a snake. The snake then becomes immortal, as snakes can &quot;shed their skin&quot; and thus be reborn. &#xA;&#xA;I'm not trying to suggest that Gilgamesh is a precursor to the bible, or that Gilgamesh represents every other myth that features serpents, but it is illuminating as an example of how other cultures viewed serpents. It's clear from the epic of Gilgamesh that snakes are strongly associated with rebirth, immortality, and life. I hope that goes some way towards explaining why serpents aren't portrayed as &quot;evil&quot; in other cultures.&#xA; &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1099/why-do-several-myths-portray-snakes-as-good-things#comment3687_1099&#xA;  [2]: http://www.cidmod.org/sidurisadvice/Gilgamesh.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21272" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1095" RevisionGUID="d03eeeda-74d9-4b47-a332-7d3fdf52b836" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The generic name for this would be [Night Hag][1]. There is sleep paralysis related folklore worldwide, some of which gave birth to what developed into the modern concept of the [nightmare][2]. I could not find any solid reference for the [cat][3] story.&#xA;&#xA;Your mice can be found there:&#xA;&gt;In Eastern Chinese folklore, it is thought that a mouse can steal human breath at night. Human breath strengthens the mouse, allowing it longevity and the ability to briefly become human at night, in a similar fashion to fox spirits. The mouse sits near the person's face or under their nostrils&#xA;&#xA;Some more samples:&#xA;&#xA;&gt;In Scandinavian folklore, sleep paralysis is caused by a mare, a supernatural creature related to incubi and succubi. The mare is a damned woman, who is cursed and her body is carried mysteriously during sleep and without her noticing. In this state, she visits villagers to sit on their rib cages while they are asleep, causing them to experience nightmares.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;In many parts of the Southern United States, the phenomenon is known as a hag, and the event is said to portend an approaching tragedy or accident&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;In Brazil, there is a legend about a mythological being called the pisadeira (&quot;she who steps&quot;). She is described as a tall, skinny old woman, with long dirty nails in dried toes, white tangled hair, a long nose, staring red eyes, and greenish teeth on her evil laugh. She lives over the roofs, waiting to step on the chest of those who sleep with a full stomach&#xA;&#xA;Reference:&lt;br&gt;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_hag&lt;br&gt;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boo_Hag&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_hag&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightmare&#xA;  [3]: http://In%20Scandinavian%20folklore,%20sleep%20paralysis%20is%20caused%20by%20a%20mare,%20a%20supernatural%20creature%20related%20to%20incubi%20and%20succubi.%20The%20mare%20is%20a%20damned%20woman,%20who%20is%20cursed%20and%20her%20body%20is%20carried%20mysteriously%20during%20sleep%20and%20without%20her%20noticing.%20In%20this%20state,%20she%20visits%20villagers%20to%20sit%20on%20their%20rib%20cages%20while%20they%20are%20asleep,%20causing%20them%20to%20experience%20nightmares." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21273" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1052" RevisionGUID="1f5cea7b-c6b1-4721-9491-7226cd90f7ac" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Hulking out is a fairly appropriate comparison to the riastrad, or warp spasm, as Kinsella put it, but far more monstrous than just green-tinged and well-muscled.&#xA;&#xA;Massively muscled, lower legs twisted around backward, one eye sucked into his head, the other eye having fallen outward, cheeks peeled away from his mouth to reveal his jaw, his own internal organs visible in his mouth, hair stood up in massive spikes strong enough to skewer an apple, and blood spurting from his forehead.  Rather intimidating all told.&#xA;&#xA;The fullest description occurs after the slaying of the boy troop of Emain Macha.  Kinsella's translation puts it this way:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The first warp-spasm seized Cúchulainn, and made him into a monstrous thing, hideous and shapeless, unheard of. His shanks and his joints, every knuckle and angle and organ from head to foot, shook like a tree in the flood or a reed in the stream. His body made a furious twist inside his skin, so that his feet and shins switched to the rear and his heels and calves switched to the front... On his head the temple-sinews stretched to the nape of his neck, each mighty, immense, measureless knob as big as the head of a month-old child... he sucked one eye so deep into his head that a wild crane couldn't probe it onto his cheek out of the depths of his skull; the other eye fell out along his cheek. His mouth weirdly distorted: his cheek peeled back from his jaws until the gullet appeared, his lungs and his liver flapped in his mouth and throat, his lower jaw struck the upper a lion-killing blow, and fiery flakes large as a ram's fleece reached his mouth from his throat... The hair of his head twisted like the tangle of a red thornbush stuck in a gap; if a royal apple tree with all its kingly fruit were shaken above him, scarce an apple would reach the ground but each would be spiked on a bristle of his hair as it stood up on his scalp with rage.&#xA;&#xA;Which is actually fairly concise, compared to the [very direct translation of Joseph Dunn](http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/ScythedChariot.html), which goes on for four paragraphs in full description of the process.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Then took place the first twisting-fit and rage of the royal hero Cuchulain, so that he made a terrible, many-shaped, wonderful, unheard of thing of himself. His flesh trembled about him like a pole against the torrent or like a bulrush against the stream, every member and every joint and every point and every knuckle of him from crown to ground. He made a mad whirling-feat of his body within his hide. His feet and his shins and his knees slid so that they came behind him. His heels and his calves and his hams shifted so that they passed to the front. The muscles of his calves moved so that they came to the front of his shins, so that each huge knot was the size of a soldier's balled fist. He stretched the sinews of his head so that they stood out on the nape of his neck, hill-like lumps, huge, incalculable, vast, immeasurable and as large as the head of a month-old child.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; He next made a ruddy bowl of his face and his countenance. He gulped down one eye into his head so that it would be hard work if a wild crane succeeded in drawing it out on to the middle of his cheek from the rear of his skull. Its mate sprang forth till it came out on his cheek. His mouth was distorted monstrously. He drew the cheek from the jaw-bone so that the interior of his throat was to be seen. His lungs and his lights stood out so that they fluttered in his mouth and his gullet. He struck a mad lion's blow with the upper jaw on its fellow so that as large as a wether's fleece of a three year old was each red, fiery flake which his teeth forced into his mouth from his gullet.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; There was heard the loud clap of his heart against his breast like the yelp of a howling bloodhound or like a lion going among bears. There were seen the torches of the Badb, and the rain clouds of poison, and the sparks of glowing-red fire, blazing and flashing in hazes and mists over his head with the seething of the truly wild wrath that rose up above him. His hair bristled all over his head like branches of a redthorn thrust into a gap in a great hedge. Had a king's apple-tree laden with royal fruit been shaken around him, scarce an apple of them all would have passed over him to the ground, but rather would an apple have stayed stuck on each single hair there, for the twisting of the anger which met it as it rose from his hair above him.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The Lon Laith ('Champion's Light') stood out of his forehead, so that it was as long and as thick as a warrior's whetstone. As high, as thick, as strong, as steady, as long as the sail-tree of some huge prime ship was the straight spout of dark blood which arose right on high from the very ridge-pole of his crown, so that a black fog of witchery was made thereof like to the smoke from a king's hostel what time the king comes to be ministered to at nightfall of a winter's day.&#xA;&#xA;------&#xA;&#xA;Just for fun, a number of comics have been made about and inspired by Cuchulain and the Tain.  Here are a couple instances of a riastrad in comics:&#xA;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;[![Knaak &quot;The Hound&quot; cover][1]][1]  &#xA;Cover of Richard Knaak's &quot;The Hound&quot;  &#xA;Was [to be published in 2013](http://mybookgoggles.blogspot.com/2012/06/cuchulainn-heart-of-hound-by-richard.html), but I can't find it for sale&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;[![Paddy Brown's Cattle Raid of Cooley][2]][2]  &#xA;Patrick Brown's &quot;The Cattle Raid of Cooley&quot;  &#xA;[Chapter 7, Page 20](http://paddybrown.co.uk/?p=4399)&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;[![&quot;Slaine&quot;, Fabry][3]][3]  &#xA;From the &quot;Slaine&quot; graphic novel  &#xA;Inspired by the Tain and Cuchullain  &#xA;Artist:  Glenn Fabry&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xA;&lt;kbd&gt;[![&quot;Slaine&quot;][4]][4]  &#xA;Another from &quot;Slaine&quot;&lt;/kbd&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Which all seem at least a little on the conservative side to me, given the incredible, hyperbolic description in the text.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/61nJP.png&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/6vNQB.png&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/rns6D.png&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/YFmzh.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21274" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1050" RevisionGUID="78933cfc-efe0-4488-bc92-c5681c5c1098" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In the [*Táin Bó Cúailnge*][1], or *Cattle Raid of Cooley*, the great Irish hero Cuchulainn is said to undergo a process which appears to be quite similar to &quot;hulking out&quot;.  The most colorful translation of the phrase used to describe this transformation is &quot;warp spasm&quot;.&#xA;&#xA;### What did the warp spasm, and the results thereof, look like?&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%A1in_B%C3%B3_C%C3%BAailnge" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21275" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1047" RevisionGUID="a3183714-c1ef-47f4-8a6f-1ec7cb7705d1" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="**Yes, both in characteristics and history.**&#xA;&#xA;Starting from [here](http://www.timelessmyths.com/celtic/faeries.html),&#xA;&gt; Another writer, Wirt Sikes wrote in the British Goblins (1880), comparing the Welsh fairies with that of Norse/Teutonic fairies. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Sikes says that there are four types in the Norse tradition:&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; 1. elves,&#xA;&gt; 2. dwarves and troll,&#xA;&gt; 3. nisses and&#xA;&gt; 4. necks, mermen, and mermaids. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; While in the Welsh traditions there are:&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; 1. The ellyllon, or the elves;&#xA;&gt; 2. The coblynau, or the mine fairies;&#xA;&gt; 3. The bwbachod, or the household fairies;&#xA;&gt; 4. The gwragedd annwn, or the fairies of the lakes and streams;&#xA;&gt; 5. The gwyllion, or the mountain fairies.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Here, the classification of Welsh fairies distinguished household fairies from that of the mines, lakes and mountains. Like the Irish tradition, the Welsh can be further divided into solitary and social fairies.&#xA;&#xA;I found [the text of *British Goblins*](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/34704/34704-h/34704-h.htm), where Sikes states (at the start of Chapter II)&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Fairies being creatures of the imagination, it is not possible to classify them by fixed and immutable rules. In the exact sciences, there are laws which never vary, or if they vary, their very eccentricity is governed by precise rules. Even in the largest sense, comparative mythology must demean itself modestly in order to be tolerated in the severe company of the sciences. In presenting his subjects, therefore, the writer in this field can only govern himself by the purpose of orderly arrangement. To secure the maximum of system, for the sake of the student who employs the work for reference and comparison, with the minimum of dullness, for the sake of the general reader, is perhaps the limit of a reasonable ambition. Keightley[8] divides into four classes the Scandinavian elements of popular belief as to fairies, viz.:&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; 1. The Elves;&#xA;&gt; 2. The Dwarfs, or Trolls;&#xA;&gt; 3. The Nisses; and&#xA;&gt; 4. The Necks, [12] Mermen, and Mermaids.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; How entirely arbitrary this division is, the student of Scandinavian folk-lore at once perceives. Yet it is perhaps as satisfactory as another. The fairies of Wales may be divided into five classes, if analogy be not too sharply insisted on. Thus we have&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; 1. The Ellyllon, or elves;&#xA;&gt; 2. The Coblynau, or mine fairies;&#xA;&gt; 3. The Bwbachod, or household fairies;&#xA;&gt; 4. The Gwragedd Annwn, or fairies of the lakes and streams; and&#xA;&gt; 5. The Gwyllion, or mountain fairies.&#xA;&#xA;&quot;Keightley&quot; refers to Thomas Keightley, the author of *Fairy Mythology*, from 1870. I found [an index of all its parts](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/tfm/index.htm). This is certainly harder to search through, but in [his analysis on Ireland](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/tfm/tfm132.htm), Keightley writes&#xA;&gt; The fairies of Ireland can hardly be said to differ in any respect from those of England and Scotland. Like them they are of diminutive size, rarely exceeding two feet in height; they live also in society, their ordinary abode being the interior of the mounds, called in Irish, Raths (Rahs), in English, Moats, the construction of which is, by the peasantry, ascribed to the Danes from whom, it might thence perhaps be inferred, the Irish got their fairies direct and not vid England.&#xA;&#xA;In [the more general summary of Celtic fairies](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/tfm/tfm131.htm), he writes&#xA;&gt; Yet in the popular creed of all these tribes, we meet at the present day beings exactly corresponding to the Dwarfs and Fairies of the Gotho-German nations. Of these beings there is no mention in any works--such as the Welsh Poems, and Mabinogion, the Poems of Ossian, or the different irish poems and romances--which can by any possibility lay claim to an antiquity anterior to the conquests of the Northmen. Is it not then a reasonable supposition that the Picts, Saxons, and other sons of the North, brought with them their Dwarfs and Kobolds, and communicated the knowledge of, and belief in, them to their Celtic and Cymric subjects and neighbours? Proceeding on this theory, we have placed the Celts and Cymry next to and after the Gotho-German nations, though they are perhaps their precursors in Europe.&#xA;&#xA;In [his introduction to the fairies of Great Britain as a whole](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/tfm/tfm105.htm) (though perhaps ecluding the Celts), he writes&#xA;&gt; We have already seen that the Anglo-Saxon conquerors of Britain had in their language the terms from which are derived Elf and Dwarf, and the inference is natural that their ideas respecting these beings corresponded with those of the Scandinavians and Germans. The same may be said. of the Picts, who, akin to the Scandinavians, early seized on the Scottish Lowlands. We therefore close our survey of the Fairy Mythology of the Gotho-German race with Great Britain.&#xA;&#xA;So there are quite a few parallels between Norse elves and Celtic fairies:&#xA;&#xA; - The elves are akin to the ellyllon&#xA; - The dwarves and trolls are akin to the coblynau&#xA; - The nisses are akin to the bwbachod&#xA; - The necks, men and mermaids are akin to the gwragedd annwn" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21276" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="952" RevisionGUID="1501630a-bfe5-4107-8b31-59e6eff78c31" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The only relevant thing I found on the web with the exact description is [here][1] . &#xA;&#xA;&gt;READY: We all have to cross the River Styx&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;I wish I could take credit for this topic, but the truth is my friend Rev. Thomas Butts wrote something like this for his weekly column in the Monroeville paper several years ago. He kindly gave me permission to paraphrase some of his thoughts. I also found a similar treatment in a 1992 Easter sermon by Dr. James Baird for First Presbyterian Church of Jackson, Miss. The theme for both pieces is that river we are all going to cross someday from this life into the next.&#xA;&#xA;Goes on with the conversation as you quote it.&#xA;&#xA;It seems to me it is a modern narrative created by a pastor in the US as a paradigm of religious significance.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://mobile3308.rssing.com/browser.php?indx=8094601&amp;item=4342" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21277" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="958" RevisionGUID="d0b17f1a-dc15-429e-9006-183273248478" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Wikipedia proposes two explanations for why the Wondjina are typically depicted without mouths: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Common composition is with large upper bodies and heads that show eyes and nose, but typically no mouth. Two explanations have been given for this: they are so powerful they do not require speech and if they had mouths, the rain would never cease. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: Wikipedia contributors, 'Wondjina', Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia, 23 June 2015, 00:55 UTC, &lt;https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wondjina&amp;oldid=668217877&gt; [accessed 23 June 2015]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;However the article provides no source for either theory. Is there a story that explains why the Wondjina are mouthless?&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21278" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="960" RevisionGUID="8f536b8c-6dc7-4478-a5c2-d96cea0e105e" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The more popular version of the Talos story can be found in the Argonautica. In it, Talos was an automaton, a self operating machine. He was forged by Hephaistos and was tasked by Zeus to guard Europa's hideout in mount Dikti (in Crete): &#xA;&#xA;&gt; And Talos, the man of bronze, as he broke off rocks from the hard cliff, stayed them from fastening hawsers to the shore, when they came to the roadstead of Dicte's haven. He was of the stock of bronze, of the men sprung from ash-trees, the last left among the sons of the gods; and the son of Cronos gave him to Europa to be the warder of Crete and to stride round the island thrice a day with his feet of bronze. Now in all the rest of his body and limbs was he fashioned of bronze and invulnerable; but beneath the sinew by his ankle was a blood-red vein; and this, with its issues of life and death, was covered by a thin skin. So the heroes, though outworn with toil, quickly backed their ship from the land in sore dismay. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Project Gutenberg EBook of The Argonautica, by Apollonius Rhodius](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/830/830-h/830-h.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Pseudo-Apollodorus' version differs a bit; Talos is tasked by king Minos to patrol Crete, and he might be shaped like a bull: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Putting to sea from there, they were hindered from touching at Crete by Talos. Some say that he was a man of the Brazen Race, others that he was given to Minos by Hephaestus; he was a brazen man, but some say that he was a bull. He had a single vein extending from his neck to his ankles, and a bronze nail was rammed home at the end of the vein. This Talos kept guard, running round the island thrice every day; wherefore, when he saw the Argo standing inshore, he pelted it as usual with stones. His death was brought about by the wiles of Medea, whether, as some say, she drove him mad by drugs, or, as others say, she promised to make him immortal and then drew out the nail, so that all the ichor gushed out and he died. But some say that Poeas shot him dead in the ankle.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Book 1, Apollodorus, Library, Sir James George Frazer, Ed.](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0548.tlg001.perseus-eng1:1.9)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA; &#xA;Regardless of these differences Talos doesn't appear to be intelligent in either version. He is following instructions mechanically, similarly to Hephaistos' other automatons (e.g. the Khalkotauroi or the Cabeirian Horses). &#xA;&#xA;---&#xA;&#xA;As a sidenote, these coins from Phaistos tell us the Cretans thought Talos had wings. &#xA;&#xA;![coins depicting Talos with wings][1]&#xA;&#xA;Unfortunately a tale of a flying Talos didn't survive.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/zEiSf.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21279" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="965" RevisionGUID="9415a60e-3baf-45b8-8374-529a970d164a" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In fact, several! Four immediately come to mind: **Dionysus**, **Inanna**/**Ishtar**, **Aphrodite**, and **Cybele**.&#xA;&#xA;---&#xA;&#xA;## Dionysus&#xA;First up is Dionysus, a god best known for wine and drunkenness, but surely you can see how that quickly is connected to other, darker qualities. Already in the earliest text mentioning him, Dionysus is a god of two natures, &quot;joy and sorrow&quot; as Hesiod (or Pseudo-Hesiod) in the *Catalogue of Women* fr. 179 Most (= fr. 87 Evelyn-White, for those with the older Loeb or are looking online) puts it:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; &quot;...Dionysus gave to Mmen as a delight and as a burden  &#xA;Whoever drinks his fill, the wine becomes maddening for him,  &#xA;it binds together his feet and his hands and his tongue and his mind  &#xA;with invisible bonds, and soft sleep loves him.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;(Trans. Glenn Most, Loeb Classical Library)&#xA;&#xA;Clearly Dionysus embodies the very nature of alcohol.&#xA;&#xA;Aside from the power which comes from over-intoxication, there were also his attendants, the Maenads (also called the Bacchae or Bacchantes). These women roamed the countryside in drunken, mad revelry. In their frenzy, though, they were also known to kill because of the altered state that received from Dionysus.&#xA;&#xA;Two of the most famous of this event were the killing of Orpheus and the killing of Pentheus. Orpheus, the eminent musician of the ancient Greek world, who with his lyre charmed Hades himself into giving him back his wife, in grief after losing his wife again (he was instructed not to turn back to look at her before they left the cave, and yet when he neared the end he could not help himself), was torn apart by Maenads in Thrace.&#xA;&#xA;The death of Pentheus is recounted in Euripides' [*Bacchae*](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0092). There Pentheus the king of Thebes refused the worship of Dionysus, so the god made local women crazy, including Pentheus' own mother, and they tore him to pieces.&#xA;&#xA;The ancients made it clear the god himself was part of this hallucinogenic enterprise:&#xA;&#xA;&gt;While busily engaged, with sudden beat  &#xA;they hear resounding tambourines; and pipes  &#xA;and crooked horns and tinkling brass renew,  &#xA;unseen, the note; saffron and myrrh dissolve  &#xA;in dulcet odours; and, beyond belief,  &#xA;the woven webs, dependent on the loom,  &#xA;take tints of green, put forth new ivy leaves,  &#xA;or change to grape-vines verdant. There the thread  &#xA;is twisted into tendrils, there the warp  &#xA;is fashioned into many-moving leaves—  &#xA;the purple lends its splendour to the grape.  &#xA;And now the day is past; it is the hour  &#xA;when night ambiguous merges into day,  &#xA;which dubious owns nor light nor dun obscure;  &#xA;and suddenly the house begins to shake,  &#xA;and torches oil-dipped seem to flare around,  &#xA;and fires a-glow to shine in every room,  &#xA;and phantoms, feigned of savage beasts, to howl.  &#xA;&#xA;Ovid, *Metamorphoses* 4.391–404, trans. by More 1922&#xA;&#xA;----&#xA;&#xA;## Inanna/Ishtar&#xA;&#xA;The next goddesses are **Ishtar** and **Inanna**, with Isthar being the Akkadian equivalent of the Sumerian Inanna, and therefore there is considerable overlap between the two. Nevertheless, despite Ishtar's recognition, Inanna precedes her.&#xA;&#xA;One of the central myths of **Inanna** is the *Descent of Inanna*. Here Inanna comes to visit her sister Ereshkigal in the Underworld, when her sister has her stripped of her garments (symbolic of her power) and tries to force her to remain there. Inanna was able to escape by offering a substitute, and she ended up choosing her lover (husband?) Dumuzi.&#xA;&#xA;It should be also noted that she utterly leveled Ebih, a mountain which refused to worship her. Yet clearly she's also a sexual goddess. The historical Shulgi, king of Ur, uses terms like &quot;my consort&quot; and &quot;your beloved husband&quot; in describing his relationship with the goddess. &#xA;&#xA;This and other hymns lead some scholars to see her as a powerful goddess, whose personality could be highly erotic but simultaneously utterly destructive.&#xA;&#xA;The Semitic people of southern Iraq borrowed these myths of Inanna for their goddess **Ishtar**, whom they equated. Not much more can be said about Ishtar and Tammuz (the Akkadian version of Dumuzi) that Gilgamesh, in his famous epic, hadn't already:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Woe to him whom Ishtar had honoured! The fickle goddess treated her passing lovers cruelly, and the unhappy wretches usually paid dearly for the favours heaped on them. Animals, enslaved by love, lost their native vigour: they fell into traps laid by men or were domesticated by them. 'Thou has loved the lion, mighty in strength', says the hero Gilgamesh to Ishtar, 'and thou hast dug for him seven and seven pits! Thou hast loved the steed, proud in battle, and destined him for the halter, the goad and the whip.'&#xA;&#xA;...&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Listen to me while I tell the tale of your lovers. There was Tammuz, the lover of your youth, for him you decreed wailing, year after year. You loved the many-coloured Lilac-breasted Roller, but still you struck and broke his wing [...] You have loved the lion tremendous in strength: seven pits you dug for him, and seven. You have loved the stallion magnificent in battle, and for him you decreed the whip and spur and a thong [...] You have loved the shepherd of the flock; he made meal-cake for you day after day, he killed kids for your sake. You struck and turned him into a wolf; now his own herd-boys chase him away, his own hounds worry his flanks.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;*Epic of Gilgamesh* Tablet 6, trans. by Sandars 1972&#xA;&#xA;Reference and further reading:&#xA;&#xA;Gwendolyn Leick 1994. *Sex and Eroticism in Mesopotamian Literature*. Routledge.&#xA;&#xA;See in particular chapter 9 (&quot;Inanna Rejoicing in Her Vulva&quot;) and chapter 10 (&quot;'My Consort, Maid Inanna, Lady Voluptuousness of Heaven and Earth'&quot;).&#xA;&#xA;---&#xA;&#xA;## Cybele&#xA;&#xA;Next is **Cybele**, originally an Anatolian wilderness/mountain goddess who was later imported to Greece and Rome.&#xA;&#xA;This goddess' most famous story seems a neat parallel with Inanna/Ishtar, though it's too speculative to say whether there is a direct connection.&#xA;&#xA;Ovid in his *Fasti* (a lengthy etiological elegy of the Roman calendar) sums it up nicely:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; I said ‘Where did this urge to cut off  &#xA;Their members come from?’ As I ended, the Muse spoke:  &#xA;‘In the woods, a Phrygian boy, Attis, of handsome face,  &#xA;Won the tower-bearing goddess with his chaste passion.  &#xA;She desired him to serve her, and protect her temple,  &#xA;And said: “Wish, you might be a boy for ever.”  &#xA;He promised to be true, and said: “If I’m lying  &#xA;May the love I fail in be my last love.”  &#xA;He did fail, and in meeting the nymph Sagaritis,  &#xA;Abandoned what he was: the goddess, angered, avenged it.  &#xA;She destroyed the Naiad, by wounding a tree,  &#xA;Since the tree contained the Naiad’s fate.  &#xA;Attis was maddened, and thinking his chamber’s roof  &#xA;Was falling, fled for the summit of Mount Dindymus.  &#xA;Now he cried: “Remove the torches”, now he cried:  &#xA;“Take the whips away”: often swearing he saw the Furies.  &#xA;He tore at his body too with a sharp stone,  &#xA;And dragged his long hair in the filthy dust,  &#xA;Shouting: “I deserved this! I pay the due penalty  &#xA;In blood! Ah! Let the parts that harmed me, perish!  &#xA;Let them perish!” cutting away the burden of his groin,  &#xA;And suddenly bereft of every mark of manhood.  &#xA;His madness set a precedent, and his unmanly servants  &#xA;Toss their hair, and cut off their members as if worthless.’&#xA;&#xA;Ovid, *Fasti* 4.221-242 (trans. Kline 2004)&#xA;&#xA;Interestingly, several ancient authors (e.g. Apollodorus 3.5) state that Cybele taught to Dionysus the *orgia*, the ecstatic and frenzied form of worship in their respective cults. Orpheus, said to have been killed by Bacchantes, as aforementioned the ecstatic and frenzied worshipers of Dionysus, also had orgiastic mysteries.&#xA;&#xA;---&#xA;&#xA;## Aphrodite&#xA;&#xA;The last of the goddesses I'll mention is **Aphrodite**. The infamous goddess of love is called Venus by the Romans, there is thus a connection to Inanna/Ishtar, who were said to have been represented by the planet Venus (as too was Aphrodite and Venus).&#xA;&#xA;Like alcohol, love can be good or bad, and it shows with her. Befitting the goddess of love, she was also said to be the most beautiful goddess. She was married to Hephaestus (= Vulcan), a lame and disfigured god but an excellent craftsman, and already in Homer she is caught by him having an affair with the more handsome Ares (= Mars).&#xA;&#xA;Her destructive power was manifest in different ways. First, as the most beautiful goddess, she won the &quot;beauty contest&quot; (caused by a golden apple thrown at a party on Olympus on which was inscribed &quot;to the most beautiful&quot;) with the Trojan prince Paris (also called Alexander, not at all to be confused with Alexander the Great) judging her, Hera (= Juno, Queen of the Gods, goddess of childbirth), and Athena (= Minvera, a goddess of wisdom, craft, and skill)—the event is now aptly named The Judgment of Paris). Most will know how this story ends: Paris receives as a bribery gift the hand of Helen of Sparta, wife to Menelaus, who thereupon with his brother Agamemnon and &quot;all the Achaeans, Danaans, and Argives&quot; attack Troy.&#xA;&#xA;Ever since then, &quot;love and war&quot; was a major theme throughout all of Greek and Roman literature.&#xA;&#xA;There is a connection with Inanna/Ishtar, too. First, Aphrodite used to be connected to war more intimately than merely the cause of the Trojan War. Some early depictions of Aphrodite have her suited up for battle. There's also the story inside the *Iliad* in which Aphrodite fights, is wounded by Diomedes, and cries to her mother, the goddess Dione, after which Zeus then chastises her for being out of place in war:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; This only drew a smile from the Father of men and gods. Calling golden Aphrodite to his side, he said: &quot;War is not for you, my child, tend to the loving deeds of wedlock, and leave the fighting to Ares the swift and to Athene.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;Homer, *Iliad* 428-430, trans. Kline 2009&#xA;&#xA;The whole scene is a close parallel to Ishtar who, after Gilgamesh insulted her (referencing Tammuz/Dumizi), flies up to her father Anu, and asks him to release Gugalanna the mighty Bull of Heaven to punish Gilgamesh, though it was then slain by Gilgamesh's companion Enkidu, who himself died because of it).&#xA;&#xA;Homer therefore is likely to be combating the existent idea of Aphrodite as a goddess of *both* love and war. Even if he was fairly successful, her destructive powers were still seen. I always found this vase to be a nice representation of this: http://www.theoi.com/Gallery/K9.1.html&#xA;&#xA;To further this connection, Aphrodite also had a lover, whose name was **Adonis**, most certainly connected to the Semitic word *adon*, meaning &quot;lord&quot; (whence Hebrew *adonai* meaning &quot;My Lord&quot;). Pseudo-Apollodorus has the best summary (shorter than Ovid's, whose is the best story, but not a summary):&#xA;&#xA;&gt; **Because of Aphrodite's wrath** (for she did not honour Aphrodite), Smyrna developed a lust for her father, and with the help of her nurse slept with him for twelve nights without his knowing it. When he found out he drew his sword and started after her, and as he was about to overtake her, she prayed to the gods to become invisible. The gods took pity on her and changed her into the tree called the Smyrna. Nine months later the tree split open and the baby named Adonis was born. Because of his beauty, Aphrodite secreted him away in a chest, keeping it from the gods, and left him with Persephone. But when Persephone got a glimpse of Adonis, she refused to return him. When the matter was brought to Zeus for arbitration, he divided the year into three parts and decreed that Adonis would spent one third of the year by himself, one third with Persephone, and the rest with Aphrodite. But Adonis added his own portion to Aphrodite’s. Later on, while hunting, he was attacked by a boar and died.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;Apollodorus *Bibliotecha* 3.18 trans. Aldrich 1921&#xA;&#xA;(I highlighted above a nice phrase summarizing this response!)&#xA;&#xA;There is also concerns of the Underworld, similar to Inanna and Dumuzi:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; On his death Adonis was obliged to descend into the lower world, but he was allowed to spend six months out of every year with his beloved Aphrodite in the upper world. (Orph. hymn. 55. 10.)&#xA;&#xA;&quot;Adonis&quot; in *A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology*, ed. by William Smith." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21280" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="976" RevisionGUID="8fcf23a4-dfec-4843-8524-0695bdeb36e9" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="# Sumer, sometime in the 4th or 3rd millennium B.C.&#xA;&#xA;My first instinct was to check out [the Wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_dragon#Origin) again. One interesting quote was&#xA;&gt; The presence of dragons within Chinese culture dates back several thousands of years with the discovery of a dragon statue dating back to the fifth millennium BC from the Yangshao culture in Henan in 1987, and jade badges of rank in coiled form have been excavated from the Hongshan culture circa 4700-2900 BC.&#xA;&#xA;That would seem like a likely candidate. Unfortunately, the in-text citations do not work, I can find no other mention of either of these that does not quote Wikipedia verbatim, and this probably doesn't count as mythology, either. Neither are associated with &quot;myths&quot;.&#xA;&#xA;I stumbled across [this](http://www.theallineed.com/entertainment/08033180.htm) blog post/whatever-it-is. Either way, it was helpful insofar as it led me somewhere. Citing *Sumerian Mythology*, 1944, 1961, by; Samuel Noah Kramer, it states&#xA;&gt; KUR&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Sumeria 3rd Millennium B.C.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Since the dragon-slaying theme was an important motif in the Sumerian mythology of the third millennium B. C., it is not unreasonable to assume that many a thread in the texture of the Greek and early Christian dragon tales winds back to Sumerian sources.&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; . . .&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; We find mention of Kur in three myths from the 4th - 3rd Millennium B.C., (more than a millennium before Tiamat!), In the introductory prologue to the epic tale &quot;Gilgamesh, Enkidu, and the Nether World,&quot;( written on eight tablets - seven excavated in Nippur and one in Ur), Where Enki, the water-god, fights Kur after he learns that The goddess Ereshkigal was carried off violently into the nether world, by Kur. Enki fought Kur from a boat, and Kur fought back savagely with stones of all sizes, and attacked Enki's boat with the primeval waters which it controlled. Unfortunately for us, the author of this tale is so anxious to proceed with the Gilgamesh tale that he doesn't finish the dragon part, and leaves us hanging. It is certain that Enki wins though because he is in the rest of the poem, Kur is not.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; . . .&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The second version of the slaying-of-the-dragon myth can be found in &quot;The Feats and Exploits of Ninurta.&quot; (49 tablets) A significant version, due to the fact that it is evident that it was utilized by the Semitic redactors in the creation of the Babylonian Creation Myth featuring Tiamat.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; In this version, Ninurta, the warrior-god, is the hero of the story. His personified weapon, Sharur, kisses up to him in a drawn out speech extolling the heroic qualities and deeds of Ninurta to convince him to go after Kur, and attach and destroy him. What Sharur has against Kur is not written in the text that is available. Ninurta leaves to do as asked, but finds himself lacking and &quot;flees like a bird&quot;. Sharur though, won't let it go and speaks, reassuring and encouraging Ninurta with his words. &quot;Ninurta now attacks Kur fiercely with all the weapons at his command, and Kur is completely destroyed.&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; . . .&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The third version of the slaying-of-the-dragon myth can be found in &quot;Inanna and Ebih.&quot; A one hundred and ninety line poem. (12 tablets)&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The dragon-slayer in this version of the story is a goddess, Inanna, curiously known as both the goddess of love and also as the goddess of battle and strife, (She must have been married), and is also referred to in many Sumerian hymns as &quot;The Destroyer of Kur.&quot; Kur, is also referred to as The 'mountain,' in the Poem. Did I mention that Kur was also the first fire breathing dragon?&#xA;&#xA;Interesting. I decided to learn more.&#xA;&#xA;First, the relevant part of *Sumerian Mythology* appears to be available [here](http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/sum/sum08.htm). No part of it quotes any relevant sections of the myths that imply or outright state that Kur is a dragon. So I decided to find them for myself. (By the way, related notes on many Sumerian myths, including these, can be found [here](http://www.ianlawton.com/mes4.htm)).&#xA;&#xA;[**Gilgamesh, Enkidu, and the Nether World**](http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.1.8.1.4#)&#xA;&#xA;The relevant passage appears to be&#xA;&gt; 1 It began in the early days of the world, after the earth and the heavens had been separated. It was a turbulent time. Ereshkigal had been taken by the dragon Kur and Enki was sailing after to put things into the order that they belonged in.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; 2 The waters that Enki sailed were being pummeled by rocks. The smallest of these hit the side of Enki's boat like they were like hammers. The largest of these hit with the impact of a boulder thrown from a catapult.&#xA;&#xA;This is all that remains of the explicit tale of the fight of Kur against Enki.&#xA;&#xA;[**The Exploits of Ninurta**](http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr162.htm)&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The Asag leapt up at the head of the battle. For a club it uprooted the sky, took it in its hand; like a snake it slid its head along the ground. It was a mad dog attacking to kill the helpless, dripping with sweat on its flanks. Like a wall collapsing, the Asag fell on Ninurta the son of Enlil. Like an accursed storm, it howled in a raucous voice; like a gigantic snake, it roared at the Land. It dried up the waters of the Mountains, dragged away the tamarisks, tore the flesh of the Earth and covered her with painful wounds. It set fire to the reed-beds, bathed the sky in blood, turned it inside out; it dispersed the people there. At that moment, on that day, the fields became black potash, across the whole extent of the horizon, reddish like purple dye -- truly it was so!&#xA;&#xA;[Asag](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asag) is often considered to be different from [Kur](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kur). However, [this](http://www.blackdrago.com/fame/kur.htm) (of dubious reputation) states&#xA;&gt; Are Asag and Kur synonymous, both referencing a dragon? Or are they different entities attributed as the dark force overcome by Ninurta? Owing to the age of Sumerian literature, and its predecessors adapting the myths, this remains uncertain.&#xA;&#xA;[**Inana and Eibh**](http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr132.htm)&#xA;&#xA;&gt; An, the king of the deities, answered her: &quot;My little one demands the destruction of this mountain -- what is she taking on? Inana demands the destruction of this mountain -- what is she taking on? She demands the destruction of this mountain -- what is she taking on?&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &quot;It has poured fearsome terror on the abodes of the gods. It has spread fear among the holy dwellings of the Anuna deities. It has poured its terror and ferocity over this land. It has poured the mountain range's radiance and fear over all the lands. Its arrogance extends grandly to the centre of heaven.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; . . .&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; My lady confronted the mountain range. She advanced step by step. She sharpened both edges of her dagger. She grabbed Ebih's neck as if ripping up esparto grass. She pressed the dagger's teeth into its interior. She roared like thunder.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The rocks forming the body of Ebih clattered down its flanks. From its sides and crevices great serpents spat venom. She damned its forests and cursed its trees. She killed its oak trees with drought. She poured fire on its flanks and made its smoke dense. The goddess established authority over the mountain. Holy Inana did as she wished.&#xA;&#xA;Huh. That's disappointing. The literal interpretation states that Inana's foe is a mountain, not a dragon. Indeed, as [that earlier dubious source](http://www.blackdrago.com/fame/kur.htm) states,&#xA;&gt; Another disambiguation should be made between Kur the dragon and the myth of Inanna and Ebih. Inanna was the Sumerian goddess of love, battle, and strife and among her many epithets was the 'destroyer of Kur.' In this myth, Kur is also called 'mountain Ebih,' which is a district northeast of Sumer. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Therefore, Inanna overcame Kur, but in this myth, Kur is an hostile land, not a dragon.&#xA;&#xA;Is the myth being metaphorical when it describes Inana's foe as a mountain?&#xA;&#xA;This myth is doubtful, as are, come to think of it, the other two.&#xA;&#xA;In my (non-expert) opinion, *Gilgamesh, Enkidu, and the Nether World* is not strong evidence for a dragon. The source I gave is the only translation I could find that explicitly calls Kur a dragon. Most others do not refer to that. *Inana and Eibh* also seems to be a lost cause, because, quite literally, Inana is fighting a mountain, not a dragon. I doubt that the myth is being figurative. Mythology tends to be literal, realistic or not.&#xA;&#xA;*The Exploits of Ninurta* seems to be the best evidence available. It says&#xA;&gt; like a snake it slid its head along the ground.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; . . .&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; like a gigantic snake, it roared at the Land.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; . . .&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; It set fire to the reed-beds&#xA;&#xA;Circumstantial? Perhaps. But it seems like a dragon-like creature. I'm calling this one the winner.&#xA;&#xA;Now for the date. Embarrassingly enough, I haven't found any date for this other than the one Kramer gave, somewhere in the 4th or 3rd millennium B.C." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21281" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="978" RevisionGUID="eba64a48-2144-4aca-8d0e-d050e8ac7237" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="I have three myths that *somewhat* fulfil your requirements:&#xA;&#xA;In Aztec mythology, the sun and the moon (and other celestial objects, like Venus) were created by the self-sacrifice of deities, who were then resurrected as celestial deities. I don't think the stories ever specified whether the sacrifice took place in heaven (I personally doubt that detail would have been relevant to the people telling the story), but the Aztecs had highly developed concepts of heaven and hell. If you're interested in learning more, the book [*Aztec Thought and Culture: A Study of the Ancient Nahuatl Mind*][1] features an extensive analysis of that myth.&#xA;&#xA;The [tag:popol-vuh] includes a story of how two twins die and are resurrected in the land of the dead (i.e. hell, not heaven). I know that you asked for stories concerning heaven, but I'm including this example to show that many myths feature mortals dying and coming back to life in otherworldly settings.&#xA;&#xA;This third example is really interesting: it's an Inca myth recorded after the conquest. It's called &quot;The boy who rose to the sky&quot;, and it's about a boy who travels to the sky (which might be analogous to heaven?) in search of a girl.&#xA;&#xA;In that sky-world, there is a pool that makes old people young, which could be compared to rebirth:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; When they arrived in the sky, they were dirty and bearded. They had grown old. But when they came out of the water they were handsome and young.&#xA;&#xA;It's also clear that this place is inhospitable to mortals:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; For a year the young man lives with his wife in this manner. But when the year had passed, she began to neglect him and no longer brought him his food. One day she went out, saying, &quot;The time has come when you must leave. After that she did not come back to the house. She had abandoned him at last.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Then the boy's eyes filled with tears and he returned to the edge of the sky lake. When he got there, he saw the condor rising up in the distance. As he ran to meet him, the condor flew to his side, and he saw that the sacred condor had grown old. And the condor could see that the boy, too, had grown old and wrinkled.&#xA;&#xA;I found this story in John Bierhorst's book [*Black Rainbow: Legends of the Incas and Myths of Ancient Peru*][2] (also the source of the above quotations). I wish I could tell you more about the myth, but I haven't done any research into South American mythology (yet).&#xA;&#xA;I hope this is helpful, and I wish you the best of luck with your research. I've been less rigorous with my sources in this answer because this is a myth identification question, and I'm just trying to point you in a few potentially useful directions (as opposed to explaining something in detail). &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.amazon.com/Aztec-Thought-Culture-Civilization-American/dp/0806122951&#xA;  [2]: http://www.amazon.com/Black-Rainbow-Legends-Incas-Ancient/dp/0374308292" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21282" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="626" RevisionGUID="9a96ba2d-70a4-465e-a14d-74b7fec4856d" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In [Aron Pinker's article &quot;A Goat for Azazel&quot;](http://www.jhsonline.org/Articles/article_69.pdf), in the Journal of Hewbrew Scriptures, he suggests Azazel (עזאזל), was originally it's homophone עזזאל, or &quot;Powerful God&quot;, residing in the desert.  In effect, both goats would be offered to the same God, in two different aspects and locations.&#xA;&#xA;He concludes as follows:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Jewish tradition associates the outstanding manifestations or attributes of God with the deity’s various names. Thus with יהוה is associated “mercy,” with אלהים “justice,” with שלום “peace,” etc. It has been shown that significant evidence suggests that biblical עזאזל was originally the homophone עזזאל “Powerful God,” whose abode on earth was in the desert. Perhaps, עזזאל was associated with the deity’s attribute of strength, explaining the coming of the deity from the desert in theophanies.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The ritual described in Lev 16:5–26 was to the same God, potentially being at two locations—the Temple or the desert, and identified as יהוה and עזזאל respectively. This would explain the meticulous rite of ensuring sameness of sacrifice and leaving the final pick of the scapegoat to God via the procedure of a lot. On the unique Day of Atonement God (as יהוה and עזזאל ) was approached at both locations, there could not be even the slightest show of preference.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; In later times, God’s abode in the Temple or Jerusalem completely displaced God’s desert abode, relegating it to evil forces as was the belief in Near-Eastern cultures. In this process עזזאל , or a derivative of this name, became a satanic figure.&#xA;&#xA;This is hardly the only available interpretation, but he makes a very compelling, and well-supported, case." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21283" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="986" RevisionGUID="b66f0cef-32d5-4682-bdd1-75bb4b0671df" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Short answer, no. There is no writing, inscription, artwork, statuary, or anything that indicates Horus (or Osiris) was crucified.&#xA;&#xA;There is death and resurrection in Horus' story, though. The Metternich Stele relates the story of Horus dying by the sting of a scorpion. Budge has a nice summary:&#xA;&#xA;[THE LEGEND OF THE DEATH AND RESURRECTION OF HORUS, AND OTHER MAGICAL TEXTS.](http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/leg/leg11.htm)&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Now soon after Isis had restored to life the son of the woman who had shown churlishness to her, a terrible calamity fell upon her, for her beloved son Horus was stung by a scorpion and died. The news of this event was conveyed to her by the gods, who cried out to her to come to see her son Horus, whom the terrible scorpion Uhat had killed. Isis, stabbed with pain at the news, as if a knife had been driven into her body, ran out distraught with grief. It seems that she had gone to perform a religious ceremony in honour of Osiris in a temple near Hetep-hemt, leaving her child carefully concealed in Sekhet-An. During her absence the scorpion Uhat, which had been sent by Set, forced its way into the biding-place of Horus, and there stung him to death. When Isis came and found the dead body, she burst forth in lamentations, the sound of which brought all the people from the neighbouring districts to her side.&#xA;&#xA;A little bit later: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Then he came to Isis and told her that no harm could possibly have happened to Horus, for he was under the protection of the Boat of Ra; but his words failed to comfort Isis, and though she acknowledged the greatness of his designs, she complained that they savoured of delay. &quot;What is the good,&quot; she asks, &quot;of all thy spells, and incantations, and magical formulae, and the great command of maa-kheru, if Horus is to perish by the poison of a scorpion, and to lie here in the arms of Death? Evil, evil is his destiny, for it hath entailed the deepest misery for him and death.&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; In answer to these words Thoth, turning to Isis and Nephthys, bade them to fear not, and to have no anxiety about Horus, &quot;For,&quot; said he, &quot;I have come from heaven to heal the child for his mother.&quot; He then pointed out that Horus was under protection as the Dweller in his Disk (Aten), the Great Dwarf, the Mighty Ram, the Great Hawk, the Holy Beetle, the Hidden Body, the Divine Bennu, etc., and proceeded to utter the great spell which restored Horus to life.&#xA;&#xA;Thinking of Horus as a prefiguration of Jesus Christ is a clear-cut case of [parallelomania](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&amp;rct=j&amp;q=&amp;esrc=s&amp;source=web&amp;cd=2&amp;cad=rja&amp;uact=8&amp;ved=0CCUQFjAB&amp;url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sbl-site.org%2Fassets%2Fpdfs%2Fpresidentialaddresses%2FJBL81_1_1Sandmel1961.pdf&amp;ei=OiuSVZSpM4na-QGc36uYDA&amp;usg=AFQjCNGryVzi_dnulla8QCrdTwahuEXf1w&amp;sig2=2PNWTsY81EwboxzU4iN62A&amp;bvm=bv.96783405,d.cWw) (warning: PDF). Unfortunately, with &quot;researchers&quot; like Acharya S., sometimes the faint parallels (death and revival) become the overarching theme, hiding away any (especially major!)  differences, and twists the rest of the narrative to fit. For example, this was not related to any divine soul-saving god, but rather to ancient Egyptian (religiously-based) medical practices. See Nunn 2002 _Ancient Egyptian Medicine_ [pp. 108–109](https://books.google.com/books?id=WHfEnVU6z8IC&amp;pg=PA108)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21284" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1000" RevisionGUID="c001a791-6f18-40f5-a4c1-0b4d897d6604" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="[The excellent answer][1] by HDE mentions the Chinese dragon from 4700-2900BC, but did not explore further. This answer will attempt to source the claim for the Chinese dragon, which is arguably older and more complete than the Sumerian dragon.&#xA;&#xA;A photo of the dragon, made from clams embedded within sandstone, can be [found here][2]: &#xA;![enter image description here][3]&#xA;&#xA;&gt; 1987年在河南省濮陽縣西水坡仰韶文化遺址發現的用蚌殼堆積的龍形圖案，距今已有6000多年，被考古界譽為“中華第一龍”（2006年9月26日攝）。新華社&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The dragon-shaped artwork found in 1987 in Henan Province, Puyang District in the Yang Shao culture ruins is more than 6000 years old. Archaeologists have named it &quot;The First Chinese Dragon&quot;. Photo credit Xinhua, 2006 September 26. &#xA;&#xA;The history of this dragon sculpture is described in greater detail [here][4]:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; 1986年，境内出土的石磨盘、石磨棒、三足陶等裴李岗文化典型器物证明，七、八千年前这里已有人类活动。1987年，在濮阳西水坡发掘出三组蚌砌龙、虎图墓葬。据测定，其年代距今6400年左右，蚌壳龙被考古界公认为“中华第一龙”。&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; In 1986, millstones, pestles, and pottery showed that the Fei Li Ridge culture has existed in Puyang since 7000-8000 years ago. In 1987, three groups of burial art depicting dragons and tigers were found in Xishuipo, Puyang. They were dated to 6400 years ago; the clamshell dragon was unanimously recognised by archaeologists as &quot;The First Chinese Dragon&quot;. &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/976/501&#xA;  [2]: http://hk.crntt.com/doc/1019/9/3/5/101993521_2.html?coluid=7&amp;kindid=0&amp;docid=101993521&amp;mdate=0129171341&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/TV8GK.jpg&#xA;  [4]: http://cul.shangdu.com/hnwh/20110621/273_344681.shtml" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21285" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1027" RevisionGUID="eef018d2-52a6-4f25-82cf-d60199d002c1" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="(Note: this &quot;Lady of the Lake&quot; is different from the [tag:Arthurian] &quot;Lady of the Lake.&quot;)&#xA;&#xA;In the welsh story associated with [the lake Llyn y Fan Fach][1], Gwyn attempts to woo the &quot;Lady of the Lake&quot; by giving her bread.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; He stood on the brink, gazing fixedly at the maiden, and straightway knew that he loved her. As he gazed, he unconsciously held out to her the barley-bread and cheese which his mother had given him before he left home. The lady gradually glided towards him, but shook her head as he continued to hold out his hand, and saying:  &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;  O thou of the crimped bread,  &#xA;&gt;  It is not easy to catch me,&#xA;&#xA;(Thomas, Jenkin, The Welsh Fairy Book [[available online][2]].)&#xA;&#xA;Gwyn tries to woo her with completely baked bread and with unbaked dough. Neither attempt is successful. However, when he uses half baked bread, he is successful:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The shades of night began to fall, and Gwyn was about to depart in sore disappointment, when, casting a last farewell look over the lake, he beheld some cows walking on its surface. The sight of these beasts made him hope that they would be followed by the Lady of the Lake, and, sure enough, before long the maiden emerged from the water. She seemed lovelier than ever, and Gwyn was almost beside himself with joy at her appearance. His rapture increased when he saw that she was gradually approaching the land, and he rushed into the water to meet her, holding out the half-baked bread in his hand. She, smiling, took his gift, and allowed him to lead her to dry land. &#xA;&#xA;What's so special about half baked bread?&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llyn_y_Fan_Fach&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/wfb/wfb03.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21286" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1030" RevisionGUID="dee58ef2-6f9d-464c-8f55-b0a611dcb096" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="It turns out that characters with multiple pupils in their eyes are somewhat common in Irish literature (such characters sometimes appear in non-Irish works as well). However, the meaning of this varies between characters. &#xA;&#xA;In some instances, having multiple pupils is a sign that the character has an &quot;evil eye.&quot; For example, in the Togail Bruidne Da Derga (The Destruction of Da Derga's Hostel), a character with multiple pupils causes a juggler to drop his objects:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; A man ungentle, huge, fearful, uncouth was Ingcél. A single eye in his head, as broad as an oxhide, as black as a chafer, with three pupils therein.&#xA;&#xA;...&#xA;&#xA;&gt; When he was swiftest, I beheld him at the feat, and as I looked, they uttered a cry about him and they were all on the house-floor. Then the Prince who is in the house said to the juggler: ‘We have come together since thou wast a little boy, and till to-night thy juggling never failed thee.’’&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; ‘Alas, alas, fair master Conaire, good cause have I. A keen, angry eye looked at me: a man with the third of a pupil which sees the going of the nine bands. Not much to him is that keen, wrathful sight! Battles are fought with it,’ saith he. ‘It should be known till doomsday that there is evil in front of the Hostel.’&#xA;&#xA;([Online translation of The Destruction of Da Derga's Hostel][1])&#xA;&#xA;However, in works like the Táin Bó Cúalnge, having multiple pupils can be a sign of beauty or supernatural sight (or both). To quote from this fantastic paper titled ['The Evil Eye' in early Irish literature and law][2] (which is essentially the source for this entire answer):&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The version that Ingcél has seven pupils in his eye has a parallel&#xA;in descriptions of Cormac mac Airt and Cú Chulainn: they are&#xA;said to have seven pupils in each eye. In both cases, this is explictly&#xA;qualified as a sign of beauty. In Táin Bó Cúailnge Recension I, two of&#xA;Cú Chulainn’s pupils are described as squinting, but the text supplies the&#xA;comment that this was more an adornment than a disfigurement. The&#xA;tradition of three pupils in Ingcél’s eye could be compared with another&#xA;instance in Táin Bó Cúailnge Recension I: after the description of the&#xA;poetess and prophetess Fedelm as a beautiful woman, it is said that she&#xA;carries a weaver’s beam and has three pupils in each eye. There is no&#xA;explanation offered of this characteristic: it could be a sign of beauty&#xA;and it could be a sign of her supernatural sight. The latter is more&#xA;probable, because the characteristic is separated from the description of&#xA;her looks by the mention of the weaver’s beam. The weaver’s beam has&#xA;been interpreted as a supernatural tool for prophesy. The triple pupils&#xA;could, therefore, very well be a symbol of her clairvoyance.&#xA;&#xA;(Borsje, Jacqueline; Kelly, Fergus: ['The evil eye' in early Irish literature and law.][2])&#xA;&#xA;In summery, depending on the character and story, having multiple pupils is associated with (rarely) beauty, sharp site (i.e. clairvoyance), or destruction (i.e. &quot;the evil eye&quot;). However, I think you can connect those &quot;symptoms&quot; back to the evil eye; for example, being able to see the future/see well is one of the characteristics of having the evil eye, although in the Táin it's portrayed more positively. &#xA;&#xA;If you're interested in learning more, I highly recommend that you take a look at [the paper I cited about the evil eye][2]: it's very interesting and connects the phenomenon to Irish law and a variety of non-Irish texts.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T301017A.html&#xA;  [2]: http://bill.celt.dias.ie/vol4/displayObject.php?TreeID=1001" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21287" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1031" RevisionGUID="a7da6058-987c-4d83-97df-dac7f9c018ef" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Sorry for referencing [wiki][1], but I don't have better source. I've just remembered this during reading of this question.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; In a late version of the Medusa myth, related by the Roman poet Ovid (Metamorphoses 4.770), Medusa was originally a ravishingly beautiful maiden, &quot;the jealous aspiration of many suitors,&quot; but because Poseidon had raped her in Athena's temple, the enraged Athena transformed Medusa's beautiful hair to serpents and made her face so terrible to behold that the mere sight of it would turn onlookers to stone.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; In Ovid's telling, Perseus describes Medusa's punishment by Minerva (Athena) as just and well earned.&#xA;&#xA;So if I assume right, not in all her life was Medusa &quot;able&quot; to turn anybody into stone. If she had given born to Casus before her transformation, he didn't have to be &quot;shielded&quot;.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medusa" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21288" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1038" RevisionGUID="234ca45f-a1a5-424b-a807-f371f474e24b" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="We definitely know the motivation for disclosing the dragon: it was disclosed to build a tower. I don't know about the disclosure of the bones: that's going to take some more research (I'll update my answer if I find an answer).&#xA;&#xA;# Dragons&#xA;&#xA;The story of the *concealing* of the dragons is recounted in the Welsh tale [Llud a Llefelys][1]:&#xA;&#xA;&gt;  &quot;And the second plague,&quot; said he, &quot; that is in thy dominion, behold it is a dragon. And another dragon of a foreign race is fighting with it, and striving to overcome it. And therefore does your dragon make a fearful outcry. And on this wise mayest thou come to know this. After thou hast returned home, cause the Island to be measured in its length and breadth, and in the place where thou dost find the exact central point, there cause a pit to be dug, and cause a cauldron full of the best mead that can be made to be put in the pit, with a covering of satin over the face of the cauldron. And then, in thine own person do thou remain there watching, and thou wilt see the dragons fighting in the form of terrific animals. And at length they will take the form of dragons in the air. And last of all, after wearying themselves with fierce and furious fighting, they will fall in the form of two pigs upon the covering, and they will sink in, and the covering with them, and they will draw it down to the very bottom of the cauldron. And they will drink up the whole of the mead; and after that they will sleep. Thereupon do thou immediately fold the covering around them, and bury them in a kistvaen, in the strongest place thou hast in thy dominions, and hide them in the earth. And as long as they shall bide in that strong place no plague shall come to the Island of Britain from elsewhere.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;And the story of their &quot;[disclosure&quot; is given both in Nennius' Historia Brittonum][2] and in [Geoffrey of Monmouth's Historia Regum][3]. I'm going to quote from Geoffrey because I find it easier to follow:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Unto whom spake Merlin: 'Know ye not what it is that doth hinder the foundation being laid of this tower? Ye have given counsel that the mortar thereof should be slacked of my blood, that so the tower should stand forthwith. Now tell me, what is it that lieth hid beneath the foundation, for somewhat is there that doth not allow it to stand?' But the wizards were adread and held their peace. Then saith Merlin, that is also called Ambrosius: 'My lord the King, call thy workmen and bid delve the soil, and a pool shalt thou find beneath it that doth forbid thy tower to stand.' And when this was done, straightway a pool was found under the earth, the which had made the soil unconstant. Then Ambrosius Merlin again came nigh unto the wizards and saith: 'Tell me now, ye lying flatterers, what is it that is under the pool?' But they were all dumb and answered&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; {p. 169}&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; {marg The magicians dumbfounded}unto him never a word. And again spake he unto the King, saying: 'Command, O King, that the pool be drained by conduits, and in the bottom thereof shalt thou behold two hollow stones and therein two dragons asleep.' The King, believing his words for that he had spoken true as touching the pool, commanded also that the pool should be drained. And when he found that it was even as Merlin had said he marvelled greatly. All they that stood by were no less astonished at such wisdom being found in him, deeming that he was possessed of some spirit of God.&#xA;&#xA;# Additional Commentary&#xA;&#xA;As a bonus, here's some additional commentary on the triad. First, Will Parker discusses the purpose of the triads:&#xA;&#xA;&gt;  Finally, the burial of the fighting dragons at the end of this episodes recalls the talismanic concealment of Bendigeidfrân’s mortal remains at the end of the Second Branch, or those of Gwrthefyr as described in the Historia. The subsequent unearthing of these protective talismans is often lamented in the Welsh tradition, and is often used to explain why later generations were unable to resist the threatening gormesoedd as effectively as their mythological ancestors. As such, these ‘fortunate concealments’ and ‘unfortunate disclosures’ play an important part in the meta-narrative of sovereignty, loss and eventual restoration which we have seen played such a central role in Medievel Welsh historiography. &#xA;&#xA;(Will Parker, [Mabinogion.info][4])&#xA;&#xA;And here's a quote discussion the inclusion of a dragon burial into the triad we're discussing:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; As Ifor Willaims showed, the story of the burial of the dragons as given in Lludd a Llefelys is so closely dependent on HB's account of their disclosure as to indicate that this tale was invented subsequently to the ninth-century redaction of HB. Is it possible that in the triad the burial of the dragons has supplanted a third story of human talismanic burial? &#xA;&#xA;([Trioedd Ynys Prydein: The Triads of the Island of Britain][book]. This is the canonical source of information about the triads. I would buy the book, but it's incredibly expensive.)&#xA;&#xA;[book]: https://books.google.com/books?id=V2muBwAAQBAJ&amp;dq=trioedd+ynys+prydein+the+welsh+triads+buy&amp;source=gbs_navlinks_s&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/lludd.html#1&#xA;  [2]: http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/n03.html#52&#xA;  [3]: http://sacred-texts.com/neu/eng/gem/index.htm&#xA;  [4]: http://mabinogion.info/llud.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21289" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1045" RevisionGUID="0c71e7ef-40ed-431c-bf2f-4442566c72d1" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="### It's a relatively new addition to the vampire mythos. Attributed to [Bram Stoker's Dracula][1].&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&gt;Despite its important contributions to vampire fiction, several popular traits of fictional vampires are absent. Count Dracula is killed by a bowie knife, not a wooden stake. The destruction of the vampire Lucy is a three-part process (staking, decapitation, and garlic in the mouth), not the simple stake-only procedure often found in later vampire stories. Dracula has the ability to travel as a mist and to scale the external walls of his castle. **One very famous trait Stoker added is the inability to be seen in mirrors, which is not something found in traditional Eastern European folklore**.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://dracula.cc/literature/bram_stoker_dracula/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21290" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="996" RevisionGUID="149514cf-8f41-43a6-a34b-a9b9be2a8362" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="I'm not an Operating Thetan either, nor do I want to be. Fortunately, those of us who aren't permitted to be in the know do have access to some documents, including the [Fishman Affidavit](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fishman_Affidavit). I worked off of the transcript/analysis [here](http://www.spaink.net/fishman/index2.html).&#xA;&#xA;Quoting [an analysis of OT III material, from the Affidavit](http://www.spaink.net/fishman/ot3.html),&#xA;&gt; Let's turn to Incident II, which allegedly happened 75 million years ago and occurred on earth:&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &gt; Incident II is over 36 days long. Capture on other planets was weeks or months before the implant. Those on Teegeeack (Earth) were just blown up except for Loyal officers who were (shortly before the explosion on Earth) rounded up. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; L. Ron Hubbard, OT III, p. 79.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; So Xenu captured everybody who did not live on earth, held them imprisoned for a few weeks or sometimes even months, and then transported them to earth and mixed them with the rest, that is: the people who did live there. He then proceeded to nuke the lot. Just a few loyal officers escaped this major hydrogen bombing.&#xA;&#xA;Not everyone was killed. That leaves a loophole for the direct survival of some non-thetan beings.&#xA;&#xA;Also important, however, is [the relationship between thetans and death](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thetan#Thetans_and_death). Quoting from [the linked article](http://www.latimes.com/local/la-scientologysidea062490-story.html#page=1),&#xA;&gt; Hubbard said that when a person dies, his or her thetan goes to a &quot;landing station&quot; on Venus, where it is programmed with lies about its past life and its next life.&#xA;&#xA;A better explanation of the relationship between thetans and humans is quoted in the OT III analysis:&#xA;&gt; &gt; One's body is a mass of individual thetans stuck to oneself or to the body. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Margery Wakefield, The Road to Xenu, p. 77.&#xA;&#xA;If we go back to [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_opera_in_Scientology#Narratives_and_civilizations),&#xA;&gt; Eventually, officers of the Galactic Confederacy launched a rebellion against Xenu, which continued six years before capturing him and placing him in an electrified prison in the center of a mountain. Hubbard taught that the thetans brainwashed by Xenu's forces remained on Earth, where the &quot;body thetans&quot;, attached to human psyches, contribute to human problems; and that individuals could be freed from these brainwashed thetans and thus attain a type of salvation.&#xA;&#xA;Better text (from the  OT III analysis) is&#xA;&gt; &gt; When through with his crime loyal officers (to the people) captured him after six years of battle and put him in an electronic mountain trap where he still is. &quot;They&quot; are gone. The place (Confederation) has since been a desert. The length and brutality of it all was such that this Confederation never recovered. The implant is calculated to kill (by pneumonia etc) anyone who attempts to solve it. This liability has been dispensed with by my tech development. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Margery Wakefield, The Road to Xenu, p. 76.&#xA;&#xA;Note that this mountain is not on Earth, but another planet.&#xA;&#xA;So, there's no explicit description of the &quot;rebirth of humankind&quot; aside from what is given in the Fishman Affidavit." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21291" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1349" RevisionGUID="214aa47c-b12e-485d-b9ee-6478772c4b89" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="[Theoi][1] has quite the list.&#xA;&#xA;**SYMBOLS**&#xA;&#xA; - Crown, Lotus-staff, Cuckoo&#xA;&#xA;**ATTRIBUTES**&#xA;&#xA; - Lotus-staff; Crown; Cuckoo; Peacock; Pomegranate&#xA;&#xA;**&lt;strike&gt;CHARIOTS&lt;/strike&gt;** Who cares?&#xA;&#xA;**SACRED PLANTS**&#xA;&#xA; - Pomegranate, Lotus/Waterlily, Willow&#xA;&#xA;**SACRED ANIMALS**&#xA;&#xA; - Heifer, Lion&#xA;&#xA;**SACRED BIRDS**&#xA;&#xA;- Cuckoo, Peacock, Wide Winged Hawk, and Crane&#xA;&#xA;**SACRED PLANET**&#xA;&#xA;- Venus&#xA;&#xA;She even stole another goddess' Planet.&#xA;&#xA;Is there a tangible reason why she has so many symbols and sacred stuff? &#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Summary/Hera.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21292" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="613" RevisionGUID="09976261-a098-43db-825b-c8109f03ced2" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="This isn't about politics; Mukiti is a nature spirit (or whatever the analogous term is in Nyanga folklore) who took Iyangura away from the ordinary world and doesn't want her to go back.&#xA;&#xA;The first piece of evidence is that Mukiti is a somewhat supernatural snake (I didn't mention this in the question because I didn't understand the implications):&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Close to the village of Shemwindo [Mwindo's father] there was a river in which there was a pool, and in this pool there was a water serpent, master of the unfathomable. In his dwelling place, in the pool, Mukiti heard the news that downstream from him there was a chief who had a sister called Iyangura.&#xA;&#xA;(all quotes are from *A Treasury of African Folklore*, the same source of the quotes in the question.)&#xA;&#xA;The second piece of evidence is that once Mukiti marries Iyangura, he traps her in his village while he returns to his supernatural pool. This has nothing to do with Mwindo, who isn't even born yet:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; [Mukiti] made a proclamation  saying &quot;You, all my people, if one day you see a man going downstream, then you will tear out his spinal column, you Banamaka, Banabirurmba, Banankomo, Banatubusa, and Banampongo; however, this path here which follows the flow of the river, it is the great path on which all people pass.&quot; &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; After he had passed this interdiction regarding these two paths, and while in his village there lives his Shemwami called Kasiyembe, Mukiti told his big headman Kasiyembe: &quot;You, go to dwell with my wife Iyangura at the borders of the pool; and I Mukiti shall from now on always reside here where all the dry leaves collect in flowing down, where all the fallen tree trunks are obstructed in the middle of the pool.&#xA;&#xA;I am still confused by the order about the &quot;path... which follows the flow of the river,&quot; but the rest seems clear to me. Mukiti has taken Iyangura to the edge of a supernatural pool, where he will live. He doesn't want anyone to take her from the supernatural world, so he has her live with his headman and instructs his subjects to stop people from approaching the village. I find it extraordinarily relevant that the pool is described as the place &quot;where all the dry leaves collect in flowing down&quot;: to me, it suggests that Mukiti and the pool are supernatural and exist at the center of the spiritual universe.&#xA;&#xA;Here are some quotes where Mwindo sings about how he will defeat Mukiti:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; For Mukiti shall I get out of my way?  &#xA;&gt; You see I am going to encounter Iyangura,  &#xA;&gt; Iyangury, sister of Shemwindo.  &#xA;&gt; Mukiti, you are powerless against Mwindo.  &#xA;&gt; Mwindo is the Little-one-just-born-he-walked.  &#xA;&#xA;This is an interesting story, but unfortunately the book I'm reading it from cuts the story off shortly after Mwindo meets his aunt. I'm going to have to get the full story from somewhere (the book I'm reading excerpts it from *The Mwindo Epic*, translated and edited by Daniel Biebuyck and Kohombo Mateene)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21293" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="602" RevisionGUID="7c297b23-1d98-4090-8a06-1df45ff9569d" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="You have two questions here. I'll start with the straightforward part first. &#xA;&#xA;## Which El is the El referred to in the Legend of Keret?&#xA;&#xA;The [Legend of Keret](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend_of_Keret#cite_note-1), discovered in modern Ras Shamra, is from the late bronze age. It's the right age and the right part of the world to be referring to [El](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)) from the [Ancient Canaanite religion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanite_religion). &#xA;&#xA;&gt; It has been suggested that the poem was composed to glorify King Niqmad of Ugarit by giving him a deified ancester, the Keret, King of Hubur, who is the subjectof this poem. The mythological element is sufficiently prominent to justify its inclusion in an account of **Canaanite mythology.**&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Middle Eastern Mythology, S. H. Hooke, 88](http://books.google.com/books?id=YSUnmTKWhtkC)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;## Is the Canaanite El the same deity as the Bible's Yahweh?&#xA;&#xA;This fascinating question of is a topic under much contention among historians of the period, but I found the most compelling argument from [John Day](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Day_(Old_Testament_scholar)):&#xA;&#xA;&gt; In the nineteenth century J. Wellhausen believed Yahweh to be the same as El, and more recently this has been particularly argued by F.M. Cross and J.C. de Moor. However, the following arguments may be brought against this. First, in the Ugaritic texts the god El is revealed to be wholly benevolent in nature, whereas Yahweh has a fierce as well as a kind side. Secondly, as T.N.D. Mettinger has rightly emphasized, the earliest evidence, such as that found in Judg. 5.4-5, associates Yahweh with the storm, which was not something with which El was connected at all. Rather, this is reminiscent of Baal. Thirdly, as for F.M. Cross's view that Yahweh was originally a part of El's cultic title, 'El who creates hosts' (*'il ḏū yahwī ṣaba'ōt*), this is pure speculation. The formula in question is nowhere attested, whether inside or outside the Bible. Cross's reasons for thinking that *yhwh ṣb't* cannot simply mean 'Lord of hosts', namely, that a proper name should not appear in the construct, is incorrect. Further *hyh (hwh)* is not attested in Hebrew in the hiphil ('cause to be', 'create'), though this is case in Aramaic and Syriac. Yahweh in any case more likely means 'he is' (qal) rather than 'he causes to be/creates' (hiphil): to suppose otherwise requires emendation of the Hebrew text in Exod. 3.14 (*'ehyeh*, 'I am'), which explains the name Yahweh. **I conclude, therefore, that El and Yahweh were originally distinct deities that became amalgamated.** This view was held as long ago as F.K. Movers, and has been argued since by scholars such as O. Eissfeldt and T.N.D. Mettinger.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan, John Day, 13-14](http://books.google.com/books?id=y-gfwlltlRwC)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;This section in the book is very well cited and I recommend following up on his different sources; it also goes on quite fascinatingly at some length, but to do so is outside the scope of this answer." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21294" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="290" RevisionGUID="c2009d11-b248-484f-a59a-4d8ab70b9fea" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="### Their association with [Bastet][1] coupled with their general usefulness in day to day life is the reason they were treated as they were&#xA;&#xA;Bastet was the goddess of more than just cats, she was also the goddess of fire and pregnant women _(an odd combination)_. &#xA;&#xA;Bastet was originally called [Mafdet][2] and was the [lion headed goddess][3] of judgement, justice, and execution. But as feelings towards cats changed, she became a much softer and beloved cat headed goddess.&#xA;&#xA;**[The cat][4]**, while a beloved household pet, was also a status symbol and in general an incredibly useful creature to have around :&#xA;&#xA;&gt;Praised for controlling vermin and its **ability to kill snakes such as cobras**, the domesticated cat became a symbol of grace and poise.&#xA;&#xA;They were _employed_ to protect royal granaries and food stores from rodents and snakes. If a cat was present anywhere, it was a certain sign of cleanliness and wealth.&#xA;&#xA;Interestingly, they were so beloved that :&#xA;&#xA;&gt;The export of cats from Egypt was so strictly prohibited that a branch of the government was formed solely to deal with this issue. Government agents were dispatched to other lands to find and return cats which had been smuggled out. It is clearly established that, by 450 BCE, **the penalty in Egypt for killing a cat was death**&#xA;&#xA;And of course, some were so revered they were eventually [mummified][5].&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.egyptianmyths.net/bastet.htm&#xA;  [2]: http://egyptian-gods.org/egyptian-gods-mafdet/&#xA;  [3]: http://www.landofpyramids.org/images/sekhmet-8.jpg&#xA;  [4]: http://www.ancient.eu/article/466/&#xA;  [5]: https://www.britishmuseum.org/images/ps289496_l.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21295" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="283" RevisionGUID="d33f65c0-4e2a-4666-bb24-97ad44b00d17" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="I was browsing Wikipedia and came upon three different variations for Ra's origins: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; - In the former version, a mound arises from the waters. An egg was laid upon this mound by a celestial bird. The egg contained Ra. In some variants, the egg is laid by a cosmic goose. However, the egg was also said to have been a gift from Thoth, and laid by an ibis, the bird with which he was associated. &#xA;&gt; - Later, when Atum had become assimilated into Ra as Atum-Ra, the belief that Atum emerged from a (blue) lotus bud, in the Ennead cosmogony, was adopted and attached to Ra. The lotus was said to have arisen from the waters after the explosive interaction as a bud, which floated on the surface, and slowly opened its petals to reveal the beetle, Khepri, inside. Khepri, an aspect of Ra representing the rising sun, immediately turns into a weeping boy – Nefertum, whose tears form the creatures of the earth.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Ogdoad: In Egyptian mythology](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogdoad#In_Egyptian_mythology)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; - Ptah is rarely mentioned in the literature of Old Kingdom pyramids. This is believed by some to be a result of the Ra-worshipping people of Heliopolis being the main writers of these inscriptions. Followers of Ra were known to be jealous of Ptah. While some believed that Ra is self-created, others believed that Ptah created him.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Ra: Rival gods](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra#Rival_gods)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Given Ra's popularity and central position in Egyptian mythology, I would have assumed his origin story would be somewhat standardized. Local variations are to be expected, of course, but I couldn't find any information on which one stood out - if any." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21296" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="274" RevisionGUID="0702887d-2b75-4ea9-9e02-3a5d63b583b7" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Nope. Not even close (okay, a little bit).&#xA;&#xA;According to my [source][1], the symbol is actually a star (just one). It looks kinda confusing like a solar system or a Sun. To make a Sun, you must at least meet this regulation for this type of art:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The sun symbol always has either four arms plus wavy lines extending from a &quot;ball&quot; in the middle, or it is a ball with wavy lines.  VA 243 has no wavy lines.  It does not depict the sun.&#xA;&#xA;In fact it is a star rather than our beloved Sun. As seen in the picture below, the picture you showed is a star as it has 6 - 8 points. This time it has 6 points. &lt;br&gt;&#xA;&gt;Caption: Below are examples of star symbols.  Stars could have 6, 7, or 8 pts in Sumero-Mesopotamian art (VA 243 has six):&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;![enter image description here][2]&#xA;&#xA;So your picture is a star, not a constellation. It represents a star in the sky, even the dots are part of the star.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]:http://www.michaelsheiser.com/va_243%20page.htm&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/wDGoz.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21297" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="258" RevisionGUID="7ef1a045-23ff-49b7-a29d-a7c10b97553f" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="It was looking _directly_ into Medusa's eyes that would turn a mortal to stone, not the whole of her face. Using the shield as a mirror meant that even if Medusa's gaze fell upon Perseus, it would be at an angle. Not that it mattered in the end, as Perseus was lucky enough to catch Medusa and her sisters sleeping:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; But the Gorgons had heads twined about with the scales of dragons, and great tusks like swine's, and brazen hands, and golden wings, by which they flew; and they turned to stone such as beheld them. So Perseus stood over them as they slept, and while Athena guided his hand and he looked with averted gaze on a brazen shield, in which he beheld the image of the Gorgon,5 he beheaded her. When her head was cut off, there sprang from the Gorgon the winged horse Pegasus and Chrysaor, the father of Geryon; these she had by Poseidon.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Apollod. 2.4.2](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D2%3Achapter%3D4%3Asection%3D2#note6)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;It should be noted, however, that Hesiod doesn't mention the shield at all: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; And again, Ceto bore to Phorcys the fair-cheeked Graiae, sisters grey from their birth: and both deathless gods and men who walk on earth call them Graiae, Pemphredo well-clad, and saffron-robed Enyo, and the Gorgons who dwell beyond glorious Ocean in the frontier land towards Night where are the clear-voiced Hesperides, Sthenno, and Euryale, and Medusa who suffered a woeful fate: she was mortal, but the two were undying and grew not old. With her lay the Dark-haired One in a soft meadow amid spring flowers. And when Perseus cut off her head, there sprang forth great Chrysaor and the horse Pegasus who is so called because he was born near the springs of Ocean; and that other, because he held a golden blade in his hands. Now Pegasus flew away and left the earth, the mother of flocks, and came to the deathless gods: and he dwells in the house of Zeus and brings to wise Zeus the thunder and lightning&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hes. Th. 280](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hes.%20Th.%20280&amp;lang=original)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21298" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="254" RevisionGUID="4558253c-c6ae-4b0c-afc7-ea5d8040b1cd" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The myth of dragons can be found in many different traditions, with the major two being the European dragon and the Chinese dragon.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; &quot;There are *two **distinct** cultural traditions* of dragons: the European&#xA;&gt; dragon, derived from European folk traditions and ultimately related&#xA;&gt; to Greek and Middle Eastern mythologies, and the Chinese dragon, with&#xA;&gt; counterparts in Japan (namely the Japanese dragon), Korea and other&#xA;&gt; East Asian countries&lt;sup&gt;[[1][1]]&lt;/sup&gt;.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;According to [Smithsonian][2], one theory behind this myth is the unearthing of dinosaur fossils:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Ancient people may have discovered dinosaur fossils and understandably&#xA;&gt; misinterpreted them as the remains of dragons. Chang Qu, a Chinese&#xA;&gt; historian from the 4th century B.C., mislabeled such a fossil in what&#xA;&gt; is now Sichuan Province.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;As you can see, the Chinese historian in the article discovered these dinosaur fossils in the 4th century B.C., however, when (and where) did the **earliest known myth of 'dragons'** originate?&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon#cite_note-1&#xA;  [2]: http://www.smithsonian.com/science-nature/where-did-dragons-come-from-23969126/#3MPFc6DsH7dCBMOV.99" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21299" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="241" RevisionGUID="80256cc6-7c4d-4893-ae88-9794d84c747b" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="[Plutarch][1] quotes [Philochorus][2] in Life of Theseus and tells us that (although the Cretans wouldn't admit it) the labyrinth was a normal prison: &#xA; &#xA;&gt; But Philochorus writeth, that the Cretans do not confess that, but say that this labyrinth was a gail or prison, in the which they had no other hurt, saving that they which were kept there under lock and key could not fly nor start away.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Plut. Thes.](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.03.0078%3Atext%3DThes.)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutarch&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philochorus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21300" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="240" RevisionGUID="b1e92079-6bf6-4776-9fdc-00acb26f8405" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="### It is a commonly held belief that The Labyrinth is in fact the [Palace of Knossos][1]&#xA;&#xA;The Labyrinth has been [described as][2] :&#xA;&#xA;&gt;... a maze-like building of winding corridors and complicated twists and turns, which confused anyone who entered it so much that he could not find the way out.&#xA;&#xA;Which could be considered an apt description of the palace.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;![enter image description here][3]&#xA;The Palace of Knossos&#xA;&#xA;And according to legend :&#xA;&#xA;&gt;Knossos itself was built by the architect Daedalus&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;![enter image description here][4]&#xA;&#xA;The Minoan building complex at Knossos, from the [excavations of Arthur Evans][5] (1851 – 1941) &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://ancient-greece.org/archaeology/knossos.html&#xA;  [2]: http://www.explorecrete.com/mythology/daedalus.html&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/khHaC.jpg&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/eE490.jpg&#xA;  [5]: https://quadriformisratio.wordpress.com/2013/07/01/an-eternal-way-of-confusion/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21301" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="232" RevisionGUID="6a7c2c70-e24a-46b0-89c7-33a42b58f5dc" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="### [Poseidon's][1] swaying character often embodies the same traits that the water he rules over displays. Towards Zeus, he is an ally and helpful at times, but can quickly become jealous and angry.&#xA;&#xA;Homer's **[The Iliad][2]**  provides the best source of information on the relationship between Poseidon and Zeus.&#xA;&#xA;In **[Book Eight][3]** :&#xA;&#xA;Poseidon's feelings towards Zeus change often (although jealousy is an ongoing theme), he tries to dethrone him in one story and in another, when Hera approaches him and requests aid him in overthrowing Zeus, Posidean angrily rejects her :&#xA;&#xA;&gt; &quot;But the Earth-Shaker growled at her in anger: 'Hera, mistress of babble that you are, what empty-headed talk is this? I would not dream of pitting all the rest of us against Lord Zeus. He overmasters all'&quot; &#xA;&#xA;But as a testament to Poseidon's unpredictable character, he almost immediately changes his mind and agrees to aid Hera in overthrowing Zeus :&#xA;&#xA;&gt;He agreed to go along with Hera's plot and she tricked Zeus, getting him to fall asleep on top of Mount Ida while Poseidon led the other gods in an attack against the Trojans.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://robertjamesreese.com/essays/a-history-of-poseidon&#xA;  [2]: http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.html&#xA;  [3]: http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.8.viii.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21302" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="231" RevisionGUID="6dc69add-b3df-4931-94f9-fb6c246e4997" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Well, Poseidon's relationship with Zeus was a rocky one. There have been instances where Poseidon is jealous about Zeus' position as the King of gods. However, the same instance is said to be inspired by a conflict of interests, as Poseidon was not satisfied with Zeus' rule. &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Poseidon took once part in a minor conspiracy in heaven; for he, along with Hera and Athena, had agreed to put Zeus in bonds. However, he was saved by Briareus (one of the HECATONCHEIRES), whom Achilles' mother Thetis had called to Zeus' rescue; and by just squatting down close to him and through the mere display of his force, Briareus frightened Poseidon and the goddesses away.  &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Source: http://www.igreekmythology.com/poseidon.html#L1&lt;/sup&gt;&#xA;&#xA;But, his views towards Zeus was not always filled with jealousy. There have been times when Poseidon helped Zeus with his troubles and also fought beside him.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; He allied himself with Zeus in the battles against the Giants and repeatedly helped Zeus’s lovers. For example, he calmed the sea so Zeus, disguised as a bull, could cross it with Europa. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Source: [Mythology 101: From Gods and Goddesses to Monsters and Mortals, Your Guide to Ancient Mythology](https://books.google.co.in/books?id=7x9EAgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA73&amp;lpg=PA73&amp;dq=poseidon+conspired+against+Zeus&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=VpWgrhJiWv&amp;sig=-6szBPKYyTd1m6C2kVmVKobAinI&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=7fpBVf32DsHYmAWPzYHgDA&amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;q=poseidon%20conspired%20against%20Zeus&amp;f=false)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Looking into the case more deeply, Poseidon was not overly jealous of his younger brother and had a sense of respect towards him.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; In Book Eight, Hera comes to Poseidon and asks him to join forces with her against Zeus, who is aiding the Trojans. His response displays the way in which his attitudes can change quickly. &quot;But the Earth-Shaker growled at her in anger: 'Hera, mistress of babble that you are, what empty-headed talk is this? I would not dream of pitting all the rest of us against Lord Zeus. He overmasters all'&quot; (188). Poseidon had recently attempted to dethrone Zeus on his own, but now became angered at Hera for even mentioning the idea. He switches his opinion again soon after this, however. In Book Thirteen, he chooses to disregard Zeus' orders to stay out of the combat and intervenes on behalf of the Achaeans. &quot;Rancor within him deepened against Zeus… from the deep water, girdler of earth and shaker of earth, Poseidon came to arouse new spirit in the Argives&quot; (300). He went from conspiring against Zeus, to anger at the mere mention of opposing Zeus, and back to opposing Zeus himself. **Poseidon's attitudes towards Zeus here are not solid. Instead, they shift and sway, much like water does**.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Source: [A History of Poseidon by Robert James Reese, 2002](http://robertjamesreese.com/essays/a-history-of-poseidon)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xA;&#xA;----&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Further reading: http://www.maicar.com/GML/Poseidon.html&lt;/sup&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21303" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="218" RevisionGUID="1c8709cc-e080-4757-8ad7-8b646eb908c4" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In Greek mythology there was this ancient robot like (or god like) creature named Talos who was responsible for protecting Crete. &#xA;&#xA;![enter image description here][1]&#xA;&#xA;In the Image above we can see depicted the death of Talos. But who killed him? How and why was he murdered?&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Q66aS.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21304" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="210" RevisionGUID="4f20808c-561c-4270-9f46-0e2e6b22ef6a" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Sisyphus punishment, to roll a rock on top of a moutain forever, is said to have been given because of his trickery with Thanatos. &#xA;&#xA;However, it seems that the reason behind this punishment was not explicitely stated : [French Wikipedia](http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphe) states on the subject this.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Toutefois, Homère ne faisait pas mention de la raison de ce châtiment. Certaines traditions le justifient par la réputation de brigand et de malfaiteur que Sisyphe avait acquise de son vivant.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; However, Homer did not mention the reason of the punishment. Certain traditions justify it by [Sisyphus's] reputation of a criminal and wrongdoer that [he] has developed during his life.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;So **what was the reason behind the punishment?** And what is **the source behind the reason being the trickery with Thanatos**, as explained in the English Wikipedia?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21305" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="198" RevisionGUID="5fa13d4b-6498-4226-bd2d-c4ffa5a1608e" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="### [Loki][1] is an anomaly, [his parents][2] were a giant, Fárbauti, and a goddess (or possibly a giantess, we don't know for sure) Laufey.&#xA;&#xA;_(I can't find any decent images of either Fárbauti or Laufey)_&#xA;&#xA;Loki was originally considered a fire deity, before becoming the trickster we know him as. Farbauti means 'fierce strike' and Laufey means 'pine needles'. So his birth was the result of lightening striking 'pine needles', or the forest.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;As you say, he is indeed a shapeshifter, in fact he is the [_mother_][3] of Odin's horse [Sleipnir][4], whom he gave birth to after shapshifting into a mare and breeding with [Svaðilfari][5] .&#xA;&#xA;But as an Asgardian male, he also regularly mated with Asgardians and giants, the offspring of these pairings were all manner of creatures.&#xA;&#xA;For example with the giantess [Angrboða][7] he fathered :&#xA;&#xA; - [Fenrir][8], the great wolf who kills Odin during the events of Ragnarök&#xA; - [Jormungandar][9], the great serpent whom is so large his body emcompasses the entire planet&#xA; - [Hel][10], the half dead goddess&#xA;&#xA;It really seems as if Loki is a shapeshifter in the truest sense of the word and takes whatever form suites him best at the time. &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/the-aesir-gods-and-goddesses/loki/&#xA;  [2]: http://loki-in-myth.tumblr.com/post/29634916739/creation-to-lokis-conception&#xA;  [3]: http://norse-mythology.org/tales/the-fortification-of-asgard/&#xA;  [4]: http://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/others/sleipnir/&#xA;  [5]: http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/mythology/myths/text/wall_of_asgard.htm&#xA;  [6]: http://feminismandreligion.com/2012/08/22/angrboda-her-children-and-our-shadow-selves-by-deanne-quarrie/&#xA;  [7]: http://feminismandreligion.com/2012/08/22/angrboda-her-children-and-our-shadow-selves-by-deanne-quarrie/&#xA;  [8]: http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/209/0/9/FENRIR_by_pamansazz.jpg&#xA;  [9]: http://25.media.tumblr.com/2a5f952941bf3e98f4126b0535a7c041/tumblr_ml7s4byGbF1rqbtm2o1_1280.jpg&#xA;  [10]: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-aswvRluFlZA/TtpiGeAZCDI/AAAAAAAAAno/GCO3NMuhE_4/s1600/Hel%2Bpost.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21306" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="197" RevisionGUID="f53d101f-f941-4d33-b147-801cd8aa0586" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="On the Wikipage of Mjölnir, it is said to be made by the dwarves Eitri and Brokkr. Wikipedia also states that they created other items for the gods. Those items being: Skidbladnir, the ship of Freyr, Mjölnir, Draupnir and Gungnir.&#xA;&#xA;Wiki Quotes:&#xA;&gt;&quot;the Sons of Ivaldi are a group of dwarfs who fashion Skidbladnir, the ship of Freyr, and the Gungnir, the spear of Odin, as well as golden hair for Sif to replace what Loki had cut off.&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Eitri succeeded in making the golden boar Gullinbursti, the golden ring Draupnir, and the hammer Mjöllnir.&quot; &#xA;&#xA;My question being, are there any other items that the dwarves made for the gods of the Norse mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21307" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="182" RevisionGUID="89fea9d0-2fac-4d03-b195-43d7fbd64574" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="On the [Wikipedia page][1] we can read:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; In Babylonian astronomy, the constellation was listed in the MUL.APIN as GU4.AN.NA, &quot;The Bull of Heaven&quot;.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; In the Mesopotamian Epic of Gilgamesh, one of the earliest works of literature, the goddess Ishtar sends Taurus, the Bull of Heaven, to kill Gilgamesh for spurning her advances.&#xA;&#xA;But still it's not clear enough for me.&#xA;&#xA;Does this mean Taurus constellation (zodiac sign) was named after the Bull of Heaven? Or it's just a coincidence?&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurus_(constellation)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21308" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="299" RevisionGUID="8bd49922-bb5f-4fa5-a060-fa92cd037570" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="### It was an especially cruel and specific punishment for [Medusa][1] as she was known for her beautiful golden hair &#xA;&#xA;Medusa's transformation from a beautiful golden haired priestess of Athena to not-so-beautiful Gorgon [snake-lady][2] was not instant, is was a gradual and drawn out punishment:&#xA;&#xA;&gt;She was originally a golden-haired, fair maiden, who, as a priestess of Athena, was devoted to a life of celibacy; however, after being wooed by Poseidon and falling for him, she forgot her vows and married him. For this offence, **she was punished by the goddess in a most terrible manner. Each wavy lock of the beautiful hair that had charmed her husband was changed into a venomous snake**;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.greekmythology.com/Myths/Creatures/Medusa/medusa.html&#xA;  [2]: http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs37/f/2008/285/0/c/Medusa_by_GENZOMAN.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21309" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="177" RevisionGUID="2586c616-85bb-4f0d-baaf-36b54ea5ece9" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="I don't think that the number 12 symbolized everything, as there are occurrence of other numbers in various stories. Odysseus sailed for 9 days with the gift of Favorable Winds from Aeolus, god of wind and on the 10th day, the bag was opened as he saw Ithaka for on the horizon.&#xA;&#xA;Dimitra searched for her daughter for 9 days and on the tenth day, she discovered she had been taken to the underworld,&#xA;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Demeter wandered about in search of her daughter for nine days, without taking any nectar or ambrosia, and without bathing.&quot; &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;source: [Theoi article on Demeter][1]&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xA;&#xA;But 12 does seem to be associated with a harmonious state. Different cultures have different views on the same numbers. [Some cultures][2] see number '6' as a positive sign. &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Demeter.html&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbers_in_Chinese_culture#Six" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21310" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="152" RevisionGUID="4ed5f6ff-302f-43cc-af52-c295eea5f062" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="I believe it may be the Tritons, but there are probably other part-fish, part-humans. Plus, there was a fish-headed god in antiquity (not greco-roman).&#xA;&#xA;A side note is that there were some mistranslations and some of the &quot;sirens&quot; in Greek tales were half-birds and not half-fish (i.e., harpies and not mermaids).&#xA;&#xA;&gt;&quot;In Greek mythology, the Sirens were three dangerous bird-women, portrayed as seductresses who lured nearby sailors with their enchanting music and voices to shipwreck on the rocky coast of their island. Roman poets placed them on an island called Sirenum scopuli. In some later, rationalized traditions, the literal geography of the &quot;flowery&quot; island of Anthemoessa, or Anthemusa, is fixed: sometimes on Cape Pelorum and at others in the islands known as the Sirenuse, near Paestum, or in Capreae. All such locations were surrounded by cliffs and rocks.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;When the Sirens were given a parentage they were considered the daughters of the river god Achelous, fathered upon Terpsichore, Melpomene, Sterope, or Chthon (the Earth; in Euripides' Helen 167, Helen in her anguish calls upon &quot;Winged maidens, daughters of the Earth&quot;). Although they lured mariners, for the Greeks the Sirens in their &quot;meadow starred with flowers&quot; were not sea deities. Roman writers linked the Sirens more closely to the sea, as daughters of Phorcys.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;Their number is variously reported as between two and five. In the Odyssey, Homer says nothing of their origin or names, but gives the number of the Sirens as two. Later writers mention both their names and number: some state that there were three, Peisinoe, Aglaope, and Thelxiepeia.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;The Sirens of Greek mythology are sometimes portrayed in later folklore as fully aquatic and mermaid-like; the facts that in Spanish, French, Italian, Polish, Romanian and Portuguese the word for mermaid is respectively Sirena, Sirene, Sirena, Syrena, Sirena and Sereia, and that in biology the Sirenia comprise an order of fully aquatic mammals that includes the dugong and manatee, add to the visual confusion, so that Sirens are even represented as mermaids. However, &quot;the sirens, though they sing to mariners, are not sea-maidens,&quot; Harrison had cautioned; &quot;they dwell on an island in a flowery meadow.&quot; - [Sirens (Crystalinks)][1]&#xA;&#xA;EDIT from comments&#xA;&#xA;&gt;Plus, there was a fish-headed god in antiquity (not greco-roman) could you name him/her? From which mythology is he/she from? –  plannapus May 11 at 9:46&#xA;1       &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;There are several, the most famous is Dagon: &#xA;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Dagon was originally an East Semitic Mesopotamian (Akkadian, Assyrian, Babylonian) fertility god who evolved into a major Northwest Semitic god, reportedly of grain (as symbol of fertility) and fish and/or fishing (as symbol of multiplying).&quot;&#xA;    &#xA;There are also fish-headed fertility figures, like: &#xA;&#xA;&gt;&quot;The anthropomorphic female sculpture (known as Praroditeljka / Ancestress) found in the front of the sanctuary in house No. XLIV at Lepenski Vir has a large &quot;fish-like&quot; head, collar-bones and clawed hands that appear to be opening up her vulva, in a very similar way to that of European Sheela-Na-Gigs figures.&quot; - [Lepenski Vir &quot;Fish-Head&quot; Ancestress][2]&#xA;&#xA; The original Question asked &#xA;&#xA;&gt;What creatures are they referring to?&#xA;&#xA;If it is a non-mythological creature, it may be based on real anthropomorphic fishes like the monk/clerc fish or the &quot;*cardinal*&quot; fish, the ***[poisson évèque][3]*** which was described by 16th century French naturalists, as in this [site][4] in French.   &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.crystalinks.com/sirens.html&#xA;  [2]: http://ancientcraft.co.uk/reenactment/pa_lepenski_vir.html&#xA;  [3]: http://www.paranormal-encyclopedie.com/wiki/Articles/Poisson_%C3%A9v%C3%AAque&#xA;  [4]: http://expositions.bnf.fr/lamer/arret/merveill1.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21311" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="150" RevisionGUID="40d5b514-2791-4626-9e00-1be11f8bb0d2" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="An early reference to a herma can be found in Aesop's (620–564 BCE) fables: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Ἐν ὁδῷ τις Ἑρμῆς τετράγωνος εἱστήκει, λίθων δ᾿ ὑπ᾿ αὐτῷ σωρὸς ἦν. κύων τούτῳ εἶπεν προσελθών “χαῖρε πρῶτον, Ἑρμεία ἔπειτ᾿ ἀλεῖψαι βούλομαί σε, μηδ᾿ οὕτω θεὸν παρελθεῖν, καὶ θεὸν παλαιστρίτην.” ὁ δ᾿ εἶπεν “ἤν μου τοῦτο μὴ ’πιλιχμήσῃς τοὔλαιον ἐλθών, μηδέ μοι προσουρήσῃς, χάριν εἴσομαί σοι· καὶ πλέον με μὴ τίμα.”  &#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Babrius collection, tale 48&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Another reference that shows the statues were known at least as early as the 6th century BCE can be found in Plato's [Hipparchus][1]: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; ... he proceeded next, with the design of educating those of the countryside, to set up figures of Hermes for them along the roads in the midst of the city and every district town; and then, after selecting from his own wise lore, both learnt from others and discovered for himself, the things that he considered the wisest, he threw these into elegiac form and inscribed them on the figures as verses of his own and testimonies of his wisdom, so that in the first place,&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; Source: [Plat. Hipparch. 228d](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0176%3Atext%3DHipparch.%3Asection%3D228d) &lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;As for the origin of the statues, Herodotus tells us that the Athenians learned the production of the hermai from the [Pelasgians](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians), via the [Samothracians](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samothrace): &#xA;&#xA;&gt; These customs, then, and others besides, which I shall indicate, were taken by the Greeks from the Egyptians. It was not so with the ithyphallic images of Hermes; the production of these came from the Pelasgians, from whom the Athenians were the first Greeks to take it, and then handed it on to others. &#xA;&gt; For the Athenians were then already counted as Greeks when the Pelasgians came to live in the land with them and thereby began to be considered as Greeks. Whoever has been initiated into the rites of the Cabeiri, which the Samothracians learned from the Pelasgians and now practice, understands what my meaning is.  &#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; Source: [Hdt. 2.51.1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126%3Abook%3D2%3Achapter%3D51%3Asection%3D1), [Hdt. 2.51.2](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126%3Abook%3D2%3Achapter%3D51%3Asection%3D2)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hipparchus_%28son_of_Peisistratos%29" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21312" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="143" RevisionGUID="0b64b57d-75cb-4240-baf5-1dae61335cf6" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Chaos is the primeval void, the starting point in Hesiod's theogony. No one created it, it just came to be: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Tell how at the first gods and earth came to be, and rivers, and the boundless sea with its raging swell, and the gleaming stars, and the wide heaven above, and the gods who were born of them, givers of good things, and how they divided their wealth, and how they shared their honors amongst them, and also how at the first they took many-folded Olympus. These things declare to me from the beginning, you Muses who dwell in the house of Olympus, and tell me which of them first came to be. In truth at first Chaos came to be, but next wide-bosomed Earth, the ever-sure foundation of all the deathless ones who hold the peaks of snowy Olympus, and dim Tartarus in the depth of the wide-pathed Earth, and Eros (Love), fairest among the deathless gods, who unnerves the limbs and overcomes the mind and wise counsels of all gods and all men within them. From Chaos came forth Erebus and black Night; but of Night were born Aether and Day, whom she conceived and bore from union in love with Erebus. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; [Hes. Th. 116](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hes.+Th.+116)&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21313" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="112" RevisionGUID="1634a816-a4fe-4072-a527-ee749101db6d" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="[Publius Cornelius Tacitus][1] in his De Origine et situ Germanorum tells us that 1st century Germanic tribes worshipped Hercules: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; They say that Hercules, too, once visited them; and when going into battle, they sing of him first of all heroes. They have also those songs of theirs, by the recital of which (“baritus,” they call it), they rouse their courage, while from the note they augur the result of the approaching conflict. For, as their line shouts, they inspire or feel alarm. It is not so much an articulate sound, as a general cry of valour. They aim chiefly at a harsh note and a confused roar, putting their shields to their mouth, so that, by reverberation, it may swell into a fuller and deeper sound. Ulysses, too, is believed by some, in his long legendary wanderings, to have found his way into this ocean, and, having visited German soil, to have founded and named the town of Asciburgium, which stands on the bank of the Rhine, and is to this day inhabited. They even say that an altar dedicated to Ulysses, with the addition of the name of his father, Laertes, was formerly discovered on this same spot, and that certain monuments and tombs, with Greek inscriptions, still exist on the borders of Germany and Rhætia. These statements I have no intention of sustaining by proofs, or of refuting; every one may believe or disbelieve them as he feels inclined.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; [Tac. Ger. 3](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0083%3Achapter%3D3)&#xA;&#xA;Are there other sources that discuss a Hercules cult in the general area? Or is this an instance of [interpretatio graeca](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretatio_graeca)? And if so, which Germanic deity or hero is Tacitus substituting with Hercules?&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21314" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="105" RevisionGUID="9e92cc49-b653-4b36-a424-98bb5b6e9cd4" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="## There is some disagreement on this issue. ##&#xA;&#xA;According to [Theogony, lines 881-885](https://www.msu.edu/~tyrrell/theogon.pdf) (emphasis mine):&#xA;&#xA;&gt; But when the blessed gods completed their toil and made settlement of honors for the Titans by brute force, they urged wide-seeing **Olympian Zeus** in accord with the advice of Gaia to be king and lord, and **he apportioned** provinces to them well.&#xA;&#xA;However, [in the Iliad](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hom.%20Il.%2015.187&amp;lang=original), it says this (emphasis mine again):&#xA;&#xA;&gt; [185] “Out upon it, verily strong though he be he hath spoken overweeningly, if in sooth by force and in mine own despite he will restrain me that am of like honour with himself. For three brethren are we, begotten of Cronos, and born of Rhea,—Zeus, and myself, and the third is Hades, that is lord of the dead below. And in three-fold wise are all things divided, and unto each hath been apportioned his own domain. [190] I verily, **when the lots were shaken, won** for my portion the grey sea to be my habitation for ever, and Hades won the murky darkness, while Zeus won the broad heaven amid the air and the clouds; but the earth and high Olympus remain yet common to us all. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21315" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="104" RevisionGUID="277eca58-44a9-40a2-99ed-8d5d4c0f6a2f" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="From [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotu_Matu%27a):&#xA;&gt;Hau-Maka had a dream in which his spirit traveled to a far country, to help look for new land for King Hotu Matu'a. He traveled to the Mata ki te rangi ('Eyes that look to the sky). The island has also been called &quot;Te pito o te henua&quot;, which means &quot;the Center of the Earth.&quot; Both islands are commonly said to be Easter Island.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;When Hau-Maka woke, he told the King. The King then ordered seven men to travel to the island from Hiva, their mythical home, to investigate. They found the land and returned to Hiva. The king himself then traveled to the new island.&#xA;&#xA;Hotu Matu'a led his people from Hiva; linguistic analysis comparing Rapanui to other Polynesian languages suggests this was the Marquesas Islands.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;From [Nova Travel](http://www.novatravels.350.com/chile/EasterIsland/History.htm)'s article on the History of Easter Island:&#xA;&gt;Hotu Matu'a was the first highest rank leader of Easter Island. According to the legends, the Ariki Mau, **Hotu Matu'a arrived from an island or group of islands called Hiva**; apparently a catastrophe had sunk their land. &#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Other source(s): http://pvs.kcc.hawaii.edu/ike/moolelo/hotu_matua.html&lt;/sup&gt;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21316" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="103" RevisionGUID="1b30e83a-46e9-4a46-a993-417c3ca38482" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="According to Pseudo-Apollodorus, the three brothers drew lots to decide their dominions: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; But when Zeus was full-grown, he took Metis, daughter of Ocean, to help him, and she gave Cronus a drug to swallow, which forced him to disgorge first the stone and then the children whom he had swallowed, and with their aid Zeus waged the war against Cronus and the Titans. They fought for ten years, and Earth prophesied victory to Zeus if he should have as allies those who had been hurled down to Tartarus. So he slew their jailoress Campe, and loosed their bonds. And the Cyclopes then gave Zeus thunder and lightning and a thunderbolt, and on Pluto they bestowed a helmet and on Poseidon a trident. Armed with these weapons the gods overcame the Titans, shut them up in Tartarus, and appointed the Hundred-handers their guards; but they themselves cast lots for the sovereignty, and to Zeus was allotted the dominion of the sky, to Poseidon the dominion of the sea, and to Pluto the dominion in Hades.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; Source: [Apollodorus, Library, 1.2.1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D2%3Asection%3D1) &lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Interestingly, the three brothers shared dominion over the earth. This is why Poseidon is also the god of earthquakes. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21317" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="92" RevisionGUID="7fc8ae74-b725-4940-8e40-d38ca18367e3" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Diodorus Siculus tells us that Heracles was originally named Alcaeus and was renamed Heracles&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; after he gained glory with Hera's aid: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; μετὰ δὲ ταῦτα ἡ μὲν Ἥρα δύο δράκοντας ἀπέστειλε τοὺς ἀναλώσοντας τὸ βρέφος, ὁ δὲ παῖς οὐ καταπλαγεὶς ἑκατέρᾳ τῶν χειρῶν τὸν αὐχένα σφίγξας ἀπέπνιξε τοὺς δράκοντας. διόπερ Ἀργεῖοι πυθόμενοι τὸ γεγονὸς Ἡρακλέα προσηγόρευσαν, ὅτι δἰ Ἥραν ἔσχε κλέος, Ἀλκαῖον πρότερον καλούμενον. τοῖς μὲν οὖν ἄλλοις οἱ γονεῖς τοὔνομα περιτιθέασι, τούτῳ δὲ μόνῳ ἡ ἀρετὴ τὴν προσηγορίαν ἔθετο.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; [Diod. 4.10.1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0540%3Abook%3D4%3Achapter%3D10%3Asection%3D1)&#xA;&#xA;Apollodorus also tells us that Hercules had a different name at birth (Alcides, which means grandson of Alcaeus), but gives a different account of his renaming: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Now it came to pass that after the battle with the Minyans Hercules was driven mad through the jealousy of Hera and flung his own children, whom he had by Megara, and two children of Iphicles into the fire; wherefore he condemned himself to exile, and was purified by Thespius, and repairing to Delphi he inquired of the god where he should dwell. The Pythian priestess then first called him Hercules, for hitherto he was called Alcides. And she told him to dwell in Tiryns, serving Eurystheus for twelve years and to perform the ten labours imposed on him, and so, she said, when the tasks were accomplished, he would be immortal.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; [Apollod. 2.4.12](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Apollod.+2.4.12&amp;fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022)&#xA;&#xA;I'm pretty sure there's another version of the story, where Heracles gets his name from Apollo, but I cannot remember the source. &#xA;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; Literally &quot;Hera's glory&quot;&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21318" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="87" RevisionGUID="d976db69-e986-4dd4-8b90-bb689cfe60b8" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="## The [River Styx][1] is one of the five rivers of the  Greek Underworld, rivers that separate Hades from the land of the living.&#xA;&#xA;During the [Titanomachy][2] (the Titan war), which was fought between the [Titans][3] and the [Olympians][4], the goddess Styx sided with the Olympians. &#xA;&#xA;Once the war was won, [Zeus][5], king of the Olympians, promised that every oath be sworn on Styx's name, as a sign of the greatest respect. &#xA;&#xA;He also proceeded to name the River Styx after her.&#xA;&#xA;[Achilles][6] was dipped in it as a child and was rewarded with invulnerability, except for his heel, which was where his mother was holding him, hence the term :  Achilles' heel.&#xA;&#xA;The full list of rivers surrounding Hades :&#xA;&#xA;1. [Acheron][7] - the river of woe&#xA;&#xA;2. [Cocytus][8] - the river of lamentation&#xA;&#xA;3. [Phlegethon][9] - the river of fire&#xA;&#xA;4. [Lethe][10] - the river of forgetfulness&#xA;&#xA;5. [Styx][11] - the river of hate&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Dor%C3%A9_-_Styx.jpg&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanomachy&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_(mythology)&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Olympians&#xA;  [5]: http://api.ning.com/files/RxYDN27Lud8gaH*HXdHQh26D6YPz4WtXpJRuqmrHryg*U4eTgN1r-I6-zC2k*ZyIHViCvdPCeGVLFh3d5bAfwuWAyyp2aAfV/zeus2.jpg&#xA;  [6]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles&#xA;  [7]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acheron&#xA;  [8]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocytus&#xA;  [9]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phlegethon&#xA;  [10]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethe&#xA;  [11]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styx" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21319" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="81" RevisionGUID="91b8247a-833c-43dd-b34c-e9a40d602dec" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="## The [Minotaur][1] was a lone creature, the first and only of it's kind. The unfortunate result of a Greek God loosing his temper.&#xA;&#xA;Shortly after King Minos (or [Minos The King][2]) ascended to the throne of the island of Crete, he began to pray to [Poseidon][3] for a sign of his right to sit on said throne. &#xA;&#xA;Poseidon sent a snow-white bull, the [Cretan Bull][4], out of the sea as a gift to Minos and as proof that he was indeed worthy to be king, and in turn Minos promised he would sacrifice the bull in Posidean's name.&#xA;&#xA;Unfortuanlty, Minos' wife [Pasiphaë][5], took a liking to the bull and begged Minos to spare it. Minos did, and sacrificed a different bull in it's place.&#xA;&#xA;Unfortuatly again, Poseidon was not easily deceived and when he learned of Minos' treachery, he promptly cursed Pasiphaë with [zoophilia][6]...&#xA;&#xA;_It get's creepy from here on..._&#xA;&#xA;&gt;!Pasiphaë's zoophilic urges got the better of her but alas, she could not seduce the Cretan Bull. So she had a wooden bull built. Apparently a very realistic and attractive wooden bull. And proceeded to climb inside and wait for nature to take it's course. Sure enough this did the trick and soon the palace was blessed with the pitter-patter of cloven feet. &#xA;&#xA;The Minotaur, which they named Asterius, was an abomination. So with the help of [Daedalus][7], [The Labyrinth][8] was constructed. As Daedalus puts it, it was a : &#xA;&#xA; &gt;chamber that with its tangled windings perplexed the outward way&#xA;&#xA;Minos placed Asterius in the centre, and as he didn't want anyone to know about his odd step-son, he threw Daedalus and his son [Icarus][9] in too, but [they escaped][10].&#xA;&#xA;And so the poor Minotaur languished in The Labyrinth alone, for the rest of his miserable days. &#xA;&#xA;...until [Theseus][11] paid him a [visit][12].&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minotaur&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minos&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poseidon&#xA;  [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretan_Bull&#xA;  [5]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasipha%C3%AB&#xA;  [6]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoophilia&#xA;  [7]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daedalus&#xA;  [8]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labyrinth&#xA;  [9]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icarus&#xA;  [10]: http://www.corbisimages.com/images/Corbis-42-18132270.jpg?size=67&amp;uid=2a711a1d-ee5d-484d-9114-6a39bdd52302&#xA;  [11]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theseus&#xA;  [12]: http://slodive.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/simon-dominic-brewer/Theseus-and-the-Minotaur.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21320" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="62" RevisionGUID="d2d1f749-3682-40c7-9649-957c287b1122" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="There is actually an Egyptian goddess named Hathor and he is the god of Solar Eclipses. From this [website][1] there are actually many gods associated with the sun:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Horus the Hawk is the Sun in totality.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; The Sun god Atum is the eclipsed Sun passing the second contact of a&#xA;&gt; total eclipse.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; Ra is the eclipsed Sun shining past the third contact as the Diamond&#xA;&gt; Ring (Sacred Geometry)&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; The Scarab Khepri was a representation of the dark New Moon.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; The Great Sphinx was the Egyptian Lord of Solar Eclipses.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; Hathor was the Egyptian Goddess of Solar Eclipses.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;The problem is the Egyptians couldn't explain why the gods had this phenomenon and never actually put into words their beleif on the matter.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.crystalinks.com/eclipse.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21321" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="44" RevisionGUID="9cf59f1c-b98b-4d6e-abab-ca5ba965877b" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="&gt; Πανδώρα (παν + δώρα): the all-gifted&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Etymology of Pandora][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;The myth of Pandora (the first mortal woman) is misinterpreted. I've seen many modern books wrongly claiming that hope did escape the box and, despite all evil that was spread throughout the land, people still hoped that better days would soon come. &#xA;&#xA;Hesiod is the one that refers to the box (it was not a box actually, but more like a jar) and claims that Pandora (actually referring to women) is the root of all evil, because she would hurt the man with her beauty and lies.  &#xA;&#xA;&gt;For from her is the descent of female women       &lt;br/&gt;&#xA;&gt;a great pain for mortals, living with men, &lt;br/&gt;&#xA;&gt;companions not of destructive Poverty but of Plenty.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Theogony][2]&lt;sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;When Pandora opened the box, all evil escaped it, but Pandora (under Zeus' will) held hope inside the jar by closing the lid. Isiodus doesn't say why hope stayed into the jar, but one (judging from Isiodus' view on women) can imply that  he meant by that, that the men would have no hope against women, for without her, they would die alone, but with her, they'd have to withstand their cunning nature.&#xA;&#xA;Judging by this, which is how Hesiod closes [Theogony][3]:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Thus it is not possible to escape the mind of Zeus.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Theogony][4]&lt;sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;and &#xA;&#xA;&gt; an angry Zeus decides to give humanity a punishing gift to compensate for the boon they had been given. He commands Hephaestus to mold from earth the first woman, a &quot;beautiful evil&quot; whose descendants would torment the human race&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;One can see what Hesiod wanted to say in the end.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Pandora&#xA;  [2]: https://www.msu.edu/~tyrrell/theogon.pdf&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theogony&#xA;  [4]: https://www.msu.edu/~tyrrell/theogon.pdf&#xA;  [5]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora#Hesiod" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21322" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="19" RevisionGUID="bafd84d3-48f6-41ca-87b2-719dcd5a4fa5" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="A 'god' is synonymous to a 'deity'; the Titans and Titanesses *were* gods, they were members of the second order of divine beings - after Gaia and Uranus, and the other primordial deities. &#xA;&#xA;Cronus and his fellow Titans comprised the second Ancient Greek pantheon (the first comprising of deities such as Ananke, Gaea, and Ouranos), which the younger generation of gods, including Zeus, would later usurp, as the Titans usurped the primordial gods before them. (For more information on this concept of change in dominant deities, read up on the theory of [The Golden Age][1], particularly that of Hesiod, who also wrote the only surviving account of the Titans in his [Theogony][2].)&#xA;&#xA;As for *why* the Titans have their own order name as opposed to Zeus et al who are simply 'gods', there is debate as to the exact etymology of the word 'titan' but this quote from Hesiod's *Theogony* states:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; &quot;But these sons whom he begot himself great Heaven used to call Titans （Strainers） in reproach, for he said that they strained  (τιταίνοντας) and did presumptuous a fearful deed, and that vengeance (τίσιν) for it would come afterwards.&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Trans. Evelyn-White, [here with side-by-side Greek][3]. &#xA; &#xA;However this is not to say Hesiod was correct; he himself was writing long after the supposed Golden Age ended.&#xA; &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Age&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theogony&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D207" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21323" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3300" RevisionGUID="e442773a-d7fa-48bd-a41f-92845f19c3ea" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The *Book of the Heavenly Cow* revolves around mankind's rebellion against Ra: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; The central theme of The Book of the Heavenly Cow is mankind's rebellion against the elder sun god, Re, resulting in the punishment of humans by the fiery &quot;eye&quot; of Re in the form of the goddess Hathor. It takes place after Re's long rule on earth. The first part places considerable emphasis on the royal role of the sun god, who bears the royal title and who's name is surrounded by a cartouche. He is specifically given rulership over both the deities and the humans.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Prior to the rebellion, which required a complete reordering of the world, there had been a golden age where the various deities and humans were both under the sovereignty of the sun god. During this previous age, the sun god had not yet begun his daily course through the sky and the netherworld. Hence, there was no cycle of day and night, nor was there a netherworld and death did not exist.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Book of the Heavenly (Celestial) Cow, by Roland Mastaff][1]. Tour Egypt.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Do we know the reason behind the rebellion? What compelled mankind to rise against Ra?&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/celestrialcow.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21324" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="160" RevisionGUID="3834db6f-df5e-406d-9c3c-3f7586655c67" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In pseudo-Apollodorus' version, Medusa's sisters sought revenge on Perseus, who escaped them by using the [Cap of Hades][1] (which rendered its wearer invisible): &#xA;&#xA;&gt; So Perseus put the head of Medusa in the wallet (kibisis) and went back again; but the Gorgons started up from their slumber and pursued Perseus: but they could not see him on account of the cap, for he was hidden by it.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Apollod. 2.4.3](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D2%3Achapter%3D4%3Asection%3D3)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Also, at least according to Hesiod, Medusa's sister were immortal:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; And again, Ceto bore to Phorcys the fair-cheeked Graiae, sisters grey from their birth: and both deathless gods and men who walk on earth call them Graiae, Pemphredo well-clad, and saffron-robed Enyo, and the Gorgons who dwell beyond glorious Ocean in the frontier land towards Night where are the clear-voiced Hesperides, Sthenno, and Euryale, and Medusa who suffered a woeful fate: she was mortal, but the two were undying and grew not old.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hes. Th. 275](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hes.+Th.+275&amp;fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cap_of_invisibility" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21325" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="311" RevisionGUID="a2fc1bb2-5385-4fb8-b09d-9e7ca9aaff9f" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="On Anunnaki Wikipedia page we can read:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Their relation to the group of gods known as the Igigi is unclear – at times the names are used synonymously but in the Atra-Hasis flood myth the Igigi are the sixth generation of the gods who have to work for the Anunnaki, rebelling after 40 days and replaced by the creation of humans.&#xA;&#xA;Further down:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Jeremy Black and Anthony Green offer a slightly different perspective on the Igigi and the Anunnaki, writing that &quot;lgigu or Igigi is a term introduced in the Old Babylonian Period as a name for the (ten) &quot;great gods&quot;.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; In the Epic of Creation, it is said that there are 300 lgigu of heaven.&#xA;&#xA;In this [answer][1] we can read that scientists believe that there could be as many as 750 Anunnaki.&#xA;&#xA;Therefore, what is the difference between Igigi and Anunnaki, can anybody elaborate that?&#xA;&#xA;Were they different group of deities or Igigi were just the lower class of Anunnaki?&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/221/51" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21326" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="328" RevisionGUID="b7698183-ec5e-4ba7-8f08-4e8b2b1c047a" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The shape of the pyramids was indeed influenced by the benben. Here's something I found on [Egypt Tour](https://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/pyramidreligion.htm):&#xA;&gt;One of their earliest creation myths envisioned the first place in the world as a mound of earth emerging from the waters of a universal ocean.[...]&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;It seems that the earliest temples of Egypt, particularly in the north, sometimes incorporated a mound of earth as a symbol of the original site of all life. The earliest such mounds may have been a small hill of earth or sand, but the icon eventually took the form of a small pyramid carved from a single block of stone, known as a bnbn (benben). This name comes from the root, bn, which means to &quot;sell up&quot; or &quot;swell forth&quot;. The benben also, because of the sun's part in creation, came to be an icon of both the primeval mound as well as the sun which rose from it. In fact, the Egyptian word for the rising sun is wbn, which comes from the same root as benben.&#xA;&#xA;The above extract tells how the &quot;rising mound of earth&quot; was imitated by the pyramids and how the Egyptians considered it sacred. That sacred feeling was achieved by the Egyptians through the construction of the pyramids.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;Multiple sources do confirm that the Egyptian pyramids were based on their beliefs on benben:&#xA;&gt;First of all, they reflect the shape of the primordial mound of creation &quot;benben&quot;. According to the Egyptian creation myth, which describes how the world was born, benben was an earthly mound that appeared out of the water and produced the first God.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sub&gt;source: [Function of the Egyptian Pyramids](http://www.experience-ancient-egypt.com/egyptian-pyramids.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt; &#xA;&#xA;The pyramid was not only a recreation of the benben, but along with it, the pyramids were considered to be the steps to heaven, where at the peak, they (Pharaohs) could greet the Sun god, Ra.&#xA;&#xA;&gt;Moreover, the origin of the monument, hitherto overlooked, made it a symbol of the highest sacredness, rising above the mortal remains of the king, to greet the Sun, whose offspring the Pharaoh was.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sub&gt;source: [LECTURE III THE REALMS OF THE DEAD—THE PYRAMID TEXTS—THE ASCENT TO THE SKY](http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/rtae/rtae07.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;It is said that the myth is confirmed in the [Pyramid Texts](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_Texts).&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21327" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="345" RevisionGUID="982ffeb6-7a7a-4c5a-b9db-b1cd316ac2ed" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Odin's eye remains at the bottom of Mimir's Well: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; I know where Othin's eye is hidden,  &#xA;&gt; Deep in the wide-famed well of Mimir;  &#xA;&gt; Mead from the pledge of Othin each mom  &#xA;&gt; Does Mimir drink: would you know yet more?&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Völuspá, the Poetic Edda, translated by by Henry Adams Bellows][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;The point of the tale is to convey the message that no sacrifice is too great for wisdom. What happens to Odin's eye after it has been thrown into Mimir's Well is not particularly significant. &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe03.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21328" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="598" RevisionGUID="c9a5db54-b243-48ed-8e41-cd6686060fa6" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Homer, in book 5 of the Iliad, tells us that during his expedition against [Neleus][1] of Pylos (Poseidon's son), Heracles won battles against Poseidon and Apollo, and managed to wound Hera and Hades with his arrows. &#xA;&#xA;He also killed Neleus and eleven of his twelve sons, including [Periclymenus][2] (an Argonaut and a shapeshifter). Citizens of Pylos that stood in his way suffered a similar fate.&#xA;&#xA;All this, because Heracles felt Neleus had insulted him. &#xA;&#xA;Now, Heracles wasn't known for running away from a fight. However, going into battle and slaughtering a city over an insult feels a bit out of character for the classical version of the legend. Furthermore, overcoming not one but four Olympians is simply too magnificent a feat. Some, including [Pindar][3], are highly skeptical of the story: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; For how could Heracles have wielded his club against the trident, when Poseidon took his stand to guard Pylos, and pressed him hard, and Phoebus pressed him hard, attacking with his silver bow; nor did Hades keep his staff unmoved, with which he leads mortal bodies down to the hollow path of the dead. My mouth, fling this story away from me! Since to speak evil of the gods is a hateful skill, and untimely boasting is in harmony with madness. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Olympian Ode 9: For Epharmostus of Opus Wrestling-Match 466 B.C., Pindar](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0033.tlg001.perseus-eng1:9)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Was there a significant change in views about Heracles from Homeric times (around 850 BCE) to Pindar's time (c. 522 – c. 443 BC)? Was the Homeric version of Heracles a far more brutal hero than the classical version? And if so, have we identified other distinct points in the transformation of the myth?&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neleus&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periclymenus&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pindar" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21329" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="597" RevisionGUID="c78af659-05c5-48bc-a2ff-8150637b95aa" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Hades, apparently, was present in the battlefield when Hercules besieged Pylos: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; And so suffered monstrous Hades even as the rest a bitter arrow, when this same man, the son of Zeus that beareth the aegis, smote him in Pylos amid the dead, and gave him over to pains. But he went to the house of Zeus and to high Olympus with grief at heart, pierced through with pains; &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hom. Il. 5.395](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hom.+Il.+5.395&amp;fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xA;&#xA;This is one of the rare instances we see [Hades outside the Underworld][1]. One interpretation for his presence in the battlefield is that he was there collecting or overseeing the collection of souls (&quot;amid the dead&quot;). This interpretation, however, feels to me like an attempt to attach Christian symbolism to the story. &#xA;&#xA;Are there any other references for Hades visiting battlefields? And if so, are there any explicit mentions on what exactly was the reason for him being there?&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/496/57" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21330" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="591" RevisionGUID="abd8e3f7-5252-4126-8cdc-36f74b2029ad" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="## The Father is the deity Tien... but not really.&#xA;&#xA;Firstly, &quot;Heaven&quot; (天, tian) refers to the supreme sky deity. Sinologist [Herrlee Glessner Creel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herrlee_Creel) says in [The Origins of Statecraft in China:](http://books.google.com/books/about/The_Origins_of_Statecraft_in_China.html?id=F5d1mQEACAAJ)&#xA;&#xA;&gt; For three thousand years it has been believed that from time **immemorial all Chinese revered T'ien 天, &quot;Heaven,&quot; as the highest deity,** and that this same deity was also known as Ti 帝 or Shang Ti 上帝. But the new materials that have become available in the present century, and especially the Shang inscriptions, make it evident that this was not the case. It appears rather that T'ien is not named at all in the Shang inscriptions, which instead refer with great frequency to Ti or Shang Ti. T'ien appears only with the Chou, and was apparently a Chou deity. After the conquest the Chou considered T'ien to be identical with the Shang deity Ti (or Shang Ti), much as the Romans identified the Greek Zeus with their Jupiter.&#xA;&#xA;However, in China this phrase **&quot;Son of Heaven&quot; should not be taken literally.** In [Heritage of China: Contemporary Perspectives on Chinese Civilization](http://books.google.com/books/about/Heritage_of_China.html?id=zm6Sm64y5CwC), it states:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The ruler soon bore a new title that was based on the legitimating concept of the Mandate of Heaven: the Son of Heaven. The term **was not taken in the literal sense to mean that the Chou king was descended from Heaven** and therefore divine, but it did convey the idea that the King had been chosen by Heaven. Just as lineage heads were patrimonially responsible to the Chou king, so too was he responsible, as a son, to Heaven, who could withdraw the mandate and confer it on a more deserving, that is, a more morally responsible, ruling house." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21331" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="567" RevisionGUID="f50ec975-05eb-47d0-957f-3c16b99048a8" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="# It's not likely.&#xA;&#xA;I shall approach the question from two sides:&#xA;&#xA;## Was it likely that Mayans knew about elephants?&#xA;&#xA;There are no modern elephants that were ever native to the Americas, including Mexico. However, there were Woolly mammoths, which have the same long snouts. The *very last* known living [Woolly Mammoths were alive 6500 years ago](https://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2005AM/finalprogram/abstract_97313.htm); the very earliest [Mayans were alive closer to 4000 years ago, in the Early Preclassic period](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_civilization#History). So, while it's technically possible that the Mayans either knew about the Elephant snouts from when their [ancestors travelled over the Beringa Land Bridge 20000 years ago](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beringia) or from Woolly Mammoth snout **fossils**, it seems unlikely.&#xA;&#xA;## Well, if not elephants or mammoths, why a snout?&#xA;&#xA;The first thing to note is that **Chaac did not always appear with a snout.** In [Mythology: Myths, Legends and Fantasies, page 481](https://books.google.com/books?id=p7dR2w1Wv2sC&amp;pg=PA481&amp;lpg=PA481&amp;dq=maya+chaac+snout&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=NSwtTsVuA4&amp;sig=dyIY7i6V-xwIhqRYvHb-1PXWlYA&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=9LVLVdKkOMa3oQSjxIG4Ag&amp;ved=0CFkQ6AEwCw#v=onepage&amp;q=maya%20chaac%20snout&amp;f=false) it says:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Chaac appears in many faces and guises. Some images show him with a curled, snoutlike nose, and sometimes he is seen with scales or catfish whiskers, or with tears flowing from his eyes. Often he is seen painted blue and weilding an axe, which he uses to create lightning and thunder.&#xA;&#xA;So why did he have a snout? The same source says:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The Codz Poop building at Kabah in the Yucatan region of Mexico features 250 masks of Chaac. One of the many beliefs about Chaac is that he uses his **hooked nose to penetrate the clouds, causing rain to fall.**&#xA;&#xA;This is an alternate reasoning for him to have the hooked nose - to part the clouds, not because he's elephant-like.&#xA;&#xA;As you can see, Chaac's long nose doesn't always really remind of Elephants:&#xA;&#xA;![Chaac urn][1]&#xA;![Chaac drawing][2]&#xA;![Chaac statue][3]&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/SXj8r.jpg&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/U5Xsy.jpg&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/dzi96.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21332" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="557" RevisionGUID="c2806f33-f5e2-4ff3-b93c-2fbfec5428f0" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="As your Wikipedia quote notes, Erebos is the personification of darkness. He is neither a deity nor a domain; he is both. Which aspect of him we are talking about, depends on context. &#xA;&#xA;This is a common pattern for [primordials][1]: &#xA;&#xA;- Chaos is the personification of the void, but also the void itself.&#xA;- Ouranos is the personification of the sky, but also the sky itself. &#xA;- Gaia is the personification of the earth, but also the earth itself. &#xA;- etc.&#xA;&#xA;However, it should be noted that some writers used Erebos as an alternative name for [Tartaros][2], and vice versa. One such instance can be found in [The Eumenides][3], the final play of Aeschylus' Oresteia:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; These hoary ancient maidens, with whom never  &#xA;&gt; Hath any god mingled, nor man, nor beast.  &#xA;&gt; Evil was cause of their creation, evil  &#xA;&gt; The murky pit of Tartarus where they dwell  &#xA;&gt; Abhorred by men and by the Olympian gods.  &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Oresteia, Aeschylus, translated by R.C. Trevelyan](https://archive.org/stream/oresteiaofaeschy00aescuoft/oresteiaofaeschy00aescuoft_djvu.txt)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xA;&#xA;Hesiod - on the other hand - considers Erebos and Tartaros distinct (emphasis mine): &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Hail, children of Zeus! Grant lovely song and celebrate the holy race of the deathless gods who are for ever, those that were born of Earth and starry Heaven and gloomy Night and them that briny Sea did rear. Tell how at the first gods and earth came to be, and rivers, and the boundless sea with its raging swell, and the gleaming stars, and the wide heaven above, and the gods who were born of them, givers of good things, and how they divided their wealth, and how they shared their honors amongst them, and also how at the first they took many-folded Olympus. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; These things declare to me from the beginning, you Muses who dwell in the house of Olympus, and tell me which of them first came to be. In truth at first Chaos came to be, but next wide-bosomed Earth, the ever-sure foundation of all1the deathless ones who hold the peaks of snowy Olympus, and *dim Tartarus in the depth of the wide-pathed Earth*, and Eros (Love), fairest among the deathless gods, who unnerves the limbs and overcomes the mind and wise counsels of all gods and all men within them. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; *From Chaos came forth Erebus and black Night*; but of Night were born Aether and Day, whom she conceived and bore from union in love with Erebus. And Earth first bore starry Heaven, equal to herself, to cover her on every side, and to be an ever-sure abiding-place for the blessed gods. And she brought forth long hills, graceful haunts of the goddess Nymphs who dwell amongst the glens of the hills. She bore also the fruitless deep with his raging swell, Pontus, without sweet union of love. But afterwards she lay with Heaven and bore deep-swirling Oceanus, Coeus and Crius and Hyperion and Iapetus, Theia and Rhea, Themis and Mnemosyne and gold-crowned Phoebe and lovely Tethys. After them was born Cronos the wily, youngest and most terrible of her children, and he hated his lusty sire.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Theogony, Hesiod, lines 104-138](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0020.tlg001.perseus-eng1:104-138)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;The same is true for Aristophanes, no less than two centuries after Hesiod: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; At the beginning there was only Chaos, Night, dark Erebus, and deep Tartarus. Earth, the air and heaven had no existence. Firstly, blackwinged Night laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebus, and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated in deep Tartarus with dark Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was the first to see the light. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Birds, Aristophanes, lines 690-695](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0019.tlg006.perseus-eng1:685-707)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_primordial_deities&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartarus&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oresteia#The_Eumenides" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21333" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="547" RevisionGUID="c48c0128-f965-48c0-a7ee-9d665ea8ad90" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="They exist in the mythology of Sumeria:&#xA;&#xA;&gt;...[are the Sumerian deities][1] of the old primordial line; they are chthonic deities of fertility, associated eventually with the underworld, where they became judges. They take their name from the old sky god An (Anu).&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; .........&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;The Anunnaki appear in the Babylonian creation myth, Enuma Elish&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; .......&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The Anunnaki are mentioned in The Epic of Gilgamesh when Utnapishtim tells the story of the flood. The seven judges of hell are called the Anunna&#xA;&#xA;etc.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anunnaki" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21334" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="542" RevisionGUID="02b49e81-62c4-435d-a37c-16e7c565fa99" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="This is a reference to the greek word [βο-ῶπις](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=bow=pis) or bo-opis, which is translated in different places as one of:&#xA;&#xA; - ox-eyed&#xA; - cow-eyed&#xA; - cow-faced&#xA;&#xA;Homer uses it throughout his works; it is one of his [Homeric Epithets](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epithets_in_Homer). For example, he uses it in the [Iliad, Book 1, lines 531-567](http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad1.htm):&#xA;&#xA;&gt; ‘Hera’ replied the father of men and gods, ‘do not expect to know all my thoughts: though you are my wife you would find it a burden. Whatever it is right for you to hear, no immortal, no human, shall know before you; but of what I plan without reference to the gods, make no question, do not ask.’&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; ‘Dread son of Cronos,’ the **ox-eyed** queen replied, ‘what is this? I have never questioned you, nor asked: you have ever peace to think on what you wish. But now my heart fears silver-footed Thetis, daughter of the Old Man of the Sea, has swayed you; for she knelt by you at dawn and clasped your knees. Dare I imagine that you bowed to her, gave her a firm pledge of support for Achilles, and promised slaughter by the Greek ships?’&#xA;&#xA;It is likely Homer chose to give her this nickname as her [patron animal was the cow](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hera#Emblems)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21335" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="531" RevisionGUID="f6ca2b87-1c3d-444f-9663-d07650ebe2c9" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Alas, **no**, they do not happen around the same time. The time difference is about 1350 years.&#xA;&#xA;The corresponding footnote in the source for the Toltec version states that&#xA;&#xA;&gt; 9. Anytime a number is in front of a name such as 8 Tochtli, the number refers to the day and the month and is correlated with a year. **The date in which the sun stood stilt [sic] corresponds with 52 BC** in the dates given by Ixtlilxochitl.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; (Emphasis mine.)&#xA;&#xA;For the Judeo-Christian version in Joshua, [this BibleHub website page](http://biblehub.com/timeline/joshua/1.htm) has a chronology for Joshua and gives **1406 B.C.** for the events of Joshua 10.&#xA;&#xA;Thus, these two myths are separated by **1354** years. Hence, these two events **did not** happen around the same time.&#xA;&#xA;---&#xA;&#xA;If you're really desperate to make the dates coincide, you can try to subtract 1664 years (the length of an age for the Toltecs) for no real good reason from 52 B.C. and get a date of 1716 B.C., which is only *310 years* away from the Joshua version! A small enough time span to invoke fuzzy memories and the Toltec desire to have significant events fit into a numerically significant chronolgy." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21336" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="527" RevisionGUID="d59b4733-ee28-41b1-a80f-558e22464fac" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="### The [Pomola][1] is  a snow bird spirit in Native American mythology, it lived on [Mt Katahdin][2] and caused cold weather&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&gt;In Penobscot folklore, the Pomola was a bird spirit that lived on Mt Katahdin. It was associated with night, wind, snow, and storms. Apparently it had a moose's head according to some legends. The [Penobscots][3] and [Abenakis][4] avoided climbing to the top of this mountain so as not to disturb it.&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][5]][5]&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.native-languages.org/pomola.htm&#xA;  [2]: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/TjWikiKatahdin.jpg&#xA;  [3]: http://www.penobscotnation.org/&#xA;  [4]: http://www.tolatsga.org/aben.html&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/aj4We.jpg&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/iRlQW.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21337" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="526" RevisionGUID="8cfcda9d-1d95-47c8-96d2-9af934fd3974" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="I don't really consider that a particularly good source. Virgil says that Cacus was Half Human, in the Aeneid, Book VIII:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; There was a cave here, receding to vast depths,&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; untouched by the sun’s rays, inhabited by the fell shape&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; of Cacus, **the half-human,** and the ground was always warm&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; with fresh blood, and the heads of men, insolently&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; nailed to the doors, hung there pallid with sad decay.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; **Vulcan was father to this monster:** and, as he moved&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; his massive bulk, he belched out his dark fires.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Now at last time brought what we wished, the presence&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; and assistance of a god.&#xA;&#xA;Additionally, I have been unable to find a single corroborating citation to your source about Medusa being Cacus's mother. Especially since, as a Gorgon, Medusa was a [Daughter of Phorcys and his sister Ceto, ancient Cthonic deities](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medusa), and was therefore not human.&#xA;&#xA;Finally, your source says that Cacus inherited Monstrousness from his mother, but we know that other children of Hephaestus were also monsters, for example in [Apollonius I](http://www.theoi.com/Text/ApolloniusRhodius1.html):&#xA;&#xA;&gt; [202] With him came Palaemonius, son of Olenian Lernus, of Lernus by repute, but his birth was from Hephaestus; and so he was crippled in his feet, but his bodily frame and his valour no one would dare to scorn.&#xA;&#xA;---&#xA;&#xA;Side note: Being a God did not shield one from Medusa. See: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/412/how-did-athena-keep-from-being-turned-into-stone-by-her-shield/415#415" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21338" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="148" RevisionGUID="9aeb0833-13a4-48c0-9b38-1868fb0c9aee" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The number `12` is used in most religions as something holy and perfect. In every religion you can see that the number twelve is always present in main events or facts:&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;e.g.&#xA;&#xA;* **Greek Mythology**: Labours of Hercules, the Dodecatheon and twelve Titans, according to Hesiod.&#xA;* **Christianity**: The 12 Disciples of Christ&#xA;* **Norse Mythology**: Odin had 12 sons&#xA;* **Islam**:  There are twelve Imams, legitimate successors of the Islamic prophet.&#xA;* **Judaism**: 12 tribes of Israel.&#xA;* **Sumerian Mythology**: 12 Major Gods &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;There are way too many examples where 12 is used and I it's probably because `12` had a special place for ancient people, since the use of the [Duodecimal][1] and [Sexagesimal][2] systems was widespread at the time and it's actually the first systems used in arithmetics. I have found no reference (and I believe there isn't any) as to **why** it is deemed a special number in a religious essence, apart from the fact that it had many mathematical properties, such as being the first number with six divisors.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The number 12 is a **highly respected and practical** number. It has **many factors for such a low number**, so it is one of the lowest easily-divisible numbers. Number 11 is not divisible, number 10 only has two factors (2 and 5) meaning that if you measure anything in tens, you can only divide it into either halves or pairs. Number 9 only divides into 3, number 8 only into 2 and 4, number 7 is a prime number with no factors, number 6 only breaks down into half or thirds, number 5 is a prime, you can only halve number 4 or 2, and 3 and 1 don't divide and are so small you wouldn't want to measure things in them, anyway. **Number 12, however, divides into 6, 4, 3 and 2, giving it a large number of practical uses where things have to be divided up into whole numbers, from calendars to clocks.** As a result of all these factors, mathematicians get excited about the number 12 and apparently, they always have done! For example, **Pythagoras, the classical mathematics genius, teacher, and leader of a pagan religious movement, taught that the number 12 had divine, profound mystical meaning.**&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[The Divine Number 12][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duodecimal&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexagesimal&#xA;  [3]: http://www.humanreligions.info/twelve.html#Maths" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21339" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="229" RevisionGUID="a436f47a-aecc-4dd6-9ce2-82bf4276fd0a" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="When the Argonauts reached Crete, Talos - the bronze guardian of [Europa](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_%28mythology%29) - managed to push them back to the sea with ease. The Argonauts were desperate for food and water, and Medea decided to use her magic to kill Talos. She &quot;sent forth baneful phantoms&quot; and as Talos was trying to stop them from reaching [Dikti](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dikti) (Europa's hideout), he accidentaly &quot;grazed his ankle on a pointed crag&quot;, releasing the [ichor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichor) from his single vein. &#xA;&#xA;Here's the story, as told in [Argonautica](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argonautica): &#xA;&#xA;&gt; And Talos, the man of bronze, as he broke off rocks from the hard cliff, stayed them from fastening hawsers to the shore, when they came to the roadstead of Dicte's haven. He was of the stock of bronze, of the men sprung from ash-trees, the last left among the sons of the gods; and the son of Cronos gave him to Europa to be the warder of Crete and to stride round the island thrice a day with his feet of bronze. Now in all the rest of his body and limbs was he fashioned of bronze and invulnerable; but beneath the sinew by his ankle was a blood-red vein; and this, with its issues of life and death, was covered by a thin skin. So the heroes, though outworn with toil, quickly backed their ship from the land in sore dismay. And now far from Crete would they have been borne in wretched plight, distressed both by thirst and pain, had not Medea addressed them as they turned away:&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Hearken to me. For I deem that I alone can subdue for you that man, whoever he be, even though his frame be of bronze throughout, unless his life too is everlasting. But be ready to keep your ship here beyond the cast of his stones, till he yield the victory to me.&quot; &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Thus she spake; and they drew the ship out of range, resting on their oars, waiting to see what plan unlooked for she would bring to pass; and she, holding the fold of her purple robe over her cheeks on each side, mounted on the deck; and Aeson's son took her hand in his and guided her way along the thwarts. And with songs did she propitiate and invoke the Death-spirits, devourers of life, the swift hounds of Hades, who, hovering through all the air, swoop down on the living. Kneeling in supplication, thrice she called on them with songs, and thrice with prayers; and, shaping her soul to mischief, with her hostile glance she bewitched the eyes of Talos, the man of bronze; and her teeth gnashed bitter wrath against him, and she sent forth baneful phantoms in the frenzy of her rage.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Father Zeus, surely great wonder rises in my mind, seeing that dire destruction meets us not from disease and wounds alone, but lo! even from afar, may be, it tortures us! So Talos, for all his frame of bronze, yielded the victory to the might of Medea the sorceress. And as he was heaving massy rocks to stay them from reaching the haven, he grazed his ankle on a pointed crag; and the ichor gushed forth like melted lead; and not long thereafter did he stand towering on the jutting cliff. But even as some huge pine, high up on the mountains, which woodmen have left half hewn through by their sharp axes when they returned from the forest—at first it shivers in the wind by night, then at last snaps at the stump and crashes down; so Talos for a while stood on his tireless feet, swaying to and fro, when at last, all strengthless, fell with a mighty thud. For that night there in Crete the heroes lay; then, just as dawn was growing bright, they built a shrine to Minoan Athena, and drew water and went aboard, so that first of all they might by rowing pass beyond Salmone's height.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Project Gutenberg EBook of The Argonautica, by Apollonius Rhodius](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/830/830-h/830-h.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21340" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="523" RevisionGUID="0046a106-3b18-4f65-9480-1c7e3f43e6b5" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Hephaestus and Medusa had a son named Cacus.  &#xA;&#xA;&gt;**Cacus was the son of Hephaestus and Medusa**. Inheriting the properties of fire from his father and monstrousness from his mother, Cacus was a fire-breathing monster who was sometimes described as a three-headed giant. He lived on human flesh and decorated his cave with the bones and skulls of his victims.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; source: [Cacus Versus Heracles by Nancy Conner, PhD](https://books.google.com/books?id=PGsRwPgxMikC&amp;pg=PT218#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false) &lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;How were Hephaestus and Cacus shielded from being turned to stone? Does being a God shield them?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21341" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="517" RevisionGUID="f16436a3-9b31-4ae0-b8d1-dc9470584952" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In order to learn the secrets of the runes (symbols of some of the most powerful forces in the cosmos), Odin hangs himself from Yggdrasil, pierces himself with his own spear, and peers downward to the Well of Urn for nine days. He fasts during this time and instructs the other gods not to assist him in any way.&#xA;&#xA;At the end of the ninth night he perceives some shapes on the depth of the Well. The runes have accepted his sacrifice (Odin is sacrificing himself to himself) and show themselves to him, and thus Odin is able to learn their secrets. &lt;sup&gt;[1]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Not that this is not a great feat, but if the process might consist in going through an ordeal were a being &quot;offers himself or herself&quot; to the runes, overcomes or withstands the ordeal and the runes accept this sacrifice, it could look like something that others might be tempted to try.&#xA;&#xA;Has any other god or entity in the Norse mythology, successfully or unsuccessfully, attempted to gain knowledge of the runes like Odin did?&#xA;&#xA;-------&#xA;&#xA;[1]: [One reference][1] to this process.&#xA;&#xA;[1]: http://norse-mythology.org/tales/odins-discovery-of-the-runes/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21342" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="515" RevisionGUID="b1c38c87-24c2-462b-b6d0-42b837675ec3" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="# Nothing.&#xA;&#xA;Or, more accurately, about as much as happens to us when one of our centuries ends - people worry about banking software crashing (aside: the ancient Mayans did not have banking software), and then nothing happens.&#xA;&#xA;David Stuart, a Maya researcher, [explains it on his blog: Baktuns and more Baktuns](https://decipherment.wordpress.com/2012/12/19/baktuns-and-more-baktuns/):&#xA;&#xA;&gt; This upcoming 13.0.0.0.0 date is a repetition of the “base” of the system which fell in 3114 BCE, also represented as 13.0.0.0.0. Back then, the subsequent bak’tun number was re-set as 1 (1.0.0.0.0) and thereafter their count progressed forward until the reappearance of 13 bak’tuns on December 21 of this year. This repetition of 13s has led some to suppose that a similar re-set of the bak’tun system is upon us now, and that we are destined to go back to 1.0.0.0.0 in some 400 years from now. This is not true. Based on texts from Palenque that project calendar stations far into the future, we know there will be a linear sequence of bak’tuns from here on, represented as 14.0.0.0.0, 15.0.0.0.0, and so on. This will run forward still until 19.0.0.0.0, about 2,400 years from now.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Notice that at the end of this roughly 13,000-year span that the bak’tun changes to 0 and the next higher period, the piktun, turns over as 1. As it happens, the piktun unit before this date was set at 13, although this is left unwritten in the dates above. (Mayanists have long tended to just write five numbers of the Long Count, following the convention of the ancient Maya scribes themselves. But we know that this is a truncated representation, and that there were many more cycles above bak’tun and piktun. The full system I call the “Grand Long Count” encompassed 24 units!)&#xA;&#xA;So, yeah, nothing. From [this NPR article](http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/12/20/167626648/maya-expert-the-end-of-times-is-our-idea-not-the-ancients), Stuart also said:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; &quot;It's a big deal — if you're an ancient Maya astronomer priest,&quot; Stuart says. &quot;But apart from that, they didn't say anything about ... what will be happening.&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21343" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="513" RevisionGUID="d3dbcf3a-8492-439e-93b2-5b5bc60e69d9" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Olympus has always been the home of the gods, even before Zeus' reign: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; (ll. 109-120) First of all the deathless gods who dwell on Olympus made a golden race of mortal men who lived in the time of Cronos when he was reigning in heaven. And they lived like gods without sorrow of heart, remote and free from toil and grief: miserable age rested not on them; but with legs and arms never failing they made merry with feasting beyond the reach of all evils. When they died, it was as though they were overcome with sleep, and they had all good things; for the fruitful earth unforced bare them fruit abundantly and without stint. They dwelt in ease and peace upon their lands with many good things, rich in flocks and loved by the blessed gods.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; (ll. 121-139) But after earth had covered this generation -- they are called pure spirits dwelling on the earth, and are kindly, delivering from harm, and guardians of mortal men; for they roam everywhere over the earth, clothed in mist and keep watch on judgements and cruel deeds, givers of wealth; for this royal right also they received; -- then they who dwell on Olympus made a second generation which was of silver and less noble by far. It was like the golden race neither in body nor in spirit. A child was brought up at his good mother's side an hundred years, an utter simpleton, playing childishly in his own home. But when they were full grown and were come to the full measure of their prime, they lived only a little time in sorrow because of their foolishness, for they could not keep from sinning and from wronging one another, nor would they serve the immortals, nor sacrifice on the holy altars of the blessed ones as it is right for men to do wherever they dwell. Then Zeus the son of Cronos was angry and put them away, because they would not give honour to the blessed gods who live on Olympus.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hesiod: Works And Days, translated by Hugh G. Evelyn-White][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;I'm not aware of any &quot;in-universe&quot; explanation of why the gods would favour Olympus over any other place. The logical explanation would be that it's the highest mountain in Greece, the closest you can get to the heavens.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/works.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21344" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="512" RevisionGUID="c4cbea13-ca05-4fff-af7f-6d35b7b0d957" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="### The Olympians defeated the Titans on [Mt. Olympus][1] and decided to build their kingdom at the scene of their greatest victory.  &#xA;&#xA;The [Titanomachy][2] (the great war between the Olympians and the Titans) took place on Olympus. &#xA;After the Olympians defeated the Titans, they proceeded to build their kingdom there, in honour of their victory.&#xA;&#xA;The exact mountain range referred to by Homer is still unknown as he offers little to no geological information about it. &#xA;&#xA;But there are some theories that the Greeks assumed Olympus was the seat of power for their gods as it was so high it _touched the clouds_. &#xA;&#xA;If this is true, then of all of the mountain ranges called Olympus throughout ancient Greece, Turkey and Cyprus only one breaks the 2000 meter trehsold to reach the clouds :  [Mytikas][3] at 2918 meters (9570 feet).&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.greek-gods.info/ancient-greece/mount-olympus/&#xA;  [2]: http://www.greekmyths-greekmythology.com/titans-and-titanomachy/&#xA;  [3]: http://sacredsites.com/europe/greece/mt_olympus.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21345" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="358" RevisionGUID="b9cc6386-d0ae-40a0-a219-01393a3c5ba1" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="**tl;dr** Mob rule.&#xA;&#xA;--- &#xA;&#xA;Penelope didn't have a choice. She may have been Queen of Ithaca, but she had little actual power. All men loyal to Odysseus had followed him to Troy, she simply had no way of forcing the suitors to leave the palace. And of course she feared that antagonizing the suitors in any way would put Telemachus' life in danger. &#xA;&#xA;Nevertheless, Telemachus did try to order the suitors out of the palace, in front of the Ithacan assembly: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Telemachus took this speech as of good omen and rose at once, for he was bursting with what he had to say. He stood in the middle of the assembly and the good herald Pisenor brought him his staff. Then, turning to Aegyptius, &quot;Sir,&quot; said he, &quot;it is I, as you will shortly learn, who have convened you, for it is I who am the most aggrieved. I have not got wind of any host approaching about which I would warn you, nor is there any matter of public moment on which I would speak. My grieveance is purely personal, and turns on two great misfortunes which have fallen upon my house. The first of these is the loss of my excellent father, who was chief among all you here present, and was like a father to every one of you; the second is much more serious, and ere long will be the utter ruin of my estate. The sons of all the chief men among you are pestering my mother to marry them against her will. They are afraid to go to her father Icarius, asking him to choose the one he likes best, and to provide marriage gifts for his daughter, but day by day they keep hanging about my father's house, sacrificing our oxen, sheep, and fat goats for their banquets, and never giving so much as a thought to the quantity of wine they drink. No estate can stand such recklessness; we have now no Ulysses to ward off harm from our doors, and I cannot hold my own against them. I shall never all my days be as good a man as he was, still I would indeed defend myself if I had power to do so, for I cannot stand such treatment any longer; my house is being disgraced and ruined. Have respect, therefore, to your own consciences and to public opinion. Fear, too, the wrath of heaven, lest the gods should be displeased and turn upon you. I pray you by Jove and Themis, who is the beginning and the end of councils, [do not] hold back, my friends, and leave me singlehanded- unless it be that my brave father Ulysses did some wrong to the Achaeans which you would now avenge on me, by aiding and abetting these suitors. Moreover, if I am to be eaten out of house and home at all, I had rather you did the eating yourselves, for I could then take action against you to some purpose, and serve you with notices from house to house till I got paid in full, whereas now I have no remedy.&quot; &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; With this Telemachus dashed his staff to the ground and burst into tears. Every one was very sorry for him, but they all sat still and no one ventured to make him an angry answer, save only Antinous, who spoke thus: &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Telemachus, insolent braggart that you are, how dare you try to throw the blame upon us suitors? It is your mother's fault not ours, for she is a very artful woman. This three years past, and close on four, she has been driving us out of our minds, by encouraging each one of us, and sending him messages without meaning one word of what she says. And then there was that other trick she played us. She set up a great tambour frame in her room, and began to work on an enormous piece of fine needlework. 'Sweet hearts,' said she, 'Ulysses is indeed dead, still do not press me to marry again immediately, wait- for I would not have skill in needlework perish unrecorded- till I have completed a pall for the hero Laertes, to be in readiness against the time when death shall take him. He is very rich, and the women of the place will talk if he is laid out without a pall.' &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Odyssey, Book II, translated by Samuel Butler](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/odyssey.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA; &#xA;Telemachus insolence was not only ignored, but it also instigated a plot amongst the suitors to kill him as he returned from his visits to [Nestor][1] and [Menelaus][2].&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestor_(mythology)&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menelaus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21346" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="361" RevisionGUID="03e3d08a-4499-4701-9f62-9b15d0225d4b" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="As far as I understood the myth of Medusa, she was punished by Athena (either for letting herself being raped by Poseidon or for [succumbing to Poseidon's woes][1]). Her sisters, Euryale and Stheno (all daughters of Phorcys and Ceto) stood with Medusa, and Athena transformed all of them in _gorgons_.&#xA;&#xA;I'm not surprised about the punishment of the gods, neither to Medusa for her offenses nor to her sisters for staying with her (most Greek mythos depict similar punishments for something that is almost responsibility of the gods), but I'm surprised by the fact that Medusa is depicted as the only mortal of the Gorgons: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; And again, Ceto bore to Phorcys the fair-cheeked Graiae, sisters grey from their birth: and both deathless gods and men who walk on earth call them Graiae, Pemphredo well-clad, and saffron-robed Enyo, and the Gorgons who dwell beyond glorious Ocean in the frontier land towards Night where are the clear-voiced Hesperides, Sthenno, and Euryale, and Medusa who suffered a woeful fate: **she was mortal, but the two were undying and grew not old.**&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hes. Th. 275](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hes.+Th.+275&amp;fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Why this difference between the three of them? Is something that is attributable to Athena when transforming the sisters? Or for any reason they were different in spite of being daughters of the same father and mother? Is is just due to the definition of &quot;immortal&quot; (meaning from &quot;not growing old&quot; to &quot;can't be killed or die&quot;)? &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;[1]:https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/299/171" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21347" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="372" RevisionGUID="f68fe57b-af12-4d97-a6c4-842e01190c3a" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="According to Norse Mythology, Ragnarök is a series of future events that means great disasters for the world and the end of many important and powerful gods:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; In Norse mythology, Ragnarök is a series of future events, including a great battle foretold to ultimately result in the death of a number of major figures (including the gods Odin, Thor, Týr, Freyr, Heimdallr, and Loki), the occurrence of various natural disasters, and the subsequent submersion of the world in water. Afterward, the world will resurface anew and fertile, the surviving and returning gods will meet, and the world will be repopulated by two human survivors . Ragnarök is an important event in the Norse canon, and has been the subject of scholarly discourse and theory.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;source: Wikipedia article on [Ragnarök](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar%C3%B6k)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;After Ragnarök, it is said that the world will be repopulated with two human survivors. How will these two human survivors be chosen? Will they be randomly chosen or selected by the remaining gods who didn't die during Ragnarök?&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21348" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="374" RevisionGUID="d465f6ed-8bc3-4838-a105-44bc33c8231d" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="[Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charon%27s_obol) actually has an interesting interpretation:&#xA;&gt; Attempts to explain the symbolism of the rite also must negotiate the illogical placement of the coin in the mouth. The Latin term *viaticum* makes sense of Charon’s obol as “sustenance for the journey,” and it has been suggested that coins replaced offerings of food for the dead in Roman tradition.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; This dichotomy of food for the living and gold for the dead is a theme in the myth of King Midas, versions of which draw on elements of the Dionysian mysteries. The Phrygian king's famous &quot;golden touch&quot; was a divine gift from Dionysus, but its acceptance separated him from the human world of nourishment and reproduction: both his food and his daughter were transformed by contact with him into immutable, unreciprocal gold. In some versions of the myth, Midas's hard-won insight into the meaning of life and the limitations of earthly wealth is accompanied by conversion to the cult of Dionysus. Having learned his lessons as an initiate into the mysteries, and after ritual immersion in the river Pactolus, Midas forsakes the “bogus eternity” of gold for spiritual rebirth.&#xA;&#xA;Wikipedia also says,&#xA;&gt; In Latin, Charon's obol sometimes is called a viaticum, or &quot;sustenance for the journey&quot;; the placement of the coin on the mouth has been explained also as a seal to protect the deceased's soul or to prevent it from returning.&#xA;&#xA;The basis for these interpretations are analyses of Latin writers; the theories stem from, among others, &quot;Charon's Obol&quot; by Susan T. Stevens (see below), *Money and the Early Greek Mind: Homer, Philosophy, Tragedy*, by Richard Seaford, and *Modern Greek Folklore and Ancient Greek Religion*, by John Cuthbert Lawson. The above quotes are condensations of their work as historians.&#xA;&#xA;I may be reading too much into this, but [*The Golden Ass*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Ass), by Apuleius, [contains this passage](http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Kharon.html) (emphasis mine):&#xA;&gt; (So even among the dead, greed enjoys its life; even that great god Charon, who gathers taxes for Dis [Haides], does not do anything for nothing. A poor man on the point of death must find his fare, and **no one will let him breathe his last until he has his copper ready.**) You must allow this squalid elder to take for your fare one of the coins you are to carry, but he must remove it form your mouth with his own hand.&#xA;&#xA;This seems to support the idea that the coin sealed a dead person's mouth, but it could be merely a complete coincidence; &quot;breathe his last&quot; could be used in place of &quot;die&quot;.&#xA;&#xA;[*Charon's Obol and Other Coins in Ancient Funerary Practice*, by Susan T. Stevens](http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1088792?uid=2134&amp;uid=391386161&amp;uid=3739808&amp;uid=2&amp;uid=391386151&amp;uid=70&amp;uid=3&amp;uid=3739256&amp;uid=60&amp;purchase-type=article&amp;accessType=none&amp;sid=21106252287221&amp;showMyJstorPss=false&amp;seq=6&amp;showAccess=false), gives evidence to support the *viaticum*-coin-as-sustenance theory, citing Apuleis's usage but as food, not breath. She does mention that other &quot;Latin authors&quot; (unspecified) wrote that the coin was used to seal the mouth to prevent the soul from escaping.&#xA;&#xA;The two main theories, therefore, are&#xA;&#xA; - Coins provide &quot;sustenance&quot; for the journey, like food, and so are placed on the mouth.&#xA; - Coins seal the mouth, which is the only opening from which a soul could escape. This could also be symbolic, e.g. representing the fact that the dead cannot talk." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21349" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="417" RevisionGUID="123d1e96-39f5-4b6d-9ca5-fc4481898c5f" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="I believe there is simply no clear explanation offered for this.&#xA;&#xA;Two sources I'm aware of make reference to the mortality of Medusa.  They are:&#xA;&#xA; - [Hesiod, Theogony, 276](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:abo:tlg,0020,001:276)&#xA;&#xA;   &gt; Gorgons who dwell beyond glorious Ocean in the frontier land towards Night where are the clear-voiced Hesperides, Sthenno, and Euryale, and Medusa who suffered a woeful fate: she was mortal, but the two were undying and grew not old. With her lay the Dark-haired One in a soft meadow amid spring flowers. &#xA;&#xA; - [Pseudo-Apollodorus, Library, 2.4.2](http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus2.html)&#xA;&#xA;   &gt; ...he flew to the ocean and caught the Gorgons asleep. They were Stheno, Euryale, and Medusa. Now Medusa alone was mortal; for that reason Perseus was sent to fetch her head.&#xA;&#xA;Neither of these offers any explanation of the phenomenon.&#xA;&#xA;Possible explanations:&#xA;&#xA; - Athena's punishment - While both of the quotes sources refer to Medusa having offspring with Poseidon, the first mention I can find of Athena's (more accurately Minerva's) punishment is [Ovid's Metamorphosies, Book 4](http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph4.htm#478205208), in response to the question of &quot;...why Medusa, alone among her sisters, had snakes twining in her hair.&quot;  Which is somewhat difficult to reconcile with the quoted Apollodorus myth, in which all three are described as similarly monstrous:&#xA;   &gt; But the Gorgons had heads twined about with the scales of dragons, and great tusks like swine's, and brazen hands, and golden wings, by which they flew; and they turned to stone such as beheld them.&#xA;&#xA; - Perhaps it just works out that way sometimes.   Looking at the offspring of Phorcys and Ceto, some few of them appear to have been killed.  In one version of the story, Ladon was killed by Heracles, in pursuit of the Apples of the Hesperides (his 11th labor).  Echidna was killed by Argus Panoptes, as related in pseudo-Apollodorus Library.  &#xA;&#xA;    The idea that, by some chance of fate, she was born mortal seems more in line with my impression from the phrasing used in translations of Hesiod, with phrases like &quot;suffered a woeful fate&quot; or &quot;suffered grievously&quot;, in the two translation I've seen.  That turn of phrase seems interesting to me.  Analysis of the original text might be valuable here, but I am unequipped to provide it." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21350" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="419" RevisionGUID="d5ebf350-bcf0-4977-9e2d-0aba55b0075d" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Odin's ravens would continuously fly all over Midgard to collect information and bring it back to Odin.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; In Norse mythology, Huginn (from Old Norse &quot;thought&quot;) and Muninn&#xA;&gt; (Old Norse &quot;memory&quot; or &quot;mind&quot;) are a pair of ravens that fly all&#xA;&gt; over the world, Midgard, and bring information to the god Odin.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;In the poem [Grímnismál][2], it is said that Odin is afraid the two ravens would not come back.&#xA;&#xA;&gt;    Hugin and Munin fly each day &lt;br/&gt;&#xA;&gt;    over the spacious earth. &lt;br/&gt;&#xA;&gt;    I fear for Hugin, that he come not back, &lt;br/&gt;&#xA;&gt;    yet more anxious am I for Munin.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Why would a god be afraid that his ravens would not come back? Is there any secret meaning, connected to the ravens' names (Memory and Thought)?&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huginn_and_Muninn&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe06.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21351" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="605" RevisionGUID="cc6a6f00-c0f8-4b46-bf49-220db21786b3" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In [Leviticus 16.8-10](http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9917#v=8), there is a reference to Azazel (עֲזָאזֵל):&#xA;&#xA;&gt;   חוְנָתַן אַהֲרֹן עַל שְׁנֵי הַשְּׂעִירִם גֹּרָלוֹת גּוֹרָל אֶחָד לַיהֹוָה וְגוֹרָל אֶחָד לַעֲזָאזֵל:  &#xA;&gt;   טוְהִקְרִיב אַהֲרֹן אֶת הַשָּׂעִיר אֲשֶׁר עָלָה עָלָיו הַגּוֹרָל לַיהוָֹה וְעָשָׂהוּ חַטָּאת:  &#xA;&gt;   יוְהַשָּׂעִיר אֲשֶׁר עָלָה עָלָיו הַגּוֹרָל לַעֲזָאזֵל יָעֳמַד חַי לִפְנֵי יְהוָֹה לְכַפֵּר עָלָיו לְשַׁלַּח אֹתוֹ לַעֲזָאזֵל הַמִּדְבָּרָה:&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; And Aaron shall place lots upon the two he goats: one lot &quot;For the Lord,&quot; and the other lot, &quot;For Azazel.&quot;  &#xA;&gt; And Aaron shall bring the he goat upon which the lot, &quot;For the Lord,&quot; came up, and designate it as a sin offering.     &#xA;&gt; And the he goat upon which the lot &quot;For Azazel&quot; came up, shall be placed while still alive, before the Lord, to [initiate] atonement upon it, and to send it away to Azazel, into the desert.&#xA;&#xA;It would be extraordinarily unusual for Aaron to be sacrificing a goat to a separate entity. Arguably the most important prayer in Judaism is the [Shema](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shema_Yisrael), &quot;Hear oh Israel, the Lord is G-d, the Lord is One!&quot; &#xA;&#xA;- So, then, who or what is Azazel? Is Azazel a deity or a concept (as discussed under [Wikipedia: Scapegoat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapegoat))? &#xA;   - If the former, why would Aaron be sacrificing to a second entity?&#xA;   - If the latter, what did the ceremony *actually* mean?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21352" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="431" RevisionGUID="15ddfcbb-5eab-4acd-8099-81d5593805c3" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The 12 is a holy number, because, according to Sitchin interpretation of Sumerian mythology, this is how gods grouped the stars in each sky segment into constellations (known as the twelve zodiac constellations) and named them after their own leaders ([The Pantheon of Twelve][1], e.g. [Taurus][2], etc.).&#xA;&#xA;&gt; To them (gods) this number, twelve, was a basic number to be applied in all celestial matters affecting the Bond Heaven-Earth.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; [...] they grouped the stars in each sky segment into constellations. &lt;sup&gt;[p.49][3]&lt;/sup&gt;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/206/51&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/182/51&#xA;  [3]: https://ia701206.us.archive.org/20/items/CompleteWorksportugusEnglish/ZechariaSitchin-TheCosmicCode.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21353" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="475" RevisionGUID="04fb4264-7a15-45ea-91d4-d7053916986e" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Most gods die during the battle together with the evil and the two people are left to repopulate the world. [The Children of Odin][1] addresses the event in an easily comprehensible way:&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&gt; What said Odin to the Gods and to the Champions who surrounded him?&#xA;&gt; **&quot;We will give our lives and let our world be destroyed, but we will&#xA;&gt; battle so that these evil powers will not live after us.&quot;** Out of Hel's&#xA;&gt; ship sprang Fenrir the Wolf. His mouth gaped; his lower jaw hung&#xA;&gt; against the earth, and his upper jaw scraped the sky. Against the Wolf&#xA;&gt; Odin All-Father fought. Thor might not aid him, for Thor had now to&#xA;&gt; encounter Jörmungand, the monstrous serpent.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; By Fenrir the Wolf **Odin was slain**. But the younger Gods were now&#xA;&gt; advancing to the battle; and Vidar, the Silent God, came face to face&#xA;&gt; with Fenrir. He laid his foot on the Wolf's lower jaw, that foot that&#xA;&gt; had on the sandal made of all the scraps of leather that shoemakers&#xA;&gt; had laid by for him, and with his hands he seized the upper jaw and&#xA;&gt; tore his gullet. **Thus died Fenrir**, the fiercest of all the enemies of&#xA;&gt; the Gods.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; Jörmungand, the monstrous serpent, would have overwhelmed all with the&#xA;&gt; venom he was ready to pour forth. But Thor sprang forward and crushed&#xA;&gt; him with a stroke of his hammer Miölnir. **Then Thor stepped back nine&#xA;&gt; paces. But the serpent blew his venom over him, and blinded and choked&#xA;&gt; and burnt, Thor, the World's Defender, perished.**&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; Loki sprang from his ship and strove with Heimdall, the Warder of the&#xA;&gt; Rainbow Bridge and the Watcher for the Gods. **Loki slew Heimdall and&#xA;&gt; was slain by him.**&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; Bravely fought Tyr, the God who had sacrificed his swordhand for the&#xA;&gt; binding of the Wolf. Bravely he fought, and many of the powers of evil&#xA;&gt; perished by his strong left hand. **But Garm, the hound with bloody&#xA;&gt; jaws, slew Tyr.**&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[The Children of Odin][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;The text goes on many deaths take place. Together with the gods, the evil also dies, which is what Odin was striving for.&#xA;&#xA;After [Ragnarok][3]: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Deep in a wood two of human kind were left; the fire of Surtur did not touch them; they slept, and when they wakened the world was green and beautiful again. These two fed on the dews of the morning; a woman and a man they were, Lif and Lifthrasir. They walked abroad in the world, and from them and from their children came the men and women who spread themselves over the earth.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[The Children of Odin][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;But some of the gods survive as well:&#xA;  &#xA;&gt; Other survivors of Ragnarok included some of the gods, particularly Odin's brother Honir, Odin's sons Vidar and Vali, Thor's sons Modi and Magni. Another of Odin's sons, Balder, was revived from the dead after the battle.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Ancient Mythology][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;The surviving gods talk to each other about Ragnarok:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Gods. The runes told them of a heaven that was above Asgard, of Gimli, that was untouched by Surtur's fire. Vili and Ve, Will and Holiness, ruled in it. Baldur and Hödur came from Hela's habitation, and the Gods sat on the peak together and held speech with each other, calling to mind the secrets and the happenings they had known before Ragnarök, the Twilight of the Gods.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[The Children of Odin][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0025VKZFM/?tag=stackoverfl08-20&#xA;  [2]: http://sacred-texts.com/neu/ice/coo/coo36.htm&#xA;  [3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar%C3%B6k&#xA;  [4]: http://sacred-texts.com/neu/ice/coo/coo36.htm&#xA;  [5]: http://www.ancient-mythology.com/norse/ragnarok.php" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21354" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="479" RevisionGUID="bd12e557-6a1a-460b-9d09-7d4d500c6140" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="This is the offshoot I mentioned of [this question](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/448/how-old-was-merlin-when-he-died-at-the-hand-of-niviane-or-the-lady-of-the-lake).&#xA;&#xA;According to [this](http://www.timelessmyths.com/arthurian/merlin.html#DeadMerlin),&#xA;&gt; In a few tales, a maiden or a fay had trapped Merlin in an enchantment. The most famous was the Lady of the Lake. Again, there are few versions involving his death at the hand of the Lady of the Lake.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The Lady of the Lake was a powerful sorceress and the lady of Otherworldly realm, hidden by the illusionary lake. The Lady of the Lake was known by several other names, such as Niniane, Viviane and Nimue. Further confusion resulted when some author listed several women with title the Lady of the Lake.&#xA;&#xA;Following [a link](http://www.timelessmyths.com/arthurian/women.html#Lake),&#xA;&gt; There seemed to be several &quot;Lady of the Lake&quot;. The most important Lady of the Lake was Niniane (also known as Viviane, Vivien or Nimue). Some even say that Morgan le Fay was also the Lady of the Lake, though most often Morgan was referred to as one of nine sorceresses of Avalon.&#xA;&#xA;Even more detail is given [here](http://www.kingarthursknights.com/others/ladylake.asp). I looked at [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_of_the_Lake) and found:&#xA;&gt; The Post-Vulgate Cycle's second Lady of the Lake is called Ninianne, and her story is nearly identical to the one in the Lancelot-Grail, though it adds her bestowal of the magic sword Excalibur to Arthur. Sir Thomas Malory also uses both Ladies of the Lake in his Le Morte d'Arthur; he leaves the first one unnamed and calls the second one Nimue.&#xA;&#xA;It seems like the &quot;some author&quot; mentioned in the first quote is Sir Thomas Malory.&#xA;&#xA;Is there any connection between the two Ladies of the Lake, given that Malory implies that they are separate figures?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21355" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="485" RevisionGUID="b1046f59-1559-4d94-a1c7-012159357efe" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="When Dionysus fetches Semele from Hades and introduces her to Olympus, she is no longer a human being, but a goddess. The name change is actually due to this transformation.&#xA;&#xA;&gt;Στην ελληνική μυθολογία το όνομα **Θυώνη** ήταν μια άλλη ονομασία της μητέρας του θεού Διονύσου, της **Σεμέλης**. Η εξήγηση που δίνεται για τη μεταξύ τους διαφορά είναι ότι «**Σεμέλη**» είναι η θνητή υπόσταση της μητέρας του θεού, ενώ «**Θυώνη**» είναι η **Σεμέλη** μετά την αποθέωσή της (δηλαδή τη μετατροπή της σε θεά) από τον Διόνυσο, ο οποίος την έφερε στον Όλυμπο παίρνοντάς την από τον Άδη.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;source: Wikipedia article on [Thyone](http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%98%CF%85%CF%8E%CE%BD%CE%B7)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;------------------&#xA;&gt;In Greek mythology the name **Thyone** was another name of Dionysus' mother, **Semele**. The difference is that **Semele** is a mortal aspect of Dionysus' mother, while **Thyone** is actually **Semele** after her **Αποθέωσις** (which means deification in Greek).&#xA;&#xA;Little is however known about the etymology of the name **Semele**. One theory is that it's derived from the word `Θεμέλη` which means Earth in ancient Greek. That said, the names are tied to **Themele's** subsistence at the time." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21356" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="492" RevisionGUID="ffdd939b-a851-4775-a457-123271a6711c" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="There is no clear explanation on this and opinions seem to vary, some of which are the following:&#xA;&#xA; - The name comes from a Giant called `Πάλλαντας` (**Pallantas**), whom Athena killed during the Titanomachy.&#xA;&#xA; - Athena got that name because she was born out of Zeus' head by throbbing her spear.&#xA;&#xA; - The name is attributed to a friend of Athena, whom she killed accidentally, so she was named after her, in terms of recognition and so that she could be remembered.&#xA;&#xA;**Kontos Aleksandros**, a linguist and sociologist, believes the following interpretation to be the most precise:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The main significance of the verb `Πάλλω` is to shake a lottery, until the ejection of the results, which would be the people to take place as judges in the supreme court of Ancient Greece. Since it was feared that there would be a fraud in who would get selected, the people is charge of the draw would throb the lottery, until the names of the judges came out, due to that movement of the lottery jar.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Οι προσωνυμίες της Αθηνάς][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;-------&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The primary importance therefore of **Pallas** is the motion that someone does in a legatee to achieve the draw. And **Pallas** means the custodian of the draw, the custodian of the Republic. And **Pallas** Athena was primarily the protector of democratic Athens.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Οι προσωνυμίες της Αθηνάς][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;------------------&#xA;&#xA;Apollodorus informs us about Pallas, Athena's friend:&#xA;&#xA;&gt;They say that when Athena was born she was brought up by Triton,  who had a daughter Pallas; and that both girls practised the arts of war, but that once on a time they fell out; and when Pallas was about to strike a blow, Zeus in fear interposed the aegis, and Pallas, being startled, looked up, and so fell wounded by Athena. And being exceedingly grieved for her, Athena made a wooden image in her likeness, and wrapped the aegis, which she had feared, about the breast of it, and set it up beside Zeus and honored it.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Apollodorus 3.12.3][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;  &#xA;More than one interpretations might be true in their own aspect. In the aspect of mythology, Apollodorus' version is correct. But in the aspect of reality (why the people who worshipped Athena named her **Pallas** and why the had to find a myth that gave her that name), Kontos Aleksandros' analysis might be true as well.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://lykomidis.wordpress.com/2010/01/17/%CE%BF%CE%B9-%CF%80%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%83%CF%89%CE%BD%CF%85%CE%BC%CE%AF%CE%B5%CF%82-%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82-%CE%B8%CE%B5%CE%AC%CF%82-%CE%B1%CE%B8%CE%B7%CE%BD%CE%AC%CF%82/&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus3.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21357" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="500" RevisionGUID="2d748b73-5b53-46be-aa58-eb98d818ec9d" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="As written [on timelessmyths.com's page on the Vulgate Cycle](http://www.timelessmyths.com/arthurian/vulgate.html),&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The Quest of the Holy Grail introduced the new Grail hero: Galahad, the son of Lancelot and Elaine, daughter of King Pelles. Galahad with his two companions, Sir Perceval and Sir Bors were the only Knights of the Round Table to complete the mysterious quest. It is only Galahad achieved the ultimate spiritual enlightenment of the Grail mystery. The story ended with the death of Galahad and Perceval. With Galahad's death, the Grail vanished.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; With the disappearance of the Grail from Britain, it also meant the withdrawal of God's grace from Britain.&#xA;&#xA;It seems quite odd that the Holy Grail, one of the most sacred relics in Arthurian literature, should disappear for all eternity and never re-appear. Does the Vulgate Cycle (also known as the Lancelot-Grail Cycle) discuss a possible return of the Holy Grail to Britain - or anywhere else, for that matter?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21358" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="509" RevisionGUID="209ae01b-10e4-4f58-86fe-e4b9e69fa3c1" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Hades leaving his cozy domain was rare, but not unheard of. Persephone wasn't the only reason that compelled him to take a trip above ground, she wasn't even his only kidnapping; [Leuce][1] suffered a similar fate.  &#xA;&#xA;Kidnappings aside, Hades was present when Hercules besieged Pylos, presumably collecting the souls of the dead:  &#xA;&#xA;&gt; And so suffered monstrous Hades even as the rest a bitter arrow, when this same man, the son of Zeus that beareth the aegis, smote him in Pylos amid the dead, and gave him over to pains. But he went to the house of Zeus and to high Olympus with grief at heart, pierced through with pains; &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hom. Il. 5.395](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hom.+Il.+5.395&amp;fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xA;&#xA;In another instance, Hades visits Olympus to bring accusations against [Asclepius][2]: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; [4.71.2] Consequently, the myth goes on to say, Hades brought accusation against Asclepius, charging him before Zeus of acting to the detriment of his own province, for, he said, the number of the dead was steadily diminishing, now that men were being healed by Asclepius.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; [4.71.3] So Zeus, in indignation, slew Asclepius with his thunderbolt, but Apollo, indignant at the slaying of Asclepius, murdered the Cyclopes who had forged the thunderbolt for Zeus; but at the death of the Cyclopes Zeus was again indignant and laid a command upon Apollo that he should serve as a labourer for a human being and that this should be the punishment he should receive fro him for his crimes.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Bibliotheca historica, Diodorus Siculus](http://www.theoi.com/Text/DiodorusSiculus4D.html)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leuce_%28mythology%29&#xA;  [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asclepius" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21359" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="473" RevisionGUID="4fd5b78b-1a82-4f19-8a85-594fd62c4e77" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="It's not made clear how the Earth was created. It just came to be, having been born after Chaos came into existence:&#xA;&#xA;Citing [Wikipedia][1]:&#xA;&gt; Η Γαία (αρχ. ελλ.: Γαῖα) προϋπήρχε με το Χάος και τον Έρωτα-Φάνη στη δημιουργία του Κόσμου.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Earth pre-existed with Chaos and Eros (Love) in the creation of the world.&#xA;&#xA;Citing [Theogonia][2]:&#xA;&#xA;&gt;First of all Chawos [Gap] came into being. But then Gaia broadchested, always the unshakable seat of all the immortals who hold the peaks of snowy Olympus,and dark Tartaros in the recesses of the wide-wayed earth, and Eros, the most beautiful among the immortal gods, loosener of limbs, who subdues the mind and prudent counsel in the chests of all gods and of all men.&#xA;&#xA;So, once can suggest, that Earth was a deity which pre-existed, without an explanation of how it came to be.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%93%CE%B1%CE%AF%CE%B1_%28%CE%BC%CF%85%CE%B8%CE%BF%CE%BB%CE%BF%CE%B3%CE%AF%CE%B1%29&#xA;  [2]: https://www.msu.edu/~tyrrell/theogon.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21360" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1352" RevisionGUID="3d231730-b015-44c3-8a26-4a0f24e57039" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The problem is that you can't look at a God as an equivalent of a person with a distinct and very limited identity. The gods we more fluid in how they were represented and worshipped and during the time in which they were worshipped. When simply enumerating that Hera's sacred birds are a Cuckoo, Peacock, etc., you lose that people living in one community may have had a lot of Peacocks but had never seen a Cuckoo before, so they naturally revered the Peacock instead. &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Priest: And Hera's sacred bird is the Cuckoo  &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Worshiper: Ohh. What's a &quot;Cuckoo&quot;?  &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Priest: Uhm, [*looks around frantically*] ... that bird over there!  &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Worshiper: ...Looks kind of like a Peacock to me.    &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Priest: Well, it would. That is why I am a priest. Now kneel before the goddess and pray or I will give you such a pinch!!  &#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21361" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1350" RevisionGUID="05e7057f-1a69-46a1-a48a-11157ffe9cb4" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Wikipedia answers this sufficiently: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; ### [Poetic Edda][1]&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The Poetic Edda is the modern attribution for an unnamed collection of Old Norse poems. Several versions exist, all consisting primarily of text from the Icelandic mediaeval manuscript known as the [Codex Regius][2]. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; --- &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; ### [Prose Edda][3] &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The Prose Edda, also known as the Younger Edda, Snorri's Edda or simply Edda, is an Old Norse work of literature written in Iceland in the early 13th century. Together with the Poetic Edda, it comprises the major store of Scandinavian mythology. The work is often assumed to have been written, or at least compiled, by the Icelandic scholar and historian [Snorri Sturluson][4] around the year 1220.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The Prose Edda is related to the Poetic Edda in that the Prose Edda cites various poems collected in the Poetic Edda as sources.&#xA;&#xA;If you are interested in a closer look, you may find English translations of both on [sacred-texts.com][5]:&#xA;&#xA;- [The Poetic Edda, translated by Henry Adams Bellows][6]&#xA;- [The Prose Edda of Snorri Sturlson, translated by Arthur Gilchrist Brodeur][7] &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Regius&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prose_Edda&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snorri_Sturluson&#xA;  [5]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/&#xA;  [6]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/&#xA;  [7]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21362" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2320" RevisionGUID="8abef215-e20a-493a-a148-e52973abbc16" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Sigurd refuses to tell his name to the dying Fafnir: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; So whenas Fafnir had his death-wound, he asked &quot;Who art thou? And who is thy father? And what thy kin, that thou wert so hardy as to bear weapons against me?&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Sigurd answered, &quot;Unknown to men is my kin. I am called a noble beast: neither father have I nor mother, and all alone have I fared hither.&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Chapter 18, The Story of the Volsungs, translated by William Morris and Eirikr Magnusson&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;The translator notes that this is a reference to &quot;the superstition that a dying man could throw a curse on his enemy&quot;. When Fafnir asks a second time, though, Sigurd decides to reveal himself for no apparent reason: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Said Fafnir, &quot;Whereas thou hast neither father nor mother, of what wonder weft thou born then? But now, though thou tellest me not thy name on this my death-day, yet thou knowest verily that thou liest unto me.&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; He answered, &quot;Sigurd am I called, and my father was Sigmund.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;Why the sudden change of heart? &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21363" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2808" RevisionGUID="021584e1-0a4a-415e-9e52-c8587fec4fc7" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="# Did Ragnarök myths influence the Revelation?&#xA;&#xA;Nearly all of the imagery in the Revelation (singular; not Revelation*s*) is borrowed from the Hebrew bible (i.e. the Old Testament). Of the remainder, most of it can be found in other first century Jewish and Christian literature, or in first century Greco-Roman myths and politics.&#xA;&#xA;To break down specific points raised in the original question:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; a concept [of 'Ragnarok', i.e. an eschaton] is not found in the Old Testament and is not associated with Jewish mythology and thought&#xA;&#xA;Eschatological expectations of an idealized future, often after a period of conflict, are found in some of the later prophets of the Hebrew bible (e.g. Trito-Isaiah, Trito-Zechariah, Joel).&#xA;&#xA;John's Revelation is a textbook example of a Jewish apocalypse. Early elements of the genre can be found in pre-exilic and exilic Hebrew prophetic literature. The genre really took off in the late Persian or early Greek era. The defining purpose of the apocalyptic genre is to reveal something hidden about the world, especially as related to the unseen spiritual realm and the future ('apocalypse' means 'revelation' or 'a revealing'). Elaborate symbolism is a usual feature in these apocalypses, such as Daniel, Enoch's Book of Parables, or Fourth Ezra.&#xA;&#xA;The same period when apocalypticism was growing within Judaism, factions emerged in Judean politics. By the first century AD, the three most well-known factions were the Pharisees, Essenes, and Sadducees. Even at the time (e.g. by Josephus) they were defined by their eschatological views, showing just how important 'the eschaton' was in Israelite society. Similarities are drawn between the early Christians and both the Pharisees and the Essenes. To put it simply, eschatological beliefs *were* a major part of 'Jewish mythology and thought', and have a complex history going back centuries prior to the Revelation.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Similarities with Revelations/Ragnarok may be said to include the Sun being swallowed up,&#xA;&#xA;The failing of the sun, moon, and stars is a common picture in ancient Israelite and Judean prophetic texts (e.g. Amos 5.18-20; Isa 13.10,13; Ezek 32.7-8; Joel 2.10). In the older examples, it is plainly idiomatic, denoting social upheaval, i.e. the disruption or overthrow of a nation. Later examples employ it in a more traditionally climactic sense, i.e. history-ending.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; a great serpent rising from the sea,&#xA;&#xA;This seems to be combining two different images in the Revelation, first the dragon which is thrown out of heaven (Rev 12.3-9) and is imprisoned in the abyss (20.1-3), and second the crimson beast which emerges from the sea (13.1) or abyss (11.7; 17.8).&#xA;&#xA;The Revelation's dragon or sea-monster comes from the Combat Myth, an archetypal myth seen in many Indo-European cultures. In the ancient Near East this myth predates the Revelation by centuries, and can be seen across the Hebrew bible (e.g. Isa 27.1; 51.9; Psa 74.12-14; Job 26.12-13).&#xA;&#xA;The Revelation's beast is an amalgam of Daniel 7.1-14's four beasts, each of which emerges from the sea. The Daniel 7 passage is vaguely reminiscent of the Combat Myth, but its specific verbage — one riding on the clouds, receiving an eternal kingdom — draws attention to a particular Ugaritic form of the Combat Myth in which Baal conquers the sea god Yam and receives an eternal kingdom.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; the dead rising,&#xA;&#xA;The resurrection of the dead can be found in at least three texts of the Hebrew bible.&#xA;&#xA;The latest is the Book of Daniel, published circa 167-165 BC. It is almost certainly the final of the canonical prophets, and envisions 'the time of the end' as a period of crisis (the Maccabean Revolt) followed by the downfall of Israel's oppressor (Antiochus Epiphanes). Daniel 12 relays that those who died in the crisis will be raised to life for either reward or punishment.&#xA;&#xA;Prior to this, the image of the dead being restored to life is found in Ezek 37.1-14, written circa 585 BC. Here the scene is widely agreed to be a metaphor for the restoration of the Judean nation after the Babylonian exile.&#xA;&#xA;The third text is Isaiah 24-27. Dating for this text is disputed, ranging from the eighth century BC to the fifth or fourth century BC. There is also debate whether the image of the dead rising is meant to be a metaphor, as in Ezekiel, or literal, as in Daniel. It has been suggested the dead rising in Isaiah 24-27 has parallels in Ugaritic mythology (cf. Cho, Fu, 'Death and Feasting in the Isaiah Apocalypse (Isaiah 25.6-8)', *Formation and Intertextuality in Isaiah 24-27* (ed. Hibbard, Kim)).&#xA;&#xA;The Revelation draws on all three examples. The Revelation's structure is designed to follow both Daniel and Ezekiel, so that the resurrection is seen near the end of the book. Rev 20.4 καὶ ἔζησαν (they lived) is identical to LXX Ezek 37.10. And Rev 7.17 and 21.4 each verbally echo Isa 25.8.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; fire raining down upon the world,&#xA;&#xA;Fire as a form of divine judgment is replete across the Hebrew bible, and features heavily in apocalyptic literature.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; and a horn sounding to signal the onset of the end.&#xA;&#xA;In the Hebrew bible, trumpets are used in Israelite religious festivals, worship practices, and war. Of special interest here, the sounding of a trumpet is associated with eschatological expectations in Zechariah 9.14 (written in the sixth century BC) and Joel 2.1 (date disputed; third century BC at the latest).&#xA;&#xA;---&#xA;&#xA;# Conclusion&#xA;&#xA;Did the Ragnarök mythos influence the Revelation?&#xA;&#xA;Almost certainly not.&#xA;&#xA;The earliest evidence of the Ragnarök mythos, such as Thorwald's Cross or the Gosforth Cross, seems to be found no earlier than the tenth century AD. As the name of these objects indicates, however, these come from an age long after Christianity had swept across Europe. So though the Ragnarök mythos probably goes a ways earlier than the tenth century AD, we can't say for certain *when* it originated.&#xA;&#xA;In contrast, a substantial chunk of the Revelation's imagery predate the book by centuries. The Revelation was written circa AD 90-95, and comes from a long-standing tradition of apocalyptic expectations within Judaism. Other than the specific Christian ideas present in the text and allusions to contemporary Greco-Roman symbolism (e.g. 'Babylon the great city' sitting on 'seven hills' corresponding to Rome 'the city of the seven hills'), most of the Revelation's imagery comes from Hebrew scriptures that are centuries old, which themselves contain pictures and ideas centuries older than that." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21364" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2806" RevisionGUID="0fe1a6a4-a4c7-4de2-bfd8-faceacb7aae6" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Part of the confusion may derive from the &quot;[fuzziness][1]&quot; subject. Time is not strictly rational in the Greek myths, so why should proportion be firmly fixed? More confusion may be injected in regarding all, as opposed to merely some, of the Titans, being huge. Finally, there is the question of who is and who is not a Titan, and according to whom? &#xA;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xA;&#xA;**Perspective**&#xA;&#xA;When regarding the size Greek gods, stature influences conception.  Zeus is towering per his power, but we regard him as dwarfed by the chthonic giants.  Representationally, in the case of the metope, Atlas is of *lesser* stature than either Athena or Heracles, and representing him as larger would give the wrong impression.  Remember that the idea of perspective in art is just starting to develop, and in the dominant tradition, commonly seen in Egypt, relative size of a subject is a function of importance.  Note the normal size of [the Erymanthian Boar in a reconstruction of another metope][2] from the Temple of Zeus, and [this vase depicting the same image][3]. Yet the boar was said to be monstrous in stature, [as depicted on this vase][4]. I don't think it's coincidental that the boar is larger when a living threat than it is once vanquished.&#xA;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xA;&#xA;**Titans are not all the same size**&#xA;&#xA;Atlas is assuredly gigantic:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; &quot;...crafty Atlas, who knows the full depths of the sea, and holds, himself, the towering pillars which hold apart the earth and sky.&quot; &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Homer, *Odyssey* 1.52-54][5] | [English][6]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xA;&#xA;Unless we conceive of Atlas through the lens of Sun Wu Kong, who flits to the depths of the four seas on a whim, the implication is that Atlas knows the full depths of the seas because his feet rest on the bottom.   &#xA;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Atlas through hard constraint upholds the wide heaven with unwearying head and arms, standing at the borders of the earth&quot; &lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Hesiod, *Theogony* 517-517][7]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xA;&#xA;When we combine these two early descriptions, it's easy to see why Atlas is regarded as mountainous.  &#xA;&#xA;The association with pillars is further reinforced in the architectural [*atlantes*][8]. The lexical entry from the Liddell/Scott reads:  Ἄτλαντες, in Architecture, colossal statues as supports for the entablature.&quot;  This is, in part, a commemoration of Atlas as benefactor, turned to stone to keep the sky from crashing down to earth.&#xA;&#xA;But it's hard to regard such Titans as [Leto][9] or [Themis][10] as gigantic. (Themis highlights another issue in that she is tricked into making herself tiny so that Zeus, himself a master shapeshifter, can swallow her.)  &#xA;&#xA;[Epimetheus][11], generally regarded as the husband of Pandora, must have been man-sized or there would have been problems in the marital bed. *(The presumed difference in the size of Loki and [Angrboða][12], by contrast, would seem not to present such difficulties, and calls to mind a certain [Almodóvar film][13];)*&#xA;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xA;&#xA;**Who is and who is not a Titan, and according to whom?**&#xA;&#xA;We're talking about a canon that forms over a millennium in textual form.  Later mythographers begin to conflate the Titanomachy and Gigantomachy, and giants with Titans, and the only thing constant is the state of flux.&#xA;&#xA;Creating confusion is the existence of a Titan [Pallas][14] and a Giant [Pallas][15]. These may be conflated as the former comes from Hesiod, and the latter from Apollodorus, many centuries later.  The Apollodorus further conflicts with Euripides' account of who was flayed by Athena during the battle. It's not that one author is right and the other wrong so much as each storyteller has their own take. &#xA;&#xA;There's the question of [Typhon][16]. Not officially a Titan, but as the progeny of Gaia and Tartarus (compare to Gaia and Ouranos), Typhon is certainly a similar category of being, with [a similar cycle][17] of striving against the Olympians abd being cast down. [&quot;In size and strength [Typhon] surpassed all the offspring of Earth.&quot;][18] From a modern perspective, influenced by the [Harryhausen][19] classic &quot;[Clash of the Titans][20]&quot;, it's not difficult to see how a being like Typhon, or, in this case, [the Kraken][21], might come to be *thought of* as a Titan. This may shed some light on both the confusion arising from ancient sources, and the exacerbation of that confusion in the present era per often poorly sourced or misleading information, and suboptimal translations.&#xA;&#xA;**In the early accounts, what seems to distinguish Titans is not their size but their early genesis and primal nature.** &#xA;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xA;&#xA;__________________________________________________&#xA;*Hopefully this provides some answers on the question of Atlas in particular, and the Titans in general.  Although **I heartily agree that not all Titans would have been gigantic**, and there is a similar example in Norse mythology, where not all giants seem to be the same size.*  &#xA;&#xA;*The association of great size with the Titans most likely relates partly to Atlas in his role as reluctant, but important, benefactor to mankind, and to Titans like [Oceanus][22] and [Tethys][23], who, by their very nature, are titanic indeed.*&#xA;&#xA;*No one who has witnessed the dawn breaking would conceive of &quot;rosy fingered&quot; [Eos][24] as anything but horizon spanning, and even when picturing her in human form, this association would be present. Homer is not being entirely literal when he describes Eos in her chariot riding to Olympus to hearken the day. Homer was a poet first and foremost.*&#xA;&#xA;***The Titans are widely anthropomorphised, but these primal entities are also at once the things they represent, such as oceans, mountains and the dawn.  This parallels the conception of Gaia and Ouranos as literally the earth and sky.***  &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA; &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_logic&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/image?img=Perseus:image:1990.33.0539.lg&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Herakles/Hpix/1991.01.1003.jpeg&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Herakles/Hpix/1990.05.0435.jpeg&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0135%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D44&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D44&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D507&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_(architecture)&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leto&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metis_(mythology)&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epimetheus_(mythology)&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angrbo%C3%B0a&#xA;  [13]: http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/reviews/talk-to-her-20021105&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pallas_(Titan)&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pallas_(Giant)&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhon&#xA;  [17]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D853&#xA;  [18]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D6%3Asection%3D3&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Harryhausen&#xA;  [20]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_the_Titans_(1981_film)&#xA;  [21]: http://clash-of-the-titans.wikia.com/wiki/Greek_Mythology#Kraken&#xA;  [22]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceanus&#xA;  [23]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tethys_(mythology)&#xA;  [24]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eos" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21365" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2753" RevisionGUID="33c180af-3845-4b2f-b834-4fcd4dd1c3a9" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The story appears to be a variant of the [sparagmos][1] of the Orphic Zagreus, with the difference being that Dionysus was in bull-calf form when he was slaughtered. Wikipedia mentions the story ([1][2], [2][3]), referencing this paragraph in Walter Burkert's *Greek Religion*: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Dionysus is an exception. In the cult hymn from Elis he is invoked to come as a bull, &quot;with bull foot raging&quot;. Quite frequently he is portrayed with bull horns, and in Kyzikos he has a tauromorphic cult image. There is also a myth which tells how he was slaughtered as a bull-calf and eaten by the impious creatures of old, the Titans. In the Classical period, however, this myth is suppressed and kept secret since it is scarcely compatible with the public image of the divine.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Burkert, Walter, Greek Religion, 1985 pp. 64&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Unfortunately, this is all I could find about it. &#xA;&#xA;Do we know of a fuller version, one that would hopefully explain why Dionysus was in bull-calf form? Was it perhaps part of his punishment, or event an attempt to lessen his suffering? If a fuller version does not exist, do we at least know how old the story is?&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreus#The_sparagmos&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_bull#Greece&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus#Bull.2C_serpent_and_phallus&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21366" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2745" RevisionGUID="09d66048-415c-4cc6-a2ac-38fee024364c" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In Book IV of his *Commentaries on the Gallic War*, Julius Caesar tells us all Gauls claimed descent from Dis Pater: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; 18\. All the Gauls assert that they are descended from the god Dis, and say that this tradition has been handed down by the Druids. For that reason they compute the divisions of every season, not by the number of days, but of nights; they keep birthdays and the beginnings of months and years in such an order that the day follows the night. Among the other usages of their life, they differ in this from almost all other nations, that they do not permit their children to approach them openly until they are grown up so as to be able to bear the service of war; and they regard it as indecorous for a son of boyish age to stand in public in the presence of his father. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Gaius Julius Caesar. *Commentaries on the Gallic War*. Translated by W.A. McDevitte and W.S. Bohn.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;I'm assuming this is an instance of *interpretatio Romana*, and the Gauls actually claimed descent from a chthonic Celtic god (or gods?) and not from the Roman god of the underworld. Do we know which Celtic god this might be?&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21367" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2709" RevisionGUID="63e3484c-f965-4328-9409-10454ed4771f" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="I could not find a single source mentioning that eating the golden apples of the Hesperides would grant immortality. I'd expect at least one of the mortal visitors to the garden to try and take a bite if that was the case. &#xA;&#xA;I widened the parameters a bit and looked for references to [ambrosia][1], the actual immortality granting mechanism of Greek mythology. This is the single mention I found: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; And to the apple-bearing strand of those minstrels in the west then would come, where ocean's lord no more to sailors grants passage o'er the deep dark main, finding there the heaven's holy bound, upheld by Atlas, where water from ambrosial founts wells up beside the couch of Zeus inside his halls, and holy earth, the bounteous mother, causes joy to spring in heavenly breasts. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Euripides, Hippolytus. Translated by E. P. Coleridge&lt;/sub&gt; &#xA;&#xA;The detail of the ambrosia flowing streams in the garden does not appear to be significant to the story, as, again, none of the mortal visitors tries to take advantage of it.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrosia" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21368" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2704" RevisionGUID="bd9756ee-3560-4b2b-ac4e-e4455c762243" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="# A [quadriga][1]&#xA;&#xA;*Pseudo-Hyginus, Astronomica 2. 13 (trans. Grant) (Roman mythographer C2nd A.D.) :*&#xA;Sol [was the] first among the gods made use of the **quadriga** [4 horsed chariot].&quot;&#xA;&#xA;[Wikipedia][2]&#xA;&#xA;&gt;A quadriga (Latin quadri-, four, and iugum, yoke) is a car or chariot drawn by four horses abreast (the Roman Empire's equivalent of Ancient Greek tethrippon):&#xA;&#xA;and you see in this image, it is most definitely a chariot.&#xA;&#xA;[![quadriga][3]][3]&#xA;&#xA;**Ok, it was a chariot. Where's all that light and heat coming from?**&#xA;&#xA;He seems to have some sort of diadem, helmet, or whatever. &#xA;&#xA;&gt;*Valerius Flaccus, Argonautica 4. 90 ff (trans. Mozley) (Roman epic C1st A.D.) :*  &#xA;&gt;&quot;Sol [Helios the Sun] puts on his diadem of **myriad** rays and the corselet woven of twelve stars [the zodiac constellations] and bound by the belt which athwart the rain-clouds shows for men its many hued bow.&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;*Nonnus, Dionysiaca 38. 90 ff (trans. Rouse) (Greek epic C5th A.D.)* :  &#xA;&quot;He [Helios] placed the **golden helmet [of the Sun]** on Phaethon's head and crowned him with his own fire, winding the seven rays like strings upon his hair, and put the white kilt girdlewise round him over his loins; he clothed him in his own fiery robe and laced his foot into the purple boot, and gave his chariot to his son.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;You can also see the diadem in the mosaic.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Helios.html#Chariot&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadriga&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/TPRAt.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21369" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2697" RevisionGUID="9c298e3c-df97-47a4-9505-89fd4b2d52e7" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="A [danake/obol][1] it seems to [be][2]&#xA;&#xA;&gt;*Suidas s.v. Akherousia :* &lt;br&gt; &#xA;&gt;&quot;Akherousia (Acherusia) : A lake in Haides, which the dying cross over, giving to the ferryman [Kharon (Charon)] the coin which is called a **danake**.&quot; (emphasis mine)&#xA;&#xA;And&#xA;&#xA;&gt;*Callimachus, Hecale Fragment 31 (from Etymologicum Graecum s.v. Danakes) :* &lt;br&gt;&#xA;&gt;&quot;**Danakes** (Danaces) : a barbarous coin more than an obol, which used to be put in the mouth of the dead.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;Danake also can mean the silver coin of the Persian empire, so this could be the danake of the sources.&#xA;&#xA;[![danake][3]][3]&#xA;&#xA;Other choice, the Greek Obol.&#xA;&#xA;&gt;**Aristophanes, Frogs 180 ff (trans. O'Neill) (Greek comedy C5th to 4th B.C.) :**  &#xA;&gt;Herakles : An ancient mariner [Kharon (Charon)] will row you over in a wee boat, so big. The fare's two obols.  &#xA;Dionysos : Fie! The power two obols have, the whole world through! How came they thither!&#xA;&#xA;[![obol][4]][4]&#xA;&#xA;There are some websites that may imply any old silver coin, but I could find any sources on that.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danake&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Kharon.html&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/UXRY1.jpg&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/iilA9.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21370" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2665" RevisionGUID="93427787-8bac-40c0-beb8-2d51a96557b0" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="This quote, from Giuseppe Ricciotti's [*The Age of Martyrs: Christianity from Diocletian (284) to Constantine (337)*][1], appears to answer many of my questions simultaneously:&#xA;&#xA;&gt;27. …the whole of polytheistic teaching [of the Romans] was being transformed. Already some fifty years before Diocletian [*c.* 284], a kind of hierarchical confederation had unconsciously been made which collected the innumerable deities in one list and put them all under one supreme god. People were asking what all these gods and goddesses, so various and often so contradictory, did really add up to? Were they a great crowd of deities who ruled the universe, each one independent of the other? Or was there perhaps a *quid unum* which was common to all of them? If there was, then maybe they could all be reduced to such an all-embracing supreme principle? Such questions did not really lead to monotheism. Philosophers sought to fit all these deities into a system which was reasonable, compact, and harmonious. They were trying to build a solid pyramid with one apex only.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;…&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;28. There were many who received this solution gratefully, and added proof and example from nature itself. It was sufficient to raise the eyes to the sky and to consider the function of the sun in the material world. Did it not animate everything?— Was it not the great giver of light and life? Other founts of life and energy were to be found in nature, but these were all derived from the supreme source of the sun without which everything would fall into inertia, into darkness and death. These lesser sources were subordinate to the highest source and acted as so many mirrors reflecting more or less faithfully the greatest light and did not differ from it substantially.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The same thing was true, they said, in the world of the gods. There were many gods and goddesses, but they were all partial reflections of the highest god Sol and whatever could be predicated of them could in the ultimate analysis also be predicated of Sol.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The Emperor Aurelian had been an enthusiastic supporter of the cult of Sol. The son of a priestess of Sol, he had constructed in Rome, in 274, a sumptuous temple to *Deus Sol dominus imperii Romani*, uniting in this god the different sun gods of the Greeks and the Orientals (Helios, Baal) and placing them in the official Roman pantheon. He himself, as the emperor, was the representative of this god with the title *Deus et Dominus* and was shown on coins in the act of receiving a globe from Sol, to indicate his world-wide rule.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;This linking up of the Emperor with the sun-god— often identified or confused with Apollo— went on for a long time; even Diocletian, when he killed Aper, called the god Sol as a witness of his own innocence (par. 2). In doing so he did not deny the Roman gods headed by Jupiter. Jupiter seemed more suited to political affairs and Diocletian himself later chose the name of Jupiter (par. 5), whereas the judicial business of the condemnation of Aper was better suited to Sol, the source of all light. The two gods, in any case, were very much alike and the greatest star in nature corresponded with the greatest god in the Roman pantheon.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://isidore.co/calibre/browse/book/6277" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21371" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2619" RevisionGUID="9c36502d-eef4-4781-badc-26a55ef7709c" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Understanding the ancient world is quite a job, just remark that: Greeks and Romans are the easiest to understand when we start to watch the other civilizations (Egyptians, Mesopotamians, Persians) we are definitely in alien territory, so keep that in mind.&#xA;&#xA;The Greeks were naming themselves &quot;Hellen&quot; and those who were not speaking Greek &quot;Barbarians&quot;, so yes, Persians were barbarians and Egyptians were barbarians. This is something you find in Egypt, &quot;the world&quot; and the rest of the world. Persians were making a huge difference between Persians  / Medes and other civilization. Sumerians were calling themselves &quot;the black people&quot;, etc.&#xA;&#xA;Herodotus 2.50&#xA;-------------&#xA;The good old Herodotus in chapter 2.50 of the History tells us about the Egyptian origin of the Greek gods, this passage has to be cited completely:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; σχεδὸν δὲ καὶ πάντων τὰ οὐνόματα τῶν θεῶν ἐξ Αἰγύπτου ἐλήλυθε ἐς τὴν&#xA;Ἑλλάδα. διότι μὲν γὰρ ἐκ τῶν βαρβάρων ἥκει, πυνθανόμενος οὕτω εὑρίσκω ἐόν· δοκέω δ᾽ ὦν μάλιστα ἀπ᾽ Αἰγύπτου ἀπῖχθαι. ὅτι γὰρ δὴ μὴ Ποσειδέωνος καὶ Διοσκούρων, ὡς καὶ πρότερόν μοι ταῦτα εἴρηται, καὶ Ἥρης καὶ Ἱστίης καὶ Θέμιος καὶ Χαρίτων καὶ Νηρηίδων, τῶν ἄλλων θεῶν Αἰγυπτίοισι αἰεί κοτε τὰ οὐνόματα ἐστὶ ἐν τῇ χώρῃ. λέγω δὲ τὰ λέγουσι αὐτοὶ Αἰγύπτιοι. τῶν δὲ οὔ φασι θεῶν γινώσκειν τὰ οὐνόματα, οὗτοι δέ μοι δοκέουσι ὑπὸ Πελασγῶν ὀνομασθῆναι, πλὴν Ποσειδέωνος· τοῦτον δὲ τὸν θεὸν παρὰ Λιβύων ἐπύθοντο· οὐδαμοὶ γὰρ ἀπ᾽ ἀρχῆς Ποσειδέωνος οὔνομα ἔκτηνται εἰ μὴ Λίβυες καὶ τιμῶσι τὸν θεὸν τοῦτον αἰεί. νομίζουσι δ᾽ ὦν Αἰγύπτιοι οὐδ᾽ ἥρωσι οὐδέν.&#xA;&#xA;English translation:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; By making inquiries, I discovered that the names of the gods came to Hellas from barbarians; and I myself concluded that they derive specifically from Egypt, for [1] the names of the gods have been known in Egypt since the earliest times, except for Poseidon and the Dioskouroi (as I mentioned earlier); as well as Hera, Histia, Themis, the Graces, and the Nereids. Here I am reporting what the Egyptians themselves say, and this leads me to believe that the gods whose names they deny knowing were named by the Pelasgiansb- all except for Poseidon, since this god was introduced to the Hellenes by the Libyans, who alone, among all peoples, have always honored him and have possessed the name of Poseidon from the beginning. And as to the Dioskouroi, the Egyptians do not believe in heroes at all.&#xA;&#xA;Notice also, and this is constant in Herodotus, that almost all gods of other countries are given Greek names, here, for example, the Libyans are related to Poseidon.&#xA;&#xA;Some other points here showing the relation:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; 2.41 Their statue of Isis has a woman's body with horns like a cow's, just as the Hellenes portray Io&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; 2.42 And since the Egyptians call Zeus by the name of Ammon, it seems to me that the Ammonians also received their name from the appellation of this god.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; 2.43 Moreover, the fact is that the Egyptians did not take the &quot;name of Herakles&quot; from the Hellenes, but that the Hellenes (that is, those Hellenes who established the name of Herakles as the son of Amphitryona) took it from the Egyptians; this can be demonstrated by many proofs, especially by the fact that both parents of Herakles, Amphitryon and Alkmene, were of Egyptian descent&#xA;&#xA;NB: Herakles parents are descendants of Perseus which was a descendant of Aigyptos [Αἴγυπτος = Egypt in Greek].&#xA;&#xA;Foreign Greek god&#xA;-----------------&#xA;&#xA;We have a very clear example of a Thracian Goddess (Bendis) included in the Athenian pantheon during the war of the Peloponnese:&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xA;&#xA;Here are Richard Farnell notes of her:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The Thracian Bendis was probably in origin and character the same as the great mother of Phrygia and was worshipped (...) with the same orgiastic rites(...) we also hear of Bendis as the great goddess of Lemnos to whom human victims were offered... The reasons for this association of the greek maidenly goddess with the Bendis-Hekate-Brimo the patroness of savage magic and terrifying superstition may have been some external resemblance of attributes, but also probably, some consanguinity of character. Like Artemis, the Thracian divinity was supposed to ride on bulls; like Artemis, she was a mighty huntress, though her weapon was not the bow, but the spear in each hand.&#xA;&#xA;So basically we see that Bendis was included in the Athenian pantheon of Gods roughly for political reasons namely the alliance with the Thracians. As a Goddess of hunt, dark ritual magic and bulls, Bendis was linked naturally to Hecate - Artemis (note the theme of the moon). Notice that what Plato is talking about, the fact the Athenians were riding with torches in their hands is purely an Artemis ritual.&#xA;&#xA;You can read more on that [here][1] where I gave a more complete historical account.&#xA;&#xA;External mythological elements&#xA;------------------------------&#xA;&#xA;I can also add that Greeks did happily borrow elements in other mythologies, especially in Mesopotamia.  &#xA;&#xA;Here is, for example, Odysseus killing the Cyclops, I meant Nergal killing Igidalu or Igidaru:  &#xA;&#xA;[![https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSTEQcgA_i_A6BsBgdcuYoz22fEjcbl_QMOE7Unfxraglfkow68iQ][3]][3]&#xA;&#xA;The borrowing of the Greeks there is quite extensive... Here is, for example, the start of the Hittite song of Kummarbi, that you can parallel with Hesiod's Theogony:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; For a mere nine years Alalu was king in heaven. In the ninth year, Anu gave battle against Alalu and he defeated Alalu. He (Alalu) fled before him and went down to the Dark Earth. Down he went to the Dark Earth, and Anu took his seat on his throne. Anu was sitting on his throne, and weighty Kumarbi was giving him drink. (Kumarbi) was bowing down at his feet and placing in his hand the drinking cups.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; For a mere nine years Anu remained king in heaven. In the ninth year, Anu gave battle against Kumarbi. Kumarbi, Alalu's offspring, gave battle against Anu. Anu can no longer withstand Kumarbi's eyes. Anu wriggled loose from his (Kumarbi's) hands and fled. He set out for the sky. (But) Kumarbi rushed after him, seized Anu by the feet/legs, and dragged him down from the sky.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; (Kumarbi) bit his (Anu's) loins, and his &quot;manhood&quot; united with Kumarbi's insides like bronze (results from the union of copper and tin). When Kumarbi had swallowed the &quot;manhood&quot; of Anu, he rejoiced and laughed out loud.&#xA;&#xA;Ceremony over the Hellespont&#xA;----------------------------&#xA;&#xA;This is a ceremony we find in Herodotus VII-54, this ceremony is done by the Achaemenid king Xerxes:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Then, as the sun was rising, Xerxes poured a libation from a golden cup into the sea as he faced the sun and prayed that nothing unexpected would happen to stop him from subjugating Europe before he reached the very ends of that land. After his prayer, he threw the libation cup into the Hellespont, along with a golden mixing bowl and a Persian sword, which they call an akinakes.&#xA;&#xA;This is now the ceremony described by Arrian in his Anabasis (VI-19); at the mouth of the Indus Alexander the Great is doing this ceremony:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Then he sacrificed bulls to Poseidon, and cast them into the sea, and after the sacrifice poured a libation and cast into the sea the cup made of gold and golden bowls as thankofferings, praying that Poseidon would safely convoy the naval force he intended to dispatch with Nearchus towards the Persian Gulf.&#xA;&#xA;Apart from the minor differences (the presence of a bull and Poseidon specifically named), the ceremony is exactly the same. They both filled a golden cup, pray and threw the whole content of the cup into the &quot;sea&quot;... Alexander being Greek and Xerxes Persian something is weird.&#xA;&#xA;Notice more amusingly that Alexander will do this over the Hellespont (I.11):&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Alexander sacrificed a bull to Poseidon and the Nereids in the midst of the Hellespont strait, and pour[ed] into the sea a drink offering from a golden bowl.&#xA;&#xA;Again same exact ceremony, which tickles to believe Xerxes is doing a Greek ceremony at the Persian sauce. Xerxes is turning toward the sun (basically Ahura-Mazda, the Persian god) during the ceremony.&#xA;&#xA;We can find a clear explanation in Herodotus VII-54:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Having taken complete possession of Athens, Xerxes now sent off a mounted messenger to Artabanos to announce his present success, and the day after sending the messenger, he summoned the exiles from Athens who had accompanied him and ordered them to climb to the Acropolis and sacrifice according to their tradition.&#xA;&#xA;Pretty obviously in Xerxes army there was Greeks (don't mention that to Zak Snyder pretty please) and here obviously he rewarded them by having them performing a Greek ceremony inside the Acropolis. Which lead to believe when we compare Xerxes ceremony and Alexander ceremony that Xerxes ceremony over the Hellespont was Greek, not Persian (Greek sauce Persian for the obvious presence of Ahura-Mazda).&#xA;&#xA;We can confirm that when we see Cyrus the Great (Cyrus -&gt; Cambyses -&gt; Darius -&gt; Xerxes) restoring the ceremony after conquering Babylon, Cambyses respecting the Gods of Egypt (don't read Herodotus there read the Egyptians).&#xA;&#xA;Evolution of Greek myths&#xA;------------------------&#xA;&#xA;Did the Greek mythology evolved through time? Indeed, I invite you to read my fairly detailed description of Medusa's evolution from [Homeric time up to Ray Harryhausen][4].&#xA;&#xA;Small conclusion&#xA;----------------&#xA;&#xA;Does every of that mean that the Antique world is open-minded and the Christians world made of intolerants? That would be naive (very). One has to see that:&#xA;&#xA; - The Antique civilizations communicated without a doubt, we find tracks of Egyptian stories in India.&#xA; - Most of the so-called openness in term of religion is hidden by the fact almost every time it is open for political reasons. That is well illustrated by Xerxes Greek ceremony, Cyrus &quot;restoring&quot; the old Babylonian religion, the goddess Bendis suddenly entering the Athenian pantheon. One can illustrate the drawback here. Herodotus mentions that Cyrus' son, Cambyses is &quot;mad&quot; while his other Smerdis is replaced by a &quot;false copy&quot;. A close examination of Egyptian source makes clear that Cambyses followed the general &quot;Achaemenid trend&quot; of keeping the local religion. And all the Smerdis affair is highly smelly. So it seems Darius probably usurped the throne and this is the true origin of this &quot;degenerated Cyrus' sons&quot;.&#xA;&#xA;Note also that when we are speaking of the ancient world we are speaking about an incredibly small amount of people. 10/15% among the Greeks was free people. But now let's discuss the rest, made of the women, the slaves, the Lacedaemonians helots, the 2nd/3rd/4th sons (notice that this only the first male heir persisted during the whole Middle Age and the Renaissance), etc. Those had no right at all. When you were part of the 10/15% life was awesome, when not... That is where you have to moderate seriously the so-called openness you can find. It is generally fairly restricted to highly political reasons. When there were no political reasons, Greeks/Mesopotamians/Egyptians/Persians are infamous to slaughter every man, enslave every woman and burn down every local cult temples. And by the way, that is not the question here, but Christians have shown high openness as well for the same political reasons.&#xA;&#xA;Bibliography&#xA;------------&#xA;[The Landmark Herodotus][5] probably the best edition in any language so far of the Histories&lt;BR&gt;&#xA;[The cult of the Greek States][6] Richard Farnell, there are several volumes!&lt;BR&gt;&#xA;[Hittite myths][7] by Harry Hoffner, the texts are difficult to read due to the bad state of the Hittite tablets, I cleaned up the text&lt;BR&gt;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2496/are-artemis-and-bendis-the-same/2497#2497&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/EdKWB.jpg&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/qJNKe.jpg&#xA;  [4]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1817/could-you-look-at-medusas-head-through-a-distorted-surface/1830#1830&#xA;  [5]: https://www.amazon.com/Landmark-Herodotus-Histories-Robert-Strassler/dp/1400031141&#xA;  [6]: https://www.amazon.fr/Cults-States-Farnell-Richard-1856-1934/dp/1314476645/ref=sr_1_5?s=english-books&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1521234006&amp;sr=1-5&amp;dpID=51kV8LXvXHL&amp;preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&amp;dpSrc=srch&#xA;  [7]: https://www.amazon.com/Hittite-Myths-Second-Harry-Hoffner/dp/0788504886" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21372" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2554" RevisionGUID="d79bfafb-85b1-4e31-9772-7acffa037792" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="**This is just to supplement @HDE 226868 's [excellent answer][1]:**  &#xA;&#xA;Aristotle, quoting Hesiod, notes the implication that Love (attraction) must be the prime force of creation:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; And Hesiod says, “ First of all things was Chaos made, and then/Broad-bosomed Earth . . ./And Love, the foremost of immortal beings,” thus implying that there must be in the world some cause to move things and combine them.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Hesiod... assumed Love or Desire as a first principle in things.&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Aristot. Met. 1.984b](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0052%3Abook%3D1%3Asection%3D984b)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Aristotle uses literally calls love *([erota](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29%2Frws&amp;la=greek&amp;can=e%29%2Frws0))* and desire *([epithumian](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29piqu_m-i%2Fa&amp;la=greek&amp;can=e%29piqu_m-i%2Fa0))* the origin *([arkein](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29rxh%2F&amp;la=greek&amp;can=a%29rxh%2F0))* of all things *([ouseen](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ou%29%3Dsin&amp;la=greek&amp;can=ou%29%3Dsin1&amp;prior=toi=s&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0051:book=1:section=984b&amp;i=2))*.&#xA;&#xA;However, this is a philosophical conception of myth, and may be related to the Taoist idea that &quot;out of two came all the myriad things&quot;, which is also a description of the symbolic system of the I-Ching.&#xA;&#xA;The implication is that there must be two primordial things, such as Gaia&#xA;and Tartarus, as HDE notes, although the type of generative interaction ([combinatorial][2]) may be more easily conceptualized in the subsequent unions, and offspring, of Gaia and Ouranos.  &#xA;&#xA;&#xA; &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/1241/2892&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combinatorics" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21373" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2545" RevisionGUID="2b7e6283-fd0b-416b-8ea6-09eba5b12d5b" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="&lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris#Early_mythology&quot;&gt;Osiris&lt;/a&gt; is killed in several Egyptian myths, coming back to life for varying lengths of time in some of them. &#xA;&#xA;&gt;The myth described Osiris as having been killed by his brother Set, who wanted Osiris' throne. Isis joined the fragmented pieces of Osiris, but the only body part missing was the phallus. Isis fashioned a golden phallus, and briefly brought Osiris back to life by use of a spell that she learned from her father. This spell gave her time to become pregnant by Osiris before he again died. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Plutarch recounts one version of the myth in which Set (Osiris' brother), along with the Queen of Ethiopia, conspired with 72 accomplices to plot the assassination of Osiris.[19] Set fooled Osiris into getting into a box, which Set then shut, sealed with lead, and threw into the Nile. Osiris' wife, Isis, searched for his remains until she finally found him embedded in a tamarisk tree trunk, which was holding up the roof of a palace in Byblos on the Phoenician coast. She managed to remove the coffin and open it, but Osiris was already dead.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;In one version of the myth, she used a spell learned from her father and brought him back to life so he could impregnate her. Afterwards he died again and she hid his body in the desert. Months later, she gave birth to Horus. While she raised Horus, Set was hunting one night and came across the body of Osiris. Enraged, he tore the body into fourteen pieces and scattered them throughout the land. Isis gathered up all the parts of the body, except the penis (which had been eaten by a fish, the medjed) and bandaged them together for a proper burial. The gods were impressed by the devotion of Isis and resurrected Osiris as the god of the underworld. Because of his death and resurrection, Osiris was associated with the flooding and retreating of the Nile and thus with the crops along the Nile valley.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;Diodorus Siculus gives another version of the myth in which Osiris was described as an ancient king who taught the Egyptians the arts of civilization, including agriculture, then travelled the world with his sister Isis, the satyrs, and the nine muses, before finally returning to Egypt. Osiris was then murdered by his evil brother Typhon, who was identified with Set. Typhon divided the body into twenty-six pieces, which he distributed amongst his fellow conspirators in order to implicate them in the murder. Isis and Hercules (Horus) avenged the death of Osiris and slew Typhon. Isis recovered all the parts of Osiris' body, except the phallus, and secretly buried them. She made replicas of them and distributed them to several locations, which then became centres of Osiris worship." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21374" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2506" RevisionGUID="45ccc257-aef6-4281-bc71-9cfe58d1cf7c" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Theoi's thing, the summary, says that it's a goddess&#xA;&#xA;&gt;KHAOS (Chaos) was the first of the primordial gods (protogenoi) to emerge at the dawn of creation. **She** was followed in quick succession by Gaia (Gaea, Earth), Tartaros (the Pit Below) and Eros (Procreation).&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;Khaos was the lower atmosphere which surrounds the earth--both the invisible air and the gloom of fog and mist. The word khaos means &quot;gap&quot; or &quot;chasm&quot; being the space between heaven and earth. Khaos was the mother and grandmother of the other misty essences--Erebos (the mists of netherworld darkness), Aither (the ethereal mists of heaven), Nyx (the night) and Hemera (the day), as well as the numerous emotion-driving Daimones (Spirits) which haunted it. She was also a **goddess** of fate like her daughter Nyx and grand-daughters the Moirai (Moirae).&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;As the **goddess** of the air Khaos was also the mother of birds, just as Gaia (the Earth) was the mother of land animals, and Thalassa (the Sea) was the mother of fish.&#xA;&#xA;A primary source:&#xA;&#xA;&gt;*Aristophanes, Birds 685 ff (trans. O'Neill) (Greek comedy C5th to 4th B.C.) :*  &#xA;&quot;At the beginning there was only Khaos (Chaos, the Chasm) [Air], Nyx (Night), dark Erebos (Darkness), and deep Tartaros (the Pit). Ge (Gaea, Earth), Aer (Air) [Aither] and Ouranos (Uranus, Heaven) had no existence. Firstly, black-winged Nyx (Night) laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebos (Darkness), and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros (Desire) with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. **He mated [or fertilised]** in deep Tartaros (the Pit) **with dark Khaos** (Chaos, the Chasm) [Air], winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race [the birds], which was the first to see the light.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;Being able to be fertilized generally means you're a girl. Or something's wrong." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21375" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2495" RevisionGUID="a31fa4a2-2ffa-4edb-96cc-1e34eec7012e" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="It's [Pausanias 9.12.1&amp;2][1] (the section on Boetia):&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The Thebans in ancient days used to sacrifice bulls to Apollo of the Ashes. Once when the festival was being held, the hour of the sacrifice was near but those sent to fetch the bull had not arrived. And so, as a wagon happened to be near by, they sacrificed to the god one of the oxen, and ever since it has been the custom to sacrifice working oxen. The following story also is current among the Thebans. As Cadmus was leaving Delphi by the road to Phocis, a cow, it is said, guided him on his way. This cow was one bought from the herdsmen of Pelagon, and on each of her sides was a white mark like the orb of a full moon.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Now the oracle of the god had said that Cadmus and the host with him were to make their dwelling where the cow was going to sink down in weariness. So this is one of the places that they point out. Here there is in the open an altar and an image of Athena, said to have been dedicated by Cadmus. Those who think that the Cadmus who came to the Theban land was an Egyptian, and not a Phoenician, have their opinion contradicted by the name of this Athena, because she is called by the Phoenician name of Onga, and not by the Egyptian name of Sais.&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Perseus][1]&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xA;&#xA;Interestingly, this section can be found on Theoi in the  W.H.S. Jones translation, although it was [Robert Graves][2]' [The Greek Myths][3] that guided me to the reference per his comprehensive and highly useful index.   &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0160%3Abook%3D9%3Achapter%3D12%3Asection%3D1&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Graves#Literary_career&#xA;  [3]: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/820461.The_Greek_Myths" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21376" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2481" RevisionGUID="746ab8f4-268a-4062-a89d-5489bcc87abf" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="[Well, they were forced into Tartarus.][1]&#xA;&#xA;&gt;And amongst the foremost Kottos (Cottus) and Briareos (Briareus) and Gyes insatiate for war raised fierce fighting : three hundred rocks, one upon another, **they launched from their strong hands and overshadowed the Titanes with their missiles, and buried them beneath the wide-pathed earth, and bound them in bitter chains** when they had conquered them by their strength for all their great spirit, as far beneath the earth to Tartaros . . . There by the counsel of Zeus who drives the clouds the Titan gods are hidden under misty gloom, in a dank place where are the ends of the huge earth. **And they may not go out; for Poseidon fixed gates of bronze upon it**, and a wall runs all round it on every side.There [the Hekatonkheires] Gyes and Kottos and great-souled Obriareus live, trusty warders of Zeus who holds the aegis . . . But when Zeus had driven the Titanes from heaven [then Gaia bore the monstrous giant Typhoeus to oppose Zeus].&quot;&#xA;&#xA;So the hundred hand people scooped up the Titans and buried them in Tartarus, and with the help of a bronze gate, guarded them &lt;s&gt;forever&lt;/s&gt; [until they were released][2].&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&gt;[Theoi][3] says&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &gt;Many human generations later, Zeus released Kronos and his brothers from this prison, and made the old Titan king of the Elysian Islands, home of the blessed dead.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Titanes.html&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1258/why-did-zeus-release-cronos/1259#1259&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanKronos.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21377" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2818" RevisionGUID="ea726989-8204-48e0-b5f2-d555c5943e21" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Nope, they did not get that tasty fruit that would have granted them eternal life:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Now the Lord God said, &quot;Behold man has become like one of us, having the ability of knowing good and evil, and now, lest he stretch forth his hand and take also from the Tree of Life and eat and live forever.&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; And He drove the man out, and He stationed from the east of the Garden of Eden the cherubim and the blade of the revolving sword, to guard the way to the Tree of Life.&#xA;&#xA;Source: [The Book of Genesis][1]&#xA;&#xA;I'm not finding a specific prohibition prior to their knowledge of good and evil, or even a prohibition *per se*, as clearly they have lost God's trust and need to by physically barred from access to the tree of life. &#xA;&#xA;&gt; And the Lord God caused to sprout from the ground every tree pleasant to see and good to eat, and the Tree of Life in the midst of the garden, and the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; And the Lord God commanded man, saying, &quot;Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; But of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat of it, for on the day that you eat thereof, you shall surely die.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;Source: [The Book of Genesis][2]&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8167/jewish/Chapter-3.htm&#xA;  [2]: http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8166/jewish/Chapter-2.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21378" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2474" RevisionGUID="c2417329-e625-4bf9-89d9-d5e91e18b7d7" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The following quote is from the [Wikipedia article on the Twelve Olympians][1]: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Hebe, Helios, Selene, Eos, Eros and Persephone are other important gods and goddesses who are sometimes included in a group of twelve. Eros is often depicted alongside the other twelve, especially his mother Aphrodite, but not usually counted in their number.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Twelve Olympians. (2017, March 13). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 12:05, March 16, 2017, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Twelve_Olympians&amp;oldid=770150180&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Unfortunately, no sources are identified for the claim (which is in fact marked with [citation-needed]). &#xA;&#xA;I am guessing that &quot;group of twelve&quot; does not refer to one of the multiple configurations of the Twelve Olympians. With the exception of Persephone, the other gods mentioned in the quote are minor, and wouldn't typically be considered members of the *Dodekatheon*. &#xA;&#xA;Do we know what groups of twelve the quote may be referring to?&#xA; &#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Olympians#Membership" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21379" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2446" RevisionGUID="5a88cf2d-5c2d-40e2-a53a-ea3974448c4d" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In an attempt to distract Isis from learning his [true name][1], Ra reveals that he takes different forms during the day:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; I am the Creator of living flame. I am Khepera in the morning, Ra at noontide, and Atmu in the evening.&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;&quot;The name of Ra&quot;, *Ancient Egyptian Legends*, by M. A. Murray.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Why did Ra take different forms during the day? How are the Khepera and Atmu forms different than the central one? &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_name" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21380" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2443" RevisionGUID="837f197b-64f6-4b71-8899-282d4336be92" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The story of Bellerephon, as told by Homer in Book VI of the Iliad, may be of interest: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; There is a city in the heart of Argos, pasture land of horses, called Ephyra, where Sisyphus lived, who was the craftiest of all mankind. He was the son of Aeolus, and had a son named Glaucus, who was father to Bellerophon, whom heaven endowed with the most surpassing comeliness and beauty. But Proetus devised his ruin, and being stronger than he, drove him from the land of the Argives, over which Jove had made him ruler. For Antea, wife of Proetus, lusted after him, and would have had him lie with her in secret; but Bellerophon was an honourable man and would not, so she told lies about him to Proteus. 'Proetus,' said she, 'kill Bellerophon or die, for he would have had converse with me against my will.' The king was angered, but shrank from killing Bellerophon, so he sent him to Lycia with lying letters of introduction, written on a folded tablet, and containing much ill against the bearer. He bade Bellerophon show these letters to his father-in-law, to the end that he might thus perish; Bellerophon therefore went to Lycia, and the gods convoyed him safely. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &quot;When he reached the river Xanthus, which is in Lycia, the king received him with all goodwill, feasted him nine days, and killed nine heifers in his honour, but when rosy-fingered morning appeared upon the tenth day, he questioned him and desired to see the letter from his son-in-law Proetus. When he had received the wicked letter he first commanded Bellerophon to kill that savage monster, the Chimaera, who was not a human being, but a goddess, for she had the head of a lion and the tail of a serpent, while her body was that of a goat, and she breathed forth flames of fire; but Bellerophon slew her, for he was guided by signs from heaven. He next fought the far-famed Solymi, and this, he said, was the hardest of all his battles. Thirdly, he killed the Amazons, women who were the peers of men, and as he was returning thence the king devised yet another plan for his destruction; he picked the bravest warriors in all Lycia, and placed them in ambuscade, but not a man ever came back, for Bellerophon killed every one of them. Then the king knew that he must be the valiant offspring of a god, so he kept him in Lycia, gave him his daughter in marriage, and made him of equal honour in the kingdom with himself; and the Lycians gave him a piece of land, the best in all the country, fair with vineyards and tilled fields, to have and to hold. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;The Iliad, by Homer. Translated by Samuel Butler.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;It could be argued that the &quot;wicked letter&quot; was simply sealed and not encoded. However, Homer uses &quot;σήματα λυγρά&quot;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; to describe it, a phrase that points to pictorial tokens and perhaps allows us to interpret the letter as an encrypted one. &#xA;&#xA;Interestingly, this story is the only mention of writing in the Iliad, and the source of the phrase &quot;bellerophonic letter&quot;.  &#xA;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; see http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=sh%2Fmata&amp;la=greek&amp;can=sh%2Fmata0&amp;prior=ge#lexicon&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21381" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2418" RevisionGUID="e38b3413-55a7-438a-bbb4-8f280a1f9bb6" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="According to Hesiod, Zeus appointed Styx, the personification of the river, to be &quot;the great oath of the gods&quot; as a reward for the goddess siding with him in the Titanomachy: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; And Styx the daughter of Ocean was joined to Pallas and bore Zelus (Emulation) and trim-ankled Nike (Victory) in the house. Also she brought forth Cratos (Strength) and Bia (Force), wonderful children. These have no house apart from Zeus, nor any dwelling nor path except that wherein God leads them, but they dwell always with Zeus the loud-thunderer. For so did Styx the deathless daughter of Ocean plan on that day when the Olympian Lightning god called all the deathless gods to great Olympus, and said that whosoever of the gods would fight with him against the Titans, he would not cast him out from his rights, but each should have the office which he had before amongst the deathless gods. And he declared that he who was without office or right under Cronos, should be raised to both office and rights as is just. So deathless Styx came first to Olympus with her children through the wit of her dear father. And Zeus honored her, and gave her very great gifts, for he appointed her to be the great oath of the gods, and her children to live with him always. And as he promised, so he performed fully unto them all. But he himself mightily reigns and rules.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Hesiod. The Homeric Hymns and Homerica with an English Translation by Hugh G. Evelyn-White. Theogony. Cambridge, MA.,Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1914. - http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0020.tlg001.perseus-eng1:371-403&lt;/sub&gt; &#xA;&#xA;Essentially then, the goddess' (and thus the river's) power comes directly from Zeus himself.&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21382" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2405" RevisionGUID="39d0dede-edb0-4e99-8208-025fb6d8ca97" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="I was looking for information on [bear cults][1] when I stumbled upon this little gem: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; In Native American folklore there are many tales about bears. It is highly respected as the 'keeper of dreams', and 'the keeper of medicine', and is one of the most powerful totems. (Bears hibernate, giving them associations with the world of dreams.)&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[&quot;Mythology And Folklore Of The Bear | Trees For Life&quot;][2]. Treesforlife.org.uk. N.p., 2017. Web. 2 Mar. 2017.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Why are bears thought of as &quot;keepers of dreams&quot;? How does their hibernation connect them with the world of dreams?&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear_worship&#xA;  [2]: http://treesforlife.org.uk/forest/mythology-folklore/bear/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21383" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2400" RevisionGUID="836a53a3-ea99-43f4-ab2d-de39462b1c47" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="According to Wikipedia, the Sami thunder god Horagalles was depicted with a nail or spike on the head: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Idols of Horagalles are made of wood and have a nail or spike and a piece of flint in the head. He has a hammer called Wetschera, Aijeke Wetschera, or Ajeke veċċera, &quot;grandfather's hammer.&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Horagalles. (2016, October 3). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 09:02, February 28, 2017, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Horagalles&amp;oldid=742335950&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Why is that? What is the story of this unique feature?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21384" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2397" RevisionGUID="1c17e9d5-f963-4968-a64d-17df33553feb" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Ps.-Apollodorus implies that there is only one riddle, which she learned from the Muses. From [Theoi](http://www.theoi.com/Ther/Sphinx.html):&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 3. 52 - 55 (trans. Aldrich) (Greek mythographer C2nd A.D.) :&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &quot;While he [Kreon (Creon)] was king, quite a scourge held Thebes in suppression, for Hera sent upon them the Sphinx, whose parents were Ekhidna (Echidna) and Typhon. She had a woman's face, the breast, feet, and tail of a lion, and bird wings. She had learned a riddle form the Mousai (Muses), and now sat on Mount Phikion (Phicium) where she kept challenging the Thebans with it. The riddle was: what is it that has one voice, and is four-footed and two-footed and three-footed?&#xA;&#xA;Check the link for more sources, too. Only Statius has &quot;riddles&quot; instead of &quot;riddle,&quot; but as Oedipus only solved one, it's probably a poetic plural intended (i.e. plural in form to fit the meter of the poem, but singular in meaning)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21385" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2395" RevisionGUID="6d55b11d-977b-4974-8198-984f7cd7a70c" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Absolutely. Hesiod is quite deep, and as Aristotle's use of Hesiod's Eros demonstrates, profound meaning may be found hidden in the work.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; And Hesiod says, “ First of all things was Chaos made, and then/Broad-bosomed Earth . . ./And Love, the foremost of immortal beings,” thus implying that there must be in the world some cause to move things and combine them.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Hesiod... assumed Love or Desire as a first principle in things.&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Source: [Aristot. Met. 1.984b](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0052%3Abook%3D1%3Asection%3D984b) | A brief commentary may be found [here.](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2379/2892)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xA;&#xA; - Hesiod has two accounts of the Pandora story, one which mentions a jar (i.e. box) and one that has no mention of any vessel save Pandora herself.  See [&quot;Good and Evil in the Pandora Story&quot;](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2258/2892)&#xA;&#xA; - The lid of the jar is noted by Hesiod to be an &quot;[unbreakable](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29%2Frrhktos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=a%29%2Frrhktos0)&quot; &quot;[home](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=do%2Fmos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=do%2Fmos0#Perseus:text:1999.04.0058:entry=do/mos-contents)&quot;.&#xA;&#xA; - The verb [ἔμιμνε](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29%2Fmimne&amp;la=greek#lexicon), which is used to connote the status of Hope under the lid, is and [imperfect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_verbs#Imperfect_tense) verb. Imperfect verbs are generally regarded as &quot;open ended&quot; as in continual, which connotes a sense of eternality in the Hesiod passage.  *[Compare to the [aorist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_verbs#Aorist_tense) or [pluperfect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_verbs#Pluperfect_tense) which connote completed actions.]* The choice of imperfect, in and of itself, is hopeful.  &quot;Remained&quot;, as it is often translated, might be more properly &quot;has remained&quot; or even &quot;remains&quot;.&#xA;&#xA;The [pithou](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=pi%2Fqos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=pi%2Fqos0#lexicon) (jar) can be taken as a methphor for the body, made from similar material as Pandora herself (literally &quot;[earth](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=gai%3Dan&amp;la=greek&amp;can=gai%3Dan0&amp;prior=ta/xista&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0131:card=59&amp;i=1)&quot; and &quot;[water](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=u%28%2Fdei&amp;la=greek&amp;can=u%28%2Fdei0&amp;prior=gai=an&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0131:card=59&amp;i=1)&quot; in Hesiod, but generally translated as clay.)&#xA;&#xA;The pithou of jar Hesiod references are made from clay, and yet Hesiod says this particular vessel, at least the lid, is unbreakable.&#xA;&#xA;Continuing with the body metaphor, the &quot;lid&quot; can be taken to mean the head.&#xA;&#xA;This is further supported in that the evils Hesiod describes, [toil](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=po%2Fnoio&amp;la=greek&amp;can=po%2Fnoio0&amp;prior=xalepoi=o&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0131:card=83&amp;i=1), [illnesss](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=no%2Fsos&amp;la=greek&amp;can=no%2Fsos0), and even [vices](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ka%2Fkh&amp;la=greek&amp;can=ka%2Fkh0#lexicon), can be said to be afflictions of the body.&#xA;&#xA;Hope, by contrast, relates to the mind.&#xA;&#xA;The unbreakable status of the lid can be taken as a metaphor for the eternal component of humans, which is often called the soul.  &#xA;&#xA;Thus the evils of the Pandora's box may destroy the body and bring death, but they cannot destroy the human spirit.  &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21386" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2381" RevisionGUID="b279ffcd-f486-46f4-a0b5-4eb437156b35" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="&gt;*Aeschylus, Eumenides 971 ff :*  &#xA;&gt;&quot;[The Eumenides bless the Athenians with good fortune :] ‘I forbid deadly and untimely fate for men; **grant to lovely maidens life with a husband, you that have the rightful power; you, divine Moirai (Moirae, Fates)**, our sisters by one mother, divinities who distribute justly, who have a share in every home, and whose righteous visitations press heavily at every season, most honored everywhere among the gods!’&quot;  &#xA;[Moirai][1]&#xA;&#xA;They have the power to make women fall for men,&#xA;&#xA;&gt;*Aristophanes, Birds 1720 ff (trans. O'Neill) (Greek comedy C5th to 4th B.C.) :*  &#xA;&quot;Twas in the midst of such [wedding] festivities that the Moirai (Moirae, Fates) formerly united Hera Olympia to the King [Zeus] who governs the gods from the summit of his inaccessible throne.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;and arrange godly marriage.&#xA;&#xA;As @DukeZhou says, Eros was one of the first forces of Love. And probably the strongest.&#xA;&#xA;But, according to Aeschylus, they have the power to give a maiden a husband. &#xA;&#xA;What I view from this, is that Eros is more of the falling in love sorta deal, while the fates are about finding a spouse. Hymen is the wedding type of guy, rather an agent of fate. Hera... I honestly have no idea.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Moirai.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21387" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2379" RevisionGUID="d7e34fa7-6844-4190-bb69-fef2ed3be10c" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="It is interesting that in Chinese lore, a [red thread](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_string_of_fate) was said to connect lovers.  Note that the actual name is the &quot;Red String of Fate&quot;.&#xA;&#xA;The Chinese tradition does not have a direct analogue to the Moirai so far as I know, and there tends to be more emphasis on &quot;fortune&quot; as in bad/good, presided over by the god [Caishen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caishen).  However it is telling that one of the &quot;Four Great Folktales&quot; of China is the *[Weaver Girl and the Cowherd](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Weaver_Girl_and_the_Cowherd)*, which is a love story, and the Red Thread of Destiny is understood in a romantic context, where [Yue Lao](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yue_Lao) serves the function of a god of fate.   &#xA;&#xA;Weaving and fate tends to be intermingled in the West as well, which is why the [Greek fates](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moirai) are female *(weaving was understood as a source of feminine power)*, and a human life was understood to be a string that [Atropos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atropos) would cut when a person's allotted length of time was up. &#xA;&#xA;It was said that [Hymen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hymen_(god)), the Greek god of marriage, could bless or curse a union with his presence or absence at the ceremony. But is Hymen influencing fate, or merely acting as fate's agent?&#xA;&#xA;As you astutely point out, [Eros](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eros), does seem to be able to influence destiny with his arrows.  He makes Psyche fall in love to punish her. &#xA;&#xA;According to Hesiod, Eros, who is sometimes referred to as &quot;both the oldest and the youngest of the gods&quot;, comes into existence *before* the Moirai.&#xA;&#xA;Aristotle, quoting Hesiod, notes the implication that Love (attraction) must be the prime force of creation:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; And Hesiod says, “ First of all things was Chaos made, and then/Broad-bosomed Earth . . ./And Love, the foremost of immortal beings,” thus implying that there must be in the world some cause to move things and combine them.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Hesiod... assumed Love or Desire as a first principle in things.&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Aristot. Met. 1.984b](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0052%3Abook%3D1%3Asection%3D984b)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Aristotle uses literally calls love *([erota](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29%2Frws&amp;la=greek&amp;can=e%29%2Frws0))* and desire *([epithumian](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29piqu_m-i%2Fa&amp;la=greek&amp;can=e%29piqu_m-i%2Fa0))* the origin *([arkein](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29rxh%2F&amp;la=greek&amp;can=a%29rxh%2F0))* of all things *([ouseen](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=ou%29%3Dsin&amp;la=greek&amp;can=ou%29%3Dsin1&amp;prior=toi=s&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0051:book=1:section=984b&amp;i=2))*.&#xA;&#xA;It becomes a philosophical question at this point: Was it Psyche's fate all along to be so punished? Is Eros altering destiny or merely acting as its agent?  If Eros is the prime force behind all creation, is not fate a function of Eros?&#xA;&#xA;&#xA; &#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21388" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2360" RevisionGUID="ba7dd018-46f6-4fd8-ae1c-ff1f1c0c05cf" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="One thing that must be pointed out is that all the Indo-European cultures (Germanic, Celtic, Slavic, Greek, Persian, Vedic...) are the same. They're simply different branches of the same culture/mythology, that originated due to regional separation, as the Indo-Europeans invaded/migrated to different lands and different populations settled in regions isolated from each other. Therefore the appearance of minor differences between these different branches is inevitable, but the main aspects are the same. &#xA;&#xA;One of the first bigger historical civilizations created by the Indo-Europeans was the Vedic civilization in North India. In the Vedic cosmology, Brahma is the main God. He's everything, the universe itself, and the other gods are different manifestations of Brahma, avatars with different traits to be worshipped. The reason for that is the channeling of spiritual energy - in the Vedic texts, it's called Nirgunabrahman, the impersonal, attributeless Absolute, or Parabrahman, the Supreme Absolute.&#xA;&#xA;The Celtic mythology is the one I'm most familiar with, so I can give you a more in depth example: Dagodeus is referred to as the vortex of existence, Trinertá. Dagodeus is depicted as a three faced God, that is the explanation for such a motif as a trinity being so present in Indo-European cultures. Other Indo-European deities such as Brigid are also three faced or have three manifestations/personalities. There are also Indo-European religious symbols such as the triskelion and the swastika that are a vortex always in movement. As you can read in [a post in my blog](http://blackewood.blogspot.com.br/2011/11/trinerta-three-forces.html) I've written years ago:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; ...The universe emerged from a triad, Trinertá, the Three Forces. the three elements, ie, the two opposing forces and their resultant, arising from the first movement in the Immensity supra-causal and non-differentiated Bituimon. This triad is the primary basis for all aspects of the universe. These three basic forces are mentioned in cosmology as a centripetal attraction, a centrifugal force and balance.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The centripetal action, personified by Lugus, the immanent, the Preserver of the universe is called Biwotúts (&quot;existence&quot;), because there is a concentration of energy, a force of agglomeration. On the mental plane, the cohesive force is the tendency that lights up the unit.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The centrifugal action, called Demerá (&quot;dark&quot;), is the force that seeks to prevent the dispersion concentration. This tendency toward disintegration is the symbol of the final dissolution of all existence in Non-Being. It therefore represents a release. This force of annihilation is personified by dits firing, the Destroyer of Worlds, also called Dagodéwos, Good God.&#xA;&gt;&#xA; &gt; The balance of centripetal and centrifugal gives rise to the third trend, the tendency to orbiting, Suimon, which is the source of the activity. She is personified by the Creator, He-Who-Is-Eternal Bitumios...&#xA;&#xA;Myth-wise, the deities in these different cultures can vary, while there may be in one culture in a certain location a deity that personifies the universe, originally it's the main God that is the primordial energy of life (Brahma). In the Greek mythology that would be Zeus, in the Celtic mythology it would be Dagda (or Dagodeus in Gaulish), in the Persian Zoroastrian religion it would be Ahura Mazda, and in the Germanic mythology, Odin certainly. This primordial spirit is the essence of everything that is and ever was." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21389" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2355" RevisionGUID="40027774-c3f9-4a8c-badc-393eb8915a48" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="All in all, it all depends on viewpoints. The writer's, the translator's, and the reader's. There are different and conflicting versions of the story, but [Valmiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valmiki)'s *Ramayana* and the *[Ramacharitmanas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramcharitmanas)* are taken to be the main ones.&#xA;&#xA;There are three main types of versions of Ravan's Death.&#xA;&#xA; 1. In which he wanted to be killed by Ram&#xA; 2. In which the Gods made a plan for him to be killed by Ram&#xA; 3. In which Rama wanted to rescue Sita, and Ravan was a... Uhh... Casualty.&#xA;&#xA;All stories have these, or a combination thereof.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;In version 1, where Ravan wanted to be killed by Ram, there are very few possible reasons I can think of. One would be, that Ram being an avatar of Vishnu, anyone killed by him would go to *[Vaikunth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaikuntha)*, the realm of Vishnu, which is basically heaven to the hundredth power. And talking realistically, I believe this rumor is because all the preachers and so wanted to save Ram from the crime of *Brahma-Hatya-Paap*, the crime of killing a Brahmin, which Ravan, being a son of a son of Brahma, technically is (Even though he performed a special *puja* to get rid of all that *paap*). &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;It is the second version which I think most likely, as there would be several reasons the *[Devas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deva_(Hinduism))* would want Ravan to be killed.&#xA;&#xA; &#xA; &#xA; &#xA; &#xA; &#xA; - Ravan's father had two sons. Himself, a *[rakshas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakshasa)*, and Kuber, a *[yaksha](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaksha)*. Kuber was the treasurer of the *Devas*, and had a mongoose which would spit out jewels every time he opened his mouth. Due to this, Kuber was able to build himself an island city, *entirely out of gold*. It was named [Lanka](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanka). Ravan came and conquered it, because he was jealous with Kuber for having it. So Kuber fled North, where he established *Alanka*, whose name gradually transformed into *Alakapuri* ( Puri means city ). So, Kuber had reason for wanting Ravan dead.&#xA; &#xA; &#xA; &#xA; &#xA; - Ravana had obtained a boon from Brahma, which stated that no deva or asura or [insert name of all creatures and species] could kill or defeat him. It just happened that he did not say anything about Humans or Monkeys, whether out of arrogance, or forgetfulness (try reading out a hundred or two pages of a novel continuously, by memory) I don't remember. Now, characteristically, he started wreaking havoc on all three worlds. So, the average person or deva hated him.&#xA; &#xA; &#xA; &#xA; - Not to mention how many kingdoms he destroyed, and how long he had been destroying them. ( One hears stories of him being cursed in a fight with Ram's great-great-so-on-grandfather.)&#xA; &#xA; - And I can go on.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;The third version, I believe, is pretty self explanatory.&#xA;&#xA;As an additional tidbit pertaining to the third version, I would like to show how Ram respected Ravan for his knowledge.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; LEARNING FROM RAVANA&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Ravana lay on the ground, breathing heavily, waiting for death to come. ‘Quickly,’ said Ram to Lakshman, ‘go to him and seek out his knowledge. He knew a lot.’&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; So Lakshman went to Ravana and towering over him said, ‘I am Lakshman, brother of Ram, who has punished you for the crime of abducting his wife. As victor, he has a right to all that you possess, your knowledge included. If you have any honour, pass it on to him before you die.’&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Ravana simply turned his face away, angering Lakshman, who reported the scene to Ram.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Ram said, ‘Here is a man who grabbed his brother’s house and another man’s wife and you expected him to just give you what you so rudely and authoritatively demanded as your right. You clearly never saw Ravana.’&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Ram then discarded his weapons, walked up to Ravana, sat at his feet, joined his palms and spoke to Ravana in a gentle voice. ‘Noble one, son of Vishrava and Kaikesi, devotee of Shiva, brother of Surpanakha, Vibhishana and Kumbhakarna, father of Indrajit, uncle of Taranisen, friend of Mahiravana, husband of Mandodari, I salute you. I am Ram, who was responsible for mutilating your sister’s body, for which I have been duly punished. I am Ram, whose wife you abducted, for which you have been duly punished. We owe each other no debts. But I seek from you knowledge that you wish to leave behind as your legacy.’&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Like a dying lamp restored to life with a fresh offering of oil, Ravana’s eyes lit up. ‘I realize I never saw you, Ram. I just saw the man who my sister hated, my brothers respected, my queens admired and Sita loved. In seeking knowledge from me, you are hoping that I will finally expand my mind and discover the essence of the Vedas, which has eluded me, even though I know all the hymns and all the rituals. You are the ideal student whose curiosity makes the teacher wiser. I bow to you. Brahma tells us that to receive we have to give but most of us, like Indra, seek to receive without giving. Shiva seeks nothing, so he does not bother with the accounts of giving or receiving, but only Ram, who is Vishnu, receives by simply giving. That is why Sita follows him, not me.’&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Ravana then breathed his last.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Taken from *Sita: An Illustrated Version of the Ramayana* by Devdutt Pattnaik.&#xA;&#xA;Because *having* to kill is different from *wanting* to kill." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21390" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2349" RevisionGUID="5568ab4a-6106-4107-b38e-5fe47e29de9d" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="He uses his chariot to fly, not his hammer though.&#xA;&#xA;&gt;Thor had a chariot to travel across the sky, which was drawn by two giant goats: Tanngniost and Tanngrisnir.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;[source][1]&#xA;&#xA;I've never seen anything of Thor flying with Mjolnir. Doing a quick google search yields the same...&#xA;&#xA;&gt;However, the mythical version doesn't let Thor fly if he twirls it super fast.&#xA;&#xA;[theoddsseyonline][2]&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.ancient.eu/Thor/&#xA;  [2]: https://www.theodysseyonline.com/marvel-vs-myth" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21391" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2337" RevisionGUID="02e8e88a-accb-4659-bc07-d389228a9d63" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In chapter 27 of the Saga of the Völsungs, Brynhild brags of having been in battles with a king of Greeks:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; She answered in heavy mood from her seat, whereas she sat like unto swan on billow, having a sword in her hand and a helm on her head, and being clad in a byrny, &quot;O Gunnar,&quot; she says, &quot;speak not to me of such things unless thou be the first and best of all men; for then shall thou slay those my wooers, if thou hast heart thereto; I have been in battles with the king of the Greeks, and weapons were stained with red blood, and for such things still I yearn.&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;&quot;Chapter 20&quot;, *The Story of the Volsungs*, translated by William Morris and Eirikr Magnusson&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Is this Brynhild's way of saying she has battled legendary opponents in far away lands, or could it be a more specific reference? Given that Brynhild's brother King Atli is identified with Attila the Hun, could this perhaps be a reference to Attila's campaigns against the Eastern Roman Empire?&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21392" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2325" RevisionGUID="6d5c4074-13f1-439b-b10f-b4a691adc5fa" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="When Sigurd wakes up Brynhild, we learn that her imprisonment was the result of her defiance to Odin's command:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Then Brynhild speaks again and says, &quot;Two kings fought, one hight Helm Gunnar, an old man, and the greatest of warriors, and Odin had promised the victory unto him; but his foe was Agnar, or Audi's brother, and so I smote down Helm Gunnar in the fight; and Odin, in vengeance for that deed, stuck the sleep-thorn into me, and said that I should never again have the victory, but should be given away in marriage; but there against I vowed a vow, that never would I wed one who knew the name of fear.&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Chapter 20, The Story of the Volsungs, translated by William Morris and Eirikr Magnusson&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Why would Brynhild favour Agnar? Wasn't she, as a valkyrie, bound to Odin's will? Is this act of disobedience unique among the valkyries?  &#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21393" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2457" RevisionGUID="4f2edc1c-8ba3-48e3-8426-7326efee75ef" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In *Works and Days* Hesiod outlines the successive [Ages of Man][1]. His description of the current times, the Iron Age, includes a doom and gloom prediction of the destruction of mankind at the hands of Zeus&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; And Zeus will destroy this race of mortal men also when they come to have grey hair on the temples at their birth.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Hesiod. The Homeric Hymns and Homerica with an English Translation by Hugh G. Evelyn-White. Works and Days&lt;/sub&gt; &#xA;&#xA;I'm trying to gauge the significance of this doomsday prophecy, within the wider framework of Greek mythology. Is Hesiod's version of the endtimes mentioned elsewhere? Were later authors influenced by it, and did they build upon it? Was Zeus thought of as the eventual destructor of humanity?&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; The poet explicitly mentions that Zeus also had a hand in ending the second generation of men, for they had grown arrogant and ignored their sacred obligations to the gods. The first, third and fourth generations apparently died out without divine intervention.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_Man#Hesiod.27s_Five_Ages" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21394" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2828" RevisionGUID="b02b3ca3-f0c6-4f58-a88e-c6c156900fc0" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="I have been reading about solar eclipses and it appears most cultures view them as a bad sign. For example, according to the article [Solar Eclipses in History and Mythology][1] it appears that all cultures either believed solar eclipses are &quot;bad&quot; sign or sign of wrath. &#xA;&#xA;And another source says the following: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; In many ways it makes sense that eclipses would be seen as bad omens. For most early cultures, the sun was seen as a life-giver, something that was there every day, so something that blots out the sun was a terribly bad event, filled with foreboding.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;The Sun-Eating Dragon, Eclipse Stories, Myths, and Legends. By Noel Wanner. http://www.exploratorium.edu/eclipse-archive/dragon.html&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Are there any stories that present solar eclipses as a good sign?&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.bibalex.org/eclipse2006/HistoricalObservationsofSolarEclipses.htm&#xA;  [2]: http://www.exploratorium.edu/eclipse-archive/dragon.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21395" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2834" RevisionGUID="91a7add2-f9cf-42f2-b163-94790ea87955" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In the song [&quot;Something Just Like This,&quot;](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FM7MFYoylVs) by Coldplay and the Chainsmokers, there's a line that says: &#xA;&#xA;&gt;I've been reading books of old&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;The legends and the myths.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;Achilles and his gold, &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;Hercules and his gifts. &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;I recall Achilles being associated with martial prowess and his famous heel, not gold. What does the song refer to? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21396" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2839" RevisionGUID="c1717acb-e823-4145-a543-d8d3d6eff02d" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Not really.&#xA;-----------&#xA;&#xA;First, we should really note that &quot;fate&quot; is very strongly associated with female, collective deities in Norse mythology: the Norns, the Valkyries and the Dísir all are connected with fate somehow. &#xA;&#xA;On the other hand, we don't really know much of what kind of god Hoenir was. He does appear as a companion of Odin when the first humans where created, he was with Odin and Loki on the journeys that are backstories to the legend of Sigurd, and of Hrungnir's kidnapping of Idunn. He was also one of the gods the Aesir sent as hostage to the Vanir at the end of their war, and was said to have been seen as a great chieftain, except that he relied entirely on the advice of Mimir.&#xA;&#xA;However, there is also a passage in *Völupsa* which might connect Hoenir with a new fate. Verse 61 (or 63, it seems to vary between translation) takes place after Ragnarök, when a new world has arisen, and starts with two lines which seem very difficult to translate:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Þá kná Hænir&lt;br&gt;&#xA;&gt; hlautvið kjósa&#xA;&#xA;Some translations I've seen:&#xA;&gt;Then can Hoenir&lt;br&gt; choose his lot&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;Then Hönir wins | the prophetic wand&#xA;&#xA;Gro Steinsland instead suggests that he plants a new world tree. Anyway, it seems more connected with prophesy than actually embodying fate.&#xA;&#xA;So Hoenir is really a very shadowy god, but there is really nothing that explicitly connect him with fate.&#xA;&#xA;Sources&#xA;-------&#xA;I've checked Gro Steinsland *Fornnordisk religion*. I've also checked Lars Lönnroth's translation of the *Poetic edda*, and some translations in English: [1][1], [2][2], [3][3]&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14726/14726-h/14726-h.htm#VOLUSPA_THE_VALAS_PROPHECY&#xA;  [2]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe03.htm&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda/V%C3%B6lusp%C3%A1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21397" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3273" RevisionGUID="d4ad7b65-5f65-449f-93aa-1ac9d7a91870" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In the *[Fantasy Island][1]* (1998) episode &quot;Dreams&quot;, Michael Allen is a stockbroker who finds a mysterious woman (played by Jennifer Garner) who says this to him when they first meet.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Sally: You know, there's a theory that dolphins were once human beings who chose to return to the sea. That would explain it.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Michael: Explain what?&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Sally: Why they have such a close connection to people.&#xA;&#xA;As it turns out, &quot;Sally&quot; is indeed a dolphin who can transform to a human.&#xA;&#xA;This sounds like the sort of thing that would be in a myth or traditional stories (although her phrasing it as a &quot;theory&quot; is a little strange). Are there any myths or stories about dolphins being humans who chose to return to the sea? Or is this something likely made up for the TV show?&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy_Island_(1998_TV_series)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21398" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3194" RevisionGUID="fe28698d-364f-485f-9650-4c782dd7d87b" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Libulan is a moon God of the Visayan pantheon. His story is roughly something like this:&#xA;&#xA;&gt;Kaptan is said to be the father of Lihangin, the god of the wind, while Magwayen sired the goddess of the sea, Lidagat.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;With the permission of their fathers, Lidagat and Lihangin got married and raised four kids: the strong Licalibutan who had a body made of rock; the always-happy Liadlaw (god of sun) who was covered with gold; the shy and weak Libulan (god of moon) who was made of copper; and the only daughter, Lisuga (god of stars), whose silver body always sparkled.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;For a time, the family seemed to be happy and had no issues at all. However, everything changed when Lihangin and Lidagat died. Their eldest son, Licalibutan, became the victim of his own greed.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;One day, he planned a surprise attack against the skyworld to hopefully seize its control from the supreme god Kaptan, his grandfather. Joining him were Liadlaw and Libulan who were too afraid of him to even think of backing out. Together, they went to the skyworld and blew up the gates protecting the kingdom.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;When Kaptan learned about the attack, he was enraged. The skygod sent three lightning bolts to his grandsons, which all melted instantly. Both Liadlaw and Libulan were reduced into a ball, while Licalibutan‘s rock-hard body broke into pieces, fell into the sea, and became what is known as land.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;Lisuga, unaware of what was happening, also went to the skyworld to visit his grandfather. Kaptan, too blinded by his anger, struck the innocent Lisuga with lightning as well, breaking her into thousand pieces.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;When he and Magwayen finally met, things started to sink in for Kaptan. He lost all his grandchildren, including the beautiful Lisuga who had nothing to do with the conspiracy at all.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;The grief-stricken Kaptan, upon realizing *he could no longer revive the four deities* , decided to just provide their remains with an everlasting light. Hence, Liadlaw became the sun, Libulan became the moon, and Lisuga became what we know today as the stars.&#xA;&#xA;([source](https://www.filipiknow.net/the-ancient-visayan-deities-of-philippine-mythology/))&#xA;&#xA;However, it is said that Malandok, the god of war, fell on love with him and that in the war that Sidapa, the god of death, and Malandok fought(to win Libulan), Sidapa won. How is that possible if Libulan was already dead? &#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21399" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3146" RevisionGUID="fe214bcc-58de-4a37-b0f6-65e42d7f3801" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The duel in Book 22 is not the first time Achilles and Hector met on the battlefield. The story of their earlier encounter is told by Achilles himself, a little earlier in Book 9: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; [346] &quot;Nay, Odysseus, together with thee and the other princes let him take thought to ward from the ships consuming fire. Verily full much hath he wrought without mine aid; lo, he hath builded a wall and digged a ditch hard by, wide and great, and therein hath he planted stakes; yet even so availeth he not to stay the might of man-slaying Hector. But so long as I was warring amid the Achaeans Hector had no mind to rouse battle far from the wall, but would come only so far as the Scaean gates and the oak-tree; there once he awaited me in single combat and hardly did he escape my onset.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Homer. The Iliad. Translated by Murray, A T. Loeb Classical Library Volumes. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1924.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Achilles respects Hector as a warrior, but I think it's obvious that he has no doubt he will prevail over the Trojan prince in single combat. I think it's safe to assume that Achilles had no fear for his life during the duel in Book 22." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21400" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3138" RevisionGUID="a375cc1f-e394-429a-87a1-f937ca2ba4c1" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The lion-headed giant apparently is [Leon][1], who, according to Ptolemy Hephaestion was slain by Herakles during the [Gigantomachy][2]:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Herakles did not wear the skin of the Nemean lion, but that of a certain Leon (Lion), one of the Gigantes (Giants) killed by Herakles whom he had challenged to single combat.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Ptolemy Hephaestion, New History Book 5 (summary from Photius, Myriobiblon 190) (trans. Pearse) (Greek mythographer C1st to C2nd A.D.)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Unfortunately, I do not think a tale of Leon battling Aether survive. &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Gigante/GiganteLeon.html&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giants_(Greek_mythology)#The_Gigantomachy" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21401" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3089" RevisionGUID="56992b65-d604-4610-abd2-b4e1cce7d386" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The relationship between these Jesus and Dionysus has multiple aspects.  Here are the most basic:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; - Both had a divine father and a mortal mother &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; - Both were sacrificed&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; - Both died and were resurrected&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; - Wine symbolizes the blood of both&#xA;&#xA;In the Christian tradition, Jesus says *&quot;for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.&quot;* [[Matthew 26:28][1]] In the pagan tradition, each year Dionysus is symbolically [torn apart][2]* in the cutting and stamping of grapes, buried in a cave (typically in a cask), and in spring is &quot;reborn in [spirit][3]&quot;, literally.  &#xA;&#xA;Dionysus also famously &quot;returned from the East&quot; after his resurrection.  *(Some accounts have him returning from the South, but in both cases he was regarded as a foreign god. This is part of the reason [Pentheus][4], &quot;Divine Agony&quot;, rejects him.)*  Jesus &quot;was from the East&quot; from a Greek perspective, certainly foreign, and came to Greece through [the Apostle Paul][5].&#xA;&#xA;From a mythological perspective, these gods are both &quot;liminal&quot;, meaning that they move between worlds, in this case, life/death or earth/heaven. &#xA;&#xA;Dionysus is also known as &quot;twice born&quot; because he was first carried by his mother, Semele, and then removed on her death and borne in Zeus' thigh until his second birth.  Jesus is often regarded as having been &quot;born again&quot; and the term is still used today in many Christian sects to describe adherents.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;-----------&#xA;*The sacrifice of Dionysus is sometimes referred to as the [sparagmos][2] where he is torn apart and eaten by Titans.  This event in commemorated in [the Bacchae][2], which has a religious function--Greek dramas were presented at the [Festival of Dionysus][6]. &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;You may find this verse from TS Eliot interesting:&#xA;&#xA;*&quot;The dripping blood our only drink,&lt;br&gt;&#xA;The bloody flesh our only food:&lt;br&gt;&#xA;In spite of which we like to think&lt;br&gt;&#xA;That we are sound, substantial flesh and blood—&lt;br&gt;&#xA;Again, in spite of that, we call this Friday good.&quot;*&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0155%3Abook%3DMatthew%3Achapter%3D26%3Averse%3D28&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparagmos&#xA;  [3]: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/spirit&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentheus&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysia" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21402" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3072" RevisionGUID="d040d92e-e84f-48e9-a89d-7d07ddd60948" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="It is not uncommon for Greek mythological figures to have both male and female lovers. That said, all of Orion's sexual relationships mentioned in the myths assembled on [theoi.com][1] seem to be with women. A few examples:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Women of Tanagra ... often I adorned [with songs] our ancestor Kephisos with my words, often great Orion and the fifty sons of high strength whom he fathered by intercourse with the fair Nymphai (Nymphs) [i.e. daughters of the river Kephisos (Cephisus)].&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Corinna, Fragment 655 (trans. Campbell, Vol. Greek Lyric IV)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; ---&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Artemis slew Orion on Delos. He was said to be a Gigas (Giant) of massive proportions born of Ge (Gaea, the Earth), but Pherekydes (Pherecydes) [C6th B.C. poet] says that his parents were Poseidon and Euryale. From Poseidon he was given the power of walking across the sea. His first wife was Side, who for vying with Hera in shapeliness was thrown by her into Haides' realm. After that Orion went to Khios (Chios) where he courted Oinopion's (Oenopion's) daughter Merope. Oinopion, however, got him drunk, and, as he slept, blinded him and tossed him out on the beach. He made his way to the bronze workshop of Hephaistos (Hephaestus), where he seized a boy [Kedalion (Cedalion)], set him on his shoulders, and ordered him to guide him toward the east. Once there, he looked up and was completely healed by the rays of Helios (the Sun). Immediately he started back to confront Oinopion. But Poseidon had provided Oinopion with a house beneath the earth, built by Hephaistos. Meanwhile, Eos (the Dawn), whom Aphrodite taunted with constant passion as punishment for sleeping with Ares, fell in love with Orion and took him off with her to Delos. There he was killed, according to some, for challenging Artemis to a discus match. Others say that Artemis shot him as he was forcing his attention on Oupis (Opis), a virgin who had come from the Hyperboreans.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 1. 25 (trans. Aldrich)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; ---&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Aëro, so the story runs, was the daughter of Oinopion (Oenopion) and the nymph Helike (Helice). Orion, the son of Hyrieos (Hyrieus), fell in love with her, and asked her father for her hand; for her sake he rendered the island where they lived habitable--it was formerly full of wild beasts--, and he also gathered together much booty from the folk who lived there and brought it as a bridal-gift for her. Oinopion however constantly kept putting off the time of the wedding, for he hated the idea of having such a man as his daughter's husband. Then Orion, maddened by strong drink, broke in the doors of the chamber where the girl was lying asleep, and as he was offering violence to her Oinopion attacked him and put out his eyes with a burning brand.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Parthenius, Love Romances 20 (trans.Gaselee)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; ---&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &quot;[The goddess Harmonia laments her marriage to a mortal man :] ‘I will proclaim how Orion loved Erigeneia [Eos the Dawn], and I will recall the match of Kephalos (Cephalus); if I go to the misty sunset, my comfort is Selene herself who felt the same for Endymion upon Latmos.’&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Nonnus, Dionysiaca 4. 192 ff (trans. Rouse)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;This of course does not exclude the possibility that the huntsman had male lovers as well. It does however invalidate the first part of your quote. Orion's relationships with women were certainly not limited to brotherly love.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Gigante/GiganteOrion.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21403" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3069" RevisionGUID="1d1e99a9-12d4-498e-bc42-31e2077005ce" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In Book VI of the Odyssey, the sea-nymph Eidothea identifies her father Proteus, the [Old Man of the Sea][1], as an Egyptian: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; &quot;'Stranger,' replied she, 'I will make it all quite clear to you. There is an old immortal who lives under the sea hereabouts and whose name is Proteus. He is an Egyptian, and people say he is my father; he is Neptune's head man and knows every inch of ground all over the bottom of the sea. If you can snare him and hold him tight, he will tell you about your voyage, what courses you are to take, and how you are to sail the sea so as to reach your home. He will also tell you, if you so will, all that has been going on at your house both good and bad, while you have been away on your long and dangerous journey.' &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Homer, *The Odyssey*. Translated by Samuel Butler&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;I wonder why Homer assumes an Egyptian origin for Proteus. Is there an Egyptian deity or mythical creature that fits the Old Man of the Sea motif?&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Man_of_the_Sea" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21404" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3052" RevisionGUID="faf127e9-38e4-455d-9281-7f3d11b4ff82" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="When Ishtar proposes to Gilgamesh, he articulates the stories of her previous lovers who suffered badly as a consequence of being with her. However, there is one of them who is named Ishullanu that when Ishtar asks to be with her he strongly refuses. What kind of a man and for what possible reason would reject a goddess like Ishtar? Could it be the same reason as Gilgamesh's or is there a background reason for it since it is not explicit in the epic? Or since Ishullanu also mentioned that he did not want to be subject to slander and insults could he be married to someone else?&#xA;&#xA;The following lines are my reference,&#xA;&#xA;&gt; &quot;0 my Ishullanu, let us taste your vigour:&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt;  Put out your 'hand' and stroke my quim!&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;But Ishullanu said to you:&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;'''Me! What do you want of me?&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;Did my mother not bake? Have I not eaten,&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;that now I should eat the bread of slander and insults?&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;Should I let only rushes cover me in winter?&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21405" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3041" RevisionGUID="8fa6066a-f546-464c-bfe2-43f4fb366404" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="According to this [blog post][1] by Adam James Jones the &quot;Skinwalker curse is desired and acquired&quot;:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; They are stories of shape-shifting creatures acrosss Navajo Nation, the 24k-plus reservation land encompassing most of northeastern Arizona and the adjacent corner sections of New Mexico and Utah. A taboo subject amongst natives, Skinwalkers are seldom discussed with members outside the tribe, and rarely even inside it. The Navajo Skinwalker legend is not unlike that of the European werewolf: A once-ordinary human discovers the ability to shift into animal form at night where his doings then become almost exclusively evil. Unlike the werewolf, however, the Skinwalker curse is desired and acquired, that is, Skinwalkers do not have the bad luck to be “bitten” and forced into the curse. Rather, they want it and are willing to perform extraordinary rites of evil in order to achieve it.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; There are multiple legends behind the origin of the Navajo Skinwalker. One claims the Navajos mastered shapeshifting in order to escape persecution and relocation — the Kit Carson-led cornering of the tribe deep in Canyon de Chelly and later their forced and disastrous relocation to Bosque de Redondo. Another version relates to the Navajo belief in the Anasazi curse — that the Anasazi were responsible for the prevailing witchcraft in the Navajo tribes — and that Navajo Skinwalkers used the off-limit Anasazi ruins and grave sites to gain certain powers.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The most prominent history of the Skinwalker tells of a particular form of Navajo witch, or an ’ánt’įįhnii, called ayee naaldlooshii, translated to mean “with it, he goes on all fours.” The yee naaldlooshii is usually a medicine man or high-ranking priest who has obtained supernatural powers through breaking a cultural taboo, including murder, seduction, or the corrupting of a family member.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Upon accepting this deep and consuming level of witchcraft, Skinwalkers are banished forever from a tribe (but considering the foreknowledge of this as well the despicable acts required for the transformation, the aspiring Skinwalker surely possessed an early, pre-seated hate for the tribe). Prowling alone in the desert, a Skinwalker (and also unlike the werewolf) has the ability to shape-shift into any animal they wish, although most commonly the animal is a coyote, wolf, cougar, fox, owl, or crow — a reason why pelts of these animals are widely restricted among the Navajo.&#xA;&#xA;The site Navajo Legends isn't as detailed, but also mentions that becoming a skinwalker takes the [murder of a family member][2]: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; To become a skinwalker requires the most evil of deeds, the killing of a close family member. They literally become humans who have acquired immense supernatural power, including the ability to transform into animals and other people.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://adamjamesjones.wordpress.com/2011/07/28/skinwalkers/&#xA;  [2]: http://www.navajolegends.org/navajo-skinwalker-legend/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21406" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3025" RevisionGUID="26a5a3a1-f3bb-4684-93af-1359fe1e90c3" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In *The Mountain Chant: A Navajo Ceremony*, Washington Matthews describes the construction of a Navajo sweat lodge:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; At dawn the old man woke them and said: &quot;Go out, my children, and build a sweat-house, and make a fire to heat stones for the bath, and build the sweat-house only as I will tell you. Make the frame of four different kinds of wood. Put kaç (juniper) in the cast, tse`isçázi (mountain mahogany) in the south, ¢estsìn (piñon) in the west, and awètsal (cliff rose) in the north; join them together at the top and cover them with any shrubs you choose. Get two small forked sticks, the length of the forearm, to pass the hot stones into the sweat-house, and one long stick to poke the stones out of the fire, and let all these sticks be such as have their bark abraded by the antlers of the deer. Take of all the plants on which the deer most like to browse and spread them on the floor of the sweat-house, that we may sit on them.&quot; So they built the lodge as he directed, and lit the fire and heated the stones.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Source: The Mountain Chant: A Navajo Ceremony. Washington Matthews. 1887.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Why must the frame consist of these four specific kinds of wood? How is their orientation important? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21407" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3010" RevisionGUID="8bdb26d2-5e64-4638-8f96-28ae39fd0b5b" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="From Revelation 12 (KJ21): &#xA;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; And there appeared a great wonder in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.  &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; And she, being with child, cried, travailing in birth and in pain to be delivered.  &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; And there appeared another wonder in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.  &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; And his tail drew a third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered to devour her child as soon as it was born.  &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; And she brought forth a manchild, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up unto God and to His throne.  &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt; And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.  &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;7&lt;/sup&gt; And there was war in Heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,  &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;8&lt;/sup&gt; and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in Heaven.&#xA;&#xA;Who is this woman?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21408" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2972" RevisionGUID="3b59a5bb-5f95-4c54-b11a-03cc8e6fbe7a" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="[The Grail -Two Studies][1] (p 51). By Leopold von Schroeder, Alexander Jacob:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The representation of the sun as heavenly mill has already been ascertained by Kuhn.[66] &quot;In German folk-songs the morning sun appears as a mill when it grinds silver and gold on the mountain. On the representation of the sun as a mill is based the fact that the Milky Way, in which the sun is supposed to stand at noon, is called the Mill Way.  That is why Kuhn and Schiefner have traced back the Grotti mill as well as the Sampo derived therefrom to the sun conceived of as a wonderful mill.&quot;  The full proof of the correctness of this interpretation however has been brought forward only by the most recent Kalevala research, and indeed in a remarkable song from Ingermannland in which the liberation of the sun and moon from the power of the evil Louhi emerges quite clearly as just another verstion of the acquisition of the Sampo.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; ... &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Therefore the moon would have as much a claim to be the original image of the Sampo-or of the Grail. &#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://goo.gl/EFECcG" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21409" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2967" RevisionGUID="98cb0ba3-f03f-479e-983c-7d141a08d928" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In the 2017 film *Wonder Woman*, and I assume the comics featuring the eponymous character, the Amazons are associated with Zeus and Ares is their adversary. &#xA;&#xA;This is bizarre. The Amazons are a warlike tribe, skilled in all things war. If anything I would assume the god of war would very strongly favour them. And this, apparently, is the case (all quotes via [theoi.com][1]): &#xA;&#xA;&gt; [King Phineus tells the Argonauts of the obstacles they will face on their voyage across the Black Sea :] ‘When you have left these behind [the Mossynoekoi tribe on the southern shore of the Black Sea], you must beach your ship on a low-lying island, though not before you find some means of driving off the innumerable Birds that haunt the lonely shore and pay no deference to man. Her the Queens of the Amazones, Otrere and Antiope [or Hippolyte], built a marble shrine for Ares when they were going to war.’  &#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Apollonius Rhodius, Argonautica 2. 382 ff (trans. Rieu)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The Amazones of the Doiantian plain were by no means gentle, well-conducted folk; they were brutal and aggressive, and their main concern in life was war. War, indeed, was in their blood, daughters of Ares as they were and of the Nymphe Harmonia, who lay with the god in the depths of the Akmonion Wood and bore him girls who fell in love with fighting.  &#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Apollonius Rhodius, Argonautica 2. 989 ff (trans. Rieu) &lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Peerless amid all the Amazones unto Troy-town Penthesileia came... the tireless War-god's child, the mailed maid, like to the Blessed Gods.  &#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Quintus Smyrnaeus, Fall of Troy 1. 61 ff (trans. Way)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; As a symbol of her pre-eminence among them [the Amazones], Hippolyte was possessor of the belt of Ares.  &#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 2. 98 (trans. Aldrich)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Is there a story that places the Amazons against Ares? Or one that allies them with Zeus? &#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/AresFavour.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21410" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2965" RevisionGUID="f08cc41f-19ef-4770-a905-79266ff18152" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In Book 5 of *Laws*, Plato is singling out Hestia, Zeus and Athena while describing the ideal city: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; The next thing to be noted is, that the city should be placed as nearly as possible in the centre of the country; we should choose a place which possesses what is suitable for a city, and this may easily be imagined and described. Then we will divide the city into twelve portions, first founding temples to Hestia, to Zeus and to Athene, in a spot which we will call the Acropolis, and surround with a circular wall, making the division of the entire city and country radiate from this point. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source *Laws*, by Plato. Translated by Benjamin Jowett.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Why this particular triplet? And why does Hestia come first?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21411" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2952" RevisionGUID="690d06b9-0733-49e7-b47f-30d80d6ad1f6" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In Chapter XXIX of the Apocalypse of Abraham, a &quot;man&quot; appears &lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; And I [looked and] saw a man going out from the left side of the heathen; and there went out men and women and children, from the side of the heathen, many hosts, and worshipped him.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; And while I still looked there came out from the right side (many), and some insulted that man, while some struck him; others, however, worshipped him. [And] I saw how these worshipped him, and Azazel ran and worshipped him, and having kissed his face he turned and stood behind him.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; And I said: “O Eternal, Mighty One! Who is the man insulted and beaten, who is worshipped by the heathen with Azazel?”&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; And He answered and said: “Hear, Abraham! The man whom thou sawest insulted and beaten and again worshipped—that is the relief&#xA; (granted) by the heathen to the people who proceed from thee,&#xA;in the last days, in this twelfth hour of the Age of ungodliness. But in the twelfth year of my final Age I will set up this man from thy generation, whom thou sawest (issue) from my people; this one all&#xA;will follow, and such as are called by me (will) join, (even) those who change in their counsels.&#xA;&#xA;Wikipedia suggests &lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; it might be a reference to Jesus, but doesn't make a very strong case about it:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; According to Jacob Licht (Professor of Biblical Studies, Tel-Aviv University), this work is a Jewish text, although not one that represents mainstream rabbinic Jewish thought. Licht writes:&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &gt; The most obvious and perhaps the correct explanation of this passage is to declare it a late Christian interpolation, yet &quot;the man&quot; does not fit the medieval Christian concept of Jesus. His function is not clearly messianic. This problematic passage therefore may have originated in some Judeo-Christian sect, which saw Jesus as precursor of the Messiah, or it may be Jewish, badly rewritten by an early Christian editor. Perhaps it reflects a Jewish view of Jesus as an apostle to the heathen, an explanation which would make it unique, and indeed startling. &#xA;&#xA;---&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; The Apocalypse of Abraham. Edited, With a Translation From the Slavonic Text and Notes by George Herbert Box.&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; Wikipedia contributors, &quot;Apocalypse of Abraham,&quot; Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Apocalypse_of_Abraham&amp;oldid=782000316 (accessed September 15, 2017). &lt;/sub&gt;  &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypse_of_Abraham&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21412" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2946" RevisionGUID="ea40d771-dadc-4e05-a89e-b51afa52096b" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="I don't know about specific items or how you could fit this in your performance, but the first step for a mortal to prepare for a roundtrip journey to Hades should be to initiate themselves in the [Eleusinian Mysteries][1]. We can only speculate on the details involved, but being an initiate apparently helped Herakles to bring [Cerberus][2] up from Hades: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; [4.25.1] But when Heracles had made the circuit of the Adriatic, and had journeyed around the gulf on foot, he came to Epirus, whence he made his way to Peloponnesus. And now that he had performed the tenth Labour he received a Command from Eurystheus to bring Cerberus up from Hades to the light of day. And assuming that it would be to his advantage for the accomplishment of this Labour, he went to Athens and took part in the Eleusinian Mysteries, Musaeus, the son of Orpheus, being at that time in charge of the initiatory rites.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Library of History of Diodorus Siculus. Published in Vol. II &#xA;of the Loeb Classical Library edition, 1935&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleusinian_Mysteries&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerberus#The_Twelfth_Labour_of_Heracles" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21413" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2944" RevisionGUID="eaac2425-a213-4dcc-948e-6987e9887c68" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The &quot;seven spirits [of God]&quot; are mentioned multiple times in Revelation (KJ21):&#xA;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;1:4&lt;/sup&gt; John, To the seven churches in Asia: Grace be unto you and peace from Him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits which are before His throne;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;3:1&lt;/sup&gt; “And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write: ‘These things saith He that hath the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: I know thy works, and that thou hast a name that thou livest, but thou art dead.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;4:5&lt;/sup&gt; And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;5:6&lt;/sup&gt; And I beheld, and lo, in the midst of the throne and the four living beings, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth.&#xA;&#xA;Who or what are these seven spirits?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21414" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2857" RevisionGUID="53b842a2-4019-41fd-b8f6-c14afe969327" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Well, not many do anymore. I found this on a [question on the skeptics stack exchange][1]&#xA;&#xA;&gt; [Carolyn J. Marr] illustrates a change in Native Americans' attitudes towards photography from the late 19th to the early 20th century.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;At first, many Native Americans were wary of having their photographs taken and often refused. They believed that the process could steal a person's soul and disrespected the spiritual world.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;Over time, however, some Native Americans came to cherish photographs as links to ancestors and even integrated them into important ceremonies.&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Historical Analysis and Interpretation: Photographs and Symbols][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;As to why, the indigenous people didn't understand this technology. In their minds, they saw this as magic that could trap a person or an image inside something. Hence the idea that it would steal your soul. This is similar to the ideas of medieval peoples that found alien things magical and often evil (hence the witch hunts, even though they weren't as huge as they seem), I'm sure the reaction of a medieval person to photographs would be very similar. &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/8380/did-some-cultures-believe-that-photography-can-steal-your-soul&#xA;  [2]: http://web.archive.org/web/20091113050027/www.loc.gov/teachers/classroommaterials/connections/pacific/thinking3.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21415" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2859" RevisionGUID="a28b43a8-036f-4513-a619-3aec436218ae" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The BBC History article [Ancient History in depth: Jason and the Golden Fleece. BBC - History][1] mentions a Hittite story similar to the story of Jason and Medea: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Thus the classic triangle of hero, dark power and female helper is formed, to be repeated in stories all the way down to Hollywood. And it seems possible that this theme was based on an even earlier myth. An excavation of the 1920s and 30s, at Boghaz Koy, in central Turkey, uncovered Indo-European tablets from a Hittite civilisation dating to the 14th century BC. One of these has an account on it of a story similar to that of Jason and Medea, and may reveal the prehistory of the myth.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Michael Wood. Ancient History in depth: Jason and the Golden Fleece. BBC - History. [Accessed 24 Aug. 2017]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;What story might that be? What parallels does it share with the Greek version?&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/greeks/jason_01.shtml" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21416" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2868" RevisionGUID="49a21a50-738b-40de-8a50-3db2ff82a2c0" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Pausanias tells us that the Spartans worshipped *Aphrodite Hoplismeni* (~armed) and *Aphrodite Areia* (~of Ares, warlike): &#xA;&#xA;&gt; [[Paus. 3.15.10][1]] Not far from the theatre is a sanctuary of Poseidon God of Kin, and there are hero-shrines of Cleodaeus, son of Hyllus, and of Oebalus. The most famous of their sanctuaries of Asclepius has been built near Booneta, and on the left is the hero-shrine of Teleclus. I shall mention him again later in my history of Messenia. A little farther on is a small hill, on which is an ancient temple with a wooden image of Aphrodite armed. This is the only temple I know that has an upper storey built upon it.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; [[Paus. 3.17.5][2]] On the left of the Lady of the Bronze House they have set up a sanctuary of the Muses, because the Lacedaemonians used to go out to fight, not to the sound of the trumpet, but to the music of the flute and the accompaniment of lyre and harp. Behind the Lady of the Bronze House is a temple of Aphrodite Areia (Warlike). The wooden images are as old as any in Greece.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; [[Paus. 3.23.1][3]] Cythera lies opposite Boeae; to the promontory of Platanistus, the point where the island lies nearest to the mainland, it is a voyage of forty stades from a promontory on the mainland called Onugnathus. In Cythera is a port Scandeia on the coast, but the town Cythera is about ten stades inland from Scandeia. The sanctuary of Aphrodite Urania (the Heavenly) is most holy, and it is the most ancient of all the sanctuaries of Aphrodite among the Greeks. The goddess herself is represented by an armed image of wood.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Pausanias. Pausanias Description of Greece with an English Translation by W.H.S. Jones, Litt.D., and H.A. Ormerod, M.A., in 4 Volumes. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1918&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Why would the goddess of love, beauty, and procreation be armed? She wasn't exactly known for her military attributes. In fact, in [Book 5 of the Iliad][4] Zeus very bluntly dismisses her abilities as a warrior: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Of a surety now Cypris has been urging some one of the women of Achaea to follow after the Trojans, whom now she so wondrously loveth; and while stroking such a one of the fair-robed women of Achaea, she hath scratched upon her golden brooch her delicate hand.” So spake she, but the father of men and gods smiled, and calling to him golden Aphrodite, said: “Not unto thee, my child, are given works of war; nay, follow thou after the lovely works of marriage, and all these things shall be the business of swift Ares and Athene.”&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Homer. The Iliad with an English Translation by A.T. Murray, Ph.D. in two volumes. Cambridge, MA., Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann, Ltd. 1924.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Was this militaristic version of Aphrodite a Lacedaemonian peculiarity? Could, perhaps, these images that are &quot;are as old as any in Greece&quot; be an allusion to Ishtar, an echo of Aphrodite's Mesopotamian origins?&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0525.tlg001.perseus-eng1:3.15.10&#xA;  [2]: http://data.perseus.org/citations/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0525.tlg001.perseus-eng1:3.17.5&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0525.tlg001.perseus-eng1:3.23.1&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0012.tlg001.perseus-eng1:5.416-5.459" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21417" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2871" RevisionGUID="82f7c351-045e-45c4-b33d-af0e2776f94f" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The plot of the Australian television series *[Cleverman][1]* is centred around the struggles the mythological Hairypeople - or Hairies for short - face in co-existing with humans. Wikipedia describes these Hairies as &quot;stronger and hardier than humans, covered in thick facial and body hair, and have tough, sharp fingernails&quot;, and tells us the species was inspired by Aboriginal legends: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; The Hairypeople in Cleverman are inspired by Australian Aboriginal mythology of hairymen drawn from multiple Aboriginal peoples, including the Gamilaraay and Bundjalung people of northern New South Wales. In the series, they speak Kumbainggar, another language from northern New South Wales.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Cleverman. (2017, August 7). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 22:34, August 25, 2017, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cleverman&amp;oldid=794281184&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;The one creature that I found that may have inspired the series' writes is the [Yowie][2] - but I don't think it quite fits. The Yowie is closer to an ape than to humans. Cleverman's Hairies, on the other hand, are nearly indistinguishable from humans once they shave.   &#xA;&#xA;Do we know what legends inspired Cleverman's Hairypeople?&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4649420/&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yowie" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21418" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2880" RevisionGUID="da24483a-bdcd-4dc2-9f64-e6cb6b69f986" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="[Typhon][1], a serpentine giant, attempted to overthrow Zeus. The earliest account of their battle can be found in the Theogony, and according to Hesiod Typhon &quot;would have come to reign over mortals and immortals, had not the father of men and gods been quick to perceive it&quot;: &#xA;&#xA;&gt;  But when Zeus had driven the Titans from heaven, huge Earth bore her youngest child Typhoeus of the love of Tartarus, by the aid of golden Aphrodite. Strength was with his hands in all that he did and the feet of the strong god were untiring. From his shoulders grew a hundred heads of a snake, a fearful dragon, with dark, flickering tongues, and from under the brows of his eyes in his marvellous heads flashed fire, and fire burned from his heads as he glared. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; And there were voices in all his dreadful heads which uttered every kind of sound unspeakable; for at one time they made sounds such that the gods understood, but at another, the noise of a bull bellowing aloud in proud ungovernable fury; and at another, the sound of a lion, relentless of heart; and at another, sounds like whelps, wonderful to hear; and again, at another, he would hiss, so that the high mountains re-echoed. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; And truly a thing past help would have happened on that day, and he would have come to reign over mortals and immortals, had not the father of men and gods been quick to perceive it. But he thundered hard and mightily: and the earth around resounded terribly and the wide heaven above, and the sea and Ocean's streams and the nether parts of the earth. Great Olympus reeled beneath the divine feet of the king as he arose and earth groaned thereat. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; And through the two of them heat took hold on the dark-blue sea, through the thunder and lightning, and through the fire from the monster, and the scorching winds and blazing thunderbolt. The whole earth seethed, and sky and sea: and the long waves raged along the beaches round and about at the rush of the deathless gods: and there arose an endless shaking. Hades trembled where he rules over the dead below, and the Titans under Tartarus who live with Cronos, because of the unending clamor and the fearful strife. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; So when Zeus had raised up his might and seized his arms, thunder and lightning and lurid thunderbolt, he leaped from Olympus and struck him, and burned all the marvellous heads of the monster about him. But when Zeus had conquered him and lashed him with strokes, Typhoeus was hurled down, a maimed wreck, so that the huge earth groaned. And flame shot forth from the thunderstricken lord in the dim rugged glens of the mount, when he was smitten. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; A great part of huge earth was scorched by the terrible vapor and melted as tin melts when heated by men's art in channelled crucibles; or as iron, which is hardest of all things, is shortened by glowing fire in mountain glens and melts in the divine earth through the strength of Hephaestus.Even so, then, the earth melted in the glow of the blazing fire. And in the bitterness of his anger Zeus cast him into wide Tartarus. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Hesiod. The Homeric Hymns and Homerica with an English Translation by Hugh G. Evelyn-White. Theogony. Cambridge, MA.,Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1914.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Interestingly, although Typhon's revolt threatened not only Zeus but all Olympians, this was a fight the thunder god fought alone. Not only didn't the rest of the gods stand by their leader, but - at least according to Pindar and Pseudo-Apollodorus - they transformed into animals and fled to Egypt to escape the battle.&#xA;&#xA;You may find more information on Typhon on theoi.com: &#xA;&#xA;- [Part 1: Introduction &amp; Myths][2]&#xA;- [Part 2: Zeus &amp; Typhoeus (Story from Nonnus' Dionysiaca)][3]&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhon&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Gigante/Typhoeus.html&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theoi.com/Gigante/Typhoeus2.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21419" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2884" RevisionGUID="b68ed91f-cd2e-4b59-90d2-915e4e21be92" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="From Revelation 17 (KJ21): &#xA;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;10&lt;/sup&gt; And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other has not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;11&lt;/sup&gt; And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, yet is one of the seven and goeth into perdition.&#xA;&#xA;Who are these seven kings, that precede Satan?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21420" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1354" RevisionGUID="fb3b34b5-dafb-41b1-a1aa-c2b841df3148" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The bet didn't call for flawless creations; Sindri and Brokkr just had to do better than the sons of Ivaldi. &#xA;&#xA;&gt; After that, Loki went to those dwarves who are called Ívaldi's Sons; and they made the hair, and Skídbladnir also, and the spear which became Odin's possession, and was called Gungnir. Then Loki wagered his head with the dwarf called Brokkr that Brokkr's brother Sindri could not make three other precious things equal in virtue to these.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Skáldskaparmal, The Prose Edda of Snorri Sturlson, translated by Arthur Gilchrist Brodeur](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre05.htm)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xA;&#xA;Apparently, the Aesir decided this was the case: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; This was their decision: that the hammer was best of all the precious works, and in it there was the greatest defence against the Rime-Giants; and they gave sentence, that the dwarf should have his wager.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21421" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2886" RevisionGUID="081934cb-fc78-4082-bc87-ee572916f6d6" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="I was reading up on Finish mythology when I came across this interesting tidbit: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; It wasn't until the 16th century that anyone tried to write down some of these stories. A bishop named Mikael Agricola created a list of the most important gods in Finnish mythology, but there was something fishy about the list. He identified 12 gods, and that also happens to be the number of gods in the Greek pantheon. It seems that Agricola decided that Finnish mythology should look like Greek mythology, so he got to pick and choose which gods to include, which to forget, and which were the most important. So, we can never be too sure what was part of the original folklore.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Finnish Mythology: Creation &amp; Stories][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Which gods did [Mikael Agricola][2] include on his list? Which ones did he omit? &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://study.com/academy/lesson/finnish-mythology-creation-stories.html&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikael_Agricola" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21422" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2893" RevisionGUID="85712768-1109-48f3-9f4d-7133ed4ffd0a" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="As Lauren Ipsum points out, this question is based on a questionable premise: that Greek mythological creatures were supposed to have &quot;worked&quot; anatomically.&#xA;&#xA;I'm not an expert, so I can't say for sure, but I have never heard of any mythological explanation of centaur anatomy. Of course, many modern fantasy writers and mythological enthusiasts have come up with their own explanations, but I don't think those fall within the scope of this site (unless they have been influential enough to have passed into modern &quot;folklore&quot;).&#xA;&#xA;Some ancient accounts treat them as having partially divine ancestry (from Zeus), and of course Greek gods displayed many violations of conventional anatomy by being able to transform themselves and perform all kinds of physical feats that would be impossible for any living being in real life.&#xA;&#xA;Some books about myths that I have read suggest that the image of the centaur was inspired by how non-equestrian cultures first perceived men on horseback. I forget where I first read this, but it is mentioned in the Theoi.com article on centaurs that I linked to below. Although this explanation is certainly speculative, I find it intriguing.&#xA;&#xA;Ancient Greek depictions of centaurs show some anatomical variations: sometimes the foremost pair of legs are depicted as equine, but sometimes they are depicted as human legs.&#xA;&#xA;[![bronze centaur with human front legs next to a man][1]][1]&#xA;&#xA;&quot;Bronze man and centaur&quot;, a mid-8th century B.C. Greek bronze statue&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;### References:&#xA;&#xA;- Theoi.com, [Greek Mythology &gt;&gt; Bestiary &gt;&gt; Centaurs (Kentauroi)][2], Theoi Project © Copyright 2000 - 2017 Aaron J. Atsma, Netherlands &amp; New Zealand&#xA;&#xA;- The Met Collection Records &quot;[Bronze man and centaur][3]&quot;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/AazU0.jpg&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/KentauroiThessalioi.html&#xA;  [3]: http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/249228" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21423" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2901" RevisionGUID="b4bb3b5b-3cc2-4efd-b5aa-0ead96a9a963" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In some tellings of Typhon's revolt, the gods take animal forms and flee to Egypt in panic. The version in the Metamorphoses of [Antoninus Liberalis][1] references [Nicander of Colophon][2] and explicitly mentions the animals each god transformed into: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; [28. Typhon] He felt an urge to usurp the rule of Zeus and not one of the gods could withstand him as he attacked. In panic they fled to Aigyptos (Egypt), all except Athena and Zeus, who alone were left. Typhon hunted after them, on their track. When they fled they had changed themselves in anticipation into animal forms. Apollon became a hawk [i.e. the Egyptian god Horus], Hermes an ibis [the Egyptian god Thoth], Ares became a fish, the lepidotus [Egyptian Lepidotus or Onuris], Artemis a cat [Neith or Bastet], Dionysos took the shape of a goat [Osiris or Arsaphes], Herakles a fawn, Hephaistos (Hephaestus) an ox [Ptah], and Leto a shrew mouse [Wadjet]. The rest of the gods each took on what transformations they could. When Zeus struck Typhon with a thunderbolt, Typhon, aflame hid himself and quenched the blaze in the sea.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: ANTONINUS LIBERALIS. Metamorphoses. Translation by Celoria, F. London: Routledge.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;This is an etiological myth, the Greeks used this story to explain the origin of the therianthropic deities of Egypt. In the quote, the translator helpfully indicates the Egyptian deity each animal corresponds to. Except for the fawn, the animal Heracles transformed to. &#xA;&#xA;The one Egyptian deity I could find that is associated with deer is [Satis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satis_(goddess)). However, a hunting and fertility goddess doesn't seem a likely equivalent of Heracles. &#xA;&#xA;Why does Heracles transform to a fawn? &#xA;&#xA;---&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;The original quote is: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; [28. Τυφών] οὗτος ἐπεθύμισε τοῦ Διὸς ἔχειν τὴν ἀρχὴν καὶ αὐτὸν ἐπερχόμενον οὐδεὶς ὑπέμενε τῶν θεῶν, ἀλλὰ δείσαντες ἔφυγον πάντες εἰς τὴν Αἴγυπτον, Ἀθηνᾶ δὲ καὶ Ζεὺς ὑπελείφθησαν μόνοι. Τυφὼν δ΄ ἐκ ποδὸς ἐδίωκεν. οἱ δὲ προμηθείᾳ διέφυγον ἀλλάξαντες εἰς ζῷα τὰς ὄψεις· καὶ Ἀπόλλων μὲν ἐγένετο ἱέραξ, Ἑρμῆς δὲ ἶβις, Ἄρης δὲ λεπιδωτὸς ἰχθύς, Ἄρτεμις δὲ αἴλουρος, τράγῳ δὲ εἰκάζεται Διόνυσος, ἕλλῳ δ΄ Ἡρακλῆς, βοῒ δ' Ἥφαιστος, μυγαλῇ δὲ Λητώ, καὶ ὡς ἕκαστος ἔτυχε τῶν ἄλλων θεῶν μετέβαλε τὴν ὄψιν. ἔπει&lt;τα&gt; δὲ Τυφῶνα Ζεὺς βάλλει κεραυνῷ· καιόμενος δὲ ὁ Τυφὼν ἔκρυψεν ἑαυτὸν καὶ ἠφάνισε τὴν φλόγα τῇ θαλάσσῃ.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Μεταμορφώσεων συναγωγή. (2017, Απρίλιος 21). Βικιθήκη. Ανακτήθηκε&#xA;07:38, Σεπτέμβριος 15, 2017 από https://el.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=%CE%9C%CE%B5%CF%84%CE%B1%CE%BC%CE%BF%CF%81%CF%86%CF%8E%CF%83%CE%B5%CF%89%CE%BD_%CF%83%CF%85%CE%BD%CE%B1%CE%B3%CF%89%CE%B3%CE%AE&amp;oldid=94661.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoninus_Liberalis&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicander" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21424" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2904" RevisionGUID="619ec7d2-6dfe-4c3f-94d2-a571dd916c02" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Wikipedia suggests the English name of the concept is imprecise and provides no evidence of a relationship with dreaming: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; The term is based on a rendition of the indigenous (Arandic) word alcheringa, used by the Aranda (Arunta, Arrernte) people of Central Australia, although it appears that it is based on a misunderstanding or mistranslation. William Stanner remarked: &quot;why the blackfellow thinks of 'dreaming' as the nearest equivalent in English is a puzzle&quot;. It has been argued that the word's meaning is closer to &quot;eternal, uncreated.&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Dreamtime. (2017, August 28). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved&#xA;08:40, August 31, 2017, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dreamtime&amp;oldid=797624857&#xA;&#xA;Do dreams play as significant a role in Dreamtime stories as the term suggests?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21425" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2907" RevisionGUID="21cd3ec1-b02e-4dde-b3b2-2f4fa916d813" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Herodotus mentions an Egyptian *Dodekatheon* in Book 2: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; The Egyptians, they went on to affirm, first brought into use the names of the twelve gods, which the Greeks adopted from them; and first erected altars, images, and temples to the gods; and also first engraved upon stone the figures of animals. In most of these cases they proved to me that what they said was true. And they told me that the first man who ruled over Egypt was Min, and that in his time all Egypt, except the Thebaic canton, was a marsh, none of the land below Lake Moeris then showing itself above the surface of the water. This is a distance of seven days' sail from the sea up the river. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Again, the Egyptians disclaim all knowledge of the names of Neptune and the Dioscuri, and do not include them in the number of their gods; but had they adopted the name of any god from the Greeks, these would have been the likeliest to obtain notice, since the Egyptians, as I am well convinced, practised navigation at that time, and the Greeks also were some of them mariners, so that they would have been more likely to know the names of these gods than that of Hercules. But the Egyptian Hercules is one of their ancient gods. Seventeen thousand years before the reign of Amasis, the twelve gods were, they affirm, produced from the eight: and of these twelve, Hercules is one. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Book 2. The History of Herodotus. Translated by George Rawlinson&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;The eight older gods are the [Ogdoad][1]. Who are the twelve younger ones?&#xA;  &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogdoad_(Egyptian)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21426" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2921" RevisionGUID="881ee220-8295-429c-8be4-9b53773ade19" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Wikipedia is very thin on details, this is all it's offering: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; He was a cannibal giant, ultimately defeated by the resourcefulness of the family of a hunter he had killed.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Thardid Jimbo. (2017, July 2). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 07:31, September 5, 2017, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Thardid_Jimbo&amp;oldid=788611181&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Why did the giant kill the hunter? How did the hunter's family defeat him?&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21427" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2923" RevisionGUID="c8608ba2-99c2-44c3-9dcc-207317ff7e62" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="**TL;DR** &#xA;&#xA;He kills the hunter just because he hates and likes eating humans. The sisters defeat him by luring him into a cave and then burning the entrance.&#xA;&#xA;---&#xA;&#xA;A version of the story can be found on *Myths and Legends of the Australian Aborigines*, by W. Ramsay Smith. Unfortunately, the page isn't available in [google books][1]:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; In the long long ago, in a cave in the land of Ge Rill Ghillie, there lived Thardid Jimbo, a great giant who stood ... (page 273)&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Mummulberry, availing himself of this fact (shrug) came unperceived almost alongside the kangaroo he was tracking, speared it in a vital spot, killed it instantly, and dragged it away. When he had gone quite a distance from the other kangaroos he found a convenient spot and made a fire and cooked his prey.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; In the meantime Thardid Jimbo, with rapid strides, covered a good distance, snatching up goannas and lizards that came in his way. Gazing intently upon the ground, he noticed the footprints of Mummulbery and the kangaroo. He followed the tracks, and saw the pole with the eaglehawk's wings tied to it. A little farther on he came to the place where the kangaroo had been killed. Still going onward, he no longer looked on the ground for footprints, because he could now smell burning wood and roasting kangaroo.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; He continued on his way guided by the smell. Suddenly he came upon Mummulberry feeding on the liver and heart of the kangaroo. He stepped back a few paces and stood, watching him with big, wicked, and cruel eyes. Presently Mummulbery looked up and saw before him a great big being. He immediately recognized the being as Thardid Jimbo, the enemy of man, of whom he had heard so much. Mummelbery quickly took up his spear and placed it on the *wommera* ready to battle. Thardid Jimbo saw this action. He knew too well that even his brute force was no match for the skill and intelligence of man. Remembering that there were scores of spear-marks and many wounds upon his body caused by boomerangs during a pitched battle between himself and man, he sat down about ten yards away from Mummulbery. He made a fire, and enjoyed a meal of half-cooked goannas and lizards. Mummulbery placed his spear on the ground and sat upon a log, watching Thardid Jimbo, who was eating his food in a disgusting manner. Mummulbery, filled with pity, cut a leg from the cooked kangaroo and offered it to Thardid Jimbo, who quickly accepted it. he ate greedily, and crunched the bones between his powerful jaws, and swallowed both flesh and bone. Now it was at this time Thardid looked at Mummulbery's neck as if something had attracted his attention. He said, &quot;I see a louse.&quot; Mummulbery, taken off his guard, asked him to remove it. Thardid Jimbo, seizing the oppurtunity, opened his mouth wide and bit Mummulbery in the neck, severing the head from the body. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Thardid Jimbo now threw the body of Mummulbery into the fire. After roasting it a while he took it from the fire and hung it on a tree. Then he thought he would follow Mummulbery's footprints to his house. The sister wives, hearing footsteps approaching, thought that their husband had returned. With faces smiling to greet him, they looked up and saw a sight that almost froze in their veins. For there, standing before him, was Thardid Jimbo, the enemy of mankind.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Thardid Jimbo said to the frightened girls, &quot;I have killed a man yonder, and have roasted his body and hung it up on a tree.&quot; They realized that the victim was their husband, and tears began to roll down their cheeks. He said, &quot;why do you look so sad? Why do you weep? I see tears in your eyes.&quot; &quot;They are caused,&quot; said the wives, &quot;by the smarting of the smoke.&quot; Thardid Jimbo said to them, &quot;I have come to take you to my home and make you my wives.&quot; The elder sister said, &quot;We have not tasted food, and we are faint with hunger. Grant us one favour, and then we will follow you. In yonder cave there lives a dog with his wife and family. We shall take it as a great favour to eat the flesh of puppies caught by your hands, O brave.&quot; &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Thardid Jimbo turned and beckoned that they would follow him and see him bring the prize. When they arrived at the cave Thardid Jimbo entered it, and presently came out carrying the dead body of the (female dog), with the warm blood trickling from a wound inflicted by a blow of his mighty arm. He threw the corpse down at their feet, entered the cave a second time, and returned with nine puppies, a month old. He said, &quot;Thy request is granted Fair One of the Dawn.&quot; Then the younger sister said pleadingly, &quot;Will you be my brave and bring me the dog?&quot; This so flattered Thardid Jimbo that he entered the cave a third time. The sister knew that the dog would not be easily captured, and that the pursuit would lead Thardid Jimbo to the far end of the cave, which was a very long one. This would give them an opportunity for action. After waiting for a few moments the younger sister called from the entrance of the cave, &quot;O my brave, I am faint with hunger. Bring me the dog. I am craving for the flesh of the dog.&quot; She kept shouting and calling to him to bring the fog to her while the elder sister was busily engaged in closing up the entrance to the cave with boughs, sticks, and logs. The younger sister then crawled through these and helped the elder one to carry more sticks and logs. Then they both sat down to make a fire after the usual fashion, by rubbing two sticks together. When the fire was alight they placed it among the wood and branches, which caught fire and burned quickly. The smoke and heat entered the cave, and when Thardid Jimbo felt the smoke smarting his eyes he ran to the entrance. There he found a blazing fire in front of him. He made one desperate leap to get over it, but he fell short, and dropped into the fire and was quickly consumed. &#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=NXSEpixcYukC&amp;printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21428" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2890" RevisionGUID="642637df-d1c8-4725-ac5b-ae361bce2f73" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="[Here's][1] a decent analysis of the passage.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/prophecy/seven-heads.htm&#xA;&#xA;&gt;It is these seven kings that we want to deal with in this paper. Basically, there are three different interpretations that could be considered about who these seven kings are:&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;**Seven Individual Kings**: This interpretation has a couple variations. Some try to identify seven individual emperors (a typical preterist view), and others seven individual popes.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;**Seven Kingdoms**: This interpretation typically identifies the first five kings either as being Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Pagan Rome, and Papal Rome; or as being Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;**Seven Forms of Roman Government**: This interpretation typically identifies the first five kings as being five of the following forms of government: a) kings, b) consuls, c) dictators, d) decemvirate, e) military tribunes with consular power, and f) triumvira&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21429" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3274" RevisionGUID="2e5993f5-5492-4d1f-817d-f5c7dd1f9c1e" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="&gt;Are there any myths or stories about dolphins being humans who chose to return to the sea?&#xA;&#xA;I've long suspected that dolphins are the real subjects of Mermaid mythology. And I wouldn't be surprised to stumble across some obscure myths following more specifically along that line of reasoning.&#xA;&#xA;Currently, I would just like to present this little tidbit gleaned from traditional [Cherokee Cosmogonic Myths (c1902, by American Ethnologist, James Mooney; p239-40)][1]:&#xA;&#xA;[![Cherokee Cosmogonic Myths, part of page 239, How the world was made][2]][2]&#xA;&#xA;&gt; IV – THE MYTHS&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; Cosmogonic Myths&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; I. How the world was made&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; The earth is a great island floating in a sea of water, and suspended at each of the four cardinal points by a cord hanging down from the sky vault, which is of solid rock.  When the world grows old and worn out, the people will die and the cords will break and let the earth sink down into the ocean, and all will be water again.  The Indians are afraid of this.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;When all was water, the animals were above in Gălûñʹlătĭ, beyond the arch; but it was very much crowded, and they were wanting more room. They wondered what was below the water, and at last […]&#xA;&#xA;The Cherokee believed that the whole earth was covered with water at one time. All animal life, including humans, lived up in the sky (Galunlati). Presumably then, they were disembodied spiritual entities (like souls, or ghosts), while inhabiting the air.&#xA;&#xA;It wasn't until after the &quot;Beaver's Grandchild&quot; (the little Water Beetle, aka Dayunisi) went below the water and brought up mud to build dams resembling islands and providing dry land on which the other mammals could walk, that they were able to leave the sky vault and live on the earth.&#xA;&#xA;Furthermore, they realized after settling from the sky onto land, that:&#xA;&#xA;[![Cherokee Cosmogonic Myths, part of page 240, How the world was made][3]][3]&#xA;&#xA;&gt; There is another world under this, and it is like ours in everything – animals, plants, and **people** – save that the seasons are different. The streams that come down from the mountains are the trails by which we reach this underworld, and the springs at their heads are the doorways by which we enter it, but to do this one must *fast* and *go to water* and *have one of the underground* ***people*** *for a guide*.  We know that the seasons in the underworld are different from ours, because the water in the springs is always warmer in winter and cooler in summer than the outer air.&#xA;&#xA;They describe a world of water, with streams for trails. Entrance to that underworld is made through [spring heads][4].&#xA;&#xA;But in order to visit that world, one is required to:&#xA;&#xA; - Fast (lose weight)&#xA; - Go to water (physically **get into the water**)&#xA; - Allow yourself to be guided by one of the underground **people** (follow them)&#xA;&#xA;They spoke about it as if it was at least fairly commonplace to desire to go there, if not succeed in doing so.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://ia800308.us.archive.org/10/items/cu31924104080076/cu31924104080076.pdf&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/DZs4C.png&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/L8noV.png&#xA;  [4]: https://www.tripadvisor.com/LocationPhotoDirectLink-g34175-d2548415-i39565879-Gemini_Springs_Park-DeBary_Florida.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21430" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2319" RevisionGUID="9baf4632-81c2-41f1-9ae9-d769ca1352a3" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In chapter 10 of the Saga of the Völsungs, Regin is trying to convince Sigurd that [Fafnir][1] is an average size dragon: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Young am I,&quot; says Sigurd, &quot;yet know I the fashion of this worm, and how that none durst go against him, so huge and evil is he.&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Regin said, &quot;Nay it is not so, the fashion and the growth of him is even as of other lingworms, and an over great tale men make of it; and even so would thy forefathers have deemed; but thou, though thou be of the kin of the Volsungs, shalt scarce have the heart and mind of those, who are told of as the first in all deeds of fame.&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Story of the Volsungs, translated by William Morris and Eirikr Magnusson&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;When the pair ride to slay the dragon, however, Sigurd realizes from Fafnir's tracks that the dragon is a tad larger than Regin lead him to believe. Regardless, Sigurd - with a little help from the ever-present Odin - slays Fafnir. &#xA;&#xA;I'm trying to get a basic understanding of the mechanics of dragon slaying in Norse mythology, and the comments on Fafnir's size piqued my interest. How large did the Norse imagine dragons to be? Do any of their legends give explicit information on the size of dragons?&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fafnir" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21431" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2307" RevisionGUID="c78a691b-4051-4289-b108-6525794f00d7" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="I think the primordial Titan Oceanus qualifies. &#xA;&#xA;The ocean might seem like an odd choice for a god of the cosmos, until you consider pre-classic era Greeks believed in a [flat earth][1] floating in an infinite ocean (personified by Oceanus). This infinite ocean was also where the heavenly bodies rose from and set into, according to Homer: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Homer, Iliad 5. 10 ff:   &#xA;&gt; &quot;The star of the waning summer [Seirios (Sirius) the Dog-Star] who beyond all stars rises bathed in Okeanos (the Ocean-Stream) to glitter with brilliance.&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Homer, Iliad 7. 422 ff:  &#xA;&gt; &quot;Now Helios of a new day struck on the ploughlands, rising out of the quiet water and the deep stream of Okeanos to climb the sky.&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Homer, Iliad 8. 485 ff:  &#xA;&gt; &quot;And now the shining light of the sun  was dipped in the Okeanos trailing black night across the grain-giving land.&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Homer, Iliad 18. 43 ff:  &#xA;&gt; &quot;[Hephaistos depicts the cosmos on the shield of Akhilleus:] He made the earth upon it, and the sky, and the sea's water, and the tireless sun, and the moon waxing into her fullness, and on it all the constellations that festoon the heavens, the Pleiades and the Hyades and the strength of Orion and the Bear, whom men give also the name of the Wagon, who turns about in a fixed place and looks at Orion and she alone is never plunged in the wash of Okeanos.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;The quotes are from here: http://www.theoi.com/Kosmos/Okeanos.html&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA; &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth#Ancient_Mediterranean" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21432" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1990" RevisionGUID="5200a260-0ff6-4cdb-9f85-35114ba53b2b" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In Homeric Hymn 22 (to Poseidon), we learn that Poseidon is lord of mount Helicon:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; I begin to sing about Poseidon, the great god, mover of the earth and fruitless sea, god of the deep who is also lord of Helicon and wide Aegae. A two-fold office the gods allotted you, O Shaker of the Earth,  to be a tamer of horses and a saviour of ships!&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: http://data.perseus.org/citations/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0013.tlg022.perseus-eng1:1&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Do we know how the god of the sea became associated with the mythologically important mountain?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21433" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1974" RevisionGUID="04305fc1-7b5f-4c45-ad87-82c2af6e80f3" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="It's true that a world tree does not appear in mainstream Greek mythology. &#xA;&#xA;However the concept wasn't completely unknown to the Greeks. In fact, a world tree - and more specifically a winged oak - does appear in the few surviving fragments of the cosmogony of Pherecydes of Syros (the *Pentemuchos*):   &#xA;&#xA;&gt; On the third day of the wedding, Zas (Zeus) fashioned a big and beautiful robe, and on it he embroidered Earth and Ogenos (Oceanus) and the mansions of Ogenos. When he had finished his task, he presented the robe to Chthonie (Earth) and said: 'Because I wish to marry you, I honour you with this robe. Rejoice and be my consort!' This they say was the first feast of unveiling, and hence arose the custom for both gods and men. And she responded as she received the robe from him: 'I take this as my honour, and henceforth I shall be called Ge...' The gods celebrated, feasting on ambrosia. And the Earth was like a winged oak, strong and mighty; its roots extended into the depths of Tartaros, its trunk was encircled by Ogenos, and its branches reached into Ouranos. The Earth flourished and Zas rejoiced.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Pherekydes of Syros, by Hermann S. Schibli&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21434" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1973" RevisionGUID="988dc597-520a-46f9-bcb7-158c8c7a37b2" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="I was reading up on the world tree motif, when I realized that apparently the concept is absent from Greek mythology:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Although the concept is absent from the Greek mythology, medieval Greek folk traditions and more recent folklore claim that the tree that holds the Earth is being sawed by Kallikantzaroi (commonly translated as goblins).&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=World_tree&amp;oldid=728500832#Other_cultures&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Is this true? Is such a widespread notion completely absent from Greek mythology?&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_tree&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21435" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1971" RevisionGUID="21c6c508-01b7-499a-9ef5-42c37a4a64a9" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="According to Wikipedia, different oral traditions refer to different numbers of orishas: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Yoruba tradition often says that there are 401 orishas, which is associated with a sacred number. Other sources suggest that the number is &quot;as many as you can think of, plus one more - an innumerable number&quot;. Different oral traditions refer to 400, 700, or 1,440 orisha.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Orisha&amp;oldid=737260447#Number](https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Orisha&amp;oldid=737260447#Number)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Why is 401 sacred to the Yoruba? What is the significance of the other numbers?&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21436" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1913" RevisionGUID="3149fcf5-2860-4c4e-a55a-e0032f0cc003" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="[The World Turtle (Wikipedia)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Turtle)&#xA;&#xA;This motif is very well known. Not a god per se, but close enough. (Btw: I think it represents a ship).&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;[Rainbow Serpent (Wikipedia)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_Serpent)&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The Rainbow Serpent or Rainbow Snake is a common deity, often a creator god, in the mythology and a common motif in the art of Aboriginal Australia.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;It is named for the obvious identification between the shape of a rainbow and the shape of a snake.&#xA;&#xA;But to be honest everything is an animal in Aboriginal mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21437" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1862" RevisionGUID="a9073ea4-69cd-41e8-a90b-2927b7f1f200" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Yes, surprisingly,&#xA;&#xA;&gt;The Moirai were independent, at the helm of necessity, directed fate, and watched that the fate assigned to every being by eternal laws might take its course without obstruction; and Zeus, as well as the other gods and man, had to submit to them.&#xA;&#xA;From [here][1]&#xA;&#xA;&gt;*Quintus Smyrnaeus,*&lt;br&gt;&#xA;&gt;&quot;To the Moirai (Moirae, Fates) the might of Zeus must bow; and by the Immortals' purpose all these things had come to pass, or by the Moirai's ordinance.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;We see this directly in a known myth,&#xA;&#xA;&gt;*Nonnus, Dionysiaca,*&lt;br&gt;&#xA;&gt;&quot;[Zeus swore he would grant Semele a wish, but she requested he appear before her in his full glory which would bring her destruction :] Father Zeus heard, and blamed the jealous Moirai (Moirae, Fates), and pitied Semele so soon to die . . . [Zeus tried to dissuade her] but he had no thought of fighting against the threads of Fate.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;But Zeus was the guide...&#xA;&#xA;&gt;*Pausanias, Description of Greece*&lt;br&gt;&#xA;&gt;&quot;[In the temple of Zeus at Megara :] Above the head of Zeus are the **Horai** (Horae, Seasons) and **Moirai** (Moirae, Fates), and all may see that he is the only god obeyed by Moira (Destiny).&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;*Pausanias, Description of Greece*&lt;br&gt;&#xA;&gt;&quot;[In the shrine of Despoine (Despoena) at Akakesion (Acacesium) in Arkadia :] On the first relief are wrought Moirai (Moirae) and Zeus surnamed Moiragetes (Guide of Fate).&quot;&#xA;&#xA;Zeus was the *Moiragetes*- the Guide. &#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Moirai.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21438" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1860" RevisionGUID="9eceb109-0624-4a2e-b8c1-dd592372a645" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Several reasons&#xA;===============&#xA;&#xA;The reasons for the associations of goats with Satan vary. Some are quite ancient, while others are of more recent vintage. &#xA;&#xA;The Parable of the Sheep and the Goats&#xA;--------------------------------------&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;Sheep are loyal. They follow the Son of God, metaphorically a shepherd. Goats, on the other hand, are disobedient  and difficult. &#xA;&#xA;&gt; When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him,&#xA;&gt; he will sit on his glorious throne.  All the nations will be&#xA;&gt; gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another&#xA;&gt; as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the&#xA;&gt; sheep on his right and the goats on his left.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;*NIV, Matthew 25:31-33* &lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;We see here that goats are being used as metaphor for sin in Matthew, very early in the development of the Christian church. In setting the sheep on his right hand, Jesus gives them a favored position. The goats, on the other hand....&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&gt;Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who&#xA;&gt; are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his&#xA;&gt; angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was&#xA;&gt; thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you&#xA;&gt; did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I&#xA;&gt; was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;*NIV, Matthew 25:41-43* &lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;The scapegoat&#xA;-------------&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Then Aaron shall offer the goat on which the lot for the LORD fell,&#xA;&gt; and make it a sin offering. 10&quot;But the goat on which the lot for the&#xA;&gt; scapegoat fell shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make&#xA;&gt; atonement upon it, to send it into the wilderness as the scapegoat.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;*NASB, Leviticus 16:10* &lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;It seems like that the idea of the goat as a repository for sin may have outweighed the knowledge that there was also a goat being sacrificed to  God. After all, presumably a calf or bull is one's richest sacrifice, so why not associate the goat with something else?&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;A lot of the *modern* associations of Satan with goats come from the idea of Baphomet, though. &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;## Baphomet ##&#xA;&#xA;Eliphas Levi, undoubtedly influenced by earlier associations of goats with witchcraft,  propounded the idea of a goat-headed deity, which he identified with the Baphomet purportedly worshiped by the Templars:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The symbolic head of the goat of Mendes is occasionally given to this&#xA;&gt; figure, and it is then the Baphomet of the Templars and the Word of&#xA;&gt; the Gnostics, bizarre images which became scarecrows for the vulgar&#xA;&gt; after affording food for reflection to sages – innocent hieroglyphs of&#xA;&gt; thought and faith which have been a pretext for the rage of&#xA;&gt; persecutions. How pitiable are men in their ignorance, but how they&#xA;&gt; would despise themselves if only they came to know!&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*Dogma et Rituel de la Haute Magie* (translated)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xA;&#xA;It is from Levi that we received the most stereotypical Satanic goat image, a semi-nude individual with male, female, and goat attributes. &#xA;&#xA;&gt;! ![Hive][1]&#xA;&#xA;These ideas have had a tremendous influence on modern perception of the devil as possessed of goat attributes. &#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/uIeQI.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21439" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1852" RevisionGUID="501400da-d18e-45f8-9597-7bede604e8c0" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="# TLDR: No. It was the one oath that was binding, but only used by heavenly beings.&#xA;&#xA;[In this link,][1] &#xA;&#xA;&gt;&quot;[Hypnos (Hypnus), the god of sleep, insists Hera seal her pledge to him by an oath on the Styx :] ‘Come then! Swear it to me on Styx' ineluctable water. With one hand take hold of the prospering earth, with the other take hold of the shining salt sea, so that all the undergods who gather about Kronos may be witnesses to us.’&quot;&#xA;&#xA;If Hera pledges to Hypnos, and Hypnos insists that it is not enough, then suggests a River Styx oath, then I would say that means it's not able to be taken back.&#xA;&#xA;Also, it was the ***strongest oath you could make!***&#xA;&#xA;&gt;&quot;And Leto sware the great oath of the gods : ‘Now hear this, Gaia (Gaea, Earth) and wide Ouranos (Uranus, Heaven) above, and dropping water of Styx, this is the stongest and most awful oath for the blessed gods.’&quot;&#xA;&#xA;Virgil says that it is the *one* dreadful and *binding* oath&#xA;&#xA;&gt;&quot;This I [Jove, Zeus] swear by the source of the inexorable river, Styx--the **one dreadful and binding oath** for us heaven-dwellers.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;Also note that it says *heaven dwellers*. This means that lesser mortals can't swear on the River Styx. That does not mean that they cannot witness it, as we see in the story of Semele, or Phaethon&#xA;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Semele&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;&quot;The girl [Semele]. unwittingly, asked of Jove [Zeus] a boon unnamed. ‘Choose what you will’, the god replied, `‘There's nothing I'll refuse; and should you doubt, the Power of rushing Stygia shall be my witness, the deity whom all gods hold in awe’ [and she asked him to appear before her in his full glory, a request which Zeus could not now refuse and which doomed the girl].&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Phaethon&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;&quot;[Helios (Helius, the Sun) swears an oath to his son Phaethon:] ‘Well you deserve to be my son’, he said, ‘Truly your mother named your lineage; and to dispel all doubt, ask what you will that I may satisfy your heart's desire; and that dark marsh [the river Styx] by which the gods make oath, though to my eyes unknown, shall seal my troth.’ He scarce had ended when the boy declared his wish - his father's chariot for one day with licence to control the soaring steeds . . . [Helios to Phaethon:] ‘By Stygia I swore and I shall not refuse, whate'er your choice: but oh! more wisely choose!’ So Sol [Helios] warned.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/PotamosStyx.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21440" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1786" RevisionGUID="e678a7f1-fede-4489-a6a3-477cae81af08" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="I gave an [answer][1] on this subject;&#xA;&#xA;They held the corners of the earth originally, before Atlas did. &#xA;&#xA;There are no primary sources from Theoi about his subject, which means, that, there are none.&#xA;&#xA;They give a little about its origin...&#xA;&gt;The cosmic story of five Titanes--four holding the corners of heaven--may be **Phoenician** in origin. &#xA;&#xA;The six Titans, 4 directions + 1 ocean + 1 time,&#xA;&#xA;&gt;Hyperion in the west, Iapetos (Iapetus) in the east, Koios (Coeus) in the north and Krios (Crius) in the south. The fifth Kronos (Cronus, Time) stood in the centre, and the sixth, Okeanos (Oceanus), circled the world in the form of the river Ocean.&#xA;&#xA;**But the fact remains, that, there are no sources for you.** :(&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/1226/967" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21441" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1776" RevisionGUID="aa4a66e5-a9c6-48ca-b478-7832d8a97046" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="A triple pantheon of goddesses governing fate appears in a variety of European (and perhaps other) mythologies. The Greek Moirai, the Roman Fatae, the Norse Norns. Often they are associated with weaving a tapestry of fate. For example, [of the Norns][1]:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Mightily wove they | the web of fate, &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;While Bralund's towns | were &#xA;&gt; trembling all; &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;And there the golden | threads they wove,&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;And in the &#xA;&gt; moon's hall | fast they made them.&#xA;&#xA;What is the earliest example of this group of goddesses? &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe19.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21442" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1770" RevisionGUID="b6ab37b8-4b38-4ab3-bf38-8be61dc55e98" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Australian Aboriginal myths in some regards are a little unique in the sense that  many of their creatures are derived from the traditions of Aboriginal Dreamtime.&#xA;&#xA;&gt;A word of caution: many of these creatures are derived from the traditions of Aboriginal Dreamtime.  To understand them, the reader must have a decent understanding of what the Aboriginal Dreamtime is.  The only problem is that it can be quite difficult to understand.  So here’s a quote from Peter Weir’s The Last Wave (1977) to help sum it up:&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;Aboriginals believe in two forms of time; two parallel streams of activity. One is the daily objective activity, the other is an infinite spiritual cycle called the ‘dreamtime’, more real than reality itself. Whatever happens in the dreamtime establishes the values, symbols, and laws of Aboriginal society. It was believed that some people of unusual spiritual powers had contact with the dreamtime.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;Basically, the Dreamtime is a sacred era of time in Australian Aboriginal mythology.  It is a kind of “time before time” wherein the universe was created, mankind was created, and the Creators laid down the rules for how humans should interact with themselves and their environments.  During the Dreamtime, the Ancestor Spirits came to earth and gave birth to the land, plants, animals, and humans.  Afterwards they turned into other objects, such as animals and geologic locations such as hills.  If you are still confused, the topic of the Aboriginal Dreamtime is further discussed and detailed here on the internet. - [Top 10 Australian Mythical Creatures.][1]&#xA;&#xA;This stated there are several sources of [Australian Aboriginal mythology][2] to be found on the internet as follows:&#xA;&#xA; - [Top 10 Australian Mythical Creatures][1]&#xA; - [Some Myths and Legends of the Australian Aborigines][3] by W. J. Thomas&#xA; - Australian Mythology from [Myths and Legends of the World Myths Encyclopedia][4] &#xA; - [Myths and Legends of the Australian Aborigines][5] by W. Ramsay Smith&#xA; - Aboriginal  Mythology - [A biography of the Australian continent][6] &#xA; - [Wikipedia][7] has a list of Australian Aboriginal mythological figures&#xA; - [ABORIGINAL AUSTRALIA ART &amp; CULTURE CENTRE][8] - ALICE SPRINGS &#xA; - The Dreaming from the [Australian Government][9]&#xA;&#xA;Hope this helps!&#xA; &#xA;   &#xA;&#xA; &#xA;&#xA; &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-australian-mythical-creatures.php&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Aboriginal_mythology&#xA;  [3]: http://www.sacred-texts.com/aus/mla/&#xA;  [4]: http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Ar-Be/Australian-Mythology.html&#xA;  [5]: https://www.amazon.com/Myths-Legends-Australian-Aborigines-Ramsay/dp/0486427099&#xA;  [6]: http://austhrutime.com/aboriginal_mythology.htm&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Australian_Aboriginal_mythological_figures&#xA;  [8]: http://aboriginalart.com.au/culture/dreamtime2.html&#xA;  [9]: http://www.australia.gov.au/about-australia/australian-story/dreaming" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21443" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1741" RevisionGUID="36513d69-bd7c-44e8-9adf-3bf8969cd3a4" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="# Lucifer is the Latin name of [Eôsphoros][1], who was paired up with Vesper.&#xA;&#xA;Eôsphoros means dawn-bringer. They were [Astra Planeta][1], gods of the five planets.&#xA;&#xA;&gt;EOSPHOROS and HESPEROS were the gods of the star (astron planeta) Venus.&#xA;&#xA;But remember that it is present day - they did not call the planet they saw in the sky Aphrodite.&#xA;&#xA;So, it is, in fact, Lucifer.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/AsterEosphoros.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21444" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1727" RevisionGUID="c9ed07de-239e-4330-bd12-9a28de7e8f1f" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="# [Probably not][1].&#xA;&#xA;According to Apollodorus,&#xA;&#xA;&gt;[VI. ZEUS CONFIRMS THE DIVINE PRIVILEGES OF HERMES.]&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;And Zeus made Hermes his personal herald and messenger of the gods beneath the earth.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;It says that Zeus had to make him into his personal herald, and messenger, but there's no way that &#xA;&#xA;&gt;[II. HERMES STEALS APOLLO'S CATTLE.]&#xA;Though he was laid out in swaddling-clothes with her winnowing-basket for a cradle, he escaped and made his way to Pieria, where he stole some cattle that Apollon was tending. To keep from being discovered by the tracks, he put boots on their feet and led them to Pylos. He hid them in a grotto, except for two which he sacrificed, pinning up their hides on rocks, boiling some of the meat for his meal and burning the rest.&#xA;&#xA;Hermes, as a mortal baby, is able to think so in depth, and walk all the way to Pieria, Pylos, and back. Somehow.&#xA;&#xA;[Map][2]&#xA;&#xA;According to the Homeric Hymns,&#xA;&#xA;&gt;[H]e lay not long waiting in his *holy* cradle&#xA;&#xA;A **holy** cradle? Hmm. Either I'll have to add that to holy cow, and gosh darn, or this is a clear sign that Hermes is born as a god.&#xA;&#xA;And for Philostratus,&#xA;&#xA;&gt;Very delightful are the thefts of *the god*; for the story is that Hermes, when Maia bore him, loved thievery and was skilled in it[.]&#xA;&#xA;He sure seems like a god now! This is now wide and clear.&#xA;&#xA;So, in conclusion, Probably not.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/HermesMyths.html#Theft1&#xA;  [2]: https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Pieria,+Greece/Pilos,+Greece/@38.5757655,20.3170478,7z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m13!4m12!1m5!1m1!1s0x1357e3c7302b5ad3:0x57066ba501491675!2m2!1d22.4768287!2d40.2669099!1m5!1m1!1s0x136172c4b04bba2d:0x500bd2ce2ba47c0!2m2!1d21.6963472!2d36.9130756" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21445" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1719" RevisionGUID="6f26d325-493b-477c-97d3-88a40092f8bd" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Theoi seems to have a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.mythindex.com/greek-mythology/O/Oedipus.html&quot;&gt;listing of variants&lt;/a&gt;:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; From this point traditions again differ, for according to some, Oedipus in his blindness was expelled from Thebes by his sons and brother-in-law, Creon, who undertook the government, and he was guided and accompanied by Antigone in his exile to Attica; but according to others he was imprisoned by his sons at Thebes, in order that his disgrace might remain concealed from the eyes of the world. The father now cursed his sons, who agreed to rule over Thebes alternately, but became involved in a dispute, in consequence of which they fought in single combat, and slew each other. Hereupon Creon succeeded to the throne, and expelled Oedipus. After long wanderings Oedipus arrived in the grove of the Eumenides, near Colonus, in Attica; he was there honoured by Theseus in his misfortune, and, according to an oracle, the Eumenides removed him from the earth, and no one was allowed to approach his tomb (Soph. Oed. Col. 1661, &amp;c.; Eurip. Phoen. init.; Apollod. iii. 5. § 9; Diod. iv. 64; Hygin. Fab. 67). &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;According to Homer, Oedipus, tormented by the Erinnyes of his mother, continued to reign at Thebes after her death; he fell in battle, and was honoured at Thebes with funeral solemnities (Od. xi. 270, &amp;c., Il. xxiii. 679). &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;Some traditions mention Eurygeneia as the mother of the four children of Oedipus above-mentioned (Paus. ix. 5. § 5; Schol. ad Eurip. Phoen. 63), and previous to his connection with her, he is said to have been the father of Phrastor and Laonytus by Iocaste, and to have in the end married Astymedusa, a daughter of Sthenelus (Schol. ad Eurip. l. c.). &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;Oedipus himself is sometimes called a son of Laius by Eurycleia, and is said to have been thrown in a chest into the sea when yet an infant, to have been carried by the waves to the coast of Sicyon, to have been received by Polybus, and afterwards to have been blinded by him (Schol. ad Eur. Phoen. 13, 26). His tomb was shown at Athens, where he also had an heroum. (Paus. i. 28. § 7, 30, in fin.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21446" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1996" RevisionGUID="aa69bf77-c1e1-4e4e-8aa4-381d1a5fb614" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="[Apollo is Apollo.][1]&#xA;&#xA;So, are they the exact same in qualities in both Roman and Greek mythology?&#xA;&#xA;If not, what qualities did they share?&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/1685/967" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21447" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1710" RevisionGUID="a3d8eaec-6000-465e-b3e9-188904d6f839" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="# Greek at least, which is my &quot;expertise&quot;,&#xA;&#xA;I guess the [Ichthyocentuars][1] counts (have fun pronouncing that one)&#xA;&#xA;&gt;a pair of centaurine sea-gods with the upper bodies of men, the lower fore-parts of horses, ending in the serpentine tails of fish. Their brows were adorned with a pair of lobster-claw horns. The two marine Kentauroi (Centaurs) were named Bythos (Sea-Depths) and Aphros (Sea-Foam)... and ... were probably regarded as wise teachers.&#xA;&#xA;They were fish-centaurs, and are part human, and are definitely hybrids. Don't know about the crossing part...&#xA;&#xA;[Glaucus][2], who is a surprise,&#xA;&#xA;&gt;He was described as a blue-skinned merman, with copper-green hair and a serpentine fish-tail in place of legs.&#xA;&#xA;A kind-of-merman, but not exactly. He's one of a kind. Human, and partly water-snake-fish.&#xA;&#xA;[Telekines][3], which are sea-dogs... (don't know if they count)&#xA;&#xA;&gt;four mysterious magician-smiths and sea daimones native to the islands of Keos and Rhodes. They invented the art of metal-working and were said to have crafted the sickle Kronos used to castrate his father Ouranos and later a magical trident for Poseidon which the god used to lever mountains into the sea and form the islands. Their malignant use of magic later angered Zeus, who cast them beneath the sea or into the very depths of Tartaros. These strange Sea Daimones were sometimes described with the heads of dogs and fish-flippers for hands.&#xA;&#xA;I'm sure there are more, so feel free to edit. (make sure it's greek.)&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Ikhthyokentauroi.html&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Glaukos.html&#xA;  [3]: http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Telkhines.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21448" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1623" RevisionGUID="370e7a02-5ca1-4a4d-9908-8ebd07721221" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="A lot.&#xA;&#xA;[Theoi][1] has a nice family tree-&#xA;&#xA;[![fam tree][2]][2]&#xA;&#xA;And so you count, and get a total of...&#xA;&#xA;# 3142 gods/godesses&#xA;&#xA;If you count the Potami, Naiads, and Astriaos as 1 god/goddess, and including Titans as gods.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Tree0Latin.html&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/1SqKJ.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21449" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1612" RevisionGUID="afcc1800-5bdd-4b34-b436-af4f927869df" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="As writing an answer to my own question, I came across this,&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Plutarch, Life of Solon 26. 1 (trans. Perrin) (Greek historian C1st - C2nd A.D.) :&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;&quot;He [Solon] also spent some time in studies with Psenophis of Heliopolis [in Egypt] and Sonkhis (Sonchis) of Sais, who were very learned priests. From these, as Plato says, he heard the story of the lost Atlantis, and tried to introduce it in a poetical form to the Greeks.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;What is the connection of the Greek and Egyptian myths about Atlantis?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21450" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1606" RevisionGUID="57475ec4-0b55-41f4-ac49-c84829d2a066" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In Book 4 of the Odyssey, Menelaus mentions a few details of his voyage home, during his conversation with Telemachus: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; &quot;I was trying to come on here, but the gods detained me in Egypt, for my hecatombs had not given them full satisfaction, and the gods are very strict about having their dues. Now off Egypt, about as far as a ship can sail in a day with a good stiff breeze behind her, there is an island called Pharos- it has a good harbour from which vessels can get out into open sea when they have taken in water- and the gods becalmed me twenty days without so much as a breath of fair wind to help me forward. We should have run clean out of provisions and my men would have starved, if a goddess had not taken pity upon me and saved me in the person of Idothea, daughter to Proteus, the old man of the sea, for she had taken a great fancy to me. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Odyssey, Translated by Samuel Butler][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;If there was an epic focused solely on Menelaus, I'm afraid it didn't survive. His reunion with Helen, however, and the couple's escape from Egypt is chronicled in Euripides' drama [Helen][2]. The play builds upon the version of events told by Herodotus (Histories, Book 2), in which the real Helen was in Egypt during the entire Trojan War.&#xA;&#xA;Here's an excerpt from [E. P. Coleridge's translation][3]: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; MENELAUS  &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; What can I think or say? For after my previous troubles, this is a fresh piece of ill-luck I hear, if, indeed, after recovering my wife from Troy and bringing her hither, and putting her for safety in the cave, I am then to find another woman living here with the same name as my wife. She called her the begotten child of Zeus. Can there be a man that hath the name of Zeus by the banks of Nile? The Zeus of heaven is only one, at any rate. Where is there a Sparta in the world save where Eurotas glides between his reedy banks? The name of Tyndareus is the name of one alone. Is there any land of the same name as Lacedaemon or Troy? I know not what to say; for naturally there are many in the wide world that have the same names, cities and women too; there is nothing, then, to marvel at. Nor yet again will I fly from the alarm a servant raises; for there is none so cruel of heart as to refuse me food when once he hears my name. All have heard of Ilium's burning, and I, that set it ablaze, am famous now throughout the world, I, Menelaus. I therefore wait the master of this house. There are two issues I must watch; if he prove somewhat stern of heart, I will to my wreck and there conceal myself; but if he show any sign of pity, I will ask for help in this my present strait. This is the crowning woe in all my misery, to beg the means of life from other princes, prince though I be myself; still needs must I. Yea, this is no saying of mine, but a word of wisdom, &quot;Naught in might exceedeth dread necessity.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/odyssey.4.iv.html&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_(play)&#xA;  [3]: http://classics.mit.edu/Euripides/helen.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21451" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1594" RevisionGUID="7a96ec68-ed2a-4c87-828d-d71b3e811231" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="After reading and answering [this question][1], it caused me to believe that in Greek mythology, there were a lot of nymphs. They were nature spirits, and so, there are a lot of *types* of nymphs.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Cloud - Nephelai (Cloud-Nymphs)&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Grass - Leimonides (Pasture Nymphs)&lt;sub&gt;(Close enough to grass)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Flower - Anthousai (Flower Nymphs)&#xA;&#xA;All from [here][2].&#xA;&#xA;So what other nymphs were there?&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1544/was-charybdis-always-a-monster&#xA;  [2]: http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/Okeanides.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21452" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1581" RevisionGUID="bf1027fb-b973-4ee6-84c4-053690bc843d" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Well, your telling is pretty distorted, but there is a story of Odin's brothers taking possession of his wife, Frigg.  From the [Ynglinga Saga](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/heim/02ynglga.htm), Chapter 3:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Odin had two brothers, the one called Ve, the other Vilje, and  &#xA;they governed the kingdom when he was absent.  It happened once  &#xA;when Odin had gone to a great distance, and had been so long away  &#xA;that the people Of Asia doubted if he would ever return home,  &#xA;that his two brothers took it upon themselves to divide his  &#xA;estate; but both of them took his wife Frigg to themselves.  Odin  &#xA;soon after returned home, and took his wife back.&#xA;&#xA;Note, however, that no statement is made villifying Ve and Vilje, accusing them of violating Frigg or of them cuckolding Odin, nor is any mention made of reprisals for their transgressions.  Odin simply returns, and takes his wife back.&#xA;&#xA;Rather than a story of *bad* behavior, this seems to be a model for *right* behavior.  If a man is lost, it may fall to their brother to take possession of their widow, as their own wife or mistress, and see to her care.  &#xA;&#xA;&gt; In fact, sometimes immediately after the death of their husbands, Icelandic women became the wives of relatives-in-law through inheritance;  this came about, as a rule, through a man's falling heir to a deceased brother's widow along with his movable goods and this land.  And even at present day in Scandinavia it is very customary for a man to marry the wife or betrothed of his brother, in the event of the latter's death.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; [Social Scandinavia in the Viking Age](https://books.google.com/books?id=OJw2AAAAMAAJ&amp;pg=PA104&amp;lpg=PA104#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false) by Mary Wilhelmine Williams, page 104&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;So, to answer the title question directly &quot;Did Frigg cheat?&quot;  *No*, she did not." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21453" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1497" RevisionGUID="2e47c03a-bddd-4112-bf73-7cfe47df1abd" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Athena never did.&#xA;&#xA;&gt;There was also an account, stating that Prometheus had created men out of earth and water, at the very beginning of the human race, or after the flood of Deucalion, when Zeus is said to have ordered him and Athena to make men out of the mud, and the winds to breathe life into them (Apollod. i. 7. § 1; Ov. Met. i. 81; Etym. Mag. s. v. Promêtheus). &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;[Theoi][1]&#xA;&#xA;So she was the one creating them with Prometheus, not breathing life into them.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanPrometheus.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21454" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1449" RevisionGUID="095d96ab-7180-4042-b359-14bfcf37ba3a" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="There are two ways to answer this: the reputation according to the highly-romanticised ROTK, and the historical person. According to fiction, he is **completely without achievement yet his greatness speaks for itself** once you meet him. In reality, he was a **highly intelligent, well-connected, but inexperienced young man, with the reputation to match**, i.e. not much.&#xA;&#xA;## ROTK&#xA;&#xA;It is true that before serving Liu Bei, Zhuge Liang was completely inexperienced, at least as a strategist. Actually, the novel deliberately leaves the question of how he earned his reputation unanswered. His reputation, at least to Liu, stemmed solely from recommendation from very wise and talented men: [Sima Hui][1], [Xu Shu][2] and other peers, all who insisted that Zhuge was even greater than they. You, like Liu, are meant to see Zhuge as a great mystery, and be intrigued: just who is this man, who has no accomplishments at all, and yet is highly regarded by none other than Xu Shu, the man who read Cao Ren like a book?&#xA;&#xA;The novel teases at all this during the [*three visits to the thatched cottage*][3] sequence, one of the best written parts and the [midpoint][4] of the Liu Bei arc. Here the mystery and intrigue gets whipped up into a frenzy:&#xA;&#xA;- Sima Hui tells how Zhuge believes that Xu Shu and his friends may be capable enough to become [commandery][5] administrators, but he is as capable as [Guan Zhong][6] and [Yue Yi][7]. [Guan Yu][8] is incredulous, but Sima believes that Zhuge is even greater, comparable to [Jiang Ziya][9] and [Zhang Liang][10]. Those two men are widely considered among the greatest strategists in Chinese history, comparable to Alexander the Great or Hannibal.&#xA;&#xA;  &gt; 時雲長在側曰：「某聞管仲、樂毅，乃春秋戰國名人，功蓋寰宇。孔明自比此二人，毋乃太過？」徽笑曰：「以吾觀之，不當比此二人。我欲另以二人比之。」雲長問那二人。徽曰：「可比興周八百年之姜子牙，旺漢四百年之張子房也。」&#xA;&#xA;- On their first trip, the [three brothers][11] encounter simple farmers singing something composed by Zhuge, whose short lyrics basically described the meaning of life. This establishes him as a philosopher of incomparable wisdom.&#xA;&#xA;  &gt; 次日，玄德同關、張并從人等來隆中，遙望山畔數人，荷鋤耕於田間，而作歌曰：&#xA;  &gt;&#xA;  &gt; 蒼天如圓蓋，陸地似棋局。&#xA;世人黑白分，往來爭榮辱。&#xA;榮者自安安，辱者定碌碌。&#xA;南陽有隱居，高眠臥不足。&#xA;&#xA;- When they reach his residence, it is described as having the serenity of heaven on earth.&#xA;&#xA;  &gt; 不數里，遙望臥龍岡，果然清景異常。&#xA;&#xA;- During the trips, Liu repeatedly encounters people - friends, family of Zhuge - singing or reciting poems of great wisdom and insight, and he mistakes them all for Zhuge at first. Zhuge is so awesome that anyone related to him becomes wise also.&#xA;&#xA;- When they finally catch Zhuge present, he is sleeping. When he finally wakes, he composes a poem on the spot. He's just that good.&#xA;&#xA;  &gt; 又立了一個時辰，孔明纔醒，口吟詩曰：&#xA;  &gt;&#xA;  &gt; 大夢誰先覺？&#xA;平生我自知。&#xA;草堂春睡足，&#xA;窗外日遲遲。&#xA;&#xA;Later when Zhuge presents his [Longzhong Plan][12], his reputation is sealed. We, like Liu, are completely certain that Zhuge is the bee's knees. [Bowang][13] was just a demonstration to convince dunces like Guan and Zhang.&#xA;&#xA;## In Reality&#xA;&#xA;Zhuge had powerful connections and wasn't some outsider as the novel depicts. However his own reputation wasn't that great; only his closest friends recognised his talent.&#xA;&#xA;- According to his biography in [*Records of the Three Kingdoms*][14], he was self-confident, and **compared himself to Guan Zhong and Yue Yi, but this opinion was not widely shared**. In fact, *only his friends* (such as Xu Shu) agreed. &#xA;&#xA;  &gt; 每自比於管仲、樂毅，時人莫之許也。惟博陵崔州平、潁川徐庶元直與亮友善，謂為信然。&#xA;&#xA;- Despite his then-current occupation as farmer, he was well-connected and was previously being groomed to a life as public official. Unlike the novel which depicts him as a near-mythical hermit-farmer unknown to the outside world, he would have been **well-known at least among the [Jing Province][15] gentry**. He comes from a family of public officials: **one of his ancestors was a Colonel Director of Retainers** `漢司隸校尉諸葛豐後也。`. **His father was vice-administrator of a commandery** `父圭，字君貢，漢末為太山郡丞。`. **His brother [Zhuge Jin][16] was already a high-ranking and trusted official within the [Wu][17] court**.&#xA;&#xA;- He's also **related to [Liu Biao][18] by marriage**. It's a bit indirect though, and it goes like this: his father in law, [Huang Chengyan][19], married the elder daughter of Cai Feng, who also had a son (the influential general [Cai Mao][20]) and a daughter who married Liu Biao ([Lady Cai][21]). Zhuge can call Liu Biao &quot;uncle in law&quot;.&#xA;&#xA;- His uncle/foster father was quite well connected: **he was a direct subordinate to Liu Biao** `玄素與荊州牧劉表有舊，往依之。`; **he was a commandery administrator under [Yuan Shu][22]**, and even managed to get Zhuge a (minor) official position `從父玄為袁術所署豫章太守，玄將亮及亮弟均之官`.&#xA;&#xA;## Why would Liu personally visit Zhuge?&#xA;&#xA;This leaves very interesting questions about the *three visits*. Given Zhuge's reputation, which wasn't that great, why would a famous warlord like Liu personally attempt to visit him in a remote village, *thrice*?&#xA;&#xA;**Here the historical records *contradict*.** Both *Records of the Three Kingdoms*, the most reliable, and (the first) [*Chu Shi Biao*][23], authored by Zhuge himself, say that the three visits did happen. However according to [*Brief Account of Wei*][24] and *Jiuzhou Chunqiu*, **it was the other way around: Zhuge visited Liu.**&#xA;&#xA;According to this interesting account, Zhuge visited Liu but was ignored due to his youth. When all the other guests left, Zhuge talked to Liu and presented a plan to conscript and tax the unregistered war refugees. This greatly impressed Liu and Zhuge was treated as an honoured guest.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; **亮乃北行見備**，備與亮非舊，又以其年少，以諸生意待之。坐集既畢，眾賓皆去，而亮獨留，備亦不問其所欲言。備性好結毦，時適有人以髦牛尾與備者，備因手自結之。亮乃進曰：「明將軍當復有遠志，但結毦而已邪！」備知亮非常人也，乃投毦而答曰：「是何言與！我聊以忘憂耳。」亮遂言曰：「將軍度劉鎮南孰與曹公邪？」備曰：「不及。」亮又曰：「將軍自度何如也？」備曰：「亦不如。」曰：「今皆不及，而將軍之眾不過數千人，以此待敵，得無非計乎！」備曰：「我亦愁之，當若之何？」亮曰：「今荊州非少人也，而著籍者寡，平居發調，則人心不悅；可語鎮南，令國中凡有游戶，皆使自實，因錄以益眾可也。」備從其計，故眾遂強。**備由此知亮有英略，乃以上客禮之。**&#xA;&#xA;There's a minority opinion that this account is truthful, and the *three visits* didn't happen. **There's another, purely conjectural opinion that *both* are truthful**; perhaps Zhuge visited Liu first, earned his trust, then Liu later visited Zhuge where they discussed the Longzhong Plan.&#xA;&#xA;The mainstream opinion is that *Records* and *Chu Shi Biao* are reliable. But there is doubt as to exactly how the *three visits* worked out. *Records* is extremely brief: &quot;[Liu] visited thrice, and met [with Zhuge].&quot; `凡三往，乃見。` [*Chu Shi Biao* is a bit more detailed][25]: &quot;[Liu] lowered himself and visited me thrice in the thatched cottage, where he consulted me on the affairs of our time.&quot; `先帝不以臣卑鄙，猥自枉屈，三顧臣於草廬之中，諮臣以當世之事` The way *Chu Shi Biao* depicts it suggests an alternate version of the *three visits*: **Liu visited and met Zhuge thrice**. This is more believable, as visiting thrice but only meeting on the third occasion would have required uncommon patience (or desperation) on Liu's part. The way *Records* is written, it could be interpreted either way. One other thing: [*thrice* in classical Chinese also has the meaning of *many times*][26]. That is, Liu visited Zhuge repeatedly, over a long time span, where they slowly built up trust in each other, and formed the Longzhong Plan. This version is much more plausible than the novel's, where Zhuge presents the very detailed Longzhong Plan *on his first meeting with Liu*.&#xA;&#xA;But let's say we take the mainstream position that it was Liu who first visited Zhuge, and whatever happened - whether Liu visited thrice, or many times, and whether he met Zhuge on all occasions or only after three visits - we still need to explain **why Liu would bother with the first visit.** Why didn't he summon for Zhuge, and why would someone of Liu's stature *personally* visit Zhuge, someone with very little renown? Was Liu just a really humble guy, as Zhuge writes in *Chu Shi Biao*?&#xA;&#xA;- **Zhuge was highly recommended by Xu Shu and Sima Hui.** This part of the novel is true. According to *Xiangyang Ji*, Sima Hui singled out Zhuge and [Pang Tong][27] as *the* two advisors to recruit from the region, describing them as *crouching dragon* and *young phoenix* respectively.&#xA;&#xA;  &gt; 德操曰：「儒生俗士，豈識時務？識時務者在乎俊傑。此間自有伏龍、鳳雛。」備問為誰，曰：「諸葛孔明、龐士元也。」&#xA;&#xA;- According to *Records*, Xu Shu was already highly trusted by Liu, and not only recommended Zhuge, calling him a *crouching dragon*, but said that **Liu should personally visit him.**&#xA;&#xA;  &gt; 徐庶見先主，先主器之，謂先主曰：「諸葛孔明者，臥龍也，將軍豈願見之乎？」先主曰：「君與俱來。」庶曰：「此人可就見，不可屈致也。將軍宜枉駕顧之。」&#xA;&#xA;  Whether *crouching dragon* was a well-known alias of Zhuge's, or (as the novel asserts) says that Zhuge was a peerless intellect, or simply used as an exaggeration by Sima and Xu is up to interpretation. It's also unclear how Xu Shu managed to convince Liu; maybe he was very persuasive, or trusted. We also don't know why Liu must visit personally, and not simply summon Zhuge; maybe Xu Shu said something like &quot;you have to go and see for yourself&quot;.&#xA;&#xA;- **He was handsome and tall.** In those days looking good was considered a virtue in and of itself. Even *Records* bothers to mention that he is 8 [*chi*][28] tall (basically 6 foot) `身長八尺`. There's an interesting anecdote of Cao Cao disguising one of his more handsome officials as himself, and himself as a guard, when meeting a Hun envoy because he was ashamed of being short and ugly.&#xA;&#xA;- Finally, consider Liu's position: although famous, **he was extremely weak and desperate**. At this point he had been taking refuge under Liu Biao for years, **with barely a few thousand troops under his command.**&#xA;&#xA;  &gt; 曰：「今皆不及，而將軍之眾不過數千人，以此待敵，得無非計乎！」&#xA;&#xA;  His position is precarious; he has no land of his own, administering the tiny town of [Xinye][29], sandwiched between a powerful enemy ([Cao Cao][30]) and his lord Liu Biao, unable to expand and unable to strengthen lest he becomes a threat to Liu Biao. He desperately needs wise men to form and execute a plan, without which he says &quot;what can I do?&quot;&#xA;&#xA;  &gt; 備曰：「我亦愁之，當若之何？」&#xA;&#xA;  Under such circumstances, it may have been easy for people like Xu Shu to convince him to meet with Zhuge personally.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sima_Hui&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xu_Shu&#xA;  [3]: https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E4%B8%89%E5%9C%8B%E6%BC%94%E7%BE%A9/%E7%AC%AC037%E5%9B%9E&#xA;  [4]: http://letsschmooze.blogspot.com.au/2010/11/act-two-part-two-midpoint.html&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commandery_(China)&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guan_Zhong&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yue_Yi&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guan_Yu&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiang_Ziya&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang_Liang_(Western_Han)&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_the_Peach_Garden&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longzhong_Plan&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bowang&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Records_of_the_Three_Kingdoms&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingzhou_(ancient_China)&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuge_Jin&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Wu&#xA;  [18]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Biao&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huang_Chengyan&#xA;  [20]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cai_Mao&#xA;  [21]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Cai_(Liu_Biao%27s_wife)&#xA;  [22]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuan_Shu&#xA;  [23]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chu_Shi_Biao&#xA;  [24]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weil%C3%BCe&#xA;  [25]: https://zh.wikisource.org/zh-hant/%E5%89%8D%E5%87%BA%E5%B8%AB%E8%A1%A8&#xA;  [26]: http://www.zdic.net/z/14/js/4E09.htm&#xA;  [27]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pang_Tong&#xA;  [28]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi_(unit)&#xA;  [29]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinye_County&#xA;  [30]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cao_Cao" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21455" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1401" RevisionGUID="3b920176-4f9c-44b2-88c4-d5a4e3541ce7" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="It seems that every time Poseidon was in contest with another Olympian, he came up short. First, he lost dominion over the heavens to Zeus:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; But when Zeus was full-grown, he took Metis, daughter of Ocean, to help him, and she gave Cronus a drug to swallow, which forced him to disgorge first the stone and then the children whom he had swallowed, and with their aid Zeus waged the war against Cronus and the Titans. They fought for ten years, and Earth prophesied victory to Zeus if he should have as allies those who had been hurled down to Tartarus. So he slew their jailoress Campe, and loosed their bonds. And the Cyclopes then gave Zeus thunder and lightning and a thunderbolt, and on Pluto they bestowed a helmet and on Poseidon a trident. Armed with these weapons the gods overcame the Titans, shut them up in Tartarus, and appointed the Hundred-handers their guards; but they themselves cast lots for the sovereignty, and to Zeus was allotted the dominion of the sky, to Poseidon the dominion of the sea, and to Pluto the dominion in Hades.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; Source: [Apollodorus, Library, 1.2.1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D2%3Asection%3D1) &lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Then he lost the contest for Athens to Athena:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Cecrops, a son of the soil, with a body compounded of man and serpent, was the first king of Attica, and the country which was formerly called Acte he named Cecropia after himself. In his time, they say, the gods resolved to take possession of cities in which each of them should receive his own peculiar worship. So Poseidon was the first that came to Attica, and with a blow of his trident on the middle of the acropolis, he produced a sea which they now call Erechtheis. After him came Athena, and, having called on Cecrops to witness her act of taking possession, she planted an olive tree, which is still shown in the Pandrosium. But when the two strove for possession of the country, Zeus parted them and appointed arbiters, not, as some have affirmed, Cecrops and Cranaus, nor yet Erysichthon, but the twelve gods. And in accordance with their verdict the country was adjudged to Athena, because Cecrops bore witness that she had been the first to plant the olive. Athena, therefore, called the city Athens after herself, and Poseidon in hot anger flooded the Thriasian plain and laid Attica under the sea.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Apollodorus, Library, 3.14.1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0548.tlg001.perseus-eng1:3.14.1)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;And Athens wasn't even the only city the God of the Sea failed to get a hold of, his claim for Argos was denied by Hera: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Here is a sanctuary of Poseidon, surnamed Prosclystius (Flooder), for they say that Poseidon inundated the greater part of the country because Inachus and his assessors decided that the land belonged to Hera and not to him. Now it was Hera who induced Poseidon to send the sea back, but the Argives made a sanctuary to Poseidon Prosclystius at the spot where the tide ebbed.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Pausanias, Description of Greece, 2.22.4](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0525.tlg001.perseus-eng1:2.22.4)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Furthermore, the Earth Shaker didn't have much luck in a courtroom either: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Cecrops married Agraulus, daughter of Actaeus, and had a son Erysichthon, who departed this life childless; and Cecrops had daughters, Agraulus, Herse, and Pandrosus. Agraulus had a daughter Alcippe by Ares. In attempting to violate Alcippe, Halirrhothius, son of Poseidon and a nymph Euryte, was detected and killed by Ares. Impeached by Poseidon, Ares was tried in the Areopagus before the twelve gods, and was acquitted.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Source: [Apollodorus, Library, 3.14.2](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0548.tlg001.perseus-eng1:3.14.2)&#xA;&#xA;Last but not least, Poseidon was asked to put aside his anger and spare Odysseus' life for blinding his son Polyphemus: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Then Zeus, the cloud-gatherer, answered her and said: “My child, what a word has escaped the barrier of thy teeth? How should I, then, forget godlike Odysseus, who is beyond all mortals in wisdom, and beyond all has paid sacrifice to the immortal gods, who hold broad heaven? Nay, it is Poseidon, the earth-enfolder, who is ever filled with stubborn wrath because of the Cyclops, whom Odysseus blinded of his eye— even the godlike Polyphemus, whose might is greatest among all the Cyclopes; and the nymph Thoosa bore him, daughter of Phorcys who rules over the unresting sea; for in the hollow caves she lay with Poseidon. From that time forth Poseidon, the earth-shaker, does not indeed slay Odysseus, but makes him a wanderer from his native land. But come, let us who are here all take thought of his return, that he may come home; and Poseidon will let go his anger, for he will in no wise be able, against all the immortal gods and in their despite, to contend alone.”&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Homer, Odyssey, Book 1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0012.tlg002.perseus-eng1:1.44-1.79)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA; &#xA;It seems like the poor chap was unable to catch a break. Is this really the case? Has Poseidon ever won a dispute with another Olympian?&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21456" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1395" RevisionGUID="37cb1ecd-2580-4f6c-92c2-d0ac6218a97f" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The Borjgali is a Georgian solar symbol:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Borjgali (Georgian: ბორჯღალი; also Borjgala or Borjgalo) is a Georgian symbol of the Sun with seven rotating wings over the Christian Tree of Life and is related to the Mesopotamian symbols of eternity. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; ![Borjgali](https://i.stack.imgur.com/7laKe.png)&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Borjgali, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Borjgali&amp;oldid=676638846 (last visited Jan. 30, 2016).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Unfortunately, the claim that the symbol is somehow related to Mesopotamian symbols of eternity is unsourced. One eternity symbol that is broadly similar to the Borjgali is [that of neighboring Armenia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_eternity_sign). However, Armenia is not a Mesopotamian culture.&#xA;&#xA;How is the Borjgali related to Mesopotamian symbols of eternity? And which symbols might those be?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21457" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1393" RevisionGUID="97698ca2-c29c-450a-badc-86ff8af20d75" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Quoting from a footnote on [one version of the Lokasenna](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe10.htm#page_151),&#xA;&gt; There is no other reference to Loki's having spent eight years underground, or to his cow-milking. On one occasion, however, he did bear offspring. A giant had undertaken to build the gods a fortress, his reward being Freyja and the sun and moon, provided the work was done by a given time. His sole helper was his horse, Svathilfari. The work being nearly done, and the gods fearing to lose Freyja and the sun and moon, Loki [fp. 160] turned himself into a mare, and so effectually distracted Svathilfari from his task that shortly afterwards Loki gave birth to Othin's eight-legged horse, Sleipnir. In such contests of abuse a man was not infrequently taunted with having borne children; cf. Helgakvitha Hundingsbana I, 39-45. One or two of the last three lines may be spurious.&#xA;&#xA;The reference here is to a section of [the Gylfaginning](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre04.htm), as told by Hárr, which speaks of this and the birth of Sleipnir, but it appears that you were already aware of that.&#xA;&#xA;The reason I'm fairly certain that this is the event Othin refers to (besides the footnote saying that this is the only version) is that the Lokasenna is full of taunts like this, to stories that are never elaborated upon. These are examples of [flyting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flyting), an exchange of insults common in Norse mythology and literature.&#xA;&#xA;Flyting often involved outright lying as part of taunts. [Hárbarðsljóð](http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe08.htm), an exchange between Thor and a ferryman named Hárbarðr (thought to maybe be Odin or Loki!) starts out as boasts, mostly coming from Hárbarðr, but then devolves into insults, some of which are likely lies.&#xA;&#xA;Even more interesting, there are several instances of each person challenging the other's manhood:&#xA;&gt; Harbarth spake:  &#xA;&gt; 48. &quot;Sif has a lover at home, | and him shouldst thou meet;  &#xA;&gt; More fitting it were | on him to put forth thy strength.&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; . . .&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Thor spake:  &#xA;&gt; 51. &quot;Thou womanish Harbarth! | here hast thou held me too long.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;The former is an accusation that Sif is not satisfied with Thor and has another, manlier lover. The latter is an outright insult.&#xA;&#xA;The point of all this is that it seems highly likely that the passages you quoted were simple examples of flyting: Either references to obscure events or outright lies designed to put down the opponent. The anecdote about bearing children is most likely just another taunt about not being manly. Odin came up with it, and Njörðr picked it up and used it again." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21458" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1379" RevisionGUID="42a5eca4-6dc1-4b30-9d3f-e52cf3760d4f" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Bhoots are ghosts from Indian folklore, whose feet are facing backwards:  &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Bhoots are able to alter and assume forms of various animals at will, but are usually seen in human form. However, their feet often reveal them to be ghosts, as they are backwards facing.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Bhoot (ghost), https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bhoot_(ghost)&amp;oldid=692466844 (last visited Jan. 25, 2016)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Is there a story that explains this revealing deformity?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21459" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1366" RevisionGUID="ddcfb1a8-eaed-4e63-86fa-fde50a4f9f6c" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In the Popol Vuh (you can read it online: there is a [literal translation][25] and a [less literal translation][26]), the two hero twins Hunahpu and Xbalanque plant corn plants. These corn plants have an unusual property: they will die if Hunahpu and Xbalanque die.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Each of us shall plant to this ear of unripe maize,  &#xA;&gt; In its center our house we shall plant. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; This its sign our death   &#xA;&gt; If it will dry up. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; ‘They died,’  &#xA;&gt; You say when it will dry up. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; If therefore then it will come up its sprout,  &#xA;&gt; ‘They are alive,’ you say therefore,&#xA;&#xA;I'm curious about this scene: is the idea of &quot;magical corn plants&quot; (for a lack of a better description) unique to the Popol Vuh, or is it reflective of a wider Maya belief?&#xA;&#xA;  [25]: http://www.mesoweb.com/publications/Christenson/PV-Literal.pdf&#xA;  [26]: http://www.mesoweb.com/publications/Christenson/PopolVuh.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21460" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1364" RevisionGUID="27f5c7f2-0121-493e-8eaa-f7d668b0b99f" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Scurlock/Andersen in their *[Diagnoses in Assyrian and Babylonian Medicine](https://books.google.com/books?id=alBmzfP3cpoC&amp;pg=PA137&amp;dq=pasittu&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwjI7cXR-sLKAhWGJB4KHXzwC-gQ6AEIMTAA#v=onepage&amp;q=pasittu&amp;f=false)* (University of Illinois Press, 2005) call pašittu a type of disease:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The Akkadian term for cholecystitis appears to have been *pašittu*. *Pašittu* is lexically equated with bile, and the Sumerogram (ZU.MUS.I.KU.E) indicates an associated severe pain.&#xA;&#xA;They cite the following texts:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; 6.110 If, before he has eaten, a person's upper abdomen (epigastrium) gnaws at him, he continually has internal fever, and, when he belches, he vomits bile, that person is sick with *pašittu* (or) *tuganu*, to cure him...&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; 6.112 As for bile that the king my lord wrote me about, saying &quot;It came up.&quot; It is *pašittu*. The thick sputum came up; the gall settled down below (see above). This is not a good sign that he has been sending (the food) straight through (both) upward (and) downward. (However), he produced sweat for (only) two days. That is good.&#xA;&#xA;There are other texts which mention this as well, including cures.&#xA;&#xA;Note that the word &quot;bile&quot; here is *martu*.&#xA;&#xA;As for the demon, Geller in his [*Melothesia in Babylonia*](https://books.google.com/books?id=ETHnBQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA8&amp;lpg=PA7) (De Gruyter, 2014) notes that Lamaštu was considered the daughter of Pašittu:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; On the one hand *martu*, together with pašittu, can mean 'gall', as in the medical commentary GCCI 2 406:4... On the other hand, *mārtu* 'daughter' is a frequent epithet of *pašittu*, as in STT 138: 11' (dupl. of BAM 338 10'), *la-[maš]-tu maš-tu pa-šiš-tu*, 'Lamaštu daughter (of) Pašittu'. SBTU I 43, in lines 10-11, provides a different interpretation, treating Lamaštu (disease as well as demon) a parallel to another demonic disease, 'Pašittu-daughter'.&#xA;&#xA;Lamaštu itself seems to be a parallel disease:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The pattern of 'ditto' notations in ll. 8-11 show that toothworm, *girgiššu*, *lamaštu* and *pašittu* diseases are all associated with the throat, mouth, and teeth, while remaining ailments in this group (ll. 12-18) belong only to the throat.&#xA;&#xA;I haven't seen it argued, but I think it's reasonable to suppose the linguistic similarities of *martu* and *mārtu* as well as the similarities of the diseases *lamaštu* and *pašittu* were conflated and led to the association of Lamaštu and Pašittu the demons." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21461" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1358" RevisionGUID="2567f1bc-b1c4-4042-b202-6a870c833882" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="[Theoi][1] has an interesting mythical creature here&#xA;&#xA;&gt;THE ONOKENTAUROS (or Onocentaur) was an African animal with the hybrid form of a man and an ass.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;The Greeks and Romans later applied the name to a type of ape, possibly the chimpanzee.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;And a centaur, as everyone knows, is a man and a horse.&#xA;&#xA;Well, onokentaros is pretty much unknown. I searched it up, and it is like, a Japanese blog or something.&#xA;&#xA;To top that, this picture shows the onokentaros with one eye and a bone, like he's ready to smack someone. Not very ape-like.&#xA;&#xA;[![onokentaros][2]][2]&#xA;&#xA;I can't really say I've seen an account for that of Centaurs.&#xA;&#xA;Does that mean that the Centaurs were also just horses that were seen incorrectly? What were the similarities between the onokentaros and the Centaur, other than appearance? Were they ever seen to interact with each other?&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Thaumasios/Onokentauroi.html&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/FFFmE.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21462" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1653" RevisionGUID="6b7f1fcd-898f-4dd0-b363-2ea626be24e0" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Yes, the Grimm brothers tale is based on earlier works and folklore.  As a rule, the Grimm brothers fairy tales were all existing folk tales.&#xA;&#xA;The Sleeping Beauty (which I'm focusing on instead of Snow White, since it contains the same key element, and it's easier) story derives directly from Charles Perrault's [&quot;Sleeping Beauty&quot;](http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/perrault01.html) (La Belle au bois dormant), and published in his collection &quot;Histoires ou contes du temps passé&quot;.  The first half of it is very much the familiar (ie. Disney ± 1 dragon) narrative.&#xA;&#xA;The older stories *it* draws from mostly somewhat miss the true love's kiss detail, unfortunately.  Instead, a splinter holds the woman asleep, a our noble hero *fails* to wake her, proceeds to have sex with her, and nine month later she (still asleep) gives birth, and her newborn sucks the splinter from her finger, causing her to awaken.  A well known version of this is [&quot;Sun, Moon, and Talia&quot;](http://uncoy.com/2006/05/sleeping_beauty_1.html) by Giambattista Basile, and perhaps the earliest is “Histoire de Troïlus et de Zellandine&quot; from &quot;Perceforest&quot; (which I couldn't find a good source of online).&#xA;&#xA;There some possibility that sleeping beauty could draw some inspiration from the story of Brynhildr in the Völsunga saga ([Chapter 20]((http://sacred-texts.com/neu/vlsng/vlsng22.htm))), who Odin punishes by putting to sleep with a sleep-thorn, until she is saved by one who does not &quot;know the name of fear&quot; (Sigurðr, who she later marries):&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Odin, in vengeance for that deed, stuck the sleep-thorn into me, and said that I should never again have the victory, but should be given away in marriage; but there against I vowed a vow, that never would I wed one who knew the name of fear.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;The Story of the Volsungs, trans. William Morris and Eirikr Magnusson, [Chapter XX](http://sacred-texts.com/neu/vlsng/vlsng22.htm)&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21463" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2003" RevisionGUID="d5b04548-c55f-4f4c-9fdd-1d6a1ac61c64" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Ok, remember this&#xA;&#xA;* Gryphons/Griffins/Griffons are originally *greek.* It also doesn't really have a literal translation, so we go by the phonetics.&#xA;&#xA;* I'll have to trust Wikipedia on this, but γρύφων is the greek word for the creature. &#xA;&#xA;Also looking on the [theoi][1] page for this, most English translators agree that it is in fact Grypes. (Since you tagged it greek)&#xA;&#xA;&gt;*Aeschylus* &quot;[Prometheus warns the wandering Io :] ‘But now listen to another and a fearsome spectacle. Beware of the sharp-beaked hounds of Zeus that do not bark, the **Grypes (Griffins)**, and the one-eyed (monôpoi) Arimaspoi (Arimaspians), mounted on horses, who dwell about the flood of Plouton's (Pluton's) stream that flows with gold. Do not approach them.’&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;*Aristophanes* &quot;Euripides : 'Twas all Skamandros (Scamander), moated camps, and **Grypaietoi (Griffin-Eagles)** flashing in burnished copper on the shields.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;Ok fine. Grypaietoi. Same thing.&#xA;&#xA;&gt;*Herodotus* &quot;But in the north of Europe there is by far the most gold. In this matter again I cannot say with assurance how the gold is produced, but it is said that one-eyed men called Arimaspoi (Arimaspians) steal it from **Grypes (Griffins)**. The most outlying lands, though, as they enclose and wholly surround all the rest of the world, are likely to&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;*Ctesias* There is also gold [in India], not found in rivers and washed, as in the river Paktolos (Pactolus) [in Lydia], but in many large mountains which are inhabited by **Grypes (Griffins)**. These are four-footed birds as large as a wolf, their legs and claws resembling those of a lion; their breast feathers are red, those of the rest of the body black. Although there is abundance of gold in the mountains, it is difficult to get it because of these birds.&quot; have those things which we think the finest and the rarest.&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;*Pausnias* &quot;**Grypas (Griffins)**, Aristeas of Prokonnesos says in his poem, fight for the gold with the Arimaspoi (Arimaspians) beyond the Issedones. The gold which the Grypas guard, he says, comes out of the earth; the Arimaspoi are men all born with one eye; Grypas are beasts like lions, but with the beak and wings of an eagle.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;Note: There is an exerpt that he calles them Gryphoi. &#xA;&#xA;&gt;&quot;I have also heard that Gryphoi (Griffins) have spots like the leopard.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;The rest of them are some variant of Grypes.&#xA;&#xA;So, to go by *one* book (*Guide to Greece*) over many other sources is kinda unfair in my opinion, but to answer your question, its mostly just disagreeing on the phoenetics on the word Grypes. Or Gryphoi. They had not disagreed, mostly, on the spelling.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Thaumasios/Grypes.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21464" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2004" RevisionGUID="beb9817d-29df-465c-9881-5ada43bf0846" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The Trojan princess [Cassandra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassandra) was cursed by Apollo that nobody would ever believe her. Apparently though, the curse wasn't completely effective: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; After Cassandra grew up, she again spent a night in the temple. This time the god appeared and tried to get her to yield to his desire, but she refused. For this affront to him he punished her by causing her prophecies, though true, to be disbelieved. This curse failed to be effective on only one occasion. When Paris appeared as an adult at the court of Priam, Cassandra declared him her brother. It had been accepted by everyone that he had died in infancy from being exposed.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Women of Classical Mythology: A Biographical Dictionary, Robert E. Bell&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;One version of Paris' return is told by Hyginus, in his Fabulae: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; [91] XCI. ALEXANDER PARIS&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; After Priam, son of Laomedon, had had many children by Hecuba, daughter of Cisseus or of Dymas, his wife, again pregnant, in a dream saw herself giving birth to a glowing firebrand from which many serpents issued. When this vision was reported to all the seers, they bade her slay whatever child she should bear to avoid its being the ruin of the country. After Hecuba gave birth to Alexander, he was handed over to be killed, but the servants out of pity exposed him. Shepherds found the child, raised him as their own, and named him Paris. When he came to young manhood, he had a favorite bull. Servants sent by Priam to bring a bull to be given as prize in funeral games in Paris’ honor, came and started to lead off the bull of Paris. He followed them and asked them where they were leading him. They stated that they were taking him to Priam . . . [to be prize] for the victor in the funeral games of Alexander. He, out of fondness for the bull, went down and won everything, even over his own brothers. In anger Deiphobus drew his sword against him, but he leaped to the altar of Zeus Herceus. When Cassandra prophetically declared he was her brother, Priam acknowledged him and received him into the palace.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [The Myths of Hyginus, translated and edited by Mary Grant](http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusFabulae1.html).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;What was so special about that particular instance? Why did the Trojans believe Cassandra's recognition of Paris? &#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21465" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2005" RevisionGUID="59b62b95-ca94-46bf-8947-7e1ad3f9cfdd" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="So, the Gorgons had hairs of the snakes. Was it ever recorded what kind of snakes they were? &#xA;&#xA;I have a couple of [quotes][1]&#xA;&#xA;&gt;The spattered desert gave them life as snakes, smooth snakes of many kinds, and so that land still swarms with deadly serpents to this day.&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;The Gorgones' heads were entwined with the horny scales of serpents, and they had big tusks like hogs, bronze hands, and wings of gold on which they flew.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;Mopsos, stepping forward with his left foot, brought the sole down on the tip of the creature's tail, and in its pain the snake coiled round his shin and calf and bit him halfway up the leg tearing the flesh . . . The poor man was doomed. A paralysing numbness was already creeping through him, and a dark mist began to dim his sight. Unable to control his heavy limbs, he sank to the ground and soon was cold . . . Mopsos was dead; and they could not leave him in the sunshine even for a short time, for the poison at once began to rot his flesh and mouldering hair fell from his scalp.&#xA;&#xA;Can ya'll find the snake type? Or a quote that says so?&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Gorgones.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21466" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2303" RevisionGUID="d7271126-d669-4e1e-9545-4d3e3388e31e" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Suicide and honor&#xA;-----------------&#xA;&#xA;This will not be answer that was asked for. Instead, I will argue that the concept of honour worked in a way that **suicide could not be an answer**.&#xA;&#xA;I will start by quoting Hávamál, verse 71:&#xA;&gt;The halt can manage a horse, &lt;br&gt;&#xA;&gt;the handless a flock,  &lt;br&gt;&#xA;&gt;The deaf be a doughty fighter,  &lt;br&gt;&#xA;&gt;To be blind is better than to burn on a pyre: &lt;br&gt;&#xA;&gt;There is nothing the dead can do.&lt;br&gt; &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;Translation by [W H Auden &amp; P B Taylor][1]&#xA;&#xA;The Norse ideas of honour was not intrinsic: Honour was something you held in the eyes of others, and so was shame. You were not shamed by, for example, making a mistake. You were shamed if others treated you in a manner that indicated that you were not worthy of respect, or if you failed to demand the honour that should be due to you. If someone shamed you, the correct action would be to regain the honour in some way, typically by seeking revenge, or satisfaction through settlement or trial: any of these ways would prove that you were not someone to trifle with.&#xA;&#xA;This, of course, means that suicide was generally not an acceptable way to redeem yourself, because it accomplishes nothing, or worse: it made you seem weak. &#xA;&#xA;When revenge is impossible&#xA;--------------------------&#xA;Death might, however, be the result when revenge is impossible. Two good examples of this is Egill Skallagrímsson and Hrethel from *Beowulf*.&#xA;The cases are similar in that they are not &quot;clear&quot; suicides; in both cases it is more a case of a lost will to live after accidents have claimed their sons. What makes it interesting here is that in both cases this is connected to a matter of honour: Hrethel because his son has fallen to an arrow from his brother in an hunting accident, which cannot be avenged, Egil because his son has drowned, and as he says in *Sonatorrek*, he does not have the might to avenge himself on the ocean. Egill is eventually turned back to life by his daughter, while Hrethel dies:&#xA;&#xA;&gt;Heartsore, wearied, he turned away,&lt;br&gt;&#xA;&gt;from life's joys, choose God's light&lt;br&gt;&#xA;&gt;and departed...&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;*Beowulf*, lines 2468-2470, translated by Seamus Heaney&#xA;&#xA;Of course, this is rather obviously influenced by Christian thoughts, so it should be taken with some salt.&#xA;&#xA;Suicide in battle&#xA;---------------&#xA;I will take an example from actual history: [Olaf Tryggvason][2], who jumped ship when he realised that he had lost the battle of Svolder. This was, of course, in no way pre-mediated. Afterwards, all his remaining men also jumped ship. Snorri does not offer any judgement of this action. &#xA;&#xA;Conclusion&#xA;----------&#xA;Taking also the account of Brynhilde from Yannis answer into account, I would say that suicide in general was a result of *grief*, not shame. Shame was ideally to be washed away by gaining honour through great deeds, and killing yourself did not count. &#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://web.archive.org/web/20050912100548/http://vta.gamall-steinn.org/havamal.htm&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olaf_Tryggvason&#xA;&#xA;Sources&#xA;-------&#xA; - For the discussion of honor as a general concept, I have mostly relied on Gro Steinsland, *Fornnordisk religion*, even if some parts of it are my own: seh deos not specifically discuss suicide, for example. As far as I can tell, there are at least no contradictions.&#xA; - The analysis Of Egill and Hrethel is my own, even if there is not much interpretation needed: most of the stuff is explicitly spelled out.&#xA; - For Olaf Tryggvasson, I rely on Snorri's *Heimskringla*. From what I understand, the suicide is also covered by Adam of Bremen and Saxo Grammaticus.&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21467" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2288" RevisionGUID="b0c1d033-66aa-4ed9-a491-5f3e1b19bb99" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="[Thorgerd Egilsdottir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorgerd_Egilsdottir) who threatens to starve herself to death unless her father eats after the death of his beloved son, Bodvar.  Her threat must be seen as doubly heroic in the context of the quote:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; I have had no evening meal, nor will I do so until I go to join Freyja. I know no better course of action than my father’s. I do not want to live after my father and brother are dead.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Egils Saga Skallagrímssonar (Egil’s Saga), in The Sagas of the Icelanders, ed. Örnólfur Thorsson, trans. Bernard Scudder (New York: Penguin Books, 2001), p. 151.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Here she is referring to  [Fólkvangr](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%B3lkvangr), the domain of [Freyja](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freyja), where half of dead heroes go.&#xA;&#xA;She also appears in the [Laxdæla saga](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laxd%C3%A6la_saga) where she is characterized thus: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Everyone soon realized what a woman of strong character Thorgerd was: though she was not one to waste words, once she set her mind on something there was no swaying her – things had to go the way she wanted.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: he Saga of the People of Laxardal (Laxdæla saga), in The Sagas of the Icelanders, ed. Örnólfur Thorsson, trans. Bernard Scudder (New York: Penguin Books, 2001), p. 315&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;and later she is active in shaming her sons into seeking vengeance for their slain brother Kjartan:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Here lives Bolli, your brother’s slayer, and not a shred of resemblance do you bear to your great ancestors since you won’t avenge a brother the likes of Kjartan. Never would your grandfather Egil have acted like this, and it grieves me to have such spineless sons. You would have made your father better daughters, to be married off, than sons. It shows the truth of the saying, Halldor, that “every kin has its coward”. I see only too well now that fathering such sons was Olaf’s great failing. I will address my words to you Halldor...because you’ve taken the lead among your brothers. We will turn back now; I made the journey mainly to remind you of what you seem to have forgotten.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Id. p. 377&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;So set on vengeance is she that she accompanies the party and, when they balk at the coup de grâce, urges them on:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; When Bolli was cornered, Thorgerd “urged them not to hesitate to finish Bolli off and put some space between trunk and head.”&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Id. p. 381&lt;/sub&gt; &#xA;&#xA;which is quite reminiscent of Euripides' take on [Electra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electra_(Euripides_play)).&#xA;&#xA; &#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21468" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2281" RevisionGUID="f4f04777-7704-493f-896d-95a3cd01daee" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In the first ten chapters of the of the Saga of the Volsungs, Odin strongly favors the eponymous clan. In chapter 11, however, the Allfather sides with King Lyngi and attacks Sigmund, shattering the same sword he had gifted Volsung's son earlier in the saga: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; But now whenas the battle had dured a while, there came a man into the fight clad in a blue cloak, and with a slouched hat on his head, one-eyed he was, and bare a bill in his hand; and he came against Sigmund the King, and have up his bill against him, and as Sigmund smote fiercely with the sword it fell upon the bill and burst asunder in the midst: thenceforth the slaughter and dismay turned to his side, for the good-hap of King Sigmund had departed from him, and his men fell fast about him; naught did the king spare himself, but the rather cheered on his men; but even as the saw says, &quot;No might 'gainst many&quot;, so was it now proven; and in this fight fell Sigmund the King, and King Eylimi, his father-in-law, in the fore-front of their battle, and therewith the more part of their folk.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Story of the Volsungs, translated by William Morris and Eirikr Magnusson&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Why the sudden change of heart?&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21469" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2278" RevisionGUID="9d2da3cb-7419-49b4-981b-518ba3e3f4ee" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="This is indeed confusingly presented but the implication is that Hope did not escape (&quot;fly out the door&quot;).  One of the Aesop versions may clarify somewhat:&#xA;&#xA; &gt; &quot;Zeus gathered all the useful things together in a jar and put a lid on it. He then left the jar in human hands. But man had no self-control and he wanted to know what was in that jar, so he pushed the lid aside, letting those things go back to the abode of the gods. So all the good things flew away, soaring high above the earth, and Elpis (Hope) was the only thing left. When the lid was put back on the jar, Elpis (Hope) was kept inside. That is why Elpis (Hope) alone is still found among the people, promising that she will bestow on each of us the good things that have gone away.&quot; &#xA; &gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Aesop, Fables 526 (from Babrius 58) (trans. Gibbs) (Greek fable C6th B.C.)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21470" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2261" RevisionGUID="ca7b0aa9-bdb7-4ef5-b948-b376788dec15" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In chapter 10 of the Saga of the Völsungs, Sigmund's son Sinfjotli dies. His corpse is presumably carried to the underworld by a mysterious boatman, in a manner reminiscent of the Greek ferryman of Hades, Charon: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; So Sinfjotli drank, and straightway fell down dead to the ground.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Sigmund rose up, and sorrowed nigh to death over him; then he took the corpse in his arms and fared away to the wood, and went till he came to a certain firth; and then he saw a man in a little boat; and that man asked if he would be wafted by him over the firth, and he said yes thereto; but so little was the boat, that they might not all go in it at once, so the corpse was first laid therein, while Sigmund went by the firth-side. But therewith the boat and the man therein vanished away from before Sigmund's eyes.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Story of the Volsungs, translated by William Morris and Eirikr Magnusson&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Who is this mysterious psychopomp? Is he mentioned in any other Norse legend?&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21471" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2260" RevisionGUID="fd526a90-ec4a-4102-a4e8-f4fb8391214c" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="&gt;The Twelve great gods of the Greeks were known as the Olympians. Together they presided over every aspect of human life. The goddess Hestia (listed here in the second rank) was sometimes included amongst the Twelve.&#xA;&#xA;[From here][1]:&#xA;&#xA;So going with the list provided&#xA;&#xA;* Aphrodite&#xA;* Apollo&#xA;* Ares&#xA;* Artemis&#xA;* Athena &#xA;* Demeter&#xA;* Dionysus&#xA;* Hephaestus&#xA;* Hermes&#xA;* Hestia (Part-time)&#xA;* Hera&#xA;* Posideon&#xA;* Zeus &#xA;&#xA;They seem to vary because of the age of the sources, I believe earlier sources say that Hestia is one of the 12.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/greek-mythology/olympian-gods.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21472" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2255" RevisionGUID="a8be0d72-045a-4149-9f6d-a7b16806b19b" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In chapter 8 of the Saga of the Völsungs, Sigmund (in wolf form) attacks and almost kills his son Sinfjotli (also in wolf form). Sinfjotli is only saved when Sigmund is pointed to a miraculous herb by a couple of weasels and a raven:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Then Sigmund rushed at him so hard that he staggered and fell, and Sigmund bit him in the throat. Now that day they might not come out of their wolf-skins: but Sigmund lays the other on his back, and bears him home to the house, and cursed the wolf-gears and gave them to the trolls. Now on a day he saw where two weasels went and how that one bit the other in the throat, and then ran straightway into the thicket, and took up a leaf and laid in on the wound, and thereon his fellow sprang up quite and clean whole; so Sigmund went out and saw a raven flying with a blade of that same herb to him; so he took it and drew it over Sinfjotli's hurt, and he straightway sprang up as whole as though he had never been hurt. There after they went home to their earth-house, and abode there till the time came for them to put off the wolf-shapes; then they burnt them up with fire, and prayed that no more hurt might come to any one from them; but in that uncouth guise they wrought many famous deeds in the kingdom and lordship of King Siggeir.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Story of the Volsungs, translated by William Morris and Eirikr Magnusson&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Is it Odin - who is commonly associated with ravens - that intervenes and heals Sinfjotli? If so, why? Wouldn't Sinfjotli make it into Valhalla, had he died as a wolf? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21473" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2243" RevisionGUID="b0fbf121-2f5e-4575-a69f-6744c002bef5" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The [Knights Templar][1] were a Catholic military order. They were very wealthy and very skilled, but after the Holy Land was lost in the crusades, mistrust built on them and rumors started to spread about them. One of these rumors was that the order worshiped Baphomet:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The symbolic head of the goat of Mendes is occasionally given to this figure, and it is then the Baphomet of the Templars and the Word of the Gnostics, bizarre images which became scarecrows for the vulgar after affording food for reflection to sages – innocent hieroglyphs of thought and faith which have been a pretext for the rage of persecutions. How pitiable are men in their ignorance, but how they would despise themselves if only they came to know!&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Dogma et Rituel de la Haute Magie (translated)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Satanism, on the other hand, is the belief that Satan, or any form of the devil, is the main force. So it appears the Baphomet is associated with both the Knights Templar and [Satanism][2].&#xA;&#xA;Which association of Baphomet came first?&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1853/why-are-goats-associated-with-satan" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21474" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2241" RevisionGUID="ecdac8ec-dcfa-49ad-86e1-38c2335181b8" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="A [flyting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flyting) has been defined as: &#xA;&#xA;&gt;&quot;a contest consisting of the exchange of insults, often conducted in verse, between two parties.&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Parks, Ward. &quot;Flyting, Sounding, Debate: Three Verbal Contest Genres&quot;, Poetics Today 7.3, Poetics of Fiction (1986:439-458)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;So are flytings the forebearer of [Rap Battles](https://youtu.be/ylkOAtifuJ0), such as the one depicted in the film 8 Mile between Eminem and Papa Doc?  Are there other cultures where a poetic battle of wits played a central role in the mythos, such as with the [Loksenna](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lokasenna)?  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21475" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2216" RevisionGUID="fc5ca418-5e5d-485b-b952-cebeedc554ad" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Völsung's mother carried him in her womb for six years: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Now no otherwise it goes with the queen's sickness than heretofore, nor may she be the lighter of her child, and six winters wore away with the sickness still heavy on her; so that at the last she feels that she may not live long; wherefore now she bade cut the child from out of her; and it was done even as she bade; a man-child was it, and great of growth from his birth, as might well be; and they say that the youngling kissed his mother or ever she died; but to him is a name given, and he is called Volsung; and he was king over Hunland in the room of his father. From his early years he was big and strong, and full of daring in all manly deeds and trials, and he became the greatest of warriors, and of good hap in all the battles of his warfaring.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Story of the Volsungs, translated by William Morris and Eirikr Magnusson&lt;/sub&gt; &#xA;&#xA;Is there a reason for this extremely long gestation?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21476" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2208" RevisionGUID="d73b0b8b-10ca-4ec3-a5af-2bddc8ffe4a4" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In the beginning of the Saga of the Völsungs, we learn of the senseless murder of the thrall Bredi at the hands of Sigi. Although Sigi is condemned and declared a &quot;wolf in holy places&quot; (an outlaw), Odin helps him attain warships and troops and he eventually becomes a great king.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Thus it is well seen that Sigi has slain the thrall and murdered him; so he is given forth to be a wolf in holy places, and may no more abide in the land with his father; therewith Odin bare him fellowship from the land, so long a way, that right long it was, and made no stay till he brought him to certain war-ships. So Sigi falls to lying out a-warring with the strength that his father gave him or ever they parted; and happy was he in his warring, and ever prevailed, till he brought it about that he won by his wars land and lordship at the last; and thereupon he took to him a noble wife, and became a great and mighty king, and ruled over the land of the Huns, and was the greatest of warriors. He had a son by his wife, who was called Refit, who grew up in his father's house, and soon became great of growth, and shapely.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Story of the Volsungs, translated by William Morris and Eirikr Magnusson&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;I understand that Sigi supposedly is a &quot;son of Odin&quot;, however it doesn't seem quite right that the Allfather would favour him as much after he is identified as a murderer.&#xA;&#xA;Is there an explanation for Odin's morally questionable preference of Sigi?&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21477" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2206" RevisionGUID="ce163c3e-46b5-468f-a8e6-206dd45d7d91" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Aelian records the following tale of an elephant fighting a dragon:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; In India, I am told, the Elephant and the Drakon (Dragon-Serpent) are the bitterest enemies. Now Elephants draw down the branches of trees and feed upon them. And the Drakones, knowing this, crawl up the trees and envelop the lower half of their bodies in the foliage, but the upper portion extending to the head they allow to hang loose like a rope. And the Elephant approaches to pluck the twigs, whereat the Drakon springs at its eyes and gouges them out. Next the Drakon winds round the Elephant's neck, and as it clings to the tree with the lower part of its body, it tightens its hold with the upper part and strangles the Elephant with an unusual and singular noose.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Aelian, On Animals, Book 6. Translated by Scholfield, A. F.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xA;&#xA;Does the story appear in Indian sources? Do we know the reason for the animosity between the two beasts?&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.abdn.ac.uk/bestiary/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21478" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2202" RevisionGUID="54fde242-4ca2-447b-a8fd-c3d7af2eb9b5" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="[An article](http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/tv-and-radio/drama/m28cover2-20160524-gp2e90.html) in *The Sydney Morning Herald* has the creator of *Cleverman*, Ryan Griffen, discussing the traditional Aboriginal role of the Cleverman. The article paints a picture of the Cleverman as a shaman of sorts, an elder and master of magic within a local community. Griffen states&#xA;&gt; &quot;Our cleverman is different from the actual cleverman that existed in many Aboriginal communities,&quot; he says. &quot;The Dreamtime is about the past, present and future, and so he has powers that relate to all three of those.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; . . .&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &quot;In our show, these powers are passed down, very much as in Aboriginal culture. A cleverman is chosen by another cleverman when they're of the right bloodline or are the right type of person. For our cleverman, those powers are passed down to him by his uncle.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;I agree that finding references to the Cleverman not connected to the show is extremely difficult. I found a tenuous reference in James Cowan's book [*Myths of the dreaming: interpreting Aboriginal legends*](https://books.google.com/books/about/Myths_of_the_dreaming.html?id=dZWBAAAAMAAJ) (from an article [here](http://news.aboriginalartdirectory.com/2016/05/cleverman.php)) connecting them with the mekigars, shamans." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21479" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2187" RevisionGUID="0a28ebab-eec2-4af9-9a58-bef3d9dad7d2" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="# Complicated&#xA;&#xA;Well, it definitely doesn't claim to be folklore at all, it was just in a book by [Thomas Nast.][1]&#xA;&#xA;[![Santa Claus 1863 Harpers][2]][3]  &#xA;(Linked [full size image][3] is over 7 MiB; [Wikimedia Commons page][4]; image is in the public domain)&#xA;&#xA;&gt;Santaclausville, N[orth] P[ole]&#xA;&#xA;Another example related to Nast is by George P. Webster:&#xA;&#xA;&gt;&quot;His home through the long summer months, you must know,&lt;br&gt;&#xA;&gt;Is near the North Pole, in the ice and the snow.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;Nast drew the Illustrations for the poem, but the 1863 example remains the 1st.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Nast&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/grfap.png&#xA;  [3]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/Santa_Claus_1863_Harpers.png&#xA;  [4]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Santa_Claus_1863_Harpers.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21480" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2186" RevisionGUID="9de560a7-9206-49cb-9b5f-e92a6d1f812d" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="# Thomas Nast and the Northern side in the US Civil War&#xA;&#xA;The idea that Father Christmas, Santa Claus, has a workshop at the North Pole may have originated with illustrator Thomas Nast, whose work was published in _Harper's Weekly_ between 1863 and 1886 and in other publications including on Christmas cards.&#xA;&#xA;In an introduction to a reprint of Nast's collected drawings first published in 1890, his grandson Thomas Nast St Hill states that &quot;_Santa's workshop at the North Pole was (...) a product of Nast's imagination_&quot;. He goes on to say that &quot;_why Santa chose the North Pole as his base of operations has never been quite clear but the chances are that logistics had something to do with it. The North Pole was equidistant from most countries that Santa visited in the Northern Hemisphere_&quot;. As further reasons, he writes that it would be difficult for inquisitive youngsters to spy on him there, and that as a resident of the North Pole he could not be claimed by any country as a national. He also reports that the reindeer and sleigh described by Clement Moore suggested a snowy environment.&#xA;&#xA;[This][1] is quite an informative article in the _New York Times_.&#xA;&#xA;It is probable that there was also a political reason for the choice of the North Pole. [During the US Civil War of 1861-65, Nast made propaganda for the Northern (Union) side][2]. Some of this featured Santa Claus, and Abraham Lincoln called Nast's use of Santa Claus &quot;_the best recruiting sergeant the North ever had_&quot;. Santa was in a way being portrayed as a kind of spirit of the North.&#xA;&#xA;The North Pole is of course the most Northern place in the world.&#xA;&#xA;Meanwhile on the Southern (Confederate) side, the _Richmond Examiner_ described Santa in negative terms as &quot;a Dutch toy monger&quot; who was a New England cleaning worker and a Hottentot who had nothing to do with traditional Virginian celebrations of Christmas.&#xA;&#xA;One interesting source is [Kevin Rawlings's article on Christmas during the civil war][3].&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/harp/1225.html&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_in_the_American_Civil_War#Nast_cartoons_and_other_propaganda&#xA;  [3]: http://www.historynet.com/christmas-in-the-civil-war-december-1998-civil-war-times-feature.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21481" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2183" RevisionGUID="51309d27-534b-4c46-9680-bd75c43ee49a" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In the Orphic tradition, Dionysus was the son of Zeus and Persephone. As a young boy, he was slain by the Titans, at the behest of Hera. Zeus recovered the boy's heart, made it into a potion and gave it to Semele, who then gave birth to the second incarnation of Dionysus. This tradition includes Egyptian elements, having several elements in parallel with the Osiris myth.&#xA;&#xA;Now, in the Hesiodic tradition - the one Diodorus Siculus calls the &quot;Greek account&quot; - the story is a bit different. The Dionysus born of Zeus and Semele is the first incarnation, and Dionysus is reborn from Zeus' thigh when Semele dies. &#xA;&#xA;The epithet &quot;τρίγονον&quot; points to a reconciliation of the two traditions, a fused version of the story. The older Dionysus, Zagreus, was born of Zeus and Persephone and died at the hands of the Titans. He was then born again when his mortal mother died, and then a third time when he emerged from his father's thigh. &#xA;&#xA;This is also how Dionysus acquired the epithet _dimetor_ (of two mothers): &#xA;&#xA;&gt; He was also called Dimetor, they relate, because the two Dionysi were born of one father, but of two mothers. The younger one also inherited the deeds of the older, and so the men of later times, being unaware of the truth and being deceived because of the identity of their names, thought there had been but one Dionysus.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Diodorus Siculus. Library of History (Books III - VIII). Translated by Oldfather, C. H. Loeb Classical Library Volumes 303 and 340. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1935.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21482" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2179" RevisionGUID="f45a5803-f2fe-4450-900e-5d2bf3faef1e" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="# They sacrificed children to both&#xA;&#xA;From [*Greek Religion and Culture, the Bible and the Ancient Near East*][2]&#xA;&#xA;&gt;Kronos' connection to a human sacrifice was not uncommon. It also attested for Crete in the context of the Kouretes, and in Carthage Kronos was identified with Baal Hammon, the god to whom children were sacrificed... Sophocles already connects Kronos to human sacrifice by barbarians. In all these cases we may assume the influence of Kronos' mythical devouring of his children; in fact, an imperial inscription still calls him &quot;Kronos the child-eater.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;Speculation: Baal-Hammon was also an agriculture god, like Saturn in Roman mythology. That could be a possible connection, but it doesn't equate for Kronos.&#xA;&#xA;More Speculation: Wikipedia states that&#xA;&#xA;&gt;The potential cruelty of Saturn was enhanced by his identification with Cronus, known for devouring his own children. He was thus used in translation when referring to gods from other cultures the Romans perceived as severe;&#xA;&#xA;And of course, the Romans **hated** the Carthaginians. So, they would associate severe with a god they hated.&#xA;&#xA;More support to this answer, (credit to @Yannis again), Libyan Greeks were the most friendly with the Carthaginians, and they associated Baal Hammon with Zeus.&#xA;&#xA;&gt;The Cyrenaican Greeks built temples for the Libyan god Amon[, another name for Baal-Hammon] instead of their original god Zeus. They later identified their supreme god Zeus with the Libyan Amon.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://mythworld.wikia.com/wiki/Interpretatio_graeca&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.com/books?id=id2wCQAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA84&amp;lpg=PA84&amp;dq=why%20was%20baal%20hammon%20identified%20with%20cronos&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=oWUGJ9jYEc&amp;sig=CU-SvrO7JzvfxOQ2hxhs2WnvgJQ&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwi_iffCw4DRAhVKOCYKHa8sBPIQ6AEIOTAG#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21483" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2008" RevisionGUID="f0de1290-cb8a-4d75-87fa-5c263d7f3fac" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Wikipedia claims:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; A snake as a source of knowledge is a recurring theme in Greek mythology, though sometimes the snake brings understanding of the language of animals rather than an ability to know the future. Likewise, prophets without honor in their own country reflect a standard narrative trope&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: [Cassandra (Wikipedia)](https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cassandra&amp;oldid=735488426&lt;/sub&gt;)&#xA;&#xA;Other than the myth of Cassandra, what other examples of snakes as a source of knowledge can be found in Greek mythology? I'm interested in examples featuring  actual snakes, not so much in mythical creatures with serpentine / draconian features like Python, the Delphi serpent." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21484" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2009" RevisionGUID="b0320285-dded-4120-94b1-8ba772cca397" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="# [Melampus][1]&#xA;&#xA;He told his servants to not kill two snakes, and he in turn learned the language of the Animals.&#xA;&#xA;&gt;When Melampus lived with Neleus, he dwelt outside the town of Pylos, and before his house there stood an oak tree containing a serpent's nest. The old serpents were killed by his servants, and burnt by Melampus himself, who reared the young ones. One day, when they had grown up, and Melampus was asleep, they approached from both sides and cleaned his ears with their tongues. Being thus roused from his sleep, he started up, and to his surprise perceived that he now understood the language of birds, and that with their assistance he could foretell the future. In addition to this he acquired the power of prophesying, from the victims that were offered to the gods, and, after having had an interview with Apollo on the banks of the Alpheius, he became a most renowned soothsayer (Apollod. i. 9. § 11; Eustath. ad Hom. p. 1685). &#xA;&#xA;Specifically from Apollodorus's *Library,*&#xA;&#xA;&gt;Amythaon dwelt in Pylus and married Idomene, daughter of Pheres, and there were born to him two sons, Bias and Melampus. The latter lived in the country, and before his house there was an oak, in which there was a lair of snakes. His servants killed the snakes, but Melampus **gathered wood and burnt the reptiles, and reared the young ones. And when the young were full grown, they stood beside him at each of his shoulders as he slept, and they purged his ears with their tongues.** He started up in a great fright, but **understood the voices of the birds flying overhead, and from what he learned from them he foretold to men what should come to pass.** He acquired besides the art of taking the auspices, and having fallen in with Apollo at the Alpheus he was ever after an excellent soothsayer. &#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.mythindex.com/greek-mythology/M/Melampus.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21485" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2042" RevisionGUID="f40608f8-2f52-409f-a56d-d826077572a8" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In the Lokasenna,&#xA;&#xA;&gt;Loki responds in the stanza 34, stating that &quot;from here you were sent east as hostage to the gods&quot; (a reference to the Æsir-Vanir War) and that &quot;the daughters of Hymir used you as a pisspot, and pissed in your mouth.&quot;[9]&#xA;&#xA;[Source:][1]&#xA;&#xA;&gt;Loki spake:&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;34. &quot;Be silent, Njorth; | thou wast eastward sent,&#xA;To the gods as a hostage given;&#xA;And the daughters of Hymir | their privy had&#xA;When use did they make of thy mouth.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;[Source:][2]&#xA;&#xA;Why did the daughters of Hymir urinate in Njord's mouth? &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nj%C3%B6r%C3%B0r#Poetic_Edda&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda/Lokasenna" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21486" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2045" RevisionGUID="043d9b45-4314-43fb-8e21-ec0f3da7a63b" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Time and chronology tend to be fairly loose in Greek mythology, particularly as there are usually multiple authors treating the same subjects.&#xA;&#xA;Regardless, Achilles is presumed to be a youth at the start of the war.  In this famous vase painting, he is depicted as beardless:&#xA;&#xA;[![Achilles tending Patroclus wounded by an arrow, identified by inscriptions on the upper part of the vase. Tondo of an Attic red-figure kylix, ca. 500 BC. From Vulci.][1]][1]&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[You can read more about this vase at the Perseus site at Tufts.](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/artifact?name=Berlin+F+2278&amp;object=Vase)&lt;/sub&gt; &#xA;&#xA;You may recall that Cúchulainn, a warrior of similar prowess and invincibility, is also noted to be beardless during the action of the Táin, which causes some warriors to balk at dueling him. [In this passage](https://books.google.com/books?id=h-WoRsfK99UC&amp;pg=PA134&amp;dq=cuchullain+berry+juice+beard+fistful+of+grass&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0ahUKEwiSsZ73j-jPAhUBJx4KHV0XDboQ6AEINjAA#v=onepage&amp;q=cuchullain%20berry%20juice%20beard%20fistful%20of%20grass&amp;f=false) he resorts to using berry juice and grass to fake a beard. [The Tain, Kinsella, p.134]  &#xA;&#xA;Both Achilles and Cúchulainn performed amazing martial feats in childhood--the latter killed the monstrous hound from which his name derives, and the former was said to have killed his first boar by age 6. Thus extreme youth, as early as 11 or 12, is not implausible for Achilles at the outset of the war.  &#xA;&#xA;There is also the very well known story from several post-Homeric sources of [Thetis spiriting Achilles away to Skyros](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles#Other_stories) to dress as a girl and hide among the women there as a way of avoiding his tragic fate were he to sail to Troy.  When Nestor, Ajax and Odysseus went to suss him out, it is mentioned they never would have pierced the disguise had Odysseus not tricked him into revealing himself.  (Legend holds that Odysseus dumped out a pile of gifts for the girls, but also included a shield and spear, which Achilles seized, stripping himself to the waist.  [The Greek Myths, Graves, 160k]&#xA;&#xA;This implies he has to be young enough to pass for a girl. Unless Achilles was extremely feminine, a possible implication is that his voice had not yet changed.   &#xA;&#xA;Achilles was also said to have fathered Neoptolemus at Skyros, but I'd caution against imposing contemporary mores in terms of appropriate ages for fatherhood.  He could have just hit puberty when he conceives his son.&#xA;&#xA;Robert Graves mentions the age of 15, citing Homer himself [The Greek Myths, Graves, 160.l], but I haven't been able to track down the exact passage—the version of the Iliad Graves was working from may have had different numbering or may have had passages that are now considered apocryphal. However, he does lead to some useful passages.  In one, Phoenix says:&#xA;&#xA;&gt;  It was to thee that the old horseman Peleus sent me on the day when he sent thee to Agamemnon, forth from Phthia, [440] a mere child, knowing naught as yet of evil war...&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Iliad, Murray, ix.438-440](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D417)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;What is interesting about that passage, when you go to Greek, is that Homer uses the term [νήπιον](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=nh%2Fpion&amp;la=greek&amp;can=nh%2Fpion0&amp;prior=pe/mpe&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0133:book=9:card=417&amp;i=1#lexicon) (&quot;nhay-pee-on&quot;) which not only means child, but in some cases, specifically a pre-pubescent child. *(The LSJ entry from the word link makes direct reference to this passage in the Iliad.)*&#xA;&#xA;My best guess is that he would have been in his mid-teens at the outset of the war, but he certainly could have been a few years younger or older.&#xA;&#xA;As for the age of Paris, that's much more of a rabbit hole. However, based on the age differential you mention, we can infer that he was in his late twenties to his mid-thirties.    &#xA;&#xA;__________________________________&#xA;&#xA;*Hope this answer provides some satisfaction.  I'll continue to try and hunt down the mystery passage cited by Graves.*&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/m6GLX.jpg&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21487" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2073" RevisionGUID="07ae28d2-3d4d-4d52-b5cd-6cb6c4f9c2cc" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="&gt; Some scholars hypothesize that both Frigg and Freyja may have their origin in a Common Germanic goddess. There is no firm evidence for this, but scholars have found some similarities both in their mythological features and the possible etymologies of their names, as well as place-names associated with them.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; ... &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The day of the week Friday in Old Norse is called both Freyjudagr and Frjádagr (for Freyja and Frigg respectively), in Faröese Fríggjadagur, and in Old High German was Frîatac, Frîgetac, and now Freitag, for Frigg. In Old English Frigedæg referred to Frigg as well.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The name of the early English goddess is attested only in the name of the weekday, although frīg (strong feminine) as a common noun meaning &quot;love&quot; (in the singular) or &quot;affections, embraces&quot; (in the plural) is attested in poetry.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; Source: Frigg and Freyja origin hypothesis. (2016, October 1). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 22:25, October 1, 2016, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Frigg_and_Freyja_origin_hypothesis&amp;oldid=742135256&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21488" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2119" RevisionGUID="4e0fa712-690b-43cc-b9c5-fdfd5f5a5902" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="I think the &quot;in-world&quot; world answer would definitely be based on physics, specifically optics and reflectivity.   &#xA;&#xA;Our modern conception is quite different than of the ancient. The modern [silvered-glass mirror](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvering) dates only to about the mid 19th century CE.&#xA;&#xA;This modern conception in regard to Perseus is almost certainly influenced by the effects master [Ray Harryhausen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Harryhausen)'s famous depiction in the 1981 [Clash of the Titans](https://youtu.be/8X7W-oPhY48).  In the film, the make the mirror look like polished metal, but the degree of reflectivity and detail would only be possible with industrial era techniques.&#xA;&#xA;&gt;Mirrors of speculum metal or any precious metal were hard to produce and were only owned by the wealthy.[5] These stone and metal mirrors could be made in very large sizes, but were difficult to polish and get perfectly flat; a process that became more difficult with increased size; so they often produced warped or blurred images. Stone mirrors often had poor reflectivity compared to metals, yet metals scratch or tarnish easily, so they frequently needed polishing. Depending upon the color, both often yielded reflections with poor color rendering.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[History of the Mirror](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror#History)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;- Note than a mirror on either the inside or outside of a shield would not be flat, so the warping and distortion would be pronounced.&#xA;&#xA;- If Perseus propped the shield against a wall to use the reflection, increased distance between himself and Medusa would profoundly degrade the image.  &#xA;&#xA;- If he was holding the shield in his off-hand as he approached to make a back-handed coup-de-gras, unsteadiness of the mirror would further blur the image.&#xA;&#xA;- If the shield had seen previous action, it would be dented and scratched, which would further degrade the image. &#xA;&#xA;- If the event took place at night, which, in the Pseudo-Appolodorus is implied by the slumbering state of Gorgones, fine details would have extremely difficult to make out.&#xA;&#xA;- If the location was a cave or temple, the setting would have been dim, even in broad daylight, further degrading the image. &#xA;&#xA;From a technical perspective, in terms of the mechanics of making such a cut, the only detail Perseus would need to be able to make out in the mirror would be the proportional difference between her head and torso, in order to gauge the position of the neck.  If Medusa's hair was writhing serpents, her head would have been that much more easily distinguishable. &#xA;&#xA;Note that in the Harryhausen, Perseus played by Harry Hamlin needs only to use the shield to gauge the height of her neck—peerless warrior that he is, he is able to hide behind a pillar and deliver the [coup de grâce](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coup_de_gr%C3%A2ce) as she passes without looking. &#xA;&#xA;The use of the polished shield is almost certainly an interpolation. Maybe it took a millenium for someone to think to ask &quot;if looking at her turned you to stone, how did he cut off her head?&quot; lol, and the bard, taking a draught from his bowl his winebowl as he considered his answer,spying a bright bronze shield answered...&#xA;&#xA;The psychological elements noted by Arthur George in his answer might make the idea feel right to a listener.  &#xA;&#xA;- **To an ancient mind, the assumption would have been of a very blurry image with little detail, not nearly clear enough to [petrify](https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&amp;ion=1&amp;espv=2&amp;ie=UTF-8#q=petrify) the brave witness with horror.**  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21489" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2313" RevisionGUID="5e4d5147-82ca-4d0d-b8ad-575d82389b26" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Snorri Sturluson comments on this in the *Gylfaginning* (emphasis mine):&#xA;&#xA;&gt; 9\. Then said Ganglere: Much had been done, it seemed to me, when heaven and earth were made, when sun and moon were set in their places, and when days were marked out; but whence came the people who inhabit the world? Har answered as follows: As Bor's sons went along the sea-strand, they found two trees. These trees they took up and made men of them. The first gave them spirit and life; the second endowed them with reason and power of motion; and the third gave them form, speech, hearing and eyesight. They gave them clothes and names; the man they called Ask, and the woman Embla. From them all mankind is descended, and a dwelling-place was given them under Midgard. In the next place, the sons of Bor made for themselves in the middle of the world a burg, which is called Asgard, and which we call Troy. There dwelt the gods and their race, and thence were wrought many tidings and adventures, both on earth and in the sky. In Asgard is a place called Hlidskjalf, and when Odin seated himself there in the high-seat, he saw over the whole world, and what every man was doing, and he knew all things that he saw. His wife hight Frigg, and she was the daughter of Fjorgvin, and from their offspring are descended the race that we call asas, who inhabited Asgard the old and the realms that lie about it, and all that race are known to be gods. **And for this reason Odin is called Alfather, that he is the father of all gods and men, and of all things that were made by him and by his might.** Jord (earth) was his daughter and his wife; with her he begat his first son, and that is Asa-Thor. To him was given force and strength, whereby he conquers all things quick.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Prose Edda/Gylfaginning. (2016, February 8). In Wikisource . Retrieved 09:06, January 20, 2017, from https://en.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning&amp;oldid=6105167&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Earlier on, Har (yet another manifestation of Odin) informs us that the epithet is Odin's name in the language of the gods, and thus the first in the [very long line of his names][1] (emphasis mine): &#xA;&#xA;&gt; 3\. Ganglere then made the following question: Who is the highest and oldest of all the gods? Made answer Har: **Alfather he is called in our tongue, but in Asgard of old he had twelve names. The first is Alfather, the second is Herran or Herjan, the third Nikar or Hnikar, the fourth Nikuz or Hnikud, the fifth Fjolner, the sixth Oske, the seventh Ome, the eighth Biflide or Biflinde, the ninth Svidar, the tenth Svidrer, the eleventh Vidrer, the twelfth Jalg or Jalk.** Ganglere asks again: Where is this god? What can he do? What mighty works has he accomplished? Answered Har: He lives from everlasting to everlasting, rules over all his realm, and governs all things, great and small. Then remarked Jafnhar: He made heaven and earth, the air and all things in them. Thride added: What is most important, he made man and gave him a spirit, which shall live, and never perish, though the body may turn to dust or burn to ashes. All who live a life of virtue shall dwell with him in Gimle or Vingolf. The wicked, on the other hand, go to Hel, and from her to Niflhel, that is, down into the ninth world. Then asked Ganglere: What was he doing before heaven and earth were made? Har gave answer: Then was he with the frost-giants.&#xA;&#xA;Odin did produce [a great number of sons][2], but he certainly didn't father every god in Norse mythology. And although he did have a hand in the creation of man, he wasn't the only god involved in it. Hoenir and Lodurr also played a role in the tale of Ask and Embla. &#xA;&#xA;Why Allfather then? I think it would be a fair to assume that the epithet is more of an honorific title, emphasizing Odin's role as leader of the Aesir, patriarch of gods and men. It is the simpler answer, and the one that would be correct even if there was a deeper meaning to the name.&#xA;&#xA;That said, at least four of the Aesir (Heimdallr, Hod, Tyr, Bragi) are only mentioned as sons of Odin by Snorri. Whether this is by accident or a conscious effort to emphasize Odin's role as a father figure and elevate him even further from the rest of the gods is anyone's guess. But a case could perhaps be made that Snorri's general tendency of presenting Odin as creator and omnipotent may be a sign of Christian influence. Placing Odin firmly above everyone and everything else could possibly be a step towards reconciling the Norse and Christian traditions. &#xA;&#xA;Lastly, the epithet may very well be a reminder of Odin's simpler past. Tacitus records Odin worship amongst the Germanic people in the late 1st century, and for all we know Odin may have indeed been the father of all gods of a presumably far simpler Germanic pantheon. &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_names_of_Odin&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sons_of_Odin" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21490" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2143" RevisionGUID="3400ca72-b9fc-4bf4-85ef-6bea9ab91bb2" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="I love this story! According to good ol' Wiki, which is sourced, this story comes from an &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.heimskringla.no/wiki/Lokrur_I-IV&quot;&gt;Icelandic rímur cycle.&lt;/a&gt; It is also cited in the *Gylfaginning*. &#xA;&#xA;Your story and the rest of it are from the &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lokrur#Third_r.C3.ADma&quot;&gt;third and fourth&lt;/a&gt; rímas, emphasis mine:&#xA;&#xA;&gt;As Thor and his companions approach Útgarða-Loki's fotress they face a strong locked fortress gate (v. 3-6). Unable to open it, they manage to slip through the grating between the bars (v. 7). They go into the hall and Thor greets the king (v. 8-11). Útgarða-Loki welcomes them and asks them where they come from, and whether they excel at any game or sport (v. 11-14).&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;Loki offers to compete in eating and an opponent, Logi, is assigned to him (v. 15-16). They both eat meat ferociously, but Logi also swallows the knives and the bones and attempts to bite Loki (v. 17-20). Loki is deemed the loser and Útgarða-Loki asks for a better contestant (v. 21). Þjálfi offers to compete in running and suffers a humiliating defeat against Hugi (v. 22-27).&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;**Thor now wants to compete in drinking,** and Útgarða-Loki has a horn carried into the hall (v. 28-30). Útgarða-Loki says that the custom is to empty the horn in one go, but Thor drinks from it three times with little success (v. 31-36). Útgarða-Loki then asks Thor to lift his cat from the ground, but despite great effort, Thor can only get one of the cat's feet off the ground (v. 37-41). Útgarða-Loki asks him to get back into his seat and tells him that he has been greatly humiliated (v. 41-44).&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;Thor now offers to wrestle anyone who will challenge him (v. 2). Útgarða-Loki says he has a mother who once knew how to wrestle, though she is not in good health anymore (v. 3). The woman arrives, large and old, and starts wrestling with Thor (v. 4-5). Thor cannot resist her and falls to his knee (v. 5-8). The woman goes away, but Thor says he wants to go home to Ásgarðr (v. 9).&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;Útgarða-Loki says he will lead him away from the fortress and then explains to him that he has deceived him (v. 10-11). A cryptic verse explains that the bag of provisions was sealed with trickery (v. 12). When Thor threw his hammer at Skrímnir, revealed to be the same person as Útgarða-Loki, the blow was blocked by a mountain or it would have killed him (v. 13). Loki lost the eating contest to fire (v. 14). **The drinking horn had its end out in the sea and Thor's drinking from it has resulted in the tides** (v. 15-16). The cat which Thor tried to lift was actually Miðgarðsormr *[the serpent which encircles the world — LI]* and the woman he wrestled was Elli, old age (v. 17-18). Útgarða-Loki curses the Æsir and disappears (v. 19-20). The last verse of the cycle gives it the name Lokrur (v. 21).&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21491" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2148" RevisionGUID="a8717f9b-6e62-4c5e-af70-7eeb15ca704b" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The site [Poinsettia Facts](http://extension.illinois.edu/poinsettia/facts.cfm) associates the flower with Christmas: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; - No flower says Christmas like the beautiful poinsettia. Learn a few facts about this traditional Christmas plant.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; - Today the plant is known in Mexico and Guatemala as &quot;&quot;La Flor de la Nochebuena&quot; (Flower of the Holy Night, or Christmas Eve).&#xA;&#xA;What is the origin of this connection?  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21492" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2151" RevisionGUID="a958c71a-99f8-4320-8f07-f70bc4c937b0" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="# Abhartach (Ireland)&#xA;&#xA;Irish folklore speaks of [Abhartach](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abhartach), a dwarf who rose from the dead multiple times after being slain. In [*The Origin and History of Irish Names of Places*](https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Origin_and_History_of_Irish_Names_of.html?id=OowJAAAAIAAJ) (c. 1871), Patrick Weston Joyce relates the myth:&#xA;&gt; This dwarf was a magician, and a dreadful tyrant, and after having perpetrated great cruelties on the people he was at last vanquished and slain by a neighbouring chieftain; some say by Fionn Mac Cumhail. He was buried in a standing posture, but the very next day he appeared in his old haunts, more cruel and vigorous than ever. And the chief slew him a second time and buried him as before, but again he escaped from the grave, and spread terror through the whole country. The chief then consulted a druid, and according to his directions, he slew the dwarf a third time, and buried him in the same place, with his head downwards; which subdued his magical power, so that he never again appeared on earth. The laght raised over the dwarf is still there, and you may hear the legend with much detail from the natives of the place, one of whom told it to me.&#xA;&#xA;Abhartach has been compared to Dracula many times over; I am not aware of any writings by Bram Stoker that confirm this hypothesis. My understanding is that  vampire legends stem primarily from the folklore of Eastern Europe, but it's entirely possible that Abhartach could have contributed to *Dracula*.&#xA;&#xA;# Knockers (Cornwall and Ireland)&#xA;&#xA;[Knockers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knocker_(folklore)) - also known as tommyknockers - are mine spirits originating from Cornwall and Ireland. While legends differ, the consensus is that they are mischievous creatures, who can help or harm miners, especially before cave-ins or collapses. [Some believed them to be spirits of dead miners](https://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/res/Education_in_BLM/Learning_Landscapes/For_Kids/History_Mystery/hm3/the_tommyknockers.html), come back to life as small, leprechaun-like creatures. The connection to what you're looking for is admittedly vague, but I thought they were worth including." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21493" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2164" RevisionGUID="ec6b9a0b-ad54-47e8-bfa3-cbef6f5cfc5c" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="As far as I can tell, the modern-day theory for the connection between Phoenician gods and the Greek Titans coms from [*Atlantis, the Antediluvian World*](http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/ataw/ataw403.htm), written in 1882 by Ignatius Donnelly. Donnelly attempted to draw parallels between several different mythologies and historical accounts, and in doing so prove that the lost continent of Atlantis actually existed. As should be obvious, this makes most of his conclusions dubious, at best.&#xA;&#xA;Donnelly writes&#xA;&gt; Not alone were the gods of the Greeks the deified kings of Atlantis, but we find that the mythology of the Phœnicians was drawn from the same source.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; For instance, we find in the Phœnician cosmogony that the Titans (Rephaim) derive their origin from the Phœnician gods Agrus and Agrotus. This connects the Phœnicians with that island in the remote west, in the midst of ocean, where, according to the Greeks, the Titans dwelt.&#xA;&#xA;Note that &quot;Rephaim&quot; appears to be an attempt to connect the Titans with the [Rephaites](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rephaite), giants which appear in Hebrew texts. This is another indication of the book's attempt to find similarities between different religions and mythologies. For this reason, I'd be doubtful of the connection.&#xA;&#xA;*Atlantis, the Antediluvian World* is not listed among the sources on [the page you link to](http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Titanes.html), but I honestly can find no other source of the Titan-Phoenician connection (not that there isn't one, just that most mentions are exact quotes of Donnelly). There are definitely parallels between Canaanite mythology and ancient Greek mythology, but I can't find any more information on this specific case.&#xA;&#xA;As an interesting note, I've seen some references in passing to Targhizizi and Tharumagi, twin mountains which supposedly hold up the sky, and I suppose those could be connected with Agrus and Agrotus." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21494" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2165" RevisionGUID="9f6f8c98-682e-4fa3-b3e3-aa7a986b5406" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Wikipedia records four distinct Orphic theogonies: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; - The &quot;Protogonos Theogony&quot;, lost, composed c. 500 BC which is known through the commentary in the Derveni papyrus and references in classical authors (Empedocles and Pindar).  &#xA;&gt; - The &quot;Eudemian Theogony&quot;, lost, composed in the 5th century BC. It is the product of a syncretic Bacchic-Kouretic cult.&#xA;&gt; - The &quot;Rhapsodic Theogony&quot;, lost, composed in the Hellenistic age, incorporating earlier works. It is known through summaries in later neo-Platonist authors.&#xA;&gt; - Orphic Hymns. 87 hexametric poems of a shorter length composed in the late Hellenistic or early Roman Imperial age.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Orphism (religion). (2016, November 30). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 08:34, November 30, 2016, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Orphism_(religion)&amp;oldid=752254631 &lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;And there's at least one more we know of, attributed to Hieronymus and Hellanicus. &#xA;&#xA;What are the main differences - if any - of these theogonies?&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21495" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2166" RevisionGUID="48fe4b50-dfb2-477c-9ceb-9424e6503b98" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Greek mythology is full of stories where gods would disguise themselves as humans, beasts or elements to deceive humans. Especially with Zeus, this appears to be a favourite plot element. A particularly interesting story of Hermes disguising as Phanes, the protogonos of the Orphic tradition, appears in Nonnus' Dionysiaca:&#xA;&#xA;&gt;  Here behind the many keys and seals of the palace allseeing Hera spied him with her infallible eyes, guarded by Mystis in that hidden corner of the house. Then she swore by the infernal water of after avenging Styx, that she would drown the house of Ino in a flood of innumerable woes. Indeed she would have destroyed the son of Zeus; but Hermes caught him up and carried him to the wooded ridge where Cybele dwelt. Moving fast, Hera ran swiftshoe on quick feet from high heaven; but he was before her, and assumed the eternal shape of firstborn Phanes. Hera in respect for the most ancient of the gods, gave him place and bowed before the radiance of the deceiving face, not knowing the borrowed shape for a fraud. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Nonnus, Dionysiaca, Book 9. Translated by Rouse, W H D. Loeb Classical Library Volumes 344, 354, 356. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press, 1940&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;The story of a god taking the form of another, mightier god is a departure from the pattern of Zeus transforming to one animal or another to impregnate his latest infatuation. This particular trick allowed Hermes to achieve an otherwise impossible task: to deceive the &quot;allseeing&quot; Hera, with her &quot;infallible eyes&quot;.&#xA;&#xA;However, fascinating as the story might be, it raises the question of what's stopping any god from talking the form of a mightier one and achieving whatever they want. Do we know of other stories of gods taking the form of another god? If so, did those stories limit the ability in any way? &#xA;&#xA;Or is Nonnus' story just a piece of bad storytelling? &#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21496" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2176" RevisionGUID="d3765d21-1901-4b0e-a648-1cdedcf3c0bf" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="A possible candidate for the story you have in mind is the legend of Lycaon: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; In Greek mythology, Lycaon (/laɪˈkeɪɒn/; Greek: Λυκάων) was a king of Arcadia, son of Pelasgus and Meliboea, who, in the most popular version of the myth, tested Zeus by serving him the roasted flesh of his son Nyctimus, in order to see whether Zeus was truly omniscient. In return for these gruesome deeds, Zeus transformed Lycaon and his offspring into the forms of a wolf; Nyctimus was restored to life.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Lycaon (Arcadia). (2016, December 12). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 21:11, December 12, 2016, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lycaon_(Arcadia)&amp;oldid=754471710&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;[Callisto][1], Lycaon's daughter by some accounts, was also transformed to an animal - a bear this time. You may find more details about the myths, including lists of sources, on the excellent resource theoi.com: &#xA;&#xA;- http://www.theoi.com/Heros/Lykaon.html&#xA;- http://www.theoi.com/Heroine/Kallisto.html&#xA;&#xA;The story of the [Neuri people][3] - as told by Herodotus - may also be of interest:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The Neuri follow Scythian customs; but one generation before the advent of Darius' army, they happened to be driven from their country by snakes; for their land produced great numbers of these, and still more came down on them out of the desolation on the north, until at last the Neuri were so afflicted that they left their own country and lived among the Budini. It may be that these people are wizards; for the Scythians, and the Greeks settled in Scythia, say that once a year every one of the Neuri becomes a wolf for a few days and changes back again to his former shape. Those who tell this tale do not convince me; but they tell it nonetheless, and swear to its truth.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; [Herodotus, The Histories (4.105)](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0016.tlg001.perseus-eng1:4.105), with an English translation by A. D. Godley. Cambridge. Harvard University Press. 1920&lt;/sub&gt; &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callisto_(mythology)&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuri" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21497" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2147" RevisionGUID="53db88a5-f334-4841-98ff-f17dc4a9cf5e" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="I'm not aware of a story that could possibly be a basis for the white walkers, but it could be argued that a zombie story exists in the second branch of the Mabinogi, the tale of Branwen ferch Llŷr. A key element of the tale is the [Pair Dadeni][1], a magical cauldron able to revive the dead:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; &quot;And I will enhance the atonement,&quot; said Bendigeid Vran, &quot;for I will give unto thee a cauldron, the property of which is, that if one of thy men be slain to-day, and be cast therein, to-morrow he will be as well as ever he was at the best, except that he will not regain his speech.&quot; And thereupon he gave him great thanks, and very joyful was he for that cause.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Mabinogion, translated by Lady Charlotte Guest&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Eventually, the cauldron is gifted to Matholwch, King of Ireland and Branwen's husband. When Bendigeidfran sails to Ireland to rescue Branwen from her husband's cruelty, in the main confrontation of the story, the Irish use the cauldron to replenish their ranks: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Then the Irish kindled a fire under the cauldron of renovation, and they cast the dead bodies into the cauldron until it was full, and the next day they came forth fighting-men as good as before, except that they were not able to speak. &#xA; &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pair_Dadeni" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21498" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6309" RevisionGUID="afdc9251-cfd9-49d9-bcc8-0eea329688ab" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="There is a Dutch folktale about a hunter who waits for a giant hare. Here is a tentative translation:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; A hunter once had heard rumors about an extraordinarily large hare, which every&#xA;&gt; night around midnight came to a certain field in the region, and some strawlers claimed the animal&#xA;&gt; was bulletproof: no one could hit this giant hare. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; One night, the hunter&#xA;&gt; decided to go and see what was the truth behind what he believed to be a&#xA;&gt; fairy tale. An hour before midnight he arrived there and found himself a&#xA;&gt; hiding place. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; After a while, an ordinary hare appeared, but the hunter&#xA;&gt; didn’t shoot and just waited patiently instead. Half an hour later,&#xA;&gt; another, normal hare passed by in the same way. The hunter still keeps&#xA;&gt; waiting to catch a glimpse of the 'big animal'. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;Then he hears the&#xA;&gt; village clock striking midnight in the distance, and after a few&#xA;&gt; moments he thinks he has been fooled. But what does he hear over&#xA;&gt; there...? Look! There comes a giant hare very calmly jumping straight&#xA;&gt; towards him. Now watch out... Bang! Bang! The hunter fires two shots. But&#xA;&gt; indeed, the invulnerable hare isn’t wounded at all! The animal turns its head as if&#xA;&gt; nothing had happened and shouts mockingly to the hunter: “Hey, are those&#xA;&gt; two little ones far ahead?”&#xA;&#xA;Source: [http://www.verhalenbank.nl/items/show/50265][1]&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.verhalenbank.nl/items/show/50265" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21499" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5039" RevisionGUID="d338d79a-05a9-478c-ad37-3d56eefb160a" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The [Myth of Er][1] from Plato's Republic ([10.614 ff][2]) is likely what you're looking for.&#xA;&#xA;Wikipedia gives a good synopsis, but here is an excerpt from the source material on Perseus, with some added links to provide context on their next life choices:&#xA;&#xA;&gt;He said it was a strange, pitiful, and ridiculous spectacle, as the choice was determined for the most part by the habits of their former lives. He saw the soul that had been Orpheus’, he said, selecting the life of a swan, because from hatred of the tribe of women, [owing to his death at their hands][3], it was unwilling to be conceived and born of a woman. He saw the soul of [Thamyras][4] choosing the life of a nightingale; and he saw a swan changing to the choice of the life of man, and similarly other musical animals.  &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;The soul that drew the twentieth lot chose the life of a lion; it was the soul of [Ajax, the son of Telamon][5], which, because it remembered the adjudication of the arms of Achilles, was unwilling to become a man. The next, the soul of [Agamemnon][6], likewise from hatred of the human race because of its sufferings, substituted the life of an eagle. Drawing one of the middle lots the soul of [Atalanta][7] caught sight of the great honors attached to an athlete's life and could not pass them by but snatched at them.  &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;After her, he said, he saw the soul of [Epeius, the son of Panopeus][8], entering into the nature of an arts and crafts woman. Far off in the rear he saw the soul of the buffoon [Thersites][9] clothing itself in the body of an ape. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;And it fell out that the soul of [Odysseus][10] drew the last lot of all and came to make its choice, and, from memory of its former toils having flung away ambition, went about for a long time in quest of the life of an ordinary citizen who minded his own business...&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Plato *The Republic* [10.620a-c][11]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;After making the choices and having them affirmed by the Fates, the soul must forget their former life before being reborn:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; And after it had passed through that, when the others also had passed, they all journeyed to the Plain of Oblivion, through a terrible and stifling heat, for it was bare of trees and all plants, and there they camped at eventide by the [River of Forgetfulness][12], whose waters no vessel can contain. They were all required to drink a measure of the water, and those who were not saved by their good sense drank more than the measure, and each one as he drank forgot all things.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: Plato *The Republic* [10.621a][13]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_Er#Er's_tale&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0168%3Abook%3D10%3Asection%3D614a&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orpheus#Death&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thamyris&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_the_Great&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agamemnon&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atalanta&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epeius&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thersites&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odysseus&#xA;  [11]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0168%3Abook%3D10%3Asection%3D620a&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethe&#xA;  [13]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0168%3Abook%3D10%3Asection%3D621a" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21500" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5042" RevisionGUID="58cdcd46-5648-4f07-b607-1011c9278c54" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In the modern day, leprechauns are usually associated with a highly rigid depiction: wearing green, hat, buckled shoes, red beard, pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. &#xA;&#xA;Some parts of this may come from stereotypes of Irish people (probably the beard and the green clothing to some extent), and some come from folklore. For instance, in *Fairy and Folktales of the Irish Peasantry*, Yeats quotes a poem by Allingham, which clearly gives us the gold: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; This keen miser-fairy hath, &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;Hid in mountains, woods, and rocks, &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;Ruin&#xA;&gt; and round-tow'r, cave and rath, &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;And where the cormorants build;&#xA;&gt; From times of old &#xA;&gt;Guarded by him; &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;Each of them fill'd &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;Full to the brim&#xA;&gt; With gold!&#xA;&#xA;The buckles are also mentioned here, although they are silver. &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Silver buckles to his hose.&#xA;&#xA;As are some other aspects of the genteel dress. &#xA;&#xA;However, I can't find any mention of a rainbow, and I can't think of any particular reason for it to become associated with Irish fairies of any sort.&#xA;&#xA;What is the origin of the association of leprechauns with rainbows? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21501" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5054" RevisionGUID="cf856d24-aa97-4e6d-9681-316e8f9fa76b" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="I came across this quote from Jordan Peterson:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Well what would you want to be king? You could say king of the world or king of your own soul: What do you wanna subordinate yourself to. How 'bout your heroic willingness to encounter the unknown and articulate it and share that with people. There's no nobler vision than that&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; https://youtu.be/nVlCsILzAXw?t=737&#xA;&#xA;Peterson is an exponent of archetypes and would surely expect to see heroes confronting unknown dangers to win great rewards throughout mythology.&#xA;&#xA;My question is: **Does anyone have a sense of which ancient figure is the best example of a 'willingness to confront the unknown'?**" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21502" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5095" RevisionGUID="c1184359-9a43-4b4f-b5f2-2a57d3de36f7" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Who was in charge? No-one was in charge. &#xA;&#xA;Remember that Odysseus took all of Ithaca's soldiers away with him to Troy ***and none of them made it back***. The only soldiers left were the kids too young to go off to the Trojan War. And these had grown up and saw Penelope as a prize to be claimed. &#xA;&#xA;So really *the suitors **were** the soldiers*, or at any rate the ones to whom lower-born solders held fealty. As Telemachus tells a disguised Athena:&#xA;&#xA;&gt;...**the chiefs from all our islands**, Dulichium, Same, and the woodland island of Zacynthus, **as also all the principal men of Ithaca itself**, are eating up my house under the pretext of paying their court to my mother, who will neither point blank say that she will not marry, nor yet bring matters to an end; so they are making havoc of my estate, and before long will do so also with myself.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;([MIT Internet Classics Archive](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/odyssey.1.i.html), _The Odyssey_, Book I).&#xA;&#xA;Telemachus couldn't make the suitors go away. A newborn when Odysseus left, a child when the suitors started plaguing Penelope, Telemachus was an untested youth at the time Odysseus returned. He is nominally in charge of his father's household, but the suitors had no fear of him. &#xA;&#xA;They had no fear of anyone.  When Telemachus goes before the council, and Halitherses prophesies doom for the suitors, one of them, Eurymachus, says this:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; As for Telemachus, I warn him in the presence of you all to send his mother back to her father, who will find her a husband and provide her with all the marriage gifts so dear a daughter may expect. Till we shall go on harassing him with our suit; for we fear no man, and care neither for him, with all his fine speeches, nor for any fortune-telling of yours. You may preach as much as you please, but we shall only hate you the more.&quot;&#xA;&#xA;_([Ibid, book II](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/odyssey.2.ii.html))_.&#xA;&#xA;Odysseus's father Laertes was once the king. But he was an old man, having retired after passing the crown to his son. And he was pining away for his missing son. When Odysseus sees him for the first time after returning, he remarks on the old man's poor condition, obssessively taking care of his farm, but not himself. So it was unlikely that he would undertake the clearance of his son's household.&#xA;&#xA;It couldn't be Penelope. When it comes to misogyny, ancient Greek society was right up there with the worst of them. There was no question of a woman commanding soldiers (the Amazons being a notable exception, but they fought on the side of Troy). &#xA;&#xA;The only way a woman held status was through her husband. If Odysseus was actually dead, everyone expected Penelope to marry _someone_. &#xA;&#xA;But Penelope did not believe Odysseus was dead, thus her dithering and delaying tactics with weaving the shroud. And for this, she was held up as an example of constancy and virtue. &#xA;&#xA;So with Odysseus actually still alive, the suitors could be gotten rid of ***only if Odysseus himself did it.***&#xA;&#xA;And Odysseus had no intention of giving quarter to any of the ruffians who had disrespected his household and mooched off him for so long:&#xA;&#xA;&gt;&amp;#91;Odysseus&amp;#93; glared at them and said: &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Dogs, did you think that I should not come back from Troy? You have wasted my substance, have forced my women servants to lie with you, and have wooed my wife while I was still living. You have feared neither &amp;#91;God&amp;#93; nor man, ***and now you shall die***.&#xA;&#xA;And later:&#xA;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Though you should give me all that you have in the world both now and all that you ever shall have, I will not stay my hand till I have paid all of you in full. You must fight, or fly for your lives; and fly, not a man of you shall.&quot; &#xA;&#xA;_([Book XXII](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/odyssey.22.xxii.html))_&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21503" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5125" RevisionGUID="6294b792-fdfc-4a94-a813-e698ca60177d" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="From Wikipedia: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; The sanctuary of Apollo Maleatas (Greek: Ἀπόλλων Μαλεάτας) is located on a low hill on Mount Kynortion, east of the sanctuary of Asklepios at Epidaurus. At the peak of the hill was a small Early Helladic settlement, which was never built on in later periods. At the beginning of the Late Bronze Age, an open-air altar was used where animals were sacrificed and votives deposited in the ash. Dedications include votive bronze double axes, bronze swords, and clay animal figurines. There is evidence for cult activity in the Geometric period.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Wikipedia contributors. (2017, August 26). Apollo Maleatas. In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 20:57, September 24, 2018, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Apollo_Maleatas&amp;oldid=797380156&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Unfortunately, the article is very thin on details. What does Maleatas mean, and how did Apollo acquire the epithet? What was the god's connection to the Theatre at Epidaurus?&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21504" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5227" RevisionGUID="0843c108-1dc2-4a32-827f-5de7239afc89" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="You must be referring to the passage in book eight, near verse 75. The passage is rendered as follows in Butler’s translation:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; “The company then laid their hands upon the good things that were before them, but as soon as they had had enough to eat and drink, the muse inspired Demodocus to sing the feats of heroes, and more especially a matter that was then in the mouths of all men, to wit, *the quarrel between Ulysses and Achilles*, and the fierce words that they heaped on one another as they sat together at a banquet. But Agamemnon was glad when he heard his chieftains quarrelling with one another, for Apollo had foretold him this at Pytho when he crossed the stone floor to consult the oracle. Here was the beginning of the evil that by the will of Jove fell both upon Danaans and Trojans. Thus sang the bard, but Ulysses drew his purple mantle over his head and covered his face, for he was ashamed to let the Phæacians see that he was weeping.” &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; (Cited from [Wikisource][1], emphasis is mine; Ulysses is the Latin variant of&#xA;&gt; Odysseus’ name.)&#xA;&#xA;In the dutch translation by Patrick Lateur, the translator says in a note to verse 75: “on this theme, nothing else is known. Perhaps we are dealing with an improvisation by Demodocus. The fact that Odysseus is the subject of the song is not without significance. He is given a special place opposite Achilles, a position he did not even have in the *Iliad*.” (Source: Homeros. *Odyssee: een zwerver komt thuis.* Athenaeum—Polak &amp; Van Gennep, Amsterdam, 2016, p. 525.)&#xA;&#xA;Gregory Nagy expresses another opinion in the third chapter of his book *The Best of the Achaeans* (1999, revised edition, [accessible online][2]). He argues the enmity between Achilles and Odysseus might have been a stock epic theme, to which (subtle) hints can be found in several scenes of the *Iliad*. What was the fight about? Nagy says: “The contrast apparently took the form of a quarrel between the two heroes over whether Troy would be taken by might or by artifice.” (Here, “might”/force is connected with Achilles and “artifice”/stratagems with Odysseus.) You might be interested to read the whole chapter [here][2].&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Odyssey_(Butler)/Book_VIII&#xA;  [2]: https://chs.harvard.edu/CHS/article/display/5440.3-a-conflict-between-odysseus-and-achilles-in-the-iliad" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21505" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5248" RevisionGUID="a10dda0d-dad5-487c-bec5-1d5d7b38f4dd" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="This is not actually a reference to a person, but to a [yuga](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuga) (an era).&#xA;&#xA;In the present days we may be said to live in Kali Yuga, which is said to have started in 3102 BCE with the end of the Mahabharata war. From the Mahabharata text:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Parikshit was a great ruler and looked very well after Hastinapur. But&#xA;&gt; unknown to the Pandavas and Parikshit, a greater threat loomed with&#xA;&gt; the death of Lord Krishna.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; During the ninth day of the Mahabharatha war between the Pandavas and&#xA;&gt; the Kauravas, the third yuga had ended and last yuga - Kali yuga had&#xA;&gt; started. However because of the power of Lord Krishna, Kali could not&#xA;&gt; spread all through the earth....&#xA;&#xA;The Kali (destructive) Yuga is the last era in the Hinduist cycle of time. It follows the Satya (golden, perfect), Treta (some negative), and Dwapara (50% negative) Yugas. It is named after Kali, the Hindu female deity of death and destruction.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21506" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5252" RevisionGUID="cf421f2e-aace-41f6-af8e-382c65a647dd" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Tenes was a son of Apollo or King Cycnus and was falsely accused of forced intercourse. He was found guilty. As punishment, he and his sister were put in a box (much like the legend of Perseus and his mother I noticed) and set a sail.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; However, the chest landed at the island of Leucophrye, which was later renamed Tenedos, and the two survived. The natives of the island pronounced Tenes their king.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; [Tenes][1]&#xA;&#xA;Why would/did the natives of Leucophrye make Tenes king? What did he do?&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenes" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21507" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5259" RevisionGUID="b5eb1788-f024-4882-a5fc-ff93776d0181" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="&lt;h2&gt;He showed up&lt;/h2&gt;&#xA;&#xA;It's a fallacy to treat mythology as a consistent narrative with a single continuity. Lots of stories interact and combine, and the fragments that have survived become what we call &quot;mythology&quot;. &#xA;&#xA;We can get a better handle on this by tracing the references in the Wikipedia article to ancient sources. In some sources, it seems that Leucophrys was deserted before Tenes arrived. &#xA;&#xA;In his telling of the story, Pausanias doesn't mention Tenes being made king:&#xA;&#xA;&gt;Rejected by him &amp;#91;Philonome&amp;#93; falsely accused him before her husband, saying that he had made love to her, and she had rejected him. Cycnus was deceived by the trick, placed Tennes with his sister in a chest and launched it out to sea.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;The young people came safely to the island Leucophrys, and the island was given its present name from Tennes. &#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Pausanias, _Description of Greece_, [10.14.2-3](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0160:book=10:chapter=14), Tr.  W.H.S. Jones and H.A. Ormerod, 1918&lt;/sup&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Pseudo-Appolodorus also fails to mention that there were other inhabitants on the island:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Cycnus believed her, and putting him and his sister in a chest he set them adrift on the sea. The chest was washed up on the island of Leucophrys, and Tenes landed and settled in the island, and called it Tenedos after himself. &#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Pseudo-Appolodorus, _Epitome_, [3.25](http://www.theoi.com/Text/ApollodorusE.html), Tr. J. G. Fraser, Theoi Project, Online Classics Library&lt;/sup&gt;&#xA;&#xA;We don't see the mention of Tenes being made a king until the 1st Century BCE historian Diodorus Siculus. But he tells more than one story:&#xA;&#xA;&gt;Tennes was a son of Cycnus, who had been king of Colonê in the Troad, and was a man who had gained renown because of his high achievements. Gathering together colonists and using as his base the mainland opposite to it, he seized **an uninhabited island** called Leucophrys; this island he portioned out in allotments among his followers, and he founded a city on it which he named Tenedos after himself. ....&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; But we must not omit to mention what the myths of the Tenedians have to tell about Tennes, the founder of the city. Cycnus his father, they say, giving credence to the unjust slanders of his wife, put his son Tennes in a chest and cast it into the sea; this chest was borne along by the waves and brought to shore on Tenedos, and **since Tennes had been saved alive in this astonishing fashion by the providence of some one of the gods**, he became king of the island...&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Diodorus Siculus, _The Library of History_, [Book V, 83](http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Diodorus_Siculus/5D*.html#83.4), Tr. C. H. Oldfather&lt;/sup&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Here Diodorus is saying that Tenedos came from a colonizing expedition to Laucophrys, and the colonists were already led by Tenes. But he allows for the local legend which says the people of Leucophrys making Tenes the king was  solely due to his remarkable survival floating in the chest, a sign of the gods' favor." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21508" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5260" RevisionGUID="0623567a-330f-48ff-8d05-f5aca77c0a98" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="https://www.greekmythology.com/Other_Gods/Minor_Gods/Adonis/adonis.html&#xA;&#xA;&gt; ...However, Persephone later refused to give Adonis back to Aphrodite;&#xA;&gt; this led to a **dispute that was solved by Zeus. As a result, Adonis&#xA;&gt; would spend a third of a year with each goddess, and one third with&#xA;&gt; whoever he wanted; he chose to spend two thirds with Aphrodite.**&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; Adonis died when he was attacked by a wild boar that was sent by&#xA;&gt; Artemis, who was jealous of his hunting skills. A different version of&#xA;&gt; the myth has it that the boar was sent by Ares, as he was the lover of&#xA;&gt; Aphrodite. When he died, Aphrodite poured nectar over his blood, and&#xA;&gt; the flower anemone emerged.&#xA;&#xA;Zeus decreed the *living* Adonis could visit Persephone and leave the Underworld. I wasn't aware of any account where Adonis left the Underworld *after* he died (presuming he went to the Underworld when he died?).&#xA;&#xA;However, found this on Quora:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; https://www.quora.com/How-did-Adonis-become-a-Greek-god&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; Q: How did Adonis become a Greek god?&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; A: Note: If you already know the myth, you can skip to the bottom for&#xA;&gt; the &quot;easy answer&quot;, which is in bold.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; Here's the way I understand it:&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; It all started when Adonis's mother, Myrrha, was turned into a Myrrh&#xA;&gt; tree by Aphrodite, the goddess of love. Adonis, already conceived in&#xA;&gt; his mother's womb, was born from the tree after the incident.&#xA;&gt; Aphrodite, perhaps feeling guilty, sent the poor kid to live with her&#xA;&gt; friend Persephone, goddess of seasons.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; Persephone lived with her husband, Hades, lord of the dead, so Adonis&#xA;&gt; grew up surrounded by the spirits of deceased mortals rather than an&#xA;&gt; actual living family. He eventually grew up to be a fit young man,&#xA;&gt; despite his unusual childhood. Both Aphrodite and Persephone fell in&#xA;&gt; love with him, and eventually their dispute was brought before Zeus,&#xA;&gt; king of the gods.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; It was Zeus's decision that Adonis would spend one third of the year&#xA;&gt; with Aphrodite, one third of the year with Persephone, and one third&#xA;&gt; of the year doing whatever he wanted.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; Aphrodite, being a love goddess, was able to convince Adonis to spend&#xA;&gt; his free time during the year with her as well. This whole scandal led&#xA;&gt; to a lot of tension with a lot of gods, namely:&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; Artemis: As a sworn virgin, Artemis was disgusted by Aphrodite and&#xA;&gt; Persephone's little spat.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; Ares: As Aphrodite's only consistent sweetheart, Ares, was of course,&#xA;&gt; jealous of Adonis.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; Apollo: Aphrodite blinded his son, Erymanthus, when he came upon&#xA;&gt; Aphrodite making love to Adonis in the forest.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; According to which version of the story you're going by, one of the&#xA;&gt; gods sent a boar in order to kill Adonis.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; The boar succeeded, and Aphrodite came too late to be of any help.&#xA;&gt; Where Adonis died, the Anemone flower sprang up, becoming his eternal&#xA;&gt; symbol.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; So, according to Greek mythology, Adonis is not a god.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; Later poets, writers, and some cults, however, mistranslated portions&#xA;&gt; of the text, perhaps believing that every time he went down to the&#xA;&gt; Underworld to be with Aphrodite, he was actually dying, only to be&#xA;&gt; &quot;reborn&quot; four months later.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; According to these cults, Adonis was, as usual, reborn after having&#xA;&gt; been killed by the boar, and continued to live on for eternity, as a&#xA;&gt; god of fertility and desire.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; So, to answer this question:&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; **1.  Technically, going by the original Greek myth, Adonis was just a mortal and died.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; 2.    According to later poets, writers, and cults, however, Adonis was at some point made immortal, and became the god of rebirth, fertility,&#xA;&gt; and desire.**&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; In the end, I think it's a matter of choice, depending on whether or&#xA;&gt; not you think a myth is defined by the original story, or changes as&#xA;&gt; different versions of it pop up.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; Your decision.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21509" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5272" RevisionGUID="c6822b53-e22e-4917-87a7-8691b17d7722" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Renaissance composer Nicola Vicentino set the following text in one of his madrigals:&#xA;&#xA;&gt;Musica prisca caput tenebris modo sustulit altis &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;Dulcibus ut numeris priscis certantia factis&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;Facta tua, Ippolite, excelsum super aethera mittat.&#xA;&#xA;Translation: &#xA;&#xA;&gt;Ancient music has recently raised her head out of the darkness&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;So that, with antique and sweet numbers to compete with ancient deeds,&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;Your great deeds, Hyppolitus, she might send above the heavens.&#xA;&#xA;Who exactly is meant by Hyppolitus? What were his great deeds and why did Vincentino decide on this subject for the madrigal. I haven't been able to find a connection between Hyppolitus and anything musical. I would also appreciate if someone could explain the meaning of the text as a whole." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21510" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5275" RevisionGUID="9aa68ca2-d0e8-4e10-a0f1-d7780a644c64" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="[Babylonian][1]&#xA;&#xA;In the begining of Babylonian mythology, their is a war between the older generation of gods and the newer generation.&#xA;&#xA;&gt;   Apsu and Tiamat's descendents became an unruly crowd. Eventually Apsu, in his frustration and inability to sleep with the clamor, went to Tiamat, and he proposed to her that he slay their noisy offspring. Tiamat was furious at his suggestion to kill their clan, but after leaving her Apsu resolved to proceed with his murderous plan. When the young gods heard of his plot against them, they were silent and fearful, but soon Ea was hatching a scheme. He cast a spell on Apsu, pulled Apsu's crown from his head, and slew him. Ea then built his palace on Apsu's waters, and it was there that, with the goddess Damkina, he fathered Marduk, the four-eared, four-eyed giant who was god of the rains and storms.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The other gods, however, went to Tiamat and complained of how Ea had slain her husband. Aroused, she collected an army of dragons and monsters, and at its head she placed the god Kingu, whom she gave magical powers as well. Even Ea was at a loss how to combat such a host, until he finally called on his son Marduk. Marduk gladly agreed to take on his father's battle, on the condition that he, Marduk, would rule the gods after achieving this victory. The other gods agreed, and at a banquet they gave him his royal robes and scepter.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Marduk armed himself with a bow and arrows, a club, and lightning, and he went in search of Tiamat's monstrous army. Rolling his thunder and storms in front him, he attacked, and Kingu's battle plan soon disintegrated.&#xA;&#xA;Why was Marduk made king before winning the war?&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/CS/CSMarduk.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21511" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5312" RevisionGUID="3dfd9604-8893-415b-94f0-88516245e3ba" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="&gt; This question has two parts. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; **1. Did Queen Heo exist?**&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Is there any evidence that Queen Heo was a historical figure and not just a legend?&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Is there any proof that her [tomb in Korea][1] really houses her body?&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Does she appear in the [Samguk Sagi][2] or any other historical records?&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Is there any archaeological or other tangible evidence for her existence?&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; **2. Where did she come from?**&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Is it more likely that she was Indo-Aryan or Tamil (or Thai)?&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xA;&#xA;*Photo from Tomb in Gimhae, Korea, kindly provided by Professor Emeritus KIM Byung-Mo, senior anthropologist from Hanyang University, author of &quot;Heo Hwang-ok Route: From India to Gaya of Korea&quot;*&#xA;&#xA;Queen [Heo Hwang-ok][4] was the wife of King [Suro of Geumgwan Gaya][5] (death 199 AD).&#xA;&#xA;According to the 13th Century [Samguk Yusa (Memorabilia of the Three Kingdoms)][6] Chronicle she was a Princess of the &quot;Ayuta Kingdom&quot;, said to be a distant country. &#xA;&#xA;It is commonly (and [officially][7]) held to refer to [Ayodhya][8], India, but there are no records of this foreign voyage and marriage in Indo-Aryan history. This theory is based on 1. phonetic similarity, and 2. the twin fish symbol, but both theories don't seem to hold up.&#xA;&#xA;In ancient times the city was called [Saketa][9], not Ayodhya, but the later name did exist in Medieval times when the Chronicle was written.&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][10]][10]&#xA;&#xA;The twin fish symbol, as seen here on a gate to the tomb of King Suro, was used as the emblem of his descendants the [Gim clan of Gimhae][11].&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][12]][12]&#xA;&#xA;The Indian state of Uttar Pradesh (which includes the city of Ayodhya) uses twin fish symbology but:&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][13]][13]&#xA;&#xA;This [Emblem of Uttar Pradesh][14] was [designed in 1916][15] by the Royal Society in the United Kingdom for the (then) United Provinces of Agra and Oudh, and the pair of Matsya fish  represented the former Muslim rulers of Oudh. &#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][16]][16]&#xA;&#xA;The [Nawab of Oudh][17] themselves had **a single fish symbol**, but they were an 18th and 19th Century power *(hundreds of years after the Chronicle was written which itself was hundreds of years after the Queen's existence)*.&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][18]][18]&#xA;&#xA;So that theory of Indian *(Indo-Aryan)* origin seems fundamentally flawed.&#xA;&#xA;There are two other theories as to her origin. Either that she came from the [Ayutthaya Kingdom][19] of Thailand -- another theory that seems flawed because the Thai city was not founded until 1350 CE, after the composition of Samguk Yusa. &#xA;&#xA;**Or that she was Tamil**, from [Ayi][20], a vassal state of the [Pandya Kingdom][21] in present-day [Tamil Nadu, India][22]. The area is today's [Kanyakumari][23].&#xA;&#xA;The ancient Tamil [Pandyan Dynasty][24] ruled from 300 BCE–1650 CE and had a [Twin Fish Flag and Emblem][25]:&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][26]][26]&#xA;[![enter image description here][27]][27]&#xA;[![enter image description here][28]][28]&#xA;&#xA;Kanyakumari is said to have been called Ayuta in ancient times, and the Tamil and Korean language and cultures [are said][29] to have commonalities.&#xA;&#xA;It seems most likely to me that the Tamil theory is the strongest.&#xA;&#xA;Was she Tamil or Indo-Aryan?&#xA;&#xA;&gt; **Notes**&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; There are quite a few interesting Quora discussions on the topic: [Such as this][30].&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; An interesting mitochondrial DNA test from the Royal Gaya tombs is talked about [in this article][31] ([source][32], kindly provided by sempaiscuba◊), showing maternal DNA traceable to South or South East Asian ethnic groups like Indian, Malaysian or Thai.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; “Archaeological evidence indicates that the people of [Tamna][33] [of Jeju Island just under the Southern tip of the Korean Peninsula] were engaging in active trade with Han Dynasty China and Yayoi Japan, South-east-asian nations, with the Tamil Chola dynasty, as well as mainland Korea, by the 1st century AD.” So Tamil-Korean trade links have existed from ancient times.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; [This][34] page showing her tomb mentions expansions on the tomb including that *&quot;with the Tomb of King Suro, the tomb area was expanded in the 28th year of King Sejong’s reign (1446) to include several auxiliary buildings&quot;* and that *&quot;records indicate that the tombs were robbed over a century later during the Imjin War (Japanese Invasion, 1592-1598)&quot;* and *&quot;a headstone and stone tablets erected in 1647 (25th year of King Injo’s reign)&quot;*.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://enjoy-gimhae.org/en/수로왕릉비_영어/?ckattempt=1&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samguk_sagi&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/I6R99.jpg&#xA;  [4]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heo_Hwang-ok&#xA;  [5]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suro_of_Geumgwan_Gaya&#xA;  [6]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samguk_yusa&#xA;  [7]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_of_Heo_Hwang-ok,_Ayodhya&#xA;  [8]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayodhya&#xA;  [9]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saket&#xA;  [10]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/VPAUk.jpg&#xA;  [11]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gim_clan_of_Gimhae&#xA;  [12]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/j9wZp.jpg&#xA;  [13]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/TmVHi.jpg&#xA;  [14]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emblem_of_Uttar_Pradesh&#xA;  [15]: https://m.timesofindia.com/city/lucknow/The-emblem-story/articleshow/201009.cms&#xA;  [16]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/xCfE8.jpg&#xA;  [17]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nawab_of_Awadh&#xA;  [18]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/s5xgn.jpg&#xA;  [19]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayutthaya_Kingdom&#xA;  [20]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ay_kingdom&#xA;  [21]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandya_Kingdom&#xA;  [22]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_Nadu&#xA;  [23]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanyakumari&#xA;  [24]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandyan_dynasty&#xA;  [25]: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Twin_fish_flag_of_Pandyas.svg&#xA;  [26]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/8IXZr.jpg&#xA;  [27]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/mSDpC.jpg&#xA;  [28]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MjDMi.jpg&#xA;  [29]: https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/m.timesofindia.com/city/chennai/Korean-envoy-proud-of-his-Tamil-links/amp_articleshow/53277831.cms&#xA;  [30]: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-relationship-of-Princess-Heo-Hwang-Ok-with-India&#xA;  [31]: https://m.economictimes.com/south-koreans-may-have-indian-genes/amp_articleshow/823181.cms&#xA;  [32]: http://mengnews.joins.com/view.aspx?aid=2457473&#xA;  [33]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamna&#xA;  [34]: http://english.visitkorea.or.kr/enu/ATR/SI_EN_3_1_1_1.jsp?cid=1685172" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21512" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5326" RevisionGUID="e7759609-5591-459a-8d6e-67c6cbee870a" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="There is [a category on Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:African_legendary_creatures) dedicated to this subject, and [Mental Floss][1] has a list of 11 rather interesting creatures of African mythology:&#xA;&#xA; &gt; 1. Grootslang&#xA; &gt;&#xA;&gt; Grootslang is an Afrikaans word meaning &quot;great snake.&quot; The monster of that name lives in a cave called the Wonder Hole in the Richtersveld area of South Africa. The story is that the original Grootslang was found to be too powerful, so the gods subdivided the animal into two species: the elephant and the snake. However, a Grootslang or two escaped this fate and reproduced. The monster can grow up to 60 feet long. Supposedly, its cave is full of diamonds, but no one knows for sure because the Grootslang guards it well. The Grootslang pictured was featured on the Cartoon Network series The Secret Saturdays.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; 2. Inkanyamba&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The Inkanyamba is a huge carnivorous eel-like animal in the legends of the Zulu and Xhosa people of South Africa. The ancient legends say Inkanyambas can control the weather. They are said to have fins and/or flippers and grow to tremendous size. There are actually freshwater eels abundant in South Africa that grow to around six feet long, but that pales in comparison to the stories of the Inkanyamba.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; 3. Kongamato&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; A flying monster called Kongamato in Zambia, Angola, and Congo is described as a flying reptile we may recognize as a pterosaur. It was first described in English by explorer Frank Welland in 1932, although local legend goes back much further. This cryptid lives in rivers and swamps and has a huge wingspan, but no feathers. A similar creature goes by other names in other parts of Africa. Theories on Kongomato sightings range from bad lighting to the possibility that an unknown species may exist in inaccessible places. Of course, the image is familiar to us thanks to Hollywood.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; 4. Impundulu&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The Impundulu or Lightning Bird is a supernatural bird from Pondo, Zulu, and Xhosa folklore. The South African bird is as big as a human and can summon lightning and storms, hence the name. The bird is sometimes a shape shifter that can appear as a human, and sometimes said to be a supernatural familiar that guards a witch or witch doctor. It will attack people and drink their blood. However, parts of the Impundulu or its eggs have medicinal powers. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; 5. Adze&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The Adze is a vampire in the legends of the Ewe people of Ghana and Togo. It takes the form of a firefly, but if you capture one, it will revert to human appearance. This can be dangerous in itself, because in its human form the adze may attack and eat your organs, but it can be defeated. However, in the insect form, the adze will suck your blood while you sleep and spread disease, which is a possible explanation for malarial outbreaks. Its preferred victims are young children. The victim of an adze becomes a witch who is possessed by the adze’s spirit.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; 6. Bili Ape&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; There are plenty of legends of mysterious unknown ape species in Africa. Many of these cryptids are described as something between a chimpanzee and a gorilla. A ghost ape fitting this description is called Ufiti in Malawi. In other areas it became known as the Bondo Mystery Ape, leading to speculation that there was an unknown species waiting to be discovered. Reports led researchers to believe it was a large chimpanzee species that behaved more like gorillas. Various expeditions tried to find this species in Central Africa since skulls were found near the village of Bili in 1908. In the 21st century, evidence of a large subspecies of chimpanzee was found and the apes were later observed in the Bili forest of the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Now called the Bili Ape, they are classified as a subspecies of chimp.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; 7. Gbahali&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The Gbahali is a reptilian creature of Liberia, resembling a crocodile. It grows to 30 feet long, has a snout shorter than a croc's, and somewhat longer legs. Although this species is not confirmed by science, it is not considered a legendary monster among Liberian hunters, but a real creature they have caught and eaten. It is possible, however, that descriptions are exaggerated. Witnesses were shown a picture of the extinct animal Postosuchus, and they recognized it as the Gbahali. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; 8. Ninki Nanka&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Ninki Nanka is a monster that lives in the Gambia River in Gambia. It is a dragon-like creature with the body of a crocodile, the head of a horse (with horns) and a long neck like a giraffe. And it's huge - 30 to 50 feet long! An expedition in 2006 yielded an object said to be a scale from the monster, but it turned out to be non-biological - possibly a piece of celluloid film.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; 9. Popobawa&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The Popobawa is a fairly recent manifestation reported in Zanzibar and Tanzania. The creature is a demon who appears as a normal human by day, and a one-eyed, bat-winged monster at night. The Popobawa attacks and sodomizes both men and women in the dark of night, and is particularly vicious to those who don't believe in him. Attacks were first reported in 1965 on the island of Pemba. Reports of attacks come every few years, with a large number in 1995 attributed to mass hysteria. Some think that the attacks of the Popobawa can be traced to &quot;waking dreams&quot; or &quot;night terrors,&quot; in which the person experiences hallucinations somewhere in between lucidity and sleep. The name Popobawa in Swahili translates to &quot;bat wing.&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; 10. Mokèlé-mbèmbé&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The Mokèlé-mbèmbé is a cryptid resembling a dinosaur from the Congo River region. The name means &quot;one who stops the flow of rivers&quot; referring to its size. Dozens of expeditions have sought to find this huge creature, but come back with only secondhand accounts and mysterious footprints. The 1995 1985 Disney film Baby is based on the legend of the Mokèlé-mbèmbé.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; 11. Tikoloshe&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; A Tikoloshe (or Tokoloshe) is an evil-spirited gremlin in Zulu mythology. A shaman may send a Tikoloshe to vex his enemies, causing anything from harmless fright to illness or death. Tikoloshes are described as short hairy humanoid figures that can render themselves invisible by swallowing a pebble - all the better to sneak up on their victims.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://mentalfloss.com/article/12818/11-legendary-monsters-africa" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21513" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5328" RevisionGUID="28783302-6553-46b3-80fb-1a77bfae9a62" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="[Wikipedia has an article dedicated to floods in mythology.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth#Claims_of_historicity)&#xA;&#xA;From what I understand of the &quot;Claims of historicity&quot; section in the article, there were many great floods in the wake of the last glacial period which would naturally be associated the wrath of the gods.&#xA;&#xA;Plague and large fires would be rarer in the past, with epidemics not occurring very often until larger communities evolved&#xA;&#xA;&gt; There are several changes that may occur in an infectious agent that may trigger an epidemic. These include:&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; - Increased virulence&#xA;&gt; - Introduction into a novel setting&#xA;&gt; - Changes in host susceptibility to the infectious agent&#xA;&#xA;with bad waste management causing pollution, leading to this:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The conditions which govern the outbreak of epidemics include infected food supplies such as contaminated drinking water and the migration of populations of certain animals, such as rats or mosquitoes, which can act as disease vectors. Certain epidemics occur at certain seasons.&#xA;&#xA;(both citations from [Epidemic, Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemic))&#xA;&#xA;Fires rarely used to spread very far due to geographical features and regular wildfires, as talked about in [this TEDx talk](https://www.ted.com/talks/paul_hessburg_why_wildfires_have_gotten_worse_and_what_we_can_do_about_it), making them less threatening than floods.&#xA;&#xA;I hope this answers your question at least from a scientific point of view." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21514" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5330" RevisionGUID="3cc8fffd-86bc-443e-b568-3412b11fe512" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="[Oxford dictionaries](https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/mytheme) provides us with the following definition:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; *In structuralist anthropology and literary criticism*:&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; each of a set of fundamental generic units of narrative structure (typically involving a relationship between a character, an event, and a theme) from which myths are thought to be constructed.&#xA;&#xA;It is, in effect, a common ground between different mythological stories.&#xA;&#xA;Vampires and Selkies for example might be based on a mytheme of shapeshifting.&#xA;&#xA;Hades and Nirvana may have the mytheme of the afterlife.&#xA;&#xA;I hope this answers your question." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21515" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5332" RevisionGUID="c7d11c17-ae2a-4730-a201-792115cb6444" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="[Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/giant) provides the following definition:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; **Nephilim** (noun)&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; a biblical race of giants or demigods&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; **giant** (noun)&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; **1** : a legendary humanlike being of great stature and strength&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; **2a** : a living being of great size&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; **b** : a person of extraordinary powers&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; **3** : something unusually large or powerful&#xA;&#xA;This would imply that a Nephilim would be a type of giant.&#xA;&#xA;Should you want more information, please make your question more specific.&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21516" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5346" RevisionGUID="3e3c775a-177f-4610-9448-5f3ed009df1c" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="&gt;  Athena blinded the young [Tiresias][1] by covering his eyes with her hands when he surprised her naked. Tiresias' mother, the nymph Chariclo who was dear to Athena and one of her attendants, asked the goddess to restore his sight, but Athena, not being able to do so, cleansed instead his ears in such a way that she caused him to understand the sounds of birds. Athena also gave [Tiresias][1] a staff made of cornel-wood with the help of which he could walk like those who can see.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; It is also said that Athena did not take the sight of young [Tiresias][1]; as the goddess explained to Chariclo, these were the ***old laws of Cronos***, which inflicted the penalty of blindness on any mortal who beheld an immortal without consent.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;Notes: Format of paragraph is my own edit. Words of bold text and italicized are my own edit.&#xA;&#xA;This is the first time I am hearing of the term, &quot;old laws of Cronos.&quot; Where else are they mentioned? What are they?&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.maicar.com/GML/Tiresias.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21517" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5379" RevisionGUID="f0ddc687-0307-4544-a2f4-ee520344a5b9" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The mortal [Medea][1], as described in [Wikipedia][2], does not appear to characterize the lines in Alexander Pope's *Dunciad*:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; As one by one, at dread Medea's strain,&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The sick'ning stars fade off th' ethereal plain.&#xA;&#xA;It's the use of the word *strain* and its multiple meanings that suggests there could have been another aspect of Medea known only to the poet, or there was another meaning of the word back in 1728.&lt;br&gt;&#xA;Is *strain* her willing, or is she singing some dread dirge?&#xA;Her herbal medicines were mostly of a &quot;beneficial&quot; nature, but could she be straining the stars (her enemies?) into some kind of poisonous concoction?&#xA;&#xA; &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2935/why-does-medea-escape-punishment&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medea" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21518" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5388" RevisionGUID="1bde867f-5b62-451d-b83d-a55dcad32cc3" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The first that comes in mind is &#xA;## Hermes ##&#xA;As the emissary and messenger of the gods, he sure has this position because of his unprecedented speed, as his [theoi page][1] lists, his attributes contained winged boots that are of course associated with speed. One of his sacred animals is the hare, well known for its speed.&#xA;&#xA;Actually, even some mere mortal could outrun him, could discover this story thanks to @Tom:&#xA;# Apemosyme #&#xA;Hermes developed a passion about her but could not get to her as she was swifter than the messenger god. He even had to trick her into a trap to rape her. The poor soul ended being killed by her very own brother that could not believe the way she became pregnant (source [Theoi.com][2]):&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 3. 14 (trans. Aldrich) (Greek mythographer C2nd A.D.) :&#xA;&quot;[Althaimenes grandson of Minos] left Krete with his sister Apemosyne and went to a certain place on Rhodes . . . Not long after that he became the murderer of his sister. For Hermes developed a passion for Apemosyne; proving unable to catch her as she ran from him (she was swifter of foot than Hermes!), he strewed some newly stripped hides along the road, on which she slipped as she was returning from the spring. He then raped her. When she disclosed to her brother what had happened, Althaimenes took her story about the god to be an excuse, and killed her with a kick of his foot.&quot;&#xA;&#xA; &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;While talking about messenger of Gods, we can talk about the ones that had this job during the Titanomachy:&#xA;## Iris and Arke ##&#xA;[Iris][3] was the messenger of the Olympian gods during this period.&#xA;&#xA;And her twin, [Arke][4] chose to support the other side, the titans, in this conflict.&#xA;Thanks @Spencer for bringing theses two deities up!&#xA;&#xA;Another good competitor would be &#xA;## Helios ##&#xA;The sun titan-god that dedicates each day driving his chariot across the sky. But its speed depends on his horses then.&#xA;&#xA;Another Mythologic one but not a god&#xA;## Ajax ##&#xA;Who is said to fight a whole army alone while the front line is on many different [warships][5], which means he can leap from boat to boat as a dazzling speed. In his characteristics we can find [swift][6]&#xA;&#xA;And if you want one historical but still epic if not mythic guy, you can count on&#xA;## Pheidippides &#xA;Who was a simple [herald][7] who ran from Marathon to announce their victory over Persia to Athenians. He died heroically right after the announcement (Adrenalin, you'll say). This story later inspired the Marathon sport discipline.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/HermesTreasures.html&#xA;  [2]: https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/HermesLoves.html#Apemosyne&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iris_(mythology)&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arke&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_the_Great#Trojan_War&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epithets_in_Homer#Individuals&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pheidippides" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21519" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5389" RevisionGUID="54ca78a2-876d-42af-816c-ac7dc1e8dc24" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="**As to wether there is a god specifically for clones, the answer would be no.**&#xA;&#xA;Since there was no such thing as cloning in ancient times they did not have a deity or creature for it (just like there is no such thing as an ancient god of automobiles or smartphones). &#xA;&#xA;Although some creatures and deities have the power to clone themselves a specific god for cloning does not exist. If you where to search for a duplicitous deity of creature the list would be substantially bigger.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;The closest answer to be found is the Hindu [Raktabīja][1]&#xA;&#xA;&gt; In Hindu mythology, Raktabīja was an [asura][2] (loosely translated as&#xA;&gt; demon) who fought with [Shumbha and Nishumbha][3] against Goddess [Durga][4] and&#xA;&gt; Goddess [Kali][5] or Goddess [Chamunda][6]. Raktabīja had a boon that whenever a&#xA;&gt; drop of his blood fell on the ground, **a duplicate** Raktabīja would be&#xA;&gt; born at that spot (rakta=blood, bīja=seed; &quot; **He for whom each drop of&#xA;&gt; blood is a seed**&quot;). According to some sources, Raktabija was, in his&#xA;&gt; previous birth, Rambhasura, king of demons and the father of&#xA;&gt; [Mahishasura][7].&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; The eighth chapter of the [Devi Mahatmya][8], raktabIja-vadh, focuses on&#xA;&gt; Ambika's battle with Raktabīja as part of her battle against the&#xA;&gt; asuras Shumbha and Nishumbha, who had disenfranchised the gods from&#xA;&gt; heaven. Raktabīja was wounded, but drops of blood falling on the&#xA;&gt; ground created innumerable other Raktabījas, and [Ambika][9] and the&#xA;&gt; [Matrikas][10] were in difficulty. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;At this point, the Goddess Kali joined&#xA;&gt; the battle, who stretched her tongue over the earth and licked up each&#xA;&gt; drop of blood pouring from Raktabīja's body while other goddesses&#xA;&gt; wounded him. Kali devoured his duplicates into her gaping mouth. This&#xA;&gt; form who drank the demon's blood is also called Raktheshwari.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raktab%C4%ABja&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asura&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumbha_and_Nisumbha&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durga&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamunda&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahishasura&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devi_Mahatmya&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambika_(goddess)&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrikas" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21520" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5015" RevisionGUID="702b2ca3-454c-4c52-9c8b-f8387f8d26b2" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="When Hermes arrives on Ogygia, she asks why he is visiting here: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Why have you come to see me, Hermes - honored, and ever welcome - for you do not visit me often?...&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; [Retrieved, paragraph 7][1]&#xA;&#xA;Hermes responds it is of no accord of his own and that Zeus sent him: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; ...Nevertheless I had to come, for none of us other gods can cross Zeus, nor transgress his orders [his noos]. He says that you have here the most ill-starred of all those who fought nine years before the city of King Priam and sailed home in the tenth year after having sacked it. **On their way home [nostos] they erred against Athena**, who raised both wind and waves against them, so that all his brave companions perished, and he alone was carried here by wind and tide. ...&quot;  &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; [Retrieved, paragraph 9][1] *Note: Emphasis in bold is my own.*&#xA;&#xA;How did &quot;they&quot; err against Athena? What did they do? What happened?&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hom.%20Od.%205&amp;lang=original" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21521" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4993" RevisionGUID="2f77f513-6e4b-4895-940e-84f27ac3bb0e" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Hel... is the most general name for the underworld where many of the dead dwell.&#xA;&#xA;That said, there were other realms for the dead (Valhalla, Folkvang, etc.).&#xA;&#xA;&gt; ... apart from the fact that Hel and Hell are both realms of the dead located beneath the ground, the two concepts have nothing in common.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; ...where one goes after death isn’t any kind of reward for moral behavior or pious belief, or punishment for immoral behavior or impious belief. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The dead in Hel spend their time doing the same kinds of things that Viking Age men and women did: eating, drinking, fighting, sleeping, and so forth. It wasn’t a place of eternal bliss or torment as much as it was simply a continuation of life somewhere else.&#xA;&#xA;Quotes from &#xA;[Norse Mythology for Smart People][1].&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://norse-mythology.org/cosmology/the-nine-worlds/helheim/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21522" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4977" RevisionGUID="6a970581-c23e-4a4a-9abb-b25eb82d8b8b" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="From [theoi.com][1]: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; KALLIGENEIA (Calligeneia) was the nymph nursemaid of the goddess Demeter and her daughter Persephone. She was worshipped as a goddess of the Eleusinian Mysteries. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Kalligeneia was perhaps the Naiad-nymph of the sacred Kallikhoros (Callichorus) spring of Eleusis. Alternatively her name might simply be a title of the earth-goddess Gaia.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheKalligeneia.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21523" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4943" RevisionGUID="2f4cfb35-dc95-4c57-b426-a8d4bef00fa8" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The Greeks had a myth on vampires found in Delphi scriptures.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; [That evening he walked to the pond and found a swan which he then killed and offered to Artemis who then appeared to him. She had been pleased with his loyalty and service to her and decided to to make him one last deal. Ambrogio could touch Selene just once-to drink her blood. This act would kill Selene’s mortal body but would guarantee that they would stay together forever.][1]&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; [The Delphi scriptures offer a solid validation of ancient beliefs and evidence.][1]&#xA;&#xA;The Babylonians had a vampire as well, which is adopted by Hebrew demonology.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; [Ancient Babylonia had tales of the mythical Lilitu, synonymous with and giving rise to Lilith (Hebrew לילית) and her daughters the Lilu from Hebrew demonology. Lilith was considered a demon and was often depicted as subsisting on the blood of babies. The legend of Lilith was originally included in some traditional Jewish texts: according to the medieval folk traditions, she was considered to be Adam's first wife before Eve.][2]&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; [Scholars are not certain where the character of Lilith comes from, though many believe she was inspired by Sumerian myths about female vampires called “Lillu” or Mesopotamian myths about succubae (female night demons) called “lilin.” Lilith is mentioned four times in the Babylonian Talmud, but it is not until the Alphabet of Ben Sira (c. 800s to 900s) that the character of Lilith is associated with the first version of Creation.][3]&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://authorlyngibson.wordpress.com/2014/09/24/ambrogio-a-greek-vampire-origination-thery/&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampire_folklore_by_region&#xA;  [3]: https://www.thoughtco.com/legend-of-lilith-origins-2076660" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21524" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6290" RevisionGUID="656afb01-0be2-45ac-ba25-5fd7aee3a4b0" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Original 219-222:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; His quidam signis atque haec exempla secuti&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; esse apibus partem divinae mentis et haustus&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; aetherios dixere; **deum** namque ire per omnes&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; terrasque tractusque maris caelumque profundum.&#xA;&#xA;The word **deum** here is 2nd genitive masculine plural, so should be translated as *of the gods*.&#xA;&#xA;Rhoades (1841-1923) has been described as &quot;a conventional poet who wrote of imperial war in a conservative idiom and a grandiloquent style&quot;. As many Western translators before him, he probably made his translation align with the Judeo-Christian pantheon. &#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21525" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3325" RevisionGUID="3176b430-df3d-49b7-ba6f-b23fdd532f5f" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="According to Diodorus Siculus, it was Herakles favour of Theseus that persuaded Hades to release him:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Peirithoos now decided to seek the hand of Persephone in marriage, and when he asked Theseus to make the journey with him Theseus at first endeavoured to dissuade him and to turn him away from such a deed as being impious; but since Peirithoos firmly insisted upon it Theseus was bound by the oaths to join with him in the deed. And when they had at last made their way below to the regions of Haides, it came to pass that because of the impiety of their act they were both put in chains, and although Theseus was later let go by reason of the favour with which Herakles regarded him, Peirithoos because of the impiety remained in Haides, enduring everlasting punishment; but some writers of myths say that both of them never returned.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Diodorus Siculus, Library of History 4.63.4 (trans. Oldfather)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Pseudo-Apollodorus tells more or less the same story, but doesn't attempt to explain why Theseus is allowed to leave:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; As he approached the gates of Haides' realm, he came across Theseus along with Peirithoos (Pirithous), who had courted Persephone with matrimonial intentions and for this reason was held fast as was Theseus. When they saw Herakles they stretched forth their hands as if to rise up with the help of his strength. He did in fact pull Theseus up by the hand, but when he wanted to raise Peirithoos, the earth shook and he let go.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 2. 124 (trans. Aldrich)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;A third version, Plutarch's, diverges significantly from the earlier ones by substituting Hades with the legendary Molossian [Aidoneus][1]. However, it agrees with Diodorus in that Herakles favour is the reason Theseus is released: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; [Theseus] to return the service of Peirithoos, journeyed with him to Epiros, in quest of the daughter of Aidoneus the king of the Molossians. This man called his wife Phersephone, his daughter Kora, and his dog Kerberos, with which beast he ordered that all suitors of his daughter should fight, promising her to him that should overcome it. However, when he learned that Peirithoos and his friend were come not to woo, but to steal away his daughter, he seized them both. Peirithoos he put out of the way at once by means of the dog, but Theseus he kept in close confinement  &#xA;&gt; ...   &#xA;&gt; Now while Herakles was the guest of Aidoneus the Molossian, the king incidentally spoke of the adventure of Theseus and Peirithoos, telling what they had come there to do, and what they had suffered when they were found out. Herakles was greatly distressed by the inglorious death of the one, and by the impending death of the other. As for Peirithoos, he thought it useless to complain, but he begged for the release of Theseus, and demanded that this favour be granted him. Aidoneus yielded to his prayers, Theseus was set free, and returned to Athens, where his friends were not yet altogether overwhelmed.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Plutarch, Life of Theseus 31.2 &amp; 35. 1 (trans. Perrin)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;I think it's safe to say Theseus was lucky to have friends in high places. Further, I think it's important to remember that Pirithous was the one that lusted after Persephone, and that - at least according to Diodorus - Theseus tried to change his mind. The intervention of Herakles is certainly important, but I don't think Hades would have been as easily convinced if it was Theseus who had dared claim his wife.&#xA;&#xA;All that said, it may be worth noting that there's a version of the story - also in Diodorus - where Herakles is allowed to save Pirithous as well: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Herakles then, according to the myths which have come down to us, descended into the realm of Haides, and being welcomed like a brother by Persephone brought Theseus and Peirithoos back to the upper world after freeing them from their bonds. This he accomplished by the favour of Persephone, and receiving the dog Kerberos in chains he carried him away to the amazement of all and exhibited him to men.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Diodorus Siculus, Library of History 4.26.1  (trans. Oldfather)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Oh, well.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aidoneus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21526" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3355" RevisionGUID="0bbbc369-4297-41b1-93d1-2bf54630daf9" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Apparently, there is a version of the [Pirithous and Theseus story][1] that has Hades trapping the pair in the Underworld by having them sit on the *Chairs of Forgetfulness*:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; This happened, some think, because Theseus was not in Athens but in the Underworld where he had come with his accomplice Pirithous so that he could marry the goddess of his dreams: Persephone. Many reproaches could be made against these two friends, except that they lacked audacity. And it is on account of this quality, they say, that Zeus bade them in a dream to go to the realm of shadows, and there ask Hades for the hand of Persephone. In the Underworld they were cheerfully received by Hades, who bade them to take a sit. Having done as they were told, these two disoriented middle-aged gentlemen saw themselves grow fast to the Chair of Forgetfulness, being held there either because the rock grew to their flesh, or else by coils of serpents. It has also been told that they were stretched out and tortured by the ERINYES.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Greek Mythology Link: Pirithous][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; --- &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; According to some version, Hades, the king of underworld, cheerfully welcomed Pirithous and Theseus in the underworld and asked them to take a sit.  When they sat on the chair, they saw themselves grow fast to the chair of forgetfulness, being held there either because the rock grew to their flash or by coils of snakes. Pirithous and Theseus were stretched out and tortured by Erinyes. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Greek Mythology: Theseus and Pirithous][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;However, none of the online references to the story I've found mention its source. Help? Where does this story come from?&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirithous#Punishment_in_Underworld&#xA;  [2]: http://01greekmythology.blogspot.gr/2015/01/theseus-and-pirithous.html&#xA;  [3]: http://www.maicar.com/GML/Pirithous.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21527" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3378" RevisionGUID="e20c590c-a898-4a13-b7e2-966c90e005b7" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The original meaning (and spelling) of daemon was [inferior god][1] (lesser deity). Kind of like titan meaning [Stretchers or Strainers][2]. Daemones are also called personified spirits.&#xA;&#xA;Examples:&#xA;&#xA; - Agathodaemon is called a daemon.&#xA; - Cacodaemon is called a daemon. &#xA; - Sophrosyne is called a goddess.&#xA; - Mnemosyne is called a goddess.&#xA; - Phobos and Demos are called both.&#xA; - Pseudologos is called a deamon.&#xA; - Nike is called a goddess.&#xA;&#xA;What are some called one but not the other?&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://daemonpage.com/socrates-daimon.php&#xA;  [2]: http://mythagora.com/bios/ouranos.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21528" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3394" RevisionGUID="59c8af4f-fd77-4940-ab5f-0b5c690a5128" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="[Pliny the Younger][1] tells the story of a haunted house in Athens, featuring the stoic [Athenodorus Cananites][2], in his [letter to Sura][3]: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Now the following story, which I am going to tell you just as I heard it, is it not more terrible than the former, while quite as wonderful? There was at Athens a large and roomy house, which had a bad name, so that no one could live there. In the dead of the night a noise, resembling the clashing of iron, was frequently heard, which, if you listened more attentively, sounded like the rattling of chains, distant at first, but approaching nearer by degrees: immediately afterwards a spectre appeared in the form of an old man, of extremely emaciated and squalid appearance, with a long beard and dishevelled, hair, rattling the chains on his feet and hands.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The distressed occupants meanwhile passed their wakeful nights under the most dreadful terrors imaginable. This, as it broke their rest, ruined their health, and brought on distempers, their terror grew upon them, and death ensued. Even in the daytime, though the spirit did not appear, yet the impression remained so strong upon their imaginations that it still seemed before their eyes, and kept them in perpetual alarm. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Consequently the house was at length deserted, as being deemed absolutely uninhabitable; so that it was now entirely abandoned to the ghost. However, in hopes that some tenant might be found who was ignorant of this very alarming circumstance, a bill was put up, giving notice that it was either to be let or sold. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; It happened that Athenodorus the philosopher came to Athens at this time, and, reading the bill, enquired the price. The extraordinary cheapness raised his suspicion; nevertheless, when he heard the whole story, he was so far from being discouraged that he was more strongly inclined to hire it, and, in short, actually did so. When it grew towards evening, he ordered a couch to be prepared for him in the front part of the house, and, after calling for a light, together with his pencil and tablets, directed all his people to retire. But that his mind might not, for want of employment, be open to the vain terrors of imaginary noises and spirits, he applied himself to writing with the utmost attention. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The first part of the night passed in entire silence, as usual; at length a clanking of iron and rattling of chains was heard: however, he neither lifted up his eyes nor laid down his pen, but, in order to keep calm and collected, tried to pass the sounds off to himself as something else. The noise increased and advanced nearer, till it seemed at the door, and at last in the chamber. He looked up, saw, and recognized the ghost exactly as it had been described to him: it stood before him, beckoning with the finger, like a person who calls another. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Athenodorus in reply made a sign with his hand that it should wait a little, and threw his eyes again upon his papers; the ghost then rattled its chains over the head of the philosopher, who looked up upon this, and seeing it beckoning as before, immediately arose, and, light in hand, followed it. The ghost slowly stalked along, as if encumbered with its chains, and, turning into the area of the house, suddenly vanished. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Athenodorus, being thus deserted, made a mark with some grass and leaves on the spot where the spirit left him. The next day he gave information to the magistrates, and advised them to order that spot to be dug up. This was accordingly done, and the skeleton of a man in chains was found there; for the body, having lain a considerable time in the ground, was putrefied and mouldered away from the fetters. The bones, being collected together, were publicly buried, and thus after the ghost was appeased by the proper ceremonies, the house was haunted no more. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt; Source: [Pliny the Younger (A.D. 62?–c.A.D. 113). Letters. The Harvard Classics. 1909–14.][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;I am not sure if Pliny's story is the _earliest_ ghost story we know of, but I think it includes several elements of the motif you are looking for.&#xA;&#xA;[Lucian][5] also discusses ghosts (and other supernatural beings) in  [Philopseudes][6], albeit in a heavily satirical tone. In one instance, one of the characters introduces the idea that ghosts are the result of a violent death, another favourite element of the ghost story trope: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; &quot;We were only trying,&quot; he said, &quot;to convince this man of adamant that there are such things as supernatural beings and ghosts, and that the spirits of the dead walk the earth and manifest themselves to whomsoever they will.&quot; Moved by the august presence of Arignotus, I blushed, and hung my head. &quot;Ah, but, Eucrates,&quot; said he, &quot;perhaps all that Tychiades means is, that a spirit only walks if its owner met with a violent end, if he was strangled, for instance, or beheaded or crucified, and not if he died a natural death. If that is what he means, there is great justice in his contention.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Works of Lucian of Samosata, Volume III. tr. by H. W. Fowler and F. G. Fowler. Oxford: The Clarendon Press&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Younger&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenodorus_Cananites&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistulae_(Pliny)&#xA;  [4]: http://www.bartleby.com/9/4/1083.html&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucian&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lover_of_Lies" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21529" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3395" RevisionGUID="e1bef8aa-8287-4aab-9d57-091c38ba560e" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="I stumbled upon the Wikipedia article on Madonna Oriente, a mysterious religious figure of 14th century Milan: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Madonna Oriente or Signora Oriente (Lady of the East), also known as La Signora del Gioco (The Lady of the Game), are names of an alleged religious figure, as described by two Italian women who were executed by the Inquisition in 1390 as witches.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The story which they are reported to have told is an elaborate and fantastical tale of occult religious rituals practised at the houses of wealthy individuals in Milan, Italy, where a woman known as the Madonna Oriente, possibly regarded as a goddess by her followers, performed magical acts such as the resurrection of slaughtered animals.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The two women, Sibilla Zanni and Pierina de' Bugatis, were brought before the Inquisition first in 1384, and with their story apparently dismissed as fantasy, were sentenced only to minor penance. When they were investigated again in 1390, however, they were charged with consorting with the Devil, condemned, and executed.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Wikipedia contributors. (2017, July 8). Madonna Oriente. In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 13:27, February 24, 2018, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Madonna_Oriente&amp;oldid=789686368&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Unfortunately, the article is very light on sources. Where can I find more details on the &quot;fantastical tale of occult religious rituals&quot; that cost the two women their lives? What do we know of the central figure of the story, Madonna Oriente? What was her connection with the east, and what is &quot;the game&quot; attested in her Italian name?&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21530" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4600" RevisionGUID="af50ede2-0db7-4781-bef3-f2820250cdc7" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In the end of Book VI of the Odyssey, Odysseus sends up a pray to Athena, the Greek goddess of Wisdom and Warfare. It then says Athena does not openly acknowledge him. The reason being that she feared Poseidon's wrath.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; [316] So saying, she smote the mules with the shining whip, and they quickly left the streams of the river. Well did they trot, well did they ply their ambling feet, and she drove with care that the maidens and Odysseus might follow on foot, and with judgment did she ply the lash. Then the sun set, and they came to the glorious grove, sacred to Athena. There Odysseus sat him down, and straightway prayed to the daughter of great Zeus: “Hear me, child of aegis-bearing Zeus, unwearied one. Hearken now to my prayer, since aforetime thou didst not hearken when I was smitten, what time the glorious Earth-shaker smote me. Grant that I may come to the Phaeacians as one to be welcomed and to be pitied.”&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; [328] So he spoke in prayer, and Pallas Athena heard him; but she did not yet appear to him face to face, for she feared her father's brother; but he furiously raged against godlike Odysseus, until at length he reached his own land.&#xA;&#xA;Retrieved from [here][1], on: 3/23/2018&#xA;&#xA;Why would Athena fear Poseidon? Isn't Athena stronger than Poseidon?&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.theoi.com/Text/HomerOdyssey6.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21531" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4647" RevisionGUID="2084d381-82d4-4628-8bd5-483dc6dddfdd" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Many cultures have a [flood myth][1]; one explanation is that these were real, localised floods during the end of the [last ice age][2], which were passed down through prehistoric oral traditions and myths.&#xA;&#xA;Likewise, there were other kinds of dramatic climate and environmental changes. During the Neolithic, what's now the Sahara desert was a [savannah supporting human populations][3]. These inhabitants would have experienced the desertification of the area and would have had to migrate to survive.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The [Saharan and Arabia regions'] transition to today's arid climate was not gradual, but occurred in two specific episodes. The first, which was less severe, occurred between 6,700 and 5,500 years ago. The second, which was brutal, lasted from 4,000 to 3,600 years ago. Summer temperatures increased sharply, and precipitation decreased, according to carbon-14 dating. This event devastated ancient civilizations and their socio-economic systems.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; [Science Daily](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/07/990712080500.htm)&#xA;&#xA;Are these events reflected in any myths? Are there any myths depicting desertification, and possibly a mass migration out of a desert?&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_glacial_period&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_Subpluvial" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21532" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4676" RevisionGUID="e6810acc-cc11-4aa7-aaa5-fc67e727e482" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="[Porphyrion][1], the &quot;greatest of the Giants&quot; according to Apollodorus, attempted to rape Hera during the [Gigantomachy][2]: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; But in the battle Porphyrion attacked Hercules and Hera. Nevertheless Zeus inspired him with lust for Hera, and when he tore her robes and would have forced her, she called for help, and Zeus smote him with a thunderbolt, and Hercules shot him dead with an arrow.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Source: [Apollod. 1.6.2][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;The Hellenistic poet [Euphorion][4] also tells a tale of a giant raping Hera. This time, though, the culprit is Eurymedon, a relatively unknown king of giants mentioned in Book 7 of the *Odyssey*. This story could possibly be a retelling of the Porphyrion tale, or even an attempt by Euphorion to flesh out Homer's story.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porphyrion&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giants_(Greek_mythology)#The_Gigantomachy&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0548.tlg001.perseus-eng1:1.6.2&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphorion_of_Chalcis" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21533" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4677" RevisionGUID="4fcced59-d9f5-4162-9084-e3289f2b68cc" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Homer mentions the giant king Eurymedon (&quot;ruling far and wide&quot;) in the *Odyssey* (Book 7.56): &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Nausithous at the first was born from the earth-shaker Poseidon and Periboea, the comeliest of women, youngest daughter of great-hearted Eurymedon, who once was king over the insolent Giants. But he brought destruction on his froward people, and was himself destroyed. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Homer. The Odyssey with an English Translation by A.T. Murray, PH.D. in two volumes. Cambridge, MA., Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann, Ltd. 1919.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Is this a reference to the Gigantomachy? Do we know anything else about this king of the giants? Why is he to blame for the destruction of his people, and how was he himself destroyed?&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21534" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5431" RevisionGUID="16a845d9-29a2-4b08-9781-e96d7f9ab589" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="As @Codosaur Pointed out, Satan is a character that rises up against the supreme deity of the mythology. I would add that in the Christian religion, he comes by many [names][1] I'll start a list here and we'll try to explain some of their signification:&#xA;&#xA; - Lord of the underworld / Lord of [Hell][2] / Lord of this World:&#xA;Satan is supposed to rule over hell, so the afterlife of the &quot;bad guys&quot;, he was put in this role after rebelling against God, it doesn't mean he wants to do it as the [Lucifer TV-shows][3] (That I advise you to watch)&#xA; - [Lucifer / The Morning Star][4]: {Latin}&#xA;Often portrayed as a beautiful archangel and the bringer of light, the illuminator&#xA; - [Mephistopheles][5]: {German}&#xA;Which Etymology seems to come from: &quot;scatterer, disperser&quot;, &quot;plasterer of lies&quot;, &quot;light&quot;, &quot;philis&quot; meaning &quot;loving&quot; maybe meaning &quot;not-light-loving&quot;, it is seen as a parody of Lucifer but I'll mostly just remember it as Lucifer plus a touch of &quot;scatterer of light&quot;.&#xA;&#xA;After theses explanations about some of the names that are attributed to Satan, I want to point out the part where he is supposed to:&#xA;&#xA; - Rebel against the supreme God&#xA; - Scatters the light&#xA; - Be the ruler of the afterlife (Mostly the punishing part)&#xA;&#xA;## Prometheus, before 800BCE ##&#xA;The [titan god][6] of forethought and crafty counsel created the humans on Zeus order. He then tried to improve their life by all means. One of those means implied giving the fire to the humans, this can be seen as the bringer of light (1st point). Doing this angered Zeus, the supreme deity (2nd point).&#xA;&#xA;The timeline here is [this one][7], which states the first records 8th century BCE, thanks @DukeZhou for the correction:&#xA;&#xA;Then I found out about the [Japanese creation myth][8], where we can find two primordial gods:&#xA;## Izanagi and Izanami, ~700BCE ##&#xA;Which share the characteristics of Satan that I described earlier mixed with those of a supreme God. They are the creator of everything (Japan), keep in mind the fire creating (1st point):&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Izanagi and Izanami then created gods and goddesses of the trees, mountains, valleys, streams, winds, and other natural features of Japan. While giving birth to the fire god Kagutsuchi, Izanami was badly burned. As she lay dying, she produced more gods and goddesses. Other deities emerged from the tears of her grief-stricken husband.&#xA;&#xA;Izanagi angered Izanami a bit after her death (2nd point) and after this episode Izanami became the ruler of the Underworld (3rd point):&#xA;&#xA;&gt; When Izanami died, she went to Yomi-tsu Kuni, the land of darkness and death. Izanagi followed her there and tried to bring her back. But Izanami's body had already begun to decay, and she hid in the shadows and told Izanagi that she could not leave. Izanagi could not resist looking at his beloved wife one last time. When he lit a torch and saw her rotting corpse, he fled in terror. Angry that Izanagi had seen her, Izanami sent hideous spirits to chase him. Izanagi managed to escape, and he sealed off the passage to Yomi-tsu Kuni with a huge boulder. Izanami remained there and ruled over the dead.&#xA;&#xA;On the [Wikipedia page][9] about this story, we can read that they are both infuriated against each other, so we can give all the credit of being the &quot;Satan&quot; of this religion to Izanami:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Izanagi burst through the entrance and quickly pushed a boulder to the entrance of Yomi. Izanami screamed from behind this barricade and told Izanagi that, if he left her, she would destroy 1,000 living people every day. He furiously replied that he would give life to 1,500.&#xA;&#xA;For the period where those myth were created, I didn't find something more precise about the oral sharing([1][10], [2][11]):&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The myths of Japanese popular religion derive from oral traditions codified for posterity in two books: the Nihon Shoki, published in 720 CE and the Kojiki written by an official of the Empress Gemmyo between 708 and 714 CE. An additional source, the Kogoshui was written in c. 807 CE by Imibe-no-Hironari who collected together oral traditions omitted from the Nihon Shoki and Kojiki.&#xA;&#xA;## Community Wiki ##&#xA;If someone wants to add a contribution to this, try to keep the original format. I'm also open to its format improvement, based on suggestions.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil#Demons&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer_(TV_series)&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mephistopheles&#xA;  [6]: https://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanPrometheus.html&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus#Oldest_legends&#xA;  [8]: http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Iz-Le/Japanese-Mythology.html&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_mythology#Izanagi_in_the_underworld&#xA;  [10]: https://www.ancient.eu/Izanami_and_Izanagi/&#xA;  [11]: https://owlcation.com/social-sciences/IzanagiandIzunami" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21535" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4688" RevisionGUID="5ffc740d-e04f-4eed-bec0-8053efa7262a" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In a reworking of the *Rumplestiltskin* folktale, novelist Elizabeth Bunce notes the following: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; The anti-Semitic overtones of the Grimm version are deeply disturbing to &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; me&amp;mdash;and should be to any modern audience&amp;mdash;and I have tried&#xA;&gt; to steer well clear from them.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;*A Curse As Dark As Gold*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;There certainly are anti-Semitic Grimm tales, such as &quot;The Jew in the Thorns.&quot; The only thing I can think of that’s possibly relevant in &quot;Rumplestiltskin,&quot; though, is the following portion: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; She first asked, “Is your name Kunz?”&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; “No.”&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; “Is your name Heinz?”&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;“Rumplestiltskin”&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;E.g., perhaps these are stereotypically Jewish names (or Rumplestiltskin itself is?)&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;On the other hand, there are many other possible ways it could invoke stereotypes of Jews, some of which might only be obvious in the original. &#xA;&#xA;**Is Rumplestiltskin supposed to be an anti-Semitic caricature?**&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21536" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4752" RevisionGUID="72069873-078a-412e-afdf-e0997f512597" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="I found this on the Ages of Man Wikipedia article, in the section about Hesiod's Five Ages:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; At the height of this age, humans no longer feel shame or indignation at wrongdoing; babies will be born with gray hair and the gods will have completely forsaken humanity: &quot;there will be no help against evil.&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Wikipedia contributors. (2019, April 17). Ages of Man. In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 11:44, May 8, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ages_of_Man&amp;oldid=892931853 &#xA;&#xA;What is the interpretation for &quot;babies will be born with gray hair?&quot; Did Hesiod mean it literally or as a symbol?&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21537" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4761" RevisionGUID="c14e8749-6daf-42fd-ba85-75d4540bf4a4" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Cupid and Psyche have a happy ending:&#xA;&#xA;&gt;But Cupid, being now recovered from his wound, and not able longer to bear the absence of his beloved Psyche, slipping through the smallest crack of the window of his chamber which happened to be left open, flew to the spot where Psyche lay, and gathering up the sleep from her body closed it again in the box, and waked Psyche with a light touch of one of his arrows. &quot;Again,&quot; said he, &quot;have you almost perished by the same curiosity. But now perform exactly the task imposed on you by my mother, and I will take care of the rest.&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Then Cupid, as swift as lightning penetrating the heights of heaven, presented himself before Jupiter with his supplication. Jupiter lent a favoring ear, and pleaded the cause of the lovers so earnestly with Venus that he won her consent. On this he sent Mercury to bring Psyche up to the heavenly assembly, and when she arrived, handing her a cup of ambrosia, he said, &quot;Drink this, Psyche, and be immortal; nor shall Cupid ever break away from the knot in which he is tied, but these nuptials shall be perpetual.&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Thus Psyche became at last united to Cupid, and in due time they had a daughter born to them whose name was Pleasure.&#xA;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Bulfinch, from Apuleius][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.pitt.edu/~dash/cupid.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21538" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4768" RevisionGUID="4dc94ceb-57b0-4d2d-a399-38678d00b509" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Allow me to clarify. I found an interesting choice words on the Wikipedia article on [Hades][1].&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Hades obtained his wife and queen, Persephone, through abduction at the behest of Zeus.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Retrieved 4/19/2018&#xA;&#xA;It uses the word &quot;behest.&quot; To my understanding, behest means ordered or commanded. If this word is held true in the original, it means not only did Zeus give Hades permission to take Persephone, he gave a divine command as King of the gods.&#xA;&#xA;I ask for an answer that includes the original Greek (or language the original was written in) and a variety of translations of that work for cross comparison reasons.&#xA;&#xA;For simplicity, the extent of the translation should be limited specifically to Hades going to Olympus, asking for Persephone and Zeus's response.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades#Greek_god_of_the_underworld" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21539" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4777" RevisionGUID="10402d52-e967-44aa-b9cb-8f2ba63b2945" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="## The universal themes, which may be found in many mythologies of the peoples of the world&#xA;&#xA;---&#xA;&#xA;- **Love** - for example there is entire category in wikipedia for this theme. [Love and lust goddesses][1] - this is about mythology of different peoples of the world.&#xA;&#xA;- **War** - according to wikipedia (again) count of gods of war is more then gods of love [List of war deities][2]. And in russian too: [Боги войны][3].&#xA;&#xA;- **Food** - it is more complicated theme then two previous. There are [List of fertility deities][4], [Agricultural goddesses][5], and even stories of the food or some relation with it may occur with other gods or mythological  creatures https://mythology.net/?s=food&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Love_and_lust_goddesses&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_deities&#xA;  [3]: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%8F:%D0%91%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B8_%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B9%D0%BD%D1%8B&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fertility_deities&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Agricultural_goddesses" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21540" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4792" RevisionGUID="e4950a8d-7138-4b03-83b7-c03f7cb40d0f" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In Slavic mythology, the image of [Chernobog][1] is not associated with any type of weapon, including a hammer. Chernobog is the embodiment of evil, darkness, misery etc.&#xA;&#xA;Some scientists reconstructed a pair of Belobog/Chernobog, who are opposed to each other as &quot;light/dark&quot;, &quot;good/evil&quot;, &quot;happiness/misery&quot;.&#xA;&#xA;Chernobog, hummer and other Gods, thing and creatures in that novel are author's fantasy and compilation.&#xA;&#xA;---&#xA;&#xA;### UPD:&#xA;&#xA;**Chernobog** - in literal translation &quot;Black God&quot;.&#xA;&#xA;**Belobog** - in literal translation &quot;White God&quot;.&#xA;&#xA;---&#xA;&#xA;In [Norse mythology][2], the mythology of peoples of North Germany and Scandinavia there is a God of thunder, lightning, storms etc, his name is [Thor][3]. His image is associated with hammer - its name is [Mjölnir][4], the one of the most fearsome and powerful weapons in existence, capable of leveling mountains.&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][5]][5]&#xA;&#xA;May be author of that novel mixed up two images from different cultures?&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobog&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_mythology&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mj%C3%B6lnir&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/RDoWi.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21541" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4834" RevisionGUID="2e3b208f-3f1e-4b9b-9480-600fedde76ab" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="&gt; Beyond lay Erebus, which could be taken for a euphonym of Hades, whose own name was dread. There were two pools, that of Lethe, where the common souls flocked to erase all memory, and the pool of Mnemosyne (&quot;memory&quot;), where the initiates of the Mysteries drank instead.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; From [Wikipedia][1], 4/30/2018&#xA;&#xA;The Mysteries refers to a cult of Demeter.&#xA;&#xA;The pool of Mnemosyne is not often mentioned and I can't find much else on it. &#xA;&#xA;Can information about it be expanded upon? &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21542" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4872" RevisionGUID="9410f253-ee22-4c4f-a5bc-0ae6572624d7" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="&gt; There are thirteen different kinds of Kitsune, each with a corresponding element, listed as follows: Heaven (or Celestial or Prime), Void (or Dark), Wind, Spirit, Fire, Earth, River, Ocean, Mountain, Forest, Thunder, Time and Sound.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Information found [here][1], 5/7/2018.&#xA;&#xA;Are there unique names for the type of kitsune in relation to the corresponding element?&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.mythicalcreaturesguide.com/page/Kitsune" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21543" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4881" RevisionGUID="00467d93-32b9-46cd-969b-b32b31564279" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="I just opened my [Iliad et Odyssey][1] (Translated by Samuel Butler), and I saw this...&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Polypoetes then killed Astyalus, Ulysses Pidytes of Percote, and Teucer Aretaon.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;The Iliad, Book VI, page 98&#xA;&#xA;This  book uses all Greek names [Athene (older spelling of Athena), Zeus, Odysseus, Ares, Aphrodite...], so, I ask to learn about the use of the Latin Odysseus.&#xA;&#xA;Why say Ulysses? Is it to separate him from the Odysseus on the other side of the war (Acheans/Greeks vs Trojans)?&#xA;&#xA;What is Pidytes? Is the a last name or a title (pretty sure it is not a last name, but I still ask)?&#xA;&#xA;Percote was a city on the southern side of the Hellespont, northeast of Troy. As allies of Troy, Percote sent them help for the war.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/barnes-noble-leatherbound-classics-the-iliad-and-the-odyssey-homer/1106658791" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21544" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4904" RevisionGUID="6aaba7f2-0010-4eaa-b07c-fcf853789546" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="[Flood myths][1] shows up frequently.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The anthropologist Sir James Frazer compared ... &quot;dying god&quot; myths in his multi-volume work The Golden Bough.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Vedic India, ancient China, Mayans, Incas and the ancient Germans all had myths featuring a &quot;Cosmic Tree&quot; whose branches reach heaven and whose roots reach hell.&#xA;&#xA;https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_mythology&#xA;&#xA;&gt; untold numbers of people began to write books, papers, and dissertations on the parallels between Jesus and Osiris&#xA;&#xA;http://www.eoht.info/m/page/Comparative+religion+and+mythology&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_flood_myths" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21545" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4906" RevisionGUID="81c4f7b6-91a2-4737-9515-cf8825ea5e53" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="There are plenty of stories out there of Greek gods being fought and defeated!&#xA;&gt; In Greek mythology, gods were often fought by both other gods and mortals. The mortal Arachne soundly defeated Athena&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; the demigod Heracles killed a number of Poseidon’s sons&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Hades kidnapped the god Persephone to become his wife&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;the great mortal hero Diomedes injured Aphrodite and Aeneas in battle, etc. &#xA;&#xA;In Jewish theology, Yahweh is supposed to be perfect and undefeatable. Despite this, there are definitely ways you can beat the Jewish God. &#xA;&gt; When Satan made a bet with Yahweh that Job would turn away from Him, it was completely possible that Job could have failed the test after having his family and slaves murdered. Free will is supposed to be a very important thing to Yahweh, and as such, Job indubitably could have turned away from God.  &#xA;&gt; Why would Satan make a bet with God if he knew that God knew the answer? The bet would have never been made if Job’s fate was already sealed… Satan is described as being too clever to do something so stupid. Job could’ve cursed God, and Satan would have won the fight.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Moses also defeated Yahweh in an intellectual battle. Exodus 32 describes how God wanted to kill all of the Israelites after Aaron made them dance naked around the golden calf. Moses instead reasoned with God and told him to “turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.” God, seeing the wisdom of Moses, changed His mind, thus admitting that Moses’s idea is better than His own. Moses defeated God in a battle of ideas. “…And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.” Nice job, Moses!&#xA;&#xA;https://www.quora.com/Can-you-fight-God-and-win-Is-it-possible&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21546" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4700" RevisionGUID="47e1d137-c7bf-4d0a-97ff-c5d049fce9cb" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="**Домовой** lives in almost every home. Most often he may be found where several generations of the family lived. To reveal his presence is difficult, but if a home is not happy, he will certainly show his displeasure. He is able to protect against many misfortunes: fires, scandals, theft, ill-wishers or foes. However, if a family start show disrespect to their home, make a mess, **Домовой** becomes angry, and then you'll know exactly that he lives in that home.&#xA;&#xA;People believed that without a **Домовой** there will be misfortune in the family, so when moving in the last night or before leaving the old house invited **Домовой** to a new place saying: *Ангел мой, пойдём со мной* (my angel, come with me) 3 times.&#xA;&#xA;---&#xA;&#xA;# Signs of the presence of the [Домовой][1] in the apartment&#xA;&#xA;[![Домовой][2]][2]&#xA;&#xA;## 1. Loud noise&#xA;&#xA;Sometimes at the night **Домовой** may manifest himself, rearranging the dishes in the kitchen, slamming doors, loud stomping. He usually gets mad when the hostess stops carefully monitor the cleanliness. In this case, the **Домовой** gets harmful, hides things, thereby calling for cleaning.&#xA;&#xA;## 2. Pets&#xA;&#xA;The most widespread pets, cats and dogs, always see and hear more than people. If you noticed that the dog sometimes cautiously looks into the corner, starts wagging her tail and trying to play like herself, most likely, she sees **Домовой**. Also cats can suddenly freeze, and then are beginning purr, arching back, as if invisible hand caress them.&#xA;&#xA;## 3. Loss of sweets or small items&#xA;&#xA;**Домовой** may steal a few candies, wrappers from which will periodically catch your eye in the most unexpected places. Also he may shift keys, scissors and other objects out of harmfulness. Pour milk in a small cup, put porridge with butter in a plate and put it in the corner. Ask **Домовой** apologize for the carelessness and ask him to guard your house with the same force. Also ask to return the lost things in exchange, for example, for marmalade.&#xA;&#xA;## 4. Dreams&#xA;&#xA;In a dream **Домовой** may prompt you the solution of the problem, indicate who from the inner circle are hostile. In rare cases, **Домовой** may indicate the place where the treasure is hidden. So he shows respect, thanks for caring, but most often it is gratitude for the fact that when you moved you didn't forgot about him and offered to go to a new home.&#xA;&#xA;## 5. Safety&#xA;&#xA;We often feel anxiety, but when we return home, we notice that fears gone somewhere. Peace mood appears, warmth and comfort. And at night nightmares don't torture us we easily fall asleep and wake up cheerful and rested. It is also a sign of a presence **Домовой** in the house who cares about our safety and peace of mind.&#xA;&#xA;## 6. Warning&#xA;&#xA;Sometimes it also happens that at the night we suddenly wake up with a strong sense of anxiety, and in the dream feel like something swooped down and presses. So **Домовой** warns of impending danger. Also, he may make loud noise, slam the door or press the doorbell. In this case, you should take care of your safety and prevent leakage of gas, water or fire, double-checking all the important places in the house.&#xA;&#xA;## 7. Company&#xA;&#xA;Often before someone without notification looks to visit unto you you will feel it. This may be intuition, but most often the **Домовой** warns of all uninvited guests in advance. A quiet knock or jingled phone alerts about people with good intentions. Sense of anxiety, suddenly crashed glass, worried pets signal, that foes want to visit your house.&#xA;&#xA;## 8. Children&#xA;&#xA;**Домовой** refers to junior family members with special attention and respect, play with them and protect. Often you may notice that the child puts an extra tableware for a doll tea party, laughs loudly, says something into the void. Young mothers often notice that suddenly shouted in a dream child becomes silent, the blanket on him is corrected, and the cradle slowly swings.&#xA;&#xA;## 9. Feelings&#xA;&#xA;When moving to a new home, you should carefully listen to your feelings, especially if someone lived in the new house before you. Often owners leave the apartments and houses, without taking away spirit with themselves. In this case, **Домовой** is unlikely to be friendly to you. His trust must be earned. If the feeling of anxiety don't leaves you give to the little spirit some dainty and offer friendship. In as a gift you can give him a shred of a tissue, old clothes, hay, shoe. If this is a private house, then **Домовой** necessarily choose a secluded area, where he will settle with great comfort. In apartments, **Домовой** feels more difficult because of the small space, but here he also may choose a place under the bathtub, on the entresol or in an old suitcase. If over time you have established life, you feel peace, so then **Домовой** took you for the new owners and is ready to serve. If the feeling of anxiety increases, things disappear in the house, scandals become more frequent, it is worth thinking about how to drive away the evil spirit.&#xA;&#xA;## 10. Appearance&#xA;&#xA;In rare cases, **Домовой** reveals itself. If the little grey or smoky kitten implored to enter your door, let him in. **Домовой** is often embodied in these animals. It also happens that **Домовой** warns about something significant so much that dares to appear in front of us. This may be a small vague silhouette, a cat, a gray-haired old man. It is important at this point to concentrate and ask what news brought your home defender. Feel warmth - happy news wait you; cold, chills, shaking or a sense of danger - expect trouble.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B9&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ik6qi.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21547" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5460" RevisionGUID="b48560b1-90f8-43b9-a458-5c565cb22e24" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Judging from the context Ohrmazd knows his creatures can be corrupted and that in this way he tricks the evil spirit into accepting a proposed time for their final fight (making sure they are not fighting constantly). Ohrmazd, using his omniscience knew the end result would result in the evil spirit being disabled. &#xA;&#xA;&gt; And the evil spirit shouted thus: 'I will not depart, I will not provide assistance for thy creatures, I will not offer praise among thy creatures, and I am not of the same opinion with thee as to good things. I will destroy thy creatures for ever and everlasting; moreover, I will force all thy creatures into disaffection to thee and affection for myself.'  And the explanation thereof is this, that the evil spirit reflected in this manner, that Ohrmazd was helpless as regarded him, therefore He proffers peace; and he did not agree, but bore on even into conflict with Him.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;And Ohrmazd spoke thus: 'You are not omniscient and almighty, O evil spirit! so that it is not possible for thee to destroy me, and it is not possible for thee to force my creatures so that they will not return to my possession.'&#xA;Then the evil spirit, **unobservant and through ignorance**, was content&#xA;&gt; with that agreement; just like two men quarreling together, who&#xA;&gt; propose a time thus: Let us appoint such-and-such a day for a fight.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; Ohrmazd also knew this, through omniscience, that within these nine&#xA;&gt; thousand years, for three thousand years everything proceeds by the&#xA;&gt; will of Ohrmazd, three thousand years there is an intermingling of the&#xA;&gt; wills of Ohrmazd and Ahriman, and the last three thousand years the&#xA;&gt; evil spirit is disabled, and they keep the adversary away from the&#xA;&gt; creatures.&#xA;&#xA;It might even be because Ohrmazd is convinced that by then he will have made sure Ahriman is not feared anymore by his creations. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21548" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5437" RevisionGUID="bb3e59b8-fc31-4037-be3a-84140664f0f9" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="It's not clear from your picture, but the face is most probably a [Gorgoneion][1], a recurring element of Athena's iconography:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; In Ancient Greece, the Gorgoneion (Greek: Γοργόνειον) was a special apotropaic amulet showing the Gorgon head, used most famously by the Olympian deities Athena and Zeus: both are said to have worn the gorgoneion as a protective pendant. It was assumed, among other godlike attributes, as a royal aegis to imply divine birth or protection, by rulers of the Hellenistic age, as shown, for instance, on the Alexander Mosaic and the Gonzaga Cameo.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Wikipedia contributors. (2018, June 16). Gorgoneion. In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 21:22, February 5, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gorgoneion&amp;oldid=846161112&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;The ever-so-helpful theoi.com has tons of information on the mythology of the [Gorgons][2], if you wish to know more about them. We also happen to host some very [interesting questions about Medusa and her sisters][3] on this site.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgoneion&#xA;  [2]: https://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Gorgones.html&#xA;  [3]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/medusa?sort=votes&amp;pageSize=30" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21549" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5687" RevisionGUID="9f1f2a1c-d14c-4ed8-8b81-1189b2eeaa14" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Kersey Graves in *The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors* compiled a list of sixteen messianic figures that preceded Jesus and were crucified on a tree, rock or cross before ascending into heaven. &#xA;&#xA;The oldest one on the list is a Thulis of Egypt:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; X. CRUCIFIXION OF THULIS OF EGYPT, 1700 B.C.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Thulis of Egypt, whence comes &quot;Ultima Thule,&quot; died the death of the cross about thirty-five hundred years ago. Ultima Thule was the island which marked the ultimate bounds of the extensive empire of this legitimate descendant of the Gods.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; This Egyptian Savior appears also to have been known as Zulis, and with this name—Mr. Wilkison tells us—&quot;his history is curiously illustrated in the sculptures, made seventeen hundred years B.C., of a small, retired chamber lying nearly over the western adytum of the temple.&quot; We are told twenty-eight lotus plants near his grave indicate the number of years be lived on the earth. After suffering a violent death, he was buried, but rose again, ascended into heaven, and there became &quot;the judge of the dead,&quot; or of souls in a future state. Wilkison says he came down from heaven to benefit mankind, and that he was said to be full of grace and truth.&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors. by Kersey Graves&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;I've tried to find more information on this Thulis (or Zulis or Zhule), but was not successful. It seems that every bit of information about him online inevitably leads back to Graves. I'm not entirely sure who &quot;Mr. Wilkison&quot; is, but I suspect it is John Gardner Wilkinson, a renowned Egyptologist.&#xA;&#xA;In a different part of the book, Graves gives Osiris as an alternate name for Thulis. Osiris died a violent death, was resurrected and was considered as king of the underworld. It vaguely matches the general pattern Graves is looking for, but some of the details remain a mystery (e.g. the connection to Ultima Thule).&#xA;&#xA;Who is Thulis of Egypt? Is it Osiris? If so, do we know which tales of Osiris provide the details Graves mentions?&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21550" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5702" RevisionGUID="aa6a7ae0-5c5f-44f9-8d38-5c9c20f1cd31" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="### Hector's last fight&#xA;&#xA;A prime example is Hector trying to flee Achilles during their final duel in Book 22 of the *Iliad*. Hector was a celebrated warrior, the greatest of the Trojans and commander of their army. By the time of his ill-fated duel with the best of the Achaeans, he had survived an earlier duel with Achilles (mentioned briefly in Book 9), one with Protesilaus (whom he killed), and one with the second greatest of the Achaeans, Telamonian Ajax (a tie).&#xA;&#xA;Here's how Homer describes the moment the mighty Trojan prince realizes he stands no chance against the enraged Achilles:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; So he pondered as he abode, and nigh to him came Achilles, the peer of Enyalius, warrior of the waving helm, brandishing over his right shoulder the Pelian ash, his terrible spear; and all round about the bronze flashed like the gleam of blazing fire or of the sun as he riseth. But trembling gat hold of Hector when he was ware of him, neither dared he any more abide where he was, but left the gates behind him, and fled in fear; and the son of Peleus rushed after him, trusting in his fleetness of foot.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Homer. The Iliad. Translated by Murray, A T. Loeb Classical Library Volumes. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1924.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;The two run around the walls of Troy three times until Hector regains his courage and decides to fight.&#xA;&#xA;Interestingly, Paris, Hector's younger brother, also fled a duel (Book 3), with a little bit of help from Aphrodite. This time it was against Menelaus and their duel was an attempt to end the war. It should be noted, however, that Paris is described by Homer as lacking in military prowess - especially in comparison to his brother. He probably doesn't quite fit your definition of a powerful figure of martial might.&#xA;&#xA;---&#xA;&#xA;### Typhon &amp; the flight of the gods to Egypt&#xA;&#xA;In another example from Greek mythology, when the serpentine storm giant Typhon attacked Olympus, the gods - except Zeus, Athena and in some versions Dionysus - disguised themselves as animals and fled to Egypt in panic.&#xA;&#xA;Here's a version of the story, as told by Antoninus Liberalis:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Typhon was the son of Ge (Gaea, Earth), a deity monstrous because of his strength, and of outlandish appearance. There grew out of him numerous heads and hands and wings, while from his thighs came huge coils of snakes. He emitted all kinds of roars and nothing could resist his might.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; He felt an urge to usurp the rule of Zeus and not one of the gods could withstand him as he attacked. In panic they fled to Aigyptos (Egypt), all except Athena and Zeus, who alone were left. Typhon hunted after them, on their track. When they fled they had changed themselves in anticipation into animal forms.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Apollon became a hawk [i.e. the Egyptian god Horus], Hermes an ibis [the Egyptian god Thoth], Ares became a fish, the lepidotus [Egyptian Lepidotus or Onuris], Artemis a cat [Neith or Bastet], Dionysos took the shape of a goat [Osiris or Arsaphes], Herakles a fawn, Hephaistos (Hephaestus) an ox [Ptah], and Leto a shrew mouse [Wadjet]. The rest of the gods each took on what transformations they could. When Zeus struck Typhon with a thunderbolt, Typhon, aflame hid himself and quenched the blaze in the sea.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Zeus did not desist but piled the highest mountain, Aitna (Etna), on Typon and set Hephaistos on the peak as a guard. Having set up his anvils, he works his red hot blooms on Typhon's neck.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Antoninus Liberalis, Metamorphoses 28 (trans. Celoria)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;If you wish to find out more, Theoi Project, an invaluable online reference, has extensive information on [Typhon][1]. Wikipedia's [Typhon article][2] is also quite comprehensive.  &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.theoi.com/Gigante/Typhoeus.html&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhon" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21551" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5703" RevisionGUID="87037eff-163c-4cc2-9976-36f8fee6a07c" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Locals in the spa town of Edipsos in the north of Evia are always quick to point out that the legendary Herakles would visit their town to rejuvenate himself in its spa waters.&#xA;&#xA;Here are a few sites mentioning the tale, without, unfortunately identifying its source: &#xA;&#xA;&gt;  The goddess Athena asked from the god of fire, Hephestus, to bring to earth warm, relaxing, healing waters so that her protegee, the hero Hercules, could come and rest.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; https://www.gtp.gr/LocPage.asp?id=4932&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; ---&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; According to mythology, the precious water flowed for the very first time when Hephaestus beat the land with his hammer. It was a favour to goddess Athena, who believed that the thermal springs would keep Hercules healthy and powerful! &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; https://www.eviafoxhouse.com/attraction/the-healing-thermal-springs-of-edipsos/&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; ---&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The unique healing qualities of the waters were a source of ... inspiration for mythology. An ancient Greek legend says that the goddess Athena asked her brother Hephaestus to create the baths of Edipsos to rest here after each feat her beloved hero Hercules.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; https://www.almyra-holiday-village.gr/en/location&#xA;&#xA;Do we know what is the source of this legend?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21552" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5704" RevisionGUID="98940123-ac51-4c60-9e20-e7e98774a216" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Another one from Kersey Graves' *The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors*: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; XIV. CRITE OF CHALDEA CRUCIFIED, 1200 B.C.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The Chaldeans, as Mr. Higgins informs us, have noted in their sacred books the account of the crucifixion of a God with the above name. He was also known as &quot;the Redeemer,&quot; and was styled &quot;the Ever Blessed Son of God,&quot; &quot;the Savior of the Race,&quot; &quot;the Atoning Offering for an Angry God.&quot; And when he was offered up, both heaven and earth were shaken to their foundations.&#xA;&#xA;As with [Thulis of Egypt][1], most search results for &quot;Crite of Chaldea&quot; online recycle Graves. I assume &quot;Mr. Higgins&quot; is the religious historian Godfrey Higgins, however, searching for Crite in the [archive.org version of his book][2] *Anacalypsis* did not yield any results. &#xA;&#xA;Who is Crite of Chaldea?&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/5687/57&#xA;  [2]: https://archive.org/details/anacalypsisattem01higg/page/n6" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21553" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5718" RevisionGUID="6108bc36-9f91-47f1-a0f1-1a6d654164b0" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The story you describe shares several elements with the story of the shield-maiden [Brunhild][1] and King Gunther (and the legendary Siegfried) in the *[The Song of the Nibelungs][4]*, a German epic poem. &#xA;&#xA;Here's a quick summary of the relevant part of the story from Wikipedia: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; When Siegfried and Gunther arrive at Isenstein, Brunhild initially assumes that Siegfried is the suitor, but immediately loses interest in him once he claims that he is Gunther's vassal. With Siegfried's help, Gunther is able to accomplish all the feats of strength; although Brunhild initially looks like she might renege on the agreement, Siegfried quickly gathers his men from his kingdom in Nibelungenland and brings them to Isenstein. Gunther and Brunhild then agree to marry. The heroes return to Worms with Brunhild, and Siegfried marries Kriemhild at the same time that Brunhild marries Siegfried. Brunhild cries seeing this however, believing that the royal princess Kriemhild has been married to a vassal. On her wedding night, when Gunther attempts to sleep with Brunhild, Brunhild quickly overpowers Gunther, tying him up by his hands and feet with her belt and leaving him hanging on a hook until morning. Gunther is forced to rely on Siegfried again, who takes Gunther's shape using his Tarnkappe and is only able to subdue Brunhild due to the Tarnkappe granting him the strength of twelve men. Gunther is secretly present during all of this, and is able to confirm that Siegfried did not sleep with Brunhild. Once Siegfried has subdued Brunhild, Gunther takes Siegfried's place and takes Brunhild's virginity, which results in the loss of her superhuman strength. As a trophy, Siegfried takes Brunhild's ring and belt, which he later gives to Kriemhild.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Wikipedia contributors. (2019, May 29). Brunhild. In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 14:15, June 5, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brunhild&amp;oldid=899285895&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;The [Tarnkappe][5] is a cloak of invisibility in German folklore.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brunhild&#xA;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nibelungenlied&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloak_of_invisibility#Tarnkappe" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21554" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5734" RevisionGUID="7087a341-3c59-42b9-b169-8eaf7757f2ef" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="**Why is Satan commonly believed to rule in hell?**&#xA;&#xA;Some believe Satan is a Seraphim and chief yof the sinning angels, is probably the highest of all the angels. There are some who think that Lucifer was highest only among the rebel angels in hell.&#xA;&#xA;This answer will be based on the Catholic traditions in regards to Satan and the nine choirs of angels.&#xA;&#xA;Although it is now generally accepted that there are nine choirs of angels and each choir is of angel is different and ranked accordingly.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; During the Middle Ages, many schemes were proposed, some drawing on and expanding on Pseudo-Dionysius, others suggesting completely different classifications. According to medieval Christian theologians, the angels are organized into several orders, or &quot;Angelic Choirs.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Pseudo-Dionysius (On the Celestial Hierarchy) and Thomas Aquinas (Summa Theologica) drew on passages from the New Testament, specifically Ephesians 1:21 and Colossians 1:16, to develop a schema of three Hierarchies, Spheres or Triads of angels, with each Hierarchy containing three Orders or Choirs. Although both authors drew on the New Testament, the Biblical canon is relatively silent on the subject, and these hierarchies are considered less definitive than biblical material.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; **Choirs in medieval theology**&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; St. Thomas Aquinas in Summa Theologica (1225–1274):&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; 1.Seraphim, Cherubim, and Thrones;&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; 2.Dominations, Virtues, and Powers;&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; 3.Principalities, Archangels, and Angels. - [Christian angelology (Wikipedia)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_angelology)&#xA;&#xA;St. Thomas Aquinas' list is by far the most widely accepted list of angelic choirs and places the Seraphic order of angel as being at the highest level of angels followed by the Cherubim, and so on. According to St Thomas:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; 1.The angels that rebelled and became demons did not lose their nature or their connatural gifts. They cast away, by their sin, the grace in which they were created. They did not cast away the beatific vision, for they never had it. Now, if we think of angelic orders as orders of angels in glory, then, of course, there are no orders of bad angels. But if we consider angelic orders as order of angelic nature simply, there are orders among the demons.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; 2.Certainly, there is a precedence among bad angels; there is a subjection of some to others.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; 3.Demons of superior nature do not enlighten inferior demons; enlightenment here could only mean the manifestation of truth with reference to God, and the fallen angels have perversely and permanently turned away from God. But demons can speak to one another, that is, they can make known their thoughts to one another, that is, they can make known their thoughts to one another, for this ability belongs to the angelic nature which the demons retain.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; 4.The nearer creatures are to God the greater is their rule over other creatures. Therefore, the good angels rule and control the demons. - [ORDERS AMONG THE FALLEN ANGELS](http://www.jesus-passion.com/angels.htm)&#xA;&#xA;Thus stated it only makes sense that Satan was a Seraphim, for surely some of the Seraphim fell in great revolt against God. Although one can not say with certainty it is generally believed Satan was a Seraphim.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; **SIN OF THE FALLEN ANGELS**&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; 3.Lucifer who became Satan, leader of the fallen angels, wished to be as God. This prideful desire was not a wish to be equal to God, for Satan knew by his natural knowledge that equality of creature with creator is utterly impossible. Besides, no creature actually desires to destroy itself, even to become something greater. On this point man sometimes deceives himself by a trick of imagination; he imagines himself to be another and greater being, and yet it is himself that is somehow this other being. But an angel has no sense-faculty of imagination to abuse in this fashion. The angelic intellect, with its clear knowledge, makes such self-deception impossible. Lucifer knew that to be equal with God, he would have to be God, and he knew perfectly that this could not be. What he wanted was to be as God; he wished to be like God in a way not suited to his nature, such as to create things by his own power, or to achieve final beatitude without God's help, or to have command over others in a way proper to God alone.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; 4.**Lucifer, chief of the sinning angels, was probably the highest of all the angels. But there are some who think that Lucifer was highest only among the rebel angels.** - [ANGELS: FROM THE TEACHINGS OF SAINT THOMAS AQUINAS](http://www.jesus-passion.com/angels.htm)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21555" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5740" RevisionGUID="59377905-fcce-408e-9489-da2f4f6d0f7e" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Looks like ***Kumulipo***, an 18th-century chant in the Hawaiian language telling a creation story.&#xA;&#xA;According to [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumulipo), the summary of the story is,&#xA;&#xA;&gt; In the *Kumulipo* the world was created over a cosmic night. This is not just one night, but many nights over time. The ancient Hawaiian *kahunas* and priests of the Hawaiian religion would recite the *Kumulipo* during the *makahiki* season, honoring the god Lono.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; [...]&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The *Kumulipo* is a total of 2,102 lines long, in honor of Kalaninuiamamao, who created peace for all when he was born. There was a lot of fighting between his ʻI and Keawe family, who were cousins so his birth stopped the two from feuding. The *Kumulipo* is a cosmogonic genealogy, which means that it relates to the stars and the moon. Out of the 2102 lines, it has 16 &quot;wā&quot; which means era or age. In each *wā*, something is born whether it is a human, plant, or creature.&#xA;&#xA;The octopus, known as Kanaloa, is mentioned in the 8th wā.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; In the eighth wā, the four divinities are born: Laʻilaʻi (Female), Kiʻi (Male), Kāne (God), Kanaloa (Octopus), respectively.&#xA;&#xA;Regarding the octopus being the only survivor from a previous world, it was interpreted by anthropologists Adolf Bastian and Roland Burrage Dixon.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; In the 19th and early 20th centuries, anthropologists Adolf Bastian and Roland Burrage Dixon interpreted a recurring verse of the Kumulipo as describing the octopus as the sole survivor of a previous age of existence.&#xA;&#xA;The translated version can be read on:&#xA;&#xA;- [The Kumulipo](http://www.sacred-texts.com/pac/ku/index.htm) with commentary and translations by Martha Warren Beckwith.&#xA;- [The Kumulipo: a Hawaiian creation chant](http://www.ulukau.org/elib/cgi-bin/library?c=beckwit2&amp;l=en), another online copy of the Beckwith book, Paperback edition 1981. University of Hawaii Press.&#xA;&#xA;---&#xA;&#xA;Found by googling &quot;octopus world creation&quot; which returns [Wikipedia article on Octopus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus) that refers [Kumulipo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumulipo)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21556" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5755" RevisionGUID="8297ebfa-f789-4723-bf53-5da1dc8809d2" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="## All three.&#xA;&#xA;None of the oldest sources seem to confirm or deny, since Medousa's sisters don't really do much in the most famous myths. But some later authors made it explicit.&#xA;&#xA;From Nonnus's *Dionysiaca*, from the fourth or fifth century CE.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; *ἢ Περσέος εἶχες ἀγῶνα;*  &#xA;&gt; *ἢ Σθεννοῦς ἴδες ὄμμα λιθώπιδος ἠὲ καὶ αὐτῆς*  &#xA;&gt; *δύσμαχον Εὐρυάλης μυκώμενον ἀνθερεῶνα;*&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Have you had Perseus's quests, then? Have you seen Sthenno's petrifying eye? Have you heard the screaming mouth of Euryalë herself?&#xA;&#xA;(Book 30, lines 264-266, translation mine)&#xA;&#xA;A bit earlier, Pseudo-Apollodorus (author of the *Bibliotheca*) says in the first or second century CE that all three could petrify:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; *ἦσαν δὲ αὗται Σθενὼ Εὐρυάλη Μέδουσα. […] τοὺς δὲ ἰδόντας λίθους ἐποίουν.*&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; [The Gorgons] were Stheno, Euryalë, [and] Medousa. […] They turned anyone who saw them to stone.&#xA;&#xA;(Translation mine; I can't seem to find an edition with line numbers to cite.)&#xA;&#xA;I can't find any other sources that mention Sthen(n)o and Euryalë being able to petrify, or not. As Lauren mentioned, Homer and many other authors mentions only a single Gorgon (sometimes &quot;Gorgo&quot;), whose head was on Athena's shield; the sisters don't show up much outside the Perseus myth.&#xA;&#xA;Apart from the petrification, Hesiod similarly mentions that all three were monsters; Pseudo-Apollonius says all three were identical in appearance; Ovid says that all three were originally beautiful, but Medousa had her hair turned into snakes. Medousa's defining characteristic seems to have been that she was *mortal*, while her sisters weren't, which is why Perseus was able to kill her:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; *Σθεννώ τ’ Εὐρυάλη τε Μέδουσά τε λυγρὰ παθοῦσα·*  &#xA;&gt; *ἡ μὲν ἔην θνητή, αἱ δ’ ἀθάνατοι καὶ ἀγήρῳ,*  &#xA;&gt; *αἱ δύο· τῇ δὲ μιῇ παρελέξατο Κυανοχαίτης*  &#xA;&gt; *ἐν μαλακῷ λειμῶνι καὶ ἄνθεσιν εἰαρινοῖσι.*&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; [There lived] Sthenno, and Euryalë, and Medousa, who suffered such misery. Only she [Medousa] was mortal, while the others are undying and unaging, the two of them; she [Medousa] is the only one blue-haired [Poseidon] wandered with amid the soft meadows and springtime flowers.&#xA;&#xA;(Hesiod _Theogony_ 276-9, translation mine.)&#xA;&#xA;This is the only mention I can find of multiple Gorgons in the *Theogony*, with no mention of petrification. Many authors specify that Medousa could petrify people, but I can't find any specific mention that her sisters *couldn't*." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21557" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5758" RevisionGUID="18a09c2d-fbe4-4c31-9032-2231fade283c" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Nothing special, according to Plato. This comes from the end of book 10 of the _Republic_ (X.621):&#xA;&#xA;&gt; *σκηνᾶσθαι οὖν σφᾶς ἤδη ἑσπέρας γιγνομένης παρὰ τὸν Ἀμέλητα ποταμόν, οὗ τὸ ὕδωρ ἀγγεῖον οὐδὲν στέγειν.*  &#xA;&gt; Then, as dusk was falling, they set up camp near the river Amelēta (&quot;Not-Caring&quot;), the waters of which couldn't be kept in any container.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; *μέτρον μὲν οὖν τι τοῦ ὕδατος πᾶσιν ἀναγκαῖον εἶναι πιεῖν, τοὺς δὲ φρονήσει μὴ σῳζομένους πλέον πίνειν τοῦ μέτρου· τὸν δὲ ἀεὶ πιόντα πάντων ἐπιλανθάνεσθαι.*  &#xA;&gt; Then every one of them needed to drink a specific amount of the water, though the ones who weren't saved by their good judgement drank more than that amount: and each one of them, at the moment of drinking, forgot everything (or &quot;had everything wiped away&quot;).&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; *ἐπειδὴ δὲ κοιμηθῆναι καὶ μέσας νύκτας γενέσθαι, βροντήν τε καὶ σεισμὸν γενέσθαι, καὶ ἐντεῦθεν ἐξαπίνης ἄλλον ἄλλῃ φέρεσθαι ἄνω εἰς τὴν γένεσιν, ᾄττοντας ὥσπερ ἀστέρας.*  &#xA;&gt; After they'd gone to bed, and midnight had come, there was thunder and an earthquake, and all of a sudden they were borne up away from that place to their birth, each one in a different way, like meteors.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; *αὐτὸς δὲ τοῦ μὲν ὕδατος κωλυθῆναι πιεῖν· ὅπῃ μέντοι καὶ ὅπως εἰς τὸ σῶμα ἀφίκοιτο, οὐκ εἰδέναι, ἀλλ’ ἐξαίφνης ἀναβλέψας ἰδεῖν ἤδη ἕωθεν αὑτὸν κείμενον ἐπὶ τῇ πυρᾷ.*  &#xA;&gt; But he (Ēros) was prevented from drinking the water: indeed, how and in what way he came back to his body, he had no idea, but all of a sudden he looked up to see that it was dawn, and he was lying on his funeral pyre.&#xA;&#xA;(Translation mine.)&#xA;&#xA;Plato never mentions anything in particular happening to the ones who drank too much; after all, drinking any of the water seems to erase your entire memory.&#xA;&#xA;It's worth noting that the Orphics (who to some extent influenced Socrates and Plato) considered drinking from Lethë at all to be a failure: their initiates were taught to avoid Lethë entirely and drink from the pool of Mnemosynë (&quot;memory&quot;) instead. The goal was, eventually, to break free of the cycle of reincarnation." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21558" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5850" RevisionGUID="04697f1e-181b-4508-90c8-7828f7d6fd39" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="That's the legend of the Church Grim. They're from English and Scandinavian lore, and they protect cemeteries and churchyards.&#xA;&#xA;https://enacademic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/1233957&#xA;&#xA;From the website: &#xA;&#xA;&gt;The Church Grim, Kirk Grim, Kyrkogrim (Swedish) or Kirkonväki (Finnish) is a figure from English and Scandinavian folklore, said to be an attendant spirit, overseeing the welfare of its particular church. English Church Grims are said to enjoy loudly ringing the bells. They may appear as black dogs or as small, misshapen, dark-skinned people.[1]&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;The Swedish Kyrkogrim are said to be the spirits of animals sacrificed by early Christians at the building of a new church.[2] In parts of Europe, including Britain and Scandinavia, a completely black dog would be buried alive on the north side of the grounds of a newly built church, creating a guardian spirit, the church grim, in order to protect the church from the devil.[1] " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21559" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5898" RevisionGUID="111f0975-2b29-42b8-b5ed-a546a3e1f5dc" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The Nirgul tablet (also known as Cerberus relief) was a Parthian relief carving of the Mesopotamian god [Nergal][2], a three-headed dog and a seated female figure:&#xA;&#xA;[![The Nirgul tablet][3]][4]&#xA;&#xA;According to Wikipedia, which cites Lucinda Dirven's paper *A Goddess with dogs from Hatra*, the seated female figure may be the pre-Islamic Arabian goddess [Al-Lat][5]: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; The tablet was recovered from a room in the First Temple at the site where it had been encased in a wall. Alongside the figure of Nirgul, a seated female figure is thought to depict the goddess Al-Lat.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Wikipedia contributors. (2019, April 28). Nirgul tablet. In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 23:22, September 16, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nirgul_tablet&amp;oldid=894533315 &lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Encyclopaedia Iranica, on the other hand, tells us the goddess is probably the Syrian [Atargatis][6]: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; The so called “Cerberus relief” shows a god, his consort, and a three headed dog. The god stands frontally, clad in Parthian dress somewhat like that worn by the bronze figure from Šāmī; an eagle perches on his horned diadem (which surely recalls the earlier Mesopotamian horned crown), and snakes spring from his waist and shoulders. In his upraised right hand he holds an axe; in his left, a sword and the leash of the dog. While the triple headed dog is clearly based on the Greek Cerberus, here he identifies the god as the underworld god Nergal. His consort, seated frontally on a throne flanked by griffins, is crowned by an eagle. In her right hand she holds a feather; in her left, the standard, an important Hatran religious symbol. Her footstool is decorated with fish. The standard, the eagle, and the fish probably identify her as Atargatis, the goddess of the Syrian city of Hierapolis. Additional animal attributes are associated with these and other Semitic deities (H. Ingholt, “Parthian Sculptures from Hatra,” Memoirs of the Connecticut Academy of Arts and Sciences 12, New Haven, 1954, pp. 17 33; Ghirshman, Persian Art, p. 87, fig. 98).&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/art-in-iran-iv-parthian&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;There's also [Ereshkigal][7], Nergal's consort.&#xA; &#xA;Which one is the more likely candidate, and why? Are there other candidates? &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirgul_tablet&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nergal&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MOxPQ.jpg&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ancient_Parthian_relief_carving_of_the_god_Nergal_from_Hatra.jpg&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Lat&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atargatis&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ereshkigal" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21560" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5911" RevisionGUID="d0e1d914-d4a9-43f1-893f-45f3c0777baf" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="This is *[Homeric Hymn][1] 14, To the Mother of the Gods*:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; I prithee, clear-voiced Muse, daughter of mighty Zeus, sing of the mother of all gods and men. She is well-pleased with the sound of rattles and of timbrels, with the voice of flutes and the outcry of wolves and bright-eyed lions, with echoing hills and wooded coombes.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; And so hail to you in my song and to all goddesses as well!&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source:  The Homeric Hymns and Homerica with an English Translation by Hugh G. Evelyn-White. Homeric Hymns. Cambridge, MA.,Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1914.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Who is &quot;the mother of all gods and men&quot;? &#xA;&#xA;My first thought was Rhea, sister-wife of Kronos and mother to the first generation of Olympians.&#xA;&#xA;However Gaia, Rhea's mother and &quot;mother of all, eldest of all beings&quot; according to Homeric Hymn 30, may also be a candidate.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeric_Hymns" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21561" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5914" RevisionGUID="5ba86d8d-79e5-42f0-b2d8-ee593f6761d8" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In *[Homeric Hymn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeric_Hymns) 8, to Ares*, we learn that the god of war is allied to [Themis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Themis), the personification of justice and fairness: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Ares, exceeding in strength, chariot-rider, golden-helmed, doughty in heart, shield-bearer, Saviour of cities, harnessed in bronze, strong of arm, unwearying, mighty with the spear, O defence of Olympus, father of warlike Victory, ally of Themis, stern governor of the rebellious, leader of righteous men, sceptred King of manliness, who whirl your fiery sphere among the planets in their sevenfold courses through the aether wherein your blazing steeds ever bear you above the third firmament of heaven; hear me, helper of men, giver of dauntless youth! Shed down a kindly ray from above upon my life, and strength of war, that I may be able to drive away bitter cowardice from my head and crush down the deceitful impulses of my soul. Restrain also the keen fury of my heart which provokes me to tread the ways of blood-curdling strife. Rather, O blessed one, give you me boldness to abide within the harmless laws of peace, avoiding strife and hatred and the violent fiends of death.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Homeric Hymns and Homerica with an English Translation by Hugh G. Evelyn-White. Homeric Hymns. Cambridge, MA.,Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1914.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;I find the relationship curious, justice and fairness are not the first things that spring to mind when thinking about war.&#xA;&#xA;What is Ares' relationship to Themis?&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21562" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5915" RevisionGUID="63bc658e-5ca9-4f43-aa50-8b96474d5476" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="&quot;Decifra-me ou te devoro&quot;/&quot;Decipher me or I'll devour you&quot;&#xA;&#xA;Just recently I remembered hearing this phrase when I was kid.. I'm brasilian and I was thinking how bad*ss it is and all and so I decided to research a bit more into it and, to my surprise, Google results for the translated phrase all seemed to be of brasilians repeating it translated, no relevant results at all that seemed to point to source, etc.&#xA;&#xA;**Google results**:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; &quot;decifra-me ou te devoro&quot; - &quot;About 47,300 results&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &quot;decifra-me ou devoro-te&quot; - &quot;About 29,500 results&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &quot;decipher me or i will devour you&quot; - &quot;About 510 results&quot;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &quot;decipher me or I devour you&quot; - &quot;About 115 results&quot;&#xA;&#xA;So it seems really prevalent, this appears on scientific papers, books, it's cited by journalists, etc. Is this a borrowed phrase? Did it just slip into Brazil consciousness? Is there a different translation that'd actually point to a source? I'm spooked." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21563" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5927" RevisionGUID="41ebd388-bffb-4103-928b-a257aeb97f6e" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The original text:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Vitr þóttisk valkyrja; &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; verar né óru þekkir &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; feimu inni framsóttu, &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; es fugls rǫdd kunni. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Kvaddi in kverkhvíta &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; ok in glæ*hvarma &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Hymis hausreyti, &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; es sat á horni of bjarga.&#xA;&#xA;The valkyrie thought herself wise; men were not pleasing to the aggressive maid, who understood the voice of the bird. The white-throated and the bright-eyelashed one greeted the skull-picker of Hymir &lt;giant&gt; [RAVEN], which sat on the edge of a cliff.&#xA;&#xA;From the [footnotes](https://skaldic.abdn.ac.uk/m.php?p=verse&amp;i=4330&amp;x=0&amp;v=t):&#xA;&#xA;&gt; — [7] hausreyti Hymis ‘the skull-picker of Hymir &lt;giant&gt; [RAVEN]’:&#xA;&gt; Hymir is an adversary of Þórr and subject of the late eddic poem&#xA;&gt; Hymiskviða (and SnE 2005, 44-5), but on what occasion a raven picked&#xA;&gt; flesh from the skull of Hymir is unknown. There may be confusion with&#xA;&gt; the primeval giant Ymir, from whose skull the sky was made (Vafþr 21,&#xA;&gt; 28, Vsp 3, Arn Magndr 19/4II; SnE 2005, 10, 11, 12, 15, and 170 on&#xA;&gt; confusion between Hymir and Ymir in mss). Kock (NN §1024) accordingly&#xA;&gt; emends to Ymis here, also reversing the order of the words for the&#xA;&gt; sake of the alliteration&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21564" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5944" RevisionGUID="e1bcb349-d7ba-4b6b-b6e1-e34bad978894" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Short version: the assignment was more astrological than religious, insofar as such things can be separated out.&#xA;&#xA;The oldest explanation I can find of the now-standard day names is from Cassius Dio, second century CE, though the names are referenced earlier (Tibullus, first century BCE). Dio claims the system was developed by the Egyptians, but most likely the Egyptians adopted it from the Babylonians.&#xA;&#xA;According to Dio, the cycle &quot;Saturday, Sunday, Monday&quot; etc comes from astrology. In other words, the days aren't associated with the gods directly, but with the *planets*, which are then astrologically connected to the gods.&#xA;&#xA;In the classical geocentric model, there were seven planets: Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sol, Venus, Mercury, Luna. Saturn was the farthest away, while Luna was the closest. As Dio explains it, each hour was governed by one of these planets. (This is one reason historians think the model started with the Babylonians—they were the ones who divided the day into twenty-four hours.)&#xA;&#xA;&gt; *τὰς ὥρας τῆς ἡμέρας καὶ τῆς νυκτὸς ἀπὸ τῆς πρώτης ἀρξάμενος ἀριθμεῖν, καὶ ἐκείνην μὲν τῷ Κρόνῳ διδούς, τὴν δὲ ἔπειτα τῷ Διί, καὶ τρίτην Ἄρει, τετάρτην ἡλίῳ, πέμπτην Ἀφροδίτῃ, ἕκτην Ἑρμῇ, καὶ ἑβδόμην σελήνῃ,*  &#xA;&gt; If you start enumerating the hours of the day and night, starting from the first one, and assign the first one to Cronus, the second to Zeus, the third to Ares, the fourth to Helios, the fifth to Aphroditë, the sixth to Hermes, and the seventh to Selenë,&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; *κατὰ τὴν τάξιν τῶν κύκλων καθ᾿ ἣν οἱ Αἰγύπτιοι αὐτὴν νομίζουσι, καὶ τοῦτο καὶ αὖθις ποιήσας, πάσας τε οὕτω τὰς τέσσαρας καὶ εἴκοσιν ὥρας περιελθών, εὑρήσεις τὴν πρώτην τῆς ἐπιούσης ἡμέρας ὥραν ἐς τὸν ἥλιον ἀφικνουμένην.*  &#xA;&gt; according to the order of the cycles that were developed by the Egyptians, and if you do all this again, going through the full twenty-four hours, you'll discover that the first hour of the second day is assigned to Helios.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; *καὶ τοῦτο καὶ ἐπ᾿ ἐκείνων τῶν τεσσάρων καὶ εἴκοσιν ὡρῶν κατὰ τὸν αὐτὸν τοῖς πρόσθε λόγον πράξας, τῇ σελήνῃ τὴν πρώτην τῆς τρίτης ἡμέρας ὥραν ἀναθήσεις, κἂν οὕτω καὶ διὰ τῶν λοιπῶν πορεύῃ, τὸν προσήκοντα ἑαυτῇ θεὸν ἑκάστη ἡμέρα λήψεται.*  &#xA;&gt; And if you do all that again in just the same way for the next twenty-four hours, then the first hour of the third day will be given to Selenë, and if you keep going through the remaining days, each and every day will be assigned its respective god.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; *ταῦτα μὲν οὕτω παραδέδοται.*  &#xA;&gt; So, that is the traditional way of it.&#xA;&#xA;(Dio XXXVII.19, translation mine)&#xA;&#xA;That is, each hour is assigned to one of the planets, in order; since 24 ≅ 3 mod 7, each day starts three places further around the cycle. So if you assign each _day_ to a planet, based on its first hour, you get Saturn, Sol, Luna, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus.&#xA;&#xA;When different cultures adopted this system, they fit their own gods into it as best they could, but used the same assignment to planets. According to the astrologers, for instance, the planet Jupiter was associated with strength and storms (rather than e.g. kingship), so the Germanic peoples connected it with their god Thor. &quot;Tuesday&quot; was the day of Tyr (Germanic), Mars (Roman), Ares (Greek), or Nergal (Babylonian), &quot;Friday&quot; was the day of Freyja (Germanic), Venus (Roman), Aphroditë (Greek), or Ištar (Babylonian), and so on.&#xA;&#xA;Edited to add: it's worth noting that, since this system was Babylonian in the first place, the Greco-Roman names we know for the planets are somewhat shoehorned in as well! For example, why is there a planet for Saturn/Cronus but not for Neptune/Poseidon? Because Saturn/Cronus was the closest match for the Sumerian agricultural deity Ninurta. Mesopotamian astrology has turned out to have some very long-lasting impacts on the world!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21565" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5957" RevisionGUID="31f9c3c8-3477-40ad-9bc1-946196315af0" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The Hittite ritual CTH 432 (&quot;The Ritual for Depression&quot;) mentions laying out certain patterns in flour, starting at §3.24:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; *namma-kan* É &lt;sup&gt;d&lt;/sup&gt;*MADANI* *Ù* É &lt;sup&gt;d&lt;/sup&gt;*ṢAR*[…  &#xA;&gt; *gulašzi nu-kan* KÁ &lt;sup&gt;d&lt;/sup&gt;*MADANI IŠ*[…&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Next, he shall mark out the Temple of Madanu and the Temple of Ṣar[panitu…]  &#xA;&gt; and then the Gate of Madanu wi[th…]&#xA;&#xA;The context implies that flour is supposed to be used for this (a few lines earlier *IŠTU* ZÌDA &quot;by using flour&quot;).&#xA;&#xA;But what does it mean to &quot;mark out the Temple of Madanu with flour&quot;? Similarly for &quot;the Gate of Madanu&quot;? Is this known from other Hittite or Akkadian rituals? (Since this particular ritual is a mix of Hittite and Akkadian magic.)&#xA;&#xA;(The word for &quot;temple&quot; here, &quot;É&quot;, literally means &quot;house&quot;, so this could also be read as &quot;the House of Madanu&quot;.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21566" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6021" RevisionGUID="13b00b61-cb04-416f-814f-e820f0c978e4" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The [scholiast to Apollonius of Rhodes](https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_oBI-AAAAcAAJ/page/n573) gives the story with Orion, but nothing about Artemis. The [scholiast to Pindar Nemean 2.17-18](https://scaife.perseus.org/reader/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg5034.tlg001c.perseus-grc1:2.17) also gives the story with Orion (along with a lot of non-mythological content). I don't see in either one of them a reference to a connection with Artemis.&#xA;&#xA;However, there are sources for this in the scholia, which you have already found and mentioned in the comments. These sources do explicitly say that Taygete and the other Pleiades were friends or hunted with Artemis.&#xA;&#xA;The relevant extracts are (with my non-expert translation):&#xA;&#xA;[Scholiast to Pindar Olympian 3.53](https://scaife.perseus.org/reader/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg5034.tlg001a.perseus-grc1:3.53/)&#xA;&#xA;&gt;Ταϋγέτα: ἡ Τηϋγέτη τῆς Ἀρτέμιδός ἐστι φίλη. ταύτης ἠράσθη Ζεὺς καὶ αὐτὴν Ἄρτεμις διωκομένην εἰς ἔλαφον μεταβάλλει·&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;Taygete is a companion of Artemis. Zeus fell in love with her, and Artemis transformed her into a deer as she was pursued by him.&#xA;&#xA;[Scholiast to Iliad 18.486](https://scaife.perseus.org/reader/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg5026.tlg001.1st1K-grc1:2.18.198/)&#xA;&#xA;&gt;αὗται δέ εἰσιν Ἄτλαντος καὶ Πληϊόνης θυγατέρες, ὧν τὰ ὀνόματα Μαῖα, Ταϋγέτη, Κελαινὼ, Μερόπη, Ἠλέκτρα, Στερόπη, Ἀλκυόνη. Ἄτλας δὲ εἷς τῶν Γιγάντων μιγεὶς Πληϊόνῃ τῇ·Ὠκεανοῦ ἔσχε θυγατέρας ζ, αἳ τὴν παρθενείαν ἀγαπήσασαι συνεκυνήγουν τῇ Ἀρτέμιδι.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;They [the Pleiades] are the daughters of Atlas and Pleione, whose names are Maia, Taygete, Kelaino, Merope, Elektra, Sterope, Alkyone. And Atlas, one of the Giants, had seven daughters through Pleione the daughter of Okeanos, who, being lovers of virginity, hunted together with Artemis.&#xA;&#xA;A possibly important detail is that when the latter scholiast then proceeds with the story of Orion, it's quoted on the authority of the lost Epic Cycle, so this detail about the Pleiades as Artemis' companions may have also come from there." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21567" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6091" RevisionGUID="91f27249-1642-469a-b4ea-1c4b07e12a53" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="# Possible&#xA;&#xA;You don't mention any specific characteristics, specific dates or specific references so it's impossible to determine any real connexion between folkloristic iconography and some real instance(s) of antisemitism.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;That said, one can speculate. From the 21st century perspective, we could say: &quot;Well, Dwarves love gold and the Jews run the banking system, so naturally, Dwarves are a caricature of Jews.&quot; The premise falls apart once we realise that mythological Dwarves, while they do seem to be into gold and gems, come to us from prechristian times out of the far north. Unlikely, it seems to me, that pagan Norsemen would be so perturbed by Jews that they would invent a whole race for the simple purpose of denigration.&#xA;&#xA;Does that mean later antisemites couldn't take those characteristics of Dwarves and turn them to evil? Of course it's possible! Tolkien fell afoul of this accusation. I think at best the answer to your query is both yes and no." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21568" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6104" RevisionGUID="c34ef63f-349d-4bba-bf11-54440b561590" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="These rivers are mentioned in verse 29 of the Grimnismol: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Kormt and Ormt and the Kerlaugs twain&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Shall Thor each day wade through,&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; When dooms to give he forth shall go&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; To the ash-tree Yggdrasil;&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; For heaven's bridge burns all in flame,&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; And the sacred waters seethe.&#xA;&#xA;There are 2 prevailing interpretations of this verse:&#xA;&#xA; 1. the verse is part of a larger set that prophecizes what will happen during Ragnarok&#xA; 2. when Thor leaves the heavens (i.e., when a thunder-storm is over) the rainbow-bridge becomes hot in the sun&#xA;&#xA;The rivers themselves are believed to be just beneath the tree roots of Yggdrasil. As to your question, Yggdrasil's roots form very weird cartography, as this illustration details:&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xA;&#xA;If we indeed take the rivers to be *under* the roots, then they are actually in the other realms. However, artist renderings do depict the rivers to be just under Bifrost, though there is no explicit reference to this in the Edda or Grimnismol:&#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xA;No other information is known about these 2 rivers. &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/NXDmo.jpg&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/OOz2F.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21569" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6176" RevisionGUID="f0109a13-2df7-4224-b46c-bb6153cfceb8" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In the Gospel of luke, Jesus exorcises a multitude of demons who call themselves Legion into a herd of pigs which he then drove into a lake.&#xA;&#xA;&gt; 26 They sailed to the region of the Gerasenes, which is across the lake from Galilee. 27 When Jesus stepped ashore, he was met by a demon-possessed man from the town. For a long time this man had not worn clothes or lived in a house, but had lived in the tombs. 28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell at his feet, shouting at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don’t torture me!” 29 For Jesus had commanded the impure spirit to come out of the man. Many times it had seized him, and though he was chained hand and foot and kept under guard, he had broken his chains and had been driven by the demon into solitary places.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;30 Jesus asked him, “What is your name?”&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;Legion,” he replied, because many demons had gone into him. 31 And they begged Jesus repeatedly not to order them to go into the Abyss.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;32 A large herd of pigs was feeding there on the hillside. The demons begged Jesus to let them go into the pigs, and he gave them permission. 33 When the demons came out of the man, they went into the pigs, and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and was drowned.  &lt;sub&gt;[Luke 8 New International Version (NIV)][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;As far as I know this is the earliest case of an exorcism. I have searched the [writings of Josephus][2] and the Tanakh for a mention of exorcism as noted by [Wikipedia][3] but to no avail. &#xA;&#xA;**Are there any older cases of exorcism in other mythology than the Abrahamic religions?** &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%208&amp;version=NIV&#xA;  [2]: http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/josephus/war7.html&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exorcism#Judaism" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21570" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6200" RevisionGUID="c5634322-93cb-40ec-a890-596df9385848" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Until recently, it was thought that the phenomena of solar eclipses was virtually unmentioned in the Ancient Egyptian canon. Except for a single story of Hathor luring Ra, the sun-god, back on his celestial track, very little concrete textual references were found. &#xA; &#xA;[This paper](http://www.egiptomania.com/EEF/Blindness.pdf) examines relevant texts which may throw some light on the mystery of the apparent absence of mentions of solar eclipses. &#xA;&#xA;Some of these texts are penitential, expressing remorse for wrongdoing and seeking forgiveness or the lifting of a punishment imposed by a god, while others are hymns and prayers. Although the form of the expressions used in the actual texts varies slightly from case to case and their translation varies from one researcher to another, all of these texts contain a form of words which seem to be trying to express the concept of darkness at a time which was unusual: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; ‘to see / behold darkness by day’ (of your making); &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; ‘to see a darkness of thy / my making’; &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; ‘in her hand by night as by day’ &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; ‘to see the darkness you create’; &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; ‘the day-time darkness thou has made’; &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; ‘to see day like night’;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;The list of relevant texts:&#xA;&#xA; - Stela Cairo JE 37463&#xA; - Ostracon Cairo 12202&#xA; - Grafitto Pawah (in TT139)&#xA; - Stela Bankes No. 6 (KRI I, 413)&#xA; - Stela BM 374 (KRI V, 645)&#xA; - Stela BM 589 (KRI III, 771-2) &#xA; - Stela Turin 50046 (KRI III, 668-9)&#xA; - Stela Turin 50050 (KRI IV, 338, B.VIII)&#xA; - Stela Turin 50051 (KRI I, 373-4)&#xA; - Stela Turin 50052 (KRI I, 390)&#xA; - Stela Turin 50058 (KRI III, 772-3) &#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21571" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5697" RevisionGUID="38d57518-69cc-44fe-9019-9e80e9c5bbed" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Richard Webster addresses this well-known superstition in *The Encyclopedia of Superstitions* and gives three theories for its origin:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Walking under a ladder is believed to cause bad luck. No one really knows why, but at least three theories have been proposed. The most likely theory is that a ladder forms a triangle when placed against a wall. The triangle symbolizes the Holy Trinity. Consequently, when you walk through it, you effectively insult the Trinity and attract the devil. The second theory concerns the use of a ladder in hangings. The ladder would be propped against a beam to allow the person about to be hanged to climb high enough to reach the rope. A third theory dates back to ancient Egyptian times, when people believed you might see a god walking up or down the ladder while you walked under it.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Webster, R. (2008). The encyclopedia of superstitions. Woodbury, Minn.: Llewellyn Publications.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;A version of the hangings theory can also be found in the much older *Encyclopaedia of Superstitions, Folklore and the Occult Sciences of the World*: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; The reason why it is believed to be unlucky to pass under a ladder, is because, in old times, convicts who were condemned to death were made to pass under a ladder; while those who were not condemned to death passed outside.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Daniels, C. (1903). Encyclopaedia of superstitions, folklore, and the occult sciences of the world.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21572" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5494" RevisionGUID="3a12af0f-7cd2-449f-8075-1aee481599cb" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="According to Hesiod, Cronus swallowed his children because he learned &quot;he was destined to be overcome by his own son&quot;: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; These great Cronos swallowed as each came forth from the womb to his mother's knees with this intent, that no other of the proud sons of Heaven should hold the kingly office amongst the deathless gods. For he learned from Earth and starry Heaven that he was destined to be overcome by his own son, strong though he was, through the contriving of great Zeus. Therefore he kept no blind outlook, but watched and swallowed down his children: and unceasing grief seized Rhea. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Hesiod. The Homeric Hymns and Homerica with an English Translation by Hugh G. Evelyn-White. Theogony. Cambridge, MA.,Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1914.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;However, Cronus didn't only swallow his sons Hades and Poseidon; he also swallowed his daughters, Hestia, Demeter and Hera. Why? Is there, perhaps, a version of the myth that allows for the possibility that a female child will overthrow Cronus?&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21573" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5686" RevisionGUID="61fe956b-fd81-4551-812d-9ab27cca2aea" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="From Revelation 4 (KJ21):&#xA;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt; and before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal. And in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four living beings full of eyes in front and behind.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;7&lt;/sup&gt; And the first being was like a lion, and the second being like a calf, and the third being had the face of a man, and the fourth being was like a flying eagle.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;8&lt;/sup&gt; And each of the four living beings had six wings about him, and they were full of eyes within; and they rested not day and night, saying, “Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come!”&#xA;&#xA;What do these four living beings represent?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21574" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5685" RevisionGUID="1dbae4c1-4c95-4353-9dc4-27873e961940" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Prometheus, acting on behalf of humankind, managed to trick Zeus into accepting only the bones and smoke of sacrificed animals - leaving the best bits, the edible meat and fat, to humans.&#xA;&#xA;The tale, known as the [trick at Mecone][1], can be found in another of Hesiod's works, the *Theogony*: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; For when the gods and mortal men had a dispute at Mecone, even then Prometheus was forward to cut up a great ox and set portions before them, trying to befool the mind of Zeus. Before the rest he set flesh and inner parts thick with fat upon the hide, covering them with an ox paunch; but for Zeus he put the white bones dressed up with cunning art and covered with shining fat. Then the father of men and of gods said to him: “Son of Iapetus, most glorious of all lords, good sir, how unfairly you have divided the portions!”&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; So said Zeus whose wisdom is everlasting, rebuking him. But wily Prometheus answered him, smiling softly and not forgetting his cunning trick: “Zeus, most glorious and greatest of the eternal gods, take which ever of these portions your heart within you bids.&quot; So he said, thinking trickery. But Zeus, whose wisdom is everlasting, saw and failed not to perceive the trick, and in his heart he thought mischief against mortal men which also was to be fulfilled. With both hands he took up the white fat and was angry at heart, and wrath came to his spirit when he saw the white ox-bones craftily tricked out: and because of this the tribes of men upon earth burn white bones to the deathless gods upon fragrant altars.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; But Zeus who drives the clouds was greatly vexed and said to him: “Son of Iapetus, clever above all! So, sir, you have not yet forgotten your cunning arts!”&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; So spake Zeus in anger, whose wisdom is everlasting; and from that time he was always mindful of the trick, and would not give the power of unwearying fire to the Melian race of mortal men who live on the earth.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Hesiod. The Homeric Hymns and Homerica with an English Translation by Hugh G. Evelyn-White. Theogony. Cambridge, MA.,Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1914.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trick_at_Mecone" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21575" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5550" RevisionGUID="02d16203-57f1-4e80-ad80-6e851d3a7d5b" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The Mojave creator Matevilye (alt. Matavilya, Mutavilya) died from an illness caused by his daughter eating his excrement:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; According to the Mohave, the first were the sky, a man, and the earth, a woman. These met far in the west, and from them were born, first Matevilye, and after him his daughter the frog, Mastamho who is usually called his younger brother, all the people, the animals, and plants. All these went upward toward the east, under the leadership of Matevilye. Matevilye himself did not walk. He merely moved four times, twice to the left and twice to the right. Thereby he arrived at Ahavulypo, a narrow defile on the Colorado River above Cottonwood Island, probably near the lower end of Eldorado Canyon. He stretched out his arms to the ends of the world and thereby found this spot to be the centre of the earth. Here he built a house. He became sick because the frog his daughter, whom he had offended by an indecency, ate his excrement; and it was known that he would die. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; When he died, Coyote, whose intentions were suspected, was sent far away to bring fire for the funeral pyre. During Coyote's absence fire was produced among the people by the fly, a woman, who rubbed her thigh. Matevilye was then burned. According to the usual account, although this episode does not form part of the version on which the present relation is based, Coyote returned as the pyre was in flames. The people surrounded this in a close ring. Coyote succeeded in leaping over the head of the badger, who was short, seized Matevilye's heart, and escaped with it. Under the direction of Mastamho the people then made for Matevilye the first mourning ceremony in the world.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Two Myths of the Mission Indians of California. A. L. Kroeber. The Journal of American Folklore Vol. 19, No. 75 (Oct. - Dec., 1906), pp. 309-321&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21576" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5551" RevisionGUID="c0551d9c-eed3-41ab-becf-3d4a7551c0dd" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Matevilye, a creator deity of the Mojave, offended his daughter so greatly that she killed him (in a rather bizarre fashion): &#xA;&#xA;&gt; According to the Mohave, the first were the sky, a man, and the earth, a woman. These met far in the west, and from them were born, first Matevilye, and after him his daughter the frog, Mastamho who is usually called his younger brother, all the people, the animals, and plants. All these went upward toward the east, under the leadership of Matevilye. Matevilye himself did not walk. He merely moved four times, twice to the left and twice to the right. Thereby he arrived at Ahavulypo, a narrow defile on the Colorado River above Cottonwood Island, probably near the lower end of Eldorado Canyon. He stretched out his arms to the ends of the world and thereby found this spot to be the centre of the earth. Here he built a house. He became sick because the frog his daughter, whom he had offended by an indecency, ate his excrement; and it was known that he would die. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Two Myths of the Mission Indians of California. A. L. Kroeber. The Journal of American Folklore Vol. 19, No. 75 (Oct. - Dec., 1906), pp. 309-321&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;What was Matevilye's indecency? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21577" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5553" RevisionGUID="c59b46c2-02cc-4d36-aafb-67f69dd0bf5d" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="The ethnographer Nikolaos Politis in tale 933 of his *Paradoseis* records the belief that [vrykolakes][1], the Greek folklore version of the vampire, cannot cross the sea. Although this doesn't completely prevent migration, it severely restricts it. &#xA;&#xA;I'm not entirely aware of how widespread this belief was in the rest of the Balkans, the region where most of the vampiric lore originated from. However, it probably was widespread enough to inspire Bram Stoker to apply a similar limitation to Dracula:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; He is also limited in his ability to travel, as he can only cross running water at low or high tide. Due to this, he is unable to fly across a river in the form of a bat or mist or even by himself board a boat or step off a boat onto a dock unless he is physically carried over with assistance. He is also unable to enter a place unless invited to do so by someone of the household, even a visitor; once invited, he can enter and leave the premises at will.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Wikipedia contributors. (2019, March 12). Count Dracula. In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 09:00, March 28, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Count_Dracula&amp;oldid=887434126&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Related questions: &#xA;&#xA;- https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/3028/57&#xA;- https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/2010/57&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vrykolakas" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21578" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5556" RevisionGUID="1a18ef08-77b4-411f-8198-a420e71d5da4" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="I stumbled upon this [summary of the Mojave flood myth][1]: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Many years ago, people lived under the ground. There came a time when there was no food, when the people sent a humming-bird up to see what he could find for them to eat. He saw the deep roots of a grapevine, which he followed up to the surface of the earth. The people went up through the hole and began living above ground. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; One day a man looked down into the hole made by the vine, through which the people had entered the upper world, and saw that water was rising up through it. The wise ones knew that a great flood was coming and that something had to be done to save humankind. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; They then cut down a great tree and hollowed it out to make a canoe, placing a young girl in it. The tree-trunk canoe floated high on the waters until nothing but water could be seen in any direction The wise ones had warned the girl not to leave the vessel until it touched land, even if she heard the waters going down. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Finally, the tree-trunk canoe touched ground. When the girl emerged, all the world had been drowned. She wondered whether she would always be alone. She went up to the mountains to rest. As she lay down, the sun shone on her, warming water that dripped down on her body from the rocks. This magic water impregnated her and she later gave birth to a daughter who conceived in the same way. All of us are descended from her.&#xA;&#xA;I wonder what caused the waters to rise. Is there a version of the myth that explains why the flood happened?&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.bigorrin.org/archive30.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21579" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5578" RevisionGUID="9aebb208-94c2-4989-a265-59eb4e91f867" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In the first book of the Iliad Achilles mentions that Thetis, his sea nymph mother, once saved Zeus from a rebellion by Poseidon, Hera and Athena: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Help your brave son, therefore, if you are able. Go to Olympus, and if you have ever done him service in word or deed, implore the aid of Jove. Ofttimes in my father's house have I heard you glory in that you alone of the immortals saved the son of Saturn from ruin, when the others, with Juno, Neptune, and Pallas Minerva would have put him in bonds. It was you, goddess, who delivered him by calling to Olympus the hundred-handed monster whom gods call Briareus, but men Aegaeon, for he is stronger even than his father; when therefore he took his seat all-glorious beside the son of Saturn, the other gods were afraid, and did not bind him. Go, then, to him, remind him of all this, clasp his knees, and bid him give succour to the Trojans. Let the Achaeans be hemmed in at the sterns of their ships, and perish on the sea-shore, that they may reap what joy they may of their king, and that Agamemnon may rue his blindness in offering insult to the foremost of the Achaeans. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Iliad. By Homer. Translated by Samuel Butler&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Do we know any details about this? Why did the three Olympians challenge Zeus? Were they punished afterwards? How exactly did Thetis manage to overcome three more powerful - presumably - gods?&#xA;&#xA;Also, since all three Olympians have pre-Homeric roots, could this story echo an earlier tale of divine rebellion? &#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21580" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5580" RevisionGUID="f36a3a96-dc4b-4f1d-9982-cac09fd284ff" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="OK, so there are a couple of misconceptions here. First, as Codosaur has already pointed out, [Cronus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus) and [Chronos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronos) aren't necessarily the same being -- they just have similar names.&#xA;&#xA;On the other hand, Cronus and Chronos were confused with each other even in antiquity. In fact the Roman god [Saturn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_(mythology)), who the Romans associated with the Greek god Cronus, was sometimes regarded as a god of Time.&#xA;&#xA;This gives us a reason to address the more fundamental misconception -- even if we're allowed to conflate the Titan Cronus with the personnification of Time, this doesn't grant him some sort of &quot;superpower&quot; to turn back time.  &#xA;&#xA; &gt; _Tempus edax rerum, tuque, invidiosa vetustas, omnia destruitis vitiataque dentibus aevi paulatim lenta consumitis omnia morte!_&#xA; &gt;&#xA; &gt; _(O Time, devourer of all things, and envious Age, together you destroy all that exists and, slowly gnawing, bring on lingering death.)_&#xA;&#xA;(Ovid, _Metamorphoses_, 15, Tr. Brookes Moore, availableat the [Theoi Project](https://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses15.html))&#xA;&#xA;The ancient Greeks and Romans didn't think of time as something that could be reversed -- this is in line with the [fatalism](https://www.britannica.com/topic/fatalism) that expresses itself time after time in their mythology. You couldn't cheat fate by going back in time and changing things. &#xA;&#xA;Instead, Time was regarded as a force that devours everything and wears it away to nothing. This may have been something Goya had in mind when he painted his famous painting of Saturn:&#xA;&#xA;![Francisco Goya, Saturn Devouring his Son](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Francisco_de_Goya%2C_Saturno_devorando_a_su_hijo_%281819-1823%29.jpg)&#xA;&#xA;(Source: Wikimedia Commons)&#xA;&#xA;Finally, we can answer why Zeus won. The most facile reason is that he was fated to do so, because Fate already ruled the gods. More to the point, Zeus had some powerful allies. His mother Rhea, whose strategies had kept Zeus from being swallowed along with his brothers and sisters. He had his brothers and sisters, whom Cronus had vomited up after Zeus gave him the drink Rhea concocted  for the purpose. The Cyclopes and a couple of titans such as Prometheus allied with Zeus. Most important were the [Hekatonchires](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecatoncheires) or &quot;Hundred-handed ones&quot; imprisoned by Cronus's father Ouranos: &#xA;&#xA;&gt;But when first their father was vexed in his heart with Briareus and Cottus and Gyes, he bound them in cruel bonds, because he was jealous of their exceeding manhood and comeliness and great size: and he made them live beneath the wide-pathed earth, where they were afflicted, being set to dwell under the ground, at the end of the earth, at its great borders, in bitter anguish for a long time and with great grief at heart. But the son of Cronos and the other deathless gods whom rich-haired Rhea bare from union with Cronos, brought them up again to the light at Earth's advising. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;And blameless Cottus answered him again: `Divine one, you speak that which we know well: nay, even of ourselves we know that your wisdom and understanding is exceeding, and that you became a defender of the deathless ones from chill doom. And through your devising we are come back again from the murky gloom and from our merciless bonds, enjoying what we looked not for, O lord, son of Cronos. And so now with fixed purpose and deliberate counsel we will aid your power in dreadful strife and will fight against the Titans in hard battle.'&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; ...&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; And amongst the foremost Cottus and Briareos and Gyes insatiate for war raised fierce fighting: three hundred rocks, one upon another, they launched from their strong hands and overshadowed the Titans with their missiles, and buried them beneath the wide-pathed earth, and bound them in bitter chains when they had conquered them by their strength for all their great spirit, as far beneath the earth to Tartarus. &#xA;&#xA;(The Theogony of Hesiod. tr. Hugh G. Evelyn-White, lines 617 ff.), at http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21581" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5581" RevisionGUID="6229c242-d77e-42ac-abbf-a8a295ffa989" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="According to this [Quora answer](https://www.quora.com/When-did-chicken-become-synonymous-with-afraid-terrified/answer/Jonathon-Green?srid=Odhf&amp;share=1) on the exact same topic:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The primary uses, however, remain those that suggest weakness. Thus the early use to mean a girl or woman, which would become the more recent chick. Such chickens also suggest the 'cuteness' and 'fluffiness' of the creature.  &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The first example we have of chicken meaning a coward comes in 1600. It runs thus:&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &gt; 1600 W. Kemp Nine Days’ Wonder: It did him good to have ill words of a hoddy doddy! a hebber de hoy!, a chicken! a squib." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21582" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5582" RevisionGUID="2aa86b11-7581-42a9-9bab-781198b14cbc" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In the [Iliad (Book V)][1] Ares complains to Zeus that he lets Athena - the pestilent maiden - get away with anything:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Speedily he came to the abode of the gods, to steep Olympus, and sate him down by the side of Zeus, son of Cronos, grieved at heart, and shewed the immortal blood flowing from the wound, and with wailing spake to him winged words: &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; “Father Zeus, hast thou no indignation to behold these violent deeds? Ever do we gods continually suffer most cruelly by one another's devices, whenas we show favour to men. With thee are we all at strife, for thou art father to that mad and baneful maid, whose mind is ever set on deeds of lawlessness. For all the other gods that are in Olympus are obedient unto thee, and subject to thee, each one of us; but to her thou payest no heed whether in word or in deed, but rather settest her on, for that this pestilent maiden is thine own child. Now hath she set on the son of Tydeus, Diomedes high of heart, to vent his rage upon immortal gods. Cypris first he wounded with a thrust in close fight upon the hand at the wrist, and thereafter rushed upon mine own self as he had been a god. Howbeit my swift feet bare me away; otherwise had I long suffered woes there amid the gruesome heaps of the dead, or else had lived strengthless by reason of the smitings of the spear.” &#xA;&#xA;This is in response to Athena helping her favorite Diomedes wound Ares in battle. &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D5%3Acard%3D864" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21583" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5605" RevisionGUID="dc282372-cc14-4897-bb27-ac309f667145" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In Greek mythology [Atalanta][1] the virgin huntress was abandoned by her father in the wild and was cared for by a bear:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Lycurgus had sons, Ancaeus, Epochus, Amphidamas, and Iasus, by Cleophyle or Eurynome. And Amphidamas had a son Melanion and a daughter Antimache, whom Eurystheus married. And Iasus had a daughter Atalanta by Clymene, daughter of Minyas. This Atalanta was exposed by her father, because he desired male children; and a she bear came often and gave her suck, till hunters found her and brought her up among themselves.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Apollodorus. Apollodorus, The Library, with an English Translation by Sir James George Frazer, F.B.A., F.R.S. in 2 Volumes. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1921.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Enkidu's story is certainly older, however, I would assert that Enkidu was not abandoned as a child - in fact, was never a child - and thus does not quite fit the feral child motif. In any case, even if Atalanta's story isn't the earliest, it's certainly unique in that it is about a female child and not a male one.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atalanta" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21584" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5608" RevisionGUID="59b1c53c-d644-4529-85d5-ed768c6f3262" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="According to [Project Britain's folklore calendar][1] buying a broom or washing blankets in May should be avoided:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Never buy a broom in May or wash blankets.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; *Wash a blanket in May.*  &#xA;&gt; *Wash a dear one away.*&#xA;&#xA;Why is that so? Where does this superstition come from?&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: http://projectbritain.com/year/may.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21585" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6213" RevisionGUID="f7ad69c5-4c50-448d-b8aa-d6914a99229a" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="## Technically, there isn't one (that we know of).&#xA;&#xA;Other comments here have mentioned Hathor and Apep/Apophis.  But this is misleading and misrepresents those figures.&#xA;&#xA;Apep is the embodiment of pure Chaos. He resides in the underworld, and does battle with Re and his entourage.  If Apep were ever to succeed, that wouldn't spell an eclipse, but rather it would mean the destruction of all Order and goodness in the world. At present, there are no explicit associations known of Apep with eclipses.&#xA;&#xA;Hathor is more complicated.  She is a sky deity (N.B., not *the* sky deity -- which is Nut -- but *a* sky deity), associated with the night sky as well as being one possible personification of the sun eye (or Eye of Re). She's also associated with music, dancing, cows, and cats, among other things.&#xA;&#xA;The body of mythology involving Hathor, including her role in the daily rebirth of the sun, is vast.  But there *may* be one story about an eclipse.&#xA;&#xA;There are different variations of this myth, but in short, either a) Re sends the sun eye (which can act independently from him) off to slaughter a bunch of misbehaving humans; b) the sun eye gets mad at Re and leaves for a bit; or c) both of these events occur. In this particular episode, Hathor is the figure fulfilling the role of Re's eye.&#xA;&#xA;Ultimately, things get resolved (by the diplomatic Thoth) and things return to normal.&#xA;&#xA;Should we associate this story with eclipses?  Maybe, but it's never indicated in the story that the sun is  &quot;hidden&quot; in some way: In the version where the sun eye gets angry and leaves temporarily, it's because there is *another* sun eye there taking her place!&#xA;&#xA;In the end, at best we can say is that there quite possibly may be a myth associated with eclipses. But Hathor (or any other Egyptian deity) is never depicted as an &quot;eclipse god&quot; in any surviving writings to date.&#xA;&#xA;If you'd like to investigate this further, I recommend [this book.][1] It specifically discusses Hathor and this myth, and the author raises the possibility of the eclipse association.&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=Xt-mDwAAQBAJ&amp;dq=hathor%20eclipse&amp;source=gbs_navlinks_s" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21586" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5612" RevisionGUID="a2d43299-f118-492b-9376-fc499102709f" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Perses was a son of Helios and the Oceanid Perse. He is the least well-known of his siblings, Aeëtes (the king of Colchis), Pasiphaë (the wife of king Minos of Crete) and Circe (the famed sorceress). &#xA;&#xA;Wikipedia has an article on Perses, but it offers limited information and does not cite any sources: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; In Greek mythology, Perses was the brother of Aeëtes, Circe and Pasiphaë (which makes him a son of Helios, presumably by Perse the Oceanid). He usurped the throne of Colchis from his brother, but was subsequently slain by Medea, his paternal niece. He is not to be confused with the Titan known as Perses, who is known for fathering Hecate.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Wikipedia contributors. (2018, December 19). Perses of Colchis. In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 15:24, May 3, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Perses_of_Colchis&amp;oldid=874445065&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Madeline Miller in her celebrated novel [*Circe*][1] which - understandably - spends quite some time discussing Circe's family and their interactions with each other presents a different story: Perses is a sorcerer, continuing the family tradition, and is living in Persia. He occasionally visits Aeëtes in Colchis but there's no mention of him usurping the throne or getting killed by Medea.  &#xA;&#xA;What is the source of the information presented on Wikipedia? Is Madeline Miller's version based on an ancient story? What else do we know of Perses?&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.amazon.com/CIRCE-New-York-Times-bestseller/dp/0316556343&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21587" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5616" RevisionGUID="a5833d07-3f40-457a-8a8e-39a9629ed9de" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In *Odyssey 14* [Eumaeus][1] the swineherd is the first person that meets Odysseus upon his return to Ithaca. Although he doesn't recognize his master, he offers him shelter and treats him to a feast:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Then the goodly swineherd called to his comrades saying: “Bring forth the best of the boars, that I may slaughter him for the stranger who comes from afar, and we too shall have some profit therefrom, who have long borne toil and suffering for the sake of the white-tusked swine, while others devour our labour without atonement.” So saying, he split wood with the pitiless bronze, and the others brought in a fatted boar of five years old, and set him by the hearth. Nor did the swineherd forget the immortals, for he had an understanding heart, but as a first offering he cast into the fire bristles from the head of the white-tusked boar, and made prayer to all the gods that wise Odysseus might return to his own house. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; Then he raised himself up, and smote the boar with a billet of oak, which he had left when splitting the wood, and the boar's life left him. And the others cut the boar's throat, and signed him, and quickly cut him up, and the swineherd took as first offerings bits of raw flesh from all the limbs, and laid them in the rich fat. These he cast into the fire, when he had sprinkled them with barley meal, but the rest they cut up and spitted, and roasted it carefully, and drew it all off the spits, and cast it in a heap on platters. Then the swineherd stood up to carve, for well did his heart know what was fair, and he cut up the mess and divided it into seven portions. One with a prayer he set aside for the nymphs and for Hermes, son of Maia, and the rest he distributed to each. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; And Odysseus he honored with the long chine of the white-tusked boar, and made glad the heart of his master; and Odysseus of many wiles spoke to him, and said: “Eumaeus, mayest thou be as dear to father Zeus as thou art to me, since thou honourest me with a good portion, albeit I am in such plight.” To him then, swineherd Eumaeus, didst thou make answer, and say: “Eat, unhappy stranger, and have joy of such fare as is here. It is the god that will give one thing and withhold another, even as seems good to his heart; for he can do all things.”&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Homer. The Odyssey with an English Translation by A.T. Murray, PH.D. in two volumes. Cambridge, MA., Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann, Ltd. 1919.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Why does Eumaeus set aside a portion for the nymphs and for Hermes? &#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eumaeus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21588" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5623" RevisionGUID="36e8517b-f6df-4aea-95f5-3857ec4ce5f4" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="Pausanias tells the legend of the [Teumessian fox][1], a fox destined never to be caught sent by Dionysus to destroy Thebes, the god's birthplace according to the Zeus and Semele narrative:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; 9\.19\.1 On this highway is a place called Teumessus, where it is said that Europa was hidden by Zeus. There is also another legend, which tells of a fox called the Teumessian fox, how owing to the wrath of Dionysus the beast was reared to destroy the Thebans, and how, when about to be caught by the hound given by Artemis to Procris the daughter of Erechtheus, the fox was turned into a stone, as was likewise this hound. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Pausanias. Pausanias Description of Greece with an English Translation by W.H.S. Jones, Litt.D., and H.A. Ormerod, M.A., in 4 Volumes. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1918.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;What did the Thebans do to deserve this punishment?&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teumessian_fox" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21589" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5646" RevisionGUID="46db1398-4560-407d-b17a-92d6b28ee62a" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="If memory serves, Mikhail Bakunin was particularly fond of the story of [Prometheus][1], the Titan of forethought. Prometheus defied the Olympians (the ruling class), stole fire from Zeus (the king) and gifted it to humanity. It does not get any more anti-authority than that! &#xA;&#xA;Here's one version of the myth, from Hesiod's *Works and Days*: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; For the gods keep hidden from men the means of life. Else you would easily do work enough in a day to supply you for a full year even without working; soon would you put away your rudder over the smoke, and the fields worked by ox and sturdy mule would run to waste. But Zeus in the anger of his heart hid it, because Prometheus the crafty deceived him; therefore he planned sorrow and mischief against men. He hid fire; but that the noble son of Iapetus stole again for men from Zeus the counsellor in a hollow fennel-stalk, so that Zeus who delights in thunder did not see it. But afterwards Zeus who gathers the clouds said to him in anger: “Son of Iapetus, surpassing all in cunning, you are glad that you have outwitted me and stolen fire—a great plague to you yourself and to men that shall be. But I will give men as the price for fire an evil thing in which they may all be glad of heart while they embrace their own destruction.” &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Hesiod. The Homeric Hymns and Homerica with an English Translation by Hugh G. Evelyn-White. Works and Days. Cambridge, MA.,Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1914.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;The &quot;evil thing&quot; Zeus gave men was [Pandora's jar][2], a jar that contained every evil there is (but also hope). Prometheus was also severely punished. Zeus bound him on a rock and had an eagle feed on his liver. The Titan's liver would grow back overnight&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; to be eaten again the next day. The hero [Heracles][3] eventually saves Prometheus when he comes across him on his way to steal the apples of the Hesperides.&#xA;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; Interestingly, this might suggest that the ancient Greeks were aware of the liver's regenerative abilities.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heracles" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21590" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5647" RevisionGUID="574f56fb-358b-42d7-8ef7-8c2b11315a65" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In *Odyssey 8.215* Odysseus briefly brags about his archery skills to the Phaeacians:  &#xA;&#xA;&gt; For in all things I am no weakling, even in all the contests that are practised among men. Well do I know how to handle the polished bow, and ever would I be the first to shoot and smite my man in the throng of the foe, even though many comrades stood by me and were shooting at the men. Only Philoctetes excelled me with the bow in the land of the Trojans, when we Achaeans shot. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Homer. The Odyssey with an English Translation by A.T. Murray, PH.D. in two volumes. Cambridge, MA., Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann, Ltd. 1919.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;I could not find any instance in either the Homeric epics where Odysseus actually uses a bow in combat. However, given his statements to the Phaeacians, I think it's safe to say that the more observant of Homer's audience would recognize the story was reaching closure once the bard started singing of Penelope's plan for an archery contest.&#xA;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21591" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5653" RevisionGUID="84a12ae0-90d6-4620-b06c-a6b56b7437ae" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="From Revelation 11 (KJ21):&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.”&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks, standing before the God of the earth.&#xA;&#xA;Who are these two witnesses?&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21592" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5654" RevisionGUID="cc8412e7-604b-46e1-8b37-8b7062e880cf" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="**Yes.** &#xA;&#xA;Athena (and Hera) lost the [Judgment of Paris][1] to Aphrodite:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; [E.3.2] For one of these reasons Strife threw an apple as a prize of beauty to be contended for by Hera, Athena, and Aphrodite; and Zeus commanded Hermes to lead them to Alexander on Ida in order to be judged by him. And they promised to give Alexander gifts. Hera said that if she were preferred to all women, she would give him the kingdom over all men; and Athena promised victory in war, and Aphrodite the hand of Helen. And he decided in favour of Aphrodite51; and sailed away to Sparta with ships built by Phereclus.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Apollodorus. The Library. Translated by Sir James George Frazer. Loeb Classical Library Volumes 121 &amp; 122. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1921.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;If you also count ties, she tied with Poseidon in their contest for patronage over Troezen: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; [2.30.6] During his reign, they say, Athena and Poseidon disputed about the land, and after disputing held it in common, as Zeus commanded them to do. For this reason they worship both Athena, whom they name both Polias (Urban) and Sthenias (Strong), and also Poseidon, under the surname of King. And moreover their old coins have as device a trident and a face of Athena.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Pausanias. Description of Greece. Translated by Jones, W. H. S. and Omerod, H. A. Loeb Classical Library Volumes. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1918.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgement_of_Paris" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21593" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5656" RevisionGUID="cdbf2b69-61b8-4c44-beaa-5f81e556729f" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="At the beginning of *Hrafnsmál* the Valkyrie calls the raven &quot;the skull picker of Hymir&quot;:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; 1\. Hearken, noblemen, while I celebrate Harold the magnificent and his feats of arms. I will tell of the words which I heard spoken by a maiden fair and golden haired as she held converse with a raven. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; 2\. The valkyrie prided herself on her wisdom ; — and the warlike maid took no pleasure in men, for she knew the language of birds. With white throat and sparkling eyes she greeted the skull picker of Hymir as he sat on a jutting ledge of rock, &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; 3\. 'How is it with you, ye ravens? Whence are ye come with bloody beak at the dawning of day? Torn flesh is hanging from your talons, and a reek of carrion comes from your mouths. I doubt not that ye have passed the night amid a scene of carnage.' &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Anglo-Saxon and Norse Poems. Edited and translated by N. Kershaw.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;Is this a reference to the giant Hymir (and his unusually hard skull)? &#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21594" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5666" RevisionGUID="835cb18d-dda8-4320-9a88-dfac42e51b85" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In N. Kershaw's translation of *Hrafnsmál* we learn that champions play chess in Harold's court: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; 8\. Very magnificent is the life enjoyed by the glorious champions who play chess in Harold's court. They are enriched with money and with splendid swords, with the metal of Himaland and with girls from the East. &#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; 9\. Their spirits are high when they know that there is a prospect of battle. Eager are they to leap up and bend their oars, to break the oar loops and split the tholes, to churn up the waters with mighty strokes, as I can aver, at the command of their prince.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: Anglo-Saxon and Norse Poems. Edited and translated by N. Kershaw.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;I wonder what the game is called in the original, and if it's indeed a game we would identify with chess. Or if it's one of the [tafl games][1], Hnefatafl perhaps, translated to chess for convenience.&#xA; &#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tafl_games" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21595" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5682" RevisionGUID="105b7b2c-4891-4155-9c76-112982901d90" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="For the sake of future readers, here's some info taken from [my answer][1] to [this Latin.SE question][2]; I'm not at all sure I've found the *first* syncretism, and _interpretatio graeca_ definitely happened earlier too (since Herodotus is quick to connect Greek and Egyptian gods), but this is the oldest written source I've found that concerns specifically Roman deities: it predates Tacitus's _Germania_ by about a century.&#xA;&#xA;In Dionysius of Halicarnassus's _Roman Antiquities_ 2.34 (first century BCE):&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Μετὰ δὲ τὴι πομπήν τε καὶ θυσίαν νεὼν κατασκευάσας ὁ Ῥωμύλος ἐπὶ τῆς κορυφῆς τοῦ Καπιτωλίου **Διός, ὃν ἐπικαλοῦσι Ῥωμαῖοι Φερέτριον**, οὐ μέγαν (ἔτι γὰρ αὐτοῦ σώζεται τὸ ἀρχαῖον ἴχνος ἐλάττονας ἢ πέντε ποδῶν καὶ δέκα τὰς μείζους πλευρὰς ἔχον)&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; *Then, after that triumph, and the sacrifice, Romulus built a new temple **to Zeus (whom the Romans call &quot;Feretrius&quot;)** at the top of the Capitoline Hill. It wasn't very big—the old foundations still survive, and the longest side is less than fifteen feet long.*&#xA;&#xA;(Translation and emphasis mine.)&#xA;&#xA;This was the Temple of Jupiter Feretrius, the oldest temple in Rome, where the *spolia opima* were brought after a war. According to Nepos, it fell into ruin sometime before Caesar and was rebuilt by Augustus.&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://latin.stackexchange.com/a/10765/406&#xA;  [2]: https://latin.stackexchange.com/q/6033/406" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21596" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5684" RevisionGUID="3893df71-43b1-4c33-9e4e-71bde163f90e" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="In Hesiod's *Works and Days*, we learn that Zeus hid fire from humankind in anger because Prometheus had deceived him:  &#xA;&#xA;&gt;  For the gods keep hidden from men the means of life. Else you would easily do work enough in a day to supply you for a full year even without working; soon would you put away your rudder over the smoke, and the fields worked by ox and sturdy mule would run to waste. But Zeus in the anger of his heart hid it, because Prometheus the crafty deceived him; therefore he planned sorrow and mischief against men. He hid fire; but that the noble son of Iapetus stole again for men from Zeus the counsellor in a hollow fennel-stalk, so that Zeus who delights in thunder did not see it. But afterwards Zeus who gathers the clouds said to him in anger:&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; “Son of Iapetus, surpassing all in cunning,  you are glad that you have outwitted me and stolen fire—a great plague to you yourself and to men that shall be. But I will give men as the price for fire an evil thing in which they may all be glad of heart while they embrace their own destruction.”&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Hesiod. The Homeric Hymns and Homerica with an English Translation by Hugh G. Evelyn-White. Works and Days. Cambridge, MA.,Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1914.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;How did Prometheus deceive Zeus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21597" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5614" RevisionGUID="3764804f-5eed-438a-b1ab-28fbbc84cde5" CreationDate="2020-06-18T08:35:28.830" UserId="-1" Comment="Commonmark migration" Text="## Queen Dido&#xA;&#xA;The legendary Carthaginian [Queen Dido][1] kills herself in despair after her lover Aeneas, [son of Aphrodite][2], abandons her. &#xA;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xA;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xA;&#xA;## Tristan &amp; Isolde&#xA;&#xA;Joseph Campbell wrote about these two, emphasizing the unification of divine and romantic love *(he calls it &quot;Roma&quot; vs. &quot;Amor&quot;, Roma referencing the seat of the Catholic church in Rome.)*  The legend provides the template for Romeo &amp; Juliet, the background for Malory's *Le Morte d'Arthur*, and is the subject of one of Wagner's operas, quoted in [The Wasteland][4]. &#xA;&#xA;&gt; Tristan was now too weak to keep his watch from the cliff of the Penmarks, and for many long days, within walls, far from the shore, he had mourned for Iseult because she did not come. Dolorous and alone, he mourned and sighed in restlessness: he was near death from desire.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; At last the wind freshened and the white sail showed. Then it was that [Tristan's wife] took her vengeance [telling him his lover would not come to heal him]. And Tristan turned him to the wall, and said: “I cannot keep this life of mine any longer.” He said three times: “Iseult, my friend.” And in saying it the fourth time, he died. &lt;br&gt;&#xA;...&lt;br&gt;&#xA;&gt;Iseult came in and said [to her]: “Lady, rise and let me come by him; I have more right to mourn him than have you—believe me. I loved him more.”&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt;And when [Iseult] had turned to the east and prayed God, she moved the body a little and lay down by the dead man, beside her friend. She kissed his mouth and his face, and clasped him closely; and so gave up her soul, and died beside him of grief for her lover.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;“Le Roman de Tristan et Iseut,” by M. Joseph Bédier [(Gutenberg.org)][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;After their deaths, a rose briar grows up above their tombs, entwining, as a symbol of their immortal love.  This incredibly influential legend is believed itself to have been influenced by Pyramus and Thisbe. &#xA;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;## Pyramus and Thisbe&#xA;&#xA;In [Metamorphoses IV. 55-166][6] you will find the story of Pyramus and Thisbe, an early example of star-crossed lovers. A brief summary of the plot, from Wikipedia: &#xA;&#xA;&gt; In Ovid's Metamorphoses, Pyramus and Thisbe are two lovers in the city of Babylon who occupy connected houses/walls, forbidden by their parents to be wed, because of their parents' rivalry. Through a crack in one of the walls, they whisper their love for each other. They arrange to meet near Ninus' tomb under a mulberry tree and state their feelings for each other. Thisbe arrives first, but upon seeing a lioness with a mouth bloody from a recent kill, she flees, leaving behind her veil. When Pyramus arrives he is horrified at the sight of Thisbe's veil in which the lioness had torn and left traces of blood behind, as well as its tracks. Assuming that a wild beast has killed her, Pyramus kills himself, falling on his sword, a typical Babylonian way to commit suicide, and in turn splashing blood on the white mulberry leaves. Pyramus' blood stains the white mulberry fruits, turning them dark. Thisbe returns, eager to tell Pyramus what had happened to her, but she finds Pyramus' dead body under the shade of the mulberry tree. Thisbe, after a brief period of mourning, stabs herself with the same sword. In the end, the gods listen to Thisbe's lament, and forever change the colour of the mulberry fruits into the stained colour to honour the forbidden love.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Wikipedia contributors. (2019, May 3). Pyramus and Thisbe. In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 20:04, May 4, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pyramus_and_Thisbe&amp;oldid=895386980&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xA;&#xA;## Hero and Leander&#xA;&#xA;A brief summary of the story from Britannica:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Hero and Leander, two lovers celebrated in Greek legend. Hero, virgin priestess of Aphrodite at Sestos, was seen at a festival by Leander of Abydos; they fell in love, and he swam the Hellespont at night to visit her, guided by a light from her tower. One stormy night the light was extinguished, and Leander was drowned; Hero, seeing his body, drowned herself likewise.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; The story is preserved in Musaeus, Ovid, and elsewhere. It was also adapted by later poets, such as Christopher Marlowe (Hero and Leander), and alluded to by Lord Byron (The Bride of Abydos).&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica. Hero and Leander. Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved May 07, 2019, from&#xA;https://www.britannica.com/topic/Hero-Greek-mythology&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xA;&#xA;## Phaedra and Hippolytus&#xA;&#xA;The love of Phaedra for Hippolytus is unrequited, but it ends in death(s) too:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Though married to Theseus, Phaedra fell in love with Hippolytus,&#xA;&gt; Theseus's son by another woman (born to either Hippolyta, queen of the&#xA;&gt; Amazons, or Antiope, her sister). Hippolytus rejected her.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; In revenge, Phaedra wrote Theseus a letter that claimed Hippolytus had&#xA;&gt; raped her. Theseus believed her and cursed Hippolytus with one of the&#xA;&gt; three curses he had received from Poseidon. As a result,&#xA;&gt; Hippolytus's horses were frightened by a sea monster and dragged their&#xA;&gt; rider to his death.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; In another version, after Phaedra told Theseus that Hippolytus had&#xA;&gt; raped her, Theseus killed his son, and Phaedra then committed suicide&#xA;&gt; out of guilt, for she had not intended Hippolytus to die. Artemis&#xA;&gt; later told Theseus the truth.&#xA;&gt;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Wikipedia contributors. (2019, May 7). Phaedra (mythology). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 15:04, May 7, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaedra_(mythology)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;&lt;br&gt;&#xA;&#xA;## Oenone and Paris&#xA;&#xA;Oenone was a mountain nymph and the wife of Paris, until the Trojan prince abandoned her for Helen. After the fall of Troy the once lovers met again:&#xA;&#xA;&gt; Mortally wounded by Philoctetes' arrow, he begged Oenone to heal him&#xA;&gt; with her herbal arts, but she refused and cast him out with scorn,&#xA;&gt; to return to Helen's bed, and Paris died on the lower slopes of Ida.&#xA;&gt; Then, overcome with remorse, Oenone, the one whole-hearted mourner of&#xA;&gt; Paris, threw herself onto his burning funeral pyre, which the&#xA;&gt; shepherds had raised. A fragment of Bacchylides suggests that she&#xA;&gt; threw herself off a cliff, in Bibliotheke it is noted &quot;when she&#xA;&gt; found him dead she hanged herself,&quot; and Lycophron imagined her&#xA;&gt; hurtling head first from the towering walls of Troy. Her tragic story&#xA;&gt; makes one of the Love Romances of Parthenius of Nicaea.&#xA;&gt; &#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Wikipedia contributors. (2019, May 8). Oenone. In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 15:04, May 8, 2019, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oenone&lt;/sub&gt;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneid#Book_4:_Fate_of_Queen_Dido&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneas#Homeric_Hymn_to_Aphrodite&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/J8dnR.jpg&#xA;  [4]: https://wasteland.windingway.org/31/frisch-weht-der-wind&#xA;  [5]: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14244/14244-h/14244-h.htm&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0028%3Abook%3D4%3Acard%3D55" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21598" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5451" RevisionGUID="53be50db-7b88-4a6d-9c9d-4793f066cb7f" CreationDate="2020-06-18T15:08:26.887" UserId="5726" Comment="added 116 characters in body" Text="witchcraft&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Red hair was a sign of witchcraft in Christian Europe and it was said that it was often seen as a marker of guilt in the eyes of witch finders.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many examples of redheads being stereotyped as untrustworthy in medieval times. The &quot;Proverbs of Alfred&quot; **warn not to choose a red-haired person as a friend** and the &quot;Secretum Secretorum&quot; **warns against using redheads as advisors.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kemble notes that similar warnings against short,  &#xD;&#xA;tall, and red men occur in German and medieval Latin. He observes 'The faithlessness of red-haired men is known to have been a widely  &#xD;&#xA;prevailing belief, and to have passed into the proverbs of many European  &#xD;&#xA;countries : Judas, ' in the painted cloth,' has red hair, allusions to  &#xD;&#xA;which in the works of all our old dramatic writers are far too numerous  &#xD;&#xA;to require specific reference.' There is, however, only one such reference  &#xD;&#xA;in Shakespeare; in As You Like It, iii. 4. 9. See D. ii. 264, 265. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;' Never choose for companion a little man, a tall man, or a] red &#xD;&#xA;man.'&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; ' The red man, he is a devil ; for he will advise thee (to) thine ill.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The proverbs of Alfred][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## being a minority ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The author Ruth Mellinkoff, in her excellent book, &quot;[Outcasts][2],&quot; commented upon this prejudice, believing it to be a product of red hair's minority status in society.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Red hair, a red beard, and ruddy skin - separately or combined - have been considered suspect, impure, and dangerous because they did not meet the standards of the normal. That is essential to keep in mind is that they are minority features in all racial and ethnic groups, *even among the Irish*, who are widely thought to have more redheads.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She also relates an early example of Christian condemnation of red hair, quoting from a letter from [St. Jerome][3] which gave advice on raising daughters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Do not dye her hair red and thereby presage for her the fires of hell.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[letters from Jerome][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## special ingredients ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The medieval mind also attributed magical properties to the bodily fluids of redheads. For example, it was believed that the fat from a red-haired man could be used to make poison. Likewise, [Theophilus Presbyter][5] stated that the blood of a red-haired man was needed to turn copper into gold. The urine from red-haired boys was also used to make the paint for stained glass windows.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Theophili, de diversis P267][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://archive.org/stream/proverbsalfred00skeagoog/proverbsalfred00skeagoog_djvu.txt&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.nl/books/about/Outcasts_Text.html?id=01LUWw4A7CgC&amp;redir_esc=y&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerome&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3001107.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophilus_Presbyter&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://books.google.nl/books?id=wo4EAAAAYAAJ&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;q=blood&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21601" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6428" RevisionGUID="54b3675c-e220-4d61-87a3-22425c982820" CreationDate="2020-06-19T05:38:32.637" UserId="6161" Text="Yes, quite a few in fact. A bit too many to sum up in this post, but I'll list some notable examples. Firstly, it must be acknowledged that comparative mythology delves into common human experience, emotion, and psychology. [Joseph Campbell][1] stated, &quot;myths are public dreams, dreams are private myths.&quot; Comparative mythology draws on similarities of the human conscious and subconscious being and displays them symbolically though cultural narratives; since the human psyche mostly functions in similar ways across the globe, civilizations without contact often developed similar narratives.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You mentioned the universal flood myth, probably originating from receding glacial ice sheets in the Late Quaternary and the subsequent [Black Sea deluge][2]. During this relatively rapid event, ancestral cultures of many Eurasian civilizations, the Indo-Europeans, experienced this cataclysmic flood which eradicated many of their coastal villages. The plethora of factions heralding from Indo-European linguistic roots went on to tell stories of this great flood, influencing centuries of Eurasian generations to come. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, your question specifically asked for disparate cultures' similar myths, for an influential historical event such as the Black Sea flood can permeate so many religions, it may be hard to pinpoint a source.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As aforementioned, Campbell's ideas of comparative mythology deal with common human psychology and narrative development, and many separate cultures brewed strikingly similar tales.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here are a few examples:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Certainly, the flood stories of the Indo-Europeans did not reach the ears pre-Columbian Mesoamerican civilizations. Their [flood myths][3] evolved separately from Eurasia, but hold similar significance nonetheless.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not only did Khnum and Prometheus mold humanity from clay in Egytian and Greek mythology, the [Chinese mother goddess][5] did so as well. I doubt transcontinental contact had been established in the Bronze Age, but this one I'm not entirely sure about. This goes for all other examples, but correct me if two myths might be related through cultural contact.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dragons and reptilian monsters are [fairly ubiquitous][6], with both feared Western dragons of Europe and venerable Eastern dragons of Asia developing with independent symbolism. Many other cultures had semi-dragon-like beings in their mythologies, such as the Rainbow Serpent of the Aborigines, the mo'o of the Hawaiians, Kukulkan of the Maya, and Kirimu of the Nyanga.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][7]][7]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Giants are a staple of world mythology something about the towering might of long-lost lumbering ancestors, from the Greek giants and titans and Nephilim of Abrahamic faiths, to the  Quinametzin of the Aztecs. (Side note: another motif is the &quot;four pillars of the sky,&quot; wherein four giants, or dwarves, uphold the four corners of the earth; this can be found in Aztec, Norse, and other Eurasian myths)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are numerous other myths, and I will link a few here, including [Chaoskampf][8], [Axis Mundi][9], the destruction of a primordial to create earth (see [Ymir][10]), the typical concept of [good vs. evil][11] popularized in the West by [Zoroastrianism][12],  the [universal creation of land and life out of chaos and nothingness][13], and [Apocatastasis][14] (also prominent in Mesoamerican myths).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][15]][15]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you can tell, I tried to focus on myths separated by geographical impediments (Indo-Europeans influenced cultures from Scandinavia to India, so most popular mythologies share similar roots, and I tried to steer clear of relating those according to the question's stipulations), and despite those, many myths seem ubiquitous. This fascinating subject of [comparative mythology][16] is explored wonderfully by Joseph Campbell's work, and I highly recommend looking into his research for [further studies][17].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks for reading. Have a wonderful day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Campbell&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_flood_myths&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/eq8oA.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%BCwa&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon#Sources_of_inspiration_for_dragon_myths&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/VcAYy.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_(cosmogony)#Chaoskampf&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_mundi&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ymir&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_and_evil#Religion&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_myth#Creation_from_chaos&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocatastasis&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/8STXV.png&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://mythcrafts.com/2016/11/21/joseph-campbells-framework-for-comparative-mythology/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21602" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6423" RevisionGUID="18bc1796-1c66-433d-b427-b406f5d954cf" CreationDate="2020-06-20T02:20:27.217" UserId="399" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="In the book Odyssey, it's said that ambrosia was carried to Olympus by doves [1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Here not even a bird may pass, no, not even **the timid doves that bring ambrosia  to  Father  Jove**,  but  the  sheer  rock  always  carries  off one of them, and Father Jove has to send another to make up their number&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, Demeter was considered the goddess of crops and agriculture, being intrinsically linked to food.&#xD;&#xA;The Roman goddess counterpart is Ceres. [2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ceraon, Deipneo and Matton are greek semi-gods related to food. More specifically the bread preparation stages.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To Romans, Abundantia was the personification of abundance, carring the Cornucopia - presented as a large horn-shaped container overflowing with produce, flowers, or nuts [3][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;*References*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1] HOMER. The Odyssey. 1:Translated by Samuel Butler. p. 202.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[2] FINLEY, M. I.. The World of Odysseus. 4. ed. New York: New Yorknyrb Classics, 2002.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[4] Apollodorus. The Library of Greek Mythology. 1. ed. Oxford University Press, 2008.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[4] PARKER, R. Polytheism and Society at Athens. OUP Oxford, 2005." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21603" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5903" RevisionGUID="67d9a3bb-669e-461e-a944-7b268ce442fa" CreationDate="2020-06-20T17:03:25.343" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="21604" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5662" RevisionGUID="b0ab1a78-4f03-4245-8346-2e72f8e21bf6" CreationDate="2020-06-20T18:03:20.230" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="21605" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="6413" RevisionGUID="13f52155-1fc7-4cdb-bbe3-8058a87e9574" CreationDate="2020-06-21T05:43:59.970" UserId="7011" Comment="102" />
  <row Id="21606" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6429" RevisionGUID="85890ac7-c01c-43d3-9ea2-32a90e914d89" CreationDate="2020-06-21T18:41:25.243" UserId="6920" Text="A grandson.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since his purpose was to get him to sleep with his daughter, he must have deduced that the resulting son would be something special, and special enough to risk angering Aegeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At least, on the face of it.  There are no myths that go into what he was thinking." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21608" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="6413" RevisionGUID="2d975616-04ae-4c6d-84e6-5e032632d43c" CreationDate="2020-06-23T06:32:32.010" UserId="7011" Comment="102" />
  <row Id="21609" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6431" RevisionGUID="7dba5ceb-c31a-4a1e-9417-3da47332d54e" CreationDate="2020-06-23T07:42:06.637" UserId="7013" Text="I am writing a poem set in ancient Rome and am seeking stories that regard the birth (or process of birthing) nymphs to allude to. I certainly well considered that nymphs are more represented as &quot;metaphors&quot; of &quot;Earthly&quot; lands and forms, but are there any Roman myths that consider the physical birth of (or birthed) nymphs? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I could not find too much on the subject and what I did discover was not quite clear in a distinct context (I did unveil &quot;Hesperides&quot; and her mother &quot;Styx&quot; but I need something distinguished in Roman mythology, rather than Greek mythology and besides, I cannot seem to find a Roman equivalent of the Goddess &quot;Styx&quot;, rather only the Infernal river.) And thus, I thought I would give it a try on this most virtuous forum.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21610" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6431" RevisionGUID="7dba5ceb-c31a-4a1e-9417-3da47332d54e" CreationDate="2020-06-23T07:42:06.637" UserId="7013" Text="How were Nymphs born in Roman Mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21611" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6431" RevisionGUID="7dba5ceb-c31a-4a1e-9417-3da47332d54e" CreationDate="2020-06-23T07:42:06.637" UserId="7013" Text="|roman|nymphs|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21613" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6433" RevisionGUID="370e2563-611d-499d-b752-c0fca17b1d67" CreationDate="2020-06-23T12:53:52.500" UserId="5511" Text="Nymph, as the word νύμφη (nymphe) indicates, are originally from Greek mythology, not Roman. It's a word that encompasses some very different entities of varying levels of god-likeness, so there is no &quot;one fits all&quot; answer to your question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we focus on the type of entities that modern Westerners usually associate with nymphs, that is, manifested powers of nature in antropomorphic (female) form, then the question would not even make sense to an Ancient Greek or Roman: it would be the same as asking &quot;how is nature born?&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In some cases, however, there are traditionally-agreed-upon parents for certain nymphs. In the case of the Hesperides (“nymphs of the evening”), for example, the parents are most often identified as the goddess Nyx (not Styx as posted in your question, that lineage is encountered less frequent). If a father is involved it is mostly either Atlas or Zeus. The Roman equivalent for the goddess Nyx is Nox." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21614" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6434" RevisionGUID="95984317-f9da-472d-a347-2469bae1396a" CreationDate="2020-06-23T19:17:11.883" UserId="7011" Text="This is a follow-up to the accepted answer, which I think provides a good account for Pittheus' motivation, as backed up by the entry for Pittheus in _The Oxford Classical Dictionary_ (4th edn): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Pittheus] got [Aegeus] drunk and put him to bed with his daughter Aethra, thus becoming the grandfather of Theseus and creating a family tie between his own small state and the powerful city over the water.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How much Pittheus betrayed his ally Aegeus depends on the precise wording of the Delphic prophesy. If, as portrayed in Euripedes' _Medea_, the prophesy was such that Aegeus' engaging in sexual intercourse before returning home to Athens would result only in his continued childlessness (which would be consistent with [Poseidon being Theseus' true father][1]), then Pittheus' betrayal was bad enough. But if the prophesy was _'Do not loosen the bulging mouth of the wineskin until you have reached the height of Athens, lest you die of grief'_, then Pittheus' betrayal was complete.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/37/who-was-the-father-of-theseus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21615" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6426" RevisionGUID="d182b4b5-2844-474c-bc5e-6a61f4faa3a5" CreationDate="2020-06-24T10:43:06.647" UserId="7022" Comment="added 9 characters in body" Text="Lots of cultures have varying myths about vampires. Do any of these myths mention a cure that could turn someone back into a (living) human after they were infected?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21616" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3438" RevisionGUID="ad0567bb-9cdf-42f1-8f87-0aa719366c2a" CreationDate="2020-06-24T16:03:30.400" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="21617" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6435" RevisionGUID="077ffedb-a887-4aa8-9a36-c6376c9391a2" CreationDate="2020-06-24T19:50:00.963" UserId="7036" Text="There are actually a lot of amputees in mythology. Aztec trickster god Tezcatlipoca has one foot, as does his Mayan counterpart Hurakan. There is a whole chapter about one-footed and other “crippled” sages in the Daoist sacred text the Zhuangzi. There are two one handed deities I can think of offhand (no pun intended!), Nuada of the Silver Hand (his prosthetic) of the Celts, and Tyr of the Norse. In European alchemical imagery, the god Saturn is depicted with a peg-leg (Saturn often has a disfigured leg in various world mythologies, perhaps to explain why the planet appears to move so slowly in the sky). There are the Sciapods (aka Monopods), in European lore - a race of humanoids with one leg with a very large foot which they often use as umbrellas while lying on their backs (possibly related to psychedelic mushrooms). The Amazon warriors are said to amputate one breast so as to better wield a bow (which makes no sense, but that’s the lore). These are the main ones, there are a bunch more (notably, from what I’ve discovered, in Meso-America, Ireland, India, and China), some pretty obscure. I’m an above knee amputee and mythology buff, this is an area I’ve actually done a fair amount of research into. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a book by scholar Carlo Ginzburg,&#xD;&#xA;Ecstasies: Deciphering the Witches' Sabbath, that has a fantastic chapter on amputees in mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21618" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6436" RevisionGUID="55e3cdfd-a4c5-4f61-a50c-3d238ba42809" CreationDate="2020-06-25T08:31:41.673" UserId="7037" Text="Most cultures believed that vampires were humans that were raised from the dead or demons, so they didn't look into cures so much as killing them or preventing them from coming back from the dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's unclear whether these were cures, but the closest I have come across were:&#xD;&#xA;Exorcisms (but if they believed they were demons, this would more than likely just destroy it rather than make it human)&#xD;&#xA;Or in [I believe] Romania where a vampire would be dismembered, burned, and fed to the family members to 'cure?' them. Though this could have also been preventative. I hope this helps. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately because myths of vampires vary so widely among cultures and they are so old, it's difficult to find all of the myths surrounding them. Modern interpretations are where you will find most references to cures, but it doesn't seem like that is what you are looking for. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21619" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6435" RevisionGUID="4cd84985-65f3-4f65-a4a4-c655f4533ee1" CreationDate="2020-06-25T18:38:40.450" UserId="5726" Comment="added OP comment to answer and improved readability " Text="There are actually a lot of amputees in mythology. Aztec trickster god Tezcatlipoca has one foot, as does his Mayan counterpart Hurakan. There is a whole chapter about one-footed and other “crippled” sages in the Daoist sacred text the Zhuangzi. There are two one handed deities I can think of offhand (no pun intended!), Nuada of the Silver Hand (his prosthetic) of the Celts, and Tyr of the Norse. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In European alchemical imagery, the god Saturn is depicted with a peg-leg (Saturn often has a disfigured leg in various world mythologies, perhaps to explain why the planet appears to move so slowly in the sky). There are the Sciapods (aka Monopods), in European lore - a race of humanoids with one leg with a very large foot which they often use as umbrellas while lying on their backs (possibly related to psychedelic mushrooms). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Amazon warriors are said to amputate one breast so as to better wield a bow (which makes no sense, but that’s the lore). These are the main ones, there are a bunch more (notably, from what I’ve discovered, in Meso-America, Ireland, India, and China), some pretty obscure. I’m an above knee amputee and mythology buff, this is an area I’ve actually done a fair amount of research into. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a book by scholar Carlo Ginzburg,&#xD;&#xA;Ecstasies: Deciphering the Witches' Sabbath, that has a fantastic chapter on amputees in mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Oh, and don’t forget The Fisher King (aka Grail King) of Arthurian lore, who has a wound in his thigh that won’t heal. There’s a leg-amputee link in some versions." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21621" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6326" RevisionGUID="69daabc6-0503-4a74-86e9-90fbc95ad1f9" CreationDate="2020-06-26T14:59:44.463" UserId="6871" Comment="rm irrelevant" Text="This is the front and back of a t-shirt that was bought in Colombia. Stylistically to my naive layman eyes, they both look consistent with a modern riff on Muisca or Tairona art. Are they identifiable entities in known pre-Columbian mythology? Or are they tourist trap nonsense? (even so, one would think it might have been easier to copy a pre-existing image):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Front][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Back][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/yNdMX.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/YRKnb.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21627" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6439" RevisionGUID="e86f2a95-fea8-4269-a570-73453a83a25e" CreationDate="2020-06-29T02:28:23.373" UserId="3302" Text="Like I noticed musicians tend to be more common in certain months according to [this](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Lists_of_musicians_by_birthday) link.&#xD;&#xA;In addition ADHD tends to be more common in the [August](https://www.medpagetoday.com/neurology/adhd-add/76569#:~:text=1%20birthdate%20cutoff%20for%20kindergarten,in%20the%20New%20England%20Journal) month.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any general trends according to months?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21628" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6439" RevisionGUID="e86f2a95-fea8-4269-a570-73453a83a25e" CreationDate="2020-06-29T02:28:23.373" UserId="3302" Text="Is there any basis for any month being smarter then others?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21629" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6439" RevisionGUID="e86f2a95-fea8-4269-a570-73453a83a25e" CreationDate="2020-06-29T02:28:23.373" UserId="3302" Text="|astrology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21630" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6440" RevisionGUID="518526ff-4e11-423f-8b8b-b878f01ee9a7" CreationDate="2020-06-29T13:58:00.107" UserId="7049" Text="I am wondering whether there is a classical source for this version of what happens when Theseus abandons Ariadne at Naxos: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Theseus and Ariadne fall asleep on the island, but Dionysos shows himself to Theseus (in flesh or in a dream) and tells him that Ariadne is condemned, because she assisted in the murder of her brother, the Minotaur. The only way she can be saved is by marrying him, Dionysos, thus becoming immortal. But Theseus will have to abandon her for that to happen. Theseus leaves the sleeping Ariadne and deports with the ship. She awakes, thinks she has been left alone, encounters Dionysos, and accepts his hand in marrige.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This was the way the story was told in a children's book I read when I was 9. I have reread them and the author is very dependable and does not roam too far from the classical sources, but I cannot find this particular explanation anywhere else. In the old texts, the explanations seem to be either that he abandoned her because he wanted to marry someone else, that Dionysos appeared to him in a dream and told him to leave her alone, or that Dionysos killed her because she was condemned by the gods. The particular line of reasoning - that the god had to marry her in order to save her from death and condemnation - is not something I have been able to find. Does that mean the author of the children's book made this up, or are there other sources I should be aware of that tells the story in a similar way?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you in advance. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21631" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6440" RevisionGUID="518526ff-4e11-423f-8b8b-b878f01ee9a7" CreationDate="2020-06-29T13:58:00.107" UserId="7049" Text="Dionysos saving Ariadne by marrying her - source?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21632" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6440" RevisionGUID="518526ff-4e11-423f-8b8b-b878f01ee9a7" CreationDate="2020-06-29T13:58:00.107" UserId="7049" Text="|dionysus|theseus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21633" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="6065" RevisionGUID="93a3db62-6ec9-4965-a89d-bd6d5e4c984b" CreationDate="2020-06-29T15:49:10.350" UserId="3315" Comment="tags edited" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21634" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="6065" RevisionGUID="93a3db62-6ec9-4965-a89d-bd6d5e4c984b" CreationDate="2020-06-29T15:49:10.350" Comment="Proposed by 3315 approved by 5726, 53 edit id of 1816" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21638" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="3019" RevisionGUID="73d3f926-d2d7-4855-8596-9a9e59ed44e3" CreationDate="2020-06-30T01:15:09.250" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="21639" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6441" RevisionGUID="9569935a-c2b4-46c7-b5c2-02bc003355ff" CreationDate="2020-06-30T04:06:52.890" UserId="7051" Text="In short, not that im aware of at this time. But, there are a lot of various creators in Greek myths that are similar, or usually depicted in a similar way.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichthyocentaurs&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cetus_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scylla&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Greek/ Roman myth had a lot of these, sort of. The old frescos and statues of mermaids usually had sea serpent tails, not the pretty fish tail we usually imagine. So I think the old myths of mermaids were something in between modern mermaid and cecaelia. They had long serpent tails that resemble tentacles, and occasionally would have multiple tails. There also were apparently 3000/infinite sea nymphs, and they often have all kinds of different forms: mermaid, human, or a mix of human and animal parts, or even sea monsters or forces of nature like a whirlpool, and can often change form too. So I would conclude that a cecaelia could probably fall under the category of sea nymph, as one of any infinite forms they could take. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21640" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6442" RevisionGUID="23612ab9-675d-46ca-ae05-0635c21a9cfa" CreationDate="2020-06-30T09:43:46.430" UserId="5511" Text="There are two textual sources for this, there is no mention for Dionysos' motivation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pausanias, Description of Greece, Chapter 20:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The oldest sanctuary of Dionysus is near the theater. Within the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; precincts are two temples and two statues of Dionysus, the Eleuthereus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; （Deliverer） and the one Alcamenes made of ivory and gold. There are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; paintings here—Dionysus bringing Hephaestus up to heaven. One of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greek legends is that Hephaestus, when he was born, was thrown down by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hera. In revenge he sent as a gift a golden chair with invisible&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fetters. When Hera sat down she was held fast, and Hephaestus refused&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to listen to any other of the gods save Dionysus—in him he reposed the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fullest trust—and after making him drunk Dionysus brought him to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; heaven. Besides this picture there are also represented Pentheus and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lycurgus paying the penalty of their insolence to Dionysus, **Ariadne&#xD;&#xA;&gt; asleep, Theseus putting out to sea, and Dionysus on his arrival to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; carry off Ariadne.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pausanias, Description of Greece, Chapter 29:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Ariadne was taken away from Theseus by Dionysus**, who sailed against&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him with superior forces, and either fell in with Ariadne by chance or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; else set an ambush to catch her. This Dionysus was, in my opinion,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; none other than he who was the first to invade India, and the first to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bridge the river Euphrates. Zeugma （Bridge） was the name given to that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; part of the country where the Euphrates was bridged, and at the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; present day the cable is still preserved with which he spanned the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; river; it is plaited with branches of the vine and ivy.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21641" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6443" RevisionGUID="9dd12656-5225-4739-9dff-9693d0ab82ba" CreationDate="2020-06-30T16:18:24.433" UserId="7052" Text="It's a date-stamp that indicates which Akitu festival the seal is commemorating. Akitu was a barley festival, andwas celebrated twice per year (sowing and reaping.) The Akitu festival marked the beginning of each half-year of the Sumerian Calendar. Here's another seal depicting the other Akitu festival. Note that it shows the constellation Cancer - a half year later than the alignment shown in the first seal. http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a178/belmarduk/sargoncoronation.jpg&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21642" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6444" RevisionGUID="6576c9b0-b5b0-4a26-8718-4e6958684f58" CreationDate="2020-07-01T07:20:11.210" UserId="5511" Text="Assigning attributes to human characteristics based on their birth-month is virtually the same thing as by astrological sign, the difference in grouping is on average nine days. Astrology has not demonstrated its effectiveness in controlled studies and has no scientific validity, and is thus regarded as pseudoscience. Months are in fact more irregular as a distinction than star signs (month durations vary from 28-31 days).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Having worked in the music industry for 15 years, I can suggest a much more probable cause for the alledged Musician/December &quot;correlation&quot;: it only lists famous artists. The success rate for artists a label signs is a fraction of the total signings. This has almost nothing to do with the musical mastery of an artist, but largely with the Zeitgeist of when they release something. Arguably, many of the best artists never become famous because they are ahead of their time. It is only (much) later that their brilliance is recognized. You have the same pattern with painters. Van Gogh was only recognized as one of the most influential painters of all time long after his death. The difference with music is that this recognition doesn't automatically translate into posthumous record sales and thus fame.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The ADHD/August article states:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In states with a Sept. 1 birth date cutoff for kindergarten entry,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; children born in August -- the youngest in their class -- had a 34%&#xD;&#xA;&gt; higher risk of ADHD diagnosis and a 32% higher risk of ADHD treatment&#xD;&#xA;&gt; than children with September birthdays&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which means the age difference between an august born child and a september born child in the same class is 330 days. The month by itself has nothing to do with ADHD risk, it is the combination with the legally defined cutoff. If the cutoff date would be June 1st, then the findings would likely be shifted to children born on May." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21643" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="274" RevisionGUID="fefc6abc-f831-4d95-9018-459a991c1750" CreationDate="2020-07-01T09:48:59.137" UserId="53" Comment="Added image description" Text="Nope. Not even close (okay, a little bit).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to my [source][1], the symbol is actually a star (just one). It looks kinda confusing like a solar system or a Sun. To make a Sun, you must at least meet this regulation for this type of art:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The sun symbol always has either four arms plus wavy lines extending from a &quot;ball&quot; in the middle, or it is a ball with wavy lines.  VA 243 has no wavy lines.  It does not depict the sun.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact it is a star rather than our beloved Sun. As seen in the picture below, the picture you showed is a star as it has 6 - 8 points. This time it has 6 points. &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Caption: Below are examples of star symbols.  Stars could have 6, 7, or 8 pts in Sumero-Mesopotamian art (VA 243 has six):&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;![Star from the main image][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So your picture is a star, not a constellation. It represents a star in the sky, even the dots are part of the star.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]:http://www.michaelsheiser.com/va_243%20page.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/wDGoz.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21644" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6445" RevisionGUID="0618f012-6eea-4805-bcc8-5d00322a693c" CreationDate="2020-07-02T20:51:08.447" UserId="2892" Text="- [Sun WuKong][1] (aka The Monkey King)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This beloved mythological figure is famous for having golden eyes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eventually, through the teamwork of Taoist and Buddhist forces, including the efforts from some of the greatest deities, and then finally by the Bodhisattva of mercy, Guanyin, Sun Wukong is captured. After several failed attempts at execution, Sun Wukong is locked into Laozi's eight-way trigram Crucible to be distilled into an elixir (so that Laozi could regain his pills of longevity) by samadhi fires.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; After 49 days, however, when the cauldron is opened, the Monkey King jumps out, having survived by hiding in a corner marked by the wind trigram in which there was no fire. Additionally the heat from the samadhi fires reinforces the Monkey King's bodily frame, making him stronger than ever before, and impervious to damage. The heat also gives him a new ability; the Monkey King is now able to recognize evil with huǒyǎn-jīnjīng (火眼金睛) (lit. &quot;golden-gaze fiery-eyes&quot;). Sun Wukong proceeds to destroy the crucible and makes his way to Heaven's main chamber, to confront the Jade Emperor and his senior advisers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not specifically the answer you're looking for, but, Sun Wukong can also transform himself into many forms, and ostensibly hide and re-reveal his golden eyes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_King" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21645" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2904" RevisionGUID="a41ea887-e981-4ed8-abed-6106bec50efb" CreationDate="2020-07-04T23:06:20.740" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="21646" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6439" RevisionGUID="b30eb116-2603-4a37-bd46-b5dcd34c979d" CreationDate="2020-07-05T01:25:45.043" UserId="3302" Comment="added 26 characters in body" Text="Like I noticed musicians tend to be more common in certain months according to [this](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Lists_of_musicians_by_birthday) link.&#xD;&#xA;In addition ADHD tends to be more common in the [August](https://www.medpagetoday.com/neurology/adhd-add/76569#:~:text=1%20birthdate%20cutoff%20for%20kindergarten,in%20the%20New%20England%20Journal) month.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any general trends according to months?  This involves astrology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21647" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6439" RevisionGUID="2f75bac0-081e-45a4-8b25-8d1962a592dc" CreationDate="2020-07-05T01:47:51.767" UserId="3302" Comment="added 415 characters in body" Text="Like I noticed musicians tend to be more common in certain months according to [this](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Lists_of_musicians_by_birthday) link.&#xD;&#xA;In addition ADHD tends to be more common in the [August](https://www.medpagetoday.com/neurology/adhd-add/76569#:~:text=1%20birthdate%20cutoff%20for%20kindergarten,in%20the%20New%20England%20Journal) month and summer birthdays tend to be [taller][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any general trends according to months?  This involves astrology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/10/13/how-your-birth-month-could-affect-your-health_n_8283896.html?guccounter=1&amp;guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&amp;guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAEHXMIa8RQI-zQ-4xu8JWy7R-NmBRnQ8ZVXHS2KHF95TmfFs8F49F-I_R8nxpBpPdTenXWjrEsE1avLoAFxN8g3iaptSWW73HLjO1p6EXVrWLduoxh6mGm90OT-pstOpYb5UikN3obzItlMBm_NAeIDFihuU5c4O_BpsiBHcqx4l" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21650" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6448" RevisionGUID="67e51a8e-ce3e-4a76-a6dc-68416f0d3bb3" CreationDate="2020-07-07T01:12:30.467" UserId="7067" Text="&#xD;&#xA;Annunaki= Anakim = Sons of Anak in the Old Testament&#xD;&#xA;The correlation is found in the timeline: the fact that Hebrews and Sumerians Co-existed. The Old Testament is documenting the times just like &#xD;&#xA;the epic of Gilgamesh, the legend of Atrahasis, the book of Jasher, the book of Job, other extra Biblical texts, the 7 tablets of creation and the books of Enoch.&#xD;&#xA;All coming from the same time period. 2200-1800 B.C. (pre flood times).&#xD;&#xA;They all (sumerian, assyrian, babylonian, hebrew, akkadians, etc) coexisted in trade, god worship, etc.&#xD;&#xA;Just look at the timeline.&#xD;&#xA;And it is easy to see that they are all referring to the same infamous nephilim." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21651" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6448" RevisionGUID="6cd836d4-9703-4820-adad-aee6b81f0dfc" CreationDate="2020-07-07T02:00:29.603" UserId="7067" Comment="added 11 characters in body" Text="&#xD;&#xA;Annunaki= Anakim = Sons of Anak in the Old Testament&#xD;&#xA;The correlation is found in the timeline: the fact that Hebrews and Sumerians Co-existed. The Old Testament is documenting the times just like &#xD;&#xA;the epic of Gilgamesh, the legend of Atrahasis, the book of Jasher, the book of Job, other extra Biblical texts, the 7 tablets of creation and the books of Enoch.&#xD;&#xA;All coming from the same time period. 2200-1800 B.C. (pre flood times).&#xD;&#xA;They all (sumerian, assyrian, babylonian, hebrew, egyptians, akkadians, etc) coexisted in trade, god worship, etc.&#xD;&#xA;Just look at the timeline.&#xD;&#xA;And it is easy to see that they are all referring to the same infamous nephilim." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21652" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6448" RevisionGUID="ad1a0d16-0af3-495e-9d9b-c070f340eda6" CreationDate="2020-07-07T02:18:46.527" UserId="7067" Comment="added 11 characters in body" Text="Beside the fact that there is no such thing as an annunaki until coined by Sitchin who had no idea what he was talking about. The word annunaki can't even be found in the original text. &#xD;&#xA;For the sake of this discussion....&#xD;&#xA;Annunaki= Anakim = Sons of Anak in the Old Testament&#xD;&#xA;The correlation is found in the timeline: the fact that Hebrews and Sumerians Co-existed. The Old Testament is documenting the times just like &#xD;&#xA;the epic of Gilgamesh, the legend of Atrahasis, the book of Jasher, the book of Job, other extra Biblical texts, the 7 tablets of creation and the books of Enoch.&#xD;&#xA;All coming from the same time period. 3000-1800 B.C. (pre flood times-1800B.B.C.). Note the epic of Gilgamesh refers to a time when Noah was 366 years old and During Egypts Second Dynasty.(234 years before the flood).&#xD;&#xA;They all (sumerian, assyrian, babylonian, hebrew, egyptians, akkadians, etc) coexisted in trade, war, god worship, etc.&#xD;&#xA;Just look at the timeline.&#xD;&#xA;And it is easy to see that they are all referring to the same infamous nephilim.&#xD;&#xA;Finally the vowels never determined the meaning of a word or a name but rather the consonants. anunnaki= Anak. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21653" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6449" RevisionGUID="cdc7e57c-2679-42e2-abbd-598946d872ec" CreationDate="2020-07-07T17:50:17.800" UserId="6739" Text="Does anyone know what the proper ancient egyptian name for the Hall of Truth, Hall of Two Truths, or Hall of Judgement is? This is the hall where a soul is weighed on a scale against the feather pf Maat. I've tried several google searches to no avail. Maat means truth, and the words wADyt and iwynt both mean a specific type of columned hall. The word wpt means judgement. I am just uncertain of the order they would go in, or which one is historically accurate. Any help would be greatly appreciated.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21654" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6449" RevisionGUID="cdc7e57c-2679-42e2-abbd-598946d872ec" CreationDate="2020-07-07T17:50:17.800" UserId="6739" Text="Hall of Two Truths: Ancient Egypt" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21655" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6449" RevisionGUID="cdc7e57c-2679-42e2-abbd-598946d872ec" CreationDate="2020-07-07T17:50:17.800" UserId="6739" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21656" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="6449" RevisionGUID="55e4ea4b-06a6-4ad8-84b2-7e095de6709e" CreationDate="2020-07-07T17:55:52.157" UserId="6739" Comment="edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21657" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="6227" RevisionGUID="30b4d92a-39e4-4849-9793-e29178e760ab" CreationDate="2020-07-07T18:03:05.817" UserId="6739" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|japanese|native-american|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21658" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6450" RevisionGUID="17e35411-99eb-466b-88f4-7e0645cb2bf6" CreationDate="2020-07-07T18:25:50.413" UserId="6739" Text="The place of suffering was found in Helheimr, and was called Náströnd, meaning &quot;corpse shore&quot;. This is where the impure dead, like adulterers, murderers and oath-breakers were sent. It was a cave full of snakes, with an ice-cold river of venom flowing through it. These dead were fed upon by the dragon, Nidhoggr or Nidhog, “the dastardly striking”, which would stop gnawing on the roots of Yggdrasil, to perform this feeding.&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Náströnd" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21662" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6449" RevisionGUID="e16db1fa-db7e-40a4-8568-5c87de6bab98" CreationDate="2020-07-08T04:35:44.720" UserId="6739" Comment="edited body" Text="Does anyone know what the proper ancient egyptian name for the Hall of Truth, Hall of Two Truths, or Hall of Judgement is? This is the hall where a soul is weighed on a scale against the feather of Maat. I've tried several google searches to no avail. Maat means truth, and the words wADyt and iwynt both mean a specific type of columned hall. The word wpt means judgement. I am just uncertain of the order they would go in, or which one is historically accurate. Any help would be greatly appreciated.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21663" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6452" RevisionGUID="e2ee1f75-95f6-46bb-b741-6feca46d4dd9" CreationDate="2020-07-08T13:07:00.133" UserId="5511" Text="It is &quot;Hall of Two Truths&quot;, or &quot;Dual Truth&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that this hall is also sometimes called &quot;Double Ma'at&quot;, inferring Isis and Nephtys.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/DC0v5.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21672" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="6407" RevisionGUID="fd06e1f0-ec1b-4192-bb3d-328ade0921de" CreationDate="2020-07-09T08:01:01.860" UserId="108" Comment="104" />
  <row Id="21673" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="6407" RevisionGUID="644538cd-19d2-42f3-92c1-40f09f1d3043" CreationDate="2020-07-09T08:01:07.960" UserId="108" Comment="104" />
  <row Id="21674" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="6407" RevisionGUID="9cfd23d8-aee3-4467-8af4-45050d58ccbd" CreationDate="2020-07-09T08:01:12.227" UserId="108" Comment="105" />
  <row Id="21675" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6454" RevisionGUID="2dd6cc3e-4a02-4dbc-b082-c92fa4ab0b48" CreationDate="2020-07-10T15:23:55.777" UserId="7076" Text="In Hindu mythology there are numerous reference about 14 worlds. And the Earth is considered one of them. The inhabitants of these worlds use to travel among them. Also all the species seems to know the presence of each other and acknowledge each others importance. However, there is a constant war between the Dev (demi-gods) and Asur (kind of demon, but not at all) , in which humans takes part too.&#xD;&#xA;A important point to note is, time run with different pace on all these worlds i.e. there is a concept of time dilation and there are numerous stories about it. This supports the fact that there is a high chance that all the worlds were on different planets and not on earth only. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21676" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6455" RevisionGUID="ca6d4c5b-dc14-4e47-b147-e2204c11b254" CreationDate="2020-07-10T15:52:04.640" UserId="7077" Text="On the subject of Orion, in the true translations it was never stated that Orion and Artemis fell in love, in the original translations they shared a mutual interest in archery, and in some they even were enemies- with Artemis asking Zeus to get rid of him, because he was chasing after her friends the pleiad nymphs. The entire love story between the pair came from newer translations, where the translators thought it would make a better story line. I think that it could have been implied that Artemis could be what our society calles a lesbian or something similar, as she did lead a group of huntresses who force-weared the company of men, and that can be interpreted in many different ways, but she also might be under what our society calles the acesexual, and/or aromantic spectrum(s), as Aphrodite the goddess of sex, love, romance and beauty holds no power over her along with Athena and Hestia, wich could imply that she has no desire for sex and/ or romance with another. Also she may have been represented differently, depending on where her myths were told, or the time they were told." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21677" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6455" RevisionGUID="07413434-c02a-4bdc-8325-e48ca5336853" CreationDate="2020-07-10T15:57:48.390" UserId="7077" Comment="deleted 9 characters in body" Text="On the subject of Orion, in the true translations it was never stated that Orion and Artemis fell in love, in the original translations they shared a mutual interest in archery, and in some they even were enemies- with Artemis asking Zeus to get rid of him, because he was chasing after her friends the pleiad nymphs. The entire love story between the pair came from newer translations, where the translators thought it would make a better story line. I think that it could have been implied that Artemis could be what our society calles a lesbian or bisexual, as she did lead a group of huntresses who force-weared the company of men, and that can be interpreted in many different ways, but she also might be under what our society calles the acesexual, and/or aromantic spectrum(s), as Aphrodite the goddess of sex, love, romance and beauty holds no power over her along with Athena and Hestia, wich could imply that she has no desire for sex and/ or romance with another. Also she may have been represented differently, depending on where her myths were told, or the time they were told." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21679" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6457" RevisionGUID="1c2b5bdf-f48c-4d80-8268-adc6a48dd40b" CreationDate="2020-07-10T21:32:59.210" UserId="7078" Text="I have a Thor’s hammer pendant that I bought years ago. I’m not sure what is written on it. A translation would be great! [![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/OKWBp.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21680" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6457" RevisionGUID="1c2b5bdf-f48c-4d80-8268-adc6a48dd40b" CreationDate="2020-07-10T21:32:59.210" UserId="7078" Text="Need translation for a Thor’s hammer pendant" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21681" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6457" RevisionGUID="1c2b5bdf-f48c-4d80-8268-adc6a48dd40b" CreationDate="2020-07-10T21:32:59.210" UserId="7078" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21682" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6458" RevisionGUID="5a37d7ca-864e-450e-b52b-c481a9fa27f3" CreationDate="2020-07-10T23:27:44.260" UserId="7070" Text="Just a note: I would have commented this, but I don't have high enough reputation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This page may have the answer you are looking for. The runes there look just like yours but simplified [Freya's Rune Converter][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If that page didn't help, here are some resources that you may be able to use:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Viking Runes Guide][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Meanings of Runes][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Viking Rune Meanings][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, here are my best guesses at what the runes are supposed to be:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mannaz [![Mannaz][5]][5]: meaning man, human, or self&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Peorth [![Peorth][6]][6]: meaning elder tree, feminine energy, sexuality.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This last one (in my opinion) could be either kaunaz [![Kaunaz][7]][7] or [![sowulo][8]][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://attfreya.com/?r=ets&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://sonsofvikings.com/blogs/history/viking-runes-guide-runic-alphabet-meanings-nordic-celtic-letters&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://norse-mythology.org/runes/the-meanings-of-the-runes/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://viking.style/viking-rune-meanings/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ITbUH.png&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/5qJSr.png&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/e0yOo.png&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ozT5J.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21684" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6459" RevisionGUID="14825811-b1dd-42b6-856e-70b1c311b821" CreationDate="2020-07-11T02:31:29.643" UserId="7080" Text="&quot;The tales are clearly part of the same tradition, yet, by placing the image of the sword god in conjunction with celestial deities at Yazilikaya, the Hittites retained an association that the Arthurian variant has lost: the tale of the Sword in the Stone had something to do with the stars.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Indeed. And since the frequent and nearby enemy of the Hittites, the &quot;Mittani&quot; (Medes? or Metayn: Bedouin for &quot;the 100 sons&quot;) are historically attested to be Vedic god worshipers and gave a sword to Amenhotep II which appears to be the sword found in Tut's sarcophagus, we might have an alternative theory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; Which is: Tut's sword is proven by testing to be of meteoric origin...or &quot;something to do with the stars.&quot; Vedic...later Hindu, tell the tale of the Blacksmith god Visnu(Vishnu) forging a &quot;celestial weapon&quot; for Shiva (TaiShub/King Sheba, the Hittite &quot;Storm God, married to Shauska/Istar...the Queen of Sheba). Curiously then, who would be the forger of that sword in Mittani history? Could it be King &quot;Arta-tama&quot; the father of &quot;Tushratta&quot; the sworn enemy of the Hittites? The timelines would match with Amenhotep II. The Mittani are said to have forged &quot;Natas&quot;/Black metal/Iron by the river Khabur.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; Curious also: I found a 1600s AD book in Italian, history book, that spells Amenhotep/(Greek Amenophis) as Ame Nu Phis. Reading the word the &quot;wrong direction&quot; would give us PhisNu...Vishnu...in Thai, his name is Phitsanu.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pulling a sword from a stone....forging it from a meteorite? In Thailand, in the city of Uttaradit (Uthar and Aditi?) they tell a tale of reforging a special sword that had been broken...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I believe the royal titulary hieroglyphs of Amenhotep III depict this sword being held aloft by the king...Ankh Keperu...Ankh/Ex Khabur/Calibur?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21685" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6460" RevisionGUID="d0fc9d83-1119-4424-8a36-d8055bad31be" CreationDate="2020-07-11T15:42:33.257" UserId="3530" Text="To add to Codosaur's useful answer re the Egyptian words often written in English as Maat/Maaty, with apologies if you already know some of this. I have taken courses both in Hieroglyphics and Ancient Egyptian religion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Maat does as you say mean 'truth' but to the Ancient Egyptians it was a wider concept. Depending on context it can also be translated 'order', 'justice' or occasionally 'harmony'. To us these words all represent different concepts but to the Egyptians they were one concept, of things being how they ought to be. It was an important word in their culture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While in modern English we have only singular and plural forms of words, in Egyptian not all but some words have singular, dual and plural forms, in which the dual is used when there are two of something, so the plural means three or more. This is particularly found in words for things that that tend to come in pairs either in nature e.g. eyes (iry) or in Egyptian culture e.g. lands, as one of their names for their country being 'the two lands' (tawy), which depending what book you read refers either to Upper and Lower Egypt (the Nile Valley and the Nile Delta) or the lands to the east and west of the Nile.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Maat in this case appears in its dual form 'maaty', meaning it refers to two Maats. Tomb illustrations show what these were. The deceased's 'akh spirit' (soul) is shown appearing before a court of gods and demigods presided over by Osiris, god of the dead. Here the deceased's heart is weighed (if it is too heavy that indicates it is weighed down by sins the deceased committed in life) and he is questioned as to whether he has acted virtuously in his life, whether he fed the hungry, let the thirsty drink, buried the dead, ferried the person who had no boat etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The court would then pronounce one of two 'maats', which although conventionally translated 'truths' I think in the context would be clearer to translate as 'verdicts'. Either the soul was judged worthy to enter the afterlife, or it was devoured by a monster that was half lion and half crocodile. In tomb paintings the monster is shown but generally portrayed as quite small and unscary looking, as the owner of the tomb wanted to believe that being eaten by the monster was not what was going to happen to him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, as you may or may not know, conventional modern pronunciations and transliterations of Egyptian words are not exactly how Egyptologists believe they were actually pronounced, for 2 reasons. First, subject to occasional exceptions for foreign names, the Egyptians only wrote the consonants, expecting the reader to know what the vowels would be. However, as we mostly don't know what the vowels would have been, to make it possible to pronounce the words there are various conventions that some characters can be read as vowels to make pronunciation easier. Also, Egyptian included characters representing sounds which we do not have in European alphabets, and it has become the convention to read some of these as though they represented a letter 'a'. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hence the Egyptian word we represent as 'maat' they wrote as containing the following 4 consonants, which would have had vowel sounds in between them that are not recorded:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;M - a glottal stop (form the lips and tongue into the shape to make a sound but don't actually make one, like the Cockney pronunciation of the 't' in 'water' - another sound made in the throat - T.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The two sounds in the middle for which we have no letters in our alphabet are each by convention treated as an 'a', hence Maat'." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21687" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6462" RevisionGUID="ce18ef41-cdec-40a4-9e18-0d95ff730793" CreationDate="2020-07-12T11:04:53.660" UserId="7081" Text="It would seem that Achilles being dipped in the River refers to an old Smithy tale of Quenching: dipping the red-hot iron/carbon meat, aka steel, in water or oil to harden it. It is known Achilles wore a suit (of apparently steel) armor. The &quot;weak spot&quot; would be where the smithy held the armor during the quenching process.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding &quot;Indo-European&quot; origins of metal-working, I would highly recommend this paper, found at academia-edu:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tvaṣṭr, Meluhha of Bhāratam Janam (Rigveda) is Tuisto, divine ancestor of Germanic peoples (Tacitus), legacy of Proto-Indo-Aryan superstrate &amp; Mitanni Treaty&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;This can be seen as a pilgrimage, a journey of Meluhha artisans/sea-faring merchants in Eurasia, during the Bronze Age, along the Maritime Tin Road from Hanoi, Vietnam to Haifa, Israel.&#xD;&#xA;This journey also explains why many Proto-Indo-Aryan words like those present in Mitanni Treaty occur on Indus Script Corpora which is a veritable catalogus catalogurm of metalwork by metalcasters in the tradition of Tvaṣṭr , Tuisto...Tvaṣtṛi is the Vulcan of the Hindu mythology. He had a son named Triśiras...Meluhha of the Indian sprachbund, is the spoken form of chandas, the prosody of Rigveda. Tvaṣṭr is the metal artificer par excellence, who forges the vajra (thunderbolt) weapon for Indra, a narrative celebrated in exquisite metaphors of Rigvedic chandas...&quot;King Shaushtatar (ruled c. 1430) extended the boundaries of Mitanni through the conquest of Alalakh, Nuzi, Assur, and Kizzuwatna. Egypt, under Tuthmosis III (1479-1425 BCE), defeated the Mitanni at Aleppo after a long period of contention over control of the region of Syria. Later Egyptian dynasties entered into pacts and treaties with Mitanni and the daughter of the Mitanni King Tushratta, the princess Taduhepa, was given in marriage to Amenhotep III (1391-1353 BCE) as part of a treaty which balanced power between the two nations.This treaty was put to the test during a power struggle in Washukanni between Tushratta and a relative of the previous king, Shuttarna, known as Artatama II.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am of the opinion that &quot;Tadukhepa&quot; is same name as the Russian &quot;Dudieva&quot; (&quot;khepa&quot; is pronounced Eva or Eve) and she is none other than &quot;Nefertiti.&quot; Further, King Shashtatar reminds strongly of Esua. Further, it seems clear chronology must be re-examined stringently: is this king not a Tartar? &quot;Scratch a Russian and underneath you'll find a Tartar.&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21688" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6463" RevisionGUID="14f0bcfe-0158-495a-8860-1949b2273450" CreationDate="2020-07-13T00:58:06.937" UserId="7085" Text="In modern recreations of the character (e.g. in the Marvel Universe), Sif is depicted as a [Warrior](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sif_(comics), usually of Justice*), generally associated with the aspect(s) of Justice. However, in the original mythology, Sif was known as the [Goddess of the Earth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sif).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This question](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/5065/norse-god-goddess-of-law-or-justice) covers that thee were actually 2 other gods/goddesses of Law and Justice already, so the idea that Sif should take on that aspect is a stretch.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there anything in the mythology that makes this connection between Sif and any Warrior archetypes?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;*The wiki does not state this, but her character is always the &quot;voice of reason&quot; among the other Norse Warriors in the comics/movies)&lt;/sup&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21689" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6463" RevisionGUID="14f0bcfe-0158-495a-8860-1949b2273450" CreationDate="2020-07-13T00:58:06.937" UserId="7085" Text="Did Sif (the Norse Goddess) ever become a Warrior in mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21690" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6463" RevisionGUID="14f0bcfe-0158-495a-8860-1949b2273450" CreationDate="2020-07-13T00:58:06.937" UserId="7085" Text="|norse|goddesses|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21691" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6464" RevisionGUID="60d899af-d632-43c0-9bc8-08553e4e1afb" CreationDate="2020-07-13T20:13:37.770" UserId="742" Text="Are there any examples in mythologies of gods or people  boasting about their ability to engage in multiple acts of sex (multi-orgasmic) in succession? I am looking for examples in which they specify a number (as exaggerated as it may be)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21692" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6464" RevisionGUID="60d899af-d632-43c0-9bc8-08553e4e1afb" CreationDate="2020-07-13T20:13:37.770" UserId="742" Text="Are there any examples of gods or people boasting of their ability to engage in multiple acts of sex in succession?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21693" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6464" RevisionGUID="60d899af-d632-43c0-9bc8-08553e4e1afb" CreationDate="2020-07-13T20:13:37.770" UserId="742" Text="|comparative|symbolism|concepts|nymphs|sex-magic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21695" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6466" RevisionGUID="3a350651-e8c8-49d6-9839-0d970bd4a05b" CreationDate="2020-07-14T15:43:50.533" UserId="5229" Text="Heracles is said to have had intercourse with the 50 daughters of [Thespius](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thespius) or Thestius in one night, all of whom bore him sons (Diodorus Siculus, [Library 4.29.3](https://archive.org/details/L303DiodorusSiculusLibraryOfHistoryII2.354.58/page/n447/mode/2up)) In another version, one daughter refused, making the number 49 (Pausanius, [Description of Greece 9.27.6](http://data.perseus.org/citations/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0525.tlg001.perseus-eng1:9.27.6)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, in some less impressive versions, this took place over a week (Herodorus apud Athenaeus, [Deipnosophists 13.4](https://archive.org/details/deipnosophistsor03atheuoft/page/891/mode/1up)) or 50 nights (Pseudo-Apollodorus, [Library 2.4.10](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0548.tlg001.perseus-eng1:2.4.10); Tzetzes, [Chiliades 2.221](https://www.theoi.com/Text/TzetzesChiliades2.html))." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21696" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6463" RevisionGUID="398c8e07-898b-462d-8467-1f6fdae2b5fb" CreationDate="2020-07-14T17:45:46.873" UserId="5726" Comment="fixed link and fixed some capital letters" Text="In modern recreations of the character (e.g. in the Marvel Universe), Sif is depicted as a [Warrior](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sif_(comics)), usually of Justice*), generally associated with the aspect(s) of Justice. However, in the original mythology, Sif was known as the [Goddess of the Earth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sif).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This question](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/5065/norse-god-goddess-of-law-or-justice) covers that thee were actually 2 other gods/goddesses of law and justice already, so the idea that Sif should take on that aspect is a stretch.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there anything in the mythology that makes this connection between Sif and any Warrior archetypes?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;*The Wiki does not state this, but her character is always the &quot;voice of reason&quot; among the other Norse warriors in the comics/movies)&lt;/sup&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21697" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6464" RevisionGUID="3d870235-8b76-4c1f-b055-f78c938e7f64" CreationDate="2020-07-14T19:35:38.140" UserId="742" Comment="added 275 characters in body" Text="Are there any examples in mythologies of gods or people  boasting about their ability to engage in multiple acts of sex (multi-orgasmic) in succession? I am looking for examples in which they specify a number (as exaggerated as it may be).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*EDIT*: I should have specified that I am looking for examples in which the multiple acts are done with the same people, not with new partners. I am trying to exclude possible examples of the [Coolidge Effect][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coolidge_effect" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21698" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6460" RevisionGUID="dbfcee3f-0397-44d9-9b8f-ceab71df922a" CreationDate="2020-07-14T19:49:21.263" UserId="3530" Comment="Typographical corrections, set out spelling of Maat more clearly " Text="To add to Codosaur's useful answer re the Egyptian words often written in English as Maat/Maaty, with apologies if you already know some of this. I have taken courses both in Hieroglyphics and Ancient Egyptian religion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Maat does as you say mean 'truth' but to the Ancient Egyptians it was a wider concept. Depending on context it can also be translated 'order', 'justice' or occasionally 'harmony'. To us these words all represent different concepts but to the Egyptians they were one concept, of things being how they ought to be. It was an important word in their culture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While in modern English we have only singular and plural forms of words, in Egyptian not all but some words have singular, dual and plural forms, in which the dual is used when there are two of something, so the plural means three or more. This is particularly found in words for things that that tend to come in pairs either in nature e.g. eyes (irwy) or in Egyptian culture e.g. lands, as one of their names for their country was 'the two lands' (tawy), which depending what book you read refers either to Upper and Lower Egypt (the Nile Valley and the Nile Delta) or the lands to the east and west of the Nile.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Maat in this case appears in its dual form 'maaty', meaning it refers to two Maats. Tomb illustrations show what these were. The deceased's 'akh spirit' (soul) is shown appearing before a court of gods and demigods presided over by Osiris, god of the dead. Here the deceased's heart is weighed (if it is too heavy that indicates it is weighed down by sins the deceased committed in life) and he is questioned as to whether he has acted virtuously in his life, whether he fed the hungry, let the thirsty drink, buried the dead, ferried the person who had no boat etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The court would then pronounce one of two 'maats', which although conventionally translated 'truths' I think in the context would be clearer to translate as 'verdicts'. Either the soul was judged worthy to enter the afterlife, or it was devoured by a monster that was half lion and half crocodile. In tomb paintings the monster is shown but generally portrayed as quite small and unscary looking, as the owner of the tomb wanted to believe that being eaten by the monster was not what was going to happen to him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, as you may or may not know, conventional modern pronunciations and transliterations of Egyptian words are not exactly how Egyptologists believe they were actually pronounced, for 2 reasons. First, subject to occasional exceptions for foreign names, the Egyptians only wrote the consonants, expecting the reader to know what the vowels would be. However, as we mostly don't know what the vowels would have been, to make it possible to pronounce the words there are various conventions that some characters can be read as vowels to make pronunciation easier. Also, Egyptian included characters representing sounds which we do not have in European alphabets, and it has become the convention to read some of these as though they represented a letter 'a'. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hence the Egyptian word we represent as 'maat' they wrote as containing the following 4 consonants, which would have had vowel sounds in between them that are not recorded:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-M&#xD;&#xA;- a glottal stop (form the lips and tongue into the shape to make a sound but don't actually make one, like the Cockney pronunciation of the 't' in 'water')&#xD;&#xA;- a different sound made in the throat &#xD;&#xA;- T.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The two sounds in the middle for which we have no letters in our alphabet are each by convention treated as an 'a', hence Maat'." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21699" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6467" RevisionGUID="495b24a9-00dc-40b8-bb12-029a446e7ba4" CreationDate="2020-07-14T20:41:34.593" UserId="5726" Text="*wip*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do know that as good as everything we know of Norse mythology comes from writers after the Christianization of Scandinavia so I can't write about any older myths (this might be my shortcoming since there are definitely users on this site with a much greater knowledge on this subject than myself).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The only connection Sif would have to warrior culture would be her marriage to the storm god Thor.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a Dictionary of Northern Mythology the author noted that Sif's name was &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “relation by marriage” and Sif’s association with the vegetation on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the surface of the Earth, which is suggested by the nature of her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hair, is also corroborated by the fact that a species of moss&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Polytrichum aureum) was called haddr Sifjar (“Sif’s hair”) in Old&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Norse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Dictionary of Northern Mythology Rudolf Simek&#xD;&#xA;D.S. Brewer, 1996][1]&lt;/sub&gt; &lt;sub&gt; quote taken from [Norse Mythology for Smart People: Sif][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; *personal opinion:*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*I think Sif's warrior like looks and behaviour in the movies is ofcourse greatly exaggerated in the name of entertainment. And rightly so since I enjoyed the extra take of her being a beautiful strong weapon wielding woman. But as most cinematic versions of any mythology or history they are mostly incorrect and use some &quot;artistic liberties&quot; to make the plot more available and titillating to a broader audience.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.nl/books/about/Dictionary_of_Northern_Mythology.html?id=MZ24QgAACAAJ&amp;redir_esc=y&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://norse-mythology.org/sif/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21700" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6467" RevisionGUID="b6fbb06f-7af3-4897-aa1e-5b7cfa8eb1d2" CreationDate="2020-07-14T22:03:54.423" UserId="5726" Comment="forgot a quote (oops)" Text="*wip*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do know that as good as everything we know of Norse mythology comes from writers after the Christianization of Scandinavia so I can't write about any older myths (this might be my shortcoming since there are definitely users on this site with a much greater knowledge on this subject than myself).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The only connection Sif would have to warrior culture would be her marriage to the storm god Thor.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a Dictionary of Northern Mythology the author noted that Sif's name was &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Her name seems to mean “relation by marriage,” so even here we find nothing of &#xD;&#xA; a personality or function – just a familial association. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sif’s association with &#xD;&#xA; the vegetation on the surface of the Earth, which is suggested by the nature of her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hair, is also corroborated by the fact that a species of moss&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Polytrichum aureum) was called haddr Sifjar (“Sif’s hair”) in Old&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Norse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Dictionary of Northern Mythology Rudolf Simek&#xD;&#xA;D.S. Brewer, 1996][1]&lt;/sub&gt; &lt;sub&gt; quote taken from [Norse Mythology for Smart People: Sif][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; *personal opinion:*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*I think Sif's warrior like looks and behaviour in the movies is ofcourse greatly exaggerated in the name of entertainment. And rightly so since I enjoyed the extra take of her being a beautiful strong weapon wielding woman. But as most cinematic versions of any mythology or history they are mostly incorrect and use some &quot;artistic liberties&quot; to make the plot more available and titillating to a broader audience.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.nl/books/about/Dictionary_of_Northern_Mythology.html?id=MZ24QgAACAAJ&amp;redir_esc=y&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://norse-mythology.org/sif/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21702" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6449" RevisionGUID="ecbcb975-7444-4240-9734-3ea9e4398e1e" CreationDate="2020-07-15T06:17:32.640" UserId="6739" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="Does anyone know what the proper ancient Egyptian name for the Hall of Truth, Hall of Two Truths, or Hall of Judgement is? This is the hall where a soul is weighed on a scale against the feather of Ma'at. I've tried several google searches to no avail. Ma'at means truth, and the words wADyt and iwynt both mean a specific type of columned hall. The word wpt means judgement. I am just uncertain of the order they would go in, or which one is historically accurate. Any help would be greatly appreciated.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21707" PostHistoryTypeId="36" PostId="6469" RevisionGUID="8b52a52b-43a9-4858-af06-9eb4399134fe" CreationDate="2020-07-17T13:03:36.063" UserId="-1" Comment="from https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/115334/tubal-cain-%d7%aa%d6%bc%d7%95%d6%bc%d7%91%d6%b7%d7%9c-%d7%a7%d6%b7%d7%99%d6%b4%d7%9f-and-vulcan" />
  <row Id="21708" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6469" RevisionGUID="64c5d631-d022-4ae9-8f8e-2e1a062ef27b" CreationDate="2020-07-17T01:09:02.813" UserDisplayName="Ray Butterworth" Text="Without the &quot;Tu&quot;, Tubal-cain (תּוּבַל קַיִן) and Vulcan are very similar names.&#xD;&#xA;Both are famous for being metal-workers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any support for identifying the mythological Vulcan as based on the historical Tubal-cain?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21709" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6469" RevisionGUID="64c5d631-d022-4ae9-8f8e-2e1a062ef27b" CreationDate="2020-07-17T01:09:02.813" UserDisplayName="Ray Butterworth" Text="Tubal-cain (תּוּבַל קַיִן) and Vulcan" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21710" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6469" RevisionGUID="64c5d631-d022-4ae9-8f8e-2e1a062ef27b" CreationDate="2020-07-17T01:09:02.813" UserDisplayName="Ray Butterworth" Text="|untagged|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21711" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="6469" RevisionGUID="902c057b-6d48-4771-830c-420637fb1243" CreationDate="2020-07-17T15:19:06.380" UserId="183" Comment="edited tags" Text="|comparative|roman|bible|judaism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21712" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6470" RevisionGUID="a61a26d9-1899-4aa2-b613-a88365dca871" CreationDate="2020-07-17T16:21:11.147" UserId="7095" Text="According to [Wikipedia][1], there was an Egyptian deity named Iabet, sometimes also known as **Iab**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If this is what Rabbi Ashenburg is referring to, then perhaps the story was that prior to arriving in Egypt, the sons of Jacob were only vaguely aware of the more major Egyptian deities and therefore Issachar saw nothing wrong with Yov. Upon arriving in Egypt and discovering the many different Egyptian deities, including this minor goddess, he decided a name-change was in order.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iabet" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21713" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4931" RevisionGUID="3d65d088-b188-40d6-9150-1217732ccc97" CreationDate="2020-07-17T19:07:15.670" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="21716" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6469" RevisionGUID="114f17fa-4aff-46b1-a402-543a141df63c" CreationDate="2020-07-17T22:09:13.603" UserId="-1" Comment="Added context for the uninitiated" Text="Without the &quot;Tu&quot;, Tubal-cain (תּוּבַל קַיִן) (Genesis 4:22) and Vulcan are very similar names.&#xD;&#xA;Both are famous for being metal-workers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any support for identifying the mythological Vulcan as based on the historical Tubal-cain?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21717" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="6469" RevisionGUID="114f17fa-4aff-46b1-a402-543a141df63c" CreationDate="2020-07-17T22:09:13.603" Comment="Proposed by anonymous approved by 7097 edit id of 1818" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21718" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6469" RevisionGUID="615de451-9d17-4558-8588-aacbb3157169" CreationDate="2020-07-17T22:17:19.663" UserId="7097" Comment="Add details that would have been obvious on the original judaism.se site." Text="In Hebrew, &quot;B&quot; and &quot;V&quot; are the same letter (ב), so without the &quot;Tu&quot;, Tubalcain (תּוּבַל קַיִן) and Vulcan are very similar names.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both are famous for being metal-workers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron — Genesis 4:22&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any support for identifying the mythological Vulcan as based on the historical Tubalcain?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21719" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6472" RevisionGUID="df9ba59a-ff7a-441a-aecd-e3f20dabf823" CreationDate="2020-07-18T10:58:40.053" UserId="6871" Text="**These are, conclusively, *Coclé*, but the culture appears to be very similar to Tairona.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It appears that these images are near-perfect replicas of the imagery on two [Gran Coclé][1] plaques. What appears to be the same entity as the first image is identified [here][2] as a &quot;sun deity&quot; and [here][3] as a &quot;crocodile god&quot;. Cooke and Bray (1) identify this as a &quot;saurian-human figure&quot;, and note that Helms (2) makes a strong case that these are iguanas. I have unfortunately not been able to find a copy of that paper.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In any case, the two specific images are conclusively from artifacts found at [sitio Conte][4], which are currently at Penn Museum: [the saurian-human plaque][5] and [the bird figures plaque][6].&#xD;&#xA;[![saurian plaque][9]][9] &#xD;&#xA;[![bird plaque][10]][10] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In researching this, I was surprised how similar Tairona art was to these Panamanian artefacts. For example [these twins][7] are Tairona... compared to  these from the other end of Panama (from Cooke, Bray, ibid., p. 38):&#xD;&#xA;[![Chiriqui twins][8]][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gran_Cocl%C3%A9&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://benedante.blogspot.com/2017/09/gold-of-panama.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.meisterdrucke.com/kunstdrucke/Pre-Columbian/257248/Embossed-Plaque-mit-einem-Krokodil-Gott,-aus-Sitio-Conte,-Cocle-Provinz,-Panama,-Late-Cocle-Stil-(Gold).html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sitio_Conte&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.penn.museum/collections/object/133475&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.penn.museum/collections/object/49262&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/magazine/2019/11-12/ancient-lost-city-colombia-teyuna/#/01-golden-twins.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/51bTM.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://upmaa-pennmuseum.netdna-ssl.com/collections/assets/1600/27406.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://upmaa-pennmuseum.netdna-ssl.com/collections/assets/1600/177161.jpg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;**References**:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Cooke, Richard G. and Bray, Warwick. &quot;The Goldwork of Panama: an Iconographic and Chronological Perspective.&quot; *The Art of Precolumbian Gold*, 1985, p.39.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 2. Helms, Mary W. &quot;Iguanas and Crocodilians in Tropical American Mythology and Iconography with special reference to Panama&quot;. *Journal of Latin American Lore* 3(1): 51-132" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21720" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6472" RevisionGUID="fc26eb84-f57b-4e35-aad2-29050d2e5935" CreationDate="2020-07-18T11:06:29.417" UserId="6871" Comment="added 261 characters in body" Text="**These are, conclusively, *Coclé*, but the culture appears to be very similar to Tairona.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It appears that these images are near-perfect replicas of the imagery on two [Gran Coclé][1] plaques. What appears to be the same entity as the first image is identified [here][2] as a &quot;sun deity&quot; and [here][3] as a &quot;crocodile god&quot;. Cooke and Bray (ref 1) identify this as a &quot;saurian-human figure&quot;, and note that Helms (ref 2) makes a strong case that the animals are iguanas. I have unfortunately not been able to find a copy of that paper.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In any case, the two specific images are conclusively from artifacts found at [sitio Conte][4], which are currently at Penn Museum: [the saurian-human plaque][5] and [the bird figures plaque][6].&#xD;&#xA;[![saurian plaque][9]][9] &#xD;&#xA;[![bird plaque][10]][10] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In researching this, I was surprised how similar Tairona art was to precolumbian Panamanian artefacts. Compare, for example these Tairona &quot;twins&quot; (photo: WERNER FORMAN/GTRES, from [this National Geographic article][7]):&#xD;&#xA;[![Tairona twins][11]][11]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;vs these from the other end of Panama (from Cooke, Bray, ibid., p. 38):&#xD;&#xA;[![Chiriqui twins][8]][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gran_Cocl%C3%A9&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://benedante.blogspot.com/2017/09/gold-of-panama.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.meisterdrucke.com/kunstdrucke/Pre-Columbian/257248/Embossed-Plaque-mit-einem-Krokodil-Gott,-aus-Sitio-Conte,-Cocle-Provinz,-Panama,-Late-Cocle-Stil-(Gold).html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sitio_Conte&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.penn.museum/collections/object/133475&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.penn.museum/collections/object/49262&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/magazine/2019/11-12/ancient-lost-city-colombia-teyuna/#/01-golden-twins.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/51bTM.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://upmaa-pennmuseum.netdna-ssl.com/collections/assets/1600/27406.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://upmaa-pennmuseum.netdna-ssl.com/collections/assets/1600/177161.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/content/dam/archaeologyandhistory/rights-exempt/history-magazine/2019/11-12/teyuna/01-golden-twins.adapt.1900.1.jpg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;**References**:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Cooke, Richard G. and Bray, Warwick. &quot;The Goldwork of Panama: an Iconographic and Chronological Perspective.&quot; *The Art of Precolumbian Gold*, 1985, p.39.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 2. Helms, Mary W. &quot;Iguanas and Crocodilians in Tropical American Mythology and Iconography with special reference to Panama&quot;. *Journal of Latin American Lore* 3(1): 51-132, 1977" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21721" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6469" RevisionGUID="9f97f81a-7795-4155-9f04-33bad418cdca" CreationDate="2020-07-18T22:22:52.703" UserId="7097" Comment="Mention the French spelling." Text="In Hebrew, &quot;B&quot; and &quot;V&quot; are the same letter (ב), so without the &quot;Tu&quot;, Tubalcain (תּוּבַל קַיִן) and Vulcan are very similar names.&#xD;&#xA;The French spelling is &quot;Vulcain&quot;, which is even closer than the English.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both are famous for being metal-workers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron — Genesis 4:22&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any support for identifying the mythological Vulcan as based on the historical Tubalcain?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21722" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6473" RevisionGUID="f1e5a7d8-c561-48bb-8ca2-26d148a2514a" CreationDate="2020-07-19T07:12:07.387" UserId="7095" Text="Googling Vulcan and Tubalcain has revealed a wealth of information:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [McClintock and Strong Biblical Cyclopedia][1] writes:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;The derivation of the name is extremely obscure. Hasse (Entdeckungen, 2, 37, quoted by Knobel on Ge 4:22) identifies Tubal-cain with Vulcan; and Buttmann (Mythol. 1, 164) not only compares these names, but adds to the comparison the Τελχῖνες of Rhodes, the first workers in copper and iron (Strabo, 14:654), and Dwalinn, the daemon smith of the Scandinavian mythology. Gesenius proposed to consider it a hybrid word, compounded of the Pers. tupal, iron slag, or scoria, and the Arab. kain, a smith; but this etymology is more than doubtful. The Scythian race Tubal, who were coppersmiths (Eze 27:13), naturally suggest themselves in connection with Tubal-cain.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Swedenborgstudy][2] writes:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Vulcan, on the other hand, has been compared to the Sanscrit ulka, a firebrand, but we would suggest, instead, a comparison with the Assyrian Vul, the god of the thunderbolt, and also with the Hebrew Tubal-cain. The name Tubal, like his ancestors Jabal and Jubal (Gen. 4:20-22), is a form of the verb Jabhal, to sound, to make a loud noise, and, since b and v are radically one, we have here also the origin of Vul. The name &quot;Cain&quot; means simply &quot;a smith,&quot; and we would be obdurate, indeed, were we to refuse recognizing a connection between Vul-can and Tubal-cain, &quot;the instructor of every artificer of brass and iron.&quot;&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Clarke's commentary on the Bible][3]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;M. De Lavaur, in his Conference de la Fable avec l'Histoire Sainte, supposes that the Greeks and Romans took their smith-god Vulcan from Tubal-cain, the son of Lamech. The probability of this will appear,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;1. From the name, which, by the omission of the Tu and turning the b into v, a change frequently made among the Hebrews, Greeks, and Romans, makes Vulcain or Vulcan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;2. From his occupation he was an artificer, a master smith in brass and iron.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;3. He thinks this farther probable from the names and sounds in this verse. The melting metals in the fire, and hammering them, bears a near resemblance to the hissing sound of צלה tsillah, the mother of Tubal-cain; and צלל tsalal signifies to tinkle or make a sound like a bell, 1 Samuel 3:11 2 Kings 21:12.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;4. Vulcan is said to have been lame; M. De Lavaur thinks that this notion was taken from the noun צלא tsela, which signifies a halting or lameness.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;5. Vulcan had to wife Venus, the goddess of beauty; Naamah, the sister of Tubal-cain, he thinks, may have given rise to this part of the fable, as her name in Hebrew signifies beautiful or gracious.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;6. Vulcan is reported to have been jealous of his wife, and to have forged nets in which he took Mars and her, and exposed them to the view of the whole celestial court: this idea he thinks was derived from the literal import of the name Tubal-cain; תבל tebel signifies an incestuous mixture of relatives, Leviticus 20:12; and קנא kana, to burn with jealousy; from these and concomitant circumstances the case of the detected adultery of Mars and Venus might be easily deduced. He is of opinion that a tradition of this kind might have readily found its way from the Egyptians to the Greeks, as the former had frequent intercourse with the Hebrews.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Of Naamah nothing more is spoken in the Scriptures; but the Targum of Jonathan ben Uzziel makes her the inventress of funeral songs and lamentations. R. S. Jarchi says she was the wife of Noah, and quotes Bereshith Rabba in support of the opinion. Some of the Jewish doctors say her name is recorded in Scripture because she was an upright and chaste woman; but others affirm that the whole world wandered after her, and that of her evil spirits were born into the world. This latter opinion gives some countenance to that of M. De Lavaur.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Legends of Old Testament Characters, ch. 12][4]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Some Jewish writers adopt a tradition that Tubal-cain was not slain, but was severely injured by his father; according to some, he was lamed. Connecting this tradition with his name, a striking analogy springs up between him and the Vulcan of classic antiquity, and the Völundr of Norse mythology. Both were lame, both were forgers of iron, and the names Vulcan and Volundr bear some affinity to Tubal-cain; for, cutting off Tu, we have Balcain or Vulcan. A very learned and exhaustive monograph on Völundr has been written by MM. Depping and Michel.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Gnostic Warrior][5]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Masonic Historian, Albert Gallatin Mackey had said that Tubal Cain is the Vulcan of the Pagans, and is thought to have been closely connected with ancient Freemasonry. Here is a quote on Tubal Cain from Mackey’s book, A lexicon of freemasonry;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;He was the inventor of edge-tools, and introduced many arts into society which tended towards its improvement and civilization. Tubal Cain is the Vulcan of the Pagans, and is thought to have been closely connected with ancient Freemasonry. Faber says that “all the most remarkable ancient buildings of Greece, Egypt, and Asia Minor, were ascribed to Cabirean or Cyclopean Masons,” the descendants of Vulcan, Dhu Balcan, the god Balcan, or Tubal Cain. Oliver says, “In after times Tubal Cain, under the name of Vulcan and his Cyclops, figured as workers in metals and inventors of the mysteries; and hence it is probable that he was the hierophant of a similar institution in his day, copied from the previous system of Seth, and applied to the improvement of schemes more adapted to the physical pursuits of the race to which he belonged.”*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;For these reasons Tubal Cain has been consecrated among Masons of the present day as an ancient brother. His introduction of the arts of civilization having given the first value to property. Tubal Cain has been considered among Masons as a symbol of worldly possessions.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Sir Walter Ralegh][6]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...and as there is a likelihood of name between Tubalcain and Vulcan; so doth Augustine expound the name of Noema, or Naamah, the sister of Tubalcain, to signify *venusta*, or beautiful, *voluptus*, or pleasure; as the wife of Vulcan is said to be Venus, the lady of pleasure and beauty.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other words, yes, there is support for the suggestion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.biblicalcyclopedia.com/T/tubalcain.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.swedenborgstudy.com/books/C.Th.Odhner_Mythology-Greeks-Romans/24.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://biblehub.com/niv/genesis/4-22.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Legends_of_Old_Testament_Characters/Chapter_12&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://gnosticwarrior.com/tubal-cain.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://books.google.co.il/books?id=7dZotwEACAAJ&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;source=gbs_ge_summary_r&amp;cad=0#v=onepage&amp;q=vulcan&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21723" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6473" RevisionGUID="79d8e28c-19d4-4387-8396-2126cc056e85" CreationDate="2020-07-19T07:59:43.160" UserId="7095" Comment="Added Jewish sources" Text="Googling Vulcan and Tubalcain has revealed a wealth of information:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [McClintock and Strong Biblical Cyclopedia][1] writes:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;The derivation of the name is extremely obscure. Hasse (Entdeckungen, 2, 37, quoted by Knobel on Ge 4:22) identifies Tubal-cain with Vulcan; and Buttmann (Mythol. 1, 164) not only compares these names, but adds to the comparison the Τελχῖνες of Rhodes, the first workers in copper and iron (Strabo, 14:654), and Dwalinn, the daemon smith of the Scandinavian mythology. Gesenius proposed to consider it a hybrid word, compounded of the Pers. tupal, iron slag, or scoria, and the Arab. kain, a smith; but this etymology is more than doubtful. The Scythian race Tubal, who were coppersmiths (Eze 27:13), naturally suggest themselves in connection with Tubal-cain.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Swedenborgstudy][2] writes:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Vulcan, on the other hand, has been compared to the Sanscrit ulka, a firebrand, but we would suggest, instead, a comparison with the Assyrian Vul, the god of the thunderbolt, and also with the Hebrew Tubal-cain. The name Tubal, like his ancestors Jabal and Jubal (Gen. 4:20-22), is a form of the verb Jabhal, to sound, to make a loud noise, and, since b and v are radically one, we have here also the origin of Vul. The name &quot;Cain&quot; means simply &quot;a smith,&quot; and we would be obdurate, indeed, were we to refuse recognizing a connection between Vul-can and Tubal-cain, &quot;the instructor of every artificer of brass and iron.&quot;&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Clarke's commentary on the Bible][3]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;M. De Lavaur, in his Conference de la Fable avec l'Histoire Sainte, supposes that the Greeks and Romans took their smith-god Vulcan from Tubal-cain, the son of Lamech. The probability of this will appear,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;1. From the name, which, by the omission of the Tu and turning the b into v, a change frequently made among the Hebrews, Greeks, and Romans, makes Vulcain or Vulcan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;2. From his occupation he was an artificer, a master smith in brass and iron.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;3. He thinks this farther probable from the names and sounds in this verse. The melting metals in the fire, and hammering them, bears a near resemblance to the hissing sound of צלה tsillah, the mother of Tubal-cain; and צלל tsalal signifies to tinkle or make a sound like a bell, 1 Samuel 3:11 2 Kings 21:12.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;4. Vulcan is said to have been lame; M. De Lavaur thinks that this notion was taken from the noun צלא tsela, which signifies a halting or lameness.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;5. Vulcan had to wife Venus, the goddess of beauty; Naamah, the sister of Tubal-cain, he thinks, may have given rise to this part of the fable, as her name in Hebrew signifies beautiful or gracious.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;6. Vulcan is reported to have been jealous of his wife, and to have forged nets in which he took Mars and her, and exposed them to the view of the whole celestial court: this idea he thinks was derived from the literal import of the name Tubal-cain; תבל tebel signifies an incestuous mixture of relatives, Leviticus 20:12; and קנא kana, to burn with jealousy; from these and concomitant circumstances the case of the detected adultery of Mars and Venus might be easily deduced. He is of opinion that a tradition of this kind might have readily found its way from the Egyptians to the Greeks, as the former had frequent intercourse with the Hebrews.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Of Naamah nothing more is spoken in the Scriptures; but the Targum of Jonathan ben Uzziel makes her the inventress of funeral songs and lamentations. R. S. Jarchi says she was the wife of Noah, and quotes Bereshith Rabba in support of the opinion. Some of the Jewish doctors say her name is recorded in Scripture because she was an upright and chaste woman; but others affirm that the whole world wandered after her, and that of her evil spirits were born into the world. This latter opinion gives some countenance to that of M. De Lavaur.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Legends of Old Testament Characters, ch. 12][4]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Some Jewish writers adopt a tradition that Tubal-cain was not slain, but was severely injured by his father; according to some, he was lamed. Connecting this tradition with his name, a striking analogy springs up between him and the Vulcan of classic antiquity, and the Völundr of Norse mythology. Both were lame, both were forgers of iron, and the names Vulcan and Volundr bear some affinity to Tubal-cain; for, cutting off Tu, we have Balcain or Vulcan. A very learned and exhaustive monograph on Völundr has been written by MM. Depping and Michel.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Gnostic Warrior][5]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Masonic Historian, Albert Gallatin Mackey had said that Tubal Cain is the Vulcan of the Pagans, and is thought to have been closely connected with ancient Freemasonry. Here is a quote on Tubal Cain from Mackey’s book, A lexicon of freemasonry;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;He was the inventor of edge-tools, and introduced many arts into society which tended towards its improvement and civilization. Tubal Cain is the Vulcan of the Pagans, and is thought to have been closely connected with ancient Freemasonry. Faber says that “all the most remarkable ancient buildings of Greece, Egypt, and Asia Minor, were ascribed to Cabirean or Cyclopean Masons,” the descendants of Vulcan, Dhu Balcan, the god Balcan, or Tubal Cain. Oliver says, “In after times Tubal Cain, under the name of Vulcan and his Cyclops, figured as workers in metals and inventors of the mysteries; and hence it is probable that he was the hierophant of a similar institution in his day, copied from the previous system of Seth, and applied to the improvement of schemes more adapted to the physical pursuits of the race to which he belonged.”*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;For these reasons Tubal Cain has been consecrated among Masons of the present day as an ancient brother. His introduction of the arts of civilization having given the first value to property. Tubal Cain has been considered among Masons as a symbol of worldly possessions.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Sir Walter Ralegh][6]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...and as there is a likelihood of name between Tubalcain and Vulcan; so doth Augustine expound the name of Noema, or Naamah, the sister of Tubalcain, to signify *venusta*, or beautiful, *voluptus*, or pleasure; as the wife of Vulcan is said to be Venus, the lady of pleasure and beauty.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a Jewish perspective, [Malbim on Genesis 4:22][7] writes:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[My translation] &quot;And Tzilah, she too...I will not deny that in my opinion this story came, as many stories in the Torah that were brought to uproot false beliefs and foolish stories that became widespread in ancient times among the nations and were invented by priests of idols in the days of darkness, and there is still today remains from their mythology, that they would attribute to any person who invented a craft godly power, and they would say that deity x invented sitting in tents and flocks, and deity y invented the wisdom of making music, and deity z invented the strategies of war and the art of iron and weapon-making...know that...the inventors of the art of shepherding and trade and music and the craft of iron and metals were the sons of Lemech from the descendants of Cain, and the woman that was spoken of her greatness in their mythology and his named attained greatness, she was Naamah sister of Tubal Cain, they were all humans...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Shadal][8] says this directly:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[My translation] &quot;Tubal Cain: It appears that he is Vulcanus, and know that Kinia in Syrian and Arabic tongue means smith of gold and silver and also a crafter of iron. And Tubal (tu pal) in Persian tongue means a piece of gold and silver and copper...and without a doubt, many follies were told in ancient times about these people, and the Torah purified these stories from their sicknesses...Naamah: she too appears to have been worked, and perhaps she is Venus and her name bears witness on her.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other words, yes, there is support for the suggestion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.biblicalcyclopedia.com/T/tubalcain.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.swedenborgstudy.com/books/C.Th.Odhner_Mythology-Greeks-Romans/24.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://biblehub.com/niv/genesis/4-22.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Legends_of_Old_Testament_Characters/Chapter_12&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://gnosticwarrior.com/tubal-cain.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://books.google.co.il/books?id=7dZotwEACAAJ&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;source=gbs_ge_summary_r&amp;cad=0#v=onepage&amp;q=vulcan&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Malbim_on_Genesis.4.22.1?vhe=Malbim_on_Genesis_--_Wikisource&amp;lang=bi&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Genesis.4.22?lang=bi&amp;aliyot=0&amp;p2=Shadal_on_Genesis.4.22.1&amp;lang2=bi" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21724" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6473" RevisionGUID="296f2619-950f-477f-a560-96feca56ea49" CreationDate="2020-07-19T13:05:30.410" UserId="7095" Comment="Added R' Immanuel Francis" Text="Googling Vulcan and Tubalcain has revealed a wealth of information:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [McClintock and Strong Biblical Cyclopedia][1] writes:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;The derivation of the name is extremely obscure. Hasse (Entdeckungen, 2, 37, quoted by Knobel on Ge 4:22) identifies Tubal-cain with Vulcan; and Buttmann (Mythol. 1, 164) not only compares these names, but adds to the comparison the Τελχῖνες of Rhodes, the first workers in copper and iron (Strabo, 14:654), and Dwalinn, the daemon smith of the Scandinavian mythology. Gesenius proposed to consider it a hybrid word, compounded of the Pers. tupal, iron slag, or scoria, and the Arab. kain, a smith; but this etymology is more than doubtful. The Scythian race Tubal, who were coppersmiths (Eze 27:13), naturally suggest themselves in connection with Tubal-cain.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Swedenborgstudy][2] writes:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Vulcan, on the other hand, has been compared to the Sanscrit ulka, a firebrand, but we would suggest, instead, a comparison with the Assyrian Vul, the god of the thunderbolt, and also with the Hebrew Tubal-cain. The name Tubal, like his ancestors Jabal and Jubal (Gen. 4:20-22), is a form of the verb Jabhal, to sound, to make a loud noise, and, since b and v are radically one, we have here also the origin of Vul. The name &quot;Cain&quot; means simply &quot;a smith,&quot; and we would be obdurate, indeed, were we to refuse recognizing a connection between Vul-can and Tubal-cain, &quot;the instructor of every artificer of brass and iron.&quot;&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Clarke's commentary on the Bible][3]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;M. De Lavaur, in his Conference de la Fable avec l'Histoire Sainte, supposes that the Greeks and Romans took their smith-god Vulcan from Tubal-cain, the son of Lamech. The probability of this will appear,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;1. From the name, which, by the omission of the Tu and turning the b into v, a change frequently made among the Hebrews, Greeks, and Romans, makes Vulcain or Vulcan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;2. From his occupation he was an artificer, a master smith in brass and iron.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;3. He thinks this farther probable from the names and sounds in this verse. The melting metals in the fire, and hammering them, bears a near resemblance to the hissing sound of צלה tsillah, the mother of Tubal-cain; and צלל tsalal signifies to tinkle or make a sound like a bell, 1 Samuel 3:11 2 Kings 21:12.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;4. Vulcan is said to have been lame; M. De Lavaur thinks that this notion was taken from the noun צלא tsela, which signifies a halting or lameness.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;5. Vulcan had to wife Venus, the goddess of beauty; Naamah, the sister of Tubal-cain, he thinks, may have given rise to this part of the fable, as her name in Hebrew signifies beautiful or gracious.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;6. Vulcan is reported to have been jealous of his wife, and to have forged nets in which he took Mars and her, and exposed them to the view of the whole celestial court: this idea he thinks was derived from the literal import of the name Tubal-cain; תבל tebel signifies an incestuous mixture of relatives, Leviticus 20:12; and קנא kana, to burn with jealousy; from these and concomitant circumstances the case of the detected adultery of Mars and Venus might be easily deduced. He is of opinion that a tradition of this kind might have readily found its way from the Egyptians to the Greeks, as the former had frequent intercourse with the Hebrews.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Of Naamah nothing more is spoken in the Scriptures; but the Targum of Jonathan ben Uzziel makes her the inventress of funeral songs and lamentations. R. S. Jarchi says she was the wife of Noah, and quotes Bereshith Rabba in support of the opinion. Some of the Jewish doctors say her name is recorded in Scripture because she was an upright and chaste woman; but others affirm that the whole world wandered after her, and that of her evil spirits were born into the world. This latter opinion gives some countenance to that of M. De Lavaur.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Legends of Old Testament Characters, ch. 12][4]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Some Jewish writers adopt a tradition that Tubal-cain was not slain, but was severely injured by his father; according to some, he was lamed. Connecting this tradition with his name, a striking analogy springs up between him and the Vulcan of classic antiquity, and the Völundr of Norse mythology. Both were lame, both were forgers of iron, and the names Vulcan and Volundr bear some affinity to Tubal-cain; for, cutting off Tu, we have Balcain or Vulcan. A very learned and exhaustive monograph on Völundr has been written by MM. Depping and Michel.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Gnostic Warrior][5]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Masonic Historian, Albert Gallatin Mackey had said that Tubal Cain is the Vulcan of the Pagans, and is thought to have been closely connected with ancient Freemasonry. Here is a quote on Tubal Cain from Mackey’s book, A lexicon of freemasonry;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;He was the inventor of edge-tools, and introduced many arts into society which tended towards its improvement and civilization. Tubal Cain is the Vulcan of the Pagans, and is thought to have been closely connected with ancient Freemasonry. Faber says that “all the most remarkable ancient buildings of Greece, Egypt, and Asia Minor, were ascribed to Cabirean or Cyclopean Masons,” the descendants of Vulcan, Dhu Balcan, the god Balcan, or Tubal Cain. Oliver says, “In after times Tubal Cain, under the name of Vulcan and his Cyclops, figured as workers in metals and inventors of the mysteries; and hence it is probable that he was the hierophant of a similar institution in his day, copied from the previous system of Seth, and applied to the improvement of schemes more adapted to the physical pursuits of the race to which he belonged.”*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;For these reasons Tubal Cain has been consecrated among Masons of the present day as an ancient brother. His introduction of the arts of civilization having given the first value to property. Tubal Cain has been considered among Masons as a symbol of worldly possessions.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Sir Walter Ralegh][6]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...and as there is a likelihood of name between Tubalcain and Vulcan; so doth Augustine expound the name of Noema, or Naamah, the sister of Tubalcain, to signify *venusta*, or beautiful, *voluptus*, or pleasure; as the wife of Vulcan is said to be Venus, the lady of pleasure and beauty.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a Jewish perspective, [Malbim on Genesis 4:22][7] writes:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[My translation] &quot;And Tzilah, she too...I will not deny that in my opinion this story came, as many stories in the Torah that were brought to uproot false beliefs and foolish stories that became widespread in ancient times among the nations and were invented by priests of idols in the days of darkness, and there is still today remains from their mythology, that they would attribute to any person who invented a craft godly power, and they would say that deity x invented sitting in tents and flocks, and deity y invented the wisdom of making music, and deity z invented the strategies of war and the art of iron and weapon-making...know that...the inventors of the art of shepherding and trade and music and the craft of iron and metals were the sons of Lemech from the descendants of Cain, and the woman that was spoken of her greatness in their mythology and his named attained greatness, she was Naamah sister of Tubal Cain, they were all humans...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Shadal][8] says this directly:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[My translation] &quot;Tubal Cain: It appears that he is Vulcanus, and know that Kinia in Syrian and Arabic tongue means smith of gold and silver and also a crafter of iron. And Tubal (tu pal) in Persian tongue means a piece of gold and silver and copper...and without a doubt, many follies were told in ancient times about these people, and the Torah purified these stories from their sicknesses...Naamah: she too appears to have been worked, and perhaps she is Venus and her name bears witness on her.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[R' Immanuel Francis][9] writes:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[My translation] &quot;...Lemech was a very wise in all designer's crafts and taught his sons...and to the third the craft of the smiths, to sharpen iron and copper...and it is possible that Lemech and his sons were accepted by the people of their generation into divinity, for that was their way of foolish people to accept upon themselves as deities all inventors of a craft, and they would call him the god of the craft that he invented. And in the books of ancient idolatry they wrote that the god of flocks is called Pan and the name of the god of music is Apollo and the god of smiths Vulkano and they were all children of Jupiter and their sister was Venus wife of Vulkano and was the deity of immorality for she was the first to act promiscuously. And perhaps Lemech and his two sons were deities to the people of their generation, for Vulkano is close to the name of Tubal-Cain and the names of the others were distorted over time and the mixing of the tongues, and the name Naamah comes from the word nei'mut [pleasure] because of the immorality...&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other words, yes, there is support for the suggestion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.biblicalcyclopedia.com/T/tubalcain.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.swedenborgstudy.com/books/C.Th.Odhner_Mythology-Greeks-Romans/24.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://biblehub.com/niv/genesis/4-22.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Legends_of_Old_Testament_Characters/Chapter_12&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://gnosticwarrior.com/tubal-cain.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://books.google.co.il/books?id=7dZotwEACAAJ&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;source=gbs_ge_summary_r&amp;cad=0#v=onepage&amp;q=vulcan&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Malbim_on_Genesis.4.22.1?vhe=Malbim_on_Genesis_--_Wikisource&amp;lang=bi&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Genesis.4.22?lang=bi&amp;aliyot=0&amp;p2=Shadal_on_Genesis.4.22.1&amp;lang2=bi&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=34108&amp;st=&amp;pgnum=30&amp;hilite=" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21725" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6473" RevisionGUID="d5fb3c03-bbf0-4c45-8689-8afc53505a4e" CreationDate="2020-07-19T13:36:37.980" UserId="7095" Comment="added 1175 characters in body" Text="Googling Vulcan and Tubalcain has revealed a wealth of information:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [McClintock and Strong Biblical Cyclopedia][1] writes:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;The derivation of the name is extremely obscure. Hasse (Entdeckungen, 2, 37, quoted by Knobel on Ge 4:22) identifies Tubal-cain with Vulcan; and Buttmann (Mythol. 1, 164) not only compares these names, but adds to the comparison the Τελχῖνες of Rhodes, the first workers in copper and iron (Strabo, 14:654), and Dwalinn, the daemon smith of the Scandinavian mythology. Gesenius proposed to consider it a hybrid word, compounded of the Pers. tupal, iron slag, or scoria, and the Arab. kain, a smith; but this etymology is more than doubtful. The Scythian race Tubal, who were coppersmiths (Eze 27:13), naturally suggest themselves in connection with Tubal-cain.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Swedenborgstudy][2] writes:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Vulcan, on the other hand, has been compared to the Sanscrit ulka, a firebrand, but we would suggest, instead, a comparison with the Assyrian Vul, the god of the thunderbolt, and also with the Hebrew Tubal-cain. The name Tubal, like his ancestors Jabal and Jubal (Gen. 4:20-22), is a form of the verb Jabhal, to sound, to make a loud noise, and, since b and v are radically one, we have here also the origin of Vul. The name &quot;Cain&quot; means simply &quot;a smith,&quot; and we would be obdurate, indeed, were we to refuse recognizing a connection between Vul-can and Tubal-cain, &quot;the instructor of every artificer of brass and iron.&quot;&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Clarke's commentary on the Bible][3]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;M. De Lavaur, in his Conference de la Fable avec l'Histoire Sainte, supposes that the Greeks and Romans took their smith-god Vulcan from Tubal-cain, the son of Lamech. The probability of this will appear,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;1. From the name, which, by the omission of the Tu and turning the b into v, a change frequently made among the Hebrews, Greeks, and Romans, makes Vulcain or Vulcan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;2. From his occupation he was an artificer, a master smith in brass and iron.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;3. He thinks this farther probable from the names and sounds in this verse. The melting metals in the fire, and hammering them, bears a near resemblance to the hissing sound of צלה tsillah, the mother of Tubal-cain; and צלל tsalal signifies to tinkle or make a sound like a bell, 1 Samuel 3:11 2 Kings 21:12.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;4. Vulcan is said to have been lame; M. De Lavaur thinks that this notion was taken from the noun צלא tsela, which signifies a halting or lameness.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;5. Vulcan had to wife Venus, the goddess of beauty; Naamah, the sister of Tubal-cain, he thinks, may have given rise to this part of the fable, as her name in Hebrew signifies beautiful or gracious.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;6. Vulcan is reported to have been jealous of his wife, and to have forged nets in which he took Mars and her, and exposed them to the view of the whole celestial court: this idea he thinks was derived from the literal import of the name Tubal-cain; תבל tebel signifies an incestuous mixture of relatives, Leviticus 20:12; and קנא kana, to burn with jealousy; from these and concomitant circumstances the case of the detected adultery of Mars and Venus might be easily deduced. He is of opinion that a tradition of this kind might have readily found its way from the Egyptians to the Greeks, as the former had frequent intercourse with the Hebrews.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Of Naamah nothing more is spoken in the Scriptures; but the Targum of Jonathan ben Uzziel makes her the inventress of funeral songs and lamentations. R. S. Jarchi says she was the wife of Noah, and quotes Bereshith Rabba in support of the opinion. Some of the Jewish doctors say her name is recorded in Scripture because she was an upright and chaste woman; but others affirm that the whole world wandered after her, and that of her evil spirits were born into the world. This latter opinion gives some countenance to that of M. De Lavaur.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Legends of Old Testament Characters, ch. 12][4]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Some Jewish writers adopt a tradition that Tubal-cain was not slain, but was severely injured by his father; according to some, he was lamed. Connecting this tradition with his name, a striking analogy springs up between him and the Vulcan of classic antiquity, and the Völundr of Norse mythology. Both were lame, both were forgers of iron, and the names Vulcan and Volundr bear some affinity to Tubal-cain; for, cutting off Tu, we have Balcain or Vulcan. A very learned and exhaustive monograph on Völundr has been written by MM. Depping and Michel.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Gnostic Warrior][5]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Masonic Historian, Albert Gallatin Mackey had said that Tubal Cain is the Vulcan of the Pagans, and is thought to have been closely connected with ancient Freemasonry. Here is a quote on Tubal Cain from Mackey’s book, A lexicon of freemasonry;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;He was the inventor of edge-tools, and introduced many arts into society which tended towards its improvement and civilization. Tubal Cain is the Vulcan of the Pagans, and is thought to have been closely connected with ancient Freemasonry. Faber says that “all the most remarkable ancient buildings of Greece, Egypt, and Asia Minor, were ascribed to Cabirean or Cyclopean Masons,” the descendants of Vulcan, Dhu Balcan, the god Balcan, or Tubal Cain. Oliver says, “In after times Tubal Cain, under the name of Vulcan and his Cyclops, figured as workers in metals and inventors of the mysteries; and hence it is probable that he was the hierophant of a similar institution in his day, copied from the previous system of Seth, and applied to the improvement of schemes more adapted to the physical pursuits of the race to which he belonged.”*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;For these reasons Tubal Cain has been consecrated among Masons of the present day as an ancient brother. His introduction of the arts of civilization having given the first value to property. Tubal Cain has been considered among Masons as a symbol of worldly possessions.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Sir Walter Ralegh][6]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...and as there is a likelihood of name between Tubalcain and Vulcan; so doth Augustine expound the name of Noema, or Naamah, the sister of Tubalcain, to signify *venusta*, or beautiful, *voluptus*, or pleasure; as the wife of Vulcan is said to be Venus, the lady of pleasure and beauty.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a Jewish perspective, [Malbim on Genesis 4:22][7] writes:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[My translation] &quot;And Tzilah, she too...I will not deny that in my opinion this story came, as many stories in the Torah that were brought to uproot false beliefs and foolish stories that became widespread in ancient times among the nations and were invented by priests of idols in the days of darkness, and there is still today remains from their mythology, that they would attribute to any person who invented a craft godly power, and they would say that deity x invented sitting in tents and flocks, and deity y invented the wisdom of making music, and deity z invented the strategies of war and the art of iron and weapon-making...know that...the inventors of the art of shepherding and trade and music and the craft of iron and metals were the sons of Lemech from the descendants of Cain, and the woman that was spoken of her greatness in their mythology and his named attained greatness, she was Naamah sister of Tubal Cain, they were all humans...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Shadal][8] says this directly:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[My translation] &quot;Tubal Cain: It appears that he is Vulcanus, and know that Kinia in Syrian and Arabic tongue means smith of gold and silver and also a crafter of iron. And Tubal (tu pal) in Persian tongue means a piece of gold and silver and copper...and without a doubt, many follies were told in ancient times about these people, and the Torah purified these stories from their sicknesses...Naamah: she too appears to have been worked, and perhaps she is Venus and her name bears witness on her.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[R' Immanuel Francis][9] writes:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[My translation] &quot;...Lemech was a very wise in all designer's crafts and taught his sons...and to the third the craft of the smiths, to sharpen iron and copper...and it is possible that Lemech and his sons were accepted by the people of their generation into divinity, for that was their way of foolish people to accept upon themselves as deities all inventors of a craft, and they would call him the god of the craft that he invented. And in the books of ancient idolatry they wrote that the god of flocks is called Pan and the name of the god of music is Apollo and the god of smiths Vulkano and they were all children of Jupiter and their sister was Venus wife of Vulkano and was the deity of immorality for she was the first to act promiscuously. And perhaps Lemech and his two sons were deities to the people of their generation, for Vulkano is close to the name of Tubal-Cain and the names of the others were distorted over time and the mixing of the tongues, and the name Naamah comes from the word nei'mut [pleasure] because of the immorality...&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other words, yes, there is support for the suggestion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;For the figure in a historical context, see [Universal Jewish History][10] by Rabbi Philip Biberfeld. For example:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;The climax came with the rise of metallurgy, which is connected with the name Tubal-cain, the first smith of copper and iron. This new art was soon misused to produce the weapons of war...another city obviously connected with the descendants of Cain is mentioned in the earliest Babylonian king-list. Its name, Badgurgurru, means 'fortress of workers in bronze'; and it seems very probable that it was one of those founded by Tubal-cain, the originator of metallurgy. According to this list, the sovereignty or supremacy was, at the beginning, at Eridu. its rule was overthrown by the kings of Badgurgurru. From there it seems to have passed by conquest to Larak, Sippar, and finally to Shurippak, which was wiped out at the time of the Flood. This would indicate that the descendants of Cain, after the discovery of metallurgy, conquered the land with their superior weapons and founded new cities (Larak, Sippar, Shurippak) among which a constant fight for supremacy raged until they were destroyed by the Flood. Etc&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.biblicalcyclopedia.com/T/tubalcain.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.swedenborgstudy.com/books/C.Th.Odhner_Mythology-Greeks-Romans/24.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://biblehub.com/niv/genesis/4-22.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Legends_of_Old_Testament_Characters/Chapter_12&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://gnosticwarrior.com/tubal-cain.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://books.google.co.il/books?id=7dZotwEACAAJ&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;source=gbs_ge_summary_r&amp;cad=0#v=onepage&amp;q=vulcan&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Malbim_on_Genesis.4.22.1?vhe=Malbim_on_Genesis_--_Wikisource&amp;lang=bi&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Genesis.4.22?lang=bi&amp;aliyot=0&amp;p2=Shadal_on_Genesis.4.22.1&amp;lang2=bi&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=34108&amp;st=&amp;pgnum=30&amp;hilite=&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://www.hebrewbooks.org/4187" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21726" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6473" RevisionGUID="108351fb-855e-4e1a-b0cd-500dc7422f76" CreationDate="2020-07-19T13:57:10.837" UserId="7095" Comment="added 103 characters in body" Text="Googling Vulcan and Tubalcain has revealed a wealth of information:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [McClintock and Strong Biblical Cyclopedia][1] writes:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;The derivation of the name is extremely obscure. Hasse (Entdeckungen, 2, 37, quoted by Knobel on Ge 4:22) identifies Tubal-cain with Vulcan; and Buttmann (Mythol. 1, 164) not only compares these names, but adds to the comparison the Τελχῖνες of Rhodes, the first workers in copper and iron (Strabo, 14:654), and Dwalinn, the daemon smith of the Scandinavian mythology. Gesenius proposed to consider it a hybrid word, compounded of the Pers. tupal, iron slag, or scoria, and the Arab. kain, a smith; but this etymology is more than doubtful. The Scythian race Tubal, who were coppersmiths (Eze 27:13), naturally suggest themselves in connection with Tubal-cain.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Swedenborgstudy][2] writes:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Vulcan, on the other hand, has been compared to the Sanscrit ulka, a firebrand, but we would suggest, instead, a comparison with the Assyrian Vul, the god of the thunderbolt, and also with the Hebrew Tubal-cain. The name Tubal, like his ancestors Jabal and Jubal (Gen. 4:20-22), is a form of the verb Jabhal, to sound, to make a loud noise, and, since b and v are radically one, we have here also the origin of Vul. The name &quot;Cain&quot; means simply &quot;a smith,&quot; and we would be obdurate, indeed, were we to refuse recognizing a connection between Vul-can and Tubal-cain, &quot;the instructor of every artificer of brass and iron.&quot;&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Clarke's commentary on the Bible][3]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;M. De Lavaur, in his Conference de la Fable avec l'Histoire Sainte, supposes that the Greeks and Romans took their smith-god Vulcan from Tubal-cain, the son of Lamech. The probability of this will appear,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;1. From the name, which, by the omission of the Tu and turning the b into v, a change frequently made among the Hebrews, Greeks, and Romans, makes Vulcain or Vulcan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;2. From his occupation he was an artificer, a master smith in brass and iron.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;3. He thinks this farther probable from the names and sounds in this verse. The melting metals in the fire, and hammering them, bears a near resemblance to the hissing sound of צלה tsillah, the mother of Tubal-cain; and צלל tsalal signifies to tinkle or make a sound like a bell, 1 Samuel 3:11 2 Kings 21:12.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;4. Vulcan is said to have been lame; M. De Lavaur thinks that this notion was taken from the noun צלא tsela, which signifies a halting or lameness.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;5. Vulcan had to wife Venus, the goddess of beauty; Naamah, the sister of Tubal-cain, he thinks, may have given rise to this part of the fable, as her name in Hebrew signifies beautiful or gracious.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;6. Vulcan is reported to have been jealous of his wife, and to have forged nets in which he took Mars and her, and exposed them to the view of the whole celestial court: this idea he thinks was derived from the literal import of the name Tubal-cain; תבל tebel signifies an incestuous mixture of relatives, Leviticus 20:12; and קנא kana, to burn with jealousy; from these and concomitant circumstances the case of the detected adultery of Mars and Venus might be easily deduced. He is of opinion that a tradition of this kind might have readily found its way from the Egyptians to the Greeks, as the former had frequent intercourse with the Hebrews.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Of Naamah nothing more is spoken in the Scriptures; but the Targum of Jonathan ben Uzziel makes her the inventress of funeral songs and lamentations. R. S. Jarchi says she was the wife of Noah, and quotes Bereshith Rabba in support of the opinion. Some of the Jewish doctors say her name is recorded in Scripture because she was an upright and chaste woman; but others affirm that the whole world wandered after her, and that of her evil spirits were born into the world. This latter opinion gives some countenance to that of M. De Lavaur.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Legends of Old Testament Characters, ch. 12][4]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Some Jewish writers adopt a tradition that Tubal-cain was not slain, but was severely injured by his father; according to some, he was lamed. Connecting this tradition with his name, a striking analogy springs up between him and the Vulcan of classic antiquity, and the Völundr of Norse mythology. Both were lame, both were forgers of iron, and the names Vulcan and Volundr bear some affinity to Tubal-cain; for, cutting off Tu, we have Balcain or Vulcan. A very learned and exhaustive monograph on Völundr has been written by MM. Depping and Michel.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Gnostic Warrior][5]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Masonic Historian, Albert Gallatin Mackey had said that Tubal Cain is the Vulcan of the Pagans, and is thought to have been closely connected with ancient Freemasonry. Here is a quote on Tubal Cain from Mackey’s book, A lexicon of freemasonry;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;He was the inventor of edge-tools, and introduced many arts into society which tended towards its improvement and civilization. Tubal Cain is the Vulcan of the Pagans, and is thought to have been closely connected with ancient Freemasonry. Faber says that “all the most remarkable ancient buildings of Greece, Egypt, and Asia Minor, were ascribed to Cabirean or Cyclopean Masons,” the descendants of Vulcan, Dhu Balcan, the god Balcan, or Tubal Cain. Oliver says, “In after times Tubal Cain, under the name of Vulcan and his Cyclops, figured as workers in metals and inventors of the mysteries; and hence it is probable that he was the hierophant of a similar institution in his day, copied from the previous system of Seth, and applied to the improvement of schemes more adapted to the physical pursuits of the race to which he belonged.”*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;For these reasons Tubal Cain has been consecrated among Masons of the present day as an ancient brother. His introduction of the arts of civilization having given the first value to property. Tubal Cain has been considered among Masons as a symbol of worldly possessions.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Sir Walter Ralegh][6]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...and as there is a likelihood of name between Tubalcain and Vulcan; so doth Augustine expound the name of Noema, or Naamah, the sister of Tubalcain, to signify *venusta*, or beautiful, *voluptus*, or pleasure; as the wife of Vulcan is said to be Venus, the lady of pleasure and beauty.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a Jewish perspective, [Malbim on Genesis 4:22][7] writes:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[My translation] &quot;And Tzilah, she too...I will not deny that in my opinion this story came, as many stories in the Torah that were brought to uproot false beliefs and foolish stories that became widespread in ancient times among the nations and were invented by priests of idols in the days of darkness, and there is still today remains from their mythology, that they would attribute to any person who invented a craft godly power, and they would say that deity x invented sitting in tents and flocks, and deity y invented the wisdom of making music, and deity z invented the strategies of war and the art of iron and weapon-making...know that...the inventors of the art of shepherding and trade and music and the craft of iron and metals were the sons of Lemech from the descendants of Cain, and the woman that was spoken of her greatness in their mythology and his named attained greatness, she was Naamah sister of Tubal Cain, they were all humans...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Shadal][8] says this directly:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[My translation] &quot;Tubal Cain: It appears that he is Vulcanus, and know that Kinia in Syrian and Arabic tongue means smith of gold and silver and also a crafter of iron. And Tubal (tu pal) in Persian tongue means a piece of gold and silver and copper...and without a doubt, many follies were told in ancient times about these people, and the Torah purified these stories from their sicknesses...Naamah: she too appears to have been worked, and perhaps she is Venus and her name bears witness on her.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[R' Immanuel Francis][9] writes:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[My translation] &quot;...Lemech was a very wise in all designer's crafts and taught his sons...and to the third the craft of the smiths, to sharpen iron and copper...and it is possible that Lemech and his sons were accepted by the people of their generation into divinity, for that was their way of foolish people to accept upon themselves as deities all inventors of a craft, and they would call him the god of the craft that he invented. And in the books of ancient idolatry they wrote that the god of flocks is called Pan and the name of the god of music is Apollo and the god of smiths Vulkano and they were all children of Jupiter and their sister was Venus wife of Vulkano and was the deity of immorality for she was the first to act promiscuously. And perhaps Lemech and his two sons were deities to the people of their generation, for Vulkano is close to the name of Tubal-Cain and the names of the others were distorted over time and the mixing of the tongues, and the name Naamah comes from the word nei'mut [pleasure] because of the immorality...&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other words, yes, there is support for the suggestion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;For the figure in a historical context, see [Universal Jewish History][10] by Rabbi Philip Biberfeld. For example:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;The climax came with the rise of metallurgy, which is connected with the name Tubal-cain, the first smith of copper and iron. This new art was soon misused to produce the weapons of war...another city obviously connected with the descendants of Cain is mentioned in the earliest Babylonian king-list. Its name, Badgurgurru, means 'fortress of workers in bronze'; and it seems very probable that it was one of those founded by Tubal-cain, the originator of metallurgy. According to this list, the sovereignty or supremacy was, at the beginning, at Eridu. its rule was overthrown by the kings of Badgurgurru. From there it seems to have passed by conquest to Larak, Sippar, and finally to Shurippak, which was wiped out at the time of the Flood. This would indicate that the descendants of Cain, after the discovery of metallurgy, conquered the land with their superior weapons and founded new cities (Larak, Sippar, Shurippak) among which a constant fight for supremacy raged until they were destroyed by the Flood. Tubal-cain, the inventor of metallurgy, became the Vulcan of the Greeks and Romans, the god of smiths. Etc&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.biblicalcyclopedia.com/T/tubalcain.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.swedenborgstudy.com/books/C.Th.Odhner_Mythology-Greeks-Romans/24.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://biblehub.com/niv/genesis/4-22.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Legends_of_Old_Testament_Characters/Chapter_12&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://gnosticwarrior.com/tubal-cain.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://books.google.co.il/books?id=7dZotwEACAAJ&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;source=gbs_ge_summary_r&amp;cad=0#v=onepage&amp;q=vulcan&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Malbim_on_Genesis.4.22.1?vhe=Malbim_on_Genesis_--_Wikisource&amp;lang=bi&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Genesis.4.22?lang=bi&amp;aliyot=0&amp;p2=Shadal_on_Genesis.4.22.1&amp;lang2=bi&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=34108&amp;st=&amp;pgnum=30&amp;hilite=&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://www.hebrewbooks.org/4187" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21727" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6474" RevisionGUID="a53db6d6-6c45-48a7-9714-ac63d98b63b4" CreationDate="2020-07-19T20:51:43.033" UserId="7095" Text="In the Tanach, Ba'al-Pe'or was a Moabite deity used by the Moabites and Midianites to cause the People of Israel to [sin with idolatry and immorality][1] ([Numbers 25][2]). Ba'al Pe'or is further mentioned in some other Jewish sources, such as the Talmud and later works.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I was wondering if any non-Jewish sources mention Ba'al-Pe'or, in particular ancient text?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy_of_Peor&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0425.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21728" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6474" RevisionGUID="a53db6d6-6c45-48a7-9714-ac63d98b63b4" CreationDate="2020-07-19T20:51:43.033" UserId="7095" Text="Ba'al-Pe'or outside of Jewish sources" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21729" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6474" RevisionGUID="a53db6d6-6c45-48a7-9714-ac63d98b63b4" CreationDate="2020-07-19T20:51:43.033" UserId="7095" Text="|bible|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21730" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1767" RevisionGUID="8090e1e7-a35b-4537-9ca6-dffabb96ac34" CreationDate="2020-07-19T22:22:52.230" UserId="7095" Comment="Changed they're to they, capitalized Sumerian, added two the." Text="The following Bible passages mention “*Anakim*” and “*Anak*”:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Num 13:22; 13:28; 13:33&#xD;&#xA;- Deut 1:28; 2:10-11; 2:21, 9:2&#xD;&#xA;- Josh 11:21-22; 14:12; 14:15; 15:13-14; 21:11&#xD;&#xA;- Judg 1:20.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They sound similar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any known connection between the biblical *Anakim*/*Anak* entities and the Sumerian Anunnaki gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21731" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1767" RevisionGUID="8090e1e7-a35b-4537-9ca6-dffabb96ac34" CreationDate="2020-07-19T22:22:52.230" Comment="Proposed by 7095 approved by 5726, 51 edit id of 1819" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21732" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6474" RevisionGUID="d6949a06-a8a9-40c7-9c9b-36ba90a74b61" CreationDate="2020-07-20T11:03:20.767" UserId="7095" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="In the Tanach, Ba'al-Pe'or was a Moabite deity used by the Moabites and Midianites to cause the People of Israel to [sin with idolatry and immorality][1] ([Numbers 25][2]). Ba'al Pe'or is further mentioned in some other Jewish sources, such as the Talmud and later works.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I was wondering if any non-Jewish sources mention Ba'al-Pe'or, in particular ancient texts?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy_of_Peor&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0425.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21733" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6473" RevisionGUID="73819616-8be6-47cc-8d90-c203515619e3" CreationDate="2020-07-20T12:55:34.773" UserId="7095" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body" Text="Googling Vulcan and Tubalcain has revealed a wealth of information:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [McClintock and Strong Biblical Cyclopedia][1] writes:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;The derivation of the name is extremely obscure. Hasse (Entdeckungen, 2, 37, quoted by Knobel on Ge 4:22) identifies Tubal-cain with Vulcan; and Buttmann (Mythol. 1, 164) not only compares these names, but adds to the comparison the Τελχῖνες of Rhodes, the first workers in copper and iron (Strabo, 14:654), and Dwalinn, the daemon smith of the Scandinavian mythology. Gesenius proposed to consider it a hybrid word, compounded of the Pers. tupal, iron slag, or scoria, and the Arab. kain, a smith; but this etymology is more than doubtful. The Scythian race Tubal, who were coppersmiths (Eze 27:13), naturally suggest themselves in connection with Tubal-cain.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Swedenborgstudy][2] writes:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Vulcan, on the other hand, has been compared to the Sanscrit ulka, a firebrand, but we would suggest, instead, a comparison with the Assyrian Vul, the god of the thunderbolt, and also with the Hebrew Tubal-cain. The name Tubal, like his ancestors Jabal and Jubal (Gen. 4:20-22), is a form of the verb Jabhal, to sound, to make a loud noise, and, since b and v are radically one, we have here also the origin of Vul. The name &quot;Cain&quot; means simply &quot;a smith,&quot; and we would be obdurate, indeed, were we to refuse recognizing a connection between Vul-can and Tubal-cain, &quot;the instructor of every artificer of brass and iron.&quot;&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Clarke's commentary on the Bible][3]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;M. De Lavaur, in his Conference de la Fable avec l'Histoire Sainte, supposes that the Greeks and Romans took their smith-god Vulcan from Tubal-cain, the son of Lamech. The probability of this will appear,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;1. From the name, which, by the omission of the Tu and turning the b into v, a change frequently made among the Hebrews, Greeks, and Romans, makes Vulcain or Vulcan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;2. From his occupation he was an artificer, a master smith in brass and iron.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;3. He thinks this farther probable from the names and sounds in this verse. The melting metals in the fire, and hammering them, bears a near resemblance to the hissing sound of צלה tsillah, the mother of Tubal-cain; and צלל tsalal signifies to tinkle or make a sound like a bell, 1 Samuel 3:11 2 Kings 21:12.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;4. Vulcan is said to have been lame; M. De Lavaur thinks that this notion was taken from the noun צלא tsela, which signifies a halting or lameness.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;5. Vulcan had to wife Venus, the goddess of beauty; Naamah, the sister of Tubal-cain, he thinks, may have given rise to this part of the fable, as her name in Hebrew signifies beautiful or gracious.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;6. Vulcan is reported to have been jealous of his wife, and to have forged nets in which he took Mars and her, and exposed them to the view of the whole celestial court: this idea he thinks was derived from the literal import of the name Tubal-cain; תבל tebel signifies an incestuous mixture of relatives, Leviticus 20:12; and קנא kana, to burn with jealousy; from these and concomitant circumstances the case of the detected adultery of Mars and Venus might be easily deduced. He is of opinion that a tradition of this kind might have readily found its way from the Egyptians to the Greeks, as the former had frequent intercourse with the Hebrews.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Of Naamah nothing more is spoken in the Scriptures; but the Targum of Jonathan ben Uzziel makes her the inventress of funeral songs and lamentations. R. S. Jarchi says she was the wife of Noah, and quotes Bereshith Rabba in support of the opinion. Some of the Jewish doctors say her name is recorded in Scripture because she was an upright and chaste woman; but others affirm that the whole world wandered after her, and that of her evil spirits were born into the world. This latter opinion gives some countenance to that of M. De Lavaur.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Legends of Old Testament Characters, ch. 12][4]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Some Jewish writers adopt a tradition that Tubal-cain was not slain, but was severely injured by his father; according to some, he was lamed. Connecting this tradition with his name, a striking analogy springs up between him and the Vulcan of classic antiquity, and the Völundr of Norse mythology. Both were lame, both were forgers of iron, and the names Vulcan and Volundr bear some affinity to Tubal-cain; for, cutting off Tu, we have Balcain or Vulcan. A very learned and exhaustive monograph on Völundr has been written by MM. Depping and Michel.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Gnostic Warrior][5]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Masonic Historian, Albert Gallatin Mackey had said that Tubal Cain is the Vulcan of the Pagans, and is thought to have been closely connected with ancient Freemasonry. Here is a quote on Tubal Cain from Mackey’s book, A lexicon of freemasonry;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;He was the inventor of edge-tools, and introduced many arts into society which tended towards its improvement and civilization. Tubal Cain is the Vulcan of the Pagans, and is thought to have been closely connected with ancient Freemasonry. Faber says that “all the most remarkable ancient buildings of Greece, Egypt, and Asia Minor, were ascribed to Cabirean or Cyclopean Masons,” the descendants of Vulcan, Dhu Balcan, the god Balcan, or Tubal Cain. Oliver says, “In after times Tubal Cain, under the name of Vulcan and his Cyclops, figured as workers in metals and inventors of the mysteries; and hence it is probable that he was the hierophant of a similar institution in his day, copied from the previous system of Seth, and applied to the improvement of schemes more adapted to the physical pursuits of the race to which he belonged.”*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;For these reasons Tubal Cain has been consecrated among Masons of the present day as an ancient brother. His introduction of the arts of civilization having given the first value to property. Tubal Cain has been considered among Masons as a symbol of worldly possessions.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Sir Walter Ralegh][6]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...and as there is a likelihood of name between Tubalcain and Vulcan; so doth Augustine expound the name of Noema, or Naamah, the sister of Tubalcain, to signify *venusta*, or beautiful, *voluptus*, or pleasure; as the wife of Vulcan is said to be Venus, the lady of pleasure and beauty.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a Jewish perspective, [Malbim on Genesis 4:22][7] writes:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[My translation] &quot;And Tzilah, she too...I will not deny that in my opinion this story came, as many stories in the Torah that were brought to uproot false beliefs and foolish stories that became widespread in ancient times among the nations and were invented by priests of idols in the days of darkness, and there is still today remains from their mythology, that they would attribute to any person who invented a craft godly power, and they would say that deity x invented sitting in tents and flocks, and deity y invented the wisdom of making music, and deity z invented the strategies of war and the art of iron and weapon-making...know that...the inventors of the art of shepherding and trade and music and the craft of iron and metals were the sons of Lemech from the descendants of Cain, and the woman that was spoken of her greatness in their mythology and his named attained greatness, she was Naamah sister of Tubal Cain, they were all humans...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Shadal][8] says this directly:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[My translation] &quot;Tubal Cain: It appears that he is Vulcanus, and know that Kinia in Syrian and Arabic tongue means smith of gold and silver and also a crafter of iron. And Tubal (tu pal) in Persian tongue means a piece of gold and silver and copper...and without a doubt, many follies were told in ancient times about these people, and the Torah purified these stories from their sicknesses...Naamah: she too appears to have been worked, and perhaps she is Venus and her name bears witness on her.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[R' Immanuel Francis][9] writes:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[My translation] &quot;...Lemech was very wise in all designer's crafts and taught his sons...and to the third the craft of the smiths, to sharpen iron and copper...and it is possible that Lemech and his sons were accepted by the people of their generation into divinity, for that was their way of foolish people to accept upon themselves as deities all inventors of a craft, and they would call him the god of the craft that he invented. And in the books of ancient idolatry they wrote that the god of flocks is called Pan and the name of the god of music is Apollo and the god of smiths Vulkano and they were all children of Jupiter and their sister was Venus wife of Vulkano and was the deity of immorality for she was the first to act promiscuously. And perhaps Lemech and his two sons were deities to the people of their generation, for Vulkano is close to the name of Tubal-Cain and the names of the others were distorted over time and the mixing of the tongues, and the name Naamah comes from the word nei'mut [pleasure] because of the immorality...&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other words, yes, there is support for the suggestion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;For the figure in a historical context, see [Universal Jewish History][10] by Rabbi Philip Biberfeld. For example:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;The climax came with the rise of metallurgy, which is connected with the name Tubal-cain, the first smith of copper and iron. This new art was soon misused to produce the weapons of war...another city obviously connected with the descendants of Cain is mentioned in the earliest Babylonian king-list. Its name, Badgurgurru, means 'fortress of workers in bronze'; and it seems very probable that it was one of those founded by Tubal-cain, the originator of metallurgy. According to this list, the sovereignty or supremacy was, at the beginning, at Eridu. its rule was overthrown by the kings of Badgurgurru. From there it seems to have passed by conquest to Larak, Sippar, and finally to Shurippak, which was wiped out at the time of the Flood. This would indicate that the descendants of Cain, after the discovery of metallurgy, conquered the land with their superior weapons and founded new cities (Larak, Sippar, Shurippak) among which a constant fight for supremacy raged until they were destroyed by the Flood. Tubal-cain, the inventor of metallurgy, became the Vulcan of the Greeks and Romans, the god of smiths. Etc&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.biblicalcyclopedia.com/T/tubalcain.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.swedenborgstudy.com/books/C.Th.Odhner_Mythology-Greeks-Romans/24.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://biblehub.com/niv/genesis/4-22.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Legends_of_Old_Testament_Characters/Chapter_12&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://gnosticwarrior.com/tubal-cain.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://books.google.co.il/books?id=7dZotwEACAAJ&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;source=gbs_ge_summary_r&amp;cad=0#v=onepage&amp;q=vulcan&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Malbim_on_Genesis.4.22.1?vhe=Malbim_on_Genesis_--_Wikisource&amp;lang=bi&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Genesis.4.22?lang=bi&amp;aliyot=0&amp;p2=Shadal_on_Genesis.4.22.1&amp;lang2=bi&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=34108&amp;st=&amp;pgnum=30&amp;hilite=&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://www.hebrewbooks.org/4187" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21737" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6476" RevisionGUID="7c432d4a-f524-45e5-b51b-8261502b611c" CreationDate="2020-07-20T21:11:12.547" UserId="7095" Text="Perhaps an answer can be found from a different group of Celtic people, the Welsh:&#xD;&#xA;Math fab Mathonwy was a king of Gwynedd who needed to rest his feet in the lap of a virgin unless he was at war, or he would die. ([Wikipedia][1]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the book Celtic goddesses by Miranda J. Aldhouse-Green, [pg. 70][2], she writes:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The sexual imagery of the goddess can also be less obvious: in the story of Da Derga's Hostel (see p.73), the doomed King Conaire refused entry to a crone, who was the Badbh in her guise as sovereignty goddess, because he was under a *geis* or taboo whereby he could not receive the company of a single woman after sunset. So, even if the woman was an ancient hag, there appears to have been the peril of contamination of male by female, a sexual danger which may - like the myth of Samson and Delilah - be associated with male weakness brought about by women. The converse of this may in fact be present in the Welsh Tale of Math (see Chapter 3). The concetrated, undissipated sexual energy of the virgin may be another manifestation of female sovereignty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And indeed, it seems that the Germanic seeresses were held in high regard:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Veleda was an unmarried woman who enjoyed wide influence over the tribe of the Bructeri. The Germans traditionally regard many of the female sex as prophetic, and indeed, by an excess of superstition, as divine. This was a case in point. Veleda's prestige stood high, for she had foretold the German successes and the extermination of the legions. (Tacitus, [Histories, 4.61][3])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;With these proposals they first calmed the Tencteri and then sent a delegation to Civilis and Veleda with gifts which obtained from them everything that the people of Cologne desired; yet the embassy was not allowed to approach Veleda herself and address her directly: they were kept from seeing her to inspire them with more respect. She herself lived in a high tower; one of her relatives, chosen for the purpose, carried to her the questions and brought back her answers, as if he were the messenger of a god. (Tacitus, [Histories, 4.65][4])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Math_fab_Mathonwy&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://archive.org/details/celticgoddessesw00aldh/page/70/mode/2up?q=virgin&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Tacitus/Histories/4C*.html#61&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Tacitus/Histories/4C*.html#65" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21738" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6477" RevisionGUID="7318ad03-a23d-4159-ae91-8ea9c196cc86" CreationDate="2020-07-20T22:22:34.053" UserId="7095" Text="Okay, this might be something:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [OAHSPE Bible][1] mentions Crite three times:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Thoth sent the following message to Looeamong, to wit:...But, behold, I labor against Gods who have the advantage of me. The Chine'ya rebel&#xD;&#xA;Gods and the Vind'yu rebel Gods, that fled from the Triune kingdoms in the east, have&#xD;&#xA;taken upon themselves names popular with mortals. Witness these names:...Pherna, alias&#xD;&#xA;Holasa, alias Iao, alias **Crite**, alias Thammus...&quot; ([pg. 958][2])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;For one year and five months the balloting lasted, and at that time the ballot rested&#xD;&#xA;nearly equally on five Gods, namely: Jove, Kriste, Mars, **Crite** and Siva. And here the&#xD;&#xA;ballot changed not for yet seven time more, which was seven weeks.&quot; (pg. 963)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The next question was, what mortal representative should be chosen? The first ballot brought out the following men: Zarasthustra, Thothma, Abraham,&#xD;&#xA;Brahma, Atys, Thammus, Joshu, Sakaya, Habron, Bali, **Crite**, Chrisna, Thulis, Witoba&#xD;&#xA;and Speio. Besides these, there were included in the ballot, forty-six other men, who&#xD;&#xA;received a small number of ballots each. (pg. 963)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As can be seen, several of the other crucified figures mentioned by Higgins and Graves also appear, such as Atys, Chrisna (Krishna), Witoba and Thulis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If the OAHSPE is reliable in any sort of way, then that means that Crite can be identified with Thammus*, AKA [Tammuz][3], who, according to Higgins, is connected to St. Thomas:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;...Is there not great room for suspicion, that this Thomas was the Tamus for whom the women of Judea&#xD;&#xA;wept, and that his followers were not Christians, but Crhj-tians, followers of him of whom the Erythræan&#xD;&#xA;Sibyl prophesied?...The Portuguese finding these Christians worshiping and bewailing a Thomas or Tamuz—put to death at the&#xD;&#xA;vernal equinox, and after three days rising again to life, as I shall shew in a future book—to whom were&#xD;&#xA;attributed all things which were attributed to Jesus Christ, settled it instantly, that there was a mistake&#xD;&#xA;ignorantly made between St. Thomas (who must have gone to India as they believed) and Jesus Christ—a&#xD;&#xA;mistake made before by Jerom...&quot; ([pg. 666][4])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;*That Thammus and Crite appear as separate entities in the third section appears to be because that section refers to mortals, many of whom are named after gods. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oahspe:_A_New_Bible&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.angelfire.com/realm3/oahspedownload/OAHSPE.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumuzid&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.baytagoodah.com/uploads/9/5/6/0/95600058/godfrey_higgins_-_anacalypsis.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21739" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6478" RevisionGUID="ea67be80-e990-4229-b20a-bb5ab0141293" CreationDate="2020-07-21T03:33:05.723" UserId="7100" Text="Homer uses the trope of clouds of mist rendering a god or person unseen (even to people right next to them, in the daylight) a number of times throughout the *Iliad* and *Odyssey*. For example, in Iliad Book XXI Apollo shrouds a Trojan fighter with a &quot;veil of clouds&quot; in order to permit their escape; in Odysset Book VII Minerva hides Odysseus with a &quot;thick cloud of darkness&quot; that lets him wander through the city of the Phaeacians undetected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm wondering if there are other examples of this trope (invisibility as clouds) in other mythological sources? I have a sense of having seen a similar example in Sumerian or Babylonian works, but I can't put my finger on it anymore. I've scanned all through my copy of Innana  and other online sources to no avail. Are there other examples?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21740" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6478" RevisionGUID="ea67be80-e990-4229-b20a-bb5ab0141293" CreationDate="2020-07-21T03:33:05.723" UserId="7100" Text="Examples of non-Homeric invisibility as clouds" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21741" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6478" RevisionGUID="ea67be80-e990-4229-b20a-bb5ab0141293" CreationDate="2020-07-21T03:33:05.723" UserId="7100" Text="|greek|homer|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21742" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6478" RevisionGUID="f7a7f239-5d03-471a-91e3-dd96e48f4e93" CreationDate="2020-07-21T06:02:59.827" UserId="7100" Comment="Add more examples from the Iliad" Text="Homer uses the trope of clouds of mist rendering a god or person unseen (even to people right next to them, in the daylight) a number of times throughout the *Iliad* and *Odyssey*. For example, in the Iliad this is performed by Minerva in Book I, Venus in Book III, and at least four different gods in Book V. Minerva does it again in Odyssey Book VII, when she hides Odysseus with a &quot;thick cloud of darkness&quot; that lets him wander through the city of the Phaeacians undetected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm wondering if there are other examples of this trope (invisibility as clouds) in other mythological sources? I have a sense of having seen a similar example in Sumerian or Babylonian works, but I can't put my finger on it anymore. I've scanned all through my copy of Innana  and other online sources to no avail. Are there other examples?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21743" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6477" RevisionGUID="5f760040-32f0-4c6d-a14d-d57f69cf1658" CreationDate="2020-07-21T07:06:20.220" UserId="7095" Comment="added 2769 characters in body" Text="Okay, this might be something:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [OAHSPE Bible][1] mentions Crite three times:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Thoth sent the following message to Looeamong, to wit:...But, behold, I labor against Gods who have the advantage of me. The Chine'ya rebel&#xD;&#xA;Gods and the Vind'yu rebel Gods, that fled from the Triune kingdoms in the east, have&#xD;&#xA;taken upon themselves names popular with mortals. Witness these names:...Pherna, alias&#xD;&#xA;Holasa, alias Iao, alias **Crite**, alias Thammus...&quot; ([pg. 958][2])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;For one year and five months the balloting lasted, and at that time the ballot rested&#xD;&#xA;nearly equally on five Gods, namely: Jove, Kriste, Mars, **Crite** and Siva. And here the&#xD;&#xA;ballot changed not for yet seven time more, which was seven weeks.&quot; (pg. 963)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The next question was, what mortal representative should be chosen? The first ballot brought out the following men: Zarasthustra, Thothma, Abraham,&#xD;&#xA;Brahma, Atys, Thammus, Joshu, Sakaya, Habron, Bali, **Crite**, Chrisna, Thulis, Witoba&#xD;&#xA;and Speio. Besides these, there were included in the ballot, forty-six other men, who&#xD;&#xA;received a small number of ballots each. (pg. 963)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As can be seen, several of the other crucified figures mentioned by Higgins and Graves also appear, such as Atys, Chrisna (Krishna), Witoba and Thulis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If the OAHSPE is reliable in any sort of way, then that means that Crite can be identified with Thammus*, AKA [Tammuz][3], who, according to Higgins, is connected to St. Thomas:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;...Is there not great room for suspicion, that this Thomas was the Tamus for whom the women of Judea&#xD;&#xA;wept, and that his followers were not Christians, but Crhj-tians, followers of him of whom the Erythræan&#xD;&#xA;Sibyl prophesied?...The Portuguese finding these Christians worshiping and bewailing a Thomas or Tamuz—put to death at the&#xD;&#xA;vernal equinox, and after three days rising again to life, as I shall shew in a future book—to whom were&#xD;&#xA;attributed all things which were attributed to Jesus Christ, settled it instantly, that there was a mistake&#xD;&#xA;ignorantly made between St. Thomas (who must have gone to India as they believed) and Jesus Christ—a&#xD;&#xA;mistake made before by Jerom...&quot; ([pg. 666][4])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, Author [Acharya S][5] suggests in an [essay on Beddru][6] (also on the list) that Beddru is a printing typo and is meant to be Beddou, who she identifies with Buddha, so if Crite isn't an invention of Graves', it's possible that it's also a typo. As was pointed out somewhere on the internet, this would mean that Buddha appears more than once on the list, under different names. If the OAHSPE's interpretation holds any water, then the same can be said of Tammuz.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As it turns out, in the [second volume of Anaclypsis][7], the following is written:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;I now beg my reader to look back to Vol. I. pp. 549-553, and there he will see the account of the prophecy of Apollo of Miletus...In this country there was a place called Thamas...also...and the island of Crete, called Candia and *Icriti*. I think in Apollo Didymaeus and the oracle of the incarnate person crucified by the Chaldaeans...and Patrick to Ireland, who brought **the mythos of the God incarnate crucified by the Chaldaeans - the God Icriti or Critika, which was both *bull* and *ram* - the God alluded by Apollo of Miletus**.&quot; (pg. 117)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This Icriti**, as was written in Volume I, was crucified by Chaldean judges:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lanctatius makes the Apollo of Miletus say, &quot;He was a mortal according to the flesh; wise in miraculous works; but, being arrested by an armed force by command of the CHALDEAN judges, he suffered a death made bitter with nails and stakes.&quot; (pg. 543)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;If my reader look back to Book IX. Chap. X., he will find a prophecy by Apollo, of Miletus, of a divine incarnation crucified by Chaldean judges. There were the Chaldaeans of Colida…It was the crucifixion of Crisen and Salivahana and St. Thomas, of the Christians of Crisen.&quot; (pg. 810)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Lactantius makes the Apollo of Miletus say, &quot;He was a mortal according to the flesh; wise in miraculous works; but, being arrested by an armed force by comman of the Chaldean judges, he suffered a death made bitter with nails and stakes. In this, of course, devotees will see nothing but a Gentile prophecy of Christ...The reference to the Chaldean judges shews, that this can have no reference to the crucified saviour of our Bible.&quot;&quot; ([pg. 584][8])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;*That Thammus and Crite appear as separate entities in the third section appears to be because that section refers to mortals, many of whom are named after gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The description of &quot;Crite&quot; or Icriti in Graves' book appears to have come from the following passage:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;In this ceremony of sacrificing the lamb the devotees of India chaunt with a loud voice, *When will it be that the Saviour will be born! When will it be that the Redeemer will appear!*&quot; ([pg. 261][9])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps somewhere in one of the volumes Higgins identifies the Indian worship with the Chaldean Icriti (though both Icriti and Critika appear only in one passage), and that is why Graves attributes that passage to &quot;Crite&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oahspe:_A_New_Bible&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.angelfire.com/realm3/oahspedownload/OAHSPE.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumuzid&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.baytagoodah.com/uploads/9/5/6/0/95600058/godfrey_higgins_-_anacalypsis.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acharya_S&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://kahalyahweh.net/Articles/Beddru-Buddha.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.metaphysicspirit.com/books/Anacalypsis%20Vol.%20II.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://anacalypsisattem01higg&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://archive.org/details/anacalypsisattem01higg/page/260/mode/2up?q=redeemer" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21744" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6477" RevisionGUID="9b8f09c1-c8e1-4c00-980c-8bff5591841e" CreationDate="2020-07-21T07:41:45.853" UserId="7095" Comment="added 360 characters in body" Text="Okay, this might be something:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [OAHSPE Bible][1] mentions Crite three times:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Thoth sent the following message to Looeamong, to wit:...But, behold, I labor against Gods who have the advantage of me. The Chine'ya rebel&#xD;&#xA;Gods and the Vind'yu rebel Gods, that fled from the Triune kingdoms in the east, have&#xD;&#xA;taken upon themselves names popular with mortals. Witness these names:...Pherna, alias&#xD;&#xA;Holasa, alias Iao, alias **Crite**, alias Thammus...&quot; ([pg. 958][2])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;For one year and five months the balloting lasted, and at that time the ballot rested&#xD;&#xA;nearly equally on five Gods, namely: Jove, Kriste, Mars, **Crite** and Siva. And here the&#xD;&#xA;ballot changed not for yet seven time more, which was seven weeks.&quot; (pg. 963)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The next question was, what mortal representative should be chosen? The first ballot brought out the following men: Zarasthustra, Thothma, Abraham,&#xD;&#xA;Brahma, Atys, Thammus, Joshu, Sakaya, Habron, Bali, **Crite**, Chrisna, Thulis, Witoba&#xD;&#xA;and Speio. Besides these, there were included in the ballot, forty-six other men, who&#xD;&#xA;received a small number of ballots each. (pg. 963)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As can be seen, several of the other crucified figures mentioned by Higgins and Graves also appear, such as Atys, Chrisna (Krishna), Witoba and Thulis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If the OAHSPE is reliable in any sort of way, then that means that Crite can be identified with Thammus*, AKA [Tammuz][3], who, according to Higgins, is connected to St. Thomas:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;...Is there not great room for suspicion, that this Thomas was the Tamus for whom the women of Judea&#xD;&#xA;wept, and that his followers were not Christians, but Crhj-tians, followers of him of whom the Erythræan&#xD;&#xA;Sibyl prophesied?...The Portuguese finding these Christians worshiping and bewailing a Thomas or Tamuz—put to death at the&#xD;&#xA;vernal equinox, and after three days rising again to life, as I shall shew in a future book—to whom were&#xD;&#xA;attributed all things which were attributed to Jesus Christ, settled it instantly, that there was a mistake&#xD;&#xA;ignorantly made between St. Thomas (who must have gone to India as they believed) and Jesus Christ—a&#xD;&#xA;mistake made before by Jerom...&quot; ([pg. 666][4])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, Author [Acharya S][5] suggests in an [essay on Beddru][6] (also on the list) that Beddru is a printing typo and is meant to be Beddou, who she identifies with Buddha, so if Crite isn't an invention of Graves', it's possible that it's also a typo. As was pointed out somewhere on the internet, this would mean that Buddha appears more than once on the list, under different names. If the OAHSPE's interpretation holds any water, then the same can be said of Tammuz.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As it turns out, in the [second volume of Anaclypsis][7], the following is written:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;I now beg my reader to look back to Vol. I. pp. 549-553, and there he will see the account of the prophecy of Apollo of Miletus...In this country there was a place called Thamas...also...and the island of Crete, called Candia and *Icriti*. I think in Apollo Didymaeus and the oracle of the incarnate person crucified by the Chaldaeans...and Patrick to Ireland, who brought **the mythos of the God incarnate crucified by the Chaldaeans - the God Icriti or Critika, which was both *bull* and *ram* - the God alluded by Apollo of Miletus**.&quot; (pg. 117)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This Icriti**, as was written in Volume I, was crucified by Chaldean judges:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lanctatius makes the Apollo of Miletus say, &quot;He was a mortal according to the flesh; wise in miraculous works; but, being arrested by an armed force by command of the CHALDEAN judges, he suffered a death made bitter with nails and stakes.&quot; (pg. 543)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;If my reader look back to Book IX. Chap. X., he will find a prophecy by Apollo, of Miletus, of a divine incarnation crucified by Chaldean judges. There were the Chaldaeans of Colida…It was the crucifixion of Crisen and Salivahana and St. Thomas, of the Christians of Crisen.&quot; (pg. 810)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Lactantius makes the Apollo of Miletus say, &quot;He was a mortal according to the flesh; wise in miraculous works; but, being arrested by an armed force by comman of the Chaldean judges, he suffered a death made bitter with nails and stakes. In this, of course, devotees will see nothing but a Gentile prophecy of Christ...The reference to the Chaldean judges shews, that this can have no reference to the crucified saviour of our Bible.&quot;&quot; ([pg. 584][8])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;*That Thammus and Crite appear as separate entities in the third section appears to be because that section refers to mortals, many of whom are named after gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The description of &quot;Crite&quot; or Icriti in Graves' book appears to have come from the following passage:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;In this ceremony of sacrificing the lamb the devotees of India chaunt with a loud voice, *When will it be that the Saviour will be born! When will it be that the Redeemer will appear!*&quot; ([pg. 261][9])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps somewhere in one of the volumes Higgins identifies the Indian worship with the Chaldean Icriti (though both Icriti and Critika appear only in one passage), and that is why Graves attributes that passage to &quot;Crite&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note on Icriti and Crite: In Hebrew, &quot;Ikriti&quot; means &quot;of Crete&quot; (for example, [Rabbi Shmaryah HaIkriti][10], who, interestingly enough, was put to death on the assertion that he had claimed he was the Jewish messiah). Crite is of course very similar to Crete, and Higgins was known to have mixed and matched multiple languages and multiple varying spellings of different words, so perhaps the typo came from here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oahspe:_A_New_Bible&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.angelfire.com/realm3/oahspedownload/OAHSPE.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumuzid&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.baytagoodah.com/uploads/9/5/6/0/95600058/godfrey_higgins_-_anacalypsis.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acharya_S&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://kahalyahweh.net/Articles/Beddru-Buddha.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.metaphysicspirit.com/books/Anacalypsis%20Vol.%20II.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://anacalypsisattem01higg&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://archive.org/details/anacalypsisattem01higg/page/260/mode/2up?q=redeemer&#xD;&#xA;[10]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shemariah_of_Negropont" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21745" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6477" RevisionGUID="aad41be5-6d9d-4ad1-92cb-64bb1df320b1" CreationDate="2020-07-21T07:54:03.830" UserId="7095" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="Okay, this might be something:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [OAHSPE Bible][1] mentions Crite three times:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Thoth sent the following message to Looeamong, to wit:...But, behold, I labor against Gods who have the advantage of me. The Chine'ya rebel&#xD;&#xA;Gods and the Vind'yu rebel Gods, that fled from the Triune kingdoms in the east, have&#xD;&#xA;taken upon themselves names popular with mortals. Witness these names:...Pherna, alias&#xD;&#xA;Holasa, alias Iao, alias **Crite**, alias Thammus...&quot; ([pg. 958][2])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;For one year and five months the balloting lasted, and at that time the ballot rested&#xD;&#xA;nearly equally on five Gods, namely: Jove, Kriste, Mars, **Crite** and Siva. And here the&#xD;&#xA;ballot changed not for yet seven time more, which was seven weeks.&quot; (pg. 963)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The next question was, what mortal representative should be chosen? The first ballot brought out the following men: Zarasthustra, Thothma, Abraham,&#xD;&#xA;Brahma, Atys, Thammus, Joshu, Sakaya, Habron, Bali, **Crite**, Chrisna, Thulis, Witoba&#xD;&#xA;and Speio. Besides these, there were included in the ballot, forty-six other men, who&#xD;&#xA;received a small number of ballots each. (pg. 963)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As can be seen, several of the other crucified figures mentioned by Higgins and Graves also appear, such as Atys, Chrisna (Krishna), Witoba and Thulis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If the OAHSPE is reliable in any sort of way, then that means that Crite can be identified with Thammus*, AKA [Tammuz][3], who, according to Higgins, is connected to St. Thomas:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;...Is there not great room for suspicion, that this Thomas was the Tamus for whom the women of Judea&#xD;&#xA;wept, and that his followers were not Christians, but Crhj-tians, followers of him of whom the Erythræan&#xD;&#xA;Sibyl prophesied?...The Portuguese finding these Christians worshiping and bewailing a Thomas or Tamuz—put to death at the&#xD;&#xA;vernal equinox, and after three days rising again to life, as I shall shew in a future book—to whom were&#xD;&#xA;attributed all things which were attributed to Jesus Christ, settled it instantly, that there was a mistake&#xD;&#xA;ignorantly made between St. Thomas (who must have gone to India as they believed) and Jesus Christ—a&#xD;&#xA;mistake made before by Jerom...&quot; ([pg. 666][4])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, Author [Acharya S][5] suggests in an [essay on Beddru][6] (also on the list) that Beddru is a printing typo and is meant to be Beddou, who she identifies with Buddha, so if Crite isn't an invention of Graves', it's possible that it's also a typo. As was pointed out somewhere on the internet, this would mean that Buddha appears more than once on the list, under different names. If the OAHSPE's interpretation holds any water, then the same can be said of Tammuz.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As it turns out, in the [second volume of Anaclypsis][7], the following is written:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;I now beg my reader to look back to Vol. I. pp. 549-553, and there he will see the account of the prophecy of Apollo of Miletus...In this country there was a place called Thamas...also...and the island of Crete, called Candia and *Icriti*. I think in Apollo Didymaeus and the oracle of the incarnate person crucified by the Chaldaeans...and Patrick to Ireland, who brought **the mythos of the God incarnate crucified by the Chaldaeans - the God Icriti or Critika, which was both *bull* and *ram* - the God alluded by Apollo of Miletus**.&quot; (pg. 117)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This Icriti**, as was written in Volume I, was crucified by Chaldean judges:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lanctatius makes the Apollo of Miletus say, &quot;He was a mortal according to the flesh; wise in miraculous works; but, being arrested by an armed force by command of the CHALDEAN judges, he suffered a death made bitter with nails and stakes.&quot; (pg. 543)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;If my reader look back to Book IX. Chap. X., he will find a prophecy by Apollo, of Miletus, of a divine incarnation crucified by Chaldean judges. There were the Chaldaeans of Colida…It was the crucifixion of Crisen and Salivahana and St. Thomas, of the Christians of Crisen.&quot; (pg. 810)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Lactantius makes the Apollo of Miletus say, &quot;He was a mortal according to the flesh; wise in miraculous works; but, being arrested by an armed force by comman of the Chaldean judges, he suffered a death made bitter with nails and stakes. In this, of course, devotees will see nothing but a Gentile prophecy of Christ...The reference to the Chaldean judges shews, that this can have no reference to the crucified saviour of our Bible.&quot;&quot; ([pg. 584][8])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;*That Thammus and Crite appear as separate entities in the third section appears to be because that section refers to mortals, many of whom are named after gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The description of &quot;Crite&quot; or Icriti in Graves' book appears to have come from the following passage:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;In this ceremony of sacrificing the lamb the devotees of India chant with a loud voice, *When will it be that the Saviour will be born! When will it be that the Redeemer will appear!*&quot; ([pg. 261][9])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps somewhere in one of the volumes Higgins identifies the Indian worship with the Chaldean Icriti (though both Icriti and Critika appear only in one passage), and that is why Graves attributes that passage to &quot;Crite&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note on Icriti and Crite: In Hebrew, &quot;Ikriti&quot; means &quot;of Crete&quot; (for example, [Rabbi Shmaryah HaIkriti][10], who, interestingly enough, was put to death on the assertion that he had claimed he was the Jewish messiah). Crite is of course very similar to Crete, and Higgins was known to have mixed and matched multiple languages and multiple varying spellings of different words, so perhaps the typo came from here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oahspe:_A_New_Bible&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.angelfire.com/realm3/oahspedownload/OAHSPE.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumuzid&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.baytagoodah.com/uploads/9/5/6/0/95600058/godfrey_higgins_-_anacalypsis.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acharya_S&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://kahalyahweh.net/Articles/Beddru-Buddha.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.metaphysicspirit.com/books/Anacalypsis%20Vol.%20II.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://anacalypsisattem01higg&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://archive.org/details/anacalypsisattem01higg/page/260/mode/2up?q=redeemer&#xD;&#xA;[10]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shemariah_of_Negropont" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21746" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6477" RevisionGUID="bd68389d-9cff-434e-a634-263030b59e3f" CreationDate="2020-07-21T11:53:42.663" UserId="7095" Comment="added 101 characters in body" Text="Okay, this might be something:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [OAHSPE Bible][1] mentions Crite three times:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Thoth sent the following message to Looeamong, to wit:...But, behold, I labor against Gods who have the advantage of me. The Chine'ya rebel&#xD;&#xA;Gods and the Vind'yu rebel Gods, that fled from the Triune kingdoms in the east, have&#xD;&#xA;taken upon themselves names popular with mortals. Witness these names:...Pherna, alias&#xD;&#xA;Holasa, alias Iao, alias **Crite**, alias Thammus...&quot; ([pg. 958][2])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;For one year and five months the balloting lasted, and at that time the ballot rested&#xD;&#xA;nearly equally on five Gods, namely: Jove, Kriste, Mars, **Crite** and Siva. And here the&#xD;&#xA;ballot changed not for yet seven time more, which was seven weeks.&quot; (pg. 963)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The next question was, what mortal representative should be chosen? The first ballot brought out the following men: Zarasthustra, Thothma, Abraham,&#xD;&#xA;Brahma, Atys, Thammus, Joshu, Sakaya, Habron, Bali, **Crite**, Chrisna, Thulis, Witoba&#xD;&#xA;and Speio. Besides these, there were included in the ballot, forty-six other men, who&#xD;&#xA;received a small number of ballots each. (pg. 963)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As can be seen, several of the other crucified figures mentioned by Higgins and Graves also appear, such as Atys, Chrisna (Krishna), Witoba and Thulis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If the OAHSPE is reliable in any sort of way, then that means that Crite can be identified with Thammus*, AKA [Tammuz][3], who, according to Higgins, is connected to St. Thomas:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;...Is there not great room for suspicion, that this Thomas was the Tamus for whom the women of Judea&#xD;&#xA;wept, and that his followers were not Christians, but Crhj-tians, followers of him of whom the Erythræan&#xD;&#xA;Sibyl prophesied?...The Portuguese finding these Christians worshiping and bewailing a Thomas or Tamuz—put to death at the&#xD;&#xA;vernal equinox, and after three days rising again to life, as I shall shew in a future book—to whom were&#xD;&#xA;attributed all things which were attributed to Jesus Christ, settled it instantly, that there was a mistake&#xD;&#xA;ignorantly made between St. Thomas (who must have gone to India as they believed) and Jesus Christ—a&#xD;&#xA;mistake made before by Jerom...&quot; ([pg. 666][4])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, Author [Acharya S][5] suggests in an [essay on Beddru][6] (also on the list) that Beddru is a printing typo and is meant to be Beddou, who she identifies with Buddha, so if Crite isn't an invention of Graves', it's possible that it's also a typo. As was pointed out somewhere on the internet, this would mean that Buddha appears more than once on the list, under different names. If the OAHSPE's interpretation holds any water, then the same can be said of Tammuz.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As it turns out, in the [second volume of Anaclypsis][7], the following is written:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;I now beg my reader to look back to Vol. I. pp. 549-553, and there he will see the account of the prophecy of Apollo of Miletus...In this country there was a place called Thamas...also...and the island of Crete, called Candia and *Icriti*. I think in Apollo Didymaeus and the oracle of the incarnate person crucified by the Chaldaeans...and Patrick to Ireland, who brought **the mythos of the God incarnate crucified by the Chaldaeans - the God Icriti or Critika, which was both *bull* and *ram* - the God alluded by Apollo of Miletus**.&quot; (pg. 117)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This Icriti**, as was written in Volume I, was crucified by Chaldean judges:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lanctatius makes the Apollo of Miletus say, &quot;He was a mortal according to the flesh; wise in miraculous works; but, being arrested by an armed force by command of the CHALDEAN judges, he suffered a death made bitter with nails and stakes.&quot; (pg. 543)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;If my reader look back to Book IX. Chap. X., he will find a prophecy by Apollo, of Miletus, of a divine incarnation crucified by Chaldean judges. There were the Chaldaeans of Colida…It was the crucifixion of Crisen and Salivahana and St. Thomas, of the Christians of Crisen.&quot; (pg. 810)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Lactantius makes the Apollo of Miletus say, &quot;He was a mortal according to the flesh; wise in miraculous works; but, being arrested by an armed force by comman of the Chaldean judges, he suffered a death made bitter with nails and stakes. In this, of course, devotees will see nothing but a Gentile prophecy of Christ...The reference to the Chaldean judges shews, that this can have no reference to the crucified saviour of our Bible.&quot;&quot; ([pg. 584][8])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;*That Thammus and Crite appear as separate entities in the third section appears to be because that section refers to mortals, many of whom are named after gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The description of &quot;Crite&quot; or Icriti in Graves' book appears to have come from the following passage:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;In this ceremony of sacrificing the lamb the devotees of India chant with a loud voice, *When will it be that the Saviour will be born! When will it be that the Redeemer will appear!*&quot; ([pg. 261][9])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps somewhere in one of the volumes Higgins identifies the Indian worship with the Chaldean Icriti (though both Icriti and Critika appear only in one passage), and that is why Graves attributes that passage to &quot;Crite&quot;. Edit: In vol. II, pg. 117, in a footnote on Icriti, Higgins wrote:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Evidently the Indian Kritika.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note on Icriti and Crite: In Hebrew, &quot;Ikriti&quot; means &quot;of Crete&quot; (for example, [Rabbi Shmaryah HaIkriti][10], who, interestingly enough, was put to death on the assertion that he had claimed he was the Jewish messiah). Crite is of course very similar to Crete, and Higgins was known to have mixed and matched multiple languages and multiple varying spellings of different words, so perhaps the typo came from here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oahspe:_A_New_Bible&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.angelfire.com/realm3/oahspedownload/OAHSPE.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumuzid&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.baytagoodah.com/uploads/9/5/6/0/95600058/godfrey_higgins_-_anacalypsis.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acharya_S&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://kahalyahweh.net/Articles/Beddru-Buddha.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.metaphysicspirit.com/books/Anacalypsis%20Vol.%20II.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://anacalypsisattem01higg&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://archive.org/details/anacalypsisattem01higg/page/260/mode/2up?q=redeemer&#xD;&#xA;[10]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shemariah_of_Negropont" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21747" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6479" RevisionGUID="8f6df4fe-abb7-43f0-990b-984010180ab8" CreationDate="2020-07-21T12:32:03.237" UserId="6920" Text="There is, in fact, no evidence of druidesses existing.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Admittedly the evidence of any kind about druids is meager, and what we have is often bad -- for instance, Julius Caesar tells us they have high position in Gaul, but then in his discussion of his conquest make no mention of any druid, which seems implausible if they were that prominent -- but it does not include female members.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This very lack of evidence has led to a lot of very ill-founded speculation.  To convert Veleda -- a German seeress, and though they recorded she was unmarried, they did not record that this was connected with her position -- into a kind of order of Vestal Virgins would be a typical exaggeration, and less than some.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You may find Ronald Hutton's *The Druids* of interest." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21748" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5701" RevisionGUID="8aa146cf-15d3-4367-987b-9aca42a47378" CreationDate="2020-07-21T13:35:25.100" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="The Man&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He is supposed to be one of the earliest kings of Egypt; he also supposedly conquered the entire world, says the story, &quot;all the way to Okeanos [Oceanus].&quot; Most English translations of his name, starting sometime in the 20th century onwards, seem to favour spelling it with a transliteration closer to Θοῦλις than &quot;Thulis&quot; is; so it is much easier to find information on him (in English)—i.e., going *beyond* Kersey Graves—if one were to look up ***Thoulis***.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;His story comes from a work penned in the 500s AD, entitled the *Khronographia*, &quot;Chronicle,&quot; by a writer from Antioch named John Malalas (c. 491 – 578). Thoulis's story is part of John's history of the world, which follows the narrative supplied by the Book of Genesis in the Bible, filling in details along the way, but after the Flood it goes into the first kings of some of the world's most famous empires. When Thoulis shows up on the scene near the beginning of *Khronographia* Book 2, if my count is correct, seven (or at least six) kings have reigned over Egypt. Thoulis is thus the eighth (or seventh).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Section 3 of Book 2:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; After the death of Helios son of Hephaistos [Hephaestus], Sosis ruled&#xD;&#xA;&gt; over the Egyptians. After him reigned Osiris; Horos [Horus] reigned&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after Osiris, and Thoulis ruled after Horos. Using a large force, this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; last one conquered the whole earth, as far as Okeanos. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And as he was returning, he came to the land of Aphrika [Africa] and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; arrogantly approached an oracle. Having made a sacrifice, he beseeched&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the oracle in these words: “Tell me, Pyristhenes [Mighty with Fire],&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apseudes [Un-false {i.e. Truthful} One], Makar [Blessed One], you who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bend the aetherial course: Who, prior to my reign, had the power to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; subject all to him? And who shall have the power to do so after me?” &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The oracle responded: “First: God, and then the Word, and with them&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Spirit. All things were generated together, and they go toward the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One, whose power is aeonian. Make haste to depart from here, mortal,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and complete your worthless life.” And as soon as he left the oracle&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he fell victim to a plot by his companions and was slain in Aphrika.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Manetho prepared a record of these ancient and primaeval kingdoms of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Egyptians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Place&#xD;&#xA;---------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thoulē (Θούλη), Latinised as Thūlē, is an island which, from as early as the 300s BC, Greek and Roman writers described as being at the extreme edge of the world as far as they knew it, somewhere in northern Europe. Regarding it, Wikipedia says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In classical and medieval literature, ***ultima Thule*** (Latin&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;farthermost Thule&quot;) acquired a metaphorical meaning of any distant&#xD;&#xA;&gt; place located beyond the &quot;borders of the known world&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; By the Late Middle Ages and early modern period, the Greco-Roman Thule&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was often identified with the real Iceland or Greenland. Sometimes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Ultima Thule* was a Latin name for Greenland, when Thule was used for Iceland. By the late 19th century, however, *Thule* was frequently&#xD;&#xA;&gt; identified with Norway.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the footnotes to his translation of the *Khronographia*, Jason Colavito says that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The *Suda* (s.v. Thoulis) gives the same story but adds that the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; oracle belonged to Serapis and that the island of Thule was named for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Presumably Thoulis gives his name to this remotest of locations in order to mark the extent of his dominion, although this etymology for the island seems to be unique to the *Souda* [*Suda*], an encyclopaedia compiled some four centuries after Malalas' time. Most ancient and mediaeval writers who mention Thoule, if they discuss the origin of its name, do not seem to know about or be bothered with Thoulis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Source&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Benjamin Garstad, in his article &quot;The account of Thoulis, king of Egypt, in the *Chronographia* of John Malalas&quot; (in Vol. 107, Issue 1 of the *Byzantinische Zeitschrift* [2014]), tells us (in the Abstract, on p. 51) that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Thoulis first appears in the sixth-century chronicle of John Malalas.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It has been suggested that his name is a corruption of the material&#xD;&#xA;&gt; found in the traditional Egyptian king-lists, but it seems more likely&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that he and the narrative associated with him are a fiction of more&#xD;&#xA;&gt; recent invention. Thoulis is modeled on Sesostris, Osiris, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Alexander the Great and the narrative of his exploits alludes to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stories of these figures. The focus of this narrative is an oracle&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which deflates the king’s arrogance and obliquely prophesies the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; doctrine of the Trinity. This oracle is consistent with the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; exploitation of ostensibly genuine oracles in the pagan-Christian&#xD;&#xA;&gt; polemics of the fourth century. Indeed, the account of Thoulis as a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whole seems to have been drafted to advance the Christian position in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this debate, apparently by one Bouttios in the late fourth century.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*[Emphasis mine]*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He goes on to say (on pp. 51-52) that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In spite of the grandiose claims made for him, that he was king of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Egypt and conqueror of the world, **he first appears in the sixth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; century chronicle of John Malalas and thereafter in works ultimately&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dependent on Malalas.**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*[Emphasis mine]*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Garstad then footnotes these works as: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;the &quot;*Chronicon Paschale* (ed. L. Dindorf. Bonn 1832, I 83-84)&quot;&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;the aforementioned *Souda* entry&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;H. Erbse, Fragmente griechischer Theosophien/ Theosophorum Graecorum&#xD;&#xA;   Fragmenta (&amp; Syriac translations of parts of this)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;George Cedrenus, Compendium Historiarum&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Fragmenta Historicum Graecorum, associated with John of&#xD;&#xA;   Antioch&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The article continues (p. 52), saying that Thoulis&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; seems to be the central figure of a fiction which made a late entry into&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the legendary material on Egypt, and to have been given such eminence&#xD;&#xA;&gt; chiefly in order to make him an apt recipient for a humiliating oracle&#xD;&#xA;&gt; abasing the mightiest of human rulers and extolling the Trinity...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Specifically Thoulis appears to have been invented by one of Malalas'&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sources, Bouttios, in the later fourth century, but accepted and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; presented as perfectly historical by Malalas himself some two&#xD;&#xA;&gt; centuries later.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Based on the names which appear in the traditional ancient list of Egypt's kings, Jason Colavito thinks that Thoulis is &quot;A corruption of Typhonis, or Typhon, the Greek name for Set.&quot; For a few different reasons, including some previously quoted here, Garstad would disagree with that position, saying that Thoulis was probably invented out of whole cloth, with a name that would sound and look Egyptian to speakers and readers of Greek. In support of this argument he gives an example from Plato, who in his *Phaedrus*, has Socrates talk about a pair of Egyptian gods called Theuth and Thamus, who are a spontaneous invention of Plato for the occasion (unless &quot;Theuth&quot; is supposed to = Thoth). The initial letter theta (Θ) in the characters' names, just as in &quot;Thoulis,&quot; is here supposed to be &quot;somehow characteristic of Egyptian nomenclature.&quot;    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his article (p. 57), says Garstad:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The name of Thoulis might even have been suggested by Manetho's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; king-lists. There are at least a couple of royal names which sound&#xD;&#xA;&gt; similar: Athothis, the second king of the first dynasty, and Thouoris,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the fifth or sixth king of the nineteenth dynasty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By the end of his argument (pp. 74-75), however, Garstad is convinced that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Thoulis... did not come into being as the result of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; corruption of the names in the Egyptian king-list. He was invented as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; an addition to the number of famous world conquerors of antiquity. He&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was modeled on some of the most prominent of those conquerors,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sesostris, Osiris, and Alexander, given their traits and made to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; undergo their experiences, because he was supposed to recall their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stories and embody the prideful conqueror who vies with God. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; success of Thoulis is noted not for its own sake, but to demonstrate the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; real value of even the greatest human achievement. The significance of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the story of Thoulis lies in the humiliation of his conceit and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; insistence upon the pathetic mortality of the whole line of kings&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whose pretensions to divinity were still respected in some circles.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The unmistakably Christian terms of the oracle Thoulis receives reveal&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the tendency of the author and suggest his intent. Thoulis is a straw&#xD;&#xA;&gt; man representing pagan kings and pagan gods in the great argument&#xD;&#xA;&gt; between paganism and Christianity which marked the fourth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; century.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Describing the *Khronographia*, Jason Colavito says that its author &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;John rejects the existence of ancient kingdoms before Noah's Flood and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; therefore has relocated stories of primeval Egypt to the period after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Flood, reorganizing Manetho's list of kings to place the first&#xD;&#xA;&gt; post-diluvian monarchs before those originally ascribed to the time of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the gods. John also follows an older Christian tradition of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rationalizing pagan mythology as the deeds of human kings.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Osiris and Thoulis&#xD;&#xA;------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Neither in the *Khronographia* nor in any of the mediaeval works which come after it are Thoulis and Osiris the same entity or even identified with each other. As shown above, Thoulis succeeds Horos on the throne, who in turn had succeeded Osiris. Traditionally we know that Horos is the son of Osiris. John makes no mention of the relationship between Thoulis and his predecessors but from the flow of the narrative it looks as though we are to understand him as having begun a new dynasty, perhaps even violently ending Horos's reign.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are some parallels, however, between John's account of Thoulis on the one hand, and the story of Osiris as narrated by a more ancient Greek author, namely Diodorus Siculus, who has Osiris conquer the world with a huge army. As Garstad's article (pp. 61-62) tells us:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [B]oth Osiris and Thoulis are treacherously slain by close associates&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on their return from campaign... Osiris was killed and dismembered by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his brother Typhon. It is this detail in the story of Thoulis, that an&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Egyptian king was plotted against and killed by relatives or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; companions (ὑπὸ τῶν ἰδίων) which most clearly recalls the famous story&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Osiris. In this connection, it is not hard to find some&#xD;&#xA;&gt; significance in the precise term used of the killing of Thoulis. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; word, ἐσϕάγη, from σϕάζω, may mean simply that he was slain, but it&#xD;&#xA;&gt; can also refer to slaughtering or killing as a sacrifice. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; implications of butchery and ritual inherent in the term, especially&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in the context of an Egyptian ruler treacherously slain by his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; relations, would almost unavoidably recall the murder of Osiris. Its&#xD;&#xA;&gt; affinities with the story of Osiris, especially the historicized&#xD;&#xA;&gt; account found in Diodorus, no doubt offered a certain verisimilitude&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to the novel fiction of the account of Thoulis; it sounded like the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; typical tale of an Egyptian king of the distant past.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kersey Graves' supplementary &quot;Zulis&quot; spelling of this character's name is bewildering, and seems, at least to me, to be a sort of science-fiction/fantasy remix thereof, on the order of Socrates' Egyptian deities Theuth and Thamus. The only guess I've got for &quot;Zhule&quot; is that it might be the spelling of *Th[o]ule* (the *place*-name) in some European language other than English or Latin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarities, or the Lack Thereof&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While the parallels between Osiris and Jesus are indeed fascinatingly striking, we do know that in the Gospel accounts Jesus is never dismembered, some emphasis being made in pointing out that while his wounds were gruesome, none of his bones were ever broken. With Osiris, an important aspect of his story certainly is that his corpse gets chopped to pieces and then later reassembled before his resurrection. The canonical Bible is vague and controversial, even among Christians, as to whether Jesus descended into the Underworld after death or not. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At this point, however, Christ parallels Osiris in an especially inverse manner, in that Osiris does not, at least in the original Egyptian version of his story, ascend into heaven; he *de*scends towards or remains in the Underworld and it is there that he becomes the judge of the dead. Christ on the other hand, does in fact ascend into heaven and there is a distinct emphasis on his upcoming return to the mortal realm before an eschatological judgement of the dead. But most importantly for the purposes of Graves's book title, Osiris is never crucified! Quite poetically, he gets entombed alive, in a sense, and *this* is what *causes* his death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I point all that out in order to compare both Osiris and Jesus with Thoulis, and, as it happens, there is nothing connecting Thoulis with the other two that is as remarkable as the noted similarities between Osiris and Jesus, or as Graves would like there to be. John does not tell us that Thoulis is crucified in any fashion, nor is there any reason for us to necessarily understand his death in this way. If we are supposed to link him to Osiris, then we have seen that, as a matter of fact, this compels us even less to think of crucifixion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While Osiris, in the original Egyptian religion and mythology, is indeed some sort of &quot;salvific&quot; figure (&quot;messianic&quot; in the ancient Israelite sense, I think, is pushing it just a little bit), Thoulis definitely is not. He is quite obviously a cautionary tale of someone you do not want to be like. In the *Khronographia*, after his story, John moves on to other powerful rulers, who are clearly his own fictionalised renditions of well-known characters from ancient Greco-Egyptian myth and history. Thoulis simply goes the way of all flesh, as it were, no deification, resurrection or ascension or anything of the like on the horizon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And (w)here we are now&#xD;&#xA;--------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is really ironic that a Christian writer invented this king and his story in order to promote humility, together with a particularly specific Christian doctrine, and yet Thoulis/Thulis is now, seemingly, best known in new media as some kind of archaic competitor to Christianity (or as the founder of a sort of proto-Christianity). That is perhaps the greatest achievement of Mr Graves with regard to this personage. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;(By the way, notice that while Graves is definitely [mis]quoting {ahem!} John Gardner Wilkinson, he never actually gets his name right with his &quot;Mr. Wilkison&quot; references. Like with his &quot;Zulis&quot;, it almost feels as if it's there to deliberately throw you off the track.)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Further Reading**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;**Dr Benjamin Garstad's article**, which goes quite in depth,&#xD;&#xA;   discussing many more angles to the story and its potential origins, is available&#xD;&#xA;   on&#xD;&#xA;   [Academia.edu](https://www.academia.edu/28053343/_The_Account_of_Thoulis_king_of_Egypt_in_the_Chronographia_of_John_Malalas._Byzantinische_Zeitschrift_107_2014_51-76).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;**Jason Colavito's 2018 translation of the *Khronographia*** is&#xD;&#xA;   available on his webpage entitled [John Malalas on Ancient&#xD;&#xA;   Egypt](http://www.jasoncolavito.com/john-malalas-on-ancient-egypt.html),&#xD;&#xA;   with very helpful notes to further contextualise the situation in the&#xD;&#xA;   work's authorship as well as in the scenes taking place in the&#xD;&#xA;   stories which it narrates. (It's also a fairly quick read.)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;The Australian Association for Byzantine Studies: Byzantina&#xD;&#xA;   Australiensia 4 also has ***The Chronicle of John Malalas: A&#xD;&#xA;   Translation*** by Elizabeth Jeffreys, Michael Jeffreys and Roger Scott&#xD;&#xA;   with Brian Croke, Jenny Ferber, Simon Franklin, Alan James, Douglas&#xD;&#xA;   Kelly, Ann Moffatt, Ann Nixon (Melbourne 1986) on&#xD;&#xA;   [Calamēo](https://en.calameo.com/read/000675905f2f4bf509d49).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;**The *Khronographia*** is available in the Greek, with an accompanying Latin translation thereof, on [Archive.org](https://archive.org/details/ioannismalalaec00malagoog/page/n105).&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21749" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6477" RevisionGUID="7f0be632-36b5-4ac1-8028-d4fb305a1eac" CreationDate="2020-07-21T13:39:26.303" UserId="7095" Comment="added 963 characters in body" Text="Okay, this might be something:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [OAHSPE Bible][1] mentions Crite three times:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Thoth sent the following message to Looeamong, to wit:...But, behold, I labor against Gods who have the advantage of me. The Chine'ya rebel&#xD;&#xA;Gods and the Vind'yu rebel Gods, that fled from the Triune kingdoms in the east, have&#xD;&#xA;taken upon themselves names popular with mortals. Witness these names:...Pherna, alias&#xD;&#xA;Holasa, alias Iao, alias **Crite**, alias Thammus...&quot; ([pg. 958][2])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;For one year and five months the balloting lasted, and at that time the ballot rested&#xD;&#xA;nearly equally on five Gods, namely: Jove, Kriste, Mars, **Crite** and Siva. And here the&#xD;&#xA;ballot changed not for yet seven time more, which was seven weeks.&quot; (pg. 963)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The next question was, what mortal representative should be chosen? The first ballot brought out the following men: Zarasthustra, Thothma, Abraham,&#xD;&#xA;Brahma, Atys, Thammus, Joshu, Sakaya, Habron, Bali, **Crite**, Chrisna, Thulis, Witoba&#xD;&#xA;and Speio. Besides these, there were included in the ballot, forty-six other men, who&#xD;&#xA;received a small number of ballots each. (pg. 963)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As can be seen, several of the other crucified figures mentioned by Higgins and Graves also appear, such as Atys, Chrisna (Krishna), Witoba and Thulis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If the OAHSPE is reliable in any sort of way, then that means that Crite can be identified with Thammus*, AKA [Tammuz][3], who, according to Higgins, is connected to St. Thomas:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;...Is there not great room for suspicion, that this Thomas was the Tamus for whom the women of Judea&#xD;&#xA;wept, and that his followers were not Christians, but Crhj-tians, followers of him of whom the Erythræan&#xD;&#xA;Sibyl prophesied?...The Portuguese finding these Christians worshiping and bewailing a Thomas or Tamuz—put to death at the&#xD;&#xA;vernal equinox, and after three days rising again to life, as I shall shew in a future book—to whom were&#xD;&#xA;attributed all things which were attributed to Jesus Christ, settled it instantly, that there was a mistake&#xD;&#xA;ignorantly made between St. Thomas (who must have gone to India as they believed) and Jesus Christ—a&#xD;&#xA;mistake made before by Jerom...&quot; ([pg. 666][4])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, Author [Acharya S][5] suggests in an [essay on Beddru][6] (also on the list) that Beddru is a printing typo and is meant to be Beddou, who she identifies with Buddha, so if Crite isn't an invention of Graves', it's possible that it's also a typo. As was pointed out somewhere on the internet, this would mean that Buddha appears more than once on the list, under different names. If the OAHSPE's interpretation holds any water, then the same can be said of Tammuz.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As it turns out, in the [second volume of Anaclypsis][7], the following is written:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;I now beg my reader to look back to Vol. I. pp. 549-553, and there he will see the account of the prophecy of Apollo of Miletus...In this country there was a place called Thamas...also...and the island of Crete, called Candia and *Icriti*. I think in Apollo Didymaeus and the oracle of the incarnate person crucified by the Chaldaeans...and Patrick to Ireland, who brought **the mythos of the God incarnate crucified by the Chaldaeans - the God Icriti or Critika, which was both *bull* and *ram* - the God alluded by Apollo of Miletus**.&quot; (pg. 117)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This Icriti**, as was written in Volume I, was crucified by Chaldean judges:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lanctatius makes the Apollo of Miletus say, &quot;He was a mortal according to the flesh; wise in miraculous works; but, being arrested by an armed force by command of the CHALDEAN judges, he suffered a death made bitter with nails and stakes.&quot; (pg. 543)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;If my reader look back to Book IX. Chap. X., he will find a prophecy by Apollo, of Miletus, of a divine incarnation crucified by Chaldean judges. There were the Chaldaeans of Colida…It was the crucifixion of Crisen and Salivahana and St. Thomas, of the Christians of Crisen.&quot; (pg. 810)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Lactantius makes the Apollo of Miletus say, &quot;He was a mortal according to the flesh; wise in miraculous works; but, being arrested by an armed force by comman of the Chaldean judges, he suffered a death made bitter with nails and stakes. In this, of course, devotees will see nothing but a Gentile prophecy of Christ...The reference to the Chaldean judges shews, that this can have no reference to the crucified saviour of our Bible.&quot;&quot; ([pg. 584][8])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;*That Thammus and Crite appear as separate entities in the third section appears to be because that section refers to mortals, many of whom are named after gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The description of &quot;Crite&quot; or Icriti in Graves' book appears to have come from the following passage:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;In this ceremony of sacrificing the lamb the devotees of India chant with a loud voice, *When will it be that the Saviour will be born! When will it be that the Redeemer will appear!*&quot; ([pg. 261][9])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps somewhere in one of the volumes Higgins identifies the Indian worship with the Chaldean Icriti (though both Icriti and Critika appear only in one passage), and that is why Graves attributes that passage to &quot;Crite&quot;. Edit: In vol. II, pg. 117, in a footnote on Icriti, Higgins wrote:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Evidently the Indian Kritika.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note on Icriti and Crite: In Hebrew, &quot;Ikriti&quot; means &quot;of Crete&quot; (for example, [Rabbi Shmaryah HaIkriti][10], who, interestingly enough, was put to death on the assertion that he had claimed he was the Jewish messiah). Crite is of course very similar to Crete, and Higgins was known to have mixed and matched multiple languages and multiple varying spellings of different words, so perhaps the typo came from here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note on Kritika in India and Crete: [Krittika][11] is the Indian name for the Pleione star cluster and is also the name of the female goddess-personification of the cluster. [Kritika][12] is the name of Cretan music.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note on &quot;the bull and the ram&quot; - this appears to be a reference to vol. I, pg. 231:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;But the word Ram, ראם *ram* in Hebrew [actually pronounced Re'em] means both Bull and Ram. This arose, I suspect, from the Indian incarnation of Rama, who preceeded Cristas. In fact he was the incarnation of the Neros when the Sun left Taurus and entered Aries; thus he was incarnate in the signs of both the Bull and the Ram.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Re'em in Hebrew refers to both the modern animal the Oryx and the mythic [Re'em][13] creature, which is widely believed to have been some sort of wild bull. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oahspe:_A_New_Bible&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.angelfire.com/realm3/oahspedownload/OAHSPE.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumuzid&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.baytagoodah.com/uploads/9/5/6/0/95600058/godfrey_higgins_-_anacalypsis.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acharya_S&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://kahalyahweh.net/Articles/Beddru-Buddha.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.metaphysicspirit.com/books/Anacalypsis%20Vol.%20II.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://anacalypsisattem01higg&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://archive.org/details/anacalypsisattem01higg/page/260/mode/2up?q=redeemer&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shemariah_of_Negropont&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%E1%B9%9Bttik%C4%81&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_Crete&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re%27em" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21751" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5005" RevisionGUID="1b6a93b6-af2a-4c51-aa23-3841632ddacb" CreationDate="2020-07-21T16:56:33.507" UserId="3307" Comment="edited tags" Text="|celtic|maiden-goddesses|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21752" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6480" RevisionGUID="1e9b768d-8879-42fc-bf1d-ba46d46919cf" CreationDate="2020-07-21T16:59:30.883" UserId="3307" Text="&lt;sup&gt;This is a follow-up question to: &quot;[Why did druidesses vow perpetual virginity?][1]&quot;&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What was the Aztec religion's view of virginity? Did they, like the Romans with their vestal virgins, view virginity as a sort of stored-up power upon which their civilization depended? Or did they think the survival of their civilization depended primarily upon human sacrifice?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/5005/3307" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21753" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6480" RevisionGUID="1e9b768d-8879-42fc-bf1d-ba46d46919cf" CreationDate="2020-07-21T16:59:30.883" UserId="3307" Text="What was the Aztec religion's view of virginity?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21754" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6480" RevisionGUID="1e9b768d-8879-42fc-bf1d-ba46d46919cf" CreationDate="2020-07-21T16:59:30.883" UserId="3307" Text="|sacrifice|aztec|maiden-goddesses|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21755" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6477" RevisionGUID="a9d2a647-36ff-4174-b4bd-ffeab1aab198" CreationDate="2020-07-21T18:41:04.547" UserId="7095" Comment="added 246 characters in body" Text="Okay, this might be something:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [OAHSPE Bible][1] mentions Crite three times:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Thoth sent the following message to Looeamong, to wit:...But, behold, I labor against Gods who have the advantage of me. The Chine'ya rebel&#xD;&#xA;Gods and the Vind'yu rebel Gods, that fled from the Triune kingdoms in the east, have&#xD;&#xA;taken upon themselves names popular with mortals. Witness these names:...Pherna, alias&#xD;&#xA;Holasa, alias Iao, alias **Crite**, alias Thammus...&quot; ([pg. 958][2])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;For one year and five months the balloting lasted, and at that time the ballot rested&#xD;&#xA;nearly equally on five Gods, namely: Jove, Kriste, Mars, **Crite** and Siva. And here the&#xD;&#xA;ballot changed not for yet seven time more, which was seven weeks.&quot; (pg. 963)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The next question was, what mortal representative should be chosen? The first ballot brought out the following men: Zarasthustra, Thothma, Abraham,&#xD;&#xA;Brahma, Atys, Thammus, Joshu, Sakaya, Habron, Bali, **Crite**, Chrisna, Thulis, Witoba&#xD;&#xA;and Speio. Besides these, there were included in the ballot, forty-six other men, who&#xD;&#xA;received a small number of ballots each. (pg. 963)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As can be seen, several of the other crucified figures mentioned by Higgins and Graves also appear, such as Atys, Chrisna (Krishna), Witoba and Thulis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If the OAHSPE is reliable in any sort of way, then that means that Crite can be identified with Thammus&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;, AKA [Tammuz][3], who, according to Higgins, is connected to St. Thomas:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;...Is there not great room for suspicion, that this Thomas was the Tamus for whom the women of Judea&#xD;&#xA;wept, and that his followers were not Christians, but Crhj-tians, followers of him of whom the Erythræan&#xD;&#xA;Sibyl prophesied?...The Portuguese finding these Christians worshiping and bewailing a Thomas or Tamuz—put to death at the&#xD;&#xA;vernal equinox, and after three days rising again to life, as I shall shew in a future book—to whom were&#xD;&#xA;attributed all things which were attributed to Jesus Christ, settled it instantly, that there was a mistake&#xD;&#xA;ignorantly made between St. Thomas (who must have gone to India as they believed) and Jesus Christ—a&#xD;&#xA;mistake made before by Jerom...&quot; ([pg. 666][4])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, Author [Acharya S][5] suggests in an [essay on Beddru][6] (also on the list) that Beddru is a printing typo and is meant to be Beddou, who she identifies with Buddha, so if Crite isn't an invention of Graves', it's possible that it's also a typo. As was pointed out somewhere on the internet, this would mean that Buddha appears more than once on the list, under different names. If the OAHSPE's interpretation holds any water, then the same can be said of Tammuz.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As it turns out, in the [second volume of Anaclypsis][7], the following is written:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;I now beg my reader to look back to Vol. I. pp. 549-553, and there he will see the account of the prophecy of Apollo of Miletus...In this country there was a place called Thamas...also...and the island of Crete, called Candia and *Icriti*. I think in Apollo Didymaeus and the oracle of the incarnate person crucified by the Chaldaeans...and Patrick to Ireland, who brought **the mythos of the God incarnate crucified by the Chaldaeans - the God Icriti or Critika&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;, which was both *bull* and *ram*&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; - the God alluded by Apollo of Miletus**.&quot; (pg. 117)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This Icriti&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt;, as was written in Volume I, was crucified by Chaldean judges:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lanctatius makes the Apollo of Miletus say, &quot;He was a mortal according to the flesh; wise in miraculous works; but, being arrested by an armed force by command of the CHALDEAN judges, he suffered a death made bitter with nails and stakes.&quot; (pg. 543)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;If my reader look back to Book IX. Chap. X., he will find a prophecy by Apollo, of Miletus, of a divine incarnation crucified by Chaldean judges. There were the Chaldaeans of Colida…It was the crucifixion of Crisen and Salivahana and St. Thomas, of the Christians of Crisen.&quot; (pg. 810)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Lactantius makes the Apollo of Miletus say, &quot;He was a mortal according to the flesh; wise in miraculous works; but, being arrested by an armed force by comman of the Chaldean judges, he suffered a death made bitter with nails and stakes. In this, of course, devotees will see nothing but a Gentile prophecy of Christ...The reference to the Chaldean judges shews, that this can have no reference to the crucified saviour of our Bible.&quot;&quot; ([pg. 584][8])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;That Thammus and Crite appear as separate entities in the third section appears to be because that section refers to mortals, many of whom are named after gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;On &quot;the bull and the ram&quot; - this appears to be a reference to vol. I, pg. 231:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;But the word Ram, ראם *ram* in Hebrew [actually pronounced Re'em] means both Bull and Ram. This arose, I suspect, from the Indian incarnation of Rama, who preceeded Cristas. In fact he was the incarnation of the Neros when the Sun left Taurus and entered Aries; thus he was incarnate in the signs of both the Bull and the Ram.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Re'em in Hebrew refers to both the modern animal the Oryx and the mythic [Re'em][13] creature, which is widely believed to have been some sort of wild bull.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;On Icriti and Crite: In Hebrew, &quot;Ikriti&quot; means &quot;of Crete&quot; (for example, [Rabbi Shmaryah HaIkriti][10], who, coincidentally enough, was put to death on the assertion that he had claimed he was the Jewish messiah). Crite is of course very similar to Crete, and Higgins was known to have mixed and matched multiple languages and multiple varying spellings of different words, so perhaps the typo came from here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt;The description of &quot;Crite&quot; or Icriti in Graves' book appears to have come from the following passage:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;In this ceremony of sacrificing the lamb the devotees of India chant with a loud voice, *When will it be that the Saviour will be born! When will it be that the Redeemer will appear!*&quot; ([pg. 261][9])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In vol. II, pg. 117, in a footnote on Icriti, Higgins wrote:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Evidently the Indian Kritika&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt;.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meaning that Higgins identified the Indian savior with the Cretan/Chaldean Icriti, which explains &quot;Crite's&quot; description in Graves' book.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt;On Kritika in India and Crete: [Krittika][11] is the Indian name for the Pleione star cluster and is also the name of the female goddess-personification of the cluster. [Kritika][12] is the name of a type of traditional Cretan music.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;In short, &quot;Crite&quot; appears to have been a Cretan deity or deity-incarnate who was prophesied by Apollo of Miletus to being crucified by Chaldean judges, which supposedly is exactly what happened.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oahspe:_A_New_Bible&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.angelfire.com/realm3/oahspedownload/OAHSPE.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumuzid&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.baytagoodah.com/uploads/9/5/6/0/95600058/godfrey_higgins_-_anacalypsis.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acharya_S&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://kahalyahweh.net/Articles/Beddru-Buddha.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.metaphysicspirit.com/books/Anacalypsis%20Vol.%20II.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://anacalypsisattem01higg&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://archive.org/details/anacalypsisattem01higg/page/260/mode/2up?q=redeemer&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shemariah_of_Negropont&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%E1%B9%9Bttik%C4%81&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_Crete&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re%27em" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21756" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6477" RevisionGUID="1ad7674a-0559-4338-8b89-62f47f31c0fe" CreationDate="2020-07-22T06:46:46.413" UserId="7095" Comment="added 246 characters in body" Text="Okay, this might be something:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [OAHSPE Bible][1] mentions Crite three times:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Thoth sent the following message to Looeamong, to wit:...But, behold, I labor against Gods who have the advantage of me. The Chine'ya rebel&#xD;&#xA;Gods and the Vind'yu rebel Gods, that fled from the Triune kingdoms in the east, have&#xD;&#xA;taken upon themselves names popular with mortals. Witness these names:...Pherna, alias&#xD;&#xA;Holasa, alias Iao, alias **Crite**, alias Thammus...&quot; ([pg. 958][2])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;For one year and five months the balloting lasted, and at that time the ballot rested&#xD;&#xA;nearly equally on five Gods, namely: Jove, Kriste, Mars, **Crite** and Siva. And here the&#xD;&#xA;ballot changed not for yet seven time more, which was seven weeks.&quot; (pg. 963)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The next question was, what mortal representative should be chosen? The first ballot brought out the following men: Zarasthustra, Thothma, Abraham,&#xD;&#xA;Brahma, Atys, Thammus, Joshu, Sakaya, Habron, Bali, **Crite**, Chrisna, Thulis, Witoba&#xD;&#xA;and Speio. Besides these, there were included in the ballot, forty-six other men, who&#xD;&#xA;received a small number of ballots each. (pg. 963)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As can be seen, several of the other crucified figures mentioned by Higgins and Graves also appear, such as Atys, Chrisna (Krishna), Witoba and Thulis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If the OAHSPE is reliable in any sort of way, then that means that Crite can be identified with Thammus&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;, AKA [Tammuz][3], who, according to Higgins, is connected to St. Thomas:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;...Is there not great room for suspicion, that this Thomas was the Tamus for whom the women of Judea&#xD;&#xA;wept, and that his followers were not Christians, but Crhj-tians, followers of him of whom the Erythræan&#xD;&#xA;Sibyl prophesied?...The Portuguese finding these Christians worshiping and bewailing a Thomas or Tamuz—put to death at the&#xD;&#xA;vernal equinox, and after three days rising again to life, as I shall shew in a future book—to whom were&#xD;&#xA;attributed all things which were attributed to Jesus Christ, settled it instantly, that there was a mistake&#xD;&#xA;ignorantly made between St. Thomas (who must have gone to India as they believed) and Jesus Christ—a&#xD;&#xA;mistake made before by Jerom...&quot; ([pg. 666][4])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, author [Acharya S][5] suggests in an [essay on Beddru][6] (also on the list) that Beddru is a printing typo and is meant to be Beddou, who she identifies with Buddha, so if Crite isn't an invention of Graves', it's possible that it's also a typo. As was pointed out somewhere on the internet, this would mean that Buddha appears more than once on the list, under different names. If the OAHSPE's interpretation holds any water, then the same can be said of Tammuz.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As it turns out, in the [second volume of Anaclypsis][7], the following is written:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;I now beg my reader to look back to Vol. I. pp. 549-553, and there he will see the account of the prophecy of [Apollo of Miletus][8]...In this country there was a place called Thamas...also...and the island of Crete, called Candia and *Icriti*. I think in Apollo Didymaeus and the oracle of the incarnate person crucified by the Chaldaeans...and Patrick to Ireland, who brought **the mythos of the God incarnate crucified by the Chaldaeans - the God Icriti or Critika&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;, which was both *bull* and *ram*&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; - the God alluded by Apollo of Miletus**.&quot; (pg. 117)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This Icriti&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt;, as was written in Volume I, was crucified by Chaldean judges:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lanctatius makes the Apollo of Miletus say, &quot;He was a mortal according to the flesh; wise in miraculous works; but, being arrested by an armed force by command of the CHALDEAN judges, he suffered a death made bitter with nails and stakes.&quot;&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; (pg. 543)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;If my reader look back to Book IX. Chap. X., he will find a prophecy by Apollo, of Miletus, of a divine incarnation crucified by Chaldean judges. There were the Chaldaeans of Colida…It was the crucifixion of Crisen and Salivahana and St. Thomas, of the Christians of Crisen.&quot; (pg. 810)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Lactantius makes the Apollo of Miletus say, &quot;He was a mortal according to the flesh; wise in miraculous works; but, being arrested by an armed force by command of the Chaldean judges, he suffered a death made bitter with nails and stakes. In this, of course, devotees will see nothing but a Gentile prophecy of Christ...The reference to the Chaldean judges shews, that this can have no reference to the crucified saviour of our Bible.&quot;&quot; ([pg. 584][9])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; That Thammus and Crite appear as separate entities in the third section appears to be because that section refers to mortals, many of whom are named after gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; On Icriti and Crite: In Hebrew, &quot;Ikriti&quot; means &quot;of Crete&quot; (for example, [Rabbi Shmaryah HaIkriti][10], who, coincidentally enough, was put to death on the assertion that he had claimed he was the Jewish messiah). Crite is of course very similar to Crete, and Higgins was known to have mixed and matched multiple languages and multiple varying spellings of different words, so perhaps the typo came from here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; On &quot;the Bull and the Ram&quot; - this appears to be a reference to vol. I, pg. 231:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;But the word Ram, ראם *ram* in Hebrew [actually pronounced Re'em] means both Bull and Ram. This arose, I suspect, from the Indian incarnation of Rama, who preceeded Cristas. In fact he was the incarnation of the Neros when the Sun left Taurus and entered Aries; thus he was incarnate in the signs of both the Bull and the Ram.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Re'em in Hebrew refers to both the modern animal the [Oryx][11] and the mythic [Re'em][12] creature, which is widely believed to have been some sort of wild bull.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; The description of &quot;Crite&quot; or Icriti in Graves' book appears to have come from the following passage:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;In this ceremony of sacrificing the lamb the devotees of India chant with a loud voice, *When will it be that the Saviour will be born! When will it be that the Redeemer will appear!*&quot; ([pg. 261][13])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In vol. II, pg. 117, in a footnote on Icriti, Higgins wrote:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Evidently the Indian Kritika&lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt;.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meaning that Higgins identified the Indian savior with the Cretan/Chaldean Icriti, which explains &quot;Crite's&quot; description in Graves' book.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; [Lactantius, the Divine Institutes, Book IV][14]. Lactantius makes out this prophecy to be about Jesus, but Higgins refutes that because of the reference to Chaldean judges as the crucifiers (and not Romans). Either way, this means that the Milesian oracle spoke of an event that had happened long before (as opposed to foreseeing the future).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt; On Kritika in India and Crete: [Krittika][15] is the Indian name for the Pleione star cluster and is also the name of the female goddess-personification of the cluster. [Kritika][16] is the name of a type of traditional Cretan music.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;In short, &quot;Crite&quot; appears to have been a Cretan deity or deity-incarnate who was prophesied by Apollo of Miletus to being crucified by Chaldean judges, which supposedly is exactly what happened.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Note: According to Wikipedia, Babylonian history can be calculated through five different chronological calculations (ultra-short chronology leading up to ultra-high chronology), so it's hard to pinpoint what exactly may have happened in [1200 BCE][17], if that's even the correct date and if anything related to the crucifying of a Cretan happened at all.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;A few possibilities: 1. Collapse of Hittite power in Anatolia with the destruction of their capital Hattusa. 2. Massive migrations of people around the Mediterranean and the Middle-East. See [Sea People][18] for more information. 3. Aramaic nomads and Chaldeans become a big threat to the former Babylonian and Assyrian Empire. 4. Migration and expansion of Dorian Greeks. Destruction of Mycenaean city Pylos. 5. Final destruction of the major [Mycenian][19] city excavated at Iklaina.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;As can be seen, circa 1200 BCE there were many great upheavals both in the area of Crete and its people (Mycenaeans, Sea People, etc) and in Babylon. It's possible that in order to reach new land, the displaced Cretans traveled through Babylon and were attacked by the Chaldeans, but this is just a guess.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oahspe:_A_New_Bible&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.angelfire.com/realm3/oahspedownload/OAHSPE.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumuzid&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.baytagoodah.com/uploads/9/5/6/0/95600058/godfrey_higgins_-_anacalypsis.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acharya_S&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://kahalyahweh.net/Articles/Beddru-Buddha.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.metaphysicspirit.com/books/Anacalypsis%20Vol.%20II.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didyma#History&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://anacalypsisattem01higg&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shemariah_of_Negropont&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oryx&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re%27em&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://archive.org/details/anacalypsisattem01higg/page/260/mode/2up?q=redeemer&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://orthodoxchurchfathers.com/?page_mode=search_result&amp;file_section=section_560288&amp;query=lactantius%20divine&amp;match_partial_words=0&amp;relative_filename=fathers/anf07/anf0707.htm#P1114_500295#apollo&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%E1%B9%9Bttik%C4%81&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_Crete&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1200s_BC_(decade)&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenae" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21757" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6477" RevisionGUID="0e692cfa-3242-4157-8d96-93022d25dbba" CreationDate="2020-07-22T07:27:18.130" UserId="7095" Comment="added 63 characters in body" Text="Okay, this might be something:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [OAHSPE Bible][1] mentions Crite three times:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Thoth sent the following message to Looeamong, to wit:...But, behold, I labor against Gods who have the advantage of me. The Chine'ya rebel&#xD;&#xA;Gods and the Vind'yu rebel Gods, that fled from the Triune kingdoms in the east, have&#xD;&#xA;taken upon themselves names popular with mortals. Witness these names:...Pherna, alias&#xD;&#xA;Holasa, alias Iao, alias **Crite**, alias Thammus...&quot; ([pg. 958][2])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;For one year and five months the balloting lasted, and at that time the ballot rested&#xD;&#xA;nearly equally on five Gods, namely: Jove, Kriste, Mars, **Crite** and Siva. And here the&#xD;&#xA;ballot changed not for yet seven time more, which was seven weeks.&quot; (pg. 963)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The next question was, what mortal representative should be chosen? The first ballot brought out the following men: Zarasthustra, Thothma, Abraham,&#xD;&#xA;Brahma, Atys, Thammus, Joshu, Sakaya, Habron, Bali, **Crite**, Chrisna, Thulis, Witoba&#xD;&#xA;and Speio. Besides these, there were included in the ballot, forty-six other men, who&#xD;&#xA;received a small number of ballots each. (pg. 963)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As can be seen, several of the other crucified figures mentioned by Higgins and Graves also appear, such as Atys, Chrisna (Krishna), Witoba and Thulis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If the OAHSPE is reliable in any sort of way, then that means that Crite can be identified with Thammus&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;, AKA [Tammuz][3], who, according to Higgins, is connected to St. Thomas:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;...Is there not great room for suspicion, that this Thomas was the Tamus for whom the women of Judea&#xD;&#xA;wept, and that his followers were not Christians, but Crhj-tians, followers of him of whom the Erythræan&#xD;&#xA;Sibyl prophesied?...The Portuguese finding these Christians worshiping and bewailing a Thomas or Tamuz—put to death at the&#xD;&#xA;vernal equinox, and after three days rising again to life, as I shall shew in a future book—to whom were&#xD;&#xA;attributed all things which were attributed to Jesus Christ, settled it instantly, that there was a mistake&#xD;&#xA;ignorantly made between St. Thomas (who must have gone to India as they believed) and Jesus Christ—a&#xD;&#xA;mistake made before by Jerom...&quot; ([pg. 666][4])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, author [Acharya S][5] suggests in an [essay on Beddru][6] (also on the list) that Beddru is a printing typo and is meant to be Beddou, who she identifies with Buddha, so if Crite isn't an invention of Graves', it's possible that it's also a typo. As was pointed out somewhere on the internet, this would mean that Buddha appears more than once on the list, under different names. If the OAHSPE's interpretation holds any water, then the same can be said of Tammuz.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As it turns out, in the [second volume of Anaclypsis][7], the following is written:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;I now beg my reader to look back to Vol. I. pp. 549-553, and there he will see the account of the prophecy of [Apollo of Miletus][8]...In this country there was a place called Thamas...also...and the island of Crete, called [Candia][9] and *Icriti*. I think in Apollo Didymaeus and the oracle of the incarnate person crucified by the Chaldaeans...and Patrick to Ireland, who brought **the mythos of the God incarnate crucified by the Chaldaeans - the God Icriti or Critika&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;, which was both *bull* and *ram*&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; - the God alluded by Apollo of Miletus**.&quot; (pg. 117)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This Icriti&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt;, as was written in Volume I, was crucified by Chaldean judges:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lanctatius makes the Apollo of Miletus say, &quot;He was a mortal according to the flesh; wise in miraculous works; but, being arrested by an armed force by command of the CHALDEAN judges, he suffered a death made bitter with nails and stakes.&quot;&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; (pg. 543)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;If my reader look back to Book IX. Chap. X., he will find a prophecy by Apollo, of Miletus, of a divine incarnation crucified by Chaldean judges. There were the Chaldaeans of Colida…It was the crucifixion of Crisen and Salivahana and St. Thomas, of the Christians of Crisen.&quot; (pg. 810)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Lactantius makes the Apollo of Miletus say, &quot;He was a mortal according to the flesh; wise in miraculous works; but, being arrested by an armed force by command of the Chaldean judges, he suffered a death made bitter with nails and stakes. In this, of course, devotees will see nothing but a Gentile prophecy of Christ...The reference to the Chaldean judges shews, that this can have no reference to the crucified saviour of our Bible.&quot;&quot; ([pg. 584][10])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; That Thammus and Crite appear as separate entities in the third section appears to be because that section refers to mortals, many of whom are named after gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; On Icriti and Crite: In Hebrew, &quot;Ikriti&quot; means &quot;of Crete&quot; (for example, [Rabbi Shmaryah HaIkriti][11], who, coincidentally enough, was put to death on the assertion that he had claimed he was the Jewish messiah). Crite is of course very similar to Crete, and Higgins was known to have mixed and matched multiple languages and multiple varying spellings of different words, so perhaps the typo came from here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; On &quot;the Bull and the Ram&quot; - this appears to be a reference to vol. I, pg. 231:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;But the word Ram, ראם *ram* in Hebrew [actually pronounced Re'em] means both Bull and Ram. This arose, I suspect, from the Indian incarnation of Rama, who preceeded Cristas. In fact he was the incarnation of the Neros when the Sun left Taurus and entered Aries; thus he was incarnate in the signs of both the Bull and the Ram.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Re'em in Hebrew refers to both the modern animal the [Oryx][12] and the mythic [Re'em][13] creature, which is widely believed to have been some sort of wild bull.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; The description of &quot;Crite&quot; or Icriti in Graves' book appears to have come from the following passage:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;In this ceremony of sacrificing the lamb the devotees of India chant with a loud voice, *When will it be that the Saviour will be born! When will it be that the Redeemer will appear!*&quot; ([pg. 261][14])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In vol. II, pg. 117, in a footnote on Icriti, Higgins wrote:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Evidently the Indian Kritika&lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt;.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meaning that Higgins identified the Indian savior with the Cretan/Chaldean Icriti, which explains &quot;Crite's&quot; description in Graves' book.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; [Lactantius, the Divine Institutes, Book IV][15]. Lactantius makes out this prophecy to be about Jesus, but Higgins refutes that because of the reference to Chaldean judges as the crucifiers (and not Romans). Either way, this means that the Milesian oracle spoke of an event that had happened long before (as opposed to foreseeing the future).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt; On Kritika in India and Crete: [Krittika][16] is the Indian name for the Pleione star cluster and is also the name of the female goddess-personification of the cluster. [Kritika][17] is the name of a type of traditional Cretan music.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;In short, &quot;Crite&quot; appears to have been a Cretan deity or deity-incarnate who was prophesied by Apollo of Miletus to being crucified by Chaldean judges, which supposedly is exactly what happened.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Note: According to Wikipedia, Babylonian history can be calculated through five different chronological calculations (ultra-short chronology leading up to ultra-high chronology), so it's hard to pinpoint what exactly may have happened in [1200 BCE][18], if that's even the correct date and if anything related to the crucifying of a Cretan happened at all.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;A few possibilities: 1. Collapse of Hittite power in Anatolia with the destruction of their capital Hattusa. 2. Massive migrations of people around the Mediterranean and the Middle-East. See [Sea People][19] for more information. 3. Aramaic nomads and Chaldeans become a big threat to the former Babylonian and Assyrian Empire. 4. Migration and expansion of Dorian Greeks. Destruction of Mycenaean city Pylos. 5. Final destruction of the major [Mycenian][20] city excavated at Iklaina.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;As can be seen, circa 1200 BCE there were many great upheavals both in the area of Crete and its people (Mycenaeans, Sea People, etc) and in Babylon. It's possible that in order to reach new land, the displaced Cretans traveled through Babylon and were attacked by the Chaldeans, but this is just a guess.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oahspe:_A_New_Bible&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.angelfire.com/realm3/oahspedownload/OAHSPE.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumuzid&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.baytagoodah.com/uploads/9/5/6/0/95600058/godfrey_higgins_-_anacalypsis.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acharya_S&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://kahalyahweh.net/Articles/Beddru-Buddha.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.metaphysicspirit.com/books/Anacalypsis%20Vol.%20II.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didyma#History&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Candia&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://anacalypsisattem01higg&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shemariah_of_Negropont&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oryx&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re%27em&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://archive.org/details/anacalypsisattem01higg/page/260/mode/2up?q=redeemer&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://orthodoxchurchfathers.com/?page_mode=search_result&amp;file_section=section_560288&amp;query=lactantius%20divine&amp;match_partial_words=0&amp;relative_filename=fathers/anf07/anf0707.htm#P1114_500295#apollo&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%E1%B9%9Bttik%C4%81&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_Crete&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1200s_BC_(decade)&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenae" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21758" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6477" RevisionGUID="7ce32a82-6fea-4c8a-8cc7-6c216b184933" CreationDate="2020-07-22T13:51:50.310" UserId="7095" Comment="added 1828 characters in body" Text="Okay, this might be something:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [OAHSPE Bible][1] mentions Crite three times:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Thoth sent the following message to Looeamong, to wit:...But, behold, I labor against Gods who have the advantage of me. The Chine'ya rebel&#xD;&#xA;Gods and the Vind'yu rebel Gods, that fled from the Triune kingdoms in the east, have&#xD;&#xA;taken upon themselves names popular with mortals. Witness these names:...Pherna, alias&#xD;&#xA;Holasa, alias Iao, alias **Crite**, alias Thammus...&quot; ([pg. 958][2])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;For one year and five months the balloting lasted, and at that time the ballot rested&#xD;&#xA;nearly equally on five Gods, namely: Jove, Kriste, Mars, **Crite** and Siva. And here the&#xD;&#xA;ballot changed not for yet seven time more, which was seven weeks.&quot; (pg. 963)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The next question was, what mortal representative should be chosen? The first ballot brought out the following men: Zarasthustra, Thothma, Abraham,&#xD;&#xA;Brahma, Atys, Thammus, Joshu, Sakaya, Habron, Bali, **Crite**, Chrisna, Thulis, Witoba&#xD;&#xA;and Speio. Besides these, there were included in the ballot, forty-six other men, who&#xD;&#xA;received a small number of ballots each. (pg. 963)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As can be seen, several of the other crucified figures mentioned by Higgins and Graves also appear, such as Atys, Chrisna (Krishna), Witoba and Thulis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If the OAHSPE is reliable in any sort of way, then that means that Crite can be identified with Thammus&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;, AKA [Tammuz][3], who, according to Higgins, is connected to St. Thomas:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;...Is there not great room for suspicion, that this Thomas was the Tamus for whom the women of Judea&#xD;&#xA;wept, and that his followers were not Christians, but Crhj-tians, followers of him of whom the Erythræan&#xD;&#xA;Sibyl prophesied?...The Portuguese finding these Christians worshiping and bewailing a Thomas or Tamuz—put to death at the&#xD;&#xA;vernal equinox, and after three days rising again to life, as I shall shew in a future book—to whom were&#xD;&#xA;attributed all things which were attributed to Jesus Christ, settled it instantly, that there was a mistake&#xD;&#xA;ignorantly made between St. Thomas (who must have gone to India as they believed) and Jesus Christ—a&#xD;&#xA;mistake made before by Jerom...&quot; ([pg. 666][4])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, author [Acharya S][5] suggests in an [essay on Beddru][6] (also on the list) that Beddru is a printing typo and is meant to be Beddou, who she identifies with Buddha, so if Crite isn't an invention of Graves', it's possible that it's also a typo. As was pointed out somewhere on the internet, this would mean that Buddha appears more than once on the list, under different names. If the OAHSPE's interpretation holds any water, then the same can be said of Tammuz.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As it turns out, in the [second volume of Anaclypsis][7], the following is written:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;I now beg my reader to look back to Vol. I. pp. 549-553, and there he will see the account of the prophecy of [Apollo of Miletus][8]...In this country there was a place called Thamas...also...and the island of Crete, called [Candia][9] and *Icriti*. I think in Apollo Didymaeus and the oracle of the incarnate person crucified by the Chaldaeans...and Patrick to Ireland, who brought **the mythos of the God incarnate crucified by the Chaldaeans - the God Icriti or Critika&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;, which was both *bull* and *ram*&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; - the God alluded by Apollo of Miletus**.&quot; (pg. 117)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This Icriti&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt;, as was written in Volume I, was crucified by Chaldean judges:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lanctatius makes the Apollo of Miletus say, &quot;He was a mortal according to the flesh; wise in miraculous works; but, being arrested by an armed force by command of the CHALDEAN judges, he suffered a death made bitter with nails and stakes.&quot;&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; (pg. 543)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;If my reader look back to Book IX. Chap. X., he will find a prophecy by Apollo, of Miletus, of a divine incarnation crucified by Chaldean judges. There were the Chaldaeans of Colida…It was the crucifixion of Crisen and Salivahana and St. Thomas, of the Christians of Crisen.&quot; (pg. 810)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Lactantius makes the Apollo of Miletus say, &quot;He was a mortal according to the flesh; wise in miraculous works; but, being arrested by an armed force by command of the Chaldean judges, he suffered a death made bitter with nails and stakes. In this, of course, devotees will see nothing but a Gentile prophecy of Christ...The reference to the Chaldean judges shews, that this can have no reference to the crucified saviour of our Bible.&quot;&quot; ([pg. 584][10])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; That Thammus and Crite appear as separate entities in the third section appears to be because that section refers to mortals, many of whom are named after gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; On Icriti and Crite: In Hebrew, &quot;Ikriti&quot; means &quot;of Crete&quot; (for example, [Rabbi Shmaryah HaIkriti][11], who, coincidentally enough, was put to death on the assertion that he had claimed he was the Jewish messiah). Crite is of course very similar to Crete, and Higgins was known to have mixed and matched multiple languages and multiple varying spellings of different words, so perhaps the typo came from here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; On &quot;the Bull and the Ram&quot; - this appears to be a reference to vol. I, pg. 231:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;But the word Ram, ראם *ram* in Hebrew [actually pronounced Re'em] means both Bull and Ram. This arose, I suspect, from the Indian incarnation of Rama, who preceeded Cristas. In fact he was the incarnation of the Neros when the Sun left Taurus and entered Aries; thus he was incarnate in the signs of both the Bull and the Ram.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Re'em in Hebrew refers to both the modern animal the [Oryx][12] and the mythic [Re'em][13] creature, which is widely believed to have been some sort of wild bull.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This, in turn, appears to refer to a running idea in vol. I of the bull and the ram representing God:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...and this may account for the transfer of the festival of Taurus to that of Aries...It is pretty evident from the Paschal feast, the sacrifice of the Lamb, the change of the beginning of the year to the first of Aries, the anger at Aaron's Bull or Bulls, the going back of the Israelites to the Bulls of Bethavon, בית אן *bit an*, etc, a great part of Moses's object was the change of the festival of the equinox from Taurus to Aries. I cannot help suspecting that in very anceint times a human being was sacrificed at the Pascal festival by some devotees, and that the story of Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac was the mythologic mode of describing the change, either from this worship, or from the offering of the bull or calf, to that of the Lamb, perhaps of both. The simultaneous existence of the worship of the sun in Taurus with the sun in Aries...Thus we find the festival of Taurus continued along with that of Aries in Britain...In Egypt they appear to have gone on amicably. And we have Osiris, Apis, Serapis, and Jupiter Ammon...&quot; (pg.256)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;To return to the word Baal. The word בעל *bol*, called by us Baal...בעל *bol* is also called אלהים aleim [actually pronounced Elohim]...God was originally called בעל *Bol*, *Thou shalt no more call me Baali*. He was afterwards called...ie [reference to the tetragrammaton]...and was the root of the word Iaw, or Iao-pater, Jupiter, and in Egypt, with the head of a ram, was called Jupiter Ammon [possibly Amun?]. The followers of Baal were the worshipers of the sun in Taurus: those of Iao of Ammon - of the sun in Aries. From the word בעל Bol probably came our word Bull. Here the struggle betwixt the two sects of Taurus and Aries shews itself.&quot;&quot; (pg. 258-259)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; The description of &quot;Crite&quot; or Icriti in Graves' book appears to have come from the following passage:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;In this ceremony of sacrificing the lamb the devotees of India chant with a loud voice, *When will it be that the Saviour will be born! When will it be that the Redeemer will appear!*&quot; ([pg. 261][14])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In vol. II, pg. 117, in a footnote on Icriti, Higgins wrote:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Evidently the Indian Kritika&lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt;.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meaning that Higgins identified the Indian savior with the Cretan/Chaldean Icriti, which explains &quot;Crite's&quot; description in Graves' book.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; [Lactantius, the Divine Institutes, Book IV][15]. Lactantius makes out this prophecy to be about Jesus, but Higgins refutes that because of the reference to Chaldean judges as the crucifiers (and not Romans). Either way, this means that the Milesian oracle spoke of an event that had happened long before (as opposed to foreseeing the future).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt; On Kritika in India and Crete: [Krittika][16] is the Indian name for the Pleione star cluster and is also the name of the female goddess-personification of the cluster. [Kritika][17] is the name of a type of traditional Cretan music.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;In short, &quot;Crite&quot; appears to have been a Cretan deity or deity-incarnate who was prophesied by Apollo of Miletus to being crucified by Chaldean judges, which supposedly is exactly what happened.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Note: According to Wikipedia, Babylonian history can be calculated through five different chronological calculations (ultra-short chronology leading up to ultra-high chronology), so it's hard to pinpoint what exactly may have happened in [1200 BCE][18], if that's even the correct date and if anything related to the crucifying of a Cretan happened at all.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;A few possibilities: 1. Collapse of Hittite power in Anatolia with the destruction of their capital Hattusa. 2. Massive migrations of people around the Mediterranean and the Middle-East. See [Sea People][19] for more information. 3. Aramaic nomads and Chaldeans become a big threat to the former Babylonian and Assyrian Empire. 4. Migration and expansion of Dorian Greeks. Destruction of Mycenaean city Pylos. 5. Final destruction of the major [Mycenian][20] city excavated at Iklaina.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;As can be seen, circa 1200 BCE there were many great upheavals both in the area of Crete and its people (Mycenaeans, Sea People, etc) and in Babylon. It's possible that in order to reach new land, the displaced Cretans traveled through Babylon and were attacked by the Chaldeans, but this is just a guess.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oahspe:_A_New_Bible&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.angelfire.com/realm3/oahspedownload/OAHSPE.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumuzid&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.baytagoodah.com/uploads/9/5/6/0/95600058/godfrey_higgins_-_anacalypsis.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acharya_S&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://kahalyahweh.net/Articles/Beddru-Buddha.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.metaphysicspirit.com/books/Anacalypsis%20Vol.%20II.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didyma#History&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Candia&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://anacalypsisattem01higg&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shemariah_of_Negropont&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oryx&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re%27em&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://archive.org/details/anacalypsisattem01higg/page/260/mode/2up?q=redeemer&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://orthodoxchurchfathers.com/?page_mode=search_result&amp;file_section=section_560288&amp;query=lactantius%20divine&amp;match_partial_words=0&amp;relative_filename=fathers/anf07/anf0707.htm#P1114_500295#apollo&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%E1%B9%9Bttik%C4%81&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_Crete&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1200s_BC_(decade)&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenae" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21760" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6481" RevisionGUID="03988e1f-db70-4ee2-8cd2-cb5272face4c" CreationDate="2020-07-23T08:09:55.033" UserId="7106" Text="I have tried to find a timeline for Greek mythology but I either find small, unreferenced lists or timelines of Ancient Greece.&#xA;&#xA;I know there is some continuity in Greek mythology, we know Jason and the Golden Fleece happens before the Trojan War because Peleus is an Argonaut, and the Odyssey happens after the Trojan War  for obvious reasons. But is it possible to connect all major myth storylines? I have no idea for example where Oeadipus fits.&#xA;&#xA;I guess that the further you go back it gets complicated or contradictory as you enter into more divine events. Events like the Gigantomachy or the Titanomachy involve so many gods (and sometimes heroes), and I do not even know if that contradicts the creation of humanity. There are also different versions of myths that make it all even harder. Like Hephaestus being born out of Hera’s jealousy for Zeus having Athena on his own, but in another version it is Hephaestus that cracks Zeus head open to get Athena out.&#xA;&#xA;I would like a detailed timeline of major events particularly to address a secondary question: (aside from cosmogonic events) how many generations Greek mythology spans?  Other questions include: are some Greek heroes born before any of the Olympians? Or which is the last story? (I guess Aeneas)&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;If this cannot be done, what are some major events that contradict or are impossible to figure out their timeline placement in relation to other myths?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21761" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6481" RevisionGUID="03988e1f-db70-4ee2-8cd2-cb5272face4c" CreationDate="2020-07-23T08:09:55.033" UserId="7106" Text="Is it possible to build a timeline for Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21762" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6481" RevisionGUID="03988e1f-db70-4ee2-8cd2-cb5272face4c" CreationDate="2020-07-23T08:09:55.033" UserId="7106" Text="|greek|mythohistory|history|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21763" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6481" RevisionGUID="103ae0ea-1783-4e3e-b22c-153a8ee6385d" CreationDate="2020-07-23T08:16:45.773" UserId="7106" Comment="added 101 characters in body" Text="I have tried to find a timeline for Greek mythology but I either find small, unreferenced lists or timelines of Ancient Greece. Particularly, I would like to build or find one where it explains how different stories are related.&#xA;&#xA;I know there is some continuity in Greek mythology, we know Jason and the Golden Fleece happens before the Trojan War because Peleus is an Argonaut, and the Odyssey happens after the Trojan War  for obvious reasons. But is it possible to connect all major myth storylines? I have no idea for example where Oeadipus fits.&#xA;&#xA;I guess that the further you go back it gets complicated or contradictory as you enter into more divine events. Events like the Gigantomachy or the Titanomachy involve so many gods (and sometimes heroes), and I do not even know if that contradicts the creation of humanity. There are also different versions of myths that make it all even harder. Like Hephaestus being born out of Hera’s jealousy for Zeus having Athena on his own, but in another version it is Hephaestus that cracks Zeus head open to get Athena out.&#xA;&#xA;I would like a detailed timeline of major events particularly to address a secondary question: (aside from cosmogonic events) how many generations Greek mythology spans?  Other questions include: are some Greek heroes born before any of the Olympians? Or which is the last story? (I guess Aeneas)&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;If this cannot be done, what are some major events that contradict or are impossible to figure out their timeline placement in relation to other myths?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21764" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6482" RevisionGUID="2219a540-7bcb-4664-8ddc-237a64d402d4" CreationDate="2020-07-23T15:44:50.263" UserId="7095" Text="&quot;Could there be connection to the legend that had the Amazons burn or cut their right breasts?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact, it seems that that is exactly the reason for her title. An article on Proto Thema, a Greek newspaper, [writes][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[Google Translate] &quot;The traditions for Monovyza, probably have a historical basis. They may refer to the destruction of Phenicia by the Teutonic queen of the Illyrians, in 231 BC. According to tradition, her son Ίoulos was killed in a battle and his mother, in order to take revenge, decided to destroy [Epirus][2].&#xD;&#xA;However, according to Appian (Illyrian, 7), [Teuta][3] did not have her own child. Her husband, Agronas, had a son, [Pinnis][4], from a previous marriage...The people of Epirus named the princess &quot;Monovyza&quot;, either insultingly or to declare her warlike nature. The word Monobyza, like the Latin Unimammia, means Amazon, because later writers mispronounced the word from the deprivative alpha and the masculine = breast. According to this paretymology, the myth was created that the Amazons cut their right breast so as not to prevent them from javelin throwing and archery. Caesar Dapontes in his work &quot;Mirror of Women&quot; (1766), calls the Amazons &quot;Monovyzousa&quot;.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other words, both Argyro and Queen Teuta who may have been the basis for Argyro's legendary aspect, were called by a term that was used to refer to the Amazons, a term that meant 'single-breast' but was misinterpreted later on to literally mean that they had only one breast.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The idea was, as was put [here][5]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[Google Translate] &quot;In almost every region there is a different version of the myth. However, the core idea remains the same in all of them: Monovyza is a very strong woman with supernatural power.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.protothema.gr/stories/article/863622/arguro-i-monovuza-o-thrulos-kai-i-anatrihiastiki-katara-tis/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teuta#Early_reign_(231%E2%80%93230_BC)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinnes_(Ardiaean)&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://mountains.ntua.gr/en/courseworks" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21765" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6483" RevisionGUID="26e4672b-c17c-47d8-9e55-e26ed02cd9f4" CreationDate="2020-07-23T18:59:32.403" UserId="7107" Text="Since this is certainly a common theme, I'm wondering if there is a Myth about someone who ignorantly walks themselves repeatedly into ill-fate or their own misery. It would be like Sisyphus, but instead of being cursed to move the boulder, he did it on his own will and just repeatedly crushes himself with the boulder. It can be really from any origin, I'm just convinced there has to be some myth that fits this theme, considering how much it plays out in modern life, and how accurate many myths were at describing things that... well, often play out in life. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An example of someone doing this today would be like protesting not wearing a mask... only to get sick. &#xD;&#xA;I know this question is super broad but something tells me there has to be something pretty accurate out there. Thank you! " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21766" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6483" RevisionGUID="26e4672b-c17c-47d8-9e55-e26ed02cd9f4" CreationDate="2020-07-23T18:59:32.403" UserId="7107" Text="Is there a myth about someone who constantly creates their own demise?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21767" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6483" RevisionGUID="26e4672b-c17c-47d8-9e55-e26ed02cd9f4" CreationDate="2020-07-23T18:59:32.403" UserId="7107" Text="|greek|norse|myth-identification|roman|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21768" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6484" RevisionGUID="f59271a3-3e50-42e4-81c1-68f50dc03204" CreationDate="2020-07-23T20:46:22.203" UserId="7095" Text="Judaism, according to one interpretation in the Talmud of the verse in [Judges 5:23][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;“Curse Meroz!” said the angel of the LORD. “Bitterly curse its inhabitants, Because they came not to the aid of the LORD, To the aid of the LORD among the warriors.”&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...As it is written: “Curse bitterly its inhabitants” (Judges 5:23), in reference to all those sitting together with Meroz...And Ulla said: Barak ostracized Meroz with the blowing of four hundred shofarot due to his failure to come. As for the identification of Meroz, some say that he was a great man and that he was ostracized because he did not join in the war effort. And others say that the reference is to a star and not a human being, and that it did not aid the Jewish people in their battle, as it is stated: “The stars fought from heaven; in their courses they fought against Sisera,” (Judges 5:20). This star, which did not help the Jewish people, was cursed.&quot; ([Tractate Mo'ed Katan, 16a][2])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Robert A. Freitas Jr wrote an entire book on aliens ([available online][3]) and has a [chapter][4] dedicated to ancient cultural and religious views on extraterrestrial life:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Babylonians, successors to the Sumerian civilization, held that the moving points of light in the sky which are the planets were the homes of their gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The holy books of Buddhism, on the other hand, appear to accept the plurality of worlds in countless numbers, complete with indigenous alien plant and animal lifeforms.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The ancient Vedda culture, which prospered on Ceylon prior to the Hindu invasion in the 6th century B.C., held that after death souls migrated to the Sun, Moon, and the stars before reaching Nirvana (the ultimate state of perfection). The beliefs of the Hindus are also closely associated with the idea of a plurality of worlds. The Indian philosophy, in fact, &quot;explicitly assumes the existence of extraterrestrial intelligences.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;To the Homeric Greeks, the Moon was an inhabited world separate from Earth, the dwelling place of protean gods and the spirits of departed humans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Since other earthlike worlds might therefore exist, Xenophanes of Colophon - a contemporary of Pythagoras - populated the Moon with inhabitants, cities and mountains.602 Another Greek philosopher named Anaximenes evidently also believed in a multitude of celestial habitats, because he had the audacity to tell Alexander the Great that the Macedonian king had conquered &quot;only one of many worlds.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Roman poet and philosopher Lucretius firmly believed in a host of inhabited worlds. As he wrote in De Rerum Natura:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&gt;Why then you must confess that other worlds exist in other regions of the sky, and different tribes of men, kinds of wild beasts.... Nothing in nature is produced alone, nothing is born unique, or grows unique, alone. Each thing is always specimen -- of race or class, and many specimens belong to each.... That sky and Earth and Sun and all that comes to be are not unique but rather countless examples of a class.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.sefaria.org/Moed_Katan.16a.7?lang=bi&amp;p2=Judges.5.23&amp;lang2=bi&amp;w2=all&amp;lang3=en&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.sefaria.org/Moed_Katan.16a.7?lang=bi&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.xenology.info/Xeno.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vida_alien/xenology/02.0.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21769" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2666" RevisionGUID="3ce73a9e-8536-4916-9cc2-43c0a21132be" CreationDate="2020-07-24T02:16:39.343" UserId="2682" Comment="truncated a portion of the Answer; &amp; fixed a dead link" Text="BRIEF&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles [Heracles] never engaged in combat against any Titan, neither before nor after his deification (his becoming a god). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Olympians participated in two cosmic conflicts: *Titanomakhia*, the &quot;Titans’ War&quot;; and *Gigantomakhia*, the &quot;Gigantes’ War.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Titans’ War is supposed to have taken place tens of thousands of years before Herakles’ birth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles was, however, brought to life specifically so that he could help the Olympians defeat the Gigantes (Giants), who turned out to be the deadliest threat to them since the era of the Titans. The Gigantes’ War, during which Herakles assisted the gods, thus broke out in the hero’s lifetime, while he was still a mortal, one human generation before the Trojan War. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**CHRONOLOGY**  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Here’s a basic timeline of some of the events mentioned here, using very loose dates of when they are supposed to have happened:&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 31,400 BC: **The Titans’ War**   &#xD;&#xA;31,300 BC: Birth of the God Hermes  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 31,200 BC: Imprisonment of the Titan Prometheus   &#xD;&#xA;1500 BC: Arabos, son of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hermes (&amp; ancestor of Herakles), becomes the first king of Arabia  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1300 BC: Birth of Herakles   &#xD;&#xA;1270 BC: Herakles releases Prometheus  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1260 BC: **The Gigantes’ War**   &#xD;&#xA;1250 BC: Death of Herakles   &#xD;&#xA;1220 BC:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Trojan War&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;The author of the [Greek Mythology Link (GML)](http://www.maicar.com/GML/MythicalChronology.html) also has a chronological outline of the major events of the mythic eras. The chart from that page is displayed below, at the end of this Answer.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;BREAKDOWN&#xD;&#xA;---------&#xD;&#xA;**The Immortality and Godhood of Herakles**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`But before he could die, Zeus has rescued him by raising his spirit to Olympos, making him an immortal god.`&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The way I have always understood the story, Herakles does genuinely die, for sure. It is only after he is dead that he is raised up to Mt Olympos [Olympus] and becomes a god. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are legends which seem partly designed to explain Herakles’ transition from a mere mortal shade in the land of the dead to a full-fledged divinity of Mt Olympos in his own right. There were different levels of deity in the various cults of Ancient Greece, in which there were divinities who were defined merely as heroes and others as *hemitheoi* (demigods, “half-gods”) in addition to those who were full-on *theoi*, “gods.” &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In one story, after Herakles’ suicide, his remains could not be found on his funeral pyre, so his nephew Iolaos became the first to sacrifice to the dead hero as a *hemitheos* (demigod). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Pausanias’ *Description of Greece*, Herakles had a son named Phaistos [Phaestus] who became king of the city of Sikyon. When Phaistos first arrived at Sikyon he found that the locals were making offerings to Herakles as a hero. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Phaistos then refused to do anything of the kind, but insisted on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sacrificing to him as to a *theos*. Even at the present day [`100s AD, over a thousand years after Herakles’ death`] the Sikyonians, after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; slaying a lamb and burning the thighs upon the altar, eat some of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; meat as part of a victim given to a *theos*, while the rest they offer&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as to a hero.   &#xD;&#xA;[2.10.1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Antagonism Against Titans** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`Drinking ambrosia in the company of Zeus couldn't entirely satisfy Heracles, so he continued his heroic deeds as an immortal god. Already experienced in defeating immortal beasts, he again helps the Olympians by fighting against the monstrous children the primordial gods have spawned. As a physically strong god, he was a decisive factor in ending the rule of the Titans and ensuring that the Olympian gods would rule the world.`&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`These stories seem contradictory.`&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is some confusion that has occurred here in general about the timeline, the wars and Herakles’ participation in one of them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There actually are no ancient stories in which Herakles fights against anybody after his apotheosis (deification), apart from a mural from Athens which depicts him, as an immortal god, together with the goddess Athena and a resurrected Theseus, fighting together with the Greeks against the Persians at the Battle of Marathon in 490 BC. All of Herakles' other adventurous encounters against men, gods, giants and monstrous beasts take place while he is still alive as a mortal man. One of the main features of his story is that he *earns* his immortality by fighting and defeating the monsters and colossal obstacles that he encounters as a mortal. His most dramatic tasks are predetermined for him by Zeus and Hera when he is still a baby. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;None of the deities that this hero ever combats are Titans. There are two different occasions on which there is an aggressive confrontation between Herakles and a Titan but both of these wind up pretty fast and quite peacefully. He once fires arrows upon Helios, the Sun, out of anger at the burning heat from this god’s light, but Helios simply laughs off the attack and even bestows a gift upon this powerful archer. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then Pherecydes tells us that when Herakles was crossing the cosmic earth-encircling Okeanos River, its god, the Titan Okeanos, rose up in his waves to rock the hero’s vessel in an attempt to intimidate him. Herakles threatened to shoot the Titan with his arrows, whereupon Okeanos fearfully calmed his waters. There is also the story about Herakles tricking the Titan Atlas into holding up the edge of the sky again after having taken a break from this task.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Cosmic Wars**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By my reckoning, Titanomakhia would have occurred even before the birth of Hermes, the grandson of the Titan Atlas who became the last of the Twelve Olympians. Not very long after the end of Titanomakhia, Atlas’ brother Prometheus was imprisoned by Zeus on the Caucasus Mountains, on the border of Europe and Asia. The Roman writer Hyginus provides us with the chronology for this in his *Fabulæ* and *Astronomica*. In both of these works Hyginus says that, according to the Greek tragedian Aeschylus, Prometheus was kept in chains for thirty thousand years before his bonds were broken by none other than Herakles.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Even in ancient times, however, the Titans and the Gigantes, and the two separate wars that they waged against the inhabitants of Mt Olympos, were sometimes confused with one another. The writer most notorious for mixing up his Greek myths and their characters is Hyginus. He lists Iapetos, the father of Atlas and Prometheus, as a Gigantos [Giant], even though Iapetos is certainly a Titan. He makes the same slip-up with the Titans Koios and Astraios. This is further complicated by the participation of some primordial Gigantes in the Titans’ War. Most of these Giant soldiers seem to have sided with Kronos against Zeus in that particular contest. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One especially clear difference between the two conflicts is that the Titans were immortal (or at least almost all of them seem to have been) while the Gigantes were not. At the end of Titanomakhia the enemies of the gods had to be incarcerated in Tartaros, the deepest part of the Underworld. Gigantomakhia, on the other hand, only ended when almost all of the Gigantes were dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles and the Gigantes are, in a way, parallel characters. Both Herakles and the Giants are almost mightier than the gods. Gaia, the Earth, gives birth to the Gigantes in order for them to avenge the defeat of Kronos during Titanomakhia. This trips the gods out because there is a prophecy among them which declares that unless they employ the help of a mortal, they will not be able to defeat the Gigantes. Zeus takes this well in hand and contrives the means to create the strongest mortal hero of all, who, when he grows up, will be the suitably required ally against their enemy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus we have the story in which Zeus disguises himself as Amphitryon, the fiancé of Herakles’ mother Alkmene, in order to consort with her and sire this hero upon her. He stretches the night in which Herakles is conceived into the length of three nights, in order to produce this strongest and toughest of men. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meanwhile Gaia is scheming to obtain a special plant growing upon her surface. This plant is a drug with the power to make the Gigantes indestructible, even at mortal hands. So Zeus commands the heavenly lights, such as the Sun, Moon and Stars, not to shine while Gaia searches for this substance. Evidently she never finds it, because Herakles grows up, as do the Gigantes, and these huge enemies of the gods are after all slain by this mortal hero in collaboration with the Olympians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Precise Chronology of Gigantomakhia**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus specifies for us, in *Bibliotheka* 2.7.1-2, that Gigantomakhia broke out sometime after Herakles had completed his twelve tasks. While sailing back to Greece from an expedition at Troy, Herakles and his army landed on the Aegean island of Kos, whose locals mistook him and his men for pirates. Herakles, in retaliation, laid the island to waste, at which point the goddess Athena came to fetch him from there to take him to Phlegra, in Thrace, where the Olympians were at war against the Gigantes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After Herakles had dispensed with the Gigantes, he moved on to attack Augeias, King of the Epeians of Elis, who had broken a deal with him during the performance of one of his twelve tasks. Here we incidentally get a display of Herakles’ mortality and the fact that he is not all-powerful: he suffers a dramatic defeat at the hands of Augeias’ army generals, the twin brothers Eurytos and Kteatos, who are sometimes portrayed as monstrous or gigantic. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus goes on to say that these brothers were the strongest men alive at the time. It could be that Herakles was, during this encounter, exhausted from waging cosmic battle against the Gigantes. Additionally, the *Bibliotheka* implies that he lost this fight because he fell sick during the attack on Elis. It may nonetheless prove that these twins were stronger than Herakles, since he was only able to kill them by treacherously waylaying them during a sacred ceasefire sometime after they had defeated him (fairly uncharacteristic behaviour for him). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Carlos Parada’s GML delineation of the timeline][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Carlos Parada’s GML delineation of the timeline  &#xD;&#xA;See also [Marc Carlson’s rendition](http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/history/clam.html), as well as a [third alternative, from the Argyrou website](http://www.argyrou.eclipse.co.uk/Chronology.htm).&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/l2Unu.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21770" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6485" RevisionGUID="24b48ff3-8af2-4160-a091-10389950ae51" CreationDate="2020-07-24T06:46:39.077" UserId="7095" Text="Note: Some of these uses were mentioned in the article you brought, but about different body parts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Dragon blood**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [Into The Wonder][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lifespan Extender. Probably goes very closely with the invulnerability.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;General Cure-All. On the island of Socotra, dragon’s blood is used as a cure-all for practically everything: fevers, kidney stones, wounds, tumors, respiratory and gastrointestinal complaints, etc. In ancient times, Greco-Roman naturalists such as Pliny the Elder and Dioscorides discussed the curative properties of this substance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Magic Enhancer. Those involved with Wicca, neopaganism, hoodoo, and other practices claim that burning powdered dragon’s blood as  an incense can increase the potency of spells or rituals related to protection, banishing, prosperity, luck, love, and fertility.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Coloring Agent. Dragon’s blood is also used as a dye, ink, or painting pigment. Socotrans use it to dye wool. Neopagan, Wiccan, Hoodoo, and other practitioners say dragon’s-blood ink can be used for writing spells, runes, magical seals, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Varnish. Dragon’s blood resin has been used to coat and stain wooden objects for centuries. In the eighteenth century, it was especially sought as a varnish for violins. Similarly, cinnabar was used in ancient Japan and elsewhere to lacquer both wooden and clay vessels.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Mouthwash. This is another use to which Socotrans put dragon’s blood. Dissolved in water and gargled, it can serve as an astringent, a stimulant, and even a kind of toothpaste.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [Mugglenet][2] (real uses, not Harry Potter ones):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Perfume: Dragon’s blood has a strong earthy scent and makes for an excellent perfume, both on its own or mixed with other scents.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Ink: Due to the bright red color of the sap, dragon’s blood can easily be turned into equally vibrant ink. Unlike actual blood, dragon’s blood will retain its bright color after drying. It’s easy to make too. All that’s needed is ground-up dragon’s blood resin, gum arabic, and either a water or alcohol base.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Stop bleeding: In addition to being an antiviral, taspine is a coagulant, which means that when placed upon bleeding wounds, it will encourage the blood to clot and help stop the bleeding.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [Healthline][3]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Antimicrobial: Dragon’s blood may offer some protection against or even kill pathogens like bacteria, fungi, and viruses.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Anti-inflammatory: Some studies have also revealed antioxidant potential in dragon’s blood. This indicates some anti-inflammatory properties, confirmed in another 2017 study.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Antidiabetic: Though research isn’t complete, there are signs dragon’s blood could support diabetes treatment or prevention.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Anticancer: Research related to dragon’s blood and cancer is in its early stages. There may be anti-tumor potential in dragon’s blood.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Dragon bones**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [Circle of the Dragon][4]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Chinese believe in &quot;old ghosts&quot;, which could haunt a person. Among other things, dragon bone was able to heal this &quot;spiritual ailment&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;It was also believed to help epilepsy in children, cough, certain abdominal problems, heart problems, several gastrological problems, and even help cure vaginal discharge.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [TopTenz][5]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;They were ground and consumed as treatment for a variety of ailments, such as dizziness, leg cramps, dysentery, internal swellings, and malaria.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Dragon teeth**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [Circle of the Dragon][4]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Dragon teeth were used to treat what we would call today psychological problems. Madness, certain kinds of spasms, epilepsy, and the inability to catch breath were all treated by dragon's teeth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Lengthening a person's life span was said to come about from these teeth, too.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Dragon body in general**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to a [Reddit comment][6] which brought [Woden's Nine Herbs Charm][7]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;A worm came creeping, he tore a man in two then Woden took 9 Glory-Twigs, struck the adder then, that it flew apart into 9 (bits). There brought about the apple and poison, that she [the adder] would never enter a house.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meaning, either a cure against poisons in general as suggested by the comment or just against snake-bites, as suggested by the poem's notes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://intothewonder.wordpress.com/tag/dragons-blood/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.mugglenet.com/2019/05/12-real-life-uses-of-dragons-blood/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.healthline.com/health/dragons-blood#researched-benefits&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.blackdrago.com/topics/parts.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.toptenz.net/top-10-creative-uses-bones.php&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.reddit.com/r/mythology/comments/ek822y/is_anyone_aware_of_other_uses_for_parts_of_a/fd80jgo?utm_source=share&amp;utm_medium=web2x&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://heorot.dk/woden-9herbs.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21771" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6481" RevisionGUID="3f748fb9-094d-4d85-9e42-e5108635d287" CreationDate="2020-07-24T10:12:50.770" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected spelling, fixed grammar &amp; improved formatting" Text="I have tried to find a timeline for Greek mythology but I either find small, unreferenced lists or timelines of Ancient Greece. Particularly, I would like to build or find one where it explains how different stories are related.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know there is some continuity in Greek mythology, we know Jason and the Golden Fleece happens before the Trojan War because Peleus is an Argonaut, and the *Odyssey* happens after the Trojan War  for obvious reasons. But is it possible to connect all major myth storylines? I have no idea for example where Oedipus fits.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I guess that the further you go back it gets complicated or contradictory as you enter into more divine events. Events like the Gigantomachy or the Titanomachy involve so many gods (and sometimes heroes), and I do not even know if that contradicts the creation of humanity. There are also different versions of myths that make it all even harder. Like Hephaestus being born out of Hera’s jealousy for Zeus having Athena on his own, but in another version it is Hephaestus that cracks Zeus' head open to get Athena out.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would like a detailed timeline of major events particularly to address a secondary question: (aside from cosmogonic events) how many generations does Greek mythology span?  Other questions include: are some Greek heroes born before any of the Olympians? Or which is the last story? (I'm guessing that of Aeneas.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If this cannot be done, what are some major events that contradict, or whose timeline placement is impossible to figure out in relation to other myths?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21772" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6486" RevisionGUID="c5b4629c-d7ce-4a1f-b2a2-008fe8b4292f" CreationDate="2020-07-24T10:14:24.617" UserId="2682" Text="Yes, it is possible, and has been done. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The GML Compilation&#xD;&#xA;-------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would say the handiest resource available for this online is the &quot;[Mythical Chronology Chart](https://www.maicar.com/GML/MythicalChronology.html)&quot; page on Carlos Parada's website the [Greek Mythology Link (GML)](https://www.maicar.com/GML/index.html).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![GML Mythical Chronology Chart][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As further explained on the afore-linked page (*q.v.*),&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;The chart does not establish precise historical dates, but shows the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; relative position in time of certain legends and characters as may be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; deduced from the legends themselves...&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Each person in the lists of mortals counts as one generation, three&#xD;&#xA;&gt; generations completing one century. Continuity has been established,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in most cases, through parentage or throne succession. Mortals written&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in red fought in the Trojan War. It may be seen, by comparing the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lists horizontally, who were living at the same time.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further down the page there is drawn up a quite neat &quot;List of Events&quot; starting with &quot;Creation of the World&quot;, after which the first event with a date listed is the life of one of the earliest kings of Argos in the 1870s BC, going from thence down to the reigns, in 550 BC, of Tarquinius Superbus in Rome, and of Croesus over Lydia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the bottom of the page, events get fleshed out in a little more detail comparing, with one another, dates as broken down by three different sources: the Marmor Parium Marble (264 BC), Denis Pétau (1628 AD) and Giambattista Vico (1744 AD).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So for example, according to Vico, the Titan Prometheus steals fire from the gods in 2143 BC while the Romans drive the Tarquin family off the throne of their city in 551 or 561 BC. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Supplementary Resources&#xD;&#xA;-----------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There a few other places online providing similar information with the same general chronological structure but in bare list formats, with varying conjectures for dates of when the different events would have taken place:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Marc Carlson's 2004 &quot;[Timeline of Classical&#xD;&#xA;   Mythology](http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/history/clam.html)&quot;&#xD;&#xA;   explains that he uses the traditional foundation of Rome, 753 BC, as&#xD;&#xA;   the linchpin of his dates, counting everything backwards from there.&#xD;&#xA;   (He does list a few historical events *after* that event.)&#xD;&#xA; - Argyros George Argyrou's 2009 &quot;[Chronology of Greece and the Greek&#xD;&#xA;   Myths](http://www.argyrou.eclipse.co.uk/Chronology.htm)&quot; starts off&#xD;&#xA;   with the foundation of Atlantis and ends, in 30 BC, with the death&#xD;&#xA;   of Cleopatra and of Mark Antony.&#xD;&#xA; - HellenicaWorld consolidates information derived from the GML, from&#xD;&#xA;   Argyrou, and from Wikipedia, into its own &quot;[Mythical Chronology of&#xD;&#xA;   Greece](http://www.hellenicaworld.com/Greece/Mythology/en/MythicalChronology.html)&quot;, regarding which it says that:&#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;   &gt; &lt;sup&gt;This list largely reflects the work of Saint Jerome, whose work in&#xD;&#xA;   &gt; turn was based primarily on the analysis of Apollodorus, Diodorus&#xD;&#xA;   &gt; Siculus, and Eusebius... In a few cases, the chronology also reflects&#xD;&#xA;   &gt; the opinions of more recent scholars, who have cross referenced the&#xD;&#xA;   &gt; mythology to archeological discoveries.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;SPECIFICS&#xD;&#xA;---------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks to the fact that something like at least 95% of all the characters of Greek mythology are traceably related to one another, with most of them being either divine or royalty (or both), it is a fairly straightforward task to locate virtually any one of them within a particular city's king-list or within the lifetime of at least one other character, who will then inadvertently be connected to yet other personages.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Oedipus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Oedipus lived about a generation and a half before the Trojan War. We know this because the biggest conflict involving Greek mortals before the Trojan War was the expedition of the Seven Against Thebes. The cause of this contest was a quarrel between Eteocles and Polyneices over the throne of their father Oedipus. The young men who fought in the war of the Epigoni, ten years after that of the Seven Against Thebes, were among the Greek heroes of the Trojan War, which took place some years after the Epigoni had sacked Thebes. One of these Epigoni who went to Troy was Oedipus's grandson Thersander.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We can also deduce that the Argonautic expedition took place at some point during Oedipus' reign over Thebes because Heracles [Hercules] was Argonaut. Heracles was at some point married to Megara, a daughter of Creon, who had been regent king of Thebes just before Oedipus acceded to the throne. Moreover, after the attack of the Seven Against Thebes, Heracles had placed Laodamas, yet another grandson of Oedipus, on the throne of Thebes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See the GML's chart above for how Oedipus, Polyneices, and Thersander (the last of these being Polyneices' son, and Laodamas' cousin), fit into the overall royal Theban succession.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Wars of the Titans and the Giants**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The human race did not yet exist at the time of the Titanomachy, unless you count the version of the myth of the Five &quot;Ages&quot; of Man, in which the first race or breed of men was made of gold and lived during the reign of Cronus. Still, humans are not said to have participated in this war, and they are otherwise more commonly said to have been created by the Olympians, in a collaboration project with the Titan Prometheus, a good while after the end of the contest between Cronus and Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Gigantomachy took place during the lifetime of Heracles, thus about a generation before the Trojan War. Zeus, who, one generation earlier, had foreseen this war, brought Heracles to life specifically in order for him to aid the Olympians in this conflict, for it had been prophesied that the gods would be defeated unless there was a mortal who could assist them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Roman writer Hyginus claims that, according to the playwright Aeschylus, Zeus had imprisoned Prometheus on Mt Caucasus for thirty thousand years before Heracles freed the Titan. Using this time-frame it would mean that, since Prometheus was imprisoned only after the end of the Titanomachy, the war between Cronus and Zeus took place thirty millennia before the Giants' uprising against the Olympians. Of the resources listed above, only Carlson's Timeline refelcts this, placing Prometheus' imprisonment at c. 31,270 BC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pausanias tantalisingly mentions that Heracles once fought against a giant named Thurius, while Tyndareus fought against a certain Eurytus, but then he refuses to narrate these events. There are several characters in Greek myth named Eurytus, and one of them is among the Giants of the Gigantomachy. If this is supposed to be the same as the one against whom Tyndareus fought, then Tyndareus would be the only other mortal, apart from Heracles, who is mentioned in connection with the Giants' War. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Granted, they could have engaged in combat before the Giants attacked the gods. There are, however, several other contemporaries of Tyndareus bearing this name who would serve as more plausible opponents for him, going by the other stories and adventures involving this particular hero. (It could just as easily be the *Centaur* Eurytus intended here by Pausanias.)    &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Births of Hephaestus and Athena**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The gods, particularly the Olympian ones, had dramatically brief childhoods. Surprisingly Zeus seems to be the exception here, who may have had a more ordinary human-length infancy and childhood. Conversely Zeus's children are described as having been born either full-grown (like Athena) or to have grown up in a matter of hours or just a few days (like Artemis and Apollo, and perhaps Hermes). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With this in mind I don't see the slightly different versions of Athena's birth presenting any difficulty for the timeline. Whoever happens to be older between Hephaestus and Athena, the likelihood is that their age difference is negligibly small either way (even if it's as big as a few years rather than just days). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Besides that, either version fits in neatly enough with the rest of the chronology, plus we have the alternative in which, if Hephaestus, for whatever reason, is an unavailable surgeon at Athena's birth, Apollodorus tells us that it was Prometheus instead who broke Zeus's head open in order to grant Athena her birth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whatever the case, by my guesstimate, all of the original Twelve Great Olympians—with the exception of Hermes—were born before the end of the Titanomachy, and so whichever combination of the drama involved in the births of Hephaestus and Athena would have happened within the nine years of the war, or before it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Horizon Lines**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How many generations Greek mythology spans would depend on how you define the end-point of the mythology. It blends fairly seamlessly into Roman mythology, wherein the only especially compelling deviation is the language and names of the characters, which become Latin, and Latinised. Nonetheless a chunk of the mythography regarding the foundation of Rome and the events leading up to it after the Trojan War comes from Greek sources writing in Roman times, still giving a very Greek perspective on what they are narrating. Dionysius of Halicarnassus, for example, is at great pains to emphasise the Greek origins of the Roman state and its peoples. Meanwhile Servius, commenting on Virgil's *Aeneid*, insists that the ancestors of the Dardanians and Trojans, who then in turn gave rise to the Romans, had themselves originally come from Italy rather than Greece. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond that there is the fact that the further into historical times that mythology encroaches, the more it blends in, transforming into &quot;legend&quot; and &quot;folklore.&quot; So for example, there are numerous tall tales about Alexander the Great (356 - 323 BC) which together make up a collection of fables known as the Alexander Romance. Included in the legends about him is the idea, apparently promoted even while he was still alive, that he was a son of Zeus. This technically makes him a character within what we call Greek mythology, and he is treated as such, e.g., in the *Recognitions* which are ascribed to Clement of Alexandria, where he is listed among other well-known children of Zeus, such as Epaphus, Tantalus and Sarpedon, all of whom, unlike Alexander, would have lived squarely within the &quot;mythical&quot; era.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then down into Christian times, as late as the 400s AD, there are stories of ordinary people encountering Centaurs, Satyrs and Tritons. Meanwhile in Modern Greek folklore, Nereids, the ancient goddesses of the Mediterranean Sea, together with other, more minor mythical creatures, have survived as supernatural creatures in much the same way that fairies are the old legendary Celtic phenomenon occupying the popular imagination of the British Isles (and inadvertently having been exported from thence pretty much all over the world).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Often a clear end-point, if one must have such a thing, comes at the conclusion of a particular city's king-list. It's fairly easy to note where the monarchs of a certain state stop being mythical personages and start being historical figures. The lineage of Alexander the Great, for example, places the Macedonian conqueror about fourteen generations away from Karanos [Caranus], the founder of the Argead dynasty and first ruler of the historical kingdom of Macedon, who reigned four centuries before Alexander's time. Karanos is purported to have been a son of Temenus, who in turn was a great-great-grandson of the mighty Heracles himself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So in this instance one might say that the mythology &quot;ends&quot; with the adventures of Temenus and of his contemporaries in other city-states who are said have been the fathers of the &quot;historical&quot; kings in places such as Messenia, Sparta, Athens and Ionia, c. 800 BC, about half a century before Romulus and Remus, the twin sons of the Italian god Mars, found Rome. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**How Many Generations?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Counting up the generations on the GML chart, starting with Phoroneus, whose subjects in Argos claimed that he was the first man, down to Tarquinius Superbus in Rome, gives us roughly forty generations. Note, however, that this does not include the majority of the thirty thousand years which Hyginus gives us between the Titanomachy and the time of Heracles, during which time, according to one interpretation of Hesiod's *Works and Days*, the earth would have been populated by successive breeds of generally nameless golden, silver and bronze men, prior to the advent of the Age of Heroes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, according to the information provided by Plato's *Critias* dialogue, the kingdom of Atlantis would have been founded at least nine thousand years earlier than the 2094 BC date which Argyrou's Chronology supplies for it; and Athens is apparently just as old as Atlantis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Heroes Born Before the Olympians**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are a few stories regarding the childhoods of some of the Olympian deities in which they are reared by mortal heroes, which does indeed mean that there are, in at least some versions of the mythology, heroes who are in fact older than the Olympians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to one tradition, Athena was raised in the Boeotian village of Alalcomenia, by the person after whom the place was named, a certain Alalcomenes or Alalcomeneus, who was a local Autochthon (earth-born man), whose wife was called Athenaïs and whose son was named Glaucopus, &quot;Grey-Eyed,&quot; a feature he apparently shared with the goddess. From her foster father the deity was known as Athena Alalcomenia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In their two different *Metamorphoses* epics, Ovid, and Antoninus Liberalis, respectively, contradict what I say above regarding the human race not existing during the Titans' War. A rabble of Lycian peasants is said to have mistreated the Titaness Leto when she was pregnant with her twins Apollo and Artemis, for which she punished these men by turning them into the first frogs. Since I place the birth of these twin deities during the Titanomachy, my explanation is that the peasants, like Alalcomenes, were Autochthons, and thus sort of human, but not the general rendition thereof which came later under the auspices of Prometheus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;During Hermes' adventures of thievery on the same day in which he was born, he turned an old man named Battus to stone after he discovered that he couldn't trust the man not to tell on him for stealing Apollo's cattle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyginus reports the wildly contradictory story which says that a pair of nymphs named Aex and Helice nursed Zeus when the god was a baby. The problem is that the nymphs were the daughters of a certain Olenus who was a son of Hephaestus, who we know was Zeus's own son (or at least the son of Zeus' wife Hera)! How Zeus's own great-granddaughters (or great-great-nieces) are taking care of him in his infancy is not explained. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Alternatively Zeus is said to have been reared by Amaltheia, daughter of Haemonius; or by the daughters of a Cretan king called Melisseus. Theoi.com interprets the names of these mysterious men as belonging to some of the Curetes and Dactyls who are usually attributed with having looked after the infant god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dionysus and Heracles, both of whom became gods, according to Diodorus Siculus, were each granted the title of &quot;Olympian&quot; by their father Zeus. Both of them were born to mortal women somewhere in the middle of the aforementioned forty-generation time-span and are therefore younger than numerous other heroes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;            &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/l2Unu.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21774" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6487" RevisionGUID="46c68ae2-6ab5-4475-9704-2ce6eb4030de" CreationDate="2020-07-24T11:36:06.680" UserId="7095" Text="According to a [post][1] on Total War Center:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Inside the portal to a closed area with email, there is a female swan head cast in silver (the figure may represent the folk figure named Melusine, feminine spirit of fresh waters in sacred springs and rivers).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [Romanian Coins][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The man represented on the buckle is considered to be Louis the Great, king of Hungary (1342 - 1382) and of Poland (1370 - 1382). The woman is considered to be [Elizabeth of Bosnia Kotromanic][3], the second wife of king Louis of Hungary, daughter of Stephen II, Ban of Bosnia, and descendand from a Polish king. The swan with human head is considered to be the heraldic sign of the queen.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and according to [Wikimedia][4]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Swans are used in heraldry and can represent loyalty and grace among other things.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?558841-HISTORICAL-ISSUE-The-tomb-from-the-Curtea-de-Arges-Princely-Church&amp;s=0f0e8fe8d07c97f22e3675339f3b97cd&amp;p=11919842&amp;viewfull=1#post11919842&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://romaniancoins.org/10lei11_paftaua_curtea_arges.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_of_Bosnia&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Post-medieval_buckle,_S-shaped_buckle_(FindID_598079).jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21775" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6488" RevisionGUID="7bad9571-4bd0-4cdb-a95e-a301c3f4d009" CreationDate="2020-07-24T16:36:33.643" UserId="7111" Text="I bought this necklace recently which had no info about the creature on it. I was just wondering if it's just made up or if it features in any myths/legends? Thanks![![humanoid creature with insect-like wings. long protruding nose, no facial features. holds a staff. is wading with trousers rolled up through a grassy field or water. an eye is in the sky above it.][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/rgJ2U.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21776" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6488" RevisionGUID="7bad9571-4bd0-4cdb-a95e-a301c3f4d009" CreationDate="2020-07-24T16:36:33.643" UserId="7111" Text="Can you help me identify this creature?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21777" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6488" RevisionGUID="7bad9571-4bd0-4cdb-a95e-a301c3f4d009" CreationDate="2020-07-24T16:36:33.643" UserId="7111" Text="|myth-identification|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21778" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6489" RevisionGUID="05098666-aa74-495b-b827-7e871a2a13d6" CreationDate="2020-07-24T18:46:05.673" UserId="7112" Text="Some time ago I thought about the same. And I think there is a connection between many myths of different cultures or maybe even a form of proto-myth if you will. An example would be the Noah and flood story in Christendom and the Deucalion myth in Greek mythology. In the case of Siegfried and Achilles, I think it is somewhat justified to believe that both stories share at least some elements. Besides what you mentioned, there is also the idea that name 'Hagen from Tronje' actually derives from the word Troy (http://self.gutenberg.org/articles/Hagen_(legend)). However, this might be just a coincidence, as it was quite fashionable during the middle ages to claim some heroic heritage. Having said that, I am far from an expert in the field, but I sort of like it to be true. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21781" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6492" RevisionGUID="f01c85ad-a6b0-4446-8fb1-68c781e8fa83" CreationDate="2020-07-26T00:40:45.607" UserId="7117" Text="Castor and Pollux, Helen and Clytemnestra are considered twins, and may or may not have hatched from eggs laid by Nemesis after being impregnated by her father Zeus as swans. I am having a hard time finding references for other gods or god-like beings that laid eggs, that were then hatched by humans (in this case, Leda), and (preferably) gave rise to twins. Does anyone know of other global mythologies that closely match this story? I'm flexible on comparisons, but the more obscure and less Greco-Roman, the better. Ideally they would tie together twins, gods as birds, and children raised by humans. I am new to this sight, so if I'm missing any protocols, please let me know and I will modify my question." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21782" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6492" RevisionGUID="f01c85ad-a6b0-4446-8fb1-68c781e8fa83" CreationDate="2020-07-26T00:40:45.607" UserId="7117" Text="Are there any gods or similar beings other than Nemesis that laid eggs?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21783" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6492" RevisionGUID="f01c85ad-a6b0-4446-8fb1-68c781e8fa83" CreationDate="2020-07-26T00:40:45.607" UserId="7117" Text="|greek|comparative|animals|demi-gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21784" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6486" RevisionGUID="62cba863-76be-436c-8a04-62a8974218d9" CreationDate="2020-07-26T03:14:43.813" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar; + corrected, adjusted &amp; added some details" Text="Yes, it is possible, and has been done. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The GML Compilation&#xD;&#xA;-------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would say the handiest resource available for this online is the &quot;[Mythical Chronology Chart](https://www.maicar.com/GML/MythicalChronology.html)&quot; page on Carlos Parada's website the [Greek Mythology Link (GML)](https://www.maicar.com/GML/index.html).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![GML Mythical Chronology Chart][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As further explained on the afore-linked page (*q.v.*),&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;The chart does not establish precise historical dates, but shows the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; relative position in time of certain legends and characters as may be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; deduced from the legends themselves...&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Each person in the lists of mortals counts as one generation, three&#xD;&#xA;&gt; generations completing one century. Continuity has been established,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in most cases, through parentage or throne succession. Mortals written&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in red fought in the Trojan War. It may be seen, by comparing the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lists horizontally, who were living at the same time.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further down the page there is drawn up a quite neat &quot;List of Events&quot; starting with &quot;Creation of the World&quot;, after which the first event with a date listed is the life of one of the earliest kings of Argos in the 1870s BC, going from thence down to the reigns, in 550 BC, of Tarquinius Superbus in Rome, and of Croesus over Lydia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the bottom of the page, events get fleshed out in a little more detail comparing, with one another, dates as broken down by three different sources: the Marmor Parium (264 BC), Denis Pétau (1628 AD) and Giambattista Vico (1744 AD).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So for example, according to Vico, the Titan Prometheus steals fire from the gods in 2143 BC while the Romans drive the Tarquin family off the throne of their city in 551 or 561 BC. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Supplementary Resources&#xD;&#xA;-----------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There a few other places online providing similar information with the same general chronological structure but in bare list formats, with varying conjectures for dates of when the different events would have taken place:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Marc Carlson's 2004 &quot;[Timeline of Classical&#xD;&#xA;   Mythology](http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/history/clam.html)&quot;&#xD;&#xA;   explains that he uses the traditional foundation-year of Rome, 753 BC, as&#xD;&#xA;   the linchpin of his dates, counting everything backwards from there.&#xD;&#xA;   (He does list a few historical occurrences *after* that event.)&#xD;&#xA; - Argyros George Argyrou's 2009 &quot;[Chronology of Greece and the Greek&#xD;&#xA;   Myths](http://www.argyrou.eclipse.co.uk/Chronology.htm)&quot; starts off&#xD;&#xA;   with the foundation of Atlantis and ends, in 30 BC, with the death&#xD;&#xA;   of Cleopatra and of Mark Antony.&#xD;&#xA; - HellenicaWorld consolidates information derived from the GML, from&#xD;&#xA;   Argyrou, and from Wikipedia, into its own &quot;[Mythical Chronology of&#xD;&#xA;   Greece](http://www.hellenicaworld.com/Greece/Mythology/en/MythicalChronology.html)&quot;, regarding which it says that:&#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;   &gt; &lt;sup&gt;This list largely reflects the work of Saint Jerome, whose work in&#xD;&#xA;   &gt; turn was based primarily on the analysis of Apollodorus, Diodorus&#xD;&#xA;   &gt; Siculus, and Eusebius... In a few cases, the chronology also reflects&#xD;&#xA;   &gt; the opinions of more recent scholars, who have cross referenced the&#xD;&#xA;   &gt; mythology to archeological discoveries.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;SPECIFICS&#xD;&#xA;---------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks to the fact that something like at least 95% of all the characters of Greek mythology are traceably related to one another, with most of them being either divine or royalty (or both), it is a fairly straightforward task to locate virtually any one of them within a particular city's king-list or within the lifetime of at least one other character, who will then inadvertently be connected to yet other personages.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Oedipus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Oedipus lived about a generation and a half before the Trojan War. We know this because the biggest conflict involving Greek mortals before the Trojan War was the expedition of the Seven Against Thebes. The cause of this contest was a quarrel between Eteocles and Polyneices over the throne of their father Oedipus. The young men who fought in the war of the Epigoni, ten years after that of the Seven Against Thebes, were among the Greek heroes of the Trojan War, which took place some years after the Epigoni had sacked Thebes. One of these Epigoni who went to Troy was Oedipus's grandson Thersander.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We can also deduce that the Argonautic expedition took place at some point during Oedipus' reign over Thebes because Heracles [Hercules] was Argonaut. Heracles was at some point married to Megara, a daughter of Creon, who had been regent king of Thebes just before Oedipus acceded to the throne. Moreover, after the attack of the Seven Against Thebes, Heracles had placed Laodamas, yet another grandson of Oedipus, on the throne of Thebes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See the GML's chart above for how Oedipus, Polyneices, and Thersander (the last of these being Polyneices' son, and Laodamas' cousin), fit into the overall royal Theban succession.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Wars of the Titans and the Giants**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The human race did not yet exist at the time of the Titanomachy, unless you count the version of the myth of the Five &quot;Ages&quot; of Man, in which the first race or breed of men was made of gold and lived during the reign of Cronus. Still, humans are not said to have participated in this war, and they are otherwise more commonly regarded as having been created by the Olympians, in a collaboration project with the Titan Prometheus, a good while after the end of the contest between Cronus and Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Gigantomachy took place during the lifetime of Heracles, thus about a generation before the Trojan War. Zeus, who, one generation earlier, had foreseen this war, brought Heracles to life specifically in order for him to aid the Olympians in this conflict, for it had been prophesied that the gods would be defeated unless there was a mortal who could assist them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Roman writer Hyginus claims that, according to the playwright Aeschylus, Zeus had imprisoned Prometheus on Mt Caucasus for thirty thousand years before Heracles freed the Titan. Using this time-frame it would mean that, since Prometheus was imprisoned only after the end of the Titanomachy, the war between Cronus and Zeus took place thirty millennia before the Giants' uprising against the Olympians. Of the resources listed above, only Carlson's Timeline refelcts this, placing the start of Prometheus' imprisonment at c. 31,270 BC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pausanias tantalisingly mentions that Heracles once fought against a giant named Thurius, while Tyndareus fought against a certain Eurytus, but then he refuses to narrate these events. There are several characters in Greek myth named Eurytus, and one of them is among the Giants of the Gigantomachy. If this is supposed to be the same as the one against whom Tyndareus fought, then Tyndareus would be the only other mortal, apart from Heracles, who is mentioned in connection with the Giants' War. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Granted, they could have engaged in combat before the Giants attacked the gods. There are, however, several other contemporaries of Tyndareus bearing this name who would serve as more plausible opponents for him, going by the other stories and adventures involving this particular hero. (It could just as easily be the *Centaur* Eurytus intended here by Pausanias.)    &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Births of Hephaestus and Athena**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The gods, particularly the Olympian ones, had dramatically brief childhoods. Surprisingly Zeus seems to be the exception here, who may have had a more ordinary human-length infancy and childhood. Conversely Zeus's children are described as having been born either full-grown (like Athena) or to have grown up in a matter of hours or just a few days (like Artemis and Apollo, and perhaps Hermes). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With this in mind I don't see the slightly different versions of Athena's birth presenting any difficulty for the timeline. Whoever happens to be older between Hephaestus and Athena, the likelihood is that their age difference is negligibly small either way (even if it's as big as a few years rather than just days). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Besides that, either version fits in neatly enough with the rest of the chronology, plus we have the alternative in which, if Hephaestus, for whatever reason, is an unavailable surgeon at Athena's birth, Apollodorus tells us that it was Prometheus instead who broke Zeus's head open in order to grant Athena her birth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whatever the case, by my guesstimate, all of the original Twelve Great Olympians—with the exception of Hermes—were born before the end of the Titanomachy, and so whichever combination of the drama involved in the births of Hephaestus and Athena would have happened within the nine years of the war, or before it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Horizon Lines**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How many generations Greek mythology spans would depend on how you define the end-point of the mythology. It blends fairly seamlessly into Roman mythology, wherein the only especially compelling deviation is the language and names of the characters, which become Latin, and Latinised. Nonetheless a chunk of the mythography regarding the foundation of Rome and the events leading up to it after the Trojan War comes from Greek sources writing in Roman times, still giving a very Greek perspective on what they are narrating. Dionysius of Halicarnassus, for example, is at great pains to emphasise the Greek origins of the Roman state and its peoples. Meanwhile Servius, commenting on Virgil's *Aeneid*, insists that the ancestors of the Dardanians and Trojans, who then in turn gave rise to the Romans, had themselves originally come from Italy rather than Greece. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond that there is the fact that the further into historical times that mythology encroaches, the more it blends in, transforming into &quot;legend&quot; and &quot;folklore.&quot; So for example, there are numerous tall tales about Alexander the Great (356 - 323 BC) which together make up a collection of fables known as the Alexander Romance. Included in the legends about him is the idea, apparently promoted even while he was still alive, that he was a son of Zeus. This technically makes him a character within what we call Greek mythology, and he is treated as such, e.g., in the *Recognitions* which are ascribed to Clement of Alexandria, where he is listed among other well-known children of Zeus, such as Epaphus, Tantalus and Sarpedon, all of whom, unlike Alexander, would have lived squarely within the &quot;mythical&quot; era.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then down into Christian times, as late as the 400s AD, there are stories of ordinary people encountering Centaurs, Satyrs and Tritons. Meanwhile in Modern Greek folklore, Nereids, the ancient goddesses of the Mediterranean Sea, together with other, more minor mythical creatures, have survived as supernatural creatures in much the same way that fairies are the old legendary Celtic phenomenon occupying the popular imagination of the British Isles (and inadvertently having been exported from thence pretty much all over the world).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Often a clear end-point, if one must have such a thing, comes at the conclusion of a particular city's king-list. It's fairly easy to note where the monarchs of a certain state stop being mythical personages and start being historical figures. The lineage of Alexander the Great, for example, places the Macedonian conqueror about fourteen generations away from Karanos [Caranus], the founder of the Argead dynasty and first ruler of the historical kingdom of Macedon, who reigned four centuries before Alexander's time. Karanos is purported to have been a son of Temenus, who in turn was a great-great-grandson of the mighty Heracles himself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So in this instance one might say that the mythology &quot;ends&quot; with the adventures of Temenus and of his contemporaries in other city-states who are said have been the fathers of the &quot;historical&quot; kings in places such as Messenia, Sparta, Athens and Ionia, c. 800 BC, about half a century before Romulus and Remus, the twin sons of the Italian god Mars, found Rome. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**How Many Generations?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Counting up the generations on the GML chart, starting with Phoroneus, whose subjects in Argos claimed that he was the first man, down to Tarquinius Superbus in Rome, gives us roughly forty generations. Note, however, that this does not include the majority of the thirty thousand years which Hyginus gives us between the Titanomachy and the time of Heracles, during which time, according to one interpretation of Hesiod's *Works and Days*, the earth would have been populated by successive breeds of generally nameless golden, silver and bronze men, prior to the advent of the Age of Heroes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, according to the information provided by Plato's *Critias* dialogue, the kingdom of Atlantis would have been founded at least seven thousand years earlier than the 2094 BC date which Argyrou's Chronology supplies for it; and Athens is apparently just as old as Atlantis. The first inhabitants of Atlantis were Autochthons (people born from the ground) whose daughter married the sea-god Poseidon; a number of variant origin myths about Athens consistently present all of its first kings as Autochthons also.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Heroes Born Before the Olympians**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are a few stories regarding the childhoods of some of the Olympian deities in which they are reared by mortal heroes, which does indeed mean that there are, in at least some versions of the mythology, heroes who are in fact older than the Olympians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to one tradition, Athena was raised in the Boeotian village of Alalcomenia by the man after whom the place was named, a certain Alalcomenes or Alalcomeneus, who was a local Autochthon, whose wife was called Athenaïs and whose son was named Glaucopus, &quot;Grey-Eyed,&quot; a feature he apparently shared with the goddess. From her foster father the deity was known as Athena Alalcomenia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In their two different *Metamorphoses* epics, Ovid, and Antoninus Liberalis, respectively, contradict what I say above regarding the human race not existing during the Titans' War. A rabble of Lycian peasants is said to have mistreated the Titaness Leto when she was pregnant with her twins Apollo and Artemis, for which she punished these men by turning them into the first frogs. Since I place the birth of these twin deities during the Titanomachy, my explanation is that the peasants, like Alalcomenes and the first Atlanteans, were Autochthons, and thus sort of human, but not the general rendition thereof which came later under the auspices of Prometheus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;During Hermes' adventures of thievery on the same day in which he was born, he turned an old man named Battus to stone after he discovered that he couldn't trust the man not to tell on him for stealing Apollo's cattle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyginus reports the wildly contradictory story which says that a pair of nymphs named Aex and Helice nursed Zeus when the god was a baby. The problem is that the nymphs were the daughters of a certain Olenus who was a son of Hephaestus, who we know was Zeus's own son (or at least the son of Zeus' wife Hera)! How Zeus's own great-granddaughters (or great-great-nieces) are taking care of him in his infancy is not explained. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Alternatively Zeus is said to have been reared by Amaltheia, daughter of Haemonius; or by the daughters of a Cretan king called Melisseus. Theoi.com interprets the names of these mysterious men as belonging to some of the Curetes and Dactyls who are usually ascribed with having looked after the infant god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dionysus and Heracles, both of whom became gods, according to Diodorus Siculus, were each granted the title of &quot;Olympian&quot; by their father Zeus. Both of them were born to mortal women somewhere in the middle of the aforementioned forty-generation time-span and are therefore younger than numerous other heroes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;            &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/l2Unu.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21785" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6493" RevisionGUID="4331b887-f8bc-49cc-9ee2-094f926ce459" CreationDate="2020-07-26T03:47:25.153" UserId="7117" Text="**Epimetheus:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;His name literally means afterthought. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epimetheus The brother of Prometheus, he never thought about the consequences of his actions, but instead reacted to things as they occurred. He and Prometheus were entrusted with the box containing all the evils of the world, and Epimetheus was warned by his brother not to accept gifts from the gods, who wanted to punish mankind for their crimes. Yet when the gods offered Pandora as a gift, he readily accepted (and we all know how that turned out.) Epimetheus was not really evil, he just didn't think and got in endless trouble because of it." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21786" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6494" RevisionGUID="f2e6daaa-6954-4460-9bfb-0e0b6df08af2" CreationDate="2020-07-26T04:04:35.630" UserId="3307" Text="It seems to be more a societal caste than something inspired by their mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Higgins [*The Celtic Druids* p. 187][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Druidesses were divided into three classes. The first were those who had vowed perpetual virginity, and lived together in communities separate from the world. Mela† gives a description of one of these nunneries. It was situated on an island in the British sea, and contained nine of them. Strange accounts are told of their magical incantations, &amp;c. &amp;c., just what, under the circumstances, might be expected. They are said to have pretended to possess an oracle. The second class were married, but spent their time in company with the Druids, and in the offices of religion; having conversation only occasionally with their husbands. The third class was the lowest, and were, in fact, only servants in the temples and attendants on the Druids.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[St. Brigid][2] belonged to the first class, being a Chief Druidess before her conversion to Christianity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://archive.org/details/b22010294/page/187/mode/2up&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://isidore.co/calibre#panel=book_details&amp;book_id=7938" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21787" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6483" RevisionGUID="208cbd56-308f-4ba4-af86-71f297f08d32" CreationDate="2020-07-26T12:32:08.813" UserId="5726" Comment="removed unnecessary capital letter and sentence" Text="Since this is certainly a common theme, I'm wondering if there is a myth about someone who ignorantly walks themselves repeatedly into ill-fate or their own misery. It would be like Sisyphus, but instead of being cursed to move the boulder, he did it on his own will and just repeatedly crushes himself with the boulder. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It can be really from any origin, I'm just convinced there has to be some myth that fits this theme, considering how much it plays out in modern life, and how accurate many myths were at describing things that... well, often play out in life. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know this question is super broad but something tells me there has to be something pretty accurate out there. Thank you! " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21788" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6492" RevisionGUID="9561465a-fbf2-41b7-acd7-05f02421deed" CreationDate="2020-07-26T12:46:31.857" UserId="7117" Comment="add detail" Text="Castor and Pollux, Helen and Clytemnestra are considered twins, and may or may not have hatched from eggs laid by Nemesis after being impregnated by her father Zeus as swans. I am having a hard time finding references for other gods or god-like beings that laid eggs, that were then hatched by humans (in this case, Leda), and (preferably) gave rise to twins. Does anyone know of other global mythologies that closely match this story? I'm flexible on comparisons, but the more obscure and less Greco-Roman, the better. Ideally they would tie together twins, gods as birds, and children raised by humans. I am new to this sight, so if I'm missing any protocols, please let me know and I will modify my question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;PS Dragons and dragon-like beings can substitute for birds since they are winged and lay eggs." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21789" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6353" RevisionGUID="e636d683-ebf8-41c2-80af-67f9e938e2c5" CreationDate="2020-07-26T18:24:14.433" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected spelling, fixed grammar, improved formatting &amp; added some info" Text="**Cold Hard Cash**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The overwhelmingly predominant interpretation, at least starting from the 1st century BC, is that the gold = money, although this view started out, it seems, simply as an accusation potentially made by Danae's father Acrisius in Euripides' (now fragmentary) tragedy *Danae* a few centuries prior to that. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In what we know from other sources, Danae swears to Acrisius that her child has been sired by Zeus but Acrisius refuses to believe it, thinking it must be some rich mortal man, or such the like, who paid with gold for her favours. The myth provided much fodder for comedians, who took the accusation and ran with it, except that in their jabs it really *is* Zeus who is paying to have Danae consort with him, and thus the divine gold explicitly becomes gold *coinage*, such as is claimed by Antipater of Thessalonica and by Parmenion in the *Greek Anthology* (as cited by yannis in his Answer).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Comedic though these writings are, they are nonetheless, attempts to rationalise away a fantastical element of the tale while still keeping Zeus in the picture as the perpetrator of this prostitution (allowing the writers to have their cake and eat it too). If, however, we're looking for a less rationalist-symbolic and more in-universe answer to the question, the aforementioned Antipater points the way, incidentally, if not necessarily deliberately.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Primordial Golden Man of the First Era**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Antipater alludes to the epic myth, narrated by Hesiod and others, of different successive phases or breeds of men in primordial times, the first three of whom were made of gold, silver and then bronze. According to Hesiod's *Works and Days*, the first stock of men, made of gold, lived in the time of Zeus' father the Titan Kronos, and it seems that their time ended together with Kronos' reign. The silver men who replaced the gold ones were destroyed by Zeus and in turn were replaced by men of bronze prior to the Phase of Heroes (Zeus' and Danae's son Perseus being one of these heroes).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Antipater reduces all of this into a metaphor for the varying degrees of financial ability to pay in order to be &quot;honoured&quot; by Cythereia (i.e. Aphrodite, the goddess of sex). Maria Kanellou comments on this, saying&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Antipater of Thessalonica cleverly blends together the concepts&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of golden Aphrodite, the golden age of the human race, and Zeus’&#xD;&#xA;&gt; metamorphosis into gold. Aphrodite, the patroness of hetaerae, is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; constantly described as golden from Homer onwards, and in Antipater&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *AP* 5.30 = *GPh* 6 the speaker humorously argues that the epic poet rightly attributed the epithet to Aphrodite since one cannot have sex&#xD;&#xA;&gt; if one does not pay. In *AP* 5.31, Antipater expands on this idea, as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aphrodite is not just golden but also brazen and silver.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;The adjective ‘golden’ joins together the two myths and makes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; easy the transition from the golden race of men to the golden client&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and then golden Zeus and the allegation that he paid 100 golden coins&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to have sex with Danae.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Plato's *Cratylus* 398a, Socrates argues that when Hesiod calls the first mortal men &quot;golden&quot; he simply means that they were &quot;good and beautiful.&quot; Apollodorus, and Apollonius Rhodius, however, give a report to the effect that the more general (rather than Platonic philosophical) belief was that different types of metallic men had actually lived on Earth back in the day, for both authors say that Talos, the gigantic brazen sentinel of Crete Island, is supposed to have been a survivor of the time of the bronze breed of men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is therefore quite plausible that Zeus appeared to Danae as one of the golden men of the *Works and Days*: the best men, from the paradisaical first stage in the history of mortals. When this group of men died out, say Lines 121-125 of this poem, the Earth covered them over and they became benevolent surface-dwelling *daimones* [daemons] who roamed all over the world, &quot;clothed in mist&quot; as they kept watch over humankind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many points of resonance between that and Danae's impregnation narrative, in the latter of which: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - according to the oldest accounts thereof, her prison is located underground&#xD;&#xA;   (the direction in which the golden men have gone upon their demise);&#xD;&#xA; - she goes under the earth and thereafter is restored to the upper world from which she came, while Zeus descends into her chamber and then disappears thereafter, as mysteriously as he arrived (like the mist in which the golden *daimones* are enveloped); and&#xD;&#xA; - she is eventually rescued from the sea, courtesy of the watchfulness of Zeus (according to Hyginus), having given birth to a hero who delivers from harm (like the *daimones* are said to do).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Foreshadowing the Hero**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It might at first seem far-fetched to think that, consequently, Perseus was partially golden himself, but perhaps it warrants some consideration when noticing the manner in which the theme of gold crops up at nearly every highlight of this hero's career, upon more of which we arrive further below. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After Perseus dies his father places him into the sky as the constellation which bears his name. In Seneca's *Hercules Furens*, the dead hero's divine stepmother refers to him as &quot;golden Perseus&quot;. She might be referring to the celestial star-cluster into which he has been made, or she could mean that the mortal man was himself, in some way, composed of the precious substance in view here. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Antipater, and his fellow epigrammatist Paul the Silentiary, and virtually every commentator on the story since their time have noted the juxtaposition of the gold into which Zeus transforms over against the cell of bronze within which Acrisius has imprisoned Danae, and which becomes the place where the golden Zeus impregnates the princess with Perseus. For them, however, the significance of the comparison between the two metals is simply as sexual innuendo or, at most, as symbolism representing the power of bribery over the toughest of obstacles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The appearance of these substances at the beginning of Perseus' story, however, not only hearkens to Antipater's allusion to Hesiod's metal men, but it also sets up a thematic undercurrent in Perseus' adventures, which begin as soon as he is born. According to *Danae's Lament*, composed by the poet Simonides, the wooden chest which Acrisius casts into the sea, containing our &quot;golden boy&quot; Perseus together with his mother, is bolted with bronze. (According to Hesiod and Apollonius, the bronze stock of men was born from ash-trees, and so these mortals were probably partially wooden as well.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Gorgons, against whom Perseus contends, have bronze hands and golden wings, and one of the creatures born from the blood spilled by Perseus upon his beheading of Medusa is named Chrysaor, &quot;Golden Blade,&quot; because he is born wielding a golden sword. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his mission against the Gorgons, Perseus is outfitted with a bronze shield. In Hesiod's *Shield of Heracles*, Perseus appears upon the titular shield in the form of a fully golden man over whose shoulders is slung a sword &quot;by a cross-belt of bronze.&quot; (The magic satchel he carries is silver, tricked out with golden tassels.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his encounter with Atlas in Libya, the conflict between him and the Titan is on account of Atlas' dread that a son of Zeus is destined to steal his golden apples. According to Hesiod's *Theogony*, Atlas dwells at the edge of the Earth, by the entrance to the Underworld where Night meets Day across a threshold of bronze. (In the same poem, Chrysaor's father Poseidon is closely associated with the bronze of the Underworld.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Freedom and Transcendence**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The bronze of Danae's prison, from ancient into Renaissance times, has typically been interpreted to represent restriction and prohibition, and it surely does stand in for these things. In that case the gold, whether we interpret it as something as mundane as money or as supernatural as a gigantic primaeval golden man, symbolises freedom for Danae.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For Perseus it introduces his worth: the hardiness making him equal to the task of going up against literally metallic monsters. It also represents transcendence: just as the Gorgons' golden wings allow them to fly, so too shall Perseus be a hero who can literally take to the skies, and having started out being born in a dungeon and nearly drowned at a tender age, he traverses the entire world, from the western edge of the cosmos in Libya to the land of the Hyperboreans in the north, and unto Ethiopia in the south. According to Hyginus, his translation into the sky as a constellation means that he also transcends death itself to become one of the immortals: Seneca's &quot;golden Perseus&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sunlight**    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Citing Ovid, Horace and the Vatican Mythographers, Ioanna Karamanou notes&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; that &quot;Certain Latin sources refer to Danae’s imprisonment in a tower rather than a chamber&quot;. This becomes the preferred version for Christian commentators on the story, upon whose work Madlyn Millner Kahr elaborates&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; as follows in her article &quot;Danaë: Virtuous, Voluptuous, Venal Woman.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;In the twelfth century, the allegorical interpretation of myths&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was already well established in the service of Christian moral&#xD;&#xA;&gt; teachings. Danaë became a symbol of modesty, *Pudicitia*, and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tower that protected her virtue represented Chastity. Danaë even&#xD;&#xA;&gt; served as a parallel to the Virgin Mary in a Moralized Ovid as early&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as 1328.&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Some sixty years later the Dominican monk, Franciscus de Retza,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wrote: &quot;If Danaë conceived from Jupiter through a golden shower, why&#xD;&#xA;&gt; should the Virgin not give birth when impregnated by the Holy Spirit?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ... A woodcut&lt;sup&gt;✭&lt;/sup&gt; in the first Basel edition (ca. 1490) of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Franciscus de Retza's *Defensorium Inviolatae Virginitatis Marie*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shows the chaste Danaë leaning out of the window of her tower, which&#xD;&#xA;&gt; resembles a chessman more than a prison. The germinating power of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sun represents Jove's golden shower...&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Allegorical interpretations based on the tradition of the chaste&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Danaë also survived in Renaissance texts. Pierio Valeriano wrote: &quot;The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; poets related that gold poured into the lap of Danaë, the most&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beautiful of women. They mean by 'Danaë' the beauty of the soul, which&#xD;&#xA;&gt; comprises the natural virtues that God loves; indeed, they signify by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the 'golden shower' the abundant flow of heavenly favor, which must be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sought from the love and mercy of God...&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Retza Danae 1490 woodcut][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;✭ Kahr inserts a reference here to this image (above), which appears as &quot;Fig. 1&quot; in her article, also going on to say&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; that:&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Of all the sixteenth-century examples, the Danaë in 1527 by Jan&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gossaert&lt;sup&gt;✭✭&lt;/sup&gt; was the most explicitly a &quot;good Danaë&quot; in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tradition of the medieval *Pudicitia* type. Gossaert's Danaë&#xD;&#xA;&gt; represents a direct parallel to the Virgin of Humility. Her robe is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; blue, a color associated with the Virgin Mary. She wears a delicate&#xD;&#xA;&gt; diadem, like that worn by the Madonna in Gossaert's painting in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Prague, *Saint Luke Painting the Virgin*. Though humble, Mary is Queen&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Heaven, and Danaë is a princess. Danaë's exposed breast might link&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her with *Maria lactans*, mother of all, although the breast, like her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bare legs, could also be construed as sexually suggestive. She sits on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cushions on the floor, a token of her humility in the presence of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; divinity, toward whose manifestation she lifts her eyes. In her skirt&#xD;&#xA;&gt; she collects the drops of gold that stream into her lap from above.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Her airy environment suggests grandeur rather than imprisonment, an&#xD;&#xA;&gt; impression strengthened by the fact that other imposing buildings are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; visible between the graceful Renaissance columns of her chamber.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jove's golden presence recalls the medieval association of gold with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the highest Christian values.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Gossaert Danae][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;✭✭ A reference to &quot;Fig. 2,&quot; a copy&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; of this painting (above) is inserted here in Kahr's article.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the 21st century AD, at least two paintings, Gene Gould's *Danae* and Kyle Staver's *Danae and the Parakeet*, actually depict the shower upon the princess as real rays of sunlight.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Returning to the older configuration of the myth, if Zeus's descent *underground*, into Danae's dungeon (rather than into a tower), happened to go via the chamber's roof and cause damage to it, he may have brought actual sunlight into the cell, which, depending on the design, may not have previously had access to natural light. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the &quot;magical impregnation&quot; article&lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt; of the *Funk &amp; Wagnalls Standard Dictionary of Folklore, Mythology and Legend*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Widespread, in Siberia, Oceania, Latin America, Africa, China,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; North America, is the belief in the fertilizing power of the sun’s&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rays falling on a woman. Not only is this reflected in the mythology&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of these regions, but in  practice great care is taken to keep girls,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; especially in their first menstruation, away from all contact with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sunlight... Some such belief  and practice may underlie the Danae&#xD;&#xA;&gt; story, for sunlight and gold are often synonymous in imagery, and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; seclusion of the girl who nevertheless is impregnated by the sun's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rays may easily be read into the myth.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Rain**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Somewhat offhandedly, Footnote 20 of Kahr's article says&lt;sup&gt;7&lt;/sup&gt; that &quot;Danaë is also associated with Mother Earth, requiring rain for germination.&quot; She does not elaborate further on this at all, but it seems that it is an opinion shared by Robert Graves, who also links Zeus in this story to the sun. On pp. 243-244 of *The Greek Myths* (1960, Penguin Books) he claims that&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zeus's impregnation of Danaë with a shower of gold must refer to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ritual marriage of the Sun and Moon... It can also be read as a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; pastoral allegory: 'water is gold' for the shepherd, and Zeus sends&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thunder-showers on the earth – Danaë.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Notes***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. See p. 261 of *Greek Epigram from the Hellenistic to the Early Byzantine Era*, Edited by Maria Kanellou, Ivana Petrovic, &amp; Chris Carey (2019), Oxford University Press, United Kingdom.  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; The relevant section is Ch. 15 of this book (pp. 249-271), written by Kanellou, and entitled &quot;Mythological Burlesque and Satire in Greek Epigram—A Case Study: Zeus’ Seduction of Danae.&quot;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. From p. 9 of her January 2005 Doctoral Thesis &quot;A Commentary on Euripides' *Danae* and *Dictys*&quot; in University College London's Department of Greek and Latin, Published by ProQuest LLC, 2013, Ann Arbor, MI.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. In *The Art Bulletin* Vol. 60, No. 1 (Mar., 1978), pp. 43-55. (Quotes taken specifically from p. 44).&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;4. Ibid, pp. 45-46.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;5. MrArifnajafov. 8 February 2012, &quot;Jan Gossaert gen. Mabuse (1478-1532) Danae (1527),&quot; Privatarchiv Foto von MrArifnajafov fotografiert, viewed 9 May 2020, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Danae_(1527).JPG&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;6. On p. 661 of *Volume Two: J-Z*, Ed. Maria Leach &amp; Jerome Fried (1950), the Funk &amp; Wagnalls Company, New York.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;7. *The Art Bulletin* Vol. 60, No. 1 (Mar., 1978), p. 46.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Fq3xE.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/47MX6.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21790" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6495" RevisionGUID="41d92ced-9ce1-435d-bc3c-4afe28c24a92" CreationDate="2020-07-26T19:48:35.940" UserId="7117" Text="**1950's conservative**:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While I'm not an expert, from what I can find, the Aztecs had an attitude about sex that would have fit in the 1950's. Virginity was expected of women when they married, less so for men. Prostitutes were semi-official, but infidelity was punishable by death, as was homosexuality or sodomy of any kind. Naturally, &quot;punishable by death&quot; takes on a gruesome definition for the Aztecs; read up on it at your own peril.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It looks like there had been a thought at one point historically that virginity had something to do with human sacrifice, but the attitude on the subject has changed. Also, a lot of the understanding of Aztec sexuality has been filtered through the Catholic church, which documented much of Aztec practice. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21792" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6494" RevisionGUID="60083bea-ede2-4d45-afac-d7fa2b33cd63" CreationDate="2020-07-27T20:23:09.233" UserId="3307" Comment="added 86 characters in body" Text="It seems to be more a societal caste than something inspired by their mythology, although virginity has been associated in many cultures with the ability to prophecy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Higgins [*The Celtic Druids* p. 187][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Druidesses were divided into three classes. The first were those who had vowed perpetual virginity, and lived together in communities separate from the world. Mela† gives a description of one of these nunneries. It was situated on an island in the British sea, and contained nine of them. Strange accounts are told of their magical incantations, &amp;c. &amp;c., just what, under the circumstances, might be expected. They are said to have pretended to possess an oracle. The second class were married, but spent their time in company with the Druids, and in the offices of religion; having conversation only occasionally with their husbands. The third class was the lowest, and were, in fact, only servants in the temples and attendants on the Druids.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[St. Brigid][2] belonged to the first class, being a Chief Druidess before her conversion to Christianity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://archive.org/details/b22010294/page/187/mode/2up&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://isidore.co/calibre#panel=book_details&amp;book_id=7938" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21793" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6494" RevisionGUID="a6aa833b-819e-42e9-94fb-f700234d0741" CreationDate="2020-07-27T22:41:35.767" UserId="5726" Comment="edited body" Text="It seems to be more a societal caste than something inspired by their mythology. Although virginity has been associated in many cultures with the ability of prophecy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Higgins [*The Celtic Druids* p. 187][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Druidesses were divided into three classes. The first were those who had vowed perpetual virginity, and lived together in communities separate from the world. Mela† gives a description of one of these nunneries. It was situated on an island in the British sea, and contained nine of them. Strange accounts are told of their magical incantations, &amp;c. &amp;c., just what, under the circumstances, might be expected. They are said to have pretended to possess an oracle. The second class were married, but spent their time in company with the Druids, and in the offices of religion; having conversation only occasionally with their husbands. The third class was the lowest, and were, in fact, only servants in the temples and attendants on the Druids.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[St. Brigid][2] belonged to the first class, being a Chief Druidess before her conversion to Christianity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://archive.org/details/b22010294/page/187/mode/2up&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://isidore.co/calibre#panel=book_details&amp;book_id=7938" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21794" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6495" RevisionGUID="c28e5510-8202-444e-9efe-76c948089258" CreationDate="2020-07-28T00:23:17.057" UserId="7117" Comment="added 109 characters in body" Text="**1950's conservative**:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While I'm not an expert, from what I can find, the Aztecs had an attitude about sex that would have fit in the 1950's. Virginity was expected of women when they married, less so for men. Prostitutes were semi-official, but infidelity was punishable by death, as was homosexuality or sodomy of any kind. Naturally, &quot;punishable by death&quot; takes on a gruesome definition for the Aztecs; read up on it at your own peril.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It looks like there had been a thought at one point historically that virginity had something to do with human sacrifice, but the attitude on the subject has changed. Also, a lot of the understanding of Aztec sexuality has been filtered through the Catholic church, which documented much of Aztec practice. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://historycollection.com/16-enlightening-truths-about-how-the-aztec-culture-handled-their-desires/&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://www.ranker.com/list/love-and-relationships-in-aztec-empire/katia-kleyman&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Aztec_civilization&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21795" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6496" RevisionGUID="25d45b4b-a6b9-435e-86a7-e2d9df396c52" CreationDate="2020-07-28T20:51:55.500" UserDisplayName="user7122" Text="**Horus-Aha**&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Hor-Aha (or Aha or Horus Aha) is considered the second pharaoh of the First Dynasty of Egypt by some Egyptologists, others consider him the first one and corresponding to Menes. He lived around the 31st century BC and is thought to have had a long reign.&#xD;&#xA;[Horus-Aha][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Horus the Deity**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Horus or Her, Heru, Hor, Har in Ancient Egyptian, is one of the most significant ancient Egyptian deities who served many functions, most notably god of kingship and the sky. He was worshipped from at least the late prehistoric Egypt until the Ptolemaic Kingdom and Roman Egypt.&#xD;&#xA;[Horus the Deity][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hor-Aha#Activities_outside_Egypt&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So did the Historical Horus-Aha, pre-date Horus the Deity?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21796" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6496" RevisionGUID="25d45b4b-a6b9-435e-86a7-e2d9df396c52" CreationDate="2020-07-28T20:51:55.500" UserDisplayName="user7122" Text="Who came first, Egyptian pharoah Horus-Aha 3100bc, or, Horus the Deity?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21797" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6496" RevisionGUID="25d45b4b-a6b9-435e-86a7-e2d9df396c52" CreationDate="2020-07-28T20:51:55.500" UserDisplayName="user7122" Text="|egyptian|underworld|mythohistory|history|abrahamic-religions|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21813" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6505" RevisionGUID="009129d6-0306-429b-a935-2048dd802f74" CreationDate="2020-07-29T02:08:03.273" UserDisplayName="user7122" Text="**Eannatum**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Eannatum (Sumerian:  É.AN.NA-tum2) was a Sumerian Ensi (ruler or king) of Lagash circa 2500–2400 BCE. He established one of the first verifiable empires in history: he subdued Elam and destroyed the city of Susa as well as several other Iranian cities, and extended his domain to Sumer and Akkad.[1] One inscription found on a boulder states that Eannatum was his Sumerian name, while his &quot;Tidnu&quot; (Amorite) name was Lumma.&#xD;&#xA;[Eannatum][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Adam**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Adam (Hebrew: אָדָם, Modern: ʼAdam, Tiberian: ʾĀḏām; Arabic: آدَم‎, romanized: ʾĀdam; Greek: Ἀδάμ, romanized: Adám; Latin: Adam) is a figure in the Book of Genesis in the Hebrew Bible, from where he was adopted into Christian belief and the Quran. According to the creation myth[1] of the Abrahamic religions, he was the first man. In both Genesis and Quran, Adam and his wife were expelled from a Garden of Eden for eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.&#xD;&#xA;[Adam][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, can anyone please find the similarities that would suggest Adam, is in fact, Eannatum, and that both the biblical literalists &amp; Scientists, are equally, wrong? And there is in fact no Adam, but, an Eannatum?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Various forms of creationism and biblical literalism consider Adam to be a historical person. Scientific evidence does not support the idea that the entire human population descends from a single man.&#xD;&#xA;[So the question is, can it be proven beyond doubt, that the story of Adam, was taken from Eannatum?][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eannatum&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21814" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6505" RevisionGUID="009129d6-0306-429b-a935-2048dd802f74" CreationDate="2020-07-29T02:08:03.273" UserDisplayName="user7122" Text="Was Eannatum, the real historical figure that was characterised as Adam, in the Garden of Eden narrative?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21815" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6505" RevisionGUID="009129d6-0306-429b-a935-2048dd802f74" CreationDate="2020-07-29T02:08:03.273" UserDisplayName="user7122" Text="|mythohistory|history|mesopotamia|bible|abrahamic-religions|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21818" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6507" RevisionGUID="3da70941-8592-4b6f-a49b-c8179f1b2236" CreationDate="2020-07-29T03:35:27.327" UserDisplayName="user7122" Text="**Hyksos**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Hyksos (/ˈhɪksɒs/; Egyptian ḥqꜣ(w)-ḫꜣswt, Egyptological pronunciation: hekau khasut,[4] &quot;ruler(s) of foreign lands&quot;; Ancient Greek: Ὑκσώς, Ὑξώς) were people of probable Levantine origin,[1][5] who established the Fifteenth Dynasty of Egypt (1650–1550 BC)[a] based at the city of Avaris in the Nile delta, from where they ruled the northern part of the country. While the Hellenistic Egyptian historian Manetho portrayed the Hyksos as invaders and oppressors, modern Egyptology no longer believes that the Hyksos conquered Egypt in an invasion.[9] Instead, Hyksos rule had been preceded by groups of Canaanite peoples settled in the eastern delta who probably seceded from central Egyptian control near the end of the Thirteenth Dynasty.[10]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Hyksos period marks the first in which Egypt was ruled by foreign rulers.[11] Many details of their rule, such as the true extent of their kingdom and even the names and order of their kings, remain uncertain. The Hyksos practiced many Levantine or Canaanite customs, but also many Egyptian customs.[12] They have been credited with introducing several technological innovations to Egypt, such as the horse and chariot, as well as the sickle sword and the composite bow, but this theory is disputed.[13]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Hyksos did not control all of Egypt. Instead, they coexisted with the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Dynasties, which were based in Thebes.[14] Warfare between the Hyksos and the pharaohs of the late Seventeenth Dynasty eventually culminated in the defeat of the Hyksos by Ahmose I, who founded the Eighteenth Dynasty of Egypt.[15] In the following centuries, the Egyptians would portray the Hyksos as bloodthirsty and oppressive foreign rulers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Josephus associated the Hyksos with the Exodus of the Israelites from Egypt. Many modern scholars believe the Hyksos may have partially inspired the Biblical account.&#xD;&#xA;[Hyksos][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Exodus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Book of Exodus is the second book of the Bible. It describes the Israelites' deliverance from slavery in Egypt through the hand of Yahweh, the leadership of Moses, the revelations at the biblical Mount Sinai, and the subsequent &quot;divine indwelling&quot; of God with Israel.[1]&#xD;&#xA;[The Exodus][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Conquest of the Hyksos**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Rhind Papyrus illustrates some of Ahmose's military strategy when attacking the Delta. Entering Heliopolis in July, he moved down the eastern delta to take Tjaru, the major border fortification on the Horus Road, the road from Egypt to Canaan, in October, totally avoiding Avaris. In taking Tjaru[27] he cut off all traffic between Canaan and Avaris. This indicates he was planning a blockade of Avaris, isolating the Hyksos capital from help or supplies coming from Canaan.[31]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Records of the latter part of the campaign were discovered on the tomb walls of a participating soldier, Ahmose, son of Ebana. These records indicate that Ahmose I led three attacks against Avaris, the Hyksos capital, but also had to quell a small rebellion further south in Egypt. After this, in the fourth attack, he conquered the city.[32] He completed his victory over the Hyksos by conquering their stronghold Sharuhen near Gaza after a three-year siege.[16][33] Ahmose would have conquered Avaris by the 18th or 19th year of his reign at the very latest. This is suggested by &quot;a graffito in the quarry at Tura whereby 'oxen from Canaan' were used at the opening of the quarry in Ahmose's regnal year 22.&quot;[34] Since the cattle would probably have been imported after Ahmose's siege of the town of Sharuhen which followed the fall of Avaris, this means that the reign of Khamudi must have terminated by Year 18 or 19 of Ahmose's 25-year reign at the very latest.[34]&#xD;&#xA;[Conquest of the Hyksos][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Simplified**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In simple terms, foreigners from Canaan became the first ever non Egyptians to take rulership of Egypt.&#xD;&#xA;However, their reign was short lived, and there was an Egyptian uprising, and Pharoah Ahmose I led a successful revolt against the Canaanites and expelled them from Egypt, thus, overthrowing them during a large military coup.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The question is, does this account for the Exodus biblical narrative?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyksos&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Exodus&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmose_I#Conquest_of_the_Hyksos" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21819" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="6507" RevisionGUID="3da70941-8592-4b6f-a49b-c8179f1b2236" CreationDate="2020-07-29T03:35:27.327" UserDisplayName="user7122" Text="Was the historical Hyksos account, the real story behind the biblical exodus narrative?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21820" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="6507" RevisionGUID="3da70941-8592-4b6f-a49b-c8179f1b2236" CreationDate="2020-07-29T03:35:27.327" UserDisplayName="user7122" Text="|egyptian|mythohistory|history|bible|abrahamic-religions|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21823" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6509" RevisionGUID="0e99c3d4-8ef2-4377-8fb5-adc888ffcd66" CreationDate="2020-07-29T11:36:05.863" UserId="5511" Text="Short answer: no, Hor-Aha did not pre-date the first mention of the deity Horus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Long answer: Aha is according to Egyptology either: &#xD;&#xA; - The second Pharaoh of the first dynasty, or&#xD;&#xA; - Another name for Nemes, the first Pharaoh of the first dynasty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regardless of whether he was the same as or the successor of Nemes, the name *Hor-Ahah* is what is called a  [Horus Name][1]. Pharaohs had many titles and names, including a *Horus Name*, as they claim to be direct descendants of the deity. This practice was already in place before the first dynasty, then applied to local kings. The practice originates in prehistoric times. Many of the oldest-known Egyptian pharaohs were known only by this title.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Horus name was usually written in a serekh, a representation of a palace façade. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The name of the pharaoh was written in hieroglyphs inside this representation of a palace. Typically an image of the falcon god Horus was perched on top of or beside it. The pharaoh had many other names bestowed. As an example, the full titulary of Eighteenth Dynasty pharaoh Hatshepsut, providing a guide to pronunciation and its equivalent meaning and showing the differences since this pharaoh is a woman, is as follows,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Horus name: Wesretkau, &quot;Mighty of Kas&quot;&#xD;&#xA; - Nebty name: Wadjrenput, &quot;She of the Two Ladies, Flourishing of years&quot;&#xD;&#xA; - Golden Horus: Netjeretkhau, &quot;Divine of appearance&quot; (Netjeret is the feminine form of netery meaning 'godly' or 'divine', and khau, 'appearances')&#xD;&#xA; - Praenomen: Maatkare, &quot;Truth [Ma'at] is the Ka of Re&quot;&#xD;&#xA; - Nomen: Khnumt-Amun Hatshepsut, &quot;Joined with Amun, Foremost of Noble Ladies&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since the practice dates back to pre-dynastic times, the deity Horus is by definition older than the name *Hor-Aha*. The earliest recorded form of Horus is the tutelary deity of Nekhen in Upper Egypt. Nekhen was the religious and political capital of Upper Egypt in prehistoric Egypt. The first settlement at Nekhen dates from either the predynastic Amratian culture (c. 4400 BC) or, perhaps, during the late Badari culture (c. 5000 BC). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Amratian culture (also called Naqada) developed new styles of pottery and more intricate carving. Many animal-shaped and shield-shaped palettes (used for mixing cosmetics) have been recovered. They form a clear link in development towards the ceremonial palettes of the early dynastic period (eg the Narmer palette). They also developed their skills in metalworking, in particular copper which they traded with the ancient peoples of Mesopotamia and Asia. The introduction of cylindrical seals (a typically Mesopotamiam device) showed that their culture was influenced by their neighbours, but the familiar Egyptian gods Hathor, Ra and Horus also date to this period. So the first depictions of the deity Horus actually pre-date Hor-Aha by possibly as much as 1300 years.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_royal_titulary#Horus_name&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/sBJa6.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21824" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6510" RevisionGUID="f95de800-7ac6-4b65-8061-d08baf75f957" CreationDate="2020-07-29T14:16:43.180" UserId="7127" Text="it has got to be St. Christopher.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://www.cassandragoad.com/jewellery/pendants-charms/extra-large-st-christopher-gold-pendant&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That was fun to figure out, thanks. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The best, W.D.S" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21825" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6510" RevisionGUID="a1aa529c-56e8-4187-99ac-c7fe812059d4" CreationDate="2020-07-29T14:58:08.470" UserId="7127" Comment="added 91 characters in body" Text="it has got to be St. Christopher.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://www.cassandragoad.com/jewellery/pendants-charms/extra-large-st-christopher-gold-pendant&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That was fun to figure out, thanks. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The best, W.D.S&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/7en33.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21826" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6510" RevisionGUID="d5007eec-5fdc-4ad4-9af0-2686d16df475" CreationDate="2020-07-29T16:24:14.570" UserId="7127" Comment="added 125 characters in body" Text="it has got to be St. Christopher.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://www.cassandragoad.com/jewellery/pendants-charms/extra-large-st-christopher-gold-pendant&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(For the person downvoting this: )&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That was fun to figure out, thanks. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The best, W.D.S&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/0QO0x.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/0Fdm8.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21827" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6510" RevisionGUID="90bceac7-215a-4dfa-bfb6-775b2ce45115" CreationDate="2020-07-29T16:42:00.910" UserId="7127" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="it has got to be St. Christopher.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://www.cassandragoad.com/jewellery/pendants-charms/extra-large-st-christopher-gold-pendant&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(For the person down voting this: )&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That was fun to figure out, thanks. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The best, W.D.S&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/0QO0x.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/0Fdm8.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21828" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6510" RevisionGUID="6d0569ce-64f7-448a-878f-2e9cd0582bf9" CreationDate="2020-07-29T16:54:43.357" UserId="7127" Comment="edited body" Text="it has got to be St. Christopher.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://www.cassandragoad.com/jewellery/pendants-charms/extra-large-st-christopher-gold-pendant&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(For the person down voting this: )&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That was fun to figure out, thanks. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The best, W.D.S&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/8yDW8.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/0Fdm8.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21829" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6510" RevisionGUID="69564513-e241-4e8b-a3d2-db160d0b28cb" CreationDate="2020-07-29T17:06:57.743" UserId="7127" Comment="edited body" Text="It's Saint Christopher.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://www.cassandragoad.com/jewellery/pendants-charms/extra-large-st-christopher-gold-pendant&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(For that one down voting: you're right, thank you &amp; pardon me: )&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That was fun to figure out, thanks. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The best, W.D.S&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/czgsp.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/2R9Ls.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21855" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6520" RevisionGUID="ded6b41c-52a8-420a-ae0d-bc1a6c920114" CreationDate="2020-07-30T01:51:11.963" UserDisplayName="user7122" Text="The battle of the ten kings happened in around 1400bc&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The battle of the ten kings**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The battle took place during the middle or main Rigvedic period,[3] near the Ravi River in Punjab. It was a battle between the Puru Vedic Aryan tribal kingdoms of the Bharatas, allied with other tribes of the north west India, and the Trtsu-Bharata (Puru) king Sudas, who defeats other Vedic tribes.&#xD;&#xA;[1400bc. click on this link and look over to the right side of page][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**600 years after the arrival of Aryans**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The battle was fought between Aryans, the Puru, the vedic and other tribes.&#xD;&#xA;The battle took place 600 years after the arrival of Aryans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Aryans arrive 2000bc**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;relating to or denoting a people speaking an Indo-European language who invaded northern India in the 2nd millennium BC, displacing the Dravidian and other aboriginal peoples.&#xD;&#xA;[Aryans 2000bc][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Though Aryans are associated with Norse folk. It was not actually norse folk that the puru and vedic were fighting, but instead Iranian Persians, that were/are descended from europeans that are in turn descended from norse people that migrated south during the younger dryas/last mini ice-age between 15,000bc and 9000bc, in Northern regions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Ten_Kings#:~:text=The%20Battle%20of%20the%20Ten,the%20Ravi%20River%20in%20Punjab.&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.google.com/search?q=aryan&amp;oq=aryan&amp;aqs=chrome.0.69i59l2j69i60l3.1566j1j4&amp;sourceid=chrome&amp;ie=UTF-8" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21859" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6524" RevisionGUID="c3ec0ca3-ad96-42b7-9dc5-9e77f6dc30cc" CreationDate="2020-07-30T02:37:22.787" UserId="6920" Text="Actually, trafficking with chthonic spirits could be prosecuted as impiety under Greek law by classical times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The &lt;I&gt;Witchcraft and Magic in Europe&lt;/I&gt;'s second volume, on ancient Greece and Rome, has some interesting stuff on this." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21873" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6536" RevisionGUID="75d2a30c-6f05-4c3f-a6e3-1536bdbf4a2e" CreationDate="2020-07-30T06:53:17.893" UserDisplayName="user7122" Text="Sounds very much like Ningirsu, Mother of Eannatum, in historical accounts&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Eannatum**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Eannatum, the ensi of Lagash, who was granted might by Enlil, who constantly is nourished by Ninhursag with her milk, whose name Ningirsu had pronounced, who was chosen by Nanshe in her heart, the son of Akurgal, the ensi of Lagash, conquered the land of Elam, conquered Urua, conquered Umma, conquered Ur. At that time, he built a well made of baked bricks for Ningirsu, in his wide temple courtyard. Eananatum's god is Shulutula. Then did Ningirsu love Eannatum&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;[Eannatum and Ningirsu][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Adam and Eve**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or, Adam and Eve in biblical accounts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And no, not the same person.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mother and son.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eannatum is son of Enlil and Ningirsu, and Ningirsu is wife of Enlil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And Eannatum did not come from his mothers rib. Though she did breast feed him, to nourish him, and also gave him her heart. (Did not literally give him her heart, however)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eannatum is historically recognised as being the worlds first ever emperor. And was crowned by his father, Enlil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eannatum#Conquest_outside_Sumer" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21874" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6536" RevisionGUID="cce2dbde-2318-49ee-a97b-e2091ccb82ae" CreationDate="2020-07-30T07:01:49.087" UserDisplayName="user7122" Comment="added 619 characters in body" Text="Sounds very much like Ningirsu, Mother of Eannatum, in historical accounts&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Eannatum**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Eannatum, the ensi of Lagash, who was granted might by Enlil, who constantly is nourished by Ninhursag with her milk, whose name Ningirsu had pronounced, who was chosen by Nanshe in her heart, the son of Akurgal, the ensi of Lagash, conquered the land of Elam, conquered Urua, conquered Umma, conquered Ur. At that time, he built a well made of baked bricks for Ningirsu, in his wide temple courtyard. Eananatum's god is Shulutula. Then did Ningirsu love Eannatum&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;[Eannatum and Ningirsu][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Adam and Eve**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or, Adam and Eve in biblical accounts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And no, not the same person.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mother and son.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eannatum is son of Enlil and Ningirsu, and Ningirsu is wife of Enlil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And Eannatum did not come from his mothers rib. Though she did breast feed him, to nourish him, and also gave him her heart. (Did not literally give him her heart, however)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eannatum is historically recognised as being the worlds first ever emperor. And was crowned by his father, Enlil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And no, it is actually east semitic origins.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What later became the Semitic speaking Hebrew Neo-assyrian empire nearly 1500 years later, all kicked off in Kish, in 2600bc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Eastern Semitic**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The East Semetic nature of these and other early names associated with Kish reveals that its population had a strong Semitic (Akkadian speaking) component from the dawn of recorded history.&#xD;&#xA;[First dynasty of Kish][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eannatum#Conquest_outside_Sumer&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kish_(Sumer)#First_Dynasty_of_Kish" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21876" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6537" RevisionGUID="07429a49-7049-4d7d-a812-d0dba9e8e4c0" CreationDate="2020-07-30T09:47:20.207" UserDisplayName="user7122" Text="There was actually a pre-dynastic pharoah called Bull. Approximately 3250bc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Taurus Bull**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Bull is the makeshift name for a predynastic petty ruler, from around 3250 BC&#xD;&#xA;[Taurus Bull][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_(Pharaoh)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21879" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6539" RevisionGUID="aada5ff2-5e45-4247-9d75-6e37da59f57d" CreationDate="2020-07-30T18:13:30.967" UserId="6731" Text="I found my own answer. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It comes from Herodotus, Histories, Book 2, v 1. He is discussing which people were the oldest on the earth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is the quote - &quot;Now before Psammetichus became king of Egypt,1 the Egyptians believed that they were the oldest people on earth. But ever since Psammetichus became king and wished to find out which people were the oldest, they have believed that the **Phrygians** were older than they, and they than everybody else.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both Paul in his letter to Colossae and John in the letter to Laodicea (from Revelation) refer to &quot;firstborn&quot; or &quot;ruler of God's creation&quot; which was supposed to be Adam. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both Colossae and Laodicea are Phrygian cities.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is a link: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126%3Abook%3D2%3Achapter%3D2&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21882" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="6540" RevisionGUID="1379c5e5-060b-4f01-b3da-d0b0365030f9" CreationDate="2020-07-30T23:18:32.143" UserDisplayName="user7122" Text="Queen Heo is legendary, but not necessarily mythological.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Certain historians do indeed believed Queen Heo likely existed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Heo Hwang-ok**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Heo Hwang-ok is a legendary queen mentioned in Samguk Yusa, a 13th-century Korean chronicle. According to Samguk Yusa she became the wife of King Suro of Geumgwan Gaya at the age of 16, after having arrived by boat from a distant kingdom,[1][2] making her the first queen of Geumgwan Gaya. According to some Korean historians there are more than six million present day Koreans, of which the majority are from Gimhae Kim clan with surnames Heo and 이 (Lee/Yi) that trace their lineage to the legendary queen.&#xD;&#xA;[Hao Hwang-ok][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However nobody knows much about her, and several Korean historians believe her to have been an Indian princess&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Indian**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Based on the phonetic similarity of Ayuta with Ayodhya in India, several Koreans believe Heo Hwang-ok to be an Indian princess. &#xD;&#xA;[Memorial in Ayodhya][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heo_Hwang-ok&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heo_Hwang-ok#Memorial_in_Ayodhya" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="21885" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6059" RevisionGUID="c70cf05d-37cd-4f31-a70c-edfbe804b0b3" CreationDate="2020-07-31T00:01:17.617" UserId="1317" Comment="Added links" Text="Religious song is likely as old as religion or song. The [Standard of Ur](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_of_Ur) dated to the 26th century BCE,  shows someone playing a harp:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;.![Standard of Ur](https://i.stack.imgur.com/X5chB.jpg)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Source: Wikimedia Commons,  public domain, my highlighting). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hymns to the Sumerian gods were written down in poetic form during the [Early Dynastic Period](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Dynastic_Period_(Mesopotamia)) of ancient Sumer. The [Kesh Temple Hymn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kesh_temple_hymn) was found on clay tablets excavated at Nippur and dated to the 26th century BCE. ([English translation here](http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section4/tr4802.htm))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But singing is one thing, writing it down is another.  Proving it's a &quot;song&quot; requires some sort of [musical notation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_notation). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The so-called &quot;[Hurrian Songs&quot;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurrian_songs)&quot; come from  some cuneiform tablets discovered in the ruins of ancient [Ugarit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugarit) in the 1950s. Dated to the 14th century BCE, the tablets were first translated as music in 1972 by Anne Draffkorn Kilmer, professor of Assyriology at the University of California.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The tablet below shows a song to the Canaanite goddes [Nikkal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikkal):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; ![Hurrian song tablet](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/Hurritische_hymne.gif)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Source: Wikimedia Commons, public domian)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can listen to the song [here](https://youtu.be/tAc2KDNHEw4)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22886" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7543" RevisionGUID="30794b07-bea5-4736-ba37-fdbdbe76ef74" CreationDate="2020-07-31T03:04:48.300" UserId="5445" Text="I found another reference apart from Steven Ian Gall's answer above: R.C. Majumdar in &quot;The Vedic Age&quot; places the battle around 1900 BCE based on a presumed dating of the Mahabharata in 1400 BCE." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22887" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7544" RevisionGUID="917bb044-b04d-4148-8943-d50378db971a" CreationDate="2020-07-31T05:24:28.307" UserId="7014" Text="Native Mesoamerican Spirituality, ed. Miguel León-Portilla, and The Aztecs: A Very Short Introduction by Davíd Carrasco are sources I've used. For the latter source, mythology is addressed mostly in Chapter 4. One note is that most of the primary written sources for pre-Conquest Nahuatl cultures were actually composed post-Conquest, so much of the knowledge that we have is somewhat murky." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22889" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7545" RevisionGUID="478930fc-07ef-428a-968e-6bb1c9a96489" CreationDate="2020-07-31T17:47:47.517" UserId="4022" Text="Various myths involve deities dying (such as Baldr and Osiris). However, in most of the myths that come to mind, another deity is responsible for the death. In Christian belief, Roman soldiers executed Jesus, but this is a relatively late example.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How old is the trope of a mortal (including demigods, heroes, etc, anyone who has some amount of human ancestry and is able to die of old age) defeating and killing a god? What is the earliest known instance of it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22890" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7545" RevisionGUID="478930fc-07ef-428a-968e-6bb1c9a96489" CreationDate="2020-07-31T17:47:47.517" UserId="4022" Text="What is the earliest story of a mortal killing a god?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22891" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7545" RevisionGUID="478930fc-07ef-428a-968e-6bb1c9a96489" CreationDate="2020-07-31T17:47:47.517" UserId="4022" Text="|reference-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22897" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7549" RevisionGUID="f4101515-bbd4-4c46-bbc7-a4e6f9fd8983" CreationDate="2020-07-31T19:07:47.777" UserDisplayName="user7122" Text="**Set**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Set /sɛt/ or Seth /sɛθ/ (Egyptian: stẖ;[a]) is a god of deserts, storms, disorder, violence, and foreigners in ancient Egyptian religion.[1] In Ancient Greek, the god's name is given as Sēth (Σήθ). Set had a positive role where he accompanies Ra on his solar boat to repel Apep, the serpent of Chaos.[1] Set had a vital role as a reconciled combatant.[1] He was lord of the red (desert) land, where he was the balance to Horus' role as lord of the black (soil) land.[1]&#xD;&#xA;[Set][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sekhen**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Ka, also (alternatively) Sekhen,[1][2] was a Predynastic pharaoh of Upper Egypt belonging to Dynasty 0. He probably reigned during the first half of the 32nd century BC. The length of his reign is unknown.&#xD;&#xA;[Sekhen][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now in legend, Horus, is supposed to be Sets nephew.&#xD;&#xA;It just so happens that Horus-Aha is predecessed by Narmer, who is predecessed by Sekhen.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Narmer**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Predecessor Ka (Sekhen) Successor	Hor-Aha&#xD;&#xA;[Narmer][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_(deity)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ka_(pharaoh)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narmer" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22898" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7549" RevisionGUID="f4101515-bbd4-4c46-bbc7-a4e6f9fd8983" CreationDate="2020-07-31T19:07:47.777" UserDisplayName="user7122" Text="Do any ancient sources describe Set as a mortal? And could Set be Sekhen?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22899" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7549" RevisionGUID="f4101515-bbd4-4c46-bbc7-a4e6f9fd8983" CreationDate="2020-07-31T19:07:47.777" UserDisplayName="user7122" Text="|egyptian|mythohistory|history|bible|demi-gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22902" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7549" RevisionGUID="b6644437-d9ed-41b8-b4a5-b892f46cf658" CreationDate="2020-07-31T20:05:04.623" UserDisplayName="user7122" Comment="added 365 characters in body" Text="**Set**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Set /sɛt/ or Seth /sɛθ/ (Egyptian: stẖ;[a]) is a god of deserts, storms, disorder, violence, and foreigners in ancient Egyptian religion.[1] In Ancient Greek, the god's name is given as Sēth (Σήθ). Set had a positive role where he accompanies Ra on his solar boat to repel Apep, the serpent of Chaos.[1] Set had a vital role as a reconciled combatant.[1] He was lord of the red (desert) land, where he was the balance to Horus' role as lord of the black (soil) land.[1]&#xD;&#xA;[Set][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sekhen**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Ka, also (alternatively) Sekhen,[1][2] was a Predynastic pharaoh of Upper Egypt belonging to Dynasty 0. He probably reigned during the first half of the 32nd century BC. The length of his reign is unknown.&#xD;&#xA;[Sekhen][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now in legend, Horus, is supposed to be Sets nephew.&#xD;&#xA;It just so happens that Horus-Aha is predecessed by Narmer, who is predecessed by Sekhen.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Narmer**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Predecessor Ka (Sekhen) Successor	Hor-Aha&#xD;&#xA;[Narmer][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Summary**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So we have a legend which states that Set went to war with his nephew Horus, over kingship of Egypt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We also have a real pre-dynastic pharoah, from dynasty 0, named Sekhen, who appears to have a nephew or relation named Horus-Aha.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So could this account for Sekhen being Set? And are there any ancient sources which describe Set as a mortal?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_(deity)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ka_(pharaoh)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narmer" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22911" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="3078" RevisionGUID="8964b09b-0353-4f9d-ab2f-0f12575e8e20" CreationDate="2020-08-01T01:12:30.033" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="22926" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6188" RevisionGUID="f23d5b2a-a756-4f16-aa54-f107c547ed72" CreationDate="2020-08-02T12:03:05.290" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="22927" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7552" RevisionGUID="0df74615-db7e-48ef-a5a4-ce822b8c4d1a" CreationDate="2020-08-02T13:28:17.643" UserId="5511" Text="Seth and Sekhen/Ka are completely unrelated names &amp; meanings. Below are the names of *Ka* (left) and his queen *Ha* (right):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; [![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are also inscriptions presenting an upright serekh with an upside-down *Ka*-symbol inside, which renders &quot;Sekhen&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Sekhen* means &quot;to grasp, to hold&quot;. *Ka* means &quot;to embrace&quot;. Because the up/down reading of the name is so uncertain, Egyptologists prefer a neutral reading as ‘King Arms’.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Seth, on the other hand, is written in one of these three forms, chronologically ordered:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Seth's name is thought to have been originally pronounced *sūtiẖ* [ˈsuw.tixʲ] based on spellings of his name in Egyptian hieroglyphs as *stẖ* and *swtẖ*. The Late Egyptian spelling *stš* (set-esh) reflects the palatalization of ẖ while the eventual loss of the final consonant is recorded in spellings like *swt*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the likeliness is only apparent in late Egyptian spelling, which is thousands of years after Ka. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, I refer to the concept of the Horus name I detailed in an answer to one of your previous questions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/cMSrV.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serekh&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/jK3ju.png&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/95JBK.png&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/a7Q1E.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22929" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7553" RevisionGUID="d98613ea-7424-4b74-b8ce-7bc1ac7a34e1" CreationDate="2020-08-02T23:00:16.537" UserId="6920" Text="In *Cinderella*, the fairy godmother turns a rat into a coachman, but while I have read many tales where people are turned into other kinds of animals -- crows, wolves, swans, bears, frogs -- I haven't found one where a person is made a rat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any such tales?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22930" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7553" RevisionGUID="d98613ea-7424-4b74-b8ce-7bc1ac7a34e1" CreationDate="2020-08-02T23:00:16.537" UserId="6920" Text="Are there tales where people are turned into rats?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22931" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7553" RevisionGUID="d98613ea-7424-4b74-b8ce-7bc1ac7a34e1" CreationDate="2020-08-02T23:00:16.537" UserId="6920" Text="|animals|fairy-tales|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22943" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6414" RevisionGUID="567ad44c-4a5c-4b6d-bb2b-41af5c80e5ad" CreationDate="2020-08-04T19:58:16.043" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="**Evidently no, there is no such concern in the ancient accounts of this story.** Like many other extraordinary elements of these tales, such as Orpheus charming his way into the land of the dead by the power of his music, the assumption is simply that such things must have been possible.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Book 5 of Statius' *Silvae* describes Eurydice as having a funeral pyre, thereby implying that she was indeed cremated. As far as I've been able to find, however, there is no ancient mythography expressing any difficulty with the idea of anyone being resurrected—if a divinity who wants to enact this resuscitation should grant its occurrence—regardless of the condition of the body of the deceased.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Cleansing Fire**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interestingly, incidentally, fire is often an important medium used by the gods in order to transform a mortal into an immortal. Part of what makes Dionysus the special son of a divine father and a mortal mother is that, even before he was born, he was bathed in the same flames that killed his then-pregnant mother Semele whereupon he completed his gestation while sewn up into his father's thigh. This unorthodox procedure essentially rendered him immortal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for Semele herself, Book 8 of Nonnus' *Dionysiaca* says that, as she was being raised from the Underworld in order to be made into the goddess Thyone, she was given a &quot;new body&quot; which was &quot;bathed in the purifying fire&quot;. In his request to retrieve his wife from the dead, Orpheus does not seek for her to become immortal in the process of her proposed resurrection, so presumably the new body she would have acquired would not have required a baptism of flames.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Capaneus, For Example**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are indeed instances in this mythology of the cremated dead being restored to mortal bodily life, but we are not provided with the mechanics of this procedure, either because it was simply taken for granted that it was achievable by divine powers (such as when *Odyssey* 10.306 says that certain things are difficult for mortal men, but that &quot;with the gods all things are possible&quot;), or because records of such details have not survived into our time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the story of the war of the Seven Against Thebes, one of the city's seven attackers is a virtually gigantic Argive warrior named Capaneus, who gets blasted dead by a thunderbolt from Zeus while he scales one of the walls of Thebes. The fire kindled by the lightning-strike is so huge that days after Capaneus' demise, live flames are still consuming his body to the extent that there is no need to kindle his funeral pyre, which lights up as soon as he is set upon it. One wonders if even his bones could have survived such intensity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Capaneus is among the individuals said to have been resurrected from the dead by Asclepius before the latter became a god. Philodemus mentions that this story is told in Stesichorus' now-lost play *Eriphyle*. Sextus Empiricus informs us of this as well, without offering any detail, and we know that in the Classical period a certain Timesitheus wrote a bunch of plays, none of which are currently extant. One of these is entitled *Capaneus*, and perhaps might have told us what this resurrection looked like mechanically speaking.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Blood and the Threads of Fate**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aeschylus' *Agamemnon* alludes to the resurrections performed by Asclepius, who was killed by Zeus for bestowing this gift upon the dead: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But a man's blood, once it has first fallen by murder to earth in a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dark tide—who by magic spell shall call it back? Even he who possessed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the skill to raise from the dead—did not Zeus make an end of him as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; warning?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This could be interpreted figuratively as more poetic language, or perhaps it could be taken to mean that the life is (literally) in the blood (such as in [Leviticus 17:11](https://www.bible.com/bible/316/lev.17.11)), and so the resurrection mechanism involves the lost blood of the deceased somehow being reconstituted to form the (re)new(ed) body.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The more mystical aspect of this process is touched upon in Book 6 of Ovid's *Fasti*, wherein Theseus' son Hippolytus is resurrected by Asclepius. In so doing, this healer hero is said to be re-spinning the broken thread of the life of Hippolytus, against the will of Clotho, the fate-goddess responsible for spinning the threads of people's lives. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The same passage also describes how mangled the dead man's body is upon the request for him to be restored to life. This is not a matter of much concern to Asclepius, who promises to &quot;restore the pious youth to life all unscathed,&quot; which he does indeed manage to do by placing some herbs on his chest and chanting a spell.    " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22944" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7555" RevisionGUID="030897fb-cff0-4536-8d0a-f208e8d9db7e" CreationDate="2020-08-04T22:00:28.930" UserId="5715" Text="There are certainly tales where humans are turned into rats. The Aarne-Thompson motif index, which categorizes fairytale tropes, includes one for “Transformation: man to rodent” (with the identifying number being D117). Sublistings include rats and mice. If you read through motif indexes from different countries, you may find some collectors who list examples. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I located a few stories, most of them obscure. Some were actually about mice, but I thought for these purposes they could still be relevant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There’s a widespread tale type called “The Animal Bride,” kind of a gender-flipped Frog Prince tale. The enchanted princess can be any kind of animal. In a Swedish version (“**The Rats in the Juniper Bush**”), she’s a rat. In a Finnish version (“**The Forest Bride**”), she’s a mouse. These versions don’t really focus on the background. They just mention briefly that the princess fell under some sort of enchantment in the past.&#xD;&#xA;- Blecher, *Swedish Folktales and Legends* (1993)&#xD;&#xA;- Fillmore, Parker. *[Mighty Mikko: A Book of Finnish Fairy Tales and Folk Tales][1].* 1922. p. 121.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In an Irish story, &quot;Shaking-Head,&quot; a servant girl is briefly turned into a rat so that she can steal something.&#xD;&#xA;- Curtin, Jeremiah. *[Myths and Folk-lore of Ireland.][2]* Relevant scene is on page 194.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a Tibetan tale, “The Story of the Potter and the Princess,” a grateful spirit gives a man a cloak made of rat-skins which allows him to transform into a rat.&#xD;&#xA;- Macdonald, David. “Tibetan Tales, III. (Continued).” Folklore, vol. 42, no. 4, 1931, pp. 447–464. JSTOR, [www.jstor.org/stable/1256302][3]. Accessed 4 Aug. 2020.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Hawaiian myths there are rat-people and a character named Kane-pohihi who takes rat form.&#xD;&#xA;- Beckwith, Martha Warren. Hawaiian Mythology (1940) p. 433-435&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Ganesha Purana, the celestial musician Kraunca or Krauncha gets turned into a mouse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And in the fairytale [Puss in Boots][4], Puss tricks the shapeshifting ogre into taking the form of a mouse. At that point, the ogre is easily defeated. This is the most famous tale I can think of where someone turns into a rodent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books/about/Mighty_Mikko.html?id=YqgWAAAAYAAJ&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;source=kp_read_button&amp;newbks=1&amp;newbks_redir=0#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.com/books?id=IrZGAAAAIAAJ&amp;pg=PA194&amp;dq=%22turned%20her%20into%20a%20rat%22&amp;hl=en&amp;newbks=1&amp;newbks_redir=0&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwj3nt-W9YHrAhWPmOAKHWvJCkoQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&amp;q=%22turned%20her%20into%20a%20rat%22&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/1256302&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.surlalunefairytales.com/h-r/puss-boots/puss-boots-tale.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22946" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="3408" RevisionGUID="09143a4a-7275-47b3-8f61-0f3b997f0d43" CreationDate="2020-08-05T01:37:16.730" UserId="6626" Comment="Added tag since irish fairies are a kind of mythical creature" Text="|mythical-creatures|irish|fairies|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22947" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="3408" RevisionGUID="09143a4a-7275-47b3-8f61-0f3b997f0d43" CreationDate="2020-08-05T01:37:16.730" Comment="Proposed by 6626 approved by 5726, 2682 edit id of 1820" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22948" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7556" RevisionGUID="912ff89c-19e1-46ee-885f-034c245782a0" CreationDate="2020-08-05T07:39:03.850" UserId="2682" Text="The interpretation I have found in general usage is that Ra had grown visibly old, which was suspicious to the human race, who did not even know what death was (as hinted at in your Roland Mastaff quote). Based on this, humankind had lost confidence in Ra's fitness to reign, and essentially they were staging a coup d'état. The whole business is dealt with very tersely in the cursory prelude with which the *Book of the Heavenly Cow* starts off:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Once it came to pass, under the Majesty of Ra, who brought himself&#xD;&#xA;&gt; into being, that when he had been in the kingship over mankind and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gods combined, mankind proceeded to contrive a plot against the person&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Ra now that His Majesty (*Life! Prosperity! Health!*) had grown&#xD;&#xA;&gt; old, his bones being of silver, his flesh of gold, and his hair of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; genuine lapis lazuli. His Majesty became aware of the plot being&#xD;&#xA;&gt; contrived against him by mankind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In her 1988 book *Egyptian Legends and Stories*, M.V. Seton-Williams frames the incident in the context of humanity's refusal to continue supplying the god with due honours in the form of sacrifices. In the introduction to her own retelling of the story, she says (on p. 22)&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the beginning mankind was grateful to Re for the benefits that he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; had conferred upon them, and they worshipped him and supplied all the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; things necessary for his service. After a while, however, they became&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tired of doing this and claimed that Re had grown old, and had no need&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of further offerings, so supplies for the temples diminished.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Joshua J. Mark, in the [&quot;Book of the Heavenly Cow&quot; article](https://www.ancient.eu/Book_of_the_Heavenly_Cow/)&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; of the Ancient History Encyclopedia website, surmises that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The story begins with humans plotting against Ra because he has grown&#xD;&#xA;&gt; old and they feel he can no longer manage the affairs of the world. Ra&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hears of their scheme to overthrow him and calls the other gods to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; council to ask their advice on how to proceed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roger Lancelyn Green's conclusion, per his 1970 book *Tales of Ancient Egypt*, is that Ra was indeed enfeebled by his age, so that &quot;he could no longer rule well over the people of Egypt&quot; (p. 4).&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; He blends his rendition of the story into Ra's well-known role as the opponent of Apep [Apophis], going on (on the same page) to imply that part of humanity's motive was fear that the god was no longer capable of fighting this &quot;Dragon of Evil who had grown out of the evil vapours in the darkness of the night and sought to devour all that was good and bright and kissed by the sun.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a spot of narrative harmonisation on Green's part, as his book is after all creative fiction targeted at children. In the actual *Book of the Heavenly Cow* source material, Apep is mentioned merely one in time, in passing, as having a soul that &quot;is in the Eastern Mountain,&quot; as opposed to the soul of Ra, which &quot;is in magic throughout the world.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An interesting vindication of humankind's position, if it is correct to conclude that the threatened coup was on account of the divine king's perceived weakness, is that Ra seems to confirm their suspicion, in a bit of an ironic twist in the end. In the aftermath of Sekhmet's rampage by which she nearly annihilates the human race, Ra complains to Nun of his heavy-heartedness, and, smitten with weariness and pain, he admits: &quot;My limbs are feeble as in the First Time. I will not return until another (cycle) overtakes me.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story then goes on to explain the origin of the Celestial Cow as the vehicle for Ra to basically escape his ungrateful subjects on earth and depart into the heavens. As Joshua J. Mark puts it, &quot;There are, in fact, a number of etiological elements to the myth which explain a wide range of traditions from why maidservants brew beer to the creation of the afterlife of the Field of Reeds.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nadine Guilhou's *UCLA Encyclopedia of Egyptology* article &quot;The Myth of the Heavenly Cow&quot;&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; explains that this story&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; displays how the gods share  power  and  tasks  after  the  departure &#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the sun god. Shu becomes the support of the Heavenly  Cow, &#xD;&#xA;&gt; separating  the  sky  from  the earth;  Geb  is  now  responsible, &#xD;&#xA;&gt; together  with Osiris,  for  guarding  the  earth—in  particular the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mounds and the snakes that inhabit them. This scenario can be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; understood as a “spatial distribution”   of   power.   Moreover,   the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; installation  of  the  god  Thoth  as  both  vizier and moon,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; substituting for the sun god in the sky  each  night,  can  refer &#xD;&#xA;&gt; additionally  to  a “temporal   distribution”   of   power.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Notes***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Of the 1999 Barnes &amp; Noble Books, New York publication&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. &quot;[P]ublished on 22 August 2019&quot;, viewed 5th August 2020&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. 2016 edition, Puffin Books: An imprint of Penguin Random House LLC, New York&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;4. Jacco Dieleman and Willeke Wendrich (eds.), 1004 Version 1, September 2010 &lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22949" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7557" RevisionGUID="ba15653c-c4a9-461b-b65d-2d7650565669" CreationDate="2020-08-05T08:46:37.683" UserId="5511" Text="This text originates in the Amarna period, during which Pharaoh Akhenaten attempted to replace the traditional Egyptian pantheon with a single deity, the Aten (the sun disk).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that the sun had been associated with the god Ra in traditional Egyptian religion up to and after the Amarna period. The priests of the traditional pantheon rebelled against Akhenaten. After his death, his successor, a boy-king who was originally named Tutankhaten, reinstated the old religion and changed his name to Tutankhamun. (Aten to Amun, since the Amun sect was the most powerful in Egypt before the Amarna period). His short reign ended the 18th dynasty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is in the tombs of Tutankhamun and the fist pharaohs of the 19th dynasty that we find the oldest occurences of the text in question: the Book of the Heavenly Cow appears on the walls of the tombs of Seti I, Ramesses II, Ramesses III, Ramesses VI, and Tutankhamun.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is no coincidence that this text originated during a period when the traditional religion of Egypt was repressed and replaced by another sun god. During the early 19th dynasty, the capitol city of Akhenaten was utterly destroyed and attempts were made to erase Akhenaten and his religion from history. It is therefore not surprising that in a rebellion against the new sun god Aten, at some point in the development of the text, the author(s) would have refused to even use the nomenclature of Aten, or would have associated the rebellion against the sun god as one against Ra in stead of Aten.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/oAwTd.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22950" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6462" RevisionGUID="d55b5832-b341-4836-8881-7467168d2ed8" CreationDate="2020-08-05T08:56:11.330" UserId="57" Comment="added 9 characters in body" Text="It would seem that Achilles being dipped in the River refers to an old Smithy tale of Quenching: dipping the red-hot iron/carbon meat, aka steel, in water or oil to harden it. It is known Achilles wore a suit (of apparently steel) armor. The &quot;weak spot&quot; would be where the smithy held the armor during the quenching process.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding &quot;Indo-European&quot; origins of metal-working, I would highly recommend this paper, found at academia.edu:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tvaṣṭr, Meluhha of Bhāratam Janam (Rigveda) is Tuisto, divine ancestor of Germanic peoples (Tacitus), legacy of Proto-Indo-Aryan superstrate &amp; Mitanni Treaty&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This can be seen as a pilgrimage, a journey of Meluhha artisans/sea-faring merchants in Eurasia, during the Bronze Age, along the Maritime Tin Road from Hanoi, Vietnam to Haifa, Israel.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This journey also explains why many Proto-Indo-Aryan words like those present in Mitanni Treaty occur on Indus Script Corpora which is a veritable catalogus catalogurm of metalwork by metalcasters in the tradition of Tvaṣṭr , Tuisto...Tvaṣtṛi is the Vulcan of the Hindu mythology. He had a son named Triśiras...Meluhha of the Indian sprachbund, is the spoken form of chandas, the prosody of Rigveda. Tvaṣṭr is the metal artificer par excellence, who forges the vajra (thunderbolt) weapon for Indra, a narrative celebrated in exquisite metaphors of Rigvedic chandas...&quot;King Shaushtatar (ruled c. 1430) extended the boundaries of Mitanni through the conquest of Alalakh, Nuzi, Assur, and Kizzuwatna. Egypt, under Tuthmosis III (1479-1425 BCE), defeated the Mitanni at Aleppo after a long period of contention over control of the region of Syria. Later Egyptian dynasties entered into pacts and treaties with Mitanni and the daughter of the Mitanni King Tushratta, the princess Taduhepa, was given in marriage to Amenhotep III (1391-1353 BCE) as part of a treaty which balanced power between the two nations.This treaty was put to the test during a power struggle in Washukanni between Tushratta and a relative of the previous king, Shuttarna, known as Artatama II.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am of the opinion that &quot;Tadukhepa&quot; is the same name as the Russian &quot;Dudieva&quot; (&quot;khepa&quot; is pronounced Eva or Eve) and she is none other than &quot;Nefertiti.&quot; Further, King Shashtatar reminds strongly of Esua. Further, it seems clear chronology must be re-examined stringently: is this king not a Tartar? &quot;Scratch a Russian and underneath you'll find a Tartar.&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22951" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7558" RevisionGUID="47087df4-c20e-4ea7-b526-e4cbed48827d" CreationDate="2020-08-05T14:32:27.970" UserId="5511" Text="If there is a connection, and I cannot stress this *if* enough, all it would indicate is that yet another biblical myth is based on older stories. It certainly doesn't in any way &quot;prove&quot; that science is &quot;wrong&quot; or that the Genesis is &quot;right&quot; - [there are 93 other inconsistencies &amp; contradictions in Genesis][1]. Also, Genesis does not conform to what we know about, for example, the formation of the universe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now unto why your hypothesis is extremely unlikely to be viable.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First, the names Adam and Eannatum have no similar meaning or etymology:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The biblical account of the creation of male and female humankind shows that the man was made from elements of the earth (in Hebrew, *adamah*, “ground, land”). That's the root of the name *Adam*.&#xD;&#xA; - Eannatum () means &quot;Befitting the *E-anna* (temple)&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Second, we know when the Jews wrote their creation myth: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - historians traced the origin of the story to the Babylonian exile, when **King Nebuchadnezzar II** deported the Judahites to Babylonia, where they were essentially held prisoner. &#xD;&#xA; - Nebuchadnezzar II lived two millennia after Eannatum.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Third, we know the myths from which the Jews copied theirs:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the middle of the nineteenth century, archaeologists were digging in the library of King Ashurbanipal (668-627 B.C.) in the ancient city of Nineveh. They discovered thousands of clay tablets written in a language that came to be known as Akkadian (a distant and much older cousin to Hebrew). One of those texts bore striking similarities to Genesis 1.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Found among the ruins was a Babylonian creation story referred to today as *Enuma Elish*. It is a story about a highly dysfunctional divine family engaged in a major power struggle at the dawn of time. The heart of the story is where the god Marduk kills his nemesis Tiamat and then fillets her body in two, making the sky out of one half and the earth out of the other. Thus, Marduk claims the throne as the high god in the pantheon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Scholars have termed Enuma Elish the “Babylonian Genesis.” The reason is that both stories share some concepts that were immediately apparent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In both stories, matter exists when creation begins. Similar to *Enuma Elish*, Genesis 1 describes God ordering chaos, not creating something out of nothing.&#xD;&#xA; - Darkness precedes the creative acts.&#xD;&#xA; - In *Enuma Elish* the symbol of chaos is the goddess *Tiamat* who personifies the sea. Genesis refers to the “deep.” The Hebrew word is *tehom*, which is linguistically related to *Tiamat*.&#xD;&#xA; - In both stories, light exists before the creation of the sun, moon, and stars.&#xD;&#xA; - In both stories, there is a division of the waters above and below, with a barrier holding back the upper waters.&#xD;&#xA; - The sequence of creation is similar, including the division of waters, dry land, luminaries, and humanity, all followed by rest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Genesis is just a later Hebrew version of this older Babylonian story, whilst also &quot;borrowing&quot; from and the far older *Atrahasis* and Epic of Gilgamesh.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gilgamesh’s possession of a plant of immortality is thwarted by a serpent (compare Gen 3), he wrestles in the night with a divinely appointed assailant who proclaims the hero’s identity and predicts that he will prevail over all others (compare Gen 32:23-32), and he is taught that the greatest response to mortality is to live life in appreciation of those things which make us truly human (compare Eccl 9:7-10).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Epic, the gods create Enkidu, who runs wild with the animals in the open country, as a companion for Gilgamesh.  There are particularly interesting similarities between the Garden of Eden story in Genesis and the story of Enkidu’s movement from nature to culture and civilization. In both stories, a woman is responsible for the transition of a man who had once eaten and drunk with the animals to a state of estrangement from nature. Once Enkidu is rejected by the animal world, the woman Shamhat gives him clothing and teaches him to drink beer and eat bread—all technological developments that separate humans from animals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Genesis, once Adam has eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge, he covers his nudity and is sentenced to a life of cultivating food by harsh labor. This is the cost of divine knowledge. In Gilgamesh, when Enkidu becomes estranged from the animals, Shamhat tells him that he has become “like a god.” Later, on his deathbed, Enkidu laments his removal from a state of nature, only to be reminded by the god *Shamash* that while civilized life is more fraught with difficulty and the knowledge of one’s own mortality, it is a worthwhile price for cultural knowledge and awareness.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/contra_list.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22952" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7559" RevisionGUID="5fead8cb-b87e-43ff-acbc-1326ef08a965" CreationDate="2020-08-06T21:06:36.673" UserId="6739" Text="I have come across a form of combat from ancient Egypt called 'water jousting'. Does anyone know the actual Egyptian term for this, or any other ancient Egyptian terms for things like wrestling, which the greeks called pale (πάλη)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22953" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7559" RevisionGUID="5fead8cb-b87e-43ff-acbc-1326ef08a965" CreationDate="2020-08-06T21:06:36.673" UserId="6739" Text="What is the name of Ancient Egyptian &quot;water jousting&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22954" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7559" RevisionGUID="5fead8cb-b87e-43ff-acbc-1326ef08a965" CreationDate="2020-08-06T21:06:36.673" UserId="6739" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22958" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5800" RevisionGUID="76b337b0-ac62-409f-aa7c-8537f4e7bfb9" CreationDate="2020-08-07T01:02:35.313" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="22959" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7561" RevisionGUID="ec12ef4a-3afd-4ff9-a946-37761429d39e" CreationDate="2020-08-07T06:25:40.783" UserId="7148" Text="I had a dream one day where i was being stalked through a house by a creature made of twigs. Initially the creature was normal height about 6ft with a face like the chester cat but with normal pupils. I hid in a cubby made for towels in the top of a closet suddenly the door opens and a cat seemed to be floating around the room while laying down but he had branches coming out from under him meowing in a deep distorted voice. The cat went away but then the creature rose up to face me at a height of around 8 to 9 ft. Imagine if cousin it was made of twigs with some sticking out while sporting a chester cat smile with bulging eyes filled with a silent rage a cold murderous stare. When i drew it out and showed it to my father figure at the time he said it wasn't the first time i had drew that same creature. If anybody has any idea of any creature from folklore that might fit this description I'd greatly appreciate it. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22960" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7561" RevisionGUID="ec12ef4a-3afd-4ff9-a946-37761429d39e" CreationDate="2020-08-07T06:25:40.783" UserId="7148" Text="Identifying a mythical creature" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22961" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7561" RevisionGUID="ec12ef4a-3afd-4ff9-a946-37761429d39e" CreationDate="2020-08-07T06:25:40.783" UserId="7148" Text="|myth-identification|mythical-creatures|mythohistory|superstition|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22962" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7562" RevisionGUID="058ebfbb-9039-4fba-96a4-45891e32dfdf" CreationDate="2020-08-07T09:28:39.737" UserId="742" Text="Which ancient cults would cut out the hearts of live animals and offer them as sacrifices? The Mishnah (*Avodah Zarah* 2:3) mentions a concept called עורות לבובין which Maimonides and other commentators explain refers to the pagan practice of making an incision in live animals and removing their hearts for ritual purposes. Do we have any documentation as to which ancient cults were engaged in this practice?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22963" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7562" RevisionGUID="058ebfbb-9039-4fba-96a4-45891e32dfdf" CreationDate="2020-08-07T09:28:39.737" UserId="742" Text="Which ancient cults would cut out the hearts of live animals and offer them as sacrifices?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22964" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7562" RevisionGUID="058ebfbb-9039-4fba-96a4-45891e32dfdf" CreationDate="2020-08-07T09:28:39.737" UserId="742" Text="|animals|reference-request|sacrifice|rituals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22966" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7563" RevisionGUID="94824f14-3b07-416f-9996-bc11e2a1adcc" CreationDate="2020-08-08T20:41:01.733" UserId="7154" Text="1. The fact that there are so many similarities between Korean and Tamil, up to 500 words according to researchers with the exact same sounds and meanings too, there could be more but these words have less similarity... &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. Queen Heo-Hwang-ok was cleary stated to have travelled via ship on a journey by sea (not possible between North India and South Korea but definitely possible from South India - Tamil Nadu to South Korea)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. She is said to be from Ayuta, a “distant kingdom across the sea”, but the name doesn’t correspond to the name of any country or city from that time period in India or any other country.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. The Indian government (situated in North India) don't have any records of there being any such city, country from that time period&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;5. If you ask any Tamil person, usually above the age of 50 they'll tell you that present day Kanyakumari was called Ayuta in the past, unfortunately as of writing this (August 8th 2020) I searched everywhere and there's no written record of this :(&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;6. Heo-Hwang-ok or 'Suriratna' I have no idea where the name Suriratna came from but she was also called 'Seembavalam' - which is undoubtedly Tamil&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;7. Lastly the only thing which backed the belief that Heo-Hwang-ok was from Ayodhya in North India is the fact that Ayodhya reassembles Ayuta, even this... as the Indian government said, did not exist during Heo-Hwang-ok's time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another thing which is unsettling is the fact that the memorial for Queen Heo-Hwang-ok is in Ayodhya so thousands of South Koreans may be going to the wrong place to trace back and pay respects to their ancestry&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm leaning towards queen Heo-Hwang-ok being of Tamil decent for the above reasons, I hope that was helpful&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;P.S. I'm a sixth form student studying art, psychology, histroy and English language in the UK" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22967" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7564" RevisionGUID="bd19d49e-f7e7-499a-9d68-d7c3da6b7695" CreationDate="2020-08-09T05:50:44.553" UserId="7014" Text="Might be the green man? Not sure how much mythological basis there is, but he shows up on a lot of cathedrals among the grotesques. [![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/FwZqW.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22968" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7565" RevisionGUID="85c7a1cd-a112-49a0-9fad-f2d33ca7f21c" CreationDate="2020-08-09T09:17:41.983" UserId="5511" Text="If the definition is *&quot;incision in live animals and removing their hearts for ritual purpose&quot;*, then we find this in:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ancient Egypt**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Animals were mummified and their internal organs removed to be placed in canopic jars. Research by Richard Evershed, an expert on archaeological chemistry at the University of Bristol, found the same materials---including fine linen, beeswax, cedar resins, bitumen and pistacia---used in human mummies were also used in mummies of cats, ibises and hawks. The oldest-known animal mummies, dated to 2950 BCE, are dogs, lions and donkeys buried with kings in the 1st dynasty in their funeral complexes at Abydos, Symbols of the god Troth, ibises were mummified in greater numbers than any other animal. Some mummified animals were pets that their owners wanted with them in the afterlife, so we can assume they were alive when their owner died.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ancient Greece**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Worship in ancient Greek religion typically consisted of sacrificing domestic animals at the altar with hymn and prayer. The altar was outside any temple building, and might not be associated with a temple at all. The animal, which should be perfect of its kind, is decorated with garlands and the like, and led in procession to the altar, a girl with a basket on her head containing the concealed knife leading the way. After various rituals the animal is slaughtered over the altar, as it falls all the women present &quot;must cry out in high, shrill tones&quot;. Its blood is collected and poured over the altar. The liver, lungs, heart, and other internal organs were roasted and shared by all the participants.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ancient Rome**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most potent offering in Ancient Roman religion was animal sacrifice, typically of domesticated animals such as cattle, sheep and pigs. Each was the best specimen of its kind, cleansed, clad in sacrificial regalia and garlanded; the horns of oxen might be gilded. Sacrifice sought the harmonisation of the earthly and divine, so the victim must seem willing to offer its own life on behalf of the community; it must remain calm and be quickly and cleanly dispatched.  The sacrificial fire consumed their proper portion, called *exta*, the innards. The *exta* were the entrails of a sacrificed animal, comprising in Cicero's enumeration the gall bladder (*fel*), liver (*iecur*), heart (*cor*), and lungs (*pulmones*). The *exta* were exposed for *litatio* (divine approval) as part of Roman liturgy, but were &quot;read&quot; in the context of the *disciplina Etrusca*. As a product of Roman sacrifice, the *exta* and blood are reserved for the gods, while the meat (*viscera*) is shared among human beings in a communal meal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Judaism**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Jewish tradition, Kosher slaughter imvolves offering parts of each slaughtered animal to the Abrahamic god, so we can consider it a ritual as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kosher foods are those that conform to the Jewish dietary regulations of *kashrut* (dietary law), primarily derived from Leviticus and Deuteronomy. They require a ritual slaughter of the animal. Traditional Jewish thought has expressed the view that all meat must come from animals that have been slaughtered according to Jewish law. One of the main biblical food laws forbids consuming blood on account of &quot;the life [being] in the blood&quot;. This ban and reason are listed in the *Noahide Laws* and twice in Book of Leviticus as well as in Deuteronomy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To comply with this prohibition, a number of preparation techniques became practiced within traditional Judaism. The main technique, known as *meliḥah*, involves the meat being soaked in water for about half an hour, which opens pores. *Meliḥah* is not sufficient to extract blood from the liver, lungs, heart, and certain other internal organs, since they naturally contain a high density of blood, and therefore these organs are usually removed before the rest of the meat is salted. Roasting, on the other hand, discharges blood while cooking, and is the usual treatment given to these organs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Meso-America**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Human sacrifice was common in many parts of Mesoamerica, so the rite was nothing new to the Aztecs when they arrived at the Valley of Mexico, nor was it something unique to pre-Columbian Mexico. Other Mesoamerican cultures, such as the Purépechas and Toltecs, performed sacrifices as well and from archaeological evidence, it probably existed since the time of the Olmecs (1200–400 BC), and perhaps even throughout the early farming cultures of the region. However, the extent of human sacrifice is unknown among several Mesoamerican civilizations, such as Teotihuacán.[1] What distinguished Maya and Aztec human sacrifice was the way in which it was embedded in everyday life and believed to be a necessity. These cultures also notably sacrificed elements of their own population to the gods. The victim's heart would be ripped from his body.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Christianity**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][5]][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Christianity often depicts the heart of the Nazarene separate from the body. It is actually  one of the most widely practiced and well-known Catholic devotions. Though not actually performed, it is depicted as such. In this context, Jesus is called &quot;the Lamb of God&quot;, to be sacrificed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Sacred Heart is often depicted in Christian art as a flaming heart shining with divine light, pierced by the lance-wound, encircled by the crown of thorns, surmounted by a cross, and bleeding. Sometimes, the image is shown shining within the bosom of Christ with his wounded hands pointing at the heart. The wounds and crown of thorns allude to the manner of Jesus' death, while the fire represents the transformative power &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Tnsup.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/7YZXG.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/RzPhE.png&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/KxLeV.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Oh0Ow.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22969" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7566" RevisionGUID="4387a46d-76ae-48a0-90ed-c61f14bf8c4f" CreationDate="2020-08-09T09:31:47.027" UserId="5511" Text="&#xD;&#xA;Archeologists call it &quot;Egyptian Fisherman Jousting&quot;, an aquatic combat sport practiced in ancient Egypt. Modern knowledge of this sport comes from studying ancient Egyptian tomb reliefs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Though the Egyptian reliefs that depict fisherman jousting don’t appear in contexts of war or battle, many of these depictions appear to be quite malicious and violent. This leaves the impression that the activity pictured may not have been entertainment, but rather something more aggressive, such as battles for fishing territory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We do not know what the Ancient Egyptians called this. If you *really* want an Egyptian name, we could infer:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  (wHa-w-aach[a]), the  can mean both &quot;to row&quot; and &quot;to fight&quot;, the  indicates a plural of  (fisherman)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/4JWOu.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22977" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7567" RevisionGUID="53c805f9-f551-4e54-bf22-de2e21c8a737" CreationDate="2020-08-09T19:03:10.297" UserId="5806" Text="Centaur Chiron (Χείρων) is not as similar as it sounds with Charon (Χάρων) as you can see it written in Greek. If you can not see the fonts, try to set encoding to utf-8 on your browser. There is no connection to these two words as you can see, so there you go." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22995" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="7562" RevisionGUID="3ac55870-a27e-4f8d-bf80-ab12c47796e9" CreationDate="2020-08-11T03:42:21.360" UserDisplayName="user7149" Comment="106" />
  <row Id="22997" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7569" RevisionGUID="d9b8ef26-f0fe-43dc-abd8-dfa6170b63d8" CreationDate="2020-08-11T19:17:41.977" UserId="3725" Text="Usually, fantasy creatures are easy to track back to mythology and folklore and there is only a handful I can't trace back. Of course, that can be because they're actually unique, but oftentimes I do feel like I've seen them before, yet I can't grasp where. I mean, even for &quot;clockwork&quot; robots and automatons, you can look at [Leonardo da Vinci's knight][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, what lizardmen am I talking about? Well, here is a semi-rigid set of tropes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Oftentimes very primitive, even stone-age primitive.&#xD;&#xA; - Live in deserts, jungles, or swamps&#xD;&#xA; - Are actually cold-blooded&#xD;&#xA; - Little sexual dimorphism in appearance&#xD;&#xA; - Once had a great civilization that's now gone&#xD;&#xA; - Eat humans&#xD;&#xA; - Hiss often&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, you can take some away, but the fact that this set of characteristics even exists points to an origin point, or ground zero that I can't seem to find.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Elves have such a set too, their ground zero is Tolkien and probably the fertility gods of Norse mythology. **Subsequent instances could be described in relation to ground zero. Even if they subverted it, they still had to subvert something.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**So, where did lizardmen originate from?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Note: I'm not familiar with this site's tags, so please help!&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonardo%27s_robot" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22998" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7569" RevisionGUID="d9b8ef26-f0fe-43dc-abd8-dfa6170b63d8" CreationDate="2020-08-11T19:17:41.977" UserId="3725" Text="Where did lizardmen come from?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="22999" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7569" RevisionGUID="d9b8ef26-f0fe-43dc-abd8-dfa6170b63d8" CreationDate="2020-08-11T19:17:41.977" UserId="3725" Text="|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23000" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7569" RevisionGUID="3cefca90-33c6-4706-a6ba-3bdf39a58885" CreationDate="2020-08-11T19:25:06.367" UserId="3725" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="Usually, fantasy creatures are easy to track back to mythology and folklore and there is only a handful I can't trace back. Of course, that can be because they're actually original, but oftentimes I feel like I've seen them before, and I can't grasp where. I mean, even for &quot;clockwork&quot; robots and automatons, you can look at [Leonardo da Vinci's knight][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, what lizardmen am I talking about? Well, here is a semi-rigid set of tropes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Oftentimes very primitive, even stone-age primitive.&#xD;&#xA; - Live in deserts, jungles, or swamps&#xD;&#xA; - Are actually cold-blooded&#xD;&#xA; - Little sexual dimorphism in appearance&#xD;&#xA; - Once had a great civilization that's now gone&#xD;&#xA; - Eat humans&#xD;&#xA; - Hiss often&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, you can take some away, but the fact that this set of characteristics even exists points to an origin point, or ground zero that I can't seem to find.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Elves have such a set too, their ground zero is Tolkien and probably the fertility gods of Norse mythology. **Subsequent instances could be described in relation to ground zero. Even if they subverted it, they still had to subvert something.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**So, where did lizardmen originate from?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Note: I'm not familiar with this site's tags, so please help!&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonardo%27s_robot" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23001" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7570" RevisionGUID="94868249-7bbb-40ea-a944-3809f2047ca3" CreationDate="2020-08-12T08:26:17.787" UserId="5511" Text="Egyptian mythology is a pretty good match. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **primitive**: the god Sobek is known from pre-dynastic texts. His name was used by several kings of the pre-dynastic era, and the oldest imagery of Sobek is from the bronze age.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **environment**: Sobek is associated with water, including the Nile and pools created by Nile flooding, which is where crocodiles reside to this day in Egypt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **cold-blooded**: it is improbable that ancient civilizations could make this biological distinction. It is a fairly recent biological categorization.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **sexual dimorphism**: Egyptian mythology has similarly depicted female (part) crocodile deities like [Ammit][2] and [Taweret][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **eat humans**: Ammit in the Book of the Dead devours the souls of the dead deemed unworthy. Sobek is, above all else, an aggressive and animalistic deity who lives up to the vicious reputation of his patron animal, the large and violent Nile crocodile/West African crocodile. Some of his common epithets betray this nature succinctly, the most notable of which being: &quot;he who loves robbery&quot;, &quot;he who eats while he also mates&quot;, and &quot;pointed of teeth&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/TrmbW.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammit&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taweret" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23002" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7571" RevisionGUID="5391c4e1-96ed-4a4e-a5e1-ec47dbbb775a" CreationDate="2020-08-13T07:31:43.410" UserId="5771" Text="Romans first worshipped Greek gods because the Greeks colonized the peninnsula first. Later cultures from the Near East, North Africa, the Caucusus and Anatolia had influence.  Remember that myth is religion and the differences between Greek, Roman, Egyptian, and any other mythologies are expressed in dogma, belief, and mysticism.  Structurally they are essentially the same.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To see the differences look at prescribed social behaviors and taboos.  Notice how women are treated, look at how they think about death, war, and afterlife.  Look at the relationship of man to the gods.  Russian Orthodox and Lutheran are both Christian sects but adherents of one wouldn't last five minutes with other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They only look the same on the surface but you have to get jiggy with it." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23004" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7573" RevisionGUID="1ec8e127-02b7-41b9-9a93-095f18e464a5" CreationDate="2020-08-13T08:38:53.773" UserId="5511" Text="**Natural Order**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Chinese&#xD;&#xA;   - the gods are energies or principles revealing, imitating and propagating the way of Heaven (Tian 天), which is the supreme godhead manifesting in the northern culmen of the starry vault of the skies and its order. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;   - Shangti is the supreme god of law, order, justice, and creation. He is also known as Jade Emperor, Yellow Emperor, or Yu Huang Shang-Ti, although there are sometimes important distinctions made between these names and Jade Emperor can mean another deity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Justice**&#xD;&#xA; - Anbay is a pre-Islamic deity who was originally worshipped in Qataban, in what is now southern Arabia. He was regarded as a deity of justice and an oracle&#xD;&#xA; - Datin was an oracular deity also associated with oaths and justice worshipped in pre-Islamic northern Arabia&#xD;&#xA; - Haukim is a pre-Islamic deity who was originally worshipped in Qataban, in what is now southern Arabia.[1] He was concerned with arbitration and the law.&#xD;&#xA; - Hendursaga is the god of law in Sumerian, Babylonian, and Akkadian mythology. &#xD;&#xA; - Mandanu in Babylonian and Akkadian mythology is a god of divine judgement. &#xD;&#xA; - Nahundi or Nahhundi (in Akkadian, Nahhunte) was the ancient Elamite god of the sun and of law. &#xD;&#xA; - Ninsusinak was the national god of the Elamite empire and consort of the mother goddess Pinikir. He was also god of oaths and judge of the dead. &#xD;&#xA; - Pugu is the sun god of the Yukaghir of Siberia. Like many other solar gods, he was also seen as a god of justice and law.&#xD;&#xA; - Utu was the ancient Mesopotamian sun god, god of justice, morality, and truth, and the twin of the Mesopotamian goddess Inanna (Ishtar in the Assyrio-Babylonian language)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Knowledge or wisdom**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Ancient Egypt&#xD;&#xA;   - Neith, goddess sometimes associated with wisdom&#xD;&#xA;   - Thoth, originally a moon deity, later became god of wisdom and scribe of the gods&#xD;&#xA;   - Sia, the deification of wisdom&#xD;&#xA;   - Isis, goddess of wisdom, magic and kingship. She was said to be &quot;more clever than a million gods&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;   - Seshat, goddess of wisdom, knowledge, and writing. Scribe of the gods. Credited with the invention of writing and the alphabet.&#xD;&#xA; - West African&#xD;&#xA;   - Anansi, the spider trickster and spirit of all stories, best known from Akan and Ashanti folklore; according to some tales, also creator of the sun, moon and stars, and teacher of agriculture to humans&#xD;&#xA;   - Orunmila, god of wisdom, knowledge, and divination&#xD;&#xA; - Armenian&#xD;&#xA;   - Anahit, goddess of wisdom&#xD;&#xA;   - Tir, the god of written language, schooling, rhetoric, wisdom, and the arts&#xD;&#xA; - Celtic&#xD;&#xA;   - Ogma, a figure from Irish and Scottish mythology, said to have invented the Ogham alphabet&#xD;&#xA; - Chinese&#xD;&#xA;   - Wenchang Wang, the god of literature and scholarship&#xD;&#xA;   - Kui Xing, God of examinations&#xD;&#xA;   - Zhuyu Xingjun, God of examination successes&#xD;&#xA;   - Guan Yu, God of military exams&#xD;&#xA;   - Lu Dongbin, God of daoist inner alchemy knowledge&#xD;&#xA;   - Laozi, God of wisdom&#xD;&#xA; - Hindu&#xD;&#xA;   - Saraswati, goddess of knowledge, creativity and speech&#xD;&#xA;   - Brihaspati, Guru of the gods, bestower of knowledge and eloquence&#xD;&#xA;   - Shukra, Guru of the demons, bestower of knowledge&#xD;&#xA;   - Dakshinamurthy, aspect of the god Shiva as a guru and bestower of knowledge&#xD;&#xA;   - Hayagriva, god of knowledge and wisdom&#xD;&#xA;   - Gayatri, form of Saraswati and the goddess of hymns&#xD;&#xA; - Roman&#xD;&#xA;   - Egeria, a water nymph who gives wisdom and prophecy in return for libations of water or milk at her sacred grove&#xD;&#xA;   - Fabulinus, the God who teaches children to speak&#xD;&#xA;   - Minerva, goddess of wisdom and crafts, the Roman equivalent of Athena&#xD;&#xA;   - Providentia, goddess of forethought&#xD;&#xA;   - Neptune, the god of the sea and freshwater, is said to have all the knowledge of water&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23005" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7574" RevisionGUID="e354fba1-b73b-41a6-999e-d6c4e216d6ed" CreationDate="2020-08-13T08:40:45.073" UserId="3662" Text="Not strictly lizard people but snake people were very common in mythology and they could well have evolved from that idea.&#xA;&#xA;From Greek Lahmias to Hindu Nagas and gods or monsters like Echidna or Typhon snake people with human and snake features seem to have spring up all over the world.&#xA;&#xA;Another possibility (and the only early reference I can see to anything very similar) is dragon kings in Chinese Mythology which were occasionally depicted as half-man half-dragon.&#xA;&#xA;My last suggestion would be that they are an entirely modern fantasy creation, with no myth or folklore roots, inspired by plain old dragons or dinosaurs. A race of intelligent reptilian humanoids plays nicely to people's fascination with both. Reptiles are also nicely alien (and indeed many alien myths involve extraterrestrials being reptile like) so make good fantasy races that are vastly different from humans, elves etc.  &#xA;If this were the case I'm not sure what the original fantasy work would be to include them, they are very prominent in Warhammer which probably helped populise them but that's a quite recent work so probably not the origin. They also feature quite a bit in different forms in DnD but I imagine there may be a novel that predates that too." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23006" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7575" RevisionGUID="0ab81b0d-7edf-4c42-a4ec-d7b561d1472c" CreationDate="2020-08-13T19:57:25.693" UserId="7160" Text="The creature could be a s spriggan or sprɪdʒən. But as for the cat I do not know, it may be a familiar or similar kind of spirit but to be travelling with a sprɪdʒən would be strange and their are guardians more than anything " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23007" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7576" RevisionGUID="6bb065fb-7bc0-4c7b-9807-5d2e856d673b" CreationDate="2020-08-13T20:36:23.587" UserId="1241" Text="**Where did lizardmen come from?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One can dismiss that it came from the 1954 American movie [***The Creature from the Black Lagoon***][1]!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Gill Man][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Before going on, let us be clear as to what a lizard is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [**Lizards**][3] are a widespread group of squamate reptiles, with over 6,000 species,[1] ranging across all continents except Antarctica, as well as most oceanic island chains. The group is paraphyletic as it excludes the snakes and Amphisbaenia; some lizards are more closely related to these two excluded groups than they are to other lizards. Lizards range in size from chameleons and geckos a few centimeters long to the 3 meter long Komodo dragon.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Most lizards are quadrupedal, running with a strong side-to-side motion. Others are legless, and have long snake-like bodies. Some such as the forest-dwelling Draco lizards are able to glide. They are often territorial, the males fighting off other males and signalling, often with brightly colours, to attract mates and to intimidate rivals. Lizards are mainly carnivorous, often being sit-and-wait predators; many smaller species eat insects, while the Komodo eats mammals as big as water buffalo.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lizards make use of a variety of antipredator adaptations, including venom, camouflage, reflex bleeding, and the ability to sacrifice and regrow their tails. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fiction, anthropomorphic reptilian races or beings commonly appear in fantasy and science fiction. They can be based on various reptiles, like crocodiles, alligators, snakes, dinosaurs, and the fictional dragons. They are often depicted as powerful warriors, though their relative intelligence to humans varies - as with other anthropomorphic races, a greater resemblance to humans often denotes more &quot;civilized&quot; behaviour.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Many will associate this in one form or other with the serpent in the Garden of Eden and often depicted as half man and half snake.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1.Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman: 'Yea, hath God said: Ye shall not eat of any tree of the garden? 2.And the woman said unto the serpent: 'Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; 3.but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said: Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.' - [Genesis 3:1-3][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Adam, Eve, and the (female) serpent at the entrance to Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris, France, is the portrayal of the image of the serpent as a mirror of Eve was common in earlier iconography as a result of the identification of women as the source of human original sin.][5]][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Adam, Eve, and the (female) serpent at the entrance to Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris, France, is the portrayal of the image of the serpent as a mirror of Eve was common in earlier iconography as a result of the identification of women as the source of human original sin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In one of the oldest stories ever written, the [Epic of Gilgamesh][6] (c. 2100 BC), Gilgamesh loses the power of immortality, stolen by a snake. The serpent was a widespread figure in the mythology of the Ancient Near East. Ouroboros is an ancient symbol of a serpent eating its own tail that represents the perpetual cyclic renewal of life, the eternal return, and the cycle of life, death and rebirth, leading to immortality.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Archaeologists have uncovered serpent cult objects in Bronze Age strata at several pre-Israelite cities in Canaan: two at Tel Megiddo, one at Gezer, one in the sanctum sanctorum of the Area H temple at Hazor, and two at Shechem. In the surrounding region, a late Bronze Age Hittite shrine in northern Syria contained a bronze statue of a god holding a serpent in one hand and a staff in the other. In sixth-century Babylon, a pair of bronze serpents flanked each of the four doorways of the temple of Esagila. At the Babylonian New Year festival, the priest was to commission from a woodworker, a metalworker and a goldsmith two images one of which &quot;shall hold in its left hand a snake of cedar, raising its right [hand] to the god Nabu&quot;. At the tell of Tepe Gawra, at least seventeen Early Bronze Age Assyrian bronze serpents were recovered. **The Sumerian fertility god Ningizzida was sometimes depicted as a serpent with a human head, eventually becoming a god of healing and magic**. - [Serpents in the Bible][7]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do not believe that one can be able to verify another lizard like humanoid folklore or legends older than the ***Epic of Gilgamesh***. Even the Chinese, Japanese, Egyptian or Greek folklore can not be dated older.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is very possible that the ***Epic of Gilgamesh*** Is the origin of Lizardmen folklore. Of course the Hebrew Scriptures has some part to play in all this, in a more indirect manner.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creature_from_the_Black_Lagoon&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/JW5T1.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lizard&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0103.htm#1&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/F8HO4.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpents_in_the_Bible" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23008" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7576" RevisionGUID="f0bc5e22-f1f3-456d-89fa-aabe1df147a9" CreationDate="2020-08-13T20:54:33.440" UserId="1241" Comment="added 1757 characters in body" Text="**Where did lizardmen come from?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One can dismiss that it came from the 1954 American movie [***The Creature from the Black Lagoon***][1]!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Gill Man][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Before going on, let us be clear as to what a lizard is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [**Lizards**][3] are a widespread group of squamate reptiles, with over 6,000 species,[1] ranging across all continents except Antarctica, as well as most oceanic island chains. The group is paraphyletic as it excludes the snakes and Amphisbaenia; some lizards are more closely related to these two excluded groups than they are to other lizards. Lizards range in size from chameleons and geckos a few centimeters long to the 3 meter long Komodo dragon.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Most lizards are quadrupedal, running with a strong side-to-side motion. Others are legless, and have long snake-like bodies. Some such as the forest-dwelling Draco lizards are able to glide. They are often territorial, the males fighting off other males and signalling, often with brightly colours, to attract mates and to intimidate rivals. Lizards are mainly carnivorous, often being sit-and-wait predators; many smaller species eat insects, while the Komodo eats mammals as big as water buffalo.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lizards make use of a variety of antipredator adaptations, including venom, camouflage, reflex bleeding, and the ability to sacrifice and regrow their tails. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fiction, anthropomorphic reptilian races or beings commonly appear in fantasy and science fiction. They can be based on various reptiles, like crocodiles, alligators, snakes, dinosaurs, and the fictional dragons. They are often depicted as powerful warriors, though their relative intelligence to humans varies - as with other anthropomorphic races, a greater resemblance to humans often denotes more &quot;civilized&quot; behaviour.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Many will associate this in one form or other with the serpent in the Garden of Eden and often depicted as half man and half snake.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1.Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman: 'Yea, hath God said: Ye shall not eat of any tree of the garden? 2.And the woman said unto the serpent: 'Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; 3.but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said: Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.' - [Genesis 3:1-3][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the Ancients the Devil sought out to devour souls (people).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; God placed Adam in the Garden to tend it and warned Adam not to eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, &quot;for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.&quot; The serpent tempts Eve to eat of the Tree, but Eve tells the serpent what God had said (Genesis 3:3). The serpent replied that she would not surely die (Genesis 3:4) and that if she eats the fruit of the tree &quot;then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.&quot; (Genesis 3:5) Eve ate the fruit and gave it to Adam and he also ate. God, who was walking in the Garden, finds out and to prevent Adam and Eve from eating the fruit of the Tree of Life and living forever, they are banished from the Garden and God posts an angelic guard. The serpent is punished for its role in the fall by being a curse that God change the serpent into a snake to crawl on its belly and eat dust.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There is a debate about whether the serpent in Eden should be viewed figuratively or as a literal animal. According to one midrashic interpretation in Rabbinic literature, the serpent represents sexual desire; another interpretation is that the snake is the yetzer hara. Modern Rabbinic ideas include interpreting the story as a psychological allegory where Adam represents reasoning faculties, Eve the emotional faculties, and the serpent the hedonic sexual/physical faculties. Voltaire, drawing on Socinian influences, wrote: &quot;It was so decidedly a real serpent, that all its species, which had before walked on their feet, were condemned to crawl on their bellies. No serpent, no animal of any kind, is called Satan, or Belzebub, or Devil, in the Pentateuch.&quot; - [Serpents in the Bible][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Adam, Eve, and the (female) serpent at the entrance to Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris, France, is the portrayal of the image of the serpent as a mirror of Eve was common in earlier iconography as a result of the identification of women as the source of human original sin.][6]][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Adam, Eve, and the (female) serpent at the entrance to Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris, France, is the portrayal of the image of the serpent as a mirror of Eve was common in earlier iconography as a result of the identification of women as the source of human original sin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In one of the oldest stories ever written, the [Epic of Gilgamesh][7] (c. 2100 BC), Gilgamesh loses the power of immortality, stolen by a snake. The serpent was a widespread figure in the mythology of the Ancient Near East. Ouroboros is an ancient symbol of a serpent eating its own tail that represents the perpetual cyclic renewal of life, the eternal return, and the cycle of life, death and rebirth, leading to immortality.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Archaeologists have uncovered serpent cult objects in Bronze Age strata at several pre-Israelite cities in Canaan: two at Tel Megiddo, one at Gezer, one in the sanctum sanctorum of the Area H temple at Hazor, and two at Shechem. In the surrounding region, a late Bronze Age Hittite shrine in northern Syria contained a bronze statue of a god holding a serpent in one hand and a staff in the other. In sixth-century Babylon, a pair of bronze serpents flanked each of the four doorways of the temple of Esagila. At the Babylonian New Year festival, the priest was to commission from a woodworker, a metalworker and a goldsmith two images one of which &quot;shall hold in its left hand a snake of cedar, raising its right [hand] to the god Nabu&quot;. At the tell of Tepe Gawra, at least seventeen Early Bronze Age Assyrian bronze serpents were recovered. **The Sumerian fertility god Ningizzida was sometimes depicted as a serpent with a human head, eventually becoming a god of healing and magic**. - [Serpents in the Bible][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do not believe that one can be able to verify another lizard like humanoid folklore or legends older than the ***Epic of Gilgamesh***. Even the Chinese, Japanese, Egyptian or Greek folklore can not be dated older.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is very possible that the ***Epic of Gilgamesh*** Is the origin of Lizardmen folklore. Of course the Hebrew Scriptures has some part to play in all this, in a more indirect manner.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creature_from_the_Black_Lagoon&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/JW5T1.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lizard&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0103.htm#1&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpents_in_the_Bible&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/F8HO4.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23009" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7576" RevisionGUID="b2575f95-758d-431e-b247-520bab9a178f" CreationDate="2020-08-13T21:01:26.127" UserId="1241" Comment="added 1757 characters in body" Text="**Where did lizardmen come from?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One can dismiss that it came from the 1954 American movie [***The Creature from the Black Lagoon***][1]!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Gill Man][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Before going on, let us be clear as to what a lizard is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [**Lizards**][3] are a widespread group of squamate reptiles, with over 6,000 species,[1] ranging across all continents except Antarctica, as well as most oceanic island chains. The group is paraphyletic as it excludes the snakes and Amphisbaenia; some lizards are more closely related to these two excluded groups than they are to other lizards. Lizards range in size from chameleons and geckos a few centimeters long to the 3 meter long Komodo dragon.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Most lizards are quadrupedal, running with a strong side-to-side motion. Others are legless, and have long snake-like bodies. Some such as the forest-dwelling Draco lizards are able to glide. They are often territorial, the males fighting off other males and signalling, often with brightly colours, to attract mates and to intimidate rivals. Lizards are mainly carnivorous, often being sit-and-wait predators; many smaller species eat insects, while the Komodo eats mammals as big as water buffalo.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lizards make use of a variety of antipredator adaptations, including venom, camouflage, reflex bleeding, and the ability to sacrifice and regrow their tails. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fiction, anthropomorphic reptilian races or beings commonly appear in fantasy and science fiction. They can be based on various reptiles, like crocodiles, alligators, snakes, dinosaurs, and the fictional dragons. They are often depicted as powerful warriors, though their relative intelligence to humans varies - as with other anthropomorphic races, a greater resemblance to humans often denotes more &quot;civilized&quot; behaviour.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Many will associate this in one form or other with the serpent in the Garden of Eden and often depicted as half man and half snake.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1.Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman: 'Yea, hath God said: Ye shall not eat of any tree of the garden? 2.And the woman said unto the serpent: 'Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; 3.but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said: Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.' - [Genesis 3:1-3][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the Ancients the Devil sought out to devour souls (people).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. - [1 Peter 5:8][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the Ancients the serpent represented sexual promiscuity and sin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; God placed Adam in the Garden to tend it and warned Adam not to eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, &quot;for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.&quot; The serpent tempts Eve to eat of the Tree, but Eve tells the serpent what God had said (Genesis 3:3). The serpent replied that she would not surely die (Genesis 3:4) and that if she eats the fruit of the tree &quot;then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.&quot; (Genesis 3:5) Eve ate the fruit and gave it to Adam and he also ate. God, who was walking in the Garden, finds out and to prevent Adam and Eve from eating the fruit of the Tree of Life and living forever, they are banished from the Garden and God posts an angelic guard. The serpent is punished for its role in the fall by being a curse that God change the serpent into a snake to crawl on its belly and eat dust.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There is a debate about whether the serpent in Eden should be viewed figuratively or as a literal animal. According to one midrashic interpretation in Rabbinic literature, the serpent represents sexual desire; another interpretation is that the snake is the yetzer hara. Modern Rabbinic ideas include interpreting the story as a psychological allegory where Adam represents reasoning faculties, Eve the emotional faculties, and the serpent the hedonic sexual/physical faculties. Voltaire, drawing on Socinian influences, wrote: &quot;It was so decidedly a real serpent, that all its species, which had before walked on their feet, were condemned to crawl on their bellies. No serpent, no animal of any kind, is called Satan, or Belzebub, or Devil, in the Pentateuch.&quot; - [Serpents in the Bible][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Adam, Eve, and the (female) serpent at the entrance to Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris, France, is the portrayal of the image of the serpent as a mirror of Eve was common in earlier iconography as a result of the identification of women as the source of human original sin.][7]][7]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Adam, Eve, and the (female) serpent at the entrance to Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris, France, is the portrayal of the image of the serpent as a mirror of Eve was common in earlier iconography as a result of the identification of women as the source of human original sin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In one of the oldest stories ever written, the [Epic of Gilgamesh][8] (c. 2100 BC), Gilgamesh loses the power of immortality, stolen by a snake. The serpent was a widespread figure in the mythology of the Ancient Near East. Ouroboros is an ancient symbol of a serpent eating its own tail that represents the perpetual cyclic renewal of life, the eternal return, and the cycle of life, death and rebirth, leading to immortality.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Archaeologists have uncovered serpent cult objects in Bronze Age strata at several pre-Israelite cities in Canaan: two at Tel Megiddo, one at Gezer, one in the sanctum sanctorum of the Area H temple at Hazor, and two at Shechem. In the surrounding region, a late Bronze Age Hittite shrine in northern Syria contained a bronze statue of a god holding a serpent in one hand and a staff in the other. In sixth-century Babylon, a pair of bronze serpents flanked each of the four doorways of the temple of Esagila. At the Babylonian New Year festival, the priest was to commission from a woodworker, a metalworker and a goldsmith two images one of which &quot;shall hold in its left hand a snake of cedar, raising its right [hand] to the god Nabu&quot;. At the tell of Tepe Gawra, at least seventeen Early Bronze Age Assyrian bronze serpents were recovered. **The Sumerian fertility god Ningizzida was sometimes depicted as a serpent with a human head, eventually becoming a god of healing and magic**. - [Serpents in the Bible][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do not believe that one can be able to verify another lizard like humanoid folklore or legends older than the ***Epic of Gilgamesh***. Even the Chinese, Japanese, Egyptian or Greek folklore can not be dated older.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is very possible that the ***Epic of Gilgamesh*** Is the origin of Lizardmen folklore. Of course the Hebrew Scriptures has some part to play in all this, in a more indirect manner.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creature_from_the_Black_Lagoon&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/JW5T1.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lizard&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0103.htm#1&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://biblehub.com/1_peter/5-8.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpents_in_the_Bible&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/F8HO4.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23010" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5461" RevisionGUID="de24cd68-358f-40af-8889-a54f3038dadf" CreationDate="2020-08-14T22:14:21.170" UserId="5726" Comment="minor tweaks " Text="This question may be a little controversial so try to keep your answers as **academically** as possible. (take an example from @DukeZhou )&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**If on the subject general answers are also accepted**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am familiar with the fact that this happened in pretty much every mythology, but Greek mythology seems to utilize it a lot. And I was wondering if there was a special reason for this behaviour apart from being the &quot;go-to deed&quot; for the writers of antiquity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While reading up on some Greek myths I started to notice a recurring pattern in the act of rape.&#xD;&#xA;Is there a reason for the writers in a considerable amount of Greek mythologies epics and poems to resort to rape? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is rape featured so prominently and what is the (if any) hidden meaning behind the rapes? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is the list I put together as defined by Wikipedia:&#xD;&#xA;[list 1][1]. [list 2][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Aethra][3] (mother of [Theseus][4]); was raped by [Poseidon][5]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Antiope][6]; raped by [Zeus][7].&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Apemosyne][8]; raped by [Hermes][9]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Callisto][10]; raped by [Zeus][7].&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Cassandra][11]; raped by [Ajax the Lesser][12], and later forced into&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [concubinage][13] by [Ἀgamémnōn][14].&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Chrysippus][15]; raped by his tutor [Laius][16].&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Demeter][17]; according to an [Arcadian myth][18], [Demeter][17] was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; being pursued by [Poseidon][5] and she changed into a horse to escape&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him. [Poseidon][5], however, transformed himself into a horse and,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after cornering [Demeter][17], raped her, resulting in her giving&#xD;&#xA;&gt; birth to [Despoina][19], a maiden goddess, and [Arion][20], a divine&#xD;&#xA;&gt; horse.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Europa][21]; raped by [Zeus][7] after he abducted her in the form of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a bull.(as seen on the Greek €2 coin) &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;img src=&quot;https://i.stack.imgur.com/Uz8NZ.jpg&quot; width=&quot;100&quot; height=&quot;100&quot;/&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Ganymede][22], son of [Tros of Dardania][23]; taken up to [Mount&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Olympus][24] by [Zeus][7] in the form of an eagle.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Leda][25], raped by [Zeus][7] in the form of a swan.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The daughters of [Leucippus][26], [Phoebe][27] and [Hilaeira][28],&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were abducted, raped and later married by [Castor and Pollux][29]. In&#xD;&#xA;&gt; return, [Idas][30] and [Lynceus][31], nephews of [Leucippus][26] and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rival suitors, killed [Castor][29]. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Medusa][32]; raped by [Poseidon][5] in Athena's temple.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Odysseus][33]; raped by [Calypso][34] on the island of [Ogygia][35]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [in his seven year stay][36].&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Persephone][37]; raped by [Hades][38] and, in some versions, raped by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her father, [Zeus][7].&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Philomela][39]; raped by her brother-in-law [Tereus][40].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rape_victims_from_ancient_history_and_mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mythological_rape_victims&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aethra_(mother_of_Theseus)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theseus&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poseidon&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiope_of_Thebes&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apemosyne&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callisto_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassandra&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_the_Lesser&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concubinage&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agamemnon&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysippus_of_Elis&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laius&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demeter&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/Despoine.html&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Despoina&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arion&#xD;&#xA;  [21]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(consort_of_Zeus)&#xD;&#xA;  [22]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganymede_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [23]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tros_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Olympus&#xD;&#xA;  [25]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leda_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [26]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leucippus_of_Messenia&#xD;&#xA;  [27]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebe_of_Messenia&#xD;&#xA;  [28]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilaeira&#xD;&#xA;  [29]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castor_and_Pollux&#xD;&#xA;  [30]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idas&#xD;&#xA;  [31]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynceus_of_Argos&#xD;&#xA;  [32]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medusa&#xD;&#xA;  [33]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odysseus&#xD;&#xA;  [34]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calypso_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [35]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogygia&#xD;&#xA;  [36]: https://www.greekmyths-greekmythology.com/calypso-odysseus-greek-myth/&#xD;&#xA;  [37]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persephone&#xD;&#xA;  [38]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades&#xD;&#xA;  [39]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philomela&#xD;&#xA;  [40]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tereus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23011" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5477" RevisionGUID="ae155a59-23a7-40e9-911a-e08d34f6c70d" CreationDate="2020-08-14T22:32:18.950" UserId="5726" Comment="minor tweaks" Text="The [Grim Reaper][1] is a possible candidate. He or She is more or less a “neutral” entity, who works for both God and the Devil. Doing his or her job. That’s the only creature (as far as I know) I can think of who could be considered as half way between an angel and a demon. This is thought of in the specific sense that neither an angel or demon can get away with the act of snatching a soul without incurring the wrath of either.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you could tell us which **grimoire** it is we could search more specifically.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mostly these creatures feature in videogames like Diablo called the [Nephalem][2] (which is a bastardization of [Nephilim][3]) or the Darksiders games in which 4 members of the [Nephilim][4] are parallel to the [Four Horseman of the Apocalypse][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All in all angels and demons are opposites. According to some sources they are exactly the same but the daemons/demons are corrupted angels who went down with Lucifer in his rebellion against the Creator. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  - **Angels** are considered to be *good* and **demons** are considered to be&#xD;&#xA;   *evil*.&#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;  - **Angels** are good spirits and considered to be saviours of mankind&#xD;&#xA;   whereas demons are evil spirits who tempt mankind to indulge in evil&#xD;&#xA;   acts.&#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;  - **Angels** are known to be protectors of the innocent and the faithful.&#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;  - **Angels** are known to perform many tasks that include maintaining&#xD;&#xA;   order of the universe and also bridging the gap between mankind and&#xD;&#xA;   God.&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;  - The **demons** want utter chaos of the universe. &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;   - They are not protectors but only destructors. &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;   - They wish to widen the gap between human kind and God.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;  - The **angels** impart love, kindness and brotherhood whereas demons&#xD;&#xA;   impart hatred and cruelty among mankind. &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;  - The **demons** believe in rebellion against God.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So putting these two entities together would be illogical.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would really like a name or link to the grimoire and be proven wrong though. I have been searching some but have not found the specific mention. Given the right source I would be more than happy to search further.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_(personification)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://diablo.fandom.com/wiki/Nephalem&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://darksiders.fandom.com/wiki/Nephilim&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Apocalypse" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23012" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7577" RevisionGUID="aaeb1982-7bd3-405f-b45a-171396edcfe9" CreationDate="2020-08-15T02:23:58.610" UserId="7163" Text="Greek:&#xD;&#xA;• Order and Justice: Zeus is the Lord of Order and Justice (Zeus Nomos &quot;Zeus the Lawgiver&quot;, Zeus Ktêsios &quot;Zeus Protector of Property&quot;, Zeus Horkios &quot;Zeus Watcher of Oaths&quot;, Zeus Kosmêtês &quot;Zeus the Orderer&quot;). The Horai were the daughters of Zeus and Themis (&quot;Moral Order&quot;). Of them Dike (&quot;Justice&quot;) was especially connected to Zeus. So, overall Zeus is the prime god of order and justice.&#xD;&#xA;• Wisdom: 'Metis' literally means &quot;wisdom&quot;. In myth, Zeus swallowed the Titaness Metis and birthed Athena from his head. Thus, Athena is metis incarnated through Zeus' mind. Hermes was the god of wisdom as cunning.&#xD;&#xA;Roman:&#xD;&#xA;Jupiter and Minerva correspond exactly to Zeus and Athena.&#xD;&#xA;Germanic:&#xD;&#xA;• Order and Justice: Tyr, who is a linguistic equivalent of Zeus, is the god of justice and oaths. He is the god of the 'Thing', which was the legal assembly.&#xD;&#xA;• Wisdom: Odin was the god of widom. The Romans equated him to Mercury/Hermes.&#xD;&#xA;Indian:&#xD;&#xA;• Order and Justice: Varuna and Mitra were the Lords of the 'Rta' or &quot;Cosmic Order&quot;. They also have clear &#xD;&#xA;• " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23013" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7577" RevisionGUID="e39a82ca-ba43-47e2-b8d2-4bcdcf7f3901" CreationDate="2020-08-15T02:41:26.917" UserId="7163" Comment="added 484 characters in body" Text="Greek:&#xD;&#xA;• Order and Justice: Zeus is the Lord of Order and Justice (Zeus Nomos &quot;Zeus the Lawgiver&quot;, Zeus Ktêsios &quot;Zeus Protector of Property&quot;, Zeus Horkios &quot;Zeus Watcher of Oaths&quot;, Zeus Kosmêtês &quot;Zeus the Orderer&quot;). The Horai were the daughters of Zeus and Themis (&quot;Moral Order&quot;). Of them Dike (&quot;Justice&quot;) was especially connected to Zeus. So, overall Zeus is the prime god of order and justice.&#xD;&#xA;• Wisdom: 'Metis' literally means &quot;wisdom&quot;. In myth, Zeus swallowed the Titaness Metis and birthed Athena from his head. Thus, Athena is metis incarnated through Zeus' mind. Hermes was the god of wisdom as cunning.&#xD;&#xA;Roman:&#xD;&#xA;Jupiter and Minerva correspond exactly to Zeus and Athena.&#xD;&#xA;Germanic:&#xD;&#xA;• Order and Justice: Tyr, who is a linguistic equivalent of Zeus, is the god of justice and oaths. He is the god of the 'Thing', which was the legal assembly.&#xD;&#xA;• Wisdom: Odin was the god of widom. The Romans equated him to Mercury/Hermes.&#xD;&#xA;Indian:&#xD;&#xA;• Order and Justice: Varuna and Mitra were the Lords of the 'Rta' or &quot;Cosmic Order&quot;. They also have clear parallels to Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;• Wisdom: Sarasvati is the goddess of wisdom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Outside of Indo-European myths you have the following.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Egyptian:&#xD;&#xA;• Order and Justice: Maat is the goddess of Order and Justice.&#xD;&#xA;• Wisdom: Thoth is the embodiment of wisdom and the husband of Maat.&#xD;&#xA;Mesopotamian:&#xD;&#xA;• Order and Justice: Utu-Shamash, the sun god, is the god of order and justice.&#xD;&#xA;• Wisdom: Nanna-Sin, the moon god, is the god of wisdom. Enki is a god of the kind of cunning intelligence, like Hermes." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23014" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7578" RevisionGUID="320933a0-5531-4bc8-a299-e3eaa9d793bf" CreationDate="2020-08-15T16:27:25.697" UserId="7167" Text="The male fox incarnation has a parchment or key in his mouth.  The &quot;ball&quot; is actually the pill of immortality.  The parchment/key is the contract a mortal agrees to with the foxes. Since foxes are shapeshifters, they can appear as female or male.  This duality is congruent with the principles of Yin/Yang.  You don't control foxes unless you are a Taoist/Shinto fox master.  You have an agreement with them. This agreement allows the mortal the opportunity to develop their soul in this life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Center For Traditional Taoist Studies published a 3 volume set on Fox lore called: The Tao of Celestial Foxes-The Way to Immortality. It has an extensive bibliography to say the least" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23015" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7579" RevisionGUID="da1d7ccd-2749-43d1-b65a-4204c5eb66ae" CreationDate="2020-08-15T16:30:08.857" UserId="7167" Text="Who knows.  But it's not 1000 years.  Each tail represents 1000 years.  They must reach the status of Celestial Fox with 9 tails to then incarnate further.  They are spiritual creatures that have their own spiritual path just like mortals.  That is the length of their spiritual test as a Hu Li or Kitsune." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23016" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7578" RevisionGUID="78a709f5-5202-4cb3-8918-bc7166cc57d3" CreationDate="2020-08-15T16:35:36.630" UserId="7167" Comment="added 87 characters in body" Text="If the fox has a &quot;ball&quot; in it's mouth it is actually the female incarnation of a fox.  The male fox incarnation has a parchment or key in his mouth.  The &quot;ball&quot; is actually the pill of immortality.  The parchment/key is the contract a mortal agrees to with the foxes. Since foxes are shapeshifters, they can appear as female or male.  This duality is congruent with the principles of Yin/Yang.  You don't control foxes unless you are a Taoist/Shinto fox master.  You have an agreement with them. This agreement allows the mortal the opportunity to develop their soul in this life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Center For Traditional Taoist Studies published a 3 volume set on Fox lore called: The Tao of Celestial Foxes-The Way to Immortality. It has an extensive bibliography to say the least" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23022" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7580" RevisionGUID="761eb11d-a2c1-4803-8b40-b3dfc4111e99" CreationDate="2020-08-16T06:20:35.050" UserId="5511" Text="The Japanese tales are an adoption of Chinese mythology's  *húli jīng* (狐狸精), appearing in a collection of tales from the Warring States, the *[Shan Hai Jing][1]* (山海經). The life span of the creature is only mentioned twice in this huge volume, with conflicting life spans:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the 海外西經 volume:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 海外西經:	 白民之國在龍魚北，白身被髮。有乘黃，其狀如狐，其背上有角，乘之壽**二千歲**。&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This describes the creature as yellow with horns, and a **life span of two-thousand years**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the 海內北經 volume:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 海內北經:	 犬封國曰犬戎國，狀如犬。有一女子，方跪進柸食。有文馬，縞身朱鬣，目若黃金，名曰吉量，乘之壽**千歲**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This describes a luck-bringing creature with a **life span of a thousand years**, the characters used to describe the creature mean &quot;red hyena&quot; (紅色的鬣狗).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://ctext.org/shan-hai-jing" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23023" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7581" RevisionGUID="22aec291-0d98-43fe-a3f6-d85489537854" CreationDate="2020-08-16T19:54:24.650" UserId="7163" Text="&quot;Technically&quot; the offspring of angels and demons would be an angel, because demons were fallen angels. The nature of the fallen angels was due to choice rather than their essence, so to speak.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This comes down to layers of history. Various grimoires, attributed to ancient figures like Solomon, were the product of combining fringe writings from Judaism and Christianity with late Hellenistic paganism, ideas from the Kabbalah and a lot of &quot;artistic license&quot;. This started in Roman times, but ones like the one you're speaking of (likely some form of the &quot;Key of Solomon&quot;) dates from the 14th to 15th century. The Key of Solomon spawned numerous variations and copy-cats. From that perspective you could have dozens and dozens of variations of angelic and demonic mythology, each with different names for various concepts." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23024" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7582" RevisionGUID="567abfe9-e1ec-4265-899d-df2675718451" CreationDate="2020-08-16T20:57:32.837" UserId="7163" Text="Absolutely. I can think of at least three separate strands in the development of Heracles/Hercules:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Walter Burkert mentions in his book &quot;Greek Religion&quot; that Heracles at least partially derives from an ancient shamanic hunter figure who hunts animals and journeys to the Underworld. That's the core of his myth, hunting beasts and finally ending up in Hades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. Heracles also incorporates elements of the Proto-Indo-European myth of the Thunder God who defeats the Primordial Dragon. This is seen in the myth of Heracles and the Hydra. Among Indo-European cultures you have: Thor and Jormungandr (Germanic), Indra and Vrtra (Indic), Tarḫunz and Illuyanka (Hittite/Luwian), etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. The Roman Hercules incorporates material from before the Greek introduction of Heracles, like his battle with the fire giant Cacus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another source migh be a Greek proto-myth about the patron founding hero of the Greek people. There are common traits that repeat in stories about the Greek heroes. For instance, Theseus has 6 &quot;labours&quot; in parallel to Heracles' twelve. They also share material about hunting the Cretan Bull. There are a lot of other parallels like this between the myths of the great Greek heroes, suggesting a common core for the myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another suggestion by various mythologists is that at least part of his myths originate from Near-Easyern sources, like Gilgamesh.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you count them all, that would be five distinct sources for the origin of Heracles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hope this helps.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23025" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7583" RevisionGUID="a1a6df0f-8d46-4b1e-aba3-6c43b203386c" CreationDate="2020-08-16T21:26:43.687" UserId="7163" Text="While I agree with much of what has been written already, I think there is one obvious aspect that has not been directly expressed. There's a lot of rape in Greek myth because rape happened a lot. The ancient Greeks were engaged in an unusually high amount of warfare, which breeds the kind of anarchy where rape is rampant. Ancient Greeks were possibly more transparent about things in their myths as well and their depictions of their gods more human.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23026" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7581" RevisionGUID="7b510a52-ffe4-4583-add2-6f8bd5baef19" CreationDate="2020-08-16T21:32:10.117" UserId="7163" Comment="added 81 characters in body" Text="&quot;Technically&quot; the offspring of angels and demons would be an angel, because demons were fallen angels. The nature of the fallen angels was due to choice rather than their essence, so to speak. This would be the technical answer based on mainstream Judeo-Christian theology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This comes down to layers of history. Various grimoires, attributed to ancient figures like Solomon, were the product of combining fringe writings from Judaism and Christianity with late Hellenistic paganism, ideas from the Kabbalah and a lot of &quot;artistic license&quot;. This started in Roman times, but ones like the one you're speaking of (likely some form of the &quot;Key of Solomon&quot;) date from the 14th to 15th century. The Key of Solomon spawned numerous variations and copy-cats. From that perspective you could have dozens and dozens of variations of angelic and demonic mythology, each with different names for various concepts." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23027" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7582" RevisionGUID="e7ca78c2-bd7d-4fa7-931e-36c93ef3b200" CreationDate="2020-08-16T22:46:57.327" UserId="7163" Comment="edited body" Text="Absolutely. I can think of at least three separate strands in the development of Heracles/Hercules:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Walter Burkert mentions in his book &quot;Greek Religion&quot; that Heracles at least partially derives from an ancient shamanic hunter figure who hunts animals and journeys to the Underworld. That's the core of his myth, hunting beasts and finally ending up in Hades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. Heracles also incorporates elements of the Proto-Indo-European myth of the Thunder God who defeats the Primordial Dragon. This is seen in the myth of Heracles and the Hydra. Among Indo-European cultures you have: Thor and Jormungandr (Germanic), Indra and Vrtra (Indic), Tarḫunz and Illuyanka (Hittite/Luwian), etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. The Roman Hercules incorporates material from before the Greek introduction of Heracles, like his battle with the fire giant Cacus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another source migh be a Greek proto-myth about the patron founding hero of the Greek people. There are common traits that repeat in stories about the Greek heroes. For instance, Theseus has 6 &quot;labours&quot; in parallel to Heracles' twelve. They also share material about hunting the Cretan Bull. There are a lot of other parallels like this between the myths of the great Greek heroes, suggesting a common core for the myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another suggestion by various mythologists is that at least part of his myths originate from Near-Eastern sources, like Gilgamesh.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you count them all, that would be five distinct sources for the origin of Heracles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hope this helps.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23028" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7584" RevisionGUID="e103d3c1-8a42-4b54-b65a-7dd697130ec5" CreationDate="2020-08-17T18:49:03.943" UserId="7171" Text="I asked [a question Literature SE][1] a few days ago, trying to make sense of some of the references in an English poem by William Drummond of Hawthornden. One portion of the poem describes **Venus/Aphrodite gathering 'those fair flowers/Which of her blood were born'**. Some Googling (for example, [this website][2]) suggested that these 'fair flowers' are **red roses**: apparently, there is an ancient myth in which **Venus pricks herself on a white rose bush and bleeds on the petals**, thus creating the red rose.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;None of the above Googling pointed me to an ancient source. The website I mentioned, for example, states that the myth is an episode in the narrative of Venus and Adonis, but neither Shakespeare's *Venus and Adonis*, nor the section on Book X of Ovid's *Metamorphoses* which was Shakespeare's primary literary inspiration, make any mention of it. **Is there an ancient source for this myth?** Or is it a Renaissance invention?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://literature.stackexchange.com/questions/15137/what-does-it-mean-for-venus-to-read-my-case-in-drummond-of-hawthorndens-madri&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.charentonmacerations.com/2014/10/29/mythological-rose/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23029" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7584" RevisionGUID="e103d3c1-8a42-4b54-b65a-7dd697130ec5" CreationDate="2020-08-17T18:49:03.943" UserId="7171" Text="An ancient source for the myth of Venus' creation of red roses?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23030" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7584" RevisionGUID="e103d3c1-8a42-4b54-b65a-7dd697130ec5" CreationDate="2020-08-17T18:49:03.943" UserId="7171" Text="|greek|roman|origins|aphrodite|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23033" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7585" RevisionGUID="e7adff0a-9ced-468b-8b52-64bcc540bd83" CreationDate="2020-08-18T08:37:28.987" UserId="5511" Text="According to [Anacreon][1], white roses appeared in the foam of the sea around the shell of Aphrodite's birth. The birth account of Aphrodite is first recorded in Hesod's [Theogony][2]. We all know this account from classic paintings, but what is perhaps less known is that Aphrodite was not the only one born from the casting of Ouranos' genitals in the sea by his son, and Aphrodite is not her only name:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then the son from his ambush stretched forth his left hand and in his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; right took the great long sickle with jagged teeth, and swiftly lopped&#xD;&#xA;&gt; off his own father's members and cast them away to fall behind him.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And not vainly did they fall from his hand; for all the bloody drops&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that gushed forth Earth received, and as the seasons moved round she&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bare the strong **Erinyes** and the **great Giants** with gleaming armour,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; holding long spears in their hands and the **Nymphs** whom they call&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Meliae** all over the boundless earth. And so soon as he had cut off&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the members with flint and cast them from the land into the surging&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sea, they were swept away over the main a long time: and a white foam&#xD;&#xA;&gt; spread around them from the immortal flesh, and in it there grew a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; maiden. First she drew near holy **Cythera**, and from there, afterwards,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; she came to sea-girt **Cyprus**, and came forth an awful and lovely&#xD;&#xA;&gt; goddess, and grass grew up about her beneath her shapely feet. Her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gods and men call **Aphrodite**, and the foam-born goddess and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rich-crowned **Cytherea**, because she grew amid the foam, and Cytherea&#xD;&#xA;&gt; because she reached Cythera, and **Cyprogenes** because she was born in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; billowy Cyprus, and **Philommedes** because sprang from the members.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And with her went **Eros**, and comely **Desire** followed her at her birth at&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the first and as she went into the assembly of the gods. This honour&#xD;&#xA;&gt; she has from the beginning, and this is the portion allotted to her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; amongst men and undying gods, -- the whisperings of maidens and smiles&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and deceits with sweet delight and love and graciousness. *- Hesod -Theogones*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some of the Nymphs in these verses are also associated with flowers, and roses in particular. Aphrodite's symbols have always included the sea, conch shells, and roses. The rose and myrtle flowers were both sacred to Aphrodite.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As to the &quot;blood and roses&quot; story you mention, this myth of Aphrodite and Adonis is probably derived from the ancient Sumerian legend of [Inanna][3] and [Dumuzid][4]. The Greek name *Ἄδωνις* (Adōnis) is derived from the Canaanite word *ʼadōn*, meaning &quot;lord&quot;. There are two principle versions of this story, and Ovid's work does not mention the version with the roses and the blood. I could only find a link to a study that should contain this text, but not the original:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cyrino, Monica S. (2010), Aphrodite, Gods and Heroes of the Ancient&#xD;&#xA;&gt; World, New York City, New York and London, England: Routledge, ISBN&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 978-0-415-77523-6&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Middle Ages, this story was transformed into a tale of platonic love, as can be found in [Le Roman de la Rose (The novel of the Rose)][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anacreon&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theogony&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inanna&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumuzid&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_de_la_Rose" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23034" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7585" RevisionGUID="88fdbf72-3476-4456-aaca-a44d21dfd744" CreationDate="2020-08-18T08:51:17.917" UserId="5511" Comment="edited body" Text="According to [Anacreon][1], white roses appeared in the foam of the sea around the shell of Aphrodite's birth. The birth account of Aphrodite is first recorded in Hesod's [Theogony][2]. We all know this account from classic paintings, but what is perhaps less known is that Aphrodite was not the only one born from the casting of Ouranos' genitals in the sea by his son, and Aphrodite is not her only name:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then the son from his ambush stretched forth his left hand and in his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; right took the great long sickle with jagged teeth, and swiftly lopped&#xD;&#xA;&gt; off his own father's members and cast them away to fall behind him.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And not vainly did they fall from his hand; for all the bloody drops&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that gushed forth Earth received, and as the seasons moved round she&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bare the strong **Erinyes** and the **great Giants** with gleaming armour,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; holding long spears in their hands and the **Nymphs** whom they call&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Meliae** all over the boundless earth. And so soon as he had cut off&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the members with flint and cast them from the land into the surging&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sea, they were swept away over the main a long time: and a white foam&#xD;&#xA;&gt; spread around them from the immortal flesh, and in it there grew a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; maiden. First she drew near holy **Cythera**, and from there, afterwards,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; she came to sea-girt **Cyprus**, and came forth an awful and lovely&#xD;&#xA;&gt; goddess, and grass grew up about her beneath her shapely feet. Her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gods and men call **Aphrodite**, and the foam-born goddess and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rich-crowned **Cytherea**, because she grew amid the foam, and Cytherea&#xD;&#xA;&gt; because she reached Cythera, and **Cyprogenes** because she was born in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; billowy Cyprus, and **Philommedes** because sprang from the members.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And with her went **Eros**, and comely **Desire** followed her at her birth at&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the first and as she went into the assembly of the gods. This honour&#xD;&#xA;&gt; she has from the beginning, and this is the portion allotted to her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; amongst men and undying gods, -- the whisperings of maidens and smiles&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and deceits with sweet delight and love and graciousness. *- Hesod -Theogones*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some of the Nymphs in these verses are also associated with flowers, and roses in particular. Aphrodite's symbols have always included the sea, conch shells, and roses. The rose and myrtle flowers were both sacred to Aphrodite.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As to the &quot;blood and roses&quot; story you mention, this myth of Aphrodite and Adonis is probably derived from the ancient Sumerian legend of [Inanna][3] and [Dumuzid][4]. The Greek name *Ἄδωνις* (Adōnis) is derived from the Canaanite word *ʼadōn*, meaning &quot;lord&quot;. There are two principle versions of this story, and Ovid's work does not mention the version with the roses and the blood. I could only find a link to a study that should contain this text, but not the original:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cyrino, Monica S. (2010), Aphrodite, Gods and Heroes of the Ancient&#xD;&#xA;&gt; World, New York City, New York and London, England: Routledge, ISBN&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 978-0-415-77523-6&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Middle Ages, this story was transformed into a tale of romantic love, as can be found in [Le Roman de la Rose (The novel of the Rose)][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anacreon&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theogony&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inanna&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumuzid&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_de_la_Rose" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23035" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7586" RevisionGUID="0742aa53-a5ed-48fd-bc34-d3fe1e8930de" CreationDate="2020-08-18T23:58:47.257" UserId="2682" Text="Mediaeval compilations referencing older, potentially ancient works do mention the story. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is narrated in Ch. II of the &quot;Διηγηματα&quot; section of the &quot;Appendix: *Narrationum*,&quot; on p. 359 of Anton Westermann's 1843 book *Mythographoi: Scriptores poeticae historiae graeci*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cited as the source here is the (c. 4th century AD) *Progymnasmata* 2, by Aphthonius of Antioch, as well as a commentary on the same work by John Doxopatres (11th century AD).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story also occurs in the *Geoponika* [*Geoponica*], &quot;Agricultural Pursuits,&quot; which Wikipedia describes as &quot;a twenty-book collection of agricultural lore, compiled during the 10th century in Constantinople for the Byzantine emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the relevant passage thereof, i.e. Book 11, Chapter 17, entitled &quot;Concerning the Rose&quot;,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Let him that admires the beauty of the rose, reflect on the wound of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aphrodite, they say; for the goddess indeed loved Adonis, and Ares on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the other hand loved her: but Ares in a fit of jealousy killed Adonis,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thinking that the death of Adonis would put an end to her affection&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for him; but the goddess, having understood what had been done,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hastened to be revenged; and throwing herself in a hurry on the rose,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; when without her sandals, she was wounded by the thorns of the rose in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the sole of her foot; and the rose, which was before white, from the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; blood of Aphrodite, changed into the colour in which it is now seen,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and it became red and sweet-scented. But others say that, when the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gods were feasting above, and there stood a great quantity of nectar,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eros led the dance, and with his wing struck the bottom of the bowl&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and overturned it, and that the nectar poured on the ground made the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rose of a red colour.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On p. 226 (Footnote 3) of Vol. 1 of his 1914 book *The Golden Bough*, James George Frazer cites John Tzetzes' commentary on Lycophron's *Alexandra* 831 as a source for the myth, but I have struggled to find any explicit mention of such a thing therein, beyond a reference to the Muses weeping for Adonis upon his death. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Alexandra* is an extremely cryptic poem narrated essentially in riddles, though, so it might just be that I don't get it, even with Tzetzes' commentary. If Lycophron did indeed allude to the story in *Alexandra*, this would be an undoubtedly ancient primary source for it, several centuries older than the aforementioned compilations.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23036" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7586" RevisionGUID="069ce980-e24f-4f87-8746-795374bf219d" CreationDate="2020-08-19T00:06:47.573" UserId="2682" Comment="added info" Text="Mediaeval compilations referencing older, potentially ancient works do mention the story. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is narrated in Ch. II of the &quot;Διηγηματα&quot; section of the &quot;Appendix: *Narrationum*,&quot; on p. 359 of Anton Westermann's 1843 book *Mythographoi: Scriptores poeticae historiae graeci*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cited as the source here is the (c. 4th century AD) *Progymnasmata* 2, by Aphthonius of Antioch, as well as a commentary on the same work by John Doxopatres (11th century AD).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story also occurs in the *Geoponika* [*Geoponica*], &quot;Agricultural Pursuits,&quot; which Wikipedia describes as &quot;a twenty-book collection of agricultural lore, compiled during the 10th century in Constantinople for the Byzantine emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the relevant passage thereof, i.e. Book 11, Chapter 17, entitled &quot;Concerning the Rose&quot;,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Let him that admires the beauty of the rose, reflect on the wound of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aphrodite, they say; for the goddess indeed loved Adonis, and Ares on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the other hand loved her: but Ares in a fit of jealousy killed Adonis,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thinking that the death of Adonis would put an end to her affection&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for him; but the goddess, having understood what had been done,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hastened to be revenged; and throwing herself in a hurry on the rose,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; when without her sandals, she was wounded by the thorns of the rose in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the sole of her foot; and the rose, which was before white, from the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; blood of Aphrodite, changed into the colour in which it is now seen,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and it became red and sweet-scented. But others say that, when the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gods were feasting above, and there stood a great quantity of nectar,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eros led the dance, and with his wing struck the bottom of the bowl&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and overturned it, and that the nectar poured on the ground made the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rose of a red colour.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On p. 226 (Footnote 3) of Vol. 1 of his 1914 book *The Golden Bough*, James George Frazer cites John Tzetzes' commentary on Lycophron's *Alexandra* 831 as a source for the myth, but I have struggled to find any explicit mention of such a thing therein, beyond a reference to the Muses weeping for Adonis upon his death. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Alexandra* is an extremely cryptic poem narrated essentially in riddles, though, so it might just be that I don't get it, even with Tzetzes' commentary. If Lycophron did indeed allude to the story in *Alexandra*, this would be an undoubtedly ancient primary source for it, several centuries older than the aforementioned compilations.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also ancient but sometime later than Lycophron, Bion's *Epitaph of Adonis* tells a slightly different version of the story, in which Aphrodite cuts herself on thorns as she rushes through the woods on her way to the fallen Adonis, but in the end it is Adonis' blood which turns into roses while Aphrodite sheds a tear for each drop of his blood, while her tears produce anemones.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23037" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6492" RevisionGUID="0b56e07a-2698-4461-a2e0-96b679be2d8c" CreationDate="2020-08-19T03:02:58.863" UserId="7117" Comment="added 43 characters in body" Text="Castor and Pollux, Helen and Clytemnestra are considered twins, and may or may not have hatched from eggs laid by Nemesis after being impregnated by her father Zeus as swans https://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Nemesis.html . I am having a hard time finding references for other gods or god-like beings that laid eggs, that were then hatched by humans (in this case, Leda), and (preferably) gave rise to twins. Does anyone know of other global mythologies that closely match this story? I'm flexible on comparisons, but the more obscure and less Greco-Roman, the better. Ideally they would tie together twins, gods as birds, and children raised by humans. I am new to this sight, so if I'm missing any protocols, please let me know and I will modify my question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;PS Dragons and dragon-like beings can substitute for birds since they are winged and lay eggs." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23038" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="7562" RevisionGUID="1e729125-69b1-4536-851d-9031a4f678ba" CreationDate="2020-08-19T05:05:45.503" UserId="-1" Comment="106" />
  <row Id="23039" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7586" RevisionGUID="8e0e030f-443f-4254-9c16-c5a7430e1b29" CreationDate="2020-08-19T05:54:37.977" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; tweaked some details" Text="Mediaeval compilations referencing older, potentially ancient works do mention the story. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is narrated in Ch. II of the &quot;Διηγηματα&quot; section of the &quot;Appendix: *Narrationum*,&quot; on p. 359 of Anton Westermann's 1843 book *Mythographoi: Scriptores poeticae historiae graeci*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cited as the source here is the *Progymnasmata* 2, by Aphthonius of Antioch (c. 4th century AD), as well as a commentary on the same work by John Doxopatres (11th century AD).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story also occurs in the *Geoponika* [*Geoponica*], &quot;Agricultural Pursuits,&quot; which Wikipedia describes as &quot;a twenty-book collection of agricultural lore, compiled during the 10th century in Constantinople for the Byzantine emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the relevant passage thereof, i.e. Book 11, Chapter 17, entitled &quot;Concerning the Rose&quot;,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Let him that admires the beauty of the rose, reflect on the wound of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aphrodite, they say; for the goddess indeed loved Adonis, and Ares on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the other hand loved her: but Ares in a fit of jealousy killed Adonis,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thinking that the death of Adonis would put an end to her affection&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for him; but the goddess, having understood what had been done,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hastened to be revenged; and throwing herself in a hurry on the rose,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; when without her sandals, she was wounded by the thorns of the rose in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the sole of her foot; and the rose, which was before white, from the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; blood of Aphrodite, changed into the colour in which it is now seen,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and it became red and sweet-scented. But others say that, when the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gods were feasting above, and there stood a great quantity of nectar,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eros led the dance, and with his wing struck the bottom of the bowl&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and overturned it, and that the nectar poured on the ground made the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rose of a red colour.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On p. 226 (Footnote 3) of Vol. 1 of his 1914 book *The Golden Bough*, James George Frazer cites John Tzetzes' commentary on Lycophron's *Alexandra* 831 as a source for the myth, but I have struggled to find any explicit mention of such a thing therein, beyond a reference to the Muses weeping for Adonis upon his death. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Alexandra* is an extremely cryptic poem narrated essentially in riddles, though, so it might just be that I don't get it, even with Tzetzes' commentary. If Lycophron did indeed allude to the story in *Alexandra*, this would be an undoubtedly ancient primary source for it, several centuries older than the aforementioned compilations.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also ancient but sometime later than Lycophron, Bion's *Epitaph of Adonis* (commonly referred to in English also as *Lament for Adonis*) tells a slightly different version of the story, in which Aphrodite cuts herself on thorns as she rushes through the woods on her way to the fallen Adonis, but in the end it is Adonis' blood which turns into roses. Aphrodite in turn sheds a tear for each drop of his blood, and these tears turn into windflowers (anemones).&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23040" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7586" RevisionGUID="849defae-2912-4545-a390-9bc7ed1da087" CreationDate="2020-08-19T12:14:02.127" UserId="5726" Comment="added some sourcelinks to pdf's, if you do not agree feel free to rollback ;)" Text="Mediaeval compilations referencing older, potentially ancient works do mention the story. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is narrated in Ch. II of the &quot;Διηγηματα&quot; section of the &quot;Appendix: *Narrationum*,&quot; on p. 359 of Anton Westermann's 1843 book *Mythographoi: [Scriptores poeticae historiae graeci][1]*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cited as the source here is the *Progymnasmata* 2, by Aphthonius of Antioch (c. 4th century AD), as well as a commentary on the same work by John Doxopatres (11th century AD).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story also occurs in the *Geoponika* [*Geoponica*], &quot;Agricultural Pursuits,&quot; which Wikipedia describes as &quot;a twenty-book collection of agricultural lore, compiled during the 10th century in Constantinople for the Byzantine emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the relevant passage thereof, i.e. Book 11, Chapter 17, entitled &quot;Concerning the Rose&quot;,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Let him that admires the beauty of the rose, reflect on the wound of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aphrodite, they say; for the goddess indeed loved Adonis, and Ares on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the other hand loved her: but Ares in a fit of jealousy killed Adonis,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thinking that the death of Adonis would put an end to her affection&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for him; but the goddess, having understood what had been done,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hastened to be revenged; and throwing herself in a hurry on the rose,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; when without her sandals, she was wounded by the thorns of the rose in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the sole of her foot; and the rose, which was before white, from the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; blood of Aphrodite, changed into the colour in which it is now seen,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and it became red and sweet-scented. But others say that, when the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gods were feasting above, and there stood a great quantity of nectar,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eros led the dance, and with his wing struck the bottom of the bowl&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and overturned it, and that the nectar poured on the ground made the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rose of a red colour.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On p. 226 (Footnote 3) of Vol. 1 of his 1914 book *[The Golden Bough][2]*, James George Frazer cites John Tzetzes' commentary on Lycophron's *Alexandra* 831 as a source for the myth, but I have struggled to find any explicit mention of such a thing therein, beyond a reference to the Muses weeping for Adonis upon his death. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Alexandra* is an extremely cryptic poem narrated essentially in riddles, though, so it might just be that I don't get it, even with Tzetzes' commentary. If Lycophron did indeed allude to the story in *Alexandra*, this would be an undoubtedly ancient primary source for it, several centuries older than the aforementioned compilations.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also ancient but sometime later than Lycophron, Bion's *[Epitaph of Adonis][3]* (commonly referred to in English also as *Lament for Adonis*) tells a slightly different version of the story, in which Aphrodite cuts herself on thorns as she rushes through the woods on her way to the fallen Adonis, but in the end it is Adonis' blood which turns into roses. Aphrodite in turn sheds a tear for each drop of his blood, and these tears turn into windflowers (anemones).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.nl/books?id=3WQBAAAAMAAJ&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;source=gbs_ge_summary_r&amp;cad=0#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.templeofearth.com/books/goldenbough.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://books.google.nl/books?id=AuWBFdvooJAC&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;source=gbs_ge_summary_r&amp;cad=0#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23041" PostHistoryTypeId="36" PostId="7587" RevisionGUID="aa4508f3-6277-4d25-b0da-5b5f9e9f52a3" CreationDate="2020-08-19T15:10:08.527" UserId="-1" Comment="from https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/60779/do-the-myths-of-malayalam-onam-egyptian-osiris-myth-and-vietnamese-tet-show-cul" />
  <row Id="23042" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7587" RevisionGUID="403b73ce-c819-4d53-83cf-63d341e2134b" CreationDate="2020-08-18T12:21:30.613" UserDisplayName="Jayadevan Vijayan" Text="Were there any contacts between the ancient Egyptian, Keralan (South Indian), and Vietnamese civilizations that may have been significant enough for these people to have borrowed elements from each other's mythos?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Kerala (Malayalam), the most important festival is Onam. King Maveli (or Mahabali) made Kerala better than heaven, and was defeated through fraudulent means. He will come back once an year. He is in netherworld now. While he ruled, the everybody where honest and equals. A god (Vamanan) did the deception to defeat the king.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Egypt, the [myth][1] of Osiris is [similar][2]. The king visits his subjects yearly. Osiris is a likely cognate of Asuran, the tribe of Maveli.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Vietnam, the story is reversed in the sense that the god (Buddha) uses dishonest means (using a robe which changes its surface area) to get rid of a bad supernatural being. But otherwise, the story is [similar][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I did find an article on Tet that says:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The story of Vishnu and Mahabali may have traveled to Vietnam when&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hinduism was widely prevalent in the country. There are quite a few&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ancient Hindu temple complexes in the Southeast Asian country. As is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the case in nearby Thailand, Vietnamese believe that Buddha was an&#xD;&#xA;&gt; avatar of Rama (and hence an avatar of Vishnu). The story of Mahabali&#xD;&#xA;&gt; probably underwent changes when most of the country adopted Buddhism.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://learnodo-newtonic.com/osiris-facts&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://mywordsnthoughts.com/myworld/all-about-kerala/is-there-any-festival-similar-to-onam-celebrated-in-other-parts-of-the-world/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.onmanorama.com/news/columns/keralaspora/2019/01/22/vietnam-new-year-onam-connection.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23043" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7587" RevisionGUID="403b73ce-c819-4d53-83cf-63d341e2134b" CreationDate="2020-08-18T12:21:30.613" UserDisplayName="Jayadevan Vijayan" Text="Do the myths of Malayalam Onam, Egyptian Osiris Myth and Vietnamese Tet show cultural contacts?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23044" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7587" RevisionGUID="403b73ce-c819-4d53-83cf-63d341e2134b" CreationDate="2020-08-18T12:21:30.613" UserDisplayName="Jayadevan Vijayan" Text="|india|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23047" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7562" RevisionGUID="8e0b6ab6-8f17-456a-8fda-acaf0de5448d" CreationDate="2020-08-20T09:48:20.047" UserId="108" Comment="added 467 characters in body" Text="Which ancient cults would cut out the hearts of live animals and offer them as sacrifices? The Mishnah (*Avodah Zarah* 2:3) mentions a concept called עורות לבובין which Maimonides and other commentators explain refers to the pagan practice of making an incision in live animals and removing their hearts for ritual purposes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From commentator @SeverusSnape: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **English Explanation of Mishnah Avodah Zarah 2:3:2**&#xD;&#xA;*The following things belonging to [...] are forbidden [...] Hadrianic earthenware, **`skins pierced at the animal’s heart.`** [...] If one sees a cut in an animal skin at the place of the heart, it is a sign that the animal was used for idol worship and it is forbidden* [Reference](https://www.sefaria.org/Mishnah_Avodah_Zarah.2.3?with=Modern%20Commentary&amp;lang=bi)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; Do we have any documentation as to which ancient cults were engaged in this practice?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23048" PostHistoryTypeId="36" PostId="7588" RevisionGUID="512116f8-60d0-4b0d-af02-742e5cac1b0e" CreationDate="2020-08-20T11:24:10.990" UserId="-1" Comment="from https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/60801/what-is-the-origin-of-a-tale-of-hummingbird-extinguishing-a-fire-in-mesoamerica" />
  <row Id="23049" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7588" RevisionGUID="4de1632b-f0d1-4ff1-b077-2093f3a3b884" CreationDate="2020-08-20T08:38:29.013" UserDisplayName="Seb" Text="There's a so-called story about a hummingbird trying to extinguish a forest fire, supposed to originate from South-America, of which I've been trying to find the origin - in vain.  &#xD;&#xA;Someone knows perhaps this story and where it comes from ?  &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23050" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7588" RevisionGUID="4de1632b-f0d1-4ff1-b077-2093f3a3b884" CreationDate="2020-08-20T08:38:29.013" UserDisplayName="Seb" Text="What is the origin of a tale of hummingbird extinguishing a fire in Mesoamerica or South-America?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23051" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7588" RevisionGUID="4de1632b-f0d1-4ff1-b077-2093f3a3b884" CreationDate="2020-08-20T08:38:29.013" UserDisplayName="Seb" Text="|untagged|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23053" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="7588" RevisionGUID="07c5da92-97cb-4b50-9a23-b9a916ce4b3e" CreationDate="2020-08-20T21:35:23.880" UserId="5726" Comment="added applicable tags" Text="|myth-identification|animals|mesoamerica|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23056" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7587" RevisionGUID="ed8e537a-de92-40b6-ba73-0e45002e2e35" CreationDate="2020-08-21T14:35:30.590" UserId="7181" Comment="Removed typo and added tags" Text="Were there any contacts between the ancient Egyptian, Keralan (South Indian), and Vietnamese civilizations that may have been significant enough for these people to have borrowed elements from each other's mythos?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Kerala (Malayalam), the most important festival is Onam. King Maveli (or Mahabali) made Kerala better than heaven, and was defeated through fraudulent means. He will come back once an year. He is in netherworld now. While he ruled, everybody where honest, happy and equals. A god (Vamanan) did the deception to defeat the king.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Egypt, the [myth][1] of Osiris is [similar][2]. The king visits his subjects yearly. Osiris is a likely cognate of Asuran, the tribe of Maveli.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Vietnam, the story is reversed in the sense that the god (Buddha) uses dishonest means (using a robe which changes its surface area) to get rid of a bad supernatural being. But otherwise, the story is [similar][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I did find an article on Tet that says:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The story of Vishnu and Mahabali may have traveled to Vietnam when&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hinduism was widely prevalent in the country. There are quite a few&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ancient Hindu temple complexes in the Southeast Asian country. As is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the case in nearby Thailand, Vietnamese believe that Buddha was an&#xD;&#xA;&gt; avatar of Rama (and hence an avatar of Vishnu). The story of Mahabali&#xD;&#xA;&gt; probably underwent changes when most of the country adopted Buddhism.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://learnodo-newtonic.com/osiris-facts&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://mywordsnthoughts.com/myworld/all-about-kerala/is-there-any-festival-similar-to-onam-celebrated-in-other-parts-of-the-world/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.onmanorama.com/news/columns/keralaspora/2019/01/22/vietnam-new-year-onam-connection.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23057" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="7587" RevisionGUID="ed8e537a-de92-40b6-ba73-0e45002e2e35" CreationDate="2020-08-21T14:35:30.590" UserId="7181" Comment="Removed typo and added tags" Text="|egyptian|india|buddhist|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23058" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7589" RevisionGUID="7cef758e-eda1-4fbf-b1be-fc2c967beec9" CreationDate="2020-08-21T21:37:58.773" UserId="5511" Text="That's a definite &quot;no&quot; as far as an Egyptian connection is concerned. A much more plausible explanation is that in creating myths, humans follow a limited number of patterns, regardless of their cultural background. This field of study is called [Comparative Mythology][1]. This has uncovered a number of parallels, or archetypes, between the myths of different cultures, including some very widespread recurring themes and plot elements, like:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Creation of mankind from clay&#xD;&#xA; - Acquisition of fire for the benefit of humanity&#xD;&#xA; - Flood myths&#xD;&#xA; - Dying/Mortal gods &amp; resurrection&#xD;&#xA; - Creative sacrifice&#xD;&#xA; - Axis mundi&#xD;&#xA; - Titanomachy&#xD;&#xA; - Giants&#xD;&#xA; - Dragons and serpents&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As to your specific example regarding an &quot;Egyptian connection&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - there is an almost 2000 year span between the origin of the Osirian myths and Buddhism. &#xD;&#xA; - Tết corresponds to the lunar new year. The Egyptians used a lunisolar calendar.&#xD;&#xA; - Osiris is most definitely not a cognate of Asuran, the tribe of Maveli. The origins of the Osirian myths (24th century BCE) are well documented and entirely situated in pre-dynastic Egypt. Mahabali, also known as Bali or Māveli originates in Hindu texts like *Shatapatha Brahmana (8th to 6th centuries BCE), Ramayana (7th to 4th centuries BCE), Mahabharata (9th and 8th centuries BCE)* and *Puranas ( 3rd- and 10th-century CE)*. &#xD;&#xA; - The mainstream Osirian myths actually do not mention Osiris returning once a year: after his murder by Seth and his subsequent resurrection by Isis, he rules the underworld and his son Horus rules the world above.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The influence of Hindu mythology on Buddhism on the other hand is abundantly documented in Eastern philology. Hinduism predates Buddhism by two millennia and is the substrate from which Buddhism emerged. Buddha himself was born a Hindu.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23060" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="7569" RevisionGUID="b22f87c8-f466-4edc-9501-75af8af03c48" CreationDate="2020-08-22T20:38:54.253" UserId="1241" Comment="edited tags" Text="|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23061" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1831" RevisionGUID="b06d6c19-c59f-4ac4-a4de-af86f865ed8a" CreationDate="2020-08-22T21:02:55.217" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23062" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5512" RevisionGUID="87f62439-24e6-4be6-a41d-3edd656857a5" CreationDate="2020-08-23T08:01:05.117" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23063" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1959" RevisionGUID="bb2b5ec3-454e-48f4-9ada-07e7db3aae49" CreationDate="2020-08-23T12:00:35.067" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23064" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7590" RevisionGUID="a5c7436d-a1c2-461b-8950-240039ddfd01" CreationDate="2020-08-23T16:11:45.903" UserId="1317" Text="As much as we might want it to be, as it stands, there is no evidence that this is a traditional story from any culture, Mesoamerican or otherwise. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This appears to be the work of author [Michael Nicoll Yahgulanaas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Nicoll_Yahgulanaas), who is a member of the Haida people of the Pacific Northwest.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his book _[Flight of the Hummingbird](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1963542.Flight_of_the_Hummingbird)_, ([PDF here](http://www.vidyaonline.net/dl/hummingbird.pdf)), Yahgulanaas tells a story of a great forest fire. All of the animals stand by while the fire consumes their forest, except the hummingbird, who attempts to put out the fire drop by drop.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yahgulanaas tells the story as as a modern parable in the context of saving the environment. The moral is that we all have to try what we can, no matter little that is, even when the task seems insurmountable.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yahgulanaas says the following in his book:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;This story of a small, committed bird determined to put out a forest&#xD;&#xA;fire is inspired by a parable told by the Quechuan people of present-day Ecuador.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note the words &quot;inspired by&quot;, not &quot;based on&quot; or &quot;is a&quot;. The book dorsn't contain a citation of the original story, so there's no way to gauge the extent of the inspiration.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, the book's illustrations are Yahgulanaas's own &quot;Haida Manga&quot; style, inslired by his own people's art, and the hummingbird is given the Haida name Dukdukdiya. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We can see why such a story would resonate with Yahgulanaas, because he says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In Haida stories it is often the most diminutive creature — a mouse, a frog, or even that curious being that becomes smaller the closer it approaches— that offers the critical gift or the necessary solution. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Native peoples of the Americas have many traditional stories concerning hummingbirds.  Many are compiled at [sacred-texts.com](Hummingbird site:www.sacred-texts.com). Also [native-languahes.org](&#xD;&#xA;http://www.native-languages.org/legends-hummingbird.htm).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Western Shoshone tell a story](https://www.sacred-texts.com/nam/ca/wsm/wsm03.htm) of the hummingbird acting as a lookout while Coyote steals fire to give to the people. &quot;[The First Hummingbird](https://www.sacred-texts.com/etc/bnm/bnm03.htm)&quot; tells the story of the hummingbird being born from fire. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Aztec war god [Huitzilopochtli](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huitzilopochtli) is associated with the hummingbird, and his name comes from the Nahuatl word _huitzilin_, meaning &quot;hummingbird&quot;. In some versions of the Aztec origin story, Huitzilopochtli led the wandering Mexica people to Tenochtitlan, and this is often used as a parable for perseverance. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This hummingbird site](http://www.rubythroat.org/CultureIndianSummary01.html) contains the following, which at least involves a hummingbird putting out a fire:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One Pueblo story tells of a demon who is blinded after losing a bet with the sun. In anger he spews out hot lava. The earth catches fire. A hummingbird then saves the beautiful land of people and animals by gathering clouds from the four directions. Hummingbird uses rain from these clouds to put out the flames. This legend says the bright colors on a hummingbird's throat came after he fled through the rainbow in search of rain clouds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice that the hummingbird succeeds in putting out the fire, marshalling resources that would be out of reach for the tiny bird in the book.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23065" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7590" RevisionGUID="ebec7da2-cc69-482b-ac0e-e3809c94af96" CreationDate="2020-08-23T16:18:10.413" UserId="1317" Comment="edited body" Text="As much as we might want it to be, as it stands, there is no evidence that this is a traditional story from any culture, Mesoamerican or otherwise. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This appears to be the work of author [Michael Nicoll Yahgulanaas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Nicoll_Yahgulanaas), who is a member of the Haida people of the Pacific Northwest.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his book _[Flight of the Hummingbird](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1963542.Flight_of_the_Hummingbird)_, ([PDF here](http://www.vidyaonline.net/dl/hummingbird.pdf)), Yahgulanaas tells a story of a great forest fire. All of the animals stand by while the fire consumes their forest, except the hummingbird, who attempts to put out the fire drop by drop.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yahgulanaas tells the story as as a modern parable in the context of saving the environment. The moral is that we all have to try what we can, no matter little that is, even when the task seems insurmountable.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yahgulanaas says the following in his book:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;This story of a small, committed bird determined to put out a forest&#xD;&#xA;fire is inspired by a parable told by the Quechuan people of present-day Ecuador.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note the words &quot;inspired by&quot;, not &quot;based on&quot; or &quot;is a&quot;. The book doesn't contain a citation of the original story, so there's no way to gauge the extent of the inspiration.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, the book's illustrations are Yahgulanaas's own &quot;Haida Manga&quot; style, inspired by his own people's art, and the hummingbird is given the Haida name Dukdukdiya. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We can see why such a story would resonate with Yahgulanaas, because he says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In Haida stories it is often the most diminutive creature — a mouse, a frog, or even that curious being that becomes smaller the closer it approaches— that offers the critical gift or the necessary solution. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Native peoples of the Americas have many traditional stories concerning hummingbirds.  Many are compiled at [sacred-texts.com](https://www.google.com/search?q=hummingbird+site%3Asacred-texts.com). Also [native-languages.org](&#xD;&#xA;http://www.native-languages.org/legends-hummingbird.htm).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Western Shoshone tell a story](https://www.sacred-texts.com/nam/ca/wsm/wsm03.htm) of the hummingbird acting as a lookout while Coyote steals fire to give to the people. &quot;[The First Hummingbird](https://www.sacred-texts.com/etc/bnm/bnm03.htm)&quot; tells the story of the hummingbird being born from fire. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Aztec war god [Huitzilopochtli](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huitzilopochtli) is associated with the hummingbird, and his name comes from the Nahuatl word _huitzilin_, meaning &quot;hummingbird&quot;. In some versions of the Aztec origin story, Huitzilopochtli led the wandering Mexica people to Tenochtitlan, and this is often used as a parable for perseverance. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This hummingbird site](http://www.rubythroat.org/CultureIndianSummary01.html) contains the following, which at least involves a hummingbird putting out a fire:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One Pueblo story tells of a demon who is blinded after losing a bet with the sun. In anger he spews out hot lava. The earth catches fire. A hummingbird then saves the beautiful land of people and animals by gathering clouds from the four directions. Hummingbird uses rain from these clouds to put out the flames. This legend says the bright colors on a hummingbird's throat came after he fled through the rainbow in search of rain clouds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice that the hummingbird succeeds in putting out the fire, marshalling resources that would be out of reach for the tiny bird in the book.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23066" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7587" RevisionGUID="02754df2-a137-4cae-9282-1fc5f4606518" CreationDate="2020-08-23T18:19:11.183" UserId="6920" Comment="grammar and spelling" Text="Were there any contacts between the ancient Egyptian, Keralan (South Indian), and Vietnamese civilizations that may have been significant enough for these people to have borrowed elements from each other's mythos?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Kerala (Malayalam), the most important festival is Onam. King Maveli (or Mahabali) made Kerala better than heaven, and was defeated through fraudulent means. He will come back once an year. He is in netherworld now. While he ruled, everybody was honest, happy and equal. A god (Vamanan) did the deception to defeat the king.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Egypt, the [myth][1] of Osiris is [similar][2]. The king visits his subjects yearly. Osiris is a likely cognate of Asuran, the tribe of Maveli.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Vietnam, the story is reversed in the sense that the god (Buddha) uses dishonest means (using a robe which changes its surface area) to get rid of a bad supernatural being. But otherwise, the story is [similar][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I did find an article on Tet that says:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The story of Vishnu and Mahabali may have traveled to Vietnam when&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hinduism was widely prevalent in the country. There are quite a few&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ancient Hindu temple complexes in the Southeast Asian country. As is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the case in nearby Thailand, Vietnamese believe that Buddha was an&#xD;&#xA;&gt; avatar of Rama (and hence an avatar of Vishnu). The story of Mahabali&#xD;&#xA;&gt; probably underwent changes when most of the country adopted Buddhism.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://learnodo-newtonic.com/osiris-facts&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://mywordsnthoughts.com/myworld/all-about-kerala/is-there-any-festival-similar-to-onam-celebrated-in-other-parts-of-the-world/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.onmanorama.com/news/columns/keralaspora/2019/01/22/vietnam-new-year-onam-connection.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23067" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="7587" RevisionGUID="02754df2-a137-4cae-9282-1fc5f4606518" CreationDate="2020-08-23T18:19:11.183" Comment="Proposed by 6920 approved by 2682, 5726 edit id of 1823" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23068" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7590" RevisionGUID="90bbec51-51f6-4894-85f1-e99fb527ab3d" CreationDate="2020-08-23T19:19:05.343" UserId="1317" Comment="added 46 characters in body" Text="As much as we might want it to be, as it stands, there is no evidence that this is a traditional story from any culture, Mesoamerican or otherwise. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This appears to be the work of author [Michael Nicoll Yahgulanaas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Nicoll_Yahgulanaas), who is a member of the [Haida](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haida_people) people of the Pacific Northwest.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his book _[Flight of the Hummingbird](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1963542.Flight_of_the_Hummingbird)_, ([PDF here](http://www.vidyaonline.net/dl/hummingbird.pdf)), Yahgulanaas tells a story of a great forest fire. All of the animals stand by while the fire consumes their forest, except the hummingbird, who attempts to put out the fire drop by drop.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yahgulanaas tells the story as as a modern parable in the context of saving the environment. The moral is that we all have to try what we can, no matter little that is, even when the task seems insurmountable.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yahgulanaas says the following in his book:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;This story of a small, committed bird determined to put out a forest&#xD;&#xA;fire is inspired by a parable told by the Quechuan people of present-day Ecuador.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note the words &quot;inspired by&quot;, not &quot;based on&quot; or &quot;is a&quot;. The book doesn't contain a citation of the original story, so there's no way to gauge the extent of the inspiration.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, the book's illustrations are Yahgulanaas's own &quot;Haida Manga&quot; style, inspired by his own people's art, and the hummingbird is given the Haida name Dukdukdiya. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We can see why such a story would resonate with Yahgulanaas, because he says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In Haida stories it is often the most diminutive creature — a mouse, a frog, or even that curious being that becomes smaller the closer it approaches— that offers the critical gift or the necessary solution. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Native peoples of the Americas have many traditional stories concerning hummingbirds.  Many are compiled at [sacred-texts.com](https://www.google.com/search?q=hummingbird+site%3Asacred-texts.com). Also [native-languages.org](&#xD;&#xA;http://www.native-languages.org/legends-hummingbird.htm).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Western Shoshone tell a story](https://www.sacred-texts.com/nam/ca/wsm/wsm03.htm) of the hummingbird acting as a lookout while Coyote steals fire to give to the people. &quot;[The First Hummingbird](https://www.sacred-texts.com/etc/bnm/bnm03.htm)&quot; tells the story of the hummingbird being born from fire. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Aztec war god [Huitzilopochtli](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huitzilopochtli) is associated with the hummingbird, and his name comes from the Nahuatl word _huitzilin_, meaning &quot;hummingbird&quot;. In some versions of the Aztec origin story, Huitzilopochtli led the wandering Mexica people to Tenochtitlan, and this is often used as a parable for perseverance. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This hummingbird site](http://www.rubythroat.org/CultureIndianSummary01.html) contains the following, which at least involves a hummingbird putting out a fire:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One Pueblo story tells of a demon who is blinded after losing a bet with the sun. In anger he spews out hot lava. The earth catches fire. A hummingbird then saves the beautiful land of people and animals by gathering clouds from the four directions. Hummingbird uses rain from these clouds to put out the flames. This legend says the bright colors on a hummingbird's throat came after he fled through the rainbow in search of rain clouds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice that the hummingbird succeeds in putting out the fire, marshalling resources that would be out of reach for the tiny bird in the book.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23070" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7592" RevisionGUID="eeb75ec8-d36a-412b-ad83-8205b516b07d" CreationDate="2020-08-24T17:21:30.087" UserId="5726" Text="Leviticus is mentioned as a source on the scapegoat as noted by Obie 2.0.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Aaron shall offer the goat on which the lot for the LORD fell,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and make it a sin offering. 10&quot;But the goat on which the lot for the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; scapegoat fell shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make&#xD;&#xA;&gt; atonement upon it, to send it into the wilderness as the scapegoat.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Leviticus 16:10&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since Leviticus is originally the third book of the Torah looking into this gives an extra insight.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  And Aaron shall present the goat upon which the lot fell for the LORD, and offer him for a sin-offering. 10 But the goat, on which the lot fell for Azazel, shall be set alive before the LORD, to make atonement over him, to send him away for Azazel into the wilderness. &lt;sub&gt;[Leviticus Chapter 16 [וַיִּקְרָ][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &lt;img src=&quot;https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/Azazel.jpg&quot; width=&quot;200&quot; height=&quot;200&quot; /&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Azazel drawing from 1863 by Collin de Plancy][2]courtesy of Wikimedia&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here the word scapegoat is actually [Azazel][3], who is named in [chapter 68][4], and according to the Book of Enoch is a fallen angel and as written in part 10:12&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; All the earth has been corrupted by the effects of the teaching of Azazyel. To him therefore ascribe the whole crime. &lt;sub&gt;[Book of Enoch chapter 10][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [chapter 43][6] of his works, early church father [Origen Adamantius][7] mentions Azazel as a possible comparison to Satan.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mark now, whether he who charges us with having committed errors of the most impious kind, and with having wandered away from the (true meaning) of the divine enigmas, is not himself clearly in error, from not observing that in the writings of Moses, which are much older not merely than Heraclitus and Pherecydes, but even than Homer, mention is made of this wicked one, and of his having fallen from heaven. For the serpent — from whom the Ophioneus spoken of by Pherecydes is derived — having become the cause of man's expulsion from the divine Paradise, obscurely shadows forth something similar, having deceived the woman by a promise of divinity and of greater blessings; and her example is said to have been followed also by the man.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  *And, further, who else could the destroying angel mentioned in the Exodus of Moses be, than he who was the author of destruction to them that obeyed him, and did not withstand his wicked deeds, nor struggle against them? Moreover (the goat), which in the book of Leviticus is sent away (into the wilderness), and which in the Hebrew language is named Azazel, was none other than this; and it was necessary to send it away into the desert, and to treat it as an expiatory sacrifice, because on it the lot fell. For all who belong to the worse part, on account of their wickedness, being opposed to those who are God's heritage, are deserted by God.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Nay, with respect to the sons of Belial in the book of Judges, whose sons are they said to be, save his, on account of their wickedness? And besides all these instances, in the book of Job, which is older even than Moses himself, the devil is distinctly described as presenting himself before God, and asking for power against Job, that he might involve him in trials of the most painful kind; the first of which consisted in the loss of all his goods and of his children, and the second in afflicting the whole body of Job with the so-called disease of elephantiasis. I pass by what might be quoted from the Gospels regarding the devil who tempted the Saviour, that I may not appear to quote in reply to Celsus from more recent writings on this question. In the last (chapter) also of Job, in which the Lord utters to Job amid tempest and clouds what is recorded in the book which bears his name, there are not a few things referring to the serpent. I have not yet mentioned the passages in Ezekiel, where he speaks, as it were, of Pharaoh, or Nebuchadnezzar, or the prince of Tyre; or those in Isaiah, where lament is made for the king of Babylon, from which not a little might be learned concerning evil, as to the nature of its origin and generation, and as to how it derived its existence from some who had lost their wings, and who had followed him who was the first to lose his own. &lt;sub&gt;Source. Translated by Frederick Crombie. From Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4. Edited by Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe. (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1885.) Revised and edited for New Advent by Kevin Knight. &lt;http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0416.htm&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0316.htm#1&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Azazel.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azazel&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://book-ofenoch.com/chapter-68/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://book-ofenoch.com/chapter-10/&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/04166.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23071" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7592" RevisionGUID="fdefd9b6-acf3-4132-a4d5-e1a9039d9259" CreationDate="2020-08-24T20:26:06.797" UserId="5726" Comment="added 114 characters in body" Text="Leviticus is mentioned as a source on the scapegoat as noted by @[Obie 2.0.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Aaron shall offer the goat on which the lot for the LORD fell,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and make it a sin offering. 10&quot;But the goat on which the lot for the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; scapegoat fell shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make&#xD;&#xA;&gt; atonement upon it, to send it into the wilderness as the scapegoat.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Leviticus 16:10&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since Leviticus is originally the third book of the Torah looking into this gives an extra insight.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  And Aaron shall present the goat upon which the lot fell for the LORD, and offer him for a sin-offering. 10 But the goat, on which the lot fell for Azazel, shall be set alive before the LORD, to make atonement over him, to send him away for Azazel into the wilderness. &lt;sub&gt;[Leviticus Chapter 16 [וַיִּקְרָ][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &lt;img src=&quot;https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/Azazel.jpg&quot; width=&quot;200&quot; height=&quot;200&quot; /&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Azazel drawing from 1863 by Collin de Plancy][3]courtesy of Wikimedia&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here the word scapegoat is actually [Azazel][4], who is named in [chapter 68][5], and according to the Book of Enoch is a fallen angel and as written in part 10:12&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; All the earth has been corrupted by the effects of the teaching of Azazyel. To him therefore ascribe the whole crime. &lt;sub&gt;[Book of Enoch chapter 10:12][6]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [chapter 43][7] of his works, early church father [Origen Adamantius][8] mentions Azazel as a possible comparison to Satan.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mark now, whether he who charges us with having committed errors of the most impious kind, and with having wandered away from the (true meaning) of the divine enigmas, is not himself clearly in error, from not observing that in the writings of Moses, which are much older not merely than Heraclitus and Pherecydes, but even than Homer, mention is made of this wicked one, and of his having fallen from heaven. For the serpent — from whom the Ophioneus spoken of by Pherecydes is derived — having become the cause of man's expulsion from the divine Paradise, obscurely shadows forth something similar, having deceived the woman by a promise of divinity and of greater blessings; and her example is said to have been followed also by the man.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  *And, further, who else could the destroying angel mentioned in the Exodus of Moses be, than he who was the author of destruction to them that obeyed him, and did not withstand his wicked deeds, nor struggle against them? Moreover (the goat), which in the book of Leviticus is sent away (into the wilderness), and which in the Hebrew language is named Azazel, was none other than this; and it was necessary to send it away into the desert, and to treat it as an expiatory sacrifice, because on it the lot fell. For all who belong to the worse part, on account of their wickedness, being opposed to those who are God's heritage, are deserted by God.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Nay, with respect to the sons of Belial in the book of Judges, whose sons are they said to be, save his, on account of their wickedness? And besides all these instances, in the book of Job, which is older even than Moses himself, the devil is distinctly described as presenting himself before God, and asking for power against Job, that he might involve him in trials of the most painful kind; the first of which consisted in the loss of all his goods and of his children, and the second in afflicting the whole body of Job with the so-called disease of elephantiasis. I pass by what might be quoted from the Gospels regarding the devil who tempted the Saviour, that I may not appear to quote in reply to Celsus from more recent writings on this question. In the last (chapter) also of Job, in which the Lord utters to Job amid tempest and clouds what is recorded in the book which bears his name, there are not a few things referring to the serpent. I have not yet mentioned the passages in Ezekiel, where he speaks, as it were, of Pharaoh, or Nebuchadnezzar, or the prince of Tyre; or those in Isaiah, where lament is made for the king of Babylon, from which not a little might be learned concerning evil, as to the nature of its origin and generation, and as to how it derived its existence from some who had lost their wings, and who had followed him who was the first to lose his own. &lt;sub&gt;Source. Translated by Frederick Crombie. From Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4. Edited by Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe. (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1885.) Revised and edited for New Advent by Kevin Knight. &lt;http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0416.htm&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1853/why-are-goats-associated-with-satan/1860#1860&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0316.htm#1&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Azazel.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azazel&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://book-ofenoch.com/chapter-68/&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://book-ofenoch.com/chapter-10/&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/04166.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23073" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7594" RevisionGUID="7e4f370a-6e6e-4a48-a08b-f83e21415d40" CreationDate="2020-08-25T12:47:14.490" UserId="5511" Text="In the period before Judaism became monotheistic, each city had its own deity. Remnants of this can be found in the Old Testament, for example:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - El Bet' el (Gen. 31:13; 35:7)&#xD;&#xA; - El 'Olam (Gen. 21:33)&#xD;&#xA; - El Ro'i (Gen. 16:13)&#xD;&#xA; - El 'Elyon (Gen. 14:18)&#xD;&#xA; - El Saddai (Gen. 17:1)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;all later taken to be Yahweh after Moses, were all originally separate city gods worshipped by the early Hebrews.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This becomes especially clear if you look at the original text and not an English translations, as none of these translations correctly renders the original Hebrew of, for example, Genesis 31:13, which quite simply reads &quot;I am the god Bethel&quot; ('El Bet'el), who was a member of the Canaanite pantheon along with the rest of the above. The original meaning is therefore quite different from the traditional understanding: this god at Bethel (also a city name) is not the universal deity who appeared at Bethel but just one god among many – a local deity of a specific place.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23075" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="5312" RevisionGUID="f33306e1-ebd1-47cd-80ae-2f99d10255f3" CreationDate="2020-08-25T13:05:43.500" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="23078" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7596" RevisionGUID="3d83673e-2e1d-4313-ae24-e4d6ed924051" CreationDate="2020-08-26T03:17:10.383" UserId="7197" Text="Lilith from Christianity is considered the mother of demons. Supposedly, she mated with Samael and birthed a whole bunch of Demon spawn known as lilim." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23079" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7597" RevisionGUID="3379e088-dfc0-4fb4-b6a7-aadf6f29b822" CreationDate="2020-08-26T06:08:58.217" UserDisplayName="user7198" Text="In most internet sources it says Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Demeter, Ares, Hermes, Hephaestus, Aphrodite, Athena, Apollo, and Artemis are always considered to be Olympians and either Hestia or Dionysus is added to the list. Hades is not considered an Olympian as he lives in the underworld. But in 'Mythology' by Edith Hamilton it says that Hades is an Olympian. Demeter and Dionysus are not included in the list and are referred to as 'two great gods of earth'. So which list of the 12 Olympians is correct?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23080" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7597" RevisionGUID="3379e088-dfc0-4fb4-b6a7-aadf6f29b822" CreationDate="2020-08-26T06:08:58.217" UserDisplayName="user7198" Text="Which Greek gods are part of the 12 Olympians?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23081" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7597" RevisionGUID="3379e088-dfc0-4fb4-b6a7-aadf6f29b822" CreationDate="2020-08-26T06:08:58.217" UserDisplayName="user7198" Text="|greek|olympians|hades|dionysus|demeter|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23082" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7598" RevisionGUID="003e5339-649d-4669-bc9e-a156e752a481" CreationDate="2020-08-26T15:05:33.820" UserId="7199" Text="Know that the only noteworthy &quot;evil&quot; thing he did is kidnap kore/Persephone and marry her, and even then, she loved him just as he loved her. He is one of the only gods to only marry out of love. The idea of him being evil is a Christianized view of him because of his association with death. Though he was more the guardian god of the dead than the actual god of death, who was Thanatos." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23083" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7599" RevisionGUID="275e6e17-ee34-4482-bbb4-10ba0f0eb760" CreationDate="2020-08-26T20:07:05.460" UserId="7070" Text="There are many lists of the Twelve Olympians, and one can make an argument that any of the gods should or shouldn't be included. One of the most common lists is Zeus, Hera, Apollo, Artemis, Ares, Hermes, Poseidon, Demeter, Hephaestus, Aphrodite, Athena and Dionysus, and the Hestia gave up her seat in the Olympian throne room to Dionysus. This is the most popular list of the Twelve Olympians and is the one that is generally accepted by people who don't care too much. Although, really, why does it matter? There is no reason to group the Greek Gods by who had a throne on Mt. Olympus. I would argue Hades is much more important and powerful than Dionysus or Hephaestus. If we're grouping them by power level, Eros should really be on the list, considering many texts state that it is said that he is an entity feared by Zeus himself. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tl;dr Usually the most common list has Hestia giving up her seat for Dionysus, but there is really no reason to group the Greek Gods this way. Arguments can be made for anyone's inclusion or exclusion on the list. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23084" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5005" RevisionGUID="6b42a3e5-e779-4ebe-b1e3-38833430dcf2" CreationDate="2020-08-26T23:04:20.350" UserId="-1" />
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  <row Id="23107" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7611" RevisionGUID="acc0f8b9-a969-4382-a03e-728a112ac9f2" CreationDate="2020-08-27T21:48:56.263" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
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  <row Id="23110" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7612" RevisionGUID="19375292-be0f-4fc9-9456-879df78647fe" CreationDate="2020-08-27T21:51:09.790" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23111" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7613" RevisionGUID="ea31514a-e842-4d38-b919-6c647f9a52c8" CreationDate="2020-08-27T21:51:09.790" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23112" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7613" RevisionGUID="ea31514a-e842-4d38-b919-6c647f9a52c8" CreationDate="2020-08-27T21:51:09.790" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23114" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6214" RevisionGUID="415e6998-0da8-4593-a44d-9a33ef37d494" CreationDate="2020-08-28T09:01:55.173" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23117" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7616" RevisionGUID="29624a83-a26b-4768-a623-057fab14df2a" CreationDate="2020-08-28T20:26:03.823" UserId="7204" Text="I am wondering if there exists a way to get a numerical estimate of the probability of whether or not a given society will evolve a story with certain characteristics within a certain amount of time. For example: what is the probability that the Mayans, given 1000 more years, would have evolved some kind of story like Atlantis (i.e. involving a sinking city)? I'd also be interested in a cumulative probability that predicts how often you'd expect a type of story to evolve in *any* culture in the world ever (ex. how many Atlantis stories would you expect to be independently evolved worldwide within 1000 years?). I don't want to calculate the probabilities using just historical comparison, because I don't think enough mythological evolution has taken place in history to achieve statistical regularity for every type of story (i.e. it's too small of a sample size to use for reliable predictions).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does the kind of measure I am looking for exist?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23118" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7616" RevisionGUID="29624a83-a26b-4768-a623-057fab14df2a" CreationDate="2020-08-28T20:26:03.823" UserId="7204" Text="Way to measure the probability a story evolving in a given culture" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23119" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7616" RevisionGUID="29624a83-a26b-4768-a623-057fab14df2a" CreationDate="2020-08-28T20:26:03.823" UserId="7204" Text="|folklore|history|traditions|concepts|folkloristics|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23120" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7617" RevisionGUID="44910db1-5f9d-451e-92e0-cc67430eb633" CreationDate="2020-08-29T00:05:56.527" UserId="7014" Text="I recently heard an Italian fairy-tale from a friend, in which a girl rescues her sisters from the Devil's basement. I've identified the tale as *How the Devil Married Three Sisters* (sometimes *Silver Nose* or *The Devil's Silver Nose*). No matter the title, in the story the Devil has a nose made out of silver. Is there a traditional explanation for this, or even other tales where it is mentioned? A peremptory google search and search of this Stack Exchange didn't find me anything besides various tellings and re-tellings of the same story." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23121" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7617" RevisionGUID="44910db1-5f9d-451e-92e0-cc67430eb633" CreationDate="2020-08-29T00:05:56.527" UserId="7014" Text="Why Does the Devil Have a Silver Nose" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23122" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7617" RevisionGUID="44910db1-5f9d-451e-92e0-cc67430eb633" CreationDate="2020-08-29T00:05:56.527" UserId="7014" Text="|the-devil|italy|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23123" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7618" RevisionGUID="3115deb9-2070-4eb6-adc1-2b1afb51cf25" CreationDate="2020-08-29T00:30:23.227" UserId="6920" Text="Italo Calvino mentioned in his *Italian Folktales* that the silver nose was rare even in Italian tales.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[But a silver nose was sometimes used as a prosthetic, when you lost a nose to syphilis.][1]  Hence, a silver nose is a sign of loose living.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-11-3d-nose.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23124" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3406" RevisionGUID="7959325c-007b-4093-9b48-12f2a111d665" CreationDate="2020-08-29T03:01:00.343" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23125" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7619" RevisionGUID="2f4fdcf3-61f7-47df-ba17-7149df78fac4" CreationDate="2020-08-29T12:58:19.183" UserId="7097" Text="Bans on necromancy are hardly a new thing.  The Bible explicitly forbade it 3500 years ago:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, **or a necromancer**. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. — [Deuteronomy 18:10–12 (KJV)](https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/deu/18/10)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and that was simply the official codification of the law.&#xD;&#xA;It would have already been forbidden from long before that.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But note that necromancy has nothing to do with raising the dead as the body of the question implies.&#xD;&#xA;The word means &quot;*communicating with the dead*&quot;, not &quot;*resurrecting the dead*&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Either the Title or the Body of this question needs to be changed to be consistent with the other.**" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23127" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="474" RevisionGUID="77c6395d-a02e-4c42-9e79-ba6f2aefce81" CreationDate="2020-08-29T17:50:04.660" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="23128" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6224" RevisionGUID="77d87451-6c7e-4d61-82b9-20ca77b94c08" CreationDate="2020-08-29T19:05:05.470" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23129" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7620" RevisionGUID="d28effe2-739e-4e37-bb69-c5cd356feb35" CreationDate="2020-08-30T11:10:41.883" UserId="5511" Text="In myths, humans follow a limited number of patterns, regardless of their cultural background. This field of study is called [Comparative Mythology][1]. This has uncovered a number of parallels, or archetypes, between the myths of different cultures, including some very widespread recurring themes and plot elements, like:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Creation of mankind from clay&#xD;&#xA; - Acquisition of fire for the benefit of humanity&#xD;&#xA; - Flood myths&#xD;&#xA; - Dying/Mortal gods &amp; resurrection&#xD;&#xA; - Creative sacrifice&#xD;&#xA; - Axis mundi&#xD;&#xA; - Titanomachy&#xD;&#xA; - Giants&#xD;&#xA; - Dragons and serpents&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Comparative mythologists come from various fields, including folklore, anthropology, history, linguistics, and religious studies, and they have used a variety of methods to compare myths:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Linguistic&#xD;&#xA; - Structural&#xD;&#xA; - Psychological&#xD;&#xA; - Philogenetical&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The probability of a culture developing a myth on these archetypes is high, since these archetypes have been found all over the world. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are no mathematical models to predict probability of this AFAIK.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23130" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7621" RevisionGUID="429000aa-6997-41dc-be42-c004c0c98acb" CreationDate="2020-08-31T01:38:20.897" UserId="4068" Text="It's the phallic symbolism. In early Greek theatre, there were satyr plays put on where men dressed up in goat like costumes - that is as satyrs - with over-sized phalluses to symbolise their lustful nature. They were seen as low comedy in counter-point to the high tragedy which was the centre-piece of Attic theatre. This is where the notion of satire comes from.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As unbridled lust is seen as a capital vice, according to Aquinas, then it's no surprise that this symbolism in Christianity, given its Greek roots, is now seen as Satanic." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23131" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7621" RevisionGUID="e37dcd7b-84c0-4b71-85ff-e3b38330c9c5" CreationDate="2020-08-31T01:44:16.440" UserId="4068" Comment="added 259 characters in body" Text="It's the phallic symbolism. In early Greek theatre, there were satyr plays put on where men dressed up in goat like costumes - that is as satyrs - with over-sized phalluses to symbolise their lustful nature. They were seen as low comedy in counter-point to the high tragedy which was the centre-piece of Attic theatre. This is where the notion of satire comes from.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As unbridled lust is seen as a capital vice, for example Aquinas writes in his *Summa Theologicae*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;A capital vice is that which has an exceedingly desirable end, that in his desire for it, a man goes on to the commission of many sins, all of which is said to originate in that vice as their chief source &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This, given this, it's no surprise that this symbolism in Christianity, given its Greek roots, is now seen as Satanic." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23132" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7622" RevisionGUID="3032d4c8-dfe0-4b5b-be13-48fbd69432e5" CreationDate="2020-08-31T22:14:17.577" UserId="1241" Text="**When and why did necromancy became a bad thing?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Probably since it was first practiced. However, there are no sources that ancient that have survived to our day. Some people would have been against it from day one because they would have thought it unholy and unnatural to the lest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The oldest literary account of necromancy is found in Homer's (12th-8th century) Odyssey.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Necromancy][1] is a practice of magic involving communication with the dead – either by summoning their spirits as apparitions, visions or raising them bodily – for the purpose of divination, imparting the means to foretell future events, discover hidden knowledge, to bring someone back from the dead, or to use the dead as a weapon. Sometimes referred to as &quot;Death Magic&quot;, the term may also sometimes be used in a more general sense to refer to black magic or witchcraft.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The word necromancy is adapted from Late Latin necromantia, itself borrowed from post-Classical Greek νεκρομαντεία (nekromanteía), a compound of Ancient Greek νεκρός (nekrós), &quot;dead body&quot;, and μαντεία (manteía), &quot;divination by means of&quot;; this compound form was first used by Origen of Alexandria in the 3rd century AD. The Classical Greek term was ἡ νέκυια (nekyia), from the episode of the Odyssey in which Odysseus visits the realm of the dead souls and νεκρομαντεία in Hellenistic Greek, rendered as necromantīa in Latin, and as necromancy in 17th-century English.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Early necromancy was related to – and most likely evolved from – shamanism, which calls upon spirits such as the ghosts of ancestors. Classical necromancers addressed the dead in &quot;a mixture of high-pitch squeaking and low droning&quot;, comparable to the trance-state mutterings of shamans.[7] Necromancy was prevalent throughout Western antiquity with records of its practice in ancient Egypt, Babylonia, Greece and Rome. In his Geographica, Strabo refers to νεκρομαντία (nekromantia), or &quot;diviners by the dead&quot;, as the foremost practitioners of divination among the people of Persia,[8] and it is believed to have also been widespread among the peoples of Chaldea (particularly the Sabians, or &quot;star-worshipers&quot;), Etruria and Babylonia. The Babylonian necromancers were called manzazuu or sha'etemmu, and the spirits they raised were called etemmu.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **The oldest literary account of necromancy is found in [Homer][2]’s [Odyssey][3]**. Under the direction of Circe, a powerful sorceress, Odysseus travels to the underworld (katabasis) in order to gain insight about his impending voyage home by raising the spirits of the dead through the use of spells which Circe has taught him. He wishes to invoke and question the shade of Tiresias in particular; however, he is unable to summon the seer's spirit without the assistance of others. The Odyssey's passages contain many descriptive references to necromantic rituals: rites must be performed around a pit with fire during nocturnal hours, and Odysseus has to follow a specific recipe, which includes the blood of sacrificial animals, to concoct a libation for the ghosts to drink while he recites prayers to both the ghosts and gods of the underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Biblical writing are very explicit that necromancy is wrong and is punishable by death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord; because of these same detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you. - [Deuteronomy 18:10-12][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Book of Deuteronomy* is believed to have been written by [Moses the Lawgiver][5] himself sometime in mid to late 13th century BC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necromancy&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.biography.com/writer/homer&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odyssey&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2018:10-12&amp;version=NIV&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23133" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7616" RevisionGUID="5c2909a7-97b5-47e6-8c5e-8755f15ea6dd" CreationDate="2020-09-01T21:10:50.943" UserId="7204" Comment="added 527 characters in body" Text="I am wondering if there exists a way to get a numerical estimate of the probability of whether or not a given society will evolve a story with certain characteristics within a certain amount of time. For example: what is the probability that the Mayans, given 1000 more years, would have evolved some kind of story like Atlantis (i.e. involving a sinking city)? I'd also be interested in a cumulative probability that predicts how often you'd expect a type of story to evolve in *any* culture in the world ever (ex. how many Atlantis stories would you expect to be independently evolved worldwide within 1000 years?). I don't want to calculate the probabilities using just historical comparison, because I don't think enough mythological evolution has taken place in history to achieve statistical regularity for every type of story (i.e. it's too small of a sample size to use for reliable predictions).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does the kind of measure I am looking for exist?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;EDIT: my motivation for this question, (in case it somehow helps) is to find out the likelihood that a myth would have evolved with the characteristics &quot;contains unusual event&quot;, &quot;has important practical implications&quot;, and &quot;claims to have been witnessed by a approximately every member of the society (at the time) which believed in the myth&quot; (an approximation of that probability of represent to me because I am looking into a claim that said that the probability for this is so low that it shouldn't have happened even once in any society in history)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23135" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7624" RevisionGUID="70a2339d-0003-4f00-ba0a-634690bfd385" CreationDate="2020-09-02T07:54:38.153" UserId="4068" Text="The question suggests that the notion of photographs 'stealing souls' is primitive and without foundation and what one might expect pre-literate and pre-media societies to misunderstand, I'd like to present a different view.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First, this has a parallel within Western thinking. For example, the Society of the Spectacle by Guy Debord, was a very influential thesis which touches upon exactly this point, suitably interpreted. And this is only underlined today by the pervasiveness of the digital and virtual worlds where the darker dystopic vision is knocking up against the earlier, and it seems, naively utopian picture  sold to everywhere. This is only underlined by the fact of the immense corporate monopoly power wielded by the big five tech giants and which only very recently has been challenged by democratic means - for example, Facebook was fined $4 Billion dollars after the Cambridge Analytica scandal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What was Cambridge Analytica upto, other than 'stealing souls'? And what was Facebook upto, but facilitating the 'stealing of souls'? All for a price of course to their real clientele - advertisers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems to me, that the Plains Indians were spot on." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23136" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7620" RevisionGUID="dc41b06e-1472-4805-9fdf-da27ad83f4d8" CreationDate="2020-09-02T12:50:17.537" UserId="5511" Comment="added 1333 characters in body" Text="In myths, humans follow a limited number of patterns, regardless of their cultural background. This field of study is called [Comparative Mythology][1]. This has uncovered a number of parallels, or archetypes, between the myths of different cultures, including some very widespread recurring themes and plot elements, like:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Creation of mankind from clay&#xD;&#xA; - Acquisition of fire for the benefit of humanity&#xD;&#xA; - Flood myths&#xD;&#xA; - Dying/Mortal gods &amp; resurrection&#xD;&#xA; - Creative sacrifice&#xD;&#xA; - Axis mundi&#xD;&#xA; - Titanomachy&#xD;&#xA; - Giants&#xD;&#xA; - Dragons and serpents&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Comparative mythologists come from various fields, including folklore, anthropology, history, linguistics, and religious studies, and they have used a variety of methods to compare myths:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Linguistic&#xD;&#xA; - Structural&#xD;&#xA; - Psychological&#xD;&#xA; - Phylogenetical&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The probability of a culture developing a myth on these archetypes is high, since these archetypes have been found all over the world. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are no mathematical models to predict probability of this AFAIK.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;EDIT: Answer to added motivations &amp; comment question:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Phylogenetics will give you models for the origin and evolution of languages, that is, the vocabulary and grammar. The grammar of a language will have *some* influence on the myths generated by that language, but not to the extent you ask for in your comment. A simple example would be:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*If a language's grammar mandates a subject for a verb in a sentence (e.g. &quot;it rains&quot;), then what we see in mythologies stemming from such a language is a higher percentage of creator &amp; intervening deities than in languages that do not have this rule.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As to your motivation criteria:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **contains unusual events**: myths by definition are about unusual events, otherwise they are just stories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **has important practical implications:** on what do you base this? Myths, other than a source of religious control by a clergy, have very little practical implications&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **claims to have been witnessed by a approximately every member of the society (at the time) which believed in the myth:** we know from anthropology and literary criticism that eye-witness and hearsay accounts are the most unreliable sources of historical information available to us. And regardless of that fact, there are - to my knowledge - no myths that entire societies claimed to have witnessed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23138" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="2855" RevisionGUID="04c9c10f-10e5-4ba1-8be0-34ccaaf801dc" CreationDate="2020-09-03T13:43:31.957" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="23140" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7625" RevisionGUID="f3f12b95-4f12-45d2-8f58-8a9bc748afa2" CreationDate="2020-09-03T18:36:36.367" UserId="5594" Text="Our projects have the names:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Rome &#xD;&#xA; - Conquerors&#xD;&#xA; - Titans&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Our manager told us that those three have something in common, but what? He left an air a mystery over this question.." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23141" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7625" RevisionGUID="f3f12b95-4f12-45d2-8f58-8a9bc748afa2" CreationDate="2020-09-03T18:36:36.367" UserId="5594" Text="What does Rome, Conquerors &amp; Titans have in common?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23142" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7625" RevisionGUID="f3f12b95-4f12-45d2-8f58-8a9bc748afa2" CreationDate="2020-09-03T18:36:36.367" UserId="5594" Text="|greek|roman|mythohistory|history|titans|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23143" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7626" RevisionGUID="376ceac2-4b38-42ef-a230-df14f7f12810" CreationDate="2020-09-04T08:42:11.467" UserId="5511" Text="Heracles supposedly conquered Rome and freed a Titan. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod's *Theogony* and Aeschylus' *Prometheus Unbound* both tell that Heracles shot and killed the eagle that tortured Prometheus (which was his punishment by Zeus for stealing fire from the gods and giving it to mortals). Heracles freed the Titan from his chains and his torments. Prometheus then made predictions regarding further deeds of Heracles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In ancient Roman religion and myth, Hercules was venerated as a divinized hero and incorporated into the legends of Rome's founding. &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23144" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5754" RevisionGUID="a536ca1d-446b-4f73-a2a0-711805b63132" CreationDate="2020-09-04T09:03:25.420" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23145" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7625" RevisionGUID="4b56a659-7871-41a5-a91d-59229464b762" CreationDate="2020-09-04T12:37:46.933" UserId="6920" Comment="grammar and punctuation" Text="Our projects have the names:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Rome &#xD;&#xA; - Conquerors&#xD;&#xA; - Titans&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Our manager told us that those three have something in common.  But what?  He left an air of mystery over this question." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23146" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="7625" RevisionGUID="4b56a659-7871-41a5-a91d-59229464b762" CreationDate="2020-09-04T12:37:46.933" Comment="Proposed by 6920 approved by 5726, 5594 edit id of 1831" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23147" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7616" RevisionGUID="ebaca509-d0fc-4e2f-970a-ab827730bb11" CreationDate="2020-09-04T16:57:10.040" UserId="7204" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body" Text="I am wondering if there exists a way to get a numerical estimate of the probability of whether or not a given society will evolve a story with certain characteristics within a certain amount of time. For example: what is the probability that the Mayans, given 1000 more years, would have evolved some kind of story like Atlantis (i.e. involving a sinking city)? I'd also be interested in a cumulative probability that predicts how often you'd expect a type of story to evolve in *any* culture in the world ever (ex. how many Atlantis stories would you expect to be independently evolved worldwide within 1000 years?). I don't want to calculate the probabilities using just historical comparison, because I don't think enough mythological evolution has taken place in history to achieve statistical regularity for every type of story (i.e. it's too small of a sample size to use for reliable predictions).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does the kind of measure I am looking for exist?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;EDIT: my motivation for this question, (in case it somehow helps) is to find out the likelihood that a myth would have evolved with the characteristics &quot;contains unusual event&quot;, &quot;has important practical implications&quot;, and &quot;claims to have been witnessed by a approximately every member of the society (at the time) which believed in the myth&quot; (an approximation of that probability of import to me because I am looking into a claim that said that the probability for this is so low that it shouldn't have happened even once in any society in history)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23149" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7627" RevisionGUID="75c3ec1a-f381-4ece-be10-4ef0cf033508" CreationDate="2020-09-05T17:35:59.717" UserId="7219" Text="My question is really at the margin of Literature and Mythology, my main focus is how hubris is involved in the conversion of Lucifer into Satan. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is my first question here, so I may be not following the strict rules but I’m trying my best. Except John Milton’s *Paradise Lost* I couldn’t find any references of Lucifer’s conversion, and through some informal conversation with other people I came to know about that this is related to Abrahamic Mythology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;T.S. Eliot tries to convey the same idea by these lines from [Burnt Norton](http://www.davidgorman.com/4quartets/1-norton.htm)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Time and the bell have buried the day,  &#xD;&#xA;The black cloud carries the sun away.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although, I have given literary references of that event but still my aim is to know about the actual event not to understand a particular literary work. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23150" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7627" RevisionGUID="75c3ec1a-f381-4ece-be10-4ef0cf033508" CreationDate="2020-09-05T17:35:59.717" UserId="7219" Text="How was hubris involved in the conversion of Lucifer into Satan?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23151" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7627" RevisionGUID="75c3ec1a-f381-4ece-be10-4ef0cf033508" CreationDate="2020-09-05T17:35:59.717" UserId="7219" Text="|abrahamic-religions|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23153" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7629" RevisionGUID="41dcdfe4-68ef-41e9-a923-e63615735fc4" CreationDate="2020-09-06T01:17:51.897" UserId="7097" Text="The only canonical reference to Lucifer is:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; — [Isaiah 14:12–15(KJV) - How art thou fallen](https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/isa/14/12/)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If that isn't hubris, I don't know what is." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23154" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7630" RevisionGUID="794bc8ed-cc7e-48e9-9011-3f921da873e1" CreationDate="2020-09-06T06:31:51.813" UserId="5511" Text="Among critical scholars, the Lucifer mentioned in Isaiah and Daniel is *not* considered the same as Satan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Isaiah chapters 13-23 describes a series of “burdens” on various nations, e.g. Babylon, Tyre, Egypt. Then specifically in 14:4:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; That thou hast taken up this simile Concerning the king of Babylon, and said, How hath the exactor ceased&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The prophecy is therefore about the human king of Babylon, who is described as “Lucifer”, and verse 16 describes his fall:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thy beholders look to thee, to thee they attend, Is this the man causing the earth to tremble, Shaking kingdoms?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So this clearly refers to a king like any other, verses 9-10 affirm this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sheol beneath hath been troubled at thee, To meet thy coming in, It is waking up for thee Rephaim, All chiefs ones of earth, It hath raised up from their thrones All kings of nations. All of them answer and say unto thee, Even thou hast become weak like us! Unto us thou hast become like!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The later association with the devil comes from the opening words of verse 9: *[sheol][1]*  in Judaism is originally the place where all dead go. In later eras, it became the destination for the wicked and a place of punishment.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As to your specific question about hubris, we first need to identify to which king Isaiah is referring.  “Lucifer” means “the morning star”, which is the brightest of the stars. In the parable, this star proudly decides to “ascend into heaven (which by the way contradicts the later association with Satan, who was cast *out* of heaven). This is described in verse 13:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And thou saidst in thy heart: the heavens I go up, Above stars of God I raise my throne, And I sit in the mount of meeting in the sides of the north.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Philologists associate this with Nebuchadnezzar, based on for example Daniel 4:22. Nebuchadnezzar proudly surveyed the great kingdom he had built up, thinking that he had conquered other nations in his own strength, rather than recognizing that the Abrahamic deity had bestowed this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thou it is, O king, for thou hast become great and mighty, and thy greatness hath become great, and hath reached to the heavens, and thy dominion to the end of the earth;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The association with the casting out of the devil comes from Jehova's punishment as described in Daniel 4:33, which references the king by name:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'In that hour the thing hath been fulfilled on Nebuchadnezzar, and from men he is driven, and the herb as oxen he eateth, and by the dew of the heavens his body is wet, till that his hair as eagles' hath become great, and his nails as birds.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So Nebuchadnezzar's hubris is the cause for his downfall in the OT. The entire story is clearly about a king, not a fallen angel. The consensus among critical scholars is that the book of Daniel is historical fiction. Nebuchadnezzar's recognition of the power of Yahweh is unlikely to have actually occurred.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23155" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7631" RevisionGUID="48d22c1e-3240-4126-b37b-6ca4be05805a" CreationDate="2020-09-06T07:26:13.253" UserId="2682" Text="Yes, there are stories of other egg-laying divinities, although they fail at simultaneously fulfilling your other criteria quite so closely to match the story of Nemesis becoming Helen's mother. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A Greek story parallels Leda's specifically in the versions thereof in which there is no goddess involved and Leda herself is the one said to have laid an egg (or two) after consorting with Zeus. [*See the section* `Molione and Her Twin Sons` *below.*] There is at least one Inca parallel to these Greek myths. [*See* `A Quintuple Deity, &amp; Twin Gods, Among the Inca` *below.*] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Alternatively, in some South East Asian narratives, there are divinities who lay eggs from which heroes hatch but then these children are raised by their own parents and not by humans. Yet a different motif occurs in an Inca creation myth in which the sun-god sends to his son Vichama three eggs, each made of a different metal, out of which hatched the different social strata of people.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Very similarly, in the Nuhiño, &quot;Earth Story,&quot; of the Jivaro of Ecuador and Peru: Chingaso, the wife of the creator-god Kumpara, gives to her son Etsa (the Sun) and to Etsa's wife Nantu (the Moon) an egg from which the first human woman, Mika, hatches. The birds and animals of the forests are later produced from other eggs given to Nantu by Chingaso. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On pp. 36-37 of her *Thematic Guide to World Mythology*, Lorena Stookey says that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;In a tale from the Admiralty Island... people are born from the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eggs laid by the World Turtle, and many similar stories can be found&#xD;&#xA;&gt; throughout Polynesia. In Tibet, where egg myths abound, some of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; myths recount the origins of different orders of people. One myth, for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; instance, tells how the water spirits from four original eggs produce&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the classes of people who make up Tibet's social order. From the water&#xD;&#xA;&gt; spirit of a golden egg came those who are kings, and those who are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; servants came from a turquoise egg. An iron egg produces religious&#xD;&#xA;&gt; leaders or holy men, and social outcasts come from a bronze egg. In&#xD;&#xA;&gt; similar fashion, another myth tells how Tibet's six traditional clans&#xD;&#xA;&gt; originate in six yellow eggs that are carefully cracked open by a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; blacksmith sent by the spirits. According to this tale, two great&#xD;&#xA;&gt; birds lay eighteen primal eggs that are yellow, blue, and white, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; colors of the earth, sea and sky. The clans of people emerge from the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; six earth-colored eggs after a blacksmith from the gods cracks open&#xD;&#xA;&gt; six white eggs and a smith from the water spirits opens six blue&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eggs.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are also Central and South American myths in which semidivine heroes (often twins) are born from an egg (or a pair of eggs) which are found by a woman or by a married couple who then raise the heroes hatched from the eggs. Sometimes the source of the eggs is implied to be divine providence but generally mysterious so that it is unclear if the eggs were ever even laid by anyone or rather perhaps created spontaneously. [*But see also* `The Moon's Sister and Her Descent into the Orinoco` *below.*]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A virtually universal phenomenon is a creation myth in which the first god or the first man (often these categories amount to the same thing) hatches from an egg which then becomes the universe; or that this deity fashions the world into an egg-shaped structure; or a combination of these two events occurs. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sometimes the egg is laid by a cosmic primaeval bird but this creature is also mysterious in the sense that, while it—or rather *she*—might essentially be the mother of a god, she is not necessarily considered to be divine herself, and this is the last occasion in which she features as a character in the mythical chronology.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A notable exception comes from a Greek myth in which Nemesis's mother Nyx—whom the *Funk &amp; Wagnalls Standard Dictionary of Folklore, Mythology and Legend* interprets as the primordial cosmic bird—becomes the first mother after producing a god through an egg which she has laid. [*Further details below under* `Primaeval Night: Grandmother of the Birds`.] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his book *Creation Myths of the World*, David Adams Leeming mentions that the Iban Dayak of Borneo have a story in which two giant birds, named Ara and Irik, &quot;floated on the primordial waters and produced two giant eggs that became the heavens and Earth.&quot; Leeming also refers to these birds as &quot;creator gods&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**On the Greater Sunda Islands**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are numerous variations of the creation myth of the Toba Batak of Sumatra Island. Most of them start off with the chief deity, called Mulajadi Nabolon, dwelling in the uppermost level of the universe together with a few animals, including some birds. One of these creatures is a blue chicken with an iron beak and shiny, braceleted copper claws, named Manuk-Manuk Hulambujati. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This chicken laid three eggs which it at first complained to Mulajadi Nabolon were too big for it to incubate. After receiving assistance and specific instructions, however, the eggs eventually hatched, producing offspring who were, at the same time, the first men as well as the gods who organised the rest of the universe and who became the ancestors of the human race. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of these divine men, who are also regarded as the sons of Mulajadi Nabolon, is named Batara Guru, who features in a story from the neighbouring island of Java, in which he and his two brothers were produced from a single egg laid by their mother, a goddess called Dewi Rekatawati, or Dewi Rakti, who was married to a god named Sang Hyang Tunggal. The Javanese Batara Guru, also called Sang Hyang Manikmaya, was the lastborn of his brothers, having emerged from the egg's yolk while the elder two came, respectively from the eggshell and the egg-white. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Batara Guru from Sumatra Island had a daughter named Si Boru Deak Parujar, whose first child, according to Wikipedia, was egg-shaped, &quot;not similar at all to humans&quot;. On the instructions of her grandfather Mulajadi Nabolon, Si Boru Deak Parujar and her husband buried this child and &quot;out of it came plants that spread on the surface of the earth.&quot;    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**A Quintuple Deity, &amp; Twin Gods, Among the Inca**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the Huarochirí Manuscript, a storm-god named Pariacaca existed in the form of five men who were initially falcons which hatched from five different falcon eggs. Bizarrely, they are said, while they were yet still eggs, to have had a son, namely the hero Huatya Curi. The Manuscript also reports the idea that this Pariacaca is the son of the god Cuniraya Viracocha. It is not explained whether Cuniraya Viracocha may have mated with a falcon (or something?) to engender such progeny. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Mt Pariacaca][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Mt Pariacaca, May 2004, by Cordillera Pariacaca&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Handbook of Inca Mythology*, Paul R. Steele &amp; Catherine J. Allen write the following:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;The Augustinians were told that a creator deity named Atajugu&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lived in the sky. He divided himself into three persons with two&#xD;&#xA;&gt; servants. He sent to earth a double, his servant called Guamansuri,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; who disguised his divinity by working in the fields of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Guachemines, the indigenous group in the area. Like the Andean deities&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Viracocha and Cuniraya Viracocha, Guamansuri adopted the disguise of a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; poor man. He then made a Guachemines woman called Cautaguan pregnant,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and was subsequently burned alive for this act. Cautaguan also died&#xD;&#xA;&gt; while giving birth to two eggs. The eggs rested on a dunghill, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eventually two brothers, Catequil and Piguerao, emerged. They revived&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their mother and then began to kill the Guachemines. Those who escaped&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were forced to flee to lower warmer lands toward the coast, and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; depopulated region was filled with a new generation of people. In&#xD;&#xA;&gt; expelling the Guachemines, Piguerao and Catequil used the weapons&#xD;&#xA;&gt; associated with the Andean Lightning deity, who created atmospheric&#xD;&#xA;&gt; effects by firing sling stones.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The account also seems to imply that Cautaguan eventually became a mountain-goddess called Mamacatequil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Unconventional Midwifery in Mongoland**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A sort of reverse version of what you're asking about takes place in a story from the Democratic Republic of Congo. The Mongo hero Bokele was hatched from an egg. In Ntomba, one of the dialects of the Mongo language, according to *African Mythology: A to Z*, a book by Patricia Ann Lynch &amp; Jeremy Roberts, the hero's name is Mokele, whose father, the chief of the Mongo people, was also &quot;the first male human&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In another book, *The Lianja Epic*, by Mubima Maneniang', this early chieftain is called Waku-Waku, while, according to *A Dictionary of African Mythology: The Mythmaker as Storyteller*, by Harold Scheub, his name was Wai, and his many wives all become pregnant at the same time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his book *African Myths of Origin*, Stephen Belcher tells us that Bokele's father went off on a trip, &quot;ordering that all his wives must have children upon his return&quot;. The favourite wife &quot;showed no signs of pregnancy until she was helped by a forest spirit who drew the egg from her and hatched it.&quot; In Lynch &amp; Roberts' account, while his father was out hunting,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mokele was born from an egg that a sympathetic river goddess implanted&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in his mother’s belly. The baby would not grow in the mother’s belly,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; so the river goddess removed it and hatched it herself. The next day,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; she presented the baby boy to the mother but took him home again for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the night. Mokele grew into the size of a four-year-old boy  the next&#xD;&#xA;&gt; day. The river goddess allowed him to go home with his mother but&#xD;&#xA;&gt; warned her to wait a few more days until she showed him to anyone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Within a few days the hero was full grown, had been dramatically introduced to his father, and was off on a mission to buy sunlight from a neighbouring rival community.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Moon's Sister and Her Descent into the Orinoco**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Watunna*, the creation cycle of the So'to of Venezuela, tells us that, in the sky, the creator Wanadi kept a massive stone egg which was full of his unborn people, whom he wished to eventually live on the earth. According to Mineke Schipper, in *Humanity's End as a New Beginning: World Disasters in Myths*, &quot;This egg, called Huehanna, was round like a ball, huge and hollow, its shell thick, hard and heavy&quot; and the egg was abuzz with the laughter, singing and dancing of the people inside it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nuna, the moon, who was villainous and always hungry, stole Huehanna intending to devour it, but Nuna's young sister Frimene, finding the egg to be beautiful, and with a view to saving its people, hid Huehanna in her vagina, telling herself that she would become the mother of these people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A tussle in the night, in which Nuna, under the cover of darkness, tried to pull Huehanna out of his sister, resulted in the first menstrual bleeding. Once Frimene confirmed that it was indeed Nuna who had accosted her, she fled from him his house and into the jungle, running until she reached the newborn Uriñaku (Orinoco). Plunging herself into the river, she transformed herself into Huiio, the Great Snake, whereupon she built herself a house at the bottom of the rapids.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Orinoco][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Frimene had been betrothed to Wanadi's brother Müdo, whom Wanadi commissioned to lure the Great Snake out of the water so that he could retrieve his egg from her. Müdo gathered the first-ever hunting party, which pursued Huiio along the river and shot her dead with arrows. Huehanna, which Huiio had released from her grasp as she was dying, burst open against a large rock in the water. The people inside turned into fish eggs, which, upon hatching, produced fish and the other animals which live in rivers and lakes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Two of the fish-eggs remained intact. A jaguar named Manuwa, whose wife was a toad called Kawao, wished to keep these eggs to eat later, and instructed Kawao to take them home, although she wanted to hatch children to rear from them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The twin brothers Shikiemona and Iureke emerged from the eggs and rapidly grew into unruly, childlike men, who not only raised a terrible ruckus shotuing, screaming and fighting, but also frequently transformed into different animals, such as fish, crickets and cockroaches, playing pranks on people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After visiting Huiio's underwater house in the form of fish, Shikiemona and Iureke discovered their true origin when Huiio visited them in a dream. They avenged her death by flooding the entire earth. The rainbow, which was formed from Huiio's crown of feathers, remained as a memorial of her death, and after the Great Water subsided, Wanadi decided to make other people. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Huiio herself, in actuality, was too powerful to die, and it is merely her body which remained on earth, while she went on to dwell &quot;in the highest Heaven, in Lake Akuena&quot;, whose mistress she became, presiding over eternal life.         &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Mexican Maize Heroes and Founder-Kings**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a Nahua myth in which an old childless couple finds a pair of large chicken eggs and they decide to eat one while giving the other to their hen to hatch. After a few days a boy emerges from the remaining egg, causing the couple to lament that they had probably eaten his sister who would have hatched from the first egg. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As narrated in their book *A Land Without Gods: Process Theory, Maldevelopment and the Mexican Nahuas*, Jacques M. Chevalier &amp; Daniel Buckles conclude the story with: &quot;Moreover, they didn't know who the little boy was.&quot; He was Sintiopiltsin, &quot;the venerable son-god-ear-of-corn&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kondoy, the king who founded the Mixe nation, was also hatched from an egg found by an old peasant couple who had no children. After having their turkey hatch the egg, they raised the boy that emerged therefrom as their own.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his book *Art and Myth of the Ancient Maya*, Oswaldo Chinchilla Mazariegos reports that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The father of Homshuk, the Popoluca maize hero, died in a distant&#xD;&#xA;&gt; place—in war, according to a version from Soteapan, Veracruz—and his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mother ground the baby, tired of his ceaseless crying... Homshuk&#xD;&#xA;&gt; somehow survived, and according to some versions took the shape of an&#xD;&#xA;&gt; egg, which was found by an old cannibal woman. Her husband wanted to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eat the egg, but she decided to raise him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Conflict then arises between Homshuk and his adoptive parents, the man still trying to eat him at first, and eventually the maize hero manages to kill the couple through trickery and continue his adventures thereafter.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Homshuk][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a Yucatec story, an old childless witch prays to the god Chic Chan, who, according to Emese Fromm's article &quot;The Pyramid of the Magician: Ancient Maya Ruins in Uxmal,&quot; was &quot;one of the four rain serpents, or rain gods&quot; who were representations of the god Chac. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;One night she had a dream where this god told her to look for a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; turtle egg by the nearby cenote, take it home and wait for it to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hatch. In the morning, the old woman did what the god told her and she&#xD;&#xA;&gt; found a large, green turtle egg at the cenote.&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;She took it to her home, wrapped it in cotton and sat it in a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; corner of her hut. She cared for it day after day, keeping it warm,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; talking to it, singing to it. A few months later, the egg cracked and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a tiny baby boy stepped out.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Yucatan Times article &quot;Uxmal Yucatan: The Legend of the Dwarf&quot; says that the witch named the boy Saiyawincoob and that &quot;Time passed but the child remained the same size, the woman noticed that his voice changed and his beard began to grow, so she discovered that he was a dwarf.&quot; In *Xbalanque's Marriage: A Commentary on the Q‘eqchi‘ Myth of Sun and Moon*, Hyacinthus Edwinus Maria Braakhuis says that the dwarf eventually took on the name Ez. He is renowned for having magically built the famous pyramid of Uxmal in one day, thereafter becoming the city's king.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Uxmal Magician's Temple][4]][4]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Pyramid of the Magician, 25 November 2009, by runt35 on Panoramio&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Vietnam's Children of the Dragon and Grandchildren of the Fairy**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lạc Long Quân, the &quot;Dragon Lord of Lạc,&quot; who had emerged from the sea, was the son of a mountain god and, according to Wikipedia, &quot;the dragon goddess that rules the sky and the ocean.&quot; Lạc Long Quân married Âu Cơ, an immortal mountain fairy who often took the form of a bird. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After their union, Âu Cơ gave birth to an egg sac containing a hundred eggs, from which, seven days later, their one hundred sons were hatched. These children would go on to become the ancestors of the Vietnamese. The story still does contain duality with the offspring, however, who were divided in half by their parents. Lạc Long Quân is quoted by Wikipedia as having said to his wife, after the hatching:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;I am a descendant of the Dragon, you are [a] descendant of the Fairy,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fire and water cannot live together in harmony.&quot; The two of them then&#xD;&#xA;&gt; divided their children. Fifty sons followed their mother to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mountainous north, the other fifty followed their father to live in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the south; these children are ancestor[s] of Bách Việt. The oldest&#xD;&#xA;&gt; brother followed Âu Cơ to Phong Châu (Phú Thọ), became Quân's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; successor and ruled as Hung King.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Thủ Dầu Một City][5]][5]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;City of Thủ Dầu Một, uploaded to Wikimapia.org by thachhan120282, c. 2011&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Korea's Hero Arisen from a Fallen Goddess**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;King Dongmyeong, who founded Goguryeo, the northernmost of the Three Kingdoms of Korea, was originally called Jumong. His mother was called Yuhwa, and one version of her adventures combines two of your Question's criteria in that, in it, she is originally a goddess who is disowned by her father and exiled into a mortal existence. Once she loses her divinity, upon being exposed to sunlight, she lays an egg, from which Jumong hatches. In his book *Asian Mythologies*, Yves Bonnefoy spells the hero's names as *Tongmyǒng* and *Čumong*, and his mother's name as *Ryuhwa*, narrating their story as follows on pp. 296-297. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;The *Wei chou* (chap. C) relates that the eldest daughter of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; deity of the waters was bathing in a spot called The Heart of the Bear&#xD;&#xA;&gt; when she was surprised by Hämosu, her future husband. The birth of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Čumong resulted from this encounter.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;&quot;In the capital of Eastern Fouyou, a man appeared, it is not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; known from where, who said his name was Hämosu, and who claimed to be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the son of the Heavenly Emperor who had to come to found a state.&quot; The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; daughter of the deity of the waters explained how she came to know the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; son of the god of the sky: &quot;I saw the man. After he had lured me into&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a house located at the spot called the Heart of the Bear ... he made&#xD;&#xA;&gt; me commit adultery with him. After that, he left and never&#xD;&#xA;&gt; returned.&quot;&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;In this way the girl conceived an egg from which Čumong emerged.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The same text says:&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; &lt;sup&gt;Ryuhwa... was shut up in a room. The light of the sun fell on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; her. Shielding her body, she avoided it, but the light of the sun&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; pursued her. After that, she conceived and gave birth to an egg. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; king (of Fouyu) ... had the egg thrown to a dog, and then to a pig,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; but neither the dog nor the pig ate it. It was abandoned on the road;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; cattle and horses avoided it. Later, it was left in a field; the birds&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; covered it with their wings. The king ... tried to break it, but&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; without success. He gave it back to the woman (who &quot;gave birth&quot;). She&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; wrapped up the egg and put it in a warm place. A boy broke its shell&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; and emerged from it.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Tomb of King Tongmyong][6]][6]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Tomb of King Tongmyong, from Persephone's Blog on PersephoneTravels.com&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**A Dragon Princess and the Kingdoms of Burma**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pyusawhti (or Pyuminhti) was an early ruler of Pagan (now called Bagan), the Wikipedia article on him saying:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;The pre-*Hmannan* Burmese chronicles claim that Pyusawhti, a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; descendant of a solar spirit (နေမင်းသား) and a dragon princess&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (နဂါးမင်းသမီး ဇံသီး), founded Pagan in 167/168 CE, and hence the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Burmese monarchy. The dragon princess, granddaughter of the Dragon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Emperor Kala Naga, was impregnated by the solar spirit who was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; visiting the earth. Out of this union, the dragon princess laid three&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eggs, all of which a hunter took away. The hunter accidentally broke&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the gold-colored egg of the three at Mogok, and the broken golden egg&#xD;&#xA;&gt; turned into numerous rubies and gems (for which the Mogok region is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; known to the present-day). The hunter then lost the remaining two eggs&#xD;&#xA;&gt; during one heavy storm. One egg, in brown color, ended up in a small&#xD;&#xA;&gt; kingdom in either northern Burma (Thindwe or Tagaung) or Yunnan, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; out came a female human princess, who later became queen of that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; kingdom. The remaining egg, in white color, drifted down the Irrawaddy&#xD;&#xA;&gt; all the way to Nyaung-U, where it was picked up by an elderly&#xD;&#xA;&gt; childless Pyu peasant couple. When the egg hatched, Pyusawhti was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; born. The Pyu couple raised him like their own son. He was then&#xD;&#xA;&gt; educated by a local monk named Yathekyaung.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Pyusawhti][7]][7]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;King Pyusawhti, 26 October 2015, by Phyo WP&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Heroes of the Ovambo**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Ovambo of Angola and Namibia tell of &quot;a good girl who married in a faraway country&quot; in what Harold Scheub seems to interpret as the beginning of time. She laid an egg several times but before long each one broke, until her mother advised her to place the next egg that she laid on top of the granary, which the girl did. When the egg hatched, a child emerged from it who named himself Nambaisita, the &quot;Self-Created&quot; One, boasting that he had made himself and that he therefore did not fall under the jurisdiction of the ruler of the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kalunga (God), who lived in an enclosure in a different neighbourhood, was annoyed by this threat to his authority, and summoned the boy to his home, where the two contended with each other in a series of challenges set by Kalunga, all of which Nambaisita overcame. According to Edwin Meyer Loeb's *Kuanyama Ambo Folklore*, Nambaisita even went so far as to overthrow Kalunga and become God. Scheub spells the hero's name as Nambalisita, regarding whom Christian Rodrigues Fischgold mentions, despite his boasts of self-creation, that there is at least one version of the story in which Kalunga is actually the boy's father, which relationship might be at the root of their rivalry.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In another story, a girl called Nehova, &quot;who belonged to a tribe of people whose women laid eggs&quot;, was abducted by a king who killed her brother and married her. When she laid eggs, the king broke them, thinking they were being laid in her hut by a hen. Nehova then concealed the next egg she laid on top of her corn granary. Many days later, when the king left with his household and all his wives for a feast in a different homestead, she stayed behind, knowing that the hatching time was at hand. The boy who hatched from the egg immediately went on to resurrect his uncle. When the king returned home, his own newborn (or rather newly-hatched) son killed him, and the deceased ruler became an evil spirit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Tibetan Heroes, Demons &amp; Deities**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Epic of Gesar Khan is of great importance in Tibet but also exists in Mongolian, Buryat, Balti and Ladakhi versions. In one of the numerous variants of the story, the Gesar is the son of a divinity named As Kenzo, sired upon a Nāga princess called Dzeden. The Nāgas are a race of subterranean underwater snake-people, making Dzeden something like a serpentine mermaid. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Her son Gesar is also the incarnation of a bodhisattva named Thubpa Gawa. She becomes pregnant with him when As Kenzo one day appears to her and gives her a drink of holy water impressed with the reflection of Thubpa Gawa's face. A short while thereafter, as narrated in *The Superhuman Life of Gesar of Ling*, by Alexandra David-Néel &amp; Lama Yongden:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [O]ut of a white vein, which opened on the top of her head, came a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; white egg marked with three spots that resembled three eyes...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; A little while later it broke of itself, and from it emerged a male&#xD;&#xA;&gt; child with dark skin, the colour of beer. He had three eyes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dzeden is too tripped out by the strangeness of how the child and its egg had come about, and she uses her thumb to put one of the babies eyes out. This child, who was already talking before his egg came out of his mother's head, then goes on to have adventures shortly thereafter, eventually becoming a great conqueror of the surrounding regions. Like the Korean Yuhwa, Dzeden also lives a human life. Her people the Nāgas are also shape-shifters, and thus she dwells in disguise as a peasant girl named Gongmo, in which form she raises her son.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Naga Kanya][8]][8]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Mandalas.Life *Tibetan Statue of Naga Kanya*&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In another story, the violence demon Tsi Mar, or Tsiu Marpo, hatches from a red egg of blood, laid  by a flesh-eating demoness called Dongmarma, the consort of the savage demon lord Lekpa.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also a Buddhist story about a pair of deities, brother and sister, whose parents, a man named Nujin Zangki Ralpachen and his wife Sinmo Dragi Ralpachen, had produced them from a pair of eggs. For the whole story, see the Himalayan Art Resources article &quot;[Begtse Chen (Buddhist Protector)](https://www.himalayanart.org/items/484),&quot; particularly the section `The History of the Protector Deity Begtse`.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And Back Around to Ancient Greece&#xD;&#xA;------------------  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Molione and Her Twin Sons**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As aforementioned, there is a very close Greek parallel to the story of the union of Leda and Zeus. Leda's cousin Molus had a daughter named Molione, who in turn had twin sons, Eurytus and Cteatus, who, from their mother, are also called the Molionids. From  Molione's husband Actor, these brothers were also called Actorides although it was claimed that their real father was the sea-god Poseidon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Athenaeus' *Deipnosophistae*, the Molionids were hatched from a silver egg. According to Theoi.com, their mother &quot;was seduced by the god Poseidon in the guise of a bird.&quot; I have not found any ancient source which explicitly says that, so perhaps it is merely that website's interpretation, albeit not an unreasonable one. Poseidon does undoubtedly mate with Medusa in the form of a bird in Ovid's *Metamorphoses*, which is supposed to explain how their son, the winged horse Pegasus, comes to have the form that he does. Pegasus's birth itself *is* fairly unconventional, but no mention of an egg appears in accounts thereof. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Presumably Molione is the one who laid this silver egg, and Poseidon becoming a bird is supposed to explain how an apparently regular, garden-variety mortal like her ends up laying an egg instead of giving birth. The closest that Molione seems to have been in terms of possessing biological divinity is that her father Molus was a son of the war-god Ares. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Thyestes' Sister**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Among Helen's in-laws, her husband Menelaus had an uncle named Thyestes. The Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology cites the *Lexicon* of Hesychius of Alexandria, and Tzetzes' commentary on Lycophron's *Alexandra*, as the sources for an obscure story in which Thyestes has a sister named Daeta (or Daeto) by whom he becomes the father of a certain Enorches. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For some unexplained reason, Enorches was hatched from an egg. As with Molione, there does not seem to be anything special about Daeta that would cause her to give rise to offspring by egg-laying. Assuming both of her parents were the same as those of Thyestes, then her closest connection to the gods would be her great-grandfathers Zeus, Ares and Atlas, a pedigree she would share with numerous other ordinary mortals.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Primaeval Night: Grandmother of the Birds**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Aristophanes' play the *Ornithes* (&quot;Birds&quot;), the flying creatures therein, being the title characters of this production, boast of how much more ancient they are even than the Olympian deities. A Chorus of them narrates their origin, telling us that &quot;At the beginning,&quot; before the Earth, the Air and the Sky existed, &quot;there was only Chaos [the Void], Nyx [Night], dark Erebus [Mists of Darkness], and spacious Tartarus [the Abyss].&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Firstly, black-winged Nyx laid a wind-egg in the bosom of the unending&#xD;&#xA;&gt; depths of Erebus, and from this, after Seasons rolled around,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sprang the graceful Eros, on his back the glitter of his golden wings, swirling like&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the whirlwinds of the tempest. In broad Tartarus, he mated with dark&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the first to glimpse the light.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the poetic chant called the *Kumulipo*, one of several couples born of the primordial darkness are named Po’el’ele, the personification of the darkness of night, and Pohaha, the personification of the darkness just before dawn. These become the parents of a few different kinds of insects and they also produce an egg from which the first birds hatch.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In an Egyptian creation myth, the sun-god Re first appears as &quot;the bird of light,&quot; dispelling the primaeval darkness in the form of the first sunrise after hatching from an egg laid by a celestial goose, or otherwise by an ibis. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Ancient Egyptian Goose][9]][9]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Ptolemaic Egyptian Goose, Walters Art Museum&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/NmTYA.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/pvVLP.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Sf4m9.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/KmB9q.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/wCagd.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/toJGL.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/1A3Wq.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ZXqWc.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Gb6s0.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23157" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7631" RevisionGUID="d48f490c-156f-40bc-95c3-aae33a9a0d71" CreationDate="2020-09-06T17:43:18.210" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected spelling, fixed grammar, improved formatting &amp; tweaked several details" Text="Yes. A really close fit, fulfilling all of your criteria in one narrative is the origin of a Burmese king called Pyusawhti, who is hatched from a dragon's egg and raised by peasants. Pyusawhti has a sister, hatched from a different egg, but who grows up separately from him. [*For the whole story, see the section* `A Dragon Princess and the Kingdoms of Burma` *below.*]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Numerous other stories bear similar elements, but none correspond quite as closely to your list of requirements.  Another Greek tale parallels Leda's specifically in the versions thereof in which there is no goddess involved and Leda herself is the one said to have laid an egg (or two) after consorting with Zeus. [*See the section* `Molione and Her Twin Sons` *below.*] There is at least one Inca parallel to these Greek myths. [*See* `A Quintuple Deity, &amp; Twin Gods, Among the Inca` *below.*] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Alternatively, in some other South East Asian narratives, there are divinities who lay eggs from which heroes hatch but then these children are raised by their own parents and not by humans. Yet a different motif occurs in an Inca creation myth in which the sun-god sends to his son Vichama three eggs, each made of a different metal, out of which society's different strata are hatched .  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Very similarly, in the Nuhiño, &quot;Earth Story,&quot; of the Jivaro of Ecuador and Peru: Chingaso, the wife of the creator-god Kumpara, gives to her son Etsa (the Sun) and to Etsa's wife Nantu (the Moon) an egg from which the first human woman, Mika, hatches. The birds and animals of the forests are later produced from other eggs given to Nantu by Chingaso. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On pp. 36-37 of her *Thematic Guide to World Mythology*, Lorena Stookey says that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;In a tale from the Admiralty Island... people are born from the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eggs laid by the World Turtle, and many similar stories can be found&#xD;&#xA;&gt; throughout Polynesia. In Tibet, where egg myths abound, some of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; myths recount the origins of different orders of people. One myth, for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; instance, tells how the water spirits from four original eggs produce&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the classes of people who make up Tibet's social order. From the water&#xD;&#xA;&gt; spirit of a golden egg came those who are kings, and those who are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; servants came from a turquoise egg. An iron egg produces religious&#xD;&#xA;&gt; leaders or holy men, and social outcasts come from a bronze egg. In&#xD;&#xA;&gt; similar fashion, another myth tells how Tibet's six traditional clans&#xD;&#xA;&gt; originate in six yellow eggs that are carefully cracked open by a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; blacksmith sent by the spirits. According to this tale, two great&#xD;&#xA;&gt; birds lay eighteen primal eggs that are yellow, blue, and white, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; colors of the earth, sea and sky. The clans of people emerge from the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; six earth-colored eggs after a blacksmith from the gods cracks open&#xD;&#xA;&gt; six white eggs and a smith from the water spirits opens six blue&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eggs.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As with Pyusawhti's origin, there are also Central and South American myths in which semidivine heroes (often twins) are born from an egg (or a pair of eggs) which are found by a woman or by a married couple (typically peasants) who then raise the heroes hatched from the eggs. Sometimes the source of the eggs is implied to be divine providence but generally mysterious so that it is unclear if the eggs were ever even laid by anyone or rather perhaps created spontaneously. [*But see also* `The Moon's Sister and Her Descent into the Orinoco` *below.*]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A virtually universal phenomenon is a creation myth in which the first god or the first man (often these categories amount to the same thing) hatches from an egg which then becomes the universe; or that this deity fashions the world into an egg-shaped structure; or a combination of these two events occurs. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sometimes the egg is laid by a gigantic bird, but this creature is also mysterious in the sense that, while it—or rather *she*—might essentially be the mother of a god, she is not necessarily considered to be divine herself, and this is the last occasion in which she features as a character in the mythical chronology.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A notable exception comes from a Greek myth in which Nemesis's mother Nyx—whom the *Funk &amp; Wagnalls Standard Dictionary of Folklore, Mythology and Legend* interprets as the primordial cosmic bird—becomes the first mother after producing a god through an egg which she has laid. [*Further details below under* `Primaeval Night: Grandmother of the Birds`.] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his book *Creation Myths of the World*, David Adams Leeming mentions that the Iban Dayak of Borneo have a story in which two immense birds, named Ara and Irik, &quot;floated on the primordial waters and produced two giant eggs that became the heavens and Earth.&quot; Leeming also refers to these birds as &quot;creator gods&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**On the Greater Sunda Islands**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most variations of the creation myth of the Toba Batak of Sumatra Island start off with the chief deity, called Mulajadi Nabolon, dwelling in the uppermost level of the universe together with a few animals, including some birds. One of these creatures is a blue chicken with an iron beak and shiny, braceleted copper claws, named Manuk-Manuk Hulambujati. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This chicken laid three eggs which it at first complained to Mulajadi Nabolon were too big for it to incubate. After receiving assistance and specific instructions, however, the eggs eventually hatched, producing offspring who were, at the same time, the first men as well as the gods who organised the rest of the universe and who became the ancestors of the human race. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of these divine men, who are also regarded as the sons of Mulajadi Nabolon, is named Batara Guru, who features in a story from the neighbouring island of Java, in which he and his two brothers were produced from a single egg laid by their mother, a goddess called Dewi Rekatawati, or Dewi Rakti, who was married to a god named Sang Hyang Tunggal. The Javanese Batara Guru, also called Sang Hyang Manikmaya, was the lastborn of his brothers, having emerged from the egg's yolk while the elder two came, respectively from the eggshell and the egg-white. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Batara Guru from Sumatra had a daughter named Si Boru Deak Parujar, whose first child, according to Wikipedia, was egg-shaped, &quot;not similar at all to humans&quot;. On the instructions of her grandfather Mulajadi Nabolon, Si Boru Deak Parujar and her husband buried this child and &quot;out of it came plants that spread on the surface of the earth.&quot;    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**A Quintuple Deity, &amp; Twin Gods, Among the Inca**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the Huarochirí Manuscript, a storm-god named Pariacaca existed in the form of five men who were initially falcons which hatched from five different falcon eggs. Bizarrely, they are said, while they were yet still eggs, to have had a son, namely the hero Huatya Curi. The Manuscript also reports the idea that this Pariacaca is the son of the god Cuniraya Viracocha. It is not explained whether Cuniraya Viracocha may have mated with a falcon (or something?) to engender such progeny. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Mt Pariacaca][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Mt Pariacaca, May 2004, by Cordillera Pariacaca&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Handbook of Inca Mythology*, Paul R. Steele &amp; Catherine J. Allen write the following:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;The Augustinians were told that a creator deity named Atajugu&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lived in the sky. He divided himself into three persons with two&#xD;&#xA;&gt; servants. He sent to earth a double, his servant called Guamansuri,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; who disguised his divinity by working in the fields of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Guachemines, the indigenous group in the area. Like the Andean deities&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Viracocha and Cuniraya Viracocha, Guamansuri adopted the disguise of a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; poor man. He then made a Guachemines woman called Cautaguan pregnant,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and was subsequently burned alive for this act. Cautaguan also died&#xD;&#xA;&gt; while giving birth to two eggs. The eggs rested on a dunghill, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eventually two brothers, Catequil and Piguerao, emerged. They revived&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their mother and then began to kill the Guachemines. Those who escaped&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were forced to flee to lower warmer lands toward the coast, and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; depopulated region was filled with a new generation of people. In&#xD;&#xA;&gt; expelling the Guachemines, Piguerao and Catequil used the weapons&#xD;&#xA;&gt; associated with the Andean Lightning deity, who created atmospheric&#xD;&#xA;&gt; effects by firing sling stones.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The account also seems to imply that Cautaguan eventually became a mountain-goddess called Mamacatequil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Unconventional Midwifery in Mongoland**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A sort of reverse version of what you're asking about takes place in a story from the Democratic Republic of Congo. The Mongo hero Bokele was hatched from an egg. In Ntomba, one of the dialects of the Mongo language, according to *African Mythology: A to Z*, a book by Patricia Ann Lynch &amp; Jeremy Roberts, the hero's name is Mokele, whose father, the chief of the Mongo people, was also &quot;the first male human&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In another book, *The Lianja Epic*, by Mubima Maneniang', this early chieftain is called Waku-Waku, while, according to *A Dictionary of African Mythology: The Mythmaker as Storyteller*, by Harold Scheub, his name was Wai, and his many wives all become pregnant at the same time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his book *African Myths of Origin*, Stephen Belcher tells us that Bokele's father went off on a trip, &quot;ordering that all his wives must have children upon his return&quot;. The favourite wife &quot;showed no signs of pregnancy until she was helped by a forest spirit who drew the egg from her and hatched it.&quot; In Lynch &amp; Roberts' account, while his father was out hunting,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mokele was born from an egg that a sympathetic river goddess implanted&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in his mother’s belly. The baby would not grow in the mother’s belly,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; so the river goddess removed it and hatched it herself. The next day,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; she presented the baby boy to the mother but took him home again for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the night. Mokele grew into the size of a four-year-old boy  the next&#xD;&#xA;&gt; day. The river goddess allowed him to go home with his mother but&#xD;&#xA;&gt; warned her to wait a few more days until she showed him to anyone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Within a few days the hero was full grown, had been dramatically introduced to his father, and was off on a mission to buy sunlight from a neighbouring rival community.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Moon's Sister and Her Descent into the Orinoco**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Watunna*, the creation cycle of the So'to of Venezuela, tells us that, in the sky, the creator Wanadi kept a massive stone egg which was full of his unborn people, whom he wished to eventually live on the earth. According to Mineke Schipper, in *Humanity's End as a New Beginning: World Disasters in Myths*, &quot;This egg, called Huehanna, was round like a ball, huge and hollow, its shell thick, hard and heavy&quot; and the egg was abuzz with the laughter, singing and dancing of the people inside it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nuna, the moon, who was villainous and always hungry, stole Huehanna intending to devour it, but Nuna's young sister Frimene, finding the egg to be beautiful, and with a view to rescuing its contents, hid Huehanna in her vagina, telling herself that she would become the mother of the people within it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A tussle in the night, in which Nuna unsuccessfully tried to pull Huehanna out of his sister, resulted in the first menstrual bleeding. Once Frimene confirmed that it was indeed Nuna who had accosted her under the cover of darkness, she fled from his house and into the jungle, running until she reached the newborn Uriñaku (Orinoco). Plunging herself into the river, she transformed into Huiio, the Great Snake, whereupon she built herself a house at the bottom of the rapids.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Orinoco][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Frimene had been betrothed to Wanadi's brother Müdo, whom Wanadi commissioned to lure the Great Snake out of the water so that he could retrieve his egg from her. Müdo gathered the first-ever hunting party, which pursued Huiio along the river and shot her dead with arrows. Huehanna, which Huiio had released from her grasp as she was dying, burst open against a large rock in the water. The people inside turned into fish eggs, which, upon hatching, produced fish and the other animals which live in rivers and lakes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Two of the fish-eggs remained intact. A jaguar named Manuwa, whose wife was a toad called Kawao, wished to keep these eggs to eat later, and instructed Kawao to take them home, although *she* rather wanted to hatch children to rear from them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The twin brothers Shikiemona and Iureke emerged from the eggs and rapidly grew into unruly, childlike men, who not only raised a terrible ruckus, shouting, screaming and fighting, but also frequently changed themselves into different animals, such as fish, crickets and cockroaches, playing pranks on people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After visiting Huiio's underwater house in the form of fish, Shikiemona and Iureke discovered their true origin when Huiio appeared to them in a dream. They avenged her death by flooding the entire earth. The rainbow, which was formed from Huiio's crown of feathers, remained as a memorial of her, and after the Great Water subsided, Wanadi decided to make other people. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Huiio herself, in actuality, was too powerful to die, and it is merely her body which remained on earth, while she went on to dwell &quot;in the highest Heaven, in Lake Akuena&quot;, whose mistress she became, presiding over eternal life.         &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Mexican Maize Heroes and Founder-Kings**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a Nahua myth in which an old childless couple finds a pair of large chicken eggs and they decide to eat one while giving the other to their hen to hatch. After a few days a boy emerges from the remaining egg, causing the couple to lament that they had probably eaten his sister who would have hatched from the first egg. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As narrated in their book *A Land Without Gods: Process Theory, Maldevelopment and the Mexican Nahuas*, Jacques M. Chevalier &amp; Daniel Buckles conclude the story with: &quot;Moreover, they didn't know who the little boy was.&quot; He was Sintiopiltsin, &quot;the venerable son-god-ear-of-corn&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kondoy, the king who founded the Mixe nation, was also hatched from an egg found by an old peasant couple who had no children. After having their turkey hatch the egg, they raised the boy that emerged therefrom as their own.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his book *Art and Myth of the Ancient Maya*, Oswaldo Chinchilla Mazariegos reports that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The father of Homshuk, the Popoluca maize hero, died in a distant&#xD;&#xA;&gt; place—in war, according to a version from Soteapan, Veracruz—and his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mother ground the baby, tired of his ceaseless crying... Homshuk&#xD;&#xA;&gt; somehow survived, and according to some versions took the shape of an&#xD;&#xA;&gt; egg, which was found by an old cannibal woman. Her husband wanted to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eat the egg, but she decided to raise him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Conflict then arose between Homshuk and his adoptive parents, the man still trying to eat him at first, and eventually the maize hero managed to kill the couple through trickery, continuing his adventures thereafter.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Homshuk][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a Yucatec story, an old witch, desirous of a child, prays to the god Chic Chan, who, according to Emese Fromm's article &quot;The Pyramid of the Magician: Ancient Maya Ruins in Uxmal,&quot; was &quot;one of the four rain serpents, or rain gods&quot; who were representations of the god Chac. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;One night she had a dream where this god told her to look for a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; turtle egg by the nearby cenote, take it home and wait for it to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hatch. In the morning, the old woman did what the god told her and she&#xD;&#xA;&gt; found a large, green turtle egg at the cenote.&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;She took it to her home, wrapped it in cotton and sat it in a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; corner of her hut. She cared for it day after day, keeping it warm,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; talking to it, singing to it. A few months later, the egg cracked and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a tiny baby boy stepped out.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Yucatan Times article &quot;Uxmal Yucatan: The Legend of the Dwarf&quot; says that the witch named the boy Saiyawincoob and that &quot;Time passed but the child remained the same size, the woman noticed that his voice changed and his beard began to grow, so she discovered that he was a dwarf.&quot; In *Xbalanque's Marriage: A Commentary on the Q‘eqchi‘ Myth of Sun and Moon*, Hyacinthus Edwinus Maria Braakhuis says that the dwarf eventually took on the name Ez. He is renowned for having magically built the famous pyramid of Uxmal in one day, thereafter becoming the city's king.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Uxmal Magician's Temple][4]][4]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Pyramid of the Magician, 25 November 2009, by runt35 on Panoramio&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Vietnam's Children of the Dragon and Grandchildren of the Fairy**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lạc Long Quân, the &quot;Dragon Lord of Lạc,&quot; who had emerged from the sea, was the son of a mountain god and, according to Wikipedia, &quot;the dragon goddess that rules the sky and the ocean.&quot; Lạc Long Quân married Âu Cơ, an immortal mountain fairy who often took the form of a bird. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After their union, Âu Cơ gave birth to an egg sac containing a hundred eggs, from which, seven days later, hatch their one hundred sons who go on to become the ancestors of the Vietnamese. Lạc Long Quân is quoted by Wikipedia as having said to his wife, after the hatching:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;I am a descendant of the Dragon, you are [a] descendant of the Fairy,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fire and water cannot live together in harmony.&quot; The two of them then&#xD;&#xA;&gt; divided their children. Fifty sons followed their mother to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mountainous north, the other fifty followed their father to live in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the south; these children are ancestor[s] of Bách Việt. The oldest&#xD;&#xA;&gt; brother followed Âu Cơ to Phong Châu (Phú Thọ), became Quân's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; successor and ruled as Hung King.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Thủ Dầu Một City][5]][5]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;City of Thủ Dầu Một, uploaded to Wikimapia.org by thachhan120282, c. 2011&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Korea's Hero Arisen from a Fallen Goddess**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;King Dongmyeong, who founded Goguryeo, the northernmost of the Three Kingdoms of Korea, was originally called Jumong. In one version of her adventures, his mother, the goddess Yuhwa, is disowned by her father and exiled into a mortal existence. Once she loses her divinity, upon being exposed to sunlight, she lays an egg, from which Jumong hatches. In his book *Asian Mythologies*, Yves Bonnefoy spells the hero's names as *Tongmyǒng* and *Čumong*, and his mother's name as *Ryuhwa*, narrating their story as follows on pp. 296-297. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;The *Wei chou* (chap. C) relates that the eldest daughter of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; deity of the waters was bathing in a spot called The Heart of the Bear&#xD;&#xA;&gt; when she was surprised by Hämosu, her future husband. The birth of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Čumong resulted from this encounter.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;&quot;In the capital of Eastern Fouyou, a man appeared, it is not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; known from where, who said his name was Hämosu, and who claimed to be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the son of the Heavenly Emperor who had to come to found a state.&quot; The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; daughter of the deity of the waters explained how she came to know the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; son of the god of the sky: &quot;I saw the man. After he had lured me into&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a house located at the spot called the Heart of the Bear ... he made&#xD;&#xA;&gt; me commit adultery with him. After that, he left and never&#xD;&#xA;&gt; returned.&quot;&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;In this way the girl conceived an egg from which Čumong emerged.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The same text says:&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; &lt;sup&gt;Ryuhwa... was shut up in a room. The light of the sun fell on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; her. Shielding her body, she avoided it, but the light of the sun&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; pursued her. After that, she conceived and gave birth to an egg. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; king (of Fouyu) ... had the egg thrown to a dog, and then to a pig,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; but neither the dog nor the pig ate it. It was abandoned on the road;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; cattle and horses avoided it. Later, it was left in a field; the birds&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; covered it with their wings. The king ... tried to break it, but&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; without success. He gave it back to the woman (who &quot;gave birth&quot;). She&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; wrapped up the egg and put it in a warm place. A boy broke its shell&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; and emerged from it.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Tomb of King Tongmyong][6]][6]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Tomb of King Tongmyong, from Persephone's Blog, on PersephoneTravels.com&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**A Dragon Princess and the Kingdoms of Burma**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pyusawhti (or Pyuminhti) was an early ruler of Pagan (now called Bagan), the Wikipedia article on him saying:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;The pre-*Hmannan* Burmese chronicles claim that Pyusawhti, a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; descendant of a solar spirit (နေမင်းသား) and a dragon princess&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (နဂါးမင်းသမီး ဇံသီး), founded Pagan in 167/168 CE, and hence the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Burmese monarchy. The dragon princess, granddaughter of the Dragon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Emperor Kala Naga, was impregnated by the solar spirit who was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; visiting the earth. Out of this union, the dragon princess laid three&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eggs, all of which a hunter took away. The hunter accidentally broke&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the gold-colored egg of the three at Mogok, and the broken golden egg&#xD;&#xA;&gt; turned into numerous rubies and gems (for which the Mogok region is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; known to the present-day). The hunter then lost the remaining two eggs&#xD;&#xA;&gt; during one heavy storm. One egg, in brown color, ended up in a small&#xD;&#xA;&gt; kingdom in either northern Burma (Thindwe or Tagaung) or Yunnan, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; out came a female human princess, who later became queen of that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; kingdom. The remaining egg, in white color, drifted down the Irrawaddy&#xD;&#xA;&gt; all the way to Nyaung-U, where it was picked up by an elderly&#xD;&#xA;&gt; childless Pyu peasant couple. When the egg hatched, Pyusawhti was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; born. The Pyu couple raised him like their own son. He was then&#xD;&#xA;&gt; educated by a local monk named Yathekyaung.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Pyusawhti][7]][7]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;King Pyusawhti, 26 October 2015, by Phyo WP&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Heroes of the Ovambo**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Ovambo of Angola and Namibia tell of &quot;a good girl who married in a faraway country&quot; in what Harold Scheub seems to interpret as the beginning of time. She laid an egg several times but before long each one broke, until her mother advised her to place the next egg that she laid on top of the granary, which the girl did. When the egg hatched, a child emerged from it who named himself Nambaisita, the &quot;Self-Created&quot; One, boasting that he had made himself and that he therefore did not fall under the jurisdiction of the ruler of the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kalunga (God), who lived in an enclosure in a different neighbourhood, was annoyed by this threat to his authority, and summoned the boy to his home, where the two contended with each other in a series of challenges set by Kalunga, all of which Nambaisita overcame. According to Edwin Meyer Loeb's *Kuanyama Ambo Folklore*, Nambaisita even went so far as to overthrow Kalunga and become God. Scheub spells the hero's name as Nambalisita, regarding whom Christian Rodrigues Fischgold mentions, despite his boasts of self-creation, that there is at least one version of the story in which Kalunga is actually the boy's father, which relationship might be at the root of their rivalry.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In another story, a girl called Nehova, &quot;who belonged to a tribe of people whose women laid eggs&quot;, was abducted by a king who killed her brother and married her. When she laid eggs, the king broke them, thinking they were being laid in her hut by a hen. Nehova then concealed the next egg she laid on top of her corn granary. Many days later, when the king left with his household and all his wives for a feast in a different homestead, she stayed behind, knowing that the hatching time was at hand. The boy who hatched from the egg immediately went on to resurrect his uncle. When the king returned home, his own newborn (or rather newly-hatched) son killed him, and the deceased ruler became an evil spirit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Tibetan Heroes, Demons &amp; Deities**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Epic of Gesar Khan is of great importance in Tibet but also exists in Mongolian, Buryat, Balti and Ladakhi versions. In one of the numerous variants of the story, Gesar is the son of a divinity named As Kenzo, sired upon a Nāga princess called Dzeden. The Nāgas are a race of subterranean underwater snake-people, making Dzeden something like a serpentine mermaid. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Her son Gesar is also the incarnation of a bodhisattva named Thubpa Gawa. She becomes pregnant with him when As Kenzo one day appears to her and gives her a drink of holy water impressed with the reflection of Thubpa Gawa's face. A short while thereafter, as narrated in *The Superhuman Life of Gesar of Ling*, by Alexandra David-Néel &amp; Lama Yongden:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [O]ut of a white vein, which opened on the top of her head, came a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; white egg marked with three spots that resembled three eyes...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; A little while later it broke of itself, and from it emerged a male&#xD;&#xA;&gt; child with dark skin, the colour of beer. He had three eyes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dzeden is too tripped out by the strangeness of how the child and its egg had come about, and she uses her thumb to put one of the babies eyes out. This child, who was already talking before his egg came out of his mother's head, then goes on to have adventures shortly thereafter, eventually becoming a great conqueror of the surrounding regions. Like the Korean Yuhwa, Dzeden also lives a human life. Her people the Nāgas are also shape-shifters, and thus she dwells in disguise as a peasant girl named Gongmo, in which form she raises her son.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Naga Kanya][8]][8]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Mandalas.Life *Tibetan Statue of Naga Kanya*&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In another story, the violence demon Tsi Mar, or Tsiu Marpo, hatches from a red egg of blood, laid  by a flesh-eating demoness called Dongmarma, the consort of the savage demon lord Lekpa.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also a Buddhist story about a pair of deities, brother and sister, whose parents, a man named Nujin Zangki Ralpachen and his wife Sinmo Dragi Ralpachen, had produced them from a pair of eggs. For the whole story, see the Himalayan Art Resources article &quot;[Begtse Chen (Buddhist Protector)](https://www.himalayanart.org/items/484),&quot; particularly the section `The History of the Protector Deity Begtse`.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And Back Around to Ancient Greece&#xD;&#xA;------------------  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Molione and Her Twin Sons**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As aforementioned, there is a very close Greek parallel to the story of the union of Leda and Zeus. Leda's cousin Molus had a daughter named Molione, who in turn had twin sons, Eurytus and Cteatus, who, from their mother, are known as the Molionids. From  Molione's husband Actor, these brothers were also called Actorides although it was claimed that their real father was the sea-god Poseidon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Athenaeus' *Deipnosophistae*, the Molionids were hatched from a silver egg. According to Theoi.com, their mother &quot;was seduced by the god Poseidon in the guise of a bird.&quot; I have not found any ancient source which explicitly says that, so perhaps it is merely that website's interpretation, albeit not an unreasonable one. Poseidon does undoubtedly mate with Medusa in the form of a bird in Ovid's *Metamorphoses*, which is supposed to explain how their son, the winged horse Pegasus, comes to have the form that he does. Pegasus's birth itself *is* fairly unconventional, but no mention of an egg appears in accounts thereof. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Presumably Molione is the one who laid this silver egg, and Poseidon becoming a bird is supposed to explain how an apparently regular, garden-variety mortal like her ends up laying an egg instead of giving birth. The closest that Molione seems to have been in terms of possessing biological divinity is that her father Molus was a son of the war-god Ares. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Thyestes' Sister**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Among Helen's in-laws, her husband Menelaus had an uncle named Thyestes. The Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology cites the *Lexicon* of Hesychius of Alexandria, and Tzetzes' commentary on Lycophron's *Alexandra*, as the sources for an obscure story in which Thyestes has a sister named Daeta (or Daeto) by whom he becomes the father of a certain Enorches. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For some unexplained reason, Enorches was hatched from an egg. As with Molione, there does not seem to be anything special about Daeta that would cause her to give rise to offspring by egg-laying. Assuming both of her parents were the same as those of Thyestes, then her closest connection to the gods would be her great-grandfathers Zeus, Ares and Atlas, a pedigree she would share with numerous other ordinary mortals.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Primaeval Night: Grandmother of the Birds**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Aristophanes' play the *Ornithes* (&quot;Birds&quot;), the flying creatures therein, being the title characters of this production, boast of how much more ancient they are even than the Olympian deities. A Chorus of them narrates their origin, telling us that &quot;At the beginning,&quot; before the Earth, the Air and the Sky existed, &quot;there was only Chaos [the Void], Nyx [Night], dark Erebus [Mists of Darkness], and spacious Tartarus [the Abyss].&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Firstly, black-winged Nyx laid a wind-egg in the bosom of the unending&#xD;&#xA;&gt; depths of Erebus, and from this, after Seasons rolled around,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sprang the graceful Eros, on his back the glitter of his golden wings, swirling like&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the whirlwinds of the tempest. In broad Tartarus, he mated with dark&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the first to glimpse the light.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A striking parallel to this occurs in Hawaiian mythology. In the poetic chant called the *Kumulipo*, one of several couples born of the primordial darkness are named Po’el’ele, the personification of the darkness of night, and Pohaha, the personification of the darkness just before dawn. These become the parents of a few different kinds of insects and they also produce an egg from which the first birds hatch.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In an Egyptian creation myth, the sun-god Re first appears as &quot;the bird of light,&quot; dispelling the primaeval darkness in the form of the first sunrise after hatching from an egg laid by a celestial goose, or otherwise by an ibis. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Ancient Egyptian Goose][9]][9]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Ptolemaic Egyptian Goose, Walters Art Museum&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/NmTYA.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/pvVLP.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Sf4m9.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/KmB9q.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/wCagd.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/toJGL.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/1A3Wq.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ZXqWc.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Gb6s0.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23158" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7632" RevisionGUID="b7119388-965a-459c-9cc4-aecfecca2fb7" CreationDate="2020-09-06T19:08:06.460" UserId="5511" Text="The [Pahulu][1] gods on [Lanai][2], one of the Islands of Hawaii, were all killed by a prophet called [Kaululaau][3]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since this myth is recorded only a few centuries ago from an oral tradtion, we don't know exactly how old it is, but it is possibly from as early as the first century CE.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://wehewehe.org/gsdl2.85/cgi-bin/hdict?a=q&amp;r=1&amp;hs=1&amp;m=-1&amp;o=-1&amp;qto=4&amp;e=d-11000-00---off-0hdict--00-1----0-10-0---0---0direct-10-ED--4--textpukuielbert%252ctextmamaka-----0-1l--11-en-Zz-1---Zz-1-home-pahulu--00-3-1-00-0--4----0-0-11-00-0utfZz-8-00&amp;q=pahulu&amp;fqv=textpukuielbert%252ctextmamaka&amp;af=1&amp;fqf=ED&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanai&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://manoa.hawaii.edu/hawaiiancollection/legends/subjectsearch.php?q=Kaululaau" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23159" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7633" RevisionGUID="fea3bb91-f1a3-47e5-bf2d-ef00b77f256e" CreationDate="2020-09-07T14:49:02.983" UserId="7225" Text="I don't have a link to share, just seems to me that ancient man read the landscape and its spiritual and supernatural significance seems to pivot mostly around Dragon myths." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23160" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7633" RevisionGUID="fea3bb91-f1a3-47e5-bf2d-ef00b77f256e" CreationDate="2020-09-07T14:49:02.983" UserId="7225" Text="Are there any Dragons myths about dragons being the creators of creation? Supernatural beings -as it were - that created the landscape?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23161" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7633" RevisionGUID="fea3bb91-f1a3-47e5-bf2d-ef00b77f256e" CreationDate="2020-09-07T14:49:02.983" UserId="7225" Text="|mythical-creatures|origins|creation|dragons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23163" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7635" RevisionGUID="36a66d3f-6b03-439d-aa55-ab18aff52240" CreationDate="2020-09-07T21:26:04.607" UserId="7117" Text="**Tiamat:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Tiamat][1] is a Mesopotamian creator goddess who, along with her mate [Apsu][2] represent the waters and together give birth to the gods. After the gods murder Apsu to gain power, Tiamat (portrayed as a sea dragon) gives birth to the first dragons and makes war on the gods in revenge. When she is killed by [Marduk][3] (sometimes also described as a dragon or being served by dragons), the heaven and Earth are made from Tiamat's body.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat#:~:text=In%20the%20religion%20of%20ancient,the%20chaos%20of%20primordial%20creation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[2]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abzu&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[3]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marduk" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23164" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2723" RevisionGUID="c254219b-4135-4ae8-b2ae-df1d21458f3d" CreationDate="2020-09-08T20:04:35.600" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23165" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7625" RevisionGUID="745100be-2429-4578-9e77-1e5c9060db64" CreationDate="2020-09-10T13:19:08.343" UserId="5594" Comment="deleted 141 characters in body" Text="I think something with Heracles, but I am unsure." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23166" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7636" RevisionGUID="3b7c6d16-abd9-4905-81a9-0abeedc5dfe8" CreationDate="2020-09-10T18:41:06.480" UserId="7237" Text="Someone told me about a Greek myth about a woman/man who falsely admits to killing his/her lover? Is there such a myth? If so, what is it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23167" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7636" RevisionGUID="3b7c6d16-abd9-4905-81a9-0abeedc5dfe8" CreationDate="2020-09-10T18:41:06.480" UserId="7237" Text="Which Greek myth tells the story of a woman/man who falsely admits to killing his/her lover?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23168" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7636" RevisionGUID="3b7c6d16-abd9-4905-81a9-0abeedc5dfe8" CreationDate="2020-09-10T18:41:06.480" UserId="7237" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23177" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5857" RevisionGUID="9cf67437-3a5a-4178-b7cf-681a5bc700ae" CreationDate="2020-09-14T01:07:40.783" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23178" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4873" RevisionGUID="3a5a202f-1ad3-4eb9-ae20-40f97a033cf6" CreationDate="2020-09-14T17:03:55.353" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23179" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7640" RevisionGUID="402f701f-9631-4e7f-b782-88574310125d" CreationDate="2020-09-15T10:41:13.793" UserId="7247" Text="I'm looking for figures of important 'watchers'/'guardians'. Actually I don't know the right word, but it doesn't need to be like a 'security-guardian', who doesn't let someone get through (i.e. not like Kerberos or the like). I am thinking more of a figure who has a relatively boring but (very!) important task of making sure that &quot;something keeps running smoothly&quot;. A figure that just has to watch over some kind of process and he doesn't do a lot more than that. But if something goes wrong with the process, he has to alert, inform immediately or maybe even take some measures. He might even (but doesn't need to) have been damned to take care.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there some kind of stereotypical figure for this kind of task? I am interested in such a figure from all/any kind of mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If possible it should embody the idea of letting others 'sleep' or not needing to worry about that process, because that figure is taking care.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would be very thankful for any kind of ideas of what that figure could be." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23180" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7640" RevisionGUID="402f701f-9631-4e7f-b782-88574310125d" CreationDate="2020-09-15T10:41:13.793" UserId="7247" Text="Important 'watchers', 'watchdogs' or 'guardians of a process'" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23181" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7640" RevisionGUID="402f701f-9631-4e7f-b782-88574310125d" CreationDate="2020-09-15T10:41:13.793" UserId="7247" Text="|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23182" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4874" RevisionGUID="756fa031-88b8-43ea-8f8c-9649deb568f3" CreationDate="2020-09-16T03:00:55.090" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23183" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7641" RevisionGUID="837d74c5-b6a2-4401-90a5-b3788129ec39" CreationDate="2020-09-16T13:09:46.260" UserId="7070" Text="The first that comes to mind for me is Heimdall. He was a Norse god whose job was to watch over the Nine Realms and make sure nothing to crazy was happening. He was the gatekeeper of Asgard and he was in charge of who came over the Bifrost. He also had this horn that he was supposed to blow when Ragnarok was about to begin. He shows up in a lot of myths where one of the gods needs to see very far into the Nine Realms. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for other creatures, there's obviously the Sphinx, like from *Oedipus Rex* but that doesn't really seem to be what you are after. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23184" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7640" RevisionGUID="1f8169d0-474c-4136-b42c-84fd201d3ed3" CreationDate="2020-09-16T14:34:18.243" UserId="7247" Comment="added 389 characters in body" Text="I'm looking for figures of important 'watchers'/'guardians'. Actually I don't know the right word, but it doesn't need to be like a 'security-guardian', who doesn't let someone get through (i.e. not like Kerberos or the like). I am thinking more of a figure who has a relatively boring but (very!) important task of making sure that &quot;something keeps running smoothly&quot; and doesn't protect or safe said thing, but rather alerts and gives notice. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A figure that just has to watch over some kind of process and he doesn't do a lot more than that. But if something goes wrong with the process, he has to alert, inform immediately.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there some kind of stereotypical figure for this kind of task? I am interested in such a figure from all/any kind of mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If possible it should embody the idea of letting others 'sleep' or not needing to worry about that process, because that figure is taking care.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would be very thankful for any kind of ideas of what that figure could be.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In one question:&#xD;&#xA;&quot;**What are some names of mythological or legendary figures that watch out and do alert/inform as soon something suspicious or bad happens? The a figure that is basically equivalent to the task of a watcher in a watchtower**&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(The watcher in the watchtower will not hold an army - he might not even carry arms. But he has to _watch out_ for bad things and alert others as soon as something happens.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For instance there might be someone who kept a bird or something to do exactly this task? Nothing more than make noise when someone comes close?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23185" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7640" RevisionGUID="2df94cba-4810-455c-bc63-3242f369d3b2" CreationDate="2020-09-16T14:45:42.580" UserId="7247" Comment="added 84 characters in body" Text="I'm looking for figures of important 'watchers'/'guardians'. Actually I don't know the right word, but it doesn't need to be like a 'security-guardian', who doesn't let someone get through (i.e. not like Kerberos or the like). I am thinking more of a figure who has a relatively boring but (very!) important task of making sure that &quot;something keeps running smoothly&quot; and doesn't protect or safe said thing, but rather alerts and gives notice. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A figure that just has to watch over some kind of process and he doesn't do a lot more than that. But if something goes wrong with the process, he has to alert, inform immediately.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there some kind of stereotypical figure for this kind of task? I am interested in such a figure from all/any kind of mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If possible it should embody the idea of letting others 'sleep' or not needing to worry about that process, because that figure is taking care.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would be very thankful for any kind of ideas of what that figure could be.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In one question:&#xD;&#xA;&quot;**What are some names of mythological or legendary figures that watch out and do alert/inform as soon something suspicious or bad happens? The a figure that is basically equivalent to the task of a watcher in a watchtower**&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The watcher in the watchtower will not hold an army - he might not even carry arms. But he has to _watch out_ for bad things and alert others as soon as something happens. The figure or name might even be the name of an important mythical watchtower itself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For instance there might be someone who kept a bird or something to do exactly this task? Nothing more than make noise when someone comes close?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23186" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7642" RevisionGUID="43070d13-036b-4ac6-9764-7439d0f2c62b" CreationDate="2020-09-16T15:02:23.637" UserId="7252" Text="I'd like to know what is the earliest reference for Black Dogs such as Black Shuck, Hairy Jack, Barghest, etc. Is there anything before the 1577 Black Shuck of Blythburgh in worldwide folklore? And are there any recent &quot;sightings&quot; or articles referring to it? I need to precise that I don't mean in ancient mythology as in Cerberus or Geri and Freki, but more like in legends and folklore worldwide." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23187" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7642" RevisionGUID="43070d13-036b-4ac6-9764-7439d0f2c62b" CreationDate="2020-09-16T15:02:23.637" UserId="7252" Text="What are the earliest and latest reference of black dogs apparitions in folklore?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23188" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7642" RevisionGUID="43070d13-036b-4ac6-9764-7439d0f2c62b" CreationDate="2020-09-16T15:02:23.637" UserId="7252" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23189" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6316" RevisionGUID="a6da113b-e31e-4114-8af6-e81b783a52d3" CreationDate="2020-09-16T18:03:10.283" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23191" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7643" RevisionGUID="532c8970-4fb2-4877-9358-d6bd59911983" CreationDate="2020-09-18T10:47:35.070" UserId="7256" Text="Some months ago I answered a [question over on the Literature SE][1]. The question was about a Krazy Kat strip from 1936.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the cartoon, Offisa Pupp takes a nap; he dreams that he meets Krazy and then catches Ignatz Mouse. Offisa Pupp and Ignatz start wrestling each other, with Krazy looking on and commenting on the action. The language in Krazy Kat is idiosyncratic and the question seeks elucidation on some of the strip’s text. Unfortunately there was no link to the actual strip and I’ve been unable to find a copy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I was able to answer almost all of the question after working out that Krazy’s commentary is 'crying' names of classical poses being struck by exhibition bodybuilders. (My answer on LitSE explains in more detail). https://literature.stackexchange.com/q/11353/333 Offisa Pupp's comments seem related to the poses, although we were not able to connect all the dots there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There were references to Hercules, Horatius at the Bridge, Ajax defying the thunderbolts etc. However, there was one which completely stumped us all:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Krazy: Cyklops destroyin' the tutty-nine dumb dimmins&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pupp: Skol&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems as though it should be straightforward, ‘Cyclops destroying the 39 dumb demons’, but I can’t find a myth that it maps to. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I initially assumed it related to Polyphemus; Odysseus fools him with the aid of strong wine, hence Pupp's response 'Skol', a toast. However that still doesn't get us to 39 demons being destroyed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have begun to wonder if ‘tutty-nine’ isn’t ‘39’ but some adjective that I can’t place, along the lines of eg saturine or something.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Someone suggested the Telkhines, but I still couldn’t match it convincingly, or persuade myself that ‘Tutty-nine’ might be cognate with ‘Telkhines’.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can anyone here suggest any instances of Cyclops involvement in mas demon destruction? I would love to fill that gap in the answer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://literature.stackexchange.com/questions/11353/krazy-language-in-krazy-kat-25-july-1936" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23192" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7643" RevisionGUID="532c8970-4fb2-4877-9358-d6bd59911983" CreationDate="2020-09-18T10:47:35.070" UserId="7256" Text="Identifying Greco-Roman Mythology reference in Krazy Kat Kartoon" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23193" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7643" RevisionGUID="532c8970-4fb2-4877-9358-d6bd59911983" CreationDate="2020-09-18T10:47:35.070" UserId="7256" Text="|greek|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23194" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7644" RevisionGUID="21ba0ac4-cbd7-49bf-b3b9-6a7910f89fe5" CreationDate="2020-09-18T12:56:46.903" UserId="7070" Text="The best thought I can come up with is that this may be some reference to the Olympians vs. the Titans. Partway through the war, the aid of the Cyclopes and the Hekatonkeries was enlisted by Zeus since they also had a bone to pick with the Titans. They had been locked away in Tartarus for years because Ouranos, their father, thought they were too ugly. The Titans continued this policy, so the Cyclopes where all too happy to join up with Zeus. Maybe while they were in Tartarus they fought some demons? I'm not sure, but this is what seems to make the most sense to me. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23196" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="7642" RevisionGUID="1497b296-edc7-4cb2-8be4-650fcb6d0783" CreationDate="2020-09-21T07:25:27.727" UserId="7232" Comment="fixed apparent typo" Text="What are the earliest and latest reference of black dog apparitions in folklore?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23197" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="7642" RevisionGUID="1497b296-edc7-4cb2-8be4-650fcb6d0783" CreationDate="2020-09-21T07:25:27.727" Comment="Proposed by 7232 approved by 7252 edit id of 1833" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23204" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3194" RevisionGUID="4d0953eb-8de7-478f-a91c-0e2cb8601a2d" CreationDate="2020-09-23T20:06:20.660" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23205" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5312" RevisionGUID="7cb42e6e-ac72-4c24-a0ce-b2f4164f647d" CreationDate="2020-09-24T06:03:55.440" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23206" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4860" RevisionGUID="4f0d8185-4200-41da-8e00-1a8503f020d7" CreationDate="2020-09-24T13:05:45.677" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23207" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="7545" RevisionGUID="2c51b233-d27b-421e-9085-8941b66bcae7" CreationDate="2020-09-25T14:33:47.440" UserId="6512" Comment="107" />
  <row Id="23208" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7645" RevisionGUID="9afbf786-6293-4f61-9f73-fa1c711e7ab7" CreationDate="2020-09-25T19:17:45.283" UserId="5726" Text="Since demigods are allowed I propose [Herakles][1] (accidentally) killing Kheirôn/Chiron.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Kheirôn][2] was the immortal son of the Titan [Kronos][3] and therefore a half-brother of [Zeus][4].&#xD;&#xA;When Herakles was battling members of the Kentauroi/Centaurs of Mount Pholoe he accidentally wounded Kheirôn. The problem was that the arrow that pierced Kheirôns was poisoned with Hydra venom and as such was incurable. Suffering unbearable pain Kheirôn voluntarily relinquished his immortality. After relinquishing his immortality Zeus turned  Kheirôn into the constellation Centaurus or Sagittarius. There is some disagreement which of the constellations represents Kheirôn. Eratosthenes identified the Archer not as a centaur but as the satyr [Crotus][5], son of [Pan][6], who Greeks credited with the invention of archery.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  &quot;Herakles (Heracles) turned back [the Kentauroi (Centaurs) of Mount Pholoe] with a volley of fire-brands; he sent arrows after the others and chased them as far as Malea. There they took refuge with Kheiron (Chiron), who, after the Lapithai (Lapiths) had driven him from Mount Pelion, settled on Malea. Herakles let loose an arrow at the kentaroi as they huddled round Kheiron, which penetrated the arm of Elatos and landed in Kheiron's knee. In horror Herakles ran to him, pulled out the arrow and dressed the wound with a salve that Kheiron handed him. The festering wound was incurable, however, and Kheiron moved into his cave, where he yearned for death, but could not die because he was immortal. Prometheus thereupon proposed Herakles to Zeus, to become immortal in place of Kheiron: and so Kheiron died.&quot; &lt;sub&gt;[Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 2. 83 - 87 (trans. Aldrich) (Greek mythographer **C2nd CE**)][7]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An excerpt from Diodorus Siculus' Library of History from the 1st Century BCE:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;[As Herakles was slaying the Kentauroi (Centaurs) of Mount Pholoe with his arrows :] Herakles unwittingly by a shot from his bow killed the Kentauroi Kheiron (Centaur Chiron), who was admired for his knowledge of healing.&quot; &lt;sub&gt;Diodorus Siculus, Library of History 4. 12. 8 (trans. Oldfather) (Greek historian **C1st BCE**)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;img src=&quot;https://i.stack.imgur.com/mzA9Y.jpg&quot; width=&quot;400&quot; height=&quot;400&quot; /&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;A 17th Century representation of the constellation Centaurus showing the name Chiron in the constellation of Centaurus.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;img src=&quot;https://i.stack.imgur.com/tW8XP.jpg&quot; width=&quot;400&quot; height=&quot;400&quot; /&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt; A 9th Century representation of Sagitarius featuring Crotos.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heracles&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiron&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krotos&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_(god)&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliotheca_%28Pseudo-Apollodorus%29&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23210" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7646" RevisionGUID="588500ea-39c2-4666-ae43-2010d886ac87" CreationDate="2020-09-27T18:47:05.733" UserId="7204" Text="This is a two-part question:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1: What are the earliest known examples of a group believing in a story that is based on or inspired by the Ten Commandments? (The Samaritans are a good example, and if anybody has good sources as to when they originated, I'd really appreciate it!)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2: What are the current theories on the origin of the story of the Ten Commandments? Specifically, when it started up and how it could have come about (was it inspired by a different myth? if so, by what myth? Was it based on a real event? if so, what event? etc.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23211" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7646" RevisionGUID="588500ea-39c2-4666-ae43-2010d886ac87" CreationDate="2020-09-27T18:47:05.733" UserId="7204" Text="What inspired the Ten Commandments and what stories did the Ten Commandments inspire?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23212" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7646" RevisionGUID="588500ea-39c2-4666-ae43-2010d886ac87" CreationDate="2020-09-27T18:47:05.733" UserId="7204" Text="|origins|bible|abrahamic-religions|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23213" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7647" RevisionGUID="0fd5e935-ef59-4c73-a327-5a22d9ade044" CreationDate="2020-09-27T21:56:36.590" UserId="3373" Text="These commandments were originally mentioned and first written down in Exodus 20:2-17, a text written around 600 BME (Before Modern Era) therefore at the time of the 26-th Dynasty of Egypt and is strictly tied with the Hebrew narration of the story which has absolutely no factual presence in other sources. Samaritans are supposedly descendants of Israeli lineages and deported and resettled by Assyrian Sargon II are unlikely authors of the commandments.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; Hebrew people were by and large conquered, invaded, forcefully resettled and decimated by Assyrians and Egyptians and the multiple kingoms of the Levant, including the leading Levantine one - Phoenicia from which the Greek alphabet came from were entering series of treaties, treasons, etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Highly recommended read:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Boardman, John, Iorwerth&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - E. S. Edwards, and David Malcolm Lewis. 2000. The Cambridge ancient history. 3,2, 3,2. Cambridge: Cambridge Univ. Press. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With these unstable surroundings there was a small tribe that subscribed to 'iah, or 'el worship which was a fire-god similar to that of Phoenician Baal (Bel, or El meants 'Lord, King'). In fact the original hebrew version of the old testament posits that 'god sits on a throne of fire in a great abyss', not 'in heaven', as was later translated through greek and vulgata to be more pleasing to the celestial Gods of the Romans. Because of integrity issues and the defensive will to preserve the distinct character of Juda and what remained of Israel that fell to Neo-Assyrian Empire in the 8th century BME, people assuming local kingship had -'iah in their royal surnames (as differentiated from king Manosh, who reverted to polytheism, btw. monotheism, specifically Hebrew exlusivist monotheism is a product of 7-6th century Before Modern Era, earlier they worshipped the plurality of Elohim, primarily Solar Gods). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is a natural conclusion that the exclusive, jealous god of Isaiah could not afford to be included in a pantheon with others, Hebrews have their own story how their god conquered all the others. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To sum it up: It had a socio-political function - namely that of preserving their idea of 'chosen people' and that of preserving cohesion of their tribe. As for the rest of your questions, since I touched only the first commandment - that would require some serious research in history of religious ideas, and most likely Jewish legal codes from which the cultural encoding took its roots. I've found this little book, maybe it will be of help:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Coogan, Michael. The Ten Commandments: A Short History of an Ancient Text. New Haven; London: Yale University Press, 2014&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt5vkqht" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23214" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7648" RevisionGUID="901dea19-f324-4470-a75e-93f37160d6a9" CreationDate="2020-09-27T22:17:35.327" UserId="3373" Text="**Nephilim** are **Enoch's** version of the **Mesopothamian** corpora. Given that Enoch lived in the 3rd century before modern era he had no clue to whom he was referring to:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nephilim are the **hebrew language equivalent** of the **Igigi**, the celestial Gods created by the **Seven Annuna** representing the hypostasis of planets in the Solar System, that centuries later merged into hypostasis of Archons via post-Alexandrine Hellenization straight into Nag Hammadi scriptures and by different paths into astronomical-esoterical alchymic knowledge. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact, in the Akkadian corpus humanity was mythologically created from the blood of a dragon, namely Aw-Ila, who was a chief-rebel Igigi against the imposing work that was ordained by the Annuna Gods. He was slayed and humanity were the new 'working people' of Earth as the Kings of Babylon were given the task to govern humans on behalf of the Gods. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Igigi may be also compared to the Sun-Disked Wings of Babylon and Egypt, visible also in Zoroastrian worship, or even Graeco-Roman drakon cults (Aesculap, for instance), as such they are not demi-gods but Gods, as far as mortal understanding goes in this mythopoesis. For more information, read:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Foster, Benjamin R. 2005. Before the muses: an anthology of Akkadian&#xD;&#xA;   literature. Bethesda, Md: CDL Press." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23215" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7649" RevisionGUID="0931f93b-1cc3-4567-b0b0-29d5e6857682" CreationDate="2020-09-27T22:30:43.003" UserId="3373" Text="Academic Books on 'Dragonology':&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; Chinese Emperors and Sages are said to be sons of Heaven, therefore celestial dragons- **Zhao, Qiguang. 2013. Dragons, East and West.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Humanity as Dragon-offspring of Igigi Aw-Ila and Dragon Annuna as Creator-Gods: **Foster, Benjamin R. 2005. Before the muses: an anthology of Akkadian literature. Bethesda, Md: CDL Press.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Graeco-Roman dragon cults, suppressed by Christianity: **Ogden, Daniel. 2013. Drakōn: dragon myth and serpent cult in the Greek and Roman worlds. Oxford, U.K.: Oxford University Press.** " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23216" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5904" RevisionGUID="87aa60e5-5896-410c-93d4-3261d3d3397f" CreationDate="2020-09-28T09:07:05.013" UserId="5726" Comment="minor corrections and links" Text="[Atenism][1] offers a very good example of the exclusivity of presence. We find it in  the moment of dawn and dusk.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The religious ideas with which Akhenaten grew up were those of the New Solar Theology. It is to be found in hymns and rituals and in the Books of the Netherworld of Dynasty. At its core is the daily course of The Sun, which guarantees the continued existence of the cosmos. The Sun god renews his creation every morning, but he also descends nightly into the netherworld, where his resurrecting light wakes the dead to new life in the depths of The Earth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The entire cosmos is dependent upon light and the sight of the god, but this light must be continually regenerated in the darkness; it must overcome dangers and hostile forces whose most powerful embodiment is the great serpent [Apopis/Apep/Apophis][2]. These menacing forces are defeated, and the New Solar Theology reflects a deep trust in the reliability of The Sun. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, by identifying the diurnal phase of the daily cycle of The Sun with the universal deity ([Aten][3]), Atenism was incapable of dealing with something very important to the ancient Egyptians: a good afterlife. The nocturnal phase was not present. The netherworld and Osiris were left out of the picture, although the [Duat][4] was mentioned. The Aten &quot;rested&quot; in the West and as it were immediately &quot;dawned&quot; in the East, from &quot;horizon&quot; to &quot;horizon&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Akhenaten and the Religion of Light by Erik Hornung, translated by David Lorton][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[ancient Egyptian readings by Wim van den Dungen][6]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Great Hymn to the Aten][7]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Akhenaten: history, fantasy and ancient Egypt][8]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atenism&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apep&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aten&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duat&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://books.google.nl/books?hl=nl&amp;lr=&amp;id=XwUiuI79nUEC&amp;oi=fnd&amp;pg=PR11&amp;dq=aten%20akhenaten&amp;ots=plYauZly6l&amp;sig=FX2JzzIiKHCvAykPIteJcc5e1v8#v=onepage&amp;q=darkness&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.lulu.com/shop/http://www.lulu.com/shop/wim-van-den-dungen/ancient-egyptian-readings/paperback/product-24237025.html&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.maat.sofiatopia.org/aten.htm#4.6a&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://books.google.nl/books?hl=nl&amp;lr=&amp;id=XwUiuI79nUEC&amp;oi=fnd&amp;pg=PR11&amp;dq=aten%20akhenaten&amp;ots=plYauZly6l&amp;sig=FX2JzzIiKHCvAykPIteJcc5e1v8" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23217" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7647" RevisionGUID="9b6bdf58-fa2d-463c-9777-e472fcf83fd4" CreationDate="2020-09-28T09:08:26.133" UserId="5726" Comment="minor typos" Text="These commandments were originally mentioned and first written down in Exodus 20:2-17, a text written around 600 BME (Before Modern Era) therefore at the time of the 26-th Dynasty of Egypt and is strictly tied with the Hebrew narration of the story which has absolutely no factual presence in other sources. Samaritans are supposedly descendants of Israeli lineages and deported and resettled by Assyrian Sargon II are unlikely authors of the commandments.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; Hebrew people were by and large conquered, invaded, forcefully resettled and decimated by Assyrians and Egyptians and the multiple kingdoms of the Levant, including the leading Levantine one - Phoenicia from which the Greek alphabet came from were entering series of treaties, treasons, etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Highly recommended read:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Boardman, John, Iorwerth&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - E. S. Edwards, and David Malcolm Lewis. 2000. The Cambridge ancient history. 3,2, 3,2. Cambridge: Cambridge Univ. Press. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With these unstable surroundings there was a small tribe that subscribed to 'iah, or 'el worship which was a fire-god similar to that of Phoenician Baal (Bel, or El means 'Lord, King'). In fact the original Hebrew version of the old testament posits that 'god sits on a throne of fire in a great abyss', not 'in heaven', as was later translated through Greek and Vulgata to be more pleasing to the celestial Gods of the Romans. Because of integrity issues and the defensive will to preserve the distinct character of Juda and what remained of Israel that fell to Neo-Assyrian Empire in the 8th century BME, people assuming local kingship had -'iah in their royal surnames (as differentiated from king Manosh, who reverted to polytheism, btw. monotheism, specifically Hebrew exlusivist monotheism is a product of 7-6th century Before Modern Era, earlier they worshipped the plurality of Elohim, primarily Solar Gods). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is a natural conclusion that the exclusive, jealous god of Isaiah could not afford to be included in a pantheon with others, Hebrews have their own story how their god conquered all the others. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To sum it up: It had a socio-political function - namely that of preserving their idea of 'chosen people' and that of preserving cohesion of their tribe. As for the rest of your questions, since I touched only the first commandment - that would require some serious research in history of religious ideas, and most likely Jewish legal codes from which the cultural encoding took its roots. I've found this little book, maybe it will be of help:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Coogan, Michael. The Ten Commandments: A Short History of an Ancient Text. New Haven; London: Yale University Press, 2014&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt5vkqht" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23218" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7650" RevisionGUID="60631daa-dc79-4d9c-821a-67cbaa69fd12" CreationDate="2020-09-28T10:05:22.217" UserId="5511" Text="The Ten Commandments contain little that was new to the ancient world and reflect a morality common to the ancient Middle East. In 1901 archeologists uncovered fragments of a copy of the Law Code of King Hammurabi, considered one of the most significant legal documents from antiquity. (Hammurabi was the sixth king of the first dynasty of Babylon, whose dating is controversial but commonly given as 1792-1750 BCE).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are undeniable parallels between Hammurabi’s statutes and those of the Book of the Covenant. For example, in citing the law for personal injury, Hammurabi’s statute 206 states: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “If a man wound another accidentally in a quarrel with a stone or his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fist, and oblige him to take his bed, he shall pay for the loss of his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; time and for the doctors.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The law of Moses, for the same offense, is remarkably similar (Exodus 21:18-19). Given the chronology of the OT, Most of the so-called Ten Commandments are based on earlier Mesopotamian laws and Egyptian ethics. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Bruce Wells, Professor, Saint Joseph's University, describes the origin of the commanments stemming from pre-existing Mesopotamian treaty format like this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Most of the written records from the ancient Near East are contained&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on small clay tablets inscribed with cuneiform (wedge-shaped) writing.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The vast majority of these come from Mesopotamia, inhabited by Assyria&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in the north and Babylonia in the south. Everywhere that the Ten&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Commandments are mentioned in the Hebrew Bible, they are associated&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with the idea of a covenant. The word “covenant” is merely a fancy&#xD;&#xA;&gt; word for “agreement” or, better yet, “contract” or “treaty.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Both marriage contracts and adoption contracts use language that is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; nearly identical to that of the Sinai covenant. In some Aramaic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; marriage contracts from the biblical period, the groom states, “She is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; my wife, and I am her husband,” and the bride responds in kind.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Babylonian adoption contracts often record the father’s oath, “You are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; my son.” These statements are performative—they actualize the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; relationship that is stated. Thus, the biblical authors portray Yahweh&#xD;&#xA;&gt; saying, “you are my people,” using the same kind of language that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; these other contracts use to enact the covenant with the Israelite&#xD;&#xA;&gt; people.  In fact, we can say that the statement ascribed to Yahweh at&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sinai is contractual language.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Long lists of rules were not common in contracts between individuals,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; but they were in treaties (contracts between states). Ancient Near&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eastern treaties tended to follow a general format consisting of at&#xD;&#xA;&gt; least four parts: &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  1. a description of events leading up to the treaty; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  2. the essence of the treaty (typically a commitment of loyalty on the part of the weaker party to the stronger); &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  3. a list of provisions and stipulations describing adherence to the treaty; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  4. a list of curses resulting from breaking the treaty. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Within the Sinai covenant, the Ten Commandments form part of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “provisions and stipulations” section. They show what the biblical&#xD;&#xA;&gt; authors believed loyalty to Yahweh was supposed to look like. Together&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with longer lists of rules that are also associated with the Sinai&#xD;&#xA;&gt; covenant in the Bible, they specify the Israelites’ contractual—or, as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; some might prefer, covenantal—obligations.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23219" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7646" RevisionGUID="20e691b2-4f5b-4f5d-828f-90549a7ee985" CreationDate="2020-09-29T13:43:17.067" UserId="7204" Comment="added clarification and added 'story of' before 'the Ten Commandments' in the first question" Text="This is a two-part question:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1: What are the earliest known examples of a group believing in a story that is based on or inspired by the story of the Ten Commandments? (The Samaritans are a good example, and if anybody has good sources as to when they originated, I'd really appreciate it!)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2: What are the current theories on the origin of the story of the Ten Commandments? Specifically, when it started up and how it could have come about (was it inspired by a different myth? if so, by what myth? Was it based on a real event? if so, what event? etc.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;EDIT: By 'story of the Ten Commandments' I mean the story of the Israelites standing at the base of Mount Sinai while god descended in fire and lightening etc to relay the story of the Ten Commandments, not the contents of the commandments themselves." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23220" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="7545" RevisionGUID="18cb4415-90e2-47ef-922b-dc092c7e0405" CreationDate="2020-09-29T17:02:32.783" UserId="6512" Comment="107" />
  <row Id="23221" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7651" RevisionGUID="20275a64-60d7-424d-a493-9c9824aee6bc" CreationDate="2020-09-29T17:04:34.923" UserId="7013" Text="I am researching the pre-Columbian-colonization Americas for a poem and am currently focused on Florida. Thus I am intriguing myself to the cultures of the major &quot;*Indian*&quot; tribes, especially those which would have made early contact with the Conquistadors during the early 1500s with the colonization of the New World.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question is: were there any mythological gods, goddesses, or deities celebrated in pre-European-influenced Florida? (by this I mean prior to the imposing of Christianity unto natives). The tribes I am most interested in are Tequesta, Calusa, Tequesta, Ais, Jeaga tribes, which because they were located more than any other on the left side of the Floridian peninsula, then they are more likely to have been met first with European (Spain) contact in the 16th century. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I did find some essays on the subject which mentioned much worship to the sun and moon, but my question is more specifically if there are any recorded god-like figures which they regarded in their cultures?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any insight would be profoundly appreciated. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23222" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7651" RevisionGUID="20275a64-60d7-424d-a493-9c9824aee6bc" CreationDate="2020-09-29T17:04:34.923" UserId="7013" Text="Were there any gods Floridian Tribes recognized?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23223" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7651" RevisionGUID="20275a64-60d7-424d-a493-9c9824aee6bc" CreationDate="2020-09-29T17:04:34.923" UserId="7013" Text="|folklore|native-american|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23230" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7654" RevisionGUID="0011dedd-7dfc-4e19-b530-f692fff8fed8" CreationDate="2020-09-30T18:44:46.873" UserId="7282" Text="In the Hebrew Bible, [Genesis 5:23][1] records Enoch's age as 365 years. As far as I can tell based on my review of the BHS and Göttingen LXX apparatus, there are no alternate readings of this number as 354 nor as 364 years.&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Several scholars have noted the identification of Enoch with the seventh antediluvian king, Enmeduranki (or Enmeduranna) from existing Mesopotamian mythologies.&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; This king was known as the founder of the Babylonian diviners' guild and ruled the city of Sippar, the center of the cult of Shamash, the sun god.&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mesopotamian calendars were mainly lunar and thus a year was considered to have *approximately* 354 days. The non-biblical Dead Sea Scrolls found at Qumran clearly feature a 364-day solar calendar, as well as 1 Enoch (which self-purports to be written by the subject of Genesis 5:21-4).&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; It appears that the age of Enoch given as 365 years in Genesis 5:23 was intended to establish a connection between Enoch and the solar calendar.&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While I think the connection itself is fairly clear, I'm struggling to understand its significance. Many of the other identifications appear to challenge or re-frame some aspect of the Mesopotamian tradition(s) to which they allude, but it is unclear to me what significance Enoch plays in challenging previous conceptions of Enmeduranki. Perhaps I'm reading more into this than is there and this is merely part of the longstanding Babylonian scribal/mythological tradition that points to the seventh antediluvian king/sage ascending to heaven and receiving revelations of divine wisdom, and the Hebrew author(s) were merely restating earlier traditions as a given. But is there something that the ancient reader would have found shocking or odd about Enoch (assuming this reader were familiar with the seventh antediluvian figure in earlier traditions)?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;--------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; The Göttingen LXX apparatus does contain the following footnote but the Greek indicates the reading &quot;465 years&quot; which seems blatantly erroneous (I understand the abbreviated π. κ. εξηκ. κ. τετρακοσια ετη to read as &quot;five and sixty and four hundred years&quot; = 465 years): π. κ. εξηκ. κ. τετρακοσια ετη, Paris, Bibl. Nat., Gr. 1. XIII. Jh. Anfang bis 3:20 und 10:7 και 2°–13:11 απο 1° fehlen. 71.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; Beaulieu, &quot;The Social and Intellectual Setting of Babylonian Wisdom Literature&quot;, 15; Rochberg, *Heavenly Writing*, 183-184; W. G. Lambert, &quot;The Qualifications of Babylonian Diviners&quot;, in *tikip santakki mala bašmu.. Festschrift für Rykle Borger zu seinem 65. Geburtstag am 24. Mai 1994*, Stefan M. Maul (Groningen: Styx, 1998), pp. 141-158.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; J.J. Collins, *The Apocalyptic Imagination: An Introduction to Jewish Apocalyptic Literature* 2nd. ed. (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1998), 26, 45-6.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; Including in *The Book of Jubilees* (dated approx. 2nd century BCE) and in *The Astronomical Book* of 1 Enoch (chs. 72-82, 73:11; 74:4; 81:7, 11; also in the *Similitudes* at 71:42; dated approx. 3rd century BCE or earlier). [VanderKam has written extensively on this][2].&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; It also appears that Noah is identified with Ziusudra / Atra-Hasis / Utanapishtim.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.academic-bible.com/en/online-bibles/biblia-hebraica-stuttgartensia-bhs/read-the-bible-text/bibel/text/lesen/stelle/1/50001/59999/ch/9f86433404b1706a30fd7e0445afb8ad/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.jstor.org/stable/43714717" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23231" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7654" RevisionGUID="0011dedd-7dfc-4e19-b530-f692fff8fed8" CreationDate="2020-09-30T18:44:46.873" UserId="7282" Text="Significance of Enoch's age in the Hebrew Bible and identification with seventh antediluvian king/sage from Mesopotamian mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23232" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7654" RevisionGUID="0011dedd-7dfc-4e19-b530-f692fff8fed8" CreationDate="2020-09-30T18:44:46.873" UserId="7282" Text="|bible|mesopotamia|judaism|hebrew|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23234" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7655" RevisionGUID="ee3ccc95-3894-4218-8d38-de9aa43eee07" CreationDate="2020-10-02T18:26:27.027" UserId="7286" Text="I am wondering whether, in Greek mythology, the Titans as a &quot;class&quot; or a &quot;whole&quot; represented some idea, facet of life, what have you, and whether the gods as a &quot;class&quot; or &quot;whole&quot; represented some other idea, etc.  I know that various Titans were said to have control over this part of nature or that part of the psyche etc., and the same with the gods.  But my question is, did these two &quot;classes of deities&quot; as two &quot;wholes&quot; represent something to the Greeks?  For example, I have read somewhere -- and I can't find the link and I have no idea whether the author was correct -- that the Titans represented the more primitive aspects of the human psyche while the gods represented the more developed, creative, civilized aspects.  (BTW, I know there is another question on this site about the difference between Titans and gods but, even though it was interesting for sure, it does not ask what I am asking here.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23235" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7655" RevisionGUID="ee3ccc95-3894-4218-8d38-de9aa43eee07" CreationDate="2020-10-02T18:26:27.027" UserId="7286" Text="Symbolism of Titans and Gods" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23236" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7655" RevisionGUID="ee3ccc95-3894-4218-8d38-de9aa43eee07" CreationDate="2020-10-02T18:26:27.027" UserId="7286" Text="|greek|olympians|titans|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23242" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7658" RevisionGUID="7bad8bb2-9d69-468f-90e3-86afb9395434" CreationDate="2020-10-06T16:58:57.343" UserId="7095" Text="A couple of possible answers:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a more secular view: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Heinrich Zimmern][1] in The Babylonian and the Hebrew Genesis (Originally in German &quot;Biblische und babylonische Urgeschichte&quot;), [pg 44-45][2], wrote:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...We have found in Babylonian traditions the origin of this figure of the sage walking with God through the greater part of a life of three hundred and sixty-five years. Of the seventh primaeval king - Evedoranchos, as the name is given in Greek form by Berossus, or Enmeduranki, as it is given in Babylonian - many tales are told. He was king of Sippar, the city of the Sun-god Shamash. The god called him to intercourse with himself, taught him concerning many secrets of heaven and earth, and especially the art of foretelling the future from signs in heaven and on earth. Thus Enmeduranki became to the Babylonians the prototype of soothsayers...and, above all, by astrology, that is, the reading of the future by observation of the movements of the heavenly bodies and the positions of the constellations. As Enmeduranki to the Babylonians so did Henoch stand to the Jews of later times as the father and founder of astrology, and, indeed, of all knowledge in heaven and on earth. His life of three hundred and sixty-five years - short compared with the great ages attributed to the other patriarchs - may now be explained easily: Enmeduranki being in the service of the Sun-god, to Henoch were attributed the number of the days of the solar year as the number of the years of his life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore, the significance of the number of years of Enoch's life being the same number of days as the solar year was to emphasize that Enoch was the father of astrology - and possibly other paths of wisdom&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; - while removing the polytheistic aspect of that tradition, which was, of course, contradictory to the Israelite religion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a more Jewish view:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;a. Perhaps there is no sun-related symbolic significance to Enoch's age, and the Biblical author actually thought that Enoch died at age 365 and wished to convey this to the Israelites. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;b. Jewish tradition holds that the Jewish calendar, was and is a solar-lunar calendar&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;, which, in this context, means that neither the sun nor the moon &quot;rule&quot; exclusively over anything. Neither is more important; rather, the one God rules over all. This would explain why the myth of Enoch ruling over Sippar was not included but his age was. Again, a removal of the polytheistic aspect of the tale.&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; Though I am not sure based on what Jewish sources Zimmern says this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; Prof. Sid Z. Leiman in this [lecture][3], I believe, makes mention of the specific Dead Sea cult that used the specific calendar you mentioned. Yes, it was inherently different from the Pharisee calendar which was later accepted by the vast majority of the Jewish people, and not just because it was a solar calendar. The tradition I refer to is the one now commonly accepted by Orthodox Jews based on the Pharisee tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; Something similar was suggested about the figures of Tubal-Cain, Lemech and Naamah by the Jewish scholars [Malbim][4], [Shadal][5] and [Rabbi Immanuel Frances][6], as can be seen in the translations I brought in this [answer][7]. Both ideas - about Lemech and his descendants being the basis of later myths and Enoch and his descendants being thought of as the mythical rulers of the ancient Mesopotamian cities - are also brought by Rabbi Philip Biberfeld in his book [Universal Jewish History, vol. I][8].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Zimmern&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://archive.org/details/babylonianandhe00hutcgoog/page/n56/mode/2up&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/726240/dr-shnayer-leiman/dead-sea-scrolls-ancient-jewish-texts-&amp;-modernity/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malbim&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_David_Luzzatto&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Frances&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/6473/7095&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.hebrewbooks.org/4187" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23243" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7646" RevisionGUID="74f35e41-7f43-48a1-a2a0-62f6c2050a0e" CreationDate="2020-10-06T17:03:17.017" UserId="7204" Comment="replaced 'Sinai Event' instead with 'Ten Commandments'" Text="This is a two-part question:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1: What are the earliest known examples of a group believing in a story that is based on or inspired by the story of The Sinai Event? (The Samaritans are a good example, and if anybody has good sources as to when they originated, I'd really appreciate that as well!)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2: What are the current theories on the origin of the story of the Sinai Event? Specifically, when was it started up and how did it come about? (was it inspired by a different myth? if so, by what myth? Was it based on a real event? if so, what event? etc.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;EDIT: By 'story of the Sinai Event' I mean the story of the Israelites standing at the base of Mount Sinai while god descended in fire and lightening etc to relay the story of the Ten Commandments, not the contents of the commandments themselves." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23244" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="7646" RevisionGUID="74f35e41-7f43-48a1-a2a0-62f6c2050a0e" CreationDate="2020-10-06T17:03:17.017" UserId="7204" Comment="replaced 'Sinai Event' instead with 'Ten Commandments'" Text="What inspired the story of The Sinai Event and what other stories did it inspire?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23245" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7658" RevisionGUID="1a8dbe34-0eba-48cf-8b64-45bfc53a02b6" CreationDate="2020-10-06T17:19:56.320" UserId="7095" Comment="added 15 characters in body" Text="A couple of possible answers:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a more secular view: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Heinrich Zimmern][1] in The Babylonian and the Hebrew Genesis (Originally in German &quot;Biblische und babylonische Urgeschichte&quot;), [pg 44-45][2], wrote:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...We have found in Babylonian traditions the origin of this figure of the sage walking with God through the greater part of a life of three hundred and sixty-five years. Of the seventh primaeval king - Evedoranchos, as the name is given in Greek form by Berossus, or Enmeduranki, as it is given in Babylonian - many tales are told. He was king of Sippar, the city of the Sun-god Shamash. The god called him to intercourse with himself, taught him concerning many secrets of heaven and earth, and especially the art of foretelling the future from signs in heaven and on earth. Thus Enmeduranki became to the Babylonians the prototype of soothsayers...and, above all, by astrology, that is, the reading of the future by observation of the movements of the heavenly bodies and the positions of the constellations. As Enmeduranki to the Babylonians so did Henoch stand to the Jews of later times as the father and founder of astrology, and, indeed, of all knowledge in heaven and on earth. His life of three hundred and sixty-five years - short compared with the great ages attributed to the other patriarchs - may now be explained easily: Enmeduranki being in the service of the Sun-god, to Henoch were attributed the number of the days of the solar year as the number of the years of his life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore, the significance of the number of years of Enoch's life being the same number of days as the solar year was to emphasize that Enoch was the father of astrology - and possibly other paths of wisdom&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; - while removing the polytheistic aspect of that tradition, which was, of course, contradictory to the Israelite religion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a more Jewish view, I can suggest:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;a. Perhaps there is no sun-related symbolic significance to Enoch's age, and the Biblical author actually thought that Enoch died at age 365 and wished to convey this to the Israelites. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;b. Jewish tradition holds that the Jewish calendar, was and is a solar-lunar calendar&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;, which, in this context, means that neither the sun nor the moon &quot;rule&quot; exclusively over anything. Neither is more important; rather, the one God rules over all. This would explain why the myth of Enoch ruling over Sippar was not included but his age was. Again, a removal of the polytheistic aspect of the tale.&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; Though I am not sure based on what Jewish sources Zimmern says this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; Prof. Sid Z. Leiman in this [lecture][3], I believe, makes mention of the specific Dead Sea cult that used the specific calendar you mentioned. Yes, it was inherently different from the Pharisee calendar which was later accepted by the vast majority of the Jewish people, and not just because it was a solar calendar. The tradition I refer to is the one now commonly accepted by Orthodox Jews based on the Pharisee tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; Something similar was suggested about the figures of Tubal-Cain, Lemech and Naamah by the Jewish scholars [Malbim][4], [Shadal][5] and [Rabbi Immanuel Frances][6], as can be seen in the translations I brought in this [answer][7]. Both ideas - about Lemech and his descendants being the basis of later myths and Enoch and his descendants being thought of as the mythical rulers of the ancient Mesopotamian cities - are also brought by Rabbi Philip Biberfeld in his book [Universal Jewish History, vol. I][8].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Zimmern&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://archive.org/details/babylonianandhe00hutcgoog/page/n56/mode/2up&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/726240/dr-shnayer-leiman/dead-sea-scrolls-ancient-jewish-texts-&amp;-modernity/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malbim&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_David_Luzzatto&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Frances&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/6473/7095&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.hebrewbooks.org/4187" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23246" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6477" RevisionGUID="868353b2-6e49-40fd-addc-6144adc5fa83" CreationDate="2020-10-07T07:39:46.160" UserId="7095" Comment="Corrected grammar mistake" Text="Okay, this might be something:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [OAHSPE Bible][1] mentions Crite three times:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Thoth sent the following message to Looeamong, to wit:...But, behold, I labor against Gods who have the advantage of me. The Chine'ya rebel&#xD;&#xA;Gods and the Vind'yu rebel Gods, that fled from the Triune kingdoms in the east, have&#xD;&#xA;taken upon themselves names popular with mortals. Witness these names:...Pherna, alias&#xD;&#xA;Holasa, alias Iao, alias **Crite**, alias Thammus...&quot; ([pg. 958][2])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;For one year and five months the balloting lasted, and at that time the ballot rested&#xD;&#xA;nearly equally on five Gods, namely: Jove, Kriste, Mars, **Crite** and Siva. And here the&#xD;&#xA;ballot changed not for yet seven time more, which was seven weeks.&quot; (pg. 963)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The next question was, what mortal representative should be chosen? The first ballot brought out the following men: Zarasthustra, Thothma, Abraham,&#xD;&#xA;Brahma, Atys, Thammus, Joshu, Sakaya, Habron, Bali, **Crite**, Chrisna, Thulis, Witoba&#xD;&#xA;and Speio. Besides these, there were included in the ballot, forty-six other men, who&#xD;&#xA;received a small number of ballots each. (pg. 963)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As can be seen, several of the other crucified figures mentioned by Higgins and Graves also appear, such as Atys, Chrisna (Krishna), Witoba and Thulis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If the OAHSPE is reliable in any sort of way, then that means that Crite can be identified with Thammus&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;, AKA [Tammuz][3], who, according to Higgins, is connected to St. Thomas:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;...Is there not great room for suspicion, that this Thomas was the Tamus for whom the women of Judea&#xD;&#xA;wept, and that his followers were not Christians, but Crhj-tians, followers of him of whom the Erythræan&#xD;&#xA;Sibyl prophesied?...The Portuguese finding these Christians worshiping and bewailing a Thomas or Tamuz—put to death at the&#xD;&#xA;vernal equinox, and after three days rising again to life, as I shall shew in a future book—to whom were&#xD;&#xA;attributed all things which were attributed to Jesus Christ, settled it instantly, that there was a mistake&#xD;&#xA;ignorantly made between St. Thomas (who must have gone to India as they believed) and Jesus Christ—a&#xD;&#xA;mistake made before by Jerom...&quot; ([pg. 666][4])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, author [Acharya S][5] suggests in an [essay on Beddru][6] (also on the list) that Beddru is a printing typo and is meant to be Beddou, who she identifies with Buddha, so if Crite isn't an invention of Graves', it's possible that it's also a typo. As was pointed out somewhere on the internet, this would mean that Buddha appears more than once on the list, under different names. If the OAHSPE's interpretation holds any water, then the same can be said of Tammuz.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As it turns out, in the [second volume of Anaclypsis][7], the following is written:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;I now beg my reader to look back to Vol. I. pp. 549-553, and there he will see the account of the prophecy of [Apollo of Miletus][8]...In this country there was a place called Thamas...also...and the island of Crete, called [Candia][9] and *Icriti*. I think in Apollo Didymaeus and the oracle of the incarnate person crucified by the Chaldaeans...and Patrick to Ireland, who brought **the mythos of the God incarnate crucified by the Chaldaeans - the God Icriti or Critika&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;, which was both *bull* and *ram*&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; - the God alluded by Apollo of Miletus**.&quot; (pg. 117)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This Icriti&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt;, as was written in Volume I, was crucified by Chaldean judges:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lanctatius makes the Apollo of Miletus say, &quot;He was a mortal according to the flesh; wise in miraculous works; but, being arrested by an armed force by command of the CHALDEAN judges, he suffered a death made bitter with nails and stakes.&quot;&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; (pg. 543)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;If my reader look back to Book IX. Chap. X., he will find a prophecy by Apollo, of Miletus, of a divine incarnation crucified by Chaldean judges. There were the Chaldaeans of Colida…It was the crucifixion of Crisen and Salivahana and St. Thomas, of the Christians of Crisen.&quot; (pg. 810)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Lactantius makes the Apollo of Miletus say, &quot;He was a mortal according to the flesh; wise in miraculous works; but, being arrested by an armed force by command of the Chaldean judges, he suffered a death made bitter with nails and stakes. In this, of course, devotees will see nothing but a Gentile prophecy of Christ...The reference to the Chaldean judges shews, that this can have no reference to the crucified saviour of our Bible.&quot;&quot; ([pg. 584][10])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; That Thammus and Crite appear as separate entities in the third section appears to be because that section refers to mortals, many of whom are named after gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; On Icriti and Crite: In Hebrew, &quot;Ikriti&quot; means &quot;of Crete&quot; (for example, [Rabbi Shmaryah HaIkriti][11], who, coincidentally enough, was put to death on the assertion that he had claimed he was the Jewish messiah). Crite is of course very similar to Crete, and Higgins was known to have mixed and matched multiple languages and multiple varying spellings of different words, so perhaps the typo came from here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; On &quot;the Bull and the Ram&quot; - this appears to be a reference to vol. I, pg. 231:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;But the word Ram, ראם *ram* in Hebrew [actually pronounced Re'em] means both Bull and Ram. This arose, I suspect, from the Indian incarnation of Rama, who preceeded Cristas. In fact he was the incarnation of the Neros when the Sun left Taurus and entered Aries; thus he was incarnate in the signs of both the Bull and the Ram.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Re'em in Hebrew refers to both the modern animal the [Oryx][12] and the mythic [Re'em][13] creature, which is widely believed to have been some sort of wild bull.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This, in turn, appears to refer to a running idea in vol. I of the bull and the ram representing God:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...and this may account for the transfer of the festival of Taurus to that of Aries...It is pretty evident from the Paschal feast, the sacrifice of the Lamb, the change of the beginning of the year to the first of Aries, the anger at Aaron's Bull or Bulls, the going back of the Israelites to the Bulls of Bethavon, בית אן *bit an*, etc, a great part of Moses's object was the change of the festival of the equinox from Taurus to Aries. I cannot help suspecting that in very anceint times a human being was sacrificed at the Pascal festival by some devotees, and that the story of Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac was the mythologic mode of describing the change, either from this worship, or from the offering of the bull or calf, to that of the Lamb, perhaps of both. The simultaneous existence of the worship of the sun in Taurus with the sun in Aries...Thus we find the festival of Taurus continued along with that of Aries in Britain...In Egypt they appear to have gone on amicably. And we have Osiris, Apis, Serapis, and Jupiter Ammon...&quot; (pg.256)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;To return to the word Baal. The word בעל *bol*, called by us Baal...בעל *bol* is also called אלהים aleim [actually pronounced Elohim]...God was originally called בעל *Bol*, *Thou shalt no more call me Baali*. He was afterwards called...ie [reference to the tetragrammaton]...and was the root of the word Iaw, or Iao-pater, Jupiter, and in Egypt, with the head of a ram, was called Jupiter Ammon [possibly Amun?]. The followers of Baal were the worshipers of the sun in Taurus: those of Iao of Ammon - of the sun in Aries. From the word בעל Bol probably came our word Bull. Here the struggle betwixt the two sects of Taurus and Aries shews itself.&quot;&quot; (pg. 258-259)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; The description of &quot;Crite&quot; or Icriti in Graves' book appears to have come from the following passage:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;In this ceremony of sacrificing the lamb the devotees of India chant with a loud voice, *When will it be that the Saviour will be born! When will it be that the Redeemer will appear!*&quot; ([pg. 261][14])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In vol. II, pg. 117, in a footnote on Icriti, Higgins wrote:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Evidently the Indian Kritika&lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt;.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meaning that Higgins identified the Indian savior with the Cretan/Chaldean Icriti, which explains &quot;Crite&quot;'s description in Graves' book.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; [Lactantius, the Divine Institutes, Book IV][15]. Lactantius makes out this prophecy to be about Jesus, but Higgins refutes that because of the reference to Chaldean judges as the crucifiers (and not Romans). Either way, this means that the Milesian oracle spoke of an event that had happened long before (as opposed to foreseeing the future).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt; On Kritika in India and Crete: [Krittika][16] is the Indian name for the Pleione star cluster and is also the name of the female goddess-personification of the cluster. [Kritika][17] is the name of a type of traditional Cretan music.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;In short, &quot;Crite&quot; appears to have been a Cretan deity or deity-incarnate who was prophesied by Apollo of Miletus to being crucified by Chaldean judges, which supposedly is exactly what happened.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Note: According to Wikipedia, Babylonian history can be calculated through five different chronological calculations (ultra-short chronology leading up to ultra-high chronology), so it's hard to pinpoint what exactly may have happened in [1200 BCE][18], if that's even the correct date and if anything related to the crucifying of a Cretan happened at all.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;A few possibilities: 1. Collapse of Hittite power in Anatolia with the destruction of their capital Hattusa. 2. Massive migrations of people around the Mediterranean and the Middle-East. See [Sea People][19] for more information. 3. Aramaic nomads and Chaldeans become a big threat to the former Babylonian and Assyrian Empire. 4. Migration and expansion of Dorian Greeks. Destruction of Mycenaean city Pylos. 5. Final destruction of the major [Mycenian][20] city excavated at Iklaina.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;As can be seen, circa 1200 BCE there were many great upheavals both in the area of Crete and its people (Mycenaeans, Sea People, etc) and in Babylon. It's possible that in order to reach new land, the displaced Cretans traveled through Babylon and were attacked by the Chaldeans, but this is just a guess.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oahspe:_A_New_Bible&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.angelfire.com/realm3/oahspedownload/OAHSPE.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumuzid&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.baytagoodah.com/uploads/9/5/6/0/95600058/godfrey_higgins_-_anacalypsis.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acharya_S&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://kahalyahweh.net/Articles/Beddru-Buddha.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.metaphysicspirit.com/books/Anacalypsis%20Vol.%20II.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didyma#History&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Candia&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://anacalypsisattem01higg&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shemariah_of_Negropont&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oryx&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re%27em&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://archive.org/details/anacalypsisattem01higg/page/260/mode/2up?q=redeemer&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://orthodoxchurchfathers.com/?page_mode=search_result&amp;file_section=section_560288&amp;query=lactantius%20divine&amp;match_partial_words=0&amp;relative_filename=fathers/anf07/anf0707.htm#P1114_500295#apollo&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%E1%B9%9Bttik%C4%81&#xD;&#xA;  [17]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_Crete&#xD;&#xA;  [18]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1200s_BC_(decade)&#xD;&#xA;  [19]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples&#xD;&#xA;  [20]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenae" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23247" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7658" RevisionGUID="64766613-1a02-43ba-ae97-86d12cf12ec6" CreationDate="2020-10-07T14:53:56.940" UserId="7095" Comment="Added two more answers." Text="A few possible answers:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a more secular view: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Heinrich Zimmern][1] in The Babylonian and the Hebrew Genesis (Originally in German &quot;Biblische und babylonische Urgeschichte&quot;), [pg 44-45][2], wrote:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...We have found in Babylonian traditions the origin of this figure of the sage walking with God through the greater part of a life of three hundred and sixty-five years. Of the seventh primaeval king - Evedoranchos, as the name is given in Greek form by Berossus, or Enmeduranki, as it is given in Babylonian - many tales are told. He was king of Sippar, the city of the Sun-god Shamash. The god called him to intercourse with himself, taught him concerning many secrets of heaven and earth, and especially the art of foretelling the future from signs in heaven and on earth. Thus Enmeduranki became to the Babylonians the prototype of soothsayers...and, above all, by astrology, that is, the reading of the future by observation of the movements of the heavenly bodies and the positions of the constellations. As Enmeduranki to the Babylonians so did Henoch stand to the Jews of later times as the father and founder of astrology, and, indeed, of all knowledge in heaven and on earth. His life of three hundred and sixty-five years - short compared with the great ages attributed to the other patriarchs - may now be explained easily: Enmeduranki being in the service of the Sun-god, to Henoch were attributed the number of the days of the solar year as the number of the years of his life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore, the significance of the number of years of Enoch's life being the same number of days as the solar year was to emphasize that Enoch was the father of astrology - and possibly other paths of wisdom&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; - while removing the polytheistic aspect of that tradition, which was, of course, contradictory to the Israelite religion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a more Jewish view, I can suggest:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;a. Perhaps there is no sun-related symbolic significance to Enoch's age, and the Biblical author actually thought that Enoch died at age 365 and wished to convey this to the Israelites. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;b. Jewish tradition holds that the Jewish calendar, was and is a solar-lunar calendar&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;, which, in this context, means that neither the sun nor the moon &quot;rule&quot; exclusively over anything. Neither is more important; rather, the one God rules over all. This would explain why the myth of Enoch ruling over Sippar was not included but his age was. Again, a removal of the polytheistic aspect of the tale.&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;c. I have just stumbled upon what Philo wrote on Enoch's lifetime:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In the first place, the year contains three hundred and sixty-five days; therefore, by the symbol of the solar orbit, the sacred historian here indicates the life of the repentant man. In the second place, as the sun is the cause of day and night, performing his revolutions by day above the hemisphere of the earth, and his course by night under the earth, so also the life of the man of repentance consists of alternations of light and darkness; of darkness, that is, of times of agitation and circumstances of injury; and of light, when the light of virtue and its radiant brilliancy arises. In the third place, he has assigned to him a complete number, as the sun is ordained to be the chief of the stars of heaven, under an appointed number, in the time which came before the period of his repentance, to lead to the oblivion of the sins previously committed; since, as God is good, he bestows the greatest favours most abundantly, and, at the same time, he effaces the former offences of those who devote themselves to him, and which might deserve chastisement, by a recollection of their virtues. ([The Midrash of Philo, 5:23][3])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Philo emphasizes an idea that was accepted by some Jewish scholars, that Enoch was a repentant man - sometimes he sinned and sometimes he repented and was righteous.&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; Every year, according to the Jewish calendar, eventually brings one back to the Days of Atonement, also known as the High Holidays, during the months of Elul and Tishrei. Regardless of what that person may have done, every year, he has another chance to atone for his sins. The second point he makes ties into the first. The third also, but it may be argued that the third puts a special emphasis on the importance of the sun itself, which may be used as an argument in favor of similarities with the Mesopotamian Enoch being ruler of the sun-god-city. However, Philo emphasizes that the sun is only another tool for bringing about the glory of God.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;d. Some Jewish scholars have written that the significance of the number of years matching the solar calendar is to tell us that Enoch during his lifetime came to know incredible astronomical information (and not astrological, as Zimmern put it), which in turn led him to the realization that there is a higher power, that &quot;all the bodies of light come from the Higher Light&quot;, as [Rabbienu Bechayey ibn Chalawa][4] put it, in his [commentary on the verse][5], or as [Rabbi Yitzchak Karo][6] put in his book [Toldot Yitzchak][7], &quot;...and for this he said &quot;and Enoch walked with God&quot;, and the phrasing &quot;walking&quot; is only mentioned in relation to righteous ones. And by Noah it is said &quot;Noah walked with God&quot; and by Abraham it is said &quot;Walk in My ways&quot; and they all gained knowledge of the cycle of the sun and its great powers that teach about the rulership of The Lord of All and His Greatness and Enoch stuck to The Higher Light from Whom came and were created the bodies of light on the fourth day.&quot; (my translation)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Either way, it seems that the point made by the Biblical author was to emphasize the monotheistic aspect of the figure and the removal of the polytheistic aspect.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; Though I am not sure based on what Jewish sources Zimmern says this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; Prof. Sid Z. Leiman in this [lecture][8], I believe, makes mention of the specific Dead Sea cult that used the specific calendar you mentioned. Yes, it was inherently different from the Pharisee calendar which was later accepted by the vast majority of the Jewish people, and not just because it was a solar calendar. The tradition I refer to is the one now commonly accepted by Orthodox Jews based on the Pharisee tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; Something similar was suggested about the figures of Tubal-Cain, Lemech and Naamah by the Jewish scholars [Malbim][9], [Shadal][10] and [Rabbi Immanuel Frances][11], as can be seen in the translations I brought in this [answer][12]. Both ideas - about Lemech and his descendants being the basis of later myths and Enoch and his descendants being thought of as the mythical rulers of the ancient Mesopotamian cities - are also brought by Rabbi Philip Biberfeld in his book [Universal Jewish History, vol. I][13].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; Midrash [Beresheet Rabbah 25:1][14]: &quot;Said Rabbi Aibo: Enoch was a hypocrite - sometimes he was righteous, sometimes he was a sinner. Said The Holy One, Blessed Is He: Until he is in his righteousness, I shall remove him [from this world]&quot; (my translation); [New Zohar, Genesis 842][15]: &quot;It is said in a baraita: Enoch son of Yared was a righteous man, but accepted upon himself to do evil. And The Holy One, Blessed Is He took him before his time, to do charity with him and to give him a good reward in the world to come.&quot; (my translation).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Zimmern&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://archive.org/details/babylonianandhe00hutcgoog/page/n56/mode/2up&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Genesis.5.23?vhe=Tanach_with_Ta%27amei_Hamikra&amp;lang=bi&amp;aliyot=0&amp;p2=The_Midrash_of_Philo.5.23.2&amp;lang2=bi&amp;w2=all&amp;lang3=en&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahya_ben_Asher&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Genesis.5.23?vhe=Tanach_with_Ta%27amei_Hamikra&amp;lang=bi&amp;with=Rabbeinu%20Bahya&amp;lang2=en&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Karo&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Genesis.5.23?vhe=Tanach_with_Ta%27amei_Hamikra&amp;lang=bi&amp;with=Toledot%20Yitzchak&amp;lang2=en&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/726240/dr-shnayer-leiman/dead-sea-scrolls-ancient-jewish-texts-&amp;-modernity/&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malbim&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_David_Luzzatto&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Frances&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/6473/7095&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://www.hebrewbooks.org/4187&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Bereishit_Rabbah.25.1?lang=bi&amp;with=all&amp;lang2=en&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Zohar_Chadash%2C_Bereshit.842?vhe=Zohar_Chadash&amp;lang=bi" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23248" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7658" RevisionGUID="38101fa7-2758-451d-90bd-3022abaf48e9" CreationDate="2020-10-07T15:24:43.743" UserId="7095" Comment="Added another footnote for clarification." Text="A few possible answers:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a more secular view: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Heinrich Zimmern][1] in The Babylonian and the Hebrew Genesis (Originally in German &quot;Biblische und babylonische Urgeschichte&quot;), [pg 44-45][2], wrote:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...We have found in Babylonian traditions the origin of this figure of the sage walking with God through the greater part of a life of three hundred and sixty-five years. Of the seventh primaeval king - Evedoranchos, as the name is given in Greek form by Berossus, or Enmeduranki, as it is given in Babylonian - many tales are told. He was king of Sippar, the city of the Sun-god Shamash. The god called him to intercourse with himself, taught him concerning many secrets of heaven and earth, and especially the art of foretelling the future from signs in heaven and on earth. Thus Enmeduranki became to the Babylonians the prototype of soothsayers...and, above all, by astrology, that is, the reading of the future by observation of the movements of the heavenly bodies and the positions of the constellations. As Enmeduranki to the Babylonians so did Henoch stand to the Jews of later times as the father and founder of astrology, and, indeed, of all knowledge in heaven and on earth. His life of three hundred and sixty-five years - short compared with the great ages attributed to the other patriarchs - may now be explained easily: Enmeduranki being in the service of the Sun-god, to Henoch were attributed the number of the days of the solar year as the number of the years of his life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore, the significance of the number of years of Enoch's life being the same number of days as the solar year was to emphasize that Enoch was the father of astrology - and possibly other paths of wisdom&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; - while removing the polytheistic aspect of that tradition, which was, of course, contradictory to the Israelite religion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a more Jewish view, I can suggest:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;a. Perhaps there is no sun-related symbolic significance to Enoch's age, and the Biblical author actually thought that Enoch died at age 365 and wished to convey this to the Israelites. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;b. Jewish tradition holds that the Jewish calendar, was and is a solar-lunar calendar&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;, which, in this context, means that neither the sun nor the moon &quot;rule&quot; exclusively over anything. Neither is more important; rather, the one God rules over all. This would explain why the myth of Enoch ruling over Sippar was not included but his age was. Again, a removal of the polytheistic aspect of the tale.&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;c. I have just stumbled upon what Philo wrote on Enoch's lifetime:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In the first place, the year contains three hundred and sixty-five days; therefore, by the symbol of the solar orbit, the sacred historian here indicates the life of the repentant man. In the second place, as the sun is the cause of day and night, performing his revolutions by day above the hemisphere of the earth, and his course by night under the earth, so also the life of the man of repentance consists of alternations of light and darkness; of darkness, that is, of times of agitation and circumstances of injury; and of light, when the light of virtue and its radiant brilliancy arises. In the third place, he has assigned to him a complete number, as the sun is ordained to be the chief of the stars of heaven, under an appointed number, in the time which came before the period of his repentance, to lead to the oblivion of the sins previously committed; since, as God is good, he bestows the greatest favours most abundantly, and, at the same time, he effaces the former offences of those who devote themselves to him, and which might deserve chastisement, by a recollection of their virtues. ([The Midrash of Philo, 5:23][3])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Philo emphasizes an idea that was also presented by some Jewish scholars, that Enoch was a repentant man - sometimes he sinned and sometimes he repented and was righteous.&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; Every year, according to the Jewish calendar, eventually brings one back to the Days of Atonement, also known as the High Holidays, during the months of Elul and Tishrei. Regardless of what that person may have done, every year, he has another chance to atone for his sins. The second point he makes ties into the first. The third also, but it may be argued that the third puts a special emphasis on the importance of the sun itself, which may be used as an argument in favor of similarities with the Mesopotamian Enoch being ruler of the sun-god-city. However, Philo emphasizes that the sun is only another tool for bringing about the glory of God.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;d. Some Jewish scholars have written that the significance of the number of years matching the solar calendar is to tell us that Enoch during his lifetime came to know incredible astronomical information (and not astrological, as Zimmern put it), which in turn led him to the realization that there is a higher power, that &quot;all the bodies of light come from the Higher Light&quot;, as [Rabbienu Bechayey ibn Chalawa][4] put it, in his [commentary on the verse][5], or as [Rabbi Yitzchak Karo][6] put in his book [Toldot Yitzchak][7], &quot;...and for this he said &quot;and Enoch walked with God&quot;, and the phrasing &quot;walking&quot; is only mentioned in relation to righteous ones. And by Noah it is said &quot;Noah walked with God&quot; and by Abraham it is said &quot;Walk in My ways&quot; and they all gained knowledge of the cycle of the sun and its great powers that teach about the rulership of The Lord of All and His Greatness&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; and Enoch stuck to The Higher Light from Whom came and were created the bodies of light on the fourth day.&quot; (my translation)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Either way, it seems that the point made by the Biblical author was to emphasize the monotheistic aspect of the figure and the removal of the polytheistic aspect.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; Though I am not sure based on what Jewish sources Zimmern says this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; Prof. Sid Z. Leiman in this [lecture][8], I believe, makes mention of the specific Dead Sea cult that used the specific calendar you mentioned. Yes, it was inherently different from the Pharisee calendar which was later accepted by the vast majority of the Jewish people, and not just because it was a solar calendar. The tradition I refer to is the one now commonly accepted by Orthodox Jews based on the Pharisee tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; Something similar was suggested about the figures of Tubal-Cain, Lemech and Naamah by the Jewish scholars [Malbim][9], [Shadal][10] and [Rabbi Immanuel Frances][11], as can be seen in the translations I brought in this [answer][12]. Both ideas - about Lemech and his descendants being the basis of later myths and Enoch and his descendants being thought of as the mythical rulers of the ancient Mesopotamian cities - are also brought by Rabbi Philip Biberfeld in his book [Universal Jewish History, vol. I][13].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; Midrash [Beresheet Rabbah 25:1][14]: &quot;Said Rabbi Aibo: Enoch was a hypocrite - sometimes he was righteous, sometimes he was a sinner. Said The Holy One, Blessed Is He: Until he is in his righteousness, I shall remove him [from this world]&quot; (my translation); [New Zohar, Genesis 842][15]: &quot;It is said in a baraita: Enoch son of Yared was a righteous man, but accepted upon himself to do evil. And The Holy One, Blessed Is He took him before his time, to do charity with him and to give him a good reward in the world to come.&quot; (my translation).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; Rabbi Karo is referring to a well-known midrash which states that Abraham, who, after all, [came from a family of idolaters][16], came to know of the one God by examining nature and the astronomical planetary bodies. (Midrash Hagadol, Lech Lecha 12).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Zimmern&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://archive.org/details/babylonianandhe00hutcgoog/page/n56/mode/2up&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Genesis.5.23?vhe=Tanach_with_Ta%27amei_Hamikra&amp;lang=bi&amp;aliyot=0&amp;p2=The_Midrash_of_Philo.5.23.2&amp;lang2=bi&amp;w2=all&amp;lang3=en&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahya_ben_Asher&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Genesis.5.23?vhe=Tanach_with_Ta%27amei_Hamikra&amp;lang=bi&amp;with=Rabbeinu%20Bahya&amp;lang2=en&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Karo&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Genesis.5.23?vhe=Tanach_with_Ta%27amei_Hamikra&amp;lang=bi&amp;with=Toledot%20Yitzchak&amp;lang2=en&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/726240/dr-shnayer-leiman/dead-sea-scrolls-ancient-jewish-texts-&amp;-modernity/&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malbim&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_David_Luzzatto&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Frances&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/6473/7095&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://www.hebrewbooks.org/4187&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Bereishit_Rabbah.25.1?lang=bi&amp;with=all&amp;lang2=en&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Zohar_Chadash%2C_Bereshit.842?vhe=Zohar_Chadash&amp;lang=bi&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Joshua.24.2?vhe=Tanach_with_Ta%27amei_Hamikra&amp;lang=he" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23249" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7659" RevisionGUID="86ddba3c-697d-40af-a706-1731740969ac" CreationDate="2020-10-07T16:54:05.497" UserId="7095" Text="**Gabriel:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are a number of midrashim that tie Gabriel to fire:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Devarim Rabbah 5:12][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...He imposes peace in His heights.&quot; Said Reish Lakish, Michael is entirely snow and **Gabriel is entirely fire**, and they stand one beside the other and do not harm one another.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Bamidbar Rabbah 12:8][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...&quot;Dominion and dread etc&quot; - the dominion, this is Michael and he is of snow, and the dread, this is **Gabriel and he is of fire**...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Shir Hashirim Rabbah 3:11][3]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Dashing to and fro [among] the creatures was something that looked like flares&quot; and this one doesn't put out that one and that one doesn't put out this one. Michael the lord of snow and **Gabriel the lord of fire** and this one doesn't put out that one and that one doesn't put out this one.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Midrash Tehillim 117:4][4]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...said to Him **Gabriel: I am the lord of fire**; I shall go and heat him up from the outside and cool him down on the inside and I shall make a miracle within a miracle...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and from the [Zohar 1:16a:4][5]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...And Gabriel, the Prince of His Left, Fire...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and [3:225a:11][6]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...And Gabriel who is the fire of intellect...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Michael:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As mentioned by @solsdottir and in the midrashim I brought about Gabriel, Michael was often connected to snow. However, there are other sources that connect him to water:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Zohar 1:16a:4][5]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...&quot;He makes peace in His heights&quot;. We learn that **Michael, the Prince of the Right Side of Hashem, water** and hail.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and [3:225a:11][6]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;&quot;...and Michael who is the waters of intellect...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Divrei Nagidim on the Hagaddah, Magid, Arami Oved Avi][7]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...and it is written: &quot;your prince, Michael&quot;...and these two angels, **Michael of water...and He raised Michael from water**...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Chiddushei Aggadot on tractate Berachot 4b][8]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Michael etc. **The essence of Michael is water**, on the right and in charge of grace...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Sefer Habahir 11][9]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...&quot;He imposes peace in His heights&quot; - comes to teach that Michael is the lord of the Right of The Holy One, Blessed Is He [and is of] water and hail...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Kli Yakar on Genesis 28:12][10]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...and as infers the [Recanati][11], Uriel lord of air, **Michael lord of water**, Raphael lord of earth and Gabriel lord of fire...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and there are many more kabbalistic or semi-kabbalistic sources that state the same.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Other angels:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Kli Yakar source brought above paraphrases the Recanati who stated that Uriel is related to air and Raphael to earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is likely based on this [Zohar][6]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...Uriel, who is air. Meaning the wind (or spirit) of intellect. With Raphael, who is ashes, meaning the dirt of intellect...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This same idea is brought several times by Shnei Luchot Habrit, for example, [here][12].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;Note: Other than the Zohar, all the sources were translated into English by myself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Devarim_Rabbah.5.12?vhe=Midrash_Rabbah_--_TE&amp;lang=en&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Bamidbar_Rabbah.12.8?vhe=Midrash_Rabbah_--_TE&amp;lang=en&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Shir_HaShirim_Rabbah.3.11.1?vhe=Midrash_Rabbah_--_TE&amp;lang=en&amp;p2=Ezekiel.1.14&amp;lang2=en&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Midrash_Tehillim.117.4?vhe=OYW&amp;lang=en&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Zohar.1.16a.4?vhe=New_Torat_Emet_Zohar&amp;lang=bi&amp;with=all&amp;lang2=en&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Zohar.3.225a.11?vhe=New_Torat_Emet_Zohar&amp;lang=en&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Divrei_Negidim_on_Pesach_Haggadah%2C_Magid%2C_First_Fruits_Declaration.18.1?vhe=Haggadah_shel_Pesach_LaMaharal,_London,_1960&amp;lang=bi&amp;with=all&amp;lang2=en&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Chidushei_Agadot_on_Berakhot.4b.4?vhe=Vilna_Edition&amp;lang=bi&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Sefer_HaBahir.11?vhe=Wikisource_Sefer_HaBahir&amp;lang=bi&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Kli_Yakar_on_Genesis.28.12.3?vhe=On_Your_Way&amp;lang=bi&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menahem_Recanati&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Shenei_Luchot_HaBerit%2C_Torah_Shebikhtav%2C_Sefer_Vayikra%2C_Torah_Ohr%2C_Vayikra.48?ven=Shney_Luchot_Habrit_by_Rabbi_Eliyahu_Munk&amp;lang=en" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23250" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7659" RevisionGUID="a841ecf7-2c75-4049-8b17-8149667e5635" CreationDate="2020-10-08T05:43:23.213" UserId="7095" Comment="added 88 characters in body" Text="**Gabriel:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are a number of midrashim that tie Gabriel to fire:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Devarim Rabbah 5:12][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...He imposes peace in His heights.&quot; Said Reish Lakish, Michael is entirely snow and **Gabriel is entirely fire**, and they stand one beside the other and do not harm one another.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Bamidbar Rabbah 12:8][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...&quot;Dominion and dread etc&quot; - the dominion, this is Michael and he is of snow, and the dread, this is **Gabriel and he is of fire**...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Shir Hashirim Rabbah 3:11][3]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Dashing to and fro [among] the creatures was something that looked like flares&quot; and this one doesn't put out that one and that one doesn't put out this one. Michael the lord of snow and **Gabriel the lord of fire** and this one doesn't put out that one and that one doesn't put out this one.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Midrash Tehillim 117:4][4]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...said to Him **Gabriel: I am the lord of fire**; I shall go and heat him up from the outside and cool him down on the inside and I shall make a miracle within a miracle...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and from the [Zohar 1:16a:4][5]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...And Gabriel, the Prince of His Left, Fire...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and [3:225a:11][6]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...And Gabriel who is the fire of intellect...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and there are many more kabbalistic or semi-kabbalistic sources that state the same.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Michael:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As mentioned by @solsdottir and in the midrashim I brought about Gabriel, Michael was often connected to snow. However, there are other sources that connect him to water:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Zohar 1:16a:4][5]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...&quot;He makes peace in His heights&quot;. We learn that **Michael, the Prince of the Right Side of Hashem, water** and hail.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and [3:225a:11][6]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;&quot;...and Michael who is the waters of intellect...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Divrei Nagidim on the Hagaddah, Magid, Arami Oved Avi][7]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...and it is written: &quot;your prince, Michael&quot;...and these two angels, **Michael of water...and He raised Michael from water**...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Chiddushei Aggadot on tractate Berachot 4b][8]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Michael etc. **The essence of Michael is water**, on the right and in charge of grace...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Sefer Habahir 11][9]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...&quot;He imposes peace in His heights&quot; - comes to teach that Michael is the lord of the Right of The Holy One, Blessed Is He [and is of] water and hail...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Kli Yakar on Genesis 28:12][10]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...and as infers the [Recanati][11], Uriel lord of air, **Michael lord of water**, Raphael lord of earth and Gabriel lord of fire...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and there are many more kabbalistic or semi-kabbalistic sources that state the same.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Other angels:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Kli Yakar source brought above paraphrases the Recanati who stated that Uriel is related to air and Raphael to earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is likely based on this [Zohar][6]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...Uriel, who is air. Meaning the wind (or spirit) of intellect. With Raphael, who is ashes, meaning the dirt of intellect...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This same idea is brought several times by Shnei Luchot Habrit, for example, [here][12].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;Note: Other than the Zohar, all the sources were translated into English by myself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Devarim_Rabbah.5.12?vhe=Midrash_Rabbah_--_TE&amp;lang=en&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Bamidbar_Rabbah.12.8?vhe=Midrash_Rabbah_--_TE&amp;lang=en&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Shir_HaShirim_Rabbah.3.11.1?vhe=Midrash_Rabbah_--_TE&amp;lang=en&amp;p2=Ezekiel.1.14&amp;lang2=en&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Midrash_Tehillim.117.4?vhe=OYW&amp;lang=en&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Zohar.1.16a.4?vhe=New_Torat_Emet_Zohar&amp;lang=bi&amp;with=all&amp;lang2=en&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Zohar.3.225a.11?vhe=New_Torat_Emet_Zohar&amp;lang=en&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Divrei_Negidim_on_Pesach_Haggadah%2C_Magid%2C_First_Fruits_Declaration.18.1?vhe=Haggadah_shel_Pesach_LaMaharal,_London,_1960&amp;lang=bi&amp;with=all&amp;lang2=en&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Chidushei_Agadot_on_Berakhot.4b.4?vhe=Vilna_Edition&amp;lang=bi&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Sefer_HaBahir.11?vhe=Wikisource_Sefer_HaBahir&amp;lang=bi&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Kli_Yakar_on_Genesis.28.12.3?vhe=On_Your_Way&amp;lang=bi&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menahem_Recanati&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Shenei_Luchot_HaBerit%2C_Torah_Shebikhtav%2C_Sefer_Vayikra%2C_Torah_Ohr%2C_Vayikra.48?ven=Shney_Luchot_Habrit_by_Rabbi_Eliyahu_Munk&amp;lang=en" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23251" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7659" RevisionGUID="71ac7990-9620-4a20-be2d-3991a16e7f2b" CreationDate="2020-10-08T14:07:12.353" UserId="7095" Comment="added 8 characters in body" Text="**Gabriel:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are a number of midrashim that tie Gabriel to fire:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Devarim Rabbah 5:12][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...He imposes peace in His heights.&quot; Said Reish Lakish, Michael is entirely snow and **Gabriel is entirely fire**, and they stand one beside the other and do not harm one another.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Bamidbar Rabbah 12:8][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...&quot;Dominion and dread etc&quot; - the dominion, this is Michael and he is of snow, and the dread, this is **Gabriel and he is of fire**...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Shir Hashirim Rabbah 3:11][3]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Dashing to and fro [among] the creatures was something that looked like flares&quot; and this one doesn't put out that one and that one doesn't put out this one. Michael the lord of snow and **Gabriel the lord of fire** and this one doesn't put out that one and that one doesn't put out this one.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Midrash Tehillim 117:4][4]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...said to Him **Gabriel: I am the lord of fire**; I shall go and heat him up from the outside and cool him down on the inside and I shall make a miracle within a miracle...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and from the [Zohar 1:16a:4][5]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...And Gabriel, the Prince of His Left, Fire...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and [3:225a:11][6]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...And Gabriel who is the fire of intellect...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and there are many more kabbalistic or semi-kabbalistic sources that state the same.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Michael:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As mentioned by @solsdottir and in the midrashim I brought about Gabriel, Michael was often connected to snow. However, there are other sources that connect him to water:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Zohar 1:16a:4][5]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...&quot;He makes peace in His heights&quot;. We learn that **Michael, the Prince of the Right Side of Hashem, water** and hail.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and [3:225a:11][6]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;&quot;...and Michael who is the waters of intellect...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Divrei Nagidim on the Hagaddah, Magid, Arami Oved Avi][7]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...and it is written: &quot;your prince, Michael&quot;...and these two angels, **Michael of water...and He raised Michael from water**...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Chiddushei Aggadot on tractate Berachot 4b][8]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Michael etc. **The essence of Michael is water**, on the right and in charge of grace...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Sefer Habahir 11][9]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...&quot;He imposes peace in His heights&quot; - comes to teach that Michael is the lord of the Right of The Holy One, Blessed Is He [and is of] water and hail...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Kli Yakar on Genesis 28:12][10]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...and as infers the [Recanati][11], Uriel lord of air, **Michael lord of water**, Raphael lord of earth and Gabriel lord of fire...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and there are many more kabbalistic or semi-kabbalistic sources that state the same.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Other angels:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Kli Yakar source brought above paraphrases the Recanati who stated that Uriel is related to air and Raphael to earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is likely based on this [Zohar][6]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...Uriel, who is air. Meaning the wind (or spirit) of intellect. With Raphael, who is ashes, meaning the dirt of intellect...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This same idea is brought several times by Shnei Luchot Habrit, for example, [here][12].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;Note: Other than the Zohar 1:16a:4, all the sources were translated into English by myself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Devarim_Rabbah.5.12?vhe=Midrash_Rabbah_--_TE&amp;lang=en&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Bamidbar_Rabbah.12.8?vhe=Midrash_Rabbah_--_TE&amp;lang=en&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Shir_HaShirim_Rabbah.3.11.1?vhe=Midrash_Rabbah_--_TE&amp;lang=en&amp;p2=Ezekiel.1.14&amp;lang2=en&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Midrash_Tehillim.117.4?vhe=OYW&amp;lang=en&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Zohar.1.16a.4?vhe=New_Torat_Emet_Zohar&amp;lang=bi&amp;with=all&amp;lang2=en&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Zohar.3.225a.11?vhe=New_Torat_Emet_Zohar&amp;lang=en&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Divrei_Negidim_on_Pesach_Haggadah%2C_Magid%2C_First_Fruits_Declaration.18.1?vhe=Haggadah_shel_Pesach_LaMaharal,_London,_1960&amp;lang=bi&amp;with=all&amp;lang2=en&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Chidushei_Agadot_on_Berakhot.4b.4?vhe=Vilna_Edition&amp;lang=bi&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Sefer_HaBahir.11?vhe=Wikisource_Sefer_HaBahir&amp;lang=bi&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Kli_Yakar_on_Genesis.28.12.3?vhe=On_Your_Way&amp;lang=bi&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menahem_Recanati&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Shenei_Luchot_HaBerit%2C_Torah_Shebikhtav%2C_Sefer_Vayikra%2C_Torah_Ohr%2C_Vayikra.48?ven=Shney_Luchot_Habrit_by_Rabbi_Eliyahu_Munk&amp;lang=en" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23252" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7660" RevisionGUID="e5218d96-1142-44f1-b3b7-ac469ac101f9" CreationDate="2020-10-08T14:12:01.973" UserId="5511" Text="The archangels are derived from older Mesopotamian stories. These stories were first written down by one of the earliest literate civilization of man, the Sumerian civilization over 5,500 years ago. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All archangel names end in &quot;el&quot;. This is derived from Sumerian *IL*, Akkadian *ELI* meaning &quot;high, above,highness&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Michael (Sumerian: Enki)** &#xD;&#xA;*Enki* is the Sumerian god of water, who in the epic *Gilgamesh* slays the dragon *Kur*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is the mythological basis of our common depiction of Michael slaying a dragon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Gabriel (Sumerian: Gibil)**&#xD;&#xA;*Gibil* in Sumerian mythology is the god of fire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/685XG.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23253" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7661" RevisionGUID="654abc3d-9e05-443e-ba2c-cbda4e67de6b" CreationDate="2020-10-09T22:18:20.040" UserId="3208" Text="I was reading Ritchie's Fabulae Faciles and it says of the Gorgon Medusa, &quot;Manus etiam ex aere factae erant.&quot; (&quot;Indeed, her hands were made out of bronze.&quot;)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the significance or symbolism of this?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23254" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7661" RevisionGUID="654abc3d-9e05-443e-ba2c-cbda4e67de6b" CreationDate="2020-10-09T22:18:20.040" UserId="3208" Text="What is the significance of Medusa having hands of bronze?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23255" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7661" RevisionGUID="654abc3d-9e05-443e-ba2c-cbda4e67de6b" CreationDate="2020-10-09T22:18:20.040" UserId="3208" Text="|medusa|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23256" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7662" RevisionGUID="8d1e0a4c-1345-42e9-85f9-f29f81814766" CreationDate="2020-10-10T01:33:17.007" UserId="2892" Text="Source of the material is: http://ritchieslatin.blogspot.com/2011_03_20_archive.html     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was confusing b/c [aere][1] only has canonical use as &quot;air&quot; or &quot;mist&quot;.  (Not an expert in Latin, but air was my first thought also, before even referencing.)  I suspect they meant [aerāmen][2], and a note specifies the [accusitive form, not the ablative][3], although that note uses &quot;aera&quot; as opposed to &quot;aere&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- If bronze was intended, think &quot;brazen&quot;, and the idea of Medusa's hands as deadly weapon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a fairly common metaphor in heroic literature, although offhand I can't think of other examples at present.  Nevertheless, weapons and armor were made of bronze, thus the &quot;bronze age&quot;.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm come across &quot;brazen&quot; in English language heroic literature and English translations of heroic literature, and it is typically used for the double meaning. [Brazen][4] here is defined as &quot;hardened effrontery&quot;, in the sense of transgression, thus something that can pierce or penetrate.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=aere&amp;la=la#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aentry%3Daeramen&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/aeramen&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.etymonline.com/word/brazen" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23258" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7663" RevisionGUID="b84b4bcd-a0c0-4101-b5f3-f273abc1338e" CreationDate="2020-10-10T02:11:07.407" UserId="2892" Text="A simple way to look at it is Titan are often associate with natural forces and phenomena, such as [Eos][1], &quot;Dawn&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The wiki for Eos may be confusing—there she is listed both as titan and god, but this is elucidating:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [Titans][2] are the order of god that is pre-Olympian specifically.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Helios][3], the sun, likewise, is one of the most famous titans.  [Tethys][4] &amp; [Oceanus][5] were embodiments of the sea.  Cronus is also a very famous titan, cognate with [Chronos][6], the embodiment of time, reinforced by his status as a god of harvest, which implies marking the passage of time from planting to ripening and harvest. Rhea, similarly is an embodiment of earth, with her name meaning &quot;ground&quot;, but even interpretations of her name as &quot;flow&quot; in the sense of &quot;discharge&quot; implies giving birth, as she is the mother of the Olympians. (Essentially, a secondary form of [Gaia][7], the mother of all, aka the  Earth.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even the etymology supports the idea of natural forces per the term [titanic][8], as something big and indestructible.  Usage predates the linked reference, with OED listing:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;1628   R. Knevet Στρατιοτικον sig. F3v   Titanicke pride, that God to his face dares&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;1838   Hesperian May 19/2   What would have become of one of your prosers in the Johnsonian circle?..In their titanic struggles he would have been regarded as an ‘unconsidered trifle’.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This categorization is not strict however, as [Mnemosyne][9] is also considered a titaness.  Thus we may regard titans as abstract forces or function of nature, which comprise and produce the phenomenal world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A good place to read about the creation of the universe in this context is Hesiod's [Theogony][10].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Aphrodite][11] may also be a special case, as, in the Hesiod, she pre-dates the Olympians, but was made an Olympian, later claimed to be a daughter of Zeus.  Aphrodite herself is the embodiment of the natural force of desire, and in this was was said to the the one goddess with power over mighty Zeus himself.  [Eros][12] is also considered to be both the oldest and youngest of the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Mythology is not an exact science;)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eos&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titans_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tethys_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceanus&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronos&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.etymonline.com/word/titanic&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mnemosyne&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0130&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphrodite&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eros#Cult_and_depiction" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23259" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7662" RevisionGUID="a2b1d478-86b0-4c3c-ad82-b8d86d1d11ea" CreationDate="2020-10-10T02:17:03.333" UserId="2892" Comment="deleted 341 characters in body" Text="Source of the material is: http://ritchieslatin.blogspot.com/2011_03_20_archive.html     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Think &quot;brazen&quot;, and the idea of Medusa's hands as deadly weapon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a fairly common metaphor in heroic literature, although offhand I can't think of other examples at present.  Nevertheless, weapons and armor were made of bronze, thus the &quot;bronze age&quot;.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm come across &quot;brazen&quot; in English language heroic literature and English translations of heroic literature, and it is typically used for the double meaning. [Brazen][4] here is defined as &quot;hardened effrontery&quot;, in the sense of transgression, thus something that can pierce or penetrate.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=aere&amp;la=la#lexicon&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aentry%3Daeramen&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/aeramen&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.etymonline.com/word/brazen" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23260" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7661" RevisionGUID="48564325-0f2c-4720-8c67-79ff7db1966e" CreationDate="2020-10-10T02:22:39.567" UserId="6920" Comment="formatting" Text="I was reading Ritchie's *Fabulae Faciles*, and it says of the Gorgon Medusa, &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Manus etiam ex aere factae erant. (&quot;Indeed, her hands were made out of bronze.&quot;)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the significance or symbolism of this?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23261" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="7661" RevisionGUID="48564325-0f2c-4720-8c67-79ff7db1966e" CreationDate="2020-10-10T02:22:39.567" Comment="Proposed by 6920 approved by 2892, 3208 edit id of 1839" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23262" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7661" RevisionGUID="d465bce0-7919-4245-8db1-2e90d01d3797" CreationDate="2020-10-10T02:24:41.430" UserId="3208" Comment="added 250 characters in body" Text="I was reading Ritchie's *Fabulae Faciles*, and it says of the Gorgon Medusa, &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Manus etiam ex aere factae erant. (&quot;Indeed, her hands were made out of bronze.&quot;)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the significance or symbolism of this?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that according to Apollodorus in the Bibliotheca all the Gorgons had bronze hands, but this is not explained. Robert Graves does offer some theories on the Gorgons, but I don't think he ever tried to explain why the Gorgons had bronze hands." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23263" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7662" RevisionGUID="a323682b-8770-4e31-98d0-56ecabc3349c" CreationDate="2020-10-10T02:27:48.097" UserId="2892" Comment="added 130 characters in body" Text="Source of the material is: http://ritchieslatin.blogspot.com/2011_03_20_archive.html     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Think &quot;brazen&quot;, and the idea of Medusa's hands as deadly weapon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a fairly common metaphor in heroic literature, and I've come across it in English language heroic literature and English translations of heroic literature, typically used for the double meaning. [Brazen][1] here is defined as &quot;hardened effrontery&quot;, in the sense of transgression, thus something that can pierce or penetrate established boundaries, such as the skin of an adversary.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Milton uses this in Paradise Lost: &quot;The Serpent suttl'st Beast of all the field, / Of huge extent somtimes, with brazen Eyes / And hairie Main terrific.&quot; (7.495‐97)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A direct reference to use of bronze in this manner may be to Homer: οὐρανὸς [χάλκεος][2], πολύχαλκος, ὄπα χάλκεον.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, weapons and armor were made of bronze, thus the &quot;bronze age&quot;.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.etymonline.com/word/brazen&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%87%CE%AC%CE%BB%CE%BA%CE%B5%CE%BF%CF%82" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23264" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7662" RevisionGUID="061ef0bc-dfca-41b0-b107-8517f1bee6d6" CreationDate="2020-10-10T02:34:04.600" UserId="2892" Comment="added 22 characters in body" Text="Source of the material is: http://ritchieslatin.blogspot.com/2011_03_20_archive.html     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Think &quot;brazen&quot;, and the idea of Medusa's hands as deadly weapon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a fairly common metaphor in heroic literature, and I've come across it in English language heroic literature and English translations of heroic literature, typically used for the double meaning. [Brazen][1] here is defined as &quot;hardened effrontery&quot;, in the sense of transgression, thus something that can pierce or penetrate established boundaries, such as the skin of an adversary.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Milton uses this in Paradise Lost: &quot;The Serpent suttl'st Beast of all the field, / Of huge extent somtimes, with brazen Eyes / And hairie Main terrific.&quot; (7.495‐97)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A direct reference to use of bronze in this manner may be to Homer: οὐρανὸς [χάλκεος][2], πολύχαλκος, ὄπα χάλκεον.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, weapons and armor were made of bronze, thus the &quot;bronze age&quot;.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.etymonline.com/word/brazen&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dxa%2Flkeos" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23265" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7664" RevisionGUID="9bddd32c-1e23-4504-9775-203df2031965" CreationDate="2020-10-10T02:38:06.023" UserId="2892" Text="I'd posit:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [The Bull of Heaven][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Slain by Gilgamesh.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gilgamesh is a demigod, but very specifically mortal. Heracles, by contrast, is deified as an Olympian once he burns away his mortal flesh.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_of_Heaven" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23266" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7662" RevisionGUID="9a9040ae-c423-446e-a904-5d2bcbc9d193" CreationDate="2020-10-10T02:51:51.580" UserId="2892" Comment="added 26 characters in body" Text="Source of the material is: http://ritchieslatin.blogspot.com/2011_03_20_archive.html     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Think &quot;brazen&quot;, and the idea of Medusa's hands as deadly weapon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a fairly common metaphor in heroic literature, and I've come across it in English language heroic literature and English translations of heroic literature, typically used for the double meaning. [Brazen][1] here is defined as &quot;hardened effrontery&quot;, in the sense of transgression, thus something that can pierce or penetrate established boundaries, such as the skin of an adversary.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Milton uses this in Paradise Lost: &quot;The Serpent suttl'st Beast of all the field, / Of huge extent somtimes, with brazen Eyes / And hairie Main terrific.&quot; (7.495‐97)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A direct reference to use of bronze in reference to body parts (here eyes) may be from Homer: οὐρανὸς [χάλκεος][2], πολύχαλκος, ὄπα χάλκεον.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, weapons and armor were made of bronze, thus the &quot;bronze age&quot;.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.etymonline.com/word/brazen&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dxa%2Flkeos" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23267" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7662" RevisionGUID="5b1d0e6f-e96b-4a2b-a2ef-4b3401147e57" CreationDate="2020-10-10T03:20:57.057" UserId="2892" Comment="added 694 characters in body" Text="Source of the material is: http://ritchieslatin.blogspot.com/2011_03_20_archive.html     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Think &quot;brazen&quot;, and the idea of Medusa's hands as deadly weapon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a fairly common metaphor in heroic literature, and I've come across it in English language heroic literature and English translations of heroic literature, typically used for the double meaning. [Brazen][1] here is defined as &quot;hardened effrontery&quot;, in the sense of transgression, thus something that can pierce or penetrate established boundaries, such as the skin of an adversary.  &#xD;&#xA;Weapons and armor were made of bronze, thus the &quot;bronze age&quot;, such that it connotes something hard and potentially deadly.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Milton uses this in Paradise Lost: &quot;The Serpent suttl'st Beast of all the field, / Of huge extent somtimes, with brazen Eyes / And hairie Main terrific.&quot; (7.495‐97)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A direct reference to use of bronze in reference to body parts (here eyes) may be from Homer: οὐρανὸς [χάλκεος][2], πολύχαλκος, ὄπα χάλκεον.&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;Although the source material is unreferenced, Graves translates as &quot;brazen claws&quot; [*The Greek Myths*, 33.b], thus one may interpret that it is not the hands, specifically, but the finger nails or literal claws, per Medusa's metamorphosis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A note on [aes][3]: It connotes any &quot;base&quot; mental (i.e. not silver or gold), and can mean iron.  But usage in literature supports the idea of &quot;brazen&quot; per bronze.  The [Lewis lexical entry][4] further elucidates: &quot;*ex aere statua* — As symbol of indomitable courage.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.etymonline.com/word/brazen&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dxa%2Flkeos&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0059:entry=aes&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0060:entry=aes" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23268" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7662" RevisionGUID="0ab57819-7573-462f-978e-a09d3986e50f" CreationDate="2020-10-10T03:27:19.920" UserId="2892" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="Source of the material is: http://ritchieslatin.blogspot.com/2011_03_20_archive.html     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Think &quot;brazen&quot;, and the idea of Medusa's hands as deadly weapon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a fairly common metaphor in heroic literature, and I've come across it in English language heroic literature and English translations of heroic literature, typically used for the double meaning. [Brazen][1] here is defined as &quot;hardened effrontery&quot;, in the sense of transgression, thus something that can pierce or penetrate established boundaries, such as the skin of an adversary.  &#xD;&#xA;Weapons and armor were made of bronze, thus the &quot;bronze age&quot;, such that it connotes something hard and potentially deadly.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Milton uses this in Paradise Lost: &quot;The Serpent suttl'st Beast of all the field, / Of huge extent somtimes, with brazen Eyes / And hairie Main terrific.&quot; (7.495‐97)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A direct reference to use of bronze in reference to body parts (here eyes) may be from Homer: οὐρανὸς [χάλκεος][2], πολύχαλκος, ὄπα χάλκεον.&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;Although the source material is unreferenced, Graves translates as &quot;brazen claws&quot; [*The Greek Myths*, 33.b], thus one may interpret that it is not the hands, specifically, but sharp fingernails or literal claws, per Medusa's metamorphosis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A note on [aes][3]: It connotes any &quot;base&quot; mental (i.e. not silver or gold), and can mean iron.  But usage in literature supports the idea of &quot;brazen&quot; per bronze.  The [Lewis lexical entry][4] further elucidates: &quot;*ex aere statua* — As symbol of indomitable courage.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.etymonline.com/word/brazen&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dxa%2Flkeos&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0059:entry=aes&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0060:entry=aes" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23269" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7662" RevisionGUID="d523dab2-bfef-45de-8b7f-97d132b9b371" CreationDate="2020-10-10T05:14:24.080" UserId="2892" Comment="added 585 characters in body" Text="Source of the material is: http://ritchieslatin.blogspot.com/2011_03_20_archive.html     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Think &quot;brazen&quot;, and the idea of Medusa's hands as deadly weapon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a fairly common metaphor in heroic literature, and I've come across it in English language heroic literature and English translations of heroic literature, typically used for the double meaning. [Brazen][1] here is defined as &quot;hardened effrontery&quot;, in the sense of transgression, thus something that can pierce or penetrate established boundaries, such as the skin of an adversary.  &#xD;&#xA;Weapons and armor were made of bronze, thus the &quot;bronze age&quot;, such that it connotes something hard and potentially deadly.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Milton uses this in Paradise Lost: &quot;The Serpent suttl'st Beast of all the field, / Of huge extent somtimes, with brazen Eyes / And hairie Main terrific.&quot; (7.495‐97)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here it might be blazing (usage of words related to bronze in many languages meant to convey brightness.)  The association of bronze with weapons draws a distinction with the other bright metals, gold and silver. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another usage is [Leviticus 26:19][2]: &quot;And I will break the pride of your power, and your heaven that is over your head shall be bronze, and the earth that is under you shall be iron.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here the usage is clearly meant to convey unyielding.  So too can Medusa's hands be assumed to be.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A direct reference to use of bronze in reference to body parts (here eyes) may be from Homer: οὐρανὸς [χάλκεος][3], πολύχαλκος, ὄπα χάλκεον. &lt;sub&gt;[OED, unsourced]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;Although the source material is unreferenced, Graves translates as &quot;brazen claws&quot; [*The Greek Myths*, 33.b], thus one may interpret that it is not the hands, specifically, but sharp fingernails or literal claws, per Medusa's metamorphosis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A note on [aes][4]: It connotes any &quot;base&quot; mental (i.e. not silver or gold), and can mean iron.  But usage in literature supports the idea of &quot;brazen&quot; per bronze.  The [Lewis lexical entry][5] further elucidates: &quot;*ex aere statua* — As symbol of indomitable courage.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.etymonline.com/word/brazen&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://biblehub.com/leviticus/26-19.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dxa%2Flkeos&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0059:entry=aes&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0060:entry=aes" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23270" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7659" RevisionGUID="44eefe1f-069a-4593-9e75-c9dd8f001981" CreationDate="2020-10-10T16:39:17.770" UserId="7095" Comment="Added another link." Text="**Gabriel:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are a number of midrashim that tie Gabriel to fire:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Devarim Rabbah 5:12][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...He imposes peace in His heights.&quot; Said Reish Lakish, Michael is entirely snow and **Gabriel is entirely fire**, and they stand one beside the other and do not harm one another.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Bamidbar Rabbah 12:8][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...&quot;Dominion and dread etc&quot; - the dominion, this is Michael and he is of snow, and the dread, this is **Gabriel and he is of fire**...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Shir Hashirim Rabbah 3:11][3]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Dashing to and fro [among] the creatures was something that looked like flares&quot; and this one doesn't put out that one and that one doesn't put out this one. Michael the lord of snow and **Gabriel the lord of fire** and this one doesn't put out that one and that one doesn't put out this one.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Midrash Tehillim 117:4][4]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...said to Him **Gabriel: I am the lord of fire**; I shall go and heat him up from the outside and cool him down on the inside and I shall make a miracle within a miracle...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and from the [Zohar 1:16a:4][5]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...And Gabriel, the Prince of His Left, Fire...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and [3:225a:11][6]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...And Gabriel who is the fire of intellect...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and there are many more kabbalistic or semi-kabbalistic sources that state the same.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Michael:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As mentioned by @solsdottir and in the midrashim I brought about Gabriel, Michael was often connected to snow. However, there are other sources that connect him to water:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Zohar 1:16a:4][5]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...&quot;He makes peace in His heights&quot;. We learn that **Michael, the Prince of the Right Side of Hashem, water** and hail.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and [3:225a:11][6]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;&quot;...and Michael who is the waters of intellect...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Divrei Nagidim on the Hagaddah, Magid, Arami Oved Avi][7]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...and it is written: &quot;your prince, Michael&quot;...and these two angels, **Michael of water...and He raised Michael from water**...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Chiddushei Aggadot on tractate Berachot 4b][8]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Michael etc. **The essence of Michael is water**, on the right and in charge of grace...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Sefer Habahir 11][9]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...&quot;He imposes peace in His heights&quot; - comes to teach that Michael is the lord of the Right of The Holy One, Blessed Is He [and is of] water and hail...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Kli Yakar on Genesis 28:12][10]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...and as infers the [Recanati][11], Uriel lord of air, **Michael lord of water**, Raphael lord of earth and Gabriel lord of fire...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and there are many more kabbalistic or semi-kabbalistic sources that state the same.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Other angels:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Kli Yakar source brought above paraphrases the Recanati who stated that Uriel is related to air and Raphael to earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is likely based on this [Zohar][6]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...Uriel, who is air. Meaning the wind (or spirit) of intellect. With Raphael, who is ashes, meaning the dirt of intellect...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This same idea is brought several times by [Shnei Luchot Habrit][12], for example, [here][13].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;Note: Other than the Zohar 1:16a:4, all the sources were translated into English by myself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Devarim_Rabbah.5.12?vhe=Midrash_Rabbah_--_TE&amp;lang=en&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Bamidbar_Rabbah.12.8?vhe=Midrash_Rabbah_--_TE&amp;lang=en&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Shir_HaShirim_Rabbah.3.11.1?vhe=Midrash_Rabbah_--_TE&amp;lang=en&amp;p2=Ezekiel.1.14&amp;lang2=en&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Midrash_Tehillim.117.4?vhe=OYW&amp;lang=en&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Zohar.1.16a.4?vhe=New_Torat_Emet_Zohar&amp;lang=bi&amp;with=all&amp;lang2=en&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Zohar.3.225a.11?vhe=New_Torat_Emet_Zohar&amp;lang=en&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Divrei_Negidim_on_Pesach_Haggadah%2C_Magid%2C_First_Fruits_Declaration.18.1?vhe=Haggadah_shel_Pesach_LaMaharal,_London,_1960&amp;lang=bi&amp;with=all&amp;lang2=en&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Chidushei_Agadot_on_Berakhot.4b.4?vhe=Vilna_Edition&amp;lang=bi&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Sefer_HaBahir.11?vhe=Wikisource_Sefer_HaBahir&amp;lang=bi&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Kli_Yakar_on_Genesis.28.12.3?vhe=On_Your_Way&amp;lang=bi&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menahem_Recanati&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_Horowitz#Works&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Shenei_Luchot_HaBerit%2C_Torah_Shebikhtav%2C_Sefer_Vayikra%2C_Torah_Ohr%2C_Vayikra.48?ven=Shney_Luchot_Habrit_by_Rabbi_Eliyahu_Munk&amp;lang=en" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23271" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7665" RevisionGUID="d03c8e7d-1f2a-4983-b1c3-836d268e1451" CreationDate="2020-10-10T22:18:39.287" UserId="7305" Text="The Giants or Gigantes are actually from Greek mythology the word means born from earth, which means they were the offspring of Gaia and the blood of Uranus after he was killed by Cronus. They were originally man-sized and looked like men. But in later stories they were depicted with snakes for legs. And after that pepple started confusing them with the Titans whom were the children of Gaia and Uranus before them. The Titans were of extremely large size. That's why to this day we think of giants as large creatures. And why we think the Jotun are giants even though they aren't because they're a race from Greek mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23272" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7665" RevisionGUID="6266335d-edb7-4480-856a-30a9d5c7a44e" CreationDate="2020-10-10T22:26:21.663" UserId="7305" Comment="deleted 4 characters in body" Text="The Giants or Gigantes are actually from Greek mythology. Etymologically the word means born from earth, which means they were the offspring of Gaia and the blood of Uranus after he was killed by Cronus. They were originally man-sized and looked like men. But in later stories they were depicted with snakes for legs. And after that people started confusing them with the Titans whom were the children of Gaia and Uranus before them. Now the Titans were of extremely large size and that's why to this day we have the misconception of giants as large creatures. And why we think the Jotun are giants even though they aren't." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23273" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7666" RevisionGUID="2e8e22d6-f3ca-4b6a-9c94-e538a871dd08" CreationDate="2020-10-11T01:47:11.917" UserId="7306" Text="Enkidu is the direct creation of the gods so they have more control over him than Gilgamesh.If they were to choose who to kill.Enkidu will be easier to kill than Gilgamesh Sense they can just make him return to clay but if they were to kill Gilgamesh they will have to probably have to send someone or something to kill him and plus the gods still need a bridge that connect the earth and the heavens and also the goddess Ninsun will probably not agree because Gilgamesh is his sun." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23274" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1429" RevisionGUID="5a53cb1b-5bc6-44de-9ef7-542d451f1949" CreationDate="2020-10-11T04:32:03.327" UserId="7095" Comment="Changed came to come in the title." Text="How did the angels Michael and Gabriel come to be associated with water and fire?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23275" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1429" RevisionGUID="5a53cb1b-5bc6-44de-9ef7-542d451f1949" CreationDate="2020-10-11T04:32:03.327" Comment="Proposed by 7095 approved by 5726, 2682 edit id of 1840" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23276" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7667" RevisionGUID="a86e8027-53aa-4883-91e1-bf6980a42f40" CreationDate="2020-10-11T11:43:49.667" UserId="5511" Text="In addition to @DukeZhou 's excellent answer, this description is already found in the original Greek text of Hesiod's &quot;Shield of Heracles&quot; 223-4:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; εἶχον δὲ αἱ Γοργόνες κεφαλὰς μὲν περιεσπειραμένας φολίσι δρακόντων, ὀδόντας&#xD;&#xA;&gt; δὲ μεγάλους ὡς συῶν, **καὶ χεῖρας χαλκᾶς**, καὶ πτέρυγας χρυσᾶς, δι’ ὧν&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ἐπέτοντο. τοὺς δὲ ἰδόντας λίθους ἐποίουν. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; But the Gorgons had heads twined about with the scales of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dragons, and great tusks like swine's, **and brazen hands**, and golden&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wings, by which they flew; and they turned to stone such as beheld&#xD;&#xA;&gt; them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*χεῖρας* is hands, *χαλκᾶς* is likely poetically derived from *χᾰλκῖτῐς*, &quot;copper-ore&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the time of writing, bronze was the toughest material that could be forged in the Greek world." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23278" PostHistoryTypeId="36" PostId="7668" RevisionGUID="dccd7c90-d4e4-4648-84b9-32a5980e4b52" CreationDate="2020-10-11T22:01:50.817" UserId="-1" Comment="from https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/61456/was-aaru-considered-part-of-the-duat-underworld-in-ancient-egypt" />
  <row Id="23279" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7668" RevisionGUID="cf4f6517-d1a3-4484-93cd-f2e2180d0b3e" CreationDate="2020-10-11T21:17:20.017" UserDisplayName="crispyduck" Text="The sources I've found don't make a clear statement of whether Aaru was formally considered part of the Duat or distinct from it. I'm trying to understand if the deceased pass through the Duat and then move on to Aaru, or if they remain in the underworld of which Aaru is a part." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23280" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7668" RevisionGUID="cf4f6517-d1a3-4484-93cd-f2e2180d0b3e" CreationDate="2020-10-11T21:17:20.017" UserDisplayName="crispyduck" Text="Was Aaru considered part of the Duat (underworld) in ancient Egypt?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23281" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7668" RevisionGUID="cf4f6517-d1a3-4484-93cd-f2e2180d0b3e" CreationDate="2020-10-11T21:17:20.017" UserDisplayName="crispyduck" Text="|untagged|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23282" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7668" RevisionGUID="90cfaac3-aa56-433a-b294-b1938eb237af" CreationDate="2020-10-12T07:11:14.197" UserId="7132" Comment="Added links to the Wikipedia articles on Aaru and Duat, and retagged question" Text="The sources I've found don't make a clear statement of whether [Aaru][1] was formally considered part of the [Duat][2] or distinct from it. I'm trying to understand if the deceased pass through the Duat and then move on to Aaru, or if they remain in the underworld of which Aaru is a part.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaru&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duat" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23283" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="7668" RevisionGUID="90cfaac3-aa56-433a-b294-b1938eb237af" CreationDate="2020-10-12T07:11:14.197" UserId="7132" Comment="Added links to the Wikipedia articles on Aaru and Duat, and retagged question" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23284" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="7668" RevisionGUID="90cfaac3-aa56-433a-b294-b1938eb237af" CreationDate="2020-10-12T07:11:14.197" Comment="Proposed by 7132 approved by 5726, 7310 edit id of 1841" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23285" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7669" RevisionGUID="5fc7ab32-9c97-4ae3-ad70-b800193d891e" CreationDate="2020-10-12T07:42:20.993" UserId="7095" Text="In the Book of Kings it says:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;He [King Josiah] did away with the horses that the kings of Judah had dedicated to the sun, at the entrance of the House of the LORD, near the chamber of the eunuch Nathan-melech, which was in the precincts. He burned the chariots of the sun. ([2:23:11][1])&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I was wondering what horses symbolized with regards to Canaanite sun worship. Was it like the Greek belief that the sun was pulled around by a chariot with horses by Helios or Apollo during the day  (as may be evidenced by the rest of the verse), or was there something else?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; Just a couple of days ago [I found out][2] that at Tel-Motza a [Judean temple][3] had been found. The temple's entrance faced the east, where the sun rises and a horse statue had been found aong other items. I thought that perhaps this meant that this was a site of sun worship, similar to what's described in [Ezekiel 8:16][4]: &quot;Then He brought me into the inner court of the House of the LORD, and there, at the entrance to the Temple of the LORD, between the portico and the altar, were about twenty-five men, their backs to the Temple of the LORD and their faces to the east; they were bowing low to the sun in the east.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][5]][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Picture from the [site][6] of the Israeli Antiquities Authority)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/II_Kings.23.11?vhe=Tanach_with_Ta%27amei_Hamikra&amp;lang=en&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/117862/how-does-the-motza-temple-fit-into-our-tradition&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tel_Motza_temple&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Ezekiel.8.16?vhe=Tanach_with_Ta%27amei_Hamikra&amp;lang=en&amp;with=all&amp;lang2=en&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/9RPRT.png&#xD;&#xA;[6]: http://www.antiquities.org.il/article_heb.aspx?sec_id=25&amp;subj_id=240&amp;id=1974" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23286" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7669" RevisionGUID="5fc7ab32-9c97-4ae3-ad70-b800193d891e" CreationDate="2020-10-12T07:42:20.993" UserId="7095" Text="Symbolism of horses in Canaanite sun worship" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23287" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7669" RevisionGUID="5fc7ab32-9c97-4ae3-ad70-b800193d891e" CreationDate="2020-10-12T07:42:20.993" UserId="7095" Text="|symbolism|bible|sun|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23288" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7670" RevisionGUID="147328c3-94fa-4e2c-8e1d-a66c2f454b78" CreationDate="2020-10-12T09:51:19.667" UserId="5511" Text="There is no uniform answer to this, since the concept of *Duat* varies between different textual sources. What is known of the *Duat* derives principally from funerary texts such as the *Book of Gates*, *the Book of Caverns*, the *Coffin Texts*, *the Amduat*, and *the Book of the Dead*. Each of these documents fulfilled a different purpose and give a different conception of the *Duat*, and different texts are inconsistent with one another. Surviving texts differ in age and origin, and there likely was never a single uniform conception of the Duat, as is the case of many theological concepts in ancient Egypt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Amduat* contains a &quot;map&quot; of the Duat:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *duat* in this map is divided into regions, largely corresponding to an hour our nightly travel of Ra's sun-barge:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In hour 1 the sun god enters the western horizon (*akhet*) which is a transition between day and night.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In hours 2 and 3 he passes through an abundant watery world called '*Wernes*' and the '*Waters of Osiris*'.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In hour 4 he reaches *Imhet* the difficult sandy realm of *Seker*, the underworld hawk deity, where he encounters dark zig zag pathways which he has to negotiate, being dragged on a snake-boat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In hour 5 he discovers the tomb of Osiris which is an enclosure beneath which is hidden a lake of fire, the tomb is covered by a pyramid like mound (identified with the goddess Isis) and on top of which Isis and Nephthys have alighted in the form of two kites (birds of prey).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In the sixth hour the most significant event in the underworld occurs. The *ba* (soul) of Ra unites with his own body, or alternatively with the *ba* of Osiris within the circle formed by the *mehen* serpent. This event is the point at which the sun begins its regeneration; it is a moment of great significance, but also danger.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In hour 7 the adversary *Apep* (Apophis) lies in wait and has to be subdued in chains by the magic of Isis and Ser, and the strength of Serqet, who is assisted by the god Her-Tesu-F.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In hour 8 the sun god opens the doors of the tomb and Horus calls upon a monstrous serpent with the unquenchable fire to destroy the enemies of his father, Osiris, by burning their corpses and cooking their souls.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In hour 9 they leave the sandy island of Seker by rowing vigorously back into the waters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In hour 10 the regeneration process continues through immersion in the waters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In hour 11 the god's eyes (a symbol for his health and well being) are fully regenerated.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In hour 12 he enters the eastern horizon ready to rise again as the new day's sun.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Once the deceased finished their journey through the underworld, they arrived at the Hall of Maat. Here they would undergo the Weighting of the Heart ceremony where their purity would be the determining factor in whether they would be allowed to enter the Kingdom of Osiris. So in the *Amduat* the *Aaru* is not considered part of the *Duat*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/aLdse.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23289" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7671" RevisionGUID="8c637160-1705-4bf8-8206-b2946a4fca87" CreationDate="2020-10-12T09:59:51.507" UserId="5511" Text="This stems from the worship of *Shapash* (also called *Shapsh*, *Shapshu* or sometimes *Shemesh*), the Canaanite goddess of the sun.  She is not to be confused with the Akkadian sun god, *Shamash*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Epic of *Baal*, *Shapash* plays an important part in the plot, as she interacts with all of the main characters, and in the end she is favourable to *Baal*'s position as king.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Worshiping *Shemesh* was said to include bowing to the east, in the direction of the sun, as well as rituals related to horses and chariots, which were associated with her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Book of Kings describes the prohibition of this worship by King Josiah. The Bible in general attempts to portray the sun non-anthropomorphically or as representing Yahweh's power. *Shapash* is usually substituted for euphemisms like *or* (light), and it appears that sun worship, even in an Yahwist way, was avoided at all costs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23290" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7672" RevisionGUID="5916172d-ec45-4ac1-9877-22c20e37ef7a" CreationDate="2020-10-12T11:11:19.657" UserId="7095" Text="A friend who served in the IDF Navy told me that some soldiers there believed it was bad luck to whistle while at sea, because it might infuriate Neptune (supposedly it was like whistling at his wife or something).&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Googling whistling and sailor superstitions brought up some results, but nothing that connected Neptune or Poseidon to this. Whistling apparently helps bring strong winds that are good for sailing ([source][1])([source][2]) but may also cause storms. ([source][3])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I was wondering if there was any historical basis for this superstition or is it some niche, modern invention made by taking a few different superstitions and slapping them together?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; We were both aware of the irony of this superstition existing in a country that's based on an ethnic-religious group whose religion is one of the oldest monotheistic ones around. As such, he told me that he used to whistle out at sea just to annoy the superstitious soldiers and officers and even did it on the comms link a number of time so officers on other boats would hear it too. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.onboardonline.com/superyacht-news/features/nautical-superstitions-/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://dtmag.com/thelibrary/seafaring-superstitions-marine-myth-rituals-explored/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailors%27_superstitions#Whistling" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23291" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7672" RevisionGUID="5916172d-ec45-4ac1-9877-22c20e37ef7a" CreationDate="2020-10-12T11:11:19.657" UserId="7095" Text="Refraining from whistling while out at sea" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23292" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7672" RevisionGUID="5916172d-ec45-4ac1-9877-22c20e37ef7a" CreationDate="2020-10-12T11:11:19.657" UserId="7095" Text="|history|nautical-mythology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23293" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="7672" RevisionGUID="c843a34e-6590-4e8b-a5b3-2e03303815d2" CreationDate="2020-10-12T11:24:57.153" UserId="7095" Comment="edited tags" Text="|history|superstition|nautical-mythology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23294" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7672" RevisionGUID="e8a7e636-2ab3-43a6-98cf-cc6064588d2d" CreationDate="2020-10-12T13:32:05.080" UserId="7095" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="A friend who served in the IDF Navy told me that some soldiers there believed it was bad luck to whistle while at sea, because it might infuriate Neptune. Supposedly it was like whistling at his wife or something.&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Googling whistling and sailor superstitions brought up some results, but nothing that connected Neptune or Poseidon to this. Whistling apparently helps bring strong winds that are good for sailing ([source][1])([source][2]) but may also cause storms. ([source][3])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I was wondering if there was any historical basis for this superstition or is it some niche, modern invention made by taking a few different superstitions and slapping them together?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; We were both aware of the irony of this superstition existing in a country that's based on an ethnic-religious group whose religion is one of the oldest monotheistic ones around. As such, he told me that he used to whistle out at sea just to annoy the superstitious soldiers and officers and even did it on the comms link a number of time so officers on other boats would hear it too. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.onboardonline.com/superyacht-news/features/nautical-superstitions-/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://dtmag.com/thelibrary/seafaring-superstitions-marine-myth-rituals-explored/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailors%27_superstitions#Whistling" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23295" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5450" RevisionGUID="3ca46296-6ef8-42ea-a838-500d6b202089" CreationDate="2020-10-12T20:26:31.877" UserId="5726" Comment="Clearer sentencing and nice illustration from Wikipedia added." Text="The 11th century Christian missionary Adam of Bremen wrote, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **&quot;Thor, they say, presides over the air, he governs the thunder and lightning. the winds and rains.&quot;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Norse believed that during a thunderstorm, Thor rode through the heavens on his chariot pulled forward by the goats [Tanngrisnir][1] (&quot;gap-tooth&quot;) and [Tanngnjóstr][1] (&quot;tooth grinder&quot;). Lightning dashed whenever he threw his hammer Mjölnir.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can get some good information about the viking age from this treatise.&#xD;&#xA;[Wikipedia to Gesta Hammaburgensis Ecclesiae Pontificum][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Gesta Hammaburgensis Ecclesiae Pontificum][3]. (direct link)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Netherlands Thor is called Donar (West German Thor), and his story is that when there was a thunderstorm Donar rode his chariot across the sky while slamming his hammer against the clouds and by the power of his hits producing lightning. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that Donar slams the clouds and does not actually throw his hammer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![illustration of Donar/Thor riding his chariot through the sky, pulled by his two goats][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanngrisnir_and_Tanngnj%C3%B3str&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesta_Hammaburgensis_ecclesiae_pontificum&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://archive.org/stream/gestahammaburgen00adamuoft#page/n5/mode/2up&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/vh7Lz.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23296" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7662" RevisionGUID="6ea59e16-336e-4ef4-94a6-61c4949cadc9" CreationDate="2020-10-13T01:23:30.053" UserId="2892" Comment="Added a link to Apollodorus mention of the bronze hands of the Gorgons" Text="Source of the material is: http://ritchieslatin.blogspot.com/2011_03_20_archive.html     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Think &quot;brazen&quot;, and the idea of Medusa's hands as deadly weapon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is a fairly common metaphor in heroic literature, and I've come across it in English language heroic literature and English translations of heroic literature, typically used for the double meaning. [Brazen][1] here is defined as &quot;hardened effrontery&quot;, in the sense of transgression, thus something that can pierce or penetrate established boundaries, such as the skin of an adversary.  &#xD;&#xA;Weapons and armor were made of bronze, thus the &quot;bronze age&quot;, such that it connotes something hard and potentially deadly.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Milton uses this in Paradise Lost: &quot;The Serpent suttl'st Beast of all the field, / Of huge extent somtimes, with brazen Eyes / And hairie Main terrific.&quot; (7.495‐97)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here it might be blazing (usage of words related to bronze in many languages meant to convey brightness.)  The association of bronze with weapons draws a distinction with the other bright metals, gold and silver. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another usage is [Leviticus 26:19][2]: &quot;And I will break the pride of your power, and your heaven that is over your head shall be bronze, and the earth that is under you shall be iron.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here the usage is clearly meant to convey unyielding.  So too can Medusa's hands be assumed to be.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A direct reference to use of bronze in reference to body parts (here eyes) may be from Homer: οὐρανὸς [χάλκεος][3], πολύχαλκος, ὄπα χάλκεον. &lt;sub&gt;[OED, unsourced]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;Although the source material is unreferenced, Graves translates as &quot;brazen claws&quot; [*The Greek Myths*, 33.b], thus one may interpret that it is not the hands, specifically, but sharp fingernails or literal claws, per Medusa's metamorphosis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A note on [aes][4]: It connotes any &quot;base&quot; mental (i.e. not silver or gold), and can mean iron. The [Lewis lexical entry][5] further elucidates: &quot;*ex aere statua* — As symbol of indomitable courage.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Usage in literature supports the idea of &quot;brazen&quot; per bronze, and [Apollodorus][6] specifically uses the term [χάλκεος][7].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.etymonline.com/word/brazen&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://biblehub.com/leviticus/26-19.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dxa%2Flkeos&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0059:entry=aes&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0060:entry=aes&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DLibrary%3Abook%3D2%3Achapter%3D4%3Asection%3D2&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dxa%2Flkeos" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23300" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7674" RevisionGUID="d6e44030-5d82-43cf-92bb-916ea1aeadb0" CreationDate="2020-10-14T00:24:33.163" UserId="2892" Text="I use the archaic translation of his name, now preferred as [Li Bai  李白][1].  Although a historical figure, Chinese history and mythology are considered to have been comingled prior to modern scholarship.  (Think founding myths of nations.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What I am really asking is:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Is there a tradition of warrior poets in Chinese myth and history? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, why might Li Po himself, as a legendary figure, have carried a sword?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Bai" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23301" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7674" RevisionGUID="d6e44030-5d82-43cf-92bb-916ea1aeadb0" CreationDate="2020-10-14T00:24:33.163" UserId="2892" Text="Why did Li Po carry a sword?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23302" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7674" RevisionGUID="d6e44030-5d82-43cf-92bb-916ea1aeadb0" CreationDate="2020-10-14T00:24:33.163" UserId="2892" Text="|chinese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23303" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7675" RevisionGUID="e032a7fc-0484-4db0-b944-927f82ae2d39" CreationDate="2020-10-14T00:37:42.740" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23304" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7675" RevisionGUID="e032a7fc-0484-4db0-b944-927f82ae2d39" CreationDate="2020-10-14T00:37:42.740" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23305" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7676" RevisionGUID="2ae0b35a-1018-456d-9800-b40ba668abaf" CreationDate="2020-10-14T00:37:42.740" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23306" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7676" RevisionGUID="2ae0b35a-1018-456d-9800-b40ba668abaf" CreationDate="2020-10-14T00:37:42.740" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23307" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7677" RevisionGUID="2631dc5b-2be0-45a3-abfb-6501d570fe07" CreationDate="2020-10-14T11:07:01.683" UserId="5511" Text="Yes, there is an Asian tradition of warrior poets, but the historical Li Bai is not one of them. The myth of *Li Bai the wandering swordsman* is a fairly recent invention. The strongest historical association with swords comes from the Tang expression &quot;The Three Wonders&quot;: Li Bai's poetry, [Pei Min][1]'s swordplay, and Zhang Xu's calligraphy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Li Bai was most likely born during the [Wu Zhou interregnum][2] of the Tang dynasty. The Tang dynasty's founders were the Li (李) family. His parents were not part of the imperial court, but they were prosperous merchants. Li Bai in several of his writings claimed to be related to the imperial Tang family. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Li Bai was almost certainly trained in swordmanship, as would be required of a son of a prosperous house. Legend says in 724 to continue his study of the sword, he received the Longquan sword from his father, left his relatives, and moved to Shandong to study under a famous master General.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is certain is that Li Bai had a lifelong admiration for the warrior class. Many of his poems reflect this, especially the [poem 俠客行][3] &quot;Travels of a knight errant&quot;. It is likely from this poem that the later equation of Li Bai with an actual warrior-poet stems.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pei_Min&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhou_dynasty_(690%E2%80%93705)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.oocities.org/sgoertzen/Chinese/mcgb.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23308" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7678" RevisionGUID="846a75f6-3f5e-458f-abef-dc8f1bbea534" CreationDate="2020-10-15T02:19:51.993" UserId="2892" Text="The question derives from oral &amp; written history, and an autobiographical quote attributed to the poet himself:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When I was fifteen, I was fond of sword play, and with that art I challenged quite a few great men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[*[Four Seasons of T'ang Poetry][1]*, John C.H. Wu]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Chinese mythical tradition, this would certainly render him a member of the &quot;Chivalrous Society&quot; of Chinese knight errants ([Youxia][2]), similar to [Song Jiang][3].  (Song is arguably the least proficient warrior of the [108][4], but the leader per his superior virtue in the context of the times.  Such virtue in Chinese mythology is typically linked to scholarship and knowledge of the Classics, which includes the [Book of Songs][5]. Literary style in composition was a factor in [Imperial examinations][6].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On why it is consistent that he would have carried a sword:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Li Bai was a wanderer, and roads at the time were dangerous, such that a traveller, particularly one who might, via circumstance, be traveling alone, would require protection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Li became a Taoist after being banished from the court of Chang An, and the Taoist and martial traditions of China are closely linked back to antiquity, certainly in the classics of literature.  [See also: [Wudang Mountains][7], modern works &amp; historical figures such as *[The Major Methods of Wudang Sword][8]* and &quot;[Miracle Sword Li][9]&quot;, and the [extant martial practice][10], which also includes an [active Wudang Temple][11] teaching the Taoist arts.]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Li Bai wrote poems mocking his detractors, such that he might have gotten into situations requiring being able to defend himself.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Li Bai is well known for his love of wine, and drinking tends to loosen one's lips, such that one might be called upon to defend oneself physically.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Speaking from personal experience there;)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Li Bai wrote poems of political and social protest, which legend holds he might even have scrawled on the walls of tea houses in fits of fervor, requiring subsequent quick exits from town in the dead of night.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Li Bai was said to have served as staff advisor to Prince Yong in the civil war between in the mid 6th century, which would have included battlefield situations.  (Note that Socrates participated in combat in the [Peloponnesian War][12], a not uncommon circumstance for people in ancient times.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The expression &quot;Three wonders&quot; of the Tang era denotes &quot;Li Bai's poetry, Pei Min's swordplay, and Zhang Xu's calligraphy&quot;.  As Li was acknowledged as skilled in calligraphy, it's not a stretch to presume he was also a skilled swordsman, all three endeavors being high art forms in Chinese culture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=FUnRAgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT55&amp;lpg=PT55&amp;dq=When%20I%20was%20fifteen,%20I%20was%20fond%20of%20sword%20play,%20and%20with%20that%20art%20I%20challenged%20quite%20a%20few%20great%20men&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=6Tfts_AGLa&amp;sig=ACfU3U2JxA6bzCJhvr8Fs8EAQ9ZXgiwxmw&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwiboYOzurXsAhXApXIEHWpkCaQQ6AEwAXoECAgQAg#v=onepage&amp;q=When%20I%20was%20fifteen%2C%20I%20was%20fond%20of%20sword%20play%2C%20and%20with%20that%20art%20I%20challenged%20quite%20a%20few%20great%20men&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youxia&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_Jiang&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Water_Margin_characters#108_Stars_of_Destiny&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_of_Poetry&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_examination&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wudang_Mountains&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.penguin.com.au/books/major-methods-of-wudang-sword-9781583942390&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Jinglin&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wudang_Sword&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://fiveimmortals.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates#Military_service" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23309" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7678" RevisionGUID="8b52f66b-96dd-4eb5-805c-981a4a420515" CreationDate="2020-10-15T02:50:44.043" UserId="2892" Comment="accidentally listed the 8th century as the 6th--dyslexia!" Text="The question derives from oral &amp; written history, and an autobiographical quote attributed to the poet himself:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When I was fifteen, I was fond of sword play, and with that art I challenged quite a few great men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[*[Four Seasons of T'ang Poetry][1]*, John C.H. Wu]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Chinese mythical tradition, this would certainly render him a member of the &quot;Chivalrous Society&quot; of Chinese knight errants ([Youxia][2]), similar to [Song Jiang][3].  (Song is arguably the least proficient warrior of the [108][4], but the leader per his superior virtue in the context of the times.  Such virtue in Chinese mythology is typically linked to scholarship and knowledge of the Classics, which includes the [Book of Songs][5]. Literary style in composition was a factor in [Imperial examinations][6].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On why it is consistent that he would have carried a sword:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Li Bai was a wanderer, and roads at the time were dangerous, such that a traveller, particularly one who might, via circumstance, be traveling alone, would require protection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Li became a Taoist after being banished from the court of Chang An, and the Taoist and martial traditions of China are closely linked back to antiquity, certainly in the classics of literature.  [See also: [Wudang Mountains][7], modern works &amp; historical figures such as *[The Major Methods of Wudang Sword][8]* and &quot;[Miracle Sword Li][9]&quot;, and the [extant martial practice][10], which also includes an [active Wudang Temple][11] teaching the Taoist arts.]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Li Bai wrote poems mocking his detractors, such that he might have gotten into situations requiring being able to defend himself.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Li Bai is well known for his love of wine, and drinking tends to loosen one's lips, such that one might be called upon to defend oneself physically.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Speaking from personal experience there;)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Li Bai wrote poems of political and social protest, which legend holds he might even have scrawled on the walls of tea houses in fits of fervor, requiring subsequent quick exits from town in the dead of night.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Li Bai was said to have served as staff advisor to Prince Yong in the civil war in the mid 8th century, which would have included battlefield situations.  (Note that Socrates participated in combat in the [Peloponnesian War][12], a not uncommon circumstance for people in ancient times.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The expression &quot;Three wonders&quot; of the Tang era denotes &quot;Li Bai's poetry, Pei Min's swordplay, and Zhang Xu's calligraphy&quot;.  As Li was acknowledged as skilled in calligraphy, it's not a stretch to presume he was also a skilled swordsman, all three endeavors being high art forms in Chinese culture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=FUnRAgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT55&amp;lpg=PT55&amp;dq=When%20I%20was%20fifteen,%20I%20was%20fond%20of%20sword%20play,%20and%20with%20that%20art%20I%20challenged%20quite%20a%20few%20great%20men&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=6Tfts_AGLa&amp;sig=ACfU3U2JxA6bzCJhvr8Fs8EAQ9ZXgiwxmw&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwiboYOzurXsAhXApXIEHWpkCaQQ6AEwAXoECAgQAg#v=onepage&amp;q=When%20I%20was%20fifteen%2C%20I%20was%20fond%20of%20sword%20play%2C%20and%20with%20that%20art%20I%20challenged%20quite%20a%20few%20great%20men&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youxia&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_Jiang&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Water_Margin_characters#108_Stars_of_Destiny&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_of_Poetry&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_examination&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wudang_Mountains&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.penguin.com.au/books/major-methods-of-wudang-sword-9781583942390&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Jinglin&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wudang_Sword&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://fiveimmortals.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates#Military_service" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23310" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7679" RevisionGUID="de0f9931-f832-4fed-9a4a-f827dcb221a3" CreationDate="2020-10-15T04:28:54.970" UserId="4316" Text="Grim Reaper, is commonly seen as the hooded figure representing death. This person is featured in all sorts of modern fiction as well. What are your ideas on Grim Reaper's creation? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23311" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7679" RevisionGUID="de0f9931-f832-4fed-9a4a-f827dcb221a3" CreationDate="2020-10-15T04:28:54.970" UserId="4316" Text="What is the origin of Grim Reaper?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23312" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7679" RevisionGUID="de0f9931-f832-4fed-9a4a-f827dcb221a3" CreationDate="2020-10-15T04:28:54.970" UserId="4316" Text="|creation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23313" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7674" RevisionGUID="7b62a1ad-1c9d-4c8d-939e-e48579685320" CreationDate="2020-10-15T08:20:50.713" UserId="2892" Comment="Modified the question to be more in line with Codosaurs answer, which is on the poet specifically, as is my own." Text="I use the archaic translation of his name, now preferred as [Li Bai  李白][1].  Although a historical figure, Chinese history and mythology are considered to have been comingled prior to modern scholarship.  (Think founding myths of nations.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Why was Li Bai said to carry a [jian][2]?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a tradition of warrior poets in Chinese myth and history? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Bai&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jian" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23314" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7678" RevisionGUID="6ac38595-b233-4b99-b75e-6085b7a8038a" CreationDate="2020-10-15T08:21:33.383" UserId="2892" Comment="added 108 characters in body" Text="The question derives from oral &amp; written history, and an autobiographical quote attributed to the poet himself:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When I was fifteen, I was fond of sword play, and with that art I challenged quite a few great men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[*[Four Seasons of T'ang Poetry][1]*, John C.H. Wu]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Chinese mythical tradition, this would certainly render him a member of the &quot;Chivalrous Society&quot; of Chinese knight errants ([Youxia][2]), similar to [Song Jiang][3].  (Song is arguably the least proficient warrior of the [108][4], but the leader per his superior virtue in the context of the times.  Such virtue in Chinese mythology is typically linked to scholarship and knowledge of the Classics, which includes the [Book of Songs][5]. Literary style in composition was a factor in [Imperial examinations][6].)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On why it is consistent that he would have carried a sword:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Li Bai was a wanderer, and roads at the time were dangerous, such that a traveller, particularly one who might, via circumstance, be traveling alone, would require protection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Li became a Taoist after being banished from the court of Chang An, and the Taoist and martial traditions of China are closely linked back to antiquity, certainly in the classics of literature.  [See also: [Wudang Mountains][7], modern works &amp; historical figures such as *[The Major Methods of Wudang Sword][8]* and &quot;[Miracle Sword Li][9]&quot;, and the [extant martial practice][10], which also includes an [active Wudang Temple][11] teaching the Taoist arts.]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Li Bai wrote poems mocking his detractors, such that he might have gotten into situations requiring being able to defend himself.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Li Bai is well known for his love of wine, and drinking tends to loosen one's lips, such that one might be called upon to defend oneself physically.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Speaking from personal experience there;)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Li Bai wrote poems of political and social protest, which legend holds he might even have scrawled on the walls of tea houses in fits of fervor, requiring subsequent quick exits from town in the dead of night.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Li Bai was said to have served as staff advisor to Prince Yong in the civil war in the mid 8th century, which would have included battlefield situations.  (Note that Socrates participated in combat in the [Peloponnesian War][12], a not uncommon circumstance for people in ancient times.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The expression &quot;Three wonders&quot; of the Tang era denotes &quot;Li Bai's poetry, Pei Min's swordplay, and Zhang Xu's calligraphy&quot;.  As Li was acknowledged as skilled in calligraphy, it's not a stretch to presume he was also a skilled swordsman, all three endeavors being high art forms in Chinese culture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since history is unreliable, perhaps a better question would be &quot;why might Li Bai have carried a sword?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=FUnRAgAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT55&amp;lpg=PT55&amp;dq=When%20I%20was%20fifteen,%20I%20was%20fond%20of%20sword%20play,%20and%20with%20that%20art%20I%20challenged%20quite%20a%20few%20great%20men&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=6Tfts_AGLa&amp;sig=ACfU3U2JxA6bzCJhvr8Fs8EAQ9ZXgiwxmw&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwiboYOzurXsAhXApXIEHWpkCaQQ6AEwAXoECAgQAg#v=onepage&amp;q=When%20I%20was%20fifteen%2C%20I%20was%20fond%20of%20sword%20play%2C%20and%20with%20that%20art%20I%20challenged%20quite%20a%20few%20great%20men&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youxia&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_Jiang&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Water_Margin_characters#108_Stars_of_Destiny&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_of_Poetry&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_examination&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wudang_Mountains&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.penguin.com.au/books/major-methods-of-wudang-sword-9781583942390&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Jinglin&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wudang_Sword&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://fiveimmortals.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates#Military_service" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23315" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2032" RevisionGUID="2078db95-f850-40a9-963e-9f0783dbf54d" CreationDate="2020-10-15T08:28:24.927" UserId="6920" Comment="grammar and spelling" Text="I read in wikipedia and some mythology sites about the fox spirit that came from India but surprisingly they never mentioned any story in an Indian version. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I can only find stories from China - Daji, Japan - Kitsune, Korea - Kumiho&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what is an Indian version?&#xD;&#xA;Any one know the original story from India?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23316" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2032" RevisionGUID="2078db95-f850-40a9-963e-9f0783dbf54d" CreationDate="2020-10-15T08:28:24.927" UserId="6920" Comment="grammar and spelling" Text="What is the original story of Fox Spirit/Nine tails fox in India's myths?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23317" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2032" RevisionGUID="2078db95-f850-40a9-963e-9f0783dbf54d" CreationDate="2020-10-15T08:28:24.927" Comment="Proposed by 6920 approved by -1 edit id of 1843" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23318" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2032" RevisionGUID="671ff1b7-fbe6-4a54-a6e3-c79be92a5a91" CreationDate="2020-10-15T08:28:24.927" UserId="53" Comment="grammar and spelling" Text="I read in wikipedia and some mythology sites about the fox spirit that came from India but surprisingly they never mentioned any story in an Indian version. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I can only find stories from China - Daji, Japan - Kitsune, Korea - Kumiho&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So is there an Indian version?&#xD;&#xA;Any one know the original story from India?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23319" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7680" RevisionGUID="97b2f899-4299-4ad3-b3ce-8c8ebcb9129d" CreationDate="2020-10-15T12:51:40.260" UserId="7095" Text="Okay, I found a little info on the subject:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First off, it seems that we have no names for these deities, save for one exception. The two possibilities for why this may be, from what I've gathered, are: a. They didn't have personal names; rather, they were simply called by what they were, but in the languages of the Floridians - Sun, Deer, etc. b. They had personal names but these were lost through time. There are only about ten recorded words from the Calusa language, for example. Any missionaries, explorers or conquerors who recorded some aspects of their religions didn't give any names for these deities - either they didn't know the names, or perhaps this was a religious ploy to rid the world of these deities which they perceived to be false idols. The one exception may be the name of the sun, but I don't know if it's the personal name of the sun or simply the word they used for the word 'sun'. According to &quot;Why Have You Come here?: The Jesuits and the First Evangelization of Native America&quot;, the sun may have been called &quot;Ate&quot; because of this exchange between the missionary Father Juan Rogel and one of the Caciques (chiefs):&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Rogel: Do you believe in the unity of God, the creator of the universe? &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Cacique: Yes.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;When Rogel used the word &quot;God&quot;, the interpreter probably translated it with the Indian word &quot;Ate&quot;. To the Indian the Ate was the sun, a superpower, one who was responsible for the light, the brightness...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In &quot;Soldiers of God: The Jesuits in Colonial America, 1565-1767&quot;, pg. 33, it says of the Floridian tribes in general:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Three deities ruled over nature, political matters, and warfare. The sun was the most honored deity and fire was its symbol.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There was a merchant from colonial Jamaica named [Jonathan Dickinson][1] who was captured and kept in captivity for a certain of time by Floridian tribes. I wasn't able to understand which of the tribes held him captive. On Wikipedia it says the Jobe (Jeaga), on [this essay][2] it seems to say the Tequesta and [here][3] it says he was with the Jeaga and Ais.&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Tequesta:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to this [article][4], they would worship &quot;spirits and constellations&quot; and it's possible that the sacrificing of sharks was involved. In this [essay][2] its says that Dickenson said that their religion involved worshipping the sun and moon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the same essay, pg. 18-19, it says that Carlos, one of the chiefs of the Tequesta, even after allowing the erection of a cross in his village, refused to remove certain idols and even ordered that a Spaniard be sacrificed every year to the devil.&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Here][5] it says:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;According to some accounts, when a Tequesta chief died the leader's body and small bones would be buried while the larger bones would be separated and placed in a box for the Tequesta people to worship as gods.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And according to [&quot;Race, Nation, and Religion in the Americas&quot;, pg. 39][6], the Caciques (chiefs) were considered to be the descendants of a group of deities, chief among them the sun.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Calusa:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this [essay][2], pg. 18, it says that they, too, worshipped the sun and moon:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;The Caloosas of slightly north of this area held their principal festival at the first corn-planting. A deer was sacrificed to the sun and its body elevated on a pole for religious veneration.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [&quot;Exploration of Ancient Key-dweller Remains on the Gulf Coast of Florida&quot;, pg. 64-65][7], it says:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...according to the accounts given by more than one writer on Florida, the deer must have been regarded among some of the Floridian tribes as one of the gods of the day or of the dawn...In such event they symbolized...the four sets of the sun's rays that are supposed to correspond to the four quarters of the world, as well as to the four sets of three months in the corresponding four season of the year over which the sun god is believed to have dominion - since he creates all the days thereof.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Here][8], pg. 30, it says that at some point they had two idols:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...the principal one, &quot;a board sheathed in deerskin with its poorly formed image of a fish that looks like the barracuda and the other a figure like tongues.&quot; The other idol is described as the god of the cemetery, &quot;a head of a bird, sculpted in pine,&quot;...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [&quot;The Evolution of the Calusa&quot;, pg. 6][9], it says:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;According to Father Juan Rogel..the Calusa pantheon included three deities who governed the world. These deities were ranked hierarchically, the first deity being the greatest. This deity governed or pertained to phenomena of nature, such as movements of the stars and weather. The second deity pertained to political matters, such as the rule and government of the region. The third, and least important, deity pertained to warfare. The hierarchical nature of the Calusa pantheon, however, may have been a result of the misconception of Rogel.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Here][10] it expands a little bit on the first deity by saying:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Each god had a specific role that they were responsible for. The most powerful was in charge of the moon, stars, sun, and weather...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ais:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On [Enotes][11] it says:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Like most Southeastern Indian people, their religion contained what some ethnohistorians call the &quot;Southern Cult.&quot; While their actual practices are not all that clear, there are many icons, including skulls, circles, and various spiritual figures, that Florida Indians have in common with Mississippian culture. Their society was highly stratified, and it is known that they venerated ancestors, as many Indian people did.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to this [essay][3] pg. 37, the Ais had a moon ceremony. No name is given for the moon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Jeaga:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to this [essay][3], pg. 36, the Jeaga had a moon ceremony. No name is given for the moon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; Dickinson's full account of his time as being taken hostage at the hands of the Floridians can be read [here][12].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; From the accounts of missionaries such as Rogel, it seems that the Native Americans, or at least the Floridians, had great difficulty grasping the concept of the Christian one god and the Christian concept of any other divine force being &quot;of the devil&quot;. The main reason seems to because they believed that man has three souls (plural, as opposed to the Christian oneness). The missionaries' description of Carlos sacrificing &quot;to the devil&quot; appears to not really mean &quot;the devil&quot; in the Christian sense of the word, at least from the Floridians' point of view, but to another, non-Christian deity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Dickinson&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://digitalcollections.fiu.edu/tequesta/files/1941/41_1_02.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://fau.digital.flvc.org/islandora/object/fau%3A41287/datastream/OBJ/view&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/fl-xpm-2000-04-23-0004200474-story.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.theclio.com/tour/266/4&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://books.google.co.il/books?id=qzgeSUfDFFEC&amp;pg=PA39&amp;lpg=PA39&amp;dq=tequesta%20worship%20native&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=rZyrxFC7Ie&amp;sig=ACfU3U3tf2gTDf1T0O3ekFuvET70_rwS9g&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwjN44fblLbsAhVAVhUIHRIGDZc4ChDoATAFegQIARAC#v=onepage&amp;q=tequesta%20worship%20native&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://books.google.co.il/books?id=gRiwKU4ikkkC&amp;pg=PA65&amp;dq=floridian%20gods&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwifqsPvqLbsAhV_aRUIHXmaA-kQ6AEwA3oECAQQAg#v=onepage&amp;q=floridian%20gods&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://everglades.fiu.edu/Everpres/FI07010301.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://archive.org/details/evolutionofcalus0000widm/page/6/mode/2up?q=deity&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://amh3441orta.wordpress.com/calusa-v-iroquois-religious-beliefs/&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://www.enotes.com/homework-help/what-was-religion-following-american-indian-tribes-291110&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://archive.org/stream/godsprotectingpr00dick#page/24/mode/2up/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23320" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7681" RevisionGUID="7603f209-7e20-41b4-af62-709cdc6b95af" CreationDate="2020-10-15T15:50:55.320" UserId="7320" Text="I an writing a book, and i cannot find any soul stealing creatures that still look human! I was wondering if you could give me any examples? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23321" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7681" RevisionGUID="7603f209-7e20-41b4-af62-709cdc6b95af" CreationDate="2020-10-15T15:50:55.320" UserId="7320" Text="What is a type of creature that streals souls?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23322" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7681" RevisionGUID="7603f209-7e20-41b4-af62-709cdc6b95af" CreationDate="2020-10-15T15:50:55.320" UserId="7320" Text="|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23323" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7680" RevisionGUID="50edac99-47ce-48de-8a14-5343190d4e22" CreationDate="2020-10-15T16:11:05.450" UserId="7095" Comment="added 489 characters in body" Text="Okay, I found a little info on the subject:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First off, it seems that we have no names for these deities, save for one exception. The two possibilities for why this may be, from what I've gathered, are: a. They didn't have personal names; rather, they were simply called by what they were, but in the languages of the Floridians - Sun, Deer, etc. b. They had personal names but these were lost through time. There are only about ten recorded words from the Calusa language, for example. Any missionaries, explorers or conquerors who recorded some aspects of their religions didn't give any names for these deities - either they didn't know the names, or perhaps this was a religious ploy to rid the world of these deities which they perceived to be false idols. The one exception may be the name of the sun, but I don't know if it's the personal name of the sun or simply the word they used for the word 'sun', and it might have even meant neither but something like &quot;powerful being&quot; which was eventually attached to the sun. According to &quot;Why Have You Come here?: The Jesuits and the First Evangelization of Native America&quot;, the sun may have been called &quot;Ate&quot; because of this exchange between the missionary Father Juan Rogel and one of the Caciques (chiefs):&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Rogel: Do you believe in the unity of God, the creator of the universe? &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Cacique: Yes.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;When Rogel used the word &quot;God&quot;, the interpreter probably translated it with the Indian word &quot;Ate&quot;. To the Indian the Ate was the sun, a superpower, one who was responsible for the light, the brightness...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In &quot;Soldiers of God: The Jesuits in Colonial America, 1565-1767&quot;, pg. 33, it says of the Floridian tribes in general:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Three deities ruled over nature, political matters, and warfare. The sun was the most honored deity and fire was its symbol.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There was a merchant from colonial Jamaica named [Jonathan Dickinson][1] who was captured and kept in captivity for a certain of time by Floridian tribes. I wasn't able to understand which of the tribes held him captive. On Wikipedia it says the Jobe (Jeaga), on [this essay][2] it seems to say the Tequesta and [here][3] it says he was with the Jeaga and Ais.&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Tequesta:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to this [article][4], they would worship &quot;spirits and constellations&quot; and it's possible that the sacrificing of sharks was involved. In this [essay][2] its says that Dickenson said that their religion involved worshipping the sun and moon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the same essay, pg. 18-19, it says that Carlos, one of the chiefs of the Tequesta, even after allowing the erection of a cross in his village, refused to remove certain idols and even ordered that a Spaniard be sacrificed every year to the devil.&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Here][5] it says:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;According to some accounts, when a Tequesta chief died the leader's body and small bones would be buried while the larger bones would be separated and placed in a box for the Tequesta people to worship as gods.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And according to [&quot;Race, Nation, and Religion in the Americas&quot;, pg. 39][6], the Caciques (chiefs) were considered to be the descendants of a group of deities, chief among them the sun.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Calusa:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this [essay][2], pg. 18, it says that they, too, worshipped the sun and moon:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;The Caloosas of slightly north of this area held their principal festival at the first corn-planting. A deer was sacrificed to the sun and its body elevated on a pole for religious veneration.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [&quot;Exploration of Ancient Key-dweller Remains on the Gulf Coast of Florida&quot;, pg. 64-65][7], it says:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...according to the accounts given by more than one writer on Florida, the deer must have been regarded among some of the Floridian tribes as one of the gods of the day or of the dawn...In such event they symbolized...the four sets of the sun's rays that are supposed to correspond to the four quarters of the world, as well as to the four sets of three months in the corresponding four season of the year over which the sun god is believed to have dominion - since he creates all the days thereof.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Here][8], pg. 30, it says that at some point they had two idols:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...the principal one, &quot;a board sheathed in deerskin with its poorly formed image of a fish that looks like the barracuda and the other a figure like tongues.&quot; The other idol is described as the god of the cemetery, &quot;a head of a bird, sculpted in pine,&quot;...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [&quot;The Evolution of the Calusa&quot;, pg. 6][9], it says:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;According to Father Juan Rogel..the Calusa pantheon included three deities who governed the world. These deities were ranked hierarchically, the first deity being the greatest. This deity governed or pertained to phenomena of nature, such as movements of the stars and weather. The second deity pertained to political matters, such as the rule and government of the region. The third, and least important, deity pertained to warfare. The hierarchical nature of the Calusa pantheon, however, may have been a result of the misconception of Rogel.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Here][10] it expands a little bit on the first deity by saying:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Each god had a specific role that they were responsible for. The most powerful was in charge of the moon, stars, sun, and weather...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ais:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On [Enotes][11] it says:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Like most Southeastern Indian people, their religion contained what some ethnohistorians call the &quot;Southern Cult.&quot; While their actual practices are not all that clear, there are many icons, including skulls, circles, and various spiritual figures, that Florida Indians have in common with Mississippian culture. Their society was highly stratified, and it is known that they venerated ancestors, as many Indian people did.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to this [essay][3], pg. 37, the Ais had a moon ceremony. No name is given for the moon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Jeaga:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to this [essay][3], pg. 36, the Jeaga had a moon ceremony. No name is given for the moon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; Dickinson's full account of his time as being taken captive by the Floridians can be read [here][12].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; From the accounts of missionaries such as Rogel, it seems that the Native Americans, or at least the Floridians, had great difficulty grasping the concept of the Christian one god and the Christian concept of any other divine force being &quot;of the devil&quot;. The main reason seems to because they believed that man has three souls (plural, as opposed to the Christian oneness). The missionaries' description of Carlos sacrificing &quot;to the devil&quot; appears to not really mean &quot;the devil&quot; in the Christian sense of the word, at least from the Floridians' point of view, but to another, non-Christian deity. I believe this is comparable to other Native American tribes who had trickster gods and other ethnic groups in general who had gods of things that Christianity would term as &quot;evil&quot;, such hell/the underworld. While in Christianity such a being would not be considered a god but a dark force that must be eradicated, in these other religions even the &quot;bad&quot; gods are part of the pantheon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Dickinson&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://digitalcollections.fiu.edu/tequesta/files/1941/41_1_02.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://fau.digital.flvc.org/islandora/object/fau%3A41287/datastream/OBJ/view&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/fl-xpm-2000-04-23-0004200474-story.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.theclio.com/tour/266/4&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://books.google.co.il/books?id=qzgeSUfDFFEC&amp;pg=PA39&amp;lpg=PA39&amp;dq=tequesta%20worship%20native&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=rZyrxFC7Ie&amp;sig=ACfU3U3tf2gTDf1T0O3ekFuvET70_rwS9g&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwjN44fblLbsAhVAVhUIHRIGDZc4ChDoATAFegQIARAC#v=onepage&amp;q=tequesta%20worship%20native&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://books.google.co.il/books?id=gRiwKU4ikkkC&amp;pg=PA65&amp;dq=floridian%20gods&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwifqsPvqLbsAhV_aRUIHXmaA-kQ6AEwA3oECAQQAg#v=onepage&amp;q=floridian%20gods&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://everglades.fiu.edu/Everpres/FI07010301.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://archive.org/details/evolutionofcalus0000widm/page/6/mode/2up?q=deity&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://amh3441orta.wordpress.com/calusa-v-iroquois-religious-beliefs/&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://www.enotes.com/homework-help/what-was-religion-following-american-indian-tribes-291110&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://archive.org/stream/godsprotectingpr00dick#page/24/mode/2up/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23324" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7681" RevisionGUID="02943fa0-826b-409c-bac7-e87528687cd0" CreationDate="2020-10-15T17:52:44.347" UserId="7095" Comment="Corrected spelling mistakes." Text="I an writing a book, and I cannot find any soul stealing creatures that still look human! I was wondering if you could give me any examples? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23325" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="7681" RevisionGUID="02943fa0-826b-409c-bac7-e87528687cd0" CreationDate="2020-10-15T17:52:44.347" UserId="7095" Comment="Corrected spelling mistakes." Text="What is a type of creature that steals souls?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23326" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="7681" RevisionGUID="02943fa0-826b-409c-bac7-e87528687cd0" CreationDate="2020-10-15T17:52:44.347" Comment="Proposed by 7095 approved by 53, 5726 edit id of 1844" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23327" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7682" RevisionGUID="16acaef7-4df6-4ac3-946e-6823ad747e3b" CreationDate="2020-10-15T20:45:20.977" UserId="6739" Text="The Japanese monster Nekōmata (猫また), which means &quot;forked cat&quot;, was supposedly a two-tailed  cat creature that lived in the mountains, but was originally a horribly mistreated house cat. I have read that they eat human flesh, and can perform necromantic feats, such as raising the dead. I have seen pictures of cats wearing Kimono and performing human acts, such as playing musical instruments. Are these creatures bipeds, capable of human acts? Any information that can give a more concrete description of this creature would be greatly appreciated&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23328" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7682" RevisionGUID="16acaef7-4df6-4ac3-946e-6823ad747e3b" CreationDate="2020-10-15T20:45:20.977" UserId="6739" Text="Were the Nekomata bipedal?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23329" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7682" RevisionGUID="16acaef7-4df6-4ac3-946e-6823ad747e3b" CreationDate="2020-10-15T20:45:20.977" UserId="6739" Text="|mythical-creatures|japanese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23330" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7683" RevisionGUID="9cce4612-3bb3-4d1f-b8bf-a50c7922e818" CreationDate="2020-10-15T21:30:29.367" UserId="2892" Text="- This appears to be a folkloric belief that has gained significant traction in the era of modern horror fiction.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The wiki for [Soul Eater][1] mentions an introduction of this idea in the Iliad:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But when even Bellerophon came to be hated of all the gods, then verily he wandered alone over the Aleian plain, devouring his own soul, and shunning the paths of men&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Iliad, 6, 202-204][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The wiki also traces the origin primarily to the Hausa people of Nigeria, and includes multiple academic references, chiefly:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Witchcraft, Sorcery, Rumors and Gossip. (Cambridge University Press, 2004)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Black Stomachs, Beautiful Stones: Soul-Eating among Hausa in Niger.&quot; In: Modernity and Its Malcontents: Ritual and Power in Postcolonial Africa. (University of Chicago Press, 1993)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_eater_(folklore)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D6%3Acard%3D191" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23331" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7683" RevisionGUID="6578f66b-d29f-4a6f-b9c4-89c1641a1505" CreationDate="2020-10-15T21:49:31.217" UserId="2892" Comment="added 262 characters in body" Text="- This appears to be a folkloric belief that has gained significant traction in the era of modern horror fiction.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The wiki for [Soul Eater][1] mentions an introduction of this idea in the Iliad:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But when even Bellerophon came to be hated of all the gods, then verily he wandered alone over the Aleian plain, devouring his own soul, and shunning the paths of men&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Iliad, 6, 202-204][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The wiki also traces the origin primarily to the Hausa people of Nigeria, and includes multiple academic references, chiefly:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Witchcraft, Sorcery, Rumors and Gossip. (Cambridge University Press, 2004)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Black Stomachs, Beautiful Stones: Soul-Eating among Hausa in Niger.&quot; In: Modernity and Its Malcontents: Ritual and Power in Postcolonial Africa. (University of Chicago Press, 1993)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- I'd also posit that this is the function of [incubi][3] and [succubi][4], in that interaction with these creatures would result in the devil stealing one's soul.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_eater_(folklore)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D6%3Acard%3D191&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incubus&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succubus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23332" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7682" RevisionGUID="ed657abc-1154-403a-81b3-cfcace10f0b2" CreationDate="2020-10-15T22:40:46.983" UserId="2892" Comment="added 54 characters in body" Text="The Japanese monster [Nekōmata (猫また)][1], which means &quot;forked cat&quot;, was supposedly a two-tailed  cat creature that lived in the mountains, but was originally a horribly mistreated house cat. I have read that they eat human flesh, and can perform necromantic feats, such as raising the dead. I have seen pictures of cats wearing Kimono and performing human acts, such as playing musical instruments. Are these creatures bipeds, capable of human acts? Any information that can give a more concrete description of this creature would be greatly appreciated&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nekomata" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23333" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7684" RevisionGUID="01e3ee2a-a5a4-48d7-a6ab-3b51e2a7df03" CreationDate="2020-10-15T22:59:53.797" UserId="2892" Text="One obvious reference for the iconography is [Cronus][1], god of the harvest, depicted with a sickle, and later with a [scythe][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Forthwith she made the element of grey flint and shaped a great sickle, and told her plan to her dear sons. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Hesiod, *Theogony*, 162][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cronus alone of his siblings has the courage to take up the sickle, and with it castrate his father Ouranos, a severing of power that results in Ouranos' overthrow, which can be a metaphor for death.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The act of reaping grain itself is an act of killing, of which the ancients were well aware, and leads to propitiation rituals and sacrifices in return for this bounty of the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Harvest depends on the marking of the passage of time, so this also becomes a metaphor for the span of human life.  ([The Three Fates][4] were said to sever the thread of a mortal's life when it reached its end: &quot;when your time has come&quot;.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The depiction of the [Grim Reaper as a skeleton][5] seems to derive from the middle ages in Western Europe, and this depiction still has great popularity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've also personally thought that this version of Grim Reaper is influenced by [Charon][6], who took souls to Hades across the river Styx.  Here, the association is not per Charon's appearance, but his role in escorting the dead, as the Grim Reaper is often believed to do.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus#/media/File:Romanelli_Chronos_and_his_child.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D139&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moirai#The_three_Moirai&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_(personification)#Western_Europe&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charon" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23334" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7685" RevisionGUID="36f49a91-e130-42ea-8713-dde43f2bb91e" CreationDate="2020-10-15T23:22:51.973" UserId="2892" Text="- My sense of the overall theme of the Gilgamesh myth is the grappling with an acceptance of mortality.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Enkidu is overtly mortal, and Gilgamesh 2/3 god, and they literally grapple then become friends.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, Gilgamesh must survive Enkidu so that Gilgamesh can come to terms with the his own eventual death.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Enkidu is a tanist in the sense of [Frazer][1]—a proxy for the king who dies in his place in ritual sacrifice.  This is the same idea of the [pharmakon][2] as scapegoat victim in ritual sacrifice.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Important to note however:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Gilgamesh is granted a reprieve, but not spared from death&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gilgamesh saw a well of cool water and he went down and bathed; but deep in the pool there was lying a serpent, &#xD;&#xA;and the serpent sensed the sweetness of the flower. It rose out of the water and snatched it away, and immediately it &#xD;&#xA;sloughed its skin and returned to the well. Then Gilgamesh sat down and wept, the tears ran down his face, and he took the &#xD;&#xA;hand of Urshanabi; ‘O Urshanabi, was it for this that I toiled with my hands, is it for this I have wrung out my heart's &#xD;&#xA;blood? For myself I have gained nothing; not I, but the beast of the earth has joy of it now. Already the stream has carried [it away].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [*THE EPIC OF GILGAMESH*, N. K. Sanders][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here this is the magic plant that would grant him immortality, stolen by a beast, here a metaphor for the mortal part, and the condition of humans as mortal, despite having a divine spark.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Prior to the theft:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'Come here, and see this marvellous plant. By its &#xD;&#xA;virtue a man may win back all his former strength. I will take it to Uruk of the strong walls; there I will give it to the old &#xD;&#xA;men to eat. Its name shall be &quot;The Old Men Are Young Again&quot;; and at last I shall eat it myself and have back all my lost &#xD;&#xA;youth.’&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The plant restores youth, and thus, presumably, would render one immortal.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(My recollection of the [Gardner translation][4] is that this is made more explicit.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Bough&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmakos&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://archive.org/stream/TheEpicofGilgamesh_201606/eog_djvu.txt&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://books.google.com/books/about/Gilgamesh.html?id=sDAmAQAAMAAJ" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23335" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7684" RevisionGUID="a39e2fa3-00c8-4e54-9137-ed788d84a496" CreationDate="2020-10-15T23:31:27.420" UserId="2892" Comment="added 214 characters in body" Text="One obvious reference for the iconography is [Cronus][1], god of the harvest, depicted with a sickle, and later with a [scythe][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Forthwith she made the element of grey flint and shaped a great sickle, and told her plan to her dear sons. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Hesiod, *Theogony*, 162][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cronus alone of his siblings has the courage to take up the sickle, and with it castrate his father Ouranos, a severing of power that results in Ouranos' overthrow, which can be a metaphor for death.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The act of reaping grain itself is an act of killing, of which the ancients were well aware, and leads to propitiation rituals and sacrifices in return for this bounty of the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Harvest depends on the marking of the passage of time, so this also becomes a metaphor for the span of human life.  ([The Three Fates][4] were said to sever the thread of a mortal's life when it reached its end: &quot;when your time has come&quot;.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The depiction of the [Grim Reaper as a skeleton][5] seems to derive from the middle ages in Western Europe, and this depiction still has great popularity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've also personally thought that this version of Grim Reaper is influenced by [Charon][6], who took souls to Hades across the river Styx.  Here, the association is not per Charon's appearance, but his role in escorting the dead, as the Grim Reaper is often believed to do.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Here Charon as [pyschopomp][7] as opposed to Hermes, b/c Hermes is a member of the Olympian order, who rule from Heaven, while Charon dwells in the underworld.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus#/media/File:Romanelli_Chronos_and_his_child.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D139&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moirai#The_three_Moirai&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_(personification)#Western_Europe&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charon&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopomp" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23336" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7684" RevisionGUID="1a46e20f-af18-445b-bfcf-df3e1d13a7a1" CreationDate="2020-10-15T23:40:32.593" UserId="2892" Comment="added 458 characters in body" Text="One obvious reference for the iconography is [Cronus][1], god of the harvest, depicted with a sickle, and later with a [scythe][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Forthwith she made the element of grey flint and shaped a great sickle, and told her plan to her dear sons. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Hesiod, *Theogony*, 162][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cronus alone of his siblings has the courage to take up the sickle, and with it castrate his father Ouranos, a severing of power that results in Ouranos' overthrow, which can be a metaphor for death.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The act of reaping grain itself is an act of killing, of which the ancients were well aware, and leads to propitiation rituals and sacrifices in return for this bounty of the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Harvest depends on the marking of the passage of time, so this also becomes a metaphor for the span of human life.  ([The Three Fates][4] were said to sever the thread of a mortal's life when it reached its end: &quot;when your time has come&quot;.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The depiction of the [Grim Reaper as a skeleton][5] seems to derive from the middle ages in Western Europe, and still has great popularity, seen commonly in Mexican [Día de Muertos (Day of the Dead)][6] costumes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This depiction is certainly a form of [memento mori][7], a reminder of the inevitability of death, which art heavily utilized skeletons, as bodies were often interred in crypts &amp; catacombs, which leave eventually only visible skeletal remains.  (The [Catacombs of Paris][8] is a famous example of human skulls incorporated into the architecture.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've also personally thought that this version of Grim Reaper is influenced by [Charon][9], who took souls to Hades across the river Styx.  This potential association is not per Charon's appearance, but his role in escorting the dead, as the Grim Reaper is often believed to do.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Here Charon as [pyschopomp][10] as opposed to Hermes, b/c Hermes is a member of the Olympian order, who rule from Heaven, while Charon dwells in the underworld.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus#/media/File:Romanelli_Chronos_and_his_child.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D139&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moirai#The_three_Moirai&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_(personification)#Western_Europe&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_of_the_Dead&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memento_mori&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catacombs_of_Paris&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charon&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopomp" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23337" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7686" RevisionGUID="ed90a81b-6ec9-4f0d-aebf-4c1536895ae5" CreationDate="2020-10-16T00:08:20.937" UserId="2892" Text="My overall sense is a general association with life, generation, and regeneration as a [phallic symbol][1]—it's not by chance that unicorns are associated with virgins! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When you look at the at the Domenichino &quot;maiden &amp; unicorn&quot;, you may note that it is not entirely un-erotic:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many unreliable sources to be found online, but, as I recall, Umberto Eco explicated this idea in his medieval period novel, *[Baudolino][3]*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phallus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/KzEZz.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baudolino#Plot_summary" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23338" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="7679" RevisionGUID="23076035-118b-46c1-aa50-76a30481f2e8" CreationDate="2020-10-16T00:15:12.347" UserId="2892" Comment="re-tagged correctly.  (Makes me wonder if we could use a medieval tag. Was also considering the &quot;comparative&quot; tag...)" Text="|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23339" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7684" RevisionGUID="bd433872-846a-4adf-a27c-d81ab9d10f13" CreationDate="2020-10-16T01:10:05.670" UserId="2892" Comment="added 266 characters in body" Text="One obvious reference for the iconography is [Cronus][1], god of the harvest, depicted with a sickle, and later with a [scythe][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Forthwith she made the element of grey flint and shaped a great sickle, and told her plan to her dear sons. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;SOURCE: [Hesiod, *Theogony*, 162][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cronus alone of his siblings has the courage to take up the sickle, and with it castrate his father Ouranos, a severing of power that results in Ouranos' overthrow, which can be a metaphor for death.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The act of reaping grain itself is an act of killing, of which the ancients were well aware, and leads to propitiation rituals and sacrifices in return for this bounty of the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Harvest depends on the marking of the passage of time, so this also becomes a metaphor for the span of human life.  ([The Three Fates][4] were said to sever the thread of a mortal's life when it reached its end: &quot;when your time has come&quot;.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The depiction of the [Grim Reaper as a skeleton][5] seems to derive from the middle ages in Western Europe, and still has great popularity, seen commonly in Mexican [Día de Muertos (Day of the Dead)][6] costumes.  Such costumes were also a regular feature of [anti-nuclear weapons protests][7] in Germany during the Cold War (although the linked images are from more recent anti-nuclear energy protests.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**This depiction is certainly a form of [memento mori][8]**, a reminder of the inevitability of death, which art heavily utilized skeletons, as bodies were often interred in crypts &amp; catacombs, which leave eventually only visible skeletal remains.  (The [Catacombs of Paris][9] is a famous example of human skulls incorporated into the architecture.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've also personally thought that this version of Grim Reaper is influenced by [Charon][10], who took souls to Hades across the river Styx.  This potential association is not per Charon's appearance, but his role in escorting the dead, as the Grim Reaper is often believed to do.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Here Charon as [pyschopomp][11] as opposed to Hermes, b/c Hermes is a member of the Olympian order, who rule from Heaven, while Charon dwells in the underworld.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus#/media/File:Romanelli_Chronos_and_his_child.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D139&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moirai#The_three_Moirai&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_(personification)#Western_Europe&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_of_the_Dead&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo/costume-anti-nuclear.html&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memento_mori&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catacombs_of_Paris&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charon&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopomp" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23340" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6304" RevisionGUID="4b9e7c11-d4e2-415d-92a6-1c9eacab90cc" CreationDate="2020-10-16T06:29:08.743" UserId="5726" Comment="clarification as noted by DukeZhou" Text="I can notice 3 kinds of symbols (anarchy, Venus or gold, and silver or the crescent moon of Islam) in an overal feel of a [Ægishjálmur][1] (Helm of Awe) or [Vegvísir][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Anarchy ##&#xD;&#xA;The A enclosed in a circle is the symbol for Anarchy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Do note that you stated in your question that you thought all symbols where Norse, I think that the creator took some artistic liberties to make the art more aesthetically appealing. h\t @DukeZhou* &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Anarchy is the state of a society being freely constituted without&#xD;&#xA;&gt; authorities or a governing body. It may also refer to a society or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; group of people that totally rejects a set hierarchy.&lt;sub&gt;[Wikipedia on Anarchy][3](It is a little more complicated than the quote text says but you get the idea).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;img src=&quot;https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7a/Anarchy-symbol.svg/1024px-Anarchy-symbol.svg.png&quot; width=&quot;100&quot; height=&quot;100&quot;/&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Courtesy of Wikipedia][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Venus/copper ##&#xD;&#xA;The circle with stripes is the alchemical symbol for copper and Venus.&#xD;&#xA;Copper was associated with the planet Venus by alchemists. In our modern world this symbol is a symbol to denote the female sex.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;img src=&quot;https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/Venus_symbol.svg/1024px-Venus_symbol.svg.png&quot; width=&quot;100&quot; height=&quot;100&quot;/&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Courtesy of Wikipedia][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Crescent moon ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The crescent moon is a notable symbol of Islam (although there are disagreements by a growing group of modern Islamic scholars) but is actually more notable as the symbol of the [Ottoman Empire][6] following the [conquest/fall of Constantinople in 1453][7]. .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;img src=&quot;https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/IslamSymbol1.svg/1024px-IslamSymbol1.svg.png&quot; width=&quot;100&quot; height=&quot;100&quot;/&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Courtesy of Wikipedia][8]&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The other crescent moon is the alchemical symbol for silver and The Moon&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;img src=&quot;https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/Crescent.svg/1024px-Crescent.svg.png&quot; width=&quot;100&quot; height=&quot;100&quot;/&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Courtesy of Wikipedia][9]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helm_of_Awe&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegv%C3%ADsir&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy#/media/File:Anarchy-symbol.svg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female#/media/File:Venus_symbol.svg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Ottoman_Empire&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Constantinople&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_calendar#/media/File:IslamSymbol1.svg&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemical_symbol#/media/File:Crescent.svg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23342" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7676" RevisionGUID="d647f37c-9543-47c2-b779-4d02b9e12b9e" CreationDate="2020-10-16T16:30:28.053" UserId="6920" Comment="added 109 characters in body" Text="For questions about  about mythology and legends from the Middle East, from ancient times to the present day." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23343" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="7676" RevisionGUID="d647f37c-9543-47c2-b779-4d02b9e12b9e" CreationDate="2020-10-16T16:30:28.053" Comment="Proposed by 6920 approved by 5726, 1241 edit id of 1842" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23345" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7687" RevisionGUID="8f518423-ff25-4636-8918-3ef1a0b53d07" CreationDate="2020-10-17T00:42:11.743" UserId="7070" Text="From what I've read, it seems that they often do walk around on their hind legs. On Wikipedia, it says, &quot; The less experienced cat has difficulty standing on its hind legs while the older cat is able to do so.&quot; The website [yokai.com][1] seems to agree, saying that they are &quot;most likely seen walking around on their hind legs and speaking human languages.&quot; So, to answer your question, it seems that nekomata often did engage in human acts, such as walking on two legs. Also, in this image[![enter image description here][2]][2]of a nekomata, it is shown wearing human clothes and playing a shamisen. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://yokai.com/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/nbc27.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23346" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7688" RevisionGUID="9b2f2219-98e9-4185-aee9-d42f5f644d4b" CreationDate="2020-10-17T09:46:04.077" UserId="7329" Text="**Ganymede** was a Trojan prince. Zeus turned into an eagle and kidnapped the prince, eventually bringing him to the Mount Olympus and giving him the title of the cup-bearer. Ganymede then provided the Gods with ambrosia - drink which made the Gods immortal - in his Crater (cup). In mosaic art Ganymede is shown as a handsome young boy surrounded by Aquila (Zeus as an eagle), holding his Crater.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://www.theoi.com/Ouranios/Ganymedes.html via Homer ( Homer's LLiad) and Hesoid (Catalogues of Women Frag) " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23347" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="7669" RevisionGUID="fc07381b-821b-4920-b401-212a8095d3ee" CreationDate="2020-10-17T17:50:40.860" UserId="7095" Comment="edited tags" Text="|symbolism|bible|sun|canaanite|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23348" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7689" RevisionGUID="15653b2b-51d0-4b2a-b792-cbbb3930ca3f" CreationDate="2020-10-17T17:52:34.337" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23349" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7689" RevisionGUID="15653b2b-51d0-4b2a-b792-cbbb3930ca3f" CreationDate="2020-10-17T17:52:34.337" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23350" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7690" RevisionGUID="d692e00c-623a-4013-a95a-9af2bef3b55b" CreationDate="2020-10-17T17:52:34.337" UserId="-1" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23351" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7690" RevisionGUID="d692e00c-623a-4013-a95a-9af2bef3b55b" CreationDate="2020-10-17T17:52:34.337" UserId="-1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23352" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7691" RevisionGUID="a6c812ce-ab73-4eb9-a71c-8c2151b0c684" CreationDate="2020-10-17T18:45:39.187" UserId="7095" Text="Background: I'm reading a book in Hebrew called &quot;The Ten Tribes&quot; by Alter Walner, a collection of essays on a number of topics that relate both to the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel and to other aspects of the Jewish Exile. One of these topics is the [Temple of Onias][1]. In the essay he discusses, among other things, that different traditions relating to the creation of this temple. One tradition in the Talmud (appears in a few places, such as tractate [Menachot 109b][2]) says that Onias was chosen as High Priest in the Temple in Jerusalem but his jealous brother Shim'i tricked him into wearing women's clothing on his first day on the job, which got Onias chased out of Jerusalem. He escaped to Egypt and eventually came to build a copy of the temple in Leontopolis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Walner quotes from an essay by Ben-Zion Lurie who suggests that the Talmud combined two traditions: One of a man nicknamed &quot;Onias&quot; who was really a Hellenistic priest who was set on making extreme religious reforms in Jerusalem and because of this, wore of his own accord women's clothing while serving in the Temple. He was one of the people who brought upon the eventual desecration of the Temple which led to the Hasmonean Uprising a few decades later. The other was a priest who was really called Onias who was forced to flee Jerusalem, possibly because the priests who had turned to Hellenism had gained enough political power and had him kicked out. This Onias, or his son, came to build the temple in Egypt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question is about the Hellenistic priest who wore women's clothing in the Temple. In a footnote in the essay, Walner mentions that the Heraklean priest of the Island of [Kos][3] would open up the service by wearing women's clothing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This makes it sound like a very niche phenomenon and I'm skeptical that the Hellenistic priests of Jerusalem would have heard of this. I was wondering whether there was evidence that this was a more widespread phenomenon among the Greeks of this era (late 3rd-2nd century BCE)?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Onias#Jewish_temple_at_Leontopolis_(c._170_BCE_-_73_CE)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Menachot.109b.13?lang=en&amp;with=all&amp;lang2=en&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kos" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23353" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7691" RevisionGUID="a6c812ce-ab73-4eb9-a71c-8c2151b0c684" CreationDate="2020-10-17T18:45:39.187" UserId="7095" Text="Cross-dressing Grecian/Hellenistic priests" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23354" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7691" RevisionGUID="a6c812ce-ab73-4eb9-a71c-8c2151b0c684" CreationDate="2020-10-17T18:45:39.187" UserId="7095" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23356" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7691" RevisionGUID="47aac959-75ad-4ab8-9b89-3bc1db6101e7" CreationDate="2020-10-17T19:15:50.177" UserId="7095" Comment="added 58 characters in body" Text="Background: I'm reading a book in Hebrew called &quot;The Ten Tribes&quot; by Alter Walner, a collection of essays on a number of topics that relate both to the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel and to other aspects of the Jewish Exile. One of these topics is the [Temple of Onias][1]. In the essay he discusses, among other things, the different traditions relating to the creation of this temple. One tradition in the Talmud (appears in a few places, such as tractate [Menachot 109b][2]) says that Onias was chosen as High Priest in the Temple in Jerusalem but his jealous brother Shim'i tricked him into wearing women's clothing on his first day on the job, which got Onias chased out of Jerusalem. He escaped to Egypt and eventually came to build a copy of the temple in Leontopolis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Walner quotes from an essay by Ben-Zion Lurie who suggests that the Talmud combined two traditions: One of a man nicknamed &quot;Onias&quot; who was really a Hellenistic priest who was set on making extreme religious reforms in Jerusalem and because of this, wore of his own accord women's clothing while serving in the Temple. He was one of the people who brought upon the eventual desecration of the Temple which led to the Hasmonean Uprising a few decades later. The other was a priest who was really called Onias who was forced to flee Jerusalem, possibly because the priests who had turned to Hellenism had gained enough political power and had him kicked out. This Onias, or his son, came to build the temple in Egypt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question is about the Hellenistic priest who wore women's clothing in the Temple. In a footnote in the essay, Walner mentions that the Heraklean priest of the Island of [Kos][3] would open up the service by wearing women's clothing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This makes it sound like a very niche phenomenon and I'm skeptical that the Hellenistic priests of Jerusalem would have heard of this. I was wondering whether there was evidence that this was a more widespread phenomenon among the Greeks of this era (late 3rd-2nd century BCE) and what would the act have symbolized in religious terms?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Onias#Jewish_temple_at_Leontopolis_(c._170_BCE_-_73_CE)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Menachot.109b.13?lang=en&amp;with=all&amp;lang2=en&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kos" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23357" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="7691" RevisionGUID="55021195-7fff-46f7-b148-f651bbde78f5" CreationDate="2020-10-17T19:50:26.177" UserId="7095" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|symbolism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23358" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="7643" RevisionGUID="7d62cd32-48c5-4eb4-84e7-ec0a7eb8e46e" CreationDate="2020-10-18T13:05:10.483" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23359" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7643" RevisionGUID="ae8959b1-8e23-4b81-8722-39dc11d4a928" CreationDate="2020-10-19T07:51:57.443" UserId="5726" Comment="corrected typo and added tags" Text="Some months ago I answered a [question over on the Literature SE][1]. The question was about a Krazy Kat strip from 1936.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the cartoon, Offisa Pupp takes a nap; he dreams that he meets Krazy and then catches Ignatz Mouse. Offisa Pupp and Ignatz start wrestling each other, with Krazy looking on and commenting on the action. The language in Krazy Kat is idiosyncratic and the question seeks elucidation on some of the strip’s text. Unfortunately there was no link to the actual strip and I’ve been unable to find a copy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I was able to answer almost all of the question after working out that Krazy’s commentary is 'crying' names of classical poses being struck by exhibition bodybuilders. (My answer on LitSE explains in more detail). https://literature.stackexchange.com/q/11353/333 Offisa Pupp's comments seem related to the poses, although we were not able to connect all the dots there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There were references to Hercules, Horatius at the Bridge, Ajax defying the thunderbolts etc. However, there was one which completely stumped us all:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Krazy: Cyklops destroyin' the tutty-nine dumb dimmins&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pupp: Skol&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems as though it should be straightforward, ‘Cyclops destroying the 39 dumb demons’, but I can’t find a myth that it maps to. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I initially assumed it related to Polyphemus; Odysseus fools him with the aid of strong wine, hence Pupp's response 'Skol', a toast. However that still doesn't get us to 39 demons being destroyed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have begun to wonder if ‘tutty-nine’ isn’t ‘39’ but some adjective that I can’t place, along the lines of eg saturine or something.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Someone suggested the Telkhines, but I still couldn’t match it convincingly, or persuade myself that ‘Tutty-nine’ might be cognate with ‘Telkhines’.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can anyone here suggest any instances of Cyclops involvement in mass demon destruction? I would love to fill that gap in the answer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://literature.stackexchange.com/questions/11353/krazy-language-in-krazy-kat-25-july-1936" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23360" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="7643" RevisionGUID="ae8959b1-8e23-4b81-8722-39dc11d4a928" CreationDate="2020-10-19T07:51:57.443" UserId="5726" Comment="corrected typo and added tags" Text="|greek|myth-identification|roman|demons|daemon|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23362" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7692" RevisionGUID="59fc2f64-22d0-4fd0-b60d-cae26507670a" CreationDate="2020-10-20T08:35:38.477" UserId="7329" Text="The 12 Olympians were:&#xD;&#xA;Zeus&#xD;&#xA;Hera&#xD;&#xA;Poseidon&#xD;&#xA;Demeter&#xD;&#xA;Hephaestus&#xD;&#xA;Athena&#xD;&#xA;Aphrodite&#xD;&#xA;Ares&#xD;&#xA;Apollo&#xD;&#xA;Artemis&#xD;&#xA;Hermes&#xD;&#xA;Hestia / (later Dionysus): Hestia gave up her throne to Dionysus for a place next to the fireplace. https://greekmythology.wikia.org/wiki/Thrones_of_the_Gods&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is considered at many places that Hades is also one of the Olympians as he is one of the main off springs of Kronos and Rhea who helped Zeus defeat Kronos and throw the other Titans in Tartarus, however, he does not have a seat at the Mount Olympus as he needs to stay in the underworld in order to rule it." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23363" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7693" RevisionGUID="ec8afb31-23dd-4a66-a211-e2bc1c17a5ef" CreationDate="2020-10-20T08:53:25.210" UserId="7329" Text="I am writing a short poem about Greek deities and I am debating over Gaea or Rhea as evil goddesses. I have tried looking over multiple sources and answered questions about Gaea, the Mother Earth, in being evil in any way.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In some places it is said that Rhea was more evil than Gaea, as she supported Kronus, however, she did turn against him and helped Zeus overthrow Kronus at the end.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I can say that in a way Rhea was the start of evil in the world as she was the one who married Kronus, and let him engulf her children.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Who was more evil** (even in the slightest sense), Gaea or Rhea?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23364" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7693" RevisionGUID="ec8afb31-23dd-4a66-a211-e2bc1c17a5ef" CreationDate="2020-10-20T08:53:25.210" UserId="7329" Text="Was Gaea more evil than her daughter, Rhea?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23365" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7693" RevisionGUID="ec8afb31-23dd-4a66-a211-e2bc1c17a5ef" CreationDate="2020-10-20T08:53:25.210" UserId="7329" Text="|greek|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23366" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5389" RevisionGUID="e38d1851-e8a0-4496-81ca-eddfb3e1dcda" CreationDate="2020-10-20T09:24:24.007" UserId="5726" Comment="corrected wrong wording corrected some capital letters and added illustration " Text="**To answer your question if there is a god specifically for clones, the answer would be no.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since there was no such thing as cloning in ancient times they did not have a deity or creature for it (just like there is no such thing as an ancient god of automobiles or smartphones). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although some creatures and deities have the power to clone themselves a specific god for cloning does not exist. If you where to search for a duplicitous deity of creature the list would be substantially bigger.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The closest answer to be found is the Hindu [Raktabīja][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Hindu mythology, Raktabīja was an [Asura][2] (loosely translated as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; demon) who fought with [Shumbha and Nishumbha][3] against Goddess [Durga][4] and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Goddess [Kali][5] or Goddess [Chamunda][6]. Raktabīja had a boon that whenever a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; drop of his blood fell on the ground, **a duplicate** Raktabīja would be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; born at that spot (rakta=blood, bīja=seed; &quot; **He for whom each drop of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; blood is a seed**&quot;). According to some sources, Raktabija was, in his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; previous birth, [Rambhasura][7], king of demons and the father of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Mahishasura][8].&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The eighth chapter of the [Devi Mahatmya][9], RaktabIja-vadh, focuses on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ambika's battle with Raktabīja as part of her battle against the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Asuras Shumbha and Nishumbha, who had disenfranchised the gods from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; heaven. Raktabīja was wounded, but drops of blood falling on the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ground created innumerable other Raktabījas, and [Ambika][10] and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Matrikas][11] were in difficulty. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;At this point, the Goddess Kali joined&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the battle, who stretched her tongue over the earth and licked up each&#xD;&#xA;&gt; drop of blood pouring from Raktabīja's body while other goddesses&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wounded him. Kali devoured his **duplicates** into her gaping mouth. This&#xD;&#xA;&gt; form who drank the demon's blood is also called Raktheshwari.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Illustrated below is the Goddess Ambika Leading the Eight Mother Goddesses in Battle Against the Demon Raktabija. Notice Kali using her tongue to collect the dead duplicates of Raktabija while more are coming from the left.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![The Goddess Ambika Leading the Eight Mother Goddesses in Battle Against the Demon Raktabija, Folio from a Devimahatmya (Glory of the Goddess), early 18th century..Several Sanskrit words and phrases are inscribed across the work][12]][12]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raktab%C4%ABja&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asura&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumbha_and_Nisumbha&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durga&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamunda&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rambha_(asura)&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahishasura&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devi_Mahatmya&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambika_(goddess)&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrikas&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/yjt0R.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23367" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7694" RevisionGUID="d131aa0d-6a13-408f-a15e-14f58de3b090" CreationDate="2020-10-20T18:05:48.027" UserId="7070" Text="This depends on your perspective. While yes, Rhea was Kronos's wife, it is worth pointing out that Gaea is the mother of the Titans, so one must consider that when thinking about who is eviler. Besides, there are a multitude of myths where Rhea is shown doing good things, for example fixing Dionysus's brain after Hera made him go crazy. Plus, Gaea did create the Giants, who attack Mount Olympus and either force the gods to flee or require them to call upon the aid of mortal heroes. If it were up to me, I would say that Gaea is the more &quot;evil&quot; goddess, as there are more myths where she is acting as an antagonist. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23369" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5389" RevisionGUID="7c7ae5b1-6333-4d1f-8ee2-313d9cdd6a6b" CreationDate="2020-10-20T20:15:55.190" UserId="5726" Comment="apparently it's hard for me to distinguish left and right. " Text="**To answer your question if there is a god specifically for clones, the answer would be no.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since there was no such thing as cloning in ancient times they did not have a deity or creature for it (just like there is no such thing as an ancient god of automobiles or smartphones). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although some creatures and deities have the power to clone themselves a specific god for cloning does not exist. If you where to search for a duplicitous deity of creature the list would be substantially bigger.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The closest answer to be found is the Hindu [Raktabīja][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Hindu mythology, Raktabīja was an [Asura][2] (loosely translated as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; demon) who fought with [Shumbha and Nishumbha][3] against Goddess [Durga][4] and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Goddess [Kali][5] or Goddess [Chamunda][6]. Raktabīja had a boon that whenever a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; drop of his blood fell on the ground, **a duplicate** Raktabīja would be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; born at that spot (rakta=blood, bīja=seed; &quot; **He for whom each drop of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; blood is a seed**&quot;). According to some sources, Raktabija was, in his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; previous birth, [Rambhasura][7], king of demons and the father of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Mahishasura][8].&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The eighth chapter of the [Devi Mahatmya][9], RaktabIja-vadh, focuses on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ambika's battle with Raktabīja as part of her battle against the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Asuras Shumbha and Nishumbha, who had disenfranchised the gods from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; heaven. Raktabīja was wounded, but drops of blood falling on the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ground created innumerable other Raktabījas, and [Ambika][10] and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Matrikas][11] were in difficulty. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;At this point, the Goddess Kali joined&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the battle, who stretched her tongue over the earth and licked up each&#xD;&#xA;&gt; drop of blood pouring from Raktabīja's body while other goddesses&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wounded him. Kali devoured his **duplicates** into her gaping mouth. This&#xD;&#xA;&gt; form who drank the demon's blood is also called Raktheshwari.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Illustrated below is the Goddess Ambika Leading the Eight Mother Goddesses in Battle Against the Demon Raktabija. Notice Kali using her tongue to collect the dead duplicates of Raktabija while more are coming from the right. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![The Goddess Ambika Leading the Eight Mother Goddesses in Battle Against the Demon Raktabija, Folio from a Devimahatmya (Glory of the Goddess), early 18th century..Several Sanskrit words and phrases are inscribed across the work][12]][12]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raktab%C4%ABja&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asura&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumbha_and_Nisumbha&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durga&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamunda&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rambha_(asura)&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahishasura&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devi_Mahatmya&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambika_(goddess)&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrikas&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/yjt0R.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23370" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7696" RevisionGUID="05a224bc-8721-460b-bf1e-9a7871e393bc" CreationDate="2020-10-20T20:16:33.167" UserId="742" Text="The Yiddish term *khoyzek* refers a &quot;mockery&quot; of something else. According to Dov Sadan (cited [here][1]) this word derives from Khoyzek a demon in Jewish folklore. I looked high and low and could not find any evidence of a demon name Khoyzek in any Jewish (or even non-Jewish sources). Does anybody know of any sources which mention such a demon?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://groups.google.com/g/jewish-languages/c/fQgby_9d0-Y/m/0cfgeyNABAAJ" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23371" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7696" RevisionGUID="05a224bc-8721-460b-bf1e-9a7871e393bc" CreationDate="2020-10-20T20:16:33.167" UserId="742" Text="Is there any evidence of a Jewish demon named Khoyzek?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23372" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7696" RevisionGUID="05a224bc-8721-460b-bf1e-9a7871e393bc" CreationDate="2020-10-20T20:16:33.167" UserId="742" Text="|names|demons|jewish|linguistics|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23374" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="7666" RevisionGUID="439f503e-6a50-43a0-a9f7-7649e8254cf2" CreationDate="2020-10-20T20:58:43.753" UserId="108" Comment="108" />
  <row Id="23377" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7607" RevisionGUID="85cdcf02-23c1-4c70-8f05-f974484f5277" CreationDate="2020-10-20T20:59:20.407" UserId="5726" Comment="added 217 characters in body" Text="For questions about the ancient Mesopotamian goddess of love, beauty, sex, war, justice, and political power. Originally worshiped in Sumer and later by the Akkadians, Babylonians, and Assyrians under the name Ishtar." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23378" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="7607" RevisionGUID="85cdcf02-23c1-4c70-8f05-f974484f5277" CreationDate="2020-10-20T20:59:20.407" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 1241, 108 edit id of 1827" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23379" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7611" RevisionGUID="06ab9e9a-e924-414e-8efd-d92ee2dacb70" CreationDate="2020-10-20T20:59:22.933" UserId="5726" Comment="added 229 characters in body" Text="For questions about the creator of humanity from clay, and who steals fire from the gods and gives it to humanity. Punished for this theft by being to a rock, where each day an eagle eats Prometheus' liver until freed by Herakles" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23380" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="7611" RevisionGUID="06ab9e9a-e924-414e-8efd-d92ee2dacb70" CreationDate="2020-10-20T20:59:22.933" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 1241, 108 edit id of 1829" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23381" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7603" RevisionGUID="a4e1ec73-96f1-4422-8b21-ed801247e223" CreationDate="2020-10-20T20:59:25.890" UserId="5726" Comment="added 97 characters in body" Text="For questions about the first part of Dante Alighieri's 14th-century epic poem the Divine Comedy." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23382" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="7603" RevisionGUID="a4e1ec73-96f1-4422-8b21-ed801247e223" CreationDate="2020-10-20T20:59:25.890" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 1241, 108 edit id of 1825" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23383" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7605" RevisionGUID="22255acf-96a9-4774-8c10-5934601eb439" CreationDate="2020-10-20T20:59:28.443" UserId="5726" Comment="added 183 characters in body" Text="For questions about a group of three mythological goddesses, often depicted as weavers of a tapestry on a loom, with the tapestry dictating the destinies of humans and sometimes gods." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23384" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="7605" RevisionGUID="22255acf-96a9-4774-8c10-5934601eb439" CreationDate="2020-10-20T20:59:28.443" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 1241, 108 edit id of 1826" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23385" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7601" RevisionGUID="762dec17-aaa9-4350-a596-6655a194bc3d" CreationDate="2020-10-20T20:59:31.010" UserId="5726" Comment="added 100 characters in body" Text="For questions about the Nymphs and their many subgroups like the Oreads, Nereids, Naiads and Meliae." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23386" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="7601" RevisionGUID="762dec17-aaa9-4350-a596-6655a194bc3d" CreationDate="2020-10-20T20:59:31.010" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 1241, 108 edit id of 1824" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23387" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7609" RevisionGUID="11b15bf5-f78a-4e79-9389-50e3e7eac718" CreationDate="2020-10-20T20:59:33.643" UserId="5726" Comment="added 133 characters in body" Text="body of folklore and mythology found in the sacred texts and traditional narratives that help explain and symbolize the Jewish faith." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23388" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="7609" RevisionGUID="11b15bf5-f78a-4e79-9389-50e3e7eac718" CreationDate="2020-10-20T20:59:33.643" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 1241, 108 edit id of 1828" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23389" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7690" RevisionGUID="2a887978-9124-42d9-ac72-93f02e3d3ef1" CreationDate="2020-10-20T20:59:36.197" UserId="7095" Comment="added 56 characters in body" Text="For questions about Canaanite mythology and legends.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23390" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="7690" RevisionGUID="2a887978-9124-42d9-ac72-93f02e3d3ef1" CreationDate="2020-10-20T20:59:36.197" Comment="Proposed by 7095 approved by 5726, 108 edit id of 1845" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23391" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7613" RevisionGUID="32e87532-b246-4d64-81b4-556620fe0ef6" CreationDate="2020-10-20T20:59:38.813" UserId="5726" Comment="added 110 characters in body" Text="For questions about the folklore and mythology of the Sami, an indigenous Finno-Ugric people inhabiting Sápmi." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23392" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="7613" RevisionGUID="32e87532-b246-4d64-81b4-556620fe0ef6" CreationDate="2020-10-20T20:59:38.813" Comment="Proposed by 5726 approved by 1241, 108 edit id of 1830" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23393" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6425" RevisionGUID="bf7e14d5-1bcd-4ca1-9bdd-bb0004a20d3d" CreationDate="2020-10-21T09:12:58.113" UserId="7021" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="Demeter was the goddess of the harvest and often put on banquets for the gods and sometimes mortals. You also have Pan who was worshipped as the &quot;party god&quot; and/or Dionysus God of the vine. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23395" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7698" RevisionGUID="2f11b858-a626-4921-b649-affc591dc62f" CreationDate="2020-10-22T07:36:12.200" UserId="7347" Text="I am rereading the Iliad and I am wondering how old Nestor, Agamemnon, Odysseus etc. were.   Nestor was and old man, but how old ? 60 ?  What age was the prime of life,  which I suppose Agamemnon and Odysseus were in.  &#xD;&#xA;I think I saw a reference to Achilles age ( late 20's) but am not sure." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23396" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7698" RevisionGUID="2f11b858-a626-4921-b649-affc591dc62f" CreationDate="2020-10-22T07:36:12.200" UserId="7347" Text="How old was Nestor?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23397" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7698" RevisionGUID="2f11b858-a626-4921-b649-affc591dc62f" CreationDate="2020-10-22T07:36:12.200" UserId="7347" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23398" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7699" RevisionGUID="ddd1a5e2-b613-430f-bd24-52cca22e3516" CreationDate="2020-10-22T22:47:29.247" UserId="7350" Text="The ones I can think of may be a little _silly_ (?) but:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Professor X and Magneto in X-Men.&#xD;&#xA; - Naruto and Sasuke (or to an extent their senseis Jiraya and Orochimaru) in the manga of the same name.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More generally, I'm interested in representation of a friendship where not everything is roses and rainbows, where the protagonists may disagree on ideas, might even go to war on opposite sides, but value their loyalty to one another over their disagreement." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23399" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7699" RevisionGUID="ddd1a5e2-b613-430f-bd24-52cca22e3516" CreationDate="2020-10-22T22:47:29.247" UserId="7350" Text="Are there mythological examples of a friendship between people who fundamentally disagree?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23400" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7699" RevisionGUID="ddd1a5e2-b613-430f-bd24-52cca22e3516" CreationDate="2020-10-22T22:47:29.247" UserId="7350" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23401" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7700" RevisionGUID="a312e0f1-5f44-48a8-ab94-0dd02c2605a6" CreationDate="2020-10-23T16:23:44.180" UserId="7354" Text="There's a Hawaiian board game called konane that visually looks similar to Othello, so I looked into it a little more and I found this: https://www.mauimagazine.net/lono-season/. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Hawaiian god Lono is associated with the Pleiades star cluster. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Once a year, as the sun slips into the ocean, a watery blue cluster of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stars rises from the opposite skyline. The first appearance of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pleiades, known in Hawaiian as Makalii, signals the beginning of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Makahiki season in Hawaii, a time of ancient ceremonies celebrating&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the arrival of Lono — god of thunder, rain and harvest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He circles the islands once a year, which sou&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He is also the only god who each year circumnavigates all the islands.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a story about Lono playing konane&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  In Hawaiian Mythology, folklorist Martha Beckwith recounts that, while playing checkers (konane) with his wife, Kaikilani, Lono overhears a stranger address her as his lover. In a fit of jealousy, Lono kills Kaikilani.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That website has a picture of people playing konane during Makahiki. Other websites show that that's a tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So there's a board game, a star formation, and a god that have quite a few connections in the Hawaiian religion. I haven't found a story that says that the game pieces are stars, but there could very well be a traditionally myth or a more recent story about that." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23402" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7700" RevisionGUID="22703d7b-ce1e-449c-a1a3-903688edd388" CreationDate="2020-10-23T20:45:12.570" UserId="7354" Comment="added 180 characters in body" Text="There's a Hawaiian board game called konane that visually looks similar to Othello, so I looked into it a little more. There are some myths relating the Hawaiian god Lono with konone and with the star cluster Pleiades. I didn't find the story you're looking for, but it could be a connection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm quoting this source: https://www.mauimagazine.net/lono-season/. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is an annual holiday called Makahiki that connects the Pleiades with the god Lono.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Once a year, as the sun slips into the ocean, a watery blue cluster of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stars rises from the opposite skyline. The first appearance of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pleiades, known in Hawaiian as Makalii, signals the beginning of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Makahiki season in Hawaii, a time of ancient ceremonies celebrating&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the arrival of Lono — god of thunder, rain and harvest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lono circles the islands once a year, which I suppose could be because he's associated with the stars.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He is also the only god who each year circumnavigates all the islands.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a story about Lono playing konane&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  In Hawaiian Mythology, folklorist Martha Beckwith recounts that, while playing checkers (konane) with his wife, Kaikilani, Lono overhears a stranger address her as his lover. In a fit of jealousy, Lono kills Kaikilani.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Konane is traditionally played during the Mokahiki holiday. That particular website doesn't have a great quote, but there is a photo of people playing, and other websites discuss it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So there's a board game, a star formation, and a god that have quite a few connections in the Hawaiian religion." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23403" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7700" RevisionGUID="6899bec6-78ab-4c4a-84fc-adeac81daf5d" CreationDate="2020-10-23T20:50:48.020" UserId="1241" Comment="Improved formatting." Text="There's a Hawaiian board game called konane that visually looks similar to Othello, so I looked into it a little more. There are some myths relating the Hawaiian god Lono with konone and with the star cluster Pleiades. I didn't find the story you're looking for, but it could be a connection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm quoting this source: [Lono’s Season](https://www.mauimagazine.net/lono-season/). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is an annual holiday called Makahiki that connects the Pleiades with the god Lono.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Once a year, as the sun slips into the ocean, a watery blue cluster of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stars rises from the opposite skyline. The first appearance of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pleiades, known in Hawaiian as Makalii, signals the beginning of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Makahiki season in Hawaii, a time of ancient ceremonies celebrating&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the arrival of Lono — god of thunder, rain and harvest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lono circles the islands once a year, which I suppose could be because he's associated with the stars.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He is also the only god who each year circumnavigates all the islands.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a story about Lono playing konane&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  In Hawaiian Mythology, folklorist Martha Beckwith recounts that, while playing checkers (konane) with his wife, Kaikilani, Lono overhears a stranger address her as his lover. In a fit of jealousy, Lono kills Kaikilani.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Konane is traditionally played during the Mokahiki holiday. That particular website doesn't have a great quote, but there is a photo of people playing, and other websites discuss it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So there's a board game, a star formation, and a god that have quite a few connections in the Hawaiian religion." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23404" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7701" RevisionGUID="257d57d7-a63a-4c25-bda0-b4bba9133ada" CreationDate="2020-10-24T18:16:02.113" UserId="197" Text="Eric Knight's short story “Strong In The Arms” (1942 or earlier, I've mostly read it in Hungarian translation from the volume [1]) talks about the legend of a giant guarding Wada's Keep.  Let me summarize what we learn from the story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's an old castle called Wada's Keep near the village of Polkingthorpe Bridge (in Yorkshire, England).  The locals, including Sam Small, seem to consider it a haunted place, and try not to go there during the night.  On the occasion that this short story tells about, Black Cawper, the strongest man in the village, walks to the castle one late evening.  He forces Sam Small to come with him, so we learn about this story from his viewpoint.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wada's Keep is guarded by a giant, a man who's two meters tall and very strong.  He says that he is bound to guard the castle from “the invader”.  This man appears only at night, probably only for one full moon night every month.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Black Cawper meets the giant.  He is curious about meeting such a giant, and so can't just leave.  They spends the rest of the night competing him in every manner of sporty activity, comparing their speed and dexterity and strength, all without any animosity.  The giant wins every event, just barely besting Cawper in wrestling at the end.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The giant is sad that he didn't lose.  Apparently he will be freed from his doom of guarding the tower if he finds someone stronger than him.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Black Cawper died in a mining accident the very day after, performing one last heroic act of strength to save seven miners.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What are the sources for the legend of the giant guarding Wada's Keep?  Which parts are original inventions of Eric Knight?  What elements did he take from existing folklore?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I believe that Eric Knight got most of the topics for his writing from his own life, so he may have heard some of the legend as oral folklore.  But even so, there can be other writings that document this legend and share a common origin, even if they're not writings that Knight himself has read.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1]: Eric Knight, *Sam Small csodálatos élete*, (1983, cop. 1979) Móra könyvkiadó, második kiadás, trans. Szerb Antal, illustrated by Hegedüs István, ISBN: 963-11-3283-8, based on (Eric Knight, “Sam Small flies again”, Phoenix publishing co. ltd., Scherz and Hallwag, Berne – Paris, copyright 1937, 1938, 1939, 1940, 1941, 1941 by Eric Knight, copyright renewed © 1965 by Jere Knight)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23405" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7701" RevisionGUID="257d57d7-a63a-4c25-bda0-b4bba9133ada" CreationDate="2020-10-24T18:16:02.113" UserId="197" Text="Giant guarding Wada's Keep, other sources for the legend" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23406" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7701" RevisionGUID="257d57d7-a63a-4c25-bda0-b4bba9133ada" CreationDate="2020-10-24T18:16:02.113" UserId="197" Text="|folklore|british|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23407" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7702" RevisionGUID="591dbc1a-105e-4f41-a64a-9853b3890fee" CreationDate="2020-10-25T09:01:44.147" UserId="6712" Text="In the context of greek and roman mythology, suppose I'm interested in finding whether two prominent mythical personages (deities, heroes or other figures) are related or not by some written narrative, reference to narrative  or iconic representation, painted or sculptural. &lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Has some systematic indexing work of this kind been done, making it easy to find whether such relation exists or not, in all the available written and pictorial corpus of classical antiquity?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23408" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7702" RevisionGUID="591dbc1a-105e-4f41-a64a-9853b3890fee" CreationDate="2020-10-25T09:01:44.147" UserId="6712" Text="Indexing the relations between mythical personages of classical antiquity" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23409" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7702" RevisionGUID="591dbc1a-105e-4f41-a64a-9853b3890fee" CreationDate="2020-10-25T09:01:44.147" UserId="6712" Text="|greek|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23410" PostHistoryTypeId="36" PostId="7703" RevisionGUID="cab23dd0-beb2-44bb-8af5-b6bb879e48e6" CreationDate="2020-10-25T12:30:03.643" UserId="-1" Comment="from https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/61614/why-was-the-greek-deity-of-warfare-and-wisdom-athena-female-and-how-did-the-g" />
  <row Id="23411" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7703" RevisionGUID="1138283b-0c0b-479e-aecb-71fd0312a77d" CreationDate="2020-10-25T09:11:14.347" UserDisplayName="TheChymera" Text="While of course descending from a diverse cultural genealogy, Greek deities appear to have become consistent with what would have been familiar gender associations to the Greeks. This can especially be seen among the twelve Olympians, with one notable exception, Athena (and an arguable second, Artemis, mentioned here for comparative purposes). Why is this the case?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I realize that the broader Greek concept of wisdom might have eschewed a gender role or been considered a female gender role, and I can certainly see this being the case with Hekate. It is however the combination of wisdom with Athena's prominent martial role which seems particularly strange. She holds after all, not herbs, but a spear, which I assume the Greeks would have seen as symbolism at odds with her female nature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In trying to answer this question for myself I have consulted mainly tertiary non-authoritative sources, so apologies for that. These include:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; * [This](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3le88n/if_ancient_greece_was_patriarchal_why_was_athena/) reddit AskHistorians thread. I initially found the suggestion that Athena might descend from a more “feminine and wild” (as one redditor puts it, citing sources I cannot access) mythology compelling, but it does seem incongruous with her attributes. This explanation would seem natural for the aforementioned Artemis as a goddess of the hunt, but there is certainly nothing “wild” about wisdom paired with organized warfare.&#xD;&#xA; * [The relevant Wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athena#Origins), which showcases that the warrior goddess was not at all an uncommon phenomenon in ancient religions (another interesting, but different question), but does not address how this divine attribute in particular remained exempt from gender conformity in the otherwise conforming array of major Olympians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second part of the question, is what the Greeks made of this. This rationalization might of course be unrelated to the historical origin and evolution of the deity, but certainly a female figure with a spear and a helmet would have stood out from the other gods. Is there any recount of ancient Greek commentary on this?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23412" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7703" RevisionGUID="1138283b-0c0b-479e-aecb-71fd0312a77d" CreationDate="2020-10-25T09:11:14.347" UserDisplayName="TheChymera" Text="Why was the Greek deity of warfare and wisdom (Athena) female, and how did the Greeks rationalize this?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23413" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7703" RevisionGUID="1138283b-0c0b-479e-aecb-71fd0312a77d" CreationDate="2020-10-25T09:11:14.347" UserDisplayName="TheChymera" Text="|untagged|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23414" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7704" RevisionGUID="00b70e75-0026-446a-af06-a9a8c0acd7b3" CreationDate="2020-10-25T12:38:18.290" UserId="5726" Text="&lt;sub&gt;*wip (not a lot of time but this is off the top of my head)*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Athena was more or less the counterpart of Ares in all things (also in gender). For one Ares was hated to the point where Zeus called Ares a whining double faced liar who is most hateful of all gods who hold Olympus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then looking at him darkly Zeus who gathers the clouds spoke to him:&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Do not sit beside me and whine, you double-faced liar.&#xD;&#xA;To me you are the most hateful of all gods who hold Olympus.&#xD;&#xA;Forever quarrelling is dear to your heart, wars and battles.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt; [Iliad, Book 5, lines 798–891, 895–898][1] &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Athena was the Olympian of choice among the military. Ares stands for the unbridled rage in the midst of battle. While Athena stands for the tactical aspect of warfare and thinking about your strategy instead of mindlessly running into battle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another reason is that Athena as a deity &quot;evolved&quot; over time from a household protector with roots in much earlier deities, they started out as a protector of homes and as homes got bigger of palaces and eventually cities. It has been argued that at that time in the Eastern Mediterranean and Near East there where many warrior goddesses as Jeffrey M. Hurwit notes in his book *The Athenian Acropolis: History, Mythology, and Archaeology from the Neolithic Era to the Present* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Mesopotamians had Ishtar or Astarte, the Canaanites had Anat and the Egyptians had Neith - and there is no reason why such a goddess should not have figured in the pantheon of Bronze Age Greece. &lt;sub&gt;[The Athenian Acropolis: History, Mythology, and Archaeology from the Neolithic Era to the Present p.14][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In some versions she represents both sexes at the same time (emphasis and bold text mine)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Only-begotten, noble race of Zeus, blessed and fierce, who joyest in caves to rove: O warlike Pallas **(Athena's epithet)**, whose illustrious kind, ineffable, and effable we find : magnanimous and famed, the rocky height, and groves, and shady mountains thee delight: in arms rejoicing, who with furies dire and wild the souls of mortals dost inspire. Gymnastic virgin of terrific mind, dire Gorgon's bane, unmarried, blessed, kind: mother of arts, impetuous; understood as fury by the bad, but wisdom by the good. *Female and male, the arts of war are thine*, O much-formed, Drakaina (She-Dragon), inspired divine: over the Phlegraion Gigantes (Phlegraean Giants), roused to ire, thy coursers driving with destructive dire. Tritogeneia, of splendid mien, purger of evils, all-victorious queen. Hear me, O Goddess, when to thee I pray, with supplicating voice both night and day, and in my latest hour give peace and health, propitious times, and necessary wealth, and ever present be thy votaries aid, O much implored, art's parent, blue-eyed maid.&quot; &lt;sub&gt; Orphic Hymn 32 to Athena (trans. Taylor) (Greek hymns C3rd B.C. to 2nd A.D.)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Various traditions about Athena arose, from local legends and  identifications of the Athena with other deities. The most widely spread common notion which the Greeks had about her is, that she was the daughter of Zeus and Metis. Her father was most powerfull and her mother the wisest amongst the gods, so Athena was a combination of the two and therefore a goddess in whom power and wisdom were harmoniously blended (that's why she is sometimes represented as both male and female). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She doesn't seem to represent any particular physical power manifested in nature (unlike some other Olympians). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.theoi.com/Text/HomerIliad5.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.nl/books?id=0pQ4AAAAIAAJ&amp;q=Athena%20patron%20of%20heroes&amp;pg=PA18&amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;q=ishtar&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23415" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="7703" RevisionGUID="113fbb28-b534-4da7-b0d6-e407bd8df09c" CreationDate="2020-10-25T12:39:53.740" UserId="5726" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|interpretation|athena|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23417" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="7597" RevisionGUID="1abc5056-e7c3-4208-840f-0afd414333ed" CreationDate="2020-10-26T08:24:47.563" UserId="108" Comment="101" Text="{&quot;OriginalQuestionIds&quot;:[2259],&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:108,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Semaphore&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="23418" PostHistoryTypeId="38" PostId="2259" RevisionGUID="f2389afc-1175-4a41-8f7e-94e43fb1ecd1" CreationDate="2020-10-26T08:24:52.617" UserId="108" Comment="from https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/7597/which-greek-gods-are-part-of-the-12-olympians" />
  <row Id="23419" PostHistoryTypeId="37" PostId="7597" RevisionGUID="f2389afc-1175-4a41-8f7e-94e43fb1ecd1" CreationDate="2020-10-26T08:24:52.617" UserId="108" Comment="to https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2259/who-are-the-twelve-olympian-gods" />
  <row Id="23420" PostHistoryTypeId="38" PostId="7599" RevisionGUID="f2389afc-1175-4a41-8f7e-94e43fb1ecd1" CreationDate="2020-10-26T08:24:52.617" UserId="108" Comment="from https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/7597/which-greek-gods-are-part-of-the-12-olympians" />
  <row Id="23421" PostHistoryTypeId="38" PostId="7692" RevisionGUID="f2389afc-1175-4a41-8f7e-94e43fb1ecd1" CreationDate="2020-10-26T08:24:52.617" UserId="108" Comment="from https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/7597/which-greek-gods-are-part-of-the-12-olympians" />
  <row Id="23423" PostHistoryTypeId="14" PostId="7597" RevisionGUID="7abd0f81-6f12-40df-9178-53480cb6bfb0" CreationDate="2020-10-26T08:24:52.617" UserId="108" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:108,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Semaphore&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="23424" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7705" RevisionGUID="8007d410-49ce-4b0f-8666-02d6b82bf54e" CreationDate="2020-10-26T08:58:09.313" UserId="7360" Text="Do the following events occur at same time and will begin Ragnarok? Or does some of these happen during Ragnarok? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. When Jormungandr circles the entire midgard with it's body length?&#xD;&#xA;2. When Fenrir breaks the magical rope tied around it?&#xD;&#xA;3. When Skoll and Hati devour Sun and Moon, starting Fimble Winter?&#xD;&#xA;4. When Loki breaks the innards in which he is chained with a serpant on top of him?&#xD;&#xA;5. Surtur comes to Asgard from muspelheim to burn it in Ash?&#xD;&#xA;6. When the Niddhogg (Dragon/Serpent) completely chews/gnaws the world tree and makes it collapse?&#xD;&#xA;7. Death of the eagle Vedrfolnir when Yggdrasil falls on it?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Correct me if any of the above events are wrong or if it is in a different timeline with others!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23425" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7705" RevisionGUID="8007d410-49ce-4b0f-8666-02d6b82bf54e" CreationDate="2020-10-26T08:58:09.313" UserId="7360" Text="Does Ragnarok start or happen when certain events take place?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23426" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7705" RevisionGUID="8007d410-49ce-4b0f-8666-02d6b82bf54e" CreationDate="2020-10-26T08:58:09.313" UserId="7360" Text="|norse|ragnarok|loki|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23427" PostHistoryTypeId="36" PostId="7706" RevisionGUID="4da351bc-07b2-4771-8364-9b2d21dc5674" CreationDate="2020-10-26T12:55:19.380" UserId="-1" Comment="from https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/61632/myth-history-origin-of-dragons-anthropology" />
  <row Id="23428" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7706" RevisionGUID="1db3dc69-69e2-48fc-9dca-1c374f622848" CreationDate="2020-10-26T12:49:31.857" UserDisplayName="Opcode" Text="We can see ancient references to dragon like creatures in European, Asian and also many other civilizations.&#xD;&#xA;Did these civilizations come up with the concept of dragons independently and just coincidentally similar? Or does the entire myth have roots in one place and spread?&#xD;&#xA;Of all the creatures you can come up with, to think all these civilizations came up with the same thing independently is curious.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In even more ancient mythology, serpents were very often a target or myths. Why the cross culture significance of serpents and serpent like creatures like dragons?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23429" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7706" RevisionGUID="1db3dc69-69e2-48fc-9dca-1c374f622848" CreationDate="2020-10-26T12:49:31.857" UserDisplayName="Opcode" Text="Myth History: Origin of Dragons | Anthropology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23430" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7706" RevisionGUID="1db3dc69-69e2-48fc-9dca-1c374f622848" CreationDate="2020-10-26T12:49:31.857" UserDisplayName="Opcode" Text="|untagged|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23431" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7707" RevisionGUID="c1bdd14a-7183-46d2-8016-0018d9f78c28" CreationDate="2020-10-26T13:19:05.980" UserId="7361" Text="Similar imagery in myths and stories crop up in different cultures around the world; it isn't just dragons. The flood and Ark, vampires, resurrecting Gods, cosmic wars with differing factions...all of these can be found in various myths and religions around the world. Most of them, including mention of dragons, can be traced back to Sumerian writings (which, not surprisingly, is the earliest known written language [1]). It begs the &quot;chicken or the egg&quot; question, in my mind; could it be that nearly all cultures have a dragon myth because nearly all cultures experienced dragons in the distant past, or is it because nearly all cultures have some degree of inspiration from Sumerian myths, which were the earliest recorded? Occam's razor tells us it's the second, but that's not necessarily as fun...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You might also want to check out this other thread on dragons [2] and see if you find any useful answers/theories there. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1] https://www.bl.uk/history-of-writing/articles/where-did-writing-begin&#xD;&#xA;[2] https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/254/what-is-the-earliest-known-dragon-myth" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23432" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7708" RevisionGUID="5c79cd03-90ed-4f9a-b0b5-a324ee397f8a" CreationDate="2020-10-26T14:23:39.980" UserId="7361" Text="There seems to be some question as to whether or not Chernobog really existed before the *Chronica Slavorum* was written in the 12th century by Helmold of Bosau, a German priest. Helmold writes about a drinking execration where the people of the time and region would call upon an entity that &quot;in their language they call the bad god Diabol, or Zcerneboch, that is, the black god&quot; [1]. However, there are no sources mentioning Chernobog by name that predate Helmold's account, and later sources are similarly Christian in nature, furthering the dualistic concept of good v. evil and denigrating the idea of a dark or black god as the opposite of a white god [2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only other thing I've been able to find (though admittedly, I'm no scholar on the subject) is a mention of Zcerneboch as one of the gods represented at the temple on the island of Arkona, which was &quot;liberated&quot; of its pagan ways in 1168 by the Christian King of Denmark and chronicled by, you guessed it, none other than Helmold of Bosau [3], which calls into question the legitimacy of the account, especially since numerous other sources say the isle temple at Arkona was dedicated to Svantveit, not Zcerneboch/Chernobog. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[1] https://www.jassa.org/?page_id=10175&#xD;&#xA;[2] https://tinyurl.com/y3xpk72f&#xD;&#xA;[3] https://www.britannica.com/topic/Slavic-religion#ref533471" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23433" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="7706" RevisionGUID="37489477-2c0d-496e-a86d-3fd12b0f6e3b" CreationDate="2020-10-26T15:03:26.267" UserId="5726" Comment="applicable tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|origins|dragons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23434" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7709" RevisionGUID="28d768f7-bbe0-4f3b-8eb5-76449fc62030" CreationDate="2020-10-26T15:24:24.293" UserId="2703" Text="This [link][1] makes it seems like it was referred to as &quot;Koraki&quot; but it seems like fan-fiction and I cannot validate using any of the accessible references.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.miscellanies.org/mythology/mag2/heroes/argo.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23435" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7709" RevisionGUID="28d768f7-bbe0-4f3b-8eb5-76449fc62030" CreationDate="2020-10-26T15:24:24.293" UserId="2703" Text="What was the oak branch of Dodona (within Argo) called?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23436" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7709" RevisionGUID="28d768f7-bbe0-4f3b-8eb5-76449fc62030" CreationDate="2020-10-26T15:24:24.293" UserId="2703" Text="|greek|argonauts|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23437" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7710" RevisionGUID="a7588323-82fa-4f01-8e52-d86a231ac10e" CreationDate="2020-10-27T01:54:43.980" UserId="2892" Text="Interesting to note that in the Western tradition, Dragons are foes that must be slain, from Python to Fafnir &amp; Smaug, while in the Eastern tradition (China principally) dragons are benefactors that bring rain.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's possible that these two conceptions arise independently in that the Indo-European languages, including Germanic languages, use the &quot;drak&quot; root that comes to us through the Greek [δράκων (drakōn)][1], while the Chinese word is [Lóng 龙][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If there was significant enough geographical separation to allow a distinct language families, it's not unreasonable to assume the same applies to this very ancient mythical beast.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Ddra%2Fkwn&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_dragon" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23438" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7711" RevisionGUID="1b230b91-86d9-4a29-9496-2e6e4fb2c67d" CreationDate="2020-10-27T07:41:55.763" UserId="5726" Text="Koraki in Greek is κοράκι meaning crow or raven. &#xA;&#xA;Noticing other articles on that site the authors name is on top just like the &quot;koraki&quot;. It's probably a made up name used to make the story more interesting. I certainly found no other references to Koraki in the ancients texts applicable to this story. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23439" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="7702" RevisionGUID="0b407e37-2ada-4e7a-b212-1d83c0c6c0db" CreationDate="2020-10-27T08:24:24.907" UserId="5726" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|roman|source-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23440" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="7698" RevisionGUID="091e2027-924a-4972-9c81-9504ab45836c" CreationDate="2020-10-27T08:25:21.437" UserId="5726" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|odyssey|iliad|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23441" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="7668" RevisionGUID="a26e6423-8a88-4d49-879f-d6ad91f51ef2" CreationDate="2020-10-27T09:16:27.227" UserId="5726" Comment="edited tags" Text="|egyptian|afterlife|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23442" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="7661" RevisionGUID="98492c4f-8ec2-425a-9a52-b1aeac1bef93" CreationDate="2020-10-27T09:20:31.453" UserId="5726" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|medusa|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23443" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7692" RevisionGUID="3bfbeb00-987e-4fa1-a04a-612c19227ef8" CreationDate="2020-10-27T09:30:49.593" UserId="7329" Comment="formatting corrected" Text="The 12 Olympians were:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hera&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Poseidon&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Demeter&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hephaestus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Athena&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aphrodite&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ares&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollo&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Artemis&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hermes&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hestia / (later Dionysus): Hestia gave up her throne to Dionysus for a place next to the fireplace. https://greekmythology.wikia.org/wiki/Thrones_of_the_Gods&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is considered at many places that Hades is also one of the Olympians as he is one of the main off springs of Kronos and Rhea who helped Zeus defeat Kronos and throw the other Titans in Tartarus, however, he does not have a seat at the Mount Olympus as he needs to stay in the underworld in order to rule it." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23445" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7712" RevisionGUID="42969486-1f30-40ec-900c-ba4fa72ede8b" CreationDate="2020-10-27T18:35:05.087" UserId="5726" Text="[Gilgamesh][1] and [Enkidu][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gilgamesh was the king in/of [Uruk][3] of southern Babylonia and known as an autocratic, tyrant and abuser of his powers as king. While not a very nice way to start the story with a hero but as Andrew George notes; the poet who composed the piece tried to make Gilgamesh human, with all the follies that go with ultimate power and authority.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [gods][4] of [Sumer][5] heard the pleas and lamentations of Gilgamesh' people and decided to do something about it. They send in a &quot;[wildman][6]&quot;1 called Enkidu, as powerful as Gilgamesh but without the flaws Gilgamesh exhibited while &quot;drunk on power&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gilgamesh is a man of the city while Enkidu is a man of the wild. Enkidu goes to the city of Uruk to meet Gilgamesh with his own equal power, and stop Gilgamesh from abusing his people. After learning how to basically, be human (transitioning from a &quot;wildman&quot;), Enkidu meets Gilgamesh to teach him a lesson in humility and fairness.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gilgamesh and Enkidu get into a big fight and struggle for some time until finally coming to a complete standstill since they where equally matched in power. After coming to a standstill they recognize in each other a best friend, something they became and remained until Enkidu's death after many adventures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1:  Noted by Wikipedia &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The apparition of Enkidu as a primitive man seems to be an innovation&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the Old Babylonian version (1300 - 1000 BC), as he was originally a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; servant-warrior in the Sumerian poems.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources : &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Babylonian Gilgamesh epic : introduction, critical edition and cuneiform texts by A.R George][7]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The epic of Gilgamesh: the Babylonian epic poem and other texts in Akkadian and Sumerian A.R George][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Epic of Gilgamesh, Lecture by Andrew George][9]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgamesh&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enkidu&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruk&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_religion#Pantheon&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_man&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.worldcat.org/title/babylonian-gilgamesh-epic-introduction-critical-edition-and-cuneiform-texts/oclc/819941336&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.worldcat.org/title/epic-of-gilgamesh-the-babylonian-epic-poem-and-other-texts-in-akkadian-and-sumerian/oclc/901129328&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rd7MrGy_tEg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23446" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7713" RevisionGUID="ffcbde0e-ff71-494f-80f7-55e350e4639b" CreationDate="2020-10-27T21:02:20.517" UserId="5726" Text="Prompted by the question [How old was Nestor][1] is there any reference to how much Homer considered a generation to be? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I cannot seem to find any good reference that is reliable and sourced correctly, most sites in my search results have varying numbers but no specific sources or pages to consult on whether their interpretation is the correct one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/7698/how-old-was-nestor" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23447" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7713" RevisionGUID="ffcbde0e-ff71-494f-80f7-55e350e4639b" CreationDate="2020-10-27T21:02:20.517" UserId="5726" Text="How much time is a generation in the odyssey and Iliad?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23448" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7713" RevisionGUID="ffcbde0e-ff71-494f-80f7-55e350e4639b" CreationDate="2020-10-27T21:02:20.517" UserId="5726" Text="|odyssey|homer|iliad|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23449" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7710" RevisionGUID="6dd5b8b8-7219-4127-ba50-79fd28fd9bc8" CreationDate="2020-10-28T01:11:56.377" UserId="2892" Comment="added the association of fire &amp; western dragons" Text="Interesting to note that in the Western tradition, Dragons are foes, typically fire-breathing, that must be slain, from Python to Fafnir &amp; Smaug, while in the Eastern tradition (China principally) dragons are benefactors that bring rain.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's possible that these two conceptions arise independently in that the Indo-European languages, including Germanic languages, use the &quot;drak&quot; root that comes to us through the Greek [δράκων (drakōn)][1], while the Chinese word is [Lóng 龙][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If there was significant enough geographical separation to allow a distinct language families, it's not unreasonable to assume the same applies to this very ancient mythical beast.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Ddra%2Fkwn&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_dragon" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23450" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7714" RevisionGUID="b3cf9ddc-c0b4-4cf7-8519-401a5fc24001" CreationDate="2020-10-28T23:10:09.500" UserId="1317" Text="&lt;h2&gt;Argo&lt;/h2&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The idea of _Argo_ containing a branch of the Dodona Oak comes from the Hellenistic epic _[Argonautica](https://www.gutenberg.org/files/830/830-h/830-h.htm)_ by Appolonius of Rhodes.  In Book 1, the Argonauts are getting in the ship preparing to leave Pagasae in Magnesia, when an astonishing thing happened:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And a strange cry did the harbour of Pagasae utter, yea and **Pelian Argo herself***, urging them to set forth. For in her a beam divine had been laid which Athena had brought from an oak of Dodona and fitted in the middle of the stem.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Dodona Oak branch was a magical ingredient that gave the ship itself a voice. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23451" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7714" RevisionGUID="1661e5c2-0cd5-4b02-94af-e03cd0c13e37" CreationDate="2020-10-29T03:31:24.310" UserId="1317" Comment="Notes on where a ship's soul resides" Text="&lt;h2&gt;Argo&lt;/h2&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The idea of _Argo_ containing a branch of the Dodona Oak comes from the Hellenistic epic _[Argonautica](https://www.gutenberg.org/files/830/830-h/830-h.htm)_ by Appolonius of Rhodes.  In Book 1, the Argonauts are getting in the ship preparing to leave Pagasae in Magnesia, when an astonishing thing happened:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And a strange cry did the harbour of Pagasae utter, yea and **Pelian Argo herself***, urging them to set forth. For in her a beam divine had been laid which Athena had brought from an oak of Dodona and fitted in the middle of the stem.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Dodona Oak branch was a magical ingredient that gave the ship itself a voice. Although the fanfiction you link to mentions a &quot;plank&quot;, notice that _Argonautica_ says the Dodona branch was &quot;fitted in the middle of the stem&quot; This refers to a ship's bowsprit, which is where more recent wooden ships would mount the figurehead. In an ancient ship with eyes painted on, the bowsprit would resemble the bridge of the nose when the ship was viewed head on." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23452" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7715" RevisionGUID="049e090e-5557-47d3-a5f1-7a818a76db39" CreationDate="2020-10-29T06:33:12.427" UserId="5511" Text="Sadan's article is discussed in depth [here][1].&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Yiddish is a thousand-year-old Jewish language, with origins, according to a broad scholarly consensus, in the German Rhineland. The major component of Yiddish, in both its Western and Eastern varieties, is Middle High German, with varying admixtures of Slavic, Hebrew, and other languages. There are many words that clearly have a Hebrew origin in Yiddish, like *meylekh* (“king”), *azes* (“brazenness”), *kheyshek* (“desire”), *menukhe* (“rest”), *metsiye* (“bargain”), *sod* (“secret”), *tomer* (“whether”), *miyes* (“ugly”), *yakres* (“expensiveness”), *nakhes* (“satisfaction”), *shoyte* (“fool”), *kol* (“sound”), *mishpokhe* (“family”), *tsure* (“face”), etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The origin of *Khoyzek* in Eastern Yiddish, pronounced *chausek* in Western Yiddish, is unclear. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Much of the confusion stems from an old theory, which states that khoyzen derives from *cheisik*, a word first mentioned in Philoglottus with the German meaning *belustigung*, meaning &quot;amusement&quot;. [Hans Peter Althaus][2] translates *Belustigung* as (in Hebrew letters)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;חשק&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;which also renders *cheisik* according to the [Yiddish dialect dictionary][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A more modern theory links *khoyzek* with modern Eastern Yiddish *kheyshek* (lust).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that both theories revolve around German translations that contain &quot;lust&quot;, from Middle High German *lust*, from Old High German *lust*, from Proto-Germanic *lustuz*. Cognate with English *lust*, West Frisian *lust*, Dutch *lust*. Interestingly, lust etymologically can mean both *pleasure* and *desire*, the latter for example in the Yiddish expression:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Isch wil un hob cheischek. ‘I want it because I want it.’&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, we also have this Yiddhish idiom, which suggests the origin of the word may be Germanic:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Versmakht khoyzek oys dir, dem zol onvaksn a khoyzek oyf der noz&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;which in modern German would render something like:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Wer macht khoyzek aus dir, dem zoll anwachsen eine khoyzek auf der nase&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;which means &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He who makes fun (khoyzek) of you, let a khoyzek grow on his nose&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This makes absolutely no sense, unless you take into account that the older Yiddish form of the word is **chausek* meaning &quot;fortress&quot;. Now the German word for &quot;fortress&quot; is *schlosz*, which can also refer to female genitals. Interestingly, there is also a link with &quot;nose&quot; in German:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; schlosz nennt man auch an den pferden das ende der nase (*schlosz* is also the name for the nose-bridge of horses)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So clearly the idiom is wordplay on the different meanings of *khoyzek*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is with this consideration that we can identify the origin of the &quot;demon&quot; association, which starts with Jeremiah 20:7&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thou hast persuaded me, O Jehovah, and I am persuaded; Thou hast hardened me, and dost prevail, I have been for a laughter all the day, Every one is mocking at me,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The link is &quot;everyone is mocking at me&quot;. The Dead Sea Scrolls version of the text of Jeremiah quotes some of Jubilees where שעירים ([se'irim][5]) may have been the Hebrew word in Jub 1:11, which was then rendered in Ethiopic Jubilees as *demons*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Se'īrīm* are frequently compared with the *[shedim][6]* of Hebrew tradition, along with *satyrs* of Greek mythology and *jinn* of Arab culture&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For an in-depth explanation, see Tigchelaar's [Jeremiah’s Scriptures in the Dead Sea Scrolls][7]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.academia.edu/41214120/Selective_Confusion_or_The_Ghoti_Principle_in_Yiddish_Linguistcs_Eastern_Ashkenazic_Yiddish_khoyzek_non_Eastern_chausek&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/334034823_YIDDISH&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://yiddishdialectdictionary.com/khes-%D7%97%D7%AA/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/GSKaw.png&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Se%27irim&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shedim&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://file:///C:/Users/bob/Downloads/Article%20Ascona%20Tigchelaar.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23453" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7716" RevisionGUID="337cfe84-7279-4f73-b51c-ffc0a895a0e9" CreationDate="2020-10-29T06:40:25.070" UserId="5511" Text="Since Homer wrote primarily from a male perspective, we can roughly equate a generation with the [average age of marriage for males in Ancient Greece][1], which would be around 30 years. From the female perspective, it would be 15 years. For the wife to be fully accepted into the groom’s family, a child had to be conceived from their union as soon as possible after marriage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_ancient_Greece#:~:text=Arranged%20marriage,-Marriage%20was%20usually&amp;text=Many%20women%20were%20married%20by,around%20the%20age%20of%2030." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23454" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="7713" RevisionGUID="3773615d-bd14-41b2-8c36-bfab597d5905" CreationDate="2020-10-29T07:29:35.013" UserId="5726" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|odyssey|homer|iliad|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23455" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7716" RevisionGUID="d98a2c46-7e37-4976-8d4f-e934cf110a10" CreationDate="2020-10-29T07:42:16.017" UserId="5511" Comment="added 166 characters in body" Text="Since Homer wrote primarily from a male perspective, we can roughly equate a generation with the [average age of marriage for males in Ancient Greece][1], which would be around 30 years. From the female perspective, it would be 15 years. For the wife to be fully accepted into the groom’s family, a child had to be conceived from their union as soon as possible after marriage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only exception would be Sparta, where men married around 20 years of age, but would spend most of their time in the barracks until they reached the age of 30.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_ancient_Greece#:~:text=Arranged%20marriage,-Marriage%20was%20usually&amp;text=Many%20women%20were%20married%20by,around%20the%20age%20of%2030." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23456" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7717" RevisionGUID="2c824f62-1d43-4594-ac33-736caedeb0ee" CreationDate="2020-10-29T08:50:06.563" UserId="7329" Text="To justify Hades not being an Olympian people have said that it was because he was the God of the Underworld, therefore, in order to rule it he needed to live over there instead of Mount Olympus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What about Poseidon?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He was also the God of sea, so why did he not live underwater rather than on Mount Olympus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23457" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7717" RevisionGUID="2c824f62-1d43-4594-ac33-736caedeb0ee" CreationDate="2020-10-29T08:50:06.563" UserId="7329" Text="Why was Poseidon an Olympian but not Hades?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23458" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7717" RevisionGUID="2c824f62-1d43-4594-ac33-736caedeb0ee" CreationDate="2020-10-29T08:50:06.563" UserId="7329" Text="|olympians|hades|poseidon|olympus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23459" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7718" RevisionGUID="129da779-104b-411a-8a44-575485b6f7ec" CreationDate="2020-10-29T09:39:05.833" UserId="7329" Text="**Noppera-bō** is the closest candidate to your description of a 'soul stealing' mythological creature. However, note that it can be described as 'face stealing' not 'soul stealing'.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Noppera-bō][1] is a Japanese 'face less' *Yokai* (spirit), which looks like a human with just a plain sheet of featureless skin on their faces (no mouth or nose etc). It is believed in Japanese mythology that even though the Noppera-bō can disguise themselves as humans to 'scare' them, they are actually harmless, often disguising themselves as their target's face.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the other hand, we can link a Noppera-bō as a depiction of the **Face-Stealing [Koh][2]** in the Avatar series. However, over there Koh is a shown as an evil spirit who steals faces of anything (human or animal) which expresses any sort of emotion in front of him. Thus to survive, one has to stay expressionless in front of Koh. If not done so he steals the face of his target and the victim will not die but remain faceless, eventually entering a state between 'life and death'. Moreover, Koh is shown as a large insect in these series with several pointed legs like a beetle, rather than a human.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other shapeshifters linked to a Noppera-bō can be a Kitsune (Japanese fox) or a [Mujina][3] (raccoon dog), known to deceive humans. (If that is any use to you).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noppera-b%C5%8D&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://avatar.fandom.com/wiki/Koh#:~:text=Koh%20to%20Aang.&amp;text=Koh%20the%20Face%20Stealer%20is,tree%20in%20the%20Spirit%20World.&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujina" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23461" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7718" RevisionGUID="259eb06c-7c49-4764-914a-417b8c7b0046" CreationDate="2020-10-29T09:50:46.673" UserId="7329" Comment="added 816 characters in body" Text="**Noppera-bō** is the closest candidate to your description of a 'soul stealing' mythological creature. However, note that it can be described as 'face stealing' not 'soul stealing'.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Noppera-bō][1] is a Japanese 'face less' *Yokai* (spirit), which looks like a human with just a plain sheet of featureless skin on their faces (no mouth or nose etc). It is believed in Japanese mythology that even though the Noppera-bō can disguise themselves as humans to 'scare' them, they are actually harmless, often disguising themselves as their target's face.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the other hand, we can link a Noppera-bō as a depiction of the **Face-Stealing [Koh][2]** in the Avatar series. However, over there Koh is a shown as an evil spirit who steals faces of anything (human or animal) which expresses any sort of emotion in front of him. Thus to survive, one has to stay expressionless in front of Koh. If not done so he steals the face of his target and the victim will not die but remain faceless, eventually entering a state between 'life and death'. Moreover, Koh is shown as a large insect in these series with several pointed legs like a beetle, rather than a human.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other shapeshifters linked to a Noppera-bō can be a Kitsune (Japanese fox) or a [Mujina][3] (raccoon dog), known to deceive humans. (If that is any use to you).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second most closest candidate to your description could be [**the Sluaghs**][4] according to Celtic Folklore. In Irish 'sluagh' means '[host][5]'. They were the spirits of the restless dead - so evil they were even banned from hell, therefore, they just roamed around in groups, coming from the West, to try to enter a house where a person had just dies to steal their souls. They either appeared as flocks of birds or beasts, hunting for the weak or sickly people who were to die soon, waiting to devour their souls.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lewis Spence writes in 'The Magic Arts in Celtic Britain';&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;In the Western Isles of Scotland the Sluagh, or fairy host, was regarded as composed of the souls of the dead flying through the air, and the feast of the dead at Hallowe'en was likewise the festival of the fairies.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noppera-b%C5%8D&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://avatar.fandom.com/wiki/Koh#:~:text=Koh%20to%20Aang.&amp;text=Koh%20the%20Face%20Stealer%20is,tree%20in%20the%20Spirit%20World.&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujina&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sluagh&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.ranker.com/list/celtic-sluagh-myth/hugh-landman" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23462" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7688" RevisionGUID="a6cf95c4-3ed1-462e-9f83-9a8ff7598801" CreationDate="2020-10-29T10:19:49.357" UserId="7329" Comment="spelling, tags" Text="**Ganymede** was a Trojan prince. Zeus turned into an eagle and kidnapped the prince, eventually bringing him to the Mount Olympus and giving him the title of the cup-bearer. Ganymede then provided the Gods with ambrosia - drink which made the Gods immortal - in his Crater (cup). In mosaic art Ganymede is shown as a handsome young boy surrounded by Aquila (Zeus as an eagle), holding his Crater.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://www.theoi.com/Ouranios/Ganymedes.html via Homer ( Homer's Iliad) and Hesoid (Catalogues of Women Frag) " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23463" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="7705" RevisionGUID="6711ae93-7284-4200-815e-258eb0bfb7f1" CreationDate="2020-10-29T10:43:54.727" UserId="108" Comment="104" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:5726,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Tom Sol&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:108,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Semaphore&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="23464" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7719" RevisionGUID="89085c35-ee18-4505-8726-a38b10fd1c31" CreationDate="2020-10-29T11:23:46.673" UserId="108" Text="Poseidon does actually live underwater. From the *Iliad*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Forthwith then he went down from the rugged mount, striding forth with swift footsteps, and the high mountains trembled and the woodland beneath the immortal feet of Poseidon as he went. Thrice he strode in his course, and with the fourth stride he reached his goal, even Aegae, where was **his famous palace builded in the depths of the mere**, golden and gleaming, imperishable for ever.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Hom. Il. 13.21-22&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps the real question is why Poseidon is one of the [Twelve Opympians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Olympians), whereas Hades is not.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is in truth rather more due to Poseidon being a major deity and a much more significant target of worship, than Hades. Poseidon was the patron god of several cities including Corinth, and held to be second only to Athena even in Athens. Meanwhile, Hades have very few cults, and in fact, some considered Hades no more than an aspect of Zeus or [Dionysus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23465" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7719" RevisionGUID="54adabed-fa74-4904-930a-20a518066f04" CreationDate="2020-10-29T11:29:06.737" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 64 characters in body" Text="Poseidon does actually live underwater. From the *Iliad*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Forthwith then he went down from the rugged mount, striding forth with swift footsteps, and the high mountains trembled and the woodland beneath the immortal feet of Poseidon as he went. Thrice he strode in his course, and with the fourth stride he reached his goal, even Aegae, where was **his famous palace builded in the depths of the mere**, golden and gleaming, imperishable for ever.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Hom. Il. 13.21-22&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Poseidon's inclusion on the list [Twelve Opympians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Olympians) is rather more due to him being a major deity, and a much more significant target of worship, than Hades. Poseidon was the patron god of several cities including Corinth, and held to be second only to Athena even in Athens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meanwhile, Hades have very few cults, and in fact, some considered Hades no more than an aspect of Zeus or [Dionysus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23466" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7720" RevisionGUID="3246381d-995e-446f-8cd0-f94b8a16a7ce" CreationDate="2020-10-30T10:42:48.217" UserId="5726" Text="Note&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;I am using the translated versions of the [Iliad][1] and [Odyssey][2] as provided by [The Internet Classics Archive][3]. The answer from @Codosaur from my question [How much time is a generation in the odyssey and Iliad?][4] this answer concludes that a generation is 30 years, with the exception of Sparta. Also [How old were Paris and Achilles at the time of the Trojan War?][5] to build upon what &quot;young age&quot; means.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Iliad ##&#xD;&#xA;In the Iliad Nestor is noted to have been king of Pylos for 2 generations and starting on his third. This would mean that Nestor was more than 60 years old when the Trojan War started and my guess is between 70 and 80 since he was young when Herakles asked Neleus (Nestor's father) to cleanse him of a blood-debt. When Neleus refused, Herakles killed him and his sons, with the exception of Nestor. This would have made Nestor king of Pylos at a (as Ovid nicely puts it in his Metamorphoses) young age. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; With this the son of Peleus dashed his gold-bestudded sceptre on the&#xD;&#xA;ground and took his seat, while the son of Atreus was beginning fiercely&#xD;&#xA;from his place upon the other side. Then uprose smooth-tongued Nestor,&#xD;&#xA;the facile speaker of the Pylians, and the words fell from his lips&#xD;&#xA;sweeter than honey. **Two generations of men born and bred in Pylos&#xD;&#xA;had passed away under his rule, and he was now reigning over the third.&#xD;&#xA;With all sincerity and goodwill, therefore, he addressed them thus:-**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Trojan War went on for about ten years which would make Nestor around 80 or 90 when he sailed home directly after the conclusion of the war.&#xD;&#xA;## Odyssey ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Odyssey, Telemachus notes that Nestor is like an immortal because he has *reigned for 3 generations*, again this gives a broad indication of his age since reigning for 3 generations gives us 30 possible years for him to rule this third generation. However by building on the fact that the Trojan War took ten years and my own counting we can safely *assume* that Nestor was close to 90 or 100 years of age. This would look like he was indeed immortal since as noted in the Iliad, two generations had bred and passed away under his rule, making it seems like he has been there forever, since he already outlived the fathers and grandfathers of the generation under his current rule.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Mentor,&quot; answered Telemachus, &quot;do not let us talk about it any more.&#xD;&#xA;There is no chance of my father's ever coming back; the gods have&#xD;&#xA;long since counselled his destruction. **There is something else, however,&#xD;&#xA;about which I should like to ask Nestor, for he knows much more than&#xD;&#xA;any one else does. They say he has reigned for three generations so&#xD;&#xA;that it is like talking to an immortal.** Tell me, therefore, Nestor,&#xD;&#xA;and tell me true; how did Agamemnon come to die in that way? What&#xD;&#xA;was Menelaus doing? And how came false Aegisthus to kill so far better&#xD;&#xA;a man than himself? Was Menelaus away from Achaean Argos, voyaging&#xD;&#xA;elsewhither among mankind, that Aegisthus took heart and killed Agamemnon?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I leave you with [this comment][6] of @DukeZhou beneath his answer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; time is a fuzzy thing in the Greek mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.mb.txt&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/odyssey.mb.txt&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://classics.mit.edu/index.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/7713/how-much-time-is-a-generation-in-the-odyssey-and-iliad&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1995/how-old-were-paris-and-achilles-at-the-time-of-the-trojan-war&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1995/how-old-were-paris-and-achilles-at-the-time-of-the-trojan-war#comment11548_2045" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23467" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7721" RevisionGUID="3cc071e9-bddb-4f80-b3ca-3cfd495589b2" CreationDate="2020-10-30T13:48:37.793" UserId="7095" Text="Adding to @DukeZhou's answer, why these specific animals - these are the same animals that Abraham used in the earlier [Book of Genesis, 15:9][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;He answered, “Bring Me a three-year-old heifer, a three-year-old she-goat, a three-year-old ram, a turtledove, and a young bird.”&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Jewish commentator [Rashi][2] [explains][3] the significance of each sacrifice as such:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Three-year-old heifer - THREE HEIFERS: symbolical of three sacrifices of bullocks, viz., the bullock offered on the Day of Atonement, the bullock offered when the correct interpretation of a precept was unknown (העלם) to leaders of the nation (see Leviticus 4:13), and the heifer whose neck had to be broken (see Deuteronomy 21:4) (Genesis Rabbah 44:14). Three-year-old she-goat - THREE GOATS — symbolical of the goat the blood of which was sprinkled in the Holy of Holies, of the goats of the additional sacrifices on Festivals, and of the goat brought as a sin-offering by an individual (Genesis Rabbah 44:11). Three-year-old ram - AND THREE RAMS—symbolical of the trespass offering brought by a man who knows for certain that he has committed certain offences, the offering brought by a man who is in doubt whether he has committed such offence, and the ewe brought by an individual as a sin-offering.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the turtle-dove and pidgeon, the Hebrew is תור וגוזל, which Rashi explains to mean תור ובן יונה, which translates to turtle-dove and pidgeon. Though he doesn't say it explicitly, it's clear that the continuous theme here is that all of these animals were eventually commanded by God for usage in the Tabernacle and later in the Temple.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Genesis.15.9?lang=bi&amp;with=all&amp;lang2=en&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashi&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Genesis.15?lang=bi&amp;aliyot=0&amp;p2=Rashi_on_Genesis.15.9.1&amp;lang2=bi&amp;w2=all&amp;lang3=en" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23468" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7718" RevisionGUID="a746757b-0b9f-4562-aeda-f6d7f22eea47" CreationDate="2020-10-31T08:28:07.693" UserId="7329" Comment="added 8 characters in body" Text="**Noppera-bō** is the closest candidate to your description of a 'soul stealing' mythological creature. However, note that it can be described as 'face stealing' not 'soul stealing'.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Noppera-bō][1] is a Japanese 'face less' *Yokai* (spirit), which looks like a human with just a plain sheet of featureless skin on their faces (no mouth or nose etc). It is believed in Japanese mythology that even though the Noppera-bō can disguise themselves as humans to 'scare' them, they are actually harmless, often disguising themselves as their target's face.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the other hand, we can link a Noppera-bō as a depiction of the **Face-Stealing [Koh][2]** in the Avatar series. However, over there Koh is a shown as an evil spirit who steals faces of anything (human or animal) which expresses any sort of emotion in front of him. Thus to survive, one has to stay expressionless in front of Koh. If not done so he steals the face of his target and the victim will not die but remain faceless, eventually entering a state between 'life and death'. Moreover, Koh is shown as a large insect in these series with several pointed legs like a beetle, rather than a human.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other shapeshifters linked to a Noppera-bō can be a Kitsune (Japanese fox) or a [Mujina][3] (raccoon dog), known to deceive humans. (If that is any use to you).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second most closest candidate to your description could be [**the Sluaghs**][4] according to Celtic Folklore. In Irish, sluagh means '[host][5]'. They were the spirits of the restless dead - so evil they were even banned from hell, therefore, they just roamed around in groups, coming from the West, to try to enter a house where a person had just died, to steal their souls. They either appeared as flocks of birds(ravens) or beasts, hunting for the weak or sickly people who were to die soon, waiting to devour their souls.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lewis Spence writes in 'The Magic Arts in Celtic Britain';&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;In the Western Isles of Scotland the Sluagh, or fairy host, was regarded as composed of the souls of the dead flying through the air, and the feast of the dead at Hallowe'en was likewise the festival of the fairies.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noppera-b%C5%8D&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://avatar.fandom.com/wiki/Koh#:~:text=Koh%20to%20Aang.&amp;text=Koh%20the%20Face%20Stealer%20is,tree%20in%20the%20Spirit%20World.&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujina&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sluagh&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.ranker.com/list/celtic-sluagh-myth/hugh-landman" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23469" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7712" RevisionGUID="42111537-0891-4be7-b45c-25ed82875f20" CreationDate="2020-11-01T08:40:57.100" UserId="5726" Comment="added 360 characters in body" Text="[Gilgamesh][1] and [Enkidu][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gilgamesh was the king in/of [Uruk][3] of southern Babylonia and known as an autocratic, tyrant and abuser of his powers as king. While not a very nice way to start the story with a hero but as Andrew George notes; the poet who composed the piece tried to make Gilgamesh human, with all the follies that go with ultimate power and authority.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [gods][4] of [Sumer][5] heard the pleas and lamentations of Gilgamesh' people and decided to do something about it. They send in a &quot;[wildman][6]&quot;1 called Enkidu, as powerful as Gilgamesh but without the flaws Gilgamesh exhibited while &quot;drunk on power&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gilgamesh is a man of the city while Enkidu is a man of the wild. Enkidu goes to the city of Uruk to meet Gilgamesh with his own equal power, and stop Gilgamesh from abusing his people. After learning how to basically, be human (transitioning from a &quot;wildman&quot;), Enkidu meets Gilgamesh to teach him a lesson in humility and fairness.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Gilgamesh and Enkidu get into a big fight and struggle for some time until finally coming to a complete standstill since they where equally matched in power. After coming to a standstill they recognize in each other a best friend, something they became and remained until Enkidu's death after many adventures.&#xA;&#xA;Together they slayed the monster [Humbaba][7] and the [Bull of Heaven][8], and for this Enkidu is punished by the gods and dies. The deep and  tragic loss of Enkidu prompted Gilgamesh to undertake a quest to escape death by obtaining immortality. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1:  Noted by Wikipedia &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The apparition of Enkidu as a primitive man seems to be an innovation&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the Old Babylonian version (1300 - 1000 BC), as he was originally a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; servant-warrior in the Sumerian poems.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources : &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Babylonian Gilgamesh epic : introduction, critical edition and cuneiform texts by A.R George][9]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The epic of Gilgamesh: the Babylonian epic poem and other texts in Akkadian and Sumerian A.R George][10]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Epic of Gilgamesh, Lecture by Andrew George][11]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgamesh&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enkidu&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruk&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_religion#Pantheon&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_man&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humbaba&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_of_Heaven&#xA;  [9]: https://www.worldcat.org/title/babylonian-gilgamesh-epic-introduction-critical-edition-and-cuneiform-texts/oclc/819941336&#xA;  [10]: https://www.worldcat.org/title/epic-of-gilgamesh-the-babylonian-epic-poem-and-other-texts-in-akkadian-and-sumerian/oclc/901129328&#xA;  [11]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rd7MrGy_tEg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23470" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2904" RevisionGUID="6e6cb029-c6a7-4de4-9de6-788938d99fd1" CreationDate="2020-11-02T00:00:50.110" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23471" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7722" RevisionGUID="b0408cf3-249c-47bc-8032-9c87afe3f0e1" CreationDate="2020-11-03T09:14:23.710" UserId="7095" Text="The Talmud in [Bava Metzia 86b][1] says on the story of Abraham and the three angels (emphasis mine):&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;The Gemara continues its analysis of the verse: “Let now a little water be fetched and wash your feet” ([Genesis 18:4][2]). Rabbi Yannai, son of Rabbi Yishmael, said that the guests said to Abraham: Are you suspicious that we are **Arabs who bow to the dust of their feet**?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any evidence of a pre-Islamic Arabic worship of dust?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Bava_Metzia.86b.16?lang=bi&amp;with=all&amp;lang2=en&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Genesis.18.4?lang=bi&amp;aliyot=0" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23472" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7722" RevisionGUID="b0408cf3-249c-47bc-8032-9c87afe3f0e1" CreationDate="2020-11-03T09:14:23.710" UserId="7095" Text="Pre-Islamic Arabic dust worship?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23473" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7722" RevisionGUID="b0408cf3-249c-47bc-8032-9c87afe3f0e1" CreationDate="2020-11-03T09:14:23.710" UserId="7095" Text="|arabic|middle-east|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23474" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7723" RevisionGUID="ceb2c3c4-7819-46d0-88d2-bcf48843951c" CreationDate="2020-11-03T11:00:25.097" UserId="7095" Text="Stacey Watson wrote [an article][1] on &quot;Vladimir's pantheon&quot;, which is a reference to [Vladimir the Great][2]'s reform of the Slavic paganist practices by unifying them into one central cult that worshiped a pantheon of seven deities (some call this a six-deity pantheon, as Veles was separated from the others (see below)). In short:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Perun:** The god of the sky, thunder and war. Most of the statues were made of oak or stone and, in Perun’s case, oak was the most common material used to create his statues. Many villages would carve his statue on the most note-worthy oak tree in the area.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Dazhbog:** The giver god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Stribog:** The son of Perun and god of winds, air and sky.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Simargl/Semargl:** The god of fire and fertility.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Mokosh:** The goddess of fate and the protector of women in childbirth. She also watched over the weaving and spinning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Khors:** The god of the solar disk.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Veles:** King of the underworld, harvests and cattle. Veles was separated from the other deities of the pantheon for some reason. As such, he had a separate cultic center a the bottom of the Kievan hills.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Watson also mentions a pre-Vladimiric deity:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Rod:** The creator of all things that exist, including the other gods, which makes him technically the supreme Slavic god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [Wikipedia][3], Rod was worshiped with offerings of bread, porridge, cheese and mead. He also had a manifestation of the microcosm of kinship called [Domovoi/Domovoy][4], the god of the household and kinship ancestry. Domovoi sometimes had a female counterpart called Domania, goddess of the household. According to Wikipedia:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Sacrifices in honour of the Domovoy are practised to make him participate in the life of the kin, and to appease and reconcile him in the case of anger. These include the offering of what is left of the evening meal, or, in cases of great anger, the sacrifice of a cock at midnight and the sprinkling of the nooks and corners of the common hall or the courtyard with the animal's blood. Otherwise, a slice of bread strewn with salt and wrapped in a white cloth is offered in the hall or in the courtyard while the members of the kin bow towards the four directions reciting prayers to the Domovoy.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [the Encyclopedia of Ukraine][5], the Rus at a time had a ruling god named **Troian**, who seems to have been the father of Khors, Perun and Veles. Sometimes Troian was identified with [Svarog][6], god of celestial fire and blacksmithing ([source 1][7], [source 2][5]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other pagan practices are mentioned in the essay Principal Aspects and Problems of Theology in Kievan Rus' by Gerhard Podskalasky and Gerald Chapple ([available now on JSTOR][8]):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;In the canonical questions and answers of the Novgorod deacon Kirik (b. 1110) Bishop Nifont threatened with a powerful &quot;woe [unto you]!&quot; both the offerings of food to the nature gods Rod and Rozhanitsa and the violators of their prohibitions. Regarding the blessing of the funeral feast - whose pagan origin led to its radical suppression in the West...On the other hand, six weeks' penance awaited women who took their children to the &quot;Varangian&quot; (i.e. Latin) priest or the pagan magician to be blessed...Another sermon &quot;on the true faith&quot; describes and condemns...the frequent occurence of *dvoeverie* among the neophytes who retained their faith in the pagan pantheon after being baptized...as expressed - especeially at weddings - in games, songs, dances, and sacrifices to idols...&quot; (pg. 6-8)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Petro P. Tolochko in Religious Sites in Kiev During the Reign of Volodimer Sviatoslavich ([available at JSTOR][9]), Vladimir built a temple for the six central deities of his pantheon in the Kievan hills. It was comprised of: &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;a stone shrine made of slabs of sandstone mixed with clay and had an ellipsoid shape. Four-cornered projections emerging from the four sides of the temple were oriented to the four points of the compass.&quot; (pg. 1-2)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another structure was found beneath Kiev itself:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Trenches had ben dug beneath [3 Volodymyrs'ka Street] in the loess to a depth of 60 to 90 centimeters. The trenches were filled with large stones, broken pieces of thin, large bricks, pieces of slate, fractions of lime-water with admixtures of ground-brick, and other materials...The plan was an elongated rectangle...Projecting from the rectangle's northern, southern, and eastern sides were six rounded symmetrical projections shaped like flower petals...They could well be the remains of the temple that is mentioned in the chronicle entries for 945-980. The six petal-shaped projections could have served as pedestals for the idols of the six Slavic gods, namely, Perun, Khors, Dazhboh, Stryboh, Symarhl, and Mokoshka. This is supported by the discovery of a large ashpit located in a cup-like dperession...it contained layers of coals and ash, burnt clay, and a large quantity of animal bones, mostly of bulls. A study of the stratigraphy of the ashpit confirms that it was formed by the burning of a ritual fire. This finding fits in well with the Hustyn' Chronicle, which reports that an eternal fire was maintained beside the temple of Perun.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://lidenz.ru/7-slavic-gods-kievan-rus/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_the_Great&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_paganism#Kievan_Rus'_official_religion_and_popular_cults&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domovoy&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/display.asp?linkpath=pages%5CM%5CY%5CMythology.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://mythology.wikia.org/wiki/Svarog&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.ibiblio.org/sergei/Dazhdbog.html&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.jstor.org/stable/41036275?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://www.jstor.org/stable/41036278?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23475" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7723" RevisionGUID="441f284a-ccd4-4358-89e1-99bbe69278fe" CreationDate="2020-11-03T11:05:53.103" UserId="7095" Comment="added 10 characters in body" Text="Stacey Watson wrote [an article][1] on &quot;Vladimir's pantheon&quot;, which is a reference to [Vladimir the Great][2]'s reform of the Slavic paganist practices by unifying them into one central cult that worshiped a pantheon of seven deities (some call this a six-deity pantheon, as Veles was separated from the others (see below)). In short:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Perun:** The god of the sky, thunder and war. Most of the statues were made of oak or stone and, in Perun’s case, oak was the most common material used to create his statues. Many villages would carve his statue on the most note-worthy oak tree in the area.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Dazhbog:** The giver god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Stribog:** The son of Perun and god of winds, air and sky.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Simargl/Semargl:** The god of fire and fertility.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Mokosh:** The goddess of fate and the protector of women in childbirth. She also watched over the weaving and spinning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Khors:** The god of the solar disk.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Veles:** King of the underworld, harvests and cattle. Veles was separated from the other deities of the pantheon for some reason. As such, he had a separate cultic center a the bottom of the Kievan hills.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Watson also mentions a pre-Vladimiric deity:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Rod:** The creator of all things that exist, including the other gods, which makes him technically the supreme Slavic god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [Wikipedia][3], Rod was worshiped with offerings of bread, porridge, cheese and mead. He also had a manifestation of the microcosm of kinship called **[Domovoi/Domovoy][4]**, the god of the household and kinship ancestry. Domovoi sometimes had a female counterpart called **Domania**, goddess of the household. According to Wikipedia:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Sacrifices in honour of the Domovoy are practised to make him participate in the life of the kin, and to appease and reconcile him in the case of anger. These include the offering of what is left of the evening meal, or, in cases of great anger, the sacrifice of a cock at midnight and the sprinkling of the nooks and corners of the common hall or the courtyard with the animal's blood. Otherwise, a slice of bread strewn with salt and wrapped in a white cloth is offered in the hall or in the courtyard while the members of the kin bow towards the four directions reciting prayers to the Domovoy.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [the Encyclopedia of Ukraine][5], the Rus at a time had a ruling god named **Troian**, who seems to have been the father of Khors, Perun and Veles. Sometimes Troian was identified with **[Svarog][6]**, god of celestial fire and blacksmithing ([source 1][7], [source 2][5]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other pagan practices are mentioned in the essay Principal Aspects and Problems of Theology in Kievan Rus' by Gerhard Podskalasky and Gerald Chapple ([available now on JSTOR][8]):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;In the canonical questions and answers of the Novgorod deacon Kirik (b. 1110) Bishop Nifont threatened with a powerful &quot;woe [unto you]!&quot; both the offerings of food to the nature gods Rod and Rozhanitsa and the violators of their prohibitions. Regarding the blessing of the funeral feast - whose pagan origin led to its radical suppression in the West...On the other hand, six weeks' penance awaited women who took their children to the &quot;Varangian&quot; (i.e. Latin) priest or the pagan magician to be blessed...Another sermon &quot;on the true faith&quot; describes and condemns...the frequent occurence of *dvoeverie* among the neophytes who retained their faith in the pagan pantheon after being baptized...as expressed - especeially at weddings - in games, songs, dances, and sacrifices to idols...&quot; (pg. 6-8)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Petro P. Tolochko in Religious Sites in Kiev During the Reign of Volodimer Sviatoslavich ([available at JSTOR][9]), Vladimir built a temple for the six central deities of his pantheon in the Kievan hills. It was comprised of: &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;a stone shrine made of slabs of sandstone mixed with clay and had an ellipsoid shape. Four-cornered projections emerging from the four sides of the temple were oriented to the four points of the compass.&quot; (pg. 1-2)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another structure was found beneath Kiev itself:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Trenches had ben dug beneath [3 Volodymyrs'ka Street] in the loess to a depth of 60 to 90 centimeters. The trenches were filled with large stones, broken pieces of thin, large bricks, pieces of slate, fractions of lime-water with admixtures of ground-brick, and other materials...The plan was an elongated rectangle...Projecting from the rectangle's northern, southern, and eastern sides were six rounded symmetrical projections shaped like flower petals...They could well be the remains of the temple that is mentioned in the chronicle entries for 945-980. The six petal-shaped projections could have served as pedestals for the idols of the six Slavic gods, namely, Perun, Khors, Dazhboh, Stryboh, Symarhl, and Mokoshka. This is supported by the discovery of a large ashpit located in a cup-like dperession...it contained layers of coals and ash, burnt clay, and a large quantity of animal bones, mostly of bulls. A study of the stratigraphy of the ashpit confirms that it was formed by the burning of a ritual fire. This finding fits in well with the Hustyn' Chronicle, which reports that an eternal fire was maintained beside the temple of Perun.&quot; (pg. 2-3)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://lidenz.ru/7-slavic-gods-kievan-rus/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_the_Great&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_paganism#Kievan_Rus'_official_religion_and_popular_cults&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domovoy&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/display.asp?linkpath=pages%5CM%5CY%5CMythology.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://mythology.wikia.org/wiki/Svarog&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.ibiblio.org/sergei/Dazhdbog.html&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.jstor.org/stable/41036275?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://www.jstor.org/stable/41036278?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23476" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6375" RevisionGUID="152cd8ae-23dc-48a6-9a52-26142d2c7b9a" CreationDate="2020-11-03T20:15:43.627" UserId="7095" Comment="Corrected a few spelling mistakes." Text="According to [this](https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/348379/proper-se-site-to-ask-about-the-flying-spaghetti-monster?noredirect=1#comment1165806_348379) question I like to know, about this topic:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When I was reading about the [Flying Spaghetti Monster][1] and this question came in my mind: Has something similar appeared in the middle east before?  this kind of action happen before, do you know any similar action to the religion in this area of earth?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If yes, what elements of the flying spaghetti monster does it share?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How has it changed since its inception?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23477" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="6375" RevisionGUID="152cd8ae-23dc-48a6-9a52-26142d2c7b9a" CreationDate="2020-11-03T20:15:43.627" UserId="7095" Comment="Corrected a few spelling mistakes." Text="Has there been anything like the Flying Spaghetti Monster originating in the Middle East?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23478" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="6375" RevisionGUID="152cd8ae-23dc-48a6-9a52-26142d2c7b9a" CreationDate="2020-11-03T20:15:43.627" Comment="Proposed by 7095 approved by 53, -1 edit id of 1846" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23479" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6375" RevisionGUID="6ade694a-9e78-4e3f-8056-a554d21c279e" CreationDate="2020-11-03T20:15:43.627" UserId="5726" Comment="Corrected a few spelling mistakes." Text="According to [this](https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/348379/proper-se-site-to-ask-about-the-flying-spaghetti-monster?noredirect=1#comment1165806_348379) question I like to know, about this topic:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When I was reading about the [Flying Spaghetti Monster][1] and this question came in my mind: Has something similar appeared in the middle east before?  This kind of action happen before, do you know any similar action to the religion in this area of Earth?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If yes, what elements of the flying spaghetti monster does it share?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How has it changed since its inception?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23480" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6375" RevisionGUID="e479ee17-a82e-4c29-b562-23330465617b" CreationDate="2020-11-04T11:18:14.820" UserId="6969" Comment="added 302 characters in body" Text="According to [this](https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/348379/proper-se-site-to-ask-about-the-flying-spaghetti-monster?noredirect=1#comment1165806_348379) question I like to know, about this topic:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When I was reading about the [Flying Spaghetti Monster][1] and this question came in my mind: Has something similar appeared in the middle east before?  This kind of action happen before, do you know any similar action to the religion in this area of Earth?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Update:**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; similar action as Not specially satirical religion, but one or more&#xD;&#xA;&gt; movement to create a humankind god for competition with the already&#xD;&#xA;&gt; humankind's gods model, in middle-east geography, which could have fun&#xD;&#xA;&gt; also inside of it like the [Flying Spaghetti Monster][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If yes, what elements of the flying spaghetti monster does it share?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How has it changed since its inception?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23481" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7704" RevisionGUID="f4c7dbb3-7ad9-4ee9-988f-e4e6806e120c" CreationDate="2020-11-05T13:50:22.560" UserId="5726" Comment="deleted 86 characters in body" Text="&#xD;&#xA;Athena was more or less the counterpart of Ares in all things (also in gender). For one, Ares was hated to the point where Zeus called Ares a whining double faced liar who is most hateful of all gods who hold Olympus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then looking at him darkly Zeus who gathers the clouds spoke to him:&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Do not sit beside me and whine, you double-faced liar.&#xD;&#xA;To me you are the most hateful of all gods who hold Olympus.&#xD;&#xA;Forever quarrelling is dear to your heart, wars and battles.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt; [Iliad, Book 5, lines 798–891, 895–898][1] &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Athena was the Olympian of choice among the military. Ares stands for the unbridled rage in the midst of battle. While Athena stands for the tactical aspect of warfare and thinking about your strategy instead of mindlessly running into battle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another reason is that Athena as a deity &quot;evolved&quot; over time from a household protector with roots in much earlier deities, they started out as a protector of homes and as homes got bigger of palaces and eventually cities. It has been argued that at that time in the Eastern Mediterranean and Near East there where many warrior goddesses as Jeffrey M. Hurwit notes in his book *The Athenian Acropolis: History, Mythology, and Archaeology from the Neolithic Era to the Present* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Mesopotamians had Ishtar or Astarte, the Canaanites had Anat and the Egyptians had Neith - and there is no reason why such a goddess should not have figured in the pantheon of Bronze Age Greece. &lt;sub&gt;[The Athenian Acropolis: History, Mythology, and Archaeology from the Neolithic Era to the Present p.14][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In some versions she represents both sexes at the same time (emphasis mine)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Only-begotten, noble race of Zeus, blessed and fierce, who joyest in caves to rove: O warlike Pallas *(Athena's epithet)*, whose illustrious kind, ineffable, and effable we find : magnanimous and famed, the rocky height, and groves, and shady mountains thee delight: in arms rejoicing, who with furies dire and wild the souls of mortals dost inspire. Gymnastic virgin of terrific mind, dire Gorgon's bane, unmarried, blessed, kind: mother of arts, impetuous; understood as fury by the bad, but wisdom by the good. **Female and male, the arts of war are thine**, O much-formed, Drakaina (She-Dragon), inspired divine: over the Phlegraion Gigantes (Phlegraean Giants), roused to ire, thy coursers driving with destructive dire. Tritogeneia, of splendid mien, purger of evils, all-victorious queen. Hear me, O Goddess, when to thee I pray, with supplicating voice both night and day, and in my latest hour give peace and health, propitious times, and necessary wealth, and ever present be thy votaries aid, O much implored, art's parent, blue-eyed maid.&quot; &lt;sub&gt; Orphic Hymn 32 to Athena (trans. Taylor) (Greek hymns C3rd B.C. to 2nd A.D.)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Various traditions about Athena arose, from local legends and  identifications of the Athena with other deities. The most widely spread common notion which the Greeks had about her is, that she was the daughter of Zeus and Metis. Her father was most powerfull and her mother the wisest amongst the gods, so Athena was a combination of the two and therefore a goddess in whom power and wisdom were harmoniously blended (that's why she is sometimes represented as both male and female). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She doesn't seem to represent any particular physical power manifested in nature (unlike some other Olympians). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.theoi.com/Text/HomerIliad5.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://books.google.nl/books?id=0pQ4AAAAIAAJ&amp;q=Athena%20patron%20of%20heroes&amp;pg=PA18&amp;redir_esc=y#v=onepage&amp;q=ishtar&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23483" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7725" RevisionGUID="406af956-03b9-45a4-9cfc-24caf4068ac6" CreationDate="2020-11-06T20:43:58.137" UserId="7390" Text="It´s pretty clear according to Ezekiel 28 that he is called a cherub. YET, very interestingly, when the Lord instructed Moses in Numbers to make the serpent and mount it on a pole, the actual word used in Hebrew is “seraph”, which is the singular form of the plural “seraphim”.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Hebrew word “seraphim” is used in Isaiah 6 when the prophet sees God´s throne room and describes the amazing creatures there and calls them seraphim. The English translators simply transcribed the Hebrew word into English and redenred it “seraphim” in these verses in Isaiah.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Yet in others contexts where the Hebrew word “seraph” is used, it refers to snakes, the actual slithering reptile. And the translations in English do translate it as “snakes” or “fiery serpents” in those contexts. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why the change? I read one commentary that stated that the translators did not want to use “fiery serpents” for the holy creatures in Isaiah because of the negative connotaion the word “serpent” has and using it to describe the holy creatrues would be problematic. So not knowing what to do, the translators just transcribed it into “seraphim.” Now when Numbers speaks about the snakes that bit the Israelites it uses another word for snake, “na-chash”. But when the Lord spoke about making one and lifting it up on a pole, He used “SERAPH”!!!!!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So it would read like this:  “Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a SERAPH (fiery serpent) and mount it on a pole. When anyone who is bitten looks at it, he will live.” Num. 21:8. So, we could also translate it this way when the Lord refers to that verse in John 3:14, “Just as Moses lifted up the SERAPH (snake) in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up.” &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Obviously the picture of the venomous snakes is a picture of Satan and sin, and the pole of the Son of Man being lifted up on the cross and made sin on our behalf. Yet He refers to Satan as a SERAPH!!!!!!!!!!!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Maybe Satan was like a combo of both cherub and seraph. This might even be related to having a dual function of priest and king. In Revelation 4, the living creatures are similar to the cherubim described in Ezekiel, but have 6 wings like the seraphim in Isaiah. So even there, they seem to be a combo cherub-seraph.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whehter cherub or seraph or both, looks like he might have not been an archangel, but this kind of other creature, even higher than archangels. Even Michael the archangel would not pronounce a reviling judgement against Satan, but referred to the Lord to rebuke him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23485" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4777" RevisionGUID="644244e0-75b8-4caf-bf79-c40a038634e6" CreationDate="2020-11-06T21:31:54.440" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="**Universal themes that can be found in many mythologies of the peoples of the world:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **Love** - for example there is entire category in wikipedia for this theme. [Love and lust goddesses][1] - this is about mythology of different peoples of the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **War** - according to wikipedia (again) count of gods of war is more then gods of love [List of war deities][2]. And in russian too: [Боги войны][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **Food** - it is more complicated theme then two previous. There are [List of fertility deities][4], [Agricultural goddesses][5], and even stories of the food or some relation with it may occur with other gods or mythological  creatures https://mythology.net/?s=food&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Love_and_lust_goddesses&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_deities&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%8F:%D0%91%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B8_%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B9%D0%BD%D1%8B&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fertility_deities&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Agricultural_goddesses" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23486" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4823" RevisionGUID="65b2637c-7d80-4846-b2dc-61002ed4fe56" CreationDate="2020-11-06T21:34:09.687" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="deleted 19 characters in body; edited body" Text="Some meaning of this two words are same, and some are not. In other words these two words are synonyms in some cases.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See **Longman Dictionary Of Language And Culture:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **phan‧tom** */ˈfæntəm/* noun&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1. a shadowy likeness of a dead person that seems to appear on earth; GHOST.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2. something that exists only in one's imagination.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **ghost** /ɡəʊst/ noun&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1. the spirit of a dead person that some people think they can feel or see in a place&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2. also **ghost‧writ‧er** ...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 3. **give up the ghost** ...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4. **the ghost of a** ...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 5. **the ghost of Christmas past** ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Stereotypes of ghosts:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Stereotypes of ghosts][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/UQwzx.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23487" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3292" RevisionGUID="eae6401b-5eb7-4076-9af2-a55cfb1a0495" CreationDate="2020-11-06T21:39:58.083" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="[Hermes][1] - was the emissary and messenger of the gods. Wikipedia don't says that, but he was also a god of games and luck.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23488" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4700" RevisionGUID="9a355c49-1100-4a57-bf3e-5a41eb2f8808" CreationDate="2020-11-06T21:43:01.697" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="added 62 characters in body; added 176 characters in body" Text="**Домовой** lives in almost every home. Most often he may be found where several generations of the family lived. To reveal his presence is difficult, but if a home is not happy, he will certainly show his displeasure. He is able to protect against many misfortunes: fires, scandals, theft, ill-wishers or foes. However, if a family start show disrespect to their home, make a mess, **Домовой** becomes angry, and then you'll know exactly that he lives in that home.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;People believed that without a **Домовой** there will be misfortune in the family, so when moving in the last night or before leaving the old house invited **Домовой** to a new place saying: *Ангел мой, пойдём со мной* (my angel, come with me) 3 times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Signs of the presence of the [Домовой][1] in the apartment&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Домовой][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### 1. Loud noise&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sometimes at the night **Домовой** may manifest himself, rearranging the dishes in the kitchen, slamming doors, loud stomping. He usually gets mad when the hostess stops carefully monitor the cleanliness. In this case, the **Домовой** gets harmful, hides things, thereby calling for cleaning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### 2. Pets&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most widespread pets, cats and dogs, always see and hear more than people. If you noticed that the dog sometimes cautiously looks into the corner, starts wagging her tail and trying to play like herself, most likely, she sees **Домовой**. Also cats can suddenly freeze, and then are beginning purr, arching back, as if invisible hand caress them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### 3. Loss of sweets or small items&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Домовой** may steal a few candies, wrappers from which will periodically catch your eye in the most unexpected places. Also he may shift keys, scissors and other objects out of harmfulness. Pour milk in a small cup, put porridge with butter in a plate and put it in the corner. Ask **Домовой** apologize for the carelessness and ask him to guard your house with the same force. Also ask to return the lost things in exchange, for example, for marmalade.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### 4. Dreams&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a dream **Домовой** may prompt you the solution of the problem, indicate who from the inner circle are hostile. In rare cases, **Домовой** may indicate the place where the treasure is hidden. So he shows respect, thanks for caring, but most often it is gratitude for the fact that when you moved you didn't forgot about him and offered to go to a new home.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### 5. Safety&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We often feel anxiety, but when we return home, we notice that fears gone somewhere. Peace mood appears, warmth and comfort. And at night nightmares don't torture us we easily fall asleep and wake up cheerful and rested. It is also a sign of a presence **Домовой** in the house who cares about our safety and peace of mind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### 6. Warning&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sometimes it also happens that at the night we suddenly wake up with a strong sense of anxiety, and in the dream feel like something swooped down and presses. So **Домовой** warns of impending danger. Also, he may make loud noise, slam the door or press the doorbell. In this case, you should take care of your safety and prevent leakage of gas, water or fire, double-checking all the important places in the house.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### 7. Company&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Often before someone without notification looks to visit unto you you will feel it. This may be intuition, but most often the **Домовой** warns of all uninvited guests in advance. A quiet knock or jingled phone alerts about people with good intentions. Sense of anxiety, suddenly crashed glass, worried pets signal, that foes want to visit your house.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### 8. Children&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Домовой** refers to junior family members with special attention and respect, play with them and protect. Often you may notice that the child puts an extra tableware for a doll tea party, laughs loudly, says something into the void. Young mothers often notice that suddenly shouted in a dream child becomes silent, the blanket on him is corrected, and the cradle slowly swings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### 9. Feelings&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When moving to a new home, you should carefully listen to your feelings, especially if someone lived in the new house before you. Often owners leave the apartments and houses, without taking away spirit with themselves. In this case, **Домовой** is unlikely to be friendly to you. His trust must be earned. If the feeling of anxiety don't leaves you give to the little spirit some dainty and offer friendship. In as a gift you can give him a shred of a tissue, old clothes, hay, shoe. If this is a private house, then **Домовой** necessarily choose a secluded area, where he will settle with great comfort. In apartments, **Домовой** feels more difficult because of the small space, but here he also may choose a place under the bathtub, on the entresol or in an old suitcase. If over time you have established life, you feel peace, so then **Домовой** took you for the new owners and is ready to serve. If the feeling of anxiety increases, things disappear in the house, scandals become more frequent, it is worth thinking about how to drive away the evil spirit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### 10. Appearance&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In rare cases, **Домовой** reveals itself. If the little grey or smoky kitten implored to enter your door, let him in. **Домовой** is often embodied in these animals. It also happens that **Домовой** warns about something significant so much that dares to appear in front of us. This may be a small vague silhouette, a cat, a gray-haired old man. It is important at this point to concentrate and ask what news brought your home defender. Feel warmth - happy news wait you; cold, chills, shaking or a sense of danger - expect trouble.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Original article in russian: [10 признаков присутствия домового в квартире][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B9&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ik6qi.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://dailyhoro.ru/article/10-priznakov-prisutstviya-domovogo-v-kvartire/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23489" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5681" RevisionGUID="063d12a4-ef14-48f0-92dd-9e211737acb3" CreationDate="2020-11-06T21:50:12.180" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="deleted 8 characters in body; added 4 characters in body" Text="*Mythologist* - there is no such word in the *Longman Dictionary of English Language and Culture*. But there are other dictionaries of other languages and culture, for example: **[The Explanatory Dictionary of the Russian Language][1]**:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **[Мифолог][2]** - Ученый, исследователь в области мифологии (Толковый словарь Ушакова)&#xD;&#xA;&gt;```&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Mythologist - Scientist, researcher in the field of mythology&#xD;&#xA;&gt;```&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ushakov_Dictionary&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://slovonline.ru/slovar_ushakov/b-13/id-30133/mifolog.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23490" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3477" RevisionGUID="27a7f6c7-2e20-4e01-b274-f5b88cbedeb9" CreationDate="2020-11-06T21:52:49.460" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="It  looks like a kind of square/cross or octagon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Square / cross** is symbol of [Tetragrammaton][1], the four-letter biblical name of the God.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Octagon** is the ultimate balance between physical and invisible forces. Harmony and perfect equality between matter and spirit. The oneness of the two. The male and female as one. The fully aware humanity. Exhalation of the breath of creation. It is completion of a cycle and infinity of consciousness.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23491" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4792" RevisionGUID="de494fd1-59b4-434b-8dd7-560973db2d46" CreationDate="2020-11-07T13:44:38.410" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body" Text="In Slavic mythology, the image of [Chernobog][1] is not associated with any type of weapon, including a hammer. Chernobog is the embodiment of evil, darkness, misery etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some scientists reconstructed a pair of Belobog/Chernobog, who are opposed to each other as &quot;light/dark&quot;, &quot;good/evil&quot;, &quot;happiness/misery&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Chernobog, hummer and other Gods, thing and creatures in that novel are author's fantasy and compilation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Chernobog** - in literal translation &quot;Black God&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Belobog** - in literal translation &quot;White God&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [Norse mythology][2], the mythology of peoples of North Germany and Scandinavia there is a God of thunder, lightning, storms etc, his name is [Thor][3]. His image is associated with hammer - its name is [Mjölnir][4], the one of the most fearsome and powerful weapons in existence, capable of leveling mountains.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Mjölnir][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;May be author of that novel mixed up two images from different cultures?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobog&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mj%C3%B6lnir&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/RDoWi.png &quot;Mjölnir&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23492" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4951" RevisionGUID="9ea3f1ab-353d-488b-bcb8-6cc63e6ea059" CreationDate="2020-11-07T13:47:43.513" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="added 8 characters in body" Text="**[Nephilim][1]** - the offspring of the &quot;sons of God&quot; and the &quot;daughters of men&quot; before the Deluge, according to Genesis 6:1–4 of the Bible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Nephilim][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/4TgyG.jpg &quot;Nephilim&quot;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23493" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4955" RevisionGUID="bbbd2900-89c0-49b0-9f4f-e62fe23d7024" CreationDate="2020-11-07T13:49:01.890" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="added 6 characters in body" Text="**[Sanskrit][1]** -  is the primary liturgical language of Hinduism; a philosophical language of Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, and Jainism; and a literary language and lingua franca for the educated of ancient and medieval India.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**[Vedic Sanskrit][2]** -  is an Indo-European language, more specifically one branch of the Indo-Iranian group. It is the ancient language of the Vedas of Hinduism, texts compiled over the period of the mid-2nd to mid-1st millennium BCE.[1] It was orally preserved, predating the advent of Brahmi script by several centuries. Vedic Sanskrit is an archaic language, whose consensus translation has been challenging.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**[Ancient Indian Languages][3]** - the literary tradition of Ancient India clearly goes back more than 3000 years, and during this period was dominated by Sanskrit, first in its Vedic and later in its classical form. By the time Panini’s Grammar had standardised Sanskrit (about 5th century BC), language had developed another branch besides Sanskrit—the language of the masses, Prakrit or Middle Indo-Aryan (though these terms came into use much later).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Sanskrit][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_Sanskrit&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.importantindia.com/3838/ancient-indian-languages/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/jEd9i.png &quot;Sanskrit&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23494" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4823" RevisionGUID="4fa7a6fa-616f-43a2-96ad-a30480a1c0e9" CreationDate="2020-11-07T13:50:43.747" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="edited body" Text="Some meaning of this two words are same, and some are not. In other words these two words are synonyms in some cases. See *Longman Dictionary Of Language And Culture*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **phan‧tom** */ˈfæntəm/* noun&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1. a shadowy likeness of a dead person that seems to appear on earth; GHOST.   &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2. something that exists only in one's imagination.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **ghost** /ɡəʊst/ noun&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1. the spirit of a dead person that some people think they can feel or see in a place&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2. also **ghost‧writ‧er** ...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 3. **give up the ghost** ...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4. **the ghost of a** ...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 5. **the ghost of Christmas past** ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Stereotypes of ghosts:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;![Stereotypes of ghosts][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/UQwzx.jpg &quot;Stereotypes of ghosts&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23495" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7726" RevisionGUID="8e9092b0-92f2-43a8-bd36-c5d62e0af241" CreationDate="2020-11-07T19:28:42.537" UserId="7106" Text="There are a few Greek myths that are tied to weddings, like Thetis wedding as the origin of the Trojan war. Are there other tales in major mythologies that include weddings? I am looking for myths that include weddings and not origin myths of wedding rituals per se." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23496" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7726" RevisionGUID="8e9092b0-92f2-43a8-bd36-c5d62e0af241" CreationDate="2020-11-07T19:28:42.537" UserId="7106" Text="Non-Greek myths related to weddings" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23497" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7726" RevisionGUID="8e9092b0-92f2-43a8-bd36-c5d62e0af241" CreationDate="2020-11-07T19:28:42.537" UserId="7106" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23498" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7727" RevisionGUID="effa74a7-50d2-478a-afcd-f7e24a28bac0" CreationDate="2020-11-08T01:59:17.573" UserId="7070" Text="There is a pretty famous Norse myth in which Thor has his hammer stolen by a giant, Thrym. The giant says he will only let Thor have the hammer back if Freyja, the goddess of beauty and fertility, will marry him. Freyja says no way (understandable) and Loki convinces Thor to dress up as a bride, and then go and pretend to be Freyja at the wedding. The two of them go to meet Thrym, and they have a banquet. As soon as Thor gets a sight of his hammer, which is brought out at the end of the feast as a wedding present, Thor grabs it and kills all the giants. The end. &#xD;&#xA;[Here's a link where you can read the myth for yourself][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://norse-mythology.org/tales/thor-the-transvestite/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23499" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7728" RevisionGUID="9c37c768-43eb-4e3f-bb7a-0394de77af0f" CreationDate="2020-11-08T18:54:32.693" UserId="7013" Text="I am looking for any mythological stories of a mother losing her young daughter and the grief that takes place as a consequence of such. I am writing a play where a similar thing occurs and would like to make an allusion to classical mythology. (the story could be from anything classical, even folklore is fine, although stories which are too obscure might defeat the purpose of making an allusion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any insight would be humbly and greatly appreciated." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23500" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7728" RevisionGUID="9c37c768-43eb-4e3f-bb7a-0394de77af0f" CreationDate="2020-11-08T18:54:32.693" UserId="7013" Text="stories of a mother losing her daughter?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23501" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7728" RevisionGUID="9c37c768-43eb-4e3f-bb7a-0394de77af0f" CreationDate="2020-11-08T18:54:32.693" UserId="7013" Text="|greek|folklore|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23502" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7729" RevisionGUID="ae990cf0-767d-433f-a5ac-923f609cc3e4" CreationDate="2020-11-09T10:45:25.450" UserId="188" Text="Mother (Demeter / Ceres) losing Daughter (Persephone / Proserpina) to Son-in-law (Hades / Pluto)?&#xA;&#xA;And causing Winter / Summer seasons because of it in the end?&#xA;&#xA;...&#xA;&#xA;I feel like this should close due to lack of research, sorry. This is one of the common stories of mythology collections, I think?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23503" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7730" RevisionGUID="9bf07b01-22f1-4081-a9af-248d954800ac" CreationDate="2020-11-09T10:48:22.903" UserId="5229" Text="Some famous stories:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* [Demeter and Persephone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persephone), as already mentioned by [Malady](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/7729/5229)&#xD;&#xA;* [Clytaemnestra and Iphigenia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iphigenia) (Euripides' [*Iphigenia in Aulis*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iphigenia_in_Aulis))&#xD;&#xA;* [Hecuba and Polyxena](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyxena) (Euripides' [*Hecuba*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecuba_(play)))" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23504" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4894" RevisionGUID="c02b0749-2251-4565-b4d6-80731298ce85" CreationDate="2020-11-09T18:18:15.750" UserDisplayName="user4660" Comment="Removed quotation" Text="I did some more research and found an article that references where Gaiman pulled some of the information from. As mentioned in [another answer][1], Chernobog is the god of darkness, misery, etc. in Slavic myth and that there is no specific reference to a hammer. The article from [Radio Times][2] expands on this further:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;There is no particular mythic connection between Czernobog and his sledgehammer, though it’s not a huge leap of imagination to see how bloody murder fits with his character.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;But adding in the sledgehammer allows Gaiman to construct an intriguing backstory about worshippers of Czernobog. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Towards the end of the novel, Shadow and Mr Nancy and Czernobog stop at a clearing near Cherryvale in Kansas. The site is sacred for the old Slavic god, who draws sustenance and power from the memory of past worship. Here, in the clearing, the “Benders” made human sacrifices using a hammer, his weapon of choice.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;This is a reference to a 19th century family of serial killers known as the Bloody Benders, who lived on that spot and murdered visitors for the fun of it – seating them above a trap door, stepping out from behind a curtain with a sledgehammer and bludgeoning them to death before dropping them into a pit.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Benders were likely German or Dutch rather than Slavic worshippers of Czernobog, but that doesn’t stop him gaining power from the sacrifice. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So while the hammer isn't present in the original Slavic myths there is a tangential link pulled through by the author to 19th Century grisly murders.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/4792/4660&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2017-05-30/american-gods-mythology-guide-who-is-bloodthirsty-slavic-deity-czernobog/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23505" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4894" RevisionGUID="c02b0749-2251-4565-b4d6-80731298ce85" CreationDate="2020-11-09T18:18:15.750" Comment="Proposed by 4660 approved by 5726, 4985 edit id of 1847" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23506" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7731" RevisionGUID="8450487a-dc7e-47aa-a464-0aa14b4dcfe1" CreationDate="2020-11-11T11:18:56.447" UserId="5511" Text="Both the concepts of angels and demons were &quot;borrowed&quot; by Judaism and Christianity from other mythologies, and then turned into an &quot;angels good, demons bad&quot; story. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have already detailed [the original texts from which the Christian concept of of angels was derived][1] in another question, so I will not repeat it here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Especially in Christianity, the demons become the cause of evil. However, *daemon* is the Latin word for the Ancient Greek word *daimon* (δαίμων: &quot;god&quot;, &quot;godlike&quot;, &quot;power&quot;, &quot;fate&quot;). In Plato's *Symposium*, daemons are benevolent or benign nature spirits, beings of the same nature as both mortals and deities, similar to ghosts, chthonic heroes, spirit guides, forces of nature, or the deities themselves. In Hesiod's *Theogony*, the ills released by Pandora are deadly deities, *keres*, not *daimones*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So from Ancient Greek mythology stems the concept that demons could be &quot;half-demon&quot;, but not malicious. It's in early Christian writings this association with evil is first made. In the Old Testament, evil spirits appear in the book of Judges and in Kings by Hebrew names. But in Judaism, it is understood that God is the creator of all evil:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; יֹוצֵ֥ר  אֹור֙  וּבֹורֵ֣א  חֹ֔שֶׁךְ  עֹשֶׂ֥ה  שָׁלֹ֖ום  וּבֹ֣ורֵא  רָ֑ע  אֲנִ֥י  יְהוָ֖ה  עֹשֶׂ֥ה  כָל־  אֵֽלֶּה׃  ס &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I the LORD do all these [things]. - Isaiah 45:7&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The word רָ֑ע *rā‘* appears more than 600 times in the OT and always translates to &quot;evil&quot;, &quot;hurting&quot;, &quot;bad&quot;, &quot;wicked&quot;. Yet in modern Christian translations, this word is &quot;toned down&quot; to &quot;disaster&quot; or &quot;calamity&quot;, because we associate those with natural events, and because God being the creator of evil doesn't sit well with the Christian image of its deity. You see this in even the earliest Christian writings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Septuagint, made for the Greek-speaking Jews of Alexandria, the Greek *ángelos* (ἄγγελος &quot;messenger&quot;) translates the Hebrew word *mal'ak*, while *daimónion* (δαιμόνιον; pl. daimónia (δαιμόνια)), which carries the meaning of a natural spirit that is less than divine (see supernatural), translates the Hebrew word *shedim* as well as the word *se'irim* in some verses and words for idols (foreign deities), and describes the being Asmodeus in the Book of Tobit. The use of *daimōn* in the New Testament's original Greek text caused the Greek word to be applied to the Judeo-Christian concept of an evil spirit by the early second century AD. This, the story of the fall of Lucifer, and the Greek concept of Hades (used to translate the Hebrew word *Sheol*) become front and center in the mythology of the origin of evil in Christianity. All these stories and concepts are borrowed from older stories and stripped of their original meaning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Among critical scholars, the Lucifer mentioned in Isaiah and Daniel is *not* considered the same as Satan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Isaiah chapters 13-23 describes a series of “burdens” on various nations, e.g. Babylon, Tyre, Egypt. Then specifically in 14:4:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; That thou hast taken up this simile Concerning the king of Babylon, and said, How hath the exactor ceased&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The prophecy is therefore about the human king of Babylon, who is described as “Lucifer”, and verse 16 describes his fall:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thy beholders look to thee, to thee they attend, Is this the man causing the earth to tremble, Shaking kingdoms?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So this clearly refers to a king like any other, verses 9-10 affirm this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sheol beneath hath been troubled at thee, To meet thy coming in, It is waking up for thee Rephaim, All chiefs ones of earth, It hath raised up from their thrones All kings of nations. All of them answer and say unto thee, Even thou hast become weak like us! Unto us thou hast become like!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The later association with the devil comes from the opening words of verse 9: *[sheol][2]*  in Judaism is originally the place where all dead go. In later eras, it became the destination for the wicked and a place of punishment.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As to your specific question about hubris, we first need to identify to which king Isaiah is referring.  “Lucifer” means “the morning star”, which is the brightest of the stars. In the parable, this star proudly decides to “ascend into heaven (which by the way contradicts the later association with Satan, who was cast *out* of heaven). This is described in verse 13:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And thou saidst in thy heart: the heavens I go up, Above stars of God I raise my throne, And I sit in the mount of meeting in the sides of the north.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Philologists associate this with Nebuchadnezzar, based on for example Daniel 4:22. Nebuchadnezzar proudly surveyed the great kingdom he had built up, thinking that he had conquered other nations in his own strength, rather than recognizing that the Abrahamic deity had bestowed this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thou it is, O king, for thou hast become great and mighty, and thy greatness hath become great, and hath reached to the heavens, and thy dominion to the end of the earth;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The association with the casting out of the devil comes from Jehova's punishment as described in Daniel 4:33, which references the king by name:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 'In that hour the thing hath been fulfilled on Nebuchadnezzar, and from men he is driven, and the herb as oxen he eateth, and by the dew of the heavens his body is wet, till that his hair as eagles' hath become great, and his nails as birds.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So Nebuchadnezzar's hubris is the cause for his downfall in the OT. The entire story is clearly about a king, not a fallen angel. The consensus among critical scholars is that the book of Daniel is historical fiction, later to be associated with the Christian concepts of Hell (which differ greatly from how the Greeks understood Hades), to personify evil in contrast to the &quot;inconvenient&quot; Isaiah 45:7 verse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/6134/what-would-st-michael-be-considered-far-as-title-rank/6135#6135&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23507" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7732" RevisionGUID="7a0df422-a756-4506-bf96-78269cb23969" CreationDate="2020-11-12T06:14:49.847" UserId="5604" Text="Their husbands ate the kids and you think Gaia and Rhea are evil?  Not too chauvinistic.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To preneolithic Greeks Gaia and Rhea represented the thin line between civilization and barbarism.  In the patriarchal societies of the neolithic they did get tramp stamped pretty badly and for that cycle I refer to the first answer here.  But at least in the Theogony, they weren't demons, they were the primal females. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, Gaia, like any mother in law, was into everbody's business and Rhea was notoriously vain about her beauty.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23513" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="7669" RevisionGUID="28d55729-f6ca-4427-93b5-95551c29d3d4" CreationDate="2020-11-16T18:03:50.390" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23514" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7734" RevisionGUID="79dc9864-0be9-4c2f-ab3f-0d3c75f2e310" CreationDate="2020-11-17T16:17:52.167" UserId="7416" Text="According to Homeros' Iliad, Achilles is the most handsome young man in the Greek camp. And he has shiny (reddish) blond hair.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Homer, Iliad. 2.673–674&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“Nireus who was the most beautiful man who came to Troy&#xD;&#xA;Of the rest of the Danaans, after Peleus’ blameless son.&#xD;&#xA;But he was weak and a small army followed him.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Νιρεύς, ὃς κάλλιστος ἀνὴρ ὑπὸ ῎Ιλιον ἦλθε&#xD;&#xA;τῶν ἄλλων Δαναῶν μετ’ ἀμύμονα Πηλεΐωνα·&#xD;&#xA;ἀλλ’ ἀλαπαδνὸς ἔην, παῦρος δέ οἱ εἵπετο λαός." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23515" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7735" RevisionGUID="7869c2c1-a8bd-4a34-b9f6-a41f9274c275" CreationDate="2020-11-17T18:35:52.310" UserId="814" Text="The type of story I'm curious about is one where a God or Goddess is so enamoured with the human experience, that they willingly give up their divinity to mingle among humanity and live+die as they do. (Not out of wanting to save humanity, but of a desire to participate in it, so Jesus does not count.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any mythology or religion is fine, and I'm willing to hear about other stories that don't *exactly* fit this bill." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23516" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7735" RevisionGUID="7869c2c1-a8bd-4a34-b9f6-a41f9274c275" CreationDate="2020-11-17T18:35:52.310" UserId="814" Text="Are there any myths of Gods or Goddesses willingly giving up their divinity permenantly?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23517" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7735" RevisionGUID="7869c2c1-a8bd-4a34-b9f6-a41f9274c275" CreationDate="2020-11-17T18:35:52.310" UserId="814" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23518" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="7735" RevisionGUID="9d6cdd39-d240-4f4a-a0e9-8f85439f6497" CreationDate="2020-11-17T18:43:00.410" UserId="814" Comment="made the title flow better" Text="Are there any myths of Gods or Goddesses giving up their divinity permenantly of their own free will?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23519" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7736" RevisionGUID="0e99e7bc-58cd-420b-9d96-2c834730e2e0" CreationDate="2020-11-17T18:44:25.120" UserId="6739" Text="I have found that the persian word for werewolf is (گرگینه) which the closest english transliteration I can find is &quot;grgynh&quot;. Does anyone know of better transliteration, that lends itself to being pronounced more easily? Or an older term for werewolf from this region, like Avestian? I have found varka as Avestian for wolf." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23520" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7736" RevisionGUID="0e99e7bc-58cd-420b-9d96-2c834730e2e0" CreationDate="2020-11-17T18:44:25.120" UserId="6739" Text="Persian word for werewolf?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23521" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7736" RevisionGUID="0e99e7bc-58cd-420b-9d96-2c834730e2e0" CreationDate="2020-11-17T18:44:25.120" UserId="6739" Text="|persian|werewolves|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23522" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="7735" RevisionGUID="45d114ce-a510-4f8d-8c06-83d684d6d994" CreationDate="2020-11-17T19:27:25.407" UserId="814" Comment="edited title" Text="Are there any myths of Gods or Goddesses giving up their divinity permanently of their own free will?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23523" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7737" RevisionGUID="0571aeea-e88d-44b0-aadf-c2a81035113b" CreationDate="2020-11-17T21:40:52.130" UserId="7417" Text="Abraham came from Sumer. His birth place was &quot;Ur of the Chaldees&quot;, namely UR KAŠDIM (אוּר כַּשְׂדִּים). This is explicitly stated in Genesis 11:28:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;And died Haran before the face of Terah his father in the land of his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; birth in **UR OF THE CHALDEANS.**&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; הָרָ֔ן עַל־ פְּנֵ֖י תֶּ֣רַח אָבִ֑יו בְּאֶ֥רֶץ מוֹלַדְתּ֖וֹ בְּא֥וּר כַּשְׂדִּֽים׃&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hā-rān,	‘al-pə-nê te-raḥ ’ā-ḇîw bə-’e-reṣ mō-w-laḏ-tōw bə-**’ŪR KAŚ-DÎM.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Haran was Abraham's brother and Terah their father. So there will absolutely be linguistic and esoteric interconnections with Hebrew, Akkadian, Assyrian. You don't share a border and common history without retaining some linguistic elements.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Language Isolate&quot; just means they (Sumerologists) haven't yet figured out how Sumerian relates to the surrounding languages." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23524" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6448" RevisionGUID="752a3670-779f-4901-bd6a-f916577b85e0" CreationDate="2020-11-18T08:59:16.280" UserId="5726" Comment="spacing and capital letters" Text="Beside the fact that there is no such thing as an Annunaki until coined by Sitchin who had no idea what he was talking about. The word Annunaki can't even be found in the original text. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Annunaki= Anakim = Sons of Anak in the Old Testament&#xD;&#xA;The correlation is found in the timeline: the fact that Hebrews and Sumerians Co-existed. The Old Testament is documenting the times just like &#xD;&#xA;the epic of Gilgamesh, the legend of Atrahasis, the book of Jasher, the book of Job, other extra Biblical texts, the 7 tablets of creation and the books of Enoch.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All coming from the same time period. 3000-1800 B.C. (pre flood times-1800 B.C.E.). Note the epic of Gilgamesh refers to a time when Noah was 366 years old and During Egypt's Second Dynasty.(234 years before the flood).&#xD;&#xA;They all (Sumerian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Hebrew, Egyptian, Akkadian, etc) coexisted in trade, war, god worship, etc.&#xD;&#xA;Just look at the timeline.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And it is easy to see that they are all referring to the same infamous nephilim.&#xD;&#xA;Finally the vowels never determined the meaning of a word or a name but rather the consonants. Anunnaki= Anak. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23525" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7736" RevisionGUID="bbf943fc-69a6-4ee2-b865-c81fef98a1ba" CreationDate="2020-11-18T09:03:24.593" UserId="5726" Comment="minor edits concerning question format and capital letters" Text="I have found that the Persian word for werewolf is (گرگینه) which the closest English transliteration I can find is &quot;grgynh&quot;. Does anyone know of better transliteration, that lends itself to being pronounced more easily? Or an older term for werewolf from this region, like Avestian? I have found varka as Avestian for wolf." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23526" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="7736" RevisionGUID="bbf943fc-69a6-4ee2-b865-c81fef98a1ba" CreationDate="2020-11-18T09:03:24.593" UserId="5726" Comment="minor edits concerning question format and capital letters" Text="English transliteration of the Persian word for werewolf?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23527" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="7736" RevisionGUID="bbf943fc-69a6-4ee2-b865-c81fef98a1ba" CreationDate="2020-11-18T09:03:24.593" UserId="5726" Comment="minor edits concerning question format and capital letters" Text="|translation|persian|werewolves|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23528" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7738" RevisionGUID="77d17bc3-ec49-422d-bfb9-193f24eea986" CreationDate="2020-11-18T18:00:13.430" UserId="6739" Text="This may seem odd, but I'm answering my own question. The transliteration answer for  (گرگینه)  is gorgine. I found the answer here: https://www.wordsense.eu/werewolf/ and the audio pronunciation here:&#xD;&#xA;https://www.languagedrops.com/word/en/english/persian/translate/werewolf/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23529" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7739" RevisionGUID="fae8dafe-db29-40e7-b118-15dbb3bc6d3f" CreationDate="2020-11-19T09:43:11.227" UserId="5511" Text="In recent history/mythology, there is the [人間宣言 *Ningen-sengen*][1], where the Japanese Emperor Hiro-Hito, who according to Shinto was a living god until the end of WW2. In this proclamation, the Emperor gave up his divine ancestry claims.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Christianity, there are stories unsupported by the mainstream doctrines of angels who give up their divine state to become and experience humanity. They are generally categorized as fallen angels, although in mainstream Christianity this term means angels who chose to follow Lucifer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanity_Declaration" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23530" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7740" RevisionGUID="3501617a-846a-4315-93ba-f4827426fb49" CreationDate="2020-11-21T12:34:33.380" UserId="7425" Text="In all of Greek mythology, GAIA played an important role.&#xD;&#xA;Giving birth to the titans and giants and so on. But all in all, why most of the time she is in a deep slumber in the creation of mythology?  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23531" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7740" RevisionGUID="3501617a-846a-4315-93ba-f4827426fb49" CreationDate="2020-11-21T12:34:33.380" UserId="7425" Text="Greek mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23532" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7740" RevisionGUID="3501617a-846a-4315-93ba-f4827426fb49" CreationDate="2020-11-21T12:34:33.380" UserId="7425" Text="|greek|titans|giants|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23534" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7742" RevisionGUID="2ee133c9-7177-4fbd-ae4c-f8590f71a8f0" CreationDate="2020-11-22T09:04:22.843" UserId="7427" Text="Well as far as I can see through many scripture in the old testament, the mention of the ASHERA tree is documented and is the consort of YHWH one the seventy sons of El. Basically the symbol of ASHERA was a tree or a cutting or formation of a pole or Tatum totum totim pole or tree of life and or knowledge or any wooden form of worship and sacrifices were made unto it. So when you put up your X mas tree you would have no understaning of its origen or myth by many different cultures which have been altered hence the word Alter. To change message and meaningful ness through time. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23535" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7743" RevisionGUID="93b441e6-97e2-418f-b13a-aa83bbc59a92" CreationDate="2020-11-22T09:43:28.437" UserId="5511" Text="The garden of eden part of Genesis myth is possibly derived from the Asherah and other Mesopotamian myths. Not the Christmas tree, which has its origin in other pagan rituals. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [Kuntillet 'Arjud and Khirbet el-Kom inscriptions][1], Asherah is named with Yahweh -- probably as his consort. In Canaanite myth, Asherah (Ug. *Athirat*) was the consort of El, the creator god, and she begat the seventy lesser gods, the sons of El. Asherah became Yahweh's consort through an identification of El with Yahweh (seen throughout the OT). In Canaanite texts, Asherah is called the &quot;Mother of All&quot; and one of her titles was *qnyt 'ilm* &quot;Creator of the Gods&quot;. It is interesting that *qnh* is an unusual word in Hebrew for &quot;create&quot; as it usually means &quot;acquire&quot; (El, in contrast, was called *bny bnwt* &quot;Creator of Created Things&quot; in the Ugaritic texts). The notion of Eve as a creator goddess also appears in muted form in Genesis 3:20, 4:1 where Eve is called &quot;the mother of all living&quot; and Eve says after the birth of Cain, &quot;I have created (*qnh*) a man with the help of Yahweh,&quot; employing the same verb as applied to Asherah in the Ugaritic texts. The latter quote is also very similar to a statement regarding the Akkadian creator goddess *Aruru* (= Sumerian *Ninhursag*): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aruru zi-ir a-mi-lu-ti it-ti-shu ib-ta-nu &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Aruru, with the help of [Marduk], created the seed of mankind&quot; (KIB, vi. I, 40). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another clue that Eve's identity originally was not as it is given in the story can be found in the name: Hebrew *chwwh*, being related to Aramaic *chwyh* and Phoenician *chwt* &quot;snake&quot;. *Chawat* appears in a Phoenician inscription as one of the names of Elat &quot;Goddess&quot;, that is, Asherah.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is in Proverbs where we meet Asherah as Wisdom personified. She appears as a creator goddess in Proverbs 8:22-31 and the following chapter describes a banquet that Wisdom hosts in her palace (Proverbs 9:1-6). In the Ugaritic texts, we read similarly of Asherah and her consort El hosting banquets in their mountain palace (cf. KTU 1.1 IV 26-35). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Proverbs 3:13-18 contains some paronomasia between the name Asherah ('*ashrh*) and the word &quot;happy&quot; ('*ashre*), which is paired with the &quot;tree of life&quot; in a chiasm:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Happy ('*ashre*) is the one who finds wisdom .... She is a tree of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; life ('*ts chyym*) to those who lay hold of her; those who hold her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fast are made happy (*m'sshr*).&quot; (Proverbs 3:13, 18; cf. 11:30; 15:4)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The expression is nearly identical to &quot;the tree of life&quot; ('*ts h-chyym*) of Genesis 2:9, which refers to a specific mythological tree while the &quot;tree of life&quot; in Proverbs refers to a more abstract Wisdom, but the verse also plays on the name Asherah. It is interesting that Wisdom is identified with the &quot;tree of life&quot; when a &quot;tree of knowledge of good and evil&quot; (e.g. &quot;wisdom&quot;) is distinguished from the Tree of Life in the Eden narrative. Many scholars since the time of Wellhausen have suggested that this second tree originated as a doublet of the first.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khirbet_el-Qom" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23536" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7744" RevisionGUID="51a02a43-416f-4694-bde6-0b9ec0daa8f4" CreationDate="2020-11-22T09:45:32.543" UserId="7428" Text="Are there any creatures that eat a human's life force? Have tried googling but am not sure which creatures do.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23537" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7744" RevisionGUID="51a02a43-416f-4694-bde6-0b9ec0daa8f4" CreationDate="2020-11-22T09:45:32.543" UserId="7428" Text="What creatures eat a humans life force?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23538" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7744" RevisionGUID="51a02a43-416f-4694-bde6-0b9ec0daa8f4" CreationDate="2020-11-22T09:45:32.543" UserId="7428" Text="|mythical-creatures|folklore|monsters|demons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23539" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7745" RevisionGUID="a263cf73-2a32-4b1e-8372-fbb13ff63bcc" CreationDate="2020-11-22T09:52:54.110" UserId="7428" Text="Clytaemnestra and Iphigenia is one that I know of." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23540" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7744" RevisionGUID="5c911027-9c02-4439-9c8c-8f05d5e488da" CreationDate="2020-11-22T09:54:13.800" UserId="7428" Comment="added 10 characters in body" Text="Are there any creatures that eat, or drain a human's life force? Have tried googling but am not sure which creatures do.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23541" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7746" RevisionGUID="429b262e-4e64-4bc8-a8d4-c7bbdcf91d03" CreationDate="2020-11-22T10:06:57.807" UserId="5511" Text="&quot;Life force&quot; is a rather vague criterium. Many mythologies do not have this concept. The only ones I'm aware of outside of Abrahamic mythology are Eastern mythologies:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Prana][1] in Hinduism&#xD;&#xA; - [Qi][2] in East-Asian Medicine, Martial Arts and Daoism&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are no myths about creatures consuming Prana or Qi.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Judaism, Christianity &amp; Islam: [Incubi &amp; Succubi][6]**&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][7]][7]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Said to eat the life force of those they seduce.&#xD;&#xA;In some myth variations, incubi &amp; succubi are said to eat the souls of those they seduce.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you extend the scope to include various concepts of &quot;soul&quot;, there are a few other ones:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ancient Egypt: [Ammit the devourer][3]**&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Africa: [Soul Eater][5]**&#xD;&#xA;A soul eater is a folklore figure in the traditional belief systems of some African peoples, notably the Hausa people of Nigeria and Niger.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prana&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammit&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/36diM.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_eater_(folklore)&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incubus&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ccjmi.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23542" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7747" RevisionGUID="c7f8beca-62d0-480b-a4bc-08e42bbfc63a" CreationDate="2020-11-22T13:41:03.980" UserId="7430" Text="Classical Greek mythology is replete with, frankly, rape. From outright physically overpowering their victim to 'pursuing' them until they 'give in', gods regularly force themselves on any mortal (or occasionally fellow god) who catches their eye.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In all of known Greek myth, is there any instance where a mortal (or god) does not reciprocate a god's interest, and the god respects that refusal (and does not go on to punish them for it)?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23543" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7747" RevisionGUID="c7f8beca-62d0-480b-a4bc-08e42bbfc63a" CreationDate="2020-11-22T13:41:03.980" UserId="7430" Text="Does any Greek god ever respect a mortal not consenting to sex?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23544" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7747" RevisionGUID="c7f8beca-62d0-480b-a4bc-08e42bbfc63a" CreationDate="2020-11-22T13:41:03.980" UserId="7430" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23546" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7749" RevisionGUID="dd9a18d4-f833-42eb-a957-fef65d73ac31" CreationDate="2020-11-23T03:33:00.080" UserId="6739" Text="The greek Drákaines (Δράκαινες) is a race or group of serpent-like creatures with human features, generally female. Basically what the Medusa from the original 80's Clash of the Titans, minus the snakes for hair. The singular name is drakaina (Δρακαινα), and the latin name is dracaena. Does anyone know the name of any other mythological creatures, from any other regions, such as ancient Egypt, Persia, China, or Japan, with the same description?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23547" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7749" RevisionGUID="dd9a18d4-f833-42eb-a957-fef65d73ac31" CreationDate="2020-11-23T03:33:00.080" UserId="6739" Text="Other names for Drákaines?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23548" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7749" RevisionGUID="dd9a18d4-f833-42eb-a957-fef65d73ac31" CreationDate="2020-11-23T03:33:00.080" UserId="6739" Text="|greek|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23549" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7750" RevisionGUID="5e200dd6-25c6-4bcf-b6fb-ef1bb2610718" CreationDate="2020-11-23T06:45:39.637" UserId="2682" Text="Yes, there are a few instances of this. (Incidentally all the myths that I can think of, as the answer to this Question, feature the god Apollo.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Marpessa**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps the best example involving a mortal has to do with the dramatic tale of Marpessa's betrothal to Idas. Marpessa was the daughter of the Aetolian prince Evenus, who in turn was a son of Ares. As seems to be typical of a number of Ares' sons, Evenus wished to keep his daughter unwed. According to certain *Iliad* scholia, Evenus would compel any man wishing to marry Marpessa to engage him in a chariot-race. If the suitor won, he could marry the maiden, but if he lost, Evenus would cut off his head and nail it to the wall of his house. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although Idas was known to be a son of the Messenian prince Aphareus, like certain other famous heroes, it was claimed that Poseidon was his real father, and this seemed to be proven by the fact that he was gifted a winged chariot by the sea-god. Idas used this chariot to abduct Marpessa. Evenus went after them in his own chariot but failed to overtake them. Upon reaching a river named the Lycormas, he gave up, slaughtered his horses and threw himself into the river, which from then on was known as the Evenus after him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;No sooner had Idas arrived home in Messenia with Marpessa than he was accosted by his own cousin Apollo, who intended to now snatch the abducted young princess from Idas. A fight ensued between the god and his mortal cousin in which, Homer's *Iliad* seems to imply, Idas shot arrows at Apollo and, according to Pausanias, Apollo actually managed to take off with the young woman. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For some unstated reason Zeus himself put a stop to the contest and gave Marpessa the choice between her two abductors. In the end, Apollodorus' *Library* tells us, Marpessa, &quot;because she feared that Apollo might desert her in her old age, chose&quot; to marry Idas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Years later Marpessa did die a tragic death, but it had nothing to do with Apollo. Her husband Idas was slain in a squabble with yet another cousin of his, whereupon the widow, like her father before her, took her own life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sinope**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Diodorus Siculus' *Library of History*, the Naiad (river-nymph) Sinope, one of the many daughters of the Asopus River, was kidnapped by Apollo and taken to the shores of the Black Sea, where she gave her name to the city of Sinope (now Sinop in Turkey). There she bore him a son named Syrus, who became the first king of Syria.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The (Greek) *Argonautica* of Apollonius Rhodius and the (Latin) *Argonautica* of Valerius Flaccus, however, each tell an alternate version of the Naiad's story in which Zeus granted to her the land upon which the city of Sinope was built, because he was so infatuated with her. According to Apollonius, Zeus &quot;had solemnly sworn to fulfil her dearest wish, whatever that might be; and she very cleverly had said, ‘I wish to remain a virgin.’ By the same ruse the outwitted Apollon&quot; when he made advances upon her. Sinope's own uncle, the river Halys, was yet another would-be lover whose amorous attempts towards her went the same way. &quot;Men fared no better than the gods; this woman never was possessed by any lover.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hestia**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In primordial times, the goddess Hestia was wooed by her own brother Poseidon and her nephew Apollo, both of whom expressed their desire to marry her, but she swore upon Zeus's head that she would remain a virgin forever. Therefore, according to the *Homeric Hymn to Aphrodite*, Zeus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gave her a high honour instead of marriage, and she has her place in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the midst of the house and has the richest portion. In all the temples&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the gods she has a share of honour, and among all mortal men she is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; chief of the goddesses.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Together with Athena and Artemis, Hestia was one of the three goddesses over whom Aphrodite exercised no power, because they had sworn similar oaths of virginity in Zeus's name, and he had granted them the freedom to maintain this status in perpetuity.     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Kore**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The final example does not end on a very positive note for the character in question. Before Persephone became Queen of the Underworld, she was a teenage goddess known simply, and mystically, as Kore, the &quot;Maiden.&quot; According to Nonnus' *Dionysiaca*, Hermes, Apollo, Ares and Hephaestus all approached her mother Demeter with bridal gifts along with the request to marry Kore. This state of affairs terrified Demeter, who rejected all the suitors and hid Kore in an underground cave. The young goddess's own father Zeus, however, was more besotted with her than any of these younger gods, and he stole into the cave in the form a speckled dragon, where he had his way with the unfortunate Kore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the union was born Zagreus, a shape-shifting god in whose favour Zeus planned to abdicate, but who Hera assassinated. He was later reincarnated as the wine-god Dionysus centuries later, by which point Kore had been abducted by her uncle Hades, who had married her and made her his queen in the land of the dead. Cold comfort at this stage, but there indeed were no adverse reactions against Kore by the four gods who had first sought and failed to marry her.    " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23550" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7750" RevisionGUID="771c0c5c-23ba-4743-a7f8-9f8cd41e116a" CreationDate="2020-11-23T14:09:53.030" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; improved formatting" Text="Yes, there are a few instances of this. (Incidentally all the myths that I can think of, as the answer to this Question, feature the god Apollo.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Marpessa**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps the best example involving a mortal has to do with the dramatic tale of Marpessa's betrothal to Idas. Marpessa was the daughter of the Aetolian prince Evenus, who in turn was a son of Ares. As seems to be typical of a number of Ares' sons, Evenus wished to keep his daughter unwed. According to certain *Iliad* scholia, Evenus would compel any man wishing to marry Marpessa to engage him in a chariot-race. If the suitor won, he could marry the maiden, but if he lost, Evenus would cut off his head and nail it to the wall of his house. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although Idas was known to be a son of the Messenian prince Aphareus, like certain other famous heroes, it was claimed that Poseidon was his real father, and this seemed to be proven by the fact that he was gifted a winged chariot by the sea-god. Idas used this chariot to abduct Marpessa. Evenus went after them in his own chariot but failed to overtake them. Upon reaching a river named the Lycormas, he gave up, slaughtered his horses and threw himself into the river, which from then on was known as the Evenus after him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;No sooner had Idas arrived home in Messenia with Marpessa than he was accosted by his own cousin Apollo, who intended to now snatch the abducted young princess from Idas. A fight ensued between the god and his mortal cousin in which, Homer's *Iliad* seems to imply, Idas shot arrows at Apollo and, according to Pausanias, Apollo actually managed to take off with the young woman. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For some unstated reason Zeus himself put a stop to the contest and gave Marpessa the choice between her two abductors. In the end, Apollodorus' *Library* tells us, Marpessa, &quot;because she feared that Apollo might desert her in her old age, chose&quot; to marry Idas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Years later Marpessa did die a tragic death, but it had nothing to do with Apollo. Her husband Idas was slain in a squabble with yet another cousin of his, whereupon the widow, like her father before her, took her own life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sinope**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Diodorus Siculus' *Library of History*, the Naiad (river-nymph) Sinope, one of the many daughters of the Asopus River, was kidnapped by Apollo and taken to the shores of the Black Sea, where she gave her name to the city of Sinope (now Sinop in Turkey). There she bore him a son named Syrus, who became the first king of Syria.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The (Greek) *Argonautica* of Apollonius Rhodius and the (Latin) *Argonautica* of Valerius Flaccus, however, each tell an alternate version of the Naiad's story in which Zeus granted to her the land upon which the city of Sinope was built, because he was so infatuated with her. According to Apollonius, Zeus &quot;had solemnly sworn to fulfil her dearest wish, whatever that might be; and she very cleverly had said, ‘I wish to remain a virgin.’ By the same ruse she outwitted Apollo&quot; when he made advances upon her. Sinope's own uncle, the river Halys, was yet another would-be lover whose amorous attempts towards her went the same way. &quot;Men fared no better than the gods; this woman never was possessed by any lover.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hestia**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In primordial times, the goddess Hestia was wooed by her own brother Poseidon and her nephew Apollo, both of whom expressed their desire to marry her, but she swore upon Zeus's head that she would remain a virgin forever. Therefore, according to the Homeric Hymn to Aphrodite, Zeus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gave her a high honour instead of marriage, and she has her place in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the midst of the house and has the richest portion. In all the temples&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the gods she has a share of honour, and among all mortal men she is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; chief of the goddesses.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Together with Athena and Artemis, Hestia was one of the three goddesses over whom Aphrodite exercised no power, because they had sworn similar oaths of virginity in Zeus's name, and he had granted them the freedom to maintain this status in perpetuity.     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Kore**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The final example does not end on a very positive note for the character in question. Before Persephone became Queen of the Underworld, she was a teenage goddess known simply, and mystically, as Kore, the &quot;Maiden.&quot; According to Nonnus' *Dionysiaca*, Hermes, Apollo, Ares and Hephaestus all approached her mother Demeter with bridal gifts along with the request to marry Kore. This state of affairs terrified Demeter, who rejected all the suitors and hid Kore in an underground cave. The young goddess's own father Zeus, however, was more besotted with her than any of these younger gods, and he stole into the cave in the form a speckled dragon, where he had his way with the unfortunate Kore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the union was born Zagreus, a shape-shifting god in whose favour Zeus planned to abdicate, but who Hera assassinated. Centuries later he was reincarnated as the wine-god Dionysus, by which point Kore had been abducted by her uncle Hades, who had married her and made her his queen in the land of the dead. Cold comfort at this stage, but there indeed were no adverse reactions against Kore by the four gods who had first sought and failed to marry her.    " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23551" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="7749" RevisionGUID="5c55fa7a-a560-42f7-80a1-baeab1239828" CreationDate="2020-11-23T17:28:42.330" UserId="6739" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23552" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7751" RevisionGUID="9788e618-96bc-4d8c-8908-c70b5ab3f9cc" CreationDate="2020-11-24T03:56:42.063" UserId="7436" Text="I’m trying to create a character based on a powerful and immortal god but I kind of want a mouse to represent that as it would fit into my story on how the character is portrayed, I was thinking of just doing Alice in wonderland but she’s very timid and harmless so she isn’t exactly the character in the book. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23553" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7751" RevisionGUID="9788e618-96bc-4d8c-8908-c70b5ab3f9cc" CreationDate="2020-11-24T03:56:42.063" UserId="7436" Text="Mythology's or folktales regarding dormouse/mouse?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23554" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7751" RevisionGUID="9788e618-96bc-4d8c-8908-c70b5ab3f9cc" CreationDate="2020-11-24T03:56:42.063" UserId="7436" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23555" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7752" RevisionGUID="d5cccc39-58ec-4a60-a2a1-81cd5021afd0" CreationDate="2020-11-24T07:33:41.040" UserId="5511" Text="δράκαινες is simply the Nominative plural form of [δράκαινα][1] (*drákaina*), which is composed of δράκων (*drákōn*, “dragon”) +‎ -αινᾰ (-aina). From Byzantine Greek δράκαινα (*drákaina*), feminine form of δράκων (*drákōn*), i.e. a female dragon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Greek mythology, a *drakaina* is a female serpent or dragon, sometimes with humanlike features. It is not recorded to be a different race from *drákōn*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Python*, slain by Apollo, and the earliest representations of *Delphyne* are shown as simply gigantic serpents, similar to other Greek dragons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B4%CF%81%CE%AC%CE%BA%CE%B1%CE%B9%CE%BD%CE%B1#Greek&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/slpG2.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23556" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7753" RevisionGUID="f5d53166-e278-4a36-b97f-6f5da06c13ca" CreationDate="2020-11-24T08:24:55.543" UserId="7437" Text="I've recently become interested in Greek mythology and I thought what better place to start than [a good 'ol family tree][1]. Whilst researching Tartarus I came across, seemingly, two areas of thought. One being that Tartarus is part of the Underworld and one being that Tartarus is a separate place entirely being ***&quot;as far beneath Hades as heaven is above earth.&quot;***. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anyway, this piqued my interest in the Underworld so I started doing a bit of reading. There seems to be some views that the Underworld was where souls went after death and that it had various places a soul might go depending on how awesome/unawesome that person was in life. They might end up in Tartarus, Elysium, the Asphodel Meadows, etc. Other views again suggest that these places were all separate from the underworld and equate the underworld to what I guess some might consider as hell.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a definitive answer here and I'm just getting confused somewhere? If not, where have these two ideas of the Underworld come from?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also (as a bonus), any great mythology resources would be really appreciated!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_tree_of_the_Greek_gods" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23557" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7753" RevisionGUID="f5d53166-e278-4a36-b97f-6f5da06c13ca" CreationDate="2020-11-24T08:24:55.543" UserId="7437" Text="What places were actually in the underworld?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23558" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7753" RevisionGUID="f5d53166-e278-4a36-b97f-6f5da06c13ca" CreationDate="2020-11-24T08:24:55.543" UserId="7437" Text="|greek|underworld|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23559" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7740" RevisionGUID="a8483502-a432-4308-af20-6bd546e95cc8" CreationDate="2020-11-24T13:21:16.253" UserId="7435" Comment="Put question in title. Linked for context. Copy-edit. (Sill needs an example of her sleeping.)" Text="In all of Greek mythology, [Gaia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia) played an important role: giving birth to the titans and giants, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But most of the time she is in a deep slumber in the creation of mythology?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23560" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="7740" RevisionGUID="a8483502-a432-4308-af20-6bd546e95cc8" CreationDate="2020-11-24T13:21:16.253" UserId="7435" Comment="Put question in title. Linked for context. Copy-edit. (Sill needs an example of her sleeping.)" Text="Why was Gaia in deep slumber during creation?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23561" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="7740" RevisionGUID="a8483502-a432-4308-af20-6bd546e95cc8" CreationDate="2020-11-24T13:21:16.253" Comment="Proposed by 7435 approved by 5726, 2682 edit id of 1848" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23562" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7754" RevisionGUID="a6d8cb22-b167-46d0-8fef-a1f2c48354f2" CreationDate="2020-11-24T15:09:59.027" UserId="5511" Text="The concept of Hades and the realms therein evolved according to the texts that survived. There was probably never a &quot;Hellenic Unified Theory&quot; of the underworld and the location of its realms. Different authors give us different accounts in different eras. But as a general guideline, it's important to consider that the Greeks would have had a different understanding (or even absence) of some of the concepts in/underlying your question than we do today. For example:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Soul** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The concept is different from the Judeo-Christian definition. A *psyche* (Ancient Greek: ψυχή *psykhḗ*, of ψύχειν *psýkhein*, &quot;to breathe&quot;) comprises the mental abilities of a living being: reason, character, feeling, consciousness, qualia, memory, perception, thinking, etc. Psyche was also the name of a deity. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Greek philosophers, such as Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle, understood that the soul (ψυχή psūchê) must have a logical faculty, the exercise of which was the most divine of human actions. At his defense trial, Socrates even summarized his teachings as nothing other than an exhortation for his fellow Athenians to excel in matters of the psyche since all bodily goods are dependent on such excellence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hell**&#xD;&#xA;Early New Testament authors chose the word *Hades* to translate the Jewish concept of [sheol][1] and the Christian concept of hell. To the Greeks, Hades was however a very different concept. As mentioned, the quality of afterlife was much more dependent on remembrance than on actions in life. The notion of judgement and punishment by hell as in Christianity is mostly absent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Afterlife**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greeks originally had a very different idea of the afterlife than in Judeo-Christian or Egyptian mythology. In ancient Greece the continued existence of the dead depended on their constant remembrance by the living. In ancient Greece death was defeated, not by the gods, but by the human agency of memory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Afterlife &amp; Underworld were evolving ideas in Greek mythology**&#xD;&#xA;The after-life for the ancient Greeks originally equated *Hades*, a mostly grey and dreary world. In Homer's *Odyssey* in which Odysseus meets the spirit of the great warrior Achilles in the nether-world where Achilles tells him he would rather be a landless slave on earth than a king in the underworld. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By the time of Plato, however (4th century BCE) the after-life had changed in character so that souls were better rewarded for their pains once they had left the earth; but only in so much as the living kept their memory alive. So different eras in Hellenic history (and the development of the mythology) would render different conceptions of the underworld. &#xD;&#xA;While both Elysium and Tartarus existed in the time of the writer Hesiod (contemporary of Homer) they were not understood then in the same way they came to be.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Eusebia**&#xD;&#xA;It was considered one's duty to the dead to remember them well, regardless of the life they had lived, the mistakes they had made, and, thereby, provide them with continued existence in Elysium. This remembrance was not considered a matter of personal choice but, rather, an important part of what the Greeks knew as *Eusebia*. We translate the Greek word *Eusebia* today as `piety' (again by Judeo-Christian influence) but it was much more than that: it was one's duty to oneself, others and the gods which kept society on track and made clear one's place in the community.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol#:~:text=Sheol%20(%2F%CB%88%CA%83i%CB%90o%CA%8A,also%20called%20Hades%20in%20Greek." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23563" PostHistoryTypeId="52" PostId="7753" RevisionGUID="818b6bfc-3c02-4b94-87e1-6f48ffc79cb4" CreationDate="2020-11-24T18:05:42.717" />
  <row Id="23564" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7755" RevisionGUID="79f59c37-d22f-48ca-9c62-cb8abd06b4cc" CreationDate="2020-11-25T00:29:42.273" UserId="7439" Text="There are tons of tales of dragons. But where did they come from? What inspired people to tell of deadly scaly beasts? Especially since the tales of dragons original from around the world, what could inspire so many people to tell of dragons?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23565" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7755" RevisionGUID="79f59c37-d22f-48ca-9c62-cb8abd06b4cc" CreationDate="2020-11-25T00:29:42.273" UserId="7439" Text="Where Did the Legends of Dragons Come From?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23566" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7755" RevisionGUID="79f59c37-d22f-48ca-9c62-cb8abd06b4cc" CreationDate="2020-11-25T00:29:42.273" UserId="7439" Text="|dragons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23567" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7756" RevisionGUID="e663b39d-53e2-48f5-be5d-32f4eefc07a2" CreationDate="2020-11-25T02:47:35.263" UserId="6649" Text="## Personally, I think this is obvious. ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;People found large and huge bones in various places.  What the did not have was a concept that this could be something other than a contemporary species.  Then you get a series of questions:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;### Why don't we see them? ###&#xD;&#xA;Because they hide.  And do so well.&#xD;&#xA;### Why do we see only bones, not corpses? ###&#xD;&#xA;Well, they must have fire inside them that burns up their flesh when they die.&#xD;&#xA;### Are there several different species? ###&#xD;&#xA;Not likely.&#xD;&#xA;### Does their fire come out at other times? ###&#xD;&#xA;Maybe.  I think the legends vary.&#xD;&#xA;### Can I kill one? ###&#xD;&#xA;Only if your name is George.  :-)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## What next ##&#xD;&#xA;Well, in the 17th or 18th century (I think), somebody worked out these were fossils.  Now we call them dinosaurs.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think if you take a Brontosaurus, Tyrannosaurus Rex, and Pterodactyl and combine them judiciously, you will get a European Dragon." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23568" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="7755" RevisionGUID="8c13ae1e-385c-457d-aef4-d8f3801c0cfa" CreationDate="2020-11-25T15:23:14.357" UserId="-1" Comment="101" Text="{&quot;OriginalQuestionIds&quot;:[7706],&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;,&quot;BindingReason&quot;:{&quot;DuplicateApprovedByAsker&quot;:&quot;&quot;}}]}" />
  <row Id="23569" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7749" RevisionGUID="aed8b6de-a61e-422b-875a-ca01d1169bed" CreationDate="2020-11-26T16:11:36.820" UserId="6739" Comment="added 58 characters in body" Text="The greek Drákaines (Δράκαινες) is a race or group of serpent-like creatures with human features, generally female. Basically what the Medusa from the original 80's Clash of the Titans, minus the snakes for hair. The singular name is drakaina (Δρακαινα), and the latin name is dracaena. Does anyone know the name of any other mythological creatures, from any other regions, such as ancient Egypt, Persia, China, or Japan, with the same description, a creature which is upper half human, lower half serpent?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23570" PostHistoryTypeId="36" PostId="7757" RevisionGUID="194e954f-c344-4608-a9b1-c97682791a44" CreationDate="2020-11-26T17:25:09.827" UserId="-1" Comment="from https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/79856/what-is-the-origin-of-an-old-babylonish-fable-about-an-evergreen-tree-a-common" />
  <row Id="23571" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7757" RevisionGUID="9acc0a58-6806-4890-a401-6436a7afd18a" CreationDate="2020-11-25T21:13:41.553" UserId="7097" Text="Searching for &quot;evergreen tree which sprang out of a dead tree stump&quot; gets nearly 3000 hits.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Seed of the Woman and the Power of Darkness - Donbor Syiemlieh - Google Books](https://books.google.ca/books?id=o45NDwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA74&amp;lpg=PA74&amp;dq=%22evergreen+tree+which+sprang%22&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=iR5pDFk7VS&amp;sig=ACfU3U3B7z2Fx43jVuVCRFyT7gJDj4LgeQ&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwirxKrgxJ7tAhUIXM0KHdhAAjw4ChDoATAFegQIARAC#v=onepage&amp;q=%22evergreen%20tree%20which%20sprang%22&amp;f=false) is an example:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;An old Babylonish fable told of an evergreen tree which sprang out of a dead tree stump.&#xD;&#xA;The old stump symbolized the dead Nimrod, the new evergreen tree symbolized that Nimrod had come to life again in Tammuz!&#xD;&#xA;Among the Druids the oak was sacred, among the Egyptians it was the palm, and in Rome it was the fir, which was decorated with red berries&#xD;&#xA;during the Saturnalia!&quot; (Walsh, *Curiosities of Popular Customs*, p. 242).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Obviously I didn't check all results, but those that I did check contain that same quotation, and almost all give the same attribution.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The problem is, while page 242 of that book *does* talk about Christmas trees, and the writing style is similar, it doesn't include the above quotation or anything like it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Image of page 242][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The quotation doesn't appear elsewhere in that section or anywhere else in [the book](https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=2PeBAAAAMAAJ&amp;hl=en&amp;pg=GBS.PA242).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what *is* its origin?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/dQXwY.png&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23572" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7757" RevisionGUID="9acc0a58-6806-4890-a401-6436a7afd18a" CreationDate="2020-11-25T21:13:41.553" UserId="7097" Text="What is the origin of an old Babylonish fable about an evergreen tree (a common Christmas tree quotation)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23573" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7757" RevisionGUID="9acc0a58-6806-4890-a401-6436a7afd18a" CreationDate="2020-11-25T21:13:41.553" UserId="7097" Text="|christmas|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23574" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="7757" RevisionGUID="10c07ff0-5586-4233-bc0d-d911e43bf482" CreationDate="2020-11-26T17:33:00.200" UserId="1241" Comment="edited tags" Text="|folklore|origins|traditions|christmas|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23575" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7745" RevisionGUID="05aa0bb9-5559-4f13-bf96-bea638de6259" CreationDate="2020-11-26T20:50:43.053" UserId="1241" Comment="added 2058 characters in body" Text="The story of [Clytemnestra][1] and [Iphigenia][2] is one possibility that I know of.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Iphigenia][3]was the daughter of Agamemnon and Clytemnestra in Greek mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; While the Greek army was preparing to set sail for Troy during the Trojan War, Agamemnon caused the anger of the goddess Artemis, because he killed a sacred deer. So, she decided to stop all winds, and the ships would not be able to sail. The seer Calchas realised what the problem was, and informed Agamemnon that to appease the goddess, Agamemnon had to sacrifice Iphigenia to her. Reluctant at first, Agamemnon was forced to agree in the end. He lied to his daughter and his wife by saying that Iphigenia was to marry Achillles before they left. The mother and daughter happily went to the port of Aulis, only to find out the horrible truth. Achilles, unaware that his name was used in a lie, tried to prevent the sacrifice, but Iphigenia utterly decided to sacrifice herself in honour and of her own volition. The most popular version of what happened afterwards is that on the moment of the sacrifice, the goddess Artemis substituted Iphigenia for a deer, but Calchas who was the only witness remained silent. Iphigenia was then brought by Artemis to the city of Tauris where she became the goddess' priestess.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Years later, after Orestes, Iphigenia's brother, had killed his mother and her lover Aegisthus, he was hunted by the Erinyes for committing matricide. He was then advised to go to Tauris, take the carved wooden image of Artemis and bring it back to Athens. In Tauris, where he went with his friend Pylades, he was taken captive by the locals, and the two men were brought before Iphigenia. Although initially the two siblings did not recognise each other, they finally realised the truth and managed to escape the city. They then returned to Greece, where Iphigenia continued to serve Artemis as a priestess in her temple.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clytemnestra&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iphigenia&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.greekmythology.com/Myths/Mortals/Iphigenia/iphigenia.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23577" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6237" RevisionGUID="b736753f-89e5-459e-ae04-be90a33eabd1" CreationDate="2020-11-27T08:02:30.243" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23578" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5903" RevisionGUID="683368e6-5729-47fd-96a9-6716a1685fa7" CreationDate="2020-11-27T10:00:20.063" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23579" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7759" RevisionGUID="12e8973e-a1b4-42b3-ab20-96a15c5bae15" CreationDate="2020-11-27T10:18:07.007" UserId="5511" Text="This confuses two different concepts: **the evergreen Tree of Life** from Mesopotamian stories, and the origin of the Christmas tree tradition around the 25th of December, which is of other origins.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Let's start with the Tree of Life myths.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Tree of Life myth is the most likely basis for much of Genesis' Garden of Eden myth. It is possibly derived from the Asherah and other Mesopotamian myths. In the Torah and Christian versions of the myth, Asherah, consort of Yahweh &amp; &quot;mother of all&quot;, becomes Eve, consort of Adam &amp; &quot;mother of all&quot;. There is ample historical evidence for this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [Kuntillet 'Arjud and Khirbet el-Kom inscriptions][1], Asherah is named with Yahweh - probably as his consort. In Canaanite myth, Asherah (Ug. *Athirat*) was the consort of El, the creator god, and she begat the seventy lesser gods, the sons of El. Asherah became Yahweh's consort through an identification of El with Yahweh (seen throughout the OT). In Canaanite texts, Asherah is called the &quot;Mother of All&quot; and one of her titles was *qnyt 'ilm* &quot;Creator of the Gods&quot;. It is interesting that *qnh* is an unusual word in Hebrew for &quot;create&quot; as it usually means &quot;acquire&quot; (El, in contrast, was called *bny bnwt* &quot;Creator of Created Things&quot; in the Ugaritic texts). The notion of Eve as a creator goddess also appears in muted form in Genesis 3:20, 4:1 where Eve is called &quot;the mother of all living&quot; and Eve says after the birth of Cain, &quot;I have created (*qnh*) a man with the help of Yahweh,&quot; employing the same verb as applied to Asherah in the Ugaritic texts. The latter quote is also very similar to a statement regarding the Akkadian creator goddess *Aruru* (= Sumerian *Ninhursag*): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aruru zi-ir a-mi-lu-ti it-ti-shu ib-ta-nu &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Aruru, with the help of [Marduk], created the seed of mankind&quot; (KIB, vi. I, 40). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another clue that Eve's identity originally was not as it is given in the story can be found in the name: Hebrew *chwwh*, being related to Aramaic *chwyh* and Phoenician *chwt* &quot;snake&quot;. *Chawat* appears in a Phoenician inscription as one of the names of Elat &quot;Goddess&quot;, that is, Asherah.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is in Proverbs where we meet Asherah as Wisdom personified. She appears as a creator goddess in Proverbs 8:22-31 and the following chapter describes a banquet that Wisdom hosts in her palace (Proverbs 9:1-6). In the Ugaritic texts, we read similarly of Asherah and her consort El hosting banquets in their mountain palace (cf. KTU 1.1 IV 26-35). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Proverbs 3:13-18 contains some paronomasia between the name Asherah ('*ashrh*) and the word &quot;happy&quot; ('*ashre*), which is paired with the &quot;tree of life&quot; in a chiasm:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Happy ('*ashre*) is the one who finds wisdom .... She is a tree of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; life ('*ts chyym*) to those who lay hold of her; those who hold her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fast are made happy (*m'sshr*).&quot; (Proverbs 3:13, 18; cf. 11:30; 15:4)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The expression is nearly identical to &quot;the tree of life&quot; ('*ts h-chyym*) of Genesis 2:9, which refers to a specific mythological tree while the &quot;tree of life&quot; in Proverbs refers to a more abstract Wisdom, but the verse also plays on the name Asherah. It is interesting that Wisdom is identified with the &quot;tree of life&quot; when a &quot;tree of knowledge of good and evil&quot; (e.g. &quot;wisdom&quot;) is distinguished from the Tree of Life in the Eden narrative. Many scholars since the time of Wellhausen have suggested that this second tree originated as a doublet of the first.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Let's now look at the origins of the Christmas tree**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Long before Christianity appeared, people in the Northern Hemisphere used evergreen plants to decorate their homes, particularly the doors, to celebrate the Winter Solstice. On December 21 or December 22, the day is the shortest and the night the longest. Traditionally, this time of the year is seen as the return in strength of the sun god who had been weakened during winter — and the evergreen plants served as a reminder that the god would glow again and summer was to be expected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The solstice was celebrated by the Egyptians who filled their homes with green palm rushes in honor of the god Ra, who had the head of a hawk and wore the sun as a crown. In Northern Europe, the Celts decorated their druid temples with evergreen boughs which signified everlasting life. Further up north, the Vikings thought evergreens were the plants of Balder, the god of light and peace. The ancient Romans marked the Winter Solstice with a feast called Saturnalia thrown in honor of Saturn, the god of agriculture, and, like the Celts, decorated their homes and temples with evergreen boughs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**And finally, December 25th**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Saturnalia was the most important celebration in Roman life. It was a week-long lawless celebration held between 17 and 25 December. In the early days of Christianity, the birth of Jesus was set at the last day of Saturnalia by the first Christian Romans in power to approach pagans, even though scholars assert Jesus was born nine months later. According to Luke 1:24-26, Mary conceived Jesus in the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy with John the Baptist. This means that Jesus was born 15 months after the angel Gabriel appeared to Elizabeth’s husband, Zacharias, and informed him that his wife would bear a child.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Luke 1:5, Zacharias was a priest of the division of Abijah. Luke 1:8 says that Gabriel appeared to Zacharias while he was serving as a priest in the Temple.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We know from the Talmud and other sources that the division of Abijah served as priests during the second half of the fourth month of the Jewish religious calendar — which would have put it in late June (the Jewish religious calendar begins in March with Passover).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Fifteen months later would place the birth of Jesus in the seventh month of the Jewish calendar. That would be in the fall of the year, in either late September or early October. His conception, not His birth, would have occurred in December of the previous year.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Conclusions:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The Mesopotamian myths about evergreen trees are the basis of the Genesis myth, not the Christmas tree&#xD;&#xA; - The Christmas tree tradition stems from various customs of decorating with green plants around the Winter Solstice&#xD;&#xA; - December 25th was strategically chosen as the &quot;official&quot; birthday of Jesus to coincide with the most important Roman Winter solstice festivity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khirbet_el-Qom" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23580" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="7757" RevisionGUID="6d137ae3-c747-4ba1-afd6-42df85316433" CreationDate="2020-11-27T14:58:25.447" UserId="7097" Comment="Clarify question.  I'm looking for the source of the quotation, not the origin of the tale." Text="What is the origin of a common Christmas tree quotation concerning an old Babylonish fable about an evergreen tree?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23588" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="7742" RevisionGUID="70aed053-b072-41d9-bbf6-e10756f75f58" CreationDate="2020-11-29T12:33:32.340" UserId="108" Comment="109" />
  <row Id="23592" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="3096" RevisionGUID="e697abf1-23a8-459c-80c2-b1ad175a6679" CreationDate="2020-11-29T12:34:14.133" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="23593" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7761" RevisionGUID="ef5364ea-aa67-4414-ab32-72bc8fcce552" CreationDate="2020-11-29T23:48:51.093" UserId="7461" Text="Birds generally are symbols of high power, e.g. the sun. Excluding mythical birds, which real species are most strongly associated with power, magic, and specifically fire in particular?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23594" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7761" RevisionGUID="ef5364ea-aa67-4414-ab32-72bc8fcce552" CreationDate="2020-11-29T23:48:51.093" UserId="7461" Text="Which (real) birds are most strongly associated with fire?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23595" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7761" RevisionGUID="ef5364ea-aa67-4414-ab32-72bc8fcce552" CreationDate="2020-11-29T23:48:51.093" UserId="7461" Text="|symbolism|animals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23600" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7764" RevisionGUID="9bb4f290-0b68-4398-9b3a-dd91f241a330" CreationDate="2020-11-30T08:17:03.427" UserId="5511" Text="Several real bird species are called &quot;firebirds&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - subspecies of northern oriole, like [Baltimore oriole][1]&#xD;&#xA; - various birds, having bright scarlet or orange plumage like [Scarlet tanager][2]&#xD;&#xA; - [Sharp-tailed grouse][3]&#xD;&#xA; - [Vermilion flycatcher][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_oriole&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarlet_tanager&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharp-tailed_grouse&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermilion_flycatcher" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23603" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7766" RevisionGUID="79ffcd1d-ef7f-41db-80e3-837e79d24076" CreationDate="2020-12-01T09:48:11.940" UserId="7469" Text="I am looking for the name of a mythological person, god, spirit etc. or narrative which stands for the unbiased search for knowledge or naive learning. I am not so much looking for famous examples for knowledge or wisdom in general, like maybe ancient greek Athena or Apollo, but more for something that reflects learning by doing from the perspective of someone unknowing, unaware, but curious. Maybe something that links the process of learning to making mistakes or starting from scratch or reinventing the wheel. It could also entail ultimate failure or slow growth as a notion. It does not have to come from a certain cultural background." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23604" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7766" RevisionGUID="79ffcd1d-ef7f-41db-80e3-837e79d24076" CreationDate="2020-12-01T09:48:11.940" UserId="7469" Text="Mythological figure for self-motivated seeking of unprejudiced knowledge" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23605" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7766" RevisionGUID="79ffcd1d-ef7f-41db-80e3-837e79d24076" CreationDate="2020-12-01T09:48:11.940" UserId="7469" Text="|comparative|concepts|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23609" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7768" RevisionGUID="0737bc77-6d66-4948-81f0-71cf65f72f2a" CreationDate="2020-12-01T18:32:53.097" UserId="7470" Text="My answer is Ladon, a creature from Greek mythology. Ladon is a hundred-headed dragon that guarded the Garden of the Hesperides as well as the golden apples that grew on the tree there. &quot;Ladon was given several parentages, each of which placed him at an archaic level in Greek myth: the offspring of &quot;Keto, joined in heated passion with Phorcys&quot; or of Typhon, who was himself serpent-like from the waist down, and Echidna or of Gaia herself, or Hera.&quot; from fandom the greek mythology wiki." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23611" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5122" RevisionGUID="488b51a6-5396-4c51-a989-2b71fccdf118" CreationDate="2020-12-02T17:36:20.083" UserId="2682" Comment="updated the images as well as some details" Text="The story occurs in only two ancient writings: first in Hesiod's *Theogony*, where just a few tantalising details are offered towards your Question, and then only about 800 years after that, in Apollodorus' *Library*, wherein Hesiod's scant information is further truncated.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only thing that the *Library* says about the potential son of Zeus and Metis (in 1.3.6) is that he &quot;would gain the lordship of the sky&quot;, or, as James George Frazer translates it, he &quot;should be the lord of heaven&quot;, which must mean that he would be some kind of sky-god, like Zeus and Ouranos [Uranus] before him, and that, like these predecessors of his, he would become the supreme deity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod's first mention of him indicates that he would have something in common with his sister, because their mother's destiny was to give birth to &quot;very wise children,&quot; first Athena and then him. Or in other words, going by Daryl Hine's 2005 translation, &quot;All too intelligent children were destined to come out of Metis&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Theogony* then goes on to say that this son would be &quot;of overbearing spirit&quot;, according to Hugh Gerard Evelyn-White's 1920 translation. In Hine's translation, he would be &quot;of a reckless character, larger than life&quot;. And in the surviving manuscripts of Hesiod, that's apparently all there is to it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;... Or it *would* be if Evelyn-White hadn't used the work of Rudolf Peppmüller to restore a significant chunk of the next section of the *Theogony* (appearing in between Lines 929 &amp; 930 in Evelyn-White's edition of the Greek). Evelyn-White seems to be saying (in a footnote on p. 146 of his translation) that this segment, missing from the main ancient text, Peppmüller was able to reconstruct from a quote that the physician Galen (100s AD) made of a quote by the philosopher Chrysippus (200s BC).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is within this (salvaged) lacuna that the detailed story is narrated regarding Athena's birth from Zeus's head. It is also where we get the only other detail mentioned about Athena's unborn younger brother. Zeus swallowed Metis, it says,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for fear that she might bring forth something stronger than his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thunderbolt...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That is really not much to go on, but the particular phrasing of how this statement is translated could point us in a slightly more interesting direction. In the online Encyclopedia article on Metis, on Theoi.com, we are told that Zeus devoured his wife&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for fear that she might bring forth a thunderbolt stronger than his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; own...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is ambiguous enough to mean that the son would be born bearing a thunderbolt as his weapon, in similarity to how his sister was born fully armed (and armoured), or, even more dramatically, that he himself would *be* a thunderbolt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is likely far-fetched but not completely unprecedented. (Note the strange example in Pindar, who says that gold itself [personified as a god named Khrysos, &quot;Gold&quot;] was a son of Zeus.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Arthur Bernard Cook's work *Zeus: A Study in Ancient Religion* displays a drawing [on p. 1156 of Vol. 3: *Zeus, God of the Dark Sky (Earthquakes, Clouds, Wind, Dew, Rain, Meteorites)*] of this *drakhma* from Olympia:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Olympian Drakhma][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here Cook says that Charles Theodore Seltman, who had dealt with this coin, described the winged thunderbolt depicted above as bearing a handle which takes &quot;the shape of a small human head, perhaps Keraunos.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Keraunos*, &quot;Thunderbolt,&quot; which contains both thunder and lightning, was the divine king's signature armament as well as it was a title of Zeus in his capacity as the god of these weather phenomena. Places and persons that had been struck by lightning became sacred, as objects which had been touched by Zeus himself, as though this celestial electricity was itself a form of the god or merely an extension of him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A better illustration of all of this appears literally in a Roman-era mosaic which I once saw some years back but sadly have not been able to recall its exact reference. (Therefore I am simply unable to verify the current paragraph beyond what it claims.) It may be a scene depicting the death of Helios' son Phaethon, who was zapped out of the sky by Zeus. At any rate, in the artwork, both Zeus himself and his thunderbolt are depicted. Zeus has just launched his weapon, which is portrayed as a young winged man named Keraunos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If Metis's unborn son was going to be the personification of thunder and lightning, perhaps it was along these lines that he was envisioned. At any rate, that sliver of an idea from the recovered lines of the *Theogony* suggests that this son would have been a thunder-god as well. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And if the imagery employed to depict thunderbolts is something further to go on (and assuming that it is correct to think of this son as a thunderbolt avatar), then in addition to being &quot;very wise&quot; and &quot;overbearing&quot;, he might have had wings and been composed partly of flames. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Seltman Coin][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Here's another one of Seltman's coins upon which the thunderbolt appears as much more of a fiery icon.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/2IEd6.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/E4WsP.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23612" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7770" RevisionGUID="3ada1755-2d91-4e5d-b8a7-a5ee54ece301" CreationDate="2020-12-03T09:34:03.060" UserId="7478" Text="Much can be deduced from the story of Odysseus and Diomedes going to Skyros to find Achilles. A man as smart as Odysseus would surely have looked for male characteristics such as an Adam's apple or a deeper voice but such characteristics must have been absent in the apparent females he needed to check out. Odysseus therefore had to resort to the trick  of including a sword and shield among the various wares he had on offer. Being tall and blonde did not serve to distinguish Achilles from the girls so clearly they must all have been tall and blonde. However, only Achilles had warlike inclinations and this is what gave him away. It would not be beyond the bounds of possibility to suggest that he had Klinefelter's Syndrome. This would fit all the known facts and give us a pretty good idea of what he really looked like. It would also explain the generalized absence of facial hair in pictorial representations.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23613" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2924" RevisionGUID="6483b0e8-1239-445c-a8eb-926443992bb5" CreationDate="2020-12-03T12:03:05.330" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23616" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1331" RevisionGUID="8fa9f8d6-5e6b-4fc7-867a-2c0400e0b423" CreationDate="2020-12-04T17:44:59.270" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected spelling &amp; a detail" Text="When Hephaestus returns to Olympus after being thrown out by Hera, some authors/artists portray him as riding a donkey:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Source: [Theoi.com][2])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any reason why he rides a donkey? Why not a horse or a turtle?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Ypfdv.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.theoi.com/Gallery/K7.1.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23617" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="1331" RevisionGUID="8fa9f8d6-5e6b-4fc7-867a-2c0400e0b423" CreationDate="2020-12-04T17:44:59.270" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected spelling &amp; a detail" Text="Symbolism behind Hephaestus riding a donkey" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23620" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7772" RevisionGUID="75de0169-50b9-4c3c-a2fa-fcea07d091ce" CreationDate="2020-12-05T23:19:33.237" UserId="1184" Text="Although many summaries mention that Merlin's shapeshifting was a prominent part of several arthurian stories or myths, the only specific mention of which shapes he assumes is that of a bird (in *Perceval en prose*), and a vaguer description that he could assume the shape of 'a wild man'.  I've tried to find a listing of what shapes he assumes (and where), but I can't find one, just further descriptions of the origins of his shapeshifting or that it's a prominent part of the role he plays in the legends.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A good answer would involve a list of all the shapes he is described as assuming in the historical tales/legends, ideally also citing which specific stories he assumes that shape in." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23621" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7772" RevisionGUID="75de0169-50b9-4c3c-a2fa-fcea07d091ce" CreationDate="2020-12-05T23:19:33.237" UserId="1184" Text="What specific shapes does Merlin (or myrddin) assume in the various arthurian legends/stories?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23622" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7772" RevisionGUID="75de0169-50b9-4c3c-a2fa-fcea07d091ce" CreationDate="2020-12-05T23:19:33.237" UserId="1184" Text="|arthurian|merlin|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23623" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7773" RevisionGUID="c1e4fe99-8fbc-446d-888d-326f6a910903" CreationDate="2020-12-06T14:40:23.377" UserId="5511" Text="The chronology of the main Arthurian text ranges from the 6th to the 15th century, the older ones rarely as complete texts. The Myrrdin myths appear for the first time in a rather unrelated way in the 12th century, and then become more intertwined with the Arthurian legends. The main textual *sources* regarding shapeshifting in this chronology have been marked in bold. The shapeshifting stories that stem from these source texts are often adapted and aggrandized in later texts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - *Y Gododdin*, probably originally sixth century (Old Welsh)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - *Gildas, De excidio et conquestu Britannie* [Concerning the Ruin and Conquest of Britain], c. 530-40 (Latin)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - “Nennius,” *Historia Brittonum* [History of the Britons], c. 800 (Latin) Names Arthur, says he was the dux bellorum [leader of battles] of the British, and gives a list of 12 battles; elsewhere, refers to Arthur’s dog Cavall and to his son Amr&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - *Annales Cambrie* [The Welsh Annals], c. 960-980 (Latin) Gives 518 as the date of the battle of Mount Badon, and gives 539 as the date of the battle of Camlann, “in which Arthur and Medraut fell” ; historians now suggest date closer to 490 and 511 for these battles&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - *Early Welsh poetic references*, 10th century on (Middle Welsh). Stanzas of the Grave calls Arthur’s grave “difficult,” “troubling”. Spoils of Annwn tells of a raid by Arthur and his men on Caer Sidi in the otherworld, to bring back a mysterious cauldron; only 7 men return. Arthur and the Porter names some of Arthur’s companions, including Cei (Kay) and Bedwyr (Bedivere), and lists battles at Edinburgh, and against witches and a “clawing cat”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The *Porta della Pescheria* of Modena Cathedral, c. 1120-1140. Also called the Modena Archivolt, this sculpted archway shows characters labelled Artus de Bretania, Isdernus, Galvagin, and Che, among others, attacking a tower in which are figures labelled Winlogee and Mardoc&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; -  **Geoffrey of Monmouth, *Historia regum Britannie*** [History of the Kings of Britain], c. 1136 (Latin). A history of the kings of Britain, starting from the founding of Britain by Brutus and continuing to the completion of the Saxon conquest; the story of Arthur takes up about a third of the book. Geoffrey is the first to provide a whole story for Arthur; events include his conception by Uther Pendragon and Ygraine, Duchess of Cornwall, through the machinations of Merlin (Geoffrey also wrote a poem called the Vita Merlini, which has little to do with the Arthurian story); his great reputation; his marriage to Guenevere; his defeat of Lucius, Emperor of Rome; Mordred’s usurping of the throne and marrying of Guenevere; the final battle in which Arthur and Mordred die; Arthur’s being taken away to the Island of Avalon&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Wace, *Roman de Brut*, c. 1155 (Anglo Norman). A verse translation (c. 15,000 lines) of Geoffrey, which expands on its source by adding details such as the Round Table and the “messianic hope,” the idea that Arthur is not dead and will return when his country has need of him&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The *Tree of Life Mosaic*, Otranto Cathedral, c. 1163. A huge mosaic on the floor of the nave of Otranto Cathedral, which includes a king riding on a goat; the figure is labelled Rex Arturus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Layamon, *Brut*, late twelfth century (early Middle English). A verse translation (c. 32,000 lines) of Wace, cuts some of the more “courtly” portions of Wace, adds more battle detail; gives the story of the origins of the Round Table&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Chrétien de Troyes, writing last half of the twelfth century (Old French). In his *five romances*, Chrétien involves knights of Arthur’s courts in various adventures, usually motivated by their desire to win (or win back) the love of a lady; Arthur himself becomes peripheral. Lancelot tells the story of an event in the relationship between Lancelot and Guenevere. Perceval introduces the grail, but is not very specific about its significance, and is in any case unfinished&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Thomas d’Angleterre, *Tristan*, c. 1175 (Anglo-Norman). A now fragmentary, courtly version of the story of Tristan and Iseut&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - *Arthur’s tomb is “discovered,”* c. 1190 (Latin). Gerald of Wales reports that Arthur’s tomb was discovered at Glastonbury Abbey; Arthur is buried with Guenevere, described as his “second wife” ; his bones are huge and show the signs of many wounds&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Robert de Boron, J*oseph d’Aramathie, Merlin, the Didot-Perceval***, c.1191-1202 (Old French). Much of this does not survive in its original form, but there is an adaptation of these three texts which then itself became the basis for the so-called Vulgate Cycle of Arthurian romance, a huge, thirteenth-century collection. Robert’s work is a continuation of Chrétien’s Perceval; it provides a history for the grail&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Béroul’s Tristan, late twelfth century (Anglo-Norman). A long fragment of the Tristan and Isolde story&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The *Vulgate Cycle*, c. 1215-1235 (French). A huge prose cycle which attempts to incorporate the whole of Arthurian story; its parts are the Queste del Saint Graal, the Mort (le roi) Artu, the Lancelot, the Estoire del Saint Graal, and the Vulgate Merlin [these two carry the name of Robert de Boron]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The Prose *Tristan*, second and third quarters of the thirteenth century (French). The first romance to bring the story of Tristan and Iseut completely into the Arthurian world&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Stanzaic *Morte Arthur*, fourteenth century (Middle English). Verse romance based on the French Mort le roi Artur.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - *Sir Gawain and the Green Knight*, last quarter fourteenth century (Middle English). Major alliterative poem featuring Gawain as the focus of a complex test of his knighthood&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Awntyrs *off Arthure at the Terne Wathelyn*, late fourteenth century (Middle English). &#xD;&#xA;Alliterative poem based in part on a popular sermon story&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Alliterative *Morte Arthure*, near end of fourteenth century (Middle English). Major alliterative poem in the chronicle tradition&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Sir Thomas Malory, *Le Morte Darthur***, c. 1470. Massive prose compilation/ adaptation of Arthurian chronicle and romance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From this chronology it is clear that the myrrdin stories do not enter into the Arthurian legends until the 12th century. However, *Myrddin Wyllt* (Welsh: [ˈmərðɪn ˈwɨɬt]—&quot;Myrddin the Wild&quot;, Cornish: *Marzhin Gwyls*, Breton: *Merzhin Gueld*) is a figure in medieval Welsh legend. A prophet and a madman, he was introduced into Arthurian legend by Geoffrey of Monmouth as Merlin the wizard, associated with the town of Carmarthen in South Wales. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Middle Welsh poetry he is accounted a chief bard, the speaker of several poems in The *Black Book of Carmarthen* and The *Red Book of Hergest*. He is called *Wyllt*—&quot;the Wild&quot;—by Elis Gruffydd, and elsewhere *Myrddin Emrys* (&quot;Ambrosius&quot;), *Merlinus Caledonensis* (&quot;of Caledonia&quot;) or *Merlin Sylvestris* (&quot;of the woods&quot;).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The earliest (pre-12th century) Welsh poems about the Myrddin legend present him as a madman living an existence in the Caledonian Forest. There he ruminates on his former existence and the disaster of the death of his lord *Gwenddoleu*, whom he served as bard. The poems sketch the events of the *Battle of Arfderydd*, where *Riderch Hael*, King of *Alt Clut* (Strathclyde) slaughtered the forces of *Gwenddoleu ap Ceidio*, and Myrddin went mad watching this defeat. The *Annales Cambriae* date this battle to 573. For half a mi;llenium, the Arthurian and Myrrdin stories developed independently, and we can see that many of his later shapeshifting abilities (like a &quot;wild man&quot;) can be traced to the original bard going mad and living in the forest in recluse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's not until Geoffrey of Monmouth &amp; Robert de Boron's work that these fragments of the original story are transformed into magical abilities, and apparitions in other forms are written:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Merlin appears as a woodcutter with an axe about his neck, big shoes, a torn coat, bristly hair, and a large beard. &#xD;&#xA; - He is later found in the forest of Northumberland by a follower of Uther disguised as an ugly man and tending a great herd of beasts. &#xD;&#xA; - He then appears first as a handsome man and then as a beautiful boy. &#xD;&#xA; - Years later, he approaches Arthur disguised as a peasant wearing leather boots, a wool coat, a hood, and a belt of knotted sheepskin. He is described as tall, black and bristly, and as seeming cruel and fierce. &#xD;&#xA;- Finally, he appears as an old man with a long beard, short and hunchbacked, in an old torn woolen coat, who carries a club and drives a multitude of beasts before him&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason for this are several developments in medieval literature in the 12th century,  when Western Europe saw an increase in the production of Latin texts and a proliferation of literate clerics from the multiplying cathedral schools. At the same time, vernacular literatures ranging from Provençal to Icelandic embodied in lyric and romance the values and worldview of an increasingly self-conscious and prosperous courtly aristocracy. These two trends contributed to a sweeping revival of letters with a lasting influence on the development of literature in the following centuries. It is in this period that many romanticized stories of chivalry are (re)written:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - c. 1100 Culhwch and Olwen&#xD;&#xA; - c. 1155–60 Roman de Troie by Benoît de Sainte-Maure&#xD;&#xA; - c. 1170 Érec et Énide by Chrétien de Troyes&#xD;&#xA; - c. 1175–1200? Roman de toute chevalerie by Thomas de Kent&#xD;&#xA; - c. 1176 Cligès by Chrétien de Troyes&#xD;&#xA; - 1177–80 Khosrow and Shirin by Nizami Ganjavi&#xD;&#xA; - c. 1177–81 by Chrétien de Troyes: Lancelot, le Chevalier de la Charrette &amp; Yvain, le Chevalier au Lion c. 1180s&#xD;&#xA; - Ipomedon by Hue de Rotelande&#xD;&#xA; - Protheselaus by Hue de Rotelande&#xD;&#xA; - Der arme Heinrich by Hartmann von Aue&#xD;&#xA; - c. 1181–91 Perceval, le Conte du Graal by Chrétien de Troyes&#xD;&#xA; - c. 1190 Gregorius by Hartmann von Aue&#xD;&#xA; - c. 1191–92? Erec by Hartmann von Aue&#xD;&#xA; - 1192 Layla and Majnun by Nizami Ganjavi&#xD;&#xA; - c. 1194? Eskandar-nameh, an Alexander romance, by Nizami Ganjavi&#xD;&#xA; - 1197 Haft Peykar by Nizami Ganjavi&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The common themes in all these works is the idealization of chivalry &amp; romantic/platonic love, and less explicit, but not to a lesser extent, the belief that Christianity trumps pagan magic. Nowhere is the latter more elaborated on than in Thomas Mallory's work. Malory’s work is one of Christian thought, adventure, courage, loyalty, romance, and, most importantly, magic. In *Le Morte D'Arthur* Malory’s use of magic is the bridge between the paganism of the past and the future of Christianity. It provides the balance counter to the Christian thought present through the various stories found throughout the romance. Without magic present, the concept of Christianity would be less successful. These two opposing forces must both be present in medieval romance for either to work. A medieval romance with only magic and no Christian underlying principle would be considered blasphemous – dangerous and morally corrupt. Likewise, a romance with strong Christian anecdotes and no mention of magic would be ineffective. There would be no devil to fight – no pagan thought to overcome and triumph against. The practice of magic is an essential part of this text. Whether for benefic or ill ends, magic appears in almost every book of *Le Morte Darthur*. Magic shapes the text and its characters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Myrrdin's shapeshifting abilities (stemming from mostly natural story parts in the Welsh literature) in this 12th-century renditions become increasingly equated with paganism, mostly due to the role of *Morgan Le Fay*. In *Sir Gawain and the Green Knight*, for example, we read:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Morgne the goddess &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;therefore hit is hir name: &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Weldez non so hyze hawtesse &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;that ho ne con make ful tame”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This presents Morgan as a Celtic goddess, using inspiration from pre-Christian&#xD;&#xA;Celtic sources, especially when taking into account Morgan’s powers of shape-changing&#xD;&#xA;and magic, all of which are powers prescribed to Celtic goddesses.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Myrrdin is the only male magic user in the Arthurian legends who does not rely on Christian miracles. He is posed as a central male figure standing between a&#xD;&#xA;pagan realm, which is distinctly feminine, and the Christian realm, which is chiefly&#xD;&#xA;masculine. While Merlin is a sorcerer gendered as male and thus is presented in a positive&#xD;&#xA;way, the female magic users are portrayed in a very different light.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23626" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7774" RevisionGUID="6c66b305-f6d6-4353-9342-da1be501815e" CreationDate="2020-12-08T07:44:51.510" UserId="7329" Text="For example, tsunamis being water are obvious to be Poseidon's doing, but what about volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, landslides, avalanches, soil liquefaction etc?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some sources state that Poseidon was mainly responsible for earthquakes, however, I have also read that Zeus is also called the 'earth-shaker' in various sources as he is more powerful than Poseidon and also Poseidon being the God of Sea, has no control over any land.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can we also say that these natural disasters occurred when the Gods responsible for them were angered? Or is it just a way for them keeping things in balance? What did the Greeks think?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23627" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7774" RevisionGUID="6c66b305-f6d6-4353-9342-da1be501815e" CreationDate="2020-12-08T07:44:51.510" UserId="7329" Text="Who in Greek mythology is associated with natural disasters?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23628" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7774" RevisionGUID="6c66b305-f6d6-4353-9342-da1be501815e" CreationDate="2020-12-08T07:44:51.510" UserId="7329" Text="|greek|zeus|mythohistory|poseidon|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23629" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7775" RevisionGUID="238cc118-87e2-410e-92b6-fe4ef89b303c" CreationDate="2020-12-12T08:54:32.977" UserId="5511" Text="To assume that the Greeks exclusively associated natural disasters with divine anger or folly would be incorrect. For example:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - *Thucydides* gives an excellent circumstantial account of a tsunami that struck the Aegean seacoasts in 426 BCE and **concludes that the cause was an earthquake** (Papadopoulos and Chalkis 1984). &#xD;&#xA; - *Pliny the Elder* (Historia Naturalis 2.82, 83, 86) remarks that **earthquakes cause waves at sea and inundations on land**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ancient Greek and Roman records contain many references to natural disasters. Analyzing the immediate reactions to the events, as well as the ensuing responses, is only possible where there is dependable evidence. Many natural disasters can be identiﬁed in the classical Mediterranean world, but it becomes more problematic to recover the responses of people and societies to disasters. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are several important reasons for this. One is the simple lack of evidence for some periods and places, especially from early times and less urbanized areas. Literature survives from the upper, educated class, from those who could write it and whose texts were valued by later generations of literati. Another factor is that many descriptions of disaster were written long afterward, lacking direct sources of information and possibly corrupted by tendentious explanations that had arisen in the interim. It is also all too easy for a writer to imagine how he and his society might have reacted in a similar situation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Peloponnesian War and to impute that reaction to different people living under other circumstances and with different traditions and beliefs. This occurs with a historian writing in Roman times about classical Athens, Plutarch, for example, or with Christian writers like Eusebius or Sozo, men writing about what they considered to be pagan antiquity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Only a few cases offer eyewitness accounts of disaster, as well as archaeological and scientific studies**. These are the plague that struck Athens in 430 BCE during the Peloponnesian War, described by Thucydides who witnessed and suffered from it, and the eruption of Vesuvius in 79 CE, recorded in letters by Pliny the Younger, who saw it and fled from it during its height. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reactions to the plague as reported by Thucydides are not always those that might be expected by those with some knowledge of ancient Greek literature. The Homeric poems (Iliad, 1, 33–67) say that the gods, Apollo in particular, send pestilence when they are angry. They do this not to punish some sin or moral failure but to avenge dishonor against themselves or those they protect. It would be reasonable to expect that the Athenians would ask which of the gods had smitten them with the plague and which offerings to make to mollify the divine anger. Nothing of the sort is mentioned by Thucydides, who says people noticed that those who worshipped the gods died with the same frequency as those who did not. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The victims of these disasters were plunged into confusion and uncertainty about what to do to survive. In many cases, social cohesion dissolved, and individuals broke norms and traditions. Some sought help from the gods, and others felt there were no gods. In the aftermath, leaders responded with measures intended to help people, restore the body politic, and rebuild. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23630" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7776" RevisionGUID="b1e81827-bbbd-4f8a-86af-8fb9c8a72c9d" CreationDate="2020-12-15T00:02:41.850" UserId="7097" Text="This question has now been answered:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[quote identification — Literature Stack Exchange](https://literature.stackexchange.com/questions/16665/what-is-the-origin-of-a-common-christmas-tree-quotation-concerning-an-old-babylo/16666#16666)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;TL;DR:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;… **those who attribute the quotation to Walsh are misattributing and/or misquoting**.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;The direct quotation originates with Ralph Woodrow, who paraphrases and cites, but does not quote, Walsh.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;… [page 152](https://archive.org/details/Babylon-Mystery-Religion-Ralph-Woodrow/page/n149/mode/2up?q=%22evergreen+tree+which+sprang+out+of+a+dead+tree+stump%22) in chapter 20 of Woodrow's _Babylon Mystery Religion_." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23631" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7777" RevisionGUID="7c212a9b-037e-41dd-a174-586e75eeadc1" CreationDate="2020-12-16T05:31:38.030" UserId="2892" Text="I was watching some history channel show about cursed placed, and they featured Romanian witches who cursed the central government for a tax policy.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Witchcraft is not taken lightly in Romania. After losing a 2009 election, former foreign minister Mircea Geoana accused president Traian Basescu of using the mystical “power of the purple flame” to damage his campaign and of employing a parapsychologist to attack him with “negative energy”.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Witches curse as Romania spells out plans to tackle false predictions; Irish Times, 2020/12/16][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the show they showed members of parliament wearing purple as a ward against the curses.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; President Traian Basescu and his aides have been known to wear purple on certain days, supposedly to ward off evil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Source: [Curses! Romania forces witches, fortune tellers to pay income tax; Syracuse.com, 2011/1/6][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/witches-curse-as-romania-spells-out-plans-to-tackle-false-predictions-1.567995&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.syracuse.com/have-you-heard/2011/01/curses_romanias_witches_forced.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23632" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7777" RevisionGUID="7c212a9b-037e-41dd-a174-586e75eeadc1" CreationDate="2020-12-16T05:31:38.030" UserId="2892" Text="Why is purple the color that protects from witches' curse?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23633" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7777" RevisionGUID="7c212a9b-037e-41dd-a174-586e75eeadc1" CreationDate="2020-12-16T05:31:38.030" UserId="2892" Text="|european-folklore|witchcraft|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23634" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7778" RevisionGUID="3f7a38c8-f079-40f8-a05a-a86feebdbb37" CreationDate="2020-12-16T05:38:23.833" UserId="2892" Text="I was watching a show on Romanian witchcraft where they specifically talked about using a lot of blood b/c that's what you use to pay the devil, and that all Romanians have a little of the devil in them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What I'm really asking here is:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Does the [pharmakos (scapegoat)][1] principle work here in terms of transferring the sin, such that the witch does not cede their own soul when paying the devil for magic with blood?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is the use of magic, the casting the spell itself, &quot;karmaless&quot; (to use an Eastern term), and does the function of the spell to harm or heal affect this?  How do love charms fit into that good/evil dynamic?  ([Tristan &amp; Isolde][2] as an example of a tragic ending preceded by true romantic love.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmakos&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan_and_Iseult" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23635" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7778" RevisionGUID="3f7a38c8-f079-40f8-a05a-a86feebdbb37" CreationDate="2020-12-16T05:38:23.833" UserId="2892" Text="Is it safe to &quot;pay the devil with blood&quot; for the power to cast a given spell or curse?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23636" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7778" RevisionGUID="3f7a38c8-f079-40f8-a05a-a86feebdbb37" CreationDate="2020-12-16T05:38:23.833" UserId="2892" Text="|european-folklore|witchcraft|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23637" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7779" RevisionGUID="c33e7dbe-66bc-41e1-9ed1-96bb6a7dcfc6" CreationDate="2020-12-16T12:27:06.107" UserId="5511" Text="Romanian witchcraft is (not surprisingly given the religiosity of the country) rooted in Christianity, which in its turn copied the principles of a blood sacrifice and scapegoating from Judaism. Christianity and Judaism are strongly influenced by principles of blood magic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Middle Eastern ancient religions quite often demanded bloodshed to mollify the gods. Crimes against humanity were punishable by death, so naturally sins against the gods demanded something be killed to make things better. Judaism is no exception. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Genesis 4, Cain and Abel are the first human beings to offer God offerings. God prefers Abel’s offering of dead animal parts with favor but looks on Cain’s offerings of vegetable matter not-so-favorably. From that supposed first blood offering stem dozens of blood offerings and the scapegoat principle found in the OT, including human sacrifice. The most extensive accounts of child sacrifice in the Hebrew Bible refer to those carried out in Gehenna by two kings of Judah, Ahaz and Manasseh of Judah.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Christianity simply altered the process to make it less barbaric and more easily adaptable: one single human (scapegoat) sacrifice covered all sins in perpetuity…so long as you continue to observe the ceremonial meal which in effect reenacts the sacrifice every time you perform it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's mainly Paul who constructed this reinterpretation of an ancient notion. Paul had already taken circumcision, the central identity marker of the Jewish faith, and had declared that true circumcision is a metaphorical removal of wickedness from the heart. There’s way less bloodshed, this way. Someone had also already reinterpreted the Passover meal to signify the bloody death of Jesus by Paul's time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Towards the end of the Middle Ages and the beginning of the early modern period (post-Reformation), belief in witchcraft became more popular and witches were seen as directly in league with the Devil. It is therefore not surprising that blood offerings turn up the period's Christianized versions of witchcraft. It is the price paid for warding off the demonic &quot;soul price' that Christianity associated with magic. This is a direct parallel with the crucifixion, during which the Nazarene was also said to be tempted by the devil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The soul of course being a concept that is very different in the original pagan thought. The animistic aspects of Pagan theology assert that all things have a soul - not just humans or organic life - so this bond is held with mountains and rivers as well as trees and wild animals.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23638" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7780" RevisionGUID="52192fb1-a353-4a81-b12e-e7a92c0cab08" CreationDate="2020-12-17T10:15:36.417" UserId="5511" Text="This study should answer your question:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The wizards of the violet flame. A magical mystery tour of Romanian politics][1] - Journal for the Study of Religions and Ideologies &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It presents the manifestations of irrational practices in recent Romanian politics. Providing a short history of the mystical and the occult in Romanian politics, this research uses as a case study the alleged use of the occult &quot;violet flame&quot; in the presidential campaign of 2009. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By showing how public religiousness and the daily mystical practices are changing, the author is describing the transformations of the national political communication under the pressure of the news media, which are becoming more and more pervasive to the occult discourses and the magical thinking. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The author describes these transformations as part of the general transformations of the political imaginary in Romania. The Romanian public psyche belongs more and more to the culture of infotainment, a culture based on cultivating superficiality, where mystical and simplistic thinking have replaced the traditional processes of public exchange of reasonable ideas. Thus a main trait of this video-pathology in which the Romanian media is engulfed, is the substitution of the rational discourses with the superficial understanding of the world and supernatural explanations about the universe. One of the conclusions is that the manifestations and functions of the irrational in the Romanian political sphere have become more innocuously connected with a deep mysticism already in place, and are profoundly changing the society as a whole.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/291709799_The_wizards_of_the_violet_flame_A_magical_mystery_tour_of_Romanian_politics" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23639" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7781" RevisionGUID="2e450441-1587-44b9-9ae0-72b51827b466" CreationDate="2020-12-17T20:30:04.693" UserId="5827" Text="Most sources seem to suggest there were humans, but no fire. Were humans and titans on the same plane of existence? Did monsters roam the world? Which titans and gods existed at this point?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who was in power in those times in each realm? Was the Underworld a place you could physically get to?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23640" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7781" RevisionGUID="2e450441-1587-44b9-9ae0-72b51827b466" CreationDate="2020-12-17T20:30:04.693" UserId="5827" Text="What was the consensus on what the world was like around the time of the Titanomachy?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23641" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7781" RevisionGUID="2e450441-1587-44b9-9ae0-72b51827b466" CreationDate="2020-12-17T20:30:04.693" UserId="5827" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23642" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7782" RevisionGUID="c018fd05-2962-44a3-b786-63f0426abd77" CreationDate="2020-12-19T04:23:28.867" UserDisplayName="user5268" Text="According to [this passage from a website][1], it's stated that the Irish war-god and *Tuatha Dé Danann*'s first ruler Nuada Airgetlám was sometimes accompanied by a pack of dogs whose licks are said to have healing powers:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;In ancient Irish mythology, there are numerous references to dogs&#xD;&#xA;&gt; suggesting that dogs held a special place in the early Celtic culture&#xD;&#xA;&gt; there. The god Nuada, known for his healing powers, had a pack of dogs&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to help him. The dogs were also magical and could heal people by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; licking their wounds.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nothing I've found so far suggests that Nuada was accompanied by these dogs, expect for repeated mentions of his British counterpart Nodens, who was a hunting god that was symbolised by dogs and a throwaway line from [this translation][2] of the *Dindshenchas'* third volume that makes mention of a *Cú Núadat* (*Gaeilge* for *&quot;Nuada's Hound&quot;*), suggesting that Nuada had something of a dog motiff attached to him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Dénum aile, is mebair lemm,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; rochúala cách co coitchenn;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cú Núadat, ba mór maise,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; robáite ‘sin chrúad-glaise.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is this an singular objective answer to this question?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.petyak.com/dogs/general/articles/dogs-in-mythology/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://storyarchaeology.com/revisiting-sinann-in-the-metrical-dindshenchas/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23643" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7782" RevisionGUID="c018fd05-2962-44a3-b786-63f0426abd77" CreationDate="2020-12-19T04:23:28.867" UserDisplayName="user5268" Text="Was Nuada Airgetlám accompanied by dogs?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23644" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7782" RevisionGUID="c018fd05-2962-44a3-b786-63f0426abd77" CreationDate="2020-12-19T04:23:28.867" UserDisplayName="user5268" Text="|myth-identification|celtic|irish|god-items|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23645" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7783" RevisionGUID="b279ae87-a975-4820-98a1-b695199de2e1" CreationDate="2020-12-19T08:30:59.947" UserId="7520" Text="I read this story and thought about it for many years, and always try to figure out how Gilgamesh with 2/3 God. With his genealogy being a mortal man and mother a goddess. And after much. The only way I could figure out that he was 2/3 God, is that his father was a demigod, either the son of shamash or the son of Adad and his mother the goddess was full blood God and was the daughter of either shamash or Adad. And in this way one of Gilgamesh parents his mother would be 100% God and his father would be 50% God and in Gilgamesh that would make him roughly two-thirds." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23647" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="7735" RevisionGUID="43f77b8e-4baf-48fa-953a-9412ee0f115c" CreationDate="2020-12-19T10:05:45.493" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23650" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7783" RevisionGUID="867ddefc-dad6-415a-aabc-547254b57259" CreationDate="2020-12-20T11:56:42.227" UserId="5726" Comment="Merged with secondary answer which is a follow up, flagging other one for deletion" Text="I read this story and thought about it for many years, and always try to figure out how Gilgamesh with 2/3 God. With his genealogy being a mortal man and mother a goddess. And after much. The only way I could figure out that he was 2/3 God, is that his father was a demigod, either the son of shamash or the son of Adad and his mother the goddess was full blood God and was the daughter of either shamash or Adad. And in this way one of Gilgamesh parents his mother would be 100% God and his father would be 50% God and in Gilgamesh that would make him roughly two-thirds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And the last and maybe not the most known or common way of making him 2/3 God, it is through genetics like how people who want kids today go pick their partners and the DNA is manipulated to create boys and girls or specific eye colors and things like that. And do these things happen many thousands of years ago if you read the Lost Books of enki and you read the way they described the process in creating humans that we see today, I would explain but it's a in-depth and in detail process and it would take mini paragraphs. But pretty much they were mixing certain Siemens an incubating women's eggs in clay vessels and then putting the eggs and goddesses to carry them. But with this process they explain it is very possible to create a precise genetic specimen. So the first answer is one that may be very well correct and if it isn't that it is this way as explained in this answer." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23651" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1831" RevisionGUID="5cc9e9e4-d45b-4b5d-b9f7-6fd097a34741" CreationDate="2020-12-20T21:03:50.333" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23652" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7785" RevisionGUID="7c40e671-da16-41d3-b44a-e214ad4aba7f" CreationDate="2020-12-21T04:07:52.197" UserId="3078" Text="[This answer][1] claims that the etymology of the name of Greek goddess Demeter is &quot;mother of Da&quot; and the etymology of Poseidon is &quot;husband of Da&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;Who is Da then?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;PS. I seems to be a variant of γῆ?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://linguistics.stackexchange.com/a/11202/624" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23653" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7785" RevisionGUID="7c40e671-da16-41d3-b44a-e214ad4aba7f" CreationDate="2020-12-21T04:07:52.197" UserId="3078" Text="What Greek or IE god or goddess was named &quot;Da&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23654" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7785" RevisionGUID="7c40e671-da16-41d3-b44a-e214ad4aba7f" CreationDate="2020-12-21T04:07:52.197" UserId="3078" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23655" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5512" RevisionGUID="6b1e20c4-79b8-4456-b88d-a7ce36710f2e" CreationDate="2020-12-21T08:06:25.633" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23656" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7786" RevisionGUID="4be7b8e3-fa91-4c27-885d-a71c99189d71" CreationDate="2020-12-21T09:35:14.010" UserId="5511" Text="I think this is a translation issue, but without the original verse it's impossible to verify.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; δα– intens. Prefix, = ζα-, as in δάσκιος, δαφοινός.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;δάσκιος ον, (&lt; δα, σκιά) thick-shaded, bushy, ὕλη Od. 5.470, B. 10.93, etc. ; ὄρη E. Ba. 218 ; γενειάς A. Pers. 316, S. Tr. 13.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;δαφοινός όν (ή, όν Opp. C. 3.440 ; δαφοινή as etym. of δάφνη in Corn. ND 32), epith. of savage animals&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;in the 2 examples δα is a prefix that elevates the following word to its superlative. So likely in the verse referred to in the other answer it's &quot;Great Mother&quot; (Doric: Δαμάτηρ Dāmā́tēr), not &quot;Mother of da&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23657" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1959" RevisionGUID="39b4c2af-1099-4f06-9fbe-bd776321e3f2" CreationDate="2020-12-21T12:05:50.530" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23658" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="7744" RevisionGUID="1c0f9b9c-7888-4f9d-bb59-8b0dc85e52b8" CreationDate="2020-12-22T11:06:50.620" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23663" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6214" RevisionGUID="d53c69c3-7b38-475f-8d48-049e5f0b8eb7" CreationDate="2020-12-26T10:03:35.527" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23664" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="7749" RevisionGUID="33b6af67-2195-44f3-a143-d7c8bdd47a90" CreationDate="2020-12-26T17:03:25.400" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23665" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7788" RevisionGUID="f7cdd344-125d-4a1f-9663-51881da7c2b4" CreationDate="2020-12-26T21:12:38.087" UserId="7535" Text="We know the stories of Narasimha (man with lion head), Rama and Krishna.&#xA;&#xA;I am seeking answers for how other incarnations of lord Vishnu was ended." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23666" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7788" RevisionGUID="f7cdd344-125d-4a1f-9663-51881da7c2b4" CreationDate="2020-12-26T21:12:38.087" UserId="7535" Text="How did dasavataras end?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23667" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7788" RevisionGUID="f7cdd344-125d-4a1f-9663-51881da7c2b4" CreationDate="2020-12-26T21:12:38.087" UserId="7535" Text="|comparative|hindu|nautical-mythology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23668" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7789" RevisionGUID="a5cf480d-de9e-4688-941e-83209449481d" CreationDate="2020-12-27T08:15:03.547" UserId="5511" Text="The Bhagavata Purana gives an alternate list, wherein it numerically lists out 22 Vishnu avatars in chapter 1.3&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Four Kumaras (Catursana): the four Sons of god Brahma and exemplified the path of devotion &#xD;&#xA; - Varaha: The divine warthog who lifts earth from cosmic waters &#xD;&#xA; - Narada: the divine-sage who travels the worlds as a devotee of Vishnu &#xD;&#xA; - Nara-Narayana: the twin-sages&#xD;&#xA; - Kapila: a renowned sage spoken of in the Mahabharata, son of Kardama Muni and Devahuti and sometimes identified with the founder of the Samkhya school of philosophy &#xD;&#xA; - Dattatreya: the combined avatar of the Hindu trinity Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. He was born to the sage Atri became a great seer himself &#xD;&#xA; - Yajna: the lord of fire-sacrifice, who was also a previous &#xD;&#xA; - Indra : the lord of heaven &#xD;&#xA; - Rishabha: the father of Bharata Chakravartin and Bahubali &#xD;&#xA; - Prithu: the sovereign-king who milked the earth as a cow to get the world's grain and vegetation and also invented agriculture &#xD;&#xA; - Matsya: A narwhal who guided Manu's ark during the pralaya (deluge) and also killed demon Hayagriva&#xD;&#xA; - Kurma: A giant tortoise who balances Mount Mandara atop his carapace during the churning of cosmic ocean of milk &#xD;&#xA; - Dhanvantari: the father of Ayurvedic medicine and a physician to the Devas &#xD;&#xA; - Mohini: the enchantress &#xD;&#xA; - Narasimha: The man-lion who kills demon Hiranyakashpu&#xD;&#xA; - Vamana: The dwarf-brahmana who takes the three worlds from Bali Maharaj and purifies Him &#xD;&#xA; - Parashurama: The Brahmin warrior with an axe who kills Kartyavira Arjuna and his Kshatriya allies &#xD;&#xA; - Sri Rama: 'Perfect King' from Suryavansha, Subject of Ramayana &#xD;&#xA; - Vyasa: the compiler of the scriptures – Vedas and writer of the scriptures (Puranas) and the epic Mahabharata &#xD;&#xA; - Balarama: Elder brother of Krishna. &#xD;&#xA; - Krishna: Subject of the Mahabharata and the Bhagavad Geethai &#xD;&#xA;- Garuda: Garuda purana &#xD;&#xA; - Kalki: The Divine Lawgiver&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Avatars like Hayagriva, Hamsa and Garuda are also mentioned in the Pancharatra making the total of thirty-nine avatars.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, despite these lists, the commonly accepted number of ten avatars for Vishnu was fixed well before the 10th century CE.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Madhvacharya also regards Gautama Buddha as an avatar of Vishnu." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23669" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6224" RevisionGUID="bd984cb3-f349-423b-9eec-a73b55cb3d30" CreationDate="2020-12-27T20:01:55.150" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23670" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7788" RevisionGUID="e42b1afc-3237-4aa5-b1d2-bf1e8b739225" CreationDate="2020-12-28T14:01:22.903" UserId="7535" Comment="added 324 characters in body" Text="We know the stories of Narasimha (man with lion head), Rama and Krishna.&#xA;&#xA;I am seeking answers for how other incarnations of lord Vishnu was ended.&#xA;&#xA;Let’s take an example of incarnation ended.&#xA;1. Lord Krishna incarnation ended because of Hunter.&#xA;2. Lord Parashuram incarnation ended after he met Lord Rama.&#xA;&#xA;Thinking in the same way, there must be some point where all other incarnations will reach back to Lord Vishnu right? I was interested knowing about those details." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23671" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="7761" RevisionGUID="3fd58ca0-f25e-4459-a3d7-cbd277b64b48" CreationDate="2020-12-30T09:00:10.053" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23672" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7751" RevisionGUID="1347dcdc-6b78-439b-80cc-4b972f4be2c4" CreationDate="2020-12-30T13:10:14.780" UserId="4601" Comment="Spelling and syntax" Text="I’m trying to create a character based on a powerful and immortal god, but I kind of want a mouse to represent that as it would fit into my story of how the character is portrayed. I was thinking of just doing *Alice in Wonderland*, but she’s very timid and harmless so she isn’t exactly the character in the book. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23673" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="7751" RevisionGUID="1347dcdc-6b78-439b-80cc-4b972f4be2c4" CreationDate="2020-12-30T13:10:14.780" UserId="4601" Comment="Spelling and syntax" Text="Mythologies or folktales regarding dormouse/mouse?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23674" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="7751" RevisionGUID="1347dcdc-6b78-439b-80cc-4b972f4be2c4" CreationDate="2020-12-30T13:10:14.780" Comment="Proposed by 4601 approved by 2682, 5726 edit id of 1852" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23675" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7790" RevisionGUID="0952cba9-b60b-486f-aa84-0fc525661b69" CreationDate="2020-12-30T19:09:18.870" UserId="742" Text="Is there any historical documentation about witches using windows for divination?&#xD;&#xA;I have seen some rabbinic scholars (like [Alshich][1], [Albo][2], [Abarbanel][3], and [Saba][4]) ntrepret the Biblical passages concerning Sisersa's mother looking through a window (Judges 5:28) and Abimelekh looking through a window (Gen. 26:8) as referring to them divining by way of an enchanted window.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have heard of divining via a &quot;mirror on the wall&quot; (ala Snow White, see [here][5]), so I'm specifically looking for ancient sources or mentions of a similar practice using a window.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshe_Alshich&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Albo&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Abarbanel&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Saba&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Mirror_(Snow_White)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23676" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7790" RevisionGUID="0952cba9-b60b-486f-aa84-0fc525661b69" CreationDate="2020-12-30T19:09:18.870" UserId="742" Text="Is there any historical documentation about witches using windows for divination?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23677" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7790" RevisionGUID="0952cba9-b60b-486f-aa84-0fc525661b69" CreationDate="2020-12-30T19:09:18.870" UserId="742" Text="|history|bible|magic|witchcraft|objects|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23678" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7791" RevisionGUID="103a01e4-1b9f-4a9e-b7bd-50fbbfd11106" CreationDate="2020-12-30T20:17:27.487" UserId="6920" Text="[The Wedding of the Mouse][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have linked to an Indian version of it, but there are many variants (not all featuring mice), wherein a quest for what is the most powerful has each being in turn claim that another is more powerful, ending with a mouse being most powerful because it can create holes in the last. (Or a woodcutter because he can chop down a tree.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.talesofpanchatantra.com/the-wedding-of-the-mouse" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23679" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7792" RevisionGUID="17f89a6c-3554-47ae-8cef-a4786d2fe0a6" CreationDate="2020-12-30T23:11:18.017" UserId="57" Text="This is a loading screen hint from the game [Assasin's Creed Odyssey](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassin's_Creed_Odyssey): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gods bless you. A sneeze at a key moment was seen as an omen in ancient Greece. Since it was involuntary, the action was viewed as a sign from the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is this correct?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23680" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7792" RevisionGUID="17f89a6c-3554-47ae-8cef-a4786d2fe0a6" CreationDate="2020-12-30T23:11:18.017" UserId="57" Text="Was a sneeze seen as an omen in ancient Greece?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23681" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7792" RevisionGUID="17f89a6c-3554-47ae-8cef-a4786d2fe0a6" CreationDate="2020-12-30T23:11:18.017" UserId="57" Text="|greek|superstition|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23682" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7793" RevisionGUID="2449b03a-ec48-4215-8dca-48ff1424a93f" CreationDate="2020-12-30T23:34:15.480" UserId="5726" Text="I was about to go to sleep but couldn't resist so I will tidy up my answer later. But maybe this points you in the right direction&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From Xenophon's Anabasis:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **As he was saying this a man sneezed,1** and when the soldiers heard it,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they all with one impulse made obeisance to the god; and Xenophon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; said, “I move, gentlemen, since at the moment when we were talking&#xD;&#xA;&gt; about deliverance an omen from Zeus the Saviour was revealed to us,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that we make a vow to sacrifice to that god thank-offerings for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; deliverance as soon as we reach a friendly land; and that we add a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; further vow to make sacrifices, to the extent of our ability, to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; other gods also. All who are in favour of this motion,” he said, “will&#xD;&#xA;&gt; raise their hands.” And every man in the assembly raised his hand.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thereupon they made their vows and struck up the paean. These&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ceremonies duly performed, Xenophon began again with these words:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **1 The sneeze was a lucky sign, and particularly lucky because it came&#xD;&#xA;&gt; at just the time when Xenophon was uttering the word σωτηρίας,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “deliverance.”**&lt;sub&gt;[Xenophon. Anabasis. Book 3, chapter 2, paragraph&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 9. from Perseus][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From Homer's Odyssey&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **So she spoke, and Telemachus sneezed loudly**, and all the room round about echoed wondrously. And Penelope laughed, and straightway&#xD;&#xA;&gt; spoke to Eumaeus winged words: “Go, pray, call the stranger here&#xD;&#xA;&gt; before me. [545] Dost thou not note that my son has sneezed at all my&#xD;&#xA;&gt; words. Therefore shall utter death fall upon the wooers one and all,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; nor shall one of them escape death and the fates. And another thing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; will I tell thee, and do thou lay it to heart. If I find that he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; speaks all things truly,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Homer's Odyssey Book 17 pages 541-550 from Perseus][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0202%3Abook%3D3%3Achapter%3D2%3Asection%3D9&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D17%3Acard%3D505" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23683" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7794" RevisionGUID="c341f266-3f3f-427d-a117-870bac6ba763" CreationDate="2020-12-31T20:56:48.913" UserId="7555" Text="1.  Be careful not to rely upon translations which need not be word for word accurate.&#xD;&#xA;2.  I always thought it was a Victorian British error to call Apollo a god of the sun not an original BC era phenomenon.  I am unaware of any example where Apollo is the sun god in a Greek text.&#xD;&#xA;3. Ovid *Met*. 1 might call the father of Phaeton &quot;Phoebus&quot; which is a nickname often associated with Apollo.  CHECK THE LATIN.  Not sure if &quot;Phoebus&quot; is also associated with Helios.  If yes that settles the matter against associating Apollo with the sun so early as 1 BC.  If no it is either a sign that Ovid knows a tradition to associate Apollo with the sun OR it is a modern convention to fit the meter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23684" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7795" RevisionGUID="86d63302-973e-40ab-a49a-22a94717322a" CreationDate="2020-12-31T22:50:54.903" UserId="7556" Text="I can't provide any sources. But i sort of remember when i have looked into this. It seemed there may have been a war of beliefs going on. To have greater foothold in Scadanavia... The creation story of adam and eve may have been adopted into norse religion from political powers wanting to christen the population. With Viking Kings conquering many christian countries and reigning as king's/leaders whom have become christian themselves. It does seem to me this is the most likely conclusion. Adam and Eve were introduced into Norse Mythology to make both religions more similar and enable the Norse to become Christian more easily. Who really knows for sure..." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23685" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6132" RevisionGUID="43830c14-759f-4265-aabf-1ae392dccf29" CreationDate="2020-12-31T23:48:00.303" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 90 characters in body" Text="I was thinking of a tattoo with Nordic influence, I found this picture and I love it, but I need to know what it says (if it says anything), information about the symbols (like Yggdrasil or the Crows of Odin) would be very appreciated. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/M4tu0.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23686" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6114" RevisionGUID="9c8d96a5-a8e4-4ee9-9796-95840a9f6838" CreationDate="2020-12-31T23:51:01.070" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 32 characters in body; edited title" Text="I'd like to know of other castration myths besides the one with Gea, Cronos and that poor guy Ouranos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I didn't find much with a quick Google search, and the only other case that comes to mind is Samson and Delilah, not really the same but...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there other tales in any mythology featuring castration or emasculation?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't need an exhaustive list, only one or two popular cases, maybe three if those abound." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23687" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="6114" RevisionGUID="9c8d96a5-a8e4-4ee9-9796-95840a9f6838" CreationDate="2020-12-31T23:51:01.070" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 32 characters in body; edited title" Text="Examples of castration myths besides Ouranos" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23691" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6045" RevisionGUID="5aa581d3-bfed-479f-b3d9-f4d5fb9c2593" CreationDate="2020-12-31T23:55:19.957" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 1 character in body; edited title" Text="Are there any folklore monsters or creatures which exist mainly, or specifically, to embody the feeling of regret as it haunts people? I have been unable to find anything myself, although my knowledge in the world of folklore and mythology is somewhat lacking." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23692" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="6045" RevisionGUID="5aa581d3-bfed-479f-b3d9-f4d5fb9c2593" CreationDate="2020-12-31T23:55:19.957" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 1 character in body; edited title" Text="Which folklore beasts/creatures are representative solely of regret?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23693" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6131" RevisionGUID="75642de1-9818-4694-a3c8-1546856fccca" CreationDate="2020-12-31T23:56:01.760" UserId="57" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="Look at the Greek goddess Oizys, she is the goddess of misery, grief and regret. Otherwise, the Algea were the personifications of sorrow in Greek mythology, daughters of the goddess of strife, Eris.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In African lore, we have the Tikoloshe or bogeyman as most western cultures adopt it. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23694" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6120" RevisionGUID="d8eb2a51-ed2a-4ed5-bb25-561289eb0573" CreationDate="2020-12-31T23:57:32.903" UserId="57" Comment="added 7 characters in body; edited tags" Text="There are so many different answers to the &quot;Who were Hades/Pluto and Persephone/Prosperina children?&quot; question that I'm not sure if they even had children together at all anymore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One person on a mythological website said Hades was sterile.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia has The Erinyes listed in the children category but the history linked to them counters that. Describing them as older than the Olympians. &#xD;&#xA;Then there are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Zagreus, who might be the actual son of Zeus when he may or may not have shifted into a snake and crawled into her cave bed when she was a virgin (before marrying Hades?).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Melinoë who might also be Zeus's child when he disguised himself as Hades and lay with Proserpina. Or, she might actually be Hades' because some said, &quot;Zeus and Hades are essentially two representations and different facets of the same god.&quot; So, she might really be his daughter with Persephone?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Macaria who seems to definitely have been Hades daughter but apparently no mother is mentioned.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Then there is Plutus (Ploutos), who seems to be Plutus (no apparent name change) regardless of Greek or Roman mythology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  Wikipedia says he is either Demeter's son with Iasion OR Pluto and Persephone (they also used his (Hades/Pluto) Roman name, with her Greek name together, which I also found odd and confusing. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Was Plutus the son of Pluto and Proserpina?**" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23695" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="6120" RevisionGUID="d8eb2a51-ed2a-4ed5-bb25-561289eb0573" CreationDate="2020-12-31T23:57:32.903" UserId="57" Comment="added 7 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|greek|roman|underworld|hades|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23696" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="6128" RevisionGUID="310d123a-785e-4a0d-9d0c-e24d1e6241ba" CreationDate="2020-12-31T23:59:18.397" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|origins|christmas|santa-claus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23697" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="48" RevisionGUID="50047b0c-686e-4743-a490-383a105474b4" CreationDate="2020-12-31T23:59:28.273" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|christmas|modern-influence|santa-claus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23698" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2185" RevisionGUID="07b50456-48ec-40ae-afff-d27fe85e15dc" CreationDate="2020-12-31T23:59:34.353" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|origins|traditions|christmas|modern-influence|santa-claus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23700" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6149" RevisionGUID="349b5768-7531-4a0b-a10d-e40eddf3c46b" CreationDate="2021-01-01T00:10:52.897" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 35 characters in body; edited title" Text="It's been over twenty years when I was reading about the story of Narcissus.  I don't have any of my notes or references saved, but I distinctly remembered I read one or two stories mentioning Narcissus had a twin sister.  Can anyone tell me if this is true and if there is literature on this? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23701" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="6149" RevisionGUID="349b5768-7531-4a0b-a10d-e40eddf3c46b" CreationDate="2021-01-01T00:10:52.897" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 35 characters in body; edited title" Text="Did Narcissus have a twin sister?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23702" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6144" RevisionGUID="75c84d55-4b67-4c8c-8f14-4eef48917ca0" CreationDate="2021-01-01T00:11:59.837" UserId="57" Comment="added 4 characters in body; edited title" Text="In the Russian folk tale of “Ivan Sosnovich”, it says that the evil Koschei the Deathless put an **entire kingdom** to sleep (or petrified) via a spell after killing two of the three beauties he heard about and wounding the third. My question is: How big was the area of the spell exactly to grab ALL of the kingdom? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any type of real-life Russian kingdom to measure and compare to the one that Koschei cursed?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23703" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="6144" RevisionGUID="75c84d55-4b67-4c8c-8f14-4eef48917ca0" CreationDate="2021-01-01T00:11:59.837" UserId="57" Comment="added 4 characters in body; edited title" Text="What was the area of Koschei's sleeping/petrification spell?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23705" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7796" RevisionGUID="1d506871-f867-4e92-8eed-c082a7aafb6c" CreationDate="2021-01-01T01:56:16.380" UserId="3078" Text="This is Rus in 1237. As you can see, it was quite partitioned.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ZMnTK.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/mxiOH.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23706" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6159" RevisionGUID="09603e28-7537-4c19-836f-b9de8a9d0127" CreationDate="2021-01-01T14:12:54.567" UserId="57" Comment="added 2 characters in body; edited title" Text="In the Estonian folklore Pisuhand, Kratt and Puuk are all household spirits who steal grain and milk for whomever’s house they dwell in. They are described as a goblin or dragon and are an old explanation for meteors seen in the sky. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are they all the same creature? And if so, why are there various different names and appearances for it?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23707" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="6159" RevisionGUID="09603e28-7537-4c19-836f-b9de8a9d0127" CreationDate="2021-01-01T14:12:54.567" UserId="57" Comment="added 2 characters in body; edited title" Text="Why are there different names and appearances for household spirits in Estonian folklore?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23709" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5754" RevisionGUID="8253baa4-dcb3-43e5-a175-557d01d6f286" CreationDate="2021-01-02T09:03:50.360" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23710" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7798" RevisionGUID="ebc00b93-befe-49d9-b731-69e6658296e7" CreationDate="2021-01-02T10:17:23.730" UserId="7013" Text="In Plato's *The Symposium*, Aristophanes tells the tale of the &quot;soulmate&quot;, which was the description of humans that had two pairs of arms and legs, one head with two faces upon it, and three genders which were male, female, and “Androgynous” (man-woman). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am writing a play and wish to make an allusion to these &quot;soulmates&quot; in their &quot;double&quot; form, prior to Zeus having cleaved them apart into our present human anatomy, but I can't seem to find the name (or a name) given to them so that a character can say the name of this imaginary human-form, and make an allusion to Plato's story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any input would be greatly appreciated.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Blessings." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23711" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7798" RevisionGUID="ebc00b93-befe-49d9-b731-69e6658296e7" CreationDate="2021-01-02T10:17:23.730" UserId="7013" Text="Name for the &quot;soul-mates&quot; in Plato's &quot;The Symposium&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23712" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7798" RevisionGUID="ebc00b93-befe-49d9-b731-69e6658296e7" CreationDate="2021-01-02T10:17:23.730" UserId="7013" Text="|greek|names|plato|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23713" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7799" RevisionGUID="fc77c966-88bf-4a48-adaa-8cb6fcd6d676" CreationDate="2021-01-02T13:39:46.093" UserId="7562" Text="Are there any translations of 14 books of Enki? I only found synopsis of the tablets but can't find any full translations." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23714" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7799" RevisionGUID="fc77c966-88bf-4a48-adaa-8cb6fcd6d676" CreationDate="2021-01-02T13:39:46.093" UserId="7562" Text="Translation of Sumerian tablets" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23715" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7799" RevisionGUID="fc77c966-88bf-4a48-adaa-8cb6fcd6d676" CreationDate="2021-01-02T13:39:46.093" UserId="7562" Text="|sumerian|translation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23716" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4947" RevisionGUID="a8605e6c-9596-479f-a9ba-7770a1ebd1e1" CreationDate="2021-01-02T16:31:55.130" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 68 characters in body; edited title" Text="Does the idea of ice giants stem from glaciers? They are described as both evil and good and I thought that goes back to how glaciers can grow bigger and take your land, but also can become smaller and offer you land, because not only they give new space but the melted water also makes it so plants and so on can grow, like Ymir and his blood, kinda. But I'm not sure if that is a plausible theory, especially since I'm not familiar with the time frames of glacial periods. For this to work, I guess, the earliest Indogermanics would have had a lot of contacts with glaciers." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23717" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4947" RevisionGUID="a8605e6c-9596-479f-a9ba-7770a1ebd1e1" CreationDate="2021-01-02T16:31:55.130" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 68 characters in body; edited title" Text="What is the root of ice giants in Germanic mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23718" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4949" RevisionGUID="f44bf9fc-bc3d-49bf-8f5e-ec0073e638f1" CreationDate="2021-01-02T16:32:59.247" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 66 characters in body; edited title" Text="Why did the Germanics believe into Ragnarök? In Christian mythology, the revelation is basically there to fear the people from going against the Christian way and otherwise ending up in hell. But in Germanic mythology, I thought the idea of ascending to Valhalla goes back to the Viking Age because the Vikings wanted something to rival the Christian heaven. Before that there was only Hel, so you getting to the death world after death was considered as inevitable and you basically just prayed to not have bad luck while still living, for example by not being hunted by Wiedergänger, so what was the point of Ragnarök originally?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23719" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4949" RevisionGUID="f44bf9fc-bc3d-49bf-8f5e-ec0073e638f1" CreationDate="2021-01-02T16:32:59.247" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 66 characters in body; edited title" Text="What is the meaning of Ragnarök for the Germanic peoples?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23722" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7800" RevisionGUID="73075a48-2086-43f1-acb9-baef9d388b3a" CreationDate="2021-01-02T16:46:30.777" UserId="1317" Text="These &quot;14 tablets&quot; are entirely fictitious, an invention of conspiracy theorist  [Zecharia Sitchin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zecharia_Sitchin)  in his book _The Lost Book of ENKI_. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [Mythopedia](https://myths.fandom.com/wiki/14_tablets_of_Enki), which calls the book a &quot;novel&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt;The introduction suggests, but does not reveal, that the tablets of Enki were recovered among thousands of other tablets from a library in Nineveh....&#xD;&#xA;&gt;An attestation reveals the protagonist of the novel—a scribe identified as Endubsar, who writes and prepares fourteen tablets for Enki, &quot;Lord of Earth&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This Reddit post on r/conspiracy](https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/3ymzrs/current_location_of_the_14_tablets_of_enki/) sums it up:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Where previous works in the series could be described charitably as alternative history, _The Lost Book of Enki_ is a work of speculative fiction and it says so on the cover.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This book is a memoir from the point of view of Enki, here reimagined as an &quot;ancient astronaut&quot;. Although the book does quote actual ancient sources, they are only there to support the invented narrative. &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23723" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7800" RevisionGUID="105062f6-7c14-45b9-bcb3-e2846043ddbd" CreationDate="2021-01-02T16:52:57.193" UserId="1317" Comment="added 15 characters in body" Text="These &quot;14 tablets&quot; are entirely fictitious, an invention of conspiracy theorist  [Zecharia Sitchin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zecharia_Sitchin)  in his book _The Lost Book of ENKI_. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [Mythopedia](https://myths.fandom.com/wiki/14_tablets_of_Enki), which calls the book a &quot;novel&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt;The introduction suggests, but does not reveal, that the tablets of Enki were recovered among thousands of other tablets from a library in Nineveh....&#xD;&#xA;&gt;An attestation reveals the protagonist of the novel—a scribe identified as Endubsar, who writes and prepares fourteen tablets for Enki, &quot;Lord of Earth&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This Reddit post by SokarRostau on r/conspiracy](https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/3ymzrs/current_location_of_the_14_tablets_of_enki/) sums it up:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Where previous works in the series could be described charitably as alternative history, _The Lost Book of Enki_ is a work of speculative fiction and it says so on the cover.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This book is a memoir from the point of view of Enki, here reimagined as an &quot;ancient astronaut&quot;. Although the book does quote actual ancient sources, they are only there to support the invented narrative. &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23724" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7799" RevisionGUID="8f7605f0-cac6-4e61-b9f3-8dd38fb7a184" CreationDate="2021-01-02T17:25:41.237" UserId="57" Comment="added 15 characters in body; edited title" Text="Are there any translations of the 14 books of Enki? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have only found a synopsis of the tablets but can't find any full translations." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23725" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="7799" RevisionGUID="8f7605f0-cac6-4e61-b9f3-8dd38fb7a184" CreationDate="2021-01-02T17:25:41.237" UserId="57" Comment="added 15 characters in body; edited title" Text="Are there any translations of the 14 books of Enki?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23726" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7801" RevisionGUID="3591ce8c-2507-4c58-9faf-167db4ef099b" CreationDate="2021-01-02T17:54:03.310" UserId="57" Text="In Book 18 of the Iliad, Homer describes the Shield of Achilles. The second layer from the shield's centre features scenes from two cities. In the first city a wedding and a tribunal are taking place: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He wrought also two cities, fair to see and busy with the hum of men. In the one were weddings and wedding-feasts, and they were going about the city with brides whom they were escorting by torchlight from their chambers. Loud rose the cry of Hymen, and the youths danced to the music of flute and lyre, while the women stood each at her house door to see them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Meanwhile the people were gathered in assembly, for there was a quarrel, and two men were wrangling about the blood-money for a man who had been killed, the one saying before the people that he had paid damages in full, and the other that he had not been paid. Each was trying to make his own case good, and the people took sides, each man backing the side that he had taken; but the heralds kept them back, and the elders sate on their seats of stone in a solemn circle, holding the staves which the heralds had put into their hands. Then they rose and each in his turn gave judgement, and there were two talents laid down, to be given to him whose judgement should be deemed the fairest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second city is under siege: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; About the other city there lay encamped two hosts in gleaming armour, and they were divided whether to sack it, or to spare it and accept the half of what it contained. But the men of the city would not yet consent, and armed themselves for a surprise; their wives and little children kept guard upon the walls, and with them were the men who were past fighting through age; but the others sallied forth with Mars and Pallas Minerva at their head- both of them wrought in gold and clad in golden raiment, great and fair with their armour as befitting gods, while they that followed were smaller. When they reached the place where they would lay their ambush, it was on a riverbed to which live stock of all kinds would come from far and near to water; here, then, they lay concealed, clad in full armour. Some way off them there were two scouts who were on the look-out for the coming of sheep or cattle, which presently came, followed by two shepherds who were playing on their pipes, and had not so much as a thought of danger. When those who were in ambush saw this, they cut off the flocks and herds and killed the shepherds. Meanwhile the besiegers, when they heard much noise among the cattle as they sat in council, sprang to their horses, and made with all speed towards them; when they reached them they set battle in array by the banks of the river, and the hosts aimed their bronze-shod spears at one another. With them were Strife and Riot, and fell Fate who was dragging three men after her, one with a fresh wound, and the other unwounded, while the third was dead, and she was dragging him along by his heel: and her robe was bedrabbled in men's blood. They went in and out with one another and fought as though they were living people haling away one another's dead.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Iliad. By Homer. Translated by Samuel Butler&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the significance of these scenes? Do we know anything else about these cities?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23727" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7801" RevisionGUID="3591ce8c-2507-4c58-9faf-167db4ef099b" CreationDate="2021-01-02T17:54:03.310" UserId="57" Text="What is the significance of the two cities on the Shield of Achilles?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23728" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7801" RevisionGUID="3591ce8c-2507-4c58-9faf-167db4ef099b" CreationDate="2021-01-02T17:54:03.310" UserId="57" Text="|greek|trojan-war|iconography|achilles|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23729" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7801" RevisionGUID="9658cbb5-3a7a-43e3-839f-ed1f3003b1bb" CreationDate="2021-01-02T19:33:36.003" UserId="57" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="In Book 18 of the Iliad, Homer describes the Shield of Achilles. The second layer from the shield's centre features scenes from two cities. In the first city a wedding and a tribunal are taking place: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He wrought also two cities, fair to see and busy with the hum of men. In the one were weddings and wedding-feasts, and they were going about the city with brides whom they were escorting by torchlight from their chambers. Loud rose the cry of Hymen, and the youths danced to the music of flute and lyre, while the women stood each at her house door to see them.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Meanwhile the people were gathered in assembly, for there was a quarrel, and two men were wrangling about the blood-money for a man who had been killed, the one saying before the people that he had paid damages in full, and the other that he had not been paid. Each was trying to make his own case good, and the people took sides, each man backing the side that he had taken; but the heralds kept them back, and the elders sate on their seats of stone in a solemn circle, holding the staves which the heralds had put into their hands. Then they rose and each in his turn gave judgement, and there were two talents laid down, to be given to him whose judgement should be deemed the fairest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second city is under siege: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; About the other city there lay encamped two hosts in gleaming armour, and they were divided whether to sack it, or to spare it and accept the half of what it contained. But the men of the city would not yet consent, and armed themselves for a surprise; their wives and little children kept guard upon the walls, and with them were the men who were past fighting through age; but the others sallied forth with Mars and Pallas Minerva at their head- both of them wrought in gold and clad in golden raiment, great and fair with their armour as befitting gods, while they that followed were smaller. When they reached the place where they would lay their ambush, it was on a riverbed to which live stock of all kinds would come from far and near to water; here, then, they lay concealed, clad in full armour. Some way off them there were two scouts who were on the look-out for the coming of sheep or cattle, which presently came, followed by two shepherds who were playing on their pipes, and had not so much as a thought of danger. When those who were in ambush saw this, they cut off the flocks and herds and killed the shepherds. Meanwhile the besiegers, when they heard much noise among the cattle as they sat in council, sprang to their horses, and made with all speed towards them; when they reached them they set battle in array by the banks of the river, and the hosts aimed their bronze-shod spears at one another. With them were Strife and Riot, and fell Fate who was dragging three men after her, one with a fresh wound, and the other unwounded, while the third was dead, and she was dragging him along by his heel: and her robe was bedrabbled in men's blood. They went in and out with one another and fought as though they were living people haling away one another's dead.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Source: The Iliad. By Homer. Translated by Samuel Butler&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is the significance of these scenes? Do we know anything else about these cities?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23730" PostHistoryTypeId="52" PostId="7799" RevisionGUID="f399ea78-a638-4f72-baa2-c82d929810c8" CreationDate="2021-01-03T01:09:12.617" />
  <row Id="23733" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7802" RevisionGUID="550d87de-50ad-442d-bebd-496d50d2cdb8" CreationDate="2021-01-03T02:03:58.353" UserId="3341" Text="I first became interested in this topic when pondering Job 41:18 (KJV) - &quot;By his neesings [sneezings] a light doth shine,....&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When searching for 'nose quotes' there were some intriguing finds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. A nose that can see is worth two that sniff. Eugene Ionesco&#xD;&#xA;2. It is a golden maxim to cultivate the garden for the nose, and the eyes will take care of themselves. Robert Louis Stevenson&#xD;&#xA;3. An inch in a man's nose is much. H.G. Bohn&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;May the Bird of Paradise fly up your nose.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23734" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7803" RevisionGUID="e64deb8d-1736-40e6-9021-81fcf9befcd3" CreationDate="2021-01-03T03:05:04.153" UserId="4022" Text="Unfortunately, Aristophanes doesn't give any particular name for these pairs: he just calls them &quot;people&quot; or &quot;humans&quot; (ἀνθρώποι). He calls the half-man-half-woman one &quot;androgynous&quot; (ἀνδρόγυνος), but that's a common enough word nowadays that it wouldn't be a clear reference.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But later, he gives the origin of each gender:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ἦν δὲ διὰ ταῦτα τρία τὰ γένη καὶ τοιαῦτα, ὅτι τὸ μὲν ἄρρεν ἦν τοῦ ἡλίου τὴν ἀρχὴν ἔκγονον, τὸ δὲ θῆλυ τῆς γῆς, τὸ δὲ ἀμφοτέρων μετέχον τῆς σελήνης, ὅτι καὶ ἡ σελήνη ἀμφοτέρων μετέχει· περιφερῆ δὲ δὴ ἦν καὶ αὐτὰ καὶ ἡ πορεία αὐτῶν διὰ τὸ τοῖς γονεῦσιν ὅμοια εἶναι.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; _And this is why there were three genders, like I described: because males were, in the beginning, born from the sun, and females from the earth, and androgynes from the moon, because the moon is androgynous too. They were round, and moved in circles, just like their parents._&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Mythologically, Helios is male, Gaea is female, and Selene is both male and female according to some sources.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is probably the easiest part to reference: gay men descend from the sun/Helios, gay women from the earth/Gaea, and straight people from the moon/Selene. And originally they looked like little planets because of this parentage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He also calls them &quot;complete&quot; (whole, entire) at one point:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Τοῦτο γάρ ἐστι τὸ αἴτιον, ὅτι ἡ ἀρχαία φύσις ἡμῶν ἦν αὕτη καὶ ἦμεν **ὅλοι**· τοῦ ὅλου οὖν τῇ ἐπιθυμίᾳ καὶ διώξει ἔρως ὄνομα.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; _For this is the cause of it all: that our original nature was like that, and we were **complete**, and now the desire and the pursuit of that completeness is called &quot;love&quot;._&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But this is the closest he comes to giving a name to the original form of humanity." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23735" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7804" RevisionGUID="4f1ad4b3-2746-46fe-bee0-ace2f11f9d94" CreationDate="2021-01-03T03:27:03.427" UserId="5511" Text="The two cities depicted on the shield represent a city in Greece and Troy. One of the cities is filled with men dancing and singing and brides marching through the streets, while the other is circled by an army. This army has two plans which split their ranks: to share the riches which they have captured or plunder the city and capture more. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Turmoil surrounds each city. In one a quarrel breaks out and is brought to judgment. Surrounding the other, two armies fight along the river banks killing men and dragging off the dead. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both cities are tainted with death, and both house love. In the former two men quarrel over the blood price for a murdered kinsman and take their case to a judge to decide the outcome. In the latter, children and housewives stand guard as the men march out to war. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This scene is analogous to the Trojans leaving to fight the Achaeans between their shores and the city. As seen in line 625, ” …now hauling a dead man through the slaughter by the heels…”, Homer foreshadows Achilles victory over Hector and how Achilles humiliates him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The king’s estate is also portrayed on Achilles’ shield. Bountiful harvests of ripe grain are reaped and bound, and the king stands in silence rejoicing among the endless bundle of barley. An ox is being prepared for the harvest feast while the women fix the midday meal. The shield depicts happiness and prosperity for the king (who represented Agamemnon, the King of the Achaeans) again foreshadowing the Achaeans’ victory in their war with Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23736" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7805" RevisionGUID="87256a40-5e2a-405d-8357-e1141212931b" CreationDate="2021-01-03T03:59:29.190" UserId="4022" Text="The form _Gdan-Ma_ (conventionally taken to mean &quot;Earth Mother&quot;) is attested in Phrygian, so it's been suggested that Classical Greek _Gā/Gē_ and Mycenaean _Da_ are different ways of simplifying a Pre-Greek (so probably non-Indo-European) name that didn't fit perfectly into Greek phonology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other words, according to this theory, &quot;Da&quot; is an alternate name of Gaea, the earth personified." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23737" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6268" RevisionGUID="1c3f72f5-ae78-4913-b2bb-011c9ab67227" CreationDate="2021-01-03T13:15:59.667" UserId="57" Comment="added 22 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="According to Hindu Mythology, Vetalas are snake-like creatures. How are they similar to Medusa?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23738" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="6268" RevisionGUID="1c3f72f5-ae78-4913-b2bb-011c9ab67227" CreationDate="2021-01-03T13:15:59.667" UserId="57" Comment="added 22 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="How are Vetalas similar to Medusa?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23739" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="6268" RevisionGUID="1c3f72f5-ae78-4913-b2bb-011c9ab67227" CreationDate="2021-01-03T13:15:59.667" UserId="57" Comment="added 22 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|mythical-creatures|hindu|medusa|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23740" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6264" RevisionGUID="fcbf04e3-1467-4e7e-ba01-9e377ead8d26" CreationDate="2021-01-03T13:17:26.973" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body; edited tags" Text="In Abrahamic religions, there seem to be several versions of the giant sea beast that may (or not) carry the Earth on its back... I am trying to figure out what the original version of this myth is. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In some versions, the &quot;terrestrial&quot; behemoth carries the Earth and is itself carried by the &quot;aquatic&quot; Leviathan, and in others, the whale-like Bahamut carries the Earth directly. Sometimes leviathan is a flying serpent that doesn't carry anything.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is apparently also an Islamic version where Nun/Lutiaya is a whale that carries the Earth. I imagine Bahamut is a translation of behemoth and Lutiaya is a translation of Leviathan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do these myths derive from an older known tale?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23741" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="6264" RevisionGUID="fcbf04e3-1467-4e7e-ba01-9e377ead8d26" CreationDate="2021-01-03T13:17:26.973" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|abrahamic-religions|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23742" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6251" RevisionGUID="36f1b169-3699-41b4-bd9d-ccb3d6fe52ef" CreationDate="2021-01-03T13:18:47.007" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 20 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="I heard a myth when I was a child and I think it was about how a father had a prophecy that his son would die. He took it seriously and attempted to protect his son but in doing so his son died. Sort of like you cannot escape fate kind of direction. Does anyone know if this is an actual myth and what the people involved were?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23743" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="6251" RevisionGUID="36f1b169-3699-41b4-bd9d-ccb3d6fe52ef" CreationDate="2021-01-03T13:18:47.007" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 20 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Is there a Greek myth where a father tries to protect his son, but the son dies anyway?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23744" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="6251" RevisionGUID="36f1b169-3699-41b4-bd9d-ccb3d6fe52ef" CreationDate="2021-01-03T13:18:47.007" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 20 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|greek|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23745" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6245" RevisionGUID="6071d307-0339-4010-a68c-51624acd8cbb" CreationDate="2021-01-03T13:24:31.193" UserId="57" Comment="edited body; edited tags; edited title" Text="A member of my family gave me a scroll with a green and red Asian dragon. Is this particular dragon from a myth in Asia? Or does it have a symbolic meaning?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23746" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="6245" RevisionGUID="6071d307-0339-4010-a68c-51624acd8cbb" CreationDate="2021-01-03T13:24:31.193" UserId="57" Comment="edited body; edited tags; edited title" Text="What is the meaning of the green and red Asian dragons?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23747" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="6245" RevisionGUID="6071d307-0339-4010-a68c-51624acd8cbb" CreationDate="2021-01-03T13:24:31.193" UserId="57" Comment="edited body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|myth-identification|mythical-creatures|symbolism|dragons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23748" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6235" RevisionGUID="e62041e9-a3df-4a73-b554-fbcd44523775" CreationDate="2021-01-03T13:31:06.707" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 6 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="I've been trying to research the roles of the goddesses Adeona (or Adiona) and Abeona in Roman mythology, but am having great difficulty finding primary sources, such as the texts of Roman myths and literature. The closest I can find is an extract from St. Augustine's &quot;City of God&quot;, in which he is apparently referring to sections of Varro's *Antiquities*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; What need had women in childbirth to invoke Lucina, when, if Felicity should be&#xD;&#xA;present, they would have, not only a good delivery, but good children too? What need was there to commend the children to the goddess Ops when they were being born; to the god Vaticanus in their birth-cry; to the goddess Cunina when lying cradled; to the goddess Rumina when sucking; to the god Statilinus when standing; to the goddess Adeona when coming, to Abeona when going away; to the goddess Mens that they might have a good mind... (bk. IV, sec. 21)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If I understand correctly, Varro's original text is now lost, and Augustine's work may in some cases be the only remaining source of information on what it said. I certainly haven't been able to find any other primary sources (e.g. translations of Roman myths) as to the role of these two minor goddesses.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are various unsourced claims on the Internet (and even in scholarly papers) which seem to be based on different interpretations of the passage above. Adeona is variously claimed to be:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* The goddess of returning from somewhere.&#xD;&#xA;* The goddess of homecomings. (more specific than the above, as the return is to one's home.)&#xD;&#xA;* The goddess of safe return&#xD;&#xA;* Someone who presides over bringing children home safely, and who watches them as they travel to/from school.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And Abeona has been:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* The goddess of departures.&#xD;&#xA;* Someone who protected children during their first voyage away from their parents.&#xD;&#xA;* Someone concerned with children &quot;going out&quot; and &quot;coming in&quot; safely.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All of these are consistent with different readings of the Augustine text, in which different aspects of the things he describes them as doing are considered part of their core purpose.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What exactly is *known* about the roles of these two deities in the Roman pantheon? Have any of the relevant sections of Varro's *Antiquities*, or any other citable primary source, survived to this day?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23749" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="6235" RevisionGUID="e62041e9-a3df-4a73-b554-fbcd44523775" CreationDate="2021-01-03T13:31:06.707" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 6 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="What do we know about the Roman goddesses Adeona and Abeona?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23750" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="6235" RevisionGUID="e62041e9-a3df-4a73-b554-fbcd44523775" CreationDate="2021-01-03T13:31:06.707" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 6 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|roman|source-request|goddesses|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23751" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7806" RevisionGUID="43f1a175-6873-409d-818d-cd5a7169cc7f" CreationDate="2021-01-03T17:15:14.080" UserId="4022" Text="Unfortunately, Varro's _Antiquities_ is only known through references like this one. Searching for `#abeon` in the Packhum corpus (a collection of, theoretically, all surviving Latin literature before 200 CE) gives no results, and `#adeon` gives only false positives. So it seems no references to them survive from classical times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the best information we have on them is this snippet of Augustine, and the names themselves: _adeō_ in Latin means &quot;approach&quot;, and _abeō_ means &quot;go away from&quot;. So linguistically, they seem to be related to Coming and Going respectively." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23752" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7807" RevisionGUID="e6542af9-a6df-41a5-ade2-d860dc39d9ad" CreationDate="2021-01-03T20:09:23.183" UserId="7564" Text="Does anyone have any record of a story associated with the trivallate settlement complex on the Hill of Mael in Co. Westmeath, Ireland?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23753" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7807" RevisionGUID="e6542af9-a6df-41a5-ade2-d860dc39d9ad" CreationDate="2021-01-03T20:09:23.183" UserId="7564" Text="Hill of Mael, Co. Westmeath" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23754" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7807" RevisionGUID="e6542af9-a6df-41a5-ade2-d860dc39d9ad" CreationDate="2021-01-03T20:09:23.183" UserId="7564" Text="|folklore|irish|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23756" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7577" RevisionGUID="f0d30c5b-fedd-4637-9fdd-e70870ba12c1" CreationDate="2021-01-04T01:41:01.897" UserId="57" Comment="added 14 characters in body" Text="Greek:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Order and Justice: Zeus is the Lord of Order and Justice (Zeus Nomos &quot;Zeus the Lawgiver&quot;, Zeus Ktêsios &quot;Zeus Protector of Property&quot;, Zeus Horkios &quot;Zeus Watcher of Oaths&quot;, Zeus Kosmêtês &quot;Zeus the Orderer&quot;). The Horai were the daughters of Zeus and Themis (&quot;Moral Order&quot;). Of them Dike (&quot;Justice&quot;) was especially connected to Zeus. So, overall Zeus is the prime god of order and justice.&#xD;&#xA;- Wisdom: 'Metis' literally means &quot;wisdom&quot;. In myth, Zeus swallowed the Titaness Metis and birthed Athena from his head. Thus, Athena is metis incarnated through Zeus' mind. Hermes was the god of wisdom as cunning.&#xD;&#xA;Roman:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Jupiter and Minerva correspond exactly to Zeus and Athena.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Germanic:&#xD;&#xA;- Order and Justice: Tyr, who is a linguistic equivalent of Zeus, is the god of justice and oaths. He is the god of the 'Thing', which was the legal assembly.&#xD;&#xA;- Wisdom: Odin was the god of widom. The Romans equated him to Mercury/Hermes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Indian:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Order and Justice: Varuna and Mitra were the Lords of the 'Rta' or &quot;Cosmic Order&quot;. They also have clear parallels to Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;- Wisdom: Sarasvati is the goddess of wisdom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Outside of Indo-European myths you have the following.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Egyptian:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Order and Justice: Maat is the goddess of Order and Justice.&#xD;&#xA;- Wisdom: Thoth is the embodiment of wisdom and the husband of Maat.&#xD;&#xA;Mesopotamian:&#xD;&#xA;- Order and Justice: Utu-Shamash, the sun god, is the god of order and justice.&#xD;&#xA;- Wisdom: Nanna-Sin, the moon god, is the god of wisdom. Enki is a god of the kind of cunning intelligence, like Hermes." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23757" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6307" RevisionGUID="f076efbf-44bb-4ecf-922b-7b0b7410a3e1" CreationDate="2021-01-04T01:43:27.587" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 97 characters in body" Text="[Yama][1] is the god of death and justice in Hinduism which I found interesting.  [Forseti][2] is another god of justice in Norse mythology. [Toth][3] is the Egyptian god of wisdom. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yama_(Hinduism)#Brahma_Purana&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://norse-mythology.net/forseti-the-god-of-justice-in-norse-mythology/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.ancient.eu/Thoth/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23758" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="6300" RevisionGUID="1c63a3e9-320b-47f3-b041-b19b8be45e9a" CreationDate="2021-01-04T01:45:49.737" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|iconography|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23760" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="6312" RevisionGUID="7326e8bb-264c-4422-975c-a91d4cce3a21" CreationDate="2021-01-04T01:51:04.263" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23761" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6283" RevisionGUID="3c9fa365-9bf2-4faa-983a-c6e1f1e91521" CreationDate="2021-01-04T01:51:55.357" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 5 characters in body; edited title" Text="Did the goddesses in Norse mythology fight during Ragnarok? Everything I have read is about the gods fighting." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23762" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="6283" RevisionGUID="3c9fa365-9bf2-4faa-983a-c6e1f1e91521" CreationDate="2021-01-04T01:51:55.357" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 5 characters in body; edited title" Text="Did the Norse goddesses fight during Ragnarok?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23763" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7808" RevisionGUID="edc47825-b014-4b92-86c7-19319cf9e422" CreationDate="2021-01-04T04:20:58.840" UserId="7097" Text="Perhaps you're thinking of the opposite of &quot;*a father had a prophecy that his son would die*&quot;, in which case it is the story of Oedipus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- An oracle tells the king that his new son Oedipus will one day kill him.&#xD;&#xA;- To prevent this, he sends his son to be adopted by a king in a different country.&#xD;&#xA;- Years later, an oracle tells grown-up Oedipus that he will eventually kill his father.&#xD;&#xA;- To prevent this, not realizing that he was adopted, Oedipus flees to another country to be far away from the person he thinks is his father.&#xD;&#xA;- You can guess which country he goes to and what happens after he gets there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In both cases, the person's actions end up causing what they are trying to avoid, a situation that effectively defines Greek Tragedy." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23764" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5112" RevisionGUID="c4976644-90ae-4bf5-b3f0-72ec50b0cf07" CreationDate="2021-01-04T10:29:34.773" UserId="5726" Comment="spelling, formatting and clearer title" Text="I know that there’s a wide variety of zombies. Now my question is what are the versions of them &amp; how are they stopped from attacking the living? Zombies are (now these days) considered mindless undead with (rotting) flesh on them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For future reference I know that salt is one way of stopping zombies, I would like to know if there’s alternative ways to do so." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23765" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="5112" RevisionGUID="c4976644-90ae-4bf5-b3f0-72ec50b0cf07" CreationDate="2021-01-04T10:29:34.773" UserId="5726" Comment="spelling, formatting and clearer title" Text="Zombies and ways of stopping them?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23766" PostHistoryTypeId="12" PostId="7804" RevisionGUID="9f42a11c-8332-477e-84cb-8942b8412288" CreationDate="2021-01-04T15:23:30.870" UserId="57" Comment="via Vote" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;yannis&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="23767" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6173" RevisionGUID="a1971fcb-0fc1-4b97-94eb-33966ea5e18a" CreationDate="2021-01-04T17:07:00.840" UserId="6659" Comment="Took out opinion-based final paragraph " Text="I think the answer to your question is no. Folklore is created primarily for the ears of children and would consist of imagery relevant to the culture of the area. By culture I mean natural aspects, type of landscape, textiles created from available materials, manners of speaking and daily rituals. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First of all I don't see any close connection between the loric creatures you mention. Ogres, brownies and fairies are very different from each other. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Norway ogres turn to stone in sunlight and come alive in the dark. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Scotland Brownies sometimes do housework while the people are sleeping but will leave if you show any generosity to them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Ireland different fairies have different roles but are generally  benevolent towards humans unless natural surroundings are subject to devastation in which case they may cause harm as punishment.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23769" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7577" RevisionGUID="eef7346e-8e57-488a-8041-a1142d918043" CreationDate="2021-01-04T21:10:10.923" UserId="7163" Comment="Edited for separate &quot;Mesopotamian&quot; section after being pointed out by another member." Text="Greek:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Order and Justice: Zeus is the Lord of Order and Justice (Zeus Nomos &quot;Zeus the Lawgiver&quot;, Zeus Ktêsios &quot;Zeus Protector of Property&quot;, Zeus Horkios &quot;Zeus Watcher of Oaths&quot;, Zeus Kosmêtês &quot;Zeus the Orderer&quot;). The Horai were the daughters of Zeus and Themis (&quot;Moral Order&quot;). Of them Dike (&quot;Justice&quot;) was especially connected to Zeus. So, overall Zeus is the prime god of order and justice.&#xD;&#xA;- Wisdom: 'Metis' literally means &quot;wisdom&quot;. In myth, Zeus swallowed the Titaness Metis and birthed Athena from his head. Thus, Athena is metis incarnated through Zeus' mind. Hermes was the god of wisdom as cunning.&#xD;&#xA;Roman:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Jupiter and Minerva correspond exactly to Zeus and Athena.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Germanic:&#xD;&#xA;- Order and Justice: Tyr, who is a linguistic equivalent of Zeus, is the god of justice and oaths. He is the god of the 'Thing', which was the legal assembly.&#xD;&#xA;- Wisdom: Odin was the god of widom. The Romans equated him to Mercury/Hermes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Indian:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Order and Justice: Varuna and Mitra were the Lords of the 'Rta' or &quot;Cosmic Order&quot;. They also have clear parallels to Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;- Wisdom: Sarasvati is the goddess of wisdom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Outside of Indo-European myths you have the following.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Egyptian:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Order and Justice: Maat is the goddess of Order and Justice.&#xD;&#xA;- Wisdom: Thoth is the embodiment of wisdom and the husband of Maat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mesopotamian:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Order and Justice: Utu-Shamash, the sun god, is the god of order and justice.&#xD;&#xA;- Wisdom: Nanna-Sin, the moon god, is the god of wisdom. Enki is a god of the kind of cunning intelligence, like Hermes." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23770" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7809" RevisionGUID="60aa332d-fb8a-4a76-99aa-91a16128064c" CreationDate="2021-01-04T22:26:50.967" UserId="7163" Text="There is some controversy in Norse studies about whether the idea of Ragnarok originates in paganism or if it was the result of Christian influence on the Nords at that time. There is a good argument to be made that it goes back to Indo-European myth since the idea is found in Persian (Zoroastrian) myth well before the Christian Era (Frashokereti). Hinduism also has the Kali Yuga. Also related are the Greek ideas about the Ages of Man. The underlying idea may be that large periods of time (ages) follow the same cyclical pattern as day and night and summer and winter. Thus, the Fimbulwinter of Ragnarok was followed by the Spring of world renewal; or the dark night where the wolf devours the sun is followed by the new day where the daughter of the sun takes her mother's place.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the issue of Valhalla versus Hel, I think the idea of a paradise for the righteous dead is too widespread in Indo-European cultures to be the result of Christian influence. The Greeks had the Elysian Fields. The Celts had Tír na nÓg (Avalon). The Baltic peoples had Dausos. The Vedic Hindus had Svarga... Rather than Christianity influencing Indo-Europeans, it seems more likely that early Jewish Christians were influenced by Hellenistic Greeks since the Middle Eastern Jewish tradition only had the idea of 'Sheol', which was like Hel and Hades, before Christianity." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23771" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7810" RevisionGUID="f624a9fb-4d86-42ef-bfab-266c392331fa" CreationDate="2021-01-04T22:43:55.187" UserId="7163" Text="As far as my studies have found what you have found is all there is. The association is strictly based on the common understanding that Nuada is the post-christian Irish descendent of the Celtic god Nodens. Lugh and Cú Chulainn are the figures that are most associated with dogs in Irish myth. Their rise in prominence and might explain the lack of association with Nuada." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23772" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7811" RevisionGUID="d37154d4-24b4-4dd1-afa8-efec29562838" CreationDate="2021-01-04T23:04:09.260" UserId="57" Text="This is a loading screen hint from the video game [Assasin's Creed Odyssey](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassin's_Creed_Odyssey): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Belongs in a museum. In antiquity, the discovery of prehistoric bones were sometimes linked to mythological beings, such as the Titans, Centaurs, or Cyclopes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The idea seems entirely plausible, but do we have any actual evidence to support it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23773" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7811" RevisionGUID="d37154d4-24b4-4dd1-afa8-efec29562838" CreationDate="2021-01-04T23:04:09.260" UserId="57" Text="Were prehistoric fossils linked to mythological beings in ancient Greece?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23774" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7811" RevisionGUID="d37154d4-24b4-4dd1-afa8-efec29562838" CreationDate="2021-01-04T23:04:09.260" UserId="57" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23775" PostHistoryTypeId="12" PostId="6325" RevisionGUID="9ff3c7f5-7bfd-4cb7-9d76-88e3ea4e2c8e" CreationDate="2021-01-05T00:15:15.210" UserId="57" Comment="via Vote" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;yannis&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="23776" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7804" RevisionGUID="1ebdc1a8-294f-4960-8911-782bb7ef634b" CreationDate="2021-01-05T00:19:02.660" UserId="57" Comment="added 140 characters in body" Text="From [The Shield of Achilles: Symbol in Iliad][1]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The two cities depicted on the shield represent a city in Greece and Troy. One of the cities is filled with men dancing and singing and brides marching through the streets, while the other is circled by an army. This army has two plans which split their ranks: to share the riches which they have captured or plunder the city and capture more. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Turmoil surrounds each city. In one a quarrel breaks out and is brought to judgment. Surrounding the other, two armies fight along the river banks killing men and dragging off the dead. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Both cities are tainted with death, and both house love. In the former two men quarrel over the blood price for a murdered kinsman and take their case to a judge to decide the outcome. In the latter, children and housewives stand guard as the men march out to war. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This scene is analogous to the Trojans leaving to fight the Achaeans between their shores and the city. As seen in line 625, ” …now hauling a dead man through the slaughter by the heels…”, Homer foreshadows Achilles victory over Hector and how Achilles humiliates him.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The king’s estate is also portrayed on Achilles’ shield. Bountiful harvests of ripe grain are reaped and bound, and the king stands in silence rejoicing among the endless bundle of barley. An ox is being prepared for the harvest feast while the women fix the midday meal. The shield depicts happiness and prosperity for the king (who represented Agamemnon, the King of the Achaeans) again foreshadowing the Achaeans’ victory in their war with Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://schoolworkhelper.net/the-shield-of-achilles-symbol-in-iliad/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23777" PostHistoryTypeId="13" PostId="7804" RevisionGUID="e63a577d-e34e-4363-bc68-c9278668216d" CreationDate="2021-01-05T00:19:25.273" UserId="57" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;yannis&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="23778" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6325" RevisionGUID="04ca10be-579f-44a4-a4d7-39a61fbde7f2" CreationDate="2021-01-05T00:20:29.463" UserId="57" Comment="added 121 characters in body" Text="According to [Wikipedia][1]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aztec priests had a panentheistic view of religion but the popular Aztec religion maintained polytheism. Priests saw the different gods as aspects of the singular and transcendent unity of Teotl but the masses were allowed to practice polytheism without understanding the true, unified nature of their Aztec gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is not an exception in the evolution of polytheistic cultures. Judaism was originally polytheistic as well but evolved into monotheism, though many OT texts still echo polytheism. Arguably, the only surviving religion that regressed from monism into esoteric polytheism is Christianity, through the concept of the trinity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec_philosophy#Relation_to_Aztec_religion" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23779" PostHistoryTypeId="13" PostId="6325" RevisionGUID="56dadd74-435d-42fd-b063-74e90eaebeda" CreationDate="2021-01-05T00:20:35.063" UserId="57" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;yannis&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="23780" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="251" RevisionGUID="7e2b15b8-ac78-46bc-b92d-e9c904cfc567" CreationDate="2021-01-05T00:22:12.123" UserId="57" Comment="111" />
  <row Id="23784" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="6341" RevisionGUID="8b4172d9-b6b9-4fd9-bcbc-d7250e2afbbd" CreationDate="2021-01-05T00:27:40.420" UserId="57" Comment="112" />
  <row Id="23785" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="6340" RevisionGUID="85e76799-e26d-4a4d-b4f2-d2394bfc059c" CreationDate="2021-01-05T00:27:52.037" UserId="57" Comment="113" />
  <row Id="23789" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7813" RevisionGUID="aef2c7c1-3a13-44bb-a240-f2733a50c7ed" CreationDate="2021-01-05T14:53:12.277" UserId="7591" Text=" athena was the symbolism that women could do the same as men coming straight from zeus head in full battle armor she was the reason that the greek gods lived" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23793" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7813" RevisionGUID="543ffca0-4d94-4315-9aa9-39bc0e902adc" CreationDate="2021-01-05T21:10:51.883" UserId="57" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="Αthena was the symbolism that women could do the same as men coming straight from Ζeus head in full battle armour she was the reason that the Greek gods lived." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23794" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6386" RevisionGUID="b670ff2c-abd5-4fab-9cad-d8e085403e4b" CreationDate="2021-01-06T00:04:24.170" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 174 characters in body" Text="The Rape of Persephone as it was performed 24 000 years ago in Grotte Chauvet in five acts. This is a single panel at the furthest darkest end of the cave. It's read right to left:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![The Rape of Persephone from the End Chamber at Grotte Chauvet][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I feel like 'behest' might be too exuberant.  I read it more like, yeah sure, why not?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus, Hades, and Poseidon rolled dice for their share of the universe after defeating the Titans.  Hades got the short roll and ended up with the Underworld.  Later he feels like he got screwed.  He was, after all, the one who took out Cronus.  He sees Persephone and *Hubba Hubba* that would make life in the Underworld a little brighter! Zeus agrees so he will stop complaining.  That's my read, anyway.  Evelyn-White's Theogony is my go-to because he seems to catch the nuance and the details are unnervingly spot-on as though Hesiod wrote it from this panel or Evelyn-White added it in later. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[More][2]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/3m1ks.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://hcommons.org/members/glen216" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23795" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6357" RevisionGUID="031d5f64-7e98-4c1c-aab8-78b9fbd5c398" CreationDate="2021-01-06T00:06:03.250" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 92 characters in body; edited title" Text="I am working on my dissertation on An Táin Bó Culaigne. I (sadly) can't work from the Old Irish text but am relying on using translation to explore a point I am making about Early Irish society. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is this a valid mode of inquiry?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am reading some postcolonial theory on the unequivocal nature of translation and some mythology theory on myth as an ahistorical presence and am doubting my decision to work from two translated editions." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23796" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="6357" RevisionGUID="031d5f64-7e98-4c1c-aab8-78b9fbd5c398" CreationDate="2021-01-06T00:06:03.250" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 92 characters in body; edited title" Text="Is it sound to academically analyze myth in translation?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23797" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="6377" RevisionGUID="486e5f90-08de-460a-8f20-0fa3fb0c29f0" CreationDate="2021-01-06T00:07:40.260" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|comparative|mythohistory|paleontology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23798" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="7811" RevisionGUID="f12e867b-6d40-431c-bca3-d27d5137ebc0" CreationDate="2021-01-06T00:08:19.027" UserId="57" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|paleontology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23799" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6359" RevisionGUID="1c20636a-e65c-4d82-9c27-0450a4ecdb28" CreationDate="2021-01-06T00:11:04.373" UserId="57" Comment="added 1 character in body; edited title; edited tags" Text="I've seen that sometimes gods in Greek mythology have different names than the gods in Roman mythology. I've also seen that they are basically the same god just with a different name. What makes Greek and Roman so different that they split it up into two different mythology categories?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23800" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="6359" RevisionGUID="1c20636a-e65c-4d82-9c27-0450a4ecdb28" CreationDate="2021-01-06T00:11:04.373" UserId="57" Comment="added 1 character in body; edited title; edited tags" Text="What are the similarities and differences between Greek gods and Roman gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23801" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="6359" RevisionGUID="1c20636a-e65c-4d82-9c27-0450a4ecdb28" CreationDate="2021-01-06T00:11:04.373" UserId="57" Comment="added 1 character in body; edited title; edited tags" Text="|greek|comparative|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23802" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6388" RevisionGUID="122ac300-fc8d-4e09-b950-77d707fe1136" CreationDate="2021-01-06T00:13:52.707" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 12 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="I'm trying to find the translation to the Inuit story &quot;Mother of the Dog Children&quot;, viewable here -- http://www.inuitmyths.com/dogmother.htm&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any resources that may help translate this text are helpful! Or even if there's another source with this text at all." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23803" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="6388" RevisionGUID="122ac300-fc8d-4e09-b950-77d707fe1136" CreationDate="2021-01-06T00:13:52.707" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 12 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Is there an English translation of the Inuit story &quot;Mother of the Dog Children&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23804" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="6388" RevisionGUID="122ac300-fc8d-4e09-b950-77d707fe1136" CreationDate="2021-01-06T00:13:52.707" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 12 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|translation|inuit|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23805" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="251" RevisionGUID="7970b736-b9ac-464b-ac12-e13f5008fa32" CreationDate="2021-01-06T00:22:26.253" UserId="57" Comment="111" />
  <row Id="23806" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7815" RevisionGUID="12ca1639-440f-4392-8b87-46637fc7b40d" CreationDate="2021-01-06T12:52:21.500" UserId="5511" Text="Yes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Due to extensive travel, Greeks and Romans discovered fossils&#xD;&#xA;&gt; throughout the Mediterranean and into India (Mayor, 2000b, p. 8). The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fossils of dinosaurs, mastodons, mammoths and other creatures were&#xD;&#xA;&gt; pervasive parts of the natural landscape in the Greek and Roman&#xD;&#xA;&gt; periods, helping to account for why Greeks and Romans developed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mythologies about giant creatures as they sought to understand the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; presence of these remains&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See &quot;[Ancient Myths Inspired by Fossils][1]&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://blog.biodiversitylibrary.org/2015/10/ancient-myths-inspired-by-fossils.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23807" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7793" RevisionGUID="80169042-0698-45d3-aaf7-bbd41a80d1d4" CreationDate="2021-01-06T12:58:03.507" UserId="5726" Comment="Cleaned the answer up, added some extra info and reasoning and changed the formatting" Text="## Xenophon's Anabasis ## &#xD;&#xA;Reading Xenophon's Anabasis the sneeze of a soldier in his army while giving a speech was interpreted as a clear sign of the god(s), in this case the god in question was Zeus Soter as noted below.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  “The perjury and faithlessness of the barbarians has been spoken of by Cleanor and is understood, I imagine, by the rest of you. If, then, it is our desire to be again on terms of friendship with them, we must needs feel great despondency when we see the fate of our generals, who trustingly put themselves in their hands; but if our intention is to rely upon our arms, and not only to inflict punishment upon them for their past deeds, but henceforth to wage implacable war with them, **we have—the gods willing—many fair hopes of deliverance (σωτηρίας).”**&lt;sub&gt;[Xenophon. Anabasis. Book 3, chapter 2, paragraph&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 8. from Perseus][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**As he was saying this a man sneezed,1** and when the soldiers heard it,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they all with one impulse made obeisance to the god **2**; and Xenophon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; said, “I move, gentlemen, since **at the moment when we were talking&#xD;&#xA;&gt; about deliverance an omen from Zeus the Saviour was revealed to us**,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that we make a vow to sacrifice to that god thank-offerings for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; deliverance as soon as we reach a friendly land; and that we add a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; further vow to make sacrifices, to the extent of our ability, to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; other gods also. All who are in favour of this motion,” he said, “will&#xD;&#xA;&gt; raise their hands.” And every man in the assembly raised his hand.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thereupon they made their vows and struck up the paean. These&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ceremonies duly performed, Xenophon began again with these words:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Xenophon. Anabasis. Book 3, chapter 2, paragraph&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 9. from Perseus][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; **1** *The sneeze was a lucky sign, and particularly lucky because it came&#xD;&#xA; at just the time when Xenophon was uttering the word σωτηρίας,&#xD;&#xA; “deliverance.”*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**2** *Zeus Soter, who was presumed to have sent the omen.*&#xD;&#xA;## Homer's Odyssey ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Homer's Odyssey Penelope talks about the return of Odysseus when he will punish her suitors for the deeds they have done. while saying this Telemachus (who was born just before Odysseus was called to fight in the Trojan War.) sneezes loudly. Penelope interprets this sneeze as a sign and literally says that the fact that her son sneezed at all her words means none of the suitors will escape their fate when her husband comes home.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  But as for these men, let them make sport as they sit in the doorway or here in the house, since their hearts are merry. For their own possessions lie untouched in their homes, bread and sweet wine, and on these do their servants feed. But themselves throng our house day after day, [535] slaying our oxen, and sheep, and fat goats, and keep revel and drink the flaming wine recklessly, and havoc is made of all this wealth, for there is no man here such as Odysseus was to keep ruin from the house. But if Odysseus should come and return to his native land, [540] straightway would he with his son take vengeance on these men for their violent deeds.”**So she spoke, and Telemachus sneezed loudly**, and all the room round about echoed wondrously. And Penelope laughed, and straightway&#xD;&#xA;&gt; spoke to Eumaeus winged words: “Go, pray, call the stranger here&#xD;&#xA;&gt; before me. [545] **Dost thou not note that my son has sneezed at all my&#xD;&#xA;&gt; words. Therefore shall utter death fall upon the wooers one and all,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; nor shall one of them escape death and the fates.** And another thing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; will I tell thee, and do thou lay it to heart. If I find that he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; speaks all things truly,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Homer's Odyssey Book 17 pages 541-550 from Perseus][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Looking at both examples the sneeze is clearly seen as a sign from the god(s) and looked upon favorably. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0202%3Abook%3D3%3Achapter%3D2%3Asection%3D8&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0202%3Abook%3D3%3Achapter%3D2%3Asection%3D9&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D17%3Acard%3D505" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23808" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7816" RevisionGUID="74cf81e1-9def-4f16-b1a9-d1f2632317c3" CreationDate="2021-01-06T15:28:43.087" UserId="5726" Text="In Homer's Illiad, in the conflict between Athena and Ares, Athena puts on the cap and becomes completely invisible to Ares.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Pallas Athene grasped the lash and the reins, and against Ares first she speedily drave the single-hooved horses. He was stripping of his armour huge Periphas that was far the best of the Aetolians, the glorious son of Ochesius. Him was blood-stained Ares stripping; **but Athene [845] put on the cap of Hades, to the end that mighty Ares should not see her.** &lt;sub&gt;[Homers. Iliad. 5.835 from Perseus][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From other works the Greek gods became &quot;invisible&quot; by being surrounded by a mist or cloud.  This makes me think that the cap of Hades works in much the same way, and that by putting on the cap, Athena (for lack of a better word) doubles her invisibility and therefore becomes invisible to Ares while surrounded by mortals.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Since Ares could see Athena on the battlefield without the cap, using the cap was a tactical advantage over Ares' brutishness and in par with what we know of Athena.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Donning the cap made Athena invisible to Ares when he confronted her favored warrior Diomedes. Ares on foot strikes first at Diomedes, who remains in his chariot with the goddess invisible beside him, the spear is deflected and Diomedes with the divine help of Athena wounds Ares, prompting Ares to return to Mt. Olympus to lick his wounds (and whine to Zeus about it prompting Zeus to call him the most spiteful of the gods).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is noted in G. Kirk's 1985 The Iliad: A Commentary. Kirk notes : &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 844—5 The resumptive phrase τὸν μὲν “Ἄρης comes quickly, after only a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Single v. of contextual detail, but is forceful in its repetition of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the shocking ἐνάριζε and the Addition of μιαιφόνος, a standard epithet&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for the god but exemplified in drastic action here. It leads into&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Athene's unparalleled donning the cap of Hades, yet another of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; exotic details for which this book is famous. Unlike others, *ikhor*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for example, this has little to do with the special theme of wounding&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gods, and departs from the usual divine means of invisibility, namely&#xD;&#xA;&gt; covering with *cloud or mist*. **The cap of invisibility, a widely&#xD;&#xA;&gt; diffused folktale concept, is enshrined in the Perseus myth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Apollodorus 2.4.2)**. which is especially rich in folktale motifs and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; devices; but this is naturally its earliest testimony in a Greek&#xD;&#xA;&gt; context, followed by Aspis 227. Its description here obviously draws&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on the popular etymology of **Hades as ἀ-ξίδης the unseen one**; that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is emphasized by μή μιν ἴδοι and the repeated ὡς δὲ ἴδε of the next v.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Perhaps the cloud mechanism seemed too unwieldy for a divinity in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; motion** and with a mortal close beside her; moreover the idea of one&#xD;&#xA;&gt; deity joining a mortal in physical action against another highly&#xD;&#xA;&gt; untypical, one that might seem to call for untypical details in its&#xD;&#xA;&gt; description. &lt;sub&gt;[The Iliad : a commentary&#xD;&#xA;by Kirk, Geoffrey Stephen p.158][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Archive.org][2] has a readable version and I can recommend putting it on your reading list.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**From this we can be fairly certain that the cap confers complete invisibility, I think you are right in that Perseus was in a sort of bubble, in a way that he could still see himself and the items he was wearing while being invisible to others.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am aware I have not answered your question in full, but this started out as a comment and quickly turned into more, and might push you in the right direction. the chance I am completely wrong about this is always a possibility and I welcome commentary and feedback.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0012.tlg001.perseus-eng1:5.835-5.863&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://archive.org/details/iliadcommentaryv00kirk_769/page/n157/mode/2up?q=cap" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23809" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7817" RevisionGUID="5e3efb7f-9cba-4804-bd3e-1ef5f8cae6cd" CreationDate="2021-01-06T17:24:28.583" UserId="57" Text="Variations of this story appear to be very common in Africa and according to *African Mythology A to Z* no reason is usually given for the second messenger: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A common theme in many stories about the origin of death is the &quot;failed message.&quot; In the basic story, two creatures are sent to humans, the first with a message of life and the second with a message of death. Either the first message does not get delivered or the second message is delivered first and people accept it. No reason is usually given for the sending of the second messenger. It may only have been to introduce the factor of chance. Possibly the Creator had not made up his mind and decided to let the issue depend on which messenger arrived first. In one myth in which a reason is given, Ngai - the Supreme God of the Kikuyu of Kenya - changed his mind. The idea behind the message of life was not that humans would be exempt from death but that they would return to life after death.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Most often the creature that carried the message of life was a chameleon. The second creature was frequently a lizard. Other creatures include a toad, hare, salamander, and birds of different kinds. Osawa, the Supreme God of the Ekoi of Cameroon, sent a duck with the message of life and a frog with the message of death. When a dog was the messenger of life, it was usually distracted by food and overtaken by another animal that carried the message of death. In some myths, the message of death was delivered deliberately and maliciously, not simply because a faster animal overtook a slower-moving one. Frequently a lizard, out of spiteful mischief, changed the message.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Lynch, P. A., &amp; Roberts, J. (2010). African Mythology, A to Z. Penguin Random House.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23810" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7818" RevisionGUID="5bd0d8c3-d7af-4d2f-a80c-87a96da3fdcf" CreationDate="2021-01-06T20:50:23.060" UserId="6880" Text="One can perhaps approach it from a perspective of the history of science and think about how the people at the time would have understood the physics of seeing and light. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You ask the very good question: &quot;if the shield did become invisible because he was carrying it, how could he use it? Could he himself see it (and the reflection in it) even though it was invisible?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First let's think about it in modern physics, and then the physics that ancient Greeks may have known. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With our knowledge of modern physics, this is indeed a problem and essentially wouldn't work. If there is any physical effect that would make you invisible, it would imply that you also can't see anything. To be invisible, all light will have to go through you without interacting, just like neutrinos fly through the Earth without interacting with the matter much. But then you can't see anything because the retina in your eye also wouldn't interact with the light, in the same way as it is very hard to detect neutrinos even though space is flooded with them (you need enormous detectors with huge mass to get the occasional interaction).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The other option would be to redirect the light around you with some convincing mirror or hologram system. Again you would need some opening to be able to see out, which implies that the opponent can also see in, although in practice these eyeholes could be small so that you're very hard to spot.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the modern understanding of how seeing works (light from some source being reflected by objects and detected by the eyes) was developed much later by Alhazen in the Book of Optics around 1010-1020 AD. In classical antiquity, there were two main theories: the emission theory and the intromission theory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the emission theory, seeing works essentially like a modern radar device: The eye sends out some kind of beam which then get sent back by the object. In the intromission theory, some physical representation from the object floats off to the eye, perhaps a bit like a TV broadcast. This was all a bit vague and there many problems with it, and there wasn't any understanding of what light rays were; this was imagined as some kind of mechanical interaction where the object sends out something like a little copy of itself (to put it simply). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In these theories, a stealth cap can work and you can still see out from underneath. In the emissions theory, it would work in a similar way as the modern &quot;stealth&quot; aircraft which are invisible on a radar, because they absorb or scatter the enemy's radar beam so it doesn't go back to their detector. But still the stealth aircraft can send out its own radar beams without any problem. So, in the emissions theory, the &quot;eye beams&quot; from Medusa's eyes get scattered by the cap, but the &quot;eyes beams&quot; from Perseus can still get out and he can see anything. In the intromission theory, the stealth cap can simply stop anything underneath from broadcasting its images. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It would perhaps work like a jamming transmitter, so it wouldn't matter what the person wears and that the sword and shield are large, their emissions would all just be jammed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So if people tried to rationalise this, they may have argued along those lines. However, I would imagine that most people who wrote, retold or heard the stories, didn't really try to explain it in terms of the contemporary understanding of physics like today's science fiction fans do, and just accepted that this was some mythical device that worked in mysterious ways." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23811" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7819" RevisionGUID="7aa29514-08ef-4ca8-a157-870cda4bbfea" CreationDate="2021-01-06T20:52:41.343" UserId="5726" Text="## Κητος Τροιας, [The monster of Troy][1] ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In a glass case in the Boston Museum of Fine Arts, a strange creature&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lurks on an ancient Greek vase. This vase painting, made in the famous&#xD;&#xA;&gt; pottery center of Corinth in the sixth century B.C.E, is known to art&#xD;&#xA;&gt; historians as the oldest illustration of the story of the Monster of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Troy, a creature described in Homeric legends. But the animal on this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; particular vase troubles specialists in Greek art, because it does not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fit the typical monster image.&lt;sub&gt;[The First Fossil Hunters: Dinosaurs, Mammoths, and Myth in Greek and Roman Times Adrienne Mayor][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The tale of the monster of Troy was already old when Homer retold it in the 8th century B.C.E. In that legend, a fearsome monster suddenly appeared on the Trojan coast after a flood. *(which could have cleared the fossil from the soil)* It preyed on farmers near Sigeum. To appease the beast, the kings daughter Hesione was sent as a sacrifice, but before the sacrifice took place Hercules arrived and killed the monster.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The vase (pictured below) shows Hesione and Heracles confronting the monster; Hesione hurls rocks and Heracles shoots arrows at the monster. Hesione struck the monster 2 times in the mouth and under the eye, one of the arrows Hercules shot is lodged in the jaw of the monster.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Heracles rescued Princess Hesione of Troy from the Cetus (Sea-Monster). The hero plies the monster with a volley of arrows from his bow. The Cetus is depicted as a serpentine beast with a gaping maw and jagged teeth. This image is a montage of two photos of the vase. Source Theoi][3]][3] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you look at all the other figures on the vase you'll note that they are well rendered in sharp contrast to the crudely drawn white-headed monster.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![full image of the side of the vase][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  In his definitive 1987 article on sea monsters, art historian John&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Boardman singled out the poor artistic quality of this creatures&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shapeless, unworthy head gaping balefully from a rocky cave. Karl&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Schefold calls it *a hideous white Thing, painted by a naive artist&#xD;&#xA;&gt; deficient in creative imagination.* Vase scholars have assumed that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Monster of Troy should look like a typical sea monster even though&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Homeric legend described it as a land creature. Most scholars take&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the dark background behind the odd, disembodied head to be a sea cave,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; although in a careful study of the scene, vase specialist John Oakley&#xD;&#xA;&gt; observed that the head protrudes from a rocky cliff, and Schefold&#xD;&#xA;&gt; noted that it is stuck to the cliff like a gargoyle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Adrienne notes &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;This creature is certainly not a typical sea monster. Monsters of the deep were depicted by Greek artists as scaly serpents, lizards, or seahorse-like dragons with undulating bodies, ears, large staring eyes, a dorsal crest, and an upturned snout resembling that of a crocodile, shark, dog, or pig. But if we pay attention to the details and geography of the Homeric legend, and if we view this atypical Monster of Troy in its historical context, then its peculiar appearance begins to makes sense.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Right around the time the Spartans announced the discovery of the giant bones of Orestes in Tegea (560-540 B.C.E.)**1**. The painter of the vase would have lived in Corinth, a well know trade hub ,close to events in the Eastern Mediterranean. The vase shows the monster of Troy, which appeared at Sigeum on the Trojan coast. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; That same coast was the scene of another Homeric legend about a pair&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of monsters that emerged from the cliffs of a tiny island (Tenedos)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; across from Sigeum. And it was at Sigeum that the colossal bones of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Homeric heroes Ajax and Achilles suddenly appeared in the Roman&#xD;&#xA;&gt; era (reported by Pausanias **2** and Philostratus. The sediments&#xD;&#xA;&gt; around Sigeum contain rich fossil deposits that continually erode out&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the collapsing bluffs by the sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now after looking at the facts, instead of a badly drawn monster coming out of a cave we can note a monster poking out of a cliffside. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![close-up of The monster of Troy looking like a head sticking out of a cliffside][5]][5]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **The great size of the white head, its shape, and the anatomical features suggest that a large fossil skull eroding out of an outcrop&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was the model for this earliest illustration of the Monster of Troy.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Intrigued by this surprising possibility, I showed photographs of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Corinthian vase to several vertebrate paleontologists and asked them&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for their professional impressions.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The paleontologists immediately noticed realistic details missed by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; classical art scholars whose search image had led them to look for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; traditional artistic motifs instead of ancient natural knowledge.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **The paleontologists noted the jaw articulation, the hollow eye socket, the extended back of the skull, the forward-leaning teeth, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the natural detail of a broken-off premaxilla (upper jaw and nasal&#xD;&#xA;&gt; structures). They agreed that the general size and shape of the skull&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was consistent with that of a large Tertiary mammal emerging from an&#xD;&#xA;&gt; outcropping.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; But two nonmammalian features, the ring of bony plates around the eye&#xD;&#xA;&gt; socket and the mouthful of jagged teeth also caught the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; paleontologists attention. The numerous teeth and lack of molars&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reminded some of them of a reptile or toothed whale skull. Eocene&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whale skulls are exposed around the Mediterranean, and the skulls of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the giant Miocene giraffids, including Samotherium and Helladotherium,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; have large, forward-projecting teeth, which would be especially&#xD;&#xA;&gt; noticeable if the premaxilla were missing. Sclerotic eye rings are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; features of birds and dinosaur skulls, never mammals. Dinosaur remains&#xD;&#xA;&gt; are unlikely to have been observed around the Mediterranean, but the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ancient Greeks were certainly familiar with the skulls of living&#xD;&#xA;&gt; birds. And they may have encountered fossil skulls of giant ostriches&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in Tertiary and Quaternary deposits across Anatolia and Greece.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ostriches are remarkable for having the biggest eye sockets of any&#xD;&#xA;&gt; terrestrial vertebrate.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some references&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**1**&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  when the pythia had ordered the Spartans to search for the bones of Orestes, they were not able to find them. Further enquiry at Delphi&#xD;&#xA;&gt; brought the instruction to look at Tegea in Arkadia &quot;in a level place&#xD;&#xA;&gt; where two winds puff under mighty compulsion, blow is countered by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; blow, and woe lies on woe.&quot; There the son of Agamemnon was buried, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; if they were to carry off his bones, they would be superior to Tegea.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1 In due course the Spartan Lichas, having been told by a smith at&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tegea of large bones found by him in a coffin during the digging of a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; well, conjectured that they were the relics indicated by the Pythia,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the smithy being the place described in her oracle. Pretending to be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; an exile from Sparta, he came back to Tegea, hired the yard where the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; well had been dug and carried the bones off to Sparta ([Herodotus.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; book1 chapter 67 section 5 - chapter 68 section 6][6])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**2** &#xD;&#xA;&gt; As Pausanias relates this story (already centuries old in his day, about A.D. 150), some bones of heroic size were acclaimed as the remains of the mythic hero Pelops sometime before the Trojan War (ca. 1250 B.C.). The big bones were kept in a bronze chest at the Temple of Artemis at Olympia. Pelops shoulder blade reputed to have magical powers was apparently displayed in its own shrine. In myth, Pelops was Heracles great-grandfather and a founder of the Olympic Games. As a youth Pelops had been chopped up and served to the gods as a grotesque sacrifice. But as soon as the gods realized what they were eating, they restored Pelops to life. His shoulder, however, had already been been eaten, so the gods replaced it with one of ivory. And it was this ivory shoulder blade that was enshrined at Olympia. **Scholars have long tried to explain the mystery of Pelops ivory shoulder, comparing the sheen of ivory to radiant skin and so on. But if we take into account the great size of Pelops bone and its place of discovery, a more plausible explanation emerges.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The story of the huge shoulder bone made of ivory and stored at Olympia suggests that prehistoric remains from Arcadia contributed to the myth of the great eponymous hero of the Peloponnese. **Olympia is on the Alpheios River: the surrounding valleys contain dense concentrations of the bones of large Pleistocene mammals, including mammoths.** Shoulder blades and thigh bones are large, durable, and easily recognized mammal bones and they convey an immediate sense of a creature size. These two bones each had a special meaning in ancient Greek rituals, according to Walter Burkert, a scholar of Greek religion. The shoulder blade in particular played a prominent role in sacrifices and in foretelling the future. An impressive mammoth scapula would certainly stand out in a fossil bone assemblage, and its dimensions would match the ancient search image for mythical heroes who towered over present-day men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Very old bone strongly resembles ivory, especially when polished, says Kenneth Lapatin, an authority on ivory in antiquity. If people of early antiquity found a semifossilized shoulder blade that looked human but dwarfed a man, it easy to imagine that they might burnish it to bring out an ivorine quality and might revere the bone as that of their mighty hero Pelops. Once polished and displayed, the bone would inevitably accrue stories to explain its special appearance and origins. And the stories would in turn make the relic that much more valuable, worthy of special treatment. Burkert and Lapatin findings thus help us to explain how a huge ivory shoulder blade came to be incorporated into the myth of Pelops, and why such a relic would have deserved its own shrine.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pausanias Noted the huge bone of a sea-monster:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  From here is a way to a sanctuary of Asclepius. On passing into the enclosure you see on the left a building with two rooms. In the outer room lies a figure of Sleep, of which nothing remains now except the head. The inner room is given over to the Carnean Apollo; into it none may enter except the priests. **In the portico lies a huge bone of a sea-monster, and after it an image of the Dream-god and Sleep, surnamed Epidotes （Bountiful）, lulling to sleep a lion.** Within the sanctuary on either side of the entrance is an image, on the one hand Pan seated, on the other Artemis standing. &lt;sub&gt;[Pausanias, Description of Greece book 2 chapter 10][7]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now a huge bone may mean several things but the fact he mentions a sea-monster indicates it was clearly huge and certainly not human. unfortunately I cannot say with certainty that it is a fossil but I think it deserves an honorable mention.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;**most of this information comes from [The First Fossil Hunters: Dinosaurs, Mammoths, and Myth in Greek and Roman Times][2] by [Adrienne Mayor][8]**&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.theoi.com/Ther/KetosTroias.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691150130/the-first-fossil-hunters&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/SUFoB.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/XvnVo.png&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/i8omz.png&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D67%3Asection%3D5&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0160:book=2:chapter=10&amp;highlight=bone&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrienne_Mayor" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23812" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7816" RevisionGUID="3e440d08-645d-4ad3-b6ba-c010085451b3" CreationDate="2021-01-06T21:01:30.463" UserId="5726" Comment="deleted 267 characters in body" Text="In Homer's Illiad, in the conflict between Athena and Ares, Athena puts on the cap and becomes completely invisible to Ares.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Pallas Athene grasped the lash and the reins, and against Ares first she speedily drave the single-hooved horses. He was stripping of his armour huge Periphas that was far the best of the Aetolians, the glorious son of Ochesius. Him was blood-stained Ares stripping; **but Athene [845] put on the cap of Hades, to the end that mighty Ares should not see her.** &lt;sub&gt;[Homers. Iliad. 5.835 from Perseus][1]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From other works the Greek gods became &quot;invisible&quot; by being surrounded by a mist or cloud.  This makes me think that the cap of Hades works in much the same way, and that by putting on the cap, Athena (for lack of a better word) doubles her invisibility and therefore becomes invisible to Ares while surrounded by mortals.&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Since Ares could see Athena on the battlefield without the cap, using the cap was a tactical advantage over Ares' brutishness and in par with what we know of Athena.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Donning the cap made Athena invisible to Ares when he confronted her favored warrior Diomedes. Ares on foot strikes first at Diomedes, who remains in his chariot with the goddess invisible beside him, the spear is deflected and Diomedes with the divine help of Athena wounds Ares, prompting Ares to return to Mt. Olympus to lick his wounds (and whine to Zeus about it prompting Zeus to call him the most spiteful of the gods).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is noted in G. Kirk's 1985 The Iliad: A Commentary. Kirk notes : &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 844—5 The resumptive phrase τὸν μὲν “Ἄρης comes quickly, after only a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Single v. of contextual detail, but is forceful in its repetition of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the shocking ἐνάριζε and the Addition of μιαιφόνος, a standard epithet&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for the god but exemplified in drastic action here. It leads into&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Athene's unparalleled donning the cap of Hades, yet another of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; exotic details for which this book is famous. Unlike others, *ikhor*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for example, this has little to do with the special theme of wounding&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gods, and departs from the usual divine means of invisibility, namely&#xD;&#xA;&gt; covering with *cloud or mist*. **The cap of invisibility, a widely&#xD;&#xA;&gt; diffused folktale concept, is enshrined in the Perseus myth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Apollodorus 2.4.2)**. which is especially rich in folktale motifs and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; devices; but this is naturally its earliest testimony in a Greek&#xD;&#xA;&gt; context, followed by Aspis 227. Its description here obviously draws&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on the popular etymology of **Hades as ἀ-ξίδης the unseen one**; that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is emphasized by μή μιν ἴδοι and the repeated ὡς δὲ ἴδε of the next v.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Perhaps the cloud mechanism seemed too unwieldy for a divinity in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; motion** and with a mortal close beside her; moreover the idea of one&#xD;&#xA;&gt; deity joining a mortal in physical action against another highly&#xD;&#xA;&gt; untypical, one that might seem to call for untypical details in its&#xD;&#xA;&gt; description. &lt;sub&gt;[The Iliad : a commentary&#xD;&#xA;by Kirk, Geoffrey Stephen p.158][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Archive.org][2] has a readable version and I can recommend putting it on your reading list.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**From this we can be fairly certain that the cap confers complete invisibility, I think you are right in that Perseus was in a sort of bubble, in a way that he could still see himself and the items he was wearing while being invisible to others.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0012.tlg001.perseus-eng1:5.835-5.863&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://archive.org/details/iliadcommentaryv00kirk_769/page/n157/mode/2up?q=cap" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23814" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="6404" RevisionGUID="7c8480f6-6cd0-4030-9490-0e1b0b65a380" CreationDate="2021-01-07T09:48:08.943" UserId="57" Comment="102" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;yannis&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="23815" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7820" RevisionGUID="b5b076e1-0c90-4288-8bd6-5a37bb359d82" CreationDate="2021-01-07T13:51:49.407" UserId="57" Text="Tengri, the chief deity of the Turkic pantheon, created Er Kishi to serve as his companion: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Turkic mythology, Tengri is a pure, white goose that flies constantly over an endless expanse of water, which represents time. Beneath this water, Ak Ana (&quot;White Mother&quot;) calls out to him saying &quot;Create&quot;. To overcome his loneliness, Tengri creates Er Kishi, who is not as pure or as white as Tengri and together they set up the world. Er Kishi becomes a demonic character and strives to mislead people and draw them into its darkness. Tengri assumes the name Tengri Ülgen and withdraws into Heaven from which he tries to provide people with guidance through sacred animals that he sends among them. The Ak Tengris occupy the fifth level of Heaven. Shaman priests who want to reach Tengri Ülgen never get further than this level, where they convey their wishes to the divine guides. Returns to earth or to the human level take place in a goose-shaped vessel.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Wikipedia contributors. (2020, December 14). Tengri. In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 13:46, January 7, 2021, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tengri&amp;oldid=994196124&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's a [poetic adaptation of the Turkish Creation Story][1] by Eugene Doty you may find interesting.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://larryavisbrown.com/turkish-creation-myth/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23816" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4653" RevisionGUID="4a0b51a4-4d1c-4e86-b947-426eb20d48d6" CreationDate="2021-01-07T13:52:57.140" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body; edited title" Text="Are there any myths about him? I can't find much about him besides the fact that he became a demonic god at some point." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23817" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="4653" RevisionGUID="4a0b51a4-4d1c-4e86-b947-426eb20d48d6" CreationDate="2021-01-07T13:52:57.140" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body; edited title" Text="Who is Er Kishi in Mongol mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23818" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7821" RevisionGUID="f77e344c-ac86-42ce-a0ac-b042282835ed" CreationDate="2021-01-07T14:25:11.137" UserId="6438" Text="Hello my question is about free will in greek mythology how do we explain that fate is also a thing while they also have free will?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23819" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7821" RevisionGUID="f77e344c-ac86-42ce-a0ac-b042282835ed" CreationDate="2021-01-07T14:25:11.137" UserId="6438" Text="Did free will actually excist in greek mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23820" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7821" RevisionGUID="f77e344c-ac86-42ce-a0ac-b042282835ed" CreationDate="2021-01-07T14:25:11.137" UserId="6438" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23821" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7821" RevisionGUID="e4888afe-6c4d-451e-b6bf-5e72c766c107" CreationDate="2021-01-07T15:33:52.440" UserId="5726" Comment="typo and capitalization " Text="My question is about free will in Greek mythology. How do we explain that fate is also a thing while they also have free will?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23822" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="7821" RevisionGUID="e4888afe-6c4d-451e-b6bf-5e72c766c107" CreationDate="2021-01-07T15:33:52.440" UserId="5726" Comment="typo and capitalization " Text="Did free will actually exist in Greek mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23823" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7822" RevisionGUID="06b22e17-bfbe-4834-b840-56f8bbc8528c" CreationDate="2021-01-07T21:02:53.070" UserId="197" Text="I heard a rumor that there was an ancient Greek myth about a human swallowed by a whale (or other large sea monster) and living to tell the tale, similar to the Biblical story of Jonas the prophet.  I was surprised because I hadn't heard of such a myth yet, and it's one that would have surely stuck in my mind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some searching on the internet lead me to a short section in a book that claims Herakles had this adventure.  The book is [ed. Louis Jonker, Douglas Lawrie, *Fishing for Jonah (anew): Various approaches to Biblical interpretation*, chapter 4.2.5 by Louis Jonker, (2015) published SUN PReSS, a division of AFRICAN SUN MeDIA, Stellenbosch.  Link to p. 41 on Google Books.][b]  ([References section][br])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The ancient Greeks narrated the story of Heracles who fought a sea monster, but was devoured in the process. After three days and three nights he managed to free himself fighting his way out. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I couldn't find anything more definitive than this and a few other short mentions.  Have you heard of such an ancient Greek myth?  Can you give a source that tells me more specifically about it, rather than the Old Testament story?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[b]: https://books.google.hu/books?id=dlgyAwAAQBAJ&amp;lpg=PA41&amp;pg=PA41&#xD;&#xA;[br]: https://books.google.hu/books?id=dlgyAwAAQBAJ&amp;lpg=PP256&amp;pg=PA256" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23824" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7822" RevisionGUID="06b22e17-bfbe-4834-b840-56f8bbc8528c" CreationDate="2021-01-07T21:02:53.070" UserId="197" Text="Has Herakles been swallowed by a whale?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23825" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7822" RevisionGUID="06b22e17-bfbe-4834-b840-56f8bbc8528c" CreationDate="2021-01-07T21:02:53.070" UserId="197" Text="|greek|hercules|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23826" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7800" RevisionGUID="b1fedd96-eec9-4090-b03d-962bcd0a4670" CreationDate="2021-01-08T00:53:15.763" UserId="1317" Comment="Better flow plus Youtube link" Text="These &quot;14 tablets&quot; are entirely fictitious, an invention of conspiracy theorist  [Zecharia Sitchin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zecharia_Sitchin)  in his book _The Lost Book of ENKI_. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [Mythopedia](https://myths.fandom.com/wiki/14_tablets_of_Enki), which calls the book a &quot;novel&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt;The introduction suggests, but does not reveal, that the tablets of Enki were recovered among thousands of other tablets from a library in Nineveh....&#xD;&#xA;&gt;An attestation reveals the protagonist of the novel—a scribe identified as Endubsar, who writes and prepares fourteen tablets for Enki, &quot;Lord of Earth&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This book is a memoir from the point of view of Enki, here reimagined as an &quot;ancient astronaut&quot;. Although the book does quote actual ancient sources, they are only there to support the invented narrative. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This Youtube video](https://youtu.be/lacT--YmV7U) explains how Sitchin was not a professional Assyriologist, but an enthusiast who taught himself Sumerian, and made fundamental translation errors to support his theories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This Reddit post by SokarRostau on r/conspiracy](https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/3ymzrs/current_location_of_the_14_tablets_of_enki/) sums it up:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Where previous works in the series could be described charitably as alternative history, _The Lost Book of Enki_ is a work of speculative fiction and it says so on the cover.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23827" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7823" RevisionGUID="48df35df-6e8c-4ea4-9fe5-502fb50e4fc5" CreationDate="2021-01-08T08:48:57.170" UserId="5511" Text="The answer really depends on to which interpretation of free will you subscribe. I will greatly oversimplify the various philosophical interpretations of free will here into two camps:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**[Compatibilism][1]** is the belief that free will and determinism are mutually compatible and that it is possible to believe in both without being logically inconsistent. The oldest Greek school of philosophy that proposed this belief is [stoicism][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**[Incompatibilism][3]** is the view that a deterministic universe is completely at odds with the notion that persons have a free will; that there is a dichotomy between determinism and free will where philosophers must choose one or the other. In Ancient Greece, this would be more a religious view than a philosophy, i.e. our lives, to the tiniest detail, are written or spun by the [fates][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These two camps can be rendered into the following philosophical interpretations:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Hard determinism** (determinism + incompatibilism)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Deterministic compatibilism** (determinism + compatibilism)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **Indeterminism/metaphysical libertarianism** (indeterminism + incompatibilism)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both Hard Determinism and Deterministic compatibilism existed in some form in Greek philosophy or religion. If for example we look at [Oedipus][5], you can interpret the story with both of these perspectives. Indeterminism is more of a 20th-century philosophy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Oedipus is a tragic hero, who accidentally fulfilled a prophecy that he would end up killing his father and marrying his mother, thereby bringing disaster to his city and family.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Deterministic compatibilism would read this story as: yes, free will *and* fate (Lat. *fatum*, &quot;destiny&quot;, i.e. a form of &quot;divine determinism&quot;) can co-exist. Oedipus has free will, but despite all willed actions to avoid his fate, the gods play a cruel trick on him and his free will, though existing, is overruled by divine determinism (fate) in the end.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Hard Determinism interpretation would be: Oedipus only has the illusion of free will, circumstances (e.g. his environment &amp; character) created by the gods (pre)determine the limited range of illusionary free will choices.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism#:~:text=Compatibilism%20is%20the%20belief%20that,nothing%20to%20do%20with%20metaphysics.&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incompatibilism#:~:text=Incompatibilism%20is%20the%20view%20that,choose%20one%20or%20the%20other.&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moirai&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oedipus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23828" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7824" RevisionGUID="096675af-1810-4bc8-8ca7-0132148d4781" CreationDate="2021-01-08T09:34:51.830" UserId="5511" Text="The association of whales with the Jonah myth comes from the [Sepuagint][1], the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible. The original of Jonah 2:1 reads:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;the fish is rendered into Greek as *mega kētos* (μέγα κῆτος). To the Greeks, this meant any huge sea creature or sea monster. The word is also the root of the Latin *cetus*, and this is where the association with *whale* comes from. Cetus is also the root of the scientific nomenclature for whale species, [Cetacea][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are two myths regarding *kētos*: Perseus &amp; Andromeda and Heracles &amp; a variation on this story in the ninth work of Heracles, where he defeats a sea monster (not specifically a whale) to save Hesione. In Appolodorus 2.5.9, we read:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; διὰ τοῦτο Ἀπόλλων μὲν λοιμὸν ἔπεμψε, Ποσειδῶν δὲ **κῆτος** ἀναφερόμενον&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ὑπὸ πλημμυρίδος, ὃ τοὺς ἐν τῷ πεδίῳ συνήρπαζεν ἀνθρώπους. χρησμῶν δὲ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; λεγόντων ἀπαλλαγὴν ἔσεσθαι τῶν συμφορῶν, ἐὰν προθῇ Λαομέδων Ἡσιόνην&#xD;&#xA;&gt; τὴν θυγατέρα αὐτοῦ τῷ κήτει βοράν, οὗτος προύθηκε ταῖς πλησίον τῆς&#xD;&#xA;&gt; θαλάσσης πέτραις προσαρτήσας. ταύτην ἰδὼν ἐκκειμένην Ἡρακλῆς ὑπέσχετο&#xD;&#xA;&gt; σώσειν, εἰ τὰς ἵππους παρὰ Λαομέδοντος λήψεται ἃς Ζεὺς ποινὴν τῆς&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Γανυμήδους ἁρπαγῆς ἔδωκε. δώσειν δὲ Λαομέδοντος εἰπόντος, κτείνας τὸ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; κῆτος Ἡσιόνην ἔσωσε. μὴ βουλομένου δὲ τὸν μισθὸν ἀποδοῦναι, πολεμήσειν&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Τροίᾳ ἀπειλήσας ἀνήχθη.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 3 Therefore Apollo sent a pestilence, and Poseidon a **sea monster**,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which, carried up by a flood, snatched away the people of the plain.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But as oracles foretold deliverance from these calamities if Laomedon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; would expose his daughter Hesione to be devoured by the sea monster,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he exposed her by fastening her to the rocks near the sea.4 Seeing her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; exposed, Hercules promised to save her on condition of receiving from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Laomedon the mares which Zeus had given in compensation for the rape&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Ganymede.5 On Laomedon's saying that he would give them, Hercules&#xD;&#xA;&gt; killed the monster and saved Hesione. But when Laomedon would not give&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the stipulated reward,6 Hercules put to sea after threatening to make&#xD;&#xA;&gt; war on Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Following the association of ketos specifically to whales via the Latin denomination, this is probably what you're looking for, though Heracles was not swallowed by the creature according to the tale. In the original Greek of Apollodorus this refers to an undetermined sea monster, just like the Hebrew of Jonah refers to an undetermined big fish.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/QlvVN.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cetacea" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23834" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="6481" RevisionGUID="7d5b0090-18c7-4440-a5ac-1aff8e71b934" CreationDate="2021-01-10T12:24:05.393" UserId="57" Comment="114" />
  <row Id="23836" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6480" RevisionGUID="db1ac652-407d-42aa-86fd-ab9a300ffe38" CreationDate="2021-01-10T13:04:25.393" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23837" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="6341" RevisionGUID="cd1970a1-2f51-4bc4-855c-f87cefc170bf" CreationDate="2021-01-10T18:26:34.640" UserId="57" Comment="112" />
  <row Id="23838" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7825" RevisionGUID="9d30c7d7-0886-4f81-922a-f5dac0b0175a" CreationDate="2021-01-11T07:50:01.943" UserId="7095" Text="Out of interest of spreading information, I'm copying here [the answer][1] I wrote yesterday to this question on Judaism.SE, with a few alterations:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A possible answer:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Maimonides on the mishnah][2] states that this was done as part of worship of Baalim. The city of [Baalbek][3], which was originally a Baal center of worship, eventually became a center of Bacchus (Dionysus to the Greeks) worship. On this [Richard C. Steiner][4] wrote in the essay &quot;[On the Rise and Fall of Canaanite Religion at Baalbek: A Tale of Five Toponyms][5]&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Residual effects of the cult of Bacchus, with its wine-drinking rituals and competitions can perhaps be seen in a medieval descritption of Baalbek. In the introduction to his geographical treatise (tenth century C.E.), al-Muqaddasi writes: &quot;There are no greater drinkers of wine(s) than the people of Baalbek and Egypt.&quot;...It is hard to imagine a closer phonetic match than that between Ba'labakku and Ba'al-Bacchus...Since Hadad-Baal and Bacchus-Dionysus are both fertility gods portrayed (frequently) with bull horns, syncretism between Hadad-Baal and Bacchus-Dionysus is by no means unnatural. Indeed, Julius Wellhausen seems to have viewed this syncretism as self-evident, speaking of &quot;Baal-Dionysus&quot; and &quot;the Baal whom the Greeks identified with Dionysus.&quot;...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's possible that Maimonides was referring to this syncretism between the Baal of Baalbek and Bacchus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;About the [Bacchian Mysteries][6] worship, it says [here][7]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;A metrical lex sacra of a Bacchic association in Smyrna prohibits people from eating the heart and the meat of an animal that has not been sacrificed.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From here it sounds like that indeed the heart was removed prior to sacrificing the animal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A more detailed study of the text can be seen [here][8]. According to that study, there seems to have been a number of heart-related rituals. One may have been &quot;the heart seems to have been cut out of the victim separately, placed on the altar, and sprinkled with fat or blood&quot;. Another perhaps was &quot;a sacrifice of a ram and goat to Dionysos Zagreus, where the heart was not eaten, but taken away&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So it's possible that the mishnah was referring to a Bacchian or Dionysian ritual, which Maimonides related to Baalim, a later evolution/syncretism of that type of worship that was still known about circa Maimonides's time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://judaism.stackexchange.com/a/119469/20472&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Mishnah_Avodah_Zarah.2.3?lang=bi&amp;with=Rambam&amp;lang2=en&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baalbek&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_C._Steiner&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.jstor.org/stable/25610200?seq=1#?seq=1&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysian_Mysteries&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://oxfordre.com/classics/classics/abstract/10.1093/acrefore/9780199381135.001.0001/acrefore-9780199381135-e-8126?rskey=3PoJYe&amp;result=12&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~sgcole/cole/dionysos/Ionia/smyrna.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23839" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="7703" RevisionGUID="5c732299-3324-48f3-8028-45b3dbef4a42" CreationDate="2021-01-11T09:58:58.993" UserId="57" Comment="115" />
  <row Id="23840" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7826" RevisionGUID="4c393b4e-5454-4d73-8036-ddc071baa911" CreationDate="2021-01-11T16:14:13.150" UserId="7611" Text="I just want to know the similarites and differences between god and hero worship." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23841" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7826" RevisionGUID="4c393b4e-5454-4d73-8036-ddc071baa911" CreationDate="2021-01-11T16:14:13.150" UserId="7611" Text="To what extent was Greek worship of heroes identical to their worship of the gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23842" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7826" RevisionGUID="4c393b4e-5454-4d73-8036-ddc071baa911" CreationDate="2021-01-11T16:14:13.150" UserId="7611" Text="|greek|mythohistory|history|afterlife|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23843" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7827" RevisionGUID="f72dd783-95e4-4144-9a9d-82d255cb0e0b" CreationDate="2021-01-11T20:22:41.730" UserDisplayName="user7559" Text="I would like to refer to a contemporary version of the myth - [Percy Jackson &amp; the Olympians: The Lightning Thief][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where victims and all of their possessions are turned to stone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Secondly, consider the following link, with Latin version (translated to English using Google Chrome Translate extension): https://latin.packhum.org/author/959 - though I couldn't find any reference, maybe you'll find a reference to this particular aspect of your question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover, considering that Perseus used the head of Medusa to turn [Atlas into the Atlas Mountain][2], but this did not include the celestial heavens that Atlas was cursed to hold up for eternity - we might conclude that Medusa's stare could turn any creature, including Titans such as Atlas, to stone - including extremities and clothing and possessions, but that Medusa could not turn anything belonging to Zeus or Athena to stone - thus Atlas' celestial sphere became the [Atlas mountains][3].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPjZKKV37do&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_(mythology)#Encounter_with_Perseus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23844" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7827" RevisionGUID="83972799-7fc3-40a3-b1a3-28cc4273f324" CreationDate="2021-01-11T20:28:43.390" UserDisplayName="user7559" Comment="added 9 characters in body" Text="I would like to refer to a contemporary version of the myth - [Percy Jackson &amp; the Olympians: The Lightning Thief][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where victims and all of their possessions are turned to stone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Secondly, consider the following link, with Latin version (translated to English using Google Chrome Translate extension): https://latin.packhum.org/author/959 - though I couldn't find any reference, maybe you'll find a reference to this particular aspect of your question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover, considering that Perseus used the head of Medusa to turn [Atlas into the Atlas Mountain][2], but this did not include the celestial heavens that Atlas was cursed to hold up for eternity - we might conclude that Medusa's stare could turn any creature, including Titans such as Atlas, to stone - including extremities and clothing and possessions, but that Medusa could not turn anything belonging to Zeus or Athena to entombed stone, since Zeus and Athena could not be turned into stone by Medusa - thus Atlas' celestial sphere became the [Atlas mountains][3].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPjZKKV37do&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_(mythology)#Encounter_with_Perseus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23845" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="6481" RevisionGUID="40908899-7a34-4656-a7d7-d7d9d5702698" CreationDate="2021-01-11T21:05:56.343" UserId="57" Comment="114" />
  <row Id="23846" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7827" RevisionGUID="99788cef-3a2e-4e41-bfbd-f1abfa4a9ec4" CreationDate="2021-01-11T21:21:39.870" UserDisplayName="user7559" Comment="Clarify." Text="I would like to refer to a contemporary version of the myth - [Percy Jackson &amp; the Olympians: The Lightning Thief][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where victims and all of their possessions are turned to stone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Secondly, consider the following link, with Latin version (translated to English using Google Chrome Translate extension): https://latin.packhum.org/author/959 - though I couldn't find any reference, maybe you'll find a reference to this particular aspect of your question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover, considering that Perseus used the head of Medusa to turn [Atlas into the Atlas Mountain][2], but this did not include the celestial heavens that Atlas was cursed to hold up for eternity - we might conclude that Medusa's stare could turn any creature, including Titans such as Atlas, to stone - including extremities and clothing and possessions, but that Medusa could not turn anything belonging to Zeus or Athena to entombed stone, since Zeus and Athena could not be turned into stone by Medusa - thus Atlas was transformed into the [Atlas mountains][3], while his burden imposed by Zeus came to symbolise the *hard and enduring* mountain.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPjZKKV37do&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_(mythology)#Encounter_with_Perseus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23847" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7827" RevisionGUID="67386ea2-dba6-4ed0-9528-2e8d6555dd3b" CreationDate="2021-01-11T21:32:10.660" UserDisplayName="user7559" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="I would like to refer to a contemporary version of the myth - [Percy Jackson &amp; the Olympians: The Lightning Thief][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where victims and all of their possessions are turned into stone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Secondly, consider the following link, with Latin version (translated to English using Google Chrome Translate extension): https://latin.packhum.org/author/959 - though I couldn't find any reference, maybe you'll find a reference to this particular aspect of your question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover, considering that Perseus used the head of Medusa to turn [Atlas into the Atlas Mountain][2], but this did not include the celestial heavens that Atlas was cursed to hold up for eternity - we might conclude that Medusa's stare could turn any creature, including Titans such as Atlas, to stone - including extremities and clothing and possessions, but that Medusa could not turn anything belonging to Zeus or Athena to entombed stone, since Zeus and Athena could not be turned into stone by Medusa - thus Atlas was transformed into the [Atlas mountains][3], while his burden imposed by Zeus came to symbolise the *hard and enduring* mountain.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPjZKKV37do&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_(mythology)#Encounter_with_Perseus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23848" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7827" RevisionGUID="fcabe0a4-9c7c-49e3-ac55-e02dc10e774c" CreationDate="2021-01-11T22:39:21.300" UserDisplayName="user7559" Comment="Added further info." Text="I would like to refer to a contemporary version of the myth - [Percy Jackson &amp; the Olympians: The Lightning Thief][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Where victims and all of their possessions are turned into stone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Secondly, consider the following link, with Latin version (translated to English using Google Chrome Translate extension): https://latin.packhum.org/author/959 - though I couldn't find any reference, maybe you'll find a reference to this particular aspect of your question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Translated version, and book 4 and 5: [http://classics.mit.edu/Ovid/metam.html][2].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover, considering that Perseus used the head of Medusa to turn [Atlas into the Atlas Mountain][3], but this did not include the celestial heavens that Atlas was cursed to hold up for eternity - we might conclude that Medusa's stare could turn any creature, including Titans such as Atlas, to stone - including extremities and clothing and possessions, but that Medusa could not turn anything belonging to Zeus or Athena to entombed stone, since Zeus and Athena could not be turned into stone by Medusa - thus Atlas was transformed into the [Atlas mountains][4], while his burden imposed by Zeus came to symbolise the *hard and enduring* mountain.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPjZKKV37do&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://classics.mit.edu/Ovid/metam.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_(mythology)#Encounter_with_Perseus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23849" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5857" RevisionGUID="f2fafbfe-e3a0-4444-a2c2-a668b29e2cb8" CreationDate="2021-01-12T02:05:15.473" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23850" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7828" RevisionGUID="7b0e869f-0ec8-49f9-a8a0-68ac88cea85e" CreationDate="2021-01-12T05:50:52.317" UserId="7613" Text="Zeus' thunderbolt in ancient times was often depicted as a single weapon. It was usually depicted as a winged flaming staff with lightning wrapped around it (although the lighting then was different from the zig zag we use today, it's got more right angles). You can see this in the heraldry of the Roman legions and into the Middle Ages in heraldry. Here's a decent drawing of how it was depicted: https://mistholme.com/dictionary/thunderbolt/&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23853" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4873" RevisionGUID="057a57c1-0034-44cd-bc27-8276ccd06d11" CreationDate="2021-01-12T18:05:25.497" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23855" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7703" RevisionGUID="1e6485a8-de67-4710-9b04-d9f8ed75e16f" CreationDate="2021-01-12T22:45:51.623" UserId="7367" Comment="deleted 8 characters in body" Text="While of course descending from a diverse cultural genealogy, Greek deities appear to have become consistent with what would have been familiar gender associations to the Greeks. This can especially be seen among the twelve Olympians, with one notable exception, Athena (and an arguable second, Artemis, mentioned here for comparative purposes). Why is this the case?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I realize that the Greek concept of wisdom might have eschewed a gender role or been considered a female gender role, and I can certainly see this being the case with Hekate. It is however the combination of wisdom with Athena's prominent martial role which seems particularly strange. She holds after all, not herbs, but a spear, which I assume the Greeks would have seen as symbolism at odds with her female nature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In trying to answer this question for myself I have consulted mainly tertiary non-authoritative sources, so apologies for that. These include:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; * [This](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3le88n/if_ancient_greece_was_patriarchal_why_was_athena/) reddit AskHistorians thread. I initially found the suggestion that Athena might descend from a more “feminine and wild” (as one redditor puts it, citing sources I cannot access) mythology compelling, but it does seem incongruous with her attributes. This explanation would seem natural for the aforementioned Artemis as a goddess of the hunt, but there is certainly nothing “wild” about wisdom paired with organized warfare.&#xD;&#xA; * [The relevant Wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athena#Origins), which showcases that the warrior goddess was not at all an uncommon phenomenon in ancient religions (another interesting, but different question), but does not address how this divine attribute in particular remained exempt from gender conformity in the otherwise conforming array of major Olympians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second part of the question, is what the Greeks made of this. This rationalization might of course be unrelated to the historical origin and evolution of the deity, but certainly a female figure with a spear and a helmet would have stood out from the other gods. Is there any recount of ancient Greek commentary on this?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23857" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="6340" RevisionGUID="daabf1f8-314e-49b2-ac55-96e6bae9872b" CreationDate="2021-01-13T03:04:35.493" UserId="-1" Comment="113" />
  <row Id="23858" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="7703" RevisionGUID="4c22c9ad-023b-4f7d-babd-7e8d6d24724d" CreationDate="2021-01-13T07:12:27.800" UserId="57" Comment="115" />
  <row Id="23860" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4874" RevisionGUID="556377a0-7ce9-4083-a85e-e388cf417a95" CreationDate="2021-01-14T03:06:05.483" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23861" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7706" RevisionGUID="1ff15ace-2c62-4e1d-b755-8cc6cf054b48" CreationDate="2021-01-14T13:00:43.933" UserId="57" Comment="edited body; edited title" Text="We can see ancient references to dragon-like creatures in European, Asian and also many other civilizations.&#xD;&#xA;Did these civilizations come up with the concept of dragons independently and just coincidentally similar? Or does the entire myth have roots in one place and spread?&#xD;&#xA;Of all the creatures you can come up with, to think all these civilizations came up with the same thing independently is curious.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In even more ancient mythology, serpents were very often a target or myths. Why the cross-culture significance of serpents and serpent-like creatures like dragons?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23862" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="7706" RevisionGUID="1ff15ace-2c62-4e1d-b755-8cc6cf054b48" CreationDate="2021-01-14T13:00:43.933" UserId="57" Comment="edited body; edited title" Text="Do dragon myths share a common origin?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23863" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7702" RevisionGUID="6c385d2a-938a-456a-88c1-a99af9c97a21" CreationDate="2021-01-14T13:05:18.780" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 4 characters in body; edited title" Text="In the context of Greek and Roman mythology, suppose I'm interested in finding whether two prominent mythical personages (deities, heroes or other figures) are related or not by some written narrative, reference to narrative or iconic representation, painted or sculptural.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Has some systematic indexing work of this kind been done, making it easy to find whether such relation exists or not, in all the available written and pictorial corpus of classical antiquity?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23864" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="7702" RevisionGUID="6c385d2a-938a-456a-88c1-a99af9c97a21" CreationDate="2021-01-14T13:05:18.780" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 4 characters in body; edited title" Text="Is there an index of relationships between mythical personages of classical antiquity?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23867" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7831" RevisionGUID="ab84e4ce-9c3c-4816-b7d9-0b3491db160f" CreationDate="2021-01-14T22:23:04.533" UserId="7622" Text="As time progressed, Titans (as well as giants) became terms to use for gigantic size. I will tell you what they meant before this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Titan: this term means 'strained one'. The reason for this is because - after Cronus castrated his father - Ouranos hated the Titans for this. Thus, he gave them this name.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Giant (Gigante): this term means 'old one' or 'ancient one'. I do not know the reason for this, but that is what it meant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later sources changed the definition, and as such, increasing the size of Titans and Gigantes to enormous degrees (whereas in reality, they were around human sized)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23868" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="6341" RevisionGUID="270e7ff1-46a5-4499-85d6-603c622ba9d1" CreationDate="2021-01-15T04:11:51.247" UserId="2682" Comment="116" />
  <row Id="23869" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7832" RevisionGUID="b22257cb-9b97-4239-b5a8-ab59e3eb6480" CreationDate="2021-01-15T05:37:33.330" UserId="2682" Text="It sounds very much like you're describing an *encyclopaedia*, on the order of Wikipedia's articles on Greco-Roman mythology personages, of which there must be thousands of individual entries; or William Smith's 1888 Dictionary of Greek and Roman Mythology and Biography (see the first entry thereof in [the Perseus Digital Library](https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0104)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps the handiest such resource is Carlos Parada's [Greek Mythology Link](https://www.maicar.com/GML/index.html), which is also essentially an encyclopaedia, the section thereof most relevant to your Question perhaps being its [Dictionaries](https://www.maicar.com/GML/002Dictionaries.html) (the first Page of which, see [here](https://www.maicar.com/GML/002GG/ggAbarbarea1.html)).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I doubt that any of the above, in isolation, might be so efficient at supplying references to the ancient sources in a manner so thorough that one could, without an occasional deep research dive, be able to, at a mere glance, find a connection between any two random personages that you might be looking at.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But Greco-Roman mythology does, *per se*, contain its own structure for drawing these connections. My guesstimate is that not less than 95% of all characters in the mythology are literally related to one another by blood, almost all, in some way, tracing their lineages back to the universe's first entities (the earth-goddess Gaia being a main part of the family tree's trunk).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this way, the most direct connection between any two characters, sometimes who otherwise have absolutely nothing to do with each other, is often via the manner in which they are related in the familial sense. As an example of this, in response to the Question &quot;[Which gods were Odysseus and Penelope directly descended from?](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/4682/2682)&quot;, I found roughly twelve deities in Odysseus's ancestry and around eight divinities in Penelope's lineage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Because of the sheer volume created by the numbers of characters inhabiting the mythology, it is generally quite cumbersome constructing any detailed family tree in visual format, let alone how impossible it is to view the entire thing at a glance (at least, not without being zoomed out so far that no details are usefully visible any more).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nonetheless, I'm aware of one fairly exhaustive catalogue of what I think you're asking about, in the form of a family tree, in book format, with a very necessary *`Index`* appended thereto and complete with references to the variant versions of the relationships contained in the family tree, namely: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***A Genealogical Chart of Greek Mythology**, Comprising 3,673 Named Figures of Greek Mythology, All Related to Each Other Within a Single Family of 20 Generations*, Compiled by **Harold Newman &amp; John O. Newman** (The University of North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill &amp; London, 2003).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(A &quot;Look Inside&quot; Preview of the book is available on Amazon.com, through which outlet it is being sold. AbeBooks.com also currently shows availability thereof.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's otherwise fairly easily to find snapshots of certain branches of the tree online, such as on Wikipedia (e.g. with [the descendants of the river-god Inachus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Argive_genealogy_in_Greek_mythology)). I've also created such snapshots here and there, available at other spots on this site, such as in the cases of the ancestry of the star-god Lucifer (see [here](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2686/2682)) or of the offspring of the seven Pleïades (as in [over here](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/1724/2682)).      " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23877" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7826" RevisionGUID="2ec20290-8acc-482e-af80-5e1dab0ab4a2" CreationDate="2021-01-15T15:14:19.757" UserId="108" Comment="added 90 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="I just want to know the similarites and differences between god and hero worship in ancient Greece. Was there actually a difference, or were past heroes treated like gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23878" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="7826" RevisionGUID="2ec20290-8acc-482e-af80-5e1dab0ab4a2" CreationDate="2021-01-15T15:14:19.757" UserId="108" Comment="added 90 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="Was the Greek worship of heroes similar to their worship of the gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23879" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="7826" RevisionGUID="2ec20290-8acc-482e-af80-5e1dab0ab4a2" CreationDate="2021-01-15T15:14:19.757" UserId="108" Comment="added 90 characters in body; edited tags; edited title" Text="|greek|mythohistory|hero-cult|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23880" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="7807" RevisionGUID="df0bfda1-3d07-4495-bc14-088927c62036" CreationDate="2021-01-15T15:14:32.563" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|folklore|irish|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23881" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7702" RevisionGUID="a6eae936-610d-4e9a-ae1a-42c2ffd0c0a6" CreationDate="2021-01-15T18:18:06.917" UserId="6712" Comment="added 105 characters in body" Text="In the context of Greek and Roman mythology, suppose I'm interested in finding whether two prominent mythical personages (deities, heroes or other figures) are related or not by some written narrative, reference to narrative or iconic representation, painted or sculptural.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Has some systematic indexing work of this kind been done, making it easy to find whether such relations exist or not, in all the available written and pictorial corpus of classical antiquity?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;EDIT: Such relations where interaction is not limited to possible genealogical linkages between the characters involved.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23882" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7702" RevisionGUID="409028ef-b9c3-4258-b219-da43f8b438f6" CreationDate="2021-01-15T18:28:36.900" UserId="6712" Comment="added 22 characters in body" Text="In the context of Greek and Roman mythology, suppose I'm interested in finding whether two prominent mythical personages (deities, heroes or other figures) are related or not by some written narrative, reference to narrative or iconic representation, painted or sculptural.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Has some systematic indexing work of this kind been done, making it easy to find whether such relations exist or not, in all the available written and pictorial corpus of classical antiquity?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;EDIT: That is, a binary index of relations where interaction is not limited to possible genealogical linkages between the characters involved.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23883" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="7702" RevisionGUID="409028ef-b9c3-4258-b219-da43f8b438f6" CreationDate="2021-01-15T18:28:36.900" UserId="6712" Comment="added 22 characters in body" Text="Is there a binary index of interactions between mythical personages of classical antiquity?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23884" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7832" RevisionGUID="5cc61e28-cb21-4c85-bf7c-5d8b5702c3fe" CreationDate="2021-01-15T19:09:53.700" UserId="2682" Comment="responding to Question Edit" Text="As far as I'm aware, almost certainly not. There is no such index dedicated especially and specifically to whether any two (or more) characters from the mythology interact with each other (or with one another) or not.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would say that the best one could do in approaching something approximate to this would be an encyclopaedia, in the use of which sometimes it's easier and other times more laborious to search out whether two characters ever interact in the mythology or not. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Particularly in order to answer certain StackExchange Mythology Questions I have to had to employ the use of such a resource, generally going by a combination of: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Google    &#xD;&#xA; - Wikipedia &#xD;&#xA; - Carlos Parada's [Greek Mythology Link (GML)](https://www.maicar.com/GML/index.html) &#xD;&#xA; - [the Perseus Digital Library](https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/); and &#xD;&#xA; - of course, [Theoi.com](https://www.theoi.com/)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's an &quot;Enhanced by Google&quot; Search function one can use inside the GML and Theoi websites to perform a scan limited to only those sites while inside them. It's definitely not as sophisticated as calling up a couple of names and finding a Yes or No response regarding their possible interaction. Sometimes you'd have to skim through a few dozen Search Results to determine the answer to your query. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Often enough the interaction in question might be something along the lines of &quot;These two gods had altars next to each other in the agora of that other city over there,&quot; and that's it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If one of the characters in question is significant enough, s\he will often have her/his own dedicated Page on Wikipedia, on the GML or on Theoi. I often default to Theoi, where I would then simply perform a Find-in-Page Search of that particular webpage to look for occurrences of the *other* personage's name regarding whom I'm wondering whether s\he interacted with the first personage in view here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The chances are that if you don't find the interaction on Theoi then it doesn't occur in ancient sources, whether literary or artistic. There is, however, a lot of material in the corpus of what we refer to as Greco-Roman mythology, and I doubt that any one of the aforementioned resources, in isolation, suffices to cover absolutely every possible source, some of which can be pretty obscure." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23888" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="6341" RevisionGUID="04e45eb1-2b73-4395-9dc7-8e56634e6acf" CreationDate="2021-01-16T20:12:29.563" UserId="2682" Comment="116" />
  <row Id="23889" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7833" RevisionGUID="af55b35c-0fdd-4d26-a756-924cd1ad18b8" CreationDate="2021-01-17T16:41:26.913" UserId="188" Text="What's the most accurate translation of [Sneedronningen](https://da.wikisource.org/wiki/Sneedronningen), a.k.a The Snow Queen? I'm seeing conflicting details in the translations I've seen. But it seems that versions which call the mirror-maker the actual Devil are more accurate than ones that don't...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;TVTropes [reports](https://tvtropes.org/Literature/TheSnowQueen) that&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; * [AnimateInanimateObject](https://tvtropes.org/Main/AnimateInanimateObject):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The mirror. It is sentient, and although the devils have to move it&#xD;&#xA;&gt; around, it manages to laugh so loudly that it animates itself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Referring to this, apparently:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; da zittrede Speilet saa frygteligt i sit Griin, at det foer dem ud af&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hænderne og styrtede ned mod Jorden&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I haven't found any translations that say that the mirror is *laughing*, specifically?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Hans Lien Brækstad](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Fairy_tales_and_stories_(Andersen,_Tegner)/The_Snow_Queen) translation comes closest, but it's the demons who carry the mirror that are laughing, not the mirror itself?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The higher they flew with the mirror the more distorted and ridiculous&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the reflections became, till they could scarcely hold it for laughter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While the [Walker translation](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Fairy_tales_from_Hans_Christian_Andersen_(Walker)/The_Snow_Queen) has:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; but the higher they flew, the more it grinned, so much so that they could hardly hold it" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23890" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7833" RevisionGUID="af55b35c-0fdd-4d26-a756-924cd1ad18b8" CreationDate="2021-01-17T16:41:26.913" UserId="188" Text="What's the most accurate translation of Sneedronningen, a.k.a The Snow Queen?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23891" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7833" RevisionGUID="af55b35c-0fdd-4d26-a756-924cd1ad18b8" CreationDate="2021-01-17T16:41:26.913" UserId="188" Text="|translation|fairy-tales|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23899" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7835" RevisionGUID="5d55b8be-3fe0-4c6c-9a24-31561c3d2b0f" CreationDate="2021-01-18T23:32:31.130" UserId="614" Text="The main thing it: it is quite a typical story. Example: Haroun Al Rashid in 1001 nights exactly did that: being hidden. Fact is: we don't know what he is doing as a king, but during his night we know... That is also a common theme in old egyptians tales. You find the Pharoahs lurking in their cities at nite. Including to pay a visit to their vizir??? ??? Quite common story. Aragorn is another fair example. Richard Lion Heart generally faking being a random bard. Odysseus upon his return in Itaque... – Gibet Dec 21 '17 at 15:53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23900" PostHistoryTypeId="16" PostId="7835" RevisionGUID="b33ef673-e5c3-4909-9d88-e5dacb47fe0d" CreationDate="2021-01-18T23:32:31.130" UserId="614" />
  <row Id="23905" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7836" RevisionGUID="39546f08-b7cb-446c-a7fb-fd3a79c60ac0" CreationDate="2021-01-19T16:58:22.257" UserId="7638" Text="I think the most basic answer is no, more deeper answer would be not in the Christian way. Even from the Chronica Slavorum you can see that said Slavs didn't treat him in the way Christians treat the Devil. There are no sacrifices/prayers for the Devil in Christianity. With the premise that he's not just a Helmond's made-up god, there's in my option very good theory about him being the same as the god Veles, one of creation gods where the white one is connected with life and sky/light while the black one is connected with the death and underworld/darkness (this is concept known to many mythologies around the world). Which of course is making the black god (cerno bog) more connected to the &quot;bad things&quot; in humans eyes for death and all the demons from underworld et. are more dangerous to/hated by the living than is for example the sun. Yet they knew that it's exactly this god who could help them to control the dangerous beings and so he was good to them, too - in the way of all gods who are commonly capable of both, awesome and terrible things.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In old slavic stories that survived till today, you can commonly read about a &quot;dark lord&quot; etc. who is under the Christian influence basically understood as the Devil and is usually offering or protecting gold, magic or taking human souls etc. And people are commonly using the black color instead of an actual name which could be dangerous to say (even more after Christianity arrived) so it's likely that Cernobog was a similar thing - used instead of the actual name. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's actually a god known from Rujána who could be also connected and is not mentioned by Helmond only. it's Cernoglav (Tiarnaglofi, black-headed) whose temple was on Jasmund. He's mentioned in the Knýtlinga saga.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source:&#xD;&#xA;https://dodo.is.cuni.cz/bitstream/handle/20.500.11956/86901/DPTX_2014_2_11210_0_407388_0_163119.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23906" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7836" RevisionGUID="665518ad-cbe0-4f44-b8e3-cdb61ad82d9a" CreationDate="2021-01-19T17:03:35.550" UserId="7638" Comment="added 25 characters in body" Text="I think the most basic answer is no, more deeper answer would be not in the Christian way. Even from the *Chronica Slavorum* you can see that said Slavs didn't treat him in the way Christians treat the Devil. There are no sacrifices/prayers for the Devil in Christianity. With the premise that he's not just a Helmond's made-up god, there's in my option very good theory about him being the same as the god Veles, one of creation gods where the white one is connected with life and sky/light while the black one is connected with the death and underworld/darkness (this is a concept known to many mythologies around the world). Which of course is making the black god (cerno bog) more connected to the &quot;bad things&quot; in human eyes for death and all the underworld demons etc. are more dangerous to/hated by the living than is for example the sun. Yet they knew that it's exactly this god who could help them to control the dangerous beings and so he was good to them, too - in the way of all gods who are commonly capable of both, awesome and terrible things.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In old slavic stories that survived till today, you can commonly read about a &quot;dark lord&quot; etc. who is under the Christian influence basically understood as the Devil and is usually offering or protecting gold, magic or taking human souls etc. And people are commonly using the black color instead of an actual name which could be dangerous to say (even more after Christianity arrived) so it's likely that Cernobog was a similar thing - a secondary name created from the basic descriptors. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's actually a god known from Rujána/Rügen who could be also connected and is not mentioned by Helmond only. it's Cernoglav (Tiarnaglofi, black-headed) whose temple was on Jasmund. He's mentioned in the Knýtlinga saga.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source:&#xD;&#xA;https://dodo.is.cuni.cz/bitstream/handle/20.500.11956/86901/DPTX_2014_2_11210_0_407388_0_163119.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23908" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7728" RevisionGUID="d52edab6-f369-4942-a3f6-3e687adb78a7" CreationDate="2021-01-19T19:24:07.840" UserId="188" Comment="Since this seems to not be focused on other regions?" Text="I am looking for Greco-Roman stories of a mother losing her young daughter and the grief that takes place as a consequence of such. I am writing a play where a similar thing occurs and would like to make an allusion to classical mythology. (the story could be from anything classical, even folklore is fine, although stories which are too obscure might defeat the purpose of making an allusion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any insight would be humbly and greatly appreciated." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23909" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="7728" RevisionGUID="d52edab6-f369-4942-a3f6-3e687adb78a7" CreationDate="2021-01-19T19:24:07.840" UserId="188" Comment="Since this seems to not be focused on other regions?" Text="Greco-Roman stories of a mother losing her daughter?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23910" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="7728" RevisionGUID="d52edab6-f369-4942-a3f6-3e687adb78a7" CreationDate="2021-01-19T19:24:07.840" Comment="Proposed by 188 approved by 5726, 108 edit id of 1853" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23912" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7836" RevisionGUID="360f1862-3466-4bbe-92bd-f81b0b7a7d92" CreationDate="2021-01-20T08:40:47.927" UserId="7638" Comment="Triglav info added" Text="I think the most basic answer is no, more deeper answer would be not in the Christian way. Even from the *Chronica Slavorum* you can see that said Slavs didn't treat him in the way Christians treat the Devil. There are no sacrifices/prayers for the Devil in Christianity. With the premise that he's not just a Helmond's made-up god, there's in my option very good theory about him being the same as the god Veles, one of creation gods where the white one is connected with life and sky/light while the black one is connected with the death and underworld/darkness (this is a concept known to many mythologies around the world). Which of course is making the black god (cerno bog) more connected to the &quot;bad things&quot; in human eyes for death and all the underworld demons etc. are more dangerous to/hated by the living than is for example the sun. Yet they knew that it's exactly this god who could help them to control the dangerous beings and so he was good to them, too - in the way of all gods who are commonly capable of both, awesome and terrible things.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In old slavic stories that survived till today, you can commonly read about a &quot;dark lord&quot; etc. who is under the Christian influence basically understood as the Devil and is usually offering or protecting gold, magic or taking human souls etc. And people are commonly using the black color instead of an actual name which could be dangerous to say (even more after Christianity arrived) so it's likely that Cernobog was a similar thing - a secondary name created from the basic descriptors. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's actually a god known from Rujána/Rügen who could be also connected and is not mentioned by Helmond only. it's Cernoglav (Tiarnaglofi, black-headed) whose temple was on Jasmund. He's mentioned in the Knýtlinga saga.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;EDIT: Just as an interesting addition, Triglav (e.g. in Štětín/Szczecin/Stettin...) is also connected to the &quot;dark side&quot; as his oracle horse was black (in contrary to the white horse of Svarožič and Svantovít).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source:&#xD;&#xA;https://dodo.is.cuni.cz/bitstream/handle/20.500.11956/86901/DPTX_2014_2_11210_0_407388_0_163119.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23914" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7837" RevisionGUID="50c72ebf-e3e7-4e60-9fb0-1728ad353c16" CreationDate="2021-01-20T13:15:57.377" UserId="7622" Text="I need a detailed answer to this question. Thank you!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23915" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7837" RevisionGUID="50c72ebf-e3e7-4e60-9fb0-1728ad353c16" CreationDate="2021-01-20T13:15:57.377" UserId="7622" Text="Will there only be one Ragnarök, or will there be multiple?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23916" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7837" RevisionGUID="50c72ebf-e3e7-4e60-9fb0-1728ad353c16" CreationDate="2021-01-20T13:15:57.377" UserId="7622" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23917" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7838" RevisionGUID="083ec8fb-fc55-491a-b4bf-51d3e18e2959" CreationDate="2021-01-21T05:57:20.687" UserId="7642" Text="There is a legend that Ulug' Bek, the grandchild of Amir Timur (aka Tamerlane), invited dancers and asked them to dip their feet into a blue coloring and dance on a huge roll of paper. Later he laid the resulting picture over the map of the sky.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am looking for any information related to that legend." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23918" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7838" RevisionGUID="083ec8fb-fc55-491a-b4bf-51d3e18e2959" CreationDate="2021-01-21T05:57:20.687" UserId="7642" Text="Where can I find information about the legend of Ulug' Bek and dancers?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23919" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7838" RevisionGUID="083ec8fb-fc55-491a-b4bf-51d3e18e2959" CreationDate="2021-01-21T05:57:20.687" UserId="7642" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23922" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7749" RevisionGUID="2102466a-dfb0-49bf-a0b8-880f8851e9ab" CreationDate="2021-01-21T10:47:21.337" UserId="6739" Comment="added 54 characters in body" Text="The greek Drákaines (Δράκαινες) is a race or group of serpent-like creatures with human features, generally female. Basically what the Medusa from the original 80's Clash of the Titans, minus the snakes for hair. The singular name is [drakaina](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drakaina_(mythology)) (Δρακαινα), and the latin name is dracaena. Does anyone know the name of any other mythological creatures, from any other regions, such as ancient Egypt, Persia, China, or Japan, with the same description, a creature which is upper half human, lower half serpent?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23926" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3194" RevisionGUID="f848ff69-d6d2-4bb9-93a1-7293c1a5a693" CreationDate="2021-01-21T20:06:55.723" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23931" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5312" RevisionGUID="23addbaa-c9b4-4401-aa82-99da10d6e599" CreationDate="2021-01-22T07:04:35.407" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23932" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7840" RevisionGUID="8afa527d-b07a-4d56-bfab-9a6d52f54ac6" CreationDate="2021-01-22T13:19:36.797" UserId="7564" Text="In Irish folklore/mythology, the national Irish epic poem &quot;Tain&quot; (Táin Bo Chuiligne) is a story of a cattle raid in the early Iron Age in Ireland as the armies of Queen Maebh of Connaught travel to Cooley (then in Ulster) across the country harried by Cú Chulainn, the demi-godlike champion of Ulster. The armies of Ulster are wasted due to a divine curse placed on them which Cú Chulainn is immune to. Similar to Jason, it speaks of obtaining an animal token which will bring great status to its owner, so rather than a bit of cattle rustling, it speaks of the acquisition of wealth as a measure of the power of the ruler. However, there is a bit of sexual politics since Maebh's husband King Ailill in a prologue called 'The Pillowtalk' starts out by boasting of his wealth to Maebh whereupon she cannot match him in one item only, namely a great bull. Therefore, she embarks on the odyssey-like journey across Ireland, with numerous battles and combats on the way. Ultimately, the tale ends in disaster for all. Cú Chulainn, despite his power, is killed (like Achilles) and a ruse to support his dead body (as El Cid) frightens the enemy off." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23933" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7841" RevisionGUID="939e16d8-a29d-46b9-90c4-cfed9e6389f7" CreationDate="2021-01-22T17:30:15.317" UserId="7646" Text="***DISCLAIMER: I did not create this creepypasta, nor do I claim it to be true.***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm not quite sure if this is the right place to ask about creepypastas, but there isn't a specific site on the SE network for them, so I decided to ask about it here. Feel free to cast migration votes if there is a better alternative.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So yeah, the Backrooms.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You've probably heard of it-- (and maybe even believed it as a child) but if you haven't, here's the origin of the story from an old 4chan user:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*&quot;If you're not careful and you noclip out of reality in the wrong areas, you'll end up in the Backrooms, where it's nothing but the stink of old moist carpet, the madness of mono-yellow, the endless background noise of fluorescent lights at maximum hum-buzz, and approximately six hundred million square miles of randomly segmented empty rooms to be trapped in...&#xD;&#xA;God save you if you hear something wandering around nearby, because it sure as hell has heard you&quot;*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Like every other creepypasta out there, I know that none of this is actually real.** However, one thing in particular rubbed me the wrong way--&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I had had a dream a few years ago that perfectly matches the description of the Backrooms-- this was before I even knew the story existed...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now I know I might sound stupid asking this... but is there any truth behind this? Is this a real phenomena? If so, what is it?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Feel free to ask me about elaborate anything further." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23934" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7841" RevisionGUID="939e16d8-a29d-46b9-90c4-cfed9e6389f7" CreationDate="2021-01-22T17:30:15.317" UserId="7646" Text="What's the secret behind the infamous 'Backrooms' creepypasta?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23935" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7841" RevisionGUID="939e16d8-a29d-46b9-90c4-cfed9e6389f7" CreationDate="2021-01-22T17:30:15.317" UserId="7646" Text="|folklore|monsters|superstition|dreams|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23936" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7842" RevisionGUID="69843b43-4105-4b15-9d21-fffb2bbf7f48" CreationDate="2021-01-22T21:17:49.840" UserId="2682" Text="The only ancient sources I have been able to find are from the works of Roman and Greek Christians from the early stages of the Christianisation of the Roman Empire. These typically are acquainted with the god's name via the Ancient Greek translation of the Tanakh (commonly known as the Septuagint), in which he is called something like *Beelphegor*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover their main concern with the topic of his name is the performance of some *interpretatio romana* and *interpretatio graeca*, i.e. their attempts at identifying a foreign deity with a Roman or Greek one with whom, in their own homelands, they would be more familiar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Ch. 2 of his Commentary on Isaiah (writing in the late 300s &amp; early 400s AD), Eusebius Sophronius Hieronymus, better known in English as St Jerome, says that &quot;the idol Beelphegor&quot; is to be interpreted as Priapus. According to Theoi.com, the Greco-Roman divinity Priapus &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was the god of vegetable gardens. He was also a protector of beehives,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; flocks and vineyards. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[He] was depicted as a dwarfish man with a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; huge member, symbolising garden fertility, a peaked Phrygian cap,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; indicating his origin as a Mysian god, and a basket weighed down with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fruit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Against Jovinianus* 1.22, Hieronymus highlights further the logic behind this identification by appealing to an apparent similarity between the Greek/Latin word *Priapus* and the &quot;Hebrew&quot; *Phogor*, i.e. *Pe'or*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to p. 74 of *A Dictionary of Angels, Including the Fallen Angels*, by Gustav Davidson (The Free Press, A Division of Simon &amp; Schuster Inc., 1967, New York, NY), Rufinus, a contemporary of Hieronymus, also identified Beelphegor (or *Belphegor*) with Priapus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to p. 97 of the Rev. John Thein's *Ecclesiastical Dictionary, Containing in Concise Form, Information Upon Ecclesiastical, Biblical, Archæological, and Historical Subjects* (Benziger Brothers, 1900, New York, Cincinnati, Chicago), Origen of Alexandria, who lived a couple of centuries earlier, made the same identification. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his Commentary on Psalm 106, Theodoret of Cyrrhus, yet another contemporary of Hieronymus and Rufinus, says that &quot;*Baal Peor* is an idol&quot; while &quot;*Peor* is the name of the place of the idol&quot;, and also that the idol *Baal* is &quot;called Kronos [Cronus] in the Greek language.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The 10th century AD encyclopaedia called the *Souda* [*Suda*] seems to be referencing Theodoret when it uses almost these exact words of his for its definition of this god's name under the encyclopedia's &quot;Beelphegor&quot; and &quot;Phegor&quot; entries. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thein's *Ecclesiastical Dictionary* says that Apollinaris and St John Chrysostom also identified Baal-Peor with Saturnus, in which case the Roman name for the Titan Kronos is being here employed.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23943" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7843" RevisionGUID="aee0fa5c-cc6a-483d-b42c-5688d0825004" CreationDate="2021-01-23T05:32:09.067" UserId="7622" Text="In the Iliad, he isn't invincible. He just has overwhelmingly strong armour after his mother, Thetis, petitioned Hephaestus to have it made." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23944" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7844" RevisionGUID="3bfce9d5-2bac-4e69-8193-b6ef94b6572b" CreationDate="2021-01-23T06:58:06.443" UserId="4601" Text="It is indeed 4chan, per [Know Your Meme](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/the-backrooms):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;On April 21st, 2018, an anonymouse 4chan user posted the image in the /x/ forum in a thread about cursed images (shown below).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;On May 12th, 2019, an anonymous 4chan user started a thread in the site's paranormal board /x/ inviting users to post pictures of &quot;disquieting images&quot; that just feel &quot;off.&quot; The user posted a picture of a yellow room at an off-center angle (shown below). A user replied with a narrative about the picture....&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;On May 14th, another thread combining the picture and the comment appeared on /x/. Two days later, the post appeared on /r/greentext[3] under the caption &quot;Worse than any creepypasta out there,&quot; gaining over 32,000 points....&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And so forth. (Given the dates I don't see how anyone reading this in 2021 could have read or believed it to be true 'as a child'.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A quick search shows there's nothing unusual about dreaming of new or previously unknown rooms in a familiar place, or an expanse of strange rooms (I've had both myself), so it's likely no more than a coincidence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a structural similarity to your standard portal fantasy, but the details are unmistakably Information Age, from the late 20th Century office setting to 'noclipping' (the portal) through walls." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23945" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7845" RevisionGUID="cbf7aba5-daaa-4d28-966e-1f3f945e7e82" CreationDate="2021-01-23T23:00:13.413" UserId="7649" Text="Lately I have been reading terence McKenna. He thinks there is a connection between glaucous (meaning blue gray) and rituals. He suggests that there is a connection between the blue gray color of the musk (light film) on grapes. It's a blue gray color. He also suggests the glaucous color has connections with the color of a bruised mushroom. And, the more I learn about greek myth I read about eye opening  hallucinogenics that could be the food of the gods. That people who visited Eleusis and participated the ritual there. were taking a combination of wine, mushrooms and other herbs. musky blue-gray, silvery gleam, bright eyed. I am sure there are many more interpolation attempts. I read about Glaucous, Deucalion, and now Athena. The more I read the more i find that greek rituals were about ever lasting life. birth, death, and rebirth. Seeing the real world, the real truth. The person becomes immoral.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23947" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7846" RevisionGUID="65c037e5-de8a-44b3-b2a8-214bdad427e2" CreationDate="2021-01-24T07:37:16.267" UserId="7622" Text="I though Jötnar were humanoid in appearance, and yet Loki and Angrboda produced a serpent and a wolf as offspring.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know that Loki and Angrboda are Jötnar, so how did they give birth to monsters in the form of animals when they themselves are more humanoid in appearance? And how did they also give birth to Hel, a woman who is half-dead, half-alive?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23948" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7846" RevisionGUID="65c037e5-de8a-44b3-b2a8-214bdad427e2" CreationDate="2021-01-24T07:37:16.267" UserId="7622" Text="Are Fenrir and Jormungandr Jötnar?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23949" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7846" RevisionGUID="65c037e5-de8a-44b3-b2a8-214bdad427e2" CreationDate="2021-01-24T07:37:16.267" UserId="7622" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23950" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1436" RevisionGUID="1658f8c3-b3e6-452e-9b02-a9a932c81d41" CreationDate="2021-01-24T11:22:20.103" UserId="57" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="Mary Renault proposes another option - that Ariadne took part in the chthonic goddess rites of Naxos that still involved human sacrifice, and when Theseus saw this he was repulsed and realized that she would be what Medea was to his father Aegeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For reference check out The King Must Die and the Bull from the Sea." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23951" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7795" RevisionGUID="958bb4e8-4034-4e57-b6bc-3392e3ee89f8" CreationDate="2021-01-25T07:11:19.357" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 60 characters in body" Text="I can't provide any sources, this is from memory. It seemed there may have been a war of beliefs going on, to have a greater foothold in Scandinavia. The creation story of Adam and Eve may have been adopted into Norse religion from political powers wanting to christen the population. With Viking Kings conquering many Christian countries and reigning as king's/leaders who have become Christian themselves. It does seem to me this is the most likely conclusion. Adam and Eve were introduced into Norse Mythology to make both religions more similar and enable the Norse to become Christian more easily. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23954" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7807" RevisionGUID="af8a87b8-234e-4469-831c-599c2d050547" CreationDate="2021-01-25T19:08:30.357" UserId="5726" Comment="changed title according to comment OP" Text="Does anyone have any record of a story associated with the trivallate settlement complex on the Hill of Mael in Co. Westmeath, Ireland? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am looking for earlier Celtic stories under Irish mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23955" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="7807" RevisionGUID="af8a87b8-234e-4469-831c-599c2d050547" CreationDate="2021-01-25T19:08:30.357" UserId="5726" Comment="changed title according to comment OP" Text="Is there a Celtic folklore or mythology story associated with the Hill of Mael in Ireland?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23956" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="983" RevisionGUID="8abb4ba6-3bcc-4027-a833-00e4d46cc15e" CreationDate="2021-01-26T18:10:08.143" UserId="7660" Comment="Replaces &quot;Perseus&quot; for &quot;Pegasus&quot; when it refers to the winged horse" Text="The myths themselves are not going to give a technical explanation of this, so we are setting off on the wrong foot if we are seeking an answer at such a level, which is that of our modern technological mind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An initial observation to make is that the myth does not always include a shield, as Yannis notes in the case of Hesiod's account. We can also turn to the iconography, which likewise also does not necessarily portray a shield. See, e.g., the metope from Salinas ca. 540 B.C. (at the Museo Nazionale Archeologico in Palermo, Italy; in Morford &amp; Lenardon's *Classical Mythology* 8th ed., p. 552) and the black-figure jug by Amasis, Attic, 6th cen. BCE (in Neumann, *Consciousness* (below), illustration 25) both showing Perseus killing her while simply averting his gaze. For the Greeks, averting the gaze and looking at her reflection in the shield/mirror were obviously equivalent. Her power was either nullified or greatly diminished when looked at in reflection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I also don't think the eyes were crucial. I'm not aware of any source that stresses her eyes. Rather, they focus on her whole face (Ovid, *Metamorphosis* 4:783) or overall appearance, as in the passage from Apollodoris in the answer above. We can't ignore her protruding tongue, tusks, or snakes for hair, since they are all essential to her character and mythological meaning. That's why they are there. And that's why Perseus had to look at the shield even though she was sleeping (presumably her eyes were closed).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we go into the underlying psychological aspects of the myth (as we should with most myths), Perseus, like the typical hero, is in the process of fully realizing his ego consciousness, while this monster represents the all-consuming Terrible Mother of the unconscious seeking to suck him back into there and destroy his nascent ego consciousness. To confront her directly is too dangerous, so only averting the gaze or looking at her indirectly through the reflection will enable him to succeed. In the versions where the &quot;bronze&quot; shield/mirror appears, that is a solar/light symbol of the ego that not only enables him to see a diminished Medusa, but which as such also serves as a guide and beacon to him to keep him on course. Here it is also relevant that the Greeks also stressed the details of his escape. When Perseus kills the Medusa, the winged horse called Pegasus appears out of her (representing the ego that has escaped her, a parallel with Perseus himself), which Perseus rides while being pursued by Medusa's sisters. His winged sandals, invisibility helmet, and hiding-wallet also play a figurative role, for which he has to thank Athena, goddess of wisdom (and so of consciousness). See Edward Edinger, *The Eternal Drama: The Inner Meaning of Greek Mythology,* pp. 4, 83; Erich Neumann, *The Great Mother,* p. 166; Erich Neumann, *The Origins and History of Consciousness,* pp. 87, 178, 214-16.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I hope this helps.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23957" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="983" RevisionGUID="8abb4ba6-3bcc-4027-a833-00e4d46cc15e" CreationDate="2021-01-26T18:10:08.143" Comment="Proposed by 7660 approved by 5726, 53 edit id of 1854" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23958" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7847" RevisionGUID="b4ef95bf-0102-4658-a4ca-903c061444f4" CreationDate="2021-01-27T02:14:03.913" UserId="7140" Text="The phallos is made from beeswax in some versions, pretty sure.&#xD;&#xA;Neith is Tanith, a rough equivalent of Asherah and Anat/Athena. Asherah was called Anat Yahu in ancient inscriptions. Her Temple was called the &quot;house of the bee&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://www.spirithillswinery.com/bee-history/#:~:text=King%20Menes%20of%20Egypt%20was,The%20House%20of%20the%20Bee'.&amp;text=Some%20of%20my%20favorite%20bee,in%20Greek%20and%20Roman%20mythology.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23959" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7848" RevisionGUID="6e2801d4-94c5-4668-8311-f421d15b71d1" CreationDate="2021-01-27T07:30:24.207" UserId="7622" Text="I am wondering this, as it is a fascinating question in it's own right. I know that Heracles lived at about age 70-80, but what is the minimum, if not the maximum age a demigod can live." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23960" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7848" RevisionGUID="6e2801d4-94c5-4668-8311-f421d15b71d1" CreationDate="2021-01-27T07:30:24.207" UserId="7622" Text="How long do demigods live for?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23961" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7848" RevisionGUID="6e2801d4-94c5-4668-8311-f421d15b71d1" CreationDate="2021-01-27T07:30:24.207" UserId="7622" Text="|greek|hercules|theseus|achilles|bellerophon|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23963" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7849" RevisionGUID="9f53869a-2089-4c8d-9e1d-d2f228fc729a" CreationDate="2021-01-27T23:16:59.607" UserId="7666" Text="I have read any number of references, both pre and post AD regarding the use of the name of Mary or a derivative, for women who were involved with mystical work or alchemical study. Does anyone have more clarification on this?   " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23964" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7849" RevisionGUID="9f53869a-2089-4c8d-9e1d-d2f228fc729a" CreationDate="2021-01-27T23:16:59.607" UserId="7666" Text="Is anyone familiar with the Mary title for women?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23965" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7849" RevisionGUID="9f53869a-2089-4c8d-9e1d-d2f228fc729a" CreationDate="2021-01-27T23:16:59.607" UserId="7666" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23966" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7850" RevisionGUID="c6a75e5e-f003-4ed0-9d7e-616708c5f22d" CreationDate="2021-01-28T08:15:19.863" UserId="5511" Text="In their quest for legitimacy, Hellenistic and later alchemical authors claimed that alchemy was an art handed down from the major biblical figures. In the course of time it had become for them a basic tenet that alchemy was first revealed by God to Adam &amp; Eve. &#xD;&#xA;Mary was considered the new Eve after the flood. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[See: Biblical Figures as Alchemists][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.jstor.org/stable/23507668?seq=1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23967" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7851" RevisionGUID="9150a023-a452-48ed-87dc-993b44f4a855" CreationDate="2021-01-29T02:01:08.643" UserId="7670" Text="When the angels where kicked out of heaven they inhabited earth and had sex with women. There offspring were giants and they had physical abilities that were stronger than man. This was not God’s plan for man. The earth was so evil God had to flood it so that man wouldn't get wiped out. The stories of these giants were told many years after and are now told in mythology. They aren't demigods. They are evil Godless creatures formed in rebellion to the one living God." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23968" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7851" RevisionGUID="23bcbe19-a523-489e-958b-057b536dc086" CreationDate="2021-01-29T09:56:40.997" UserId="53" Comment="Typos and formatting" Text="When the angels where kicked out of heaven they inhabited earth and had sex with women. Their offspring were giants and they had physical abilities that were stronger than man. This was not God’s plan for man. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The earth was so evil God had to flood it so that man wouldn't get wiped out. The stories of these giants were told many years after and are now told in mythology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They aren't demigods. They are evil Godless creatures formed in rebellion to the one living God." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23970" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6144" RevisionGUID="5360f8ed-8816-42a4-abb4-5f36fac95a34" CreationDate="2021-01-31T02:03:35.387" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23974" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="7846" RevisionGUID="b818d5c0-14f8-4700-b83e-01b7740ec0b5" CreationDate="2021-01-31T21:00:11.290" UserId="7622" Comment="edited tags" Text="|norse|loki|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23976" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7852" RevisionGUID="c737d06a-63c4-4598-9c25-46f964accc73" CreationDate="2021-02-02T22:22:05.530" UserId="742" Text="Was the Grim Reaper originally depicted with a scythe or a sickle? I have seen both versions of the Angel of Death's weapon and was wondering which one is considered the older, more original version.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Related question: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/7679/what-is-the-origin-of-grim-reaper" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23977" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7852" RevisionGUID="c737d06a-63c4-4598-9c25-46f964accc73" CreationDate="2021-02-02T22:22:05.530" UserId="742" Text="Was the Grim Reaper originally depicted with a scythe or a sickle?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23978" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7852" RevisionGUID="c737d06a-63c4-4598-9c25-46f964accc73" CreationDate="2021-02-02T22:22:05.530" UserId="742" Text="|underworld|history|iconography|angels|weapons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23979" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7853" RevisionGUID="6fe178cf-2294-49bb-bca5-57e2328b368e" CreationDate="2021-02-03T11:36:53.807" UserId="7622" Text="This is something I don't understand. If Hera hates Zeus' infidelity, to the point of cursing his lovers and even trying to overthrow him, why not marry someone else?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23980" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7853" RevisionGUID="6fe178cf-2294-49bb-bca5-57e2328b368e" CreationDate="2021-02-03T11:36:53.807" UserId="7622" Text="Why doesn't Hera divorce Zeus and marry someone more faithful?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23981" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7853" RevisionGUID="6fe178cf-2294-49bb-bca5-57e2328b368e" CreationDate="2021-02-03T11:36:53.807" UserId="7622" Text="|greek|zeus|hera|goddesses|maiden-goddesses|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23983" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7855" RevisionGUID="cd64e9c4-1a41-43ac-92ca-355aa5416969" CreationDate="2021-02-03T14:51:36.223" UserId="7622" Text="I can think of three times Zeus' rule was challenged:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. The Gigantomachy was a war pitting the Olympians and Gigantes. Gaia, distraught at how her Titan sons were imprisoned, sent her sons the Gigantes to overthrow Zeus. Prophecy stated they needed a demigod, and they had just that (Dionysus and Heracles). The Gigantes were defeated and rule was secured, but only for a short while…&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 2. The second time Zeus' rule was challenged was during the Typhonomachy. This war pitted Typhon - a massive 100-headed snake-giant monster against Zeus and Athena. This was now the second time Gaia's rebellion failed, and so, in union with Tartarus, she bore Typhon. All of the Olympian gods fleed, including Zeus, but Athena convinced him to stay. Athena was easily defeated, and Zeus, too. Typhon ripped out Zeus' sinews and tendons, and tortured him mercilessly. Luckily for Zeus, Hermes and Pan showed up, retrieveing said tendons and giving them back to Zeus. After a 10,000 year battle, Zeus prevailed. It is safe to say that Typhon is the strongest being in the cosmos, even surpassing Zeus, but still probably ranked below primordials.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 3. This is the last time Zeus' rule was challenged: Hera, Poseidon, Athena, and (in some versions) Apollo tried to overthrow the king of the gods by binding him with chains. Luckily for the sky god, Briareus - one of the Hecatoncheires - showed up and untied the 100 knots binding Zeus. The gods cowered and begged for mercy. Hera was hung in the sky, Apollo and Poseidon were stripped of their power and forced to build the walls of Troy, and Athena (clearly being Zeus' favourite) received no punishment." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23984" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7856" RevisionGUID="c2f6ad55-f524-45bd-8b62-66e467b94ff8" CreationDate="2021-02-03T19:11:20.837" UserId="5229" Text="Zeus is more powerful than Hera and all the other gods. In fact, he is even stronger than all of them put together, if we take his word for it ([Iliad 8.19-27](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.8.viii.html)). This is what Zeus says to Hera after he realizes that she had tricked him into falling asleep in order to help the Achaeans:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The sire of gods and men had pity on him, and looked fiercely on Juno. &quot;I see, Juno,&quot; said he, &quot;you mischief-making trickster, that your cunning has stayed Hector from fighting and has caused the rout of his host. I am in half a mind to thrash you, in which case you will be the first to reap the fruits of your scurvy knavery. Do you not remember how once upon a time I had you hanged? I fastened two anvils on to your feet, and bound your hands in a chain of gold which none might break, and you hung in mid-air among the clouds. All the gods in Olympus were in a fury, but they could not reach you to set you free; when I caught any one of them I gripped him and hurled him from the heavenly threshold till he came fainting down to earth; yet even this did not relieve my mind from the incessant anxiety which I felt about noble Hercules whom you and Boreas had spitefully conveyed beyond the seas to Cos, after suborning the tempests; but I rescued him, and notwithstanding all his mighty labours I brought him back again to Argos. I would remind you of this that you may learn to leave off being so deceitful, and discover how much you are likely to gain by the embraces out of which you have come here to trick me.&quot; (*Iliad* [15.14-33](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.15.xv.html); there are similar speeches in [book 8](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.8.viii.html))&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The myths have Hera trying to thwart Zeus many times, and she always suffers for it. She couldn't simply decide to get divorced from the king of the gods, if he didn't want her to separate from him." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23985" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7857" RevisionGUID="a401b1a6-5ff9-423f-8e87-5273451d6b56" CreationDate="2021-02-03T20:02:50.410" UserId="7688" Text="It's Columbia.  I can't tell you why she's dressed like that but Columbia was the symbol of the USA until after the Statue of Liberty was completed in the mid 1880s.   " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23986" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7858" RevisionGUID="3593a01d-aa22-4f5c-a84d-3243d2e86e54" CreationDate="2021-02-03T21:23:42.260" UserId="7688" Text="No one really knows for sure but the idea is in France in the 1500s New Year's celebrations would start a few days before then end on April 1st.  When the date changed to January 1st people who still celebrated on the old date would be made fun of as April fish.  A few centuries later people would try to stick a paper fish onto someone's back, without them noticing, as a prank.  It seems that over time people forgot all that and just stuck to pranks and other silliness.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23987" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="7801" RevisionGUID="6843c4a7-50a8-474c-bd41-dc1fc9010a03" CreationDate="2021-02-04T01:04:00.393" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="23989" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7860" RevisionGUID="d6c87ef1-6e3b-412e-9415-488a36b67ffa" CreationDate="2021-02-04T20:38:12.030" UserId="7692" Text="Origin of April Fools' Day or April Fool's Day:&#xD;&#xA;A disputed association between April 1 and foolishness is in Geoffrey Chaucer's The Canterbury Tales (1392).&#xD;&#xA;In 1508, French poet Eloy d'Amerval referred to a poisson d'avril (April fool, literally &quot;April's fish&quot;), possibly the first reference to the celebration in France.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some writers suggest that April Fools' originated because in the Middle Ages, New Year's Day was celebrated on March 25 in most European towns, with a holiday that in some areas of France, specifically, ended on April 1, and those who celebrated New Year's Eve on January 1 made fun of those who celebrated on other dates by the invention of April Fools' Day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, the earliest date seems to be circa 1392." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23993" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="7853" RevisionGUID="fb0f4002-8657-4435-8dc5-e55719cc1912" CreationDate="2021-02-05T08:04:50.143" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|zeus|hera|mariage|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23996" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="7853" RevisionGUID="2e0efd28-cf8f-4671-907c-1c57a56c98d8" CreationDate="2021-02-05T13:40:53.343" UserId="5229" Comment="typo in new tag" Text="|greek|zeus|hera|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23997" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="7853" RevisionGUID="2e0efd28-cf8f-4671-907c-1c57a56c98d8" CreationDate="2021-02-05T13:40:53.343" Comment="Proposed by 5229 approved by 7622 edit id of 1856" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23998" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7861" RevisionGUID="da4dbc98-f32e-41eb-b31a-d38fc1abddcb" CreationDate="2021-02-05T16:52:24.740" UserId="7695" Text="I would like to clear up the stereotype that surrounds Hades and makes him look like a bad guy. In modern time whenever you watch a movie or play a videogame where Hades is one of the characters they make it seem as though he is evil and I think that's based around the fact that he rules the underworld. Let's go back in time to how it was he came to be the ruler of the underworld. Hades, Poseidon, and Zeus, the three oldest brothers among the children of their father Cronus came together and killed Cronus to stop his rampage of destruction and eating his children. In this process, it is known for sure that Zeus was the one to perform the final strike that ended Cronus and it was after that when they decided who of the three brothers would either control the sea, the sky, or the underworld. You can read whatever source you would like but you will never find a certain and reliable answer as the how this was decided but we do know the outcome. Zeus became the god of the sky and the ruler of Olympus while Poseidon became the ruler of the sea and Hades was appointed (yes I said appointed) to be the ruler of the underworld. One story says that it was all decided by a coin toss which determined their positions by chance while another story states that because hades was the oldest of the three he was considered the most responsible and was sent to manage the underworld and the third most common story is that they drew lots. Since there are so many variations of the story you simply cannot consider any of them reliable. Regardless of this came to be all the stories do happen to have one thing in common. None of them picked their roles by choice, it was all chance and literally any of them could have ended up as the ruler of the underworld. Another stereotype is that Zeus is a good guy when in reality, he has abused the fact that he is the ruler of Olympus to get away with raping several other goddesses including his own sister Hera and even his brothers wife. Sure you might make the argument that Hades kidnapped his wife before marrying her but he never raped her. Instead he tried to overwhelm her with luxuries and even then he didn't keep her there for too long against her will. He did let her go but she came back. Now you might want to argue that Persephone was Hades niece and that's just as wrong as Zeus marrying his sister Hera. Zeus raped Hera but Hades did not rape Persephone and believe it or not, marrying people related to you was a very common thing among gods in almost every religion as well as humans all throughout history. On top of this Persephone is one of Zeus's many daughters and Zeus disguised himself as hades just to sleep with her and they even had a child. I would go on with all the nasty things that Zeus has done but this article is supposed to be about Hades. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="23999" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7862" RevisionGUID="6f168c5e-6372-45c4-a7d8-3c04fa227582" CreationDate="2021-02-05T19:30:00.667" UserId="7696" Text="I was recently listening to a song from the movie &quot;The Ballad of Buster Scruggs&quot;, [this][1] song to be more precise. Anyway, at some point as you can see in the video the voice of the singer echoes in the canyon and he quickly improvises a lyric &quot;Keep on moving Dan, don't you listen to him Dan, he is a devil not a man&quot; referring to the personification of echo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So this sparkled the following question: How is echo presented in the mythology of native tribes that lived in northern America? Are there any known myths about echo, its nature, its origin or so? I am unsure but I think that I have come across a comparison of the ancient Greek and the native American perception of echo, possibly by Claude Levi Strauss. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any help is appreciated! This is my first post here, so please go easy if I am not posting this at the right place or something.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCqmTBhgAus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24000" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7862" RevisionGUID="6f168c5e-6372-45c4-a7d8-3c04fa227582" CreationDate="2021-02-05T19:30:00.667" UserId="7696" Text="Perception of Echo and myths concering its nature in Northern America" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24001" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7862" RevisionGUID="6f168c5e-6372-45c4-a7d8-3c04fa227582" CreationDate="2021-02-05T19:30:00.667" UserId="7696" Text="|comparative|native-american|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24002" PostHistoryTypeId="8" PostId="6494" RevisionGUID="6deeaada-ed33-485c-ace4-45fa48886e38" CreationDate="2021-02-05T23:05:36.843" UserId="3307" Comment="Rollback to [60083bea-ede2-4d45-afac-d7fa2b33cd63]" Text="It seems to be more a societal caste than something inspired by their mythology, although virginity has been associated in many cultures with the ability to prophecy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Higgins [*The Celtic Druids* p. 187][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Druidesses were divided into three classes. The first were those who had vowed perpetual virginity, and lived together in communities separate from the world. Mela† gives a description of one of these nunneries. It was situated on an island in the British sea, and contained nine of them. Strange accounts are told of their magical incantations, &amp;c. &amp;c., just what, under the circumstances, might be expected. They are said to have pretended to possess an oracle. The second class were married, but spent their time in company with the Druids, and in the offices of religion; having conversation only occasionally with their husbands. The third class was the lowest, and were, in fact, only servants in the temples and attendants on the Druids.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[St. Brigid][2] belonged to the first class, being a Chief Druidess before her conversion to Christianity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://archive.org/details/b22010294/page/187/mode/2up&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://isidore.co/calibre#panel=book_details&amp;book_id=7938" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24004" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7862" RevisionGUID="e4000292-e067-4326-9a1b-ecd98c908ba9" CreationDate="2021-02-06T01:54:36.343" UserId="6920" Comment="grammar error" Text="I was recently listening to a song from the movie &quot;The Ballad of Buster Scruggs&quot;, [this][1] song to be more precise. Anyway, at some point as you can see in the video, the voice of the singer echoes in the canyon and he quickly improvises a lyric &quot;Keep on moving Dan, don't you listen to him Dan, he is a devil not a man&quot; referring to the personification of the echo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So this sparkled the following question: How is the echo presented in the mythology of native tribes that lived in northern America? Are there any known myths about the echo, its nature, its origin or so? I am unsure but I think that I have come across a comparison of the ancient Greek and the native American perception of echoes, possibly by Claude Levi Strauss. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any help is appreciated! This is my first post here, so please go easy if I am not posting this at the right place or something.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCqmTBhgAus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24005" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="7862" RevisionGUID="e4000292-e067-4326-9a1b-ecd98c908ba9" CreationDate="2021-02-06T01:54:36.343" UserId="6920" Comment="grammar error" Text="Perception of echoes and myths concerning its nature in Northern America" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24006" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="7862" RevisionGUID="e4000292-e067-4326-9a1b-ecd98c908ba9" CreationDate="2021-02-06T01:54:36.343" Comment="Proposed by 6920 approved by 7696 edit id of 1857" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24009" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="4584" RevisionGUID="9d0ee8df-711a-4b3f-9b40-f0f96a08e801" CreationDate="2021-02-06T18:08:30.283" UserId="398" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;C. M. Weimer&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="24010" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="7821" RevisionGUID="34611bca-3bc4-4db5-ac40-e27ca2d48114" CreationDate="2021-02-07T09:06:10.727" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="24012" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7863" RevisionGUID="12cc0b29-4e76-4174-b5a4-6c10d0e256f2" CreationDate="2021-02-07T22:28:31.003" UserId="7702" Text="Is the reason gods assaulted women because of eros? did gods and mortals a like blame eros for their act of “passion” ?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24013" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7863" RevisionGUID="12cc0b29-4e76-4174-b5a4-6c10d0e256f2" CreationDate="2021-02-07T22:28:31.003" UserId="7702" Text="what was the reason for rape in greek myths and culture" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24014" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7863" RevisionGUID="12cc0b29-4e76-4174-b5a4-6c10d0e256f2" CreationDate="2021-02-07T22:28:31.003" UserId="7702" Text="|greek|origins|zeus|mythohistory|aphrodite|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24015" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7863" RevisionGUID="409ee2f6-617d-4c1d-8744-eaf38e2a0429" CreationDate="2021-02-08T12:25:48.187" UserId="7703" Comment="minor copy-edits" Text="Is the reason gods assaulted women because of Eros? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did gods and mortals alike blame Eros for their act of &quot;passion&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24016" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="7863" RevisionGUID="409ee2f6-617d-4c1d-8744-eaf38e2a0429" CreationDate="2021-02-08T12:25:48.187" Comment="Proposed by 7703 approved by 53, 5726 edit id of 1858" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24019" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7864" RevisionGUID="ca9ef1f0-8438-474d-9919-809a26ac1c6d" CreationDate="2021-02-09T10:44:06.010" UserId="7315" Text="The available sources on Norse mythology do not seem to give much importance to (for a lack of a better term) &quot;biological relations&quot;. Instead, they place a lot of emphasis on the &quot;function&quot; of characters. Hence, Loki is never referred to as a Jötunn, despite being the son of the giant Farbauti (the cathegory of beings to which his mother Laufey belongs is never specified, although there is some consensus she was a goddess). Instead, Snorri explicitly places him among the Aesir in Gylfaginning. Keep in mind that Odin himself, being the son of the giantess Bestla, would be &quot;biologically&quot; half-giant, but this takes nothing away from his function as head of the Aesir.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover, and perhaps most importantly, Loki is presented as a shapeshifter, even going as far as taking the appearence of a mare and giving birth to Odin's horse Sleipnir (source again is Gylfaginning in Snorri's Edda). It shouldn't then come as a surprise that a serpent and a wolf are part of his offspring too.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In conclusion, Fenrir and Jörmungandr are never called Jotnar in the available sources. They are instead referred to according to the function they fulfill, i.e. that of &quot;monsters&quot;. Or, as the specific kind of monster they represent: a worm, or serpent for the latter; a wolf, or warg for the former.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24020" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7864" RevisionGUID="161f7697-5e15-46df-81f7-53553d14c06f" CreationDate="2021-02-09T11:45:27.057" UserId="7315" Comment="edited body" Text="The available sources on Norse mythology do not seem to give much importance to (for a lack of a better term) &quot;biological relations&quot;. Instead, they place a lot of emphasis on the &quot;function&quot; of characters. Hence, Loki is never referred to as a Jötunn, despite being the son of the giant Farbauti (the cathegory of beings to which his mother Laufey belongs is never specified, although there is some consensus she was a goddess). Instead, Snorri explicitly places him among the Aesir in Gylfaginning. Keep in mind that Odin himself, being the son of the giantess Bestla, would be &quot;biologically&quot; half-giant, but this takes nothing away from his function as head of the Aesir.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover, and perhaps most importantly, Loki is presented as a shapeshifter, even going as far as taking the appearence of a mare and giving birth to Odin's horse Sleipnir (source again is Gylfaginning in Snorri's Edda). It shouldn't then come as a surprise that a serpent and a wolf are part of his offspring too.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In conclusion, Fenrir and Jörmungandr are never called Jötnar in the available sources. They are instead referred to according to the function they fulfill, i.e. that of &quot;monsters&quot;. Or, as the specific kind of monster they represent: a worm, or serpent for the latter; a wolf, or warg for the former.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24021" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7864" RevisionGUID="a2ecbc3c-f525-40ac-aa21-ca4b345a8014" CreationDate="2021-02-09T20:08:38.633" UserId="7315" Comment="edited body" Text="The available sources on Norse mythology do not seem to give much importance to (for a lack of a better term) &quot;biological relations&quot;. Instead, they place a lot of emphasis on the &quot;function&quot; of characters. Hence, Loki is never referred to as a Jötunn, despite being the son of the giant Farbauti (the cathegory of beings to which his mother Laufey belongs is never specified, although there is some consensus she was a goddess). Instead, Snorri explicitly places him among the Aesir in Gylfaginning. Keep in mind that Odin himself, being the son of the giantess Bestla, would be &quot;biologically&quot; half-giant, but this takes nothing away from his function as head of the Aesir.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover, and perhaps most importantly, Loki is presented as a shapeshifter, even going as far as taking the appearance of a mare and giving birth to Odin's horse Sleipnir (source again is Gylfaginning in Snorri's Edda). It shouldn't then come as a surprise that a serpent and a wolf are part of his offspring too.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In conclusion, Fenrir and Jörmungandr are never called Jötnar in the available sources. They are instead referred to according to the function they fulfill, i.e. that of &quot;monsters&quot;. Or, as the specific kind of monster they represent: a worm, or serpent for the latter; a wolf, or warg for the former.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24022" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7865" RevisionGUID="8b103c91-b4f8-49b5-bc96-0a7af0570d48" CreationDate="2021-02-10T16:59:52.420" UserId="7715" Text="This is going to be really vague and I thank you in advance for your time. &#xD;&#xA;I need help to find the creature or character or tale or whatever linked to the following description thank you!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Have a connection: &#xD;&#xA;With dreams, like maybe as a bridge. &#xD;&#xA;With secrets or maybe contracts? Or the notion of using words with intentions.&#xD;&#xA;With music or rhythm or singing.&#xD;&#xA;With energies or spirits or souls, like being able to feel energies, move it within someone by touching (like getting rid of heavy energies to help), or seeing someone's .. huh soul... place? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also a connection to water and clairvoyance and it might be something or someone with a mention of something on their back.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And something to do with keys as well, opening doors (but that might just be the bridge thing mentioned earlier).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As to location, I'd say maybe from Africa or India? Or Indian Ocean I don't know any clue from anywhere would be amazing to be honest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't know the right answer and there might be details missing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you all again.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;N " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24023" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7865" RevisionGUID="8b103c91-b4f8-49b5-bc96-0a7af0570d48" CreationDate="2021-02-10T16:59:52.420" UserId="7715" Text="Please, need help identifying creature or character" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24024" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7865" RevisionGUID="8b103c91-b4f8-49b5-bc96-0a7af0570d48" CreationDate="2021-02-10T16:59:52.420" UserId="7715" Text="|myth-identification|mythical-creatures|origins|monsters|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24025" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7865" RevisionGUID="c0b38c3d-6af7-49db-8379-499ebfe8a52e" CreationDate="2021-02-10T18:04:16.547" UserId="5726" Comment="cleaned up answer and changed formatting" Text="I need help to find the creature or character or tale or whatever linked to the following description:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Have a connection: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- With dreams, like maybe as a bridge. &#xD;&#xA;- With secrets or maybe contracts? Or the notion of using words with intentions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- With music or rhythm or singing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- With energies or spirits or souls, like being able to feel energies, move it within someone by touching (like getting rid of heavy energies to help), or seeing someone's .. huh soul... place? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also a connection to water and clairvoyance and it might be something or someone with a mention of something on their back.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And something to do with keys as well, opening doors (but that might just be the bridge thing mentioned earlier).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As to location, I'd say maybe from Africa or India? Or around the Indian Ocean. Any clue from anywhere would be amazing to be honest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't know all details so there might be details missing.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24026" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="7865" RevisionGUID="c0b38c3d-6af7-49db-8379-499ebfe8a52e" CreationDate="2021-02-10T18:04:16.547" UserId="5726" Comment="cleaned up answer and changed formatting" Text="Need help identifying creature or character" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24027" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7865" RevisionGUID="c95d3606-4c68-4dbf-a46b-2aaa5cb90d62" CreationDate="2021-02-10T19:39:40.367" UserId="5726" Comment="added OP comment to question" Text="I need help to find the creature or character or tale or whatever linked to the following description:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Have a connection: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- With dreams, like maybe as a bridge. &#xD;&#xA;- With secrets or maybe contracts? Or the notion of using words with intentions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- With music or rhythm or singing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- With energies or spirits or souls, like being able to feel energies, move it within someone by touching (like getting rid of heavy energies to help), or seeing someone's .. huh soul... place? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also a connection to water and clairvoyance and it might be something or someone with a mention of something on their back.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And something to do with keys as well, opening doors (but that might just be the bridge thing mentioned earlier).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As to location, I'd say maybe from Africa or India? Or around the Indian Ocean. Any clue from anywhere would be amazing to be honest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't know all details so there might be details missing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Edit from comment - I did some intense search before finally finding Mythology and Folklore and read about [Hekate][1] and also [Seiðr][2], and despite both being really close (especially Seiðr), I feel like there is something missing to it but couldn't cross reference any of those with other existing myths and legends, I thought &quot;maybe some kind of shapeshifter&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Hekate.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sei%C3%B0r" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24028" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7866" RevisionGUID="42a52fb8-d9a6-49dc-b4e2-68fb366c6539" CreationDate="2021-02-10T20:23:43.847" UserId="7716" Text="i know there are dog gods like the Inugami but are there any evil dog gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24029" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7866" RevisionGUID="42a52fb8-d9a6-49dc-b4e2-68fb366c6539" CreationDate="2021-02-10T20:23:43.847" UserId="7716" Text="Are there any Evil dog gods in folklore?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24030" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7866" RevisionGUID="42a52fb8-d9a6-49dc-b4e2-68fb366c6539" CreationDate="2021-02-10T20:23:43.847" UserId="7716" Text="|mythical-creatures|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24031" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7866" RevisionGUID="9f159cbc-3eb4-4b72-a61e-eaefd980bd09" CreationDate="2021-02-10T20:28:04.017" UserId="5726" Comment="minor edit" Text="I know there are dog gods like the Inugami but are there any evil dog gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24032" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="7866" RevisionGUID="9f159cbc-3eb4-4b72-a61e-eaefd980bd09" CreationDate="2021-02-10T20:28:04.017" UserId="5726" Comment="minor edit" Text="Are there any evil dog gods in folklore?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24033" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7866" RevisionGUID="2cd70a35-5177-46f2-bf48-a6b3752abc85" CreationDate="2021-02-10T20:40:06.747" UserId="5726" Comment="added comment of op to question" Text="I know there are dog gods like the Inugami but are there any evil dog gods? By this I mean a god that is clearly evil but still represented as a dog. Cerberus would fit the bil if it where a god and evil. That is the direction I am going for " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24036" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7867" RevisionGUID="a8a7addc-171e-4054-9928-6de70e4dc104" CreationDate="2021-02-10T22:12:54.257" UserId="7315" Text="The closest  one (it's not really a god) that comes to my mind is the Norse hellhound *Garmr*, who is given a mostly evil connotation (he's described as howling and blood-stained, and is associated with the coming of Ragnarok).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, in his article [The Hellhound][1], Bruce Lincoln describes a widespread Indo-European motif of two *otherworldly dogs*: a &quot;white dog of life&quot; and a &quot;black dog of death&quot;, of which clearly the latter seems to be characterized as evil, or at least menacing. If you are interested, I recommend you take a look at the article, as he provides many references on *otherworldly dogs* in Indo-European myth and folklore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.academia.edu/33292000/Hellhound_pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24046" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="2337" RevisionGUID="1740fc4b-74ad-432e-b71c-ffc83fddf7f6" CreationDate="2021-02-12T20:21:58.143" UserId="5726" Comment="120" />
  <row Id="24047" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7869" RevisionGUID="c2641691-7c6f-43f1-b80d-bc48c243136b" CreationDate="2021-02-12T23:05:35.863" UserId="7315" Text="What you are referencing is the oldest english translation of the *Volsunga Saga*, by Magnusson and Morris (1870), and it is very outdated. More modern versions (Finch 1965, Grimstad 2005) render *Garðakonungi* as &quot;the king of Gardariki&quot;, i.e. the Varangian-Russian kingdom founded in the 9th century. Also, in Grimstad 2005, the sentence is translated as &quot;I fought in battles along with the king of Gardariki&quot;. Hence, she was *not in battle against* the king of Gardariki. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately, we cannot even use the *Poetic Edda* (on which the *Volsunga Saga* is based) as a cross reference to clarify this specific passage, as it corresponds to a gap of several missing pages in the *Prose Edda* known as the *Great Lacuna*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In any case, the reference to *Gardariki* is no doubt a later addition, since as you correctly pointed out by mentioning Attila the Hun, the saga refers to 5th century historical events, while *Gardariki* is a 9th century political entity." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24049" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7869" RevisionGUID="22c82910-2940-4679-87ee-533c55a0b0f5" CreationDate="2021-02-13T00:24:47.940" UserId="7315" Comment="added 73 characters in body" Text="What you are referencing is the oldest english translation of the *Volsunga Saga*, by Magnusson and Morris (1870), and it is very outdated. More modern versions (Finch 1965, Grimstad 2005) render *Garðakonungi* as &quot;the king of Gardariki&quot;, i.e. the Varangian-Russian kingdom founded in the 9th century. Also, in Grimstad 2005, the sentence is translated as &quot;I fought in battles along with the king of Gardariki&quot;. Hence, she was *not in battle against* the king of Gardariki. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately, we cannot even use the *Poetic Edda* (on which the *Volsunga Saga* is based) as a cross reference to clarify this specific passage, as it corresponds to a gap of several missing pages in the *Codex Regius* (the only available source for most of the poems of the *Poetic Edda*) known as the *Great Lacuna*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In any case, the reference to *Gardariki* is no doubt a later addition, since as you correctly pointed out by mentioning Attila the Hun, the saga refers to 5th century historical events, while *Gardariki* is a 9th century political entity." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24050" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7864" RevisionGUID="6c7cba69-7bed-462a-8e46-fa12832d3e7b" CreationDate="2021-02-13T00:30:53.547" UserId="7315" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="The available sources on Norse mythology do not seem to give much importance to (for a lack of a better term) &quot;biological relations&quot;. Instead, they place a lot of emphasis on the &quot;function&quot; of characters. Hence, Loki is never referred to as a Jötunn, despite being the son of the giant Farbauti (the category of beings to which his mother Laufey belongs is never specified, although there is some consensus she was a goddess). Instead, Snorri explicitly places him among the Aesir in Gylfaginning. Keep in mind that Odin himself, being the son of the giantess Bestla, would be &quot;biologically&quot; half-giant, but this takes nothing away from his function as head of the Aesir.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover, and perhaps most importantly, Loki is presented as a shapeshifter, even going as far as taking the appearance of a mare and giving birth to Odin's horse Sleipnir (source again is Gylfaginning in Snorri's Edda). It shouldn't then come as a surprise that a serpent and a wolf are part of his offspring too.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In conclusion, Fenrir and Jörmungandr are never called Jötnar in the available sources. They are instead referred to according to the function they fulfill, i.e. that of &quot;monsters&quot;. Or, as the specific kind of monster they represent: a worm, or serpent for the latter; a wolf, or warg for the former.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24051" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7869" RevisionGUID="c82fb1ca-90a3-4c7e-b16c-c6c142ecf96d" CreationDate="2021-02-13T00:40:01.717" UserId="7315" Comment="added 40 characters in body" Text="What you are referencing is the oldest english translation of the *Volsunga Saga*, by Magnusson and Morris (1870), and it is very outdated. More modern versions (Finch 1965, Grimstad 2005) render *Garðakonungi* as &quot;the king of Gardariki&quot;, i.e. the Varangian-Russian kingdom founded in the 9th century. Also, in Grimstad 2005, the sentence is translated as &quot;I fought in battles along with the king of Gardariki&quot;. Hence, it seems that she was *not in battle against* the king of Gardariki, but rather alongside him. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately, we cannot even use the *Poetic Edda* (on which the *Volsunga Saga* is based) as a cross reference to clarify this specific passage, as it corresponds to a gap of several missing pages in the *Codex Regius* (the only available source for most of the poems of the *Poetic Edda*) known as the *Great Lacuna*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In any case, the reference to *Gardariki* is no doubt a later addition, since as you correctly pointed out by mentioning Attila the Hun, the saga refers to 5th century historical events, while *Gardariki* is a 9th century political entity." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24052" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7864" RevisionGUID="d6801d2b-d5fe-4665-8075-193d11ea66a0" CreationDate="2021-02-13T11:46:34.797" UserId="7315" Comment="added 613 characters in body" Text="The available sources on Norse mythology do not seem to give much importance to (for a lack of a better term) &quot;biological relations&quot;. Instead, they place a lot of emphasis on the &quot;function&quot; of characters. Hence, Loki is never referred to as a Jötunn, despite being the son of the giant Farbauti (the category of beings to which his mother Laufey belongs is never specified, although there is some consensus she was a goddess). Instead, Snorri explicitly places him among the Aesir in Gylfaginning. Keep in mind that Odin himself, being the son of the giantess Bestla, would be &quot;biologically&quot; half-giant, but this takes nothing away from his function as head of the Aesir.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover, and perhaps most importantly, Loki is presented as a shapeshifter, even going as far as taking the appearance of a mare and giving birth to Odin's horse Sleipnir (source again is Gylfaginning in Snorri's Edda). It shouldn't then come as a surprise that a serpent and a wolf are part of his offspring too.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In conclusion, Fenrir and Jörmungandr are never called Jötnar in the available sources. They are instead referred to according to the function they fulfill, i.e. that of &quot;monsters&quot;. Or, as the specific kind of monster they represent: a worm, or serpent for the latter; a wolf, or warg for the former.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**EDIT** (to include more information on Jötnar):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, a little comment on the humanoid appearance of Jötnar. This is not always the case, as there are several instances, for example, of giants with many heads (e.g. Tyr's grandmother, Aurgelmir's son, and the nine-headed Þrívaldi). The thing is, there is no &quot;canonical&quot; description of Jötnar in the known sources. Some are described as beautiful and assumed to be humanoid (like Gerðr), some as monstrous and with clearly non-humanoid features (like Tyr's grandmother), some are made of stone (like Hrungnir), and others are known to shapeshift (like Þjazi).&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24054" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7860" RevisionGUID="be9fdf24-05cb-404b-8817-d210123c81e2" CreationDate="2021-02-13T14:04:24.603" UserId="57" Comment="added source for quotes" Text="Origin of April Fools' Day or April Fool's Day&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A disputed association between April 1 and foolishness is in Geoffrey Chaucer's The Canterbury Tales (1392).  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In 1508, French poet Eloy d'Amerval referred to a poisson d'avril (April fool, literally &quot;April's fish&quot;), possibly the first reference to the celebration in France.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Some writers suggest that April Fools' originated because in the Middle Ages, New Year's Day was celebrated on March 25 in most European towns, with a holiday that in some areas of France, specifically, ended on April 1, and those who celebrated New Year's Eve on January 1 made fun of those who celebrated on other dates by the invention of April Fools' Day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, the earliest date seems to be circa 1392.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; Wikipedia contributors. (2021, February 9). April Fools' Day. In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved 14:02, February 13, 2021, from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=April_Fools%27_Day&amp;oldid=1005743216&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24055" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7870" RevisionGUID="d229d033-9b19-4e36-8ec6-c2ff293d9363" CreationDate="2021-02-13T15:08:02.567" UserId="7315" Text="Your question reminded me of a concept in Zoroastrian mythology. Although I have the feeling this is not what you are looking for, it does have connections with a bridge, music, the human soul, and, to some extent, shapeshifting and opening doors. It is the *Daēnā* (*Dēn*), which in his book *Comparative Mythology*, Jaan Puhvel describes as a&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; heavenly double of the human soul, which is molded for beauty or ugliness by man's earthly demeanor and confronts him for good or ill at judgment.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his article *The Ferryman of the Dead*, Bruce Lincoln gives more details:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Most often, the guide across the&#xD;&#xA;perilous *Cinvat Bridge* is a maiden who is the personification of one's own&#xD;&#xA;religion (*daēnā-*), being beautiful, fragrant, stately, and virtuous if one's religion is all it should be, and repulsive, putrid, knock-kneed, and whorish if it&#xD;&#xA;is not. Needless to say, it is only the beautiful *Daēnā*-maiden who assists one&#xD;&#xA;over the bridge into heaven, while her hideous counterparts drags the soul&#xD;&#xA;down into torment.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The connection to music comes from the very name of heaven in Zoroastrian tradition:  *Garōdmān*, literally &quot;House of Song&quot;. In her paper *The Allegory of Dēn in Persian Art*, Guitty Azarpay interprets the female instrumentalists appearing on a Sassanian bowl as representations of the *Daēnā* and writes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Indeed, music had a prescribed role in Zoroastrian religious ritual where Avestan hymns were sung and recited to the accompaniment of stringed instruments. But as the ultimate goal of the righteous soul's journey in the next world, the resplendent *garōdmān* was regarded as the &quot;House of Song&quot; and a source of sweet music (*niwāg ī xwaś*) whence the soul derived joy and delight (*huniyāgīh ud rāmiśn*). Thus the felicitous implications of music, expressed in graphic terms by the instruments represented on the Foroughi bowl, would seem to fulfill the joyful quality claimed as an attribute by the personified *dēn* of the pious soul in the Zoroastrian texts.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24065" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7874" RevisionGUID="9cd07b9f-0d8c-49b5-99ac-7386d669af30" CreationDate="2021-02-15T12:35:23.810" UserId="7622" Text="I am confused on the 'race' of Typhon. Is he a god, albeit a monstrous one (he is descended from gods after all)? A Gigante, albeit this time birthed from union between Tartarus and Gaia instead of Ouranos and Gaia? Or is he just his own species/race?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24066" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7874" RevisionGUID="9cd07b9f-0d8c-49b5-99ac-7386d669af30" CreationDate="2021-02-15T12:35:23.810" UserId="7622" Text="Is Typhon a Gigante or god?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24067" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7874" RevisionGUID="9cd07b9f-0d8c-49b5-99ac-7386d669af30" CreationDate="2021-02-15T12:35:23.810" UserId="7622" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|monsters|titans|typhon|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24070" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7876" RevisionGUID="be0e5f83-1830-4c94-b223-7506019393a8" CreationDate="2021-02-16T22:52:11.477" UserId="7315" Text="If you are interested in this theme, I strongly suggest you take a look at *The Golden Bough* by James George Frazer. Just to give you a taste, here's how he begins Chapter XXIV, where he first introduces the theme of &quot;The Mortality of the Gods&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Man has created gods in his own likeness and being himself mortal he has naturally supposed his creatures to be in the same sad predicament. Thus the Greenlanders&#xD;&#xA;believed that a wind couId kill their most powerful god, and that he would certainly die if he touched a dog. When they heard of the Christian God, they kept asking if he never died, and being informed that he did not, they were much surprised, and said that he must be a very great god indeed. In answer to the enquiries of Colonel Dodge,&#xD;&#xA;a North American Indian stated that the world was made by the Great&#xD;&#xA;Spirit. Being asked which Great Spirit he meant, the good one or the&#xD;&#xA;bad one, &quot;Oh, neither of them,&quot; replied he, &quot;the Great Spirit that&#xD;&#xA;made the world is dead long ago. He could not possibly have lived&#xD;&#xA;as long as this.&quot; A tribe in the Philippine Islands told the Spanish&#xD;&#xA;conquerors that the grave of the Creator was upon the top of Mount&#xD;&#xA;Cabunian. Heitsi-eibib, a god or divine hero of the Hottentots, died&#xD;&#xA;several times and came to life again. [...] The grave of Zeus, the great&#xD;&#xA;god of Greece, was shown to visitors in Crete as late as about the&#xD;&#xA;beginning of our era. The body of Dionysus was buried at Delphi&#xD;&#xA;beside the golden statue of Apollo, and his tomb bore the inscription,&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Here lies Dionysus dead, the son of Semele.&quot; According to one&#xD;&#xA;account, Apollo hirnself was buried at Delphi ; for Pythagoras is said&#xD;&#xA;to have carved an inscription on his tomb, setting forth how the god&#xD;&#xA;had been killed by the python and buried under the tripod.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He then proceeds to analyze in more detail some specific examples, some of which were already mentioned both in the question and in some of the answers and comments (Baldr, Dionysus, Jesus, Dumuzid, Osiris). Although his interpretation that the dying (and often resurrecting) god motif should be seen as an allegory of the yearly natural cycle of death and rebirth is not taken seriously by scholars nowadays, the books is still an impressive collection of myths and folktales from all over the world." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24071" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="2543" RevisionGUID="fc5424f1-1c50-4ad5-b49b-d6892b4d7706" CreationDate="2021-02-17T02:22:47.013" UserId="398" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;C. M. Weimer&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="24072" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="5461" RevisionGUID="77b32f1a-2ba3-4a99-9242-d436d59b5b76" CreationDate="2021-02-17T02:23:25.683" UserId="398" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;C. M. Weimer&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="24075" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7877" RevisionGUID="6598f0d4-932b-4f69-b3ef-c0ea43fb2a5a" CreationDate="2021-02-17T12:16:03.983" UserId="7731" Text="I once heard a myth which went along the lines that somewhere in the North of England there was a sheep (or other animal) which, if approached at the correct time (probably midnight) and date, would speak the day of your death (I'm not sure exactly how it went though).  Unfortunately when I've tried to find out about this my searches have drawn a blank.  Does anyone know of a myth like this, or did I just imagine it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24076" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7877" RevisionGUID="6598f0d4-932b-4f69-b3ef-c0ea43fb2a5a" CreationDate="2021-02-17T12:16:03.983" UserId="7731" Text="Sheep that speaks the day of your death" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24077" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7877" RevisionGUID="6598f0d4-932b-4f69-b3ef-c0ea43fb2a5a" CreationDate="2021-02-17T12:16:03.983" UserId="7731" Text="|animals|british|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24078" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7878" RevisionGUID="ae92a6e0-3c83-40d4-9cce-8affe7749cc7" CreationDate="2021-02-17T16:53:16.223" UserId="7622" Text="Take a look at how they were birthed. They were the 100 children of Sky and Earth. These parents alone can give you insight as to what they can produce. Snakes also represent a close affinity with the Earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, those were merely the newest Roman versions. In the earlier Greek classical sources, they were depicted as looking like men, wearing armour, and having incredible strength (that didn't stop increasing unless they were in contact with their mother the Earth [Gaia]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't like the snake-legged depictions, it seems a bit inhumane. You, however, can pick what you so wish.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Have a blessed day/night." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24080" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7879" RevisionGUID="e12c487f-b2fb-4ded-a1be-78134f251f64" CreationDate="2021-02-18T05:19:40.087" UserId="7733" Text="It looks like it depends. I listed a few examples below. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At least a number of them are primordial deities. Orunmila, for example, was present at the beginning of creation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikpedia says that Obatala was &quot;brought to life by the smooth breath of Olodumare&quot;. Orunto is also a son of Olodumare.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ogun is also primordial.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Erinle was a great hunter who became an orisha." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24081" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7879" RevisionGUID="2e0af0b8-71fd-4e1c-8b93-5a91b7326d6f" CreationDate="2021-02-18T05:28:37.393" UserId="7733" Comment="added 104 characters in body" Text="It looks like it depends. I listed a few examples below. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At least a number of them are primordial deities. Orunmila, for example, was present at the beginning of creation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The primordial Orishas &quot;emanated directly from God without any human aid,&quot; according to Britannica.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia says that Obatala was &quot;brought to life by the smooth breath of Olodumare&quot;. Orunto is also a son of Olodumare.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ogun is also primordial.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Erinle was a great hunter who became an orisha." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24082" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7880" RevisionGUID="fc0f3bad-4c54-4448-ae1e-bbeee84d2bff" CreationDate="2021-02-18T22:22:39.997" UserId="197" Text="Christian iconography question.  This is about [a 1936 life-sized statue of Jesus Christ fallen beneath the cross][i], by sculptor Somló Sári.  The statue is at Budapest 2. ker. Pasaréti tér, next to the Franciscan roman catholic church of Pasarét dedicated to Saint Anthony of Padua, in a fenced garden next to the bell tower.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The statue depicts another men besides Christ.  This second figure is holding what looks like a flail in his right hand, ready to strike Christ.  Who is this second figure?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![(photo of the garden with the statue)][e]][i]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I expect that this question is answerable because Catholic mythology concerning Christ's passion is as detailed as the expanded universe for the original Star Wars movie trilogy.  Every character and inanimate item encountered has not only a name, but also a also book-length back story.  We know about the two criminals who were on the cross next to Christ, about the soldiers who verified that he's dead, etc.  A person who stands next to the fallen Christ with a flail seems significant enough that he must have a definite identity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;([Cross-post from hu.Wikipedia reference desk, where I didn't get an answer.][c])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[c]: https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Tudakoz%C3%B3/Arch%C3%ADvum/2021-01-22&#xD;&#xA;[e]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/Bp-pasaret-templom-krisztus-kereszttel.jpg/660px-Bp-pasaret-templom-krisztus-kereszttel.jpg&#xD;&#xA;[i]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Statue_of_Jesus_Christ_bearing_the_Cross_by_S%C3%A1ri_Soml%C3%B3" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24083" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7880" RevisionGUID="fc0f3bad-4c54-4448-ae1e-bbeee84d2bff" CreationDate="2021-02-18T22:22:39.997" UserId="197" Text="Who is the figure holding a cross next to Christ fallen with the cross in the statue at Budapest 2, Pasaréti tér?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24084" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7880" RevisionGUID="fc0f3bad-4c54-4448-ae1e-bbeee84d2bff" CreationDate="2021-02-18T22:22:39.997" UserId="197" Text="|christianity|iconography|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24085" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7881" RevisionGUID="f40b344c-0a85-481d-9634-c18076f5150c" CreationDate="2021-02-19T15:20:07.633" UserId="1317" Text="&lt;h2&gt;Set&lt;/h2&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;is a possibility, if you're,willing to stretch the meaning of &quot;dog&quot; a bit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Set](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_(deity)) is one of the oldest gods in Egyptian mythology. He is usually represented by a mythical _sha_ or &quot;[Set-animal](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_animal)&quot; &amp;#x130e9; which appears to be some sort of canid in general, combined with some other supernatural characteristics. As time passed, Set himself had an anthropomorphic form with the head of a _sha_. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One problem with this relates to the &quot;evilness&quot; of Set. Although the [Osiris myth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris_myth) where Set murders and mutilates   Osiris dates from the 24th Century BC, Set was also a protector of Ra from the chaos god Apep. Some Pharaohs such as the 19th Dynasty [Seti I](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seti_I) and II chose Set-based names instead of Horus or Amun-based ones.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Set didn't really become an &quot;evil&quot; deity until the 11th century BCE and onwards, when Egypt was conquered by the Nubians, Assryians, and Persians.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24086" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7881" RevisionGUID="01251194-f74b-44d8-b82f-45c499755ea4" CreationDate="2021-02-19T16:22:26.370" UserId="1317" Comment="added 67 characters in body" Text="&lt;h2&gt;Set&lt;/h2&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;is a possibility, if you're,willing to stretch the meaning of &quot;dog&quot; a bit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Set](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_(deity)) is one of the oldest gods in Egyptian mythology. He is usually represented by a mythical _sha_ or &quot;[Set-animal](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_animal)&quot; &amp;#x130e9; which appears to be some sort of canid in general, combined with some other supernatural characteristics. As time passed, Set himself had an anthropomorphic form with the head of a _sha_. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One problem with this relates to the &quot;evilness&quot; of Set. Although the [Osiris myth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris_myth) where Set murders and mutilates Osiris dates from the 24th Century BCE, Set was also a protector of Ra from the chaos god Apep. Some Pharaohs such as the 19th Dynasty [Seti I](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seti_I) and II chose Set-based names instead of Horus or Amun-based ones.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Set didn't really become an &quot;evil&quot; deity until the [11th century BCE](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Intermediate_Period_of_Egypt) and onwards, when Egypt was conquered by the Nubians, Assryians, and Persians.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24087" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7882" RevisionGUID="4bb3cce4-c688-44b6-972a-f8e26a493f67" CreationDate="2021-02-19T16:39:04.817" UserId="7315" Text="This seems like a depiction of the third station of the [Way of the Cross][1], called &quot;Jesus falls for the first time&quot;. The scene often includes a soldier or a civilian pulling Jesus with a rope and beating/whipping him, see for example this painting by Martin Feuerstein:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The scene does not appear in any of the Gospels (you can check them here: [Matthew 27][3], [Mark 15][4], [Luke 23][5], [John 19][6]), and in fact, only John has Jesus carrying the cross himself. Since it is not based on the scriptures, but rather on popular tradition starting in the late Middle Ages, the iconography of the *Way of the Cross* can vary a lot, and no details are given about minor albeit recurring characters like the one you are asking about.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By contrast, we know more about *Longinus* and the two thieves because they are mentioned in the Gospels, and they are even given names in the apocryphal [Gospel of Nicodemus][7].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stations_of_the_Cross&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ZSDrg.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.biblica.com/bible/niv/matthew/27/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.biblica.com/bible/niv/mark/15/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.biblica.com/bible/niv/luke/23/&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.biblica.com/bible/niv/john/19/&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/08071c.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24088" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7882" RevisionGUID="d5610c49-ead3-430a-b406-6cf26f69d7fc" CreationDate="2021-02-19T16:47:29.663" UserId="7315" Comment="added 46 characters in body" Text="This seems like a depiction of either the third, the seventh or the ninth station of the [Way of the Cross][1], called &quot;Jesus falls for the first/second/third time&quot;. The scene often includes a soldier or a civilian pulling Jesus with a rope and beating/whipping him, see for example this painting by Martin Feuerstein:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The scene does not appear in any of the Gospels (you can check them here: [Matthew 27][3], [Mark 15][4], [Luke 23][5], [John 19][6]), and in fact, only John has Jesus carrying the cross himself. Since it is not based on the scriptures, but rather on popular tradition starting in the late Middle Ages, the iconography of the *Way of the Cross* can vary a lot, and no details are given about minor albeit recurring characters like the one you are asking about.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By contrast, we know more about *Longinus* and the two thieves because they are mentioned in the Gospels, and they are even given names in the apocryphal [Gospel of Nicodemus][7].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stations_of_the_Cross&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ZSDrg.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.biblica.com/bible/niv/matthew/27/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.biblica.com/bible/niv/mark/15/&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.biblica.com/bible/niv/luke/23/&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.biblica.com/bible/niv/john/19/&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/08071c.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24089" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7883" RevisionGUID="1dd9bf9d-dff4-4a12-ba18-991859cbcd80" CreationDate="2021-02-19T17:35:45.617" UserId="7740" Text="Spirit, soul, cannot be destroyed.  Therefore a tree spirit will not die but merely transmute when a tree is felled, in the same way that the human soul does not die when the body dies." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24090" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7884" RevisionGUID="707cadb3-4ef5-4cd3-8dd2-cadfd243f5c8" CreationDate="2021-02-19T22:13:32.903" UserId="158" Text="From the [Wikipedia entry about Otrera][1], the founder of the Amazons:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One day Otreta and her women rebelled and took over the entire town and eventually all the towns surrounding. Otrera would march into neighboring towns liberate the women then slaughter and enslave the men. Otrera decided to flee the country with her people and **founded the capital city Sinope**, there she trained her armies and gathered recruits, while gradually expanding her territory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only websites I can find that mention this seem to be copy-pasted from Wikipedia (or vice versa). I can't find any mention of this when researching Sinope itself (modern-day Sinop, Turkey), and various articles about the Amazons mention Sinope in a list of cities founded by the Amazons, but not as their original capital.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The article also references Percy Jackson for some of its other claims, so I'm doubting its veracity, but I was curious if maybe it's just drawn from some lesser-known source.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otrera" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24091" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7884" RevisionGUID="707cadb3-4ef5-4cd3-8dd2-cadfd243f5c8" CreationDate="2021-02-19T22:13:32.903" UserId="158" Text="Is there any truth to the claim that the original home of the Amazons was Sinope, not Themiscyra?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24092" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7884" RevisionGUID="707cadb3-4ef5-4cd3-8dd2-cadfd243f5c8" CreationDate="2021-02-19T22:13:32.903" UserId="158" Text="|greek|amazons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24093" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7885" RevisionGUID="b32e8c8e-6080-4d8a-817e-ddad54d39431" CreationDate="2021-02-19T22:34:26.693" UserId="158" Text="Hades is generally believed to have been faithful to Persephone. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story of Minthe (which you mentioned as evidence of infidelity) isn't about Hades's infidelity, it's about his crazy ex-girlfriend. It's a myth specifically about Hades REFUSING to betray Persephone, even in the face of an ex-lover who wants him back.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Mint (Mintha), men say, was once a maid beneath the earth, a Nymphe of Kokytos (Cocytus), and she lay in the bed of Aidoneus [Hades]; but when he kidnapped the maid Persephone from the Aitnaian hill [Mount Etna in Sicily], then she complained loudly with overweening words and raved foolishly for jealousy, and Persephone in anger trampled upon her with her feet and destroyed her. For she had said that she was nobler of form and more excellent in beauty than dark-eyed Persephone and she boasted that Aidoneus would return to her and banish the other from his halls : such infatuation leapt upon her tongue. And from the earth spray the weak herb that bears her name.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Basically Hades used to be with Minthe, but when he married Persephone he broke it off. Minthe got pissed and wanted Hades to &quot;return to her,&quot; which necessarily means he was no longer with her, and started shit-talking Persephone, so Persephone kicked her ass and turned her into a plant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of course, Persephone had a few lovers of her own, so Hades's loyalty wasn't reciprocated. But I guess that's what you get for forcing a girl into an arranged marriage with her uncle..." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24095" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7886" RevisionGUID="7f50e47c-6c00-4e54-ab47-b62d3152fb20" CreationDate="2021-02-19T23:28:53.993" UserId="158" Text="In the absence of any statements to the contrary, I think it is safe to assume that demigods have normal human lifespans for people of their rank and profession (i.e. Bronze Age soldiers and royalty). I can't recall any myths that mention, for example, a demigod dramatically outliving their non-demigod spouses, the way that Arwen is foretold to outlive Aragorn in LOTR.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Worth mentioning: similar to modern superheroes, ancient Greek Heroes were known to get into some shenanigans (e.g. entering and returning from the Underworld, ascending Olympus to become a true god, etc) that can make it tricky to even calculate their age at all. (Is Captain America 100 years old, or does being frozen for decades mean he's still just in his 30s? Did Herakles die in his 70s, or does becoming a god not count as dying?) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ancient Greek myths also have fluid timelines, again similar to comic books, so you can't precisely date a Hero's lifespan based on external events, just like you can't pick a specific date for Batman's birth because his stories keep getting updated over time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But overall, it seems that demigods age and die at about the same speed as normal mortals, unless they are killed in battle or murdered." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24096" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7887" RevisionGUID="d98ef4ee-efe7-4bc2-b540-27ec551f3238" CreationDate="2021-02-20T01:31:35.120" UserId="7315" Text="David Braund in *Myth and Ritual at Sinope: From Diogenes the Cynic to Sanape the Amazon* and Askold Ivantchik in *[Les légendes de fondation de Sinope du Pont][1]* (in french) give thorough overviews on the foundation myths of Sinope (which are surprisingly rich). There are indeed some references to the Amazons, for example:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Sinope a polis named after one of the Amazons, dwelling nearby. Once indigenous&#xD;&#xA;Syrians inhabited it.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Pseudo-Scymnus 986-97&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Andron of Teos says that one of the Amazons, fleeing to Pontos (eis Ponton), married&#xD;&#xA;the king of that region, and because she drank too much wine she was called Sanape.&#xD;&#xA;Since heavy-drinking women are called Sanapai by the Thracians, a dialect that the&#xD;&#xA;Amazons use too, the city was called Sanape, and later by corruption, Sinope. The&#xD;&#xA;heavy-drinking Amazon left this city for Lytidas, as Hecataeus relates.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Scholiast on Apollonius Rhodius, 2. 946ff.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Having taken the city of Sinope Herakles expelled the Amazons and settled&#xD;&#xA;Greeks in it...   &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;IG XIV, 1293, lines 93-104&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is never hinted that the city of Sinope was founded by Otrera, or that it was the capital/original home of the Amazons.&#xD;&#xA;Also, both authors stress the fact that the best-established foundation myths of Sinope concern the [nymph Sinope][2], and not an amazon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So yeah, that Wikipedia passage seems dubious at best.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.persee.fr/doc/rea_0035-2004_1997_num_99_1_4675&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheSinope.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24097" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="7749" RevisionGUID="0a0dbfdb-5078-4732-8d4e-daf54d5e631b" CreationDate="2021-02-20T11:00:40.073" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="24098" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7888" RevisionGUID="22741b14-4104-4eba-bd1a-43bcd2236daf" CreationDate="2021-02-20T15:11:05.707" UserId="398" Text="The first strong parallel to come to mind is the Naga: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C4%81ga&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They are principally depicted in three forms: wholly human with snakes on the heads and necks, common serpents, or as half-human half-snake beings.[3] A female naga is a &quot;Nagi&quot;, &quot;Nagin&quot;, or &quot;Nagini&quot;. Nagaraja is seen as the king of nāgas and nāginis.[4] They are common and hold cultural significance in the mythological traditions of many South Asian and Southeast Asian cultures. They are the children of Rishi Kashyapa and Kadru.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some of the pictures show remarkable similarities, but what fascinates me is the parallel between the Echidna, who birthed many snake-monsters, and [Kadru](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kadru), who did the same. Despite the similarity of their names, they seem to be unrelated, with Echidna deriving from the PIE word **angwhi-* meaning snake, which wouldn't have given us *Kadru* in Sanskrit. (Not sure if it's related, but this [*kadru*](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%95%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%81) means brown. Any Sanskrit experts want to weigh in on whether it's a related word to the goddess?)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24099" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="2337" RevisionGUID="648c75ff-163a-414a-b0cf-1fabff776cf2" CreationDate="2021-02-20T22:00:30.040" UserId="-1" Comment="120" />
  <row Id="24100" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7889" RevisionGUID="0d49c85c-dd89-44db-8b3e-279d716cc203" CreationDate="2021-02-20T23:27:54.327" UserId="6984" Text="I am searching for background information on the ancient Egyptian goddess Nakith. Wikipedia says she's a goddess of the underworld. Apart from that I was unable to find more on the web, and Wikipedia references a book which is out of print. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does anybody know if she was a local goddess and therefore only worshipped in a certain region? If so, where? Additionally, any hints about her exact function in the underworld would be great." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24101" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7889" RevisionGUID="0d49c85c-dd89-44db-8b3e-279d716cc203" CreationDate="2021-02-20T23:27:54.327" UserId="6984" Text="Egyptian Goddess Nakith" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24102" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7889" RevisionGUID="0d49c85c-dd89-44db-8b3e-279d716cc203" CreationDate="2021-02-20T23:27:54.327" UserId="6984" Text="|egyptian|goddesses|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24103" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7890" RevisionGUID="8023dbce-2de9-4669-b9fc-2c4412a950c7" CreationDate="2021-02-21T07:54:13.063" UserId="7743" Text="we found this stylized world turtle flag and are wondering if it is anything &quot;real&quot; or just a modern artist version of the world turtle. Any ideas?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/wGA35.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24104" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7890" RevisionGUID="8023dbce-2de9-4669-b9fc-2c4412a950c7" CreationDate="2021-02-21T07:54:13.063" UserId="7743" Text="Is this stylized version of the world turtle part of any known lore?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24105" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7890" RevisionGUID="8023dbce-2de9-4669-b9fc-2c4412a950c7" CreationDate="2021-02-21T07:54:13.063" UserId="7743" Text="|runes|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24106" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7890" RevisionGUID="564cd221-0ee9-4cdf-88fb-00ef05f9e837" CreationDate="2021-02-21T12:00:05.463" UserId="53" Comment="Added image description - https://meta.stackexchange.com/q/144080/236563" Text="We found this stylized world turtle flag and are wondering if it is anything &quot;real&quot; or just a modern artist version of the world turtle. Any ideas?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Flag with turtle motif][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/wGA35.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24108" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4778" RevisionGUID="48759fbc-4835-4323-84a3-b829d8a20041" CreationDate="2021-02-21T20:14:16.907" UserId="2682" Comment="adjusted wording" Text="The following is a list of deities regarding whom I have found no occurrences of stories about them being unfaithful to their spouses.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;(It might be a noteworthy consideration that most of them are female deities.)&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sea-god **Nereus** and his wife the Oceanid **Doris**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sea-goddess **Eurybia**, wife of the Titan Creius&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Titaness **Tethys**, wife of her own brother Oceanus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Titaness **Mnemosyne**, Goddess of Memory, who, in Hesiod's *Theogony*, is Zeus's fifth wife &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Erebus**, the primaeval personification of darkness, who was married to the night-goddess Nyx&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hemera**, the primordial personification of daytime, who was married to Aether&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Uranus**, the original sky-god, who was married to his own mother Gaia, the Earth &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;*Sidenote 1:* The poetess Sappho says that Eros was the son of Uranus and Aphrodite, but Theoi.com interprets this as meaning that Aphrodite herself was born pregnant, with Eros in her womb, she herself having formed out of the severed genitalia of Uranus mingling with the salt-foam of the sea. Besides, the more common parentages of Eros do not involve Uranus.&lt;/sup&gt;   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The river-god **Hydaspes**, in India, who was married to the nymph Astris&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Arcadian river-god **Ladon**, who was married to Stymphalis&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Sicilian river-god **Anapus**, who, in Ovid's *Metamorphoses*, is married to the nymph Cyane&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A few Oceanids: the aforementioned sea-goddess Doris; **Electra** (wife of the sea-god Thaumas); **Meliboea** (wife of King Pelasgus of Pelasgia, which later became Arcadia); and the youngest Oceanid **Eidyia** (wife of King Aeetes of Colchis).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Iris**, wife of Zephyrus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hebe**, who married Heracles [Hercules] after he became a god&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Nereid **Thetis**, wife of the Myrmidon king Peleus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Nereid **Iphianassa**, wife of King Enydmion of Elis (though there are different versions of who this king's wife was).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Rhode**, wife of Helios&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Benthesicyme**, who married a king of Aethiopia [Ethiopia] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Nephele**, wife of the Boeotian king Athamas&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Sidenote 2:* Regarding Eros: in Book 32 of his *Dionysiaca*, Nonnus quotes Hera as devising an elaborate fiction by which to deceive Zeus. In it she says that Eros has become infatuated with the Oceanid Rhodope so much so that he has even abandoned his duties as the god of love.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Since Nonnus does not mention Psyche, who, besides that, appears to be a purely allegorical character invented by Apuleius, it is unclear whether Eros is at this point is to be understood as being married. The point might be moot, however, since the business with Rhodope could all be part of Hera's lie.&lt;/sub&gt;       &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Sidenote 3:* Algaia (or Aglaea) shouldn't be on your infidelity examples list, by the way. She was legitimately married to Hephaestus after he had divorced Aphrodite.&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24109" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7892" RevisionGUID="eea19bda-1901-4148-a3aa-c09ce0133bb3" CreationDate="2021-02-21T23:57:40.767" UserId="7315" Text="This seems like a modern reinterpretation of the [Lo Shu Square][1] using symbols from western alchemy. The Lo Shu Square is a magic 3x3 square of numbers which according to a Chinese legend appeared on the back of a turtle. See this picture for comparison with the one you posted:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the &quot;Earlier Heaven&quot; Taoist [Bagua][3], one can associate the numbers 1,3,7 and 9 appearing on the turtle's back to the elements Earth, Fire, Water and Sky. In the flag you posted the triangles are [Alchemical Symbols][4] for the same elements (with the correspondence Sky=Air), although not in the same order. I have no clue regarding the middle symbol, though. One guess, but this is just speculation, is that it could be a stylized [Yellow Dragon][5], associated with the center of the cosmos, and quintessence (the fifth element). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lo_Shu_Square&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/05CyX.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagua&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemical_symbol&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Dragon" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24110" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7893" RevisionGUID="6950a7a9-93e2-415e-9ecc-cb6f1133dd69" CreationDate="2021-02-22T12:21:15.463" UserId="5726" Text="To add on the answer by @Gullintani.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The middle sigil is Odins enchanted spear Gungnir. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA; &lt;sub&gt;[From the 18th century Icelandic manuscript NKS 1867 4to][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/7luER.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_Royal_Library,_MS_NKS_1867_4%C2%B0" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24111" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7894" RevisionGUID="852853d7-2b8e-4f2d-a8ac-94fb9d9d1de8" CreationDate="2021-02-22T12:36:20.487" UserId="5229" Text="The name that you saw was most likely supposed to be transliterated as Nȧkith. The letter ȧ was used for  in one older transliteration scheme of Egyptian, while [most transliteration schemes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transliteration_of_Ancient_Egyptian#Table_of_transliteration_schemes) transliterate the same letter as ı͗. The name in hieroglyphics is given as ( *nı͗kyṯ*) in the two below sources.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The image and the text around it are given in *The Egyptian Heaven and Hell*, vol. 1, p. [143](https://archive.org/details/theegyptianheave01budgiala/page/143/mode/1up):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He translates the text as:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The goddesses who hack at Āpep in the Tuat, who repulse (or, bring to nought) the affairs (or, matters) of the enemies of Rā. Those who are in this picture, and who hold knives, hack asunder Āpep in the Ṭuat each day&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The same text and image are given in *The Gods of the Egyptians*, vol. 1, p. [232](https://archive.org/details/cu31924092320500/page/n259/mode/2up), with more or less the same [image][1] and description (I removed the hieroglyphics from the quote, but they're present in the original):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Behind the monster serpent stand four goddesses, each armed with a huge knife, whose duty it is to guard the tombs of the four forms of Osiris; the names of the four goddesses are: — Ṭemṭith, Ṭenith, Nȧkith, and Hetemitet. Their duty was to drive away the enemies of Rā, and to hack in pieces with their awful knives the fiend Āpep every day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See either of the two books above for the context of the surrounding text and image.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This paper](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/331320879_The_Divine_Nik_and_its_Role_in_Egyptian_Theology) gives the meaning of her name (which is transliterated there as Nı͗kṯ) as &quot;punisher,&quot; and her function in the texts to punish Apophis (= Āpep). He also connects Nı͗kt to other gods of punishment such as Nı͗k.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MVD7k.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/BbCxT.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24112" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7895" RevisionGUID="5115a895-f602-462b-98c7-e5c302c085e1" CreationDate="2021-02-22T17:05:34.953" UserId="3076" Text="&gt; Tiamat is the Mesopotamian goddess associated with primordial chaos and the salt sea best known from the Babylonian epic Enuma Elish. - `ancient.eu`&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the religion of ancient Babylon, Tiamat is a primordial goddess of the sea, mating with Abzû, the god of the groundwater, to produce younger gods. She is the symbol of the chaos of primordial creation. She is referred to as a woman,[4] and described as &quot;the glistening one.&quot;[5] It is suggested that there are two parts to the Tiamat mythos, the first in which Tiamat is a creator goddess, through a sacred marriage between different waters, peacefully creating the cosmos through successive generations. In the second Chaoskampf Tiamat is considered the monstrous embodiment of primordial chaos. Some sources identify her with images of a sea serpent or dragon.[Wiki][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Matriarchal_Prehistory&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many sources that mentioned about her being relate to the sea, even salt sea. &#xD;&#xA;However, is she relate to sea at Persian Gulf or Mediterranean Sea. How was the perception of ancient Babylonian people toward sea? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24113" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7895" RevisionGUID="5115a895-f602-462b-98c7-e5c302c085e1" CreationDate="2021-02-22T17:05:34.953" UserId="3076" Text="Which 'Sea' that Tiamat is relate to?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24114" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7895" RevisionGUID="5115a895-f602-462b-98c7-e5c302c085e1" CreationDate="2021-02-22T17:05:34.953" UserId="3076" Text="|mesopotamia|babylonian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24115" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7895" RevisionGUID="0925d238-c7a7-4131-bc2f-9ff28380443e" CreationDate="2021-02-22T17:15:26.543" UserId="3076" Comment="added 185 characters in body; edited title" Text="There are many sources that mentioned about her being relate to the sea, even salt sea. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tiamat is the Mesopotamian goddess associated with primordial chaos and the salt sea best known from the Babylonian epic Enuma Elish. - [ancient.eu][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the religion of ancient Babylon, Tiamat is a primordial goddess of the sea, mating with Abzû, the god of the groundwater, to produce younger gods. She is the symbol of the chaos of primordial creation. She is referred to as a woman,[4] and described as &quot;the glistening one.&quot;[5] It is suggested that there are two parts to the Tiamat mythos, the first in which Tiamat is a creator goddess, through a sacred marriage between different waters, peacefully creating the cosmos through successive generations. In the second Chaoskampf Tiamat is considered the monstrous embodiment of primordial chaos. Some sources identify her with images of a sea serpent or dragon.[Wiki][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, Which sea she related to? Persian Gulf or Mediterranean Sea?. How was the perception of Ancient Babylonian people toward the sea? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And Formerly, she is just mother goddess which no mentioned about her appearance as being serpent at all? When and why she has been transformed in to serpent?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.ancient.eu/Tiamat/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Matriarchal_Prehistory" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24116" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="7895" RevisionGUID="0925d238-c7a7-4131-bc2f-9ff28380443e" CreationDate="2021-02-22T17:15:26.543" UserId="3076" Comment="added 185 characters in body; edited title" Text="Which 'Sea' that Tiamat is relate to? and Why she turned serpent?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24117" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7895" RevisionGUID="8da82aa1-460f-41cc-b120-a79755b1b78d" CreationDate="2021-02-22T18:49:25.703" UserId="5726" Comment="minor grammatical fixes" Text="There are many sources that mentioned about her being related to the sea, even the salt sea. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tiamat is the Mesopotamian goddess associated with primordial chaos and the salt sea best known from the Babylonian epic Enuma Elish. - [ancient.eu][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the religion of ancient Babylon, Tiamat is a primordial goddess of the sea, mating with Abzû, the god of the groundwater, to produce younger gods. She is the symbol of the chaos of primordial creation. She is referred to as a woman,[4] and described as &quot;the glistening one.&quot;[5] It is suggested that there are two parts to the Tiamat mythos, the first in which Tiamat is a creator goddess, through a sacred marriage between different waters, peacefully creating the cosmos through successive generations. In the second Chaoskampf Tiamat is considered the monstrous embodiment of primordial chaos. Some sources identify her with images of a sea serpent or dragon.[Wiki][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, Which sea is she related to? Persian Gulf or Mediterranean Sea?. How was the perception of Ancient Babylonian people toward the sea? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And Formerly, she is just mother goddess with no mention about her appearance as being serpent at all? When and why she has been transformed in to serpent?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.ancient.eu/Tiamat/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Matriarchal_Prehistory" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24118" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7896" RevisionGUID="922416c7-8e07-4f76-9ff6-b8c1fc961b14" CreationDate="2021-02-22T19:48:31.267" UserId="5726" Text="I will note that the poem contains no direct description of tiamat, and it has been *suggested* that in it she was conceived, not as a dragon, but as a woman. The evidence&#xD;&#xA;from sculpture and from cylinder-seals, however may he cited against this suggestion, as well as several phrases in the poem itsef &lt;sub&gt;[ Tabl. VI, 11. 97 ][1]*&lt;/sub&gt;. (But some [cilinders and reliefs][2] seem to be misinterpreted as Tiamat while they depict some other god or entity or her children).*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; It is true that in one of the new fragments of the poem Tiamat is referred to as sinnijatu, i.e. &quot;woman&quot; or &quot;female &quot; &lt;sub&gt;Tabl. II, 1.&lt;/sub&gt;, hut the context of this passage proves that the phrase is employed with reference to her sex and not to her form. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Enuma Elish begins with the creation of the universe, originally an undifferentiated mass of water swirling in chaos. The waters divided into fresh and salt. The freshwater formed the god Apsu and saltwater the goddess Tiamat; from their union were born the younger gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So she simply represents the sea, whether she is a specific sea is not mentioned. My own take om this is that Enuma Elish is thought to have been written before or during the time of Hammurabi, at which time the [Babylonian empire reached the Persian Gulf][3], so **a possibility** is that she represented that sea in particular but *I cannot be certain of it.* She simply is the sea, that big mass of salty undrinkable water. The main rivers of the Babylonian empire also empty in that same sea so Apsu and Tiamat meet near the sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for her description, [Enûma Elish][4] includes a thigh, tail, &quot;lower parts&quot;, a belly, lips, ribs, neck, skull, head, eyes, nostrils, mouth, and udder. She has blood, insides, arteries, and a heart. Below I have included a snippet from my source where multiple parts of her are described.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And the evil wind that was behind (him) he let&#xD;&#xA;&gt;loose in her face.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;97. As Tiamat opened **her mouth** to its full extent,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;98. He drove in the evil wind, while as yet she had&#xD;&#xA;&gt;not shut **her lips**.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;99. The terrible winds filled **her belly**,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;loo. And her courage was taken from her, and **her**&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**mouth** she opened wide.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;IOI. He seized the spear and burst **her belly**,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;102. He severed her inward parts, he **pierced (her)&#xD;&#xA;&gt;heart.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt;103. He overcame her and cut off her life ;&#xD;&#xA;[&lt;sub&gt; Luzacs Semitic Text and Translation Series (PDF) (Vol XII ed.). p. 150-line 122. (goes directly to pdf which can be downloaded at your leisure)&lt;/sub&gt;][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now this is probably not the description you're looking for so I will look further into her &quot;Dragon appearance&quot; for which I will use some snippets from Wikipedia (I am getting stressed for time so might finish it on another date).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The pdf I linked above talks more about the nuances of her portrayal as a dragon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some scholars clearly see her as a dragon while some disagree as also noted on wikipedia and their sources. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Tiamat is usually described as a sea serpent or dragon, although Assyriologist Alexander Heidel disagreed with this identification and argued that &quot;dragon form can not be imputed to Tiamat with certainty.&quot; Other scholars have disregarded Heidel's argument: Joseph Fontenrose in particular found it &quot;not convincing&quot; and concluded that &quot;there is reason to believe that Tiamat was sometimes, not necessarily always, conceived as a dragoness.&quot;&lt;sub&gt;Fontenrose, Joseph (1980). Python: a study of Delphic myth and its origins.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Enûma Elish states that Tiamat gave birth to dragons and serpents among a more general list of monsters including scorpion men and merpeople, but **does not identify her form as that of a dragon; however, other sources containing the same myth do refer to her as such**. &lt;sub&gt;King, Leonard William (1902). The Seven Tablets of Creation (Vol. II: Supplementary Texts). p. 117.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/enuma.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tiamat.JPG&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammurabi#/media/File:Hammurabi's_Babylonia_1.svg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/En%C5%ABma_Eli%C5%A1&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.etana.org/sites/default/files/coretexts/14907.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24119" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="7895" RevisionGUID="3e4ee58a-62f0-4f70-9073-862eca632d4b" CreationDate="2021-02-22T19:49:22.117" UserId="5726" Comment="edited title" Text="Which 'Sea' does Tiamat represent, and why did she turn into a serpent?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24120" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7897" RevisionGUID="23c43157-f37a-4ebd-90e0-08ec09dbedc6" CreationDate="2021-02-22T20:25:25.787" UserId="7481" Text="Though Typhon is addressed as being a Titan In the movies, Typhon was not a Titan in real mythology; merely a ferocious monster whom Gaia had given birth to long after giving birth to the twelve Titans. In other versions, he was said to be the god of windstorms and drought, but still a son of Gaia and Tartarus. In conclusion, Typhon is more Titan than god, but maybe a bit of both." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24122" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7896" RevisionGUID="00209966-baf8-4861-8999-ec45863d3ec6" CreationDate="2021-02-22T22:50:34.580" UserId="5726" Comment="edited body" Text="I will note that the poem contains no direct description of Tiamat, and it has been *suggested* that in it she was conceived, not as a dragon, but as a woman. The evidence&#xD;&#xA;from sculpture and from cylinder-seals, however may be cited against this suggestion, as well as several phrases in the poem itsef &lt;sub&gt;[ Tabl. VI, 11. 97 ][1]*&lt;/sub&gt;. (But some [cilinders and reliefs][2] seem to be misinterpreted as Tiamat while they depict some other god or entity or her children).*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; It is true that in one of the new fragments of the poem Tiamat is referred to as sinnijatu, i.e. &quot;woman&quot; or &quot;female &quot; &lt;sub&gt;Tabl. II, 1.&lt;/sub&gt;, hut the context of this passage proves that the phrase is employed with reference to her sex and not to her form. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Enuma Elish begins with the creation of the universe, originally an undifferentiated mass of water swirling in chaos. The waters divided into fresh and salt. The freshwater formed the god Apsu and saltwater the goddess Tiamat; from their union were born the younger gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So she simply represents the sea, whether she is a specific sea is not mentioned. My own take om this is that Enuma Elish is thought to have been written before or during the time of Hammurabi, at which time the [Babylonian empire reached the Persian Gulf][3], so **a possibility** is that she represented that sea in particular but *I cannot be certain of it.* She simply is the sea, that big mass of salty undrinkable water. The main rivers of the Babylonian empire also empty in that same sea so Apsu and Tiamat meet near the sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for her description, [Enûma Elish][4] includes a thigh, tail, &quot;lower parts&quot;, a belly, lips, ribs, neck, skull, head, eyes, nostrils, mouth, and udder. She has blood, insides, arteries, and a heart. Below I have included a snippet from my source where multiple parts of her are described.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And the evil wind that was behind (him) he let&#xD;&#xA;&gt;loose in her face.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;97. As Tiamat opened **her mouth** to its full extent,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;98. He drove in the evil wind, while as yet she had&#xD;&#xA;&gt;not shut **her lips**.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;99. The terrible winds filled **her belly**,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;loo. And her courage was taken from her, and **her**&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**mouth** she opened wide.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;IOI. He seized the spear and burst **her belly**,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;102. He severed her inward parts, he **pierced (her)&#xD;&#xA;&gt;heart.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt;103. He overcame her and cut off her life ;&#xD;&#xA;[&lt;sub&gt; Luzacs Semitic Text and Translation Series (PDF) (Vol XII ed.). p. 150-line 122. (goes directly to pdf which can be downloaded at your leisure)&lt;/sub&gt;][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now this is probably not the description you're looking for so I will look further into her &quot;Dragon appearance&quot; for which I will use some snippets from Wikipedia (I am getting stressed for time so might finish it on another date).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The pdf I linked above talks more about the nuances of her portrayal as a dragon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some scholars clearly see her as a dragon while some disagree as also noted on wikipedia and their sources. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Tiamat is usually described as a sea serpent or dragon, although Assyriologist Alexander Heidel disagreed with this identification and argued that &quot;dragon form can not be imputed to Tiamat with certainty.&quot; Other scholars have disregarded Heidel's argument: Joseph Fontenrose in particular found it &quot;not convincing&quot; and concluded that &quot;there is reason to believe that Tiamat was sometimes, not necessarily always, conceived as a dragoness.&quot;&lt;sub&gt;Fontenrose, Joseph (1980). Python: a study of Delphic myth and its origins.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Enûma Elish states that Tiamat gave birth to dragons and serpents among a more general list of monsters including scorpion men and merpeople, but **does not identify her form as that of a dragon; however, other sources containing the same myth do refer to her as such**. &lt;sub&gt;King, Leonard William (1902). The Seven Tablets of Creation (Vol. II: Supplementary Texts). p. 117.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/enuma.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tiamat.JPG&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammurabi#/media/File:Hammurabi's_Babylonia_1.svg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/En%C5%ABma_Eli%C5%A1&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.etana.org/sites/default/files/coretexts/14907.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24123" PostHistoryTypeId="52" PostId="7895" RevisionGUID="3d7e1868-3192-488f-bfac-c3fd754d0414" CreationDate="2021-02-23T01:24:57.117" />
  <row Id="24124" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7899" RevisionGUID="a1810b58-8be4-4d3e-9b2e-d6033c5aa7a4" CreationDate="2021-02-23T03:49:43.340" UserId="2682" Text="One might say that he is both, depending on a few different factors in question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Classification Issues**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Greco-Roman mythology the &quot;gods&quot; are not a special category in the same sense that the modern Western taxonomical terms &quot;species&quot; and &quot;race&quot; would entail. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Being a θεός (*theós*), &quot;god,&quot; is more a matter of status or class rather than &quot;tribe.&quot; Several mortal men and women, generally after their deaths, became some type or another of a *theós*, the prime example being the great hero Herakles [Hercules]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And further back in time from him, most of the Titans in fact fought on Zeus' side during the altercation he had with his father Kronos [Cronus]. In the new régime, they are classified as gods without much distinction from the &quot;non-Titans&quot; of the group, all these non-Titans being their children, cousins or nephews and nieces.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some of the primordial deities essentially *were* monsters. One of them, the sea-goddess Keto [Ceto], has a name that literally means &quot;Sea-Monster.&quot; The difference between a character like Keto and one like Typhon, otherwise known as Typhoeus, is basically political in nature. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Keto is not at odds with the Olympians, making her part of their social order, while Typhoeus, especially as narrated by Nonnus in his *Dionysiaca*, seeks to dismantle that order, primarily by overthrowing Zeus and releasing the imprisoned Titans from Tartaros [Tartarus], threatening to replace the male Olympians with them. Had Typhoeus achieved this he would unambiguously have become the chief god in exactly the same sense that Zeus was, and Kronos had been before Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In similarity to Typhoeus, six of his older half-brothers, the triplet Cyclopes and the triplet Hekatonkheires (Hundred-Handers),&lt;sup&gt;✭&lt;/sup&gt; were Gigantes who were also gods. Their main dissimilarity from Typhoeus, for the purposes of the question at hand, is that they were part of Zeus's administration.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Depending on the translation that one goes with, in *Theogony* 824, Hesiod says either that Typhoeus *had* the indefatigable feet of a powerful god (as if to describe him as only partly divine, from the ankles down), or that the giant himself *was* a powerful god, who had untiring feet.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the Homeric Hymn to Pythian Apollo, Hera gave birth to Typhoeus (called here Typhaon) basically in revenge for her husband Zeus having given birth to the goddess Athena, seemingly exclusively on his own steam. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At Athena's birth, Hera declared that she would, using alternative powers and unconventional contrivances, acquire the means to bear a son &quot;to be foremost among the deathless gods&quot;. The hymn, however, goes on to say that the son to whom Hera then gave birth was &quot;neither like the gods nor mortal men: baleful, cruel Typhaon... a plague to humankind.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus' *Bibliotheca* portrays Typhon as an immense monster, &quot;the largest and strongest of all of Ge's [*Gaia's*] children,&quot; who in form was &quot;a mixture of man and beast&quot;, having the shape of a man down to the thighs, but being so humongous that this head scraped the heavens above him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Dionysiaca* 1, Nonnus repeatedly refers to Typhon as a *Gígas* or *Gígantos*, commonly rendered into English as &quot;Giant.&quot; More or less directly, other writers, including Philostratus the Elder, Philostratus of Athens, Diodorus Siculus, and Ovid, state or imply that Typhon was one of the Gigantes.      &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;✭ The Cyclopes were worshipped with an altar at Corinth, and Hesiod's *Theogony* notes that these giants were &quot;exactly like the gods&quot; except in shape, particularly the single eyes possessed by each of them. Hesiod also describes the Hekatonkheires as subsisting on nectar and ambrosia in the same manner as the rest of the gods. They also appear to have been worshipped as a group of divinities called the Tritopatores.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Egyptian Typhon**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Ancient Greek interpretation of the old Egyptian myths, the most prominent deities—Ausar, Aset, Ḥor, Nebet-Het, and Seth—tend to retain their names as slightly Hellenised renditions thereof, the first four becoming, respectively, Osiris, Isis, Horus, and Nephthys.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For whatever reason, the fifth, Seth, is interpreted as Typhaon, or Typhon; and in the most famous Egyptian myth in which Seth is said to have killed and dismembered his own brother Ausar, and thereafter battled against Ausar's son Ḥor, the Greek versions generally have Osiris being slain by his brother &quot;Typhon.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are a few differences between the original Egyptian version of the myth and the Greek interpretations thereof, but in this instance, Typhon is undoubtedly a god, being the son and brother of other deities. Your own words may well be most appropriate to describe him as &quot;albeit a monstrous one&quot;, since the Greek version of the Egyptian story has some very strange quirks to it, apparently designed to explain why Typhon (i.e. Seth) is so weird and different from his siblings.   " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24128" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7901" RevisionGUID="48a7b91f-6215-4381-9c14-f52a4427dd8f" CreationDate="2021-02-23T04:03:33.353" UserId="7481" Text="Ragnorok is classified as &quot;The end&quot; in most Norse stories, but the myths don't actually see it as the end. In Norse Mythology everything would be cyclical, meaning that everything would happen over and over again which includes Ragnorok." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24132" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7903" RevisionGUID="706eba4e-6f0e-424d-b8d8-174bd7c348d7" CreationDate="2021-02-23T18:46:56.163" UserId="7481" Text="In myths, demigods normally live for the average human lifespan, but there is no riskier job than the one demigods have. The only demigod that actually had a happy ending was Perceus, but most of the other ones died younger.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24135" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7905" RevisionGUID="9d2b3c48-32aa-4ec4-9cb2-dc6ac8606265" CreationDate="2021-02-23T19:06:18.710" UserId="7481" Text="in greek mythology, the king of the titans, Chronos, carried a sickle. cronus, the harvesting god, carried a scythe. The grim reaper was a combination of the two and carried a sickle." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24137" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7896" RevisionGUID="c0fac8d2-862c-45a3-85c4-8a0df2dc4adb" CreationDate="2021-02-23T19:56:56.797" UserId="5726" Comment="Removed a big mistake I made pointed out by Ilmari Karonen, will rephrase when I have time" Text="The Enuma Elish begins with the creation of the universe, originally an undifferentiated mass of water swirling in chaos. The waters divided into fresh and salt. The freshwater formed the god Apsu and saltwater the goddess Tiamat; from their union were born the younger gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So she simply represents the sea, whether she is a specific sea is not mentioned. My own take om this is that Enuma Elish is thought to have been written before or during the time of Hammurabi, at which time the [Babylonian empire reached the Persian Gulf][3], so **a possibility** is that she represented that sea in particular but *I cannot be certain of it.* She simply is the sea, that big mass of salty undrinkable water. The main rivers of the Babylonian empire also empty in that same sea so Apsu and Tiamat meet near the sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for her description, [Enûma Elish][4] includes a thigh, tail, &quot;lower parts&quot;, a belly, lips, ribs, neck, skull, head, eyes, nostrils, mouth, and udder. She has blood, insides, arteries, and a heart. Below I have included a snippet from my source where multiple parts of her are described.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And the evil wind that was behind (him) he let&#xD;&#xA;&gt;loose in her face.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;97. As Tiamat opened **her mouth** to its full extent,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;98. He drove in the evil wind, while as yet she had&#xD;&#xA;&gt;not shut **her lips**.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;99. The terrible winds filled **her belly**,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;loo. And her courage was taken from her, and **her**&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**mouth** she opened wide.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;IOI. He seized the spear and burst **her belly**,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;102. He severed her inward parts, he **pierced (her)&#xD;&#xA;&gt;heart.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt;103. He overcame her and cut off her life ;&#xD;&#xA;[&lt;sub&gt; Luzacs Semitic Text and Translation Series (PDF) (Vol XII ed.). p. 150-line 122. (goes directly to pdf which can be downloaded at your leisure)&lt;/sub&gt;][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now this is probably not the description you're looking for so I will look further into her &quot;Dragon appearance&quot; for which I will use some snippets from Wikipedia (I am getting stressed for time so might finish it on another date).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The pdf I linked above talks more about the nuances of her portrayal as a dragon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some scholars clearly see her as a dragon while some disagree as also noted on wikipedia and their sources. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Tiamat is usually described as a sea serpent or dragon, although Assyriologist Alexander Heidel disagreed with this identification and argued that &quot;dragon form can not be imputed to Tiamat with certainty.&quot; Other scholars have disregarded Heidel's argument: Joseph Fontenrose in particular found it &quot;not convincing&quot; and concluded that &quot;there is reason to believe that Tiamat was sometimes, not necessarily always, conceived as a dragoness.&quot;&lt;sub&gt;Fontenrose, Joseph (1980). Python: a study of Delphic myth and its origins.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Enûma Elish states that Tiamat gave birth to dragons and serpents among a more general list of monsters including scorpion men and merpeople, but **does not identify her form as that of a dragon; however, other sources containing the same myth do refer to her as such**. &lt;sub&gt;King, Leonard William (1902). The Seven Tablets of Creation (Vol. II: Supplementary Texts). p. 117.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/enuma.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tiamat.JPG&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammurabi#/media/File:Hammurabi's_Babylonia_1.svg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/En%C5%ABma_Eli%C5%A1&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.etana.org/sites/default/files/coretexts/14907.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24138" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7906" RevisionGUID="7447f3a9-5352-4ead-97c8-25aac9f63faa" CreationDate="2021-02-23T20:57:51.617" UserId="2682" Text="**Definitions**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Presumably by &quot;demigods&quot; you are referring to the relatively modern term as taken to denote a character from Greco-Roman mythology who is the offspring of a deity and of a human being.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Ancient Greek *hēmítheos* and the Latin *semideus*, from which we get the English &quot;demigod,&quot; does literally mean &quot;half-god,&quot; but this is misleading. The ancient usage of the term does not refer to a mortal who is literally half divine based on his/her parentage. Rather it is a term for a lower-tier divinity, a sort of minor god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Ancient Greek religion one can sketch out roughly three different levels of divinities who were honoured with cults: the *theoí* (gods); the *hēmítheoí*; and the *Hḗrōes* (Heroes). For the most part, the *theoí* were born immortal and had always been &quot;the gods.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Hēmítheoí* and Heroes were two different classes of divinities who typically tended to be dead humans who were recognised for their great deeds in life and therefore considered, in the afterlife, to have become powerful entities although lesser than the *theoí*. And it did so happen that a majority of them happened to have at least one divine parent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover the differences among these three different levels was not a permanent configuration, as demonstrated by the myth in which Herakles [Heracles] starts out as a Hero and then works his way up gradually to become a *hēmítheos* and eventually a full-blown *theós*, or, perhaps, more strictly speaking, he is considered to inhabit all three categories at the same time. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In one story, after Herakles’ suicide, his remains could not be found&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on his funeral pyre, so his nephew Iolaos became the first to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sacrifice to the dead hero as a *hemitheos* (demigod). &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to Pausanias’ *Description of Greece*, Herakles had a son&#xD;&#xA;&gt; named Phaistos [Phaestus] who became king of the city of Sikyon. When&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Phaistos first arrived at Sikyon he found that the locals were making&#xD;&#xA;&gt; offerings to Herakles as a hero. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; Phaistos then refused to do anything of the kind, but insisted on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; sacrificing to him as to a *theos*. Even at the present day [`100s AD, over a thousand years after Herakles’ death`] the Sikyonians,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; slaying a lamb and burning the thighs upon the altar, eat some of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; meat as part of a victim given to a *theos*, while the rest they offer&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; as to a hero.    &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; [2.10.1]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;~ *from [my Answer to another&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Question](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2666/2682)*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Lifespan**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as I am aware, the only extant ancient source that mentions anything about Herakles' age at death is Book 2 of Clement of Alexandria's *Exhortation to the Greeks*, which says that Herakles had lived for fifty-two years when his body burned on Mt Oita [Oeta]. (The ambiguous wording in the passage might possibly be implying that Clement's source for this detail is either one of the Peripatetic philosophers Hieronymus or Dicaearchus.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even going by the more modern Riordanesque definition of &quot;demigod,&quot; there is nothing particularly special about the lifespans of the children born from unions between humans and the Greco-Roman gods. For the most part, generally speaking, in terms of capabilities, durability and nature, they are just as mortal, vulnerable and human as all other ordinary men and women, pretty much indistinguishable from them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Among these mortal progeny of the gods there are indeed some who stand out in a few different ways, but they are exceptions. Especially as far as lifespan is concerned, this is best illustrated by another son of Zeus, namely King Sarpedon of Lycia, who was slain in the Trojan War, despite Zeus's own desire to keep him alive. According to Apollodorus' *Bibliotheca* 3.1.2, Zeus had created a special dispensation for him to live for three generations, thus making him most likely the oldest person to fight in that war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Glitches in the Timeline**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even ancient mythographers seemed to be a little bit incredulous at the idea that Sarpedon, who should have died something like a hundred years before the Trojan War, was one of the warriors defending Troy. This gave rise to two different versions of the character. In Homer's *Iliad* he does not seem to be a supernaturally old man, being the son of Zeus by Bellerophontes' daughter Laodameia. There is, however, also the version in which he is the son of Zeus and Europa, and thus one of the brothers of King Minos of Crete. In yet one other variant the Sarpedon who dies at Troy is the grandson of Minos' brother Sarpedon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This mythology is somewhat replete with chronological discrepancies like this one. Minos himself is supposed to have died only one generation before the Trojan War. However, if he was the son of Europa, then by my calculations we would have to have been at least two hundred years old at death. Again, certain ancient writers, being aware of the issue, came up with similar explanations as for those of his brother Sarpedon. The Minos who died a generation before the war at Troy, according to them, is the *grandson* of a more ancient Minos, who in turn was the son of Zeus and Europa.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On occasion, Herakles/Hercules also encounters individuals from long before his time in places like Egypt and India. The Roman writer Cicero explains this away by asserting that there a number of different previous characters called Hercules, and some of them were children of Zeus (or rather of his Roman counterpart Jupiter) by yet *other* women.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It would be a clever hack to these anachronisms to deduce that these &quot;demigods,&quot; because of their descent from the gods, are just that long-lived, and therefore could last a couple of centuries before growing old and perishing, but no ancient source makes such a claim. Hence all mortals, whether their parents are immortal or divine or not, are portrayed as suffering the same rate of decay as everybody else, unless extracurricular intervention is made on their behalf.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Minimum* Life Expectancy**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whatever age at which a regular garden-variety human can die is the same age at which a &quot;demigod&quot; can end his life, which is why Herakles' stepmother Hera tried to assassinate him when he was still a baby. Although that attempt failed, there are, in fact, quite gruesome stories featuring the deaths of infant children of certain deities. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In one, an Argive princess named Psamathe was raped by the god Apollon [Apollo] and bore him a son named Linos [Linus]. Being unmarried and still living in her father's house, Psamathe had managed to keep the birth a secret, but fearful of whatever her father would do, she abandoned the newborn outside where he was torn apart by the king's sheepdogs. (This tragedy is part of a story told to explain how a temple of Apollon came to be built on Mt Gerania.) " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24139" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7906" RevisionGUID="7f2adc1c-6c74-43c9-a949-37b957acc21d" CreationDate="2021-02-23T21:58:34.040" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="**Definitions**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Presumably by &quot;demigods&quot; you are referring to the relatively modern term as taken to denote a character from Greco-Roman mythology who is the offspring of a deity and of a human being.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Ancient Greek *hēmítheos* and the Latin *semideus*, from which we get the English &quot;demigod,&quot; does literally mean &quot;half-god,&quot; but this is misleading. The ancient usage of the term does not refer to a mortal who is literally half divine based on his/her parentage. Rather it is a term for a lower-tier divinity, a sort of minor god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Ancient Greek religion one can sketch out roughly three different levels of divinities who were honoured with cults: the *theoí* (gods); the *hēmítheoí*; and the *Hḗrōes* (Heroes). For the most part, the *theoí* were born immortal and had always been &quot;the gods.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Hēmítheoí* and Heroes were two different classes of divinities who typically tended to be dead humans who were recognised for their great deeds in life and therefore considered, in the afterlife, to have become powerful entities although lesser than the *theoí*. And it did so happen that a majority of them happened to have at least one divine parent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover the differences among these three different levels was not a permanent configuration, as demonstrated by the myth in which Herakles [Heracles] starts out as a Hero and then works his way up gradually to become a *hēmítheos* and eventually a full-blown *theós*, or, perhaps, more strictly speaking, he is considered to inhabit all three categories at the same time. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In one story, after Herakles’ suicide, his remains could not be found&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on his funeral pyre, so his nephew Iolaos became the first to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sacrifice to the dead hero as a *hemitheos* (demigod). &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to Pausanias’ *Description of Greece*, Herakles had a son&#xD;&#xA;&gt; named Phaistos [Phaestus] who became king of the city of Sikyon. When&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Phaistos first arrived at Sikyon he found that the locals were making&#xD;&#xA;&gt; offerings to Herakles as a hero. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; Phaistos then refused to do anything of the kind, but insisted on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; sacrificing to him as to a *theos*. Even at the present day [`100s AD, over a thousand years after Herakles’ death`] the Sikyonians,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; slaying a lamb and burning the thighs upon the altar, eat some of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; meat as part of a victim given to a *theos*, while the rest they offer&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; as to a hero.    &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; [2.10.1]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;~ *from [my Answer to another&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Question](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2666/2682)*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Lifespan**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as I am aware, the only extant ancient source that mentions anything about Herakles' age at death is Book 2 of Clement of Alexandria's *Exhortation to the Greeks*, which says that Herakles had lived for fifty-two years when his body burned on Mt Oita [Oeta]. (The ambiguous wording in the passage might possibly be implying that Clement's source for this detail is either one of the Peripatetic philosophers Hieronymus or Dicaearchus.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even going by the more modern Riordanesque definition of &quot;demigod,&quot; there is nothing particularly special about the lifespans of the children born from unions between humans and the Greco-Roman gods. For the most part, generally speaking, in terms of capabilities, durability and nature, they are just as mortal, vulnerable and human as all other ordinary men and women, pretty much indistinguishable from them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Among these mortal progeny of the gods there are indeed some who stand out in a few different ways, but they are exceptions. Especially as far as lifespan is concerned, this is best illustrated by another son of Zeus, namely King Sarpedon of Lycia, who was slain in the Trojan War, despite Zeus's own desire to keep him alive. According to Apollodorus' *Bibliotheca* 3.1.2, Zeus had created a special dispensation for him to live for three generations, thus making him most likely the oldest person to fight in that war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Glitches in the Timeline**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even ancient mythographers seemed to be a little bit incredulous at the idea that Sarpedon, who should have died something like a hundred years before the Trojan War, was one of the warriors defending Troy. This gave rise to two different versions of the character. In Homer's *Iliad* he does not seem to be a supernaturally old man, being the son of Zeus by Bellerophontes' daughter Laodameia. There is, however, also the version in which he is the son of Zeus and Europa, and thus one of the brothers of King Minos of Crete. In yet one other variant the Sarpedon who dies at Troy is the grandson of Minos' brother Sarpedon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The mythology is somewhat replete with chronological discrepancies like this one. Minos himself is supposed to have died only one generation before the Trojan War. However, if he was the son of Europa, then by my calculations we would have to have been at least two hundred years old at death. Again, certain ancient writers, being aware of the issue, came up with similar explanations as for those of his brother Sarpedon. The Minos who died a generation before the war at Troy, according to them, is the *grandson* of a more ancient Minos, who in turn was the son of Zeus and Europa.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On occasion, Herakles/Hercules also encounters individuals from long before his time in places like Egypt and India. The Roman writer Cicero explains this away by asserting that there were a number of different previous characters called Hercules, and some of them were children of Zeus (or rather of his Roman counterpart Jupiter) by yet *other* women.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It would be a clever hack to these anachronisms to deduce that these &quot;demigods,&quot; because of their descent from the gods, are just that long-lived, and therefore could last a couple of centuries before growing old and perishing, but no ancient source makes such a claim. Hence all mortals, whether their parents are immortal or divine or not, are portrayed as suffering the same rate of decay as everybody else, unless extracurricular intervention is made on their behalf.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Minimum* Life Expectancy**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whatever age at which a regular garden-variety human can die is the same age at which a &quot;demigod&quot; can end his life, which is why Herakles' stepmother Hera tried to assassinate him when he was still a baby. Although that attempt failed, there are, in fact, quite gruesome stories featuring the deaths of infant children of certain deities. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In one, an Argive princess named Psamathe was raped by the god Apollon [Apollo] and bore him a son named Linos [Linus]. Being unmarried and still living in her father's house, Psamathe had managed to keep the birth a secret, but fearful of what her father might do, she abandoned the newborn outside where he was torn apart by the king's sheepdogs. (This tragedy is part of a story told to explain how a temple of Apollon came to be built on Mt Gerania.) " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24140" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7907" RevisionGUID="f01f58b7-20a1-4173-8960-f6ac992147ce" CreationDate="2021-02-23T22:56:29.853" UserDisplayName="user64" Text="In the myth of the Basilisk, the monster was born from the egg layed by a rooster. And there were medieval processes, where a rooster was condemned to the death for laying an egg.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But how it was believed that rooster layed the egg? Was it the result of a sodomy? Or there is other explanation?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24141" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7907" RevisionGUID="f01f58b7-20a1-4173-8960-f6ac992147ce" CreationDate="2021-02-23T22:56:29.853" UserDisplayName="user64" Text="What makes rooster laying eggs?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24142" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7907" RevisionGUID="f01f58b7-20a1-4173-8960-f6ac992147ce" CreationDate="2021-02-23T22:56:29.853" UserDisplayName="user64" Text="|medieval-europe|basilisk|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24143" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7908" RevisionGUID="ad19923d-0eeb-4ce8-80e2-1fc36c793b9e" CreationDate="2021-02-24T02:57:18.973" UserId="7315" Text="According to E.V. Walter's article &quot;Nature on Trial: The Case of the Rooster That Laid an Egg&quot;, such medieval animal trials where very similar in spirit to witch trials: the guilty animals were often believed to be possessed by evil spirits, demons, or the Devil himself. In &quot;Legal Lore: Curiosities of Law and Lawyers&quot;, William Andrews writes about a particularly famous trial agains a cock which laid eggs:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ... Satan employed witches to hatch such eggs, from which proceeded winged serpents most dangerous to mankind&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The poor cock was convicted, and condemned to death, not as a cock, however, but as a sorcerer, or perhaps a devil, in the form of a cock...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore, it seems that there was no attempt at explaining in a rational or concrete way the acts against the natural order for which the animals were punished. They were simply &#xD;&#xA;the supernatural results of sorcery, or the work of Satan himself." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24144" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7909" RevisionGUID="c9479202-582b-4908-9c69-b35949a27e97" CreationDate="2021-02-24T18:07:36.203" UserId="7315" Text="The short answer would be: in the available sources (Snorri's Prose Edda and a couple of poems from the Poetic Edda) there is no mention of a second Ragnarok and the event is presented as unique, as implied also by the etymology &quot;fate of the gods&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are however hints of a cyclical nature of the Norse cosmos, which might suggest the possibility of a repetition of the history of the universe, including the final eschatological event. Such hints are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The survival of Lif and Lifthrasir, who will hide in a tree (probably Yggdrasill), and will repopulate the world of humans. This seems a lot like a second creation myth of mankind, a copy of the myth of the creation Askr and Embla from wood.&#xD;&#xA;- The post-Ragnarok pantheon, which can be seen as a double of the pre-Ragnarok one, with Thor's sons carrying Mjolnir, Odin's sons Vithar and Vali taking his place, and Baldr and Hodr coming back from Hel.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But the passage that has been used the most to argue for a cyclical nature of the Norse universe is the following, taken from the Voluspa (translation by Carolyne Larrington):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There comes the shadow-dark dragon flying,&lt;br&gt; the gleaming serpent, up from Dark-of-moon Hills;&lt;br&gt; Nidhogg flies over the plain, in his pinions&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;he carries corpses; now she will sink down.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This passage is the last stanza of the Voluspa, and it comes right after the description of Gimle, the glorious hall where all surviving gods will dwell after Ragnarok. The interpretation of this stanza has been much debated. If we retain the reading of the main available manuscripts, the sentence &quot;now she will sink down&quot; should refer to the seeress (the narrator of the Voluspa), who is about to disappear after having completed her prophecy. According to this intepretation, the reference to Nidhogg has been interpreted as an indication that even in the post-Ragnarok world evil will be present, and possibly another clash between the forces of good and evil will have to occur. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But this is just one possible interpretation of the stanza. Nidhogg could just be a narrative device that brings us back to the pre-Ragnarok world of the seeress, where evil still exists. This is what Larrington says about the stanza:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the final verse the sinister dragon Nidhogg is seen as the seeress sinks&#xD;&#xA;out of her trance. Does evil still exist in the new world, or have we returned&#xD;&#xA;to the present where the dragon is a portent of Ragnarok?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover, another school of thought renders the final sentence as &quot;now he will sink&quot; (see Lee M. Hollander's translation of the Voluspa). In this case it would not refer to the seeress, but to the serpent itself, who disappears in the new order of things.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would like to add one more argument against the cyclicity of the Norse universe. The post-Ragnarok era is presented as an out-of-time golden age, in which &quot;crops will grow unsown&quot; (from Anthony Faulkes's translation of the Prose Edda), &quot;all evil will be healed&quot; (Larrington's translation of the Voluspa), and the gods will &quot;live forever in ease and bliss&quot; (Hollander's translation of the Voluspa). Such a description is in deep contrast with the pre-Ragnarok world, where both gods and men are in constant struggle with the forces of evil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24145" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7910" RevisionGUID="33fe6954-7271-48e9-9dc3-6c61eb69cf1b" CreationDate="2021-02-24T23:21:53.317" UserId="7315" Text="From the entry on the Irish heroine *Ailinn* in Patricia Monaghan's &quot;Encyclopedia of Celtic Mythology and Folklore&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One of Ireland's greatest romances revolves around this princess of the southern Province of Leinster and her lover Baile Binnbhéarlach (&quot;sweet-spoken Baile&quot;), prince of Ulster in the northeast. As each traveled separately to a trysting place midway between their realms, a maleficent fairy told the prince—falsely—that his lover was dead, whereupon he died of grief at Baile’s Strand, a seashore near today’s Dundalk [...]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarly, from the same entry in Peter Berresford Ellis's &quot;Dictionary of Celtic Mythology&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The daughter of Laoghaire Mac Fergus Fairge (in another&#xD;&#xA;version, the daughter of Eoghan Mac Daithi). The granddaughter of the&#xD;&#xA;king of Leinster who falls in love with Baile, son of Buain and heir to the&#xD;&#xA;kingdom of Ulster. Ulster and Leinster were deadly enemies, and here we&#xD;&#xA;have a “Romeo and Juliet” tragedy. Aillinn and Baile arranged to meet on a&#xD;&#xA;shore near Dun Dealgan (Dundalk). Baile reached the appointed place first.&#xD;&#xA;A stranger approached and told him that Aillinn had died when she was&#xD;&#xA;prevented from coming to the meeting place. Baile dies from a broken&#xD;&#xA;heart. The stranger then appears to Aillinn and tells her of Baile’s own&#xD;&#xA;death. She dies of grief. We are not told who the malevolent stranger is&#xD;&#xA;apart from the fact that he is one of the gods. Baile is buried at Traigh&#xD;&#xA;mBaile (Baile’s Strand) and a yew tree grows from his grave; from Aillinn’s&#xD;&#xA;grave grows an apple tree. The poets of Ulster and Leinster cut branches&#xD;&#xA;from the trees and carved the story of the tragedy in Ogham on the wands&#xD;&#xA;made from the branches. According to the end of the story, 200 years later,&#xD;&#xA;when Art the Lonely was High King, the Ogham wands were gathered from&#xD;&#xA;Ulster and Leinster and taken to the Tech Screpta, or library, at Tara. As the&#xD;&#xA;wands were put into the library they sprang together and could not be&#xD;&#xA;separated." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24146" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7911" RevisionGUID="895fb300-b194-4148-a64b-81375c15934c" CreationDate="2021-02-25T15:16:14.007" UserId="7315" Text="It is very likely that you dind't imagine it: in the folklore of the British Isles beings of different shapes (often shape-shifting) who foretell one's death are extremely common. What you describe seems like a variation (perhaps very local?) of various legendary creatures attested in Northern England. Here are few examples which are somewhat reminiscent of your description:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - *Padfoot* (from The Encyclopedia of Celtic" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24147" PostHistoryTypeId="12" PostId="7911" RevisionGUID="abf60f7d-8b6f-45b7-a87f-8aea4c3968b3" CreationDate="2021-02-25T15:16:24.683" UserId="7315" Comment="via Vote" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:7710,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Gullintanni&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="24148" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7911" RevisionGUID="1bf74ee1-9611-4b26-be10-e40adf14dca5" CreationDate="2021-02-25T15:44:19.953" UserId="7315" Comment="added 1673 characters in body" Text="It is very likely that you dind't imagine it: in the folklore of the British Isles beings of different shapes (often shape-shifting) who foretell one's death are extremely common. What you describe seems like a variation (perhaps very local?) of various legendary creatures attested in Northern England. Here are few examples which are somewhat reminiscent of your description:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - ****Padfoot**** (from &quot;The Encyclopedia of Celtic Mythology and Folklore&quot; by Patricia Monaghan):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Yorkshire, this strange donkey-sized  creature appeared as an omen of death; it looked like an amorphous shaggy ball with eyes or a wooly white dog.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - ****Barguest**** (from &quot;A Dictionary of English Folklore&quot; by Jacqueline Simpson and Steve Roud):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This is the name for a&#xD;&#xA;particularly alarming shape-changing *bogey*&#xD;&#xA;animal in the folklore of Yorkshire, Lancashire, and other northern areas, which might be encountered at stiles and in dark lanes, or near churchyards. Sometimes it was only heard, not seen; it howled and shrieked, and to hear it was an *omen* of someone’s approaching death—possibly one’s own.&#xD;&#xA; - **Guytrash** (from &quot;A Dictionary of English Folklore&quot; by Jacqueline Simpson and Steve Roud):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A frightening shapechanging&#xD;&#xA;apparition, usually in animal form,&#xD;&#xA;in the folklore of northern England. [...] (It) appears mostly as ‘a black dog dragging a chain, a dusky calf, nay, even a rolling stone’ [...] a North-of-England spirit, called a Gytrash, which, in the form of horse, mule or&#xD;&#xA;large dog, haunted solitary ways [...] Another possible form is that of a large cow; to see it is an omen of death, for oneself or another.&#xD;&#xA; - **Shotton Dobby** (from &quot;A Dictionary of English Folklore&quot; by Jacqueline Simpson and Steve Roud):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In County Durham, the Shotton Dobby appeared&#xD;&#xA;at births or deaths in the village, as a goose,&#xD;&#xA;dog, horse, donkey, or cow.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately, none of these completely matches your description, but it should give you an idea of how abundant such folk motifs are in Northern England, and how likely it is that the myth you heard belongs to this cathegory." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24149" PostHistoryTypeId="13" PostId="7911" RevisionGUID="5f8a9909-419c-4f65-8e6b-8bb315e9ac07" CreationDate="2021-02-25T15:44:27.030" UserId="7315" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:7710,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Gullintanni&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="24150" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7911" RevisionGUID="6336ed84-cd37-4ba8-a4a5-0a354c527adb" CreationDate="2021-02-25T17:52:00.160" UserId="7315" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="It is very likely that you didn't imagine it: in the folklore of the British Isles beings of different shapes (often shape-shifting) who foretell one's death are extremely common. What you describe seems like a variation (perhaps very local?) of various legendary creatures attested in Northern England. Here are few examples which are somewhat reminiscent of your description:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - ****Padfoot**** (from &quot;The Encyclopedia of Celtic Mythology and Folklore&quot; by Patricia Monaghan):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Yorkshire, this strange donkey-sized  creature appeared as an omen of death; it looked like an amorphous shaggy ball with eyes or a wooly white dog.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - ****Barguest**** (from &quot;A Dictionary of English Folklore&quot; by Jacqueline Simpson and Steve Roud):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This is the name for a&#xD;&#xA;particularly alarming shape-changing *bogey*&#xD;&#xA;animal in the folklore of Yorkshire, Lancashire, and other northern areas, which might be encountered at stiles and in dark lanes, or near churchyards. Sometimes it was only heard, not seen; it howled and shrieked, and to hear it was an *omen* of someone’s approaching death—possibly one’s own.&#xD;&#xA; - **Guytrash** (from &quot;A Dictionary of English Folklore&quot; by Jacqueline Simpson and Steve Roud):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A frightening shapechanging&#xD;&#xA;apparition, usually in animal form,&#xD;&#xA;in the folklore of northern England. [...] (It) appears mostly as ‘a black dog dragging a chain, a dusky calf, nay, even a rolling stone’ [...] a North-of-England spirit, called a Gytrash, which, in the form of horse, mule or&#xD;&#xA;large dog, haunted solitary ways [...] Another possible form is that of a large cow; to see it is an omen of death, for oneself or another.&#xD;&#xA; - **Shotton Dobby** (from &quot;A Dictionary of English Folklore&quot; by Jacqueline Simpson and Steve Roud):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In County Durham, the Shotton Dobby appeared&#xD;&#xA;at births or deaths in the village, as a goose,&#xD;&#xA;dog, horse, donkey, or cow.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately, none of these completely matches your description, but it should give you an idea of how abundant such folk motifs are in Northern England, and how likely it is that the myth you heard belongs to this category." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24151" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7881" RevisionGUID="7561dab9-7086-48b5-9714-f4f39cc32ea1" CreationDate="2021-02-25T21:50:36.417" UserId="1317" Comment="added 279 characters in body" Text="&lt;h2&gt;Set&lt;/h2&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;is a possibility, if you're,willing to stretch the meaning of &quot;dog&quot; a bit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Set](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_(deity)) is one of the oldest gods in Egyptian mythology. He is usually represented by a mythical _sha_ or &quot;[Set-animal](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_animal)&quot; &amp;#x130e9; which appears to be some sort of canid in general, combined with some other supernatural characteristics. As time passed, Set himself had an anthropomorphic form with the head of a _sha_. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One problem with this relates to the &quot;evilness&quot; of Set. Although the [Osiris myth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris_myth) where Set murders and mutilates Osiris dates from the 24th Century BCE, Set was also a protector of Ra from the chaos god Apep. Some Pharaohs such as the 19th Dynasty [Seti I](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seti_I) and II chose Set-based names instead of Horus or Amun-based ones.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Set didn't really become an &quot;evil&quot; deity until the [11th century BCE](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Intermediate_Period_of_Egypt) and onwards. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Traditionally the god of foreigners, Set became associated with foreign oppressors (the Nubians, Assryians, and Persians) who successively conquered Egypt. This, combined with his murder of Osiris and defeat by Horus, caised him to be regarded as a god of evil. By the Hellenistic age, the Greeks had sybcretized him with the monster Typhon. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24152" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7912" RevisionGUID="9855948b-e427-4734-8b77-474d6c94fb96" CreationDate="2021-02-26T11:58:06.473" UserId="5726" Text="I was strolling through the [Wikipedia][1] page on bronze and found a picture of bronze nails from Roman times. Under the [picture][2] is a text saying &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Roman bronze nails with magical signs and inscriptions, 3rd-4th century AD&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What would a Roman want to achieve with these writings? I know they sometimes used nails on a [curse tablet][3], is there a source describing these practices and their reasoning?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Wikipedia page on Curse Tablets only makes mentions of nails being used to pierce said tablets but not that they themselves are used like a tablet.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze?wprov=sfla1&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File%3AMagical_Roman_Nails.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_tablet" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24153" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7912" RevisionGUID="9855948b-e427-4734-8b77-474d6c94fb96" CreationDate="2021-02-26T11:58:06.473" UserId="5726" Text="What would a Roman want to achieve with writing inscriptions and magical signs on bronze nails?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24154" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7912" RevisionGUID="9855948b-e427-4734-8b77-474d6c94fb96" CreationDate="2021-02-26T11:58:06.473" UserId="5726" Text="|roman|magic|rituals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24155" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7881" RevisionGUID="959d76f5-8b86-498d-979c-9c558b8934f4" CreationDate="2021-02-26T12:00:38.283" UserId="5726" Comment="minor typo corrections" Text="&lt;h2&gt;Set&lt;/h2&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;is a possibility, if you're,willing to stretch the meaning of &quot;dog&quot; a bit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Set](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_(deity)) is one of the oldest gods in Egyptian mythology. He is usually represented by a mythical _sha_ or &quot;[Set-animal](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_animal)&quot; &amp;#x130e9; which appears to be some sort of canid in general, combined with some other supernatural characteristics. As time passed, Set himself had an anthropomorphic form with the head of a _sha_. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One problem with this relates to the &quot;evilness&quot; of Set. Although the [Osiris myth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris_myth) where Set murders and mutilates Osiris dates from the 24th Century BCE, Set was also a protector of Ra from the chaos god Apep. Some Pharaohs such as the 19th Dynasty [Seti I](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seti_I) and II chose Set-based names instead of Horus or Amun-based ones.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Set didn't really become an &quot;evil&quot; deity until the [11th century BCE](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Intermediate_Period_of_Egypt) and onwards. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Traditionally the god of foreigners, Set became associated with foreign oppressors (the Nubians, Assyrians, and Persians) who successively conquered Egypt. This, combined with his murder of Osiris and defeat by Horus, caused him to be regarded as a god of evil. By the Hellenistic age, the Greeks had syncretized him with the monster Typhon. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24156" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7913" RevisionGUID="da84686f-09eb-4c1f-ba79-a53bd1db9bbe" CreationDate="2021-02-26T14:06:41.023" UserId="7315" Text="I suggest you take a look at [Nails for the dead: a polysemic account of an ancient funerary practice][1] by Silvia Alfayé. The paper focuses on the use of nails in Roman funerary practices, but in section 3 she offers a nice overview on the ritual/magical uses of nails in general, including the inscribed bronze nails you are asking about, which she describes as:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These are the so-called *chiodi magici*, which are&#xD;&#xA;10–20cm long, made of bronze or iron, decorated with geometrical&#xD;&#xA;patterns, sigla and/or *charakteres*, and show no signs of wear.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She then lists various possible uses which have been suggested for them: as tools of divination, as votive objects, as amulets. It is even suggested that some of them were used to cure epilepsy, using a technique cited by Pliny, or that they were just more sophisticated versions of simpler, non-inscribed funerary nails.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.academia.edu/362361/Nails_for_the_dead_a_polysemic_account_of_an_ancient_funerary_practice" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24157" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7914" RevisionGUID="38d2e78a-e6cf-47a0-9234-2457b9b99550" CreationDate="2021-02-26T23:57:17.217" UserId="6996" Text="Some people here are speaking about Raganarok being cyclical. That's definitely one interpretation, but another interpretation that I was impressed by was that it already happened, that Ragnarok is a story of how our world came to be. Think of it, the man and woman who repopulate the world after taking shelter under Yggdrasil sound a lot like Adam and Eve." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24158" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7915" RevisionGUID="bc397733-d459-4469-be93-5e12f2d9a9bd" CreationDate="2021-02-27T00:04:23.980" UserId="6996" Text="I have heard of different cultures writing magical spells on building materials so that the building can be protected and blessed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Think of it this way. You could have a priest come in and bless your whole building. You could have a priest individually bless every part of the building. The latter might make it even better, right—more meticulous? Even so, how long will these methods of warding off demons last? What if the priest dies, or what if the demon didn't hear what the priest said? For the best protection, you can protect every piece of your house with magical writing." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24160" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7917" RevisionGUID="faecdb02-afea-4cf7-b049-9b63465d4fa3" CreationDate="2021-02-28T16:58:08.800" UserId="7769" Text="If Aphrodite is the daughter of Ouranos and Gaia, why is she not a Titaness, Giantess, Erinye, or Melia? Is there a specific reason for her to be a goddess if all other gods are descendans of Cronus and Rheia?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24161" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7917" RevisionGUID="faecdb02-afea-4cf7-b049-9b63465d4fa3" CreationDate="2021-02-28T16:58:08.800" UserId="7769" Text="Why is Aphrodite a goddess?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24162" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7917" RevisionGUID="faecdb02-afea-4cf7-b049-9b63465d4fa3" CreationDate="2021-02-28T16:58:08.800" UserId="7769" Text="|greek|aphrodite|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24163" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7917" RevisionGUID="7805dc8b-b8b3-4ba6-b03d-199e06d31df4" CreationDate="2021-03-01T13:35:49.987" UserId="5726" Comment="minor typo correction" Text="If Aphrodite is the daughter of Ouranos and Gaia, why is she not a Titaness, Giantess, Erinye, or Melia? Is there a specific reason for her to be a goddess if all other gods are descendants of Cronus and Rheia?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24164" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7918" RevisionGUID="9f69bb21-c9a0-4059-81dc-6cd84d01b2f6" CreationDate="2021-03-02T00:44:37.210" UserId="398" Text="She isn't the child of Ouranos and Gaia. [There are two chief myths to her birth.][1] The first and oldest is found in Homer, where she is the daughter of Zeus and Dione. As the daughter of Zeus and another god, she is fully divine.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod in his *Theogony* instead makes her the daughter of Ouranos, but not of Gaia. Instead he was born when his castrated testicles fell into the sea. This is an etymological *aetion* connecting her name to sea-foam ([ἀφρός, *aphros*](https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=afros&amp;la=greek#lexicon)). Hesiod's *Theogony* likely comes after Homer's *Iliad*, though that is a much debated topic. (In particular, West and Janko place Hesiod first.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, your assumption isn't true. Athena, Apollo, Artemis, or Dionysus were the children of Cronus and Rhea, yet all are considered gods. In fact, all of the above would be &quot;gods.&quot; Titans, too. What makes the [Dodecatheon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Olympians), the pantheon of twelve gods, *Olympians* is that they lived on Olympus. Hades, the brother of Zeus (and Poseidon, Hera, Hestia, and Demeter) did not live on Olympus, so he does not have that designation. Aphrodite does, so she's Olympian.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greeks also weren't too big of sticklers on this point. Greek mythology is not a cohesive whole, but in constant flux. With each new poet, various traditions became codified, but they often conflicted. This is just one of those times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Aphrodite.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24166" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7920" RevisionGUID="93181d3b-99d0-4013-91df-c8bf23f4f306" CreationDate="2021-03-02T15:41:22.700" UserId="7778" Text="It has been equated by many to the Viking Berserkers who became like mad beasts, biting on their shield rims, howling madly and impervious to sounds even though they went into battle unarmed and even shirtless (i.e. Bare Shirts). As in both cases some sort of France effect, perhaps aided by drugs, was involved. It can't be overlooked at the base of the exaggerated descriptions were how the warriors themselves felt under the fate induced. Then, too, think of news descriptions of drug addicts impervious to police restraints and tasers. However, finally, part of the descriptions were shared by other ritual figures, such as druids similarly taking on weird postures and facial distortions when uttering curses or satires. Lastly, the spiked hair and other affects may have been part of the champion warriors expected appearance. Celtic warriors, for instance, often fought naked and spiked their hair with lime and did other cosmetic things like paint their bodies. When the formerly invincible hero Cuchulain is beaten in single combat his vanquished cuts off his golden locks. An act so humiliating some liken it to being raped.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24167" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7921" RevisionGUID="5ad80527-6e5c-4f49-8772-a9cde32ff2b3" CreationDate="2021-03-02T19:05:44.843" UserId="5603" Text="Found it! And it is indeed from Iain M. Banks, in The Player Of Games.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A colonel (Traff) commanding a war was on the brink of defeating a capital city, who surrendered on condition that their library (Urutypaig Library) be preserved. Traff's Emperor insisted that it be destroyed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...Traff knew that giving your word was a sacred thing; nobody would ever trust him again if he went back on it.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Traff already knew what he was going to do. He solved the problem by shuffling the library, sorting every word in it into alphabetical order and every pixel of every illustration into order of colour, shade and intensity. The original microfiles were wiped and re-recorded with volumes upon volumes of 'the's, 'it's and 'and's; the illustrations were fields of pure colour.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There were riots, of course, but Traff was in control by then, and as he explained to the incensed and - as it turned out, literally - suicidal guardians of the library, and to the Empire's Supreme Court, he had kept his word about not actually destroying or taking as booty a single word, image or file.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not quite down to the letter as I thought, but pretty close. Should have gone in literature after all, I suppose." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24169" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7922" RevisionGUID="bb2057ab-43fb-4b31-aa16-570f64200a5f" CreationDate="2021-03-04T08:06:00.627" UserId="7781" Text="Perhaps if you go by some long lost Indo-European root you can argue they are related, but then you could argue Greek and Slavic are related too. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Its actually really hard to connect Celtic mythology to itself never mind other mythologies. Brythonic and Gaelic are hard to turn into one narrative as they are both reflections of a much older and long lost Celtic root. This is because Celtic is a very broad term. When you say Norse you are being way more specific, but to compare to Celtic you would really need to say Germanic. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But the worlds are different, the foundation myths are different, the gods are very different, the philosophies and afterlife are very different and the apocalypse is very different. There might be a few point here and there where a story seems a little similar " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24175" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5197" RevisionGUID="7ac8a1ca-3bbc-44ea-8986-de873f10e9c9" CreationDate="2021-03-05T21:06:30.620" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="24176" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7924" RevisionGUID="aec84ca1-0ef8-4e52-b1c3-3315f0f02841" CreationDate="2021-03-06T00:28:23.763" UserId="7787" Text="I'm a writer working in a book and I need a list of animals (or creatures) for a fantasy book. To give you an idea of what I intend I already use the animal signs of the Chinese Zodiac in an idea with each one corresponding to a different god of a different pantheon, another idea handles the twelve signs of the Western Zodiac but with monsters that a heroe needs to fight, and another uses the 12 animals of Xinyiquan for another idea. But, I still one more list, preferable not with the number 12 (but would not matter if that's the case).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It also doesn't matter if they are other thing than animals, for example gods, mythological creatures or even elements as far as they are seven at the minimum. Thanks in advance" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24177" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7924" RevisionGUID="aec84ca1-0ef8-4e52-b1c3-3315f0f02841" CreationDate="2021-03-06T00:28:23.763" UserId="7787" Text="List of animals (or other creatures) for literary Worldbuilding" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24178" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7924" RevisionGUID="aec84ca1-0ef8-4e52-b1c3-3315f0f02841" CreationDate="2021-03-06T00:28:23.763" UserId="7787" Text="|comparative|animals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24180" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7926" RevisionGUID="101b5006-030e-4e95-bf9f-6f2e422160b1" CreationDate="2021-03-06T15:41:21.890" UserId="7315" Text="All I can think of right now are several groups of female deities that appear in various Indo-European mythologies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The best-known ones are the nine [Muses][1] and the seven [Pleiades][2] from Greek Mythology. But there are also the [nine daughters of Ægir and Rán][3] in Norse myth, and the seven daughters of the Sea of Irish folklore. These last ones are rather obscure Irish goddesses who are invoked in an incantation (translated [here][4]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muses&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleiades_(Greek_mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Daughters_of_%C3%86gir_and_R%C3%A1n&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/cetnad-e.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24181" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7927" RevisionGUID="a93933d4-df83-4903-8714-421ebc3735e3" CreationDate="2021-03-06T16:13:09.557" UserId="7780" Text="I am planning on reading the Epic Cycle. Apart from the Iliad and Odyssey the original texts are only fragmentary. I have found reconstructions of the Cypria and Telegony by D.M. Smith.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there commentary or interpretation on the Aethiopis, Little Iliad, Iliou persis or Nostoi allowing you to glean more than from a first inspection of the fragments?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24182" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7927" RevisionGUID="a93933d4-df83-4903-8714-421ebc3735e3" CreationDate="2021-03-06T16:13:09.557" UserId="7780" Text="Has there been a reconstruction of the Aethiopis, Little Iliad, Iliou persis or Nostoi?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24183" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7927" RevisionGUID="a93933d4-df83-4903-8714-421ebc3735e3" CreationDate="2021-03-06T16:13:09.557" UserId="7780" Text="|greek|trojan-war|epic-poetry|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24187" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7929" RevisionGUID="2f509168-aac8-435a-93eb-e0c22801f3ea" CreationDate="2021-03-06T17:42:34.507" UserId="7780" Text="&#xD;&#xA;I am beginning to study ancient greek mythology, and I am wondering if there is such a book list, preferably by a classics professor or someone very knowledgeable about the subject. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If there is no such study guide, then is there a scholarly introduction to ancient greek mythology, which goes in depth into giving and discussing primary sources (it would be helpful if the book put the myths in internal chronology as well, as in things like Perseus was great-grandfather of Heracles and so forth).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24188" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7929" RevisionGUID="2f509168-aac8-435a-93eb-e0c22801f3ea" CreationDate="2021-03-06T17:42:34.507" UserId="7780" Text="Is there a scholarly study guide for ancient greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24189" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7929" RevisionGUID="2f509168-aac8-435a-93eb-e0c22801f3ea" CreationDate="2021-03-06T17:42:34.507" UserId="7780" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24190" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7930" RevisionGUID="880e8289-6cad-4c5b-958b-830fbe55783c" CreationDate="2021-03-06T18:49:40.283" UserId="7315" Text="There's a nice little book by Malcolm Davies (St John's College, Oxford) titled &quot;The Greek Epic Cycle&quot;, which deals exactly with what you are asking for. Here's the table of contents of the edition I have:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1. The Epic Cycle&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2. The Titanomachy&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 3. The Oedipodeia&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4. The Thebais&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 5. The Epigoni&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 6. The Cypria&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 7. The Aethiopis&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 8. The Little Iliad&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 9. The Sack of Troy&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 10. The Returns Home&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 11. The Telegony&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Bearing in mind that &quot;The Sack of Troy&quot; and &quot;The Returns Home&quot; are just alternative titles for &quot;Iliou Persis&quot; and &quot;Nostoi&quot; respectively, it contains commentaries on all the fragments you asked about. Note however that this book is just a commentary, and does not contain the full translated texts (in fact it was originally meant as a companion to Davies's &quot;Epicorum Graecorum Fragmenta&quot;, which contains all the translated fragments but unfortunately is really hard to find nowadays). My recommendation is to pair it with a good translation of the Epic Cycle, like Martin L. West's &quot;Greek Epic Fragments from the Seventh to the Fifth Centuries BC&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Davies also wrote a few individual books on specific texts: &quot;The Cypria&quot;, &quot;The Theban Epics&quot;, and &quot;The &lt;i&gt;Aethiopis&lt;/i&gt;: Neo-Neoanalysis Reanalyzed&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Classical scholar Martin L. West also wrote a more in-depth commentary on the Epic Cycle titled &quot;The Epic Cycle: A Commentary on the Lost Troy Epics&quot;, with the disadvantage that it's quite expansive, and that, weirdly, all fragments are referenced in the original language: no translation is offered. One has either to be fluent in ancient greek, or to pair it with a translation like the above-mentioned one by West himself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My recommendation is to start off with Davies, and move on to West once you are more confident with the subject." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24197" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7929" RevisionGUID="f22b32c2-7161-4dde-a165-e31d27126ac1" CreationDate="2021-03-07T11:47:20.313" UserId="7780" Comment="added 10 characters in body" Text="&#xD;&#xA;I am beginning to study ancient greek mythology, and I am wondering if there is such a book list, preferably by a classics professor or someone very knowledgeable about the subject. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If there is no such study guide, then is there a scholarly introduction to ancient greek mythology, which goes in depth into giving and discussing primary sources (it would be helpful if the book put the myths in internal chronology as well, e.g. Perseus was great-grandfather of Heracles, so Perseus should be covered first).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24198" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7933" RevisionGUID="3e72d01b-f660-408f-822e-40225cf8786c" CreationDate="2021-03-07T14:41:41.390" UserId="398" Text="There are literally hundreds of books on the topic, but the best one for serious work is Timothy Gantz's *Early Greek Myth*. This book goes through the earliest sources for the myths and chronicles their development over time. He even covers artistic representations.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would not necessarily call it an &quot;introduction,&quot; as it is a proper academic resource, but if you want to get to the original sources fast, this is your best bet.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Incidentally, the book is somewhat internally chronological, i.e. Perseus is covered before Heracles' labors, but the chapters will cover lineages as a whole, so if you read it front-to-back (instead of using it as a source book), you'll read about the Seven Against Thebes before reading about Tantalus. There are excellent genealogical tables in the back though to help guide you to what came first." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24200" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7929" RevisionGUID="a926ec12-85f7-4bb3-9249-38403abbad17" CreationDate="2021-03-07T17:00:19.243" UserId="7780" Comment="added 45 characters in body; edited title" Text="&#xD;&#xA;I am beginning to study ancient greek mythology, and I am wondering if there is such a book list, preferably by a classics professor or someone very knowledgeable about the subject. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If there is no such study guide (in the form of a book list), then is there a book instead, a scholarly introduction to ancient greek mythology, which goes in depth into giving and discussing primary sources (it would be helpful if the book put the myths in internal chronology as well, e.g. Perseus was great-grandfather of Heracles, so Perseus should be covered first).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24201" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="7929" RevisionGUID="a926ec12-85f7-4bb3-9249-38403abbad17" CreationDate="2021-03-07T17:00:19.243" UserId="7780" Comment="added 45 characters in body; edited title" Text="Is there a scholarly study guide, in the form of a book list, for ancient greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24202" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7929" RevisionGUID="71a0e3de-c9cd-485f-8710-b73b7d1787aa" CreationDate="2021-03-07T17:10:10.563" UserId="7780" Comment="added 7 characters in body; edited title" Text="&#xD;&#xA;I am beginning to study ancient greek mythology, and I am wondering if there is such a list of works, preferably by a classics professor or someone very knowledgeable about the subject. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If there is no such study guide (where primary works are discussed), then is there a book instead, a scholarly introduction to ancient greek mythology, which goes in depth into giving and discussing primary sources (it would be helpful if the book put the myths in internal chronology as well, e.g. Perseus was great-grandfather of Heracles, so Perseus should be covered first).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24203" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="7929" RevisionGUID="71a0e3de-c9cd-485f-8710-b73b7d1787aa" CreationDate="2021-03-07T17:10:10.563" UserId="7780" Comment="added 7 characters in body; edited title" Text="Is there a scholarly study guide, where primary works are discussed, for ancient greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24204" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7929" RevisionGUID="c4ae1803-155a-403d-8e5f-76048289e263" CreationDate="2021-03-07T17:25:55.123" UserId="7780" Comment="added 7 characters in body; edited title" Text="I am beginning to study ancient greek mythology, and I am searching for a study guide which goes in depth into giving and discussing primary sources. It would be helpful if the study guide put the works in internal chronology as well, e.g. Perseus was great-grandfather of Heracles, so Perseus should be covered first.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24205" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="7929" RevisionGUID="c4ae1803-155a-403d-8e5f-76048289e263" CreationDate="2021-03-07T17:25:55.123" UserId="7780" Comment="added 7 characters in body; edited title" Text="Is there a scholarly study guide, primarily involving primary works being discussed, for ancient greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24206" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7929" RevisionGUID="fe374075-ebe9-4398-8ce6-59e3c4fe5dcb" CreationDate="2021-03-07T17:45:43.140" UserId="7780" Comment="deleted 44 characters in body" Text="I am beginning to study ancient greek mythology, and I am searching for an introductory study guide which goes in depth into giving and discussing primary sources. It would be helpful if the study guide put the works in internal chronology as well, e.g. Cypria before Iliad.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24207" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="7929" RevisionGUID="fe374075-ebe9-4398-8ce6-59e3c4fe5dcb" CreationDate="2021-03-07T17:45:43.140" UserId="7780" Comment="deleted 44 characters in body" Text="Is there an introductory scholarly study guide, primarily involving primary works being discussed, for ancient greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24208" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7930" RevisionGUID="13b2d988-355c-456a-b92e-57923d1abc48" CreationDate="2021-03-07T17:59:43.387" UserId="7315" Comment="added 207 characters in body" Text="There's a nice little book by Malcolm Davies (St John's College, Oxford) titled &quot;The Greek Epic Cycle&quot;, which deals exactly with what you are asking for. Here's the table of contents of the edition I have:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1. The Epic Cycle&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2. The Titanomachy&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 3. The Oedipodeia&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4. The Thebais&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 5. The Epigoni&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 6. The Cypria&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 7. The Aethiopis&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 8. The Little Iliad&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 9. The Sack of Troy&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 10. The Returns Home&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 11. The Telegony&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Bearing in mind that &quot;The Sack of Troy&quot; and &quot;The Returns Home&quot; are just alternative titles for &quot;Iliou Persis&quot; and &quot;Nostoi&quot; respectively, it contains commentaries on all the fragments you asked about. Note however that this book is just a commentary, and does not contain the full translated texts (in fact it was originally meant as a companion to Davies's &quot;Epicorum Graecorum Fragmenta&quot;, which contains all the translated fragments but unfortunately is really hard to find nowadays). My recommendation is to pair it with a good translation of the Epic Cycle, like Martin L. West's &quot;Greek Epic Fragments from the Seventh to the Fifth Centuries BC&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Davies also wrote a few individual books on specific texts: &quot;The Cypria&quot;, &quot;The Theban Epics&quot;, and &quot;The &lt;i&gt;Aethiopis&lt;/i&gt;: Neo-Neoanalysis Reanalyzed&quot;. You can read them for free on the website of the Harvard [Center for Hellenistic Studies][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Classical scholar Martin L. West also wrote a more in-depth commentary on the Epic Cycle titled &quot;The Epic Cycle: A Commentary on the Lost Troy Epics&quot;, with the disadvantage that it's quite expansive, and that, weirdly, all fragments are referenced in the original language: no translation is offered. One has either to be fluent in ancient greek, or to pair it with a translation like the above-mentioned one by West himself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My recommendation is to start off with Davies, and move on to West once you are more confident with the subject.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**EDIT:** Included link to three of Davies's books.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://chs.harvard.edu/authors/malcolm-davies/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24210" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7929" RevisionGUID="ff475e69-8458-4bff-94c9-ca800ed7d1b5" CreationDate="2021-03-07T20:51:56.530" UserId="7780" Comment="added 69 characters in body" Text="I am beginning to study ancient greek mythology, and I am searching for a study guide, as described in the question, which goes in depth into giving and discussing primary sources. It would be helpful if such a study guide was by a classics professor, and the study guide put the works in internal chronology as well, e.g. Cypria before Iliad.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24211" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="2291" RevisionGUID="15ffc838-a366-41e3-8a6f-f79f58250a9d" CreationDate="2021-03-08T00:10:40.563" UserId="398" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;C. M. Weimer&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="24212" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7929" RevisionGUID="97b193f0-a4cf-43d9-842c-4e5931e41c31" CreationDate="2021-03-08T12:44:43.293" UserId="7780" Comment="deleted 11 characters in body" Text="I am beginning to study ancient greek mythology, and I am searching for a study guide, as described in the question, which goes in depth into discussing primary sources. It would be helpful if such a study guide was by a classics professor, and the study guide put the works in internal chronology as well, e.g. Cypria before Iliad.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24218" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7934" RevisionGUID="d3e14bf3-4590-4db6-8a13-6f20c0f8224c" CreationDate="2021-03-08T20:01:03.677" UserDisplayName="user2352714" Text="Stories of changelings and faeries in Scandinavia and western Europe are often regarded by modern scholars as a &quot;just so&quot; story that ancient peoples used to try and explain autism. The traits that folklore often lists as indicative of being a changeling or a faerie in disguise often read like a laundry list of symptoms for Autism Spectrum Disorder: atypical behavior for children of their developmental stage, unusual or inappropriate social behavior, difficulty or dislike of lying, eternal youth or otherwise appearing &quot;elfin&quot; or baby-faced (autistic people typically show less wrinkles as they age because they don't stretch their facial skin as much), are rigidly obsessed with keeping of one's word, often prefer being in nature or around animals to people, and exhibit hypersensitivity to physical stimuli that make no sense to neurotypical individuals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, I was wondering if **there are any folktales in non-Western European/Scandinavian cultures that could be attributed as attempts by these cultures to explain autism spectrum disorder?** [Studies of autism indicate that it's present][1] [in all populations around the globe][2], so it's not unique to western and northern European populations (or post-industrial cultures) and ancient people would have encountered autistic individuals in their daily lives. I know that many cultures with shamanistic traditions often treated autistic symptoms as signs that individuals were spirit-touched, marked to be shamans, etc., but such a judgement could be based on a wide range of behaviors and signs and was not unique to autism. [Similar judgements are made in cultures that don't have animistic beliefs][3], but again the &quot;symptoms&quot; are very generic compared to how closely changeling myths hew to modern diagnoses of autism. There are [changeling-analogous myths][4] in Poland and Africa, but neither of these mythical beings exhibit traits similar to autism spectrum disorder. Similarly, other cultural disorders (for lack of a better term) attributed to being possessed by a spirit or demon like [wendigo psychosis][5] or [kitsune-tsuki][6] don't resemble autism spectrum disorder in their etiology at all. I have been unable to find any other folkloric beings that seem like distorted versions of people with autism.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.statista.com/statistics/676354/autism-rate-among-children-select-countries-worldwide/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.axios.com/most-of-the-worlds-autistic-children-live-in-countries-with-few-resources-b9ec6d04-8adf-4ce9-ac87-3eb476c4ca87.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_madness&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Changeling#Africa&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendigo#Wendigo_psychosis&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsune#Kitsunetsuki" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24219" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7934" RevisionGUID="d3e14bf3-4590-4db6-8a13-6f20c0f8224c" CreationDate="2021-03-08T20:01:03.677" UserDisplayName="user2352714" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24220" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7934" RevisionGUID="d3e14bf3-4590-4db6-8a13-6f20c0f8224c" CreationDate="2021-03-08T20:01:03.677" UserDisplayName="user2352714" Text="Is there any folklore used to &quot;explain&quot; autism in non-European cultures similar to changeling myths in Western Europe and Scandinavia?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24221" PostHistoryTypeId="36" PostId="7934" RevisionGUID="6a513729-d3e6-461c-80e9-ae9b47c888f3" CreationDate="2021-03-09T06:09:18.867" UserId="-1" Comment="from https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/63125/is-there-any-folklore-used-to-explain-autism-in-non-european-cultures-similar" />
  <row Id="24229" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="7897" RevisionGUID="e9a5e598-7515-43c3-afce-89150231b6d9" CreationDate="2021-03-09T06:13:31.683" UserId="108" Comment="122" />
  <row Id="24234" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="5493" RevisionGUID="e4257cb9-6715-4031-8ce5-7f104a99f6df" CreationDate="2021-03-09T06:14:58.470" UserId="108" Comment="123" />
  <row Id="24235" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7924" RevisionGUID="1b62be1d-4cf3-4e11-8fc3-1536cda8147a" CreationDate="2021-03-09T06:23:43.577" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 196 characters in body; edited title" Text="I'm a writer working in a book and I need a set of creatures for a fantasy book. To give you an idea of what I intend I already use the animal signs of the Chinese Zodiac in an idea with each one corresponding to a different god of a different pantheon, another idea handles the twelve signs of the Western Zodiac but with monsters that a heroe needs to fight, and another uses the 12 animals of Xinyiquan for another idea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But, I still one more set. Are there any traditions with a like the above, that numbers more than 7?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24236" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="7924" RevisionGUID="1b62be1d-4cf3-4e11-8fc3-1536cda8147a" CreationDate="2021-03-09T06:23:43.577" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 196 characters in body; edited title" Text="Besides the Chinese and Western Zodiacs, are there other folk traditions with a different set of creatures?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24237" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="7924" RevisionGUID="ef3c1901-65f5-419c-8a0e-0d8832fa5d91" CreationDate="2021-03-09T11:41:18.357" UserId="-1" Comment="105" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;C. M. Weimer&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:1241,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ken Graham&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:5726,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Tom Sol&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:7710,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Gullintanni&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="24239" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7935" RevisionGUID="4a915f0a-8b16-4fe4-9442-98b45074d9a1" CreationDate="2021-03-09T14:31:45.977" UserId="7796" Text="Some time ago, I read the story about Jason.&#xA;During his trip, he and the crew met a people used to hang up dead bodies on trees' branch.&#xA;&#xA;Who are they?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24240" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7935" RevisionGUID="4a915f0a-8b16-4fe4-9442-98b45074d9a1" CreationDate="2021-03-09T14:31:45.977" UserId="7796" Text="Hang up cadavers" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24241" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7935" RevisionGUID="4a915f0a-8b16-4fe4-9442-98b45074d9a1" CreationDate="2021-03-09T14:31:45.977" UserId="7796" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24242" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7936" RevisionGUID="6a2b65a3-db03-4efc-9a6f-1f77329aa21b" CreationDate="2021-03-09T15:17:27.630" UserId="7315" Text="They are the Colchians, i.e. the inhabitants of Colchis, a region on the eastern coast of the Black Sea, and the mythical destination of Jason and the Argonauts in their search for the Golden Fleece. Here's the passage in Apollonius Rhodius's &quot;Argonautica&quot; (translation by E. V. Rieu) that details the funerary practice you are referring to:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Here osiers and willows stand in rows, with corpses dangling on ropes from their highest branches. To this day the Colchians would think it sacrilege to burn the bodies of their men. They never bury them or raise a mound above them, but wrap them in untanned oxhide and hang them up on trees at a distance from the town. Thus, since it is their custom to bury women. earth and air play equal parts in the disposal of their dead." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24243" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7937" RevisionGUID="1bc3d826-870a-4187-8011-c4e4f6854762" CreationDate="2021-03-10T10:34:24.380" UserId="7800" Text="The celts, norse, germanic, and gauls can all be traced back to same basic origin at very different times in migrations to the north and back down. The times they overlap have long periods of time between and the similarities mostly reside in the more nomadic tribes. like many beliefs they slowly change through regime changes. Like most all regions through time regime changes have people who question the changes the new leaders and the ones who mange to leave the region  to keep the origins of their faith the same they travel long distances. Inevitably through time and generations the spoken stories ( as pretty much all nomadic northern Europeans at that time had no true written language) there were still slight changes over time for thousands of years. The reason there are some times similarities that occasionally pop up through some cultures are brief encounters with these tribes whom are there ancestors passing back through areas that settled and developed more advanced ways to record their beliefs. The places that had less change in the original beliefs would have common origins. The misconceptions that make it easy to think they all come from different areas originally is just as easy as it is to anyone who only goes by tv or movies and believe that all norse were vikings when they were a very small percentage. At the end of the day the Roman's inhabited England far before Anglo-Saxon, who were also remnants of christianized Germania tribes and used to use Britain as housing and teaing ground for the Roman wealthy that had large teaing compounds for their gladiators of which many were Celt or gaul. Lots of the escaped to the far regions of Britain which were unsettled and not explored by Rome so they were able to start their own settlements and what later became the Welsh and Scotland were considered later in time once Roman's abandoned England after the times of gladiators passed and Christians believed they had to spread their religion as far as they could reach began to settle in the parts of Britain closest to Spain and France, they then began to extend west and north running into Celtics tribes they deemed pegans, and unconvertable tried to force them Into Christianity but were unable to match their knowledge of the land and fighting tactics but a wall and Considered everything north of that eventually scottland some where they wouldn't venture, once the vikings (explorers/raiders) of the norse and Danes landed there and worked most of the British coast they had encounters with celts and there again small similarities in beliefs crossed paths and again once they moved on to explore near by Ireland. Trying to pin point when and where they started the origins of their initial beliefs would look like and bunch of line going back and forth, in and out overlapping hundreds of times with no way to tell the starting point. However at something they all started from one place or a few very close in proximity and changed over time as all religions do. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24246" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7937" RevisionGUID="55e345a1-b20f-4d3c-a319-56193f06c5dd" CreationDate="2021-03-10T17:23:42.757" UserId="398" Comment="Tried fixing this up a little bit, but it still needs a lot of work." Text="The Celts, Norse, Germans, and Gauls can all be traced back to same basic origin at very different times in migrations to the north and back down. The times they overlap have long periods of time between and the similarities mostly reside in the more nomadic tribes. Like many beliefs they slowly change through regime changes. Like most all regions through time regime changes have people who question the changes the new leaders and the ones who mange to leave the region  to keep the origins of their faith the same they travel long distances. Inevitably through time and generations the spoken stories (as pretty much all nomadic northern Europeans at that time had no true written language) there were still slight changes over time for thousands of years.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason there are some times similarities that occasionally pop up through some cultures are brief encounters with these tribes whom are there ancestors passing back through areas that settled and developed more advanced ways to record their beliefs. The places that had less change in the original beliefs would have common origins. The misconceptions that make it easy to think they all come from different areas originally is just as easy as it is to anyone who only goes by TV or movies and believe that all Norse were Vikings when they were a very small percentage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the end of the day the Roman's inhabited England far before Anglo-Saxon, who were also remnants of Christianized Germanic tribes and used to use Britain as housing and teaing ground for the Roman wealthy that had large teaing compounds for their gladiators of which many were Celt or Gaul. Lots of the escaped to the far regions of Britain which were unsettled and not explored by Rome so they were able to start their own settlements and what later became the Welsh and Scotland were considered later in time once Romans abandoned England. After the times of gladiators passed and Christians believed they had to spread their religion as far as they could reach began to settle in the parts of Britain closest to Spain and France, they then began to extend west and north running into Celtics tribes they deemed pagans, and unconvertable tried to force them into Christianity but were unable to match their knowledge of the land and fighting tactics but a wall and Considered everything north of that eventually scottland some where they wouldn't venture, once the vikings (explorers/raiders) of the norse and Danes landed there and worked most of the British coast they had encounters with celts and there again small similarities in beliefs crossed paths and again once they moved on to explore near by Ireland.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Trying to pin point when and where they started the origins of their initial beliefs would look like and bunch of line going back and forth, in and out overlapping hundreds of times with no way to tell the starting point. However at something they all started from one place or a few very close in proximity and changed over time as all religions do. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24250" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7929" RevisionGUID="d35c2733-9025-4478-ac52-eb45e53317c0" CreationDate="2021-03-11T11:57:03.813" UserId="7780" Comment="added 84 characters in body; edited title" Text="I am searching for a study guide, as described in the question, giving comprehensive primary sources (e.g. ideally stating all discovered theogonies) and discussing each primary source. It would be helpful if such a study guide gives the stories of multiple (ideally all) versions of the myth if there are multiple versions, and the study guide put the works in internal chronology as well, e.g. Cypria before Iliad.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24251" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="7929" RevisionGUID="d35c2733-9025-4478-ac52-eb45e53317c0" CreationDate="2021-03-11T11:57:03.813" UserId="7780" Comment="added 84 characters in body; edited title" Text="Is there an introductory scholarly study guide, involving primary works being discussed, for ancient greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24252" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7929" RevisionGUID="512d6b94-0d24-4311-a5bb-bc1c46af9a50" CreationDate="2021-03-11T12:05:40.927" UserId="7780" Comment="added 84 characters in body; edited title" Text="I am searching for a study guide, as described in the question, giving comprehensive primary sources (e.g. ideally stating all discovered theogonies) and discussing each primary source. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It would be helpful if such a study guide gives the details of multiple (ideally all) versions of the myth (if there are multiple versions). It would also be helpful if the study guide put the works in internal chronology as well, e.g. Cypria before Iliad.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24256" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7934" RevisionGUID="01d11b21-b4c3-4f60-a358-e6a3b2370801" CreationDate="2021-03-12T06:39:17.863" UserId="7802" Comment="Adjusted question" Text="It has been suggested by some authors that stories of changelings in Scandinavia and western Europe are an attempt by ancient peoples used to try and explain developmental abnormalities in children, particularly autism spectrum disorder. The latter has been suggested in particular because a lot of traits of changelings in folklore are very reminiscent of those of autism spectrum disorder:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The first sign of a changeling is often said to be when an otherwise healthy child begins behaving strangely or fails to develop along normal developmental milestones. Like autism.&#xD;&#xA; - Changelings are often depicted as being behaviorally abnormal and lack typical social behavior. Changeling children were variably said to sometimes [cry incessantly, spurn physical affection, be non-vocal][1], etc. Unusual behavior, socially inappropriate responses, and a seeming inability to grasp human social graces or exhibit normal human social behavior was said to be a hallmark of a changeling. Which is very similar to people with autism.&#xD;&#xA; - [Sometimes changelings were described as being prodigies at particular tasks despite their lack of social knowledge. Which, again, happens a lot in autism.][2]&#xD;&#xA; - Changelings and faeries in general are infamous for their inability to lie, and often get around this by lying by omission. [Autistic people are also really, really bad liars][3], to the point that some autistic individuals have reported physical discomfort when lying.&#xD;&#xA; - Changelings and faeries in general are often depicted as self-centered and amoral. Neurotypical people oftentimes mistake autistic people as being amoral due to their behavior, [to the point that it was a prominent medical theory for the better part of a century][4].&#xD;&#xA; - Changelings often either never grow up or are immortal. Autism spectrum disorder is associated with rounded facial features that produce a &quot;baby-faced&quot; or &quot;elfin&quot; appearance that often makes autistic individuals appear childlike. Autistic people often appear to age slower because they emote less extensively and wrinkle and stretch the skin often.&#xD;&#xA; - Changelings were sometimes said to prefer being in nature to the company of people, which was depicted as them returning to commune with the faeries or something along that line. A lot of autistic people have expressed a preference for being around animals or nature to being around people (e.g., Temple Grandin).&#xD;&#xA; - Changelings and faeries in general are often depicted as having strange, seemingly nonsensical weaknesses such as aversions to certain foods, not liking certain fabrics, etc. Autistic individuals are often hypersensitive to certain stimuli such as certain noises, smells, tastes, or even the texture of certain food items or fabric, and what the individual is sensitive to is not easily predictable.&#xD;&#xA; - [Changelings are often depicted as having adult mindsets and personalities despite having the bodies of children][5]. Autistic children, particularly high-functioning ones, are often described as exhibiting un-child-like behaviors and having a demeanor more like adults.&#xD;&#xA; - The behavior of how modern parents of autistic children react to their child is often very similar to how people in the past are depicted as having reacted to changelings. I.e., many parents of children with autism have described their situation as &quot;it's like something took my baby away and left something else in its place&quot;. It is unclear if this is subconscious cultural osmosis from exposure to changeling-inspired folklore or parallel ways in which people have tried to explain their experiences.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, I was wondering if **there are any folktales in non-Western European/Scandinavian cultures that have been suggested to possible represent mythologized depictions of individuals with autism spectrum disorder** similar to what has been suggested for changelings? [Studies of autism indicate that it's present][6] [in all populations around the globe][7]; autism rates are higher in industralized countries but this is thought to be [entirely due to diagnosis rates, greater access to medical care in industralized nations, and under-reporting in developing nations][8]. Autism doesn't appear to be either confined to industralized cultures or a culture-specific psychosis unique to western and northern European populations akin to kitsune-tsuki or wendigo psychosis. As a result ancient people would have encountered autistic individuals in their daily lives and it seems plausible that at least some other cultures would have tried to explain it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know that many cultures with shamanistic traditions often treated autistic symptoms as signs that individuals were spirit-touched, marked to be shamans, etc., but such a judgement could be based on a wide range of behaviors and signs and was not unique to autism. [Similar judgements have been made in cultures that don't have animistic beliefs][9], but again the &quot;symptoms&quot; are very generic compared to how closely changeling myths hew to modern diagnoses of autism. There are [changeling-analogous myths][10] in Poland and Africa, but neither of these mythical beings exhibit traits similar to autism spectrum disorder. Similarly, other cultural disorders (for lack of a better term) attributed to being possessed by a spirit or demon like [wendigo psychosis][11] or [kitsune-tsuki][12] don't resemble autism spectrum disorder in their etiology at all. I have been unable to find any other depictions in folklore that seem like they could be attributed to a mythologized or distorted version of people with autism.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://adc.bmj.com/content/archdischild/90/3/271.full.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://hekint.org/2017/01/30/from-changelings-to-extraterrestrials-depictions-of-autism-in-popular-culture/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11019-011-9363-7&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/BF02172277.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/jhbs.1032&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.statista.com/statistics/676354/autism-rate-among-children-select-countries-worldwide/&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.axios.com/most-of-the-worlds-autistic-children-live-in-countries-with-few-resources-b9ec6d04-8adf-4ce9-ac87-3eb476c4ca87.html&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://scholarworks.waldenu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=11123&amp;context=dissertations&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_madness&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Changeling#Africa&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendigo#Wendigo_psychosis&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsune#Kitsunetsuki" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24257" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="7934" RevisionGUID="01d11b21-b4c3-4f60-a358-e6a3b2370801" CreationDate="2021-03-12T06:39:17.863" UserId="7802" Comment="Adjusted question" Text="Is there any folklore in non-European culture that may be an attempt to &quot;explain&quot; similar to changeling myths in Western Europe and Scandinavia?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24258" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="7934" RevisionGUID="01d11b21-b4c3-4f60-a358-e6a3b2370801" CreationDate="2021-03-12T06:39:17.863" UserId="7802" Comment="Adjusted question" Text="|comparative|folklore|origins|symbolism|fairies|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24259" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7941" RevisionGUID="7e142acc-36fc-4cba-a328-2c89c4ec3ecd" CreationDate="2021-03-12T13:45:35.050" UserId="7780" Text="I have access to the fragments of the Titanomachy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have a short commentary on the Titanomachy in the book: The Greek Epic Cycle by Malcolm Davies, thanks to Gullintanni (a stack exchange username). Analysis, commentary or interpretation that will help give understanding to the Titanomachy will be welcome as well.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24260" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7941" RevisionGUID="7e142acc-36fc-4cba-a328-2c89c4ec3ecd" CreationDate="2021-03-12T13:45:35.050" UserId="7780" Text="Is there a reconstruction of the Titanomachy (as in the epic poem)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24261" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7941" RevisionGUID="7e142acc-36fc-4cba-a328-2c89c4ec3ecd" CreationDate="2021-03-12T13:45:35.050" UserId="7780" Text="|greek|epic-poetry|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24262" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7942" RevisionGUID="ea52f4ad-f69e-4cf2-8f6f-b94c51200aee" CreationDate="2021-03-12T20:49:33.767" UserId="398" Text="Martin West's Loeb volume Greek Epic Fragments collects all the available fragments for the Titanomachy and a short introduction (2 paragraphs) on it. This is also where you'll find all the available fragments for early Greek epic." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24263" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7918" RevisionGUID="7dd45644-0065-4524-964e-577e6571b6ca" CreationDate="2021-03-12T20:51:53.543" UserId="398" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="She isn't the child of Ouranos and Gaia. [There are two chief myths to her birth.][1] The first and oldest is found in Homer, where she is the daughter of Zeus and Dione. As the daughter of Zeus and another god, she is fully divine.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod in his *Theogony* instead makes her the daughter of Ouranos, but not of Gaia. Instead he was born when his castrated testicles fell into the sea. This is an etymological *aetion* connecting her name to sea-foam ([ἀφρός, *aphros*](https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=afros&amp;la=greek#lexicon)). Hesiod's *Theogony* likely comes after Homer's *Iliad*, though that is a much debated topic. (In particular, West and Janko place Hesiod first.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, your assumption isn't true. Not Athena, Apollo, Artemis, or Dionysus were the children of Cronus and Rhea, yet all are considered gods. In fact, all of the above would be &quot;gods.&quot; Titans, too. What makes the [Dodecatheon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Olympians), the pantheon of twelve gods, *Olympians* is that they lived on Olympus. Hades, the brother of Zeus (and Poseidon, Hera, Hestia, and Demeter) did not live on Olympus, so he does not have that designation. Aphrodite does, so she's Olympian.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greeks also weren't too big of sticklers on this point. Greek mythology is not a cohesive whole, but in constant flux. With each new poet, various traditions became codified, but they often conflicted. This is just one of those times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Aphrodite.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24264" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7918" RevisionGUID="e06fe431-d630-4559-b5d9-2e967e441c73" CreationDate="2021-03-12T21:00:19.417" UserId="398" Comment="edited body" Text="She isn't the child of Ouranos and Gaia. [There are two chief myths to her birth.][1] The first and oldest is found in Homer, where she is the daughter of Zeus and Dione. As the daughter of Zeus and another god, she is fully divine.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod in his *Theogony* instead makes her the daughter of Ouranos, but not of Gaia. Instead he was born when his castrated testicles fell into the sea. This is an etymological *aetion* connecting her name to sea-foam ([ἀφρός, *aphros*](https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=afros&amp;la=greek#lexicon)). Hesiod's *Theogony* likely comes after Homer's *Iliad*, though that is a much debated topic. (In particular, West and Janko place Hesiod first.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, your assumption isn't true. Athena, Apollo, Artemis, and Dionysus weren't the children of Cronus and Rhea, yet all are considered gods. In fact, all of the above would be &quot;gods.&quot; Titans, too. What makes the [Dodecatheon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Olympians), the pantheon of twelve gods, *Olympians* is that they lived on Olympus. Hades, the brother of Zeus (and Poseidon, Hera, Hestia, and Demeter) did not live on Olympus, so he does not have that designation. Aphrodite does, so she's Olympian.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greeks also weren't too big of sticklers on this point. Greek mythology is not a cohesive whole, but in constant flux. With each new poet, various traditions became codified, but they often conflicted. This is just one of those times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Aphrodite.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24265" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7943" RevisionGUID="3a6bdab0-dcef-472f-ba5e-ab47736abe90" CreationDate="2021-03-12T22:36:25.373" UserId="5225" Text="Apart from good old Mmenosyne, are there gods or goddesses of memory (or lack thereof) in any legendarium?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I couldn't find much more beside Meng Po and possibly Muninn, but they don't feel very... substantial." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24266" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7943" RevisionGUID="3a6bdab0-dcef-472f-ba5e-ab47736abe90" CreationDate="2021-03-12T22:36:25.373" UserId="5225" Text="Gods or goddesses of memory" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24267" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7943" RevisionGUID="3a6bdab0-dcef-472f-ba5e-ab47736abe90" CreationDate="2021-03-12T22:36:25.373" UserId="5225" Text="|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24268" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7800" RevisionGUID="598ed8e7-d224-4750-be40-a250eadb5ed0" CreationDate="2021-03-12T23:26:34.217" UserId="1317" Comment="added 7 characters in body" Text="These &quot;14 tablets&quot; are entirely fictitious, an invention of conspiracy theorist  [Zecharia Sitchin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zecharia_Sitchin)  in his book _The Lost Book of ENKI_. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [Mythopedia](https://myths.fandom.com/wiki/14_tablets_of_Enki), which calls the book a &quot;novel&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &gt;The introduction suggests, but does not reveal, that the tablets of Enki were recovered among thousands of other tablets from a library in Nineveh....&#xD;&#xA;&gt;An attestation reveals the protagonist of the novel—a scribe identified as Endubsar, who writes and prepares fourteen tablets for Enki, &quot;Lord of Earth&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This book is a memoir from the point of view of Enki, here reimagined as an &quot;ancient astronaut&quot;. Although the book does quote actual ancient sources, they are only there to support the invented narrative. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This Youtube video](https://youtu.be/lacT--YmV7U) explains how Sitchin was not a professional Assyriologist, but an enthusiast who taught himself Sumerian, and relied upon fundamental translation errors to support his theories.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This Reddit post by SokarRostau on r/conspiracy](https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/3ymzrs/current_location_of_the_14_tablets_of_enki/) sums it up:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Where previous works in the series could be described charitably as alternative history, _The Lost Book of Enki_ is a work of speculative fiction and it says so on the cover.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24271" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7945" RevisionGUID="b415b43b-f00c-4e67-a365-6e38fb60f47a" CreationDate="2021-03-14T18:21:55.230" UserId="7315" Text="The figure in Norse mythology you should look into is not Muninn, who is indeed a quite secondary character, but rather [Mímir][1]. Although he's not explicitly characterized as a &quot;god of memory&quot; in the sources at our disposal, he has been associated to memory, and more specifically to the Greek goddess Mnemosyne by several scholars, on quite convincing grounds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First of all, the most widely accepted etymology for his name comes from the Proto-Indo-European verb **(s)mer-* &quot;to remember&quot;, from which also English &quot;memory&quot; and Greek &quot;Mnemosyne&quot; originate. For this reason, Rudolf Simek in his &quot;A Dictionary of Northern Mythology&quot;, renders Mímir as &quot;the rememberer, the wise one&quot;, while Bruce Lincoln in &quot;[Waters of Memory, Waters of Forgetfulness][2]&quot; simply renders it as &quot;memory&quot;, calling Mímir &quot;a wise giant, patron of memory&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apart from his name, perhaps the most striking resemblance with Mnemosyne lies in the fact that both of them preside over a water source (a pool in the case of the Greek goddess, a well in Mímir's case) which gives supernatural knowledge (in the form of memory or wisdom), in connection with an otherworldly river (Greek Lethe and Norse Gjöll). You can read more on this in the aforementioned Bruce Lincoln article.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the first volume of &quot;Prolonged Echoes: Old Norse Myths in Medieval Icelandic Society&quot;, Margaret Clunies Ross further promotes the notion of Mímir as patron of memory and compares him to Mnemosyne. First, she stresses how his wisdom is emphasized in medieval sources, and how the concepts of wisdom and memory were interlaced in pre-literate societies (like the one that generated Old Norse myth).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then, building in part on an argument introduced by Turville-Petre in &quot;Myth and Religion of the North&quot;, she gives an interpretation of an episode of the [Æsir–Vanir War][3] in Snorri's &quot;Heimskringla&quot;. In this story, the gods Mímir and Hœnir are sent as hostages to the enemy Vanir. When the Vanir realize that Hœnir is useless when Mímir is not present, they sense deceit and behead Mímir. Clunies Ross explains the story by identifying Hœnir and Mímir as personifications of thought and memory respectively.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a side note, Lincoln also calls the Celtic goddess [Rosmerta][4] &quot;patroness of memory&quot; and derives her name from the same **(s)mer-* root as Mímir. Her association with healing springs might even suggest a deeper connection with Mímir and Mnemosyne, but this is highly speculative, as the most widely accepted etymology for her name seems to be &quot;carer&quot; or &quot;provider&quot;, and she is believed to be a goddess of abundance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%ADmir&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.academia.edu/32367336/Waters_of_Memory&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%86sir%E2%80%93Vanir_War&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosmerta" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24272" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7945" RevisionGUID="fd2ab29a-3e72-413f-952d-33a0f265043f" CreationDate="2021-03-14T19:13:42.807" UserId="7315" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="The figure in Norse mythology you should look into is not Muninn, who is indeed a quite secondary character, but rather [Mímir][1]. Although he's not explicitly characterized as a &quot;god of memory&quot; in the sources at our disposal, he has been associated with memory, and more specifically with the Greek goddess Mnemosyne by several scholars, on quite convincing grounds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First of all, the most widely accepted etymology for his name comes from the Proto-Indo-European verb **(s)mer-* &quot;to remember&quot;, from which also English &quot;memory&quot; and Greek &quot;Mnemosyne&quot; originate. For this reason, Rudolf Simek in his &quot;A Dictionary of Northern Mythology&quot;, renders Mímir as &quot;the rememberer, the wise one&quot;, while Bruce Lincoln in &quot;[Waters of Memory, Waters of Forgetfulness][2]&quot; simply renders it as &quot;memory&quot;, calling Mímir &quot;a wise giant, patron of memory&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apart from his name, perhaps the most striking resemblance with Mnemosyne lies in the fact that both of them preside over a water source (a pool in the case of the Greek goddess, a well in Mímir's case) which gives supernatural knowledge (in the form of memory or wisdom), in connection with an otherworldly river (Greek Lethe and Norse Gjöll). You can read more on this in the aforementioned Bruce Lincoln article.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the first volume of &quot;Prolonged Echoes: Old Norse Myths in Medieval Icelandic Society&quot;, Margaret Clunies Ross further promotes the notion of Mímir as patron of memory and compares him to Mnemosyne. First, she stresses how his wisdom is emphasized in medieval sources, and how the concepts of wisdom and memory were interlaced in pre-literate societies (like the one that generated Old Norse myth).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then, building in part on an argument introduced by Turville-Petre in &quot;Myth and Religion of the North&quot;, she gives an interpretation of an episode of the [Æsir–Vanir War][3] in Snorri's &quot;Heimskringla&quot;. In this story, the gods Mímir and Hœnir are sent as hostages to the enemy Vanir. When the Vanir realize that Hœnir is useless when Mímir is not present, they sense deceit and behead Mímir. Clunies Ross explains the story by identifying Hœnir and Mímir as personifications of thought and memory respectively.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a side note, Lincoln also calls the Celtic goddess [Rosmerta][4] &quot;patroness of memory&quot; and derives her name from the same **(s)mer-* root as Mímir. Her association with healing springs might even suggest a deeper connection with Mímir and Mnemosyne, but this is highly speculative, as the most widely accepted etymology for her name seems to be &quot;carer&quot; or &quot;provider&quot;, and she is believed to be a goddess of abundance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%ADmir&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.academia.edu/32367336/Waters_of_Memory&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%86sir%E2%80%93Vanir_War&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosmerta" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24273" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7946" RevisionGUID="772226aa-5618-4a13-a236-6a2a3d1ef654" CreationDate="2021-03-14T22:32:34.680" UserId="197" Text="In Homer's Odyssey, Odysseus is rich: he owns cattle, swine, sheep, goats.  Kirkē asks Odysseus to sacrifice cattle and sheep, and to do libation with milk, honey, wine, flour; Teiresias asks Odysseus to sacrifice cattle and sheep and swine (in the future after the end of the story).  The Odyssey also mentions people other than Odysseus sacrificing cattle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What I find odd is that the Odyssey never seems to mention chicken or other poultry.  Why is this?  &#xD;&#xA; - Were chickens not kept in Greece in those times yet?  I was under the impression that poultry arrived in Europe centuries before that.&#xD;&#xA; - Did Odysseus live in a climate unfavorable for keeping chicken?&#xD;&#xA; - Was sacrificing poultry a habit started later, in the Roman times, and not yet practiced at the time?&#xD;&#xA; - Or was sacrificing chicken was deemed beneath Odysseus, reserved for people not rich enough to sacrifice cattle and sheep?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24274" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7946" RevisionGUID="772226aa-5618-4a13-a236-6a2a3d1ef654" CreationDate="2021-03-14T22:32:34.680" UserId="197" Text="Why did Odysseus not sacrifice poultry?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24275" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7946" RevisionGUID="772226aa-5618-4a13-a236-6a2a3d1ef654" CreationDate="2021-03-14T22:32:34.680" UserId="197" Text="|greek|odyssey|sacrifice|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24276" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7947" RevisionGUID="3d610a67-85a4-40dc-b2d1-d2d839cd4c7d" CreationDate="2021-03-15T00:51:48.273" UserId="7315" Text="According to [this article][1] by Lee Perry-Gal et al.:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The arrival of chickens in Greece likely postdates Homer (around the eighth century B.C.E.), because the Greek poet does not mention this bird, but chickens are mentioned by Theognis of Megara in the sixth century.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, this seems to contradict the fact that Homer mentions a character by the name [Alectryon][2] (literally &quot;rooster&quot;). John P. Peters, in his article &quot;[The Cock][3]&quot; addresses this issue, after listing numerous greek artifacts depicting roosters (sometimes as sacrificial birds) and dating from the 7th century BC onwards (slightly after the time of Homer). He comes to the conclusion that at the time of Homer the chicken was still relatively uncommon among the Greeks, and perceived as an exotic bird (his considerations on the etymology of the Ancient Greek word for rooster seem a bit outdated, though).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover, in the aforementioned article by Perry-Gal et al., it is stressed that archeological records show that chickens were not commonly used as sources of food until the Hellenistic period, but rather for cockfighting and exotic displays.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This would explain why they do not appear as sacrificial animals in Homer's epics: they were probably not common, considered exotic, and almost certainly not associated with food, in contrast with all the other sacrificial offerings you listed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To answer your third point, it seems that, while not yet a habit at the time of Homer, sacrificing poultry became quite widespread in Greece before contacts with the Romans. On top of the evidence provided by Peters, see for example [this article][4] by Emma Stafford on the practice of sacrificing cocks to Asklepios.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/112/32/9849.full.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alector&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/592841.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.academia.edu/1525667/Cocks_to_Asklepios_sacrificial_practice_and_healing_cult" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24277" PostHistoryTypeId="52" PostId="7946" RevisionGUID="6564c404-cedf-4d56-97c1-cf5367b5d791" CreationDate="2021-03-15T12:50:03.350" />
  <row Id="24279" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="7669" RevisionGUID="a5946d37-a7cb-4786-baa2-dec4410a2c01" CreationDate="2021-03-16T18:06:25.777" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="24280" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7918" RevisionGUID="9b4e4013-403b-4048-8765-f8b5a5bf5b7f" CreationDate="2021-03-18T11:56:41.567" UserId="398" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="She isn't the child of Ouranos and Gaia. [There are two chief myths to her birth.][1] The first and oldest is found in Homer, where she is the daughter of Zeus and Dione. As the daughter of Zeus and another god, she is fully divine.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod in his *Theogony* instead makes her the daughter of Ouranos, but not of Gaia. Instead she was born when his castrated testicles fell into the sea. This is an etymological *aetion* connecting her name to sea-foam ([ἀφρός, *aphros*](https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=afros&amp;la=greek#lexicon)). Hesiod's *Theogony* likely comes after Homer's *Iliad*, though that is a much debated topic. (In particular, West and Janko place Hesiod first.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, your assumption isn't true. Athena, Apollo, Artemis, and Dionysus weren't the children of Cronus and Rhea, yet all are considered gods. In fact, all of the above would be &quot;gods.&quot; Titans, too. What makes the [Dodecatheon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Olympians), the pantheon of twelve gods, *Olympians* is that they lived on Olympus. Hades, the brother of Zeus (and Poseidon, Hera, Hestia, and Demeter) did not live on Olympus, so he does not have that designation. Aphrodite does, so she's Olympian.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greeks also weren't too big of sticklers on this point. Greek mythology is not a cohesive whole, but in constant flux. With each new poet, various traditions became codified, but they often conflicted. This is just one of those times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Aphrodite.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24285" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7949" RevisionGUID="6a8464ab-0297-42bd-aad5-18dfd3c98620" CreationDate="2021-03-21T13:14:05.870" UserId="6897" Text="Renaissance Humanists rediscovered Plutarch and Rabelais' *Fourth Boook* quotes at length a famous anecdote from *The Failure of the Oracles* (*Moralia,* 5-29), about a divine voice commanding one Thamous to proclaim the death of the great god Pan in Palodes (later [Buthrotum][1], at the outlet of Lake Butrint, Albania). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did Rabelais give a tongue-in-cheek explanation of the incident; that the voice heralded the crucifixion of Jesus while it was taking place in Jerusalem? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From [fullbooks.com][2], unknown translator: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Chapter 28: How Pantagruel related a very sad story of the death of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the heroes.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Epitherses, the father of Aemilian the rhetorician, sailing from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greece to Italy  in a ship freighted with divers goods and passengers,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; at night the wind failed 'em near the Echinades, some islands that lie&#xD;&#xA;&gt; between the Morea and Tunis, and the vessel was driven near Paxos.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When they were got thither, some of the passengers being asleep,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; others awake, the rest eating and drinking, a voice was heard that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; called aloud, Thamous! which cry surprised them all. This same Thamous&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was their pilot, an Egyptian by birth, but known by name only to some&#xD;&#xA;&gt; few travellers. The voice was heard a second time calling Thamous, in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a frightful tone; and none making answer, but trembling and remaining&#xD;&#xA;&gt; silent, the voice was heard a third time, more dreadful than before.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; This caused Thamous to answer: Here am I; what dost thou call me for?&#xD;&#xA;&gt; What wilt thou have me do? Then the voice, louder than before, bid him&#xD;&#xA;&gt; publish when he should come to Palodes, that the great god Pan was dead.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Epitherses related that all the mariners and passengers, having heard&#xD;&#xA;&gt; this, were extremely amazed and frighted; and that, consulting among&#xD;&#xA;&gt; themselves whether they had best conceal or divulge what the voice had&#xD;&#xA;&gt; enjoined, Thamous said his advice was that if they happened to have a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fair wind they should proceed without mentioning a word on't, but if&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they chanced to be becalmed he would publish what he had heard. Now&#xD;&#xA;&gt; when they were near Palodes they had no wind, neither were they in any&#xD;&#xA;&gt; current. Thamous then getting up on the top of the ship's forecastle,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and casting his eyes on the shore, said that he had been commanded to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; proclaim that the great god Pan was dead. The words were hardly out of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his mouth, when deep groans, great lamentations, and doleful shrieks,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not of one person, but of many together, were heard from the land.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The news of this--many being present then--was soon spread at Rome;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; insomuch that Tiberius, who was then emperor, sent for this Thamous,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and having heard him gave credit to his words. And inquiring of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; learned in his court and at Rome who was that Pan, he found by their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; relation that he was the son of Mercury and Penelope, as Herodotus and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cicero in his third book of the Nature of the Gods had written before.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then, Rabelais goes on to explain: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For my part, I understand it of that great Saviour of the faithful who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was shamefully put to death at Jerusalem by the envy and wickedness of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the doctors, priests, and monks of the Mosaic law. And methinks my&#xD;&#xA;&gt; interpretation is not improper; for he may lawfully be said in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greek tongue to be Pan, since he is our all. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [...] &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The time also concurs with this interpretation of mine; for this most&#xD;&#xA;&gt; good, most mighty Pan, our only Saviour, died near Jerusalem during&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the reign of Tiberius Caesar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A different opinion has been voiced since: Thamos the Egyptian overheard sectators of Tammuz ritually reenacting the death of their deity and the lament of his consort, *cf.* [Ezekiel 8:14][3]. *Cf.* also [this post to M.S.E: Question 2978][4].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rabelais closes the chapter with the following detail: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pantagruel, having ended this discourse, remained silent and full of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; contemplation. A little while after we saw the tears flow out of his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eyes as big as ostrich's eggs. God take me presently if I tell you one&#xD;&#xA;&gt; single syllable of a lie in the matter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This raises the following questions: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Q1.** When did the incident occur: Easter? Mid-sommer? In which season ciould a ferry-boat bound for Italy get becalmed in Paxos, then meet contrary winds in the Straits of Corfu? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Q2.** Who did first set forth in print, and when, that the passengers and crew actually overheard the ritual weeping for Tammuz? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Q3.** Could Rabelais have heard of this possible interpretation, and could Pantagruel, a character in French folklore, have favored it over the Christian one? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Q4.** Given that chapter 28 is explicitly about the deaths of heroes, which one would Pantagruel be possibly weeping?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butrint&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.fullbooks.com/Gargantua-and-Pantagruel-Complete-12.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_(King_James)/Ezekiel#Chapter_8&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2978/how-did-pan-die" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24286" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7949" RevisionGUID="6a8464ab-0297-42bd-aad5-18dfd3c98620" CreationDate="2021-03-21T13:14:05.870" UserId="6897" Text="Would Pantagruel take part in the ritual weeping for Tammuz?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24287" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7949" RevisionGUID="6a8464ab-0297-42bd-aad5-18dfd3c98620" CreationDate="2021-03-21T13:14:05.870" UserId="6897" Text="|christianity|european-folklore|hero-cult|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24288" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7949" RevisionGUID="480ddc93-6648-4fae-84b1-4ed22ecefb16" CreationDate="2021-03-21T14:01:32.193" UserId="6897" Comment="Shortened the quote, edited for grammar. " Text="Renaissance Humanists rediscovered Plutarch and Rabelais' *Fourth Boook* quotes at length a famous anecdote from &#xD;&#xA;*The Failure of the Oracles* (*Moralia,* 5-29), about a divine voice commanding one Thamous &#xD;&#xA;to proclaim the death of the great god Pan in Palodes (later [Buthrotum][1], at the outlet of Lake Butrint, Albania). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did Rabelais give a tongue-in-cheek explanation of the incident; &#xD;&#xA;that the voice heralded the crucifixion of Jesus while it was taking place in Jerusalem? &#xD;&#xA;If so, who did he think was the great Pan? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From [fullbooks.com][2], unknown translator: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Chapter 28: How Pantagruel related a very sad story of the death of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the heroes.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Epitherses, the father of Aemilian the rhetorician, sailing from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greece to Italy  in a ship freighted with divers goods and passengers,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; at night the wind failed 'em near the Echinades, some islands that lie&#xD;&#xA;&gt; between the Morea and Tunis, and the vessel was driven near Paxos.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When they were got thither, some of the passengers being asleep,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; others awake, the rest eating and drinking, a voice was heard that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; called aloud, Thamous! which cry surprised them all. This same Thamous&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was their pilot, an Egyptian by birth, but known by name only to some&#xD;&#xA;&gt; few travellers. The voice was heard a second time calling Thamous, in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a frightful tone; and none making answer, but trembling and remaining&#xD;&#xA;&gt; silent, the voice was heard a third time, more dreadful than before.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; This caused Thamous to answer: Here am I; what dost thou call me for?&#xD;&#xA;&gt; What wilt thou have me do? Then the voice, louder than before, bid him&#xD;&#xA;&gt; publish when he should come to Palodes, that the great god Pan was dead.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [...] Thamous said his advice was that if they happened to have a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fair wind they should proceed without mentioning a word on't, but if&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they chanced to be becalmed he would publish what he had heard. Now&#xD;&#xA;&gt; when they were near Palodes they had no wind, neither were they in any&#xD;&#xA;&gt; current. Thamous then getting up on the top of the ship's forecastle,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and casting his eyes on the shore, said that he had been commanded to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; proclaim that the great god Pan was dead. The words were hardly out of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his mouth, when deep groans, great lamentations, and doleful shrieks,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not of one person, but of many together, were heard from the land.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The news of this--many being present then--was soon spread at Rome;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; insomuch that Tiberius, who was then emperor, sent for this Thamous,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and having heard him gave credit to his words. And inquiring of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; learned in his court and at Rome who was that Pan, he found by their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; relation that he was the son of Mercury and Penelope, as Herodotus and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cicero in his third book of the Nature of the Gods had written before.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then, Rabelais goes on to explain: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For my part, I understand it of that great Saviour of the faithful who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was shamefully put to death at Jerusalem by the envy and wickedness of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the doctors, priests, and monks of the Mosaic law. And methinks my&#xD;&#xA;&gt; interpretation is not improper; for he may lawfully be said in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greek tongue to be Pan, since he is our all. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [...] &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The time also concurs with this interpretation of mine; for this most&#xD;&#xA;&gt; good, most mighty Pan, our only Saviour, died near Jerusalem during&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the reign of Tiberius Caesar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A different opinion has been voiced since: Thamos the Egyptian overheard sectators of Tammuz &#xD;&#xA;reenacting the death of their deity and the lament of his consort, *cf.* [Ezekiel 8:14][3]. *Cf.* also [this post to M.S.E: Question 2978][4].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rabelais closes the chapter with the following detail: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pantagruel, having ended this discourse, remained silent and full of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; contemplation. A little while after we saw the tears flow out of his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eyes as big as ostrich's eggs. God take me presently if I tell you one&#xD;&#xA;&gt; single syllable of a lie in the matter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This raises the following questions: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Q1.** In which season did the incident occur: Easter? Mid-sommer? &#xD;&#xA;When could a ferry-boat bound for Italy get becalmed in Paxos, then meet contrary winds in the Straits of Corfu? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Q2.** Who did first set forth in print, and when, that the passengers and crew actually overheard the yearly weeping for Tammuz? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Q3.** Could Rabelais have heard of this possible interpretation, and could Pantagruel, a character in French folklore, have favored it over the Christian one? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Q4.** Given that chapter 28 is explicitly about the deaths of heroes, which one would Pantagruel be possibly weeping?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butrint&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.fullbooks.com/Gargantua-and-Pantagruel-Complete-12.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_(King_James)/Ezekiel#Chapter_8&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2978/how-did-pan-die" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24289" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7950" RevisionGUID="0050d608-b244-4cc0-9cf8-b9a106214dfe" CreationDate="2021-03-21T15:50:39.017" UserId="7832" Text="I am interested in reading Irish mythology/folklore, especially the four major cycles: The Mythological Cycle, the Ulster Cycle, the Fenian Cycle, and the Historical Cycle - but I want to make sure I read versions based on good scholarship. Are there any recommended collections/compendiums out there?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know from reading about Yeats that his friend Lady Gregory put together some editions of various stories, and that connection to the Gaelic Revival period has some appeal to me, but I don't know what the modern opinion of her scholarship is." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24290" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7950" RevisionGUID="0050d608-b244-4cc0-9cf8-b9a106214dfe" CreationDate="2021-03-21T15:50:39.017" UserId="7832" Text="Are there recommended collection/translations of Irish mythology/folklore?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24291" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7950" RevisionGUID="0050d608-b244-4cc0-9cf8-b9a106214dfe" CreationDate="2021-03-21T15:50:39.017" UserId="7832" Text="|celtic|irish|ulster-cycle|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24292" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7949" RevisionGUID="0d5638c2-ba44-4bf1-8cb1-08a0da9ea99b" CreationDate="2021-03-21T16:17:03.347" UserId="6897" Comment="added 412 characters in body" Text="Renaissance Humanists rediscovered Plutarch and Rabelais' *Fourth Boook* quotes at length a famous anecdote from &#xD;&#xA;*The Failure of the Oracles* (*Moralia,* 5-29), about a divine voice commanding one Thamous &#xD;&#xA;to proclaim the death of the great god Pan in Palodes (later [Buthrotum][1], at the outlet of Lake Butrint, Albania). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did Rabelais give a tongue-in-cheek explanation of the incident; &#xD;&#xA;that the voice heralded the crucifixion of Jesus while it was taking place in Jerusalem? &#xD;&#xA;If so, who did he think was the great Pan? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From [fullbooks.com][2], unknown translator: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Chapter 28: How Pantagruel related a very sad story of the death of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the heroes.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Epitherses, the father of Aemilian the rhetorician, sailing from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greece to Italy  in a ship freighted with divers goods and passengers,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; at night the wind failed 'em near the Echinades, some islands that lie&#xD;&#xA;&gt; between the Morea and Tunis, and the vessel was driven near Paxos.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When they were got thither, some of the passengers being asleep,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; others awake, the rest eating and drinking, a voice was heard that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; called aloud, Thamous! which cry surprised them all. This same Thamous&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was their pilot, an Egyptian by birth, but known by name only to some&#xD;&#xA;&gt; few travellers. The voice was heard a second time calling Thamous, in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a frightful tone; and none making answer, but trembling and remaining&#xD;&#xA;&gt; silent, the voice was heard a third time, more dreadful than before.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; This caused Thamous to answer: Here am I; what dost thou call me for?&#xD;&#xA;&gt; What wilt thou have me do? Then the voice, louder than before, bid him&#xD;&#xA;&gt; publish when he should come to Palodes, that the great god Pan was dead.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [...] Thamous said his advice was that if they happened to have a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fair wind they should proceed without mentioning a word on't, but if&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they chanced to be becalmed he would publish what he had heard. Now&#xD;&#xA;&gt; when they were near Palodes they had no wind, neither were they in any&#xD;&#xA;&gt; current. Thamous then getting up on the top of the ship's forecastle,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and casting his eyes on the shore, said that he had been commanded to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; proclaim that the great god Pan was dead. The words were hardly out of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his mouth, when deep groans, great lamentations, and doleful shrieks,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not of one person, but of many together, were heard from the land.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The news of this--many being present then--was soon spread at Rome;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; insomuch that Tiberius, who was then emperor, sent for this Thamous,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and having heard him gave credit to his words. And inquiring of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; learned in his court and at Rome who was that Pan, he found by their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; relation that he was the son of Mercury and Penelope, as Herodotus and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cicero in his third book of the Nature of the Gods had written before.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then, Rabelais goes on to explain: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For my part, I understand it of that great Saviour of the faithful who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was shamefully put to death at Jerusalem by the envy and wickedness of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the doctors, priests, and monks of the Mosaic law. And methinks my&#xD;&#xA;&gt; interpretation is not improper; for he may lawfully be said in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greek tongue to be Pan, since he is our all. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [...] &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The time also concurs with this interpretation of mine; for this most&#xD;&#xA;&gt; good, most mighty Pan, our only Saviour, died near Jerusalem during&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the reign of Tiberius Caesar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A different opinion has been voiced since: Thamos the Egyptian overheard sectators of Tammuz &#xD;&#xA;reenacting the death of their deity and the lament of his consort, *cf.* [Ezekiel 8:14][3]. *Cf.* also [this post to M.S.E: Question 2978][4].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rabelais closes the chapter with the following detail: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pantagruel, having ended this discourse, remained silent and full of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; contemplation. A little while after we saw the tears flow out of his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eyes as big as ostrich's eggs. God take me presently if I tell you one&#xD;&#xA;&gt; single syllable of a lie in the matter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This raises the following questions: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Q1.** In which season did the incident occur: Easter? Mid-sommer? &#xD;&#xA;When could a ferry-boat bound for Italy get becalmed in Paxos, then meet contrary winds in the Straits of Corfu? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Q2.** Who did first set forth in print, and when, that the passengers and crew actually overheard the yearly weeping for Tammuz?   &#xD;&#xA;**(Edit)** Salomon Reinach alleged to have concocted the hypothesis himself in *[La mort du grand Pan][5];  Bulletin de correspondance hellénique* 1907 (Vol. 31). In a footnote, however, he acknowledged the German folklorist Felix Liebrecht as the 1st (1856) to suggest Thamous the Egyptian misheard Tammuz for his own name. Any earlier contender out there? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Q3.** Could Rabelais have heard of this alternative interpretation, and could Pantagruel, a character in French folklore, have favored it over the Christian one? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Q4.** Given that chapter 28 is explicitly about the deaths of heroes, which one would Pantagruel be possibly weeping?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butrint&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.fullbooks.com/Gargantua-and-Pantagruel-Complete-12.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_(King_James)/Ezekiel#Chapter_8&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2978/how-did-pan-die&#xD;&#xA;  [5]:  https://doi.org/10.3406/bch.1907.3246" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24293" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1917" RevisionGUID="2fcc154e-55b0-453d-add5-6c8802b2ffd1" CreationDate="2021-03-21T16:27:46.347" UserId="6920" Comment="grammar and formatting" Text="**TLDR** This belief doesn't come from a myth.  It first appeared in *The Wizard of Oz*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think the first time this belief was stated was in *The Wizard of Oz* rather than in any myths. The belief probably comes from older myths/customs surrounding witches that were drawn upon to create this idea for the Wizard of Oz.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1) Water used to find witches. This took 2 forms. A  suspected witch would be tossed into a pond with feet and hands bound and if she floated she was a witch. A more likely origin for the burning in water idea though is a second method to find witches. The suspected witch placed her arm in boiling water the wound was then bound with a bandage. After a week the bandage was removed and if the wound was healed they were innocent as God had healed them. If not they were guilty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2) Holy water was used to keep away witches. People would put holy water on their door to keep out witches. This happened in Catalan traditions as, at the new year, according to Catalan folklore, witches are supposed to come and steal children away unless precautions were taken including sprinkling holy water on entrances and exits.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3)  Witches in Catalan folklore were often scared of water as washing them would reveal the devils mark showing them to be a witch.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the other hand I doubt Catalan folklore had witches die in contact with water since a ritual to become a witch involved bathing in saltwater which would not be a safe pastime if ware killed them." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24294" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1917" RevisionGUID="2fcc154e-55b0-453d-add5-6c8802b2ffd1" CreationDate="2021-03-21T16:27:46.347" Comment="Proposed by 6920 approved by -1 edit id of 1859" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24295" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1917" RevisionGUID="5cc081b9-3f65-45a9-99f1-cf5a91b8ad25" CreationDate="2021-03-21T16:27:46.347" UserId="5726" Comment="grammar and formatting" Text="**TL;DR** This belief doesn't come from a myth. It first appeared in *The Wizard of Oz*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think the first time this belief was stated was in *The Wizard of Oz* rather than in any myths. The belief probably comes from older myths/customs surrounding witches that were drawn upon to create this idea for the Wizard of Oz.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1) Water used to find witches. This took 2 forms. A suspected witch would be tossed into a pond with feet and hands bound and if she floated she was a witch. A more likely origin for the burning in water idea though is a second method to find witches. The suspected witch placed her arm in boiling water the wound was then bound with a bandage. After a week the bandage was removed and if the wound was healed they were innocent as God had healed them. If not they were guilty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2) Holy water was used to keep away witches. People would put holy water on their door to keep out witches. This happened in Catalan traditions as, at the new year, according to Catalan folklore, witches are supposed to come and steal children away unless precautions were taken including sprinkling holy water on entrances and exits.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3)  Witches in Catalan folklore were often scared of water as washing them would reveal the devils mark showing them to be a witch.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the other hand I doubt Catalan folklore had witches die in contact with water since a ritual to become a witch involved bathing in saltwater which would not be a safe pastime if water killed them." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24296" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7951" RevisionGUID="e1a3267d-bef3-488c-8340-944cb7a5f05d" CreationDate="2021-03-22T06:37:44.507" UserId="158" Text="We know that Zeus was the youngest, but then people do still talk about being the &quot;older twin&quot; or &quot;younger twin.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do we know if Zeus was the youngest of six siblings born (and devoured) on the same day, or was he the youngest of six siblings who were conceived and born individually? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or is it never specified?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24297" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7951" RevisionGUID="e1a3267d-bef3-488c-8340-944cb7a5f05d" CreationDate="2021-03-22T06:37:44.507" UserId="158" Text="Do any myths specify whether Zeus, Hades, Poseidon, Hera, Demeter, and Hestia were sextuplets or simply siblings?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24298" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7951" RevisionGUID="e1a3267d-bef3-488c-8340-944cb7a5f05d" CreationDate="2021-03-22T06:37:44.507" UserId="158" Text="|greek|zeus|titans|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24299" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7949" RevisionGUID="a6fb36e1-dc76-432b-81ff-ca6fb3101069" CreationDate="2021-03-22T09:47:27.133" UserId="6897" Comment="clarified that chapter 28 possibly implies 2 different heroes. " Text="Renaissance Humanists rediscovered Plutarch and Rabelais' *Fourth Boook* of Pantagruel's adventures quotes at length a famous anecdote from &#xD;&#xA;*The Failure of the Oracles* (*Moralia,* 5-29), about a divine voice commanding one Thamous &#xD;&#xA;to proclaim the death of the great god Pan in Palodes (later [Buthrotum][1], at the outlet of Lake Butrint, Albania). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did Rabelais give a tongue-in-cheek explanation of the incident; &#xD;&#xA;that the voice heralded the crucifixion of Jesus while it was taking place in Jerusalem? &#xD;&#xA;If so, who did he think was the great Pan in Plutarch's story? Was he the hero for whom Pantagruel apparently sheds tears?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From [fullbooks.com][2], unknown translator: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Chapter 28: How Pantagruel related a very sad story of the death of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the heroes.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Epitherses, the father of Aemilian the rhetorician, sailing from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greece to Italy  in a ship freighted with divers goods and passengers,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; at night the wind failed 'em near the Echinades, some islands that lie&#xD;&#xA;&gt; between the Morea and Tunis, and the vessel was driven near Paxos.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When they were got thither, some of the passengers being asleep,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; others awake, the rest eating and drinking, a voice was heard that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; called aloud, Thamous! which cry surprised them all. This same Thamous&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was their pilot, an Egyptian by birth, but known by name only to some&#xD;&#xA;&gt; few travellers. The voice was heard a second time calling Thamous, in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a frightful tone; and none making answer, but trembling and remaining&#xD;&#xA;&gt; silent, the voice was heard a third time, more dreadful than before.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; This caused Thamous to answer: Here am I; what dost thou call me for?&#xD;&#xA;&gt; What wilt thou have me do? Then the voice, louder than before, bid him&#xD;&#xA;&gt; publish when he should come to Palodes, that the great god Pan was dead.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [...] Thamous said his advice was that if they happened to have a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fair wind they should proceed without mentioning a word on't, but if&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they chanced to be becalmed he would publish what he had heard. Now&#xD;&#xA;&gt; when they were near Palodes they had no wind, neither were they in any&#xD;&#xA;&gt; current. Thamous then getting up on the top of the ship's forecastle,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and casting his eyes on the shore, said that he had been commanded to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; proclaim that the great god Pan was dead. The words were hardly out of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his mouth, when deep groans, great lamentations, and doleful shrieks,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not of one person, but of many together, were heard from the land.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The news of this--many being present then--was soon spread at Rome;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; insomuch that Tiberius, who was then emperor, sent for this Thamous,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and having heard him gave credit to his words. And inquiring of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; learned in his court and at Rome who was that Pan, he found by their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; relation that he was the son of Mercury and Penelope, as Herodotus and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cicero in his third book of the Nature of the Gods had written before.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then, Rabelais goes on to explain: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For my part, I understand it of that great Saviour of the faithful who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was shamefully put to death at Jerusalem by the envy and wickedness of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the doctors, priests, and monks of the Mosaic law. And methinks my&#xD;&#xA;&gt; interpretation is not improper; for he may lawfully be said in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greek tongue to be Pan, since he is our all. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [...] &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The time also concurs with this interpretation of mine; for this most&#xD;&#xA;&gt; good, most mighty Pan, our only Saviour, died near Jerusalem during&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the reign of Tiberius Caesar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A different opinion has been voiced since: Thamos the Egyptian overheard sectators of Tammuz &#xD;&#xA;reenacting the death of their deity and the lament of his consort, *cf.* [Ezekiel 8:14][3]. *Cf.* also [this post to M.S.E: Question 2978][4].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rabelais closes the chapter with the following detail: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pantagruel, having ended this discourse, remained silent and full of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; contemplation. A little while after we saw the tears flow out of his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eyes as big as ostrich's eggs. God take me presently if I tell you one&#xD;&#xA;&gt; single syllable of a lie in the matter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This raises the following questions: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Q1.** In which season did the incident occur: Easter? Mid-sommer? &#xD;&#xA;When could a ferry-boat bound for Italy get becalmed in Paxos, then meet contrary winds in the Straits of Corfu? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Q2.** Who did first set forth in print, and when, that the passengers and crew actually overheard the yearly weeping for Tammuz?   &#xD;&#xA;**(Edit)** Salomon Reinach alleged to have concocted the hypothesis himself in *[La mort du grand Pan][5];  Bulletin de correspondance hellénique* 1907 (Vol. 31). In a footnote, however, he acknowledged the German folklorist Felix Liebrecht as the 1st (1856) to suggest Thamous the Egyptian misheard Tammuz for his own name. Any earlier contender out there? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Q3.** Could Rabelais have heard of this alternative interpretation, and could Pantagruel, a character in French folklore, have favored it over the Christian one? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Q4.** Given that chapter 28 is explicitly about the deaths of heroes, which one would Pantagruel be possibly weeping?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butrint&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.fullbooks.com/Gargantua-and-Pantagruel-Complete-12.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_(King_James)/Ezekiel#Chapter_8&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2978/how-did-pan-die&#xD;&#xA;  [5]:  https://doi.org/10.3406/bch.1907.3246" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24300" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7949" RevisionGUID="9fd52016-b393-4562-af4c-bdda9ab589df" CreationDate="2021-03-22T09:53:25.347" UserId="6897" Comment="clarified that chapter 28 possibly implies 2 different heroes. " Text="Renaissance Humanists rediscovered Plutarch and Rabelais' *Fourth Boook* of Pantagruel's adventures quotes at length a famous anecdote from &#xD;&#xA;*The Failure of the Oracles* (*Moralia,* 5-29), about a divine voice commanding one Thamous &#xD;&#xA;to proclaim the death of the great god Pan in Palodes (later [Buthrotum][1], at the outlet of Lake Butrint, Albania). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did Rabelais give a tongue-in-cheek explanation of the incident; &#xD;&#xA;that the voice heralded the crucifixion of Jesus while it was taking place in Jerusalem? &#xD;&#xA;If so, who did he think was the great Pan in Plutarch's story? Was he the hero for whom Pantagruel apparently sheds tears?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From [fullbooks.com][2], unknown translator: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Chapter 28: How Pantagruel related a very sad story of the death of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the heroes.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Epitherses, the father of Aemilian the rhetorician, sailing from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greece to Italy  in a ship freighted with divers goods and passengers,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; at night the wind failed 'em near the Echinades, some islands that lie&#xD;&#xA;&gt; between the Morea and Tunis, and the vessel was driven near Paxos.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When they were got thither, some of the passengers being asleep,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; others awake, the rest eating and drinking, a voice was heard that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; called aloud, Thamous! which cry surprised them all. This same Thamous&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was their pilot, an Egyptian by birth, but known by name only to some&#xD;&#xA;&gt; few travellers. The voice was heard a second time calling Thamous, in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a frightful tone; and none making answer, but trembling and remaining&#xD;&#xA;&gt; silent, the voice was heard a third time, more dreadful than before.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; This caused Thamous to answer: Here am I; what dost thou call me for?&#xD;&#xA;&gt; What wilt thou have me do? Then the voice, louder than before, bid him&#xD;&#xA;&gt; publish when he should come to Palodes, that the great god Pan was dead.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [...] Thamous said his advice was that if they happened to have a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fair wind they should proceed without mentioning a word on't, but if&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they chanced to be becalmed he would publish what he had heard. Now&#xD;&#xA;&gt; when they were near Palodes they had no wind, neither were they in any&#xD;&#xA;&gt; current. Thamous then getting up on the top of the ship's forecastle,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and casting his eyes on the shore, said that he had been commanded to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; proclaim that the great god Pan was dead. The words were hardly out of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his mouth, when deep groans, great lamentations, and doleful shrieks,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not of one person, but of many together, were heard from the land.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The news of this--many being present then--was soon spread at Rome;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; insomuch that Tiberius, who was then emperor, sent for this Thamous,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and having heard him gave credit to his words. And inquiring of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; learned in his court and at Rome who was that Pan, he found by their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; relation that he was the son of Mercury and Penelope, as Herodotus and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cicero in his third book of the Nature of the Gods had written before.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then, Rabelais goes on to explain: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For my part, I understand it of that great Saviour of the faithful who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was shamefully put to death at Jerusalem by the envy and wickedness of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the doctors, priests, and monks of the Mosaic law. And methinks my&#xD;&#xA;&gt; interpretation is not improper; for he may lawfully be said in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greek tongue to be Pan, since he is our all. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [...] &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The time also concurs with this interpretation of mine; for this most&#xD;&#xA;&gt; good, most mighty Pan, our only Saviour, died near Jerusalem during&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the reign of Tiberius Caesar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A different opinion has been voiced since: Thamos the Egyptian overheard sectators of Tammuz &#xD;&#xA;reenacting the death of their deity and the lament of his consort, *cf.* [Ezekiel 8:14][3]. *Cf.* also [this post to M.S.E: Question 2978][4].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rabelais closes the chapter with the following detail: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pantagruel, having ended this discourse, remained silent and full of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; contemplation. A little while after we saw the tears flow out of his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eyes as big as ostrich's eggs. God take me presently if I tell you one&#xD;&#xA;&gt; single syllable of a lie in the matter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This raises the following questions: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Q1.** In which season did the incident occur: Easter? Mid-sommer? &#xD;&#xA;When could a ferry-boat bound for Italy get becalmed in Paxos, then meet contrary winds in the Straits of Corfu? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Q2.** Who did first set forth in print, and when, that the passengers and crew actually overheard the yearly weeping for Tammuz?   &#xD;&#xA;**(Edit)** Salomon Reinach alleged to have concocted the hypothesis himself in *[La mort du grand Pan][5];  Bulletin de correspondance hellénique* 1907 (Vol. 31). In a footnote, however, he acknowledged the German folklorist Felix Liebrecht as the 1st (1856) to suggest Thamous the Egyptian misheard Tammuz for his own name. Any earlier contender out there? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Q3.** Could Rabelais have heard of this alternative interpretation, and could Pantagruel, a character in French folklore, have favored it over the Christian one? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Q4.** Given that chapter 28 is explicitly about the deaths of heroes and that Rabelais does not hail Jesus as one, which one would Pantagruel be possibly weeping?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butrint&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.fullbooks.com/Gargantua-and-Pantagruel-Complete-12.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_(King_James)/Ezekiel#Chapter_8&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2978/how-did-pan-die&#xD;&#xA;  [5]:  https://doi.org/10.3406/bch.1907.3246" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24301" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="7929" RevisionGUID="bd4793fa-e15a-4bc1-b64c-80fff515afe7" CreationDate="2021-03-22T16:13:21.743" UserId="7780" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|reference-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24302" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="7927" RevisionGUID="90d43ad6-e800-4226-9e10-78aada60b608" CreationDate="2021-03-22T16:14:23.037" UserId="7780" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|trojan-war|reference-request|epic-poetry|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24303" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="7941" RevisionGUID="276fd560-120d-4f91-862f-7ff1fab5d805" CreationDate="2021-03-22T16:14:47.057" UserId="7780" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|reference-request|epic-poetry|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24305" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="7951" RevisionGUID="db2d495c-102b-4b2c-9627-8bbab0f6a383" CreationDate="2021-03-23T04:48:15.053" UserId="398" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|zeus|titans|olympians|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24307" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7949" RevisionGUID="c8abe9f8-7c73-4c78-bb8c-b7a22a4e0c35" CreationDate="2021-03-23T12:20:28.840" UserId="6897" Comment="added an possible scenario explaining Plutarch's report; corrected several mistakes &amp; typos. " Text="&#xD;&#xA;Renaissance Humanists rediscovered Plutarch and Rabelais' *Fourth Boook* of Pantagruel's adventures quotes at length a famous anecdote from &#xD;&#xA;*The Failure of the Oracles* (*Moralia,* 5-29), about a divine voice commanding one Thamous &#xD;&#xA;to proclaim the death of the great god Pan in Palodes (the seafront of [Buthrotum][1], at the outlet of lake Butrint; present-day Albania). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did Rabelais give a tongue-in-cheek explanation of the incident; &#xD;&#xA;that the voice heralded the crucifixion of Jesus while it was taking place in Jerusalem?   &#xD;&#xA;If so, who did he think was the great Pan in Plutarch's story? Was he the same hero for whom Pantagruel apparently sheds tears?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From [fullbooks.com][2], unknown translator: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Chapter 28: How Pantagruel related a very sad story of the death of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the heroes.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Epitherses, the father of Aemilian the rhetorician, sailing from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greece to Italy  in a ship freighted with divers goods and passengers,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; at night the wind failed 'em near the Echinades, some islands that lie&#xD;&#xA;&gt; between the Morea and Tunis, and the vessel was driven near Paxos.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When they were got thither, some of the passengers being asleep,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; others awake, the rest eating and drinking, a voice was heard that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; called aloud, Thamous! which cry surprised them all. This same Thamous&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was their pilot, an Egyptian by birth, but known by name only to some&#xD;&#xA;&gt; few travellers. The voice was heard a second time calling Thamous, in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a frightful tone; and none making answer, but trembling and remaining&#xD;&#xA;&gt; silent, the voice was heard a third time, more dreadful than before.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; This caused Thamous to answer: Here am I; what dost thou call me for?&#xD;&#xA;&gt; What wilt thou have me do? Then the voice, louder than before, bid him&#xD;&#xA;&gt; publish when he should come to Palodes, that the great god Pan was dead.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [...] Thamous said his advice was that if they happened to have a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fair wind they should proceed without mentioning a word on't, but if&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they chanced to be becalmed he would publish what he had heard. Now&#xD;&#xA;&gt; when they were near Palodes they had no wind, neither were they in any&#xD;&#xA;&gt; current. Thamous then getting up on the top of the ship's forecastle,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and casting his eyes on the shore, said that he had been commanded to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; proclaim that the great god Pan was dead. The words were hardly out of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his mouth, when deep groans, great lamentations, and doleful shrieks,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not of one person, but of many together, were heard from the land.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The news of this--many being present then--was soon spread at Rome;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; insomuch that Tiberius, who was then emperor, sent for this Thamous,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and having heard him gave credit to his words. And inquiring of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; learned in his court and at Rome who was that Pan, he found by their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; relation that he was the son of Mercury and Penelope, as Herodotus and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Cicero in his third book of the Nature of the Gods had written before.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then, Rabelais goes on to explain: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For my part, I understand it of that great Saviour of the faithful who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was shamefully put to death at Jerusalem by the envy and wickedness of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the doctors, priests, and monks of the Mosaic law. And methinks my&#xD;&#xA;&gt; interpretation is not improper; for he may lawfully be said in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greek tongue to be Pan, since he is our all. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [...] &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The time also concurs with this interpretation of mine; for this most&#xD;&#xA;&gt; good, most mighty Pan, our only Saviour, died near Jerusalem during&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the reign of Tiberius Caesar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A different opinion has been voiced since: Thamous the Egyptian overheard sectators of Tammuz &#xD;&#xA;reenacting the death of their deity and the lament of his consort, *cf.* [Ezekiel 8:14][3]. *Cf.* also [this post to M.S.E: Question 2978][4].  &#xD;&#xA; **(Edit)** Here is a compatible scenario: the same day that Epitherses crossed to Italy, a train of Levantine boats were doing the same, &#xD;&#xA;with plans to make their devotions together the following night.   &#xD;&#xA;One of them lagged behind and, seeing the wind slacken, they elected to land in Paxos and celebrate there instead; &#xD;&#xA;whereas, they reckoned, the rest of their party would shelter for the night at the mouth of the Butrint canal, &#xD;&#xA;not daring to navigate the narrower part of the Straits of Corfu in the dark.   &#xD;&#xA;On hearing offers for assistance in Greek from a boat drifting north, the stragglers took the opportunity to dramatize a bit the observances of their chums, &#xD;&#xA;and tasked Thamous with a somewhat cryptic message in case he was not an initiate of their cult. &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;If the worshippers were Lebanese, the incident took place in early Springtime. Which could account for the bafflement of Tiberius: &#xD;&#xA;he might have known of the Greek *Adonia*, however this took place on St John's Eve not Easter, &#xD;&#xA;and he need not know the name Adonis was the rendering of Tammuz in Greek. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rabelais closes the chapter with the following detail: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pantagruel, having ended this discourse, remained silent and full of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; contemplation. A little while after we saw the tears flow out of his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eyes as big as ostrich's eggs. God take me presently if I tell you one&#xD;&#xA;&gt; single syllable of a lie in the matter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This raises the following questions: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Q1.** In which season did the incident occur: Easter? Midsummer? &#xD;&#xA;When could a ferry-boat bound for Italy get becalmed in the Straits of Corfu after meeting contrary winds and drifting to Paxos? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Q2.** Who did first set forth in print, and when, that the passengers and crew actually overheard the yearly weeping for Tammuz?   &#xD;&#xA;**(Edit)** Salomon Reinach alleged to have concocted the hypothesis himself in *[La mort du grand Pan][5]; Bulletin de correspondance hellénique* 1907 (Vol. 31). In a footnote, however, he acknowledged the German folklorist Felix Liebrecht as the 1st (1856) &#xD;&#xA;to suggest Thamous the Egyptian misheard Tammuz for his own name. Any earlier contender out there? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Q3.** Could Rabelais have heard of this alternative interpretation, and could Pantagruel, a character from French folklore, have favored it over the Christian one?   &#xD;&#xA;**(Edit)** As a priest, he would certainly know of Origen's *Commentary on the Book of Ezekiel* which ties the Greek Adonis to the Biblical Tammuz and, &#xD;&#xA;as a Humanist, Lucian's description of the [Byblian variant][6] of the cult.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Q4.** Given that chapter 28 is explicitly about the deaths of heroes and that Rabelais does not hail Jesus as one, even if he dubs him the great Pan of Christianity, &#xD;&#xA;which hero would Pantagruel be possibly weeping?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butrint&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.fullbooks.com/Gargantua-and-Pantagruel-Complete-12.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_(King_James)/Ezekiel#Chapter_8&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/2978/how-did-pan-die&#xD;&#xA;  [5]:  https://doi.org/10.3406/bch.1907.3246&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_River" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24308" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7953" RevisionGUID="c430aefb-a878-44b7-9ba6-cbc8d4c6397b" CreationDate="2021-03-23T12:27:23.327" UserId="7315" Text="Let me start my answer by saying that Irish mythology is a complete mess, not in the sense of the myths per se, but of the sources. The division in the four major cycles is a convenient cataloguing tool, but the contents of each cycle are far from being coherent and homogeneous stories that can be easily put together in a collection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To give you an idea of how vast and fragmented the corpus of sources is, here are two websites which give a very comprehensive list of both original and translated medieval Irish texts:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/index_irish.html][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[https://celt.ucc.ie//irlpage.html][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both websites offer very reliable translations of stories from all the four cycles (the second one in particular is from the University College of Cork, if you are worried about the reliability of its contents).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My recommendation, regarding the Ulster cycle, is to start with what is considered its central text: the *Táin Bó Cúailnge*. The translation by Thomas Kinsella (titled simply &quot;The Táin&quot;) is very good and easy to find. Then, I would read &quot;Early Irish Myths and Sagas&quot; by Jeffrey Gantz. It's a collection of translated stories from the Ulster cycle with extensive commentary, which is still used in universities as an introduction to the cycle. This should cover the most popular stories from the Ulster cycle: you can then explore the lesser-known ones using the websites I linked above.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding the Mythological cycle, the two main texts I recommend reading would be the *Lebor Gabála Érenn* (also known as the Book of Invasions), whose translation by R.A.S. Macalister you can find in the first website I linked above, and the *Cath Maige Tuired* (or the Second Battle of Mag Tuired), whose translation by Elizabeth Gray is in the second website. Again, you can use both websites to find more minor texts from the Mythological cycle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I cannot recommend anything regarding the two remaning cycles, as my knowledge of them is very limited. However, I would like to mention that there is a collection of translations of tales from all four cycles by Cross and Slover called &quot;Ancient Irish Tales&quot;, which I have seen receive a lot of praise both for the quality of the translations and for its comprehensiveness. I haven't read it yet, but I plan to in the near future.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/index_irish.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://celt.ucc.ie//irlpage.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24312" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7955" RevisionGUID="676d5dbc-672e-44ce-a527-22eb44fc9523" CreationDate="2021-03-24T00:07:47.370" UserId="7838" Text="Guys: The other day I was speaking to a friend, about Brigadoon. I seem to faintly remember there is folklore, about a town in Appalachia that did the same thing. It would dissipear and reappear. But I've been unable to find anything. Has anyone heard of anything like this? It's also possible, that it was a native-american folklore as well. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks&#xD;&#xA;-Kan" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24313" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7955" RevisionGUID="676d5dbc-672e-44ce-a527-22eb44fc9523" CreationDate="2021-03-24T00:07:47.370" UserId="7838" Text="A &quot;Brigadoon&quot; But in the Appalachian Mountains?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24314" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7955" RevisionGUID="676d5dbc-672e-44ce-a527-22eb44fc9523" CreationDate="2021-03-24T00:07:47.370" UserId="7838" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24317" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7955" RevisionGUID="9630f7e0-6b33-49a3-a682-024c8c0f778a" CreationDate="2021-03-24T11:24:32.250" UserId="5726" Comment="minor fixes " Text="The other day I was speaking to a friend, about Brigadoon. I seem to faintly remember there is folklore, about a town in Appalachia that did the same thing. It would disappear and reappear. But I've been unable to find anything. Has anyone heard of anything like this? It's also possible, that it was a Native-American folklore as well. &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24318" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="7955" RevisionGUID="9630f7e0-6b33-49a3-a682-024c8c0f778a" CreationDate="2021-03-24T11:24:32.250" UserId="5726" Comment="minor fixes " Text="|myth-identification|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24319" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7957" RevisionGUID="3f523abe-b951-453b-8f15-37a3d71f0166" CreationDate="2021-03-24T14:04:33.993" UserId="7845" Text="One of them main themes within christianity is the idea of self-sacrifice: Jesus is said to have accepted crucification in order to save mankind. In contrast, in older mythologies, like the greek, the hero stories (Heracles, Perseus, Theseus) revolve more around strength and courage, sometimes cunning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What are the most famous greek myths about self-sacrifice in order to save or help others? &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24320" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7957" RevisionGUID="3f523abe-b951-453b-8f15-37a3d71f0166" CreationDate="2021-03-24T14:04:33.993" UserId="7845" Text="Greek myths centered on self-sacrifice" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24321" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7957" RevisionGUID="3f523abe-b951-453b-8f15-37a3d71f0166" CreationDate="2021-03-24T14:04:33.993" UserId="7845" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24323" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7958" RevisionGUID="14c53b00-b853-4371-b95c-128df16eae9a" CreationDate="2021-03-24T14:46:27.533" UserId="5229" Text="* [Prometheus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus) defied Zeus in order to benefit humanity, and was punished harshly for it (Aeschylus' *Prometheus Bound*)&#xD;&#xA;* [Alcestis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcestis) offered her life to save her husband's (Euripides' *Alcestis*)&#xD;&#xA;* [Iphigenia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iphigenia) allowed herself be sacrificed by her father (Euripides' *Iphigenia in Aulis*)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24325" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7960" RevisionGUID="224efecb-671a-4eb0-9584-6c23923c4072" CreationDate="2021-03-25T17:01:05.967" UserId="7070" Text="We know for sure that they weren't sextuplets, because pretty much all versions of the mythos describe Zeus as being born last. He was hidden away because Kronos had already eaten all of the previous children, and Rhea didn't want her most recent addition to the family to be eaten. This clearly tells us that they weren't all born at the same time. Wikipedia says that &quot;Cronus sired several children by Rhea: Hestia, Demeter, Hera, Hades, and Poseidon, but swallowed them all as soon as they were born, since he had learned from Gaia and Uranus that he was destined to be overthrown by his son&quot;, which raises the question of why did he eat his female children as well, but that's beyond the point. A quick Google search won't turn up anything specifically saying that they weren't all sextuplets, but all of the websites I looked at listed Zeus as the youngest. It is hard to say if they weren't all sextuplets, because there are no dates given for the births of the different gods. [This website][1] if pretty helpful. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.greekmythology.com/Olympians/Zeus/zeus.html#:~:text=Zeus%20is%20the%20Olympian%20god,his%20sister%20and%20wife%2C%20Hera." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24326" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7961" RevisionGUID="8b7ae69f-dc8d-4661-b871-cf0798da1589" CreationDate="2021-03-26T06:56:24.500" UserId="158" Text="The Argo was built with a branch from the Dodona oak which, according to numerous sources, could speak. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I’m wondering about the nature of this ability: did this “speech” make the Argo a fully developed character with opinions and desires of its own, or was it more like the magical equivalent of Siri, a voice-interface only capable of limited statements, answers to specific questions, and occasional prophecies?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24327" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7961" RevisionGUID="8b7ae69f-dc8d-4661-b871-cf0798da1589" CreationDate="2021-03-26T06:56:24.500" UserId="158" Text="Was the Argo sentient and capable of conversation, or was its speech more like Siri or the USS Enterprise computer?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24328" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7961" RevisionGUID="8b7ae69f-dc8d-4661-b871-cf0798da1589" CreationDate="2021-03-26T06:56:24.500" UserId="158" Text="|greek|magic|argonauts|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="24330" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2030" RevisionGUID="35df5014-a0e1-43cf-807f-7aec58d70faf" CreationDate="2021-03-27T00:01:45.183" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="25339" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="7941" RevisionGUID="0ec0ee28-9203-4e01-924c-8e32144b846a" CreationDate="2021-03-28T12:08:53.013" UserId="108" Comment="105" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:5726,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Tom Sol&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:6920,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Mary&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:7315,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Gullintanni&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:108,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Semaphore&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="25341" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7963" RevisionGUID="3954f59b-07f4-4da2-a102-83c042648cbb" CreationDate="2021-03-28T22:43:43.420" UserId="4962" Text="Zeus “... *spoke through the wood taken from one of his Dodonian oaks, as stated in the first book of the Argonautica (Apollonius of Rhodes, 2009), when a talking beam that Athena had made from a Dodonian oak and fitted in the middle of Argo’s keel, spoke with a terrible voice that frightened the Argonauts.*”  - [Oracle Trees in the Ancient Hellenic World][1]&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/34239630/Oracle_Trees_Greece_HPB.pdf?1405758077=&amp;response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3DOracle_Trees_in_the_Ancient_Hellenic_Wor.pdf&amp;Expires=1616974411&amp;Signature=ZIznnczRwjA3ekRevcZ46AUq778gNIQ4i0B5qDk9QdrqYgeO1ERdNgwE1CZBeyPld7nG3vJfdA3JPvHUufq0esPW0uqlEBqdQvA~PSgxYItubk2aFZBvdfz4cVLHWLKvquTCpgX2toGsGWyUs58HNdd1Vwk2bvuvudVjQ~rRbAEkH5xEqBtUtoAUri05y2bP9qKcWha52fBbduP7Ii68aacR5~9DyqaQRVHa4NQo65Hr-3-bXtYmoXOu76IcAYzzGlYJQsSTLs7XzDrQ46o0pJvoLOve-PEQNwboKi-L1rMnMD5R0fUfQY8E4R5rrtDYUgf4EO4a38eW2q5UgW6v4Q__&amp;Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25342" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7963" RevisionGUID="be502d64-b788-413c-9f68-8edf098ccec6" CreationDate="2021-03-28T22:49:19.673" UserId="4962" Comment="added 46 characters in body" Text="I would say Argo was not self aware. Instead, Zeus “... *spoke through the wood taken from one of his Dodonian oaks, as stated in the first book of the Argonautica (Apollonius of Rhodes, 2009), when a talking beam that Athena had made from a Dodonian oak and fitted in the middle of Argo’s keel, spoke with a terrible voice that frightened the Argonauts.*”  - [Oracle Trees in the Ancient Hellenic World][1]&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/34239630/Oracle_Trees_Greece_HPB.pdf?1405758077=&amp;response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3DOracle_Trees_in_the_Ancient_Hellenic_Wor.pdf&amp;Expires=1616974411&amp;Signature=ZIznnczRwjA3ekRevcZ46AUq778gNIQ4i0B5qDk9QdrqYgeO1ERdNgwE1CZBeyPld7nG3vJfdA3JPvHUufq0esPW0uqlEBqdQvA~PSgxYItubk2aFZBvdfz4cVLHWLKvquTCpgX2toGsGWyUs58HNdd1Vwk2bvuvudVjQ~rRbAEkH5xEqBtUtoAUri05y2bP9qKcWha52fBbduP7Ii68aacR5~9DyqaQRVHa4NQo65Hr-3-bXtYmoXOu76IcAYzzGlYJQsSTLs7XzDrQ46o0pJvoLOve-PEQNwboKi-L1rMnMD5R0fUfQY8E4R5rrtDYUgf4EO4a38eW2q5UgW6v4Q__&amp;Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25343" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7964" RevisionGUID="99368b1f-e72a-4409-abad-e319fbae77bd" CreationDate="2021-03-29T03:29:00.983" UserId="7869" Text="This sounds like a &quot;Liminal diety&quot;. I basically googled a mythological being that can see your soul and access doors and this immediately popped up. There seems to be many of this kind of diety and tons of examples. My source that I'm listing is from wikipedia but a simple google search will get you many other deep dives into other sources if you desire since it is a broad term.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources:&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liminal_deity" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25345" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7966" RevisionGUID="d34a5d6c-7ef6-40c3-b449-14af30ddd6a7" CreationDate="2021-03-30T09:05:46.500" UserId="7755" Text="**Humblus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I was reading up about legendary Danish kings when I came across a character named Humblus and a rather sensational claim is made at the bottom of the article, and that claim is that political nominees would stand on standing stones during election and the person with the tallest standing stone will likely get the votes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Humblus, Wikipedia][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The ancients, when they were to choose a king, were wont to stand on stones planted in the ground, and to proclaim their votes, in order to foreshadow from the steadfastness of the stones that the deed would be lasting. By this ceremony Humble was elected king at his father's death, thus winning a novel favour from his country;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Chronicon Lethrense**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apparently the practise of standing on stones at election is discussed in a number of sources, including the Chronicon Lethrense. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the [Chronicon Lethrense][2] only records mythology and folklore, and not historical fact.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Humblus, Wikipedia][1]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The standing on stones in connection with the choosing a king is a motive known from other Scandinavian sources. It occurs both in Chronicon Lethrense and Olaus Magnus's Swedish history.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Corineus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are however mythological depictions of ancient legendary/mythological kings standing on standing stones at election, such as Corineus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Corineus, Wikipedia][3]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Corineus, in medieval British legend, was a prodigious warrior, a fighter of giants, and the eponymous founder of Cornwall.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Corineus by F W Fairholt FSA - Fairholt, F W (1859), Gog and Magog: Wikipedia][4]&#xD;&#xA;[![One of two wooden figures displayed in the Guildhall in London, carved by Captain Richard Saunders in 1709, replacing earlier wicker and pasteboard effigies which were traditionally carried in the Lord Mayor's Show. They represented Gogmagog and Corineus, but were later known as Gog and Magog. Both figures were destroyed during the London Blitz in 1940; new figures were carved in 1953.][5]][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Is the practise of standing on stones at election consigned to mythology and folklore?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So my question is, is this practise consigned to mythology and folklore, or is there actual archaeological or historical reasons to believe this practise may actually be factual?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humblus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronicon_Lethrense&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corineus&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corineus#/media/File:Corineus_the_Giant_in_Guildhall_1859.png&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ZXm5v.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25346" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7966" RevisionGUID="d34a5d6c-7ef6-40c3-b449-14af30ddd6a7" CreationDate="2021-03-30T09:05:46.500" UserId="7755" Text="Is the practise of standing on stones at election consigned to mythology and folklore?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25347" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7966" RevisionGUID="d34a5d6c-7ef6-40c3-b449-14af30ddd6a7" CreationDate="2021-03-30T09:05:46.500" UserId="7755" Text="|norse|mythohistory|history|british|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25348" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7966" RevisionGUID="e6cc8fd9-77f1-4b4e-9e92-8499581afa89" CreationDate="2021-03-30T09:12:28.253" UserId="7755" Comment="deleted 13 characters in body" Text="**Humblus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I was reading up about legendary Danish kings when I came across a character named Humblus and a rather sensational claim is made at the bottom of the article, and that claim is that political nominees would stand on standing stones during election and the person with the tallest standing stone will likely get the votes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Humblus, Wikipedia][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The ancients, when they were to choose a king, were wont to stand on stones planted in the ground, and to proclaim their votes, in order to foreshadow from the steadfastness of the stones that the deed would be lasting. By this ceremony Humble was elected king at his father's death, thus winning a novel favour from his country;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Chronicon Lethrense**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apparently the practise of standing on stones at election is discussed in a number of sources, including the Chronicon Lethrense. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the [Chronicon Lethrense][2] only records mythology and folklore, and not historical fact.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Humblus, Wikipedia][1]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The standing on stones in connection with the choosing a king is a motive known from other Scandinavian sources. It occurs both in Chronicon Lethrense and Olaus Magnus's Swedish history.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Corineus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are however depictions of ancient legendary/mythological kings standing on standing stones at election, such as Corineus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Corineus, Wikipedia][3]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Corineus, in medieval British legend, was a prodigious warrior, a fighter of giants, and the eponymous founder of Cornwall.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Corineus by F W Fairholt FSA - Fairholt, F W (1859), Gog and Magog: Wikipedia][4]&#xD;&#xA;[![One of two wooden figures displayed in the Guildhall in London, carved by Captain Richard Saunders in 1709, replacing earlier wicker and pasteboard effigies which were traditionally carried in the Lord Mayor's Show. They represented Gogmagog and Corineus, but were later known as Gog and Magog. Both figures were destroyed during the London Blitz in 1940; new figures were carved in 1953.][5]][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Is the practise of standing on stones at election consigned to mythology and folklore?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So my question is, is this practise consigned to mythology and folklore, or is there actual archaeological or historical reasons to believe this practise may actually be factual?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humblus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronicon_Lethrense&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corineus&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corineus#/media/File:Corineus_the_Giant_in_Guildhall_1859.png&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ZXm5v.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25349" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7967" RevisionGUID="fef2129d-58d9-478c-8c47-4e7b78fc1787" CreationDate="2021-03-30T18:38:47.610" UserDisplayName="user7559" Text="While studying the geography of ancient Rome, and particular the position of the Colosseum, I noticed via a live webcam stream replay of the Colosseum, that the full moon and sun settles over (or appearing to settle into) the Colosseum when viewed from the adjacent gladiator gymnasium.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am aware of some of the deities of ancient Rome, such as Luna and Sol, and the significance of both deities in Mithraic tauroctony. Also, that [Varro lists Luna][1] as one deity vital for agriculture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This lead me to wonder if the Colosseum was conceived as a public temple or place of worship, whereby attendees would participate in a sort of collective act of ritual sacrifice such as [illustrated in the relief][2] of Marcus Aurelius depicted sacrificing a bull in front of the Temple of Jupiter... to ensure good crops and harvest, or appeasement, for example.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am seeking to confirm my hypothesis that the Colosseum is in fact a place of worship based on my observation of how the building appears to interact with the sun and moon, and in light of related deities and ancient Roman cults in general.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I haven't been able to find any specific (academic, contemporary) information relating to the religious significance of the Colosseum as it pertains to the position of the sun and moon (e.g. in the same way the Giza Pyramids relate to the position of the constellation Orion, although presumably for entirely different religious reason).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**My question:** in general, is there any information about the religious significance of the Colosseum as it relates, in this case, to the worship of Luna and Sol?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is reasonable to suggest that the position of the Colosseum in relation to the motion of the sun and moon (symbolically) relates to the Roman Mithraic Mysteries.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luna_(goddess)#Cult_and_temples&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bas_relief_from_Arch_of_Marcus_Aurelius_showing_sacrifice.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25350" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7967" RevisionGUID="fef2129d-58d9-478c-8c47-4e7b78fc1787" CreationDate="2021-03-30T18:38:47.610" UserDisplayName="user7559" Text="Colosseum: religious significance of setting sun and moon?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25351" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7967" RevisionGUID="fef2129d-58d9-478c-8c47-4e7b78fc1787" CreationDate="2021-03-30T18:38:47.610" UserDisplayName="user7559" Text="|roman|goddesses|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25352" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7967" RevisionGUID="55722425-3ee4-457b-a5fd-65186dac2787" CreationDate="2021-03-30T18:46:30.543" UserDisplayName="user7559" Comment="Clarify question." Text="While studying the geography of ancient Rome, and particular the position of the Colosseum, I noticed via a live webcam stream replay of the Colosseum, that the full moon and sun settles over (or appearing to settle into) the Colosseum when viewed from the adjacent gladiator gymnasium.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am aware of some of the deities of ancient Rome, such as Luna and Sol, and the significance of both deities in Mithraic tauroctony. Also, that [Varro lists Luna][1] as one deity vital for agriculture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This lead me to wonder if the Colosseum was conceived as a public temple or place of worship, whereby attendees would participate in a sort of collective act of ritual sacrifice such as [illustrated in the relief][2] of Marcus Aurelius depicted sacrificing a bull in front of the Temple of Jupiter... to ensure good crops and harvest, or appeasement, for example.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am seeking to confirm my hypothesis that the Colosseum is in fact a place of worship based on my observation of how the building appears to interact with the sun and moon, and in light of related deities and ancient Roman cults in general.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I haven't been able to find any specific (academic, contemporary) information relating to the religious significance of the Colosseum as it pertains to the position of the sun and moon (e.g. in the same way the Giza Pyramids relate to the position of the constellation Orion, although presumably for entirely different religious reason).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**My question:** in general, is there any information about the religious significance of the Colosseum as it relates, in this case, to the worship of Luna and Sol?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I believe it is reasonable to suggest that the position of the Colosseum in relation to the motion of the sun and moon (symbolically) could relate to the Roman Mithraic Mysteries, which might explain the position of the Colosseum (East/West).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: perhaps in the same way Hadrian's Wall might have been designed to symbolise the Roman Empires universality.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luna_(goddess)#Cult_and_temples&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bas_relief_from_Arch_of_Marcus_Aurelius_showing_sacrifice.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25353" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7967" RevisionGUID="5314338a-5baa-4b8a-92b5-9b68f8405f0a" CreationDate="2021-03-30T18:52:04.420" UserDisplayName="user7559" Comment="Clarify question." Text="While studying the geography of ancient Rome, and particular the position of the Colosseum, I noticed on a [live webcam time-lapse replay][1] of the Colosseum, that the full moon and sun settles over (or appearing to settle into) the Colosseum when viewed from the adjacent gladiator gymnasium.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am aware of some of the deities of ancient Rome, such as Luna and Sol, and the significance of both deities in Mithraic tauroctony. Also, that [Varro lists Luna][2] as one deity vital for agriculture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This lead me to wonder if the Colosseum was conceived as a public temple or place of worship, whereby attendees would participate in a sort of collective act of ritual sacrifice such as [illustrated in the relief][3] of Marcus Aurelius depicted sacrificing a bull in front of the Temple of Jupiter... to ensure good crops and harvest, or appeasement, for example.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am seeking to confirm my hypothesis that the Colosseum is in fact a place of worship based on my observation of how the building appears to interact with the sun and moon, and in light of related deities and ancient Roman cults in general.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I haven't been able to find any specific (academic, contemporary) information relating to the religious significance of the Colosseum as it pertains to the position of the sun and moon (e.g. in the same way the Giza Pyramids relate to the position of the constellation Orion).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**My question:** in general, is there any information about the religious significance of the Colosseum as it relates, in this case, to the worship of Luna and Sol?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I believe it is reasonable to suggest that the position of the Colosseum in relation to the motion of the sun and moon (symbolically) could relate to the Roman Mithraic Mysteries, which might explain the position of the Colosseum (East/West).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: perhaps in the same way Hadrian's Wall might have been designed to symbolise the Roman Empires universality.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.skylinewebcams.com/en/webcam/italia/lazio/roma/roma-colosseo/timelapse.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luna_(goddess)#Cult_and_temples&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bas_relief_from_Arch_of_Marcus_Aurelius_showing_sacrifice.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25354" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7967" RevisionGUID="f500db11-2343-4acf-9aac-0aa16c0b60c0" CreationDate="2021-03-30T20:44:25.480" UserDisplayName="user7559" Comment="Clarify question." Text="While studying the geography of ancient Rome, and particular the position of the Colosseum, I noticed on a [live webcam time-lapse replay][1] of the Colosseum, that the full moon and sun settles over (or appearing to settle into) the Colosseum when viewed from the adjacent gladiator gymnasium.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am aware of some of the deities of ancient Rome, such as Luna and Sol, and the significance of both deities in Mithraic tauroctony. Also, that [Varro lists Luna][2] as one deity vital for agriculture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This lead me to wonder if the Colosseum was conceived as a public temple or place of worship, whereby attendees would participate in a sort of collective act of ritual sacrifice such as [illustrated in the relief][3] of Marcus Aurelius depicted sacrificing a bull in front of the Temple of Jupiter... to ensure good crops and harvest, or appeasement, for example.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am seeking to confirm my hypothesis that the Colosseum is in fact a place of worship based on my observation of how the building appears to interact with the sun and moon, and in light of related deities and ancient Roman cults in general.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I haven't been able to find any specific (academic, contemporary) information relating to the religious significance of the Colosseum as it pertains to the position of the sun and moon (e.g. in the same way the Giza Pyramids relate to the position of the constellation Orion).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**My question:** in general, is there any information about the religious significance of the Colosseum as it relates, in this case, to the worship of Luna and Sol?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I believe it is reasonable to suggest that the position of the Colosseum in relation to the motion of the sun and moon (symbolically) could relate to the Roman Mithraic Mysteries, which might explain the position of the Colosseum (East/West).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: perhaps in the same way Hadrian's Wall might have been designed to symbolise the Roman Empires universality.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Edit:** '*in the Middle Ages, the Colosseum was thought to be a Roman temple to the sun because of the presence of statue of Nero-turned-Helios that stood next to it*'.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other reference related to the connection between the statue and the amphitheatre: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_of_Nero][4].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.skylinewebcams.com/en/webcam/italia/lazio/roma/roma-colosseo/timelapse.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luna_(goddess)#Cult_and_temples&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bas_relief_from_Arch_of_Marcus_Aurelius_showing_sacrifice.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_of_Nero" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25355" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1892" RevisionGUID="b07ad0f7-32dc-497a-a86a-cac8689ec55e" CreationDate="2021-03-31T06:41:22.167" UserId="7836" Comment="Krishna incarnated in the Dwapara Yuga and not Treta Yuga. RAma was there in the Treta" Text="In Hindu mythology, Trinity was always at a higher level than the lower deities like Indra etc. Vedas recognize the trinity as being superior and there are numerous examples throughout mythology where Indra and others used to reach out to the trinity to help with their problems (usually with some demons etc that got too strong for Indra and others). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There never was a scenario where the trinity and other deities were at the same level either in mythology or in contemporary culture/traditions and then something came to pass that increased the status of trinity. The reason for this is that, in Hindu creationism trinity come into being first. Then they, using their powers, create rest of the universe including the lower deities. The exact process by which the lower deities come into being varies but the important thing being that they are created afterwards and therefore are lower in status. We humans, Indra, rest of the pantheon, demons, what have you can be considered children of trinity (for this discussion).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding the mindset of people, in the vedic times it was a common practice for people to worship both trinity and the lower deities. Trinity were still considered to be at a much higher level but the lower deities were also given their dues. Some of it happened because people feared the lower deities (like losing their crops if Indra gets upset and brings a flood etc, which he could and did) and some of it was just tradition. In summary, the trinity were always considered separate and a much higher entity than the lower deities both in mythology and contemporary culture, but the lower deities were still worshiped as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, to answer your second question, what caused the people to eventually stop worshiping the lower deities (specifically Indra) - If we go by the mythology, this began changing in Dwapara Yuga when Vishnu incarnated as Krishna. Krishna actively dissuaded people from worshiping lower deities (and any other local gods, forest gods, tree gods, what have you) and exerted strong influence to move people towards monotheism. Gradually people stopped worshiping the lower gods/deities and when Indra got upset and tried to punish people, Krishna protected them from his wrath very publicly to prove his superiority. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then in Geeta, Krishna effectively sealed the deal by explicitly stating that no matter who you worship, you're effectively worshiping the one God, even if by proxy. He also stated that He himself likes the worshipers who understand His true nature (that is, one God) and the worshipers who worshiped him directly got better results than those who did it by proxy. This coupled with Krishna publicly showing people that He can easily protect them from Indra (the king of gods) if they don't worship Indra left no reason for the people to worship any of the lower deities&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There were no &quot;fights&quot; between Trinity and lower deities simply because trinity would simply destroy Indra and others and replace them with their newer versions in a blink of an eye (Shiva literally did that with Kama, no pun intended, when Kama tried to go against him). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, the final nail in the coffin was during the last 2000-3000 years or so when Puranas were finalized and depicted Indra involved in various &quot;ungodly&quot; scandals and then more so in Bhakti kaal when Tulsidas and others further popularized incarnations of Vishnu and Shiva (Ram, Krishna, Hanuman etc). Before this people used to worship Shiva, Vishnu and different variations of adi shakti mata but Bhakti kaal resulted in the further popularization of many of the reincarnations as well. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: The lower deities aren't completely dead, so to say. They're still worshiped in Hawans and rituals and what not as part of tradition. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25356" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1892" RevisionGUID="b07ad0f7-32dc-497a-a86a-cac8689ec55e" CreationDate="2021-03-31T06:41:22.167" Comment="Proposed by 7836 approved by 5726, 1241 edit id of 1860" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25358" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1605" RevisionGUID="53d7c6f6-8f98-454b-b466-8047b2a22e48" CreationDate="2021-03-31T21:37:39.487" UserId="2654" Comment="Added author tag." Text="|greek|odyssey|homer|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25359" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1605" RevisionGUID="53d7c6f6-8f98-454b-b466-8047b2a22e48" CreationDate="2021-03-31T21:37:39.487" Comment="Proposed by 2654 approved by -1 edit id of 1864" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25360" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1605" RevisionGUID="465ef70b-04d9-41d4-a9dd-fea487ac2ff8" CreationDate="2021-03-31T21:37:39.487" UserId="1224" Comment="Added tags." Text="|greek|odyssey|homer|trojan-war|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25361" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7969" RevisionGUID="3651a4b3-a3f5-4b5f-bb3d-acba1ce40c01" CreationDate="2021-04-01T00:36:54.297" UserId="158" Text="The Greek gods interacted face-to-face with humans and demi-gods on numerous occasions. For just one example, several of them fought on the battlefields of Troy, presumably standing right next to hundreds of other warriors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In such instances, are the gods described as being especially large? Did they tower over the battlefield like Sauron in the opening scene of the LOTR movies, or were they essentially the size of all the other people on the battlefield?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have always pictured the Greek gods as mostly human-sized (when they weren't deliberately shapeshifting of course), but I recently encountered several people who argued that the Greeks envisioned them as giants on the scale of the statues in their temples. I'm wondering if there is any source for that impression?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25362" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7969" RevisionGUID="3651a4b3-a3f5-4b5f-bb3d-acba1ce40c01" CreationDate="2021-04-01T00:36:54.297" UserId="158" Text="Putting aside their ability to shapeshift, were the Greek gods especially large compared to humans?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25363" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7969" RevisionGUID="3651a4b3-a3f5-4b5f-bb3d-acba1ce40c01" CreationDate="2021-04-01T00:36:54.297" UserId="158" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25364" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1484" RevisionGUID="e594b50f-020d-42c9-863b-ac91e9e7a390" CreationDate="2021-04-01T10:42:26.950" UserId="2654" Comment="Added book tag and war tag." Text="|greek|odyssey|trojan-war|homer|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25365" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1484" RevisionGUID="e594b50f-020d-42c9-863b-ac91e9e7a390" CreationDate="2021-04-01T10:42:26.950" Comment="Proposed by 2654 approved by 2682, 53 edit id of 1863" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25366" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1715" RevisionGUID="c2ee0649-57d1-4e21-99d1-d559f4730015" CreationDate="2021-04-01T20:22:39.670" UserId="2654" Comment="Added tag." Text="|greek|egyptian|trojan-war|homer|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25367" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1715" RevisionGUID="c2ee0649-57d1-4e21-99d1-d559f4730015" CreationDate="2021-04-01T20:22:39.670" Comment="Proposed by 2654 approved by 2682, 5726 edit id of 1865" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25369" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7970" RevisionGUID="af9ab786-2034-458e-80f0-44773ed4b424" CreationDate="2021-04-03T13:54:05.520" UserId="7315" Text="I've been meaning to write a detailed answer to this question for a while, so here it is. The short answer would be:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**We don't (and may never) know for sure, since direct evidence on how pre-Christian Scandinavian religions were practiced is extremely scant.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, let me review some of the current knowledge we have on this topic that might shed some light on whether Norse people had a concept of patron or tutelary deities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## **Place-name evidence**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his article [How uniform was the Old Norse religion?][1], Stefan Brink gives a very nice overview on the distribution of theophoric place-names in continental Scandinavia. He provides maps for the most represented Norse gods (Frey, Thor, Odin, Ull, and Tyr), from which he draws the conclusion that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; different cults seem to have been distinctly regional in many cases. [...] A regional cult of Ullinn is demonstrable for the&#xD;&#xA;central and western areas of Norway, and only there. Týr was obviously an important&#xD;&#xA;god in Denmark — probably the most important — according to the place&#xD;&#xA;names there. [...] This is a strong indication that the pagan ‘religion’ in early Scandinavia was never&#xD;&#xA;homogeneous. There were obviously regional cults of certain gods and goddesses.&#xD;&#xA;Ullr and Freyr had a distinct regional cult in the Svea-dominated area in Sweden&#xD;&#xA;and around Viken in Norway. The cult of Ullinn was a local cult in central Norway.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## **Evidence against a unified Norse Pantheon**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Terry Gunnell, basing his considerations on archaeological evidence, place-names, and a thorough study of the available medieval literature, published a series of papers in which he argues against the notion of a Norse panthenon, in the way it is presented in Snorri's Edda, in some poems of the Poetic Edda, as well in Adam of Bremen's account on the temple at Uppsala. His conclusions are summarized in [Pantheon? What Pantheon?][2] (see references therein for more material on this subject). In particular, he argues against the idea of a coherent Pantheon universally recognized throughout Scandinavia, with each god associated to a specific function or social class (e.g. Thor=Warrior class, Frey=Fertility, Odin=Magic):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [...] there is reason to consider that many of the gods&#xD;&#xA;known in the Germanic and Scandinavian world were tribally-, area-, or&#xD;&#xA;clan- (family-) related rather than bound to social classes [...]. There seems to be little evidence to suggest that rural communities ever&#xD;&#xA;worshipped&#xD;&#xA;a range of gods (even if they had heard of the gods worshipped&#xD;&#xA;by other people).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In particular, on Adam of Bremen's account he says:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[...] why Þórr, Freyr and Óðinn&#xD;&#xA;should appear together in Adam of Bremen’s earlier-noted description of&#xD;&#xA;Gamla Uppsala? [...] it should be remembered that&#xD;&#xA;the festival described by Adam was a large-scale “national” gathering of&#xD;&#xA;people from different communities within a wide area, who may well&#xD;&#xA;have had different religious backgrounds. It was not an annual occurrence&#xD;&#xA;(taking place every nine years).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## **Tacitus's Germania and Germanic tribal gods**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First of all, I would like to point out that using Tacitus's account to infer information on Norse religious practices should be done with extreme care, as it relates the customs of Germanic peoples centuries before the earliest developments of what would then become Norse culture. Nevertheless, it is interesting to note that he makes explicit mention of tribal ancestor cults among various Germanic peoples:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In ancient lays, their only type of historical tradition, they celebrate Tuisto, a god brought forth from the earth. They attribute to him a son, Mannus, the source and founder of their people, and to Mannus three sons, from whose names those nearest the Ocean are called Ingvaeones, those in the middle Herminones, and the rest Istvaeones. Some people, inasmuch as antiquity gives free rein to speculation, maintain that there were more sons born from the god and hence more tribal designations—Marsi, Gambrivii, Suebi, and Vandilii—and that those names are genuine and ancient.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The particular case of the Ingvaeones has attracted the interest of many scholars because of the similarity of their name with [Yngvi][3], another name of Norse god Frey. Here's what Gunnell has to say on the matter in the above-mentioned article:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Place-name evidence (Brink 2007: 109–11), Saxo Grammaticus&#xD;&#xA;(1979: 174), and even Snorri Sturluson (1941–51: I, 24–25) all suggest&#xD;&#xA;that Freyr’s cult was geographically connected to the Uppland area,&#xD;&#xA;and the Ynglingar kings (Vikstrand 2001: 55–71; and Sundqvist 2002).&#xD;&#xA;There are also obvious connections to the Ingvaeones tribe (Tacitus 1948:&#xD;&#xA;102), something which once again encourages consideration of whether&#xD;&#xA;the Old Norse gods might not have originally been earlier more tribaland/&#xD;&#xA;or geographical- rather than class-orientated, and whether they, like&#xD;&#xA;the matronæ and dísir (see Gunnell 2005a) might not have been seen&#xD;&#xA;as independent figures at the head of cults which were also connected&#xD;&#xA;to ancestor spirits, as Philip Shaw suggests (Shaw 2011: 47, 71–72, and&#xD;&#xA;99–100).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarly, I would like to add that also the Saxons were known to venerate a national patron god by the name [Saxnot][4], along with the universally known Germanic gods Wodan and Thor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## **Conclusion**&#xD;&#xA;To conlude, even though the scarcity of direct evidence prevents us from making strong statements on Norse religious practices, modern studies point to the possibility of Norse religion being much more regional, tribe- (or clan-) based and henotheistic than how it is presented in works like Snorri's Edda and in part of the Eddic poetic corpus. For this reason it is reasonable to expect that specific deities would play the role of protectors or patrons of specific regions, tribes or, at a smaller scale, even single clans and families.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.academia.edu/15349092/How_uniform_was_the_Old_Norse_religion&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.academia.edu/20384683/Pantheon_What_Pantheon&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yngvi&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seaxn%C4%93at" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25370" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7971" RevisionGUID="77f8f3cc-e5dd-41bd-9fa9-247c4e5bc47d" CreationDate="2021-04-04T03:30:57.373" UserId="2682" Text="As far as I have been able to find, no myth specifies anything tantamount to these siblings being sextuplets. There is, however, one ancient story which claims that four of them were twins, that is to say that there were two separate sets of twins, and that Zeus was one of the older set thereof.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**A Different Sort of Multiple Birth**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The 4th-century-BC mythographer Euhemerus wrote extensively under the notion that the gods, originally, were merely mortal rulers, conquerors and heroes whose great deeds in life caused them to be revered to such a degree that, after their deaths, they were venerated as immortal beings. This technique of rationalising the myths has, from him, come to be known as *euhemerism*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Euhemerus wrote a theogony which does not survive but, as summarised by Wikipedia, &quot;Ennius translated Euhemerus into Latin about a hundred years later, and a passage from his version was in turn preserved by the early Christian writer Lactantius.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to this rendition, which Lactantius narrates in his *Divine Institutes* 1.14, Hestia had two sons: Kronos [Cronus] and Titan; and two daughters: Demeter and Rhea. Titan, who was older than Kronos, should have become king, but then, because Kronos was more handsome, all the three women in the family supported his bid to the throne.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The two brothers came to a compromise. Kronos would become king after all but any male child that he had would be done away with so that eventually the children of Titan would inherit the throne after their uncle. Kronos was married to Rhea, and their firstborn son was killed, presumably as soon as he was born. He remains unnamed, but after that Rhea gave birth to twins: Zeus and Hera. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Next up, Poseidon was born alone, followed by more twins, called Hades and Glauke (or, per the Roman names they are supplied with by Lactantius, Pluto and Glauca). All the boys were hidden from Kronos, while Glauke, who seems to be otherwise unknown, &quot;then died young.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The More Common Tradition**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the more mainstream version of the mythology, however, it appears to be almost certain that Zeus, at the very least, was *not* the product of a multiple birth. The accounts given by certain different writers regarding this can be read as being ambiguous enough to imply that Zeus, the youngest of Rhea's offspring, was born separately from his five older siblings, and that these other five were quintuplets. There is, however, no narration that makes any such explicit claim about a multiple birth prior to Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most clear-cut statement on the Question would be from the Roman poet Ovid's *Fasti* 4.199-203, which says that Kronos, out of fear regarding the prophecy about his own kids overthrowing him, &quot;devours his offspring as each was born, and entombs them in his bowels.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Resulting from this, it came to be that&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *saepe* [&quot;often/ frequently&quot;] Rhea complained of *totiens fecunda* [&quot;much pregnancy&quot; or &quot;frequent fruitfulness&quot;] but no motherhood, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; she was aggrieved by her own fertility.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The very next words go on to say that then “Jove [*i.e. Zeus*] was born”, whereupon Kronos was tricked into swallowing the stone decoy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A Greek author, Diodorus Siculus, records in his *Library of History* 5.70.2 that&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kronos *pleonákis* [&quot;time and again&quot; or &quot;repeatedly&quot;] did away with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the children whom he begot...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going by those two accounts, particularly in the former, it would mean that Rhea gave birth at least three times, with Zeus having his own separate birth-date.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Strabo's *Geography* 10.3.11, Kronos was *eithismenon*, &quot;accustomed,&quot; to swallowing his children, and that Rhea, apparently in consequence of this, contrived to hide Zeus's birth (and perhaps the whole pregnancy itself, &quot;her travail&quot;) from the child's father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus' *Library* 1.1.6 narrates the incident using similar terms to those of Strabo in that Rhea seems to only become “big” or “heavy” (i.e. pregnant) with Zeus after the first five children (all listed by name in the previous line) have been  swallowed by Kronos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going all the way back to Hesiod's *Theogony* (Lines 464-492 thereof), a good amount of time appears to have passed between Kronos swallowing his children and Rhea being ready to give birth to her lastborn child Zeus. In between the descriptions of the first children being devoured and Rhea's preparations for Zeus, the Titaness grieves, then plots with her parents about how to rescue her last child, and is sent by them to Crete, where she delivers Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, there is an Arkadian [Arcadian] version of the myth reported to us by Pausanias in his *Description of Greece* 8.36.2, which claims that Zeus was born on Mt Lykaios [Lycaeus] in Arkadia [Arcadia]. Before this, however, Rhea, when she &quot;was pregnant with Zeus,&quot; had fled to another Arkadian mountain, named Thaumasios (the &quot;Mountain of Wonders&quot;), where she enlisted a squad of Gigantes (Giants) to be her bodyguard &quot;in case Kronos should attack her,&quot; and these were led by a certain Hoplodamos (the &quot;Armed Man&quot;). It was therefore also on Mt Lykaios that Kronos was deceived and swallowed the stone substitute for the baby.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The amount of activity, scheming and travelling in which Rhea engages in the *Theogony* and in this passage of Pausanias, in between the births of her first five children and that of Zeus, strongly suggest that this was not envisioned as taking place all on the same day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Somewhat closer to Euhemerus' version, the Roman writer Hyginus (in 139 of his *Fabulae*), makes mention of an unusual account in which Hera is apparently all grown up by the time Zeus is born and it is she who rescues Zeus by taking him to Crete Island to be there hidden away from Kronos. Meanwhile Hades and Poseidon have also already been born, and their father has cast them, respectively, into the Underworld and into the depths of the sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If, from this, one were to infer that Hera, Hades and Poseidon, at least, were fully grown before Zeus was born, this might settle the issue in favour of the conclusion that they could therefore not have been sextuplets (or even quadruplets if we counted these three together with Zeus).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is, however, the fact that the childhoods of the gods can be unusually brief, or that they are capable of incredible feats within mere hours their birth, as attested particularly in the tale told of how Artemis was born and very shortly thereafter became one of the midwives aiding in the delivery of her own twin brother Apollo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So there is no ancient source which explicitly denies that Zeus and his older siblings were sextuplets, but the most detailed narrations of their story appear to me to be intending several separate births." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25372" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7970" RevisionGUID="b617093f-f1b7-4834-83f8-ae2ccd246ae0" CreationDate="2021-04-06T12:25:40.423" UserId="7315" Comment="edited body" Text="I've been meaning to write a detailed answer to this question for a while, so here it is. The short answer would be:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**We don't (and may never) know for sure, since direct evidence on how pre-Christian Scandinavian religions were practiced is extremely scant.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, let me review some of the current knowledge we have on this topic that might shed some light on whether Norse people had a concept of patron or tutelary deities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## **Place-name evidence**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his article [How uniform was the Old Norse religion?][1], Stefan Brink gives a very nice overview on the distribution of theophoric place-names in continental Scandinavia. He provides maps for the most represented Norse gods (Frey, Thor, Odin, Ull, and Tyr), from which he draws the conclusion that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; different cults seem to have been distinctly regional in many cases. [...] A regional cult of Ullinn is demonstrable for the&#xD;&#xA;central and western areas of Norway, and only there. Týr was obviously an important&#xD;&#xA;god in Denmark — probably the most important — according to the place&#xD;&#xA;names there. [...] This is a strong indication that the pagan ‘religion’ in early Scandinavia was never&#xD;&#xA;homogeneous. There were obviously regional cults of certain gods and goddesses.&#xD;&#xA;Ullr and Freyr had a distinct regional cult in the Svea-dominated area in Sweden&#xD;&#xA;and around Viken in Norway. The cult of Ullinn was a local cult in central Norway.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## **Evidence against a unified Norse Pantheon**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Terry Gunnell, basing his considerations on archaeological evidence, place-names, and a thorough study of the available medieval literature, published a series of papers in which he argues against the notion of a Norse panthenon, in the way it is presented in Snorri's Edda, in some poems of the Poetic Edda, as well in Adam of Bremen's account on the temple at Uppsala. His conclusions are summarized in [Pantheon? What Pantheon?][2] (see references therein for more material on this subject). In particular, he argues against the idea of a coherent Pantheon universally recognized throughout Scandinavia, with each god associated to a specific function or social class (e.g. Thor=Warrior class, Frey=Fertility, Odin=Magic):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [...] there is reason to consider that many of the gods&#xD;&#xA;known in the Germanic and Scandinavian world were tribally-, area-, or&#xD;&#xA;clan- (family-) related rather than bound to social classes [...]. There seems to be little evidence to suggest that rural communities ever&#xD;&#xA;worshipped&#xD;&#xA;a range of gods (even if they had heard of the gods worshipped&#xD;&#xA;by other people).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In particular, on Adam of Bremen's account he says:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[...] why Þórr, Freyr and Óðinn&#xD;&#xA;should appear together in Adam of Bremen’s earlier-noted description of&#xD;&#xA;Gamla Uppsala? [...] it should be remembered that&#xD;&#xA;the festival described by Adam was a large-scale “national” gathering of&#xD;&#xA;people from different communities within a wide area, who may well&#xD;&#xA;have had different religious backgrounds. It was not an annual occurrence&#xD;&#xA;(taking place every nine years).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## **Tacitus's Germania and Germanic tribal gods**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First of all, I would like to point out that using Tacitus's account to infer information on Norse religious practices should be done with extreme care, as it relates the customs of Germanic peoples centuries before the earliest developments of what would then become Norse culture. Nevertheless, it is interesting to note that he makes explicit mention of tribal ancestor cults among various Germanic peoples:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In ancient lays, their only type of historical tradition, they celebrate Tuisto, a god brought forth from the earth. They attribute to him a son, Mannus, the source and founder of their people, and to Mannus three sons, from whose names those nearest the Ocean are called Ingvaeones, those in the middle Herminones, and the rest Istvaeones. Some people, inasmuch as antiquity gives free rein to speculation, maintain that there were more sons born from the god and hence more tribal designations—Marsi, Gambrivii, Suebi, and Vandilii—and that those names are genuine and ancient.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The particular case of the Ingvaeones has attracted the interest of many scholars because of the similarity of their name with [Yngvi][3], another name of Norse god Frey. Here's what Gunnell has to say on the matter in the above-mentioned article:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Place-name evidence (Brink 2007: 109–11), Saxo Grammaticus&#xD;&#xA;(1979: 174), and even Snorri Sturluson (1941–51: I, 24–25) all suggest&#xD;&#xA;that Freyr’s cult was geographically connected to the Uppland area,&#xD;&#xA;and the Ynglingar kings (Vikstrand 2001: 55–71; and Sundqvist 2002).&#xD;&#xA;There are also obvious connections to the Ingvaeones tribe (Tacitus 1948:&#xD;&#xA;102), something which once again encourages consideration of whether&#xD;&#xA;the Old Norse gods might not have originally been earlier more tribal- and/or geographical- rather than class-orientated, and whether they, like&#xD;&#xA;the matronæ and dísir (see Gunnell 2005a) might not have been seen&#xD;&#xA;as independent figures at the head of cults which were also connected&#xD;&#xA;to ancestor spirits, as Philip Shaw suggests (Shaw 2011: 47, 71–72, and&#xD;&#xA;99–100).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarly, I would like to add that also the Saxons were known to venerate a national patron god by the name [Saxnot][4], along with the universally known Germanic gods Wodan and Thor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## **Conclusion**&#xD;&#xA;To conlude, even though the scarcity of direct evidence prevents us from making strong statements on Norse religious practices, modern studies point to the possibility of Norse religion being much more regional, tribe- (or clan-) based and henotheistic than how it is presented in works like Snorri's Edda and in part of the Eddic poetic corpus. For this reason it is reasonable to expect that specific deities would play the role of protectors or patrons of specific regions, tribes or, at a smaller scale, even single clans and families.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.academia.edu/15349092/How_uniform_was_the_Old_Norse_religion&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.academia.edu/20384683/Pantheon_What_Pantheon&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yngvi&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seaxn%C4%93at" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25373" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7971" RevisionGUID="2561506d-c537-406a-a206-220d51b7b155" CreationDate="2021-04-06T13:35:29.960" UserId="2682" Comment="adjusted wording" Text="As far as I have been able to find, no myth specifies anything tantamount to these siblings being sextuplets. There is, however, one ancient story which claims that four of them were twins, that is to say that there were two separate sets of twins, and that Zeus was one of the older set thereof.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**A Different Sort of Multiple Birth**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The 4th-century-BC mythographer Euhemerus wrote extensively under the notion that the gods, originally, were merely human rulers, conquerors and heroes whose great deeds in life caused them to be revered to such a degree that, after their deaths, they were venerated as immortal beings. This technique of rationalising the myths has, from him, come to be known as *euhemerism*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Euhemerus wrote a theogony which does not survive but, as summarised by Wikipedia, &quot;Ennius translated Euhemerus into Latin about a hundred years later, and a passage from his version was in turn preserved by the early Christian writer Lactantius.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to this rendition, which Lactantius narrates in his *Divine Institutes* 1.14, Hestia had two sons: Kronos [Cronus] and Titan; and two daughters: Demeter and Rhea. Titan, who was older than Kronos, should have become king, but then, because Kronos was more handsome, all the three women in the family supported his bid to the throne.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The two brothers came to a compromise. Kronos would become king after all but any male child that he had would be done away with so that eventually the children of Titan would inherit the throne after their uncle. Kronos was married to Rhea, and their firstborn son was killed, presumably as soon as he was born. He remains unnamed, but after that Rhea gave birth to twins: Zeus and Hera. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Next up, Poseidon was born alone, followed by more twins, called Hades and Glauke (or, per the Roman names they are supplied with by Lactantius, Pluto and Glauca). All the boys were hidden from Kronos, while Glauke, who seems to be otherwise unknown, &quot;then died young.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The More Common Tradition**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the more mainstream version of the mythology, however, it appears to be almost certain that Zeus, at the very least, was *not* the product of a multiple birth. The accounts given by certain different writers regarding this can be read as being ambiguous enough to imply that Zeus, the youngest of Rhea's offspring, was born separately from his five older siblings, and that these other five were quintuplets. There is, however, no narration that makes any such explicit claim about a multiple birth prior to Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most clear-cut statement on the Question would be from the Roman poet Ovid's *Fasti* 4.199-203, which says that Kronos, out of fear regarding the prophecy about his own kids overthrowing him, &quot;devours his offspring as each was born, and entombs them in his bowels.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Resulting from this, it came to be that&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *saepe* [&quot;often/ frequently&quot;] Rhea complained of *totiens fecunda* [&quot;much pregnancy&quot; or &quot;frequent fruitfulness&quot;] but no motherhood, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; she was aggrieved by her own fertility.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The very next words go on to say that then “Jove [*i.e. Zeus*] was born”, whereupon Kronos was tricked into swallowing the stone decoy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A Greek author, Diodorus Siculus, records in his *Library of History* 5.70.2 that&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kronos *pleonákis* [&quot;time and again&quot; or &quot;repeatedly&quot;] did away with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the children whom he begot...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going by those two accounts, particularly in the former, it would mean that Rhea conceived and gave birth on at least three different occasions, with Zeus in particular having his own birth-date exclusively apart from any of the rest of his siblings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Strabo's *Geography* 10.3.11, Kronos was *eithismenon*, &quot;accustomed,&quot; to swallowing his children, and that Rhea, apparently in consequence of this, contrived to hide Zeus's birth (and perhaps the whole pregnancy itself, &quot;her travail&quot;) from the child's father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus' *Library* 1.1.6 narrates the incident using similar terms to those of Strabo in that Rhea seems to only become “big” or “heavy” (i.e. pregnant) with Zeus after the first five children (all listed by name in the previous line) have been  swallowed by Kronos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going all the way back to Hesiod's *Theogony* (Lines 464-492 thereof), a good amount of time appears to have passed between Kronos swallowing his children and Rhea being ready to give birth to her lastborn child Zeus. In between the descriptions of the first children being devoured and Rhea's preparations for Zeus, the Titaness grieves, then plots with her parents about how to rescue her last child, and is sent by them to Crete, where she delivers Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, there is an Arkadian [Arcadian] version of the myth reported to us by Pausanias in his *Description of Greece* 8.36.2, which claims that Zeus was born on Mt Lykaios [Lycaeus] in Arkadia [Arcadia]. Before this, however, Rhea, when she &quot;was pregnant with Zeus,&quot; had fled to another Arkadian mountain, named Thaumasios (the &quot;Mountain of Wonders&quot;), where she enlisted a squad of Gigantes (Giants) to be her bodyguard &quot;in case Kronos should attack her,&quot; and these were led by a certain Hoplodamos (the &quot;Armed Man&quot;). It was therefore also on Mt Lykaios that Kronos was deceived and swallowed the stone substitute for the baby.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The amount of activity, scheming and travelling in which Rhea engages in the *Theogony* and in this passage of Pausanias, in between the births of her first five children and that of Zeus, strongly suggest that this was not envisioned as taking place all on the same day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Somewhat closer to Euhemerus' version, the Roman writer Hyginus (in 139 of his *Fabulae*), makes mention of an unusual account in which Hera is apparently all grown up by the time Zeus is born and it is she who rescues Zeus by taking him to Crete Island to be there hidden away from Kronos. Meanwhile Hades and Poseidon have also already been born, and their father has cast them, respectively, into the Underworld and into the depths of the sea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If, from this, one were to infer that Hera, Hades and Poseidon, at least, were fully grown before Zeus was born, this might settle the issue in favour of the conclusion that they could therefore not have been sextuplets (or even quadruplets if we counted these three together with Zeus).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is, however, the fact that the childhoods of the gods can be unusually brief, or that they are capable of incredible feats within mere hours their birth, as attested particularly in the tale told of how Artemis was born and very shortly thereafter became one of the midwives aiding in the delivery of her own twin brother Apollo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, with the exception of Euhemerus (via Ennius and Lactantius, as above), there is no ancient source which explicitly denies that Zeus and his older siblings were sextuplets, but the most detailed narrations of their story appear to me to be intending several separate births." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25375" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7972" RevisionGUID="489d2058-a18e-4b23-b9b2-6c4ed71b934b" CreationDate="2021-04-07T11:54:46.170" UserId="7622" Text="They are described as quite different in the myths. For example, the Titans had much power, whilst the Gigantes drew power from their mother, Gaea. So are they the same or different beings?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25376" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7972" RevisionGUID="489d2058-a18e-4b23-b9b2-6c4ed71b934b" CreationDate="2021-04-07T11:54:46.170" UserId="7622" Text="Are Gigantes and Gods the same?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25377" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7972" RevisionGUID="489d2058-a18e-4b23-b9b2-6c4ed71b934b" CreationDate="2021-04-07T11:54:46.170" UserId="7622" Text="|greek|titans|giants|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25379" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7974" RevisionGUID="e32be25e-4234-45f7-ae93-d7cdd2279884" CreationDate="2021-04-08T22:14:50.030" UserId="7535" Text="As we all know IVC is the first civilisation in India between 3300 to 1300 BCE. But Mahabharata and Ramayana should dated before this period based on Yuga cycle. Then we haven’t considered these are early civilisation?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25380" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7974" RevisionGUID="e32be25e-4234-45f7-ae93-d7cdd2279884" CreationDate="2021-04-08T22:14:50.030" UserId="7535" Text="Why Mahabharata or Ramayana did not considered as earlier civilisation than IVC?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25381" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7974" RevisionGUID="e32be25e-4234-45f7-ae93-d7cdd2279884" CreationDate="2021-04-08T22:14:50.030" UserId="7535" Text="|myth-identification|comparative|mythohistory|history|hindu|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25383" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7976" RevisionGUID="fa537e48-5f74-401e-9837-d01bfd72e59b" CreationDate="2021-04-09T11:47:29.513" UserId="6394" Text="I recently saw the following quote in the [Wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Themis) on Themis:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Themis presided over the proper relation between man and woman[citation needed], the basis of the rightly ordered family (the family was seen as the pillar of the deme.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The &quot;citation needed&quot; was added by me. I've looked through the translated sources at [theoi.com](https://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanisThemis.html), and I cannot see anything that backs this up. I can't see anything that suggests Themis had strong opinions on gender roles or on what a family should look like, or that she enforced any sort of law on people regarding those things.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there an untranslated source which backs up this claim? Perhaps something I've missed?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25384" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7976" RevisionGUID="fa537e48-5f74-401e-9837-d01bfd72e59b" CreationDate="2021-04-09T11:47:29.513" UserId="6394" Text="Did Themis preside over &quot;the proper relation between man and woman&quot; and the concept of the family?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25385" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7976" RevisionGUID="fa537e48-5f74-401e-9837-d01bfd72e59b" CreationDate="2021-04-09T11:47:29.513" UserId="6394" Text="|greek|titans|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25386" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7977" RevisionGUID="6e6f6d05-2530-401d-b841-2b41c5ea0023" CreationDate="2021-04-09T11:51:53.970" UserId="7622" Text="Hecate isn't *heavily* associated with the moon. So we can rule her out. Nor is Phoebe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That leaves Artemis and Selene. According to early Greek myths, Selene used to be a Titan goddess of the moon and Artemis used to be a goddess of hunting and animals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As time progressed, they merged into one identity. Selene was written off and Artemis became the goddess of the moon, hunting, and animals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Same thing happened with Helius and Apollo. That said, it is up to you how you interpret Greek sources, as there is officially no 'canon source'. I like to think of Selene and Artemis as two different goddesses and same goes with Helius and Apollo." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25387" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7978" RevisionGUID="b4cac2fb-599e-4458-9315-393c521c4ff4" CreationDate="2021-04-10T01:01:56.230" UserId="6920" Text="The short answer is the Greco-Roman paganism of the era never thought about systemizing the gods as such.  Conflicts such as these goddesses got two main results:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Ignore it.  Worship the gods according to the practices of your forefathers, respect that your neighbors (who immigrated to your city, or you to theirs) worshiped the gods according to theirs, and do not even think about the logical inconsistencies in your beliefs.  Or, if you pick up a rite and a god in a foreign land, or import one, don't think about the inconsistencies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2.  Identify your god with the most similar god(s) of the foreigners.  Hence, we have Romans writing that Mercury/Hermes was the same god as Thoth of the Egyptians -- or Odin of the Germans.  Sometimes with more than one identification:  Osiris with both Dionysus and Pluto.  Or Horus with both Helios and Apollo -- Apollo not having been regarded as a solar god in classical times, only in Hellenistic.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, rites could rise and fall in fashion, so one goddess might be ascendant at one time only to give way to another.  But the typical pagan response to four (or more) moon goddesses would be to ignore the confusion, or identify them as one goddess of many names.  (We have inscriptions where a god is saluted with the epithet &quot;polyonymous&quot; -- many-named.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25395" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7981" RevisionGUID="e3061ae1-70ac-4a3b-82d3-5ddaacc3b8b3" CreationDate="2021-04-12T14:33:50.797" UserId="7971" Text="The apples of the Hesperides are made of gold (Hesiod *Theogony* 335). They symbolize immortality because gold was perceived as incorruptible in antiquity, e.g., Hermes sandals are made of &quot;immortal gold (Gr. ambrosia chryseia)&quot; (Homer Odyssey 24.341, translation A.T. Murray, revised by W. F. Wyatt, LCL 171, 1999). Similarly, Pindar's Fragment 222 reads: &quot;He calls the fleece immortal (Gr. aphthiton) because it was of gold, for gold is incorruptible (Gr. aphthartos)&quot; (Pindar Nem. Odes, Isthm. Odes, Fragments, Ed. and Trans. by W. H. Race, Harvard Univ. Press, LCL 485, 1997, revised 2012, pp. 426-7). &#xD;&#xA;General Remark: when quoting an ancient source full coordinated should be supplied, e.g., Euripides Hyppolytus 742-752 for Euripides` passage quoted above (by yannis). &#xD;&#xA;The flows of ambrosia mentioned in this passage symbolize again immortality because Greek ambrosia means 'immortal'.&#xD;&#xA;  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25396" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7982" RevisionGUID="1a359452-1222-4d65-8bcb-43fa2a5e8b59" CreationDate="2021-04-13T16:26:32.497" UserId="7977" Text="There's a race of dog-headed people known as Cynocephaly (or Kynokephali) which literally means dog-head.  Akephaloi is also used to describe the Blemmey who has no head.  It would probably make sense to call horse-headed people Hippocephali or Ippokephaloi or something like that.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Reverse-Centaur&quot; would be very incorrect.  &quot;Centaur&quot; or &quot;Kentavros&quot; is not a native Greek word, it's possibly imported from the Hindu Kinnara, (or some Persian or Assyrian iteration of the concept) which is either horse-head-like or centaur-like depending on when and where the term is used.  In modern Southeast Asia, Kinnara is centaurine, but a bird body instead of a horse body, and this version seems to have eclipsed the earlier horse version.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I assume Ipotane as a race and Hippotes as &quot;knight&quot; sound similar like if you were comparing the English terms &quot;horseman&quot; and &quot;horse man&quot;.  So even though it's confusing, it's probably not incorrect.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If it helps to understand the headspace of the ancient proto-Greeks and Mycenaeans, they did not ride horses themselves, their horses pulled wagons and chariots.  Their first exposure to horse riding would have been to someone like the Scythian raiders, and possibly misunderstood stories of Scythians from their neighboring empires, confusing &quot;horsemen&quot; as &quot;horse men&quot; and used the foreign word &quot;centaur&quot; to describe them.  The myths of wild and violent centaurs might reflect these horse-riding raiders.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25402" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7984" RevisionGUID="85c6adcf-2a44-4789-9b3e-2b0fae05d3a9" CreationDate="2021-04-15T16:04:52.673" UserId="6419" Text="The Giants and Gods are different! In the Greek creation myths, Gaea and Ouranos had multiple 'groups' of children. The first were creatures that had &quot;shattering, overwhelming strength&quot; and &quot;a hundred hands and fifty heads&quot;. Then came the Cyclopes, and after them the Titans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cronus overthrew his father Ouranos. When he overthrew his father, Ouranos' spilled blood created the Giants (and the furies as well!). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Gods are the product of Cronus and his wife Rhea. Cronus was told that a child of his would overthrow him, so he ate his children. Eventually, Rhea sought help with Gaea and they tricked Cronus with a rock wrapped in blankets. Meanwhile, Zeus was raised somewhere else and later overthrew his father Cronus and freed his five siblings (Hera, Demeter, Poseidon, Hades, and Hestia (not in that order)). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Titans, Giants, and Gods all had powers and were respected in different ways, but the Titans and Giants were a product of Ouranos, while the Gods were the Product of the Titan Cronus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So they are different beings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giants_(Greek_mythology)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus#:~:text=Cronus%20learned%20from%20Gaia%20and,born%20to%20prevent%20the%20prophecy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Mythology* by Edith Hamilton&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25404" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7986" RevisionGUID="03acf84b-4380-4819-92a7-73d80043051e" CreationDate="2021-04-16T00:16:10.210" UserId="7986" Text="The golden apple = immortality is a Norse creation the Greek apples were just valuable and  also a good way to prove yourself and I think I know where someone here got the idea that herakles had to get atlas to pick them Disney's Hercules series  there is an episode like that&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25407" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7989" RevisionGUID="28e97506-f87b-4a0d-9161-b756204365c5" CreationDate="2021-04-16T00:29:25.610" UserId="7986" Text="Andromeda agreed to be a sacrifice to save her mother and kingdom when the queen angered the gods fortunately perseus saved her &#xD;&#xA;Another story about self sacrifice was theseus taking a young boys place in the labyrinth " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25411" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7992" RevisionGUID="105d76c7-3900-4889-a8f8-142e99c4b6b3" CreationDate="2021-04-16T18:19:52.607" UserId="7985" Text="The gods were able to sometimes pass as human, so I would argue human sized.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://classroom.synonym.com/interaction-humans-gods-greek-mythology-13678.html has a couple examples. Specifically:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Demeter disguising herself as an old woman&#xD;&#xA; 2. Zeus and Hermes disguising themselves as humans" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25412" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7989" RevisionGUID="641f652b-5aa2-4fb0-98f5-a7ed7b4f5c85" CreationDate="2021-04-17T00:22:44.987" UserId="7845" Comment="fixed grammar and spelling" Text="Andromeda agreed to be a sacrifice to save her mother and kingdom, when the queen angered the gods. Fortunately, Perseus saved her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another story about self sacrifice was Theseus taking a young boy's place in the labyrinth." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25413" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="7989" RevisionGUID="641f652b-5aa2-4fb0-98f5-a7ed7b4f5c85" CreationDate="2021-04-17T00:22:44.987" Comment="Proposed by 7845 approved by 5726, 2682 edit id of 1866" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25416" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="7735" RevisionGUID="3341efa6-a940-4bd5-a130-6fa3b2254017" CreationDate="2021-04-18T11:57:08.533" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="25418" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7994" RevisionGUID="e2c6ff1f-cc2f-47aa-9a7c-ded221d4738e" CreationDate="2021-04-19T14:31:41.063" UserId="7991" Text="I want to learn more about mongolian mythology but am having trouble finding texts in english (I only speak english)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25419" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7994" RevisionGUID="e2c6ff1f-cc2f-47aa-9a7c-ded221d4738e" CreationDate="2021-04-19T14:31:41.063" UserId="7991" Text="Are there any good online resources for mongolian myths in english?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25420" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7994" RevisionGUID="e2c6ff1f-cc2f-47aa-9a7c-ded221d4738e" CreationDate="2021-04-19T14:31:41.063" UserId="7991" Text="|mongolian-shamanism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25421" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7994" RevisionGUID="20552852-f87d-4d89-9e64-2ddaf616e917" CreationDate="2021-04-19T17:34:26.523" UserId="5726" Comment="tags and Capitals" Text="I want to learn more about Mongolian mythology but am having trouble finding texts in English (I only speak English)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25422" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="7994" RevisionGUID="20552852-f87d-4d89-9e64-2ddaf616e917" CreationDate="2021-04-19T17:34:26.523" UserId="5726" Comment="tags and Capitals" Text="Are there any good online resources for Mongolian myths in English?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25423" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="7994" RevisionGUID="20552852-f87d-4d89-9e64-2ddaf616e917" CreationDate="2021-04-19T17:34:26.523" UserId="5726" Comment="tags and Capitals" Text="|source-request|mongolian-shamanism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25424" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7995" RevisionGUID="145b7927-b62c-4f10-9052-c01bb3b2a632" CreationDate="2021-04-19T18:12:27.917" UserId="5726" Text="The only English source I have lying around here is; &quot;Mongol creation stories: man, Mongol tribes, the natural world, and Mongol deities, by Nassen-Bayer and Kevin Stuart. It's not a big book (only 12 pages or so) and I have [**found an online source**][1] where you can read it for free, I will also include the text in my answer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;THE ORIGIN OF MAN, THE MONGOLS, AND MONGOL TRIBES&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In one tale the creation of the world is attributed to a lama named &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             Udan: &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             Long ago there lived a lama named Udan who created everything &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             in the world. When he was five hundred years old, heaven, earth, &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             and everything else had yet to appear. When he reached the age &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             of one thousand Udan divided heaven and earth into separate &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             entities, &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             creating a nine-story heaven, a nine-story earth, and nine rivers. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             Finally the lama made a man and a woman out of clay. They &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             married and had children, and the entire human race descends &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             from them. (BAJAR 1988, 27) &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             The foreign influence of Lamaism is at work here. The word lama, for &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             example, was probably added to the tale after the spread of Buddhism &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             to Mongol regions. It should be noted, however, that many Buddhists &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             and Lamaists consider the Buddha to have been the creator of the &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             world, so that this account is somewhat at odds with this Buddhist &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             belief. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Why Man Has No Hair**&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  Another creation story, &quot;Why Man Has No Hair,&quot; explains why man is &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             not hirsute and also hints at why he became mortal. The creator god &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             in this story is Burqan Tenger. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             Long long ago God descended to earth and made a man and a &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             woman out of clay. Before returning to heaven to get some holy &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             water with the power to animate anything, he ordered his dog and &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             cat to protect the clay people from the devil. After God ascended &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             to heaven, the devil came to harm the people. The dog and the &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             cat protected them, though, thwarting the devil's plan. Finally, &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             the devil deceived them by giving a piece of meat to the dog and &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             a bowl of milk to the cat. While the dog ate the flesh and the cat &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             lapped the milk, the devil urinated on the people and fled. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             When God returned with the holy water and discovered what &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             had happened, he was enraged. Scolding the dog and cat for &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             neglecting their duty, he forced the cat to lick the hair off the &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             bodies &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             of the people whom the devil had defiled (God created humans &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             with hair all over their bodies). The cat licked off the hair &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             everywhere &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             except their heads, armpits, and crotches, since the former &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             had not been dirtied and the latter two were hard for the cat to &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             reach. God then put the hair that had been licked away by the &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             cat onto the body of the dog, so that humans are now naked and &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             dogs have hair. The Mongol saying that the tongue of the cat &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             and the hair of the dog are dirty has its origin here. Man and &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             woman, who were animated by drinking the holy water, should &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             have been immortal but became mortal instead because of their &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             defilement by the devil. (GADAMBA and CERENSODNOM 1984, 742) &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             In this account, everything made by Burqan Tenger has both positive &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             and negative aspects. There is duality in all that is created: &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             beauty is tempered by ugliness, joy with suffering. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             The following account offers an explanation for why the Chinese &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             population is so much larger than the Mongolian: &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             God made many people from clay and placed some in the north and &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             some in the south. After many years God, thinking that man &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             must have multiplied, came down to take a look. When he found &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             that the population had not increased, he recalled that he had made &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             males but no females. He therefore put many hens in the south &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             and seven ewes in the north. The men and hens of the south are &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             the ancestors of the Chinese. Seven men in the north received the &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             seven ewes. One of the men, out of greed, killed his sheep to eat &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             at once. But after seven days the remaining ewes turned into &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             beautiful girls and married the men. These are the ancestors of &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             the Mongols. The Mongols' population growth is very slow because &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             they are descended from ewes, and the Chinese multiply &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             rapidly because they are descended from hens. (MANDAQU 1981, &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             105) &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             This tale probably springs from nomadic culture, since the nomadic &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             Mongols commonly keep sheep but not chickens, which are raised by &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             farmers and are used in the story to symbolize the Han Chinese. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;            &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The origin of the Mongolian tribes**&#xD;&#xA;&gt;There are at least two popular accounts concerning the origin of the &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             Mongolian tribes, one involving the Dorbed tribe and the other the &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             Buryat tribe. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             Long long ago the Dorbed tribe lived near Nidu Mountain. The &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             mountain towered so tall that its snow-covered top was perpetually &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             lost in clouds. A spring of water gushed forth and flowed into a &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             lake near the mountaintop. The lake was surrounded by forests. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             One day a young hunter went up the mountain and reached &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             the lake. There, to his great astonishment, he heard the sound of &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             laughing voices. Curious, the young hunter approached and &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             found four goddesses playing and dancing. He watched them, &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             spellbound, as they frolicked in the lake one moment and rested &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             in the sky the next. Returning to his senses, the hunter hurriedly &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             descended the mountain to his home. Taking his catch-pole, he &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             returned to the lake and hid behind a bush. As the unsuspecting &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             goddesses played he tossed his pole and caught one. The other &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             goddesses flew up into the sky. The young hunter voiced his love &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             to the goddess he had captured, and with great pleasure she accepted &#xD;&#xA;&gt;              it. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             They led a happy life, but because goddesses cannot live long &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             on earth she eventually returned to heaven. Once there, however, &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             she realized that she was pregnant, for her body grew heavier and &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             heavier. Flying down to the side of the lake, she gave birth to &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             a boy. She made a cradle and hung it from a tree branch, then &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             placed the baby boy inside. She then put some of her own milk &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             into a pot and hung the pot from a branch above the cradle, all the &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             while missing the young hunter. The goddess found a small yellow &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             bird that lived in Tang[gamma]ud and had it perch in the tree to &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             sing &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             day and night and look after the baby. Having prepared everything, &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             the goddess returned to heaven. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             At that time the Dorbed tribe, being without a good leader, &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             asked a fortune-teller how to find one. The fortune-teller told &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             them that if they looked in the bushes by the lake on Nidu Mountain &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             they would surely discover what they sought. Delighted, the &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             Dorbed expressed their appreciation to the fortune-teller and, on &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             a good day, went up the mountain. There, drawn by the yellow &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             bird's song, they found the baby. The Dorbed took the infant &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             home, believing him to be from heaven and the one destined to &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             be their future leader. The small yellow bird flew around the &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             cradle, unwilling to leave, but at last was forced to fly away into &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             the blue sky. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             When the boy grew up, he achieved great deeds and became &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             an outstanding hero. He was the forefather of the present Dorbed &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             tribe. (OBOR MONG[gamma]OL-YIN KELE UTQA JOQIJAL SUDULQU [gamma]AJAR 1963, 10) &#xD;&#xA;            &#xD;&#xA;            &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Many years ago, Bar[gamma]utai, hunting around Lake Baikal, found &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             seven beautiful girls playing in the lake. Bar[gamma]utai silently &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             approached &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             the lake and stole the clothing one of the girls had removed &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             and placed there. After swimming in the lake, the girls &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             went to get their clothes as Bar[gamma]utai watched stealthily from &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             behind &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             a tree. All of the girls but the youngest, whose clothing had &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             been stolen by Bar[gamma]utai, put on their clothes, became swans, &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             and &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             soared up into the sky. Bar[gamma]utai then grasped the sobbing &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             girl. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             They married and had eleven children, but the woman was unable &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             to reclaim her clothes from the hunter no matter how often she &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             begged him. One day, the woman found her clothing and put &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             it on. She then became a swan and flew away through the yurt &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             skylight. The children were the Buryat's ancestors. (GADAMBA &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             and CERENSODNOM 1984, 1023) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The above two stories trace the origins of these two tribes to &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             goddesses and hunters, both of which were venerated in ancient &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             times. These two accounts likely originated in ancient times because &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             of the role played by the swan and the yellow bird. Among ancient &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             Mongol tribes the swan was a totem, and the Buryat and Bar[gamma]a &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             tribes sacrificed to it (ZHAO 1988, 32). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;ON NATURAL PHENOMENA&#xD;&#xA;--------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Some folklore accounts are concerned with the sun, moon, stars, &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             wind, and earth. This suggests the interest the ancient Mongols had &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             in the origins, transformation, and development of natural &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             phenomena. Let us first examine accounts dealing with the earth. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             In ancient times, the earth was submerged in water and formed a &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             boundless ocean. When the lord of the universe, Buddha Sakyamuni, &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             was flying over the ocean to find a way to create the earth, &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             he saw a frog swimming from north to south. Observing the &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             golden-bodied frog, Buddha used his fingers to divine that the &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             earth would be created on the back of the golden frog. Buddha &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             unslung his bow and arrows and shot the golden frog's east side, &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             turning the frog in a northerly direction. Fire gushed from its &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             mouth and water spouted from its rump. Buddha threw golden &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             sand on the frog, which became the earth where we now live. The &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             part of the arrow protruding from the frog's east side became a &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             forest, while the arrowhead that had passed through the frog to the &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             west became a metal area. Because of the fire which gushed from &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             the frog's mouth, the north became an area of fire. Because of the &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             water spouting from the frog's rump, the south became a watery &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             area. So our earth consists of the above five elements (fire, wood, &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             water, metal, sand) and exists on the body of the frog. When the &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             frog moves its legs or shakes its head, earthquakes result. (SECEN &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             1987, 119) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**how the world came to have form**&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In Mongol folklore there are also descriptions of how the world came &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             to have form. A few examples: the edges of sky and earth came &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             together in the way two pots are set against one another; there are &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             ninety-nine golden columns holding apart the sky and earth; the &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             world has three stories, the upper one being heaven where gods and &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             goddesses live, the middle one being earth where man dwells, and the &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             lower one being the place where man goes after death; heaven (sky) &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             is the father and earth is the mother of man, animals, etc. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             Some scholars have argued that the ancient Mongols created simple &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             stories because of a lack of a broad explanatory base of knowledge, &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             while other scholars argue that they were longer and more &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             complicated when initially created and subsequently lost various &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             elements under the influence of Buddhism and other philosophies &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             (SECEN 1987, 116).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Other stories lost various parts in the process &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             of being retold from generation to generation over a long historical &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             period. The following are two brief examples dealing with the origin &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             of the earth. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             In the beginning the world was covered with roiling gas. The &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             temperature increased and dampness was generated from the &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             warm gas, causing it to rain heavily. The world became a vast &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             ocean, and at last dust and sand rose to cover the ocean surface and  become &gt;earth.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;             &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             &#xD;&#xA;&gt;The primordial world was dark gas with no separation between &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             earth and sky. After many years, brightness and darkness separated, &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             with brightness becoming the sky and darkness becoming &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             the earth. After many more years, fourty-four tenger (gods or &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             buddhas) appeared in the east and fifty-five tenger appeared in &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             the west, south, and north, and the Great Bear was taken as the &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             standard. Thus there were ninety-nine tenger in heaven. At that &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             time the earth was floating and had not stabilized, and there were &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             neither animals nor vegetation. The tenger then created man and &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             had them descend to earth to plant vegetation. At last the earth &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             stabilized. (SECEN 1987, 120) &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             From the foregoing we infer that ancient Mongolian thought saw the &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             world as generated from dark gas. There were also explanations &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             concerning the origin of wind, stars, the sun, and the moon. The &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             following stories explain how the wind, Ursa Major, and the sun took &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             form. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             There is an old woman in heaven who has a skin sack containing &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             the wind. If she is angry, she opens her sack and the wind blows &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             on earth. If she is furious, she opens the sack wider and wider &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             and the wind becomes stronger. When she is in good spirits, she &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             closes the sack and the wind stops. Thus, people shouldn't willfully &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             offend the old woman. (ANONYMOUS 1984, 16) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Long ago two brothers met a man as they set out hunting one &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             morning. &quot;What are you doing?&quot; they asked him. The man &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             answered, &quot;I am waiting for a bird I just now shot to fall from &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             the sky.&quot; When noon came, the bird dropped from the sky, impaled &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             by an arrow. The three then became (sworn) brothers. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             They went on and met four persons in succession, the first a man &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             who could hear any sound on earth and in heaven, the second a &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             strong man who could pile mountains on top of each other, the &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             third a runner who could catch antelopes, and the fourth a magician &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             who could drink up the sea. These seven men became (sworn) &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             brothers and defeated Magpie Khan by employing their skills. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             In the end they became Ursa Major. (GADAMBA and CERENSODNOM &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             1984, 735)&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Long ago an old man's cow gave birth to a calf, the front part of &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             which resembled a man and the rear part of which resembled a &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             cow. Its name was Ama-ca[gamma]an. The calf grew up and performed &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             many good deeds on man's behalf and so went to heaven and met &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             Ca[gamma]an (White) Khan. The khan told the calf, &quot;You did many &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             good deeds for man but they dealt with you in an ill manner. I &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             struggle with the khan of the devils every day and am going to &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             defeat him with the (fighting) style of bulls, so please aid me.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             In order to help the khan, Ama-ca[gamma]an disguised himself as a &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             doctor, &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             went to the palace of Devil Khan, and slew him. But the wife &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             of Devil Khan, a mangrus (monster), realized what had happened &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             and threw an iron scraper at Ama-ca[gamma]an's back as he was &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             ascending &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             to heaven. Am-ca[gamma]an was cut into seven pieces, and these &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             pieces &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             later became Ursa Major. (CERENSODNOM 1987, 40) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Erkei-Mergen**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Long long ago, seven suns rose in the sky so that the rivers and &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             vegetation on earth dried up and men and animals had great &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             difficulty &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             surviving. At that time, there lived a famous archer named &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             Erkei-Mergen. People went to his home and said, &quot;Please shoot &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             the suns in the sky and let us live in happiness.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             Erkei-Mergen was a brave, young, and proud man. He &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             promised, &quot;I want to shoot the seven suns using only seven arrows. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             If I can't accomplish this I will cut off my thumbs, never &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             drink again, and live as an animal rather than as a man.&quot; The &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             archer then began to shoot the suns from east to west. He shot &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             down six, but while he was taking aim at the seventh a martin flew &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             in front of the sun and was shot in the tail. From then on, the &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             martin's tail has pointed in two different directions. The last sun &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             was frightened of the archer and fled behind West Mountain. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             Angry at the martin, the archer decided to catch it using his fast &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             horse, Qarcagai-Alag. The horse vowed, &quot;If I can not catch the &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             martin before dusk, you can cut off my four limbs and abandon &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             me on the open steppe. I will not live as a horse any longer.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             But when dusk came, the horse had still not caught up with the &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             martin. Erkei-Mergen, angry at his horse, cut off its front feet &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             and left it on the steppe. The horse then became a jerboa, &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             explaining &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             why the jerboa's forelegs are shorter than its hind legs. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             This also explains why the martin always flies around those who &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             ride horses with a chirping sound that translates as &quot;Can you &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             catch me?&quot; Erkei-Mergen cut off his thumbs as he had promised &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             and became a marmot, living in a dark hole. This explains why &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             the marmot has only four claws. Marmots exit their holes in the &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             morning and the evening because Erkei-Mergen still remembers &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             his vow and desires to shoot the sun. And man does not eat the &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             flesh of marmots because they evolved from Erkei-Mergen. From &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             then on day and night have appeared in turn, since the sun flies &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             behind West Mountain in fear [when the marmot exits its hole at &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             dusk]. (GADAMBA and CERENSODNOM 1984, 735) &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             God decided to punish the crafty monster, Raqu, but could not &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             find him because Raqu had gone into hiding. God ordered the &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             sun to find Raqu, but the sun could not do so. The moon found &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             the place where Raqu was hiding and told God. Raqu was thus &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             arrested and punished. From that time on, Raqu has been feuding &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             with the sun and moon and always chases them. Solar and &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             lunar eclipses occur just as the sun and moon are about to be &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             caught. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             And when this happens, people shout and play musical instruments &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             in order to frighten Raqu away. (SECEN 1987, 121) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;DEIFIED PERSONALITIES&#xD;&#xA;---------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Deified personalities are human in appearance but &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             divine in ability and power. The following three examples &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             demonstrate this. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             Long ago a herdsman tending a herd of horses for a prince lost the &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             animals. He couldn't find them no matter where he looked. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             Later, an old man named Jayaci, a horse breeder for the prince, &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             told the herdsman, &quot;Your lost horses ran to Altan-Bumbai Mountain &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             and Erdeni-Bumbai Mountain located twenty kilometers southwest &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             of here.&quot; The herdsman went there and found the horses just &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             as Jayaci had said. Even when Jayaci was on the verge of death &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             he still would not leave his horses. One day the prince asked him, &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             &quot;Why are you unwilling to leave?&quot; Jayaci replied, &quot;I hope that &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             after I die, you will bury me between Altan-Bumbai and Erdeni-Bumbai &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             mountains dressed in the clothing I wore when herding, &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             and put my catch-pole beside my head. I also wish to be carried &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             to my burial on my yellow horse.&quot; When the prince agreed to &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             this, Jayaci stopped breathing. He was buried in accordance with &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             his last request. After a few months had passed, some of the &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             prince's herds of horses were stolen and driven to Altan-Bumbai &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             and Erdeni-Bumbai at midnight. A pestilence then spread among &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             the horses and they began to die. The prince went to Jayaci's &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             grave, offered sacrifices to him, and said, &quot;You have gone away &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             and must be tired. The children in our home place are frightened &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             of you. I suggest that you not leave here again. I will draw &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             your image on a cattle skin and put it in my yurt to worship. This &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             way you can see the horses and other domestic animals every day &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             and you will feel very happy.&quot; Returning to his home, the prince &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             drew an image of Jayaci on a cattle skin and worshipped him. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             From the following day horses were never stolen or taken ill again. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             And Jayaci, who had been seen at night, never appeared again. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             After a few months, Jayaci's wife also died. Soon after, some &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             children became ill. People understood that this was because she &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             missed children, since she had loved children very much during &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             her lifetime. As soon as they drew her image on a clean white &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             piece of felt and worshipped it the children recovered. Later, &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             people worshipped Jayaci as the protecting deity of livestock and &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             his wife as the protecting deity of children. When people came &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             to use cloth, herdsmen moved the images of Jayaci and his wife &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             from cattle skin and felt onto white cloth. (OBOR MONG[gamma]OL-YIN &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             KELE UTQA JOQIJAL SUDULQU [gamma]AJAR 1963, 6) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Qobolta** &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Qobolta stole a heavenly cow while in paradise and killed it to eat &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             on &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             a snowy mountain. The Lord of Heaven noticed this and sent &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             an emissary to arrest Qobolta. Qobolta told the emissary, &quot;The &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             fact that I have stolen a heavenly cow is proof of the fact that I &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             have been in heaven. I killed the cow in order to make a god &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             image.&quot; The emissary replied, &quot;I will not punish you if you &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             really can make a god image,&quot; and returned to heaven. Qobolta &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             cut the skin of the cattle into strips as wide as a finger, and &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             wrapped &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             each cattle bone with one of these strips. Next he distributed the &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             images to everyone on earth, telling them, &quot;This is the deity Bumal. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;              If you sincerely believe in him, you will surely be healthy and &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             happy all year and your domestic animals will breed and multiply.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             Qobolta was the first to believe in the deity. From that time on, &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             Bumal became the embodiment of God for the Mongols. They &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             always drew his image on cattle horns and put it outside their &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             yurts to worship. (OBOR MONG[gamma]OL-YIN KELE UTQA JOQIJAL SUDULQU &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             [gamma]AJAR 1963, 6) &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             Many years ago, the brutal black Dragon King lived on the land &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             and not in the sea. His constant attacks made him a dangerous &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             enemy to man. At that time, there lived an old man who was only &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             one span high but had a beard two spans long. He had a sack &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             made from camel-neck skin, a spoon made of wild buck horn, &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             and a billy goat. One day the old man set off to subdue Dragon &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             King. On the way, the old man came to the sea. The sea asked, &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             &quot;Where are you going?&quot; &quot;I am going to vanquish the Dragon &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             King,&quot; replied the old man. &quot;How can you defeat him?&quot; the sea &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             inquired in an arrogant and contemptuous tone. The old man was &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             very angry, and drew the entire sea into his spoon with a single &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             dip, leaving the seabed dry. Putting the sea into his sack, he went &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             on until he met a fox. &quot;Where are you going?&quot; asked the fox. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             &quot;I am going to defeat Dragon King,&quot; answered the old man. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             &quot;How can you do that?&quot; the fox mockingly inquired. The old &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             man was furious at this question, scooped up the fox, and put him &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             in his sack. Next he met a wolf. &quot;Where are you going?&quot; asked &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             the wolf. &quot;I am going to defeat Dragon King,&quot; replied the old &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             man. &quot;How can you defeat Dragon King?&quot; the wolf asked in a &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             ridiculing tone. The old man was infuriated at the wolf, beat it &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             with his spoon, and threw it too into his sack. He then continued &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             his journey and arrived at the rear of Dragon King's palace. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             Climbing a hill behind the palace, he shouted, &quot;I want to vanquish &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             man's enemy, Dragon King.&quot; His voice was so loud that it shook &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             the hill and Dragon King's heart. The proud Dragon King replied, &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             &quot;If you offend me so openly, I will release my ten thousand &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             sheep to raise a dust that will settle upon and kill you.&quot; The ten &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             thousand sheep then ran forth, but the old man set free the wolf &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             from his sack. The sheep saw the wolf and fled, scattering in all &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             directions. Then the Dragon King said, &quot;I will send my two dogs &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             to devour you,&quot; and set free Qasar and Qusar, his two dogs. The &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             old man let the fox out of his sack. The fox fled from the dogs, and &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             the dogs chased it far away. Dragon King began to be afraid, and &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             ordered his ten thousand soldiers to attack the old man. But the old &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             man wasn't worried and waited for the troops to approach. When &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             they came near he opened his sack, and the sea poured out and &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             rushed in with powerful waves upon Dragon King, his soldiers, and &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             his palace. From then on Dragon King never lived on land but &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             only in the sea. (OBOR MONG[gamma]OL-YIN KELE UTQA JOQIJAL SUDULQU &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             [gamma]AJAR 1963, 3) &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             Mongols living in the eastern part of Inner Mongolia made sacrifices &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             to Jayaci and Bumal until the 1940s. Jayaci was venerated as the god &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             who guarded livestock and Bumal as the protector of children. In &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             general, it is thought that the two accounts related to Bumal and &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             Jayaci are uninfluenced by Buddhism and arose from ancient Mongol &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             society and culture. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             The brutal black Dragon King may be understood as the embodiment of &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             natural catastrophe. In the defeat of the King, the Mongols express &#xD;&#xA;&gt;             their desire to surmount the difficulties imposed by Nature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-EPT/stuart1.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25425" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1831" RevisionGUID="42e0c7b8-6806-477c-ab90-baa74f7794a6" CreationDate="2021-04-19T21:56:42.210" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="25426" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7996" RevisionGUID="834e6ac1-9629-4c94-bda4-7ee7c17c1c8f" CreationDate="2021-04-20T19:54:57.617" UserId="2892" Text="I'd propose:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Hector&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He could have fled Troy, but stayed to defend his home and family, even ultimately facing Achilles in a battle he knew he could not win.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Achilles drags Hector's body around Troy, the corpse is incorruptible, which can be taken as a precedent for [Jesus' incorruptible body][1]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  the daughter of Zeus, Aphrodite, kept dogs from him by day alike and by night, and with oil anointed she him, rose-sweet, ambrosial, to the end that Achilles might not tear him as he dragged him. And over him Phoebus Apollo drew a dark cloud from heaven to the plain, and covered all the place whereon the dead man lay, lest ere the time the might of the sun should shrivel his flesh round about on his sinews and limbs.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Source: Iliad, [23.161\]][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/15-53.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D23%3Acard%3D161" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25427" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6484" RevisionGUID="6f5b84b1-f154-4b14-80fd-256229f71442" CreationDate="2021-04-20T20:05:09.493" UserId="7095" Comment="deleted 2168 characters in body" Text="Judaism, according to one interpretation in the Talmud of the verse in [Judges 5:23][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;“Curse Meroz!” said the angel of the LORD. “Bitterly curse its inhabitants, Because they came not to the aid of the LORD, To the aid of the LORD among the warriors.”&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...As it is written: “Curse bitterly its inhabitants” (Judges 5:23), in reference to all those sitting together with Meroz...And Ulla said: Barak ostracized Meroz with the blowing of four hundred shofarot due to his failure to come. As for the identification of Meroz, some say that he was a great man and that he was ostracized because he did not join in the war effort. And others say that the reference is to a star and not a human being, and that it did not aid the Jewish people in their battle, as it is stated: “The stars fought from heaven; in their courses they fought against Sisera,” (Judges 5:20). This star, which did not help the Jewish people, was cursed.&quot; ([Tractate Mo'ed Katan, 16a][2])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.sefaria.org/Moed_Katan.16a.7?lang=bi&amp;p2=Judges.5.23&amp;lang2=bi&amp;w2=all&amp;lang3=en&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.sefaria.org/Moed_Katan.16a.7?lang=bi" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25428" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7997" RevisionGUID="a58faca1-3126-4b49-a42e-b4212bf0c483" CreationDate="2021-04-20T20:21:03.273" UserId="2892" Text="It's been a long time since I looked at the Perseus myth, and became confused debating with a child who asserted Perseus was the the son of Poseidon.  This led me to read the Percy Jackson series, which also initially confused me because I was sure Perseus is the son of Zeus.  But, then I started thinking about it, and wondered: Is it supportable to consider Perseus a son of Poseidon?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not explicitly per the ancient canon, but rather reimagined in a modern retelling.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - What aspects of the Perseus myth support modern retelling as a son of Poseidon?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What elements of the ancient canon could have led Rick Riordan to reimagine Perseus in this manner?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25429" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7997" RevisionGUID="a58faca1-3126-4b49-a42e-b4212bf0c483" CreationDate="2021-04-20T20:21:03.273" UserId="2892" Text="Perseus as son of Poseidon?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25430" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7997" RevisionGUID="a58faca1-3126-4b49-a42e-b4212bf0c483" CreationDate="2021-04-20T20:21:03.273" UserId="2892" Text="|interpretation|perseus|modern-influence|riordan|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25432" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7996" RevisionGUID="5c581c17-5cbf-401a-8ec2-1adbbcf141be" CreationDate="2021-04-20T20:39:40.820" UserId="2892" Comment="added 364 characters in body" Text="I'd propose:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Hector&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He could have fled Troy, but stayed to defend his home and family, even ultimately facing Achilles in a battle he knew he could not win.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Achilles drags Hector's body around Troy, the corpse is incorruptible, which can be taken as a precedent for [Jesus' incorruptible body][1]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  the daughter of Zeus, Aphrodite, kept dogs from him by day alike and by night, and with oil anointed she him, rose-sweet, ambrosial, to the end that Achilles might not tear him as he dragged him. And over him Phoebus Apollo drew a dark cloud from heaven to the plain, and covered all the place whereon the dead man lay, lest ere the time the might of the sun should shrivel his flesh round about on his sinews and limbs.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Source: Iliad, [23.161\]][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The structure of the Iliad supports the importance of Hector—it begins with the &quot;rage of Achilles&quot; and ends with &quot;the funeral of Hector, breaker of horses.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The pity that is evoked by that final line is on par with pity felt towards religious martyrs, and Hector is definitely regarded as the main martyr of Troy—most esteemed and impeccable in his conduct.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/15-53.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D23%3Acard%3D161" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25433" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7998" RevisionGUID="c75bfecf-9236-475c-929d-f9ab1c212bbf" CreationDate="2021-04-20T21:11:51.587" UserId="2892" Text="In Roger Zelazney's [Creatures of Light and Darkness][1], he imagines the [Egyptian Typhon][2], brother of Set, as a void that often takes the form of a stallion.  He calls this entity &quot;Skagganauk Abyss&quot;, which I always took to be a form of [Ginnungagap][3], the primordial void of Norse mythology.  This modern interpretation is resonant, so I'm wondering about its mythical roots.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - What is the possible meaning of &quot;Skagganauk&quot;?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was it purely invented, or does it come from somewhere?  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://ebooks.darknetproxy.com/index.php?page=13&amp;id=17528&amp;db=0&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhon#Set&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ginnungagap" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25434" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7998" RevisionGUID="c75bfecf-9236-475c-929d-f9ab1c212bbf" CreationDate="2021-04-20T21:11:51.587" UserId="2892" Text="Skagganauk abyss?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25435" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="7998" RevisionGUID="c75bfecf-9236-475c-929d-f9ab1c212bbf" CreationDate="2021-04-20T21:11:51.587" UserId="2892" Text="|norse|egyptian|modern-influence|typhon|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25437" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="7744" RevisionGUID="34a9962e-4ab4-448a-aaf1-e1b4e868c6a5" CreationDate="2021-04-21T12:08:00.720" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="25438" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="7999" RevisionGUID="b7959e9d-cf90-4f76-b036-cc5114e56acb" CreationDate="2021-04-23T02:59:47.440" UserId="2892" Text="The most well know books are the Percy Jackson quintet, which has sales of nearly 70 million copies in 35 countries as of 2021.  Riordan has also treated Norse and Egyptian mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25439" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="7999" RevisionGUID="b7959e9d-cf90-4f76-b036-cc5114e56acb" CreationDate="2021-04-23T02:59:47.440" UserId="2892" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25440" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8000" RevisionGUID="6ca33ecc-fee2-419f-b8b5-29ff513b03b5" CreationDate="2021-04-23T02:59:47.440" UserId="2892" Text="For question related to mythology as reimagined by popular young adult author, Rick Riordan." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25441" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="8000" RevisionGUID="6ca33ecc-fee2-419f-b8b5-29ff513b03b5" CreationDate="2021-04-23T02:59:47.440" UserId="2892" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25442" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8001" RevisionGUID="b2f81a62-7cc1-413b-9d1d-ea999a083c98" CreationDate="2021-04-23T11:58:09.207" UserId="8000" Text="[Xianxia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xianxia_(genre)) stories often contain the following elements:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1&gt; Cultivation of Qi:\&#xD;&#xA;   Qi is a humor-esque substance which is generally absorbed from the environment and stored in the [Dan Tian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dantian) which in these stories is a virtual space near the navel. One starts with no Qi, then accumulates enough to fill the Dan Tian with gaseous Qi which is progressively liquidified and then solidified as one improves in level. Past the point of solidification and a few further compressions the thing usually develops into an independent universe inside the owner where stars, planets, life etc. may be spontaneously created / born or inserted from outside.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2&gt; Elemental Travel:\&#xD;&#xA;   Travel through the soil, through water, as wind etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3&gt; Pill refining:\&#xD;&#xA;Various plant and animal parts are put in a cauldron, special hand gestures are made, Qi is infused into the cauldron and at the end, if successful, everything automatically congeals into a spherical pill without the need for molds etc. Pills have levels according to their &quot;Qi&quot; and &quot;Medicinal Purity&quot; and if these are sufficiently high, can even be &quot;alive&quot; or &quot;sentient&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Everything is handwaved away inside the story world as &quot;Daoism&quot; but did historical Daoist/Buddhist scriptures or even folklore contain such elements, especially the stomach-universe and the sentient pills?&#xD;&#xA;   " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25443" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="8001" RevisionGUID="b2f81a62-7cc1-413b-9d1d-ea999a083c98" CreationDate="2021-04-23T11:58:09.207" UserId="8000" Text="Are there any folklore references to the following elements found in Xianxia i.e. modern Chinese High Fantasy fiction?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25444" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="8001" RevisionGUID="b2f81a62-7cc1-413b-9d1d-ea999a083c98" CreationDate="2021-04-23T11:58:09.207" UserId="8000" Text="|folklore|mythohistory|chinese|reference-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25445" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8002" RevisionGUID="db305203-9888-476a-8d72-6f28828b6292" CreationDate="2021-04-23T15:07:06.850" UserDisplayName="user8002" Text="This is a question that is answered if you look through the series background. Percy Jackson is a character invented by Rick Riordan during a storytelling night with his ADHD dyslexia son who couldn't concentrate at school. Since his son loves the story of Perseus and the Greek hero had a great and happy ending, he decides to name his character Percy, short for Perseus. The reason why he picked Poseidon was that Hera's jealousy of Zeus's child might kill Percy in the first chapter or it could be from the original Perseus story where Poseidon used gentle waves to bring the chest that contained his mother and him to the shore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who knows?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25447" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7989" RevisionGUID="951233ca-627f-414d-8564-6fa8fe4a2a48" CreationDate="2021-04-24T00:48:31.120" UserId="7986" Comment="added 448 characters in body" Text="Andromeda agreed to be a sacrifice to save her mother and kingdom, when the queen angered the gods. Fortunately, Perseus saved her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another story about self sacrifice was Theseus taking a young boy's place in the labyrinth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I did some more research and persephone although immortal did agree to be hades' wife for a third of the year even though she loved picking flowers this is technically self sacrifice and she agreed because if she hadn't done as Zeus asked demeter would have flooded the underworld with mortals who starved and hades would have opened the gates of the underworld but persephone choosing to appease hades for a portion of the year prevented a war" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25449" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8004" RevisionGUID="822ccb6d-0717-45f7-9e5c-c7be00aa203d" CreationDate="2021-04-25T06:25:57.367" UserId="158" Text="Every account of the Titanomachy I’ve ever seen basically jumps from Zeus getting Kronos to regurgitate his siblings straight to the Olympians’ victory ten years later. A few will reference the Hundred-Handers throwing rocks, the Cyclops making weapons, and Prometheus defecting to Zeus’s side, but as for the actual war it’s always just “they fought for ten years.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any sources for what actually happened along the way? Any heroic tales of Poseidon facing off against Oceanus, for example, or what finally made Kronos surrender? Do we get any scenes to illustrate what a battle between Olympians and Titans might actually be like, whether it’s more “weapons and shields” or closer to “ripping apart mountain ranges”? Are there any stories about the Olympians in action, for example Zeus actually getting to use his shiny new Lightning Bolt? Were they fighting steadily for the whole ten years, or were there long sieges or periods of inaction?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Obviously we don’t have anything close to the blow-by-blow for the Trojan War from The Iliad, but I’m hoping there are at least a few hints or scenes from the overthrow of the Titans? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or is it literally just “they fought”?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25450" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="8004" RevisionGUID="822ccb6d-0717-45f7-9e5c-c7be00aa203d" CreationDate="2021-04-25T06:25:57.367" UserId="158" Text="Do we know of any battles or other specific events that happened during the Titanomachy?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25451" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="8004" RevisionGUID="822ccb6d-0717-45f7-9e5c-c7be00aa203d" CreationDate="2021-04-25T06:25:57.367" UserId="158" Text="|greek|zeus|titans|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25454" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8005" RevisionGUID="39ab2928-fc68-4d33-b867-68942faec1fb" CreationDate="2021-04-26T10:36:57.320" UserId="5511" Text="1) No - this is a gross &quot;gamification&quot; of Qi to something similar like mana in other RPGs. You cannot &quot;start with zero Qi&quot; in Daoism, believed to be a vital force forming part of any living entity. Without Qi, you would be dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2) Elemental travel is borrowed from  [五行][1] (wuxing), in particular [形意拳][2] Xinq Yi Quan. It is a very common &quot;magification&quot; you find in countless Chinese movies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3) This is based on an old Daoist legend similar to Western alchemy stating that an alchemist could synthesize the &quot;[Pill of Immortality][3]&quot;. The Daoist legend does not include pills being sentient.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuxing_(Chinese_philosophy)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xing_Yi_Quan&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pill_of_Immortality" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25455" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="8001" RevisionGUID="a7ab4cc7-7ac2-451e-bcd5-96791cfea1fa" CreationDate="2021-04-26T16:53:39.807" UserId="8000" Comment="Sought early examples in literature of these ideas as presented in Xianxia. " Text="[Xianxia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xianxia_(genre)) stories often contain the following elements:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1&gt; Cultivation of Qi:\&#xD;&#xA;   Qi is a humor-esque substance which is generally absorbed from the environment and stored in the [Dan Tian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dantian) which in these stories is a virtual space near the navel. One starts with no Qi, then accumulates enough to fill the Dan Tian with gaseous Qi which is progressively liquidified and then solidified as one improves in level. Past the point of solidification and a few further compressions the thing usually develops into an independent universe inside the owner where stars, planets, life etc. may be spontaneously created / born or inserted from outside.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2&gt; Elemental Travel:\&#xD;&#xA;   Travel through the soil, through water, as wind etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3&gt; Pill refining:\&#xD;&#xA;Various plant and animal parts are put in a cauldron, special hand gestures are made, Qi is infused into the cauldron and at the end, if successful, everything automatically congeals into a spherical pill without the need for molds etc. Pills have levels according to their &quot;Qi&quot; and &quot;Medicinal Purity&quot; and if these are sufficiently high, can even be &quot;alive&quot; or &quot;sentient&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Everything is handwaved away inside the story world as &quot;Daoism&quot; but did historical Daoist/Buddhist scriptures or even folklore contain such elements, especially the stomach-universe and the sentient pills?&#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;Edit: I am trying to trace the evolution of these ideas as presented in Xianxia. Names of and / or links to the earliest known works that contain any of these elements **in the sense described above** are also part of the &quot;references&quot; I'm looking for." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25457" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8007" RevisionGUID="8525a1f4-7193-4603-9af2-4ce614ed3264" CreationDate="2021-04-27T04:59:59.953" UserId="158" Text="Hera, Demeter, and Hestia are said to have fought alongside their brothers Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades in the war against the Titans. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To the modern imagination, it's easy to picture Demeter functioning like DC's Poison Ivy in a fight, commanding plants and vines against her enemies. Similarly, Hestia was a fire goddess, so her utility in combat isn't difficult to understand. Hera is a little more vague, being almost entirely domestic in her domain, though she prepares for battle alongside Athena in the *Iliad* before being stopped by Zeus, implying that she's decent with weapons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But these are all deductions. Are there any explicit accounts of those three goddesses engaging in direct combat of any kind against mortals or supernatural beings, anywhere in Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25458" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="8007" RevisionGUID="8525a1f4-7193-4603-9af2-4ce614ed3264" CreationDate="2021-04-27T04:59:59.953" UserId="158" Text="Are there any accounts of how Hera, Demeter, and/or Hestia conducted themselves in combat?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25459" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="8007" RevisionGUID="8525a1f4-7193-4603-9af2-4ce614ed3264" CreationDate="2021-04-27T04:59:59.953" UserId="158" Text="|greek|goddesses|hera|demeter|hestia|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25460" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8008" RevisionGUID="dac885d1-83d4-46fb-a2e3-1c9c29ff5904" CreationDate="2021-04-27T05:33:24.643" UserId="158" Text="Every culture I've ever heard of has primarily worshipped a being that deserved to rule the universe. Whether the sole figure in a monotheistic religion like the Christian God, or the primary god in a polytheistic tradition like the Greek Zeus, these are beings associated with justice, righteousness, and (on average) good. Even when they do objectionable or destructive things, they are still considered primarily forces of order and justice within their mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That being said, most mythologies also include figures of high honor that are to be feared, rather than loved. These beings could be genuinely evil like the Christian Devil, or merely cruel and malevolent like the Greek Ares or Discord/Eris. The modern Cthulhu is another example: not evil per se, but also not at all a figure of justice or benevolence. These figures (sometimes) also received sacrifices and honors in their own right, but in an effort to placate them or prevent their wrath.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Worth mentioning: we could debate all day whether WE today consider Zeus or other gods to be &quot;good or evil.&quot; I'm not trying to get into a moral judgement of various mythologies, I'm asking about how they were viewed *by their own worshippers*. The ancient Greeks considered Zeus to be a figure of justice who deserved to rule Olympus, and considered Ares to be horrific, terrifying, and (in the *Iliad*) &quot;the most hateful of all the gods of Olympus.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So I'm wondering, did any culture have a pantheon with a figure like that at its head? Were any pantheons ruled by deities who their own worshippers would consider unjust, illegitimate, malevolent, or outright evil? A religion based primarily around preventing the wrath of heaven, rather than seeking the blessing of heaven?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25461" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="8008" RevisionGUID="dac885d1-83d4-46fb-a2e3-1c9c29ff5904" CreationDate="2021-04-27T05:33:24.643" UserId="158" Text="Did any cultures worship an actively malevolent being as their primary deity?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25462" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="8008" RevisionGUID="dac885d1-83d4-46fb-a2e3-1c9c29ff5904" CreationDate="2021-04-27T05:33:24.643" UserId="158" Text="|comparative|pantheon|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25467" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8010" RevisionGUID="591a22b4-fcf0-4459-b8a5-a80be0bffbf4" CreationDate="2021-04-27T20:53:16.797" UserId="908" Text="Since the list of avataras are actually perfectly mentioned, I am going to provide few links and to answer the question little bit in details, will also add details on the end of the avatar. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [22 Vishnu avatars in chapter 1.3][1] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Four Kumaras (Catursana): the four Sons of god Brahma and exemplified the path of devotion &#xD;&#xA; [Ending] These are believed to living still, named as Sanak, Sanandan, Sanatan, Sanat. Or commonly named as 'SanatKumaras'. They are believed to be living since almost the starting of this universe. &#xD;&#xA;[Reference here][2] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Narasimha: The man-lion who kills demon Hiranyakashpu&#xD;&#xA;*AND* &#xD;&#xA; - Varaha: The divine warthog who lifts earth from cosmic waters &#xD;&#xA; [Ending] Varaha Avtar and his three boar sons then created mayhem in the world, which necessitated Shiva to take the form of Sharabha, to kill the Varaha form. Here, Narasimha appears to aid Varaha. Sharabha kills Narasimha first and then kills Varaha, allowing Vishnu to reabsorb the energies of both his fierce forms. &#xD;&#xA;[Reference here][3]&#xD;&#xA;*Note: This is a view, and many of the puranas might have it written in different ways.* &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA; - Narada: the divine-sage who travels the worlds as a devotee of Vishnu &#xD;&#xA;[Ending] Narada, is believed to be still alive, but has stopped landing on earth. Additionally there is a story in bhagwat purana about his previous birth or past life . &#xD;&#xA;[Reference here][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Nara-Narayana: the twin-sages&#xD;&#xA;[Ending] This is more of a concept, I suppose, and they keep reincarnating. &#xD;&#xA;[Reference here][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Kapila: a renowned sage spoken of in the Mahabharata, son of Kardama Muni and Devahuti and sometimes identified with the founder of the Samkhya school of philosophy &#xD;&#xA;[Ending] not defined, but mostly not mentioned anywhere as alive after 500 BCE. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Rest links are pending, will be updating it soon*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Dattatreya: the combined avatar of the Hindu trinity Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. He was born to the sage Atri became a great seer himself &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Yajna: the lord of fire-sacrifice, who was also a previous &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Indra : the lord of heaven &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Rishabha: the father of Bharata Chakravartin and Bahubali &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Prithu: the sovereign-king who milked the earth as a cow to get the world's grain and &#xD;&#xA;vegetation and also invented agriculture &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Matsya: A narwhal who guided Manu's ark during the pralaya (deluge) and also killed demon Hayagriva&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Kurma: A giant tortoise who balances Mount Mandara atop his carapace during the churning of cosmic ocean of milk &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Dhanvantari: the father of Ayurvedic medicine and a physician to the Devas &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Mohini: the enchantress &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Vamana: The dwarf-brahmana who takes the three worlds from Bali Maharaj and purifies Him &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Parashurama: The Brahmin warrior with an axe who kills Kartyavira Arjuna and his Kshatriya allies &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Sri Rama: 'Perfect King' from Suryavansha, Subject of Ramayana &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Vyasa: the compiler of the scriptures – Vedas and writer of the scriptures (Puranas) and the epic Mahabharata &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Balarama: Elder brother of Krishna. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Krishna: Subject of the Mahabharata and the Bhagavad Geethai &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Garuda: Garuda purana &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Kalki: The Divine Lawgiver&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Avatars like Hayagriva, Hamsa and Garuda are also mentioned in the Pancharatra making the total of thirty-nine avatars.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, despite these lists, the commonly accepted number of ten avatars for Vishnu was fixed well before the 10th century CE.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Madhvacharya also regards Gautama Buddha as an avatar of Vishnu.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://bhagavata.org/canto1/chapter3.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Kumaras&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharabha&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://bhagavata.org/canto1/chapter5.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nara-Narayana" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25471" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="8010" RevisionGUID="5186165b-880f-4c68-8523-73a21a43eb86" CreationDate="2021-04-28T02:38:05.440" UserId="908" Comment="added 2140 characters in body" Text="Since the list of avataras are actually perfectly mentioned, I am going to provide few links and to answer the question little bit in details, will also add details on the end of the avatar. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [22 Vishnu avatars in chapter 1.3][1] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Four Kumaras (Catursana): the four Sons of god Brahma and exemplified the path of devotion &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    [Ending] These are believed to living still, named as Sanak, Sanandan, Sanatan, Sanat. Or commonly named as 'SanatKumaras'. They are believed to be living since almost the starting of this universe. &#xD;&#xA;    [Reference here][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Narasimha: The man-lion who kills demon Hiranyakashpu&#xD;&#xA;*AND* &#xD;&#xA; - Varaha: The divine warthog who lifts earth from cosmic waters &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    [Ending] Varaha Avtar and his three boar sons then created mayhem in the world, which necessitated Shiva to take the form of Sharabha, to kill the Varaha form. Here, Narasimha appears to aid Varaha. Sharabha kills Narasimha first and then kills Varaha, allowing Vishnu to reabsorb the energies of both his fierce forms. &#xD;&#xA;    [Reference here][3]&#xD;&#xA;    *Note: This is a view, and many of the puranas might have it written in different ways.* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA; - Narada: the divine-sage who travels the worlds as a devotee of Vishnu &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    [Ending] Narada, is believed to be still alive, but has stopped landing on earth. Additionally there is a story in bhagwat purana about his previous birth or past life . &#xD;&#xA;    [Reference here][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Nara-Narayana: the twin-sages&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    [Ending] This is more of a concept, I suppose, and they keep reincarnating. &#xD;&#xA;    [Reference here][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Kapila: a renowned sage spoken of in the Mahabharata, son of Kardama Muni and Devahuti and sometimes identified with the founder of the Samkhya school of philosophy &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    [Ending] not defined, but mostly not mentioned anywhere as alive after 500 BCE. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Dattatreya: the combined avatar of the Hindu trinity Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. He was born to the sage Atri became a great seer himself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    [Ending] This avatara has [reincarnated many times][6] and as described in Shir Guru Charitra, meditated in [Kardalivan][7] (Which is located near the Jyotirlinga region of Srisailam in Andhra Pradesh, you might want to read the translated page for the link given) and later disappeared before Shri Narsimha Saraswati Avatar was born. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Yajna: the lord of fire-sacrifice, who was also a previous &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    [Ending] This more of a concept, than the avtar, but Vishnu himself reincarnated is what is said, and no mention of end of this avtar is mentioned anywhere. Its uncertain whether it ended, as yajna's are carried out even today. &#xD;&#xA;[Reference here][8], for details of Yajna (Not sure whether you will get the details on end of the avatara)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Indra : the lord of heaven&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    [Ending] Indra is actually a post, current Indra is named Purandara, as per Shirmad Bhagwat Purana, people appointed at this position usually last for the entire manvantar, and then after the dooms day, it start over again and then a new Indra is elected, based on few criteria. [Reference here][9] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Rishabha: the father of Bharata Chakravartin and Bahubali  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;     [Ending] His death is believed in Jainism to have occurred on Ashtapada (also known as Mount Kailash) on the fourteenth day of Magha Krishna (Hindu Calendar).[54][52][55] His total age at that time is suggested to be 84 lakh purva years, with three years and eight and a half months remaining of the third ara  [Reference Here][10]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Prithu: the sovereign-king who milked the earth as a cow to get the world's grain and vegetation and also invented agriculture &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    [Ending] After governing his kingdom for a long time, Prithu left with his wife Archi, to perform penance in the forest in his last days. He experienced Samadhi and voluntarily gave up his body in the forest, and Archi went Sati on his funeral pyre. [Reference here][11]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Typical 10 avtaras are as below: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Rest links are pending, will be updating it soon*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Matsya: A narwhal who guided Manu's ark during the pralaya (deluge) and also killed demon Hayagriva&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Kurma: A giant tortoise who balances Mount Mandara atop his carapace during the churning of cosmic ocean of milk &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Dhanvantari: the father of Ayurvedic medicine and a physician to the Devas &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Mohini: the enchantress &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Vamana: The dwarf-brahmana who takes the three worlds from Bali Maharaj and purifies Him &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Parashurama: The Brahmin warrior with an axe who kills Kartyavira Arjuna and his Kshatriya allies &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Sri Rama: 'Perfect King' from Suryavansha, Subject of Ramayana &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Vyasa: the compiler of the scriptures – Vedas and writer of the scriptures (Puranas) and the epic Mahabharata &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Balarama: Elder brother of Krishna. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Krishna: Subject of the Mahabharata and the Bhagavad Geethai &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Garuda: Garuda purana &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Kalki: The Divine Lawgiver&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Avatars like Hayagriva, Hamsa and Garuda are also mentioned in the Pancharatra making the total of thirty-nine avatars.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, despite these lists, the commonly accepted number of ten avatars for Vishnu was fixed well before the 10th century CE.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Madhvacharya also regards Gautama Buddha as an avatar of Vishnu.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://bhagavata.org/canto1/chapter3.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Kumaras&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharabha&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://bhagavata.org/canto1/chapter5.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nara-Narayana&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.thekundaliniyoga.org/hindu_gods/shridattaguru/shri_datta_guru_origin_avatars_sadgurus_datta_lineage.aspx&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://mr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%A4%95%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A6%E0%A4%B3%E0%A5%80%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%A8&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://wikivisually.com/wiki/Yajna_(avatar)&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://bhagavata.org/&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rishabhanatha&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prithu" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25472" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1385" RevisionGUID="71310817-0a35-4ec9-8fcc-07f1aa132cbd" CreationDate="2021-04-28T05:07:55.790" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="25473" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8012" RevisionGUID="685701e3-902a-4ed1-bc02-52d42e7e360f" CreationDate="2021-04-28T08:54:34.463" UserId="5511" Text="When I studied Oriental philology, we covered some topics that might fit this question:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1) In many cases, it's not the (un)belief in aspects of the myth (such as dragons in your example) between cultures and languages, but the fact that these words mean something completely different in the myth receiving language. A good example would be the taboo on the Chinese pronunciation of the number 4 in Japanese: all numbers (as do most words) in Japanese have a Sino-Japanese word as well as a native word for them. For the number 4 the Sino-Japanese word is &quot;shi&quot; which is very similar to the native word for &quot;death&quot;. Hence it is almost never used. This phenomenon is part of the domain of [Sociolinguistics][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2) What you describe as &quot;very simple&quot; oral adaptations &amp; adoptions actually has several study domains within linguistics that you are perhaps unaware of:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Sociophonetics][2]&#xD;&#xA; - [Lenition][3]&#xD;&#xA; - the use of evolutionary theory and computer modeling in the comparative analysis of myths and folktales - [podcast][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociolinguistics&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociophonetics&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenition&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.podchaser.com/podcasts/science-talk-12389/episodes/how-myths-evolve-over-time-and-3007467" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25474" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8013" RevisionGUID="e7cee45b-ee19-4c14-be0f-87c77df73250" CreationDate="2021-04-29T01:33:46.423" UserId="2892" Text="My sense is that the ancient Greeks did not believe the gods to be a specific size. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It strikes me that they took the large scale statues, such as the famous [Zeus at Olympia][1], as literal representations, and I'll have to review the passages of the [Iliad][2] where mortals wound gods, but my recollection is of the gods as towering on the battlefield. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't think this excludes them being normal sized because they did interact with mortals in human form, such as dining with [Tantalus][3]—Demeter [gnawed on Pelops' shoulder bone][4]. Not to mention:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Zeus was a notorious shapeshifter—he could presumably be all kinds of sizes!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Zeus_at_Olympia&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0217%3Abook%3D1%3Acard%3D1&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantalus#Mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelops#Tantalus'_savage_banquet" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25475" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="7761" RevisionGUID="e0a53fed-0a5c-4e56-b516-582384600ca9" CreationDate="2021-04-29T09:01:00.113" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="25480" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8016" RevisionGUID="a98ef445-e023-40c5-8e1d-efd41b67e8ba" CreationDate="2021-04-29T12:09:01.773" UserId="2682" Text="ACTION SCENES&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We have several details connected with the part of the chronology in question, but as far as I've been able to find, beyond plain statements about there having been a cosmic conflict, there are only two fairly fleshed-out fight scenes from this war. One of them is the final showdown between the Olympians and the Titans, narrated at some length in [Hesiod's *Theogony*](https://www.theoi.com/Text/HesiodTheogony.html) 664-735. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Kronos vs Zeus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The other battle-scene is a brief mention by Nonnus in Book 18 of his *Dionysiaca*. Kronos is here described as having the power to control weather phenomena so that in Lines 230-234, he calls sharp arrows of hail down from the sky upon Zeus but then the latter, in response, &quot;armed himself with more fires than the sun and melted the petrified water with hotter sparks.&quot; I presume that Zeus's &quot;fires&quot; here are intended as a poetic description of lightning. In *Dionysiaca* 24, Kronos is &quot;armed in vain with the watery weapons of the storm.&quot; In Book 12 of the same work it is implied that among these weapons are snowstorms.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Nine Hundred Arms**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apart from Poseidon's Trident, Hades's cap of invisibility, and an unnamed giant connected with Kronos (more on him in the section `Kronos's Gigantic Allies` below), the only other thing we are told about the implements of warfare employed during this altercation is that both sides used hard *bélea*, &quot;missiles,&quot; of some kind, against each other. Occurring in this instance in Hesiod's *Theogony* 684, this word often refers to arrows or spears but could mean any kind of weapon, such as swords, or even scorpion-stings. In Line 716 the term refers to the barrage of rocks hurled at the Titans by the Hundred-Handed Ones.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod's narration of this battlefield clash is concerned mostly with the environmental effects thereof. According to this passage, the two rival groups caused so much commotion that its reverberations were felt throughout the universe. The noise they made rang throughout the sea, the sky quaked, the stamping of their feet shook the earth all the way into Tartaros [Tartarus], and the din of their voices reached the stars.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first few lines of the aforementioned *Theogony* passage tell us that Zeus's entire team of gods, &quot;both male and female,&quot; participated in the battle, but the only figures who feature in their own special cameos in the ensuing combat as to be singled out by name are Zeus and his three Hundred-Handed uncles. (See, however, the case of Menoitios [Menoetius] below.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After the world-rattling noise made by the clashing armies, &quot;Then,&quot; in Lines 687-714, &quot;Zeus no longer held back his might&quot;, whereupon he began to pour a blitz of thunder and lightning upon the enemy. Even so, Hesiod's focus remains fixed on the resultant damage that this caused to the landscape, which was bathed in flames that lit all the woodlands ablaze. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meanwhile the entire atmosphere was cooked all the way up to the limits of Chaos itself so that the sea and even the perpetually placid, earth-encircling stream of Okeanos [Oceanus] begin to boil, and the Titans were blinded. In spite of all of that, and further noise, dust-storm and earthquake, the contest raged on as the two sides &quot;kept at one another and fought continually in cruel war.&quot; Kronos did *not* surrender. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to *Theogony* 713-735, what turned the tide of the war is that Kottos [Cottus], Briareos [Briareus] and Gyes, the three Hundred-Handed Giants, overpowered the Titans with the superior speed and volume granted to their firepower by the number of appendages they had at their disposal for launching their &quot;missiles&quot; of stone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The scene then abruptly shifts to a description of Tartaros and how the Titans were cast into it after being assaulted by the Hekatonkheires [Hundred-Handers]. Poseidon appears in this passage, but only to be mentioned as the builder of the bronze doors fitted over the mouth of the pit of Tartaros to increase its inescapability. The passage then ends with the Hekatonkheires being sent back to Tartaros but this time as its jailers, guarding their brother Kronos who previously had held them prisoner in the same pit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Menoitios**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There were four of Zeus's cousins who were brothers, named Atlas, Menoitios, Prometheus and Epimetheus. In some way or another, whether they had sided with him in the war or not, Zeus ended up having a major falling-out with each of them that resulted in some punishment or calamity that the Olympian leader inflicted upon each brother after the war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of the four, Menoitios is the one we know the least about. He is, however, exceptional in that he is also the only Titan specifically named as having been brought low by Zeus's thunderbolt *during the course of* the war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Menoitios was hubristic, and far-seeing Zeus struck him with a lurid&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thunderbolt and sent him down to Erebos [*Erebus, the Darkness of the Underworld*] because of his mad presumption&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and exceeding pride.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*Theogony* 514-516&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; ... Menoitios, he whom Zeus in the battle with the Titans smote with a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thunderbolt and hurled down to Tartaros.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Apollodorus, *Library* 1.2.3&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For some reason William Smith's 1890 Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology goes so far as to say that this lightning-blast actually killed Menoitios.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Beginning&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The dawn of war is described in *Theogony* 383-403, where we learn that the first soldiers to join up with Zeus, upon his declaration that he was going up against his father, were, incidentally, a bunch of winged Titans. These recruits, two sisters (Nike and Bia, &quot;Victory&quot; and &quot;Violence&quot;) and two brothers (Zelos and Kratos, &quot;Zeal&quot; and &quot;Might&quot;), were the children of the Underworld river Styx, and eventually would become the personal bodyguard of Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's no account of any confrontation between Poseidon and Okeanos because the latter abstained from fighting in the war. He was also the only one of the original six male Titans to refrain from laying violent hands upon his own father Ouranos [Uranus] when Kronos was castrating the cosmic sky-god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Okeanos learned of Zeus's war announcement, he advised Styx, his eldest daughter, to enlist with the Olympians along with her four children. As a reward, Styx's name became the most sacred oath in the universe, and, once Kronos had been overthrown, Styx's offspring were assigned their permanent employment at the side of the new king of the gods. Okeanos, for his part, maintained his position as the god of the earth-encircling river which was his own body, and thus an integral part of the superstructure of the universe. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus had incentivised his soldiers with the lure of positions of privilege in the new régime for whoever would join his cause. According to Aeschylus' play *Prometheus Bound*, Zeus promptly kept these campaign promises by doling out the aforementioned goodies &quot;as soon as he had seated himself on his father’s throne&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a fragment from a lost work of Aeschylus, the goddess Dike, &quot;Justice,&quot; says that Kronos was defeated by Zeus because the latter had her on his side, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;since his father began the quarrel, that he paid him back with Justice&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on his side. That is why Zeus has done me great honour, because after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; being attacked he paid him back, not unjustly.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For this reason, says Dike, she sits &quot;in glory by the throne of Zeus&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Total War&#xD;&#xA;---------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The battlefield of the Titanomachy would appear to have been the Plain of Thessaly, which lies in between the two mountains upon which Hesiod situates the strongholds of the two opposing camps. The Titans were stationed on Mt Othrys, at the southern end of the plain, while Zeus and his crew had set up on Mt Olympos [Olympus], towards the northern edge of the region, which is what made the latter &quot;Olympians.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the same passage in which Hesiod supplies us this geography (*Theogony* 616-643), he says that the fighting between the two camps never let up, not even for a little bit, but raged on &quot;ten full years ... continually&quot;, with neither side losing or gaining any ground because of how evenly they were matched. It was then that Gaia advised Zeus to release the Hekatonkheires from Tartaros, in which incarceration they had spent their entire lives, and where Kronos had posted an immense millipede-like monster called Kampe [Campe] as their prison warden.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Apollodorus' *Library* 1.2.1, Zeus killed Kampe in order to effect his uncles' release. In *Dionysiaca* 18.235-267, Nonnus describes the scene at length. He does, however spend the majority of those 32 lines merely describing the monster in intricate detail. He expends only a single sentence to say very simply that Zeus killed and conquered her, with no further information as to the means by which he achieved this. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus has yet way less detail than this, although it is from him that we learn why Zeus had needed to confront her in the first place. In Apollodorus, the Cyclopes as well as the Hekatonkheires have likewise endured lifelong captivity in Tartaros before being released by Zeus. At this point Hesiod's narrative continues with the Hundred-Handers being fed nectar and ambrosia, which &quot;revived their proud spirit within them&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After this it doesn't take much for Zeus's two sets of triplet Giant uncles to get with his program, and this is where Kronos's team virtually gets pelted into Tartaros after being sprayed with thunderbolts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Hyginus' *Astronomica* 2.39 the Cyclopes construct the constellation Ara, the &quot;Altar,&quot; upon which&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the gods are thought to have first made offerings and formed an&#xD;&#xA;&gt; alliance when they were about to oppose the Titans... From this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; observance men established the custom that when they plan to do&#xD;&#xA;&gt; something, they make sacrifices before beginning the undertaking.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Defections&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to *Prometheus Bound*, Prometheus learned the future from his mother Themis, and together with her he defected to the Olympian side. Before he did so, however, he tried to persuade his fellow Titans to do likewise but they wouldn't listen to him. Hesychius says that Prometheus had been the herald of the Titans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(There is an obscure apocryphal story according to which the reason that Zeus is hostile towards Prometheus is that he was born to Hera after the goddess had been raped by the Giant Eurymedon while she was still living in her parents' house. Eurymedon was cast into Tartaros together with the Titans who lost the war.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There was also at least one defection to the other side. According to Ptolemy Hephaestion, the winged rainbow-goddess Iris, who was the swiftest being in the universe, had a sister named Arke [Arce]. Like Iris, Arke was winged, and &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; during the struggle of the gods against the Titans, Arke flew out of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the camp of the gods and joined the Titans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After the war, Zeus tore off Arke's wings and cast her into Tartaros. Thousands of years later, at the wedding of Peleus and Thetis, he presented these wings as a gift to Thetis. When the sea-goddess had her son Akhilleus [Achilles], she attached the wings to his feet, thus making him the fastest runner alive at the time. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kronos's Gigantic Allies&#xD;&#xA;------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Indos** [Indus]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like Zeus, Kronos too had Giants on his side. In *Dionysiaca* 18, immediately after the reference to Kampe's death, Nonnus tells us that Indos, the ancestor of the Indians, was an autochthonous &quot;champion of warfare with towering limbs... brought low&quot; by Zeus &quot;in the conflict with Kronos&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Son of Ekhidna** [*Echidna*]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He then goes on to describe a humongous &quot;dragon-footed&quot; creature he calls simply &quot;Ekhidna's son&quot; and &quot;the enemy of the gods&quot;, who spat venom into the Sky in such profusion that it created large clouds of poison, and who was so huge that the birds flying through the air would get caught in the vast mass of his dreadlocked hair, which hair he would then use to sweep these birds into his mouth to chew them live for dinner. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nonnus seems to be describing a peculiar apparatus in which Kronos used this Giant as some sort of missile or shield to counter Zeus' thunderbolts. The Giant was killed by Ares, and as is typical, we are told nothing about the method by which this was accomplished. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Briareos-Aigaion, the Sea-Giant**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There apparently was a rendition of this whole story in which a different version of the Hekatonkheiros [Hundred-Hander] Briareos took Kronos's side in the war. We are told in *Iliad* 1 that Briareos is this Giant's divine name but that &quot;all men&quot; know him, rather, by the name Aigaion [Aegaeon].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a now-lost *Titanomachy* epic attributed to Eumelus of Corinth. One of the very few things we know about it is that, within it, Aigaion, just as in the *Iliad*, is depicted as dwelling in the sea, but unlike in Homer's work, Eumelus says that Aigaion was &quot;an ally of the Titans.&quot; He also portrays the Giant as a son of Pontos [Pontus, the &quot;Sea&quot;] and Gaia (the Earth). According to Ion of Chios, Aigaion was the son, rather, of Thalassa, the *female* personification of the sea (over against the male Pontos).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Callimachus' Hymn to Delos seems to envision Briareos as having been buried under Mt Aitna [Aetna] on the island of Sicily, in the same manner that the same end is usually ascribed to the Giants Enkelados [Enceladus] and Typhoeus after *their* altercation(s) with the Olympians. Earthquakes and volcanic eruptions on the island are then explained as one of these monsters shifting under the earth's weight above them, or fuming furiously against Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***The Guts of the Serpent-Bull***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The featured contribution of this alternate Briareos to the war effort during the Titanomachy is narrated by the Roman poet Ovid in *Fasti* 3.793-808, where he says that Gaia had given birth to a shocking monster in the shape of a bull that, in place of hindquarters, was a snake. It was somehow known that whoever burned the intestines of this creature &quot;was destined to defeat the eternal gods.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Styx, trusty ally of Zeus that she was, and aided by the counsel of the three Fates, managed to capture and corral this monster snake-bull in a location which seems to be the Underworld. Briareos, however, was able to kill the monster using an unbreakable axe. He was about to perform the dread sacrifice, but since Zeus had commanded the birds to bring the monster's entrails to him, the kite snatched them just in time, delivering these innards to Zeus. This bird was then commemorated by being placed in the sky, within the constellation Boötes, as an asterism named Milvus, &quot;Kite.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Azeus?** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A fragment from an unnamed writer says that a Giant named Azeus son of Gaia &quot;grew to manhood amid the mighty battles of the Titans.&quot; The most natural reading of this is perhaps that Azeus just happened to turn 18 or 21 while the Titanomachy was raging and not necessarily that he participated in it at all. And if he did fight in the war, we do not know on which side.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Water Supply&#xD;&#xA;------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Giovanni Boccaccio's *Genealogy of the Gods of the Gentiles* 3.5, Akheron [Acheron], the Underworld River of Woe, was a son of Demeter &quot;without a father,&quot; or he was the son of Helios and Gaia, and originally lived in the upper world. During the Titanomachy he provided &quot;clear water to the thirsty&quot; Titans. After the war Zeus muddied his clear water and thrust him into the Underworld where the sole source of moisture for his stream now became the tears of sinners suffering in Tartaros.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other Titanomachies&#xD;&#xA;-------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The God That Fought for His Life, and Lost**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are yet other rather different accounts of the conflict between the new gods and the Titans. At least two of them might be Orphic. In *Dionysiaca* 6, Nonnus tells the story of Zagreus, the powerful shape-shifting baby son of Zeus by his own daughter Kore (who later becomes Persephone). Indignant that Zeus had placed this illegitimate infant upstart upon his own throne and let him play with his thunderbolts, Hera induced &quot;the Titans&quot; to trick the baby god and cut him to pieces with &quot;an infernal knife.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;The Titans are able to corner Zagreus by covering their faces&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with chalk and by showing him a mirror, which seems to be some sort of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a big deal because, even though he is just a baby, Zagreus quickly&#xD;&#xA;&gt; becomes aware that his life is in danger and launches into a series of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; metamorphoses which by the end prove useless against the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; onslaught.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Zagreus's first instinct is to transform his appearance into that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of his own father Zeus... Then he appears as... &quot;Kronos, heavy-kneed,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and pouring rain.&quot; After those... disguises, Zagreus becomes a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; baby, an adolescent boy, a roaring lion, a wild horse, a snake, a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tiger and then a bull.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;With the sharp horns of his bull-form, Zagreus attempts to gore&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Titans, but then Hera, who is watching from a distance, emits a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bellow so loud that it causes the Zagreus-bull to collapse. The bull&#xD;&#xA;&gt; then gets slaughtered.&lt;/sup&gt;   &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;*~ From [my Answer to another&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Question](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/4672/2682)*&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In response to this Zeus confines the Titans to Tartaros and angrily sets the entire world on fire until Okeanos weeps for the scorched earth. Zeus calms down and then, in order to douse the flames, floods the entire cosmos, causing even more death and destruction than the fire did. In this version, this is how the Flood of Deukalion [Deucalion] happened, after which the land is drained of the floodwaters, and the world gets slowly repopulated. Zagreus himself is later reincarnated as Dionysos [Dionysus].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a variant of this myth, the Titans devoured the murdered Zagreus-Dionysos, and Zeus reduced them to ashes with a blast of lightning. These remains were then mixed with mud, from which arose humankind, which therefore has two warring natures within it, one celestial and Dionysiac, and the other earthly and Titanic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The African Titan-Wars**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to entry 150 of Hyginus' *Fabulae*, Hera was jealous of Epaphos [Epaphus] yet another one of Zeus's illegitimate offspring, in his case because he ruled the great kingdom of Egypt. Hera assassinated him and then encouraged the Titans, led by Atlas, to depose Zeus in order to restore Kronos to the throne. Attempting to &quot;climb up to heaven,&quot; the Titans were instead cast headlong into Tartaros by Zeus, who was supported on this occasion by Athena, Apollo and Artemis. Posted in what is now Morocco, Atlas was then forced to bear the weight of the sky on his shoulders in order to keep it separate from the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [*Library of History* 3.68-74](https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Diodorus_Siculus/3E*.html), Diodorus Siculus tells a euhemerised version of the Titanomachy in which Dionysos, the son Ammon and Amaltheia, engages in a protracted war against his stepmother Rhea and her brother Kronos, whom she had married after divorcing his father Ammon. All the characters in the story are portrayed as regular humans, with the Titans as a tribe of mortals rising up against the rule of Dionysos in the region of Libya. At some point Dionysos' army is composed of both Libyans and Amazons.              &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;*Parts of the above have been adapted from my participation in a post about the Titanomachy on MythForum.com*&lt;/sup&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25482" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6390" RevisionGUID="ffa66b89-a141-404f-83e3-0c77d5be77e3" CreationDate="2021-04-29T13:41:47.817" UserId="6920" Comment="grammar and punctuation" Text="I know Ares is the god of war and all, but in most stories I've read, he mostly acts more like a villain instead of a god. Why would anyone worship such a god? In stark contrast, Mars was widely worshipped." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25483" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="6390" RevisionGUID="ffa66b89-a141-404f-83e3-0c77d5be77e3" CreationDate="2021-04-29T13:41:47.817" Comment="Proposed by 6920 approved by 2682, 398 edit id of 1867" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25487" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="8016" RevisionGUID="0042c790-ebae-4ea1-9cb3-aa1074c111b2" CreationDate="2021-04-29T15:22:18.523" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar, improved formatting, &amp; added &amp; adjusted info" Text="ACTION SCENES&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We have several details connected with the part of the chronology in question, but as far as I've been able to find, beyond plain statements about there having been a cosmic conflict, there are only two fairly fleshed-out fight scenes from this war. One of them is the final showdown between the Olympians and the Titans, narrated at some length in [Hesiod's *Theogony*](https://www.theoi.com/Text/HesiodTheogony.html) 664-735. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Kronos vs Zeus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The other battle-scene is a brief mention by Nonnus in Book 18 of his *Dionysiaca*. Kronos is here described as having the power to control weather phenomena so that in Lines 230-234, he calls sharp arrows of hail down from the sky upon Zeus but then the latter, in response, &quot;armed himself with more fires than the sun and melted the petrified water with hotter sparks.&quot; I presume that Zeus's &quot;fires&quot; here are intended as a poetic description of lightning. In *Dionysiaca* 24, Kronos is &quot;armed in vain with the watery weapons of the storm.&quot; In Book 12 of the same work it is implied that among these weapons are snowstorms.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Nine Hundred Arms**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apart from Poseidon's Trident, Hades's cap of invisibility, and an unnamed giant connected with Kronos (more on him in the section `Kronos's Gigantic Allies` below), the only other thing we are told about the implements of warfare employed during this altercation is that both sides used hard *bélea*, &quot;missiles,&quot; of some kind, against each other. Occurring in this instance in Hesiod's *Theogony* 684, this word often refers to arrows or spears but could mean any kind of weapon, such as swords, or even scorpion-stings. In Line 716 the term refers to the barrage of rocks hurled at the Titans by the Hundred-Handed Ones.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod's narration of this battlefield clash is concerned mostly with the environmental effects thereof. According to this passage, the two rival groups caused so much commotion that its reverberations were felt throughout the universe. The noise they made rang throughout the sea, the sky quaked, the stamping of their feet shook the earth all the way into Tartaros [Tartarus], and the din of their voices reached the stars.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first few lines of the aforementioned *Theogony* passage tell us that Zeus's entire team of gods, &quot;both male and female,&quot; participated in the battle, but the only figures who feature in their own special cameos in the ensuing combat as to be singled out by name are Zeus and his three Hundred-Handed uncles. (See, however, the case of Menoitios [Menoetius] below.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After the world-rattling noise made by the clashing armies, &quot;Then,&quot; in Lines 687-714, &quot;Zeus no longer held back his might&quot;, whereupon he began to pour a blitz of thunder and lightning upon the enemy. Even so, Hesiod's focus remains fixed on the damage wreaked upon the landscape, which was bathed in flames that lit all the woodlands ablaze. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meanwhile the entire atmosphere was cooked all the way up to the limits of Chaos itself so that the sea and even the perpetually placid, earth-encircling stream of Okeanos [Oceanus] begin to boil, and the Titans were blinded. In spite of all of that, and further noise, dust-storm and earthquake, the contest raged on as the two sides &quot;kept at one another and fought continually in cruel war.&quot; Kronos did *not* surrender. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to *Theogony* 713-735, what turned the tide of the war is that Kottos [Cottus], Briareos [Briareus] and Gyes, the three Hundred-Handed Giants, overpowered the Titans with the superior speed and volume granted to their firepower by the number of appendages they had at their disposal for launching their &quot;missiles&quot; of stone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The scene then abruptly shifts to a description of Tartaros and how the Titans were cast into it after being assaulted by the Hekatonkheires [Hundred-Handers]. Poseidon appears in this passage, but only to be mentioned as the builder of the bronze doors fitted over the mouth of the pit of Tartaros to increase its inescapability. The passage then ends with the Hekatonkheires being sent back to Tartaros but this time as its jailers, guarding their brother Kronos who previously had held them prisoner in the same chasm.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Menoitios**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There were four of Zeus's cousins who were brothers, named Atlas, Menoitios, Prometheus and Epimetheus. In some way or another, whether they had sided with him in the war or not, Zeus ended up having a major falling-out with each of them that resulted in some punishment or calamity that the Olympian leader visited upon each brother after the war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of the four, Menoitios is the one we know the least about. He is, however, exceptional in that he is also the only Titan specifically named as having been brought low by Zeus's thunderbolt *during the course* of the war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Menoitios was hubristic, and far-seeing Zeus struck him with a lurid&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thunderbolt and sent him down to Erebos [*Erebus, the Darkness of the Underworld*] because of his mad presumption&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and exceeding pride.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*Theogony* 514-516&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; ... Menoitios, he whom Zeus in the battle with the Titans smote with a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thunderbolt and hurled down to Tartaros.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Apollodorus, *Library* 1.2.3&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For some reason William Smith's 1890 Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology goes so far as to say that this lightning-zap actually killed Menoitios.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sykeus, the 13th Titan?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Athenaeus' *Deipnosophistae*, quoting Tryphon's *History of Plants*, quoting *The Farmer's Handbook* by Androtion, refers to Sykeus as &quot;one of the Titans&quot; whose mother was Gaia (the Earth), essentially suggesting the idea that there was a thirteenth Titan born to Ouranos [Uranus, the &quot;Sky&quot;] and Gaia, although Ouranos is not explicitly mentioned in this passage. We know nothing about what happened to Sykeus beyond the assertion that Zeus pursued him and that Gaia protected him, causing the *sykea* (&quot;fig-tree&quot;), &quot;to grow for her son's pleasure; from him also the city of Sykea in Cilicia got its name.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Beginning&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The dawn of war is described in *Theogony* 383-403, where we learn that the first soldiers to join up with Zeus, upon his declaration that he was going up against his father, were, incidentally, a bunch of winged Titans. These recruits, two sisters (Nike and Bia, &quot;Victory&quot; and &quot;Violence&quot;) and two brothers (Zelos and Kratos, &quot;Zeal&quot; and &quot;Might&quot;), were the children of the Underworld river Styx, and eventually would become the personal bodyguard of Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's no account of any confrontation between Poseidon and Okeanos because the latter abstained from fighting in the war. He was also the only one of the original male Titans to refrain from laying violent hands upon Ouranos when Kronos was castrating their father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Okeanos learned of Zeus's war announcement, he advised Styx, his eldest daughter, to enlist with the Olympians along with her four children. As a reward, Styx's name became the most sacred oath in the universe, and, once Kronos had been overthrown, Styx's offspring were assigned their permanent employment at the side of the new king of the gods. Okeanos, for his part, maintained his position as the god of the world-encircling river which was his own body, and thus an integral part of the superstructure of the universe. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus had incentivised his soldiers with the lure of positions of privilege in the new régime for whoever would join his cause. According to Aeschylus' play *Prometheus Bound*, Zeus promptly kept these campaign promises by doling out the aforementioned goodies &quot;as soon as he had seated himself on his father’s throne&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a fragment from a lost work of Aeschylus, the goddess Dike, &quot;Justice,&quot; says that Kronos was defeated by Zeus because the latter had her on his side, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;since his father began the quarrel, that he paid him back with Justice&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on his side. That is why Zeus has done me great honour, because after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; being attacked he paid him back, not unjustly.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For this reason, says Dike, she sits &quot;in glory by the throne of Zeus&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Total War&#xD;&#xA;---------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The battlefield of the Titanomachy would appear to have been the Plain of Thessaly, which lies in between the two mountains upon which Hesiod situates the strongholds of the two opposing camps. The Titans were stationed on Mt Othrys, at the southern end of the plain, while Zeus and his crew had set up on Mt Olympos [Olympus], towards the northern edge of the region.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the same passage in which Hesiod supplies us this geography (*Theogony* 616-643), he says that the fighting between the two camps never let up, not even for a little bit, but raged on &quot;ten full years ... continually&quot;, with neither side losing or gaining any ground because of how evenly they were matched. It was then that Gaia advised Zeus to release the Hekatonkheires from Tartaros, in which incarceration they had spent their entire lives, and where Kronos had posted an immense millipede-like monster called Kampe [Campe] as their prison warden.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Apollodorus' *Library* 1.2.1, Zeus killed Kampe in order to effect his uncles' release. In *Dionysiaca* 18.235-267, Nonnus describes the scene at length. He does, however spend the majority of those 32 lines merely describing the monster in intricate detail. He expends only a single sentence to say very simply that Zeus killed and conquered her, with no further information as to the means by which he achieved this. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus has yet way less detail than this, although it is from him that we learn why Zeus had needed to confront her in the first place. In Apollodorus, the Cyclopes as well as the Hekatonkheires have likewise endured lifelong captivity in Tartaros before being released by Zeus. At this point Hesiod's narrative continues with the Hundred-Handers being fed nectar and ambrosia, which &quot;revived their proud spirit within them&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After this it doesn't take much for Zeus's two sets of triplet Giant uncles to get with his program, and this is where Kronos's team virtually gets pelted into Tartaros after being sprayed with thunderbolts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Hyginus' *Astronomica* 2.39 the Cyclopes construct the constellation Ara, the &quot;Altar,&quot; upon which&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the gods are thought to have first made offerings and formed an&#xD;&#xA;&gt; alliance when they were about to oppose the Titans... From this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; observance men established the custom that when they plan to do&#xD;&#xA;&gt; something, they make sacrifices before beginning the undertaking.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Defections&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to *Prometheus Bound*, Prometheus learned the future from his mother Themis, and together with her he defected to the Olympian side. Before he did so, however, he tried to persuade his fellow Titans to do likewise but they wouldn't listen to him. Hesychius says that Prometheus had been the herald of the Titans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(There is an obscure apocryphal story according to which the reason that Zeus is hostile towards Prometheus is that he was born to Hera after the goddess had been raped by the Giant Eurymedon while she was still living in her parents' house. Eurymedon was cast into Tartaros together with the Titans who lost the war.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There was also at least one defection to the other side. According to Ptolemy Hephaestion, the winged rainbow-goddess Iris, who was the swiftest being in the universe, had a sister named Arke [Arce]. Like Iris, Arke was winged, and &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; during the struggle of the gods against the Titans, Arke flew out of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the camp of the gods and joined the Titans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After the war, Zeus tore off Arke's wings and cast her into Tartaros. Thousands of years later, at the wedding of Peleus and Thetis, he presented these wings as a gift to Thetis. When the sea-goddess had her son Akhilleus [Achilles], she attached the wings to his feet, thus making him the fastest runner alive at the time. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kronos's Gigantic Allies&#xD;&#xA;------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Indos** [Indus]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like Zeus, Kronos too had Giants on his side. In *Dionysiaca* 18, immediately after the reference to Kampe's death, Nonnus tells us that Indos, the ancestor of the Indians, was an autochthonous &quot;champion of warfare with towering limbs... brought low&quot; by Zeus &quot;in the conflict with Kronos&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Son of Ekhidna** [*Echidna*]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He then goes on to describe a humongous &quot;dragon-footed&quot; creature he calls simply &quot;Ekhidna's son&quot; and &quot;the enemy of the gods&quot;, who spat venom into the Sky in such profusion that it created large clouds of poison, and who was so huge that the birds flying through the air would get caught in the vast mass of his dreadlocked hair, which hair he would then use to sweep these birds into his mouth to chew them live for dinner. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nonnus seems to be describing a peculiar apparatus in which Kronos used this Giant as some sort of missile or shield to counter Zeus' thunderbolts. The Giant was killed by Ares, and as is typical, we are told nothing about the method by which this was accomplished. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Briareos-Aigaion, the Sea-Giant**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There apparently was a rendition of this whole story in which a different version of the Hekatonkheiros [Hundred-Hander] Briareos took Kronos's side in the war. We are told in *Iliad* 1 that Briareos is this Giant's divine name but that &quot;all men&quot; know him, rather, by the name Aigaion [Aegaeon].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a now-lost *Titanomachy* epic attributed to Eumelus of Corinth. One of the very few things we know about it is that, within it, Aigaion, just as in the *Iliad*, is depicted as dwelling in the sea, but unlike in Homer's work, Eumelus says that Aigaion was &quot;an ally of the Titans.&quot; He also portrays the Giant as a son of Pontos [Pontus, the &quot;Sea&quot;] and Gaia. According to Ion of Chios, Aigaion was the son, rather, of Thalassa, the *female* personification of the sea (over against the male Pontos).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Callimachus' Hymn to Delos seems to envision Briareos as having been buried under Mt Aitna [Aetna] on the island of Sicily, in the same manner that the same end is usually ascribed to the Giants Enkelados [Enceladus] and Typhoeus after *their* altercation(s) with the Olympians. Earthquakes and volcanic eruptions on the island are then explained as one of these monsters shifting under the earth's weight above them, or fuming furiously against Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***The Guts of the Serpent-Bull***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The featured contribution of this alternate Briareos to the war effort during the Titanomachy is narrated by the Roman poet Ovid in *Fasti* 3.793-808, where he says that Gaia had given birth to a shocking monster in the shape of a bull that, in place of hindquarters, was a snake. It was somehow known that whoever burned the intestines of this creature &quot;was destined to defeat the eternal gods.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Styx, trusty ally of Zeus that she was, and aided by the counsel of the three Fates, managed to capture and corral this monster snake-bull in a location which seems to be the Underworld. Briareos, however, was able to kill the monster using an unbreakable axe. He was about to perform the dread sacrifice, but since Zeus had commanded the birds to bring the monster's entrails to him, the kite snatched them just in time, delivering these innards to Zeus. This bird was then commemorated by being placed in the sky, within the constellation Boötes, as an asterism named Milvus, the &quot;Kite.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Azeus?** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A fragment from an unnamed writer says that a Giant named Azeus son of Gaia &quot;grew to manhood amid the mighty battles of the Titans.&quot; The most natural reading of this is perhaps that Azeus just happened to turn 18 or 21 while the Titanomachy was raging and not necessarily that he participated in it at all. And if he did fight in the war, we do not know on which side.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Water Supply&#xD;&#xA;------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Giovanni Boccaccio's *Genealogy of the Gods of the Gentiles* 3.5, Akheron [Acheron], the Underworld River of Woe, was a son of Demeter &quot;without a father,&quot; or he was the son of Helios and Gaia, and originally lived in the upper world. During the Titanomachy he provided &quot;clear water to the thirsty&quot; Titans. After the war Zeus muddied his clear water and thrust him into the Underworld where the sole source of moisture for his stream now became the tears of sinners suffering in Tartaros.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other Titanomachies&#xD;&#xA;-------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The God That Fought for His Life (and Lost)**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are yet other, rather different accounts of the conflict between the new gods and the Titans. At least two of them might be Orphic. In *Dionysiaca* 6, Nonnus tells the story of Zagreus, the powerful shape-shifting baby son of Zeus by his own daughter Kore (who later becomes Persephone). Indignant that Zeus has placed this illegitimate infant upstart upon his own throne and lets him play with his thunderbolts, Hera induces &quot;the Titans&quot; to trick the baby god and cut him to pieces with &quot;an infernal knife.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;The Titans are able to corner Zagreus by covering their faces&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with chalk and by showing him a mirror...&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Zagreus's first instinct is to transform his appearance into that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of his own father Zeus... Then he appears as... &quot;Kronos, heavy-kneed,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and pouring rain.&quot; After those... disguises, Zagreus becomes a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; baby, an adolescent boy, a roaring lion, a wild horse, a snake, a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tiger and then a bull.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;With the sharp horns of his bull-form, Zagreus attempts to gore&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Titans, but then Hera, who is watching from a distance, emits a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bellow so loud that it causes the Zagreus-bull to collapse. The bull&#xD;&#xA;&gt; then gets slaughtered.&lt;/sup&gt;   &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;*~ From [my Answer to another&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Question](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/4672/2682)*&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In response to this, Zeus confines the Titans to Tartaros, and angrily sets the entire world on fire until Okeanos weeps for the scorched earth. Zeus calms down and then, in order to douse the flames, he floods the entire cosmos, causing even more death and destruction than the fire did. In this version, this is how the Flood of Deukalion [Deucalion] happens, after which the land is drained of the floodwaters, and the world gets slowly repopulated. Zagreus himself is later reincarnated as Dionysos [Dionysus].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a variant of this myth, the Titans devoured the murdered Zagreus-Dionysos, and Zeus reduced them to ashes with a blast of lightning. These remains were then mixed with mud, from which arose humankind, which therefore has two warring natures within it, one celestial and Dionysiac, and the other earthly and Titanic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The African Titan-Wars**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to entry 150 of Hyginus' *Fabulae*, Hera was jealous of Epaphos [Epaphus], yet another one of Zeus's illegitimate offspring, in his case because he ruled the great kingdom of Egypt. Hera assassinated him and then encouraged the Titans, led by Atlas, to depose Zeus in order to restore Kronos to the throne. Attempting to &quot;climb up to heaven,&quot; the Titans were instead cast headlong into Tartaros by Zeus, who was supported on this occasion by Athena, Apollo and Artemis. Posted in what is now Morocco, Atlas was then forced to bear the weight of the sky on his shoulders in order to keep it separate from the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [*Library of History* 3.68-74](https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Diodorus_Siculus/3E*.html), Diodorus Siculus narrates a euhemerised version of the Titanomachy in which Rhea was first married to a Libyan king called Ammon. After an affair with &quot;a maiden of unusual beauty whose name was Amaltheia&quot;, Ammon had a son named Dionysos, whom he hid from his wife. When Rhea found out about it, she went to her brothers the Titans and married one of them, Kronos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Dionysos had grown up, war broke out between him and his father's ex-wife, who, together with Kronos and the rest of her brothers, began an uprising against the rule of Dionysos. All the characters in the story are presented as regular humans. At some point Dionysos' army is composed of both Libyans and Amazons. He overcomes the Titans, making peace with Rhea but eventually having to kill rebels led by Kronos.              &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;*Parts of the above have been adapted from my participation in a post about the Titanomachy on MythForum.com*&lt;/sup&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25488" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="8004" RevisionGUID="4271426e-ce41-4f9c-84bf-400d9fde6b8b" CreationDate="2021-04-29T20:30:24.627" UserId="5726" Comment="124" />
  <row Id="25493" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8020" RevisionGUID="dfe045ec-7a06-499a-ab51-c4877c093f9f" CreationDate="2021-04-30T00:23:10.943" UserId="5604" Text="Artemis represents the untamed and wild, on the fringe of civilization. Animals are mortal and must die eventually as part of the cycle because humans must eat animals and sometimes animals must eat humans. She hunts because humans must eat but she kills within proscribed limits and boundaries.  Her actions support the cosmological order.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Orion like Artemis is wild and untamed but in a destructive way. He drinks, rapes, and kills just for fun, senseless killing, he is the uncontrolled extreme next to her. Apollo on the other hand, the product of Zeus' union with Metis, is committed to using his male and female sides to maintain the cosmological order [see the Homeric Hymn].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Orion in a union with Artemis could represent a threat to that order so he had to go, but if Apollo did the deed himself it would create conflict, so its better that Artemis do it. That is the wisdom Apollo acquires from Zeus' union with Metis, cunning. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is essentially a paraphrasing of Jenny Strauss Clay." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25494" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8021" RevisionGUID="87b7c6c6-5b75-4691-876e-ebe6fb0a66f1" CreationDate="2021-04-30T01:55:31.603" UserId="4667" Text="Random data point:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Émile Durkheim and Marcel Mauss ([_Primitive Classification_](https://monoskop.org/images/4/4d/Durkheim_Emile_Mauss_Marcel_Primitive_Classification_2nd_ed_1969.pdf) ~1903, trans. Rodney Needham 1963) says—&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A particular colour is attributed to each region and characterizes it. The north is yellow because, it is said, the light is yellow when the sun rises and sets; the west is blue because of the blue light that is seen at sunset. The south is red because it is the region of summer and fire, which is red. The east is white because it is the colour of the day. The upper regions are streaked with colours like the play of light among the clouds; the lower regions are black like the depths of the earth. As for the centre, the navel of the world, representative of all the regions, it is all the colours simultaneously.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Durkheim credits this information to Frank Hamilton Cushing (&quot;Outlines of Zuñi creation myths,&quot; _Annual Report of the Bureau of Ethnology_ &lt;b&gt;13&lt;/b&gt;, 1883).  This direction-to-color mapping exactly matches the quotation above from Dixon (1899), but my guess is that they were both paraphrasing the same meager source." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25495" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8022" RevisionGUID="8f6e3db2-66a3-479a-b6f8-aab6d4c413d5" CreationDate="2021-04-30T03:24:03.650" UserId="8027" Text="Is Krampus really pagan in origin and not medieval Christian? A lot of people say that he is pagan and of  Norse origin. A lot of people say that he is the son of Hel who is the goddess of Helheim in Norse mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But the problem here is that I can't find any reliable ancient source that specifically tells what Krampus's old Norse name is and what exactly is his role in Norse mythology. I can't find any Pre-Christian pagan source at all whether they are Greek, Norse, Celtic, Slavic, Mesopotamian, Egyptian, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, I'm trying to find a reliable historical Viking sagas account of Krampus and what exactly is his role in Norse mythology but I can't find any.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All I'm finding are hearsays of pagan folklore and pagan legend. Another problem is that there are also other sources that say Krampus isn't really of pagan origin but is actually of modern and medieval Christian origin like this source below here. I know that it isn't a source that came from a respected scholarly source but his arguments here are very sharp, critical, and very hard to ignore. The source below is what I am talking about:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://talesoftimesforgotten.com/2019/12/13/is-krampus-really-pagan/&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sources like these who claim that Krampus isn't really Pre-Christian pagan in origin but of modern and medieval Christian in origin make me even far more skeptical of Krampus's supposed pagan origin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what exactly is Krampus? Is he really Pre-Christian pagan or is he modern and medieval Christian?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Let me know your thoughts below.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25496" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="8022" RevisionGUID="8f6e3db2-66a3-479a-b6f8-aab6d4c413d5" CreationDate="2021-04-30T03:24:03.650" UserId="8027" Text="Is Krampus really pagan?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25497" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="8022" RevisionGUID="8f6e3db2-66a3-479a-b6f8-aab6d4c413d5" CreationDate="2021-04-30T03:24:03.650" UserId="8027" Text="|norse|mythohistory|demons|the-devil|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25500" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="8004" RevisionGUID="c68f31b1-382a-4e87-8daa-65140bd06ca8" CreationDate="2021-04-30T23:46:28.653" UserId="5726" Comment="124" />
  <row Id="25501" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6119" RevisionGUID="d7a33c87-c399-40ba-8c63-a01cf0f70526" CreationDate="2021-05-01T13:43:54.923" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; adjusted info" Text="**One More Wife**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To complicate the issue yet a little bit further, if we take Plato's dialogue *Kritias* into account, Poseidon actually has *three* wives, not just two. According to the description of the foundation of Atlantis in *Kritias*, Poseidon was married to a certain Kleïto [Cleïto] who bore him five sets of twin sons who ruled the land, which was named Atlantis after the eldest of these brothers, called Atlas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There may, however, be a way to look at it so that, in spite of the extremely high profile wedding unions assigned to Poseidon with each of these three figures, he is not necessarily polygamous. Indeed Ancient Greek culture, despite the philandering, was typically monogamous, as were its deities, these entities being an enhanced projection of said culture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kleïto is perhaps the least problematic wrinkle herein, since it is relatively easy to solve her involvement with Poseidon chronologically: she was simply his primordial wife, before he had met Amphitrite. Kleïto appears to have been mortal (both her parents are described simply as Autokhthones [Autochthons], &quot;Earth-Sprung&quot; people), and her death (likely in old age), as well as the cataclysmic destruction of Atlantis, are probably supposed to have occurred long before Poseidon's [second] wedding.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Amphitrite in Other Literature**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story of Beroe's marriage to Poseidon appears in no other place apart from Nonnus' epic *Dionysiaka*, which on many points quite evidently seeks to imitate certain styles and tropes of the much older epic of Homer's *Iliad*. A feature shared by *Kritias*, the *Dionysiaka* and the *Iliad* is that Amphitrite fails to appear in any of them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Out of thirty-three Nereids named in the *Iliad*, Amphitrite is *not* one of them, which is quite surprising considering Poseidon's prominence in the poem on the one hand while, on the other hand, there is the fact that obscure but similarly-named Nereids like Amphinome and Amphithoe are granted *their* own *Iliad* cameos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Amphitrite is mentioned very few times in Homer's *Odyssey*, indeed as a major sea-goddess but never as Poseidon's wife. Neither the *Iliad* nor the *Odyssey* say anything about the more famous offspring of Poseidon and Amphitrite, namely the merman Triton and the sea-nymph Rhode. Homer simply does not seem to know of such a relationship between this Nereid and the Sea-King.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We do know, though, that as early as Hesiod's *Theogony*, which is supposed to be contemporaneous with Homer, Amphitrite is in fact known to have been married to Poseidon and borne him the afore-named children. While Nonnus never mentions Amphitrite, Triton does appear a few times in the *Dionysiaka*. In every source which mentions his parentage, he is always the son of Poseidon and Amphitrite. Presumably we are to understand him the same way here although Nonnus does not explicitly provide us with any familial link between the merman sea-god and anyone else. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are perhaps three different ways of interpreting this. One is that Amphitrite does exist in the *Dionysiaka* (somewhere so far in the background that she receives zero airtime), has borne Triton to Poseidon at some point, but was never married to him. So when Poseidon first encounters Beroe, he is a (somewhat) eligible bachelor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Nuptial Terminology in the *Dionysiaka***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A second interpretation would recognise the manner in which language about marriage is used by Nonnus, for whom it is almost standard that a sexual encounter equals some sort of conjugal union, no matter how brief the interaction between the partners. Nor in fact does it seem to matter in several cases that the encounter is not consensual. Most of the time that Nonnus mentions a bride or a bridegroom, there is obviously no wedding ceremony that has been officiated nor would anyone understand the couple in question to be legally married on any level beyond the bodily consummation having transpired. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Often in the *Dionysiaka* even the act of abduction before this consummation is a &quot;wedding,&quot; such as when Zeus takes Europa to Crete (3.323-324) or transforms into an eagle to kidnap the Naiad Aigina [Aegina] (8.247). Him carrying these women off makes each of them into his bride (*nýmphe*). Similar “bridal” terminology occurs in Book 13 when Apollon [Apollo] steals the Naiad Kyrene [Cyrene] away to Libya. In Book 8, Hera, having learned of the secret affair between Zeus and Dionysos' [Dionysus'] mother Semele, in a speech to Semele herself, says that the Theban princess is claiming Zeus as her bridegroom (*nymphíos*).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Incidentally, during the competition between Poseidon and Dionysos for Beroe, a similar affair between the Sea-King and a different woman is referred to, by Dionysos himself, as a wedding. This is in Book 42, when Dionysos is telling Beroe that Poseidon once disguised himself as the river-god Enipeus in order to have his way with the Thessalian princess Tyro, who was in love with Enipeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After Dionysos loses Beroe to Poseidon, Eros consoles him by telling him about a different prospect elsewhere, namely the Phrygian huntress Aura, whom Dionysos encounters in the 48th and last book of the epic. This book begins with Dionysos going to a lot of trouble in order to marry the Thracian princess Pallene, whom he seems to promptly forget about shortly after the wedding.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The second half of the book is taken up with the sordid and grisly misadventure which Aura goes through when she gets raped in her sleep by Dionysos and gives birth especially painfully to his twin sons, one of whom she kills violently before being turned into a spring by Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All within this same book, four different characters are named as &quot;brides&quot; of Dionysos: Ariadne, whom he lost in his battle against his half-brother Perseus (in the previous book); Pallene, to whom he clearly seems to be legally wed; Nikaia [Nicaea], another Phrygian whom he had *also* raped in her sleep back in Book 16; and Aura, who, upon discovering her pregnancy, refers to herself as the god's bride, albeit in very negative terms, e.g. *dysgamē*, &quot;ill-wedded.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With Pallene most likely being mortal, it's possible that enough time has passed for her to grow old and die before Dionysos leaves Thrace to go find Aura in Phrygia. From this perspective, at any rate, marriage does not seem to be taken as seriously as one might otherwise expect, or its conventions are at least different. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nikaia is clearly still alive in Book 48, and, being from the same geographical region, she even helps Aura to give birth specifically because they are both victims of Dionysos forcing himself upon them. Towards the conclusion of all this Dionysos is &quot;triumphant and proud of his two Phrygian marriages, with the elder wife and the younger bride&quot;, i.e. Nikaia and Aura respectively. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With that, it is more plausible for Poseidon to actually be married to Amphitrite and Beroe at the same time. As loosely-held as that might make marriages here, however, it would in fact make Poseidon polygamous; and as with Dionysos and Pallene, the scene at the end of the contest between Poseidon and Dionysos does seem to be a full-on wedding.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Breaking Things Off**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There might yet be one more option. Divorce among the gods is not unheard-of. Zeus is the prime example in the *Theogony*, where he gets married six separate times before (sort of) settling down with Hera. In the *Dionysiaka*, Phaethon, the son of Helios and Klymene [Clymene], grows up with his parents in apparently the same home. In earlier works, however (e.g. Ovid's *Metamorphoses* and Euripides' *Phaethon*), it appears that Klymene, who at one point is wed to Helios, later leaves him for King Merops of Aithiopia [Ethiopia], in whose court Phaethon grows up, perhaps never having met his biological father before growing up.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for Helios, he, on some later occasion, is betrothed to Rhode, who is usually a daughter of Poseidon and Amphitrite. But Asclepiades, in one obscure source, says that *Helios* was her father, and presumably in that case she was not married to the Sun. It is not out of the question that Amphitrite had an affair with Helios, thus bearing him a child, but, as with previous examples, perhaps Asclepiades preserves here a tradition in which Helios was married to Amphitrite after she got a divorce from Poseidon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Almost all of the characters to whom Helios is ever said to have been married are Oceanids, and, as you note in your Question, Amphitrite is an Oceanid in at least one source. At any rate we do not require such a connection between Helios and Amphitrite in order for this sea-goddess to be divorced from Poseidon. Her marriage to the Sea-King could simply be over by the time that he is granted Beroe in *Dionysiaka* 43." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25502" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5754" RevisionGUID="78611582-6b66-4603-b519-8f767896eb1e" CreationDate="2021-05-02T10:03:25.440" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="25506" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8024" RevisionGUID="c7232833-f319-4276-a138-8fcc76c0c115" CreationDate="2021-05-04T09:14:33.177" UserId="7795" Text="Krampus is based in the Alps of Austria and Bavaria. I am not to sure if he is norse, maybe more of a local myth. Sure he looks a bit like Faun or a devil but in the alps there are other &quot;Schiachperchtn&quot; (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perchta) that show up in Winter to celebrate the passing of midwinter and fade away after 6th Janurary nowadays" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25508" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8025" RevisionGUID="3c531bbe-af0a-4339-a77c-579a6c23f75c" CreationDate="2021-05-05T10:37:40.790" UserId="8047" Text="I know viking means someone who goes on expeditions. I remember reading somewhere that there is a word either in old Norse or currently in Icelandic to mean wise/intelligent that etymologically means someone who's travelled a lot/been on many expeditions and the opposite would be someone who has not left home. I cannot find what word this is anymore and I'm starting to think I made this up. Any ideas? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25509" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="8025" RevisionGUID="3c531bbe-af0a-4339-a77c-579a6c23f75c" CreationDate="2021-05-05T10:37:40.790" UserId="8047" Text="Word to mean unwise/stupid coming from the idea of being untravelled?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25510" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="8025" RevisionGUID="3c531bbe-af0a-4339-a77c-579a6c23f75c" CreationDate="2021-05-05T10:37:40.790" UserId="8047" Text="|norse|etymology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25511" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8026" RevisionGUID="942b4181-e8bd-467c-b2fb-4359b9da1f1a" CreationDate="2021-05-05T11:41:44.683" UserId="7315" Text="The *Achille's Heel* folk motif, i.e. invulnerability except in one spot, is a very common one worldwide. It appears as motif number Z311 in Thompson's *Motif-Index of Folk-Literature*, where an incomplete list of attestations of the motif is given, ranging from Irish to African folklore, passing through Jewish, Eskimo and Siberian tales. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With such widespread folk motifs it is always hard to argue for a common (pre-historic?) origin, independent developments, or mutual influences. There is however a set of Indo-European myths concerning *imperfect invulnerability* which bear such striking similarities that they have led scholars to conjecture a common origin, or at least strong mutual influences. The tales of Greek *Achilles*, Norse *Sigurd* and *Balder*, and Ossetian *Soslan* belong to this category.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The last one in particular seems to be the link that brings the remaining three together, to the point that Fridrik Thordarson, in his paper *[Die Ferse des Achilleus‐ein skythisches motiv?][1]* (in German) proposes a Scythian (the Ossetians being descendents of the Scythians) origin of the myths of *Achilles* and *Sigurd*. At the same time, Georges Dumézil in his book *Loki* draws a very convincing parallel between the tales of the deaths of *Balder* and *Soslan*, and argues for a common Proto-Indo-European origin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also John Colarusso in his *[Peoples, Languages and Lore][2]* agrees on the similarities between the four myths. He writes on *Soslan* (North-West Caucasian *Sosruquo*):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He [*Sosruquo*] is born aflame from a rock and tempered by&#xD;&#xA;the god of the forge [...]. He is vulnerable in his knees or thighs, where he was held by the smith’s tongs, and in this localised soft spot he shows a close parallel with Greek *Achilles* and Norse *Sigurd*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And this is what he has to say on *Syrdon* (the Ossetian homologue of Norse *Loki*) who, much like the latter is responsible for the death of *Balder*, causes *Soslan*'s death by finding out his only weakness:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A figure restricted to the Ossetian corpus is that of *Syrdon*, [...] a trickster figure similar to Norse *Loki*. As *Loki* resents the gods for&#xD;&#xA;their glory and loftiness, so *Syrdon* is maddened by the fame and arrogance of the *Narts* [i.e. the Ossetian heroes]. [...] The *Narts* tolerate *Syrdon*’s mischief up to&#xD;&#xA;a point [i.e. the death of *Soslan*], just as the Norse gods tolerate *Loki*’s, up to a point [i.e. the death of *Balder*].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00397677208590646&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&amp;rct=j&amp;q=&amp;esrc=s&amp;source=web&amp;cd=&amp;ved=2ahUKEwjh4ZXvtbLwAhVxSxUIHWl7CJAQFjABegQIAxAD&amp;url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.routledgehandbooks.com%2Fpdf%2Fdoi%2F10.4324%2F9781351055628-3&amp;usg=AOvVaw2ymJ_JZGXRmwtpbA5z8Cba" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25512" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8027" RevisionGUID="1c6e249c-e36b-46e8-860c-06bdee400a3b" CreationDate="2021-05-05T12:37:32.883" UserId="7315" Text="You are probably thinking of Icelandic *[heimskur][1]* &quot;stupid, foolish&quot;, which comes from Old Norse *heimskr* &quot;foolish, silly; who has never been from home&quot; (from ON *heima* &quot;home&quot;). It appears frequently in Norse sagas, sometimes in the intensive form *allheimskr* &quot;very stupid&quot;. A famous instance of this is the saying *&quot;Engi er allheimskr, ef þegja má&quot;* (&quot;No one is a total fool, if one knows when to be silent&quot;) in the *Saga of Grettir the Strong*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am not aware of an opposite word relating wisdom with being well-travelled, though.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/heimskur" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25514" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8029" RevisionGUID="685abc23-421b-4d4c-a9b0-4fee5f5054f7" CreationDate="2021-05-07T23:07:57.407" UserId="2682" Text="I'm not finding any ancient sources that explicitly mention the issue, but there is a mediaeval text called the Third Vatican Mythographer, written in Latin, and using the Roman names of the gods, which does chime in, perhaps based on a genuinely ancient tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Ch. 9, §2 of the aforementioned work, Mercury (the Roman equivalent of Hermes), &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whose father was Jove [Zeus] and whose mother was Maia, was half&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mortal. But then Juno [Hera] put him to her own breasts and thus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; filled him with divine milk so that he might become immortal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In addition to this, the *First* Vatican Mythographer (117) repeats the story saying also that the reason Juno did this was because of how much she loved Mercury, to whom she also &quot;introduced... to the art of healing.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even more so than other Latin sources, however, the Vatican Mythographers have a tendency towards being chock-full of problems which render much of the information contained in them to be fairly suspect.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The idea of Hermes-Mercury having gained his immortality via Hera-Juno's breast-milk appears nowhere else that I have seen, and seems to be either a confusion or an imitation of the same story being told about how two other illegitimate sons of Zeus, namely Dionysos [Dionysus] and Herakles [Hercules], both born of mortal women, managed to shed *their* own mortality.    " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25515" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8030" RevisionGUID="dd5fd232-0ef4-478a-b9b9-80482db52440" CreationDate="2021-05-08T00:33:53.333" UserId="2682" Text="According to [this Answer](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/8029/2682) to [a Question](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/1724/2682) regarding whether the Greek messenger-god Hermes was born mortal or not, the Third Vatican Mythographer, a mediaeval Latin text, knows of a version of the childhood of Mercury (the Roman Hermes) in which the god became immortal after being suckled by his stepmother Juno (the Roman Hera).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This would be my first time encountering such a notion concerning relations between Hermes-Mercury and Hera-Juno. Moreover, the First Vatican Mythographer goes so far as to say that Juno breastfed Mercury because she loved him so much. Regarding the Vatican Mythographers, Kathleen O. Elliott and J.P. Elder say that &quot;one may fairly call them highly deceptive sources which should be used with much caution.&quot;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That being as it may, this is paralleled by the genuinely ancient myths in which Hera is tricked (by Hermes, no less) into breastfeeding her baby stepson Herakles [Hercules] and compelled by her husband Zeus to breastfeed her *adult* stepson Dionysos [Dionysus] (both of which illegitimate stepchildren she passionately loathes).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going by rather more recent writings, such as *The Greenhaven Encyclopedia of Greek and Roman Mythology* (2002), Don Nardo says, in the &quot;Hermes&quot; article of the encyclopedia, that&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; because of Hera's reputation for bringing grief to her husband's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lovers and their offspring, the young Hermes decided to get on the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; goddess's good side as quickly as possible. While still an infant (but&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a highly precocious one who could walk, reason, and so forth), Hermes,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; disguised as Ares, crawled into her lap and she breastfed him; that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; made Hermes her foster mother, which required that she treat him as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her own child.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This version of Hermes' childhood occurs online as well, such as on the [MythNerd](https://mythnerd.com/why-is-hermes-important/)&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; and [Learnodo-Newtonic](https://learnodo-newtonic.com/hermes-myths)&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; websites.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While it is completely new to me, it does admittedly sound very much like Hermes, but is there any actual ancient mythography in which anything of the sort takes place?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Is there an ancient (or even mediaeval) source that has Hermes assume the form of Ares in order to trick Hera into unwittingly adopting him via nursing?** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**And beyond the Vatican Mythographers (and modern myth-retellings), is there even a source claiming that Hermes was ever suckled by Hera, whether of her own initiative or otherwise?**   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. On the 1st page of the article &quot;A Critical Edition of the Vatican Mythographers&quot;, which is p. 189 of the *Transactions and Proceedings of the American Philological Association* Vol. 78 (1947, The Johns Hopkins University Press). The article runs from p. 189 through p. 207.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. Nardo, D. 2002. *The Greenhaven Encyclopedia of Greek and Roman Mythology*. Greenhaven Press, *a part of Gale, Cengage Learning*, USA, p. 98.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. Andy. 2021, &quot;Why is Hermes Important?&quot;, Myth Nerd, viewed 7 May 2021, https://mythnerd.com/why-is-hermes-important/&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;4. Rawat, A. 2021, &quot;10 Most Famous Myths Featuring the Greek God Hermes&quot;, Learnodo-Newtonic, viewed 7 May 2021, https://learnodo-newtonic.com/hermes-myths (marked as published 29 March 2021)&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25516" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="8030" RevisionGUID="dd5fd232-0ef4-478a-b9b9-80482db52440" CreationDate="2021-05-08T00:33:53.333" UserId="2682" Text="In what ancient source, if any, does the infant Hermes disguise himself as Ares?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25517" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="8030" RevisionGUID="dd5fd232-0ef4-478a-b9b9-80482db52440" CreationDate="2021-05-08T00:33:53.333" UserId="2682" Text="|greek|roman|source-request|hera|hermes|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25518" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="8030" RevisionGUID="f73d76e9-fe50-45f4-9718-a0aca8e08e60" CreationDate="2021-05-08T03:07:31.970" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; resolved some discrepancies" Text="According to [this Answer](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/8029/2682) to [a Question](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/1724/2682) regarding whether the Greek messenger-god Hermes was born mortal or not, the Third Vatican Mythographer, a mediaeval Latin text, knows of a version of the childhood of Mercury (the Roman Hermes) in which the god became immortal after being suckled by his stepmother Juno (the Roman Hera).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This would be my first time encountering such a notion concerning relations between Hermes-Mercury and Hera-Juno. Moreover, the First Vatican Mythographer goes so far as to say that Juno breastfed Mercury because she loved him so much. Regarding the Vatican Mythographers, Kathleen O. Elliott and J.P. Elder say that &quot;one may fairly call them highly deceptive sources which should be used with much caution.&quot;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That being as it may, this is paralleled by the genuinely ancient myths in which Hera is tricked (by Hermes, no less) into breastfeeding her baby stepson Herakles [Hercules] and compelled by her husband Zeus to breastfeed her *adult* stepson Dionysos [Dionysus] (both of which illegitimate stepchildren she passionately loathes).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going by rather more recent writings, such as *The Greenhaven Encyclopedia of Greek and Roman Mythology* (2002), Don Nardo says, in the &quot;Hermes&quot; article of the encyclopedia,&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; that&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; because of Hera's reputation for bringing grief to her husband's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lovers and their offspring, the young Hermes decided to get on the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; goddess's good side as quickly as possible. While still an infant (but&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a highly precocious one who could walk, reason, and so forth), Hermes,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; disguised as Ares, crawled into her lap and she breastfed him; that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; made her Hermes' foster mother, which required that she treat him as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her own child.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This version of Hermes' childhood occurs online as well, such as on the MythNerd&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; and Learnodo-Newtonic&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; websites.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While this is completely new to me, it does admittedly sound very much like Hermes, but is there any actual ancient mythography in which anything of the sort takes place?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Is there an ancient (or even mediaeval) source that has Hermes assume the form of Ares in order to trick Hera into adopting him via nursing?** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**And beyond the Vatican Mythographers (and modern myth-retellings), is there even a source claiming that Hermes was ever suckled by Hera, whether of her own initiative or otherwise?**   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. On the 1st page of the article &quot;A Critical Edition of the Vatican Mythographers&quot;, which is p. 189 of the *Transactions and Proceedings of the American Philological Association* Vol. 78 (1947, The Johns Hopkins University Press). The article runs from p. 189 through p. 207.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. Nardo, D. 2002. *The Greenhaven Encyclopedia of Greek and Roman Mythology*. Greenhaven Press, *a part of Gale, Cengage Learning*, USA, p. 98.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. Andy. 2021, &quot;Why is Hermes Important?&quot;, Myth Nerd, viewed 7 May 2021, https://mythnerd.com/why-is-hermes-important/&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;4. Rawat, A. 2021, &quot;10 Most Famous Myths Featuring the Greek God Hermes&quot;, Learnodo-Newtonic, viewed 7 May 2021, https://learnodo-newtonic.com/hermes-myths (marked as published 29 March 2021)&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25522" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8032" RevisionGUID="f6cc96f1-a774-4226-983f-1c3d5beb56c2" CreationDate="2021-05-09T23:22:46.800" UserId="7315" Text="The lost poem *Hermes* by Eratosthenes seems to be the source for the myth of Hera suckling Hermes. In his paper *[Theodulus' Ecloga and Mythographus Vaticanus 1][1]*, Winfried Bühler, referring to this particular version of the myth, says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This is indeed a rare version. In ancient literature, it occurs only as an *aition* of the origin of the Milky Way: Mercurius - usually it is Hercules - was after his birth brought to Juno who nursed him without knowing who the baby was. When she discovered it, she pushed the sucking baby away. Thus the milk poured out. The testimonies are: Achilles *Isag*. 24, *Commentariorum in Aratum Reliquiae* (ed. Maass, 1898) p. 55, 14; anon., *Isag. in Aratum*, p. 95, 23 Maass; Hyginus *Astr*. 2.43, p. 80, 12 Bunte. Achilles and Hyginus attest the story for Eratosthenes (fr. 2 Powell [probably from the poem *Hermes*]; cf. also *Eratosthenis catasterismorum reliquiae*, rec. C. Robert, 1878, 198). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The classical texts he cites as testimonies are the *Isagoge ad Arati Phænomena* by Achilles Tatius (unfortunately I could only find [this][2] Ancient Greek edition by Ernst Maass); and *De Astronomica* by Hyginus. Indeed, in the latter we find the following creation myth of the Milky Way ([translation in English][3] by Mary Grant):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  There is a certain circular figure among the constellations, white in color, which some have called the Milky Way. Eratosthenes says that Juno, without realizing it, gave milk to the infant Mercury, but when she learned that he was the son of Maia, she thrust him away, and the whiteness of the flowing milk appears among the constellations. Others have said that Hercules was given to Juno to nurse when she slept. When she awoke, it happened as described above. Others, again, say that Hercules was so greedy that he couldn't hold in his mouth all the milk he had sucked, and the Milky Way spilled over from his mouth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding the detail of Hermes disguising himself as Ares in order to trick Hera, I am not aware of any ancient or medieval source, but it might help that it is also mentioned in [this chapter][4] of *Mythical Trickster Figures* by William G. Doty. Perhaps a dive into that book's bibliography might bring up the source.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.jstor.org/stable/25010566?seq=1&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://archive.org/details/Maass1898/page/n1/mode/2up&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://topostext.org/work/207&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://yale.imodules.com/s/1667/images/gid6/editor_documents/yacol_fall_course_readings/flick_readings/doty-a_lifetime_of_trouble-making_hermes_as_trickste.pdf?sessionid=da094776-613f-4c13-8a9a-11772c5bbd8e&amp;cc=1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25524" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6480" RevisionGUID="690a254c-5460-4fc4-b751-ae765b4ce9b1" CreationDate="2021-05-10T14:02:45.413" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="25530" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8033" RevisionGUID="38e0e969-fb5e-435c-a9db-39c02cfa6d32" CreationDate="2021-05-11T07:15:25.577" UserId="2682" Text="Hera&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of the three sisters Hera is the only one regarding whom I have found mention of her direct involvement in a narrated fight scene.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Dionysos' War in India**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Book 36 of Nonnus' *Dionysiaca*,&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; the Olympian deities square off against one another in a battle during the war waged by the young wine-god Dionysos [Dionysus] against his kinsman King Deriades of India. Lines 28-82 thereof relate the confrontation between Hera, on the one hand, who supports Deriades; and, opposing her on the other hand, Artemis, who is there to back up her own half-brother Dionysos. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Armed with a bow and arrows, Artemis fires everything she's got at Hera. Before the first arrow reaches the queen of the gods, however, Hera has fashioned herself a makeshift shield by grabbing a nearby cloud and compressing &quot;it around her shoulders&quot;. When Artemis's volley is over, the cloud is &quot;covered thick with arrows all over.&quot; Nonetheless &quot;the arrows were stuck in the dark cloud, but the veil was untorn...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Hera picked up a rough missile of the air, a frozen mass of hail,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; circled it and struck Artemis with the jagged mass. The sharp stony&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lump broke the curves of the bow. But the consort of Zeus did not stop&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the fight there, but struck Artemis flat on the skin of the breast,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and Artemis, smitten by the weapon of ice, emptied her quiver upon the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ground.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hera then spends the majority of the rest of the passage belittling and disparaging Artemis, who, &quot;discomfited and drunken with fear&quot;, is then briskly swept off the battlefield by her twin brother Apollon [Apollo].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like much of the rest of the *Dionysiaca*, Nonnus is pointedly imitating Homer's *Iliad* with this scene and the whole battle in general, which he has based on the fight among the Olympians in *Iliad* 20 &amp; 21.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Trojan War**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Artemis cuts a much more pathetic figure in Homer, and her only role in the *Iliad* seems to be showing up so that her stepmother can slap her around. *Iliad* 20.70 sets the scene simply by saying that Artemis “stood forth” against Hera while other deities are about to clash. We eventually return to the two goddesses in the next book, where Apollon reveres their uncle Poseidon too much to fight against him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Artemis calls Apollon out on this, since her twin had previously boasted about facing off against the sea-god. But no sooner has she done this than Hera tells her off for daring to step to the queen of the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;But if that's your idea, to vie with me in strength, then let this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; teach you who is stronger.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; So saying, she seized the other's wrists in her left hand, snatched&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Artemis' bow and quiver from her shoulders and, laughing all the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; while, boxed her on the ears with the weapons as she writhed,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; scattering the winged arrows. Artemis fled weeping from her... She&#xD;&#xA;&gt; took her tears with her, but left the bow and arrows where they lay.&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hera vs Herakles**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to *Iliad* 5.392, &quot;Hera, too felt the agony, when the mighty Herakles [*Hercules*]... pierced her right breast with his triple-barbed arrow.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The A scholion on this line elaborates that this occurred during Herakles' vengeance campaign against his cousin King Neleus of Pylos, a battle in which Neleus was supported by certain of the gods, including his own father Poseidon, his uncle Hades and his aunt Hera. Herakles was, in his turn, supported by *his* own father Zeus and his half-sister Athena. Hades and Hera were both grievously wounded by Herakles, and Neleus and nearly all of his sons were killed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Presumably supplying an alternate occasion for Hera's violent encounter with her super-strong stepson, Ptolemy Hephaestion says &quot;that Hera was wounded on her right by Herakles&quot; while she was fighting on the side of the triple-bodied giant Geryones when the hero came to rustle the giant's cattle as his tenth task. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond sustaining an injury, however, we have no details about how Hera fared in whichever battle it is she's supposed to have contended with the great hero. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Gigantomachy**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a rather more passive role, Hera appears in Apollodorus' *Library* 1.6.2 where she gets used as a pretty bizarre form of bait in a battle in which, for a change, Hera and Herakles are fighting on the same side.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;During the Giants' attack on the home of the gods on Mt Olympos [Olympus], one of their leaders, Porphyrion attacked Herakles and Hera. For whatever reason, &quot;Zeus instilled him with a passion for Hera, and when he tore her robes and would have raped her, she called for help, whereat Zeus smote him with a thunderbolt and Herakles shot him dead with an arrow.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Based on that text alone is doesn't sound much like Hera was even *in* the actual fray to begin with, but apart from mythography we also have artistic testimony to her participation in the Giants' War. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An Attic red-figure amphora, currently in the Musée du Louvre in Paris, France, depicts this war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Herakles, Porphyrion &amp; Hera][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;The above scene is a detail thereof,&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; described as follows by Theoi.com, wherein&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;the lust-filled Porphyrion seizes the goddess Hera, ripping her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dress. The goddess' spear is cast awry and her Amazon-crescent shield&#xD;&#xA;&gt; seems to slip from her fingers. Porphyrion, draped in a panther skin&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and holding a torch, turns to face Zeus (above, not shown). The god&#xD;&#xA;&gt; aims his lightning bolt at the giant. To the left Heracles also comes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to the rescue, aiming an arrow at the giant.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hera is generally otherwise attacking Giants in portrayals of the battle between them and the Olympians.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Hera vs Phoitos][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;Here (above) she is, on an Attic red-figure kylix (now in the Antikensammlung Berlin),&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; about to skewer the Giant Phoitos with a spear.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Caere Gigantomachy Amphora][3]][3]  &#xD;&#xA;On the right-hand side edge of this sketch (above)&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; of a black-figure amphora from Caere (now at the Louvre), the Giant Harpolykos is being stabbed with a knife by Hera.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Only bits and pieces of the goddess survive from the East Frieze of the Altar of Zeus at Pergamon where she is portrayed in a chariot with her daughter Hebe as horses and vehicle are trampling one of the Gigantes beneath them. According to the Second Vatican Mythographer, Juno (the Roman equivalent of Hera) rode in a chariot and used a spear, although this is not in the context of any fight scene. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On p. 455 of *Early Greek Myth: A Guide to Literary and Artistic Sources*,&lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt; Timothy Gantz describes a Pontic amphora (now at the British Museum in London) which shows &quot;Herakles squared off in single combat against a woman armed with spear and shield who is... very likely Hera, sporting a goat horn extending from her cap&quot; or from her head (apparently an attribute of Juno Sospita in Etruscan and early Roman art).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Demeter&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of what I have found, the closest to Demeter appearing explicitly in a fight scene in writing is in the late Roman poem by Claudian, namely the *Rape of Proserpina*, in which Ceres (the Roman Demeter) heads out in search of her abducted daughter Proserpina (the Roman version of Persephone). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Coming to the slopes of Mt Aetna on the island of Sicily, she seeks out timber out of which to fashion flaming torches to light her way, at which point, &quot;with angry hand she brandishes her axe, ready to strike Jove himself.&quot; As she is all alone in the scene, however, no such dramatic occurrence takes place and indeed all she does is create her torches before setting off on her journey. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So once again it falls to the ancient artwork to provide us with the pertinent information. The same amphora at the Louvre which displays Hera being attacked by Porphyrion also contains Demeter assailing a Giant with a spear and, as it happens, with a flaming torch.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Demeter Gigantomachy][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;She is the female figure at the centre of this image,&lt;sup&gt;7&lt;/sup&gt; looking like she's about to use the butt of her spear to pommel the Giant upon whom she's descending while gripping a lit torch in her left hand (which, depending on how one might interpret it, perhaps she has just used to set the Giant's hair on fire).&lt;/sub&gt;    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Virtually nothing remains of the goddess from the large Gigantomachy sculpture on Zeus's Pergamon Altar, but Francis Queyrel interprets some bits and pieces as Demeter using a pair of torches against a Giant named Erysikhthon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Homeric Hymn to Demeter addresses her as Khrysaoros, meaning She &quot;Of the Golden Blade,&quot; likely referring to a curved sword or a scythe. Theoi.com claims that the goddess &quot;was depicted in scenes of the... War of the Giants... wielding a sword, which may have been the golden blade; or the blade might instead be a golden sickle which she used to harvest the first crops of wheat.&quot; I have not seen, however, any ancient depiction of Demeter with such an implement.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As it turns out, by the way, the original DC-Poison-Ivy character in Greek mythology, would actually be Dionysos rather than Demeter. The goddess is never described using vines and plants to attack opponents, but this is standard when it comes to Dionysos. As a matter of fact, uncannily rapid-growth ivy (maybe not necessarily the poison variety thereof) is one of his favourite weapons of choice.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hestia&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The extremely domestic deity among the three sisters in view here, rather than Hera, would be Hestia. As opposed to simply fire in any form, she is the personification of the decidedly non-violent and closely controlled flames used to cook food and to warm the house.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She barely features in any myths at all and the only certainty we seem to have about her participation in the Titans' War is Hesiod's statement in *Theogony* 667 that all of Kronos's children, &quot;both male and female,&quot; fought in the war against their own father. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unsurprisingly, Hestia does not feature in any battle-scene artwork like her sisters do.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Notes**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. All *Dionysiaca* quotes taken from pp. 5-7 of Nonnos: *Dionysiaca*, with an English Translation by W.H.D. Rouse; Mythological Introduction &amp; Notes by H.J. Rose; &amp; Notes on Text Criticism by L.R. Lind, in Three Volumes—Vol. III: Books XXXVI-XLVIII, 1942. Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA, &amp; William Heinemann Ltd, London. &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. Kline, A.S. 2009. &quot;BkXXI:383-525 The Immortals quarrel,&quot; Homer: The *Iliad*, Poetry in Translation, viewed 11 May 2021, https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad21.php#anchor_Toc239246377&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. Abstracted from&gt; Ravaisson, M.F.F. 1875. *Monuments grecs: Une amphore peinte du Musée du Louvre représentant le combat des dieux et des géants*. L'association pour l'encouragement des études grecques en France.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;4. Image sourced from Atsma, A. 2000-2017. &quot;K4.3 Hera &amp; Giant Phoetus,&quot; Theoi, viewed 11 May 2021, https://www.theoi.com/Gallery/K4.3.html&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;5. Source: Wikia.org. &quot;Harpolykos,&quot; Greek Mythology Wiki, viewed 11 May 2021, https://greekmythology.wikia.org/wiki/Harpolykos&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;6. Gantz, T. 1993. *Early Greek Myth: A Guide to Literary and Artistic Sources.* The Johns Hopkins University Press, Baltimore &amp; London.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;7. Abstracted from&gt; ArchaiOptix. 2011. *Suessula Painter ARV 1344 1 gigantomachy (01).jpg*, Wikimedia Commons, viewed 11 May 2021, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Suessula_Painter_ARV_1344_1_gigantomachy_(01).jpg&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/FXGrD.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/QzGVl.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ZGSCH.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/KW6r8.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25531" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8034" RevisionGUID="7c97401c-f697-4c7f-9431-cbb4c88f01eb" CreationDate="2021-05-11T14:21:51.730" UserId="8077" Text="I came across this in a Cornish folktale. Girl appears to be telling wild stories (about fairies). Wise woman tests to see if it is true: she has to crook her arm and repeat the story. If it is untrue she won't be able to unbend her arm. I've never come across this motif before: has anyone else?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25532" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="8034" RevisionGUID="7c97401c-f697-4c7f-9431-cbb4c88f01eb" CreationDate="2021-05-11T14:21:51.730" UserId="8077" Text="Crooked/uncrooked arm as sign of truth-telling. Has anyone come across this in any folklore? My example is from a Cornish folktale" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25533" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="8034" RevisionGUID="7c97401c-f697-4c7f-9431-cbb4c88f01eb" CreationDate="2021-05-11T14:21:51.730" UserId="8077" Text="|folklore|superstition|british|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25536" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5857" RevisionGUID="e6fc0d12-903b-445d-a3d5-91cde81dcc7d" CreationDate="2021-05-12T02:07:10.663" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="25537" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8035" RevisionGUID="222059a9-f66a-41f4-a1d8-6a1d870dc95c" CreationDate="2021-05-12T04:36:51.113" UserId="2682" Text="**A Few Heads Taller Than the Tallest?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Assuming that the rest of the Greek deities were about the same size as Aphrodite, then the Homeric Hymn to Aphrodite strongly suggests that they were something like abnormally large or tall humans, or, at the very least, as tall as the house of a shepherd-prince in Dardania a generation before the Trojan War.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The hymn tells the story of the conception of Aineias [Aeneas], the Dardanian prince who later escaped the destruction of Troy to eventually settle in Italy, and how his parents—the mortal prince Ankhises [Anchises] and the goddess Aphrodite—met when, inflamed with desire for Ankhises, Aphrodite came to his homestead on the slopes of Mt Ida in Troas.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even though the hymn is sure to point out that Ankhises is himself as shapely and attractive as one of the gods, nonetheless Aphrodite takes special care (in Line 82) to take the form of &quot;an unwed maiden in size of length and mien&quot; because, apparently, her real height would freak him out. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But even so, as soon as Ankhises lays eyes upon her, he is so bedazzled that he offers her worship as a goddess. Convinced that she must be one of the Olympians, he rattles off a list of different goddesses' names, including Aphrodite, but the disguised deity manages to convince him that she is merely a Phrygian princess. After they have slept together in his house, Aphrodite wakes up taller, her head touching the building's roof-beam, and Ankhises does freak out, saying that he knew she had to be a goddess (Lines 172-190).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going by a different interpretation, however, one might argue that in this scene Aphrodite *is* deliberately shape-shifting, in order to overawe her new lover, so that her being as tall as the house need not mean that this is her true height and appearance either, since she can (perhaps?) look like anything she wants to. In accounts of the goddess's interactions with other mortals, there doesn't seem to be any particularly noteworthy size-difference between her and them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**And Taller Still...**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ares, another lover of Aphrodite's, presents a puzzling addition to the question from a very weird thing that Homer says about him in the *Iliad*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Poseidon, the King of the Sea, had consorted with his own&#xD;&#xA;&gt; granddaughter Iphimedeia, and she bore him a pair of gigantic twin&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sons named Otos [Otus] and Ephialtes. These kids, whose stepfather was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; named Aloeus, and after whom they were called the Aloadai [Aloads],&#xD;&#xA;&gt; grew by nine inches every month. By the time they were nine years old&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they were each nine cubits wide and nine fathoms tall. In more modern&#xD;&#xA;&gt; parlance, they were each 18 feet (roughly 6m) wide and 54 feet&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (approx. 16m) tall.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; ... [T]he twins once&#xD;&#xA;&gt; kidnapped Ares, who thus went missing for thirteen months, during&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which no other deity, so it seems, knew where he was. Heriboia was the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; second wife of Aloeus, and she somehow found out that her husband's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; giant stepsons had Ares. She fed Hermes this bit of intelligence, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he came in stealth-mode to rescue Ares. The Aloadai had clapped Ares&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in &quot;cruel bonds&quot; and shoved him into a bronze urn, within which he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; almost died...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; before Hermes came and stole him out of there. Doing what these boys&#xD;&#xA;&gt; did to Ares must have required the imposition of a prodigiously&#xD;&#xA;&gt; incredible amount of brute strength. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; I base this on the fact that in the same poem which gives us the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; twins' measurements we are told that Ares' body, when he fell down,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; covered seven *plethra* of land, which is something like 6.3 square&#xD;&#xA;&gt; kilometres (almost 4 square miles). This comes from *Iliad*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 21.405-410, the measurements contained therein having been translated variously into English as &quot;seven roods&quot; (A.T. Murray, 1924), &quot;seven&#xD;&#xA;&gt; acres&quot; (R. Lattimore, 1951) and &quot;over an acre&quot; (A.S. Kline's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [PoetryInTranslation&#xD;&#xA;&gt; website](https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad21.php#anchor_Toc239246377)),&#xD;&#xA;&gt; all of which are significantly smaller than 6km&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; or 4&#xD;&#xA;&gt; miles&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; but the least of which is still hundreds of times&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bigger than the Aloadai are supposed to have been. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In comparison to Ares, they might as well have been a pair of ants! We&#xD;&#xA;&gt; could perhaps explain this away by assuming that Ares, like his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cousins Otos and Ephialtes, continued to gradually expand over the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; years so that he would have been significantly smaller back when they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; had nabbed him some generations earlier. Or that he only grew so&#xD;&#xA;&gt; extensively large on battlefields during wartime, such as in *Iliad*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 21, which takes place in the thick of combat during the Trojan War.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*~ From &quot;Kidnapping the God of War,&quot; part of [my Answer to another Question](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/5208/2682)*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Having said all of that, none of the rest of Ares's appearances in the *Iliad* seem to envision an entity who is the size of a small town, or yet bigger than the Trojan battlefield! &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Indeed, the beginning of the scene in which Ares is felled by Athena wouldn't make very much sense if he were actually that size, since he is busy stripping off the armour of a dead warrior when the war-goddess encounters him. (Interestingly, though, Periphas, the unfortunate soldier being denuded of his armour by Ares, is twice referred to as *pelórion*, which could mean, literally, &quot;gigantic,&quot; and is otherwise translated as &quot;vast&quot; and &quot;huge&quot;.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only other explanation I can think of for Ares' body covering that amount of land when he falls is that we are perhaps to understand it as, rather, him having been thrown so hard by the force of Athena's blow that he crashes miles away from the original location of their fight (like in a superhero movie). Nonnus' understanding of this seems somewhat different from that. In *Dionysiaca* 36.14, in a clear allusion to *Iliad* 21, he refers to the deity as Ares Heptapélethros, &quot;Seven-Plethron Ares,&quot; as though Homer's seven plethra are a more personal attribute of the war-god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Furthermore, in Book 11 of Homer's *Odyssey*, the shade of the giant Tityos [Tityus], being punished in the Underworld, covers an area of *nine* plethra, and virtually every ancient author who refers to the myth (e.g. Hyginus, Virgil, Ovid and Propertius), basing his mythography on *Odyssey* 11, clearly understands this to mean the size of the giant himself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Visual Evidence&#xD;&#xA;-------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Perhaps the Same Size...***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both in the rest of the battle-scene in *Iliad* 21 and in early pottery paintings, Ares appears to be the same size as the other gods, at least, often depicted next to Aphrodite, such as on the Attic red-figure amphora—at the Musée du Louvre, Paris—depicting the Giants' War, in which image Ares rides in a chariot next to this goddess.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Herakles vs Kyknos][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;As compared to mortals in artwork, there is, similarly, nothing especially distinctive about Ares' dimensions. Here (above),&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; in another piece of ceramic art at the Louvre, the god shows up in support of his son Kyknos [Cycnus], who is engaged in a duel with the hero Herakles [Hercules], who in turn is being backed up by Athena. (In this piece, it so happens, the two mortal combatants are actually a little bit *bigger* than their accompanying deities.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But there are two considerations that complicate the use of ancient artwork as a determinant of the issue at hand. The one is that, for the most part, whether in vase paintings or in sculpture, all characters from the mythology tend to be depicted as roughly the same size, even, perhaps most confusingly, in scenes like the aforementioned Giants' War.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Louvre Gigantomachy detail][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;Like Ares and Aphrodite, the mortal Herakles appears in that piece too, together with the Gigantes whom he is helping the Olympians to fight against. Everyone in the picture looks like an ordinary human being, per, e.g. this detail of a sketch of the painting (see above),&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; featuring the two Dioskouroi [Dioscuri] (at least one of whom at this point is still a mortal man), along with the goddess Eris, and four Gigantes.      &#xD;&#xA;       &#xD;&#xA;[![Agrios vs the Moirai][3]][3]  &#xD;&#xA;In the friezes at Zeus' Pergamon Altar, from a couple of centuries later than that amphora, the only distinguishing feature about the physique of the Gigantes is that they are now less humanoid on account of the animal parts which they now sport, typically the huge snakes that have replaced their legs.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It might simply be that, on account of available space in the media being used, it simply wasn't practicable to depict the characters to scale, not even for the Aloadai, whose staggering specs we're provided with as early as Homer, but who appear about three centuries later on an Attic red-figure bell krater (in the Antikenmuseum Basel) as bigger neither than the goddess Artemis nor even her deer. In other vase paintings housed at the Louvre, the even more colossal Tityos is pretty much the same size as the Titaness Leto and her children Apollon [Apollo] and Artemis. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Several Orders of Magnitude Greater**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sculpture, particularly in relief, provides with us with the second concern about artwork relating to this question. We do have numerous examples of sculptures whose subjects appear in a range of sizes in the same scene, and it is clearly not a matter of depth of field. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Pompeii Aphrodite Marble Relief][4]][4]  &#xD;&#xA;This Athenian marble relief (above)&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; is dated by Getty.edu as coming from the same century as the Attic Gigantomachy amphora at the Louvre [*in the 2nd image in this Answer*]. The Getty website describes it as Aphrodite with some worshippers of hers. (It looks doubtful to me that *this* Aphrodite could fit standing up straight in Ankhises' house.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Glyptothek Votive Relief][5]][5]  &#xD;&#xA;There are also examples with more dramatic variety among the subjects within the same scene, such as in this rural votive relief now at the Glyptothek in Munich (see above),&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; showing a god and goddess being worshipped by people of different sizes. Presumably the bigger a person is the more important they are in the scene, hence the deities being the largest figures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Raimund Wünsche elaborates on the piece on p. 118 of *Glyptothek, Munich: Masterpieces of Greek and Roman Sculpture*,&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; saying that the god (enthroned to the extreme right of the image) is Asklepios [Asclepius] and that the goddess, standing in front of him, is his daughter Hygieia (who I notice to be significantly shorter than Asklepios, only half his height or thereabouts). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like Herakles, Asklepios was born a mortal and only became a god after his death as a man, which only serves to complicate the matter some more, since it raises the further question—if we say that the gods are in fact gigantic—of whether apotheosis also constitutes levelling up in size.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the end of it all, it seems quite rather inconclusive to me. The sculptures seem to display the idea that the gods are essentially whatever size they need to be such as the situation may require and that perhaps, just like DukeZhou has said in his Answer, they were not really conceived of as being a specific size.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Afterword: *What Size is a Hero?***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Taking it back to the written word, in Book 3 of Ovid's Metamorphoses, we hear the tale of the mortal hunter Actaeon and how he happens upon the virgin goddess Diana (i.e. Artemis) while she is taking a bath in the woods. In the scene, Diana is being attended by a bevy of nymphs who also make up her hunting party.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Lines 181-182, Diana &quot;stood head and shoulders taller than&quot; her companions. This might have been a little bit more helpful if we also had an unambiguous metric for the size of nymphs relative to humans, or if Actaeon's height happened to have been mentioned. But even if we did have that last bit of info, we also know that Actaeon, like Herakles, Kyknos and Asklepios, is himself closely related to gods. The last three are each the son of a god while Actaeon is Diana's own great-nephew, being a grandson of her twin brother Apollo. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The vast majority of characters in Greco-Roman myth, in fact, are children or close and direct descendants of the gods. Should *this* affect what size these semi-divine mortals are, and, connected therewith, how we might answer this Question? Ancient authors (e.g. Pausanias, Plutarch, and Quintus Smyrnaeus) might have thought so, since, according to them, many people after the Age of Heroes imagined the ancient heroes to have been humongous. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In her book *The First Fossil Hunters: Paleontology in Greek and Roman Times*, Adrienne Mayor points out that giant bones found in ancient times became sacred relics revered as the remains of certain Trojan War heroes like Akhilleus [Achilles] and Aias [Ajax], thus believed to have been several times bigger than the average modern human.&lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt; So even if a goddess *was* the same size as one of them, she would still be literally gigantic in comparison to what we might consider normal human size today.       &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Notes**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. Image sourced from MythAgora. &quot;Ares,&quot; MythAgora.com Greek Mythology, viewed 11 May 2021, https://mythagora.com/bios/ares.html&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. Abstracted from&gt; Ravaisson, M.F.F. 1875. Monuments grecs: Une amphore peinte du Musée du Louvre représentant le combat des dieux et des géants. L'association pour l'encouragement des études grecques en France.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. Image sourced from Getty Villa Museum. &quot;Relief with Aphrodite and Worshippers,&quot; Getty.edu, viewed 11 May 2021, https://www.getty.edu/art/exhibitions/aphrodite/relief.html&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;4. Image sourced from User:Bibi Saint-Pol. 2007. *Relief rural votive place Glyptothek Munich 206.jpg*, Wikimedia Commons, viewed 11 May 2021, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Relief_rural_votive_place_Glyptothek_Munich_206.jpg&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;5. Wünsche, R. 2007. *Glyptothek, Munich: Masterpieces of Greek and Roman Sculpture*, Translated from the German by Rodney Batstone. C.H. Beck.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;6. For a full catalogue of references, see &quot;Appendix 2. Ancient Testimonia&quot;, which makes up pp. 260-282 of Mayor, A. 2000. *The First Fossil Hunters: Paleontology in Greek and Roman Times*. Princeton University Press, Princeton, NJ.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/HV5z2.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/YfUdN.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/OD0H6.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/9uJLC.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/CT1do.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25538" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4873" RevisionGUID="05489159-7753-4e52-922c-d4d45400249f" CreationDate="2021-05-12T19:00:25.060" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="25539" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="8029" RevisionGUID="0c2ad490-4c9a-4258-913a-f5a7d89c15ae" CreationDate="2021-05-13T01:58:02.170" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="I'm not finding any ancient sources that explicitly mention the issue, but there is a mediaeval text called the Third Vatican Mythographer, written in Latin, and using the Roman names of the gods, which does chime in, perhaps based on a genuinely ancient tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Ch. 9, §2 of the aforementioned work, Mercury (the Roman equivalent of Hermes), &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whose father was Jove [Zeus] and whose mother was Maia, was half&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mortal. But then Juno [Hera] put him to her own breasts and thus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; filled him with divine milk so that he might become immortal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In addition to this, the *First* Vatican Mythographer (117) repeats the story saying also that the reason Juno did this was because of how much she loved Mercury, whom she also &quot;introduced... to the art of healing.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even more so than other Latin sources, however, the Vatican Mythographers have a tendency towards being chock-full of problems which render much of the information contained in them to be fairly suspect.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The idea of Hermes-Mercury having gained his immortality via Hera-Juno's breast-milk appears nowhere else that I have seen, and seems to be either a confusion or an imitation of the same story being told about how two other illegitimate sons of Zeus, namely Dionysos [Dionysus] and Herakles [Hercules], both born of mortal women, managed to shed *their* own mortality.    " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25540" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="8025" RevisionGUID="facf15bc-b002-4bfc-ad33-3f59b32fcce4" CreationDate="2021-05-13T07:55:46.810" UserId="8047" Comment="deleted 241 characters in body; edited title" Text="I remember reading somewhere that there is a word in old Norse for unwise/foolish that etymologically refers to someone who's not travelled or left home. Any ideas?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25541" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="8025" RevisionGUID="facf15bc-b002-4bfc-ad33-3f59b32fcce4" CreationDate="2021-05-13T07:55:46.810" UserId="8047" Comment="deleted 241 characters in body; edited title" Text="Word to mean unwise/foolish coming from the idea of being untravelled?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25542" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="8034" RevisionGUID="694907ca-2a94-48b5-af3b-af0ba9b26426" CreationDate="2021-05-13T22:02:01.947" UserId="5726" Comment="added clarification comment to question" Text="I came across this in a Cornish folktale. Girl appears to be telling wild stories (about fairies). Wise woman tests to see if it is true: she has to crook her arm and repeat the story. If it is untrue she won't be able to unbend her arm. I've never come across this motif before: has anyone else?&#xD;&#xA;&#xA;It's called The Fairy Widower, and it's in the collection Botanical Tales by Lisa Schneidau, published by The History Press." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25543" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4874" RevisionGUID="9c6d4de1-4e9a-4cb5-a729-7b35633c0c22" CreationDate="2021-05-14T04:06:00.650" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="25544" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8036" RevisionGUID="daa9fe0c-62a8-4b98-94a4-ce85bbc785d6" CreationDate="2021-05-14T13:07:17.207" UserId="8112" Text="Not sure if this is the best site to ask this question, but what high school subjects would generally cover mythology and creation myth? I have heard that possibly ancient history or literature in English might do, any suggestions on this? I understand that while studying a specific foreign language some mythology may be included for that specific culture, but I mean mythology from multiple cultures to potentially look at similarities and differences." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25545" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="8036" RevisionGUID="daa9fe0c-62a8-4b98-94a4-ce85bbc785d6" CreationDate="2021-05-14T13:07:17.207" UserId="8112" Text="What high school subject would mythology &amp; creation myth be covered in?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25546" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="8036" RevisionGUID="daa9fe0c-62a8-4b98-94a4-ce85bbc785d6" CreationDate="2021-05-14T13:07:17.207" UserId="8112" Text="|comparative|mythohistory|creation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25547" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8037" RevisionGUID="8c783d27-22b7-4479-9965-558926c9f0c1" CreationDate="2021-05-14T18:34:45.550" UserId="398" Text="It depends. In high school, I took a Humanities course that covered Graeco-Roman and Norse mythologies. I don't know how common they are, though. You'll get it sometimes in English classes, such as when they cover works that have mythology in them. Finally, language courses will often cover them. I know Latin did, but I'm unaware of what e.g. Chinese or Japanese high school courses." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25548" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="8033" RevisionGUID="af9d96fd-c854-465b-a00c-468dc9b7b9ba" CreationDate="2021-05-15T20:08:43.533" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="Hera&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of the three sisters Hera is the only one regarding whom I have found mention of her direct involvement in a narrated fight scene.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Dionysos' War in India**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Book 36 of Nonnus' *Dionysiaca*,&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; the Olympian deities square off against one another in a battle during the war waged by the young wine-god Dionysos [Dionysus] against his kinsman King Deriades of India. Lines 28-82 thereof relate the confrontation between Hera, on the one hand, who supports Deriades; and, opposing her on the other hand, Artemis, who is there to back up her own half-brother Dionysos. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Armed with a bow and arrows, Artemis fires everything she's got at Hera. Before the first arrow reaches the queen of the gods, however, Hera has fashioned herself a makeshift shield by grabbing a nearby cloud and compressing &quot;it around her shoulders&quot;. When Artemis's volley is over, the cloud is &quot;covered thick with arrows all over.&quot; Nonetheless &quot;the arrows were stuck in the dark cloud, but the veil was untorn...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Hera picked up a rough missile of the air, a frozen mass of hail,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; circled it and struck Artemis with the jagged mass. The sharp stony&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lump broke the curves of the bow. But the consort of Zeus did not stop&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the fight there, but struck Artemis flat on the skin of the breast,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and Artemis, smitten by the weapon of ice, emptied her quiver upon the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ground.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hera then spends the majority of the rest of the passage belittling and disparaging Artemis, who, &quot;discomfited and drunken with fear&quot;, is then briskly swept off the battlefield by her twin brother Apollon [Apollo].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like much of the rest of the *Dionysiaca*, Nonnus is pointedly imitating Homer's *Iliad* with this scene and the whole battle in general, which he has based on the fight among the Olympians in *Iliad* 20 &amp; 21.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Trojan War**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Artemis cuts a much more pathetic figure in Homer, and her only role in the *Iliad* seems to be showing up so that her stepmother can slap her around. *Iliad* 20.70 sets the scene simply by saying that Artemis “stood forth” against Hera while other deities are about to clash. We eventually return to the two goddesses in the next book, where Apollon reveres their uncle Poseidon too much to fight against him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Artemis calls Apollon out on this, since her twin had previously boasted about facing off against the sea-god. But no sooner has she done this than Hera tells her off for daring to step to the queen of the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;But if that's your idea, to vie with me in strength, then let this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; teach you who is stronger.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; So saying, she seized the other's wrists in her left hand, snatched&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Artemis' bow and quiver from her shoulders and, laughing all the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; while, boxed her on the ears with the weapons as she writhed,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; scattering the winged arrows. Artemis fled weeping from her... She&#xD;&#xA;&gt; took her tears with her, but left the bow and arrows where they lay.&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hera vs Herakles**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to *Iliad* 5.392, &quot;Hera, too felt the agony, when the mighty Herakles [*Hercules*]... pierced her right breast with his triple-barbed arrow.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The A scholion on this line elaborates that this occurred during Herakles' vengeance campaign against his cousin King Neleus of Pylos, a battle in which Neleus was supported by certain of the gods, including his own father Poseidon, his uncle Hades and his aunt Hera. Herakles was, in his turn, supported by *his* own father Zeus and his half-sister Athena. Hades and Hera were both grievously wounded by Herakles, while Neleus and nearly all of his sons were killed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Presumably supplying an alternate occasion for Hera's violent encounter with her super-strong stepson, Ptolemy Hephaestion says &quot;that Hera was wounded on her right by Herakles&quot; while she was fighting on the side of the triple-bodied giant Geryones when the hero came to rustle the giant's cattle as his tenth task. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond sustaining an injury, however, we have no details about how Hera fared in whichever battle it is she's supposed to have contended with the great hero. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Gigantomachy**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a rather more passive role, Hera appears in Apollodorus' *Library* 1.6.2 where she gets used as a pretty bizarre form of bait in a battle in which, for a change, Hera and Herakles are fighting on the same side.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;During the Giants' attack on the home of the gods on Mt Olympos [Olympus], one of their leaders, named Porphyrion, attacked Herakles and Hera. For whatever reason, &quot;Zeus instilled him [*Porphyrion*] with a passion for Hera, and when he tore her robes and would have raped her, she called for help, whereat Zeus smote him with a thunderbolt and Herakles shot him dead with an arrow.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Based on that text alone is doesn't sound much like Hera was even *in* the actual fray to begin with, but apart from mythography we also have artistic testimony to her participation in the Giants' War. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An Attic red-figure amphora, currently in the Musée du Louvre in Paris, France, depicts this war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Herakles, Porphyrion &amp; Hera][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;The above scene is a detail thereof,&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; described as follows by Theoi.com, wherein&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;the lust-filled Porphyrion seizes the goddess Hera, ripping her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dress. The goddess' spear is cast awry and her Amazon-crescent shield&#xD;&#xA;&gt; seems to slip from her fingers. Porphyrion, draped in a panther skin&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and holding a torch, turns to face Zeus (above, not shown). The god&#xD;&#xA;&gt; aims his lightning bolt at the giant. To the left Heracles also comes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to the rescue, aiming an arrow at the giant.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hera is generally otherwise attacking Giants in portrayals of the battle between them and the Olympians.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Hera vs Phoitos][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;Here (above) she is, on an Attic red-figure kylix (now in the Antikensammlung Berlin),&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; about to skewer the Giant Phoitos with a spear.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Caere Gigantomachy Amphora][3]][3]  &#xD;&#xA;On the right-hand side edge of this sketch (above)&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; of a black-figure amphora from Caere (now at the Louvre), the Giant Harpolykos is being stabbed with a knife by Hera.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Only bits and pieces of the goddess survive from the East Frieze of the Altar of Zeus at Pergamon where she is portrayed in a chariot with her daughter Hebe as their horses and vehicle are trampling one of the Gigantes beneath them. According to the Second Vatican Mythographer, Juno (the Roman equivalent of Hera) rode in a chariot and used a spear, although this is not in the context of any fight scene. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On p. 455 of *Early Greek Myth: A Guide to Literary and Artistic Sources*,&lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt; Timothy Gantz describes a Pontic amphora (now at the British Museum in London) which shows &quot;Herakles squared off in single combat against a woman armed with spear and shield who is... very likely Hera, sporting a goat horn extending from her cap&quot; or from her head (apparently an attribute of Juno Sospita in Etruscan and early Roman art).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Demeter&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of what I have found, the closest to Demeter appearing explicitly in a fight scene in writing is in the late Roman poem by Claudian, namely the *Rape of Proserpina*, in which Ceres (the Roman Demeter) heads out in search of her abducted daughter Proserpina (the Roman version of Persephone). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Coming to the slopes of Mt Aetna on the island of Sicily, she seeks out timber from which to fashion flaming torches to light her way, at which point, &quot;with angry hand she brandishes her axe, ready to strike Jove [*i.e. Zeus*] himself.&quot; As she is all alone in the scene, however, no such dramatic occurrence takes place and indeed all she does is create her torches before setting off on her journey. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So once again it falls to the ancient artwork to provide us with the pertinent information. The same amphora at the Louvre which displays Hera being attacked by Porphyrion also contains Demeter assailing a Giant with a spear and, as it happens, with a flaming torch as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Demeter Gigantomachy][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;She is the female figure at the centre of this image,&lt;sup&gt;7&lt;/sup&gt; looking like she's about to use the butt of her spear to pommel the Giant upon whom she's descending while gripping a lit torch in her left hand (which, depending on how one might interpret it, perhaps she has just used to set the Giant's hair on fire).&lt;/sub&gt;    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Virtually nothing remains of the goddess from the large Gigantomachy sculpture on Zeus's Pergamon Altar, but Francis Queyrel interprets some bits and pieces as Demeter using a pair of torches against a Giant named Erysikhthon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Homeric Hymn to Demeter addresses her as Khrysaoros, meaning She &quot;Of the Golden Blade,&quot; likely referring to a curved sword or a scythe. Theoi.com claims that the goddess &quot;was depicted in scenes of the... War of the Giants... wielding a sword, which may have been the golden blade; or the blade might instead be a golden sickle which she used to harvest the first crops of wheat.&quot; I have not seen, however, any ancient depiction of Demeter with such an implement.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As it turns out, by the way, the original DC-Poison-Ivy character in Greek mythology, would actually be Dionysos rather than Demeter. The goddess is never described using vines and plants to attack opponents, but this is standard when it comes to Dionysos. As a matter of fact, uncannily rapid-growth ivy (maybe not necessarily the poison variety thereof) is one of his favourite weapons of choice.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hestia&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The extremely domestic deity among the three sisters in view here, rather than Hera, would be Hestia. As opposed to simply fire in any form, she is the personification of the decidedly non-violent and closely controlled flames used to cook food and to warm the house.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She barely features in any myths at all and the only certainty we seem to have about her participation in the Titans' War is Hesiod's statement in *Theogony* 667 that all of Kronos's children, &quot;both male and female,&quot; fought in the war against their own father. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unsurprisingly, Hestia does not feature in any battle-scene artwork like her sisters do.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Notes**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. All *Dionysiaca* quotes taken from pp. 5-7 of Nonnos: *Dionysiaca*, with an English Translation by W.H.D. Rouse; Mythological Introduction &amp; Notes by H.J. Rose; &amp; Notes on Text Criticism by L.R. Lind, in Three Volumes—Vol. III: Books XXXVI-XLVIII, 1942. Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA, &amp; William Heinemann Ltd, London. &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. Kline, A.S. 2009. &quot;BkXXI:383-525 The Immortals quarrel,&quot; Homer: The *Iliad*, Poetry in Translation, viewed 11 May 2021, https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad21.php#anchor_Toc239246377&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. Abstracted from&gt; Ravaisson, M.F.F. 1875. *Monuments grecs: Une amphore peinte du Musée du Louvre représentant le combat des dieux et des géants*. L'association pour l'encouragement des études grecques en France.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;4. Image sourced from Atsma, A. 2000-2017. &quot;K4.3 Hera &amp; Giant Phoetus,&quot; Theoi, viewed 11 May 2021, https://www.theoi.com/Gallery/K4.3.html&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;5. Source: Wikia.org. &quot;Harpolykos,&quot; Greek Mythology Wiki, viewed 11 May 2021, https://greekmythology.wikia.org/wiki/Harpolykos&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;6. Gantz, T. 1993. *Early Greek Myth: A Guide to Literary and Artistic Sources.* The Johns Hopkins University Press, Baltimore &amp; London.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;7. Abstracted from&gt; ArchaiOptix. 2011. *Suessula Painter ARV 1344 1 gigantomachy (01).jpg*, Wikimedia Commons, viewed 11 May 2021, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Suessula_Painter_ARV_1344_1_gigantomachy_(01).jpg&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/FXGrD.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/QzGVl.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ZGSCH.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/KW6r8.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25549" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="7972" RevisionGUID="d531d490-d363-4bd9-899a-965ca7902792" CreationDate="2021-05-16T01:00:40.110" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="25550" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8038" RevisionGUID="7adf2a3c-6332-4ec2-9dda-998dac1e1c25" CreationDate="2021-05-16T04:04:32.447" UserId="158" Text="I’ve always heard that Kronus (Titan of the Harvest) and Chronos (God/Personification of Time) are often confused by modern people but were actually considered two distinct beings in Ancient Greece. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the Wikipedia article about Kronus lists many prominent ancient authors (Cicero, Plutarch, etc) who also considered him to be associated with time: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; During antiquity, Cronus was occasionally interpreted as Chronos, the personification of time. The Roman philosopher Cicero (1st century BCE) elaborated on this by saying that the Greek name Cronus is synonymous to chronos (time) since he maintains the course and cycles of seasons and the periods of time, whereas the Latin name Saturn denotes that he is saturated with years since he was devouring his sons, which implies that time devours the ages and gorges.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Greek historian and biographer Plutarch (1st century CE) asserted that the Greeks believed that Cronus was an allegorical name for χρόνος (time). […] Proclus (5th century CE), the Neoplatonist philosopher, makes in his Commentary on Plato's Cratylus an extensive analysis on Cronus; among others he says that the &quot;One cause&quot; of all things is &quot;Chronos&quot; (time) that is also equivocal to Cronus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Indeed, the article indicates that writers from multiple eras considered them to be the same, from Greek (Plutarch, above) to Roman (*His association with the &quot;Saturnian&quot; Golden Age eventually caused him to become the god of &quot;time&quot;*) to the Renaissance (*…the identification of Cronus and Chronos gave rise to &quot;Father Time&quot; wielding the harvesting scythe*).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What that article does not mention is any counter-arguments from ancient sources: it doesn’t provide any specific sources that describe them explicitly as two distinct deities. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So if a bunch of Greeks considered Kronus and Chronos to be the same being, and the Romans did too, and the people of the Renaissance did too… who didn’t? Is there some other document that specifically delineates them as being separate? Where did this idea that Kronus the Titan is NOT associated with time come from?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found one comment online that indicated that the Orphic Greeks were the ones who insisted that they were different beings, but again it didn’t provide any specific sources. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25551" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="8038" RevisionGUID="7adf2a3c-6332-4ec2-9dda-998dac1e1c25" CreationDate="2021-05-16T04:04:32.447" UserId="158" Text="Which specific ancient sources did NOT consider Kronus and Chronos to be the same being?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25552" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="8038" RevisionGUID="7adf2a3c-6332-4ec2-9dda-998dac1e1c25" CreationDate="2021-05-16T04:04:32.447" UserId="158" Text="|greek|roman|titans|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25553" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="8038" RevisionGUID="72e46a58-7b27-4944-8ff8-06e6da2f7b35" CreationDate="2021-05-16T04:16:34.793" UserId="158" Comment="added 185 characters in body" Text="I’ve always heard that Kronus (Titan of the Harvest) and Chronos (God/Personification of Time) are often confused by modern people but were actually considered two distinct beings in Ancient Greece. Multiple answers on this very site mention this point.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the Wikipedia article about Kronus lists many prominent ancient authors (Cicero, Plutarch, etc) who also considered him to be associated with time: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; During antiquity, Cronus was occasionally interpreted as Chronos, the personification of time. The Roman philosopher Cicero (1st century BCE) elaborated on this by saying that the Greek name Cronus is synonymous to chronos (time) since he maintains the course and cycles of seasons and the periods of time, whereas the Latin name Saturn denotes that he is saturated with years since he was devouring his sons, which implies that time devours the ages and gorges.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Greek historian and biographer Plutarch (1st century CE) asserted that the Greeks believed that Cronus was an allegorical name for χρόνος (time). […] Proclus (5th century CE), the Neoplatonist philosopher, makes in his Commentary on Plato's Cratylus an extensive analysis on Cronus; among others he says that the &quot;One cause&quot; of all things is &quot;Chronos&quot; (time) that is also equivocal to Cronus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Indeed, the article indicates that writers from multiple eras considered them to be the same, from Greek (Plutarch, above) to Roman (*His association with the &quot;Saturnian&quot; Golden Age eventually caused him to become the god of &quot;time&quot;*) to the Renaissance (*…the identification of Cronus and Chronos gave rise to &quot;Father Time&quot; wielding the harvesting scythe*).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What that article does not mention is any counter-arguments from ancient sources: it doesn’t provide any specific sources that describe them explicitly as two distinct deities. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So if a bunch of Greeks considered Kronus and Chronos to be the same being, and the Romans did too, and the people of the Renaissance did too… who didn’t? Is there some other document that specifically delineates them as being separate? It can’t just be the slight difference in spelling, right, not with so many ancient sources specifically saying they were the same? If spelling was more important than direct sources, we’d be treating Genghis Khan and Chinggis Kan as two different people. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So where did this idea that Kronus the Titan is explicitly NOT associated with time come from?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;EDIT: I found one comment online that indicated that the Orphic Greeks were the ones who insisted that they were two different beings, while “mainstream” Greeks treated them as one, but again it didn’t provide any specific sources. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25554" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8039" RevisionGUID="3674cacc-04a7-4d3c-b880-6af7ce19cc90" CreationDate="2021-05-16T05:32:59.900" UserId="1148" Text="What is the origin and ontology of the evil in Yazidism (knowing that Melek Taus is good angel)?&#xD;&#xA;thanks." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25555" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="8039" RevisionGUID="3674cacc-04a7-4d3c-b880-6af7ce19cc90" CreationDate="2021-05-16T05:32:59.900" UserId="1148" Text="Ontology of the evil in Yazidism?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25556" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="8039" RevisionGUID="3674cacc-04a7-4d3c-b880-6af7ce19cc90" CreationDate="2021-05-16T05:32:59.900" UserId="1148" Text="|evil|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25557" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="8039" RevisionGUID="63ccf390-4073-449c-896e-1c5a2fc2c616" CreationDate="2021-05-17T04:14:54.180" UserId="2682" Comment="added some background information" Text="In the Yazidi religion there is an angel called Melek Taus, the &quot;Peacock Angel,&quot; who in other faiths, such as Islam and Christianity, is considered to be the fallen angel who became the Devil, known by various other names in either example, and thought in some interpretations to be the source of evil in the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Yazidism, however, Melek Taus is said to have repented and become a good angel. With that being the case, what is the origin and ontology of the evil in Yazidism?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25558" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="8039" RevisionGUID="63ccf390-4073-449c-896e-1c5a2fc2c616" CreationDate="2021-05-17T04:14:54.180" UserId="2682" Comment="added some background information" Text="Wherre does evil come from in Yazidism?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25559" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="8039" RevisionGUID="027649d9-b709-463d-8395-a2d32b63dffb" CreationDate="2021-05-17T04:20:11.590" UserId="2682" Comment="deleted 4 characters in body" Text="In the Yazidi religion there is an angel called Melek Taus, the &quot;Peacock Angel,&quot; who in other faiths, such as Islam and Christianity, is considered to be the fallen angel who became the Devil, known by various other names in either example, and thought in some interpretations to be the source of evil in the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Yazidism, however, Melek Taus is said to have repented and become a good angel. With that being the case, what is the origin and ontology of evil in Yazidism?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25560" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8040" RevisionGUID="d5c8629a-e604-4da9-8070-3e100886693f" CreationDate="2021-05-17T15:41:36.117" UserId="8124" Text="Here is how I would Interpret the absence of his penis.  I really see this as a depiction of successful grief.  Now it's important to note that Isis revives Osiris, but after conceiving Horus, Osiris goes and becomes the God of the underworld, ruling over the dead.  Does this count as a resurrection?  It's common among other resurrection myths from the region, as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But Isis runs around Egypt, gathering all of the pieces she can find.  This is what we do when we lose someone this close to us!  Of course, no matter how we surround ourselves with their belongings, no matter how we strive to engage in activities that reminds us of our lost loves, we can never actually be with them again, hold them, kiss them, make love to them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think you're onto something, with the fact that the penis represents the ability to reproduce.  It's a symbol of the future, as well.  Remove it before reproduction and the bloodline dies.  In some versions of the myth, the phallus she makes is vegetable, a reed or a cucumber.  In most versions, it isn't described, it's more magical.  She somehow managed to conceive his son through a magical phallus, maybe one that wasn't even there corporeally.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what does conception represent, here?  If we continue interpreting the story through a lens of grief, I'd say it represents the final stage of grief, acceptance.  That is, Isis finds a way to lay hold of the future, even without the physical presence of her dear husband.  She finds a way to move forward, and as she does, she finds herself accompanied by a new form of him, a falcon God.  This new form, of course, isn't Osiris himself, she'll never have him back.  But he is always watching, from above.  Watching over her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I find it beautiful.  Full disclosure: I recently lost somebody very close to me, and I've honestly just discovered that there are very many good stories which can be quite helpfully interpreted through the lens of grief.  I'm sure there are many other, perfectly valid, ways to interpret this story." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25561" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="8039" RevisionGUID="fc6dd554-32ed-4f6f-b17b-c6f91814c28b" CreationDate="2021-05-17T15:56:20.870" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected some details" Text="In the Yazidi religion there is an angel called Melek Taus, the &quot;Peacock Angel,&quot; who in other faiths, such as Islam and Christianity, is understood as the equivalent of the fallen angel who became the Devil, known by various other names in either example, and thought in some interpretations to be the source of evil in the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Yazidism, however, Melek Taus is known as a good angel and an agent of God. With that being the case, what is the origin and ontology of evil in Yazidism?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25562" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8041" RevisionGUID="b13e7496-109b-458a-900c-f30c668bee04" CreationDate="2021-05-17T18:55:24.823" UserId="398" Text="Plutarch and Cicero were writing several hundred years after the earliest Greek poetry describing Cronus and Chronus. You can't really use what authors so late thought to argue what earlier authors thought.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The question is also a little backwards. If Chronus and Cronus were later inflations, how could anyone before possibly have said that they were different? You can only deny an idea once the idea has come into existence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what can you do to tell? Easy. Are there texts in which χρόνος (*khronos*) and κρόνος (*kronos*) both appear yet aren't interachangable? This is super easy to answer. You'll see both words appear in Homer and Hesiod, and yet neither *ever* call the father of Zeus *khronos*. When we see *khronos* in Homer and Hesiod, it always refers to time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Theogony, Hesiod describes the becoming of Cronus and his consumption of his children, but Hesiod *never* calls Kronus *khronos* and never says that he has anything to do with time. Moreover, the one time Hesiod uses *khronos*, it is in reference to actual time:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ὣς φέρετ᾽ ἂμ πέλαγος **πουλὺν χρόνον** (190)  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;they were swept away over the main **for a long time**&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover, if you look at the Theoi page about [Kronos](https://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Khronos.html), despite their editorializing, you do not get a clear connection between the two *until* Cicero. (Their understanding of that Pindar passage is shaky at best.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Your analogy of Ghenghis/Chinggis Khan is also off the mark. That name is a transliteration into English (and other languages) of a foreign name. It's a real person with a name in a tongue that is not their own. Meanwhile, [*khronos*](https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dxro%2Fnos) is a normal Greek word. There is no transliteration going on." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25563" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="8041" RevisionGUID="723e22f2-7668-4063-866e-9d79d6ba633e" CreationDate="2021-05-17T23:18:08.227" UserId="398" Comment="deleted 25 characters in body" Text="Plutarch and Cicero were writing several hundred years after the earliest Greek poetry describing Cronus and Chronus. You can't really use what authors so late thought to argue what earlier authors thought.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The question is also a little backwards. If Chronus and Cronus were later inflations, how could anyone before possibly have said that they were different? You can only deny an idea once the idea has come into existence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So what can you do to tell? The answer is to find the texts in which χρόνος (*khronos*) and κρόνος (*kronos*) both appear yet aren't interachangeable.  You'll see both words in Homer and Hesiod, and yet neither *ever* call the father of Zeus *khronos*. When we see *khronos* in Homer and Hesiod, it always refers to time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Theogony, Hesiod describes the becoming of Cronus and his consumption of his children, but Hesiod *never* calls Kronus *khronos* and never says that he has anything to do with time. Moreover, the one time Hesiod uses *khronos*, it is in reference to actual time:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ὣς φέρετ᾽ ἂμ πέλαγος **πουλὺν χρόνον** (190)  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;they were swept away over the main **for a long time**&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover, if you look at the Theoi page about [Kronos](https://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Khronos.html), despite their editorializing, you do not get a clear connection between the two *until* Cicero. (Their understanding of that Pindar passage is shaky at best.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Your analogy of Ghenghis/Chinggis Khan is also off the mark. That name is a transliteration into English (and other languages) of a foreign name. It's a real person with a name in a tongue that is not their own. Meanwhile, [*khronos*](https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dxro%2Fnos) is a normal Greek word. There is no transliteration going on." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25565" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="8039" RevisionGUID="5f49d7f8-e9e1-4b98-a1a7-e101beb8ad50" CreationDate="2021-05-18T12:53:24.017" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected spelling" Text="Where does evil come from in Yazidism?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25566" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2294" RevisionGUID="a1b0b8d4-0a38-4ba6-be2f-0f90f3d89ce6" CreationDate="2021-05-19T16:22:38.287" UserId="1241" Comment="added 3 characters in body" Text="**Why is the Devil also known as Lucifer (and other names) three-faced?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To understand this symbolic meaning of Dante in his *Canto XXXIV*, we have to have a basic understanding of the beliefs of the Catholic Church.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First of all, the devil was a murderer and the father of lies from the beginning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. - [John 8:44][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We have all heard of the expression about someone being two-faced:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[Definition of two–faced for English Language Learners][2]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;not honest or sincere&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;saying different things to different people in order to get their approval instead of speaking and behaving honestly&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Far worse is the Devil to Dante than someone simply two-faced, thus he imagines the Devil as having three faces. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another aspect of this symbolic meaning is Lucifer's desire to be like God and to be worshiped as such. The God of Catholics is known as the [Holy Trinity][3] composed of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, or &quot;one God in three Divine Persons&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - **In this three-face appearance of Satan, Dante is showing us the Evil One's desire to mock the very image of God Himself as if he could take his place!**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Whether you call him Satan, Lucifer, or Mephistopholes, he’s a beast with even more faces than he has names. Over the past five centuries, artists have variously depicted the devil as a fanged, horned demon; as an armored, Apollo-like army leader; and as a tailor of Nazi uniforms. - [The Changing Face Of Satan, From 1500 To Today][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An analysis of *Canto XXXIV* reveals a few tidbits of Dante's thinking in regards to Judas, Brutus, and Cassius:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;One who betrays one’s benefactor comes closest to betraying God directly. Thus, the ultimate sinner, Judas Iscariot, was a man who betrayed both simultaneously, for his benefactor was Jesus Christ.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Since spiritual concerns must, in the end, outweigh temporal ones, **Judas has committed the greater sin, and his head, rather than his legs, feels the constant chewing of Lucifer’s teeth.** However, the fact that **Brutus and Cassius suffer a punishment only slightly less harsh** demonstrates Dante’s belief that church and state play equally important roles, each in its own sphere. Throughout Inferno, Dante has expressed the view that church and state should remain separate but equal. Now, Dante finds an arrangement for the final circle of Hell that both completes his vision of the moral hierarchy and makes one last, vivid assertion of his politics.  [Analysis: Canto XXXIV][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Satan tricephalos-tonguesticker, with fiery crown or hair, holding the Serpent, on the amazing 12th century façade at Tuscania (Viterbo).][6]][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Satan tricephalos-tonguesticker, with fiery crown or hair, holding the Serpent,&#xD;&#xA;on the amazing 12th century façade at Tuscania (Viterbo).][7]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208%3A44&amp;version=KJV&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/two%E2%80%93faced&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.fastcodesign.com/3034309/the-changing-face-of-satan-artistic-depictions-of-the-devil-1500-to-today&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.sparknotes.com/poetry/inferno/section13.rhtml&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/vaKsc.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.beyond-the-pale.org.uk/hell.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25567" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8042" RevisionGUID="63a5f357-1dd9-479f-b6ca-d5d7513162a7" CreationDate="2021-05-20T19:01:15.717" UserId="8134" Text="We were given this puzzle in class and i have no idea, any help would be appreciated" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25568" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="8042" RevisionGUID="63a5f357-1dd9-479f-b6ca-d5d7513162a7" CreationDate="2021-05-20T19:01:15.717" UserId="8134" Text="What country is related to a phenomenon which is related to Cronus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25569" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="8042" RevisionGUID="63a5f357-1dd9-479f-b6ca-d5d7513162a7" CreationDate="2021-05-20T19:01:15.717" UserId="8134" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25570" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8043" RevisionGUID="d4cc84ea-c0d3-43bc-ac71-2f56952c531b" CreationDate="2021-05-20T21:58:33.567" UserId="5806" Text="Cronus (Saturn) and Jupiter merge, causing the Bethlehem star phenomenon.&#xD;&#xA;That said, Bethlehem is in Palestine. &#xD;&#xA;This is probably the answer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25571" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="8043" RevisionGUID="6fb24d14-0705-4ce1-9dbe-34cff3d691a8" CreationDate="2021-05-20T22:06:16.173" UserId="5806" Comment="added 64 characters in body" Text="Cronus (Saturn) and Jupiter merge, causing the Bethlehem star phenomenon.&#xD;&#xA;That said, Bethlehem is in Palestine. &#xD;&#xA;This is probably the answer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://earthsky.org/human-world/was-the-christmas-star-real&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25577" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3194" RevisionGUID="f1eec371-988b-4e98-8e8b-79e0cb4fb33e" CreationDate="2021-05-21T21:02:05.180" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="25578" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5312" RevisionGUID="90f2de85-2b90-48dc-901c-58a73e9014e2" CreationDate="2021-05-22T07:06:35.743" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="25579" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7563" RevisionGUID="7fe3d015-45c3-4b53-b514-18b2c5afe110" CreationDate="2021-05-22T15:40:10.110" UserId="398" Comment="Removed unncessary personal information," Text="1. The fact that there are so many similarities between Korean and Tamil, up to 500 words according to researchers with the exact same sounds and meanings too, there could be more but these words have less similarity... &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. Queen Heo-Hwang-ok was cleary stated to have travelled via ship on a journey by sea (not possible between North India and South Korea but definitely possible from South India - Tamil Nadu to South Korea)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. She is said to be from Ayuta, a “distant kingdom across the sea”, but the name doesn’t correspond to the name of any country or city from that time period in India or any other country.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. The Indian government (situated in North India) don't have any records of there being any such city, country from that time period&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;5. If you ask any Tamil person, usually above the age of 50 they'll tell you that present day Kanyakumari was called Ayuta in the past, unfortunately as of writing this (August 8th 2020) I searched everywhere and there's no written record of this :(&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;6. Heo-Hwang-ok or 'Suriratna' I have no idea where the name Suriratna came from but she was also called 'Seembavalam' - which is undoubtedly Tamil&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;7. Lastly the only thing which backed the belief that Heo-Hwang-ok was from Ayodhya in North India is the fact that Ayodhya reassembles Ayuta, even this... as the Indian government said, did not exist during Heo-Hwang-ok's time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another thing which is unsettling is the fact that the memorial for Queen Heo-Hwang-ok is in Ayodhya so thousands of South Koreans may be going to the wrong place to trace back and pay respects to their ancestry&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm leaning towards queen Heo-Hwang-ok being of Tamil decent for the above reasons, I hope that was helpful." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25581" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8045" RevisionGUID="ea73889a-c4cd-43b5-b02f-b0db538d52b2" CreationDate="2021-05-23T19:56:27.100" UserId="8143" Text="Perhaps the age of three years in these cloven-hoofed animals is a reflection of the fact that at this age they are past puberty, yet not fully grown.  Capable of bearing young, but not completely mature.  Close to a certain &quot;purity&quot;, but valuable for their birthing properties as well.  And it would not be a sacrifice if it were not valuable.&#xD;&#xA;And the days of fasting are 40, about six weeks, as no human would be able to endure more than that.  (Jesus also fasted for 40 days and 40 nights.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story of Abraham, whom God wanted out of Sumeria for practical as well as moral reasons, and Isaac, is the story of God's desire that human sacrifices cease.  It cannot be interpretated any other way.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25582" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8046" RevisionGUID="373f974b-9589-43a1-af80-14bb856a7e9f" CreationDate="2021-05-25T06:38:40.657" UserId="8147" Text="one of the plants was a seaweed from the Persian gulf and the other was Ephedra from the top of the Himalaya mountains! he actually constructed a diving suit to obtain the sea weed and an oriental plant with alkaloid tips sounds like Ephedra! I think his Demigod genetics could account for his long life. plus his Love for the Goddess Inanna" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25583" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8047" RevisionGUID="488536ae-f642-4ca9-bb60-b8bff49ed49b" CreationDate="2021-05-25T21:39:37.957" UserId="5504" Text="Is there a story behind this painting of a man fishing in the air off the side of mountain?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/k7WEV.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25584" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="8047" RevisionGUID="488536ae-f642-4ca9-bb60-b8bff49ed49b" CreationDate="2021-05-25T21:39:37.957" UserId="5504" Text="What is he fishing for?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25585" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="8047" RevisionGUID="488536ae-f642-4ca9-bb60-b8bff49ed49b" CreationDate="2021-05-25T21:39:37.957" UserId="5504" Text="|japanese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25586" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8048" RevisionGUID="287ab9f6-b7ae-46b7-809f-1763fb3a5aec" CreationDate="2021-05-26T06:54:34.147" UserId="5806" Text="The question is: &#xD;&#xA;&quot;Which specific ancient sources did NOT consider Kronus and Chronos to be the same being?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a Greek who has been taught Ancient Greek, i can assure you that modern Greek are not the same thing, ancient ones are like a foreign language to most of us. But let's go to the point. Some things remail same or similar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kronus =  ΚΡΟΝΟΣ = the planet (and obviously the father of Zeus)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Chronus = ΧΡΟΝΟΣ = time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;we say ΧΙΜΑΙΡΑ (Chimera)&#xD;&#xA;X sounds like &quot;He&quot; in Greek, that's why in English they use Ch instead of K.&#xD;&#xA;K sounds the same. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you can see there is only one difference. The fist letter. And it is unfortunate, that they sound somewhat the same.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Copy paste ΚΡΟΝΟΣ ΧΡΟΝΟΣ in google translate in greek and press voice button to hear them. If you see gibberish instead of greek letters, encode your browser to UTF-18.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the most reliable source that define ΚΡΟΝΟΣ and Chronos as two different things, is... well... the Greek language itself.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25587" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8049" RevisionGUID="1d29397c-e27d-48d0-9070-5109cd77d926" CreationDate="2021-05-26T08:44:46.100" UserId="5511" Text="This is Chinese, not Japanese. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The handwriting is too squiggly for me to read the middle characters but I think it says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;高山 High Mountain&#xD;&#xA;??  ??&#xD;&#xA;三石 Three Rocks&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Searching by these characters I found other renderings with the same artist seal signature:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This page][2] had the following explanation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Maybe it seems silly to go fishing in the mountains, but we all need a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; place to get away and think.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In this painting the man does not expect to catch fish, but rather is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; there to think and contemplate his life, or find solutions to any&#xD;&#xA;&gt; problems he might have, and just get away from the real world for a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; while.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; This painting is inspired by the story of a gifted philosopher and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; scholarly man named Yan Zi Ling who was called to service by Emperor&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Liu Che during the Han Dynasty. Yan Zi Ling did not want to take a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; position of authority in the government, fearing that holding such&#xD;&#xA;&gt; power, he would become corrupt.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Even though he was a wise, talented, and honorable man, he knew that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; service in the imperial court could corrupt even the most ethical&#xD;&#xA;&gt; person. He felt so strongly about preserving his own integrity and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dignity that he decided that it would be better to live in exile than&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to become another corrupt official.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; For several years, Emperor Liu Che sent men out to search the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; countryside and find Yan Zi Ling. But the emperor's men couldn't find&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him. Of course, the emperor's men had no idea that Yan Zi Ling now&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lives in his own special place in the mountains where he could get&#xD;&#xA;&gt; away from the trouble of the world.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; We all need a place to get away from it all and this man has found his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; place. Perhaps this painting will inspire you to find yours?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/xAVmT.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.orientaloutpost.com/go-fishing-in-the-mountains-chinese-philosophy-painting.php" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25588" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="8049" RevisionGUID="8b9cd432-0e07-4b4d-a83a-a7bcaab04102" CreationDate="2021-05-26T08:55:44.937" UserId="5511" Comment="added 140 characters in body" Text="This is Chinese, not Japanese. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The handwriting is too squiggly for me to read the middle characters but I think it says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;高山 High Mountain&#xD;&#xA;??  ??&#xD;&#xA;三石 Three Rocks&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Searching by these characters I found other renderings with the same artist seal signature:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[This page][2] had the following explanation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Maybe it seems silly to go fishing in the mountains, but we all need a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; place to get away and think.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In this painting the man does not expect to catch fish, but rather is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; there to think and contemplate his life, or find solutions to any&#xD;&#xA;&gt; problems he might have, and just get away from the real world for a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; while.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; This painting is inspired by the story of a gifted philosopher and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; scholarly man named Yan Zi Ling who was called to service by Emperor&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Liu Che during the Han Dynasty. Yan Zi Ling did not want to take a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; position of authority in the government, fearing that holding such&#xD;&#xA;&gt; power, he would become corrupt.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Even though he was a wise, talented, and honorable man, he knew that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; service in the imperial court could corrupt even the most ethical&#xD;&#xA;&gt; person. He felt so strongly about preserving his own integrity and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dignity that he decided that it would be better to live in exile than&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to become another corrupt official.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; For several years, Emperor Liu Che sent men out to search the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; countryside and find Yan Zi Ling. But the emperor's men couldn't find&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him. Of course, the emperor's men had no idea that Yan Zi Ling now&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lives in his own special place in the mountains where he could get&#xD;&#xA;&gt; away from the trouble of the world.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; We all need a place to get away from it all and this man has found his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; place. Perhaps this painting will inspire you to find yours?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Probably inspired by the original painting &quot;[AFTER LIU SONGNIAN (1150-1225)][3]&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/xAVmT.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.orientaloutpost.com/go-fishing-in-the-mountains-chinese-philosophy-painting.php&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/20580/lot/349/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25589" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="8047" RevisionGUID="0867be44-c64f-43ce-abec-80f02647494f" CreationDate="2021-05-26T15:07:50.543" UserId="5504" Comment="Changed tag from Japanese to Chinese." Text="|chinese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25591" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="8048" RevisionGUID="e84681ef-ef35-4ad5-8fe0-4407d26a02c7" CreationDate="2021-05-27T07:22:42.080" UserId="5806" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="The question is: &#xD;&#xA;&quot;Which specific ancient sources did NOT consider Kronus and Chronos to be the same being?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a Greek who has been taught Ancient Greek, i can assure you that modern Greek are not the same thing, ancient ones are like a foreign language to most of us. But let's go to the point. Some things remain the same or similar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kronus =  ΚΡΟΝΟΣ = the planet (and obviously the father of Zeus)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Chronus = ΧΡΟΝΟΣ = time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;we say ΧΙΜΑΙΡΑ (Chimera)&#xD;&#xA;X sounds like &quot;He&quot; in Greek, that's why in English they use Ch instead of K.&#xD;&#xA;K sounds the same. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you can see there is only one difference. The fist letter. And it is unfortunate, that they sound somewhat the same.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Copy paste ΚΡΟΝΟΣ ΧΡΟΝΟΣ in google translate in greek and press voice button to hear them. If you see gibberish instead of greek letters, encode your browser to UTF-8.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the most reliable source that define ΚΡΟΝΟΣ and ΧΡΟΝΟΣ as two different things, is... well... the Greek language itself.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25592" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="8048" RevisionGUID="1c5d5a2d-71e6-4536-83c6-917513fe61e9" CreationDate="2021-05-27T07:51:22.577" UserId="5806" Comment="added 676 characters in body" Text="The question is: &#xD;&#xA;&quot;Which specific ancient sources did NOT consider Kronus and Chronos to be the same being?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a Greek who has been taught Ancient Greek, i can assure you that modern Greek are not the same thing, ancient ones are like a foreign language to most of us. But let's go to the point. Some things remain the same or similar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kronus =  ΚΡΟΝΟΣ = the planet (and obviously the father of Zeus)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Chronus = ΧΡΟΝΟΣ = time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;we say ΧΙΜΑΙΡΑ (Chimera)&#xD;&#xA;X sounds like &quot;He&quot; in Greek, that's why in English they use Ch instead of K.&#xD;&#xA;K sounds the same. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As you can see there is only one difference. The fist letter. And it is unfortunate, that they sound somewhat the same.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Copy paste ΚΡΟΝΟΣ ΧΡΟΝΟΣ in google translate in greek and press voice button to hear them. If you see gibberish instead of greek letters, encode your browser to UTF-8.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the most reliable source that define ΚΡΟΝΟΣ and ΧΡΟΝΟΣ as two different things, is... well... the Greek language itself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;EDIT:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;ORPHIC THEOGONY is the source that refer ΧΡΟΝΟΣ as an entity older than the Titans. (Orphic Rhapsodies, Ieronymos and Ellanikos)&#xD;&#xA;The source of this information is a diplomatic Thesis&#xD;&#xA;ΧΡΟΝΟΣ gave birth to the Cosmic Egg along with ΑΝΑΓΚΗ. Cosmic egg created the Universe when it broke.&#xD;&#xA;ΧΡΟΝΟΣ is a Generator, one that gave birth to many things.&#xD;&#xA;Kronos, is a Titan, too inferior and younger entity than Chronos. So there you go. They are different entities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source is in Greek, I am sorry about that, but it is a part of the Scientific Community so it is a valid Thesis.&#xD;&#xA;https://nemertes.lis.upatras.gr/jspui/bitstream/10889/4849/1/Nimertis_Ktena(lit).pdf&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also one of the horses that was moving Sun's Chariot was named also Chronos.&#xD;&#xA;But you should focus on the older entity that created and broke the Cosmic Egg.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another source is a dictionary:&#xD;&#xA;Source is a mythological dictionary: Emmy Patsi-Garin: Επίτομο λεξικό Ελληνικής Μυθολογίας, Publisher: «Χάρη Πάτση», Athens 1969, page. 705" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25594" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1385" RevisionGUID="6ebdb05a-de26-4907-a398-5de09eb5302a" CreationDate="2021-05-28T09:05:30.453" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="25595" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8050" RevisionGUID="d05c8169-9d1a-4273-8bb6-46614dc8e910" CreationDate="2021-05-28T20:49:17.890" UserId="158" Text="Obviously there are tons of statues of various gods, but these can usually be summed up as &quot;muscular men and beautiful women.&quot; There's not a ton of detail in terms of facial appearance, compared with busts of historical figures (e.g. [Augustus][1], [Caracalla][2], and [Nero][3], who each have very distinct and recognizable appearances). Which makes sense, of course, since the gods are fictional and weren't posing for sculptors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Still, I'm trying to discern if there were any particulars of Olympian appearance that were described in ancient sources, things like hair color, eye color, height relative to other gods, notable facial features, especially pale or dark skin, etc. The only ones I can think of so far are...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Hephaestus's lame leg(s).&#xD;&#xA; 2. Beards for Zeus, Poseidon, Hades, and Hephaestus, but usually not for Ares, Apollo, Dionysus, or Hermes.&#xD;&#xA; 3. Athena's blue/gray eyes.&#xD;&#xA; 4. Aphrodite is often described as &quot;golden,&quot; though I'm not certain that refers to blonde hair. My impression is that Apollo was blonde too, though maybe that's more modern tradition than ancient description?&#xD;&#xA; 5. Some authors describe Dionysus as coming from India or Egypt, so he would likely have slightly darker skin in those depictions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A few other details come to mind as common-sense, like Hades having pale skin and black hair or Hermes being shorter as a boyish young man, but I'm trying to stick to explicit descriptions from ancient sources. Similarly, there are some modern traditions (e.g. Artemis being a redhead to fit the &quot;wild woman&quot; archetype) that I'm trying to strip away.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm not looking for descriptions of clothing or equipment (e.g. Athena's helmet and shield), nor sources from later eras (e.g. Renaissance paintings). I'm just trying to find sourced details for how the ancients imagined each Olympian God's appearance, and what they left vague.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0468/9773/products/086-augustus-caesar-bust-1.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/29/8d/4c/298d4c3998720cc9d396539579a22c53.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/01/e1/d8/01e1d866d50f3db633bb3659a9cebc74.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25596" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="8050" RevisionGUID="d05c8169-9d1a-4273-8bb6-46614dc8e910" CreationDate="2021-05-28T20:49:17.890" UserId="158" Text="Did ancient Greek authors describe any consistent details of the Olympians' appearance (hair/eye color, relative height, etc)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25597" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="8050" RevisionGUID="d05c8169-9d1a-4273-8bb6-46614dc8e910" CreationDate="2021-05-28T20:49:17.890" UserId="158" Text="|greek|source-request|iconography|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25599" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8051" RevisionGUID="d96e5991-7980-4f98-b984-184d9501ed21" CreationDate="2021-05-29T12:21:35.607" UserId="5511" Text="[Statues were colored in Ancient Greece][1], and it's indicated by pigment traces that, for example, the statue of a deity did not get a new hair color every (insert interval here) like a modern-day celebrity. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [LiebigHaus collection currently has a great exhibition][2] reconstructing the color of Olympian statues.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is probably as close as you can possibly get to a consensus (or at least a common impression) among a localized population with regards to skin &amp; hair color, etc. It would be an impression more widespread than literature, since research indicates only 10-15 percent of the Ancient Greeks could read &amp; write.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/true-colors-17888/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://buntegoetter.liebieghaus.de/en/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25601" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8052" RevisionGUID="969000f0-b76f-49ca-85eb-8ba29dc410c7" CreationDate="2021-05-30T13:15:33.783" UserId="7095" Text="I'm doing some research into the names of the months in the Phoenician calendar. I have a theory that all but three of the names have ties to the Phoenician pagan practices, but don't have evidence yet for all nine remaining months.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The months are&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. זבח שמש - Zevach Shemesh - sacrifice to the sun&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. מרפא - Merapeh - after Baal Merapeh, a Canaanite god&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. חיר - Khir - per the name Khiram (Hiram), it may be deduced that Khir is the name of a god (as it seems the name means &quot;Khir [is] great&quot;)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. בול - Bul - clump or rain&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;5. פעלת - Po'elet or Pe'ulot - [fem.] acting or acts&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;6. פגרם - Pegarim - [probably][1] referring to cultic stelae (and there [might have also been][2] a Baal Pegarim)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;7. אתנים - Etanim - Hurrian for fathers/patriarchs&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;8. זו - Ziv - splendor&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;9. מתן - Matan - gift&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;10. מפע - Mofiah - appearing&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;11. מפע לפני - Mofiah Lifnei - appearing before&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;12. כרר - Karar - Karar, a Phoenician god&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm stuck on Matan (gift) and Po'elet/Pe'ulot ([fem.] acting or acts). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Matan - I know Matan was a common Phoenician name, together with variants such as Matanbaal (gift from/to Baal) but the word itself has a neutral connotation in Hebrew, both ancient and modern.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Po'elet/Pe'ulot - If the correct reading is Po'elet, it might be deduced that it's referring to the acts of a goddess, perhaps Astaroth. However, if it's simply Pe'ulot, acts, the word has a neutral connotation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any evidence that the intent behind the names of these months was for something related to the Phoenician mythology or worship practices? Are there any scholars that hold such views?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; List based off of Prof. Robert Stieglitz's essay &quot;The Phoenician-Punic Menology&quot; (can be read in preview mode [here][3]) and Claude Reignier Conder's essay &quot;[The Hebrew Months][4]&quot;. Karar is thought to be the name of a god because there were Phoenicians named Evedkarar (servant of Karar).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.jstor.org/stable/3261427?read-now=1&amp;refreqid=excelsior%3Ab514e20d78c4cc3b232bbaf1fedda286&amp;seq=4#page_scan_tab_contents&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.witchcraft.co.il/?p=63&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://link.umsl.edu/portal/Boundaries-of-the-ancient-Near-Eastern-world--a/lchUb1l6cRc/&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/pefqs/1889_01_021.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25602" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="8052" RevisionGUID="969000f0-b76f-49ca-85eb-8ba29dc410c7" CreationDate="2021-05-30T13:15:33.783" UserId="7095" Text="The Phoenician Months MTN and P'LT" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25603" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="8052" RevisionGUID="969000f0-b76f-49ca-85eb-8ba29dc410c7" CreationDate="2021-05-30T13:15:33.783" UserId="7095" Text="|origins|calendar-dates|phoenician|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25605" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6144" RevisionGUID="ac9f560e-0874-431c-bd19-c6886cb76e48" CreationDate="2021-05-31T03:07:00.587" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="25606" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="8042" RevisionGUID="cba7dc39-4b59-411e-9702-7e07c79d25ae" CreationDate="2021-05-31T05:47:40.920" UserId="-1" Comment="102" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;cmw&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:7315,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Gullintanni&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:7095,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Harel13&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:1241,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Ken Graham&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="25607" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8053" RevisionGUID="81f4f34d-6771-45d7-b226-97596f66409f" CreationDate="2021-06-01T04:45:31.913" UserId="8174" Text="You are reading it as a modern and not putting yourself in the shoes of an ancient. I love a little snippet from chesterton on paradoxes (see below). Always remember that when you posit the supernatural, as they did, many more things are possible in your worldview, including miracles. They held fate and free will to both exist as truths and to hell with the paradox, transcendental truth overrides consistency. You will see many contradictions on fate and free will when you read ancient greek literature, but if you remember that they hold these as transcendental truths as primary they override the contradictions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;The ordinary man has always been sane because the ordinary man has always been a mystic. He has permitted the twilight. He has always had one foot in earth and the other in fairyland. He has always left himself free to doubt his gods; but (unlike the agnostic of to-day) free also to believe in them. He has always cared more for truth than for consistency. If he saw two truths that seemed to contradict each other, he would take the two truths and the contradiction along with them. His spiritual sight is stereoscopic, like his physical sight: he sees two different pictures at once and yet sees all the better for that. Thus he has always believed that there was such a thing as fate, but such a thing as free will also. Thus he believed that children were indeed the kingdom of heaven, but nevertheless ought to be obedient to the kingdom of earth. He admired youth because it was young and age because it was not. It is exactly this balance of apparent contradictions that has been the whole buoyancy of the healthy man. The whole secret of mysticism is this: that man can understand everything by the help of what he does not understand.&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25608" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8054" RevisionGUID="514bffc7-e4c7-4e6f-bcc0-28845f1eb867" CreationDate="2021-06-01T21:16:30.157" UserId="3341" Text="Part of the Grand Plan?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An &quot;impious fish&quot; ate the phallus of Osiris.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What if that fish was female and transformed into Aphrodite, including Osiris' seed being encapsulated in 'fish eggs'. Perhaps after many seeds are distributed (Whore of Babylon, by plan? Temple Prostitution with a Purpose), one day Osiris will be regenerated in full form.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I find the 'missing parts' theme interesting also. The other day I read, once again, the story of the Horus/Set incident with the lettuce. Except this time, I saw details never seen/noticed before. [Brackets added.]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/mqr/2015/05/lettuce-and-kings-the-power-struggle-between-horus-and-set-2/][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Lettuce and Kings: The Power Struggle Between Horus and Set by Morgan&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jerkins&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to Papyrus Chester Beatty I, the conflict between Horus and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Set happened to be a series of bouts, such as when they transformed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; into hippopotamuses and submerged themselves into the water to see who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; could last the longest, to Set removing Horus’s eyeballs as he slept.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Don’t worry, Horus was able to regain his eyes with the help of a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mistress named Hathor. But the story takes an erotic turn soon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; afterwards:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now afterward, (at) evening time, bed was prepared for them, and they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; both lay down. But during the night, Set caused his phallus to become&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stiff and inserted it between Horus’s thighs. Then Horus placed his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hands between his thighs and received Set’s semen. Horus went to tell&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his mother Isis: “Help me, Isis, my mother, come and see what Set has&#xD;&#xA;&gt; done to me.” And he opened his hand(s) and let her see Set’s semen.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **She let out a loud shriek, seized the copper (knife), cut off his hand(s) that were equivalent.** [I suspect it's only one hand...and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; may reflect the many Bible verses of &quot;My hand is stretched out&#xD;&#xA;&gt; still&quot;.] Then she fetched some fragrant ointment and applied it to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Horus’s phallus. She caused it to become stiff and inserted it into a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; pot, and he caused his semen to flow down into it.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Isis at morning time went carrying the semen of Horus to the garden of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Set and said to Set’s gardener: “What sort of vegetable is it that Set&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eats here in your company?”  So the gardener told her: “He doesn’t eat&#xD;&#xA;&gt; any vegetable here in my company except lettuce.” And Isis added the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; semen of Horus onto it. Set returned according to his daily habit and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ate the lettuce, which he regularly ate. **Thereupon he became&#xD;&#xA;&gt; pregnant with the semen of Horus.** [Does this have anything to do&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with the Bible verses that say men will one day travail as women?]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Towards the end of the story, both Horus and Set appear in front of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thoth, who was another deity known to handle godly disputes:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Said Set: “Let me be awarded the office of Ruler … for as to Horus,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the one who is standing (trial), I have performed the labor of a male&#xD;&#xA;&gt; against him.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In other words, Horus cannot be ruler of Egypt because he had been&#xD;&#xA;&gt; covered in sperm like a woman. Because Set has performed a “labor of a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; male against him,” Horus cannot rule over anyone. He had already been&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ruled.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Horus then took an oath by god as follows: “All that Set has said is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; false. Let Set’s semen be summoned that we may see from where it&#xD;&#xA;&gt; answers, and my own be summoned that we may see from where it&#xD;&#xA;&gt; answers.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Thoth, lord of script and scribe of truth for the Ennead, put his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hand on Horus’s shoulder and said: “Come out, you semen of Set.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And it answered him from the water in the interior of the marsh. Thoth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; put his hand on Set’s shoulder and said: “Come out, you semen of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Horus.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then it said to him: “Where shall I come from?”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thoth said to it: “Come out from his ear.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thereupon it said to him: “Is it from his ear that I should issue&#xD;&#xA;&gt; forth, seeing that I am divine seed?”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Thoth said to it: ”Come out from the top of his head.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And it emerged as a golden solar disk upon Set’s head. Set became&#xD;&#xA;&gt; exceeding furious and extended his hand(s) to seize the golden solar&#xD;&#xA;&gt; disk. Thoth took it away from him and placed it as a crown upon his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (own) head […]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And so Set took a great oath by [the] god as follows: “He shall not be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; awarded the office.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://Lettuce%20and%20Kings&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What struck me about this incident is that it is the best origin for the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil I've ever seen. Horus' hand is the tree that produces both types of seed - His/good and Set's/evil, a blended fruit. Of course, the only way it works is if Isis took some of Horus' seed and placed it together with Set's in the sullied hand of Horus before tossing into the marsh.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25609" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8055" RevisionGUID="8e984dd3-f529-4b71-a724-7ad0f01f4865" CreationDate="2021-06-02T07:06:06.443" UserId="6739" Text="Most sources on the internet agree that Anahita's four white horses are named Wind, Clouds, Rain, and Sleet. These are obviously the English translations of these words. I am looking for the original Avestan words. As far as my research has gone, I have found these as the originals: Vayu “wind”, Maēγa “clouds”, Vāra “rain”, and Snéshar “sleet” Since I do not know Avestan, I am uncertain how correct these are. Any help with confirming or rejecting any of these would be greatly appreciated.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25610" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="8055" RevisionGUID="8e984dd3-f529-4b71-a724-7ad0f01f4865" CreationDate="2021-06-02T07:06:06.443" UserId="6739" Text="What were the names of Anahita's horses in the original Avestan language?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25611" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="8055" RevisionGUID="8e984dd3-f529-4b71-a724-7ad0f01f4865" CreationDate="2021-06-02T07:06:06.443" UserId="6739" Text="|mythical-creatures|persian|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25612" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8056" RevisionGUID="c27a0a00-0c51-4cc5-895b-8966dab7272b" CreationDate="2021-06-02T14:49:58.203" UserId="6988" Text="I'm trying to find a version of [The Three Fairies][1] (or it may have been a retelling of Cinderella) in which an evil sister gets a donkey tail placed on her forehead. By contrast, the kind protagonist gets a [star on her forehead][2] instead. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are versions involving donkey ears and other body parts, but the one I read specifically had a tail coming down from the sky to land on the evil sister's head, and it may have involved more than one sibling. Does anyone know of this particular version, and where it came from?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three_Fairies&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://writinginmargins.weebly.com/home/a-star-on-her-forehead" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25613" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="8056" RevisionGUID="c27a0a00-0c51-4cc5-895b-8966dab7272b" CreationDate="2021-06-02T14:49:58.203" UserId="6988" Text="Which version of Little Gold Star or the Three Fairies involved a donkey tail?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25614" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="8056" RevisionGUID="c27a0a00-0c51-4cc5-895b-8966dab7272b" CreationDate="2021-06-02T14:49:58.203" UserId="6988" Text="|fairies|fairy-tales|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25616" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8058" RevisionGUID="0ef2e043-e567-4c08-8c2a-ad993f0b9c99" CreationDate="2021-06-03T15:35:37.093" UserId="6739" Text="The bălan daos, or albo daos, from Dacia, were priests granted the ability to transform into white wolves by the god Zalmoxis, to defend the Dacian people. The Dacian Kingdom existed between 82 BC until the Roman conquest in AD 106. They were also known as the  Getae by the Greeks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://europeanfairy.wordpress.com/2019/07/04/dacian-wolf-legend/&#xD;&#xA;https://ursusspelaeus.wordpress.com/2011/11/21/folk-big-white-wolf/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25617" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="8059" RevisionGUID="bd2493c7-c9f7-446e-84dc-5c7dfb516edb" CreationDate="2021-06-04T00:59:44.003" UserId="6920" Text="This occurs in the Italian [Colony of Cats][1], except for the specific detail of the sky:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The little maid, having gratefully kissed the white paw of the old cat, set off for home; but just as she got near her mother’s house the cock crowed, and quickly she turned towards it. Immediately a beautiful golden star appeared on her forehead, crowning her glossy black hair&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;She was within sight of her mother’s house when she heard in the meadow on the right, the voice of a donkey loudly braying. Quickly she turned her head towards it, and at the same time put her hand up to her forehead, where, waving like a plume, was a donkey’s tail. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://etc.usf.edu/lit2go/142/the-crimson-fairy-book/5123/the-colony-of-cats/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="25618" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="7801" RevisionGUID="ba45a2a7-cede-4716-9ea5-5b21ca42caa2" CreationDate="2021-06-04T01:04:35.397" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="26617" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9059" RevisionGUID="1916a375-4a5d-45ec-be24-bba113652238" CreationDate="2021-06-04T15:14:38.347" UserId="3341" Text="While searching on a different topic, came across information on 'the mill' and recalled this topic on M&amp;F. [All emphasis added.] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://www.tresman.co.uk/harold/35light.htm&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **The Primordial Light?** - Harold Tresman &amp; B. O'Gheoghan&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **3. The Disruption of Saturn** The most striking myth of the destruction of Saturn is that in the Egyptian referring to the demise&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Osiris at the hands of Seth (75). Osiris is dismembered. *Other&#xD;&#xA;&gt; destruction motifs relating to the end of Saturn are given by de&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Santillana and von Dechend with reference to the destruction of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mill, where before it finally sank into the sea it ground out stones.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **(76)*** &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Footnote (76)**. At the end of the &quot;Golden Age&quot;, the Mill churned out first gold, then salt, then sand and stones.  See for instance, de&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Santillana and von Dechend, op. cit., p. 146. [The millstone is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; considered to represent the revolving sky - **see end of section 6** -&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ed.]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **6. Mythology of the Flood** ...We are indebted to Sieff for the following analysis of Hamlet's Mill:&quot; . . . de Santillana and von&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dechend collected together myths that were interpreted by them to show&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that **Saturn was the first Lord of the Mill** (see pp. 116 and 146). The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mill is a huge grindstone (therefore circular) perceived in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [revolving] sky, which grinds out different substances over the Earth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; at the start/changes of World Ages (pp. 140, 146). For the age in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; question [i.e. the demise of Saturn] it ground out salt into the sea.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Mill is sunken in a great cosmic maelstrom (pp. 86-112); we are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; able to identify it as the Flood catastrophe.&quot;(110)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Wikipedia** - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamlet%27s_Mill&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hamlet's Mill: An Essay Investigating the Origins of Human Knowledge&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and Its Transmission Through Myth (first published by Gambit, Boston,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1969) by Giorgio de Santillana.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...In particular, the book reconstructs a myth of a heavenly mill which&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rotates around the celestial pole and grinds out the world's salt and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; soil, and is associated with the maelstrom. **The millstone falling&#xD;&#xA;&gt; off its frame represents the passing of one age's pole star&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (symbolized by a ruler or king of some sort)**, and its restoration&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and the overthrow of the old king of authority and the empowering of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the new one the establishment of a new order of the age (a new star&#xD;&#xA;&gt; moving into the position of pole star). The authors attempt to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; demonstrate the prevalence of influence of this hypothetical&#xD;&#xA;&gt; civilization's ideas by analysing the world's mythology (with an eye&#xD;&#xA;&gt; especially to all &quot;mill myths&quot;)...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26619" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="8056" RevisionGUID="fc174312-bd4a-4026-941c-bf0c832d8720" CreationDate="2021-06-05T03:58:40.083" UserId="6988" Comment="adds correct tag- unless myth ID does not apply to fairy tales" Text="|myth-identification|fairy-tales|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26620" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9060" RevisionGUID="1f14e5e8-e7c6-4303-ad9c-923b2ff304f8" CreationDate="2021-06-05T07:37:42.907" UserId="8181" Text="This is a simple narrative to explain many of the mysteries of religions. According to our X , Y chromosome genetics, see for example;&#xD;&#xA; https://phys.org/news/2011-11-genographic-humans-migrated-africa-arabia.html, &#xD;&#xA;all humans and even homo-eructus before, all migrated out of the horn of Africa to Asia via the Red sea, Yemen, Arabia and the rest of the world(see the maps produced by the National-Geographic above). And according to the genetic studies of archaeological sites, ancient humans reached, with the exception of few places, to all parts of the world driven up and down, east and west, by the antagonistic conditions of climate change,predators, prey, other food and diseases. This is example of the many good researches surfacing recently; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOj170kogg0&amp;t=3241s.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The early human society was based on the grandmother and siblings groups. Loosing her is strong among what started religion. First by believing that when people die they join grandmother. Then believing that she might come back to life and started taking a good care of the dead with good dresses, possessions and even food left in the grave. Left over from this system is still seen in isolated societies and some in our modern ones too- as in the rule of queens, the feminine names of things, towns and even some tribes. This started the worship of the ancestors and how it is spread all over the ancient world. Worshipping the cow/bull/calf/goat etc came next. Because the cow is gift to humans at difficult times- eating the poorly nutritious grass and giving back plenty of protein rich products. It fed the babies with milk and replaced the mother when she died too. So the next extension to religion was the worship of a range of animals. This also served to stop people killing for food these life saving animals. There are nomad tribes in Africa travelling all the way from its east coast to the west coast on the Atlantic, living mainly on cows. They use their urine for medicine and for washing their hair. This is in addition to using the dung to build their houses. The bulls high regards were clear in Mesopotamia, Europe and Asia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The harsh environment conditions enlarged the religion further to worship the forces of nature like the wind, water and then the planets starting with the sun and the moon. That is why the sun is depicted in many religions around the ancient worked and the modern world too. Many flags still carry the sun, the moon and the stars. The lunar and solar time systems, the horoscope cults, and even the names of the days are a reminiscence of those times- like Sun-Day, and Moon-Day. The names for these days sounds differently in other languages, but also refer to the sun and the moon. With the growth in the population group numbers, strong rulers appeared and needed to reduce the Gods to one to avoid multiplicity of authority and this is how the unification religion appeared and spread all over the world- since the days of Abraham for example.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, because habits die hard, and religion is just one, people between time and time revert back to the more ancient version of the religion- mainly when the existing versions at the time get corrupted and abused- mainly by rulers. It remains to say that religion was the precursor to philosophy and science. Like them, religion also was trying hard to understand the world around so as to do what is needed to protect people and survive. Science at the moment is continuing this important path and as such, we should consider science to be the final version of all human religions.     " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26622" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9062" RevisionGUID="3dc7a3d1-af44-4911-ba57-c70bca8eef1f" CreationDate="2021-06-11T21:50:42.847" UserId="8232" Text="Bensiabel is the son of the witch and an instrumental character in the fairy tale Prunella (Andrew Lang, &quot;Grey Fairy Book&quot; [https://www.gutenberg.org/files/6746/6746-h/6746-h.htm#link2H_4_0036]).  I've been trying to figure out how his name is meant to be pronounced, but it doesn't seem to be an Italian name.  I've been trying to locate a standard pronunciation but have been unable to find one.  &#xD;&#xA;I can imagine ben-SIGH-uh-bell, BEN-see-uh-bell, ben-see-AY-bull, or a number of similar pronunciations. &#xD;&#xA;Is there any indication of what would be the &quot;correct&quot;/intended pronunciation?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26623" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="9062" RevisionGUID="3dc7a3d1-af44-4911-ba57-c70bca8eef1f" CreationDate="2021-06-11T21:50:42.847" UserId="8232" Text="How should &quot;Bensiabel&quot; be pronounced?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26624" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="9062" RevisionGUID="3dc7a3d1-af44-4911-ba57-c70bca8eef1f" CreationDate="2021-06-11T21:50:42.847" UserId="8232" Text="|fairy-tales|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26626" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9064" RevisionGUID="96d74411-5660-4b00-ae1b-67450df472f0" CreationDate="2021-06-13T10:43:01.157" UserId="5511" Text="Prunella and Bensiabel are the names in Andrew Lang's version of the tale. There is also an Italian language version of this tale recorded by [Calvino][1], where the names are Prezzemolina and Memé.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*prezzemolo* in Italian means &quot;parsley, whereas Prunella is derived from the Latin for &quot;plum&quot;. Prunella was a common name in the Victorian era in England, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since there is no apparent connection in the etymology or meaning of the &#xD;&#xA;protagonist's name, there is no reason to assume there is one for Bensiabel. Since Lang was Scottish there is the possibility it is derived from [Scots][2] (Gaelic). The Italian version also describes Memé as the son of Morgan Le Fay (MĀRA RĪGANĪ-S &gt; MÓR RÍGAN in Gaelic).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If the origin is Scots then the name might mean something like:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Ben - perhaps from beinn (/beiNʲ -&gt; bayin) = mountain&#xD;&#xA; - Sia (/ʃia/ -&gt; shee-yah) = six&#xD;&#xA; - Bel - perhaps from Beil (bill) = Highlands&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And pronounced like bayin-shee-yah-bill. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is just an educated guess though, I'm not well versed in Gaelic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italo_Calvino&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_language" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26627" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="9062" RevisionGUID="def52f34-7ce0-406f-9978-7bb70c27d42f" CreationDate="2021-06-14T13:28:20.497" UserId="7444" Comment="Formatting and fixed link" Text="Bensiabel is the son of the witch and an instrumental character in the fairy tale Prunella ([Andrew Lang, &quot;Grey Fairy Book&quot;](https://www.gutenberg.org/files/6746/6746-h/6746-h.htm#link2H_4_0036)).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've been trying to figure out how his name is meant to be pronounced, but it doesn't seem to be an Italian name.  I've been trying to locate a standard pronunciation but have been unable to find one. &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;I can imagine ben-SIGH-uh-bell, BEN-see-uh-bell, ben-see-AY-bull, or a number of similar pronunciations. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any indication of what would be the &quot;correct&quot;/intended pronunciation?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26628" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="9062" RevisionGUID="def52f34-7ce0-406f-9978-7bb70c27d42f" CreationDate="2021-06-14T13:28:20.497" Comment="Proposed by 7444 approved by 8232 edit id of 1869" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26630" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9066" RevisionGUID="952ad9eb-de1a-4f5e-8cfd-49e72b276542" CreationDate="2021-06-16T15:28:50.830" UserId="4152" Text="(Just for what little it worths, &quot;most sources on the internet&quot; seem to be carbon copies of each other, be it Wikipedia, Encyclopedia Iranica which seem to refer back to articles in JSTOR. Anyway.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A search through *An Avesta Grammar in Comparison with Sanskrit* reveals that you're on the right path with early Iranian roots:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;WIND --- Av. văyu-, Skt. vāyu-&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;CLOUD --- Av. maēʒəm, Skt. mēghám&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;RAIN --- Av. vāra-&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;SLEET --- Av. fyawhunte (they shower sleet)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Avestan text the four horses of Anahita can be found in and its English translation is here, p 201][1]. I am not convinced these are names per se. It seems that the supposed names are simply describing the four horses: āsyangha vātaēibya, swifter than winds; āsyangha vāraēibya, swifter than rains, āsyangha maēghaēibya, swifter than clouds. Throughout the text, the editors seem pretty consistent when capitalising names.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sraoshem1 ashīm2 huraodhem3 verethrājanem4 frādat-gaēthem5 ashavanem6  ashahe7 ratūm8 yazamaide9. Yim10 chathwārō 11 aurvantō 12 aurusha13 raokhshna14, fraderesra15, spenta16 vīdhvāonghō17, asaya18 mainivasanghō&#xD;&#xA;19 vazenti20 sravaēna21 aeshām22 safāonghō23 zaranya24 paiti25 thwarshtāonghō&#xD;&#xA;26. (28) Āsyangha27 aspaēibya28, āsyangha29 vātaēibya30, āsyangha31 vāraēibya32 āsyangha33 maēghaēibya34 āsyangha35 vayaēibya36, hvapataretaēibya37, āsyangha38 hvastayāo39 ainghimanayāo40, (29) Yōi&#xD;&#xA;41 vīspe42 te43 apayeinti44 yōi45 ave46 paskāt47 vyeinti48, nōit49 ave50 paskāt51 āfente52. Yōi53 vaēibya54 snaithizibya55 frāyatayeinti56 vazemna57 yim58 vohūm59 Sraoshem60 ashīm61. Yatchit62 ushastarire63 hindvō&#xD;&#xA;64 āgēurvayeite65 yatchit66 daoshataire67 nighne6&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We worship1  the righteous2 and the holy6 Srosh Yazata the beautiful3,&#xD;&#xA;victorious4, bringing-prosperity to the world5 and Lord8 of righteousness7.&#xD;&#xA;Whom10 four11 white13 steeds12 (abi)brilliant14, beautiful15, divine16, wise17 (and) (abj)shadowless18 carry in the wagon20 in the (abk)heavenly spaces19. The hoofs23 of those (horses) are laden21 and gilt26 with gold24. (28) They are swifter27 than (other) horses28, swifter29 than winds30, rains32, clouds34, birds36 well-winged37 (and) swifter38 than arrows40 well-aimed39. (29) They (horses) (abl)can overtake44 all42 those43 who go in pursuit of them. The pursuers can never49 overtake52 those (horses). Who53 (horses) speed on56 (while) carrying57 in the chariot57 the good59 holy61 (Sraosha yazata) (when he) takes his course65 in the eastern-most63 Hind64 and abmalights down68 in the West67, (i.e. starting from the Keshvar-region called Savahi he goes to the Keshvar-region called Arezahi.).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;abh For its translation see 1st karda of Sraosha yasht Hādokht.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;abi The meaning of “aurusha” is also “crimson”. See Tir yashta, 1st Kardāh.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;abj i.e. (Steeds) who do not cast any shadow; a=not; saya=Persian sāyeh=shadow. Dr. Mills taking the word as “āsava” translates it as “swift”.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;abk Or moving in accord with the divine will (mainyava + vasangha)&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;abl i.e. the speed of the horses of the holy Sraosha yazata as mentioned in this paragraph is swifter then wind, bird, arrow, etc&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://zoroastriansnet.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/translation-of-khordeh-avesta-in-english.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26631" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9067" RevisionGUID="2afd14d6-c770-4291-a494-b7a59b482a99" CreationDate="2021-06-17T20:06:42.993" UserId="4601" Text="The pre-Incan Andean deity known as the Staff God, assimilated as Viracocha in Incan mythology, is the earliest depiction of a deity in the Americas, and representations have been found from Lake Titicaca to the northern Peruvian highlands:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Wall carving of the Staff God][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The staffs themselves take the form of snakes or other creatures, cacti, lightning, or stacks of fearsome heads, but they are always shown thus, held to either side in outstretched arms. What I haven't come across is the signifigance of this: why two? why held to either side in this fashion? Are there any myths or stories that would explain such a specific depiction enduring for millennia?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/oDSn9.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26632" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="9067" RevisionGUID="2afd14d6-c770-4291-a494-b7a59b482a99" CreationDate="2021-06-17T20:06:42.993" UserId="4601" Text="What do the Staff God's staffs and pose represent?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26633" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="9067" RevisionGUID="2afd14d6-c770-4291-a494-b7a59b482a99" CreationDate="2021-06-17T20:06:42.993" UserId="4601" Text="|comparative|symbolism|native-american|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26634" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7658" RevisionGUID="1deee9ff-0d4b-4ded-bb8d-e172aec6d0b4" CreationDate="2021-06-18T11:56:15.957" UserId="7095" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body" Text="A few possible answers:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a more secular view: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Heinrich Zimmern][1] in The Babylonian and the Hebrew Genesis (Originally in German &quot;Biblische und babylonische Urgeschichte&quot;), [pg 44-45][2], wrote:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;...We have found in Babylonian traditions the origin of this figure of the sage walking with God through the greater part of a life of three hundred and sixty-five years. Of the seventh primaeval king - Evedoranchos, as the name is given in Greek form by Berossus, or Enmeduranki, as it is given in Babylonian - many tales are told. He was king of Sippar, the city of the Sun-god Shamash. The god called him to intercourse with himself, taught him concerning many secrets of heaven and earth, and especially the art of foretelling the future from signs in heaven and on earth. Thus Enmeduranki became to the Babylonians the prototype of soothsayers...and, above all, by astrology, that is, the reading of the future by observation of the movements of the heavenly bodies and the positions of the constellations. As Enmeduranki to the Babylonians so did Henoch stand to the Jews of later times as the father and founder of astrology, and, indeed, of all knowledge in heaven and on earth. His life of three hundred and sixty-five years - short compared with the great ages attributed to the other patriarchs - may now be explained easily: Enmeduranki being in the service of the Sun-god, to Henoch were attributed the number of the days of the solar year as the number of the years of his life.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore, the significance of the number of years of Enoch's life being the same number of days as the solar year was to emphasize that Enoch was the father of astrology - and possibly other paths of wisdom&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; - while removing the polytheistic aspect of that tradition, which was, of course, contradictory to the Israelite religion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a more Jewish view, I can suggest:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;a. Perhaps there is no sun-related symbolic significance to Enoch's age, and the Biblical author actually thought that Enoch died at age 365 and wished to convey this to the Israelites. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;b. Jewish tradition holds that the Jewish calendar, was and is a solar-lunar calendar&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;, which, in this context, means that neither the sun nor the moon &quot;rule&quot; exclusively over anything. Neither is more important; rather, the one God rules over all. This would explain why the myth of Enoch ruling over Sippar was not included but his age was. Again, a removal of the polytheistic aspect of the tale.&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;c. I have just stumbled upon what Philo wrote on Enoch's lifetime:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In the first place, the year contains three hundred and sixty-five days; therefore, by the symbol of the solar orbit, the sacred historian here indicates the life of the repentant man. In the second place, as the sun is the cause of day and night, performing his revolutions by day above the hemisphere of the earth, and his course by night under the earth, so also the life of the man of repentance consists of alternations of light and darkness; of darkness, that is, of times of agitation and circumstances of injury; and of light, when the light of virtue and its radiant brilliancy arises. In the third place, he has assigned to him a complete number, as the sun is ordained to be the chief of the stars of heaven, under an appointed number, in the time which came before the period of his repentance, to lead to the oblivion of the sins previously committed; since, as God is good, he bestows the greatest favours most abundantly, and, at the same time, he effaces the former offences of those who devote themselves to him, and which might deserve chastisement, by a recollection of their virtues. ([The Midrash of Philo, 5:23][3])&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Philo emphasizes an idea that was also presented by some Jewish scholars, that Enoch was a repentant man - sometimes he sinned and sometimes he repented and was righteous.&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; Every year, according to the Jewish calendar, eventually brings one back to the Days of Atonement, also known as the High Holidays, during the months of Elul and Tishrei. Regardless of what that person may have done, every year, he has another chance to atone for his sins. The second point he makes ties into the first. The third also, but it may be argued that the third puts a special emphasis on the importance of the sun itself, which may be used as an argument in favor of similarities with the Mesopotamian Enoch being ruler of the sun-god-city. However, Philo emphasizes that the sun is only another tool for bringing about the glory of God.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;d. Some Jewish scholars have written that the significance of the number of years matching the solar calendar is to tell us that Enoch during his lifetime came to know incredible astronomical information (and not astrological, as Zimmern put it), which in turn led him to the realization that there is a higher power, that &quot;all the bodies of light come from the Higher Light&quot;, as [Rabbienu Bechayey ibn Chalawa][4] put it, in his [commentary on the verse][5], or as [Rabbi Yitzchak Karo][6] put in his book [Toldot Yitzchak][7], &quot;...and for this he said &quot;and Enoch walked with God&quot;, and the phrasing &quot;walking&quot; is only mentioned in relation to righteous ones. And by Noah it is said &quot;Noah walked with God&quot; and by Abraham it is said &quot;Walk in My ways&quot; and they all gained knowledge of the cycle of the sun and its great powers that teach about the rulership of The Lord of All and His Greatness&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; and Enoch stuck to The Higher Light from Whom came and were created the bodies of light on the fourth day.&quot; (my translation)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Either way, it seems that the point made by the Biblical author was to emphasize the monotheistic aspect of the figure and the removal of the idolatrous aspect.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; Though I am not sure based on what Jewish sources Zimmern says this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; Prof. Sid Z. Leiman in this [lecture][8], I believe, makes mention of the specific Dead Sea cult that used the specific calendar you mentioned. Yes, it was inherently different from the Pharisee calendar which was later accepted by the vast majority of the Jewish people, and not just because it was a solar calendar. The tradition I refer to is the one now commonly accepted by Orthodox Jews based on the Pharisee tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; Something similar was suggested about the figures of Tubal-Cain, Lemech and Naamah by the Jewish scholars [Malbim][9], [Shadal][10] and [Rabbi Immanuel Frances][11], as can be seen in the translations I brought in this [answer][12]. Both ideas - about Lemech and his descendants being the basis of later myths and Enoch and his descendants being thought of as the mythical rulers of the ancient Mesopotamian cities - are also brought by Rabbi Philip Biberfeld in his book [Universal Jewish History, vol. I][13].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; Midrash [Beresheet Rabbah 25:1][14]: &quot;Said Rabbi Aibo: Enoch was a hypocrite - sometimes he was righteous, sometimes he was a sinner. Said The Holy One, Blessed Is He: Until he is in his righteousness, I shall remove him [from this world]&quot; (my translation); [New Zohar, Genesis 842][15]: &quot;It is said in a baraita: Enoch son of Yared was a righteous man, but accepted upon himself to do evil. And The Holy One, Blessed Is He took him before his time, to do charity with him and to give him a good reward in the world to come.&quot; (my translation).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; Rabbi Karo is referring to a well-known midrash which states that Abraham, who, after all, [came from a family of idolaters][16], came to know of the one God by examining nature and the astronomical planetary bodies. (Midrash Hagadol, Lech Lecha 12).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Zimmern&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://archive.org/details/babylonianandhe00hutcgoog/page/n56/mode/2up&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Genesis.5.23?vhe=Tanach_with_Ta%27amei_Hamikra&amp;lang=bi&amp;aliyot=0&amp;p2=The_Midrash_of_Philo.5.23.2&amp;lang2=bi&amp;w2=all&amp;lang3=en&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahya_ben_Asher&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Genesis.5.23?vhe=Tanach_with_Ta%27amei_Hamikra&amp;lang=bi&amp;with=Rabbeinu%20Bahya&amp;lang2=en&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Karo&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Genesis.5.23?vhe=Tanach_with_Ta%27amei_Hamikra&amp;lang=bi&amp;with=Toledot%20Yitzchak&amp;lang2=en&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/726240/dr-shnayer-leiman/dead-sea-scrolls-ancient-jewish-texts-&amp;-modernity/&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malbim&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_David_Luzzatto&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Frances&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/6473/7095&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://www.hebrewbooks.org/4187&#xD;&#xA;  [14]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Bereishit_Rabbah.25.1?lang=bi&amp;with=all&amp;lang2=en&#xD;&#xA;  [15]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Zohar_Chadash%2C_Bereshit.842?vhe=Zohar_Chadash&amp;lang=bi&#xD;&#xA;  [16]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Joshua.24.2?vhe=Tanach_with_Ta%27amei_Hamikra&amp;lang=he" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26635" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9068" RevisionGUID="c928cbcf-3566-43ee-8a89-a47900cb458b" CreationDate="2021-06-19T15:19:52.353" UserId="8260" Text="If we approach the myth of immortality not so literally but as an entheogenic experience of immortality, then the sea urchin is a good candidate. This is consistent with the other shamanic elements within the story. Ancient people could have easily seen urchins as plants and there is a euphoria causing chemical found in sea urchin eggs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, if there is any real world geography in the story and Uruk is in the south and if he journeyed through the mountains then would have come to either the Caspian Sea or the Black Sea. What are the plants and animals in the waters in those regions?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26641" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9070" RevisionGUID="65a6886e-a162-48f2-bdc4-39ee0a72b0da" CreationDate="2021-06-20T00:36:09.220" UserId="2892" Text="Athena becomes goddess of Wisdom, Skill and Craft. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- The myth is about the transformation of the titanic aspect of the former generation into the present incarnation under the new Olympian order&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Logic's answer is solid, but arises out of the patriarchal viewpoint.  A part of Metis might stay in Zeus and give him wisdom—[Odin literally drinks Kvasir's blood to gain his power][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But in a deeper sense, Metis *becomes* Athena, who now operates within the structure of civilization.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kvasir" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26644" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9071" RevisionGUID="b72fb443-008e-4cd1-a3ce-3ac93c56d30c" CreationDate="2021-06-20T00:48:08.903" UserId="2892" Text="" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26645" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="9071" RevisionGUID="b72fb443-008e-4cd1-a3ce-3ac93c56d30c" CreationDate="2021-06-20T00:48:08.903" UserId="2892" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26646" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9072" RevisionGUID="3a2da7fa-315e-483c-8b56-a17b4d3bca48" CreationDate="2021-06-20T00:48:08.903" UserId="2892" Text="Use for questions related to contemporary mythologies.  (Typically, post-19th century, although Frankenstein would also qualify as a &quot;modern Prometheus&quot;).  Can also be used in conjunction with modern retellings which make significant alterations to mythical canon. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26647" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="9072" RevisionGUID="3a2da7fa-315e-483c-8b56-a17b4d3bca48" CreationDate="2021-06-20T00:48:08.903" UserId="2892" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26648" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="7841" RevisionGUID="13754edf-860f-4819-8b53-dab838a77c6d" CreationDate="2021-06-20T00:48:54.283" UserId="2892" Comment="edited tags" Text="|folklore|monsters|superstition|dreams|contemporary-mythology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26649" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9073" RevisionGUID="8bb24628-dfad-4484-bb7b-c2e7d0055242" CreationDate="2021-06-20T00:52:27.663" UserId="2892" Text="Speaking strictly from a game theoretic viewpoint:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The fully divine son of Zeus and Metis would have been wiser than Zeus, and made better decisions, in aggregate, over time, and thus eventually unseat and supplant Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Which sort of happened anyway in Rome with Apollo;)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The key here is patriarchy, where the ruler of Heaven in that time could not be a woman, thus transforming Metis' wisdom into a subordinate female vessel allowed it to be controlled.  Specifically, Athena works within the Olympian order, as subject to Zeus." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26650" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="9073" RevisionGUID="42630b76-5111-41d0-878b-2392e8b8be9f" CreationDate="2021-06-20T00:58:25.983" UserId="2892" Comment="added 348 characters in body" Text="Speaking strictly from a game theoretic viewpoint:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The fully divine son of Zeus and Metis would have been wiser than Zeus, and made better decisions, in aggregate, over time, and thus eventually unseat and supplant Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Which sort of happened anyway in Rome with Apollo;)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The key here is patriarchy, under which framework the ruler of Heaven could not be a woman—Athena could not supplant Zeus as a female. Thus transforming Metis' wisdom into a subordinate female vessel allowed it to be controlled, and Athena specifically works within the Olympian order, as subject to Zeus.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Athena is, in some sense, the ultimate &quot;daddy's girl&quot;, having had no mother, which point Apollo makes in [the Eumenidies \[657 ff.\]][1] to dismiss the importance of mothers compared to fathers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0006%3Acard%3D640" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26651" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="7998" RevisionGUID="a5a19151-87a4-44c0-9d18-2b65eb469e4f" CreationDate="2021-06-20T20:17:43.430" UserId="8263" Comment="125" />
  <row Id="26652" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9074" RevisionGUID="2ec19b37-b90c-4d81-88ad-77fba2096819" CreationDate="2021-06-20T22:18:32.490" UserId="8264" Text="I've seen this myth floating around the internet for a while now and decided to write about it for a project. The only issue was: I couldn't actually find a reputable source for the claim. Wikipedia's [section on the matter][1] reads:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ancient lore states that two children were running through a forest and stumbled upon the funeral of a fairy. The mourning fairies gave the two children two small corgi puppies and the children took them home, thus giving the breed popularity. Stories also state that Corgis played the role of war horses for fairies before they became herding dogs for humans. At the base of the haunches of Corgis, there is a line of slightly rougher fur that ancient Welsh lore states is the saddle line from fairy warriors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But as you can see, there is no citation for this section. Therefore, it would be interesting to see whether this is an urban myth or an under-researched bit of folklore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pembroke_Welsh_Corgi#History" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26653" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="9074" RevisionGUID="2ec19b37-b90c-4d81-88ad-77fba2096819" CreationDate="2021-06-20T22:18:32.490" UserId="8264" Text="Is this a real myth? Pembroke Welsh Corgis as mounts for fairies" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26654" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="9074" RevisionGUID="2ec19b37-b90c-4d81-88ad-77fba2096819" CreationDate="2021-06-20T22:18:32.490" UserId="8264" Text="|animals|welsh|fairies|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26655" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="9074" RevisionGUID="bd1916c8-3a0f-4ea3-b44c-05c1c944ff73" CreationDate="2021-06-20T23:22:27.137" UserId="8264" Comment="edited tags" Text="|animals|welsh|reference-request|fairies|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26656" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9075" RevisionGUID="c2c8df58-7f08-43fa-b7cb-831797db7599" CreationDate="2021-06-20T23:23:40.457" UserId="8264" Text="I was surprised to find that this particular question is difficult to Google. Everyone is familiar with Tinker Bell and Disney's interpretation of her, but was she the first to have these characteristics? The related question on this site, *[Who and what are the winged “faries” that feature in fairytale?][1]*, has an [answer][2] which gives the following quote from [Etymonline][3]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;As a name for the diminutive winged beings in children's stories from early 17c.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This claim itself is not cited (it is not even couched as a claim), but context leads to an essay by Tolkien: [*On Fairy Stories*][4]. There, Tolkien mentions [Michael Drayton's *Nymphidia*][5] (1627) and through the use of &quot;fluttering&quot; implies the existence of the archetype:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Drayton's  Nymphidia  is  one  ancestor  of  that long  line  of  flower-fairies and  fluttering  sprites  with  antennae  that  I  so  disliked  as  a  child&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Having skim-read through it, it appears that for the most part that all the fairies were indeed diminutive but ground-bound - save for the eponymous Nymphidia who appears to fly between lines 313 and 320.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;This thing Nymphidia overheard,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;That on this mad king had a guard,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Not doubting of a great reward&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    For first this business broaching ;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;And through the air away doth go,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Swift as an arrow from the bow,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;To let her sovereign Mab to know,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;    What peril was approaching.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whether this is an accident of translation or not is up to people more knowledgeable than I. The question now becomes: is this the earliest example of the archetype, or was Drayton inspired by another?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, researching this question has given me a new appreciation for Tolkien as an essayist. Thanks [Rubellite Fae][6]!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/2659/8264&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2718/8264&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.etymonline.com/word/fairy&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://coolcalvary.files.wordpress.com/2018/10/on-fairy-stories1.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.luminarium.org/editions/nymphidia.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/users/3955/rubellite-fae" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26657" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="9075" RevisionGUID="c2c8df58-7f08-43fa-b7cb-831797db7599" CreationDate="2021-06-20T23:23:40.457" UserId="8264" Text="What is the earliest example of the tiny, insect-winged fairy archetype?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26658" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="9075" RevisionGUID="c2c8df58-7f08-43fa-b7cb-831797db7599" CreationDate="2021-06-20T23:23:40.457" UserId="8264" Text="|fairies|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26659" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9076" RevisionGUID="0c299263-bb7b-487a-b8d9-268344ba1519" CreationDate="2021-06-21T11:51:16.610" UserId="5511" Text="From &quot;[How Did Fairies Get Their Wings?][1]&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Search Google images for “fairies” and you find pages of diminutive human-like magical creatures with insect wings, often with pointed or animal ears and occasionally with antennae. Too often, this stereotypical fairy is at odds with the literature that produced her. No mention of such features appears in any literature preceding Elizabethan England, nor in Shakespeare, nor Spenser and both used fairies in the same manner as greek mythology did, as either nature spirits (nymphs and satyres and the like) or gods rather than magical creatures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not that mythical worlds could not conceive of winged beings, but these are in fact quite rare. The only winged beings among the Greeks were Nike and various monsters including Pegasus, and these are individuals rather than classes of beings, and almost none of the anthropomorphic beings prior to the Christian era sprouted wings, though these were found frequently in Etruscan tombs which probably contributed to the popular concept of angels and demons throughout the middle ages up to today. But these are not fairies in the literary tradition, and it is only in that tradition where this image of fairies seems to exist.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The appearance of winged fairies seems to have coincided with the industrial revolution, by which point the concept of the fairy story had been relegated to the nursery since adults were supposed to be rational and no longer deal with such matters, so by the Victorian era the concept of fairy became more childlike, and also linked to formal gardens, and these nature spirits of mythology evolved features drawn from children, insects and flowers. These are certainly very much in evidence in todays popular art of fairies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was in keeping with this style that Arthur Rackham provided wings for some of the fairies in his illustrations for A Midsummer Nights Dream. Shakespeare makes no reference in any of their speech. It is, after all, a tale blending greek mythology and English oral tradition of fairy beings so his inclusion of these seem fitting somehow, at least to his Edwardian audience who grew up with Victorian sensibilities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As well in Peter Pan in Kensington Palace, Rackham also provides these generously even though there is no reference to any of the fairies having wings, but plenty of references to the dealings of these with the birds, who are the only truly winged creatures in the story. Although there is no mention of wings, Barrie’s narrative style is more suggestive than explicit and probably expected this feature of fairies to be assumed by his audience.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Edmund Dulac, Sulamith Wulfing and others also contributed many fairy images, but they were less likely to provide them with non-human appendages, but they certainly did provide them with that necessary magical quality to grant us the sense of wonder that fairies are known to bestow.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://artpassions.wordpress.com/2009/06/28/how-did-fairies-get-their-wings/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26660" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9077" RevisionGUID="4c1d8484-f914-4425-89a3-f67938ed855e" CreationDate="2021-06-21T11:59:07.880" UserId="5511" Text="This is most likely a recent invention by Corgi breeders &amp; enthusiasts. From &quot;[Did fairies really ride corgis?][1]&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The earliest source I can find is the poem &quot;Corgi Fantasy&quot; by Anne G. Biddlecombe of Dorset, England. She was one of the top Pembroke breeders  of the 1940s and 1950s, and a founding member of the Welsh Corgi League in London, serving as their secretary for some time.​ She used the pedigree prefix Teekay, under which many of her dogs became show champions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The poem was first published in 1946 (in the first edition of the Welsh Corgi League Handbook?). Two children find some foxlike puppies out in the woods and take them home. Their father tells them that the dogs are a gift from the fairies, who ride them or use them to pull coaches and herd cows. He points out the image of the fairy saddles on the dogs' coats.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This poem soon became popular and was reprinted in numerous magazines and books, crossing over from England to America. It featured at least twice in the American Kennel Gazette, in 1950 and 1956. The artist Tasha Tudor drew illustrations when it appeared in the Illustrated Study of the Pembroke Welsh Corgi Standard (1975).&#xD;&#xA;(Tudor was a well-known fan of Corgis. In the introduction to her 1971 picture book Corgiville Fair, she said, &quot;They are enchanted. You need only to see them by moonlight to realize this.&quot;)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other modern corgi enthusiasts added their own twists with books, poems and stories like &quot;The Fairy Saddle Legend&quot; and &quot;How the Corgi Lost his Tail​.&quot; Many artists have turned their talents to drawing corgis with fairies. The stories mention the corgis serving as the fairies' battle steeds - a fantastic mental image.&#xD;&#xA;As an interesting sidenote, the Pembroke Welsh Corgi Club of America uses the acronym PWCCA. The pwca or pooka is a mischievous spirit in Welsh folklore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pembrokes weren't the only ones with otherworldly connections. &quot;Rhodd Glas: The Blue Gift,&quot; by Pam Brand, appeared in the 1996 handbook of the Cardigan Welsh Corgi Club of America. Brand described how the fairies created the first blue merle Cardigan corgi from a wildflower. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some even say that corgis were used in a war between the Tylwyth Teg and the Gwyllion, but this is hard to verify. In fact, these two fairy types may be the same thing, not separate tribes at all. The farthest I could trace that particular variation was the book Gods, ghosts and black dogs: The fascinating folklore and mythology of dogs,​ published in 2016. Later that same year, a Mental Floss article &quot;The Ancient Connection Between Corgis and Fairies&quot; used the story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://writinginmargins.weebly.com/home/did-fairies-really-ride-corgis" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26661" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5312" RevisionGUID="88cce7c5-fb30-4f6f-a0af-4c4fb94fca68" CreationDate="2021-06-21T16:01:05.103" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="26662" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9078" RevisionGUID="6ac83d6c-9ae0-4d68-be43-239dbf1b2dbb" CreationDate="2021-06-22T07:56:50.043" UserId="5511" Text="As stated [here][1]: &quot;Typhon appears as a black horse-shadow, without a horse to cast it. He contains within himself something called Skagganauk Abyss, **which resembles a black hole**, not a term in common use at the time&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So perhaps composed form Old Norse words with little regard for grammar:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - *skaði* - death, harm&#xD;&#xA; - *ganga* - to go (into), to reside in&#xD;&#xA; - *auka* - increase, augment; add; exceed, surpass;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;as in &quot;the abyss, going into it exceeds death&quot;, which would be a very poetic description for a black hole.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creatures_of_Light_and_Darkness" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26663" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9079" RevisionGUID="8c5661bc-a1c1-406e-9ec3-7bfb85f5c813" CreationDate="2021-06-23T00:47:43.413" UserId="5715" Text="Fairies were not traditionally winged in folklore, and it seems unlikely that Michael Drayton imagined Nymphidia with wings; the first mention of winged fairies is usually dated to 1712. Fairies *were* widely believed to have the capability of flight or high-speed travel. See, for instance, Robert Kirk’s *Secret Commonwealth of Elves, Fauns and Fairies* (1691) where fairies “swim in the air near the earth.” There’s also a widespread story where a man overhears fairies saying “Horse and hattock!” or some other chant, and gets taken along on a ride through the air. (*[Ancient Criminal Trials in Scotland][1]*, p. 604 - see the footnotes for a 17th-century version.) Nymphidia fits into this; she can fly, but Drayton never says she has wings, although later illustrations added them. Tolkien could have been influenced by [Thomas Maybank's illustrations][2] from 1906, or something similar. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the late 16th and early 17th centuries, works like “A Midsummer Night’s Dream” and “Nymphidia” reduced fairies to tiny, harmless beings who might be mistaken for bugs or wear insect-inspired clothing. A wasp is mistaken for a fairy in the poem. So it is certainly fair to call Nymphidia an ancestor of winged fairies even if she's not one herself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Simon Young's 2019 article &quot;[When did fairies get wings][3]?&quot;, in the book *The Paranormal and Popular Culture,* is a helpful in-depth read.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There were some stage costume designs by Inigo Jones around 1605-1610 that may portray winged fairies, but that’s mainly speculation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Alexander Pope's poem “[The Rape of the Lock][4]” (1712) is generally credited with the first appearance of winged fairies:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Some to the sun their insect-wings unfold&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Swift on his sooty pinions flits the Gnome…&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pope’s winged beings are actually sylphs and gnomes (inspired by Paracelsus’ writings on elemental spirits), but these words gradually became synonymous with fairies. In the later 18th century and the Enlightenment era, the supernatural was not as popular in British literature and art. Young credits a specific group of artists including William Blake, Henry Fuseli, and Thomas Stothard, who stood out for focusing on supernatural subjects including fairies and sylphs. They drew fairies with insect or butterfly wings, possibly to differentiate them from angels. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the 19th century, fairies were more popular again, and winged fairies predominated. Young posits that winged fairies developed mainly through visual art. Direct textual references to wings generally came later; one of the earliest that he cites is an anonymous poem from 1805 with the line &quot;Wafted to bliss on fairy wings.&quot; From poetry, literature and theater, winged fairies eventually looped around into modern folklore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It’s not clear what made winged fairies win out, but it may be that it’s an easy way to identify them in pictures. I think it grew out of those Nymphidia-like associations with insects and small size. Young mentions some theories that wings were used to evoke flight, angels, or infantilization.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=f6hBAAAAcAAJ&amp;pg=PA604&amp;dq=%22horse%20and%20hattock%22&amp;hl=en&amp;newbks=1&amp;newbks_redir=0&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwjA8uKTlqzxAhVMVK0KHWzQBTIQ6AEwAHoECAYQAg#v=onepage&amp;q=%22horse%20and%20hattock%22&amp;f=false&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://myfairyland.jimdofree.com/fairy/nymphidia/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.academia.edu/44901811/Young_When_Did_Fairies_Get_Wings_&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/9800/9800-h/9800-h.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26664" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9080" RevisionGUID="1d2ecdd5-53c0-4875-946a-f622e1e0d50c" CreationDate="2021-06-23T11:31:55.543" UserId="5715" Text="This got too long for a comment, so I hope it's all right to post here. The Writing in Margins blog is mine, so I'd like to offer a few addendums.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's always hard to disprove something rather than prove it, but I really haven't found any books of Welsh folklore that mention corgis as fairy steeds. There's Giraldus Cambrensis' *[Itinerary of Archbishop Baldwin Through Wales][1]* (1191) where fairies ride tiny horses and have tiny hunting dogs: &quot;They had horses and greyhounds adapted to their size.&quot; There's no indication that the fairies ride the dogs. If they swapped dogs with horses, he would probably mention that.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Fairy corgis don't appear in Thomas Keightley's *Fairy Mythology*, John Rhys's *Celtic Folklore: Welsh And Manx*, or any of Katharine Briggs' books that I know of. Rhys's Volume 1 does have a line &quot;Like Welsh fairies, the Manx ones had, as the reader will have seen, horses to ride; they had also dogs, just as the Welsh ones had.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In general, European fairies are seen riding horses. If the fairies are miniature, then the horses are miniature (as in *[A Pleasant Treatise of Witches][2]*, 1673). There are exceptions. In Walter Map's 12th century work &quot;De nugis curialium&quot;, King Herla meets a dwarf who rides on a goat. And in the British fairytale of Tom Thumb, first recorded in the 17th century, Tom Thumb (who has a fairy godmother and fairy clothes) rides a mouse. However, I don't know of any cases where dogs are the steeds. I would love to hear if someone else knows of one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For me, the timing says a lot. Corgis have been around for a long time, but they were not formally recognized as a breed until the early 1900s, and it also took time to differentiate the two types, Pembroke and Cardigan. Wikipedia's saying they weren't recognized as distinct until 1934. Anne Biddlecombe was one of the first famous Pembroke Corgi breeders and would have had a strong interest in laying out precisely how Pembrokes were different from Cardigans. The &quot;fairy saddle&quot; is a distinct Pembroke marking. The poem specifies that it's about the &quot;[Pembrokeshire Welsh Corgi][3].&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1148/1148-h/1148-h.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A55138.0001.001/1:4.6?rgn=div2;view=fulltext&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.welshcorgi-news.ch/Leseecke/Poems/Corgi_Fantasy.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26665" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="9080" RevisionGUID="d9fbb835-e057-4c8b-b5c9-244260a5286d" CreationDate="2021-06-23T11:37:20.937" UserId="5715" Comment="added 661 characters in body" Text="This got too long for a comment, so I hope it's all right to post here. The Writing in Margins blog is mine, so I'd like to offer a few addendums.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's always hard to disprove something rather than prove it, but I really haven't found any books of Welsh folklore that mention corgis as fairy steeds. There's Giraldus Cambrensis' *[Itinerary of Archbishop Baldwin Through Wales][1]* (1191) where fairies ride tiny horses and have tiny hunting dogs: &quot;They had horses and greyhounds adapted to their size.&quot; There's no indication that the fairies ride the dogs. If they swapped dogs with horses, he would probably mention that.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Fairy corgis don't appear in Thomas Keightley's *Fairy Mythology*, John Rhys's *Celtic Folklore: Welsh And Manx*, or any of Katharine Briggs' books that I know of. Rhys's Volume 1 does have a line &quot;Like Welsh fairies, the Manx ones had, as the reader will have seen, horses to ride; they had also dogs, just as the Welsh ones had.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In general, European fairies are seen riding horses. If the fairies are miniature, then the horses are miniature (as in *[A Pleasant Treatise of Witches][2]*, 1673). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It hapned one day, as this admirable Semstress sate working in her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Garden, that casting aside her Eye on some fair Flower or Tree, she&#xD;&#xA;&gt; saw, as she thought, a little Gentleman, yet one that shew'd great&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Nobility by his cloathing, come riding towards her from behind a bed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Flowers; thus surprised how any body should come into her Garden,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; but much more, at the stature of the person, who as he was on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Horseback exceeded not a foots length in height; she had reason to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; suspect that her eyes deceived her. But the Gallant spurring his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Horse up the Garden, made it not long, though his Horse was little,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; before he came to her:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are exceptions. In Walter Map's 12th century work &quot;De nugis curialium&quot;, King Herla meets a dwarf who rides on a goat. And in the British fairytale of Tom Thumb, first recorded in the 17th century, Tom Thumb (who has a fairy godmother and fairy clothes) rides a mouse. However, I don't know of any cases where dogs are the steeds. I would love to hear if someone else knows of one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For me, the timing says a lot. Corgis have been around for a long time, but they were not formally recognized as a breed until the early 1900s, and it also took time to differentiate the two types, Pembroke and Cardigan. Wikipedia's saying they weren't recognized as distinct until 1934. Anne Biddlecombe was one of the first famous Pembroke Corgi breeders and would have had a strong interest in laying out precisely how Pembrokes were different from Cardigans. The &quot;fairy saddle&quot; is a distinct Pembroke marking. The poem specifies that it's about the &quot;[Pembrokeshire Welsh Corgi][3].&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1148/1148-h/1148-h.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A55138.0001.001/1:4.6?rgn=div2;view=fulltext&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.welshcorgi-news.ch/Leseecke/Poems/Corgi_Fantasy.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26666" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="9076" RevisionGUID="172c6107-51a0-410a-892e-f10606120b28" CreationDate="2021-06-23T13:29:09.303" UserId="1317" Comment="blockquote the quote" Text="From &quot;[How Did Fairies Get Their Wings?][1]&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Search Google images for “fairies” and you find pages of diminutive human-like magical creatures with insect wings, often with pointed or animal ears and occasionally with antennae. Too often, this stereotypical fairy is at odds with the literature that produced her. No mention of such features appears in any literature preceding Elizabethan England, nor in Shakespeare, nor Spenser and both used fairies in the same manner as greek mythology did, as either nature spirits (nymphs and satyres and the like) or gods rather than magical creatures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Not that mythical worlds could not conceive of winged beings, but these are in fact quite rare. The only winged beings among the Greeks were Nike and various monsters including Pegasus, and these are individuals rather than classes of beings, and almost none of the anthropomorphic beings prior to the Christian era sprouted wings, though these were found frequently in Etruscan tombs which probably contributed to the popular concept of angels and demons throughout the middle ages up to today. But these are not fairies in the literary tradition, and it is only in that tradition where this image of fairies seems to exist.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The appearance of winged fairies seems to have coincided with the industrial revolution, by which point the concept of the fairy story had been relegated to the nursery since adults were supposed to be rational and no longer deal with such matters, so by the Victorian era the concept of fairy became more childlike, and also linked to formal gardens, and these nature spirits of mythology evolved features drawn from children, insects and flowers. These are certainly very much in evidence in todays popular art of fairies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;It was in keeping with this style that Arthur Rackham provided wings for some of the fairies in his illustrations for A Midsummer Nights Dream. Shakespeare makes no reference in any of their speech. It is, after all, a tale blending greek mythology and English oral tradition of fairy beings so his inclusion of these seem fitting somehow, at least to his Edwardian audience who grew up with Victorian sensibilities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;As well in Peter Pan in Kensington Palace, Rackham also provides these generously even though there is no reference to any of the fairies having wings, but plenty of references to the dealings of these with the birds, who are the only truly winged creatures in the story. Although there is no mention of wings, Barrie’s narrative style is more suggestive than explicit and probably expected this feature of fairies to be assumed by his audience.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Edmund Dulac, Sulamith Wulfing and others also contributed many fairy images, but they were less likely to provide them with non-human appendages, but they certainly did provide them with that necessary magical quality to grant us the sense of wonder that fairies are known to bestow.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://artpassions.wordpress.com/2009/06/28/how-did-fairies-get-their-wings/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26667" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6231" RevisionGUID="daf51738-ecc0-467a-8cb1-6f9259056d14" CreationDate="2021-06-23T17:28:50.177" UserId="5715" Comment="added 373 characters in body" Text="I think I’ve come across the same references to the legends being from Native American and Japanese culture. As far as Japanese origins, all I’ve come across are a few online posts referencing to the artist Katsushika Hokusai (1760-1849), who painted some sexually explicit images of women with octopi, such as the 1814 “Dream of the Fisherman’s Wife.”’&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The yokai known as the Jorōgumo is a spider-woman, which is kind of similar at least in the sense of being a hybrid of a human and an eight-limbed creature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as Native American myths, there is a Nuu-chah-nulth (Nootka) tale from the Pacific Northwest titled &quot;Octopus and Raven.&quot; In this tale, both are depicted as humans. Octopus appears as a human woman with her hair arranged in eight long braids, which become powerful arms when she is angered.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - *[Keepers of the Animals: Native American Stories and Wildlife Activities for Children][1]*, Michael J. Caduto and Joseph Bruchac, pp. 73-74.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have not been able to find out for sure what the characters' names are in the original language, but according to [firstvoices.com][2], the Nuu-chah-nulth word for Octopus is tiiłuup. Raven is quʔušin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There also is a Kwakiutl octopus deity named Xa’niyus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other than that, however, the site [native-languages.org][3] (which I have found very useful) says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Octopi do not play a major role in most Native American mythology--&#xD;&#xA;&gt; most coastal tribes consider the octopus to be just another type of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shellfish. In some Northwest Coast tribes of British Columbia and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Alaska, the octopus plays a more prominent role as a medicine animal,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; considered to have formidable powers over the weather or over sickness&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and health.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The cecaelia is a [newly created word dating from 2007][4], inspired by modern depictions of octopus mermaids like Ursula from the Little Mermaid. The word is a distortion of a similar comic book character named Cilia. So technically, there are no legends or original names.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.com/books?id=P9vF9jzTV4EC&amp;newbks=1&amp;newbks_redir=0&amp;dq=nootka%20octopus&amp;source=gbs_navlinks_s&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.firstvoices.com/explore/FV/sections/Data/Nuu-chah-nulth/Nuu%C4%8Daan%CC%93u%C9%AB/Nuu-chah-nulth%20(Barkley)/search/octopus/10/1&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.native-languages.org/legends-octopus.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://writinginmargins.weebly.com/home/the-cecaelia-a-modern-twist-on-mermaid-myth" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26668" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9081" RevisionGUID="a921def3-5f9d-48e6-b383-e21f8a3987d9" CreationDate="2021-06-24T06:20:06.847" UserId="8269" Text="This is attested by Nonnos in the 5th Century CE “Maia was not quite like Semele; for her son, crafty, armed himself like Ares, and looking like him, deluded Hera until he sucked the milk of her breasts.” - Nonnos, Dionysiaca, Books I-XV,  Loeb Classical Library, Harvard University Press, 1984, translated by W.H.D. Rouse (page 321, IX 242)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26670" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="7998" RevisionGUID="89452773-f36d-42a9-9675-19b7e8450409" CreationDate="2021-06-26T21:23:07.397" UserId="8263" Comment="125" />
  <row Id="26671" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9083" RevisionGUID="1dd3e8d8-4b7e-45f6-aa45-415ca58f8854" CreationDate="2021-06-27T08:58:01.170" UserId="7095" Text="I was wondering whether there was a concept of bringing about a perfected world in ancient pagan religions, whether as something the gods were expected to do, something that mankind was expected to do, or a combination of both. I'm wondering specifically about the religions around Mesopotamia, the Levant and North Africa. &quot;Perfect&quot; might have different meanings between cultures, but options might include: A purified world, a world without evil (/evil deities?), world peace, etc. Anything like that? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26672" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="9083" RevisionGUID="1dd3e8d8-4b7e-45f6-aa45-415ca58f8854" CreationDate="2021-06-27T08:58:01.170" UserId="7095" Text="Was there a concept of bringing about a perfect world in ancient pagan religions?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26673" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="9083" RevisionGUID="1dd3e8d8-4b7e-45f6-aa45-415ca58f8854" CreationDate="2021-06-27T08:58:01.170" UserId="7095" Text="|egyptian|mesopotamia|concepts|canaanite|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26674" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9084" RevisionGUID="4dc1c5fc-d6ac-4378-91a4-503678090dd1" CreationDate="2021-06-28T07:34:01.650" UserId="5511" Text="pagan: *a person holding religious beliefs other than those of the main world religions.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since some of these religions effectively were the main religions at the time (and endured longer than any of the current religions have so far) the term &quot;pagan&quot; is inappropriate. Also, the concept of &quot;evil&quot; or &quot;evil deities&quot; is not necessarily something that was part of the pantheon of these religions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Egyptian god [Seth][1] for example, is often referred to as an &quot;evil&quot; god by early Egyptologists to mirror the Christian pantheon of good and evil. However, this is not how the Egyptians perceived Seth. As son of Geb (Earth) and Nut (sky), brother of Osiris, Seth was god of the desert, foreign lands, thunderstorms, eclipses, and earthquakes. Seth was a powerful and often frightening deity, however he was also a patron god of the pharaohs, particularly Ramses the Great.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that this is not all that different from the origins of Yahweh, who in the polytheistic period preceding monotheism in the Judaic religion also was, according to the oldest biblical literature, a storm-and-warrior deity, who leads the heavenly army against Israel's enemies, and worshipped alongside  a variety of Canaanite gods and goddesses, including El, Asherah and Baal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mesopotamian, Canaanite and Egyptian gods generally were considered to have good and bad aspects:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I the Lord do all these things. - Isaiah 45:7 (written in the intermediate period between polytheistic and monotheistic Judaism)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;or were understood as a necessary balance between opposites, a bit like a Mesopotamian version of Yin and Yang, such as the Egyptian god of chaos, [Apophis][2] (who was also the patron god of several pharaohs).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The idea of an evil separate from the &quot;good&quot; god is something that originates in [Zoroastrianism][3] and was adapted into later Judaic (mostly apocalyptic)  writings and thus into early Christianity. This is also where the concept of the &quot;Last Judgment&quot; comes from. In the original text, the [Frashokereti][4] we find the first rendering of a doctrine of a final renovation of the universe, when evil will be destroyed, and everything else will be then in perfect unity with the god Ahura Mazda.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_(deity)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apep&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frashokereti" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26675" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9085" RevisionGUID="b7025b05-78f1-4414-ac82-6e4d60484b3a" CreationDate="2021-06-30T20:09:57.383" UserId="158" Text="In Greek mythology, Poseidon carries a three-pronged spear known as a trident, while his brother Hades carries a two-pronged spear known as a bident. For that matter, the third brother Zeus carries the lightning bolt, which is often represented as a single-pronged spear or javelin. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To the ancient Greeks, was there meant to be a connection or a comparison in these weapons? The 1-2-3 pattern seems deliberate, but in a world where everyone used spears maybe this is just like three action heroes all carrying guns, without any implied connections between them?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26676" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="9085" RevisionGUID="b7025b05-78f1-4414-ac82-6e4d60484b3a" CreationDate="2021-06-30T20:09:57.383" UserId="158" Text="Was there meant to be a connection or comparison between Poseidon's trident and Hades's bident?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26677" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="9085" RevisionGUID="b7025b05-78f1-4414-ac82-6e4d60484b3a" CreationDate="2021-06-30T20:09:57.383" UserId="158" Text="|greek|zeus|hades|poseidon|weapons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26678" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9086" RevisionGUID="6f13c493-a968-4945-8147-e326fac7d592" CreationDate="2021-07-01T15:10:48.647" UserId="8301" Text="The earliest mention of teleportation that I can find is a mention of &quot;matter transfer&quot; in [1877][1], but I'm wondering if there's a concept similar to it in folklore. I found something about pukwudgies being able to [appear/disappear at will][2], but couldn't find any actual myths relating to this. Can anyone help?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://bigthink.com/technology-innovation/history-of-teleportation?rebelltitem=1#:~:text=The%20very%20first%20mention%20of%20a%20teleportation-like%20device%20in%20fiction%20appears%20to%20have%20been%20in%20Edward%20Page%20Mitchell%27s%20The%20Man%20Without%20a%20Body%2C%20published%20in%20The%20Sun%2C%20a%20New%20York%20City%20daily%2C%20in%201877&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pukwudgie#In_mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26679" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="9086" RevisionGUID="6f13c493-a968-4945-8147-e326fac7d592" CreationDate="2021-07-01T15:10:48.647" UserId="8301" Text="Are there any references in mythology/folklore to a concept similar to teleportation?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26680" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="9086" RevisionGUID="6f13c493-a968-4945-8147-e326fac7d592" CreationDate="2021-07-01T15:10:48.647" UserId="8301" Text="|myth-identification|folklore|origins|native-american|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26681" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9087" RevisionGUID="b7c02834-904c-4ffb-97cf-d4b23b363ca2" CreationDate="2021-07-05T10:50:18.670" UserId="5511" Text="In Japanese mythology there is the term 縮地 *[shukuchi][1]*, composed of:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - 縮 : to contract, to shorten&#xD;&#xA; - 地 : earth, location, distance&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Shukichi is a collective term for various mythical techniques of rapid movement. The term is used in mythology, but can also be found in texts on Daoism and Buddhism. It is also a popular ability in several manga and anime.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The related term 縮地脈 *suōdìmài* denotes the power of teleportation attributed to some [xians][2]. Those possessing this ability were believed to be capable of moving vast distances in a single step.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shukuchi&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xian_(Taoism)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26682" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9088" RevisionGUID="3321088b-39f4-45a8-9b60-0e1d34539720" CreationDate="2021-07-06T15:47:15.393" UserId="3989" Text="Norse myth does feature such a belief. See the last seven stanzas of the Vǫluspá or &quot;Sybil's Prophecy,&quot; in the *Elder* or *Poetic Edda,* or Chapters 51-52 of the *Snorra* or *Prose Edda.* The Eddas admittedly are not from the Mediterranean region about which you more specifically ask, and Christian missionary influence/contamination arrived in Iceland together with the literacy that allowed Norse myths to assume their earliest surviving written forms. But the motif or belief in question is definitely there." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26683" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="9088" RevisionGUID="5c509af2-ec63-4785-9c8e-c6f97ef2b1ab" CreationDate="2021-07-06T16:00:23.673" UserId="3989" Comment="added 145 characters in body" Text="Norse myth does feature such a belief. See the last seven stanzas of the [Vǫluspá][1] or &quot;Sybil's Prophecy,&quot; in the *Elder* or *Poetic Edda,* or Chapters 52-53 of the &quot;Gylfaginning&quot; section of [the *Snorra* or *Prose Edda*][1] (scroll forward on this last linked page to p. 82). The Eddas admittedly are not from the Mediterranean region about which you more specifically ask, and Christian missionary influence/contamination arrived in Iceland together with the literacy that allowed Norse myths to assume their earliest surviving written forms. But the motif or belief in question is definitely there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe03.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26684" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9089" RevisionGUID="f6846a7b-eb3e-4546-a7f1-48a17d0f3723" CreationDate="2021-07-06T21:17:38.777" UserId="3989" Text="Achilles tells Telamonian Ajax and his own old tutor Phoenix  of a prophecy: &#xD;&#xA;&gt; For my mother Thetis the goddess of the silver feet tells me&lt;br&gt; I&#xD;&#xA;&gt; carry two sorts of destiny toward the day of my death. Either,&lt;br&gt; if&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I stay here and fight beside the city of the Trojans,&lt;br&gt; my return&#xD;&#xA;&gt; home is gone, but my glory shall be everlasting;&lt;br&gt; but if I return&#xD;&#xA;&gt; home to the beloved land of my fathers,&lt;br&gt; the excellence of my glory&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is gone, but there will be a long life&lt;br&gt; left for me, and my end in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; death will not come to me quickly.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *(Iliad* 9:410&amp;ndash;16 Lattimore trans.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He thus faces a literally existential choice between peace and war. Mom as goddess knows more about such matters than we mortals do. (Well, in some respects&amp;mdash;perhaps less in others.) Same with Hephaestus: when she bespeaks the armor in Book 18, she need not even prompt him to figure this choice at the heart of the shield.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the event, what drives his choice, if we can even call it that, is no such rational preference as he expounds to Ajax and Phoenix; rather it is the &quot;destroying rage&quot; that the poem proposed as its subject within the first two lines.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Odyssey* 11.488&amp;ndash;91, his shade seems to repudiate the heroic choice that his passion made for him:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Don't console me about death, brilliant Odysseus.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;I'd rather be a hired farmhand, slaving for another,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;for a landless man who hasn't much substance,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;than rule all the dead who've perished.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But he immediately proceeds to inquire of his son, and it is that son's prowess in war that seems to gratify the shade." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26685" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="9089" RevisionGUID="57f848a5-52d7-47b5-a678-94f19761b27b" CreationDate="2021-07-06T21:30:18.180" UserId="3989" Comment="Changed and credited Odyssey translator." Text="Achilles tells Telamonian Ajax and his own old tutor Phoenix  of a prophecy: &#xD;&#xA;&gt; For my mother Thetis the goddess of the silver feet tells me&lt;br&gt; I&#xD;&#xA;&gt; carry two sorts of destiny toward the day of my death. Either,&lt;br&gt; if&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I stay here and fight beside the city of the Trojans,&lt;br&gt; my return&#xD;&#xA;&gt; home is gone, but my glory shall be everlasting;&lt;br&gt; but if I return&#xD;&#xA;&gt; home to the beloved land of my fathers,&lt;br&gt; the excellence of my glory&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is gone, but there will be a long life&lt;br&gt; left for me, and my end in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; death will not come to me quickly.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *(Iliad* 9:410&amp;ndash;16 Lattimore trans.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He thus faces a literally existential choice between peace and war. Mom as goddess knows more about such matters than we mortals do. (Well, in some respects&amp;mdash;perhaps less in others.) Same with Hephaestus: when she bespeaks the armor in Book 18, she need not even prompt him to figure this choice at the heart of the shield.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the event, what drives his choice, if we can even call it that, is no such rational preference as he expounds to Ajax and Phoenix; rather it is the &quot;destroying rage&quot; that the poem proposed as its subject within the first two lines.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the underworld, his shade seems to repudiate the heroic choice that his passion made for him:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Noble Odysseus, do not commend death to me.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;I would rather serve on the land of another man&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Who had no portion and not a great livelihood&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Than to rule over all the shades of those who are dead.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;*(Odyssey* 11.488&amp;ndash;91, Cook trans.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But he immediately proceeds to inquire of his son, and it is that son's prowess in war that seems to gratify the shade." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26686" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="9089" RevisionGUID="37883f07-6eae-4779-8cdd-4b2966432699" CreationDate="2021-07-06T21:40:08.723" UserId="3989" Comment="added 79 characters in body" Text="Achilles tells Telamonian Ajax and his own old tutor Phoenix  of a prophecy: &#xD;&#xA;&gt; For my mother Thetis the goddess of the silver feet tells me&lt;br&gt; I&#xD;&#xA;&gt; carry two sorts of destiny toward the day of my death. Either,&lt;br&gt; if&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I stay here and fight beside the city of the Trojans,&lt;br&gt; my return&#xD;&#xA;&gt; home is gone, but my glory shall be everlasting;&lt;br&gt; but if I return&#xD;&#xA;&gt; home to the beloved land of my fathers,&lt;br&gt; the excellence of my glory&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is gone, but there will be a long life&lt;br&gt; left for me, and my end in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; death will not come to me quickly.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *(Iliad* 9:410&amp;ndash;16 Lattimore trans.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He thus faces a literally existential choice between peace and war. Mom as goddess knows more about such matters than we mortals do. (Well, in some respects&amp;mdash;perhaps less in others.) Same with Hephaestus: when she bespeaks the armor in Book 18, she need not even prompt him to figure this choice at the heart of the shield.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the event, what drives his choice, if we can even call it that, is no such rational preference as he expounds to Ajax and Phoenix; rather it is the &quot;destroying rage&quot; that the poem proposed as its subject within the first two lines&amp;mdash;the very Ruin (ἄτη) against which Phoenix has warned him (9.502&amp;ndash;14).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the underworld, his shade seems to repudiate the heroic choice that his passion made for him:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Noble Odysseus, do not commend death to me.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;I would rather serve on the land of another man&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Who had no portion and not a great livelihood&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Than to rule over all the shades of those who are dead.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;*(Odyssey* 11.488&amp;ndash;91 Cook trans.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But he immediately proceeds to inquire of his son, and it is that son's prowess in war that seems to gratify the shade." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26687" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="9089" RevisionGUID="301dda70-e292-4e7e-8129-e47ae491c97b" CreationDate="2021-07-06T21:51:14.270" UserId="3989" Comment="added 96 characters in body" Text="Achilles tells Telamonian Ajax and his own old tutor Phoenix  of a prophecy: &#xD;&#xA;&gt; For my mother Thetis the goddess of the silver feet tells me&lt;br&gt; I&#xD;&#xA;&gt; carry two sorts of destiny toward the day of my death. Either,&lt;br&gt; if&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I stay here and fight beside the city of the Trojans,&lt;br&gt; my return&#xD;&#xA;&gt; home is gone, but my glory shall be everlasting;&lt;br&gt; but if I return&#xD;&#xA;&gt; home to the beloved land of my fathers,&lt;br&gt; the excellence of my glory&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is gone, but there will be a long life&lt;br&gt; left for me, and my end in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; death will not come to me quickly.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *(Iliad* 9:410&amp;ndash;16 Lattimore trans.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He thus faces a literally existential choice between peace and war. Mom as goddess knows more about such matters than we mortals do. (Well, in some respects&amp;mdash;perhaps less in others.) Same with Hephaestus: when she bespeaks the armor in Book 18, she need not even prompt him to figure this choice at the heart of the shield. (I do not share your assumption that lines 483&amp;ndash;89 describe the figuration at the center.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the event, what drives his choice, if we can even call it that, is no such rational preference as he expounds to Ajax and Phoenix; rather it is the &quot;destroying rage&quot; that the poem proposed as its subject within the first two lines&amp;mdash;the very Ruin (ἄτη) against which Phoenix has warned him (9.502&amp;ndash;14).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the underworld, his shade seems to repudiate the heroic choice that his passion made for him:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Noble Odysseus, do not commend death to me.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;I would rather serve on the land of another man&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Who had no portion and not a great livelihood&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Than to rule over all the shades of those who are dead.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;*(Odyssey* 11.488&amp;ndash;91 Cook trans.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But he immediately proceeds to inquire of his son, and it is that son's prowess in war that seems to gratify the shade." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26688" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="9089" RevisionGUID="616ecaaf-9b1d-4b39-8383-9ffe5637df13" CreationDate="2021-07-07T02:37:42.063" UserId="3989" Comment="added 433 characters in body" Text="Achilles tells Agamemnon's ambassadors&amp;mdash;Odysseus, Telamonian Ajax, and his own old tutor Phoenix&amp;mdash;of a prophecy: &#xD;&#xA;&gt; For my mother Thetis the goddess of the silver feet tells me&lt;br&gt; I&#xD;&#xA;&gt; carry two sorts of destiny toward the day of my death. Either,&lt;br&gt; if&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I stay here and fight beside the city of the Trojans,&lt;br&gt; my return&#xD;&#xA;&gt; home is gone, but my glory shall be everlasting;&lt;br&gt; but if I return&#xD;&#xA;&gt; home to the beloved land of my fathers,&lt;br&gt; the excellence of my glory&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is gone, but there will be a long life&lt;br&gt; left for me, and my end in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; death will not come to me quickly.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *(Iliad* 9:410&amp;ndash;16 Lattimore trans.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He thus faces a literally existential choice between peace and war. Mom as goddess knows more about such matters than we mortals do. (Well, in some respects&amp;mdash;perhaps less in others.) Same with Hephaestus: when she bespeaks the armor in Book 18, she need not even prompt him to emblazon this choice at the heart of the shield. (I do not share your assumption that lines 483&amp;ndash;89 describe the figuration at the center.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;True, there has been a murder in the City at Peace, and the murdered man's son has expressed a preference for *lex talionis,* the law of the blood-feud, over accepting a blood-price; but the important thing is that the matter is under adjudication. That is crucial in order for a City at Peace to exist, as demonstrated in the *Oresteia* of Aeschylus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the event, what drives Achilles' choice, if we can even call it that, is no such rational preference as he expounds to Odysseus and Phoenix; rather it is the &quot;destroying rage&quot; that the poem proposed as its subject within the first two lines&amp;mdash;the very Ruin (ἄτη) against which Phoenix has warned him (9.502&amp;ndash;14).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the underworld, his shade seems to repudiate the heroic choice that his passion made for him:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Noble Odysseus, do not commend death to me.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;I would rather serve on the land of another man&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Who had no portion and not a great livelihood&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Than to rule over all the shades of those who are dead.&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;*(Odyssey* 11.488&amp;ndash;91 Cook trans.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But he immediately proceeds to inquire of his son, and it is Odysseus' report of that son's prowess in war that seems to gratify the shade." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26690" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9091" RevisionGUID="a296afe6-fecb-433c-8787-6dadbc4cb42e" CreationDate="2021-07-08T17:01:28.907" UserId="1241" Text="**Are there any ancient prophecies involving alcohol?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I asked this question on Beer, Wine &amp; Spirits SE some two years ago and have not received an answer: [**Prophecies involving alcohol?**][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When we read the Life of Nostradamus, we come across a rather strange little prophecy. Put in a short manner, it states that whoever drank from the skull of Nostradamus would inherit his incredible powers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The introductory sequence had a subtitle 'France 1791' and showed a number of soldiers digging up a grave.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The narrator spoke;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;There was a legend that whoever drank from the skull of Nostradamus would inherit his incredible powers. But for 200 years his grave had remained undisturbed because the legend also said that whoever did so, would immediately die. One night, at the height of the French Revolution, three drunken soldiers set out to test the legend.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; It was not the skeleton that suddenly sobered the soldiers, but the plaque around its neck, with the date: May 1791, which could only have been placed there at the time of burial in 1566, Nostradamus had predicted, 200 years before, the exact date when his body would be dug up.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Anyway one of the soldiers poured some wine into the skull and took a swig. As he did so, a shot rang out, and he dropped, dead as well as drunk. - [**Nostradamus: His Imagined Life.**][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus my question: **Does anyone know of any ancient prophecies (legends, mythologies of folklore) of future events that involve the consumption of drinking alcohol in one form or another?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://alcohol.stackexchange.com/questions/7809/prophecies-involving-alcohol&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://users.adam.com.au/bstett/PaNostradamus12.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26691" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="9091" RevisionGUID="a296afe6-fecb-433c-8787-6dadbc4cb42e" CreationDate="2021-07-08T17:01:28.907" UserId="1241" Text="Ancient prophecies involving alcohol?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26692" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="9091" RevisionGUID="a296afe6-fecb-433c-8787-6dadbc4cb42e" CreationDate="2021-07-08T17:01:28.907" UserId="1241" Text="|folklore|origins|mythohistory|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26693" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1553" RevisionGUID="3dce881d-d138-43a1-ae16-7aafe4263be7" CreationDate="2021-07-08T17:15:40.340" UserId="1241" Comment="added 80 characters in body" Text="You might find this interesting:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Extinct 'Siberian unicorn' may have lived alongside humans, fossil suggests.](https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/mar/29/siberian-unicorn-extinct-humans-fossil-kazakhstan)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It describes a prehistoric rhino-like animal, *Elasmotherium sibiricum* or the ‘Siberian unicorn’ with a single long &quot;horn&quot; on it's nose which may have lived alongside humans." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26694" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9092" RevisionGUID="d1d54ac6-829d-48cf-b086-e2df9bc81de4" CreationDate="2021-07-09T20:56:33.527" UserId="2892" Text="- Why doesn't Achilles simply kill Agamemnon and his army?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Agamemnon seriously disses him, repeatedly and it's an honor/shame society." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26695" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="9092" RevisionGUID="d1d54ac6-829d-48cf-b086-e2df9bc81de4" CreationDate="2021-07-09T20:56:33.527" UserId="2892" Text="Why does Achilles put up with Agamemnon's abuse?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26696" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="9092" RevisionGUID="d1d54ac6-829d-48cf-b086-e2df9bc81de4" CreationDate="2021-07-09T20:56:33.527" UserId="2892" Text="|trojan-war|iliad|achilles|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26697" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1553" RevisionGUID="f006dc89-03fc-453e-9ca3-cb7789d4c90a" CreationDate="2021-07-10T01:22:17.490" UserId="6920" Comment="punctuation " Text="You might find this interesting:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Extinct 'Siberian unicorn' may have lived alongside humans, fossil suggests.](https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/mar/29/siberian-unicorn-extinct-humans-fossil-kazakhstan)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It describes a prehistoric rhino-like animal, *Elasmotherium sibiricum* or the ‘Siberian unicorn’, with a single long &quot;horn&quot; on its nose, which might have lived alongside humans." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26698" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1553" RevisionGUID="f006dc89-03fc-453e-9ca3-cb7789d4c90a" CreationDate="2021-07-10T01:22:17.490" Comment="Proposed by 6920 approved by 2682, 1241 edit id of 1870" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26700" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="9091" RevisionGUID="1a41355a-5930-4901-815d-a8de8c885e79" CreationDate="2021-07-10T15:35:35.820" UserId="1241" Comment="edited body" Text="**Are there any ancient prophecies involving alcohol?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I asked this question on Beer, Wine &amp; Spirits SE some two years ago and have not received an answer: [**Prophecies involving alcohol?**][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When we read the Life of Nostradamus, we come across a rather strange little prophecy. Put in a short manner, it states that whoever drank from the skull of Nostradamus would inherit his incredible powers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The introductory sequence had a subtitle 'France 1791' and showed a number of soldiers digging up a grave.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The narrator spoke;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;There was a legend that whoever drank from the skull of Nostradamus would inherit his incredible powers. But for 200 years his grave had remained undisturbed because the legend also said that whoever did so, would immediately die. One night, at the height of the French Revolution, three drunken soldiers set out to test the legend.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; It was not the skeleton that suddenly sobered the soldiers, but the plaque around its neck, with the date: May 1791, which could only have been placed there at the time of burial in 1566, Nostradamus had predicted, 200 years before, the exact date when his body would be dug up.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Anyway one of the soldiers poured some wine into the skull and took a swig. As he did so, a shot rang out, and he dropped, dead as well as drunk. - [**Nostradamus: His Imagined Life.**][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus my question: **Does anyone know of any ancient prophecies (legends, mythologies or folklore) of future events that involve the consumption of drinking alcohol in one form or another?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://alcohol.stackexchange.com/questions/7809/prophecies-involving-alcohol&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://users.adam.com.au/bstett/PaNostradamus12.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26701" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9093" RevisionGUID="fe30963d-b16f-4f09-a950-bfeaf33d5418" CreationDate="2021-07-10T23:15:50.580" UserId="8334" Text="[On the Hinduism Stackexchange][1], there's mention of a myth in the Markandeya Purana where the Earth is initially shaky but is stabilized later on when mountains are installed into it. I was also able to find another version of the myth in the Rigveda. For example, Rigveda 7.99.3: “Both these worlds, Viṣṇu, hast thou stayed asunder, and firmly fixed the earth with pegs around it.” (These pegs are mountains, and I found a number of other statements in the Rigveda about this.) I also know that the idea that God established the mountains as pegs in the Earth to stabilize them during creation is in the Qur'an. Most recently, I found that the myth is also found in Zoroastrianism. I know of two texts it's found in: the Selections of Zadspram and the Greater Bundahishn, 6.c.1-3. Both of them involve Ahriman.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anyways, given that this seems to have been a known myth in these religions and in at least two Zoroastrian texts, my question is: how early did this myth of mountains being used to stabilize a shaky Earth appear in Zoroastrianism? Any relevant information would be a help.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If it's any help, I also found that the *Book of Arda Ziraf* in 53.4-7 mentions that Ahriman would cause the Earth to shake, though it doesn't mention the part where mountains are then established and stop it from shaking.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/22566/does-rig-veda-3-30-4-say-the-earth-is-immoveable/22600#22600" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26702" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="9093" RevisionGUID="fe30963d-b16f-4f09-a950-bfeaf33d5418" CreationDate="2021-07-10T23:15:50.580" UserId="8334" Text="How early is the Zoroastrian myth of mountains stabilizing a shaky Earth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26703" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="9093" RevisionGUID="fe30963d-b16f-4f09-a950-bfeaf33d5418" CreationDate="2021-07-10T23:15:50.580" UserId="8334" Text="|creation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26704" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7963" RevisionGUID="5a9767aa-fc01-4575-8b98-618ea475eb0b" CreationDate="2021-07-11T15:42:20.520" UserId="4962" Comment="deleted 554 characters in body" Text="I would say Argo was not self aware. Instead, Zeus “... *spoke through the wood taken from one of his Dodonian oaks, as stated in the first book of the Argonautica (Apollonius of Rhodes, 2009), when a talking beam that Athena had made from a Dodonian oak and fitted in the middle of Argo’s keel, spoke with a terrible voice that frightened the Argonauts.*”  - [Oracle Trees in the Ancient Hellenic World][1]&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]:https://www.jstor.org/stable/41761723" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26705" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9094" RevisionGUID="fbdd5d03-9dd7-4f54-bc91-83ababd86ff0" CreationDate="2021-07-11T16:59:31.080" UserId="4962" Text="According to [Wikipedia][1]&#xA;&#xA;&gt; The Romans drew on Etruscan traditions for the interpretation of these signs. A tile found at Urbs Salvia in Picenum depicts an unusual composite Jove, &quot;fairly bristling with weapons&quot;: a lightning bolt, a bident, and a trident, uniting the realms of sky, earth, and sea, and representing the three degrees of ominous lightning (see also Summanus).&#xA;&#xA;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bident?wprov=sfti1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26706" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="9093" RevisionGUID="fe1d7535-7d8a-42fa-b01a-888a78a6d04d" CreationDate="2021-07-12T09:03:07.913" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="|creation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26710" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="5653" RevisionGUID="694a4b30-c3af-48e0-9673-892d3262d961" CreationDate="2021-07-12T09:04:50.467" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="26712" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="5457" RevisionGUID="3d01c97e-d549-4cb1-8e85-aacd40bb1a0a" CreationDate="2021-07-12T09:05:08.457" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="26717" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="8046" RevisionGUID="69529a70-ff88-4372-b77b-16e176e81d96" CreationDate="2021-07-12T09:07:59.770" UserId="108" Comment="126" />
  <row Id="26729" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9095" RevisionGUID="3f28c140-88e7-466a-8585-649b4b5603c3" CreationDate="2021-07-12T23:51:29.370" UserId="398" Text="Because Athena forbids it, and says he will be rewarded if he obeys. From the *Iliad* [book 1](https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad1.php#anchor_Toc328052748):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While Agamemnon spoke, the son of Peleus was gnawed by pain, and the heart in his shaggy breast was torn; whether to draw the sharp blade at his side, scatter the crowd, and kill the son of Atreus, or curb his wrath and restrain his spirit. As he pondered this in his mind, his great sword half-unsheathed, Athene descended from the sky, sent by Hera, the white-armed goddess, who loved and cared for both the lords alike. Athene, standing behind the son of Peleus, tugged at his golden hair, so that only he could see her, no one else. Achilles, turning in surprise, knew Pallas Athene at once, so terrible were her flashing eyes. He spoke out, with winged words, saying: ‘Why are you here, daughter of aegis-bearing Zeus? Is it to witness Agamemnon’s arrogance? I tell you and believe that this son of Atreus’ will pay soon with his life for his insolent acts.’  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The goddess, bright-eyed Athene, replied: ‘I came from the heavens to quell your anger, if you’ll but listen: I was sent by the goddess, white-armed Hera, who in her heart loves and cares for you both alike. **Come, end this quarrel, and sheathe your sword. Taunt him with words of prophecy; for I say, and it shall come to pass, that three times as many glorious gifts shall be yours one day for this insult. Restrain yourself, now, and obey.’**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then swift-footed Achilles, in answer, said: ‘Goddess, a man must attend to your word, no matter how great his heart’s anger: that is right. Whoever obeys the gods will gain their hearing.’ " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26730" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="9095" RevisionGUID="d6d9b8f8-1ff0-4ce4-87de-9ab0a559eab3" CreationDate="2021-07-13T00:01:35.877" UserId="398" Comment="added 1922 characters in body" Text="Because Athena forbids it, and says he will be rewarded if he obeys. From the *Iliad* [book 1](https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad1.php#anchor_Toc328052748):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While Agamemnon spoke, the son of Peleus was gnawed by pain, and the heart in his shaggy breast was torn; whether to draw the sharp blade at his side, scatter the crowd, and kill the son of Atreus, or curb his wrath and restrain his spirit. As he pondered this in his mind, his great sword half-unsheathed, Athene descended from the sky, sent by Hera, the white-armed goddess, who loved and cared for both the lords alike. Athene, standing behind the son of Peleus, tugged at his golden hair, so that only he could see her, no one else. Achilles, turning in surprise, knew Pallas Athene at once, so terrible were her flashing eyes. He spoke out, with winged words, saying: ‘Why are you here, daughter of aegis-bearing Zeus? Is it to witness Agamemnon’s arrogance? I tell you and believe that this son of Atreus’ will pay soon with his life for his insolent acts.’  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The goddess, bright-eyed Athene, replied: ‘I came from the heavens to quell your anger, if you’ll but listen: I was sent by the goddess, white-armed Hera, who in her heart loves and cares for you both alike. **Come, end this quarrel, and sheathe your sword. Taunt him with words of prophecy; for I say, and it shall come to pass, that three times as many glorious gifts shall be yours one day for this insult. Restrain yourself, now, and obey.’**  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then swift-footed Achilles, in answer, said: ‘Goddess, a man must attend to your word, no matter how great his heart’s anger: that is right. Whoever obeys the gods will gain their hearing.’ &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The whole honor/shame dichotomy is a big question, but it's not quite accurate to say that the Greeks simply killed whomever was shaming them. That's not how it works. The point of honor/shame is that Achilles needs to do what will bring him honor, and there is no honor in killing the king - attacking above your station is actually a form of hubris and would only bring him more shame. Shame is not internal: it's what others think of him. Disregarding the heroic code is what is shameful, as is seen from [Ajax's words](https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad9.php#anchor_Toc239244217) in the embassy scene.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; With this he signaled to Patroclus, with a nod of his head, to spread a comfortable bed for Phoenix, so the others might take the hint and leave the hut. Ajax, godlike son of Telamon, then spoke: ‘Odysseus of many wiles, Zeus-born son of Laertes, we should go, since we achieve nothing by staying here. We must hasten to give the news to the Greeks, who no doubt await us, bad though it is. Achilles’ proud heart has raised him to such a pitch of fury he forgets, harsh man that he is, his comrades’ love, with which we in the fleet honoured him above all others. He shows no pity! Yet a man accepts blood-money even from his brother’s or his son’s killer, and the killer is not expelled from the land if he pays the price to the next of kin, whose pride and feelings are appeased by such compensation. Achilles, the gods have hardened and poisoned your heart, all because of a girl, while we offer you seven, the best there are by far, and a host of gifts besides. So be gracious and show respect for your house, since we represent the Danaans here, and are keen to remain your closest and dearest friends of all the Achaeans.’&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;His refusal to concede is actually what is bringing him dishonor, and if he had made amends and gone back into battle, he would have been honored even more." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26732" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="7669" RevisionGUID="93a547f6-7822-4922-a19c-44fba37790d8" CreationDate="2021-07-14T19:04:25.537" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="26733" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9097" RevisionGUID="8dd978da-9a6e-403a-9984-a73862570c3b" CreationDate="2021-07-15T08:51:17.197" UserId="5511" Text="In anthropology, this is called &quot;sacralization of the landscape&quot; (and the elements that constitute it). It can be found in many classic texts, one of the oldest being the [山海经 (Shan Hai Jing) - Classic of Mountains and Seas][1] 4th century BCE&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the dating of the Zoroastrian myths you mention:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The Selections of Zadspram are generally thought to be contemporaneous with Book 7 of [the Denkard][2], which details the &quot;legend of Zoroaster&quot;. The latter is dated around the 7th century CE.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The Greater Bundahishn is also thought to be roughly contemporary with the  Denkard.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both works are partially based on older stories recorded in the [Avesta][3]. The surviving texts of the Avesta, as they exist today, derive from a single master copy produced by collation and recension in the Sasanian Empire (224–651 CE).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The problem with this dating is it only reflects the oldest written recordings we know of the myths, which are based on an older oral tradition. But unlike similar situations in -for example - Buddhism and Islam, we do not have a clear and substantiated idea on how long the period is between the generation of the oral tradition and the recording of the oral myths into writing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The similarity with the Rigveda myths is not surprising: from comparative linguistic analysis of the Avesta and the Rigveda, it is clear that both collections are from the period after the proposed date of separation (c. 2nd millennium BCE) of the Proto-Indo-Iranians into their respective Indic and Iranian branches.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_of_Mountains_and_Seas&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denkard#Book_7&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avesta" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26734" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9098" RevisionGUID="cecf15f4-efe1-456c-b860-c10de65455fe" CreationDate="2021-07-15T16:04:51.323" UserId="8348" Text="Amalthea was the goat that fed Zeus when Rhea wanted to protect him from Cronus, hiding him in a cave in Crete. Other versions say that she was actually a nymph, who was in charge of feeding him with goat's milk. &#xD;&#xA;But in some parts I have found enigmatic references that say that Amalthea was a &quot;terrifying&quot; animal, and that even the Titans and the gods feared her. I have tried to go deeper into this aspect, but perhaps I have not known how to search well, since I have not found anything.&#xD;&#xA;Where does it come from that Amalthea was so terrible? I know that with Amalthea's skin, Zeus later made his shield, the aegis, which he later gave to his daughter Athena. Was Amalthea not a normal goat? Was she more of a monster than a goat, perhaps?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26735" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="9098" RevisionGUID="cecf15f4-efe1-456c-b860-c10de65455fe" CreationDate="2021-07-15T16:04:51.323" UserId="8348" Text="Why was the goat Amalthea such a dreaded animal?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26736" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="9098" RevisionGUID="cecf15f4-efe1-456c-b860-c10de65455fe" CreationDate="2021-07-15T16:04:51.323" UserId="8348" Text="|zeus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26737" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9099" RevisionGUID="4128f487-6d41-4bd9-921e-26ed28b58c6a" CreationDate="2021-07-15T23:24:52.797" UserId="398" Text="Without citing any particular references, it will be hard to know quite what is meant. There isn't anything particular concerning this in [Theoi](https://www.theoi.com/Ther/AixAmaltheia.html) (a fairly comprehensive collation of primary sources) or [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalthea_(mythology)), so it could be anything from pure fabrication to a misunderstanding to a rare or late tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, the only thing I could think of that relates to Amalthea and being terrifying is the use of her hide in crafting the aegis, which as you can see below, when combined with the head of Aex the Gorgon, provided him a protective shield in the war of the Titans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pseudo-Hyginus, Astronomica 2. 13 (trans. Grant) (Roman mythographer C2nd A.D.):  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;But when Jupiter [Zeus], confident in his youth, was preparing for **war against the Titanes**, oracular reply was given to him that if he wished to win, **he should carry on the war protected with the skin of a goat, aigos, and the head of the Gorgon. The Greeks call this the aegis.** When this was done, as we have shown above, Jupiter, overcoming the Titanes, gained possession of the kingdom . . . Afterwards he gave to Minerva [Athena] the aegis with which he had been protected.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, before Zeus gave it to Athena, he used it to fight the Titans. This is likely the origin of the confusion about her being terrifying." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26738" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9100" RevisionGUID="49697f22-5178-4b06-b7dc-81e52790a834" CreationDate="2021-07-16T03:41:01.220" UserId="2682" Text="**Regarding Different Versions of Goat-Stuff**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a great variety of traditions surrounding the birth and rearing of Zeus, and among these, as you have already observed, there are different renditions involving a she-goat or a similarly named creature. From what I have found, these renditions can be broken down into three main categories of versions. The commonest of them is the one in which Amalthea is a she-goat that suckles the baby Zeus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You have also noted the second most common version, in which Zeus is still suckled by a she-goat, but Amalthea is the name, not of the goat, but rather of a young woman, or a nymph of some sort, who has a she-goat as a pet, or as a head of livestock, from which she obtains milk to feed the baby god. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the third version Amalthea seems to get replaced by an altogether different sort of creature who has a &quot;goat-like&quot; name, i.e. containing the root word *aig-* or *aix*, generally understood as simply meaning &quot;goat.&quot; From all accounts the nanny-goat in the other two versions seems to be an ordinary mortal garden-variety bovid, nothing scary or monstrous at all about her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Two ancient writers, however, tell a couple of stories about a different order of entity who seems to be the equivalent of Zeus' nanny-goat, but deviating quite dramatically from the animal who supplies him with milk in his infancy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Aigis Monster**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Book 3 of the *Library of History*, Diodorus Siculus provides a fairly unique version of the story of the Titans' War, in which (in Ch. 68) Amaltheia is &quot;a maiden of unusual beauty&quot; with whom the Libyan king Ammon (= the African form of Zeus) has an extramarital affair &quot;near the Keraunian Mountains&quot;. The name of the mountains would appear to be a reference to the Greek word for &quot;horn(s),&quot; i.e. like those of the goat Amalthea from the commonest version of her story. This maiden Amalthea then bears Ammon a son named Dionysos [Dionysus], who grows up to fight a war against the Titans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further on in Ch. 70, Athena, who here is also a Libyan goddess, has grown up in the region, training in various skills and being &quot;cultivated... in the arts of war&quot;. Gaia, the Earth, had given birth to &quot;a certain frightful monster&quot; named Aigis [Aegis], which &quot;breathed forth terrible flames of fire from its mouth&quot;. Emerging first in Phrygia, the monster burned a path of destruction throughout the entire region, across the Taurus Mountains and all the way to India, turning back around to scorch a swath of flames via Mt Lebanon, through Egypt and on into Libya itself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Athena, with the use of intelligence, courage and bodily strength, slays the beast and then wears its hide. For this reason Gaia sends the Giants to fight against the gods &quot;but they were destroyed at a later time by Zeus, Athena and Dionysos,&quot; together with the other deities. The idea seems to be that the Aigis worn by Athena simply received its name directly from the monster whose skin it was.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Goat*-Gorgon?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, though, the version that you seem to be referring to does not seem to have any character actually named Amalthea in it, although it appears in a passage from the Roman writer Hyginus in which he is narrating different myths explaining the origins of the &quot;goat-signs&quot; in the constellations Auriga and Capra, which include the tales of the nanny-goat/ nymph-princess Amalthea. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Having gone through three different renditions of that mainstream myth in *Poetica Astronomica* 2.13, he goes on to mention a daughter of Helios (the Sun), whose name was Aix [Aex]. She, he says, had an exceedingly beautiful body, &quot;but in contrast to this beauty, had a most horrible face. Terrified by it, the Titans begged Terra [*= Gaia*] to hide her,&quot; to which the earth-goddess acquiesced by concealing Aix &quot;in a cave in the island of Crete&quot;, where she later became Zeus's nurse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The narration then jumps to an oracle in which Zeus, on his way to war against the Titans, is told that in order to win he has to protect himself &quot;with the skin of a goat and the head of the Gorgon&quot; and that the Greeks call this the *aegis*. The hints are more implicit than spelled out by the storyteller but presumably the idea is that Aix is the Gorgon in question and that she was some sort of goat-like creature. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Maybe she was a gorgeous woman with the head of a monster goat(?)... More enigmatically, we are not told whether Zeus kills her in order to wear her skin or if she has already died previous to the war, or such. At any rate, Zeus follows the oracle's instructions and thus wins the war. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Covering the remaining bones of the goat with a skin, he gave life to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; them and memorialised them, picturing them with stars. Afterwards he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gave to Minerva [*Athena*] the aegis with which he had been protected&#xD;&#xA;&gt; when he won.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyginus's Aix/Aex, from my understanding, is the equivalent of Diodorus Siculus's Aigis monster. According to Theoi.com's interpretation of Aix:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Like the aigis-shield itself, she symbolised the storm-cloud. Her name&#xD;&#xA;&gt; means both &quot;Terrible Goat&quot; and &quot;Fierce Storm&quot; for the Greek word&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *aigis* contains the double-meaning of &quot;stormy&quot; and &quot;goatish&quot;...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Gorgo Aix, was also described as the nurse of Zeus, and in this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; case she was a monstrous counterpart of the goat Amaltheia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Distinctions**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Based on the narratives, the nanny-goat Amalthea herself is a positively benign animal, symbolising a source of nourishment and plenty, since one of her horns, upon breaking off, is supposed to produce whichever food or drink that its bearer desires.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The stories featuring the monster Aigis, and the Sun's daughter Aix, are essentially alternate versions in which no goat character remains, and the only one featuring a creature literally named &quot;Goat,&quot; of whom the Titans are terrified, is Hyginus's yarn in which a daughter of the Sun is not an animal but a sort of horrifically beautiful &quot;Gorgon.&quot;      " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26739" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9101" RevisionGUID="9c8290c9-fca8-4196-9e72-5f04dd47a2f9" CreationDate="2021-07-16T05:14:43.057" UserId="6739" Text="I am doing research on the ancient Egyptian (Kemetic) gods, and am currently working on Sobek (Sbk). This made me wonder what the word for crocodile is in ancient Egyptian. I have found db or dbj, and msha as the words for crocodile. Now I need to know what the plural forms are. Based on sites I have found online, [here|https://ancientegyptonline.co.uk/hieroglyphs-tutorial2/], the possible plural for db would be db-w and msha would be msha-w. I am not well versed in ancient Egyptian, so this is just guess-work at this point. Can anyone confirm this if it is correct, or if it isn't, what is the right answer?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26740" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="9101" RevisionGUID="9c8290c9-fca8-4196-9e72-5f04dd47a2f9" CreationDate="2021-07-16T05:14:43.057" UserId="6739" Text="What is the ancient Egyptian word for crocodiles?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26741" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="9101" RevisionGUID="9c8290c9-fca8-4196-9e72-5f04dd47a2f9" CreationDate="2021-07-16T05:14:43.057" UserId="6739" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26742" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9102" RevisionGUID="f909efaa-1eb9-4228-bd52-e146a854e637" CreationDate="2021-07-16T22:11:58.723" UserId="5511" Text="There's two &quot;plurals&quot; to consider: [collective nouns][1] and quantitative plurals&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Collective nouns:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Quantitative plurals:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Egyptians employed a number of methods to indicate that a word was plural. The most common is the plural determinative (three strokes). However, it is also common to find the determinative or logogram repeated three times. The single consonant sounds “w” and “u” also indicate that a noun is plural in hieroglyphs (while in english “boy” becomes “boys”, in hieroglyphs “sn” becomes “sn-w”). However, the sign is often omitted to save space.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can apply the plural as indicated in the examples above to:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][5]][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][6]][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][7]][7]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: all this is Middle-Egyptian &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_noun&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/h25UE.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/SX5ke.png&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/gTU59.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/dgIyr.png&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/rIlIa.png&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/BKE06.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26747" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9104" RevisionGUID="933819e7-ed21-4fd3-a54e-5d777adc8dbc" CreationDate="2021-07-19T00:36:20.730" UserId="5806" Text="Let's take a philosophical look at the Ancient Greek flood myth.&#xD;&#xA;When human being angered Zeus  because of the filth they had in their hearts, he had to clean the Earth from such filth. &#xD;&#xA;Now when was the last time you cleaned something using fire or plague?&#xD;&#xA;The flood, a Cataclysm, was a disasterous but also cleansing. I think that is the point. Is this true only for Deukalion?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Same goes in my opinion with Noah's myth. Noah, the pure human, along with his wife, get in the ark and God causes the Cataclysm to cleanse the Earth from all the filthy in heart people. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is symbolic. People create myths they can understand. People clean themselves and their clothes using water.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A flood can clean. Wrath of God, that caused the flood, derives from the filth of human hearts. That is my opinion on the question asked, I hope I helped." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26750" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9105" RevisionGUID="83caab4f-2725-4bff-81a1-94d5bd3516c0" CreationDate="2021-07-28T16:16:31.663" UserId="8403" Text="When Most of the Proofs Direct Queen Heo Hwang ok came from Tamilnadu(Ayutha - Kanyakumari). Why its assumed she came from Ayodhya?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26751" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="9105" RevisionGUID="83caab4f-2725-4bff-81a1-94d5bd3516c0" CreationDate="2021-07-28T16:16:31.663" UserId="8403" Text="What is the Reason Korean Queen Heo Hwang Ok assumed to come from Ayodhya?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26752" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="9105" RevisionGUID="83caab4f-2725-4bff-81a1-94d5bd3516c0" CreationDate="2021-07-28T16:16:31.663" UserId="8403" Text="|korean|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="26756" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="9107" RevisionGUID="1cd581cf-d5eb-4145-af6f-39ecdcafda5f" CreationDate="2021-07-29T01:22:53.190" UserId="3138" Text="I just did some digging on the same, after listening to Neil Gaiman's *Norse Mythology* which similarly to the text you read.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I came across [an article by Sigurd Grieg in *Norsk Sjakblad* from 1936][1] which roughly translated is headed &quot;Chess and other boardgames in Norway during the Viking and Middle Ages&quot;. I'm not going to recapitulate the entire thing here (though if you can read Norwegian I highly recommend it), but just summarize a couple of the main points which relate to question asked.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;About the aftermath of Ragnarok it, like the other answer here, quotes [*Völuspá*][2] and only describe the playing pieces as golden without referencing a game. It also mentions two other poems where boardgames are mentioned, *[Rígsþula][3]* from the Poetic Edda, and a poem relating to [Þorbjörn Hornklofi][4] which I assume is either *[Glymdrápa][5]* or more likely *[Haraldskvæði][6]*. The latter is a composite poem, with parts written by Thorbjørn Hornklov and other parts attributed to Tjodolf from Kvine og Audunn Illskælda.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Rigsthula board games are described as a pastime of nobles, while in the other poem the hirdmen of [Harald Fairhair][7] are playing dice outside his hall. As far as I can tell there is no mention of chess being played anywhere in [the skaldic poetry][8].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With regards to knowledge of chess in the Viking Age the article states that chess came to Spain from North Africa in 1000s, from where it quickly spread to the rest of Europe, and that it was particularly popular among the nobility and clergy. It further states that one of the oldest chess sets discovered in Europe was found on the Hebridees in 1831 and is dated to the early 1200s. Based on the clothing depicted on the pieces it is clear that they were carved on either Iceland or in Norway, indicated that chess was well known in these regions by then. However this is ~150 years after the Viking Age, so it doesn't give any indication of whether the Vikings were playing it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.sjakk.no/filarkiv/nsf/norsk_sjakkblad/arkiv/nsb%201936-6-7.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lusp%C3%A1&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%ADgs%C3%BEula&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Eorbj%C3%B6rn_Hornklofi&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glymdr%C3%A1pa&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrafnsm%C3%A1l&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harald_Fairhair&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://skaldic.abdn.ac.uk/m.php?p=text&amp;i=1143" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27756" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="9093" RevisionGUID="d3582480-d1c8-4362-ac9f-2e546ad56e41" CreationDate="2021-07-29T03:04:31.690" UserId="8334" Comment="condensing" Text="I found that this myth is in Zoroastrianism (Selections of Zadspram and the Greater Bundahishn). How early did this myth of mountains being used to stabilize a shaky Earth appear in Zoroastrianism? Any relevant information would be a help.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/22566/does-rig-veda-3-30-4-say-the-earth-is-immoveable/22600#22600" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27761" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10108" RevisionGUID="1d601758-c17b-4f56-b0d1-a12dc92b95f9" CreationDate="2021-07-30T13:36:58.483" UserId="8408" Text="What about Hermes in the greek mythology? His appearances and disappearances are somewhat different from those visions the gods projected simulating their presence, right?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27767" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1007" RevisionGUID="aa5a36c7-8691-4527-87b8-b58932ddfc5a" CreationDate="2021-08-03T14:46:24.120" UserId="398" Comment="spelling" Text="The problem with this question is that it asks for comparisons to a &quot;canonical Chinese mythology&quot; which is not really a thing. However, the basic theme of traditional Chinese folklore does feature an emperor in heaven who is essentially a mirror of the emperor on Earth. The depiction of the Jade Emperor in *Journey to the West* matches much of this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**1. Slackers are punished severely.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We see this in, for example, the tragic love story of the [Weaver and the Cowherd](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Weaver_Girl_and_the_Cowherd). An ancient version of this story, [recorded in around 6th century](http://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=en&amp;res=983262), says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 天河之東有織女，天帝之子也。年年機杼勞役，織成雲錦天衣，容貌不暇整。帝憐其獨處，許嫁河西牽牛郎，嫁後遂廢機杼。天帝怒，責另歸東西，但使一年一度相會&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; On the east bank of the Celestial River, there is a weaver. She is the child of the Celestial Emperor. Year after year she toiled to weave celestial garments, looking busy and disheveled. The Emperor felt sorry for her loneliness, so he married her to the Cowherd from the west bank of the river. She stopped weaving after the wedding. The Emperor was enraged, and punished them by making them return to east and west separately. But he had them meet once per year.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here we see the Celestial Emperor reacting to her daughter &lt;s&gt;going on honeymoon&lt;/s&gt; slacking off with inhumane harshness. This is despite the marriage being his own idea and all her previous years of hard work. I would also argue this demonstrates inflexibility and a quickness to anger on the Emperor's part, just as you saw in the novel's version.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**2. The powers of the Jade Emperor is purely authority**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Jade Emperor is essentially the administrator of the heavenly court. Just as the Chinese would not expect the temporal emperor to personally arrest vandalising teenagers, the Jade Emperor metes out punishment and rewards not by doing any work himself, but by exercising his authority as the ruler of heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An example is the story of Lightning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Once upon a time, Thunder worked alone, striking down people who were wasteful from the clouds. Back then, an impoverished but [pious](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filial_piety) woman struggles to provide her mother-in-law with the best. To save on costs, the woman serves the mother white rice, then retreats to the kitchen to eat only [bran](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bran) herself. The mother however suspected the pious woman of keeping the good food for herself.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So one day, she barged in to see for herself what the daughter has been eating. Discovering that the daughter-in-law has been eating bran, the mother was heartbroken. She told the daughter to dump the bran and come eat the good rice with her. Unfortunately, it was  a stormy night and Thunder was patrolling. Upon seeing the pious daughter throwing the bran away, he struck her down, thinking she was wasting perfectly good food.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When the Celestial Court heard of this miscarriage of justice, the Emperor was filled with great sympathy. To reward the daughter for her piety, he ennobled her in heaven as Lady Lightning. To prevent another tragedy like hers from happening, Lightning accompanies Thunder out on patrols, and illuminates the earth before the thunder strikes.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; That's why thunders are always preceded by lightning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many variations to this story, but the ending is essentially identical: *the Jade Emperor gives a victim &quot;justice&quot; by using his authority as administrator of the Celestial Court* to give her a job in Heaven. Not to raise her from the dead, or give her family a fortune, or do anything really that involves using any sort of divine power. Instead, he issued a decree.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**3. The Jade Emperor is short-tempered.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Chinese have an ancient saying: `伴君如伴虎`, literally, *accompanying the ruler is like keeping a tiger company*. Chinese Emperors were notorious for being ill-tempered with little regard for just about anyone else. Since social interactions in the Celestial Realm were imagined based on realities, the Jade Emperor seems to have inherited such traits.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An illustration of these traits in folklore [is the legend](http://ortho.clmed.ncku.edu.tw/~cjlin/news/8901/890112.htm) that the Immortal Poet [Li Bai](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Bai) was the [Great White Golden Star](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taibai_Jinxing) in heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 李白是天上太白金星，負責昇爐煉丹。太白金星嗜好杯中物，有一天在喝得酩酊大醉之後踢翻了煉丹爐。玉帝大怒，將太白金星貶為凡人，降生於唐朝時的李白&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Great White Golden Star works as an alchemist in heaven. Being an alcoholic, he got drunk one day and accidentally knocked over an alchemy pot. The Jade Emperor was enraged, and stripped him of his godhood, sending him to be reborn on earth as the poet Li Bai.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Somewhat of an overreaction." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27768" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10109" RevisionGUID="9105ed32-8824-4098-ae2a-867de5f89d03" CreationDate="2021-08-04T02:15:45.653" UserId="3208" Text="Today I was going through an old book on Greek sculpture and I notice that a number of pre-classical Greek statues feature [Silenus][1] and form in which he is depicted, full frontal nudity with tongue sticking out is remarkably similar to Egyptian reliefs of Bes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, no mention of this resemblance is made on the Wikipedia article for Silenus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there a relationship between the two gods that has been studied?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silenus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27769" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10109" RevisionGUID="9105ed32-8824-4098-ae2a-867de5f89d03" CreationDate="2021-08-04T02:15:45.653" UserId="3208" Text="Silenus similar to Bes?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27770" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10109" RevisionGUID="9105ed32-8824-4098-ae2a-867de5f89d03" CreationDate="2021-08-04T02:15:45.653" UserId="3208" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27777" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10112" RevisionGUID="aef74320-3f7b-4a08-a1cf-28810dbc7d7c" CreationDate="2021-08-06T23:16:01.080" UserId="8442" Text="There is a rock bluff shrine to the underwater panther (according to people at Washington University) partially on my dad's property in southeast Missouri, got alot of pictures done in red paint with 3 holes bore into the rock face,they are filled with mud now from flooding but one has smoke residue going up half the bluff, pretty sure it's in what was a Mississippian area but later the Osage around Fredericktown " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27778" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10113" RevisionGUID="bb2dfc91-bbc7-4ed6-bdb4-32e364e311c9" CreationDate="2021-08-07T00:29:20.113" UserId="8349" Text="Taking an example from Rick Riordan's Greek Mythology series, Annabeth herself complained for not being able to do anything as a daughter of Athena. All other children, even minor gods seem to have way more power and strength than Athena's children.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Besides strategy/war, intelligence and planning, what other powers do these children have? How could they possibly compare to other demigods that can fly, or summon hurricanes? Even a benevolent goddess like Aphrodite has kids that can &quot;charmspeak&quot; or will others to do things just from voice." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27779" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10113" RevisionGUID="bb2dfc91-bbc7-4ed6-bdb4-32e364e311c9" CreationDate="2021-08-07T00:29:20.113" UserId="8349" Text="What is special about children of Athena?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27780" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10113" RevisionGUID="bb2dfc91-bbc7-4ed6-bdb4-32e364e311c9" CreationDate="2021-08-07T00:29:20.113" UserId="8349" Text="|athena|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27781" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10114" RevisionGUID="c01c6064-615f-4e0c-b82b-fa6a3b56b5a6" CreationDate="2021-08-07T10:16:52.373" UserId="5511" Text="In Greek mythology, Athena swore herself to virginity, she had no children born from her. According to some localized myths, she adopted a single child, born from Gaia called [Erichthonius][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rick Riordan's Annabeth has no Ancient Greek mythological basis. Etymologically, Annabeth is not even a Greek name. It's a combination of &quot;Anna&quot; &amp; &quot;Elisabeth&quot;, both Hebrew in origin.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erichthonius_of_Athens" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27782" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10115" RevisionGUID="ea3b1b0b-5d51-438b-9c0f-e7155e325d52" CreationDate="2021-08-07T10:42:18.797" UserId="5511" Text="It's certainly possible the Egyptian imagery influenced the Greek. Like many Egyptian gods, the worship of Bes and his wife Beset was exported from Egypt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beset was very popular in Crete, and Bes was venerated by the Phoenicians, who spread the imagery even further across the Mediterranean. The island of Ibiza gets its name from Bes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Bes started out as a household protector deity, but by the Middle Kingdom (ca 2000-1600 BCE) came to symbolize the good things in life – music, dance, and sexual pleasure.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interestingly, both the cult of Bes and Silenus feature masked festivities. It's probably the masks that are the most similar since the Egyptians usually depicted their deities in twisted perspective in their drawings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Egyptian Mask of Bes (ca 400 BCE)][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Roman Silenus Mask (ca 200 CE)][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for studies, [this paper suggests a common Phoenician origin][3] of the imagery of Bes and Silenus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/yEbvz.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/HSVAa.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.academia.edu/38507206/_Across_the_Middle_Sea_the_long_journey_of_Phoenician_and_Punic_masks_in_M._Barbanera_ed._La_medesima_cosa_sono_Ade_e_Dionisio_._Maschere_Teatro_e_Rituali_Funerari_nel_Mondo_Antico._Atti_del_Convegno_Internazionale_Scienze_dellAntichit%C3%A0_24_3_Roma_51-68" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27783" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10116" RevisionGUID="a37076d4-6fb5-4ed3-a87e-b963a000806e" CreationDate="2021-08-07T11:04:36.123" UserId="158" Text="In *The Iliad*, the Greek warrior Diomedes directly attacks and wounds both Aphrodite and Ares in a single day. He does so with the blessing of Athena, but the story makes it clear that it is Diomedes himself delivering the blows, not Athena: divine assistance notwithstanding, this is direct human-on-god violence. And the blows, while not life-threatening, are serious enough to immediately drive both gods from the battlefield in distress to go seek healing on Olympus.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I’m sure that world mythologies are full of stories about humans fighting minor sprites and magical creatures, but Aphrodite and Ares are Olympians, the A-List deities of their pantheon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do any other mythologies depict their top-tier gods as vulnerable (even through the aid of other gods) to direct violence from mortal humans?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27784" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10116" RevisionGUID="a37076d4-6fb5-4ed3-a87e-b963a000806e" CreationDate="2021-08-07T11:04:36.123" UserId="158" Text="Which world mythologies depict humans directly harming or killing gods in combat?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27785" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10116" RevisionGUID="a37076d4-6fb5-4ed3-a87e-b963a000806e" CreationDate="2021-08-07T11:04:36.123" UserId="158" Text="|greek|comparative|trojan-war|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27789" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10116" RevisionGUID="4fada822-5e62-4955-8fe6-64ceba88aa3c" CreationDate="2021-08-08T07:21:58.383" UserId="158" Comment="added 14 characters in body" Text="In *The Iliad*, the Greek warrior Diomedes directly attacks and wounds both Aphrodite and Ares in a single day. He does so with the blessing of Athena, but the story makes it clear that it is Diomedes himself delivering the blows, not Athena on his behalf: divine assistance notwithstanding, this is direct human-on-god violence. And the blows, while not life-threatening, are serious enough to immediately drive both gods from the battlefield in distress to go seek healing on Olympus.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I’m sure that world mythologies are full of stories about humans fighting minor sprites and magical creatures, but Aphrodite and Ares are Olympians, the A-List deities of their pantheon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do any other mythologies depict their top-tier gods as vulnerable (even through the aid of other gods) to direct violence from mortal humans?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27791" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10118" RevisionGUID="8bbaba88-9282-4584-a9f6-8a1751e82512" CreationDate="2021-08-09T17:39:04.423" UserId="6739" Text="The ancient cultures of Greece, Rome, and Egypt did not have a word for religion, at least in our modern understanding of the word. Greece and Rome did have terms for religious practices though, threskeia (θρησκεία) and cultus, respectively. Did the ancient Egyptians have a similar word, or term? I have been unable to find such a word, just the English word &quot;cult&quot; substituted for the Egyptian word." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27792" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10118" RevisionGUID="8bbaba88-9282-4584-a9f6-8a1751e82512" CreationDate="2021-08-09T17:39:04.423" UserId="6739" Text="Did the ancient Egyptians have a word for &quot;cult&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27793" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10118" RevisionGUID="8bbaba88-9282-4584-a9f6-8a1751e82512" CreationDate="2021-08-09T17:39:04.423" UserId="6739" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27795" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10119" RevisionGUID="5425dcb9-3db7-4f9c-8258-7b487c6ef97b" CreationDate="2021-08-10T09:28:17.197" UserId="5511" Text="Several compounds, maybe not in the sense you are looking for:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][5]][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][6]][6]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;if you're looking for a non-compound, probably the closest would be:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][7]][7]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][8]][8]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/GKhsy.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/alKUA.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/qDghW.png&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/5Z1jV.png&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/kk64x.png&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/QbD4y.png&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/q1Ooe.png&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/hq1tf.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27800" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10120" RevisionGUID="ff601353-0efd-43c4-a9c4-52d15be9adbd" CreationDate="2021-08-13T10:15:26.323" UserId="8461" Text="There is a story I read in school and I can't remember from which book it is, my gut tells me it could be a story about Ulysses.&#xD;&#xA;As far as I remember, someone's girlfriend was sent to hell and that person then tries to save her. As he gets to hell, the devil proposes him a deal, the girlfriend will be freed but only if he trusts the devil that he will actually free her. So he has to walk away and don't look back and the devil will send her a couple of steps after him. In case he looks back some kind of bad thing would happen, maybe petrification, not sure.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Could that be one of Ulysses stories?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27801" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10120" RevisionGUID="ff601353-0efd-43c4-a9c4-52d15be9adbd" CreationDate="2021-08-13T10:15:26.323" UserId="8461" Text="Was Ulysses ever in a quest to save someone from hell?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27802" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10120" RevisionGUID="ff601353-0efd-43c4-a9c4-52d15be9adbd" CreationDate="2021-08-13T10:15:26.323" UserId="8461" Text="|greek|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27803" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10121" RevisionGUID="f6b1116a-eb71-4408-89ea-dc58fdc6914a" CreationDate="2021-08-13T14:01:30.093" UserId="2682" Text="**Not Ulysses...**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After the end of the Trojan War, on his protracted voyage back home to the island of Ithaca, Ulysses does go to &quot;hell,&quot; i.e. the land of the dead. His adventure there is narrated in the *Odyssey*, wherein his Greek name Odysseus is used, and in which he takes a tour of the Underworld, which includes vistas of certain sinners suffering in Tartarus, the deepest part of the netherworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;During this hell-tour, Odysseus meets the shades (or ghosts) of several people he had known before they died, but his mission of going to hell is in order to acquire directions home from the dead prophet Teiresias, not to save anyone. He doesn't have a girlfriend at this point, since the main motivation for his voyage is to get back home to his wife Penelope.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**... But Orpheus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story you are asking about must be the myth of Orpheus and Eurydice, who lived a generation earlier than Ulysses/Odysseus. Orpheus was a musician whose song was so beautiful that it had the power to charm all those who listened to it, including plants and rivers, the sea, and even ferocious beasts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He was married to Eurydice who died of a snakebite. When this happened, he undertook a journey to the Underworld in order to bring her back to life. Using his magical music he was able to bypass all the security features of the realm, including Cerberus, the monstrous triple-headed watchdog who guarded the entrance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Upon gaining an audience with Hades and Persephone, the deities who ruled over the dead, he managed to convince them to let her go so that she might live again. This, however, was granted with the condition that on the way out of the Underworld, Eurydice would follow behind Orpheus and he could lay eyes upon her only once they had emerged back into the upper world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If he failed to observe this protocol, she would remain dead. So the two of them began their trip out of the realm of Hades, and they were just beginning to rise back out into the land of the living when Orpheus, in a moment of doubt about whether he might be being tricked and that his wife might not actually be behind him at all, took a quick glance back to make sure. He saw that she was in fact there, but now she instantly got sucked back down into the house of Hades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He tried to repeat his infiltration of the Underworld, but this time found no access whatsoever, and he shortly afterwards died a tragic death in misery, pining over his wife whom he had lost twice over.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Further Reading:* [The Greek Mythology Link article on Orpheus](https://www.maicar.com/GML/Orpheus.html)  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27804" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10122" RevisionGUID="41fc0896-309d-4cd2-b9fa-f15e021274f0" CreationDate="2021-08-13T16:04:49.187" UserId="8465" Text="I'm interested in finding suggestions for sources who write about exploring traditional mythologies and their relevance to modern times. This would be a book that contains analysis, interpretation, and narratives applying classical myths to understanding modern issues, psychologies and cultures. It could be specific to a particular mythology or encompassing several traditions. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27805" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10122" RevisionGUID="41fc0896-309d-4cd2-b9fa-f15e021274f0" CreationDate="2021-08-13T16:04:49.187" UserId="8465" Text="Author and book recommendation" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27806" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10122" RevisionGUID="41fc0896-309d-4cd2-b9fa-f15e021274f0" CreationDate="2021-08-13T16:04:49.187" UserId="8465" Text="|comparative|source-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27807" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10123" RevisionGUID="d9ac21ea-e5bf-4fe5-915b-12955ddcd25c" CreationDate="2021-08-13T23:57:09.040" UserId="3989" Text="Examples spring to mind from Hindu and Christian traditions:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Krishna himself departed as he had prophesied. . . . a hunter from a distance mistook the soles of his feet for a bird, and shot an arrow, thus ending the tenure of the eighth avatar of Vishnu on earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;R. K. Narayan. *The Mahabharata: A Shortened Modern Prose Version of the Indian Epic.* Chicago: U of Chicago P, 2000. Pp. 178-79.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Passion of Christ is also represented as human-inflicted." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27809" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10125" RevisionGUID="f8547536-4f44-4a6e-962e-ba8e6e683f97" CreationDate="2021-08-14T05:31:15.350" UserId="8471" Text="I think proponents of the Electric Universe theory would have something interesting to say about this whole business. They believe the Saturn was a star that entered Sun's heliosphere not so long ago (because it is required for humans to have the distant memory of it written in folklore and art, lets say 10-20k ago). They think Saturn was a red dwarf before it &quot;collided&quot; with the Sun, and because Sun's electric field was the stronger one, it overpowered the Saturn star, so it had to let its large satellites go (Earth, Venus and Mars) because it lost its potential (for them, the gravity depends not only on mass but on electric potential/charge of the object). For the longer time the humans on Earth could witness planetary chaos involving Saturn, Mars and Venus, until they settled in their current orbits. If somehow the EU interpretation on ancient art and folklore is right, Rubens might have depicted it in this painting, tho, highly unlikely :)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27810" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10126" RevisionGUID="1cf20fc2-7259-4e34-8188-c4b768c97af9" CreationDate="2021-08-14T10:55:04.683" UserId="5511" Text="See (Spanish) [article in El Pais][1]: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Painted in 1636, the three stars in the painting represent the planet Saturn as described by Galileo in 1610, a few years before. The central star is the planet itself, whilst the two others represent what he thought were two stars aligned with the planet. In reality, these were the rings around the planet, which his telescope was not powerful enough to distinguish.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://elpais.com/sociedad/2009/10/23/actualidad/1256248803_850215.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27812" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10128" RevisionGUID="c92b33bd-e7a8-4687-bc20-725da8422dd3" CreationDate="2021-08-16T17:35:34.033" UserId="8477" Text="I'm not sure if this is exactly what you had in mind, but if you are looking for a blend of wide ranging mythology set in a modern context, Neil Gaiman's American Gods is a solid place to start. He's done a bit of writing on myth generally, and this blends things nicely into social commentary and just (in my opinion) a stellar story. It's fiction, but it's well worth checking out. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27813" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10129" RevisionGUID="890b1642-a558-4ede-9011-8dcfe621cafa" CreationDate="2021-08-17T13:08:45.130" UserId="8479" Text="I guess it’s a hybrid of them both. It says they are called Nephilims, but that’s Angel and Human. Demons are not human, they are basically Fallen Angels.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So maybe the offspring would be a Fallen Angel as well? It’s really up to debate but the history of Angel Vs Demon is history, making it apparent they separate themselves as two complete different species. You can catagorise them as the same but are now two different beings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, since it’s almost unheard of such creation existing. It’s safe to say it’s a hybrid of them both and a chaos waiting to be unravelled. And it’s probably best that no one finds out what sort of creation it would be. Because it may dissolve our morals on what truly is good and what is evil." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27814" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10130" RevisionGUID="5b700ee0-39e3-4512-898f-c1b8ab65bf01" CreationDate="2021-08-17T16:02:31.233" UserId="8480" Text="We have an association of light=good and dark=bad, to the point where we even use them as synonyms. There are a lot of pretty obvious historical bases for these metaphors:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. Sunlight is the ultimate source of energy (and by extension, food and warmth) on Earth&#xD;&#xA; 2. Humans have poor low-light vision, and are vulnerable at night&#xD;&#xA; 3. Things generally get darker when they get dirtier, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is this a human universal?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there cultures/mythologies that flip it around?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27815" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10130" RevisionGUID="5b700ee0-39e3-4512-898f-c1b8ab65bf01" CreationDate="2021-08-17T16:02:31.233" UserId="8480" Text="Are/were there are any culutures where darkness is good and light is bad?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27816" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10130" RevisionGUID="5b700ee0-39e3-4512-898f-c1b8ab65bf01" CreationDate="2021-08-17T16:02:31.233" UserId="8480" Text="|comparative|symbolism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27817" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10131" RevisionGUID="70c4e698-ae29-4f67-8a6d-ebd63621da8e" CreationDate="2021-08-18T08:03:20.873" UserId="5511" Text="The Daoist principle of [Yin and Yang][1] doesn't see light and dark as good and bad, but as complementary.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yin is characterized as slow, soft, yielding, diffuse, cold, wet, and passive; and is associated with water, earth, the moon, femininity, and night time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yang, by contrast, is fast, hard, solid, focused, hot, dry, and active; and is associated with fire, sky, the sun, masculinity and daytime.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there is no good or bad associated with Yin or Yang.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27819" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2503" RevisionGUID="7d832e9f-deda-4994-bd25-1deae40bb1e7" CreationDate="2021-08-18T14:18:55.997" UserId="53" Comment="Question was untagged - added a tag" Text="|muses|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27823" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10133" RevisionGUID="1a8b9255-6a1d-4286-beeb-5477e8e0a106" CreationDate="2021-08-19T01:03:32.077" UserId="5806" Text="I am a little too late to give you an answer but there I go.&#xD;&#xA;Perseus death is a blurry concept. No Greek script says anything about it.&#xD;&#xA;I think there is only a reference about him dying as a very old person. But nobody says how. Probably mythology wants him to live a peaceful life after his adventures. I don't know for sure, but as a Greek researcher, I also found nothing, so your question is correct." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27824" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="7744" RevisionGUID="9a6f10e3-f835-4547-8e01-740600b59045" CreationDate="2021-08-19T13:07:10.717" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="27825" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10134" RevisionGUID="67433b27-1ef5-4b43-9f81-a0ab774b0e46" CreationDate="2021-08-19T19:58:29.070" UserId="742" Text="Is there any evidence of the Ancient Greeks worshipping Zeus's daughter Helen? For example, did they build any shrines in her honor or did they offer sacrifices to her?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27826" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10134" RevisionGUID="67433b27-1ef5-4b43-9f81-a0ab774b0e46" CreationDate="2021-08-19T19:58:29.070" UserId="742" Text="Is there any evidence of the Ancient Greeks worshipping Zeus's daughter Helen?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27827" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10134" RevisionGUID="67433b27-1ef5-4b43-9f81-a0ab774b0e46" CreationDate="2021-08-19T19:58:29.070" UserId="742" Text="|greek|history|sacrifice|goddesses|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27829" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10135" RevisionGUID="10bac86d-ae95-4f7a-9101-a6ad5539cfb3" CreationDate="2021-08-19T20:10:32.990" UserId="2985" Text="I'm looking for the structure of the Fairy (Fae) courts which are defined by Seelie or Unseelie alignments.&#xD;&#xA;There is a lot of fiction written but the problem is that they twist it to their own purposes and add things not in the original mythologies.&#xD;&#xA;Can anyone point to a definitive taxonomy (Scottish, Welsh, Irish) that covers this?&#xD;&#xA;Regards" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27830" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10135" RevisionGUID="10bac86d-ae95-4f7a-9101-a6ad5539cfb3" CreationDate="2021-08-19T20:10:32.990" UserId="2985" Text="The structure of the Fae courts" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27831" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10135" RevisionGUID="10bac86d-ae95-4f7a-9101-a6ad5539cfb3" CreationDate="2021-08-19T20:10:32.990" UserId="2985" Text="|welsh|irish|fairies|scottish|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27832" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10136" RevisionGUID="e1cd353b-cf24-437b-88b0-9ac9d39d6988" CreationDate="2021-08-20T09:32:42.323" UserId="5511" Text="&gt; We first a crown of low-growing lotus&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; having woven will place it on a shady plane-tree.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; First from a silver oil-flask soft oil&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; drawing we will let it drip beneath the shady plane-tree.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Letters will be carved in the bark, so that someone passing by&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; may read in Doric: **&quot;Reverence me. I am Helen's tree.&quot;**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Theocritus' epithalamium commemorating the marriage of Helen and Menelaus*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Helen was worshipped and had a festival at [Therapnae][1] in Laconia; she also had a temple at [Rhodes][2], where she was worshipped as Helen Dendritis (Helen of the Trees, Έλένα Δενδρῖτις); she was a vegetation or a fertility goddess(the tree goddess). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like her brothers, the Dioscuri, she was a patron deity of sailors. Her name is pre-Hellenic and the cult may go back to the pre-Greek periods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapne&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodes" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27836" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10137" RevisionGUID="f1800211-f8dc-4c4f-bddf-4cd19cece395" CreationDate="2021-08-22T00:49:41.813" UserId="6920" Text="Herodotus, in his [Histories][1], recounts the story of how Ariston took his third wife, the most beautiful woman in Sparta, from his friend Agetus, and says that she had been an ugly baby, but her nurse's constant prayers at Helen's shrine had caused Helen to appear and make her beautiful.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If the story is not accurate, nevertheless the existence of the shrine is very likely.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://blogs.reinhardt.edu/history/summary-of-herodotus/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27838" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10139" RevisionGUID="56b9a169-57eb-4e3f-af29-fe4877f2dc28" CreationDate="2021-08-25T14:24:17.600" UserId="409" Text="The wikipedia page on [Birds in Norse Mythology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Birds_in_Norse_mythology) does not mention&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other [websites](https://talesfromthefairies.wordpress.com/tag/animals-in-norse-mythology) mention owls:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The owl is associated with Hawthorn and the mystique rune is Huathe. The owl is the guide to the underworld, it helps us to see in the spiritual and actual dark, and it shows us how to look inside the darkness in ourselves and find a way out of it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But are unsourced.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is anything mentioned in norse mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27839" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10139" RevisionGUID="56b9a169-57eb-4e3f-af29-fe4877f2dc28" CreationDate="2021-08-25T14:24:17.600" UserId="409" Text="Are owls mentioned in Norse Mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27840" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10139" RevisionGUID="56b9a169-57eb-4e3f-af29-fe4877f2dc28" CreationDate="2021-08-25T14:24:17.600" UserId="409" Text="|norse|animals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27841" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10140" RevisionGUID="4e2620bc-e8df-4a86-bdd8-384f30c58b81" CreationDate="2021-08-25T15:56:28.177" UserId="409" Text="I'm starting a new Roleplaying campaign soon, and my character is norse/icelandic themed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the other character is inspired by Kitsune. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I want to find out what, if anything, might my character mistake this character for?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've done some limited research, and it seems like either Fylgja or Hamingja ..? But I'm not clear if that's just because I've misread the wikipedia pages. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27842" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10140" RevisionGUID="4e2620bc-e8df-4a86-bdd8-384f30c58b81" CreationDate="2021-08-25T15:56:28.177" UserId="409" Text="Are there any beings from Norse Mythology that could be mistaken for a Kitsune (fox-person spirit)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27843" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10140" RevisionGUID="4e2620bc-e8df-4a86-bdd8-384f30c58b81" CreationDate="2021-08-25T15:56:28.177" UserId="409" Text="|norse|comparative|japanese|animals|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27844" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10141" RevisionGUID="1af5179c-c1bf-43e5-bd87-a3a85467be25" CreationDate="2021-08-26T10:40:59.303" UserId="5511" Text="Besides Fylgia and Hamingja, the fox is a sacred animal to the goddess [Sigyn][1]. She's the wife of Loki, the trickster god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigyn" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27845" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10142" RevisionGUID="51998dbc-78e3-46b0-8ed8-5fc84a87c9ca" CreationDate="2021-08-26T12:01:32.840" UserId="666" Text="A huldra&#xD;&#xA;--------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Huldra][1] (Norway) or &quot;[skogsrå][2]&quot; (Sweden) are creatures from folklore who mostly look like young, friendly human women, but have something that marks them as inhuman: a back that is &quot;hollow&quot; or covered with bark, hooves, or a tail, sometimes a fox-tail. They lived in forest. In some stories, they tried to seduce lonely men who then could either disappear or lose their soul, unless they noticed the tail or back, or they could act as protectors of animals. Other stories depicted them as grateful and helpful if treated with respect.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hulder&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skogsr%C3%A5" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27846" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10143" RevisionGUID="1c00f170-db2e-4843-864c-3d50a9abe082" CreationDate="2021-08-26T20:39:23.167" UserId="8143" Text="I'm reminded of an Englishman's description of the Highlanders at the Battle of Culloden, 1746:  Then they came down the hill like the wild savages they were.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But it was the British commander, the Duke of Cumberland, who was called the Butcher of Culloden.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I happen to be descended from the Clan McGillivray, who fought hard at Culloden.  &quot;Touch not the cat, but with a glove&quot; is the clan motto.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I wonder if those &quot;wild Highlanders&quot; were actually what was left of the ancient Picts.  Called &quot;painted ones&quot; by the Roman Tacitus." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27847" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10144" RevisionGUID="477645dc-71fe-4e1d-8e9d-7b694ef871cf" CreationDate="2021-08-26T23:17:10.203" UserId="8494" Text="I don't think so. Because this good and bad is related to the journey of the sun through a year. In spring and summer, day-time is longer than the night-time. During this period the sun wins against darkness. There are crops, harvest, food, warmth, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, in winter and fall, the night-time is longer. The sun loses against darkness. This period, especially winter, is a scary test for ancient men. No plants, no harvest, no warmth. If you don't prepare yourself for winter while the sun is winning, you can easily die because of cold, lack of food, etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Therefore, in my opinion, favoring darkness doesn't make sense for ancient people." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27849" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10122" RevisionGUID="dbd2c7a8-6613-4618-a235-671fd03e4985" CreationDate="2021-08-29T19:53:31.120" UserId="-1" Comment="more useful title" Text="Sources which explore traditional mythologies and their relevance to modern times" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27850" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="10122" RevisionGUID="dbd2c7a8-6613-4618-a235-671fd03e4985" CreationDate="2021-08-29T19:53:31.120" Comment="Proposed by anonymous approved by 2682, 1241 edit id of 1873" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27851" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10145" RevisionGUID="b104c56c-a7dd-4835-9759-d6fb8ba73e74" CreationDate="2021-08-31T13:41:37.337" UserId="742" Text="We're all familiar with various superstitious ideas that consider the number 13 unlucky. But is there any such associations with the number 11? I've found Kabbalistic sources that connect the number 11 to the *sitra achara* (&quot;the other side&quot; in Aramaic) which is the &quot;dark side&quot; or the &quot;side of evil.&quot; Are such ideas found in other sources?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27852" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10145" RevisionGUID="b104c56c-a7dd-4835-9759-d6fb8ba73e74" CreationDate="2021-08-31T13:41:37.337" UserId="742" Text="Is there any superstitious associations between the number eleven and evil?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27853" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10145" RevisionGUID="b104c56c-a7dd-4835-9759-d6fb8ba73e74" CreationDate="2021-08-31T13:41:37.337" UserId="742" Text="|superstition|numerology|evil|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27854" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10146" RevisionGUID="2a59c17e-e813-45f9-b7b7-d25e684983e2" CreationDate="2021-09-01T13:21:02.893" UserId="5511" Text="The only one I can think of is in the Babylonian [Enuma Elish][1]. The goddess Tiamat creates eleven monsters to battle the other gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/En%C5%ABma_Eli%C5%A1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27855" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10147" RevisionGUID="9e279b66-70aa-4543-a766-e37cad04885c" CreationDate="2021-09-02T10:24:43.383" UserId="158" Text="* Persephone was rescued from the Underworld (for a little while) by Hermes, who brought her back to Demeter.&#xD;&#xA;* Eurydice was (almost) rescued from the Underworld by Orpheus.&#xD;&#xA;* Semele was rescued from the Underworld by Dionysus (with the help of Herakles).&#xD;&#xA;* Alcestis was rescued from the Underworld by Herakles, along with a bunch of other people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems to be a common trope (at least in Greek mythology) for souls to be rescued from the Underworld, but only ever by a person or god who is still alive. So I'm curious: do any myths exist anywhere in Greek mythology of souls escaping from the Underworld on their own, or with the help of other dead souls? Any &quot;prison break&quot; myths of souls so slippery they escaped Hades and returned to the mortal world, or else who earn their release through a favor or deal with Hades?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And if not, do any other mythologies in that region (Roman, Egyptian, Phoenician, Sumerian, etc) have myths along those lines? Or was &quot;you can't get out of the Underworld without help&quot; an absolutely ironclad rule?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27856" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10147" RevisionGUID="9e279b66-70aa-4543-a766-e37cad04885c" CreationDate="2021-09-02T10:24:43.383" UserId="158" Text="Do any Mediterranean mythologies depict souls escaping from the Underworld without the help of a living rescuer?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27857" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10147" RevisionGUID="9e279b66-70aa-4543-a766-e37cad04885c" CreationDate="2021-09-02T10:24:43.383" UserId="158" Text="|greek|comparative|egyptian|underworld|mesopotamia|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27858" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10148" RevisionGUID="f5d768e2-c365-4825-96ea-4aeb1ed52230" CreationDate="2021-09-02T10:43:12.970" UserId="5511" Text="Well, the Egyptian Book of the Dead is basically a manual for a deceased person to navigate the perils of the underworld to get to a place called &quot;Double Ma'at&quot; where the heart is weighed. But the journey to this place is full of monsters and demons. The deceased has to navigate this all by him/her self, with just the scrolls to guide. I guess that would qualify under your criteria." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27859" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10149" RevisionGUID="368a5c5a-4f86-4bd6-8b69-41a456163e1d" CreationDate="2021-09-04T20:59:03.240" UserId="7106" Text="I doubt that this has anything to do with Mediterranean cultures specifically.&#xD;&#xA;The myth of Izanagi/Izanami in Japanese Shinto is straightforwardly identical to the myth of Orpheus (only that the protagonists are gods in the Japanese myth).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also Greek myths and other myths in the region could have been influenced by other previous non-Mediterranean cultures. In Mesopotamia there is the myth of Ishtar (one of the main goddess) that descends into the Underworld and gets trapped trying to find his lover and is later rescued by another person sent by Ea, another god. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: I noticed that you included Sumer in your question, but Sumer is not a Mediterranean culture. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27860" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10149" RevisionGUID="0c4d6136-9898-4c83-9b1c-f1a2d4e7c8ff" CreationDate="2021-09-04T21:05:23.883" UserId="7106" Comment="added 10 characters in body" Text="I doubt that this has anything to do with Mediterranean cultures specifically.&#xD;&#xA;The myth of Izanagi/Izanami in Japanese Shinto is straightforwardly identical to the myth of Orpheus (only that the protagonists are gods in the Japanese myth).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also Greek myths and other myths in the region could have been influenced by other previous non-Mediterranean cultures. In Mesopotamia there is the myth of Ishtar (one of the main goddess) that descends into the Underworld and gets trapped trying to find his lover and is later rescued by another person sent by Ea, another god. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: I noticed that you included Sumer in your question, but I would not call Sumer a Mediterranean culture. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27861" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10149" RevisionGUID="6d3071b7-85a1-4126-be18-502558d29e53" CreationDate="2021-09-04T21:19:38.007" UserId="7106" Comment="added 314 characters in body" Text="I doubt that this has anything to do with Mediterranean cultures specifically.&#xD;&#xA;The myth of Izanagi/Izanami in Japanese Shinto is straightforwardly identical to the myth of Orpheus (only that the protagonists are gods in the Japanese myth).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also Greek myths and other myths in the region could have been influenced by other previous non-Mediterranean cultures. In Mesopotamia there is the myth of Ishtar (one of the main goddess) that descends into the Underworld and gets trapped trying to find his lover and is later rescued by another person sent by Ea, another god. Other versions include somekind of periodic exchange similar to Persephone. The hero Gilgamesh also descended into the underworld to try to find his friend Enkidu. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other similar stories from other parts of the world include the hero twins from Mayan' Popol Vuh and the hero Mwindo from Nyanga culture of Congo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: I noticed that you included Sumer in your question, but I would not call Sumer a Mediterranean culture. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27862" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10150" RevisionGUID="1d2a51cc-ce81-4dfb-875e-482983e68798" CreationDate="2021-09-05T12:09:03.733" UserId="8513" Text="The story of Heracles being swallowed by the sea-monster appears in the [*Alexandra* or *Cassandra* attributed to Lycophron][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; αἰαῖ, τάλαινα θηλαμών, κεκαυμένη [31]  &#xD;&#xA;καὶ πρόσθε μὲν πεύκαισιν οὐλαμηφόροις  &#xD;&#xA;τριεσπέρου λέοντος, ὅν ποτε γνάθοις  &#xD;&#xA;Τρίτωνος ἠμάλαψε κάρχαρος κύων:  &#xD;&#xA;ἔμπνους δὲ δαιτρὸς ἡπάτων φλοιδούμενος [35]  &#xD;&#xA;τινθῷ λέβητος ἀφλόγοις ἐπ᾽ ἐσχάραις  &#xD;&#xA;σμήριγγας ἐστάλαξε κωδείας πέδῳ,  &#xD;&#xA;ὁ τεκνοραίστης, λυμεὼν ἐμῆς πάτρας&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Woe! luckless town, my nurse, already once [31]  &#xD;&#xA;Fired by the foemen from the fleet of one  &#xD;&#xA;Begotten in three nights, that lion whom  &#xD;&#xA;The jaws of Triton’s sharp-fanged hound consumed:  &#xD;&#xA;Living he carved its vitals, but, being burnt [35]  &#xD;&#xA;By steam from cauldron on a fireless hearth,  &#xD;&#xA;Dropped to the ground the bristles from his head,  &#xD;&#xA;That child-destroyer, ruin of my land.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Pseudo-Lycophron (2nd century BCE). [*Alexandra*, lines 31–38][1]. Translated by George W. Mooney (1921). London: G. Bell.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This poem takes the form of a prophecy spoken by [Cassandra of Troy][3], and so the contents are, in the usual manner of prophecies, somewhat riddling and obscure. However, the 12th century Byzantine scholars [John and Isaac Tzetzes][5] gathered interpretations of the difficult lines, which subsequent writers have followed. (Since I can’t read the [Tzetzes’ Greek][8], I’m using [John Potter’s Latin version][4] of the commentaries.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;31. “luckless town, my nurse” — Troy, in which Cassandra, daughter of Priam and Hecuba, was born and raised.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;32. “fired by the foemen from the fleet of one” — Potter comments:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    &gt; Cassandra, who is going to expound the various miseries and calamities of Troy, begins with a passage about the expedition of Heracles, who, having raised a force of six ships, sacked and plundered Troy under King Laomedon.&#xD;&#xA;    &gt;&#xD;&#xA;    &gt; &lt;sub&gt;John Potter (1697). [*Commentarius in Lycophronis Cassandram*, pp. 1384–1385][4]. In Christian Gottfried Müller, ed. (1811). *ΣΧΟΛΙΑ ΕΙΣ ΛΥΚΟΦΡΟΝΑ*, volume 3. Leipzig: Vogel. My translation.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    and refers us to this speech by [Tlepolemus][11] in the *Iliad*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    &gt; Far other was Herakles, my own brave and lion-hearted father, who came here for the horses of Laomedon, and though he had six ships only, and few men to follow him, sacked the city of Ilion and made a wilderness of her highways.&#xD;&#xA;    &gt;&#xD;&#xA;    &gt; &lt;sub&gt;Homer. [*Iliad* V.638–642][6]. Translated by Samuel Butler (1898). London: Longmans, Green and Co.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;33. “begotten in three nights” — that is, Heracles spent three nights inside the sea-monster. I am not sure why Mooney chose “begotten” here (other than for reasons of prosody): the Greek is τριεσπέρου, “in three successive nights”.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;!-- --&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;33. “that lion” — Heracles, from the skin he wore after killing the [Nemean Lion][9].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;34. “Triton’s sharp-fanged hound” — the sea monster sent by Poseidon after Laomedon refused to pay him for building the walls of Troy. Triton was the son of Poseidon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;!-- --&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;36. “cauldron on a fireless hearth” — Potter comments:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    &gt; that is, the belly of the sea monster, whose natural heat, neither kindled nor increased by external fire, boiled away Heracles’ hair&#xD;&#xA;    &gt;&#xD;&#xA;    &gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Potter, pp. 1385–1386][4].&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;!-- --&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;38. “child-destroyer” — Heracles killed his children by [Megara][7] in a fit of madness brought on by Hera.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Christian commenters have generally assumed that pseudo-Lycophron got the story from Jonah, but their arguments are not very convincing, for example:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There is a *fable*, most probably of Phoenician origin, which, bearing some similitude to the history of Jonah, may have been taken from this book. Laomedon, king of Troy, having displeased Neptune, to appease him, was required to expose his daughter *Hesione* to be devoured by a *sea-monster*. She was chained to a rock, and was awaiting her fate at the next flux of the tide. In the interim *Hercules* slew the sea-monster, and delivered the princess. To this *Lycophron*, in his *Cassandra*, ver. 33, &amp;c., is supposed to allude:—&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; τριεσπερου λεοντος, ον ποτε γναθοις  &#xD;&#xA;Τριτωνος ημαλαψε καρχαρος κυων.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Of the lion the offspring of three nights, which the fierce dog of Triton swallowed down greedily.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The scholiasts explain this in the following manner: While the princess was standing chained to the rock, expecting the greedy dog (καρχαρος κυων, the *shar*k) to come and devour her, Hercules stood by ready armed; and, when the monster came forward with open mouth, he jumped directly down his throat, and spent *three days* in cutting and hacking his entrails; and afterwards *came out of the monster*, with the loss of all the hair on his bead. *Cyril*, in his comment, says this was occasioned by the *incredible heat* of the *monster’s stomach*.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This *fable* might have been easily taken from the true history; though some have been ready enough to intimate that the history of the prophet was taken firom the *fable*.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The appeal made to the *main facts* of this history by our Lord, proves that we are to admit of no *allegorical* exposition of these facts. 1. There was such a person as Jonah. 2. He was swallowed by a sea-monster, in whose belly he was miraculously preserved three days and three nights. 3. This same prophet preached to the Ninevites; and they repented and turned from their sins, under his ministry. This testimony puts an end to all mythological, allegorical, and hypothetical interpretations of those great facts. And in its literal sense alone, I undertake the interpretation of this book.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Adam Clarke (1836). ‘[Introduction to the Book of Jonah][10]’. In *The Holy Bible, Containing the Old and New Testaments*, volume 4, p. 3338. London: Thomas Tegg.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://archive.org/details/alexandraoflycop00lyco/page/4/mode/2up&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycophron#The_Alexandra&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassandra&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://archive.org/details/isaakioukaiioann03tzetuoft/page/1384/mode/2up&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Tzetzes&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0217%3Abook%3D5%3Acard%3D572&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megara_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://archive.org/details/hin-wel-all-00000373-002/page/n31/mode/2up&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemean_lion&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://archive.org/details/holybible00clargoog/page/n720/mode/2up&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tlepolemus&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27863" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10150" RevisionGUID="ce5b3c17-4ee6-4d76-9cb0-e4d6c3fab53d" CreationDate="2021-09-05T14:11:04.260" UserId="8513" Comment="Perseus and Andromeda" Text="The story of Heracles being swallowed by the sea-monster appears in the [*Alexandra* or *Cassandra* attributed to Lycophron][2]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; αἰαῖ, τάλαινα θηλαμών, κεκαυμένη [31]  &#xD;&#xA;καὶ πρόσθε μὲν πεύκαισιν οὐλαμηφόροις  &#xD;&#xA;τριεσπέρου λέοντος, ὅν ποτε γνάθοις  &#xD;&#xA;Τρίτωνος ἠμάλαψε κάρχαρος κύων:  &#xD;&#xA;ἔμπνους δὲ δαιτρὸς ἡπάτων φλοιδούμενος [35]  &#xD;&#xA;τινθῷ λέβητος ἀφλόγοις ἐπ᾽ ἐσχάραις  &#xD;&#xA;σμήριγγας ἐστάλαξε κωδείας πέδῳ,  &#xD;&#xA;ὁ τεκνοραίστης, λυμεὼν ἐμῆς πάτρας&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Woe! luckless town, my nurse, already once [31]  &#xD;&#xA;Fired by the foemen from the fleet of one  &#xD;&#xA;Begotten in three nights, that lion whom  &#xD;&#xA;The jaws of Triton’s sharp-fanged hound consumed:  &#xD;&#xA;Living he carved its vitals, but, being burnt [35]  &#xD;&#xA;By steam from cauldron on a fireless hearth,  &#xD;&#xA;Dropped to the ground the bristles from his head,  &#xD;&#xA;That child-destroyer, ruin of my land.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Pseudo-Lycophron (2nd century BCE). [*Alexandra*, lines 31–38][1]. Translated by George W. Mooney (1921). London: G. Bell.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This poem takes the form of a prophecy spoken by [Cassandra of Troy][3], and so the contents are, in the usual manner of prophecies, somewhat riddling and obscure. However, the 12th century Byzantine scholars [John and Isaac Tzetzes][5] gathered interpretations of the difficult lines, which subsequent writers have followed. (Since I can’t read the [Tzetzes’ Greek][8], I’m using [John Potter’s Latin version][4] of the commentaries.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;31. “luckless town, my nurse” — Troy, in which Cassandra, daughter of Priam and Hecuba, was born and raised.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;32. “fired by the foemen from the fleet of one” — Potter comments:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    &gt; Cassandra, who is going to expound the various miseries and calamities of Troy, begins with a passage about the expedition of Heracles, who, having raised a force of six ships, sacked and plundered Troy under King Laomedon.&#xD;&#xA;    &gt;&#xD;&#xA;    &gt; &lt;sub&gt;John Potter (1697). [*Commentarius in Lycophronis Cassandram*, pp. 1384–1385][4]. In Christian Gottfried Müller, ed. (1811). *ΣΧΟΛΙΑ ΕΙΣ ΛΥΚΟΦΡΟΝΑ*, volume 3. Leipzig: Vogel. My translation.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    and refers us to this speech by [Tlepolemus][11] in the *Iliad*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    &gt; Far other was Herakles, my own brave and lion-hearted father, who came here for the horses of Laomedon, and though he had six ships only, and few men to follow him, sacked the city of Ilion and made a wilderness of her highways.&#xD;&#xA;    &gt;&#xD;&#xA;    &gt; &lt;sub&gt;Homer. [*Iliad* V.638–642][6]. Translated by Samuel Butler (1898). London: Longmans, Green and Co.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;33. “begotten in three nights” — that is, Heracles spent three nights inside the sea-monster. I am not sure why Mooney chose “begotten” here (other than for reasons of prosody): the Greek is τριεσπέρου, “in three successive nights”.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;!-- --&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;33. “that lion” — Heracles, from the skin he wore after killing the [Nemean Lion][9].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;34. “Triton’s sharp-fanged hound” — the sea monster sent by Poseidon after Laomedon refused to pay him for building the walls of Troy. Triton was the son of Poseidon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;!-- --&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;36. “cauldron on a fireless hearth” — Potter comments:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    &gt; that is, the belly of the sea monster, whose natural heat, neither kindled nor increased by external fire, boiled away Heracles’ hair&#xD;&#xA;    &gt;&#xD;&#xA;    &gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Potter, pp. 1385–1386][4].&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;!-- --&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;38. “child-destroyer” — Heracles killed his children by [Megara][7] in a fit of madness brought on by Hera.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Christian commenters have generally assumed that pseudo-Lycophron got the story from Jonah, but their arguments are not very convincing, for example:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There is a *fable*, most probably of Phoenician origin, which, bearing some similitude to the history of Jonah, may have been taken from this book. Laomedon, king of Troy, having displeased Neptune, to appease him, was required to expose his daughter *Hesione* to be devoured by a *sea-monster*. She was chained to a rock, and was awaiting her fate at the next flux of the tide. In the interim *Hercules* slew the sea-monster, and delivered the princess. To this *Lycophron*, in his *Cassandra*, ver. 33, &amp;c., is supposed to allude:—&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; τριεσπερου λεοντος, ον ποτε γναθοις  &#xD;&#xA;Τριτωνος ημαλαψε καρχαρος κυων.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “Of the lion the offspring of three nights, which the fierce dog of Triton swallowed down greedily.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The scholiasts explain this in the following manner: While the princess was standing chained to the rock, expecting the greedy dog (καρχαρος κυων, the *shar*k) to come and devour her, Hercules stood by ready armed; and, when the monster came forward with open mouth, he jumped directly down his throat, and spent *three days* in cutting and hacking his entrails; and afterwards *came out of the monster*, with the loss of all the hair on his bead. *Cyril*, in his comment, says this was occasioned by the *incredible heat* of the *monster’s stomach*.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This *fable* might have been easily taken from the true history; though some have been ready enough to intimate that the history of the prophet was taken firom the *fable*.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The appeal made to the *main facts* of this history by our Lord, proves that we are to admit of no *allegorical* exposition of these facts. 1. There was such a person as Jonah. 2. He was swallowed by a sea-monster, in whose belly he was miraculously preserved three days and three nights. 3. This same prophet preached to the Ninevites; and they repented and turned from their sins, under his ministry. This testimony puts an end to all mythological, allegorical, and hypothetical interpretations of those great facts. And in its literal sense alone, I undertake the interpretation of this book.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Adam Clarke (1836). ‘[Introduction to the Book of Jonah][10]’. In *The Holy Bible, Containing the Old and New Testaments*, volume 4, p. 3338. London: Thomas Tegg.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Pseudo-Lycophron comes to the myth of Perseus and Andromeda, it is very similar to his version of the myth of Heracles and Hesione. I guess the story was too good not to use again.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; δισσάς τε πέτρας, κέπφος αἷς προσήλατο [836]  &#xD;&#xA;δαιτὸς χατίζων. ἀντὶ θηλείας δ᾽ ἔβη  &#xD;&#xA;τὸν χρυσόπατρον μόρφνον ἁρπάσας γνάθοις,  &#xD;&#xA;τὸν ἡπατουργὸν ἄρσεν᾽ ἀρβυλόπτερον.  &#xD;&#xA;πεφήσεται δὲ τοῦ θεριστῆρος ξυρῷ [840]  &#xD;&#xA;φάλαινα δυσμίσητος ἐξινωμένη&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And those two rocks, on which that stupid gull [836]  &#xD;&#xA;Leaped, seeking food, when with his jaws he snatched  &#xD;&#xA;No maiden, but the eagle golden-sired,  &#xD;&#xA;The liver-rending hero with winged shoes.  &#xD;&#xA;The loathed sea-monster, all its sinews cut, [840]  &#xD;&#xA;Slain by that reaper’s razor then shall be&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Pseudo-Lycophron, lines 836–841][12].&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;836. “stupid gull” — the Greek is κέπφος meaning “storm petrel” or (figuratively) “simpleton”. Mooney suggests this puns on κῆτος meaning “sea-monster”.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;!-- --&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;838. “the eagle golden-sired” — Perseus, who flew on the winged sandals of Hermes, and was fathered by Zeus when he visited Danaë in a shower of gold.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://archive.org/details/alexandraoflycop00lyco/page/4/mode/2up&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycophron#The_Alexandra&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassandra&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://archive.org/details/isaakioukaiioann03tzetuoft/page/1384/mode/2up&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Tzetzes&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0217%3Abook%3D5%3Acard%3D572&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megara_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://archive.org/details/hin-wel-all-00000373-002/page/n31/mode/2up&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemean_lion&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://archive.org/details/holybible00clargoog/page/n720/mode/2up&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tlepolemus&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://archive.org/details/alexandraoflycop00lyco/page/90/mode/2up&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27865" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10149" RevisionGUID="d844fb12-a3da-4a91-9bc2-6057315587d5" CreationDate="2021-09-06T08:45:57.570" UserId="7106" Comment="added 473 characters in body; added 91 characters in body" Text="I doubt that this has anything to do with Mediterranean cultures specifically.&#xD;&#xA;The myth of Izanagi/Izanami in Japanese Shinto is straightforwardly identical to the myth of Orpheus (only that the protagonists are gods in the Japanese myth).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also Greek myths and other myths in the region could have been influenced by other previous non-Mediterranean cultures. In Mesopotamia there is the myth of Ishtar (one of the main goddess) that descends into the Underworld and gets trapped trying to find his lover and is later rescued by another person sent by Ea, another god. Other versions include somekind of periodic exchange similar to Persephone. The hero Gilgamesh also descended into the underworld to try to find his friend Enkidu. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other similar stories from other parts of the world include the hero twins from Mayan' Popol Vuh and the hero Mwindo from Nyanga culture of Congo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: I noticed that you included Sumer in your question, but I would not call Sumer a Mediterranean culture. &#xA;&#xA;Edit:&#xA;Concerning escaping the underworld without help, I guess the most well known case in Greek mythology is that of Sisyphus. After escaping death (Thanatos) once, Sisyphus ordered his wife to throw his death body in a public square. Sisyphus convinced Persephone that his wife was unrespectful and that he must go to the world of the living again to scold her. He did so, but did not return to the underworld and escaped. Of course, he was later killed by Zeus again and was punished for all eternity to push a rock on a hill up and back down again and again." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27866" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="10109" RevisionGUID="5d6c7bf0-7c2f-4bcc-9c4d-fa318716a2c2" CreationDate="2021-09-06T11:02:30.200" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="27868" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10151" RevisionGUID="9977cc62-b446-4414-907d-391a31d022ec" CreationDate="2021-09-06T18:42:57.430" UserId="8513" Text="Plato’s *Republic* includes the [myth of Er, son of Armenius][24], in which Er avoids drinking the water of Lethe and so escapes from the underworld:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; All the souls […] marched on in a scorching heat to the plain of Forgetfulness [Lethe], which was a barren waste destitute of trees and verdure; and then towards evening they encamped by the river of Unmindfulness [Ameleta], whose water no vessel can hold; of this they were all obliged to drink a certain quantity, and those who were not saved by wisdom drank more than was necessary; and each one as he drank forgot all things. Now after they had gone to rest, about the middle of the night there was a thunderstorm and earthquake, and then in an instant they were driven upwards in all manner of ways to their birth, like stars shooting. He himself [Er] was hindered from drinking the water. But in what manner or by what means he returned to the body he could not say; only, in the morning, awaking suddenly, he found himself lying on the pyre.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And thus, Glaucon, the tale has been saved and has not perished, and will save us if we are obedient to the word spoken; and we shall pass safely over the river of Forgetfulness [Lethe] and our soul will not be defiled.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Plato (c. 380 BCE). [*The Republic* X][7]. Translated by Benjamin Jowett (1888).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Republic/Book_X&#xD;&#xA;  [24]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_Er" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27869" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6480" RevisionGUID="90173fc5-6d91-425c-820e-aad6c8e98ec0" CreationDate="2021-09-07T14:07:25.717" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="27870" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10152" RevisionGUID="bbf8e573-3b78-45dd-add8-bce9a506347b" CreationDate="2021-09-08T20:02:35.220" UserId="5806" Text="Succubus (female demon) and its equal make Incubus are two demons that come to mind that do exactly what you are asking.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succubus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27871" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10152" RevisionGUID="04e6f618-a22a-4a7a-bf29-80e349dd5475" CreationDate="2021-09-08T20:12:09.820" UserId="5806" Comment="edited body" Text="Succubus (female demon) and its equal male Incubus are two demons that come to mind that do exactly what you are asking.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succubus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27872" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5857" RevisionGUID="96118f82-190b-431f-8f13-f5246f6921f5" CreationDate="2021-09-09T03:16:01.430" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="27873" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5675" RevisionGUID="ebae9337-e97d-4c68-a20d-ba779780d999" CreationDate="2021-09-11T08:21:28.913" UserId="-1" Comment="added a reference on Psyche and Monomyth to complement a previous answer" Text="The story of Cupid and Psyche, a story within a story in &quot;The Golden Ass&quot; by Lucius Apuleius has several characteristics of a Hero's Journey. Or, a Heroine's Journey, if you will.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Psyche goes to all sorts of adventures, including a quest to the underworld, and faces a multitude of obstacles to win back Cupid's love. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's a brief section on Psyche and Monomyth in wikipedia [here][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero%27s_journey#Psyche" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27874" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5675" RevisionGUID="ebae9337-e97d-4c68-a20d-ba779780d999" CreationDate="2021-09-11T08:21:28.913" Comment="Proposed by anonymous approved by 1241, 5726 edit id of 1874" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27876" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10153" RevisionGUID="07f11378-571f-41d4-9f3e-132a97124b29" CreationDate="2021-09-13T09:41:49.437" UserId="5806" Text="It's been 3 years but better late than never.&#xD;&#xA;Zeus wisdom was always present either within his judgement or by Athena's voice.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We should remember that Metis is the expression of something people had in mind at that time. As always myths are made by people and myths many times represent ideas people of that time had. Metis is personifies **a set of skills**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;J.P Vernant, a French Scientist did a huge research on Metis. Maybe reading his book might enlighten you, because Metis as an entity is wrongly taken as **just** the godess of wisdom. Wisdom as a term is wrong.&#xD;&#xA;Metis is a way of thinking. A way of thinking including trickster, wisdom, skill, engineering and many many other skills that come up to efficient problem solving.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus efficiently cheating Hera alone, proves Metis presence. Nobody said that Zeus uses Metis wisely but nobody can say the opposite either. Who can defy his choices? His actions brought Hermes, Dionysus, Artemis and Apollo to the Pantheon. Not to mention Herakles.&#xD;&#xA;It was probably part of what other religions say &quot;part of a divine plan&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I admit that it is a good question though.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27878" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10153" RevisionGUID="6e49c71b-05c9-4c04-bf9b-9a7fe026d2bd" CreationDate="2021-09-13T10:25:58.947" UserId="5806" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body" Text="It's been 3 years but better late than never.&#xD;&#xA;Zeus wisdom was always present either within his judgement or by Athena's voice.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We should remember that Metis is the expression of something people had in mind at that time. As always myths are made by people and myths many times represent ideas people of that time had. Metis personifies **a set of skills**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;J.P Vernant, a French Scientist did a huge research on Metis. Maybe reading his book might enlighten you, because Metis as an entity is wrongly taken as **just** the godess of wisdom. Wisdom as a term is wrong.&#xD;&#xA;Metis is a way of thinking. A way of thinking including trickster, wisdom, skill, engineering and many many other skills that come up to efficient problem solving.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus efficiently cheating Hera alone, proves Metis presence. Nobody said that Zeus uses Metis wisely but nobody can say the opposite either. Who can defy his choices? His actions brought Hermes, Dionysus, Artemis and Apollo to the Pantheon. Not to mention Herakles.&#xD;&#xA;It was probably part of what other religions say &quot;part of a divine plan&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I admit that it is a good question though.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27880" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10155" RevisionGUID="920b38c8-d64d-4cd0-99e5-93bc789400ef" CreationDate="2021-09-13T14:16:53.297" UserId="4650" Text="Was early Judaism polytheistic, and were &quot;angels&quot; originaly minor gods? It is supposedly one of the points argued for in the book &quot;Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan&quot;. Also, is this view the currently dominant theory on the origins of early judaism, or a pet-theory of a few academics? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I just want to get some additional sources before I accidentally spread misinformation.&#xD;&#xA;Also, the source book has according to reviewers broken kindle version, and I don't want to pay 20$ for shipping, so no, I can't just check." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27881" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10155" RevisionGUID="920b38c8-d64d-4cd0-99e5-93bc789400ef" CreationDate="2021-09-13T14:16:53.297" UserId="4650" Text="Was early Judaism polytheistic?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27882" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10155" RevisionGUID="920b38c8-d64d-4cd0-99e5-93bc789400ef" CreationDate="2021-09-13T14:16:53.297" UserId="4650" Text="|history|judaism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27883" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10156" RevisionGUID="30964c64-3857-4d10-bcf9-3d63a7e1d379" CreationDate="2021-09-13T19:15:07.960" UserId="398" Text="This is indeed a widely held view in academia, and has been for a while, although the angels are not always considered &quot;gods.&quot; Other gods have been mentioned though. Asherah, for example, was mentioned in two different inscriptions as being the &quot;consort of Yahweh.&quot; William Dever devoted a whole book to it (*Did God Have a Wife?*), and you can see the scholarly criticism of it actually reinforces the idea of widespread polytheism in Judaea. From [Wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Did_God_Have_a_Wife%3F#Criticism):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In his book, William Dever describes archaeological findings in ancient Israel that have produced female figurines, representing female goddesses. Dever, claiming that the biblical authors never refer or allude to such archaeological facts of contemporary life, writes that the biblical authors “did not wish to acknowledge the popularity and the powerful influence of these images&quot; (pg. 184). Benjamin D. Sommer has criticized Dever on this point, saying that &quot;[i]n fact, however, biblical authors constantly acknowledge the widespread polytheism of Israelites, and they mention Israelite goddess worship specifically on a number of occasions (e.g., Book of Jeremiah 7.18, 44.17–19)&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Therefore, Sommer argues that the biblical authors were commonly involved in self-criticism of their nations polytheistic tendencies, from the period of Moses in the wilderness (Book of Exodus 32:4) to the monarchies of Israel and Judah (First Book of Kings 11:5, Second Book of Kings 23:13, Book of Ezekiel 8) and their writings in fact reflect a widespread polytheism in their own day. Even Solomon is reported to have worshipped other gods toward the end of his kingdom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can also read about the development of the Israelite pantheon, which was long a henotheistic religion where Yahweh was supreme, on [Wik](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahwism#Pantheon) as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice that the &quot;angels&quot; are seen only as minor divinities. In this regard, their role is probably the same then as it was when it was put down in Tanakh." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27884" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10157" RevisionGUID="92708e83-5b4b-4c55-a997-e010a3a3d6fa" CreationDate="2021-09-13T22:32:04.977" UserId="8534" Text="Roman satirist Lucian of Somosata wrote of philosophers Whose souls escaped from the underworld. Names such as Plato, Socrates, even the founders of stoicism which was popular in second century Roman Empire. They were angry with Lucian, who has placed himself as a character in this particular story. He had, in their eyes, insulted them and Philosophy herself. Of course Lucian denies this, and after meeting Philosophy and her followers Truth, Argument, and others, a trial is held in ahh our sharp-witted protagonist is vindicated. This is more in the realm of satire mixed with mythology, but I figured that should count." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27885" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10157" RevisionGUID="a5f608ae-39eb-4a1f-b4c3-24ce288fcd54" CreationDate="2021-09-14T03:11:32.973" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected spelling &amp; fixed grammar" Text="Roman satirist Lucian of Samosata wrote of philosophers whose souls escaped from the Underworld. Names such as Plato, Socrates, even the founders of Stoicism which was popular in the second-century Roman Empire. They were angry with Lucian, who had placed himself as a character in this particular story. He had, in their eyes, insulted them and Philosophy herself. Of course Lucian denies this, and after meeting Philosophy and her followers Truth, Argument, and others, a trial is held in which our sharp-witted protagonist is vindicated. This is more in the realm of satire mixed with mythology, but I figured that should count." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27886" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10157" RevisionGUID="5081e844-7c09-40f4-a902-c3a7c8ae5338" CreationDate="2021-09-14T12:39:47.810" UserId="8534" Comment="deleted 7 characters in body" Text="Roman satirist Lucian of Somosata wrote of philosophers whose souls escaped from the Underworld. Names such as Plato, Socrates, even the founders of Stoicism which was popular in the second-century Roman Empire. They were angry with Lucian, who had placed himself as a character in this particular story. He had, in their eyes, insulted them and Philosophy herself. Of course Lucian denied this, and after meeting Philosophy and her followers Truth, Argument, and others, a trial was held in which our sharp-witted protagonist is vindicated. This is more in the realm of satire mixed with mythology, but I think that counts." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27895" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10160" RevisionGUID="4e605e92-7771-4a19-85b9-ca36e844ab02" CreationDate="2021-09-16T23:37:27.443" UserId="8547" Text="The Myrmidons (or Myrmidones Μυρμιδόνες) were an ancient nation of Greek mythology. In Homer's Iliad, the Myrmidons are the soldiers commanded by Achilles.[1] Their eponymous ancestor was Myrmidon, a king of Phthiotis who was a son of Zeus and &quot;wide-ruling&quot; Eurymedousa, a princess of Phthiotis. She was seduced by him in the form of an ant. An etiological myth of their origins, simply expanding upon their supposed etymology—the name in Classical Greek was interpreted as &quot;ant-people&quot;, from murmekes, &quot;ants&quot;—was first mentioned by Ovid, in Metamorphoses: in Ovid's telling, the Myrmidons were simple worker ants on the island of Aegina.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myrmidons&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27897" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10160" RevisionGUID="4e605e92-7771-4a19-85b9-ca36e844ab02" CreationDate="2021-09-16T23:37:27.443" UserId="8547" Text="Did Zeus become a literal ant, or a human with ant-like qualities, a worker?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27898" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10160" RevisionGUID="4e605e92-7771-4a19-85b9-ca36e844ab02" CreationDate="2021-09-16T23:37:27.443" UserId="8547" Text="|zeus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27901" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10162" RevisionGUID="29d06ba5-7f46-495d-bdc7-c07be7f70978" CreationDate="2021-09-17T20:00:40.800" UserId="8553" Text="In reading both fiction and nonfiction materials over the years, involving Egyptian, Roman, Persian, Greek, and Jewish cultures, I have seen statements to the effect that the locals believed their war was won because the god of preference in the story was stronger and determined the outcome. Recently, I thought I could find a simple, concise statement by some scholar that the concept was ubiquitous in ancient cultures (and by some people, believed modernly). However, in researching the basic question, &quot;did ancient people generally believe that the strongest god was instrumental in winning the war&quot;, it is a case of being unable to see the forest for the trees.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have been surprised how difficult is to get a general statement, although the web is full of individual debates about the wars within specific pantheons, the belief systems and origins of various cultures, and the modern world of gaming describing the powers of the gods. There are thousands of links to Ares, Mars, Týr, Anann, Horus, Istar, etc. But a general statement about a widely held belief among the ancients to the effect that the wars' outcome was dependent on which god was stronger, has been elusive.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you for your insight into the problem." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27903" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10162" RevisionGUID="29d06ba5-7f46-495d-bdc7-c07be7f70978" CreationDate="2021-09-17T20:00:40.800" UserId="8553" Text="Has divine prowess always been considered a factor in determining the outcome of wars?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27904" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10162" RevisionGUID="29d06ba5-7f46-495d-bdc7-c07be7f70978" CreationDate="2021-09-17T20:00:40.800" UserId="8553" Text="|comparative|reference-request|traditions|ares|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27905" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10163" RevisionGUID="534fa06d-eb5a-4183-8724-354ae4fbc409" CreationDate="2021-09-18T00:00:48.747" UserId="6920" Text="Is it a general rule?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I note that when the Romans were losing badly to Carthage, their reaction was not to think the Carthagian gods were stronger, but to investigate what they had done to offend their gods.  After Canae, they consulted the Sibylline books, sacrificed four people to the gods, and sent a delegation to Delphi and its oracle.  Indeed, one act taken during the war was to tamp down, hard, on superstitious practices because people consulting means outside official control.  This would point not to thinking the other gods stronger, but that their own gods were angry with them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[One also notes][1] that they practiced the *interpretatio romana*, as the Greeks the *interpretatio graeca*, whereby they identified their gods with the nearest equivalent of the other culture's gods.  Hence, a Roman writer said that Hannibal sacrificed a boy to Saturn.  In this vein of thought, there were not different gods in question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even the practice of [evocatio][2], a rite where you set out to lure a foreign god to Rome and strip a foreign city of its tutelary deity, points to their regarding the favor of the gods as the major element, not their relative power.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretatio_graeca&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_ancient_Roman_religion#evocatio" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27907" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10164" RevisionGUID="cc58abf0-8180-4545-9f76-3e78d5baab74" CreationDate="2021-09-18T10:37:21.570" UserId="8555" Text="There is some information here about why the number 400 is sacred (and the &quot;plus one&quot; probably indicates it being innumerable, i.e. a multitude and one more): [Number of Orishas][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This only answers what the significance of the 401 is, but not the other numbers, sadly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are also completely different numbers, here for example [1200 Orishas][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.google.com.au/books/edition/Santeria/DgN8h0GreckC?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=number%20of%20orishas&amp;pg=PA45&amp;printsec=frontcover&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/1AzYV.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.google.com.au/books/edition/Encyclopedia_of_Ancient_Deities/sEIngqiKOugC?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=number%20of%20orishas&amp;pg=PA365&amp;printsec=frontcover&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/4cHQq.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27910" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3194" RevisionGUID="cd5fe629-be88-423a-b00a-0cb31f300732" CreationDate="2021-09-18T22:03:35.330" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="27915" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10163" RevisionGUID="a40c3519-4429-469e-8c52-3a4d985bcc93" CreationDate="2021-09-19T14:48:25.447" UserId="6920" Comment="grammar error " Text="Is it a general rule?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I note that when the Romans were losing badly to Carthage, their reaction was not to think the Carthagian gods were stronger, but to investigate what they had done to offend their gods.  After Canae, they consulted the Sibylline books, sacrificed four people to the gods, and sent a delegation to Delphi and its oracle.  Indeed, one act taken during the war was to tamp down, hard, on superstitious practices because people were consulting means outside official control.  This would point not to thinking the other gods stronger, but that their own gods were angry with them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[One also notes][1] that they practiced the *interpretatio romana*, as the Greeks the *interpretatio graeca*, whereby they identified their gods with the nearest equivalent of the other culture's gods.  Hence, a Roman writer said that Hannibal sacrificed a boy to Saturn.  In this vein of thought, there were not different gods in question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even the practice of [evocatio][2], a rite where you set out to lure a foreign god to Rome and strip a foreign city of its tutelary deity, points to their regarding the favor of the gods as the major element, not their relative power.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretatio_graeca&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_ancient_Roman_religion#evocatio" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27919" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10167" RevisionGUID="0ea69c82-dbca-4323-a6a3-143af6f7f459" CreationDate="2021-09-20T09:00:30.980" UserId="5511" Text="As @Mary already suggested, the outcome of the conflict would generally not imply a loss of faith in the gods by the losing party, but would initiate a search for why the particular deitie(s) were displeased with their followers. In reality, this of course points to the clergy of that deity scapegoating some likely offense to the deity in order to retain their worldly power over the people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But I think it is safe to say that the alleged prowess of a deity is universally used as a means to get people into a mental state so that they would kill another human being. A deity would also be invoked or given as justification for battles. Some examples from different cultures and religions:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The Romans had several invocation battle cries, including ***Venus Victrix*** (Winner of Venus) and ***Mars Ultor*** (Avenger of Mars)&#xD;&#xA; - A common war cry used in India was &quot;***Vetrivel, Veeravel***&quot; (Victorious Vel, Courageous Vel). Vel is the holy spear of Murugan,the Hindu war deity.&#xD;&#xA; - Vikings invoked the name of ***Odin*** when entering battle.&#xD;&#xA; - During the crusades, European armies would utter the battle cry ***deus vult*** (it is God's will)&#xD;&#xA; - The takbir ***Allahu akbar*** was used historically as a battle cry during war. &#xD;&#xA; - ***Nobiscum Deus*** in Latin, ***Μεθ᾽ἡμων ὁ Θεός (Meth hēmon ho theos)*** in Ancient Greek, was a battle cry of the late Roman Empire and of the Eastern Roman Empire&#xD;&#xA; - German soldiers during WWII had &quot;***Gott mit uns***&quot; (God is with us) inscribed on their belts. The Nazis continued this long-held tradition that goes back to the Prussian era (ca. 1700). It was also commonly used by Sweden in most of its wars and especially as a war cry during the Thirty Years' War. The allies similarly claimed the same deity was on *their* side with battle cries as &quot;***for God, King and country***&quot;&#xD;&#xA; - The Japanese Japanese battle cry &quot;***Tennōheika Banzai***&quot; (天皇陛下万歳, meaning &quot;Long live His Majesty the Emperor&quot;) originates in the 7th century and was used until the end of WWII. The emperor was considered a living god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27928" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="1767" RevisionGUID="6262ae31-2a53-4f50-bb6b-be7510514134" CreationDate="2021-09-22T02:46:07.710" UserId="398" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;cmw&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="27930" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10170" RevisionGUID="5b22eea7-214c-41a5-a2d1-c079c27b9ba8" CreationDate="2021-09-24T23:19:02.403" UserId="158" Text="When I imagine a “girdle” I generally reach for an image from the 19th or early 20th centuries. My image of Ancient Greek fashion is more based around loose-fitting robes, tunics, and dresses, rather than the later trend toward shape-wear. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And yet in Greek mythology, Hephaestus is said to have made a “golden girdle” for Aphrodite that significantly enhanced her already-enormous beauty. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When I search for images of “Ancient Greek girdles” they are mostly just ribbons or rope-belts around the waist, which seems too simple for what the myth is describing. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any more detailed descriptions of this piece of mythological jewelry, or significant depictions in art or sculpture? Or are there similar items from the historical record that might serve as a decent analogue of what this magical item looked like?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27932" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10170" RevisionGUID="5b22eea7-214c-41a5-a2d1-c079c27b9ba8" CreationDate="2021-09-24T23:19:02.403" UserId="158" Text="Given the fashion standards of Ancient Greece, what would Aphrodite’s magical girdle have looked like?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27933" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10170" RevisionGUID="5b22eea7-214c-41a5-a2d1-c079c27b9ba8" CreationDate="2021-09-24T23:19:02.403" UserId="158" Text="|greek|god-items|aphrodite|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27934" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1385" RevisionGUID="2fd3781b-9bac-4dff-b508-35227253b2ec" CreationDate="2021-09-25T10:03:55.443" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="27935" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10171" RevisionGUID="2e6244f4-65b8-4b75-acc3-6f974dc07d0c" CreationDate="2021-09-26T01:48:33.753" UserId="6920" Text="The term I have usually seen used, in the context of fairy tales, is &quot;contamination.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For instance, a folklorist might say that the Grimms' version of *Little Red Riding Hood* was contaminated by *The Wolf and The Seven Young Kids*, in that the ending was changed to save the heroine, in comparison with Perrault's version, where she dies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This term reflects a nineteenth-century view of fairy tales surviving in pure form from prehistoric eras, but it has outlived the belief." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27937" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10172" RevisionGUID="8cac4dc6-1eef-4911-bc21-7e23506f180d" CreationDate="2021-09-26T15:53:39.293" UserId="5511" Text="Perhaps it wasn't even a girdle at all. In Homer's Iliad it is described as &#xD;&#xA;*kestos himas poikilos*, usually translated as &quot;embroidened girdle&quot;, but it's useful to look at the verse in context:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ἦ, καὶ **ἀπὸ στήθεσφιν** ἐλύσατο **κεστὸν ἱμάντα ποικίλον**, ἔνθα τέ οἱ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; θελκτήρια πάντα τέτυκτο· ἔνθ᾿ ἔνι μὲν φιλότης, ἐν δ᾿ ἵμερος, ἐν δ᾿&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ὀαριστὺς πάρφασις, ἥ τ᾿ ἔκλεψε νόον πύκα περ φρονεόντων. τόν ῥά οἱ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ἔμβαλε χερσὶν ἔπος τ᾿ ἔφατ᾿ ἔκ τ᾿ ὀνόμαζε· “τῆ νῦν, τοῦτον ἱμάντα τεῷ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ἐγκάτθεο κόλπῳ, 220ποικίλον, ᾧ ἔνι πάντα τετεύχαται· οὐδέ σέ φημι&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ἄπρηκτόν γε νέεσθαι, ὅ τι φρεσὶ σῇσι μενοινᾷς.” - Iliad Book 14, v 215-220&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are two main interpretations for these verses regarding the meaning of *κεστὸν*: allegorical or referring to an actual garment.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the allegorical interpretation, *κεστὸν* is said to mean the &quot;chains of love&quot;, that govern how lovers behave in Il. I.194.3&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interpreting this verse referring to an actual garment poses some difficulty: *ἱμάντα* (himanta) is used elsewhere to refer to the chin-strap of a helmet (Il. 3.371, 3.375), or even more broadly any kind of strap (Il. 5.727, 22.397), and Aphrodite is said to *ἀπὸ στήθεσφιν* &quot;loosen it from her chest&quot; - this makes is unlikely to be a girdle as we think of. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A possible explanation is the use of *κεστὸν* to refer to Near-Eastern amulets or breast-pieces that also serve as love charms.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It thus seems more likely the garment in question described is closer to a ornamented bra than to a girdle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27940" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10173" RevisionGUID="a66ea45d-abcb-4275-95a9-dbdaf30c8b21" CreationDate="2021-09-27T11:15:44.647" UserId="8590" Text="I was reading the Proto-Indo-European mythology Wikipedia page when I started to wonder if there were any similar reconstructions for other related groups of mythology. I'm particularly curious if there's anything for Aboriginal Australians or Polynesians, and if there are what would be some good sources to read about them? Even some good sources to read more about Proto-Indo-European mythology would be appreciated" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27942" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10173" RevisionGUID="a66ea45d-abcb-4275-95a9-dbdaf30c8b21" CreationDate="2021-09-27T11:15:44.647" UserId="8590" Text="Are there any reconstructions of possible early religions like Proto-Indo-European mythology for other cultures?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27943" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10173" RevisionGUID="a66ea45d-abcb-4275-95a9-dbdaf30c8b21" CreationDate="2021-09-27T11:15:44.647" UserId="8590" Text="|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27944" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10173" RevisionGUID="40bd6227-e08a-4dcb-b6c8-bef9128311f6" CreationDate="2021-09-28T00:10:04.943" UserId="8590" Comment="added 48 characters in body" Text="I was reading the Proto-Indo-European mythology Wikipedia page when I started to wonder if there were any similar reconstructions for other related groups of mythology. I'm particularly curious if there's anything for Aboriginal Australians or Polynesians although I'd like to learn about any that exist, and if there are what would be some good sources to read about them? Even some good sources to read more about Proto-Indo-European mythology would be appreciated" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27946" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6144" RevisionGUID="fbab38d9-b346-493a-967b-1bddfe510df3" CreationDate="2021-09-28T03:07:35.740" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="27948" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10174" RevisionGUID="023f64eb-1e06-4131-a3d3-e04527a38713" CreationDate="2021-09-29T16:18:02.980" UserId="7315" Text="The closest thing to what you are asking that comes to mind is [Old Norse Religion in Long-Term Perspectives: Origins, Changes &amp; Interactions][1] (I'm including the Google Books link because there you can find the ebook for a rather cheap price). It's a collection of papers by some of the leading scholars in the field of pre-Christian Norse religion. The fifth section of the book, &quot;Reception and Present-Day Use&quot; should be up your alley.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Several of the papers contained therein deal with the relationship of old Norse mythology with modern day political and religious movements, and its role in nowadays social and economic framework. I definitely recommend you take a look at it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://books.google.pt/books/about/Old_Norse_Religion_in_Long_term_Perspect.html?id=gjq6rvoIRpAC&amp;redir_esc=y" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27950" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10175" RevisionGUID="d2dfac7b-b276-459d-b104-6325275999d7" CreationDate="2021-09-29T17:32:14.563" UserId="7315" Text="Let me start by pointing out that most of what is written in the website you linked has no basis whatsoever in the sources that make up the old Norse corpus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding owls (old Norse *ugla*), their mentions in the old Norse corpus are extremely scant. Rather uninterestingly, they appear in lists of birds and ship names in *Skáldskaparmál*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, a quite notable mention appears in chapter 21 of the *Völsunga Saga*, in which *Brynhildr* recites a poem about runes to the hero *Sigurdr*. She says (translation by Kaaren Grimstad):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Master mind runes  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;if you mean to excel  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;in wisdom among men.  &#xD;&#xA;Hropt writes them  &#xD;&#xA;and reads them;  &#xD;&#xA;he fashioned them first. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;They were cut on a shield  &#xD;&#xA;for the shining god,  &#xD;&#xA;[...]  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;On bear’s front paw,  &#xD;&#xA; on Bragi’s tongue,  &#xD;&#xA; and on wolf’s claws,  &#xD;&#xA;Cut on eagle’s beak  &#xD;&#xA;and bloody wings,  &#xD;&#xA; on bridgeheads, too,  &#xD;&#xA; on merciful palms  &#xD;&#xA; and on pity’s soft path.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;On glass and gold  &#xD;&#xA; and good silver,  &#xD;&#xA; in ale and wine,  &#xD;&#xA; on witch’s seat,  &#xD;&#xA; on men’s flesh,  &#xD;&#xA; on Gaupnir’s fierce point,  &#xD;&#xA; on troll-woman’s teats,  &#xD;&#xA; on norn’s fingernail  &#xD;&#xA; **and the nose of an owl**.&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;The same poem appears, this time recited by *Sigrdrífa*, in *Sigrdrífumál*, a section of the *Poetic Edda*. Notice how the other animals mentioned in the poem (wolf, bear, eagle) feature prominently in Norse myth and sagas. It could then be that owls held a more significant role in old Norse culture than what the surviving sources suggest, but this is just speculation." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27952" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10176" RevisionGUID="641fe2a8-3d49-4ca4-8948-2c1cefff3416" CreationDate="2021-09-30T02:44:56.997" UserId="8597" Text="Odin Hoenir and Loki appear as a trio in Haustliong the prologue to the theft of Idunn and in Loka Tattur the three are summoned separately to aid a farmer's boy from a giant. After the first 2 fail Loki is successful, arare example oh his doing a good deed without being compelled to do so. Loki may also be Loourr&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27957" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10177" RevisionGUID="6b88da87-96ec-4005-9073-b981c40ff9d3" CreationDate="2021-10-02T20:52:21.183" UserId="7095" Text="The Talmud in [Sanhedrin 107b][1] and [Sotah 47a][2] brings a story about a sage named Yehoshua ben Perachiah and one of his students, called Jesus (whether this Jesus is the famous one of Christianity is beside the point here). At the end of the story, the rabbi and his student have a falling out and the student decides to commit an act of idolatry: Placing a brick upright and bowing down to it. Earlier today, I saw a suggestion by Avraham Korman in his book &quot;Sects and Cults in Judaism&quot;, pg. 364, that this act was probably something he had learned while staying in Egypt (in the story, he and his rabbi had escaped to Egypt and then came back to Judea).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was there such a form of worship in ancient Egypt or Hellenic Egypt (when the story took place)?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Note: a &quot;brick&quot; here could be any size, not necessarily a small one, or it might even refer to a stone slab of some sort, but likely of a type used for building things)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Sanhedrin.107b.12-14?vhe=Wikisource_Talmud_Bavli&amp;lang=bi&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Sotah.47a.12-14?vhe=Wikisource_Talmud_Bavli&amp;lang=bi" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27959" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10177" RevisionGUID="6b88da87-96ec-4005-9073-b981c40ff9d3" CreationDate="2021-10-02T20:52:21.183" UserId="7095" Text="Prostration before bricks" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27960" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10177" RevisionGUID="6b88da87-96ec-4005-9073-b981c40ff9d3" CreationDate="2021-10-02T20:52:21.183" UserId="7095" Text="|greek|egyptian|worship|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27961" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10177" RevisionGUID="29daf716-99fa-417a-8f15-dedab4f1dcfd" CreationDate="2021-10-02T21:21:58.637" UserId="7095" Comment="added 3 characters in body" Text="The Talmud in [Sanhedrin 107b][1] and [Sotah 47a][2] brings a story about a sage named Yehoshua ben Perachiah and one of his students, called Jesus (whether this Jesus is the famous one of Christianity is beside the point here). At the end of the story, the rabbi and his student have a falling out and the student decides to commit an act of idolatry: Placing a brick upright and bowing down to it. Earlier today, I saw a suggestion by Avraham Korman in his book &quot;Sects and Cults in Judaism&quot;, pg. 364, that this act was probably something he had learned while staying in Egypt (in the story, he and his rabbi had escaped to Egypt and then came back to Judea).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was there such a form of worship in ancient Egypt or Hellenistic Egypt (when the story took place)?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Note: a &quot;brick&quot; here could be any size, not necessarily a small one, or it might even refer to a stone slab of some sort, but likely of a type used for building things)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Sanhedrin.107b.12-14?vhe=Wikisource_Talmud_Bavli&amp;lang=bi&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Sotah.47a.12-14?vhe=Wikisource_Talmud_Bavli&amp;lang=bi" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27963" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10178" RevisionGUID="a955a28f-e3f9-4914-9e08-ff45ee1957f4" CreationDate="2021-10-03T19:22:11.107" UserId="7106" Text="Germanic and Scandinavian/Norse mythologies are often grouped together, usually a few names change but with the same root unlike Roman/Greek mythology. Germanic and Scandinavian mythology are so similar that both could be just called North European mythology or something like that. I am guessing that Germanic is just a continuation of the Scandinavian mythology. Are there any major differences between the two?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27965" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10178" RevisionGUID="a955a28f-e3f9-4914-9e08-ff45ee1957f4" CreationDate="2021-10-03T19:22:11.107" UserId="7106" Text="Are there major differences between Germanic and Scandinavian mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27966" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10178" RevisionGUID="a955a28f-e3f9-4914-9e08-ff45ee1957f4" CreationDate="2021-10-03T19:22:11.107" UserId="7106" Text="|norse|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27967" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10178" RevisionGUID="961db9fa-6270-4c82-b7f1-e5da2fce056a" CreationDate="2021-10-03T20:33:32.360" UserId="7106" Comment="added 61 characters in body; edited title; added 5 characters in body; deleted 143 characters in body; added 6 characters in body" Text="Continental Germanic and Scandinavian/Norse mythologies are often grouped together under Germanic mythology, usually a few deity names change but keeping the same roots, unlike Roman/Greek mythology. I am guessing that Continental Germanic is just a continuation of the Scandinavian mythology. Are there any major differences between the two?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27968" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10178" RevisionGUID="961db9fa-6270-4c82-b7f1-e5da2fce056a" CreationDate="2021-10-03T20:33:32.360" UserId="7106" Comment="added 61 characters in body; edited title; added 5 characters in body; deleted 143 characters in body; added 6 characters in body" Text="Are there major differences between Continental Germanic and Scandinavian mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27972" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10180" RevisionGUID="806b51e5-aa4d-4cb9-af5c-75e47e2ae522" CreationDate="2021-10-04T17:56:24.780" UserId="6739" Text="The Book of Gates is an ancient Egyptian funerary text which describes the various bxn.t (gates), also known as a pylon (πυλών) in ancient Greek. I have been unable to find the full name of the Book of Gates in the actual ancient Egyptian words. The term is not Shat am Duat &quot;book of that which is in the afterlife&quot;, or rw nw prt m hrw “Book of Coming Forth by Day”. The spaces between the Gates are known as qrrt, or circles, and also has a Book, which I would like to find the actual title to as well. Any help with this would be greatly appreciated." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27974" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10180" RevisionGUID="806b51e5-aa4d-4cb9-af5c-75e47e2ae522" CreationDate="2021-10-04T17:56:24.780" UserId="6739" Text="What is the ancient Egyptian name for &quot;The Book of Gates&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27975" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10180" RevisionGUID="806b51e5-aa4d-4cb9-af5c-75e47e2ae522" CreationDate="2021-10-04T17:56:24.780" UserId="6739" Text="|egyptian|afterlife|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27976" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10181" RevisionGUID="4435089a-2290-448e-81a5-1c430b566d08" CreationDate="2021-10-05T07:10:41.297" UserId="3017" Text="Per the linked wikipedia article, the Fext rose with the advance of the gun as the primary weapon of war, in the 17th century.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The gun certainly was transformative; it was power, in a form that the everyman could grasp; it allowed anyone with even a moderate amount of training to overcome the prior pinnacle of military power, the armored knight; the fact that it could overcome a millennia of society tradition makes it exactly the sort of thing that could reach across and harm the supernatural as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note also, that the fext was not alone in having a weakness to a specific type of firearm ammunition; at the same time, the werewolf, an ancient creature, gained its weakness to &quot;silver bullets&quot;, and similarly, the Brothers Grim have an otherwise bulletproof witch slain with silver bullets.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lore often simplifies or changes details over time and place. Other werewolf lore has werewolves that can be slain by normal lead bullets, provided that the lead was taken from a church's stain glass window. This is a specific case of the trope of &quot;holy hurts evil&quot;, which could also be the origin of the fext's vulnerability: Church glass as the original requirement, later extended to all glass." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27978" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10182" RevisionGUID="4a15a67c-b8f1-4f1b-9012-51e31a513bb2" CreationDate="2021-10-05T08:54:52.350" UserId="5511" Text="&quot;Book&quot; is a rather imprecise term which to us implies a title. The &quot;Books&quot; are loose collections of funerary texts. There is no &quot;standard&quot; table of contents and the texts vary from scroll to scroll and change over time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The &quot;Book&quot; of the Dead typically opens with: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; */ruː nuː pɛrɛt ɛm hɛruː/*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which is perhaps better translated as *utterances* (the mouth on the left with the vertical line and the three dots indicating plural) *of coming forth in the day*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason this text has a &quot;title&quot; is because the &quot;Book&quot; of the Dead is an instruction manual for the ka (soul) of the deceased to reach the hall of Ma'at. Otherwise said, the &quot;title&quot; means: &quot;this is what you should do and say in situation x, y and z&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The &quot;Book&quot; of Gates is not primarily an instruction manual like the &quot;Book&quot; of the Dead, but a loose collection of more &quot;illustrative&quot; religious texts. It *describes* the journey of a deceased soul though the underworld with reference to the journey of the sun god (Ra) during the hours of the night. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are twelve chapters, each dedicated to a gate and gatekeeper (the twelve figures in the depiction below)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note there is significant overlap between the texts of amduat, book of the dead and book of gates. They probably all originate in the Coffin Texts, but the Book of Gates is thought to be a later rendition. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/1QOe6.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/oS0y1.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27980" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10182" RevisionGUID="b816f19a-5034-4e13-977c-81b2e41b4886" CreationDate="2021-10-05T09:11:00.713" UserId="5511" Comment="added 17 characters in body" Text="&quot;Book&quot; is a rather imprecise term which to us implies a title. The &quot;Books&quot; are loose collections of funerary texts. There is no &quot;standard&quot; table of contents and the texts vary from scroll to scroll and change over time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The &quot;Book&quot; of the Dead typically opens with: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; */ruː nuː pɛrɛt ɛm hɛruː/*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which is perhaps better translated as *utterances* (the mouth on the left with the vertical line and the three dots indicating plural) *of coming forth in the day*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason this text has a &quot;title&quot; is because the &quot;Book&quot; of the Dead is an instruction manual for the ka (soul) of the deceased to reach the hall of Ma'at. Otherwise said, the &quot;title&quot; means: &quot;this is what you should do and say in situation x, y and z&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The &quot;Book&quot; of Gates is not primarily an instruction manual like the &quot;Book&quot; of the Dead, but a loose collection of more &quot;illustrative&quot; religious texts. It *describes* the journey of a deceased soul though the underworld with reference to the journey of the sun god (Ra) during the hours of the night. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are twelve chapters (separate texts), each dedicated to a gate and gatekeeper (the twelve figures in the depiction below)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note there is significant overlap between the texts of amduat, book of the dead and book of gates. They probably all originate in the Coffin Texts, but the Book of Gates is thought to be a later rendition. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/1QOe6.png&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/oS0y1.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27981" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10183" RevisionGUID="247854f0-6cd0-408b-8d69-557fa7b050f5" CreationDate="2021-10-06T02:13:24.420" UserId="3373" Text="Early Judaism was polytheistic, Solomon most definitely worshipped at least seven deities, as was the tradition in Levant and Mesopothamia (hypostasis of Planets). The monotheistic concept appeared in the 6th century before modern era, although the Caanite &quot;Iah&quot; and &quot;Asherah&quot; were worshipped by kings of Juda that used the suffix 'iah (apart from Mannaseh, who was a known pagan) to denote their loyalty to a tribal god. Evolution into &quot;god of gods&quot; was somewhat different. Yet, Even the word &quot;Elohim&quot; was plural and &quot;Yahwe&quot; was a seven-fold emenation of himself (thus the seven-fold model was compacted into one god and his names, starting with El') and was related to Sun deities. Most likely the origin of Elohim were the Assyro-Babylonian Igigi, children of Annuna, the former called Nephilim by Enoch in the 3rd century before modern era. The formation of a single god for a single tribe was formed from a embattled peoples whose &quot;utility&quot; was political. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Hebrews at that time were close to extinction, after the destruction of Israel and subjugation of Juda, thus a consolidation factor emerged - that of a single deity assigned to this particular tribe. The motive is not new, in ancient China a single deity was also worshipped, way before Akhenatenism. Hellenes and Romans in their universalistic henotheistic panentheism worshipped a single God at least since Plato's times, that was the &quot;e pluribus unum&quot;, and it did not contradict the worship of other Gods and Goddesses at all. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In neoplatonic theurgy, much later (I-II century modern era) &quot;he&quot; was instrumentally designated as the &quot;Father&quot; and was understood as an Abyss and an Idea, yet only the High Gods could understand that force. The evolution of this belief among Hebrews meant self-preservation for this peoples, while they were threatened by dilution and destruction. At first he was a lesser god of Canaan, related somehow to Ishkur (god of weather, earthquakes and storms), then the narration went that he defeated Caanite Litan/Lotan (Leviathan) also called Rahab and &quot;in battles of gods&quot; won, which is of course a Hebrew version of this story. This is an extremely short answer to your question. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For a Heathen/Pagan concept of unity among God/Gods check out this comparative table between Platonic - Orphic - Chaldean systems of theology, the elucidation of this complex theology is not related to this topic, so I'll just leave it like that. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/OUG8R.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27983" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7649" RevisionGUID="1fc19212-45ef-4ce6-a16c-cf5710907489" CreationDate="2021-10-06T02:30:23.267" UserId="3373" Comment="added update of sources" Text="**Academic Books on 'Dragonology':**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; Chinese Emperors and Sages are said to be sons of Heaven, therefore celestial dragons- **Zhao, Qiguang. 2013. Dragons, East and West.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Humanity as Dragon-offspring of Igigi Aw-Ila and Dragon Annuna as Creator-Gods: **Foster, Benjamin R. 2005. Before the muses: an anthology of Akkadian literature. Bethesda, Md: CDL Press.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Graeco-Roman dragon cults, suppressed by Christianity: **Ogden, Daniel. 2013. Drakōn: dragon myth and serpent cult in the Greek and Roman worlds. Oxford, U.K.: Oxford University Press.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The evolution of the dragon in the West (update, there is a new fascinating book): **Daniel Ogden. 2021. The Dragon in the West: From Ancient Myth to Modern Legend.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is an interesting article here: **Jaakko Aronen: Dragon Cults and Nymphe Drakaina in IGUR 974  aus: Zeitschrift für Papyrologie und Epigraphik 111 (1996) 125–132** Link below:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/ifa/zpe/downloads/1996/111pdf/111125.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27984" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10184" RevisionGUID="db3ca25a-3a81-46ca-800c-414b06d657fd" CreationDate="2021-10-06T03:11:34.560" UserId="3373" Text="**Il Saggiatore** by Galileo Galilei was written in 1623&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**https://sites.icmc.usp.br/andcarva/il_saggiatore.pdf**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If I'm correct, it portrays the conjunction of Saturn with Jupiter and Venus in the constellation Cancer and Rubens based his painting on Galileo's work. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since planets were considered &quot;stars&quot; and &quot;luminaries&quot; in astrological parole, and portrayed as such in astronomical texts, there was no reason to portray the planetai otherwise. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; [![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/NiCWs.jpg&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I hope this works for you, &#xD;&#xA;Thank you. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27986" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10185" RevisionGUID="209ca84e-3184-4897-a849-0445483a5be2" CreationDate="2021-10-06T12:07:01.120" UserId="7315" Text="Unfortunately, our knowledge of Continental Germanic mythology is extremely limited, due to the fragmentary nature of the available sources. We know that Continental Germanic mythology and Norse mythology both originated from the body of myths of the speakers of the Proto-Germanic language (the wikipedia page on [Proto-Germanic folklore][1] provides a very nice list of gods and entities with common origin), but it's hard to tell how much the two religions diverged over the centuries.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, let us consider the [Second Merseburg Charm][2], which is perhaps the best example of Continental Germanic pagan belief (translation from Old High German by Benjamin W. Fortson):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Phol and Wodan were riding to the woods,  &#xD;&#xA;and the foot of Balder's foal was sprained  &#xD;&#xA;So Sinthgunt, Sunna's sister, conjured it;  &#xD;&#xA;and Frija, Volla's sister, conjured it;  &#xD;&#xA;and Wodan conjured it, as well he could [...]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's easy to recognize in *Wodan*, *Balder*, *Sunna*, *Frija*, and *Volla* the corresponding Norse deities (*Óðinn*, *Baldr*, *Sól*, *Frigg*, and *Fulla*). But what about *Sinthgunt*? Was she an exclusively Continental Germanic goddess? Was she present in the Old Norse corpus with another name? Or was she a member of the Norse pantheon that simply does not appear in the sources at our disposal? We simply don't have enough elements to give definite answers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More importantly, there is a growing consensus among scholars that the notion of a coherent, unified Norse mythology, as it is presented in most of the Norse corpus (i.e. the [Prose][3] and [Poetic Eddas][4]) is not an accurate representation of the religious beliefs in Viking Age Scandinavia. Similar considerations apply to Continental Germanic religions. Terry Gunnell deals with this issue in his article [Pantheon? What Pantheon?][5], and says&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [...] there is reason to consider that many of the gods&#xD;&#xA;known in the Germanic and Scandinavian world were tribally-, area-, or&#xD;&#xA;clan- (family-) related [...]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Arguably, part of the problem involves the way in which as scholars&#xD;&#xA;of pre-Christian Scandinavian and Germanic religions, we often casually&#xD;&#xA;jump from talking of tribal groups or family clans like those mentioned&#xD;&#xA;in works like Tacitus' *Germania* to discussing national units like those&#xD;&#xA;reflected in Snorri's *Heimskringla*, often forgetting that there must have&#xD;&#xA;been middle stages, and that the new nations were made up of earlier&#xD;&#xA;tribes/clans, all of which would have had different historical, social,&#xD;&#xA;cultural, and religious backgrounds, and associations with different local&#xD;&#xA;areas with their own environmental concerns.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That is, it doesn't make much sense to compare Scandinavian and Continental Germanic mythologies as if they were monolithic entities, when in reality they were a collection of tribal and family cults which could be very different from each other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Germanic_folklore&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merseburg_charms#Second_Merseburg_Charm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prose_Edda&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.academia.edu/20384683/Pantheon_What_Pantheon" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27992" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10186" RevisionGUID="4daaa48b-152c-448c-957a-73be0d13f82a" CreationDate="2021-10-06T23:40:45.420" UserId="8590" Text="&gt;&quot;In English folklore, a willow tree is believed to be quite sinister, capable of uprooting itself and stalking travellers.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the Wikipedia page for willow it has this single sentence under the culture tab about English beliefs, with no reference. I was wondering if there is actually any backing to this, as anything I've tried googling has just come up with basically this same sentence on a bunch of different sites and nothing else relevant. Any confirmation that these beliefs existed and any sources or stories about walking or even otherwise sinister willows would be very appreciated thanks&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27994" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10186" RevisionGUID="4daaa48b-152c-448c-957a-73be0d13f82a" CreationDate="2021-10-06T23:40:45.420" UserId="8590" Text="Are there any accounts of english folklore concerning walking willow trees?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27995" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10186" RevisionGUID="4daaa48b-152c-448c-957a-73be0d13f82a" CreationDate="2021-10-06T23:40:45.420" UserId="8590" Text="|folklore|source-request|european-folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="27999" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5144" RevisionGUID="6f219057-23ab-4487-a583-d4f4257a6315" CreationDate="2021-10-07T09:48:28.827" UserId="810" Comment="added from the helpful comments" Text="The 3113 BCE date comes from the Classic Maya calendar. According to the ancient Maya, the current baktun, or creation period, started on August 11, 3113 BC, written in the Maya calendar system as  0.0.0.0.0 4 Ajaw 8 Kumku. The date and its significance are explained in the inscriptions of Palenque, Mexico, and Quirigua, Guatemala. It looks like someone is borrowing from the Maya to date the start of the Aztec First Sun. In fact, the Aztecs did not date the start of the First Sun in any form that modern scholars can recognize.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Each of the preceding Suns lasted 2028 years, [at least according to the French wikipedia](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A9gende_des_soleils) (which has some more details):&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;The total number of years for the first four suns is the same: (2028 years), but the distribution is different: (676-676-364-312) for the Historia de los Mexicanos and (676-364-312- 676) for the Leyenda de los soles. It is each time multiples of 52, that is to say the number of years corresponding to an Aztec 'century'.&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28000" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5144" RevisionGUID="6f219057-23ab-4487-a583-d4f4257a6315" CreationDate="2021-10-07T09:48:28.827" Comment="Proposed by 810 approved by 398, 108 edit id of 1875" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28001" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10186" RevisionGUID="a0bc53a8-c910-4f90-8d05-06759dfc91e2" CreationDate="2021-10-07T09:53:45.450" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags; edited title" Text="Are there any accounts of English folklore concerning walking willow trees?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28002" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="10186" RevisionGUID="a0bc53a8-c910-4f90-8d05-06759dfc91e2" CreationDate="2021-10-07T09:53:45.450" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags; edited title" Text="|folklore|source-request|european-folklore|british|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28003" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10187" RevisionGUID="5408df30-5b0f-4598-bad9-531fa19d3994" CreationDate="2021-10-07T10:01:25.163" UserId="108" Text="This is not an account per se, but it *is* a source that proves such a belief existed in English folklore. Katharine Mary Briggs documents a Somerset rhyme that goes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ellum do grieve,    &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Oak he do hate,    &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Willow to walk,    &#xD;&#xA;&gt; If yew travels late&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dr. Briggs explains that the folksong embodies traditional beliefs that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; . . . if one elm tree is cut down, the one next him will die of grief, but if oaks are cut they will revenge themselves if they can. The lively way in which shoots spring from the roots of felled oaks probably contributes to this belief. A coppice of this kind is a dangerous place for humans to pass through at night. **Willow is the worst of all, for he walks behind belated travellers muttering.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source: Briggs, Katharine Mary. *The fairies in tradition and literature.* Psychology Press, 2002." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28005" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10188" RevisionGUID="cda76d07-e4e2-4a05-8ae2-2b29c5257519" CreationDate="2021-10-07T10:08:20.937" UserId="7315" Text="From the &quot;fairy trees&quot; entry (page 159) of [An Encyclopedia of Fairies Hobgoblins, Brownies, Bogies, and Other Supernatural Creatures][1] by Katharine Mary Briggs:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ruth Tongue collected a folk-song in Somerset whose chorus illustrates&#xD;&#xA;the popular belief about three very different trees: &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Ellum do grieve,  &#xD;&#xA;Oak he do hate,   &#xD;&#xA;Willow do walk  &#xD;&#xA;If you travels late.*  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[...] Willows were even more&#xD;&#xA;sinister, for they had a habit of uprooting themselves on a dark night and&#xD;&#xA;following a solitary traveller, muttering. Tolkien is faithful to folk&#xD;&#xA;tradition in the ogre-ish behaviour of *[Old Man Willow][2]*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Indeed, J.R.R. Tolkien would often draw from English folklore in the creation of his literary universe. Similarly, I wouldn't be surprised if J.K. Rowling's inspiration for her *Whomping Willow* came from English folklore as well, either directly or through Tolkien.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://archive.org/details/BriggsKatharineMaryAnEncyclopediaOfFairies/mode/2up&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Man_Willow" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28007" PostHistoryTypeId="12" PostId="10188" RevisionGUID="1c923095-35b9-4e4c-b4bc-e086c6e71cdd" CreationDate="2021-10-07T10:09:05.893" UserId="7315" Comment="via Vote" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:7315,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Gullintanni&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="28008" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10188" RevisionGUID="23598714-cb01-4a6e-b232-f9ff59ac90ba" CreationDate="2021-10-07T10:26:11.777" UserId="7315" Comment="deleted 314 characters in body" Text="To expand slightly on the answer by @Semaphore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In her [An Encyclopedia of Fairies Hobgoblins, Brownies, Bogies, and Other Supernatural Creatures][1] (page 159), after the Somerset rhyme, Katharine Mary Briggs adds:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tolkien is faithful to folk&#xD;&#xA;tradition in the ogre-ish behaviour of *[Old Man Willow][2]*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Indeed, J.R.R. Tolkien would often draw from English folklore in the creation of his literary universe. Similarly, I wouldn't be surprised if J.K. Rowling's inspiration for her *Whomping Willow* came from English folklore as well, either directly or through Tolkien.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://archive.org/details/BriggsKatharineMaryAnEncyclopediaOfFairies/mode/2up&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Man_Willow" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28009" PostHistoryTypeId="13" PostId="10188" RevisionGUID="e88bc569-16e7-41a4-b8db-dfb9f0a841a7" CreationDate="2021-10-07T10:26:16.483" UserId="7315" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:7315,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Gullintanni&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="28010" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10189" RevisionGUID="73ef27db-e4d2-40bc-a3d5-4725abe8bf6a" CreationDate="2021-10-07T14:00:43.000" UserId="7106" Text="It depends on what you mean by dragons, if you are thinking of the typical Tolkien giant lizard, fire breathing, winged fantasy animal it is going to be hard to find very early myths containing those, as this are relatively modern (13th century).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you instead allow for large mythical serpents with fantastical features then there are many myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Mesopotamian mythology, Tiamat, as presented in the *Enûma Elish* is a large monstrous sea serpent that shaped the world (with the help of another god) and created the gods and monsters. Similarly, Gucumatz/Kukulkan/Quetzalcoatl in Mesoamerican mythology, is a feathered serpent that also brought forth the earth (with the help of another god) from the waters of creation. Australian Rainbow Snake is also a creator god. There is also the Greek Orphic alternative myths where a cosmic egg gives origin to the cosmos, usually hatched by a serpent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other honorable mentions of mythological snakes related to early myths of first gods include Egyptian Apophis (born from Ra), Greek Typhon (father of monsters) and Chinese Nüwa (creator of mankind)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28013" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10190" RevisionGUID="5cdc4ffa-9d91-4411-b135-cc0aed8b685e" CreationDate="2021-10-08T13:58:38.973" UserId="7315" Text="## **Reconstruction of Proto-Polynesian mythology**&#xD;&#xA;It seems that attempts at reconstructing an overall Polynesian mythology are not as abundant and convincing as in the case of Proto-Indo-European. However, there are many articles which use the comparative approach to study specific mythological themes and motifs. For example, in [The First-Order Anthropomorphic Gods of Polynesia][1] &#xD;&#xA;and [Was There an Early Polynesian ‘Sky Father’?][2] Jeff Marck compares recurring themes in Polynesian religions. Also, in the first section of both articles he gives an overview on previous reconstructions and comparative studies on Polynesian mythologies which you might find useful for further reading.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;More recently, Martina Buckova has written several articles on specific recurring motifs in Polynesian mythologies (e.g. [1][3], [2][4], [3][5], [4][6], [5][7]), and [a book][8] on the Polynesian culture hero [Māui][9].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## **Australian mythology**&#xD;&#xA;On Australian mythology, Michael Witzel in section 5.3.2 of his book [The Origins of the World's Mythologies][10] (2013), gives a nice overview on the similarities and differences between various Australian mythologies. However, regarding a reconstructed pan-Australian mythology he comments:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[...] have the Australians just preserved a late stage of Pan-Gaean mythology,&#xD;&#xA;which already had, for example, a world tree? To answer this question would&#xD;&#xA;depend on a secure dating of the **(so far not yet) reconstructed pan-Australian&#xD;&#xA;mythology** [...]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also it should be noted that, while ambitious (and certainly useful in some respects), the book is quite controversial. See for exemple [Bruce Lincoln's review][11].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## **Further reading on Proto-Indo-European mythology**&#xD;&#xA;In my opinion, the best starting point on this subject is Jaan Puhvel's *Comparative Mythology*. It's a wonderful introduction to comparative Indo-European mythology. Other recommended reads are definitely *Indo-European Poetry and Myth* by M. L. West and *Death, War, and Sacrifice* by Bruce Lincoln.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you are particularly interested in the reconstructed Proto-Indo-European pantheon, Peter Jackson's article [Light from Distant Asterisks. Towards a Description of the Indo-European Religious Heritage][12] is a must read.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.jps.auckland.ac.nz/document//Volume_105_1996/Volume_105%2C_No._2/The_first-order_anthropomorphic_gods_of_Polynesia%2C_by_Jeff_Marck%2C_p_217-258/p1&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00223349608572803&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.sav.sk/journals/uploads/101415325_Buckov%C3%A1.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.sav.sk/journals/uploads/091911126_Buckov%C3%A1.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.sav.sk/journals/uploads/092611369_Buckov%C3%A1.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.sav.sk/journals/uploads/0919110805_Buckova_220-239.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.sav.sk/journals/uploads/0528085402_Buckova_PART2_FINAL.pdf&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://books.google.com/books/about/M%C4%81ui_Polynesian_Culture_Hero_Variations.html?id=bHSYAgAAQBAJ&amp;redir_esc=y&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%81ui_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://oxford.universitypressscholarship.com/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780195367461.001.0001/acprof-9780195367461&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: http://nirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp/nfile/4451&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://www.jstor.org/stable/3270472" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28015" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="7744" RevisionGUID="97c06c34-0bbd-4963-9d38-ada055079dc7" CreationDate="2021-10-08T21:02:55.273" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="28018" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10189" RevisionGUID="7f62e622-bf68-43d5-8523-3788fb4e22fb" CreationDate="2021-10-11T16:16:30.023" UserId="7106" Comment="added 9 characters in body" Text="It depends on what you mean by dragons, if you are thinking of the typical Tolkien giant lizard, fire breathing, winged fantasy animal it is going to be hard to find very early myths containing those, as these dragons are relatively modern (13th century).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you instead allow for large mythological serpents with fantastical features then there are many myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Mesopotamian mythology, Tiamat, as presented in the *Enûma Elish* is a large monstrous sea serpent that shaped the world (with the help of another god) and created the gods and monsters. Similarly, Gucumatz/Kukulkan/Quetzalcoatl in Mesoamerican mythology, is a feathered serpent that also brought forth the earth (with the help of another god) from the waters of creation. Australian Rainbow Snake is also a creator god. There is also the Greek Orphic alternative myths where a cosmic egg gives origin to the cosmos, usually hatched by a serpent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other honorable mentions of mythological snakes related to early myths of first gods include Egyptian Apophis (born from Ra), Greek Typhon (father of monsters) and Chinese Nüwa (creator of mankind)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28030" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10193" RevisionGUID="23e95236-b702-458b-8f73-7812b1448c86" CreationDate="2021-10-13T09:53:43.853" UserId="8629" Text="*Maybe I should have slept on this question for a little bit, but here I go.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am working on a TRPG and a setting that would accompany the TRPG. In my setting all monsters are or were humans, so rather than slaying them, as in D&amp;D, you can always &quot;save them&quot; and &quot;turn them back&quot; into humans. Thus, the players will always have a dilemma when meeting a monster - do we risk capturing and saving them or rationalize why it was okay to kill it, punish it? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In order to keep this narrative, I need to populate the setting with monsters that could be &quot;saved&quot; and create traditions (magic, tales, etc.) on how to &quot;save&quot; them. Thus, I am looking for real-life mythologies and folklore that could function as inspiration.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What I am NOT looking for is traditions about werewolves being able to transform into a human. I am talking about the idea that all monsters are or were humans once, and by doing &quot;X&quot; (like helping them, performing a spell, ritual, etc.), the monster can be &quot;saved&quot; and turned back into a human or at least civilized. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I also know that Christian exorcism exists, but is there anything else?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Honestly, any info about similar concepts like &quot;monsters turning back into humans&quot; or &quot;monsters being saved or re-gaining their humanity&quot; would be appreciated. I can read on the specific myths or traditions myself.** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Thank you for taking the time to read and answer my question!** " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28032" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10193" RevisionGUID="23e95236-b702-458b-8f73-7812b1448c86" CreationDate="2021-10-13T09:53:43.853" UserId="8629" Text="Are there myths, folklore, tales, or other traditions/tales about monsters regaining their humanity permanently?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28033" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10193" RevisionGUID="23e95236-b702-458b-8f73-7812b1448c86" CreationDate="2021-10-13T09:53:43.853" UserId="8629" Text="|myth-identification|mythical-creatures|folklore|symbolism|reference-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28034" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10194" RevisionGUID="11f12de8-4213-42a7-9335-ef57954bfcb0" CreationDate="2021-10-13T14:31:05.403" UserId="7315" Text="## **In Fairy Tales**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am sure you are familiar with the [Beauty and the Beast][1] fairy tale. There are many variants of the tale, all belonging to the &quot;Beauty and the Beast&quot; folk motif (tale type ATU 425C in the [Aarne–Thompson–Uther Index][2]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Closely related motifs are type ATU 425A &quot;[The Animal (Monster) as Bridegroom][3]&quot; and type ATU 433B &quot;[King Lindworm][4]&quot;. They all involve grooms (often princes) turned into various kinds of monsters or animals, and a maiden who has to perform a specific task or ritual to disenchant them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can find many versions of these tales listed in the Wikipedia pages I linked above, as well as a comprehensive list of tales related to the *Beauty and the Beast* [here][5].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## **The Metamorphoses of Apuleius**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [this][6] ancient Roman novel a man named Lucius unwittingly turn itself into an ass. Even though you asked specifically for monsters (and not simple animals) regaining their human form, you might still find this particular novel interesting. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The process through which he breaks the spell is described in detail in the last book, and it involves several steps: seven purifying baths in the sea, the invocation of the goddess Isis, and eating a crown of roses held by a priest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beauty_and_the_Beast&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aarne%E2%80%93Thompson%E2%80%93Uther_Index&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_as_Bridegroom&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Lindworm&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.surlalunefairytales.com/a-g/beauty-beast/beauty-beast-related.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Ass" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28036" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10195" RevisionGUID="61ba8a10-2668-416e-9a4d-578e55ddcfbc" CreationDate="2021-10-14T09:12:36.230" UserId="8635" Text="As mentioned in the title, I am writing a story, in which the greek gods appear. The main point I need is, when exactly the many greek gods such as important figures like Zeus, Hades, Poseidon, Cronos etc. appeared in history for the first time. Bascially, when did they have an cultural impact and slowly over time &quot;lost&quot; their meaning. It is a very big story and I am trying to be as accurate as possible with respect to the many cultures I am using. I am not well-versed in history or great at researching, which is why I am asking here, hoping some experts can help me out. It is important for me, to have a deeper understanding of the context regarding my question. Preferably in the form of books, internet sources, videos or at least based on their own experiences&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Edit: This question has been previously asked on the history forum and it was decided to post it here. Another thing is, it was explained to me, that asking for sources, may not be the right approach, since they tend to be more subjectively then factually correct. Especially when trying to clarify the nature of the timeline, when greek gods played a huge role in history." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28038" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10195" RevisionGUID="61ba8a10-2668-416e-9a4d-578e55ddcfbc" CreationDate="2021-10-14T09:12:36.230" UserId="8635" Text="I am writing a story about greeks gods and in dire need of accurate chronological references I can use" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28039" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10195" RevisionGUID="61ba8a10-2668-416e-9a4d-578e55ddcfbc" CreationDate="2021-10-14T09:12:36.230" UserId="8635" Text="|gods|chronology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28040" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10194" RevisionGUID="1b27fddd-1e7b-4dc2-a193-e4f3f158ad3f" CreationDate="2021-10-14T09:56:04.807" UserId="7315" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="## **In Fairy Tales**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am sure you are familiar with the [Beauty and the Beast][1] fairy tale. There are many variants of the tale, all belonging to the &quot;Beauty and the Beast&quot; folk motif (tale type ATU 425C in the [Aarne–Thompson–Uther Index][2]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Closely related motifs are type ATU 425A &quot;[The Animal (Monster) as Bridegroom][3]&quot; and type ATU 433B &quot;[King Lindworm][4]&quot;. They all involve grooms (often princes) turned into various kinds of monsters or animals, and a maiden who has to perform a specific task or ritual to disenchant them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can find many versions of these tales listed in the Wikipedia pages I linked above, as well as a comprehensive list of tales related to the *Beauty and the Beast* [here][5].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## **The Metamorphoses of Apuleius**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [this][6] ancient Roman novel a man named Lucius unwittingly turns himself into an ass. Even though you asked specifically for monsters (and not simple animals) regaining their human form, you might still find this particular novel interesting. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The process through which he breaks the spell is described in detail in the last book, and it involves several steps: seven purifying baths in the sea, the invocation of the goddess Isis, and eating a crown of roses held by a priest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beauty_and_the_Beast&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aarne%E2%80%93Thompson%E2%80%93Uther_Index&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_as_Bridegroom&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Lindworm&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.surlalunefairytales.com/a-g/beauty-beast/beauty-beast-related.html&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Ass" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28041" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10196" RevisionGUID="94a50c0e-6f64-4983-85d5-d3cbc1bb7627" CreationDate="2021-10-14T10:56:33.963" UserId="5511" Text="It *really* depends on how you define &quot;appeared in history for the first time&quot;. Let me illustrate by an example:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus may be known to most as a Greek god, but this deity (and his name) is actually based on a much older proto-Indo-European deity called *[Dyeus ph2tēr][1]* (lit. &quot;father daylight-sky-god&quot;) - hence the Roman Jupiter. Dyeus is also the origin of a similar deity in the Vedic, Thracian and Hittite pantheons. Of these the Vedic is probably the oldest recorded in writing. So what do you want to take as the &quot;point of origin&quot; in this case? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even if you limit the scope to Greece, there are conflicting origin stories for most of the deities. My recommendation would be to take one historical source, like the collection of myths attributed to Appollodorus and take those as &quot;canon&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Perseus Library - Greek and English][2] &#xD;&#xA; - [English Translation by Frazer][3]&#xD;&#xA; - [Condensed English Text Version][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dy%C4%93us&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/searchresults?q=apollodorus&amp;redirect=true&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://archive.org/details/apollodoruslibra01apol/page/n5/mode/2up&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus1.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28043" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10197" RevisionGUID="b1a9b64d-e21a-4a8a-b00c-d264d425e36d" CreationDate="2021-10-14T23:29:03.517" UserId="6920" Text="When the archeologists managed to decipher Linear B, they found many shopping lists that included purchases of sacrifices for this god or that.  The only Olympian missing was Apollo. Thus, all the rest go back to the earliest records.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Who does appear in *The Iliad*, so that is about the only god whose appearance in history can be dated.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(I note that some theorized that Dionysus was a later comer because of his not appearing in *The Iliad*, but he's listed in the shopping lists.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28045" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10197" RevisionGUID="d470b2f7-54a1-444d-987b-b44784e4ec1a" CreationDate="2021-10-15T00:19:46.493" UserId="6920" Comment="grammar error" Text="When the archeologists managed to decipher Linear B, they found many shopping lists that included purchases of sacrifices for this god or that.  The only Olympian missing was Apollo. Thus, all the rest go back to the earliest records.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollo does appear in *The Iliad*, so that is about the only god whose appearance in history can be dated.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(I note that some theorized that Dionysus was a later comer because of his not appearing in *The Iliad*, but he's listed in the shopping lists.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28047" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10198" RevisionGUID="92c5102b-6558-413d-b038-da5d99b2f525" CreationDate="2021-10-17T11:59:29.763" UserId="8640" Text="![enter image description here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/J6QNo.jpg)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Ancients have always had a process of deification (apotheosis) which made it possible for mere mortals, other living things, or even an abstract idea to gain god status.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Membership to the divine club was conferred on many who had served humanity in some grand fashion or they had otherwise proven themselves. Some got in by getting hitched to a god and a few just happened to be at the right place at the right time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Take for example, Phryne (aka Mnesarete). She was an Ancient Greek prostitute who was rumored to be the richest woman in Athens. Not only was her clientele rumored to include the who’s who of the city at the time, but she was so rich she offered to rebuild the wall of Thebes which, was destroyed by Alexander the Great decades before she was even born. However, she did have one condition which was that the builders install a plaque to commemorate the generosity of “Phryne the Courtesan”.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The people decided that in that case, it was thanks but no thanks! They probably couldn’t bear the thought of such a revered monument destroyed by Alexander the Great was being rebuilt by a high-priced hooker who was also going to rub it in their faces.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Phryne was eventually brought before the court for her sinful ways although some say it was because she was profaning the Eleusinian mysteries. Anyhow, as she was on trial for a capital offense a guilty verdict meant she would have to drink poison. This appears to be the practice in Ancient Greece if you lose a capital case.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As the trial progressed the evidence against her was very overwhelming that it was certain she would be convicted. Well, she was a prostitute after all. So she (in some accounts it was her rich lawyer/lover, Hypereides) in one last effort to sway the jury, tore off her dress to reveal her beautifully sculptured yellow-toned body to the jury in all its glory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These wise old men took one long look at her and realized that only the gods could mold such a flawless body and killing her would certainly be an affront to said, gods. Thus they declared her a prophetess of Aphrodite and set her free.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have more examples here if you would like:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;5 Criminals Who Became Gods&#xD;&#xA;A new meaning to rewarding bad behavior&#xD;&#xA;https://medium.com/@timdahi60/5-criminals-who-became-gods-1ac14b634c0d&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28049" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10195" RevisionGUID="3f5de3f9-8be4-4d96-bf4a-32a5fb099d56" CreationDate="2021-10-18T09:36:16.700" UserId="6376" Comment="typo in the title, removed redundant &quot;intro&quot;" Text="I am writing a story, in which the greek gods appear. The main point I need is, when exactly the many greek gods such as important figures like Zeus, Hades, Poseidon, Cronos etc. appeared in history for the first time. Bascially, when did they have an cultural impact and slowly over time &quot;lost&quot; their meaning. It is a very big story and I am trying to be as accurate as possible with respect to the many cultures I am using. I am not well-versed in history or great at researching, which is why I am asking here, hoping some experts can help me out. It is important for me, to have a deeper understanding of the context regarding my question. Preferably in the form of books, internet sources, videos or at least based on their own experiences&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Edit: This question has been previously asked on the history forum and it was decided to post it here. Another thing is, it was explained to me, that asking for sources, may not be the right approach, since they tend to be more subjectively then factually correct. Especially when trying to clarify the nature of the timeline, when greek gods played a huge role in history." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28050" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10195" RevisionGUID="3f5de3f9-8be4-4d96-bf4a-32a5fb099d56" CreationDate="2021-10-18T09:36:16.700" UserId="6376" Comment="typo in the title, removed redundant &quot;intro&quot;" Text="I am writing a story about greek gods and in dire need of accurate chronological references I can use" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28051" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="10195" RevisionGUID="3f5de3f9-8be4-4d96-bf4a-32a5fb099d56" CreationDate="2021-10-18T09:36:16.700" Comment="Proposed by 6376 approved by 53, 7315 edit id of 1876" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28052" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10128" RevisionGUID="1b6774d2-3a48-48b8-82dd-c5ddb5fa9141" CreationDate="2021-10-18T09:37:36.913" UserId="6376" Comment="removed unnecessary &quot;intro&quot;, italicised title" Text="If you are looking for a blend of wide ranging mythology set in a modern context, Neil Gaiman's *American Gods* is a solid place to start. He's done a bit of writing on myth generally, and this blends things nicely into social commentary and just (in my opinion) a stellar story. It's fiction, but it's well worth checking out. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28053" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="10128" RevisionGUID="1b6774d2-3a48-48b8-82dd-c5ddb5fa9141" CreationDate="2021-10-18T09:37:36.913" Comment="Proposed by 6376 approved by 53, 7315 edit id of 1877" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28058" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5312" RevisionGUID="5547e7e3-3cc1-4944-8dc8-9a2e351bc00b" CreationDate="2021-10-19T16:02:20.247" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="28063" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10201" RevisionGUID="96631cbf-2551-4acf-a85e-a3ed78cc06ce" CreationDate="2021-10-19T22:23:55.800" UserId="8657" Text="In a nutshell Hera is the Queen now.  Artemis is the Queen of the Jungle.&#xD;&#xA;After how harshly hera treated her, she's a shoe-in for the *prophesized* one.... &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That's why she's the Queen of the hunt.  She just needs a counterpart to Hera's Zeus to crown her queen.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And this is also why Apollo decided to go Bisexual one time with Hyacinthus.  Hyacinthus was not for him, but for Artemis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28065" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10202" RevisionGUID="1b38aa01-6a62-4c7c-bda7-14a3604404d9" CreationDate="2021-10-23T09:31:39.230" UserId="8667" Text="&quot;Hamlet's Mill&quot; emphasized the Precession and resettings for new World Ages.  Where can similar views be found?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28067" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10202" RevisionGUID="1b38aa01-6a62-4c7c-bda7-14a3604404d9" CreationDate="2021-10-23T09:31:39.230" UserId="8667" Text="Does anyone know of other publications by Hertha von Dechend, co-author of &quot;Hamlet's Mill&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28068" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10202" RevisionGUID="1b38aa01-6a62-4c7c-bda7-14a3604404d9" CreationDate="2021-10-23T09:31:39.230" UserId="8667" Text="|ages-of-man|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28069" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="10202" RevisionGUID="6d454315-a674-4c1b-8807-c092eaca2abb" CreationDate="2021-10-23T18:37:46.090" UserId="7315" Comment="edited tags" Text="|source-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28070" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10203" RevisionGUID="ac69898b-3037-49ae-81a8-5de95f67973f" CreationDate="2021-10-24T15:47:18.120" UserId="8670" Text="I don't think angels and demons can procreate...if they possess humans for procreation, then it will probably have angel's grace and corrupted soul of demon , contained by a human body, if the woman really survives to deliver the baby.Since demons are fallen angels (all males), so their offsprings would be the antichrist (half human and half demon).&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28072" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1385" RevisionGUID="11f64ed3-f045-42e1-92b4-007b5e0e5fdf" CreationDate="2021-10-26T02:03:25.307" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="28073" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10204" RevisionGUID="91e58b0d-7841-4200-9324-c00796c9336c" CreationDate="2021-10-26T11:22:30.820" UserId="8681" Text="Basically the traits should be long life, good looks, pointy features, thin, magically adept and closer to divinity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think, Yaksha of Hindu Mythology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;could potentially be one candidate but he seems to ugly (broad features).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, if anyone knows of some beings that are equivalent of elves in non-euro religions, let me know!!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/bLhas.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28075" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10204" RevisionGUID="91e58b0d-7841-4200-9324-c00796c9336c" CreationDate="2021-10-26T11:22:30.820" UserId="8681" Text="Are there any non-European versions of &quot;Elves&quot; in Indian/Persian/Arabic/Chinese/Meso-American folklore/fairy tales?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28076" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10204" RevisionGUID="91e58b0d-7841-4200-9324-c00796c9336c" CreationDate="2021-10-26T11:22:30.820" UserId="8681" Text="|hindu|chinese|persian|arabic|contemporary-mythology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28077" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10205" RevisionGUID="5ea28820-6451-402b-8ad0-544de0a62d86" CreationDate="2021-10-26T20:46:03.413" UserId="5511" Text="Not all depictions of elves in European mythology correspond to your criteria. Would it be correct to assume these criteria are solely based on the works of Tolkien?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Elves has been depicted as nasty little critters as well. In the late-fourteenth-century Wife of Bath's Tale, Geoffrey Chaucer equates male elves with incubi (demons which rape sleeping women).Because of elves' association with illness, in the twentieth century, most scholars imagined that elves in the Anglo-Saxon tradition were small, invisible, demonic beings, causing illnesses with arrows. &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28079" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10206" RevisionGUID="d4e86882-fbcc-4ee7-ad09-ca381ff0f08a" CreationDate="2021-10-26T22:32:22.587" UserId="6920" Text="Many such.  Most, like the genuine folkloric elf, have a lot more variation.  They may have monstrously ugly members, but they are often very close to the elf, and folktale may switch out the type as they translate across cultures.  Some are&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The Persian [peri][1] &#xD;&#xA; - the Arabic [jinn][2]&#xD;&#xA; - the Slavonic [vila][3] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peri&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinn&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vila_(fairy)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28081" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10207" RevisionGUID="49525172-ca30-4525-a73b-90cd11931537" CreationDate="2021-10-27T16:19:58.210" UserId="7315" Text="As @Codosaur pointed out in his answer, your description has more to do with post-Tolkien fantasy elves, rather than the supernatural beings featured in Germanic mythology and folklore (see the Wikipedia page for [Elves in fiction][1] for a nice discussion on the subject).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To answer your question, the Wikipedia page on [Elves][2], in the &quot;Equivalents in non-Germanic traditions&quot; section, provides a partial list of entities from other cultures which have similar attributes to Germanic elves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Among those, a non-European class of supernatural beings which seems to fit your description quite closely is that of the Maori [Patupaiarehe][3]. In his book *[Fairy Folk Tales of the Maori][4]*, James Cowan describes these &quot;supernatural, elusive sprites of the woods&quot; in such terms:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They are spoken of as an *iwi-atua*, a race of supernatural beings, and they are accredited with some of the marvellous powers attributed to the world of faerie in many other parts of the globe. [...] Most of the legends I have gathered give them the ordinary stature of mortals, while at the same time investing them with some of the characteristics of the enchanted tribes of other lands. [...] The *Patu-paiarehe* were for the most part of much lighter complexion than the Maori; their hair was of the dull golden or reddish hue “*uru-kehu*” [...]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They were greatly skilled in all manner of enchantments and magic [...]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover, they are often described as beautiful in folktales.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elves_in_fiction&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elf&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patupaiarehe&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-CowFair.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28085" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10171" RevisionGUID="e9d4e9a8-ac3a-4440-8d06-050dd2314c62" CreationDate="2021-10-27T23:45:32.783" UserId="6920" Comment="expand a point" Text="The term I have usually seen used, in the context of fairy tales, is &quot;contamination.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For instance, a folklorist might say that the Grimms' version of *Little Red Riding Hood* was contaminated by *The Wolf and The Seven Young Kids*, in that the ending was changed to save the heroine, in comparison with Perrault's version, where she dies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This term reflects a nineteenth-century view of fairy tales surviving in pure form from prehistoric eras, which was ill-founded, but the term has outlasted the belief." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28086" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10209" RevisionGUID="db5c1422-a554-49e1-ba3f-a2fa857aaae1" CreationDate="2021-10-29T05:18:07.690" UserId="8696" Text="Haudenosaunee (Iroquois) or Huron as well have stories of horned water serpent or creature.. (Creation and Confederation the Living history of the Iroquois Darren Bonaparte ch.7).&#xD;&#xA;Thanks for sharing your history. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28088" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10210" RevisionGUID="4f675d19-c0c1-4ca8-959f-b0f7cd5bd749" CreationDate="2021-10-29T14:57:13.773" UserId="8701" Text="Frigg cheated on Odin several times in the mythology. Also she could see the future so she knew that he would come back home. So it was not a mistake. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28090" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10211" RevisionGUID="f323f465-cb95-40b6-9825-57c01abc0766" CreationDate="2021-10-31T02:02:31.053" UserId="8708" Text="Robert Graves claims Atreus' first wife, Cleola, died giving birth to Pleisthenes as punishment for Atreus not sacrificing the golden lamb. I checked all his sources and couldn't find anything of the sort. I've been looking a long time for it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there an ancient source that says Artemis caused Cleola to die in childbirth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28092" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10211" RevisionGUID="f323f465-cb95-40b6-9825-57c01abc0766" CreationDate="2021-10-31T02:02:31.053" UserId="8708" Text="What source says Cleola died giving birth to Pleisthenes?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28093" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10211" RevisionGUID="f323f465-cb95-40b6-9825-57c01abc0766" CreationDate="2021-10-31T02:02:31.053" UserId="8708" Text="|greek|source-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28094" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10209" RevisionGUID="bf9bdf9c-f20d-47b1-9f3b-8814025d7a7f" CreationDate="2021-10-31T10:06:10.467" UserId="398" Comment="deleted 31 characters in body" Text="Haudenosaunee (Iroquois) or Huron also have stories of a horned water serpent or creature. See *Creation and Confederation the Living History of the Iroquois*, Darren Bonaparte, ch.7." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28095" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10212" RevisionGUID="fdf78bfd-5fbc-4947-b56c-696631232109" CreationDate="2021-10-31T12:29:17.627" UserId="5806" Text="I have researched a lot of things in ancient mythology, but I can not pinpoint you on specific texts. I can only give you my opinion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To understand gods, you have to understand human. Follow the nature of that relationship. A human man has a wife. The wife is weaker than the man. Man has physical strength and if woman sees an enraged man, she will fear him and suppress her feelings and her speech.&#xD;&#xA;On the other hand, if a woman realize that her man was cheating her with another woman, she will envy and fill her heart with so much rage that even men would fear her. If a woman would have to fight for her child, and the feeling is not flight but fight, we all know that we should not underestimate women. They might lose, but the battle would hurt a lot.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We have also seen women commit crimes for their lovers. Either murder their husband, or their lover, or both, either pull the strings to destroy their lover, or their man, or both.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Let's go back to Zeus and Hera, the perfect couple. Perfect through the representation of the whole imperfection of that relationship. Whoever would question the perfection of that marriage would be doomed to Hera's wrath. Note that down, Hera's wrath. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus having sex with mortals. That made Hera furious too. So what does Zeus prefer? A silent or a furious Hera? Neither of them, but surely he would prefer the furious one. Because Hera in silence is unpredictable. She sent snakes to kill Herakles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles, in greek ΗΡΑΚΛΗΣ, means 'Hera's Glory' (from the words ΗΡΑ, ΚΛΕΟΣ)&#xD;&#xA;and was given as a name so Hera would not throw all her wrath on him. Of course Hera did not fall for that. She haunted him. And Hera did a lot of smart and malicious things against Zeus lovers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Was she fair? Was she good? Was she evil? Who cares? She was a woman in envy. And that EXACTLY is the power Hera had and Zeus didn't wanted to play with. Because that is what Ancient Greek myths is all about. Human and his imperfection glorified and justified in a relative way, during those years.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also Hera is smart. She is Zeus sister. She has not swallowed Metis, as Zeus did, but still, she can bend the very same rules Zeus set, at her own will. Zeus knows that. Also Hera is the model of the perfect woman. Even if Zeus was cheating her, she never did. That is why she is the goddess that defends marriage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hera can cause trouble. Zeus has to keep things in balance. You can see the dynamics here." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28097" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10213" RevisionGUID="d5bb98e9-886d-4519-aac9-5c0db1364577" CreationDate="2021-11-01T12:23:49.367" UserId="7315" Text="You should keep in mind that Graves often takes some liberties in his retellings of Greek myths, adding details and personal interpretations in order to make a more readable and coherent whole out of often fragmentary and contradictory traditions (see the &quot;Reception&quot; section of the Wikipedia page on his book *[The Greek Myths][1]* for a discussion on the quality of his retellings).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Let us examine his retelling of the myth of Atreus' golden lamb:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Now, Atreus had once vowed to sacrifice the finest of his flocks to&#xD;&#xA;Artemis; and Hermes, anxious to avenge the death of Myrtilus on the&#xD;&#xA;Pelopids, consulted his old friend Goat-Pan, who made a horned lamb with&#xD;&#xA;a golden fleece appear among the Acarnanian flock which Pelops had left to&#xD;&#xA;his sons Atreus and Thyestes. [...]&#xD;&#xA;Atreus kept his vow,&#xD;&#xA;in part at least, by sacrificing the lamb’s flesh; but he stuffed and mounted&#xD;&#xA;the fleece and locked it in a chest. [...] But&#xD;&#xA;Atreus, whose wife Cleola had died after giving birth to a weakly son,&#xD;&#xA;Pleisthenes – this was Artemis’ revenge on him for his failure to keep the&#xD;&#xA;vow – married Aerope, and begot on her Agamemnon, Menelaus, and&#xD;&#xA;Anaxibia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this specific case, it seems quite clear that he is conflating various diverging accounts of the same myth. One involving Hermes avenging the death of his son Myrtilus, as in Euripides' play *Orestes* (among other sources):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; From this came a woeful curse upon my house, brought to birth among the sheep by the *son of Maia* [Hermes], when there appeared a baleful, baleful portent of a lamb with golden fleece, for Atreus, breeder of horses.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Eur. *Orest.* 995-1000][2]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A second account in which Pan intervenes, as told again by Euripides in his *Electra*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The story remains in old legends that Pan, the keeper of wild beasts, breathing sweet-voiced music on his well-joined pipes, once brought from its tender mother on Argive hills a lamb with beautiful golden fleece. A herald stood on the stone platform and cried aloud, “To assembly, Mycenaeans, go to assembly to see the omens given to our blessed rulers.” ...and they honored the house of Atreus.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Eur. El. 699-712][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And a third one which relates Atreus' vow to Artemis. See for example the Epitome of  Apollodorus' *Library*:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And Atreus once vowed to sacrifice to Artemis the finest of his flocks; but when a golden lamb appeared, they say that he neglected to perform his vow, and having choked the lamb, he deposited it in a box and kept it there, and Aerope gave it to Thyestes, by whom she had been debauched.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Ap. *Epit.* 2.10-11][4]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice how Cleola is not mentioned in any of the above-mentioned sources. She does instead appear as Pleisthenes' mother in a scholion on Euripides' *Orestes*:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;And Atreus, having married Cleola the daughter of Dias, fathered Pleisthenes, who was weak in body and who married Eriphyle and fathered Agamemnon and Menelaus and Anaxibia.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[schol. Eur. *Or.* 4][5]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It should be stressed however how in other sources she appears instead as Pleisthenes' wife, and in most accounts it's Aerope who gives birth to Agamemnon, Menelaus, and Anaxibia. In fact, the whole genealogy of the Pelopids appears extremely confusing and inconsistent in the corpus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems that Graves, in an attempt to take into account as many sources as possible without contradicting himself, fashioned a somewhat coherent retelling in which&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - both Hermes, Pan, and Artemis intervene&#xD;&#xA; - Agamemnon and Menelaus are the sons of Atreus and Aerope, as per most accounts of the myth&#xD;&#xA; - Cleola dies during childbirth, perhaps to get rid of a character about whom very little is said, and to make room for the better attested Aerope as the mother of Agamemnon and Menelaus&#xD;&#xA; - Artemis' wrath is used to explain Cleola's death and Pleisthenes' weakness, which is otherwise unexplained in the corpus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For extensive academic reviews on the myth of Atreus' golden lamb and on Pleisthenes' genealogy, I recommend you take a look at *Early Greek Myth: A Guide to Literary and Artistic Sources* by Timothy Gantz (pp. 545-550, and pp. 552-556), and at *Early Greek Mythography: Volume 2: Commentary* by R.L. Fowler (pp. 435-436).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Greek_Myths&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0116%3Acard%3D982&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0096%3Acard%3D699&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.theoi.com/Text/ApollodorusE.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://euripidesscholia.org/Edition/OrestesScholia_all.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28099" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10214" RevisionGUID="6f184bb8-6a9f-42e5-91b5-a02967ad17d8" CreationDate="2021-11-04T04:26:58.020" UserId="8708" Text="I have seen multiple sites and books state that Aegisthus was only seven years old when he killed Atreus, but have been unable to find the ancient source.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know that Robert Graves was liable to use his own imagination at times, but in this story, there seems to reason to do so, and even prefaces the statement with &quot;some say&quot; as if there is a source for this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other books that state this include *The Encyclopedia of Mythology: Gods, Heroes, and Legends of the Greeks and Romans* by Eric Flaum and David Pandy" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28101" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10214" RevisionGUID="6f184bb8-6a9f-42e5-91b5-a02967ad17d8" CreationDate="2021-11-04T04:26:58.020" UserId="8708" Text="What ancient source says Aegisthus killed Atreus at 7 years old?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28102" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10214" RevisionGUID="6f184bb8-6a9f-42e5-91b5-a02967ad17d8" CreationDate="2021-11-04T04:26:58.020" UserId="8708" Text="|greek|source-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28103" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10215" RevisionGUID="3adcffc7-9587-4326-9e21-fa56fe2bf705" CreationDate="2021-11-05T01:07:06.340" UserId="8722" Text="Wasn't the Trojan war fought precisely because Helen was *not* of Troy, but of Greece? How come we call her &quot;Helen of Troy.&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28105" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10215" RevisionGUID="3adcffc7-9587-4326-9e21-fa56fe2bf705" CreationDate="2021-11-05T01:07:06.340" UserId="8722" Text="Shouldn't Helen of Troy be Helen of Greece?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28106" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10215" RevisionGUID="3adcffc7-9587-4326-9e21-fa56fe2bf705" CreationDate="2021-11-05T01:07:06.340" UserId="8722" Text="|greek|trojan-war|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28107" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10216" RevisionGUID="9bae807e-fb99-4f0a-8ae8-32920296e90a" CreationDate="2021-11-06T10:15:13.917" UserId="5511" Text="She is actually also known as beautiful Helen, Helen of Argos, or Helen of Sparta, depending on the source - and not all sources associate Helen with Troy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Euripides, Stesichorus, and Herodotus actually write Helen never went to Troy, but stayed in Egypt during the duration of the Trojan War. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Trojan association is the most popular nowadays, primarily because of the general awareness of (the existence of) Homer's work...and Hollywood." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28109" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10217" RevisionGUID="ae539655-7d61-47dd-b29c-73ace0c342c5" CreationDate="2021-11-06T13:04:51.823" UserId="7315" Text="I'm afraid this is another instance of Graves embellishing a myth with details which were not present in the sources he drew upon. In this particular case, it's not at all obvious why he would add the detail of Aegisthus being seven years old when he killed Atreus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is certain is that the age of Aegisthus is not mentioned at all in the two main sources we have for this myth (which are the only sources Graves cites in *The Greek Myths*), namely [*Fabulae 87* and *88*][1] by Hyginus, and Apollodorus' *Library* ([Epitome 2.14][2]).&#xD;&#xA;Even later, minor sources like Tzetzes' [Chiliades][3], Lactantius' scholia on Tatius' *Thebaid* ([4.306, in latin][4]), and the *[First][5]* and *[Second][6] Vatican Mythographers* (in latin), make no mention of a seven-year-old Aegisthus at the time of Atreus' death.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Instead, the last three sources use the latin expression &quot;cum adoleuisset&quot; (=&quot;when he grew up&quot;) in reference to Aegisthus' murder of Atreus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarly, this is how Robin Hard retells this part of the myth in *The Routledge Handbook of Greek Mythology* (a more academically oriented reference than Graves' *The Greek Myths*):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Some time&#xD;&#xA;later, Agamemnon and Menelaos caught Thyestes at Delphi and brought him back to&#xD;&#xA;Mycenae. Atreus threw him into prison and ordered Aigisthos (who was grown up by this&#xD;&#xA;time) to kill him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; As to why Graves would add the detail of Aegisthus' young age in his retelling of this myth, I can think of a couple of reasons:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - it adds to the tradegy having a child, first attempt to kill his biological father, then witness the suicide of his own mother, and finally kill the man who raised him&#xD;&#xA; - it makes more sense that a child would be manipulated first by Atreus and then by Thyestes into doing all of the above&#xD;&#xA;- the very young age of Aegisthus might make more sense chronologically, considering that he was younger than both Agamemnon and Menelaus, and that both of them were still youths when they found refuge in Sicyon after Atreus' death&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://topostext.org/work/206&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.theoi.com/Text/ApollodorusE.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.theoi.com/Text/TzetzesChiliades1.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://digiliblt.uniupo.it/xtf/view?docId=dlt000323/dlt000323.xml;chunk.id=d1893e11882;toc.depth=1;toc.id=d1893e10413;brand=default&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://digiliblt.uniupo.it/xtf/view?docId=dlt000364/dlt000364.xml;chunk.id=d1965e602;toc.depth=1;toc.id=d1965e151;brand=default&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://digiliblt.uniupo.it/xtf/view?docId=dlt000566/dlt000566.xml;chunk.id=d2489e1536;toc.depth=1;toc.id=;brand=default" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28111" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10218" RevisionGUID="2c0985f6-377f-4abb-817f-ec49e9dc8178" CreationDate="2021-11-07T22:14:42.773" UserId="8730" Text="&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know that the story was mentioned in&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;pherecydes  genealogy &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;scholia of Apollonius of Rhodes&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sophocles, Antigone&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;in Antipater of Thessalonica&#xD;&#xA; http://www.attalus.org/poetry/antipater2.html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;in Gaius Julius Hyginus -The Fabulae&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;in Greek Anthology&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://www.loebclassics.com/view/greek_anthology_5/1916/pb_LCL067.145.xml?result=1&amp;rskey=ggD6MQ&amp;readMode=reader&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;in Pindar&#xD;&#xA;http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0162%3Abook%3DP.%3Apoem%3D12&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;any surviving manuscripts ,of those previous works,or other works, that mention the story of danae being preganant by the golden shower of Zeus,that predate the 1st century CE?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28113" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10218" RevisionGUID="2c0985f6-377f-4abb-817f-ec49e9dc8178" CreationDate="2021-11-07T22:14:42.773" UserId="8730" Text="Any surviving manuscript mention the story of danae being preganant by the golden shower of Zeus,that predate the 1st century CE?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28114" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10218" RevisionGUID="2c0985f6-377f-4abb-817f-ec49e9dc8178" CreationDate="2021-11-07T22:14:42.773" UserId="8730" Text="|greek|zeus|perseus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28116" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="414" RevisionGUID="fcc76d05-c478-462a-b26b-8deef894ee9a" CreationDate="2021-11-08T02:22:42.410" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="28117" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10219" RevisionGUID="1f1a40e6-3866-43e9-a896-82a726c1f489" CreationDate="2021-11-08T18:00:10.273" UserId="7315" Text="The myth of Danae and the shower of gold appears on several vases dating to the 5th century BC. See for example [this *krater*][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and [this calyx][3]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To dispel any doubt regarding which myth is portrayed on these vases, notice how in the second picture the female character is labelled &quot;Danae&quot;. Also, [the back][5] of the same calyx depicts another scene from the same myth, namely the making of the wooden chest in which Danae and the newborn Perseus are thrown into the sea by Akrisios (also named on the vase).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Timothy Gantz (*Early Greek Myth: A Guide to Literary and Artistic Sources*, p. 302) both scenes appear often in 5th century vases, &quot;with Danae frequently holding up her skirts to catch the rain&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.theoi.com/Gallery/K1.14.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/HIl6K.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.theoi.com/Gallery/K1.12.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/WCmXq.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://fvankeur.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/hermitdanaecratercookzeusv3p4572.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28119" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10219" RevisionGUID="6e7eeebf-17ca-47f3-9eda-c10bbfc49ba9" CreationDate="2021-11-08T18:46:47.123" UserId="7315" Comment="added 5 characters in body" Text="The myth of Danae and the shower of gold appears on several vases dating back to the 5th century BC. See for example [this *krater*][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and [this calyx][3]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To dispel any doubt regarding which myth is portrayed on these vases, notice how in the second picture the female character is labelled &quot;Danae&quot;. Also, [the back][5] of the same calyx depicts another scene from the same myth, namely the making of the wooden chest in which Danae and the newborn Perseus are thrown into the sea by Akrisios (also named on the vase).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Timothy Gantz (*Early Greek Myth: A Guide to Literary and Artistic Sources*, p. 302) both scenes appear often in 5th century vases, &quot;with Danae frequently holding up her skirts to catch the rain&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.theoi.com/Gallery/K1.14.html&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/HIl6K.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.theoi.com/Gallery/K1.12.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/WCmXq.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://fvankeur.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/hermitdanaecratercookzeusv3p4572.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28120" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10218" RevisionGUID="680170cd-cee9-46a7-a6cf-2d3cabe08f35" CreationDate="2021-11-08T19:22:20.360" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; improved formatting" Text="I know that the story is mentioned in: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Pherecydes' *Genealogies* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - scholia of Apollonius of Rhodes&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Sophocles' *Antigone*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Antipater of Thessalonica](http://www.attalus.org/poetry/antipater2.html)&#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA; - Gaius Julius Hyginus' *Fabulae*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [the Greek Anthology](https://www.loebclassics.com/view/greek_anthology_5/1916/pb_LCL067.145.xml?result=1&amp;rskey=ggD6MQ&amp;readMode=reader)&#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA; - [one of Pindar's&#xD;&#xA;   odes](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0162%3Abook%3DP.%3Apoem%3D12)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any extant manuscripts of the above, or of any other works, predating the 1st century CE, which mention the story of Danae being impregnated by a golden shower from Zeus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28121" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10218" RevisionGUID="680170cd-cee9-46a7-a6cf-2d3cabe08f35" CreationDate="2021-11-08T19:22:20.360" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; improved formatting" Text="Is there any surviving manuscript older than the 1st century CE that mentions the story of Danae being impregnated by Zeus's golden shower?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28122" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10215" RevisionGUID="18f9429b-a168-4b3f-b397-c324352cf671" CreationDate="2021-11-09T18:03:22.937" UserId="8722" Comment="edited body; edited title" Text="Wasn't the Trojan war fought precisely because Helen was *not* of Troy, but of Sparta? How come we call her &quot;Helen of Troy.&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28123" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10215" RevisionGUID="18f9429b-a168-4b3f-b397-c324352cf671" CreationDate="2021-11-09T18:03:22.937" UserId="8722" Comment="edited body; edited title" Text="Shouldn't Helen of Troy be Helen of Sparta?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28127" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10221" RevisionGUID="0dd01709-c456-450a-a232-2bf2eef9d710" CreationDate="2021-11-10T08:17:40.797" UserId="5511" Text="The two staffs (or other objects held) generally represent the male and female, or other dualities. For example, there are depictions where in stead of staffs the deity is holding [Spondylus][1] and [Strombus][2] shells, known symbols for male and female.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Inca prayer to Viracocha contains several of these dualities:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Viracocha, Lord of the Universe!&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Whether male or female,**&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; at any rate commander of heat and reproduction,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; being one who,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; even with His spittle, can work sorcery,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Where art Thou?&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Would that Thou wert not hidden from this son of Thine!&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **He may be above;**&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **He may be below;**&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; or, perchance, abroad in space.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Where is his mighty judgment-seat?&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hear me!&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **He may be spread abroad among the upper waters;**&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **or, among the lower waters and their sands**&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He may be dwelling.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Creator of the world,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Creator of man,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; great among my ancestors,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; before Thee my eyes fail me,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; though I long to see Thee;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for, seeing Thee,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; knowing Thee,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; learning from Thee,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; understanding Thee,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I shall be seen by Thee,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; and Thou wilt know me.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **The Sun--the Moon;**&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **The Day--the Night;**&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Summer--Winter;**&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not in vain,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **in orderly succession,**&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **do they march to their destined place,**&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to their goal.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They arrive&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **wherever**&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Thy royal staff**&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Thou bearest.**&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Oh! Harken to me,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; listen to me,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; let it not befall&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that I grow weary&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and die.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spondylus&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strombus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28129" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10222" RevisionGUID="980ff4ae-6dd8-4d13-bb1a-7af732225290" CreationDate="2021-11-11T19:19:24.007" UserId="8748" Text="Most likely because of the argument: which came first?&#xD;&#xA;The Trojan War, Menelaus, and Helen were circa c 1194–1184 BC (Modern dating: c. 1260–1180 BC); whilst Sparta came into being circa 800 BC.  Ergo: there wasn’t a Sparta at the time." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28133" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="7669" RevisionGUID="20b5e4a7-c426-468e-95fa-bde975430fdd" CreationDate="2021-11-11T20:05:10.537" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="28135" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10224" RevisionGUID="91e3e3dd-75e0-44bc-b556-7ee324241767" CreationDate="2021-11-13T04:46:58.253" UserId="2682" Text="In Greek mythology, Telephassa's claim to fame is that she is, going by the commonest version of the genealogy, the mother of Kadmos [Cadmus], who built the citadel of Thebes in Boiotia [Boeotia]; of Europa, after whom the continent of Europe was named; and of Phoinix [Phoenix]. She bore these children to her husband Agenor, the king of the region which would later be named Phoenicia, from their son Phoinix, after he had succeeded Agenor on the throne.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as I have known, there is no ancient mention of Telephassa's own parentage, but according to [the Wikipedia article on her](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephassa), &quot;She was the daughter of Nilus, god of the Nile, and Nephele, a soft cloud Oceanid.&quot; The source cited for this is Stephen Fry's book *Mythos: The Greek Myths Retold*. (See p. 182 of the 2019 Chronicle Books edition thereof, under the alternate title of *Mythos: The Greek Myths Reimagined*.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Pherecydes, Agenor had two wives, the first of whom, Damno, was also his own niece, and is the one who bore him Phoinix. It was the second, named Argiope, who bore Kadmos and, according to Hyginus (*Fabulae* 178), Europa as well. This Argiope, says Pherecydes, was a daughter of the Nile River.&#xD;&#xA;     &#xD;&#xA;Even though no ancient source seems to do this, Robert Graves fairly explicitly equates Argiope with Telephassa, essentially saying that the former is an alias of the latter (p. 194 of *The Greek Myths: Complete Edition*, 1992, Penguin Books). And all of that being as it may, Argiope's mother is still nowhere mentioned.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only interaction aside from any of the above that I have encountered between an Oceanid and the River Nile comes from Servius' Commentary on Virgil's *Aeneid* 4.250, which gives us yet another cloud-nymph, namely Chione, as the daughter of the River Nile and the Oceanid Callirrhoe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One might perhaps assume that Callirrhoe is the wife of the Nile and/or that she gave birth to (at least some of) his other children, including Argiope, who (if we follow Graves) is = Telephassa. From there, one could perhaps allow that *Nephele*, literally &quot;Cloud,&quot; is a more generic term for Oceanids, who were personifications of the clouds. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond all this attempted puzzle-piece-sorting, Telephassa's pedigree in Fry's *Mythos* seems to me very much like an innovation on his part, and an almost completely arbitrary one at that. **Is there any ancient (or even mediaeval) source that explicitly names Telephassa as a daughter of Nephele (and of the Nile)?**   " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28137" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10224" RevisionGUID="91e3e3dd-75e0-44bc-b556-7ee324241767" CreationDate="2021-11-13T04:46:58.253" UserId="2682" Text="Is there any pre-modern attestation for Telephassa being a daughter of Nephele by the River Nile?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28138" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10224" RevisionGUID="91e3e3dd-75e0-44bc-b556-7ee324241767" CreationDate="2021-11-13T04:46:58.253" UserId="2682" Text="|greek|roman|family-tree|parentage|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28140" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10224" RevisionGUID="e4b22d5b-8a3a-4606-9290-9d79a60459b2" CreationDate="2021-11-13T20:36:00.533" UserId="2682" Comment="clarified a detail" Text="In Greek mythology, Telephassa's claim to fame is that she is, going by the commonest version of the genealogy, the mother of Kadmos [Cadmus], who built the citadel of Thebes in Boiotia [Boeotia]; of Europa, after whom the continent of Europe was named; and of Phoinix [Phoenix]. She bore these children to her husband Agenor, the king of the region which would later be named Phoenicia, from their son Phoinix, after he had succeeded Agenor on the throne.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as I have known, there is no ancient mention of Telephassa's own parentage, but according to [the Wikipedia article on her](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephassa), &quot;She was the daughter of Nilus, god of the Nile, and Nephele, a soft cloud Oceanid.&quot; The source cited for this is Stephen Fry's book *Mythos: The Greek Myths Retold*. (See p. 182 of the 2019 Chronicle Books edition thereof, under the alternate title of *Mythos: The Greek Myths Reimagined*.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Pherecydes, Agenor had two wives, the first of whom, Damno, was also his own niece, and is the one who bore him Phoinix. It was the second, named Argiope, who bore Kadmos and, according to Hyginus (*Fabulae* 178), Europa as well. This Argiope, says Pherecydes, was a daughter of the Nile River.&#xD;&#xA;     &#xD;&#xA;Even though no ancient source seems to do this, Robert Graves fairly explicitly equates Argiope with Telephassa, essentially saying that the former is an alias of the latter (p. 194 of *The Greek Myths: Complete Edition*, 1992, Penguin Books). And all of that being as it may, Argiope's mother is still nowhere mentioned.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only interaction aside from any of the above that I have encountered between an Oceanid and the River Nile comes from Servius' Commentary on Virgil's *Aeneid* 4.250, which gives us yet another cloud-nymph, namely Chione, as the daughter of the River Nile and the Oceanid Callirrhoe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One might perhaps assume that Callirrhoe is the wife of the Nile and/or that she gave birth to (at least some of) his other children, including Argiope, who (if we follow Graves) is = Telephassa. From there, one might grant that perhaps when Fry mentions *Nephele* here, he simply means &quot;an Oceanid&quot;, since the word literally means &quot;Cloud,&quot; and is a more generic term for this class of nymph, who personified the clouds. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond all this attempted puzzle-piece-sorting, Telephassa's pedigree in Fry's *Mythos* seems to me very much like an innovation on his part, and an almost completely arbitrary one at that. **Is there any ancient (or even mediaeval) source that explicitly names Telephassa as a daughter of Nephele (and of the Nile)?**   " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28141" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10225" RevisionGUID="076ac943-3a99-4ee2-828c-669f2690efda" CreationDate="2021-11-13T20:38:15.800" UserId="398" Text="Given its absence in Gantz and Bell, I'm inclined to say that there is no ancient source.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Graves is highly imaginative, and makes these equations and other assumptions without real evidence outside his intuition, which he had in the past admitted to.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Fry is of course a comedian and not a Classicist, so he might have gotten it from somewhere, but not in any ancient source as far as I can tell.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact, it makes no sense at all, considering that Nephele was married to Athamas, who left her for Ino, Cadmus' daughter. That's probably where the story got intertwined with Telephassa, but the only two children of Nephele's were Phrixus and Helle." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28143" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10226" RevisionGUID="cfb3e9cf-9021-47da-a2c6-a20e6dfad2c5" CreationDate="2021-11-13T23:40:18.057" UserId="8753" Text="I really want to know if there is a creature that adopts or take care of children. I tried to find one myself but it almost shows a creature that scares children or eats them which is the opposite of what I want." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28145" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10226" RevisionGUID="cfb3e9cf-9021-47da-a2c6-a20e6dfad2c5" CreationDate="2021-11-13T23:40:18.057" UserId="8753" Text="Creatures that adopt children?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28146" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10226" RevisionGUID="cfb3e9cf-9021-47da-a2c6-a20e6dfad2c5" CreationDate="2021-11-13T23:40:18.057" UserId="8753" Text="|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28147" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10227" RevisionGUID="0cc81663-9d9e-4733-9be3-9b07cb7201b0" CreationDate="2021-11-14T00:32:29.300" UserId="8754" Text="For the purposes of this question, by telekinesis I mean the generalized ability to pick up and move most objects at will, not the ability to move a particular object under specific circumstances (like having a weapon return to one's grip). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Psychokinesis might be the most common power of a &quot;magic&quot; workers in popular culture, but in myth and folklore it seems uncommon. Essentially the earliest descriptions I have been able to find of it come from 1800s mediums, only around 50 years before the word was coined. So I am wondering if the concept of telekinesis as we know it is purely a modern(ish) invention or if there is actually a folkloric or mythological background. I am open to any examples (mystics, monks, wizards, shaman, ect). Thank you!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28149" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10227" RevisionGUID="0cc81663-9d9e-4733-9be3-9b07cb7201b0" CreationDate="2021-11-14T00:32:29.300" UserId="8754" Text="Prior to the 1800s are there any examples of a (preferably mortal) being described as possessing telekinetic abilities in the modern sense?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28150" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10227" RevisionGUID="0cc81663-9d9e-4733-9be3-9b07cb7201b0" CreationDate="2021-11-14T00:32:29.300" UserId="8754" Text="|folklore|origins|magic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28152" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10228" RevisionGUID="495197e6-22ea-4fd0-ae6d-96a954bb4690" CreationDate="2021-11-14T23:52:15.347" UserId="7840" Text="The man is the state of Israel in the 20th century.&#xD;&#xA;The devil who kissed the man and stood behind him is the USA who supports the state of Israel.&#xD;&#xA;He emerged from the left side of the heathen because most of the citizens of Israel migrated to Israel from different nations such as Russia, Easter Europe or western Europe who are nonbelievers in God’s site because they deny the prophecy of Mohammad the messenger of Islam. The people of the right who worshiped him are the Muslim countries who made peace treaties with Israel. The people of the right who insulted him are the majority of the Moslem populations. The people from the right who struck him are such as Hamas and HizbAllah.  The man is the relief given by the heathen to the Jews because the western countries who used to oppress the Jews before the establishment of the state of Israel became the supporters of the Jews after the establishment  of the state of Israel." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28154" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10229" RevisionGUID="b8351219-7e5f-41cf-aeb1-c299dec021bb" CreationDate="2021-11-15T00:47:25.280" UserId="8760" Text="My answer is KHAOS is a hermaphrodite mostly a female after all males can't give birth she is singularity meaning the balance of all things female and male all the way down to the tiniest life form " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28156" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10230" RevisionGUID="2614f7ca-f92f-4d69-a8cb-bd16a3af8082" CreationDate="2021-11-15T07:16:48.440" UserId="5511" Text="There is a tale in the Mahabharata (ca. 400 BCE) about [Shakuni][1] manipulating the outcome of dice throws so that his opponent loses his kingdom and his wife until Krsna intervenes and saves the woman from rape.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's also a so-called technique called &quot;[touchless knockout][2]&quot; in martial arts that is described as being &quot;mastered&quot; in various texts dating long before the 1800s, usually described as &quot;[flowery boxing(花拳)][3]&quot;. A period that sees many of these &quot;schools&quot; claiming such techniques appearing is the late Ming-Early Qing Dynasties (ca. 1640) as a reaction to the rising Manchu influence and ultimate dominion in imperial China. The Manchu had a ruthless, aggressive fighting style, so the &quot;flowery boxing&quot; is regarded as a (not very effective) cultural countermovement.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Martial arts practice during the Qing was generally discussed by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; martial artists using terms specific to the system of practice itself.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The most common way for them to refer to their practice was by name.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; systems such as plum flower boxing (梅花拳), eight trigrams boxing (八卦拳),&#xD;&#xA;&gt; etc. were generally discussed by name without a generic term being&#xD;&#xA;&gt; applied. For those who were attempting to classify martial arts&#xD;&#xA;&gt; practices, a distinction was usually made between the so called&#xD;&#xA;&gt; External School (外家), which were considered to focus on muscular and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; physical strength, and the Internal School (内家), which were defined by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their focus on meditation and strength derived from the manipulation&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of qi (气), or internal life force. This language used primarily by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; martial artists defined their practice by the specific set of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; techniques or skills they studied and grouped them by what those&#xD;&#xA;&gt; practices had in common. - from *[Internal Cultivation or External Strength?: Claiming Martial Arts in the Qing Period][4]*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakuni&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchless_knockout&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.quword.com/search?word=%E8%8A%B1%E6%8B%B3&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://etd.ohiolink.edu/apexprod/rws_etd/send_file/send?accession=osu1557155402412377&amp;disposition=inline" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28158" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10231" RevisionGUID="281793a0-56d8-48f8-9105-faa1993cb93f" CreationDate="2021-11-15T07:33:15.343" UserId="5511" Text="In mythology, there are plenty of examples, the best known are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Romulus and Remus were nursed by the [Capitoline Wolf][1]&#xD;&#xA; - [Enkidu][2], raised by unspecified beasts, becomes the friend of the hero Gilgamesh&#xD;&#xA; - [Atalanta][3] was raised by a she bear after her father abandoned her in a forest&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In real life, we have documented cases:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [Dina Sanichar][4], discovered among wolves in a cave in Sikandra (near Agra) in Uttar Pradesh, India in 1872, at the age of 6.&#xD;&#xA; - [Marcos Rodríguez Pantoja][5] (ca. 1946, Sierra Morena, Spain) lived for 12 years with wolves in the mountains of Southern Spain. He was discovered at age 19&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See here for a [list of documented cases of feral children][6]. Note that the veracity for many in this list is contended.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitoline_Wolf&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enkidu&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atalanta&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dina_Sanichar&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcos_Rodr%C3%ADguez_Pantoja&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_child#Documented_cases_of_feral_children" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28160" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10232" RevisionGUID="324c7530-cf56-466e-85b7-376c1d7a6e07" CreationDate="2021-11-15T12:50:04.967" UserDisplayName="user1637" Text="In her book *Reading Russian Fortunes* (Cambridge University Press, 1998), Faith Wigzell refers (p.33) to a type of fortune-telling card deck that reached Russia in 1850, ascribed to Marie Anne Lenormand (often called Mademoiselle Lenormand). &quot;*These symbolic cards had no numerical values or suits, but divided each picture into four triangles*&quot;. She then refers to a deck of this kind that was published in the United States in 1992 by Svetlana Touchkoff under the name of &quot;Russian Gypsy Fortune-Telling Cards&quot;, which are for sale online. Touchkoff's cards are square, the back of each one is divided into four congruent right-angle triangles, and on each card the triangles are of four different colours. When the cards are &quot;spread&quot;, significance is given when two triangles of the same colour, each on a different card, are juxtaposed. Note that these are not the same as at least most of the &quot;Lenormand&quot; cards available today, which are numbered and oblong, and which often contain smaller images of &quot;standard&quot; cards complete with suits and pips.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What I am interested in is the origin of this particular feature of a deck of fortune-telling cards, namely the use of *square cards divided into four triangles in this way*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28162" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10232" RevisionGUID="324c7530-cf56-466e-85b7-376c1d7a6e07" CreationDate="2021-11-15T12:50:04.967" UserDisplayName="user1637" Text="Origins of fortune-telling cards, known in Russia, each divided into four triangles" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28163" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10232" RevisionGUID="324c7530-cf56-466e-85b7-376c1d7a6e07" CreationDate="2021-11-15T12:50:04.967" UserDisplayName="user1637" Text="|folklore|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28164" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10232" RevisionGUID="88914ead-abed-4d50-9102-da1aba7b45f7" CreationDate="2021-11-15T12:56:38.903" UserDisplayName="user1637" Comment="added 471 characters in body" Text="In her book *Reading Russian Fortunes* (Cambridge University Press, 1998), Faith Wigzell refers (p.33) to a type of fortune-telling card deck that reached Russia in 1850, ascribed to Marie Anne Lenormand (often called Mademoiselle Lenormand). &quot;*These symbolic cards had no numerical values or suits, but divided each picture into four triangles*&quot;. She then refers to a deck of this kind that was published in the United States in 1992 by Svetlana Touchkoff under the name of &quot;Russian Gypsy Fortune-Telling Cards&quot;, which are for sale online. Touchkoff's cards are square, each one is divided into four congruent right-angle triangles, and on each card the triangles are of four different colours. Each of these triangles constitutes half of an image. When the cards are &quot;spread&quot;, significance is given when two triangles, each on a different card, are juxtaposed so as to form a complete image. Note that these are not the same as at least most of the &quot;Lenormand&quot; cards available today, which are numbered and oblong, and which often contain smaller images of &quot;standard&quot; cards complete with suits and pips. Note too that it is not entirely clear whether the division of images on Touchkoff's cards is similar to what it was on the cards that Wigzell describes, because that would depend on what she means by the word &quot;picture&quot;. If one considers that each card contains one &quot;picture&quot;, then it is indeed divided into four, but for the purposes of divination each of the cards contains not a quarter but a half of a picture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What I am interested in is the origin of a very particular feature of a deck of fortune-telling cards, namely the use of *square cards divided into four triangles in this way*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28165" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10232" RevisionGUID="54a8ae03-78bb-4a39-ab63-49b22094e5e6" CreationDate="2021-11-15T13:07:39.990" UserDisplayName="user1637" Comment="added 7 characters in body" Text="In her book *Reading Russian Fortunes* (Cambridge University Press, 1998), Faith Wigzell refers (p.33) to a type of fortune-telling card deck that reached Russia in 1850, ascribed to Marie Anne Lenormand (often called Mademoiselle Lenormand). &quot;*These symbolic cards had no numerical values or suits, but divided each picture into four triangles*&quot;. She then refers to a deck of this kind that was published in the United States in 1992 by Svetlana Touchkoff under the name of &quot;Russian Gypsy Fortune-Telling Cards&quot;, which are for sale online. Touchkoff's cards are square, each one is divided into four congruent right-angle triangles, and on each card the triangles are of four different colours. Each of these triangles constitutes half of an image. When the cards are &quot;spread&quot;, significance is given when two triangles, each on a different card, are juxtaposed so as to form a complete image. Note that these are not the same as at least most of the &quot;Lenormand&quot; cards available today, which are numbered and oblong, and which often contain smaller images of &quot;standard&quot; cards complete with suits and pips. Note too that it is not entirely clear whether the division of images on Touchkoff's cards is similar to what it was on the cards that Wigzell describes, because that would depend on what Wigzell means by the word &quot;picture&quot;. If we consider that each card contains a single &quot;picture&quot;, then it is indeed divided into four, but for the purposes of divination each of the cards contains not a quarter but a half of a picture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What I am interested in is the origin of a very particular feature of a deck of fortune-telling cards, namely the use of *square cards divided into four triangles in this way*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28167" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10232" RevisionGUID="d5689014-fe00-49e7-984d-63dfd7093193" CreationDate="2021-11-15T22:23:33.440" UserDisplayName="user1637" Comment="added 11 characters in body" Text="In her book *Reading Russian Fortunes* (Cambridge University Press, 1998), Faith Wigzell refers (p.33) to a type of fortune-telling card deck that reached Russia in 1850, ascribed to Marie Anne Lenormand (often called Mademoiselle Lenormand). &quot;*These symbolic cards had no numerical values or suits, but divided each picture into four triangles*&quot;. She then refers to a deck of this kind that was published in the United States in 1992 by Svetlana Touchkoff under the name of &quot;Russian Gypsy Fortune-Telling Cards&quot;, which are for sale online. Touchkoff's cards are square, each one is divided into four congruent isosceles right-angled triangles, and on each card the triangles are of four different colours. Each of these triangles constitutes half of an image. When the cards are &quot;spread&quot;, significance is given when two triangles, each on a different card, are juxtaposed so as to form a complete image. Note that these are not the same as at least most of the &quot;Lenormand&quot; cards available today, which are numbered and oblong, and which often contain smaller images of &quot;standard&quot; cards complete with suits and pips. Note too that it is not entirely clear whether the division of images on Touchkoff's cards is similar to what it was on the cards that Wigzell describes, because that would depend on what Wigzell means by the word &quot;picture&quot;. If we consider that each card contains a single &quot;picture&quot;, then it is indeed divided into four, but for the purposes of divination each of the cards contains not a quarter but a half of a picture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What I am interested in is the origin of a very particular feature of a deck of fortune-telling cards, namely the use of *square cards divided into four triangles in this way*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28168" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10232" RevisionGUID="1b881689-5427-4297-a98b-20c4655e6762" CreationDate="2021-11-16T07:53:42.807" UserId="108" Comment="added 10 characters in body; edited title" Text="In her book *Reading Russian Fortunes* (Cambridge University Press, 1998), Faith Wigzell refers (p.33) to a type of fortune-telling card deck that reached Russia in 1850, ascribed to Marie Anne Lenormand (often called Mademoiselle Lenormand).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These symbolic cards had no numerical values or suits, but divided each picture into four triangles&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She then refers to a deck of this kind that was published in the United States in 1992 by Svetlana Touchkoff under the name of &quot;Russian Gypsy Fortune-Telling Cards&quot;, which are for sale online. Touchkoff's cards are square, each one is divided into four congruent isosceles right-angled triangles, and on each card the triangles are of four different colours. Each of these triangles constitutes half of an image. When the cards are &quot;spread&quot;, significance is given when two triangles, each on a different card, are juxtaposed so as to form a complete image.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that these are not the same as at least most of the &quot;Lenormand&quot; cards available today, which are numbered and oblong, and which often contain smaller images of &quot;standard&quot; cards complete with suits and pips. Note too that it is not entirely clear whether the division of images on Touchkoff's cards is similar to what it was on the cards that Wigzell describes, because that would depend on what Wigzell means by the word &quot;picture&quot;. If we consider that each card contains a single &quot;picture&quot;, then it is indeed divided into four, but for the purposes of divination each of the cards contains not a quarter but a half of a picture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What I am interested in is the origin of a very particular feature of a deck of fortune-telling cards, namely the use of *square cards divided into four triangles in this way*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28169" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10232" RevisionGUID="1b881689-5427-4297-a98b-20c4655e6762" CreationDate="2021-11-16T07:53:42.807" UserId="108" Comment="added 10 characters in body; edited title" Text="What is the origin of Russian fortune telling cards that's divided into four triangles?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28170" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10226" RevisionGUID="1c37082b-7c29-49b5-9ad8-b9142805eabc" CreationDate="2021-11-16T07:57:45.563" UserId="108" Comment="edited title" Text="What creatures are there that adopt and take care of children?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28171" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="10226" RevisionGUID="1c37082b-7c29-49b5-9ad8-b9142805eabc" CreationDate="2021-11-16T07:57:45.563" UserId="108" Comment="edited title" Text="|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28172" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="2505" RevisionGUID="2ae3b0c6-fd54-4686-b448-c73dfa0ec32d" CreationDate="2021-11-16T08:44:04.530" UserId="108" Comment="edited title" Text="Is it the Greek primordial deity Chaos male or female?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28173" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10232" RevisionGUID="58aa15e0-5f0c-4338-989e-1af0eb065f2a" CreationDate="2021-11-17T08:41:04.957" UserDisplayName="user1637" Comment="edited title" Text="Origins of fortune-telling cards, known in Russia, each divided into four triangles" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28174" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10232" RevisionGUID="03fa0405-008e-44ea-a5e7-2a664dd3df09" CreationDate="2021-11-17T08:48:15.097" UserId="108" Comment="edited title" Text="What is the origin of fortune-telling cards with pictures divided into four triangles, which was known in Russia in 1850?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28175" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="7669" RevisionGUID="9a1c6b0c-d7c2-4acb-91e4-710dbe13105e" CreationDate="2021-11-17T08:51:51.527" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags; edited title" Text="What is the symbolism of horses in Canaanite sun worship?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28176" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="7669" RevisionGUID="9a1c6b0c-d7c2-4acb-91e4-710dbe13105e" CreationDate="2021-11-17T08:51:51.527" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags; edited title" Text="|symbolism|bible|sun|canaanite|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28181" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10234" RevisionGUID="0b21ac95-c94e-41e2-af27-c4e30fbbb835" CreationDate="2021-11-19T14:49:52.903" UserId="8770" Text="I know achilles was born around 12-1100 BC because he participated in the Trojan War, But I do not know when Achilles was born, or Theseus for that Matter." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28183" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10234" RevisionGUID="0b21ac95-c94e-41e2-af27-c4e30fbbb835" CreationDate="2021-11-19T14:49:52.903" UserId="8770" Text="Which of these Heroes Lived First: Achilles, Hercules or Thesus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28184" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10234" RevisionGUID="0b21ac95-c94e-41e2-af27-c4e30fbbb835" CreationDate="2021-11-19T14:49:52.903" UserId="8770" Text="|hercules|theseus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28185" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10235" RevisionGUID="febfb153-858e-4ddf-84e6-8607e7d4f891" CreationDate="2021-11-19T14:58:04.700" UserId="8770" Text="Chaos is most recognized as a male, though some say it was a female for its ability to produce children. It would make the most sense if he was a man, because chaos doesn't really fit the womanly definition or a feministic definition of a female. It did have the ability to asexually reproduce." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28187" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10232" RevisionGUID="88373c18-92d4-4b87-bdee-6022e47eab9a" CreationDate="2021-11-19T18:12:36.760" UserDisplayName="user1637" Comment="edited title" Text="What is the origin of fortune-telling cards with faces divided into four triangles, which were known in Russia in 1850?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28188" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10234" RevisionGUID="94afebdb-8cb3-45aa-94c7-1621e4b227ce" CreationDate="2021-11-19T19:52:31.330" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected spelling &amp; fixed grammar" Text="I know Achilles was born around 1200-1100 BC because he participated in the Trojan War, but I do not know when Achilles was born, nor Theseus for that matter." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28189" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10234" RevisionGUID="94afebdb-8cb3-45aa-94c7-1621e4b227ce" CreationDate="2021-11-19T19:52:31.330" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected spelling &amp; fixed grammar" Text="Which of these heroes lived first: Achilles, Hercules or Theseus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28192" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10236" RevisionGUID="32339221-84f8-44e7-af51-ea8cbf3a5c0c" CreationDate="2021-11-20T05:43:53.580" UserId="398" Text="Chronologically, it goes Hercules/Heracles, Theseus, and then Achilles in the main mythological accounts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Achilles is last. Hercules older by far because he's the one who placed child Priam on the throne, and Priam was far older than Achilles in the *Iliad*. Achilles was essentially the baby of the Greek kings, likely younger even then Priam's son Hector. So Hercules is far, far older than Achilles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With regards to Theseus, Heracles is still older. Pausanias has this story about them both going to the house of Pittheus. Heracles is a grown man, and Theseus is 7 years old.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [1.27.7] One of the Troezenian legends about Theseus is the following. When Heracles visited Pittheus at Troezen, he laid aside his lion's skin to eat his dinner, and there came in to see him some Troezenian children with Theseus, then about seven years of age. The story goes that when they saw the skin the other children ran away, but Theseus slipped out not much afraid, seized an axe from the servants and straightway attacked the skin in earnest, thinking it to be a lion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [1.27.8] This is the first Troezenian legend about Theseus. The next is that Aegeus placed boots and a sword under a rock as tokens for the child, and then sailed away to Athens; Theseus, when sixteen years old, pushed the rock away and departed, taking what Aegeus had deposited. There is a representation of this legend on the Acropolis, everything in bronze except the rock.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of course, Greek mythology isn't real, so you might find some inconsistencies, but both of these stories are well known enough that it largely anchors these characters in this particular order." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28194" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10236" RevisionGUID="b1f9b95d-fe67-43f0-8406-b77c2d309b4d" CreationDate="2021-11-20T06:07:10.253" UserId="398" Comment="added 245 characters in body" Text="Chronologically, it goes Hercules/Heracles, Theseus, and then Achilles in the main mythological accounts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Achilles is last. Hercules older by far because he's the one who placed child Priam on the throne, and Priam was far older than Achilles in the *Iliad*. Achilles was essentially the baby of the Greek kings, likely younger even then Priam's son Hector. So Hercules is far, far older than Achilles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With regards to Theseus, Heracles is still older. Pausanias has this story about them both going to the house of Pittheus. Heracles is a grown man, and Theseus is 7 years old.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [1.27.7] One of the Troezenian legends about Theseus is the following. When Heracles visited Pittheus at Troezen, he laid aside his lion's skin to eat his dinner, and there came in to see him some Troezenian children with Theseus, then about seven years of age. The story goes that when they saw the skin the other children ran away, but Theseus slipped out not much afraid, seized an axe from the servants and straightway attacked the skin in earnest, thinking it to be a lion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [1.27.8] This is the first Troezenian legend about Theseus. The next is that Aegeus placed boots and a sword under a rock as tokens for the child, and then sailed away to Athens; Theseus, when sixteen years old, pushed the rock away and departed, taking what Aegeus had deposited. There is a representation of this legend on the Acropolis, everything in bronze except the rock.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of course, Greek mythology isn't real, so you might find some inconsistencies, but I think other stories can fit well with the chronology. For example, in Sophocles Oedipus goes to Athens to see King Theseus. Well, Oedipus' kids fought each other in the war of the Epigoni, which was the war right before the Trojan War. If Achilles was a child or even not born yet during the Epigoni, that would also confirm Theseus' seniority over him." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28201" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10234" RevisionGUID="958e2636-c61b-486d-be88-0a13ea6284ae" CreationDate="2021-11-20T13:41:33.377" UserId="398" Comment="edited body" Text="I know Achilles was born around 1200-1100 BC because he participated in the Trojan War, but I do not know when Hercules was born, nor Theseus for that matter." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28205" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10236" RevisionGUID="432439a5-8ddc-48e1-bb50-2353c54bcc8e" CreationDate="2021-11-20T17:14:58.593" UserId="398" Comment="added 34 characters in body" Text="Chronologically, it goes Hercules/Heracles, Theseus, and then Achilles in the main mythological accounts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Achilles is last. Hercules older by far because he's the one who placed child Priam on the throne, and Priam was far older than Achilles in the *Iliad*. Achilles was essentially the baby of the Greek kings, likely younger even then Priam's son Hector. So Hercules is far, far older than Achilles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With regards to Theseus, Heracles is still older. Pausanias has this story about them both going to the house of Pittheus. Heracles is a grown man, and Theseus is 7 years old.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [1.27.7] One of the Troezenian legends about Theseus is the following. When Heracles visited Pittheus at Troezen, he laid aside his lion's skin to eat his dinner, and there came in to see him some Troezenian children with Theseus, then about seven years of age. The story goes that when they saw the skin the other children ran away, but Theseus slipped out not much afraid, seized an axe from the servants and straightway attacked the skin in earnest, thinking it to be a lion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [1.27.8] This is the first Troezenian legend about Theseus. The next is that Aegeus placed boots and a sword under a rock as tokens for the child, and then sailed away to Athens; Theseus, when sixteen years old, pushed the rock away and departed, taking what Aegeus had deposited. There is a representation of this legend on the Acropolis, everything in bronze except the rock.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of course, Greek mythical figures aren't real (as depicted), so you might find some inconsistencies in accounts, but I think other stories can fit well with the chronology. For example, in Sophocles Oedipus goes to Athens to see King Theseus. Well, Oedipus' kids fought each other in the war of the Epigoni, which was the war right before the Trojan War. If Achilles was a child or even not born yet during the Epigoni, that would also confirm Theseus' seniority over him." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28207" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="8037" RevisionGUID="43c3f7a4-d1ec-45cd-8a6a-98b992c21324" CreationDate="2021-11-20T23:41:05.093" UserId="398" Comment="added 191 characters in body" Text="It depends. In high school, I took a Humanities course that covered Graeco-Roman and Norse mythologies. I don't know how common that type of course is, though. You'll also see some mythology covered in literature classes, such as when they cover works that have mythology in them. Finally, foreign language courses will often touch upon cultural aspects of the people who speak the language in question. Latin (and if the school is lucky enough, ancient Greek) for sure would cover mythological aspects. Maybe some teacher of Japanese somewhere covers Japanese mythology, too?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28208" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10239" RevisionGUID="30e67d93-e86c-4282-a6aa-668f7951fc08" CreationDate="2021-11-21T20:00:27.953" UserId="6920" Text="A cross-cultural study of mythology and legend would probably be a literature elective in my experience.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It may appear in history, as part of a study of a particular culture, or in a general literature class to cover things likely to be allusions, but a cross-cultural comparison would be likely a dedicated course.  We had them in my high school -- one semester courses on various literary subjects, like humor, for juniors and seniors." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28210" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="943" RevisionGUID="98149750-98ff-44d9-bba4-283ade7874fc" CreationDate="2021-11-22T10:08:22.100" UserId="2654" Comment="Added tags." Text="|christianity|bible|judaism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28211" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="943" RevisionGUID="98149750-98ff-44d9-bba4-283ade7874fc" CreationDate="2021-11-22T10:08:22.100" Comment="Proposed by 2654 approved by 398, 108 edit id of 1879" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28214" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1107" RevisionGUID="fc783ac6-bf79-4007-b919-82fb612a0f92" CreationDate="2021-11-22T22:14:58.943" UserId="398" Comment="added 35 characters in body" Text="I'm looking into fabulous creatures and demons specifically in Sumerian texts, or in Akkadian texts but where the creature/demon still had a Sumerian origin. I can't seem to find a complete list, if it even exists, and many which are listed in various places on the internet are extremely suspect. What I have so far:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Anzu bird&#xD;&#xA; - Asag&#xD;&#xA; - Bull of Heaven&#xD;&#xA; - Galla (same as Galatura?)&#xD;&#xA; - Humbaba&#xD;&#xA; - Kurgara&#xD;&#xA; - Namtar&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What else is out there from the Sumerian side? Any fabulous creatures at all would be helpful, but I hope to find specifically more demons and monsters." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28215" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10240" RevisionGUID="89d71546-ecd9-4d6e-ada6-4a93a33d8326" CreationDate="2021-11-23T06:57:25.120" UserId="6739" Text="I have been researching Zeus' throne, and have found several sources that say the throne was made of black marble. One source was even more specific, saying it was Egyptian black marble. I am now trying to find out how that would have been written out. The nearest I have been able to decipher was the individual corresponding words: Aigýptios mélās mármaros (Αἰγύπτιος μέλας μάρμαρος) I am not fluent in ancient greek, Hellēnikḗ (Ἑλληνική), so I don't know if this is correct, grammatically, or if there is a more nuanced way to say it. I'e also found the term mávro marmárino (μαύρο μαρμάρινο), but I think that is modern Greek. Any help would be greatly appreciated." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28217" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10240" RevisionGUID="89d71546-ecd9-4d6e-ada6-4a93a33d8326" CreationDate="2021-11-23T06:57:25.120" UserId="6739" Text="How would Ancient Greeks have said &quot;Egyptian black marble&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28218" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10240" RevisionGUID="89d71546-ecd9-4d6e-ada6-4a93a33d8326" CreationDate="2021-11-23T06:57:25.120" UserId="6739" Text="|greek|myth|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28219" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10241" RevisionGUID="98b08183-da6f-48eb-a033-248c36582cd4" CreationDate="2021-11-23T08:49:45.527" UserId="5511" Text="They would probably call this [Alabaster][2], even though strictly speaking this is not marble (but is gleams like black marble).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The name may be derived from ancient Egyptian &quot;a-labaste&quot;, which refers to vessels of the Egyptian goddess Bast, into Greek &quot;ἀλάβαστρος&quot; (&quot;alabastros&quot;) or &quot;ἀλάβαστος&quot; (&quot;alabastos&quot;). The Greek words denoted a vase of alabaster.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://marblestoneegypt.com/egyptian-marble/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alabaster" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28226" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10242" RevisionGUID="2e340ab9-c7f5-44a7-96ed-c8ed6fa0ebca" CreationDate="2021-11-24T08:09:47.530" UserId="108" Text="There does exist a material, used since antiquity, that Renaissance Europeans identified as &quot;Egyptian black marble&quot;. Johann Georg Keyßler wrote of one such work in Rome:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the upper Chambers is . . . a statute of Hercules, when a Boy, tall and plump; by the Colour, indeed, it appears to be Bronze, but properly, **it is a black Egyptian Marble, called by some Selcio, and by others Basaltes**. This Statue was found in the Villa de Meximus on Mount Aventine, and bought by the City of Rome for a thousand Ducats.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;([I believe this is the statue in question, btw](https://mobile.twitter.com/CBPolt/status/1303131573118799873))&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Basaltes&quot; is a medieval transcription error of what the Romans originally called *basanites*, which they adopted from the Greek βασανίτης, which in turn originated from Egyptian *bḫn*. For example, Georgius Agricola wrote in *De Natura Fossilium* that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Some marble is iron-gray, for example, the basaltes from Egypt that is found in Ethiopia&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whereas the ancient Pliny's *Natural History* states:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Egyptians, too, have discovered in Æthiopia the stone known as &quot;basanites;&quot; which in colour and hardness resembles iron, whence the name that has been given to it. A larger block of it has never been known than the one forming the group which has been dedicated by the Emperor Vespasianus Augustus in the Temple of Peace.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as I can determine, this is not actually marble, nor do I have concrete evidence it was considered as marble in Ancient Greece.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But since the question is inspired by a modern work of literary art, I think the balance of probability is that this is the material the original author meant." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28228" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10240" RevisionGUID="aa550924-65a0-43ca-8ceb-7efa69661424" CreationDate="2021-11-24T08:10:33.873" UserId="108" Comment="edited body; edited title" Text="I have been researching Zeus' throne, and have found several sources that say the throne was made of black marble. One source was even more specific, saying it was Egyptian black marble. I am now trying to find out how that would have been written out. The nearest I have been able to decipher was the individual corresponding words: Aigýptios mélās mármaros (Αἰγύπτιος μέλας μάρμαρος) I am not fluent in ancient Greek, Hellēnikḗ (Ἑλληνική), so I don't know if this is correct, grammatically, or if there is a more nuanced way to say it. I'e also found the term mávro marmárino (μαύρο μαρμάρινο), but I think that is modern Greek. Any help would be greatly appreciated." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28229" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10240" RevisionGUID="aa550924-65a0-43ca-8ceb-7efa69661424" CreationDate="2021-11-24T08:10:33.873" UserId="108" Comment="edited body; edited title" Text="How would Ancient Greeks have called &quot;Egyptian black marble&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28230" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10242" RevisionGUID="90a16174-d5f4-4910-a329-98605d52352c" CreationDate="2021-11-24T08:15:30.280" UserId="108" Comment="added 27 characters in body" Text="There does exist a material, used since antiquity, that Renaissance Europeans identified as &quot;Egyptian black marble&quot;. Johann Georg Keyßler wrote of one such work in Rome:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the upper Chambers is . . . a statute of Hercules, when a Boy, tall and plump; by the Colour, indeed, it appears to be Bronze, but properly, **it is a black Egyptian Marble, called by some Selcio, and by others Basaltes**. This Statue was found in the Villa de Meximus on Mount Aventine, and bought by the City of Rome for a thousand Ducats.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;([I believe this is the statue in question, btw](https://mobile.twitter.com/CBPolt/status/1303131573118799873))&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Basaltes&quot; is a medieval transcription error of what the Romans originally called *basanites*, which they adopted from the Greek βασανίτης, which in turn originated from Egyptian *bḫn*. For example, Georgius Agricola wrote in *De Natura Fossilium* that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Some marble is iron-gray, for example, the basaltes from Egypt that is found in Ethiopia&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And Pliny's *Natural History* appears to describe the same material:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Egyptians, too, have discovered in Æthiopia the stone known as &quot;basanites;&quot; which in colour and hardness resembles iron, whence the name that has been given to it. A larger block of it has never been known than the one forming the group which has been dedicated by the Emperor Vespasianus Augustus in the Temple of Peace.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While I don't have a Greek source, there's no doubt the Greeks would have been aware.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Since the question is inspired by a modern work of literary art, I think the balance of probability is that this is the material the original author meant." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28231" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10240" RevisionGUID="3101c0fc-edb9-4da4-9939-132b9ad3e896" CreationDate="2021-11-24T11:10:26.727" UserId="108" Comment="edited title" Text="How would ancient Greeks call the &quot;Egyptian black marble&quot; that Robert Graves say Zeus' throne was made from?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28232" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="10240" RevisionGUID="3101c0fc-edb9-4da4-9939-132b9ad3e896" CreationDate="2021-11-24T11:10:26.727" UserId="108" Comment="edited title" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28233" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10243" RevisionGUID="77462430-c2cd-4f75-a165-8a1d73df56ad" CreationDate="2021-11-24T20:43:51.543" UserId="8780" Text="The [Wikipedia article about Zeus][1] contains these two sentences:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Certain modes of ritual were held in common as well: sacrificing a white animal over a raised altar, for instance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Olympian gods, by contrast, usually received white victims sacrificed upon raised altars.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But there's no reference after neither of them. Does someone know Greek (or maybe Latin) sources for these claims?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28235" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10243" RevisionGUID="77462430-c2cd-4f75-a165-8a1d73df56ad" CreationDate="2021-11-24T20:43:51.543" UserId="8780" Text="Source for claim that white animals were sacrificed to Olympian gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28236" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10243" RevisionGUID="77462430-c2cd-4f75-a165-8a1d73df56ad" CreationDate="2021-11-24T20:43:51.543" UserId="8780" Text="|zeus|olympians|sacrifice|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28240" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10245" RevisionGUID="75224ee8-f15b-4788-9530-578d791c5423" CreationDate="2021-11-25T08:02:20.887" UserId="5511" Text="The &quot;white&quot; probably comes from [Hesiod][3]'s Theogony 557 about Prometheus tricking Zeus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So said Zeus whose wisdom is everlasting, rebuking him. But wily&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Prometheus answered him, smiling softly and not forgetting his cunning&#xD;&#xA;&gt; trick: “Zeus, most glorious and greatest of the eternal gods, take&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which ever of these portions your heart within you bids.” &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So he said, thinking trickery. But Zeus, whose wisdom is everlasting, saw  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; and failed not to perceive the trick, and in his heart he thought&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mischief against mortal men which also was to be fulfilled. With both&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hands he took up the white fat and was angry at heart, and wrath came&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to his spirit when he saw the white ox-bones craftily tricked&#xD;&#xA;&gt; out: **and because of this the tribes of men upon earth burn white bones&#xD;&#xA; to the deathless gods upon fragrant altars.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesiod" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28246" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10247" RevisionGUID="0071619f-e582-428b-89b7-fb203a4a4f17" CreationDate="2021-11-25T11:46:38.043" UserId="7315" Text="Those two sentences are based on the differences that scholars have observed in the ritual practices associated to Olympian and [Chthonic][1] gods, *i.e.* respectively the sky and earth deities. Indeed, there seemed to be a tendency to sacrifice white animals on raised altars to the heavenly gods, and black animals in pits to the subterranean ones. See for example what W. Burkert says about these practices in his book *Greek Religion*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; White cattle or sheep may be sacrificed to the heavenly ones and black&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to the subterranean ones.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Frequent is the antithesis of offering pit or ground level hearth and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; raised stone altar, corresponding to a Chthonic and an Olympian&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sacrifice&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the first sentence, he provides a (non-exhaustive) list of references, including passages from the *Iliad* and the *Odyssey*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Bring ye two lambs, a white ram and a black ewe, for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Earth and Sun, and for Zeus we will bring another  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Hom. *Il.* 3.103][2] &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And do thou earnestly entreat the powerless heads of the dead, vowing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that when thou comest to Ithaca thou wilt sacrifice in thy halls a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; barren heifer, the best thou hast, and wilt fill the altar with rich&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gifts; and that to Teiresias alone thou wilt sacrifice separately a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ram, wholly black, the goodliest of thy flock. But when with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; prayers thou hast made supplication to the glorious tribes of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dead, then sacrifice a ram and a black ewe, turning their heads toward&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Erebus but thyself turning backward, and setting thy face towards the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; streams of the river.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Hom. *Od.* 10.524–7][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As well as a passage from Eusebius' [Praeparatio evangelica][4]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For gods of earth and gods of heaven each three:  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;For heavenly gods pure white; for gods of earth  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;Cattle of kindred hue divide in three  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;And on the altar lay thy sacrifice.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Euseb. *Praep. ev.* 4.9.2][5] &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Explicit mentions of sacrifices of white animals to Zeus are provided by J. W. Hewitt in his paper [*The Propitiation of Zeus*][6], in which he gives some examples. One is a marble board found in the Magnesia region of Greece, of which you can see the ancient greek text in [*Leges Graecorum Sacrae e Titulis Collectae*][7] (p245, N.82) by Prott and Ziehen, who comment (text translated from Latin):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The white color of the sacrifices is best suited to the worship of the god of nature on the top of the mountain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another example given by Hewitt is from Demosthenes, and relates to a sacrifice to Zeus Ktesios:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; To Dionysus pay public sacrifices and mix a bowl of wine and set up&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dances; to Apollo the Averter sacrifice an ox and wear garlands, both&#xD;&#xA;&gt; free men and slaves, and observe one day of rest; to Zeus, the giver&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of wealth, a white bull.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;[Dem. 21, 53][8]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, it should be noted that, as the Wikipedia page you linked says, a subterranean form of Zeus (called Zeus Chthonios, among other names) was worshipped at various times and locations in Ancient Greece, to which black animals were typically sacrificed. For more on this, in addition to the above-mentioned book by Burkert and paper by Hewitt, see for example [*Olympian and Chthonian*][9] by S. Scullion.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chthonic&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D3%3Acard%3D76&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D10%3Acard%3D503&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praeparatio_evangelica&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bw9DD8Hgvs_HNDY0OTExM2UtZWU3Yy00MTg3LTg2NjYtNzZiNWMyMzhhNTIx&amp;hl=en_GB&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.jstor.org/stable/310320&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://archive.org/details/legesgraecorums00ziehgoog/page/n256/mode/2up&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0074%3Aspeech%3D21%3Asection%3D53#note1&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/25011006" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28248" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10248" RevisionGUID="098aad8d-dd55-4f26-ad98-48b38eb69b3b" CreationDate="2021-11-26T07:23:45.043" UserId="8792" Text="In ancient Greece, humans used to swear on the Styx to keep promises. My 8yo had an interesting question today: &quot;Can gods swear on the Styx as well ? They won't ever have to cross it anyway because they are immortal, so why should they care ?&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28250" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10248" RevisionGUID="098aad8d-dd55-4f26-ad98-48b38eb69b3b" CreationDate="2021-11-26T07:23:45.043" UserId="8792" Text="Can gods swear on the Styx" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28251" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10248" RevisionGUID="098aad8d-dd55-4f26-ad98-48b38eb69b3b" CreationDate="2021-11-26T07:23:45.043" UserId="8792" Text="|greek|underworld|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28252" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10249" RevisionGUID="bc205cdd-145d-4b66-be25-aa197346d805" CreationDate="2021-11-26T08:18:48.177" UserId="5511" Text="According to [Hesiod][1], one of the important changes the Olympians made after defeating the Titans was the ability to make oaths. The oath-making and keeping was guarded by the [goddess Styx][2], daughter of Tethys.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for gods taking oaths, Hesiod tells that When gods made oaths or swore to tell the truth, they held their hand over over a cup of Styx’ water. If the deity did not keep his/her promise or lied under oath, then Hesiod tells of the punishment in [Theogony][3]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [775] And there dwells the goddess loathed by the deathless gods,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; terrible Styx, eldest daughter of back-flowing Ocean. She lives&#xD;&#xA;&gt; apart from the gods in her glorious house vaulted over with great&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rocks and propped up to heaven all round with silver pillars. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Rarely does the daughter of Thaumas, swift- footed Iris, come to her with a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; message over the sea's wide back. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **But when strife and quarrel arise among the deathless gods, and when any of them who live in the house of Olympus lies**, then Zeus sends Iris to bring **in a golden jug the great oath of the gods from far away, the famous cold water** which trickles down from a high and beetling rock. Far under the wide-pathed earth a branch of Oceanus flows through the dark night out of the holy stream, **and a tenth part of his water is allotted to her**. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; With nine silver-swirling streams he winds about the earth and the sea's wide back, and then falls into the main; but the tenth flows out from a&#xD;&#xA;rock, a sore trouble to the gods. **For whoever of the deathless gods&#xD;&#xA;that hold the peaks of snowy Olympus pours a libation of her water is&#xD;&#xA;forsworn, lies breathless until a full year is completed, and never&#xD;&#xA;comes near to taste ambrosia and nectar, but lies spiritless and&#xD;&#xA;voiceless on a strewn bed**: **and a heavy trance overshadows him**. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **But when he has spent a long year in his sickness, another penance and an&#xD;&#xA;harder follows after the first. For nine years he is cut off from the&#xD;&#xA;eternal gods and never joins their councils of their feasts, nine full&#xD;&#xA;years.** But in the tenth year he comes again to join the assemblies of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the deathless gods who live in the house of Olympus. Such an oath,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; then, did the gods appoint the eternal and primeval water of Styx to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; be: and it spouts through a rugged place.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesiod&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styx#Goddess&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.theoi.com/Text/HesiodTheogony.html#14" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28254" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10250" RevisionGUID="c7273ee0-a72c-496f-8195-fabc70dc6ee2" CreationDate="2021-11-26T16:55:15.337" UserId="6739" Text="Aphrodite's girdle isn't a &quot;girdle&quot; in the modern sense of a piece of clothing worn around the waist, but an article of clothing known as a strophion (στρόφιον), which is a bra-like garment made of cords or belts, designed to support a woman's breasts, worn either over-top or underneath the cloths. [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1397348] It is called a girdle, simply because it means &quot;to gird&quot; or give support to. It is described as kestón himanta (κεστὸν ἱμάντα) which means &quot;embroidered belt&quot; in the  Iliad, 14.214 [http://www.rwaag.org/kestos] which means that it isn't made from simple cords, but thicker belts. It also seems to be saltire-shaped, or in the form of an x. Aphrodite's &quot;girdle&quot; is actually called the himas (ἱμᾰ́ς) [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ἱμάς]. So, it most likely looked like two embroidered belts of gold, which crossed over one another between Aphrodite's breasts, with a third band that wrapped around her ribcage, just underneath her breasts. There were most likely images of her retinue, the Erōtes, embroidered onto the belts of the himas, which gave it control over the various different types of love (Anteros, Eros, Hermaphroditos Himeros, Hedylogos, Hymenaios, and Pothos)   [[https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/AphroditeTreasures.html#Girdle]]" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28256" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10250" RevisionGUID="e29ac167-964b-44af-b6e0-e636f2f01101" CreationDate="2021-11-26T17:28:05.940" UserId="6739" Comment="added 36 characters in body" Text="Aphrodite's girdle isn't a &quot;girdle&quot; in the modern sense of a piece of clothing worn around the waist, but an article of clothing known as a strophion (στρόφιον), which is a bra-like garment made of cords or belts, designed to support a woman's breasts, worn either over-top or underneath the cloths. [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1397348] It is called a girdle, simply because it means &quot;to gird&quot; or give support to. It is described as kestón himanta poikílon (κεστὸν ἱμάντα ποικίλον) which means &quot;artfully/ornately embroidered belt&quot; in the  Iliad, 14.214 [http://www.rwaag.org/kestos] which means that it isn't made from simple cords, but thicker belts. It also seems to be saltire-shaped, or in the form of an x. Aphrodite's &quot;girdle&quot; is actually called the himas (ἱμᾰ́ς) [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ἱμάς]. So, it most likely looked like two embroidered belts of gold, which crossed over one another between Aphrodite's breasts, with a third band that wrapped around her ribcage, just underneath her breasts. There were most likely images of her retinue, the Erōtes, embroidered onto the belts of the himas, which gave it control over the various different types of love (Anteros, Eros, Hermaphroditos Himeros, Hedylogos, Hymenaios, and Pothos)   [[https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/AphroditeTreasures.html#Girdle]]" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28257" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10250" RevisionGUID="dcec40fc-ac8a-433e-9d84-d8393507be72" CreationDate="2021-11-26T17:49:06.903" UserId="6739" Comment="added 117 characters in body" Text="Aphrodite's girdle isn't a &quot;girdle&quot; in the modern sense of a piece of clothing worn around the waist, but an article of clothing known as a strophion (στρόφιον)[image]&lt;https://www.ancienthistorylists.com/greek-history/top-10-famous-clothes-ancient-greece/#7_Strophion&gt;, which is a bra-like garment made of cords or belts, designed to support a woman's breasts, worn either over-top or underneath the cloths. [definiton]&lt;https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1397348&gt; It is called a girdle, simply because it means &quot;to gird&quot; or give support to. It is described as kestón himanta poikílon (κεστὸν ἱμάντα ποικίλον) which means &quot;artfully/ornately embroidered belt&quot; in the  Iliad, 14.214 &lt;http://www.rwaag.org/kestos&gt; which means that it isn't made from simple cords, but thicker belts. It also seems to be saltire-shaped, or in the form of an x. Aphrodite's &quot;girdle&quot; is actually called the himas (ἱμᾰ́ς) &lt;https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ἱμάς&gt;. So, it most likely looked like two embroidered belts of gold, which crossed over one another between Aphrodite's breasts, with a third band that wrapped around her ribcage, just underneath her breasts. There were most likely images of her retinue, the Erōtes, embroidered onto the belts of the himas, which gave it control over the various different types of love (Anteros, Eros, Hermaphroditos Himeros, Hedylogos, Hymenaios, and Pothos)   &lt;https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/AphroditeTreasures.html#Girdle&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28258" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10250" RevisionGUID="1a18ca44-ee3d-44bf-8163-0423a8efd222" CreationDate="2021-11-26T17:55:05.663" UserId="6739" Comment="added 117 characters in body" Text="Aphrodite's girdle isn't a &quot;girdle&quot; in the modern sense of a piece of clothing worn around the waist, but an article of clothing known as a strophion (στρόφιον)[image]&lt;https://www.ancienthistorylists.com/greek-history/top-10-famous-clothes-ancient-greece/#7_Strophion&gt;, which is a bra-like garment made of cords or belts, designed to support a woman's breasts, worn either over-top or underneath the cloths. [definiton]&lt;https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1397348&gt; It is called a girdle, simply because it means &quot;to gird&quot; or give support to. It is described as kestón himanta poikílon (κεστὸν ἱμάντα ποικίλον) which means &quot;artfully/ornately embroidered belt&quot; in the  Iliad, 14.214 &lt;http://www.rwaag.org/kestos&gt; which means that it isn't made from simple cords, but thicker bands of cloth, or belts. It also seems to be saltire-shaped, or in the form of an x. Aphrodite's &quot;girdle&quot; is actually called the himas (ἱμᾰ́ς) &lt;https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ἱμάς&gt;. So, it most likely looked like two embroidered &quot;belts&quot; of gold, which crossed over one another between Aphrodite's breasts, with a third band that wrapped around her ribcage, just underneath her breasts. There were most likely images of her retinue, the Erōtes, embroidered onto the belts of the himas, which gave it control over the various different types of love (Anteros, Eros, Hermaphroditos Himeros, Hedylogos, Hymenaios, and Pothos)   &lt;https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/AphroditeTreasures.html#Girdle&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28259" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1385" RevisionGUID="075111d8-5e98-413e-a6e7-8ca2455f7657" CreationDate="2021-11-27T00:05:50.487" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="28260" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10250" RevisionGUID="88788b53-05a2-4859-8380-00f25934e67e" CreationDate="2021-11-27T00:22:26.143" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; improved formatting" Text="Aphrodite's girdle isn't a &quot;girdle&quot; in the modern sense of a piece of clothing worn around the waist, but an article of clothing known as a [*strophion*](https://www.ancienthistorylists.com/greek-history/top-10-famous-clothes-ancient-greece/#7_Strophion) (στρόφιον), which is a bra-like garment made of cords or belts, designed to support a woman's breasts, worn either over-top or underneath the cloths. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Ancient Greek Strophion][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;*See WikiData's definition of the word* [*here*](https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1397348).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is called a girdle, simply because it means &quot;to gird&quot; or &quot;to give support to.&quot; It is [described](https://www.rwaag.org/kestos) as *kestón himanta poikílon* (κεστὸν ἱμάντα ποικίλον), which means &quot;artfully/ornately embroidered belt&quot;, in *Iliad* 14.214, which means that it isn't made from simple cords, but thicker bands of cloth, or belts. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It also seems to be saltire-shaped, or in the form of an X. Aphrodite's &quot;girdle&quot; is actually called the [*himas*](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ἱμάς) (ἱμᾰ́ς). So it most likely looked like two embroidered &quot;belts&quot; of gold, which crossed over one another between Aphrodite's breasts, with a third band that wrapped around her ribcage, just underneath her breasts. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There were most likely images of her retinue, the Erōtes, embroidered onto the belts of the *himas*, which gave it control over the various different types of love (Anteros, Eros, Hermaphroditos Himeros, Hedylogos, Hymenaios, and Pothos). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*For more, see the &quot;[Magical Girdle of Aphrodite](https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/AphroditeTreasures.html#Girdle)&quot; chapter of the &quot;Aphrodite Estate&quot; article on Theoi.com*    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/6WZhM.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28261" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10251" RevisionGUID="61dacbbd-4116-4598-bcb2-cbb0ed786509" CreationDate="2021-11-27T16:08:07.867" UserId="7845" Text="One thing that I think is missing here is that there are twelve months in the year. This is not related to any myths. The year is a solar measure, how long it takes the Earth to go around the Sun, while the month is a lunar measure, how long it takes for the Moon to go about its phases. So the number 12 is related to the comensuration of solar and lunar cycles. This explains why there are twelve signs in the zodiac, for example." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28263" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10252" RevisionGUID="16def623-c25c-4056-b5fd-09357d641c26" CreationDate="2021-11-27T16:10:50.067" UserId="7845" Text="I think we can all agree that, despite some attempts, it is nearly impossible to see any bulls, rams, crabs or whatever in the stars. So the constellations were not named for their shapes. To me it makes more sense that they would be names in honour of gods and myths. So I think this question is appropriate to this forum: How were the constellations named?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28265" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10252" RevisionGUID="16def623-c25c-4056-b5fd-09357d641c26" CreationDate="2021-11-27T16:10:50.067" UserId="7845" Text="How were the constellations named?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28266" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10252" RevisionGUID="16def623-c25c-4056-b5fd-09357d641c26" CreationDate="2021-11-27T16:10:50.067" UserId="7845" Text="|zodiac|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28267" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10251" RevisionGUID="9120a2ac-01d6-4a6c-9a69-63a4deb1d740" CreationDate="2021-11-27T17:11:25.883" UserId="7845" Comment="added 18 characters in body" Text="One thing that I think is missing here is that there are twelve months in the year. The year is a solar measure, how long it takes the Earth to go around the Sun, while the month is a lunar measure, how long it takes for the Moon to go about its phases. So the number 12 is related to the comensuration of solar and lunar cycles. This is a fact of nature that precedes any mythology. It explains why there are twelve signs in the zodiac, for example." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28268" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10253" RevisionGUID="1fd6fcfc-80f4-48d2-a0a6-7142d18ab0ce" CreationDate="2021-11-28T00:19:22.140" UserId="8730" Text="according to wiki&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although the Egyptians recognized that the pharaoh was human and subject to human weakness, they simultaneously viewed him as a god, because the divine power of kingship was incarnated in him. He therefore acted as intermediary between Egypt's people and the gods. He was key to upholding Ma'at, both by maintaining justice and harmony in human society and by sustaining the gods with temples and offerings. For these reasons, he oversaw all state religious activity. However, the pharaoh's real-life influence and prestige could differ from his portrayal in official writings and depictions, and beginning in the late New Kingdom his religious importance declined drastically.&#xD;&#xA;**The king was also associated with many specific deities.** He was identified directly with Horus, who represented kingship itself, and he was seen as the son of Ra, who ruled and regulated nature as the pharaoh ruled and regulated society. By the New Kingdom he was also associated with Amun, the supreme force in the cosmos.Upon his death, the king became fully deified. In this state, he was directly identified with Ra, and was also associated with Osiris, god of death and rebirth and the mythological father of Horus. **Many mortuary temples were dedicated to the worship of deceased pharaohs as gods.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;my question: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did any of the ancient writers,writing about Egypt, mention the ancient Egyptians'belief with regard to deifying their kings ?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28270" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10253" RevisionGUID="1fd6fcfc-80f4-48d2-a0a6-7142d18ab0ce" CreationDate="2021-11-28T00:19:22.140" UserId="8730" Text="Is there any source,before the Decipherment of hieroglyphic scripts.that mention that the ancient Egyptians deified their kings?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28271" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10253" RevisionGUID="1fd6fcfc-80f4-48d2-a0a6-7142d18ab0ce" CreationDate="2021-11-28T00:19:22.140" UserId="8730" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28272" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10251" RevisionGUID="2abcd60a-7f44-4b8a-979c-a990e13b256c" CreationDate="2021-11-28T14:10:06.227" UserId="7845" Comment="added 573 characters in body" Text="One thing that I think is missing here is that there are twelve months in the year. The year is a solar measure, how long it takes the Earth to go around the Sun, while the month is a lunar measure, how long it takes for the Moon to go about its phases. So the number 12 is related to the comensuration of solar and lunar cycles. This is a fact of nature that precedes any mythology. It explains why there are twelve signs in the zodiac, for example.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_calendar), in ancient Egypt *the civil year comprised exactly 365 days, divided into 12 months of 30 days each and an intercalary month of five days*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Again according to [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_calendar), in ancient Mesopotamia *the Babylonian calendar was a lunisolar calendar with years consisting of 12 lunar months, each beginning when a new crescent moon was first sighted low on the western horizon at sunset, plus an intercalary month inserted as needed by decree.*" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28273" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10253" RevisionGUID="eafb50a9-bcc1-42a3-a6a2-1c5797b266ac" CreationDate="2021-11-28T14:53:27.023" UserId="7095" Comment="General punctuation edits " Text="According to wiki&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although the Egyptians recognized that the pharaoh was human and subject to human weakness, they simultaneously viewed him as a god, because the divine power of kingship was incarnated in him. He therefore acted as intermediary between Egypt's people and the gods. He was key to upholding Ma'at, both by maintaining justice and harmony in human society and by sustaining the gods with temples and offerings. For these reasons, he oversaw all state religious activity. However, the pharaoh's real-life influence and prestige could differ from his portrayal in official writings and depictions, and beginning in the late New Kingdom his religious importance declined drastically.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The king was also associated with many specific deities.** He was identified directly with Horus, who represented kingship itself, and he was seen as the son of Ra, who ruled and regulated nature as the pharaoh ruled and regulated society. By the New Kingdom he was also associated with Amun, the supreme force in the cosmos.Upon his death, the king became fully deified. In this state, he was directly identified with Ra, and was also associated with Osiris, god of death and rebirth and the mythological father of Horus. **Many mortuary temples were dedicated to the worship of deceased pharaohs as gods.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did any of the ancient writers writing about Egypt, mention the ancient Egyptians' belief with regard to deifying their kings?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28274" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10253" RevisionGUID="eafb50a9-bcc1-42a3-a6a2-1c5797b266ac" CreationDate="2021-11-28T14:53:27.023" UserId="7095" Comment="General punctuation edits " Text="Is there any source before the decipherment of hieroglyphic scripts that mentions that the ancient Egyptians deified their kings?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28275" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="10253" RevisionGUID="eafb50a9-bcc1-42a3-a6a2-1c5797b266ac" CreationDate="2021-11-28T14:53:27.023" Comment="Proposed by 7095 approved by 53, 8730 edit id of 1880" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28276" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10253" RevisionGUID="9335c012-24c5-40d8-9491-4087933f8cc8" CreationDate="2021-11-28T17:22:15.757" UserId="2682" Comment="added link to original quote text, &amp; also block-quote formatting " Text="According to [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_religion#Kingship):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Although the Egyptians recognized that the pharaoh was human and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; subject to human weakness, they simultaneously viewed him as a god,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; because the divine power of kingship was incarnated in him. He&#xD;&#xA;&gt; therefore acted as intermediary between Egypt's people and the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He was key to upholding *Ma'at*, both by maintaining justice and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; harmony in human society and by sustaining the gods with temples and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; offerings. For these reasons, he oversaw all state religious activity.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; However, the pharaoh's real-life influence and prestige could differ&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from his portrayal in official writings and depictions, and beginning&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in the late New Kingdom his religious importance declined drastically.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **The king was also associated with many specific deities.** He was identified directly with Horus, who represented kingship itself, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he was seen as the son of Ra, who ruled and regulated nature as the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; pharaoh ruled and regulated society. By the New Kingdom he was also&#xD;&#xA;&gt; associated with Amun, the supreme force in the cosmos.Upon his death,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the king became fully deified. In this state, he was directly&#xD;&#xA;&gt; identified with Ra, and was also associated with Osiris, god of death&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and rebirth and the mythological father of Horus. **Many mortuary&#xD;&#xA;&gt; temples were dedicated to the worship of deceased pharaohs as gods.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did any of the ancient writers writing about Egypt, mention the ancient Egyptians' belief with regard to deifying their kings?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28277" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10254" RevisionGUID="aac4c34d-d43f-4243-91f4-7e584cc034c8" CreationDate="2021-11-28T17:34:29.763" UserId="5511" Text="Why exclude the hieroglyphic records? For example, the [Mortuary Temple of Hatshepsut][1] includes inscriptions on the daily ritual to honor the deified Hatshepsut and Thutmose III.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, during a considerable period in ancient times, hieroglyphs were not undecipherable. During the Greek occupation known as Ptolemaic period, the Ptolemaic dynasty of Greek origin crowned themselves pharaoh, and we know from the Rosetta stone that Greek, demotic and hieroglyphs were used side by side in this period.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortuary_Temple_of_Hatshepsut" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28279" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10255" RevisionGUID="60f5a8d6-ba48-4617-a378-36c3b8f87994" CreationDate="2021-11-28T17:41:54.280" UserId="5511" Text="You may find this an interesting read: [The Celestial River: Identifying the Ancient Egyptian Constellations][1] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This astronomical study of the night sky in ancient Egypt, using&#xD;&#xA;&gt; modern software, demonstrates that the emblems of the districts of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Upper and Lower Egypt represented ancient constellations that were&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rising, setting, or culminating in sequence. The “emblem&#xD;&#xA;&gt; constellations” indicate that the ancient Egyptians possessed early&#xD;&#xA;&gt; representations of many of the classical constellations known to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greeks, such as Leo, Scorpius, Aquila, Aquarius, Taurus, Orion, Canis&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Major, and Lepus.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The analysis of the emblems of Upper and Lower Egypt enabled a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hypothetical identification of 36 ancient Egyptian constellations.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Furthermore, 28 out of the 38 Egyptian constellations are nearly&#xD;&#xA;&gt; identical matches, both astronomically and iconographically, when&#xD;&#xA;&gt; compared to the Ptolemaic list of 48 classical Greek constellations.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp253_ancient_egyptian_constellations.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28281" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10254" RevisionGUID="5018499d-9f20-466a-9b44-89d1b481db38" CreationDate="2021-11-28T18:25:03.570" UserId="5511" Comment="added 599 characters in body" Text="Why exclude the hieroglyphic records? For example, the [Mortuary Temple of Hatshepsut][1] includes inscriptions on the daily ritual to honor the deified Hatshepsut and Thutmose III.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, during a considerable period in ancient times, hieroglyphs were not undecipherable. During the Greek occupation known as Ptolemaic period, the Ptolemaic dynasty of Greek origin crowned themselves pharaoh, and we know from the Rosetta stone that Greek, demotic and hieroglyphs were used side by side in this period.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Edit: Added some examples and sources by request&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, the full name of Cleopatra is *Cleopatra VII Thea Philopator* (“Cleopatra the Father-Loving Goddess”) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We know from Greek texts that Alexander was worshipped as a god. His body was mummified and placed in a tomb in Alexandria, where it was still visible in the Roman Period. One source states Alexander requested to be referred to and perceived as the son of Zeus Ammon, and thus did not wish to be buried alongside his actual father at Aegae. See [Quintus Curtius Rufus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quintus_Curtius_Rufus).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortuary_Temple_of_Hatshepsut" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28282" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10170" RevisionGUID="d8fbc087-dfd1-4b80-928c-0b638b51d81e" CreationDate="2021-11-29T23:52:04.877" UserId="108" Comment="edited title" Text="What does Aphrodite’s magical girdle look like?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28283" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4786" RevisionGUID="3d00ae7d-4b3d-497b-bc7c-b03c5f3a9f94" CreationDate="2021-11-30T18:10:11.567" UserId="2807" Comment="added 387 characters in body" Text="As I put in comment, this reminded me of Shakespeare's *Titus Andronicus* play.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [Wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus_Andronicus#Sources), under the Sources section, it cites Ovid's *Metamorphoses*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The primary source for the rape and mutilation of Lavinia, as well as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Titus' subsequent revenge, is Ovid's Metamorphoses (c.AD 8), which is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; featured in the play itself when Lavinia uses it to help explain to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Titus and Marcus what happened to her during the attack. In the sixth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; book of Metamorphoses, Ovid tells the story of the rape of Philomela,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; daughter of Pandion I, King of Athens. Despite ill omens, Philomela's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sister, Procne, marries Tereus of Thrace and has a son for him, Itys.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; After five years in Thrace, Procne yearns to see her sister again, so&#xD;&#xA;&gt; she persuades Tereus to travel to Athens and accompany Philomela back&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to Thrace. Tereus does so, but he soon begins to lust after Philomela.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When she refuses his advances, he drags her into a forest and rapes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her. He then cuts out her tongue to prevent her from telling anyone of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the incident and returns to Procne, telling her that Philomela is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dead. However, Philomela weaves a tapestry, in which she names Tereus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as her assailant, and has it sent to Procne. The sisters meet in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; forest and together plot their revenge. They kill Itys and cook his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; body in a pie, which Procne then serves to Tereus. During the meal,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Philomela reveals herself, showing Itys' head to Tereus and telling&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him what they have done.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the answer may be [**Tereus of Thrace**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tereus), son of Ares, except instead of a final battle you get birds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From Wikipedia too:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Tereus desired his wife's sister, Philomela. He forced himself upon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her, then cut her tongue out and held her captive so she could never&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tell anyone. He told his wife that her sister had died. Philomela wove&#xD;&#xA;&gt; letters in a tapestry depicting Tereus's crime and sent it secretly to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Procne. In revenge, Procne killed Itys and served his flesh in a meal&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to his father Tereus. When Tereus learned what she had done, he tried&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to kill the sisters but all three were changed by the Olympian Gods&#xD;&#xA;&gt; into birds: Tereus became a hoopoe; Procne became the nightingale&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whose song is a song of mourning for the loss of her child; Philomela&#xD;&#xA;&gt; became the swallow, which has no song.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And from [Theoi](http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/AresFavour.html):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; TEREUS. A king in Thrake (north of Greece) whose wife and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sister-in-law slew their infant son and fed him to the king. When he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; discovered their crime, they fled to escape, and sympathetic gods&#xD;&#xA;&gt; transformed them into birds - nightingale and swallow. However, Ares&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (most likely), sympathetic to his son, transformed the king into a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hawk, so that he could exact his vengeance for eternity on the two&#xD;&#xA;&gt; women.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;EDIT:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the sake of completeness, there's another mythological king that was served his own son in a banquet: [Clymenus](https://pantheon.org/articles/c/clymenus3.html), a king of Arcadia who committed incest with his daughter [Harpalyce](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harpalyce_(mythology)), and as a revenge she served him up his son(s). Harpalyce was then turned into a bird." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28287" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10256" RevisionGUID="40404e55-fb89-499d-a6c0-2759a2604dac" CreationDate="2021-12-06T18:23:56.580" UserId="8815" Text="I live in Illinois and I know that Bigfoots like pine trees, but would they live here? Like maybe at the forest preserve or the park or somewhere like that?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28289" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10256" RevisionGUID="40404e55-fb89-499d-a6c0-2759a2604dac" CreationDate="2021-12-06T18:23:56.580" UserId="8815" Text="Where do Bigfoots live?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28290" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10256" RevisionGUID="40404e55-fb89-499d-a6c0-2759a2604dac" CreationDate="2021-12-06T18:23:56.580" UserId="8815" Text="|sasquatch|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28291" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10257" RevisionGUID="f615f6fe-4f4d-4a69-979c-fafe704586ed" CreationDate="2021-12-07T17:44:01.163" UserId="8818" Text="The Bigfoot or Sasquatch is a legendary creature that is believed to live in Canada and the United States. The multiplication of testimonies could suggest that it would not be about an individual, but of several hypothetical creatures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;the Bigfoot name was given to it by the first settlers during the conquest of the West, because of its presumed large size and especially the gigantic footprints it would leave after its passage. This humanoid being would mainly occupy the large mountain ranges (Adirondacks, Rockies, and Appalachians) as well as heavily wooded areas sparsely populated by humans (the Everglades).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is a map representing testimony of people seing them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/vUYYg.png&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;sources : wikipedia" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28293" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4799" RevisionGUID="683002b2-46e7-49d4-a1a7-416ba5cc79ec" CreationDate="2021-12-07T21:58:10.113" UserId="3989" Comment="Corrected spelling of Tzetzes" Text="This sounds like [Thyestes][1], brother of Atreus.  (Atreus was the father of Agamemnon and Menelaus.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Atreus now sent a herald to lure Thyestes back to Mycenae with the offer of an amnesty and a half-share in the kingdom; but, as soon as Thyestes accepted this, [Atreus] slaughtered Aglaus, Orchomenus, and Callileon, Thyeste's three sons by one of the Naiads, on the very altar of Zeus where thy had taken refuge; and then sought out and killed the infant Pleisthenes the Second, and Tantalus the Second, his twin.  He hacked them all limb from limb, and set chosen morsels of thier flesh, boiled in a cauldron, before Thyestes, to welcome him on his return.  When Thyestes had eaten heartily, Atreus sent in their bloody heads and feet and hands, laid out on another dish, to show [Thyestes] what was now inside his belly.  Thyestes fell back, vomiting, and laid an ineluctable curse upon the seed of Atreus.&lt;br&gt;&lt;sub&gt;The Greek Myths, citing Tzetzes: [*Chiliades* i.18 ff][2]; Apollodorus: [*Epitome* ii.13][3]; Hyginus: *Fabulae* [88][4], [246][5], and [258][6]; [Scholiast on Horace's *Art of Poetry*][7]; Aeschylus: [*Agamemnon* 1590 ff.][8]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is the origin of the &quot;Curse of the Atreides&quot;. Some family!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyestes&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://archive.org/stream/TzetzesCHILIADES/Chiliades_djvu.txt&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0022%3Atext%3DEpitome%3Abook%3DE%3Achapter%3D2%3Asection%3D13&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://latin.packhum.org/loc/1263/1/0#39&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://latin.packhum.org/loc/1263/1/0#101&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://latin.packhum.org/loc/1263/1/0#105&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_works_of_Horace/Book_upon_the_Art_of_Poetry&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0004%3Acard%3D1577" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28294" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10258" RevisionGUID="83549d7c-2c0e-4c27-a92c-abea3fda3b49" CreationDate="2021-12-08T06:35:58.993" UserId="8814" Text="Sanderson, Stewart F (December 1957). &quot;The Present State of Folklore Studies in Scotland&quot;, may answer your question.  The one thing I believe is universal in the two courts is matriarchal leaders, Banrionacha, or “Queens”. Otherwise. I can only think of fictional literary works referencing any structure of their “courts”, if any exist at all in scholarly works." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28296" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10259" RevisionGUID="0b617e73-e113-4615-b1d7-4b953706773f" CreationDate="2021-12-09T10:19:52.050" UserId="8822" Text="I heard recently that Harbard was actually Odin. The supposition was in his reaction after tricking Thor he displayed the same patterns as Odin. Similarly I heard that Saga is purported to be Frigg in disguise by some experts." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28298" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10259" RevisionGUID="0b617e73-e113-4615-b1d7-4b953706773f" CreationDate="2021-12-09T10:19:52.050" UserId="8822" Text="Are Harbard and Saga actually Odin and Frigg?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28299" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10259" RevisionGUID="0b617e73-e113-4615-b1d7-4b953706773f" CreationDate="2021-12-09T10:19:52.050" UserId="8822" Text="|norse|odin|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28300" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10260" RevisionGUID="ba69ad24-838d-4da0-a68b-8c018cf0cc1f" CreationDate="2021-12-09T15:50:43.090" UserId="7315" Text="The identification of *Harbard* (grey-beard) with *Odin* is a very well-established one among modern scholars. It is based on the fact that both in the Poetic Edda (*Grímnismál* 47) and in the Prose Edda (*Gylfaginning* 20, quoting *Grímnismál*), *Harbard* appears in a list of names of *Odin*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In general, modern translators of the Poetic Edda like Hollander, Larrington and Crawford, unanimously identify *Harbard* as *Odin* in disguise in their introductions to the poem *Hárbarðsljóð*, the only one in which *Harbard* appears as a character.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The situation with *Saga* is a bit less clear, given the scarcity references to this goddess. The only source of information is again *Grímnismál* (stanza 7, Carolyne Larrington translation), where she appears in a list of godly residences:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Sokkvabekk a fourth is called and cool waves  &#xD;&#xA;resound over it;  &#xD;&#xA;there Odin and Saga drink every day,  &#xD;&#xA;joyful, from golden cups  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Saga* is briefly mentioned again together with her dwelling *Sokkvabekk* in *Gylfaginning* (chapter 35), which probably uses *Grímnismál* as a source.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The fact that she is described as drinking with *Odin*, combined with the etymology of *Sokkvabekk* (sunken-bank) which is reminiscent of *Frigg*'s dwelling in *Fensalir* (fen-halls), has led scholars to identify the two goddesses. The most commonly accepted etymology for *Saga*, 'seeress', a role attributed to *Frigg* seems to confirm the identification.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, while one can definitely talk of *Harbard* as '*Odin* in disguise', as evidenced by the fact that in *Hárbarðsljóð* he never reveals his true identity to *Thor*, it is more appropriate to refer to *Saga* as a by-name of *Frigg* (rather than '*Frigg* in disguise'), possibily used by skalds for the purpose of alliteration, on which Norse poetry relied a lot (on this point, see Stephan Grundy's *Freyja and Frigg*)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28302" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10260" RevisionGUID="b1114d34-d763-4220-9da3-10333ae48f7f" CreationDate="2021-12-09T16:08:40.027" UserId="7315" Comment="added 192 characters in body" Text="The identification of *Harbard* (grey-beard) with *Odin* is a very well-established one among modern scholars. It is based on the fact that both in the [Poetic Edda][1] (*Grímnismál* 47) and in the [Prose Edda][2] (*Gylfaginning* 20, quoting *Grímnismál*), *Harbard* appears in a list of names of *Odin*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In general, modern translators of the Poetic Edda like Hollander, Larrington and Crawford, unanimously identify *Harbard* as *Odin* in disguise in their introductions to the poem [*Hárbarðsljóð*][3], the only one in which *Harbard* appears as a character.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The situation with *Saga* is a bit less clear, given the scarcity of references to this goddess. The only source of information is again *Grímnismál* (stanza 7, Carolyne Larrington translation), where she appears in a list of godly residences:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Sokkvabekk a fourth is called and cool waves  &#xD;&#xA;resound over it;  &#xD;&#xA;there Odin and Saga drink every day,  &#xD;&#xA;joyful, from golden cups  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Saga* is briefly mentioned again together with her dwelling *Sokkvabekk* in *Gylfaginning* (chapter 35), which probably uses *Grímnismál* as a source.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The fact that she is described as drinking with *Odin*, combined with the etymology of *Sokkvabekk* (sunken-bank) which is reminiscent of *Frigg*'s dwelling in *Fensalir* (fen-halls), has led scholars to identify the two goddesses. The most commonly accepted etymology for *Saga*, 'seeress', a role attributed to *Frigg* seems to confirm the identification.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, while one can definitely talk of *Harbard* as '*Odin* in disguise', as evidenced by the fact that in *Hárbarðsljóð* he never reveals his true identity to *Thor*, it is more appropriate to refer to *Saga* as a by-name of *Frigg* (rather than '*Frigg* in disguise'), possibily used by skalds for the purpose of alliteration, on which Norse poetry relied a lot (on this point, see Stephan Grundy's *Freyja and Frigg*).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prose_Edda&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A1rbar%C3%B0slj%C3%B3%C3%B0" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28303" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10261" RevisionGUID="61856f68-6ab3-4b42-be16-ff31a22d6bb9" CreationDate="2021-12-09T16:53:01.583" UserId="7140" Text="Mythic authors didn't just use etymology, but used paronomasia, parallel naming employing names that are parallel by meaning, or by visual, or, phonetic structure.&#xD;&#xA;Athena is Grey-eyed because olives are grey. She symbolizes the olive harvest. Athena gave the olive tree to Athens. It is the year's last harvest, associating mature age with wisdom as ancients often did.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28305" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10260" RevisionGUID="3d480d70-d161-4507-b30c-3bc00bf5c4e0" CreationDate="2021-12-09T21:01:55.540" UserId="7315" Comment="added 650 characters in body" Text="The identification of *Harbard* (grey-beard) with *Odin* is a very well-established one among modern scholars. It is based on the fact that both in the [Poetic Edda][1] (*Grímnismál* 47) and in the [Prose Edda][2] (*Gylfaginning* 20, quoting *Grímnismál*), *Harbard* appears in a list of names of *Odin*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In general, modern translators of the Poetic Edda like Hollander, Larrington and Crawford, unanimously identify *Harbard* as *Odin* in disguise in their introductions to the poem [*Hárbarðsljóð*][3], the only one in which *Harbard* appears as a character.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The situation with *Saga* is a bit less clear, given the scarcity of references to this goddess. The only source of information is again *Grímnismál* (stanza 7, Carolyne Larrington translation), where she appears in a list of godly residences:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Sokkvabekk a fourth is called and cool waves  &#xD;&#xA;resound over it;  &#xD;&#xA;there Odin and Saga drink every day,  &#xD;&#xA;joyful, from golden cups  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Saga* is briefly mentioned again together with her dwelling *Sokkvabekk* in *Gylfaginning* (chapter 35), which probably uses *Grímnismál* as a source.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The fact that she is described as drinking with *Odin*, combined with the etymology of *Sokkvabekk* (sunken-bank) which is reminiscent of *Frigg*'s dwelling in *Fensalir* (fen-halls), has led scholars to identify the two goddesses. The most commonly accepted etymology for *Saga*, 'seeress', a role attributed to *Frigg* seems to confirm the identification.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, while one can definitely talk of *Harbard* as '*Odin* in disguise', as evidenced by the fact that in *Hárbarðsljóð* he never reveals his true identity to *Thor*, it is more appropriate to refer to *Saga* as a by-name of *Frigg* (rather than '*Frigg* in disguise'), possibily used by skalds for the purpose of alliteration, on which Norse poetry relied a lot. On this point, Stephan Grundy makes a little comment in *Freyja and Frigg* (appearing in *[The Concept of the Goddess][4]*):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [...] but Sága, who drinks with&#xD;&#xA;Óðinn in Sökkvabekkr, may be a by-form of Frigg used for alliterative purposes&#xD;&#xA;(though Frigg’s own name is used to alliterate with that of her hall, Fensalir,&#xD;&#xA;in *Voluspá*). Hollander suggests that the names of the two halls, Sunken-benches&#xD;&#xA;and Fen-Halls, may be compared, and the verse itself&#xD;&#xA;suggests a close permanent relationship between Sága and Óðinn:&#xD;&#xA;‘Sökkvabekkr hight the fourth… where Óðinn and Sága drink through all&#xD;&#xA;days, glad, out of golden cups’ (*Grímnismál* verse 7).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prose_Edda&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A1rbar%C3%B0slj%C3%B3%C3%B0&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://books.google.pt/books?id=oBiEAgAAQBAJ" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28306" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="9067" RevisionGUID="8c946924-eb0f-434a-b815-69485bbe6608" CreationDate="2021-12-10T09:00:50.087" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="28307" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10262" RevisionGUID="ce2d81c2-1242-4a6d-938e-e31ec684a173" CreationDate="2021-12-11T15:56:18.233" UserId="8829" Text="I'm reading the Loeb Iliad so I have the original Greek text alongside English and am confused when reading verse *Il. 16-543*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; τὸν δ᾽ ὑπὸ Πατρόκλῳ δάμασ᾽ ἔγχεϊ χάλκεος Ἄρης.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ... Him [Sarpedon] has brazen Ares laid low beneath the spear of Patroclus. ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This comes from a speech by Glaucus to Hector as he reproaches him for not defending his allies. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note the English text probably doesn't correspond exactly to that line, I can't read Ancient Greek and the book doesn't align the translations verse-by-verse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, at the beginning of Book 16, Achilles tells Patroclus to don his armour and fight back the Trojans, so that they may fear it is Achilles who attacks them, rather than Patroclus in disguise. Yet at this point, Patroclus' identity has not been revealed (I think), so how can Glaucus know it is Patroclus who killed Sarpedon moments earlier?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28309" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10262" RevisionGUID="ce2d81c2-1242-4a6d-938e-e31ec684a173" CreationDate="2021-12-11T15:56:18.233" UserId="8829" Text="How does Glaucus know Patroclus killed Sarpedon?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28310" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10262" RevisionGUID="ce2d81c2-1242-4a6d-938e-e31ec684a173" CreationDate="2021-12-11T15:56:18.233" UserId="8829" Text="|greek|trojan-war|homer|iliad|achilles|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28311" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10262" RevisionGUID="f06adbe8-1913-4cb7-a92a-18082eedf8bf" CreationDate="2021-12-11T16:01:58.080" UserId="8829" Comment="added 86 characters in body" Text="I'm reading the Loeb Iliad so I have the original Greek text alongside English and am confused when reading verse *Il. 16-543*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; τὸν δ᾽ ὑπὸ Πατρόκλῳ δάμασ᾽ ἔγχεϊ χάλκεος Ἄρης.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ... Him [Sarpedon] has brazen Ares laid low beneath the spear of Patroclus. ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This comes from a speech by Glaucus to Hector as he reproaches him for not defending his allies. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note the English text probably doesn't correspond exactly to that line, I can't read Ancient Greek and the book doesn't align the translations verse-by-verse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, at the beginning of Book 16, Achilles tells Patroclus to don his armour and fight back the Trojans, so that they may fear it is Achilles who attacks them, rather than Patroclus in disguise. Yet at this point, Patroclus' identity has not been revealed (I think), so how can Glaucus know it is Patroclus who killed Sarpedon moments earlier?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My translation is certainly not at fault, because `Πατρόκλῳ` is mentioned by name." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28312" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10263" RevisionGUID="0ce28206-531e-4684-aae9-1368a1428451" CreationDate="2021-12-12T03:38:34.470" UserId="398" Text="The Greek you presented is the right line, and you're right that it's not clear what is going on.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Because the text doesn't actually say, it's anyone's guess why Homer might have had Glaucus name Patroclus. For one, there might have been a missing section that named him first, or maybe they're different traditions, or perhaps it's just Homer &quot;[nodding](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/even_Homer_nods).&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But from the text on its own terms, it isn't so strange that Glaucus knows. Maybe it is that Glaucus is near enough to Sarpedon (since he heard his voice) that he recognizes Patroclus in the armor. Homer here doesn't make that explicit, but it's plausible enough, especially since Glaucus straightaway prays to Apollo and then names Patroclus. It was also the purpose of Sarpedon's duel to find out who he was fighting:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For I myself will meet this man so that I may know who this person is who so prevails. (16.423-424).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps this is Homer's way of drawing the dots but allowing us to connect them." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28314" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10264" RevisionGUID="57bbad32-d46a-4139-aa5f-29a8cd72ffd9" CreationDate="2021-12-12T08:23:51.800" UserId="8822" Text="Jupiter IV, usually referred to as Callisto in modern times, is tidally locked to Jupiter(Zeus). Callisto of mythology attracted the attentions of Zeus (ostensibly because of her physique, according to my Classics professor in the mid-80s and hence the reason for words like calisthenics).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Recently it struck me that one might choose this name for a moon that is &quot;always facing Zeus&quot;. Although I know that Galileo observed the rotation of Jupiter and the Sun, I am wondering if he or Simon Marius, who suggested the names for the Galilean moons, were aware of the locked nature of these lovers or if it is coincidental." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28316" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10264" RevisionGUID="57bbad32-d46a-4139-aa5f-29a8cd72ffd9" CreationDate="2021-12-12T08:23:51.800" UserId="8822" Text="Did Galileo or Marius know that Callisto was tidally locked?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28317" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10264" RevisionGUID="57bbad32-d46a-4139-aa5f-29a8cd72ffd9" CreationDate="2021-12-12T08:23:51.800" UserId="8822" Text="|greek|zeus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28318" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10265" RevisionGUID="a72ddf74-fde4-4079-aeaf-3fefae250b17" CreationDate="2021-12-12T14:15:57.047" UserId="7315" Text="There is no way Galileo or Simon Marius would have been able to observe the tidal locking of any of Jupiter's moons, as they just appeared as faint stars through their telescopes. In fact both Galileo in his *Sidereus Nuncius* and Marius in his *Mundus Iovialis* admit they first mistook the first three Galilean moons for fixed stars, and only later realized they were orbiting Jupiter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even after realizing that they were moving celestial bodies, they both kept referring to them as 'stars' (latin *sidera*), and representing them as asterisks (as customary for stars) in their sketches. See for example these sketches by Galileo:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and Marius's frontispiece from *Mundus Iovialis*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Mundus Iovialis*, Marius proposes the mythological names of Io, Europa, Callisto and Ganymede on account of the first three having been courted by Jupiter, and the last one having been kidnapped by the god. He makes no mention of tidal locking and, actually, in the following page of the book credits Kepler for originally suggesting the names. See Jay M. Pasachoff's article [Simon Marius’s *Mundus Iovialis*: 400th Anniversary in Galileo’s Shadow][3] for more on this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a final comment, the name Callisto comes from the superlative of *kalós* 'beautiful' (related to *kállos* 'beauty') that is, 'most-beautiful', with no direct reference to physique. Words like 'calisthenics' also come from Ancient Greek *kállos* (in this case *kállos* + *sthénos* 'strength'), but independently from Callisto, with whom they just share a common root.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/32VGy.gif&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/SYJcD.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://philpapers.org/rec/PASSMM" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28320" PostHistoryTypeId="52" PostId="10264" RevisionGUID="63875711-36db-42c0-9b45-a19c948122a1" CreationDate="2021-12-12T16:23:55.687" />
  <row Id="28321" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10266" RevisionGUID="bbed48d3-8ea6-4525-87b7-73447a27936b" CreationDate="2021-12-13T03:26:38.233" UserId="5787" Text="I can't find any specifically Welsh stories about a fairy husband with a human wife. Below I've listed the closest relevant motifs that I can think of. (Note I'm only including stories where the Tylwyth Teg resemble human beings in appearance and stature.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Stories where both spouses are fairies. For example, versions of the tale where a human woman is asked to serve as a midwife to a fairy birth. Clearly not what you're looking for, other than there is a married fairy man and a human woman involved.&#xD;&#xA; - Stories where a man is somehow detained in faerie (&quot;fairyland&quot;). Many tales of fairy brides involve the bride needing to be coerced or persuaded to marry a human (and stay in the human world) when that might not be her initial desire. In contrast, stories involving the reverse (a human staying in faerie when they may not necessarily wish to) more often involve men.&#xD;&#xA; - If you go outside Welsh folklore to its sister traditions in Manx or Scotland, you don't get much closer, either. To the previous point, you might add tales of kelpies tricking women to their deaths. Here at least there may be physical attraction involved, but again this doesn't involve marriage, per se.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(As a side note, while not folklore, for completeness' sake I'll mention the Bretton tale of Sir Orfeo since it's so well known. Obviously not Welsh, but being Bretton, it's within the Welsh orbit. The tale essentially blends elements of the Greek myth of Orpheus and Eurydice with fairy folklore. Sadly, this is the closest thing I could think of!)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28324" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="9067" RevisionGUID="052b12f8-2137-493a-bd51-30ef96d4984f" CreationDate="2021-12-13T10:04:52.460" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="|symbolism|native-american|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28325" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10267" RevisionGUID="b32707a8-828e-4c3b-8d50-e20a7f13ba6f" CreationDate="2021-12-13T22:51:03.057" UserId="8590" Text="&gt;Islanders were terrified of the serpent; it was described by Traill Dennison, who transcribed its story, as &quot;the worst of the nine fearful curses that plague mankind&quot; (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoor_worm)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I wanted to know if there is anything else in orcadian folklore that's called one of the nine fearful curses or something similar, and what they are, or if the term was purely a literary invention by Traill Dennison, who was the first recorder of much of their folklore and apparently did romanticise his work a bit, so I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case. I at least haven't found anything else referred to as one of the nine curses in my searching&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sorry if the the title and question is a bit of a mess, I've really been struggling with how to word it for some reason, and thanks for any answers provided!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28327" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10267" RevisionGUID="b32707a8-828e-4c3b-8d50-e20a7f13ba6f" CreationDate="2021-12-13T22:51:03.057" UserId="8590" Text="The 'Stoor Worm' of orcadian folklore is described as one of the nine fearful curses that plague mankind, what are the other curses if there are any?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28328" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10267" RevisionGUID="b32707a8-828e-4c3b-8d50-e20a7f13ba6f" CreationDate="2021-12-13T22:51:03.057" UserId="8590" Text="|norse|mythical-creatures|folklore|british|scottish|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28329" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10268" RevisionGUID="aba333ef-ab6d-4fbd-a4a7-701becdc3fb0" CreationDate="2021-12-14T03:15:54.660" UserId="8831" Text="The being has different names but seems to be worldwide. In the Himalayas it is called Yeti, sometimes it is the abominable snowman but because so far the being has been able to elude capture so sometimes the very existence of this being is questioned. However there is so much of earth that is formidable and unexplored there probably are many life forms we have yet to be able to examine and prove their existence. This being seems intelligent because it has protected its privacy and existence. Illinois is fairly populated so a privacy seeker who likes to live in the wild would prefer to live more in the mountains or deep forest. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28331" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10267" RevisionGUID="01435432-fbaf-4434-ac35-81f84fd702c8" CreationDate="2021-12-14T07:54:13.840" UserId="108" Comment="added 153 characters in body; edited title" Text="The 'Stoor Worm' of Orcadian folklore is described as one of the nine fearful curses that plague mankind, what are the other curses if there are any?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Islanders were terrified of the serpent; it was described by Traill Dennison, who transcribed its story, as &quot;the worst of the nine fearful curses that plague mankind&quot; (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoor_worm)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I wanted to know if there is anything else in Orcadian folklore that's called one of the nine fearful curses or something similar, and what they are, or if the term was purely a literary invention by Traill Dennison, who was the first recorder of much of their folklore and apparently did romanticise his work a bit, so I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case. I at least haven't found anything else referred to as one of the nine curses in my searching&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sorry if the the title and question is a bit of a mess, I've really been struggling with how to word it for some reason, and thanks for any answers provided!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28332" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10267" RevisionGUID="01435432-fbaf-4434-ac35-81f84fd702c8" CreationDate="2021-12-14T07:54:13.840" UserId="108" Comment="added 153 characters in body; edited title" Text="What are the &quot;nine fearful curses that plague mankind&quot; of Orcadian folklore, besides the 'Stoor Worm'?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28333" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10269" RevisionGUID="f66f4ea6-d8a6-438b-9e16-ccc3c0dcab1a" CreationDate="2021-12-14T09:53:01.263" UserId="8822" Text="Most references indicate that Amaterasu decided that Japan needed an emperor and she sent her grandson, Ninigi, to rule; however, they always refer to his grandson (great-grandson), Jimmu, as the first emperor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the early chronicles, he establishes rule over Yamato. So, why is he not considered Emperor?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28335" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10269" RevisionGUID="f66f4ea6-d8a6-438b-9e16-ccc3c0dcab1a" CreationDate="2021-12-14T09:53:01.263" UserId="8822" Text="Why isn't Ninigi considered the first emperor of Japan?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28336" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10269" RevisionGUID="f66f4ea6-d8a6-438b-9e16-ccc3c0dcab1a" CreationDate="2021-12-14T09:53:01.263" UserId="8822" Text="|japanese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28337" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10269" RevisionGUID="c10d0bf6-e01d-4d5c-89b8-195183c5741f" CreationDate="2021-12-14T10:36:08.273" UserId="8822" Comment="added 137 characters in body" Text="Most references indicate that Amaterasu decided that Japan needed an emperor and she sent her grandson, Ninigi, to rule; however, they always refer to his grandson (great-grandson), Jimmu, as the first emperor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;edited: Further research shows that he ruled in an area near Kagoshima and Jimmu established rule in Yamato. Is it merely a matter of Ninigi's location not being the &quot;heart&quot; of Japan that prevents him being called the first emperor?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28338" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10270" RevisionGUID="ed60de96-8112-4dd8-b309-a5b224aad095" CreationDate="2021-12-14T12:10:48.967" UserId="5511" Text="Ninigi No Mikoto in Japanese mythology is said to be the divine origin of the Yamato clan. There are several versions of the myth, in both the [Kojiki][1] and [Nihon Shoki][2]. In the latter there also are several versions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In one version, he is given the task of ruler of Earth after his father [Ame-No-Oshihomimi-No-Mikoto][7] refuses.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In another version, Amaterasu-Ōmikami sends Ninigi to replace the failed rule of [Ōkuninushi][8].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whatever the version, the crux is that Amaterasu gives the job to Ninigi. Ninigi came down from heaven to Mount Takachiho in the land of Himuka and built his palace there. Several of the oldest clan families are mentioned as serving the Yamato (the name of the imperial family) at this point, like the Nakatomi and the Inbe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, at this point, there are still many rivaling clans throughout Japan. This is why Ninigi is not regarded as the first emperor. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;His grandson's conquest of Japan and the establishment of the imperial court is told in the myth of the [Yatagarasu][9]. This great crow was sent from heaven as a guide for legendary Emperor Jimmu on his initial journey from the region which would become Kumano to what would become Yamato, (Yoshino and then Kashihara). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kojiki&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihon_Shoki&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashihara_no_Nakatsukuni&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kusanagi_no_Tsurugi&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yata_no_Kagami&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasakani_no_Magatama&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ame-no-oshihomimi&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%8Ckuninushi&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-legged_crow" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28340" PostHistoryTypeId="52" PostId="10269" RevisionGUID="b8d759d1-b180-43fd-8b53-36b4c18d01b2" CreationDate="2021-12-14T18:00:46.657" />
  <row Id="28341" PostHistoryTypeId="52" PostId="10269" RevisionGUID="86474658-a607-4224-8411-7b3213eac9a7" CreationDate="2021-12-14T18:00:46.657" />
  <row Id="28342" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10271" RevisionGUID="91438587-fbf4-4632-b4ac-c8b76d4ff73c" CreationDate="2021-12-16T17:55:04.533" UserId="197" Text="[The english Wikipedia article about the bird Athene noctua (called little owl in English) claims, without references, that in Greek mythology, the godess Pallas Athēnē was associated with that bird.][w]  But this claim seems odd to me.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are two Athenian coins, [the tetradrachm][tc] and [the dekadrachm][dc] that depict an owl on one side, and the head of Athena on the other side.  Here are three photos of them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![(photo of Athenian tetradrachm, displaying owl)][ti]][t]&#xD;&#xA;[![(photo of another instance of the Athenian tetradrachm, displaying owl)][ui]][u]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![(photo of Athenian dekadrachm, displaying owl)][di]][d]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both of these coins depict the owl with big circular markings around there eyes.  That makes them look to me like it's supposed to depict Strix aluco (called tawny owl in English), whose face looks like that in reality.  (Alternately it could depict Strix uralensis; there are a lot of owl species if you're not an entomologist.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is a pair of Stirx aluco and an Athene noctua for reference.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![(Two taxidermied specimens of Stirx aluco)][si]][s]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![(Photo of Athene noctua)][ai]][a]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So my question is, what bird species was actually associated with Pallas Athēnē in Greek mythology?  I would prefer an answer that applies to before the Roman empire if possible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This question was inspired by [a previous question about Athēnē][o].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![(detail photo of an ancient Greek vase, showing Athēnē holding an owl in her arm, a a bonus)][vi]][v] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[o]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/2728/197&#xD;&#xA;[w]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_owl#In_human_culture&#xD;&#xA;[ti]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/18/Athens_-_500-482_BC_-_silver_tetradrachm_-_head_of_Athena_-_owl_-_T%C3%BCbingen_MUT.jpg/220px-Athens_-_500-482_BC_-_silver_tetradrachm_-_head_of_Athena_-_owl_-_T%C3%BCbingen_MUT.jpg&#xD;&#xA;[t]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Athens_-_500-482_BC_-_silver_tetradrachm_-_head_of_Athena_-_owl_-_T%C3%BCbingen_MUT.jpg&#xD;&#xA;[ui]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/Athens_-_450-400_BC_-_silver_tetradrachm_-_head_of_Athena_-_owl_-_M%C3%BCnchen_AS.jpg/220px-Athens_-_450-400_BC_-_silver_tetradrachm_-_head_of_Athena_-_owl_-_M%C3%BCnchen_AS.jpg&#xD;&#xA;[u]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Athens_-_450-400_BC_-_silver_tetradrachm_-_head_of_Athena_-_owl_-_M%C3%BCnchen_AS.jpg&#xD;&#xA;[tc]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Athenian_tetradrachm&#xD;&#xA;[d]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Athens_-_490-486_BC_-_silver_dekadrachm_-_head_of_Athena_-_owl_-_Berlin_MK_AM_-_02.jpg&#xD;&#xA;[di]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/04/Athens_-_490-486_BC_-_silver_dekadrachm_-_head_of_Athena_-_owl_-_Berlin_MK_AM_-_02.jpg/220px-Athens_-_490-486_BC_-_silver_dekadrachm_-_head_of_Athena_-_owl_-_Berlin_MK_AM_-_02.jpg&#xD;&#xA;[dc]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Athenian_dekadrachm&#xD;&#xA;[v]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Oedipus_Painter_ARV_441_185_Herakles_and_Athena_-_Peleus_subduing_Thetis_(06).jpg&#xD;&#xA;[vi]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/Oedipus_Painter_ARV_441_185_Herakles_and_Athena_-_Peleus_subduing_Thetis_(06).jpg/360px-Oedipus_Painter_ARV_441_185_Herakles_and_Athena_-_Peleus_subduing_Thetis_(06).jpg&#xD;&#xA;[s]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wien-nhm-strix-uralensis.jpg&#xD;&#xA;[si]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/xltRm.jpg&#xD;&#xA;[a]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Athene_noctua_(portrait).jpg&#xD;&#xA;[ai]:  https://i.stack.imgur.com/Mm2Z9.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28344" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10271" RevisionGUID="91438587-fbf4-4632-b4ac-c8b76d4ff73c" CreationDate="2021-12-16T17:55:04.533" UserId="197" Text="What bird species is associated with Pallas Athēnē" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28345" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10271" RevisionGUID="91438587-fbf4-4632-b4ac-c8b76d4ff73c" CreationDate="2021-12-16T17:55:04.533" UserId="197" Text="|greek|symbolism|animals|athena|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28346" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10271" RevisionGUID="8f497810-9329-41aa-810a-29b1cb2bf2a0" CreationDate="2021-12-16T18:18:47.500" UserId="197" Comment="added 9 characters in body" Text="[The english Wikipedia article about the bird Athene noctua (called little owl in English) claims, without references, that in Greek mythology, the godess Pallas Athēnē was associated with that bird.][w]  But this claim seems odd to me.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are two Athenian coins, [the tetradrachm][tc] and [the dekadrachm][dc] that depict an owl on one side, and the helmeted head of Athena on the other side.  Here are three photos of them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![(photo of Athenian tetradrachm, displaying owl)][ti]][t]&#xD;&#xA;[![(photo of another instance of the Athenian tetradrachm, displaying owl)][ui]][u]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![(photo of Athenian dekadrachm, displaying owl)][di]][d]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both of these coins depict the owl with big circular markings around there eyes.  That makes them look to me like it's supposed to depict Strix aluco (called tawny owl in English), whose face looks like that in reality.  (Alternately it could depict Strix uralensis; there are a lot of owl species if you're not an entomologist.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is a pair of Stirx aluco and an Athene noctua for reference.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![(Two taxidermied specimens of Stirx aluco)][si]][s]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![(Photo of Athene noctua)][ai]][a]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So my question is, what bird species was actually associated with Pallas Athēnē in Greek mythology?  I would prefer an answer that applies to before the Roman empire if possible.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This question was inspired by [a previous question about Athēnē][o].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![(detail photo of an ancient Greek vase, showing Athēnē holding an owl in her arm, a a bonus)][vi]][v] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[o]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/2728/197&#xD;&#xA;[w]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_owl#In_human_culture&#xD;&#xA;[ti]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/18/Athens_-_500-482_BC_-_silver_tetradrachm_-_head_of_Athena_-_owl_-_T%C3%BCbingen_MUT.jpg/220px-Athens_-_500-482_BC_-_silver_tetradrachm_-_head_of_Athena_-_owl_-_T%C3%BCbingen_MUT.jpg&#xD;&#xA;[t]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Athens_-_500-482_BC_-_silver_tetradrachm_-_head_of_Athena_-_owl_-_T%C3%BCbingen_MUT.jpg&#xD;&#xA;[ui]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/Athens_-_450-400_BC_-_silver_tetradrachm_-_head_of_Athena_-_owl_-_M%C3%BCnchen_AS.jpg/220px-Athens_-_450-400_BC_-_silver_tetradrachm_-_head_of_Athena_-_owl_-_M%C3%BCnchen_AS.jpg&#xD;&#xA;[u]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Athens_-_450-400_BC_-_silver_tetradrachm_-_head_of_Athena_-_owl_-_M%C3%BCnchen_AS.jpg&#xD;&#xA;[tc]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Athenian_tetradrachm&#xD;&#xA;[d]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Athens_-_490-486_BC_-_silver_dekadrachm_-_head_of_Athena_-_owl_-_Berlin_MK_AM_-_02.jpg&#xD;&#xA;[di]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/04/Athens_-_490-486_BC_-_silver_dekadrachm_-_head_of_Athena_-_owl_-_Berlin_MK_AM_-_02.jpg/220px-Athens_-_490-486_BC_-_silver_dekadrachm_-_head_of_Athena_-_owl_-_Berlin_MK_AM_-_02.jpg&#xD;&#xA;[dc]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Athenian_dekadrachm&#xD;&#xA;[v]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Oedipus_Painter_ARV_441_185_Herakles_and_Athena_-_Peleus_subduing_Thetis_(06).jpg&#xD;&#xA;[vi]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/Oedipus_Painter_ARV_441_185_Herakles_and_Athena_-_Peleus_subduing_Thetis_(06).jpg/360px-Oedipus_Painter_ARV_441_185_Herakles_and_Athena_-_Peleus_subduing_Thetis_(06).jpg&#xD;&#xA;[s]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wien-nhm-strix-uralensis.jpg&#xD;&#xA;[si]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/xltRm.jpg&#xD;&#xA;[a]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Athene_noctua_(portrait).jpg&#xD;&#xA;[ai]:  https://i.stack.imgur.com/Mm2Z9.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28347" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10271" RevisionGUID="3bed0290-7f75-4649-8e4c-8bfd69efd50b" CreationDate="2021-12-16T20:08:45.897" UserId="197" Comment="edited title" Text="What bird species is associated with Pallas Athēnē?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28348" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10272" RevisionGUID="e99c2dc5-0af7-472c-a649-58e2a020b07c" CreationDate="2021-12-17T00:52:29.453" UserId="7315" Text="The animal that is commonly associated with *Athena* is the γλαῦξ (glaux), which is often translated simply as 'owl', but actually referers specifically to the *Athene noctua*. See for example the [γλαῦξ entry][1] in the Liddell &amp; Scott *Greek–English Lexicon*, which also gives several references to authors mentioning the γλαῦξ and its association with *Athena*. Among those, several quotes by Aristophanes, like&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But the strongest proof of all is that *Zeus*, who now reigns, is represented as standing with an eagle on his head as a symbol of his royalty; his daughter has an owl [γλαῦχ᾽], and *Phoebus*, as his servant, has a hawk.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt; Aristophanes *Av.* 516 ([greek][2]/[eng][3])&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Cleon:**  &#xD;&#xA;I have seen *Athena* in a dream, pouring out full vials of riches and health over the people.  &#xD;&#xA;**Sausage-Seller:**  &#xD;&#xA;I too have seen the goddess, descending from the Acropolis with an owl [γλαῦξ] perched upon her helmet; on your head she was pouring out ambrosia, on that of *Cleon* garlic pickle.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Aristophanes *Eq.* 1093 ([greek][4]/[eng][5])&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The certainty that the γλαῦξ was the *Athene noctua* and not another kind of owl comes from the precise descriptions that came to us from many different authors. For references, see  the 'Glaux, Glaukos' entry in *Birds in the Ancient World from A to Z* by W. Geoffrey Arnott:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Little Owl (*Athene noctua*), which was clearly distinguished by Alexander of Myndos (fr. 11 Wellmann) from the similar *Skōps* [the Scops owl] as slightly bigger (21–23 cm ~ 19–20 cm: cf. also Aelian *NA* 15.28) and clearly bulkier, with large yellow eyes and a face dominated by a white fringe (cf. Cyranides 1.3,&#xD;&#xA;3.10) and a frowning expression.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Its familiarity led to many accurate descriptions and comments in ancient authors: a predator (Aristotle *HA* 592b8–9) that fed on mice, lizards, beetles and locusts which it hunted primarily at dusk and around dawn (*HA* 488a25, 619b18–23, Aristophanes *Birds* 589, cf. Longus 4.40, Pliny *HN* 29.92: in fact as a nocturnal hunter it takes a rest between midnight and 2 a.m.)[...]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Page 45 of *A Glossary of Greek Birds*][6] by D'Arcy Wentworth Thompson also gives a comprehensive list of references on the γλαῦξ.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=glau/c&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0025%3Acard%3D499&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:abo:tlg,0019,006:516&amp;lang=original&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:abo:tlg,0019,002:1093&amp;lang=original&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0034%3Acard%3D1060&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://archive.org/details/glossaryofgreekb00thomrich/page/44/mode/2up?view=theater" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28352" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10272" RevisionGUID="1e0ae5f8-f47d-46b5-bd50-d18d4bfaaf06" CreationDate="2021-12-17T10:50:40.047" UserId="7315" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body" Text="The animal that is commonly associated with *Athena* is the γλαῦξ (glaux), which is often translated simply as 'owl', but actually refers specifically to the *Athene noctua*. See for example the [γλαῦξ entry][1] in the Liddell &amp; Scott *Greek–English Lexicon*, which also gives several references to authors mentioning the γλαῦξ and its association with *Athena*. Among those, several quotes by Aristophanes, like&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But the strongest proof of all is that *Zeus*, who now reigns, is represented as standing with an eagle on his head as a symbol of his royalty; his daughter has an owl [γλαῦχ᾽], and *Phoebus*, as his servant, has a hawk.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt; Aristophanes *Av.* 516 ([greek][2]/[eng][3])&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Cleon:**  &#xD;&#xA;I have seen *Athena* in a dream, pouring out full vials of riches and health over the people.  &#xD;&#xA;**Sausage-Seller:**  &#xD;&#xA;I too have seen the goddess, descending from the Acropolis with an owl [γλαῦξ] perched upon her helmet; on your head she was pouring out ambrosia, on that of *Cleon* garlic pickle.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Aristophanes *Eq.* 1093 ([greek][4]/[eng][5])&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The certainty that the γλαῦξ was the *Athene noctua* and not another kind of owl comes from the precise descriptions that came to us from many different authors. For references, see  the 'Glaux, Glaukos' entry in *Birds in the Ancient World from A to Z* by W. Geoffrey Arnott:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Little Owl (*Athene noctua*), which was clearly distinguished by Alexander of Myndos (fr. 11 Wellmann) from the similar *Skōps* [the Scops owl] as slightly bigger (21–23 cm ~ 19–20 cm: cf. also Aelian *NA* 15.28) and clearly bulkier, with large yellow eyes and a face dominated by a white fringe (cf. Cyranides 1.3,&#xD;&#xA;3.10) and a frowning expression.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Its familiarity led to many accurate descriptions and comments in ancient authors: a predator (Aristotle *HA* 592b8–9) that fed on mice, lizards, beetles and locusts which it hunted primarily at dusk and around dawn (*HA* 488a25, 619b18–23, Aristophanes *Birds* 589, cf. Longus 4.40, Pliny *HN* 29.92: in fact as a nocturnal hunter it takes a rest between midnight and 2 a.m.)[...]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Page 45 of *A Glossary of Greek Birds*][6] by D'Arcy Wentworth Thompson also gives a comprehensive list of references on the γλαῦξ.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=glau/c&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0025%3Acard%3D499&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:abo:tlg,0019,006:516&amp;lang=original&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:abo:tlg,0019,002:1093&amp;lang=original&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0034%3Acard%3D1060&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://archive.org/details/glossaryofgreekb00thomrich/page/44/mode/2up?view=theater" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28353" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10274" RevisionGUID="c721a824-4667-41d2-bfac-95ea2962e04a" CreationDate="2021-12-17T19:54:23.577" UserId="8841" Text="How many children did Zeus have that were gods? How many were there? I know that the 9 Muses were fathered by Zeus, as well as some of the Olympians (Apollo, Artemis, Dionysus, Athena, Ares, and Hermes), and Persephone. I want to know all the *minor* gods fathered by Zeus." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28355" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10274" RevisionGUID="c721a824-4667-41d2-bfac-95ea2962e04a" CreationDate="2021-12-17T19:54:23.577" UserId="8841" Text="Who were all the godly children of Zeus and how many were there?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28356" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10274" RevisionGUID="c721a824-4667-41d2-bfac-95ea2962e04a" CreationDate="2021-12-17T19:54:23.577" UserId="8841" Text="|greek|zeus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28357" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10275" RevisionGUID="df7b7d04-24f0-4aca-9c1c-5749114a420c" CreationDate="2021-12-17T20:06:24.090" UserId="8841" Text="The simple answer is: The owl is Athena's sacred animal, so that is the bird associated with her. I am almost positive that the owl is a random owl, because Athena did not chose a singular species. She chose the owl in general. I say Athena, because that is her name. She was called Pallas Athena after the loss of her best friend, Pallas, who she lived with most of her childhood." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28368" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10278" RevisionGUID="69a09abc-d995-4da7-8acb-bf4e778db671" CreationDate="2021-12-21T00:22:59.960" UserId="2682" Text="Going by the most conservatively &quot;mainstream&quot; accounts of the myths, I count at least **fifty-two** divine offspring of Zeus, and if we were to expand that to include all the variant traditions of the genealogy out there, the number increases to at least **107**, and, really, **perhaps up to infinity** in either case.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason for the infinity count is that, according to Homer's *Iliad*, a major source for the mainstream genealogy, the **Litai** [Litae] are daughters of Zeus (see Line 940 of Book 9). The Litai are the personifications of prayers of repentance. Neither Homer, nor Quintus Smyrnaeus, who follows the *Iliad* in naming the Litai as Zeus's offspring (see *The Fall of Troy* 10.300), gives us a number for these spirits, thus leaving us to guess at what that might be. Going by my own conjecture, I imagine that prayers would be innumerable.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the other end of the spectrum from the mainstream, Antoninus Liberalis' *Metamorphoses*, a fairly late source from somewhere between 100 and 300 AD (in contradistinction to Homer, who is considered one of the earliest mythographers, from sometime between 700 and 800 BC), makes a statement to effect that &quot;**the nymphs**&quot; are the daughters of Zeus (see Ch. 22).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Carlos Parada, on his website the Greek Mythology Link (GML), appears to understand Antoninus as referring here to all nymphs *in general*. Meanwhile Theoi.com, on the other hand, has it such that the Metamorphoses are indicating, rather, the nymphs of Mt Othrys in Malis in northern Greece specifically. Either way, their total number remains unmentioned, leaving that component of the matter indeterminate.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We do know of other nymphs occurring by name as Zeus's offspring, including **Britomartis**, the goddess of fishing; **Adrasteia**, who usually, however, is known as one of the nurses of the *infant* Zeus; and **Aigle** [Aegle], who occurs in certain accounts as the mother by Helios of the Kharites [Charites], who are minor goddesses of grace and beauty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Boticelli's Primavera 3 Graces][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Detail of [The Three Graces](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sandro_Botticelli_-_Three_Graces_in_Primavera.jpg) from Sandro Boticelli's* Primavera&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Kharites** themselves, however, in the commonest version of the genealogy, are the daughters of Zeus and of the Oceanid Eurynome. Usually there are **three** of them, named Thaleia, Aglaia and Euphrosyne, but then there are other versions which have more of them or fewer, with different names and functions. Commonly the most mainstream three Kharites make up part of the retinue of the much greater Olympian beauty-goddess **Aphrodite**, who is either Zeus's daughter, or the by-product of the castration of the sky-god Ouranos [Uranus] from the time before Zeus's own birth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the Souda [Suda], the ithyphallic god **Priapos** [Priapus] was a son of Zeus and Aphrodite; and Virgil is cited by the Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology as saying that Aphrodite also bore **Eros**, the mischievous godling of love, to Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The 9 Daughters of Mnemosyne + the 6 [or 9, or 12, or 15] Daughters of Themis**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Theoi.com, the **three** prophetic pebble-nymphs called **the Thriai** [Thriae] in the Homeric Hymn to Hermes &quot;may have been identified with&quot; certain otherwise unnamed nymphs encountered by Herakles [Hercules] by the River Eridanos [Eridanus], and perhaps also by his ancestor Perseus a few generations earlier, and who are said, in Apollodorus' *Library* 2.5.11, to have been daughters of Zeus and Themis. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The three Moirai** [Moerae], the goddesses of fate, and **the three Horai** [Horae], who personified the seasons, are generally also known as daughters of Zeus and Themis. Going by Theoi.com's analysis of the Thriai, Themis would therefore have borne to Zeus three different sets of triplet goddesses. This would then form a sort of parallel to the nonuplet **(nine) Muses** that Themis's sister Mnemosyne bore to Zeus during *her* own marriage to the king of the gods. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Prince Alexander von der Mark Grave 3 Moirai][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Detail of [The Three Moirai](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Schadow_Grabmal_Alexander_2.jpg) from the Tomb of Prince Alexander von der Mark, by Johann Gottfried Schadow*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like the Kharites, in some sources, the Horai also otherwise occur numbering—instead of three—as two, or four, or twelve. But even when they total out to three, rather than their usual names of Eunomia, Dike and Eirene, they might have alternate names.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another set of nymphs from Herakles' adventures, namely **the Hesperides**, are usually said to have been daughters of the Titan Atlas, and similarly to the Horai, they variously occur as a trio, a quartet or a septet. According to Servius' Commentary on Virgil's *Aeneid*, there were **three** of them, named Aigle, Erytheia and Hesperethoosa, and they were daughters of Zeus and Themis, making up yet a *fourth* set of triplets born to this couple.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The virgin Titan goddess **Astraia** [Astraea] is usually the daughter of the Titans Astraios [Astraeus] and Eos, but in Hyginus' *Poetica Astronomica* 2.25, she is yet one more daughter of Zeus and Themis. I am unable to trace the sources I once came across for the interpretations that **Aidos**, the personification of modesty (otherwise named as a daughter of the Titan Prometheus), and **Adikia**, the personification of injustice, were also daughters of Zeus and Themis. If these were counted together they would incidentally make a fifth set of three daughters of the same couple.        &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Selene's 3 Daughters + 6 Abstractions**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The district of Nemea in Argolis was named after the goddess **Nemea**, whom Theoi.com says was a Naiad. Nemea and her sisters **Pandeia** and **Ersa** were daughters of Zeus by the moon-goddess Selene. Pindar's *Nemean Ode* says that **Tykhe** [Tyche], the goddess of fortune, is the daughter of Zeus Eleuthereios, &quot;the Liberator,&quot; while in another place Pindar tells us that **Khrysos** [Chrysus], the personification and god of gold, is a son of Zeus. In Pindar's *Olympian Ode*, **Alatheia**, the personification of truth, is Zeus's daughter, as also is **Nemesis**, the goddess of retribution, in Fragment 8 of the Homeric *Cypria*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Homer's *Iliad*, **Atë**, the personification of blind folly and reckless impulse, was Zeus's eldest daughter. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Zeus Casting Atë Out of Heaven][3]][3]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Zeus Casting His Daughter Atë Out of Heaven* &lt;sup&gt;✭&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pausanias' *Description of Greece* says that **Kairos** [Caerus], the personification and god of opportunity, was the youngest divine offspring of Zeus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Tyrian and Egyptian Deities, and Apotheosised Mortals**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Diodorus Siculus' tells us that **Herakles**, the son of Zeus and Alkmene [Alcmene], was the last and final child borne to the king of the gods by a mortal woman, and he himself, after his death as a mortal man, became a god on Mt Olympos [Olympus], where he officially bore the title Olympios, &quot;Olympian&quot; (*Library of History* 4.15.1). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Héraclès Cour Carrée Louvre][4]][4]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Héraclès, *by Philippe-Laurent Roland*](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Relief_Heracles_cour_Carree_Louvre.jpg), droite *part of the West Façade of the Cour Carrée of the Louvre, Paris*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles' descendant **Alexander the Great**, however, was notoriously claimed, even during his lifetime, to have been the offspring of Zeus rather than the son of King Philip II of Makedonia [Macedon]. When he conquered Egypt he was enthroned as the son of Ammon-Ra. The African god Ammon, who formed part of this combination-deity, was equated by the Greeks with their Zeus. After Alexander's death, his successor as Pharaoh, Ptolemy I, venerated the deceased Makedonian conqueror as a god in a major cult whose institution in Egypt lasted for the next three centuries.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his work *On Animals*, Aelian mentions the Greek notion that the Naiad Io, an ancestress of Herakles and of Alexander, became the Egyptian goddess Aset [Isis], while **Epaphos** [Epaphus], Io's son by Zeus, became the Apis bull, which was a very important god in the same country.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greeks referred to the Phoenician god **Melqart** as Herakles. The Roman writer Cicero identifies this Herakles as a child of Zeus who is different from the Theban son of Alkmene. This Phoenician Herakles, Cicero claims in *De Natura Deorum*, is the son of Zeus by the Titan Asteria.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like Herakles, **the twin Dioskouroi** [Dioscuri], &quot;Zeus's Boys,&quot; named Kastor [Castor] and Polydeukes [Polydeuces], grew up as mortal heroes before joining the gods on Mt Olympos. There are two versions of their parentage, in both of which they are said to have been twins. Either both of them were the sons of Zeus by the mortal queen Leda, or Polydeukes was Zeus's child while Kastor's father was Leda's husband Tyndareus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the same story from the *Cypria* which tells us that Nemesis was Zeus's daughter, the goddess is raped by her own father after they have both taken the form of birds. **Helen**, the most beautiful woman in the world, who later on is the cause of the Trojan War, is the result of the forced union, and she is raised by Queen Leda as the sister of the Dioskouroi. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In most accounts, however, Leda is Helen's biological mother. Either way, Helen, after her mortal lifetime, came to be worshipped on the island of Rhodes as Dendritis, a goddess of trees, as well as in other cults, such as one in Attika [Attica] dedicated both to herself and to her brothers, and in certain locations in their native Lakonia [Laconia], whose queen she had been.     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Children of Hera, Demeter, Kore-Persephone, and Semele**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By his seventh and final wife Hera, Zeus is generally known to have become the father of **Hebe**, the personification of youth; **Eileithyia**, the goddess of childbirth; of the war-god **Ares**; and of the smith-god **Hephaistos**. There are, however, Greek myths making it out that Hephaistos actually had no father, and Roman myths to the effect that Ares and Hebe were not engendered through the power of male seed either. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Ricci Hydria Hebe &amp; Herakles][5]][5]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Detail from [Ricci Hydria](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pittore_del_louvre_E739,_hydria_ricci,_etruria_(artigiani_da_focea),_dalla_banditaccia,_530_ac._ca.,_ercole_all%27olimpo_su_quadriga_con_ebe_1.jpg) showing Hebe bringing Herakles to Olympos from Earth upon his apotheosis*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A number of Greek sources name Hera as Eileithyia's mother without mentioning Zeus, although this need not necessarily mean that her paternity is as dubious a proposition as that of the other children of the queen of the gods. Eileithyia is frequently referred to in plural form, as *the Eileithyiai*, making it such that there were at least *two* such daughters of Hera in addition to the other aforementioned siblings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Iliad*, **Eris**, the goddess of strife and discord, is referred to as &quot;the sister and companion of murderous Ares&quot;, suggesting that she must be a daughter of Zeus and Hera. The war-goddess **Enyo** is either another sister of Ares or merely a form of Eris.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hekate**, the goddess of witchcraft, typically occurs as the daughter of the Titans Perses and Asteria, but there are versions of her parentage in which she is the daughter, rather, of Zeus either by Asteria or by Hera or Demeter. As the daughter of Zeus and Demeter she would be the sister of her fellow Underworld goddess **Persephone**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The wine-god **Dionysos** [Dionysus], in his Orphic incarnation prior to his birth as the son of Zeus by the Kadmeian princess Semele, was a shape-shifting baby god named **Zagreus**, in whose myth he commonly appears as the son of Kore by her own father Zeus. (Kore is the name borne by Persephone before she becomes Queen of the Underworld.) Zagreus is otherwise named as son of Zeus and Demeter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the Orphic Hymn to Melinoe, Persephone bore her own father Zeus a nymph named **Melinoe**, whom Theoi.com defines as &quot;a frightful underworld goddess who presided over propitiations offered to the ghosts of the dead.&quot; According to Wikipedia, she was &quot;represented as a bringer of nightmares and madness.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Olympians, Rivers, and Other Major and Minor Divinities** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Theoi.com identifies **Iasion**, a son of Zeus by the Pleïad Elektra [Electra], as some sort of minor agricultural deity, a &quot;Demi-God of the Samothracian Mysteries&quot;, based, apparently, on his association with Demeter. According to Diodorus Siculus, **Harmonia**, the goddess of harmony, otherwise known as the daughter of Ares and Aphrodite, was the daughter of Zeus and Elektra. Iasion's wife the Phrygian goddess Kybele [Cybele], says Pausanias, was originally born as a double-gendered being called **Agdistis**, after the Phrygian sky-god Dios (identified with Zeus) had impregnated the Earth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the top ranks of the pantheon, you have already made note of **Apollon** [Apollo], **Artemis**, **Athena**, and **Hermes**. The part-goat woodland god **Pan** is usually named as a son of Hermes but in Apollodorus' *Library* 1.4.1 he occurs as a son of Zeus. **Aigipan** [Aegipan], another part-goat deity, closely associated with the great Pan, is usually said to be Zeus's son, although Oppian's *Halieutica* has him as Hermes' offspring. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Hermes &amp; Aigipan - Zeus Rescue][6]][6]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Hermes and Aigipan Rescuing Their Father Zeus from a Dragon* &lt;sup&gt;✭✭&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Palikoi** [Palici] were, as described by Theoi.com, &quot;twin demi-gods (*daimones*) of the geysers and hot-springs of Palakia (Palacae) in Sicily&quot;, and they were the sons either of Zeus or Hephaistos. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Two groups of mysterious minor gods, **the Korybantes** [Corybantes] and **the Idaean Dactyls**, who are often confused or identified with each other, are associated with Kybele and Iasion, and are mentioned as having helped to rear Zeus when he was a baby. Strabo's *Geography* 10.3.19, however, names the Korybantes as the sons of Zeus by his own daughter the Muse Kalliope [Calliope]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He doesn't say how many of them there are supposed to have been, but Nonnus' *Dionysiaca* names **nine** brothers who may or may not be equated with the Korybantes, or the Dactyls or the Kouretes [Curetes]. From the jumble of different traditions concerning the Dactyls, it seems that there may have been three, **five** or nine of them. The number five is attractive in their case because their name means &quot;Fingers,&quot; thus corresponding to the number of digits on a human hand.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, there are **six rivers** who are, in some places, said to have been Zeus' offspring, although the rivers generally are children of the Titan Okeanos [Oceanus]. In Apollodorus' *Library*, **Asopos** [Asopus] is the son of Zeus by Okeanos' daughter Eurynome, which would make him the brother of the three Kharites. The other five are **Lamos** [Lamus]; **Istros** [Ister], known today as the Danube; the Lydian river **Paktolos** [Pactolus]; the Colchian river **Phasis**; and the Trojan river **Skamandros** [Scamander], who is also known as Xanthos [Xanthus].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Further Reading**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm yet to come across a completely comprehensive listing of every last [divine] child of Zeus in one spot, like I've tried to achieve here, but the following come pretty close. My collection of personages in this Answer is in part compiled from these sources. (The lists you'll find among these will include both mortal and divine offspring, not necessarily organised distinctly.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [The Greek Mythology Link article on&#xD;&#xA;   Zeus](https://www.maicar.com/GML/Zeus.html). See the bottom of the&#xD;&#xA;   page, under the heading &quot;Family&quot;.&#xD;&#xA; - [Wikipedia's table lists of Zeus's&#xD;&#xA;   Children](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus#Children)&#xD;&#xA; - Theoi.com's [Zeus Family&#xD;&#xA;   page](https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/ZeusFamily.html) (which does in fact&#xD;&#xA;   list [Zeus's Divine&#xD;&#xA;   Offspring](https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/ZeusFamily.html#Divine)&#xD;&#xA;   separately from his mortal children)&#xD;&#xA; - There is also, in book format, an extremely comprehensive family tree&#xD;&#xA;   of the characters from Greco-Roman mythology, which covers the&#xD;&#xA;   various versions of the deities named in this Answer:  &#xD;&#xA;   *A Genealogical Chart of Greek Mythology, Comprising 3,673 Named Figures of Greek Mythology, All Related to Each Other Within a Single&#xD;&#xA;   Family of 20 Generations*, Compiled by Harold Newman &amp; John O. Newman&#xD;&#xA;   (The University of North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill &amp; London, 2003)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Notes**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;✭ Peter (petrus.agricola). March 28, 2021, &quot;T26 - Zeus, majestically seated on an eagle, clouds beneath feet, banishes his daughter Ate ( discord ) from heaven 4bs – Gnaios,&quot; plaster cast of a gem - Oxford; [Beazley Gem database](https://www.beazley.ox.ac.uk/carc/Home), viewed 20 December 2021, https://www.flickr.com/photos/28433765@N07/51078137382/&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;✭✭ Peter (petrus.agricola). March 28, 2021, &quot;T24 - Hermes &amp; Aegipan sending to sleep the enormous dragon which guards the cave of Corycus &amp; deliver Zeus 4bs – Kromos,&quot; plaster cast of a gem - Oxford; [Beazley Gem database](https://www.beazley.ox.ac.uk/carc/Home), viewed 20 December 2021, https://www.flickr.com/photos/28433765@N07/51078138322/&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/v5fxH.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/sAvl3.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/EnElG.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/EYU2B.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/S3H7D.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Gz8dF.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28370" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10278" RevisionGUID="421d06fd-46c1-4775-a323-947fc6351d8b" CreationDate="2021-12-21T14:31:26.957" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected spelling &amp; fixed grammar" Text="Going by the most conservatively &quot;mainstream&quot; accounts of the myths, I count at least **fifty-two** divine offspring of Zeus, and if we were to expand that to include all the variant traditions of the genealogy out there, the number increases to at least **107**, and, really, **perhaps up to infinity** in either case.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason for the infinity count is that, according to Homer's *Iliad*, a major source for the mainstream genealogy, the **Litai** [Litae] are daughters of Zeus (see Line 940 of Book 9). The Litai are the personifications of prayers of repentance. Neither Homer, nor Quintus Smyrnaeus, who follows the *Iliad* in naming the Litai as Zeus's offspring (see *The Fall of Troy* 10.300), gives us a number for these spirits, thus leaving us to guess at what that might be. Going by my own conjecture, I imagine that prayers would be innumerable.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the other end of the spectrum from the mainstream, Antoninus Liberalis' *Metamorphoses*, a fairly late source from somewhere between 100 and 300 AD (in contradistinction to Homer, who is considered one of the earliest mythographers, from sometime between 700 and 800 BC), makes a statement to effect that &quot;**the nymphs**&quot; are the daughters of Zeus (see Ch. 22).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Carlos Parada, on his website the Greek Mythology Link (GML), appears to understand Antoninus as referring here to all nymphs *in general*. Meanwhile Theoi.com, on the other hand, has it such that the *Metamorphoses* are indicating, rather, the nymphs of Mt Othrys in Malis in northern Greece specifically. Either way, their total number remains unmentioned, leaving that component of the matter indeterminate.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We do know of other nymphs occurring by name as Zeus's offspring, including **Britomartis**, the goddess of fishing; **Adrasteia**, who usually, however, is known as one of the nurses of the *infant* Zeus; and **Aigle** [Aegle], who occurs in certain accounts as the mother by Helios of the Kharites [Charites], who are minor goddesses of grace and beauty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Boticelli's Primavera 3 Graces][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Detail of [The Three Graces](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sandro_Botticelli_-_Three_Graces_in_Primavera.jpg) from Sandro Boticelli's* Primavera&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Kharites** themselves, however, in the commonest version of the genealogy, are the daughters of Zeus and of the Oceanid Eurynome. Usually there are **three** of them, named Thaleia, Aglaia and Euphrosyne, but then there are other versions which have more of them or fewer, with varying names and functions. Commonly the most mainstream three Kharites make up part of the retinue of the much greater Olympian beauty-goddess **Aphrodite**, who is either Zeus's daughter, or the by-product of the castration of the sky-god Ouranos [Uranus] from the time before Zeus's own birth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the Souda [Suda], the ithyphallic god **Priapos** [Priapus] was a son of Zeus and Aphrodite; and Virgil is cited by the Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology as saying that Aphrodite also bore **Eros**, the mischievous godling of love, to Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The 9 Daughters of Mnemosyne + the 6 [or 9, or 12, or 15] Daughters of Themis**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Theoi.com, the **three** prophetic pebble-nymphs called **the Thriai** [Thriae] in the Homeric Hymn to Hermes &quot;may have been identified with&quot; certain otherwise unnamed nymphs encountered by Herakles [Hercules] by the River Eridanos [Eridanus], and perhaps also by his ancestor Perseus a few generations earlier, and who are said, in Apollodorus' *Library* 2.5.11, to have been daughters of Zeus and Themis. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The three Moirai** [Moerae], the goddesses of fate, and **the three Horai** [Horae], who personified the seasons, are generally also known as daughters of Zeus and Themis. Going by Theoi.com's analysis of the Thriai, Themis would therefore have borne to Zeus three different sets of triplet goddesses. This would then form a sort of parallel to the nonuplet **(nine) Muses** that Themis's sister Mnemosyne bore to Zeus during *her* own marriage to the king of the gods. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Prince Alexander von der Mark Grave 3 Moirai][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Detail of [The Three Moirai](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Schadow_Grabmal_Alexander_2.jpg) from the Tomb of Prince Alexander von der Mark, by Johann Gottfried Schadow*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like the Kharites, in some sources, the Horai also otherwise occur numbering—instead of three—as two, or four, or twelve. But even when they total out to three, rather than their usual names of Eunomia, Dike and Eirene, they might be quite different characters, bearing alternate names.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another set of nymphs from Herakles' adventures, namely **the Hesperides**, are usually said to have been daughters of the Titan Atlas, and similarly to the Horai, they variously occur as a trio, a quartet or a septet. According to Servius' Commentary on Virgil's *Aeneid*, there were **three** of them, named Aigle, Erytheia and Hesperethoosa, and they were daughters of Zeus and Themis, making up yet a *fourth* set of triplets born to this couple.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The virgin Titan goddess **Astraia** [Astraea] is usually the daughter of the Titans Astraios [Astraeus] and Eos, but in Hyginus' *Poetica Astronomica* 2.25, she is yet one more daughter of Zeus and Themis. I am unable to trace the sources I once came across for the interpretations that **Aidos**, the personification of modesty (otherwise named as a daughter of the Titan Prometheus), and **Adikia**, the personification of injustice, were also daughters of Zeus and Themis. If these were counted together they would incidentally make a fifth set of three daughters of the same couple.        &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Selene's 3 Daughters + 6 Abstractions**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The district of Nemea in Argolis was named after the goddess **Nemea**, whom Theoi.com says was a Naiad. Nemea and her sisters **Pandeia** and **Ersa** were daughters of Zeus by the moon-goddess Selene. Pindar's *Nemean Ode* says that **Tykhe** [Tyche], the goddess of fortune, is the daughter of Zeus Eleuthereios, &quot;the Liberator,&quot; while in another place Pindar tells us that **Khrysos** [Chrysus], the personification and god of gold, is a son of Zeus. In Pindar's *Olympian Ode*, **Alatheia**, the personification of truth, is Zeus's daughter, as also is **Nemesis**, the goddess of retribution, in Fragment 8 of the Homeric *Cypria*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Homer's *Iliad*, **Atë**, the personification of blind folly and reckless impulse, was Zeus's eldest daughter. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Zeus Casting Atë Out of Heaven][3]][3]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Zeus Casting His Daughter Atë Out of Heaven* &lt;sup&gt;✭&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pausanias' *Description of Greece* says that **Kairos** [Caerus], the personification and god of opportunity, was the youngest divine offspring of Zeus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Tyrian and Egyptian Deities, and Apotheosised Mortals**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Diodorus Siculus tells us that **Herakles**, the son of Zeus and Alkmene [Alcmene], was the last and final child borne to the king of the gods by a mortal woman. After his own death as a mortal, he became a god on Mt Olympos [Olympus], where he officially bore the title Olympios, &quot;Olympian&quot; (*Library of History* 4.15.1). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Héraclès Cour Carrée Louvre][4]][4]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Héraclès, *by Philippe-Laurent Roland*](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Relief_Heracles_cour_Carree_Louvre.jpg), droite *part of the West Façade of the Cour Carrée of the Louvre, Paris*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles' descendant **Alexander the Great**, however, was notoriously claimed, even during his lifetime, to have been the offspring of Zeus rather than the son of King Philip II of Makedonia [Macedon]. When he conquered Egypt he was enthroned as the son of Ammon-Ra. The African god Ammon, who formed part of this combination-deity, was equated by the Greeks with their Zeus. After Alexander's death, his successor as Pharaoh, Ptolemy I, venerated the deceased Makedonian conqueror as a god in a major cult whose institution in Egypt lasted for the next three centuries.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his work *On Animals*, Aelian mentions the Greek notion that the Naiad Io, an ancestress of Herakles and of Alexander, became the Egyptian goddess Aset [Isis], while **Epaphos** [Epaphus], Io's son by Zeus, became the Apis bull, which was a very important god in the same country.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greeks referred to the Phoenician god **Melqart** as Herakles. The Roman writer Cicero identifies this Herakles as a child of Zeus who is different from the Theban son of Alkmene. This Phoenician Herakles, Cicero claims in *De Natura Deorum*, is the son of Zeus by the Titan Asteria.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like Herakles, **the twin Dioskouroi** [Dioscuri], &quot;Zeus's Boys,&quot; named Kastor [Castor] and Polydeukes [Polydeuces], grew up as mortal heroes before joining the gods on Mt Olympos. There are two versions of their parentage, in both of which they are said to have been twins. Either both of them were the sons of Zeus by the mortal queen Leda, or Polydeukes was Zeus's child while Kastor's father was Leda's husband Tyndareus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the same story from the *Cypria* which tells us that Nemesis was Zeus's daughter, the goddess is raped by her own father after each of them has taken the form of a bird. **Helen**, the most beautiful woman in the world, who later on is the cause of the Trojan War, results from this forced union, and she is raised by Queen Leda as the sister of the Dioskouroi. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In most accounts, however, Leda is Helen's biological mother. Either way, Helen, after her mortal lifetime, came to be worshipped on the island of Rhodes as Dendritis, a goddess of trees, as well as in other cults, such as one in Attika [Attica] dedicated both to herself and to her brothers, and in certain locations in their native Lakonia [Laconia], whose queen she had been.     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Children of Hera, Demeter, Kore-Persephone, and Semele**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By his seventh and final wife Hera, Zeus is generally known to have become the father of **Hebe**, the personification of youth; **Eileithyia**, the goddess of childbirth; of the war-god **Ares**; and of the smith-god **Hephaistos**. There are, however, Greek myths making it out that Hephaistos actually had no father, and Roman myths to the effect that Ares and Hebe were not engendered through the power of male seed either. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Ricci Hydria Hebe &amp; Herakles][5]][5]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Detail from [Ricci Hydria](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pittore_del_louvre_E739,_hydria_ricci,_etruria_(artigiani_da_focea),_dalla_banditaccia,_530_ac._ca.,_ercole_all%27olimpo_su_quadriga_con_ebe_1.jpg) showing Hebe bringing Herakles to Olympos from Earth upon his apotheosis*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A number of Greek sources name Hera as Eileithyia's mother without mentioning Zeus, although this need not necessarily mean that her paternity is as dubious a proposition as that of the other children of the queen of the gods. Eileithyia is frequently referred to in plural form, as *the Eileithyiai*, making it such that there were at least *two* such daughters of Hera in addition to the other aforementioned siblings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Iliad*, **Eris**, the goddess of strife and discord, is referred to as &quot;the sister and companion of murderous Ares&quot;, suggesting that she must be a daughter of Zeus and Hera. The war-goddess **Enyo** is either another sister of Ares or merely a form of Eris.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hekate**, the goddess of witchcraft, typically occurs as the daughter of the Titans Perses and Asteria, but there are versions of her parentage in which she is the daughter, rather, of Zeus either by Asteria or by Hera or Demeter. As the daughter of Zeus and Demeter she would be the sister of her fellow Underworld goddess **Persephone**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The wine-god **Dionysos** [Dionysus], in his Orphic incarnation prior to his birth as the son of Zeus by the Kadmeian princess Semele, was a shape-shifting baby god named **Zagreus**, in whose myth he commonly appears as the son of Kore by her own father Zeus. (Kore is the name borne by Persephone before she becomes Queen of the Underworld.) Zagreus is otherwise named as son of Zeus and Demeter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the Orphic Hymn to Melinoe, Persephone bore her own father Zeus a nymph named **Melinoe**, whom Theoi.com defines as &quot;a frightful underworld goddess who presided over propitiations offered to the ghosts of the dead.&quot; According to Wikipedia, she was &quot;represented as a bringer of nightmares and madness.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Olympians, Rivers, and Other Major and Minor Divinities** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Theoi.com identifies **Iasion**, a son of Zeus by the Pleïad Elektra [Electra], as some sort of minor agricultural deity, a &quot;Demi-God of the Samothracian Mysteries&quot;, based, apparently, on his association with Demeter. According to Diodorus Siculus, **Harmonia**, the goddess of harmony, otherwise known as the daughter of Ares and Aphrodite, was the daughter of Zeus and Elektra. Iasion's wife the Phrygian goddess Kybele [Cybele], says Pausanias, was originally born as a double-gendered being called **Agdistis**, after the Phrygian sky-god Dios (identified with Zeus) had impregnated the Earth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the top ranks of the pantheon, you have already made note of **Apollon** [Apollo], **Artemis**, **Athena**, and **Hermes**. The part-goat woodland god **Pan** is usually named as a son of Hermes but in Apollodorus' *Library* 1.4.1 he occurs as a son of Zeus. **Aigipan** [Aegipan], another part-goat deity, closely associated with the great Pan, is usually said to be Zeus's son, although Oppian's *Halieutica* has him as Hermes' offspring. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Hermes &amp; Aigipan - Zeus Rescue][6]][6]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Hermes and Aigipan Rescuing Their Father Zeus from a Dragon* &lt;sup&gt;✭✭&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Palikoi** [Palici] were, as described by Theoi.com, &quot;twin demi-gods (*daimones*) of the geysers and hot-springs of Palakia (Palacae) in Sicily&quot;, and they were the sons either of Zeus or Hephaistos. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Two groups of mysterious minor gods, **the Korybantes** [Corybantes] and **the Idaean Dactyls**, who are often confused or identified with each other, are associated with Kybele and Iasion, and are mentioned as having helped to rear Zeus when he was a baby. Strabo's *Geography* 10.3.19, however, names the Korybantes as the sons of Zeus by his own daughter the Muse Kalliope [Calliope]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He doesn't say how many of them there are supposed to have been, but Nonnus' *Dionysiaca* names **nine** brothers who may or may not be equated with the Korybantes, or the Dactyls or the Kouretes [Curetes]. From the jumble of different traditions concerning the Dactyls, it seems that there may have been three, **five** or nine of them. The number five is attractive in their case because their name means &quot;Fingers,&quot; thus corresponding to the digits on one human hand.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, there are **six rivers** said, in some places, to have been Zeus' offspring, although the rivers generally are children of the Titan Okeanos [Oceanus]. In Apollodorus' *Library*, **Asopos** [Asopus] is the son of Zeus by Okeanos' daughter Eurynome, which would make him the brother of the three Kharites. The other five are **Lamos** [Lamus]; **Istros** [Ister], known today as the Danube; the Lydian river **Paktolos** [Pactolus]; the Colchian river **Phasis**; and the Trojan river **Skamandros** [Scamander], who is also known as Xanthos [Xanthus].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Further Reading**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm yet to come across a completely comprehensive listing of every last one of Zeus's [divine] children in one spot, like I've tried to achieve here, but the following come pretty close. My collection of personages in this Answer is in part compiled from these sources. (The lists you'll find among these will include both mortal and divine offspring, not necessarily organised distinctly.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [The Greek Mythology Link article on&#xD;&#xA;   Zeus](https://www.maicar.com/GML/Zeus.html) (see the bottom of the&#xD;&#xA;   page, under the heading &quot;Family&quot;)&#xD;&#xA; - [Wikipedia's table lists of Zeus's&#xD;&#xA;   Children](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus#Children)&#xD;&#xA; - Theoi.com's [Zeus Family&#xD;&#xA;   page](https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/ZeusFamily.html) (which does in fact&#xD;&#xA;   list [Zeus's Divine&#xD;&#xA;   Offspring](https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/ZeusFamily.html#Divine)&#xD;&#xA;   separately from his mortal children)&#xD;&#xA; - There is also, in book format, an extremely comprehensive family tree&#xD;&#xA;   of the characters from Greco-Roman mythology, which covers the&#xD;&#xA;   various versions of the deities named in this Answer:  &#xD;&#xA;   *A Genealogical Chart of Greek Mythology, Comprising 3,673 Named Figures of Greek Mythology, All Related to Each Other Within a Single&#xD;&#xA;   Family of 20 Generations*, Compiled by Harold Newman &amp; Jon O. Newman&#xD;&#xA;   (The University of North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill &amp; London, 2003)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Notes**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;✭ Peter (petrus.agricola). March 28, 2021, &quot;T26 - Zeus, majestically seated on an eagle, clouds beneath feet, banishes his daughter Ate ( discord ) from heaven 4bs – Gnaios,&quot; plaster cast of a gem - Oxford; [Beazley Gem database](https://www.beazley.ox.ac.uk/carc/Home), viewed 20 December 2021, https://www.flickr.com/photos/28433765@N07/51078137382/&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;✭✭ Peter (petrus.agricola). March 28, 2021, &quot;T24 - Hermes &amp; Aegipan sending to sleep the enormous dragon which guards the cave of Corycus &amp; deliver Zeus 4bs – Kromos,&quot; plaster cast of a gem - Oxford; [Beazley Gem database](https://www.beazley.ox.ac.uk/carc/Home), viewed 20 December 2021, https://www.flickr.com/photos/28433765@N07/51078138322/&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/v5fxH.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/sAvl3.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/EnElG.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/EYU2B.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/S3H7D.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Gz8dF.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28372" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10278" RevisionGUID="c7525099-7383-4fb2-b960-3b2251a43b3a" CreationDate="2021-12-22T07:43:35.757" UserId="2682" Comment="tweaked some details" Text="Going by the most conservatively &quot;mainstream&quot; accounts of the myths, I count at least **fifty-two** divine offspring of Zeus, and if we were to expand that to include all the variant traditions of the genealogy out there, the number increases to at least **107**, and, really, **perhaps up to infinity** in either case.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason for the infinity count is that, according to Homer's *Iliad*, a major source for the mainstream genealogy, the **Litai** [Litae] are daughters of Zeus (see Line 940 of Book 9). The Litai are the personifications of prayers of repentance. Neither Homer, nor Quintus Smyrnaeus, who follows the *Iliad* in naming the Litai as Zeus's offspring (see *The Fall of Troy* 10.300), gives us a number for these spirits, thus leaving us to guess at what that might be. Going by my own conjecture, I imagine that prayers would be innumerable.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the other end of the spectrum from the mainstream, Antoninus Liberalis' *Metamorphoses*, a fairly late source from somewhere between 100 and 300 AD (in contradistinction to Homer, who is considered one of the earliest mythographers, from sometime between 800 and 700 BC), makes a statement to effect that &quot;**the nymphs**&quot; are the daughters of Zeus (see Ch. 22).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Carlos Parada, on his website the Greek Mythology Link, appears to understand Antoninus as referring here to all nymphs in general. Meanwhile Theoi.com, on the other hand, has it such that the *Metamorphoses* are indicating, rather, the nymphs of Mt Othrys in Malis in northern Greece specifically. Either way, their total number remains unmentioned, leaving that component of the matter indeterminate.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We do know of other nymphs occurring by name as Zeus's offspring, including **Britomartis**, the goddess of fishing; **Adrasteia**, who usually, however, is known as one of the nurses of the *infant* Zeus; and **Aigle** [Aegle], who occurs in certain accounts as the mother by Helios of the Kharites [Charites], who are minor goddesses of grace and beauty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Boticelli's Primavera 3 Graces][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Detail of [The Three Graces](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sandro_Botticelli_-_Three_Graces_in_Primavera.jpg) from Sandro Boticelli's* Primavera&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Kharites** themselves, however, in the commonest version of the genealogy, are the daughters of Zeus and of the Oceanid Eurynome. Usually there are **three** of them, named Thaleia, Aglaia and Euphrosyne, but then there are other versions which have more of them or fewer, with varying names and functions. Commonly the most mainstream three Kharites make up part of the retinue of the much greater Olympian beauty-goddess **Aphrodite**, who is either Zeus's daughter, or the by-product of the castration of the sky-god Ouranos [Uranus] from the time before Zeus's own birth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the Souda [Suda], the ithyphallic god **Priapos** [Priapus] was a son of Zeus and Aphrodite; and Virgil is cited by the Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology as saying that Aphrodite also bore **Eros**, the mischievous godling of love, to Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The 9 Daughters of Mnemosyne + the 6 [or 9, or 12, or 15] Daughters of Themis**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Theoi.com, the **three** prophetic pebble-nymphs called **the Thriai** [Thriae] in the Homeric Hymn to Hermes &quot;may have been identified with&quot; certain otherwise unnamed nymphs encountered by Herakles [Hercules] at the River Eridanos [Eridanus], and perhaps also by his ancestor Perseus a few generations earlier, and who are said, in Apollodorus' *Library* 2.5.11, to have been daughters of Zeus and Themis. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The three Moirai** [Moerae], the goddesses of fate, and **the three Horai** [Horae], who personified the seasons, are generally also known as daughters of Zeus and Themis. Going by Theoi.com's analysis of the Thriai, Themis would therefore have borne to Zeus three different sets of triplet goddesses. This would then form a sort of parallel to the nonuplet **(nine) Muses** that Themis's sister Mnemosyne bore to Zeus during *her* own marriage to the king of the gods. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Prince Alexander von der Mark Grave 3 Moirai][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Detail of [The Three Moirai](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Schadow_Grabmal_Alexander_2.jpg) from the Tomb of Prince Alexander von der Mark, by Johann Gottfried Schadow*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like the Kharites, in some sources, the Horai also otherwise occur numbering—instead of three—as two, or four, or twelve. But even when they total out to three, rather than their usual names of Eunomia, Dike and Eirene, they might be quite different characters, bearing alternate names.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another set of nymphs from Herakles' adventures, namely **the Hesperides**, are usually said to have been daughters of the Titan Atlas, and similarly to the Horai, they variously occur as a trio, a quartet or a septet. According to Servius' Commentary on Virgil's *Aeneid*, there were **three** of them, named Aigle, Erytheia and Hesperethoosa, and they were daughters of Zeus and Themis, making up yet a *fourth* set of triplets born to this couple.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The virgin Titan goddess **Astraia** [Astraea] is usually the daughter of the Titans Astraios [Astraeus] and Eos, but in Hyginus' *Poetica Astronomica* 2.25, she is yet one more daughter of Zeus and Themis. I am unable to trace the sources I once came across for the interpretations that **Aidos**, the personification of modesty (otherwise named as a daughter of the Titan Prometheus), and **Adikia**, the personification of injustice, were also daughters of Zeus and Themis. If these were counted together they would incidentally make a fifth set of three daughters of the same couple.        &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Selene's 3 Daughters + 6 Abstractions**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The district of Nemea in Argolis was named after the goddess **Nemea**, whom Theoi.com says was a Naiad. Nemea and her sisters **Pandeia** and **Ersa** were daughters of Zeus by the moon-goddess Selene. Pindar's *Nemean Ode* says that **Tykhe** [Tyche], the goddess of fortune, is the daughter of Zeus Eleuthereios, &quot;the Liberator,&quot; while in another place Pindar tells us that **Khrysos** [Chrysus], the personification and god of gold, is a son of Zeus. In Pindar's *Olympian Ode*, **Alatheia**, the personification of truth, is Zeus's daughter, as also is **Nemesis**, the goddess of retribution, in Fragment 8 of the Homeric *Cypria*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Homer's *Iliad*, **Atë**, the personification of blind folly and reckless impulse, was Zeus's eldest daughter. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Zeus Casting Atë Out of Heaven][3]][3]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Zeus Casting His Daughter Atë Out of Heaven* &lt;sup&gt;✭&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pausanias' *Description of Greece* says that **Kairos** [Caerus], the personification and god of opportunity, was the youngest divine offspring of Zeus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Tyrian and Egyptian Deities, and Apotheosised Mortals**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Diodorus Siculus tells us that **Herakles**, the son of Zeus and Alkmene [Alcmene], was the last and final child borne to the king of the gods by a mortal woman. After his own death as a mortal, he became a god on Mt Olympos [Olympus], where he officially bore the title Olympios, &quot;Olympian&quot; (*Library of History* 4.15.1). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Héraclès Cour Carrée Louvre][4]][4]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Héraclès, *by Philippe-Laurent Roland*](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Relief_Heracles_cour_Carree_Louvre.jpg), droite *part of the West Façade of the Cour Carrée of the Louvre, Paris*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles' descendant **Alexander the Great**, however, was notoriously claimed, even during his lifetime, to have been the offspring of Zeus rather than the son of King Philip II of Makedonia [Macedon]. When he conquered Egypt he was enthroned as the son of Ammon-Ra. The African god Ammon, who formed part of this combination-deity, was equated by the Greeks with their Zeus. After Alexander's death, his successor as Pharaoh, Ptolemy I, venerated the deceased Makedonian conqueror as a god in a major cult whose institution in Egypt lasted for the next three centuries.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his work *On Animals*, Aelian mentions the Greek notion that the Naiad Io, an ancestress of Herakles and of Alexander, became the Egyptian goddess Aset [Isis], while **Epaphos** [Epaphus], Io's son by Zeus, became the Apis bull, which was a very important god in the same country.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greeks referred to the Phoenician god **Melqart** as Herakles. The Roman writer Cicero identifies this Herakles as a child of Zeus who is different from the Theban son of Alkmene. This Phoenician Herakles, Cicero claims in *De Natura Deorum*, is the son of Zeus by the Titan Asteria.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like Herakles, **the twin Dioskouroi** [Dioscuri], &quot;Zeus's Boys,&quot; named Kastor [Castor] and Polydeukes [Polydeuces], grew up as mortal heroes before joining the gods on Mt Olympos. There are two versions of their parentage, in both of which they are said to have been twins. Either both of them were the sons of Zeus by the mortal queen Leda, or Polydeukes was Zeus's child while Kastor's father was Leda's husband Tyndareus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the same story from the *Cypria* which tells us that Nemesis was Zeus's daughter, the goddess is raped by her own father after each of them has taken the form of a bird. **Helen**, the most beautiful woman in the world, who later on is the cause of the Trojan War, results from this forced union, and she is raised by Queen Leda as the sister of the Dioskouroi. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In most accounts, however, Leda is Helen's biological mother. Either way, Helen, after her mortal lifetime, came to be worshipped on the island of Rhodes as Dendritis, a goddess of trees, as well as in other cults, such as one in Attika [Attica] dedicated both to herself and to her brothers, and in certain locations in their native Lakonia [Laconia], whose queen she had been.     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Children of Hera, Demeter, Kore-Persephone, and Semele**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By his seventh and final wife Hera, Zeus is generally known to have become the father of **Hebe**, the personification of youth; **Eileithyia**, the goddess of childbirth; of the war-god **Ares**; and of the smith-god **Hephaistos**. There are, however, Greek myths making it out that Hephaistos actually had no father, and Roman myths to the effect that Ares and Hebe were not engendered through the power of male seed either. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Ricci Hydria Hebe &amp; Herakles][5]][5]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Detail from [Ricci Hydria](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pittore_del_louvre_E739,_hydria_ricci,_etruria_(artigiani_da_focea),_dalla_banditaccia,_530_ac._ca.,_ercole_all%27olimpo_su_quadriga_con_ebe_1.jpg) showing Hebe bringing Herakles to Olympos from Earth upon his apotheosis*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A number of Greek sources name Hera as Eileithyia's mother without mentioning Zeus, although this need not necessarily mean that her paternity is as dubious a proposition as that of the other children of the queen of the gods. Eileithyia is frequently referred to in plural form, as *the Eileithyiai*, making it such that there were at least *two* such daughters of Hera in addition to the other aforementioned siblings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Iliad*, **Eris**, the goddess of strife and discord, is referred to as &quot;the sister and companion of murderous Ares&quot;, suggesting that she must be a daughter of Zeus and Hera. The war-goddess **Enyo** is either another sister of Ares or merely a form of Eris.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hekate**, the goddess of witchcraft, typically occurs as the daughter of the Titans Perses and Asteria, but there are versions of her parentage in which she is the daughter, rather, of Zeus either by Asteria or by Hera or Demeter. As the daughter of Zeus and Demeter she would be the sister of her fellow Underworld goddess **Persephone**. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The wine-god **Dionysos** [Dionysus], in his Orphic incarnation prior to his birth as the son of Zeus by the Kadmeian princess Semele, was a shape-shifting baby god named **Zagreus**, in whose myth he commonly appears as the son of Kore by her own father Zeus. (Kore is the name borne by Persephone before she becomes Queen of the Underworld.) Zagreus is otherwise named as son of Zeus and Demeter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the Orphic Hymn to Melinoe, Persephone bore her own father Zeus a nymph named **Melinoe**, whom Theoi.com defines as &quot;a frightful underworld goddess who presided over propitiations offered to the ghosts of the dead.&quot; According to Wikipedia, she was &quot;represented as a bringer of nightmares and madness.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Olympians, Rivers, and Other Major and Minor Divinities** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Theoi.com identifies **Iasion**, a son of Zeus by the Pleïad Elektra [Electra], as some sort of minor agricultural deity, a &quot;Demi-God of the Samothracian Mysteries&quot;, based, apparently, on his association with Demeter. According to Diodorus Siculus, **Harmonia**, the goddess of harmony, otherwise known as the daughter of Ares and Aphrodite, was the daughter of Zeus and Elektra. Iasion's wife the Phrygian goddess Kybele [Cybele], says Pausanias, was originally born as a double-gendered being called **Agdistis**, after the Phrygian sky-god Dios (identified with Zeus) had impregnated the Earth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the top ranks of the pantheon, you have already made note of **Apollon** [Apollo], **Artemis**, **Athena**, and **Hermes**. The part-goat woodland god **Pan** is usually named as a son of Hermes but in Apollodorus' *Library* 1.4.1 he occurs as a son of Zeus. **Aigipan** [Aegipan], another part-goat deity, closely associated with the great Pan, is usually said to be Zeus's son, although Oppian's *Halieutica* has him as Hermes' offspring. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Hermes &amp; Aigipan - Zeus Rescue][6]][6]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Hermes and Aigipan Rescuing Their Father Zeus from a Dragon* &lt;sup&gt;✭✭&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Palikoi** [Palici] were, as described by Theoi.com, &quot;twin demi-gods (*daimones*) of the geysers and hot-springs of Palakia (Palacae) in Sicily&quot;, and they were the sons either of Zeus or Hephaistos. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Two groups of mysterious minor gods, **the Korybantes** [Corybantes] and **the Idaean Dactyls**, who are often confused or identified with each other, are associated with Kybele and Iasion, and are mentioned as having helped to rear Zeus when he was a baby. Strabo's *Geography* 10.3.19, however, names the Korybantes as the sons of Zeus by his own daughter the Muse Kalliope [Calliope]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Strabo doesn't say how many of them there are supposed to have been, but Nonnus' *Dionysiaca* names **nine** brothers who may or may not be equated with the Korybantes, or the Dactyls or the Kouretes [Curetes]. From the jumble of different traditions concerning the Dactyls, it seems that there may have been three, **five** or nine of them. The number five is attractive in their case because their name means &quot;Fingers,&quot; thus corresponding to the digits on one human hand.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, there are **six rivers** said, in some places, to have been Zeus' offspring, although the rivers generally are children of the Titan Okeanos [Oceanus]. In Apollodorus' *Library*, **Asopos** [Asopus] is the son of Zeus by Okeanos' daughter Eurynome, which would make him the brother of the three Kharites. The other five are **Lamos** [Lamus]; **Istros** [Ister], known today as the Danube; the Lydian river **Paktolos** [Pactolus]; the Colchian river **Phasis**; and the Trojan river **Skamandros** [Scamander], who is also known as Xanthos [Xanthus].  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Further Reading**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm yet to come across a completely comprehensive listing of every last one of Zeus's [divine] children in one spot, like I've tried to achieve here, but the following come pretty close. My collection of personages in this Answer is in part compiled from these sources. (The lists you'll find among these will include both mortal and divine offspring, not necessarily organised distinctly.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - [The Greek Mythology Link article on&#xD;&#xA;   Zeus](https://www.maicar.com/GML/Zeus.html) (see the bottom of the&#xD;&#xA;   page, under the heading &quot;Family&quot;)&#xD;&#xA; - [Wikipedia's list-tables of Zeus's&#xD;&#xA;   Children](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus#Children)&#xD;&#xA; - Theoi.com's [Zeus Family&#xD;&#xA;   page](https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/ZeusFamily.html) (which does in fact&#xD;&#xA;   list [Zeus's Divine&#xD;&#xA;   Offspring](https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/ZeusFamily.html#Divine)&#xD;&#xA;   separately from his mortal children)&#xD;&#xA; - There is also, in book format, an extremely comprehensive family tree&#xD;&#xA;   of the characters from Greco-Roman mythology, which covers the&#xD;&#xA;   various versions of the deities named in this Answer:  &#xD;&#xA;   *A Genealogical Chart of Greek Mythology, Comprising 3,673 Named Figures of Greek Mythology, All Related to Each Other Within a Single&#xD;&#xA;   Family of 20 Generations*, Compiled by Harold Newman &amp; Jon O. Newman&#xD;&#xA;   (The University of North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill &amp; London, 2003)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Notes**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;✭ Peter (petrus.agricola). March 28, 2021, &quot;T26 - Zeus, majestically seated on an eagle, clouds beneath feet, banishes his daughter Ate ( discord ) from heaven 4bs – Gnaios,&quot; plaster cast of a gem - Oxford; [Beazley Gem database](https://www.beazley.ox.ac.uk/carc/Home), viewed 20 December 2021, https://www.flickr.com/photos/28433765@N07/51078137382/&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;✭✭ Peter (petrus.agricola). March 28, 2021, &quot;T24 - Hermes &amp; Aegipan sending to sleep the enormous dragon which guards the cave of Corycus &amp; deliver Zeus 4bs – Kromos,&quot; plaster cast of a gem - Oxford; [Beazley Gem database](https://www.beazley.ox.ac.uk/carc/Home), viewed 20 December 2021, https://www.flickr.com/photos/28433765@N07/51078138322/&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/v5fxH.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/sAvl3.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/EnElG.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/EYU2B.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/S3H7D.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Gz8dF.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28376" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="8016" RevisionGUID="d468fd07-71cd-40fa-8120-ac97654c9910" CreationDate="2021-12-24T03:36:23.177" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; corrected a detail" Text="ACTION SCENES&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We have several details connected with the part of the chronology in question, but as far as I've been able to find, beyond plain statements about there having been a cosmic conflict, there are only two fairly fleshed-out fight scenes from this war. One of them is the final showdown between the Olympians and the Titans, narrated at some length in [Hesiod's *Theogony*](https://www.theoi.com/Text/HesiodTheogony.html) 664-735. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Kronos vs Zeus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The other battle-scene is a brief mention by Nonnus in Book 18 of his *Dionysiaca*. Kronos is here described as having the power to control weather phenomena so that in Lines 230-234, he calls sharp arrows of hail down from the sky upon Zeus but then the latter, in response, &quot;armed himself with more fires than the sun and melted the petrified water with hotter sparks.&quot; I presume that Zeus's &quot;fires&quot; here are intended as a poetic description of lightning. In *Dionysiaca* 24, Kronos is &quot;armed in vain with the watery weapons of the storm.&quot; In Book 12 of the same work it is implied that among these weapons are snowstorms.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Nine Hundred Arms**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apart from Poseidon's Trident, Hades's cap of invisibility, and an unnamed giant connected with Kronos (more on him in the section `Kronos's Gigantic Allies` below), the only other thing we are told about the implements of warfare employed during this altercation is that both sides used hard *bélea*, &quot;missiles,&quot; of some kind, against each other. Occurring in this instance in Hesiod's *Theogony* 684, this word often refers to arrows or spears but could mean any kind of weapon, such as swords, or even scorpion-stings. In Line 716 the term refers to the barrage of rocks hurled at the Titans by the Hundred-Handed Ones.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod's narration of this battlefield clash is concerned mostly with the environmental effects thereof. According to this passage, the two rival groups caused so much commotion that its reverberations were felt throughout the universe. The noise they made rang throughout the sea, the sky quaked, the stamping of their feet shook the earth all the way into Tartaros [Tartarus], and the din of their voices reached the stars.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first few lines of the aforementioned *Theogony* passage tell us that Zeus's entire team of gods, &quot;both male and female,&quot; participated in the battle, but the only figures who feature in their own special cameos in the ensuing combat as to be singled out by name are Zeus and his three Hundred-Handed uncles. (See, however, the case of Menoitios [Menoetius] below.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After the world-rattling noise made by the clashing armies, &quot;Then,&quot; in Lines 687-714, &quot;Zeus no longer held back his might&quot;, whereupon he began to pour a blitz of thunder and lightning upon the enemy. Even so, Hesiod's focus remains fixed on the damage wreaked upon the landscape, which was bathed in flames that lit all the woodlands ablaze. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meanwhile the entire atmosphere was cooked all the way up to the limits of Chaos itself so that the sea and even the perpetually placid, earth-encircling stream of Okeanos [Oceanus] begin to boil, and the Titans were blinded. In spite of all of that, and further noise, dust-storm and earthquake, the contest raged on as the two sides &quot;kept at one another and fought continually in cruel war.&quot; Kronos did *not* surrender. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to *Theogony* 713-735, what turned the tide of the war is that Kottos [Cottus], Briareos [Briareus] and Gyes, the three Hundred-Handed Giants, overpowered the Titans with the superior speed and volume granted to their firepower by the number of appendages they had at their disposal for launching their &quot;missiles&quot; of stone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The scene then abruptly shifts to a description of Tartaros and how the Titans were cast into it after being assaulted by the Hekatonkheires [Hundred-Handers]. Poseidon appears in this passage, but only to be mentioned as the builder of the bronze doors fitted over the mouth of the pit of Tartaros to increase its inescapability. The passage then ends with the Hekatonkheires being sent back to Tartaros but this time as its jailers, guarding their brother Kronos who previously had held them prisoner in the same chasm.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Menoitios**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There were four of Zeus's cousins who were brothers, named Atlas, Menoitios, Prometheus and Epimetheus. In some way or another, whether they had sided with him in the war or not, Zeus ended up having a major falling-out with each of them that resulted in some punishment or calamity that the Olympian leader visited upon each brother after the war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of the four, Menoitios is the one we know the least about. He is, however, exceptional in that he is also the only Titan specifically named as having been brought low by Zeus's thunderbolt *during the course* of the war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Menoitios was hubristic, and far-seeing Zeus struck him with a lurid&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thunderbolt and sent him down to Erebos [*Erebus, the Darkness of the Underworld*] because of his mad presumption&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and exceeding pride.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;*Theogony* 514-516&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; ... Menoitios, he whom Zeus in the battle with the Titans smote with a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thunderbolt and hurled down to Tartaros.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Apollodorus, *Library* 1.2.3&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For some reason William Smith's 1890 Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology goes so far as to say that this lightning-zap actually killed Menoitios.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sykeus, the 13th Titan?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Athenaeus' *Deipnosophistae*, quoting Tryphon's *History of Plants*, quoting *The Farmer's Handbook* by Androtion, refers to Sykeus as &quot;one of the Titans&quot; whose mother was Gaia (the Earth), essentially suggesting the idea that there was a thirteenth Titan born to Ouranos [Uranus, the &quot;Sky&quot;] and Gaia, although Ouranos is not explicitly mentioned in this passage. We know nothing about what happened to Sykeus beyond the assertion that Zeus pursued him and that Gaia protected him, causing the *sykea* (&quot;fig-tree&quot;), &quot;to grow for her son's pleasure; from him also the city of Sykea in Cilicia got its name.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Beginning&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The dawn of war is described in *Theogony* 383-403, where we learn that the first soldiers to join up with Zeus, upon his declaration that he was going up against his father, were, incidentally, a bunch of winged Titans. These recruits, two sisters (Nike and Bia, &quot;Victory&quot; and &quot;Violence&quot;) and two brothers (Zelos and Kratos, &quot;Zeal&quot; and &quot;Might&quot;), were the children of the Underworld river Styx, and eventually would become the personal bodyguard of Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There's no account of any confrontation between Poseidon and Okeanos because the latter abstained from fighting in the war. He was also the only one of the original male Titans to refrain from laying violent hands upon Ouranos when Kronos was castrating their father.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Okeanos learned of Zeus's war announcement, he advised Styx, his eldest daughter, to enlist with the Olympians along with her four children. As a reward, Styx's name became the most sacred oath in the universe, and, once Kronos had been overthrown, Styx's offspring were assigned their permanent employment at the side of the new king of the gods. Okeanos, for his part, maintained his position as the god of the world-encircling river which was his own body, and thus an integral part of the superstructure of the universe. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus had incentivised his soldiers with the lure of positions of privilege in the new régime for whoever would join his cause. According to Aeschylus' play *Prometheus Bound*, Zeus promptly kept these campaign promises by doling out the aforementioned goodies &quot;as soon as he had seated himself on his father’s throne&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a fragment from a lost work of Aeschylus, the goddess Dike, &quot;Justice,&quot; says that Kronos was defeated by Zeus because the latter had her on his side, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;since his father began the quarrel, that he paid him back with Justice&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on his side. That is why Zeus has done me great honour, because after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; being attacked he paid him back, not unjustly.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For this reason, says Dike, she sits &quot;in glory by the throne of Zeus&quot;.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Total War&#xD;&#xA;---------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The battlefield of the Titanomachy would appear to have been the Plain of Thessaly, which lies in between the two mountains upon which Hesiod situates the strongholds of the two opposing camps. The Titans were stationed on Mt Othrys, at the southern end of the plain, while Zeus and his crew had set up on Mt Olympos [Olympus], towards the northern edge of the region.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the same passage in which Hesiod supplies us this geography (*Theogony* 616-643), he says that the fighting between the two camps never let up, not even for a little bit, but raged on &quot;ten full years ... continually&quot;, with neither side losing or gaining any ground because of how evenly they were matched. It was then that Gaia advised Zeus to release the Hekatonkheires from Tartaros, in which incarceration they had spent their entire lives, and where Kronos had posted an immense millipede-like monster called Kampe [Campe] as their prison warden.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Apollodorus' *Library* 1.2.1, Zeus killed Kampe in order to effect his uncles' release. In *Dionysiaca* 18.235-267, Nonnus describes the scene at length. He does, however spend the majority of those 32 lines merely describing the monster in intricate detail. Towards the beginning of the passage he spares a few words to say that Zeus &quot;destroyed high-headed Kampe with a thunderbolt&quot;. Thereafter the passage concludes with the very scant statement that, simply, the god killed and conquered her. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus has yet way less detail than this, although it is from him that we learn why Zeus had needed to confront her in the first place. In Apollodorus, the Cyclopes as well as the Hekatonkheires have likewise endured lifelong captivity in Tartaros before being released by Zeus. At this point Hesiod's narrative continues with the Hundred-Handers being fed nectar and ambrosia, which &quot;revived their proud spirit within them&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After this it doesn't take much for Zeus's two sets of triplet Giant uncles to get with his program, and this is where Kronos's team virtually gets pelted into Tartaros after being sprayed with thunderbolts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Hyginus' *Astronomica* 2.39 the Cyclopes construct the constellation Ara, the &quot;Altar,&quot; upon which&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the gods are thought to have first made offerings and formed an&#xD;&#xA;&gt; alliance when they were about to oppose the Titans... From this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; observance men established the custom that when they plan to do&#xD;&#xA;&gt; something, they make sacrifices before beginning the undertaking.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Defections&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to *Prometheus Bound*, Prometheus learned the future from his mother Themis, and together with her he defected to the Olympian side. Before he did so, however, he tried to persuade his fellow Titans to do likewise but they wouldn't listen to him. Hesychius says that Prometheus had been the herald of the Titans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(There is an obscure apocryphal story according to which the reason that Zeus is hostile towards Prometheus is that he was born to Hera after the goddess had been raped by the Giant Eurymedon while she was still living in her parents' house. Eurymedon was cast into Tartaros together with the Titans who lost the war.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There was also at least one defection to the other side. According to Ptolemy Hephaestion, the winged rainbow-goddess Iris, who was the swiftest being in the universe, had a sister named Arke [Arce]. Like Iris, Arke was winged, and &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; during the struggle of the gods against the Titans, Arke flew out of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the camp of the gods and joined the Titans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After the war, Zeus tore off Arke's wings and cast her into Tartaros. Thousands of years later, at the wedding of Peleus and Thetis, he presented these wings as a gift to Thetis. When the sea-goddess had her son Akhilleus [Achilles], she attached the wings to his feet, thus making him the fastest runner alive at the time. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kronos's Gigantic Allies&#xD;&#xA;------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Indos** [Indus]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like Zeus, Kronos too had Giants on his side. In *Dionysiaca* 18, immediately after the reference to Kampe's death, Nonnus tells us that Indos, the ancestor of the Indians, was an autochthonous &quot;champion of warfare with towering limbs... brought low&quot; by Zeus &quot;in the conflict with Kronos&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Son of Ekhidna** [*Echidna*]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He then goes on to describe a humongous &quot;dragon-footed&quot; creature he calls simply &quot;Ekhidna's son&quot; and &quot;the enemy of the gods&quot;, who spat venom into the Sky in such profusion that it created large clouds of poison, and who was so huge that the birds flying through the air would get caught in the vast mass of his dreadlocked hair, which hair he would then use to sweep these birds into his mouth to chew them live for dinner. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nonnus seems to be describing a peculiar apparatus in which Kronos used this Giant as some sort of missile or shield to counter Zeus' thunderbolts. The Giant was killed by Ares, and as is typical, we are told nothing about the method by which this was accomplished. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Briareos-Aigaion, the Sea-Giant**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There apparently was a rendition of this whole story in which a different version of the Hekatonkheiros [Hundred-Hander] Briareos took Kronos's side in the war. We are told in *Iliad* 1 that Briareos is this Giant's divine name but that &quot;all men&quot; know him, rather, by the name Aigaion [Aegaeon].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a now-lost *Titanomachy* epic attributed to Eumelus of Corinth. One of the very few things we know about it is that, within it, Aigaion, just as in the *Iliad*, is depicted as dwelling in the sea, but unlike in Homer's work, Eumelus says that Aigaion was &quot;an ally of the Titans.&quot; He also portrays the Giant as a son of Pontos [Pontus, the &quot;Sea&quot;] and Gaia. According to Ion of Chios, Aigaion was the son, rather, of Thalassa, the *female* personification of the sea (over against the male Pontos).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Callimachus' Hymn to Delos seems to envision Briareos as having been buried under Mt Aitna [Aetna] on the island of Sicily, in the same manner that the same end is usually ascribed to the Giants Enkelados [Enceladus] and Typhoeus after *their* altercation(s) with the Olympians. Earthquakes and volcanic eruptions on the island are then explained as one of these monsters shifting under the earth's weight above them, or fuming furiously against Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***The Guts of the Serpent-Bull***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The featured contribution of this alternate Briareos to the war effort during the Titanomachy is narrated by the Roman poet Ovid in *Fasti* 3.793-808, where he says that Gaia had given birth to a shocking monster in the shape of a bull that, in place of hindquarters, was composed of a snake. It was somehow known that whoever burned the intestines of this creature &quot;was destined to defeat the eternal gods.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Styx, trusty ally of Zeus that she was, and aided by the counsel of the three Fates, managed to capture and corral this monster snake-bull in a location which seems to be the Underworld. Briareos, however, was able to kill the monster using an unbreakable axe. He was about to perform the dread sacrifice, but since Zeus had commanded the birds to bring the monster's entrails to him, the kite snatched them just in time, delivering these innards to Zeus. This bird was then commemorated by being placed in the sky, within the constellation Boötes, as an asterism named Milvus, the &quot;Kite.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Azeus?** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A fragment from an unnamed writer says that a Giant named Azeus son of Gaia &quot;grew to manhood amid the mighty battles of the Titans.&quot; The most natural reading of this is perhaps that Azeus just happened to turn 18 or 21 while the Titanomachy was raging and not necessarily that he participated in it at all. And if he did fight in the war, we do not know on which side.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Water Supply&#xD;&#xA;------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Giovanni Boccaccio's *Genealogy of the Gods of the Gentiles* 3.5, Akheron [Acheron], the Underworld River of Woe, was a son of Demeter &quot;without a father,&quot; or he was the son of Helios and Gaia, and originally lived in the upper world. During the Titanomachy he provided &quot;clear water to the thirsty&quot; Titans. After the war Zeus muddied his clear water and thrust him into the Underworld where the sole source of moisture for his stream now became the tears of sinners suffering in Tartaros.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other Titanomachies&#xD;&#xA;-------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The God That Fought for His Life (and Lost)**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are yet other, rather different accounts of the conflict between the new gods and the Titans. At least two of them might be Orphic. In *Dionysiaca* 6, Nonnus tells the story of Zagreus, the powerful shape-shifting baby son of Zeus by his own daughter Kore (who later becomes Persephone). Indignant that Zeus has placed this illegitimate infant upstart upon his own throne and lets him play with his thunderbolts, Hera induces &quot;the Titans&quot; to trick the baby god and cut him to pieces with &quot;an infernal knife.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;The Titans are able to corner Zagreus by covering their faces&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with chalk and by showing him a mirror...&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Zagreus's first instinct is to transform his appearance into that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of his own father Zeus... Then he appears as... &quot;Kronos, heavy-kneed,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and pouring rain.&quot; After those... disguises, Zagreus becomes a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; baby, an adolescent boy, a roaring lion, a wild horse, a snake, a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tiger and then a bull.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;With the sharp horns of his bull-form, Zagreus attempts to gore&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Titans, but then Hera, who is watching from a distance, emits a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bellow so loud that it causes the Zagreus-bull to collapse. The bull&#xD;&#xA;&gt; then gets slaughtered.&lt;/sup&gt;   &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;*~ From [my Answer to another&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Question](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/4672/2682)*&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In response to this, Zeus confines the Titans to Tartaros, and angrily sets the entire world on fire until Okeanos weeps for the scorched earth. Zeus calms down and then, in order to douse the flames, he floods the entire cosmos, causing even more death and destruction than the fire did. In this version, this is how the Flood of Deukalion [Deucalion] happens, after which the land is drained of the floodwaters, and the world gets slowly repopulated. Zagreus himself is later reincarnated as Dionysos [Dionysus].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a variant of this myth, the Titans devoured the murdered Zagreus-Dionysos, and Zeus reduced them to ashes with a blast of lightning. These remains were then mixed with mud, from which arose humankind, which therefore has two warring natures within it, one celestial and Dionysiac, and the other earthly and Titanic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The African Titan-Wars**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to entry 150 of Hyginus' *Fabulae*, Hera was jealous of Epaphos [Epaphus], yet another one of Zeus's illegitimate offspring, in his case because he ruled the great kingdom of Egypt. Hera assassinated him and then encouraged the Titans, led by Atlas, to depose Zeus in order to restore Kronos to the throne. Attempting to &quot;climb up to heaven,&quot; the Titans were instead cast headlong into Tartaros by Zeus, who was supported on this occasion by Athena, Apollo and Artemis. Posted in what is now Morocco, Atlas was then forced to bear the weight of the sky on his shoulders in order to keep it separate from the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the [*Library of History* 3.68-74](https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Diodorus_Siculus/3E*.html), Diodorus Siculus narrates a euhemerised version of the Titanomachy in which Rhea was first married to a Libyan king called Ammon. After an affair with &quot;a maiden of unusual beauty whose name was Amaltheia&quot;, Ammon had a son named Dionysos, whom he hid from his wife. When Rhea found out about it, she went to her brothers the Titans and married one of them, Kronos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Dionysos had grown up, war broke out between him and his father's ex-wife, who, together with Kronos and the rest of her brothers, began an uprising against the rule of Dionysos. All the characters in the story are presented as regular humans. At some point Dionysos' army is composed of both Libyans and Amazons. He overcomes the Titans, making peace with Rhea but eventually having to kill rebels led by Kronos.              &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;*Parts of the above have been adapted from my participation in a post about the Titanomachy on MythForum.com*&lt;/sup&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28377" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7906" RevisionGUID="7a789e6e-bc0c-40e1-8fbc-7497bb1ba703" CreationDate="2021-12-24T04:01:08.220" UserId="2682" Comment="updated a detail" Text="**Definitions**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Presumably by &quot;demigods&quot; you are referring to the relatively modern term as taken to denote a character from Greco-Roman mythology who is the offspring of a deity and of a human being.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Ancient Greek *hēmítheos* and the Latin *semideus*, from which we get the English &quot;demigod,&quot; does literally mean &quot;half-god,&quot; but this is misleading. The ancient usage of the term does not refer to a mortal who is literally half divine based on his/her parentage. Rather it is a term for a lower-tier divinity, a sort of minor god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Ancient Greek religion one can sketch out roughly three different levels of divinities who were honoured with cults: the *theoí* (gods); the *hēmítheoí*; and the *Hḗrōes* (Heroes). For the most part, the *theoí* were born immortal and had always been &quot;the gods.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Hēmítheoí* and Heroes were two different classes of divinities who typically tended to be dead humans who were recognised for their great deeds in life and therefore considered, in the afterlife, to have become powerful entities although lesser than the *theoí*. And it did so happen that a majority of them happened to have at least one divine parent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover the differences among these three different levels was not a permanent configuration, as demonstrated by the myth in which Herakles [Heracles] starts out as a Hero and then works his way up gradually to become a *hēmítheos* and eventually a full-blown *theós*, or, perhaps, more strictly speaking, he is considered to inhabit all three categories at the same time. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In one story, after Herakles’ suicide, his remains could not be found&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on his funeral pyre, so his nephew Iolaos became the first to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sacrifice to the dead hero as a *hemitheos* (demigod). &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to Pausanias’ *Description of Greece*, Herakles had a son&#xD;&#xA;&gt; named Phaistos [Phaestus] who became king of the city of Sikyon. When&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Phaistos first arrived at Sikyon he found that the locals were making&#xD;&#xA;&gt; offerings to Herakles as a hero. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; Phaistos then refused to do anything of the kind, but insisted on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; sacrificing to him as to a *theos*. Even at the present day [`100s AD, over a thousand years after Herakles’ death`] the Sikyonians,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; slaying a lamb and burning the thighs upon the altar, eat some of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; meat as part of a victim given to a *theos*, while the rest they offer&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; as to a hero.    &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; [2.10.1]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;~ *from [my Answer to another&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Question](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2666/2682)*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Lifespan**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as I am aware, the only extant ancient attestations of Herakles' age at death are in Clement of Alexandria's *Exhortation to the Greeks*, and Jerome's *Chronicon*, both of which are late sources by Christian authors. They both say that Herakles had lived for fifty-two years when his body burned on Mt Oita [Oeta]. (The ambiguous wording in Clement's text might possibly be implying that his source for this detail is either one of the Peripatetic philosophers Hieronymus or Dicaearchus.) Jerome also adds that &quot;certain people, however, write that he [*Herakles*] perished&quot; when he was only thirty years old.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even going by the more modern Riordanesque definition of &quot;demigod,&quot; there is nothing particularly special about the lifespans of the children born from unions between humans and the Greco-Roman gods. For the most part, generally speaking, in terms of capabilities, durability and nature, they are just as mortal, vulnerable and human as all other ordinary men and women, pretty much indistinguishable from them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Among these mortal progeny of the gods there are indeed some who stand out in a few different ways, but they are exceptions. Especially as far as lifespan is concerned, this is best illustrated by another son of Zeus, namely King Sarpedon of Lycia, who was slain in the Trojan War, despite Zeus's own desire to keep him alive. According to Apollodorus' *Bibliotheca* 3.1.2, Zeus had created a special dispensation for him to live for three generations, thus making him most likely the oldest person to fight in that war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Glitches in the Timeline**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even ancient mythographers seemed to be a little bit incredulous at the idea that Sarpedon, who should have died something like a hundred years before the Trojan War, was one of the warriors defending Troy. This gave rise to two different versions of the character. In Homer's *Iliad* he does not seem to be a supernaturally old man, being the son of Zeus by Bellerophontes' daughter Laodameia. There is, however, also the version in which he is the son of Zeus and Europa, and thus one of the brothers of King Minos of Crete. In yet one other variant the Sarpedon who dies at Troy is the grandson of Minos' brother Sarpedon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The mythology is somewhat replete with chronological discrepancies like this one. Minos himself is supposed to have died only one generation before the Trojan War. However, if he was the son of Europa, then by my calculations we would have to have been at least two hundred years old at death. Again, certain ancient writers, being aware of the issue, came up with similar explanations as for those of his brother Sarpedon. The Minos who died a generation before the war at Troy, according to them, is the *grandson* of a more ancient Minos, who in turn was the son of Zeus and Europa.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On occasion, Herakles/Hercules also encounters individuals from long before his time in places like Egypt and India. The Roman writer Cicero explains this away by asserting that there were a number of different previous characters called Hercules, and some of them were children of Zeus (or rather of his Roman counterpart Jupiter) by yet *other* women.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It would be a clever hack to these anachronisms to deduce that these &quot;demigods,&quot; because of their descent from the gods, are just that long-lived, and therefore could last a couple of centuries before growing old and perishing, but no ancient source makes such a claim. Hence all mortals, whether their parents are immortal or divine or not, are portrayed as suffering the same rate of decay as everybody else, unless extracurricular intervention is made on their behalf.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Minimum* Life Expectancy**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whatever age at which a regular garden-variety human can die is the same age at which a &quot;demigod&quot; can end his life, which is why Herakles' stepmother Hera tried to assassinate him when he was still a baby. Although that attempt failed, there are, in fact, quite gruesome stories featuring the deaths of infant children of certain deities. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In one, an Argive princess named Psamathe was raped by the god Apollon [Apollo] and bore him a son named Linos [Linus]. Being unmarried and still living in her father's house, Psamathe had managed to keep the birth a secret, but fearful of what her father might do, she abandoned the newborn outside where he was torn apart by the king's sheepdogs. (This tragedy is part of a story told to explain how a temple of Apollon came to be built on Mt Gerania.) " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
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  <row Id="28380" PostHistoryTypeId="20" PostId="2834" RevisionGUID="d110bcda-bea7-4088-8368-3187e1ef84c2" CreationDate="2021-12-26T21:05:25.013" UserId="108" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:108,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Semaphore&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="28381" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10280" RevisionGUID="6bcd3eb5-86b4-4dcd-b2bb-74595d118c54" CreationDate="2021-12-27T09:46:15.217" UserId="8851" Text="I am a fan of this song, and this question. After thinking about the song for some time, I was enabled to gain some impressions of my own, and I felt inclined to share them here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The song seems to be about a child's becoming or wanting to become a superhero. To me it says that the author of the lyrics found a loving protector, the female character in the song, before he found stardom. I am not sure if &quot;she&quot; is his mother, or Jesus, or a special woman in his life, or an alien entity. But I think the song expresses a child's feelings of unworthiness about receiving the promised gifts, and it assuages his concerns about the risks he will confront on the path that he is being shown.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The lyrics seem deliberately childish. I think this can be heard in the opening line, &quot;I've been reading books of old&quot; - in the contrast between the casual &quot;I've been reading&quot; and the archaic &quot;books of old&quot;. Chris Martin is not, as others have pointed out, trying to prove himself as a classicist here - he studied [under Jeremy Bentham](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_College_London). If it sounds like an imaginative child is putting his own spin on the myths, then we should at least credit the musician's mythical associations for setting a tone that is consistent with the rest of the song. There is even an animated [official lyric video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FM7MFYoylVs) which shows a child in a spaceship.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the same time, I think it is possible to synthesize some of the other answers into an interpretation that refers to something more mature and more specific, and which may even be deliberate on the part of the artist.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Consider that Achilles was known for being *swift*, and Hercules for being *strong*. The narrator is worried that he won't be swift or strong enough to make his dreams come true. But his benefactor replies that she's not looking for someone who is already a hero. Maybe she then reassured the narrator with the verse from the Bible that says: &quot;the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong&quot;. The full text of that verse is:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Ecclesiastes 9:11** I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The verse lists five superhero gifts and traits:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. race / swift&#xD;&#xA;2. battle / strong&#xD;&#xA;3. bread / wise&#xD;&#xA;4. riches / understanding&#xD;&#xA;5. favour / skill&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The song lists five superheroes, and things they have:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Achilles / gold&#xD;&#xA;2. Hercules / gifts&#xD;&#xA;3. Spider-Man / control&#xD;&#xA;4. Batman / fists&#xD;&#xA;5. Superman / suit&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As I already noted, there is a good correspondence between the first two items in each list. For example, although it would sound just as well to switch Achilles and Hercules in the song, this would break the correspondence to Ecclesiastes: Hercules is known for being strong, not swift; it is Achilles who is called &quot;swift-footed&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, of the modern superheroes, Batman (number 4) is best known for being wealthy (&quot;riches&quot;) in his day-job identity, and he is the next easiest to cross off the list.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the last item, number 5: Superman may have just as much &quot;favour&quot; as the other heroes, but this depends on his suit, which serves to insulate his superhero identity from that of the timid journalist Clark Kent. You wouldn't want to try to rescue someone while dressed like Clark Kent! It could have been Spider-Man's suit, or Batman's, but we can see that wearing a suit brings (worldly) favor, and making a suit requires skill. Certainly a suit is more apt to win favor than the &quot;race&quot; or the &quot;battle&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Incidentally, creating a metaphorical &quot;superhero suit&quot; might be an essential skill for a pop star, who must also maintain two separate identities - the reclusive intellectual composer and lyricist, versus the &quot;superhero&quot; stage performer. Some of the symbolism that we're trying to analyze here might be like a costume that creates the lyricist's public persona: something that covers the details of his private life, without pretending there isn't a human beneath it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The hardest connection for me to explain is Spider-Man with *bread* and *wisdom*. The best explanation I could think of, is that Spider-Man's abilities are due to an [&quot;unstable performance-enhancing chemical&quot;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider-Man_(2002_film)); in fact he is the only hero in the song's list whose abilities are said to come from an ingested (injected?) substance; and bread is the only edible item on the Ecclesiastes list. Moreover, bread is perishable and therefore &quot;unstable&quot;. Finally, in the Bible there is a description of a mysterious unstable substance that Moses called &quot;bread&quot; but his followers called &quot;*manna*&quot; or &quot;What is it?&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Exodus 16:15** And when the children of Israel saw it, they said one to another, It is manna: for they [knew] not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the Lord hath given you to eat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We know that manna was even more unstable than bread, because it grew worms if left &quot;until the morning&quot; (Ex 16:20). I'm not sure what this has to do with &quot;Spider-Man's *control*&quot;, except that after Moses gave manna to his followers and taught them how to gather it, they were thirsty and hungry and murmured against him - and they still had to eat it for forty years. Did they all become superheroes before they got to the promised land? Anyway, Moses is the best connection I could make between *bread* and Spider-Man. Also, *control* may be connected with *wisdom*, the corresponding attribute in Ecclesiastes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Besides the five gifts, there are a few other hints at Ecclesiastes 9:11 in the song. In fact the entire rest of this verse appears in one form or another in the song's lyrics. Ecclesiastes 9:11 mentions &quot;time and chance&quot;: &quot;time&quot; becomes &quot;somebody I can miss&quot;; and &quot;chance&quot; becomes &quot;risk&quot;. The phrase &quot;I returned, and saw under the sun&quot; becomes &quot;The moon and its eclipse&quot;. The song's words &quot;moon and its eclipse&quot; originally suggested a lunar eclipse to me, but with the help of the Ecclesiastes correspondence, I can now see that the song is talking about a solar eclipse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In answer to the original question, I think the song is not so much a reference to specific super-heroes and their stories, but to five super-hero traits that musician was seeking to possess as a child. For whatever reason, the song's list of five traits seems to mirror the list of five traits in Ecclesiastes 9:11.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28383" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10280" RevisionGUID="df5baa25-5db0-4f97-ba50-87b82166b219" CreationDate="2021-12-27T11:06:17.720" UserId="8851" Comment="typo" Text="I am a fan of this song, and this question. After thinking about the song for some time, I was enabled to gain some impressions of my own, and I felt inclined to share them here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The song seems to be about a child's becoming or wanting to become a superhero. To me it says that the author of the lyrics found a loving protector, the female character in the song, before he found stardom. I am not sure if &quot;she&quot; is his mother, or Jesus, or a special woman in his life, or an alien entity. But I think the song expresses a child's feelings of unworthiness about receiving the promised gifts, and it assuages his concerns about the risks he will confront on the path that he is being shown.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The lyrics seem deliberately childish. I think this can be heard in the opening line, &quot;I've been reading books of old&quot; - in the contrast between the casual &quot;I've been reading&quot; and the archaic &quot;books of old&quot;. Chris Martin is not, as others have pointed out, trying to prove himself as a classicist here - he studied [under Jeremy Bentham](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_College_London). If it sounds like an imaginative child is putting his own spin on the myths, then we should at least credit the musician's mythical associations for setting a tone that is consistent with the rest of the song. There is even an animated [official lyric video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FM7MFYoylVs) which shows a child in a spaceship.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the same time, I think it is possible to synthesize some of the other answers into an interpretation that refers to something more mature and more specific, and which may even be deliberate on the part of the artist.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Consider that Achilles was known for being *swift*, and Hercules for being *strong*. The narrator is worried that he won't be swift or strong enough to make his dreams come true. But his benefactor replies that she's not looking for someone who is already a hero. Maybe she then reassured the narrator with the verse from the Bible that says: &quot;the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong&quot;. The full text of that verse is:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Ecclesiastes 9:11** I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The verse lists five superhero gifts and traits:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. race / swift&#xD;&#xA;2. battle / strong&#xD;&#xA;3. bread / wise&#xD;&#xA;4. riches / understanding&#xD;&#xA;5. favour / skill&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The song lists five superheroes, and things they have:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Achilles / gold&#xD;&#xA;2. Hercules / gifts&#xD;&#xA;3. Spider-Man / control&#xD;&#xA;4. Batman / fists&#xD;&#xA;5. Superman / suit&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As I already noted, there is a good correspondence between the first two items in each list. For example, although it would sound just as well to switch Achilles and Hercules in the song, this would break the correspondence to Ecclesiastes: Hercules is known for being strong, not swift; it is Achilles who is called &quot;swift-footed&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, of the modern superheroes, Batman (number 4) is best known for being wealthy (&quot;riches&quot;) in his day-job identity, and he is the next easiest to cross off the list.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the last item, number 5: Superman may have just as much &quot;favour&quot; as the other heroes, but this depends on his suit, which serves to insulate his superhero identity from that of the timid journalist Clark Kent. You wouldn't want to try to rescue someone while dressed like Clark Kent! It could have been Spider-Man's suit, or Batman's, but we can see that wearing a suit brings (worldly) favor, and making a suit requires skill. Certainly a suit is more apt to win favor than the &quot;race&quot; or the &quot;battle&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Incidentally, creating a metaphorical &quot;superhero suit&quot; might be an essential skill for a pop star, who must also maintain two separate identities - the reclusive intellectual composer and lyricist, versus the &quot;superhero&quot; stage performer. Some of the symbolism that we're trying to analyze here might be like a costume that creates the lyricist's public persona: something that covers the details of his private life, without pretending there isn't a human beneath it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The hardest connection for me to explain is Spider-Man with *bread* and *wisdom*. The best explanation I could think of, is that Spider-Man's abilities are due to an [&quot;unstable performance-enhancing chemical&quot;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider-Man_(2002_film)); in fact he is the only hero in the song's list whose abilities are said to come from an ingested (injected?) substance; and bread is the only edible item on the Ecclesiastes list. Moreover, bread is perishable and therefore &quot;unstable&quot;. Finally, in the Bible there is a description of a mysterious unstable substance that Moses called &quot;bread&quot; but his followers called &quot;*manna*&quot; or &quot;What is it?&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Exodus 16:15** And when the children of Israel saw it, they said one to another, It is manna: for they [knew] not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the Lord hath given you to eat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We know that manna was even more unstable than bread, because it grew worms if left &quot;until the morning&quot; (Ex 16:20). I'm not sure what this has to do with &quot;Spider-Man's *control*&quot;, except that after Moses gave manna to his followers and taught them how to gather it, they were thirsty and hungry and murmured against him - and they still had to eat it for forty years. Did they all become superheroes before they got to the promised land? Anyway, Moses is the best connection I could make between *bread* and Spider-Man. Also, *control* may be connected with *wisdom*, the corresponding attribute in Ecclesiastes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Besides the five gifts, there are a few other hints at Ecclesiastes 9:11 in the song. In fact the entire rest of this verse appears in one form or another in the song's lyrics. Ecclesiastes 9:11 mentions &quot;time and chance&quot;: &quot;time&quot; becomes &quot;somebody I can miss&quot;; and &quot;chance&quot; becomes &quot;risk&quot;. The phrase &quot;I returned, and saw under the sun&quot; becomes &quot;The moon and its eclipse&quot;. The song's words &quot;moon and its eclipse&quot; originally suggested a lunar eclipse to me, but with the help of the Ecclesiastes correspondence, I can now see that the song is talking about a solar eclipse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In answer to the original question, I think the song is not so much a reference to specific super-heroes and their stories, but to five super-hero traits that the artist was seeking to possess as a child. For whatever reason, the song's list of five traits seems to mirror the list of five traits in Ecclesiastes 9:11.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28384" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10280" RevisionGUID="db873fca-4902-4e6d-a580-0b9df14aaaba" CreationDate="2021-12-27T11:16:23.550" UserId="8851" Comment="emphasis etc" Text="I am a fan of this song, and this question. After thinking about the song for some time, I was enabled to gain some impressions of my own, and I felt inclined to share them here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The song seems to be about a child's becoming or wanting to become a superhero. To me it says that the author of the lyrics found a loving protector, the female character in the song, before he found stardom. I am not sure if &quot;she&quot; is his mother, or Jesus, or a special woman in his life, or an alien entity. But I think the song expresses a child's feelings of unworthiness about receiving the promised gifts, and it assuages his concerns about the risks he will confront on the path that he is being shown.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The lyrics seem intentionally childish. I think this can be heard in the opening line, &quot;I've been reading books of old&quot; - in the contrast between the casual &quot;I've been reading&quot; and the archaic &quot;books of old&quot;. Chris Martin is not, as others have pointed out, trying to prove himself as a classicist here - he studied [under Jeremy Bentham](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_College_London). If it sounds like an imaginative child is putting his own spin on the myths, then we should at least credit the musician's mythical associations for setting a tone that is consistent with the rest of the song. There is even an animated [official lyric video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FM7MFYoylVs) which shows a child in a spaceship.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the same time, it seems possible to synthesize the other answers into an interpretation that refers to something more mature and more specific, and something which may even be deliberate on the part of the artist.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Consider that Achilles was known for being *swift*, and Hercules for being *strong*. The narrator is worried that he won't be swift or strong enough to make his dreams come true. But his benefactor replies that she's not looking for someone who is already a hero. Maybe she then reassured the narrator with the verse from the Bible that says: &quot;the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong&quot;. The full text of that verse is:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Ecclesiastes 9:11** I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The verse lists five superhero gifts and traits:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. race / swift&#xD;&#xA;2. battle / strong&#xD;&#xA;3. bread / wise&#xD;&#xA;4. riches / understanding&#xD;&#xA;5. favour / skill&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The song lists five superheroes, and things they have:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Achilles / gold&#xD;&#xA;2. Hercules / gifts&#xD;&#xA;3. Spider-Man / control&#xD;&#xA;4. Batman / fists&#xD;&#xA;5. Superman / suit&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As I already noted, there is a good correspondence between the first two items in each list. For example, although it would sound just as well to switch Achilles and Hercules in the song, this would break the correspondence to Ecclesiastes: Hercules is known for being strong, not swift; it is Achilles who is called &quot;swift-footed&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, of the modern superheroes, Batman (number 4) is best known for being wealthy (&quot;riches&quot;) in his day-job identity, and he is the next easiest to cross off the list.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the last item, number 5: Superman may have just as much &quot;favour&quot; as the other heroes, but this depends on his suit, which serves to insulate his superhero identity from that of the timid journalist Clark Kent. You wouldn't want to try to rescue someone while dressed like Clark Kent! It could have been Spider-Man's suit, or Batman's, but we can see that wearing a suit brings (worldly) favor, and making a suit requires skill. Certainly a suit is more apt to win favor than the &quot;race&quot; or the &quot;battle&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Incidentally, creating a metaphorical &quot;superhero suit&quot; might be an essential skill for a pop star, who must also maintain two separate identities - the reclusive intellectual composer and lyricist, versus the &quot;superhero&quot; stage performer. Some of the symbolism that we're trying to analyze here might be like a costume that creates the lyricist's public persona: something that covers the details of his private life, without pretending there isn't a human beneath it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The hardest connection for me to explain is Spider-Man with *bread* and *wisdom*. The best explanation I could think of, is that Spider-Man's abilities are due to an [&quot;unstable performance-enhancing chemical&quot;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider-Man_(2002_film)); in fact he is the only hero in the song's list whose abilities are said to come from an ingested (injected?) substance; and bread is the only edible item on the Ecclesiastes list. Moreover, bread is perishable and therefore &quot;unstable&quot;. Finally, in the Bible there is a description of a mysterious unstable substance that Moses called &quot;bread&quot; but his followers called &quot;*manna*&quot; or &quot;What is it?&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Exodus 16:15** And when the children of Israel saw it, they said one to another, It is manna: for they [knew] not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the Lord hath given you to eat.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We know that manna was even more unstable than bread, because it grew worms if left &quot;until the morning&quot; (Ex 16:20). I'm not sure what this has to do with &quot;Spider-Man's *control*&quot;, except that after Moses gave manna to his followers and taught them how to gather it, they were thirsty and hungry and murmured against him - and they still had to eat it for forty years. Did they all become superheroes before they got to the promised land? Anyway, Moses is the best connection I could make between *bread* and Spider-Man. Also, *control* may be connected with *wisdom*, the corresponding attribute in Ecclesiastes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Besides the five gifts, there are a few other hints at Ecclesiastes 9:11 in the song. In fact the entire rest of this verse appears in one form or another in the song's lyrics. Ecclesiastes 9:11 mentions &quot;time and chance&quot;: &quot;time&quot; becomes &quot;somebody I can miss&quot;; and &quot;chance&quot; becomes &quot;risk&quot;. The phrase &quot;I returned, and saw under the sun&quot; becomes &quot;The moon and its eclipse&quot;. The song's words &quot;moon and its eclipse&quot; originally suggested a lunar eclipse to me, but with the help of the Ecclesiastes correspondence, I can now see that the song is talking about a solar eclipse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In answer to the original question, I think the song is not so much a reference to specific *super-heroes* and their stories, but to five *super-hero traits* that the artist was seeking to possess as a child. For whatever reason, the song's list of five traits seems to mirror the list of five traits in Ecclesiastes 9:11.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28385" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10281" RevisionGUID="8ecfac45-4adb-4834-a62e-9e40818ca662" CreationDate="2021-12-28T09:50:50.047" UserId="2682" Text="The American Surety Building (also known as the Bank of Tokyo Building) is at 100 Broadway in Manhattan, in New York City. The building's façade is designed to look like the front of a Classical Greek temple (in similarity to a lot of other architectural art in the United States of America), with an [entablature](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entablature) supported by eight columns standing as tall as the real, full building's lowest two storeys. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![100Broadway][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*By [Epicgenius](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Financial_District_Sep_2020_04.jpg), 05 September 2020*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The entablature forms the front part of the floor of the actual building's third level, and atop the entablature, standing as tall as this level's height, are eight women sculpted very much in the style of Ancient Greek statuary, each woman above one of the columns. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unlike the sculptures of maidens who form very regular repeating patterns in the so-called Porch of the Caryatids in the Erekhtheion [Erechtheum] on the Athenian Acropolis, and in the Forum of Augustus in Rome, certain of the women on the American Surety Building appear to possess unique attributes, implying to me that they represent something more specific than mere replicated ornamentation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have noticed, however, that the four on the one side seem to be laterally inverse (mirrored) copies of the four on the other side, which feature then does in fact form something of a repeating pattern. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![100 Broadway - 8 Women][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Own Photo, 03 August 2021*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At first glance at the sculptures, I simply presumed them to be the nine Muses, but in addition to half of them being a mirror of the other four, there is the fact that there *are* only *eight* of them. If they were the Muses, therefore, why is the ninth one absent? Or rather, who else might these ladies be? (Perhaps indeed just a decorative trope?)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![100 Broadway - 4 Women][3]][3]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*By [David Pirmann](https://www.flickr.com/photos/dpirmann/35575376956/), 28 June 2017*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These, in the immediately preceding image above, are the four left hand-side women, while the four on the right hand-side (out of frame) are striking the same poses in the inverse, so that in total: two of them are holding branches; another two holding up mirrors(?); two more holding up something else I'm unable to identify (palm fronds?); and with the last two wielding spears.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![100 Broadway Eagle Sword][4]][4]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Own Photo, 03 August 2021*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Flanking the women, there are also four eagles, two to each side of them, and each bird perched on a down-turned sword, with a shield-like circle behind it. I assume that the symbolism here is modern and American, or at least non-Greek, without any ancient mythical Greco-Roman significance. But that's pure guesswork on my part. (Maybe they genuinely have something substantial to do with the eight figures.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Either way, what are these creatures about? Might they, together with the anthropomorphic art pieces, be simply decor, or do they carry some deeper meaning? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/utk4k.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Dk5BE.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/dH4Vj.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/SKRnx.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28387" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10281" RevisionGUID="8ecfac45-4adb-4834-a62e-9e40818ca662" CreationDate="2021-12-28T09:50:50.047" UserId="2682" Text="Is it the Muses depicted on the façade of 100 Broadway, Manhattan?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28388" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10281" RevisionGUID="8ecfac45-4adb-4834-a62e-9e40818ca662" CreationDate="2021-12-28T09:50:50.047" UserId="2682" Text="|greek|roman|goddesses|modern-influence|muses|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28389" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10282" RevisionGUID="8ac09e24-7304-438f-abd1-ba031d17d0ab" CreationDate="2021-12-28T12:40:55.407" UserId="3208" Text="There are many descriptions of Mayan religious practices involving human sacrifice. For example, [the Wikipedia has a long article on bloodletting and human sacrifice by the Mayans][1]. However, these treatments do not clearly explain the purported purpose of these practices.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On one hand, sometimes it is said that the purpose was to **propitiate the gods**. In this explanation, the gods will be angry if the sacrifice is not made and will punish the men who fail to make the sacrifices by visiting hardships on them. So, hardships might be pestilence or famine, for example.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the other hand, the sacrifices are said to **nurture the gods**. In this explanation, the purpose would be to feed or support the gods in some way. The idea is that if the gods are not fed, then they would waste away. For example, the sun might be imagined to darken or even disappear altogether unless it is fed. Or likewise, if the rain god is not fed then he might lose his vigor and rain would become less frequent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A third possible explanation is that the sacrifices would **please the gods** who would then favor the followers with good fortune. This is the inverse of propitiation. Instead of the gods becoming angry and punishing the humans, the gods are pleased and reward them with imagined benefits such as good crops and health, or other benefits such as the ability to foretell the future.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any clear and definite indication of which of these (or other possible) rationales for human sacrifice motivated the ancient Mayans?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice_in_Maya_culture" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28391" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10282" RevisionGUID="8ac09e24-7304-438f-abd1-ba031d17d0ab" CreationDate="2021-12-28T12:40:55.407" UserId="3208" Text="What did the Mayans hope to accomplish from ritual sacrifice?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28392" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10282" RevisionGUID="8ac09e24-7304-438f-abd1-ba031d17d0ab" CreationDate="2021-12-28T12:40:55.407" UserId="3208" Text="|sacrifice|maya|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28393" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10283" RevisionGUID="5ba683a5-e146-4d15-b703-de0e95261ec1" CreationDate="2021-12-28T17:42:01.703" UserId="398" Text="The [wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Surety_Building) on the building actually covers it:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The third-story windows above the portico are flanked by six classical figures designed by J. Massey Rhind. Two more figures, in the same style as Rhind's originals, were added in the expansion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The citation to this is the actual Landmarks Preservation Commission report on the building, which only refers to the statues as &quot;classical figures&quot; without giving any reference to their mythological character.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Given that they're eight figures from an original six and official reports do not mention any names attached to them (aside from the sculpture), indeed you're liking correct that they're merely adornment." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28395" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10281" RevisionGUID="6adab4f6-6bb5-48ba-b59a-e4972f4c6aab" CreationDate="2021-12-28T17:53:34.987" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected some details" Text="The American Surety Building (also known as the Bank of Tokyo Building) is at 100 Broadway in Manhattan, in New York City. The building's façade is designed to look like the front of a Classical Greek temple (in similarity to a lot of other architectural art in the United States of America), with an [entablature](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entablature) supported by eight columns standing as tall as the real, full building's lowest two storeys. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![100Broadway][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*By [Epicgenius](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Financial_District_Sep_2020_04.jpg), 05 September 2020*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The entablature forms the front part of the floor of the actual building's third level, and atop the entablature, standing as tall as this level's height, are eight women sculpted very much in the style of Ancient Greek statuary, each woman above one of the columns. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unlike the sculptures of maidens who form very regular repeating patterns in the so-called Porch of the Caryatids in the Erekhtheion [Erechtheum] on the Athenian Acropolis, and in the Forum of Augustus in Rome, certain of the women on the American Surety Building appear to possess unique attributes, implying to me that they represent something more specific than mere replicated ornamentation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have noticed, however, that the two leftmost women seem to be exact copies of the two rightmost ones. The middle four seem be more unique, each striking a different pose and bearing a distinct attribute.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![100 Broadway - 8 Women][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Own Photo, 03 August 2021*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At first glance at the sculptures, I simply presumed them to be the nine Muses, but in addition to half of them duplicating each other, there is the fact that there *are* only *eight* of them. If they are the Muses, therefore, why is the ninth one absent? Or rather, who else might these ladies be? (Perhaps indeed just a decorative trope?)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![100 Broadway - 4 Women][3]][3]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*By [David Pirmann](https://www.flickr.com/photos/dpirmann/35575376956/), 28 June 2017*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These, in the immediately preceding image above, are the four left hand-side women. The one at the far left of the image, holding a branch, has a copy of herself to the far right of the façade (out of frame). The one next to her, upholding what looks like a mirror also has a copy of herself as the sculpture second from the right end of the group (also out of frame).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To the far right of this frame, the fourth woman wields a spear. I am unable to identify what the third woman, next to her is holding (a palm frond?), second from right (of the image).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Next to the spear-woman, out of shot, her next companion seems merely to be holding up some folds of her clothes, while the next one over (pictured below) is holding something roughly cylindrical in her hand (a huge nail?).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![100 Broadway - 6th Woman][4]][4]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Own Photo, 03 August 2021*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Flanking the women, there are also four eagles, two to each side of them, and each bird perched on a down-turned sword, with a shield-like circle behind it. I assume that the symbolism here is modern and American, or at least non-Greek, without any ancient mythical Greco-Roman significance. But that's pure guesswork on my part. (Maybe they genuinely have something substantial to do with the eight figures.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![100 Broadway Eagle Sword][5]][5]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Own Photo, 03 August 2021*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Either way, what are these creatures about? Might they, together with the anthropomorphic art pieces, be simply decor, or do they carry some deeper meaning? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/utk4k.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Dk5BE.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/dH4Vj.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/R2Mfy.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/SKRnx.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28396" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10284" RevisionGUID="985c4300-eaba-4b15-8e44-7dd88d888a02" CreationDate="2021-12-29T11:37:49.643" UserId="2682" Text="The International Building, part of the Rockefeller Center, stands in Midtown Manhattan. In the building's courtyard, at Number 630 on Fifth Avenue, its entrance is guarded by the dark and imposing 45-ft-tall bronze statue of a character from Greek mythology: the Titan Atlas, his arms outstretched to bear up the weight of the sky, which takes the form of an [armillary sphere](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armillary_sphere).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Rockefeller Atlas][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Own Photo, 03 August 2021*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Earlier this year I was able to meet this *Atlas* in person for the first time, and I was surprised to discover that, for nearly a century now, since he came to 5th Avenue, he's been staring hard at the vastly humongous façade, [across the avenue from him](https://cdn.sanity.io/images/bs9rmafh/main/d8f3ca8b3bcf560f26c2f9d2423fa12cd9b8eeed-2560x1364.jpg?w=1600&amp;h=853&amp;fit=crop&amp;fm=webp), of St Patrick's Cathedral. While I'd seen many photographs of the Atlas statue prior to my visit, I'm not sure that I'd ever heard of this church building before, which Wikipedia describes as &quot;the largest Gothic Revival Catholic cathedral in North America.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![St Patrick's Cathedral][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[*St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York City*](https://www.publicdomainpictures.net/en/view-image.php?image=272872&amp;picture=st-patrick-cathedral-in-nyc), by Petr Kratochvil&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Br. Charles Marie Rooney, on the Dominicana Journal blog, calls it &quot;the mother church of the Archdiocese of New York and the most-visited Catholic cathedral in the United States.&quot; It is pretty hard to miss while standing next to *Atlas*, and, for my part, my attention couldn't help but be drawn to it. Part of the reason for this is especially because the statue seems to be placed, quite on purpose, directly in line with the church's colossal front door.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Atlas in Front of St Patrick's - Night][3]][3]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[*Atlas Statue in Front of St. Patrick’s Cathedral (New York City)*](https://theroaminglama.wordpress.com/2016/06/08/atlas-statue-in-front-of-st-patricks-cathedral-new-york-city/), by Justin, TheRoamingLama, 08 June 2016&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the case of photographing the statue, even if one wanted to ignore the cathedral, it can't be done since, while standing behind the *Atlas*, a natural symmetrical design is formed by the church's spires, which end up flanking the Titan's background. The design choices seem so deliberate that I half expected to learn that the two structures were put up collaboratively. Not so, however. Neither the International Building nor its *Atlas* existed until almost sixty years after the church came up in 1878. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But that doesn't have to mean that there's absolutely no correlation between the two. And I find it extremely difficult to envision artists and architects of the calibre of Lee Lawrie and Rene Chambellan (who created the *Atlas* and several other works both at the Rockefeller Center and in various other parts of the country) failing to anticipate the creation of a story between the Titan and the cathedral as they were installing their project, even if they did not necessarily have one in mind themselves (also an improbable proposition as far as I'm concerned).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Surprisingly, though, beyond the simple description of the fact of the two structures' juxtaposition, commentary appears to be fairly rare from what I can find. Andy McCarthy, on his New York Public Library blog post [&quot;The Titan and the Dictator&quot;](https://www.nypl.org/blog/2017/02/02/titan-and-dictator), says, poignantly, of the Titan: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One hulking, mountainous leg of Atlas staggers off the pedestal, while&#xD;&#xA;&gt; no promise of relief is yielded by the tiny bronze holymen and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; holywomen carved into the doors of St. Patrick’s Cathedral across&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Fifth Avenue.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Rockefeller Atlas Midshot][4]][4]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Own Photo, 03 August 2021*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The majority of his blog article, however, is dedicated to refuting the claim in which:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It has been said, written, and said again, that in 1937, New&#xD;&#xA;&gt; York’s Italian community protested the statue of Atlas in Rockefeller&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Center because the face of the Titan bore too much resemblance to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Benito Mussolini, the fascist ruler of Italy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Br. Rooney's Dominica Journal post, [&quot;Atlas and the Infant&quot;](https://www.dominicanajournal.org/atlas-and-the-infant/#), goes on to say:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; At first glance, the placement of *Atlas*—an obvious artifact of pagan&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mythology—straight across from the Cathedral could be read as a kind&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of secular imposition upon sacred ground. Atlas, after all, was built&#xD;&#xA;&gt; nearly sixty years after the completion of St. Patrick’s, at the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; height of the modern skyscraper boom, and as a kind of ode to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; majesty and strength of man.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rooney adds that as Atlas glares towards the church, when its main doors are open, his positioning gives him [a clear view](https://www.flickr.com/photos/bobbyzny/23799817780/) all the way into the heart of the sanctuary. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; About 80 yards in front of *Atlas*, directly behind the Cathedral’s&#xD;&#xA;&gt; high altar, is a small statue of the Christ Child, bearing a gentle&#xD;&#xA;&gt; visage and standing with an orb in his hand.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The article then describes this placement of the two figures as a sort of face-off in which it is insinuated that Atlas believes himself to pose some kind of threat, while [the Holy Child](https://www.flickr.com/photos/arekev/38187123176) rather pities the massive Titan who &quot;teeters under the cumbersome weight of the heavens.&quot; But the Child, meanwhile, &quot;holds the cosmos in his palm&quot;, in a show of &quot;divine power before which both we and *Atlas* can only tremble in awed obeisance.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't know about Atlas's obeisance in this case, but on that point Br. Rooney might have something going. I take note of the fact Atlas is not actually giving the inside of the sanctuary a thousand-yard stare, rather his glance seems to be cast down more at the passersby on the street and the sidewalk on his own side of the avenue, almost in some sort of deference so as not look dead-pan towards St Patrick's, lest this offer any offence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Rockefeller Atlas Face][5]][5]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Andy McCarthy, New York Public Library, 02 February 2017*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, going by the ancient myth, Atlas is only grimacing because he's taken up his current position under the most extreme duress. And specifically in the statue, the base of his neck is bearing the brunt of the celestial sphere's weight. More in line with the centuries-long tradition (mostly in Europe) of interpreting Greco-Roman myths in Christian terms, Elisabeth Hammer has labelled [her photograph of the two structures](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:St_Patrick%27s_Cathedral,_NYC,_with_immeasurable_weight_bearing_,_Christ-like_Atlas_in_front.jpg) as &quot;St Patrick's Cathedral, NYC, with immeasurable weight bearing, Christ-like Atlas in front&quot; (2018) on Wikimedia Commons, and tagged it with the following description:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Atlas, condemned by Zeus, to bear forever the weight of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; world, is a great symbol for Christ, dying on the cross for us, who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; always identified with the weak, the poor, the sick, the oppressed,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thus making himself &quot;one&quot; with human suffering. But stopping not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; there, he gave us hope and promise for redemption and salvation&#xD;&#xA;&gt; through his resurrection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like the Dominica Journal, a different church-focused blog, Coptic Voice US, interprets the juxtaposition between Atlas and St Patrick's as symbolically antagonistic. In the 2018 blog post &quot;St. Pat’s and the Atlas: My Thoughts on the Opposing Illustrations of Truth and Strength&quot; its author says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Leaving Greek mythology aside, I would argue that Rockefeller Center,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; along with the Atlas, are the premier symbols of wealth, power, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; material prosperity... &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; You have two completely opposing philosophies facing each other across&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 5th Ave. On one side there is a beautiful Church: a symbol of hope and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; comfort for the poor and needy, a place with open doors to a large&#xD;&#xA;&gt; parish from all walks of life. On the other side lies a grand bronze&#xD;&#xA;&gt; statue that embodies power, and dominion; it sits as a symbol that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; resonates with the wealthy and powerful.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't know how fair that assessment is. According to Wikipedia, the Atlas statue has &quot;been appropriated as a ratio of the Objectivist movement and has been associated with Ayn Rand's novel *Atlas Shrugged* (1957)&quot;, which may perhaps make the cut for &quot;resonating with wealth and power.&quot; But would Lawrie and Chambellan, and/or whoever else was involved enough in placing the *Atlas* where it has stood for almost ninety years now, have seen things more like the Dominica Journal and Coptic Voice US, or rather more like Elisabeth Hammer?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Is *Atlas* defiantly challenging St Patrick's Cathedral somehow, or does he arrive there as a less sinister complement to the building?** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Some Notes**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[The Rockefeller Center website](https://www.rockefellercenter.com/attractions/rockefeller-center-tour/) says nothing about this [while mentioning him](https://www.rockefellercenter.com/magazine/arts-culture/just-look-up-skygazing-viewpoints-at-rockefeller-center/). It is way easier to find commentary on his little brother *Prometheus*, who appears in a lively yellow bronze overlooking the skating rink in the Center's Lower Plaza, in the next building over, across W 50th Street, having been put there by the sculptor Paul Manship three years before Atlas's introduction to 5th Avenue.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Rockefeller Center Prometheus][6]][6]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[*Rockefeller Center Prometheus*](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rockefeller_Center_Prometheus.jpg), by Balon Greyjoy, 26 December 2013&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;At the southern edge of the island of Manhattan, in the Financial District, a colonnade capped with eight women of Classical Greek style stands as the entrance to the Bank of Tokyo Building on Broadway (in [a different Question](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/10281/2682)) overlooking Trinity Churchyard in what appears to be rather benign aspect. Would this be comparable to that?&lt;/sub&gt;       &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/XwFSe.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Q24IW.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/QIJQx.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/4ERSC.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/nR09h.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/iIU3Y.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28398" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10284" RevisionGUID="985c4300-eaba-4b15-8e44-7dd88d888a02" CreationDate="2021-12-29T11:37:49.643" UserId="2682" Text="Is there a deliberate symbolic relationship between the Rockefeller Plaza Atlas statue and St Patrick's Cathedral?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28399" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10284" RevisionGUID="985c4300-eaba-4b15-8e44-7dd88d888a02" CreationDate="2021-12-29T11:37:49.643" UserId="2682" Text="|greek|christianity|titans|modern-influence|metaphors|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28400" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10285" RevisionGUID="9ae068b5-8a8a-42a0-8c96-088b036ed803" CreationDate="2021-12-30T02:33:57.783" UserId="2682" Text="On top of a pillar that was about two or three storeys tall, I once saw this sculpture of a woman looking out toward the woods of Devil's Peak on Table Mountain in the City of Cape Town. This being nearly a decade ago, I'm somewhat fuzzy on the particulars, but I think the pillar was somewhere behind the Chancellor Oppenheimer Library at a spot close to Madiba Circle. Whatever the exact coordinates are, this is (or was) on the Upper Campus grounds of the University of Cape Town.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Upper Campus Pillar Lady][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As with a sculpture group on 100 Broadway, New York, NY, in [another Question](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/10281/2682), I was inclined to expect that this is one of the nine Muses from Greek mythology. The style is not Classical Greek like with the sculptures in New York, but certain elements seem to allude to Ancient Greek statuary, in particular how the woman appears to be a [caryatid](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caryatid) who has separated from a colonnade whose only remaining portion currently is the column on which she stands and, on her head, the edge of roof that she might once have supported.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Albright-Knox Art Gallery Caryatids][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Buffalo Architecture and History website interprets these caryatids (above), sculpted by Augustus Saint-Gaudens, and appearing at the Albright-Knox Art Gallery in Buffalo, NY, as four of the Muses. The solitary stylite-like figure on UCT's Upper Campus is carrying a tablet (or something similar to one) in each hand, the one in her right looking somewhat like a little house. The second-leftmost of Saint-Gaudens' art gallery Muses is holding up a column capital in her right hand, and she is entitled *Architecture*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The claim is widespread online, with no clear source that I could trace, that Thaleia, the Muse of comedy and bucolic poetry, is somehow also responsible for architecture, among a few other sciences. Maybe both Saint-Gaudens' *Architecture*, and the Upper Campus pillar-top, are Thaleia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One reason not to expect the Upper Campus sculpture to be a Muse is that none of these nine sisters seems to ever appear holding two objects in each hand quite so symmetrically, but of course an artist may well take license by changing up such aspects of representation. The point, nonetheless, is that this makes it that much more difficult to identify the figure along the aforementioned lines, in the absence of further detail on the sculpture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm also fascinated by the chameleon poised at the very top of the statue, hanging out on the piece of roof with which the woman is crowned. Then there's an even bigger chameleon making its way up the pillar towards the woman. What's up with them? Maybe the sculpture is not trying to reference Greco-Roman myth and, with this being in South Africa, perhaps is rather inspired by local legend and folklore. I'd be even more stumped as to her identity if that's the case.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My next best guess would be to assume that she's merely some sort of allegory, as there often tend to be in buildings of government institutions and other organisations, especially Western or Westernised ones. Maybe the woman is a personification of the City of Cape Town, or of the university. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The design style looks a touch like Lawrence Tenney Stevens' 1936 sculpture personifying the flag of Texas under Spanish rule, in Dallas's Fair Park. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Texas Spain, Fair Park, Dallas][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This lady undoubtedly is holding up a miniature building. I have no idea how old the Upper Campus art-piece is, nor who the artist is. (I did look up whether Stevens might have done any work in South Africa but, from what I could see, he never went there.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sidenote**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;The subject of statuary on UCT's Upper Campus has been a matter of fiery controversy since 2015, when a decades-long series of student protests aimed at the removal of a statue commemorating Cecil Rhodes reached its crescendo. This 1934 statue sat surveying Middle and Lower Campuses, and the city beyond, from its perch at the foot of a large flight of stairs leading in the direction of the library and the pillar lady that I'm asking about.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;All my current/recent searches involving statues or sculptures in connection with Upper Campus specifically, or UCT in general, invariably led to this topic. I do not think the pillar lady has any connection to the Rhodes monument or any of the furor surrounding that, except in terms of them both being sculptures planted on the same premises. (I might be wrong about that too, though.)&lt;/sub&gt;             &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/UM3pF.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MydtB.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/JSzvg.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28402" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10285" RevisionGUID="9ae068b5-8a8a-42a0-8c96-088b036ed803" CreationDate="2021-12-30T02:33:57.783" UserId="2682" Text="Who is the woman portrayed atop a pillar at UCT's Upper Campus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28403" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10285" RevisionGUID="9ae068b5-8a8a-42a0-8c96-088b036ed803" CreationDate="2021-12-30T02:33:57.783" UserId="2682" Text="|greek|modern-influence|africa|metaphors|muses|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28404" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10285" RevisionGUID="80564aa7-3c03-4aae-96a8-f8fed8af9909" CreationDate="2021-12-30T02:59:03.540" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="On top of a pillar that was about two or three storeys tall, I once saw this sculpture of a woman looking out toward the woods of Devil's Peak on Table Mountain in the City of Cape Town. This being nearly a decade ago, I'm somewhat fuzzy on the particulars, but I think the pillar was somewhere behind the Chancellor Oppenheimer Library at a spot close to Madiba Circle. Whatever the exact coordinates are, this is (or was) on the Upper Campus grounds of the University of Cape Town.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Upper Campus Pillar Lady][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As with a sculpture group on 100 Broadway, New York, NY, in [another Question](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/10281/2682), I was inclined to expect that this is one of the nine Muses from Greek mythology. The style is not Classical Greek like with the sculptures in New York, but certain elements seem to allude to Ancient Greek statuary, in particular how the woman appears to be a [caryatid](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caryatid) who has separated from a colonnade whose only remaining portion currently is the column on which she stands and, on her head, the edge of roof that she might once have supported.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Albright-Knox Art Gallery Caryatids][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Buffalo Architecture and History website interprets these caryatids (above), sculpted by Augustus Saint-Gaudens, and appearing at the Albright-Knox Art Gallery in Buffalo, NY, as four of the Muses. The solitary stylite-like figure on UCT's Upper Campus is carrying a tablet (or something similar to one) in each hand, the one in her right looking somewhat like a little house. The second-leftmost of Saint-Gaudens' art gallery Muses is holding up a column capital in her right hand, and she is entitled *Architecture*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The claim is widespread online, with no clear source that I could trace, that Thaleia, the Muse of comedy and bucolic poetry, is somehow also responsible for architecture, among a few other sciences. Maybe both Saint-Gaudens' *Architecture*, and the Upper Campus pillar-top, are Thaleia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One reason not to expect the Upper Campus sculpture to be a Muse is that none of these nine sisters seems to ever appear holding two objects, one in either hand, quite so symmetrically, but of course an artist may well take license by changing up such aspects of representation. The point, nonetheless, is that this makes it that much more difficult to identify the figure along the aforementioned lines, in the absence of further detail on the sculpture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm also fascinated by the chameleon poised at the very top of the statue, hanging out on the piece of roof with which the woman is crowned. Then there's an even bigger chameleon making its way up the pillar towards the woman. What's up with them? Maybe the sculpture is not trying to reference Greco-Roman myth and, with this being in South Africa, perhaps is rather inspired by local legend and folklore. I'd be even more stumped as to her identity if that's the case.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My next best guess would be to assume that she's merely some sort of allegory, as there often tend to be in buildings of government institutions and other organisations, especially Western or Westernised ones. Maybe the woman is a personification of the City of Cape Town, or of the university. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The design style looks a touch like Lawrence Tenney Stevens' 1936 sculpture personifying the flag of Texas under Spanish rule, in Dallas's Fair Park. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Texas Spain, Fair Park, Dallas][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This lady undoubtedly is holding up a miniature building. I have no idea how old the Upper Campus art-piece is, nor who the artist is. (I did look up whether Stevens might have done any work in South Africa but, from what I could see, he never went there.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sidenote**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;The subject of statuary on UCT's Upper Campus has been a matter of fiery controversy since 2015, when a decades-long series of student protests aimed at the removal of a statue commemorating Cecil Rhodes reached its crescendo. This 1934 statue sat surveying Middle and Lower Campuses, and the city beyond, from its perch at the foot of a large flight of stairs leading in the direction of the library and the pillar lady that I'm asking about.&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;All my current/recent searches involving statues or sculptures in connection with Upper Campus specifically, or UCT in general, invariably led to this topic. I do not think the pillar lady has any connection to the Rhodes monument or any of the furor surrounding that, except in terms of them both being sculptures planted on the same premises. (I might be wrong about that too, though.)&lt;/sub&gt;             &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/UM3pF.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MydtB.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/JSzvg.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28405" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10286" RevisionGUID="3e0b4532-b579-41c6-a706-78d1a67b8e32" CreationDate="2021-12-31T13:01:11.340" UserId="8873" Text="Mostly in Greek mythology, humans swear on Olympian gods such as Zeus while gods swear on the river Styx(Iliad 14.271).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Then, is there any case where humans swear on the river Styx instead of Olympian gods?**&#xD;&#xA;If not, why they didn't do that?&#xD;&#xA;Considering that the gods adopt Styx as a witness, it would be more powerful oath when humans use Styx as a witness too.&#xD;&#xA;Or is it impossible for humans to swear on the River Styx in Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28407" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10286" RevisionGUID="3e0b4532-b579-41c6-a706-78d1a67b8e32" CreationDate="2021-12-31T13:01:11.340" UserId="8873" Text="Is there any case in Greek mythology where humans swear on the river Styx?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28408" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10286" RevisionGUID="3e0b4532-b579-41c6-a706-78d1a67b8e32" CreationDate="2021-12-31T13:01:11.340" UserId="8873" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28411" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5112" RevisionGUID="6dbe93e1-2c97-4f6a-b1b6-7cdc3b7b793f" CreationDate="2022-01-01T10:39:09.300" UserId="5294" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28416" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="10109" RevisionGUID="df956121-233e-4f78-a19e-e1f9cd895c91" CreationDate="2022-01-04T11:04:05.327" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="28417" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10109" RevisionGUID="daea8ea2-f19f-477a-8a36-ccc4a3932506" CreationDate="2022-01-05T10:06:45.583" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags; edited title" Text="Why does the Greek Silenus and the Egyptian Bes look similar?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28418" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="10109" RevisionGUID="daea8ea2-f19f-477a-8a36-ccc4a3932506" CreationDate="2022-01-05T10:06:45.583" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags; edited title" Text="|greek|comparative|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28419" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6480" RevisionGUID="e8df5513-fca8-4757-a5e1-e28969497cb7" CreationDate="2022-01-05T15:04:40.413" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="28424" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10290" RevisionGUID="5846ff57-2867-4869-be93-f3053aeb2354" CreationDate="2022-01-06T16:51:05.610" UserId="7106" Text="Pandora was created from the Greek gods and offered to Epimetheus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pandora is referred to as the first woman. It is to me unclear if she is even human. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the problem with this answer (if referring to human female) is that it is related to other myths that do not fit. Does that mean that Pandora and Epimetheus gave birth to the rest of humanity? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Pandora opens the box, plagues and evils of all kind appear but only to other creatures or to other humans? If it is the later, are those humans descended from Pandora?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A divine deluge to wipe humanity is set to happen some time after Pandora's myth, but her daughter Pyrrha survives the deluge, how many humans could there be then?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From what I understand Hesiod tells different types of &quot;men&quot; came in different ages and somehow, the deluge would be the end of the Bronze age. However this implies that either Pandora a) there were no women before... b) Pandora as &quot;first woman&quot; is just no sense, or c) that something else is meant. If (c) what was meant?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Edit: I found also this myth about Prometheus giving life to man from mud. Is this related? Was it just male humans?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28426" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10290" RevisionGUID="5846ff57-2867-4869-be93-f3053aeb2354" CreationDate="2022-01-06T16:51:05.610" UserId="7106" Text="In what sense is Pandora the first woman?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28427" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10290" RevisionGUID="5846ff57-2867-4869-be93-f3053aeb2354" CreationDate="2022-01-06T16:51:05.610" UserId="7106" Text="|greek|flood-myth|pandora|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28428" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10290" RevisionGUID="589f1bc4-1d3a-41f0-92f0-35ab461e7415" CreationDate="2022-01-06T17:03:17.057" UserId="7106" Comment="added 127 characters in body" Text="Pandora was created from the Greek gods and offered to Epimetheus, closely related to the myth of Prometheus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pandora is referred to as the first woman. It is to me unclear if she is even human. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the problem with this answer (if referring to human female) is that it is related to other myths that do not fit. Does that mean that Pandora and Epimetheus gave birth to the rest of humanity? But what about Prometheus stealing the fire to give to humans is this after Pandora?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Pandora opens the box, plagues and evils of all kind appear but only to other creatures or to other humans? If it is the later, are those humans descended from Pandora?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A divine deluge to wipe humanity is set to happen some time after Pandora's myth, but her daughter Pyrrha survives the deluge, how many humans could there be then?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From what I understand Hesiod tells different types of &quot;men&quot; came in different ages and somehow, the deluge would be the end of the Bronze age. However this implies that either Pandora a) there were no women before... b) Pandora as &quot;first woman&quot; is just no sense, or c) that something else is meant. If (c) what was meant?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Edit: I found also this myth about Prometheus giving life to man from mud. Is this related? Was it just male humans?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28431" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5857" RevisionGUID="09bbb071-c68d-41f8-b160-0b925c3fdf91" CreationDate="2022-01-07T04:10:46.073" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="28432" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="10290" RevisionGUID="a44a84a7-55c3-4c6a-8d51-6d7a475b05b5" CreationDate="2022-01-07T10:25:31.710" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|pandora|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28433" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10290" RevisionGUID="038e4e8d-4429-4226-99c2-fac166111c9f" CreationDate="2022-01-07T10:40:18.103" UserId="7106" Comment="added 52 characters in body" Text="Pandora was created from the Greek gods and offered to Epimetheus, closely related to the myth of Prometheus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pandora is referred to as the first woman. It is to me unclear if she is even human. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the problem with this answer (if referring to human female) is that it is related to other myths that do not fit. Does that mean that Pandora and Epimetheus gave birth to the rest of humanity? But what about Prometheus stealing the fire to give to humans is this after Pandora?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Pandora opens the box, plagues and evils of all kind appear but only to other creatures or to other humans? If it is the later, are those humans descended from Pandora?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A divine deluge to wipe humanity is set to happen some time after Pandora's myth, but her daughter Pyrrha survives the deluge, how many humans could there be then?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From what I understand Hesiod tells different types of &quot;men&quot; came in different ages and somehow, the deluge would be the end of the Bronze age. However this implies that either Pandora a) there were no women before... b) Pandora as &quot;first woman&quot; is just no sense, or c) that something else is meant. If (c) what was meant?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I found also this myth about Prometheus giving life to man from mud. Is this related? Was it just male humans?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All that said, let me focus this post on a single question: what is meant by Pandora is the first woman?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28439" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10281" RevisionGUID="a65f4f7f-4ed4-42c6-b3a0-37c2e8c0b8cc" CreationDate="2022-01-07T23:53:44.467" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected &amp; updated some details; &amp; swapped out an image" Text="The American Surety Building (also known as the Bank of Tokyo Building) is at 100 Broadway in Manhattan, in New York City. The building's façade is designed to look like the front of a Classical Greek temple (in similarity to a lot of other architectural art in the United States of America), with an [entablature](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entablature) supported by eight columns standing as tall as the real, full building's lowest two storeys. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![100Broadway][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*By [Epicgenius](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Financial_District_Sep_2020_04.jpg), 05 September 2020*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The entablature forms the front part of the floor of the actual building's third level, and atop the entablature, standing as tall as this level's height, are eight women sculpted very much in the style of Ancient Greek statuary, each woman above one of the columns. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unlike the sculptures of maidens who form very regular repeating patterns in the so-called Porch of the Caryatids in the Erekhtheion [Erechtheum] on the Athenian Acropolis, and in the Forum of Augustus in Rome, certain of the women on the American Surety Building appear to possess unique attributes, implying to me that they represent something more specific than mere replicated ornamentation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have noticed, however, that the two leftmost women seem to be exact copies of the two rightmost ones. The middle four seem be more unique, each striking a different pose and bearing a distinct attribute.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![100 Broadway - 8 Women][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Own Photo, 03 August 2021*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At first glance at the sculptures, I simply presumed them to be the nine Muses, but in addition to half of them duplicating each other, there is the fact that there *are* only *eight* of them. If they are the Muses, therefore, why is the ninth one absent? Or rather, who else might these ladies be? (Perhaps indeed just a decorative trope?)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![100 Broadway - 4 Women][3]][3]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*By [David Pirmann](https://www.flickr.com/photos/dpirmann/35575376956/), 28 June 2017*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These, in the immediately preceding image above, are the four left hand-side women. The one at the far left of the image, holding a branch, has a copy of herself to the far right of the façade (out of frame). The one next to her, upholding what looks like a mirror also has a copy of herself as the sculpture second from the right end of the group (also out of frame).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To the far right of this frame, the fourth woman wields a spear. I am unable to identify what the third woman, next to her is holding (a palm frond?), second from right (of the image).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![American Surety Building - Snake-Handler][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The fifth figure, standing next to the spear-woman, is handling a live snake (well, the *sculpture* of one)! **I'm most curious about *her*** (see the immediately preceding image). The sixth woman, next to the snake-handler, is holding something roughly cylindrical in her hand (perhaps a little scroll?). [Here](https://www.flickr.com/photos/jimg-nl/13861393833/in/photostream/)'s a closer look at both her and the snake-wielding figure.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Flanking the group, there are also four eagles, two to each side of them, and each bird perched above a down-turned sword, with a shield-like circle behind it. I assume that the symbolism here is modern and American, or at least non-Greek, without any ancient mythical Greco-Roman significance. But that's pure guesswork on my part. (Maybe they genuinely have something substantial to do with the eight figures.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![100 Broadway Eagle Sword][5]][5]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Own Photo, 03 August 2021 (A better view of this can be found [here](https://live.staticflickr.com/3823/20444547696_4cdb9c158a_b.jpg).)*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Either way, what are these creatures about? Might they, together with the anthropomorphic art pieces, be simply decor, or do they carry some deeper meaning? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/utk4k.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Dk5BE.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/dH4Vj.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/fi9Tn.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/SKRnx.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28440" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10292" RevisionGUID="dca3adf1-ce60-4fbf-9243-bcecb96cc3dd" CreationDate="2022-01-08T07:47:15.753" UserId="8896" Text="I know Hindus believe that people can become plants, animals, humans, monsters when they are reincarnated, but do Hindus mention that people can become gods after death?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28442" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10292" RevisionGUID="dca3adf1-ce60-4fbf-9243-bcecb96cc3dd" CreationDate="2022-01-08T07:47:15.753" UserId="8896" Text="Is being reborn as a god in Hinduism possible?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28443" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10292" RevisionGUID="dca3adf1-ce60-4fbf-9243-bcecb96cc3dd" CreationDate="2022-01-08T07:47:15.753" UserId="8896" Text="|hindu|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28448" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10290" RevisionGUID="b8501870-88f6-453e-8e1f-279e1723b6aa" CreationDate="2022-01-08T19:50:40.093" UserId="7106" Comment="added 576 characters in body" Text="Pandora was created from the Greek gods and offered to Epimetheus, brother of Prometheus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pandora is referred to as the first woman. It is to me unclear if she in what sense is that meant. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My original thought is that she is the first female human, but this is certainly in contradictions with others stories:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Prometheus may have created men&#xD;&#xA; - Even if Prometheus did not create men, he did give fire to men and that lead to his punishment and to the creation of Pandora&#xD;&#xA; - Even if one discards all that, Pandora opening her gift released all kinds of plagues and evils into the world (I usually interpret them to haunt humanity but I might be wrong here)&#xD;&#xA; - Phyrra, Pandora's daughter participates in a massive flood, created by Zeus to wipe out man. The deluge led to Deucalion (Phyrras husband) to create more humans by throwing rocks&#xD;&#xA; - Hesiod talks about different ages of man, usually the deluge is the end of the Bronze age, there were at least two ages before that&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Possibility 1: there were no female humans before. There were only men. At least two to three generation of only human males. Reproduction happened by mating with other creatures or some kind of magic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Possibility 2: she cannot be the first female creature as other goddesses exist. However Pandora could she be the first female mortal humanoid. Meaning that somehow all other humans before were immortals (aside from major events like, for example, a deluge). There is also a hint that &quot;death&quot; was inside Pandora's gift and she could have been the first to die from it (although not specified).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Possibility 3: Pandora is the first Heoric age female human. Previous generation of men included male and female but were so different from our concept of human female that they could not be called &quot;woman&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Possibility 4: Something poetic/symbolic, but I cannot figure out what that could be.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And of course possibility 5: it is just nonsense and it is contradictory as some stories are.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do we have an idea of what is meant by Pandora being the first woman?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28449" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10290" RevisionGUID="0df5f880-4dc5-4f93-8ee8-ed307aa56ce0" CreationDate="2022-01-08T19:56:28.750" UserId="7106" Comment="deleted 7 characters in body" Text="Pandora was created from the Greek gods and offered to Epimetheus, brother of Prometheus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pandora is referred to as the first woman. It is to me unclear in what sense that was meant. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My original thought is that she is the first female human, but this claim is in apparent contradiction with others stories that include other human beings:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Prometheus may have created men&#xD;&#xA; - Even if Prometheus did not create men, he did give fire to men and that lead to his punishment and to the creation of Pandora&#xD;&#xA; - Even if one discards all that, Pandora opening her gift released all kinds of plagues and evils into the world (I usually interpret them to haunt humanity but I might be wrong here)&#xD;&#xA; - Phyrra, Pandora's daughter participates in a massive flood, created by Zeus to wipe out man. The deluge led to Deucalion (Phyrras husband) to create more humans by throwing rocks&#xD;&#xA; - Hesiod talks about different ages of man, usually the deluge is the end of the Bronze age, there were at least two ages before that&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Possibility 1: there were no female humans before. There were only men. At least two to three generation of only human males. Reproduction happened by mating with other creatures or some kind of magic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Possibility 2: she cannot be the first female creature as other goddesses exist. However Pandora could be the first female mortal humanoid. Meaning that somehow all other humans before were immortals (aside from major events like, for example, a deluge). There is also a hint that &quot;death&quot; was inside Pandora's gift and she could have been the first to die from it (although not specified).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Possibility 3: Pandora is the first Heoric age female human. Previous generation of men included male and female but were so different from our concept of human female that they could not be called &quot;women&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Possibility 4: Something poetic/symbolic, but I cannot figure out what that could be.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And of course possibility 5: it is just nonsense and it is contradictory as some stories are.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do we have an idea of what is meant by Pandora being the first woman?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28450" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10290" RevisionGUID="8f51e8ec-992f-4589-ad8f-0960b476d44b" CreationDate="2022-01-08T20:02:24.057" UserId="7106" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body" Text="Pandora was created from the Greek gods and offered to Epimetheus, brother of Prometheus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pandora is referred to as the first woman. It is to me unclear in what sense that was meant. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My original thought is that she is the first female human, but this claim is in apparent contradiction with others stories that include other human beings:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Prometheus may have created men.&#xD;&#xA; - Even if Prometheus did not create men, he did give fire to men and that lead to his punishment and to the creation of Pandora.&#xD;&#xA; - Even if one discards all that, Pandora opening her gift released all kinds of plagues and evils into the world (I usually interpret them to haunt humanity but I might be wrong here).&#xD;&#xA; - Pandora's daughter, Phyrra, participates in a massive flood, created by Zeus to wipe out man. The flood led to Deucalion (Phyrra's husband) to create more humans by throwing rocks.&#xD;&#xA; - Hesiod talks about different ages of man, usually the flood is the end of the Bronze age and leads to the Heroic age. There were at least two ages before Bronze age.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Possibility 1: there were no female humans before. There were only men. At least two to three generation of only human males. Reproduction happened by mating with other creatures or some kind of magic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Possibility 2: she cannot be the first female creature as other goddesses exist. However Pandora could be the first female mortal humanoid. Meaning that somehow all other humans before were immortals (aside from major events like, for example, a flood). There is also a hint that &quot;death&quot; was inside Pandora's gift and she could have been the first to die from it (although not specified).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Possibility 3: Pandora is the first Heroic age female human.  Previous generation of men included male and female but were so different from our concept of human female that they could not be called &quot;women&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Possibility 4: Something poetic/symbolic, but I cannot figure out what that could be.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And of course possibility 5: it is just nonsense and it is contradictory as some stories are.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do we have an idea of what is meant by Pandora being the first woman?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28451" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10290" RevisionGUID="9695ce0f-3fee-4407-9acd-021756ff7ae2" CreationDate="2022-01-11T05:55:17.593" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected spelling &amp; fixed grammar" Text="Pandora was created by the Greek gods and offered to Epimetheus, brother of Prometheus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pandora is referred to as the first woman. It is to me unclear in what sense that was meant. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My original thought is that she is the first female human, but this claim is in apparent contradiction with others stories that include other human beings:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Prometheus may have created men.&#xD;&#xA; - Even if Prometheus did not create men, he did give fire to men and that led to his punishment and to the creation of Pandora.&#xD;&#xA; - Even if one discards all that, Pandora opening her gift released all kinds of plagues and evils into the world. (I usually interpret them to haunt humanity but I might be wrong here.)&#xD;&#xA; - Pandora's daughter Pyrrha participates in a massive flood created by Zeus to wipe out man. The flood led to Deucalion (Pyrrha's husband) creating more humans by throwing rocks.&#xD;&#xA; - Hesiod talks about different ages of man, usually the flood is the end of the Bronze age and leads to the Heroic age. There were at least two ages before Bronze age.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Possibility 1: There were no female humans before. There were only men. At least two to three generation of only human males. Reproduction happened by mating with other creatures or some kind of magic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Possibility 2: She cannot be the first female creature as other goddesses exist. However, Pandora could be the first female mortal humanoid, meaning that somehow all other humans before were immortals (aside from major events like, for example, a flood). There is also a hint that &quot;death&quot; was inside Pandora's gift and she could have been the first to die from it (although this is not specified).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Possibility 3: Pandora is the first Heroic age female human.  Previous generations of men included male and female but were so different from our concept of human female that they could not be called &quot;women&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Possibility 4: Something poetic/symbolic, but I cannot figure out what that could be.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And of course Possibility 5: It is just nonsense and it is contradictory, as some stories are.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do we have an idea of what is meant by Pandora being the first woman?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28452" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10293" RevisionGUID="e716f272-ef91-47ce-bc91-b7c6d9165d7f" CreationDate="2022-01-11T05:55:54.860" UserId="2682" Text="**Some Ancient Answers**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In interpreting the oldest surviving mythography featuring Pandora, Pausanias' *Description of Greece*, penned almost a millennium after Hesiod's texts, says plainly that &quot;Pandora was the first woman&quot; but he also expands upon this with the statement that &quot;before Pandora was produced there was as yet no womankind.&quot; Writing about a century before Pausanias, the Roman author Hyginus says in his *Fabulae* that Pandora's daughter Pyrrha was the first mortal to be born.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Taking those assertions simply at face value, it would appear that these writers understand the answer to your query as your &quot;Possibility 2&quot;: that there indeed were female entities similar to human women in existence before Pandora—as Hesiod tells us in his *Works and Days*, she was after all modelled on the immortal goddesses, to have a face like theirs—but, as you summarise it, she was the prototype for all others to come thereafter, the next one being her own daughter who would grow up to survive the Flood.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**A Closer Look at Those Answers**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Such absoluteness is difficult to square with the genealogies of characters in the mythology with which we are supplied by these very same writers. For, thanks to them, and others both before and after, we know of numerous female characters who would have predated Pyrrha, or been contemporaneous with her, who seem to live very human lives on earth, among the men of the world. They are in fact the ancestresses of the majority of the personages in Greco-Roman myth. A good number of them do descend from Pandora, but by no means are her offspring the majority.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Still, even though they seem to have been indistinguishable from human women, it actually is plausible to classify the female characters as &quot;*other* creatures&quot; as you do in your &quot;Possibility 1&quot;. The vast majority of these contemporaries of Pandora we know to have been different sorts of nymphs (usually Oceanids and Naiads), or minor goddesses of some kind. A few here and there are the daughters of giants or Autokhthones [*Autochthons*, i.e. people sprung directly from the ground]. Some of the rest would be the product of a second or third generation of the aforementioned, with yet *more* nymphs or such entities as their mothers.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So indeed, according to the genealogies provided to us, just as you say in your &quot;Possibility 3&quot;, the generations of &quot;men&quot; prior to the Age of Heroes did include females therein, but one could, somewhat reasonably, argue that they 'were so different from our concept of human female that they could not be called &quot;women&quot;.' Contrary to what Hyginus says, there were indeed mortals born among these earlier generations of female human-*like* beings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Men of Bronze, Silver and Gold**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With all those nitpicks and qualifiers aside, the mythology actually contains remarkable internal consistency, starting off, in fact, with Hesiod, who provides solutions to some of these quandaries. In his myth of the Five Ages (or, more properly, Five Breeds/Races) of Man, he says that the first two phases or breeds of men, the Golden and Silver Races, were crafted by &quot;they who dwell on Olympus&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The third breed, the race of bronze men, was &quot;sprung from ash-trees&quot;. Apollodorus does mention the thing that you note about the destruction of this race: it was brought on by the Flood, which covered the Earth in the time of Pandora's daughter Pyrrha.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In speaking of Talos, the brazen giant employed by Minos as guardian over the island of Crete, both Apollodorus (*Bibliotheca* 1.9.26) and Apollonius Rhodius (*Argonautica* 4.1638-1644) mention the idea that this giant was a survivor of the Flood from the Bronze Age. This suggests that the races of the first three ages were huge metallic androids fabricated by the gods out of tougher elements than the soft tissues that we—modern humankind—would later be constituted of.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The First of Her Kind**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This would explain why the creation of Pandora might be so impactful in a world already populated by thousands of Oceanids and numerous other sorts of nymphs who were already consorting with these metal men, Autokhthones, and early descendants of the gods and Titans. Pandora would genuinely have been the first of her kind: a purely human woman made of flesh, blood and bone, from scratch, unlike the previous renditions of female entities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Neither does the story of Pandora's creation contradict that of Prometheus' creation of mankind. The latter is supposed to be precisely that: a race of only male humans who, going by the story, supposedly lived in blissful ease and chillax mode until the first female version of them came along and messed everything up, which is exactly what Zeus intended when he commissioned Pandora's construction.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Timeline**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The general flow of the chronology goes as follows, pretty much as you've laid it out in your Question:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Prometheus makes men. (Or he and his brother Epimetheus are tasked&#xD;&#xA;   with distributing different features among all earth-dwelling&#xD;&#xA;   creatures. Epimetheus bungles the job by giving all the cool and&#xD;&#xA;   protective qualities and abilities to the animals, leaving nothing&#xD;&#xA;   for mankind.)&#xD;&#xA; - Prometheus tricks Zeus into accepting, together with the rest of the&#xD;&#xA;   gods, the inferior part of the sacrifice that humans will from now&#xD;&#xA;   on offer to them. Zeus indignantly takes fire away from men.&#xD;&#xA; - Prometheus steals the fire from heaven and gives it back to men. (He&#xD;&#xA;   does this partly to compensate for their lack of gifts due to&#xD;&#xA;   Epimetheus' previous botching of their work.)&#xD;&#xA; - Zeus has Prometheus nailed to Mt Caucasus in Scythia. In the meantime he orders&#xD;&#xA;   the creation of the first human woman, Pandora, whom Epimetheus&#xD;&#xA;   marries, against Prometheus' advice. From the inside of a jar,&#xD;&#xA;   Pandora releases the multitudes of evils which plague the&#xD;&#xA;   human race to this day.&#xD;&#xA; - In the time of Prometheus' son Deukalion [Deucalion] and of&#xD;&#xA;   Epimetheus' and Pandora's daughter Pyrrha, Zeus is fed up with the&#xD;&#xA;   bread-eating race created by Prometheus and sends a worldwide flood to&#xD;&#xA;   wipe them out.&#xD;&#xA; - Deukalion and Pyrrha, having been assisted by Prometheus' advice,&#xD;&#xA;   survive the Flood and re-people the world both with their own&#xD;&#xA;   descendants and with new humans created by them throwing a bunch of&#xD;&#xA;   stones.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**A Potential Glitch**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only clash of details to which I see some difficulty in finding a ready answer is how Prometheus' human creation fits in to the earlier part of the myth of the Five Ages of Man. Almost every account of the manner in which Prometheus modelled the first men has him fashioning them out of earth and water, just like Hesiod says that the smith-god Hephaistos built Pandora per Zeus's instructions. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One might hazard the guess that these men were the beginning of the Age of Heroes, but going by the chronology, these guys would have been annihilated in the Flood and replaced by new people sprung from stones or descended from Deukalion and Pyrrha.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**And So Finally...**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To go to the central issue, this would be the best interpretation I can draw from the material we have, beyond simply reiterating (as in the first section above) the words of Pausanias and Hyginus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pandora was the first genuinely human woman, being `zero %` nymph, goddess, Titaness, giantess, or Autokhton; nor a descendant of any of the earlier golden, silver or bronze men. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28456" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10267" RevisionGUID="42b4886b-a67f-4adc-abec-f7f2e3fc1017" CreationDate="2022-01-11T17:30:51.943" UserId="1317" Comment="Fix link" Text="The 'Stoor Worm' of Orcadian folklore is described as one of the nine fearful curses that plague mankind, what are the other curses if there are any?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Islanders were terrified of the serpent; it was described by Traill Dennison, who transcribed its story, as &quot;the worst of the nine fearful curses that plague mankind&quot; (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoor_worm)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I wanted to know if there is anything else in Orcadian folklore that's called one of the nine fearful curses or something similar, and what they are, or if the term was purely a literary invention by Traill Dennison, who was the first recorder of much of their folklore and apparently did romanticise his work a bit, so I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case. I at least haven't found anything else referred to as one of the nine curses in my searching&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sorry if the the title and question is a bit of a mess, I've really been struggling with how to word it for some reason, and thanks for any answers provided!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28457" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10295" RevisionGUID="28772322-96db-4069-ba2c-3602edf387a7" CreationDate="2022-01-11T22:42:34.647" UserId="8905" Text="There is a whole lot to suggest that the Nordic mythology actually comes from the Old Testament. Some translations of Isaiah 5:14 interpret this similar to Fenrir dragging his jaw across the earth.  Zechariah 11:17 speaks of a shepherd without his right eye (Odin) and missing his arm (Tyr/King of Tyre).  Even the names Lucifer and Hel both come from the Hebrew Helel, which translates Shiner or Hel god.  Many of the legends of King Arthur and the grail suggest that the Holy Grail was hidden with pagans, and some even say that King Arthur was a descendant of Odin.  Others say the grail wasn't a cup, but the Lapsit Exillis, thus bringing another link with the all seeing eye and Odin--afterall, the proper way to cut a diamond is with a squared 90 degree angle base/bottom/culet angle, and a circular, circumscribed crown/top--thus it is the squared and circumscribed stone of the FreeMasons.  Could it be that the big secret of the Freemasons is a very rare diamond, &quot;the rock not cut out by human hands&quot; (Daniel 2), that has also been described as the all seeing eye, the eye of Odin, the eye of Horus, the philosopher's stone, the Kryptonian crystal of Kal-El (which is Hebrew for lord of light), and many other names?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28459" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10236" RevisionGUID="12a10950-e116-4f46-8184-4fb27ef67e3d" CreationDate="2022-01-11T23:41:03.383" UserId="398" Comment="added 190 characters in body" Text="Chronologically, it goes Hercules/Heracles, Theseus, and then Achilles in the main mythological accounts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Achilles is last. Hercules older by far because he's the one who placed child Priam on the throne, and Priam was far older than Achilles in the *Iliad*. Achilles was essentially the baby of the Greek kings, likely younger even then Priam's son Hector. So Hercules is far, far older than Achilles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With regards to Theseus, Heracles is still older. Pausanias has this story about them both going to the house of Pittheus. Heracles is a grown man, and Theseus is 7 years old.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [1.27.7] One of the Troezenian legends about Theseus is the following. When Heracles visited Pittheus at Troezen, he laid aside his lion's skin to eat his dinner, and there came in to see him some Troezenian children with Theseus, then about seven years of age. The story goes that when they saw the skin the other children ran away, but Theseus slipped out not much afraid, seized an axe from the servants and straightway attacked the skin in earnest, thinking it to be a lion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [1.27.8] This is the first Troezenian legend about Theseus. The next is that Aegeus placed boots and a sword under a rock as tokens for the child, and then sailed away to Athens; Theseus, when sixteen years old, pushed the rock away and departed, taking what Aegeus had deposited. There is a representation of this legend on the Acropolis, everything in bronze except the rock.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later authors equated the Marathonian Bull that Theseus kills with the Cretan Bull of Heracles' seventh labor, again making Heracles' adventures prior to Theseus'.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of course, Greek mythical figures aren't real (as depicted), so you might find some inconsistencies in accounts, but I think other stories can fit well with the chronology. For example, in Sophocles' *Oedipus at Colonus*, Oedipus goes to Athens to see King Theseus. Well, Oedipus' kids fought each other in the war of the Epigoni, which was the war right before the Trojan War. If Achilles was a child or even not born yet during the Epigoni, that would also confirm Theseus' seniority over him." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28469" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10298" RevisionGUID="695d178a-3ee9-4d4d-8e66-e5c328ec103d" CreationDate="2022-01-12T23:04:30.060" UserId="8910" Text="Some characteristics used to describe goblins are also depicted in anti-semitic propaganda (greed, hook shaped noses, long fingers).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Were goblins ever been associated with antisemitism in some way?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28471" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10298" RevisionGUID="695d178a-3ee9-4d4d-8e66-e5c328ec103d" CreationDate="2022-01-12T23:04:30.060" UserId="8910" Text="Are (or have been) goblins ever associated with anti-semitic characteristics?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28472" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10298" RevisionGUID="695d178a-3ee9-4d4d-8e66-e5c328ec103d" CreationDate="2022-01-12T23:04:30.060" UserId="8910" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28473" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10299" RevisionGUID="d725df4e-8b81-46c8-97b5-c4b524bbec19" CreationDate="2022-01-14T15:48:07.483" UserId="8917" Text="I know there are different types of lycanthrope, a shapeshifter with 2 shifts. I know that different cultures (like japanese, western, norse) discuss the consent of lycanthropes. But how many different types of shifters in these stories are lycanthrope?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28475" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10299" RevisionGUID="d725df4e-8b81-46c8-97b5-c4b524bbec19" CreationDate="2022-01-14T15:48:07.483" UserId="8917" Text="How many different werewolf variants are there?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28476" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10299" RevisionGUID="d725df4e-8b81-46c8-97b5-c4b524bbec19" CreationDate="2022-01-14T15:48:07.483" UserId="8917" Text="|mythical-creatures|werewolves|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28477" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6098" RevisionGUID="b4818577-1400-418b-be99-17b85953244c" CreationDate="2022-01-14T16:05:33.323" UserId="7095" Comment="Corrected punctuation marks, deleted extra word." Text="Is there any way to test whether people were capable of doing things in those days that they cannot do today? One way (I'm sure there are others) to test would be to see if there are lots of reports citing similar occurrences in different places and at different times in front of a large number of people. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even in medieval times, people referred to dybbuks etc. Again, the question is whether there are lots of reports of these things appearing in public. To sum up, has someone scientifically investigated the possibility that the ancients could do things that we would call magical?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28478" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="6098" RevisionGUID="b4818577-1400-418b-be99-17b85953244c" CreationDate="2022-01-14T16:05:33.323" Comment="Proposed by 7095 approved by 53, 2682 edit id of 1882" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28485" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10293" RevisionGUID="97232c42-0ddf-4477-b4f3-88d6d94585fe" CreationDate="2022-01-16T15:32:59.223" UserId="2682" Comment="added some material" Text="**Some Ancient Answers**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In interpreting the oldest surviving mythography featuring Pandora, Pausanias' *Description of Greece*, penned almost a millennium after Hesiod's texts, says plainly that &quot;Pandora was the first woman&quot; but he also expands upon this with the statement that &quot;before Pandora was produced there was as yet no womankind.&quot; Writing about a century before Pausanias, the Roman author Hyginus says in his *Fabulae* that Pandora's daughter Pyrrha was the first mortal to be born.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Taking those assertions simply at face value, it would appear that these writers understand the answer to your query as your &quot;Possibility 2&quot;: that there indeed were female entities similar to human women in existence before Pandora—as Hesiod tells us in his *Works and Days*, she was after all modelled on the immortal goddesses, to have a face like theirs—but, as you summarise it, she was the prototype for all others to come thereafter, the next one being her own daughter who would grow up to survive the Flood.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**A Closer Look at Those Answers**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Such absoluteness is difficult to square with the genealogies of characters in the mythology with which we are supplied by these very same writers. For, thanks to them, and others both before and after, we know of numerous female characters who would have predated Pyrrha, or been contemporaneous with her, who seem to live very human lives on earth, among the men of the world. They are in fact the ancestresses of the majority of the personages in Greco-Roman myth. A good number of them do descend from Pandora, but by no means are her offspring the majority.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Still, even though they seem to have been indistinguishable from human women, it actually is plausible to classify the female characters as &quot;*other* creatures&quot; as you do in your &quot;Possibility 1&quot;. The vast majority of these contemporaries of Pandora we know to have been different sorts of nymphs (usually Oceanids and Naiads), or minor goddesses of some kind. A few here and there are the daughters of giants or Autokhthones [*Autochthons*, i.e. people sprung directly from the ground]. Some of the rest would be the product of a second or third generation of the aforementioned, with yet *more* nymphs or such entities as their mothers.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So indeed, according to the genealogies provided to us, just as you say in your &quot;Possibility 3&quot;, the generations of &quot;men&quot; prior to the Age of Heroes did include females therein, but one could, somewhat reasonably, argue that they 'were so different from our concept of human female that they could not be called &quot;women&quot;.' Contrary to what Hyginus says, there were indeed mortals born among these earlier generations of female human-*like* beings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Men of Bronze, Silver and Gold**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With all those nitpicks and qualifiers aside, the mythology actually contains remarkable internal consistency, starting off, in fact, with Hesiod, who provides solutions to some of these quandaries. In his myth of the Five Ages (or, more properly, Five Breeds/Races) of Man, he says that the first two phases or breeds of men, the Golden and Silver Races, were crafted by &quot;they who dwell on Olympus&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The third breed, the race of bronze men, was &quot;sprung from ash-trees&quot;. Apollodorus does mention the thing that you note about the destruction of this race: it was brought on by the Flood, which covered the Earth in the time of Pandora's daughter Pyrrha.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In speaking of Talos, the brazen giant employed by Minos as guardian over the island of Crete, both Apollodorus (*Bibliotheca* 1.9.26) and Apollonius Rhodius (*Argonautica* 4.1638-1644) mention the idea that this giant was a survivor of the Flood from the Bronze Age. This suggests that the races of the first three ages were huge metallic androids fabricated by the gods out of tougher elements than the soft tissues that we—modern humankind—would later be constituted of.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The First of Her Kind**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This would explain why the creation of Pandora might be so impactful in a world already populated by thousands of Oceanids and numerous other sorts of nymphs who were already consorting with these metal men, Autokhthones, and early descendants of the gods and Titans. Pandora would genuinely have been the first of her kind: a purely human woman made of flesh, blood and bone, from scratch, unlike the previous renditions of female entities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Neither does the story of Pandora's creation contradict that of Prometheus' creation of mankind. The latter is supposed to be precisely that: a race of only male humans who, going by the story, supposedly lived in blissful ease and chillax mode until the first female version of them came along and messed everything up, which is exactly what Zeus intended when he commissioned Pandora's construction.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Timeline**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The general flow of the chronology goes as follows, pretty much as you've laid it out in your Question:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Prometheus makes men. (Or he and his brother Epimetheus are tasked&#xD;&#xA;   with distributing different features among all earth-dwelling&#xD;&#xA;   creatures. Epimetheus bungles the job by giving all the cool and&#xD;&#xA;   protective qualities and abilities to the animals, leaving nothing&#xD;&#xA;   for mankind.)&#xD;&#xA; - Prometheus tricks Zeus into accepting, together with the rest of the&#xD;&#xA;   gods, the inferior part of the sacrifice that humans will from now&#xD;&#xA;   on offer to them. Zeus indignantly takes fire away from men.&#xD;&#xA; - Prometheus steals the fire from heaven and gives it back to men. (He&#xD;&#xA;   does this partly to compensate for their lack of gifts due to&#xD;&#xA;   Epimetheus' previous botching of their work.)&#xD;&#xA; - Zeus has Prometheus nailed to Mt Caucasus in Scythia. In the meantime he orders&#xD;&#xA;   the creation of the first human woman, Pandora, whom Epimetheus&#xD;&#xA;   marries, against Prometheus' advice. From the inside of a jar,&#xD;&#xA;   Pandora releases the multitudes of evils which plague the&#xD;&#xA;   human race to this day.&#xD;&#xA; - In the time of Prometheus' son Deukalion [Deucalion] and of&#xD;&#xA;   Epimetheus' and Pandora's daughter Pyrrha, Zeus is fed up with the&#xD;&#xA;   bread-eating race created by Prometheus and sends a worldwide flood to&#xD;&#xA;   wipe them out.&#xD;&#xA; - Deukalion and Pyrrha, having been assisted by Prometheus' advice,&#xD;&#xA;   survive the Flood and re-people the world both with their own&#xD;&#xA;   descendants and with new humans created by them throwing a bunch of&#xD;&#xA;   stones.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**A Potential Glitch**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only clash of details to which I see some difficulty in finding a ready answer is how Prometheus' human creation fits in to the earlier part of the myth of the Five Ages of Man. Almost every account of the manner in which Prometheus modelled the first men has him fashioning them out of earth and water, just like Hesiod says that the smith-god Hephaistos [Hephaestus] built Pandora per Zeus's instructions. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One might hazard the guess that these men were the beginning of the Age of Heroes, but going by the chronology, these guys would have been annihilated in the Flood and replaced by new people sprung from stones or descended from Deukalion and Pyrrha.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Death and Mortality**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as I know there is no ancient source that explicitly mentions Pandora's death or necessarily refers to her as a mortal, although to me this certainly seems to be the general implication, the closest statement to that effect being Hyginus appearing to indicate that Pandora's daughter Pyrrha inherited mortality from her mother. Modern commentary on this likewise tends to interpret Pandora as having been mortal, such as in the first sentence of [Theoi.com's article on her](https://www.theoi.com/Heroine/Pandora.html).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod does not seem to have understood Death to be one of the malevolent things released from Pandora's jar, especially if we take his myth of the Five Ages as compatible with this story, since he talks about men dying prior to Pandora's time-period. The contents of the jar seem to have had more to do with life's difficulties rather than mortality. In *Works and Days*, they are listed as *kakoi*, &quot;ills&quot; or &quot;troubles&quot; (bad stuff); hard toil; and heavy sickness (plagues and the like). Going by that understanding, prior to Pandora's creation, men did die but their lives were not characterised by pain, disease, and the general struggle to survive.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**And So Finally...**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To go to the central issue, this would be the best interpretation I can draw from the material we have, beyond simply reiterating (as in the first section above) the words of Pausanias and Hyginus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pandora was the first genuinely human woman, being `zero %` nymph, goddess, Titaness, giantess, or Autokhton; nor a descendant of any of the earlier golden, silver or bronze men. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28486" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3194" RevisionGUID="9537a048-01e4-443e-b1c1-fb774790cb55" CreationDate="2022-01-16T22:05:10.437" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="28487" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10302" RevisionGUID="52045355-bbdb-4786-8b02-e1f2e78f9de5" CreationDate="2022-01-17T13:38:46.640" UserId="7106" Text="I cannot seem to be able to find any Punic myths concerning deities. Is there any? If not, why not?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28489" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10302" RevisionGUID="52045355-bbdb-4786-8b02-e1f2e78f9de5" CreationDate="2022-01-17T13:38:46.640" UserId="7106" Text="Are there any myths concerning Punic/Carthaginian deities?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28490" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10302" RevisionGUID="52045355-bbdb-4786-8b02-e1f2e78f9de5" CreationDate="2022-01-17T13:38:46.640" UserId="7106" Text="|africa|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28491" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10303" RevisionGUID="c8ccaa82-2a89-4e17-bc48-a773c6bf7dd1" CreationDate="2022-01-17T22:01:54.557" UserId="3989" Text="I'd go somewhere in between #4 and #5, with some adjustments to both. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For #4, consider rhetorical exigency. *Works &amp; Days* tells its version of the Pandora story in the context of Hesiod's appeal for justice against his brother. The more specific point being supported is pure misogyny: that women are trouble, among the worst of the manifold ways in which Zeus has seen to it that mortal men are screwed. This is part of the poetry's creation of &quot;Hesiod&quot; as a character, a dour curmudgeon. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The title figure in Plato's *Protagoras* is I think the first to bring into the related Prometheus myth the whole bit about Epimetheus squandering all on animals such survival advantages as speed, armor, claws, etc.; and that is in the context of debate over whether good citizenship is teachable. (The passage, [Plato Prot. 320c][1]-322d aka DK 80.C.1, may well reflect a discourse &quot;on the arrangement of things at the beginning&quot; that is independently attributed to Protagoras, though how closely it might reflect that is hard to say.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On #5, contradiction does not warrant dismissing a mythology as nonsense; far from it. Logic's iron law of non-contradiction may seem eternally obvious and ineluctable; but it stems from the dictum of Parmenides that truth is one, and myth speaks to us from before his time. (Protagoras himself was not before Parmenides' time, but he clearly rejected that dictum.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In sum, those who lived and breathed these myths had no compunction about manipulating them to serve the rhetorical purpose of the moment. They implicitly held, with Emerson, that &quot;a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0178%3Atext%3DProt.%3Asection%3D320c" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28493" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10302" RevisionGUID="b6549c9b-cb0c-40e9-b32f-06cbf0a2c140" CreationDate="2022-01-17T22:39:57.567" UserId="7106" Comment="deleted 13 characters in body" Text="I am unable to find any Punic myths concerning deities. Is there any? If not, why not?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28494" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10304" RevisionGUID="9691f309-b71e-42ed-9c4e-b0b865c3cf8d" CreationDate="2022-01-18T01:18:22.350" UserId="6920" Text="The overwhelming majority of our information about ancient Carthage comes from Greek and Roman sources, which do not document the myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If the Carthaginians documented their own myths, the documents did not survive.  In fact, the vast majority of direct evidence for their religion derives from their use of theophoric names (invoking the god in a name) or in inscriptions, neither of which contain enough information to reconstruct any myths." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28501" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10302" RevisionGUID="6e110105-e9a1-4864-a992-e468ea280c2f" CreationDate="2022-01-18T13:59:02.553" UserId="6920" Comment="grammar error" Text="I am unable to find any Punic myths concerning deities. Are there any such myths? If not, why not?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28502" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="10302" RevisionGUID="6e110105-e9a1-4864-a992-e468ea280c2f" CreationDate="2022-01-18T13:59:02.553" Comment="Proposed by 6920 approved by 7106 edit id of 1883" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28504" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="10302" RevisionGUID="bf3e3f7d-a655-4d64-b331-bc977c6b2ddc" CreationDate="2022-01-19T08:28:13.093" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="|africa|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28505" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10305" RevisionGUID="5a849484-ce26-4e29-af49-80011f2cc01c" CreationDate="2022-01-19T09:56:58.867" UserId="108" Text="Unfortunately, the vast majority of Punic and indeed most Phoenician sources did not survive. The extant corpus is mostly inscriptions, typically shorter religious formulations, and consequently the greater part of their mythology has been lost to us.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But while there's little *direct* attestation of Carthaginian mythology, scholars believe some elements of Punic mythology were preserved in the writings of Graeco-Roman writers (for example, [this 'fable' reported by Sallust](https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0126%3Achapter%3D79)). For the purposes of this question specifically, the legend of [Queen Dido](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dido) - which some scholars argue was originally a native Carthaginian founding myth - might be of interest:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dido perhaps means 'the wanderer&quot;. It was her name among the Carthaginians, whereas at Tyre, the great Phoenician city which had founded Carthage or 'New Town' (allegedly in 814 BC), she was known was Elissa. This name was derived from a divinity, El. That is to say, **Dido-Elissa was originally a goddess**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Additionally, Carthage was a Phoenician colony that maintained close ties with her mother city, Tyre, for centuries. As late as 332 BC, there were still Carthaginian envoys bringing tribute to Tyre's temple caught up in Alexander the Great's capture of the city. Many of Tyre's elderly, women, and children were also evacuated to Carthage prior to the siege. Even the word 'Punic' actually came from the Latin word for Phoenicians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With such close cultural and demographical links, it can be reasonably inferred that most if not nearly all old Phoenician mythology were also carried over to Carthage. While that's still really not much, it does give us the fragmentary [works of Sanchuniathon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanchuniathon), which contain, among other stories, a creation myth and genealogies of gods including ones definitively worshipped in Carthage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28507" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10306" RevisionGUID="1f91844f-312d-4f09-88df-140dc5407527" CreationDate="2022-01-19T15:26:33.260" UserId="7315" Text="Indeed, the source of the expression &quot;one of the nine curses that plague mankind&quot; appears to be Trall Dennison, in [this article][1] which appeared in *The Scottish Antiquary, or, Northern Notes and Queries* Vol. 5, No. 19 (1891). Note that in the article he does not explain what the other curses are, or mention them again.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also in his much more detailed retelling of the folktale &quot;Assipattle and the Stoor Worm&quot;, which appeared in *Scottish Folk &amp; Fairy Tales* edited by George Douglas (of which you can find the scanned pages [here][2]) he makes no mention of the &quot;nine curses&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note also that Dennison did not claim the Stoor Worm to be the *worst* of the nine curses, but rather just one of them: the quoted passage in the Wikipedia page is from *The Folklore of Orkney and Shetland* by Ernest Marwick, who used Dennison as a source.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While it's entirely plausible that the nine curses were Dennison's invention, one should also take into account the likely Norse origin of the Stoor Worm myth, which is based on the similarities it shares with [Jörmungandr][3]. In the Norse mythological corpus (and in the Germanic corpus in general), similar references to the number nine are extremely common, as shown in [this article][4] by Joseph Hopkins and in the Wikipedia entry on [Numbers in Norse mythology][5].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A very famous one is the reference to &quot;[nine worlds][6]&quot; in stanza 2 of the [Völuspá][7]. Just like Dennison's &quot;nine curses&quot;, the &quot;nine worlds&quot; of Norse cosmology are not listed or expanded on in the corpus, and scholars are left wondering what they actually were (assuming there even was such a list).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A similar occurrence of the number nine in relation to the Stoor Worm appears in the aforementioned Dennison article a bit after the &quot;nine curses&quot;. He writes:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Every Saturday morning at sunrise he yawned nine times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This apparently irrelevant detail is quite reminiscent of analogous details appearing in the Norse corpus, like for example Thor taking nine steps before falling dead after his battle with Jörmungandr. Such details gain meaning in light of the significance the number nine held among the Norse.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://archive.org/details/scottishantiqua05unkngoog/page/n142/mode/2up?view=theater&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.storytellingresearchlois.com/2014/07/douglas-assipattle-and-mester-stoorworm.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rmungandr&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.mimisbrunnr.info/ksd-numbers&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbers_in_Norse_mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_cosmology#Nine_Worlds&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lusp%C3%A1" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28509" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10307" RevisionGUID="9112f850-db14-4ecd-bb8b-9ed6e1b552db" CreationDate="2022-01-21T06:00:06.167" UserId="4601" Text="Outside the Abrahamic religions and mythology are there any equivalents to the Garden of Eden? More specifically:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* A garden, orchard, or similarly cultivated or designed space distinct from wilderness or primordial forests&#xD;&#xA;* Present at or near the beginning of time, creation of the world, a previous age, or the like – so not your run-of-the-mill sacred grove&#xD;&#xA;* More than just a Tree of Life/Knowledge/etc; it may house it or other things of significance, but is a place itself, more than the tree&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'd appreciate even tenuous comparisons that fit the above." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28511" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10307" RevisionGUID="9112f850-db14-4ecd-bb8b-9ed6e1b552db" CreationDate="2022-01-21T06:00:06.167" UserId="4601" Text="Other Gardens of Eden?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28512" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10307" RevisionGUID="9112f850-db14-4ecd-bb8b-9ed6e1b552db" CreationDate="2022-01-21T06:00:06.167" UserId="4601" Text="|comparative|creation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28517" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10309" RevisionGUID="892fa8c3-ebcd-452d-83d3-b2daf2e0d902" CreationDate="2022-01-22T01:58:56.117" UserId="6920" Text="The Peach Blossom Valley.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia describes to a specific literary work [The Peach Blossom Spring][1], but there have been many forms of it:  a man stumbles on a hidden, tranquil, Arcadian valley, where the inhabitants believe China to still be ruled by an dynasty that is several dynasties in the past.  Modern variants, for instance, think that China is still an empire.  It does not, in fact, have things of significance, it's just the place where they live.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Peach_Blossom_Spring" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28520" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10307" RevisionGUID="3c386f11-b4b4-4ae2-b4e1-13024f7730b5" CreationDate="2022-01-22T11:14:53.497" UserId="108" Comment="edited title" Text="Are there other Gardens of Eden?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28521" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10310" RevisionGUID="e07e3eed-4108-4643-a9d8-d663b064d786" CreationDate="2022-01-23T04:52:33.230" UserId="8896" Text="Werewolves are an individual race, though the word &quot;werewolf&quot; is used as a descriptive word to describe any similar creature race. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Varcolac - A Romanian creature that is commonly believed to be a wizard who can take a wolf's form.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Loup-garou - A creature native to France that shares a lot of similarities with Werewolves.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lupo-mannero - Italian creatures similar to Loup-garou&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Benandanti - Werewolf-like creatures also from Italy that can leave their physical body and travel to Hell&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Varulv - Norwegian creatures that can change into the form of a wolf by wearing a certain kind of clothing, usually a belt&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lubins - Fairy-like creatures from Brittany that like to shapeshift into wolf form&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lob-hombre - Spanish wolf-like shapeshifter that prefers gemstones to human flesh&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Volkolak - Russian shapeshifters that can transform into a wolf or a bear" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28523" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="10282" RevisionGUID="e3b6f57c-8acb-401e-9bd4-f9c1dd63221b" CreationDate="2022-01-23T15:21:12.117" UserId="57" Comment="128" />
  <row Id="28524" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10311" RevisionGUID="35a56e15-023c-4aa2-a401-c9c5bfc419a9" CreationDate="2022-01-24T08:15:27.843" UserId="8896" Text="I know that the Yoruba and Japanese gods have basically an infinite number of gods since their pantheons continue to grow all the time but are there any other pantheons that do this?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28526" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10311" RevisionGUID="35a56e15-023c-4aa2-a401-c9c5bfc419a9" CreationDate="2022-01-24T08:15:27.843" UserId="8896" Text="Are the Yoruba and Japanese pantheons the only ones to have an infinite increasing number of gods?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28527" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10311" RevisionGUID="35a56e15-023c-4aa2-a401-c9c5bfc419a9" CreationDate="2022-01-24T08:15:27.843" UserId="8896" Text="|japanese|pantheon|gods|yoruba|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28528" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="10311" RevisionGUID="a34a12e9-2e0d-4c9c-a6db-5f4a06a4f27f" CreationDate="2022-01-24T09:34:15.000" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="|comparative|japanese|pantheon|yoruba|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28534" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10313" RevisionGUID="721534fd-8681-403d-86ed-1bb48e07f3cd" CreationDate="2022-01-25T16:15:28.323" UserId="8954" Text="If that is Nergal, then the female is most likely Ereshkigal/Allatu/Al-Lat.  Would make sense given the snakes present, as both Nergal and Ereshkigal were children of Enki, the god whose family/clan was symbolized by the serpent, by different women.  The only problem I have is that Nergal was supposed to be bald, and yet in this image the male has plenty of hair on his head.  On a side note, Nergal also walked with a limp, although that would be hard to depict in an image, except maybe for the presence of a cane or such, which I don't see here.  Although, his posture is leaning to the side, possibly showing him to favor one side over the other, like a limp would produce in one's posture/walking gait.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28536" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6144" RevisionGUID="06595173-10d6-4aab-879e-73efb126f0f6" CreationDate="2022-01-26T03:09:00.773" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="28537" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10314" RevisionGUID="e675240d-b208-4333-ab70-1fcc3d8234b3" CreationDate="2022-01-26T15:50:42.633" UserId="8959" Text="I wanted to know if the legends of Vampires being vulnerable to a crucifix or a cross is because of what happened to Jesus ?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does Vampires stories existed because that ?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28539" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10314" RevisionGUID="e675240d-b208-4333-ab70-1fcc3d8234b3" CreationDate="2022-01-26T15:50:42.633" UserId="8959" Text="Are vampire vulnerable to crucifix because of crucifixion Jesus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28540" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10314" RevisionGUID="e675240d-b208-4333-ab70-1fcc3d8234b3" CreationDate="2022-01-26T15:50:42.633" UserId="8959" Text="|vampires|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28541" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10314" RevisionGUID="d2889609-9f79-4fb6-83a7-9093371cf475" CreationDate="2022-01-26T15:57:03.367" UserId="8959" Comment="edited title" Text="Are vampire vulnerable to crucifix because of the crucifixion of Jesus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28542" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10314" RevisionGUID="9d597986-f032-4955-a3b0-88cfa66587f3" CreationDate="2022-01-26T16:12:41.493" UserId="8959" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="I wanted to know if the legends of Vampires being vulnerable to a crucifix or a cross is because of what happened to Jesus ?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did vampire stories exist before ?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28543" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10315" RevisionGUID="21e32b1c-b025-4bbf-b8eb-b79bf552c253" CreationDate="2022-01-27T03:21:53.397" UserId="4152" Text="[This question][1] might be of interest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If it's correct that modern vampire folklore largely derives from Stoker, then most likely the answer to your question is yes. [Vampire literature][2] only seems to predate Dracula by a century and a half, so it doesn't appear that we're really looking at any kind of deep lore here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whether in legend or real life, the crucifix is a very powerful sign indeed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/126511/what-was-the-first-story-in-which-crucifixes-burned-vampires&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampire_literature" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28545" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10316" RevisionGUID="502e29dc-c407-4432-a409-7621f2a85665" CreationDate="2022-01-27T03:51:56.293" UserId="4152" Text="#### A 500 Piece Puzzle with 493 Pieces Missing!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not a myth per se, but there is &quot;Hanno's Prayer&quot; in the [Poenulus][1] (Plautus). Act five supposedly contains his speech in Punic (or perhaps mock Punic? or perhaps garbled Punic? -- Igpayim Unicpayim?)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The translation at that link to Tufts is interesting, if legit. We do know that Plautus wrote the play some short while after the second Punic war, and that people would have been familiar with Carthaginians as non-Greek foreigners. If this contains any legitimate Punic words it might be of interest for you to look into.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm no Semiticist, but ***alonim vualonuth*** certainly looks like &quot;gods and goddesses to me. I would take vu- to be and, and it does seem to look and behave like [w- in Aramaic][2], from Proto Semitic *wa*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0106%3Aact%3D5#note1&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://kaikki.org/dictionary/Aramaic/meaning/%D7%95/%D7%95%D6%BE/%D7%95%D6%BE.html#%D7%95%D6%BE-arc-conj-YgERG4Og" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28547" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="10314" RevisionGUID="60748dcc-68d9-4f84-8e67-caa3e98a1cd6" CreationDate="2022-01-28T20:04:02.350" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="|christianity|vampires|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28548" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10317" RevisionGUID="cd5c12c5-41e7-429d-a44a-3d6725efa130" CreationDate="2022-01-29T07:04:31.417" UserId="8896" Text="I know these demons reproduce with humans, however can they reproduce with each other?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28550" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10317" RevisionGUID="cd5c12c5-41e7-429d-a44a-3d6725efa130" CreationDate="2022-01-29T07:04:31.417" UserId="8896" Text="Can an Incubus and Succubus reproduce with each other?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28551" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10317" RevisionGUID="cd5c12c5-41e7-429d-a44a-3d6725efa130" CreationDate="2022-01-29T07:04:31.417" UserId="8896" Text="|demons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28552" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10318" RevisionGUID="da6ff352-570d-4a80-9e13-2bacb6c50764" CreationDate="2022-01-31T01:44:10.697" UserId="3989" Text="In the opening paragraph of *The Birth of Tragedy* ([orig][1]./[trans][2].), Nietzsche names Apollo and Dionysus as “both” of the Greeks’ “art-deities” (ihre beiden Kunstgottheiten)—as if they were the only two. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But the myth recounted by the title character in Plato’s *Protagoras* ([320c][3]-322d, DK 80.C.1) represents Prometheus as stealing for us mortals *entechnos sophia*—the wit to invent arts and crafts—from the workshops of Hephaestus and Athena, together with fire, which is indispensable for such crafts as metalwork, pottery, and cookery. (Aeschylus also credits Prometheus for our species' unique mastery of arts, [PV 442-][4]506.) And the larger point of that whole story concerns the *politikē technē,* the art of politics (i.e., of establishing, governing, and living in civil communities), which belongs to Zeus, whose place Prometheus dared not burgle. So here we have three Olympian deities associated with art, and this set of three has no overlap with Nietzsche’s set of two.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I suspect two very different notions of “art” are in play here. Nietzsche, in a work dedicated to Wagner, has in mind a lofty Romantic ideal of “high” art. Accordingly he names only “fine” or prestige arts in this same paragraph—sculpture for Apollo, music for Dionysus—on his way to theorizing the birth of another prestige art, tragic poetry. But the word reliably underlying “art” in English translations of ancient Greek writings is *technē,* which equally denoted much humbler handicrafts, such as the spinning and weaving that were Athena’s and women’s special province. Any more or less specialized know-how that could be taught and learned was a *technē.*  (Much of Plato’s work is devoted to the question whether moral virtue[s] might qualify.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are not all or most of the Greek gods associated with one or more “arts” in this broader sense? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The Muses would seem to go without saying, though their existence as&#xD;&#xA;   a distinct set might seem to undercut this whole hypothesis.  Or not—see [Do Muses govern the arts?][5] on this site.&#xD;&#xA; - Zeus patronizes the art of politics, as noted, presumably including the art of rhetoric, often  credited with the initial formation of civil society; and also the art of hospitality. (Rhetoric and hospitality are both represented as teachable practices by Homer: *Iliad* [9.439-43][6], *Odyssey* [3.13-28][7] &amp; [4.20-36][8].)&#xD;&#xA; - Apollo is associated with healing arts as Paeon, and prophetic or mantic ones as Loxias. Also (pace Nietzsche) lyric music, which the Homeric hymn to Hermes ([HH4 490ff][9]) suggests is somehow delegated to him by that god, as is prophecy from Zeus, or ultimately [from Gaea][10]; and in turn Apollo’s own mantle of healer-god was passed in the classical period to his deified hero-son Asclepius.&#xD;&#xA; - Dionysus, whatever his relationship to musical, theatrical, and yes also healing arts, seems obviously associated with the arts of viticulture and wine-making.&#xD;&#xA; - Hermes, besides inventing and mastering musical instruments more than one per the afore-cited hymn, is god of thieves, so we can assign him the art of the Artful Dodger.&#xD;&#xA; - Ares may well have preceded Sun Tzu in professing an art of war.&#xD;&#xA; - Poseidon presumably rules both navigation and horsemanship, Artemis the art of hunting, Demeter the art of agriculture, and Hestia the home-maker’s arts.&#xD;&#xA; - Hades/Aidoneus might be a stretch, but funerary rites surely admit of both&#xD;&#xA;   right and wrong ways of doing things, and the teaching of&#xD;&#xA;   future practitioners to know and observe the difference.&#xD;&#xA; - How Aphrodite and Eros divvy up the arts of love is an even more&#xD;&#xA;   vexed question than which of the two is older. Between them, though, they patronize such arts as are detailed in Ovid’s *Ars Amatoria* and the *Kama Sutra.* By such arts are human pair-bonds formed, but to form one is all too often to destroy another. That leaves room for a distinct art and divinity, related in this sense as Vishnu to Shiva, for the preservation of the pair-bond through time. The art is the art of marriage—not so much the getting married as the staying so—and the divinity would be Hera.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I’m admittedly speculating and spitballing a good deal here, but it really begins to seem to me as if the awe that was eventually personified as the various Greek gods (per Cassirer’s theory of theogony in *[Language and Myth][11])* may well have arisen in significant part from the Greeks’ awe at their own practical inventiveness, their *entechnos sophia.* Sophocles’ chorus in *Antigone* famously sings that nothing is so awe-inspiring *(deinos)* as our own species, specifically on account of the arts we devise and practice ([322ff][12]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So is the Greek pantheon a mythologized polytechnic? Or is this just a spin one could as easily put on any pantheon or religion? Or what?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/7206/pg7206.txt&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/51356/51356-h/51356-h.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0178%3Atext%3DProt.%3Asection%3D320c&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0010%3Acard%3D436&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/1979/3989&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D417&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D3%3Acard%3D1&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D4%3Acard%3D1&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0138%3Ahymn%3D4%3Acard%3D488&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0006&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://archive.org/details/ErnstCassirerLanguageAndMyth/page/n1/mode/2up&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0186%3Acard%3D332" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28554" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10318" RevisionGUID="da6ff352-570d-4a80-9e13-2bacb6c50764" CreationDate="2022-01-31T01:44:10.697" UserId="3989" Text="How central are arts (τέχναι) to the Greeks' conception of godhead?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28555" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10318" RevisionGUID="da6ff352-570d-4a80-9e13-2bacb6c50764" CreationDate="2022-01-31T01:44:10.697" UserId="3989" Text="|greek|muses|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28556" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="10282" RevisionGUID="c28cdb9e-0d99-4c0c-8210-857f6cae9626" CreationDate="2022-01-31T17:06:55.623" UserId="-1" Comment="128" />
  <row Id="28557" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10298" RevisionGUID="6a9c0fdf-ce65-492e-a5c8-f6c37a62a37c" CreationDate="2022-02-01T20:40:51.293" UserId="8910" Comment="rewrite" Text="Some characteristics used to describe goblins are also depicted in anti-semitic propaganda (they are usually described as greedy, hook nosed creatures).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Were goblins ever been associated with antisemitism in some way?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28561" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="7744" RevisionGUID="6037e2ee-de5f-4d1d-af6d-f83ea2f06f1a" CreationDate="2022-02-05T21:06:15.570" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="28562" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10320" RevisionGUID="e5af8636-300e-4034-8cd1-429845b45091" CreationDate="2022-02-06T05:40:02.573" UserId="1241" Text="**Are there other Gardens of Eden?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Hanging Gardens of Babylon comes to mind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The [**Hanging Gardens of Babylon**][1] were one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World listed by Hellenic culture. They were described as a remarkable feat of engineering with an ascending series of tiered gardens containing a wide variety of trees, shrubs, and vines, resembling a large green mountain constructed of mud bricks. It was said to have been built in the ancient city of Babylon, near present-day Hillah, Babil province, in Iraq. The Hanging Gardens' name is derived from the Greek word κρεμαστός (kremastós, lit. 'overhanging'), which has a broader meaning than the modern English word &quot;hanging&quot; and refers to trees being planted on a raised structure such as a terrace.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to one legend, the Hanging Gardens were built alongside a grand palace known as The Marvel of Mankind, by the Neo-Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar II (who ruled between 605 and 562 BC), for his Median wife Queen Amytis, because she missed the green hills and valleys of her homeland. This was attested to by the Babylonian priest Berossus, writing in about 290 BC, a description that was later quoted by Josephus. The construction of the Hanging Gardens has also been attributed to the legendary queen Semiramis and they have been called the Hanging Gardens of Semiramis as an alternative name.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Hanging Gardens are the only one of the Seven Wonders for which the location has not been definitively established.[6] There are no extant Babylonian texts that mention the gardens, and no definitive archaeological evidence has been found in Babylon. Three theories have been suggested to account for this: firstly, that they were purely mythical, and the descriptions found in ancient Greek and Roman writings (including those of Strabo, Diodorus Siculus and Quintus Curtius Rufus) represented a romantic ideal of an eastern garden; secondly, that they existed in Babylon, but were destroyed sometime around the first century AD; and thirdly, that the legend refers to a well-documented garden that the Assyrian King Sennacherib (704–681 BC) built in his capital city of Nineveh on the River Tigris, near the modern city of Mosul.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Plants**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The gardens, as depicted in artworks, featured blossoming flowers, ripe fruit, burbling waterfalls and terraces exuberant with rich foliage. Based on Babylonian literature, tradition, and the environmental characteristics of the area, some of the following plants may have been found in the gardens:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Olea europaea&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Cydonia oblonga&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Pyrus communis&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Ficus carica&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Prunus dulcis&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Vitis vinifera&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Phoenix dactylifera&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Tamarix aphylla&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Pistacia atlantica&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Imported plant varieties that may have been present in the gardens include the cedar, cypress, ebony, pomegranate, plum, rosewood, terebinth, juniper, oak, ash tree, fir, myrrh, walnut and willow. Some of these plants were suspended over the terraces and draped over its walls with arches underneath.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; *The &quot;Garden Party&quot; relief depicting Ashurbanipal with his wife seated under a pergola of climbing grapevines with hanging grapes, also small birds, surrounded with fruiting date palms and pine trees from the North Palace, Nineveh, c. 645 BC.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanging_Gardens_of_Babylon&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/98BoH.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28564" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10321" RevisionGUID="9e35feac-1563-436c-87f8-4b8cebcc7790" CreationDate="2022-02-06T14:08:33.673" UserId="3491" Text="Originally, the Succubus and the Incubus were thought to be responsible for [sleep paralysis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis), a frightening experience that is understandably associated with demonic forces.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As such, there is little basis to assume these demons mingle with each-other, as we only know of their interactions with humans. I'm sure there are later myths that consider this question, and may answer the question either in the positive, or the negative. However, that would only seem to an answer the question for demons in particular, and not specific to these demons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So in short, not that we know of." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28566" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10309" RevisionGUID="2c3334d8-3960-4c2e-83e8-d850ce9e55cc" CreationDate="2022-02-08T00:37:28.660" UserId="6920" Comment="expand a point" Text="The Peach Blossom Valley.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia ascribes to a specific literary work [The Peach Blossom Spring][1], which may have been the origin, but there have been many forms of it:  a man stumbles on a hidden, tranquil, Arcadian valley, where the inhabitants believe China to still be ruled by an dynasty that is several dynasties in the past.  Modern variants, for instance, think that China is still an empire.  It does not, in fact, have things of significance, it's just the place where they live.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Peach_Blossom_Spring" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28567" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10322" RevisionGUID="7e7ceb4f-bad2-4203-a88e-faa7618aec0b" CreationDate="2022-02-08T01:05:52.913" UserId="8896" Text="The LDS scriptures declare that the ultimate goal of a Mormon is to become a god and procreate for all eternity in their own worlds. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why is the goal to become a god in their own world and rule over it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28569" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10322" RevisionGUID="7e7ceb4f-bad2-4203-a88e-faa7618aec0b" CreationDate="2022-02-08T01:05:52.913" UserId="8896" Text="Why do Mormons believe they will become gods when they die?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28570" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10322" RevisionGUID="7e7ceb4f-bad2-4203-a88e-faa7618aec0b" CreationDate="2022-02-08T01:05:52.913" UserId="8896" Text="|abrahamic-religions|afterlife|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28571" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10320" RevisionGUID="96054dce-5259-4cf1-bfa6-e32c44d2b8d5" CreationDate="2022-02-08T13:29:53.830" UserId="1241" Comment="added 2791 characters in body" Text="**Are there other Gardens of Eden?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Hanging Gardens of Babylon comes to mind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The [**Hanging Gardens of Babylon**][1] were one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World listed by Hellenic culture. They were described as a remarkable feat of engineering with an ascending series of tiered gardens containing a wide variety of trees, shrubs, and vines, resembling a large green mountain constructed of mud bricks. It was said to have been built in the ancient city of Babylon, near present-day Hillah, Babil province, in Iraq. The Hanging Gardens' name is derived from the Greek word κρεμαστός (kremastós, lit. 'overhanging'), which has a broader meaning than the modern English word &quot;hanging&quot; and refers to trees being planted on a raised structure such as a terrace.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to one legend, the Hanging Gardens were built alongside a grand palace known as The Marvel of Mankind, by the Neo-Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar II (who ruled between 605 and 562 BC), for his Median wife Queen Amytis, because she missed the green hills and valleys of her homeland. This was attested to by the Babylonian priest Berossus, writing in about 290 BC, a description that was later quoted by Josephus. The construction of the Hanging Gardens has also been attributed to the legendary queen Semiramis and they have been called the Hanging Gardens of Semiramis as an alternative name.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Hanging Gardens are the only one of the Seven Wonders for which the location has not been definitively established.[6] There are no extant Babylonian texts that mention the gardens, and no definitive archaeological evidence has been found in Babylon. Three theories have been suggested to account for this: firstly, that they were purely mythical, and the descriptions found in ancient Greek and Roman writings (including those of Strabo, Diodorus Siculus and Quintus Curtius Rufus) represented a romantic ideal of an eastern garden; secondly, that they existed in Babylon, but were destroyed sometime around the first century AD; and thirdly, that the legend refers to a well-documented garden that the Assyrian King Sennacherib (704–681 BC) built in his capital city of Nineveh on the River Tigris, near the modern city of Mosul.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Plants**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The gardens, as depicted in artworks, featured blossoming flowers, ripe fruit, burbling waterfalls and terraces exuberant with rich foliage. Based on Babylonian literature, tradition, and the environmental characteristics of the area, some of the following plants may have been found in the gardens:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Olea europaea&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Cydonia oblonga&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Pyrus communis&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Ficus carica&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Prunus dulcis&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Vitis vinifera&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Phoenix dactylifera&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Tamarix aphylla&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; - Pistacia atlantica&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Imported plant varieties that may have been present in the gardens include the cedar, cypress, ebony, pomegranate, plum, rosewood, terebinth, juniper, oak, ash tree, fir, myrrh, walnut and willow. Some of these plants were suspended over the terraces and draped over its walls with arches underneath.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; *The &quot;Garden Party&quot; relief depicting Ashurbanipal with his wife seated under a pergola of climbing grapevines with hanging grapes, also small birds, surrounded with fruiting date palms and pine trees from the North Palace, Nineveh, c. 645 BC.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An Oxford scholar believes that this Hanging Garden was at Nineveh and not Babylon. This is where the Prophet Jonah preached repentance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to Oxford University, Dalley, who is a scholar in ancient Mesopotamian languages, found evidence in new translations of the ancient texts of King Sennacherib that describe his own “unrivaled palace” and a “wonder for all peoples.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Recent excavations around Nineveh, near the modern-day Iraqi city of Mosul, have uncovered evidence of an extensive aqueduct system that delivered water from the mountains with the inscription: “Sennacherib king of the world…Over a great distance I had a watercourse directed to the environs of Nineveh.” Bas reliefs from the royal palace in Nineveh depicted a lush garden watered by an aqueduct, and unlike the flat surroundings of Babylon, the more rugged topography around the Assyrian capital would have made the logistical challenges in elevating water to the gardens far easier for an ancient civilization to overcome.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dalley explains that the reason for the confusion of the location of the gardens could be due to the Assyrian conquering of Babylon in 689 B.C. Following the takeover, Nineveh was referred to as the “New Babylon,” and Sennacherib even renamed the city gates after those of Babylon’s entrances. Dalley’s assertions could debunk thoughts that the elusive ancient wonder was an “historical mirage,” but they could also prove that the Hanging Gardens of Babylon are mislabeled and should truly be the Hanging Gardens of Nineveh. - [Hanging Gardens Existed, but not in Babylon][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Assyrian kings created a slice of paradise on earth with their exotic botanical gardens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Gardens fit for a king**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Assyrian kings built on a lavish scale. Ashurbanipal’s capital at Nineveh was a vast metropolis and the palaces were a symbol of the King’s wealth and power. However, it wasn’t just the architecture that made the royal residences impressive. Surrounding the palaces were orchards, game parks and lush and exotic gardens that evoked a paradise on earth.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Assyrian kings boasted in inscriptions about collecting plants and animals from across the empire for the gardens. Orchards were planted with a plethora of plants, alongside pomegranate, pear, fig and olive trees. In creating these idyllic settings, rulers demonstrated their ability to bring abundance and harmony to the world.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ashurbanipal claimed:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; I planted alongside the palace a botanical garden, which has all types of trees and every fruit and vegetable.” &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Paradise on earth: the gardens of Ashurbanipal][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanging_Gardens_of_Babylon&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/98BoH.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.history.com/news/hanging-gardens-existed-but-not-in-babylon&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://blog.britishmuseum.org/paradise-on-earth-the-gardens-of-ashurbanipal/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28574" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10324" RevisionGUID="1874a9dd-8987-4a7a-844b-31e166e105fb" CreationDate="2022-02-09T09:15:52.567" UserId="8991" Text="If you look up &quot;Basilisk&quot; in a book of medieval monsters or art, or do a Google image search for &quot;medieval Basilisk,&quot; you will find that a Cockatrice &amp; Basilisk are the exact same thing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Basilisks not being part chicken is a retcon made in the internet era &amp; popularized by the Harry Potter movies." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28576" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10325" RevisionGUID="9167e3c5-6cc4-4274-becf-e2ab11b40404" CreationDate="2022-02-09T15:53:37.950" UserId="8994" Text="While the relationships in the Greek mythology are fluid, there is some notion of the marriage between Greek gods. My question is - is there any official same-sex marriage in the Greek mythology or some kind of relationships that are like marriage? Or maybe all same-sex relationships (e. g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_themes_in_classical_mythology) were for the pleasure of body and soul only?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I can not find such marriages in the internet and I guess that there are none simply because the ancient society has no similar notion of same-sex marriage in the human domain." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28578" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10325" RevisionGUID="9167e3c5-6cc4-4274-becf-e2ab11b40404" CreationDate="2022-02-09T15:53:37.950" UserId="8994" Text="Is there any &quot;official&quot; same-sex marriage in the Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28579" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10325" RevisionGUID="9167e3c5-6cc4-4274-becf-e2ab11b40404" CreationDate="2022-02-09T15:53:37.950" UserId="8994" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28581" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10326" RevisionGUID="88929d4c-e9a5-4d05-89c9-8ad1fda575b2" CreationDate="2022-02-09T21:19:10.780" UserId="398" Text="Yes, several. Notably, a possible direct precursor to the Eden myth is found in the description of Dilmun in a myth of Enki. I'll quote [Kramer's summary](https://www.penn.museum/sites/expedition/the-indus-civilization-and-dilmun-the-sumerian-paradise-land/):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dilmun, a land described as “pure,” “clean,” and “bright,” a land which knows neither sickness nor death, had been lacking originally in fresh, life-giving water. The tutelary goddess of Dilmun, Ninsikilla by name, therefore pleaded with Enki, who is both her husband and father, and the latter orders the sun-god Utu to fill Dilmun with sweet water brought up from the earth’s watersources; Dilmun is thus turned into a divine garden green with grain-yielding fields and acres. In this paradise of the gods eight plants are made to sprout by Ninhursag, the great mother goddess of the Sumerians, perhaps more originally by Mother Earth. She succeeds in bringing these plants into being by an intricate process involving three generations of goddesses all begotten by Enki and born without pain or travail. But because Enki wanted to taste them, his messenger, the two-faced god Isimud, plucks these plants one by one and gives them to his master who proceeds to eat them each in turn. Whereupon the angered Ninhursag pronounces the curse of death against Enki and vanishes from among the gods. Enki’s health at once begins to fail and eight of his organs become sick. As Enki sinks fast, the great gods sit in the dust, seemingly unable to cope with the situation. Whereupon the fox comes to the rescue and after being promised a reward, he succeeds the dying water god. She seats him by her vulva and after inquiring which eight organs of his body ache, she brings into existence eight corresponding deities–one of these is Enshag, the Lord of Dilmun–and Enki is brought back to life and health.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The connection between the two is most clearly stated by [Kramer in his book on the Sumerians](https://archive.org/details/sumerianstheirhi00samu/page/148/mode/2up?q=eden&amp;view=theater):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And there is good indication that the Biblical paradise, too, which is described as a garden planted *eastward* in Eden, from whose waters flow the four world rivers, including the Tigris and the Euphrates, may have originally been identical with Dilmun, the paradise-land." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28583" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="10325" RevisionGUID="8e32c5f4-1ca4-4b1c-bedb-6874d562814f" CreationDate="2022-02-11T10:14:23.863" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28588" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10329" RevisionGUID="cca1090a-6e31-4bf8-9f2e-82569362d17a" CreationDate="2022-02-12T12:24:03.250" UserId="8999" Text=" I will say Snorris' works can not be simply brushed off as fiction. There are countless stories of this type from several cultures, and they in many ways connect or resemble each other. So to count his stories as imagined or made up I believe is unfair. Although, I do not see how he could have had anything to do with influencing Christianity. Seeings how Christians was born in AD 30-35. His accounts not even written until well after 1200's. So, as far as being the soul influencer is not even logical, in my opinion. I would also like to include the fact that the Catholic religion was far more of an influencer. The Roman Empire actually adopted Christianity as it's religion in 380. This around the time Christianity separated from the Jewish background, which was where it began. Do to the newly founded doctrine at in motion, with help from the Roman Empire.  &#xD;&#xA; By the 1st century the religion had already began separating itself into sects, due to unlike ideals about Scripture. In 364-378 successor Theodosius made it legal that only those that followed Trinitarian Christianity would be considered, Christian Catholics. All others were considered heretics and their practices illegal.Docetism, was out to directly erase the ideal of the Nicene Creed. Wanting all to believe and honor their new Orthodox Christianity. Which by the way was completely created and established, merely due to what they told their followers the Scripture was saying, not actually what it said or depicted. Although the Roman Catholics adopted Christianity, they only adopted the name. Reason being that after the 4th century, there were numerous sects made for Christians. As they all had their own opinion on what the Scriptures depicted and what each sect deemed depicted, by the Scriptures.  It wasn't until the begining of the Medieval Era, that they finally let it be known they were never really &quot;Christian&quot; they still used the term, but returned to Roman Catholic. And by 1120 they had left a trail of corruption and devastation, effecting multiple nations and countries. Persecuting relentlessly, anyone whom did not confirm and obey. &#xD;&#xA;I would have to say this would be a more satisfactory example of influence on Christianity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28597" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10331" RevisionGUID="7986d4b7-4ac0-4dd2-9aed-27c4daf35492" CreationDate="2022-02-14T22:40:15.797" UserId="9008" Text="I believe it should be noted that Mexico (location of the Toltec empire) is 8 hours behind Israel. Pretty much halfway across the world. Now I don't know about you, but to me, it seems like it'd be more likely for the Toltecs to have seen the Moon frozen in the sky rather than the Sun.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Israelites obviously lived in a place where it was the Sun they witnessed as frozen. So the time of day when Joshua made his prayer must've been somewhere between sunrise and sunset. This varies on the season, of course.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Cambridge researchers (2017), the Sun and the Moon were frozen in between October and November (specifically October 30th). So the sunrise time had to have been at 6 AM (approximately). The sunset time had to have been at 5 PM (still approximately). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Mexico time (CST), that is 10 PM and 9 AM respectively.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mexico sunrise time for that date would be 7 AM, and sunset time would be 6 PM (still approximating).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The amount of hours where it is even remotely possible for the Toltecs to have seen a Sun frozen in the sky instead of a Moon is: 2 hours (7 AM - 9 AM). That means the probability of the Toltecs witnessing a frozen Sun is 2/15 or **13.3%**. The probability of the Toltecs witnessing a frozen Moon instead of a Sun is 13/15 or **86.6%**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**It is highly unlikely that the frozen Sun that the Toltecs witnessed the was same frozen Sun that Joshua asked God to stop**, for those very reasons. That isn't to say impossible, it's just unlikely. There are so many variables involved that I simply don't know. And **I can't possibly know for sure what happened on that day without being there myself.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*If you want, you can try to see how I came to this conclusion, yourself. Please note that I approximated ***a lot***.*" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28599" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10331" RevisionGUID="e618bf51-0e91-4006-80ee-8fd1ebc68d23" CreationDate="2022-02-14T22:56:28.720" UserId="9008" Comment="Commented on the previous answer" Text="I believe it should be noted that Mexico (location of the Toltec empire) is 8 hours behind Israel. Pretty much halfway across the world. Now I don't know about you, but to me, it seems like it'd be more likely for the Toltecs to have seen the Moon frozen in the sky rather than the Sun.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Israelites obviously lived in a place where it was the Sun they witnessed as frozen. So the time of day when Joshua made his prayer must've been somewhere between sunrise and sunset. This varies on the season, of course.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Cambridge researchers (2017), the Sun and the Moon were frozen in between October and November (specifically October 30th). So the sunrise time had to have been at 6 AM (approximately). The sunset time had to have been at 5 PM (still approximately). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Mexico time (CST), that is 10 PM and 9 AM respectively.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mexico sunrise time for that date would be 7 AM, and sunset time would be 6 PM (still approximating).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The amount of hours where it is even remotely possible for the Toltecs to have seen a Sun frozen in the sky instead of a Moon is: 2 hours (7 AM - 9 AM). That means the probability of the Toltecs witnessing a frozen Sun is 2/15 or **13.3%**. The probability of the Toltecs witnessing a frozen Moon instead of a Sun is 13/15 or **86.6%**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**It is highly unlikely that the frozen Sun that the Toltecs witnessed the was same frozen Sun that Joshua asked God to stop**, for those very reasons. That isn't to say impossible, it's just unlikely. There are so many variables involved that I simply don't know. And **I can't possibly know for sure what happened on that day without being there myself.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*If you want, you can try to see how I came to this conclusion, yourself. Please note that I approximated a lot.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**FINAL WORD(s)**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So I saw the previous answer about the dates between the two events being separated by 1354 years. Although I find their findings to be likely (One thousand years a part sounds about right), there are always assumptions and approximations involved in the process to reach such conclusions. **There are simply too many variables we don't know!** Even in my findings I made assumptions and approximations. However, my approximations aren't that big of a deal for a time period of One day when compared to One thousand plus years." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28600" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10329" RevisionGUID="5a25c392-981b-4909-ab20-9ce9fa319da1" CreationDate="2022-02-15T18:05:38.593" UserId="7095" Comment="Deleted extra spaces, corrected grammar, spelling and punctuation." Text="I will say Snorri's works cannot be simply brushed off as fiction. There are countless stories of this type from several cultures, and they in many ways connect or resemble each other. So to count his stories as imagined or made up I believe is unfair. Although, I do not see how he could have had anything to do with influencing Christianity. Seeings how Christianity was born in AD 30-35. His accounts not even written until well after 1200's. So, as far as being the soul influencer is not even logical, in my opinion. I would also like to include the fact that the Catholic religion was far more of an influencer. The Roman Empire actually adopted Christianity as its religion in 380. This around the time Christianity separated from the Jewish background, which was where it began. Due to the newly founded doctrine at in motion, with help from the Roman Empire.  &#xD;&#xA;By the 1st century the religion had already began separating itself into sects, due to unlike ideals about Scripture. In 364-378 successor Theodosius made it legal that only those that followed Trinitarian Christianity would be considered, Christian Catholics. All others were considered heretics and their practices illegal. Docetism, was out to directly erase the ideal of the Nicene Creed. Wanting all to believe and honor their new Orthodox Christianity. Which, by the way, was completely created and established, merely due to what they told their followers the Scripture was saying, not actually what it said or depicted. Although the Roman Catholics adopted Christianity, they only adopted the name. Reason being that after the 4th century, there were numerous sects made for Christians. As they all had their own opinion on what the Scriptures depicted and what each sect deemed depicted, by the Scriptures. It wasn't until the begining of the Medieval Era, that they finally let it be known they were never really &quot;Christian&quot; they still used the term, but returned to Roman Catholic. And by 1120 they had left a trail of corruption and devastation, effecting multiple nations and countries. Persecuting relentlessly, anyone whom did not confirm and obey. &#xD;&#xA;I would have to say this would be a more satisfactory example of influence on Christianity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28601" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="10329" RevisionGUID="5a25c392-981b-4909-ab20-9ce9fa319da1" CreationDate="2022-02-15T18:05:38.593" Comment="Proposed by 7095 approved by 53, 5726 edit id of 1884" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28603" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5312" RevisionGUID="25266cce-5da5-4495-a046-2d35807ac766" CreationDate="2022-02-16T16:05:55.547" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="28604" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10332" RevisionGUID="5b5f84fd-7a58-442d-ba01-5ffe29536c8b" CreationDate="2022-02-17T10:08:58.927" UserId="7106" Text="Sources for Irish and Scandinavian mythologies are often tainted with Christian symbolism as the persons that recorded it were Christian and probably wrote about it centuries later. Was there ever a Christianization of Egyptian myths? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am looking for some sort of text where a common Egyptian tale has some evident elements of Christianity incorporated in it. There is a gap of a few centuries of Christianity in Roman Egypt were that could have happened but maybe it was too short lived?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most sources I could find deal with possible influence of Egyptian myths on Abrahamic religions, but I would like to know if the opposite ever had place. The same question could be asked about Persian and Islam influence on the myths." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28606" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10332" RevisionGUID="5b5f84fd-7a58-442d-ba01-5ffe29536c8b" CreationDate="2022-02-17T10:08:58.927" UserId="7106" Text="Is there any evidence of Christianization of Egyptian myths?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28607" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10332" RevisionGUID="5b5f84fd-7a58-442d-ba01-5ffe29536c8b" CreationDate="2022-02-17T10:08:58.927" UserId="7106" Text="|egyptian|christianity|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28608" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10332" RevisionGUID="d7f1f6c2-99b6-4342-b89a-d37e60c52113" CreationDate="2022-02-17T16:14:41.383" UserId="7106" Comment="deleted 5 characters in body" Text="Christian symbolism can be found in sources for Irish and Scandinavian mythologies,  as the authors that recorded it were Christian and probably wrote about it centuries later. Was there ever a Christianization of Egyptian myths? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am looking for some sort of text where a common Egyptian tale has some evident elements of Christianity incorporated in it. There is a gap of a few centuries of Christianity in Roman Egypt were that could have happened but maybe it was too short lived?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most sources I could find deal with possible influence of Egyptian myths on Abrahamic religions, but I would like to know if the opposite ever had place. The same question could be asked about Persian and Islam influence on the myths." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28609" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10333" RevisionGUID="d4c44b9c-ac53-4cbb-a8df-586d17a80fb1" CreationDate="2022-02-18T03:13:34.363" UserId="9019" Text="Are there any myths about beings/items/creatures that talked with people in a friendly way? Almost as if the being was a therapist to the human or something? I can think of the caladrius that physically took away illness, but is there something like this that relieves more emotional/mental issues? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28611" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10333" RevisionGUID="d4c44b9c-ac53-4cbb-a8df-586d17a80fb1" CreationDate="2022-02-18T03:13:34.363" UserId="9019" Text="Myths about creatures/items/beings that talked with people or took away their problems?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28612" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10333" RevisionGUID="d4c44b9c-ac53-4cbb-a8df-586d17a80fb1" CreationDate="2022-02-18T03:13:34.363" UserId="9019" Text="|myth-identification|mythical-creatures|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28614" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10333" RevisionGUID="d12c387a-f6c5-4652-8f40-2c76c17991b7" CreationDate="2022-02-19T05:19:39.880" UserId="9019" Comment="added 153 characters in body" Text="Are there any myths about beings/items/creatures that talked with people in a friendly way? Almost as if the being was a therapist to the human or something? I can think of the caladrius that physically took away illness, but is there something like this that relieves more emotional/mental issues? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;EDIT: I’m looking for any specific story from any mythology or legend or folklore. I’m just looking for a name or list of these stories if possible. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28616" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10326" RevisionGUID="b567d992-fd1f-40d6-a310-8ee78e95bcf1" CreationDate="2022-02-21T00:12:25.497" UserId="398" Comment="added 1011 characters in body" Text="Yes. Notably, a possible direct precursor to the Eden myth is found in the description of Dilmun in a myth of Enki. I'll quote [Kramer's summary](https://www.penn.museum/sites/expedition/the-indus-civilization-and-dilmun-the-sumerian-paradise-land/):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dilmun, a land described as “pure,” “clean,” and “bright,” a land which knows neither sickness nor death, had been lacking originally in fresh, life-giving water. The tutelary goddess of Dilmun, Ninsikilla by name, therefore pleaded with Enki, who is both her husband and father, and the latter orders the sun-god Utu to fill Dilmun with sweet water brought up from the earth’s watersources; Dilmun is thus turned into a divine garden green with grain-yielding fields and acres. In this paradise of the gods eight plants are made to sprout by Ninhursag, the great mother goddess of the Sumerians, perhaps more originally by Mother Earth. She succeeds in bringing these plants into being by an intricate process involving three generations of goddesses all begotten by Enki and born without pain or travail. But because Enki wanted to taste them, his messenger, the two-faced god Isimud, plucks these plants one by one and gives them to his master who proceeds to eat them each in turn. Whereupon the angered Ninhursag pronounces the curse of death against Enki and vanishes from among the gods. Enki’s health at once begins to fail and eight of his organs become sick. As Enki sinks fast, the great gods sit in the dust, seemingly unable to cope with the situation. Whereupon the fox comes to the rescue and after being promised a reward, he succeeds the dying water god. She seats him by her vulva and after inquiring which eight organs of his body ache, she brings into existence eight corresponding deities–one of these is Enshag, the Lord of Dilmun–and Enki is brought back to life and health.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The connection between the two is most clearly stated by [Kramer in his book on the Sumerians](https://archive.org/details/sumerianstheirhi00samu/page/148/mode/2up?q=eden&amp;view=theater):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And there is good indication that the Biblical paradise, too, which is described as a garden planted *eastward* in Eden, from whose waters flow the four world rivers, including the Tigris and the Euphrates, may have originally been identical with Dilmun, the paradise-land.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aside from the already-mentioned Peach Blossom Valley, post-Classical depictions of the Garden of Hesperides closely mirror Eden, as Wikipedia notes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The garden of the Hesperides in Greek mythology was somewhat similar to the Jewish concept of the Garden of Eden, and by the 16th century a larger intellectual association was made in the Cranach painting. In this painting, only the action that takes place there identifies the setting as distinct from the Garden of the Hesperides, with its golden fruit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other contenders include [Avalon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalon), [Goloka](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goloka), [Tir na nOg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%ADr_na_n%C3%93g), [Emain Ablach](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emain_Ablach) (of which Avalon might be a doublet), and perhaps Goat Island (Homer's *Odyssey* 9.116–141), though the latter instead is perhaps too wild to count; it's more idyllic than paradise. Besides Goat Island, special trees figure prominently in their mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28617" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10326" RevisionGUID="082afa26-ebba-43d0-8ae6-b079be58afcb" CreationDate="2022-02-21T00:19:38.493" UserId="398" Comment="added 1011 characters in body" Text="There are decent parallels, but finding something exactly as you describe is harder. Notably, a possible direct precursor to the Eden myth is found in the description of Dilmun in a myth of Enki. I'll quote [Kramer's summary](https://www.penn.museum/sites/expedition/the-indus-civilization-and-dilmun-the-sumerian-paradise-land/):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dilmun, a land described as “pure,” “clean,” and “bright,” a land which knows neither sickness nor death, had been lacking originally in fresh, life-giving water. The tutelary goddess of Dilmun, Ninsikilla by name, therefore pleaded with Enki, who is both her husband and father, and the latter orders the sun-god Utu to fill Dilmun with sweet water brought up from the earth’s watersources; Dilmun is thus turned into a divine garden green with grain-yielding fields and acres. In this paradise of the gods eight plants are made to sprout by Ninhursag, the great mother goddess of the Sumerians, perhaps more originally by Mother Earth. She succeeds in bringing these plants into being by an intricate process involving three generations of goddesses all begotten by Enki and born without pain or travail. But because Enki wanted to taste them, his messenger, the two-faced god Isimud, plucks these plants one by one and gives them to his master who proceeds to eat them each in turn. Whereupon the angered Ninhursag pronounces the curse of death against Enki and vanishes from among the gods. Enki’s health at once begins to fail and eight of his organs become sick. As Enki sinks fast, the great gods sit in the dust, seemingly unable to cope with the situation. Whereupon the fox comes to the rescue and after being promised a reward, he succeeds the dying water god. She seats him by her vulva and after inquiring which eight organs of his body ache, she brings into existence eight corresponding deities–one of these is Enshag, the Lord of Dilmun–and Enki is brought back to life and health.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The connection between the two is most clearly stated by [Kramer in his book on the Sumerians](https://archive.org/details/sumerianstheirhi00samu/page/148/mode/2up?q=eden&amp;view=theater):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And there is good indication that the Biblical paradise, too, which is described as a garden planted *eastward* in Eden, from whose waters flow the four world rivers, including the Tigris and the Euphrates, may have originally been identical with Dilmun, the paradise-land.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aside from the already-mentioned Peach Blossom Valley, post-Classical depictions of the Garden of Hesperides closely mirror Eden, as Wikipedia notes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The garden of the Hesperides in Greek mythology was somewhat similar to the Jewish concept of the Garden of Eden, and by the 16th century a larger intellectual association was made in the Cranach painting. In this painting, only the action that takes place there identifies the setting as distinct from the Garden of the Hesperides, with its golden fruit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the connection is less what's found in the earliest Greek sources and more about what later traditions considered.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other contenders include [Avalon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalon), [Goloka](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goloka), [Tir na nOg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%ADr_na_n%C3%93g), [Emain Ablach](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emain_Ablach) (of which Avalon might be a doublet), and perhaps Goat Island (Homer's *Odyssey* 9.116–141), though the latter instead is perhaps too wild to count; it's more idyllic than paradise. Besides Goat Island, special trees figure prominently in their mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Avalon isn't necessarily connected with creation, but Emain Ablach was where the Celtic god Lug Lamfada was reared. That sounds similar to Zeus' rearing on Crete, so there may be some primordial elements here. This is backed up by two further connections: it's the home of the sea god Lir (the sea is often seen as a source of life) and it was [glossed](https://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095749390) as the &quot;island of women,&quot; which potentially speaks to the generative power of women. This is speculative." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28618" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10326" RevisionGUID="e9829a68-f764-4d1f-970c-ae171ae85b54" CreationDate="2022-02-21T00:25:06.630" UserId="398" Comment="added 1011 characters in body" Text="There are decent parallels, but finding something exactly as you describe is harder. Notably, a possible direct precursor to the Eden myth is found in the description of Dilmun in a myth of Enki. I'll quote [Kramer's summary](https://www.penn.museum/sites/expedition/the-indus-civilization-and-dilmun-the-sumerian-paradise-land/):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dilmun, a land described as “pure,” “clean,” and “bright,” a land which knows neither sickness nor death, had been lacking originally in fresh, life-giving water. The tutelary goddess of Dilmun, Ninsikilla by name, therefore pleaded with Enki, who is both her husband and father, and the latter orders the sun-god Utu to fill Dilmun with sweet water brought up from the earth’s watersources; Dilmun is thus turned into a divine garden green with grain-yielding fields and acres. In this paradise of the gods eight plants are made to sprout by Ninhursag, the great mother goddess of the Sumerians, perhaps more originally by Mother Earth. She succeeds in bringing these plants into being by an intricate process involving three generations of goddesses all begotten by Enki and born without pain or travail. But because Enki wanted to taste them, his messenger, the two-faced god Isimud, plucks these plants one by one and gives them to his master who proceeds to eat them each in turn. Whereupon the angered Ninhursag pronounces the curse of death against Enki and vanishes from among the gods. Enki’s health at once begins to fail and eight of his organs become sick. As Enki sinks fast, the great gods sit in the dust, seemingly unable to cope with the situation. Whereupon the fox comes to the rescue and after being promised a reward, he succeeds the dying water god. She seats him by her vulva and after inquiring which eight organs of his body ache, she brings into existence eight corresponding deities–one of these is Enshag, the Lord of Dilmun–and Enki is brought back to life and health.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The connection between the two is most clearly stated by [Kramer in his book on the Sumerians](https://archive.org/details/sumerianstheirhi00samu/page/148/mode/2up?q=eden&amp;view=theater):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And there is good indication that the Biblical paradise, too, which is described as a garden planted *eastward* in Eden, from whose waters flow the four world rivers, including the Tigris and the Euphrates, may have originally been identical with Dilmun, the paradise-land.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aside from the already-mentioned Peach Blossom Valley, post-Classical depictions of the Garden of Hesperides closely mirror Eden, as Wikipedia notes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The garden of the Hesperides in Greek mythology was somewhat similar to the Jewish concept of the Garden of Eden, and by the 16th century a larger intellectual association was made in the Cranach painting. In this painting, only the action that takes place there identifies the setting as distinct from the Garden of the Hesperides, with its golden fruit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the connection is less what's found in the earliest Greek sources and more about what later traditions considered.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other contenders include [Avalon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalon), [Goloka](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goloka), [Tir na nOg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%ADr_na_n%C3%93g), [Emain Ablach](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emain_Ablach) (of which Avalon might be a doublet), and perhaps Goat Island (Homer's *Odyssey* 9.116–141), though the latter instead is perhaps too wild to count; it's more idyllic than paradise. Besides Goat Island, special trees figure prominently in their mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Avalon isn't necessarily connected with creation, but Emain Ablach was where the Celtic god Lug Lamfada was reared. That sounds similar to Zeus' rearing on Crete, so there may be some primordial elements here. This is backed up by two further connections: it's the home of the sea god Lir (the sea is often seen as a source of life) and it was [glossed](https://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095749390) as the &quot;island of women,&quot; which potentially speaks to the generative power of women. This is speculative, of course.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Two traits of Tir na nOg I want to highlight from the Wikipedia article prove strong to be strong parallels to Eden, namely its connection human origins and its beautiful yet deadly forests:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **The god that rules this region is said to be the first ancestor of the human race** and the god of the dead, and in the surviving tales is almost always named as Manannán mac Lir. In the tales, Manannán is usually described as a warrior and is sometimes accompanied by his golden-haired wife or daughter, who sometimes wears a golden helmet.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Tír na nÓg is described as a beautiful place (a forested wilderness or flowery meadow), but it is usually dangerous or hostile to human visitors.**" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28619" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10320" RevisionGUID="5a078d3c-f744-45fa-91ce-38b94fb8197f" CreationDate="2022-02-21T09:00:16.620" UserId="108" Comment="deleted 3295 characters in body" Text="**Are there other Gardens of Eden?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [**Hanging Gardens of Babylon**][1] comes to mind. An Oxford scholar believes that this Hanging Garden was at Nineveh and not Babylon. This is where the Prophet Jonah preached repentance.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to Oxford University, Dalley, who is a scholar in ancient Mesopotamian languages, found evidence in new translations of the ancient texts of King Sennacherib that describe his own “unrivaled palace” and a “wonder for all peoples.”&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Recent excavations around Nineveh, near the modern-day Iraqi city of Mosul, have uncovered evidence of an extensive aqueduct system that delivered water from the mountains with the inscription: “Sennacherib king of the world…Over a great distance I had a watercourse directed to the environs of Nineveh.” Bas reliefs from the royal palace in Nineveh depicted a lush garden watered by an aqueduct, and unlike the flat surroundings of Babylon, the more rugged topography around the Assyrian capital would have made the logistical challenges in elevating water to the gardens far easier for an ancient civilization to overcome.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dalley explains that the reason for the confusion of the location of the gardens could be due to the Assyrian conquering of Babylon in 689 B.C. Following the takeover, Nineveh was referred to as the “New Babylon,” and Sennacherib even renamed the city gates after those of Babylon’s entrances. Dalley’s assertions could debunk thoughts that the elusive ancient wonder was an “historical mirage,” but they could also prove that the Hanging Gardens of Babylon are mislabeled and should truly be the Hanging Gardens of Nineveh. - [Hanging Gardens Existed, but not in Babylon][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Assyrian kings created a slice of paradise on earth with their exotic botanical gardens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Gardens fit for a king**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Assyrian kings built on a lavish scale. Ashurbanipal’s capital at Nineveh was a vast metropolis and the palaces were a symbol of the King’s wealth and power. However, it wasn’t just the architecture that made the royal residences impressive. Surrounding the palaces were orchards, game parks and lush and exotic gardens that evoked a paradise on earth.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Assyrian kings boasted in inscriptions about collecting plants and animals from across the empire for the gardens. Orchards were planted with a plethora of plants, alongside pomegranate, pear, fig and olive trees. In creating these idyllic settings, rulers demonstrated their ability to bring abundance and harmony to the world.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ashurbanipal claimed:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; I planted alongside the palace a botanical garden, which has all types of trees and every fruit and vegetable.” &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Paradise on earth: the gardens of Ashurbanipal][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanging_Gardens_of_Babylon&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/98BoH.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.history.com/news/hanging-gardens-existed-but-not-in-babylon&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://blog.britishmuseum.org/paradise-on-earth-the-gardens-of-ashurbanipal/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28630" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10336" RevisionGUID="086cf44f-2fcb-428b-ac66-faf15bfbfe89" CreationDate="2022-02-28T11:47:42.983" UserId="9039" Text="It seems as if Hermes helped Zeus and other gods who sided with the Trojans in the war. What was his reason?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28632" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10336" RevisionGUID="086cf44f-2fcb-428b-ac66-faf15bfbfe89" CreationDate="2022-02-28T11:47:42.983" UserId="9039" Text="What was Hermes' reason for siding with the Greeks in the Trojan War?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28633" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10336" RevisionGUID="086cf44f-2fcb-428b-ac66-faf15bfbfe89" CreationDate="2022-02-28T11:47:42.983" UserId="9039" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28638" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10338" RevisionGUID="38267173-18e1-4923-99f2-7b32b1548a77" CreationDate="2022-03-02T04:25:30.000" UserId="8896" Text="I know about the Charites, the goddesses Aglaea, Euphrosyne, and Thalia. But there is apparently a younger Charites group?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28640" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10338" RevisionGUID="38267173-18e1-4923-99f2-7b32b1548a77" CreationDate="2022-03-02T04:25:30.000" UserId="8896" Text="In Greek mythology, who are the Younger Charites?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28641" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10338" RevisionGUID="38267173-18e1-4923-99f2-7b32b1548a77" CreationDate="2022-03-02T04:25:30.000" UserId="8896" Text="|greek|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28642" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10339" RevisionGUID="7775dfda-38c4-41c0-aef2-69dbab2ad4c8" CreationDate="2022-03-03T17:28:18.157" UserId="9049" Text="Like much of greek mythology, it all seems to be a bit of a mess and it depends on which long dead spirit of an ancient poet you ask. There is disagreement on both the number of [Charites/Graces](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charites) and their names.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The commonly known Charites, as presented by the poet Hesiod, are the daughters of Zeus and Eurynome: [Aglaea](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aglaea), [Euphrosyne](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphrosyne), and [Thalia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalia_(Grace))  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also [Pasithea](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasithea_(Charites)), a daughter of Hera and Dionysus, who is referred to by Homer as &quot;one of the younger Graces&quot; in the [Iliad](https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D14%3Acard%3D242). According to wikipedia she's considered a sister of the three above.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The poet Nonnus, on the other hand, names the three Charites as: Pasithea, Peitho and Aglaia. So we lost Euphrosyne and Thalia, and gained Peitho. The Spartans were more spartan, and made do with two: Cleta and Phaenna.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And then there are the daughters of Aglaea and Hephaestus: [Philophrosyne](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philophrosyne), [Euthenia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthenia), [Eupheme](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eupheme_(deity)), and [Eucleia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucleia). Who are also considered &quot;members of the younger Charites&quot; (according to wikipedia, but lacking clear citation)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So depending on where you encountered the term &quot;younger Charites&quot;, it might refer to the daughters of Aglaea, or any of the younger members of the Charites (however many there were - and which may or may not include the daughters of Aglaea)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28645" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10340" RevisionGUID="caea37df-d5eb-40cf-b7ad-97fa6175bdb1" CreationDate="2022-03-05T21:46:04.597" UserId="9057" Text="Also what a lot of people don't realize is that Celtic-Gaelic people are not native to the British Isles, that their culture was also spread completely across the European continent and they lived along side Germanic tribes. There are even tribes that go back thousands of years that are completely Norse-Gaelic or I guess in that guess it being before Norse-Gaels, they'd be Celto-Germanic tribes and ones would integrate with the other and assimilate  and become full Gaelic or vice versa full Germanic. the cultures being so close to each other and spread across all of Europe makes a lot of sense why each group Germanic or Celtic have such similarities in culture and myth." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28647" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10341" RevisionGUID="350a0f30-9479-4506-82fd-71bde29561d2" CreationDate="2022-03-06T10:01:48.433" UserId="8896" Text="Yoruba tradition often says that there are 400 + 1 Orisha, which is associated with a sacred number. Other sources suggest that the number is &quot;as many as you can think of, plus one more – an innumerable number&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So if it's as many as I can think of, can I think of infinity and it wouldn't be wrong?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28649" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10341" RevisionGUID="350a0f30-9479-4506-82fd-71bde29561d2" CreationDate="2022-03-06T10:01:48.433" UserId="8896" Text="Is the Yoruba pantheon infinite?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28650" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10341" RevisionGUID="350a0f30-9479-4506-82fd-71bde29561d2" CreationDate="2022-03-06T10:01:48.433" UserId="8896" Text="|pantheon|gods|africa|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28651" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10342" RevisionGUID="d20d143a-7ec6-4b37-909a-666fc0750293" CreationDate="2022-03-06T22:13:16.930" UserId="9061" Text="There was obviously pain and suffering in the world, was it seen as a punishment or was it just seen as something normal and there was no reason for it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28653" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10342" RevisionGUID="d20d143a-7ec6-4b37-909a-666fc0750293" CreationDate="2022-03-06T22:13:16.930" UserId="9061" Text="Why is there pain and suffering according to Norse mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28654" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10342" RevisionGUID="d20d143a-7ec6-4b37-909a-666fc0750293" CreationDate="2022-03-06T22:13:16.930" UserId="9061" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28655" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10343" RevisionGUID="a8229ef1-ae73-4e0a-ad20-93aa3f104db5" CreationDate="2022-03-06T22:58:31.177" UserId="8896" Text="I don't think the Ancient Norse thought much about pain and suffering, they probably welcomed it as they believed that dying in war was the honourable way to die while dying of old age or natural causes was seen as dishonourable and cowardice. Though I'm not 100% sure it's just my best guess on the matter. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28657" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10341" RevisionGUID="9a627c37-5ec0-4f96-891c-38cfd59e0dd1" CreationDate="2022-03-06T23:17:13.363" UserId="8896" Comment="added 128 characters in body" Text="Yoruba tradition often says that there are 400 + 1 Orisha, which is associated with a sacred number. Other sources suggest that the number is &quot;as many as you can think of, plus one more – an innumerable number&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So if it's as many as I can think of, can I think of infinity and it wouldn't be wrong?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://www.worldhistory.org/Orisha/#:~:text=The%20Seven%20Orishas&amp;text=As%20noted%2C%20their%20number%20is,one%20more%20one%20had%20missed." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28658" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10344" RevisionGUID="c1d10428-c501-47d8-a99b-db7b19339cd4" CreationDate="2022-03-08T07:27:04.023" UserId="9063" Text="I remember reading a story about someone who killed their parents because they thought their parents was their lover with someone else. The parents visited them and slept in their bed. But they didn't know that their parents came. They only realized after they killed their parents. I think it was Greek mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Anyone knows who is it about?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28660" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10344" RevisionGUID="c1d10428-c501-47d8-a99b-db7b19339cd4" CreationDate="2022-03-08T07:27:04.023" UserId="9063" Text="Name of Greek mythology about someone killing their parents" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28661" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10344" RevisionGUID="c1d10428-c501-47d8-a99b-db7b19339cd4" CreationDate="2022-03-08T07:27:04.023" UserId="9063" Text="|greek|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28663" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10345" RevisionGUID="e014c038-d775-4f22-8476-c7a654bb271a" CreationDate="2022-03-09T00:35:34.643" UserId="6920" Text="This is the legend attached to [Julian the Hospitaller][1], who may, himself, be legendary.  It is not Greek myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*The Golden Legend* recounts that witches cursed him to kill his parents at his birth, and his father heard them.  His mother prevented the father from killing him, but when he heard the story, he left to prevent it.  He married, his wife offered a traveling couple hospitality and her own bed for the night, and he returned, found them in it, and killed them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_the_Hospitaller" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28665" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10346" RevisionGUID="4604f99f-228b-40b9-829c-475bde1b990d" CreationDate="2022-03-09T10:16:33.467" UserId="53" Text="# Chenmunka&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would like to volunteer my services as part of the moderator team for this site.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have over fifty years experience of studying myths from around the world. This started from growing up in Glastonbury, the Isle of Avalon itself. I now live in Wiltshire, surrounded by many sites of significance in British and Celtic myth. This started my quest to see what other places and other myths were out there, looking for parallels and contrasts. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Irrespective of whether you call it religion, mythology, folklore or just a cracked pot-boiler, it fascinates me.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the 1990s I spent some time working in Korea. During which time I was able to look more deeply into far eastern mythology, including visiting the Tripitaka at Haeinsa.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have followed this site from its inception on Area51, having proposed a number of succesful example questions. Although I am clearly not one of the most active members.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have nine years experience of the StackExchange system and have been a moderator on other sites for the last six.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would welcome the opportunity to help this site continue to grow to become a legendary source of information in its own right." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28667" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10346" RevisionGUID="3dc57cc3-aebd-4aad-8ffe-10d10e9e96b1" CreationDate="2022-03-09T10:25:08.517" UserId="53" Comment="added 11 characters in body" Text="# Chenmunka&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would like to volunteer my services as part of the moderator team for this site.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have over fifty years experience of studying myths from around the world. This started from growing up in Glastonbury, the Isle of Avalon itself. I now live in Wiltshire, surrounded by many sites of significance in British and Celtic myth. This started my quest to see what other places and other myths were out there, looking for parallels and contrasts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Irrespective of whether you call it religion, mythology, folklore or just a cracked pot-boiler, it fascinates me.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the 1990s I spent some time working in Korea. During which time I was able to look more deeply into far eastern mythology, including visiting the Tripitaka at Haeinsa.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have followed this site from its inception on Area51, having proposed a number of succesful example questions. Although I am clearly not one of the most active members - up to now.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have nine years experience of the StackExchange system and have been a moderator on other sites for the last six.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would welcome the opportunity to help this site continue to grow to become a legendary source of information in its own right." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28676" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="7841" RevisionGUID="505b9f5b-8eb1-4040-b966-2bb65b6bd2f6" CreationDate="2022-03-14T17:51:24.007" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="28677" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10350" RevisionGUID="0dfc538e-3328-4a06-9996-9668128f7746" CreationDate="2022-03-14T20:47:51.067" UserId="398" Text="# cmw&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a current moderator of the Latin site, I am very familiar with the StackExchange system, what's required of mods, and how to handle running a site. I'm also credentialed in the field.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I was [nominated](https://latin.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/519/moderator-candidates-answer-your-questions/527#527) for the Latin role by a mod there, and you can see [my answers to the questions](https://latin.meta.stackexchange.com/a/527/78) for nominees there as well." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28679" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10351" RevisionGUID="e46d82ec-9bea-4640-9cf1-d442942fcb3c" CreationDate="2022-03-14T21:06:59.900" UserId="9086" Text="Hera is the goddess of family. By divorcing Zeus she would be breaking her own family further apart, therefore creating rifts between her children and the other gods and demigods. By refusing to divorce zeus, she is setting an example: she is the queen of the gods, and he the King. He may cheat, but he will be punished for it." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28681" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10352" RevisionGUID="89d1cb60-313e-492c-9c60-ab059a275d91" CreationDate="2022-03-14T21:10:09.447" UserId="3208" Text="This question [has already been addressed in the history stack exchange][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In short, the account of the expulsion of the Hyksos, which is in The Antiquities of the Jews (first mentioned in the 3rd century AD), has many similarities and close parallels to the story of the Exodus which is in the Septuagint written in the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus (285–247 BCE).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The author of the Antiquities explicitly states that the Hyksos were Hebrews. This opinion is repeated in another ancient work, possibly by the same author, *Against Apion*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Considerable credence was lent to the parallel in the 1930s when excavations at Tell el-Dab'a in Egypt provided evidence that this site was very possibly the same as the Avaris mentioned in both sources as being the capital of the Hyksos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Be aware that there are significant differences in the accounts. For example, according to the Septuagint and other traditions, the Hebrews were innocent immigrants to Egypt who grew in number by natural increase over the course of 400 years. According to Antiquities/Apion, the Hyksos were foreign invaders who conquered and ruled Egypt for about 400 years.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/19012/what-is-the-historical-basis-for-the-exodus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28683" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10352" RevisionGUID="af41ba0a-c5dc-4f17-bac6-711f2ca22919" CreationDate="2022-03-14T21:43:02.640" UserId="3208" Comment="added 32 characters in body" Text="This question [has already been addressed in the history stack exchange][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In short, the account of the expulsion of the Hyksos, which is in The Antiquities of the Jews (first mentioned in the 3rd century AD) and in Manetho (3rd century BC), has many similarities and close parallels to the story of the Exodus which is in the Septuagint written in the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus (285–247 BCE).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The author of the Antiquities explicitly states that the Hyksos were Hebrews. This opinion is repeated in another ancient work, possibly by the same author, *Against Apion*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Considerable credence was lent to the parallel in the 1930s when excavations at Tell el-Dab'a in Egypt provided evidence that this site was very possibly the same as the Avaris mentioned in both sources as being the capital of the Hyksos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Be aware that there are significant differences in the accounts. For example, according to the Septuagint and other traditions, the Hebrews were innocent immigrants to Egypt who grew in number by natural increase over the course of 400 years. According to Antiquities/Apion/Manetho, the Hyksos were foreign invaders who conquered and ruled Egypt for about 400 years.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/19012/what-is-the-historical-basis-for-the-exodus" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28703" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10314" RevisionGUID="52fc39fc-2756-40dc-83dd-791f7dcbb90b" CreationDate="2022-03-21T07:20:50.157" UserId="5803" Comment="corrections; improved phrasing; removed second question" Text="I wanted to know if the legends of vampires being vulnerable to a crucifix or a cross exist because of what happened to Jesus. Is this so?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28704" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10314" RevisionGUID="52fc39fc-2756-40dc-83dd-791f7dcbb90b" CreationDate="2022-03-21T07:20:50.157" UserId="5803" Comment="corrections; improved phrasing; removed second question" Text="Are vampires vulnerable to crucifixes because of the crucifixion of Jesus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28705" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="10314" RevisionGUID="52fc39fc-2756-40dc-83dd-791f7dcbb90b" CreationDate="2022-03-21T07:20:50.157" Comment="Proposed by 5803 approved by 53, 108 edit id of 1885" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28708" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10356" RevisionGUID="fc6186bd-0eea-4fd4-8236-143dbfba2a90" CreationDate="2022-03-26T12:12:46.347" UserId="9111" Text="I have a vague recollection of a tale but get no hits from traditional search engines.&#xD;&#xA;In my memory, this is an old and famous tale, that goes as follow:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A young man travels across a foreign land. After some time they reach a river, but the bridge they intended to pass has collapsed. On the bank, a very old boatman offers the traveler to take them across. The traveler accepts, and the old boatman starts to row. As they reach the middle of the river, the old man complains about the effort and asks if the young man would accept to take over the rowing. The traveler accepts, and they reach the other side. The old boatman gets on land, but the young traveler find it impossible to let go of the oars. The old boatman then explains that he was under a curse, that forced him to keep staying in this boat until someone accepts to relay him. Freed from the curse, the old man disappears in the distance while the young man remains cursed on the boat, waiting for a new traveler to come.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am looking for any reference discussing this tale, and more precisely for its official name and author if known." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28710" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10356" RevisionGUID="fc6186bd-0eea-4fd4-8236-143dbfba2a90" CreationDate="2022-03-26T12:12:46.347" UserId="9111" Text="Name of the tale in which a traveler inherits a boatman's curse after accepting to relay him" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28711" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10356" RevisionGUID="fc6186bd-0eea-4fd4-8236-143dbfba2a90" CreationDate="2022-03-26T12:12:46.347" UserId="9111" Text="|myth-identification|reference-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28712" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10357" RevisionGUID="4f31a3dc-af69-46fd-a31a-3f8d7b9a48a4" CreationDate="2022-03-26T20:09:09.253" UserId="398" Text="It's part of the story of &quot;[The Devil with the Three Golden Hairs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Devil_with_the_Three_Golden_Hairs#Synopsis)&quot; found in Grimm's collection of folktales.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can find a translation of it with the parallel German text [here](https://www.grimmstories.com/language.php?grimm=029&amp;l=en&amp;r=de).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The basic synopsis is that the Glückskind (Luck-child) is prophesied to marry the king's daughter, to the latter's chagrin. The tries to get rid of the kid by having him go retrieve three golden hairs from the Devil's head. In doing so, he converses with three individuals who need help, including a ferryman who is forced to row and can never be free. Once he gets to Hell...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...the Devil was not at home, but his grandmother was sitting in a large arm-chair. &quot;What do you want?&quot; said she to him, but she did not look so very wicked. &quot;I should like to have three golden hairs from the devil's head,&quot; answered he, &quot;else I cannot keep my wife.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She decides to help him out. While the Devil was sleeping, she plucked a hair out and told him one of her dreams. (On Wikipedia it says the Devil had the dreams, but the English and German I provided agree it's the grandmother's dreams.) In one of the dreams, she says an ferryman cannot be freed, and the Devil replies:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;What was the dream, then?&quot; asked he [=the devil], and was quite curious. &quot;I dreamt of a ferry-man who complained that he must always ferry from one side to the other, and was never released. What is the cause of it?&quot; - &quot;Ah! the fool,&quot; answered the devil; &quot;when any one comes and wants to go across he must put the oar in his hand, and the other man will have to ferry and he will be free.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story ends with the Glückskind telling this to the ferryman and then tricking the king into taking the oars:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The greedy King set out in all haste, and when he came to the river he beckoned to the ferry-man to put him across. The ferry-man came and bade him get in, and when they got to the other shore he put the oar in his hand and sprang out. But from this time forth the King had to ferry, as a punishment for his sins. Perhaps he is ferrying still? If he is, it is because no one has taken the oar from him." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28714" PostHistoryTypeId="52" PostId="10356" RevisionGUID="59ae6186-634d-471b-8dc1-78162a6c1039" CreationDate="2022-03-26T21:35:55.543" />
  <row Id="28715" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1385" RevisionGUID="55630f2e-7c76-4c5b-b1b5-aeab26f871fd" CreationDate="2022-03-27T00:06:10.593" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="28717" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10358" RevisionGUID="9d9ffb2f-fd8d-4477-9717-371260063225" CreationDate="2022-03-27T20:12:45.353" UserId="6795" Text="Is the Greek mythology about the early-flowering crocus, hyacinths and daffodils unchanged and authentically / natively Indo-European ?&#xD;&#xA;Like all early bloomers, daffodils are a symbol of rebirth, the victory of life over death (represented by winter) and they also had this meaning in pre-Christian Indo-European mythology :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://www.floraqueen.com/blog/daffodils-the-march-birth-flower-that-announces-the-return-of-beautiful-sunny-days&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The mythology known today around these plants no longer contains any aspect of rebirth and is heavily burdened with violence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - Daffodils : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissus_in_culture&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA; - Hyacinth : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyacinth_(mythology) &#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA; - Crocos : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crocus_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Given that early-flowering plants are a very intuitive symbol of rebirth and the victory of life over death, can today's known Greek mythology be considered authentic and unchanged ? &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28719" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10358" RevisionGUID="9d9ffb2f-fd8d-4477-9717-371260063225" CreationDate="2022-03-27T20:12:45.353" UserId="6795" Text="Is the Greek mythology about the early-flowering crocus, hyacinths and daffodils unchanged and authentically / natively Indo-European?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28720" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10358" RevisionGUID="9d9ffb2f-fd8d-4477-9717-371260063225" CreationDate="2022-03-27T20:12:45.353" UserId="6795" Text="|greek|european-folklore|hebrew|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28721" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10359" RevisionGUID="0a98acf4-a149-4b30-8e81-c25a97922f40" CreationDate="2022-03-28T10:35:49.327" UserId="7095" Text="There are a number of pre-Islamic deities mentioned in the Quran. Five particular deities are often grouped together (maybe always, I'm not sure): [Wadd][1], [Suwa'][2], [Yaghuth][3], [Ya'uq][4] and [Nasr][5]. Save for Wadd, who according to Wikipedia was a lunar deity and Nasr who might have been a sun deity, it isn't stated there what these deities were gods of. Is it known what they represented/what their dominion was as deities? Or are there commonly-accepted theories?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wadd&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suwa%27&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yagh%C5%ABth&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ya%27uq&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasr_(deity)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28723" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10359" RevisionGUID="0a98acf4-a149-4b30-8e81-c25a97922f40" CreationDate="2022-03-28T10:35:49.327" UserId="7095" Text="The Quranic Quintet" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28724" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10359" RevisionGUID="0a98acf4-a149-4b30-8e81-c25a97922f40" CreationDate="2022-03-28T10:35:49.327" UserId="7095" Text="|gods|arabic|islam|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28725" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10358" RevisionGUID="9eadd4d1-9954-4200-be1a-478db8e02fba" CreationDate="2022-03-31T07:39:38.010" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags; edited title" Text="Is the Greek myth about the early-flowering crocus, hyacinths and daffodils an authentic version of native Indo-European beliefs?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28726" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="10358" RevisionGUID="9eadd4d1-9954-4200-be1a-478db8e02fba" CreationDate="2022-03-31T07:39:38.010" UserId="108" Comment="edited tags; edited title" Text="|greek|european-folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28727" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10360" RevisionGUID="91b5be13-f5b1-4e53-b5ed-0a079a3e4326" CreationDate="2022-04-02T03:15:53.477" UserId="9124" Text="&#xD;&#xA;Being that hecate's symbol is a lit torch or &quot;light&quot; &#xD;&#xA;You may tie that back to the meaning of the name lucifer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And if you can wrap your head around the idea that before being cast out lucifer being the left hand of yahweh or the maintenance team leader of his creation (like hecate) stole a power from him hiding it (in an apple bearing tree). God since lost his power to communicate with humanity and change things whenever faith (being the source of his power) is waivered hence why he had to send his son to die for humanity instead of just changing his rules and snapping his finger to save caged children, raped babies, whatever displeases humans. (He just simply cant anymore) A theory stating that just like hecate, lucifer has done the same. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Let me know what you think. Possibly do some of your own searching with an open mind that humans have just messed up history." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28729" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10360" RevisionGUID="d70fa9fc-fb4d-4969-ba80-f064a4eb57d7" CreationDate="2022-04-02T07:06:51.937" UserId="53" Comment="Removed irrelevant section" Text="&#xD;&#xA;Being that Hecate's symbol is a lit torch or &quot;light&quot; You may tie that back to the meaning of the name Lucifer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And if you can wrap your head around the idea that before being cast out Lucifer being the left hand of yahweh or the maintenance team leader of his creation (like Hecate) stole a power from him hiding it (in an apple bearing tree). God since lost his power to communicate with humanity and change things whenever faith (being the source of his power) is waivered hence why he had to send his son to die for humanity instead of just changing his rules and snapping his finger to save caged children, raped babies, whatever displeases humans. (He just simply can't anymore) A theory stating that just like hecate, Lucifer has done the same. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do some of your own searching with an open mind that humans have just messed up history." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28730" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10361" RevisionGUID="1b1a1168-b6a9-4c92-84f8-06010a62e428" CreationDate="2022-04-04T13:32:16.567" UserId="5511" Text="&gt; Hecate was associated with crossroads,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That's why her Latin name is Trivia (tri = 3, via = road).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The association with the Christian devil is something that solidified during the re-appreciation of Hellenism and other civilizations in the 19th and 20th century.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The association of the devil with crossroads in itself is a result of Medieval tradition of burying criminals and suicides at the crossroads." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28732" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7631" RevisionGUID="03873414-dfb2-4a0f-bea7-5b6469b9d9a7" CreationDate="2022-04-04T15:48:51.890" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="Yes. A really close fit, fulfilling all of your criteria in one narrative is the origin of a Burmese king called Pyusawhti, who is hatched from a dragon's egg and raised by peasants. Pyusawhti has a sister, hatched from a different egg, but who grows up separately from him. [*For the whole story, see the section* `A Dragon Princess and the Kingdoms of Burma` *below.*]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Numerous other stories bear similar elements, but none correspond quite as closely to your list of requirements.  Another Greek tale parallels Leda's specifically in the versions thereof in which there is no goddess involved and Leda herself is the one said to have laid an egg (or two) after consorting with Zeus. [*See the section* `Molione and Her Twin Sons` *below.*] There is at least one Inca parallel to these Greek myths. [*See* `A Quintuple Deity, &amp; Twin Gods, Among the Inca` *below.*] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Alternatively, in some other South East Asian narratives, there are divinities who lay eggs from which heroes hatch but then these children are raised by their own parents and not by humans. Yet a different motif occurs in an Inca creation myth in which the sun-god sends to his son Vichama three eggs, each made of a different metal, out of which society's different strata are hatched.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Very similarly, in the Nuhiño, &quot;Earth Story,&quot; of the Jivaro of Ecuador and Peru: Chingaso, the wife of the creator-god Kumpara, gives to her son Etsa (the Sun) and to Etsa's wife Nantu (the Moon) an egg from which the first human woman, Mika, hatches. The birds and animals of the forests are later produced from other eggs given to Nantu by Chingaso. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On pp. 36-37 of her *Thematic Guide to World Mythology*, Lorena Stookey says that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;In a tale from the Admiralty Island... people are born from the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eggs laid by the World Turtle, and many similar stories can be found&#xD;&#xA;&gt; throughout Polynesia. In Tibet, where egg myths abound, some of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; myths recount the origins of different orders of people. One myth, for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; instance, tells how the water spirits from four original eggs produce&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the classes of people who make up Tibet's social order. From the water&#xD;&#xA;&gt; spirit of a golden egg came those who are kings, and those who are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; servants came from a turquoise egg. An iron egg produces religious&#xD;&#xA;&gt; leaders or holy men, and social outcasts come from a bronze egg. In&#xD;&#xA;&gt; similar fashion, another myth tells how Tibet's six traditional clans&#xD;&#xA;&gt; originate in six yellow eggs that are carefully cracked open by a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; blacksmith sent by the spirits. According to this tale, two great&#xD;&#xA;&gt; birds lay eighteen primal eggs that are yellow, blue, and white, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; colors of the earth, sea and sky. The clans of people emerge from the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; six earth-colored eggs after a blacksmith from the gods cracks open&#xD;&#xA;&gt; six white eggs and a smith from the water spirits opens six blue&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eggs.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As with Pyusawhti's origin, there are also Central and South American myths in which semidivine heroes (often twins) are born from an egg (or a pair of eggs) which are found by a woman or by a married couple (typically peasants) who then raise the heroes hatched from the eggs. Sometimes the source of the eggs is implied to be divine providence but generally mysterious so that it is unclear if the eggs were ever even laid by anyone or rather perhaps created spontaneously. [*But see also* `The Moon's Sister and Her Descent into the Orinoco` *below.*]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A virtually universal phenomenon is a creation myth in which the first god or the first man (often these categories amount to the same thing) hatches from an egg which then becomes the universe; or that this deity fashions the world into an egg-shaped structure; or a combination of these two events occurs. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sometimes the egg is laid by a gigantic bird, but this creature is also mysterious in the sense that, while it—or rather *she*—might essentially be the mother of a god, she is not necessarily considered to be divine herself, and this is the last occasion in which she features as a character in the mythical chronology.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A notable exception comes from a Greek myth in which Nemesis's mother Nyx—whom the *Funk &amp; Wagnalls Standard Dictionary of Folklore, Mythology and Legend* interprets as the primordial cosmic bird—becomes the first mother after producing a god through an egg which she has laid. [*Further details below under* `Primaeval Night: Grandmother of the Birds`.] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his book *Creation Myths of the World*, David Adams Leeming mentions that the Iban Dayak of Borneo have a story in which two immense birds, named Ara and Irik, &quot;floated on the primordial waters and produced two giant eggs that became the heavens and Earth.&quot; Leeming also refers to these birds as &quot;creator gods&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**On the Greater Sunda Islands**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most variations of the creation myth of the Toba Batak of Sumatra Island start off with the chief deity, called Mulajadi Nabolon, dwelling in the uppermost level of the universe together with a few animals, including some birds. One of these creatures is a blue chicken with an iron beak and shiny, braceleted copper claws, named Manuk-Manuk Hulambujati. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This chicken laid three eggs which it at first complained to Mulajadi Nabolon were too big for it to incubate. After receiving assistance and specific instructions, however, the eggs eventually hatched, producing offspring who were, at the same time, the first men as well as the gods who organised the rest of the universe and who became the ancestors of the human race. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of these divine men, who are also regarded as the sons of Mulajadi Nabolon, is named Batara Guru, who features in a story from the neighbouring island of Java, in which he and his two brothers were produced from a single egg laid by their mother, a goddess called Dewi Rekatawati, or Dewi Rakti, who was married to a god named Sang Hyang Tunggal. The Javanese Batara Guru, also called Sang Hyang Manikmaya, was the lastborn of his brothers, having emerged from the egg's yolk while the elder two came, respectively from the eggshell and the egg-white. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Batara Guru from Sumatra had a daughter named Si Boru Deak Parujar, whose first child, according to Wikipedia, was egg-shaped, &quot;not similar at all to humans&quot;. On the instructions of her grandfather Mulajadi Nabolon, Si Boru Deak Parujar and her husband buried this child and &quot;out of it came plants that spread on the surface of the earth.&quot;    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**A Quintuple Deity, &amp; Twin Gods, Among the Inca**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the Huarochirí Manuscript, a storm-god named Pariacaca existed in the form of five men who were initially falcons which hatched from five different falcon eggs. Bizarrely, they are said, while they were yet still eggs, to have had a son, namely the hero Huatya Curi. The Manuscript also reports the idea that this Pariacaca is the son of the god Cuniraya Viracocha. It is not explained whether Cuniraya Viracocha may have mated with a falcon (or something?) to engender such progeny. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Mt Pariacaca][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Mt Pariacaca, May 2004, by Cordillera Pariacaca&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Handbook of Inca Mythology*, Paul R. Steele &amp; Catherine J. Allen write the following:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;The Augustinians were told that a creator deity named Atajugu&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lived in the sky. He divided himself into three persons with two&#xD;&#xA;&gt; servants. He sent to earth a double, his servant called Guamansuri,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; who disguised his divinity by working in the fields of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Guachemines, the indigenous group in the area. Like the Andean deities&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Viracocha and Cuniraya Viracocha, Guamansuri adopted the disguise of a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; poor man. He then made a Guachemines woman called Cautaguan pregnant,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and was subsequently burned alive for this act. Cautaguan also died&#xD;&#xA;&gt; while giving birth to two eggs. The eggs rested on a dunghill, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eventually two brothers, Catequil and Piguerao, emerged. They revived&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their mother and then began to kill the Guachemines. Those who escaped&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were forced to flee to lower warmer lands toward the coast, and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; depopulated region was filled with a new generation of people. In&#xD;&#xA;&gt; expelling the Guachemines, Piguerao and Catequil used the weapons&#xD;&#xA;&gt; associated with the Andean Lightning deity, who created atmospheric&#xD;&#xA;&gt; effects by firing sling stones.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The account also seems to imply that Cautaguan eventually became a mountain-goddess called Mamacatequil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Unconventional Midwifery in Mongoland**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A sort of reverse version of what you're asking about takes place in a story from the Democratic Republic of Congo. The Mongo hero Bokele was hatched from an egg. In Ntomba, one of the dialects of the Mongo language, according to *African Mythology: A to Z*, a book by Patricia Ann Lynch &amp; Jeremy Roberts, the hero's name is Mokele, whose father, the chief of the Mongo people, was also &quot;the first male human&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In another book, *The Lianja Epic*, by Mubima Maneniang', this early chieftain is called Waku-Waku, while, according to *A Dictionary of African Mythology: The Mythmaker as Storyteller*, by Harold Scheub, his name was Wai, and his many wives all become pregnant at the same time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his book *African Myths of Origin*, Stephen Belcher tells us that Bokele's father went off on a trip, &quot;ordering that all his wives must have children upon his return&quot;. The favourite wife &quot;showed no signs of pregnancy until she was helped by a forest spirit who drew the egg from her and hatched it.&quot; In Lynch &amp; Roberts' account, while his father was out hunting,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mokele was born from an egg that a sympathetic river goddess implanted&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in his mother’s belly. The baby would not grow in the mother’s belly,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; so the river goddess removed it and hatched it herself. The next day,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; she presented the baby boy to the mother but took him home again for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the night. Mokele grew into the size of a four-year-old boy  the next&#xD;&#xA;&gt; day. The river goddess allowed him to go home with his mother but&#xD;&#xA;&gt; warned her to wait a few more days until she showed him to anyone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Within a few days the hero was full grown, had been dramatically introduced to his father, and was off on a mission to buy sunlight from a neighbouring rival community.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Moon's Sister and Her Descent into the Orinoco**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Watunna*, the creation cycle of the So'to of Venezuela, tells us that, in the sky, the creator Wanadi kept a massive stone egg which was full of his unborn people, whom he wished to eventually live on the earth. According to Mineke Schipper, in *Humanity's End as a New Beginning: World Disasters in Myths*, &quot;This egg, called Huehanna, was round like a ball, huge and hollow, its shell thick, hard and heavy&quot; and the egg was abuzz with the laughter, singing and dancing of the people inside it. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nuna, the moon, who was villainous and always hungry, stole Huehanna intending to devour it, but Nuna's young sister Frimene, finding the egg to be beautiful, and with a view to rescuing its contents, hid Huehanna in her vagina, telling herself that she would become the mother of the people within it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A tussle in the night, in which Nuna unsuccessfully tried to pull Huehanna out of his sister, resulted in the first menstrual bleeding. Once Frimene confirmed that it was indeed Nuna who had accosted her under the cover of darkness, she fled from his house and into the jungle, running until she reached the newborn Uriñaku (Orinoco). Plunging herself into the river, she transformed into Huiio, the Great Snake, whereupon she built herself a house at the bottom of the rapids.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Orinoco][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Frimene had been betrothed to Wanadi's brother Müdo, whom Wanadi commissioned to lure the Great Snake out of the water so that he could retrieve his egg from her. Müdo gathered the first-ever hunting party, which pursued Huiio along the river and shot her dead with arrows. Huehanna, which Huiio had released from her grasp as she was dying, burst open against a large rock in the water. The people inside turned into fish eggs, which, upon hatching, produced fish and the other animals which live in rivers and lakes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Two of the fish-eggs remained intact. A jaguar named Manuwa, whose wife was a toad called Kawao, wished to keep these eggs to eat later, and instructed Kawao to take them home, although *she* rather wanted to hatch children to rear from them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The twin brothers Shikiemona and Iureke emerged from the eggs and rapidly grew into unruly, childlike men, who not only raised a terrible ruckus, shouting, screaming and fighting, but also frequently changed themselves into different animals, such as fish, crickets and cockroaches, playing pranks on people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After visiting Huiio's underwater house in the form of fish, Shikiemona and Iureke discovered their true origin when Huiio appeared to them in a dream. They avenged her death by flooding the entire earth. The rainbow, which was formed from Huiio's crown of feathers, remained as a memorial of her, and after the Great Water subsided, Wanadi decided to make other people. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Huiio herself, in actuality, was too powerful to die, and it is merely her body which remained on earth, while she went on to dwell &quot;in the highest Heaven, in Lake Akuena&quot;, whose mistress she became, presiding over eternal life.         &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Mexican Maize Heroes and Founder-Kings**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a Nahua myth in which an old childless couple finds a pair of large chicken eggs and they decide to eat one while giving the other to their hen to hatch. After a few days a boy emerges from the remaining egg, causing the couple to lament that they had probably eaten his sister who would have hatched from the first egg. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As narrated in their book *A Land Without Gods: Process Theory, Maldevelopment and the Mexican Nahuas*, Jacques M. Chevalier &amp; Daniel Buckles conclude the story with: &quot;Moreover, they didn't know who the little boy was.&quot; He was Sintiopiltsin, &quot;the venerable son-god-ear-of-corn&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kondoy, the king who founded the Mixe nation, was also hatched from an egg found by an old peasant couple who had no children. After having their turkey hatch the egg, they raised the boy that emerged therefrom as their own.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his book *Art and Myth of the Ancient Maya*, Oswaldo Chinchilla Mazariegos reports that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The father of Homshuk, the Popoluca maize hero, died in a distant&#xD;&#xA;&gt; place—in war, according to a version from Soteapan, Veracruz—and his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mother ground the baby, tired of his ceaseless crying... Homshuk&#xD;&#xA;&gt; somehow survived, and according to some versions took the shape of an&#xD;&#xA;&gt; egg, which was found by an old cannibal woman. Her husband wanted to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eat the egg, but she decided to raise him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Conflict then arose between Homshuk and his adoptive parents, the man still trying to eat him at first, and eventually the maize hero managed to kill the couple through trickery, continuing his adventures thereafter.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Homshuk][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a Yucatec story, an old witch, desirous of a child, prays to the god Chic Chan, who, according to Emese Fromm's article &quot;The Pyramid of the Magician: Ancient Maya Ruins in Uxmal,&quot; was &quot;one of the four rain serpents, or rain gods&quot; who were representations of the god Chac. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;One night she had a dream where this god told her to look for a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; turtle egg by the nearby cenote, take it home and wait for it to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hatch. In the morning, the old woman did what the god told her and she&#xD;&#xA;&gt; found a large, green turtle egg at the cenote.&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;She took it to her home, wrapped it in cotton and sat it in a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; corner of her hut. She cared for it day after day, keeping it warm,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; talking to it, singing to it. A few months later, the egg cracked and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a tiny baby boy stepped out.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Yucatan Times article &quot;Uxmal Yucatan: The Legend of the Dwarf&quot; says that the witch named the boy Saiyawincoob and that &quot;Time passed but the child remained the same size, the woman noticed that his voice changed and his beard began to grow, so she discovered that he was a dwarf.&quot; In *Xbalanque's Marriage: A Commentary on the Q‘eqchi‘ Myth of Sun and Moon*, Hyacinthus Edwinus Maria Braakhuis says that the dwarf eventually took on the name Ez. He is renowned for having magically built the famous pyramid of Uxmal in one day, thereafter becoming the city's king.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Uxmal Magician's Temple][4]][4]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Pyramid of the Magician, 25 November 2009, by runt35 on Panoramio&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Vietnam's Children of the Dragon and Grandchildren of the Fairy**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lạc Long Quân, the &quot;Dragon Lord of Lạc,&quot; who had emerged from the sea, was the son of a mountain god and, according to Wikipedia, &quot;the dragon goddess that rules the sky and the ocean.&quot; Lạc Long Quân married Âu Cơ, an immortal mountain fairy who often took the form of a bird. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After their union, Âu Cơ gave birth to an egg sac containing a hundred eggs, from which, seven days later, hatched their one hundred sons who went on to become the ancestors of the Vietnamese. Lạc Long Quân is quoted by Wikipedia as saying to his wife, after the hatching:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;I am a descendant of the Dragon, you are [a] descendant of the Fairy,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fire and water cannot live together in harmony.&quot; The two of them then&#xD;&#xA;&gt; divided their children. Fifty sons followed their mother to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mountainous north, the other fifty followed their father to live in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the south; these children are ancestor[s] of Bách Việt. The oldest&#xD;&#xA;&gt; brother followed Âu Cơ to Phong Châu (Phú Thọ), became Quân's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; successor and ruled as Hung King.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Thủ Dầu Một City][5]][5]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;City of Thủ Dầu Một, uploaded to Wikimapia.org by thachhan120282, c. 2011&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Korea's Hero Arisen from a Fallen Goddess**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;King Dongmyeong, who founded Goguryeo, the northernmost of the Three Kingdoms of Korea, was originally called Jumong. In one version of her adventures, his mother, the goddess Yuhwa, is disowned by her father and exiled into a mortal existence. Once she loses her divinity, upon being exposed to sunlight, she lays an egg, from which Jumong hatches. In his book *Asian Mythologies*, Yves Bonnefoy spells the hero's names as *Tongmyǒng* and *Čumong*, and his mother's name as *Ryuhwa*, narrating their story as follows on pp. 296-297. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;The *Wei chou* (chap. C) relates that the eldest daughter of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; deity of the waters was bathing in a spot called The Heart of the Bear&#xD;&#xA;&gt; when she was surprised by Hämosu, her future husband. The birth of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Čumong resulted from this encounter.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;&quot;In the capital of Eastern Fouyou, a man appeared, it is not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; known from where, who said his name was Hämosu, and who claimed to be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the son of the Heavenly Emperor who had come to found a state.&quot; The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; daughter of the deity of the waters explained how she came to know the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; son of the god of the sky: &quot;I saw the man. After he had lured me into&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a house located at the spot called the Heart of the Bear ... he made&#xD;&#xA;&gt; me commit adultery with him. After that, he left and never&#xD;&#xA;&gt; returned.&quot;&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;In this way the girl conceived an egg from which Čumong emerged.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The same text says:&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; &lt;sup&gt;Ryuhwa... was shut up in a room. The light of the sun fell on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; her. Shielding her body, she avoided it, but the light of the sun&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; pursued her. After that, she conceived and gave birth to an egg. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; king (of Fouyu) ... had the egg thrown to a dog, and then to a pig,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; but neither the dog nor the pig ate it. It was abandoned on the road;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; cattle and horses avoided it. Later, it was left in a field; the birds&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; covered it with their wings. The king ... tried to break it, but&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; without success. He gave it back to the woman (who &quot;gave birth&quot;). She&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; wrapped up the egg and put it in a warm place. A boy broke its shell&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; and emerged from it.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Tomb of King Tongmyong][6]][6]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Tomb of King Tongmyong, from Persephone's Blog, on PersephoneTravels.com&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**A Dragon Princess and the Kingdoms of Burma**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pyusawhti (or Pyuminhti) was an early ruler of Pagan (now called Bagan), the Wikipedia article on him saying:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;The pre-*Hmannan* Burmese chronicles claim that Pyusawhti, a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; descendant of a solar spirit (နေမင်းသား) and a dragon princess&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (နဂါးမင်းသမီး ဇံသီး), founded Pagan in 167/168 CE, and hence the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Burmese monarchy. The dragon princess, granddaughter of the Dragon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Emperor Kala Naga, was impregnated by the solar spirit who was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; visiting the earth. Out of this union, the dragon princess laid three&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eggs, all of which a hunter took away. The hunter accidentally broke&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the gold-colored egg of the three at Mogok, and the broken golden egg&#xD;&#xA;&gt; turned into numerous rubies and gems (for which the Mogok region is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; known to the present-day). The hunter then lost the remaining two eggs&#xD;&#xA;&gt; during one heavy storm. One egg, in brown color, ended up in a small&#xD;&#xA;&gt; kingdom in either northern Burma (Thindwe or Tagaung) or Yunnan, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; out came a female human princess, who later became queen of that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; kingdom. The remaining egg, in white color, drifted down the Irrawaddy&#xD;&#xA;&gt; all the way to Nyaung-U, where it was picked up by an elderly&#xD;&#xA;&gt; childless Pyu peasant couple. When the egg hatched, Pyusawhti was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; born. The Pyu couple raised him like their own son. He was then&#xD;&#xA;&gt; educated by a local monk named Yathekyaung.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Pyusawhti][7]][7]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;King Pyusawhti, 26 October 2015, by Phyo WP&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Heroes of the Ovambo**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Ovambo of Angola and Namibia tell of &quot;a good girl who married in a faraway country&quot; in what Harold Scheub seems to interpret as the beginning of time. She laid an egg several times but before long each one broke, until her mother advised her to place the next egg that she laid on top of the granary, which the girl did. When the egg hatched, a child emerged from it who named himself Nambaisita, the &quot;Self-Created&quot; One, boasting that he had made himself and that he therefore did not fall under the jurisdiction of the ruler of the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kalunga (God), who lived in an enclosure in a different neighbourhood, was annoyed by this threat to his authority, and summoned the boy to his home, where the two contended with each other in a series of challenges set by Kalunga, all of which Nambaisita overcame. According to Edwin Meyer Loeb's *Kuanyama Ambo Folklore*, Nambaisita even went so far as to overthrow Kalunga and become God. Scheub spells the hero's name as Nambalisita, regarding whom Christian Rodrigues Fischgold mentions, despite his boasts of self-creation, that there is at least one version of the story in which Kalunga is actually the boy's father, which relationship might be at the root of their rivalry.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In another story, a girl called Nehova, &quot;who belonged to a tribe of people whose women laid eggs&quot;, was abducted by a king who killed her brother and married her. When she laid eggs, the king broke them, thinking they were being laid in her hut by a hen. Nehova then concealed the next egg she laid on top of her corn granary. Many days later, when the king left with his household and all his wives for a feast in a different homestead, she stayed behind, knowing that the hatching time was at hand. The boy who hatched from the egg immediately went on to resurrect his uncle. When the king returned home, his own newborn (or rather newly-hatched) son killed him, and the deceased ruler became an evil spirit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Tibetan Heroes, Demons &amp; Deities**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Epic of Gesar Khan is of great importance in Tibet but also exists in Mongolian, Buryat, Balti and Ladakhi versions. In one of the numerous variants of the story, Gesar is the son of a divinity named As Kenzo, sired upon a Nāga princess called Dzeden. The Nāgas are a race of subterranean underwater snake-people, making Dzeden something like a serpentine mermaid. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Her son Gesar is also the incarnation of a bodhisattva named Thubpa Gawa. She becomes pregnant with him when As Kenzo one day appears to her and gives her a drink of holy water impressed with the reflection of Thubpa Gawa's face. A short while thereafter, as narrated in *The Superhuman Life of Gesar of Ling*, by Alexandra David-Néel &amp; Lama Yongden:  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [O]ut of a white vein, which opened on the top of her head, came a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; white egg marked with three spots that resembled three eyes...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; A little while later it broke of itself, and from it emerged a male&#xD;&#xA;&gt; child with dark skin, the colour of beer. He had three eyes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dzeden is too tripped out by the strangeness of how the child and its egg had come about, and she uses her thumb to put one of the baby's eyes out. This child, who was already talking before his egg came out of his mother's head, then goes on to have adventures shortly thereafter, eventually becoming a great conqueror of the surrounding regions. Like the Korean Yuhwa, Dzeden also lives a human life. Her people the Nāgas are also shape-shifters, and thus she dwells in disguise as a peasant girl named Gongmo, in which form she raises her son.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Naga Kanya][8]][8]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Mandalas.Life *Tibetan Statue of Naga Kanya*&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In another story, the violence demon Tsi Mar, or Tsiu Marpo, hatches from a red egg of blood, laid  by a flesh-eating demoness called Dongmarma, the consort of the savage demon lord Lekpa.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also a Buddhist story about a pair of deities, brother and sister, whose parents, a man named Nujin Zangki Ralpachen and his wife Sinmo Dragi Ralpachen, had produced them from a pair of eggs. For the whole story, see the Himalayan Art Resources article &quot;[Begtse Chen (Buddhist Protector)](https://www.himalayanart.org/items/484),&quot; particularly the section `The History of the Protector Deity Begtse`.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And Back Around to Ancient Greece&#xD;&#xA;------------------  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Molione and Her Twin Sons**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As aforementioned, there is a very close Greek parallel to the story of the union of Leda and Zeus. Leda's cousin Molus had a daughter named Molione, who in turn had twin sons, Eurytus and Cteatus, who, from their mother, are known as the Molionids. From  Molione's husband Actor, these brothers were also called Actorides although it was claimed that their real father was the sea-god Poseidon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Athenaeus' *Deipnosophistae*, the Molionids were hatched from a silver egg. According to Theoi.com, their mother &quot;was seduced by the god Poseidon in the guise of a bird.&quot; I have not found any ancient source which explicitly says that, so perhaps it is merely that website's interpretation, albeit not an unreasonable one. Poseidon does undoubtedly mate with Medusa in the form of a bird in Ovid's *Metamorphoses*, which is supposed to explain how their son, the winged horse Pegasus, comes to have the form that he does. Pegasus's birth itself *is* fairly unconventional, but no mention of an egg appears in accounts thereof. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Presumably Molione is the one who laid this silver egg, and Poseidon becoming a bird is supposed to explain how an apparently regular, garden-variety mortal like her ends up laying an egg instead of giving birth. The closest that Molione seems to have been in terms of possessing biological divinity is that her father Molus was a son of the war-god Ares. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Thyestes' Sister**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Among Helen's in-laws, her husband Menelaus had an uncle named Thyestes. The Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology cites the *Lexicon* of Hesychius of Alexandria, and Tzetzes' commentary on Lycophron's *Alexandra*, as the sources for an obscure story in which Thyestes has a sister named Daeta (or Daeto) by whom he becomes the father of a certain Enorches. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For some unexplained reason, Enorches was hatched from an egg. As with Molione, there does not seem to be anything special about Daeta that would cause her to give rise to offspring by egg-laying. Assuming both of her parents were the same as those of Thyestes, then her closest connection to the gods would be her great-grandfathers Zeus, Ares and Atlas, a pedigree she would share with numerous other ordinary mortals.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Primaeval Night: Grandmother of the Birds**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Aristophanes' play the *Ornithes* (&quot;Birds&quot;), the flying creatures therein, being the title characters of this production, boast of how much more ancient they are even than the Olympian deities. A Chorus of them narrates their origin, telling us that &quot;At the beginning,&quot; before the Earth, the Air and the Sky existed, &quot;there was only Chaos [the Void], Nyx [Night], dark Erebus [Mists of Darkness], and spacious Tartarus [the Abyss].&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Firstly, black-winged Nyx laid a wind-egg in the bosom of the unending&#xD;&#xA;&gt; depths of Erebus, and from this, after Seasons rolled around,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sprang the graceful Eros, on his back the glitter of his golden wings, swirling like&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the whirlwinds of the tempest. In broad Tartarus, he mated with dark&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Chaos, winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race, which was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the first to glimpse the light.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A striking parallel to this occurs in Hawaiian mythology. In the poetic chant called the *Kumulipo*, one of several couples born of the primordial darkness are named Po’el’ele, the personification of the darkness of night, and Pohaha, the personification of the darkness just before dawn. These become the parents of a few different kinds of insects and they also produce an egg from which the first birds hatch.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In an Egyptian creation myth, the sun-god Re first appears as &quot;the bird of light,&quot; dispelling the primaeval darkness in the form of the first sunrise after hatching from an egg laid by a celestial goose, or otherwise by an ibis. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Ancient Egyptian Goose][9]][9]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Ptolemaic Egyptian Goose, Walters Art Museum&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/NmTYA.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/pvVLP.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Sf4m9.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/KmB9q.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/wCagd.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/toJGL.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/1A3Wq.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ZXqWc.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Gb6s0.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28733" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10362" RevisionGUID="15a375f4-5137-48f2-8b3e-404d188f88af" CreationDate="2022-04-05T01:54:07.497" UserId="9129" Text="I believe that it was to show how like Cronus, Perseus, was killing a monster for power. In Cronus's case he became king of the Titans and in Perseus's case he eventually became king of his true homeland. Also the sickle was a buried gift of the gods which was prophesied that would be used to kill Medusa. This is just my opinion please share yours" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28735" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10362" RevisionGUID="a14ed119-9d31-4466-a8c0-8738912d9071" CreationDate="2022-04-05T07:34:26.133" UserId="53" Comment="Removed irrelevant section" Text="I believe that it was to show how like Cronus, Perseus, was killing a monster for power. In Cronus's case he became king of the Titans and in Perseus's case he eventually became king of his true homeland. Also the sickle was a buried gift of the gods which was prophesied that would be used to kill Medusa.  &#xD;&#xA;This is just my opinion." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28736" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10363" RevisionGUID="1c99bb83-5d59-41ed-bc85-43e93311d445" CreationDate="2022-04-05T11:07:07.617" UserId="9130" Text="Tyr, the Norse god, had his hand bitten off by Fenrir- the giant wolf." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28738" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="10342" RevisionGUID="423f9d25-956d-4992-bb51-eea156c7de5e" CreationDate="2022-04-05T23:05:35.467" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="28739" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10364" RevisionGUID="39c3dc57-5688-4f02-abdf-3f583950cad8" CreationDate="2022-04-06T17:24:52.593" UserId="5771" Text="According to Zielinski's Law the ancient poets told simultaneous events chronologically without moving back and forth in time. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did Homer and Hesiod not have a way to say 'meanwhile'?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28741" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10364" RevisionGUID="39c3dc57-5688-4f02-abdf-3f583950cad8" CreationDate="2022-04-06T17:24:52.593" UserId="5771" Text="Re: Zielinski's Law" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28742" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10364" RevisionGUID="39c3dc57-5688-4f02-abdf-3f583950cad8" CreationDate="2022-04-06T17:24:52.593" UserId="5771" Text="|homer|hesiod|chronology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28743" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10365" RevisionGUID="933aed5d-36f0-4561-a814-33e7b6f27f46" CreationDate="2022-04-07T03:52:29.880" UserId="398" Text="You absolutely could say &quot;meanwhile&quot; in ancient Greek. It's not a matter of what words to use, but of the narrative practice of oral poetry. The problem is that Zielinski and some immediately after him preceded the major discoveries of the orality of Homeric poetry. Zielinski was writing at the turn of the century, and still considered the Homeric poems primarily written. Meanwhile, Milman Parry wasn't even born until a couple years after Zielinski formulated his law.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What's actually going on is summarized by R. M. Frazer:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zielinski explained his law as due to the poet's habit of describing events as an observer; observation always proceeds forward in time and it is only by means of analysis that we are able to synchronize events. Frankel gave another explanation: the poet lacked the abstract idea of time into which different actions might be integrated.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; It seems likely, however, that Zielinski's law is best explained as a law of oral poetry, the study of which came into prominence after Zielinski and Frankel wrote. Simultaneous events are told consecutively, or paratactically, and the paratactic method of composition is one of the most important techniques of oral poetry. This method has been well described by Notopoulos,&#xD;&#xA;though without any reference to Zielinski's law: the oral poet strings events together, one after the other, connecting them by means of foreshadowing, retrospection, and ring-composition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Hesiod’s Titanomachy as an Illustration of Zielinski’s Law, R. M. Frazer&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It should be noted that not everyone agrees with Zielinski's law. A good rundown of the problems in interpretation can be found in Ruth Scodel's 2008 article, &quot;Zielinski's Law Reconsidered,&quot; published in *TAPA* 138: 107–125." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28745" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10365" RevisionGUID="96ff2644-07d9-444d-8b3b-09503b6b053b" CreationDate="2022-04-07T04:05:30.217" UserId="4152" Comment="Added link." Text="You absolutely could say &quot;meanwhile&quot; in ancient Greek. It's not a matter of what words to use, but of the narrative practice of oral poetry. The problem is that Zielinski and some immediately after him preceded the major discoveries of the orality of Homeric poetry. Zielinski was writing at the turn of the century, and still considered the Homeric poems primarily written. Meanwhile, Milman Parry wasn't even born until a couple years after Zielinski formulated his law.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What's actually going on is summarized by R. M. Frazer:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zielinski explained his law as due to the poet's habit of describing events as an observer; observation always proceeds forward in time and it is only by means of analysis that we are able to synchronize events. Frankel gave another explanation: the poet lacked the abstract idea of time into which different actions might be integrated.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; It seems likely, however, that Zielinski's law is best explained as a law of oral poetry, the study of which came into prominence after Zielinski and Frankel wrote. Simultaneous events are told consecutively, or paratactically, and the paratactic method of composition is one of the most important techniques of oral poetry. This method has been well described by Notopoulos,&#xD;&#xA;though without any reference to Zielinski's law: the oral poet strings events together, one after the other, connecting them by means of foreshadowing, retrospection, and ring-composition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Hesiod’s Titanomachy as an Illustration of Zielinski’s Law, R. M. Frazer&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It should be noted that not everyone agrees with Zielinski's law. A good rundown of the problems in interpretation can be found in Ruth Scodel's 2008 article, &quot;[Zielinski's Law Reconsidered][1],&quot; published in *TAPA* 138: 107–125.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.jstor.org/stable/40212076" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28746" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="10365" RevisionGUID="96ff2644-07d9-444d-8b3b-09503b6b053b" CreationDate="2022-04-07T04:05:30.217" Comment="Proposed by 4152 approved by 398 edit id of 1886" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28747" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10365" RevisionGUID="37d7803a-0e50-4530-ad54-e7746bf6cd0e" CreationDate="2022-04-07T05:02:38.443" UserId="398" Comment="added 54 characters in body" Text="You absolutely could say &quot;meanwhile&quot; in ancient Greek. It's not a matter of what words to use, but of the narrative practice of oral poetry. The problem is that Zielinski and some immediately after him preceded the major discoveries of the orality of Homeric poetry. Zielinski was writing at the turn of the century, and still considered the Homeric poems primarily written. Meanwhile, Milman Parry wasn't even born until a couple years after Zielinski formulated his law.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What's actually going on is summarized by [R. M. Frazer](https://grbs.library.duke.edu/article/view/6661/5061):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zielinski explained his law as due to the poet's habit of describing events as an observer; observation always proceeds forward in time and it is only by means of analysis that we are able to synchronize events. Frankel gave another explanation: the poet lacked the abstract idea of time into which different actions might be integrated.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; It seems likely, however, that Zielinski's law is best explained as a law of oral poetry, the study of which came into prominence after Zielinski and Frankel wrote. Simultaneous events are told consecutively, or paratactically, and the paratactic method of composition is one of the most important techniques of oral poetry. This method has been well described by Notopoulos,&#xD;&#xA;though without any reference to Zielinski's law: the oral poet strings events together, one after the other, connecting them by means of foreshadowing, retrospection, and ring-composition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Hesiod’s Titanomachy as an Illustration of Zielinski’s Law, R. M. Frazer&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It should be noted that not everyone agrees with Zielinski's law. A good rundown of the problems in interpretation can be found in Ruth Scodel's 2008 article, &quot;[Zielinski's Law Reconsidered][1],&quot; published in *TAPA* 138: 107–125.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.jstor.org/stable/40212076" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28749" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10364" RevisionGUID="b34ab01b-a977-4ed2-8122-bca78b415e3a" CreationDate="2022-04-08T10:51:20.510" UserId="108" Comment="edited title" Text="Why does Zielinski's Law exist? Were the poets unable to say &quot;meanwhile&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28750" PostHistoryTypeId="36" PostId="10366" RevisionGUID="b07fa0f8-ab14-4994-b0a4-37c2c5651aa9" CreationDate="2022-04-08T11:14:45.653" UserId="-1" Comment="from https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/68750/is-there-a-myth-about-the-world-egg-in-talmud" />
  <row Id="28751" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10366" RevisionGUID="171e6adb-5721-4e7a-bc76-81237ad8e5d6" CreationDate="2022-04-08T10:15:41.703" UserId="9138" Text="As we know, Genesis 1-2 is a remarkable and probably best known creation story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Decades ago, the Finnish mythologist Martti Haavio referred in his book 'Väinämöinen' (1949, FINNISH) that there would have been a myth in the Jewish Talmud about the world egg, from which the heaven and earth were created. For reference, he used Robert Eisler's book &quot;Weltenmantel und himmelszelt; religionsgeschichtliche untersuchungen zur urgeschichte des antiken weltbildes I-II&quot;, p. 410 (from 1910).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have tried to find a connection to this from Talmud and failed. Also, I don’t speak German so I can’t read the original book (although it’s more likely to be found on the internet, though not necessarily in two different books as the name of the book I give suggests).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does anyone know if such a myth can be found in the Talmud and if so where and which work would be appropriate to look at it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28753" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10366" RevisionGUID="171e6adb-5721-4e7a-bc76-81237ad8e5d6" CreationDate="2022-04-08T10:15:41.703" UserId="9138" Text="Is there a myth about the World Egg in Talmud?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28754" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10366" RevisionGUID="171e6adb-5721-4e7a-bc76-81237ad8e5d6" CreationDate="2022-04-08T10:15:41.703" UserId="9138" Text="|judaism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28755" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10367" RevisionGUID="1aa5938d-bcc3-4dea-9d75-af13c2fb0722" CreationDate="2022-04-08T15:37:36.237" UserId="7095" Text="Going by the note @tohuwawohu found in Eisler's book, there isn't anything remotely as explicit as Eisler said not in Tractate Chagigah 12 nor in Midrash Beresheet Rabbah 10.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eisler said, according to Google Translate: &quot;How did God create the world? He took two halves of an egg and fertilized one through the other.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The closest I found is [this][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;מַאי ״שָׁמַיִם״? אָמַר רַבִּי יוֹסֵי בַּר חֲנִינָא: שֶׁשָּׁם מַיִם. בְּמַתְנִיתָא תָּנָא: אֵשׁ וּמַיִם, מְלַמֵּד שֶׁהֱבִיאָן הַקָּדוֹשׁ בָּרוּךְ הוּא וּטְרָפָן זֶה בָּזֶה, וְעָשָׂה מֵהֶן רָקִיעַ.    &#xD;&#xA;Incidental to the above, the Gemara asks: What is the meaning and source of the word “heaven” [shamayim]? Rabbi Yosei bar Ḥanina said: It is an acronym, shesham mayim, meaning: That water is there. It was taught in a baraita: Shamayim means esh umayim, fire and water, which teaches that the Holy One, Blessed be He, brought them both and combined [/mixed] them together, and made the firmament from them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The root טר&quot;פ used here is often used with regards to eggs, typically meaning beaten eggs. But eggs aren't actually mentioned here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I tried looking around a bit on the internet but haven't turned up anything yet. I'll update if I find anything, though I'm somewhat doubtful. See [here][2] and [here][3] for two cases of stories quoted in the name of ancient Jewish sources but don't seem to actually be there. I can attest that I spent quite a bit of time hunting down these stories through dozens of Jewish sources, but to no avail. Of course, it's possible that Eisler had a different understanding of the Talmud.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Chagigah.12a.19?ven=William_Davidson_Edition_-_English&amp;vhe=William_Davidson_Edition_-_Vocalized_Aramaic&amp;lang=bi&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/53512/source-for-a-talmudic-story-of-three-caskets&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/53461/source-for-an-aggadah-about-moshe-feeding-a-bird" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28757" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10368" RevisionGUID="a959f0c2-1fb4-4cc7-9db0-2a2942daac1b" CreationDate="2022-04-09T14:06:15.410" UserId="9140" Text="Great sage of the Lin family states that the term great sage refers to a sage that has transcended normal sage stature and ontol the realm of godliness. This transition is natural given the premise sage into great sage; or; sage &lt; great sage. However that is not to disrespect the sage. For little sage &gt; great sage in some respects. Rather, the differences must be appreciated. Suppose the great sage is at the vanguard of humanity and whimming away as it pleases him. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28759" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10367" RevisionGUID="a471bbe0-8668-406c-91ea-9e78fb3d0b73" CreationDate="2022-04-09T20:00:11.520" UserId="7095" Comment="Small clarification of the wording of the translation" Text="Going by the note @tohuwawohu found in Eisler's book, there isn't anything remotely as explicit as Eisler said not in Tractate Chagigah 12 nor in Midrash Beresheet Rabbah 10.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eisler said, according to Google Translate: &quot;How did God create the world? He took two halves of an egg and fertilized one through the other.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The closest I found is [this][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;מַאי ״שָׁמַיִם״? אָמַר רַבִּי יוֹסֵי בַּר חֲנִינָא: שֶׁשָּׁם מַיִם. בְּמַתְנִיתָא תָּנָא: אֵשׁ וּמַיִם, מְלַמֵּד שֶׁהֱבִיאָן הַקָּדוֹשׁ בָּרוּךְ הוּא וּטְרָפָן זֶה בָּזֶה, וְעָשָׂה מֵהֶן רָקִיעַ.&quot;    &#xD;&#xA;&quot;The Talmud asks: What is the meaning and source of the word “heaven” [shamayim]? Rabbi Yosei bar Ḥanina said: It is an acronym, shesham mayim, meaning: That water is there. It was taught in a baraita: Shamayim means esh umayim, fire and water, which teaches that the Holy One, Blessed be He, brought them both and combined [/mixed] them together, and made the firmament from them.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The root טר&quot;פ used here is often used with regards to eggs, typically meaning beaten eggs. But eggs aren't actually mentioned here.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I tried looking around a bit on the internet but haven't turned up anything yet. I'll update if I find anything, though I'm somewhat doubtful. See [here][2] and [here][3] for two cases of stories quoted in the name of ancient Jewish sources but don't seem to actually be there. I can attest that I spent quite a bit of time hunting down these stories through dozens of Jewish sources, but to no avail. Of course, it's possible that Eisler had a different understanding of the Talmud.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Chagigah.12a.19?ven=William_Davidson_Edition_-_English&amp;vhe=William_Davidson_Edition_-_Vocalized_Aramaic&amp;lang=bi&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/53512/source-for-a-talmudic-story-of-three-caskets&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/53461/source-for-an-aggadah-about-moshe-feeding-a-bird" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28762" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10370" RevisionGUID="ee7a0a13-6a6b-4c9d-a96f-7fefe8edd586" CreationDate="2022-04-10T13:52:00.453" UserId="9143" Text="Achilles being in his early 20s makes sense, he's around 10 when Helen is brought to Troy and he goes into hiding, and is there at least until his early teens since he fathers Neoptolemus there. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Given that Paris is already married to Oenone at the time of the Judgement he's likely at least in his late teens when Peleus and Thetis marry. Even if Achilles is born within a year of the wedding (unlikely), Paris is still at least 15 years older than Achilles, probably closer to 20. That puts Paris in his late 30s when the Greeks arrive, and late 40s at his death. He is most definitely older than Achilles." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28770" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10372" RevisionGUID="916eb1e2-7c42-4301-8489-e6b89bd17fed" CreationDate="2022-04-14T10:11:01.787" UserId="7095" Text="In the middle of a discussion on different pagan Roman festivals, the Talmud in [Tractate Avodah Zara 11b][1] describes a certain Roman festival:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&quot;Rav Yehuda says that Shmuel says: They have another festival in Rome: Once every seventy years they bring a man who is whole and free from any defect and have him ride on a lame man. And they dress him in the garments of Adam the first man and place on his head the scalp [karkifelo] of Rabbi Yishmael [which the Romans flayed when they executed him].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The clothes of Adam were garments of skins (typically thought to be animal skins) according to Jewish tradition (see [Genesis 3:21][2] and [Genesis Rabbah 20:12][3]). Was there any Roman festival that featured something comparable to the description in the Talmud?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Avodah_Zarah.11b.3?ven=William_Davidson_Edition_-_English&amp;vhe=Wikisource_Talmud_Bavli&amp;lang=bi&amp;with=all&amp;lang2=en&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Genesis.3.21?vhe=Tanach_with_Ta%27amei_Hamikra&amp;qh=%D7%9B%D7%AA%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%AA%20%D7%A2%D7%95%D7%A8&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.sefaria.org.il/Bereishit_Rabbah.20.12?vhe=Midrash_Rabbah_--_TE&amp;lang=bi" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28772" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10372" RevisionGUID="916eb1e2-7c42-4301-8489-e6b89bd17fed" CreationDate="2022-04-14T10:11:01.787" UserId="7095" Text="Was there a Roman festival where people dressed in skins?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28773" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10372" RevisionGUID="916eb1e2-7c42-4301-8489-e6b89bd17fed" CreationDate="2022-04-14T10:11:01.787" UserId="7095" Text="|roman|jewish|pagan|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28776" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="5080" RevisionGUID="6e84d0a9-9d38-4734-9200-5325648db0a7" CreationDate="2022-04-14T17:26:44.160" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="28780" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10139" RevisionGUID="3b02b1ef-d26a-4656-9932-290b54f9a8ec" CreationDate="2022-04-14T21:33:37.997" UserId="409" Comment="added 42 characters in body" Text="The wikipedia page on [Birds in Norse Mythology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Birds_in_Norse_mythology) does not mention&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other [websites](https://talesfromthefairies.wordpress.com/tag/animals-in-norse-mythology) mention owls:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The owl is associated with Hawthorn and the mystique rune is Huathe. The owl is the guide to the underworld, it helps us to see in the spiritual and actual dark, and it shows us how to look inside the darkness in ourselves and find a way out of it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But are unsourced (and almost comically made up).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is anything mentioned in Norse mythology about owls?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28781" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10374" RevisionGUID="fdcc3c6c-d310-4df2-b416-9da6b9c0d0cc" CreationDate="2022-04-15T05:54:33.377" UserId="9157" Text="A frequent talking point about Irish mythology that I see peddled in many neo-pagan and academic circles was the deity Lúgh Lámhfhada is a no longer deemed sun-god, but rather a light-god or storm-god. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I find this very strange as many of the texts from Irish sagas staring Lúgh often described with solar and Julius Caesar once compared Lúgh‘s Gaulish counterpart Lúgús to the Greco-Roman sun-god Apollo.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can someone explain to me why this is the case?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28783" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10374" RevisionGUID="fdcc3c6c-d310-4df2-b416-9da6b9c0d0cc" CreationDate="2022-04-15T05:54:33.377" UserId="9157" Text="Why isn’t Lúgh Lámhfhada considered a sun-god?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28784" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10374" RevisionGUID="fdcc3c6c-d310-4df2-b416-9da6b9c0d0cc" CreationDate="2022-04-15T05:54:33.377" UserId="9157" Text="|comparative|celtic|irish|gods|sun|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28785" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10374" RevisionGUID="427625db-fe13-4700-af5c-8697537c31f7" CreationDate="2022-04-15T07:30:57.200" UserId="9157" Comment="added 28 characters in body" Text="A frequent talking point about Irish mythology that I see peddled in many neo-pagan and academic circles is the deity Lúgh Lámhfhada is a no longer deemed sun-god, but rather a light-god or storm-god. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I find this very strange as many of the texts from Irish sagas staring Lúgh often desccribe him with solar imagery and Julius Caesar once compared Lúgh‘s Gaulish counterpart Lúgús to the Greco-Roman sun-god Apollo in his writings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can someone explain to me why this is the case?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28786" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10374" RevisionGUID="4933839f-b4b1-411a-82ae-79633b16072f" CreationDate="2022-04-15T11:05:49.963" UserId="9157" Comment="added 599 characters in body" Text="A frequent talking point about Irish mythology that I see peddled in many neo-pagan and academic circles is the deity Lúgh Lámhfhada is no longer deemed a sun god but rather a light god or storm-god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I find this very strange as many of the texts from Irish sagas staring Lúgh often describe him with solar imagery, and Julius Caesar once compared Lúgh‘s Gaulish counterpart Lúgús to the Greco-Roman sun-god Apollo in his writings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *&quot;Among the gods, they most worship Mercury. There are numerous images of him; they declare him the inventor of all arts, the guide for every&#xD;&#xA;&gt; road and journey, and they deem him to have the greatest influence for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; all money-making and traffic. After him they set **Apollo**, Mars,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jupiter, and Minerva. Of these deities they have almost the same idea&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as all other nations: Apollo drives away diseases, Minerva supplies&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the first principles of arts and crafts, Jupiter holds the empire of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; heaven, Mars controls wars. &quot;*&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**— Julius Caesar, *Commentarii de Bello Gallico, 6:17***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can someone explain to me why this is the case?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28787" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10374" RevisionGUID="a5e76c19-74fb-4d8c-a9c3-06ccc49fe1d4" CreationDate="2022-04-15T11:34:43.693" UserId="9157" Comment="added 599 characters in body" Text="A frequent talking point about Irish mythology that I see peddled in many neo-pagan and academic circles is the deity Lúgh Lámhfhada is no longer deemed a sun god but rather a light god or storm-god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I find this very strange as many of the texts from Irish sagas staring Lúgh often describe him with solar imagery, and Julius Caesar once compared Lúgh‘s Gaulish counterpart Lúgús to the Greco-Roman sun-god Apollo in his writings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *&quot;Among the gods, they most worship Mercury. There are numerous images of him; they declare him the inventor of all arts, the guide for every&#xD;&#xA;&gt; road and journey, and they deem him to have the greatest influence for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; all money-making and traffic. After him they set **Apollo**, Mars,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jupiter, and Minerva. Of these deities they have almost the same idea&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as all other nations: Apollo drives away diseases, Minerva supplies&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the first principles of arts and crafts, Jupiter holds the empire of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; heaven, Mars controls wars. &quot;*&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**— Julius Caesar, *Commentarii de Bello Gallico, 6:17***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*&quot;&#xD;&#xA;...they were not long there when they saw an army and a goodly host coming towards them from the East, and in the vanguard, there was one young man high in authority overall; and **like to the setting sun was the radiance of his face and forehead, and they were unable to gaze upon his countenance on account of its splendour**. And this is who it was - Lugh Lamhfhada Loinnbheimionach...from the Land of Promise...and when the Cathbarr (Manannan’s helmet) was let off of him the appearance of his face and forehead was as **brilliant as the sun on a dry summer’s day.**&quot;*&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; — **Richard J O'Duffy, *The Quest of the Sons of Turenn, p 67***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*&quot;Then arose Breas, the son of Balar, and he said: &quot;It is a wonder to me&quot;, said he, &quot;that the sun to rise in the west today, and in the east every other day&quot;. &quot;It would be better that it wer so&quot;, said the Druids. &quot;What else is it?&quot; said he. &quot;The **radiance of the face of Lugh of the Long Arms**&quot;, said they.&quot;*&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**— Eugene O'Curry,** ***The Fate of the Children of Tuireann, pp. 176–177***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Can someone explain to me why this is the case?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28788" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10375" RevisionGUID="63cce5f3-c42e-43d2-be4c-973b71feeef4" CreationDate="2022-04-16T07:00:08.027" UserId="2682" Text="More Cohesion Than Consensus&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is not a consensus, since there are so many variant traditions of these old myths, but a tendency toward a certain &quot;main stream&quot; of narrative and chronology is identifiable, much of it relying on Hesiod's texts—the *Theogony* and *Works and Days*—as a base, since he is considered, since ancient times, to be one of the earliest of all the mythographers. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The degree to which a myth might be described as &quot;mainstream&quot; or rather more obscure is the degree to which it adheres to or deviates from Hesiod's narrative. Some of the details supplied even in his own material, however, contradict one another. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Human Existence at the Time&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Indeed, as you point out, many sources, Hesiod included, envision humanity as existing during the Titanomachy. Chronologically, the story about humans being deprived of fire takes place after the end of the conflict between Kronos [Cronus] and Zeus, but at any rate, going by the Roman writer Hyginus, in his *Poetica Astronomica*, human beings did have possession of fire before Prometheus stole it on their behalf. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was on account of a trick that Prometheus had played on Zeus about the division of sacrificial oxen between the gods and humankind that, in indignation, the king of the gods took fire *away* from humans. Prometheus was then punished for giving it *back* to them. Moreover, this rendition of humans does not seem to have existed at the time of the war between Zeus and his father, since these were created in a collaboration project between the Olympian deities and the Titan brothers Prometheus and Epimetheus after the end of the hostilities with Kronos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Really Good Times**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Works and Days* and several later sources refer to the rule of Kronos over the world as the Golden Age, in what is referred to as the myth of the Five Ages of Man, with the Golden being the first and best one. We live (or at least Hesiod believed that *he*, circa 700s BC, dwelt) in the Iron Age, the last and worst of the five. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kronos' defeat marked the end of the Golden Age and the beginning of the Silver, which was eventually followed by Age of Bronze. Between that and the Iron Age was the Age of Heroes, where most of the action in Greek mythology happens, such as the life of Herakles [Hercules], the voyage of the Argonauts, and the Trojan War.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going by the chronology, the people created by Prometheus should fall somewhere in the Age of Bronze or that of Heroes. This is complicated by the fact that Prometheus' creation is supposed to have been mostly wiped out by the Flood in which Zeus deluged the Earth during the lifetime of Prometheus' son Deukalion [Deucalion].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Rulership, Cities, and Living Conditions**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Bringing the focus back to the time of Titanomachy, according to the *Works and Days*, &quot;the deathless gods who dwell on Olympos [Olympus]&quot; made the &quot;Golden race&quot; of men &quot;in the time of Kronos when he was reigning in heaven.&quot; These people were always partying, were never sick or unhappy, never had to work hard, and never grew tired or old. They eventually died but it was always in their sleep. The uncultivated earth freely produced food for them and they were &quot;rich in flocks and loved by the blessed gods.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Nonnus' *Dionysiaca* 41, the oldest city in the world was built by Kronos, and this was Berytos (at present day Beirut, capital of Lebanon), which was named in honour of Kronos' niece the Oceanid Beroe. The first of the Golden men came to live in Berytos at the same time that Kronos' son Zeus was born, which would imply that Zeus was not involved in the creation of this first race.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This story that Nonnus tells however, is explicitly set against a different version of the myth which he narrates, in the same book, regarding the foundation of Berytos. In this second account it is claimed that the city was established thousands of years later on, as the personification of a different Beroe, who was the daughter of the goddess Aphrodite by the Assyrian prince Adonis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Pausanias, at Olympia, the original site of the Olympic Games in Elis, a temple to Kronos was built by the Golden men. In that era, according to Plato's *Laws*, the world was also inhabited by *Daimones* [Daemons], &quot;Spirits,&quot; which in Plato's time meant a sort of divine being who was higher than humankind but lower than the gods, and who was thus able to engage in mortal affairs in a way that the gods were too transcendent to do.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These *Daimones* were appointed by Kronos as kings and rulers for the cities of mortals, essentially because they were &quot;better&quot; than lowly humans in the same way that humans are supposed to be on a &quot;more divine&quot; elevation of being than cattle and goats. Thus in that Age there was &quot;peace and modesty and orderliness and justice without stint,&quot; which &quot;made the tribes of men happy and free from feud.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *The Statesman*, Plato says that during Kronos's reign the concept of nations or countries did not exist, &quot;nor did men possess wives or children... or families&quot;. They had fruit in abundance collected from trees and other plants, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And they lived for the most part in the open air, without clothing or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bedding; for the climate was tempered for their comfort, and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; abundant grass that grew up out of the earth furnished them soft&#xD;&#xA;&gt; couches.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Iambi* fragments from the poet Callimachus seem to describe the notion that during the Golden Age animals could speak but that humans could not. Eventually Zeus reversed this scenario, which engendered a large part of the difficulties in relations between man and beast, and presumably it is the men of the Silver Age who were the first human beings to possess the power of speech.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Monsters&#xD;&#xA;--------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Origin of the Armour of Athena and Zeus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A small number of monsters occurs in stories set during the Titanomachy. Strictly speaking I would say that only one of them is described as &quot;roaming the world.&quot; According to Diodorus Siculus, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gaia, the Earth, had given birth to &quot;a certain frightful monster&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; named Aigis [Aegis], which &quot;breathed forth terrible flames of fire&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from its mouth&quot;. Emerging first in Phrygia, the monster burned a path&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of destruction throughout the entire region, across the Taurus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mountains and all the way to India, turning back around to scorch a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; swath of flames via Mt Lebanon, through Egypt and on into Libya...  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;~ *From [my Answer to another&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Question](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/9100/2682)*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The goddess Athena, to protect her homeland, for she had been born and raised in Libya, killed the monster and wore its hide as armour, which, from the creature's name, was also called the Aigis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyginus' *Poetica Astronomica* offers a rather different version of the myth, in which Helios, the Sun-Titan, had a daughter named Aix [Aex] who terrified the Titans since she had an exceedingly beautiful body but &quot;a most horrible face.&quot; After the Titans begged Gaia to hide Aix from them, the earth-goddess concealed Aix &quot;in a cave in the island of Crete&quot;, where she later became a nurse to the infant Zeus. Hyginus seems to go on to describe Aix as a sort of Gorgon and to imply that after he had grown up Zeus wore her skin as armour, which from her name was thus called the Aigis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Serpent-Bull**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ovid, another Roman writer, says in his *Fasti* that Gaia had given birth to a shocking monster in the shape of a bull that, in place of hindquarters, was composed of a snake. Whoever burned the intestines of this creature &quot;was destined to defeat the eternal gods.&quot; A gigantic ally of the Titans killed this monster serpent-bull and almost achieved this end, but the kite-bird snatched the innards and delivered them to Zeus, and was rewarded for the feat by being made into part of the constellation Boötes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ekhidna and Her Son**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Dionysiaca* 18, Nonnus describes a humongous &quot;dragon-footed&quot; creature he calls simply &quot;Ekhidna's [Echidna's] son&quot;, who spat venom into the Sky in such profusion that it created large clouds of poison, and who was so huge that the birds flying through the air would get caught in the vast mass of his dreadlocked hair, which hair he would then use to sweep these birds into his mouth to chew them live for dinner. This creature, apparently an ally of Kronos, was slain by the war-god Ares.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ekhidna's claim to fame is that she is the mother of about half of all the major monsters of Greek mythology. She never otherwise features in the Titanomachy but the implication that she had a son who was on Kronos' team during the Titans' War is that she was somewhere out there in the world in that era. Going by *Theogony* 295-305, she was ageless and immortal; part goddess, part nymph and part snake; subsisted on raw flesh, and dwelt in &quot;a glorious house&quot; granted to her by the gods in &quot;a cave deep down under a hollow rock far from the deathless gods and mortal men&quot; somewhere in a place called Arima.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Briareos-Aigaion**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In now-lost Titanomachy stories (e.g. from the epic by Eumelus of Corinth), the Hundred-Handed Giant Briareos, whose human name Homer tells us, in *Iliad* 1, is Aigaion [Aegaeon], as a monstrous ally of the Titans who has been born of the Sea. It is he who in the *Fasti* almost achieves the defeat of the gods by nearly feeding the serpent-bull monster's guts to the flames. In the *Theogony* and the *Iliad*, however, he is very much part of the camp of Zeus and the other Olympians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Jailer of the Abyss**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kampe [Campe], who was perhaps the largest monster in the universe, was a horrific winged, caterpillar-like creature with a scorpion-sting, and numerous heads and bodies, who had been posted by Kronos to guard the entrance to Tartaros [Tartarus], the vast storm-wracked pit of the Underworld in which the Titan had imprisoned his own brothers the triplet Cyclopes and the triplet Hundred-Handed Giants. Towards the end of the Titanomachy, Zeus killed Kampe and freed these six uncles of his, and they helped him to win the war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Titans and Other Deities Available for the Cast&#xD;&#xA;-----------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Winged Titans, River-Gods, and Oceanids**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At least three generations of Titans and pretty much every one of the major deities in the pantheon had been born by the time of the Titanomachy. Regarding the Titans, we know this because the first ever recruits in the war were the four children of the winged Titan Pallas, namely Nike, the Goddess of Victory, and her siblings Zelos (Zeal), Kratos (Power) and Bia (Violence). Pallas was himself a second-generation Titan, being the son of Kreios [Crius], one of the brothers of Kronos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Certain of the children of the eldest Titan Okeanos [Oceanus] had certainly been born. One of these was Pallas's wife, the Underworld river Styx, who was also the mother of his children. Styx's brother the river Akheron [Acheron] gave aid to the Titans and was afterwards cast into the Underworld for this by Zeus. Their sister Beroe is the Oceanid after whom Kronos named the city of Berytos. Another Oceanid, Metis, is the one who helped Zeus to trick Kronos into vomiting the children whom he had swallowed at their births. She became Athena's mother.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hermes, Dionysos, Zagreus, and Pan**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only one of the Twelve Olympians that I surmise to have been born *after* the end of the war is Hermes, since his birth tale in the Homeric Hymn to Hermes seems very much to be set in a time after Zeus has been established as the undisputed ruler of the universe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his Commentary of Virgil's *Aeneid*, however, Servius does place Hermes in a story about the wedding of Zeus and Hera, which by the commonest accounts should have occurred before or during the Titans' War, since the sons of Zeus and Hera are participants in the fight. (There are, though, somewhat esoteric allusions made by Nonnus and Callimachus to the idea either that this wedding day lasted for three hundred years, or that Zeus had to wait three centuries before he could marry Hera.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Two other major gods who were undoubtedly born millennia later are Dionysos [Dionysus] and Pan, both of whom bear several generations of earthbound mortal ancestry on their mothers' sides, with Pan typically occurring as a son of Hermes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Orphic mythology Dionysos is a reincarnation of Zagreus, an ancient son of Zeus born to his own daughter Kore before she became Persephone, the wife of Hades, the King of the Underworld. The tales of Zagreus contain a completely different version of the Titanomachy in which humans are created from mud mixed with the ashes of the Titans slain by Zeus after they have in turn cut Zagreus to pieces.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dominions&#xD;&#xA;---------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as I'm aware, we are nowhere supplied in the ancient sources with (even a loose) breakdown of the political structure of the universe before the ascendancy of Zeus and his team beyond a couple of references to Kronos &quot;reigning in&quot; or being &quot;the first king of heaven&quot;. According to Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautica* and Lycophron's *Alexandra*, after their release from their mother's womb, Kronos and Rhea attacked the preceding rulers of the world, two other Titans named Ophion and Eurynome, whom they wrestled and defeated, thereafter casting them into Tartaros or the Okeanos River.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If Ophion is supposed to be a cypher for Okeanos, then it seems that after Ouranos [Uranus], he was the first ruler of the universe. Presumably all the realms in which we see continuity, in terms of the presence of the dominant deities straight from primordial times through to the reign of Zeus, were ruled over by these gods during the Titanomachy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So Okeanos would have been the lord of the Okeanos River, which was his own body, which encircled the entire earth; and Pontos [Pontus] and Thalassa, the male and female personifications of the Mediterranean Sea, were probably envisioned as governing their own body/bodies. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Erebos [Erebus], the personification of the darkness of the Underworld, probably ruled the nether realm, perhaps together with his consort Nyx, the Goddess of Night; and Aither [Aether], who personified the bright upper air between the clouds and the dome of the Sky, probably reigned over the region which was his own body, maybe together with his consort Hemera (Daytime).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Orphic cosmology the passage of time and the cycle of the seasons is caused by the friction the two cosmic serpents Khronos [Chronus], the God of Time, and his consort Ananke (Inevitability), slithering against each other to cause the Sky-dome, around which they are wrapped, to rotate on an axis so that the constellations move across the heavens as the year (literally) rolls around. Thus this realm of Time would have been ruled over by these two primaeval divinities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Netherworld**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And yes, the Underworld was a conceived of a physical space. The body of Styx, who was the mother of Zeus's first recruits, flowed from a mountain in Arkadia [Arcadia] down into this realm, where, as we have seen, Kronos had incarcerated six of his brothers, guarded by a humongous monster nymph; and Zeus descended into this realm in order to free them.        &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;*Parts of the above have been adapted from my participation in a post about the Titanomachy on MythForum.com*&lt;/sup&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28790" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10375" RevisionGUID="68522fe9-44fc-490b-996f-54c41cb919e5" CreationDate="2022-04-16T15:59:35.853" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; added some details" Text="More Cohesion Than Consensus&#xD;&#xA;----------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is not a consensus, since there are so many variant traditions of these old myths, but a tendency toward a certain &quot;main stream&quot; of narrative and chronology is identifiable, much of it relying on Hesiod's texts—the *Theogony* and *Works and Days*—as a base, since he is considered, since ancient times, to be one of the earliest of all the mythographers. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The degree to which a myth might be described as &quot;mainstream&quot; or rather more obscure is the degree to which it adheres to or deviates from Hesiod's narrative. Some of the details supplied even in his own material, however, contradict one another. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Human Existence at the Time&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Indeed, as you point out, many sources, Hesiod included, envision humanity as existing during the Titanomachy. Chronologically, the story about humans being deprived of fire takes place after the end of the conflict between Kronos [Cronus] and Zeus, but at any rate, going by the Roman writer Hyginus, in his *Poetica Astronomica*, human beings did have possession of fire before Prometheus stole it on their behalf. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was on account of a trick that Prometheus had played on Zeus about the division of sacrificial oxen between the gods and humankind that, in indignation, the king of the gods took fire *away* from humans. Prometheus was then punished for giving it *back* to them. Moreover, this rendition of humans does not seem to have existed at the time of the war between Zeus and his father, since these were created in a collaboration project between the Olympian deities and the Titan brothers Prometheus and Epimetheus after the end of the hostilities with Kronos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Really Good Times**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Works and Days* and several later sources refer to the rule of Kronos over the world as the Golden Age, in what is referred to as the myth of the Five Ages of Man, with the Golden being the first and best one. We live (or at least Hesiod believed that *he*, circa 700s BC, dwelt) in the Iron Age, the last and worst of the five. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kronos' defeat marked the end of the Golden Age and the beginning of the Silver, which was eventually followed by the Age of Bronze. Between that and the Iron Age was the Age of Heroes, where most of the action in Greek mythology happens, such as the life of Herakles [Hercules], the voyage of the Argonauts, and the Trojan War.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Going by the chronology, the people created by Prometheus should represent the beginning of the Age of Heroes. The myth of the Flood of Prometheus' son Deukalion [Deucalion], complicates this, though, since Zeus supposedly used said flood to wipe these humans—the ones made by Prometheus—off the face of the earth. This was merely one generation after the Olympians had constructed the first woman Pandora, who would thus become the mother of modern humanity. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Rulership, Cities, and Living Conditions**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Bringing the focus back to the time of the Titanomachy, according to the *Works and Days*, &quot;the deathless gods who dwell on Olympos [Olympus]&quot; made the &quot;Golden race&quot; of men &quot;in the time of Kronos when he was reigning in heaven.&quot; These people were always partying, were never sick or unhappy, never had to work hard, and never grew tired or old. They eventually died but it was always in their sleep. The uncultivated earth freely produced food for them and they were &quot;rich in flocks and loved by the blessed gods.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Nonnus' *Dionysiaca* 41, the oldest city in the world was built by Kronos, and this was Berytos (at present day Beirut, capital of Lebanon), which was named in honour of Kronos' niece the Oceanid Beroe. The first of the Golden men came to live in Berytos at the same time that Kronos' son Zeus was born, which would imply that Zeus was not involved in the creation of this first race.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This story that Nonnus tells, however, is explicitly set against a different version of the myth which he narrates, in the same book, regarding the foundation of Berytos. In this second account it is claimed that the city was established thousands of years later on, as the personification of a different Beroe, who was the daughter of the goddess Aphrodite by the Assyrian prince Adonis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Pausanias, at Olympia, the original site of the Olympic Games in Elis, a temple to Kronos was built by the Golden men. In that era, according to Plato's *Laws*, the world was also inhabited by *Daimones* [Daemons], &quot;Spirits,&quot; which in Plato's time meant a sort of divine being who was higher than humankind but lower than the gods, and who was thus able to engage in mortal affairs in a way that the gods were too transcendent to do.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These *Daimones* were appointed by Kronos as kings and rulers for the cities of mortals, essentially because they were &quot;better&quot; than lowly humans in the same way that humans are supposed to be on a &quot;more divine&quot; elevation of being than cattle and goats. Thus in that Age there was &quot;peace and modesty and orderliness and justice without stint,&quot; which &quot;made the tribes of men happy and free from feud.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *The Statesman*, Plato says that during Kronos's reign the concept of nations or countries did not exist, &quot;nor did men possess wives or children... or families&quot;. They had fruit in abundance collected from trees and other plants, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And they lived for the most part in the open air, without clothing or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bedding; for the climate was tempered for their comfort, and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; abundant grass that grew up out of the earth furnished them soft&#xD;&#xA;&gt; couches.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Iambi* fragments from the poet Callimachus seem to describe the notion that during the Golden Age animals could speak but that humans could not. Eventually Zeus reversed this scenario, which engendered a large part of the difficulties in relations between man and beast, and presumably it is the men of the Silver Age who were the first human beings to possess the power of speech.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Monsters&#xD;&#xA;--------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Origin of the Armour of Athena and Zeus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A small number of monsters occurs in stories set during the Titanomachy. Strictly speaking I would say that only one of them is described as &quot;roaming the world.&quot; According to Diodorus Siculus, &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gaia, the Earth, had given birth to &quot;a certain frightful monster&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; named Aigis [Aegis], which &quot;breathed forth terrible flames of fire&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from its mouth&quot;. Emerging first in Phrygia, the monster burned a path&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of destruction throughout the entire region, across the Taurus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mountains and all the way to India, turning back around to scorch a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; swath of flames via Mt Lebanon, through Egypt and on into Libya...  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;~ *From [my Answer to another&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Question](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/9100/2682)*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The goddess Athena, to protect her homeland, for she had been born and raised in Libya, killed the monster and wore its hide as armour, which, from the creature's name, was also called the Aigis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyginus' *Poetica Astronomica* offers a rather different version of the myth, in which Helios, the Sun-Titan, had a daughter named Aix [Aex], who terrified the Titans since she had an exceedingly beautiful body but &quot;a most horrible face.&quot; After the Titans begged Gaia to hide Aix from them, the earth-goddess concealed Aix &quot;in a cave in the island of Crete&quot;, where she later became a nurse to the infant Zeus. Hyginus seems to go on to describe Aix as a sort of Gorgon and to imply that Zeus, after he had grown up, wore her skin as armour, which from her name was thus called the Aigis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Serpent-Bull**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ovid, another Roman writer, says in his *Fasti* that Gaia had given birth to a shocking monster in the shape of a bull that, in place of hindquarters, was composed of a snake. Whoever burned the intestines of this creature &quot;was destined to defeat the eternal gods.&quot; A gigantic ally of the Titans killed this monster serpent-bull and almost achieved this end, but the kite-bird snatched the innards and delivered them to Zeus, and was rewarded for the feat by being made into part of the constellation Boötes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ekhidna and Her Son**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Dionysiaca* 18, Nonnus describes a humongous &quot;dragon-footed&quot; creature he calls simply &quot;Ekhidna's [Echidna's] son&quot;, who spat venom into the Sky in such profusion that it created large clouds of poison, and who was so huge that the birds flying through the air would get caught in the vast mass of his dreadlocked hair, which hair he would then use to sweep these birds into his mouth to chew them live for dinner. This creature, apparently an ally of Kronos, was slain by the war-god Ares.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ekhidna's claim to fame is that she is the mother of about half of all the major monsters of Greek mythology. She never otherwise features in the Titanomachy but the implication that she had a son who was on Kronos' team during the Titans' War is that she was somewhere out there in the world in that era. Going by *Theogony* 295-305, she was ageless and immortal; part goddess, part nymph and part snake; subsisting on raw flesh, and dwelling in &quot;a glorious house&quot; granted to her by the gods in &quot;a cave deep down under a hollow rock far from the deathless gods and mortal men&quot; somewhere in a place called Arima.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Briareos-Aigaion**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In now-lost Titanomachy stories (e.g. from the epic by Eumelus of Corinth), the Hundred-Handed Giant Briareos, whose human name Homer tells us, in *Iliad* 1, is Aigaion [Aegaeon], is a monstrous ally of the Titans who has been born of the Sea. It is he who in the *Fasti* almost achieves the defeat of the gods by nearly feeding the serpent-bull monster's guts to the flames. In the *Theogony* and the *Iliad*, however, he is very much part of the camp of Zeus and the other Olympians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Jailoress of the Abyss**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kampe [Campe], who was perhaps the largest monster in the universe, was a horrific winged, caterpillar-like creature with a scorpion-sting, and numerous heads and bodies, who had been posted by Kronos to guard the entrance to Tartaros [Tartarus], the vast storm-wracked pit of the Underworld in which the Titan had imprisoned his own brothers the triplet Cyclopes and the triplet Hundred-Handed Giants. Towards the end of the Titanomachy, Zeus killed Kampe and freed these six uncles of his, and they helped him to win the war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Titans and Other Deities Available for the Cast&#xD;&#xA;-----------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**River-Gods, Oceanids, and Winged Titans**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At least three generations of Titans and pretty much every one of the major deities in the pantheon had been born by the time of the Titanomachy. Regarding the Titans, we know this because the first ever recruits in the war were the four children of the winged Titan Pallas, namely Nike, the Goddess of Victory, and her siblings Zelos (Zeal), Kratos (Power) and Bia (Violence). Pallas was himself a second-generation Titan, being the son of Kreios [Crius], one of the brothers of Kronos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Certain of the children of the eldest Titan Okeanos [Oceanus] had definitely been born. One of these was Pallas's wife, the Underworld river Styx, who was also the mother of his children. Styx's brother the river Akheron [Acheron] gave aid to the Titans and was afterwards cast into the Underworld for this by Zeus. Their sister Beroe is the Oceanid after whom Kronos named the city of Berytos. Another Oceanid, Metis, is the one who helped Zeus to trick Kronos into vomiting the children whom he had swallowed at their births. She became Athena's mother.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hermes, Dionysos, Zagreus, and Pan**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only one of the Twelve Olympians that I surmise to have been born *after* the end of the war is Hermes, since his birth tale in the Homeric Hymn to Hermes seems very much to be set in a time after Zeus has been established as the undisputed ruler of the universe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his Commentary on Virgil's *Aeneid*, however, Servius does place Hermes in a story about the wedding of Zeus and Hera, which by the commonest accounts should have occurred before or during the Titans' War, since the sons of Zeus and Hera are participants in the fight. (There are, though, somewhat esoteric allusions made by Nonnus and Callimachus to the idea either that this wedding day lasted for three hundred years, or that Zeus had to wait three centuries before he could marry Hera.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Two other major gods who were undoubtedly born millennia later are Dionysos [Dionysus] and Pan, both of whom bear several generations of earthbound mortal ancestry on their mothers' sides, with Pan typically occurring as a son of Hermes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Orphic mythology Dionysos is a reincarnation of Zagreus, an ancient son of Zeus born to his own daughter Kore before she became Persephone, the wife of Hades, the King of the Underworld. The tales of Zagreus contain a completely different version of the Titanomachy in which humans are created from mud mixed with the ashes of the Titans slain by Zeus for having chopped Zagreus to pieces.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dominions&#xD;&#xA;---------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as I'm aware, we are nowhere supplied in the ancient sources with even a loose breakdown of the political structure of the universe before the ascendancy of Zeus and his team beyond a couple of references to Kronos &quot;reigning in heaven&quot; or being &quot;the first king of heaven&quot;. According to Apollonius Rhodius' *Argonautica* and Lycophron's *Alexandra*, after their release from their mother's womb, Kronos and Rhea attacked the preceding rulers of the world, two other Titans named Ophion and Eurynome, whom they wrestled and defeated, thereafter casting them into Tartaros or the Okeanos River.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If Ophion is supposed to be a cypher for Okeanos, then it seems that after Ouranos [Uranus], he was the first ruler of the universe. Presumably all the realms in which we see continuity, in terms of the presence of the dominant deities straight from primordial times through to the reign of Zeus, were ruled over by these gods during the Titanomachy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So Okeanos would have been the lord of the Okeanos River, which was his own body, which encircled the entire earth; and Pontos [Pontus] and Thalassa, the male and female personifications of the Mediterranean Sea, were probably envisioned as governing their own body/bodies. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Erebos [Erebus], the personification of the darkness of the Underworld, probably ruled the nether realm, perhaps together with his consort Nyx, the Goddess of Night; and Aither [Aether], who personified the bright upper air between the clouds and the dome of the Sky, probably reigned over the region which was his own body, maybe together with his consort Hemera (Daytime).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Orphic cosmology the passage of time and the cycle of the seasons is caused by the friction of the two cosmic serpents Khronos [Chronus], the God of Time, and his consort Ananke (Inevitability), slithering against each other to cause the Sky-dome, around which they are wrapped, to rotate on an axis so that the constellations move across the heavens as the year (literally) rolls around. Thus this realm of Time would have been ruled over by these two primaeval divinities.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Theogony* 421-427 statements are made to the effect that Hekate, the goddess of witchcraft, held some special position of privilege &quot;on earth, in heaven and in the sea&quot;, that this was a prerogative she possessed even during the reign of Kronos, and that Zeus respected this by allowing her to maintain her authority upon his accession to the throne. In Lines 411-412, &quot;Zeus Kronides [*Kronos' Son*] honoured her above all.&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Netherworld**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And yes, the Underworld was a conceived of a physical space. The body of Styx, who was the mother of Zeus's first recruits, flowed from a mountain in Arkadia [Arcadia] down into this realm, where, as we have seen, Kronos had incarcerated six of his brothers, guarded by a humongous monster nymph; and Zeus descended into this realm in order to free them.        &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;*Parts of the above have been adapted from my participation in a post about the Titanomachy on MythForum.com*&lt;/sup&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28791" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="8033" RevisionGUID="604c34ca-461a-4171-9602-fb6bf57544c5" CreationDate="2022-04-16T20:53:00.923" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="Hera&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of the three sisters Hera is the only one regarding whom I have found mention of her direct involvement in a narrated fight scene.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Dionysos' War in India**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Book 36 of Nonnus' *Dionysiaca*,&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; the Olympian deities square off against one another in a battle during the war waged by the young wine-god Dionysos [Dionysus] against his kinsman King Deriades of India. Lines 28-82 thereof relate the confrontation between Hera, on the one hand, who supports Deriades; and, opposing her on the other hand, Artemis, who is there to back up her own half-brother Dionysos. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Armed with a bow and arrows, Artemis fires everything she's got at Hera. Before the first arrow reaches the queen of the gods, however, Hera has fashioned herself a makeshift shield by grabbing a nearby cloud and compressing &quot;it around her shoulders&quot;. When Artemis's volley is over, the cloud is &quot;covered thick with arrows all over.&quot; Nonetheless &quot;the arrows were stuck in the dark cloud, but the veil was untorn...&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Hera picked up a rough missile of the air, a frozen mass of hail,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; circled it and struck Artemis with the jagged mass. The sharp stony&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lump broke the curves of the bow. But the consort of Zeus did not stop&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the fight there, but struck Artemis flat on the skin of the breast,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and Artemis, smitten by the weapon of ice, emptied her quiver upon the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ground.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hera then spends the majority of the rest of the passage belittling and disparaging Artemis, who, &quot;discomfited and drunken with fear&quot;, is then briskly swept off the battlefield by her twin brother Apollon [Apollo].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like much of the rest of the *Dionysiaca*, Nonnus is pointedly imitating Homer's *Iliad* with this scene and the whole battle in general, which he has based on the fight among the Olympians in *Iliad* 20 &amp; 21.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Trojan War**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Artemis cuts a much more pathetic figure in Homer, and her only role in the *Iliad* seems to be showing up so that her stepmother can slap her around. *Iliad* 20.70 sets the scene simply by saying that Artemis “stood forth” against Hera while other deities are about to clash. We eventually return to the two goddesses in the next book, where Apollon reveres their uncle Poseidon too much to fight against him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Artemis calls Apollon out on this, since her twin had previously boasted about facing off against the sea-god. But no sooner has she done this than Hera tells her off for daring to step to the queen of the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;But if that's your idea, to vie with me in strength, then let this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; teach you who is stronger.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; So saying, she seized the other's wrists in her left hand, snatched&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Artemis' bow and quiver from her shoulders and, laughing all the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; while, boxed her on the ears with the weapons as she writhed,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; scattering the winged arrows. Artemis fled weeping from her... She&#xD;&#xA;&gt; took her tears with her, but left the bow and arrows where they lay.&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hera vs Herakles**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to *Iliad* 5.392, &quot;Hera, too felt the agony, when the mighty Herakles [*Hercules*]... pierced her right breast with his triple-barbed arrow.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The A scholion on this line elaborates that this occurred during Herakles' vengeance campaign against his cousin King Neleus of Pylos, a battle in which Neleus was supported by certain of the gods, including his own father Poseidon, his uncle Hades and his aunt Hera. Herakles was, in his turn, supported by *his* own father Zeus and his half-sister Athena. Hades and Hera were both grievously wounded by Herakles, while Neleus and nearly all of his sons were killed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Presumably supplying an alternate occasion for Hera's violent encounter with her super-strong stepson, Ptolemy Hephaestion says &quot;that Hera was wounded on her right by Herakles&quot; while she was fighting on the side of the triple-bodied giant Geryones when the hero came to rustle the giant's cattle as his tenth task. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond sustaining an injury, however, we have no details about how Hera fared in whichever battle it is she's supposed to have contended with the great hero. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Gigantomachy**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a rather more passive role, Hera appears in Apollodorus' *Library* 1.6.2 where she gets used as a pretty bizarre form of bait in a battle in which, for a change, Hera and Herakles are fighting on the same side.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;During the Giants' attack on the home of the gods on Mt Olympos [Olympus], one of their leaders, named Porphyrion, attacked Herakles and Hera. For whatever reason, &quot;Zeus instilled him [*Porphyrion*] with a passion for Hera, and when he tore her robes and would have raped her, she called for help, whereat Zeus smote him with a thunderbolt and Herakles shot him dead with an arrow.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Based on that text alone it doesn't sound much like Hera was even *in* the actual fray to begin with, but apart from mythography we also have artistic testimony to her participation in the Giants' War. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An Attic red-figure amphora, currently in the Musée du Louvre in Paris, France, depicts this war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Herakles, Porphyrion &amp; Hera][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;The above scene is a detail thereof,&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; described as follows by Theoi.com, wherein&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;the lust-filled Porphyrion seizes the goddess Hera, ripping her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dress. The goddess' spear is cast awry and her Amazon-crescent shield&#xD;&#xA;&gt; seems to slip from her fingers. Porphyrion, draped in a panther skin&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and holding a torch, turns to face Zeus (above, not shown). The god&#xD;&#xA;&gt; aims his lightning bolt at the giant. To the left Heracles also comes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to the rescue, aiming an arrow at the giant.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hera is generally otherwise attacking Giants in portrayals of the battle between them and the Olympians.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Hera vs Phoitos][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;Here (above) she is, on an Attic red-figure kylix (now in the Antikensammlung Berlin),&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; about to skewer the Giant Phoitos with a spear.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Caere Gigantomachy Amphora][3]][3]  &#xD;&#xA;On the right-hand side edge of this sketch (above)&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; of a black-figure amphora from Caere (now at the Louvre), the Giant Harpolykos is being stabbed with a knife by Hera.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Only bits and pieces of the goddess survive from the East Frieze of the Altar of Zeus at Pergamon where she is portrayed in a chariot with her daughter Hebe as their horses and vehicle are trampling one of the Gigantes beneath them. According to the Second Vatican Mythographer, Juno (the Roman equivalent of Hera) rode in a chariot and used a spear, although this is not in the context of any fight scene. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On p. 455 of *Early Greek Myth: A Guide to Literary and Artistic Sources*,&lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt; Timothy Gantz describes a Pontic amphora (now at the British Museum in London) which shows &quot;Herakles squared off in single combat against a woman armed with spear and shield who is... very likely Hera, sporting a goat horn extending from her cap&quot; or from her head (apparently an attribute of Juno Sospita in Etruscan and early Roman art).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Demeter&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of what I have found, the closest to Demeter appearing explicitly in a fight scene in writing is in the late Roman poem by Claudian, namely the *Rape of Proserpina*, in which Ceres (the Roman Demeter) heads out in search of her abducted daughter Proserpina (the Roman version of Persephone). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Coming to the slopes of Mt Aetna on the island of Sicily, she seeks out timber from which to fashion flaming torches to light her way, at which point, &quot;with angry hand she brandishes her axe, ready to strike Jove [*i.e. Zeus*] himself.&quot; As she is all alone in the scene, however, no such dramatic occurrence takes place and indeed all she does is create her torches before setting off on her journey. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So once again it falls to the ancient artwork to provide us with the pertinent information. The same amphora at the Louvre which displays Hera being attacked by Porphyrion also contains Demeter assailing a Giant with a spear and, as it happens, with a flaming torch as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Demeter Gigantomachy][4]][4]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;She is the female figure at the centre of this image,&lt;sup&gt;7&lt;/sup&gt; looking like she's about to use the butt of her spear to pommel the Giant upon whom she's descending while gripping a lit torch in her left hand (which, depending on how one might interpret it, perhaps she has just used to set the Giant's hair on fire).&lt;/sub&gt;    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Virtually nothing remains of the goddess from the large Gigantomachy sculpture on Zeus's Pergamon Altar, but Francis Queyrel interprets some bits and pieces as Demeter using a pair of torches against a Giant named Erysikhthon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Homeric Hymn to Demeter addresses her as Khrysaoros, meaning She &quot;Of the Golden Blade,&quot; likely referring to a curved sword or a scythe. Theoi.com claims that the goddess &quot;was depicted in scenes of the... War of the Giants... wielding a sword, which may have been the golden blade; or the blade might instead be a golden sickle which she used to harvest the first crops of wheat.&quot; I have not seen, however, any ancient depiction of Demeter with such an implement.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As it turns out, by the way, the original DC-Poison-Ivy character in Greek mythology, would actually be Dionysos rather than Demeter. The goddess is never described using vines and plants to attack opponents, but this is standard when it comes to Dionysos. As a matter of fact, uncannily rapid-growth ivy (maybe not necessarily the poison variety thereof) is one of his favourite weapons of choice.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hestia&#xD;&#xA;------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The extremely domestic deity among the three sisters in view here, rather than Hera, would be Hestia. As opposed to simply fire in any form, she is the personification of the decidedly non-violent and closely controlled flames used to cook food and to warm the house.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She barely features in any myths at all and the only certainty we seem to have about her participation in the Titans' War is Hesiod's statement in *Theogony* 667 that all of Kronos's children, &quot;both male and female,&quot; fought in the war against their own father. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unsurprisingly, Hestia does not feature in any battle-scene artwork like her sisters do.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Notes**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. All *Dionysiaca* quotes taken from pp. 5-7 of Nonnos: *Dionysiaca*, with an English Translation by W.H.D. Rouse; Mythological Introduction &amp; Notes by H.J. Rose; &amp; Notes on Text Criticism by L.R. Lind, in Three Volumes—Vol. III: Books XXXVI-XLVIII, 1942. Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA, &amp; William Heinemann Ltd, London. &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. Kline, A.S. 2009. &quot;BkXXI:383-525 The Immortals quarrel,&quot; Homer: The *Iliad*, Poetry in Translation, viewed 11 May 2021, https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad21.php#anchor_Toc239246377&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. Abstracted from&gt; Ravaisson, M.F.F. 1875. *Monuments grecs: Une amphore peinte du Musée du Louvre représentant le combat des dieux et des géants*. L'association pour l'encouragement des études grecques en France.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;4. Image sourced from Atsma, A. 2000-2017. &quot;K4.3 Hera &amp; Giant Phoetus,&quot; Theoi, viewed 11 May 2021, https://www.theoi.com/Gallery/K4.3.html&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;5. Source: Wikia.org. &quot;Harpolykos,&quot; Greek Mythology Wiki, viewed 11 May 2021, https://greekmythology.wikia.org/wiki/Harpolykos&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;6. Gantz, T. 1993. *Early Greek Myth: A Guide to Literary and Artistic Sources.* The Johns Hopkins University Press, Baltimore &amp; London.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;7. Abstracted from&gt; ArchaiOptix. 2011. *Suessula Painter ARV 1344 1 gigantomachy (01).jpg*, Wikimedia Commons, viewed 11 May 2021, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Suessula_Painter_ARV_1344_1_gigantomachy_(01).jpg&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/FXGrD.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/QzGVl.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ZGSCH.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/KW6r8.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28792" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10376" RevisionGUID="b8e054d5-c7fd-4e9d-9ae9-30e0630ba087" CreationDate="2022-04-16T21:34:32.287" UserId="8896" Text="I've seen movies and tv shows that feature mermaids shapeshifting to grow legs (Pirates of the Caribbean) and I'm wondering if this has any ancient myths behind them?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28794" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10376" RevisionGUID="b8e054d5-c7fd-4e9d-9ae9-30e0630ba087" CreationDate="2022-04-16T21:34:32.287" UserId="8896" Text="Can mermaids shapeshift and grow human legs to walk on land?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28795" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10376" RevisionGUID="b8e054d5-c7fd-4e9d-9ae9-30e0630ba087" CreationDate="2022-04-16T21:34:32.287" UserId="8896" Text="|european-folklore|modern-influence|medieval-europe|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28797" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10377" RevisionGUID="08506863-1d1f-4eeb-b96f-7a82a609f300" CreationDate="2022-04-18T07:40:44.617" UserId="53" Text="This theme seems to have become popular in mainstream culture from Hans Christian Andersen's *The Little Mermaid*.  A 19th century fairy story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the idea of a water creature like a mermaid giving up her tail to live on land goes back to at least the 14th century.  &#xD;&#xA;The folk story of Melusine, a water nymph living in a holy well or river, can be dated to this time.  Melusine would change her tail for legs to live on land, except for Saturdays, when she went back to the water.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a version of the story linking Melusine to both Scotland and to the Isle of Avalon.  Thus linking her to Arthurian legend.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There have been many retellings and reworkings of that story, keeping the basic theme of a mermaid seeking to live on land for the love of a man.  I've never heard of a version with a male water creature.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28799" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10377" RevisionGUID="79e08444-2304-49a9-bfc5-cb273e8db331" CreationDate="2022-04-18T07:46:28.313" UserId="53" Comment="Added detail" Text="This theme seems to have become popular in mainstream culture from Hans Christian Andersen's *The Little Mermaid*.  A 19th century fairy story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the idea of a water creature like a mermaid giving up her tail to live on land goes back to at least the 14th century.  &#xD;&#xA;The folk story of Melusine, a water nymph living in a holy well or river, can be dated to this time.  Melusine would change her tail for legs to live on land with her love Raymond, except for Saturdays, when she went back to the water.  This appears in a collection of tales compiled by Jean d'Arras about 1390.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a version of the story linking Melusine to both Scotland and to the Isle of Avalon.  Thus linking her to Arthurian legend.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There have been many retellings and reworkings of that story, keeping the basic theme of a mermaid seeking to live on land for the love of a man.  I've never heard of a version with a male water creature.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28800" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10378" RevisionGUID="d428a138-b79c-402c-aab1-b7a161418391" CreationDate="2022-04-18T19:17:02.230" UserId="4022" Text="In Pietro Pucci's _Song of the Sirens_ essay collection, he mentions in passing that the Sirens are &quot;the muses of Hades&quot; (chapter 9, page 132). As far as I can tell, there's no further explanation or elaboration, just a mention in passing while discussing Odysseus's reliability as narrator.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pucci seems reputable, so I imagine this comes from some genuine ancient source, but I've never heard it before. Does anyone know of an ancient author calling the Sirens &quot;the muses of Hades&quot; or anything along those lines?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28802" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10378" RevisionGUID="d428a138-b79c-402c-aab1-b7a161418391" CreationDate="2022-04-18T19:17:02.230" UserId="4022" Text="Why are the Sirens the &quot;muses of Hades&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28803" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10378" RevisionGUID="d428a138-b79c-402c-aab1-b7a161418391" CreationDate="2022-04-18T19:17:02.230" UserId="4022" Text="|greek|source-request|odyssey|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28804" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="10376" RevisionGUID="94e6549b-d139-4199-8b4e-8aecea5cf9e6" CreationDate="2022-04-22T17:22:49.870" UserId="53" Comment="Added tag" Text="|european-folklore|modern-influence|medieval-europe|mermaids|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28806" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10379" RevisionGUID="592a2fad-4586-433c-96f8-44e69b362cde" CreationDate="2022-04-26T02:24:22.457" UserId="9181" Text="The myth of Draupadi is found in the famous Hinduism mythological epic poem Mahabharat where she is disrobed by her brother in law in front of her five powerful husbands, in the King's Court full of great righteous super powerful warriors, all bearing silent spectators to the act being committed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For a starter pack, kindly go through the character's Wikipedia page -&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draupadi&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ultimately as per different versions either she is divinely rescued via supernatural intervention from the Hindu deity Krishna, whom she desperately prays as the last resort, or in some other versions of the epic it is found that she herself gets out of the glaring crime through her adept speech on rules, regulations, and arguments on Justice and righteousness.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My question revolves around comparative myths of similar nature that maybe found in other cultures. Need not be complete copy paste, but atleast some elements of the above written facts and themes must be present in the parallel myth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Please give any similar instances, if any. &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28808" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10379" RevisionGUID="592a2fad-4586-433c-96f8-44e69b362cde" CreationDate="2022-04-26T02:24:22.457" UserId="9181" Text="Are myths related to and comparable to Draupadi found in other culture's myths also?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28809" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10379" RevisionGUID="592a2fad-4586-433c-96f8-44e69b362cde" CreationDate="2022-04-26T02:24:22.457" UserId="9181" Text="|comparative|hindu|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28810" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10380" RevisionGUID="ddb2d77d-4ae5-4dc7-9dbc-1426f739e27d" CreationDate="2022-04-27T12:38:19.463" UserId="5511" Text="[Nahum][1] 3:5&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“Behold, I am against you,” declares the Lord of hosts;&#xD;&#xA;“And I will lift up your skirts over your face,&#xD;&#xA;And show to the nations your nakedness&#xD;&#xA;And to the kingdoms your disgrace.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nahum" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28812" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10381" RevisionGUID="fad80425-b89a-477d-90a9-aa85a27a941f" CreationDate="2022-04-27T19:09:05.760" UserId="9185" Text="Wanderers take thier journey either alone or with a family of like minded &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The path of a hermeticist is the same as a hermet studying nature and living and studying with and within oneself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The wisdom found is inner and not somthing somebody can just tell u ... the journey itself is the initiation the even tho we all come to reach the same universal truths perspectivly we are all alone. Because one thing we all agree on nobody has same perspective so a hermetic path is hermeticly sealed by perspective and to each thier own path!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28814" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10382" RevisionGUID="96403c50-a607-4035-9d80-4cc0f65e153d" CreationDate="2022-04-28T13:23:39.150" UserId="5511" Text="It's a tiny mistranslation. The Latin actually reads &quot;*in orbe (earth)*&quot;. Hades is the underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Ovid (“Metamorphoses” V, 551),the sirens were formerly handmaidens of Persephone, who at one point gets abducted by Hades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Demeter then gives the sirens the bodies of birds, and sent them to the lower world (earth) to assist in the search of her daughter Persephone. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; an quia, cum legeret vernos Proserpina flores, in comitum numero,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; doctae Sirenes, eratis?                &#xD;&#xA;&gt; quam postquam toto frustra&#xD;&#xA;&gt; quaesistis **in orbe**, protinus, et **vestram sentirent aequora curam**,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; posse super fluctus alarum insistere remis optastis facilesque deos&#xD;&#xA;&gt; habuistis et artus vidistis vestros subitis flavescere pennis.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; But why have you, Sirens, skilled in song, daughters of Acheloüs, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; feathers and claws of birds, while still bearing human faces? Is it&#xD;&#xA;&gt; because you were numbered among the companions, when Proserpine&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gathered the flowers of Spring? **When you had searched in vain for her**&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **on land**, you wanted, then, **to cross the waves** on beating wings, so&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that the waters would also know of your trouble.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They eventually gave up and settled on the flowery island of Anthemoessa.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28816" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10382" RevisionGUID="7b6cab08-c76d-4a1a-8731-3ddf73bbf3f1" CreationDate="2022-04-28T13:31:20.907" UserId="5511" Comment="deleted 12 characters in body" Text="It's a tiny mistranslation. The Latin actually reads &quot;*in orbe (earth)*&quot;. Hades is the underworld.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Ovid (“Metamorphoses” V, 551),the sirens were formerly handmaidens of Persephone, who at one point gets abducted by Hades.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Demeter then gives the sirens the bodies of birds, and sent them to the lower world (earth) to assist in the search of her daughter Persephone. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; an quia, cum legeret vernos Proserpina flores, in comitum numero,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; doctae Sirenes, eratis?                &#xD;&#xA;&gt; quam postquam toto frustra&#xD;&#xA;&gt; quaesistis **in orbe**, protinus, et vestram sentirent aequora curam,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; posse super fluctus alarum insistere remis optastis facilesque deos&#xD;&#xA;&gt; habuistis et artus vidistis vestros subitis flavescere pennis.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; But why have you, Sirens, skilled in song, daughters of Acheloüs, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; feathers and claws of birds, while still bearing human faces? Is it&#xD;&#xA;&gt; because you were numbered among the companions, when Proserpine&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gathered the flowers of Spring? When you had searched in vain for her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **on land**, you wanted, then, to cross the waves on beating wings, so&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that the waters would also know of your trouble.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;They eventually gave up and settled on the flowery island of Anthemoessa.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28817" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10383" RevisionGUID="67383862-fc71-4f23-a9c7-89fd2dc870c1" CreationDate="2022-04-28T13:37:34.553" UserId="5511" Text="The 'h&quot; in hermit is unetymological, in Dutch for example we still say &quot;[eremiet][1]&quot;, not &quot;heremiet&quot;. The word is not etymologically linked to Hermes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/nl/eremiet" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28819" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10384" RevisionGUID="a3a5c99c-0cf5-4427-b7a9-d45459f6b3f1" CreationDate="2022-04-28T17:29:21.737" UserId="398" Text="Just to expand on what Codosaur said, here's the [Etymonline](https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=hermit) link:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; early 12c., &quot;religious recluse, one who dwells apart in a solitary place for religious meditation,&quot; from Old French hermit, *ermit* &quot;hermit, recluse,&quot; from Late Latin eremita, from Greek eremites, literally &quot;person of the desert,&quot; from *eremia* &quot;a solitude, an uninhabited region, a waste,&quot; from *erēmos* &quot;uninhabited, empty, desolate, bereft,&quot; from PIE \**erem*- &quot;to rest, be quiet&quot; (source also of Sanskrit *ramate* &quot;to rest;&quot; Lithuanian *rimti* &quot;to be quiet,&quot; Gothic *rimis* &quot;rest,&quot; Old Irish *fo-rimim* &quot;to set, lay&quot;). **The unetymological h- first appeared in Medieval Latin heremite.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hyper-correction was common in Medieval Latin. An initial h- would often be written but unpronounced (in Classical Latin, as well as Medieval Latin), and so perhaps someone saw the word and connected it to Hermes or just was confused and added the h- even though it didn't belong. You see similar mix-ups with ae/oe. The Latin word for &quot;sky&quot; is *caelum*, but you'll often see it printed as *coelum*. Turns out both were pronounced as &quot;e&quot; and even written as such (thus: **cel**estial), leading to the confusion." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28822" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10385" RevisionGUID="c6925322-a3ac-40e1-9791-82bff0ef6c5e" CreationDate="2022-04-30T22:20:38.263" UserId="9189" Text="I've been reading &quot;Circe&quot; and it got me thinking: Circe's mother was a water nymph named Perse. Perse's parents were Oceanos and Tethys, who were both Titans. Why then is Perse a Nymph if both of her parents are Titans? &#xD;&#xA;I have some possible ideas but it's all just speculation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some further info is that Perse was one of 3,000 siblings. If you want to read what they have about her on Wikipedia, here's the link. &#xD;&#xA;https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perse_(mythology)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28824" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10385" RevisionGUID="c6925322-a3ac-40e1-9791-82bff0ef6c5e" CreationDate="2022-04-30T22:20:38.263" UserId="9189" Text="Why was Perse a Nymph and not a Titan like both of her parents?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28825" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10385" RevisionGUID="c6925322-a3ac-40e1-9791-82bff0ef6c5e" CreationDate="2022-04-30T22:20:38.263" UserId="9189" Text="|greek|titans|nymphs|circe|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28826" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10386" RevisionGUID="61b771ce-a371-47f3-bff3-d41720ad11a9" CreationDate="2022-05-01T00:14:23.620" UserId="9193" Text="This is actually because of a ritual practiced in ancient near eastern cultures. A king (considered a god) would ritually sleep with the goddess of the city in the temple. In order to enact this, he would actually sleep with one of the &quot;temple virgins&quot; serving in that goddess' temple. So, by this &quot;math&quot;, only one of the parents (the temple virgin) was human." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28831" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5035" RevisionGUID="883baaa6-3086-43d8-8902-a464db708fde" CreationDate="2022-05-04T10:02:34.920" UserId="53" Comment="We now have a mermaid tag" Text="In images from Roman to contemporary Britain, mermaids are usually not wearing any clothes. Other types of fairies, spirits, and gods are usually depicted at least partly dressed.  &#xD;&#xA;Why then are mermaids naked? Or aren't they?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are mermaids naked in written sources like fairy tales and legends, too? And do they explain the nudity?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28832" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5035" RevisionGUID="883baaa6-3086-43d8-8902-a464db708fde" CreationDate="2022-05-04T10:02:34.920" UserId="53" Comment="We now have a mermaid tag" Text="|celtic|european-folklore|fairies|mermaids|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28833" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3114" RevisionGUID="88967a30-f30b-4bf8-b7d0-7f77c18668f6" CreationDate="2022-05-04T15:01:35.233" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="28834" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10388" RevisionGUID="a1f21934-1200-4e16-90bb-e1e670b7dbdc" CreationDate="2022-05-04T18:49:19.930" UserId="53" Text="Mermaids are [tag:mythical-creatures] that are human above the waist, usually female.  Below the waist are nominally fish, although are usually depicted with the tail flukes horizontal, like a cetacean." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28836" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10388" RevisionGUID="a1f21934-1200-4e16-90bb-e1e670b7dbdc" CreationDate="2022-05-04T18:49:19.930" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28837" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10389" RevisionGUID="8c5b334c-c0d1-47ea-865f-ea0b4a746c5b" CreationDate="2022-05-04T18:49:19.930" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28839" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10389" RevisionGUID="8c5b334c-c0d1-47ea-865f-ea0b4a746c5b" CreationDate="2022-05-04T18:49:19.930" UserId="53" Text="For questions regarding Mermaids, mythical creatures half woman, half fish." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28840" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4617" RevisionGUID="0ca60921-0647-47fa-a64d-acabc0ebe240" CreationDate="2022-05-04T18:52:40.833" UserId="53" Comment="Created wiki" Text="Cryptozoology describes [tag:mythical-creatures] that are believed to exist in the wild on Earth today.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Examples include Bigfoot, Yeti or Loch Ness Monster.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28841" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4618" RevisionGUID="ef75442b-4224-42e8-a439-193afdd8c7c8" CreationDate="2022-05-04T18:52:40.833" UserId="53" Comment="Created wiki" Text="For questions regarding myths of creatures believed to exist in the wild today" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28842" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="4969" RevisionGUID="aa4f31dd-27ff-44ca-b9a9-f3ea0e77a10d" CreationDate="2022-05-05T08:04:55.497" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="28847" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6480" RevisionGUID="9aa0043e-4841-4b96-bb3e-2624ddfa9dd0" CreationDate="2022-05-05T15:08:05.733" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="28848" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10391" RevisionGUID="ff767d58-c866-406c-aa14-6eeace0df23c" CreationDate="2022-05-05T18:39:53.427" UserId="8838" Text="My understanding is that the nymphs were offspring of Titans; hence, not Titans proper.&#xD;&#xA;The nymphs were born of Oceanus and Tethys." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28850" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10392" RevisionGUID="7e7f4372-05ca-4f7e-87df-e05ac3ff1e66" CreationDate="2022-05-06T04:26:15.207" UserId="9206" Text="Wikipedia lists them both as parents but gives no detail as to how it came about to be.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28852" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10392" RevisionGUID="7e7f4372-05ca-4f7e-87df-e05ac3ff1e66" CreationDate="2022-05-06T04:26:15.207" UserId="9206" Text="What is the story behind / are the circumstances surrounding the conception of Bastet by Ra and Isis?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28853" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10392" RevisionGUID="7e7f4372-05ca-4f7e-87df-e05ac3ff1e66" CreationDate="2022-05-06T04:26:15.207" UserId="9206" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28858" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5857" RevisionGUID="d3900c69-923a-4e57-9a7f-030ed4cee833" CreationDate="2022-05-07T05:02:50.277" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="28859" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10394" RevisionGUID="9d354b06-a574-4706-8b26-3f1d32b4df4d" CreationDate="2022-05-08T01:30:28.303" UserId="9214" Text="Modern fiction about fairies often describes them as being divided into Seelie and Unseelie Courts or Summer and Winter Courts, sometimes Spring, Summer, Autumn and Winter Courts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A lot of people seem to believe that this is an established part of fairy legend - when I'm talking to fans of Gothic &quot;real faeries&quot; (as opposed to the child-friendly Enid Blyton kind) they often mention this.  But I'm not sure that it actually is any older/more authentic than those things.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia says that the idea of Seelie and Unseelie Courts does occasionally appear in Scottish folktales, and that they may have got the idea from Norse mythology, which does, at least sometimes, divide its &quot;elves&quot; (&quot;*alfar*&quot;) into &quot;light elves&quot; and &quot;dark elves&quot;. &#xD;&#xA; &quot;The Seelie Court&quot; is mentioned in the Scottish ballad *Allison Gross*, and according to https://britishfairies.wordpress.com/2021/01/24/the-seelie-and-unseelie-courts/ the first record of that ballad is from 1783 and it may be older still.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Summer and Winter Courts, though, I haven't from a quick look been able to track down any mention of at all other than modern fantasy fiction.  I've heard that there's a scholarly theory that the two rival &quot;kings of Annwvyn&quot; in the story of *Pwyll Lord of Dyfed* in the *Mabinogion* were meant to represent winter and summer (it's mentioned in the introduction to my copy), but that's only a theory and is not in any way spelt out in the story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any reference to Summer and Winter Courts in any old folklore?  If not, who started it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28861" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10394" RevisionGUID="9d354b06-a574-4706-8b26-3f1d32b4df4d" CreationDate="2022-05-08T01:30:28.303" UserId="9214" Text="Is there any folklore reference to fairies being divided into Summer and Winter Courts?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28862" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10394" RevisionGUID="9d354b06-a574-4706-8b26-3f1d32b4df4d" CreationDate="2022-05-08T01:30:28.303" UserId="9214" Text="|folklore|celtic|fairies|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28863" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10395" RevisionGUID="2faabb29-91b1-426f-a7d3-b4dc5c5c0725" CreationDate="2022-05-08T02:13:51.160" UserId="9214" Text="I'm not sure about *black* dogs off-hand, but Welsh folklore has the Cŵn Annwn or &quot;fairy hounds&quot; which are *white* dogs with red ears and eyes, and have very similar legends other than that, of being omens of death or taking the dead to the afterlife.  Annwn, the &quot;otherworld&quot;, is the home of fairies and the dead in Celtic mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Cŵn Annwn appear in *Pwyll Lord of Dyfed*, one of the stories in the *Mabinogion* - the earliest known copy of this is from the 1300s, but it's thought to be much older even than that.  That story doesn't mention any connection with the dead, though, apart from the mere fact that it mentions Annwn (although it spells it &quot;Annwvyn&quot; for some reason).  Their only role in the story is that Pwyll encounters a pack of them while out hunting, and steals a stag which they've killed.  Their master turns out to be Arawn, the king of part of Annwvyn, who sets Pwyll a task to make amends for stealing the stag.  I don't know whether the association with death was already around then, or, if not, when it started.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C5%B5n_Annwn" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28865" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10396" RevisionGUID="3e6dfd46-cbad-4890-af32-610ae72ebab9" CreationDate="2022-05-08T02:42:41.483" UserId="9214" Text="The mention of werewolves reminded me of the Rougarou.  It's a Cajun descendant of the werewolf legend (*loup-garou* is French for werewolf), but rather different.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In one version of the legend (the Rougarou legend is *very* variable), the Rougarou will lie in wait for people and fight them, hoping that *they* will end up drawing blood from *it*.  (In another version of the legend, they only have to see the Rougarou's eyes.)  If they shed any of the Rougarou's blood, the curse is passed on to them, and they must tell nobody about the encounter for a year and a day, or they will become a Rougarou themselves.  If they keep the secret for a year and a day, both they and the original Rougarou will be free of the curse.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28867" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10396" RevisionGUID="ddb0072d-1441-44e0-9fa8-08c359394dea" CreationDate="2022-05-08T03:11:50.163" UserId="9214" Comment="Edited a little and added links." Text="The mention of werewolves reminded me of the Rougarou.  It's a Cajun descendant of the werewolf legend (*loup-garou* is French for werewolf), but rather different.  (There's possibly some Wendigo and Sasquatch in there as well, and some things in the Rougarou legend are possibly not from any of those).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Rougarou legend is *very* variable, but in one version, the Rougarou will lie in wait for people and fight them, hoping that *they* will end up drawing blood from *it*.  (In another version of the legend, they only have to see the Rougarou's eyes.)  If they shed any of the Rougarou's blood, the curse is passed on to them and the Rougarou will be free.  They must tell nobody about the encounter for a year and a day, or they will become a Rougarou themselves.  If they keep the secret for a year and a day, the curse is over.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further information at&#xD;&#xA;https://peachtown.org/legendary-monsters-of-louisiana-rougarou/&#xD;&#xA;https://exemplore.com/cryptids/The-Rougarou-Louisianas-Cajun-Werewolf&#xD;&#xA;https://www.strangeology.com/post/cryptid-casefile-the-rougarou ." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28869" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10397" RevisionGUID="07d402c8-c55d-4447-b52b-c034b363c712" CreationDate="2022-05-09T01:01:58.133" UserId="6920" Text="[The Laidly Worm of Spindleston Heugh][1] was a dragon once a human.  Her brother rescued her by kissing her three times.  Likewise in [Kemp Owen][2] the king's son rescues a lady turned into a dragon by kissing her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [Frog Prince][3] tales, however, despite pop culture, he's usually restored by violence:  chopping his head off or throwing him against the wall.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/English_Fairy_Tales/The_Laidly_Worm_of_Spindleston_Heugh&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Child%27s_Ballads/34&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://sites.pitt.edu/~dash/frog.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28871" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10398" RevisionGUID="336593a4-c69a-4300-b3f3-f0eaa2052143" CreationDate="2022-05-09T15:05:56.890" UserId="9219" Text="I'd be interested to know about the mentions of portals in mythologies. By portals, I mean accesses/gates towards other locations, worlds, dimensions. I've found this notion several times but in my knowledge few &quot;portals&quot; per se have been given a name.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you for your help." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28873" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10398" RevisionGUID="336593a4-c69a-4300-b3f3-f0eaa2052143" CreationDate="2022-05-09T15:05:56.890" UserId="9219" Text="What portals are there in mythologies?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28874" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10398" RevisionGUID="336593a4-c69a-4300-b3f3-f0eaa2052143" CreationDate="2022-05-09T15:05:56.890" UserId="9219" Text="|greek|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28875" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10399" RevisionGUID="655f98ae-09dc-4324-867d-e8e6f5454e2f" CreationDate="2022-05-09T22:28:26.053" UserId="9220" Text="I can’t find anything on the origin of Jotunheim. If it was linked, like Muspellheim, to Nilfheim in any way… and I’m not sure how did Ymir arrived in it… I guess it could be unknown like many other details of the Norse mythology, but at least I can ask a question…" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28877" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10399" RevisionGUID="655f98ae-09dc-4324-867d-e8e6f5454e2f" CreationDate="2022-05-09T22:28:26.053" UserId="9220" Text="how/when Jotunheim was created precisely?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28878" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10399" RevisionGUID="655f98ae-09dc-4324-867d-e8e6f5454e2f" CreationDate="2022-05-09T22:28:26.053" UserId="9220" Text="|norse|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28879" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10400" RevisionGUID="3b280d7e-ed23-42b1-a074-1d1ec27dca69" CreationDate="2022-05-10T05:58:54.680" UserId="9049" Text="Based on [the creation myth as described on wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_cosmology) I would infer that Jotunheim was created when the gods Odin, Vili, and Vé created the Earth from Ymir's body, and used Ymir's brow to separate Midgard from the outlying lands (which would be Jotunheim).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ymir had come into being in Ginunngagap from the interaction between the ice of Niflheim and the fire from Muspell." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28881" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10400" RevisionGUID="f763f783-655c-472f-8abe-5540f97a70dd" CreationDate="2022-05-10T06:39:24.497" UserId="9049" Comment="added 108 characters in body" Text="Based on [the creation myth as described on wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_cosmology) I would infer that Jotunheim was created when the gods Odin, Vili, and Vé created the Earth from Ymir's body, and used Ymir's eyelashes* to separate Midgard from the outlying lands (which would be Jotunheim).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ymir had come into being in Ginunngagap from the interaction between the ice of Niflheim and the fire from Muspelheim.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;\* Or eyebrows according to [another source](https://mythologysource.com/norse-creation-myth/)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28882" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10401" RevisionGUID="f7a47b84-591e-4b26-ad14-a9e5c6fd7751" CreationDate="2022-05-10T17:48:54.097" UserId="9224" Text="They are commomnly known in my region as Sidehill Grantlers. Most people are unaware there are right and lefthand versions and if the two meet, they stand there until they starve." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28884" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10402" RevisionGUID="0fa509e2-1d13-48cc-abaf-ada41c72b971" CreationDate="2022-05-11T11:54:18.300" UserId="9225" Text="I think it is explicitly spelt out in Pwyll Lord of Dyfed if you speak welsh. Arawn's rivals name is Hafgan. Haf is welsh for summer. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28886" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10403" RevisionGUID="10263832-7f32-42ba-b300-e3a54b6358bd" CreationDate="2022-05-12T00:38:39.280" UserDisplayName="user9228" Text="A example can be seen in the poem Goblin Market, where goblins are the bankers and have pointed noses, long fingers and greed. In the early 20th century, these characteristics appeared in antisemitic caricatures and they became synonimous with antisemitism in general." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28888" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1648" RevisionGUID="764ecaf5-faf0-41b2-9822-4711611c931b" CreationDate="2022-05-12T10:31:47.887" UserId="53" Comment="We now have a [mermaids] tag" Text="|origins|mermaids|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28889" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10404" RevisionGUID="3a828dfe-cf3d-4987-ae9c-04af30593c4c" CreationDate="2022-05-13T04:35:56.203" UserId="9231" Text="In China there is a folk custom to give a red egg on someone's birthday.&#xD;&#xA;When and where did this practice originate from? Are there any myths related to the practice?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28891" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10404" RevisionGUID="3a828dfe-cf3d-4987-ae9c-04af30593c4c" CreationDate="2022-05-13T04:35:56.203" UserId="9231" Text="Origins of the Chinese Red Egg Tradition" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28892" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10404" RevisionGUID="3a828dfe-cf3d-4987-ae9c-04af30593c4c" CreationDate="2022-05-13T04:35:56.203" UserId="9231" Text="|chinese|rituals|traditions|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28894" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10405" RevisionGUID="76ab4684-5d4d-414e-9365-13d48e6aacea" CreationDate="2022-05-15T04:05:38.980" UserId="9238" Text="The preCeltic peoples of Ireland &amp; Scotland, especially those on the surrounding islands regarded *selkies* as simple people who preferred to live in the water.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Kunapippi Sisters who created the Dreamtime landscape of Australia emerged from the sea according to Aboriginal tales at least tens of thousand years old.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Shades of Elaine Morgan's *opus*, the ***Aquatic Ape***! " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28896" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10406" RevisionGUID="a5c2bfc4-5815-427a-b42c-b7fbe99a9a95" CreationDate="2022-05-15T13:57:38.147" UserId="9238" Text="There is also the tale of Clytemnestra (sister of Helen of Sparta/Troy), and her adulterous lover Aegisthus by Orestes with the help of his sister Electra." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28903" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10408" RevisionGUID="b0762f69-84f5-4b12-824e-f1a9b4e4b50b" CreationDate="2022-05-15T14:40:14.060" UserId="9240" Text="I'm writing a small project based around fantasy-dragons and wanted to do some research on dragons, but the problem is that there is so many varieties of dragons in mythology... The main problem is their roles start differing greatly throughout human history.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How did the very idea of a dragon originate with humanity, and why is a fantasy dragon often associated with fire-breathing, of all things? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28905" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10408" RevisionGUID="b0762f69-84f5-4b12-824e-f1a9b4e4b50b" CreationDate="2022-05-15T14:40:14.060" UserId="9240" Text="Where did the origin of dragons come from?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28906" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10408" RevisionGUID="b0762f69-84f5-4b12-824e-f1a9b4e4b50b" CreationDate="2022-05-15T14:40:14.060" UserId="9240" Text="|dragons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28908" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6480" RevisionGUID="1a7b3928-520a-4b03-8017-dcbc58e2929c" CreationDate="2022-05-15T21:39:59.953" UserId="3307" Comment="added 312 characters in body" Text="&lt;sup&gt;This is a follow-up question to: &quot;[Why did druidesses vow perpetual virginity?][1]&quot;&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What was the Aztec religion's view of virginity? Did they, like the Romans with their vestal virgins, view virginity as a sort of stored-up power upon which their civilization depended? Or did they think the survival of their civilization depended primarily upon human sacrifice?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The 1531 apparition of [Our Lady of Guadalupe][2], the Virgin Mother of God, ushered in the end of human sacrificing for the Aztecs and the baptism of 9 million within a span of 3 years. Did the Aztecs begin honoring virginity after 1531?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/5005/3307&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://isidore.co/calibre/#panel=book_details&amp;book_id=7518" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28909" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10409" RevisionGUID="6c9bb9a3-1d09-4272-9524-648c55465893" CreationDate="2022-05-16T09:31:09.613" UserId="9238" Text="I always saw Nausicaa as a misunderstood fragment from a much earlier tradition.&#xD;&#xA;Her Mother/father (Queen Arete &amp; King Alcinous of Phaeacia) were clearly co-equals in an highly advanced culture(***they knew not war nor the bow and trusted to their swift ships which obeyed their voice***) as was King Aeolus in his steel walled floating city state.  &#xD;&#xA;This presupposes that the Iliad/Odyssey was mangled memory from millennia earlier." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28911" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3194" RevisionGUID="88841ee9-5b01-4da2-b908-410381f42c73" CreationDate="2022-05-16T22:06:15.597" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="28913" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10410" RevisionGUID="9544e3de-c77c-405d-b096-920e7aac532d" CreationDate="2022-05-18T09:38:49.187" UserId="9231" Text="Dragons feature in mythology in cultures all around the world.&#xD;&#xA;For western style fantasy like Lord of the Rings the root would lie in the Proto-Indo-European serpent slaying myth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some examples would be Jormungandr, Typhon and Vritra.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In these myths the dragon represents chaos and a great obstacle &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Fire breathing is not a usual feature but Typhon has the ability to breathe fire." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28919" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10412" RevisionGUID="6bc79f35-1065-4623-b8d3-1c2651f95973" CreationDate="2022-05-20T21:12:39.943" UserId="9246" Text="The Baule people of the Ivory Coast worshipped the monkey god named Ghekre (aka Gbekre), who is a god of judgment (of the souls of the dead I believe). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also the Yoruba monkey god, Ellegba (aka Ellegua or Eshu), who stands at the crossroads as an intermediary between the Orisha and humans. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also Baba (aka Babi) of ancient Egypt (or Khemet), who is a god of virility, usually depicted with an erect phallus, and is said to be essential for male virility in the afterlife. He also is a punisher of those judged as wicked in the afterlife (by devouring them). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Generally, because monkeys display relatively greater intelligence than other animals, various African communities made them into symbols of wisdom, judgment, &amp; discernment. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The website DukeZhou linked to is a great resource. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28921" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10413" RevisionGUID="c662cb39-99a3-44b9-8419-8e2b69106151" CreationDate="2022-05-20T22:47:58.523" UserId="7106" Text="There are some sci-fi themes that can be sometimes scratched from some mythological tales like time travel in Mahabharata or Irish mythology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any mention of parallel universes (multiverse) in any of mythology or ancient legend? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not some hidden worlds but more like planes where there is a version of your reality were everything could have been different depending on some choice.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28923" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10413" RevisionGUID="c662cb39-99a3-44b9-8419-8e2b69106151" CreationDate="2022-05-20T22:47:58.523" UserId="7106" Text="Mythological basis for parallel universes?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28924" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10413" RevisionGUID="c662cb39-99a3-44b9-8419-8e2b69106151" CreationDate="2022-05-20T22:47:58.523" UserId="7106" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28926" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10394" RevisionGUID="1087599a-0d09-418c-8379-1b3427f0c4c1" CreationDate="2022-05-21T16:34:41.860" UserId="9214" Comment="Removed the &quot;If not, who started it?&quot;, as that's a matter for Science Fiction and Fantasy Stack Exchange (who have already come up with some interesting answers)." Text="Modern fiction about fairies often describes them as being divided into Seelie and Unseelie Courts or Summer and Winter Courts, sometimes Spring, Summer, Autumn and Winter Courts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A lot of people seem to believe that this is an established part of fairy legend - when I'm talking to fans of Gothic &quot;real faeries&quot; (as opposed to the child-friendly Enid Blyton kind) they often mention this.  But I'm not sure that it actually is any older/more authentic than those things.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia says that the idea of Seelie and Unseelie Courts does occasionally appear in Scottish folktales, and that they may have got the idea from Norse mythology, which does, at least sometimes, divide its &quot;elves&quot; (&quot;*alfar*&quot;) into &quot;light elves&quot; and &quot;dark elves&quot;. &#xD;&#xA; &quot;The Seelie Court&quot; is mentioned in the Scottish ballad *Allison Gross*, and according to https://britishfairies.wordpress.com/2021/01/24/the-seelie-and-unseelie-courts/ the first record of that ballad is from 1783 and it may be older still.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Summer and Winter Courts, though, I haven't from a quick look been able to track down any mention of at all other than modern fantasy fiction.  I've heard that there's a scholarly theory that the two rival &quot;kings of Annwvyn&quot; in the story of *Pwyll Lord of Dyfed* in the *Mabinogion* were meant to represent winter and summer (it's mentioned in the introduction to my copy), but that's only a theory and is not in any way spelt out in the story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any reference to Summer and Winter Courts in any old folklore?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28932" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10415" RevisionGUID="451532c0-9f51-434b-8bae-968692314f1a" CreationDate="2022-05-24T23:31:09.560" UserId="9255" Text="A creature / being that serves as a form of &quot;negotiator&quot; between good and evil. Its role is to keep order and balance between them.&#xD;&#xA;(whether it's by exterminating the more powerful side or by any other means)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't have a specific type of mythology or folklore in mind, just wondering if there are any at all." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28934" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10415" RevisionGUID="451532c0-9f51-434b-8bae-968692314f1a" CreationDate="2022-05-24T23:31:09.560" UserId="9255" Text="Is there a creature / being (in any mythology or folklore) that's role is to keep good and evil balanced at 50/50" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28935" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10415" RevisionGUID="451532c0-9f51-434b-8bae-968692314f1a" CreationDate="2022-05-24T23:31:09.560" UserId="9255" Text="|myth-identification|comparative|mythical-creatures|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28936" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10415" RevisionGUID="0e4ce0b6-c722-4228-96c0-649540670ea0" CreationDate="2022-05-25T08:03:29.333" UserId="6920" Comment="grammar and punctuation" Text="A creature / being that serves as a form of &quot;negotiator&quot; between good and evil. Its role is to keep order and balance between them&#xD;&#xA;(whether it's by exterminating the more powerful side or by any other means).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't have a specific type of mythology or folklore in mind, just wondering if there are any at all." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28937" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10415" RevisionGUID="0e4ce0b6-c722-4228-96c0-649540670ea0" CreationDate="2022-05-25T08:03:29.333" UserId="6920" Comment="grammar and punctuation" Text="Is there a creature / being (in any mythology or folklore) with the role of keeping good and evil balanced at 50/50?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28938" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="10415" RevisionGUID="0e4ce0b6-c722-4228-96c0-649540670ea0" CreationDate="2022-05-25T08:03:29.333" Comment="Proposed by 6920 approved by 398, 108 edit id of 1888" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28939" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10415" RevisionGUID="a59ef01d-4f5c-404d-bd29-42afef61b11f" CreationDate="2022-05-25T08:04:57.937" UserId="108" Comment="added 34 characters in body; edited title" Text="Is there any creature or being in either mythology or folklore that serves as a form of &quot;negotiator&quot; between good and evil, with the role of keep order and balance between them&#xD;&#xA;(whether it's by exterminating the more powerful side or by any other means)?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't have a specific type of mythology or folklore in mind, just wondering if there are any at all." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28940" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10415" RevisionGUID="a59ef01d-4f5c-404d-bd29-42afef61b11f" CreationDate="2022-05-25T08:04:57.937" UserId="108" Comment="added 34 characters in body; edited title" Text="Is there any creature or being with the role of keeping good and evil balanced?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28941" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10413" RevisionGUID="3e3c5e9f-d249-4b4d-bb09-5fdc3689b712" CreationDate="2022-05-25T08:07:53.823" UserId="108" Comment="edited title" Text="Are there parallel universes in any mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28942" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10416" RevisionGUID="cdcc57bb-adf8-475c-8156-191b2fb226a5" CreationDate="2022-05-26T03:14:00.123" UserId="2682" Text="Medusa is a monster in Greek mythology known for being associated in some way with the gods Poseidon and Athena. By Poseidon she conceived a pair of twin sons, namely the winged horse Pegasus and some other kind of creature called Chrysaor. Her relationship with Athena is somewhat complicated by the variety of its different versions. The most complicated aspect of her connection with this goddess, however, would appear to be a modern version thereof.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Internet is replete with the assertion that Medusa was originally a beautiful young lady who once served as priestess of Athena before she was violated by Poseidon in the temple of this virgin goddess. I searched via Google for the source of this priestess back-story of Medusa, having myself taken it for granted that it must go back to at least one ancient mythographer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Literally half of the top ten results from my search all simply and baldly state that Medusa was Athena's priestess but none citing its source for the statement. Two of them go as far as to say that she was the goddess's &quot;chief priestess.&quot; Part of what makes Medusa's story tragic, as it is understood in this modern version, is that Poseidon rapes her and she gets punished for it by Athena changing her from a beautiful damsel into a most deadly thing of terror. More's the pity if this is how Athena treats her own cultic attendant. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as I've been able to find there is no Greek source which has any explicit mention of a story in which Medusa suffers a sexual assault. The Roman poet Ovid seems, in Book 4 of his *Metamorphoses*, to be first person to bring up such an idea, in which he says that Neptune (the Roman Poseidon) accosted Medusa in the shrine of Minerva (the Roman Athena). For some reason Minerva deems this event punishable by the transformation of Medusa's lovely hair into a mass of snakes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;No explanation is contained in the *Metamorphoses*, however, of how Neptune and Medusa find themselves in Minerva's sacred precinct, and the text nowhere says that Medusa was a priestess. According to Theoi.com, &quot;Earlier Greek writers and artists... simply portray her [*Medusa*] as a monster born into a large family of monsters.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus, writing around the same time as Ovid, or perhaps a bit later (in the 1st or 2nd century AD), is the only Greek source that seems to hint at the idea that Medusa's origin was perhaps different from her simply having been born as a monster. He says in *Bibliotheka* 2.4.3 that the slaying of Medusa by Perseus was Athena's own vanity project because &quot;they say that the Gorgon was fain to match herself with the goddess even in beauty.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is isn't until centuries later, in the mediaeval Latin compilations called the Vatican Mythographers, that I find the next mention of the story of Neptune's violation of a beautiful Medusa in Minerva's shrine, and of Minerva thereafter making her into a snake-haired horror. Once again, though, the Vatican Mythographers simply reiterate the information found in Ovid and contain nothing about priesthood for Medusa.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;No other source that I've found, Greek or Roman, ancient or mediaeval, mentions anything further about any sort of rivalry or relationship between Medusa and Athena/Minerva prior to the goddess becoming Perseus' patroness in his mission to slay the Gorgon. **So where does this notion of Medusa being a priestess of Athena come from?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The closest to such a claim that I've come across is in the speculative anthropology presented by Robert Graves in his 1955 book *The Greek Myths*, on p. 17 of which he writes that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;A large part of Greek myth is politico-religious history...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Perseus... probably, represented the patriarchal Hellenes who invaded&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greece and Asia Minor early in the second millennium BC, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; challenged the power of the Triple-goddess... Jane Harrison has&#xD;&#xA;&gt; pointed out (*Prolegomena to the Study of Greek Religion*, chapter V)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that Medusa was once the goddess herself, hiding behind a prophylactic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gorgon mask: a hideous face intended to warn the profane against&#xD;&#xA;&gt; trespassing on her Mysteries. Perseus beheads Medusa: that is, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hellenes overran the goddess's chief shrines, stripped her priestesses&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of their Gorgon masks, and took possession of the sacred horses—an&#xD;&#xA;&gt; early representation of the goddess with a Gorgon's head and a mare's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; body has been found in Boeotia... [T]he Hellenes annulled the ancient&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Medusan calendar, and replaced it with another.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But even in all of that Graves does not actually call Medusa a priestess, rather he says that this female monster was originally simply a mask of the great goddess whom he theorises was dethroned by later patriarchal usurpation in Europe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Could this be the point from which, at present day, it has become such a basic assumption that Medusa's story starts off with her as Athena's priestess?***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Or Conflation of Other Priestess Stories, Maybe?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Strangely, there are two priestesses of Athena who actually do occur in Greek myth and whose stories are less popular than that of this modern Medusa-priestess but which perhaps got conflated into the &quot;neo-myth&quot; in question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;The first priestess incidentally is connected with Medusa as well, her own name being Iodama. According to Pausanias, she once enters Athena's precinct by night, where, for some unexplained reason, Athena appears to her wearing a tunic with Medusa's face on it. Iodama, upon seeing that, turns to stone.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;The other priestess, named Auge, is an Arcadian princess whose story appears in several versions. For some reason or another her father installs her as priestess in Athena's temple at Tegea, a position requiring her perpetual celibacy. When Heracles [Hercules] comes through the region, however, he impregnates her, she gives birth to his son Telephus, and mother and son thereafter go through a series of adventures both at home and abroad.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;In no version does Athena ever punish Auge, unless one were to interpret the adventures she goes through and the threats to her life from her father, and certain other circumstances, as the work of the goddess. Instead the land in which Auge serves as Athena's priestess becomes barren as a result of the pollution of her having borne a child in the sacred precinct in which she then goes on to harbour the boy. Nonetheless in every version of the story both mother and child survive against nigh-impossible odds.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If the answer to my Question lies in none of the above, perhaps I've missed something in that one sentence of Ovid's in which Neptune happens upon Medusa. Could it have been understood that the only reason for the location of this encounter must be that it was Medusa's workplace?  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28944" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10416" RevisionGUID="cdcc57bb-adf8-475c-8156-191b2fb226a5" CreationDate="2022-05-26T03:14:00.123" UserId="2682" Text="What is the source of the idea that Medusa was a priestess of Athena?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28945" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10416" RevisionGUID="cdcc57bb-adf8-475c-8156-191b2fb226a5" CreationDate="2022-05-26T03:14:00.123" UserId="2682" Text="|greek|roman|athena|medusa|poseidon|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28946" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6144" RevisionGUID="c30b0c58-5100-4d68-975a-beb8f6b8f8d1" CreationDate="2022-05-26T04:02:35.203" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="28949" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="5201" RevisionGUID="c785e119-35de-4327-b889-370d9163198a" CreationDate="2022-05-26T14:49:41.567" UserId="398" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;cmw&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="28950" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5202" RevisionGUID="96cd5cf9-5780-4a46-8f2e-4e23a2a4a71e" CreationDate="2022-05-27T07:49:25.837" UserId="6920" Comment="grammar and spelling" Text="Short answer: Obviously NOT...&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Long answer: Each time you see pseudoscience coming and pointing its dirty nose on any subject... Feel free to think smelly things are in the air. First, that a trilogy of gods would refer to Isis, Horus and Set. But anyway.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Egyptian names&#xD;&#xA;--------------&#xD;&#xA;The first thing to notice is the use of the GREEK names of the EGYPTIAN gods. Because Isis is Aset in Egyptian. Horus is Hor. Set is Set, but his hieroglyphic name came with lots of variations. So ranking something Egyptian when using Greek names is evil at best. But rest assured that the one writing those stupidities probably ignored the fact Isis and Horus are Greek names...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I just would like also to mention that Egyptian did not use a true alphabet but a specific system made of an alphabet, bilateral, trilateral and ideograms. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is Osiris (As-jr aka Asir, the old classical reading is ws-jr, aka Ousir):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; [![enter image description here][1]][1]&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;As a side note the eye is a bilateral read as jr (or ir if you use the American system, jr is the much international European system), not an ideaogram, just 2 sounds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Isis (reading As-t aka Aset): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&lt;BR&gt;&#xD;&#xA;the kind of demi circle is read 't', and is an unilateral. Not truly speaking a letter as in an alphabet, but quite close.&#xD;&#xA;Horus is written with a falcon. So how would Egyptians have used &quot;h&quot; for something they were writing as &quot;falcon&quot;?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Notice here I spared you the vast discussion on how Osiris was pronounced, for example.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Trinity&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;There are trinities in Egypt. The best known is Osiris (Asir in Egyptian), Isis (Aset), and Horus (Hor), respectively Husband, wife, and son. Which is telling you something here about Egyptian culture. They revered procreation. No virgin Mary. No immaculate conception. Fact is virginity was not well regarded. Generally speaking in the antique world, one has to face sexuality plain and blank (reading some 18xx translations of some Egyptian tales is totally priceless).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now while there are trinities (especially the god trio, quite revered in New Kingdom, but Hathor, Sekhmet and Bastet is another popular one, in Thebes it was Amun (husband), Mut (wife), Khonsu (son); in Memphis Ptah (husband), Sekhmet (wife), Nefertem (son)), Egyptians used 2 other conglomerates of gods, the Ogdoad (8 gods) and the Ennead (9 gods). Basically, while religion in Egypt is relatively stable, there are variations between north and south, and during time. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Set&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;Let's put it blankly: Set is not an admirable God. He factually killed Osiris. And something you have to know is that it was a secret, this murder, something taboo. Herodotus mentioned it and talked about a secret that could not be revealed. Later Plutarque wrote the whole story, Plutarque not being a great fan of foreign civilizations.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not only did Set murder and quarter Osiris, but he fought his nephew, Horus, and it was certainly not a gentle little fight. Set and Horus are enemies. Mortal ones.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Seb&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;As the opener made me noticed, the god Geb could be a solution. Let's examine. It is unlikely in modern literature to find Geb as Seb, but not in the old one. Champollion noted that in his &quot;Précis du système hiéroglyphique des anciens Égyptiens&quot;: Cb ou Cyb (copte): le dieu Sèb ou Scheb divinité egyptienne (The god Seb or Scheb, Egyptian divinity). (Notice in French &quot;ce&quot; and &quot;cy&quot; are easily read &quot;see&quot; or &quot;say&quot; hence Champollion's way of writing). And this is a trend we find in all the 1800 era.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is another example, by Peter Le-Page Renouf, from 1885: The Egyptian word seb, or rather sbu, had from the earliest time different meanings. The identification of Seb with the earth is recognized  in the Ritual of the Pyramids. But the word is also the name of a goose on pictures on the same period.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is his hieroglyphics name &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][3]][3] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;which is read Gb-b ( the repetition of the b is to help the reading of the bilateral, it should not be pronounced)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now let's take a look at Geb. Geb is an Earth god, member of the Ennead.  His consort is Nut, the sky goddess, and their usual children include Isis, Osiris, Set, and Nephtis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In certain traditions, he is the father of Horus the Elder (Haroeris), which also indicates that Isis is Horus's sister, and Horus's mother is Nut. In that case Horus form a triad with the Goddess Tasenetnofret (his wife) and Panebtawi (their son). In the pyramid text Horus the Elder is the son of Ra. You can notice once again a general trend in Egyptian trinities: Father, mother, son...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So either Geb is Horus's direct father, and Isis is just Horus's sister, or Geb is Horus grandfather and Isis is Horus's mother and Geb's daughter. Either you twist the neck of Egyptian mythology or that does not work!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Nmfn4.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/m32DG.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/mlBGw.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28951" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5202" RevisionGUID="96cd5cf9-5780-4a46-8f2e-4e23a2a4a71e" CreationDate="2022-05-27T07:49:25.837" Comment="Proposed by 6920 approved by 53 edit id of 1889" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28953" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="10379" RevisionGUID="50bcc64f-7870-498d-979f-adf8c0bd9889" CreationDate="2022-05-27T14:06:40.740" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="28957" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="10378" RevisionGUID="9a128b15-0ae5-4a24-b089-bcb1765e58cd" CreationDate="2022-05-28T14:03:45.317" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="28958" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10419" RevisionGUID="4dad52b3-271e-4ea9-8867-7d8da18a9120" CreationDate="2022-06-02T05:12:41.040" UserId="9275" Text="How many Ancient Greek gods are there?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My name is Heather and I am wondering how many Ancient Greek gods are there. I am studying for school, and only know Zeus, Poseidon, Ares, Hermes, Dionysus, Hades, Aphrodite, Hera, Demeter and Athena. Thank you!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28960" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10419" RevisionGUID="4dad52b3-271e-4ea9-8867-7d8da18a9120" CreationDate="2022-06-02T05:12:41.040" UserId="9275" Text="I am studying Greek gods" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28961" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10419" RevisionGUID="4dad52b3-271e-4ea9-8867-7d8da18a9120" CreationDate="2022-06-02T05:12:41.040" UserId="9275" Text="|greek|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28968" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10421" RevisionGUID="d983ee4e-7a02-4722-ade5-650684019e52" CreationDate="2022-06-04T22:53:35.860" UserId="6739" Text="The start of the modern dragon, begins with the ancient Greek term Drakōntas (δράκοντος), which means &quot;the watchers.&quot; These creatures are enormous snake-like serpents, without limbs or wings, usually tasked with guarding something of value." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28971" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10422" RevisionGUID="d80f8eb8-fc4b-4227-9daf-e5ca008bda0c" CreationDate="2022-06-05T15:14:12.737" UserId="9280" Text="The origin of dragons is ancient man's explanation for monstrous creatures preserved in rock.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Today we call those preserved bones &quot;fossils&quot; but ancient man was... standing upon the shoulders of shorter giants than scientists of today stand upon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Related:  clearly fish creatures preserved in the same rocks... thousands of feet above sea level. Literal experience, not just stories beginning when a child from mom and dad, with sudden, unexplained, massive ice dam breaking floods. Not hard to see how a &quot;biblical flood&quot; mythos developed around the world. In the northern hemisphere anyway. And I've not heard of any in the southern hemisphere, even though that seems like it ought to be included in the phrase one hears of &quot;flood myths are everywhere in the world so there has to be something to them...&quot; No glacial sheets in any of the southern hemisphere except for some reaching Argentina, and most of those before the extent of the Americas was reached by man at least 30,000 years ago.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Various monstrosities, such as the Greek Titans and Cyclopes surely harken from similar, then modern, reconstructions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;People come up with explanations, even when they have no connection whatsoever with what we today know (and &quot;know&quot;... nice thing about science is that as new evidence and explanations better our knowledge, it slowly changes to reflect them... where myths do not much do so).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interesting though, and clearly diagnostic of cultures in may ways, the main and the minor differences that have taken hold and developed. The &quot;Drakōntas (δράκοντος&quot; brought up by `Walter` for instance. What RPG scenario, to pick a living use of dragon mythos, has dragons **guarding** something of value versus **hording** something of value normally stolen from many with those many usually becoming &quot;the few&quot; in the process? Not at all duty-bound creatures and definitely not the helpful sort as mentioned in the other question that is mentioned by `cmw` in the comments.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Personally, I find it most fascinating that dragons, which must hark back a LONG way, are usually the helpful creature type in Asian mythos, but to all, not just rulers, while we often regard Asian cultures as repressing the individuality of individuals in furtherance of maintaining orderly society so that their very large, historically, populations do not devolve into murderous mobs from the constant angering of each other due to casual self-centered behavior, where that recent (last some thousands of years) society might be thought to have generated dragons who felt a duty to rulers and to have helped the rulers, not people in general, in furtherance of said repression and thereby helping those populations survive themselves. To me, that is diagnostic of such massive populations being a fairly recent thing (&quot;relatively recent&quot; as a fair number of millennia would be covered), and that those much larger than elsewhere in the world supportable populations might not go back as far as most casually assume. That would make the cultural shift to repressing individuality a fairly recent thing as well, as important as the concept of trade expanding populations due not just to now getting a wider range of materials, and later probably, products, but mainly due to using and expanding populations on the back of the gains of comparative advantage. An innovation, over a time period not at all like the modern grind of innovation, but an innovation nonetheless as opposed to an innate characteristic of the people involved, further emphasizing our underlying similarity, and more.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Well, I, um, steer close to digressing...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Dragons are the explanation of dinosaurs and similar creatures preserved as fossils and come upon in many ways by ancient peoples who attempted to explain what clearly absolutely existed at some time. That the explanation was wrong is NOT the interesting part of the story.*" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28977" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10424" RevisionGUID="df9a69c1-c909-41e0-b093-10644dcc625d" CreationDate="2022-06-06T01:27:03.320" UserId="188" Text="Are there any myths / folklore saying that a specific type of flower grows where corpses lie?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not like [the Chinese red poppy story](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papaver_rhoeas#China) about specifically red poppies blooming from specifically 虞美人's death location, but something for where any corpse lies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Or am I just mixing up all the Greek stories about gods turning people into flowers and &quot;In Flanders Fields&quot;, among other stories, into some false general folklore?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28979" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10424" RevisionGUID="df9a69c1-c909-41e0-b093-10644dcc625d" CreationDate="2022-06-06T01:27:03.320" UserId="188" Text="Are there any myths / folklore saying that a specific type of flower grows where corpses lie?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28980" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10424" RevisionGUID="df9a69c1-c909-41e0-b093-10644dcc625d" CreationDate="2022-06-06T01:27:03.320" UserId="188" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28982" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10421" RevisionGUID="a87fd4eb-b059-43bd-9421-8f4b1cbabb08" CreationDate="2022-06-06T14:56:03.363" UserId="6739" Comment="added 76 characters in body" Text="The start of the modern dragon, begins with the ancient Greek term Drakōntas (δράκοντος), which means &quot;the watchers.&quot; These creatures are enormous snake-like serpents, without limbs or wings, usually tasked with guarding something of value. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/δράκων, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28983" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="10408" RevisionGUID="be048dc1-ba56-4cea-aae3-703d4ca0f33d" CreationDate="2022-06-07T07:36:12.723" UserId="53" Comment="101" Text="{&quot;OriginalQuestionIds&quot;:[7706],&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;cmw&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="28985" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10425" RevisionGUID="d37bb029-aff5-4996-a2bb-f4cb224d5c83" CreationDate="2022-06-07T14:34:09.537" UserId="9286" Text="CAPTA was the name of the cult that worshiped Minerva and is also on other Emperor coins so I don't think it was a captivity thing. YHWH is Jupiter which was JOVE in ancient the Roman pantheon. The Ancient Romans also kept the feast of Trumpets just like the Jewish people. In Ostia also there is a plaque that states The Torah was the law of Rome per the Emperor. The oldest Synagogues there are actually are in Italy and Sicily. Pompeii is basically Jewish complete with paintings of Solomon's wisdom, star of David motif and Kosher shops. Sodom and Gomorrah is even carved into the rock wall there. The Jewish people were from Italy I believe. No ancient maps show them in the Middle East only remade maps for teaching scripture and such. The evidence is overwhelming especially since Mount Etna is named in the  book of Psalm.   Psalm 68 when the almighty scattered kings in the land, it snowed on Zalmon. (Black Mountain) H6756 צלמון tsalmôn again, the silent  letter “t”. The Etna Summit in Italy also called the Salmon Mountain Summit&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28987" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2233" RevisionGUID="a32eb508-ee1e-49be-bf94-17dd402014fa" CreationDate="2022-06-09T03:11:42.083" UserId="812" Comment="updated link and added tags" Text="I keep getting references to this deity (they cite the work of Wilhelm Heinrich Roscher &quot;Detailed dictionary of Greek and Roman mythology&quot;) in some websites regarding it as the origin of the word Judaism so I was wondering whats the story of this god, a god over what was he, where did it come from, how was he worshipped, what did it do, etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the websites mentioning this deity: [The Word &quot;Jew&quot; and the Scriptures](https://web.archive.org/web/20161219224459/http://assemblyoftrueisrael.com/TruthPage/the_word_jew.html)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28988" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="2233" RevisionGUID="a32eb508-ee1e-49be-bf94-17dd402014fa" CreationDate="2022-06-09T03:11:42.083" UserId="812" Comment="updated link and added tags" Text="|greek|gods|judaism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="28990" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="10298" RevisionGUID="8e1b771d-c7b5-4378-a89f-dc69515091e6" CreationDate="2022-06-11T01:04:15.397" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="28993" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="10298" RevisionGUID="37772042-2da8-4b01-876f-a199c5af1981" CreationDate="2022-06-12T07:03:48.830" UserId="53" Comment="101" Text="{&quot;OriginalQuestionIds&quot;:[6088],&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;cmw&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="28997" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6480" RevisionGUID="2f7e0565-4566-49ed-a26d-f480128de2a9" CreationDate="2022-06-14T22:04:20.577" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="29002" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2723" RevisionGUID="58e2ebb5-a67e-48ba-8133-2669e741ce48" CreationDate="2022-06-15T10:01:10.117" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="29003" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10428" RevisionGUID="c9ec3b68-5cc8-4925-b766-3a958e5f2eb4" CreationDate="2022-06-16T08:36:39.000" UserId="9240" Text="Also, a singular cat having 9 lives is an oddly specific number; why not 10 or 12 lives instead? Is this idea more common in European or Asian folklore? Do other animals (dogs, birds, etc) share this attribute of a mythological cat?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29005" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10428" RevisionGUID="c9ec3b68-5cc8-4925-b766-3a958e5f2eb4" CreationDate="2022-06-16T08:36:39.000" UserId="9240" Text="Where did the idea of cats having 9 lives come from?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29006" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10428" RevisionGUID="c9ec3b68-5cc8-4925-b766-3a958e5f2eb4" CreationDate="2022-06-16T08:36:39.000" UserId="9240" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29039" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1872" RevisionGUID="310c5b0f-f9d2-436d-b0fb-6d99c1ce5f25" CreationDate="2022-06-17T12:14:17.683" UserId="6920" Comment="grammar and spelling" Text="I always thought it had to deal with the fact that kings were seen as deities, so if the king is half-god then that may be where the one third human comes in, but I say this without knowing Mesopotamian claims to royalty and deityship." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29040" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1872" RevisionGUID="310c5b0f-f9d2-436d-b0fb-6d99c1ce5f25" CreationDate="2022-06-17T12:14:17.683" Comment="Proposed by 6920 approved by -1 edit id of 1891" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29041" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1872" RevisionGUID="30e64cf7-b5a8-47a1-a4c1-8551c3f9e3fe" CreationDate="2022-06-17T12:14:17.683" UserId="2682" Comment="grammar and spelling" Text="I always thought it had to deal with the fact that kings were seen as deities, so if the king is half-god then that may be where the one third human comes in, but I say this without knowing Mesopotamian claims to royalty and divinity." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29043" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10435" RevisionGUID="6f2752d1-1a02-406e-8361-35db76ce8592" CreationDate="2022-06-17T18:53:14.010" UserId="9312" Text="for a project I'm working on, I need to divide deities of various pantheons into &quot;benevolent&quot; (deities who work for/strive for the betterment of humanity and the world) and &quot;malevolent&quot; (deities who work for/strive for the death and destruction of humanity and the world) camps. I'm at a loss and every attempt at researching this only gave me tv tropes or personal feelings over certain deities, neither of which were useful to me. Anyone out there got ideas? Or some direction to point me in?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29045" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10435" RevisionGUID="6f2752d1-1a02-406e-8361-35db76ce8592" CreationDate="2022-06-17T18:53:14.010" UserId="9312" Text="Benevolent/Malevolent Deities" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29046" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10435" RevisionGUID="6f2752d1-1a02-406e-8361-35db76ce8592" CreationDate="2022-06-17T18:53:14.010" UserId="9312" Text="|pantheon|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29047" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10436" RevisionGUID="b8f62cf6-509a-4810-bf5c-d61eb8355e6d" CreationDate="2022-06-18T00:12:00.380" UserId="9314" Text="    It is mentioned in the Bible in the book of Daniel, Chapter 11 in verse 38, that the man who is called the little horn (who is to become the &quot;antichrist&quot; as Christians call him) will:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Daniel 11:38 (New International Version (NIV)): &#xD;&#xA;&quot;Instead of them, he will honor a god of fortresses; a god unknown to his ancestors he will honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and costly gifts.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The word translated &quot;fortress&quot; according to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance (SEC) means:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/nas/maowz.html][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Stong's #4581):&#xD;&#xA;Definition:&#xD;&#xA;place or means of safety, protection, refuge, stronghold&#xD;&#xA;place of safety, fastness, harbour, stronghold&#xD;&#xA;refuge (of God) (fig.)&#xD;&#xA;human protection (fig.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the next verse the same word (Strong's #4581) is used:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Daniel 11:39 (New International Version (NIV)): &#xD;&#xA;&quot;He will attack the mightiest fortresses with the help of a foreign god and will greatly honor those who acknowledge him. He will make them rulers over many people and will distribute the land at a price.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Englishman's Hebrew Concordance of the Old Testament by George V. Wigram has for Strong's #4581  for Daniel 11:38 &quot;shall he honour the God of *forces:* (marg. *Mauzzim*; or, *munitions*)&quot; and for Daniel 11:39 &quot;in the *most strong* holds (marg. fortresses of *munitions*)&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While that word may mean a fortified place, an acquaintance of mine who has, for decades, been self-taught in the Bible has stated that military power is ostensibly represented by the term fortresses, or forts in the modern vernacular and also that another, more modern meaning and intent of this metaphor &quot;fort&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;...can also refer to vaults where massive amounts of precious metals, such as gold and silver, precious stones or jewels, and other valuables, including property deeds, are often stored in banks, the largest of which in the world is itself called a fort (Fort Knox).&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've also read that temples can be included as places that stored treasure in ancient times (for example, in ancient Rome and ancient Greek), if that helps. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm curious what god or gods of all the mythologies matches up the most with being a God of Fortresses. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/nas/maowz.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29049" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10436" RevisionGUID="b8f62cf6-509a-4810-bf5c-d61eb8355e6d" CreationDate="2022-06-18T00:12:00.380" UserId="9314" Text="What God or Gods matches up the most with being the &quot;God of Fortresses&quot; mentioned in the Bible in Daniel 11:38?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29050" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10436" RevisionGUID="b8f62cf6-509a-4810-bf5c-d61eb8355e6d" CreationDate="2022-06-18T00:12:00.380" UserId="9314" Text="|bible|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29051" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10436" RevisionGUID="fbc97561-ce56-4900-aee5-d62f999866c1" CreationDate="2022-06-18T00:14:24.640" UserId="9314" Comment="added 2 characters in body" Text="    It is mentioned in the Bible in the book of Daniel, Chapter 11 in verse 38, that the man who is called the little horn (who is to become the &quot;antichrist&quot; as Christians call him) will:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Daniel 11:38 (New International Version (NIV)): &#xD;&#xA;&quot;Instead of them, he will honor a god of fortresses; a god unknown to his ancestors he will honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and costly gifts.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The word translated &quot;fortresses&quot; according to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance (SEC) means:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/nas/maowz.html][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Stong's #4581):&#xD;&#xA;Definition:&#xD;&#xA;place or means of safety, protection, refuge, stronghold&#xD;&#xA;place of safety, fastness, harbour, stronghold&#xD;&#xA;refuge (of God) (fig.)&#xD;&#xA;human protection (fig.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the next verse the same word (Strong's #4581) is used:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Daniel 11:39 (New International Version (NIV)): &#xD;&#xA;&quot;He will attack the mightiest fortresses with the help of a foreign god and will greatly honor those who acknowledge him. He will make them rulers over many people and will distribute the land at a price.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Englishman's Hebrew Concordance of the Old Testament by George V. Wigram has for Strong's #4581  for Daniel 11:38 &quot;shall he honour the God of *forces:* (marg. *Mauzzim*; or, *munitions*)&quot; and for Daniel 11:39 &quot;in the *most strong* holds (marg. fortresses of *munitions*)&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While that word may mean a fortified place, an acquaintance of mine who has, for decades, been self-taught in the Bible has stated that military power is ostensibly represented by the term fortresses, or forts in the modern vernacular and also that another, more modern meaning and intent of this metaphor &quot;fort&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;...can also refer to vaults where massive amounts of precious metals, such as gold and silver, precious stones or jewels, and other valuables, including property deeds, are often stored in banks, the largest of which in the world is itself called a fort (Fort Knox).&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've also read that temples can be included as places that stored treasure in ancient times (for example, in ancient Rome and ancient Greek), if that helps. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm curious what god or gods of all the mythologies matches up the most with being a God of Fortresses. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/nas/maowz.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29061" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="1835" RevisionGUID="ccb7de36-866a-4e1d-9312-e33c4081a037" CreationDate="2022-06-18T22:34:11.460" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="29067" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10435" RevisionGUID="47c95fa3-ab8c-4daa-9789-b0dc099f0e8a" CreationDate="2022-06-19T02:03:45.347" UserId="7095" Comment="Capitalized words." Text="For a project I'm working on, I need to divide deities of various pantheons into &quot;benevolent&quot; (deities who work for/strive for the betterment of humanity and the world) and &quot;malevolent&quot; (deities who work for/strive for the death and destruction of humanity and the world) camps. I'm at a loss and every attempt at researching this only gave me Tv Tropes or personal feelings over certain deities, neither of which were useful to me. Anyone out there got ideas? Or some direction to point me in?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29068" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="10435" RevisionGUID="47c95fa3-ab8c-4daa-9789-b0dc099f0e8a" CreationDate="2022-06-19T02:03:45.347" Comment="Proposed by 7095 approved by 398, 2682 edit id of 1892" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29095" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10440" RevisionGUID="1a00e894-74ee-4442-8f76-66e904945109" CreationDate="2022-06-20T19:33:54.167" UserId="9322" Text="The celts believe in Sluagh – the dead Irish sinners&#xD;&#xA;Though they're not so much “demons,” Sluagh are scary creatures that hunt down souls. According to Irish folklore, Sluagh is dead sinners that come back as malicious spirits.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29098" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10441" RevisionGUID="f6dd3c9e-d5ab-4bdf-89e2-76d71c997be7" CreationDate="2022-06-23T09:34:21.907" UserId="9327" Text="I've just started reading the Ulster cycle as well and a young girl named fedelm with a triple iris looks into the future for medb" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29100" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10442" RevisionGUID="b0d3dfb6-dd9d-48bc-b441-52a047400c39" CreationDate="2022-06-23T10:12:41.203" UserId="9328" Text="Which are considered the Greek god counterparts for day and night? For daybreak and nightfall? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From what I've gathered:&#xD;&#xA;* Day/Night: Hemera/Nyx&#xD;&#xA;* Daybreak/Nightfall: Eos/Astraeus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But then, where do the Hesperides fit in? They seem to represent the same thing (nightfall) as Astraeus. How are they different than Astraeus? Also, do the Hesperides have a daybreak counterpart the way Astraeus does?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29102" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10442" RevisionGUID="b0d3dfb6-dd9d-48bc-b441-52a047400c39" CreationDate="2022-06-23T10:12:41.203" UserId="9328" Text="Greek gods of day/night, daybreak/nightfall, and Hesperides" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29103" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10442" RevisionGUID="b0d3dfb6-dd9d-48bc-b441-52a047400c39" CreationDate="2022-06-23T10:12:41.203" UserId="9328" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29104" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10443" RevisionGUID="af17dd31-bfdf-4300-80bd-3ab130628ef7" CreationDate="2022-06-23T16:29:24.007" UserId="4022" Text="When talking about Ancient Greek (and Roman) beliefs, it's sometimes important to separate the _god of_ something from a _personification of_ that thing. For example, Hades and Persephone are deities who have power over death, while Thanatos is the personification of death itself; Apollo is a god with solar associations (depending on the time period), while Helios literally _is_ the sun.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hemera and Nyx are mainly personifications. Hemera is just the Ancient Greek word for &quot;day&quot;, and Nyx is the Ancient Greek word for &quot;night&quot;. These entities _were_ Day and Night, rather than gods who had power over day and night, and are sometimes better translated that way. There's not much mythology about them, and it's unclear if they were really worshipped.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Astraeus and Eos are borderline, sometimes treated as deities in their own right, and sometimes as personifications of nightfall and daybreak. (Homer, for example, refers to Eos in both ways.) There are indications that they were actually given offerings and such, at least in some time periods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Hesperides, finally, are mostly associated with their Garden. There was no ancient consensus about what their individual names were, or even how many they were; what's important is that they tend the garden with the magical golden apples, far off in the west. Their name means &quot;Children of Evening&quot; or &quot;Children of the West&quot; and some authors will link them to different aspects of the sunset, evening, or the west, but like most nymphs they're a literary device more than anything else. Some authors may have invented opposite nymphs to represent aspects of morning, but I'm not aware of any that ever became as famous as the Hesperides." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29106" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10444" RevisionGUID="8f88c3eb-38de-473d-8692-e2cd75cedd13" CreationDate="2022-06-23T17:52:55.537" UserId="4022" Text="## There is no number.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In a couple different ways, in fact!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First, it's important to note that there was no centralized authority on &quot;Greek&quot; religion. There wasn't even really a unified &quot;Greece&quot; in what's often called the Classical era. Each city-state (_polis_) had its own government, its own language, and often its own gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of my favorite sources on the diversity of Ancient Greek religion is Pausanias, who was writing several centuries later (in the Roman era) but tried to document as much as he could all sorts of different local legends and practices. He spends several volumes talking about local cults (as in systems of worship, not high-control groups) to gods, heroes, and specific aspects not seen anywhere else. For example, he discusses a cult to Medeia's children in Corinth, and the various legends behind it, and an unusual cult to &quot;Weapon-Bearing Aphrodite&quot; (_Aphrodite Hoplismene_) that probably shows Mesopotamian and/or Semitic influences, and veneration of Sisyphus who might have been a sort of local trickster god before he got syncretized into the broader mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;_As a side note, this is also why the myths contradict each other so often. In one polis, the changing of the seasons has to do with Persephone's return from the underworld. In another polis, Persephone is queen of the underworld in her own right, and the changing of the seasons is tied to her lover Adonis being shared with Aphrodite in the world above. When we talk about &quot;Greek mythology&quot; we're really talking about all sorts of different belief systems only vaguely unified by language and culture._&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, in one sense, there is no number because there are so many hundreds of local variations. Pausanias documents dozens and dozens of them, and yet this was probably only a small fraction of the diversity out there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In another sense, though, even the Ancient Greeks didn't think there was a specific number of gods out there! To quote Pausanias one more time, talking about an Athenian harbor (I.1.4):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; There is a temple of Athena-Sciras, and another one of Zeus a bit farther away, **and altars to the gods said to be unknown**, and heroes, and the children of Theseus and Phalerus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Especially in the Roman period, there were gods out there that nobody knew about, whose identities had been lost to time or perhaps never known in the first place. There have been sacred sites discovered in Rome with inscriptions saying, in very archaic Latin, &quot;whether this is dedicated to a god or a goddess, this altar was restored by Gaius Sextius Calvinus&quot;—even if you don't know which god it was originally meant for, it can't hurt to clean up the altars and treat them with respect!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, to sum up, there's no real number of Greek gods. There were hundreds of minor gods or variations or aspects of the primary gods venerated over the centuries, and even then, at least some worshippers believed there were other gods who were not (or could not be) known." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29111" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10446" RevisionGUID="186642db-8ce8-4c1a-bbc2-99b3597c32d7" CreationDate="2022-06-26T11:58:12.620" UserId="9339" Text="I am looking for information on myths where God commit suicide, specifically myths based from Central America, South America, and Africa; especially on the idea that earth was created through a God's suicide. &#xD;&#xA;Any help is much appreciated. Thank you!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29113" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10446" RevisionGUID="186642db-8ce8-4c1a-bbc2-99b3597c32d7" CreationDate="2022-06-26T11:58:12.620" UserId="9339" Text="Myths on suicide by God" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29114" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10446" RevisionGUID="186642db-8ce8-4c1a-bbc2-99b3597c32d7" CreationDate="2022-06-26T11:58:12.620" UserId="9339" Text="|native-american|creation|gods|africa|mesoamerica|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29115" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="10428" RevisionGUID="ddf1216b-b55e-4e38-b4ce-9cebb92af5f3" CreationDate="2022-06-27T10:37:33.137" UserId="57" Comment="101" Text="{&quot;OriginalQuestionIds&quot;:[1843],&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:57,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;yannis&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="29116" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10447" RevisionGUID="661f9d38-d956-46ec-ab93-cf95bed7e863" CreationDate="2022-06-27T16:13:32.790" UserId="7106" Text="Directly from Wikipedia on [Quetzalcoatl][1], the Aztec winged serpent and creator god:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the Codex Chimalpopoca, it is said Quetzalcoatl was coerced by Tezcatlipoca into becoming drunk on pulque, cavorting with his older sister, Quetzalpetlatl, a celibate priestess, and neglecting their religious duties. (Many academics conclude this passage implies incest.) The next morning, Quetzalcoatl, feeling shame and regret, had his servants build him a stone chest, adorn him in turquoise, and then, laying in the chest, **set himself on fire**. His ashes rose into the sky and then his heart followed, becoming the morning star.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source: [The Death of Quetzalcöätl][2], David K. Jordan&#xD;&#xA;Professor Emeritus of Anthropology, UCSD, website&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatl&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://pages.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/nahuatl/ReadingQuetzalcoatl.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29118" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10447" RevisionGUID="6fe37a81-31c6-4745-b822-82745f7272e8" CreationDate="2022-06-27T16:56:51.303" UserId="7106" Comment="added 310 characters in body" Text="Directly from Wikipedia on [Quetzalcoatl][1], the Aztec winged serpent and creator god:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the Codex Chimalpopoca, it is said Quetzalcoatl was coerced by Tezcatlipoca into becoming drunk on pulque, cavorting with his older sister, Quetzalpetlatl, a celibate priestess, and neglecting their religious duties. (Many academics conclude this passage implies incest.) The next morning, Quetzalcoatl, feeling shame and regret, had his servants build him a stone chest, adorn him in turquoise, and then, laying in the chest, **set himself on fire**. His ashes rose into the sky and then his heart followed, becoming the morning star.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source: [The Death of Quetzalcöätl][2], David K. Jordan&#xD;&#xA;Professor Emeritus of Anthropology, UCSD, website&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Mesoamerican mythology, there is also the legend of the [Fifth Sun][3], where two gods compete in order to decide who has to sacrifice himself in order to save humanity. [Nanahuatzin][4] ends up jumping into the bonfire first and becomes the new Sun.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatl&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://pages.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/nahuatl/ReadingQuetzalcoatl.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Suns&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanahuatzin" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29119" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10447" RevisionGUID="10e94fea-a77f-4852-a5e7-1841022018d2" CreationDate="2022-06-27T17:11:24.137" UserId="7106" Comment="added 310 characters in body" Text="Directly from Wikipedia on [Quetzalcoatl][1], the Aztec winged serpent and creator god:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the Codex Chimalpopoca, it is said Quetzalcoatl was coerced by Tezcatlipoca into becoming drunk on pulque, cavorting with his older sister, Quetzalpetlatl, a celibate priestess, and neglecting their religious duties. (Many academics conclude this passage implies incest.) The next morning, Quetzalcoatl, feeling shame and regret, had his servants build him a stone chest, adorn him in turquoise, and then, laying in the chest, **set himself on fire**. His ashes rose into the sky and then his heart followed, becoming the morning star.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Source: [The Death of Quetzalcöätl][2], David K. Jordan&#xD;&#xA;Professor Emeritus of Anthropology, UCSD, website&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Mesoamerican mythology, there is also the legend of the [Fifth Sun][3], where two gods compete in order to decide who has to sacrifice himself in order to save humanity. [Nanahuatzin][4] ends up jumping into the bonfire first and becomes the new Sun.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From Sub-Saharan Africa, I found the [creation myth][5] of Kuba people in Democratic Republic of the Congo. Mmombo the creator vomited the skies and part of the world, one of his sons, Nyonye Ngana, was supposed to finish the job but died after creating (vomiting) the ants.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatl&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://pages.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/nahuatl/ReadingQuetzalcoatl.html&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Suns&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanahuatzin&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mbombo" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29120" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10446" RevisionGUID="00ebfc87-f4d2-4cbd-80ae-1a9417d70f29" CreationDate="2022-06-28T20:54:12.727" UserId="7106" Comment="clearer title" Text="Myths on God committing suicide" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29121" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="10446" RevisionGUID="00ebfc87-f4d2-4cbd-80ae-1a9417d70f29" CreationDate="2022-06-28T20:54:12.727" Comment="Proposed by 7106 approved by 2682, 398 edit id of 1893" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29122" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10448" RevisionGUID="6595aa80-72e6-4377-aec4-e047a4918237" CreationDate="2022-06-29T16:28:46.710" UserId="9347" Text="Its the satanic sign of domination; The diamond. It literally express the beholder perceive the audience as slaves. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29125" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10449" RevisionGUID="a741294d-c057-4507-9afe-858815a1af01" CreationDate="2022-06-30T10:09:40.787" UserId="380" Text="You can't be reborn as a god, no.  Becoming a god is something that must be achieved while alive - after which, you no longer reincarnate, as you no longer die." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29127" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10450" RevisionGUID="de0e46ce-9349-462a-a619-0003952df7c2" CreationDate="2022-07-04T11:51:32.457" UserId="9346" Text="In Frédéric Mistral's epic poem &quot;Lou Pouèmo dóu Rose&quot; (The Poem of the Rhône) from 1897, in Song XI, Verse XCVI is mentioned a creature. Here are the relevant lines in the original Provençal, in French, and in English (my own translation):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    I'an vist pamens uno grosso Tartugo,&#xD;&#xA;    I'an vist lou Lert, e d'autri bèsti orro...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    On y a vu pourtant une grosse tortue,&#xD;&#xA;    on y a vu le Lert, d'autres bêtes horribles...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    However, there we saw a big turtle,&#xD;&#xA;    there we saw the Lert, other horrible beasts...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In my copy there's a footnote associated with &quot;Lert&quot;, which reads:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;    Le Lert, grand reptile fantastique&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And from the context of the poem too, it seems it's some kind of dragon or dragon-like creature of local legend, but I can't find any mention of it outside of this poem.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does anyone know a source with more details on this legendary creature?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29129" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10450" RevisionGUID="de0e46ce-9349-462a-a619-0003952df7c2" CreationDate="2022-07-04T11:51:32.457" UserId="9346" Text="What is the &quot;Lert&quot; creature mentioned in Mistral's Poem of the Rhône?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29130" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10450" RevisionGUID="de0e46ce-9349-462a-a619-0003952df7c2" CreationDate="2022-07-04T11:51:32.457" UserId="9346" Text="|mythical-creatures|dragons|european-folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29133" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10452" RevisionGUID="02d78040-0f7e-4999-b0e5-896c0dfd7ddf" CreationDate="2022-07-05T14:50:09.827" UserId="9360" Text="I am by no means an expert or insider on mythology, and maybe I misuse or misunderstand Greek mythology. But there has always been a question that has been on my mind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why do the gods have such compartmentalized and specific powers or domains? Why is it logical that there is a goddess of agriculture and a different one of hunting? What process leads Artemis to become the goddess of hunting? Isn't Zeus clearly powerful enough to take on that role as well?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It makes more sense to me that there were a handful of deities with vaguely defined powers, and through your fervor to them, they granted you prosperity or knowledge. For example, you could worship Zeus and not Poseidon to seek protection on the high seas. The first would watch over you on your journey while the second could be indifferent or, in the case of being envious, manipulate nature and collide head-on with Zeus. It would be something similar to a human looking for an alliance system with a few supernatural beings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29135" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10452" RevisionGUID="02d78040-0f7e-4999-b0e5-896c0dfd7ddf" CreationDate="2022-07-05T14:50:09.827" UserId="9360" Text="Specificness of gods" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29136" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10452" RevisionGUID="02d78040-0f7e-4999-b0e5-896c0dfd7ddf" CreationDate="2022-07-05T14:50:09.827" UserId="9360" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29137" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10452" RevisionGUID="1c1dfb8d-ef2e-4532-beaf-2dea0cff0b80" CreationDate="2022-07-05T14:52:07.773" UserId="9360" Comment="added 28 characters in body" Text="I am by no means an expert or insider on mythology, and maybe I misuse or misunderstand Greek mythology. But there has always been a question that has been on my mind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why do the gods have such compartmentalized and specific powers or domains? Why is it logical that there is a goddess of agriculture and a different one of hunting? What process leads Artemis to become the goddess of hunting? Isn't Zeus clearly powerful enough to take on that role as well? Aren't the muses redundant?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It makes more sense to me that there were a handful of deities with vaguely defined powers, and through your fervor to them, they granted you prosperity or knowledge. For example, you could worship Zeus and not Poseidon to seek protection on the high seas. The first would watch over you on your journey while the second could be indifferent or, in the case of being envious, manipulate nature and collide head-on with Zeus. It would be something similar to a human looking for an alliance system with a few supernatural beings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29138" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="10452" RevisionGUID="f06f32a2-668e-4436-b7a1-da37365885f3" CreationDate="2022-07-05T14:53:42.553" UserId="9360" Comment="edited tags" Text="|greek|zeus|artemis|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29139" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10453" RevisionGUID="5f112e3c-b664-40e2-a06d-e0de4b0d2837" CreationDate="2022-07-05T15:48:57.123" UserId="398" Text="It's a myth that the gods had compartmentalized domains. You in fact find dozens of gods to pray to for any given thing. If you wanted protection against the seas, you'd actually pray to [Ino-Leucothea](https://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Leukothea.html), [Melicertes-Palaemon](https://www.theoi.com/Pontios/Palaimon.html), [Achilles](https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_Small_Greek_World/CKQXm8sNgNkC?hl=en&amp;gbpv=1&amp;dq=greek+maritime+cults&amp;pg=PA106&amp;printsec=frontcover), or even (and especially) [Aphrodite](https://neoskosmos.com/en/2011/09/04/dialogue/opinion/aphordite-sea-goddess-if-the-ancient-greeks/).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The gods do not have domains. They have powers, and you pray to a god for their powers to help you in whatever venture you have.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sure, some gods are more associated with activities, but again, these aren't compartmentalized in any way. Hermes is most commonly associated with travel, but if you wanted protection through *xenia*, you'd also make a sacrifice to Zeus. You certainly find inscriptions where multiple gods are addressed for some activity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And it's not even individual gods. Sometimes, it's individual aspects of gods. Robert Parker, whose study *On Greek Religion* (Cornell: 2011) is a great, updated summation of the topic, make as much clear:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It was common in oaths for a single god to be several times invoked under different epithets; oracles would very regularly advise cities to add a cult of a god under a new epithet to their existing set of cults of that god; and in a famous episode Xenophon, regular worshipper of Zeus Basileus, was told by a seer that his financial problems were caused by his neglect of Zeus Meilichios. Even if in one perspective Zeus Meilichios was simply one aspect of Zeus, in another he had to be treated as an independent figure. He was often portrayed differently too, as a gigantic snake.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These different &quot;aspects&quot; of a deity shows their branching specialties:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; To take an easy example, Aphrodite is not just the patroness of sexuality but also, as “Aphrodite of All the People,” a source of civic harmony, and, as “Aphrodite Fair Voyage,” a friend to sailors. As wife/cult-partner of Ares, she even has a certain relation, which is apparently not merely one of antithesis, with the world of war: in 480 BC, for instance, the women of Corinth are said to have prayed to the goddess to inspire in their menfolk “desire [n.b.] for battle against the barbarians.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Structuralists have looked for a &quot;unifying principle&quot; embedded in these activities. So praying to Aphrodite so that men &quot;desire for battle&quot; calls on her power over desire, which is clearer from her sexual powers. Even this is a bit too simplistic, and Parker finds it difficult to naturally see &quot;Why does Zeus, if his characteristic mode is sovereignty, watch over the household stores, in the form of a jar, as Zeus Ktesios?&quot; (p. 93). Explanations for these activities would be ad hoc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Parker doesn't give a real conclusion, but rather lets the gods just be gods: they have powers, they take up different domains, these domains are absolutely not specific to a single god, and the way they develop is sometimes a mystery and rarely a necessity. This is a more naturalistic explanation for the gods' powers: they have the powers because their worshippers attributed those powers to them." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29141" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7679" RevisionGUID="2298ad38-e762-4977-8e2b-58c7f4b87f87" CreationDate="2022-07-05T19:10:21.600" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar; &amp; amended some of the gist of the wording" Text="The Grim Reaper is well-known as a hooded figure who represents death. This personification is featured in all sorts of modern fiction as well. Where does this character originally come from? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29142" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="7679" RevisionGUID="2298ad38-e762-4977-8e2b-58c7f4b87f87" CreationDate="2022-07-05T19:10:21.600" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar; &amp; amended some of the gist of the wording" Text="What is the origin of the Grim Reaper?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29143" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10454" RevisionGUID="b0652cd4-f329-49de-8b7c-abf609bbf70b" CreationDate="2022-07-05T22:20:37.983" UserId="5806" Text="Hello Artemis19 and welcome to the forum. Hopefully someone can verify the validity or add to my answer, or even correct it! Till then though I have to tell you that you should take the following answer with a grain of salt, since it is my personal opinion. I am not an academic, I did my personal research, and I just state that so you will take it as an answer of a non-academic person on that subject.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In order to understand why gods are so specific, we should ask ourselves what a god is, or to be more precise, what a god **was** back then.&#xD;&#xA;Gods were representing specific concepts. &#xD;&#xA;For instance, the concept of the night was personified by Nyx. The weather changes as a concept was explained by the myth of Persephone. So gods were related to specific concepts. &#xD;&#xA;That of course does not mean that all concepts are related to only one deity. For instance the concept of Justice has to do with Themis (Θέμις) , Diki ( Δίκη ).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Metis ( Μήτις) is by herself a very specific concept and set of skills. Wisdom, trickery, hustling, engineering, problem solving skills in general.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So gods got what they got because of the deep human need to personify a concept, so they could ask for specific help or explain - give meaning to unexpected or unexplained phenomena.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29145" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10419" RevisionGUID="cb366a27-f67f-40c3-ae16-10741653ef93" CreationDate="2022-07-05T23:25:45.133" UserId="398" Comment="deleted 91 characters in body; edited title" Text="How many Ancient Greek gods are there? I am studying for school, and only know Zeus, Poseidon, Ares, Hermes, Dionysus, Hades, Aphrodite, Hera, Demeter and Athena." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29146" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10419" RevisionGUID="cb366a27-f67f-40c3-ae16-10741653ef93" CreationDate="2022-07-05T23:25:45.133" UserId="398" Comment="deleted 91 characters in body; edited title" Text="How many Ancient Greek gods are there?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29154" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10456" RevisionGUID="ffa68a00-54bd-4d58-80fc-619611f5f045" CreationDate="2022-07-10T16:11:45.330" UserId="6739" Text="What is the Greek term for lion's pelt? I've found that the Nemean lion was Neméos léōn  (Νεμέος λέων), so I'm trying to figure out what the ancient Greeks would have called the pelt from the Neméos léōn that Herakles wore. The other question regards Herakles club. There are two different myths about his club, one that he carved from a tree trunk that he uprooted before fighting Neméos léōn, and the other, a bronze club gifted from Hæphestos. What style of club did the ancient greeks use, and what was the greek word for club? I've come across several options, but there are enough choices that it is confusing without a knowledge of ancient Greek. Any help would be greatly appreciated" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29156" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10456" RevisionGUID="ffa68a00-54bd-4d58-80fc-619611f5f045" CreationDate="2022-07-10T16:11:45.330" UserId="6739" Text="2 Questions about Herakles weapons?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29157" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10456" RevisionGUID="ffa68a00-54bd-4d58-80fc-619611f5f045" CreationDate="2022-07-10T16:11:45.330" UserId="6739" Text="|greek|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29158" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10457" RevisionGUID="865cc0b3-962a-4132-bd7f-f8206104cd72" CreationDate="2022-07-10T22:59:18.467" UserId="398" Text="The Greeks generally didn't use clubs in war. Heracles' use of the club is an archaic feature, and marks him off as being somewhat wild. However, it's the wooden club that is heavily featured in representations, including ancient statues and vase scenes. Some statues show just a branch, which is all clubs really are.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greek word for &quot;skin&quot; is [δέρμα (derma)](https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dde%2Frma), and it's this word that Pindar uses, though some other authors use [dora (δορά)](https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=%CE%B4%CE%BF%CF%81%E1%BD%B0%CE%BD&amp;la=greek#lexicon) instead. The latter is more precisely what we mean by &quot;pelt,&quot; but both words are common in Greek literature." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29160" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10456" RevisionGUID="b18490dd-7718-4f26-bf22-e88907433125" CreationDate="2022-07-11T14:15:38.200" UserId="7095" Comment="Corrected grammar of title." Text="Two questions about Herakles' weapons" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29161" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="10456" RevisionGUID="b18490dd-7718-4f26-bf22-e88907433125" CreationDate="2022-07-11T14:15:38.200" Comment="Proposed by 7095 approved by 6739 edit id of 1894" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29162" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10456" RevisionGUID="604df200-ca45-4360-b2e5-321f52a47444" CreationDate="2022-07-11T15:14:47.280" UserId="6739" Comment="added 171 characters in body" Text="What is the Greek term for lion's pelt? I've found that the Nemean lion was Neméos léōn  (Νεμέος λέων), so I'm trying to figure out what the ancient Greeks would have called the pelt from the Neméos léōn that Herakles wore. I have found the term léōntos (λέοντος) a word for &quot;lion's skin for a cloak.&quot; So would Neméos léōntos  (Νεμέος λέοντος) be an accurate term for Herakles' lion skin cloak? The other question regards Herakles club. There are two different myths about his club, one that he carved from a tree trunk that he uprooted before fighting Neméos léōn, and the other, a bronze club gifted from Hæphestos. What style of club did the ancient greeks use, and what was the greek word for club? I've come across several options, but there are enough choices that it is confusing without a knowledge of ancient Greek. Any help would be greatly appreciated" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29163" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10457" RevisionGUID="ddbc4957-889b-4d12-80fa-91046251ec7e" CreationDate="2022-07-11T17:16:13.560" UserId="398" Comment="added 24 characters in body" Text="The Greeks generally didn't use clubs in war. Heracles' use of the club is an archaic feature, and marks him off as being somewhat wild. However, it's the wooden club that is heavily featured in representations, including ancient statues and vase scenes. Some statues show just a branch, which is all clubs really are.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greek word for &quot;skin&quot; is [δέρμα (derma)](https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dde%2Frma), and it's this word that Pindar uses for what Heracles wears, though some other authors use [dora (δορά)](https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=%CE%B4%CE%BF%CF%81%E1%BD%B0%CE%BD&amp;la=greek#lexicon) instead. The latter is more precisely what we mean by &quot;pelt,&quot; but both words are common in Greek literature." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29164" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="10456" RevisionGUID="16692705-d2e5-4dbc-a7f5-b592154b45b4" CreationDate="2022-07-13T21:26:08.580" UserId="53" Comment="104" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:7095,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Harel13&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="29165" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10456" RevisionGUID="a516ba6d-b725-4f86-b35d-6c37dd0e6e25" CreationDate="2022-07-15T05:21:39.610" UserId="6739" Comment="added 63 characters in body; edited title" Text="What is the Greek term for lion's pelt that Herakles wore? I've found that the Nemean lion was Neméos léōn  (Νεμέος λέων), so I'm trying to figure out what the ancient Greeks would have called the pelt from the Neméos léōn that Herakles wore. I have found the term khlainōma léōntos (χλαίνωμα λέοντος) a word for &quot;lion's skin for a cloak.&quot; So would khlainōma Neméos léōntos  (Νεμέος λέοντος) be an accurate term for Herakles' lion skin cloak? What would the Greek term be for Herakles club? There are two different myths about his club, one that he carved from a tree trunk that he uprooted before fighting Neméos léōn, and the other, a bronze club gifted from Hæphestos. What style of club did the ancient greeks use, and what was the greek word for club? I've come across several options, but there are enough choices that it is confusing without a knowledge of ancient Greek language. Any help would be greatly appreciated" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29166" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10456" RevisionGUID="a516ba6d-b725-4f86-b35d-6c37dd0e6e25" CreationDate="2022-07-15T05:21:39.610" UserId="6739" Comment="added 63 characters in body; edited title" Text="What are the ancient Greek names of Herakles' armaments?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29168" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="10456" RevisionGUID="a516ba6d-b725-4f86-b35d-6c37dd0e6e25" CreationDate="2022-07-15T05:21:39.610" UserId="6739" Comment="added 63 characters in body; edited title" Text="|greek|myth-identification|god-items|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29169" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10458" RevisionGUID="efe1376a-7686-4139-bac9-cf90bc33226f" CreationDate="2022-07-15T13:41:07.780" UserId="9379" Text="There is a common pattern in various mythologies - particularly in the Indo-European &quot;big family&quot; set - of gods overthrowing monsters and sometimes being overthrown in turn by a new generation of deities. Does this trope of divine succession have a name?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29171" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10458" RevisionGUID="efe1376a-7686-4139-bac9-cf90bc33226f" CreationDate="2022-07-15T13:41:07.780" UserId="9379" Text="Is there a name for the generational overthrow of gods/titans/giants?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29172" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10458" RevisionGUID="efe1376a-7686-4139-bac9-cf90bc33226f" CreationDate="2022-07-15T13:41:07.780" UserId="9379" Text="|comparative|creation|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29173" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10457" RevisionGUID="46483da4-bf8d-45ce-8aba-3e3f92072dc4" CreationDate="2022-07-15T14:01:14.773" UserId="398" Comment="added 308 characters in body" Text="The Greeks generally didn't use clubs in war. Heracles' use of the club is an archaic feature, and marks him off as being somewhat wild. However, it's the wooden club that is heavily featured in representations, including ancient statues and vase scenes. Some statues show just a branch, which is all clubs really are.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greek word for &quot;skin&quot; is [δέρμα (derma)](https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dde%2Frma), and it's this word that Pindar uses for what Heracles wears (so λέοντος δέρμα, &quot;lion skin&quot;) though some other authors use [dora (δορά)](https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=%CE%B4%CE%BF%CF%81%E1%BD%B0%CE%BD&amp;la=greek#lexicon) instead. The latter is more precisely what we mean by &quot;pelt&quot; (λέοντος δορά, &quot;lion pelt&quot;), but both words are common in Greek literature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You do also have the possibility of using χλαίνωμα λέοντος, but note that it's attested once in a late collection of poetry. It would probably be understood by an ancient Greek in the Classical era, but as it's so uncommon, it would sound weird." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29175" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10456" RevisionGUID="08c9848e-dc24-4c29-bf58-bd7cc9bd6128" CreationDate="2022-07-16T17:23:28.203" UserId="6739" Comment="deleted 313 characters in body; edited title" Text="What is the Greek term for lion's pelt that Herakles wore? I've found that the Nemean lion was Neméos léōn  (Νεμέος λέων), so I'm trying to figure out what the ancient Greeks would have called the pelt from the Neméos léōn that Herakles wore. I have found the term khlainōma léōntos (χλαίνωμα λέοντος) a word for &quot;lion's skin for a cloak.&quot; So would khlainōma Neméos léōntos  (Νεμέος λέοντος) be an accurate term for Herakles' lion skin cloak?  I've come across several options, but there are enough choices that it is confusing without a knowledge of ancient Greek language. Any help would be greatly appreciated" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29176" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10456" RevisionGUID="08c9848e-dc24-4c29-bf58-bd7cc9bd6128" CreationDate="2022-07-16T17:23:28.203" UserId="6739" Comment="deleted 313 characters in body; edited title" Text="What is the ancient Greek name of Herakles' lion skin cloak?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29178" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10457" RevisionGUID="43c8605e-e705-465a-98d6-554f9ee3c2d7" CreationDate="2022-07-16T18:28:17.680" UserId="398" Comment="deleted 322 characters in body" Text="The Greek word for &quot;skin&quot; is [δέρμα (derma)](https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dde%2Frma), and it's this word that Pindar uses for what Heracles wears (so λέοντος δέρμα, &quot;lion skin&quot;) though some other authors use [dora (δορά)](https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=%CE%B4%CE%BF%CF%81%E1%BD%B0%CE%BD&amp;la=greek#lexicon) instead. The latter is more precisely what we mean by &quot;pelt&quot; (λέοντος δορά, &quot;lion pelt&quot;), but both words are common in Greek literature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You do also have the possibility of using χλαίνωμα λέοντος, but note that it's attested once in a late collection of poetry. It would probably be understood by an ancient Greek in the Classical era, but as it's so uncommon, it would sound weird." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29179" PostHistoryTypeId="11" PostId="10456" RevisionGUID="817013e2-7805-41e1-9d07-117d4d37a9d0" CreationDate="2022-07-17T10:44:03.480" UserId="53" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:7095,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Harel13&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:6739,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Walter&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;cmw&quot;},{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="29180" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10459" RevisionGUID="d5856dc0-eec2-476a-8428-ff70345f2a29" CreationDate="2022-07-18T20:35:57.100" UserId="9383" Text="I have often wondered if the 'Lady of the Lake' was a relative or decendant of Telekhines: Telekhines invented the art of metal-working and were said to have crafted the scythe that Kronos used to castrate his father Ouranos. They later made a Magical Trident for Poseidon which the god used to level mountains into the sea and form the islands. Their malignant use of dark magic, particularly, their production of a mixture of River Styx water and sulfur—which killed plants and animals—angered Zeus, who cast them beneath the sea or into the very depths of Tartarus. Telekhines were sometimes described as having the head of a dog and fish-flippers for hands. They're also known as &quot;fish children&quot;." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29183" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10416" RevisionGUID="c7392831-e6b0-46cc-bb6c-0b2f9470ca1e" CreationDate="2022-07-24T23:16:10.973" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="Medusa is a monster in Greek mythology known for being associated in some way with the gods Poseidon and Athena. By Poseidon she conceived a pair of twin sons, namely the winged horse Pegasus and some other kind of creature called Chrysaor. Her relationship with Athena is somewhat complicated by the variety of its different versions. The most complicated aspect of her connection with this goddess, however, would appear to be a modern version thereof.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Internet is replete with the assertion that Medusa was originally a beautiful young lady who once served as priestess of Athena before she was violated by Poseidon in the temple of this virgin goddess. I searched via Google for the source of this priestess back-story of Medusa, having myself taken it for granted that it must go back to at least one ancient mythographer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Literally half of the top ten results from my search all simply and baldly state that Medusa was Athena's priestess but none citing its source for the statement. Two of them go as far as to say that she was the goddess's &quot;chief priestess.&quot; Part of what makes Medusa's story tragic, as it is understood in this modern version, is that Poseidon rapes her and she gets punished for it by Athena changing her from a beautiful damsel into a most deadly thing of terror. More's the pity if this is how Athena treats her own cultic attendant. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as I've been able to find there is no Greek source which has any explicit mention of a story in which Medusa suffers a sexual assault. The Roman poet Ovid seems, in Book 4 of his *Metamorphoses*, to be first person to bring up such an idea, in which he says that Neptune (the Roman Poseidon) accosted Medusa in the shrine of Minerva (the Roman Athena). For some reason Minerva deems this event punishable by the transformation of Medusa's lovely hair into a mass of snakes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;No explanation is contained in the *Metamorphoses*, however, of how Neptune and Medusa find themselves in Minerva's sacred precinct, and the text nowhere says that Medusa was a priestess. According to Theoi.com, &quot;Earlier Greek writers and artists... simply portray her [*Medusa*] as a monster born into a large family of monsters.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus, writing around the same time as Ovid, or perhaps a bit later (in the 1st or 2nd century AD), is the only Greek source that seems to hint at the idea that Medusa's origin was perhaps different from her simply having been born as a monster. He says in *Bibliotheka* 2.4.3 that the slaying of Medusa by Perseus was Athena's own vanity project because &quot;they say that the Gorgon was fain to match herself with the goddess even in beauty.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It isn't until centuries later, in the mediaeval Latin compilations called the Vatican Mythographers, that I find the next mention of the story of Neptune's violation of a beautiful Medusa in Minerva's shrine, and of Minerva thereafter making her into a snake-haired horror. Once again, though, the Vatican Mythographers simply reiterate the information found in Ovid and contain nothing about priesthood for Medusa.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;No other source that I've found, Greek or Roman, ancient or mediaeval, mentions anything further about any sort of rivalry or relationship between Medusa and Athena/Minerva prior to the goddess becoming Perseus' patroness in his mission to slay the Gorgon. **So where does this notion of Medusa being a priestess of Athena come from?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The closest to such a claim that I've come across is in the speculative anthropology presented by Robert Graves in his 1955 book *The Greek Myths*, on p. 17 of which he writes that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;A large part of Greek myth is politico-religious history...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Perseus... probably, represented the patriarchal Hellenes who invaded&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greece and Asia Minor early in the second millennium BC, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; challenged the power of the Triple-goddess... Jane Harrison has&#xD;&#xA;&gt; pointed out (*Prolegomena to the Study of Greek Religion*, chapter V)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that Medusa was once the goddess herself, hiding behind a prophylactic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gorgon mask: a hideous face intended to warn the profane against&#xD;&#xA;&gt; trespassing on her Mysteries. Perseus beheads Medusa: that is, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hellenes overran the goddess's chief shrines, stripped her priestesses&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of their Gorgon masks, and took possession of the sacred horses—an&#xD;&#xA;&gt; early representation of the goddess with a Gorgon's head and a mare's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; body has been found in Boeotia... [T]he Hellenes annulled the ancient&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Medusan calendar, and replaced it with another.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But even in all of that Graves does not actually call Medusa a priestess, rather he says that this female monster was originally simply a mask of the great goddess whom he theorises was dethroned by later patriarchal usurpation in Europe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Could this be the point from which, at present day, it has become such a basic assumption that Medusa's story starts off with her as Athena's priestess?***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Or Conflation of Other Priestess Stories, Maybe?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Strangely, there are two priestesses of Athena who actually do occur in Greek myth and whose stories are less popular than that of this modern Medusa-priestess but which perhaps got conflated into the &quot;neo-myth&quot; in question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;The first priestess incidentally is connected with Medusa as well, her own name being Iodama. According to Pausanias, she once enters Athena's precinct by night, where, for some unexplained reason, Athena appears to her wearing a tunic with Medusa's face on it. Iodama, upon seeing that, turns to stone.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;The other priestess, named Auge, is an Arcadian princess whose story appears in several versions. For some reason or another her father installs her as priestess in Athena's temple at Tegea, a position requiring her perpetual celibacy. When Heracles [Hercules] comes through the region, however, he impregnates her, she gives birth to his son Telephus, and mother and son thereafter go through a series of adventures both at home and abroad.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;In no version does Athena ever punish Auge, unless one were to interpret the adventures she goes through and the threats to her life from her father, and certain other circumstances, as the work of the goddess. Instead the land in which Auge serves as Athena's priestess becomes barren as a result of the pollution of her having borne a child in the sacred precinct in which she then goes on to harbour the boy. Nonetheless in every version of the story both mother and child survive against nigh-impossible odds.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If the answer to my Question lies in none of the above, perhaps I've missed something in that one sentence of Ovid's in which Neptune happens upon Medusa. Could it have been understood that the only reason for the location of this encounter is that the temple must have been Medusa's workplace?  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29184" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1385" RevisionGUID="51e29e1c-8208-4ec0-b9c0-922c254f2f52" CreationDate="2022-07-25T01:04:40.377" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="29185" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10460" RevisionGUID="9a987eb8-704f-4988-b600-9229534949da" CreationDate="2022-07-25T06:47:32.610" UserId="6161" Text="Yes and no.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm afraid, from what I know, there isn't necessarily a nice, clean term to encapsulate what you're looking for, especially not one that has survived since the age of the Indo-European language. However, I'll do my best to supplement this disillusionment with some information to steer you towards something similar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Firstly, what you mention is most certainly an Indo-European mythological concept, but since the upheaval and replacement of cultures is ubiquitous across the world, it is not a unique concept. The [invasions of Ireland][1], the [war between the Greek Olympians and Titans][2], and the [Aesir-Vanir War][3] are all examples of this Indo-European myth that has spread throughout Eurasia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The closest term to this &quot;war-between-generational-gods&quot; is &quot;[**theomachy**][4],&quot; simply meaning &quot;god war&quot; in Greek.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other senses, it can be interpreted as intergenerational conflict, acculturation, colonization, and assimilation, for the basis of these myths is the emergence of new cultures and new gods, which symbolically wage war against and defeat the gods of the former culture. The most general approach to this is the agrarian vs. warlike peoples, as evidenced by the newer, warlike Aesir fighting the older, agrarian Vanir as well as the more agrarian Titans ([Rhea][5] and [Cronus][6] both had significant agricultural ties) fighting the more warlike Olympians that superseded them as rulers of the realm.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For further information, see the Crecganford channel for scholarly dives into Indo-European mythology. These two videos on [giants][7] and the [oldest gods][8] explain the prominence of this myth in fascinating depth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hope this helps a little, even if it's not the answer you're looking for. Have a fantastic day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebor_Gab%C3%A1la_%C3%89renn&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanomachy&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%86sir%E2%80%93Vanir_War&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theomachy&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhea_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlKpZXI1_6o&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWZBxp_SnLk" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29187" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10461" RevisionGUID="e31d29dc-6760-4513-894c-bfd9e8cde51f" CreationDate="2022-07-25T07:25:47.003" UserId="6161" Text="There aren't really, from what I know, any thresholds of transportation between worlds that would resemble portals in modern fantasy. Like all modern fantasy, however, such concepts of portals arise from myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A prominent symbol of travel between worlds is the river. Cultures stemming from Indo-European language groups hold this mythological motif in common. A soul must pass across a river to reach the afterlife, often with the help of a ferryman (see [Charon][1], [Urshanabi][2], and otherworlds like [Avalon][3]), or be guided to the next life by a [psychopomp][4]. [Mist][5] and birds carrying or embodying human souls are prevalent in these instances.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for specific portals, the [Bifrost][6] in Norse myth is more of a pathway than a portal, as are most thresholds that link worlds in mythology. However, some portal-like concepts exist, such as the [fairy rings][7] of European folklore and the [sidhe mounds][8] of Celtic myth. Again, myths of specific portals are sparse. Gates in mythology are fairly common, but they typically have a more symbolic purpose, like the Egyptian [gates in the Duat][9] and the Christian [gates to Heaven][10]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charon&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urshanabi&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalon&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopomp&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%A9th_f%C3%ADada&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bifr%C3%B6st&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairy_ring#Cultural_references&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/jce/sidhe.html&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gate_deities_of_the_underworld&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearly_gates" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29189" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10462" RevisionGUID="c61a5535-5848-452b-a37c-805db24c743d" CreationDate="2022-07-25T15:17:07.327" UserId="9399" Text="Marvel's Ghost Rider character always reminded me of tales of the headless horseman for intuitive reasons I was not able to explain, so I always wondered whether there is a connection between this modern superhero and the old North American legend. After doing research I was not able to find an explicit link, as all searches for &quot;Ghost Rider origins&quot; or similar queries returned results related to the hero's origin story within the Marvel universe. However, I did find that the tale of the headless horseman is related to older wild hunt myths. I also found that in many wild hunt myths the riders are demonic in nature and their prey are the souls of sinners. These themes are pretty clearly shared by Marvel's Ghost Rider. I also found that the folklore surrounding western legends about ghost riders (as in &quot;ghost riders in the sky,&quot; Stampede Mesa, etc.) is descended from/connected to the wild hunt myths, and I'm pretty sure that these legends are the origin of the superhero's name. Thus, I think that I can conclude pretty surely that Marvel's Ghost Rider can be considered a modern link in the chain of wild hunt myths, regardless of whether his creators intended this consciously.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is one aspect of the Ghost Rider character, however, which I have not been able to connect to the wild hunt, and it is the aspect about which I am most curious. Ghost Rider was originally a human being, and not always a demon. Furthermore, though he works for the Devil, and so is associated with evil, there is a sense in which his victims &quot;deserve&quot; what comes to them, since they are vile sinners and are being given payment for the actions they chose to commit. To generalize, there is an idea represented which I would express as something like &quot;the line between good and evil is blurry,&quot; or &quot;sometimes the things which repulse/horrify us are necessary/used for good.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**My Question:** Is there a way to connect this motif to the wild hunt? If so, what is the earliest example of this motif in folklore/mythology as it relates to the wild hunt? If not, is there another thread of folklore entwined in the Ghost Rider which would explain this motif?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29191" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10462" RevisionGUID="c61a5535-5848-452b-a37c-805db24c743d" CreationDate="2022-07-25T15:17:07.327" UserId="9399" Text="Folkloric Origins of the Ghost Rider" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29192" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10462" RevisionGUID="c61a5535-5848-452b-a37c-805db24c743d" CreationDate="2022-07-25T15:17:07.327" UserId="9399" Text="|myth-identification|folklore|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29193" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10463" RevisionGUID="fd613264-97f6-4ac1-a5b4-f789aa22eb6e" CreationDate="2022-07-26T14:39:04.503" UserId="9404" Text="The second part of Ghost Rider's mythological roots is simply that of a cursed soul or literally a ghost that rides, like Herne the Hunter, who also rattled with chains. The idea that members of the Wild Hunt might be cursed is obviously a product of Christianization. They were often hunting on a Christian holiday like Good Friday. That was enough to damn their souls for eternity. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The deal with the devil reminds me a bit of Jack O'Lantern and it is not uncommon to see Headless Horsemen depicted with a pumpkin as a head. Now combine this with the classic Faustian pact, that shows up in North American legends like the one of blues musician Robert Johnson, and mix it all together.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29195" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10463" RevisionGUID="45391b3e-2135-426d-9569-7afc901063c6" CreationDate="2022-07-26T14:43:11.913" UserId="9404" Comment="added 111 characters in body" Text="The second part of Ghost Rider's mythological roots is simply that of a cursed soul or literally a ghost that rides, like Herne the Hunter, who also rattled with chains. The idea that members of the Wild Hunt might be cursed is obviously a product of Christianization. They were often hunting on a Christian holiday like Good Friday. That was enough to damn their souls for eternity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tales from Northern Germany mention that the Wild Hunt hunts a female demon, like moss people or wood folk. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The deal with the devil reminds me a bit of Jack O'Lantern and it is not uncommon to see Headless Horsemen depicted with a pumpkin as a head. Now combine this with the classic Faustian pact, that shows up in North American legends like the one of blues musician Robert Johnson, and mix it all together.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29196" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="10292" RevisionGUID="e9163dec-ec24-4a3d-b9fb-c3cef7770eda" CreationDate="2022-07-30T11:07:10.677" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="29197" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10464" RevisionGUID="5cd2e570-0944-4056-8b49-f15803e6c189" CreationDate="2022-07-30T20:10:34.477" UserId="5806" Text="What I am asking for is if there is a source that fluently describe everything that went out when the jar was opened. I already know that it contained any kind of sickness, death, but was there any bad traits included? &#xD;&#xA;I mean hope is something people have. In a relative way we can assume that greed, jealousy and other negative traits could be included in the jar too, but I am not sure **if there is a source** to support that." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29199" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10464" RevisionGUID="5cd2e570-0944-4056-8b49-f15803e6c189" CreationDate="2022-07-30T20:10:34.477" UserId="5806" Text="What EXACTLY was contained in Pandora's Box" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29200" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10464" RevisionGUID="5cd2e570-0944-4056-8b49-f15803e6c189" CreationDate="2022-07-30T20:10:34.477" UserId="5806" Text="|pandora|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29201" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10464" RevisionGUID="0b159ada-675d-42ca-8645-9fd2b39046ad" CreationDate="2022-07-30T20:20:19.480" UserId="5806" Comment="added 186 characters in body" Text="What I am asking for is if there is a source that fluently describe everything that went out when the jar was opened. I already know that it contained any kind of sickness, death, but was there any bad traits included? &#xD;&#xA;I mean hope is something people have. In a relative way we can assume that greed, jealousy and other negative traits could be included in the jar too, but I am not sure **if there is a source** to support that.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am already aware of this topic:&#xD;&#xA;https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1670/what-exactly-was-in-pandoras-box&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately it doesn't answer my question so here I am." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29202" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10464" RevisionGUID="99fd13e0-2a3a-403c-a93d-cf314bf28f08" CreationDate="2022-07-30T20:25:26.797" UserId="5806" Comment="added 186 characters in body" Text="What I am asking for is if there is a source that fluently describe everything that went out when the jar was opened. I already know that it contained any kind of sickness, death, but was there any bad traits included? &#xD;&#xA;I mean hope is something people have. In a relative way we can assume that greed, jealousy and other negative traits could be included in the jar too, but I am not sure **if there is a source** to support that.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am already aware of this question:&#xD;&#xA;https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1670/what-exactly-was-in-pandoras-box&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately it doesn't answer my question.&#xD;&#xA;What can we know about the myth according to Hesiod or other ancient Greek sources?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If any Greek philologist spot my question, I would be really grateful to get links on Greek sources to study, as I am Greek myself, so sources in Greek are very welcome. (That doesn't mean that I won't appreciate a source in English though) " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29203" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10464" RevisionGUID="77141a64-1539-4f32-94ed-8435909ed3b2" CreationDate="2022-07-30T20:34:37.187" UserId="5806" Comment="added 64 characters in body; edited title" Text="What I am asking for is if there is a source that fluently describe everything that went out when the jar was opened. I already know that it contained any kind of sickness, death, but was there any bad traits included? &#xD;&#xA;I mean hope is something people have. In a relative way we can assume that greed, jealousy and other negative traits could be included in the jar too, but I am not sure **if there is a source** to support that.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am already aware of this question:&#xD;&#xA;https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1670/what-exactly-was-in-pandoras-box&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What can we know about the myth according to Hesiod or other ancient Greek sources?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If any Greek philologist spot my question, I would be really grateful to get links on Greek sources to study, as I am Greek myself, so sources in Greek are very welcome. (That doesn't mean that I won't appreciate a source in English though) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If there are NO exact on specific things, are there any groups of things that can be contained in the jar?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29204" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10464" RevisionGUID="77141a64-1539-4f32-94ed-8435909ed3b2" CreationDate="2022-07-30T20:34:37.187" UserId="5806" Comment="added 64 characters in body; edited title" Text="Were bad human traits contained in Pandora's Box?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29205" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10461" RevisionGUID="0dc00e91-6547-41ad-972b-e46c666fdacc" CreationDate="2022-07-31T20:43:25.677" UserId="6161" Comment="Added The Book of Enoch passage and explanation" Text="There aren't really, from what I know, any thresholds of transportation between worlds that would resemble portals in modern fantasy. Like all modern fantasy, however, such concepts of portals arise from myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A prominent symbol of travel between worlds is the river. Cultures stemming from Indo-European language groups hold this mythological motif in common. A soul must pass across a river to reach the afterlife, often with the help of a ferryman (see [Charon][1], [Urshanabi][2], and otherworlds like [Avalon][3]), or be guided to the next life by a [psychopomp][4]. [Mist][5] and birds carrying or embodying human souls are prevalent in these instances.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for specific portals, the [Bifrost][6] in Norse myth is more of a pathway than a portal, as are most thresholds that link worlds in mythology. However, some portal-like concepts exist, such as the [fairy rings][7] of European folklore and the [sidhe mounds][8] of Celtic myth. Again, myths of specific portals are sparse. Gates in mythology are fairly common, but they typically have a more symbolic purpose, like the Egyptian [gates in the Duat][9] and the Christian [gates to Heaven][10].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Actually, **this is likely more along the lines of what you're looking for**. The ancient Hebrew text, *[The Book of Enoch][11]*, makes explicit references of many portals between the heavenly and mortal realms, probably as a primitive explanation of how celestial and meteorological forces affect our world. This particular passage in *The Book of Enoch*, from Chapter LXXII of *The Book of the Courses of the Heavenly Luminaries*, is an example of these portals frequently mentioned in the text. In this case, an explanation of celestial bodies traveling across the sky:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And this is the first law of the luminaries: the luminary the Sun has its rising in the eastern portals of the heaven, and its setting in the western portals of the heaven. And I saw six portals in which the sun rises, and six portals in which the sun sets and the moon rises and sets in these portals, and the leaders of the stars and those whom they lead: six in the east and six in the west, and all following each other in accurately corresponding order: also many windows to the right and left of these portals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charon&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urshanabi&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalon&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopomp&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%A9th_f%C3%ADada&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bifr%C3%B6st&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairy_ring#Cultural_references&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/jce/sidhe.html&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gate_deities_of_the_underworld&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearly_gates&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/index.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29206" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10465" RevisionGUID="aba5a597-a9aa-4b16-8431-cd26dfa45e48" CreationDate="2022-07-31T21:18:40.733" UserId="6161" Text="Yes! The primary example that I am familiar with is the [féth fíada][1] of Irish mythology, magical mist that the most prominent clan of Irish deities, the [Tuatha Dé Danann][2], employ to hide themselves from the eyes of mortals. From [Oxford Reference][3]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A magic mist or veil that usually renders those under it invisible; sometimes those under it may take animal form. Also known as ceó druídecta, ceo draoidheachte [druid's fog]. Féth fíada is usually thought to be a power of druids and the Tuatha Dé Danann, given them by Manannán mac Lir after their defeat by the Milesians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unfortunately, that is the only named example I am aware of that fits your criteria. It is, however, the best example of what you're looking for. I am certain that other cultures had some ideas of this concept as well, for if both Irish and Greek cultures exhibit these similar notions, there is likely an Indo-European root to them. That's only speculation, though! Hope this helps, and have a great day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%A9th_f%C3%ADada&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuatha_D%C3%A9_Danann&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095815901" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29208" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10466" RevisionGUID="8357a74a-91c2-4e50-b04a-b0b130befe7b" CreationDate="2022-07-31T21:35:57.240" UserId="6161" Text="Due to Loki's nature as a trickster, among many other reasons, I believe he was demonized with the spread of Christianity in Scandinavia and associated somewhat with Lucifer/Satan (please correct me if I'm wrong). Did anything similar happen with Odin, as his involvement in seiðr and other magics could have been seen as satanic, or was he equated more as a Christ figure (i.e. hanging on Yggdrasil) or God equivalent (Allfather)?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any information helps. Thanks!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29210" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10466" RevisionGUID="8357a74a-91c2-4e50-b04a-b0b130befe7b" CreationDate="2022-07-31T21:35:57.240" UserId="6161" Text="How was Odin influenced by Christianity?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29211" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10466" RevisionGUID="8357a74a-91c2-4e50-b04a-b0b130befe7b" CreationDate="2022-07-31T21:35:57.240" UserId="6161" Text="|norse|christianity|odin|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29212" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10464" RevisionGUID="43f1dfcb-ff4f-4077-ab54-343c043ff33d" CreationDate="2022-07-31T23:14:14.100" UserId="5806" Comment="added 163 characters in body" Text="What I am asking for is if there is a source that fluently describe everything that went out when the jar was opened. I already know that it contained any kind of sickness, death, but was there any bad traits included? &#xD;&#xA;I mean hope is something people have. In a relative way we can assume that greed, jealousy and other negative traits could be included in the jar too, but I am not sure **if there is a source** to support that.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am already aware of this question:&#xD;&#xA;https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1670/what-exactly-was-in-pandoras-box&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What can we know about the myth according to Hesiod or other ancient Greek sources?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If any Greek philologist spot my question, I would be really grateful to get links on Greek sources to study, as I am Greek myself, so sources in Greek are very welcome. (That doesn't mean that I won't appreciate a source in English though) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If there are NO exact on specific things, are there any groups of things that can be contained in the jar?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Edit:&#xD;&#xA;What I am asking for is if there is a way **to confirm or deny for sure** that greed, jealousy and other negative human traits were included in the jar." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29213" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="10464" RevisionGUID="550ddb2a-9054-43f8-8201-ff94c3777761" CreationDate="2022-08-01T20:19:02.460" UserId="5806" Comment="129" />
  <row Id="29214" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10464" RevisionGUID="6bdb8f88-84f5-4f0d-b608-39dd499c96eb" CreationDate="2022-08-01T20:19:55.380" UserId="5806" Comment="added 107 characters in body" Text="What I am asking for is if there is a source that fluently describe everything that went out when the jar was opened. I already know that it contained any kind of sickness, death, but was there any bad traits included? &#xD;&#xA;I mean hope is something people have. In a relative way we can assume that greed, jealousy and other negative traits could be included in the jar too, but I am not sure **if there is a source** to support that.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am already aware of this question:&#xD;&#xA;https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1670/what-exactly-was-in-pandoras-box&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What can we know about the myth according to Hesiod or other ancient Greek sources?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If any Greek philologist spot my question, I would be really grateful to get links on Greek sources to study, as I am Greek myself, so sources in Greek are very welcome. (That doesn't mean that I won't appreciate a source in English though) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If there are NO exact on specific things, are there any groups of things that can be contained in the jar?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Edit:&#xD;&#xA;What I am asking for is if there is a way **to confirm or deny for sure** that greed, jealousy and other negative human traits were included in the jar. I also ask for the source that supports that, but being limited to ancient Greece and not Greek Roman era." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29218" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="4896" RevisionGUID="89ac34e3-34bb-460b-8d02-61598d7ceae5" CreationDate="2022-08-02T21:04:09.077" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="29219" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10468" RevisionGUID="f39e2062-7a37-4681-ad75-be628689b501" CreationDate="2022-08-03T12:33:10.660" UserId="9420" Text="Does anyone know about a god/dess who is known to have made animals attack other gods or humans? Preferably from non-European/non-Egyptian mythologies, as I already know about the Greek examples." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29221" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10468" RevisionGUID="f39e2062-7a37-4681-ad75-be628689b501" CreationDate="2022-08-03T12:33:10.660" UserId="9420" Text="Looking for god/dess of animals" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29222" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10468" RevisionGUID="f39e2062-7a37-4681-ad75-be628689b501" CreationDate="2022-08-03T12:33:10.660" UserId="9420" Text="|myth-identification|animals|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29223" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10469" RevisionGUID="f794a3f9-3cd2-4cf0-97cc-1e2e177a3c97" CreationDate="2022-08-04T02:39:07.117" UserId="8896" Text="The earliest evidenced appearance of the word &quot;cambion&quot; in the sense of an offspring of two demons is in the 1818 French-Language Dictionnaire Infernal. The 1825 edition of that book has the following entry: *CAMBION, -- Children of Demons. Delancre and Bodin believe that incubus demons can unite with succubus demons...*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Encyclopedia of Occultism and Parapsychology* the cambions are again said to be the direct offspring of the incubus and the succubus, foregoing any need for human involvement." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29225" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10469" RevisionGUID="f794a3f9-3cd2-4cf0-97cc-1e2e177a3c97" CreationDate="2022-08-04T02:39:07.117" UserId="8896" Text="Were Cambions originally the demon offspring of a Succubus and Incubus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29226" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10469" RevisionGUID="f794a3f9-3cd2-4cf0-97cc-1e2e177a3c97" CreationDate="2022-08-04T02:39:07.117" UserId="8896" Text="|origins|demons|medieval-europe|witchcraft|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29228" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10470" RevisionGUID="bcdf1ef3-6bfa-4e55-8af0-1cc572267355" CreationDate="2022-08-05T11:24:36.163" UserId="9427" Text="It's some time since this question was posted but I've just finished reading the 1994 edition so will put a word or two out there. I'm not an academic or a scholar in this or any field of inquiry.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What I've found interesting about this vast work is looking online into the various tribes and peoples he writes about and comparing what we now know in the 21st century compared to that of the late 19th and early 20th century. He clearly went down a few rabbit holes but found some entertaining and mind blowing warrens down there! Some of the accounts of tribal customs especially of the Indonesian archipelago and guinea are quite extraordinary. If they were accounts taken from questionnaires from missionary folk then a pinch or two of salt is required. This in itself is a fascinating snapshot into the practices and mindset of representatives of the western Christian church when it came across 'savage' customs. Frazer does though include a number of accounts of 'heathen' practices from journeymen/explorer type anthropologists of his time and previous generations which may well hold more weight than the prejudiced accounts from missionaries. He also includes accounts from Spanish writers over the period of the Spanish conquest of Central and South America. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is lacking is the mention of various plants and herbs used by indigenous peoples for spiritual purposes. There are a handful of examples but these are mainly from Africa. As we now know indigenous people of the Americas and the east used and still use quite a number of these species in their divination practices.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lastly it is the humanity of this highly educated Victorian Scotch gent that strikes me. As a child of the enlightenment there's perhaps no surprise in this sentiment. As a man of science he takes a sympathetic approach to the workings of primitive man's mind. He almost puts himself in their shoes in writing about how these people dealt with their often very dangerous environment in what the modern mind would deem a brutal and uncaring way but to a primitive mind makes total sense. Primitve mankind had a respect for nature and protected it in a number of ways. Their lives and souls depended on it's health and vitality. One look at indigenous peoples still extant around the world today and their relationship to and respect for their natural environment confirms this point.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Little did Frazer know that the science and 'progress' his and previous generations were making in the newly industrialized parts of the world would sow the seeds for the partial destruction of the planet. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29230" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10471" RevisionGUID="ba24525e-9d80-4dd8-aeae-42e82d0206be" CreationDate="2022-08-05T14:37:54.583" UserId="9434" Text="Hercules probably did not complete the Labors. The wolves he fought were almost even with him. Im sure if there were 1 or 2 more he would be dead. The legends shown show him wrestling with a giant lion and killing a giant boat with 1 strike. The legends are exaggerated to scare whoever hears them." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29232" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10472" RevisionGUID="604a44db-5ffe-4c0e-8ea9-4cc974bc6a8c" CreationDate="2022-08-05T15:38:53.347" UserId="53" Text="For questions regarding myths surrounding particular dates in the calendar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The calendar in question need not be that in current use." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29234" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10472" RevisionGUID="604a44db-5ffe-4c0e-8ea9-4cc974bc6a8c" CreationDate="2022-08-05T15:38:53.347" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29235" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10473" RevisionGUID="927e2fb2-9eb0-41b8-bd62-b19ba88d1cd7" CreationDate="2022-08-05T15:38:53.347" UserId="53" Text="For questions regarding myths surrounding particular dates in the calendar." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29237" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10473" RevisionGUID="927e2fb2-9eb0-41b8-bd62-b19ba88d1cd7" CreationDate="2022-08-05T15:38:53.347" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29238" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10474" RevisionGUID="6847c082-fb3c-4a85-9b55-8f6fef958d67" CreationDate="2022-08-05T15:43:33.363" UserId="53" Text="For questions regarding the craft of witches in mythology.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is not related to Wicca, which is not related to mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29240" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10474" RevisionGUID="6847c082-fb3c-4a85-9b55-8f6fef958d67" CreationDate="2022-08-05T15:43:33.363" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29241" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10475" RevisionGUID="2de72cf5-09b1-40af-ad30-4593cdbe989b" CreationDate="2022-08-05T15:43:33.363" UserId="53" Text="For questions regarding the craft of witches in mythology.  Not related to Wicca." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29243" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10475" RevisionGUID="2de72cf5-09b1-40af-ad30-4593cdbe989b" CreationDate="2022-08-05T15:43:33.363" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29244" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4621" RevisionGUID="3be421c8-91ba-46b2-ad28-25957296f60c" CreationDate="2022-08-05T15:47:43.307" UserId="53" Comment="Created wiki" Text="For myths related to crossing points of roads or paths." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29245" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4622" RevisionGUID="372d453a-c5f4-4dbf-91d7-24b4a34e1390" CreationDate="2022-08-05T15:47:43.307" UserId="53" Comment="Created wiki" Text="For questions regarding myths surrounding crossroads." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29246" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1868" RevisionGUID="e6dbbee2-bba8-4dbd-84a3-008309ab6c04" CreationDate="2022-08-05T15:48:25.280" UserId="53" Comment="Typo" Text="Relating to the Rosicrucians, or &quot;Order of the Rose Cross&quot;, as described in the Rosicrucian Manifestos." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29247" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1869" RevisionGUID="faabecf1-99b8-4942-bcd3-1b602bcb24f3" CreationDate="2022-08-05T15:48:25.280" UserId="53" Comment="Typo" Text="Relating to the Rosicrucians, or &quot;Order of the Rose Cross&quot;, as described in the Rosicrucian Manifestos." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29248" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10476" RevisionGUID="aac5fd8e-6ec7-4e31-a219-5cf741d07d43" CreationDate="2022-08-08T02:11:54.880" UserId="398" Text="This question is much more complicated than it seems at first glance, and there's a lot that could be said about how the Greeks conceived of personality traits and why we should never think about myths in a purely logical fashion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But I think if we tried asking an ancient Greek this question, they would say that yes, of course, things like greed and jealousy were in the pithos. We can say this with some confidence because most famously *elpis* (hope) was in the box, and this is a comparable trait to something like greed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is, however, a difference between someone being greedy and greed itself personified as a *daemon* of sorts. Greed and Hope are abstract concepts made concrete by turning them into divine powers, but they are not necessarily required for being greedy or being hopeful. Personality traits instead are what the gods gave people. For example, in creating Pandora, Hesiod in the *Theogony* says that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Hermes] the Guide, the Slayer of Argos, **contrived within her lies and crafty words and a deceitful nature** at the will of loud thundering Zeus, and the Herald of the gods put speech in her. And he called this woman Pandora (All-Gifts), because all they who dwelt on Olympos gave each a gift, a plague to men who eat bread.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So personality traits, what people are *like*, exist separately from what's inside the pithos, while one could conceive of something like Greed being released upon mankind when the pithos is opened." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29250" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10477" RevisionGUID="0970803a-d74b-42a9-9762-a9b6740c733e" CreationDate="2022-08-08T05:15:17.550" UserId="3208" Text="In the original Greek myths, there is no specification of the maladies that issue from the box after it is opened.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, in post-Renaissance fables the practice was to attribute the standard Catholic mortal sins to be the contents of the box. So, for example, we have the novel on Pandora along these lines by Andrew Olimpi, which reads as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Iuppiter arrogantium in vase posuit.*&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;        Juppiter put arrogance in the box.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Mars cupititatem posuit in vase.*&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Mars put greed in the box.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Iuno invidiam in vase posuit.*&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Juno put jealousy in the box.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Venus vanitatem in vase posuit.*&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Venus put vanity in the box.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Minerva iram in vase posuit.*&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Minerva put anger in the box&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Neptunus superbiam in vase posuit.*&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Neptune put pride in the box.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Pluto terrorem in vase posuit.*&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Pluto put fear in the box.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, the seven deadly sins are placed in the box, one by each god. In this account the standard sin, luxuria (lust), is replaced by fear and gluttony is inexplicably missing replaced by arrogance, a duplicate for pride.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29252" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10478" RevisionGUID="2752feed-220d-4bba-9105-4af58af9b4d8" CreationDate="2022-08-08T05:18:24.110" UserId="3208" Text="There is an Irish myth in which a foreign king comes by the sea and lands in Ireland where he encounters a princess and they dally for one afternoon and he tells her, &quot;You shall be born of a king&quot; and he gives her his ring as a momento, then departs. Eventually she gives birth to an important king. What is this myth?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29254" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10478" RevisionGUID="2752feed-220d-4bba-9105-4af58af9b4d8" CreationDate="2022-08-08T05:18:24.110" UserId="3208" Text="What is the Irish myth of the maiden seduced for one day by the foreign king?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29255" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10478" RevisionGUID="2752feed-220d-4bba-9105-4af58af9b4d8" CreationDate="2022-08-08T05:18:24.110" UserId="3208" Text="|irish|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29256" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="10464" RevisionGUID="5bd3f610-e579-48af-ba12-d385600b0cab" CreationDate="2022-08-08T22:14:52.517" UserId="5806" Comment="129" />
  <row Id="29261" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10480" RevisionGUID="b515fba1-940b-47a7-b158-ab5afb5214b9" CreationDate="2022-08-09T18:33:54.010" UserId="9444" Text="Hermes, along with some of the other gods, was more or less dragged into the war, with no actual interest for either side. He allowed his direct Trojan opponent, Leto (mother of Artemis and Apollo), to beat him in battle. &#xD;&#xA;However, Hermes had a great interest in Odysseus, who was a descendant of his son Autolycus. But generally, he didn’t favor either side. Technically you could say he sided with the Greeks, but with no actual opinion on the war itself.&#xD;&#xA;It could also be that Zeus is his father, but I wouldn’t count on that particularly. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29268" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7906" RevisionGUID="8fdce5a0-09fc-4613-b56c-e5b291c907ac" CreationDate="2022-08-13T16:33:59.347" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; added a detail" Text="**Definitions**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Presumably by &quot;demigods&quot; you are referring to the relatively modern term as taken to denote a character from Greco-Roman mythology who is the offspring of a deity and of a human being.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Ancient Greek *hēmítheos* and the Latin *semideus*, from which we get the English &quot;demigod,&quot; do literally mean &quot;half-god,&quot; but this is misleading. The ancient usage of these terms does not refer to a mortal who is literally half divine based on his/her parentage. Rather it is a term for a lower-tier divinity, a sort of minor god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Ancient Greek religion one can sketch out roughly three different levels of divinities who were honoured with cults: the *theoí* (gods); the *hēmítheoí*; and the *Hḗrōes* (Heroes). For the most part, the *theoí* were born immortal and had always been &quot;the gods.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Hēmítheoí* and Heroes were two different classes of divinities who typically tended to be dead humans who were recognised for their great deeds in life and therefore considered, in the afterlife, to have become powerful entities although lesser than the *theoí*. And it did so happen that a majority of them happened to have at least one divine parent.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover the differences among these three different levels was not a permanent configuration, as demonstrated by the myth in which Herakles [Heracles] starts out as a Hero and then works his way up gradually to become a *hēmítheos* and eventually a full-blown *theós*, or, perhaps, more strictly speaking, he is considered to inhabit all three categories at the same time. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In one story, after Herakles’ suicide, his remains could not be found&#xD;&#xA;&gt; on his funeral pyre, so his nephew Iolaos became the first to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sacrifice to the dead hero as a *hemitheos* (demigod). &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; According to Pausanias’ *Description of Greece*, Herakles had a son&#xD;&#xA;&gt; named Phaistos [Phaestus] who became king of the city of Sikyon. When&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Phaistos first arrived at Sikyon he found that the locals were making&#xD;&#xA;&gt; offerings to Herakles as a hero. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; Phaistos then refused to do anything of the kind, but insisted on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; sacrificing to him as to a *theos*. Even at the present day [`100s AD, over a thousand years after Herakles’ death`] the Sikyonians,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; slaying a lamb and burning the thighs upon the altar, eat some of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; meat as part of a victim given to a *theos*, while the rest they offer&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; as to a hero.    &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; [2.10.1]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;~ *from [my Answer to another&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Question](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/2666/2682)*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Lifespan**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as I am aware, the only extant ancient attestations of Herakles' age at death are in Clement of Alexandria's *Exhortation to the Greeks*, and Jerome's *Chronicon*, both of which are late sources by Christian authors. They both say that Herakles had lived for fifty-two years when his body burned on Mt Oita [Oeta]. (The ambiguous wording in Clement's text might possibly be implying that his source for this detail is either one of the Peripatetic philosophers Hieronymus or Dicaearchus.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jerome also adds that &quot;certain people, however, write that he [*Herakles*] perished&quot; when he was only thirty years old. Later yet than that, the *General History* of King Alfonso X of Castile (1200s AD) cites the common lifespan of fifty-two for the hero, but includes a note that certain accounts make Herakles forty when he died.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even going by the more modern Riordanesque definition of &quot;demigod,&quot; there is nothing particularly special about the lifespans of the children born from unions between humans and the Greco-Roman gods. For the most part, generally speaking, in terms of capabilities, durability and nature, they are just as mortal, vulnerable and human as all other ordinary men and women, pretty much indistinguishable from them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Among these mortal progeny of the gods there are indeed some who stand out in a few different ways, but they are exceptions. Especially as far as lifespan is concerned, this is best illustrated by another son of Zeus, namely King Sarpedon of Lycia, who was slain in the Trojan War, despite Zeus's own desire to keep him alive. According to Apollodorus' *Bibliotheca* 3.1.2, Zeus had created a special dispensation for him to live for three generations, thus making him most likely the oldest person to fight in that war.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Glitches in the Timeline**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even ancient mythographers seemed to be a little bit incredulous at the idea that Sarpedon, who should have died something like a hundred years before the Trojan War, was one of the warriors defending Troy. This gave rise to two different versions of the character. In Homer's *Iliad* he does not seem to be a supernaturally old man, being the son of Zeus by Bellerophontes' daughter Laodameia. There is, however, also the version in which he is the son of Zeus and Europa, and thus one of the brothers of King Minos of Crete. In yet one other variant the Sarpedon who dies at Troy is the grandson of Minos' brother Sarpedon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The mythology is somewhat replete with chronological discrepancies like this one. Minos himself is supposed to have died only one generation before the Trojan War. However, if he was the son of Europa, then by my calculations we would have to have been at least two hundred years old at death. Again, certain ancient writers, being aware of the issue, came up with similar explanations as those for his brother Sarpedon. The Minos who died a generation before the war at Troy, according to them, is the *grandson* of a more ancient Minos, who in turn was the son of Zeus and Europa.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On occasion, Herakles/Hercules also encounters individuals from long before his time in places like Egypt and India. The Roman writer Cicero explains this away by asserting that there were a number of different previous characters called Hercules, and some of them were children of Zeus (or rather of his Roman counterpart Jupiter) by yet *other* women.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It would be a clever hack to these anachronisms to deduce that these &quot;demigods,&quot; because of their descent from the gods, are just that long-lived, and therefore could last a couple of centuries before growing old and perishing, but no ancient source makes such a claim. Hence all mortals, whether their parents are immortal or divine or not, are portrayed as suffering the same rate of decay as everybody else, unless extracurricular intervention is made on their behalf.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Minimum* Life Expectancy**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Whatever age at which a regular garden-variety human can die is the same age at which a &quot;demigod&quot; can end his life, which is why Herakles' stepmother Hera tried to assassinate him when he was still a baby. Although that attempt failed, there are, in fact, quite gruesome stories featuring the deaths of infant children of certain deities. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In one, an Argive princess named Psamathe was raped by the god Apollon [Apollo] and bore him a son named Linos [Linus]. Being unmarried and still living in her father's house, Psamathe had managed to keep the birth a secret, but fearful of what her father might do, she abandoned the newborn outside where he was torn apart by the king's sheepdogs. (This tragedy is part of a story told to explain how a temple of Apollon came to be built on Mt Gerania.) " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29269" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6353" RevisionGUID="b23c12ad-10eb-4181-8461-5b7713f142cf" CreationDate="2022-08-14T02:45:02.580" UserId="2682" Comment="added a section" Text="**Wealth in the Midst of Seasonal Dearth**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A rather concise explanation is offered by Jakob Escher-Bürkli in the &quot;Danaë&quot; article that he contributes to *Paulys Realencyclopädie der classischen Altertumswissenschaft*, in which he says (in my own translation from the original German) that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The motif of the golden rain is based on two points: the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; country's lack of water and the wealth of the Perseids.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Argos, the region of the kingdom ruled over by Danae's father Acrisius, was well known for suffering drought during the summer. The area's rivers drying up during this season was even attributed to the spitefulness of Poseidon, King of the Sea and lord of the sources of fresh waters, who was vengeful about having been passed over for Hera in his candidacy to become Argos's patron deity several generations before Danae's time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The city of Mycenae (founded by Perseus in some accounts), which neighboured Argos, together with Argos itself, and the Argolid in general, nonetheless combined into a rich and powerful kingdom, to the extent that at the time of the Trojan War, some generations after Perseus, its ruler Agamemnon was the leader of all the Greek forces.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Escher-Bürkli's conclusion dovetails well with one of the responses to this question made by Madlyn Millner Kahr and Robert Graves: that the shower is rain fructifying the parched earth. (More on that in the last section `Rain`, below.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Cold Hard Cash**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The overwhelmingly predominant interpretation, at least starting from the 1st century BC, is that the gold = money, although this view started out, it seems, simply as an accusation potentially made by Acrisius in Euripides' (now fragmentary) tragedy *Danae* a few centuries prior to that. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In what we know from other sources, Danae swears to Acrisius that her child has been sired by Zeus but Acrisius refuses to believe it, thinking it must be some rich mortal man, or such the like, who paid with gold for her favours. The myth provided much fodder for comedians, who took the accusation and ran with it, except that in their jabs it really *is* Zeus who is paying to have Danae consort with him, and thus the divine gold explicitly becomes gold *coinage*, such as is claimed by Antipater of Thessalonica and by Parmenion in the *Greek Anthology* (as cited by yannis in his Answer).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Comedic though these writings are, they are nonetheless, attempts to rationalise away a fantastical element of the tale while still keeping Zeus in the picture as the perpetrator of this prostitution (allowing the writers to have their cake and eat it too). If, however, we're looking for a less rationalist-symbolic and more in-universe answer to the question, the aforementioned Antipater points the way, incidentally, if not necessarily deliberately.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Primordial Golden Man of the First Era**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Antipater alludes to the epic myth, narrated by Hesiod and others, of different successive phases or breeds of men in primordial times, the first three of whom were made of gold, silver and then bronze. According to Hesiod's *Works and Days*, the first stock of men, made of gold, lived in the time of Zeus' father the Titan Kronos, and it seems that their time ended together with Kronos' reign. The silver men who replaced the gold ones were destroyed by Zeus and in turn were replaced by men of bronze prior to the Phase of Heroes (Zeus' and Danae's son Perseus being one of these heroes).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Antipater reduces all of this into a metaphor for the varying degrees of financial ability to pay in order to be &quot;honoured&quot; by Cythereia (i.e. Aphrodite, the goddess of sex). Maria Kanellou comments on this, saying&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Antipater of Thessalonica cleverly blends together the concepts&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of golden Aphrodite, the golden age of the human race, and Zeus’&#xD;&#xA;&gt; metamorphosis into gold. Aphrodite, the patroness of hetaerae, is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; constantly described as golden from Homer onwards, and in Antipater&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *AP* 5.30 = *GPh* 6 the speaker humorously argues that the epic poet rightly attributed the epithet to Aphrodite since one cannot have sex&#xD;&#xA;&gt; if one does not pay. In *AP* 5.31, Antipater expands on this idea, as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aphrodite is not just golden but also brazen and silver.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;The adjective ‘golden’ joins together the two myths and makes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; easy the transition from the golden race of men to the golden client&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and then golden Zeus and the allegation that he paid 100 golden coins&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to have sex with Danae.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Plato's *Cratylus* 398a, Socrates argues that when Hesiod calls the first mortal men &quot;golden&quot; he simply means that they were &quot;good and beautiful.&quot; Apollodorus, and Apollonius Rhodius, however, give a report to the effect that the more general (rather than Platonic philosophical) belief was that different types of metallic men had actually lived on Earth back in the day, for both authors say that Talos, the gigantic brazen sentinel of Crete Island, is supposed to have been a survivor of the time of the bronze breed of men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is therefore quite plausible that Zeus appeared to Danae as one of the golden men of the *Works and Days*: the best men, from the paradisaical first stage in the history of mortals. When this group of men died out, say Lines 121-125 of this poem, the Earth covered them over and they became benevolent surface-dwelling *daimones* [daemons] who roamed all over the world, &quot;clothed in mist&quot; as they kept watch over humankind.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are many points of resonance between that and Danae's impregnation narrative, in the latter of which: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - according to the oldest accounts thereof, her prison is located underground&#xD;&#xA;   (the direction in which the golden men have gone upon their demise);&#xD;&#xA; - she goes under the earth and thereafter is restored to the upper world from which she came, while Zeus descends into her chamber and then disappears thereafter, as mysteriously as he arrived (like the mist in which the golden *daimones* are enveloped); and&#xD;&#xA; - she is eventually rescued from the sea, courtesy of the watchfulness of Zeus (according to Hyginus), having given birth to a hero who delivers from harm (like the *daimones* are said to do).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Foreshadowing the Hero**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It might at first seem far-fetched to think that, consequently, Perseus was partially golden himself, but perhaps it warrants some consideration when noticing the manner in which the theme of gold crops up at nearly every highlight of this hero's career, upon more of which we arrive further below. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After Perseus dies his father places him into the sky as the constellation which bears his name. In Seneca's *Hercules Furens*, the dead hero's divine stepmother refers to him as &quot;golden Perseus&quot;. She might be referring to the celestial star-cluster into which he has been made, or she could mean that the mortal man was himself, in some way, composed of the precious substance in view here. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Antipater, and his fellow epigrammatist Paul the Silentiary, and virtually every commentator on the story since their time have noted the juxtaposition of the gold into which Zeus transforms over against the cell of bronze within which Acrisius has imprisoned Danae, and which becomes the place where the golden Zeus impregnates the princess with Perseus. For them, however, the significance of the comparison between the two metals is simply as sexual innuendo or, at most, as symbolism representing the power of bribery over the toughest of obstacles.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The appearance of these substances at the beginning of Perseus' story, however, not only hearkens to Antipater's allusion to Hesiod's metal men, but it also sets up a thematic undercurrent in Perseus' adventures, which begin as soon as he is born. According to *Danae's Lament*, composed by the poet Simonides, the wooden chest which Acrisius casts into the sea, containing our &quot;golden boy&quot; Perseus together with his mother, is bolted with bronze. (According to Hesiod and Apollonius, the bronze stock of men was born from ash-trees, and so these mortals were probably partially wooden as well.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Gorgons, against whom Perseus contends, have bronze hands and golden wings, and one of the creatures born from the blood spilled by Perseus upon his beheading of Medusa is named Chrysaor, &quot;Golden Blade,&quot; because he is born wielding a golden sword. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his mission against the Gorgons, Perseus is outfitted with a bronze shield. In Hesiod's *Shield of Heracles*, Perseus appears upon the titular shield in the form of a fully golden man over whose shoulders is slung a sword &quot;by a cross-belt of bronze.&quot; (The magic satchel he carries is silver, tricked out with golden tassels.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his encounter with Atlas in Libya, the conflict between him and the Titan is on account of Atlas' dread that a son of Zeus is destined to steal his golden apples. According to Hesiod's *Theogony*, Atlas dwells at the edge of the Earth, by the entrance to the Underworld where Night meets Day across a threshold of bronze. (In the same poem, Chrysaor's father Poseidon is closely associated with the bronze of the Underworld.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Freedom and Transcendence**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The bronze of Danae's prison, from ancient into Renaissance times, has typically been interpreted to represent restriction and prohibition, and it surely does stand in for these things. In that case the gold, whether we interpret it as something as mundane as money or as supernatural as a gigantic primaeval golden man, symbolises freedom for Danae.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For Perseus it introduces his worth: the hardiness making him equal to the task of going up against literally metallic monsters. It also represents transcendence: just as the Gorgons' golden wings allow them to fly, so too shall Perseus be a hero who can literally take to the skies, and having started out being born in a dungeon and nearly drowned at a tender age, he traverses the entire world, from the western edge of the cosmos in Libya to the land of the Hyperboreans in the north, and unto Ethiopia in the south. According to Hyginus, his translation into the sky as a constellation means that he also transcends death itself to become one of the immortals: Seneca's &quot;golden Perseus&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sunlight**    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Citing Ovid, Horace and the Vatican Mythographers, Ioanna Karamanou notes&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; that &quot;Certain Latin sources refer to Danae’s imprisonment in a tower rather than a chamber&quot;. This becomes the preferred version for Christian commentators on the story, upon whose work Madlyn Millner Kahr elaborates&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; as follows in her article &quot;Danaë: Virtuous, Voluptuous, Venal Woman.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;In the twelfth century, the allegorical interpretation of myths&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was already well established in the service of Christian moral&#xD;&#xA;&gt; teachings. Danaë became a symbol of modesty, *Pudicitia*, and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tower that protected her virtue represented Chastity. Danaë even&#xD;&#xA;&gt; served as a parallel to the Virgin Mary in a Moralized Ovid as early&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as 1328.&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Some sixty years later the Dominican monk, Franciscus de Retza,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wrote: &quot;If Danaë conceived from Jupiter through a golden shower, why&#xD;&#xA;&gt; should the Virgin not give birth when impregnated by the Holy Spirit?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ... A woodcut&lt;sup&gt;✭&lt;/sup&gt; in the first Basel edition (ca. 1490) of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Franciscus de Retza's *Defensorium Inviolatae Virginitatis Marie*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shows the chaste Danaë leaning out of the window of her tower, which&#xD;&#xA;&gt; resembles a chessman more than a prison. The germinating power of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sun represents Jove's golden shower...&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Allegorical interpretations based on the tradition of the chaste&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Danaë also survived in Renaissance texts. Pierio Valeriano wrote: &quot;The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; poets related that gold poured into the lap of Danaë, the most&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beautiful of women. They mean by 'Danaë' the beauty of the soul, which&#xD;&#xA;&gt; comprises the natural virtues that God loves; indeed, they signify by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the 'golden shower' the abundant flow of heavenly favor, which must be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sought from the love and mercy of God...&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Retza Danae 1490 woodcut][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;✭ Kahr inserts a reference here to this image (above), which appears as &quot;Fig. 1&quot; in her article, also going on to say&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; that:&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Of all the sixteenth-century examples, the Danaë in 1527 by Jan&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gossaert&lt;sup&gt;✭✭&lt;/sup&gt; was the most explicitly a &quot;good Danaë&quot; in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tradition of the medieval *Pudicitia* type. Gossaert's Danaë&#xD;&#xA;&gt; represents a direct parallel to the Virgin of Humility. Her robe is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; blue, a color associated with the Virgin Mary. She wears a delicate&#xD;&#xA;&gt; diadem, like that worn by the Madonna in Gossaert's painting in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Prague, *Saint Luke Painting the Virgin*. Though humble, Mary is Queen&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Heaven, and Danaë is a princess. Danaë's exposed breast might link&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her with *Maria lactans*, mother of all, although the breast, like her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bare legs, could also be construed as sexually suggestive. She sits on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cushions on the floor, a token of her humility in the presence of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; divinity, toward whose manifestation she lifts her eyes. In her skirt&#xD;&#xA;&gt; she collects the drops of gold that stream into her lap from above.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Her airy environment suggests grandeur rather than imprisonment, an&#xD;&#xA;&gt; impression strengthened by the fact that other imposing buildings are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; visible between the graceful Renaissance columns of her chamber.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jove's golden presence recalls the medieval association of gold with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the highest Christian values.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Gossaert Danae][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;✭✭ A reference to &quot;Fig. 2,&quot; a copy&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; of this painting (above) is inserted here in Kahr's article.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the 21st century AD, at least two paintings, Gene Gould's *Danae* and Kyle Staver's *Danae and the Parakeet*, actually depict the shower upon the princess as real rays of sunlight.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Returning to the older configuration of the myth, if Zeus's descent *underground*, into Danae's dungeon (rather than into a tower), happened to go via the chamber's roof and cause damage to it, he may have brought actual sunlight into the cell, which, depending on the design, may not have previously had access to natural light. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the &quot;magical impregnation&quot; article&lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt; of the *Funk &amp; Wagnalls Standard Dictionary of Folklore, Mythology and Legend*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Widespread, in Siberia, Oceania, Latin America, Africa, China,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; North America, is the belief in the fertilizing power of the sun’s&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rays falling on a woman. Not only is this reflected in the mythology&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of these regions, but in  practice great care is taken to keep girls,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; especially in their first menstruation, away from all contact with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sunlight... Some such belief  and practice may underlie the Danae&#xD;&#xA;&gt; story, for sunlight and gold are often synonymous in imagery, and the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; seclusion of the girl who nevertheless is impregnated by the sun's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rays may easily be read into the myth.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Rain**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Footnote 20 of Kahr's article&lt;sup&gt;7&lt;/sup&gt;, &quot;Danaë is also associated with Mother Earth, requiring rain for germination.&quot; Robert Graves seems to share this opinion while also linking Zeus in this story to the sun. On pp. 243-244 of *The Greek Myths* (1960, Penguin Books) he says that&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zeus's impregnation of Danaë with a shower of gold must refer to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ritual marriage of the Sun and Moon... It can also be read as a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; pastoral allegory: 'water is gold' for the shepherd, and Zeus sends&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thunder-showers on the earth – Danaë.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Notes***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. See p. 261 of *Greek Epigram from the Hellenistic to the Early Byzantine Era*, Edited by Maria Kanellou, Ivana Petrovic, &amp; Chris Carey (2019), Oxford University Press, United Kingdom.  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; The relevant section is Ch. 15 of this book (pp. 249-271), written by Kanellou, and entitled &quot;Mythological Burlesque and Satire in Greek Epigram—A Case Study: Zeus’ Seduction of Danae.&quot;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. From p. 9 of her January 2005 Doctoral Thesis &quot;A Commentary on Euripides' *Danae* and *Dictys*&quot; in University College London's Department of Greek and Latin, Published by ProQuest LLC, 2013, Ann Arbor, MI.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. In *The Art Bulletin* Vol. 60, No. 1 (Mar., 1978), pp. 43-55. (Quotes taken specifically from p. 44).&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;4. Ibid, pp. 45-46.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;5. MrArifnajafov. 8 February 2012, &quot;Jan Gossaert gen. Mabuse (1478-1532) Danae (1527),&quot; Privatarchiv Foto von MrArifnajafov fotografiert, viewed 9 May 2020, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Danae_(1527).JPG&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;6. On p. 661 of *Volume Two: J-Z*, Ed. Maria Leach &amp; Jerome Fried (1950), the Funk &amp; Wagnalls Company, New York.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;7. *The Art Bulletin* Vol. 60, No. 1 (Mar., 1978), p. 46.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Fq3xE.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/47MX6.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29272" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10483" RevisionGUID="9b5db880-b7a1-4fe9-9b11-d8262779599c" CreationDate="2022-08-21T03:56:48.417" UserId="398" Text="There's a commonly told &quot;Cherokee&quot; fable about a [boy and a rattlesnake](https://www.firstpeople.us/FP-Html-Legends/TheLittleBoyAndTheRattlesnake-Cherokee.html). What's the origin of this fable? Where do we see it first see it in print and does it indeed go back to Cherokee wisdom? I ask because it is very similar to [the Farmer and the Viper](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Farmer_and_the_Viper), one of Aesop's fables. I am curious if there is a connection between the two or if they arose independently of each other?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For reference, here's the Farmer and the Snake, courtesy of [Milo Winter](https://read.gov/aesop/094.html):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A Farmer walked through his field one cold winter morning. On the ground lay a Snake, stiff and frozen with the cold. The Farmer knew how deadly the Snake could be, and yet he picked it up and put it in his bosom to warm it back to life.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Snake soon revived, and when it had enough strength, bit the man who had been so kind to it. The bite was deadly and the Farmer felt that he must die. As he drew his last breath, he said to those standing around:  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Learn from my fate not to take pity on a scoundrel.*" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29274" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10483" RevisionGUID="9b5db880-b7a1-4fe9-9b11-d8262779599c" CreationDate="2022-08-21T03:56:48.417" UserId="398" Text="The Boy and the Rattlesnake: What's the origin of this Cherokee fable?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29275" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10483" RevisionGUID="9b5db880-b7a1-4fe9-9b11-d8262779599c" CreationDate="2022-08-21T03:56:48.417" UserId="398" Text="|greek|native-american|cherokee|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29285" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="98" RevisionGUID="29f85896-c2ba-47d6-9ca7-61dd5c47298c" CreationDate="2022-08-24T12:52:56.720" UserId="398" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;cmw&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="29286" PostHistoryTypeId="12" PostId="10483" RevisionGUID="dfa6a24d-d7fa-4dd3-97d4-5c0b799819c0" CreationDate="2022-08-24T12:54:42.130" UserId="398" Comment="via Vote" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;cmw&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="29287" PostHistoryTypeId="13" PostId="10483" RevisionGUID="36011a1a-872a-4a90-861a-537865636403" CreationDate="2022-08-25T02:33:04.713" UserId="398" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;cmw&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="29288" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10486" RevisionGUID="dd07ed83-21b2-4a16-b02b-103cdaa0bbb7" CreationDate="2022-08-25T16:07:21.723" UserId="8896" Text="I heard that in ancient Hindu texts there's 33 gods in Hindu mythology, but this doesn't make sense since I have compiled a list of way more than 33 gods who's names I have found so far.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What's up with that, why am I finding a lot more gods if it's said there's only 33 gods in Hindu mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29290" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10486" RevisionGUID="dd07ed83-21b2-4a16-b02b-103cdaa0bbb7" CreationDate="2022-08-25T16:07:21.723" UserId="8896" Text="How many gods are in Hindu mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29291" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10486" RevisionGUID="dd07ed83-21b2-4a16-b02b-103cdaa0bbb7" CreationDate="2022-08-25T16:07:21.723" UserId="8896" Text="|hindu|gods|india|vedic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29293" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10486" RevisionGUID="9c29467b-d0e0-4bbd-b7a8-d6f6be617240" CreationDate="2022-08-25T21:00:40.600" UserId="8896" Comment="added 133 characters in body" Text="I heard that in ancient Hindu texts there's 33 gods in Hindu mythology, but this doesn't make sense since I have compiled a list of way more than 33 gods who's names I have found so far.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What's up with that, why am I finding a lot more gods if it's said there's only 33 gods in Hindu mythology?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“Who out of many, tell me, is that Skambha He in whose body is contained all three-and-thirty Deities?” – (Atharva Veda 10.7.13)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29294" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10487" RevisionGUID="66d78ba5-38fb-4dcc-aad4-4cd1f43e4338" CreationDate="2022-08-26T01:59:12.210" UserId="6920" Text="The metaphysics of this is complicated.  Multiple gods may have a relationship such that several are an aspect of another.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the *Brihadaranyaka Upanishad*, we find [this passage][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Then Vidagdha, the son of Sakala, asked him: “How many gods are there, Yajnavalkya?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Yajnavalky said, “As many as are indicated in the Nivid of the Visvadevas – 300 and 3003.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;“Very well,” said Sakalya. “How many gods exactly are there, Yajnavalkya?”&#xD;&#xA;“Thirty-three.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;“Very well,” said Sakalya. “How many gods exactly are there, Yajnavalkya?”&#xD;&#xA;“Six.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;“Very well,” said Sakalya. “How many gods exactly are there, Yajnavalkya?”&#xD;&#xA;“Three.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;“Very well,” said Sakalya. “How many gods exactly are there, Yajnavalkya?”&#xD;&#xA;“Two.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;“Very well,” said Sakalya. “How many gods exactly are there, Yajnavalkya?”&#xD;&#xA;“One-and-a-half.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;“Very well,” said Sakalya. “How many gods exactly are there, Yajnavalkya?”&#xD;&#xA;“One.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;“Very good,” said Sakalya, and he asked: “Which are those 303 and those 3003?”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Yajnavalkya said: “There are only 33 gods. These others are but manifestations of them.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.newscientist.com/letter/mg19125641-200-how-many-gods-are-there/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29296" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10488" RevisionGUID="07d399d8-1719-46db-a2ee-a5a5921b1de0" CreationDate="2022-08-26T10:48:59.027" UserId="7755" Text="**15th century**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Illuminati is based upon fact. The word dates back to the fifteenth century and simply means &quot;enlightened&quot;. The designation was applied to various groups and people who claimed to be enlightened.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Britannica encyclopedia][1]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; illuminati, designation in use from the 15th century, assumed by or applied to various groups of persons who claimed to be unusually enlightened. The word is the plural of the Latin illuminatus (“revealed” or “enlightened”).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Italy, Spain, France**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The origins of the earliest illuminati probably lie in Italy during the 1400s, before spreading to France via Spain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Encyclopedia.com][2]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The term was used in Spain about the end of the fifteenth century, but probably originated from an Italian Gnostic source. All kinds of people, many of them charlatans, claimed to belong to the Illuminati. In Spain those who assumed the label had to face the rigor of the Inquisition, and many of them moved to France as refugees in the early seventeenth century.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Illuminés**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, this group were &quot;not quite&quot; known as the illuminati, but the illumines.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Britannica encycopedia][1]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The movement (under the name of Illuminés) seems to have reached France from Seville in 1623. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Bavarian Illuminati**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On May Day 1776 another group was of the same name was formed by [Adam Weishaupt][3]. However this group was banned by an edict of the Bavarian government in 1785, and no evidence that it continued in secret can be found, though there are conspiracy theorists that adhere to the thesis that the illuminati survived by going underground, and possibly even that the origins of the illuminati predate the fifteenth century word itself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Britannica encycopedia][1]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The movement suffered from internal dissension and was ultimately banned by an edict of the Bavarian government in 1785. Some members were imprisoned, while others were driven from their homes. Weishaupt was stripped of his chair at Ingolstadt and banished from Bavaria. After 1785 the historical record contains no further activities of Weishaupt’s illuminati, but the order figured prominently in conspiracy theories for centuries after its disbanding. It was credited with activities ranging from the instigation of the French Revolution to the assassination of U.S. Pres. John F. Kennedy, and the notion of an all-knowing cabal of ancient masters remained a powerful image in the popular consciousness into the 21st century.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;****&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One conspiracy theory posits that the Illuminati instigated the French revolution. If there is any truth in this, it is quite simply a case of illuminist ideas being picked up on by occultists in France. This is not to say that the occultists are a part of the same organisation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Encycopedia.com][2]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; However, illuminist ideas spread to occultists in France and helped in building support for the French Revolution.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Other Illuminati**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The title Illuminati was later given to French Martinists&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Encyclopedia.com][2]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The title Illuminati was later given to the French Martinists, followers of the French mystic Louis Claude de St. Martin (1743-1803), known as &quot;le philosophe inconno.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Final answer**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The source for the original Illuminati and its branches in different languages is in the dictionary dating back to the fifteenth century. Out of all the different groups that have used the title, the group that conspiracy theorists mostly use to draw upon is Adam Weishaupt's Bavarian Illuminati. Whilst there have been groups using the title dating back to the 1400s, and groups that formed after the disbandment of the Bavarian Illuminati, the notion that the Bavarian Illuminati predates the fifteenth century word itself, or has survived in secret, is mostly thought to be a conspiracy theory with no supporting evidence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.britannica.com/topic/illuminati-group-designation&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.encyclopedia.com/philosophy-and-religion/christianity/protestant-denominations/illuminati&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Weishaupt" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29302" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10488" RevisionGUID="f8462eb4-ef42-48dd-944b-e522cd4bf1a6" CreationDate="2022-08-27T04:54:10.450" UserId="7755" Comment="added 73 characters in body" Text="**15th century**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Illuminati is based upon fact. The word dates back to the fifteenth century and simply means &quot;enlightened&quot;. The designation was applied to various groups and people who claimed to be enlightened.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Britannica encyclopedia][1]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; illuminati, designation in use from the 15th century, assumed by or applied to various groups of persons who claimed to be unusually enlightened. The word is the plural of the Latin illuminatus (“revealed” or “enlightened”).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Italy, Spain, France**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The origins of the earliest illuminati probably lie in Italy during the 1400s, before spreading to France via Spain.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Encyclopedia.com][2]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The term was used in Spain about the end of the fifteenth century, but probably originated from an Italian Gnostic source. All kinds of people, many of them charlatans, claimed to belong to the Illuminati. In Spain those who assumed the label had to face the rigor of the Inquisition, and many of them moved to France as refugees in the early seventeenth century.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Aluminados**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, this group were &quot;not quite&quot; known as the illuminati, but the [aluminados][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Britannica encycopedia][1]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Spanish historian Marcelino Menéndez y Pelayo first finds the name about 1492 (in the form aluminados, 1498) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Bavarian Illuminati**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On May Day 1776 another group of the same name was formed by [Adam Weishaupt][4]. However this group was banned by an edict of the Bavarian government in 1785, and no evidence that it continued in secret can be found, though there are conspiracy theorists that adhere to the thesis that the illuminati survived by going underground, and possibly even that the origins of the illuminati predate the fifteenth century word itself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Britannica encycopedia][1]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The movement suffered from internal dissension and was ultimately banned by an edict of the Bavarian government in 1785. Some members were imprisoned, while others were driven from their homes. Weishaupt was stripped of his chair at Ingolstadt and banished from Bavaria. After 1785 the historical record contains no further activities of Weishaupt’s illuminati, but the order figured prominently in conspiracy theories for centuries after its disbanding. It was credited with activities ranging from the instigation of the French Revolution to the assassination of U.S. Pres. John F. Kennedy, and the notion of an all-knowing cabal of ancient masters remained a powerful image in the popular consciousness into the 21st century.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;****&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One conspiracy theory posits that the Illuminati instigated the French revolution. If there is any truth in this, it is quite simply a case of illuminist ideas being picked up on by occultists in France. This is not to say that the occultists are a part of the same organisation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Encycopedia.com][2]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; However, illuminist ideas spread to occultists in France and helped in building support for the French Revolution.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Other Illuminati**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The title Illuminati was later given to French Martinists&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Encyclopedia.com][2]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The title Illuminati was later given to the French Martinists, followers of the French mystic Louis Claude de St. Martin (1743-1803), known as &quot;le philosophe inconno.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Final answer**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The source for the original Illuminati and its branches in different languages is in the dictionary dating back to the fifteenth century. Out of all the different groups that have used the title, the group that conspiracy theorists mostly use to draw upon is Adam Weishaupt's Bavarian Illuminati. Whilst there have been groups using the title dating back to the 1400s, and groups that formed after the disbandment of the Bavarian Illuminati, the notion that the Bavarian Illuminati predates the fifteenth century word itself, or has survived in secret, is mostly thought to be a conspiracy theory with no supporting evidence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.britannica.com/topic/illuminati-group-designation&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.encyclopedia.com/philosophy-and-religion/christianity/protestant-denominations/illuminati&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alumbrados&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Weishaupt" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29304" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10490" RevisionGUID="ad604dd8-c41c-4500-b1e8-599c753dba24" CreationDate="2022-08-28T18:52:52.850" UserId="9516" Text="I'm in the process of reading it and was inspired to do so from a love of folklore and material for fairytales.  Tolkien, among others, read the work and from a creative literary and writing standpoint, it promises yj be rich.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I noticed right away the discussion on authoritarian governments, democracy and tribalism.  That startled me since I realized this was more complex than a scholarly anthology of folktales and their origins and elements.  As a product of the British Empire, I could sense a great deal of pride in his approach.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like many of the 19th century writers, modern  genetics, advanced leaps in biochemistry, physics, geology and biology would leave them open mouthed today. Not having the benefit of understanding industrialized warfare as in WW1&amp; 2, nuclear weapons and unchecked dictatorships, I often wonder how much these writers would alter their works.  Knowing this fact and a persistent inability to resurrect the dead ti testify, I enjoy the thought process and attempts to stab at an enormous undertaking.  I also chuckle at the scholars and academics who are so bitter since I have a suspicion that their works would have neither the scope or appeal that reaches so many fiction writers and enthusiasts.  I think they would continue to stay in the ivory tower where they are of little popular appeal and ultimately forgotten, let alone provide creative inspiration. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29306" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10491" RevisionGUID="71d57d44-7a28-488d-9208-2ff0706f2bba" CreationDate="2022-08-29T15:29:04.930" UserId="7755" Text="The answer would appear to be no, there is no surviving folklore that is known or reasonably hypothesised to derive from the culture of the Picts. Apparently stone slabs from Pictish building projects is pretty much the only original material left from the Picts. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[World history encyclopedia][1]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These carved stone slabs are the only record the Picts left of their history; the rest of their story is told by later Roman, Scottish, and English writers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.worldhistory.org/picts/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29315" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3114" RevisionGUID="8fb383d6-c88c-43b4-b816-da288d43a080" CreationDate="2022-09-01T15:06:00.680" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="29318" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10495" RevisionGUID="ee58d8eb-4056-45b5-ae90-23819033510f" CreationDate="2022-09-01T15:46:46.467" UserId="9528" Text="Old Sumerian cuneiforms report that the Annunaki said the earth was created from a large chunk of the remains of a larger planet that that was destroyed when it collided with another larger denser planet. Thus, the large planet that bore earth was sacrificed so our earth could be born. In ancient times the planets were given the names of gods and the asteroid belt that was created from the smaller pieces resulting from the collision, was called the golden bracelet. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29322" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10496" RevisionGUID="96ef149c-343d-4f2c-bf8d-13e8092be59b" CreationDate="2022-09-02T08:45:12.743" UserId="9531" Text="Latvian forest mother (meža māte) has some control over animals. I found a folk song:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jāņu nakti, bāleliņi,&#xD;&#xA;Nejājiet pieguļā:&#xD;&#xA;Meža māte suņus sauca,&#xD;&#xA;Rīdīs jūsu kumeliņus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which roughly translates to:&#xD;&#xA;Midsummer's night, brothers,&#xD;&#xA;Do not ride to pastures:&#xD;&#xA;The forest mother called the dogs,&#xD;&#xA;Will lick your foals." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29324" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10496" RevisionGUID="0214e55c-8206-4a98-b202-d3a34cf32dff" CreationDate="2022-09-02T08:45:41.057" UserId="9531" Comment="added 5 characters in body" Text="Latvian forest mother (meža māte) has some control over animals. I found a folk song:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jāņu nakti, bāleliņi,&#xD;&#xA;Nejājiet pieguļā:&#xD;&#xA;Meža māte suņus sauca,&#xD;&#xA;Rīdīs jūsu kumeliņus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which roughly translates to:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On Midsummer's night, brothers,&#xD;&#xA;Do not ride to pastures:&#xD;&#xA;The forest mother called the dogs,&#xD;&#xA;To attack your foals." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29338" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10500" RevisionGUID="a4fca414-5104-414f-885f-68dc06d83677" CreationDate="2022-09-04T00:38:31.950" UserId="467" Text="Biblical scholars specializing in Daniel identify this &quot;god of fortresses&quot; with Zeus Olympios, who is also being referred to in the surrounding verses. See, e.g., Amy-Jill Levine in The New Oxford Annotated Bible (NRSV)4th ed., annotation to Daniel 11:38. King Antiochus IV, the infamous Hellenizer, in 168 or 167 BCE had basically attempted set up Zeus Olympios as the patron deity of Jerusalem. As part of that, he built an altar to Zeus right atop the traditional altar at the Temple and offered sacrifices on it (1 Macc 1:54, 59). Jews called this the &quot;abomination of desolation,&quot; &quot;desolating sacrilege,&quot; etc. See generally 1 Macc 1:54-61; 2 Macc 6:6-9. As patron deity, Zeus would have been regarded (by Hellenists) as the protector of the city, meaning that he would have presided also over the citadel of Jerusalem (i.e., the fortress). Considering that Antiochus IV was Hellenizing Jerusalem, the good must be Greek, and there is really no alternative to Zeus. The only other deity that Maccabees mentions in this regard (2 Macc 6:7) is Dionysus, but he had no military characteristics. The traditional Greek war god, Ares, is nowhere to be found in the texts, and in any case would still be subordinate to Zeus." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29340" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5857" RevisionGUID="ce300fff-44d2-4eb0-8830-c66a0aee513d" CreationDate="2022-09-04T06:04:55.423" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="29347" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10503" RevisionGUID="1efc5859-873a-4174-bc66-aae9d33f2d94" CreationDate="2022-09-05T13:11:11.687" UserId="9556" Text="... does anyone out there have any idea or original source for this 'Aegeus' myth quoted in the link below?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://greekgodsandgoddesses.net/heroes/aegeus/&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Origins of Aegeus&#xD;&#xA;Titan of the sea, father of Theseus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aegeus was king of Naxos for some time, but when he married Aethra, she became queen instead. He left after she gave birth to Theseus, and when he returned, Aegeus battled Eumolpus for the position of titan king.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aegeus told his people to stop attacking Athens while he was gone, but they did not stop. When Aegeus realized that they would never stop without help, he asked Theseus to go into battle and stop them. Theseus was victorious, and Aegeus resumed his rule.......&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've never come across it and can't find another reference; it seems like a mixture of other more familiar Theseus/Aegeus myths.... I've tried contacting the site without success. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any thoughts? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29349" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10503" RevisionGUID="1efc5859-873a-4174-bc66-aae9d33f2d94" CreationDate="2022-09-05T13:11:11.687" UserId="9556" Text="Aegeus, king of Naxos?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29350" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10503" RevisionGUID="1efc5859-873a-4174-bc66-aae9d33f2d94" CreationDate="2022-09-05T13:11:11.687" UserId="9556" Text="|greek|myth-identification|theseus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29356" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10504" RevisionGUID="30110e77-e282-4c21-ab18-26f693fcc8b9" CreationDate="2022-09-07T14:52:01.563" UserDisplayName="user9563" Text="Zorastrianism and Early Vedic religion ar every similar, scholars even opine that they were one religion and got split into two, or one originated from the other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now in Zorastrianism there are seven Archangels called [Amesha Spenta][1] meaning Holy Immortals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Amesha Spenta in the Gathas      &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gathic name - Approximate meaning       &#xD;&#xA;&gt;                 &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1. Spəṇta Mainyu -  Holy/Creative Spirit/Mentality      &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2. [Vohu] Manah  -  [Good] Purpose      &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 3. Aša [Vahišta]  -  [Best] Truth / Righteousness        &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4. Xšaθra [Vairya]  -  [Desirable] Dominion     &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 5. [Spənta] Armaiti  -  [Holy] Devotion    &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 6. Haurvatāt  -  Wholeness       &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 7. Amərətāt  -  Immortality       &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Given that Zorastrianism is highly similar to early Vedic religion, who are the equivalent of Seven Archangels of Zorastrianism in Vedic Religion?&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amesha_Spenta" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29358" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10504" RevisionGUID="30110e77-e282-4c21-ab18-26f693fcc8b9" CreationDate="2022-09-07T14:52:01.563" UserDisplayName="user9563" Text="Equivalent of Seven Archangels of Zorastrianism in Vedic Religion?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29359" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10504" RevisionGUID="30110e77-e282-4c21-ab18-26f693fcc8b9" CreationDate="2022-09-07T14:52:01.563" UserDisplayName="user9563" Text="|demi-gods|angels|vedic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29360" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10504" RevisionGUID="2a61a4e9-ebe5-4829-953f-1d6005a79cfc" CreationDate="2022-09-07T18:02:42.237" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected spelling &amp; fixed grammar" Text="Zoroastrianism and Early Vedic religion are every similar. Scholars even opine that they were one religion and got split into two, or that one originated from the other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now in Zoroastrianism there are seven Archangels called [Amesha Spenta][1], meaning Holy Immortals.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Amesha Spenta in the Gathas      &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gathic name - Approximate meaning       &#xD;&#xA;&gt;                 &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1. Spəṇta Mainyu -  Holy/Creative Spirit/Mentality      &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 2. [Vohu] Manah  -  [Good] Purpose      &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 3. Aša [Vahišta]  -  [Best] Truth / Righteousness        &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 4. Xšaθra [Vairya]  -  [Desirable] Dominion     &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 5. [Spənta] Armaiti  -  [Holy] Devotion    &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 6. Haurvatāt  -  Wholeness       &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 7. Amərətāt  -  Immortality       &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Given that Zoroastrianism is highly similar to early Vedic religion, who are the equivalent of Seven Archangels of Zoroastrianism in Vedic Religion?&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amesha_Spenta" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29361" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10504" RevisionGUID="2a61a4e9-ebe5-4829-953f-1d6005a79cfc" CreationDate="2022-09-07T18:02:42.237" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected spelling &amp; fixed grammar" Text="Equivalent of Seven Archangels of Zoroastrianism in Vedic Religion?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29362" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10505" RevisionGUID="463c383a-513e-4612-8892-81d27c7f6a9e" CreationDate="2022-09-09T02:51:39.103" UserId="9568" Text="I think Dyonisus, in fact, was never unfaithful to his wife, Ariadne. I mean, he did sleep with others, but only before marrying her, and even meeting her for the first time." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29366" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10507" RevisionGUID="8385c843-b5db-44d4-ab18-17a011c5e296" CreationDate="2022-09-11T17:02:54.567" UserId="7755" Text="**Wild Haggis**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Wild haggis][1] is a fictional creature of Scottish folklore, and according to a study documented in the Guardian newspaper one third of US visitors to Scotland believe the haggis to be a real animal. In fact, according to the Sydney Morning Herald, US tour operators were even selling haggis hunting tours to US citizens that thought they could hunt and catch a haggis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Guardian][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The enduring myth of the haggis still contributes to the Scottish travel trade, according to a poll yesterday that suggested a third of US visitors believe the delicacy to be an animal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Sydney Morning Herald][3]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Almost one in four (23 per cent) of those questioned said they had come to Scotland under the belief they could hunt and catch Scotland's most famous dish.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; US tour operators are even punting haggis hunting tours, which have proved a big hit with Americans eager for the &quot;authentic&quot; Scottish experience.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Picture by Emoscopes][4]&#xD;&#xA;[![Wild haggis][5]][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_haggis&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2003/nov/27/travelnews.travel&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.smh.com.au/national/us-tourists-want-to-hunt-wild-haggis-20031127-gdhv6u.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_haggis#/media/File:Haggis_scoticus.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/7gn5O.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29368" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10507" RevisionGUID="971cff7d-1c75-4a1c-80c5-9578fddf9f04" CreationDate="2022-09-11T17:08:02.377" UserId="7755" Comment="added 293 characters in body" Text="**Wild Haggis**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Wild haggis][1] is a fictional creature of Scottish folklore, and according to a study documented in the Guardian newspaper one third of US visitors to Scotland believe the haggis to be a real animal. In fact, according to the Sydney Morning Herald, US tour operators were even selling haggis hunting tours to US citizens that thought they could hunt and catch a haggis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Guardian][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The enduring myth of the haggis still contributes to the Scottish travel trade, according to a poll yesterday that suggested a third of US visitors believe the delicacy to be an animal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Sydney Morning Herald][3]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Almost one in four (23 per cent) of those questioned said they had come to Scotland under the belief they could hunt and catch Scotland's most famous dish.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; US tour operators are even punting haggis hunting tours, which have proved a big hit with Americans eager for the &quot;authentic&quot; Scottish experience.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Picture by Emoscopes][4]&#xD;&#xA;[![Wild haggis][5]][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Haggis**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For anyone that does not know, a haggis is really a pudding containing sheep's heart, liver and lungs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Wikipedia][6]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Haggis (Scottish Gaelic: taigeis) is a savoury pudding containing sheep's pluck (heart, liver, and lungs),&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_haggis&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2003/nov/27/travelnews.travel&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.smh.com.au/national/us-tourists-want-to-hunt-wild-haggis-20031127-gdhv6u.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_haggis#/media/File:Haggis_scoticus.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/7gn5O.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haggis" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29369" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10507" RevisionGUID="f713a44a-0a74-42c0-bc0b-f042cd835797" CreationDate="2022-09-11T17:31:51.093" UserId="7755" Comment="edited body" Text="**Wild Haggis**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Wild haggis][1] is a fictional creature of Scottish folklore, and according to a study documented in the Guardian newspaper one third of US visitors to Scotland believe the haggis to be a real animal. In fact, according to the Sydney Morning Herald, US tour operators were even selling haggis hunting tours to US tourists that thought they could hunt and catch a haggis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Guardian][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The enduring myth of the haggis still contributes to the Scottish travel trade, according to a poll yesterday that suggested a third of US visitors believe the delicacy to be an animal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Sydney Morning Herald][3]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Almost one in four (23 per cent) of those questioned said they had come to Scotland under the belief they could hunt and catch Scotland's most famous dish.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; US tour operators are even punting haggis hunting tours, which have proved a big hit with Americans eager for the &quot;authentic&quot; Scottish experience.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Picture by Emoscopes][4]&#xD;&#xA;[![Wild haggis][5]][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Haggis**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For anyone that does not know, a haggis is really a pudding containing sheep's heart, liver and lungs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Wikipedia][6]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Haggis (Scottish Gaelic: taigeis) is a savoury pudding containing sheep's pluck (heart, liver, and lungs),&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_haggis&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2003/nov/27/travelnews.travel&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.smh.com.au/national/us-tourists-want-to-hunt-wild-haggis-20031127-gdhv6u.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_haggis#/media/File:Haggis_scoticus.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/7gn5O.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haggis" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29370" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10508" RevisionGUID="143e03d2-6c59-47fa-9561-6764211aaf69" CreationDate="2022-09-11T20:33:49.443" UserId="2682" Text="The source material for this seems to me to be ambiguous and inconclusive.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Popular Conclusion**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Virtually every dictionary and encyclopaedia featuring Aura that I've come across names her simply as the daughter of the Titan Lelantos [Lelantus] by the Oceanid Periboia [Periboea]; and I can see why they would. This is based on Nonnus' *Dionysiaca* 48.245-248, which William Henry Denham Rouse translates&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; as follows, describing Aura as:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a younger Artemis, this daughter of Lelantos; for the father of this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stormfoot girl was ancient Lelantos the Titan, who wedded Periboia, a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; daughter of Oceanos...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Nickname from Her Father**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the original Greek this is rather a bit more lyrical, with the phrases ordered a bit differently into a fairly complex tangle of sobriquets and adjectives. The epithet *Lelantiás* is what has been translated as &quot;daughter of Lelantos&quot;. This is then followed by the elaboration that: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - there was a Titan who was wedded, or betrothed, to Periboia; &#xD;&#xA; - now Periboia had, in turn, been engendered by Okeanos [Oceanus]&#xD;&#xA; - while the aforementioned Titan, who himself was &quot;born of old&quot; (or &quot;born with seniority&quot;), is Lelantos;&#xD;&#xA; - and this Lelantos had engendered the &quot;manlike&quot;, &quot;stormfoot&quot; hunter-maiden Aura, who is akin to Artemis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nonnus uses the word *Lelantiás* for Aura again in Lines 571 &amp; 917 of the same book, both of which instances Rouse interprets as a patronymic rendered as &quot;Lelantos's daughter&quot;. In Line 421 Artemis refers to Aura as &quot;Lelantos's lass/girl {*in the sense of a kid/child*}&quot; and in Line 444 Nemesis unambiguously says that Lelantos is Aura's father.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Nickname from Kybele**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Dionysiaca* Book 1, Nonnus announces (in Lines 27-28) that his epic will at some point feature Aura, whom he goes on to describe as &quot;the desirable boar-slayer *Kybelída*&quot;. Both Rouse and another translator, Douglass Parker,&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; translate this last word as some variation of &quot;daughter of Cybele&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only other instance of this particular form of the word that I've found in Greek is in the same poem (in Line 152 of Book 21) where the Bakkhai [Bacchae], a group of frenzied women in the retinue of Dionysos [Dionysus], are called, according to Rouse's translation, &quot;the army of Cybelid women&quot;, or, in Parker's version, &quot;the Cybelian warriors.&quot; In Line 214 of Book 14 a word which, grammatically, is almost exactly the same, is used for the Titaness Rhea, wherein the reference is translated as &quot;Cybelid Rheia&quot; and &quot;Cybelian Rhea&quot; by Rouse and Parker respectively.      &#xD;&#xA;    &#xD;&#xA;Back again in Book 48, Nonnus refers (in Line 866) to Nikaia [Nicaea], another huntress from the same region as Aura, as Dionysos' *Kybeleída nýmphen*, which Rouse translates as &quot;his own Cybeleïd nymph&quot;. Stanley Lombardo, contributing to the same book containing Parker's rendition of earlier sections of the poem,&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; uses exactly the same words for his version of the term. &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;The same passage later points out that both Aura and Nikaia are Phrygians with whom Dionysos consorted. Nonnus nowhere tells us anything about Nikaia's parentage, but we know from Photius' *Bibliotheca* that this nymph is, as it happens, Kybele's daughter, sired by the Phrygian river Sangarios [Sangarius]. So perhaps this is what Nonnus is alluding to when he says that Nikaia is *Kybeleída*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The word, however, in this form and others previously mentioned, is open to interpretation, and does not literally mean &quot;*daughter of* Kybele.&quot; Rather it is simply &quot;of [belonging to] Kybele,&quot; just as *Lelantiás* means &quot;of Lelantos,&quot; although from context we've seen that in the case of the latter word, Nonnus clearly does mean &quot;offspring of Lelantos&quot; when he uses it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Bakkhai of Book 21 are *Kybelída* because they are adherents of or associated with Kybele on account of the strong connection between this goddess and their god Dionysos, part of whose army they form. And Rhea is &quot;Cybelid&quot; because both in the *Dionysiaca* and in Ancient Greek religion in general, the Titaness and the Phrygian goddess are often equated with each other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**You May Have a Point**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Your guess may well be spot on: Even though &quot;Cybelid&quot; or &quot;Cybelian&quot; could be a matronymic, as Rouse and Parker have interpreted the word in *Dionysiaca* 1, it maybe just means that Aura was from Phrygia, like Kybele, and associated with the rites of this deity's cult. The 10th century AD encyclopaedia called the *Suda* defines *Cybelian* as having to do with precisely such cult rites; with the Titaness Rhea; and/or with the &quot;Kybela mountains of Phrygia, where she used to be worshipped.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most natural reading would appear to be that Nonnus mentions Periboia (who never occurs anywhere else in Greek myth apart from her split-second cameo in *Dionysiaca* 48) in order to fill out Aura's family tree, i.e.: &quot;the huntress was the daughter of the Titan Lelantos; and her mother, by the way, was an Oceanid named Periboia.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But the text never does explicitly say that Lelantos' wife necessarily was Aura's mother. And while the term *Kybelída* is somewhat indeterminate, like *Lelantiás*, it could validly be a parental title, making it so that Periboia was Aura's stepmother, while Kybele was the huntress's biological mother. Taking both of the relevant Aura parentage passages (from Books 1 &amp; 48) into consideration, I think it could go either way.      &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Notes**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. In Nonnos: *Dionysiaca*, with an English Translation by W.H.D. Rouse; Mythological Introduction &amp; Notes by H.J. Rose; &amp; Notes on Text Criticism by L.R. Lind, in Three Volumes, 1940-1942. Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA, &amp; William Heinemann Ltd, London.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. In *Tales of Dionysus: The* Dionysiaca *of Nonnus of Panopolis: A Group Translation*, 2022. University of Michigan Press, USA.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. See previous note.&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29372" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10508" RevisionGUID="8099b6c6-5275-42b2-bcab-df3dd8f59442" CreationDate="2022-09-11T22:50:44.280" UserId="2682" Comment="updated &amp; corrected some details" Text="The source material for this seems to me to be ambiguous and inconclusive.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Popular Conclusion**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With the exception of Theoi.com, and Wikipedia, virtually every dictionary and encyclopaedia featuring Aura that I've come across names her simply as the daughter of the Titan Lelantos [Lelantus] by the Oceanid Periboia [Periboea]; and I can see why they would. This is based on Nonnus' *Dionysiaca* 48.245-248, which William Henry Denham Rouse (1942) translates&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; as follows, describing Aura as:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a younger Artemis, this daughter of Lelantos; for the father of this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; stormfoot girl was ancient Lelantos the Titan, who wedded Periboia, a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; daughter of Oceanos...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Nickname from Her Father**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the original Greek this is rather a bit more lyrical, with the phrases ordered a bit differently into a fairly complex tangle of sobriquets and adjectives. The epithet *Lelantiás* is what has been translated as &quot;daughter of Lelantos&quot;. This is then followed by the elaboration that: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - there was a Titan who was wedded, or betrothed, to Periboia; &#xD;&#xA; - now Periboia had, in turn, been engendered by Okeanos [Oceanus]&#xD;&#xA; - while the aforementioned Titan, who himself was &quot;born of old&quot; (or &quot;born with seniority&quot;), is Lelantos;&#xD;&#xA; - and this Lelantos had engendered the &quot;manlike&quot;, &quot;stormfoot&quot; hunter-maiden Aura, who is akin to Artemis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nonnus uses the word *Lelantiás* for Aura again in Lines 571 &amp; 917 of the same book, both of which instances Rouse interprets as a patronymic rendered as &quot;Lelantos's daughter&quot;. In Line 421 Artemis refers to Aura as &quot;Lelantos's lass/girl {*in the sense of a kid/child*}&quot; and in Line 444 Nemesis unambiguously says that Lelantos is Aura's father.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Nickname from Kybele**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Dionysiaca* 1, Nonnus announces (in Lines 27-28) that his epic will at some point feature Aura, whom he goes on to describe as &quot;the desirable boar-slayer *Kybelída*&quot;. *Tales of Dionysus: The* Dionysiaca *of Nonnus of Panopolis: A Group Translation* (2022),&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; makes this &quot;*Cybele's* daughter&quot; while in Rouse's rendition it is basically the same: &quot;daughter of Cybele&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only other instance of this particular form of the word that I've found in Greek is in the same poem (in Line 152 of Book 21) where the Bakkhai [Bacchae], a group of frenzied women in the retinue of Dionysos [Dionysus], are called, according to Rouse's translation, &quot;the army of Cybelid women&quot;, or, going by the *Tales of Dionysus* version,&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; &quot;the Cybelian warriors.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Line 214 of Book 14 a word which, grammatically, is almost exactly the same, is used for the Titaness Rhea, wherein the reference is translated as &quot;Cybelid Rheia&quot; in Rouse's version, and as &quot;Cybelian Rhea&quot; in *Tales of Dionysus*.&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt;      &#xD;&#xA;    &#xD;&#xA;Back again in Book 48, Nonnus refers (in Line 866) to Nikaia [Nicaea], another huntress from the same region as Aura, as Dionysos' *Kybeleída nýmphen*, which both the *Tales of Dionysus*&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; and Rouse translate as &quot;his own Cybeleïd nymph&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;The same passage later points out that both Aura and Nikaia are Phrygians with whom Dionysos consorted. Nonnus nowhere tells us anything about Nikaia's parentage, but we know from Photius' *Bibliotheca* that this nymph is, as it happens, Kybele's daughter, sired by the Phrygian river Sangarios [Sangarius]. So perhaps this is what Nonnus is alluding to when he says that Nikaia is *Kybeleída*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The word, however, in this form and others previously mentioned, is open to interpretation, and does not literally mean &quot;*daughter of* Kybele.&quot; Rather it is simply &quot;of [belonging to] Kybele,&quot; just as *Lelantiás* means &quot;of Lelantos,&quot; although from context we've seen that in the case of the latter word, Nonnus clearly does mean &quot;offspring of Lelantos&quot; when he uses it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Bakkhai of Book 21 are *Kybelída* because they are adherents of or associated with Kybele on account of the strong connection between this goddess and their god Dionysos, part of whose army they form. And Rhea is &quot;Cybelid&quot; because both in the *Dionysiaca* and in Ancient Greek religion in general, the Titaness and the Phrygian goddess are often equated with each other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**You May Have a Point**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Your guess may well be spot on: Even though &quot;Cybelid&quot; or &quot;Cybelian&quot; could be a matronymic, as *Tales of Dionysus* and W.H.D. Rouse have interpreted the word in *Dionysiaca* 1, it maybe just means that Aura was from Phrygia, like Kybele, and associated with the rites of this deity's cult. The 10th century AD encyclopaedia called the *Suda* defines *Cybelian* as having to do with precisely such cult rites; with the Titaness Rhea; and/or with the &quot;Kybela mountains of Phrygia, where she used to be worshipped.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most natural reading would appear to be that Nonnus mentions Periboia (who never occurs anywhere else in Greek myth apart from her split-second cameo in *Dionysiaca* 48) in order to fill out Aura's family tree, i.e.: &quot;the huntress was the daughter of the Titan Lelantos; and her mother, by the way, was an Oceanid named Periboia.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But the text never does explicitly say that Lelantos' wife necessarily was Aura's mother. And while the term *Kybelída* is somewhat indeterminate, like *Lelantiás*, it could validly be a parental tag, making it so that Periboia was Aura's stepmother, while Kybele was the huntress's biological mother. Taking both of the relevant Aura passages (from Books 1 &amp; 48) into consideration, I think it could go either way.      &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Notes**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. In Nonnos: *Dionysiaca*, with an English Translation by W.H.D. Rouse; Mythological Introduction &amp; Notes by H.J. Rose; &amp; Notes on Text Criticism by L.R. Lind, in Three Volumes, 1940-1942. Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA, &amp; William Heinemann Ltd, London.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. Published by University of Michigan Press, USA; Book 1, pp. 41-64, translated by Douglass Parker.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. Book 21, pp. 346-355, translated by Zachary Puckett.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;4. Book 14, pp. 252-264, translated by Michael B. Lippman.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;5. Book 48, pp. 694-724, translated by Stanley Lombardo.&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29377" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="4772" RevisionGUID="4a955382-f59d-447d-b7d7-f1cf1c346986" CreationDate="2022-09-12T16:11:15.963" UserId="398" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;cmw&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="29380" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3194" RevisionGUID="125895bc-64f9-4832-8f6e-3964a73ec9cd" CreationDate="2022-09-13T23:02:25.187" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="29392" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10512" RevisionGUID="1e559019-a96e-4128-b73a-c529b59b25b4" CreationDate="2022-09-17T19:04:54.850" UserId="9346" Text="The al-mi'rāj is a creature of Persian myth, which resembles a one-horned rabbit. Despite being a Persian myth, most sources seem to have been written in Arabic, hence the Arabic name(s), but what is the creature called in the Persian language?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29394" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10512" RevisionGUID="1e559019-a96e-4128-b73a-c529b59b25b4" CreationDate="2022-09-17T19:04:54.850" UserId="9346" Text="Persian name for the al-mi'rāj (one-horned rabbit)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29395" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10512" RevisionGUID="1e559019-a96e-4128-b73a-c529b59b25b4" CreationDate="2022-09-17T19:04:54.850" UserId="9346" Text="|mythical-creatures|persian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29396" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10513" RevisionGUID="d090321d-fd80-4fa2-9bf6-f86aced8d745" CreationDate="2022-09-22T00:01:01.287" UserId="8896" Text="It's a common belief that angels are incapable of reproduction, if that is so then why is there a story about God castrating the angel Samael, he wouldn't need to if angels cannot procreate.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/amujE.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29398" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10513" RevisionGUID="d090321d-fd80-4fa2-9bf6-f86aced8d745" CreationDate="2022-09-22T00:01:01.287" UserId="8896" Text="If angels cannot reproduce, then why did God castrate the angel Samael?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29399" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10513" RevisionGUID="d090321d-fd80-4fa2-9bf6-f86aced8d745" CreationDate="2022-09-22T00:01:01.287" UserId="8896" Text="|christianity|abrahamic-religions|angels|judaism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29400" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10514" RevisionGUID="56f5c37b-6711-4f42-826d-6591a66f1b2c" CreationDate="2022-09-22T00:16:15.783" UserId="6920" Text="The answer is given in the very quotation you cite:  in that tale, angels can indeed procreate, and have &quot;demonic offspring.&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tales frequently are inconsistent." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29402" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6144" RevisionGUID="bb8d05b1-c1e1-4827-859c-a6382785b398" CreationDate="2022-09-23T04:05:40.533" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="29403" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="10379" RevisionGUID="ad7fedba-87be-4463-90ef-c4c524029ba3" CreationDate="2022-09-24T15:03:25.367" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="29404" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="10378" RevisionGUID="c9004f0b-fbf5-4b6d-9553-e54e1c6b7fcd" CreationDate="2022-09-25T14:07:30.653" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="29413" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10517" RevisionGUID="8aadc922-a302-4427-a4fc-d2f26cd204fc" CreationDate="2022-09-26T16:41:14.420" UserId="9630" Text="In the Grimm Brothers' fairy tale &quot;[Jorinde and Joringel][1]&quot;, the witch who has captured Jorinde and Joringel seems to cast a magic spell, as seen in the following excerpt:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Joringel could neither speak nor move from the spot; the nightingale&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was gone. At last the woman came back, and said in a hollow voice,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Greet thee, Zachiel. If the moon shines on the cage, Zachiel, let him&#xD;&#xA;&gt; loose at once.&quot; Then Joringel was freed. He fell on his knees before&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the woman and begged that she would give him back his Jorinda, but she&#xD;&#xA;&gt; said that he should never have her again, and went away.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm wondering who Zachiel refers to, and why their name is invoked.  It seems like it could be a reference to the archangels [Zadkiel][2] or [Sachiel][3], but I'm then confused why the witch (who is ostensibly evil in this story) is invoking the name of an angel in her magic ritual.  This also seems to appear in the [original German][4]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there an explanation for this? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Grimm%27s_Household_Tales,_Volume_1/Jorinda_and_Joringel&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zadkiel&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sachiel&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://books.google.com/books?id=y9tLAAAAIAAJ&amp;pg=PA369#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29415" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10517" RevisionGUID="8aadc922-a302-4427-a4fc-d2f26cd204fc" CreationDate="2022-09-26T16:41:14.420" UserId="9630" Text="Why does the witch invoke &quot;Zachiel&quot; in &quot;Jorinde and Joringel&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29416" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10517" RevisionGUID="8aadc922-a302-4427-a4fc-d2f26cd204fc" CreationDate="2022-09-26T16:41:14.420" UserId="9630" Text="|angels|names|fairy-tales|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29428" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="463" RevisionGUID="fab9641a-0bf1-4d01-8070-109d3493a4e1" CreationDate="2022-10-02T07:37:36.927" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="29451" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10525" RevisionGUID="845d2505-4fb2-42a0-a96c-9474c86e8364" CreationDate="2022-10-07T18:50:35.270" UserId="9667" Text="Zeus was Theseus’s real father. But the parents who raised him called him the son of Poseidon because he was sent to them from a box in the water and the people of that town worshipped Poseidon. They wanted him to be treated well as he was growing up. This is his real father according to Greek mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29455" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10526" RevisionGUID="f0c4853a-ce98-414f-a59c-4720b58da65b" CreationDate="2022-10-08T09:51:51.917" UserId="9671" Text="Then how was Zeus not known by his forefathers? If the meaning is reliance on military alliances his fathers hadn't known, would that be an interpretation the text allows. The God of fortresses, inferring the ability to judge the strength and composition of those alliances to serve his kingdom. I don't know Hebrew, and merely superimposed gods as judges. Combined with the cunning of the anti christ, and the opposition from God to the jews placing their &#xD;&#xA;faith in ungodly alliances e.g. Egypt in contrast to Himself. Self exaltation would naturally lead along this road of misplaced faith, and it's self destructive outcome reaping the inherent judgement.&#xD;&#xA;You are gods (to whom the word of God came), also referring to judges, who cut of from God would die as mere men.   " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29457" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1314" RevisionGUID="e4b3d656-3143-4bbe-9e76-67300cd294ba" CreationDate="2022-10-08T10:33:26.637" UserId="53" Comment="Created wiki" Text="For questions regarding mythology specific to the United States of America.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See also [tag:native-american]" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29458" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1315" RevisionGUID="83ccc9b6-0a4d-4e7f-a0f7-887faddb5a9b" CreationDate="2022-10-08T10:33:26.637" UserId="53" Comment="Created wiki" Text="For myths specific to the USA" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29459" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="458" RevisionGUID="b44b8b40-2dba-4d8c-a119-0617dfc8de95" CreationDate="2022-10-08T10:34:36.003" UserId="53" Comment="Added usa tag reference" Text="For questions about the mythology of the original occupants of North and South America, excluding Europeans and other peoples coming afterwards. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See also [tag:usa] which can be used for later myths." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29460" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="812" RevisionGUID="7d54a27e-ee12-4d8d-9547-908d97f76056" CreationDate="2022-10-08T10:38:01.710" UserId="53" Comment="added 91 characters in body" Text="For questions about the mythology and legends of the Navajo tribe of western North America." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29461" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10527" RevisionGUID="d120a569-4f9a-41e1-8d68-9e63fb0168b2" CreationDate="2022-10-08T10:38:29.750" UserId="53" Text="For myths of the Cherokee native american people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See also [tag:native-american]" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29463" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10527" RevisionGUID="d120a569-4f9a-41e1-8d68-9e63fb0168b2" CreationDate="2022-10-08T10:38:29.750" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29464" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10528" RevisionGUID="00c77c31-ca46-458c-a207-33af5579e13d" CreationDate="2022-10-08T10:38:29.750" UserId="53" Text="For myths of the Cherokee native american people" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29466" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10528" RevisionGUID="00c77c31-ca46-458c-a207-33af5579e13d" CreationDate="2022-10-08T10:38:29.750" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29467" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1316" RevisionGUID="31fbbd72-9c86-419a-8724-256c6aeec6cf" CreationDate="2022-10-08T10:40:42.107" UserId="53" Comment="Created wiki" Text="For myths regarding water.  Also the creatures that live in it where the water, or body of water, is an important component of the myth." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29468" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1317" RevisionGUID="30955248-ed28-42bc-b992-564bdba93cbf" CreationDate="2022-10-08T10:40:42.107" UserId="53" Comment="Created wiki" Text="For myths regarding water and the creatures that live in it." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29469" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10436" RevisionGUID="b84a2a29-1b27-4a37-8ea4-082526506561" CreationDate="2022-10-08T14:09:45.360" UserId="398" Comment="formatting." Text="It is mentioned in the Bible in the book of Daniel, Chapter 11 in verse 38, that the man who is called the little horn (who is to become the &quot;antichrist&quot; as Christians call him) will:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Daniel 11:38 (New International Version (NIV)): &#xD;&#xA;&quot;Instead of them, he will honor a god of fortresses; a god unknown to his ancestors he will honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and costly gifts.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The word translated &quot;fortresses&quot; according to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance (SEC) means:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/nas/maowz.html][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (Stong's #4581):  &#xD;&#xA;Definition:  &#xD;&#xA;place or means of safety, protection, refuge, stronghold  &#xD;&#xA;place of safety, fastness, harbour, stronghold  &#xD;&#xA;refuge (of God) (fig.)  &#xD;&#xA;human protection (fig.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the next verse the same word (Strong's #4581) is used:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Daniel 11:39 (New International Version (NIV)):  &#xD;&#xA;&quot;He will attack the mightiest fortresses with the help of a foreign god and will greatly honor those who acknowledge him. He will make them rulers over many people and will distribute the land at a price.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Englishman's Hebrew Concordance of the Old Testament by George V. Wigram has for Strong's #4581  for Daniel 11:38 &quot;shall he honour the God of *forces:* (marg. *Mauzzim*; or, *munitions*)&quot; and for Daniel 11:39 &quot;in the *most strong* holds (marg. fortresses of *munitions*)&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While that word may mean a fortified place, an acquaintance of mine who has, for decades, been self-taught in the Bible has stated that military power is ostensibly represented by the term fortresses, or forts in the modern vernacular and also that another, more modern meaning and intent of this metaphor &quot;fort&quot;: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;...can also refer to vaults where massive amounts of precious metals, such as gold and silver, precious stones or jewels, and other valuables, including property deeds, are often stored in banks, the largest of which in the world is itself called a fort (Fort Knox).&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've also read that temples can be included as places that stored treasure in ancient times (for example, in ancient Rome and ancient Greek), if that helps. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm curious what god or gods of all the mythologies matches up the most with being a God of Fortresses. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/nas/maowz.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29470" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10529" RevisionGUID="f4f81641-40f4-41be-adc5-bd6b9536aadb" CreationDate="2022-10-10T03:29:12.000" UserId="9676" Text="There is A LOT of symbolism in this image. It represents the whole Esoteric School, always in movement by the wheels, delivering God's message from above YHVH to everyone, even by the sword. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Venite Digni**: Let only the Worthy join the School. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29472" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10530" RevisionGUID="0233bb7e-f554-4568-b946-3d52c28cd410" CreationDate="2022-10-10T19:49:13.790" UserId="188" Text="I was looking for old stories about seven sisters, where the youngest is the most important, and found the English Wikipedia article on [Tian Xian Pei](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tian_Xian_Pei), talking about the daughters of the Jade Emperor, but they don't seem to be referenced as his daughters anywhere else.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Checking the Chinese version of the page shows big differences in the description, [董永与七仙女](https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%91%A3%E6%B0%B8%E4%B8%8E%E4%B8%83%E4%BB%99%E5%A5%B3), such as the first sentence not having a counterpart in the Chinese version,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;English:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The seven daughters of the Jade Emperor travel to the mortal world. The youngest of the seven fairy maidens was in search of her lost weaving equipment&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Chinese, after Google Translate:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Around the Western Han Dynasty, the filial son Dong Yong sold his body to bury his father, and the Zhinv in Heaven was moved by her, so she went down to help Dong Yong privately and married him.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Weaver Girl wove ten pieces of brocade overnight to help Dong Yong repay his debts, reducing the slave period from three years to one hundred days.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; After the enslavement period expired, the couple returned home, thinking they could live a happy life. At this time, the Jade Emperor ordered Zhinu to return to the heavenly court. For Dong Yong, Zhinu had to reluctantly bid farewell to her husband.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Chinese Wikipedia article on the story's first listed adaptation, [天仙配 (黃梅戲電影)](https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%A4%A9%E4%BB%99%E9%85%8D_%28%E9%BB%83%E6%A2%85%E6%88%B2%E9%9B%BB%E5%BD%B1%29), says that it was based off &quot;董永与七仙女&quot; from the &quot;Soushen Ji&quot;. Going through the [Gutenberg copy](https://www.gutenberg.org/files/7260/7260-0.txt), I see one instance of &quot;董永&quot;, but no mention of seven fairies, a.k.a 七仙女.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lastly, the Chinese Wikipedia article on the fairies, [七仙女](https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B8%83%E4%BB%99%E5%A5%B3) also doesn't mention their parentage when the Jade Emperor (玉帝) is mentioned." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29474" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10530" RevisionGUID="0233bb7e-f554-4568-b946-3d52c28cd410" CreationDate="2022-10-10T19:49:13.790" UserId="188" Text="Are the seven fairies of the story of Dong Yong, being the daughters of the Jade Emperor, a modern invention?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29475" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10530" RevisionGUID="0233bb7e-f554-4568-b946-3d52c28cd410" CreationDate="2022-10-10T19:49:13.790" UserId="188" Text="|chinese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29479" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10500" RevisionGUID="23716e66-00a5-4417-be1c-b5461f4044bc" CreationDate="2022-10-11T16:47:31.060" UserId="467" Comment="added 99 characters in body" Text="Biblical scholars specializing in Daniel identify this &quot;god of fortresses&quot; with Zeus Olympios, who is also being referred to in the surrounding verses. See, e.g., Amy-Jill Levine in The New Oxford Annotated Bible (NRSV)4th ed., annotation to Daniel 11:38. King Antiochus IV, the infamous Hellenizer, in 168 or 167 BCE had basically attempted set up Zeus Olympios as the patron deity of Jerusalem. As part of that, he built an altar to Zeus right atop the traditional altar at the Temple and offered sacrifices on it (1 Macc 1:54, 59). Jews called this the &quot;abomination of desolation,&quot; &quot;desolating sacrilege,&quot; etc. See generally 1 Macc 1:54-61; 2 Macc 6:6-9. As patron deity, Zeus would have been regarded (by Hellenists) as the protector of the city, meaning that he would have presided also over the citadel of Jerusalem (i.e., the fortress). Considering that Antiochus IV was Hellenizing Jerusalem, the god must be Greek, and there is really no alternative to Zeus. The only other foreign deity that Maccabees mentions (2 Macc 6:7) is Dionysus, who was a conqueror of some lands, most notably India, but his characteristics don't seem to fit the context here as well as Zeus, who was his superior. The traditional Greek war god, Ares, is nowhere to be found in the texts, and in any case would still be subordinate to Zeus." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29480" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10532" RevisionGUID="636f5b0e-1a71-4cd3-99f2-ec742165ecb8" CreationDate="2022-10-12T08:33:02.387" UserId="9684" Text="The castle in Krull (80s fantasy film) where the Princess is kept prisoner disappears each night or morning (can't remember which) and reappears each day in a completely different, random place. The whole point being it's a race against the clock to rescue her as, if they don't get there in time, they'll never find the castle again." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29490" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6480" RevisionGUID="798206cd-a027-443d-a3e6-88eaacc6e31f" CreationDate="2022-10-12T23:03:50.483" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="29495" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2723" RevisionGUID="ba88dc1f-027c-466a-957a-1cb43ac74a4b" CreationDate="2022-10-13T10:03:55.440" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="29496" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10535" RevisionGUID="6bdade69-d429-4efd-8cb9-907d9bf02551" CreationDate="2022-10-14T05:06:24.387" UserId="9691" Text="It is well known that ancient Greek such as Herodotus thought other culture's gods(e.g. Egyptian) are actually same deity with theirs, just having different name.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, Plutarch said&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Not different gods for different peoples, not non-Greek and Greek,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not southern and northern gods; but just as sun and moon and earth and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sea are common to all men, though they are called by different names&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by different peoples, so of the Reason (Logos) that orders all things,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and of one Providence that also directs powers ordained to serve under&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her for all purposes, have different honours and titles been made&#xD;&#xA;&gt; according to their laws by different nations.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As I quoted above, there are many evidences that shows Greeks thought other gods are same with their gods, and by doing so they syncretized other culture's mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But basically all ancient polytheism were not exclusive, so I believe not only ancient Greece(and Rome), but also other cultures had a discourse used to interpret or attempt to understand the mythology of other cultures by using their own mythology, so-called &quot;interpretatio graeca&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know that there is &quot;Interpretatio germanica&quot;, but it seems it was not a dominant practice compare to Greeks'.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Q1. Why is this phenomenon prominent (or 'seems to prominent') only in Greece among other polytheistic countries? For example, why we can't find such records (or 'can find only few evidences') in ancient Hinduism?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Q2. Who first used 《term》 'interpretatio Graeca'? I believe that term was coined quite recently, but I'm not sure.**" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29498" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10535" RevisionGUID="6bdade69-d429-4efd-8cb9-907d9bf02551" CreationDate="2022-10-14T05:06:24.387" UserId="9691" Text="Why &quot;Interpretatio Graeca&quot; is that famous?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29499" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10535" RevisionGUID="6bdade69-d429-4efd-8cb9-907d9bf02551" CreationDate="2022-10-14T05:06:24.387" UserId="9691" Text="|greek|comparative|hindu|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29500" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10535" RevisionGUID="81933178-9f4d-4fd3-8804-d1cf07da9083" CreationDate="2022-10-14T14:20:25.567" UserId="9691" Comment="added 403 characters in body; edited title" Text="It is well known that ancient Greeks such as Herodotus thought other culture's gods (e.g. Egyptian) are actually same deities as theirs, just having different names.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, Plutarch said&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Not different gods for different peoples, not non-Greek and Greek,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not southern and northern gods; but just as sun and moon and earth and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sea are common to all men, though they are called by different names&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by different peoples, so of the Reason (Logos) that orders all things,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and of one Providence that also directs powers ordained to serve under&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her for all purposes, have different honours and titles been made&#xD;&#xA;&gt; according to their laws by different nations.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As I quoted above, there are many evidences that shows Greeks thought other gods are same as their gods, and by doing so they syncretized other culture's mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But basically, all ancient polytheism was not exclusive, so I believe not only ancient Greece (and Rome), but also other cultures had a discourse used to interpret or attempt to understand the mythology of other cultures by using their own mythology, so-called &quot;interpretatio graeca&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know that there is &quot;Interpretatio germanica&quot;, but it seems it was not a dominant practice compared to the Greeks'(and Roman's). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Simek emphasizes the paucity of evidence for a widespread interpretatio germanica, as opposed to the well-attested opposite interpretatio romana, and notes that comparison with Roman gods is insufficient to reconstruct ancient Germanic gods, or equate them definitively with those of later Norse mythology.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Q1. Why is this phenomenon prominent (or 'seems too prominent') only in Greece among other polytheistic countries? For example, why we can't find such records (or 'can find only few evidences') in ancient Hinduism?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Q2. Who first used 《term》 'interpretatio Graeca'? I believe that term was coined quite recently, but I'm not sure.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretatio_germanica" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29501" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10535" RevisionGUID="81933178-9f4d-4fd3-8804-d1cf07da9083" CreationDate="2022-10-14T14:20:25.567" UserId="9691" Comment="added 403 characters in body; edited title" Text="Why is syncretism mostly described through an &quot;interpretatio graeca&quot;, rather than any other polytheism?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29502" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10535" RevisionGUID="3c3c4e47-b1fb-4d49-826c-3a2d5d69f1fd" CreationDate="2022-10-14T14:22:56.200" UserId="9691" Comment="added 80 characters in body" Text="It is well known that ancient Greeks such as Herodotus thought other culture's gods (e.g. Egyptian) are actually same deities as theirs, just having different names.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, Plutarch said&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Not different gods for different peoples, not non-Greek and Greek,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not southern and northern gods; but just as sun and moon and earth and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sea are common to all men, though they are called by different names&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by different peoples, so of the Reason (Logos) that orders all things,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and of one Providence that also directs powers ordained to serve under&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her for all purposes, have different honours and titles been made&#xD;&#xA;&gt; according to their laws by different nations.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As I quoted above, there are many evidences that shows Greeks thought other gods are same as their gods, and by doing so they syncretized other culture's mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But basically, all ancient polytheism was not exclusive, so I believe not only ancient Greece (and Rome), but also other cultures had a discourse used to interpret or attempt to understand the mythology of other cultures by using their own mythology, so-called &quot;interpretatio graeca&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know that there is &quot;Interpretatio germanica&quot;, but it seems it was not a dominant practice compared to the Greeks'(and Roman's). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Simek emphasizes the paucity of evidence for a widespread interpretatio germanica, as opposed to the well-attested opposite interpretatio romana, and notes that comparison with Roman gods is insufficient to reconstruct ancient Germanic gods, or equate them definitively with those of later Norse mythology.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Q1. Why is this phenomenon prominent (or 'seems too prominent') only in Greece among other polytheistic countries? For example, why we can't find such records (or 'can find only few evidences') in ancient Hinduism? Why there is no word such as &quot;interpretatio China&quot;, &quot;interpretatio India&quot;..etc?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Q2. Who first used 《term》 'interpretatio Graeca'? I believe that term was coined quite recently, but I'm not sure.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretatio_germanica" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29503" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10535" RevisionGUID="74081155-2f5e-4a05-8080-48db9b21f99d" CreationDate="2022-10-14T14:25:32.463" UserId="9691" Comment="edited body" Text="It is well known that ancient Greeks such as Herodotus thought other culture's gods (e.g. Egyptian) are actually same deities as theirs, just having different names.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, Plutarch said&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Not different gods for different peoples, not non-Greek and Greek,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not southern and northern gods; but just as sun and moon and earth and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sea are common to all men, though they are called by different names&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by different peoples, so of the Reason (Logos) that orders all things,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and of one Providence that also directs powers ordained to serve under&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her for all purposes, have different honours and titles been made&#xD;&#xA;&gt; according to their laws by different nations.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As I quoted above, there are many evidences that shows Greeks thought other gods are same as their gods, and by doing so they syncretized other culture's mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But basically, all ancient polytheism was not exclusive, so I believe not only ancient Greece (and Rome), but also other cultures had a discourse used to interpret or attempt to understand the mythology of other cultures by using their own mythology, so-called &quot;interpretatio graeca&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know that there is &quot;Interpretatio germanica&quot;, but it seems it was not a dominant practice compared to the Greeks'(and Roman's). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Simek emphasizes the paucity of evidence for a widespread interpretatio germanica, as opposed to the well-attested opposite interpretatio romana, and notes that comparison with Roman gods is insufficient to reconstruct ancient Germanic gods, or equate them definitively with those of later Norse mythology.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Q1. Why is this phenomenon prominent (or 'seems too prominent') only in Greece among other polytheistic countries? For example, why we can't find such records (or 'can find only few evidences') in ancient Hinduism? Why there is no word such as &quot;interpretatio China&quot;, &quot;interpretatio Egypt&quot;..etc?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Q2. Who first used 《term》 'interpretatio Graeca'? I believe that term was coined quite recently, but I'm not sure.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretatio_germanica" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29504" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10535" RevisionGUID="f4d56001-5671-4991-b408-18d449fa46e9" CreationDate="2022-10-14T15:15:12.950" UserId="9691" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body" Text="It is well known that ancient Greeks such as Herodotus thought other culture's gods (e.g. Egyptian) are actually same deities as theirs, just having different names.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, Plutarch said&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Not different gods for different peoples, not non-Greek and Greek,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not southern and northern gods; but just as sun and moon and earth and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sea are common to all men, though they are called by different names&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by different peoples, so of the Reason (Logos) that orders all things,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and of one Providence that also directs powers ordained to serve under&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her for all purposes, have different honours and titles been made&#xD;&#xA;&gt; according to their laws by different nations.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As I quoted above, there are many evidences that shows Greeks thought other gods are same as their gods, and by doing so they syncretized other culture's mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But basically, all ancient polytheism was not exclusive, so I believe not only ancient Greece (and Rome), but also other cultures had a discourse used to interpret or attempt to understand the mythology of other cultures by using their own mythology, so-called &quot;interpretatio OOO&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know that there is &quot;Interpretatio germanica&quot;, but it seems it was not a dominant practice compared to the Greeks'(and Roman's). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Simek emphasizes the paucity of evidence for a widespread interpretatio germanica, as opposed to the well-attested opposite interpretatio romana, and notes that comparison with Roman gods is insufficient to reconstruct ancient Germanic gods, or equate them definitively with those of later Norse mythology.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Q1. Why is this phenomenon prominent (or 'seems too prominent') only in Greece among other polytheistic countries? For example, why we can't find such records (or 'can find only few evidences') in ancient Hinduism? Why there is no word such as &quot;interpretatio China&quot;, &quot;interpretatio Egypt&quot;..etc?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Q2. Who first used 《term》 'interpretatio Graeca'? I believe that term was coined quite recently, but I'm not sure.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretatio_germanica" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29505" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10536" RevisionGUID="d09c17ca-6452-4e23-bcdc-008894d5685b" CreationDate="2022-10-14T21:24:00.870" UserId="8136" Text="Was this deliberate or is it more than we decided upon the correspondence and the Romans did not see them necessarily as the exact same god?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If deliberate, did the Romans want to separate their religion from that of the Greeks" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29507" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10536" RevisionGUID="d09c17ca-6452-4e23-bcdc-008894d5685b" CreationDate="2022-10-14T21:24:00.870" UserId="8136" Text="Besides Apollo, no Roman god shared the name of its Roman version -- why?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29508" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10536" RevisionGUID="d09c17ca-6452-4e23-bcdc-008894d5685b" CreationDate="2022-10-14T21:24:00.870" UserId="8136" Text="|greek|roman|mythohistory|gods|names|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29510" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10535" RevisionGUID="c7f6f579-1221-4b5f-bded-367afa1c01b7" CreationDate="2022-10-15T11:14:42.913" UserId="9691" Comment="deleted 123 characters in body" Text="It is well known that ancient Greeks such as Herodotus thought other culture's gods (e.g. Egyptian) are actually same deities as theirs, just having different names.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, Plutarch said&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Not different gods for different peoples, not non-Greek and Greek,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not southern and northern gods; but just as sun and moon and earth and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sea are common to all men, though they are called by different names&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by different peoples, so of the Reason (Logos) that orders all things,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and of one Providence that also directs powers ordained to serve under&#xD;&#xA;&gt; her for all purposes, have different honours and titles been made&#xD;&#xA;&gt; according to their laws by different nations.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As I quoted above, there are many evidences that shows Greeks thought other gods are same as their gods, and by doing so they syncretized other culture's mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But basically, all ancient polytheism was not exclusive, so I believe not only ancient Greece (and Rome), but also other cultures had a discourse used to interpret or attempt to understand the mythology of other cultures by using their own mythology, so-called &quot;interpretatio OOO&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know that there is &quot;Interpretatio germanica&quot;, but it seems it was not a dominant practice compared to the Greeks'(and Roman's). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Simek emphasizes the paucity of evidence for a widespread interpretatio germanica, as opposed to the well-attested opposite interpretatio romana, and notes that comparison with Roman gods is insufficient to reconstruct ancient Germanic gods, or equate them definitively with those of later Norse mythology.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Q. Why is this phenomenon prominent (or 'seems too prominent') only in Greece among other polytheistic countries? For example, why we can't find such records (or 'can find only few evidences') in ancient Hinduism? Why there is no word such as &quot;interpretatio China&quot;, &quot;interpretatio Egypt&quot;..etc?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretatio_germanica" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29511" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10536" RevisionGUID="ae00985f-f132-43eb-bd8d-4f59826c1df5" CreationDate="2022-10-15T20:59:12.083" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 7 characters in body; edited title" Text="Was this deliberate or is it more than we decided upon the correspondence and the Romans did not see them necessarily as the exact same god?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If deliberate, did the Romans want to separate their religion from the Greeks?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29512" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10536" RevisionGUID="ae00985f-f132-43eb-bd8d-4f59826c1df5" CreationDate="2022-10-15T20:59:12.083" UserId="57" Comment="deleted 7 characters in body; edited title" Text="Besides Apollo, no Roman god shared the name of its Greek version -- why?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29513" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10536" RevisionGUID="2c070bc6-1557-4fcd-aacf-ceea1b48dae2" CreationDate="2022-10-16T19:37:24.723" UserId="7106" Comment="you should be specific" Text="Besides Apollo, no main Roman god shared the name of its Greek version -- why?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29514" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="10536" RevisionGUID="2c070bc6-1557-4fcd-aacf-ceea1b48dae2" CreationDate="2022-10-16T19:37:24.723" Comment="Proposed by 7106 approved by 53 edit id of 1899" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29519" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="1689" RevisionGUID="a0f1a44a-ee1f-4f3a-b687-059ea0a9e375" CreationDate="2022-10-16T20:52:52.453" UserDisplayName="user4244" Comment="Black dog added." Text="|mythical-creatures|folklore|british|black-dog|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29520" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1689" RevisionGUID="a0f1a44a-ee1f-4f3a-b687-059ea0a9e375" CreationDate="2022-10-16T20:52:52.453" Comment="Proposed by 4244 approved by 53 edit id of 1900" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29525" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="7642" RevisionGUID="f96ec55d-79b4-41e4-b634-0885aeb4e836" CreationDate="2022-10-17T08:08:56.477" UserDisplayName="user4244" Comment="Black dog - yes." Text="|folklore|black-dog|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29526" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="7642" RevisionGUID="f96ec55d-79b4-41e4-b634-0885aeb4e836" CreationDate="2022-10-17T08:08:56.477" Comment="Proposed by 4244 approved by 53 edit id of 1901" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29527" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10539" RevisionGUID="8157e07d-fb44-4944-82f5-1201acd54151" CreationDate="2022-10-17T17:21:50.370" UserId="9695" Text="Before the Romans conquered the Greeks, they already had their own pantheon of gods. As they assimilated the greek religion into their own, they found similarities between their gods and the greek gods and ended up associating the greek gods with their own already-established names. Apollo was considered a pretty popular god overall, having been the god of many things (music, arts, plague, the sun, etc), and he was adopted pretty late so there weren't any equivalents to him in the previous Roman religion.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Additional sources: https://ancient-history-blog.mq.edu.au/cityOfRome/ApolloBlog" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29529" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10539" RevisionGUID="5b1d23f7-f752-4ad5-9f83-387cf64fa351" CreationDate="2022-10-17T17:22:19.957" UserId="9695" Comment="added 9 characters in body" Text="Before the Romans conquered the Greeks, they already had their own pantheon of gods. As they assimilated the greek religion into their own, they found similarities between their gods and the greek gods and ended up associating the greek gods with their own already-established names. Apollo was considered a pretty popular god overall, having been the god of many things (music, arts, plague, the sun, etc), and being that he was adopted pretty late, there weren't any equivalents to him in the previous Roman religion.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Additional sources: https://ancient-history-blog.mq.edu.au/cityOfRome/ApolloBlog" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29530" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10539" RevisionGUID="9937b59f-cf1c-4e6e-98a5-e1166615aecf" CreationDate="2022-10-17T17:22:50.497" UserId="9695" Comment="edited body" Text="Before the Romans conquered the Greeks, they already had their own pantheon of gods. As they assimilated the Greek religion into their own, they found similarities between their gods and the Greek gods and ended up associating the greek gods with their own already-established names. Apollo was considered a pretty popular god overall, having been the god of many things (music, arts, plague, the sun, etc), and being that he was adopted pretty late, there weren't any equivalents to him in the previous Roman religion.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Additional sources: https://ancient-history-blog.mq.edu.au/cityOfRome/ApolloBlog" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29531" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10540" RevisionGUID="ce44491f-973b-4aa1-ad07-88a4f24c8f2a" CreationDate="2022-10-18T08:03:28.447" UserId="9694" Text="As a rule of thumb, Christianity demonized all old gods (even the benevolent ones) to give people more incentive to worship only the Christian god and no one else.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The big problem is that basically *every* written evidence of Odin or any other Old Norse god was written *by a Christian monk*, which inherently biases everything we know about Odin. Even the [Edda][1], which is the source of most of our understanding about Old Norse religion, was written by a Christian monk. You have to keep in mind: even if said monk had the goal of documenting this old religion as truthfully as possible (which we don't know, he might have  deliberately changed stories according to his taste or belief), he couldn't possibly risk appearing heretical by casting these non-Christian gods in a too favorable light.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We don't have any contemporary texts that tell us about how Odin was viewed or worshiped before Christianity reached Scandinavia, so we cannot tell how his image changed with the arrival of Christianity. There may be some objects left of that time like carved stones or wood fragments, but that doesn't tell us much about how people thought about the old gods. Yes, there was a runic script, but that was mostly used to commemorate the achievements and lives of real people. Scandinavians simply never had a tradition of writing down anything about their religion and traditions. Even early Christians mostly wrote about the culture of *other people* and not their own. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Maybe [this question][2] can guide you to more information.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edda&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/3320/9694" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29533" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10332" RevisionGUID="d4b0bd86-70bd-47d8-af61-fde60a36ec87" CreationDate="2022-10-18T11:50:09.913" UserId="7106" Comment="added 52 characters in body" Text="Christian symbolism can be found in sources for Irish and Scandinavian mythologies,  as the authors that recorded it were Christian and probably wrote about it centuries later. Was there ever a Christianization of Egyptian myths? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am looking for some sort of text where a common Egyptian tale has some evident elements of Christianity incorporated in it. There is a gap of a few centuries of Christianity in Roman Egypt were that could have happened but maybe it was too short lived?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most sources I could find deal with possible influence of Egyptian myths on Abrahamic religions, but I would like to know if the opposite ever had place. The same question could be asked about Persian and Islam influence on the myths. How did early Christian wrote about Egyptian myths?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29534" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10541" RevisionGUID="82c34d07-6d0f-4767-83c2-f916bd589db4" CreationDate="2022-10-18T20:34:07.287" UserId="9698" Text="I know Czernobog, the Slavic god of darkness, mainly from Neil Gaiman's novel &quot;American Gods&quot;. There is a scene in which Czernobog, Anansi (African spider god and trickster) and Shadow (the son of the Norse god Odin) each move into a motel room. Czernobog gets number seven, Anansi number eight, and Shadow number nine.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the other two, I understand the allusions - a spider has eight legs, and Odin hung on the Yggdrasil tree for nine days and nights. But what about Czernobog and the Seven?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29536" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10541" RevisionGUID="82c34d07-6d0f-4767-83c2-f916bd589db4" CreationDate="2022-10-18T20:34:07.287" UserId="9698" Text="Does Czernobog have anything to do with the number 7?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29537" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10541" RevisionGUID="82c34d07-6d0f-4767-83c2-f916bd589db4" CreationDate="2022-10-18T20:34:07.287" UserId="9698" Text="|slavic|numerology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29538" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10542" RevisionGUID="299d24ed-a834-4e6b-95a6-bf65c3c0f8fa" CreationDate="2022-10-19T18:51:37.427" UserId="9703" Text="My children have norse names due to my and my partner's interest in norse mythology. My oldest child (6) is becoming more and more interested in the origins of his name and about Odin, specifically. Are there any books that would be age appropriate to help him better understand the history here." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29540" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10542" RevisionGUID="299d24ed-a834-4e6b-95a6-bf65c3c0f8fa" CreationDate="2022-10-19T18:51:37.427" UserId="9703" Text="What norse mythology books do you recommend for young children?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29541" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10542" RevisionGUID="299d24ed-a834-4e6b-95a6-bf65c3c0f8fa" CreationDate="2022-10-19T18:51:37.427" UserId="9703" Text="|norse|odin|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29542" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10543" RevisionGUID="9323ec0a-5aa6-422c-b75e-9b7a6b874f67" CreationDate="2022-10-20T00:39:42.163" UserId="6920" Text="I found *D'Aulaires' Book of Norse Myths* quite effective at that age.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29545" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10544" RevisionGUID="ad9e339c-d4e6-4f17-ad92-50ba91818ff9" CreationDate="2022-10-21T00:58:00.140" UserId="9707" Text="&quot;**[The Magnus Chase and the Gods of Asgard][1]**&quot; from Rick Riordan. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;&#xD;&#xA;Magnus Chase has always been a troubled kid. Since his mother's mysterious death, he's lived alone on the streets of Boston, surviving by his wits, keeping one step ahead of the police and the truant officers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One day, he's tracked down by an uncle he barely knows - a man his mother claimed was dangerous. Uncle Randolph tells him an impossible secret: Magnus is the son of a Norse god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Viking myths are true. The gods of Asgard are preparing for war. Trolls, giants and worse monsters are stirring for doomsday. To prevent Ragnarok, Magnus must search the Nine Worlds for a weapon that has been lost for thousands of years.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When an attack by fire giants forces him to choose between his own safety and the lives of hundreds of innocents, Magnus makes a fatal decision.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sometimes, the only way to start a new life is to die...&#xD;&#xA;&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*The author is a ex mythology teacher, he also wrote Percy Jackson.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.amazon.com/-/pt/dp/0241534232/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=magnus%20chase&amp;qid=1666313072&amp;qu=eyJxc2MiOiI0LjAwIiwicXNhIjoiMy42NCIsInFzcCI6IjMuNjEifQ%3D%3D&amp;sr=8-5&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/bfkm9.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29547" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10544" RevisionGUID="6eab1bb6-2f8b-44a2-ae24-489dbd973e24" CreationDate="2022-10-21T01:03:24.613" UserId="9707" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="&quot;**[The Magnus Chase and the Gods of Asgard][1]**&quot; from Rick Riordan. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;&#xD;&#xA;Magnus Chase has always been a troubled kid. Since his mother's mysterious death, he's lived alone on the streets of Boston, surviving by his wits, keeping one step ahead of the police and the truant officers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One day, he's tracked down by an uncle he barely knows - a man his mother claimed was dangerous. Uncle Randolph tells him an impossible secret: Magnus is the son of a Norse god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Viking myths are true. The gods of Asgard are preparing for war. Trolls, giants and worse monsters are stirring for doomsday. To prevent Ragnarok, Magnus must search the Nine Worlds for a weapon that has been lost for thousands of years.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When an attack by fire giants forces him to choose between his own safety and the lives of hundreds of innocents, Magnus makes a fatal decision.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sometimes, the only way to start a new life is to die...&#xD;&#xA;&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*The author is an ex mythology teacher, he also wrote Percy Jackson.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.amazon.com/-/pt/dp/0241534232/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=magnus%20chase&amp;qid=1666313072&amp;qu=eyJxc2MiOiI0LjAwIiwicXNhIjoiMy42NCIsInFzcCI6IjMuNjEifQ%3D%3D&amp;sr=8-5&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/bfkm9.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29550" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10545" RevisionGUID="452cadae-fa9f-46fd-a478-308caf9361c7" CreationDate="2022-10-23T06:16:58.743" UserId="398" Text="Perhaps at a late stage, you might find this, but the majority of our knowledge about Egyptian myths derive from a time well before Christianity was around, let alone popular. Even late writers like Plutarch are writing in a tradition where Christianity is unknown.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason you see hypotheses that Christianity influenced Norse and Irish mythology is that those who preserved the original myths were themselves Christians. Irish monks copying texts lived in a land that had long ago Christianized. For the Norse stuff, it is not even certain that Christianization is as prevalent as once thought. Baldr's death and Ragnarok are actually more likely to be inherent to Norse mythology and not imported from Christianity. As far as I know, there isn't any good evidence to suggest they were Christian outside of fanciful parallelomania.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For some criticisms of the connections, see Lars Lönnroth's *Njáls Saga: A Critical Introduction* p. 161 and thereabouts. In particular, he notes that there is no evidence of Christian Medieval stylistic traits in the sagas, that supposed parallels are merely the adoption of a Christian worldview. But this is patently untenable without concrete evidence." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29552" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10546" RevisionGUID="0d437a38-baaa-4e50-9850-618c9fe3c866" CreationDate="2022-10-24T18:41:43.130" UserId="9714" Text="In the Iliad Achilles is neither invincible nor invulnerable. He is repeatedly said to be the best of the Acheans for his unparallel fighting skills, stamina, physical/mental bravery and physical handsomeness (the latter being also a crucial feature of a Homeric hero), but he can be wounded (and actually is) and theoretically might be defeated. The poem, like every poem (as well as life, for that matter) is full of symbols: the fight with a river shows that it takes nature to stop Achilles, while the duel against Hector wearing Achilles's previous armour suggests a fight of Achilles against himself, the only real human opponent worth of him. Deciding to go back to the battlefield is a suicide, as it means going back into the prophecy of a short-yet-glorious life but this time Achilles consciously chooses not for glory but out of love and respect for Patroclus. In giving his life for love, Achilles soars to a superhuman status (similarly to Alcestis, for instance) which makes him not only the greatest fictional figure of the poem but also a true hero from another galaxy as well as the most passionate of men. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29554" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10547" RevisionGUID="df08096e-bba8-46d8-97dc-1a8ddf5a1113" CreationDate="2022-10-24T19:13:12.537" UserId="9714" Text="Up to a certain stage of his short, painful life, Achilles is motivated chiefly by the desire of Kleos (glory), which motivates others including Diomedes, Ajax the Greater and - to a certain extent - Hector, who states it clearly. In book nine of the Iliad we realise that Achilles, shockingly enough, has come to see that life is more important than glory, which shows the cleverness of the man and well explains his refusal to fight again. In the same, unforgettable scene, we learn that another reason justifies his refusal, his lack of esteem for Agamemnon and thus the impossibility for him to obey: the killing machine has just offered one of the earliest anti-war statements in Western literature. Fabulous. And yet the very best is still to come, as they say: he does go back to the battlefield but no longer for glory, rather, he consciously and calmly accepts his fate - that is stay, fight and very soon die but for love and respect (for Patroclus). This act rockets Achilles up to the special realm of the likes as Alcestis, where no other Iliadic hero can even think of landing. The meeting with Priam completes the shining side of the Homeric portrait of Achilles, easily one of the most multi-faceted, problematic, fascinating fictional figures of ancient Greek epic- 2800 years of analysis of all kind suffice to prove that, I love quoting here Friedrich Schlegel who, in his essay on Greek Poetry, defines the fictional creation of Achilles &quot;a miracle of art&quot; - indeed he is, being a combination of epic/tragic and late cult hero. Unique. Furthermore, he is the true cosmic hero, who like a huge star can carry both splendour and devastation, and a man of superior passions and feelings. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29556" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10547" RevisionGUID="584e706a-d62b-49d6-93e4-953b2df8e447" CreationDate="2022-10-24T19:15:28.173" UserId="9714" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="Up to a certain stage of his short, painful life, Achilles is motivated chiefly by the desire of Kleos (glory), which motivates others including Diomedes, Ajax the Greater and - to a certain extent - Hector, who states it clearly. In book nine of the Iliad we realise that Achilles, shockingly enough, has come to see that life is more important than glory, which shows the cleverness of the man and well explains his refusal to fight again. In the same, unforgettable scene, we learn that another reason justifies his refusal, his lack of esteem for Agamemnon and thus the impossibility for him to obey: the killing machine has just offered one of the earliest anti-war statements in Western literature. Fabulous. And yet the very best is still to come, as they say: he does go back to the battlefield but no longer for glory, rather, he consciously and calmly accepts his fate - that is stay, fight and very soon die but for love and respect (for Patroclus). This act rockets Achilles up to the special realm of the likes as Alcestis, where no other Iliadic hero can even think of landing. The meeting with Priam completes the shining side of the Homeric portrait of Achilles, easily one of the most multi-faceted, problematic, fascinating fictional figures of ancient Greek epic- 2800 years of analysis of all kind suffice to prove that, I love quoting here Friedrich Schlegel who, in his essay on Greek Poetry, defines the fictional creation of Achilles &quot;a miracle of art&quot; - indeed he is, being a combination of epic/tragic and, late,cult hero. Unique. Furthermore, he is the true cosmic hero, who like a huge star can carry both splendour and devastation, and a man of superior passions and feelings. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29557" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10547" RevisionGUID="00956ad5-51ee-4541-8e8f-6408c3cdadb2" CreationDate="2022-10-24T19:17:07.127" UserId="9714" Comment="added 13 characters in body" Text="Up to a certain stage of his short, painful life, Achilles is motivated chiefly by the desire of Kleos (glory), which motivates others including Diomedes, Ajax the Greater and - to a certain extent - Hector, who states it clearly. In book nine of the Iliad we realise that Achilles, shockingly enough, has come to see that life is more important than glory, which shows the cleverness of the man and well explains his refusal to fight again. In the same, unforgettable scene, we learn that another reason justifies his refusal, his lack of esteem for Agamemnon and thus the impossibility for him to obey: the killing machine has just offered one of the earliest anti-war statements in Western literature. Fabulous. And yet the very best is still to come, as they say: he does go back to the battlefield but no longer for glory, rather, he consciously and calmly accepts his fate - that is stay, fight and very soon die but for love and respect (for Patroclus). This act rockets Achilles up to the special realm of the likes as Alcestis, where no other Iliadic hero can even think of landing. The meeting with Priam completes the shining side of the Homeric portrait of Achilles, easily one of the most multi-faceted, problematic, fascinating fictional figures of ancient Greek epic- 2800 years of analysis of all kind suffice to prove that, I love quoting here Friedrich Schlegel who, in his essay on Greek Poetry, defines the fictional creation of Achilles &quot;a miracle of art&quot; - indeed he is, being a combination of epic/tragic and, late, cult hero. Unique. Furthermore, he is the true cosmic hero, who like a hugely radiant star can carries both splendour and devastation, and a man of superior passions and feelings. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29558" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10547" RevisionGUID="53ad1b89-8cec-4193-9faa-6e80c6ad7524" CreationDate="2022-10-24T19:19:01.313" UserId="9714" Comment="added 15 characters in body" Text="Up to a certain stage of his short, painful life, Achilles is motivated chiefly by the desire of Kleos (glory), which motivates others including Diomedes, Ajax the Greater and - to a certain extent - Hector, who states it clearly. In book nine of the Iliad we realise that Achilles, shockingly enough, has come to see that life is more important than glory, which shows the cleverness of the man and well explains his refusal to fight again. In the same, unforgettable scene, we learn that another reason justifies his refusal, his lack of esteem for Agamemnon and thus the impossibility for him to obey: the killing machine has just offered one of the earliest anti-war statements in Western literature. Fabulous. And yet the very best is still to come, as they say: he does go back to the battlefield but no longer for glory, rather, he consciously and calmly accepts his fate - that is stay, fight and very soon die but for love and respect (for Patroclus). This act rockets Achilles up to the special realm of the likes as Alcestis, where no other Iliadic hero can even think of landing. The meeting with Priam completes the shining side of the Homeric portrait of Achilles, easily one of the most multi-faceted, problematic, fascinating fictional figures of ancient Greek epic- 2800 years of analysis of all kind suffice to prove that, I love quoting here Friedrich Schlegel who, in his essay on Greek Poetry, defines the fictional creation of Achilles &quot;a miracle of art&quot; - indeed he is, being a combination of epic/tragic and, late, cult hero. Unique. Furthermore, he is the true cosmic hero, who like a hugely radiant star can carry both splendour and devastation, and finally a man of powerful, genuine passions and feelings. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29566" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6166" RevisionGUID="61594f66-8a45-4af3-a219-3dc9ea11fe11" CreationDate="2022-10-30T22:13:33.103" UserId="3307" Comment="added 545 characters in body" Text="In [*Etymologies*][1] bk. 8 §11 &quot;Gods of the heathens (*De diis gentium*),&quot; p. 185 (PDF p. 199), St. Isidore of Seville writes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;29. By empty stories the pagans attempt to **connect&#xD;&#xA;some of the names of their gods to physical causes**, and&#xD;&#xA;they **interpret these names as involved in the origins of&#xD;&#xA;the elements**. But this has been entirely made up by poets,&#xD;&#xA;with the intention of enhancing their gods with certain&#xD;&#xA;figures of speech, while histories reveal these gods to have&#xD;&#xA;been lost and full of the infamy of shame. Indeed, when&#xD;&#xA;truth leaves off, room for fiction is wide open.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and [*ibid.*][1] bk. 3 § 50 &quot;The standing of stars (*De statu stellarum*)&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;21. […] The Romans […] would&#xD;&#xA;point out the stars in the sky, and say that this one was&#xD;&#xA;Jupiter’s and that one was Mercury’s&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, it seems that the mythological stories and gods came first, and they were only later applied to real physical entities, such as the sun, moon, and planets.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;hr&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Homer, according to St. Thomas Aquinas [*Sentencia De anima* lib. 3 l. 4 n. 5][2] [619],&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;calls the sun the ‘father of men’ because of the part it plays in human procreation; for man is born from man and the sun. And **the sun he calls the ‘father of gods’**, either **following the old view that made gods of the other stars which, the astronomers tell us, are governed somehow by the sun**, or following the view that certain men are divine because generated by solar influence.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://isidore.co/calibre/#panel=book_details&amp;book_id=4516&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://isidore.co/aquinas/DeAnima.htm#34" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29567" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="6496" RevisionGUID="347e3ce9-8c8a-4b61-9602-7d5eea66f783" CreationDate="2022-11-01T15:32:49.660" UserId="398" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;cmw&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="29574" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10552" RevisionGUID="2049c086-4cd9-4dba-ae1e-0ab67da5cec5" CreationDate="2022-11-04T02:14:19.763" UserId="8896" Text="&quot;Kabbalistic writings mention Eisheth is responsible for the creation of the Shedim (type of demon). Eisheth feeds upon the souls of humans, specifically those that have fallen from the virtuous ways of God. Upon devouring them, she would regurgitate these souls back out, distorting and warping them into hideous demons that mirror the sins and darkness these souls once committed on Earth.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is this an actual story or belief in certain Jewish thought?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29576" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10552" RevisionGUID="2049c086-4cd9-4dba-ae1e-0ab67da5cec5" CreationDate="2022-11-04T02:14:19.763" UserId="8896" Text="Is there any stories of Eisheth in Jewish Kabbalah doing this?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29577" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10552" RevisionGUID="2049c086-4cd9-4dba-ae1e-0ab67da5cec5" CreationDate="2022-11-04T02:14:19.763" UserId="8896" Text="|abrahamic-religions|demons|judaism|middle-east|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29578" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10552" RevisionGUID="f5a11bb5-8586-4b78-9f01-b1105c34b4b7" CreationDate="2022-11-04T16:42:45.933" UserId="398" Comment="edited title" Text="Are there any stories of Eisheth in Jewish Kabbalah feeding on souls" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29579" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10553" RevisionGUID="6b998996-2511-42c6-90f3-606ffab64d61" CreationDate="2022-11-06T17:41:20.360" UserId="9746" Text="https://news.sky.com/story/garden-of-eden-in-africa-humanitys-first-home-traced-to-botswana-study-11847991&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to this article the garden was located in Africa ." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29581" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10553" RevisionGUID="5de191d4-76bb-4d3f-8291-622ee41e10a9" CreationDate="2022-11-06T23:35:40.073" UserId="1241" Comment="added 88 characters in body" Text="According to the following article, the garden was located in Africa .&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[**Garden of Eden in Africa: Humanity's first home traced to Botswana**](https://news.sky.com/story/garden-of-eden-in-africa-humanitys-first-home-traced-to-botswana-study-11847991)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29588" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10555" RevisionGUID="02fce164-275d-4b1d-af45-6a7f060dd763" CreationDate="2022-11-08T01:37:20.473" UserId="9748" Text="I recently learned of this theory, or cult, whatever. Basically they claim that many people, in ancient Greek already, believed that Zeus was the one and only God of the entire time and space.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, what's with Zeus' father, brothers, and other gods of his equal?&#xD;&#xA;The answers is that Zeus willed all of them into being. He even willed his own birth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That's how they interprete line 463 to 465 of Hesiod's Theogony, that is, Zeus planned/willed everything.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  For he[Kronos] had heard from Earth and starry Sky that, mighty though he was, he was destined to be overpowered by a child of his, **through the plans of great Zeus**.&#xD;&#xA;(translation from Loeb Classical Library)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To me, such interpretation doesn't sound like the only one or the most plausible one. To me, these lines sound more like a prophecy that Kronos was destined to be overpowered by Zeus' plans in the *future*, than a statement that Zeus planned Kronos' demise then, before he was even born.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first few lines of the Theogony also, according to *them*, describe Zeus as omnipotent (ἐρισθενέος Κρονίωνος). But, according to Loeb, and all my dictionaries ἐρισθεν- means &quot;mighty&quot; or &quot;very mighty&quot; instead of almighty. And ἐρι- is only an intensive prefix that means &quot;very&quot; at most. For almighty, one would use παντοκράτωρ.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are more quotes with no reference claiming Zeus is the one, the beginning and the end.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I wikied a little and it says, in Late Antiquity, there are several competing monotheistic cults.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A number of oracles of Apollo from Didyma and Clarus, the so-called &quot;theological oracles&quot;, dated to the 2nd and 3rd century CE, proclaim that there is only one highest god, of whom the gods of polytheistic religions are mere manifestations or servants.[60] 4th century CE Cyprus had, besides Christianity, an apparently monotheistic cult of Dionysus. -- [Monotheism][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So my questions are:&#xD;&#xA;1. Did Hesiod really describe an almighty Zeus who planned everything?&#xD;&#xA;2. How popular was the belief of Zeus being the One among the ancients such as Hesiod, Homer, etc. if any at all, and in Late Antiquity?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotheism" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29590" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10555" RevisionGUID="02fce164-275d-4b1d-af45-6a7f060dd763" CreationDate="2022-11-08T01:37:20.473" UserId="9748" Text="What's with this religion of Zeus being one (and only?) omnipotent God?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29591" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10555" RevisionGUID="02fce164-275d-4b1d-af45-6a7f060dd763" CreationDate="2022-11-08T01:37:20.473" UserId="9748" Text="|greek|theology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29592" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10555" RevisionGUID="c62ff753-f82e-4ac7-88c3-c41b1109e9d0" CreationDate="2022-11-08T01:46:50.500" UserId="9748" Comment="edited title" Text="What's with this religion of Zeus being one and only omnipotent God?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29593" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10555" RevisionGUID="8e0dfcaf-6ce3-416a-9893-fc041b9a47a9" CreationDate="2022-11-08T13:31:01.853" UserId="9748" Comment="added 1172 characters in body" Text="I recently learned of this theory, or cult, whatever. Basically they claim that many people, in ancient Greek already, believed that Zeus was the one and only God of the entire time and space.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, what's with Zeus' father, brothers, and other gods of his equal?&#xD;&#xA;The answers is that Zeus willed all of them into being. He even willed his own birth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That's how they interprete line 463 to 465 of Hesiod's Theogony, that is, Zeus planned/willed everything.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  For he[Kronos] had heard from Earth and starry Sky that, mighty though he was, he was destined to be overpowered by a child of his, **through the plans of great Zeus**.&#xD;&#xA;(translation from Loeb Classical Library)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To me, such interpretation doesn't sound like the only one or the most plausible one. To me, these lines sound more like a prophecy that Kronos was destined to be overpowered by Zeus' plans in the *future*, than a statement that Zeus planned Kronos' demise then, before he was even born.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first few lines of the Theogony also, according to *them*, describe Zeus as omnipotent (ἐρισθενέος Κρονίωνος). But, according to Loeb, and all my dictionaries ἐρισθεν- means &quot;mighty&quot; or &quot;very mighty&quot; instead of almighty. And ἐρι- is only an intensive prefix that means &quot;very&quot; at most. For almighty, one would use παντοκράτωρ.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are more quotes with no reference claiming Zeus is the one, the beginning and the end.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I wikied a little and it says, in Late Antiquity, there are several competing monotheistic cults.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A number of oracles of Apollo from Didyma and Clarus, the so-called &quot;theological oracles&quot;, dated to the 2nd and 3rd century CE, proclaim that there is only one highest god, of whom the gods of polytheistic religions are mere manifestations or servants.[60] 4th century CE Cyprus had, besides Christianity, an apparently monotheistic cult of Dionysus. -- [Monotheism][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So my questions are:&#xD;&#xA;1. Did Hesiod really describe an almighty Zeus who planned everything?&#xD;&#xA;2. How popular was the belief of Zeus being the One among the ancients such as Hesiod, Homer, etc. if any at all, and in Late Antiquity?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;Different translations of line 463~465 (related [question][2]):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **απ' την βουλη του μεγαλου Δια***\&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from the will/plan of the great Zeus*&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Σαν υα προυπηρχε η βουλη του Δια απο την γεννηση του. Η βουλη του Δια ταυτιζεται εδω, με την Μοιρα, στοιχειο αχρονο.\&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *As if the will of Zeus had existed since his birth ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; despite his strength, as the will of great Zeus&#xD;&#xA;decreed. (Norman O. Brown)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; no matter how mighty Cronus was,\&#xD;&#xA;deliberate action by a great god would win out. (C.S. Morrissey)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; powerful though he was, through the designs of great Zeus. (M.L. West)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; That his own child would conquer him, powerful though he was,&#xD;&#xA;And this was bound to happen through the plan of mighty Zeus. (Catherine Schlegel &amp; Henry Weinfield)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that it had been ordained for him,\&#xD;&#xA;for all his great strength,\&#xD;&#xA;to be beaten by his son,\&#xD;&#xA;and through the designs of great Zeus. (Richmond Lattimore)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotheism&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://latin.stackexchange.com/questions/19135/how-to-understand-the-phrase-%CE%94%CE%B9%E1%BD%B8%CF%82-%CE%BC%CE%B5%CE%B3%E1%BD%B1%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%85-%CE%B4%CE%B9%E1%BD%B0-%CE%B2%CE%BF%CF%85%CE%BB%E1%BD%B1%CF%82-from-hesiods-theogony" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29594" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10555" RevisionGUID="3a5f4df2-a46d-47b4-bc9d-7f4cc9bedda5" CreationDate="2022-11-09T01:10:23.293" UserId="9748" Comment="added 40 characters in body" Text="I recently learned of this theory, or cult, whatever. Basically they claim that many people, in ancient Greek already, believed that Zeus was the one and only God of the entire time and space.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, what's with Zeus' father, brothers, and other gods of his equal?&#xD;&#xA;The answers is that Zeus willed all of them into being. He even willed his own birth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That's how they interprete line 463 to 465 of Hesiod's Theogony, that is, Zeus planned/willed everything.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  For he[Kronos] had heard from Earth and starry Sky that, mighty though he was, he was destined to be overpowered by a child of his, **through the plans of great Zeus**.&#xD;&#xA;(translation from Loeb Classical Library)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To me, such interpretation doesn't sound like the only one or the most plausible one. To me, these lines sound more like a prophecy that Kronos was destined to be overpowered by Zeus' plans in the *future*, than a statement that Zeus planned Kronos' demise then, before he was even born.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first few lines of the Theogony also, according to *them*, describe Zeus as omnipotent (ἐρισθενέος Κρονίωνος). But, according to Loeb, and all my dictionaries ἐρισθεν- means &quot;mighty&quot; or &quot;very mighty&quot; instead of almighty. And ἐρι- is only an intensive prefix that means &quot;very&quot; at most. For almighty, one would use παντοκράτωρ.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are more quotes with no reference claiming Zeus is the one, the beginning and the end.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I wikied a little and it says, in Late Antiquity, there are several competing monotheistic cults.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; A number of oracles of Apollo from Didyma and Clarus, the so-called &quot;theological oracles&quot;, dated to the 2nd and 3rd century CE, proclaim that there is only one highest god, of whom the gods of polytheistic religions are mere manifestations or servants.[60] 4th century CE Cyprus had, besides Christianity, an apparently monotheistic cult of Dionysus. -- [Monotheism][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So my questions are:&#xD;&#xA;1. Did Hesiod really describe an almighty Zeus who planned everything?&#xD;&#xA;2. How popular was the belief of Zeus being the One among the ancients such as Hesiod, Homer, etc. if any at all, and in Late Antiquity?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;Different translations of line 463~465 (related [question][2]):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **απ' την βουλη του μεγαλου Δια***\&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from the will/plan of the great Zeus*&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Σαν υα προυπηρχε η βουλη του Δια απο την γεννηση του. Η βουλη του Δια ταυτιζεται εδω, με την Μοιρα, στοιχειο αχρονο.\&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *As if the will of Zeus had existed since his birth ...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; despite his strength, as the will of great Zeus&#xD;&#xA;decreed. (Norman O. Brown) [in a footnote among the omitted lines]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; no matter how mighty Cronus was,\&#xD;&#xA;deliberate action by a great god would win out. (C.S. Morrissey)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; powerful though he was, through the designs of great Zeus. (M.L. West)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; That his own child would conquer him, powerful though he was,&#xD;&#xA;And this was bound to happen through the plan of mighty Zeus. (Catherine Schlegel &amp; Henry Weinfield)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that it had been ordained for him,\&#xD;&#xA;for all his great strength,\&#xD;&#xA;to be beaten by his son,\&#xD;&#xA;and through the designs of great Zeus. (Richmond Lattimore)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotheism&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://latin.stackexchange.com/questions/19135/how-to-understand-the-phrase-%CE%94%CE%B9%E1%BD%B8%CF%82-%CE%BC%CE%B5%CE%B3%E1%BD%B1%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%85-%CE%B4%CE%B9%E1%BD%B0-%CE%B2%CE%BF%CF%85%CE%BB%E1%BD%B1%CF%82-from-hesiods-theogony" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29599" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10557" RevisionGUID="708b2f86-295c-47bd-881c-e46f478d33e1" CreationDate="2022-11-09T19:05:51.373" UserId="398" Text="Not Zeus per se, but late antique philosophers did advance the idea that all the Greek gods were merely an aspect of one supreme god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a lot of scholarship on this already. If you want a deeper dive, check out:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;* Polymnia Athanassiadi &amp; Michael Frede edd. 1999. *Pagan Monotheism in Late Antiquity*. Cambridge.&#xD;&#xA;* Stephen Mitchell &amp; Peter van Nuffelen edd. 2010. *One God: Pagan Monotheism in the Roman Empire.* Cambridge.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Below is chiefly taken from West 1999, found in the first edited volume I mention above.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What poets like Hesiod and Aeschylus portrayed was not one supreme being, but one supreme king, a god who has won out over his enemies, and whose word the other gods cannot contradict, because he represents justice.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We see some early tendencies toward a monotheistic theology among the Pre-Socratic philosophers, but it's not always easy to differentiate between what is a supreme being and what is a supreme principal. Anaximander's The Infinite, for example, created everything, governed everything, yet doesn't appear to be conscious, so it cannot be a god. Xenophanes seems to be the first, of whom we know, to posit a singular, conscious being instead of all the other gods. Yet Xenophanes' god was distinctly not Zeus; Zeus for Xenophanes was another false god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first philosopher on record to specifically make Zeus the supreme being is Parmenides, who is building on Orphic theologies. He has Zeus &quot;[swallow] the universe&quot;, whereupon &quot;all the immortals became one with him.&quot; Later Orphic writers made the sun the supreme being of the universe and identified it with Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Neo-Platonism also often toyed with monotheism, but like earlier thinkers, their supreme being isn't Zeus. One exception seems to be Damascius, whose interpretation of the Chaldean oracles makes Zeus the supreme intellect, but he's actually in a triadic grouping with Cronus and Rhea.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All of these philosophers though weren't incredibly popular among the masses. If any particular person off the street of Athens ever thought that Zeus was the supreme being in a monotheistic sense, it doesn't show up in the record, when we have numerous statues and public prayers and altars and temples built to a variety of gods down through late antiquity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;---&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as your other questions go, Cairnarvon and I have I think adequately addressed the questions raised therein. Long story short, Hesiod is not a monotheist." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29605" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10560" RevisionGUID="ad01a708-c996-4a33-b229-6e1090514713" CreationDate="2022-11-10T23:48:03.320" UserId="9758" Text="Sigyn is prayed by a lot of pagans as the Goddess of Victory, since her name means &quot;Friend of Victory&quot; ;)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29607" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="7799" RevisionGUID="257ded01-32ef-4ab7-9e50-b5f577c004bb" CreationDate="2022-11-11T00:16:41.060" UserId="398" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;cmw&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="29608" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10561" RevisionGUID="224d94a6-136a-43f4-b726-9fe1c0a78b65" CreationDate="2022-11-11T05:04:44.563" UserId="8896" Text="I found the name of a stone giant in Norse mythology named Hrungnir who was made out of stone. Are they a type of Jotunn or is this a singular instance?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrungnir" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29610" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10561" RevisionGUID="224d94a6-136a-43f4-b726-9fe1c0a78b65" CreationDate="2022-11-11T05:04:44.563" UserId="8896" Text="What are Stone Giants in Norse mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29611" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10561" RevisionGUID="224d94a6-136a-43f4-b726-9fe1c0a78b65" CreationDate="2022-11-11T05:04:44.563" UserId="8896" Text="|norse|giants|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29612" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10562" RevisionGUID="48c56714-957d-4adc-a98e-301111397869" CreationDate="2022-11-12T14:39:48.227" UserId="9761" Text="I am trying to find the story where the first born twin reaches back in and pulls his sibling out at birth. I believe it was a Greek myth, but it could have been from another culture." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29614" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10562" RevisionGUID="48c56714-957d-4adc-a98e-301111397869" CreationDate="2022-11-12T14:39:48.227" UserId="9761" Text="Myth where one twin pulls the other out at birth" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29615" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10562" RevisionGUID="48c56714-957d-4adc-a98e-301111397869" CreationDate="2022-11-12T14:39:48.227" UserId="9761" Text="|myth-identification|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29618" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10563" RevisionGUID="152b3c85-a3da-4915-be85-a63307e78b9a" CreationDate="2022-11-14T12:59:15.643" UserId="7106" Text="You are probably referring to the birth Artemis (Diana for the Romans) and Apollo. Leto gave birth to Artemis, Artemis then helped her mother give birth to Apollo. Here is a quote from *Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 1. 21*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  ... Leto had relations with Zeus, for which she was hounded by Hera all over the earth. She finally reached Delos and gave birth to Artemis, who thereupon helped her deliver Apollon.&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29620" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10564" RevisionGUID="343936d4-e074-4abf-a1f3-a7455b5ea000" CreationDate="2022-11-14T16:24:30.600" UserId="398" Text="It's not Greek, it's actually a Biblical myth. From Genesis 25.26: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; After this, his brother came out, with his hand grasping Esau's heel; so he was named Jacob. Isaac was sixty years old when Rebekah gave birth to them. (NIV translation)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The idea is that the name Jacob and the Hebrew word for ankle are similarly spelled. See [this article](https://www.bibleref.com/Genesis/25/Genesis-25-26.html) for the explanation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The first twin emerged both red and hairy. His name, Esau, somehow describes his hairiness. The second twin is neither red nor hairy, compared to his twin, but he is also named for his first impression on his parents. He comes into the world grabbing his brother's heel. The Hebrew word for heel is 'aqeb, and so this child is named Ya'aqob, or Jacob, literally meaning &quot;he clutches the heel.&quot; Interestingly, though, and also important, Jacob can mean &quot;may God protect or reward,&quot; or—unfortunately for Esau—it can also mean &quot;usurper.&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29622" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10563" RevisionGUID="db9863d7-efb3-444b-9d4f-7151c1032cf0" CreationDate="2022-11-14T20:13:14.380" UserId="7106" Comment="deleted 3 characters in body" Text="You are maybe referring to the birth Artemis (Diana for the Romans) and Apollo. Leto gave birth to Artemis, Artemis then helped her mother give birth to Apollo. Here is a quote from *Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 1. 21*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  ... Leto had relations with Zeus, for which she was hounded by Hera all over the earth. She finally reached Delos and gave birth to Artemis, who thereupon helped her deliver Apollon.&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29624" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="10466" RevisionGUID="40b1f227-6eb1-4035-b8ae-d1d1e3e005d3" CreationDate="2022-11-17T09:00:05.177" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="29626" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10563" RevisionGUID="ef2ff4c1-1ca6-4664-ae89-67b3470638d8" CreationDate="2022-11-18T16:07:36.147" UserId="7106" Comment="added 20 characters in body" Text="If it is indeed Greek, you may be referring to the birth Artemis (Diana for the Romans) and Apollo. Leto gave birth to Artemis, Artemis then helped her mother give birth to Apollo. Here is a quote from *Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 1. 21*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  ... Leto had relations with Zeus, for which she was hounded by Hera all over the earth. She finally reached Delos and gave birth to Artemis, who thereupon helped her deliver Apollon.&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29628" PostHistoryTypeId="12" PostId="10564" RevisionGUID="64c68036-1e50-41e0-891a-ebeaf8167cb5" CreationDate="2022-11-21T16:43:59.850" UserId="398" Comment="via Vote" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;cmw&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="29629" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10565" RevisionGUID="abd69013-8333-4029-89f1-f37af15e4538" CreationDate="2022-11-21T19:00:42.573" UserId="9783" Text="Utnapishtim was the patriarch who survived the flood which included the sinking of his (is)land. After serving as king for many years and establishing great cities, he returned to the place of his homeland where he and his wife lived on a small island (a remnant of the island that sank during the flood. Utnapishtim and his wife had been given the gift of immortality from the gods, and as the epic states, Gilgamesh went in search of the knowledge that would permit him to become immortal. Gilgamesh found Utnapishtim and his wife, and learned of a plant (possibly a type of kelp) that would give him long life. Did Gilgamesh &quot;see the deep&quot; place, now beneath the sea, where Utnapishtim and the gods had once lived? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29631" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10565" RevisionGUID="ded054e1-4384-4a97-aac8-87e8a656ea72" CreationDate="2022-11-21T19:01:29.787" UserId="9783" Comment="added 15 characters in body" Text="Utnapishtim was the patriarch who survived the flood which included the sinking of his (is)land. After serving as king for many years and establishing great cities in Mesopotamia, he returned to the place of his homeland where he and his wife lived on a small island (a remnant of the island that sank during the flood. Utnapishtim and his wife had been given the gift of immortality from the gods, and as the epic states, Gilgamesh went in search of the knowledge that would permit him to become immortal. Gilgamesh found Utnapishtim and his wife, and learned of a plant (possibly a type of kelp) that would give him long life. Did Gilgamesh &quot;see the deep&quot; place, now beneath the sea, where Utnapishtim and the gods had once lived? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29632" PostHistoryTypeId="13" PostId="10564" RevisionGUID="f579ce81-3ce8-44b6-a976-7853841dd3dc" CreationDate="2022-11-21T20:45:09.320" UserId="398" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;cmw&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="29633" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10564" RevisionGUID="0d38d55c-fa50-4e60-b9db-7cee03428f80" CreationDate="2022-11-21T20:45:59.227" UserId="398" Comment="added 27 characters in body" Text="Might you have it backwards? There's the Biblical myth of Jacob and Esau. From Genesis 25.26: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; After this, his brother came out, with his hand grasping Esau's heel; so he was named Jacob. Isaac was sixty years old when Rebekah gave birth to them. (NIV translation)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The idea is that the name Jacob and the Hebrew word for ankle are similarly spelled. See [this article](https://www.bibleref.com/Genesis/25/Genesis-25-26.html) for the explanation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The first twin emerged both red and hairy. His name, Esau, somehow describes his hairiness. The second twin is neither red nor hairy, compared to his twin, but he is also named for his first impression on his parents. He comes into the world grabbing his brother's heel. The Hebrew word for heel is 'aqeb, and so this child is named Ya'aqob, or Jacob, literally meaning &quot;he clutches the heel.&quot; Interestingly, though, and also important, Jacob can mean &quot;may God protect or reward,&quot; or—unfortunately for Esau—it can also mean &quot;usurper.&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29634" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="1017" RevisionGUID="39fd7df3-a144-447b-9b5a-31ee40d633a9" CreationDate="2022-11-21T20:46:49.360" UserId="398" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;cmw&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="29635" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1385" RevisionGUID="8c417047-977e-44f9-81bf-c2e19ad12d48" CreationDate="2022-11-22T01:07:20.900" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="29636" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="10332" RevisionGUID="5cf7c0b9-9d26-4a89-b514-a85d09334190" CreationDate="2022-11-22T07:02:20.277" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="29644" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10567" RevisionGUID="5aa829fe-46ed-4444-ba69-df93ca73249f" CreationDate="2022-11-26T06:12:14.323" UserId="9793" Text="The &quot;story&quot; is that the Danes did not want to put their dead into the ground first, so they would take the leg of the horse and throw it in the hole first. An offering? To appease some otherworldy debt? The horse would then be useless, so it would be sacrificed. Helhest (and other pale horses associated with death like Mari Lywd) is what became the &quot;pale horse&quot; in Christian culture. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29646" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10568" RevisionGUID="aa012634-960c-4c3c-bd36-5e3ab57c0799" CreationDate="2022-11-26T23:38:18.590" UserDisplayName="user4244" Text="In the folklore of northern and eastern Finland, the firefox (tuliko, tulikettu, or tulirepo) is a fox with a tail that twinkles fire. Hunters are said to dream of the firefox, and the northern lights can be called &quot;fox fires&quot; (revontulet) after it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there only a single firefox, as with the phoenix?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29648" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10568" RevisionGUID="aa012634-960c-4c3c-bd36-5e3ab57c0799" CreationDate="2022-11-26T23:38:18.590" UserDisplayName="user4244" Text="In Finnish folklore is there a single firefox or many?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29649" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10568" RevisionGUID="aa012634-960c-4c3c-bd36-5e3ab57c0799" CreationDate="2022-11-26T23:38:18.590" UserDisplayName="user4244" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29650" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="10292" RevisionGUID="5ff32abb-f63a-414b-9042-22add655e9ff" CreationDate="2022-11-27T12:07:45.913" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="29656" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10569" RevisionGUID="b08f6892-8fde-448e-ae81-ade4ca7e3d8e" CreationDate="2022-11-30T00:10:52.487" UserId="9802" Text="Centaurs are typically only depicted as male. I remember reading something about centaurs reproducing with human women. There's also a vague memory I have of reading that centaurs can mate with horses. On the other hand, there are some depictions of female centaurs, which seems confusing&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Which species do centaurs mate with to produce more centaurs: Is it humans, horses, other centaurs, or some combination of the previous?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29658" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10569" RevisionGUID="b08f6892-8fde-448e-ae81-ade4ca7e3d8e" CreationDate="2022-11-30T00:10:52.487" UserId="9802" Text="What species were new centaurs born from?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29659" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10569" RevisionGUID="b08f6892-8fde-448e-ae81-ade4ca7e3d8e" CreationDate="2022-11-30T00:10:52.487" UserId="9802" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29662" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10570" RevisionGUID="7d0dbfcf-f181-4345-a502-cc2711697f1e" CreationDate="2022-12-04T09:18:19.150" UserId="9807" Text="Very interesting question. Whether you can be reborn as a god in Hinduism is debatable, and many people have different opinions. But as per the scriptures, it is possible. According to one of the most revered texts of Sanatana philosophy, Srimad Bhagavatam, the positions of gods of the heavenly kingdom, known as Amravati, can be attained by anyone, given that he should fulfill some criteria. For example, Indra, the god of thunder and rain, is not the name of a god but is a position. And one can attain the position by performing one hundred rajsuya yajnas (horse sacrifices). When a person completes 100 successful horse sacrifices in his lifetime, in next, he will be born as Indra, the king of the heavens. The position of a god cannot be attained in the same lifetime, one has to complete his duties of the present life, and in the next, he will move to the next life according to his pious credits.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hope this answers your question :) " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29668" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10572" RevisionGUID="af509f2a-bb9c-47ac-8c18-5ab946f7b578" CreationDate="2022-12-04T15:11:44.670" UserId="9807" Text="Some say there are 33 gods, while some say there are 330 million gods (33 crores or 33 Koti gods; 1 Koti = 1 crore = 10 million). But, *koti* in Sanskrit also means prime importance or supreme/central figures. The sloka of Brihadaranyaka Upnishada mentions that there are 33 koti gods. Some interpreted it as 330 million while it was 33 supreme gods. But, to exactly say what the number of gods is, maybe controversial; we get different figures in different places. But it is widely accepted that there are three main deities in Hinduism, Brahma, the creator; Vishnu, the maintainer; and Shiva, the destroyer. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29671" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10573" RevisionGUID="2d7f0b57-60b3-4787-a913-a00bfe7abb02" CreationDate="2022-12-06T03:16:35.190" UserId="9815" Text="Boars have been revered and worshiped by many cultures and regions throughout history. In ancient Greece, the wild boar was associated with the goddess Artemis, who was often depicted with a boar at her side. In Japanese mythology, the boar is associated with the Shinto god Inari, who is the patron of agriculture, fertility, and prosperity. In Celtic mythology, the boar was associated with the warrior god Moccus. Additionally, boars have been revered by many indigenous cultures around the world, including some Native American tribes and Pacific Island cultures." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29674" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10574" RevisionGUID="edfd4f07-419e-4a5e-adb6-b20321c09793" CreationDate="2022-12-06T08:21:37.507" UserId="4316" Text="In [this article][1], we can see that Threstals were inspired from Horses.&#xD;&#xA;Let me copy the paragraph where it is highlighted.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.wizardingworld.com/writing-by-jk-rowling/thestrals&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; While somewhat intimidating in appearance, these carnivorous horses are emblematic of a journey to another dimension, and reward all who trust them with faithfulness and obedience. Thestrals are native to the British Isles and Ireland, though they have been spotted in parts of France and the Iberian Peninsula; they seem to have an association with wizards who descend from the horse-loving Celtic peoples. Other parts of the world have their own equivalent to Thestrals&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29678" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7885" RevisionGUID="e5a2f800-63b1-4c86-bd58-baeb47446d7f" CreationDate="2022-12-08T22:59:44.870" UserId="158" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="Hades is generally believed to have been faithful to Persephone. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story of Minthe (which you mentioned as evidence of infidelity) isn't about Hades's infidelity, it's about his crazy ex-girlfriend. It's a myth specifically about Hades REFUSING to betray Persephone, even in the face of an ex-lover who wants him back.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Mint (Mintha), men say, was once a maid beneath the earth, a Nymphe of Kokytos (Cocytus), and she lay in the bed of Aidoneus [Hades]; but when he kidnapped the maid Persephone from the Aitnaian hill [Mount Etna in Sicily], then she complained loudly with overweening words and raved foolishly for jealousy, and Persephone in anger trampled upon her with her feet and destroyed her. For she had said that she was nobler of form and more excellent in beauty than dark-eyed Persephone and she boasted that **Aidoneus would return to her** and banish the other from his halls : such infatuation leapt upon her tongue. And from the earth spray the weak herb that bears her name.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Basically Hades used to be with Minthe, but when he married Persephone he broke it off. Minthe got pissed and wanted Hades to &quot;return to her,&quot; which necessarily means he was no longer with her, and started shit-talking Persephone, so Persephone kicked her ass and turned her into a plant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of course, Persephone had a few lovers of her own, so Hades's loyalty wasn't reciprocated. But I guess that's what you get for forcing a girl into an arranged marriage with her uncle..." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29680" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10576" RevisionGUID="ff2fdf90-4744-4970-ae45-4285c04f1d19" CreationDate="2022-12-11T00:52:41.817" UserId="9830" Text="Medea, the enchantress, said to Jason, &quot;I could tell you, if I pleased, who was the old woman with the peacock, the pomegranate, and the cuckoo staff, whom you carried over the river; and, likewise, who it is that speaks through the lips of the oaken image, that stands in the prow of your galley.&quot; Me and my friends can't seem to agree on if Medea was slyly telling Jason that she was actually secretly the old woman (who is Hera, the Queen of the gods) and the Oaken Image, or if she was just bragging about how powerful of an enchantress she was. Also at the end of the chapter, after Jason had retrieved the golden fleece, Medea, who had come with Jason to find the Golden Fleece, was not to be seen, but the old woman appeared (She was extremely excited that Jason had found the Golden Fleece) but then she disappeared into the shadows. After that the oaken image on the Argo said, &quot;Make hast, prince Jason. For your life, make haste!&quot; Does that indicate that Medea turned back into the old woman, disappeared, and then went to the ship?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29682" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10576" RevisionGUID="ff2fdf90-4744-4970-ae45-4285c04f1d19" CreationDate="2022-12-11T00:52:41.817" UserId="9830" Text="Is Medea secretly the old woman and the Talking Oaken Image? (In Nathaniel Hawthorne's Tanglewood Tales: The Golden Fleece.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29683" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10576" RevisionGUID="ff2fdf90-4744-4970-ae45-4285c04f1d19" CreationDate="2022-12-11T00:52:41.817" UserId="9830" Text="|hera|medea|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29684" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10577" RevisionGUID="de373b4b-79f6-47ce-ace7-8f5aa419adfd" CreationDate="2022-12-11T01:07:27.380" UserId="2682" Text="**Not Unlike Their Mothers**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Presumably we're talking about Centaurs in their original narrative world of Greco-Roman mythology. In said world, simply, there *are* female Centaurs, often called Centauresses, an English form of *Kentaurídes* [Centaurides], such as they are designated by Philostratus the Elder in his literary work *Eikónes* (Images/ Pictures), also known by the Latin version of its title, *Imagines*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Eikónes/Imagines* 2.3, Philostratus brings up two different ideas for what was commonly thought of as the origin of Centaurs. One is perhaps the most familiar, in which Kentauros [Centaurus], who seems to be a humanoid creature, mates with the mares of Magnesia in Thessaly, who then give birth to these beings who are part human and part horse. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kentauros himself was either a son of the god Apollon [Apollo], or he was engendered by the Phlegyan king Ixion impregnating a cloud that he mistakenly thought was the goddess Hera. Diodorus Siculus and Ovid mention a version of the origin story in which no one mates with any horses, and, for whatever reason, Ixion's lover-cloud happens to give birth to this group of semi-equine creatures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Baby Centaurs in Thessaly**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Philostratus says, however, that there also existed the notion &quot;that the race of Centaurs sprang from trees and rocks&quot;. This appears to be referring, though, to the first generation of these entities, because, moving on to the main point of this section of the *Eikónes*, Centaurs had domestic family life quite similar to that of humans,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after all they have, as we see, mothers of the same stock and wives&#xD;&#xA;&gt; next, and colts as their offspring, and a most delightful home&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;on Mt Pelion near Magnesia, where they lived by the mountain's idyllic caves and springs, with the Centaurides looking as powerful as Amazons on horseback, and being, &quot;if we overlook the horse part of them&quot;, as lovely as the beautiful water-nymphs inhabiting those springs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the *Eikónes*, baby Centaurs, just like human babies, were breastfed by their mothers, and wrapped in swaddling clothes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hylonome and the Deadly Wedding Feast**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although, by and large, Centaurs who appear as actual characters in the mythology's stories are male, there is at least one fully fleshed-out Centauress personage featured in Book 12 of Ovid's *Metamorphoses*, named Hylonome. Together with her husband, the beautiful Centaur Cyllarus, she attended the wedding of Peirithous and Hippodameia, to which the Centaurs were invited as the bridegroom's close relatives. (Depending on the genealogy, Peirithous, being a regular human son of Ixion, was either their half-brother or their uncle). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Being unaccustomed to strong drink, the Centaurs, inflamed by the wine provided thereat, turned aggressive and tried to abduct the bride and other women in attendance. Thus the festivities turned into a bloodbath in which most the Centaurs were slain, including Cyllarus, after which Hylonome threw herself onto the spear that had killed her husband, thereby ending her own life. Going by Philostratus' account, Hylonome would have had the same origin as the rest of her fellow Centaurs and perhaps had given birth to Cyllarus's offspring, who, naturally, would have been of the same sort of creature as their parents.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as the original mythology is concerned, I am not aware of any accounts of Centaurs siring children upon ordinary horses. As aforementioned, Ixion's son Kentauros was a man-shaped entity who begot the *Kentauroi* [Centaurs] upon the mares of Thessaly. He would have been unique in this, and his offspring would then have propagated themselves by mating with one another. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Neither do I know of any instances of Centaurs having children with human women, although some close sexual encounters—generally violent ones—do occur between the two, such as the aforementioned attempted abductions at Hippodameia's wedding; and the event leading to the death of the Centaur Nessos [Nessus], who tried to abduct Deianeira, the wife of Herakles [Hercules].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**(Human?) Daughters of the Divine Centaurs**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The next closest thing to this would be that the immortal Centaur Kheiron [Chiron] was married to a nymph named Khariklo [Chariclo], who bore him a number of daughters and at least one son, but none of these offspring seems to have been a Centaur; or at least there is no explicit description of them being such. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In some versions of her myths, one of these daughters, Endeïs, is the mother of the Argonauts Peleus and Telamon, and grandmother of the Trojan War heroes Akhilleus [Achilles] and Aias [Ajax]. So if she was in some way a Centauress she did not pass her equine traits on to her children and descendants.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kheiron was part horse because he was conceived when his parents, the Titan Kronos [Cronus] and the Oceanid Philyra, had assumed the forms of a stallion and a mare respectively. Kheiron's brother Aphros was a marine type of Centaur which, in place of a horse's hindquarters, had the tail of a fish. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the Jewish writer Cleodemus, Africa was named after a son of Abraham who was called Apheran or Aphra, and who at some point was an ally of Herakles. Aphra had a daughter named Tingē who was married to the giant Libyan king Antaios [Antaeus]. After Herakles killed Antaios, he consorted with the giant's widowed queen Tingē, together with whom he became the ancestor of a line of kings in that part of the continent. The city of Tingis (now Tangier, Morocco) was named after this queen. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If Cleodemus's account records a genuine tradition of Greco-Roman myth, then Aphra would be another version of the Fish-Centaur character Aphros, who, in the more mainstream renditions, is the origin of the name Africa. Identifying these two with each other would make it so that Queen Tingē's father is = this Sea-Centaur. As in the case of Kheiron's children, however, neither does she seem to be any sort of Centaur herself, and her own children and descendants likewise appear to be represented as completely anthropomorphic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Centauresses in Ancient Art**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Tunisia, where Aphros lived as a sea-god, there is a Roman mosaic depicting him in the company of his half-brother Neptune (the Roman version of Poseidon, the King of the Sea). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Bardo Venus + Centauresses][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;Another Roman mosaic here (see above) portrays the goddess Venus (the Roman Aphrodite) being crowned by a pair of Centauresses. (Born in the sea, Venus-Aphrodite appears elsewhere being raised from of the waves by Aphros and another Fish-Centaur.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Taking it back to the central question of the birth of new Centaurs, there is a relief sculpture on a Roman sarcophagus from France depicting Ariadne and the train of the wine-god Dionysos [Dionysus]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Centauress + Foal][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;In the dead centre of the piece (see above) is a Centauress and her little Centaur-foal, engaged in an embrace much like one described by Philostratus in the *Eikónes*. (Check out the full spread of the art piece [here](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f9/Louvre_Dionysus-and-Ariadne_sarcophagus.jpg).)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The First Female Centaur?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the earliest visual portrayals of the Gorgon Medusa (also in relief, but from nearly a thousand years before the sarcophagus mentioned above) depicts her as a Centauress being beheaded by the hero Perseus (see below).  &#xD;&#xA;[![Centauress Medusa + Perseus][3]][3] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The connections with her lover Poseidon are interesting since he is the god of horses, and we also know that, in her death, Medusa gave birth to their son Pegasos [Pegasus], who is a winged horse. In Ovid's *Metamorphoses*, Poseidon takes the form of a bird in order to mate with Medusa, while in a different version (similarly to his father Kronos before him) Poseidon becomes a stallion. Both versions are designed to explain Pegasos' features. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meanwhile, on account of scanty evidence in both literature and art, it is rather somewhat of a mystery what exactly Pegasos' twin brother Khrysaor [Chrysaor] is supposed to have looked like. Lycophron and Nonnus seem to have envisioned him as humanoid, referring to him, respectively, as &quot;man&quot; and &quot;boy&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Theoi.com speculates that he could have been a monstrous winged boar, based on the fact that his son, the triple-bodied giant Geryones, carries a shield bearing such an emblem. It would be kinda cool to think that he was a Centaur, born, as Hesiod describes him, wielding a golden blade, not unlike the one used to slay his mother just before he sprang forth into the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/6wfZn.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/7rECV.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/lcofn.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29686" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10577" RevisionGUID="633e49ea-8c10-4a1f-9f3e-5f2cf0b83068" CreationDate="2022-12-11T03:55:19.907" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; tweaked a detail" Text="**Not Unlike Their Mothers**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Presumably we're talking about Centaurs in their original narrative world of Greco-Roman mythology. In said world, simply, there *are* female Centaurs, often called Centauresses, an English form of *Kentaurídes* [Centaurides], such as they are designated by Philostratus the Elder in his literary work *Eikónes* (Images/ Pictures), also known by the Latin version of its title, *Imagines*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Eikónes/Imagines* 2.3, Philostratus brings up two different ideas for what was commonly thought of as the origin of Centaurs. One is perhaps the most familiar, in which Kentauros [Centaurus], who seems to be a humanoid creature, mates with the mares of Magnesia in Thessaly, who then give birth to these beings who are part human and part horse. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kentauros himself was either a son of the god Apollon [Apollo], or he was engendered by the Phlegyan king Ixion impregnating a cloud that he mistakenly thought was the goddess Hera. Diodorus Siculus and Ovid mention a version of the origin story in which no one mates with any horses, and, for whatever reason, Ixion's lover-cloud just happens to give birth to this group of semi-equine creatures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Baby Centaurs in Thessaly**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Philostratus says, however, that there also existed the notion &quot;that the race of Centaurs sprang from trees and rocks&quot;. This appears to be referring, though, to the first generation of these entities, because, moving on to the main point of this section of the *Eikónes*, Centaurs had domestic family life quite similar to that of humans,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after all they have, as we see, mothers of the same stock and wives&#xD;&#xA;&gt; next, and colts as their offspring, and a most delightful home&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;on Mt Pelion near Magnesia, where they lived by the mountain's idyllic caves and springs, with the Centaurides looking as powerful as Amazons on horseback, and being, &quot;if we overlook the horse part of them&quot;, as lovely as the beautiful water-nymphs inhabiting those springs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the *Eikónes*, baby Centaurs, just like human babies, were breastfed by their mothers, and wrapped in swaddling clothes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hylonome and the Deadly Wedding Feast**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although, by and large, Centaurs who appear as actual characters in the mythology's stories are male, there is at least one fully fleshed-out Centauress personage featured in Book 12 of Ovid's *Metamorphoses*, named Hylonome. Together with her husband, the beautiful Centaur Cyllarus, she attended the wedding of Peirithous and Hippodameia, to which the Centaurs were invited as the bridegroom's close relatives. (Depending on the genealogy, Peirithous, being a regular human son of Ixion, was either their half-brother or their uncle). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Being unaccustomed to strong drink, the Centaurs, inflamed by the wine provided thereat, turned aggressive and tried to abduct the bride and other women in attendance. Thus the festivities turned into a bloodbath in which most the Centaurs were slain, including Cyllarus, after which Hylonome threw herself onto the spear that had killed her husband, thereby ending her own life. Going by Philostratus' account, Hylonome would have had the same origin as the rest of her fellow Centaurs and perhaps had given birth to Cyllarus's offspring, who, naturally, would have been the same sort of creature as their parents.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as the original mythology is concerned, I am not aware of any accounts of Centaurs siring offspring upon ordinary horses. As aforementioned, Ixion's son Kentauros was a man-shaped entity who begot the *Kentauroi* [Centaurs] upon the mares of Thessaly. He would have been unique in this, and his offspring would then have propagated themselves by mating with one another. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Neither do I know of any instances of Centaurs having children with human women, although some close sexual encounters—generally violent ones—do occur between the two, such as the aforementioned attempted abductions at Hippodameia's wedding; and the event leading to the death of the Centaur Nessos [Nessus], who tried to abduct Deianeira, the wife of Herakles [Hercules].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**(Human?) Daughters of the Divine Centaurs**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The next closest thing to this would be that the immortal Centaur Kheiron [Chiron] was married to a nymph named Khariklo [Chariclo], who bore him a number of daughters and at least one son, but none of these offspring seems to have been a Centaur; or at least there is no explicit description of them being such. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In some versions of her myths, one of these daughters, Endeïs, is the mother of the Argonauts Peleus and Telamon, and grandmother of the Trojan War heroes Akhilleus [Achilles] and Aias [Ajax]. So if she was in some way a Centauress she did not pass her equine traits on to her children and descendants.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kheiron was part horse because he was conceived when his parents, the Titan Kronos [Cronus] and the Oceanid Philyra, had assumed the forms of a stallion and a mare respectively. Kheiron's brother Aphros was a marine type of Centaur which, in place of a horse's hindquarters, had the tail of a fish. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the Jewish writer Cleodemus, Africa was named after a son of Abraham who was called Apheran or Aphra, and who at some point was an ally of Herakles. Aphra had a daughter named Tingē who was married to the giant Libyan king Antaios [Antaeus]. After Herakles killed Antaios, he consorted with the giant's widowed queen Tingē, together with whom he became the ancestor of a line of kings in that part of the continent. The city of Tingis (now Tangier, Morocco) was named after this queen. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If Cleodemus's account records a genuine tradition of Greco-Roman myth, then Aphra would be another version of the Fish-Centaur character Aphros, who, in the more mainstream renditions, is the origin of the name Africa. Identifying these two with each other would make it so that Queen Tingē's father is = this Sea-Centaur. As in the case of Kheiron's children, however, neither does she seem to be any sort of Centaur herself, and her own children and descendants likewise appear to be represented as completely anthropomorphic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Centauresses in Ancient Art**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Tunisia, where Aphros lived as a sea-god, there is a Roman mosaic depicting him in the company of his half-brother Neptune (the Roman version of Poseidon, the King of the Sea). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Bardo Venus + Centauresses][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;Another Roman mosaic here (see above) portrays the goddess Venus (the Roman Aphrodite) being crowned by a pair of Centauresses. (Born in the sea, Venus-Aphrodite appears elsewhere being raised from the waves by Aphros and another Fish-Centaur.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Taking it back to the central question of the birth of new Centaurs, there is a relief sculpture on a Roman sarcophagus from France depicting Ariadne and the train of the wine-god Dionysos [Dionysus]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Centauress + Foal][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;In the dead centre of the piece (see above) is a Centauress and her little Centaur-foal, engaged in an embrace much like one described by Philostratus in the *Eikónes*. (Check out the full spread of the art piece [here](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f9/Louvre_Dionysus-and-Ariadne_sarcophagus.jpg).)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The First Female Centaur?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What I've heard described as the earliest extant imagery of the Gorgon Medusa (also in relief, but from nearly a thousand years before the sarcophagus mentioned above) depicts her as a Centauress being beheaded by the hero Perseus (see below).  &#xD;&#xA;[![Centauress Medusa + Perseus][3]][3] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The connections with her lover Poseidon are interesting since he is the god of horses, and we also know that, in her death, Medusa gave birth to their son Pegasos [Pegasus], who is a winged horse. In Ovid's *Metamorphoses*, Poseidon takes the form of a bird in order to mate with Medusa, while in a different version (similarly to his father Kronos before him) Poseidon becomes a stallion. Both versions are designed to explain Pegasos' features. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meanwhile, on account of scanty evidence in both literature and art, it is rather somewhat of a mystery what exactly Pegasos' twin brother Khrysaor [Chrysaor] is supposed to have looked like. Lycophron and Nonnus seem to have envisioned him as humanoid, referring to him, respectively, as &quot;man&quot; and &quot;boy&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Theoi.com speculates that he could have been a monstrous winged boar, based on the fact that his son, the triple-bodied giant Geryones, carries a shield bearing such an emblem. It would be kinda cool to think that he was a Centaur, born, as Hesiod describes him, wielding a golden blade, not unlike the one used to slay his mother just before he sprang forth into the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/6wfZn.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/7rECV.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/lcofn.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29687" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10576" RevisionGUID="75f4d47b-ee9e-44d2-b575-5e56392cfb36" CreationDate="2022-12-11T04:06:37.273" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected spelling, fixed grammar &amp; improved formatting" Text="Medea, the enchantress, said to Jason: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I could tell you, if I pleased, who was the old woman with the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; peacock, the pomegranate, and the cuckoo staff, whom you carried over&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the river; and, likewise, who it is that speaks through the lips of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the oaken image, that stands in the prow of your galley.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My friends and I can't seem to agree on whether Medea was slyly telling Jason that she was actually, secretly, the old woman (who is Hera, the Queen of the gods) and the Oaken Image, or if she was just bragging about how powerful of an enchantress she was. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also at the end of the chapter, after Jason had retrieved the Golden Fleece, Medea, who had come with Jason to find the Golden Fleece, was not to be seen, but the old woman appeared. She was extremely excited that Jason had found the Golden Fleece but then she disappeared into the shadows. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After that the oaken image on the Argo said, &quot;Make haste, prince Jason. For your life, make haste!&quot; Does that indicate that Medea turned back into the old woman, disappeared, and then went to the ship?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29688" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10576" RevisionGUID="75f4d47b-ee9e-44d2-b575-5e56392cfb36" CreationDate="2022-12-11T04:06:37.273" UserId="2682" Comment="corrected spelling, fixed grammar &amp; improved formatting" Text="Is Medea secretly the old woman and the Talking Oaken Image in Nathaniel Hawthorne's &quot;Tanglewood Tales: The Golden Fleece&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29693" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10577" RevisionGUID="e7fb943b-80d1-47d4-b663-57cad23b65c2" CreationDate="2022-12-11T18:31:32.757" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar; &amp; adjusted a detail" Text="**Not Unlike Their Mothers**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Presumably we're talking about Centaurs in their original narrative world of Greco-Roman mythology. In said world, simply, there *are* female Centaurs, often called Centauresses, an English form of *Kentaurídes* [Centaurides], such as they are designated by Philostratus the Elder in his literary work *Eikónes* (Images/ Pictures), also known by the Latin version of its title, *Imagines*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In *Eikónes/Imagines* 2.3, Philostratus brings up two different ideas for what was commonly thought of as the origin of Centaurs. One is perhaps the most familiar, in which Kentauros [Centaurus], who seems to be a humanoid creature, mates with the mares of Magnesia in Thessaly, who then give birth to these beings who are part human and part horse. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kentauros himself was either a son of the god Apollon [Apollo], or he was engendered by the Lapith king Ixion impregnating a cloud that he mistakenly thought was the goddess Hera. Diodorus Siculus and Ovid mention a version of the origin story in which no one mates with any horses, and, for whatever reason, Ixion's lover-cloud just happens to give birth to this group of semi-equine creatures.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Baby Centaurs in Thessaly**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Philostratus says, however, that there also existed the notion &quot;that the race of Centaurs sprang from trees and rocks&quot;. This appears to be referring, though, to the first generation of these entities, because, moving on to the main point of this section of the *Eikónes*, Centaurs had domestic family life quite similar to that of humans,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; after all they have, as we see, mothers of the same stock and wives&#xD;&#xA;&gt; next, and colts as their offspring, and a most delightful home&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;on Mt Pelion near Magnesia, where they lived by the mountain's idyllic caves and springs, with the Centaurides looking as powerful as Amazons on horseback, and being, &quot;if we overlook the horse part of them&quot;, as lovely as the beautiful water-nymphs inhabiting those springs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the *Eikónes*, baby Centaurs, just like human infants, were breastfed by their mothers, and wrapped in swaddling clothes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Hylonome and the Deadly Wedding Feast**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although, by and large, Centaurs who appear as actual characters in the mythology's stories are male, there is at least one fully fleshed-out Centauress personage featured in Book 12 of Ovid's *Metamorphoses*, named Hylonome. Together with her husband, the beautiful Centaur Cyllarus, she attended the wedding of Peirithous and Hippodameia, to which the Centaurs were invited as the bridegroom's close relatives. (Depending on the genealogy, Peirithous, being a regular human son of Ixion, was either their half-brother or their uncle). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Being unaccustomed to strong drink, the Centaurs, inflamed by the wine provided thereat, turned aggressive and tried to abduct the bride and other women in attendance. Thus the festivities turned into a bloodbath in which most of the Centaurs were slain, including Cyllarus, after which Hylonome threw herself onto the spear that had killed her husband, thereby ending her own life. Going by Philostratus' account, Hylonome would have had the same origin as the rest of her fellow Centaurs and perhaps had given birth to Cyllarus's offspring, who, naturally, would have been the same sort of creature as their parents.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as the original mythology is concerned, I am not aware of any accounts of Centaurs siring offspring upon ordinary horses. As aforementioned, Ixion's son Kentauros was a man-shaped entity who begot the *Kentauroi* [Centaurs] upon the mares of Thessaly. He would have been unique in this, and his offspring would then have propagated themselves by mating with one another. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Neither do I know of any instances of Centaurs having children with human women, although some close sexual encounters—generally violent ones—do occur between the two, such as the aforementioned attempted abductions at Hippodameia's wedding; and the event leading to the death of the Centaur Nessos [Nessus], who tried to abduct Deianeira, the wife of Herakles [Hercules].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**(Human?) Daughters of the Divine Centaurs**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The next closest thing to this would be that the immortal Centaur Kheiron [Chiron] was married to a nymph named Khariklo [Chariclo], who bore him a number of daughters and at least one son, but none of these offspring seems to have been a Centaur; or at least there is no explicit description of them being such. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In some versions of her myths, one of these daughters, Endeïs, is the mother of the Argonauts Peleus and Telamon, and grandmother of the Trojan War heroes Akhilleus [Achilles] and Aias [Ajax]. So if she was in some way a Centauress she did not pass her equine traits on to her children and descendants.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kheiron was part horse because he was conceived when his parents, the Titan Kronos [Cronus] and the Oceanid Philyra, had assumed the forms of a stallion and a mare respectively. Kheiron's brother Aphros was a marine type of Centaur which, in place of a horse's hindquarters, had the tail of a fish. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the Jewish writer Cleodemus, Africa was named after a son of Abraham who was called Apheran or Aphra, and who at some point was an ally of Herakles. Aphra had a daughter named Tingē who was married to the giant Libyan king Antaios [Antaeus]. After Herakles killed Antaios, he consorted with the giant's widowed queen Tingē, together with whom he became the ancestor of a line of kings in that part of the continent. The city of Tingis (now Tangier, Morocco) was named after this queen. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If Cleodemus's account records a genuine tradition of Greco-Roman myth, then Aphra would be another version of the Fish-Centaur character Aphros, who, in the more mainstream renditions, is the origin of the name Africa. Identifying these two with each other would make it so that Queen Tingē's father is = this Sea-Centaur. As in the case of Kheiron's children, however, neither does she seem to be any sort of Centaur herself, and her own children and descendants likewise appear to be represented as completely anthropomorphic.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Centauresses in Ancient Art**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Tunisia, where Aphros lived as a sea-god, there is a Roman mosaic depicting him in the company of his half-brother Neptune (the Roman version of Poseidon, the King of the Sea). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Bardo Venus + Centauresses][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;Another Roman mosaic here (see above) portrays the goddess Venus (the Roman Aphrodite) being crowned by a pair of Centauresses. (Born in the sea, Venus-Aphrodite appears elsewhere being raised from the waves by Aphros and another Fish-Centaur.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Taking it back to the central question of the birth of new Centaurs, there is a relief sculpture on a Roman sarcophagus from France depicting Ariadne and the train of the wine-god Dionysos [Dionysus]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Centauress + Foal][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;In the dead centre of the piece (see above) is a Centauress and her little Centaur-foal, engaged in an embrace much like one described by Philostratus in the *Eikónes*. (Check out the full spread of the art piece [here](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f9/Louvre_Dionysus-and-Ariadne_sarcophagus.jpg).)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The First Female Centaur?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What I've heard described as the earliest extant imagery of the Gorgon Medusa (also in relief, but from nearly a thousand years before the sarcophagus mentioned above) depicts her as a Centauress being beheaded by the hero Perseus (see below).  &#xD;&#xA;[![Centauress Medusa + Perseus][3]][3] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The connections with her lover Poseidon are interesting since he is the god of horses, and we also know that, in her death, Medusa gave birth to their son Pegasos [Pegasus], who is a winged horse. In Ovid's *Metamorphoses*, Poseidon takes the form of a bird in order to mate with Medusa, while in a different version (similarly to his father Kronos before him) Poseidon becomes a stallion. Both versions are designed to explain Pegasos' features. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meanwhile, on account of scanty evidence in both literature and art, it is rather somewhat of a mystery what exactly Pegasos' twin brother Khrysaor [Chrysaor] is supposed to have looked like. Lycophron and Nonnus seem to have envisioned him as humanoid, referring to him, respectively, as &quot;man&quot; and &quot;boy&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Theoi.com speculates that he could have been a monstrous winged boar, based on the fact that his son, the triple-bodied giant Geryones, carries a shield bearing such an emblem. It would be kinda cool to think that he was a Centaur, born, as Hesiod describes him, wielding a golden blade, not unlike the one used to slay his mother just before he sprang forth into the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/6wfZn.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/7rECV.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/lcofn.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29694" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10579" RevisionGUID="f5196eb7-7ac0-49bb-9f71-7f20afe4cbed" CreationDate="2022-12-12T07:57:10.083" UserId="9832" Text="There is a very powerful Chinese deity who has three eyes: 杨戬. His third eye is called 天眼, which represents insight.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And if you means multi pupils in one eye, 重瞳 is known as a symbol of born sage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I use google translate and hope nothing too serious wrong :P&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29696" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10580" RevisionGUID="cb0e680c-c9e0-42cd-8aeb-392ecfb4c485" CreationDate="2022-12-13T03:11:40.160" UserId="9832" Text="If widening to include Asia, in Zhou(周) Dynasty of ancient China, there is a legend of Zhou' s origin. Zhou' s first emperor(or king?) is 周武王, his father is 周文王. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The dynasty before Zhou is Xia(夏), and Xia' s last emperor is considered cruel by later generations. 周文王 was one of the powerful vassals of Xia. The Xia emperor feast 周文王, reward him food. But it was made by meat sauce of 周文王' s first son. The sad father had to eat. And years later, he with his another son(周武王) and other people who are dissatisfied with the Xia emperor's rule overthrew the Xia Dynasty. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29699" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4784" RevisionGUID="30f6330b-49a1-4e80-be9d-a14469829173" CreationDate="2022-12-14T09:10:07.310" UserId="6920" Comment="spelling and punctuation" Text="I'm looking for the name of an ancient man who was subject to being served his own children in pieces and eating them unknowingly. He was invited for dinner by the king where this took place.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later, he had the chance to revenge himself, helping with a battle in which that king was killed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does anyone recall who might fit this description? This may have been an actual event, but my memory fails me(probably in more ways than this), so I'm putting this into the myths section.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Update:** Tantalus may be a candidate for the &quot;king&quot; whereas Demeter for the victim, but I am pretty sure in this case it was a father who ate his children, and he was later shown the rest of their bodies cut into pieces in baskets." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29700" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4784" RevisionGUID="30f6330b-49a1-4e80-be9d-a14469829173" CreationDate="2022-12-14T09:10:07.310" Comment="Proposed by 6920 approved by 53 edit id of 1902" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29701" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10581" RevisionGUID="67e7f1d5-a43f-4316-b885-30297942365d" CreationDate="2022-12-15T00:34:12.677" UserId="6920" Text="The *interpretatio romana* frequently identified gods based on a few parallels.  Hence, not only were Roman Mercury and Greek Hermes identified with each other, but also with the Egyptian Thoth and the German Odin.  So loose were the rules that gods might be identified as different gods -- for instance, Osiris was identified with both Dionysus and Hades.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In particular, there was no governing body to declare that this or that identification was wrong.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Consequently, the commonality of Saturn and Kronos ruling before the present set of gods could have identified them." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29704" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10582" RevisionGUID="2460d655-78c3-4d6d-bb2d-87b4817ab4fe" CreationDate="2022-12-20T18:28:02.603" UserId="9851" Text="Yeah. I made this mistake too. Despite how much *Google* generalizes it, he wasn't like the Stone Giants you know from *D&amp;D* or *LotR*. Hrungnir wasn't crafted out of stone like Ullikummi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ullikummi) or stone turned to flesh like Galatea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatea_(mythology)). It's more like Darth Vader with his cybernetics. He was a natural Jötunn who had certain body parts made of stone. Namely his shield, his head, and his heart (said to be a jagged, three-corned piece of stone). A lot of sources will say he was &quot;Made of stone&quot;. This was likely an oversimplification of the translation. The writers of the story probably didn't feel like saying &quot;containing a head, heart, and shield of stone&quot; every time. As far as I can tell, this was the only occurrence of something like this among their race. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29706" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10582" RevisionGUID="64a79368-b8a8-41e2-9fb6-6f91424e6429" CreationDate="2022-12-20T18:29:09.727" UserId="9851" Comment="added 104 characters in body" Text="Yeah. I made this mistake too. Despite how much *Google* generalizes it, he wasn't like the Stone Giants you know from *D&amp;D* or *LotR*. Hrungnir wasn't crafted out of stone like Ullikummi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ullikummi) or stone turned to flesh like Galatea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatea_(mythology)). It's more like Darth Vader with his cybernetics. He was a natural Jötunn who had certain body parts made of stone. Namely his shield, his head, and his heart (said to be a jagged, three-corned piece of stone). A lot of sources will say he was &quot;Made of stone&quot;. This was likely an oversimplification of the translation. The writers of the story probably didn't feel like saying &quot;containing a head, heart, and shield of stone&quot; every time. So, they chose to use a phrase like &quot;his body, consisting of stone&quot;, and the translations got it wrong. As far as I can tell, this was the only occurrence of something like this among their race. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29707" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10583" RevisionGUID="2813e01b-9f32-49eb-8917-6bff6169b324" CreationDate="2022-12-20T19:16:03.880" UserId="742" Text="One of the great rabbinic scholars from the Geonic period, Rabbi Hai Gaon (939-1038 CE) wrote a responsum wherein he mentions as something &quot;well-known&quot; that that idolatrous temples would set up apparatuses that use science/technology in order to convince the uneducated of the efficacy of their cultic practices. He notes, for example, that they would commonly have medicinal remedies at these temples so that the sick might be healed by visiting. He compares this to the Talmudic legend of Gehazi using magnetics to give the illusion that Jeroboam's Golden Calves were suspended in the air. Is there any documentation of these or other examples of such use of scientific knowledge or technology in pagan temples?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The way I understand it, in contemporary terms, they might hung something like an magic eye image on the wall of the temple and tell people that if they look closely, the deity will send them a secret message that is not plainly visible in the picture, and then when people finally see the hidden image, they would take that as proof of the efficacy or supernatural powers of the deity. Do we have any evidence of this sort of stuff going on in pagan temples?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29709" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10583" RevisionGUID="2813e01b-9f32-49eb-8917-6bff6169b324" CreationDate="2022-12-20T19:16:03.880" UserId="742" Text="Is there any documentation of the use of scientific knowledge or technology in pagan temples?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29710" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10583" RevisionGUID="2813e01b-9f32-49eb-8917-6bff6169b324" CreationDate="2022-12-20T19:16:03.880" UserId="742" Text="|history|pagan|science|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29712" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10584" RevisionGUID="8e8773ff-5265-4299-b844-99c10fd1d1e7" CreationDate="2022-12-23T08:23:37.983" UserId="9854" Text="At first glance, these two gods seem to share just a single aspect - an association with war. But digging a little deeper there seems to be a similarity between the function of Odin's maiden, the valkyries, and the Great Queen. The Prose Eda describes the valkyries like this:&quot;these women are called valkyries, and they are sent by Odin to every battle, where they choose which men are to die and they determine who has victory&quot;. So it seems they controlled the tide of war. But that also appears to be an aspect of the Morrigan. In the Táin Bó Regamna , she foretells the death of Cu Chulainn and in other myths she is credited as granting courage to warriors or frightening enemies, turning the tide of battle. In terms of connections with Odin himself, they both have an association with *warrior bands* and bandits living in the wild. Morrigan has the fianna, who seem to have revered her, and Othin is associated with bands of berserkers and outlaws. So is there any form of connection?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29714" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10584" RevisionGUID="8e8773ff-5265-4299-b844-99c10fd1d1e7" CreationDate="2022-12-23T08:23:37.983" UserId="9854" Text="Is there any connection between Odin and the Irish Goddess Morrigan?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29715" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10584" RevisionGUID="8e8773ff-5265-4299-b844-99c10fd1d1e7" CreationDate="2022-12-23T08:23:37.983" UserId="9854" Text="|norse|irish|odin|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29716" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10585" RevisionGUID="b97dc8a1-864d-4083-adf1-2353d1160b6d" CreationDate="2022-12-24T09:10:24.457" UserId="9855" Text="Yes, when I was a primary schoolboy and a church choirboy in East London during the sixties, the version 'going the rounds' was (as more or less quoted above): 'While shepherds washed their socks by night all seated round the tub, a bar of Sunlight soap came down and they began to scrub'.&#xD;&#xA;A happy Christmas to all our readers!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29720" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10587" RevisionGUID="10b10b2f-0acf-4fba-bedf-7699e3d1de87" CreationDate="2022-12-25T04:47:50.043" UserId="9858" Text="Multiple mythologies have the concept of dragons, although their depictions may differ (Western dragons are different from Oriental ones).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are Mesoamerican feathered serpents also considered to be dragons?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29722" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10587" RevisionGUID="10b10b2f-0acf-4fba-bedf-7699e3d1de87" CreationDate="2022-12-25T04:47:50.043" UserId="9858" Text="Are Mesoamerican feathered serpents considered to be dragons?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29723" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10587" RevisionGUID="10b10b2f-0acf-4fba-bedf-7699e3d1de87" CreationDate="2022-12-25T04:47:50.043" UserId="9858" Text="|dragons|mesoamerica|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29736" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="342" RevisionGUID="e8d81c56-7199-4611-9618-0dbce0696e55" CreationDate="2022-12-26T17:54:11.527" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="29737" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3114" RevisionGUID="03f07cec-af85-4321-b2d9-8f0fde5fd692" CreationDate="2022-12-30T15:06:10.773" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="29738" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10591" RevisionGUID="7f66ab39-ed4c-4db3-8b63-ee262e6d3c4d" CreationDate="2022-12-31T21:19:48.003" UserId="9873" Text="In Japanese mythology and community Akuma is specifically not spoken of because it's just simply bad and an evil word. Many clans in Japan that follow original shinto traditions have a story of Akuma which is very interesting. My grandfather told me this story when I was young, due to me being named after this spirit. My great great grandfather also carried the name Akuma. But in traditional Japanese shinto history Akuma was a sport of cleansing like a fire that burnt the forest for newgrowth, but was a being that gods and demons feared it was the most true from of natural chaos. But in the story Akuma was feared because he was large and had a skull as a face with horns and fire spilt from his eyes as his body was made of ash. Though he was scary he helped cleanse humanity by wiping tbe evil to give birth to the kind whenever balance was needed. But people saw it as an evil spirt there for the gods and demons in Japanese mythology punished and manipulated humanity to fear and hate the original spirt. My grandfather said the spirt went to a family that still accepted him and he gave his spirt to the family to help cleanse and continue the balance. Overall anyone with the name is supposed to bring great change and restore natural chaos. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29741" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5857" RevisionGUID="d752f624-93ac-435f-b899-c309ccbd1f99" CreationDate="2023-01-02T07:05:05.587" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="29748" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7881" RevisionGUID="6451729e-070b-4ead-8ef0-30198f501bcc" CreationDate="2023-01-02T20:38:38.097" UserId="1317" Comment="Typo" Text="&lt;h2&gt;Set&lt;/h2&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;is a possibility, if you're willing to stretch the meaning of &quot;dog&quot; a bit.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Set](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_(deity)) is one of the oldest gods in Egyptian mythology. He is usually represented by a mythical _sha_ or &quot;[Set-animal](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_animal)&quot; &amp;#x130e9; which appears to be some sort of canid in general, combined with some other supernatural characteristics. As time passed, Set himself had an anthropomorphic form with the head of a _sha_. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One problem with this relates to the &quot;evilness&quot; of Set. Although the [Osiris myth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris_myth) where Set murders and mutilates Osiris dates from the 24th Century BCE, Set was also a protector of Ra from the chaos god Apep. Some Pharaohs such as the 19th Dynasty [Seti I](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seti_I) and II chose Set-based names instead of Horus or Amun-based ones.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Set didn't really become an &quot;evil&quot; deity until the [11th century BCE](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Intermediate_Period_of_Egypt) and onwards. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Traditionally the god of foreigners, Set became associated with foreign oppressors (the Nubians, Assyrians, and Persians) who successively conquered Egypt. This, combined with his murder of Osiris and defeat by Horus, caused him to be regarded as a god of evil. By the Hellenistic age, the Greeks had syncretized him with the monster Typhon. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29750" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5866" RevisionGUID="9f7b70c6-9a4c-4d50-9ae6-47ee52381251" CreationDate="2023-01-03T08:41:19.507" UserId="6920" Comment="grammar error" Text="So I have a few answers and comments to your question.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yes, the info in the first two paragraphs are correct, so you got that part right. Well done.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Second...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The belief isn't mentioned in Wikipedia's Wolves in folklore, religion&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and mythology and I didn't find anything about it around the net. I&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wonder if this is an actual folklore belief, or something the author&#xD;&#xA;&gt; made up.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I did some searching up on the web, and I found a section of the exact wiki page you referenced stating that yes, indeed wolves will come back to revenge their death if killed (Cherokee belief). But I couldn't find that belief anywhere else.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Third...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can read more about it here: [Wolves in folklore, religion, and mythology.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I hope that answers your question. Thanks!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolves_in_folklore,_religion_and_mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29751" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5866" RevisionGUID="9f7b70c6-9a4c-4d50-9ae6-47ee52381251" CreationDate="2023-01-03T08:41:19.507" Comment="Proposed by 6920 approved by 53 edit id of 1903" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29754" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="6294" RevisionGUID="b3a7f03f-0c1c-4abc-a8e0-4c3cc0117c3c" CreationDate="2023-01-05T20:01:26.443" UserId="398" Comment="removed Christian proselytizing" Text="To me, it's likely something else (than merely &quot;wild animals&quot;) that come during famines/war, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's significant enough (numerically)...to specifically be identified with war, and hunger: to destroy a fourth of the earth! So it's not merely, &quot;wild animals&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When you look up the root Greek used...it implies (&quot;from hell&quot; or &quot;evil&quot;).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Given that many (wicked) things will come upon the earth from hell...as the woes continue, I think the odds are likely it's related.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One area that comes to mind...(as spoken in the books of Enoch and Jubilees and Jaser, among others): are that the spirits of the giants and the hybrids are buried &quot;in/on the earth&quot;, in the rocks/deserts/mountains for &quot;70 GENERATIONS&quot; from the &quot;days of Jared&quot;." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29755" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10594" RevisionGUID="a011db3f-2087-40c7-adc7-a58c078f9f2d" CreationDate="2023-01-06T00:23:19.087" UserId="158" Text="Ancient Greek culture and mythology is famously humanist, and they had a strong tradition of Heroes who undertook epic feats throughout the mythos. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as I can tell, all the Heroes had a god or goddess somewhere in their family tree, either as a parent or a more distant ancestor. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I’m curious if this is a rule, or just a trend? Did any significant Greek Heroes or Heroines live without any divine ancestry?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29757" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10594" RevisionGUID="a011db3f-2087-40c7-adc7-a58c078f9f2d" CreationDate="2023-01-06T00:23:19.087" UserId="158" Text="Did Greek mythology feature any significant Heroes without a divine lineage?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29758" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10594" RevisionGUID="a011db3f-2087-40c7-adc7-a58c078f9f2d" CreationDate="2023-01-06T00:23:19.087" UserId="158" Text="|greek|demi-gods|heroism|hero-cult|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29759" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10595" RevisionGUID="e98dfd7a-dd7e-4d53-9b1c-04a48953a575" CreationDate="2023-01-06T14:11:25.027" UserId="9886" Text="there is an appalachian story and children's picture book about mountain cows.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;they had shorter front legs than regular cows and holes in their ears.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;the short legs make it easier to graze going uphill.  When they got to the top, they'd put their front legs into through the holes in their ears, roll down to the bottom and repeat.&#xD;&#xA;There was another one about giant potatoes but I can't remember the details." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29761" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10596" RevisionGUID="3c217eb4-dc22-4707-bb2d-ecfa916ecdf6" CreationDate="2023-01-06T21:41:34.430" UserId="9887" Text="According to Stuart R. Kaplan, Lady Frieda Harris under the guidance of Aleister Crowley described a tarot card that mentioned a cynocephalus ape, which I understand to be A'ani, and his relation to Thoth as, &quot;THE MAGICIAN OR JUGGLER. Mercury, who is Wisdom. Will and Word, by whom the world is created, symbolises the fluidic basis of all transmission of activity. Behind him and through him is the Ape, Hanuman, which is a Hindu conception. The Egyptian counterpart, Thoth, is also always followed by the Cynocephalus Ape&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;Lady Harris later wrote this second description of the card, &quot;THE MAGICIAN OR JUGGLER. Mercury. Beth. He is Mercury, the messenger of God, and juggles with the four symbols of the elements, and the papyrus or Word, the pen or Will, the wand or Wisdom. He represents the creative force in action. As Thoth in Egyptian tradition, his attendant and shadow is the Cynocephalus Ape&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;Kaplan also notes that further information on the history and symbolism of Tarot can be found in The Encyclopedia of Tarot published by U.S. Games Systems, Inc.&#xD;&#xA;I hope this helps." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29763" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10597" RevisionGUID="94615464-218f-4cb8-bbd5-16c4f3a8d4bd" CreationDate="2023-01-07T10:48:35.140" UserId="9889" Text="In [this video][1] Derek of Myth vision explores the story of Jonah and the Fish swallowing him.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is this comment below in that video.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![image of comment text][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This seems like a very interesting allegory of nature. Has some scholar of Bible interpreted in this way? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://youtu.be/MOgA25ZE9kw&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/I1ecZ.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29765" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10597" RevisionGUID="94615464-218f-4cb8-bbd5-16c4f3a8d4bd" CreationDate="2023-01-07T10:48:35.140" UserId="9889" Text="Is there a detailed analysis comparing Jonah's story in the Bible with the Sun and the seasons?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29766" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10597" RevisionGUID="94615464-218f-4cb8-bbd5-16c4f3a8d4bd" CreationDate="2023-01-07T10:48:35.140" UserId="9889" Text="|mythohistory|bible|interpretation|metaphors|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29767" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10598" RevisionGUID="9614f9bf-7458-4763-9eec-b7c8aaa5af6e" CreationDate="2023-01-07T21:01:53.040" UserId="188" Text="Been playing a game that uses a lotta mythological creatures, vampires, sphinxes, kitsune, tengu, minotaurs, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But then they used Lorialets. The only easy source on it that cites things, is [a Wikimonde article](https://plus.wikimonde.com/wiki/Lorialet), whatever that is, which itself cites [this](https://www.erudit.org/fr/revues/etudfr/1996-v32-n1-etudfr1081/036013ar.pdf) scholarly-looking French PDF about Gargantua and Pantagruel? Can't find &quot;Lorialet&quot; in there?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29769" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10598" RevisionGUID="9614f9bf-7458-4763-9eec-b7c8aaa5af6e" CreationDate="2023-01-07T21:01:53.040" UserId="188" Text="Are Lorialets real or fictional mythological creatures?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29770" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10598" RevisionGUID="9614f9bf-7458-4763-9eec-b7c8aaa5af6e" CreationDate="2023-01-07T21:01:53.040" UserId="188" Text="|untagged|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29771" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10598" RevisionGUID="e8ed53e3-005e-4ef5-a1ac-4be7aecd53cf" CreationDate="2023-01-08T00:12:29.213" UserId="188" Comment="added 433 characters in body" Text="Been playing a game that uses a lotta mythological creatures, vampires, sphinxes, kitsune, tengu, minotaurs, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But then they used Lorialets. The only easy source on it that cites things, is [a Wikimonde article](https://plus.wikimonde.com/wiki/Lorialet), whatever that is, which itself cites [this](https://www.erudit.org/fr/revues/etudfr/1996-v32-n1-etudfr1081/036013ar.pdf) scholarly-looking French PDF about Gargantua and Pantagruel? Can't find &quot;Lorialet&quot; in there?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other [sources](https://writinginmargins.weebly.com/home/lorialets-and-mooncalves), say that lorialets come from the anonymous chapbooks that were the inspiration for the more famous [Gargantua and Pantagruel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gargantua_and_Pantagruel) of François Rabelais.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there page-number-and-line style confirmation that *that* fictional work was the origin of lorialets? Or is there an even older source?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29775" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10600" RevisionGUID="419b2da2-9515-46c4-a762-bc0853506e64" CreationDate="2023-01-10T17:24:21.127" UserId="8780" Text="My question is about the twin brothers - the mortal Castor and the immortal Pollux. Regarding this statue, which is a Roman copy of a 4th-5th century BC Greek version:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the descriptions I found it is usually only written that Pollux is holding two torches, while Castor a &quot;disk&quot;. Can that disk be a mirror, through which he is looking at Pollux? Because there have been multiple antique circular mirrors found, which depict Castor and Pollux on their reverse side. For example this bronze Etruscan mirror, from 3rd century BC:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(If that was true, then one possible interpretation could be that Pollux represents the source of light, and Castor its reflection. Just like the Sun and the Moon.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/LeXB3l.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Pyu6p.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29777" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10600" RevisionGUID="419b2da2-9515-46c4-a762-bc0853506e64" CreationDate="2023-01-10T17:24:21.127" UserId="8780" Text="What is in the hand of Castor? Can that be a mirror?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29778" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10600" RevisionGUID="419b2da2-9515-46c4-a762-bc0853506e64" CreationDate="2023-01-10T17:24:21.127" UserId="8780" Text="|greek|interpretation|iconography|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29779" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3194" RevisionGUID="9a690c9f-c147-4ffe-8840-1dcc73198240" CreationDate="2023-01-11T23:04:55.667" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="29780" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10601" RevisionGUID="d347729d-1508-4829-a5cd-4c01c9504cbe" CreationDate="2023-01-12T03:48:34.560" UserId="5477" Text="Checking out the [early history of the zodiac](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac#Early_history), it says the Babylonians were the first to divide it into an &quot;equal&quot; 12 parts, &quot;by analogy to 12 schematic months of 30 days each&quot;. It also says &quot;each sign contained 30° of celestial longitude, thus creating the first known celestial coordinate system&quot; and &quot;when the degrees of longitude were given, they were expressed with reference to the 30° of the zodiacal sign, i.e., not with a reference to the continuous 360° ecliptic.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I understand the babylonians used a base 60 number system, but why is that too?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How did they get 30, 360, and 12? Why was the sky or celestial sphere divided into 12? Did they literal invent the idea of 360 degrees?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29782" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10601" RevisionGUID="d347729d-1508-4829-a5cd-4c01c9504cbe" CreationDate="2023-01-12T03:48:34.560" UserId="5477" Text="Why was the Babylonian zodiac divided into 12 equal segments?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29783" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10601" RevisionGUID="d347729d-1508-4829-a5cd-4c01c9504cbe" CreationDate="2023-01-12T03:48:34.560" UserId="5477" Text="|zodiac|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29784" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10602" RevisionGUID="24c8baca-dd16-4e68-b01d-4bd599521f05" CreationDate="2023-01-14T18:05:02.850" UserId="9906" Text="The movie that you are referring to is called &quot;Fists of the White Lotus&quot; it stars Gordon Liu and Lo Leih.&#xD;&#xA;The monk Hung Wen-Ting (Gordon Liu)fights against the evil priest White Lotus(Lo Leih)who is a tai Chi master that has achieved invincible armour.  In the fight White Lotus hits him with the 100 steps Palm. He staggers away to a man who heals him with acupuncture and then trains him in the Deadly Needle style of Kung Fu enabling him to return and defeat White Lotus. When he returns, the priest asks him, &quot;how did you survive my 100 steps palm?&quot; The monk replies, &quot;I only took 99 steps!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;GREAT MOVIE!!!! " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29786" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10603" RevisionGUID="11c806a0-e655-4925-9761-f86a9cf80627" CreationDate="2023-01-15T04:31:45.973" UserId="188" Text="Werewolves.com: [Werecats: The Lions of Tsavo](https://www.werewolves.com/werecats-the-lions-of-tsavo/):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Africa, however, werecats and large felines are honored as kings; the ability for humans to shapeshift into feline form is a sign of royalty, –or even of a god or goddess. The best example of this traditional belief is shown in Africa’s historical, real life creatures “the man-eaters of Tsavo.” [...] The native railroad workers believed the lions were reincarnated African kings who were trying to stop the invading Europeans by making it impossible for them to build the railroad.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And that's all the info that [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werecat#cite_ref-15) has about the African werelion, since they use that sole source. And with such vagueness, I'm leaning to the idea that African werelions were made up this century or so.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But I want to know if it was only invented this century or the previous, or if it really was from pre-colonial African folklore, or thereabouts. If so, I'd like at least written attestations that such myths existed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And if there are any such gods that can turn into lions and humans and back, [Wikipedia's list of Lion Deities](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Lion_deities) doesn't have anyone useful. They're basically all Egyptian or Hindu." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29788" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10603" RevisionGUID="11c806a0-e655-4925-9761-f86a9cf80627" CreationDate="2023-01-15T04:31:45.973" UserId="188" Text="What's the oldest information about African werelions? Most info just talks about The Lions of Tsavo" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29789" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10603" RevisionGUID="11c806a0-e655-4925-9761-f86a9cf80627" CreationDate="2023-01-15T04:31:45.973" UserId="188" Text="|africa|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29792" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="2954" RevisionGUID="46fd6c29-4a5b-4939-b617-733527134612" CreationDate="2023-01-15T22:31:52.823" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="29796" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10605" RevisionGUID="17e46f01-6fe4-45e6-8978-e84df73e450f" CreationDate="2023-01-18T00:05:12.040" UserId="8896" Text="Besides Frost and Fire Giants, what are the other types of giants?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Skjalden.com, there are also Sea Giants, Storm Giants, Mountain Giants&#xD;&#xA;https://skjalden.com/lesser-known-giants-in-norse-mythology/&#xD;&#xA;https://skjalden.com/aurboda/&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29798" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10605" RevisionGUID="17e46f01-6fe4-45e6-8978-e84df73e450f" CreationDate="2023-01-18T00:05:12.040" UserId="8896" Text="How many kinds of giants in Norse mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29799" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10605" RevisionGUID="17e46f01-6fe4-45e6-8978-e84df73e450f" CreationDate="2023-01-18T00:05:12.040" UserId="8896" Text="|norse|european-folklore|giants|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29805" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10607" RevisionGUID="8b1d14a4-2eb0-486e-969b-d9c0bbc1e8f8" CreationDate="2023-01-19T18:16:03.603" UserId="9924" Text="You seem to be overlooking the obvious, that the snake and bull symbols were first and foremost associated with the Mother Goddess (Crete, Egypt), representing renewal and fertility. The ancients naturally recognized that new life comes from the female long before they understood that the male must also be involved. The Egyptian Goddess Hathor was depicted as  wearing the sun disk and bull horns on her head, while the Cretans during the same era (about 3500 B.C. onwards) worshipped the snake Goddess, who is also intimately linked to Bull leaping and bull symbolism. Later, as male deities and Sky Gods replaced female deities, we see the sun god Apollo &quot;kill&quot; the serpents of the female Delphic oracle/goddess and take on her traits.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29807" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="10561" RevisionGUID="01fd4a9a-0b84-4ce3-86c6-3d6db4a0343c" CreationDate="2023-01-19T19:01:40.227" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="29808" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10608" RevisionGUID="cc16b9e4-d19e-4f64-bd40-c95421a75ba0" CreationDate="2023-01-19T21:01:27.637" UserId="9925" Text="## Those Mythologies are Related ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Celtic, Greek, Slavic, and Vedic mythologies all stem from a common mythological source, the [Proto-Indo-Europeans][1]. So it is entirely possible that the common characteristics you've identified are echos of an older mythology that included a fertility god associated with stags and snakes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## PIE Story ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The short version of the Proto-Indo-Eurpeans (PIE) is: in approximately 3500BC the horse was domesticated on the steppes north of the Black Sea. Over the next ~2000 years, the steppe people migrated into, traded with, and profoundly influenced basically every other civilization around, from Tibet to Ireland. (OK, the Tibet influence was small, but certainly one could say from the Punjab to Ireland.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This history is supported by a robust body of evidence in the form of linguistics, genetics, and archeological remains (Corded Ware Culture, Kurgan Culture, etc.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## PIE Myths ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Piecing together the common parts of the various modern mythologies, a (rough) picture of the [PIE mythos][2] can be re-created. As an example, they all contain a &quot;Foundation War&quot; between rival factions (Aesir/Vanir, Gods/Titans, Devas/Asuras) where the father-cheif (Odin, Zeus, Indra) leads the winning faction and takes the sacred place (Asgard, Mt. Olympus, Earth) and the losers are not slaughtered, but are instead reduced in status.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Pantheon ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The PIE pantheon is pretty sparse, because it's hard to say for certain what this pre-literate society believed, but it's certainly reasonable to propose a link between the gods you identified. Over time, it's likely that stories and attributes shifted, so the idea that Hermes received (or donated!) attributes to/from Dionysus is also reasonable.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_mythology" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29814" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6144" RevisionGUID="281dc990-7fc5-4b0e-97c8-c6f43917372c" CreationDate="2023-01-21T04:10:31.340" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="29815" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10610" RevisionGUID="22dc37c1-26c7-47f8-ac97-dd70258a4351" CreationDate="2023-01-21T16:33:10.833" UserId="9928" Text="[![list as per wiki page][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MXVks.png&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The list according to the wiki page" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29819" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10612" RevisionGUID="42b53930-43ee-482a-84fd-538e1adfdff4" CreationDate="2023-01-22T15:59:44.817" UserId="9933" Text="Following E.R. Dodds' (1951) *The Greeks and the Irrational*, I'd suggest that @Andrew Johnson and @DukeZhou are both correct, in a way. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Among the Ancient Greeks, Greek sōphrosynē (&quot;moderation,&quot; &quot;temperance&quot;) was sometimes considered to be the opposite of Greek *hybris*, English &quot;hubris.&quot; Among the Christians, however, Dodd's suggested the opposite of *hybris*/hubris was &quot;humility&quot; (Latin: *humilitas*; Greek: *tapeinós*). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(As two asides, in Ancient Greek, *tapeinós* often meant &quot;debased,&quot; &quot;dejected,&quot; &quot;low-lying,&quot; even &quot;bad&quot; in the sense of &quot;debased&quot;. And, technically speaking, the opposite of *sōphrosynē* is often considered by etymologists to be represented by the Greek word *mania*: &quot;madness.&quot;)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29821" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="10379" RevisionGUID="00cc2da7-c8ac-437e-b35d-f5cbb9378a22" CreationDate="2023-01-22T16:07:05.790" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="29822" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10613" RevisionGUID="0b807986-c212-4ab8-bf9a-afe1d0b7a3ef" CreationDate="2023-01-22T20:05:18.543" UserId="9926" Text="How are Odin and Loki related? In some places I read that they're siblings, in the movie it's father and son I think" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29824" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10613" RevisionGUID="0b807986-c212-4ab8-bf9a-afe1d0b7a3ef" CreationDate="2023-01-22T20:05:18.543" UserId="9926" Text="Is Odin brother of Loki?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29825" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10613" RevisionGUID="0b807986-c212-4ab8-bf9a-afe1d0b7a3ef" CreationDate="2023-01-22T20:05:18.543" UserId="9926" Text="|norse|odin|loki|thor|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29826" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10614" RevisionGUID="fe148d54-0c50-444a-871c-f338d7c8c17e" CreationDate="2023-01-22T20:33:54.970" UserId="398" Text="The Marvel characters are not the real mythological characters and resemble the actual portrayals of the Norse gods in almost **no ways** beyond the superficial (name, vague powers).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So any and all information you get from those &quot;movies&quot; you can safely ignore.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia actually has the real information, when it notes that the [Þrymskviða](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki#%C3%9Erymskvi%C3%B0a) refers to Loki as the son of Laufey and that the Poetic Edda calls him by his Patronymic [Fárbautason](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laufey). Putting the two together, Loki is the child of Laufey (mother) and Fárbauti (father).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The connection with Odin probably comes from the [Lokasenna](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki#Lokasenna), in which Loki says that Odin and he shared blood (=became blood brothers), but he is not his brother by descent." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29830" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="10378" RevisionGUID="08694ee8-200f-4e7d-936a-95d0b8547d3d" CreationDate="2023-01-23T14:07:35.933" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="29831" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10615" RevisionGUID="471fba60-ad1c-4ab8-8578-b638820c003d" CreationDate="2023-01-23T22:48:19.657" UserId="9935" Text="Re the Stentor-Hermes voice contest, Stentor committed hubris, thinking himself equal or better than a god. He was punished for that.&#xD;&#xA;(Agamemnon's punishment in having to sacrifice his daughter, Iphigeneia, is another such instance.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Helen's gift of vocal mimicry (I forgot the greek name for it) was given to her by Aphrodite. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sorry I have no time to look for the references." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29833" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10616" RevisionGUID="cd1f400d-7f8f-42e6-b23d-7a1ff351d14a" CreationDate="2023-01-25T12:41:57.043" UserId="9939" Text="There are reasons to believe that they were:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Let's put monotheistic religion as Christianity, since it is the most widespread in our days.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The post-diluvian peoples gradually separated themselves from that primitive tradition and from the idea of a single god, ruler and governor of all. And they were gradually contaminated with diverse beliefs, human inventions and perhaps actions of the devil, of that first idea of a single transcendent god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;With time, as they united, fought and conquered each other, the beliefs were logically merging and mixing with each other and little by little they were leaving aside that primordial truth that the ancestors had narrated.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Greco-Roman world, so closely linked to each other, they understood that, although there were many deities, there was a celestial hierarchy. There was a supreme divinity who ruled over the rest of the gods, who, in turn, were followed by other lower divinities or intermediate spiritual beings, which they called &quot;daimon&quot; (spiritual beings who were in the lives of humans for good or evil).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, in the &quot;[Apology of Socrates][1]&quot;, a text of Plato where he narrates the death of Socrates, he says that he never had divine interventions of god who spoke to him, but he had a daimon (a spirit), who was guiding him in a negative way, that is, he did not tell him what he had to do, but he did tell him what he did NOT have to do.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Socrates was a martyr of the Old Testament of the truth of one god, of monotheism. Socrates said &quot;there is only one god&quot;. That is why he is accused of being an &quot;atheist&quot; and was tried and killed for it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What did Socrates and the Greeks in general say? He said that Zeus (or Jupiter) was the father of the gods, so when Cicero was going to be killed, he said the following phrase: &quot;Pater hominumque deorum miserere mei&quot; (Father of men and gods, have mercy on me).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cicero did not pray to all the gods, **he prayed to the father of all gods.**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The famous Walter F. Otto, a German philologist known for his work on the importance and significance of ancient Greek mythology and religion, claimed that the Greeks were monotheistic, but that they personified the various divine attributes in lower divinities (that is why all Greek &quot;gods&quot; were anthropomorphic).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This, however, is not accepted by everyone. For example, St. Augustine and Dante said that the mythological gods were simply angels. St. Paul, on the other hand, said they were demons.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the keys to understand that the Greco-Roman culture was monotheistic is anthropomorphism.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mount Olympus is a well-ordered world. The head is Zeus, son of Cronus. He is the ruler of heaven who directs all the gods and does it in a harmonious and non-violent way.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The word &quot;Zeus&quot; is the word that in Latin later became the word &quot;Deus&quot; (God), (the genitive of Zeus is Deus).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus has the same root as &quot;Theós&quot;, which in Greek means &quot;God&quot;, &quot;the divine&quot;, &quot;the luminous&quot;, &quot;the bright&quot;, &quot;the shining&quot;, &quot;the resplendent&quot;. And Zeus was transferred to the Latin world with the word Jupiter, that is, &quot;father of the divine light&quot;. &quot;Ju&quot; is equivalent to &quot;Zeus&quot; contracted in Latin. Therefore the fundamental attribute of Zeus/Jupiter, is the lightning, the light, the light bearer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Both Zeus/Jupiter and Yahweh, because of this fulminating luminous power, cannot show themselves directly to men as they are. He showed himself in the form of Athena, Apollo, Dionysus, etc. That is why he always transformed himself into animals or other men.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The divinities in the classical world are always represented with proportion and beauty. Because divinity implies beauty. That is why centaurs, minotaurs and other non-human creatures were deformed, aberrant. Half man - half bull, half horse - half man, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The truth is that the Greco-Latin world and the Christian world are strictly related.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, do you know the myth of Pandora? When Jupiter made man, the other gods, jealous, wanted to contribute something. For this, joining efforts and gifts (the word &quot;doron&quot; in Greek, means gift and &quot;dora&quot; is the plural, &quot;Gifts&quot;), they created a woman calling her Pandora (&quot;pan&quot; means &quot;all&quot; and &quot;Pandora&quot; means &quot;All gifts&quot;).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jupiter, to punish the pride of those who had wanted to emulate him, gave Pandora a box containing all the evils of the world, so that she could give it to her husband on the condition that it was not to be opened.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, they opened it and when they opened it, all the evils spread throughout the earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What does all this sound like to you? Genesis. The Greeks and Romans narrated the genesis long before the arrival of Christianity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Greco-Roman world, as in the Christian world, all guilt must be paid for. There can be no evil without guilt. Just as there can be no good without glory.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus/Jupier considered that someone had to pay for the crime committed by men towards the gods. But how does a man pay a debt to a god? A man cannot be equated with a god. What can a man give to a god that the gods do not have?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The solution, for classical Greco-Roman antiquity, was to be found in the word of a &quot;mediator.&quot; Only a mediator, someone who mediated between men and god, could pay for that initial fault.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But in order to pay for that initial fault against the gods, that mediator could not be a simple man, because his debt was unpayable. Nor could he be a god, because the god was precisely the offended one. The answer to the solution was to be found in the dual-natured hero. The mediator had to be someone who was both man and god at the same time (known as a &quot;hero&quot;).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What does this sound like to you? The Christian confession (the most famous monotheistic religion).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apology_(Plato)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29837" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10618" RevisionGUID="670d7e4b-2275-44ab-b641-74e9e9526339" CreationDate="2023-01-25T23:26:41.603" UserId="9943" Text="I came across a mythological belief a few weeks ago, I believe in a Sam Kriss piece (1).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It centered around a bird (a swan or goose, I want to say?) that ceaselessly flew (in a primordial void/chaos?) - the universe had started with its flight and would end with it (the bird exhausted/landed/perished?).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think it might have been a Pacific islander culture, or something else relatively obscure like that. I'm almost confident it was a shamanistic belief.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've trawled through wikipedia but had no luck. (It is not the Huma bird, which is said to never land, but lacks the connection to the universe's existence. Neither is is the Roc, Simurgh, or Ziz).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. (I remember thinking the reference might have been a Borgesian hoax, but subsequently finding a wikipedia page that corroborated its existence.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29839" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10618" RevisionGUID="670d7e4b-2275-44ab-b641-74e9e9526339" CreationDate="2023-01-25T23:26:41.603" UserId="9943" Text="Which culture believed in a bird whose flight sustains the universe?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29840" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10618" RevisionGUID="670d7e4b-2275-44ab-b641-74e9e9526339" CreationDate="2023-01-25T23:26:41.603" UserId="9943" Text="|myth-identification|mythical-creatures|animals|creation|apocalypse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29842" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10619" RevisionGUID="a68713b8-6bd3-45f5-9110-0b5285f00bee" CreationDate="2023-01-27T17:40:16.383" UserId="9946" Text="He's a short, money-grubbing rich dude getting honorable, regular people stuck in debt to steal their children, I mean ... This is all the antisemitic conspiracies in one. C'mon guys. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the ADL (https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/jewish-control-federal-reserve-classic-antisemitic-myth)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; For centuries, antisemitic propaganda has demonized the Jew as a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; conspiratorial, manipulative outsider. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; In 1962, Omni Publications, a distributor of The Protocols of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Elders of Zion, reprinted an early attack on the Federal Reserve&#xD;&#xA;&gt; called The Truth About the Slump (1931), in which author A.N. Field&#xD;&#xA;&gt; asserted:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;The Money Power that rules the world today is centered in the hands&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of individuals of a particular race and creed.&quot; Field labeled the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; founding of America’s Federal Reserve as that point when &quot;the United&#xD;&#xA;&gt; States was enslaved under this German-Jew engine of control.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the United States Holocaust Museum:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Historically, blood libels often took place close to Passover, when&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jews were charged with using the blood of Christian children to bake&#xD;&#xA;&gt; matzahs.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jewish Virtual library: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In contrast to the honest German farmer or worker, the Jew is depicted&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as someone who lives off the sweat of others by his swindling&#xD;&#xA;&gt; activities as a lawyer, a merchant, or a banker, whose god is money.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Jew as a swindler is shown in the following picture by a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; twelve-year-old girl.[5] In the drawing, the Jewish livestock dealer's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; attention appears focused on the bag of money; his clothes are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; tattered and he is ill-kempt. The German farmer, by contrast, although&#xD;&#xA;&gt; giving the appearance of being exhausted, is adequately groomed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Just because the text doesn't explicitly use a Jewish name doesn't mean this isn't obviously antisemitic. Lots of bigoted stuff doesn't come out and say &quot;By the way, the bad guy is a Jew!!!!!&quot;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29844" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10620" RevisionGUID="3cba8153-d809-4623-b735-5ff004c62acd" CreationDate="2023-01-27T21:08:18.167" UserId="1177" Text="I take the liberty of referring you to my answer to a similar question in the History of Science forum.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://hsm.stackexchange.com/questions/1884/origin-of-360-degrees/1885#1885&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29847" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6316" RevisionGUID="4ee4c8be-d2b0-4637-872b-c90106675497" CreationDate="2023-01-30T22:00:25.127" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="29848" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4822" RevisionGUID="96964e61-697f-4166-b74b-4ffd285aa464" CreationDate="2023-01-31T22:21:24.670" UserId="7106" Comment="This is a quote from copyrighted source I have edited in quotes according to the original source to be clear it is being cited, also titles for easier reading" Text="Was Rumplestiltzchen intended as a Jewish Character?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Short answer&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would say, no, he was not. The Encyclopäpie des Märchens entry for Rumpelstiltzchen directs to “Name  des Unholdes” (name of the fiend/enemy). Entry 5 on pg. 1170-1171 discusses the name Rumpelstiltzchen. It states that the Grimms knew of the name from Johann Fischarts Geschichklitterung (1582). “Rumpele stilt oder der Poppart.” It was a game. What kind of game it was is unknown. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Long answer and comment&#xD;&#xA;------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, look at what the Grimms wrote about the text in the Appendix they wrote to the KHM. I consider the Appendix (Anhang) to be a gold mine of information. Most translators ignore it thinking that people like yourself will have no interest in it. Only Margaret Hunt and myself have translated it completely. From my translation: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Already Fischart, can testify as to the age of this tale in Gargantug where the games are listed, is under No. 363 a game: &quot;Rumpele stilt or Poppart.&quot; One also says Rumpenstinzchen. The story itself is also started in the following manner differently: a little girl was given a Kaute flax, out of this it should spin flax, but what it spun, was always gold thread and not a single thread of flax could come out of her wheel. Since it was sad, sat on the roof and spun and spun for three days, but still nothing but of gold. Thereon a small man-ling came walking: I will save you from all your need, a young king's son shall pass here, and marry you, but you must promise me your first child, etc. Also the man-ling is discovered differently. A maid of the Queen goes out at night into the forest there she sees it on a cooking spoon and riding around a large fire, etc. At last the man-ling also flies on the wooden spoon out of the window. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In many German Märchen Millers and Miller’s daughters come up (see No. 31.), the current recalls very particularly to the Nordic Fenia and Menia, that all, that one wanted to have were able to grind, and who the king Frode let grind peace and gold. - The calling of the children grabs into many myths. &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The spinning of the gold can also be understood in a different way, namely through the hard difficult, sorrowful work of making gold wire, which was left to poor maidens (virgins) to do. So it is called in an old Danish song:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&gt;	nu er mim sorg saa mangefold,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&gt;	fom Jomfruer, de spinde guld.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In English:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&gt;	now my sorrow so many times,&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&gt;	as virgins, they spin gold.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**Notes:**&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**Kaute** = an old German expression for “a depression.”? &#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;**Handwritten notes:**&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;“After a different telling is begun in this way: the wife goes by a garden, wherein beautiful cherries are, gets strong desire for them and eats of them; a black man comes out of the earth and she must promise him her child. When is it born, he pushed through all watches [guards], who the husband has set out, and will only leave the woman the child, if when she knows his name. Now the man follows him, sees, how he climbs into a cave that is from all sides surrounded by hanging bone spoons[?] and hears how he calls himself Fleder Filtz.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I can not see anything anti-semitic in what the Grimms say here. To them, the text is about the difficult work of spinning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am working on translating the 2nd Volume of the First Edition of the KHM into English. I would caution against using modern cultural norms to  interpret, identify or ascribe meaning the tales. Things that are abhorrent to us today were common place a long time ago. Would anyone today take a young child to see an execution today? No. Way back it was common. While some today may us a phrase such as: “He should be hung, drawn and quartered,” most probably have no idea exactly how gruesome that actually was. The cutting off of horses heads and hanging them on a wall may seem “barbaric” to us today, but when one understands that horses in Norse mythology were sacred animals often raised and uses specifically for sacrifices, to ward off evil, enemies, etc., it puts the whole question more into perspective. I would say that before people such as Bunce make such statements as you wrote, that they understand the mythology and history behind the tales first. Statements like that are easy to say if one does not know the facts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding the Jew in Thorns – it is a text I have worked on. I would say that it was not the Grimms that first created the Jewish character in the text. The text has a rich history. &#xD;&#xA;The Jew was first added in a Czech version from 1604. Johannes Bolte states that the German poem was brought into Čzech in 1604 by Tobias Mouřenin from Leitmischul: “Historia kratochvilná o jednom sedlském pacholku, kterak u sedláka za tři groše sloužil, a o poběhlým židu” (Entertaining History of a Fram-servant, who served a farmer for three Groscehn, and a lost Jew). It is in this Čzech version that the character of the monk is first changed into a Jew. Before that, in other versions, the hated character is a monk. For this I would consider Henry the VIII and the Dissolution of the Monasteries. Monks were not well liked in the past. Why has the monk's bad reputation mostly, if not entirely, been ignored?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have looked at the origins of the text. I have looked at where, when and by whom the character of the Jew was added into different texts. I have not looked at the question as to why the figure of the Jew was added. The Grimm version, as Bolte stated, was also based on an oral version from Hessen. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29849" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4822" RevisionGUID="96964e61-697f-4166-b74b-4ffd285aa464" CreationDate="2023-01-31T22:21:24.670" Comment="Proposed by 7106 approved by 53 edit id of 1907" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29856" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5857" RevisionGUID="22a6a8e6-703a-40f9-8885-ada6a686e7f4" CreationDate="2023-02-02T09:02:50.340" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="29857" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10622" RevisionGUID="1b66559a-2d6d-469c-8b54-ed31be143466" CreationDate="2023-02-02T17:27:57.453" UserId="9963" Text="Many websites refer to the Tamil legend of a submerged land off southern India, where the sangams took place. E.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_Sangams This lost land is often equatd with Kumari Kandam or Mu.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apparantly this land was the site of a series of meetings (a sangam) that lasted 4400 years. This first sangam collected or created the oldest Tamil stories and poems. But all records were lost when the city flooded. The second sangam lasted 3700 years, but this city was also destroyed in a flood. The third sangam lasted 1850 years and gave us the Tamil literature we have today. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The claim is usually sourced to Nakkirar's &quot;Iraiyanar Akapporul&quot; commentary. Nakkirar was apparently a famous Tamil scholar. He wrote a commentary on ancient love poems, and his commentary mentioned the sangams and their location, duration, etc. I can find plenty of summaries of what he said online. But I cannot find a direct translation. I want to see exactly what he said, and not just an overview. The only translation of the &quot;Iraiyanar Akapporul&quot; that I can find online does not include his sangam comments. https://archive.org/details/dli.jZY9lup2kZl6TuXGlZQdjZpd.TVA_BOK_0009005/page/n5/mode/2up  I have Googled, asked on Quora and asked on Reddit (the mythology sub), but with no luck.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am not looking for Nakkirar's entire commentary. I only want the parts that deal with the sangams. Can anyone help?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29859" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10622" RevisionGUID="1b66559a-2d6d-469c-8b54-ed31be143466" CreationDate="2023-02-02T17:27:57.453" UserId="9963" Text="Tamil mythology: Where can I find Nakkirar's description of the Sangams? (English translation if possible.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29860" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10622" RevisionGUID="1b66559a-2d6d-469c-8b54-ed31be143466" CreationDate="2023-02-02T17:27:57.453" UserId="9963" Text="|hindu|flood-myth|mu|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29861" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10622" RevisionGUID="08b30f3b-8a32-4261-bd67-44c405f5f0fa" CreationDate="2023-02-02T17:28:45.720" UserId="9963" Comment="added 9 characters in body" Text="Many websites refer to the Tamil legend of a submerged land off southern India, where the sangams took place. E.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_Sangams This lost land is often equated with Kumari Kandam or Mu/Lemuria.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apparantly this land was the site of a series of meetings (a sangam) that lasted 4400 years. This first sangam collected or created the oldest Tamil stories and poems. But all records were lost when the city flooded. The second sangam lasted 3700 years, but this city was also destroyed in a flood. The third sangam lasted 1850 years and gave us the Tamil literature we have today. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The claim is usually sourced to Nakkirar's &quot;Iraiyanar Akapporul&quot; commentary. Nakkirar was apparently a famous Tamil scholar. He wrote a commentary on ancient love poems, and his commentary mentioned the sangams and their location, duration, etc. I can find plenty of summaries of what he said online. But I cannot find a direct translation. I want to see exactly what he said, and not just an overview. The only translation of the &quot;Iraiyanar Akapporul&quot; that I can find online does not include his sangam comments. https://archive.org/details/dli.jZY9lup2kZl6TuXGlZQdjZpd.TVA_BOK_0009005/page/n5/mode/2up  I have Googled, asked on Quora and asked on Reddit (the mythology sub), but with no luck.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am not looking for Nakkirar's entire commentary. I only want the parts that deal with the sangams. Can anyone help?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29862" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10623" RevisionGUID="5a3a339e-9034-452e-b844-12561f1b94bc" CreationDate="2023-02-02T23:29:27.573" UserId="8708" Text="It may seem straight forward, Ionia is named after Ione, but Ionia is in Asia Minor and in context, he's listing places in ***Italy***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; However, lest it appear as though I have left Italy entirely&#xD;&#xA;&gt; untouched, it seems by no means absurd for me to exert my mind about&#xD;&#xA;&gt; those things which are less familiar...For who does not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; know that Janiculum was either named or founded by Janus? That Latium&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and Saturnia were founded by Saturn, Ardea by Danae, and Polycle by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the companions of Hercules? Who does not know that Pompeii was founded&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in Campania by Hercules himself...**Or that Ionia takes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; its name from Ione, the daughter of Aulochus**, whom they say Hercules&#xD;&#xA;&gt; slew, as she impudently sat down in the road?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I have searched but have been unable to find any information on an Ionia in Italy. I wondered if it could be a mistranslation, and Solinus actually said the Ionian Sea, so I checked the Latin text, but it says&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; regionem Ionicam ab Ione Aulochi filia&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am unaware of the Latin word &quot;regionem&quot; meaning Sea. Could it be used in that sense, and was probably meant here? Or was there an Ionian region of Italy I can't find information on?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29864" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10623" RevisionGUID="5a3a339e-9034-452e-b844-12561f1b94bc" CreationDate="2023-02-02T23:29:27.573" UserId="8708" Text="What Ionia does Solinus say is named after Ione, daughter of Aulochus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29865" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10623" RevisionGUID="5a3a339e-9034-452e-b844-12561f1b94bc" CreationDate="2023-02-02T23:29:27.573" UserId="8708" Text="|hercules|names|italy|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29866" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10624" RevisionGUID="120cb935-c1d9-4319-ad92-8f0f3cb14504" CreationDate="2023-02-03T11:57:41.913" UserId="9963" Text="Some time after posting that question, I asked the same question on another forum, and received the following translation from a Tamil poet called Vijayanarasimhan.  He goes into more detail in his excellent post: &#xD;&#xA;https://sangamtamilpoetry.quora.com/The-Legend-of-the-Three-Tamil-Sangams?ch=10&amp;oid=86056254&amp;share=c2548811&amp;srid=z9F0&amp;target_type=post&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is Vijayanarasimhan's translation of the relevant part of Nakkeerar's introduction to the Iraiyanaar Kalaviyal. Quote:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Pandiyars established three Sangams called Thalai Sangam, Idai Sangam, and Kadai Sangam.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Among them, those who were in the Thalai Sangam are Agathiyanaar, Thiripuram eritha virisadai kadavul (God Shivan), Kunru-erintha Murugavel (God Murugan), Murinjiyoor Mudinagarayar, Nithiyin Kizhavan (Guberan) and five hundred and forty-nine (549) other poets, including them a total of four thousand four hundred and forty-nine (4449) poets composed songs (in the assembly of the Sangam), so it is said.&#xD;&#xA;Their works include many Paripaadal, Muthunaarai, Muthukurugu, Kaliyaavirai, etc.  It is held that they ran the Sangam for a total of four thousand four hundred and forty (4440) years. They are said to be patronized by eighty-nine (89) (Pandiyan kings) from Kaai-cina-vazhuthi to Kadun-kon, of whom seven Pandiyan kings ascended the dais as poets. Madurai, which was (later) engulfed by the ocean, is said to be the location where they ran the Sangam and researched Tamil. Agathiyam is said to be their (grammar) book.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, those who were in the Idai Sangam are Agathiyanaar, Tholkaappiyanaar, Irunthaiyoor Karunkozhi Mosi, Velloorkkaappiyan, Sirupandarangan, Thiraiyan Maaran, Thuvarai Komaan,  Keeranthai and fifty-nine (59) other poets, including them a total of three thousand and seven hundred (3700) poets composed songs (in the assembly of the Sangam), so it is said.&#xD;&#xA;Their works include Kali, Kurugu, Vendaali, Viyaazha maalai akaval, etc. Agathiyam, Tholkaappiyam, Maapuraanam, Isai-nunukkam, Boothapuraanam, etc, are said to be their (grammar) books. &#xD;&#xA;It is said that they ran the Sangam for a total of three thousand and seven hundred (3700) years. They are said to be patronized by fifty-nine (59) (Pandiyan kings) from Venther Sezhiyan to Muda-thirumaaran, of whom five Pandiyan kings ascended the dais as poets. Kapaadapuram is said to be the location where they ran the Sangam and researched Tamil. Like ancient times, Pandiyan territory was engulfed by the ocean (again).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;					// Kalai Sangam (third)&#xD;&#xA;Now, those who were in the Kadai Sangam are Sirumethaaviyaar, Sentham-bhoothanaar, Arivudai-aranaar, Perunkunroor Kizhaar, Ilanthirumaaran, Madurai Aasiriyar Nallanthuvanaar, Madurai Maruthan-ilanaaganaar, Kanakkaayanaar Maganaar Nakkeeranaar and forty-nine (49) other poets, including them a total of four hundred and forty nine (449) poets composed songs (in the assembly of the Sangam), so it is said.&#xD;&#xA;Their works include Nedunthogai Naanooru, Kurunthogai Naanooru, Natrinai Naanooru, Pura-naanooru, Ainkuru-nooru, Pathitru-paththu, Nootraimbathu Kali, Ezhubathu Paripaadal, Koothu, Vari, Sitrisai, Perisai, etc. Agathiyam and Tholkaappiyam are said to be their (grammar) books.&#xD;&#xA;It is said that they ran the Sangam for a total of thousand eight hundred and fifty years (1850) years. They are said to be patronized by forty-nine (49) (Pandiyan kings) from Muda-thirumaran, who has recovered from ocean engulfing, to Ukkira Peruvazhuthi, of whom three Pandiyan kings ascended the dais as poets. Uththara-madurai is said to be the location where they ran the Sangam and researched Tamil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(End quote)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29868" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10624" RevisionGUID="2c21c99c-2b66-41c7-90a1-0331d0c2c318" CreationDate="2023-02-03T12:00:42.807" UserId="9963" Comment="deleted 30 characters in body" Text="Some time after posting that question, I asked the same question on another forum, and received the following translation from a Tamil poet called Vijayanarasimhan.  He goes into more detail in his excellent post: &#xD;&#xA;https://sangamtamilpoetry.quora.com/The-Legend-of-the-Three-Tamil-Sangams?ch=10&amp;oid=86056254&amp;share=c2548811&amp;srid=z9F0&amp;target_type=post&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is Vijayanarasimhan's translation of the relevant part of Nakkeerar's introduction to the Iraiyanaar Kalaviyal. Quote:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Pandiyars established three Sangams called Thalai Sangam, Idai Sangam, and Kadai Sangam.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Among them, those who were in the Thalai Sangam are Agathiyanaar, Thiripuram eritha virisadai kadavul (God Shivan), Kunru-erintha Murugavel (God Murugan), Murinjiyoor Mudinagarayar, Nithiyin Kizhavan (Guberan) and five hundred and forty-nine (549) other poets, including them a total of four thousand four hundred and forty-nine (4449) poets composed songs (in the assembly of the Sangam), so it is said.&#xD;&#xA;Their works include many Paripaadal, Muthunaarai, Muthukurugu, Kaliyaavirai, etc.  It is held that they ran the Sangam for a total of four thousand four hundred and forty (4440) years. They are said to be patronized by eighty-nine (89) (Pandiyan kings) from Kaai-cina-vazhuthi to Kadun-kon, of whom seven Pandiyan kings ascended the dais as poets. Madurai, which was (later) engulfed by the ocean, is said to be the location where they ran the Sangam and researched Tamil. Agathiyam is said to be their (grammar) book.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, those who were in the Idai Sangam are Agathiyanaar, Tholkaappiyanaar, Irunthaiyoor Karunkozhi Mosi, Velloorkkaappiyan, Sirupandarangan, Thiraiyan Maaran, Thuvarai Komaan,  Keeranthai and fifty-nine (59) other poets, including them a total of three thousand and seven hundred (3700) poets composed songs (in the assembly of the Sangam), so it is said.&#xD;&#xA;Their works include Kali, Kurugu, Vendaali, Viyaazha maalai akaval, etc. Agathiyam, Tholkaappiyam, Maapuraanam, Isai-nunukkam, Boothapuraanam, etc, are said to be their (grammar) books. &#xD;&#xA;It is said that they ran the Sangam for a total of three thousand and seven hundred (3700) years. They are said to be patronized by fifty-nine (59) (Pandiyan kings) from Venther Sezhiyan to Muda-thirumaaran, of whom five Pandiyan kings ascended the dais as poets. Kapaadapuram is said to be the location where they ran the Sangam and researched Tamil. Like ancient times, Pandiyan territory was engulfed by the ocean (again).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, those who were in the Kadai Sangam are Sirumethaaviyaar, Sentham-bhoothanaar, Arivudai-aranaar, Perunkunroor Kizhaar, Ilanthirumaaran, Madurai Aasiriyar Nallanthuvanaar, Madurai Maruthan-ilanaaganaar, Kanakkaayanaar Maganaar Nakkeeranaar and forty-nine (49) other poets, including them a total of four hundred and forty nine (449) poets composed songs (in the assembly of the Sangam), so it is said.&#xD;&#xA;Their works include Nedunthogai Naanooru, Kurunthogai Naanooru, Natrinai Naanooru, Pura-naanooru, Ainkuru-nooru, Pathitru-paththu, Nootraimbathu Kali, Ezhubathu Paripaadal, Koothu, Vari, Sitrisai, Perisai, etc. Agathiyam and Tholkaappiyam are said to be their (grammar) books.&#xD;&#xA;It is said that they ran the Sangam for a total of thousand eight hundred and fifty years (1850) years. They are said to be patronized by forty-nine (49) (Pandiyan kings) from Muda-thirumaran, who has recovered from ocean engulfing, to Ukkira Peruvazhuthi, of whom three Pandiyan kings ascended the dais as poets. Uththara-madurai is said to be the location where they ran the Sangam and researched Tamil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(End quote)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29869" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10625" RevisionGUID="ba5da8a9-026e-4618-a623-6b890dc0b176" CreationDate="2023-02-03T21:46:21.567" UserId="9967" Text="Found the essay! Somehow my memory embellished it. The original quote:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Imagine a devoted cultist of Tengrism, who sometimes gets invited by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; company bosses to harangue the workforce on how the universe is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; created by a pure snow-white goose flying over an endless ocean, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; how if you don’t make the appropriate ritual honks to this cosmic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; goose you’re failing in your moral duty. But every time she gives this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; spiel, she always gets the same questions. Exactly how big is this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; goose? Surely the goose must have to land sometimes? Geese hatch in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; litters – what happened to the other goslings? Something must be wrong&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with these people. Why don’t they just accept the doctrine? Why do&#xD;&#xA;&gt; they hate the goose? We need a name for their sickness. Call it Goose&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Reluctance, and next time someone doesn’t jump to attention whenever&#xD;&#xA;&gt; you speak, you’ll know why.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-From [this piece][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://samkriss.com/2020/06/10/white-skin-black-squares/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29871" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10626" RevisionGUID="f6cbcf48-5c8c-4c1c-be1c-8036fad3a9c4" CreationDate="2023-02-04T21:43:00.303" UserId="7106" Text="According to your own finding. It is a political essay in Sam Kriss blog, titled [*from White skin, black squares*][1] (2020).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It refers to Turkic-Mongol chief deity [Tengri][2], according to some versions described as a white goose traveling to the rivers of time. In Wikipedia the references lead to the following story:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In ancient Turkish beliefs, Tangri (God) Kara Han is a pure, white goose that flies constantly over an endless expanse of water (time). From beneath the water Ak Ana (&quot;White Mother&quot;) calls out to him saying &quot;Create&quot;. To overcome his loneliness, Kara Han creates Er Kishi, who is not as pure or as white as he is. Together they set up the world. Er Kishi becomes the lord of the Underworld and strives to mislead people and draw them into its darkness. Kara Han assumes the name Tangri Ulgen and withdraws into Heaven from which he tries to provide people with guidance through envoys and sacred creatures that he sends among them. The Ak Tangris occupy the fifth level of Heaven. Shaman priests who want to reach Tangri Ulgen never get further than this level, where they convey their wishes to the divine envoys. Returns to earth or to the human level take place in a goose-shaped vessel.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This text is from *Creation Myths from Central Asia to Anatolia&#xD;&#xA;Images from the Creation Myths of the Turks* published by Yapı Kredi Art Galleries for Can Göknil exhibitions in Istanbul, Izmir and Adana in 1997.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://samkriss.com/2020/06/10/white-skin-black-squares/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tengri" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29873" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10627" RevisionGUID="5e8e03e3-b875-4790-930d-8ecb2f01aab4" CreationDate="2023-02-05T06:47:10.813" UserId="2682" Text="In 1629, Claude de Saumaise, who also styled himself by a Latinised form of his name, as Claudius Salmasius, wrote a commentary on Solinus's *Polyhistor* text to which you are referring. He was just as puzzled as you are about this reference to an Ionian region of Italy, and so spends a good chunk of paragraph, dealing with the exact-same selection of text that you have highlighted in an attempt to explain it, in which he starts off by stating, simply, that, &quot;**I know of no Ionian region** [*regionem Ionicam*] **in Italy.**&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He then goes on to cite the African writer Martianus Capella &quot;who, when he wrote this passage, changed 'the Ionian region [*regionem Ionicam*]' into 'the Ionian Sea [*mare Ionium*]'&quot;, apparently having thought along similar lines as yourself regarding possible meaningful solutions to the quandary. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From what de Saumaise goes on to say, however, he clearly thinks it to be a much bigger mistake than this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thus he writes: *he gave the same name to Ionius, for Ione killed the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; daughter of Aulochus, who was besieging the highways, by robbery.* It&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is indeed published here and there in Martianus, *he gave the same&#xD;&#xA;&gt; name to Ionia*, but all his written copies read *Ionio*. Solinus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wanted something else. Stephanus says that they want it to be called&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ionium from Ionius Italus, others from Ionius Illyrius. Servius says&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that Ionius was king of that island against Illyricum. None of this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; applies to the Ionian region. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Moreover, who is that *Naulochus* whose daughter was Ione, or, as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; other books call him, *Aulochus*? In the written books of Martianus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Capella it is said *Autoclus*. It could be Αὕτικλος, as Οἵνοκλος,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ἄνδροκλος. However, I think it would be better to write *the daughter&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Autolycus*, who was a distinguished thief known from fables, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; had a daughter similar to himself, Ione, who rode the roads&#xD;&#xA;&gt; impetuously. Ἰόνη was one of the Nereids according to Apollodorus. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Upon the Ionian region, however, still we hesitate. What if Solinus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; had written *Chonica*, and *chone*? The Chonic region, ἡ Χωνικὴ, from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the city of Chone in Italy, whence the Chones themselves were called&#xD;&#xA;&gt; χῶνες. Some make them the people of Oenotria, others separate them&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from Oenotria. Strabo's book VI reports from the opinion of some, that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Philoctetes founded a city, Chone, in Italy, from which the people are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; χῶνες. Aristotle says that he held them τὸ ωξὸς τὴν Ἰαπύγιαν καὶ τὸν&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ἰώνιον. Lycophron calls Χωνίαν their country...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; This is the Chonic region of Solinus: whose name is asserted as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; originating from Chone, the daughter of Autolycus. We noted above that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Ionians came to Italy and founded cities according to Lycophron&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and Strabo, but no one has written that any region was named Ionia by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; them, nor does Solinus say this. But it is a light and easy slip to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; make *Ionicam* out of *Chonica*, especially to one who does not know&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Chonica...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That is my own translation of de Saumaise's Latin text, excerpting the portion of his commentary relevant to your question, for the print publication of which, see below.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Abstracted from p. 42 of Vol. 1 of *Plinianae Exercitationes in Caii Iulii Solini Polyhistora* at the Bayerische Staatsbibliothek, obtained via the Münchener DigitalisierungsZentrum (MDZ) Digitale Bibliothek.&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As de Saumaise notes, certain versions of the *Polyhistor* refer to Ione's father as Naulochus, rather than Aulochus, and he has his ingenious ideas, as above, for how to make sense of the otherwise completely obscure *Aulochus*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***N***aulochus, however, is more intelligible to me as quite likely the eponym of the ancient city of the same name on Sicily's northeastern coast, famous for being the scene of a naval battle between Sextus Pompeius and Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa during the Roman civil war in the 30s BC leading up to Octavian (later Augustus Caesar) taking control of the Roman empire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Paris 1847 C.L.F. Panckoucke edition of the *Polyhistor*, which has Ione's father as *Naulochus*, entitles this section of the text &quot;*De Italia*&quot; (&quot;About Italy&quot;), so as you observe, indeed this *regionem Ionicam* contextually should be a place in Italy. De Saumaise's commentary appears to completely dismiss this as a possibility, whence his explanations that boil the matter down to scribal errors or such.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The closest I could arrive at an alternative position on this would be essentially that perhaps what is intended here is the coastline of Italy bounding the Ionian Sea, which is to say the &quot;sole&quot; of Italy's &quot;boot.&quot; Calabria, the &quot;toe&quot; of Italy, abuts the corner of Sicily in which the city of Naulochus would have been located. At least two towns in the region, Gioiosa Ionica and Roccella Ionica, bear the idea in their names.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Spadafora Map_][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Supposedly ancient Naulochus was somewhere near what is now Spadafora.*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The shores on this side of the country are referred to at present day as its *costa ionica*, &quot;Ionian coast&quot;, but I don't know that this would have been a normal way to think of it in ancient times nor whether this would have been equivalent to *regionem Ionicam*.     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ugQlf.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/B2VIE.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29875" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10626" RevisionGUID="c37ebe58-df8d-4207-abdb-5749a7d4379c" CreationDate="2023-02-05T12:15:57.473" UserId="7106" Comment="added 35 characters in body" Text="Just to provide a full answer: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to your own finding. It is a political essay in Sam Kriss blog, titled [*from White skin, black squares*][1] (2020).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It refers to Turkic-Mongol chief deity [Tengri][2], according to some versions described as a white goose traveling to the rivers of time. In Wikipedia the references lead to the following story:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In ancient Turkish beliefs, Tangri (God) Kara Han is a pure, white goose that flies constantly over an endless expanse of water (time). From beneath the water Ak Ana (&quot;White Mother&quot;) calls out to him saying &quot;Create&quot;. To overcome his loneliness, Kara Han creates Er Kishi, who is not as pure or as white as he is. Together they set up the world. Er Kishi becomes the lord of the Underworld and strives to mislead people and draw them into its darkness. Kara Han assumes the name Tangri Ulgen and withdraws into Heaven from which he tries to provide people with guidance through envoys and sacred creatures that he sends among them. The Ak Tangris occupy the fifth level of Heaven. Shaman priests who want to reach Tangri Ulgen never get further than this level, where they convey their wishes to the divine envoys. Returns to earth or to the human level take place in a goose-shaped vessel.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This text is from *Creation Myths from Central Asia to Anatolia&#xD;&#xA;Images from the Creation Myths of the Turks* published by Yapı Kredi Art Galleries for Can Göknil exhibitions in Istanbul, Izmir and Adana in 1997.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://samkriss.com/2020/06/10/white-skin-black-squares/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tengri" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29876" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10628" RevisionGUID="b7c8a7d5-d2ce-49f6-acda-f31810ec1c55" CreationDate="2023-02-06T00:37:58.923" UserId="5806" Text="Herakles ( ΗΡΑΚΛΗΣ ) as a word derives from ( ΗΡΑ ) which means Hera and ( ΚΛΕΟΣ ) which means glory. The word ΚΛΕΟΣ is used in many names. For instance:&#xD;&#xA;( ΚΛΕΟΠΑΤΡΑ ) Cleopatra, ΚΛΕΟΣ + ΠΑΤΡΙΣ means Glory of the Country, what a name for the Egyptian queen!&#xD;&#xA;The respective male name is ( ΠΑΤΡΟΚΛΟΣ ) ΠΑΤΡΙΣ + ΚΛΕΟΣ and it means the same thing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So ΚΛΕΟΣ means glory and ΗΡΑΚΛΗΣ ΗΡΑ + ΚΛΕΟΣ = HERA + GLORY, HERAKLES means the Glory of Hera. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The name might have been a mocking to Hera according to some sources, but I don't think so. This seems like a misunderstanding of Roman authors. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What I believe, according to Greek Ancient Religion and Mythology, is that the name was given in order to soothe Hera's wrath, not to challenge her. Hera's wrath was not something a mortal would like to cause and Alkmene ( ΑΛΚΜΗΝΗ ) had suffered enough. Alkmene was innocent, she thought she made love with her husband, so Hera focused her wrath on the kid, but still Alkmene was a mother, so she did her best to show respect to Hera, trying to save her son from her wrath. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29878" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10629" RevisionGUID="8015f35d-a603-4c67-bb1c-60c37f4c6544" CreationDate="2023-02-06T00:49:16.253" UserId="5806" Text="Aphrodite seems like a goddess that was added afterwards in Greek Mythology.&#xD;&#xA;It seems that she was added to represent eastern goddesses &#xD;&#xA;like Astarte and Inanna-Isthar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Astarte][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Inanna][2] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hera was not the first wife of Zeus. Metis was. Later on Hera took the place because it was the only way she would make love with Zeus. It was that simple.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Goddess of love can not become the mother figure, the perfect wife figure of stability caress and fierce wrath to protect her family. It was Hera for a good reason. Hera was feared, Hera was respected. So she was symbolizing the holiness of marriage. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aphrodite could not play that role.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://%20https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astarte&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inanna" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29880" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10630" RevisionGUID="8e4739f8-00cb-4062-a7f0-5f91c940bdc6" CreationDate="2023-02-06T13:27:58.570" UserId="7106" Text="While some of the answers here are on point, I would like to add a bit of complexity. According to Homeric poems, Hera is not considered the queen of gods and mortals, this association appeared in later myths. See [theoi article on Hera][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...after the marriage with Zeus, she was treated by the Olympian gods with the same reverence as her husband. (Il. xv. 85, &amp;c.; comp. i. 532, &amp;c., iv. 60, &amp;c.) Zeus himself, according to Homer, listened to her counsels, and communicated his secrets to her rather than to other gods (xvi. 458, i. 547). Hera also thinks herself justified in censuring Zeus when he consults others without her knowing it (i. 540, &amp;c.); but she is, notwithstanding, far inferior to him in power; she must obey him unconditionally, and, like the other gods, she is chastised by him when she has offended him (iv. 56, viii. 427, 463). **Hera therefore is not, like Zeus, the queen of gods and men, but simply the wife of the supreme god. The idea of her being the queen of heaven, with regal wealth and power, is of a much later date.** (Hygin. Fab. 92; Ov. Fast. vi. 27, Heroid. xvi. 81; Eustath. ad Hom. p. 81.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Emphasis mine&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Hera.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29887" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3114" RevisionGUID="f02057cb-7930-42aa-a930-f06501b4c631" CreationDate="2023-02-08T09:06:35.797" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="29888" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="3114" RevisionGUID="c5aa5d7a-01be-4be0-b9ed-3a276bf8dff8" CreationDate="2023-02-08T22:36:37.317" UserId="398" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;cmw&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="29903" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6480" RevisionGUID="2b7892fa-d467-4239-b723-4605ded88f19" CreationDate="2023-02-09T23:07:00.830" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="29904" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2723" RevisionGUID="91538780-505f-4012-850b-45a16039bbad" CreationDate="2023-02-10T11:08:25.940" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="29905" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10636" RevisionGUID="97da5be7-f4d6-4232-ab1c-65d0a1125130" CreationDate="2023-02-12T10:42:46.983" UserId="9992" Text="Does Homer give any clue as to what time of year or even the specific date that events in the *Iliad* occur? I don't mean the absolute chronology (e.g., 1184 BCE or whatever) or span of time (e.g., +9 days for the plague), but rather the time within the year (e.g., the first day of autumn, 12th June, etc.). " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29907" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10636" RevisionGUID="97da5be7-f4d6-4232-ab1c-65d0a1125130" CreationDate="2023-02-12T10:42:46.983" UserId="9992" Text="Date (time of year) of the Illiad?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29908" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10636" RevisionGUID="97da5be7-f4d6-4232-ab1c-65d0a1125130" CreationDate="2023-02-12T10:42:46.983" UserId="9992" Text="|homer|iliad|calendar-dates|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29911" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10638" RevisionGUID="def6d040-870e-46da-ae1a-d0dd74ceda4a" CreationDate="2023-02-17T02:10:20.543" UserId="6925" Text="I've found a lot of creatures that kill, but not one that compels someone to commit suicide. Does anything like this exist?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29913" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10638" RevisionGUID="def6d040-870e-46da-ae1a-d0dd74ceda4a" CreationDate="2023-02-17T02:10:20.543" UserId="6925" Text="Is there a mythological creature that causes its viewer to commit suicide?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29914" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10638" RevisionGUID="def6d040-870e-46da-ae1a-d0dd74ceda4a" CreationDate="2023-02-17T02:10:20.543" UserId="6925" Text="|mythical-creatures|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29917" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10639" RevisionGUID="4d1ab760-9dff-4dd2-b069-24f128a5f8dd" CreationDate="2023-02-17T20:51:42.557" UserId="10013" Text="I'm from Romania, a country where you fill like you are in a trash can in urban zones, but feels like a fairy tale in rural zones. In school we learn about fairy tales(which is a species of literature and it is very important). Many of them have an unknown author, being transmitted from generation to generation. I remembered randomly about that and I remembered that many of them have as antagonist something called &quot;zmeu&quot;. It is very similar to a dragon, but the fairy tales never describe him phisically, but there is another story about something called &quot;balaur cu sapte capete&quot;, which translates to &quot;monster/dragon with 7 heads&quot;, that describes the same thing as the &quot;zmeu&quot;. Now this is very similar to the hydra from Greek mythology which was a giant reptile(like a dragon) with 9 heads instead of seven. In one of the stories when the hero cuts a head of the &quot;zmeu&quot; with his sword, it regenerates. The hydra grows 2 heads when one is cut. There is also the Chinese dragon we all know, the Hebrew Leviathan, the giant sea serpent from the Bible. It is clear that all those myths have a common ancestor, a source of inspiration, something they tried to symbolize trough them. Some say that it is a representation of humans fear of dangerous reptiles like snakes, crocodiles, poisonous lizards, etc. But I think there is more, I think the people that thought about these creatures centuries and millennia ago wanted to illustrate an idea. Maybe they wanted to show a human negative trait like greed or envy(that's what I read about Leviathan) or evilness and cruelty. What do you think? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29919" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10639" RevisionGUID="4d1ab760-9dff-4dd2-b069-24f128a5f8dd" CreationDate="2023-02-17T20:51:42.557" UserId="10013" Text="What is a reptile with many heads meant to symbolize?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29920" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10639" RevisionGUID="4d1ab760-9dff-4dd2-b069-24f128a5f8dd" CreationDate="2023-02-17T20:51:42.557" UserId="10013" Text="|greek|symbolism|bible|dragons|fairy-tales|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29921" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10639" RevisionGUID="6c9dec08-096b-4c84-8b54-7dc4141c57eb" CreationDate="2023-02-17T22:06:50.803" UserId="10013" Comment="added 8 characters in body" Text="I'm from Romania, a country where you fill like you are in a trash can in urban zones, but feels like a fairy tale in rural zones. In school we learn about fairy tales(which is a species of literature and it is very important). Many of them have an unknown author, being transmitted from generation to generation. I remembered randomly about that and I remembered that many of them have as antagonist something called &quot;zmeu&quot;. It is very similar to a dragon, but the fairy tales never describe him phisically, but there is another story about something called &quot;balaur cu sapte capete&quot;, which translates to &quot;monster/dragon with 7 heads&quot;, that describes the same thing as the &quot;zmeu&quot;. Now this is very similar to the hydra from Greek mythology which was a giant reptile(like a dragon) with 9 heads instead of seven. In one of the stories when the hero cuts a head of the &quot;zmeu&quot; with his sword, it regenerates. The hydra grows 2 heads when one is cut. There is also the Chinese dragon we all know, the Hebrew Leviathan, the giant sea serpent from the Bible. It is clear that all those myths have a common ancestor, a source of inspiration, something they tried to symbolize trough them. Some say that it is a representation of humans fear of dangerous reptiles like snakes, crocodiles, poisonous lizards, etc. But I think there is more, I think the people that thought about these creatures centuries and millennia ago wanted to illustrate an idea. Maybe they wanted to show a human negative trait like greed or envy(that's what I read about Leviathan) or evilness and cruelty. What do mythologists think?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29925" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10641" RevisionGUID="cf807ba5-2e0e-48ee-b964-8ad53412f664" CreationDate="2023-02-21T02:29:27.443" UserId="10020" Text="Macaria, daughter of Herakles, sacrifices her life in order to save her siblings in Euripides' &quot;The Children of Herakles.&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29927" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10642" RevisionGUID="bdc88b47-cd0a-4e1a-9690-2a53f547ea08" CreationDate="2023-02-21T16:41:01.713" UserId="7106" Text="Antigone, daughter of Oedipus. After Antigone brother, Polynices, king of Thebes gets killed, King Creon takes the throne and orders his people to not bury nor mourn Polynices. Antigone defies this order and gets buried alive in a tomb. Creon son, who was in love with Antigone kill himself, and her mother, wife of Creon, follows them afterwards. In this way, Antigone not only sacrifices herself to do the right traditions but also shatters Creon's household. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29938" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5709" RevisionGUID="3104d7e0-279d-4e68-b9e8-3920b48c3620" CreationDate="2023-02-22T23:04:25.640" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="29939" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="10478" RevisionGUID="56a1eaa1-ae62-477a-9538-f672582a46c3" CreationDate="2023-02-24T21:59:22.480" UserId="3208" Comment="132" />
  <row Id="29941" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10478" RevisionGUID="f8622334-f98f-448a-8a49-e13e542a8aea" CreationDate="2023-02-25T03:00:52.920" UserId="3208" Comment="added 281 characters in body" Text="There is an Irish myth in which a foreign king comes by the sea and lands in Ireland where he encounters a princess and they dally for one afternoon and he tells her, &quot;You shall be born of a king&quot; and he gives her his ring as a momento, then departs. Eventually she gives birth to an important king. What is this myth?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the story the princess rejects many suitors, but when she meets the strange prince from the sea, he says to her &quot;Shall we have an hour of lovemaking?&quot; and she agrees and asks &quot;How is that all the princes of my land have asked for my hand in marriage, but you possess me so?&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29942" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10478" RevisionGUID="f5cb6736-29d7-434a-a70c-2039f8c3e023" CreationDate="2023-02-25T11:44:42.690" UserId="3208" Comment="added 243 characters in body" Text="There is an Irish quasi-historical myth in which a foreign king comes by the sea and lands in Ireland where he encounters a princess and they dally for one afternoon and he tells her, &quot;You shall be born of a king&quot; and he gives her his ring as a momento and tells her to give the ring to her child if it should be a son, then departs. Eventually she gives birth to an important king. What is this myth?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the story the princess rejects many suitors, but when she meets the strange prince from the sea, he says to her &quot;Shall we have an hour of lovemaking?&quot; and she agrees and asks &quot;How is that all the princes of my land have asked for my hand in marriage, but you possess me so?&quot; Immediately after the encounter he departs so they are together only for an afternoon.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that in the Irish histories, this story is represented as a true story and the descendants of this supposed union are actual high kings of Ireland." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29943" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10644" RevisionGUID="25c2b55f-6cf6-49d6-b41d-ed685ad7d06e" CreationDate="2023-03-01T20:08:42.667" UserId="8896" Text="Well I found a known kind of creature native to Cambodia, they are known as Arakh. These spirits take possession of a victim and drives them to kill themselves. Only an exorcism can get rid of the creature and save the victim.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hope this helps&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://occult-world.com/arakh/  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29945" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="7957" RevisionGUID="66ae62ff-f462-4983-a336-01aea4bdbd2d" CreationDate="2023-03-01T20:20:36.017" UserDisplayName="user10066" Comment="Add related tag " Text="|greek|sacrifice|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29946" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="7957" RevisionGUID="66ae62ff-f462-4983-a336-01aea4bdbd2d" CreationDate="2023-03-01T20:20:36.017" Comment="Proposed by 10066 approved by 53 edit id of 1910" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29947" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10645" RevisionGUID="b8f976fd-c32c-4561-83ed-b628f9650e4f" CreationDate="2023-03-01T20:39:30.013" UserDisplayName="user10066" Text="By Chaos I mean the primordial, undifferentiated substance from which everything begins in Hesiod's Theogony.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there analogous primordial, undifferentiated, divine substances or &quot;beings&quot; in other cultures, perhaps with different names?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29949" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10645" RevisionGUID="b8f976fd-c32c-4561-83ed-b628f9650e4f" CreationDate="2023-03-01T20:39:30.013" UserDisplayName="user10066" Text="Are there analogues of Chaos in mythologies other than Greek?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29950" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10645" RevisionGUID="b8f976fd-c32c-4561-83ed-b628f9650e4f" CreationDate="2023-03-01T20:39:30.013" UserDisplayName="user10066" Text="|greek|comparative|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29952" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10646" RevisionGUID="c5436f15-5fb1-4d4d-a58b-825a63b47cf4" CreationDate="2023-03-02T03:10:02.163" UserId="398" Text="&gt; primordial, undifferentiated substance from which everything begins&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, the Cosmic or [Primordial Soup](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primordial_soup)?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Primordial soup, also known as, primordial goo, primordial ooze, prebiotic soup and prebiotic broth, is the hypothetical set of conditions present on the Earth around 3.7 to 4.0 billion years ago. It is an aspect of the heterotrophic theory (also known as the Oparin–Haldane hypothesis) concerning the origin of life, first proposed by Alexander Oparin in 1924, and J. B. S. Haldane in 1929.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  As formulated by Oparin, in the primitive Earth's surface layers, carbon, hydrogen, water vapour, and ammonia reacted to form the first organic compounds. The concept of a primordial soup gained credence in 1953 when the &quot;Miller–Urey experiment&quot; used a highly reduced mixture of gases—methane, ammonia and hydrogen—to form basic organic monomers, such as amino acids.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can think of this metaphor as a myth of sorts, especially since before it was a &quot;scientific hypothesis&quot; it existed as the *primordia materia* in gnostic and alchemical works. But you might be looking for something a bit more ancient.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;but you're probably looking for something more ancient.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think one obvious example is the &quot;deep&quot; in Biblical and other Near Eastern mythologies. This is represented as water, and probably really literally meant the ocean before land. You have to imagine how unimaginably mysterious the ocean must have been before modern video equipment documented it, especially since it *still* is rather mysterious.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So in Genesis (1.2-5), the &quot;primordial soup&quot; is the &quot;waters&quot; upon which Yahweh hovers:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similar myths concerning land from water are found in [Tungusic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tungusic_creation_myth) and [Finnish](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A4in%C3%A4m%C3%B6inen) myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Chinese myths also have this origin in the story of [Pangu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pangu). From Wikipedia:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the beginning, there was nothing and the universe was in a featureless, formless primordial state. This primordial state coalesced into a cosmic egg for about 18,000 years. Within it, the perfectly opposed principles of yin and yang became balanced and Pangu emerged (or woke up) from the egg. Pangu inside the cosmic egg symbolizes Taiji." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29954" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10645" RevisionGUID="8d1a8101-6201-4a2f-a3da-77b9fe2287d5" CreationDate="2023-03-02T09:21:57.223" UserDisplayName="user10066" Comment="added 1026 characters in body" Text="By Chaos I mean the primordial, undifferentiated substance from which everything begins in [Hesiod's Theogony](https://chs.harvard.edu/primary-source/hesiod-theogony-sb/):&#xD;&#xA;&gt;First it was Chaos, and next broad-bosomed Earth, ever secure seat of all the immortals, who inhabit the peaks of snow-capped Olympus, and dark dim Tartaros in a recess of Earth having-broad-ways, 120 and Eros [Love], who is most beautiful among immortal gods, Eros that relaxes the limbs, and in the breasts of all gods and all men, subdues their reason and prudent counsel. But from Chaos were born Erebos and black Night; and from Night again sprang forth Aether and Day, 125 whom she bore after having conceived, by union with Erebos in love. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most standard interpretation is indeed a *void* or *gap*, but I'm referring to the interpretation by a close contemporary, Pherecydes of Syros, noted by Kirk, Raven &amp; Schofield in their book [*The Presocratic Philosophers*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_(cosmogony)#Etymology): &quot;Pherecydes of Syros (fl. 6th century BC) interprets chaos as water, like something formless that can be differentiated.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there analogous primordial, undifferentiated, divine substances or &quot;beings&quot; in other cultures, perhaps with different names?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29956" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10647" RevisionGUID="1b75b6f3-4410-47cf-a3a3-1c37bda21b9a" CreationDate="2023-03-02T10:32:59.043" UserDisplayName="user10066" Text="From [the Wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melqart#Etymology) on Melkart: &#xD;&#xA;&gt;To the Greeks and the Romans, **who identified Melqart with Hercules**, he was often distinguished as the Tyrian Hercules.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What attributes did they share for this identification? Or was it instead a &quot;random&quot; identification?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29958" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10647" RevisionGUID="1b75b6f3-4410-47cf-a3a3-1c37bda21b9a" CreationDate="2023-03-02T10:32:59.043" UserDisplayName="user10066" Text="Why was phoenician Melqart identified with Heracles?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29959" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10647" RevisionGUID="1b75b6f3-4410-47cf-a3a3-1c37bda21b9a" CreationDate="2023-03-02T10:32:59.043" UserDisplayName="user10066" Text="|greek|comparative|phoenician|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29960" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10646" RevisionGUID="b77a1a89-45d7-42ed-b911-e291d1aa406f" CreationDate="2023-03-02T12:46:15.327" UserId="398" Comment="edited body" Text="&gt; primordial, undifferentiated substance from which everything begins&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, the Cosmic or [Primordial Soup](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primordial_soup)?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Primordial soup, also known as, primordial goo, primordial ooze, prebiotic soup and prebiotic broth, is the hypothetical set of conditions present on the Earth around 3.7 to 4.0 billion years ago. It is an aspect of the heterotrophic theory (also known as the Oparin–Haldane hypothesis) concerning the origin of life, first proposed by Alexander Oparin in 1924, and J. B. S. Haldane in 1929.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  As formulated by Oparin, in the primitive Earth's surface layers, carbon, hydrogen, water vapour, and ammonia reacted to form the first organic compounds. The concept of a primordial soup gained credence in 1953 when the &quot;Miller–Urey experiment&quot; used a highly reduced mixture of gases—methane, ammonia and hydrogen—to form basic organic monomers, such as amino acids.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You can think of this metaphor as a myth of sorts, especially since before it was a &quot;scientific hypothesis&quot; it existed as the *primordia materia* in gnostic and alchemical works. But you might be looking for something a bit more ancient.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But you're probably looking for something more ancient.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think one obvious example is the &quot;deep&quot; in Biblical and other Near Eastern mythologies. This is represented as water, and probably really literally meant the ocean before land. You have to imagine how unimaginably mysterious the ocean must have been before modern video equipment documented it, especially since it *still* is rather mysterious.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So in Genesis (1.2-5), the &quot;primordial soup&quot; is the &quot;waters&quot; upon which Yahweh hovers:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similar myths concerning land from water are found in [Tungusic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tungusic_creation_myth) and [Finnish](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A4in%C3%A4m%C3%B6inen) myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Chinese myths also have this origin in the story of [Pangu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pangu). From Wikipedia:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the beginning, there was nothing and the universe was in a featureless, formless primordial state. This primordial state coalesced into a cosmic egg for about 18,000 years. Within it, the perfectly opposed principles of yin and yang became balanced and Pangu emerged (or woke up) from the egg. Pangu inside the cosmic egg symbolizes Taiji." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29961" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10648" RevisionGUID="4aee88a1-18a9-48f2-9a9f-75d433689c49" CreationDate="2023-03-02T13:24:34.673" UserId="398" Text="Actual reasons why are never clearly stated, but Corinne Bonnet offers the best theory that it was the lion iconography that led to their identification. From her article in the Encyclopedia of Religion (vol. 9):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In many Cypriot cult sites, a Heraklean iconography, similar to that present on the Syrian coast (Amirth) since the sixth to fifth centuries BCE, is present. It may allude to Melqart, but probably also alludes to other cults, including Reshef /Apollo and some anonym Cypriot god, as if the Heraklean shape were a standard male god iconography. **Cyprus was thus a crucial place for the iconographical assimilation between Melqart, the royal god, perhaps associated with the lion (as in the Eastern iconography of the smiting king or god), and the Greek Herakles, who became the god with the leonte, the bow and the club.** The Idalion cup (eighth century BCE) is the best illustration of this assimilation process." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29963" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10649" RevisionGUID="b4e531ba-ae72-48e4-b35d-f1d2c68d91a2" CreationDate="2023-03-02T13:49:52.767" UserId="1317" Text="In Norse mythology, there is **[Ginnungagap](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ginnungagap)**, the &quot;Yawning Void&quot; into which the world was created. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the _[Gylfaginning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gylfaginning)_ &#xD;&#xA; ([translation](https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre04.htm)), in the north of Ginnungagap was the cold [Niflheim](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niflheim), in the south the hot [Muspelheim](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muspelheim),&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; but Ginnungagap was as mild as windless air, and when the breath of heat met the rime, so that it melted and dripped, life was quickened from the yeast-drops, by the power of that which sent the heat, and became a man's form. And that man is named Ymir, but the Rime-Giants call him Aurgelimir;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The three brothers Odin, Viri, and Ve slew Ymir and &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; They took Ymir and bore him into the middle of the Yawning Void, and made of him the earth: of his blood the sea and the waters; the land was made of his flesh, and the crags of his bones; gravel and stones they fashioned from his teeth and his grinders and from those bones that were broken.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After the creation, Ginnungagap appears to have been replaced with the realm of the Frost Giants under the second root of Yggdrasil.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Three roots of the tree uphold it and stand exceeding broad: one is among the Aesir; another among the Rime-Giants, in that place where aforetime was the Yawning Void; the third stands over Niflheim, and under that root is Hvergelmir, and Nídhöggr gnaws the root from below. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29965" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10642" RevisionGUID="37eb52f0-e330-421d-b2a5-e91c973a3c1a" CreationDate="2023-03-02T18:08:39.817" UserId="7106" Comment="added 5 characters in body" Text="Antigone, daughter of Oedipus. After Antigone brother, Polynices, king of Thebes gets killed, King Creon takes the throne and orders his people to not bury nor mourn Polynices. Antigone defies this order and gets buried alive in a tomb. Creon son, who was in love with Antigone kills himself, and her mother, the wife of Creon, follows them afterwards. In this way, Antigone not only sacrifices herself to do the right traditions but also shatters Creon's household. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29966" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10645" RevisionGUID="a5bea046-7cc8-4600-9b6d-9468aeac00fe" CreationDate="2023-03-02T18:10:23.100" UserDisplayName="user10066" Comment="added 4 characters in body; edited tags" Text="By Chaos I mean the primordial, undifferentiated substance from which everything begins in [Hesiod's Theogony](https://chs.harvard.edu/primary-source/hesiod-theogony-sb/):&#xD;&#xA;&gt;First it was Chaos, and next broad-bosomed Earth, ever secure seat of all the immortals, who inhabit the peaks of snow-capped Olympus, and dark dim Tartaros in a recess of Earth having-broad-ways, 120 and Eros [Love], who is most beautiful among immortal gods, Eros that relaxes the limbs, and in the breasts of all gods and all men, subdues their reason and prudent counsel. But from Chaos were born Erebos and black Night; and from Night again sprang forth Aether and Day, 125 whom she bore after having conceived, by union with Erebos in love. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most standard interpretation is indeed a *void* or *gap*, but I'm referring to the interpretation by a close contemporary, Pherecydes of Syros, noted by Kirk, Raven &amp; Schofield in their book [*The Presocratic Philosophers*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_(cosmogony)#Etymology): &quot;Pherecydes of Syros (fl. 6th century BC) interprets **chaos as water, like something formless that can be differentiated**.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there analogous primordial, undifferentiated, divine substances or &quot;beings&quot; in other cultures, perhaps with different names?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29967" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="10645" RevisionGUID="a5bea046-7cc8-4600-9b6d-9468aeac00fe" CreationDate="2023-03-02T18:10:23.100" UserDisplayName="user10066" Comment="added 4 characters in body; edited tags" Text="|greek|comparative|creation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29968" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="10639" RevisionGUID="2616f780-b013-49fb-b735-4699f69fd677" CreationDate="2023-03-02T18:36:35.290" UserDisplayName="user10066" Comment="I think tags are now better " Text="|comparative|mythical-creatures|symbolism|dragons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29969" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="10639" RevisionGUID="2616f780-b013-49fb-b735-4699f69fd677" CreationDate="2023-03-02T18:36:35.290" Comment="Proposed by 10066 approved by 53 edit id of 1911" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29970" PostHistoryTypeId="52" PostId="10647" RevisionGUID="98c0f5f0-06f9-4257-84e5-3f3bd8c040eb" CreationDate="2023-03-02T18:59:22.157" />
  <row Id="29971" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10639" RevisionGUID="c44b8468-c79a-4395-9e69-ba2b6dbaaf2d" CreationDate="2023-03-02T22:54:08.513" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar &amp; improved formatting" Text="I'm from Romania, a country where you fill like you are in a trash can in urban zones, but feels like a fairy tale in rural zones. In school we learn about fairy tales (which is a species of very important literature). Many of them have an unknown author, being transmitted from generation to generation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I remembered randomly about this, and that in many of them the antagonist is something called &quot;zmeu&quot;. It is very similar to a dragon, but the fairy tales never describe him physically, although there is another story about something called &quot;balaur cu sapte capete&quot;, which translates to &quot;monster/dragon with 7 heads&quot;, which describes the same thing as the &quot;zmeu&quot;. Now this is very similar to the Hydra from Greek mythology, which was a giant dragon-like reptile with 9 heads instead of seven. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In one of the stories, when the hero cuts off a head of the &quot;zmeu&quot; with his sword, it regenerates. The Hydra grows 2 heads when one is cut off. There is also the Chinese dragon we all know, the Hebrew Leviathan, the giant sea serpent from the Bible. It is clear that all those myths have a common ancestor, a source of inspiration, something they tried to symbolize trough them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some say that it is a representation of humans' fear of dangerous reptiles like snakes, crocodiles, poisonous lizards, etc. But I think there is more: that the people who thought about these creatures centuries and millennia ago wanted to illustrate an idea. Maybe they wanted to show a human negative trait like greed or envy (which is what I read about Leviathan), or evilness and cruelty. What do mythologists think?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29972" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5682" RevisionGUID="71a01cbe-0b24-4600-9e14-421c055346b6" CreationDate="2023-03-02T23:33:18.887" UserId="4022" Comment="added 13 characters in body" Text="For the sake of future readers, here's some info taken from [my answer][1] to [this Latin.SE question][2]; I'm not at all sure I've found the *first* syncretism, and _interpretatio graeca_ definitely happened earlier too (since Herodotus is quick to connect Greek and Egyptian gods), but this is the oldest written source I've found that concerns specifically Roman deities: it predates Tacitus's _Germania_ by about a century.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Dionysius of Halicarnassus's _Roman Antiquities_ 2.34 (first century BCE):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Μετὰ δὲ τὴν πομπήν τε καὶ θυσίαν νεὼν κατασκευάσας ὁ Ῥωμύλος ἐπὶ τῆς κορυφῆς τοῦ Καπιτωλίου **Διός, ὃν ἐπικαλοῦσι Ῥωμαῖοι Φερέτριον**, οὐ μέγαν (ἔτι γὰρ αὐτοῦ σώζεται τὸ ἀρχαῖον ἴχνος ἐλάττονας ἢ πέντε ποδῶν καὶ δέκα τὰς μείζους πλευρὰς ἔχον)&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Then, after that triumph, and the sacrifice, Romulus built a new temple **to Zeus (whom the Romans call &quot;Feretrius&quot;)** at the top of the Capitoline Hill. It wasn't very big—the old foundations still survive, and the longest side is less than fifteen feet long.*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(Translation and emphasis mine.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This was the Temple of Jupiter Feretrius, the oldest temple in Rome, where the *spolia opima* were brought after a war. According to Nepos, it fell into ruin sometime before Caesar and was rebuilt by Augustus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://latin.stackexchange.com/a/10765/406&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://latin.stackexchange.com/q/6033/406" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29977" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5610" RevisionGUID="77a0cb9e-793e-45d7-a977-65af24bc7338" CreationDate="2023-03-03T18:14:53.650" UserId="-1" Comment="correct spelling + more characters for limit" Text="The heroes of the *Iliad* seem to be completely obsessed with honourable fighting, with Hector refusing to take sanctuary behind the walls due to that not being honourable (*The Great Courses - Famous Greeks*, Lecture 3: &quot;Hector&quot;, with Professor J. Rufus Fears). However, ultimately it is the guile and cunning of Odysseus that wins the war, as well as an arrow that kills Achilles. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;How would the Greeks of the time contrast the pursuit of honourable actions with the incredible effectiveness of guile? I understand that their gods had willed Troy to fall, but then why not simply allow the city to be captured by raw force?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29978" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5610" RevisionGUID="77a0cb9e-793e-45d7-a977-65af24bc7338" CreationDate="2023-03-03T18:14:53.650" Comment="Proposed by anonymous approved by 398, 5329 edit id of 1913" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29980" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5498" RevisionGUID="df1e47fd-2dc7-49b2-ab44-f327b3d1991d" CreationDate="2023-03-03T18:45:27.833" UserId="-1" Comment="correct spelling + more characters for limit" Text="I'm looking for mythological examples of loss leading to intense emotional and symbolic displays of grief, whether spontaneous, performative, ritual or some combination of the above. That is, grief so intense that it inspires madness, self-destruction, revenge, or deep penance, any kind of charged and meaningful display, of the sort that within which the participants act as if to say 'look at us now, just look at how terrible our sorrow is'. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As clarifying examples: Isis gathering the body parts of Osiris would not count for this, because while the story both touching and symbolic, I've never read a version where the emotional display of grief itself was brought to the forefront. Conversely, Gilgamesh's grief for Enkidu, the ending of Beowulf, or almost anything in the Iliad, are all excellent examples of what I'm looking for. Loss in this question mostly refers to the loss of a person, but that can be bent to refer to a nation, reputation, treasure, or a hoped-for-future, etc. if the example of grief is strong enough." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29981" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5498" RevisionGUID="df1e47fd-2dc7-49b2-ab44-f327b3d1991d" CreationDate="2023-03-03T18:45:27.833" Comment="Proposed by anonymous approved by 398, 53 edit id of 1914" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29982" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5070" RevisionGUID="9a6ae95a-d6e9-4b36-b172-e103a33550f5" CreationDate="2023-03-03T18:45:47.160" UserId="-1" Comment="correct spelling + more characters for limit" Text="The earliest known account of the Judgement of Paris comes from the *Cypria*, a work which has since been lost. A preserved summary, however, states that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Alexandros judges for Aphrodite, encouraged by a promise of Helen in marriage. On the advice of Aphrodite, he has ships built . . . When he gets to Lacedaemonia, Alexandros is entertained as a [ξένος][1] by the sons of Tyndaros, and afterwards by Menelaos at Sparta. Alexandros gives Helen gifts during the feast. Menelaos sails off to Crete, telling Helen to provide proper hospitality for their ξένοι while he is away. Aphrodite brings Helen and Alexandros together. After their intercourse, they load up a great many valuables and sail away by night.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[*The Chrestomathy of Proclus*](http://www.stoa.org/hopper/text.jsp?doc=Stoa:text:2003.01.0004)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are no hints here that Paris (Alexandros) took Helen by force. Instead, we see that Aphrodite guided Paris to Helen, and apparently, to put it delicately, played &quot;matchmaker&quot; for the two. This is reinforced by, for example, passages in the *Iliad*, where we see Aphrodite explicitly trying to provoke Helen's desires for Paris:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aphrodite spake: &quot;Come hither; Alexander calleth thee to go to thy home. There is he in his chamber and on his inlaid couch, gleaming with beauty and fair raiment. Thou wouldest not deem that he had come thither from warring with a foe, but rather that he was going to the dance, or sat there as one that had but newly ceased from the dance.&quot; So spake she, and stirred Helen's heart in her breast; and when she marked the beauteous neck of the goddess, her lovely bosom, and her flashing eyes, then amazement seized her, and she spake, and addressed her, saying: &quot;Strange goddess, why art thou minded to beguile me thus?&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[*Iliad* 3.395-400](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D3%3Acard%3D381)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, yes, in theory Paris *could* have abducted Helen anyway. But he wouldn't have known to look for Helen in Menelaus's kingdom, nor was he guaranteed to be able to seduce Helen without divine help. At the very least, a willing Helen would have made things easier for Paris.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this way, Aphrodite's bribe basically meant being a guide and &quot;wing woman&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dce%2Fnos" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29983" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5070" RevisionGUID="9a6ae95a-d6e9-4b36-b172-e103a33550f5" CreationDate="2023-03-03T18:45:47.160" Comment="Proposed by anonymous approved by 398, 53 edit id of 1916" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29984" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10636" RevisionGUID="18350e9e-c013-4cb5-b60f-1befd9f19199" CreationDate="2023-03-03T18:45:56.020" UserId="-1" Comment="correct spelling + more characters for limit" Text="Does Homer give any clue as to the time of year, or even the specific dates, when events in the *Iliad* occur? I don't mean the absolute chronology (e.g., 1184 BCE or whatever) or span of time (e.g., +9 days for the plague), but rather the time within the year (e.g., the first day of autumn, 12th June, etc.). " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29985" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10636" RevisionGUID="18350e9e-c013-4cb5-b60f-1befd9f19199" CreationDate="2023-03-03T18:45:56.020" UserId="-1" Comment="correct spelling + more characters for limit" Text="Date (time of year) of the Iliad?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29986" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="10636" RevisionGUID="18350e9e-c013-4cb5-b60f-1befd9f19199" CreationDate="2023-03-03T18:45:56.020" Comment="Proposed by anonymous approved by 4022, 53 edit id of 1912" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29987" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2885" RevisionGUID="c31333da-2c56-4503-bfec-09418ec3d36d" CreationDate="2023-03-03T18:46:51.213" UserId="-1" Comment="correct spelling + more characters for limit" Text="In the *[Iliad][1]*, Hera rebels against Zeus, and gets the other gods to bind him to his throne after she drugs him:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;You [Thetis] said you only among the immortals beat aside shameful&#xD;&#xA;&gt; destruction from Kronos' son [Zeus] the dark-misted, that time when&#xD;&#xA;&gt; all the other Olympian gods sought to bind him, Hera and Poseidon and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pallas Athene. Then you, goddess, went and set him free from his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shackles, summoning in speed the creature of the hundred hands to tall&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Olympos, that creature the gods name Briareos, but all men Aigaios'&#xD;&#xA;&gt; son, but he is far greater in strength than his father. He rejoicing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in the glory of it sat down by Kronion, and the rest of the blessed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gods were frightened and gave up binding him.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;  &#xD;&#xA;I found this on [Theoi.com](http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/HeraMyths.html#Binding), which also quotes the *Argonautica* on how Zeus hung his wife in the sky by her hair, with anvils attached to her feet, as punishment.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D15%3Acard%3D1&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29988" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2885" RevisionGUID="c31333da-2c56-4503-bfec-09418ec3d36d" CreationDate="2023-03-03T18:46:51.213" Comment="Proposed by anonymous approved by 398, 53 edit id of 1917" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29991" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="10478" RevisionGUID="d7676a9c-a71e-453b-9078-f8909da23339" CreationDate="2023-03-04T23:02:55.417" UserId="-1" Comment="132" />
  <row Id="29992" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="10622" RevisionGUID="8fb103ee-b533-4d9e-b21c-99f6da2d830f" CreationDate="2023-03-05T12:01:25.137" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="29993" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10624" RevisionGUID="d52036f1-dca9-4dc6-aa21-608e8634208c" CreationDate="2023-03-06T20:54:22.777" UserId="7106" Comment="using quote function" Text="Some time after posting that question, I asked the same question on another forum, and received the following translation from a Tamil poet called Vijayanarasimhan.  He goes into more detail in his excellent post: &#xD;&#xA;https://sangamtamilpoetry.quora.com/The-Legend-of-the-Three-Tamil-Sangams?ch=10&amp;oid=86056254&amp;share=c2548811&amp;srid=z9F0&amp;target_type=post&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here is Vijayanarasimhan's translation of the relevant part of Nakkeerar's introduction to the Iraiyanaar Kalaviyal. Quote:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The Pandiyars established three Sangams called Thalai Sangam, Idai Sangam, and Kadai Sangam.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Among them, those who were in the Thalai Sangam are Agathiyanaar, Thiripuram eritha virisadai kadavul (God Shivan), Kunru-erintha Murugavel (God Murugan), Murinjiyoor Mudinagarayar, Nithiyin Kizhavan (Guberan) and five hundred and forty-nine (549) other poets, including them a total of four thousand four hundred and forty-nine (4449) poets composed songs (in the assembly of the Sangam), so it is said.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Their works include many Paripaadal, Muthunaarai, Muthukurugu, Kaliyaavirai, etc.  It is held that they ran the Sangam for a total of four thousand four hundred and forty (4440) years. They are said to be patronized by eighty-nine (89) (Pandiyan kings) from Kaai-cina-vazhuthi to Kadun-kon, of whom seven Pandiyan kings ascended the dais as poets. Madurai, which was (later) engulfed by the ocean, is said to be the location where they ran the Sangam and researched Tamil. Agathiyam is said to be their (grammar) book.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Now, those who were in the Idai Sangam are Agathiyanaar, Tholkaappiyanaar, Irunthaiyoor Karunkozhi Mosi, Velloorkkaappiyan, Sirupandarangan, Thiraiyan Maaran, Thuvarai Komaan,  Keeranthai and fifty-nine (59) other poets, including them a total of three thousand and seven hundred (3700) poets composed songs (in the assembly of the Sangam), so it is said.&#xD;&#xA;Their works include Kali, Kurugu, Vendaali, Viyaazha maalai akaval, etc. Agathiyam, Tholkaappiyam, Maapuraanam, Isai-nunukkam, Boothapuraanam, etc, are said to be their (grammar) books. &#xD;&#xA;It is said that they ran the Sangam for a total of three thousand and seven hundred (3700) years. They are said to be patronized by fifty-nine (59) (Pandiyan kings) from Venther Sezhiyan to Muda-thirumaaran, of whom five Pandiyan kings ascended the dais as poets. Kapaadapuram is said to be the location where they ran the Sangam and researched Tamil. Like ancient times, Pandiyan territory was engulfed by the ocean (again).&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Now, those who were in the Kadai Sangam are Sirumethaaviyaar, Sentham-bhoothanaar, Arivudai-aranaar, Perunkunroor Kizhaar, Ilanthirumaaran, Madurai Aasiriyar Nallanthuvanaar, Madurai Maruthan-ilanaaganaar, Kanakkaayanaar Maganaar Nakkeeranaar and forty-nine (49) other poets, including them a total of four hundred and forty nine (449) poets composed songs (in the assembly of the Sangam), so it is said.&#xD;&#xA;Their works include Nedunthogai Naanooru, Kurunthogai Naanooru, Natrinai Naanooru, Pura-naanooru, Ainkuru-nooru, Pathitru-paththu, Nootraimbathu Kali, Ezhubathu Paripaadal, Koothu, Vari, Sitrisai, Perisai, etc. Agathiyam and Tholkaappiyam are said to be their (grammar) books.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;It is said that they ran the Sangam for a total of thousand eight hundred and fifty years (1850) years. They are said to be patronized by forty-nine (49) (Pandiyan kings) from Muda-thirumaran, who has recovered from ocean engulfing, to Ukkira Peruvazhuthi, of whom three Pandiyan kings ascended the dais as poets. Uththara-madurai is said to be the location where they ran the Sangam and researched Tamil.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="29994" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="10624" RevisionGUID="d52036f1-dca9-4dc6-aa21-608e8634208c" CreationDate="2023-03-06T20:54:22.777" Comment="Proposed by 7106 approved by 2682, 398 edit id of 1918" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30000" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10652" RevisionGUID="e858a258-7c48-4dfc-aff2-f77fdd2b266d" CreationDate="2023-03-09T04:10:10.557" UserId="8896" Text="I mean gods that are truly evil, not ones who are reflecting the social norms of the era they were worshiped in. (Zeus for example, he wasn't evil, his actions were seen as acceptable and normal at the time.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30002" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10652" RevisionGUID="e858a258-7c48-4dfc-aff2-f77fdd2b266d" CreationDate="2023-03-09T04:10:10.557" UserId="8896" Text="What are some actually evil gods around the world?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30003" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10652" RevisionGUID="e858a258-7c48-4dfc-aff2-f77fdd2b266d" CreationDate="2023-03-09T04:10:10.557" UserId="8896" Text="|native-american|mesopotamia|european-folklore|gods|africa|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30004" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10653" RevisionGUID="66217d7c-ede0-48e1-a851-e94b9d74143e" CreationDate="2023-03-09T05:37:34.447" UserId="398" Text="In Zoroastrianism, the Angra Mainyu could be seen as an evil god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Angra Mainyu...is the Avestan-language name of Zoroastrianism's hypostasis of the &quot;destructive/evil spirit&quot; and the main adversary in Zoroastrianism either of the Spenta Mainyu, the &quot;holy/creative spirits/mentality&quot;, or directly of Ahura Mazda, the highest deity of Zoroastrianism. The Middle Persian equivalent is Ahriman.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I don't love Wikipedia's description, but it gets across the heart of the matter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also note that [*daevas*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daeva) are a whole host of malevolent gods. Interestingly, the evil *daevas* of Zoroastrianism battle *Ahura*, meanwhile the good *devi* in Hinduism battle the &quot;less good&quot; *asuras*. My contention, which I sadly never followed up on when I could have, is that this reflects actual hostility between India and Persia 3000+ years ago.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the *devi* in Hinduism aren't really evil, especially in early Hinduism. Some texts do treat them as totally corrupt though." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30007" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10654" RevisionGUID="6156eca1-03cc-427e-8ed9-fc265cc5c961" CreationDate="2023-03-15T05:49:50.513" UserId="8896" Text="I found a collection of 3 love stories from medieval European folklore about dragons disguising themselves as handsome men to seduce beautiful women, usually a princess and marry them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is this a common motif in folklore (European) about dragons? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://exemplore.com/legends/Shape-Shifting-Dragons-of-Folklore" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30009" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10654" RevisionGUID="6156eca1-03cc-427e-8ed9-fc265cc5c961" CreationDate="2023-03-15T05:49:50.513" UserId="8896" Text="Do dragons marry human women?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30010" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10654" RevisionGUID="6156eca1-03cc-427e-8ed9-fc265cc5c961" CreationDate="2023-03-15T05:49:50.513" UserId="8896" Text="|dragons|european-folklore|medieval-europe|love|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30011" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10655" RevisionGUID="3ab55bc7-8fcb-4643-9d81-5163637041f3" CreationDate="2023-03-17T02:58:29.990" UserId="10099" Text="Polyidus of Corinth shares a similar story:&#xD;&#xA;&quot;When a snake appeared nearby, Polyidus killed it with the sword. Another snake came for the first, and after seeing its mate dead, the second serpent left and returned with an herb which then brought the first snake back to life. With the herb Polyidus resurrected the child.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyidus_of_Corinth&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The snake seems to have the proper sense for plants.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would guess that the underwater, thorny sea plant might be a starfish such as crown-of-thorns starfish or a type of coral." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30013" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="10466" RevisionGUID="17ace055-86df-4a4c-8590-41e72c138191" CreationDate="2023-03-17T09:00:25.130" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30015" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10656" RevisionGUID="49e71b54-394c-4f16-ab21-31a78d2fd687" CreationDate="2023-03-19T15:14:07.860" UserId="10111" Text="While all of the answers here provide some information, they are all incomplete in that they fail to acknowledge the meanings for these symbols. In many cultures the world over, snakes are symbols of more than just rebirth, but also great wisdom/awakening (kundalini) - believed to be a creature that could traverse the underworld just as easily as the world of the living. In addition to this, we see mythologies worldwide with stories of the serpent who encompassed the earth - Apep/Apophis (Egyptian,) Jörmungandr (Norse,) Ouroboros (Greek,) Shesha (Hindu,) Antaboga (Javanese.) The parallels with astronomy/astrology in these stories is also worth noting - specifically in relation to the constellations of Ophiuchus &amp; Serpens, Hydra, &amp; Draco.  It is also worth mentioning that the cycle of the path of the sun through the seasons follows a sine wave form that has been depicted as a serpent. (Santos Bonacci discusses this at length.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I also think that the story of the nahash (the serpent on the pole - raised up by Moses in the desert to cure those bitten by “fiery serpents. “Fiery [feathered] serpents” being the seraphim - of which were those “fallen angels” that imparted divine wisdom onto mankind.) should be considered in this discussion as well.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the bull, the horn symbolism is most significant, as it was a representation of enlightened consciousness.  Much like the halos depicted on the images of Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, and many others, the horns were seen as evidence of enlightenment or divinity.  In the Hebrew language (which has striking similarities with many proto-Indo-European languages, despite being classified as a Semitic language) the word for horn - qeren (קרנ) is often used allegorically to indicate great power of divinity or wisdom.  (See Michelangelo’s “Moses” - 1505). Consider too, the astronomical implications for this symbol as it pertains to the constellation of Taurus.  As the peoples of earth experienced each astrological age, the art and philosophies that grew up within each respective age tended to rely heavily on symbols from the cosmos. Jesus &amp; the 2 fish in the age of Pisces. Abraham and the ram in the age of Aries. The Taurean Age (c. 4535 BC to c. 1875 BC) was marked by considerable advances in agriculture and a dramatic shift from hunter-gatherer to a more agrarian lifestyle.  During this time, many myths of sacred bulls (Apis - Egyptian,) (Marduk - Sumerian,) (Nandi - Hindu,) sprung up around these newly agrarian cultures.  Symbolizing power, strength, fertility, and wealth, these sacred bulls were often associated with a solar deity as it indicated the beginning of spring and the growth of new crops. (Taurus season)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is very likely that these symbols grew up around the “Holy Science” of Astrology and the concepts of divine enlightenment as they pertain to the influence of the heavenly bodies of the stars." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30017" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10657" RevisionGUID="3206c954-ed91-48b4-88ca-9361038bf80b" CreationDate="2023-03-20T02:43:43.270" UserId="6739" Text="How would one say the name of each individual gate from the Gates of Ivory and Horn? According to the Odyssey, they are located in the underworld near I have found that (ἐλέφας) is ivory, and (κέρας) is horn. Pylai means gates(plural) as far as I can tell. So, what would each individual gate be called?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30019" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10657" RevisionGUID="3206c954-ed91-48b4-88ca-9361038bf80b" CreationDate="2023-03-20T02:43:43.270" UserId="6739" Text="How would the Gates of Ivory and Horn from the Odyssey be said in ancient Greek?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30020" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10657" RevisionGUID="3206c954-ed91-48b4-88ca-9361038bf80b" CreationDate="2023-03-20T02:43:43.270" UserId="6739" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30021" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10657" RevisionGUID="a69c4842-c3b0-43a4-89e4-c89963c7667a" CreationDate="2023-03-20T02:59:53.627" UserId="6739" Comment="added 21 characters in body" Text="How would one say the name of each individual gate from the Gates of Ivory and Horn? According to the Odyssey, they are located in the underworld near the Asphodel fields. I have found that (ἐλέφας) is ivory, and (κέρας) is horn. Pylai means gates(plural) as far as I can tell. So, what would each individual gate be called?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30022" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10658" RevisionGUID="9e1e3c41-3f30-4a73-8757-c7f9ce979a44" CreationDate="2023-03-20T05:13:49.063" UserId="398" Text="It seems that the Greek is set on the genitive singular for &quot;ivory&quot; and genitive plural for &quot;horn&quot;. Moreover, the singular of &quot;gate&quot; in Greek is πύλη.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So you get **πύλη ἐλέφαντος** and **πύλη κεράων**. These are missing the articles, as they would in epic poetry, but in later prose, you would see a definite article for each noun.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30026" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1385" RevisionGUID="01c19633-c95e-4641-a8b2-9847bc31194c" CreationDate="2023-03-22T01:07:51.120" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30027" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="10332" RevisionGUID="d04d3499-f6c5-47de-8d33-5cea82740503" CreationDate="2023-03-22T07:08:31.047" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30029" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10660" RevisionGUID="45b4a8f0-5e72-470f-9bcc-6dbbb30550dd" CreationDate="2023-03-23T10:15:47.960" UserId="10122" Text="The _boy_ Arthur pulled his sword from stone (_Earth_) that had been struck by lightning (_Fire_). To be King he needed the sword from the Lake (_Water_) that was raised up into the _Air_ by the _Lady_ of the Lake. This is a message of alchemy and of balancing the Divine Masculine (left hemisphere) and Divine Feminine (right hemisphere).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;___The swords are two halves of the same whole___. This is the __Holy Grail__ that must be sought within. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Alchemy/ Hermetic Arts were outlawed in the times of these tales, and to have spoken as plainly as I have here would have had you hunted down by the Church and burned at the stake. Their libraries were burned and destroyed (and carted off to 'elsewhere' for 'safekeeping' no doubt).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Legend is full of coded references to forbidden knowledge." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30031" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10661" RevisionGUID="1944a4e9-80fb-49d9-a865-f1a0561a6254" CreationDate="2023-03-23T18:21:03.987" UserId="10124" Text="I believe the following story qualifies as folklore. The general canvas goes thusly:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. A town is besieged by an army, trying to starve it into surrendering&#xD;&#xA; 2. The town is running short in supplies&#xD;&#xA; 3. The town makes a show of being full of food to the besieging army. Details differ (cf. below) but it usually involves wasting all the food that’s left.&#xD;&#xA; 4. The besieging army believes the town can hold for a long time, and lifts the siege.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Examples:&#xD;&#xA;- [Frontinus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontinus), coming a few centuries after the supposed events, describes a story in _Strategemata_ ([source](https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Frontinus/Strategemata/3*.html#ref74); footnote 74 has the same story in other sources):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Milesians were at one time suffering a long siege at the hands of Alyattes, who hoped they could be starved into surrender. But the Milesian commander, Thrasybulus, in anticipation of the arrival of envoys from Alyattes, ordered all the grain to be brought together into the market-place, arranged for banquets to be held on that occasion, and provided sumptuous feasts throughout the city. Thus he convinced the enemy that the Milesians had abundance of provisions with which to sustain a long siege&#xD;&#xA;- [Herculanus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herculanus_of_Perugia) is the bishop of Perugia (Italy). Perugia is besieged by the Ostrogoths. Herculanus feeds &quot;the last sack of grain to the last lamb&quot;, presumably arranges for it to be seen by the Ostrogoths. This time, the ruse fails; the Ostrogoths capture the city and execute Herculanus. The source seems to be [Pope Gregory I](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Gregory_I), a contemporary source (but not an unbiased one)&#xD;&#xA;- a folk etymology for the name of the city of Carcassonne (southern France). The city is under Saracen control and besieged by Charlemagne. [Lady Carcas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Carcas), a local princess, gathers all food that’s left, and finds it’s one sack of wheat (a high-status grain) and one pig (an animal that will eat anything). She feeds the former to the latter, then tosses the pig over the city walls. Charlemagne’s army leaves. (As the Wikipedia article indicates, Pepin the short captured Carcassonne when Charlemagne was 17, so the story cannot possibly be true as told.) The source seems to be oral tradition developing in the 12th century (again, much later than the supposed events).&#xD;&#xA;- the [Picokijada](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picokijada) in Đurđevac (Croatia). Somewhere in the 16th century, the Ottomans besiege the city. The only food left is a rooster. An old woman suggests to shoot it into the Ottoman camp, with the argument that it’s not going to stop the city from starving anyway. The Ottoman army leaves, calling the townsfolk &quot;roosters&quot; (picoki). The town has apparently an annual celebration (see the Wikipedia article); the story was written down in the late 19th century but existed before in oral tradition.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As is typical for folk tales, the exact details vary - the town is presumably one that the listeners can identify with, and the exact method of deception is left to the teller’s choice.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I would welcome information about:&#xD;&#xA;- how wide that folk tale has travelled (all examples above are in Western and central Europe; I have seen a similar story attributed to a Chinese general, but from a random forum user without a source attached)&#xD;&#xA;- any information about the origin of all those stories (I realize that a common feature of myths is that there is no single, original, canonical version from which all other descend, but you never know)&#xD;&#xA;- any other scholarly information about that tale format." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30033" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10661" RevisionGUID="1944a4e9-80fb-49d9-a865-f1a0561a6254" CreationDate="2023-03-23T18:21:03.987" UserId="10124" Text="Town tricks a besieging army into leaving" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30034" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10661" RevisionGUID="1944a4e9-80fb-49d9-a865-f1a0561a6254" CreationDate="2023-03-23T18:21:03.987" UserId="10124" Text="|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30035" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10662" RevisionGUID="abf76707-52a0-4b2a-9cb1-6bbdf27b1a0d" CreationDate="2023-03-24T11:02:27.513" UserId="4295" Text="Are there any mythological beings that are Cretan ,and not Greek .For example the minotaur is set in Crete but a Greek story .Are there any pure Cretan legends or Myths ." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30037" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10662" RevisionGUID="abf76707-52a0-4b2a-9cb1-6bbdf27b1a0d" CreationDate="2023-03-24T11:02:27.513" UserId="4295" Text="Mythology of Crete" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30038" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10662" RevisionGUID="abf76707-52a0-4b2a-9cb1-6bbdf27b1a0d" CreationDate="2023-03-24T11:02:27.513" UserId="4295" Text="|greek|mythical-creatures|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30039" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10663" RevisionGUID="e43ca3a4-05ef-4c90-82f8-d27976671bc8" CreationDate="2023-03-24T17:37:49.790" UserId="8513" Text="The lake in *The Frogs* is the **Acherusian lake** (λιμνη Αχερουσιος), into which the river Acheron flows. The identity of the lake seems clear from the directions to the underworld given by Heracles in the play:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ***Dionysus*** No more of that, but tell me which of the roads will bring us quickest down to Hell, and one that’s not too hot, nor yet too cold.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ***Heracles*** How will you go?&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ***Dionysus*** The road you went.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ***Heracles*** It’s a hell of a haul. Right off you’ll come to an enormous lake, a fathomless abyss!&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ***Dionysus*** How will I get across?&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ***Heracles*** In a little boat—just so big!—an aged mariner will take you over, and take two obols for your fare.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Aristophanes (405 BCE). [*The Frogs*, lines 117ff.][1] Translated by Matthew Dillon. Perseus Digital Library.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;and from the name of the ferryman:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ***Xanthias*** What’s this?&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ***Dionysus*** This? The lake, of course, the very one he mentioned, and now I see the boat.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ***Xanthias*** Me too, by Poseidon, and this one here is Charon.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ***Dionysus*** Ah Charon, Charon, cheery, cheery Charon!&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Aristophanes, lines 180ff.][3]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the lake is the body of water across which Charon ferried the dead to Hades, that is, the Acherusian lake. Aristophanes does not name the lake, but here are two sources that do:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ***Chorus*** O daughter of Pelias, farewell, and may you have joy even as you dwell in the sunless house of Hades! Let Hades, black-haired god, and the old man who sits at oar and tiller, ferryman of souls, be sure that it is by far the best of women that he has ferried in his skiff across the **lake of Acheron**.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Euripides (438 BCE). [*Alcestis*, lines  439–444][4]. Translated by David Koavcs (1994). Perseus Digital Library.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now these streams are many and great and of all sorts, but among the many are four streams, the greatest and outermost of which is that called Oceanus, which flows round in a circle, and opposite this, flowing in the opposite direction, is **Acheron**, which flows through various desert places and, passing under the earth, comes to the **Acherusian lake**. To this lake the souls of most of the dead go and, after remaining there the appointed time, which is for some longer and for others shorter, are sent back to be born again into living beings.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Plato (4th century BCE). [*Phaedo* 112e–113a][2]. Translated by Harold North Fowler (1966). Perseus Digital Library.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The name “Acheron” was given to several rivers, and the name “Acherusia” to several lakes, that were imagined to connect to the underworld. Pausanias gives a couple of examples:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Among the sights of Thesprotia [in Epirus] are a sanctuary of Zeus at Dodona and an oak sacred to the god. Near Cichyrus is a lake called **Acherusia**, and a river called **Acheron**. There is also Cocytus, a most unlovely stream. I believe it was because Homer had seen these places that he made bold to describe in his poems the regions of Hades, and gave to the rivers there the names of those in Thesprotia.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Pausanias (2nd century). [*Description of Greece* 1.17.5][6]. Translated by W. H. S. Jones and H. A. Ormerod (1918). Perseus Digital Library.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Behind the temple of Chthonia [in Hermione in Argolis] are three places which the Hermionians call that of Clymenus, that of Pluto, and the **Acherusian Lake**. All are surrounded by fences of stones, while in the place of Clymenus there is also a chasm in the earth. Through this, according to the legend of the Hermionians, Heracles brought up the Hound of Hell.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Pausanias 2.35.10][5].&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0032:card=116&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Plat.+Phaedo+112e&amp;fromdoc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0170&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0032:card=185&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0088:card=435&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0160:book=2:chapter=35:section=10&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0160:book=1:chapter=17:section=5&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30041" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10664" RevisionGUID="7806d687-be55-45ba-bfc3-4fd7a6391dda" CreationDate="2023-03-24T20:01:48.667" UserId="5013" Text="Many Grimm Kinder und Hausmärchen texts contain lilies as gave plants, symbols of life and death, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Felix Bonin’s “Wörterbuch der Märchen Symbolik” it is written: *“belongs to great knightly symbols, that were liked to be carried on shields…The lily is Western expression of the lotus, symbol of the purity of the soul. As [a] swamp plant it emerges from morass ground, grows towards the (Godly) light (“golden-lily”) and opens to him the delicacy of its bloom. She [It] is with that the symbol of change and transformation. In this meaning she [it] is also used as a grave plant: “upon the golden lilies you can see, how we are: are they fresh, so we are healthy; are they wilted, we are sick; [if] they fall down, we are dead.”* &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lilies are mentioned in several KHM texts. The HDA (Handbuch des Deutschen Aberglaubens) [Handbook of German Superstitions] has an entry for “Lilies” where it is described on pg. 1300 in Vol V. (loosely translated): &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*“2. The liliy plays an important role in religious symbology of the Middle Ages. She is as symbol of purity an attribute of the Virgin Maria and the Holy Antonius von Padua. In legends and folks songs lilies appear especially on the grave of [those] innocent killed ones. In Hildisreiden (Canton. Lucern) in the year 1430 a lily stalk is said to have grown out of the heart of a body. The out of the grave sprouting lily is commonly a symbol of a “Plfanzenseele” [plant-soul], but according to Johan Meier these “grabslilien” [grave lilies] have nothing to do with the “Seelenglauben” [belief in or of souls?]. When in the cloister Korvei a monk was to die, he found three days before lying on his place in the church a lily. Also is told, that Carl V. [at] the end of August 1558 in the cloister San Juste planted a lily bulb: in the moment where he died (on the 21st of Sept 155), the bulb shot up a two elle long stalk. Of the secretive lilies, that three Sundays after each other were standing under an oak and then suddenly disappeared, a Thüringer legends speaks. The “three lilies on the grave” are also found in blessings, so to Diebssetllung [theft prevention] or against sicknesses. With white lilies one can during Christmas Mass open enchanted locks.”*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;SEE KHM 1815 #10 (1857 #96) The Three Birdlets,&quot; 1812# 63 &quot;Goldchildren, 1812 #9 &quot;The Twelve Brothres.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lilies have been extensively discussed in my translation of the 1812/1815 First Edition of the Grimms Kinder und Hausmärchen By Oliver Loo.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30043" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10665" RevisionGUID="00d61c92-63cc-4ed0-95f7-f1654c6eac4f" CreationDate="2023-03-24T20:42:10.633" UserId="5013" Text="You can also look in:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Grimms Märchen Anmerkungen (Bolte Polivka) V 212.jpg][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This section is specifically about Mongolian &quot;Fairy Tales.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;It is written in German, but with a Google Translate and a bit of copy and paste, you can probably find a lot of good info. Some references are in English also. See below:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/07/Grimms_M%C3%A4rchen_Anmerkungen_%28Bolte_Polivka%29_V_212.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/hPm1A.png&#xD;&#xA;By the way, the Bolte book lists references of/from &quot;Fairy Tales&quot; from all over the planet (at least what was known as of 1932 anyway)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30045" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10666" RevisionGUID="ad25bdc9-8431-407d-8e7b-6a617b22804d" CreationDate="2023-03-24T22:04:47.080" UserId="5013" Text="All good answers.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For consideration: Look at the Bible. How many versions are there? I stopped counting at 75. There are probably over 100 easily. Which version should you believe? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://www.conservapedia.com/Disputed_Biblical_Translations&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Romans 3:28&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This passage sparked the Reformation. Martin Luther added an extra German word for &quot;alone&quot; (alleine or alleyn) after the phrase: &quot;justified by faith&quot;: &quot;So halten wir nun dafür, daß der Mensch gerecht werde ohne des Gesetzes Werke, alleyn durch den Glauben.&quot; This reflected Luther's view that man is justified (saved) by faith alone, and that salvation comes only from faith. The Roman Catholic Church (and Eastern Orthodox Church) taught that man is justified (saved) by faith and good works.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;NAB 	For we consider that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the law.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Holman 	For we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;NIV 	For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;NRSV 	For we hold that a person is justified by faith apart from works prescribed by the law. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Translation can spark a revolution. So yes, it does make a difference.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30051" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10668" RevisionGUID="b9d92c66-6919-4ebd-862d-99edf4b382e5" CreationDate="2023-03-25T15:48:45.510" UserId="10129" Text="He wasn't. Literally the only 'evidence' that all those who claim that Posiedon was once a chief pantheon is that s because of the importance of his cult and the commonness of his name on the available tablets, but that theory fails to take into account that the most worshiped doesn’t necessarily translate into the most powerful.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For a prominent and linked example refer to Hades, an important and influential figure in Greek myths who historically received little worship because everyone died anyway and there was little claim that honoring him would help you with that. Or Thor, who is more revered and worshipped than his father Odin but is not the King of the Gods. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;TL;DR: : It's important not to mistake &quot;a sea-faring people honored their sea and earthquake god above/more often than the others&quot; with &quot;the sea god was the ruler of the gods in their mythology&quot;. Reconstruction attempts indicate that the sky god as the ruler of the gods is an overarching element in indo-European pantheons dating back to before Mycenaean Greece and there really isn’t any reason why Mycenaen Greece would be an exception to that rule when their neighbors (Ancient Egypt, Phoenicians, Canaanites, Sumerians, etc), who would undoubtably influenced them, all have sky deities as chief of their pantheons. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30053" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10668" RevisionGUID="38a5cef7-da9f-4920-ba96-692b27bd0d85" CreationDate="2023-03-25T15:50:06.883" UserId="10129" Comment="added 28 characters in body" Text="He wasn't. Literally the only 'evidence' that all those who claim that Posiedon was once a chief pantheon is because of the importance of his cult and the commonness of his name on the available tablets we have from those times, but that theory fails to take into account that the most worshiped doesn’t necessarily translate into the most powerful.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For a prominent and linked example refer to Hades, an important and influential figure in Greek myths who historically received no worship at all because everyone died anyway and there was little claim that honoring him would help you with that. Or Thor, who is more revered and worshipped than his father Odin but is not the King of the Gods. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;TL;DR: It's important not to mistake &quot;a sea-faring people honored their sea and earthquake god above/more often than the others&quot; with &quot;the sea god was the ruler of the gods in their mythology/religion&quot;. Reconstruction attempts indicate that the sky god as the ruler of the gods is an overarching element in indo-European pantheons dating back to before Mycenaean Greece and there really isn’t any reason why Mycenaen Greece would be an exception to that rule when their neighbors (Ancient Egypt, Phoenicians, Canaanites, Sumerians, etc), who would undoubtably influenced them, all have sky deities as chief of their pantheons. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30054" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10668" RevisionGUID="743395d5-0e8c-470b-a33a-6e43a119a165" CreationDate="2023-03-25T15:52:37.343" UserId="10129" Comment="deleted 7 characters in body" Text="He wasn't. Literally the only 'evidence' that all those who claim that Posiedon was once a chief pantheon is because of the importance of his cult and the commonness of his name on the available tablets we have from those times, but that theory fails to take into account that the most worshiped doesn’t necessarily translate into the most powerful.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For a prominent and linked example refer to Hades, an important and influential figure in Greek myths who historically received no worship at all because everyone died anyway and there was little claim that honoring him would help you with that. Or Thor, who is more revered and worshipped than his father Odin but is not the King of the Gods. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's important not to mistake &quot;a sea-faring people honored their sea and earthquake god above/more often than the others&quot; with &quot;the sea god was the ruler of the gods in their mythology/religion&quot;. Reconstruction attempts indicate that the sky god as the ruler of the gods is an overarching element in indo-European pantheons dating back to before Mycenaean Greece and there really isn’t any reason why Mycenaen Greece would be an exception to that rule when their neighbors (Ancient Egypt, Phoenicians, Canaanites, Sumerians, etc), who would undoubtably influenced them, all have sky deities as chief of their pantheons. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30055" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10668" RevisionGUID="5241467b-1dca-4a4e-ac60-54ac98dfdf3b" CreationDate="2023-03-25T18:55:07.323" UserId="53" Comment="Corrected misuse of 'pantheon'" Text="He wasn't. Literally the only 'evidence' that all those who claim that Posiedon was once a chief member of the pantheon is because of the importance of his cult and the commonness of his name on the available tablets we have from those times, but that theory fails to take into account that the most worshiped doesn’t necessarily translate into the most powerful.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For a prominent and linked example refer to Hades, an important and influential figure in Greek myths who historically received no worship at all because everyone died anyway and there was little claim that honoring him would help you with that. Or Thor, who is more revered and worshipped than his father Odin but is not the King of the Gods. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's important not to mistake &quot;a sea-faring people honored their sea and earthquake god above/more often than the others&quot; with &quot;the sea god was the ruler of the gods in their mythology/religion&quot;. Reconstruction attempts indicate that the sky god as the ruler of the gods is an overarching element in indo-European pantheons dating back to before Mycenaean Greece and there really isn’t any reason why Mycenaen Greece would be an exception to that rule when their neighbors (Ancient Egypt, Phoenicians, Canaanites, Sumerians, etc), who would undoubtably influenced them, all have sky deities as chief of their pantheons. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30058" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5157" RevisionGUID="8f5510e9-376f-4620-bde9-ffe2f194c57f" CreationDate="2023-03-28T07:40:19.170" UserId="8427" Comment="deleted 65 characters in body" Text="Stories that are about extraterrestrial beings who visit earth and either return to their place of origin or not. They can also be about people from earth visiting the moon or other planets and either returning or not returning to earth. Are there any?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30059" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5157" RevisionGUID="2d80689c-6f3e-4c54-a35f-cc09229633d6" CreationDate="2023-03-28T14:10:54.547" UserId="8427" Comment="added 30 characters in body" Text="Stories that are about extraterrestrial beings who visit earth and either return to their place of origin or not. They can also be about people from earth visiting the moon (like in Lucian's True Story) or other planets and either returning or not returning to earth. Are there any?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30060" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5157" RevisionGUID="e6fab6c6-1443-42f2-96c3-50970090e840" CreationDate="2023-03-28T14:15:55.377" UserId="8427" Comment="added 30 characters in body" Text="Stories that are about extraterrestrial beings who visit earth and either return to their place of origin or not. They can also be about people from earth visiting the moon or other planets and either returning or not returning to earth. Like Lucian's True Story (if I'm not wrong) and the tale of the bamboo cutter." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30068" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10671" RevisionGUID="1e610b64-c259-474f-8070-684949cfd6c1" CreationDate="2023-03-29T17:22:16.680" UserId="5013" Text="In the Grimm's Kinder und Hausmärchen (KHM) text 1812 #25  &quot;The Three Ravens&quot;,[1857 = &quot;The Seven Ravens&quot;] the heroine goes to the sun, moon and stars in order to release her brothers from a spell. In KHM 1812 #59  &quot;Prince Swan&quot; three beings called &quot;Sun,&quot; &quot;Moon,&quot; and &quot;Star&quot; are on earth and give the heroine gifts to release the prince." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30070" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10672" RevisionGUID="feac90d8-2aae-460f-aa38-7c669fa82dd2" CreationDate="2023-03-30T17:48:35.400" UserId="10139" Text="In ancient Afro Asiatic culture, the bull was a symbol of an aged corrupt king (manifested by winter imprisoning the sun queen) that was ritually slaughtered every spring. Cattle worship was later present throughout the Mediterranean including Mesopotamia (remember the golden calf incident in the Bible, the Egyptian bull ritual in 25 yr cycles). The Harappans, the precursors of the Hindus, emigrated to India from Mesopotamia after exploring the sea from the Tigris and Euphrates and would have taken Mesopotamian culture with them, as well as sharing culture through trade.  When the Aryans invoked the Brahmans to create the upanishads, some historians claim their attachment to bull worshiping was strong enough to make it an important tenant, which has never weakened.  (Much of the other Hindu mythologies were Indo European from the Aryans). Interesting that the Minoans practiced a form of bull fighting (leaping) - and in Spain and Latin America - like conquering an enemy. Modern Spanish art symbolizes the bull as the anti-Christ (see pictures of the bull bowing to the glowing infant). So bulls/cows are good gods, corrupt gods, devils, symbols of brutal original sin, and slaughtered by the billions for food. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30072" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10629" RevisionGUID="563c3c99-760f-482b-a35a-e4ba84853fd3" CreationDate="2023-03-31T17:06:15.737" UserId="9882" Comment="corrected link-adress" Text="Aphrodite seems like a goddess that was added afterwards in Greek Mythology.&#xD;&#xA;It seems that she was added to represent eastern goddesses &#xD;&#xA;like Astarte and Inanna-Isthar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Astarte][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Inanna][2] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hera was not the first wife of Zeus. Metis was. Later on Hera took the place because it was the only way she would make love with Zeus. It was that simple.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Goddess of love can not become the mother figure, the perfect wife figure of stability caress and fierce wrath to protect her family. It was Hera for a good reason. Hera was feared, Hera was respected. So she was symbolizing the holiness of marriage. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Aphrodite could not play that role.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astarte&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inanna" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30073" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="10629" RevisionGUID="563c3c99-760f-482b-a35a-e4ba84853fd3" CreationDate="2023-03-31T17:06:15.737" Comment="Proposed by 9882 approved by 53 edit id of 1920" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30074" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="10638" RevisionGUID="6118c468-a5dd-488a-ac95-aa26c6ae4e61" CreationDate="2023-03-31T21:01:45.180" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30075" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10673" RevisionGUID="13787cd7-56d2-495b-b545-d5d258b5ed39" CreationDate="2023-04-01T07:29:58.910" UserId="10143" Text="The main story of a named elf (as opposed to elves as a people/grouping) I can think of is that of Volund the smith. You can read about him in Völundarkviða (The Lay of Volund), part of the poetic Edda. I have Carolyne Larrington's translation but there's an online version [here][1] of an older translation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe17.htm&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He's a smith, so there's interesting overlap with the many stories of dwarf craftsmen." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30077" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10674" RevisionGUID="4dba38aa-28a0-4391-bfc6-3aa43dcfdebd" CreationDate="2023-04-03T21:06:14.897" UserId="10148" Text="I was reading the page of Cronus in Theoi , when I saw this passage, which talked about the fight between Zeus and Cronus:&#xD;&#xA;Broadbeard Kronos fanned the flame of Enyo (War) as he cast icy spears against Kronion (Cronion) [Zeus], shooting his cold watery shafts: sharp pointed arrows of hail were shot from the sky. But Zeus armed himself with more fires than Helios (the Sun) and melted the petrified water with hotter sparks.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;Why Cronus have ice related powers in this passage?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30079" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10674" RevisionGUID="4dba38aa-28a0-4391-bfc6-3aa43dcfdebd" CreationDate="2023-04-03T21:06:14.897" UserId="10148" Text="why does Cronus have the power to cast hailstones, in the Dionysiaca of Nonnus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30080" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10674" RevisionGUID="4dba38aa-28a0-4391-bfc6-3aa43dcfdebd" CreationDate="2023-04-03T21:06:14.897" UserId="10148" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30081" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10674" RevisionGUID="bf14aa17-1dd2-4162-8c33-9d0b3bd868f6" CreationDate="2023-04-03T21:07:23.163" UserId="10148" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="I was reading the page of Cronus in Theoi , when I saw this passage, which talked about the fight between Zeus and Cronus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Broadbeard Kronos fanned the flame of Enyo (War) as he cast icy spears against Kronion (Cronion) [Zeus], shooting his cold watery shafts: sharp pointed arrows of hail were shot from the sky. But Zeus armed himself with more fires than Helios (the Sun) and melted the petrified water with hotter sparks.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why Cronus have ice related powers in this passage?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30082" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10674" RevisionGUID="375e6dd8-5c19-45c6-8e8d-482ccfe25581" CreationDate="2023-04-03T21:08:17.447" UserId="10148" Comment="edited title" Text="Why does Cronus have the power to cast hailstones, in the Dionysiaca of Nonnus?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30083" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10674" RevisionGUID="9bf833c2-d96f-4c9d-9f8b-f3e669f88b2c" CreationDate="2023-04-03T21:12:41.210" UserId="10148" Comment="added 64 characters in body" Text="I was reading the page of Cronus in Theoi , when I saw this passage, which talked about the fight between Zeus and Cronus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Broadbeard Kronos fanned the flame of Enyo (War) as he cast icy spears against Kronion (Cronion) [Zeus], shooting his cold watery shafts: sharp pointed arrows of hail were shot from the sky. But Zeus armed himself with more fires than Helios (the Sun) and melted the petrified water with hotter sparks.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why Cronus have ice related powers in this passage?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I never read about him having any relation with ice or water&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30084" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10674" RevisionGUID="77515906-d666-4e85-893d-e1d54c0b991f" CreationDate="2023-04-03T21:13:10.880" UserId="10148" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="I was reading the page of Cronus in Theoi , when I saw this passage, which talked about the fight between Zeus and Cronus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Broadbeard Kronos fanned the flame of Enyo (War) as he cast icy spears against Kronion (Cronion) [Zeus], shooting his cold watery shafts: sharp pointed arrows of hail were shot from the sky. But Zeus armed himself with more fires than Helios (the Sun) and melted the petrified water with hotter sparks.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why Cronus have ice related powers in this passage?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I never read about him having any relation with ice or water.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30085" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10674" RevisionGUID="4ad40420-0ae7-49a7-9bb3-0a70388ba62c" CreationDate="2023-04-03T21:19:38.153" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar, improved formatting, &amp; added tags" Text="I was reading the page of Cronus on Theoi.com when I saw this passage, which talks about the fight between Zeus and Cronus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Broadbeard Kronos fanned the flame of Enyo (War) as he cast icy spears&#xD;&#xA;&gt; against Kronion (Cronion) [Zeus], shooting his cold watery shafts:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sharp pointed arrows of hail were shot from the sky. But Zeus armed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; himself with more fires than Helios (the Sun) and melted the petrified&#xD;&#xA;&gt; water with hotter sparks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why does Cronus have ice-related powers in this passage?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I never read about him having any relation with ice or water." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30086" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="10674" RevisionGUID="4ad40420-0ae7-49a7-9bb3-0a70388ba62c" CreationDate="2023-04-03T21:19:38.153" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar, improved formatting, &amp; added tags" Text="|greek|zeus|titans|water|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30089" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="10622" RevisionGUID="3b468df1-a5d0-4ca3-b10a-eedf8835eb71" CreationDate="2023-04-05T21:02:40.337" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30092" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10677" RevisionGUID="51b12b10-fe77-424f-b0e5-7514508f495a" CreationDate="2023-04-07T01:47:35.993" UserId="4022" Text="The titans never really had specified &quot;powers&quot;, per se. They were never worshipped as widely as the Olympians, and their role in mythology is mostly to be overthrown by their children. Since they were sealed beneath the earth by Zeus and his siblings, they also weren't really thought to be responsible for phenomena in day-to-day life, like how Zeus could be the cause of a storm or Artemis of a disease.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, Hesiod (and others in his tradition) did want to draw parallels between the titans and their children; it's been suggested that he made up some new titans to get their number up to 12. So it seems entirely plausible that some mythographer would have assigned them roles in the cosmos, with one of them being the titan equivalent of Zeus, another of Poseidon, and so on. But as far as I know, nobody ever did (at least not in a way that survives).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a result, Cronus's powers are shaped by the need to have a dramatic struggle for kingship against his son. That's his main role in the entire mythos. You could perhaps think of him as a god of kingship, the divine representation of one dynasty being overthrown by another. Since Zeus's famous weapon is the thunderbolt, Nonnus decided to give Cronus similarly stormy armaments for the conflict, to emphasize the parallels between them." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30094" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10678" RevisionGUID="f88b3531-ceed-44c2-ad56-770574d5556f" CreationDate="2023-04-08T03:19:12.617" UserId="10161" Text="In the [tvtropes article on Youkai](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Youkai), the following remark is made on the meaning of &quot;obake&quot;:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Obake* is another Japanese word that can indicate some type of  monster. Derived from the word for &quot;to change&quot;, it generally covers the  subset of youkai that includes shapeshifting animals (hence the terms *bake-gitsune*, *bake-neko*, etc.) as well as [Animate Inanimate Objects](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnimateInanimateObject) 〔i.e. *tsukumogami*〕. Confusingly, however, the word *obake* can also be used to refer to ghosts, also known as *yuurei*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[The Wikipedia article on Yōkai](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y%C5%8Dkai) contains the (unsourced) statement that&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;*Yōkai* that shapeshift are known as *bakemono* (化け物) or [*obake*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obake) (お化け).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Wikipedia article on Obake](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obake) contains the (unsourced) statement that&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Literally, the terms mean *a thing that changes*, referring to a state of transformation or [shapeshifting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shapeshifting).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The implication that the *bakeru* root of obake/bakemono is related to the ability to shapeshift is a strong one at least as far as public opinion on the internet goes, despite the inconsistencies that can be noted with this etymology. In my estimation, the less incongruous root of the term would be that it refers to beings that *have undergone a change*; they might also (coincidentally) have shape-shifting powers. Many (perhaps not all) of the shape-shifting animals, which are considered *obake*, are transformations that happen when an animal has lived for a considerable amount of time (commonly 100 years); the *tsukumogami*, being items, commonly attain their status by considerable age as well, in particular by having been abandoned or forgotten or not well kept. In the case of *yurei*, the transition is that from the living to the dead. While this etymology seems to capture all of the cases that fall under *obake* (shapeshifting animals, animated items, ghosts), it would also exclude some other *yōkai* that are shapeshifters, but have not undergone a transformation, such as most prominently the *oni*, which ought to fall under *obake* if we considered it to refer to shapeshifting.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is my reading of obake as referring to &quot;transformed entity&quot;, rather than to &quot;shapeshifter&quot;, a sensible one? Is there any support for it? Any credible scholarly sources that contravene it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30096" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10678" RevisionGUID="f88b3531-ceed-44c2-ad56-770574d5556f" CreationDate="2023-04-08T03:19:12.617" UserId="10161" Text="Should &quot;obake&quot; be understood to refer to shapeshifters, or rather to things that have been transformed?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30097" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10678" RevisionGUID="f88b3531-ceed-44c2-ad56-770574d5556f" CreationDate="2023-04-08T03:19:12.617" UserId="10161" Text="|japanese|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30099" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10679" RevisionGUID="72ca8516-2cd5-440d-aa83-f6408d29c629" CreationDate="2023-04-09T17:07:54.003" UserId="9630" Text="There may be no answer to this, as Greek mythology is full of inconsistent timelines, but is there any known indication of how long it took Daedalus to build the labyrinth? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Presuming Minos orders Daedalus to start building directly after the birth of Asterius (Asterion; the Minotaur), do we know how long it took to build something so vast?  Part of the reason I'm interested in this is that it elicits the question of what they did with Asterius in the interim.  Similarly, does Asterius have a known age?  He is imprisoned in the labyrinth for two cycles of the Great Year (either 7 or 9 years) before Theseus arrives on the third cycle and slaughters him.  Was he held elsewhere before this?  Presumably, Asterius is not an infant when the first cycle is sent from Athens, as he's capable of killing the 14 youths. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I know there is another theory that the Palace of Minos itself was the labyrinth, designed by Daedalus.  I like this theory, though it feels difficult to reconcile with the Theseus myth.  Out of curiosity, is there any indication of how long it took Daedalus to build the palace?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks, and let me know if anything in my question is unclear." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30101" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10679" RevisionGUID="72ca8516-2cd5-440d-aa83-f6408d29c629" CreationDate="2023-04-09T17:07:54.003" UserId="9630" Text="How long did it take Daedalus to build the Labyrinth" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30102" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10679" RevisionGUID="72ca8516-2cd5-440d-aa83-f6408d29c629" CreationDate="2023-04-09T17:07:54.003" UserId="9630" Text="|greek|theseus|daedalus|labyrinth|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30107" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="3361" RevisionGUID="43f26056-80ff-4b79-bf26-8fe13a96678e" CreationDate="2023-04-10T21:23:26.257" UserId="-1" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:-1,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Community&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="30113" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="6028" RevisionGUID="d2464789-535a-4aef-9206-055edf4a03ff" CreationDate="2023-04-13T22:30:51.957" UserId="398" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;cmw&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="30116" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10683" RevisionGUID="a29a428c-756a-40b5-bd01-5f04e0f30af2" CreationDate="2023-04-14T14:38:55.263" UserId="7095" Text="It turns out that back in the middle of the 19th century, it was suggested by Shlomo Yehudah Rapoport (Erech Milin, pp. [30][2]-33) that the festival referred to in this Talmudic source is the [Ludi Saecularis][3] (at least that of ca. 247, 248 or 249 CE), which featured a lame dancer carrying a healthy person dressed in leather and wearing a mask. This suggestion seems to have been accepted by many scholars. See [here][1], pp. 156-157, [here][4] and [here][5], pp. 337-339.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.academia.edu/521448/Scalping_in_Roman_Palestine_minime_Romanum_sacrum_&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=34502&amp;st=&amp;pgnum=38&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_Games&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.bc.edu/content/dam/files/research_sites/cjl/texts/cjrelations/resources/sourcebook/relics_ishmael.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://history.ucla.edu/sites/default/files/u184/boustan/my_articles/rishmael_fortress.pdf" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30118" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10684" RevisionGUID="98b877bd-720d-46ea-b97b-bcc04ac90eb4" CreationDate="2023-04-14T21:18:51.303" UserId="10181" Text="Egregore- &#xD;&#xA;Egregore (also spelled egregor; from French égrégore, from Ancient Greek ἐγρήγορος, egrēgoros 'wakeful') is an occult concept representing a non-physical entity that arises from the collective thoughts of a distinct group of people" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30132" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2417" RevisionGUID="923b5a8d-5933-41f8-8ed3-27e322e1ba94" CreationDate="2023-04-19T04:18:08.490" UserId="6920" Comment="correct parentage" Text="She's a daughter of Chronos in her own right, and so has *some* power on his footing. However, I wouldn't say Zeus is a hen-pecked husband. In the *Iliad* ([560-569](https://records.viu.ca/~johnstoi/homer/iliad1.htm)), Zeus states unequivocally that he is the supreme being of the universe:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zeus, the cloud gatherer, spoke out in response:  &#xD;&#xA;“My dear lady, you’re always fancying things.  &#xD;&#xA;Your attention picks up every detail.  &#xD;&#xA;But you can’t do anything about it,  &#xD;&#xA;except push yourself still further from my heart,  &#xD;&#xA;making matters so much worse for you.  &#xD;&#xA;If things are as they are, then that’s the way  &#xD;&#xA;I want them. So sit down quietly.  &#xD;&#xA;Do as I say. If not, then all the gods  &#xD;&#xA;here on Olympus won’t be any help,  &#xD;&#xA;when I reach out to set my hands on you,  &#xD;&#xA;for they’re invincible.”  &#xD;&#xA;Zeus finished speaking.  &#xD;&#xA;Ox-eyed queen Hera was afraid—so she sat down,  &#xD;&#xA;silently suppressing what her heart desired.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, Hera is his wife, so why deliberately incur her wrath? That's the real reason to hide affairs, human or divine." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30133" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2417" RevisionGUID="923b5a8d-5933-41f8-8ed3-27e322e1ba94" CreationDate="2023-04-19T04:18:08.490" Comment="Proposed by 6920 approved by -1 edit id of 1923" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30134" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2417" RevisionGUID="6f0c3685-dc6f-4116-884c-1305f40bef82" CreationDate="2023-04-19T04:18:08.490" UserId="398" Comment="correct parentage" Text="She's a daughter of Cronus in her own right, and so has *some* power on his footing. However, I wouldn't say Zeus is a hen-pecked husband. In the *Iliad* ([560-569](https://records.viu.ca/~johnstoi/homer/iliad1.htm)), Zeus states unequivocally that he is the supreme being of the universe:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zeus, the cloud gatherer, spoke out in response:  &#xD;&#xA;“My dear lady, you’re always fancying things.  &#xD;&#xA;Your attention picks up every detail.  &#xD;&#xA;But you can’t do anything about it,  &#xD;&#xA;except push yourself still further from my heart,  &#xD;&#xA;making matters so much worse for you.  &#xD;&#xA;If things are as they are, then that’s the way  &#xD;&#xA;I want them. So sit down quietly.  &#xD;&#xA;Do as I say. If not, then all the gods  &#xD;&#xA;here on Olympus won’t be any help,  &#xD;&#xA;when I reach out to set my hands on you,  &#xD;&#xA;for they’re invincible.”  &#xD;&#xA;Zeus finished speaking.  &#xD;&#xA;Ox-eyed queen Hera was afraid—so she sat down,  &#xD;&#xA;silently suppressing what her heart desired.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, Hera is his wife, so why deliberately incur her wrath? That's the real reason to hide affairs, human or divine." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30152" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5920" RevisionGUID="1281c4e9-983b-4356-8162-1cb804e0e38e" CreationDate="2023-04-29T13:53:52.847" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar" Text="**&quot;Athena-ish&quot; Ares?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the mythology, beyond the fact that Ares is a great-nephew of Themis (since she is a sister of his grandparents Kronos [Cronus] and Rhea), the Titan-goddess never interacts with this god. And the Ares in this hymn is indeed so incongruous with the character we do encounter in the mythology as to seem an entirely different personage, as though he has already fully fleshed out into his later, statelier, more domesticated Roman counterpart Mars. For this reason Josho Brouwers of the Ancient World Magazine believes that &quot;it seems unlikely that the poem is very early.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the same way that, at Sparta, Aphrodite was worshipped as Areia, essentially a female version of Ares, here Ares seems to have popped out as a male version of Athena, this goddess typically being the one filling the role that Mars eventually does for the Roman state, as the deity presiding over the intellectual and strategic aspects of war rather than personifying the fury, disorder, ruin and horror accompanying it, as Ares typically does. Just as Athena was also, at Athens, closely enough associated with Ares to also be worshipped as Areia, &quot;Of Ares,&quot; it shouldn't be such a stretch to see, in this hymn, the figure of something like an &quot;Ares Atheneios.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Ares in the Sky**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding the words occurring right after the ovation of epithets which include &quot;ally of Themis,&quot; the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica &quot;Ares&quot; article says that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; It is to be noted, however, that in this little poem he is to some&#xD;&#xA;&gt; extent confounded with the planet named after him (Ares, or Mars).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interpreting this song as addressed to *Areios*, &quot;Of Ares,&quot; i.e. the *planet* Mars, would make a lot of sense of it, if it is in fact fair to understand it as an astrological prayer in which the zodiacal ruler (who is borne across the firmament by &quot;blazing steeds&quot;) is being invoked to grant favourable portents presaging peace rather than war. The light of the star is requested to &quot;Shed down a kindly ray from above upon my life&quot;—positive energy, literally.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The deity who personified the planet Mars was a star-god named Pyroeis, the &quot;Fiery&quot; One, so-called because of the reddish colour of his light. Theoi.com's &quot;Pyroeis&quot; encyclopedia entry follows the Encyclopædia Britannica's interpretation even more expressly, saying of Homeric Hymn 8 that: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ares is here the star Mars.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The hymn is also the only source of an alternate parentage for Nike, the personification and goddess of victory, who here is Ares' daughter (whereas in every other instance her parents are the Titan Pallas and the River Styx, she herself being a Titaness, like Themis is). To me it seems quite in order to perceive her here as merely an abstraction, and the mention of paternity to be simply a reference to the idea that Ares, &quot;War&quot; (or rather the *star Areios* and all its symbolic significance?), gives rise to conquest, i.e. Nike.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Other Connections?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The 2011 blog-post &quot;Ares, Dike, and Themis&quot;, from the blog &quot;Aspis of Ares: A Devotional Exploration of Ares, the God of War&quot;, and the 2017 article &quot;Understanding Ares&quot; on *PaganBloggers: Of Magic and Devotion*, in seeking to explain the connection of which you ask, both, incidentally, recall the myth which gives Athena her title of Areia. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story goes that Ares, to either protect or avenge his daughter the Attikan princess Alkippe [Alcippe], killed Poseidon's son Halirrhothios [Halirrhothius], who had raped (or had attempted to rape) her. Poseidon filed a suit against Ares, whom the other Olympian gods judged in the first ever murder trial, upon the hill in Athens which afterwards would be called Areiopagos [Areopagus], &quot;Ares' Crag.&quot; Ares was acquitted by the assembly, and the story is supposed to explain why at this court, from then on, whenever the jury's votes are equally divided, it is assumed that Athena, a silent member of the gathering, has voted in favour of the accused, thus acquitting him. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This seems to imply that the Olympians were themselves equally divided in the verdict against Ares until Athena, presumably the last one (of eleven members?) to vote, broke the deadlock by favouring Ares. And presumably also we are to understand this to have been the right decision. Later on in the same city, in Plato's time, the police of Athens are called &quot;the officers of Ares&quot; (*Laws* 670b). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;PTH, the author of &quot;Ares, Dike, and Themis&quot;, notes also the story about how the mortal king Sisyphos [Sisyphus] once tricked and kidnapped Thanatos, Death himself, who was then rescued from this ignominy by Ares. Based on this, Theoi calls Ares &quot;the policeman of the gods&quot;, and as additional support for the notion, the site also displays an image from [a Classical Attic Red Figure *kantharos*](https://www.theoi.com/Gallery/K4.12.html) (again the region of Athens is in view here) depicting &quot;The criminal Ixion who planned to seduce Hera&quot; being &quot;apprehended by the gods Ares and Hermes.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All these allusions seem quite tangential to me as far as attempting to elaborate on a link between Ares and Themis. The Titan-goddess's involvement herein, if we can call it such, is distant and inadvertent merely because &quot;justice&quot;—an especially broad and fluid term, especially over the millennia and into the modern era—is her domain. Maybe &quot;Themis&quot; in the hymn simply means &quot;Custom&quot; or &quot;Tradition,&quot; which war has often been employed in order to maintain.  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30157" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10693" RevisionGUID="94b6166d-7f5c-4ad5-beb8-cd6bb4f3d1c9" CreationDate="2023-05-02T09:07:44.290" UserId="8896" Text="From my understanding, daimons are a race of beings that are immortal, but they are not gods. Like they are above humans but below gods." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30159" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10693" RevisionGUID="94b6166d-7f5c-4ad5-beb8-cd6bb4f3d1c9" CreationDate="2023-05-02T09:07:44.290" UserId="8896" Text="What's the difference between daimons and gods in Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30160" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10693" RevisionGUID="94b6166d-7f5c-4ad5-beb8-cd6bb4f3d1c9" CreationDate="2023-05-02T09:07:44.290" UserId="8896" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30161" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10694" RevisionGUID="68f93661-5a9a-4669-9dec-5e4196cbcc24" CreationDate="2023-05-02T21:50:19.997" UserId="398" Text="The word *daimon* in Greek (δαίμων) generally just meant &quot;divine power.&quot; It's god in the abstract. This is especially true at the earlier stages of Greek literature, such as in the Homeric epics. All gods are *daimones*, but not all *daimones* are Olympians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greeks had many different types of divinities, in myth differentiated by parentage. In practice, though, the gods that populate the world come in all different forms, and they can all be called *daimones*. This would include the Titans, the Olympians, nymphs, ancestral souls, tutelary deities, and other types of spirits.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this sense, *daimon* is most similar to the Shinto kami.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As time went on, it generally referred to the more powerful gods, chiefly the Olympians and Titans, less and less. By the Roman era, &quot;spirit&quot; is the better translation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See [for yourself](https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=daimwn&amp;la=greek#lexicon) all the different ways the Greeks used this word." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30165" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10695" RevisionGUID="b7ab20de-9c33-4eda-b45b-edca07895af2" CreationDate="2023-05-04T17:10:11.977" UserId="9925" Text="## Dyeus Phater is Everywhere ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To &quot;Yes, and...&quot; off TEDs answer - the Dyeus Phater probably originated North of the Black Sea around 3,500 BC, and he spread to a remarkable number of places. There are echos of Dyeus in the Vedic Indra and the Irish Dagda, for example.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Proto-Anatolian broke off PIE around 3,000BC, and Proto-Greek around 2,000BC as waves of PIE migrants spread out from their homeland (probably modern day Ukraine). By the time the Iliad was written (circa 800 BC) the idea of Dyeus was nearly 3000 years old!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So both the Greeks and the Trojans would have worshiped a Sky God that descended from Dyeus, but these gods would have had around 2,000 years to drift apart. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The chief deities of these two groups would have had many common attributes, but would have had distinct personalities and stories - which might not seem consistent when merged, but human nature is to steal good stories, so the best tales from the two cultures would surely be &quot;traded.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## More Zeus Analogues ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I used the example of Greek and Anatolian mythology above, but its worth remembering that Proto-Italic, Proto-Balto-Slavic (including Macedonian), Proto-Albanian, Proto-Celtic, and Proto-German are all PIE languages.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Greek speakers would have seen Zeus analogues all around them, because all those cultures had some deity descendant from Dyeus Phater - **but the all had their own, divergent history.** It seems likely that the Greeks may have absorbed some of the personality of those neighboring Zeus' over time - which can lead to a kind of fractured personality.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So yes, there were probably many different traditions that the Greeks would have recognized as &quot;Zeus-like&quot; and may have contributed to Zeus' overall mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30169" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10696" RevisionGUID="13d39017-f760-4b60-a331-08c4eb161e4a" CreationDate="2023-05-06T05:36:01.243" UserId="8708" Text="It is commonly stated in books (including Merriam-Webster's dictionary) that the Augean Stables hadn't been cleaned for 30 years prior to the labor of Heracles, yet none of those books list a source for that detail.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Searching on Topostexts I have been unable to find any:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Diodorus Siculus only says&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; These stables contained an enormous mass of dung which had accumulated&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **over a great period**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A vague &quot;great period&quot;, not specifically thirty years.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pseudo-Apollodorus Bibliotheca makes no mention of how long the stables went uncleaned.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dio Chrysostom writes&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But before that, to avoid creating the opinion that he did only&#xD;&#xA;&gt; impressive and mighty deeds, he went and removed and cleaned away the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dung in the Augean stables, that immense accumulation of **many years**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not specifically thirty years.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lucian of Samosata writes&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I may not cleanse that Augean stable completely, but I will do my&#xD;&#xA;&gt; best, and fetch you out a few loads as samples of the unspeakable&#xD;&#xA;&gt; filth that three thousand oxen could produce in **many years**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Again, only a vague amount of years, no specific mention of thirty years.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Robert Graves, perhaps knowing there was no ancient authority for the figure of thirty years, only said&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Now, the dung in Augeias's cattle yard and sheepfolds had not been&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cleared away for **many years**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any source that specifically states thirty years, and if not, how did this exact number become so prevalent in books today?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30171" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10696" RevisionGUID="13d39017-f760-4b60-a331-08c4eb161e4a" CreationDate="2023-05-06T05:36:01.243" UserId="8708" Text="Is there an ancient source that says the Augean Stables hadn't been cleaned for 30 years?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30172" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10696" RevisionGUID="13d39017-f760-4b60-a331-08c4eb161e4a" CreationDate="2023-05-06T05:36:01.243" UserId="8708" Text="|greek|source-request|hercules|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30173" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10697" RevisionGUID="5adcbc4a-5729-4652-bb40-6a53a7e49b09" CreationDate="2023-05-06T07:29:07.780" UserId="10190" Text="This is a good question, but because Minoan culture (ie. pre-Greek Cretan civilisation) has two main contemporary written sources: Linear A and Linear B script, and since Linear A is still as-yet not deciphered, and in Linear B there just isn't a lot of anything written very specifically about their religious worship. Arthur Evans is your main original source of info about the Minoans and he tends to lean towards this mother goddess exclusively (an unnamed mother goddess), though since Evans we've discovered how rich Minoan religion must have been. But with a lack of contemporary written sources actually describing the names of their deities and so on, we can only take guesses at it based on physical archaeological evidence of frescoes and pottery and so on. The bull has always been a significant motif in pre-Greek religious practices on Crete (you find it everywhere), plus evidence of &quot;Isis knots&quot; as they're called, unusual hairstyles (that may have been caste or age or religion-connected, or not), Double-Axes (that literally look like the one He-man wielded in MOTU cartoon of the 80's) but are impractical for actual use as a weapon, so it's concluded that they're ceremonial exclusively and the double-nature of the axe being connected to the 'horns' of the bull again, and so on and so on. It's very elaborate... but we don't have the details unfortunately. The Minotaur of course is a Greek myth, but the pre-Greek Minoan culture was so heavily centred around the motif of the bull that the Minotaur's creation by Greeks is an obvious homage to what they perceived as being typical *indigenous* Cretan religious iconography/motif and so on. Hope that helps." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30180" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10696" RevisionGUID="0d6e51f5-3d86-4aa3-8018-c44cf3912b31" CreationDate="2023-05-07T01:46:14.893" UserId="8708" Comment="edited title" Text="Is there any ancient source that says the Augean Stables hadn't been cleaned for 30 years?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30181" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10699" RevisionGUID="6c0a2db8-7a1f-4d25-bbf6-58f4f73d9115" CreationDate="2023-05-08T10:22:25.500" UserId="108" Text="The oldest reference to the 30 year figure I've been able to find, comes from a 17th century translation of Diodorus Siculus' *Bibliotheca historic*, translated by H.C. Gent and published in 1653.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That version states:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; . . . informed him by way of disgrace that he alone by himself, without the help of any other, should cleanse Augeas his stable, which held three thousand Oxen, and had not in thirty years been purged.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of course, Siculus' original Greek states only &quot;πολλῶν χρόνων&quot;, literally, &quot;many years&quot;. The rest of the passage however closely tracks and is obviously a direct translation, as advertised.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So it seems 30 years is merely an artistic choice on the part of the translator, who used a large-ish number of years to mean 'long time'. Similar to how old Chinese commonly uses &quot;nine&quot; as a non-exact imaginary number denoting many." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30184" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5258" RevisionGUID="cea765fc-335d-4fa8-908a-bed17e204d32" CreationDate="2023-05-09T21:08:00.547" UserId="3315" Comment="typos corrected" Text="# Many primal ~agricultural deities tended to be female. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By primal I mean more rudimentary natural life oriented concepts like plants, fertility, growing. This is in contrast to more sophisticated agricultural gods associated more with technological advancements and or harnessing of natural forces. The latter group tended to have higher populations of men.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# My Explanation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One obvious biological difference between men and women is women's ability to bear and produce life. In the absence of scientific knowledge, it would be logical to associate life bringing natural aspects with feminine traits. Because it takes two copulate, is why male gods are not completely removed from agricultural deities. This cannot explain exactly the gender assignments of gods across societies because social traits very respective to the region tended to influence it heavily. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# [Egyptians][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These guys are difficult but if you look at it with respect to their geography my point remains:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Anuket** - Goddess of the Nile&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Qetesh** - Goddess of **nature**, beauty, sacred ecstasy , and sexual pleasure&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Isis** - Major Goddess of healing, there's also some pretty relevant tales in their too. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Tefnut** - was the ancient Egyptian goddess of water **and** fertility. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Here is where my point may seem to break down at face value:**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Geb** - Prominent God of Earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First thing to note is the Egyptians were a desert civilization where the majority of known land is dead, **lifeless**. Geb is also commonly associated with Earthquakes. This suggests that Geb is associated with a more crudely fundamental aspect of Earth like &quot;all land&quot;. Since &quot;all land&quot; from their perspective is mostly dead its no wonder ,with respect to my point, that he is a man. Notice how the majority of &quot;life oriented&quot; aspects are represented by female goddesses. Notice how a lot of water oriented aspects also tended to represented by female gods. In a desert civilization water would be the obvious life bringing force and since it takes two it again is no wonder the earth is a man. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now some wiki **may claim** that Geb is the god of vegetation, I think this is a misconception. Geb is portrayed in many ways. Some depictions of Geb color him green representing vegetation. Some depictions of Geb color him deep brown like fertile soil. Some depictions of Geb depict him sprouting flowers. It would be easy to assume he is a god of vegetation. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If you consider the many life bringing goddesses, if you think about Geb's depictions temporally, and you consider the possibility that Geb simply represents 'all land'; **Geb isn't the god of vegetation, vegetation is growing on Geb with the seasons.** Since it is the water that is bringing life you could imagine the vegetation to be like kids climbing on daddy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**As a Bonus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then there is Hapi. Who is this confused god of birds, fishes, marshes and &quot;river bringing vegetation&quot;. He is clearly semi associated with life bringing properties. He is always depicted with feminine features (breasts). In my opinion, one way to interpret his gender confusion is that it stems from the fact that he is bridging the divide between the feminine life bringing aquatic forces with the male land forces resulting in his gender confusion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# Now why this is relevant to the OP's question&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When you ask about mother earth vs father earth, in what way do you mean mother earth? Most commonly mother earth is synonymous with mother nature again binding female reproduction with life oriented aspects. For instance to say &quot;Mother Earth is dead&quot; isn't to say the Earth no longer exists only that all life on it has ceased. Following the common meaning of mother earth then mother earth for the Egyptians would be someone like Anuket, Quetesh, or most likely Tefnut and not Geb. &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Egyptian_gods_and_goddesses" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30185" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="5258" RevisionGUID="cea765fc-335d-4fa8-908a-bed17e204d32" CreationDate="2023-05-09T21:08:00.547" Comment="Proposed by 3315 approved by 53 edit id of 1924" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30186" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3194" RevisionGUID="6331614a-0fe9-466d-9637-89a1cd9fad46" CreationDate="2023-05-12T00:02:45.393" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30201" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10702" RevisionGUID="5764b490-3f8c-443c-9d56-1262c7b86e9f" CreationDate="2023-05-18T00:03:43.960" UserId="10250" Text="It is definitive a depiction of the solar system. It begins on the lower right above the elbow of the person with Mercure, then Venus, then Earth with it's moon (outside the planetsry ring), then Mars with two moons (one is visible in the above pictures, the other is hidden in the shadow of the edge), then Tiamat at the place of the current asteroid belt (refer to the Enuma Elish for that), then Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptun and at last the smaller Pluto. The special details of this depiction (earth with moon at the third place followed by Mars with two moons and the planet Pluto depicted smaller) are to consider as proof that it is a depiction of our Solar system." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30203" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10703" RevisionGUID="fb0773c5-32b9-4760-bef5-6f7691ac416d" CreationDate="2023-05-18T12:10:10.013" UserId="7755" Text="Legend has it that there is a secret tunnel leading from Holyrood Palace to Edinburgh Castle, and that Robbie the Piper was one day asked by the King of Scotland to go down and find this tunnel by playing his bagpipes, and a group of people up on the ground would follow the sound of his bagpipes. According to the legend, the group on the ground followed the sound of the bagpipes until suddenly the music stopped. Robbie was never seen again, though it is said that his ghost still haunts the tunnels underneath Edinburgh to this day. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Kelpies][1]&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The King of Scotland asked him to be Edinburgh’s official piper and stand on the highest point of the Castle Rock to play. Every day Robbie blew his pipes so strongly that the soldiers guarding the castle, the people strolling on the Royal Mile and the monarch in Holyrood Palace heard him.&#xD;&#xA;[![Robbie the piper][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I was just wondering, could it be worked out who the King of Scotland actually was?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://discoverkelpies.co.uk/the-ghostly-piper-of-edinburgh-castle/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/eZr5H.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30205" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10703" RevisionGUID="fb0773c5-32b9-4760-bef5-6f7691ac416d" CreationDate="2023-05-18T12:10:10.013" UserId="7755" Text="Who was the King of Scotland that asked Robbie to stand on Castle rock and play the bagpipes?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30206" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10703" RevisionGUID="fb0773c5-32b9-4760-bef5-6f7691ac416d" CreationDate="2023-05-18T12:10:10.013" UserId="7755" Text="|british|scottish|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30212" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="2321" RevisionGUID="94b547ad-0e79-44a9-adce-79875dba0d8b" CreationDate="2023-05-18T21:07:20.880" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30213" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10705" RevisionGUID="39639c5f-de78-4f92-b1fb-fb0532c2c823" CreationDate="2023-05-18T21:25:10.443" UserId="10148" Text="The earliest mention of Pandora seems to be Hesiod's Works and Days:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zeus in the anger of his heart hid it, because Prometheus the crafty deceived him; therefore he planned sorrow and mischief against men. He hid fire; but that the noble son of Iapetos stole again for men from Zeus the counsellor in a hollow fennel-stalk, so that Zeus who delights in thunder did not see it. But afterwards Zeus who gathers the clouds said to him in anger : ‘Son of Iapetos, surpassing all in cunning, you are glad that you have outwitted me and stolen fire--a great plague to you yourself and to men that shall be. But I will give men as the price for fire an evil thing in which they may all be glad of heart while they embrace their own destruction.’&#xD;&#xA;So said the father of men and gods, and laughed aloud. And he bade famous Hephaistos (Hephaestus) make haste and mix earth with water and to put in it the voice and strength of human kind, and fashion a sweet, lovely maiden-shape, like to the immortal goddesses in face; and Athene (Athena) to teach her needlework and the weaving of the varied web; and golden Aphrodite to shed grace upon her head and cruel longing and cares that weary the limbs. And he charged Hermes the guide, the Slayer of Argos, to put in her a shameless mind and a deceitful nature. So he ordered. And they obeyed the lord Zeus the son of Kronos (Cronus). Forthwith [Hephaistos] the famous Lame God moulded clay in the likeness of a modest maid, as the son of Kronos purposed. And the goddess bright-eyed Athene girded and clothed her, and the divine Kharites (Charites, Graces) and queenly Peitho (Persuasion) put necklaces of gold upon her, and the rich-haired Horai (Horae, Seasons) crowned her head with spring flowers. And Pallas Athene bedecked her form with all manners of finery. Also [Hermes] the Guide, the Slayer of Argos, contrived within her lies and crafty words and a deceitful nature at the will of loud thundering Zeus, and the Herald of the gods put speech in her. And he called this woman Pandora (All-Gifts), because all they who dwelt on Olympos gave each a gift, a plague to men who eat bread.&#xD;&#xA;But when he had finished the sheer, hopeless snare, the Father sent glorious Argus-Slayer [Hermes], the swift messenger of the gods, to take it to Epimetheus as a gift. And Epimetheus did not think on what Prometheus had said to him, bidding him never take a gift of Olympian Zeus, but to send it back for fear it might prove to be something harmful to men. But he took the gift, and afterwards, when the evil thing was already his, he understood. For ere this the tribes of men lived on earth remote and free from ills (kakoi) and hard toil (ponoi) and heavy sickness (nosoi) which bring the Keres (Fates) upon men; for in misery men grow old quickly. But the woman took off the great lid of the jar (pithos) with her hands and scattered all these and her thought caused sorrow and mischief to men. Only Elpis (Hope) remained there in an unbreakable home within under the rim of the great jar, and did not fly out at the door; for ere that, the lid of the jar stopped her, by the will of Aigis-holding Zeus who gathers the clouds. But the rest, countless plagues (lugra), wander amongst men; for earth is full of evils and the sea is full. Of themselves diseases (nosoi) come upon men continually by day and by night, bringing mischief to mortals silently; for wise Zeus took away speech from them. So is there no way to escape the will of Zeus.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not only does this version mention a jar instead of a box, it doesn't mention why Pandora opened the box, the popular version of this myth usually says that Pandora opened it out of curiosity, wanting to know what was inside, but Hesiod says nothing about that, and indeed considering the way Pandora is described by him, as cunning and deceitful ,rather than curious or naive, it wouldn't surprise me that she opened the jar on purpose, knowing what was inside.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The closest ancient source to the modern version of Pandora, which I found while researching, would be one of Aesop's fables:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Zeus gathered all the useful things together in a jar and put a lid on it. He then left the jar in human hands. But man had no self-control and he wanted to know what was in that jar, so he pushed the lid aside, letting those things go back to the abode of the gods. So all the good things flew away, soaring high above the earth, and Elpis (Hope) was the only thing left. When the lid was put back on the jar, Elpis (Hope) was kept inside. That is why Elpis (Hope) alone is still found among the people, promising that she will bestow on each of us the good things that have gone away.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This fable seems to resemble the modern version that we have of Pandora, where she opens the jar out of curiosity and impulse, seeking to know what's inside, and hope is the last thing that remains, despite that, it still has important differences, instead of evils, the jar contains good things, which goes away when the jar is opened, and Pandora is not mentioned, and it seems to be a man who opens the jar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Could it be that over the years the myth of Pandora has been mixed with this fable?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any ancient sources that mention why Pandora opened the box, or if she even knew what was inside?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30215" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10705" RevisionGUID="39639c5f-de78-4f92-b1fb-fb0532c2c823" CreationDate="2023-05-18T21:25:10.443" UserId="10148" Text="Where is it said that Pandora opened the box out of curiosity?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30216" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10705" RevisionGUID="39639c5f-de78-4f92-b1fb-fb0532c2c823" CreationDate="2023-05-18T21:25:10.443" UserId="10148" Text="|greek|pandora|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30217" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10703" RevisionGUID="cd26a503-d41c-4ba1-8aff-11a5615611dc" CreationDate="2023-05-19T07:20:17.130" UserId="7755" Comment="edited title" Text="Who was the King of Scotland that asked Robbie to stand on Castle Rock and play the bagpipes?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30218" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10706" RevisionGUID="44ee8618-3494-4d1e-90ce-f68e93728c57" CreationDate="2023-05-19T10:47:01.750" UserId="742" Text="Are there any sources about defiling and/or renouncing an idol in the ancient pagan world being a capital offense? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30220" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10706" RevisionGUID="44ee8618-3494-4d1e-90ce-f68e93728c57" CreationDate="2023-05-19T10:47:01.750" UserId="742" Text="Are there any sources about defiling and/or renouncing an idol being a capital offense?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30221" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10706" RevisionGUID="44ee8618-3494-4d1e-90ce-f68e93728c57" CreationDate="2023-05-19T10:47:01.750" UserId="742" Text="|source-request|iconography|pagan|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30222" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="10561" RevisionGUID="57613a7c-9c0a-4a61-8662-6328291ad437" CreationDate="2023-05-19T19:03:05.370" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30223" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10705" RevisionGUID="c390d9ee-94d2-40aa-b3ca-c9c066bdece2" CreationDate="2023-05-20T15:12:41.240" UserId="6920" Comment="grammar and formatting" Text="The earliest mention of Pandora seems to be Hesiod's Works and Days:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Zeus in the anger of his heart hid it, because Prometheus the crafty deceived him; therefore he planned sorrow and mischief against men. He hid fire; but that the noble son of Iapetos stole again for men from Zeus the counsellor in a hollow fennel-stalk, so that Zeus who delights in thunder did not see it. But afterwards Zeus who gathers the clouds said to him in anger : ‘Son of Iapetos, surpassing all in cunning, you are glad that you have outwitted me and stolen fire--a great plague to you yourself and to men that shall be. But I will give men as the price for fire an evil thing in which they may all be glad of heart while they embrace their own destruction.’&#xD;&#xA;So said the father of men and gods, and laughed aloud. And he bade famous Hephaistos (Hephaestus) make haste and mix earth with water and to put in it the voice and strength of human kind, and fashion a sweet, lovely maiden-shape, like to the immortal goddesses in face; and Athene (Athena) to teach her needlework and the weaving of the varied web; and golden Aphrodite to shed grace upon her head and cruel longing and cares that weary the limbs. And he charged Hermes the guide, the Slayer of Argos, to put in her a shameless mind and a deceitful nature. So he ordered. And they obeyed the lord Zeus the son of Kronos (Cronus). Forthwith [Hephaistos] the famous Lame God moulded clay in the likeness of a modest maid, as the son of Kronos purposed. And the goddess bright-eyed Athene girded and clothed her, and the divine Kharites (Charites, Graces) and queenly Peitho (Persuasion) put necklaces of gold upon her, and the rich-haired Horai (Horae, Seasons) crowned her head with spring flowers. And Pallas Athene bedecked her form with all manners of finery. Also [Hermes] the Guide, the Slayer of Argos, contrived within her lies and crafty words and a deceitful nature at the will of loud thundering Zeus, and the Herald of the gods put speech in her. And he called this woman Pandora (All-Gifts), because all they who dwelt on Olympos gave each a gift, a plague to men who eat bread.&#xD;&#xA;But when he had finished the sheer, hopeless snare, the Father sent glorious Argus-Slayer [Hermes], the swift messenger of the gods, to take it to Epimetheus as a gift. And Epimetheus did not think on what Prometheus had said to him, bidding him never take a gift of Olympian Zeus, but to send it back for fear it might prove to be something harmful to men. But he took the gift, and afterwards, when the evil thing was already his, he understood. For ere this the tribes of men lived on earth remote and free from ills (kakoi) and hard toil (ponoi) and heavy sickness (nosoi) which bring the Keres (Fates) upon men; for in misery men grow old quickly. But the woman took off the great lid of the jar (pithos) with her hands and scattered all these and her thought caused sorrow and mischief to men. Only Elpis (Hope) remained there in an unbreakable home within under the rim of the great jar, and did not fly out at the door; for ere that, the lid of the jar stopped her, by the will of Aigis-holding Zeus who gathers the clouds. But the rest, countless plagues (lugra), wander amongst men; for earth is full of evils and the sea is full. Of themselves diseases (nosoi) come upon men continually by day and by night, bringing mischief to mortals silently; for wise Zeus took away speech from them. So is there no way to escape the will of Zeus.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Not only does this version mention a jar instead of a box, it doesn't mention why Pandora opened the box.  The popular version of this myth usually says that Pandora opened it out of curiosity, wanting to know what was inside, but Hesiod says nothing about that, and indeed considering the way Pandora is described by him, as cunning and deceitful, rather than curious or naive, it wouldn't surprise me that she opened the jar on purpose, knowing what was inside.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The closest ancient source to the modern version of Pandora, which I found while researching, would be one of Aesop's fables:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Zeus gathered all the useful things together in a jar and put a lid on it. He then left the jar in human hands. But man had no self-control and he wanted to know what was in that jar, so he pushed the lid aside, letting those things go back to the abode of the gods. So all the good things flew away, soaring high above the earth, and Elpis (Hope) was the only thing left. When the lid was put back on the jar, Elpis (Hope) was kept inside. That is why Elpis (Hope) alone is still found among the people, promising that she will bestow on each of us the good things that have gone away.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This fable seems to resemble the modern version that we have of Pandora, where she opens the jar out of curiosity and impulse, seeking to know what's inside, and hope is the last thing that remains.  Despite that, it still has important differences, instead of evils, the jar contains good things, which goes away when the jar is opened, and Pandora is not mentioned, and it seems to be a man who opens the jar.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Could it be that over the years the myth of Pandora has been mixed with this fable?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Are there any ancient sources that mention why Pandora opened the box, or if she even knew what was inside?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30224" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="10705" RevisionGUID="c390d9ee-94d2-40aa-b3ca-c9c066bdece2" CreationDate="2023-05-20T15:12:41.240" Comment="Proposed by 6920 approved by 53 edit id of 1925" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30225" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10707" RevisionGUID="ee313914-0675-429c-9267-cea632df5608" CreationDate="2023-05-20T23:07:35.143" UserId="10257" Text="&#xD;&#xA;The creation of life from clay is a theme that appears throughout world religions and mythologies.&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_of_life_from_clay&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;the question is: why did their imagination pick &quot;clay&quot; rather than other substances?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30227" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10707" RevisionGUID="ee313914-0675-429c-9267-cea632df5608" CreationDate="2023-05-20T23:07:35.143" UserId="10257" Text="Why did the makers of the myth of &quot;Creation of human from clay&quot;, choose clay?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30228" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10707" RevisionGUID="ee313914-0675-429c-9267-cea632df5608" CreationDate="2023-05-20T23:07:35.143" UserId="10257" Text="|creation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30229" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10707" RevisionGUID="17a1847d-4309-4954-838f-d50c0e5b8424" CreationDate="2023-05-20T23:14:33.070" UserId="10257" Comment="edited title" Text="Why did the creators of the myth &quot;Creation of human from clay&quot; choose clay?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30230" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10707" RevisionGUID="8a3f6758-6bd8-4546-9ac8-8374126b768d" CreationDate="2023-05-20T23:17:23.610" UserId="10257" Comment="edited title" Text="Why did the creators of the myth &quot;man was created from clay&quot; choose clay?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30231" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6144" RevisionGUID="ab146007-64a9-45a3-838b-4861a3f7b4c0" CreationDate="2023-05-21T05:08:46.107" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30237" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="10379" RevisionGUID="c55a8074-3bcd-4053-954f-78bff377ac68" CreationDate="2023-05-22T17:06:40.793" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30239" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10709" RevisionGUID="23a78b89-f56a-4747-b66a-1edd1c6eb6c6" CreationDate="2023-05-24T01:15:43.577" UserId="6920" Text="Legends of Saint Agnes sometimes state that she was sentenced to be exposed naked to the public, and her hair grew so long as to cover her body, or a shining white garment appeared to cover her.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Saint Eulalia's naked body, after her martyrdom, was said to be covered up by a miraculous snowfall." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30246" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10711" RevisionGUID="6c590ed1-feb8-4efb-9d1b-e742cbbf8711" CreationDate="2023-05-24T19:41:23.420" UserId="9925" Text="## Kurgan Culture ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Kurgans][1] are large burial mounds that originated in Pontic steppe around 6000 BC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The horse was domesticated in the Pontic-Caspian steppe around 3500 BC, and the chariot was likely invented by the same culture shortly thereafter.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This culture eventually became very [influential][2], giving birth to the Indo-European language family, as the culture expanded into and merged with the populations of Europe, modern Iran, and India.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Chariot Burials ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kurgans had always had grave goods associated with the burial - weapons, pots, offerings, etc. By around 2000 BC some began to include [chariots][3].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Nordic Bronze Age ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Corded Ware][4] culture brought a version / descendant of Kurgan culture to Scandinavia between 3000 BC and 2000BC. This influence can be seen in burial customs like the mound at [Haga][5].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Putting it Together ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ship Burials can be seen as a continuation of the earlier Chariot Burials, which are both subsets of Kurgan (mound) burials. This all traces back to the Proto-Indo-Europeans, whose culture became widely influential after they domesticated the horse and (likely) invented the chariot.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_hypothesis&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot_burial&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A5ga_mound" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30248" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10712" RevisionGUID="2f7025f3-b403-40fc-907a-227b04233bed" CreationDate="2023-05-24T20:20:44.307" UserId="9630" Text="I have no idea if this is the right place to ask this, but it felt like the best bet.  I discovered this crudely carved wooden symbol/cross in a basement (see picture below).  Any idea what it might represent?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It doesn't seem to be any [common Christian cross][1] given the bent horn-like things on top.  I didn't find any other symbols or wooden bits nearby so I assume this is the whole thing.  It's possible it might be some tool or jig used in construction, but I can't imagine what purpose it could serve.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thanks for your help, and let me know if there's any additional information I can add.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![carved wooden symbol/cross in dark basement][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_cross_variants&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ECoB6.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30250" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10712" RevisionGUID="2f7025f3-b403-40fc-907a-227b04233bed" CreationDate="2023-05-24T20:20:44.307" UserId="9630" Text="What is the meaning of this wooden symbol found in a basement?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30251" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10712" RevisionGUID="2f7025f3-b403-40fc-907a-227b04233bed" CreationDate="2023-05-24T20:20:44.307" UserId="9630" Text="|symbolism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30252" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10713" RevisionGUID="4df4ba77-1dfa-4259-a75a-31088a919ea9" CreationDate="2023-05-25T04:00:45.577" UserId="398" Text="Because clay is easily shaped by people. Unlike metal, clay is a very straightforward material to shape it in any shape you want.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And it's super, super ancient. We've found clay figurines over 20 thousand years before these myths were recorded.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Czech clay figurines were discovered that are possibly [over 30,000 years old](https://karoart.eu/blogs/news/ancient-art-of-working-with-clay-and-venus-whos-at-the-beginning-of-it-all). Shaping figurines by clay could have given early peoples an ancient and concrete example to reference for the creation of man." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30255" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10713" RevisionGUID="ade36848-1af3-4103-8a55-bd9283047901" CreationDate="2023-05-25T14:23:46.113" UserId="398" Comment="added 408 characters in body" Text="Because clay is easily shaped by people. Unlike metal, clay is a very straightforward material to mold it into any shape you want. Add some heat and it becomes rigid. It takes much more skill to shape wood or stone and more advanced technology to mold metal.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And it's super, super ancient. We've found clay figurines over 20 thousand years before these myths were recorded. Czech clay figurines were discovered that are possibly [over 30,000 years old](https://karoart.eu/blogs/news/ancient-art-of-working-with-clay-and-venus-whos-at-the-beginning-of-it-all). Shaping figurines by clay could have given early peoples an ancient and concrete example to reference for the creation of man.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meanwhile, you do have legends of other beings made of different materials. Gollums, for example, are made out of stone, and the Greeks imagined a whole host of people made out of wood or different metals, including people. So clay was not the only material used in these myths." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30258" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10714" RevisionGUID="fa4e9de4-021a-4667-8219-e0db6f1ac748" CreationDate="2023-05-26T12:05:33.097" UserId="10278" Text="Like in the title said is there? If there is mind anyone help me by listing them?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30260" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10714" RevisionGUID="fa4e9de4-021a-4667-8219-e0db6f1ac748" CreationDate="2023-05-26T12:05:33.097" UserId="10278" Text="Are there group names for gods in Egyptian mythology, similar to the Norse and Greek mythologies primordials, titans, Æsir, Vanir?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30261" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10714" RevisionGUID="fa4e9de4-021a-4667-8219-e0db6f1ac748" CreationDate="2023-05-26T12:05:33.097" UserId="10278" Text="|egyptian|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30262" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10715" RevisionGUID="4b38cf48-8554-4a10-8429-ce87bee65d44" CreationDate="2023-05-27T15:14:49.057" UserId="398" Text="The Egyptian pantheon doesn't distinguish between their gods in the same way (and, in fact, the Norse and Greek groupings aren't really that similar either).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But there are ancient groupings. If you check Wikipedia, the groups of Egyptian deities are [clearly mentioned](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Egyptian_deities#Groups_of_deities). However, disappointingly, they neglect to really describe *why* these deities are grouped this way. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of these, the more famous groupings are the Ennead and Ogdoad, which means &quot;group of nine&quot; and &quot;group of eight&quot; respectively.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Ennead](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ennead):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Ennead or Great Ennead was a group of nine deities in Egyptian mythology worshipped at Heliopolis: the sun god Atum; his children Shu and Tefnut; their children Geb and Nut; and their children Osiris, Isis, Set, and Nephthys.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The [Ogdoad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogdoad_(Egyptian)):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Egyptian mythology, the Ogdoad were eight primordial deities worshiped in Hermopolis.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; References to the Ogdoad date to the Old Kingdom of Egypt, and even at the time of composition of the Pyramid Texts toward the end of the Old Kingdom, they appear to have been antiquated and mostly forgotten...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Nu, Naunet, Ḥeḥu, Ḥeḥut, Kekui, Kekuit, Qerḥ, Qerḥet" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30264" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6316" RevisionGUID="9785360a-4444-4d91-b64d-8e53d5ada0be" CreationDate="2023-05-30T22:08:00.970" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30265" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10716" RevisionGUID="9fa72807-ac97-421a-810f-48f47a260d82" CreationDate="2023-05-31T09:02:13.377" UserId="4152" Text="### Gothic Arch Window Frame&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;\&#xD;&#xA;I suspect that the best bet for this bit of wood is that was once part of a completely unmythical window frame. This bit would have been in the middle, and there would have been a larger, exterior frame around it. There are *loads* of different styles, sizes, and levels of fanciness to these things. The image below is illustrative rather than diagnostic for a particular style or make.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;\&#xD;&#xA;[![antiques.com][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/aFLuU.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30267" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10717" RevisionGUID="92581c50-63f2-46c1-8ef4-4bc89dc3e0ad" CreationDate="2023-05-31T18:00:20.313" UserId="10290" Text="# Pecos Bill&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is a delightful children's illustrated book *Pecos Bill (Steven Kellog)*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To avoid the problem of season cattle herding, Pecos Bill builds a mountain that is winter at the top and summer at the bottom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Bill's plan worked fine except that Pinnacle Peak was so steep the steers fell right off whenever there was a breeze. The men had to work harder than ever carrying the cattle back up the hill.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Bill solved that problem by inventing steers with very short legs on one side of their bodies. Even in a windstorm these cattle could stand securely on the sloop as long as they kept their short-legged sides uphill.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/nweOQ.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/7y4pu.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30269" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10717" RevisionGUID="c5458440-d6b8-4754-a48b-d7fee659ebc9" CreationDate="2023-05-31T18:09:10.060" UserId="10290" Comment="added 162 characters in body" Text="# Pecos Bill&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pecos Bill is is legendary cowboy in the American West.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Pecos Bill (Steven Kellog)* is a wonderful children's illustrated book. (I also recommend Kellog's books of American legends such Paul Bunyan and Johnny Appleseed.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The tale is that to avoid the problem of season cattle herding, Pecos Bill builds a mountain that is winter at the top and summer at the bottom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Bill's plan worked fine except that Pinnacle Peak was so steep the steers fell right off whenever there was a breeze. The men had to work harder than ever carrying the cattle back up the hill.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Bill solved that problem by inventing steers with very short legs on one side of their bodies. Even in a windstorm these cattle could stand securely on the sloop as long as they kept their short-legged sides uphill.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/nweOQ.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/7y4pu.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30270" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10717" RevisionGUID="f9d316a3-b51a-4c65-8b63-52e8d5e8b527" CreationDate="2023-05-31T18:14:47.450" UserId="10290" Comment="added 162 characters in body" Text="# Pecos Bill&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Pecos Bill is is legendary cowboy in the American West.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Pecos Bill (Steven Kellog)* is a wonderful children's illustrated book. (Kellog also wrote books of Paul Bunyan and Johnny Appleseed.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To avoid the problem of season cattle herding, Pecos Bill builds a mountain that is winter at the top and summer at the bottom.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Bill's plan worked fine except that Pinnacle Peak was so steep the steers fell right off whenever there was a breeze. The men had to work harder than ever carrying the cattle back up the hill.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Bill solved that problem by inventing steers with very short legs on one side of their bodies. Even in a windstorm these cattle could stand securely on the sloop as long as they kept their short-legged sides uphill.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/nweOQ.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/7y4pu.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30271" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5857" RevisionGUID="9f4c65e3-bb8c-4765-84e1-cdd0db85cda9" CreationDate="2023-06-02T09:04:55.637" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30280" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3114" RevisionGUID="81c83cf9-df6c-45f5-b2a0-b82947d59010" CreationDate="2023-06-08T10:01:50.320" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30282" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10720" RevisionGUID="fef3a60d-80eb-4901-bb31-1971897efa37" CreationDate="2023-06-08T21:14:22.977" UserId="10311" Text="Vampires of European and other mythologies often overlap in concept with modern ideas of witches and werewolves, however the ostensibly Romanian term [*Nosferatu*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosferatu_(word)) has cultural significance as a synonym with vampire pre-dating and popularised by the novel Dracula.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for words for vampires or analogous creatures in other languages, the following are mentioned in Spence's [An encyclopædia of occultism](https://openlibrary.org/books/OL22970475M/An_encyclop%C3%A6dia_of_occultism) (1920):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## South-East Asian&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Burma:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Swawm** : Burmese Vampires [...] Like the ancient Mexicans (*See* Ciupipiltin), the Burmans have a great dread of the ghosts of women who have died in childbed. The Kachins believe such women to turn into vampires (***swawmx***) who are accompanied by their children when these die with them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Kephu** : a Karen Vampire. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Malaysia:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Hantu Penyardin** : A Malay Vampire. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Polynesia:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Tii** : A Polynesian Vampire . &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## American&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mexico:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Writing upon the sorcerers of Mexico, Sahagun, an early Spanish priest, states that the ***naualli*** or magician among the Mexicans is one who enchants men and sucks the blood of infants during the night. This would seem as if the writer had confounded the sorcerer with the vampire, — a mistake occasionally made by con- tinental writers on magic. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  As has been seen, Sahagun confounds the Mexican necromancer with the vampire, and it is interesting to note that this folk-belief must have originated in America independently of any European connection. But we find another instance of what would seem something like vampirism in Mexico.  This is found in connection with the ***ciupipiltin*** or ghosts of women who have died in child- birth. These haunt the cross-roads, crying and wailing for the little ones they have left behind them. But as in many other countries, notably in Burma, they are malevolent— their evil tendencies probably being caused by&#xD;&#xA;jealousy of the happiness of the living.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Ciupipiltin** : Vampires in ancient Mexico.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Indo-european&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Greece:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Vampire is called ***Broucolack*** by the modern Hellenes, and appears to date from mediaeval times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Greece (q.v.) a vampire is known as a ***broncolaia*** or ***bourkabakos***, which has been identified with the Slavonic name for&#xD;&#xA;&quot; werewolf &quot; (q.v.), *vlkodlak*, or *vuhodlak*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;India:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  ... the **Rakshasas** were cloud-demons. They are described as cannibals, could take any form, and were constantly menacing the gods. They haunt cemeteries, disturb sacrifices, animate the dead, harry and afflict mankind in all sorts of ways. In fact they are almost an absolute parallel with the vampires of Slavonic countries; and this greatly assists the conclusions of Asikoff that the Slavonic vampires were originally cloud-spirits.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The nomadic peoples are also strong believers in sorcery, one of the most dreaded forms of which is the **Jigar Khor**, or liver-eater, [...] We also hear tales of witches taking out the entrails of people, sucking them, and then replacing them. All this undoubtedly illustrates, as in ancient France and Germany, and probably also in the Slavonic countries, the original combination of witch and vampire ; how, in fact, the two were one and the&#xD;&#xA;same. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;In India the arch-witch **Ralaratri**, or &quot; black night &quot; has the joined eyebrows of the Salvonic werewolf or vampire, large cheeks, widely-parted lips, projecting teeth, and is a veritable vampire. But she also possesses the powers of ordinary witchcraft, — second-sight, the making of philtres, the control of tempests, the evil eye, and so forth. Witches also take animal forms, especially those of tigers ; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Germany:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Animal transformation plays a considerable part in Teutonic magic and witchcraft. In early Germany the witch (***hexe***) seems to have been also a vampire. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30284" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10720" RevisionGUID="18f86458-ea85-4b2a-80ca-ad67652123ee" CreationDate="2023-06-08T21:37:35.827" UserId="10311" Comment="Remove non european names." Text="Vampires of European and other mythologies often overlap in concept with modern ideas of witches and werewolves, however the ostensibly Romanian term [*Nosferatu*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosferatu_(word)) has cultural significance as a synonym with vampire pre-dating and popularised by the novel Dracula.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for other languages, [most Slavic languages](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/%C7%ABpyr%D1%8C#Descendants) have a word cognate to *vampire* (e.g. Serbian вампир, Croatian vampir, Czech upír, Ukrainian упир), and most other european languages have either a loanword from one of these, or a loan of English &quot;vampire&quot; itself if more modern in adoption. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also the Albanian [*dhampir*](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dhampir#Albanian) (in addition to *vampir*) possibly named for *dham* (&quot;tooth&quot;). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Several languages have euphemisms meaning &quot;blood sucker&quot; e.g. German *Blutsauger*, Irish *súmaire*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Romanian also has *strigoi* meaning witch/vampire, from Latin *striga* of the same.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for words for vampires or analogous creatures in other languages, the following are mentioned in Spence's [An encyclopædia of occultism](https://openlibrary.org/books/OL22970475M/An_encyclop%C3%A6dia_of_occultism) (1920):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Greece:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Vampire is called ***Broucolack*** by the modern Hellenes, and appears to date from mediaeval times.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Greece (q.v.) a vampire is known as a ***broncolaia*** or ***bourkabakos***, which has been identified with the Slavonic name for&#xD;&#xA;&quot; werewolf &quot; (q.v.), *vlkodlak*, or *vuhodlak*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Germany:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Animal transformation plays a considerable part in Teutonic magic and witchcraft. In early Germany the witch (***hexe***) seems to have been also a vampire. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30285" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10720" RevisionGUID="57fadc84-b4a3-4811-ac1e-5b4ef287bb65" CreationDate="2023-06-08T21:47:33.973" UserId="10311" Comment="Remove non european names." Text="## *Vampires*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Vampires of European and other mythologies often overlap in concept with modern ideas of witches, zombies, and werewolves, however the ostensibly Romanian term [*Nosferatu*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosferatu_(word)) has cultural significance as a synonym with vampire pre-dating and popularised by the novel Dracula.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for other languages, [most Slavic languages](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/%C7%ABpyr%D1%8C#Descendants) have a word cognate to *vampire* (e.g. Serbian вампир, Croatian vampir, Czech upír, Ukrainian упир), and most other european languages have either a loanword from one of these, or a loan of English &quot;vampire&quot; itself if more modern in adoption. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also the Albanian [*dhampir*](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dhampir#Albanian) (in addition to *vampir*) possibly named for *dham* (&quot;tooth&quot;). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Several languages have euphemisms meaning &quot;blood sucker&quot; e.g. German *Blutsauger*, Irish *súmaire*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Analogous myths&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for words for vampires or analogous creatures in other languages, there is the flesh/liver consuming Greek [βρυκόλακας](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vrykolakas) (whose name derives from the Bulgarian name for &quot;werewolf&quot; *vǎrkolak*).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Albanian *lugat* refers to zombie like vampires.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Romanian also has *strigoi* meaning witch/vampire, from Latin *striga* of the same.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In early Germany the witch (***hexe***) seems to have been also a vampire. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [*An encyclopædia of occultism*](https://openlibrary.org/books/OL22970475M/An_encyclop%C3%A6dia_of_occultism) (1920)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30286" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10721" RevisionGUID="0dfbff48-1516-429a-a2dd-d79a7005cf02" CreationDate="2023-06-09T07:41:08.483" UserId="10313" Text="Like in Greek mythology (and Dectrip faith, do we have Redditors here?), the reigning god class is not the eldest. Unlike Greek mythology, where there is ample report on family feud, I merely know the [names][1]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For example, have Odin's brothers Vili and Ve ever been mentioned outside the cosmogony texts? (Except from boinking Odin's wife while he was away; my source isn't very trustworthy :-) Etymology-wise, I am immediately suspicious with a name like &quot;Vili&quot;, indeed it means &quot;will&quot;, hinting an anthropomorphism. [Primary sources mentioned][2] are a bit obscure.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_trees_of_the_Norse_gods&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vili_and_V%C3%A9" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30288" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10721" RevisionGUID="0dfbff48-1516-429a-a2dd-d79a7005cf02" CreationDate="2023-06-09T07:41:08.483" UserId="10313" Text="Aesir ancestors" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30289" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10721" RevisionGUID="0dfbff48-1516-429a-a2dd-d79a7005cf02" CreationDate="2023-06-09T07:41:08.483" UserId="10313" Text="|norse|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30290" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6480" RevisionGUID="33744a6a-b879-414f-801e-22aafc6170e1" CreationDate="2023-06-09T23:08:21.120" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30291" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10722" RevisionGUID="2f4ecd4d-47f7-407c-a3e8-ca0a817cd55b" CreationDate="2023-06-09T23:53:07.747" UserId="4152" Text="### Boink Brothers!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;\&#xD;&#xA;Loki mentions the boinking in [Lokasenna][1] (Loki's Wrangling).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;\&#xD;&#xA;Frigg spake:&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;25. &quot;Of the deeds ye two | of old have done&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Ye should make no speech among men;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Whate'er ye have done | in days gone by,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Old tales should ne'er be told.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Loki spake:&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;26. &quot;Be silent, Frigg! | thou art Fjorgyn's wife,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;But ever lustful in love;&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;For Vili and Ve, | thou wife of Vithrir,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Both in thy bosom have lain.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;\&#xD;&#xA;Though to be fair, I really wonder who did the boinking here --- Vili &amp; Ve or Frigg! (Of course, this is Loki talking...)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;\&#xD;&#xA;The two are mentioned again in [Gylfaginning][2] (the Beguiling of Gylfi).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;\&#xD;&#xA;VI. Then asked Gangleri:&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;Wherewithal was the cow nourished?&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And Hárr made answer:&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;She licked the ice-blocks, which were salty; and the first day that she licked the blocks, there came forth from the blocks in the evening a man's hair; the second day, a man's head; the third day the whole man was there. He is named Búri: he was fair of feature, great and mighty. He begat a son called Borr, who wedded the woman named Bestla, daughter of Bölthorn the giant; and they had three sons: one was Odin, the second Vili, the third Vé. And this is my belief, that he, Odin, with his brothers, must be ruler of heaven and earth; we hold that he must be so called; so is that man called whom we know to be mightiest and most worthy of honor, and ye do well to let him be so called.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;\&#xD;&#xA;Of the names of these gods, it is interesting to note that Odin's name originally had a W sound at the beginning, which was lost in Old Norse. We can still see it in English, for the cognate god name is Woden. The names go back to Primitive Germanic forms, Wôdanaz, indicating a kid of spiritual rage or inspiration. In English, we have the recollection of this sense in the word &quot;wood&quot; or &quot;wode&quot;, which means mad, furious, possessed, crazed. The word is related to Latin vates, who were seers, prophets, poets. Vili ultimately derives from wiljô, meaning &quot;will&quot;; Ve derives from wih, meaning some thing or place that is sacred. His name seems to be connected with the words witch and victim, both of which have at their root the concept of the sacred.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;\&#xD;&#xA;As to your last statement, I freely admit that the meanings underlying these gods' names smack of some kind of divinisation of some deep concept. Almost as if the ancient Germanics were groping, as were the Greeks, towards the Agnostos Theos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe10.htm&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/pre04.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30293" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10723" RevisionGUID="90f21e70-9622-4c5d-9f29-e5011d2431de" CreationDate="2023-06-10T02:07:08.023" UserId="10316" Text="In ancient Greece it was (incorrectly) believed that vision was the result of beams emitted directly from the eyes (as opposed to the reality that vision is perception of light that is reflected off the viewed object).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I wonder if this had anything to do with the notion that Medusa‘s eyes on a reflective surface would have different characteristics than when viewed directly?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30295" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10724" RevisionGUID="f34cb9ac-4c3e-4241-8cdc-33ec814a0290" CreationDate="2023-06-15T06:03:02.533" UserId="3530" Text="Homer's epic the Odyssey is mainly about the Greek hero Odysseus' adventures on his way home from the Trojan War, including raiding the Cicones at Ismaros, the lotus eaters, the Cyclops' cave, the Sirens, Scylla and Charybdis, visiting spirits in the Underworld, the Laestragonians, Circe, shipwreck, being detained by Calypso, meeting Nausicaa and her people the Phaeacians, returning to Ithaca in disguise, finding which of his slaves have remained loyal to him, the fight with the suitors, and in the early part of the poem, Odysseus' son Telemachus travelling to seek news of Odysseus. Do we have any evidence as to which of these incidents were invented by Homer when he composed the Odyssey and which were existing legends that he incorporated?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it likely Homer able to start with a nearly 'blank canvas' and invent whatever he liked, or would his audience already have preconceptions and expectations as to what the story of Odysseus afteŕ the Trojan War should include, that would have influenced Homer?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Given the vast number of references (even if sometimes contradictory) in ancient Greek mythology to the Trojan War I think we can assume that there were already legends and poems about it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By 'Homer' I mean the author or authors of the Odyssey. This question is not about whether the epics attributed to Homer were the work of a single author or multiple authors." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30297" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10724" RevisionGUID="f34cb9ac-4c3e-4241-8cdc-33ec814a0290" CreationDate="2023-06-15T06:03:02.533" UserId="3530" Text="Is there any evidence as to which incidents in the Odyssey were invented by Homer and which were existing legends (apart from the Trojan War)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30298" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10724" RevisionGUID="f34cb9ac-4c3e-4241-8cdc-33ec814a0290" CreationDate="2023-06-15T06:03:02.533" UserId="3530" Text="|greek|trojan-war|homer|odyssey|odysseus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30301" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1779" RevisionGUID="195373a5-dd69-4d8e-973d-65d7e76aae40" CreationDate="2023-06-16T19:47:31.783" UserId="-1" Comment="correct spelling + more characters for limit" Text="Ganymede's story is told in the *Iliad*, in the 8th century BC (as the [comment](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/7/did-zeus-have-any-male-lovers#comment8251_30) refers to):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...and godlike Ganymedes that was born the fairest of mortal men; wherefore the gods caught him up on high to be cupbearer to Zeus by reason of his beauty, that he might dwell with the immortals.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Homer, Illiad, book 20](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D20%3Acard%3D199)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ganymede being a romantic/sexual lover of Zeus isn't stated there, though (at least, not overtly).  You don't have to look too much further to find that, though.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From the 6th century BC, from Theognis:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The love of boys has given delight ever since Ganymede  &#xD;&#xA;    Was loved by Kronos' son himself, king of the immortals,  &#xD;&#xA;Who seized and brought him up to Olympos and made him  &#xD;&#xA;Divine, possessing as he did the lovely bloom of boyhood.  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;[Theognis, fragment](http://www.as.miami.edu/personal/corax/theognis.html), lines 1345 - 1348&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And from the 5th century BC, from Pindar:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...then it was that the god of the splendid trident seized you, his mind overcome with desire, and carried you away on his team of golden horses to the highest home of widely-honored Zeus, to which at a later time Ganymede came also, to perform the same service for Zeus.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Pindar, Olympian 1](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0162%3Abook%3DO.%3Apoem%3D1)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And in the 4th century BC, from Plato:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ...then the fountain of that stream which Zeus, when he was in love with Ganymede, called “desire” flows copiously upon the lover;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;[Plato, Phaedrus, pg 255](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0174%3Atext%3DPhaedrus%3Apage%3D255)&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Among others..." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30302" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1779" RevisionGUID="195373a5-dd69-4d8e-973d-65d7e76aae40" CreationDate="2023-06-16T19:47:31.783" Comment="Proposed by anonymous approved by 398, 5726 edit id of 1915" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30306" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7" RevisionGUID="d8d9d685-3fcb-45db-b183-d52476f1eb55" CreationDate="2023-06-18T00:07:54.443" UserId="398" Comment="deleted 98 characters in body" Text="Many of the Greek gods were bisexual. Did Zeus have any male lovers?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30311" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5813" RevisionGUID="61f0943c-fd04-4e59-ac54-451ce5144d78" CreationDate="2023-06-20T13:47:43.793" UserId="229" Comment="added 77 characters in body" Text="I'm afraid there probably isn't one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Growing up with some Native family myself, I gathered &quot;Happy Hunting Ground&quot; was not an actual native term they used, but rather one of those phrases white men use to make fun of them, like &quot;firewater&quot; and &quot;thunder-stick&quot;. That's the context I always heard it in.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there appears to be a [legit Wikipedia page][1] for it, so its gotta have been A Thing&lt;sup&gt;TM&lt;/sup&gt;, right? And that page mentions the Lakota by name. Those people are closely related to my own Osage, with very similar names for what are usually pretty much identical beliefs. That's significant, because there exists an Osage/English dictionary, created by one of the world's [first indigenous linguists][2] way back in the late 1800's. This was when the Osages still remembered their old beliefs, and that dictionary is chock full of religious and ceremonial terms. If it exists, it must be in there. I happen to have a copy, and....&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Short answer: that's not in there. Nothing remotely like it is in there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So I think, perhaps this is my first ever encounter with a large religious difference between Siouxan peoples? The [online Lakota dictionary][3] must have it...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nope. Nothing like that under &quot;happy&quot; or &quot;hunting.&quot; In fact, if you try looking up &quot;heaven&quot; there, you get the following:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mahpiya wokichunze &lt;sub&gt;n&lt;/sub&gt; heaven (Christian concept; coined by the missionaries)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other words, the Lakota didn't have anything like that. The above two words are actually the Lakota words for &quot;sky&quot; and &quot;kingdom&quot;, slammed together. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A bit more online ...er... hunting, netted me [this explanation][4] for the mystery:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Concerning beliefs regarding an afterlife among Plains Indians, Sioux&#xD;&#xA;&gt; physician Charles Eastman writes:  “The idea of a ‘happy&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hunting-ground’ is modern and probably borrowed, or invented by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; white man.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Charles Eastman][5] wasn't *just* a physician, but an acknowledged lecturing expert in Sioux history. Born in 1858, his maternal grandfather was a Santee Dakota chief, and his Dakota name was Ohíye S'a. We aren't going to get much closer to a primary source.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the &quot;Happy Hunting Ground&quot; is indeed a myth, but **its a white man's myth**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;OK then, you might ask, what **was** the native view of the afterlife?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Again, nothing's universal. However, the [Siouan people][6] largely shared an [animist][7] belief in a omnipresent spirit they all call something like &quot;[Wakonda][8]&quot;. This is often translated as (more literally) &quot;Great Mystery&quot; or (more commonly) &quot;Great Spirit&quot;. Europeans found it easiest to equate it to God (or The Holy Spirit), but the best modern analogy is probably to The Force, the Jedi religion from Star Wars. It is not personified in any way, has no gender, and it permeates everything and everyone. From this point of view, when you die, your spirit doesn't really *go* anywhere. It just becomes one with Wakonda. It might even be available for consultation from time to time (say if a Death Star needs blowing up or something).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I understand some unrelated tribes had similar beliefs, but this almost certainly wasn't universal of course.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_hunting_ground&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_La_Flesche&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.lakotadictionary.org/phpBB3/nldo.php&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://nativeamericannetroots.net/diary/1726&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Eastman&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siouan_languages&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.native-languages.org/morelegends/wakonda.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30312" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5813" RevisionGUID="7450ebd5-4d4a-4181-9f5d-17c931f3a9f9" CreationDate="2023-06-20T13:55:04.177" UserId="229" Comment="added 77 characters in body" Text="I'm afraid there probably isn't one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Growing up with some Native family myself, I gathered &quot;Happy Hunting Ground&quot; was not an actual native term they used, but rather one of those phrases white men use to make fun of them, like &quot;firewater&quot; and &quot;thunder-stick&quot;. That's the context I always heard it in.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there appears to be a [legit Wikipedia page][1] for it, so its gotta have been A Thing&lt;sup&gt;TM&lt;/sup&gt;, right? And that page mentions the Lakota by name. Those people are closely related to my own Osage, with very similar names for what are usually pretty much identical beliefs. That's significant, because there exists an Osage/English dictionary, created by one of the world's [first indigenous linguists][2] way back in the late 1800's. This was when the Osages still remembered their old beliefs, and that dictionary is chock full of religious and ceremonial terms. If it exists, it must be in there. I happen to have a copy, and....&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Short answer: that's not in there. Nothing remotely like it is in there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So I think, perhaps this is my first ever encounter with a large religious difference between Siouxan peoples? The [online Lakota dictionary][3] must have it...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nope. Nothing like that under &quot;happy&quot; or &quot;hunting.&quot; In fact, if you try looking up &quot;heaven&quot; there, you get the following:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mahpiya wokichunze &lt;sub&gt;n&lt;/sub&gt; heaven (Christian concept; coined by the missionaries)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other words, the Lakota didn't have anything like that. The above two words are actually the Lakota words for &quot;sky&quot; and &quot;kingdom&quot;, slammed together. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A bit more online ...er... hunting, netted me [this explanation][4] for the mystery:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Concerning beliefs regarding an afterlife among Plains Indians, Sioux&#xD;&#xA;&gt; physician Charles Eastman writes:  “The idea of a ‘happy&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hunting-ground’ is modern and probably borrowed, or invented by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; white man.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Charles Eastman][5] wasn't *just* a physician, but an acknowledged lecturing expert in Sioux history. Born in 1858, his maternal grandfather was a Santee Dakota chief, and his Dakota name was Ohíye S'a. We aren't going to get much closer to a primary source.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the &quot;Happy Hunting Ground&quot; is indeed a myth, but **its a white man's myth**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;OK then, you might ask, what **was** the native view of the afterlife?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Again, nothing's universal. However, the [Siouan people][6] largely shared an [animist][7] belief in a omnipresent spirit they all call something like &quot;[Wakonda][8]&quot;. This is often translated as (more literally) &quot;Great Mystery&quot; or (more commonly) &quot;Great Spirit&quot;. Europeans found it easiest to equate it to God (or The Holy Spirit), but the best modern analogy is probably to The Force, the Jedi religion from Star Wars. It is not personified in any way, has no gender, and it permeates everything and everyone. From this point of view, when you die, your spirit doesn't really *go* anywhere. It just becomes one with Wakonda. It might even be available for consultation from time to time (say if a Death Star needs blowing up or something).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I understand some unrelated tribes had similar beliefs, but this almost certainly wasn't universal of course. The Lakota, Commanche, and Apache languages are as different as Han Chinese, Turkish, and Benghali are in Asia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_hunting_ground&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_La_Flesche&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.lakotadictionary.org/phpBB3/nldo.php&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://nativeamericannetroots.net/diary/1726&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Eastman&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siouan_languages&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.native-languages.org/morelegends/wakonda.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30313" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5813" RevisionGUID="0db174b1-1de1-45c0-8448-a623b291145c" CreationDate="2023-06-20T14:07:34.350" UserId="229" Comment="added 39 characters in body" Text="I'm afraid there probably isn't one.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Growing up with some Native family myself, I gathered &quot;Happy Hunting Ground&quot; was not an actual native term they used, but rather one of those phrases white men use to make fun of them, like &quot;firewater&quot; and &quot;thunder-stick&quot;. That's the context I always heard it in.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there appears to be a [legit Wikipedia page][1] for it, so its gotta have been A Thing&lt;sup&gt;TM&lt;/sup&gt;, right? And that page mentions the Lakota by name. Those people are closely related to my own Osage, with very similar names for what are usually pretty much identical beliefs. That's significant, because there exists an Osage/English dictionary, created by one of the world's [first indigenous linguists][2] way back in the late 1800's. This was when the Osages still remembered their old beliefs, and that dictionary is chock full of religious and ceremonial terms. If it exists, it must be in there. I happen to have a copy, and....&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Short answer: that's not in there. Nothing remotely like it is in there.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So I think, perhaps this is my first ever encounter with a large religious difference between Siouxan peoples? The [online Lakota dictionary][3] must have it...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nope. Nothing like that under &quot;happy&quot; or &quot;hunting.&quot; In fact, if you try looking up &quot;heaven&quot; there, you get the following:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mahpiya wokichunze &lt;sub&gt;n&lt;/sub&gt; heaven (Christian concept; coined by the missionaries)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In other words, the Lakota didn't have anything like that. The above two words are actually the Lakota words for &quot;sky&quot; and &quot;kingdom&quot;, slammed together. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A bit more online ...er... hunting, netted me [this explanation][4] for the mystery:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Concerning beliefs regarding an afterlife among Plains Indians, Sioux&#xD;&#xA;&gt; physician Charles Eastman writes:  “The idea of a ‘happy&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hunting-ground’ is modern and probably borrowed, or invented by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; white man.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Charles Eastman][5] wasn't *just* a physician, but an acknowledged lecturing expert in Sioux history. Born in 1858, his maternal grandfather was a Santee Dakota chief, and his Dakota name was Ohíye S'a. We aren't going to get much closer to a primary source.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the &quot;Happy Hunting Ground&quot; is indeed a myth, but **its a white man's myth**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;OK then, you might ask, what **was** the native view of the afterlife?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Again, nothing's universal. However, the [Siouan people][6] largely shared an [animist][7] belief in a omnipresent spirit they all call something like &quot;[Wakonda][8]&quot;. This is often translated as (more literally) &quot;Great Mystery&quot; or (more commonly) &quot;Great Spirit&quot;. Europeans found it easiest to equate it to God (or The Holy Spirit), but the best modern analogy is probably to The Force, the Jedi religion from Star Wars. It is not personified in any way, has no gender, and it permeates everything and everyone. From this point of view, when you die, your spirit doesn't really *go* anywhere. It just becomes one with Wakonda. It might even be available for consultation from time to time (say if a Death Star needs blowing up or something).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I understand some unrelated tribes had similar beliefs, but this almost certainly wasn't universal of course. The Lakota, Commanche, and Apache languages (and thus the roots of their cultures) are as different as Han Chinese, Turkish, and Benghali are in Asia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_hunting_ground&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_La_Flesche&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.lakotadictionary.org/phpBB3/nldo.php&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://nativeamericannetroots.net/diary/1726&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Eastman&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siouan_languages&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.native-languages.org/morelegends/wakonda.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30314" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10727" RevisionGUID="bc528baf-2e2e-405c-a1bd-7ca1cf110a64" CreationDate="2023-06-20T14:19:26.983" UserId="10294" Text="In my interpretation, I think that the thunderbolts of Zeus are not the thunderbolts that we see in storms. And yes beam of light, and he held a composite arrow in flames that by the way looks like wheat. Well, let's face it, what divinity would be afraid of lightning? We myths hinted that this weapon it shook the earth, boiled the ocean and land, lit up the world, and wrought havoc worse than nuclear bombs..." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30316" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10727" RevisionGUID="ad0fb890-8d4a-41fd-b591-fd9613e9ccc9" CreationDate="2023-06-20T14:22:41.023" UserId="10294" Comment="added 309 characters in body" Text="In my interpretation, I think that the thunderbolts of Zeus are not the thunderbolts that we see in storms. And yes beam of light, and he held a composite arrow in flames that by the way looks like wheat. Well, let's face it, what divinity would be afraid of lightning? We myths hinted that this weapon it shook the earth, boiled the ocean and land, lit up the world or universe, and wrought havoc worse than nuclear bombs... And it seems that he had several inside that weapon, because he needed to recover with the help of his sacred eagle that he brought to him. So I think lightning is the weapon, lightning is the beam of light that the weapon (the lightning) releases and thunder is those rays that we see in storms." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30317" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10727" RevisionGUID="7fb7f276-8fce-4350-a2e3-c5c6a09be88e" CreationDate="2023-06-20T14:23:54.940" UserId="10294" Comment="deleted 297 characters in body" Text="In my interpretation, I think that the thunderbolts of Zeus are not the thunderbolts that we see in storms. And yes beam of light, and he held a composite arrow in flames that by the way looks like wheat. Well, let's face it, what divinity would be afraid of lightning? We myths hinted that this weapon it shook the earth, boiled the ocean and land, lit up the world or universe, and wrought havoc worse than nuclear bombs..." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30322" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5709" RevisionGUID="918bffb4-763b-43e3-8d90-092e6c2d4d40" CreationDate="2023-06-23T00:06:50.910" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30323" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="10379" RevisionGUID="a622fe0e-9e8e-4503-af61-bb7d97c6b287" CreationDate="2023-06-23T02:00:35.083" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30325" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10729" RevisionGUID="54f60a65-9d54-4ff4-b898-1ef3dd989ca7" CreationDate="2023-06-25T09:06:03.067" UserId="10347" Text="Basically, there was a Victorian mania for identifying mythological figures as sun gods, they massively overdid it, and there has been a reaction against that. Scholars are, on the whole, much more cautious in these things than they used to be.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We no longer take such a systematic and compartmentalised approach to the nature and functions of deities. Gods have a range of associations, and there's plenty of ambiguity and overlap. For example, in Greek mythology, Apollo has a lot of solar associations, but he's also associated with music, art and healing - Caesar, in the passage you quote, is not thinking of Apollo as a sun-god, but as the god who &quot;drives away diseases&quot; - and there are other gods with solar associations, including Helios, the personification of the sun. In any case, the god Caesar is thought to be identifing with Lugus is not Apollo but Mercury. Bear in mind that the Norse god identified with Mercury is Odin, probably on the basis that he was the guide of the dead. The psychopomp role is often associated with the setting sun, but Odin is not thought of as a sun-god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The other thing to bear in mind is the nature of the evidence. We have to reconstruct what the pre-Christian Irish thought of their gods through texts written by Christians, usually some centuries after those gods were no longer worshipped. Oral tradition is not very stable, and a lot changes as stories are passed down. The Death of the Sons of Tuireann, which you quote two translations of, is very late, dating to the early modern period, 16th-17th century, so it's not a very reliable guide to how the pre-Christian Irish thought of their gods." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30327" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10729" RevisionGUID="fcc73748-7cb7-495e-a065-f219a83112a2" CreationDate="2023-06-25T09:09:50.387" UserId="10347" Comment="added 49 characters in body" Text="Basically, there was a Victorian mania for identifying mythological figures as sun gods, they massively overdid it, and there has been a reaction against that. Scholars are, on the whole, much more cautious in these things than they used to be.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We no longer take such a systematic and compartmentalised approach to the nature and functions of deities. Gods have a range of associations, and there's plenty of ambiguity and overlap. For example, in Greek mythology, Apollo has a lot of solar associations, but he's also associated with music, art and healing - Caesar, in the passage you quote, is not thinking of the god he identifies with Apollo as a sun-god, but as the god who &quot;drives away diseases&quot; - and there are other gods with solar associations, including Helios, the personification of the sun. In any case, the god Caesar is thought to be identifing with Lugus is not Apollo but Mercury. Bear in mind that the Norse god identified with Mercury is Odin, probably on the basis that he was the guide of the dead. The psychopomp role is often associated with the setting sun, but Mercury and Odin are not generally thought of as sun-gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The other thing to bear in mind is the nature of the evidence. We have to reconstruct what the pre-Christian Irish thought of their gods through texts written by Christians, usually some centuries after those gods were no longer worshipped. Oral tradition is not very stable, and a lot changes as stories are passed down. The Death of the Sons of Tuireann, which you quote two translations of, is very late, dating to the early modern period, 16th-17th century, so it's not a very reliable guide to how the pre-Christian Irish thought of their gods." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30328" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10730" RevisionGUID="17fc23b9-e877-46f0-b028-7fb716994758" CreationDate="2023-06-25T22:03:09.067" UserId="398" Text="The short answer is that Homer is clearly drawing on existing fables, stories, myths, and even epics to create his. This much is by necessity. The problem is that the details are and will likely always be unclear.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'll try to keep this brief, but each point can be its own question. Your question is so broad that to properly answer it takes many volumes, and it's still being debated and discussed, but here are the highlights.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##### Alternate traditions abound&#xD;&#xA;    &#xD;&#xA;I think this is the clearest way to answer your question: not long after Homer, we have numerous stories that directly conflict with the *Iliad*. The most obvious differences are in names. In the larger Greek tradition, the mother of Oedipus was Jocasta, but in Homer her name is Epicasta.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One huge difference comes with the birth of Aphrodite. In Hesiod's *Theogony*, who was writing but a generation after Homer, the birth of Aphrodite was a primeval affair; she rose from the foam that was made when Uranus' testicles fell into the sea after Cronus cut them off. This is likely a nod to one of her titles: Aphrodite Urania.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, in the *Iliad* she is clearly pictured as the daughter of Zeus, who mentions that her mother is Dione. There is no room for Uranus and a sea-foam birth here. Hesiod, if he knows Homer at all, gets this myth from elsewhere (if he didn't invent it).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jonathan Burgess in his contribution to the Oxford Classical Dictionary includes another variation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; However, Herodotus (2.117) states that [in the *Cypria*] Paris and Helen sailed to Troy quickly, whereas Proclus indicates that they were blown off course by a storm to Sidon, which Paris sacked. For Herodotus, this is reason to doubt that Homer composed the Cypria, since Paris is said to have been at Sidon on his way home at Iliad 6.289–292. It seems that either Herodotus or Proclus is mistaken, unless the Cypria existed in variant forms.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herodotus of course was reading the Cypria hundreds of years before Proclus and a couple hundred years before the Alexandrian scholars would begin the harmonization of the epic cycle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##### Homer is an oral poet&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This point is really important to keep in mind. Homer wasn't &quot;writing&quot; the *Iliad* and the *Odyssey*, but composing it orally. A few scholars suggest that Homer might have had access to writing, and maybe was literate, but even if that's the case, from research on oral tradition, it's clear that he composed this in an oral context first. This is why you get stock phrases like &quot;rosy-fingered dawn&quot; that peppers narrative transitions. You don't get these phrases in the *Argonautica* or *Aeneid*, whose authors were clearly literate and were clearly written down first.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Part of the oral epic poet, though, is innovation on the fly with the stock stories. Their methods were laid out in the research of Parry and Lord, who recorded Bosnian poets do the same.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##### It's too important to be made up whole cloth by one poet&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Trojan War is one of those fundamental stories that show up all over art and literature. It was so important that it colored their interactions with the Persians in the fifth century, festivals were made to recite it in the sixth century, and references outside Homer show up in the very next oldest poets in Greek literature (Hesiod, Hymn to Aphrodite, Arctinus, Archilochus, Sappho, Alcaeus, Stesichorus, etc.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There really just isn't the time for it to have grown in importance so that the story would be known all over Greece if it were made up by a single person. Even if we assume he was a traveling bard, orally composing two giant epics from scratch without any starting point and then less than a generation later everyone writing as if the story is common knowledge without widespread adoption of writing is implausible and improbable.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, yes, I'd say there's evidence that Homer didn't make it up.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, which parts were taken from pre-existing traditions, which parts were adapted from other stories, which parts he invented, and which parts were tacked on later is all still up for debate.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Parts of this are taken from an article I wrote on Homer and oral tradition that isn't online yet.]" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30330" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10730" RevisionGUID="82db180f-1e72-4e7d-a98c-29fc52cc12f3" CreationDate="2023-06-26T00:35:42.603" UserId="398" Comment="deleted 218 characters in body" Text="The short answer is that Homer is clearly drawing on existing fables, stories, myths, and even epics to create his. This much is by necessity. The problem is that the details are and will likely always be unclear.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##### Alternate traditions abound&#xD;&#xA;    &#xD;&#xA;I think this is the clearest way to answer your question: not long after Homer, we have numerous stories that directly conflict with the *Iliad*. The most obvious differences are in names. In the larger Greek tradition, the mother of Oedipus was Jocasta, but in Homer her name is Epicasta.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One huge difference comes with the birth of Aphrodite. In Hesiod's *Theogony*, who was writing but a generation after Homer, the birth of Aphrodite was a primeval affair; she rose from the foam that was made when Uranus' testicles fell into the sea after Cronus cut them off. This is likely a nod to one of her titles: Aphrodite Urania.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, in the *Iliad* she is clearly pictured as the daughter of Zeus, who mentions that her mother is Dione. There is no room for Uranus and a sea-foam birth here. Hesiod, if he knows Homer at all, gets this myth from elsewhere (if he didn't invent it).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jonathan Burgess in his contribution to the Oxford Classical Dictionary includes another variation:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; However, Herodotus (2.117) states that [in the *Cypria*] Paris and Helen sailed to Troy quickly, whereas Proclus indicates that they were blown off course by a storm to Sidon, which Paris sacked. For Herodotus, this is reason to doubt that Homer composed the Cypria, since Paris is said to have been at Sidon on his way home at Iliad 6.289–292. It seems that either Herodotus or Proclus is mistaken, unless the Cypria existed in variant forms.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herodotus of course was reading the Cypria hundreds of years before Proclus and a couple hundred years before the Alexandrian scholars would begin the harmonization of the epic cycle.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##### Homer is an oral poet&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This point is really important to keep in mind. Homer wasn't &quot;writing&quot; the *Iliad* and the *Odyssey*, but composing it orally. A few scholars suggest that Homer might have had access to writing, and maybe was literate, but even if that's the case, from research on oral tradition, it's clear that he composed this in an oral context first. This is why you get stock phrases like &quot;rosy-fingered dawn&quot; that peppers narrative transitions. You don't get these phrases in the *Argonautica* or *Aeneid*, whose authors were clearly literate and were clearly written down first.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Part of the oral epic poet, though, is innovation on the fly with the stock stories. Their methods were laid out in the research of Parry and Lord, who recorded Bosnian poets do the same.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;##### It's too important to be made up whole cloth by one poet&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Trojan War is one of those fundamental stories that show up all over art and literature. It was so important that it colored their interactions with the Persians in the fifth century, festivals were made to recite it in the sixth century, and references outside Homer show up in the very next oldest poets in Greek literature (Hesiod, Hymn to Aphrodite, Arctinus, Archilochus, Sappho, Alcaeus, Stesichorus, etc.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There really just isn't the time for it to have grown in importance so that the story would be known all over Greece if it were made up by a single person. Even if we assume he was a traveling bard, orally composing two giant epics from scratch without any starting point and then less than a generation later everyone writing as if the story is common knowledge without widespread adoption of writing is implausible and improbable.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, yes, I'd say there's evidence that Homer didn't make it up.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, which parts were taken from pre-existing traditions, which parts were adapted from other stories, which parts he invented, and which parts were tacked on later is all still up for debate.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Parts of this are taken from an article I wrote on Homer and oral tradition that isn't online yet.]" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30331" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10731" RevisionGUID="058cfb06-e3f1-4355-861d-0b45720ce2c2" CreationDate="2023-06-26T19:52:16.657" UserId="6161" Text="I am looking for a variety of answers. Some mythological figures, such as the Watchers in 1 Enoch, are entities that chose to descend to the mortal world to copulate with humans and teach humans (in the ways of magic, war, etc.). What other deities or non-human beings like the Watchers accompany humanity as observers or teachers?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Additionally, what humans (or other creatures), such as Tithonus in Greek mythology, have gained immortality and thus are bound to remain alongside humans indefinitely?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am also interested in those aforementioned beings present in works of epic poetry.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thank you for any insight." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30333" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10731" RevisionGUID="058cfb06-e3f1-4355-861d-0b45720ce2c2" CreationDate="2023-06-26T19:52:16.657" UserId="6161" Text="What mythological figures/creatures are defined as immortal observers of humanity?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30334" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10731" RevisionGUID="058cfb06-e3f1-4355-861d-0b45720ce2c2" CreationDate="2023-06-26T19:52:16.657" UserId="6161" Text="|comparative|immortality|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30335" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10732" RevisionGUID="22914535-8886-405f-a5f4-74e2df4dc42d" CreationDate="2023-06-26T20:49:10.270" UserId="10350" Text="I saw some Chinese series where were immortal people. Question is if someone knows the path how to be immortal in nowadays. Because the 1000 years Kingdom is closer and closer and it seems there is a possibility to reach immortality in nowadays too. From my point of view what I've got it is not a &quot;real&quot; immortality, not eternal, just for couple of 100s years, &quot;only&quot; maybe to 500 or 1000. Of course I understand it is related to 3 Nadis (Ida, Pingala, Sushumna) and there are some Chinese legends about it but I did not imagine it would be possible in Western world until not happened that I've got 3... Sorry, I cannot write it down publicly but maybe someone has similar or better information and understanding of this. I did not imagine it would be possible before 1000 years Kingdom...  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30337" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10732" RevisionGUID="22914535-8886-405f-a5f4-74e2df4dc42d" CreationDate="2023-06-26T20:49:10.270" UserId="10350" Text="How to become immortal in Western world in compare to Chinese legends and western mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30338" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10732" RevisionGUID="22914535-8886-405f-a5f4-74e2df4dc42d" CreationDate="2023-06-26T20:49:10.270" UserId="10350" Text="|greek|mythohistory|chinese|immortality|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30339" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10732" RevisionGUID="4cf8aa54-ea2b-4118-a081-640708dec260" CreationDate="2023-06-26T20:50:29.180" UserId="10350" Comment="added 9 characters in body" Text="I saw some Chinese series where were immortal people. Question is if someone knows the path how to be immortal in nowadays. Because the 1000 years Kingdom is closer and closer and it seems there is a possibility to reach immortality in nowadays too. From my point of view what I've got it is not a &quot;real&quot; immortality, not eternal, just for couple of 100s years, &quot;only&quot; maybe to 500 or 1000. Of course I understand it is related to 3 Nadis (Ida, Pingala, Sushumna) and there are some Chinese legends about it but I did not imagine it would be possible in Western world until not happened that I've got 3... Sorry, I cannot write it down publicly but maybe someone has similar or better information and understanding of this. I could not imagine sooner it would be possible before 1000 years Kingdom...  " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30340" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10733" RevisionGUID="ecbcc79d-d7c0-4046-a77c-b4025e9df8cb" CreationDate="2023-06-27T01:16:45.677" UserId="6920" Text="In Greco-Roman mythos, the way to become immortal was to eat [ambrosia][1], the food of the gods.  Alas, the only real way for humans to obtain it was to undergo apotheosis and become a god.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Norse mythos, the way is to eat the apples of [Idun][2].  This appears not to be feasible for humans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Christian times, the chief belief was in alchemy.  The [Philosopher's Stone][3] could be used to make an elixir of immortality, as well as turn ordinary metals into gold (which does not tarnish, rust, or corrode, and so is immortal).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrosia&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%C3%B0unn&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosopher%27s_stone" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30342" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="10732" RevisionGUID="21287848-eca4-48c4-820a-e0220449b8ce" CreationDate="2023-06-27T07:42:42.020" UserId="53" Comment="101" Text="{&quot;OriginalQuestionIds&quot;:[2022],&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="30343" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10734" RevisionGUID="9c798873-79f7-4d80-bda7-eab1f42847a7" CreationDate="2023-06-27T21:54:39.547" UserId="10347" Text="I think Macha's curse was an ad-hoc explanation, and not a very well thought through one, for a story that had got out of hand.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story probably started out much shorter. Ailill and Medb invade Ulster, Cú Chulainn holds them up by challenging them to single combat, and buys time for Conchobar to raise his army. The story then enters oral culture, and storytellers invent more and more combats for Cú Chulainn to fight. By the time anyone starts trying to put together a complete version of the story, there are so many combats that an explanation is needed for why it takes Conchobar so long to raise his army. A mysterious debility is invented, and the story of Macha's curse is invented to explain that.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there's one thing that gives it away. As soon as he discovers the invaders have crossed the border, Cú Chulainn sends his father, Sualtam, to Emain Macha to warn Conchobar. He doesn't arrive until after the whole series of single combats, months later. The story of Macha's curse doesn't explain that. The obvious conclusion is, the single combats didn't originally go on that long." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30345" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2468" RevisionGUID="46c70677-bba1-4bcb-8277-bb0bad08dfd1" CreationDate="2023-06-28T09:41:29.777" UserId="3530" Comment="A few clarifications and further thoughts, including to correct statement Cicones mentioned once in Iliad. Actually twice. &amp; comment briefly on how this incident is often now passed over in favour of the adventures that follow" Text="Open question for thoughts and explanations re Odysseus’ raid on the Cicones (also called Kikonians) while on his way home from the Trojan War, on any of my questions below and/or other thoughts of your own.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Homer’s [Odyssey Book 9][1], Odysseus tells his Phaeacian hosts of his adventures while returning victorious from Troy, beginning with how, leading his men home in 12 ships (I have added 3 explanatory notes I have researched):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; “From Ilium [Troy] storms blew me to the Cicones*, to Ismaros. There, I sacked* the town and put the men to the sword. And we took the wives* and much loot out of the town to divide among us, and I did my best to see that every man received his proper share.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Notes:&#xD;&#xA;The “Cicones” are a people of that region mentioned twice in Homer’s Iliad as allies of Troy, including in the catalogue of ships in Iliad Book 2 as sending warriors to reinforce the Trojans. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“Sacked” - Ancient Greek ‘[pertho][3]’;  to devastate, ruin, sack; used in relation to a conquered town in those days it would generally be taken to include plundering, killing the men and enslaving the women. For the losing side, it was total catastrophe.  [Note: Odysseus also uses &quot;[olesa][4]&quot; to describe what he did to the Ciconian men, which means to destroy.]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“Wives” Greek ‘[alochous][5]’, from words for lying down together; it may mean ‘wives’, but can mean or include concubines &amp; mistresses. This was a normal and acceptable word to use for female partners, but the suggestion of sleeping together could also, frankly, be a hint at what the Greeks want them for.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odysseus adds that he thought it best to leave quickly but his men insisted on staying to feast on captured wine, cattle and sheep on the beach. They were still there the next day when more Cicones arrived from inland, summoned by fugitives from Odysseus’ raid who ran to them and ‘made a great cry’. These new Cicones were “better men, more numerous and more skilled in war”. They gave battle. The Greeks put up a long fight but lost over 70 men and had to flee to their ships. After commemorating their dead, they sailed away unpursued.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This raid is referred to 3 further times in the Odyssey. In Book 9, at lines [164-168][6] Odysseus and his men enjoy wine captured  in the raid. At [197-210][7] he says that in the raid out of respect for the god, he protected Maron, a priest of Apollo living near the town, and Maron’s family, from harm. In return, Maron gave Odysseus fine gifts of gold, silver and strong wine. The wine is useful in the story of the Cyclops. In [Book 23 lines 310-311][8] when Odysseus is finally home he tells his wife Penelope of his many adventures, including laying waste the Cicones, so he presumably does not expect her to disapprove of his raid.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any thoughts on this, on any point(s) below or anything else that occurs to you? (“That’s just how it was in those days” may be a valid answer to some questions, but please don’t assume it without some evidence or reasoning!)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Why does Homer include this incident? Does it add anything to the story? (Most modern readers prefer the more fantastical magic and monsters episodes that follow with the Cyclops, Circe, Sylla and Charybdis etc. and many modern retellings downplay or omit the raid on the Cicones.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. How did Odysseus conquer Ismaros and its men so easily? He does not mention losing a single man doing so, but he does tell us when he loses men in the battle the next day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. Did Odysseus sack Ismaros because of the Trojan War, or was it normal and OK to do this to any foreign town, given the opportunity? The Greeks sacked other Trojan allies’ towns in the War, gaining plunder and slaves. However, there was then a military need to eliminate enemy allies and capture supplies. There seems no need to attack Ismaros. The Trojan War is already won, Troy destroyed and Odysseus and his men already have plunder from Troy and are supposedly tired of war and eager for home.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. a) The one reference to the women of Ismaros in the passage above: “We took the wives and much loot out of the town to divide among us” is their only mention in the Odyssey.  Do we assume hundreds (?) of these unfortunate Ciconian “wives” (actually now widows) are present as slaves, presumably servants and concubines, on Odysseus’ ships in the later adventures until the ships are lost, but are not considered worth mentioning?  If not, what happened to them?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;b) Ditto that in the Sack of Troy, the Greeks/ Achaeans are supposed to have enslaved Trojan women in large numbers as booty of war, yet there is no mention anywhere in the Odyssey of such women being on Odysseus’ ships? Obviously by our values their enslavement would be totally wrong, but would their lives thereafter and relations with their Greek captors have been uniformly terrible, or could they have adapted?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;c) If captured Trojan or Ciconian slaves and women are on board, presumably they die along with the crews when the ships are lost, but again their fate is not important enough to mention?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;5. Thoughts about the position of Maron and his wife, giving gifts to Odysseus even as he and his warriors kill or carry off into slavery all their neighbours?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D1&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D2%3Acard%3D819&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29%2Fpraqon&amp;la=greek&amp;can=e%29%2Fpraqon0&amp;prior=po/lin&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0135:book=9:card=1&amp;i=1&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=w%29%2Flesa&amp;la=greek&amp;can=w%29%2Flesa0&amp;prior=e)/praqon&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0135:book=9:card=1&amp;i=1&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=a%29lo%2Fxous&amp;la=greek&amp;can=a%29lo%2Fxous0&amp;prior=d%27&amp;d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0135:book=9:card=1&amp;i=1&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D161&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D9%3Acard%3D193&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0136%3Abook%3D23%3Acard%3D310" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30346" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10735" RevisionGUID="7dbb25ff-3df3-4b4e-a8cd-f86a8135af66" CreationDate="2023-06-29T18:00:15.240" UserId="10148" Text="About the part of watching the humanity,in Greek mythology, there are the daimones, described by Hesiod as spirits placed by Zeus to watch over mortals, observing their acts and judgments, the daimones themselves were originally the first generation of mortal men, who lived in the golden age, and were transformed into daimones after their deaths&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These passages are taken from the Theoi website:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod, Works &amp; Days 109 ff (trans. Evelyn-White) (Greek epic C8th or C7th B.C.) :&#xD;&#xA;&quot;First of all the deathless gods who dwell on Olympos made a Golden (khryseoi) Race of mortal men who lived in the time of Kronos (Cronus) when he was reigning in heaven. And they lived like gods without sorrow of heart, remote and free from toil and grief: miserable age rested not on them; but with legs and arms never failing they made merry with feasting beyond the reach of all evils. When they died, it was as though they were overcome with sleep, and they had all good things; for the fruitful earth unforced bare them fruit abundantly and without stint. They dwelt in ease and peace upon their lands with many good things, rich in flocks and loved by the blessed gods. But after earth had covered this generation--they are called Pure Spirits (daimones hagnoi) dwelling on the earth (epikhthonioi), and are kindly, delivering from harm, and guardians of mortal men; for they roam everywhere over the earth, clothed in mist and keep watch on judgements and cruel deeds, givers of wealth [i.e. agricultural bounty]; for this royal right also they received.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod, Works &amp; Days 238 ff :&#xD;&#xA;&quot;For those who practise violence and cruel deeds far-seeing Zeus, the son of Kronos (Cronus), ordains a punishment. Often even a whole city suffers for a bad man who sins and devises presumptuous deeds, and [Zeus] the son of Kronos lays great trouble upon the people, famine and plague together, so that the men perish away, and their women do not bear children, and their houses become few, through the contriving of Zeus Olympios (Olympian). And again, at another time, the son of Kronos either destroys their wide army, or their walls, or else makes an end of their ships on the sea. You princes, mark well this punishment you also; for the deathless gods are near among men and mark all those who oppress their fellows with crooked judgements, and reck not the anger of the gods. For upon the bounteous earth Zeus has thrice ten thousand Spirits (daimones), Watchers of mortal men, and these keep watch on judgements and deeds of wrong as they roam, clothed in mist, all over the earth.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the part of teaching humans, Prometheus was responsible for giving them the fire, and other gods are also described as teaching certain practices, Hephaestus and Athena are described as having taught humans how to build houses, as well as smithing and weaving, while Demeter is regarded as the one who taught agriculture to mortals, among others.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30349" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10736" RevisionGUID="b9493b15-b395-4f33-acca-c301d1a31ec6" CreationDate="2023-07-01T17:21:30.393" UserId="10148" Text="In Hesiod's Theogony, he dedicates a part to talking about Hecate's birth and the powers she possesses:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And she conceived and bare Hecate whom Zeus the son of Cronos honoured above all. He gave her splendid gifts, to have a share of the earth and the unfruitful sea. She received honour also in starry heaven, and is honoured exceedingly by the deathless gods. For to this day, whenever any one of men on earth offers rich sacrifices and prays for favour according to custom, he calls upon Hecate. Great honour comes full easily to him whose prayers the goddess receives favourably, and she bestows wealth upon him; for the power surely is with her. For as many as were born of Earth and Ocean amongst all these she has her due portion. The son of Cronos did her no wrong nor took anything away of all that was her portion among the former Titan gods: but she holds, as the division was at the first from the beginning, privilege both in earth, and in heaven, and in sea. Also, because she is an only child, the goddess receives not less honour, but much more still, for Zeus honours her. Whom she will she greatly aids and advances: she sits by worshipful kings in judgement, and in the assembly whom she will is distinguished among the people. And when men arm themselves for the battle that destroys men, then the goddess is at hand to give victory and grant glory readily to whom she will. Good is she also when men contend at the games, for there too the goddess is with them and profits them: and he who by might and strength gets the victory wins the rich prize easily with joy, and brings glory to his parents. And she is good to stand by horsemen, whom she will: and to those whose business is in the grey discomfortable sea, and who pray to Hecate and the loud-crashing Earth-Shaker, easily the glorious goddess gives great catch, and easily she takes it away as soon as seen, if so she will. She is good in the byre with Hermes to increase the stock. The droves of kine and wide herds of goats and flocks of fleecy sheep, if she will, she increases from a few, or makes many to be less. So, then, albeit her mother's only child, she is honoured amongst all the deathless gods. And the son of Cronos made her a nurse of the young who after that day saw with their eyes the light of all-seeing Dawn. So from the beginning she is a nurse of the young, and these are her honours.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The hymn is interesting because it mentions that Hecate has powers over Heaven, Earth and Sea, the three regions of the world, and that she is the goddess most honored by Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However what I found curious is the fact that Hesiod twice mentions the fact that Hecate is an only child, and says that she is honored despite that, as if it were a disadvantage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact before he mentions the birth of Hecate, Hesiod listed all the other children of the titans, except the children of Cronus, with Perses and Asteria being the only couple to have only a single children , which seems to make the case of Hecate quite unique among her relatives.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On theoi's page I saw this theory : Van Lennep explains that Hecate, having no brothers to support her claim, might have been slighted.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do you think it could have been because of that?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30351" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10736" RevisionGUID="b9493b15-b395-4f33-acca-c301d1a31ec6" CreationDate="2023-07-01T17:21:30.393" UserId="10148" Text="Why does Hesiod emphasize the fact that Hecate is the only child of her parents?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30352" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10736" RevisionGUID="b9493b15-b395-4f33-acca-c301d1a31ec6" CreationDate="2023-07-01T17:21:30.393" UserId="10148" Text="|greek|zeus|interpretation|goddesses|hesiod|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30353" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10736" RevisionGUID="42d30f83-fe1c-4355-bfa4-0a3999e6ad30" CreationDate="2023-07-02T12:51:53.537" UserId="7106" Comment="this is a quote" Text="In Hesiod's Theogony, he dedicates a part to talking about Hecate's birth and the powers she possesses:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And she conceived and bare Hecate whom Zeus the son of Cronos honoured&#xD;&#xA;&gt; above all. He gave her splendid gifts, to have a share of the earth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and the unfruitful sea. She received honour also in starry heaven, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is honoured exceedingly by the deathless gods. For to this day,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whenever any one of men on earth offers rich sacrifices and prays for&#xD;&#xA;&gt; favour according to custom, he calls upon Hecate. Great honour comes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; full easily to him whose prayers the goddess receives favourably, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; she bestows wealth upon him; for the power surely is with her. For as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; many as were born of Earth and Ocean amongst all these she has her due&#xD;&#xA;&gt; portion. The son of Cronos did her no wrong nor took anything away of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; all that was her portion among the former Titan gods: but she holds,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as the division was at the first from the beginning, privilege both in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; earth, and in heaven, and in sea. Also, because she is an only child,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the goddess receives not less honour, but much more still, for Zeus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; honours her. Whom she will she greatly aids and advances: she sits by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; worshipful kings in judgement, and in the assembly whom she will is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; distinguished among the people. And when men arm themselves for the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; battle that destroys men, then the goddess is at hand to give victory&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and grant glory readily to whom she will. Good is she also when men&#xD;&#xA;&gt; contend at the games, for there too the goddess is with them and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; profits them: and he who by might and strength gets the victory wins&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the rich prize easily with joy, and brings glory to his parents. And&#xD;&#xA;&gt; she is good to stand by horsemen, whom she will: and to those whose&#xD;&#xA;&gt; business is in the grey discomfortable sea, and who pray to Hecate and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the loud-crashing Earth-Shaker, easily the glorious goddess gives&#xD;&#xA;&gt; great catch, and easily she takes it away as soon as seen, if so she&#xD;&#xA;&gt; will. She is good in the byre with Hermes to increase the stock. The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; droves of kine and wide herds of goats and flocks of fleecy sheep, if&#xD;&#xA;&gt; she will, she increases from a few, or makes many to be less. So,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; then, albeit her mother's only child, she is honoured amongst all the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; deathless gods. And the son of Cronos made her a nurse of the young&#xD;&#xA;&gt; who after that day saw with their eyes the light of all-seeing Dawn.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; So from the beginning she is a nurse of the young, and these are her&#xD;&#xA;&gt; honours.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The hymn is interesting because it mentions that Hecate has powers over Heaven, Earth and Sea, the three regions of the world, and that she is the goddess most honored by Zeus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However what I found curious is the fact that Hesiod twice mentions the fact that Hecate is an only child, and says that she is honored despite that, as if it were a disadvantage.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In fact before he mentions the birth of Hecate, Hesiod listed all the other children of the titans, except the children of Cronus, with Perses and Asteria being the only couple to have only a single children , which seems to make the case of Hecate quite unique among her relatives.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On theoi's page I saw this theory : Van Lennep explains that Hecate, having no brothers to support her claim, might have been slighted.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do you think it could have been because of that?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30354" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="10736" RevisionGUID="42d30f83-fe1c-4355-bfa4-0a3999e6ad30" CreationDate="2023-07-02T12:51:53.537" Comment="Proposed by 7106 approved by 398, 2682 edit id of 1927" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30355" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10737" RevisionGUID="23b4e731-1597-46aa-8cb3-b33078e3e0ba" CreationDate="2023-07-02T14:24:04.423" UserId="10370" Text="There is also a story that Loki ate the remains of a woman's heart that he found  in the ashes of a wood fire. There is good reason to think that this heart belonged to the witch Gullveig who was slain and burnt by the Aesir. In Norse belief people who eat hearts then become like the beings they belong to: one warrior who ate a wolf's heart becomes dangerous and wild, a seeress eats animal's hearts to gain their powers. Loki's consumption of the woman's heart may well have transformed him into a woman. His subsequent winters underground as a milkmaid resulted in him bearing witches/ogresses rather than his offspring with Angrboda. The texts are clear on this. More interesting is how Odin knows about Loki's underground sojourn. Especially when there is a Norse myth about Odin liberating cattle from under the earth that is also lacking in further detail. Did Odin acquire them from a certain subterranean milkmaid? And by what means did he go about this exactly?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30357" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10735" RevisionGUID="b8997f71-8e7d-4629-9fe4-1870b584f96f" CreationDate="2023-07-02T15:18:25.160" UserId="7106" Comment="this are quotes" Text="About the part of watching the humanity,in Greek mythology, there are the daimones, described by Hesiod as spirits placed by Zeus to watch over mortals, observing their acts and judgments, the daimones themselves were originally the first generation of mortal men, who lived in the golden age, and were transformed into daimones after their deaths&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These passages are taken from the Theoi website:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod, Works &amp; Days 109 ff (trans. Evelyn-White) (Greek epic C8th or C7th B.C.) :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;First of all the deathless gods who dwell on Olympos made a Golden&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (khryseoi) Race of mortal men who lived in the time of Kronos (Cronus)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; when he was reigning in heaven. And they lived like gods without&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sorrow of heart, remote and free from toil and grief: miserable age&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rested not on them; but with legs and arms never failing they made&#xD;&#xA;&gt; merry with feasting beyond the reach of all evils. When they died, it&#xD;&#xA;&gt; was as though they were overcome with sleep, and they had all good&#xD;&#xA;&gt; things; for the fruitful earth unforced bare them fruit abundantly and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; without stint. They dwelt in ease and peace upon their lands with many&#xD;&#xA;&gt; good things, rich in flocks and loved by the blessed gods. But after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; earth had covered this generation--they are called Pure Spirits&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (daimones hagnoi) dwelling on the earth (epikhthonioi), and are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; kindly, delivering from harm, and guardians of mortal men; for they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; roam everywhere over the earth, clothed in mist and keep watch on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; judgements and cruel deeds, givers of wealth [i.e. agricultural&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bounty]; for this royal right also they received.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hesiod, Works &amp; Days 238 ff :&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;For those who practise violence and cruel deeds far-seeing Zeus, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; son of Kronos (Cronus), ordains a punishment. Often even a whole city&#xD;&#xA;&gt; suffers for a bad man who sins and devises presumptuous deeds, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [Zeus] the son of Kronos lays great trouble upon the people, famine&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and plague together, so that the men perish away, and their women do&#xD;&#xA;&gt; not bear children, and their houses become few, through the contriving&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Zeus Olympios (Olympian). And again, at another time, the son of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Kronos either destroys their wide army, or their walls, or else makes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; an end of their ships on the sea. You princes, mark well this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; punishment you also; for the deathless gods are near among men and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mark all those who oppress their fellows with crooked judgements, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reck not the anger of the gods. For upon the bounteous earth Zeus has&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thrice ten thousand Spirits (daimones), Watchers of mortal men, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; these keep watch on judgements and deeds of wrong as they roam,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; clothed in mist, all over the earth.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the part of teaching humans, Prometheus was responsible for giving them the fire, and other gods are also described as teaching certain practices, Hephaestus and Athena are described as having taught humans how to build houses, as well as smithing and weaving, while Demeter is regarded as the one who taught agriculture to mortals, among others.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30358" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="10735" RevisionGUID="b8997f71-8e7d-4629-9fe4-1870b584f96f" CreationDate="2023-07-02T15:18:25.160" Comment="Proposed by 7106 approved by 2682, 398 edit id of 1928" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30359" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10738" RevisionGUID="838d44da-e05c-4f3d-a75c-ab2395523ede" CreationDate="2023-07-05T10:12:13.280" UserId="8896" Text="In popular culture and folklore, many species of Fairies are said to have a small true form (but can alter their size whenever they see fit)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I was wondering when did this occur? Did the original myths mention them being tiny or short beings? Or was this an invention of people like Shakespeare, Drayton, or The Brothers Grimm?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30361" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10738" RevisionGUID="838d44da-e05c-4f3d-a75c-ab2395523ede" CreationDate="2023-07-05T10:12:13.280" UserId="8896" Text="When did many kinds of Fairies become small statured or tiny?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30362" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10738" RevisionGUID="838d44da-e05c-4f3d-a75c-ab2395523ede" CreationDate="2023-07-05T10:12:13.280" UserId="8896" Text="|european-folklore|fairies|fairy-tales|medieval-europe|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30364" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10739" RevisionGUID="c8b3bb65-8bbd-4376-b60f-2cfd8d0728d2" CreationDate="2023-07-10T17:19:18.427" UserId="10388" Text="According to [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus#Theogony), the myth of Prometheus was first _recorded_ around 800 B.C.:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The first recorded account of the Prometheus myth appeared in the late 8th-century BC Greek epic poet Hesiod's Theogony.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But did the ancient Greeks establish a _time_ when Prometheus supposedly granted fire to humans? That is, did Hesiod, for example, ever say that the tale _took place_ X thousand years ago? Can we establish a rough time when the ancient Greeks believe that humans got fire, i.e., how long they had had it?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30366" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10739" RevisionGUID="c8b3bb65-8bbd-4376-b60f-2cfd8d0728d2" CreationDate="2023-07-10T17:19:18.427" UserId="10388" Text="Did the ancient Greeks establish a time when Prometheus gave fire to humans?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30367" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10739" RevisionGUID="c8b3bb65-8bbd-4376-b60f-2cfd8d0728d2" CreationDate="2023-07-10T17:19:18.427" UserId="10388" Text="|greek|prometheus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30368" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10740" RevisionGUID="055726d0-ab0a-4b68-a034-41e66e2d2ce9" CreationDate="2023-07-11T17:22:57.207" UserId="10391" Text="Like most &quot;what happened to fairies&quot; generalizations, there isn't a one size fits all answer, because &quot;fairy&quot; is a term that applies to a whole bunch of different mythical creatures from different cultures with different histories.  The process of lumping all these creatures together into one mythos for use in fantasy stories and role playing games is a later development.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Some cultures already had a tendency to present certain supernatural creatures as diminutive, such as Cornish pixies or Germanic trolls, though even here, diminutive stature wasn't always a feature of these creatures.  Sometimes they were depicted as normal human height.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Others depicted fairy-like creatures as being capable of growing and shrinking at will, and so individual stories might have tiny fairies, but that wasn't some fundamental feature of them.  To make matters more complicated, some cultures used terms like &quot;wee folk&quot; to describe fairies, despite not tending to depict them as diminutive initially, as a sort of polite descriptor to describe spirits diminutive in power compared to the divine after they began to be syncretized into Christianity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Within some of these places, more recent local folklore even tries to explain the &quot;shrinking&quot; of the wee folk as a consequence of the old gods becoming small after they stopped being worshipped.  While this is not literally true in the way some of the folk sayings suggest, there may be a process by which some fairies in narrative gradually diminished in both power and physical stature over time following the advent of Christianity.  There is an interesting theory out there that the leprechaun is a diminutive version of the deity Lugh that shrunk and changed over time following the conversion of Ireland.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As fairies became the purview of Victorian children's authors, their diminutive stature became standardized.  This may be part of the process of making these creatures that could be genuinely dangerous in their original depictions more &quot;kid friendly&quot;, or as a way of explaining why you don't see fairies running around, or both, or neither, but during this time you start to see standard images of fairies, recognizable to modern eyes, showing up.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So it's kind of both.  There are depictions of diminutive fairies in early folklore, and the tendency to represent fairies as diminutive increased and spread over time, but the idea that this applies to all fairies all of the time didn't develop until much later." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30370" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10741" RevisionGUID="3729d19b-7328-4595-a7ca-775b8f170bdd" CreationDate="2023-07-19T02:11:35.747" UserId="8896" Text="I listened to this audio lesson and other online sources, https://study.com/academy/lesson/the-furies-in-greek-mythology-symbols-names-story.html, and they mentioned older myths had an undetermined number of Furies, but the most popular myths only mention 3 by name (Alecto, Tisiphone, Megaera). Is there a collection of those older myths I can find online?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30372" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10741" RevisionGUID="3729d19b-7328-4595-a7ca-775b8f170bdd" CreationDate="2023-07-19T02:11:35.747" UserId="8896" Text="When did the number of the Erinyes in Greek mythology turn into just 3?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30373" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10741" RevisionGUID="3729d19b-7328-4595-a7ca-775b8f170bdd" CreationDate="2023-07-19T02:11:35.747" UserId="8896" Text="|greek|myth-identification|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30374" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10742" RevisionGUID="33bd0782-f30a-4fd1-803a-e1881d627d61" CreationDate="2023-07-19T03:22:46.913" UserId="10410" Text="Could a regular mortal swear on the river Styx,if so what is the punishment for breaking the vow?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30376" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10742" RevisionGUID="33bd0782-f30a-4fd1-803a-e1881d627d61" CreationDate="2023-07-19T03:22:46.913" UserId="10410" Text="Could a regular mortal swear on the river styx" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30377" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10742" RevisionGUID="33bd0782-f30a-4fd1-803a-e1881d627d61" CreationDate="2023-07-19T03:22:46.913" UserId="10410" Text="|greek|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30378" PostHistoryTypeId="10" PostId="10742" RevisionGUID="69a38805-3a7e-430e-9fc8-e4c0126736d9" CreationDate="2023-07-19T08:36:23.040" UserId="53" Comment="101" Text="{&quot;OriginalQuestionIds&quot;:[10286],&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:53,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;Chenmunka&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="30379" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1385" RevisionGUID="84bbe461-dba0-4eee-89d4-783ae315bf29" CreationDate="2023-07-20T02:08:31.273" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30384" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10744" RevisionGUID="aae1e267-2405-487f-914a-607415826fea" CreationDate="2023-07-20T12:07:27.343" UserId="3530" Text="Near the beginning of Book 9, the first incident in Odysseus' account to his Phaeacean hosts of his journey home after the Trojan War." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30386" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10744" RevisionGUID="aae1e267-2405-487f-914a-607415826fea" CreationDate="2023-07-20T12:07:27.343" UserId="3530" Text="How do readers of Homer's Odyssey tend to react to Odysseus' raid on the Cicones at Ismaros?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30387" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10744" RevisionGUID="aae1e267-2405-487f-914a-607415826fea" CreationDate="2023-07-20T12:07:27.343" UserId="3530" Text="|greek|trojan-war|homer|odysseus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30388" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10745" RevisionGUID="11606e3b-61d1-4475-9831-709c26c9c740" CreationDate="2023-07-20T21:52:19.593" UserId="10419" Text="What is the oldest myth or legend which is known to mankind?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's rather simple to determine the age of physical objects, be that pieces of everyday objects, but also written documents. These latter give us to some degree a view into the thoughts or beliefs of the people from the past (like the bible, like the [Qumran Caves Scrolls][1], like the [Kish Tablet][2]), carbon-dating allows determining the age.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is more difficult with spoken language. If they describe an event or a happening it can only be attributed to a certain time, when the event is detectable or known to have happened (like something geological, a big flood, an earthquake, use of lands now submerged, must have happened before a volcano errupted etc.). Within these limits that the myth can somewhat be time-attributed, what is the oldest myth or legend mankind knows?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(I'm aware of [this old][3], but unanswered question. I believe this is similar difficult but not identical and can have an answer)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.oldest.org/artliterature/writing/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/3511/what-is-the-oldest-known-story-from-the-paleolithic-or-mesolithic-if-any-are-kn" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30390" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10745" RevisionGUID="11606e3b-61d1-4475-9831-709c26c9c740" CreationDate="2023-07-20T21:52:19.593" UserId="10419" Text="Oldest provable myth or legend" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30391" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10745" RevisionGUID="11606e3b-61d1-4475-9831-709c26c9c740" CreationDate="2023-07-20T21:52:19.593" UserId="10419" Text="|mythohistory|history|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30392" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10171" RevisionGUID="52c8bb93-1b96-4b3c-9845-168fe318b35a" CreationDate="2023-07-21T00:40:36.917" UserId="6920" Comment="expand a point" Text="The term I have usually seen used, in the context of fairy tales, is &quot;contamination.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For instance, a folklorist might say (and some have said) that the Grimms' version of *Little Red Riding Hood* was contaminated by *The Wolf and The Seven Young Kids*, in that the ending was changed to save the heroine, in comparison with Perrault's version, where she dies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This term reflects a nineteenth-century view of fairy tales surviving in pure form from prehistoric eras, which was ill-founded, but the term has outlasted the belief." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30393" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10746" RevisionGUID="2e10521c-b064-4d92-b1d0-5a5b3b918ce3" CreationDate="2023-07-21T16:36:12.407" UserId="9925" Text="## Probably the End of the Ice Age ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most reasonable way to date stories that are older than writing is to find descriptions of geological events that we can confirm with modern geographic science.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The best of these are probably sea level rise, which I know has some [documentation][1] in the case of the Australian Aborigines having stories from ~5,000 BC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarly, volcanic [eruptions][2] can be dated, and there are stories from Native Americans about tsunamis, landslides, and eruptions that are pre-Western contact and supported by modern investigations.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Also, Linguistics ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Proto-Indo-European ([PIE][3]) stories can be traced back to their origin, because we can find common stories in cultures that we know have a linguistic common heritage, and draw from that that the common stories descended from older stories in the parent culture.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This means that [myths][4] about the Dawn Goddess, Lame Smith, and Sky Father probably trace back to ~3,500 BC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Putting the Two Together ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My favorite unproven folklore theory is that the flood narrative is a PIE myth relating to an outburst flood at the end of the ice age. If an outburst flood similar to the [Missoula floods][5] occurred in North East Europe around the same time as the North American counterpart, it would have flooded the Caspian basin and could have served as the source of the Flood narrative. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This, if true, would date the flood narrative to ~11,000 BC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00049182.2015.1077539&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.science.org/content/article/aboriginal-tale-ancient-volcano-oldest-story-ever-told&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_mythology&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missoula_floods" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30395" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10747" RevisionGUID="5ff09fc1-db9b-438c-bf7a-9e7350430191" CreationDate="2023-07-23T02:29:03.950" UserId="10423" Text="Id like to point out as some one who is Greek and Norse descendant that all 3 gods are similar if you compare the known descriptions. Zeus the Father of gods/Angels.Zues had Angels to cupid and Aris. And Odin's Angels where the Valkyries. All three are the fathers of the gods and human kind and to say God has only one child. We are all gods Children. That make everyone Jesus brother and sisters. God made us and he made juses. If you compare the three Michael the Archangel Apollo the sun god and Bauldar all look a like. God the one true god can build any so there for could he not take the form of zuses or odin if everyone claims he can do anything. Than no one can prove or disprove the 3 gods are not the same. He had to have at least made the other gods. We Call them Angles now not gods. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30397" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2232" RevisionGUID="7c44455d-6e76-4937-9f77-4f0ddde38767" CreationDate="2023-07-23T09:47:51.113" UserId="-1" Comment="Wrath is 10x more than anger" Text="Since Medieval times the following punishments have been assigned to the 7 deadly sins. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; 1. **Pride** - You will be broken on the wheel&#xD;&#xA; 2. **Envy** - Placed in freezing water&#xD;&#xA; 3. **Gluttony** - Force fed rats, toads and snakes&#xD;&#xA; 4. **Lust** - Covered in fire and brimstone&#xD;&#xA; 5. **Wrath** - Live dismemberment&#xD;&#xA; 6. **Greed** - Boiled in oil&#xD;&#xA; 7. **Sloth** - Thrown into a snake pit&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The list of the 7 sins came first from *Pope Gregory I* in *590 AD*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dante then wrote his *Purgatorio* &amp; *Inferno* with descriptions given as to the punishments given for the sins. These were sometimes conflicted between the two books, for example in *Purgatorio* the punishment for lust was to be walk in flames, however in *Inferno* the souls of those that had committed the sin of lust were blown upon the winds. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dante also wrote that anyone that committed any of the deadly sins would never be able to look upon the face of God. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Various Theologians came up with the accepted punishments detailed above over the centuries following Pope Gregory I's official naming of the sins.  &#xD;&#xA;Numerous books on the 7 Deadly sins, as well as a number of websites, for example [Sins, Virtues, and Tales][1] explains these nicely.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.deadlysins.com/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30398" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="2232" RevisionGUID="7c44455d-6e76-4937-9f77-4f0ddde38767" CreationDate="2023-07-23T09:47:51.113" Comment="Proposed by anonymous approved by 53 edit id of 1929" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30399" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="2666" RevisionGUID="5fe985c5-f31a-4f01-b926-9518517cfb59" CreationDate="2023-07-23T16:59:41.447" UserId="2682" Comment="adjusted a detail" Text="BRIEF&#xD;&#xA;-----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles [Heracles] never engaged in combat against any Titan, neither before nor after his deification (his becoming a god). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Olympians participated in two cosmic conflicts: *Titanomakhia*, the &quot;Titans’ War&quot;; and *Gigantomakhia*, the &quot;Gigantes’ War.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Titans’ War is supposed to have taken place tens of thousands of years before Herakles’ birth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles was, however, brought to life specifically so that he could help the Olympians defeat the Gigantes (Giants), who turned out to be the deadliest threat to them since the era of the Titans. The Gigantes’ War, during which Herakles assisted the gods, thus broke out in the hero’s lifetime, while he was still a mortal, one human generation before the Trojan War. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**CHRONOLOGY**  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Here’s a basic timeline of some of the events mentioned here, using very loose dates of when they are supposed to have happened:&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 31,400 BC: **The Titans’ War**   &#xD;&#xA;31,300 BC: Birth of the God Hermes  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 31,200 BC: Imprisonment of the Titan Prometheus   &#xD;&#xA;1500 BC: Arabos, son of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hermes (&amp; ancestor of Herakles), becomes the first king of Arabia  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1300 BC: Birth of Herakles   &#xD;&#xA;1270 BC: Herakles releases Prometheus  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; 1260 BC: **The Gigantes’ War**   &#xD;&#xA;1250 BC: Death of Herakles   &#xD;&#xA;1220 BC:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Trojan War&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;The author of the [Greek Mythology Link (GML)](http://www.maicar.com/GML/MythicalChronology.html) also has a chronological outline of the major events of the mythic eras. The chart from that page is displayed below, at the end of this Answer.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;BREAKDOWN&#xD;&#xA;---------&#xD;&#xA;**The Immortality and Godhood of Herakles**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`But before he could die, Zeus has rescued him by raising his spirit to Olympos, making him an immortal god.`&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The way I have always understood the story, Herakles does genuinely die, for sure. It is only after he is dead that he is raised up to Mt Olympos [Olympus] and becomes a god. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There are legends which seem partly designed to explain Herakles’ transition from a mere mortal shade in the land of the dead to a full-fledged divinity of Mt Olympos in his own right. There were different levels of deity in the various cults of Ancient Greece, in which there were divinities who were defined merely as heroes and others as *hemitheoi* (demigods, “half-gods”) in addition to those who were full-on *theoi*, “gods.” &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In one story, after Herakles’ suicide, his remains could not be found on his funeral pyre, so his nephew Iolaos became the first to sacrifice to the dead hero as a *hemitheos* (demigod). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to Pausanias’ *Description of Greece*, Herakles had a son named Phaistos [Phaestus] who became king of the city of Sikyon. When Phaistos first arrived at Sikyon he found that the locals were making offerings to Herakles as a hero. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Phaistos then refused to do anything of the kind, but insisted on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sacrificing to him as to a *theos*. Even at the present day [`100s AD, over a thousand years after Herakles’ death`] the Sikyonians, after&#xD;&#xA;&gt; slaying a lamb and burning the thighs upon the altar, eat some of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; meat as part of a victim given to a *theos*, while the rest they offer&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as to a hero.   &#xD;&#xA;[2.10.1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Antagonism Against Titans** &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`Drinking ambrosia in the company of Zeus couldn't entirely satisfy Heracles, so he continued his heroic deeds as an immortal god. Already experienced in defeating immortal beasts, he again helps the Olympians by fighting against the monstrous children the primordial gods have spawned. As a physically strong god, he was a decisive factor in ending the rule of the Titans and ensuring that the Olympian gods would rule the world.`&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;`These stories seem contradictory.`&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is some confusion that has occurred here in general about the timeline, the wars and Herakles’ participation in one of them. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There actually are no ancient stories in which Herakles fights against anybody after his apotheosis (deification), apart from a mural from Athens which depicts him, as an immortal god, together with the goddess Athena and a resurrected Theseus, fighting together with the Greeks against the Persians at the Battle of Marathon in 490 BC. All of Herakles' other adventurous encounters against men, gods, giants and monstrous beasts take place while he is still alive as a mortal man. One of the main features of his story is that he *earns* his immortality by fighting and defeating the monsters and colossal obstacles that he encounters as a mortal. His most dramatic tasks are predetermined for him by Zeus and Hera when he is still a baby. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;None of the deities that this hero ever combats are Titans. There are two different occasions on which there is an aggressive confrontation between Herakles and a Titan but both of these wind up pretty fast and quite peacefully. He once fires arrows upon Helios, the Sun, out of anger at the burning heat from this god’s light, but Helios simply laughs off the attack and even bestows a gift upon this powerful archer. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Then Pherecydes tells us that when Herakles was crossing the cosmic earth-encircling Okeanos River, its god, the Titan Okeanos, rose up in his waves to rock the hero’s vessel in an attempt to intimidate him. Herakles threatened to shoot the Titan with his arrows, whereupon Okeanos fearfully calmed his waters. There is also the story about Herakles tricking the Titan Atlas into holding up the edge of the sky again after having taken a break from this task.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Cosmic Wars**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By my reckoning, Titanomakhia would have occurred even before the birth of Hermes, the grandson of the Titan Atlas who became the last of the Twelve Olympians. Not very long after the end of Titanomakhia, Atlas’ brother Prometheus was imprisoned by Zeus on the Caucasus Mountains, on the border of Europe and Asia. The Roman writer Hyginus provides us with the chronology for this in his *Fabulæ* and *Astronomica*, in both of which works he says that Prometheus was kept in chains for thirty thousand years before his bonds were broken by none other than Herakles.&#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;Even in ancient times, however, the Titans and the Gigantes, and the two separate wars that they waged against the inhabitants of Mt Olympos, were sometimes confused with one another. The writer most notorious for mixing up his Greek myths and their characters is Hyginus. He lists Iapetos, the father of Atlas and Prometheus, as a Gigantos [Giant], even though Iapetos is certainly a Titan. He makes the same slip-up with the Titans Koios and Astraios. This is further complicated by the participation of some primordial Gigantes in the Titans’ War. Most of these Giant soldiers seem to have sided with Kronos against Zeus in that particular contest. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One especially clear difference between the two conflicts is that the Titans were immortal (or at least almost all of them seem to have been) while the Gigantes were not. At the end of Titanomakhia the enemies of the gods had to be incarcerated in Tartaros, the deepest part of the Underworld. Gigantomakhia, on the other hand, only ended when almost all of the Gigantes were dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Herakles and the Gigantes are, in a way, parallel characters. Both Herakles and the Giants are almost mightier than the gods. Gaia, the Earth, gives birth to the Gigantes in order for them to avenge the defeat of Kronos during Titanomakhia. This trips the gods out because there is a prophecy among them which declares that unless they employ the help of a mortal, they will not be able to defeat the Gigantes. Zeus takes this well in hand and contrives the means to create the strongest mortal hero of all, who, when he grows up, will be the suitably required ally against their enemy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus we have the story in which Zeus disguises himself as Amphitryon, the fiancé of Herakles’ mother Alkmene, in order to consort with her and sire this hero upon her. He stretches the night in which Herakles is conceived into the length of three nights, in order to produce this strongest and toughest of men. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Meanwhile Gaia is scheming to obtain a special plant growing upon her surface. This plant is a drug with the power to make the Gigantes indestructible, even at mortal hands. So Zeus commands the heavenly lights, such as the Sun, Moon and Stars, not to shine while Gaia searches for this substance. Evidently she never finds it, because Herakles grows up, as do the Gigantes, and these huge enemies of the gods are after all slain by this mortal hero in collaboration with the Olympians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Precise Chronology of Gigantomakhia**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus specifies for us, in *Bibliotheka* 2.7.1-2, that Gigantomakhia broke out sometime after Herakles had completed his twelve tasks. While sailing back to Greece from an expedition at Troy, Herakles and his army landed on the Aegean island of Kos, whose locals mistook him and his men for pirates. Herakles, in retaliation, laid the island to waste, at which point the goddess Athena came to fetch him from there to take him to Phlegra, in Thrace, where the Olympians were at war against the Gigantes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After Herakles had dispensed with the Gigantes, he moved on to attack Augeias, King of the Epeians of Elis, who had broken a deal with him during the performance of one of his twelve tasks. Here we incidentally get a display of Herakles’ mortality and the fact that he is not all-powerful: he suffers a dramatic defeat at the hands of Augeias’ army generals, the twin brothers Eurytos and Kteatos, who are sometimes portrayed as monstrous or gigantic. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Apollodorus goes on to say that these brothers were the strongest men alive at the time. It could be that Herakles was, during this encounter, exhausted from waging cosmic battle against the Gigantes. Additionally, the *Bibliotheka* implies that he lost this fight because he fell sick during the attack on Elis. It may nonetheless prove that these twins were stronger than Herakles, since he was only able to kill them by treacherously waylaying them during a sacred ceasefire sometime after they had defeated him (fairly uncharacteristic behaviour for him). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Carlos Parada’s GML delineation of the timeline][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;Carlos Parada’s GML delineation of the timeline  &#xD;&#xA;See also [Marc Carlson’s rendition](http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/history/clam.html), as well as a [third alternative, from the Argyrou website](http://www.argyrou.eclipse.co.uk/Chronology.htm).&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/l2Unu.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30400" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10748" RevisionGUID="b807a4ed-3d19-46c2-a358-52ca1c59e7b5" CreationDate="2023-07-24T02:28:40.860" UserId="2682" Text="Pretty much, yes, at least according to one source, although that source, technically is Roman, from the time of Augustus Cæsar, and thus nearly a millennium later than Hesiod's *Theogony*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At the turn of the 1st centuries BC and AD, a freedman of Cæsar's, namely Hyginus, wrote two works, the *Fabulæ* and the *Poetica Astronomica*, in both of which he says that the Titan Prometheus was imprisoned for thirty thousand years before he was released by the hero Heracles (or rather *Hercules*, as Hyginus would have called him).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In [*Astronomica* 2.15.3](https://topostext.org/work/207#2.15.3), Hyginus cites the Greek tragedian Aeschylus (from about 500 years before Hyginus' own time) as the source of this detail regarding the Titan's incarceration. As Hyginus tells it, humans, actually, had always been in possession of fire, until Prometheus played a trick on Zeus in which mortals got to keep the better part of the sacrificial ox offered to the gods. Indignant at this, Zeus then took fire *away* from humankind (*let's see how they like the meat when it's plain raw!*), prompting Prometheus' scheme to steal it back on their behalf. For the theft, Zeus then punished Prometheus by nailing him to Mt Caucasus in Scythia, in which condition, as we have noted, he remained for the next thirty millennia.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Neither Hyginus nor Hesiod makes a direct reference to how long before his own era he understands these events to have occurred, but Greco-Roman mythology has an internal chronology consistent enough for one to calculate, at least roughly, when we should imagine them to have taken place.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Traditionally the Trojan War is dated as having occurred sometime between 1200 and 1180 BC, and Heracles lived about a generation before this war. If he freed Prometheus, say, around 1270 BC, counting 30,000 years backwards from that gives us **c. 31,270 BC** as the date of the Titan's binding, as Marc Carlson does in his 2004 &quot;Timeline of Classical Mythology.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We might perhaps allow a few years before his punishment in which Prometheus was (re-)teaching humankind the use of fire, but there we have it: People would have been in possession of fire for the past 33,000 years or so, and if we include the era before Zeus deprived them of it, then, really, since the beginning of time.    &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most such calculations that I've seen, however, if they know about Hyginus's large time-duration on this question, are evidently not bothered to take him into account, and hence they place the primaeval events at a much more recent time. E.g., Argyros George Argyrou's 2009 &quot;[Chronology of Greece and the Greek Myths](http://www.argyrou.eclipse.co.uk/Chronology.htm)&quot; places the start of Prometheus' imprisonment at **1667 BC**; while Giambattista Vico (writing in his *New Science* in 1744 AD) has it that Prometheus stole the fire in **2143 BC**. This is would make it so that it has been only about 4000 years since he granted it to humans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The basis of Argyrou's and Vico's dates seems to be the Flood which came in the time of Prometheus's son Deucalion, so that Prometheus was fastened to the Caucasus Mountains not long before that, but otherwise the sequence of events they are working with is the same as that narrated by Hyginus. The main difference would be to understand several thousands of years (about 29,000?) between Prometheus being sentenced by Zeus on the one hand, and Zeus sending Deucalion's Flood to destroy humanity on the other hand.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Related Question:* [Is it possible to build a timeline for Greek mythology?](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/q/6481/2682)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30402" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7726" RevisionGUID="eb27142c-7943-420a-aa85-e0233f32d931" CreationDate="2023-07-24T07:01:52.777" UserId="7106" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="There are a many Greek myths that are tied to weddings, like Thetis wedding as the origin of the Trojan War. Are there other tales in major mythologies that include weddings? I am looking for myths that include weddings and not origin myths of wedding rituals per se." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30403" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="7726" RevisionGUID="99ca4357-301a-4c04-bd0b-db6d20ff28aa" CreationDate="2023-07-24T07:45:22.173" UserId="7106" Comment="edited title" Text="Non-Greek myths set in a wedding" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30404" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7726" RevisionGUID="99ca4357-301a-4c04-bd0b-db6d20ff28aa" CreationDate="2023-07-24T07:45:22.173" UserId="7106" Comment="edited title" Text="There are a many Greek myths that are set in a wedding, like Thetis wedding as the origin of the Trojan War (see also Harmonia's necklace and Orion's earthborn myth). Are there other tales in major mythologies that are set in a wedding? I am looking for myths that are set in a wedding and not origin myths of wedding rituals per se." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30405" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10749" RevisionGUID="850951a9-5a97-4487-8afa-42e878b25768" CreationDate="2023-07-24T17:25:07.423" UserId="10428" Text="Diomedes is the best of them all.  To answer your question: Diomedes secret weapon was he never committed hubris. &#xD;&#xA;I think he's the only mortal to take out two gods (Aphrodite and then Ares himself) in one day.  He was never beaten I don't think. In anything.  And he was always the hero and better man.&#xD;&#xA;Seriously, the Gods favored him supposedly because he was never arroganteven with himself (ie hubris).&#xD;&#xA;He is my absolute favorite of the mortal men, and like guy above said, he survived Troy.  I think most would agree he is 2nd next to Achilles, but look who was (conversely) Hector's 2nd.  It was Aeneas. Who by the end of the Aeneid (When Rome begins) The 2ndamong the trojans also survives and makes a case for who really was 2nd best.&#xD;&#xA;  Diomedes' adventures go on and on.  I have no idea why you never hear about Diomedes'. Aeneas,his Trojan Counterpart has his own Aeneid.  But Diomedes you rarely ever hear of... Why?&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30407" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10750" RevisionGUID="5d7811e6-710d-492a-8da0-779dff7e8e6d" CreationDate="2023-07-25T22:43:43.670" UserId="10430" Text="thank you for your time. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I remember (and I may be mis remembering some things!) a myth where there was a mother and her three sons doted over her and ran for her every wish. The three sons carried her somewhere and got her there on time and she was so overcome with pride she said something along the lines of &quot; I'm so proud of my sons I wish they could stay like this forever! &quot; and the gods heard her and turned her sons into statues. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I cant remember the myth exactly and I looked through several myths that were similar to no avail. The moral of the story was something like 'careful what you wish for' but I remember it was more deep than that and that's why I wanted to read it again. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30409" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10750" RevisionGUID="5d7811e6-710d-492a-8da0-779dff7e8e6d" CreationDate="2023-07-25T22:43:43.670" UserId="10430" Text="What is the greek/roman myth with woman proud of her three sons but they die" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30410" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10750" RevisionGUID="5d7811e6-710d-492a-8da0-779dff7e8e6d" CreationDate="2023-07-25T22:43:43.670" UserId="10430" Text="|greek|myth-identification|roman|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30411" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10751" RevisionGUID="9ac71647-13b5-4b46-8f72-06f2deae629c" CreationDate="2023-07-26T02:42:43.100" UserId="6920" Text="Probably [Kleobis and Biton][1].  When they could not find their oxen to pull the cart, they themselves drew the cart the six miles so their mother could attend a festival at the temple of Hera, and when she prayed that Hera reward them, they fell asleep in the temple and never woke again.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This was generally discussed in matters of what makes for happiness.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleobis_and_Biton" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30414" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10752" RevisionGUID="7b8bee0b-d813-4b55-b606-6e7d975862fb" CreationDate="2023-07-29T15:44:27.493" UserId="10440" Text="There is a growing trend stating that Krishna and Buddha were born on dec 25 which is very false and easily and widely debunked by eastern religions, also Krishna was NOT crucified nor born of a virgin an neither was Buddha... people need to get their facts straight before publishing foot-in mouth articles and books just to push thier own agenda and beliefs." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30416" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="10638" RevisionGUID="9952e772-9923-43af-945c-85a41722acd0" CreationDate="2023-07-29T21:02:00.250" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30417" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10753" RevisionGUID="5b39d53f-a5fb-4716-8f6d-ad46fee55e71" CreationDate="2023-07-31T00:08:00.570" UserId="10449" Text="Her role as a creation goddess is obvious, but could she be considered as a death goddess because of her link to the underworld? Or have Shintos never really seen it that way?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30419" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10753" RevisionGUID="5b39d53f-a5fb-4716-8f6d-ad46fee55e71" CreationDate="2023-07-31T00:08:00.570" UserId="10449" Text="Would Izanami be considered a death or underworld goddess?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30420" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10753" RevisionGUID="5b39d53f-a5fb-4716-8f6d-ad46fee55e71" CreationDate="2023-07-31T00:08:00.570" UserId="10449" Text="|shinto|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30427" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10755" RevisionGUID="c9ec5595-a675-4b37-bf5d-cb5affde0389" CreationDate="2023-08-02T10:01:46.540" UserId="53" Text="For questions relating to myths originating from Persia." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30429" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10755" RevisionGUID="c9ec5595-a675-4b37-bf5d-cb5affde0389" CreationDate="2023-08-02T10:01:46.540" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30430" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10756" RevisionGUID="e499d9c9-5b28-4ff2-b3d4-9959fdc3d72f" CreationDate="2023-08-02T10:01:46.540" UserId="53" Text="For questions relating to myths from Persia" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30432" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10756" RevisionGUID="e499d9c9-5b28-4ff2-b3d4-9959fdc3d72f" CreationDate="2023-08-02T10:01:46.540" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30433" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10757" RevisionGUID="c28c8abd-0823-4b9e-9607-9d13ae688c51" CreationDate="2023-08-02T10:05:13.347" UserId="53" Text="Regarding myths originating in Mesoamerica.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mesoamerica comprises the modern countries of Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Honduras, El Salvador, Guatemala, Belize and Mexico.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Incorporates the Olmec, Zapotec, Maya, Toltec and Aztec peoples. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30435" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10757" RevisionGUID="c28c8abd-0823-4b9e-9607-9d13ae688c51" CreationDate="2023-08-02T10:05:13.347" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30436" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10758" RevisionGUID="719f3d83-5e91-4992-8b82-bf3ad2a218f0" CreationDate="2023-08-02T10:05:13.347" UserId="53" Text="For myths originatin in mesoamerica." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30438" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10758" RevisionGUID="719f3d83-5e91-4992-8b82-bf3ad2a218f0" CreationDate="2023-08-02T10:05:13.347" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30439" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10759" RevisionGUID="f1f8bf59-b9ed-4677-8175-f3bd628011e5" CreationDate="2023-08-02T10:06:04.500" UserId="53" Text="Myths regarding love in all its forms." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30441" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10759" RevisionGUID="f1f8bf59-b9ed-4677-8175-f3bd628011e5" CreationDate="2023-08-02T10:06:04.500" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30442" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10760" RevisionGUID="7dda1441-b759-4836-8e48-4c792aed1ec2" CreationDate="2023-08-02T10:06:04.500" UserId="53" Text="Myths regarding love in all its forms" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30444" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10760" RevisionGUID="7dda1441-b759-4836-8e48-4c792aed1ec2" CreationDate="2023-08-02T10:06:04.500" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30445" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4536" RevisionGUID="5f161186-d7f3-495f-a408-d157a2213c1a" CreationDate="2023-08-02T10:11:04.260" UserId="53" Comment="Created wiki" Text="Myths originating in the ancient Akkadian empire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The middle eastern region of Mesopotamia.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30446" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4537" RevisionGUID="82244886-86f9-4a16-a8a4-a87345a60b21" CreationDate="2023-08-02T10:11:04.260" UserId="53" Comment="Created wiki" Text="Myths originating in th Akkadian empire" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30447" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3495" RevisionGUID="0bd99e5d-eb05-49f6-888b-6f17d2541a0e" CreationDate="2023-08-02T10:22:42.707" UserId="53" Comment="Created wiki" Text="For myths from the Prose Edda.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The 13th century book of Norse mythology compiled by Snorri Sturluson.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The prologue describes the Norse gods as Trojan warriors.&#xD;&#xA;The section titled Gylfaginning recounts Norse mythology.&#xD;&#xA;The other sections are literary descriptions of the poetry of the time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See also [tag:gylfaginning]" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30448" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="3496" RevisionGUID="a0cab2cf-233c-40b1-acb0-ebd1f8c57129" CreationDate="2023-08-02T10:22:42.707" UserId="53" Comment="Created wiki" Text="For myths from the Prose Edda, the 13th century book of Norse mythology." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30449" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="954" RevisionGUID="bc33c399-fe2a-41cb-9bc4-d29daa940366" CreationDate="2023-08-02T10:25:14.923" UserId="53" Comment="Added prose-edda link" Text="The Gulfaginning is the book of the Prose Edda that relates Norse myths.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See also [tag:prose-edda] for more general questions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Gylfaginning was our first ever [Myth of the Month][1]. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://meta.mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/263/myth-of-the-month-1-gylfaginning" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30450" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10761" RevisionGUID="e8e90241-7626-4130-96c6-c3f6d4f5fa4c" CreationDate="2023-08-02T10:27:16.647" UserId="53" Text="For questions regarding the mythology of the Vedic religion and literature." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30452" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10761" RevisionGUID="e8e90241-7626-4130-96c6-c3f6d4f5fa4c" CreationDate="2023-08-02T10:27:16.647" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30453" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10762" RevisionGUID="e2f37980-212d-4b46-b7e1-dadc8604e73f" CreationDate="2023-08-02T10:27:16.647" UserId="53" Text="For questions regarding Vedic myths." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30455" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10762" RevisionGUID="e2f37980-212d-4b46-b7e1-dadc8604e73f" CreationDate="2023-08-02T10:27:16.647" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30456" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10763" RevisionGUID="f5ce735a-7181-4da3-a789-063306a7b7e9" CreationDate="2023-08-02T10:28:00.030" UserId="53" Text="For myths originating in Finland" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30458" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10763" RevisionGUID="f5ce735a-7181-4da3-a789-063306a7b7e9" CreationDate="2023-08-02T10:28:00.030" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30459" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10764" RevisionGUID="ff119abd-af7e-416f-b953-7e82d836c9e0" CreationDate="2023-08-02T10:28:00.030" UserId="53" Text="For myths originating in Finland" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30461" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10764" RevisionGUID="ff119abd-af7e-416f-b953-7e82d836c9e0" CreationDate="2023-08-02T10:28:00.030" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30462" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10765" RevisionGUID="e116afff-b1dd-417d-ae2e-b05606a5b699" CreationDate="2023-08-02T21:23:34.847" UserId="10462" Text="From what I can gather, we assume Pandora opened the box out of curiosity because when it's told as a cautionary tale, we twist it to make it seem like she opened it because of her humanity, hence implying curiosity.&#xD;&#xA;It's equally possible the Pandora simply wanted to open the box. Especially considering how she's described in this context.&#xD;&#xA;I haven't found anything original saying that it was out of curiosity.&#xD;&#xA;As for the jar vs box thing, from what I can tell, we just call it &quot;Pandora's Box&quot; because it sounds better than &quot;Pandora's Jar&quot;." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30466" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="10622" RevisionGUID="2b372db4-f08e-49f3-bbe1-3a330534a506" CreationDate="2023-08-03T21:03:30.377" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30468" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10767" RevisionGUID="915ab950-ccf6-4b25-b3b8-8f7e5a3e3cc5" CreationDate="2023-08-08T03:40:11.220" UserId="10472" Text="My grandfather told me these stores 30+ years ago. He loved telling y’all tales and convinced me they were real when I was little. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;His story was they were called Aracarebas (no idea how it’s spelled) and they had two legs shorter than the other two so they could walk on hills. Only problem was they couldn’t turn around so they would have to circle the entire hill to get back to their barn at the end of the day. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He also told me stories about jackalope hunting and Naugas (small creatures that went extinct due to the popularity of naugahyde so they started having to make faux leather naugahyde) and I think a few others.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I actually found this post trying to get some reference for the old story. Thought I’d add my recollection." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30470" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10767" RevisionGUID="832aa744-681f-4857-9248-cf4773916f02" CreationDate="2023-08-08T03:40:30.917" UserId="10472" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="My grandfather told me these stores 30+ years ago. He loved telling tall tales and convinced me they were real when I was little. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;His story was they were called Aracarebas (no idea how it’s spelled) and they had two legs shorter than the other two so they could walk on hills. Only problem was they couldn’t turn around so they would have to circle the entire hill to get back to their barn at the end of the day. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He also told me stories about jackalope hunting and Naugas (small creatures that went extinct due to the popularity of naugahyde so they started having to make faux leather naugahyde) and I think a few others.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I actually found this post trying to get some reference for the old story. Thought I’d add my recollection." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30471" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10768" RevisionGUID="09b4b3a9-1a82-4079-93c6-e332f42dc87a" CreationDate="2023-08-09T13:19:52.550" UserId="10476" Text="Is the creation week an introduction by Abrahamic religions, or are there other known religions that also have, as part of their creation myths, a creation week (not necessarily of 7 days)? I've googled this question but only got results discussing the creation week in Genesis." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30473" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10768" RevisionGUID="09b4b3a9-1a82-4079-93c6-e332f42dc87a" CreationDate="2023-08-09T13:19:52.550" UserId="10476" Text="Do we know of any pagan creation myths that also feature a creation week?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30474" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10768" RevisionGUID="09b4b3a9-1a82-4079-93c6-e332f42dc87a" CreationDate="2023-08-09T13:19:52.550" UserId="10476" Text="|creation|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30475" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10769" RevisionGUID="0c85bd02-5413-4f5d-9d4a-53cbca28e7a1" CreationDate="2023-08-09T15:27:29.153" UserId="10477" Text="In Christian mythology, in [John 2:1–11][1], at the [Wedding at Cana][2], Jesus turns water into wine.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://bible.oremus.org/?passage=John%202:1%E2%80%9311&amp;version=nrsv&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedding_at_Cana" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30477" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="10738" RevisionGUID="f488afe8-5eca-4902-9b61-dc9eb960d4ed" CreationDate="2023-08-10T18:04:05.507" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30483" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10771" RevisionGUID="78f1c4a9-d1d2-469f-8d3f-ef7b4d646e21" CreationDate="2023-08-11T13:32:37.863" UserId="10484" Text="Although this question is mostly inspired by video games, I'm searching for the cultural (mythological?) root of this &quot;trope&quot; (I lack a better term).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At this point, I encountered it multiple times to see a pattern. If you're unaware then let me explain that there's a common cliche regarding Japanese Role Playing games: &quot;Use The Power Of Friendship To Kill God&quot; ;-) But while I've been playing games like **Xenoblade Chronicles**, **Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia** or **Final Fantasy XII** I noticed that it kind of evolved from simply killing someone powerful, to **succeeding him and inheriting his world, or even replacing them**. From the reoccurring quote &quot;History in the hands of man&quot; in FFXII, or deciding whether the world belongs to a god figure or the human characters like in Xenoblade Chronicles game. There's a lot of talk about free will and the fact that the choice belongs to humans and so on.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does this way of thinking correspond with Far East Asian cultures? Does it have roots in myths and legends or is it rather a contemporary thing?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30485" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10771" RevisionGUID="78f1c4a9-d1d2-469f-8d3f-ef7b4d646e21" CreationDate="2023-08-11T13:32:37.863" UserId="10484" Text="Are humans suppose to succeed gods in Far East mythologies?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30486" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10771" RevisionGUID="78f1c4a9-d1d2-469f-8d3f-ef7b4d646e21" CreationDate="2023-08-11T13:32:37.863" UserId="10484" Text="|japanese|chinese|korean|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30488" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10772" RevisionGUID="f339e632-ca8d-49a4-a7ed-6110af6603b6" CreationDate="2023-08-12T21:55:32.670" UserId="3530" Text="I posted the original question a few years ago. In the meantime I have thought and read about it further in the light of the Comments and Answer I received and now suggest the following partial answers, subject to what anyone else may make of this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Why Homer includes this incident, when most readers find it less interesting and appealing than Odysseus' later adventures with the Cyclops, Lotus Eaters, Circe turning his men into pigs, the ghosts of Hades etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Modern stories of the supernatural tend to begin in ordinary reality to establish credibility before introducing the more creepy or fantastical elements. In the same way, Odysseus begins his journey with a raid of the type that probably did occur in those days, representing a local continuation of the Trojan War, to anchor his narrative in reality, before getting on to the more unlikely but more entertaining encounters with magic and monsters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It also reminds us of the War the Greeks have been fighting for the past decade.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, it demonstrates a theme that will recur later in the stories of the bag of winds and Helios's cattle, that Odysseus has wiser judgment than his men (in this case wanting to sail away quickly with their loot before the Cicones of the rest of that country can do anything about it) but cannot always persuade his men to do the sensible thing.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. How Odysseus conquers Ismaros so easily. Most likely by striking quickly and catching the Cicones of Ismaros by surprise. Greek 50 oared ships of the time were suited to making sudden surprise attacks. Having both sails and oars for propulsion, if the wind was favourable they could approach quickly, and did not have to find a harbour to land but could drive the front part of the ship on to a beach and the warriors jump straight out on to the sand.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. Why Odysseus attacks Ismaros. From various other references in the Odyssey e.g. the Cretan 'cover' story that Odysseus tells Eumeus in Book 14, raiding across the seas for plunder was a common and socially acceptable way to gain wealth. However, I confess I am a little puzzled by the contrast between this and the idealisation of hospitality 'xenia' and mutual duties between travellers and hosts in the rest of the poem. Was the rule to be generous and respectful to your host/guest, except when you decided to kill them?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4 a. Fate of the women of Ismaros enslaved by Odysseus and his men; no one, not even feminist commentators, asks whether Odysseus selects one of these women for himself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4 b. Trojan women slaves. While not mentioned in the Odyssey, another tradition, cited by Euripides in 'The Trojan Women' and 'Hecuba', Hecuba Queen of Troy became a slave of Odysseus." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30490" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10773" RevisionGUID="9f421693-6f08-44d2-bf7e-ea5542ca545f" CreationDate="2023-08-13T21:57:25.937" UserId="3530" Text="'10.349 Meanwhile, four slaves, her house girls, were at work around the palace. They were nymphs, the daughters of fountains and of groves and holy rivers'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nymphs were semi-divine, usually immortal, female beings associated with water or woods. Are there any other instances in Greek Mythology of what we would call supernatural beings like nymphs becoming slaves? How would they become so? Or is Professor Wilson's translation misleading here?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I ask as one of the ways Emily Wilson set out to be different from other translators of the Odyssey was that where Homer's original Greek text uses words implying slavery she made this clear, where previous translators often softened this to words less shocking to a modern audience like 'servant', 'attendant' or 'maid'. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, I wonder if she sometimes overdoes this. Other translations I have checked merely refer to Circe having nymphs serving her (rather as the goddess Artemis has nymph attendants), and does not say they are slaves. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I raised this on another internet forum and the one opinion I received was that semi-divine creatures like nymphs could not be 'owned' as property as a slave, and the translation must be making a false assumption, automatically equating 'service' with slavery.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I also have doubts about 2 other references to slaves earlier in Book 10, when Odysseus sends a party of three men to make contact with the inhabitants, first on returning unexpectedly to Aeolus' island and again on landing on the island of the Laestragonians.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;10.59 '...I took one slave with me&#xD;&#xA;And one crew member, back to see Aeolus'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;10.100 'I picked two men, and one slave as the third,&#xD;&#xA;And sent them to find out what people lived &#xD;&#xA;And ate bread in this land'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If these translations are correct they are the only explicit references to Odysseus having slaves on board his ships. However, again, no other translation I have checked refers to slaves at these points, most saying 'herald' or 'messenger'. I assume this is the Greek word 'kerux', often translated, as the nearest equivalent 'herald', meaning men trusted to convey important messages on behalf of important people in this illiterate culture, where it was not possible just to send a letter or note. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as I know, 'heralds / kerykes' were moderately important people in that society and not normally slaves. Also, while the loyalty and commitment of slaves varies considerably in the Odyssey, it is at least surprising that a slave, who might be more likely than a free man to be tempted to escape, desert or switch sides, would be trusted as part of such a small group on such a delicate mission.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, are these instances all examples of Prof. Wilson getting carried away and being too ready to assume relationships of subordination in Homer's epics are actually slavery?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Having said all that I find Emily Wilson's Odyssey translation overall the best there is in English, but that does not mean that I agree with her on everything." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30492" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10773" RevisionGUID="9f421693-6f08-44d2-bf7e-ea5542ca545f" CreationDate="2023-08-13T21:57:25.937" UserId="3530" Text="Is Emily Wilson's 2018 translation of Homer's Odyssey correct to say the sorceress Circe had nymphs as 'slaves' (Book 10 line 349)?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30493" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10773" RevisionGUID="9f421693-6f08-44d2-bf7e-ea5542ca545f" CreationDate="2023-08-13T21:57:25.937" UserId="3530" Text="|greek|odyssey|translation|nymphs|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30496" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10775" RevisionGUID="33a42c2c-fbf6-4d16-b5fc-af7df421651e" CreationDate="2023-08-15T20:30:10.290" UserId="10491" Text="Tír in irish means land &#xD;&#xA;Vin in Italian Latin means wine cón in irish is truncated from Latin meaning shortened or Conchubhar , or conbhrú&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;late Middle English originally Scots, as a verb in the senses ‘convey’, ‘conduct’, and ‘act as escort&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;jovialité in French Heartitness &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;joviale , cheerful hearty &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;jeunesse, Youth &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Von we vae go &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;escorted Land Of youth and wine &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;javaneg in Breton means island or land or referred to Javanese which is a language of Java Indonesia &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Alot Of others mean French jestraouiñ in Breton means to express emotions or movement which is similar to  joviale or &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;jeunesse meaning youth in French you can see similarities in Jestraouiñ with Jeunesse &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tir in Welsh is also land so Tír in Celtic languages as a whole so Tír Jovincon is Celtic languages based with Latin based words that Translate to &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;escorted Land Of youth and wine&#xD;&#xA;Gauls spoke Latin too they knew most of Romance Latin &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So escorted Land Of youth and wine or Land Of Youth &amp; wine of can be o from Welsh &#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30498" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10776" RevisionGUID="d888be5e-2e08-4fe2-ae2f-5f478f641842" CreationDate="2023-08-16T07:26:22.263" UserId="10494" Text="I just wanted to add that some versions of the Basilisk which DO depict it without either wings or legs, also specify that it does not slither like a snake, but coils its body almost like a Slinky, and moves about by undulating and roiling its coils. This is noted in the Time-Life Enchanted World series in the volume &quot;Magical Beasts.&quot; I am unaware of a Cockatrice ever being depicted without wings or legs.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like all mythological cryptids in the bestiary, there is some wiggle room in the legends. This is how one can find descriptions that say that the Cockatrice is much larger than a Basilisk, while others say the Basilisk is much larger than a Cockatrice. Or there can be descriptions of a Basilisk as wingless yet the Wikipedia page on Basilisks, contains 5 pictures of the creature--three of which clearly show it with wings, and two without." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30501" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4825" RevisionGUID="569d87e0-e152-4cc4-994c-d412d7820e96" CreationDate="2023-08-16T21:14:11.380" UserId="7106" Comment="this should be in quote form" Text="From Jacob Grimm “*Deutsche Mythologie*,” translated by James Stallybrass Vol 3, 1883, page 1007: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Judaism has devils, but knows nothing of she-devils; all power for good or evil it places in the hands of male beings (page 396). To put it still more generally: gods are all together the older, and a strict monotheism or dualism recognizes gods alone; it is in the mellower fullness of Polytheism that goddesses first emerge. The Teutonic paganism, like others, is fond of female deities and elves: even the Goth. Vaihts (genius) is feminine (page 439). Divine mothers, bright benignant dames, norns, valkyrs, wood-wives, water-maidens, formed a main part of the religion: only kobolds and home-sprites are exclusively male; the very giantess are often lovely in mien and manners, and the world of the dead is ruled by a goddess.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He goes on to describe Grendel’s mother in Beowulf and Devil’s mothers/grandmothers in the KHM.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;His mythology is very worthwhile reading. Luckily, it has been translated into English so it can be read by Americans also. The Stallybrass text are available free online.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The problem in answering the question further is that many people think that that &quot;Satan,&quot; the &quot;Devil,&quot; &quot;Lucifer,&quot; etc., all refer to the same being/idea when they are not. In different times/places characters are replaced. For example, in the Grimms KHM, the character that often appears as the &quot;Teufel&quot; (devil) was at one time prior Donar (Thunar/Thorr). It is Donar who is the god who rules over clouds and rain and when the text describe the Devil arriving with wind and noise, this was at one time how Donar arrived. Time passed and Donar was replaced with the Devil. But elements of wind and noise in the text still point to the older pagan beliefs. This “Devil” here is not necessarily the same being as the Jewish “Statan.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note- it was easier to use the Stallybrass text rather than translate the whole thing myself again" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30502" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="4825" RevisionGUID="569d87e0-e152-4cc4-994c-d412d7820e96" CreationDate="2023-08-16T21:14:11.380" Comment="Proposed by 7106 approved by 53 edit id of 1930" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30503" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10777" RevisionGUID="6ac5e2cb-b4a4-4a0c-a76a-963157e25703" CreationDate="2023-08-17T19:41:46.300" UserId="8513" Text="In 10.349 the word is δρήστειραι “labourers, working-women” (Liddell and Scott); “servants; maids” (Beekes); “workers, servants” (*Oxford Classical Dictionary*). I guess that Wilson’s rationale for using “slaves” in this line is that for the ancient Greek aristocratic audience reading or listening to the *Odyssey*, the relationship between Circe and her working-women would most resemble their own relationship with their household slaves. But for a modern audience, the word “servants” or “maids” would not be strong enough to convey this: when reading these words, we are likely to imagine something more like twentieth-century domestic service, in which the servants were paid a wage and were free to give notice and seek work elsewhere. Wilson uses “slave” to alert the modern reader to the likely nature of the relationship.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In 10.59 the word is κήρυκα “herald, pursuivant, public messenger, envoy” (Liddell and Scott); “herald, messenger” (Beekes); “herald, town crier, ambassador, preacher” (*Oxford*). However, the whole phrase is ἐγὼ κήρυκά τ᾽ ὀπασσάμενος καὶ ἑταῖρον “I took with me a messenger and a comrade”. Wilson has deduced, from the way this is phrased, that the messenger had a lower status than the comrade, otherwise Odysseus would have said “I took with me two comrades”. We can’t be sure that Homer meant the messenger to be a slave rather than, say, a junior but free sailor, but again the word alerts the modern reader to the possibility.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At 10.102 the line is ἄνδρε δύω κρίνας, τρίτατον κήρυχ᾽ ἅμ᾽ ὀπάσσας “I selected two men, and sent a third with them as a messenger”. In this case it is not so clear that there is any distinction of status between the first two men and the third. I guess Wilson used “slave” here for consistency with 10.59.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The question says that “κήρῡκες were moderately important” and this is no doubt the case for diplomatic and military heralds and town criers. But ordinary message-carriers could be slaves, and by the time of Plautus (3rd–2nd century BCE) the “running slave” (*servus currens*) whose attempts to deliver his message are foiled by his own breathlessness, was a stock comic character, for example in *Amphitruo*.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30505" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1385" RevisionGUID="64b46187-7039-4427-8773-5b34d0e3103f" CreationDate="2023-08-20T01:06:30.767" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30506" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10778" RevisionGUID="a0bccfc9-497a-4a40-9574-74e748701aaa" CreationDate="2023-08-21T21:24:44.887" UserId="5013" Text="I will take a stab at this. I think that it could go back to the Norman invasion of England. It is then that French words began to come into English more and more. The nobility (the French Normans) ate “beef” and “pork” (originally French words) while the people (commoners, the native English) raised “cattle” “cows” and “pigs” (English words). The French also had the term Fée/Fay that they brought over which was used for a woman skilled in magic and had other powers. It looks to have been Thomas Mallory who in 1485 first used the term “Morgan Le Fay” for Morgan of the King Arthur cycle. Morgan is often said to be Arthur’s sister.  Images of her are of a tall adult human female.  The terms for the French Fée/Fay and the English, Scottish and Irish “fairy” look to have been used somewhat interchangeably and that is possibly the reason for the confusion.  This looks to be one way that faries came to be “tall characters.” In Ann Grant’s 1811 book “Legends and Superstitions of the Highlanders of Scotland,” she describes a “fairy” in the text. There is no indication of the actual size of her “fairy.” Since her “fairy” is described as holding a knife for his lover, the young girl, it is possible that the arm and the fairy are on the “larger” size of the scale. I would imagine this to be a being of small stature (like a German Elf). In images in Thomas Crofton Corkers 1825 book: “Fairy Legends and Traditions of the South of Ireland,” “faries” are depicted as what modern people might imagine – they look like Disney’s Tinker Bell. Small (on the order of inches), humaniform winged or unwinged creatures. It could be that native UK (Ireland, England and Scotland) (no offence to the Irish who would not like to be considered part of the UK) “fairies” were the “small ones” and the “large ones” came over with the French “wise women” (Fée/Fay) after the invasion. At some point both terms got mixed up. “Fay” does sound very similar to “fairy.” In many any other languages this might not happen. It is difficult to mistake an “elf” for a “wise woman.” Don’t think about Tolkien or his “elves” (tall, human like, immortal beings with pointed ears, but without wings) either. That would just add to the confusion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it not an easy or straight forward question. Some good links from Wikipedia:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Morgan Le Fay][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Faries][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It has even confused modern scholars. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note: “The Hand with the Knife” mentioned below is the Grimm translation of the story in Grant’s 1811 book.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Among other things, it has led Jack Zipes, Professor Emeritus of German and Comparative Literature at the University of Minnesota, to be quoted on the National Endowment for the Humanities web site as writing: “a reader might notice that many of the stories such as “The Hand with the Knife,” “How Some Children Played at Slaughtering,”… have nothing to do with fairies or happy endings. Instead, these are stark narratives about brutal living conditions in the nineteenth century.” This is seems to be not correct.  If the supernatural character in “The Hand with the Knife,” KHM 1812 #8, is not the actual “real life” embodiment of what is in English (Scottish) called a “fairy” in a “Fairy Tale,” then what is? Jacob Grimm translated this text from English into German from a book published by Ann Grant in 1811 titled: “Essays and Superstitions of the Highlanders of Scotland.” The text is in Vol. I on pgs. 285 and 286 of her book. The text begins: “A little girl had been innocently beloved by a fairy, who dwelt in a tomhan near her mother’s habitation.” Grant’s text explicitly describes the character as what the Scottish and/or English call a “fairy.” In German, what the English, Irish and Scottish call a “fairy,” is an “Elf” and Jacob translated the line as: “Aber das Mädchen hatte einen Liebhaber, der war ein Elfe und wohnte nahe an ihrer Mutter Hause in einem Hügel,…” (But the maiden had an admirer, he was an elf and lived near to her mother’s house in a hill,…” In his 2014 translation of the Grimm KHM #8 line, Zipes writes it as: “But the little girl had an admirer who was an elf and lived in a hill near her mother’s house.” Zipes looks to have taken this German “Elf/Elfe” and brought it straight back into English as “elf” without first translating it back into what it originally was in Grants text - a “fairy.” A Scottish tale about a Scottish “fairy” is what the English words “fairy tale” actually describe. One can not get much closer to an authentic “fairy tale” than an actual Scottish tale that includes an actual Scottish “fairy.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Confusion abounds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgan_le_Fay&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairy" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30518" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10781" RevisionGUID="ea4ad9af-c4ab-4932-911b-5b3346430ea3" CreationDate="2023-08-26T18:41:04.223" UserId="10148" Text="In Hesiod's Theogony he mentions a place where the sources and ends of the Earth, Tartarus, Sea and Heaven are located:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; And there, all in their order, are the sources and ends of gloomy earth and misty Tartarus and the unfruitful sea and starry heaven, loathsome and dank, which even the gods abhor. It is a great gulf, and if once a man were within the gates, he would not reach the floor until a whole year had reached its end, but cruel blast upon blast would carry him this way and that. And this marvel is awful even to the deathless gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later he repeats the first lines and states that the titans live beyond this great gulf:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And there, all in their order, are the sources and ends of the dark earth and misty Tartarus and the unfruitful sea and starry heaven, loathsome and dank, which even the gods abhor. And there are shining gates and an immoveable threshold of bronze having unending roots and it is grown of itself.And beyond, away from all the gods, live the Titans, beyond gloomy Chaos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is this great gulf described by Hesiod? I ask because i hadn't read anything about it before&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does it have anything to do with Chaos? I ask this because Hesiod mentions the gloomy Chaos in the last line.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30520" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10781" RevisionGUID="ea4ad9af-c4ab-4932-911b-5b3346430ea3" CreationDate="2023-08-26T18:41:04.223" UserId="10148" Text="What is the great gulf mentioned by Hesiod?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30521" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10781" RevisionGUID="ea4ad9af-c4ab-4932-911b-5b3346430ea3" CreationDate="2023-08-26T18:41:04.223" UserId="10148" Text="|greek|interpretation|titans|european-folklore|hesiod|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30522" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10782" RevisionGUID="b0be23eb-3549-4668-a64b-7ecd4da830e8" CreationDate="2023-08-27T15:26:08.907" UserId="3989" Text="Yes, this &quot;great gulf&quot; (χάσμα μέγ') and *chaos* are one and the same. Gulf, chasm, abyss, void, or gap is an older meaning ([LSJ][1]; [Wiki][2]) for a term that in modern English has come to mean something rather different: the opposite of order. In Hesiod's chaos, indeed, the start and end points of the other realms are said to be &quot;all in their order,&quot; as you quote above (lines [738][3] &amp; [809][4], Evelyn-White trans.).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Chaos [at line 116][5] is listed as the first of four primeval beings. At that point Hesiod has just announced his overall theme by bidding the Muses say *how things (gods, Earth, rivers, etc.) first **came into being*** (εἴπατε δ᾽, ὡς τὰ πρῶτα . . . **γένοντο**, 108). Possibly Hesiod considered some more or less empty space as prerequisite for things' coming into being: After all, a few centuries later, [Parmenides of Elea][6] reasoned his way from the supposed impossibility of void or vacuum to the dismissal of all becoming, change, or motion as illusory. (The famous paradoxes of his pupil [Zeno][7] were offered in support of this conclusion.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dxa%2Fos1&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_(cosmogony)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D729&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D807&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D104&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parmenides&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno_of_Elea" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30524" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10782" RevisionGUID="f951374f-6802-43f6-b160-19094d144c99" CreationDate="2023-08-27T19:42:43.753" UserId="3989" Comment="added 126 characters in body" Text="Yes, this &quot;great gulf&quot; (χάσμα μέγ') and *chaos* are one and the same. Gulf, chasm, abyss, void, or gap is an older meaning ([LSJ][1]; [Wiki][2]) for a term that in modern English has come to mean something rather different: the opposite of order. In Hesiod's chaos, indeed, the start and end points of the other realms are said to be present &quot;all in their order,&quot; as you quote above (lines [738][3] &amp; [809][4], Evelyn-White trans.).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Chaos [at line 116][5] is listed as the first of four primeval beings. At that point Hesiod has just announced his overall theme by bidding the Muses say *how things (gods, Earth, rivers, etc.) first **came into being*** (εἴπατε δ᾽, ὡς τὰ πρῶτα . . . **γένοντο**, 108). Possibly Hesiod considered some more or less empty space as prerequisite for things' coming into being: After all, a few centuries later, [Parmenides of Elea][6] reasoned his way from the supposed impossibility of void or vacuum to the dismissal of all becoming, change, or motion as illusory. (The famous paradoxes of his pupil [Zeno][7] were offered in support of this conclusion.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Norse myth similarly sets its cosmogony within a gap or chasm, Ginnungagap (Prose Edda, Gylfaginning, Chaps. 4-8).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dxa%2Fos1&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_(cosmogony)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D729&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D807&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D104&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parmenides&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno_of_Elea" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30525" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10782" RevisionGUID="f070d45a-3cd1-41e0-9da5-cafb32602a10" CreationDate="2023-08-27T20:07:09.057" UserId="3989" Comment="added 3 characters in body" Text="Yes, this &quot;great gulf&quot; (χάσμα μέγ') and *chaos* are one and the same. Gulf, chasm, abyss, void, or gap is an older meaning ([LSJ][1]; [Wiki][2]) for a term that in modern English has come to mean something rather different: the opposite of order. In Hesiod's chaos, indeed, the start and end points of the other realms are said to be present &quot;all in their order,&quot; as you quote above (lines [738][3] &amp; [809][4], Evelyn-White trans.).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Chaos [at line 116][5] is listed as the first of four primeval beings. At that point Hesiod has just announced his overall theme by bidding the Muses say *how things (gods, Earth, rivers, etc.) first **came into being*** (εἴπατε δ᾽, ὡς τὰ πρῶτα . . . **γένοντο**, 108). Possibly Hesiod considered some more or less empty space as prerequisite for anything's coming into being: After all, a few centuries later, [Parmenides of Elea][6] reasoned his way from the supposed impossibility of void or vacuum to the dismissal of all becoming, change, or motion as illusory. (The famous paradoxes of his pupil [Zeno][7] were offered in support of this conclusion.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Norse myth similarly sets its cosmogony within a gap or chasm, Ginnungagap (Prose Edda, Gylfaginning, Chaps. 4-8).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dxa%2Fos1&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_(cosmogony)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D729&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D807&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0130%3Acard%3D104&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parmenides&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno_of_Elea" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30528" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10783" RevisionGUID="0fab8e44-1dbd-4e22-a935-de102291bdd9" CreationDate="2023-08-29T17:31:34.430" UserId="9925" Text="## Potentially a One-Eyed Monster ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There appears to be a (weakly supported?) theory that a lost Nergal myth depicts him fighting a Cyclops like creature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Quoting directly from [Wikipedia][1]:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Andrew R. George proposes that a myth presently unknown from textual records dealt with Nergal's combat with a one-eyed monster, the igitelû. He notes that Akkadian omen texts from Susa and from the Sealand archives appears to indicate that one-eyed creatures were known as igidalu, igidaru or igitelû, possibly a loanword from Sumerian igi.dili (&quot;one eye&quot;), and that the only god associated with them was Nergal, who in one such omen texts is identified as the slayer of an igitelû.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reference Wikipedia cites is George's [book][2] *Bibliotheca Orientalis* which as a section called *Nergal and the Babylonian Cyclops*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nergal&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/303824582_Nergal_and_the_Babylonian_cyclops" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30530" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10750" RevisionGUID="fbeecc75-f45c-4de5-9af7-ee888d8168bb" CreationDate="2023-08-29T20:57:49.327" UserId="6376" Comment="thanks, appreciations etc are all pure clutter - please do not include them in your posts" Text="&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I remember (and I may be mis-remembering some things) a myth where there was a mother and her three sons doted over her and ran for her every wish. The three sons carried her somewhere and got her there on time and she was so overcome with pride she said something along the lines of &quot; I'm so proud of my sons I wish they could stay like this forever! &quot; and the gods heard her and turned her sons into statues. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I cant remember the myth exactly and I looked through several myths that were similar to no avail. The moral of the story was something like 'careful what you wish for' but I remember it was more deep than that and that's why I wanted to read it again. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30531" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="10750" RevisionGUID="fbeecc75-f45c-4de5-9af7-ee888d8168bb" CreationDate="2023-08-29T20:57:49.327" Comment="Proposed by 6376 approved by 53 edit id of 1931" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30532" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10781" RevisionGUID="1bec88c1-38c3-468b-a21f-009b6b229781" CreationDate="2023-08-29T20:58:03.503" UserId="7106" Comment="use quote format" Text="In Hesiod's Theogony he mentions a place where the sources and ends of the Earth, Tartarus, Sea and Heaven are located:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And there, all in their order, are the sources and ends of gloomy earth and misty Tartarus and the unfruitful sea and starry heaven, loathsome and dank, which even the gods abhor. It is **a great gulf**, and if once a man were within the gates, he would not reach the floor until a whole year had reached its end, but cruel blast upon blast would carry him this way and that. And this marvel is awful even to the deathless gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later he repeats the first lines and states that the titans live beyond this great gulf:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; And there, all in their order, are the sources and ends of the dark earth and misty Tartarus and the unfruitful sea and starry heaven, loathsome and dank, which even the gods abhor. And there are shining gates and an immoveable threshold of bronze having unending roots and it is grown of itself. And beyond, away from all the gods, live the Titans, beyond gloomy Chaos.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What is this great gulf described by Hesiod? I ask because i hadn't read anything about it before&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does it have anything to do with Chaos? I ask this because Hesiod mentions the gloomy Chaos in the last line.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30533" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="10781" RevisionGUID="1bec88c1-38c3-468b-a21f-009b6b229781" CreationDate="2023-08-29T20:58:03.503" Comment="Proposed by 7106 approved by 53 edit id of 1932" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30535" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10784" RevisionGUID="8daa670d-7139-423c-b3c3-97c8e4d38505" CreationDate="2023-09-01T19:49:05.980" UserId="10541" Text="Hera is called &quot;ox-eyed,&quot; and there is [another question here][1] which discusses that. The answer there is that Hera is associated with cows. But there is also a mention of another ox-eyed character in Book 3:&#xD;&#xA; &gt; Speaking so the goddess left in her heart sweet longing &#xD;&#xA; &gt; after her husband of time before, and her city and parents. &#xD;&#xA; &gt; And at once, wrapping herself about in shimmering garments, &#xD;&#xA; &gt; she went forth from the chamber, letting fall a light tear; &#xD;&#xA; &gt; not by herself, since two handmaidens went to attend her, &#xD;&#xA; &gt; Aithre, Pittheus' daughter, and Klymene of the ox eyes. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/532/where-was-hera-called-cow-faced" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30537" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10784" RevisionGUID="8daa670d-7139-423c-b3c3-97c8e4d38505" CreationDate="2023-09-01T19:49:05.980" UserId="10541" Text="What does &quot;ox-eyed&quot; mean in the Iliad?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30538" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10784" RevisionGUID="8daa670d-7139-423c-b3c3-97c8e4d38505" CreationDate="2023-09-01T19:49:05.980" UserId="10541" Text="|iliad|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30541" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10785" RevisionGUID="c7d026f9-d6b0-4f18-adfa-d376e76050a4" CreationDate="2023-09-02T17:32:14.267" UserId="3989" Text="Like most Homeric epithets, it carries a positive connotation: Klymene is being held up to admiration for her soulful brown eyes. And also as with most Homeric epithets, this characteristic is associated with Klymene as much for its metrical convenience for line 3.144 as for its salience in her: pending that epithet, the hexameter line lacked three final syllables, the first short and the second long, and βοῶπις fit that bill. Temptations to read a lot more into it, such as a special relation with the like-epitheted Hera, are probably best resisted.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Note that the Greek root rendered as *ox* in translation is not specific to a castrated male, as that English word sometimes is: βοῦς can be cow, bull, or steer indifferently." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30543" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10786" RevisionGUID="0745d783-058d-4ca3-8647-9a91d79a6701" CreationDate="2023-09-03T20:34:53.117" UserId="10545" Text="Look up the elements of the name Rumpelstiltskin in Old English/ Norse: Rumpel/ Stilt/ Skin.&#xD;&#xA;Rumpel = to wrinkle or fold back&#xD;&#xA;Stilt = stick, slang for penis&#xD;&#xA;Skin = skin&#xD;&#xA;Rumpelstiltskin is a man who, as the maid reports, has the foreskin of his penis wrinkled/ folded back. &#xD;&#xA;How did the maid observe this? Perhaps &quot;riding the spoon&quot; is a metaphor for sexual activity. Even now, when a man is positioned behind the woman, it may be called spoons.&#xD;&#xA;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoons_sex_position" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30545" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10787" RevisionGUID="9372f33f-d62e-42f8-b467-621f4ae8e7f3" CreationDate="2023-09-05T23:17:19.943" UserId="3989" Text="The *Odyssey* is a *nostos,* a tale of a hero's homecoming from the great war. In its opening lines, it alludes to its own membership in this epic subgenre, and even uses the expression *nostimon ēmar,* homecoming-day, as a synecdoche for life itself&amp;mdash;what the sun-god took away from Odysseus' last surviving companions (1.11-12, 9). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Such homecomings, then as now, require change of mindset as well of place.  Odysseus must learn to be something other than a warrior. Circe confronts him with this challenge when he proposes to fight off Scylla:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;You rash man, do the works of war concern you again, &lt;br&gt; And toil? Will you not yield to the immortal gods? (12.116-17, Cook trans.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He is slow to learn: despite this reproof, he dons his war-gear as he approaches Scylla's lair (12.226-31).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Cicones episode is present in part to show just how far he has yet to go in this mental journey, when he first sails from Troy. Like the Trojan War itself, it is a Pyrrhic military victory whereby more is lost than won. The episode ends with the first instance of a mournful two-line formula that repeats, in whole or in part, after each of the early adventures Odysseus recounts in Book 9:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Then we sailed on further, grieving in our hearts,&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Glad to escape death, having lost our dear companions. (9.62-63, 105, 565-66)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The role of the raider, the pirate&amp;mdash;to which Odysseus seems frankly to confess in answer to the cyclops' question (9.252-55, 263-66)&amp;mdash;no longer answers. But it is in that role, or that of mobster, that he receives the wonderful wine and other treasures from Maron the priest, in Ismaros, the Cicones' city. As Odysseus tells it, Maron gives out of gratitude for protection (9.196-211). But from what or whom did he *need* protection while the Ithacan fleet was there? Nice temple you got there&amp;mdash;shame if something was to happen to it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As to the captive Ismaran women, they most likely got left behind in the rout (9.59), as the Ithacans barely made their escape by sea. They would hardly have been kept confined on board undecked ships during the debauchery that the more warlike Cicones interrupted. Nor, had they been taken off their own land, would they have been kept around as mouths to feed while the men were starving on Thrinacia. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The key alternative role that Odysseus has to learn is that of guest. Homeric hospitality or *xenía* is the principal alternative to war, as a basis for relationships connecting the petty kingdoms into which Homeric Greece is divided. Of all the adventures that he undergoes on his way from Troy home to Ithaca, this the first, in the role of raider, nets him no lasting profit, nor yet does he bring home any treasure from Troy; but at his last stop, as honored guest of the Phaeacians, he gains great treasure as well as a suddenly easy ride home." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30547" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10788" RevisionGUID="f202e970-5bab-47b1-9850-f8e96695e123" CreationDate="2023-09-06T18:10:02.530" UserId="188" Text="It's obvious why  is [catamite](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/catamite), but not how the Etruscans got it from &quot;Gadymedes&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is it just &quot;We know they're the same character / name, but we dunno how the Etruscans got there&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30549" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10788" RevisionGUID="f202e970-5bab-47b1-9850-f8e96695e123" CreationDate="2023-09-06T18:10:02.530" UserId="188" Text="How is , a.k.a Catamite, the Etruscan form of Gadymedes?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30550" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10788" RevisionGUID="f202e970-5bab-47b1-9850-f8e96695e123" CreationDate="2023-09-06T18:10:02.530" UserId="188" Text="|greek|comparative|roman|etymology|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30558" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10791" RevisionGUID="9a88a535-5235-4248-b39b-c2248e12fd43" CreationDate="2023-09-08T21:24:01.743" UserId="9851" Text="**WARNING! Spoilers ahead for *Blue Exorcist* and *The 8th Night***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, I recently watched a recap of a Korean Mystery-Thriller film called &quot;[The 8th Night][1]&quot;. The basic premise is that a young monk and an exorcist must hunt down one of two malevolent eyes that Buddha once extracted from a terrible monster from Hell before sealing them away, before the eye can possess 7 people within 7 days and reunite with the other eye on the 8th, causing the monster's power to reawaken and threaten the world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Upon watching the recap, I found it eerily similar to the events of The Impure King Arc from the anime *[Blue Exorcist][2]*. In this storyline, Rin Okumura (the series' protagonist and Half-Demon son of Satan), must stop an evil former exorcist named &quot;Saburota Todo&quot; from restoring a powerful Demon of Rot called &quot;[The Impure King][3]&quot; by returning his two eyes (later revealed to be the two halves of his heart) that were hidden by Buddhist monks after The Demon was defeated by one of their predecessors. As the one who now wields that legendary monk's sword, Rin is naturally the one who ends up having to stop The Impure King.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, given the remarkable similarities between these stories, I found myself wondering if these stories are inspired by some tale in mythology or literature. But despite having studied Asian religion for a semester and looking all over the internet for answers, I still came up blank. So, is there anyone who can shed some light on this? Is there something from (I assume Asian) mythology that these stories are inspired by, or is it just an unbelievable coincidence?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_8th_Night&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://aonoexorcist.fandom.com/wiki/Blue_Exorcist&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://aonoexorcist.fandom.com/wiki/Impure_King" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30560" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10791" RevisionGUID="9a88a535-5235-4248-b39b-c2248e12fd43" CreationDate="2023-09-08T21:24:01.743" UserId="9851" Text="Was there a Mythological Being Who had His Eyes Removed and Separated?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30561" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10791" RevisionGUID="9a88a535-5235-4248-b39b-c2248e12fd43" CreationDate="2023-09-08T21:24:01.743" UserId="9851" Text="|comparative|demons|apocalypse|buddhist|evil|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30562" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3194" RevisionGUID="37f16907-1f35-4550-9d56-e27668e1ece1" CreationDate="2023-09-09T00:05:40.687" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30564" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="10768" RevisionGUID="707e3839-fe1c-4d5d-93a4-582fdc403a6c" CreationDate="2023-09-09T20:41:17.713" UserId="742" Comment="133" />
  <row Id="30565" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="5112" RevisionGUID="be771797-40a5-48c4-b039-e3d5e5d5b18c" CreationDate="2023-09-10T21:04:39.657" UserId="5294" Comment="edited tags" Text="|mythical-creatures|folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30570" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10792" RevisionGUID="7a0b5d99-124f-4dcb-9cf8-265b75afbb41" CreationDate="2023-09-11T15:37:16.180" UserId="6739" Text="I have found the answer to this question. On page 175 of the book The Gods of the Egyptians, or Studies in Egyptian Mythology Vol. 1, by E.A. Wallis Budge on page 175: šꜥt n sbꜣw () &quot;The Book of the Pylons.&quot; The conventional anglicization: Shat en Sbau." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30572" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10793" RevisionGUID="26787be7-12e0-418f-a98c-b6657225f20b" CreationDate="2023-09-11T16:44:03.177" UserId="6739" Text="The closest thing I can think of is the eye of Horus, from Egyptian mythology. Horus' (ḥr.w &quot;&quot;) eye, or both eyes, were torn out by Set (swtẖ &quot;&quot;). The eye or eyes were either repaired by Thoth (ḏḥwtj &quot;&quot;) or his mother, Isis (ꜣst ().&#xD;&#xA;Info can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_Horus&#xD;&#xA;As a side note: Rin Okumura may give a hint leading to it being inspired by Egyptian mythology, because in ancient Egyptian rn &quot;&quot;, pronounced ren means &quot;name.&quot;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30575" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10792" RevisionGUID="7de45505-1124-4173-927a-b9b41f48d622" CreationDate="2023-09-13T16:48:02.027" UserId="6739" Comment="added 1 character in body" Text="I have found the answer to this question. On page 175 of the book The Gods of the Egyptians, or Studies in Egyptian Mythology Vol. 1, by E.A. Wallis Budge on page 175: šꜥt n sbꜣw () &quot;The Book of the Pylons.&quot; The conventional anglicization: Shat en Sebau." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30576" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10794" RevisionGUID="8722f0b5-c494-4ce7-b20f-75879b81dbe8" CreationDate="2023-09-13T21:17:27.120" UserId="8896" Text="God curses Lilith for her defiance in the Garden of Eden, and as such, Hebraic tradition depicts her as a temptress and slayer of children.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She eventually marries Asmodeus, himself a tempter and a demon of lust, and together they have demonic offspring to spread chaos throughout the world. Of those children, 100 of them must perish each day to satisfy Lilith's pact with God and the angels Senoy, Sansenoy, and Semangelof, who were tasked with bringing her back to Eden.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wouldn't Lilith run out of offspring to have to kill eventually and God's punishment obsolete? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30578" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10794" RevisionGUID="8722f0b5-c494-4ce7-b20f-75879b81dbe8" CreationDate="2023-09-13T21:17:27.120" UserId="8896" Text="Would Lilith's pact with God be obsolete?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30579" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10794" RevisionGUID="8722f0b5-c494-4ce7-b20f-75879b81dbe8" CreationDate="2023-09-13T21:17:27.120" UserId="8896" Text="|bible|abrahamic-religions|demons|judaism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30580" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10598" RevisionGUID="2df37d7e-8589-412f-a157-59daa3eae403" CreationDate="2023-09-13T23:01:38.570" UserId="3315" Comment="tags edited" Text="I've been playing a game that uses a lot of mythological creatures, vampires, sphinxes, kitsune, tengu, minotaurs, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But then they used Lorialets. The only easy source on it that cites things, is [a Wikimonde article](https://plus.wikimonde.com/wiki/Lorialet), whatever that is, which itself cites [this](https://www.erudit.org/fr/revues/etudfr/1996-v32-n1-etudfr1081/036013ar.pdf) scholarly-looking French PDF about Gargantua and Pantagruel? Can't find &quot;Lorialet&quot; in there?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Other [sources](https://writinginmargins.weebly.com/home/lorialets-and-mooncalves), say that lorialets come from the anonymous chapbooks that were the inspiration for the more famous [Gargantua and Pantagruel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gargantua_and_Pantagruel) of François Rabelais.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there page-number-and-line style confirmation that *that* fictional work was the origin of lorialets? Or is there an even older source?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30581" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="10598" RevisionGUID="2df37d7e-8589-412f-a157-59daa3eae403" CreationDate="2023-09-13T23:01:38.570" UserId="3315" Comment="tags edited" Text="|source-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30582" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="10598" RevisionGUID="2df37d7e-8589-412f-a157-59daa3eae403" CreationDate="2023-09-13T23:01:38.570" Comment="Proposed by 3315 approved by 188 edit id of 1937" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30583" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10772" RevisionGUID="bc73ddf1-0e84-4700-afd5-f8098f849d18" CreationDate="2023-09-15T04:09:24.000" UserId="3530" Comment="New information; acknowledge a recent informative answer" Text="Note: This was posted before Brian Donovan added his informative answer of 5 September. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I posted the original question a few years ago. In the meantime I have thought and read about it further in the light of the Comments and Answer I received and now suggest the following partial answers, subject to what anyone else may make of this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Why Homer includes this incident, when most readers find it less interesting and appealing than Odysseus' later adventures with the Cyclops, Lotus Eaters, Circe turning his men into pigs, the ghosts of Hades etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Modern stories of the supernatural tend to begin in ordinary reality to establish credibility before introducing the more creepy or fantastical elements. In the same way, Odysseus begins his journey with a raid of the type that probably did occur in those days, representing a local continuation of the Trojan War, to anchor his narrative in reality, before getting on to the more unlikely but more entertaining encounters with magic and monsters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It also reminds us of the War the Greeks have been fighting for the past decade, perhaps telling us that they are still in a violent, predatory, warlike mentality.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, it demonstrates a theme that will recur later in the stories of the bag of winds and Helios's cattle, that Odysseus has wiser judgment than his men (in this case wanting to sail away quickly with their loot before the Cicones of the rest of that country can do anything about it) but cannot always persuade his men to do the sensible thing. (They are not like a modern professional army subject to military discipline; even Odysseus' orders are not always obeyed.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. How Odysseus conquers Ismaros so easily. Most likely by striking quickly and catching the Cicones of Ismaros by surprise. Greek 50 oared ships of the time were suited to making sudden surprise attacks. Having both sails and oars for propulsion, if the wind was favourable they could approach quickly, and did not have to find a harbour to land but could drive the front part of the ship on to a beach and the warriors jump straight out on to the sand. As, Book 13 lines 114 - 116, the Phaeacians, landing, with more peaceful intent, on Ithaca:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;'...Their arms were pulling at top speed; the ship was travelling so fast that when she reached dry land, she beached for half her length.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. Why Odysseus attacks Ismaros. From various other references in the Odyssey e.g. the Cretan 'cover' story that Odysseus tells Eumeus in Book 14, raiding across the seas for plunder was a common and socially acceptable way to gain wealth. However, I confess I am a little puzzled by the contrast between this and the idealisation of hospitality 'xenia' and mutual duties between travellers and hosts in the rest of the poem. Was the rule to be generous and respectful to your host/guest, except when you decided to kill them?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4 a. Fate of the women of Ismaros enslaved by Odysseus and his men; no one, not even feminist commentators, asks whether Odysseus selects one of these women for himself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4 b. Trojan women slaves. While not explicitly stated in the Odyssey, it is surely implied that there will be some on Odysseus' ships. Indeed, in Book 3 lines 152-3, Nestor describes the departure of the victorious Greeks, including Odysseus, from Troy:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;'...dragged our ships down to the sea piled high with loot and women'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These must be women from Troy and other towns sacked by the Greeks during the War, when by the custom, however wrong it seems to us, but accepted as the way of the World back then, in a war the losers' women became the property of the winners.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By another tradition, cited by Euripides in 'The Trojan Women' and 'Hecuba', Hecuba Queen of Troy became a slave of Odysseus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As to the subsequent fate of these unlucky women, I have come across the argument from a respected Professor of Classics, that, treating the Odyssey as the fiction that it mostly must be, all that exists of the characters is what is said about them in the text, and characters who are not mentioned do not exist. Therefore, since Homer, not wanting to be distracted from the primary narrative of the poem, does not mention them again, it is idle to speculate on the subsequent fate of these women as though they were real people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I accept that as true up to a point.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, some things may not be stated because to the original audience they would have been so obvious as to be implied. As in 19th Century literature, if a character is described as wealthy and owning a large house, the audience would have taken it to be implied that they would have servants.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, if we are considering a text not just as literature but as historical evidence of how things were at the time it was created, we might consider what is left out as well as what is included.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, we can assume, as Homer's audience would surely have assumed, that things stated elsewhere in the Iliad and Odyssey about the position of women enslaved in wars would probably have applied to them. As in the simile of the hysterically sobbing woman in an unidentified conquered town near the end of Book 8 of the Odyssey, whose husband has just been killed fighting the invaders, who is not even allowed time to cry over his body but beaten to make her get up so she can be immediately dragged off into slavery, the process of capture was heartbreakingly ruthless and traumatic. And Nestor's promise to the Greek army in Book 2 of the Iliad that when they win the War they will all get a Trojan's wife to sleep with. Thus, these women, if young and attractive, can all expect to be slept with by a Greek, whether they consent or not." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30584" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10772" RevisionGUID="5ceba942-dc24-49c6-963b-b34664429556" CreationDate="2023-09-15T04:22:16.333" UserId="3530" Comment="On re-reading, to shorten text in a few cases, explain more clearly in others." Text="Note: This was posted before Brian Donovan added his informative answer of 5 September. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I posted the original question a few years ago. In the meantime I have thought and read about it further in the light of the Comments I received and now suggest the following partial answers, subject to what anyone else may make of this.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. Why Homer includes this incident, when most readers find it less interesting and appealing than Odysseus' later adventures with the Cyclops, Lotus Eaters, Circe turning his men into pigs, the ghosts of Hades etc. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Modern stories of the supernatural tend to begin in ordinary reality to establish credibility before introducing the more creepy or fantastical elements. In the same way, Odysseus begins his journey with a raid of the type that probably did occur in those days, representing a local continuation of the Trojan War, to anchor his narrative in reality, before getting on to the more unlikely but more entertaining encounters with magic and monsters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It also reminds us of the War the Greeks have been fighting for the past decade, perhaps telling us that they are still in a violent, predatory, warlike mentality.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, it demonstrates a theme that will recur later in the stories of the bag of winds and Helios's cattle, that Odysseus is wiser than his men (in this case wanting to sail away quickly with their loot before the Cicones of the rest of that country can do anything about it) but cannot always persuade his men to do the wise thing. (They are not like a modern professional army subject to military discipline; even Odysseus' orders are not always obeyed.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. How Odysseus conquers Ismaros so easily. Most likely by striking quickly and catching the Cicones of Ismaros by surprise. Greek 50 oared ships of the time were suited to making sudden surprise attacks. Having both sails and oars for propulsion, if the wind was favourable they could approach quickly, and did not have to find a harbour to land but could drive the front part of the ship on to a beach and the warriors jump straight out on to the sand. As, Book 13 lines 114 - 116, the Phaeacians, landing, with more peaceful intent, on Ithaca:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;'...Their arms were pulling at top speed; the ship was travelling so fast that when she reached dry land, she beached for half her length.'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. Why Odysseus attacks Ismaros. From various other references in the Odyssey e.g. the Cretan 'cover' story that Odysseus tells Eumeus in Book 14, raiding across the seas for plunder was a common and socially acceptable way to gain wealth. However, I confess I am a little puzzled by the contrast between this and the idealisation of hospitality 'xenia' and mutual duties between travellers and hosts in the rest of the poem. Was the rule to be generous and respectful to strangers, except when you decided to rob and kill them?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4 a. Fate of the women of Ismaros enslaved by Odysseus and his men; no one, not even modern feminist influenced commentators, asks whether Odysseus selects one of these women for himself.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4 b. Trojan women slaves. While not explicitly stated in the Odyssey, it is surely implied that there will be some on Odysseus' ships. Indeed, in Book 3 lines 152-3, Nestor describes the departure of the victorious Greeks, including Odysseus, from Troy:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;'...dragged our ships down to the sea piled high with loot and women'&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These must be women from Troy and other towns sacked by the Greeks during the War, when by the custom, however wrong it seems to us, but accepted as the way of the World back then, in a war the losers' wives, daughters and concubines became the property of the winners.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By another tradition, cited by Euripides in 'The Trojan Women' and 'Hecuba', Hecuba Queen of Troy became a slave of Odysseus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As to the subsequent fate of these unlucky women, I have come across the argument from a respected Professor of Classics, that, treating the Odyssey as the fiction that it mostly must be, all that exists of the characters is what is said about them in the text, and characters who are not mentioned in a sense do not exist. Therefore, since Homer, not wanting to be distracted from the primary narrative of the poem, does not mention them again, it is idle to speculate on the subsequent fate of these women as though they were real people.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I accept that as true up to a point.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, some things may not be stated because to the original audience they would have been so obvious as to be implied. As in 19th Century literature, if a character is described as wealthy and owning a large house, the audience would have taken it to be implied that they would have servants.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also, if we are considering a text not just as literature but as historical evidence of how things were at the time it was created, we might consider what is left out as well as what is included.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We can assume, as Homer's audience would surely have assumed, that things stated elsewhere in the Iliad and Odyssey about the position of women enslaved in wars would probably have applied to them. As in the simile of the hysterically sobbing woman in an unidentified conquered town near the end of Book 8 of the Odyssey, whose husband has just been killed fighting the invaders, and she is not even allowed time to cry over his body but beaten to make her get up so she can be immediately dragged off into slavery, the process of capture was heartbreakingly ruthless and traumatic. And Nestor's promise to the Greek army in Book 2 of the Iliad that when they win the War they will all get a Trojan's wife to sleep with. Thus, these women, if young and attractive, can all expect to be slept with by a Greek, whether they consent or not." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30585" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10795" RevisionGUID="6222ede9-b37f-4c8f-b94e-e0ef4f2178ba" CreationDate="2023-09-15T05:28:14.923" UserId="10568" Text="The myth you're referring to sounds like the Greek myth of Niobe, a tale from Greek mythology that serves as a cautionary tale about hubris and the consequences of excessive pride.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the myth, Niobe was a queen of Thebes who had fourteen children, seven sons, and seven daughters. She boasted about her many children and compared herself favorably to the goddess Leto, who had only two children, Apollo and Artemis. Niobe's pride and arrogance led her to claim that she was superior to Leto.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Upon hearing Niobe's arrogant remarks, Apollo and Artemis, the twin children of Leto, were angered and sought revenge. They descended from Mount Olympus and killed all of Niobe's children, causing her immense grief. In her sorrow, Niobe was turned into a weeping stone statue by the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The moral of the story is indeed a cautionary one, emphasizing the consequences of excessive pride and the importance of humility. It's a classic example of Greek mythology's exploration of human flaws and the role of the gods in human affairs." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30587" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10796" RevisionGUID="91882016-4495-43b6-a1c1-8da7d20ef4d8" CreationDate="2023-09-15T05:44:37.760" UserId="10568" Text="So, the idea of many fairies being small or tiny can be traced back to the writings of folks like Shakespeare and Drayton in the medieval and Renaissance periods. In their works, fairies like Puck were often portrayed as these little, mischievous beings.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for pinpointing the exact moment when many kinds of fairies shrank down, it's a bit like chasing fireflies in the dark. There isn't one single origin point. The concept gradually evolved and gained popularity over time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now, it's important to note that fairy folklore isn't a one-size-fits-all deal. Different cultures and regions had their own unique takes on fairy beings, and not all of them were depicted as small. So, it's more about the collective influence of various literary works, art, and cultural interpretations that led to the widespread image of tiny fairies in popular culture." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30593" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="10561" RevisionGUID="b1c12a4a-d593-4339-aab6-4b6ee51352b9" CreationDate="2023-09-16T19:04:01.017" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30594" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10798" RevisionGUID="d1b600db-0d69-4547-9e64-d8dfbb2d6411" CreationDate="2023-09-17T07:03:18.483" UserId="3530" Text="In the Iliad, Achilles gives his friend Patroclus an elaborate funeral, involving the sacrifice of various animals, including 2 of Patroclus own dogs (presumably so they can be with him in the afterlife?) and also 12 young Trojan men whom he recently captured in battle, killed by cutting their throats.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why does Achilles do this?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While the funeral is described at length, the sacrifice of the 12 young Trojan men is mentioned only briefly. We are not told their reactions as they have to wait to be killed one by one, by a method that will not kill them instantly but will lead to death quite quickly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Killing them could perhaps be just a way to avenge the death of Patroclus, except Achilles has already done that in battle many times over.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Animals are often sacrificed to the gods in that World, often food animals such as cattle and sheep, probably with some sense of feeding the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Human sacrifice, according to the myths and I think archaeology, was much less common but unfortunately did occur. While not mentioned by Homer, Agamemnon is usually said to have sacrificed his daughter Iphigenia for divine favour to obtain a favourable wind to take his fleet to Troy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After the death of Achilles and the fall of Troy, when the Greeks share out the city's women and girls among themselves as slaves, they sacrifice the Trojan Princess Polyxena on Achilles' grave so that in a sense he can have one too.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But is there any sense in which Patroclus spirit or anyone else benefits from the sacrifice of the Trojans at his funeral?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30596" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10798" RevisionGUID="d1b600db-0d69-4547-9e64-d8dfbb2d6411" CreationDate="2023-09-17T07:03:18.483" UserId="3530" Text="Why does Achilles sacrifice 12 Trojan men on Patroclus' funeral pyre? Will this benefit Patroclus in the afterlife? (Illiad Book 23)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30597" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10798" RevisionGUID="d1b600db-0d69-4547-9e64-d8dfbb2d6411" CreationDate="2023-09-17T07:03:18.483" UserId="3530" Text="|greek|iliad|sacrifice|achilles|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30598" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="10768" RevisionGUID="da819047-10a7-4f9e-a9f9-34772119a0ce" CreationDate="2023-09-17T22:05:15.747" UserId="-1" Comment="133" />
  <row Id="30601" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6144" RevisionGUID="d24e811e-ab2a-4ec3-8808-9e61e89f9427" CreationDate="2023-09-18T06:03:05.367" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30603" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10798" RevisionGUID="27cced72-833c-4257-9620-3e0a488f4abf" CreationDate="2023-09-19T14:46:35.290" UserId="3530" Comment="added 224 characters in body" Text="In the Iliad, Achilles gives his friend Patroclus an elaborate funeral, involving the sacrifice of various animals, including 2 of Patroclus own dogs (presumably so they can be with him in the afterlife?) and also 12 young Trojan men whom he recently captured in battle, killed by cutting their throats.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Why does Achilles do this?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While the funeral is described at length, the sacrifice of the 12 young Trojan men is mentioned only briefly. We are not told their reactions as they have to wait to be killed one by one, by a method that will not kill them instantly but will lead to death quite quickly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Killing them could perhaps be just a way to avenge the death of Patroclus, except Achilles has already done that in battle many times over.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Animals are often sacrificed to the gods in that World, often food animals such as cattle and sheep, probably with some sense of feeding the gods.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Human sacrifice, according to the myths and I think archaeology, was much less common but unfortunately did occur. While not mentioned by Homer, Agamemnon is usually said to have sacrificed his daughter Iphigenia for divine favour to obtain a favourable wind to take his fleet to Troy. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;After the death of Achilles and the fall of Troy, when the Greeks share out the city's women and girls among themselves as slaves, they sacrifice the Trojan Princess Polyxena on Achilles' grave so that in a sense he can have one too.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But is there any sense in which Patroclus spirit or anyone else benefits from the sacrifice of the Trojans at his funeral?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;P.S. There is a very good answer to this question by Yannis in the Comments below. That may well be all we need to know, but if anyone else can think of anything else they want to add, you are of course welcome to do so." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30606" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="10512" RevisionGUID="65c0eb72-f17e-43ce-9b95-6e5bef0f6494" CreationDate="2023-09-21T18:40:52.807" UserId="9346" Comment="134" />
  <row Id="30616" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6316" RevisionGUID="76a8c305-b5fc-43e5-9d28-8044c67b8ac9" CreationDate="2023-09-27T23:02:15.200" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30617" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10803" RevisionGUID="0a17da5d-70c3-4ed4-822f-6987150884b3" CreationDate="2023-09-28T17:11:19.173" UserId="6739" Text="After much research, I am asking for help with this matter. I can find no reverse translation for the &quot;Book of Two Ways.&quot; Is it like the &quot;Book of the Dead,&quot; a modern convenience name for this set of texts, which it's original name wasn't discovered until more recently (rw nw prt m hrw 'Utterances of Coming Forth in the Day’) ? Or is there no known name for it? I have read that it is also called the “Guide to the Ways of Rostau”. If anyone knows the original Egyptian name for either of these two naming conceits and could share them, I would be grateful." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30619" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10803" RevisionGUID="0a17da5d-70c3-4ed4-822f-6987150884b3" CreationDate="2023-09-28T17:11:19.173" UserId="6739" Text="What is the original ancient Egyptian names for the &quot;Book of Two Ways&quot;?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30620" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10803" RevisionGUID="0a17da5d-70c3-4ed4-822f-6987150884b3" CreationDate="2023-09-28T17:11:19.173" UserId="6739" Text="|egyptian|afterlife|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30621" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3017" RevisionGUID="2197550c-0462-48be-aee4-d0b0e67909ca" CreationDate="2023-09-28T18:02:10.297" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30622" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10803" RevisionGUID="1ad2d51e-2bd4-446d-a474-d1431980867b" CreationDate="2023-09-29T09:24:37.290" UserId="6920" Comment="grammar and punctuation" Text="After much research, I am asking for help with this matter. I can find no reverse translation for the &quot;Book of Two Ways.&quot; Is it like the &quot;Book of the Dead,&quot; a modern convenience name for this set of texts, when its original name wasn't discovered until more recently (rw nw prt m hrw 'Utterances of Coming Forth in the Day’) ? Or is there no known name for it? I have read that it is also called the “Guide to the Ways of Rostau”. If anyone knows the original Egyptian name for either of these two naming conceits and could share them, I would be grateful." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30623" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="10803" RevisionGUID="1ad2d51e-2bd4-446d-a474-d1431980867b" CreationDate="2023-09-29T09:24:37.290" Comment="Proposed by 6920 approved by 53 edit id of 1938" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30624" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="10512" RevisionGUID="4bb3124f-428b-440d-9be0-57ae84d35ea2" CreationDate="2023-09-29T20:00:50.197" UserId="-1" Comment="134" />
  <row Id="30625" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10804" RevisionGUID="455e4e67-18ce-454b-8d2e-60ec3c0ae2dc" CreationDate="2023-09-29T21:49:55.843" UserId="5013" Text="There is a lot of detail in that question. Several text come to mind that have one or more of the details, but not exactly all of them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#1. Grimms &quot;The Juniper Tree&quot; The stepmother lets a heavy lid fall on her stepson's head, cutting it off. She sets up the body so that the sister thinks she is to blame. Stepmother cooks the body and blood of the son and serves it to the biological father who eagerly eats it. (In a nutshell). - 1 kid, not 2.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;#2. The Wayland Smith text from the Elder Edda. The king captures Volundar (Wayland), cuts his hamstrings so he can't walk and imprisons him on an island where he makes jewels for the king. Volundar revenge is that he lures the kings 2 sons to him with the promise of gold and jewels and tells them to come in secret. He also opens a chest with a big heavy lid on it (this is where the Grimm KHM text might have come from) and lets the lid fall cutting the boys heads off. He skins the skulls, throws their bodies under the quenching trough and makes gobblets out of the skulls and gives them to the king to drink out of. He takes their eyes and makes jewels out of them for the kings wife. He then lures the kings daughter to him, gives her a sleeping potion, rapes and impregnates her and lets her go again. The king is meanwhile wondering where his sons are. Volundar ends up telling him all of it and getting his revenge. He takes wings he has made and flys away.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These Norse had some really wild stories 1000+ years ago.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So one can see, there are several elements here. The king does not eat his children, but he drinks wine from their skulls, and there are 2 children who are killed. The father in &quot;The Juniper Tree&quot; also unknowingly eats his son, but only 1 child, not both.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30627" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10805" RevisionGUID="fe243304-a316-4215-be52-1805741c186d" CreationDate="2023-09-30T02:32:02.913" UserId="8708" Text="Robert Graves phrases her oracle to Aegeus as follows:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Oracle warned him not to untie the of mouth his bulging wine-skin&#xD;&#xA;&gt; until he reached the highest point of Athens, lest he one day die of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; grief&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Many other modern retellings mention dying of grief in the prophecy as well, but I haven't found it in Grave's cited sources&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Euripides' Medea it only says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; AEGEUS: He told me this: “Don’t untie the wineskin’s foot. . .” &#xD;&#xA;&gt; MEDEA: Until when? Until you do what or reach what country? &#xD;&#xA;&gt; AEGEUS: “. . .until you come back to your hearth and home.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;No mention that he would die of grief&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Plutarch life of Theseus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Loose not the wine-skin's jutting neck, great chief of the people,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Until thou shalt have come once more to the city of Athens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;No mention that he would die of grief&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Pseudo-Apollodorus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The bulging mouth of the wineskin, O best of men, loose not until thou&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hast reached the height of Athens.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;No mention that he would die of grief&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia even attributes the &quot;die of grief&quot; version to Pseudo-Apollodorus and Plutarch Life of Theseus, but as we have established, neither mentioned it in their versions of the prophecy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The only sources I wasn't able to find in English were the Scholia on Euripides' Medea and Tzetzes on Lycophron, do either of them have the Pythia mention dying of grief in the prophecy?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Does any ancient source say the Pythia warned Aegeus he would die of grief, or is this purely a modern invention?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30629" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10805" RevisionGUID="fe243304-a316-4215-be52-1805741c186d" CreationDate="2023-09-30T02:32:02.913" UserId="8708" Text="Did the Pythia tell Aegeus he would die of grief?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30630" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10805" RevisionGUID="fe243304-a316-4215-be52-1805741c186d" CreationDate="2023-09-30T02:32:02.913" UserId="8708" Text="|greek|source-request|theseus|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30631" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5857" RevisionGUID="fa93c27f-564f-49f6-b1ab-7b951d858cec" CreationDate="2023-09-30T09:05:55.660" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30632" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10805" RevisionGUID="dae1ae02-1af5-408c-b10a-bca3d531f968" CreationDate="2023-09-30T17:24:41.390" UserId="8708" Comment="edited title" Text="What source says the Pythia warned Aegeus he would die of grief?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30633" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10806" RevisionGUID="8d68dbad-0d80-4e15-a951-537ae1e955a2" CreationDate="2023-09-30T17:51:57.210" UserId="53" Text="For questions regarding the mythology that drives funerary practices.  &#xD;&#xA;For any part of the world." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30635" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10806" RevisionGUID="8d68dbad-0d80-4e15-a951-537ae1e955a2" CreationDate="2023-09-30T17:51:57.210" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30636" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10807" RevisionGUID="2920c416-876f-4461-a3e3-78c81cedb6b9" CreationDate="2023-09-30T17:51:57.210" UserId="53" Text="For questions regarding the mythology that drives funerary practices." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30638" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10807" RevisionGUID="2920c416-876f-4461-a3e3-78c81cedb6b9" CreationDate="2023-09-30T17:51:57.210" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30639" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10808" RevisionGUID="9d6a96f5-4385-423f-a9d5-8ad8aee55126" CreationDate="2023-09-30T17:55:31.027" UserId="53" Text="For myths specifically from the country of Italy.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See also [tag:roman] for myths from the Roman Empire." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30641" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10808" RevisionGUID="9d6a96f5-4385-423f-a9d5-8ad8aee55126" CreationDate="2023-09-30T17:55:31.027" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30642" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10809" RevisionGUID="b643c72d-1c76-4202-952b-04c2503619d6" CreationDate="2023-09-30T17:55:31.027" UserId="53" Text="For myths specifically from the country of Italy. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30644" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10809" RevisionGUID="b643c72d-1c76-4202-952b-04c2503619d6" CreationDate="2023-09-30T17:55:31.027" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30645" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10810" RevisionGUID="be309fed-4802-4704-9a03-c0ee86050a9f" CreationDate="2023-10-02T05:43:31.423" UserId="2682" Text="**No**, they do not. As far as ancient sources go, none of these is explicitly mentioned as having such a birth-date. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The earliest source I can find making this claim in reference to Mithras goes back to 1795, in *L'origine de tous les cultes, ou la réligion universelle*, wherein Charles-François Dupuis also interprets Chapter 22 of Firmicus Maternus's book *On the Error of the Profane Religions* in such a manner as to give us the only ancient allusion to a death and resurrection of this god. (As we shall note later, though, Maternus does not name Mithras, or any other deity, for that matter, in said chapter. See below, under the section `Origins: Coming Up with a Death Scene for Mithras`.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The birthday information is acquired by conflating Mithras with the official Roman god of the sun, in which methodology certain scholars would come to follow Dupuis. Notable among them is Franz Cumont, since he is credited with having founded modern Mithraic studies, although at present day (about a hundred years following the initial release of Cumont's works) certain other academics have their arguments *against* the connection of the date with Mithras. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for Dionysus, I think that the forensic thread also leads back to Dupuis's work *L'origine*, and the rather particular interpretation he makes therein of a passage from Book 1 of Macrobius' *Saturnalia*. Starting at least around the middle of the 1800s, literature focused on comparing Christianity with other religions and their sacred stories would become a veritable genre produced in Western Europe and the US. All of the texts of this nature that I'm finding, if they don't cite Dupuis directly, then refer to someone else who in turn points back to the said 18th-century French publication. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One such effort is entitled *Anacalypsis* (1836), by an Englishman named Godfrey Higgins,&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; and is the oldest reference I can find that outright says that December 25th is the birthday of Dionysus, or rather of his Roman counterpart Bacchus. Incidentally this text this is also the oldest place in which I'm able to find the same claim about Osiris and Adonis. The foundation for the assertion regarding Adonis is a lot shiftier than the one about Dionysus. Nonetheless, by looking at Higgins' purported sources, I believe I can see the seams where he stitches some ideas together to arrive at this conclusion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When it comes to Osiris, meanwhile, we're much closer to the realm of just making stuff up, and the author even skates quite close to admitting as much. There is even less reliability when it comes to Krishna, whom he says (on p. 98 of Vol. 2) was &quot;born in the eighth month, which answers to our December&quot;. This is incorrect, as this divinity's birthday is actually celebrated in a festival in Bhādra, the 6th month of the Hindu calendar, on a day landing in, depending on the year, either late August or early September of the Gregorian calendar. But matters only get worse with subsequent writers on the subject, who cite *Anacalypsis* unabashedly.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Dionysus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his *Saturnalia*, Macrobius argues (in Chapter 18 of Book 1) that Apollo and Bacchus/Dionysus are different aspects of the same sun-god. According to §10 of the chapter, Dionysus is represented in statues &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;sometimes as a child, and sometimes as a young man; again, as a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; man with a beard and also as an old man... These differences in age&#xD;&#xA;&gt; have reference to the sun, for at the winter solstice the sun would&#xD;&#xA;&gt; seem to be a little child, like that which the Egyptians bring forth&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from a shrine on an appointed day, since the day is then at its&#xD;&#xA;&gt; shortest and the god is accordingly shown as a tiny infant.&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Macrobius fails to specify which &quot;appointed day&quot; is meant here, and neglects to inform us which Egyptian deity he has in view. However, because the divinity is mentioned in connection with Bacchus-Dionysus, the interpretation of Dupuis, in *L'origine*, is that an image specifically of *Bacchus* in the form of a child &quot;had been exposed to the eyes of the Initiates at the time of 25 December&quot;.&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Fast-forward a few decades, and when Higgins paraphrases this passage from *L'origine* in his *Anacalypsis* (Vol. 2, p. 102), he cites Dupuis and then just plainly states that Bacchus &quot;was born of a virgin on the 25th of December&quot;. As we shall see below, around the time of Macrobius the winter solstice in the Late Antique Roman Empire was actually calculated to be a few days before the 25th (see the reference to the parapegma of Antiochus of Athens under the section `Sol Invictus, and Mithras: The Sources for the Birthday of Invictus`). But between Dupuis and Higgins (the latter especially) such nuances (like the fact that no version of Bacchus was ever &quot;born of a virgin&quot;) are evidently inconsequential. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Osiris**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unlike with pretty much all the other figures in your title, the actual date of Osiris's birth itself is a big deal in ancient myth and ritual, because when his mother was pregnant with him and his four siblings, the Sun had resentfully forbidden her to give birth on any day of the year, which at that point was composed of only 360 days. By winning a gambling contest against the Moon, Hermes (usually interpreted to be the Egyptian god Thoth) was able to squeeze five extra days into the calendar by earning the moon-light necessary to create them. These five days were then used to recalibrate the Egyptian calendar every year. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story is told by Plutarch in *On Isis and Osiris*, found in his collection of essays entitled [in Greek] *Ethika* (or *Moralia* as it is called in Latin), in which he says that Osiris was born on the first of these additional days. In the Coptic calendar used in Egypt at present day, and descended from the Ancient Egyptian one, this first day corresponds to September 6th in the modern Gregorian calendar (= August 24th in the Julian calendar). Just as in the Coptic, in the Ethiopian calendar, it makes up the beginning of the 13th &quot;add-on&quot; month of the year, which is only 5 days long, and which would have occurred around June or July in the ancient version of these dates.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the same narrative about the birth of Osiris and his siblings, Plutarch says that the Greeks came to identify this god with Dionysus. If we insisted that therefore we know Dionysus' birthday based on it being the same as that of Osiris, i.e. the 1st of the 5 intercalary days, this still gives us, as above, sometime in June/July.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's probably by splicing together Dupuis's reading of *Saturnalia* 1.18.10 (as above, that Bacchus was born at the winter solstice), with this apparent identification of Osiris and Dionysus, that one could arrive at anything resembling direct evidence of a December date for Osiris's birth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Sol Invictus, and Mithras&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mithras was identified with the sun and regularly labelled in votive inscriptions as *Deus Sol Invictus Mithras*, &quot;the God, Unconquered Sun, Mithras.&quot; Frequently, however, Mithras is also clearly represented as a separate, distinct entity from the sun, depicted in the company of the sun-god Sol Invictus, such as when the two of them banquet together on the bull slaughtered by Mithras, or when Sol gives Mithras a lift in his chariot.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These scenes form some of the typical imagery featured at the sites known as Mithraea, from their use in the mysteries of Mithras, an esoteric cult restricted to small groups of men (i.e. adult males *exclusively*) spread out all over the Roman Empire. Owing to the secretive nature of this cult, just as in other mysteries in the empire, and in ancient times generally, as well as throughout the world across history, little is currently known with certainty regarding the precise meaning of these images, or regarding the activities in which the cult’s initiates engaged themselves. Conversely, the public cult of Sol Invictus, practised out in the open, just as those of the other gods in general, included every inhabitant of the empire by default.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***The Sources for the Birthday of Invictus***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Technically there is no ancient source that explicitly mentions a birth-date for Mithras specifically referring to him by name. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - In the part of the *Chronography of AD 354* known as the Philocalian&#xD;&#xA;   Calendar, December 25th is marked as the birthday of Invictus, the&#xD;&#xA;   “Invincible” One, without attaching an actual name to the epithet.&#xD;&#xA;   According to the annotation, thirty races were to be conducted in the&#xD;&#xA;   Circus on that day.&#xD;&#xA; - In an anonymous Christian homily, supposedly from the same century as&#xD;&#xA;   the *354 Chronograph*, and entitled *On the Solstices and the&#xD;&#xA;   Equinoxes of the Conception and Nativity of our Lord Jesus Christ and&#xD;&#xA;   of John the Baptist*, it is said that “they call it [December 25th]&#xD;&#xA;   the Birthday of Invictus” and also “the Birthday of Sol [or of the&#xD;&#xA;   Sun]”. (In the time of Dupuis it was thought that St John Chrysostom was the author of this text, an attribution now understood to be spurious.)&#xD;&#xA; - An Egyptian calendar of uncertain date, written in Greek, and known as&#xD;&#xA;   the parapegma of Antiochus of Athens, lists astronomical events, such&#xD;&#xA;   as “Winter Solstice” for December 22nd, and “[*the star*] Prokyon&#xD;&#xA;   [Procyon] sets in the east” for December 23rd. For December 25th it&#xD;&#xA;   says: “Birth of Helios [or of the Sun]; light increases”.&#xD;&#xA; - According to Emperor Julian the Apostate’s *Oration* 4, also called&#xD;&#xA;   the Hymn to King Helios (composed less than a decade after the&#xD;&#xA;   Philocalian Calendar), there was, sometime between December 23rd and&#xD;&#xA;   the beginning of the New Year, a festival dedicated to Helios&#xD;&#xA;   Aniketos [Anicetus], which is the Greek form of the name of Sol&#xD;&#xA;   Invictus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In his 2011 essay “[Usener’s Christmas: A Contribution to the Modern Construct of Late Antique Solar Syncretism](https://www.academia.edu/987479/Useners_Christmas_A_Contribution_to_the_Modern_Construct_of_Late_Antique_Solar_Syncretism_in_M_Espagne_and_P_Rabault_Feuerhahn_edd_Hermann_Usener_und_die_Metamorphosen_der_Philologie_Wiesbaden_Harrassowitz_2011_139_152),” Steven Hijmans says that this documentation of the Sun’s birthday &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;is often expanded with the additional claims… that in the cult of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Mithras there was also a major festival on that day. The ease with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which [this is] often repeated is surprising. Of the mystery cult of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sol Invictus Mithras we know little with certainty, and even if we&#xD;&#xA;&gt; leave aside the problem of the relationship between the Mithraic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mysteries and the public cult of Sol, the notion that Mithraists&#xD;&#xA;&gt; celebrated December 25 in some fashion is a modern invention for which&#xD;&#xA;&gt; there is simply no evidence.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roger Beck critiques the notion that Mithras was born on December 25 by making a distinction between, on the one hand, the smaller-scale, secretive Mithraic cult and, on the other hand, the *Natalis Invicti* (&quot;Birthday of Invictus&quot;) festival attested in the *354 Chronograph*, celebrated on a large scale with public games such as it was, and thus part of the sanctioned business of the empire regarding the state’s official sun-deity, the Titan Sol. Based on this contrast, with Mithras being an unofficial, privately-venerated god, Beck surmises that “it does not follow that” Mithras himself was also “necessarily or even probably, born on” the same day as the Sun-Titan.&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An analogy to expand on the point being made here, as I understand it, might be a look at yet another god who was syncretised with Sol/Helios, and whose birthday is likewise anciently attested, namely Apollo. According to Plutarch, this deity was called Hebdomagenes, from having been born on the seventh day of the month. (At Delos this was the month of Thargelion while at Delphi the month was Bysios.) It would likely be misleading and inaccurate to make the assumption that Sol, because he was so closely linked with Apollo as a fellow god of light, was therefore also thought to have been born on the seventh day of the month. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover, since Sol and Mithras were often identical in the context of the exclusivist Mithraic mysteries, why not go ahead and assume that Mithras too was born on this seventh day? (According to Pseudo-Clementine Homily 7.10, Apollo was “a son of Zeus, who was also called Mithras”.) This would be just valid (or rather *invalid?*) as saying that both Apollo and Mithras surely were born on the date in question in December since they and Sol Invictus are all, in some way, the sun. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;ORIGINS&#xD;&#xA;-------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Coming Up with a Death Scene for Mithras**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In 1872 the abridged version of Dupuis' aforementioned work was translated into English as *The Origin of All Religious Worship*. The claim that Mithras was born on December 25 appears on p. 246 of the publication, in the same passage asserting that Mithras “died as he [Christ] did; he had his sepulchre, over which his disciples came to shed tears. During the night the priests carried his image to a tomb, expressly prepared for him; he was laid out on a litter, like the Phoenician Adonis.” These priests are then described as mourning for the deceased god and thereafter proclaiming rejoicing that he had risen from the dead.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This scenario is a paraphrase of the second half of *On the Error of the Profane Religions* 22.1, written by Firmicus Maternus, and which reads thus:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;On a certain night a statue is laid flat on its back on a bier,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; where it is bemoaned in cadenced plaints. Then when the worshippers&#xD;&#xA;&gt; have had their fill of feigned lamentation, a light is brought in.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Next a priest anoints the throats of all who were mourning, and once&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that is done he whispers in a low murmur:&lt;/sub&gt;    &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; &lt;sub&gt;“Rejoice, o initiates! Behold, our god appears as saved!     &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &gt; And we shall find salvation, springing from our woes.”&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The passage is ambiguous, as Maternus never names the deity to whom he is referring in this section, which leaves it open to interpretation. Maternus's 1970 translator Clarence A. Forbes relates some mild scholarly controversy over the matter, naming five academics (one of them being Franz Cumont) who favour Osiris for the figure's identity, &quot;Though Heuten and several others have argued for Attis,&quot; while Adonis is also apparently considered as an alternate candidate.&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Referring to another ritual narrated further down in *On the Error* 22, Nilsson, one of the aforementioned five, &quot;observed that to have a god's stone image dismembered and then put together again (22.3) was a cult action appropriate to Osiris and not to Attis.&quot;&lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt; Dupuis, a century or so earlier, is special in having authoritatively applied this passage to Mithras, founding the basis for numerous subsequent declarations that Mithras was thought to have died and resurrected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By 1882 it would become possible to read in *Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions*, a book by an American named Thomas William Doane, that &quot;*Mithras* remained in the grave a period of *three days*&quot; [*italics in original*]. The only proof offered for this is a quote from another author saying: &quot;The Persians believed that the soul of man remained yet *three* days in the world after its separation from the body {*emphasis in original*}.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the rest of the claim he cites p. 99 of Higgins's *Anacalypsis* Vol. 2, which in turn says that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;The same God was believed, by the inhabitants of Persia, Asia&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Minor, and Armenia, under the name of Mithra, to have been born in a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cave on the 25th of December, to have been put to death, and to have&#xD;&#xA;&gt; risen again on the 25th of March.&quot;&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At this point Higgins provides a full quote of Dupuis's paraphrase of the ritual narrated by Maternus (who, as noted, never says that this has to do with Mithras).       &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Adding Adonis &amp; Osiris to the Concoction**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for the other divinities in question, according to Vol. 2, pp. 98-99 of *Anacalypsis*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Tertullian, Jerom [*sic*], and other fathers of the church, inform us,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that the Gentiles celebrated, on the 25th of December… the birth of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the God Sol, under the name of Adonis, in a cave, like that of Mithra&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (in Persia *Mithra*; in Egypt, Phœnicia, and Biblis, *Adonis*), and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that the cave wherein they celebrated his mysteries was that in which&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Christ was born in the city of Bethlehem, or, according to the strict&#xD;&#xA;&gt; meaning of the word Bethlehem, *in the city of the house of the sun.*  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [*Emphases in original*]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From a footnote, Dupuis is again supposedly the one to blame for this shopping list of ideas. The birthday reference is probably alluding to the aforementioned homily *On the Solstices and the Equinoxes*. St Jerome does imply, in his Letter 58 (to Paulinus), that Christ was born in a cave in Bethlehem. In order to spite Christians, he says, starting in the reign of Hadrian, around this cave a grove was dedicated to lamentation for the death of Tammuz, whom he identifies with Adonis. Beyond that, as far as I know, none of the Church Fathers ever equates Adonis with either the traditional Greco-Roman sun-god or with any version of Mithras, whether in his Persian or Romanised guise.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further down p. 99 of *Anacalypsis* 2: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;At the first moment after midnight of the 24th of December, all&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the nations of the earth, by common consent, celebrated the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; accouchement of the Queen of Heaven, of the Celestial Virgin of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sphere, and the birth of the God Sol, the infant Orus or Aur, the God&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Day...&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;The Egyptians celebrated the birth of the son of Isis on the 25th&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of December... The son of *the Holy Virgin*, as they called Ceres, was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Osiris: he was born on the 25th of December. At his birth, Plutarch&#xD;&#xA;&gt; says, that a voice was heard, saying, &quot;On this day is born the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *supreme Lord of the universe*, the beneficent king Osiris.&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [*Emphases in original*]&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Plutarch's *On Isis and Osiris* does in fact quote a voice uttering something quite close to that line of dialogue on the occasion of Osiris's birth, although this has nothing to do with December 25th. It is from the same story in which we are told that Osiris was born in the extra (thirteenth) month of the year that was gambled into the calendar (see the section `Osiris` above).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&quot;On the second of these days&quot; (after Osiris's birth, i.e.), Plutarch says, &quot;Haroeris was born whom they call Apollo, and some call him also the elder Horus... On the fourth day Isis was born... There is also a tradition that Osiris and Haroeris were sprung from Helios {*Sol, in the Latin version; usually interpreted to be the Egyptian Ra*}... Some say that Haroeris came from&quot; the union of Osiris and Isis, who had married each other.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So Plutarch identifies Horus with Apollo, and not with Sol/Helios, whom he says is Horus's father in one version of the myth, although Higgins does not seem to care about such distinctions at this point, nor, for that matter does Dupuis before him, nor Doane afterwards. (The determination to cause any and all things on the subject to be about the sun is especially extreme when it comes to the etymology for *Bethlehem*, which in Hebrew means &quot;House of Bread&quot;, and in Arabic &quot;House of Meat&quot;, by whatever route it is that Higgins was able to arrive at &quot;House of the Sun&quot; for that instead.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ceres is in fact listed (by the Roman writer Hyginus) among the goddesses whom the constellation Virgo was supposed to be, and her Greek counterpart Demeter was indeed identified with the Egyptian Isis, but none of these deities, whether Roman, Greek or Egyptian, is ever a virgin mother, nor am I aware of any of them being named as the mother of Osiris.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The closest connection between December 25th and a son of Isis that I can find is when Plutarch says, once again in *On Isis and Osiris*, that Harpokrates, the Hellenised form of Horus the Younger, was given his birth by Isis &quot;about the time of the winter solstice&quot;. To make this also about Osiris, Higgins dismisses the rather pertinent distinctions between them with the statement (Vol. 2, p. 102) that &quot;They were the same Gods, in fact, only under different names.&quot;       &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Gold, Frankincense and Myrrh... or, Really, Any Assortment of Stuff***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On p. 151 of *Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions*, Doane says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Not only was Crishna adored by the shepherds and Magi, and received&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with *divine honors*, but he was *also presented with gifts*. These gifts&#xD;&#xA;&gt; were &quot;sandal wood and perfumes.&quot; (Why not &quot;frankincense and myrrh?&quot;)  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; [*Italics in original*]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further on (p. 152), he adds that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Buddha, as well as Crishna and Jesus, was presented with &quot;costly&#xD;&#xA;&gt; jewels and precious substances.&quot; (Why not gold and perfumes?)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ensuring that Mithras doesn't get left out of his catalogue, he tells us (on the same page) that this god too, &quot;at the time of his birth... was presented with gifts consisting of gold, frankincense and myrrh.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For the allegation about Krishna's gifts, he cites as his sources an encyclopaedia by Samuel Johnson as well as a book by Thomas Inman called *Ancient Faiths Embodied in Ancient Names*, Vol. 2 (both published about a decade previous to his own work). The Johnson reference simply narrates an episode in Krishna's adult life in which he is received as an honoured guest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for Inman, his *Ancient Faiths* has this to say (on p. 353):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;No one can for a moment suppose that the Magi, who came to adore&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Jesus and his mother, were Christians, making Christian offerings; the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; context indeed paints them as Eastern Asiatics; and they are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; represented as making the same oblations as they would to Mithra… in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their own district. Such offerings were made to the infant Christna&#xD;&#xA;&gt; when in the arms of his mother Maia...&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I cannot imagine any other reason for Inman to spell the name of &quot;the infant&quot; as *Christna* other than to insinuate some affinity between the otherwise completely unrelated words &quot;Christ&quot; and &quot;Krishna.&quot; Also Maia (or rather Mâya) is actually the mother of the Buddha, and not of Krishna, but at this juncture the point seems to be to draw whatever parallels can be found, real or imagined, among these three figures. Inman's objective in this particular case seems to be the alliteration between the names Mary (Jesus' mother) and Maia/Mâya (attributed, falsely, with having given birth to Krishna).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At least the citation provided by Doane for the assertion regarding the Buddha comes closer to an undistorted representation of his source, which is Samuel Beal's 1875 book *The Romantic Legend of Sâkya Buddha*, in which a sage called Asita comes to visit the Buddha at his birth. The Buddha's father King Suddhôdhana (on p. 58) gives Asita &quot;costly jewels and precious substances&quot; but the sage &quot;on his part... at once presented the gifts to the babe as an offering.&quot; The newborn's father and the sage then go back and forth a few times, the king trying to give the gifts back to Asita as originally intended but the sage insisting on offering them to the baby.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I haven't found any ancient narrative of Krishna's birth that says he received any sort of gift as a child, although in the *Śrīmad Bhāgavatam* he, upon being born, appears to his father Vasudeva bearing the dazzling attributes of Vishnu, wearing earrings sparkling with gems, sporting a full head of hair (covered with a helmet!), and generally &quot;decorated with... armlets, bangles and other ornaments&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the 1500s AD, a Bengali poet called Kavi Karnapura wrote a book entitled *Ananda-Vṛndāvana-Campu*, in which (per Chapter 2) the closest thing to the baby receiving gifts is that women bathe Krishna in some sort of ambrosia and then they anoint him with &quot;fragrant sandalwood pulp&quot; (apparently the same sort of treatment received after he grows up, as in Johnson's encyclopaedia). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Otherwise, to his mother, his appearance is so brilliant that his body looks to be made of jewels or lotus flowers. The villagers at his birthday celebration &quot;decorated their cows with gold and jeweled ornaments. Then in great excitement they smeared them with oil, fresh butter, and turmeric paste.&quot; And his &quot;relatives offered opulent cloth, jewelled ornaments, *tāmbūla* {*betel leaves*}, garlands, and sandalwood pulp to the guests.&quot; In Karnapura's book, these gifts, evidently quite different from the ones listed in Christ's birth story from Matthew's Gospel, are given to the guests, not the child.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As a bonus, on p. 96 of *Anacalypsis* 2, Higgins even grants us the notion that there was a &quot;story of the three Magi, who, according to Plato, came from the East to offer gifts to Socrates at his birth, bringing gold, frankincense, and myrrh.&quot; The best we can hope to receive for a source for this claim (buried in Footnote 4 on the page) is: &quot;This story of Plato's I cannot point out in his works, but I was told it by a most respectable clergyman at Cambridge.&quot; (The esteemed Cambridge clergyman is conspicuous in the fact that he remains unnamed.)  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Notes**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. The work's full title is *Anacalypsis, An Attempt to Draw Aside the Veil of the Saitic Isis; or An Inquiry into the Origin of Languages, Nations, and Religions*, by the Late Godfrey Higgins [it was published 3 years after his death], London: Longman, Rees, Orme, Brown, Green, &amp; Longman, Paternoster Row, 1836.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. See p. 129 of *Macrobius: The Saturnalia*, Translated with an Introduction and Notes by Percival Vaughan Davies (Number LXXIX of the Records of Civilization Sources and Studies), New York &amp; London, Columbia University Press, 1969.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. My own translation of the original French, from p. 197 of Volume 2&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;4. See Beck's Review Article/Discussion &quot;Merkelbach's *Mithras*&quot; in the Vol. 41, No. 3, Autumn, 1987 issue of *Phoenix*, the journal of the Classical Association of Canada (p. 299, n. 12).&lt;/sub&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;5. Forming part of Note 422 on p. 207 of *Firmicus Maternus: The Error of the Pagan Religions*, Translated &amp; Annotated by Clarence A. Forbes (Newman Press, 1970, New York, NY &amp; Paramus, NJ).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;6. *Ibid.*&lt;/sub&gt;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
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  <row Id="30662" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10815" RevisionGUID="fb84acbb-05ae-4d63-86f5-0f2377eea4f9" CreationDate="2023-10-04T20:29:08.983" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30663" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10816" RevisionGUID="712c6d0a-1c59-47b1-a971-cbb91b6dc697" CreationDate="2023-10-04T20:29:08.983" UserId="53" Text="For myths relating to the concept of Evil" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30665" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10816" RevisionGUID="712c6d0a-1c59-47b1-a971-cbb91b6dc697" CreationDate="2023-10-04T20:29:08.983" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30666" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10817" RevisionGUID="fe3bc7dd-5297-4085-ac85-c6fbed4be6e1" CreationDate="2023-10-04T20:30:25.087" UserId="53" Text="For myths regarding the planets of the solar system.&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30668" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10817" RevisionGUID="fe3bc7dd-5297-4085-ac85-c6fbed4be6e1" CreationDate="2023-10-04T20:30:25.087" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30669" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10818" RevisionGUID="7f4b10a9-bc3a-4519-86b8-04b880828fc4" CreationDate="2023-10-04T20:30:25.087" UserId="53" Text="For myths regarding the planets of the solar system" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30671" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10818" RevisionGUID="7f4b10a9-bc3a-4519-86b8-04b880828fc4" CreationDate="2023-10-04T20:30:25.087" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30672" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4627" RevisionGUID="89714d63-14f5-43b6-a482-d280ba783561" CreationDate="2023-10-04T20:35:26.610" UserId="53" Comment="added 227 characters in body" Text="For myths regarding the day known as Halloween, or All Hallows' Eve in Christianity.  The day before All Saints' Day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Particularly relevant is the derivation of Halloween myths from earlier pre-christian myths and practices." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30673" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4628" RevisionGUID="f2b685a4-6fc6-4fea-b085-d4e66eb06380" CreationDate="2023-10-04T20:35:26.610" UserId="53" Comment="added 51 characters in body" Text="For myths regarding Halloween, or All Hallows' Eve." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30674" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3114" RevisionGUID="f69693d9-af92-4805-b8c7-5d7956e66c6e" CreationDate="2023-10-06T10:07:35.707" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30675" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6480" RevisionGUID="e60518e9-26a6-4176-832a-180f8a127511" CreationDate="2023-10-08T00:02:20.263" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30683" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10822" RevisionGUID="91f73379-fa89-4250-95a2-028476231b3c" CreationDate="2023-10-09T00:00:01.043" UserId="10651" Text="Eusebius recorded information about a Phoenician historian named sanchuniathon (in his book Praeparatio Evangelica). Who suggests that Ouranus and Noah were the same person. Based on the story of Kronos castrating Ouranus.&#xD;&#xA;So too did Ham castrate Noah by raping Noah's wife. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30685" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10823" RevisionGUID="e047b427-ef3d-4d12-88b3-3905b1283436" CreationDate="2023-10-09T14:06:26.963" UserId="10654" Text="Whether it is Zeus or not is yet to be determined.  However, the Hebrew word Yada (know) can mean “to recognize, confess”.  Many believe that this portrays the future antichrist and the reference to the “god of his fathers” means that he will be a Jew.  During the Israel’s biblical time in Canaan, they unfortunately began to worship (recognize, confess) the many gods of the Canaanites, none of which were Zeus. So it is possible that Zeus or some other god that the Jews did not recognize could be the answer." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30695" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10826" RevisionGUID="31aba79b-073d-486b-b9b8-ae9fac404e92" CreationDate="2023-10-11T16:20:14.323" UserId="10656" Text="There is a significant example of God using the “magical” practices of non-Jewish peoples for a very good reason - to discover the birth of the Savior Jesus Christ.  It’s one most of us have heard of. It begins in Matthew 2:1 &amp; 2:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, saying, “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yes these were the famous “Magi” that many sing about in the Christmas carol “We Three Kings”.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eastman’s Bible Dictionary say regarding them:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“The Magi mentioned in Mat 2:1-12 were not magicians in the ordinary sense of the word. They belonged to a religious caste, the followers of Zoroaster, the astrologers of the East.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greek word used for them in the verse is “magos” from which the word “magic” is derived.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now obviously the star that they had seen was an effect created by God and not some mystical interpretation by astrologers. But it was likely that in the practice of their own astrology that it was discovered and therefore followed by them.  So God used the “magic” practiced by others, even that which was condemned in Israel, to lead to the Messiah.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That being said, the practice of magic was not and is not a good idea for Jews or those who follow Christ, as the previous commentators have pointed out.  So this example is not an excuse to practice “good” magic.  There may be some out there that try to contend that it’s okay, but it’s not.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But it is a wonderful example of how God will use and draw even the most objectionable people to His Son. And He often does it by miraculous means! As Jesus said, “I tell you that if these should keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out.” (Luke 19:40) And He will do that even when even the ones who should be listening aren’t!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30697" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="10791" RevisionGUID="0b17a447-5605-43b3-bc97-640725ce9ba0" CreationDate="2023-10-11T17:03:05.460" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30698" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10826" RevisionGUID="535051fe-d26f-4875-a79f-1a3b5e82f571" CreationDate="2023-10-11T17:21:40.173" UserId="10656" Comment="added 5 characters in body" Text="There is a significant example of God using the “magical” practices of non-Jewish peoples for a very good reason - to discover the birth of the Savior Jesus Christ.  It’s one most of us have heard of. It begins in Matthew 2:1 &amp; 2:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, saying, “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yes these were the famous “Magi” that many sing about in the Christmas carol “We Three Kings”.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eastman’s Bible Dictionary says regarding them:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“The Magi mentioned in Mat 2:1-12 were not magicians in the ordinary sense of the word. They belonged to a religious caste, the followers of Zoroaster, the astrologers of the East.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greek word used for them in the verse is “magos” from which the word “magic” is derived.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now obviously the star that they had seen was an effect created by God and not some mystical interpretation by astrologers. But it was likely that in the practice of their own astrology that it was discovered and therefore followed by them.  So God used the “magic” practiced by others, even that which was condemned in Israel, to lead to the Messiah.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That being said, the practice of magic was not and is not a good idea for Jews or those who follow Christ, as the previous commentators have pointed out.  So this example is not an excuse to practice “good” magic.  There may be some out there that try to contend that it’s okay, but it’s not.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But it is a wonderful example of how God will use and draw people even the religious would reject to His Son. And He often does it by miraculous means! As Jesus said, “I tell you that if these should keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out.” (Luke 19:40) And He will do that even when even the ones who should be listening aren’t!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30699" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10826" RevisionGUID="1ff93c28-6a79-4dbe-884c-7ea7a140cd26" CreationDate="2023-10-11T17:33:41.717" UserId="10656" Comment="added 136 characters in body" Text="There is a significant example of God using the “magical” practices of non-Jewish peoples for a very good reason - to discover the birth of the Savior Jesus Christ.  It’s one most of us have heard of. It begins in Matthew 2:1 &amp; 2:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, saying, “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yes these were the famous “Magi” that many sing about in the Christmas carol “We Three Kings”.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eastman’s Bible Dictionary says regarding them:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“The Magi mentioned in Mat 2:1-12 were not magicians in the ordinary sense of the word. They belonged to a religious caste, the followers of Zoroaster, the astrologers of the East.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greek word used for them in the verse is “magos” from which the word “magic” is derived.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now obviously the star that they had seen was an effect created by God and not some mystical interpretation by astrologers. But it was likely that in the practice of their own astrology that it was discovered and therefore followed by them.  So God used the “magic” practiced by others, even that which was condemned in Israel, to lead to the Messiah.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That being said, the practice of magic was not and is not supported biblically for Jews or Christians as the previous contributors have effectively pointed out.  So this example is not an excuse to practice “good” magic for them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But it is a surprising example of how God uses and draws people even the religious would reject to His Son. And He promised to do it by miraculous means! Jesus said, “I tell you that if these should keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out.” (Luke 19:40) And He will do that even when even the ones who should be listening aren’t!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jesus also said:&#xD;&#xA;“Come to Me, *all* who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” (Matthew 11:28). He didn’t restrict himself to just those who were supposedly “acceptably religious”." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30705" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10826" RevisionGUID="dded6e29-5ea6-4200-a8ab-e4b266459de5" CreationDate="2023-10-12T13:46:01.020" UserId="10656" Comment="deleted 61 characters in body" Text="There is a significant example of God using the “magical” practices of non-Jewish peoples for a very good reason - to discover the birth of the Savior Jesus Christ.  It’s one most of us have heard of. It begins in Matthew 2:1 &amp; 2:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, saying, “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yes these were the famous “Magi” that many sing about in the Christmas carol “We Three Kings”.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Eastman’s Bible Dictionary says regarding them:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“The Magi mentioned in Mat 2:1-12 were not magicians in the ordinary sense of the word. They belonged to a religious caste, the followers of Zoroaster, the astrologers of the East.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Greek word used for them in the verse is “magos” from which the word “magic” is derived.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now obviously the star that they had seen was an effect created by God and not some mystical interpretation by astrologers. But it was likely that in the practice of their own astrology that it was discovered and therefore followed by them.  So God used the “magic” practiced by others, even that which was condemned in Israel, to lead to the Messiah.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That being said, the practice of magic was not and is not supported biblically for Jews or Christians as the previous contributors have effectively pointed out.  So this example is not an excuse to practice “good” magic for them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But it is a surprising example of how God uses and draws people even the religious would reject to His Son. And He promised to do it by miraculous means! As Jesus said, “I tell you that if these should keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out.” (Luke 19:40) And He will do that even when even the ones who should be listening aren’t!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30707" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10828" RevisionGUID="276dd32f-2ec2-460e-95ad-0cb75b6c0ccc" CreationDate="2023-10-12T16:19:40.517" UserId="10656" Text="As the previous contributor says, the Bible does not equate humans as angels in either current or afterlife.  In fact it says this of angels: “Therefore, angels are only servants--spirits sent to care for people who will inherit salvation” (Hebrews 1:14 - NLT).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is a common claim of spiritualists though, who say that the spirits they come in contact with are former relatives who have passed away.  It’s helpful to their cause and makes their practice look acceptable.  But many others believe that these spirits may be demons who are trying to deceive the people into having a false idea of the afterlife.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Bible though promises something different for humans who die.  Jesus said, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand” (John 10:27,28 - NKJV). The only requirement he mentions is just to hear him and follow him, and anyone can do that." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30709" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10828" RevisionGUID="fef8ffb9-7909-4956-ab68-41a2a9f0763a" CreationDate="2023-10-12T16:20:55.610" UserId="10656" Comment="deleted 15 characters in body" Text="As the above says, the Bible does not equate humans as angels in either current or afterlife.  In fact it says this of angels: “Therefore, angels are only servants--spirits sent to care for people who will inherit salvation” (Hebrews 1:14 - NLT).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is a common claim of spiritualists though, who say that the spirits they come in contact with are former relatives who have passed away.  It’s helpful to their cause and makes their practice look acceptable.  But many others believe that these spirits may be demons who are trying to deceive the people into having a false idea of the afterlife.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Bible though promises something different for humans who die.  Jesus said, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand” (John 10:27,28 - NKJV). The only requirement he mentions is just to hear him and follow him, and anyone can do that." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30710" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10828" RevisionGUID="ab567c04-545f-4a6d-a012-f2ba63dee9d6" CreationDate="2023-10-12T16:21:31.103" UserId="10656" Comment="added 4 characters in body" Text="As the above says, the Bible does not equate humans as angels in either the current or afterlife.  In fact it says this of angels: “Therefore, angels are only servants--spirits sent to care for people who will inherit salvation” (Hebrews 1:14 - NLT).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is a common claim of spiritualists though, who say that the spirits they come in contact with are former relatives who have passed away.  It’s helpful to their cause and makes their practice look acceptable.  But many others believe that these spirits may be demons who are trying to deceive the people into having a false idea of the afterlife.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Bible though promises something different for humans who die.  Jesus said, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand” (John 10:27,28 - NKJV). The only requirement he mentions is just to hear him and follow him, and anyone can do that." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30714" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10829" RevisionGUID="46a9d4dc-abb8-4d03-adb7-70d69a01f5e8" CreationDate="2023-10-14T21:32:23.127" UserId="6301" Text="There are conventional and canonical differences of notion in relation to this question. Not only does folk culture support the idea in some contexts that all sincere adherents becomes saints upon death, some also affirm that the worthy dead become angels. This distinction stratifies into &quot;God's angels&quot; or &quot;archangels&quot; with greater authority and appeal and suborders or subordinates of the angel caste.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even within the subordinates themselves they may be identified as *personal* (or &quot;guardian&quot;) angels for individuals, and these are stratified by some in the sense that a portion of these are deemed &quot;without their wings&quot; which are earned, like badges or power-ups. This can be seen in popular media where it is promoted that &quot;Every time a bell rings an angel gets its wings.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Usually the angel caste is reserved for those who earn the status, and this is often restricted or designated for those who were part of the known religious body of the speaker or individual affirming the ideology (i.e. it is insular or chosen of those of one's own body of believers)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30723" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10831" RevisionGUID="7f0c60e3-ca1d-4d7b-ad52-084e6a511de7" CreationDate="2023-10-19T13:14:08.757" UserId="10692" Text="As per Ramayan, Ram and Laxman helped Vishwamitra to kill Tataka yakshi. Viswamitra was a sage by then, that means he had already met Menaka, and Shakuntala was born. &#xD;&#xA;As per Mahabharata Shakuntala was married to Dushmanta and gave birth to Bharat. This means, Dushyanta or Bharat must have been alive in the same timeline as Ram. If so, why is there no mention of either of them in Ramayan? How come there is no mention of Ram in the mention of Dushyanta and his son Bharat’s timeline in Mahabharata? What am I missing?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30725" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10831" RevisionGUID="7f0c60e3-ca1d-4d7b-ad52-084e6a511de7" CreationDate="2023-10-19T13:14:08.757" UserId="10692" Text="Vishwamitra common link Ramayan and Mahabharata" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30726" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10831" RevisionGUID="7f0c60e3-ca1d-4d7b-ad52-084e6a511de7" CreationDate="2023-10-19T13:14:08.757" UserId="10692" Text="|hindu|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30729" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5709" RevisionGUID="e5e87899-50d6-476f-b382-7bd3af38edc3" CreationDate="2023-10-21T01:03:10.427" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30730" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="10379" RevisionGUID="69953976-bf29-4a38-b9d6-d98c690a7116" CreationDate="2023-10-21T02:01:05.127" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30731" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10832" RevisionGUID="a8964024-6d5b-4841-b1ce-fac614ff02ea" CreationDate="2023-10-22T00:21:48.023" UserId="4152" Text="### Regular Sound Change&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;\&#xD;&#xA;It's been a while since I looked at Etruscan, but two things that stuck out was that the language doesn't seem to get along well with voiced stops (like [g] and [d]), and also that they tended to reduce the number of vowels &amp; syllables in their words. A quick review of the Wikipedia list of [Etruscan mythological figures][1] shows that this is a regular occurrence:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;\&#xD;&#xA;Achmemrun  &lt; Gk Agamemnon&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Aitas  &lt;  Gk Hades&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Catmite  &lt;  Gk Gadymedes :: of note, Latin borrowed this name as Catamitus and also Ganymedes from Greek&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Metus  &lt;  Gk Medusa&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Rathmtr  &lt;  Gk Rhadamanthys&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;Satre  &lt;  Lat Saturnus&lt;br&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Etruscan_mythological_figures" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30734" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10720" RevisionGUID="a708cd50-2e07-419b-8afe-d0412590e598" CreationDate="2023-10-23T13:52:40.257" UserId="10311" Comment="added 8 characters in body" Text="## *Vampires*&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Vampires of European and other mythologies often overlap in concept with modern ideas of witches, zombies, and werewolves, however the ostensibly Romanian term [*Nosferatu*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosferatu_(word)) has cultural significance as a synonym with vampire pre-dating (and later popularised by) the novel Dracula.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for other languages, [most Slavic languages](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/%C7%ABpyr%D1%8C#Descendants) have a word cognate to *vampire* (e.g. Serbian вампир, Croatian vampir, Czech upír, Ukrainian упир), and most other european languages have either a direct loanword from one of these, or a via English.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also the Albanian [*dhampir*](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dhampir#Albanian) (in addition to *vampir*) possibly named for *dham* (&quot;tooth&quot;). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Several languages have euphemisms meaning &quot;blood sucker&quot; e.g. German *Blutsauger*, Irish *súmaire*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Analogous myths&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As for words for vampires or analogous creatures in other languages, there is the flesh/liver consuming Greek [βρυκόλακας](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vrykolakas) (whose name derives from the Bulgarian name for &quot;werewolf&quot; *vǎrkolak*).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Albanian *lugat* refers to zombie like vampires.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Romanian also has *strigoi* meaning witch/vampire, from Latin *striga* of the same.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In early Germany the witch (***hexe***) seems to have been also a vampire. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- [*An encyclopædia of occultism*](https://openlibrary.org/books/OL22970475M/An_encyclop%C3%A6dia_of_occultism) (1920)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30735" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10833" RevisionGUID="593b7b0c-f815-4b44-b4a0-e4c01c49dc13" CreationDate="2023-10-25T18:40:43.967" UserId="10710" Text="I've seen a few Christian sources (such as [this one][1]) mentioning a god called Tyrimnos (I've also seen it spelled Tyrimnas) that was worshiped at [Thyatira][2], but I have not been able to find any reference to this god in secular sources. Was there really a god called Tyrimnos or Tyrimnas?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30737" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10833" RevisionGUID="593b7b0c-f815-4b44-b4a0-e4c01c49dc13" CreationDate="2023-10-25T18:40:43.967" UserId="10710" Text="Was there a god called Tyrimnas or Tyrimnos worshipped at Thyatira?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30738" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10833" RevisionGUID="593b7b0c-f815-4b44-b4a0-e4c01c49dc13" CreationDate="2023-10-25T18:40:43.967" UserId="10710" Text="|greek|christianity|history|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30739" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10833" RevisionGUID="d1e64bf0-5b95-4835-8f9b-3eed3037b5e0" CreationDate="2023-10-25T20:58:16.617" UserId="10710" Comment="added 118 characters in body" Text="I've seen a few Christian sources (such as [this one][1]) mentioning a god called Tyrimnos (I've also seen it spelled Tyrimnas) that was worshiped at [Thyatira][2], but I have not been able to find any reference to this god in secular sources. Was there really a god called Tyrimnos or Tyrimnas?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://godskingdom.org/blog/2015/12/thyatira-529-1517-ad/&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyatira" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30740" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10834" RevisionGUID="4e322c74-3d1b-4d70-aadb-358b688dbd1a" CreationDate="2023-10-26T17:40:44.353" UserId="398" Text="Yes, Tyrimnos (or Tyrimnus in the Latinized spelling) was indeed worshiped as a hero in antiquity. The chief evidence for him we have, I believe, comes from coins and inscriptions naming him. An [overview of some German articles](https://www.jstor.org/stable/45275752) in *The Numismatic Chronicle* from 1892 contains a brief description:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Two new medallions of Thyatira. The importancee of these two coins, which are respectively of Severus Alexander and Maximinus, lies in the fact that they bear new and interesting representations connected with the cultus of&#xD;&#xA;the local god whose worship seems to have been peculiar to Thyatira. The name of this divinity was **ΤΥΡΙΜΝΟC** [which is &quot;tyrimnos&quot; in Greek - cmw]. He is usually figured as a youthful god wearing a chlamys, and with a double-axe over his shoulder, either standing or seated, or in a temple or on horseback. The figure on the new medallions differs from any of the above. Here he is radiate, like Helios, and on one specimen he stands in the solar chariot. Herr Pick is perhaps, therefore, warranted in drawing a distinction between this form of the god and that of the local hero Tyrimnos, who is never radiate. The latter in inscriptions is called Προπάτωρ Θεὸς Τυρίμνος, while the former is called Προπάτωρ Θεὸς Ἥλιος Πύθιος Ἀπόλλων Τυριμναῖος (Cf. *Corpus Inscr. Gr.* 3497, 3493, 3484, and 8500)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30742" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10835" RevisionGUID="8d772322-c47d-41ce-85fe-964e473797f5" CreationDate="2023-10-30T09:13:35.717" UserId="10733" Text="I've also been looking for citations.  Hamlet's Mill is referenced to varying degrees in:  When They Severed Earth from Sky by Elizabeth Wayland Barber and Paul T Barber, Wisdom of the Myth Tellers by Sean Kane, Book of the Sun by Marcell Jankovics, The Seven Story Tower:  A Mythic Journey Through Space and Time by Curtiss Hoffman, The Transformation of the Hummingbird:  Cultural Roots of a Zinacantecan Mythical Poem By Eva Hunt, The End of Time: The Maya Mystery of 2012 by Anthony Aveni, Signs in the Sky:  The Astrological and Archaeological Evidence for the Birth of a New Age by Adrian Geoffrey Gilbert, Myth:  A New Symposium (which cites Cosmology, History, and Theology edited by Yourgrau and Breck, as if that book refers to Hamlet's Mill, but I skimmed it and didn't see any references), The Myth of Replacement:  Stars, Gods, and Order in the Universe, The Saturn Myth by David N Talbott, The Power of the Bull  by Michael Rice, The Invisible Landscape:  Mind, Hallucinogens, and the I Ching by Terrence and Dennis McKenna, Maya Cosmogenesis 2012:  The True Meaning of the Maya Calendar End-Date by John Major Jenkins, Imaginary Landscape:  Making Worlds of Myth and Science by William Irwin Thompson, etc.  This list includes books by both academics and popular works, and a few of them are critical of the arguments in Hamlet's Mill.  There could be misspellings in the titles and names.  I might have once found a book with Plato in its title (?), but then I lost track of it and forgot the title.  There was a very extensive website on these topics by Australian Gary David Thompson that listed many works that refer to Hamlet's Mill and had detailed biographical information about the authors, though I think it was completely against the book's arguments, but its web hosting service shut down around August or September 2023.  Maybe it can be found archived or will by reposted at some point.  I might have copies of some pages and there is the Internet Wayback Machine.  I didn't know about J Saul and Harald Reiche.  There might be additional references listed under axial precession, astrological age, Mithraism, etc on Wikipedia.  I think Worthen and/or Rice note arguments about Mithraism and precession." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30744" PostHistoryTypeId="36" PostId="10836" RevisionGUID="aa4aa937-4a50-46e3-a10f-63339823d006" CreationDate="2023-10-30T13:11:20.617" UserId="-1" Comment="from https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/72675/on-the-mechanics-of-updating-mythology" />
  <row Id="30745" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10836" RevisionGUID="3e5d61d3-a2ed-4d77-bfae-8e91822f3ed0" CreationDate="2023-10-26T07:03:54.447" UserDisplayName="More Anonymous" Text="So I have the impression that in India a lot of real life events were glorified in Indian history and entered mythology (like the Mahabharata, etc? It recounts the Kurukshetra war, which is believed to have taken place around 3000 BCE).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There must be some times when a civilization can and can't update it's mythology.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What would be good reading material for understanding the mechanics and nature of updating mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30747" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10836" RevisionGUID="3e5d61d3-a2ed-4d77-bfae-8e91822f3ed0" CreationDate="2023-10-26T07:03:54.447" UserDisplayName="More Anonymous" Text="On the mechanics of updating mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30748" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10836" RevisionGUID="3e5d61d3-a2ed-4d77-bfae-8e91822f3ed0" CreationDate="2023-10-26T07:03:54.447" UserDisplayName="More Anonymous" Text="|untagged|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30749" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="10836" RevisionGUID="844f4c4e-d62c-45af-800f-31b6be0a7e48" CreationDate="2023-10-30T13:41:03.890" UserId="53" Comment="Retag" Text="|source-request|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30750" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10837" RevisionGUID="f4dd2509-b7a3-4bef-b7fd-89fe86c885fc" CreationDate="2023-10-30T21:54:18.017" UserId="9925" Text="## New Voices ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mythology gets updated when new voices retell the stories. There are a number of differences between the Lord of the Rings books and the Peter Jackson Lord of the Rings movies, but both are highly regarded by fans.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Similarly, comic book superheros are frequently updated when new artists retell the stories with new tones and different focus. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So to find times when Mythology have changed, look for times when new people have encountered the stories (example: migration) or times when new people have had a change to tell the stories (example: social change).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;## Hindu Specific ##&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Indo-Aryan [migrations][1] would be an important period in the formation of Hindu mythology. The (presumably well established) Indo-European herding culture mythology would change as it encountered Central Asia farming cultures ~2,200 BC. Wikipedia suggests that the Indo-European Sky Father (Zeus / Odin) was absorbed into an existing Central Asian Indra cult to create the Vedic Indra.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As the migrating Indo-Aryans settled down and merged with existing Punjab cultures, it probably would have undergone another significant shift. This would be around the time that the first [Vedic][2] myths were written down, ~1,500 BC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The introduction of amhisa after the rise of [Jainism][3] would be another period of change for Hindu myth (cira 600 BC). This leads to the shift from cow sacrifice to cow veneration. The later rise of and interaction with other world religions - Buddhism and Islam certainly -  would also influence Hindu myth, but I'll cut this off here before we get too long.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_migrations&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_period&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30752" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10835" RevisionGUID="1858d11e-4fcb-49e1-b10d-c26173046a61" CreationDate="2023-11-01T08:33:29.233" UserId="10733" Comment="added 5305 characters in body" Text="I've also been looking for citations.  Hamlet's Mill is referenced to varying degrees in:  When They Severed Earth from Sky by Elizabeth Wayland Barber and Paul T Barber, Wisdom of the Myth Tellers by Sean Kane, Book of the Sun by Marcell Jankovics, The Seven Story Tower:  A Mythic Journey Through Space and Time by Curtiss Hoffman, The Transformation of the Hummingbird:  Cultural Roots of a Zinacantecan Mythical Poem By Eva Hunt, The End of Time: The Maya Mystery of 2012 by Anthony Aveni, Signs in the Sky:  The Astrological and Archaeological Evidence for the Birth of a New Age by Adrian Geoffrey Gilbert, Myth:  A New Symposium (which cites Cosmology, History, and Theology edited by Yourgrau and Breck, as if that book refers to Hamlet's Mill, but I skimmed it and didn't see any references), The Myth of Replacement:  Stars, Gods, and Order in the Universe, The Saturn Myth by David N Talbott, The Power of the Bull  by Michael Rice, The Invisible Landscape:  Mind, Hallucinogens, and the I Ching by Terrence and Dennis McKenna, Maya Cosmogenesis 2012:  The True Meaning of the Maya Calendar End-Date by John Major Jenkins, Imaginary Landscape:  Making Worlds of Myth and Science by William Irwin Thompson, etc.  This list includes books by both academics and popular works, and a few of them are critical of the arguments in Hamlet's Mill.  There could be misspellings in the titles and names.  I might have once found a book with Plato in its title (?), but then I lost track of it and forgot the title.  There was a very extensive website on these topics by Australian Gary David Thompson that listed many works that refer to Hamlet's Mill and had detailed biographical information about the authors, though I think it was completely against the book's arguments, but its web hosting service shut down around August or September 2023.  Maybe it can be found archived or will by reposted at some point.  I might have copies of some pages and there is the Internet Wayback Machine.  I didn't know about J Saul and Harald Reiche.  There might be additional references listed under axial precession, astrological age, Mithraism, etc on Wikipedia.  I think Worthen and/or Rice note arguments about Mithraism and precession.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Addition - Actually, Gary David Thompson's website was preserved on web.archive.org/  Skimming, Thompson mentions these authors as referring to Hamlet's Mill or making similar or related arguments and some are cited in Hamlet's Mill:  Jerome Y Lettvin, Deborah Porter (reviewed by William Nienhauser, Junior and Kazuo Matsumura), John Lear, Bendt Alster, Norman Newton, Kenneth Brecher and Michael Feirtag, David White, Jane Sellers (Juan Villar? or is he a reference on Sellers?), Linda Schele, Leonora Leet, Jean Richer, Bjorn Jonsson, (probably critical reviews of William Sullivan's book by Gerardo Aldana, Arij Ouweneel, and Susan Niles), N. J. Girardot?, Nedim Vlora and Giuseppe Tucci in 1997, Florence and Kenneth Wood, B. G. Sidharth, Hennie Kruger (review by H.A.J. Kruger ?), Richard Thompson, the Barber and Barber book I mentioned is reviewed at skepticalhumanities.com/category/critical-thinking/ , Roy Taylor 2005, David Kelley and Eugene Milone 2005, Roopa Naragan, Keith M. Hunter and online?, Brian Pellar, David Mathisen, Emmeline Plunket 1908, Rose Hammond (review by Francisco Vaz de Silva), David Pankenier (review by Daniel Patrick Morgan), Gísli Sigurðsson in a 2014 book edited by Timothy Tangherlini, Christopher Johnsen, Martin Sweatman and Alistair Coombs, Alessandro De Lorenzis, Andrew Collins, Klaus Albrecht 2017 in a book edited by Wolfschmidt, Cundrun, Zelia Nuttall, Marion Popenoe Hatch, Gordon Brotherton (has an essay in Myth:  A New Symposium), Clemency Coggins, Giulio Magli, John Major note www.aeonjournal.com/articles/samson/samson.html , Wolfram Eberhard and Rolf Mueller, Edward Schafer, George Cox, Max Müller, John Fiske?, Ernst Siecke, Viktor Rydberg, Abraham Victor Rydberg?, Charles François Dupuis, Noël-Antoine Pluche (1739), Macrobius, Comte de Volney, Anton Krichenbauer, Friedrich Leberecht Wilhelm Schwartz, Eduard Stucken, Georg Hüsing, Hugo Winckler, Alfred Jeremias, Gerald Massey, Albert Churchward, John O'Neill, James Hewitt, George St. Clair, the famous Joseph Campbell made a similar argument, Albert McIlhenny?, Leo Frobenius, Johannes Hertel?, William Robertson Smith?, Aldabert Kuhn?, Carolina Lopez-Ruiz? (reviews by Anthony Mangieri and Johannes Haubold), Harald Haarman and Joan Marler, Mary LeCron Foster, Lionel Sims?, Jacques Cauvin, Alice Kehoe, Mario Codebò, Günter Martiny, Brian Hayden, Carl Jung, René Adolphe Schwaller de Lubicz, John Didier (review by Michael Saso), Godfrey Higgins, Jean Sylvain Bailly, Phil Norfleet,  Abraham Aronow, William Stahlman, Harald Reiche, Roberto Bottini, William Joseph Bisson, John Lear, Vito Francesco Polcaro, Amanda Laoupi www.drgeorgepc.com/DisasterArchSocCultLaoupi.html , E. J. Michael Witzel, Alan Bond and Mark Hempsell?, Leroy Ellenberger, John Major Jenkins note edj.net/mc2012/mill1.htm , Walter Saltzer, Yas Maeyama, Rubellite Johnson, John Mahelona, Sally Weber, Elizabeth Cavicchi, Gerald Gresseth,  Bartel van der Waerden, Abraham Seidenberg, Euan MacKie (critique by Clive Ruggles and Gordon Barclay), Albert Kainzinger, Jerold Matthews, Hilda Davidson, Amanda Barusch, Bradley Schaefer, Hugh Kolb?, Mott T. Greene, Audley-Miller, Lucy and Dignas, Beate, Ernest McClain, Marius Schneider, Michael O’Kelley,   Matt Kane, Constantin Volney, Sabine Baring-Gould, Jarita Holbrook, Alexander Marshack, Thomas McEvilley, David Pingree, Stansbury Hagar, Fritz Röck, David Ulansey on Mithraism, François Henri Stanislas Delaunaye, Robert Taylor, Bál Tilak, James Hewitt, Stansbury Hagar, Franz Schröder, Tara Mata/Laurie Pratt, Eduard Seler, Karl Nowotny, Thomas Barthel, Ferdinand Anders, Witold Balcer, Michael Kamienski, William Stirling etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Catastrophe by David Key might be of interest, but its argument about a worldwide collapse isn't related to precession.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Probably mostly hostile reviews of Hamlet's Mill:  Philip Morrison, Cecilia Payne-Gaposchkin, Edmund Leach (de Santillana replied in the New York Review of Books in 1970; I think there is a link on the relevant Wikipedia page), David Leeming, Rebecca Bradley, Harald Reiche, Philip Morrison, Carroll Quigley, Arthur Meadows, Heino Eelsalu, Bernard de Voto, Michael Feirtag, Jaan Purvel,Lynn White Junior, Geoffrey Kirk, Hilda Davidson, Albert Friedman, Guy Davenport, J.-P. Roux, Frederic Amory, etc.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Graduate research into the authors - Marco Sensi and Eleonora Loiodice in Italy  Obituaries by Nathan Sivin, Uta Lindgren, and Richard Flavin.  More mentions, by Steven Wolfe, Luisa Passerini, Otto Neugebauer, David Lindberg, Charles Olson, Cid Corman, Jason Colavito, and Myrto Petsota.  Elizabeth Eisenstein 1980 refers to de Santillana's review of a book by Yates on Giordano Bruno.  Also, apparently the various editions of Hamlet's Mill have slight differences that might be of interest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Discussions on the History of Astronomy Interest Group listserve Hastro-L: &#xD;&#xA; Information here:  astro.uni-bonn.de/~pbrosche/hist_astr/ha-hastro-l.html ? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This information comes from members.westnet.com.au/gary-david-thompson/page9e.html , but the provider closed down recently.  An email was mentioned.  Gary David Thompson, not an academic in a related field, basically condemns Hamlet's Mill, but he researched its arguments and origins very deeply.  He missed some of the works that cite it, though." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30753" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10838" RevisionGUID="e78da464-cba8-4a0a-8cfa-cafddcf27418" CreationDate="2023-11-02T10:18:22.967" UserId="10746" Text="My mum used to tell me that faeries wore their clothes inside (as they where tricky and contrarian). &#xD;&#xA;Wearing your clothes inside out was a way to fool them into leaving you alone.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She also used to say if you put them on inside out by mistake they would be offended and you'd have a bad day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Two contradictory statements..." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30755" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10839" RevisionGUID="b51ec14c-be8c-4b25-b3dd-ba73807e3d41" CreationDate="2023-11-02T13:59:02.053" UserId="10748" Text="I am building a 6500:1 cardboard model of the Mount Rose ski resort. The whole model has a thickness of 4.5 inches at its highest point, located on one of the sides of the model. While the rest of the model tries to stick to reality as much as possible (measurements were adapted from satellite altitude data), I'm thinking about including some kind of easter egg on one of the side of the model. For instance some kind of a Bigfoot cave, or something playful in the same taste.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This being said, I'd love for this little addition to be anchored in the local native folklore.&#xD;&#xA;I couldn't find any reference to underground life / beings / concepts in the legends of the Washoe people with a quick google search though. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Do you know of a native Western American tale / concept / etc that could be represented underground on the side of my cardboard model?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any help or tips would be appreciated" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30757" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10839" RevisionGUID="b51ec14c-be8c-4b25-b3dd-ba73807e3d41" CreationDate="2023-11-02T13:59:02.053" UserId="10748" Text="Washoe people: Legends and myths of the underground" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30758" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10839" RevisionGUID="b51ec14c-be8c-4b25-b3dd-ba73807e3d41" CreationDate="2023-11-02T13:59:02.053" UserId="10748" Text="|native-american|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30759" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="1261" RevisionGUID="71a210a0-419b-4e16-99b2-155ca03d067f" CreationDate="2023-11-09T22:25:38.413" UserId="188" Comment="Dead Link fix" Text="Have you heard of the Thompson Motif Index? It's a huge 6 volume index of folklore from various cultures, organized by motif. [It's also available for free online.][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Looking at the index, there are a lot of entries for &quot;water spirit as woman.&quot; I've listed the entires below:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; F420.1.2. †F420.1.2. **Water-spirit as woman** (water-nymph, water-nix). (Cf. †F423.1.) *Type 316; *BP III 322; *Fb “nøkke” II 725ab.--England, Ireland, Wales: Baughman, Ireland: Beal VII 11; Norse: MacCulloch Eddic 261; Finnish-Swedish: Wessman 55 Nos. 468--469; Finnish: Aarne FFC XXXIII 44 No. 58; Germanic: Meyer Germanen 199ff., 202ff., De la Saussaye 323; Slavic: Máchal 254f., 271f.; Estonian: Aarne FFC XXV 126 No. 58; Livonian: Loorits FFC LXVI 42 No. 30; Armenian: Ananikian 84; Japanese: Ikeda.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; F420.1.2.1. †F420.1.2.1. **Water-maidens are of unusual beauty**. German: Ebermann Elbsagen 115 (No. 66), Meier I 67 (No. 1); French: Sébillot France II 196, 345; Icelandic: Boberg.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, there are also a lot of entries for &quot;Water-spirit as man.&quot; For example:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; F420.1.1. †F420.1.1. Water-spirit as man. Takelau (New Zealand):&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Beckwith Myth 150.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; F420.1.1.1. †F420.1.1.1. Water-spirit appears as handsome man. German:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ebermann Elbsagen 93 (No. 55); French: Sébillot France II 409;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Finnish-Swedish: Wessman 57 No. 487.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; F420.1.1.2. †F420.1.1.2. Water-spirit appears as black man. German:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Knoop 89 (No. 145), Sommert 108.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; F420.1.1.3. †F420.1.1.3. Water-spirit as small gray man. Has green&#xD;&#xA;&gt; eyes and gray hair. Tobler 99.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; F420.1.1.4. †F420.1.1.4. Water-spirit as man clothed in white and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; accompanied by a dozen attendants. Chinese: Werner 182.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, there are equally as many entries for &quot;Water-spirit as animal&quot;. There are actually too many examples for me to quote in this answer, but some examples are:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; F420.1.3.2. †F420.1.3.2. Water-spirit as fish. Tobler 97; Icelandic: Boberg, German: Henne-Am Rhyn 113 (No. 216), Ebermann Elbsagen 74 (No. 39); French: Sébillot France II 196.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;F420.1.3.3. †F420.1.3.3. Water-spirit as horse. England, Scotland, Ireland: Baughman; Icelandic: Boberg; Danish: Kristensen Danske Sagn (1893) 163ff., (1928) 112ff.; Norwegian: Solheim Register 17; Swedish: Hartmann 27; German: Künzig Badische 31 (No. 87), Karstens Sagen 79.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, there is also &quot;water spirit in abnormal form.&quot; Again, there are too many entries for me to list here, but a few examples are...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; F420.1.4.5. †F420.1.4.5. Water-spirits with human body and webbed feet and hands. Tobler 98; German: Henne-Am Rhyn 113, Pröhle Deutsche Sagen 153 (No. 119); French: Sébillot France II 403.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; F420.1.4.8. †F420.1.4.8. Water-spirits with green teeth. England: Baughman; German: Schöppner I 219--223, Schultze-Gallara 23; French: Sébillot France II 343 (green eyes).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**So no, I wouldn't say that there is a &quot;preponderance of seductive water nymphs in mythology.&quot;** Women might be slightly more popular, but men, animals, and &quot;abnormal forms&quot; are also significantly represented.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.ruthenia.ru/folklore/thompson/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30760" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="1261" RevisionGUID="71a210a0-419b-4e16-99b2-155ca03d067f" CreationDate="2023-11-09T22:25:38.413" Comment="Proposed by 188 approved by 53 edit id of 1941" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30763" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10840" RevisionGUID="47a15e67-78f2-48c5-a4ce-e6158208f734" CreationDate="2023-11-15T21:52:52.943" UserId="10783" Text="It seems that during the time of the Dorian conquests that the Local Mycenean men were away at Troy and the Dorians combined Cretian &amp; Mycenean myths with their own to give the Dorians a birthright to the land. The return of Odysseus created a dilemma that was resolved with a ridiculous myth about where Odysseus had been and the question of his return. Re-writing history was common in ancient times for political reasons and I suspect Odysseus was a sea people who got beat bad in Egypt and returned in shame to find his homeland conquered. I suspect all Greek history was re-written into myth during this period, that Perseus &amp; Achilles were combined into Hercules, the prefix and suffix combined to make Perchilles... and even more ridiculous changes. The overall purpose of political re-writing was an attempt to hide their involvement with the sea people, their destruction of the world around them and the shame of their ultimate defeat." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30765" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10841" RevisionGUID="3ff449c7-b50b-4631-bd23-2806a2001c7c" CreationDate="2023-11-15T22:50:49.903" UserId="10783" Text="Before modern sapiens had full cognition all mammals operated with their emotional cognition that has about 20 pre-programmed responses to external stimuli. We still use it when we cry, laugh, yawn or fight and it understands the world the same way an animal understands the world. There are still about 200,000 people in Africa with over 10% archaic admixture and up to 19% of their total profile. These people function with their emotional cognition and can't understand the world. They explain the world thru superstition and Gods. Gods that are happy or angry who live in every mountain, hill, lake, stream, mudhole... They have 1000's of Gods who make the wind, rain and sky.. Water Gods however are the most important and most individualized. This super-pantheon of Gods is also seen in archaic European religion,. the commonality between African folk Voodoo and European Pagans can be seen in their individual Gods for every water hole and their lack of understanding between cause and effect. Although the European of 500 bc was fully conscious his religion was a relic from emotional cognition and a dreamtime type existence.&#xD;&#xA;The association between death &amp; water once confused me because water is life. But in the months before my widowmaker heart attack I became attracted to water to ease pain. I would lay in the shower for hours and got $300 hot water bills that I did'nt care about. In the last month before I died I spent about 10 hours a day in the shower or tub just lounging and living in it. Death is very attracted to water and I could'nt resist it. As soon as I would wake up it was the only place I wanted to be. Purple and black they brought me back and stuffed 2 stents in. My skin turned pink and steam started rising from my chest, back, head &amp; armpits. Suddenly my attraction to water ended and now I know why wildlife seeks out waterholes to die and why waterholes are part of the mystery of life &amp; death." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30767" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10841" RevisionGUID="455f6390-48fa-48f7-b836-7f442274b8d0" CreationDate="2023-11-15T22:57:31.067" UserId="10783" Comment="added 133 characters in body" Text="Before modern sapiens had full cognition all mammals operated with their emotional cognition that has about 20 pre-programmed responses to external stimuli. We still use it when we cry, laugh, yawn or fight and it understands the world the same way an animal understands the world. There are still about 200,000 people in Africa with over 10% archaic admixture and up to 19% of their total profile. These people function with their emotional cognition and can't understand the world. They explain the world thru superstition and Gods. Gods that are happy or angry who live in every mountain, hill, lake, stream, mudhole... They have 1000's of Gods who make the wind, rain and sky.. Water Gods however are the most important and most individualized. This super-pantheon of Gods is also seen in archaic European religion,. the commonality between African folk Voodoo and European Pagans can be seen in their individual Gods for every water hole and their lack of understanding between cause and effect. Although the European of 500 bc was fully conscious his religion was a relic from emotional cognition and a dreamtime type existence.&#xD;&#xA;The association between death &amp; water once confused me because water is life. But in the months before my widowmaker heart attack I became attracted to water to ease pain. I would lay in the shower for hours and got $300 hot water bills that I did'nt care about. In the last month before I died I spent about 10 hours a day in the shower or tub just lounging and living in it. Death is very attracted to water and I could'nt resist it. As soon as I would wake up it was the only place I wanted to be. Purple and black they brought me back and stuffed 2 stents in. I was in hospice and sure to die soon but my skin turned pink and steam started rising from my chest, back, head &amp; armpits. Suddenly my attraction to water ended and for me this was a signal that the doctors might be wrong, that I will live. Now, 6 years later I know why wildlife seeks out waterholes to die and why waterholes are part of the mystery of life &amp; death." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30768" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10841" RevisionGUID="741cdba0-a078-46ee-836f-81ec62146829" CreationDate="2023-11-15T23:00:42.953" UserId="10783" Comment="deleted 1 character in body" Text="Before modern sapiens had full cognition all mammals operated with their emotional cognition that has about 20 pre-programmed responses to external stimuli. We still use it when we cry, laugh, yawn or fight and it understands the world the same way an animal understands the world. There are still about 200,000 people in Africa with over 10% archaic admixture and up to 19% of their total profile. These people function with their emotional cognition and can't understand the world. They explain the world thru superstition and Gods. Gods that are happy or angry who live in every mountain, hill, lake, stream, mudhole... They have 1000's of Gods who make the wind, rain and sky.. Water Gods however are the most important and most individualized. This super-pantheon of Gods is also seen in archaic European religion,. the commonality between African folk Voodoo and European Pagans can be seen in their individual Gods for every water hole and their lack of understanding between cause and effect. Although the European of 500 bc was fully conscious his religion was a relic from emotional cognition and a dreamtime type existence.&#xD;&#xA;The association between death &amp; water once confused me because water is life. But in the months before my widowmaker heart attack I became attracted to water to ease pain. I would lay in the shower for hours and got $300 hot water bills that I did'nt care about. In the last month before I died I spent about 10 hours a day in the shower or tub just lounging and living in it. Death is very attracted to water and I could'nt resist it. As soon as I would wake up it was the only place I wanted to be. Purple and black they brought me back and stuffed 2 stents in. I was in hospice and sure to die soon but my skin turned pink and steam started rising from my chest, back, head &amp; armpits. Suddenly my attraction to water ended and for me this was a signal that the doctors might be wrong, that I will live. Now, 6 years later I know why wildlife seek out waterholes to die and why waterholes are part of the mystery of life &amp; death." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30769" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10842" RevisionGUID="8666d671-e947-42fb-aacd-859fc6ecc040" CreationDate="2023-11-15T23:34:02.967" UserId="10783" Text="I'm not native but went to school with Acoma, Laguna, Zuni and Navajo kids. The Acoma have a very cool story about the destruction of the earth and how they lived underground for generations with the &quot;ant people&quot;. When the disaster ended they emerged to find that they were alone and the only people left, that they must repopulate the earth. This is how they became the Original people of mankind. Their populations grew and grew and life was good until an invader from the north appeared that was horrorific looking and inhuman. The invade won and won until the tribes united and made an effort to exterminate the &quot;ancient enemy&quot;. An army was sent north to confront them with orders to kill them all and search for their camps and origin. It became a battle of civilizations for possession of the earth. The tribes were sucessful and drove the invader out thru the same route they entered and the tribes crossed the ocean in pursuit. Their orders were to exterminate the sub-human anywhere they found them and make earth for humans only. The army never returned and for eons the tribes waited for a sign for who won the Great War. When the Spanish 1st arrived the Natives were relieved, humans had won the war and come full circle to return home. They had been gone for so long that they had forgotten their fathers yet the fathers are proud of their conquest and end their cycle of life on earth knowing that their children, all of man, will inherit the earth and that the earth will forever belong to them. The Acoma believe I am a child of their lost army. That we all are their children. This is the most beautiful creation story I've ever heard and for as long as they believe, so will I." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30777" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10845" RevisionGUID="c9a7ee53-268d-4ccf-8f36-1f2f1d3362ac" CreationDate="2023-11-17T08:07:23.467" UserId="4295" Text="I notice that Celtic sounding words are very sing_song. Is there a connection with this rhythm and their symbolics ? Celtic knot, for example." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30779" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10845" RevisionGUID="c9a7ee53-268d-4ccf-8f36-1f2f1d3362ac" CreationDate="2023-11-17T08:07:23.467" UserId="4295" Text="What is the relationship between cetic harmonics and celtic symbol" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30780" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10845" RevisionGUID="c9a7ee53-268d-4ccf-8f36-1f2f1d3362ac" CreationDate="2023-11-17T08:07:23.467" UserId="4295" Text="|celtic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30781" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10846" RevisionGUID="bfcd3a58-36f5-471f-86d1-27e06a37ae89" CreationDate="2023-11-17T23:54:52.197" UserId="10789" Text="My understanding is that,  originally,  the Hydra was a single-headed serpent and the multi-head angle was only introduced later into the myth.  I do know that there is a tendency to mistake the accounts of later poets,  such as Hesiod,  with the actual myths." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30785" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10835" RevisionGUID="d682d729-d399-46d9-8773-21e83d0fdb6c" CreationDate="2023-11-18T04:58:17.177" UserId="10733" Comment="I added another book title." Text="I've also been looking for citations.  Hamlet's Mill is referenced to varying degrees in:  When They Severed Earth from Sky by Elizabeth Wayland Barber and Paul T Barber, Wisdom of the Myth Tellers by Sean Kane, Book of the Sun by Marcell Jankovics, The Seven Story Tower:  A Mythic Journey Through Space and Time by Curtiss Hoffman, The Transformation of the Hummingbird:  Cultural Roots of a Zinacantecan Mythical Poem By Eva Hunt, The End of Time: The Maya Mystery of 2012 by Anthony Aveni, Signs in the Sky:  The Astrological and Archaeological Evidence for the Birth of a New Age by Adrian Geoffrey Gilbert, Myth:  A New Symposium (which cites Cosmology, History, and Theology edited by Yourgrau and Breck, as if that book refers to Hamlet's Mill, but I skimmed it and didn't see any references), The Myth of Replacement:  Stars, Gods, and Order in the Universe, The Saturn Myth by David N Talbott, The Power of the Bull  by Michael Rice, The Invisible Landscape:  Mind, Hallucinogens, and the I Ching by Terrence and Dennis McKenna, Maya Cosmogenesis 2012:  The True Meaning of the Maya Calendar End-Date by John Major Jenkins, Imaginary Landscape:  Making Worlds of Myth and Science by William Irwin Thompson, etc.  This list includes books by both academics and popular works, and a few of them are critical of the arguments in Hamlet's Mill.  There could be misspellings in the titles and names.  I might have once found a book with Plato in its title (?), but then I lost track of it and forgot the title.  There was a very extensive website on these topics by Australian Gary David Thompson that listed many works that refer to Hamlet's Mill and had detailed biographical information about the authors, though I think it was completely against the book's arguments, but its web hosting service shut down around August or September 2023.  Maybe it can be found archived or will by reposted at some point.  I might have copies of some pages and there is the Internet Wayback Machine.  I didn't know about J Saul and Harald Reiche.  There might be additional references listed under axial precession, astrological age, Mithraism, etc on Wikipedia.  I think Worthen and/or Rice note arguments about Mithraism and precession.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Addition - Actually, Gary David Thompson's website was preserved on web.archive.org/  Skimming, Thompson mentions these authors as referring to Hamlet's Mill or making similar or related arguments and some are cited in Hamlet's Mill:  Jerome Y Lettvin, Deborah Porter (reviewed by William Nienhauser, Junior and Kazuo Matsumura), John Lear, Bendt Alster, Norman Newton, Kenneth Brecher and Michael Feirtag, David White, Jane Sellers (Juan Villar? or is he a reference on Sellers?), Linda Schele, Leonora Leet, Jean Richer, Bjorn Jonsson, (probably critical reviews of William Sullivan's book by Gerardo Aldana, Arij Ouweneel, and Susan Niles), N. J. Girardot?, Nedim Vlora and Giuseppe Tucci in 1997, Florence and Kenneth Wood, B. G. Sidharth, Hennie Kruger (review by H.A.J. Kruger ?), Richard Thompson, the Barber and Barber book I mentioned is reviewed at skepticalhumanities.com/category/critical-thinking/ , Roy Taylor 2005, David Kelley and Eugene Milone 2005, Roopa Naragan, Keith M. Hunter and online?, Brian Pellar, David Mathisen, Emmeline Plunket 1908, Rose Hammond (review by Francisco Vaz de Silva), David Pankenier (review by Daniel Patrick Morgan), Gísli Sigurðsson in a 2014 book edited by Timothy Tangherlini, Christopher Johnsen, Martin Sweatman and Alistair Coombs, Alessandro De Lorenzis, Andrew Collins, Klaus Albrecht 2017 in a book edited by Wolfschmidt, Cundrun, Zelia Nuttall, Marion Popenoe Hatch, Gordon Brotherton (has an essay in Myth:  A New Symposium), Clemency Coggins, Giulio Magli, John Major note www.aeonjournal.com/articles/samson/samson.html , Wolfram Eberhard and Rolf Mueller, Edward Schafer, George Cox, Max Müller, John Fiske?, Ernst Siecke, Viktor Rydberg, Abraham Victor Rydberg?, Charles François Dupuis, Noël-Antoine Pluche (1739), Macrobius, Comte de Volney, Anton Krichenbauer, Friedrich Leberecht Wilhelm Schwartz, Eduard Stucken, Georg Hüsing, Hugo Winckler, Alfred Jeremias, Gerald Massey, Albert Churchward, John O'Neill, James Hewitt, George St. Clair, the famous Joseph Campbell made a similar argument, Albert McIlhenny?, Leo Frobenius, Johannes Hertel?, William Robertson Smith?, Aldabert Kuhn?, Carolina Lopez-Ruiz? (reviews by Anthony Mangieri and Johannes Haubold), Harald Haarman and Joan Marler, Mary LeCron Foster, Lionel Sims?, Jacques Cauvin, Alice Kehoe, Mario Codebò, Günter Martiny, Brian Hayden, Carl Jung, René Adolphe Schwaller de Lubicz, John Didier (review by Michael Saso), Godfrey Higgins, Jean Sylvain Bailly, Phil Norfleet,  Abraham Aronow, William Stahlman, Harald Reiche, Roberto Bottini, William Joseph Bisson, John Lear, Vito Francesco Polcaro, Amanda Laoupi www.drgeorgepc.com/DisasterArchSocCultLaoupi.html , E. J. Michael Witzel, Alan Bond and Mark Hempsell?, Leroy Ellenberger, John Major Jenkins note edj.net/mc2012/mill1.htm , Walter Saltzer, Yas Maeyama, Rubellite Johnson, John Mahelona, Sally Weber, Elizabeth Cavicchi, Gerald Gresseth,  Bartel van der Waerden, Abraham Seidenberg, Euan MacKie (critique by Clive Ruggles and Gordon Barclay), Albert Kainzinger, Jerold Matthews, Hilda Davidson, Amanda Barusch, Bradley Schaefer, Hugh Kolb?, Mott T. Greene, Audley-Miller, Lucy and Dignas, Beate, Ernest McClain, Marius Schneider, Michael O’Kelley,   Matt Kane, Constantin Volney, Sabine Baring-Gould, Jarita Holbrook, Alexander Marshack, Thomas McEvilley, David Pingree, Stansbury Hagar, Fritz Röck, David Ulansey on Mithraism, François Henri Stanislas Delaunaye, Robert Taylor, Bál Tilak, James Hewitt, Stansbury Hagar, Franz Schröder, Tara Mata/Laurie Pratt, Eduard Seler, Karl Nowotny, Thomas Barthel, Ferdinand Anders, Witold Balcer, Michael Kamienski, William Stirling etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Catastrophe by David Key might be of interest, but its argument about a worldwide collapse isn't related to precession.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Probably mostly hostile reviews of Hamlet's Mill:  Philip Morrison, Cecilia Payne-Gaposchkin, Edmund Leach (de Santillana replied in the New York Review of Books in 1970; I think there is a link on the relevant Wikipedia page), David Leeming, Rebecca Bradley, Harald Reiche, Philip Morrison, Carroll Quigley, Arthur Meadows, Heino Eelsalu, Bernard de Voto, Michael Feirtag, Jaan Purvel,Lynn White Junior, Geoffrey Kirk, Hilda Davidson, Albert Friedman, Guy Davenport, J.-P. Roux, Frederic Amory, etc.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Graduate research into the authors - Marco Sensi and Eleonora Loiodice in Italy  Obituaries by Nathan Sivin, Uta Lindgren, and Richard Flavin.  More mentions, by Steven Wolfe, Luisa Passerini, Otto Neugebauer, David Lindberg, Charles Olson, Cid Corman, Jason Colavito, and Myrto Petsota.  Elizabeth Eisenstein 1980 refers to de Santillana's review of a book by Yates on Giordano Bruno.  Also, apparently the various editions of Hamlet's Mill have slight differences that might be of interest.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Discussions on the History of Astronomy Interest Group listserve Hastro-L: &#xD;&#xA; Information here:  astro.uni-bonn.de/~pbrosche/hist_astr/ha-hastro-l.html ? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This information comes from members.westnet.com.au/gary-david-thompson/page9e.html , but the provider closed down recently.  An email was mentioned.  Gary David Thompson, not an academic in a related field, basically condemns Hamlet's Mill, but he researched its arguments and origins very deeply.  He missed some of the works that cite it, though.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Another addition:  There is an article by von Dechend in Festschrift: W Hartner, but I don't know the content." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30786" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10847" RevisionGUID="d6179a2b-9026-41c4-94ad-bb3c2bc943d1" CreationDate="2023-11-18T05:18:29.353" UserId="4962" Text="I asked [Mythos Guide GPT][1] your question. Here’s the response:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Ah, Dante's journey through the Malebolge, a vivid and complex part of his descent into Hell in &quot;The Divine Comedy.&quot; This eighth circle of Hell, distinct in its structure and the variety of sins it punishes, is indeed where Dante and his guide Virgil spend a considerable amount of time. The reasons for this extended stay are as intriguing as the stories it contains.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Malebolge, literally meaning &quot;evil ditches,&quot; is a place of diverse and specific sins, each punished in a uniquely fitting manner. This circle is reserved for those guilty of deliberate, malicious fraud, and is divided into ten different bolgias or ditches, each punishing a different form of deceit:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. **Seducers and Panderers**: These sinners are whipped by demons as they walk.&#xD;&#xA;2. **Flatterers**: They are submerged in human excrement, reflecting their insincere flattery in life.&#xD;&#xA;3. **Simony**: Here, simonists are placed upside down in rock holes with their feet set on fire.&#xD;&#xA;4. **Sorcerers and False Prophets**: Their heads are twisted around on their bodies.&#xD;&#xA;5. **Corrupt Politicians**: They are immersed in a lake of boiling pitch.&#xD;&#xA;6. **Hypocrites**: They walk in gilded cloaks lined with lead.&#xD;&#xA;7. **Thieves**: These souls are pursued and bitten by snakes and lizards.&#xD;&#xA;8. **Evil Counselors**: They are concealed within individual flames.&#xD;&#xA;9. **Sowers of Discord**: They are mutilated by a demon with a sword.&#xD;&#xA;10. **Falsifiers**: They suffer from various diseases.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The reason Dante gives so much attention to Malebolge could be multifaceted:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. **Complexity of Sins**: Malebolge showcases a wide array of sins, each distinct and requiring detailed description. This diversity captures Dante's intricate understanding of human vices and the complexity of fraudulent acts.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. **Artistic and Didactic Purpose**: Dante uses this opportunity to demonstrate his poetic skill, creating vivid, memorable images and punishments that correspond symbolically to each sin. It's also a chance for him to provide moral lessons on the consequences of deceit and fraud.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. **Political and Personal Commentary**: Dante uses Malebolge to comment on the political and religious corruption of his time. Many of those he encounters in this circle are contemporaries or historical figures, allowing him to criticize and immortalize their deeds.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;4. **Theological Significance**: In Dante's scheme of Hell, sins of fraud, especially those against those who trusted the sinner, are considered more grievous than sins of passion or violence. Thus, they are placed lower in Hell and given more narrative weight.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The journey through Malebolge is rich with allegory, symbolism, and vivid imagery, making it a compelling and significant part of &quot;The Divine Comedy.&quot; It's a testament to Dante's genius in blending personal, political, and theological elements into a cohesive and powerful narrative. How do you find the intertwining of these elements in Dante's portrayal of Malebolge?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://chat.openai.com/g/g-8DLXkCfp7-mythos-guide" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30788" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10848" RevisionGUID="119820db-fd87-4a82-bf69-c4311ebdb25c" CreationDate="2023-11-18T05:24:53.370" UserId="4962" Text="I asked [Mythos Guide GPT][1] your question. Here is the response:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Epic of Gilgamesh, an ancient Mesopotamian poem regarded as one of the earliest works of literary fiction, presents a fascinating and complex narrative. In the first episode, we encounter Shamash, the sun god, assisting the trapper against Enkidu, which might initially seem perplexing, especially considering Enkidu's divine creation to balance Gilgamesh's tyrannical rule.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To understand Shamash's action, we must delve into the context and the characters:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;1. **Shamash's Role**: In Mesopotamian mythology, Shamash is the god of the sun and justice, often seen as a divine arbiter and a guide to heroes. His intervention in human affairs is typically aimed at maintaining balance and order.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;2. **Enkidu's Purpose**: Enkidu was created by the gods as a counterbalance to Gilgamesh, who was oppressing his people. Enkidu, living among animals and embodying the natural, untamed world, is initially seen as an outsider to human civilization.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;3. **The Trapper's Plight**: The trapper encounters Enkidu, who is disrupting his livelihood by freeing animals from traps. From the trapper's perspective, and likely from a civilized viewpoint, Enkidu is seen as a problem that needs to be addressed.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When Shamash assists the trapper by suggesting how to tame Enkidu (through the introduction of Shamhat, a temple prostitute), it can be interpreted in several ways:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **Maintaining Order**: Shamash's guidance could be seen as a way to maintain social order. Enkidu's actions, though innocent, are disrupting the human world. Shamash's intervention aids in integrating Enkidu into human society, which is a necessary step for him to fulfill his destiny.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **Destined Encounter**: Shamash’s help might also be part of a divine plan to bring Enkidu and Gilgamesh together. Their meeting and subsequent friendship are central to the narrative and to Gilgamesh's development as a character.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- **Civilization vs. Nature**: This episode also symbolizes the tension between civilization and the wild. Shamash, as a deity revered by civilized people, might naturally side with the trapper, representing the human world's efforts to tame or control nature, which Enkidu embodies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In essence, Shamash's assistance to the trapper can be seen as a catalyst for Enkidu's transformation and the unfolding of the epic’s central themes, including friendship, heroism, and the search for immortality. It's a nuanced moment where divine intervention serves to advance the larger narrative and thematic elements of the epic. How do you interpret the complexities of divine roles and motivations in such ancient myths?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://chat.openai.com/g/g-8DLXkCfp7-mythos-guide" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30794" PostHistoryTypeId="33" PostId="6464" RevisionGUID="8d01270d-5beb-4f49-a02d-9100628e5f90" CreationDate="2023-11-18T21:32:38.753" UserId="742" Comment="135" />
  <row Id="30795" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10851" RevisionGUID="92674328-9c26-414b-8e28-1fa0dd408320" CreationDate="2023-11-20T18:48:05.687" UserId="6161" Text="I have looked into many historical leaders who have, as a defensive tactic, or by the repercussions of their indulgent or careless actions, factored into some downfall of their nation or empire, such as Hitler, Gorbachev, and some of the nastier Roman emperors.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am, however, not looking for a mythical ruler who caused this downfall by consequence of their actions or personal protection. I want to know if there are any stories of rulers in any mythology, rulers who (preferably) single-handedly built a town/city/empire and decided, after witnessing some malfunction or horrors within the domain, to destroy what they had built and betray the people they had led.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Any variants are appreciated, but I'm looking for specificity here." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30797" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10851" RevisionGUID="92674328-9c26-414b-8e28-1fa0dd408320" CreationDate="2023-11-20T18:48:05.687" UserId="6161" Text="Are there any myths of rulers who have built and destroyed their own domains?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30798" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10851" RevisionGUID="92674328-9c26-414b-8e28-1fa0dd408320" CreationDate="2023-11-20T18:48:05.687" UserId="6161" Text="|comparative|rulers|construction|ruin|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30799" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10852" RevisionGUID="814c4331-ab11-4568-b212-e58d3062ad61" CreationDate="2023-11-20T19:05:05.197" UserId="6161" Text="*NOTE: MATURE CONTENT&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story of [Enkidu][1] and [Shamhat][2] from *The Epic of Gilgamesh* comes to mind. Enkidu is considered a &quot;wild man&quot; in the sense that he lived alongside animals following his birth until the temple prostitute Shamhat was sent to &quot;civilize&quot; him through the act of love-making, after which Enkidu joins civilization and becomes best friends with Gilgamesh.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The part of the narrative that might interest you most is the specification of how many days in a row Enkidu and Shamhat engaged in sex.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The following is a passage from Tablet I of the Kovacs translation that describes the event.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Then Shamhat saw him--a primitive, / &#xD;&#xA;a savage fellow from the depths of the wilderness! /&#xD;&#xA;&quot;That is he, Shamhat! Release your clenched arms, /&#xD;&#xA;expose your sex so he can take in your voluptuousness. /&#xD;&#xA;Do not be restrained--take his energy! /&#xD;&#xA;When he sees you he will draw near to you. /&#xD;&#xA;Spread out your robe so he can lie upon you, /&#xD;&#xA;and perform for this primitive the task of womankind! /&#xD;&#xA;His animals, who grew up in his wilderness, will become alien to him, /&#xD;&#xA;and his lust will groan over you.&quot; /&#xD;&#xA;Shamhat unclutched her bosom, exposed her sex, and he took in her voluptuousness. /&#xD;&#xA;She was not restrained, but took his energy. /&#xD;&#xA;She spread out her robe and he lay upon her, /&#xD;&#xA;she performed for the primitive the task of womankind. /&#xD;&#xA;His lust groaned over her; /&#xD;&#xA;for six days and seven nights Enkidu stayed aroused, /&#xD;&#xA;and had intercourse with the harlot /&#xD;&#xA;until he was sated with her charms.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Translated by Maureen Gallery Kovacs&#xD;&#xA;Electronic Edition by Wolf Carnahan, I998][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enkidu&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamhat&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.ancienttexts.org/library/mesopotamian/gilgamesh/tab1.htm" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30802" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10853" RevisionGUID="2c470b7e-69b1-4df7-9f8f-32606eb28676" CreationDate="2023-11-23T02:15:11.260" UserId="9534" Text="I always eat noodles on Friday, as do adherents of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster; see [this excerpt](http://spaghettimonster.com/church-of-the-flying-spaghetti-monster-founded/the-gospel-of-the-flying-spaghetti-monster/) from [*The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster* (Henderson 2006)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gospel_of_the_Flying_Spaghetti_Monster) for explanation of the significance of Friday. Some folks, like Imgur user &quot;IDontCareAtAllButIShould&quot;, eat pasta on Wednesday; see [`fsm wednesday` tagged galleries on Imgur](https://imgur.com/t/fsm_wednesday) for dozens of their Wednesday posts. **What myths support these traditions?** More specifically, **why do some people prefer Wednesday for pasta, while others prefer Friday for noodles?**" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30804" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10853" RevisionGUID="2c470b7e-69b1-4df7-9f8f-32606eb28676" CreationDate="2023-11-23T02:15:11.260" UserId="9534" Text="According to Pastafarian myth, which day of the week is for pasta?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30805" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10853" RevisionGUID="2c470b7e-69b1-4df7-9f8f-32606eb28676" CreationDate="2023-11-23T02:15:11.260" UserId="9534" Text="|calendar-dates|pastafarianism|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30806" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10854" RevisionGUID="542db320-786d-459d-b106-e60c749af3e5" CreationDate="2023-11-24T00:28:25.290" UserId="6920" Text="It's an [advertising slogan][1].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Most days, Anthony takes his time going home, But not today. Today is Wednesday, and as every family in the North End of Boston will tell you, Wednesday is Prince Spaghetti Day.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://dagostinopasta.com/blogs/all-about-pasta/why-wednesday-is-spaghetti-day" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30810" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10856" RevisionGUID="502b4fe4-3365-4194-88e5-acd8dddd9063" CreationDate="2023-11-24T14:33:24.113" UserId="3989" Text="In Hebrew myth, Yahweh made and peopled the world ([Gen. 1][1]) but then, because of inhabitant misconduct, repented and flooded it ([Gen. 6.5-7.22][2]).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%201&amp;version=NRSVUE&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%206.5-7.22&amp;version=NRSVUE" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30812" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10857" RevisionGUID="5c2b6e5a-9984-423a-8e7b-b147e8b5f94c" CreationDate="2023-11-25T19:14:11.793" UserId="7095" Text="Alexander Kulik in his paper &quot;The Gods of Nahor: A Note on the Pantheon of the Apocalypse of Abraham&quot;, *Journal of Jewish Studies* 54 (2003), pp. 228-232 suggested the following meanings for the names:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Barisatu** (varyingly spelled 'Varisatu') -&gt; Aramaic בר אשת(א), Bar Eshta = &quot;fiery&quot;/&quot;son of fire&quot;. Being the wooden god used by Abraham in the story to stoke the fire, this name makes sense. This suggestion was first [made][1] by Louis Ginzberg.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Nakhon** (varyingly spelled 'Nakhin') -&gt; Hebrew נכון = &quot;steady&quot;. This god stands steady as opposed to Maroumat, the stone god which fell at its feet.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Maroumat** (varyingly spelled 'Maroumaf') -&gt; Aramaic מר אומת(א), Mar Umata = &quot;Lord of the nation&quot;. Kulik suggests that this title is connected with Maroumat's head being placed on the body of another statue, similar to how Roman emperors' statutes were altered (for example: Suetonius, [*De Vita Caesarum IV (Caligula)*, 22][2]). The name Mar Umata may be the Aramaic version of something like the Greek *κύριος ἔθνος* or Latin *dominus populi*, i.e., a divinized Roman emperor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kulik found the last deities, Zoukh(e) and Yoavon, to be more difficult, but suggested the following:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Zoukh(e)** -&gt; Greek *Ζεωχ* which appears in Hellenistic Greek Magical Papyri (PGM) as the name of a deity. This god appears in particular papyrus, a version of a prayer to Helios, together with 'Yao', interchanged with the forms 'Yavo', 'Yavou' and 'Yaou' (*Ιαω*, *Ιαβω*, *Ιαβου*, *Ιαου*). This latter may be **Yoavon**, the god standing next to Zoukh(e) in the story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/361-abraham-apocalypse-of#:~:text=He%20threw%20the%20wooden%20idol%20Barisat&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Suetonius/12Caesars/Caligula*.html#:~:text=But%20on%20being,in%20their%20place" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30814" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10857" RevisionGUID="c51810e2-c643-4d70-b673-920835795acd" CreationDate="2023-11-26T04:28:52.123" UserId="7095" Comment="added 23 characters in body" Text="Alexander Kulik in his paper &quot;The Gods of Nahor: A Note on the Pantheon of the Apocalypse of Abraham&quot;, *Journal of Jewish Studies* 54 (2003), pp. 228-232 suggested the following meanings for the names:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Barisatu** (varyingly spelled 'Varisatu') -&gt; Aramaic בר אשת(א), Bar Eshta = &quot;fiery&quot;/&quot;son of fire&quot;. Being the wooden god used by Abraham in the story to stoke the fire, this name makes sense. This suggestion was first [made][1] by Louis Ginzberg.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Nakhon** (varyingly spelled 'Nakhin') -&gt; Hebrew נכון = &quot;steady&quot;. This god stands steady as opposed to Maroumat, the stone god which fell at its feet.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Maroumat** (varyingly spelled 'Maroumaf') -&gt; Aramaic מר אומת(א), Mar Umata = &quot;Lord of the nation&quot;. Kulik suggests that this title is connected with Maroumat's head being placed on the body of another statue, similar to how Roman emperors' statutes were altered (for example: Suetonius, [*De Vita Caesarum IV (Caligula)*, 22][2]). The name Mar Umata may be the Aramaic version of something like the Greek *κύριος ἔθνος* or Latin *dominus populi*, i.e., a divinized Roman emperor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kulik found the last deities, Zoukh(e) and Yoavon, to be more difficult, but suggested the following:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Zoukh(e)** -&gt; Greek *Ζεωχ* which appears in Hellenistic Greek Magical Papyri (PGM) as the name of a deity. This god appears, among other places, in a particular papyrus, a version of a prayer to Helios, together with 'Yao', interchanged with the forms 'Yavo', 'Yavou' and 'Yaou' (*Ιαω*, *Ιαβω*, *Ιαβου*, *Ιαου*). This latter may be **Yoavon**, the god standing next to Zoukh(e) in the story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/361-abraham-apocalypse-of#:~:text=He%20threw%20the%20wooden%20idol%20Barisat&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Suetonius/12Caesars/Caligula*.html#:~:text=But%20on%20being,in%20their%20place" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30815" PostHistoryTypeId="34" PostId="6464" RevisionGUID="095695ce-803a-4ce9-8f0c-ce45d783b233" CreationDate="2023-11-26T23:08:56.087" UserId="-1" Comment="135" />
  <row Id="30827" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10857" RevisionGUID="481854ff-c854-4ba4-9c61-42ca1465cb3e" CreationDate="2023-11-29T09:47:40.910" UserId="7095" Comment="added 29 characters in body" Text="Alexander Kulik in his paper &quot;The Gods of Nahor: A Note on the Pantheon of the Apocalypse of Abraham&quot;, *Journal of Jewish Studies* 54 (2003), pp. 228-232 suggested the following meanings for the names:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Barisatu** (varyingly spelled 'Varisatu') -&gt; Aramaic בר אשת(א), Bar Eshta = &quot;fiery&quot;/&quot;son of fire&quot;. Being the wooden god used by Abraham in the story to stoke the fire, this name makes sense. This suggestion was first [made][1] by Louis Ginzberg.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Nakhon** (varyingly spelled 'Nakhin') -&gt; Hebrew נכון = &quot;steady&quot;. This god stands steady as opposed to Maroumat, the stone god which fell at its feet.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Maroumat** (varyingly spelled 'Maroumaf') -&gt; Aramaic מר אומת(א), Mar Umata = &quot;Lord of the nation&quot;. Kulik suggests that this title is connected with Maroumat's head being placed on the body of another statue, similar to how Roman emperors' statutes were altered (for example: Suetonius, [*De Vita Caesarum IV (Caligula)*, 22][2]). The name Mar Umata may be the Aramaic version of something like the Greek *κύριος ἔθνος* or Latin *dominus populi*, i.e., a divinized Roman emperor.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kulik found the last deities, Zoukh(e) and Yoavon, to be more difficult, but suggested the following:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Zoukh(e)** -&gt; Greek *Ζεωχ* which appears in Hellenistic Greek Magical Papyri (PGM) as the name of a deity. This god appears, among other places, in a particular papyrus which features a version of a prayer to Helios, together with another deity, 'Yao', interchanged with the forms 'Yavo', 'Yavou' and 'Yaou' (*Ιαω*, *Ιαβω*, *Ιαβου*, *Ιαου*). This latter may be **Yoavon**, the god standing next to Zoukh(e) in the story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/361-abraham-apocalypse-of#:~:text=He%20threw%20the%20wooden%20idol%20Barisat&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Suetonius/12Caesars/Caligula*.html#:~:text=But%20on%20being,in%20their%20place" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30828" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10861" RevisionGUID="54c4828d-c01f-46da-ba2c-971142373102" CreationDate="2023-11-30T15:47:25.440" UserId="3989" Text="It is not Shamash the sun god, but rather Shamhat the temple harlot, who (at the direction of King Gilgamesh) helps the &quot;notorious trapper&quot; to protect his livelihood from the wild man Enkidu. She does this by seducing Enkidu, after which he suffers more than ordinary post-coital lethargy.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *why* is of course open to interpretation. Mine is that Gilgamesh and Enkidu in some sense represent an antithesis between city life and wild nature, in the context of a myth from a people who pioneered the former. As a partisan of wild nature, Enkidu has been saving his animal friends by springing the trapper's traps. Shamhat is of the city side of that, being a kind of priestess of the Eanna temple, the heart of the city. Her city-ness rubs off on Enkidu, alienating him from his power base in wild nature, as shown by his animal friends' sudden and immediate rejection of him. I like to compare this to the wrestling of Hercules and Antaeus, where Hercules had to win by an overhead bear hug, rather than a fall, since the Earth was Antaeus' mother and gave him power when they were in contact. Shamhat then introduces Enkidu to bread and beer, products that require a more settled way of life than the wild man's, to further the same objective.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30832" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10862" RevisionGUID="89dc3e67-bb67-4d2e-9631-6e85b856c502" CreationDate="2023-12-01T22:44:58.103" UserId="10837" Text="Atlas holds up the world on his shoulders. On what does he stand?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've heard the ancients depicted the world being supported by 4 elephants which were standing on the back of a turtle. I'm not sure which ancients they were. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've read that by the 5th century BCE the Greeks were beginning to understand that the world was a sphere. What of the 14th century BCE Greeks -- the ones who fought the Trojans. What did they believe? What did Homer say about the matter?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30834" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10862" RevisionGUID="89dc3e67-bb67-4d2e-9631-6e85b856c502" CreationDate="2023-12-01T22:44:58.103" UserId="10837" Text="Where did the ancient (the ones who fought the Trojans) Greeks believe the world to be?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30835" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10862" RevisionGUID="89dc3e67-bb67-4d2e-9631-6e85b856c502" CreationDate="2023-12-01T22:44:58.103" UserId="10837" Text="|origins|iliad|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30836" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10863" RevisionGUID="178c5959-5b65-4342-938f-af5aac93a6f7" CreationDate="2023-12-02T12:46:20.010" UserId="10839" Text="my mum recently told me about a book that her own mother (my grandmother) mentioned to her when she was a child. Neither of them actually had a physical copy of the book, but I'd like to know if someone has maybe heard of something similar or might even know what this was about. Sadly she passed away at a young age, and my mum never inquired as to the specifics of it either.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The following is all we know:&#xD;&#xA; - The book was read from back to front&#xD;&#xA; - It contained curses, as well as prophecies of future events&#xD;&#xA; - The book was not to be touched with your bare finger or hand, otherwise the curses contained therein would transfer over to the reader&#xD;&#xA; - My grandmother (born 1927) grew up in a small village in northwestern Ukraine named Novomalyn and was a Russian Orthodox Christian&#xD;&#xA; - She did not speak any languages that would normally be read from right to left (to coincide with the book's pages)&#xD;&#xA; - She was able to read and write but not particularly educated otherwise&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's entirely possible that even as a child this was merely something she heard about, and I have no information about her own parents and family to determine where this book's origins might lie for certain. Considering the book itself is implied to be cursed, I don't think it's a sacred tome like the Torah, which is also not to be touched with your bare hand, though out of respect.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Given this little information, I'm unsure where to even begin researching. It's also possible the book itself is just the subject of a story and itself not a real item. Any help or clue regarding the matter would be greatly appreciated by the both of us!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30838" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10863" RevisionGUID="178c5959-5b65-4342-938f-af5aac93a6f7" CreationDate="2023-12-02T12:46:20.010" UserId="10839" Text="Need help identifying a specific prophetic or cursed book of unknown origin" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30839" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10863" RevisionGUID="178c5959-5b65-4342-938f-af5aac93a6f7" CreationDate="2023-12-02T12:46:20.010" UserId="10839" Text="|origins|european-folklore|magic|slavic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30840" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10863" RevisionGUID="7f694d61-7923-4887-9b41-d26f2f72904d" CreationDate="2023-12-02T12:48:51.760" UserId="10839" Comment="edited body; edited tags" Text="My mum recently told me about a book that her own mother (my grandmother) mentioned to her when she was a child. Neither of them actually had a physical copy of the book, but I'd like to know if someone has maybe heard of something similar or might even know what this was about. Sadly she passed away at a young age, and my mum never inquired as to the specifics of it either.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The following is all we know:&#xD;&#xA; - The book was read from back to front&#xD;&#xA; - It contained curses, as well as prophecies of future events&#xD;&#xA; - The book was not to be touched with your bare finger or hand, otherwise the curses contained therein would transfer over to the reader&#xD;&#xA; - My grandmother (born 1927) grew up in a small village in northwestern Ukraine named Novomalyn and was a Russian Orthodox Christian&#xD;&#xA; - She did not speak any languages that would normally be read from right to left (to coincide with the book's pages)&#xD;&#xA; - She was able to read and write but not particularly educated otherwise&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's entirely possible that even as a child this was merely something she heard about, and I have no information about her own parents and family to determine where this book's origins might lie for certain. Considering the book itself is implied to be cursed, I don't think it's a sacred tome like the Torah, which is also not to be touched with your bare hand, though out of respect.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Given this little information, I'm unsure where to even begin researching. It's also possible the book itself is just the subject of a story and itself not a real item. Any help or clue regarding the matter would be greatly appreciated by the both of us!" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30841" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="10863" RevisionGUID="7f694d61-7923-4887-9b41-d26f2f72904d" CreationDate="2023-12-02T12:48:51.760" UserId="10839" Comment="edited body; edited tags" Text="|myth-identification|origins|european-folklore|magic|slavic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30844" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10864" RevisionGUID="6780dfef-8f8a-4a48-a322-6738bdba0b6e" CreationDate="2023-12-04T00:31:04.053" UserId="5806" Text="Atlas was holding the sky, not the World. This is a common misconception.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[Check it in Wikipedia][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_(mythology)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30846" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10865" RevisionGUID="888d1663-a2a1-4874-8225-cf5ce5cb4a37" CreationDate="2023-12-04T07:48:40.140" UserId="2682" Text="In the ancient myths, Atlas is not carrying the world but rather he is holding heaven up over the Earth. He himself is standing somewhere on Earth, most versions of the story locating him at a certain extremity of the world. As for the world itself, it is somewhat complex to explain, but it is probably floating in a field of nothingness, or submerged in an inconceivably vast bulk of water. I elaborate on this further below.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Cosmic Stack of Animals**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The configuration to which you refer, with the elephants and the turtle, appears to be based on European interpretations of Hindu cosmography going back at least until the end of the 1500s AD (or &quot;CE&quot;). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Garson O’Toole, in the 2021 article &quot;[Tortoises All the Way Down](https://quoteinvestigator.com/2021/08/22/turtles-down/)&quot;, cites a certain Jesuit, Emmanuelis de Veiga, as describing (in 1599) this conception of the Earth being carried by seven elephants each standing upon tortoises. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[A drawing of your particular structure](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:PSM_V10_D562_The_hindoo_earth.jpg), with the four elephants atop a single turtle, appears in the March 1877 (Vol. 10) issue of the American magazine *Popular Science Monthly*, labelled as &quot;The Hindoo Earth&quot;, in the article &quot;How the Earth Was Regarded in Old Times&quot;.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hindu scriptures contain a variety of rather differing layouts of the cosmos. In the *Brahmavaivarta Purāṇa*, for instance, the thousand-hooded cobra Śeṣa carries the universe upon his heads while resting upon the cosmic tortoise Kūrma, &quot;but when he is seated over the back of the tortoise, he appears like an elephant&quot; (*Brahmakaṇḍha*, Ch. 30). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The *Skanda Purāṇa* seems to describe something similar in which the great god Viṣṇu lifts the Earth up out of the primaeval waters and, &quot;in order to give her {*the Earth, i.e.*} extra support&quot;, he places the elephants of the four cardinal compass-point directions, and &quot;the King of the Serpents&quot;, together with the cosmic tortoise in some sort of relation to the Earth. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Wikipedia takes note of a &quot;World Turtle&quot; mytheme occurring in stories also from China and North America. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Burden of Atlas**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When it comes to Atlas's burden in Greek mythology, however, the globe he carries on his shoulders in visual art is the celestial sphere, misinterpreted in the modern day to be the round planet that the Earth later comes to be understood as, rather than the night sky which it is intended to depict.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Particularly in sculpture, it is a rather challenging proposition to portray the abstraction of someone holding up the heavens, and so artists came up with the design of the ancient Titan bearing up the field of constellations in a more evocative format than a flat plane. It's easier to appreciate this in colour, such as in these more modern works below:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Atlas - Fountain - Castle Howard][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Atlas statue from the Atlas Fountain at Castle Howard, North Yorkshire, England, with the golden symbols, on the band around the celestial sphere, representing the signs of the zodiac.*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Atlas, Royal Palace, Amsterdam][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Atlas at the Royal Palace in Amsterdam, the Netherlands*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Guercino *Atlas*][3]][3]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Atlas Holding Up the Celestial Globe*, by il Guercino (1646), with the signs of Libra and Cancer most visible above the Titan's head&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Homer's *Odyssey*, the sky is described as being propped up by pillars, and, in turn, that Atlas holds these pillars, or is in charge of them. Hesiod's *Theogony*, roughly contemporaneous with Homer, is more explicit than this in telling us that Atlas bears the weight of the sky upon his head and arms, standing at the edge of the Earth, near the Hesperides, nymphs who are associated with the direction of the sunset.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Although various spots in Europe would be linked to Atlas by different writers, the most famous would be the vast mountain range which covers almost the entire swath of northwestern Africa, from what is now the northern half of Tunisia in the east, across northern Algeria, to sweep over almost all of Morocco in the west.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![GoogleMaps - Atlas Mountains][4]][4]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;These mountains are still today called Atlas, and the Titan is said to either have dwelt somewhere in them, or, going by Ovid's *Metamorphoses*, he was turned into stone by Perseus and, being so humongous, his body *became* these mountains.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At any rate this location in Africa was supposed to be the western extremity of the world, which seems, from the descriptions of the Oceanus River in the *Theogony*, and in Homer's *Iliad*, and Aeschylus' *Prometheus Bound*, to have been thought of as a flat disc, with the vast stream of Oceanus encircling all the land therein, creating the (only) three continents, viz: Europe; Libya (i.e. Africa); and Asia (= Anatolia and the Near East).  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Anaximander World Map, John Robinson, 1968][5]][5]  &#xD;&#xA;Representing this, on p. 32 of his 1968 book *An Introduction to Early Greek Philosophy*, John Mansley Robinson provides this reconstruction (above) of the world map supposedly published by Anaximander in the 500s BC (or &quot;BCE&quot;). So Atlas would've been a geographical feature in the top-left corner of Libya in this image.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Shape of the Universe**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Zooming out and panning in the Z-axis, p. 10 of Robinson's book interprets Hesiod's description of the universe as below, &quot;finite and symmetrical&quot;, with the *Theogony* having the Earth's surface as far above the depths of Tartarus as the sky is from the Earth.   &#xD;&#xA;[![Hesiod, Theogony - Cosmos, John Robinson][6]][6] &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So the scheme as understood here presents the universe as a self-contained sphere inside of which is located the disc-shaped Earth. Covering the expanses of land, sea, and Oceanus River, is the solid dome of the sky, basically an upside-down bowl, with Tartarus being the inverse of this below, like an upside-down sky. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The sun, moon and stars made their movements on the inside of the sky-dome, rising in flaming or gleaming chariots out of one end of the Oceanus to set at the other end of the world, the Sun in particular being described (such as in Apollodorus' *Library*) as spending the night in a golden goblet in which he sailed his chariot along one half of the Oceanus in order travel back east from the west so that he could begin his daily journey across the sky from there the next morning. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Harris &amp; Platzner 3-Storey Universe][7]][7]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;In &quot;The Truth and Falsehood of Myths&quot; (2020), Hansie Wolmarans, cites this image (above) as coming from Stephen Harris and Gloria Platzner's book *Classical Mythology: Images and Insights* (2012:63). Over here the Atlas Mountains would be the western pillars of heaven.&lt;/sub&gt;   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Where Is It?***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Outside of this cosmic sphere there was essentially... *nothing*: the unfathomable emptiness called Chaos, the &quot;Gap&quot; or &quot;Void,&quot; out of which, according to Hesiod, everything else emerged, starting with entities like Gaia (the Earth), who then gave birth to Uranus (Sky) and Pontus (the Sea).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Based on Homer's assertion, in the *Iliad*, that Oceanus is the source of all the gods, both philosophers and the Orphics would later use this as the basis for the idea that the universe began as a conceptually endless mass of *Hydros*, &quot;Water.&quot; In the cosmogonies of Egypt and Mesopotamia (as well as certain versions of the Hindu creation story, as in the *Skanda Purāṇa* above) the universe and the gods are similarly said to have been born of a primordial expanse of water.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In this view, then, perhaps, the universe is essentially a tiny sub-aquatic bubble of air, encased above by Uranus (Heaven) and below by Tartarus (the Abyss), maybe with the Oceanus River, and the seas, being some of these primordial waters leaking into the bubble through the sides. (See Hesiod's enigmatic description of the Oceanus as a stream that flows, around both the Earth and the sea, nine times before draining a tenth part of itself into the Underworld river Styx, whereupon the stream's infernal water, being &quot;a great vexation to the gods... runs off the precipice&quot; [*Theogony* 775-806].) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**See also:**  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Comparable to Hesiod's universe (as above), the *Worldview of Thales of Miletus*, a 3D model by Carlos Clarivan (2016), on [FineArtAmerica](https://fineartamerica.com/featured/worldview-of-thales-of-miletus-carlos-clarivan.html).&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA; - &lt;sub&gt;Ian Alexander's diagram comparing the cosmology of Thales with that of his pupil Anaximander, on [Wikimedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaximander#/media/File:Floating_Earth_Thales_Anaximander.svg).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/5Tflc.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/tlT9t.png&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Gkfw0.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/jcHmy.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/HbmfV.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/6llAB.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/nspCJ.png" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30871" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10873" RevisionGUID="99673801-3a2b-4049-83fc-95b247408d5f" CreationDate="2023-12-12T13:05:15.413" UserId="4601" Text="Tezcatlipoca's foot, if you count obsidian:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Tezcatlipoca (pronounced teska-tli-pooka) was the Aztec god of creation and revenge. In certain drawings, he is depicted with his right foot gone and a “prosthesis” of obsidian (black volcanic glass) or a bone. The story goes that Tezcatlipoca lost his foot while battling the Earth Monster during creation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;—[Prosthetics through the Ages: From Myth to Practice](https://www.ipfh.org/media-press/features/prosthetics-through-the-ages-from-myth-to-practice) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;He is often depicted with various symbolic objects in place of his right foot, such as an obsidian mirror, bone, or a serpent. This is an allusion to the creation myth, in which Tezcatlipoca loses his foot battling with the earth monster Cipactli.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;—[Wikipedia: Tezcatlipoca](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tezcatlipoca)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30874" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10874" RevisionGUID="23670b11-b11f-4356-b571-7d897f790764" CreationDate="2023-12-15T17:01:02.750" UserId="7315" Text="Indeed, as you pointed out, the similarities between the Morrígains (or equivalently, the Bodbs) and the Valkyries are quite striking, as summarized by Matthias Egeler in *[Celtic Influences in Germanic Religion: A Survey][1]*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;The characters of the Valkyries and the Bodbs appear to exhibit&#xD;&#xA;extensive parallels: both classes of supernatural beings are (1) female&#xD;&#xA;beings who can appear (2) both as a group and as single individuals,&#xD;&#xA;who are (3) fundamentally located in the realm of death, (4) deeply&#xD;&#xA;concerned with war, (5) can display a noticeably erotic trait in their&#xD;&#xA;dealings with the male protagonists of war, (6) are associated with&#xD;&#xA;birds and a bird-shape and (7) have a direct lethal influence on the&#xD;&#xA;mind of their victims.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He then goes on to argue in favor of a direct connection between the two, due to Celtic-Germanic interactions in continental Europe, way earlier than the Viking age:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [...] indeed&#xD;&#xA;the first attestations of the Valkyries in Norse literature are too&#xD;&#xA;early to allow the possibility that the Valkyries could have been&#xD;&#xA;borrowed from Ireland during the Viking Age (nor is it possible to&#xD;&#xA;assume a borrowing in the opposite direction).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Interestingly, he also draws a parallel between the &quot;the female battlefield demons of Ireland and Scandinavia&quot; and other figures from Classical Mediterranean mythology, such as the Greek [Sirens][2], [Erinyes][3], [Harpies][4] and [Keres][5], the Roman Furies, and the Etruscan death-demon [Vanth][6].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding the connection with warrior bands and their &quot;divine frenzy&quot;, the following passage from *[War Goddess: The Morrígan And Her Germano-Celtic Counterparts][7]* by Angelique Gulermovich Epstein (which I highly recommend you read in its entirety, if you are interested in the subject) is certainly relevant:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Perhaps the Morrígan herself (or at least her divine fury), personified as a bird,&#xD;&#xA;possesses the warrior, as Odin (or his fury) enters the berserk.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, it should be emphasized that, while there is plenty of archeological and literary evidence supporting the historical existence of a cult of Odin in the Germanic world, no cult of the Morrígan seems to be attested in the Celtic world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://www.academia.edu/2625544/_Celtic_Influences_in_Germanic_Religion_A_Survey_M%C3%BCnchner_Nordistische_Studien_15_M%C3%BCnchen_Utz_Verlag_2013_156_S_&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siren_(mythology)&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erinyes&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harpy&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keres&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanth&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://archive.org/details/WarGoddessTheMorriganAndHerGermanoCelticCounterparts" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30876" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10845" RevisionGUID="6ab2b432-6bc8-465f-aa8a-493aac59330c" CreationDate="2023-12-15T19:21:59.437" UserId="5803" Comment="fixed typos, improved phrasing; added tag" Text="I've noticed that Celtic-sounding words are very sing-song. Is there a connection between this rhythm and their symbols, like the Celtic knot?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30877" PostHistoryTypeId="4" PostId="10845" RevisionGUID="6ab2b432-6bc8-465f-aa8a-493aac59330c" CreationDate="2023-12-15T19:21:59.437" UserId="5803" Comment="fixed typos, improved phrasing; added tag" Text="What is the relationship between Celtic harmonics and Celtic symbols?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30878" PostHistoryTypeId="6" PostId="10845" RevisionGUID="6ab2b432-6bc8-465f-aa8a-493aac59330c" CreationDate="2023-12-15T19:21:59.437" UserId="5803" Comment="fixed typos, improved phrasing; added tag" Text="|symbolism|celtic|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30879" PostHistoryTypeId="24" PostId="10845" RevisionGUID="6ab2b432-6bc8-465f-aa8a-493aac59330c" CreationDate="2023-12-15T19:21:59.437" Comment="Proposed by 5803 approved by 398, 53 edit id of 1942" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30888" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="1385" RevisionGUID="0b4fc70d-57a8-45ce-9b30-5abefb698374" CreationDate="2023-12-18T02:07:50.913" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30889" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="10202" RevisionGUID="c49520cf-a360-4e54-b080-1ee4ab307d05" CreationDate="2023-12-18T05:02:35.293" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30890" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10876" RevisionGUID="15bfc2c3-43c8-4d77-b746-37ac07070444" CreationDate="2023-12-18T06:36:58.600" UserId="8708" Text="Wikipedia (seemingly quoted directly from older encyclopedias) claims that according to John Tzetzes' commentary on Lycophron, Eurystheus' daughter Admete not only asked for the belt of Hippolyta, but even *accompanied* Heracles on the labor. The source cited is Tzetzes on Lycophron line 1327, but when read on topostexts:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  &quot;Struck with a beast&quot;; Theseus, they say, went with Heracles to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Scythia to the Amazons and prepared a &quot;double&quot; &quot;neikos&quot; against the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greeks because of Hippolyta's belt and because of Antiope the Amazon,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from whom he also had Hippolytus. The story goes like this: Admete,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the daughter of Eurystheus, desired to have Hippolyta's belt and so&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Heracles with Theseus and others came to the port of Themiskyra in one&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ship and Hippolyta promised to give him the belt, but Hera, disguised&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as a woman among the other Amazons, said they were going to kidnap&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hippolyta. When they came down armed as if for battle, Heracles,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; standing against them, killed Hippolyta and taking the belt, he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; brought it to Eurystheus and his daughter. And Apollodorus (II 102)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and the others say that Hippolyta was killed by Heracles, but&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollonius says this seqq. B 966-969. Another says something similar&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to the previous ones seqq. vv. sch. Pind. N III 64 &quot;spasanti&quot; having&#xD;&#xA;&gt; taken, having suckled.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no reference to her having gone with them, but topostexts also admits their translation was performed by ChatGBT &quot;with more speed than accuracy&quot;. Can anyone who can read Greek tell me if the original more plainly implies Admete went with them on the voyage?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Oxford Handbook of Heracles also repeats the claim:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One later version of the Hippolyte myth even claims that Princess&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Admete actually sailed to Themiscyra with Heracles, in order to make&#xD;&#xA;&gt; certain that he obtained the prized war belt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;No source is cited. This essay by Adrienne Mayor is also found in her book &quot;The Amazons: Lives and Legends of Warrior Women across the Ancient World&quot;. Did Adrienne Mayor read Tzetzes in the original Greek and see that it implies Admete sailed to Themiscyra, did she read some other &quot;later version&quot; of the story in which Admete sailed to Themiscyra, or is it even possible that the Oxford Handbook of Heracles is simply parroting Wikipedia?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did John Tzetzes, or any source before him, say Admete sailed to Themiscyra?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30892" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10876" RevisionGUID="15bfc2c3-43c8-4d77-b746-37ac07070444" CreationDate="2023-12-18T06:36:58.600" UserId="8708" Text="Did Admete go to Themiscyra?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30893" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10876" RevisionGUID="15bfc2c3-43c8-4d77-b746-37ac07070444" CreationDate="2023-12-18T06:36:58.600" UserId="8708" Text="|source-request|hercules|amazons|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30894" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10877" RevisionGUID="d9b03ee9-1edf-4916-99b3-288e8009c9ef" CreationDate="2023-12-18T13:38:46.517" UserId="398" Text="The translation seems accurate here. The original source of Wikipedia and perhaps of Mayor (though she doesn't mention Lycophron here) and the Oxford Handbook seems to be [Smith's Biography](https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0104%3Aentry%3Dadmete-bio-2). When I checked Gantz, he doesn't mention it at all. He does however point to another source that covers the myth, if you have access to it and can read German:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Schauenburg's article &quot;Der Gürtel der Hippolyte&quot; in Philologus 104 (1960).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1524/phil.1960.104.12.1/html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30896" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10876" RevisionGUID="280db780-4375-4e96-b796-db5e6a466b78" CreationDate="2023-12-18T17:18:17.580" UserId="8708" Comment="edited body" Text="Wikipedia (seemingly quoted directly from older encyclopedias) claims that according to John Tzetzes' commentary on Lycophron, Eurystheus' daughter Admete not only asked for the belt of Hippolyta, but even *accompanied* Heracles on the labor. The source cited is Tzetzes on Lycophron line 1327, but when read on topostexts:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;  &quot;Struck with a beast&quot;; Theseus, they say, went with Heracles to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Scythia to the Amazons and prepared a &quot;double&quot; &quot;neikos&quot; against the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Greeks because of Hippolyta's belt and because of Antiope the Amazon,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from whom he also had Hippolytus. The story goes like this: Admete,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the daughter of Eurystheus, desired to have Hippolyta's belt and so&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Heracles with Theseus and others came to the port of Themiskyra in one&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ship and Hippolyta promised to give him the belt, but Hera, disguised&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as a woman among the other Amazons, said they were going to kidnap&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hippolyta. When they came down armed as if for battle, Heracles,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; standing against them, killed Hippolyta and taking the belt, he&#xD;&#xA;&gt; brought it to Eurystheus and his daughter. And Apollodorus (II 102)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and the others say that Hippolyta was killed by Heracles, but&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Apollonius says this seqq. B 966-969. Another says something similar&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to the previous ones seqq. vv. sch. Pind. N III 64 &quot;spasanti&quot; having&#xD;&#xA;&gt; taken, having suckled.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is no reference to her having gone with them, but topostexts also admits their translation was performed by ChatGPT &quot;with more speed than accuracy&quot;. Can anyone who can read Greek tell me if the original more plainly implies Admete went with them on the voyage?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Oxford Handbook of Heracles also repeats the claim:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; One later version of the Hippolyte myth even claims that Princess&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Admete actually sailed to Themiscyra with Heracles, in order to make&#xD;&#xA;&gt; certain that he obtained the prized war belt.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;No source is cited. This essay by Adrienne Mayor is also found in her book &quot;The Amazons: Lives and Legends of Warrior Women across the Ancient World&quot;. Did Adrienne Mayor read Tzetzes in the original Greek and see that it implies Admete sailed to Themiscyra, did she read some other &quot;later version&quot; of the story in which Admete sailed to Themiscyra, or is it even possible that the Oxford Handbook of Heracles is simply parroting Wikipedia?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Did John Tzetzes, or any source before him, say Admete sailed to Themiscyra?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30897" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="10466" RevisionGUID="daf58154-e323-4e17-a2f6-c780ba66a46c" CreationDate="2023-12-19T01:03:15.467" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30898" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10332" RevisionGUID="0ebc20e4-aa4d-4697-9f22-fc1328df08e8" CreationDate="2023-12-19T16:31:33.333" UserId="7106" Comment="deleted 12 characters in body" Text="Christian symbolism can be found in Irish and Scandinavian mythologies, as the authors that recorded it were Christian and probably wrote about it centuries later. Was there ever a Christianization of Egyptian myths? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am looking for some sort of text where a common Egyptian tale has some evident elements of Christianity incorporated in it. There is a gap of a few centuries of Christianity in Roman Egypt were that could have happened but maybe it was too short lived?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most sources I could find deal with possible influence of Egyptian myths on Abrahamic religions, but I would like to know if the opposite ever had place. The same question could be asked about Persian and Islam influence on the myths. How did early Christians wrote about Egyptian myths?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30899" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10878" RevisionGUID="01fbe454-afb7-449f-989b-619059b86072" CreationDate="2023-12-19T18:48:19.090" UserId="10873" Text="Book of jasher, ch.77 versus 48-51 are interesting. Could be a possible source for the true origin of the story keeping in mind the sword may not necessarily matter. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30901" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10879" RevisionGUID="f24e4737-022d-4f8a-9b13-0bad1fedb885" CreationDate="2023-12-20T05:19:29.840" UserId="7315" Text="Questions concerning Christian influence on Norse mythology are always hard, given that many of the written sources at our disposal were compiled after the Christianization of Scandinavia. Nevertheless, cross-referencing with the archaelogical record and with the pre-Christian sources has allowed scholars to reach some consensus on tales and motifs which are genuinely pagan. However, characters like Loki, and events like Odin's sacrifice to himself remain controversial, and are still debated today.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even though your question concerns mainly Odin, I believe also the opening sentence about Loki deserves some clarification. For this reason, I will split my answer in two parts, one for each deity.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;# **Loki**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is entirely possible that Loki underwent a 'demonization' after the Christianization of Scandinavia (this is a view held, among others, by [Jan de Vries][1]). This would explain his apparently contradictory nature:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; On the one hand, Loki is said to be the murderer by advice (*ráðbani*) of Baldr, whose killing is said to be the worst incident among gods and men (*Gylfaginning*, ch. 33). Both Loki and his children play a central part in Ragnarok on the side of the enemies of the gods, and many other calamities that strike the gods are caused by Loki, too. On the other hand, he is the blood relation of Óðinn and a figure who, by his own will or not, brings the gods some of their most precious objects, without which they could not fulfill their function as defenders of the cosmos.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Jens Peter Schjødt, entry on Loki in *Medieval Scandinavia: An Encyclopedia* &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, not all scholars share (or shared) this view. For example, [Georges Dumézil][2], in his book *Loki* (1948), argued convincingly in favor of a purely Indo-European (that is, not influenced by Christianity) origin of Loki, and compared the murder of Balder to a similar episode appearing in the Ossetian [Nart Saga][3], involving the trickster Syrdon and the hero Soslan.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On the opposite side of the spectrum, Kees Samplonius, building on an etymology proposed by [Sophus Bugge][4], which derives Loki from *Lucifer*, believes in a purely Christian origin of Loki:&#xD;&#xA;&gt; However, if Loki was a god (or at least a supernatural being of some sort) with the character of Satan and with a name best explained as short for Lucifer, strong arguments are needed to make him an Old Germanic deity.&#xD;&#xA;[...]&#xD;&#xA;The only sensible answer is that, for all of the variances of manifestation, Loki&#xD;&#xA;drew his name from the Christian Lucifer and remained associated with him in&#xD;&#xA;various ways. [...] The heathen or merely superficial Christian Nordic people may have liked this Lucifer derivative, because the figure was suitable for good story-telling, just as the Devil figures in many popular tales in the rest of Europe.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Kees Samplonius, *The Background and Scope of Völuspá*, in *The Nordic Apocalypse*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All this to emphasize the difficulties in assessing to which extent a complex character like Loki was influenced by the process of Christianization. In the words of Jens Peter Schjødt:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;We have seen that most of the research concerning Loki has focused on&#xD;&#xA;attempting to distinguish between pagan and Christian notions of the figure.&#xD;&#xA;This is reasonable given the nature of especially the literary sources we have at&#xD;&#xA;our disposal; but at the same time, there is a risk that the quite trite acknowledgement, known to all historians of religion, that all religious notions and all religious rituals are to some extent influenced by something else, is forgotten, resulting in the utopian idea that if we are only careful enough in our treatment of the sources we can find, behind all those late and foreign influences, a figure that was pure and not ‘polluted’ by any sort of influence. Such a god does not exist, not in Scandinavia, nor anywhere else, at least not within the whole of the Indo-European and Semitic areas.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Jens Peter Schjødt, *Loki* in *The Pre-Christian Religions of the North* &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;# Odin&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Odin's case, the situation seems to be slightly simpler. There is some consensus among scholars regarding an original 'demonic' nature of Odin, associated to his close connection with the dead and with human sacrifices, as well as to the practice of various forms of magic. For this reason Dumézil, in *Gods of the Ancient Northmen* (1973), proposed a parallel between Odin and the Indian god [Varuna][5].&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Odin's demonic nature is exaggerated whenever Odin interacts with Christian characters, and certain Christian authors tend to portray him in a negative light:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;We also meet Óðinn in some of the other sagas of *[Heimskringla][6]*, particularly in relation to the missionary kings, Óláfr Tryggvason and Óláfr Haraldsson, although there he is portrayed as demonic. [...] In *[Gesta Danorum][7]*, Óðinn is quite frequently mentioned in the first nine books, often in a way that is clearly hostile from the perspective of the author since Óðinn, more than any other god, is seen as a representative of the pagan religion. [...] He is, for example,&#xD;&#xA;ridiculed in the Rinda episode (and is expelled by his own people afterwards) [...] In another episode (*Gesta Danorum* 1.7.1), he is so embarrassed that his wife, Frigga, has committed adultery with a servant in order to acquire some jewellery from a statue that he goes abroad afterwards. [...] Also in some of the *[konunga sögur][8]*, dealing with Christian kings, we meet this motif, albeit in a transformed variant: Óðinn tempts the Christian king with his knowledge about the past or he offers something to the king (which must of course not be accepted), a motif we also find in *[Hrólfs saga kraka][9]*.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Jens Peter Schjødt, *Óðinn* in *The Pre-Christian Religions of the North* &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The myth of Odin hanging from Yggdrasill lends itself to different interpretations. Some scholars consider it a genuinely pagan myth (perhaps associated to shamanic or initiation practices), which made Christians uncomfortable:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;[Snorri][10] clearly knew the myth of Óðinn’s sacrifice of himself to himself on Yggdrasill, but it is never mentioned in *[Snorra Edda][11]*, probably because its obvious resemblance to the Crucifixion story would be likely to make it seem blasphemous.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;John McKinnell, *Heathenism in Völuspá* in *The Nordic Apocalypse* &lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Others, like Annette Lassen in her article *[The God on the Three][12]*, see in this myth an attempt by a Christian author to portray the &quot;doctrine of paganism as misunderstood or inverted Christian doctrine&quot;. Regardless of the interpretation, it is safe to say that the myth of Odin's sacrifice to himself was never used to equate the god to a Christ-like figure.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Finally, I would like to address the attribute of 'Allfather' associated with Odin. While this attribute alone may not suffice to equate him with the Christian God, it could have played a role, alongside other features of the Norse god and his cult, in facilitating the conversion to Christianity by the rulers of Nordic countries. This idea is brought forward by Terry Gunnell in *[From One High One to Another: The Acceptance of Óðinn as Preparation for God][13]*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_de_Vries_(philologist)&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Dum%C3%A9zil&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nart_saga&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophus_Bugge&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varuna&#xD;&#xA;  [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heimskringla&#xD;&#xA;  [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesta_Danorum&#xD;&#xA;  [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kings%27_sagas&#xD;&#xA;  [9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hr%C3%B3lfs_saga_kraka&#xD;&#xA;  [10]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snorri_Sturluson&#xD;&#xA;  [11]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prose_Edda&#xD;&#xA;  [12]: https://www.academia.edu/45324537/The_God_on_the_Tree&#xD;&#xA;  [13]: https://www.academia.edu/10458436/_From_One_High_One_to_Another_The_Acceptance_of_%C3%93%C3%B0inn_as_Preparation_for_God" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30903" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10880" RevisionGUID="4308ee34-892c-48be-8be2-1c537e56a8b7" CreationDate="2023-12-20T16:36:27.560" UserId="7315" Text="There doesn't seem to be a clearly defined race of stone-giants in the Old Norse corpus. In fact, [Snorri Sturluson][1], who in his *[Skáldskaparmál][2]* gives the most detailed account of Hrungnir's duel with Thor, always refers to the giant using the term *jǫtunn*, which is usually translated as 'giant'. Indeed, he describes some of his body parts as being made of stone:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Hrungnir had a heart that is renowned, made of solid stone and spiky with three points just like the symbol for carving called Hrungnir’s heart has ever since been made. His head was also of stone.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&lt;sub&gt;Snorri Sturluson, *Skáldskaparmál 17*, translation by Anthony Faulkes&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, such attributes cannot be taken as proof that he belongs to a whole new class of beings. Bear in mind that all thoughout the Old Norse corpus, giants receive all sorts of attributes, depending on the narrative needs of the myths they are featured in. Hence, [Þjazi][3] could shapeshift into an eagle, [Starkaðr][4] had eight arms, [Útgarða-Loki][5] was huge, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snorri_Sturluson&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sk%C3%A1ldskaparm%C3%A1l&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Ejazi&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starkad&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Atgar%C3%B0a-Loki" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30905" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10880" RevisionGUID="0b3d4684-d4e1-4dcf-9a45-cc316f415b57" CreationDate="2023-12-20T17:56:57.073" UserId="7315" Comment="deleted 4 characters in body" Text="There doesn't seem to be a clearly defined race of stone-giants in the Old Norse corpus. In fact, [Snorri Sturluson][1], who in his *[Skáldskaparmál][2]* gives the most detailed account of Hrungnir's duel with Thor, always refers to the giant using the term *jǫtunn*, which is usually translated as 'giant'. He does describe some of his body parts as being made of stone:&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Hrungnir had a heart that is renowned, made of solid stone and spiky with three points just like the symbol for carving called Hrungnir’s heart has ever since been made. His head was also of stone.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Snorri Sturluson, *Skáldskaparmál 17*, translation by Anthony Faulkes&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, such attributes cannot be taken as proof that he belongs to a whole new class of beings. Bear in mind that throughout the Old Norse corpus, giants receive various attributes depending on the narrative needs of the myths in which they are featured. Hence, [Þjazi][3] could shapeshift into an eagle, [Starkaðr][4] had eight arms, [Útgarða-Loki][5] was huge, etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snorri_Sturluson&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sk%C3%A1ldskaparm%C3%A1l&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Ejazi&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starkad&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Atgar%C3%B0a-Loki" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30906" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10881" RevisionGUID="956035f0-21fb-4405-8006-9207d4962a6f" CreationDate="2023-12-20T20:48:47.637" UserId="10391" Text="As Mary's answer has already said, angels often are portrayed as capable of procreating.  The origin of the Nephilim in Genesis is an example of this explicitly stated in the bible, if briefly.  I wanted to add an answer to expand on the idea that angels can't procreate and where this comes from.  Modern Christian dogma often takes it for granted that angels are sexless.  This seems to derive largely from Matthew 22 where it is said that there will be no sex and marriage in heaven.  However, the logic behind it also has to do with the way that our view of spiritual entities have changed over time.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Many modern Christian groups will insist that angels must be genderless because they are &quot;pure spirit&quot;, as if spirit is non-material and therefore can't be associated with forms.  This isn't really the way that ancient people looked at spirits though.  Spirit was &quot;subtle matter&quot;.  It was something different than the vulgar stuff of the physical world, but it was still stuff.  Spiritual entities in the ancient world had bodies, wore clothes, ate food, etc.  Even the above mentioned passage in Matthew frames the lack of marriage in heaven as being due to the fact that we will be given new, purified bodies with different sets of needs, not due to the fact that we will be naked souls with no bodies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Angels in the Old Testament have sex and come over for dinner and get into wrestling matches, and they also manifest as unknowable cosmic horrors that can't be approached or understood and make people fall on their face.  There was no contradiction in these perceptions of spiritual beings in the ancient world.  A combination of platonizing influences and modern rationalism, however, have resulted in a clean break between the physical and spiritual that makes such fuzzy lines untenable to many modern believers." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30908" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10877" RevisionGUID="5facc71c-84e0-4339-81a1-e71776714880" CreationDate="2023-12-21T02:41:55.970" UserId="398" Comment="added 408 characters in body" Text="The translation seems accurate here. The Greek doesn't seem to indicate Admete was part of the crew. The ending, where it says that Heracles carried off the girdle for Eurystheus and his daughter, almost seems to suggest the opposite.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The original source of Wikipedia and perhaps of Mayor (though she doesn't mention Lycophron here) and the Oxford Handbook seems to be [Smith's Biography](https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0104%3Aentry%3Dadmete-bio-2). When I checked Gantz, he doesn't mention it at all. He does however point to another source that covers the myth, if you have access to it and can read German:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Schauenburg's article &quot;Der Gürtel der Hippolyte&quot; in Philologus 104 (1960).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1524/phil.1960.104.12.1/html&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It's possible the version Smith is references exists somewhere, but if Smith had an error in citations, later scholars who didn't investigate fully could have just replicated his (or his sources') error." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30922" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10885" RevisionGUID="f39f01e6-000f-40a6-bf50-4d470f41ac45" CreationDate="2023-12-26T02:45:22.237" UserId="10888" Text="The &quot;stone things&quot; are Viking sunstones made of calcite. They're used to locate the sun on a foggy day. They help with navigation. Gilgamesh smashed them so now they're forced to &quot;punt&quot; the boat in shallow water near shore which requires them to make punting poles instead of being able to sail out over the water &amp; shorten their trip." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30924" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5974" RevisionGUID="96cff257-9fb7-4626-9c42-879c0cc47ac1" CreationDate="2023-12-26T06:09:23.513" UserId="2682" Comment="updated some details" Text="BASICS&#xD;&#xA;==========&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; - The most prevalent version of his name in literature across time thus&#xD;&#xA;   far is **Ephialtes**.&#xD;&#xA; - There seems to be a lost myth in which he does indeed get into a&#xD;&#xA;   fight with and is defeated by a hero, none other than **Herakles**&#xD;&#xA;   [Hercules] himself. In the clearest reference to this story, the daimon's name *is* Epiales; and apparently after the confrontation, Epiales turns into a hedgehog.&#xD;&#xA; - He is said to be a messenger, quite similar to&#xD;&#xA;   an angel, sent (benevolently) by the healing-god **Asklepios** [Asclepius]; and he is&#xD;&#xA;   also sometimes identified with the woodland deity **Pan**.&#xD;&#xA; - He survives into Modern Greek folklore (as recently as the 1600s if not&#xD;&#xA;   later still than that) as a sort of goblin identified with certain&#xD;&#xA;   other boogeymen haunting the popular culture of Greece. As with the ancient Ephialtes, certain writers explain away the nightmare-visions of these creatures as merely the result of over-eating and its consequent bad digestion, or that they are just tall tales invented to mess with little kids and with the uneducated and illiterate (which, until fairly recent modern times, happens to make up the bulk of the human population).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;DETAILS&#xD;&#xA;===========&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is something which appears to fit the criteria of your question precisely, but it is in German, with generous sprinklings of (completely untranslated) Ancient Greek (complete with some Latin occasionally peppered in for good measure):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; [***Ephialtes**: Eine pathologisch-mythologische Abhandlung über die Alpträume und Alpdämonen des klassischen Altertums*](https://archive.org/details/BIUSante_22155)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It was written (132 pages) by **Wilhelm Heinrich Roscher** and published 1900, in Leipzig, in Vol. 20 of The Treatises of the Philological-Historical Class of the Royal Saxon Society of Sciences. It is fully accessible in its entirety at the link above and is quite comprehensive.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;An English translation&lt;sup&gt;✭&lt;/sup&gt; of it is available on the same website but only in [Limited Book Preview](https://archive.org/details/pannightmare00rosc) form (although, as of the time of this post, it can be borrowed to be read online for an hour at a time), and the full title of which is: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; ***Pan and the Nightmare***:  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sup&gt;Being the Only English Translation (from the German by A.V. O'Brien, M.D.) of&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; *Ephialtes: A Pathological-Mythological Treatise on the Nightmare in Classical Antiquity*,  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sup&gt;by Wilhelm Heinrich Roscher (1900), together with&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; An Essay on Pan,   &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &lt;sup&gt;Serving as a Psychological Introduction to Roscher's *Ephialtes*,  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp;by James Hillman  &#xD;&#xA;&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; 1972, Spring Publications&lt;/sup&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Beyond this, as far as my findings go, there is no single Internet source in English containing a consolidation of all the information you're looking for (at least not as of the time of this posting).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Definition-Quest**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most of the original literature mentioning the subject refers to him, or *it*, as *Ephialtes* rather than Epiales. The bulk of information on Ephialtes is in medical manuals concerned with defining and describing diseases and other ailments, accompanied by treatment instructions for them. As summarised in the short Wikipedia article [&quot;Ephialtes (illness)&quot;](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephialtes_(illness)), this term generally refers to an anxiety disorder which causes sleep paralysis connected with dreaming:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The idea of an incubus as a causative factor in nightmares stemmed&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from the belief that some spirit or ghostly person crept in during the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; night and lay upon the sleeper, so as to constrict the chest and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; breathing—leading to a sense of suffocation, side by side with a&#xD;&#xA;&gt; terrifying dream of being either crushed or (in the case of a woman)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sexually violated by the (male) incubus or ephialtes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**In English and German**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As [another Wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mare_(folklore)) points out, the English word *nightmare* itself happens to originate from &quot;a malicious entity in Germanic and Slavic folklore that rides on people's chests while they sleep, bringing on bad dreams&quot;. In German &quot;nightmares&quot; are *Alpträume*, &quot;elf-dreams,&quot; and *Alpdrücke*, &quot;elf-oppression&quot; or &quot;elf-pressures,&quot; with an identical concept, in which an [*Alp*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alp_(folklore)#Post-medieval_folklore), &quot;elf,&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sits astride a sleeper's chest and becomes heavier until the crushing&#xD;&#xA;&gt; weight awakens the terrified and breathless dreamer. The victim awakes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; unable to move under the *Alp*'s weight. This may have been an early&#xD;&#xA;&gt; explanation for sleep apnea and sleep paralysis, as well as night&#xD;&#xA;&gt; terrors. It may also include lucid dreams.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roscher is also the general editor of the Ausführliches Lexikon der griechischen und römischen Mythologie, which contains a brief [&quot;Ephialtes&quot; article](https://archive.org/details/Roscher/page/n651) differentiating among three different personages bearing this name. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The first two are two different giants, both of whom fought against the gods. Here is my translation of the main portion of the entry on the third among these characters:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a *Spukgeist* {&quot;spook-spirit&quot;} of the same kind as the *incubus* and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the German *Alpe*; he is designated as a demon and identified with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Pan... He is also called *Epialtes*, *Epiales*,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *Epheles*, *Epopheles*, and so on; *Tiphys*, *Euopan*, *Baboutzikarios*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The article also cites Hesychius of Alexandria, who refers to this *Spukgeist* as *Opheles*. **Book 1 of Strabo's *Geography*** is also cited as a source, in which the author disparages the myths as merely the means by which bumpkins are indoctrinated into superstition and by which children are amused and terrified. In so saying Strabo then lists Ephialtes together with Lamia, &quot;the Gorgon&quot; and Mormolyke as nothing more than kid-stuff. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tussling with Herakles&#xD;&#xA;----------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Sophron of Syracuse** wrote mimes which currently survive only in fragments. The reason I refer to the story of the confrontation between Ephialtes and Herakles as a lost myth is because we know about it solely from a few of the aforementioned fragments, Numbered 68-73 (or 67-72 in a different system), which afford us only tantalisingly scant (and bizarre) detail. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Alan H. Sommerstein's 2009 book *Talking About Laughter: And Other Studies in Greek Comedy* (Oxford University Press) breaks it down (pp. 156-157), telling us of:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the nightmare-demon Epioles or Epiales, who suffocates (someone's? his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; own?) father, but is himself suffocated by Herakles and in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; process turns, apparently, into a hedgehog. A version of Epiales&#xD;&#xA;&gt; reappears, as Mastromarco among others has noted, as a victim of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Herakles-Aristophanes in *Wasps* 1038-9 (and also, as we shall see&#xD;&#xA;&gt; later, in a comedy by Phrynichos). Mastromarco seems to equate him&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with the giant Ephialtes, slain by Herakles (and Apollo) in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Gigantomachy [21] (Apollod. 1.6.2); but there is no evidence,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; literary or artistic, of any connection whatever between the Giants,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; whose typical weapons are boulders and whom Herakles fights with bows&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and arrows, and the nightmare-demon who chokes and is choked with bare&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hands. It is quite likely that the idea of a combat between Herakles&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and the folklore bogy Epiales was an invention of Sophron's, probably&#xD;&#xA;&gt; inspired by the similarity of name between Ēpiales and Ĕphialtes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The 1907 Neue Bearbeitung (Stuttgart) of Paulys Real-Encyclopädie der classischen Altertumswissenschaft contains an &quot;Epiales&quot; article which (in my own translation from the German) defines the personage as &quot;a *Spukdaemon* {'spook-daemon'} comparable to our *Alp* {'elf'}&quot; and interpreting this story as being comedic because herein &quot;Herakles himself acts as an *Alp* against the *Alp*,&quot; rendering unto the dream-demon a taste of his own medicine.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The most relevant part of Roscher's *Ephialtes* to you would be [pp. 52-53](https://archive.org/details/BIUSante_22155/page/n53), wherein this story is discussed, after going through the numerous different forms of this entity's name provided by Eustathius of Thessalonica. Here is my own translation thereof:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; But by far the most important thing we learn from Eustathius's note is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the myth contained in the fragment of Sophron, which shows that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Herakles was also haunted by the demon of nightmare (and fever?), but&#xD;&#xA;&gt; giving tit for tat, he choked that fiend in the same way he had tried&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to strangle him. As I have already explained in *RhM* 1898, p.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 179, in this otherwise lost legend we have to see a parallel to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; battle of Herakles with *Γῆρας*, Old Age personified, transmitted only&#xD;&#xA;&gt; through archaic artwork, or with Thanatos in Euripides' *Alkestis*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Roscher then points to Illustration #5 of [Plate XXXVI](https://archive.org/details/antiquegemsrings02king/page/n173) in Vol. 2 of Charles William King's collection *Antique Gems and Rings*. (See image below, followed by my translation of his description thereof.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![King - AntiqueGems+Rings Vol.2, Pl. 36, No.5][1]][1]      &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Perhaps that myth of Epiales and Herakles is within {*this picture*} ...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Herakles sits in the posture of one who is exhausted or just falling&#xD;&#xA;&gt; asleep, his head and torso leaning forward, his right hand resting on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his club, on a stone (?); approaching from behind, surreptitiously, so&#xD;&#xA;&gt; it would appear, is a powerful bearded man with large wings, who holds&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a branch or poppy-stem in his left hand, and with his right, seems to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; grasp the hero's throat as though to strangle it (cf. therefore the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; definition of *Ήπιάλης* {*Hepiales*} as a demon, *ὅς τοῖς κοιμωμένοις&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ἐφέρπει* or *ἐπέρχεται* in Bekk. An. 42, I &amp; in Etym. M. 434, 5).&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Similarly, Hypnos often appears in artwork as a bearded demon, usually&#xD;&#xA;&gt; standing behind the sleeper, less often walking towards him, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; casting sleep from a horn above him; sometimes he touches the temples&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of the weary person with a branch or poppy-stalk wet with lethaean dew;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; he is often winged. It scarcely needs to be remarked that the demon of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the nightmare, which acts only in sleep or in the stage immediately&#xD;&#xA;&gt; preceding it (see pp. 11 &amp; 24), or the fever (*ήπίαλος*) accompanied&#xD;&#xA;&gt; by restless, frightful dreams, i.e. *Ήπιάλης*, must from the outset&#xD;&#xA;&gt; have had many things in common with Hypnos (and Oneiros).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Footnote 149 on p. 53 points out that in his *Fabulae*, the Roman writer Hyginus lists names of Somnia, &quot;Dreams&quot; (i.e. the personifications and spirits of dreams), who were born, among other entities, to Erebus (Darkness) and Nox (Night). One of these names is Epaphus, and, like several other things in Hyginus, is most likely a mistake, which Roscher says should be read as &quot;Epialus.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He does make reference, however, to a 4-century BC magical tablet from Crete (quoted in untranslated Ancient Greek in that footnote), containing a chant saying (going by my own novice translation), &quot;*Epaphos, Epaphos, Epaphos, flee, flee along with the she-wolf* (Lýkaina?), || *Flee, o dog*&quot;, etc. Another author, Schmidt, is cited here as interpreting Epaphos to be: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;a kind of *Alp*&quot;. However, as several undoubted demons in animal form &#xD;&#xA;&gt; are named one after another in these verses... it is thus probable to me &#xD;&#xA;&gt; that we also have to perceive in *ἕπαφος* {*epaphos*} an animal demon, &#xD;&#xA;&gt; namely the hoopoe.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;OTHER SOURCES&#xD;&#xA;-------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Phrynichus the Comedian**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As with Sophron, the work of the comic poet Phrynichus can now be found only in scant fragmentary condition. One of the ten plays that he wrote, Sommerstein (on p. 173 of his book) tells us:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; appears to have been named after the nightmare-demon Epialtes, who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; in... fr. 1... appears to be addressing the audience and saying he was&#xD;&#xA;&gt; given his name 'on account of his manly virtue' (*ἀνδραγαθίας&#xD;&#xA;&gt; οὕνεκα*); it looks very much as if the audience's sympathies are to be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; engaged on Epialtes' side right from the start.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And we know virtually nothing else about this theatre-piece, which I have otherwise seen generally entitled *Ephialtes* (rather than *Epialtes*).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To your Question regarding &quot;all of the details,&quot; the most pertinent resource after Roscher's *Ephialtes* is the 2018 book published by Brill (Leiden &amp; Boston), ed. Chiara Thumiger &amp; P.N. Singer, *Mental Illness in Ancient Medicine: From Celsus to Paul of Aegina*. For our purposes, the book's second chapter, by **Nadine Metzger**, entitled '**&quot;Not a *Daimōn*, but a Severe Illness&quot;**: Oribasius, Posidonius and Later Ancient Perspectives on Superhuman Agents Causing Disease,' is the one most applicable. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Central to your query is the second half of the chapter (pp. 94-106), which Metzger entitles &quot;[**The Case of Ephialtes in Fourth-Century Medicine**](https://books.google.com/books?id=yntTDwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA94#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false)&quot;, and wherein (pp. 94-95) she writes:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Connections are made in all the sources between Ephialtes and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *epilēpsia*, and their respective attacks are considered comparable with one another—one while awake, one during sleep. Accordingly, the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; late antique compilers place their comparatively short chapters on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ephialtes directly before the much more important *epilēpsia*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; categorising both as a sickness of the head. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Chapters on Ephialtes can be found in the medical compilations of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Oribasius (*Synopsis*), Aëtius of Amida, Paul of Aegina and Paulus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Nicaeus...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Paulus Nicaeus writes that many people believe Ephialtes to be a god&#xD;&#xA;&gt; or *daimōn* whch attacks sufferers at night.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is then pointed out that these writers' opinions differ regarding the origin of this Ephialtes, whereupon **Aëtius 6.12** is cited as quoting **Posidonius** (pp. 95-96):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The so-called Ephialtes is no *daimōn*, but rather a sickness and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; premonitory symptom of *epilēpsia*, *mania* and *apoplēxia*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A Message of Healing from Asklepios&#xD;&#xA;------------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to **Oribasius' *Synopsis* 8.2** (on p. 96 of *Mental Illness in Ancient Medicine*):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The so-called Ephialtes is no evil *daimōn*, but rather on the one&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hand a serious illness, and on the other hand a heavenly interpreter&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and servant of Asclepius.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Metzger continues on pp. 100-101:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This &quot;emissary of Asclepius&quot; refers to the healing practice of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; incubation, in which a cure is granted or therapeutic measures&#xD;&#xA;&gt; revealed to the suffering patient through a dream vision in a shrine&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to Asclepius. A dream vision could also provide insight into one's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; health independently of an incubation; numerous examples of such&#xD;&#xA;&gt; prognostic dreams can be found in Artemidorus' work on dream&#xD;&#xA;&gt; interpretation, written in the second half of the second century CE. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; As a matter of fact, Artemidorus specifically discusses Ephialtes in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his dream book. The passage places central importance on the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; characteristic which defines Ephialtes in the medical sources, namely&#xD;&#xA;&gt; nightmare oppression. Other than that Ephialtes is able to speak with&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dreamers, give something to them, or engage them in sexual&#xD;&#xA;&gt; intercourse. He can make prophecies and, most importantly, give the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sick a positive prognosis...&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;R.J. White's translation of **Artemidorus' *Oneirocritica**: Interpretation of Dreams* **2.37** is then quoted:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Regardless of what he does when he approaches, it signifies that the sick&#xD;&#xA;&gt; will recover. For he never associates with a man who is going to die.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding this, Metzger says (p. 101) that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Similarly to Artemidorus, Oribasius' text contains the possibility of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ephialtes having a medical-prognostic function too; his mentioning of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Asclepius as a healing god, who usually appears to sick people in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dreams to provide them with insight into their condition, implies that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; his &quot;mediator&quot; Ephialtes fulfils the same function. Apparently,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Oribasius not only displays an open-minded attitude towards the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; possibility of heavenly influence on the human body, but recognises&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the healing powers of Asclepius transmitted through his emissaries...&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Moreover on p. 102:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;By Oribasius' time, the idea of a daimonic mediator operating between&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Asclepius and the human patient has unfolded in Neoplatonic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; philosophy. Primarily this cosmology tends to place higher deities&#xD;&#xA;&gt; such as Asclepius far into transcendency and excludes them from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; interacting with mortal materiality, generally considered to be in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; opposition to the heavenly sphere. To maintain this higher deity's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; influence on the world, a messenger—a daimonic intermediary—which&#xD;&#xA;&gt; makes contact with the human must be assumed. This allows the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; philosophically important distance between man and god to be upheld&#xD;&#xA;&gt; over the course of this contact. The idea can already be found in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Plato's *Symposium*, in which Eros is described as intermediary&#xD;&#xA;&gt; between the gods and humans (*ἑρμηνεῦον καὶ διαπορθμεῦον*). *Daimones*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; are made of more material matter (*ὕλη*) than the gods, which allows&#xD;&#xA;&gt; them to interact with the material world in a way in which the gods cannot.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; This concept becomes elaborately fleshed out in Neoplatonic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; demonology.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus Henk Versnel elaborates in his book *Coping with the Gods: Wayward Readings in Greek Theology* (Brill, 2011:404) that Artemidorus in this sense enumerates Ephialtes together with Hekate and Pan as &quot;the *epigegoi* (terrestrial) and *aisthetoi* gods (who can be perceived with the senses as opposed to those through intellect only: *noetoi*).&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Prescriptions Against Bad Dreams&#xD;&#xA;--------------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Jovan Bilbija contributes the 10th chapter, entitled &quot;The Stuff of Dreams: Substances and Dreams in Greek and Latin Literature&quot; (pp. 217-251) to the 2013 Routledge book *Dreams, Healing, and Medicine in Greece: From Antiquity to the Present* (ed. Steven Oberhelman).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to p. 223 thereof: &quot;In medical literature, substances for preventing bad dreams are generally medicines against ἐφιάλτης/*incubus*.&quot; Bilbija then summarises the basic variations of purgatives to be ingested and talismans to be worn in order to rid oneself of this *ephialtes-incubus*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On p. 238 some ancient writers are quoted recommending *hellebore*, regarding which Bilbija says in Footnote 114:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;In our passages it is the purgative black hellebore (*Helleborus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; cyclophyllus* Boiss.); cf. C. Hünemörder, *BNP*, s.v. &quot;Hellebore.&quot; The&#xD;&#xA;&gt; term ἑλλέβορος was also used for *Veratrum album* L.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Helleborus cyclophyllus][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Entry A for this plant is **Rufus of Ephesus *apud* Oribasius, *Medical Questions* 7.26.177**:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hellebore (ἑλλέβορος) can be administered as a purgative (καθαρτήριον)&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to those who are throttled at night by a nightmare (ἐφιάλτης).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Footnote 115 (same page):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Elsewhere, Oribasius (*Medical Questions* 7.26.15 [p. 228, 31-p.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; 229, 3 Raeder]) mentions purgation as a remedy for frightening and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; disturbing dreams (ἐνύπνια φοβερὰ καὶ ταραχώδη).&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Entry B for the same plant (on the same page) is **Oribasius, *Synopsis for Eustathius* 8.2** (p. 245, 10-12 Raeder):             &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Hellebore is especially useful to those who suffer from nightmares&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (ἐφιάλτικοί). They should be given one drachma of black hellebore&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (μέλας ἑλλέβορος) mixed with three obols of scammony (σκαμμωνία) and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; some aromatics like anise, wild carrot, or parsley.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Hiera of Colocynth* is listed next, which, according to Bilbija, denotes the *Citrullus colocynthis*. He quotes Scribonius Largus (100), who, writing in Latin, recommends this for &quot;relief to those who suffer from shortness of breath, asphyxiation, and nightmare (*incubo*).&quot; The Greek quotes continue (on p. 239) with more from the same above-cited section of Oribasius' *Synopsis* as Entry B for this plant:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The hiera of colocynth (ἡ διὰ τῆς σικυωνίασ ἱερά) is very serviceable&#xD;&#xA;&gt; to those who suffer from nightmares (ἐφιάλτικοί). Patients should keep&#xD;&#xA;&gt; their diet light and avoid flatulent food.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Citrullus colocynthis][3]][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Entry C for this plant is **Aëtius of Amida 6.12** (p. 152, 27-8 Olivieri):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; When a person suffers from nightmares because of an unhealthy state of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the humors (κακοχυμία), one may purge him with the hiera of Archigenes&#xD;&#xA;&gt; (ἡ ἱερά Αρχιγένουσ).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Footnote 124: &quot;Aëtius provides a recipe for this hiera of colocynth at 3.115 (p. 304, 9-16 Olivieri).&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And that covers all of the &quot;*Other references not currently quoted*&quot; on your Theoi.com Epiales page, except for the following, also listed in *Dreams, Healing, and Medicine in Greece*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Dioscorides 3.140**: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Drinking 15 black grains (κόκκοι) of peony (γλυκισίδη) with hydromel&#xD;&#xA;&gt; or wine will help those who are throttled (οἱ πνιγόμενοι) by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; nightmares (ἐφιάλται). It also helps those with stomach problems and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; it relieves women with a suffocating or painful womb.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Dioscorides, *On Simple Medicines* 1.28**: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Those who are often suffocated by nightmares (οἱ ὑπὸ τῶν ἐφιαλτῶν&#xD;&#xA;&gt; πνιγόμενοι) are healed by frequent drinks of a mixture of 15 black&#xD;&#xA;&gt; grains of peony (γλυκισίδη) with water.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Oribasius, *Synopsis for Eustathius* 8.2** (p. 245, 13-15 Raeder):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Those who suffer from nightmares (ἐφιάλτικοί) will benefit from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; frequently drinking 15 pounded grains of peony (παιωνία) with water.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Based on those, if one were to make up a single English word for the victims of Ephialtes (rather than the translation &quot;those who suffer from nightmares&quot;), it should probably be &quot;ephialtics&quot; (cf. *epileptics*).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is Francis Adams' 1844 translation of **Paul of Aegina 3.15** (with my own emphasis):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;Some say that this disorder is called *ephialtes* in Greek, from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the name of a man, or from those in it fancying as if one leaped upon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; them. But Themison, in the tenth book of his Epistles, calls it&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *pnigaleon*, from a Greek word signifying suffocation. It attacks persons after a surfeit, and who are labouring under protracted&#xD;&#xA;&gt; indigestion. Persons suffering an attack experience incapability of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; motion, a torpid sensation in their sleep, a sense of suffocation, and&#xD;&#xA;&gt; oppression, as if from one pressing them down, with inability to cry&#xD;&#xA;&gt; out, or they utter inarticulate sounds. **Some imagine often that they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; even hear the person who is going to press them down, that he offers&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lustful violence to them, but flies when they attempt to grasp him&#xD;&#xA;&gt; with their fingers.** The evil must be guarded against at the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; commencement; for when it continues long, and attacks every night, it&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is the forerunner of some serious disease, such as apoplexy, mania, or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; epilepsy, when the exciting cause is determined to the head; for such&#xD;&#xA;&gt; as persons affected with epilepsy are, during the day, those labouring&#xD;&#xA;&gt; under nightmare are in their sleep. We must evacuate the patient's&#xD;&#xA;&gt; general system by opening a vein and administering purgatives. Black&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hellebore is especially serviceable to such persons when given to the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; amount of a drachm, if three oboli of scammony, and some of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; aromatics, such as anise, wild carrot, and Macedonian parsley, be&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mixed with it. The composition called hiera, from wild gourd, is also&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of great service; it is the hiera of Ruffus. The diet should be light,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and they ought to avoid everything that is flatulent. They are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; benefited also by the fruit of peony: fifteen of the black grains of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; which may be pounded with water and drunk frequently.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Adams provides some supplementary details in his Commentary on this chapter on [p. 389](https://archive.org/details/sevenbooksofpaul01pauluoft/page/389) of Vol. 1 of *The Seven Books of Paulus Ægineta*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Identification with Modern Ghouls&#xD;&#xA;---------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The **Suda** entry &quot;Ephialtes&quot; says that he is &quot;the one called by many ***Baboutzikarios***&quot; just before a second definition: &quot;The vapour which rises into the head, caused by overeating and indigestion, is called *ephialtes* by physicians.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Evy Johanne Håland says in her book *Competing Ideologies in Greek Culture, Ancient and Modern* (Cambridge Scholars Publishing, 2019:119) that the Baboutzikarios is said to be of Slavic origin. This would then dovetail with our English night-*mare*, which as we have already observed (see the &quot;In English and German&quot; section of this Answer) above, also has a Slavic connection.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Leo Allatius published a sort of cultural guidebook in 1645, which Karen Hartnup expounds upon in her own 2004 book which incorporates the title of his text into its own: *'On the Beliefs of the Greeks': Leo Allatios and Popular Orthodoxy* (Brill: Leiden &amp; Boston). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hartnup reports the following about Allatius' narration of some of the practices of his fellow Christian Greeks in the 1600s (pp. 29-30, with my own emphasis):  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;In chapter X Allatios accepts Psellos' interpretation of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; *babutzikarios*, a kind of frightening goblin that is supposed to appear over the Christmas period... Even though such demons do not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; exist, people actually see the demonic beings but this is&#xD;&#xA;&gt; because of hallucinations brough about by over-indulgence in the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; seasonal festivities. Allatios points out that this *exotiko* is not&#xD;&#xA;&gt; always understood this way. The Byzantine dictionary *Suidas*&#xD;&#xA;&gt; describes the *babutzikarios* in terms of *ephialtes* — a nightmare&#xD;&#xA;&gt; brought on by indigestion. However, the 'common people' continue to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; believe that those born at Christmas are every year possessed by the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; devil during this week and attack people on the roads, asking 'Rope or&#xD;&#xA;&gt; lead?' Those who reply 'Lead', the possessed person crushes to death;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; those who reply 'Rope', he sets free. The Greeks distract the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; possessed over the Christmas season by making them count the holes in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; a sieve. This kind of *babutzikarios* is identical to the creature&#xD;&#xA;&gt; called by others '***kallikantzaros***', which is the focus of Allatios'&#xD;&#xA;&gt; next chapter...&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sup&gt;*Kallikantzaroi* are also goblin-like creatures that appear&#xD;&#xA;&gt; between Christmas and the New Year. People try to ward them off by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wearing new clothes and the population of Chios believes that they&#xD;&#xA;&gt; congregate in wooded and inaccessible places, where those of unsound&#xD;&#xA;&gt; mind are also thought to originate. In order to prevent those born&#xD;&#xA;&gt; between Christmas and New Year becoming *kallikantzaroi* they burn the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; soles of their feet and remove their nails.&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Endnote***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sup&gt;✭ *Which comes to my attention courtesy of tblue, a fellow Mythology StackExchange user.*&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/9SkAQ.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/6y0CK.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Rlkdo.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30925" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10627" RevisionGUID="a98e3cf0-257a-4b7c-928b-a4cdfb53d1b2" CreationDate="2023-12-26T06:35:11.433" UserId="2682" Comment="adjusted the Latin translation" Text="In 1629, Claude de Saumaise, who also styled himself by a Latinised form of his name, as Claudius Salmasius, wrote a commentary on Solinus's *Polyhistor* text to which you are referring. He was just as puzzled as you are about this reference to an Ionian region of Italy, and so spends a good chunk of paragraph, dealing with the exact-same selection of text that you have highlighted in an attempt to explain it, in which he starts off by stating, simply, that, &quot;**I know of no Ionian region** [*regionem Ionicam*] **in Italy.**&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He then goes on to cite the African writer Martianus Capella &quot;who, when he wrote this passage, changed 'the Ionian region [*regionem Ionicam*]' into 'the Ionian Sea [*mare Ionium*]'&quot;, apparently having thought along similar lines as yourself regarding possible meaningful solutions to the quandary. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From what de Saumaise goes on to say, however, he clearly thinks it to be a much bigger mistake than this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thus he writes: *the same was given the name Ionian, for he killed Ione, daughter of Aulochus, who was obstructing the highways in a robber-like manner.* It&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is indeed published here and there in Martianus, *he gave the same&#xD;&#xA;&gt; name to Ionia*, but all his written copies read *Ionio*. Solinus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; wanted something else. Stephanus says that they want it to be called&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ionium from Ionius Italus, others from Ionius Illyrius. Servius says&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that Ionius was king of that island against Illyricum. However, none of this&#xD;&#xA;&gt; applies to the Ionian region. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Moreover, who is this *Naulochus* whose daughter was Ione, or, as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; other books call him, *Aulochus*? In the written books of Martianus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Capella it is said *Autoclus*. It could be Αὕτοκλος, as Οἵνοκλος,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ἄνδροκλος. However, I think it better written as *the daughter&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Autolycus*, the notorious thief known from fables, who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; had a daughter similar to himself, Ione, impudently obstructing the roads. Ἰόνη was one of the Nereids according to Apollodorus. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Upon the Ionian region, however, still we hesitate. What if Solinus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; had written *Chonica*, and *chone*? The Chonic region, ἡ Χωνικὴ, from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the city of Chone in Italy, whence the Chones themselves were called&#xD;&#xA;&gt; χῶνες. Some make them the people of Oenotria, others separate them&#xD;&#xA;&gt; from Oenotris. Strabo in Book VI reports from the opinion of some, that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Philoctetes founded a city, Chone, in Italy, from which the people are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; χῶνες. Aristotle says that *they held the region along with Iapygia and the Ionian Sea*. Lycophron calls their country Χωνίαν...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; This Chonic region, Solinus says, followed by his authorities, is named after Chone, the daughter of Autolycus. We noted above that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Ionians came to Italy and founded cities according to Lycophron&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and Strabo, but no one has written that any region was named Ionian by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; them, nor does Solinus say this. However, it is easy to mistake and turn *Chonica* into *Ionicam*, especially for someone unfamiliar with Chonica and trying to make it more recognisable.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That is my own translation of de Saumaise's Latin text, excerpting the portion of his commentary relevant to your question, for the print publication of which, see below.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Abstracted from p. 42 of Vol. 1 of *Plinianae Exercitationes in Caii Iulii Solini Polyhistora* at the Bayerische Staatsbibliothek, obtained via the Münchener DigitalisierungsZentrum (MDZ) Digitale Bibliothek.&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As de Saumaise notes, certain versions of the *Polyhistor* refer to Ione's father as Naulochus, rather than Aulochus, and he has his ingenious ideas, as above, for how to make sense of the otherwise completely obscure *Aulochus*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***N***aulochus, however, is more intelligible to me as quite likely the eponym of the ancient city of the same name on Sicily's northeastern coast, famous for being the scene of a naval battle between Sextus Pompeius and Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa during the Roman civil war in the 30s BC leading up to Octavian (later Augustus Caesar) taking control of the Roman empire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Paris 1847 C.L.F. Panckoucke edition of the *Polyhistor*, which has Ione's father as *Naulochus*, entitles this section of the text &quot;*De Italia*&quot; (&quot;About Italy&quot;), so as you observe, indeed this *regionem Ionicam* contextually should be a place in Italy. De Saumaise's commentary appears to completely dismiss this as a possibility, whence his explanations that boil the matter down to scribal errors or such.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The closest I could arrive at an alternative position on this would be essentially that perhaps what is intended here is the coastline of Italy bounding the Ionian Sea, which is to say the &quot;sole&quot; of Italy's &quot;boot.&quot; Calabria, the &quot;toe&quot; of Italy, abuts the corner of Sicily in which the city of Naulochus would have been located. At least two towns in the region, Gioiosa Ionica and Roccella Ionica, bear the idea in their names.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Spadafora Map_][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Supposedly ancient Naulochus was somewhere near what is now Spadafora.*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The shores on this side of the country are referred to at present day as its *costa ionica*, &quot;Ionian coast&quot;, but I don't know that this would have been a normal way to think of it in ancient times nor whether this would have been equivalent to *regionem Ionicam*.     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ugQlf.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/B2VIE.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30926" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10886" RevisionGUID="ad957a69-0863-49a3-9aac-0d54f8b86b8a" CreationDate="2023-12-28T21:39:10.920" UserDisplayName="anon" Text="Today almost all of of the gods are mostly referred by their Greek names, with Hercules and Cupid being two notable exceptions.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is there any reason why we mostly use Hercules and Cupid, instead of Heracles and Eros respectively?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30928" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10886" RevisionGUID="ad957a69-0863-49a3-9aac-0d54f8b86b8a" CreationDate="2023-12-28T21:39:10.920" UserDisplayName="anon" Text="Why is the use of Greek or Roman names inconsistent today?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30929" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10886" RevisionGUID="ad957a69-0863-49a3-9aac-0d54f8b86b8a" CreationDate="2023-12-28T21:39:10.920" UserDisplayName="anon" Text="|greek|roman|names|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30930" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10627" RevisionGUID="f61828e0-ae9c-4840-8070-59613885a9f1" CreationDate="2023-12-28T22:34:43.050" UserId="2682" Comment="adjusted the Latin translation" Text="In 1629, Claude de Saumaise, who also styled himself by a Latinised form of his name, as Claudius Salmasius, wrote a commentary on Solinus's *Polyhistor* text to which you are referring. He was just as puzzled as you are about this reference to an Ionian region of Italy, and so spends a good chunk of paragraph, dealing with the exact-same selection of text that you have highlighted in an attempt to explain it, in which he starts off by stating, simply, that, &quot;**I know of no Ionian region** [*regionem Ionicam*] **in Italy.**&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He then goes on to cite the African writer Martianus Capella &quot;who, when he wrote this passage, changed 'the Ionian region [*regionem Ionicam*]' into 'the Ionian Sea [*mare Ionium*]'&quot;, apparently having thought along similar lines as yourself regarding possible meaningful solutions to the quandary. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From what de Saumaise goes on to say, however, he clearly thinks it to be a much bigger mistake than this:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thus he writes: *the same also gave Ionia its name, for he killed Ione, daughter of Aulochus, who was blocking the highways like a bandit.* It&#xD;&#xA;&gt; is indeed published here and there in Martianus, *he gave the same&#xD;&#xA;&gt; name to Ionia*, but all his written copies read *Ionio*. Solinus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; meant something else. Stephanus says that some want it to be called&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Ionian&quot; from the Italian Ionius, others from the Illyrian Ionius. Servius says&#xD;&#xA;&gt; that Ionius was king of the island opposite Illyria. This has nothing to do with the Ionian region. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Moreover, who is this *Naulochus* whose daughter was Ione, or, as&#xD;&#xA;&gt; other books call him, *Aulochus*? In the written books of Martianus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Capella it is said *Autoclus*. It could be Αὕτοκλος, as Οἵνοκλος,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Ἄνδροκλος. However, I think it better written as *the daughter&#xD;&#xA;&gt; of Autolycus*, the notorious thief known from fables, who&#xD;&#xA;&gt; had a daughter similar to himself, Ione, impudently obstructing the roads. Ἰόνη was one of the Nereids according to Apollodorus. &#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Upon the Ionian region, however, still we hesitate. What if Solinus&#xD;&#xA;&gt; had written *Chonica*, and *chone*? The Chonic region, ἡ Χωνικὴ, from&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the city of Chone in Italy, whence the Chones themselves were called&#xD;&#xA;&gt; χῶνες. Some make them a people of Oenotria, others separate them from the Oenotrians. Strabo, in Book VI, reports from the opinion of some, that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Philoctetes founded a city, Chone, in Italy, from which the people are&#xD;&#xA;&gt; χῶνες. Aristotle says that *they held sway over Iapygia and Ionia*. Lycophron calls their country Χωνίαν...&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&gt; This Chonic region, Solinus says, followed by his authorities, is named after Chone, the daughter of Autolycus. We noted above that&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the Ionians came to Italy and founded cities according to Lycophron&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and Strabo, but no one has written that any region was named Ionian by&#xD;&#xA;&gt; them, nor does Solinus say this. However, it is easy to mistake and turn *Chonica* into *Ionicam*, especially for someone unfamiliar with Chonica and trying to make it more recognisable.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That is my own translation of de Saumaise's Latin text, excerpting the portion of his commentary relevant to your question, for the print publication of which, see below.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![enter image description here][1]][1]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;Abstracted from p. 42 of Vol. 1 of *Plinianae Exercitationes in Caii Iulii Solini Polyhistora* at the Bayerische Staatsbibliothek, obtained via the Münchener DigitalisierungsZentrum (MDZ) Digitale Bibliothek.&lt;/sub&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As de Saumaise notes, certain versions of the *Polyhistor* refer to Ione's father as Naulochus, rather than Aulochus, and he has his ingenious ideas, as above, for how to make sense of the otherwise completely obscure *Aulochus*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***N***aulochus, however, is more intelligible to me as quite likely the eponym of the ancient city of the same name on Sicily's northeastern coast, famous for being the scene of a naval battle between Sextus Pompeius and Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa during the Roman civil war in the 30s BC leading up to Octavian (later Augustus Caesar) taking control of the Roman empire.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Paris 1847 C.L.F. Panckoucke edition of the *Polyhistor*, which has Ione's father as *Naulochus*, entitles this section of the text &quot;*De Italia*&quot; (&quot;About Italy&quot;), so as you observe, indeed this *regionem Ionicam* contextually should be a place in Italy. De Saumaise's commentary appears to completely dismiss this as a possibility, whence his explanations that boil the matter down to scribal errors or such.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The closest I could arrive at an alternative position on this would be essentially that perhaps what is intended here is the coastline of Italy bounding the Ionian Sea, which is to say the &quot;sole&quot; of Italy's &quot;boot.&quot; Calabria, the &quot;toe&quot; of Italy, abuts the corner of Sicily in which the city of Naulochus would have been located. At least two towns in the region, Gioiosa Ionica and Roccella Ionica, bear the idea in their names.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Spadafora Map_][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Supposedly ancient Naulochus was somewhere near what is now Spadafora.*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The shores on this side of the country are referred to at present day as its *costa ionica*, &quot;Ionian coast&quot;, but I don't know that this would have been a normal way to think of it in ancient times nor whether this would have been equivalent to *regionem Ionicam*.     &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/ugQlf.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/B2VIE.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30939" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10889" RevisionGUID="6cfcd8d4-b738-4dbc-8702-07a88f8147f7" CreationDate="2024-01-04T00:41:21.350" UserId="3373" Text="First of all, they were named differently in Greece and Rome. Also, there were different names for different aspects of Gods, in the modern sense in non-academic sources people either use it losely, or take an easy path, but the precision is preserved in academic books and treatises and journals: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hekate could be Hekate-Artemis, Hekate-Epigurgidia, Hekate-Eileuthyja etc. Apart from that, the geographical zone mattered, Thracian Zeus Sabazios was not the same as Zeus Dolichoneus, or Zeus Hypsistos (Hellenic-Jewish version of Zeus). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is also a notion of syncretism here, for example Anubis + Hermes = Hermanubis as in bionic statues, for example. Citing Emperor Julian &quot;mythology is for toothing children, wisdom to comprehend powers and forces is philosophy&quot;. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As long as you agree with the axiom that ontologically, the forces and powers, ideas cast upon the world are real, everything is splendid and intelligible, then comes the geometry, mathematics, architecure, music, science, philosophy, astronomy, government - all supported by theological greatness of ancients.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Mythology is great, inspiring and fun but it is more of &quot;tale about human play of Gods&quot;, theology is the &quot;word about the Gods&quot;, therefore Graeco-Roman theology which to my great woe is not taught in schools is the key to understand the mythology. Someone voted it down, no idea why, it's an excellent question at its core. Good luck and thank you. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30955" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3194" RevisionGUID="8391b16e-e53b-4b91-ba86-87bd98e69a6e" CreationDate="2024-01-07T00:07:40.930" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30956" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="7586" RevisionGUID="2ee4883f-61a7-4f17-b0ab-5f48c35c8cd3" CreationDate="2024-01-08T00:31:23.607" UserId="2682" Comment="adjusted a detail; &amp; edited links" Text="Mediaeval compilations referencing older, potentially ancient works do mention the story. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is narrated (p. 359) as Item No. II of the &quot;Διηγηματα&quot; in the &quot;Appendix: *Narrationum*&quot; chapter of Anton Westermann's 1843 book [*Mythographoi: Scriptores poeticae historiae graeci*](https://archive.org/details/mythographoiscri00westuoft/page/358/mode/2up?view=theater). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Cited as the source here is the *Progymnasmata* 2, by Aphthonius of Antioch (c. 4th century AD), as well as a commentary on the same work by John Doxopatres (11th century AD).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The story also occurs, narrated practically verbatim, in the *Geoponika* [*Geoponica*], &quot;Agricultural Pursuits,&quot; which Wikipedia describes as &quot;a twenty-book collection of agricultural lore, compiled during the 10th century in Constantinople for the Byzantine emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus.&quot; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;According to the relevant passage thereof, i.e. Book 11, Chapter 17, entitled &quot;Concerning the Rose&quot;,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Let him that admires the beauty of the rose, reflect on the wound of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Aphrodite, they say; for the goddess indeed loved Adonis, and Ares on&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the other hand loved her: but Ares in a fit of jealousy killed Adonis,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; thinking that the death of Adonis would put an end to her affection&#xD;&#xA;&gt; for him; but the goddess, having understood what had been done,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; hastened to be revenged; and throwing herself in a hurry on the rose,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; when without her sandals, she was wounded by the thorns of the rose in&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the sole of her foot; and the rose, which was before white, from the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; blood of Aphrodite, changed into the colour in which it is now seen,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and it became red and sweet-scented. But others say that, when the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; gods were feasting above, and there stood a great quantity of nectar,&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Eros led the dance, and with his wing struck the bottom of the bowl&#xD;&#xA;&gt; and overturned it, and that the nectar poured on the ground made the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; rose of a red colour.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On p. 226 (Footnote 3) of Vol. 1 of his 1914 book [*The Golden Bough*](https://books.google.com/books?id=v5nqqOcVu84C&amp;pg=PA226#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false), James George Frazer cites John Tzetzes' commentary on Lycophron's *Alexandra* 831 as a source for the myth, but I have struggled to find any explicit mention of such a thing therein, beyond a reference to the Muses weeping for Adonis upon his death. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*Alexandra* is an extremely cryptic poem narrated essentially in riddles, though, so it might just be that I don't get it, even with Tzetzes' commentary. If Lycophron did indeed allude to the story in *Alexandra*, this would be an undoubtedly ancient primary source for it, several centuries older than the aforementioned compilations.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Also ancient but sometime later than Lycophron, Bion's [*Epitaph of Adonis*](https://www.theoi.com/Text/Bion.html) (commonly referred to in English also as *Lament for Adonis*) tells a slightly different version of the story, in which Aphrodite cuts herself on thorns as she rushes through the woods on her way to the fallen Adonis, but in the end it is Adonis' blood which turns into roses. Aphrodite in turn sheds a tear for each drop of his blood, and these tears turn into windflowers (anemones)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30957" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10893" RevisionGUID="e8032fe2-0b8b-45f0-84f7-e91b1cb55d13" CreationDate="2024-01-09T09:44:08.127" UserId="10918" Text="Merchant of Venice meets blood libel — of course it is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rumpelstiltskin is physically different — he's short — has a strange name, shows up at a time of need, to put the miller's daughter in his debt, and comes back to exact his 'pound of flesh' when she is married into nobility.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;His name is not typically Jewish, but that it is uncommon is emphasised by the guessing game, and the queen mentioning Heinz and Kunz, common German names, which he's not." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30960" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10893" RevisionGUID="a6bc8b3d-2f46-4afa-a314-c9a921465e01" CreationDate="2024-01-10T09:01:47.033" UserId="10918" Comment="deleted 13 characters in body" Text="Merchant of Venice meets blood libel — of course it is.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Rumpelstiltskin is physically strange, has a convoluted name, shows up at a time of need, to put the miller's daughter in his debt, and comes back to exact his 'pound of flesh' when she is married into nobility.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;His name is not typically Jewish, but that it is uncommon is emphasised by the guessing game, and the queen mentioning Heinz and Kunz, common German names, which he's not." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30963" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6144" RevisionGUID="178e5f42-0bd8-42eb-a584-12cc52aba8cd" CreationDate="2024-01-16T07:01:05.113" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30964" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="10466" RevisionGUID="0c2f5ae9-396d-4398-819d-773a25747389" CreationDate="2024-01-19T06:01:30.203" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30965" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="10561" RevisionGUID="e8385862-de6a-473c-ab3d-c9f9f4ce7e1b" CreationDate="2024-01-19T18:07:30.817" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30971" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10895" RevisionGUID="bd313b1e-315d-4023-a267-f8cf2be2dc90" CreationDate="2024-01-22T18:29:04.167" UserId="3373" Text="I'll use my book review for the answer: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Extensive and well-annotated work with an informative introduction, presenting 38 out of 600 known and preserved Coptic Spells dated from III-XI centuries, in Faiyumic, Sahidic and Middle Egyptian, Bohairic coptic language variants&#xD;&#xA;Usually, when it comes to magickal technology, I observe the meta-structure of superoganic ideas, therefore the “deep grammar” of a given tradition, the mechanics torn of context and words, once I grasp it in historical setting, I tend to understand the “fillings”, whether be it sacred names, kharakteres*, figures, formularies etc.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Of course, a tradition would not work without a metaphysical system backing it, in mere isolation, in this case this is hooked up under Judeo-Christian layering architecture. How to understand an “architecture”? It is a historical layer construed magically that is filtering the powers, forces, natures of Earth, the Solar System and the stars in a specific religo-ethno-magickal way, attempting to bind objective forces to the given religion, tradition etc. Sometimes it is supported by cohorts of souls working in these traditions, after they were conceived in a particular belief-system, sometimes it is pointless, attempting to rebrand older traditions in new ways.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;On a personal note: It seems that Judeo-Christian traditions didn't go to any extent to understand more profound ancient mysteries, like the Pharaonic deities Isis-Osiris-Horus, whose cults ceased to be operational by 5th century modern era, nevertheless they were preserved in Coptic Papyri in a mixture of Christianity and Egyptian ancient cults.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the Christian traditions were all to ready to appropriate them and reinterpret in the light of the mint new religion of Constantine the Great that enforced Christianity upon the peoples by an imperial decree in 313, whereas the numbers of Christians started to rise from barely 2-3 mln throughout the 45-mln strong Empire to greater numbers, and in Egypt from 10% to 70% population respectively.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;People who got converted were usually either not educated in the magical techniques, they were not professional philosopher-magicians (an interesting deviation may be Cyprian the Magician, patron of Christian magick, when he got converted), but of rather lowly castes, nevertheless the reification of divine philosophies into a new religious “vehicle” was both a curse and a blessing, a curse because it destroyed the genuine traditions, a blessing because for those knowing how to read throughout it preserved extremely important essences.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;*As I have discovered, the “kharakteres” might have been the source of seals and symbols in Picatrix (Buqratis by Pseudo-Maslama Al-Majriti), for example, carried on into later traditions, and the genuine encoding was that of letters written as voces mysticae, acquiring a sacred meaning.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dosoo, Korshi and Preininger, Markéta. Papyri Copticae Magicae: Coptic&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Magical Texts, Volume 1: Formularies, Berlin, Boston: De Gruyter, 2024&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Isis, Osiris and Horus survived well into - at least - 9th century and they were co-worshiped with Jesus, Mary etc.** " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30979" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10897" RevisionGUID="5931cb0e-3f10-4253-a9d3-c4e0c03e8e9f" CreationDate="2024-01-25T05:08:02.003" UserId="10954" Text="I personaly don't think he violated Vrinda as per current violation defination. I believe he violated her per ancient defination by siting with her." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30981" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10897" RevisionGUID="5931cb0e-3f10-4253-a9d3-c4e0c03e8e9f" CreationDate="2024-01-25T05:08:02.003" UserId="10954" Text="Why did Vishnu violate Vrinda, to defeat Jalandhar?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30982" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10897" RevisionGUID="5931cb0e-3f10-4253-a9d3-c4e0c03e8e9f" CreationDate="2024-01-25T05:08:02.003" UserId="10954" Text="|hindu|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30983" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="6316" RevisionGUID="59771d93-a41b-455c-8bc6-6b04329c6dd8" CreationDate="2024-01-26T00:05:25.680" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30984" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10898" RevisionGUID="5445ec77-fc3b-4d44-a4ab-71519bbd1606" CreationDate="2024-01-26T07:39:06.620" UserId="10958" Text="Hera had once driven Dionysus to go mad. While he searched for a temple of Zeus in which to cure himself, he came upon a large marsh. He was unable in his maddened state to reason his way past it, but two donkeys came along and he rode one across the marsh. Grateful for the donkey's help, he gave it a voice with which to speak. Silenus, the foster father of Dionysus, thereafter rode the talking donkey on their travels. Dionysus is typically depicted riding a leopard, whereas Hephaestus is shown riding a donkey (see Poeticon Astronomicon, pp. 62-63)." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30986" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10899" RevisionGUID="a30f584c-da5b-42f1-911d-70fb4bd1bccd" CreationDate="2024-01-26T14:18:09.893" UserId="10954" Text="That's why you should not rely on English translations. There is a saying, why to read the English translations made by the foreigners when we have Indian languages. English language doesn't contain exact technical meaning for each and every Sanskrit /Hindi/Telugu word. English language cannot define the technicality of Hindi /Telugu/Sanskrit words and I will prove you that the r@pe you're accusing did not happen. It was said that, Vrinda's Pativrata should be broken. But Pativrata in Sanskrit is not same as Chastity or Modesty in English.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Now let us debunk this claim with proper Sanskrit slokas. The essence of this story is about the origin of Tulasi plant or Holy Basil plant.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;She married asura named (Jalandhar) and due to her Pativrata dharma, her husband has become invincible and started torturing the three realms. The only way to kill him was to destroy the Pativrata Dharma of Vrinda Devi.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here comes the problem, the English translators translated Pativrata (Pati + Vrata) as Chastity which is wrong.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is what is mentioned in Shiva Purana, Yuddha khanda, 22nd chapter, 50th sloka (Sanskrit )&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Parvati uvacha&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tainaiva darsitah pantha buddasta tvam hi&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Tatsatri pativratam dharmam brashtam kuru madagya&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Translation :-&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Parvati says to Vishnu “He showed us the way to kill him. The best way to teach him a lesson is by destroying the Pativrata dharma of his wife”.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;English translators, mistranslated Pativrata as Chastity or Modesty.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, How did Vishnu destroy pativrata dharma of Vrinda?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Shiva Purana, yuddha khanda 23rd chapter explains it.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;First Vishnu created an illusion to Vrinda that her husband (Jalandhar )was killed and later restored to life by him at the request of Vrinda. At that movement, the actual Jalandhar lost his power because Vrinda's pativrata shakti is not acting as an Armour to him and eventually killed by Shiva.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But Vrinda embraced the fake Jalandhar as her husband in illusion and started roaming with him in the forests for few days.Everything she experiencing that time was just illusion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Shiva Purana, Yuddha Khanda, 23rd chapter slokas 39–40&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;39th sloka in Sanskrit :-&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Atha prasan hridaya sa hi samajat ichaya&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Reme tad vanamadhyastha tadyukta bahuvasaran&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hindi Translation :-&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Vah(Vrinda ne) prasann chith se kaam ka uday hone par us van ke madhya me hi uske saat bahut dino tak Vihar karthi Rahi.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here prasann chith means happiness or blissful, Kaam ka means desire but in English they mistranslated kaam as lust.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Vihar = ghumna (hindi) = to roam or excursion in English&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, the exact English translation will be :-&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“Vrinda with the desire of feeling happiness or blissfulness, roamed with him in the forests for several days”.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;40th sloka :- In Sanskrit&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Kadachit suratasyamate dristva vishnum tameva hi&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Nirbhatsrya trodhasamyukta vrinda vachanambravit&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hindi Translation :-&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Yek baar vihaar ke anth (end of excursion) usko vishnu ke roop mein jaankar krodh se yukth hokar fatkarthi huyi vrinda yaha vachan boli.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Here the word Surata has been mistranslated as sexual intercousre in English. But in Hindi,Surata mean Raman.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Raman = vihar karna (to roam happily or excursion), man prasann karne ki prakriya (process of making mind happy), enjoy etc…&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But for the English authors happiness or pleasantness means SEX. 39th sloka clearly says she roamed with him in the forests.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, in 40th sloka surata + anth = vihar karna(excursion)+ anth (end).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the 40th sloka Suratasyamate = at the end of excursion.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, the English translation of 40th sloka becomes like this :-&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;“ Once after the end of excursion, she thought him to be Vishnu and she angrily says these words “.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the 41st and later slokas,Vrinda accused Vishnu for her husband's death and she immolated herself and reached Vaikunta “.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later, river Gandaki was made from her ashes and Tulasi plant (Holy Basil) was made from her hair.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So, where did r@pe or sex you're accusing happen? The actual Sanskrit word for the sexual intercourse is “Maithun”. In 39th and 40th slokas there is no word called Maithun.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The Sanskrit word for r@pe is “Balatkar “. Show me the word Balatkar in any sloka." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30988" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10900" RevisionGUID="3c5a6428-8f48-42fb-880b-409c73b9e4c9" CreationDate="2024-01-26T14:23:43.600" UserId="3373" Text="​Hi,&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most likely, you would probably need an interlinear bilingual translation with phonetization of the hieroglyphs. As far as I'm concerned, no such edition exists.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps the late **Theban** version &quot;**Pert em hru**&quot; will serve the purpose? I know it's Budge, and a lot of research was carried out since then, but why not? I guess it should be called &quot;The book of life for the dead to have a safe journey&quot;, very much like Orphic Golden Tablets. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Budge E. A. Wallis. 198AD. The Book of the Dead : The Papyrus of Ani in the British Museum : The Egyptian Text with Interlinear Transliteration and Translation a Running Translation Introduction Etc Dover ed. Gloucester MA: Peter Smith. , p. XXX, accessible here:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA; [Internet Archives][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![2]][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://archive.org/details/egyptianbookofde00erne_0/page/n31/mode/2up&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/2NL48.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30993" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5857" RevisionGUID="19ffcd8c-094b-4579-bf79-24139be7ac39" CreationDate="2024-01-28T10:08:06.017" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="30994" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10902" RevisionGUID="a8ac49d7-c930-45c4-9141-cd711be9dcbe" CreationDate="2024-01-31T08:33:37.643" UserId="2682" Text="Overview&#xD;&#xA;--------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A major ingredient—perhaps the prime one—for the foundation for this does in fact seem to be the (con)fusion of the Titans with the Gigantes. The earliest evidence for this that I’m finding is, as it so happens, in the Bible, in the 3rd century BC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This fusion or conflation is evinced somewhat more strongly in Roman mythographers, starting as early Virgil (1st century BC), who tend to mention the names of certain first-generation Titans—Coeus and Iapetus especially—as though these personages are, rather, Gigantes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even as the Roman Empire was increasingly Christianised, works of Greco-Roman mythology continued to hold pride of place as important scholarly education textbooks as well as a repository of source material for historiographical speculation. Euhemerised renditions of the ancient gods and heroes were integrated into the timeline as it was now understood to have flowed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, e.g., Saturn, the Roman version of the Titan Kronos, could continue to be envisioned as a historical figure in the cultural imagination, being said to have been a primordial Italian king, except now, rather than as a Titan-god, more in the mould of the Biblical giants interpreted as having dominated parts of the world in the days before and early on after Noah’s Flood.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most eager to make such connections, Movses Khorenats‘i (Moses of Chorene), while writing the *History of the Armenians*, in the 400s AD, equates Kronos with Nimrod, the son of Kush in Genesis 10 whom Christian tradition would come to ascribe as the main man in charge of building the Tower of Babel. In Movses’ account, this Kronos-Nimrod, going mainly by the name Bēl, is the Babylonian “king of the Titans” at the head of an army of giants with which he conquers the entire world. A parallel version of the story is related in the anonymous *Primary History* (traditionally attributed to the 7th-century Armenian bishop Sebeos), in which Bēl is himself explicitly referred to as both a giant and a Titan.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From Movses’ time down into the Late Middle Ages, evidence of the synonymy between “Titan” and “giant” continues to appear cursorily in Latin literature until we get to the Early Modern period, in which Edmund Spenser’s epic poem *The Faerie Queene* offers an abundance of detailed and unambiguous descriptions of the Titans, set within genuinely Greco-Roman myth, as superhumanly humongous and colossal entities, the earliest such that I have found (1590s AD).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The proliferation of mythical allusions in *The Faerie Queene* displays the breadth and depth of Spenser’s acquaintance with the corpus of Ancient Greek and Roman mythography. It makes it certain that when he casts so many of his villains as giants specifically *because* they are descended from Titans, it isn’t a choice made out of ignorance regarding the old myths. He necessarily interprets the Titans as having been conceptualised as massive beings in the ancient imagination. Either that and/or he is the merely following the long tradition of fusing Gigantes with Titans that began before the Christian era and carried on throughout it down into his own time, only now expressed in much higher resolution than we’ve so far been exposed to in extant literature. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Specific Examples&#xD;&#xA;-----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Bible Translation &amp; Interpretation**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By around the 200s BC, working out of Hellenistic Egypt, the translators of Hebrew Scriptures into Greek were using the terms “Titans” and “Gigantes” as though the two were basically interchangeable. *Emeq Rephaîm*, the “Valley of Rephaïm”, mentioned in 2 Samuel 5.18, 22, changes, in Greek, into the *koiláda tôn Titánon*, “Valley of the Titans”, while in 1 Chronicles 11.15, from a passage in which the same story is recounted, *Emeq Rephaîm* is instead rendered as *koiládi tôn gigánton*, “Valley of the Gigantes”. According to Jan Bremmer,&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; “the same alternation occurs in the textual tradition of Flavius Josephus’ rewriting of the passage” (in the *Antiquities of the Jews* 7.71). Bremmer goes on to say that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Greek version of *Judith* (ca. first century AD) lets the heroine&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sing in the hymn of praise after her victory: “nor did the sons of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Titans strike him (Holophernes) down, nor did tall giants set upon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him” (16.6) … and … the Greek version of *1 Enoch* 9.9 has: “the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; daughters of men brought forth from them sons, giants”, but the Gizeh&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fragment translates ‘giants’ with ‘Titans’…&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This trend carries on into the Middle Ages as, in their respective commentaries on the Apocalypse of John (a.k.a. the Book of Revelation), the Venerable Bede (writing in England c. 710-716 AD)&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; and Hugh of Saint-Cher (Hugo de Sancto Charo, in 1200s AD France),&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; each define the word Titan as meaning “a giant”.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Over the course of the last few centuries BC, while the Bible was finding its way from Hebrew into Greek, writers like Euhemerus, and Diodorus Siculus, were pioneering the practice of historicising the Titans and other deities into mortal earthly versions of the characters they appear as in the traditional Greco-Roman myths. At the beginning of the mediaeval period, Christian authors would employ this technique to splice the same mythology into Biblical events and chronology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus in the 500s AD, John Malalas uses material from Euhemerus’s *Sacred History* for his own expansion on Genesis 10, which lists Noah’s earliest descendants after the Flood. In Malalas (1.8), Kronos is described as coming from the tribe of Noah’s son Shem, and also as “a man who was of the race of the giants”,&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; from the Greek *gigantiaíos*. In the Latin translation of the same, he is *gigantaeae staturae*, “of gigantic stature”.&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;When, in the previous century, Movses Khorenats‘i equates Kronos with Nimrod, son of Kush (who in turn was a son of Ḥam, and grandson of Noah). This is presumably because, in the Bible, Nimrod seems to be credited with being the first great king and ruler after the Flood, and, going by the Ancient Greek translation, he was also *gígas epì tes ges*, “a giant upon the earth” (Genesis 10.8-9, &amp; 1 Chronicles 1.10). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Mostly Latin Literature**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Benjamin Garstad takes note of Diodorus Siculus’ narration, in the *Bibliotheka Historika* 5.71.3, of Zeus’ conquest of the Giants in a battle against them on Crete Island after his performance of a sacrifice to the Sun, the Sky and the Earth, whereupon the deities reveal their will to him, “and all who opposed them {*i.e. Zeus and his allies*} were cut down by the gods.” Commenting upon this, Garstad goes on to say&lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt; that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Comparable narratives, with similar elements (i.e. the sacrifice of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zeus… before an expedition, and some response promising victory), but&#xD;&#xA;&gt; consistently replacing Giants with Titans, are found in numerous Latin&#xD;&#xA;&gt; works, apparently stemming from an early commentary on the *Aratea* of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Germanicus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He adds that “At least one author considered the names ‘Titans’ and ‘Giants’ to be interchangeable”&lt;sup&gt;7&lt;/sup&gt; and cites the *Second Vatican Mythographer* 67, who states that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The fables tell us that Earth was angry at the gods who refused to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dwell upon her. For revenge, she created the Titans, also called&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Giants. They were armed with the tails of serpents.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Roman tradition, for the conflation of the Titanomachy with the Gigantomachy, the names of Coeus (father of Leto and Asteria, and grandfather of Apollo, Artemis, and Hekate) and Iapetus (the father of Atlas and Prometheus) become fairly prominent figures in lists of Zeus’s enemies in this context. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Virgil’s *Georgics* 1.276-286 (1st century BC) is the earliest culprit I can find in Roman literature for such a thing, in which:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [I]n monstrous labour Earth bore Coeus, and Iapetus and fierce&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Typhoeus, and the brethren who were banded to break down Heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thrice did they essay to pile Ossa on Pelion, and over Ossa to roll&#xD;&#xA;&gt; leafy Olympus; thrice, with his bolt, the Father dashed apart their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; up-piled mountains.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This seems to combine three different attacks against Zeus—spread apart by centuries (first, Coeus and Iapetus during the Titans’ War; then, millennia later, Poseidon’s skyscraper twin sons, the Aloadae, piling mountains atop one another to climb into heaven; and then the cosmic-sized Typhoeus nearly killing Zeus in a separate conflict)—into a triple-assault on the same occasion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Servius’ commentary on this passage says that “By Coeus, Typhoeus, and Iapetus, however, we understand all the giants.” And in his Commentary on Virgil’s *Georgics* 1.166, he claims that, according to Orpheus, Dionysus “was torn apart by the giants.” Every account of which I am aware, however, of the Orphic myth of Dionysus (i.e. Zagreus) being torn to pieces by semi-divine beings involves Titans, rather than the giants. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps taking its cue from Virgil, Hyginus’ *Preface* lists Coeus and Iapetus in its roll-call of Gigantes. Hyginus is rather notorious for confusing details in his mythography, so when he also adds Astraeus and Pallas to his Gigantes’ list, it’s difficult to ascertain whether they’re authentic Giant-names or merely more of the same sort of confusion. (In Hesiod’s *Theogony*, Coeus and Iapetus are two of the original twelve Titans while their nephews Astraeus and Pallas are second-generation Titans, being the sons of Crius, a brother of Coeus and Iapetus.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Conversely, in the previous section of the *Preface*, the Hundred-Handed Giants Briareus and Gyges [Gyes], and the [one-eyed giant] Cyclops Steropes, are enumerated among the Titans. (Theoi.com does note, however, that the text of the *Preface*, as it has come down to us, is corrupt.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later on, the *First Vatican Mythographer* 184 would say that “Latona was the daughter of Coeius [*Coeus*] the giant.” Then in the 1300s AD, the fire-breathing earthquake-monster Enceladus is mentioned together with Coeus in Boccaccio’s *Genealogy of the Gods of the Gentiles* 1.10, in which passage Jupiter goes to war against “the giant Titans, sons of Earth,” as Jon Solomon&lt;sup&gt;8&lt;/sup&gt; translates the Latin *Titanas gigantes, Terre filios*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***The Faerie Queene***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Published 1590 AD, Edmund Spenser describes a villain called Disdayne (Disdain) as being so tall he was “Like a huge Giant of the Titans’ race” in *The Faerie Queene* Book 2, Canto 7, Stanza 41. According to the relevant passage:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Disdayne he was called, and did disdayne  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; To be so cald, and who did him so call :  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sterne was his looke, and full of stomach vayne ;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; His portaunce terrible, and stature tall,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Far passing th’ hight of men terrestriall,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Like an huge Gyant of the Titans race ;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; That made him scorn all creatures great and small,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And with his pride all others powre deface…&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Book 3, Canto 1, Stanza 57 of the same poem describes Atlas as “huge”. Typhoeus is specifically named one of the Titans in Book 3, Canto 7, Stanzas 47-48, wherein he sires a Giantess called Argante and her twin brother Ollyphant, upon his own mother the Earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Book 5, Canto 1, Stanza 9, “in that great fight | Against the Titans” Jove (the Roman Zeus) uses a mighty sword named Chrysaor to quell “those Gyants” (published AD 1596). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Book 6, Canto 7, Mutabilitie (Mutability) is “a daughter by descent | Of those old Titans” (Stanza 2); herself, like Hecaté, a “Goddesse” and  a “Titanesse” (Stanzas 3-4, &amp; 10-11); as well as a “Giantesse” (Stanza 13). She was the daughter of Earth by Saturn’s elder brother Titan (Stanzas 26-27, &amp; 32). Mutabilitie’s back-story, upon the strength of which she challenges Jove’s rule over the universe here in *The Faerie Queene*, is based on the theogony in Euhemerus’ *Sacred History*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**19th Century Onwards**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as evidence in my findings goes, though, it seems that one might have to wait a few more centuries after Spenser, until 1914, before another explicit literary reference to enormous Titans. This is when Thomas Bulfinch, in a new edition of a book of his first published in 1855,&lt;sup&gt;9&lt;/sup&gt; tell us that “Prometheus was one of the Titans, a gigantic race, who inhabited the earth before the creation of man.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The earliest solid examples I am able to cite of the use of the word “titanic” as meaning “vast in size” would come from *At the Mountains of Madness* by HP Lovecraft, in 1936, wherein several such references are made to mostly geographical features, such as mountains and rocks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Trying Again from Another Angle&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Vast Mountain, Expansive Ocean***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All of that notwithstanding, I would posit a different basis for gargantuan Titans in ancient mythography as perceptible when it comes to at least two of these personages, namely Oceanus and Atlas. In the case of the latter, it’s very likely that when Edmund Spenser calls him “huge” (see above), he could be directly referencing Book 4 of Ovid’s *Metamorphoses*, in which the Gorgon-slaying hero Perseus uses Medusa’s head to turn Atlas into the vast mountain-range bearing his name, and “which covers almost the entire swath of northwestern Africa, from what is now the northern half of Tunisia in the east, across northern Algeria, to sweep over almost all of Morocco in the west.”&lt;sup&gt;10&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Atlas Mountain Range][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This version of Atlas’ fate apparently goes back as far as the 5th-century dithyrambic poet Polyeidus, while Ovid (in the year 8 AD) supplies us with the notion (if it wasn’t already Polyeidus’s idea to begin with) that Mt Atlas is as big as it is because “There was so much of him that Atlas became a mountain” and, in A.D. Melville’s 1986 translation (of Book 4, Lines 657-662), the Titan’s &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beard and hair were changed to forests, shoulders were cliffs, hands&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ridges; where his head had lately been, the soaring summit rose; his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bones were turned to stone. Then each part grew beyond all measure (so&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the gods ordained) and on his shoulders rested the whole vault of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; heaven with all the innumerable stars.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Previous to the transformation (according to Lines 631-633), “This man, Atlas Iapetionides [son of Iapetus], surpassed all others in immensity of body-size.” (Cf. Brookes More’s 1922 translation: “huge Atlas” was “vaster than the race of man”; &amp;, per Melville: “Atlas surpassed all men in giant size”. More translates the Latin *maximus Atlas* in Book 6, Line 172 as “huge Atlas” while Melville renders it as “That great giant, Atlas”, which would seem to be justifiable based on the Titan’s superlative description back in Book 4.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hence we have a 1st-century AD account of a massively gigantic Titan, seemingly well clear of the context of the Gigantomachy and the confusion of its participants with Titans. So it would be quite fair to read Lovecraft’s “titanic” *Mountains of Madness* as a legitimate allusion to the Titan who was metamorphosed into Mt Atlas. (Unless one were to argue that perhaps Ovid does see his super-tall “Iapetionides” simply as one of the Gigantes, on the grounds that his contemporary Virgil, with Hyginus shortly thereafter, seems to count Atlas’s father Iapetus as a Giant rather than a Titan.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The presentation in Hesiod’s *Theogony* of Oceanus’s geographical structure in the world and in relation to his daughter Styx might be somewhat convoluted for envisioning the cosmic river-god’s shape with certainty, but at least as early Homer’s *Iliad* it is fairly certain that this shape is circular. Going by the *Shield of Heracles* (also anciently attributed to Hesiod) it’s reasonably clear that this circle of water goes round the entire (flat, disc-shaped) Earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This means that the circumference of Oceanus, eldest of the Titans, curved *Ouroboros*-like around his mother “huge Gaia” (as the *Theogony* aptly calls her), is larger even than that of the Earth herself. As a consequence, when we want to refer to a body of water that’s even more expansive than the sea, so large that it surrounds entire continents, we call it the *ocean*, from the first Titan’s name. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Unhelpfulness of the Visual Arts for a Sense of Scale**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is true that ancient artwork does not provide visual backup for the idea of extremely large Titans in comparison to the Olympians, but then again we run into the same challenge when it comes to depictions of the Gigantes. Artistic portrayals of the Gigantomachy, whether in vase painting or sculpture, are rather stubbornly diligent in rendering the Giants pretty much the same size as the gods. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We can be certain, at least when it comes to Tityus, Typhoeus, and the twin Aloadae, that our understanding of the term “Giant” as “a tremendously humongous creature” is not mistaken. With regards to Tityus, Book 11 of Homer’s *Odyssey* invites its reader to visualize a man so vast that, lying down dead and supine in the Underworld, his form covers the space of nine *plethra*, which Theoi.com calculates to be the equivalent of approx. 270 metres, or about 900 feet. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But when Phintias (c. 500s BC) paints him onto an Attic red-figure vase (now in the Musée du Louvre in Paris),&lt;sup&gt;11&lt;/sup&gt; this is what Tityus looks like in relation to one of the Titans and a pair of Olympian deities:  &#xD;&#xA;[![Tityos Leto Louvre][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;The Giant in the middle, making to abduct the Titaness Leto, with the Titaness’s twin children, Apollo to the left, and Artemis to the right, moving in to stop him.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Earlier in the same book of the *Odyssey*, prodigious twin boys called the Aloadae are said to have grown by nine inches every month so that by the time they were only nine years they should each have measured, by my own estimation, 18 feet (roughly 6m) in width and 54 feet (approx. 16m) in height. Artemis encounters these Giants as well, but when the Barclay Painter (about a century after Phintias) pictures them on a [bell krater]( https://www.theoi.com/Gallery/L10.1.html) (now in the Antikenmuseum Basel), they are no bigger than the goddess, nor even than her deer (nor yet even than the little tree in the scene)!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Typhoeus, whom Apollodorus describes as taller than any mountain (and practically seeming to graze his head against the stars upon trying to stand up straight in *Bibliotheka* 1.6.3), really isn’t impressively bigger than Zeus in this Chalcidian black-figure hydria (Staatliche Antikensammlungen, Munich)&lt;sup&gt;12&lt;/sup&gt; from c. 540 BC:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Zeus vs Typhoeus][3]][3]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*To the left: Zeus; to the right: winged Typhoeus, with serpentine lower half*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So when Oceanus appears, sporting his serpentine fish-tail, looking not that much bigger than Hephaestus and Eileithyia in a [*dinos* painting by Sophilos](https://www.theoi.com/image/O1.1Okeanos.jpg) (500s BC, British Museum, London), it need not be a hindrance to the idea of him as a merman of cosmic proportions encircling the disc of Earth, in much the same way that Jörmungandr, the cosmic snake submerged in the sea in Norse mythology, is of such extensive size that he bites his own tail while his body lies curled into a circle around the entire world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***As silly as it all may seem…***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Per the matter of difficulty in imagining Zeus siring Apollo and Artemis on a Titaness who is “gigantic in stature in a way that” he is not, the issue simply flips around when we consider that Tityus is attempting to abduct Leto in order to enjoy her attentions in the same manner than Zeus did. So we end up with the same sort of problem if the Giant were as tall as an 80-storey building (to convert the dimensions in the *Odyssey*) and she were, say, much closer to normal human size. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While Tityus does not seem to have achieved his goal in relation to Leto, Pindar tells us that through his daughter Europa, Tityus became the grandfather of the Argonaut Euphemus. This has always made me wonder if Euphemus himself is also supposed to be a giant, and upon whom did Tityus (with a body measuring 9 *plethra*) beget Europa? Similar questions might be posed about Orion, who according to Homer was the only man taller and more handsome than the Aloadae, and these twins, as we’ve seen, might have towered over some modern skyscrapers. So when certain writers credit Orion with having had several children, one might again be curious as to the nature of the women bearing these offspring.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Neither the *Theogony* nor subsequent early mythography seems to be squeamish about bizarre imagery no matter how silly it might come off. Taking dramatic size differences between Zeus and his Titan wives for granted seems no more ludicrous to me than trying to picture what it looks like for the Earth to give birth to the Sky, especially if it’s correct to visualise a disc-shaped Earth and a(n upside-down) bowl-shaped Sky-dome. And when Hesiod says that this same Sky mated with Earth before eventually being castrated by Kronos, the mechanics of how all this was achieved requires quite some imagination indeed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is the case moreso when the poet announces that the Titaness Tethys gave birth to all the rivers of the world. Incidentally, this final consideration does cause me to envisage a woman colossal enough to contain and gestate within her belly the *Theogony*'s 3000 streams (several of them surely gigantic, as many rivers certainly are) before granting their birth unto them, whatever that’s supposed to look like.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Notes**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. On pp. 93-94 of his book *Greek Religion and Culture, the Bible and the Ancient Near East* (Brill, 2008, Leiden • Boston).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. See Book 2 of his *Explanatio Apocalypsis*, wherein he comments on Revelation 13.18.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. In the *Glossa ordinaria*. The *Glossae Scripturae Sacrae-electronicae (Gloss-e)* website tags the relevant portion thereof as “83a. Postilla Aser pinguis in Apocalypsi”, attributing it to “Hugo de Sancto Caro”.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;4. According to p. 6 of ***The Chronicle of John Malalas: A Translation*** by Elizabeth Jeffreys, Michael Jeffreys and Roger Scott with Brian Croke, Jenny Ferber, Simon Franklin, Alan James, Douglas Kelly, Ann Moffatt, Ann Nixon (The Australian Association for Byzantine Studies: Byzantina Australiensia 4, 1986, Melbourne).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;5. From the “Anonymi Chronologica,” p. 17 of **Ioannis Malalae *Chronographia***, from the Corpus Scriptorum Historiae Byzantinae, a revised edition by B.G. Niebuhr, published by Weber, 1831, Bonn.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;6. On p. 171 of his thesis *The* Titanomachy *of Thallus and Its Reception by the Latin Church Fathers*, University of St Andrews, March 2000.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;7. *Ibid.*, p. 171, Footnote 207&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;8. Pp. 94-95 of Giovanni Boccaccio: *Genealogy of the Pagan Gods*, Vol. 1 • Books I-V, Edited and Translated by Jon Solomon, The I Tatti Renaissance Library, Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA, &amp; London, England, 2011&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;9. On p. 13 of *The Age of Fable* or *Beauties of Mythology*, New Edition, Revised and Enlarged, Vol  1: Stories of Gods and Heroes, Review of Reviews Company, New York&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;10. From [my Answer to Another Question](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/10865/2682) on this website.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;11. Image sourced from Jastrow. 2007. *Tityos Leto Louvre G42.jpg*, Wikimedia Commons, viewed 31 January 2024, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tityos_Leto_Louvre_G42.jpg&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;12. Image sourced from User:Bibi Saint-Pol. 2007. *Zeus Typhon Staatliche Antikensammlungen 596.jpg*, Wikimedia Commons, viewed 31 January 2024, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Zeus_Typhon_Staatliche_Antikensammlungen_596.jpg&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/jcHmy.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/xEfCc.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MBZzz.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30996" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10902" RevisionGUID="758bb2bb-0bca-4481-bfa1-d4e4dbfe4ce6" CreationDate="2024-01-31T20:52:20.750" UserId="2682" Comment="fixed grammar, &amp; corrected a detail" Text="Overview&#xD;&#xA;--------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A major ingredient—perhaps the prime one—for the foundation for this does in fact seem to be the (con)fusion of the Titans with the Gigantes. The earliest evidence for this that I’m finding is, as it so happens, in the Bible, in the 3rd century BC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This fusion or conflation is evinced somewhat more strongly in Roman mythographers, starting as early Virgil (1st century BC), who tend to mention the names of certain first-generation Titans—Coeus and Iapetus especially—as though these personages are, rather, Gigantes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even as the Roman Empire was increasingly Christianised, works of Greco-Roman mythology continued to hold pride of place as important scholarly education textbooks as well as a repository of source material for historiographical speculation. Euhemerised renditions of the ancient gods and heroes were integrated into the timeline as it was now understood to have flowed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, e.g., Saturn, the Roman version of the Titan Kronos, could continue to be envisioned as a historical figure in the cultural imagination, being said to have been a primordial Italian king, except now, rather than as a Titan-god, more in the mould of the Biblical giants interpreted as having dominated parts of the world in the days before and early on after Noah’s Flood.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most eager to make such connections, Movses Khorenats‘i (Moses of Chorene), while writing the *History of the Armenians*, in the 400s AD, equates Kronos with Nimrod, the son of Kush in Genesis 10 whom Christian tradition would come to ascribe as the main man in charge of building the Tower of Babel. In Movses’ account, this Kronos-Nimrod, going mainly by the name Bēl, is the Babylonian “king of the Titans” at the head of an army of giants with which he conquers the entire world. A parallel version of the story is related in the anonymous *Primary History* (traditionally attributed to the 7th-century Armenian bishop Sebeos), in which Bēl is himself explicitly referred to as both a giant and a Titan.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From Movses’ time down into the Late Middle Ages, evidence of the synonymy between “Titan” and “giant” continues to appear cursorily in Latin literature until we get to the Early Modern period, in which Edmund Spenser’s epic poem *The Faerie Queene* offers an abundance of detailed and unambiguous descriptions of the Titans, set within genuinely Greco-Roman myth, as superhumanly humongous and colossal entities, the earliest such that I have found (1590s AD).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The proliferation of mythical allusions in *The Faerie Queene* displays the breadth and depth of Spenser’s acquaintance with the corpus of Ancient Greek and Roman mythography. It makes it certain that when he casts so many of his villains as giants specifically *because* they are descended from Titans, it isn’t a choice made out of ignorance regarding the old myths. He necessarily interprets the Titans as having been conceptualised as massive beings in the ancient imagination. Either that and/or he is the merely following the long tradition of fusing Gigantes with Titans that began before the Christian era and carried on throughout it down into his own time, only now expressed in much higher resolution than we’ve so far been exposed to in extant literature. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Specific Examples&#xD;&#xA;-----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Bible Translation &amp; Interpretation**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By around the 200s BC, working out of Hellenistic Egypt, the translators of Hebrew Scriptures into Greek were using the terms “Titans” and “Gigantes” as though the two were basically interchangeable. *Emeq Rephaîm*, the “Valley of Rephaïm”, mentioned in 2 Samuel 5.18, 22, changes, in Greek, into the *koiláda tôn Titánon*, “Valley of the Titans”, while in 1 Chronicles 11.15, from a passage in which the same story is recounted, *Emeq Rephaîm* is instead rendered as *koiládi tôn gigánton*, “Valley of the Gigantes”. According to Jan Bremmer,&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; “the same alternation occurs in the textual tradition of Flavius Josephus’ rewriting of the passage” (in the *Antiquities of the Jews* 7.71). Bremmer goes on to say that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Greek version of *Judith* (ca. first century AD) lets the heroine&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sing in the hymn of praise after her victory: “nor did the sons of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Titans strike him (Holophernes) down, nor did tall giants set upon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him” (16.6) … and … the Greek version of *1 Enoch* 9.9 has: “the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; daughters of men brought forth from them sons, giants”, but the Gizeh&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fragment translates ‘giants’ with ‘Titans’…&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This trend carries on into the Middle Ages as, in their respective commentaries on the Apocalypse of John (a.k.a. the Book of Revelation), the Venerable Bede (writing in England c. 710-716 AD)&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; and Hugh of Saint-Cher (Hugo de Sancto Charo, in 1200s AD France),&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; each define the word Titan as meaning “a giant”.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Over the course of the last few centuries BC, while the Bible was finding its way from Hebrew into Greek, writers like Euhemerus, and Diodorus Siculus, were pioneering the practice of historicising the Titans and other deities into mortal earthly versions of the characters they appear as in the traditional Greco-Roman myths. At the beginning of the mediaeval period, Christian authors would employ this technique to splice the same mythology into Biblical events and chronology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus in the 500s AD, John Malalas uses material from Euhemerus’s *Sacred History* for his own expansion on Genesis 10, which lists Noah’s earliest descendants after the Flood. In Malalas (1.8), Kronos is described as coming from the tribe of Noah’s son Shem, and also as “a man who was of the race of the giants”,&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; from the Greek *gigantiaíos*. In the Latin translation of the same, he is *gigantaeae staturae*, “of gigantic stature”.&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the previous century, Movses Khorenats‘i equates Kronos with Nimrod son of Kush (who in turn was a son of Ḥam, and grandson of Noah). This is presumably because, in the Bible, Nimrod seems to be credited with being the first great king and ruler after the Flood, and, going by the Ancient Greek translation, he was also *gígas epì tes ges*, “a giant upon the earth” (Genesis 10.8-9, &amp; 1 Chronicles 1.10). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Mostly Latin Literature**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Benjamin Garstad takes note of Diodorus Siculus’ narration, in the *Bibliotheka Historika* 5.71.3, of Zeus’ conquest of the Giants in a battle against them on Crete Island after his performance of a sacrifice to the Sun, the Sky and the Earth, whereupon the deities revealed their will to him, “and all who opposed them {*i.e. Zeus and his allies*} were cut down by the gods.” Commenting upon this, Garstad goes on to say&lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt; that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Comparable narratives, with similar elements (i.e. the sacrifice of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zeus… before an expedition, and some response promising victory), but&#xD;&#xA;&gt; consistently replacing Giants with Titans, are found in numerous Latin&#xD;&#xA;&gt; works, apparently stemming from an early commentary on the *Aratea* of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Germanicus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He adds that “At least one author considered the names ‘Titans’ and ‘Giants’ to be interchangeable”&lt;sup&gt;7&lt;/sup&gt; and cites the *Second Vatican Mythographer* 67, wherein:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The fables tell us that Earth was angry at the gods who refused to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dwell upon her. For revenge, she created the Titans, also called&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Giants. They were armed with the tails of serpents.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Roman tradition, for the conflation of the Titanomachy with the Gigantomachy, the names of Coeus (father of Leto and Asteria, and grandfather of Apollo, Artemis, and Hekate) and Iapetus (the father of Atlas and Prometheus) become fairly prominent figures in lists of Zeus’s enemies in this context. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Virgil’s *Georgics* 1.276-286 (1st century BC) is the earliest culprit I can find in Roman literature for such a thing, in which:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [I]n monstrous labour Earth bore Coeus, and Iapetus and fierce&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Typhoeus, and the brethren who were banded to break down Heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thrice did they essay to pile Ossa on Pelion, and over Ossa to roll&#xD;&#xA;&gt; leafy Olympus; thrice, with his bolt, the Father dashed apart their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; up-piled mountains.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This seems to combine three different attacks against Zeus—spread apart by centuries (first, Coeus and Iapetus during the Titans’ War; then, millennia later, Poseidon’s skyscraper twin sons, the Aloadae, piling mountains atop one another to climb into heaven; and then the cosmic-sized Typhoeus nearly killing Zeus in a separate conflict)—into a triple-assault on the same occasion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Servius’ commentary on this passage says that “By Coeus, Typhoeus, and Iapetus, however, we understand all the giants.” And in his Commentary on Virgil’s *Georgics* 1.166, he claims that, according to Orpheus, Dionysus “was torn apart by the giants.” Every account of which I am aware, however, of the Orphic myth of Dionysus (i.e. Zagreus) being torn to pieces by semi-divine beings involves Titans, rather than the giants. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps taking its cue from Virgil, Hyginus’ *Preface* lists Coeus and Iapetus in its roll-call of Gigantes. Hyginus is rather notorious for confusing the details within his mythography, so when he also adds Astraeus and Pallas to his Gigantes’ list, it’s difficult to ascertain whether they’re authentic Giant-names or merely more of the same sort of confusion. (In Hesiod’s *Theogony*, Coeus and Iapetus are two of the original twelve Titans while their nephews Astraeus and Pallas are second-generation Titans, being the sons of Crius, a brother of Coeus and Iapetus.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Conversely, in the previous section of the *Preface*, the Hundred-Handed Giants Briareus and Gyges [Gyes], and the [one-eyed giant] Cyclops Steropes, are enumerated among the Titans. (Theoi.com does note, however, that the text of the *Preface*, as it has come down to us, is corrupt.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later on, the *First Vatican Mythographer* 184 would say that “Latona was the daughter of Coeius [*Coeus*] the giant.” Then in the 1300s AD, the fire-breathing earthquake-monster Enceladus is mentioned together with Coeus in Boccaccio’s *Genealogy of the Gods of the Gentiles* 1.10, in which passage Jupiter goes to war against “the giant Titans, sons of Earth,” as Jon Solomon&lt;sup&gt;8&lt;/sup&gt; translates the Latin *Titanas gigantes, Terre filios*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***The Faerie Queene***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Published 1590 AD, Edmund Spenser describes a villain called Disdayne (Disdain) as being so tall he was “Like a huge Giant of the Titans’ race” in *The Faerie Queene* Book 2, Canto 7, Stanza 41. According to the relevant passage:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Disdayne he was called, and did disdayne  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; To be so cald, and who did him so call :  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sterne was his looke, and full of stomach vayne ;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; His portaunce terrible, and stature tall,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Far passing th’ hight of men terrestriall,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Like an huge Gyant of the Titans race ;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; That made him scorn all creatures great and small,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And with his pride all others powre deface…&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Book 3, Canto 1, Stanza 57 of the same poem describes Atlas as “huge”. Typhoeus is specifically named one of the Titans in Book 3, Canto 7, Stanzas 47-48, wherein he sires a Giantess called Argante and her twin brother Ollyphant, upon his own mother the Earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Book 5, Canto 1, Stanza 9, “in that great fight | Against the Titans” Jove (the Roman Zeus) uses a mighty sword named Chrysaor to quell “those Gyants” (published AD 1596). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Book 6, Canto 7, Mutabilitie (Mutability) is “a daughter by descent | Of those old Titans” (Stanza 2); herself, like Hecaté, a “Goddesse” and  a “Titanesse” (Stanzas 3-4, &amp; 10-11); as well as a “Giantesse” (Stanza 13). She was the daughter of Earth by Saturn’s elder brother Titan (Stanzas 26-27, &amp; 32). Mutabilitie’s back-story, upon the strength of which she challenges Jove’s rule over the universe here in *The Faerie Queene*, is based on the theogony in Euhemerus’ *Sacred History*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**19th Century Onwards**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as evidence in my findings goes, though, it seems that one might have to wait a few more centuries after Spenser, until 1914, before another explicit literary reference to enormous Titans. This is when Thomas Bulfinch, in a new edition of a book of his first published in 1855,&lt;sup&gt;9&lt;/sup&gt; tell us that “Prometheus was one of the Titans, a gigantic race, who inhabited the earth before the creation of man.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The earliest solid examples I am able to cite of the use of the word “titanic” as meaning “vast in size” would come from *At the Mountains of Madness* by HP Lovecraft, in 1936, wherein several such references are made to mostly geographical features, such as mountains and rocks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Trying Again from Another Angle&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Vast Mountain, Expansive Ocean***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All of that notwithstanding, I would posit a different basis for gargantuan Titans in ancient mythography as perceptible when it comes to at least two of these personages, namely Oceanus and Atlas. In the case of the latter, it’s very likely that when Edmund Spenser calls him “huge” (see above), he could be directly referencing Book 4 of Ovid’s *Metamorphoses*, in which the Gorgon-slaying hero Perseus uses Medusa’s head to turn Atlas into the vast mountain-range bearing his name, and “which covers almost the entire swath of northwestern Africa, from what is now the northern half of Tunisia in the east, across northern Algeria, to sweep over almost all of Morocco in the west.”&lt;sup&gt;10&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Atlas Mountain Range][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This version of Atlas’ fate apparently goes back as far as the 5th-century dithyrambic poet Polyeidus, while Ovid (in the year 8 AD) supplies us with the notion (if it wasn’t already Polyeidus’s idea to begin with) that Mt Atlas is as big as it is because “There was so much of him that Atlas became a mountain” and, in A.D. Melville’s 1986 translation (of Book 4, Lines 657-662), the Titan’s &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beard and hair were changed to forests, shoulders were cliffs, hands&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ridges; where his head had lately been, the soaring summit rose; his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bones were turned to stone. Then each part grew beyond all measure (so&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the gods ordained) and on his shoulders rested the whole vault of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; heaven with all the innumerable stars.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Previous to the transformation (according to Lines 631-633), “This man, Atlas Iapetionides [son of Iapetus], surpassed all others in immensity of body-size.” (Cf. Brookes More’s 1922 translation: “huge Atlas” was “vaster than the race of man”; &amp;, per Melville: “Atlas surpassed all men in giant size”. More translates the Latin *maximus Atlas* in Book 6, Line 172 as “huge Atlas” while Melville renders it as “That great giant, Atlas”, which would seem to be justifiable based on the Titan’s superlative description back in Book 4.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hence we have a 1st-century AD account of a massively gigantic Titan, seemingly well clear of the context of the Gigantomachy and the confusion of its participants with Titans. So it would be quite fair to read Lovecraft’s “titanic” *Mountains of Madness* as a legitimate allusion to the Titan who was metamorphosed into Mt Atlas. (Unless one were to argue that perhaps Ovid does see his super-tall “Iapetionides” simply as one of the Gigantes, on the grounds that his contemporaries Virgil and Hyginus seem to count Atlas’s father Iapetus as a Giant rather than a Titan.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The presentation in Hesiod’s *Theogony* of Oceanus’s geographical structure in the world and in relation to his daughter Styx might be somewhat convoluted for envisioning the cosmic river-god’s shape with certainty, but at least as early Homer’s *Iliad* it is fairly certain that this shape is circular. Going by the *Shield of Heracles* (also anciently attributed to Hesiod) it’s reasonably clear that this circle of water goes round the entire (flat, disc-shaped) Earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This means that the circumference of Oceanus, eldest of the Titans, curved *Ouroboros*-like around his mother “huge Gaia” (as the *Theogony* aptly calls her), is larger even than that of the Earth herself. As a consequence, when we want to refer to a body of water that’s even more expansive than the sea, so large that it surrounds entire continents, we call it the *ocean*, from the first Titan’s name. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Unhelpfulness of the Visual Arts for a Sense of Scale**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is true that ancient artwork does not provide visual backup for the idea of extremely large Titans in comparison to the Olympians, but then again we run into the same challenge when it comes to depictions of the Gigantes. Artistic portrayals of the Gigantomachy, whether in vase painting or sculpture, are rather stubbornly diligent in rendering the Giants pretty much the same size as the gods. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We can be certain, at least when it comes to Tityus, Typhoeus, and the twin Aloadae, that our understanding of the term “Giant” as “a tremendously humongous creature” is not mistaken. With regards to Tityus, Book 11 of Homer’s *Odyssey* invites its reader to visualize a man so vast that, lying down dead and supine in the Underworld, his form covers the space of nine *plethra*, which Theoi.com calculates to be the equivalent of approx. 270 metres, or about 900 feet. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But when Phintias (c. 500s BC) paints him onto an Attic red-figure vase (now in the Musée du Louvre in Paris),&lt;sup&gt;11&lt;/sup&gt; this is what Tityus looks like in relation to one of the Titans and a pair of Olympian deities:  &#xD;&#xA;[![Tityos Leto Louvre][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;The Giant in the middle, making to abduct the Titaness Leto, with the Titaness’s twin children, Apollo to the left, and Artemis to the right, moving in to stop him.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Earlier in the same book of the *Odyssey*, prodigious twin boys called the Aloadae are said to have grown by nine inches every month so that, by the time they were only nine years old, they should each have measured, by my own estimation, 18 feet (roughly 6m) in width and 54 feet (approx. 16m) in height. Artemis encounters these Giants as well, but when the Barclay Painter (about a century before Phintias) pictures them on a [bell krater]( https://www.theoi.com/Gallery/L10.1.html) (now in the Antikenmuseum Basel), they are no bigger than the goddess, nor even than her deer (nor yet even than the little tree in the scene)!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Typhoeus, whom Apollodorus describes as taller than any mountain (and practically seeming to graze his head against the stars upon trying to stand up straight in *Bibliotheka* 1.6.3), really isn’t impressively bigger than Zeus in this Chalcidian black-figure hydria (Staatliche Antikensammlungen, Munich)&lt;sup&gt;12&lt;/sup&gt; from c. 540 BC:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Zeus vs Typhoeus][3]][3]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*To the left: Zeus; to the right: winged Typhoeus, with serpentine lower half*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So when Oceanus appears, sporting his serpentine fish-tail, looking not that much bigger than Hephaestus and Eileithyia in a [*dinos* painting by Sophilos](https://www.theoi.com/image/O1.1Okeanos.jpg) (500s BC, British Museum, London), it need not be a hindrance to the idea of him as a merman of cosmic proportions encircling the disc of Earth, in much the same way that Jörmungandr, the cosmic snake submerged in the sea in Norse mythology, is of such extensive size that he bites his own tail while his body lies curled into a circle around the entire world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***As silly as it all may seem…***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Per the matter of difficulty in imagining Zeus siring Apollo and Artemis on a Titaness who is “gigantic in stature in a way that” he is not, the issue simply flips around when we consider that Tityus is attempting to abduct Leto in order to enjoy her attentions in the same manner than Zeus did. So we end up with the same sort of problem if the Giant were as tall as an 80-storey building (to convert the dimensions in the *Odyssey*) and she were, say, much closer to normal human size. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While Tityus does not seem to have achieved his goal in relation to Leto, Pindar tells us that, through his daughter Europa, Tityus became the grandfather of the Argonaut Euphemus. This has always made me wonder if Euphemus himself is also supposed to be a giant, and upon whom did Tityus (with a body measuring 9 *plethra*) beget Europa? Similar questions might be posed about Orion, who according to Homer was the only man taller and more handsome than the Aloadae, and these twins, as we’ve seen, might have towered over some modern skyscrapers. So when certain writers credit Orion with having had several children, one might again be curious as to the nature of the women bearing these offspring.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Neither the *Theogony* nor subsequent early mythography seems to be particularly squeamish about bizarre imagery no matter how silly it might come off. Taking dramatic size differences between Zeus and his Titan wives for granted seems no more ludicrous to me than trying to picture the Earth giving birth to the Sky, especially if it’s correct to visualise a disc-shaped Earth and a(n upside-down) bowl-shaped Sky-dome. And when Hesiod says that this same Sky mated with Earth before eventually being castrated by Kronos, the mechanics of how all this was achieved requires quite some imagination indeed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is the case moreso when the poet announces that the Titaness Tethys gave birth to all the rivers of the world. Incidentally, this final consideration does cause me to envisage a woman colossal enough to contain and gestate within her belly the *Theogony*'s 3000 streams (several of them surely gigantic, as many rivers certainly are) before bringing them forth from therein, whatever that’s supposed to look like.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Notes**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. On pp. 93-94 of his book *Greek Religion and Culture, the Bible and the Ancient Near East* (Brill, 2008, Leiden • Boston).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. See Book 2 of his *Explanatio Apocalypsis*, wherein he comments on Revelation 13.18.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. In the *Glossa ordinaria*. The *Glossae Scripturae Sacrae-electronicae (Gloss-e)* website tags the relevant portion thereof as “83a. Postilla Aser pinguis in Apocalypsi”, attributing it to “Hugo de Sancto Caro”.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;4. According to p. 6 of ***The Chronicle of John Malalas: A Translation*** by Elizabeth Jeffreys, Michael Jeffreys and Roger Scott with Brian Croke, Jenny Ferber, Simon Franklin, Alan James, Douglas Kelly, Ann Moffatt, Ann Nixon (The Australian Association for Byzantine Studies: Byzantina Australiensia 4, 1986, Melbourne).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;5. From the “Anonymi Chronologica,” p. 17 of **Ioannis Malalae *Chronographia***, from the Corpus Scriptorum Historiae Byzantinae, a revised edition by B.G. Niebuhr, published by Weber, 1831, Bonn.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;6. On p. 171 of his thesis *The* Titanomachy *of Thallus and Its Reception by the Latin Church Fathers*, University of St Andrews, March 2000.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;7. *Ibid.*, p. 171, Footnote 207&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;8. Pp. 94-95 of Giovanni Boccaccio: *Genealogy of the Pagan Gods*, Vol. 1 • Books I-V, Edited and Translated by Jon Solomon, The I Tatti Renaissance Library, Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA, &amp; London, England, 2011&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;9. On p. 13 of *The Age of Fable* or *Beauties of Mythology*, New Edition, Revised and Enlarged, Vol  1: Stories of Gods and Heroes, Review of Reviews Company, New York&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;10. From [my Answer to Another Question](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/10865/2682) on this website.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;11. Image sourced from Jastrow. 2007. *Tityos Leto Louvre G42.jpg*, Wikimedia Commons, viewed 31 January 2024, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tityos_Leto_Louvre_G42.jpg&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;12. Image sourced from User:Bibi Saint-Pol. 2007. *Zeus Typhon Staatliche Antikensammlungen 596.jpg*, Wikimedia Commons, viewed 31 January 2024, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Zeus_Typhon_Staatliche_Antikensammlungen_596.jpg&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/jcHmy.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/xEfCc.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MBZzz.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30997" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10902" RevisionGUID="a1a434cb-edd0-42d6-a006-2e5a5ca2ae63" CreationDate="2024-02-01T21:53:23.423" UserId="2682" Comment="tweaked formatting, fixed grammar, &amp; adjusted some details" Text="Overview&#xD;&#xA;--------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A major ingredient—perhaps the prime one—for the foundation for this does in fact seem to be the (con)fusion of the Titans with the Gigantes. The earliest evidence for this that I’m finding is, as it so happens, in the Bible, in the 3rd century BC.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This fusion or conflation is evinced somewhat more strongly in Roman mythographers, starting as early Virgil (1st century BC), who tend to mention the names of certain first-generation Titans—Coeus and Iapetus especially—as though these personages are, rather, Gigantes.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Even as the Roman Empire was increasingly Christianised, works of Greco-Roman mythology continued to hold pride of place as important scholarly education textbooks as well as a repository of source material for historiographical speculation. Euhemerised renditions of the ancient gods and heroes were integrated into the timeline as it was now understood to have flowed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus, e.g., Saturn, the Roman version of the Titan Kronos, could continue to be envisioned as a historical figure in the cultural imagination, being said to have been a primordial Italian king, except now, rather than as a Titan-god, more in the mould of the Biblical giants interpreted as having dominated parts of the world in the days before and early on after Noah’s Flood.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most eager to make such connections, Movses Khorenats‘i (Moses of Chorene), while writing the *History of the Armenians*, in the 400s AD, equates Kronos with Nimrod, the son of Kush in Genesis 10 whom Christian tradition would come to ascribe as the main man in charge of building the Tower of Babel. In Movses’ account, this Kronos-Nimrod, going mainly by the name Bēl, is the Babylonian “king of the Titans” at the head of an army of giants with which he conquers the entire world. A parallel version of the story is related in the anonymous *Primary History* (traditionally attributed to the 7th-century Armenian bishop Sebeos), in which Bēl is himself explicitly referred to as both a giant and a Titan.  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;From Movses’ time down into the Late Middle Ages, evidence of the synonymy between “Titan” and “giant” continues to appear cursorily in Latin literature until we get to the Early Modern period, in which Edmund Spenser’s epic poem *The Faerie Queene* offers an abundance of detailed and unambiguous descriptions of the Titans, set within genuinely Greco-Roman myth, as superhumanly humongous and colossal entities, the earliest such that I have found (1590s AD).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The proliferation of mythical allusions in *The Faerie Queene* displays the breadth and depth of Spenser’s acquaintance with the corpus of Ancient Greek and Roman mythography. It makes it certain that when he casts so many of his villains as giants specifically *because* they are descended from Titans, it isn’t a choice made out of ignorance regarding the old myths. He necessarily interprets the Titans as having been conceptualised as massive beings in the ancient imagination. Either that and/or he is the merely following the long tradition of fusing Gigantes with Titans that began before the Christian era and carried on throughout it down into his own time, only now expressed in much higher resolution than we’ve so far been exposed to in extant literature. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Specific Examples&#xD;&#xA;-----------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Bible Translation &amp; Interpretation**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;By around the 200s BC, working out of Hellenistic Egypt, the translators of Hebrew Scriptures into Greek were using the terms “Titans” and “Gigantes” as though the two were basically interchangeable. *Emeq Rephaîm*, the “Valley of Rephaïm”, mentioned in 2 Samuel 5.18, 22, changes, in Greek, into the *koiláda tôn Titánon*, “Valley of the Titans”, while in 1 Chronicles 11.15, from a passage in which the same story is recounted, *Emeq Rephaîm* is instead rendered as *koiládi tôn gigánton*, “Valley of the Gigantes”. According to Jan Bremmer,&lt;sup&gt;1&lt;/sup&gt; “the same alternation occurs in the textual tradition of Flavius Josephus’ rewriting of the passage” (in the *Antiquities of the Jews* 7.71). Bremmer goes on to say that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The Greek version of *Judith* (ca. first century AD) lets the heroine&#xD;&#xA;&gt; sing in the hymn of praise after her victory: “nor did the sons of the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Titans strike him (Holophernes) down, nor did tall giants set upon&#xD;&#xA;&gt; him” (16.6) … and … the Greek version of *1 Enoch* 9.9 has: “the&#xD;&#xA;&gt; daughters of men brought forth from them sons, giants”, but the Gizeh&#xD;&#xA;&gt; fragment translates ‘giants’ with ‘Titans’…&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This trend carries on into the Middle Ages as, in their respective commentaries on the Apocalypse of John (a.k.a. the Book of Revelation), the Venerable Bede (writing in England c. 710-716 AD)&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; and Hugh of Saint-Cher (Hugo de Sancto Charo, in 1200s AD France),&lt;sup&gt;3&lt;/sup&gt; each define the word Titan as meaning “a giant”.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Over the course of the last few centuries BC, while the Bible was finding its way from Hebrew into Greek, writers like Euhemerus, and Diodorus Siculus, were pioneering the practice of historicising the Titans and other deities into mortal earthly versions of the characters they appear as in the traditional Greco-Roman myths. At the beginning of the mediaeval period, Christian authors would employ this technique to splice the same mythology into Biblical events and chronology. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Thus in the 500s AD, John Malalas uses material from Euhemerus’s *Sacred History* for his own expansion on Genesis 10, which lists Noah’s earliest descendants after the Flood. In Malalas (1.8), Kronos is described as coming from the tribe of Noah’s son Shem, and also as “a man who was of the race of the giants”,&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt; from the Greek *gigantiaíos*. In the Latin translation of the same, he is *gigantaeae staturae*, “of gigantic stature”.&lt;sup&gt;5&lt;/sup&gt; &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the previous century, Movses Khorenats‘i equates Kronos with Nimrod son of Kush (who in turn was a son of Ḥam, and grandson of Noah). This is presumably because, in the Bible, Nimrod seems to be credited with being the first great king and ruler after the Flood, and, going by the Ancient Greek translation, he was also *gígas epì tes ges*, “a giant upon the earth” (Genesis 10.8-9, &amp; 1 Chronicles 1.10). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Mostly Latin Literature**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Benjamin Garstad takes note of Diodorus Siculus’ narration, in the *Bibliotheka Historika* 5.71.3, of Zeus’ conquest of the Giants in a battle against them on Crete Island after his performance of a sacrifice to the Sun, the Sky and the Earth, whereupon the deities revealed their will to him, “and all who opposed them {*i.e. Zeus and his allies*} were cut down by the gods.” Commenting upon this, Garstad goes on to say&lt;sup&gt;6&lt;/sup&gt; that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Comparable narratives, with similar elements (i.e. the sacrifice of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zeus… before an expedition, and some response promising victory), but&#xD;&#xA;&gt; consistently replacing Giants with Titans, are found in numerous Latin&#xD;&#xA;&gt; works, apparently stemming from an early commentary on the *Aratea* of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Germanicus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;He adds that “At least one author considered the names ‘Titans’ and ‘Giants’ to be interchangeable”&lt;sup&gt;7&lt;/sup&gt; and cites the *Second Vatican Mythographer* 67, wherein:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The fables tell us that Earth was angry at the gods who refused to&#xD;&#xA;&gt; dwell upon her. For revenge, she created the Titans, also called&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Giants. They were armed with the tails of serpents.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In the Roman tradition, for the conflation of the Titanomachy with the Gigantomachy, the names of Coeus (father of Leto and Asteria, and grandfather of Apollo, Artemis, and Hekate) and Iapetus (the father of Atlas and Prometheus) become fairly prominent figures in lists of Zeus’s enemies in this context. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Virgil’s *Georgics* 1.276-286 (1st century BC) is the earliest culprit I can find in Roman literature for such a thing, in which:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; [I]n monstrous labour Earth bore Coeus, and Iapetus and fierce&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Typhoeus, and the brethren who were banded to break down Heaven.&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Thrice did they essay to pile Ossa on Pelion, and over Ossa to roll&#xD;&#xA;&gt; leafy Olympus; thrice, with his bolt, the Father dashed apart their&#xD;&#xA;&gt; up-piled mountains.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This seems to combine three different attacks against Zeus—spread apart by centuries (first, Coeus and Iapetus during the Titans’ War; then, millennia later, Poseidon’s skyscraper twin sons, the Aloadae, piling mountains atop one another to climb into heaven; and then the cosmic-sized Typhoeus nearly killing Zeus in a separate conflict)—into a triple-assault on the same occasion. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Servius’ commentary on this passage says that “By Coeus, Typhoeus, and Iapetus, however, we understand all the giants.” And in his Commentary on Virgil’s *Georgics* 1.166, he claims that, according to Orpheus, Dionysus “was torn apart by the giants.” Every account of which I am aware, however, of the Orphic myth of Dionysus (i.e. Zagreus) being torn to pieces by semi-divine beings involves Titans, rather than the giants. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Perhaps taking its cue from Virgil, Hyginus’ *Preface* lists Coeus and Iapetus in its roll-call of Gigantes. Hyginus is rather notorious for mixing up the details within his mythography, so when he also adds Astraeus and Pallas to his Gigantes’ list, it’s difficult to ascertain whether they’re authentic Giant-names or merely more of the same sort of confusion. (In Hesiod’s *Theogony*, Coeus and Iapetus are two of the original twelve Titans while their nephews Astraeus and Pallas are second-generation Titans, being the sons of Crius, a brother of Coeus and Iapetus.) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Conversely, in the previous section of the *Preface*, the Hundred-Handed Giants Briareus and Gyges [Gyes], and the [one-eyed giant] Cyclops Steropes, are enumerated among the Titans. (Theoi.com does note, however, that the text of the *Preface*, as it has come down to us, is corrupt.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Later on, the *First Vatican Mythographer* 184 would say that “Latona was the daughter of Coeius [*Coeus*] the giant.” Then in the 1300s AD, the fire-breathing earthquake-monster Enceladus is mentioned together with Coeus in Boccaccio’s *Genealogy of the Gods of the Gentiles* 1.10, in which passage Jupiter (the Roman Zeus) goes to war against “the giant Titans, sons of Earth,” as Jon Solomon&lt;sup&gt;8&lt;/sup&gt; translates the Latin *Titanas gigantes, Terre filios*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***The Faerie Queene***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Published 1590 AD, Edmund Spenser describes a villain called Disdayne (Disdain) as being so tall he was “Like a huge Giant of the Titans’ race” in *The Faerie Queene* Book 2, Canto 7, Stanza 41. According to the relevant passage:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Disdayne he was called, and did disdayne  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; To be so cald, and who did him so call :  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Sterne was his looke, and full of stomach vayne ;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; His portaunce terrible, and stature tall,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Far passing th’ hight of men terrestriall,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; Like an huge Gyant of the Titans race ;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; That made him scorn all creatures great and small,  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; And with his pride all others powre deface…&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Book 3, Canto 1, Stanza 57 of the same poem describes Atlas as “huge”. Typhoeus is specifically named one of the Titans in Book 3, Canto 7, Stanzas 47-48, wherein he sires a Giantess called Argante and her twin brother Ollyphant, upon his own mother the Earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Book 5, Canto 1, Stanza 9, “in that great fight | Against the Titans” Jove (Jupiter) uses a mighty sword named Chrysaor to quell “those Gyants” (published AD 1596). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In Book 6, Canto 7, Mutabilitie (Mutability) is “a daughter by descent | Of those old Titans” (Stanza 2); herself, like Hecaté, a “Goddesse” and  a “Titanesse” (Stanzas 3-4, &amp; 10-11); as well as a “Giantesse” (Stanza 13). She is the daughter of Earth by Saturn’s elder brother Titan (Stanzas 26-27, &amp; 32). Mutabilitie’s back-story, upon the strength of which she challenges Jove’s rule over the universe here in *The Faerie Queene*, is based on the theogony in Euhemerus’ *Sacred History*.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**19th Century Onwards**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As far as evidence in my findings goes, though, it seems that one might have to wait a few more centuries after Spenser, until the decades surrounding 1914, before another explicit literary reference to enormous Titans. This is when Thomas Bulfinch, in a new edition of a book of his first published in 1855,&lt;sup&gt;9&lt;/sup&gt; tell us that “Prometheus was one of the Titans, a gigantic race, who inhabited the earth before the creation of man.”&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The earliest solid examples I am able to cite of the use of the word “titanic” as meaning “vast in size” would come from *At the Mountains of Madness* by HP Lovecraft, in 1936, wherein several such references are made to mostly geographical features, such as mountains and rocks.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Trying Again from Another Angle&#xD;&#xA;-------------------------------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***Vast Mountain, Expansive Ocean***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;All of that notwithstanding, I would posit a different basis for gargantuan Titans in ancient mythography when it comes to at least two of these personages, namely Oceanus and Atlas. In the case of the latter, it’s very likely that when Edmund Spenser calls him “huge” (see above), he could be directly referencing Book 4 of Ovid’s *Metamorphoses*, in which the Gorgon-slaying hero Perseus uses Medusa’s head to turn Atlas into the vast mountain-range bearing his name, and “which covers almost the entire swath of northwestern Africa, from what is now the northern half of Tunisia in the east, across northern Algeria, to sweep over almost all of Morocco in the west.”&lt;sup&gt;10&lt;/sup&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Atlas Mountain Range][1]][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This version of Atlas’ fate apparently goes back as far as the 5th-century BC dithyrambic poet Polyeidus, while Ovid (in the year 8 AD) supplies us with the notion (if it wasn’t already Polyeidus’s idea to begin with) that Mt Atlas is as big as it is because “There was so much of him that Atlas became a mountain” and, in A.D. Melville’s 1986 translation (of Book 4, Lines 657-662), the Titan’s &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; beard and hair were changed to forests, shoulders were cliffs, hands&#xD;&#xA;&gt; ridges; where his head had lately been, the soaring summit rose; his&#xD;&#xA;&gt; bones were turned to stone. Then each part grew beyond all measure (so&#xD;&#xA;&gt; the gods ordained) and on his shoulders rested the whole vault of&#xD;&#xA;&gt; heaven with all the innumerable stars.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Previous to the transformation (according to Lines 631-633), “This man, Atlas Iapetionides [*son of Iapetus*], surpassed all others in immensity of body-size.” (Cf. Brookes More’s 1922 translation: “huge Atlas” was “vaster than the race of man”; &amp;, per Melville: “Atlas surpassed all men in giant size”. More translates the Latin *maximus Atlas* in Book 6, Line 172 as “huge Atlas” while Melville renders it as “That great giant, Atlas”, which would seem to be justifiable based on the Titan’s description in superlatives back in Book 4.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Hence we have a 1st-century AD account of a massively gigantic Titan, seemingly well clear of the context of the Gigantomachy and the confusion of its participants with Titans. So it would be quite fair to read Lovecraft’s “titanic” *Mountains of Madness* as a legitimate allusion to the Titan who was metamorphosed into Mt Atlas. (Unless one were to argue that perhaps Ovid does see his super-tall “Iapetionides” simply as one of the Gigantes, on the grounds that his contemporaries Virgil and Hyginus seem to count Atlas’s father Iapetus as a Giant rather than a Titan.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The presentation in Hesiod’s *Theogony* of Oceanus’s geographical structure in the world and in relation to his daughter Styx might be somewhat convoluted for envisioning the cosmic river-god’s shape with certainty, but at least as early Homer’s *Iliad* it is fairly certain that this shape is circular. Going by the *Shield of Heracles* (also anciently attributed to Hesiod) it’s reasonably clear that this circle of water goes round the entire (flat, disc-shaped) Earth.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This means that the circumference of Oceanus, eldest of the Titans, curved *Ouroboros*-like around his mother “huge Gaia” (as the *Theogony* aptly calls her), is greater even than that of the Earth herself. As a consequence, when we want to refer to a body of water that’s even more expansive than the sea, so large that it surrounds entire continents, we call it the *ocean*, from the first Titan’s name. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**The Unhelpfulness of the Visual Arts for a Sense of Scale**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is true that ancient artwork does not provide visual backup for the idea of extremely large Titans in comparison to the Olympians, but then again we run into the same challenge when it comes to depictions of the Gigantes. Artistic portrayals of the Gigantomachy, whether in vase painting or sculpture, are rather stubbornly diligent in rendering the Giants pretty much the same size as the gods. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;We can be certain, at least when it comes to Tityus, Typhoeus, and the twin Aloadae, that our understanding of the term “Giant” as “a tremendously humongous creature” is not mistaken. With regards to Tityus, Book 11 of Homer’s *Odyssey* invites its reader to visualise a man so vast that, lying down dead and supine in the Underworld, his form covers the space of nine *plethra*, which Theoi.com calculates to be the equivalent of approx. 270 metres, or about 900 feet. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But when Phintias (500s BC) paints him onto an Attic red-figure vase (now in the Musée du Louvre in Paris),&lt;sup&gt;11&lt;/sup&gt; this is what Tityus looks like in relation to one of the Titans and a pair of Olympian deities:  &#xD;&#xA;[![Tityos Leto Louvre][2]][2]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;The Giant in the middle, making to abduct the Titaness Leto, with the Titaness’s twin children, Apollo to the left, and Artemis to the right, moving in to stop him.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Earlier in the same book of the *Odyssey*, prodigious twin boys called the Aloadae are said to have grown by nine inches every month so that, by the time they were only nine years old, they should each have measured, by my own estimation, 18 feet (roughly 6m) in width and 54 feet (approx. 16m) in height. Artemis encounters these Giants as well, but when the Barclay Painter (about a century before Phintias) pictures them on a [bell krater]( https://www.theoi.com/Gallery/L10.1.html) (now in the Antikenmuseum Basel), they are no bigger than the goddess, nor even than her deer (nor yet even than the little tree in the scene)!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Typhoeus, whom Apollodorus describes as taller than any mountain (and practically seeming to graze his head against the stars upon trying to stand up straight in *Bibliotheka* 1.6.3), really isn’t impressively bigger than Zeus in this Chalcidian black-figure hydria (Staatliche Antikensammlungen, Munich)&lt;sup&gt;12&lt;/sup&gt; from c. 540 BC:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;[![Zeus vs Typhoeus][3]][3]  &#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;*Zeus, to the left, brandishes his thunderbolt at Typhoeus, who, with his serpentine lower half on display, spreads his wings to the right of the image.*&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;So when Oceanus appears, sporting his serpentine fish-tail, looking not that much bigger than Hephaestus and Eileithyia in a [*dinos* painting by Sophilos](https://www.theoi.com/image/O1.1Okeanos.jpg) (500s BC, British Museum, London), it need not be a hindrance to the idea of him as a merman of cosmic proportions encircling the disc of Earth, in much the same way that Jörmungandr, the cosmic snake submerged in the sea in Norse mythology, is of such extensive size that he bites his own tail while his body lies curled into a circle around the entire world.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;***As silly as it all may seem…***&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Per the concern of imagining Zeus siring Apollo and Artemis on a Titaness who is “gigantic in stature in a way that” he is not, the question simply flips around when we consider that Tityus is attempting to abduct Leto in order to enjoy her attentions in the same manner than Zeus did. So we end up with the same sort of problem if the Giant were as tall as an 80-storey building (to convert the dimensions in the *Odyssey*) and she were much closer to, say, normal human size. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;While Tityus does not seem to have achieved his goal in relation to Leto, Pindar tells us that, through his daughter Europa, Tityus became the grandfather of the Argonaut Euphemus. This has always made me wonder if Euphemus himself is also supposed to be a giant, and upon whom did Tityus (with a body measuring 9 *plethra*) beget Europa? Similar questions might be posed about Orion, who according to Homer was the only man taller and more handsome than the Aloadae, and these twins, as we’ve seen, might have towered over some modern skyscrapers. So when certain writers credit Orion with having had several children, one might again be curious as to the nature of the women bearing these offspring.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Neither the *Theogony* nor subsequent early mythography seems to be particularly squeamish about bizarre imagery no matter how silly it might come off. Taking dramatic size differences between Zeus and his Titan wives for granted seems no more ludicrous to me than trying to picture the Earth giving birth to the Sky, especially if it’s correct to visualise a disc-shaped Earth and a(n upside-down) bowl-shaped Sky-dome. And when Hesiod says that this same Sky mated with Earth before eventually being castrated by Kronos, the mechanics of how all this was achieved require quite some imagination indeed. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is the case moreso when the poet announces that the Titaness Tethys gave birth to all the rivers of the world. Incidentally, this final consideration does cause me to envisage a woman colossal enough to contain and gestate within her belly the *Theogony*'s 3000 streams (several of them surely gigantic, as many rivers certainly are) before bringing them forth from therein, whatever that process is supposed to look like.   &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----------&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**Notes**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;1. On pp. 93-94 of his book *Greek Religion and Culture, the Bible and the Ancient Near East* (Brill, 2008, Leiden • Boston).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;2. See Book 2 of his *Explanatio Apocalypsis*, wherein he comments on Revelation 13.18.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;3. In the *Glossa ordinaria*. The *Glossae Scripturae Sacrae-electronicae (Gloss-e)* website tags the relevant portion thereof as “83a. Postilla Aser pinguis in Apocalypsi”, attributing it to “Hugo de Sancto Caro”.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;4. According to p. 6 of ***The Chronicle of John Malalas: A Translation*** by Elizabeth Jeffreys, Michael Jeffreys and Roger Scott with Brian Croke, Jenny Ferber, Simon Franklin, Alan James, Douglas Kelly, Ann Moffatt, Ann Nixon (The Australian Association for Byzantine Studies: Byzantina Australiensia 4, 1986, Melbourne).&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;5. From the “Anonymi Chronologica,” p. 17 of **Ioannis Malalae *Chronographia***, from the Corpus Scriptorum Historiae Byzantinae, a revised edition by B.G. Niebuhr, published by Weber, 1831, Bonn.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;6. On p. 171 of his thesis *The* Titanomachy *of Thallus and Its Reception by the Latin Church Fathers*, University of St Andrews, March 2000.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;7. *Ibid.*, p. 171, Footnote 207&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;8. Pp. 94-95 of Giovanni Boccaccio: *Genealogy of the Pagan Gods*, Vol. 1 • Books I-V, Edited and Translated by Jon Solomon, The I Tatti Renaissance Library, Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA, &amp; London, England, 2011&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;9. On p. 13 of *The Age of Fable* or *Beauties of Mythology*, New Edition, Revised and Enlarged, Vol  1: Stories of Gods and Heroes, Review of Reviews Company, New York&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;10. From [my Answer to Another Question](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/10865/2682) on this website.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;11. Image sourced from Jastrow. 2007. *Tityos Leto Louvre G42.jpg*, Wikimedia Commons, viewed 31 January 2024, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tityos_Leto_Louvre_G42.jpg&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&lt;sub&gt;12. Image sourced from User:Bibi Saint-Pol. 2007. *Zeus Typhon Staatliche Antikensammlungen 596.jpg*, Wikimedia Commons, viewed 31 January 2024, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Zeus_Typhon_Staatliche_Antikensammlungen_596.jpg&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/jcHmy.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/xEfCc.jpg&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MBZzz.jpg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="30999" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="3114" RevisionGUID="1168a52f-fd82-41be-9bf5-61a4e2bbdfd3" CreationDate="2024-02-03T11:09:11.117" UserId="-1" />
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  <row Id="31003" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10903" RevisionGUID="fbcb46b2-e06f-4d1f-a396-ea327ab99a10" CreationDate="2024-02-04T06:55:53.867" UserId="10971" Text="|folklore|origins|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31004" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="4660" RevisionGUID="c779acf7-6186-4353-bc9f-d60ab829ceda" CreationDate="2024-02-05T00:53:14.107" UserId="1241" Comment="added 3 characters in body" Text="**What are the special powers of a unicorn's horn?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Many stories of unicorns refer to the magical properties of their horns, a claim first made by a Greek physician named [Ctesias][1] nearly 2,000 years ago. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The first mention of the therapeutic properties of unicorn’s horn is thought to have been by Ctesias, a Greek physician from Cnidus, who flourished in the fifth century BC. He believed the unicorn was an Indian wild ass that had a horn growing from its forehead. Drinking cups made from this horn could neutralise poison and afford protection against convulsions and epilepsy. In the middle ages it was used to cure plague, fevers and bites from serpents and mad dogs. It was even said that poisoned wounds could be cured merely by holding a piece of the horn close to them. Surely we cannot fail to be impressed when we read in ‘Doctors and Doctors’ by Graham Everitt that the unicorn was: “ … perfectly conscious of the sanitary virtues which resided in its nasal protruberance, and would dip its horn in the water to purify and sweeten it ere it would drink.” - [The Use of Unicorn Horn in Medicine][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unicorn are mentioned in the *Revelations of Catherine Emmerich*:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Unicorns still exist and herd together. I know of a piece of the&#xD;&#xA;horn of one of these animals which is for sick beasts what blessed&#xD;&#xA;objects are for men.&quot; - [Prophecies of Anne Catherine Emmerich 5][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And what about Harry Potter's unicorn?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Harry Potter's world, the unicorn is a magical horse whose single horn is used in potions and whose blood can revive someone who is &quot;an inch from death.&quot; Ancient Greek and Roman scholars also believed that crushed unicorn horn could cure many illnesses – although the unicorns they imagined were not just stark white, but also red and black. The myth of the unicorn resurfaced in European medieval tales, which stated that drinking from the horn would protect from poison. - [The Real Roots of 7 Magical Beasts From Harry Potter][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The power of the unicorn resides in its' horn!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the book Mythical Monsters by Charles Gould, a 6th century merchant/historian is quoted about the power of the unicorn which he had learned about on a trip to Ethiopia. He wrote, “It is impossible for this ferocious beast to be taken alive; and that all its strength lies in its horn. When it finds itself pursued and in danger of capture, it throws itself from a precipice, and turns so aptly in falling, that it receives all the shock upon the horn, and so escapes safe and sound.” - [What is the Power of a Unicorn’s Horn?][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ctesias&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.pharmaceutical-journal.com/news-and-analysis/features/the-use-of-unicorn-horn-in-medicine/20013625.article&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://propheciesii.blogspot.ca/2005/10/prophecies-of-anne-catherine-emmerich_04.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.livescience.com/11196-real-roots-7-magical-beasts-harry-potter.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://cultofunicorn.com/what-is-the-power-of-a-unicorns-horn/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31005" PostHistoryTypeId="8" PostId="4660" RevisionGUID="4c3fae7c-4e36-478c-af09-f88f73642e7c" CreationDate="2024-02-05T00:59:45.997" UserId="1241" Comment="Rollback to [de075789-f34e-47c1-bad6-e14323152475]" Text="**What are the special powers of a unicorn's horn?**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Many stories of unicorns refer to the magical properties of their horns, a claim first made by a Greek physician named [Ctesias][1] nearly 2,000 years ago. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The first mention of the therapeutic properties of unicorn’s horn is thought to have been by Ctesias, a Greek physician from Cnidus, who flourished in the fifth century BC. He believed the unicorn was an Indian wild ass that had a horn growing from its forehead. Drinking cups made from this horn could neutralise poison and afford protection against convulsions and epilepsy. In the middle ages it was used to cure plague, fevers and bites from serpents and mad dogs. It was even said that poisoned wounds could be cured merely by holding a piece of the horn close to them. Surely we cannot fail to be impressed when we read in ‘Doctors and Doctors’ by Graham Everitt that the unicorn was: “ … perfectly conscious of the sanitary virtues which resided in its nasal protruberance, and would dip its horn in the water to purify and sweeten it ere it would drink.” - [The Use of Unicorn Horn in Medicine][2]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unicorn are mentioned in the Prophecies of Catherine Emmerich.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;Unicorns still exist and herd together. I know of a piece of the&#xD;&#xA;horn of one of these animals which is for sick beasts what blessed&#xD;&#xA;objects are for men.&quot; - [Prophecies of Anne Catherine Emmerich 5][3]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And what about Harry Potter's unicorn?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Harry Potter's world, the unicorn is a magical horse whose single horn is used in potions and whose blood can revive someone who is &quot;an inch from death.&quot; Ancient Greek and Roman scholars also believed that crushed unicorn horn could cure many illnesses – although the unicorns they imagined were not just stark white, but also red and black. The myth of the unicorn resurfaced in European medieval tales, which stated that drinking from the horn would protect from poison. - [The Real Roots of 7 Magical Beasts From Harry Potter][4]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The power of the unicorn resides in its' horn!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In the book Mythical Monsters by Charles Gould, a 6th century merchant/historian is quoted about the power of the unicorn which he had learned about on a trip to Ethiopia. He wrote, “It is impossible for this ferocious beast to be taken alive; and that all its strength lies in its horn. When it finds itself pursued and in danger of capture, it throws itself from a precipice, and turns so aptly in falling, that it receives all the shock upon the horn, and so escapes safe and sound.” - [What is the Power of a Unicorn’s Horn?][5]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ctesias&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://www.pharmaceutical-journal.com/news-and-analysis/features/the-use-of-unicorn-horn-in-medicine/20013625.article&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: http://propheciesii.blogspot.ca/2005/10/prophecies-of-anne-catherine-emmerich_04.html&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www.livescience.com/11196-real-roots-7-magical-beasts-harry-potter.html&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: http://cultofunicorn.com/what-is-the-power-of-a-unicorns-horn/" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31006" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10904" RevisionGUID="d06f9cde-43ff-401e-922b-7814acf4e936" CreationDate="2024-02-05T01:52:12.403" UserId="10974" Text="Yea my Estonian grandmother read me a short story about this from a book when I was young, from what I remember it was about an impoverished young girl who’s father was lost at sea, her hand in marriage was promised by her mother to a butcher, but she refused to marry him because of his hideousness. The mother made a stew that would cause the daughter to become blind, so that there would be no reason not to marry the butcher. The daughter refused it, smashing the pipkin on the floor. In a rage, the mother threw embers into her daughters eyes, blinding her anyway. When the daughters sight returned, she fled the house and lived in the forest, or far far away or something. I remember this because I still have some drawings that I made of the pipkin and the young girl from this tale from when I was growing up" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31008" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10903" RevisionGUID="694870e9-cc5d-4247-be6f-453c31f29acd" CreationDate="2024-02-05T07:56:37.287" UserId="10971" Comment="added 244 characters in body" Text="I’ve been hearing a little chat about a ‘one-day blinding stew’ which purportedly causes temporary blindness.  Details seem predictably hard to come by although I’ve heard rumours (verbally, can’t cite a source) that such preparations have been known in Europe for centuries, possibly based on Euphorbia paralias and/or certain types of mushrooms.  Does anyone know of any references to such a thing, whether legendary or factual?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Edit: part of the background to this is that Euphorbia is starting to be found here (NZ) which is why it was mentioned by a friend of Polish descent who said that ‘Sea Spurge’ was known in Polish(?) folklore for causing temporary blindness." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31009" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="10791" RevisionGUID="6a82ceb9-fd9c-470b-9dc4-8adbcc3b1dbf" CreationDate="2024-02-08T17:06:15.870" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="31010" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10905" RevisionGUID="59418c9c-11d5-4a87-815c-6594923be87a" CreationDate="2024-02-10T20:29:59.490" UserId="5404" Text="If you go up the family tree (as much as you can with varying parentages), most mythological figures will have an ancestor that is divine.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;One of the only ones that comes to mind, as a hero who didn't have divine lineage would be **Diomedes** (Son of Tydeus).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;At first glance, I would have maybe suspected someone like **Odysseus** would also have been &quot;fully&quot; mortal, however, his mother **Anticlea**, was the daughter of **Autolyus**&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **The Odyssey 11.85**  the daughter of Autolycus, great-hearted Anticlea&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;who in turn is often described as the son of **Hermes**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **Bibliotheca 1.9.16** Autolycus, son of Hermes;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31012" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10906" RevisionGUID="fb441aed-bf41-4e9c-b05e-0f127de83df5" CreationDate="2024-02-11T18:21:45.533" UserId="10985" Text="at the Frobenius Institute in Frankfurt am Main there you&#xD;&#xA;will have access the Nachlass Server:&#xD;&#xA;https://www.frobenius-institut.de/sammlungen/nachlaesse&#xD;&#xA;there you will find further material by Hertha von Dechend.&#xD;&#xA;With the best wishes&#xD;&#xA;Axel Klaudius " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31014" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="5709" RevisionGUID="cd151aca-4ff2-4356-a416-37437459c311" CreationDate="2024-02-18T02:08:56.090" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="31015" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="10379" RevisionGUID="a3771f1d-b35a-42c7-80e5-60a77b3f0d0b" CreationDate="2024-02-18T04:04:20.620" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="31016" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10907" RevisionGUID="e121c5b1-f000-4919-8cc4-8ed3b953984b" CreationDate="2024-02-22T22:33:23.220" UserId="11001" Text="I found this cryptic Sumerian proverb looking for ancient barley references: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;                    &quot;The cemuc barley is reserved for the necromancer.&quot;  &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is an unrelated note that follows explaining how barley was used as commodity money in ancient Mesopotamia, not really relevant to necromancy. The closest I came to any definition of the word &quot;cemuc&quot; was to find a waterfall named &quot;Cemuc&quot; in Guatemala,but suspect that word might be Mayan. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My online search for botanical articles and cemuc barley yielded nothing. It could be a typo.  Does anyone know what cemuc barley is, and why i t would be reserved for necromancy? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31018" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10907" RevisionGUID="e121c5b1-f000-4919-8cc4-8ed3b953984b" CreationDate="2024-02-22T22:33:23.220" UserId="11001" Text="What is &quot;cemuc barley&quot; referred to in a Sumerian proverb, and how is it related to necromancy?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31019" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10907" RevisionGUID="e121c5b1-f000-4919-8cc4-8ed3b953984b" CreationDate="2024-02-22T22:33:23.220" UserId="11001" Text="|mesopotamia|plants|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31020" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10907" RevisionGUID="fa185a12-95ba-4aaf-bef7-c1260852da10" CreationDate="2024-02-23T18:38:53.483" UserId="53" Comment="Removed software formatting" Text="I found this cryptic Sumerian proverb looking for ancient barley references: &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &quot;The cemuc barley is reserved for the necromancer.&quot;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;There is an unrelated note that follows explaining how barley was used as commodity money in ancient Mesopotamia, not really relevant to necromancy. The closest I came to any definition of the word &quot;cemuc&quot; was to find a waterfall named &quot;Cemuc&quot; in Guatemala,but suspect that word might be Mayan. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;My online search for botanical articles and cemuc barley yielded nothing. It could be a typo.  Does anyone know what cemuc barley is, and why it would be reserved for necromancy? " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31021" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10908" RevisionGUID="87e5680f-0fb0-48b8-a86d-d794b1aa9113" CreationDate="2024-02-23T19:45:59.180" UserId="398" Text="The C in cemuc is how the [ETCSL](https://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/proverbs/t.6.1.03.html) transcribes the letter that is more often transcribed as SH or Š, so you'll see *cemuc* spelled with these letters instead (i.e *šemuš* or *shemush*).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What it exactly is I don't think we really know. It's a type of barley, but which doesn't seem clear, or too important.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, it was used in magical rituals, especially in the creation of a [zisurrû](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zisurr%C3%BB):&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Zisurrû, meaning “magic circle drawn with flour,” and inscribed ZÌ-SUR-RA-a, was an ancient Mesopotamian means of delineating, purifying and protecting from evil by the enclosing of a ritual space in a circle of flour. It involved ritual drawings with a variety of powdered cereals to counter different threats and is accompanied by the gloss: SAG.BA SAG.BA, Akkadian: māmīt māmīt, the curse from a broken oath, in The Exorcists Manual, where it refers to a specific ritual on two tablets the first of which is extant.  &#xD;&#xA;&gt;  &#xD;&#xA;&gt; The circle is rationalized in commentaries as representing certain protective deities, LUGAL.GIR.RA and Meslamtae’a according to one. In other rituals a circle might be painted in whitewash or dark wash on either side of a doorway for apotropaic purposes. **The choice of flour was crucial to the purpose of the ritual, with šemuš-flour reserved (níĝ-gig) for repelling ghosts, wheat-flour for rituals invoking personal gods and šenuḫa-barley to encircle beds, presumably to counter disease-carrying demons.**" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31024" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10909" RevisionGUID="119150e4-528d-4fd6-b57c-6c93afa3e168" CreationDate="2024-02-25T12:18:37.943" UserId="11006" Text="Dante is using Odysseus freely as a metaphor for the Greek Tradition in Canto 26. It is meant to illustrate the intellectual/rational hubris, when detached from a larger spiritual and embedding frame of the Heavens. This is why Odysseus drowns as he sees mount Purgatory. His denial of the transcendent blocks it by nature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And Dante largely related to this impetus of rationality-alone hubris. Which is why, he's almost falling down into the little valley of fires in circle 8." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31026" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="5622" RevisionGUID="5f43ec16-4de3-424c-8576-380f57f051f1" CreationDate="2024-02-25T15:26:21.537" UserId="1317" Comment="Removed duplicated line from quotation " Text="For one thing, Dante never read Homer.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Like most medieval Christians, Dante did not have direct access to the original Greek texts. Instead, they would've learnt of ancient Greek mythology through the works of later Roman poets, principally Virgil and Ovid, who inevitably added their own interpretation to the epics. Dante, moreover, seem not to have even read the [*Ilias Latina*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilias_Latina), a Latin version of the Illiad.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; He seems to have been unfamiliar with Ilias latina, a Latin version of the Iliad, now thought to have been the work of Baebius Italicus in the first century CE.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Barański, Zygmunt G., and Lino Pertile, eds. *Dante in Context.* Cambridge University Press, 2015.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Specifically, Virgil portrayed Ulysses as a deceitful manipulator, whereas the Greeks seems to have considered Odysseus' cunning and quick wits a virtue. Virgil's version is the one that Dante encounters in Hell.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;That said, the specific story Dante's Ulisse tells of his fate appears to be original work.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Dante's apparently original reworking of the conclusion of Odysseus' story is well known. The disastrous last voyage of this voracious and restless intellect has been read as a metaphor for the &quot;misguided philosophical Odyssey&quot; of Dante's own experience just after the death of Beatrice.&#xD;&#xA;&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; &lt;sub&gt;Lamberton, Robert. *Homer the Theologian: Neoplatonist allegorical reading and the growth of the epic tradition.* University of California Press, 1989.&lt;/sub&gt;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31028" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10909" RevisionGUID="60d465a1-06a7-4172-8d4b-864f02b2b020" CreationDate="2024-02-26T06:24:27.003" UserId="11006" Comment="added 8 characters in body" Text="Dante is using Odysseus freely as a metaphor for the Greek Tradition in Canto 26. It is meant to illustrate the intellectual/rational hubris, when detached from a larger spiritual and embedding frame of the Heavens. This is why Odysseus drowns as he sees mount Purgatory. His denial of the transcendent blocks it by nature.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;And Dante himself largely related to this impetus of rationality-alone hubris. Which is why, he's almost falling down into the little valley of fires in circle 8." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31029" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10910" RevisionGUID="786d50f0-1538-4f05-808e-08658635326b" CreationDate="2024-02-26T08:41:49.533" UserId="11001" Text="Yes, the *Divine Comedy* is an original fictional allegory, a fantasy, an epic and technically an Aristotelian comedy because it has a happy ending. The *Inferno, Purgatorio* and *Paradiso* came out of Dante's own trauma of being expelled from Florence. He is the hero on his own journey through hell and back (the definition of an epic myth according to Joseph Campbell).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dante's Odysseus differs from Homer's in the same way his versions of hell and purgatory diverge from the Bible's and his version of Aristotle isn't completely Aristotelian. His attributions of Cleopatra, Judas Iscariot, or his own enemies diverged from other writer's versions of history as well. It is not a matter of ignorance of what Homer had to say, or not knowing what the Bible says about purgatory or hell. He was re-writing Myth. That Myth could easily contradict Homer, the Bible and Aristotle. It was a new paradigm with its own internal validity. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The evidence Dante was successful in writing new myth is that it has been echoed through time and throughout Western culture. Renaissance painters Michelangelo, Sandro Botticelli, Hieronymus Bosch, William Blake, and Gustave Doré painted Dante's infernal imagery. Centuries later, John Milton based *Paradise Lost* on The Divine Comedy. According to a number of 18th Century writers such as Samuel Coleridge and James Joyce, *The Divine Comedy* was on par with Homer. Dante succeeded in writing a different myth than the ones he referenced.  &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;  Pache, Corinne Ondine, ed. “Dante and Homer.” In The Cambridge Guide to Homer, 582–584. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2020. Accessed February 26, 2024. https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/cambridge-guide-to-homer/dante-and-homer/F3411BBFC43CC24D23DDA93D82351F81.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31031" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10910" RevisionGUID="6f9c978c-32ea-423b-a6a6-2f80d1c0a735" CreationDate="2024-02-26T08:46:56.483" UserId="11001" Comment="deleted 169 characters in body" Text="Yes, the *Divine Comedy* and Dante's Odysseus is an original fictional allegory, a fantasy, an epic and technically an Aristotelian comedy because it has a happy ending. The *Inferno, Purgatorio* and *Paradiso* came out of Dante's own trauma of being expelled from Florence. He is the hero on his own journey through hell and back (Joseph Campbell).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Dante's Odysseus differs from Homer's in the same way his versions of hell and purgatory diverge from the Bible's and his version of Aristotle isn't completely Aristotelian. His attributions of Cleopatra, Judas Iscariot, or his own enemies diverged from other writer's versions of history as well. It is not a matter of ignorance of what Homer or Virgil had to say, or not knowing what the Bible says about purgatory or hell. He was re-writing Myth. That Myth could easily contradict Homer, the Bible and Aristotle, usually with simultaneous praise. It was a new paradigm with its own internal validity. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The evidence Dante was successful in writing new myth is that it has been echoed through time and throughout Western culture. Renaissance painters Michelangelo, Sandro Botticelli, Hieronymus Bosch, William Blake, and Gustave Doré painted Dante's infernal imagery. Centuries later, John Milton based *Paradise Lost* on The Divine Comedy. According to a number of 18th Century writers such as Samuel Coleridge and James Joyce, *The Divine Comedy* was on par with Homer. Dante succeeded in writing a different myth than the ones he referenced.  &#xD;&#xA; &#xD;&#xA;  https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1884/07/the-underworld-in-homer-virgil-and-dante/633365/&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31032" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10911" RevisionGUID="2036341d-b672-4d34-87d7-5d6e2bdc68e0" CreationDate="2024-02-26T14:08:59.723" UserId="309" Text="Let me continue the trail from [where cmw left off](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/10908)…&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The obvious first thing to do, when faced with an unfamiliar Sumerian word, would be to check the [Pennsylvania Sumerian Dictionary](http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/).  However, the ePSD search interface is somewhat quirky (to be polite) and may require some familiarity and exploration to actually find what you need.  In particular, just typing &quot;cemuc&quot; into the ePSD dictionary search brings up no matches.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, with a bit of knowledge of Sumerian, and the fact that this word is supposed to describe some type of barley (and that &quot;c&quot; is actually supposed to be &quot;š&quot;), we can make the educated guess that this word is probably a compound of _še_ (), meaning &quot;grain&quot; or &quot;barley&quot;, and some cuneiform sign that can be read as _muš_, such as:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-  (MUŠ), with [various uses](http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/psl/html/extra/x4c4.html), the most common and basic probably being [_muš_ = &quot;snake&quot;](http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e3832.html);&#xD;&#xA;-  (MUŠ&lt;sub&gt;3&lt;/sub&gt; = INANA), probably best knows as the logogram for the goddess Inanna (); or&#xD;&#xA;-  (MUŠ&lt;sub&gt;5&lt;/sub&gt; = ŠEŠ), most commonly used to write the word [_šeš_ = &quot;brother&quot;](http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e5325.html).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In particular, if you instead search ePSD for &quot;ce-muc&quot; (or &quot;ce-muc5&quot;) with a hyphen to separate the signs, you'll get an entry for &quot;še-muš = [_šeĝuš_ [BARLEY]](http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e5270.html)&quot;, with the following line at the top:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; šeĝuš [BARLEY] (20x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III) wr. še-muš; še-muš&lt;sub&gt;5&lt;/sub&gt; &quot;a barley&quot; Akk. _šigūšu_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unpacking this dictionary entry a bit, we can tell from it that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Yes, this is an actual attested Sumerian word.&#xD;&#xA;- The editors of the Pennsylvania Sumerian Dictionary believe it should actually be transcribed as _šeĝuš_ rather than _šemuš_.  (The letter &quot;ĝ&quot; in Sumerian transcription denotes a velar nasal consonant, more or less like the /ŋ/ sound commonly written &quot;ng&quot; in English.)&#xD;&#xA;- It is attested from 20 different sources, dated to the Early Dynastic IIIb, Old Akkadian and Ur III periods.  (The table on the page below the dictionary entry shows how many times each spelling is attested in each period.) &#xD;&#xA;- It is written in cuneiform as  (še-muš) or  (še-muš&lt;sub&gt;5&lt;/sub&gt;).&#xD;&#xA;- The corresponding Akkadian word is _šigūšu_ (or presumably _šigūšum_ in the Old Akkadian period, before final mimation was lost).  Given the similarity to the Sumerian word and the lack of a transparent Akkadian etymology, it is presumably a straight phonetic loanword from Sumerian.&#xD;&#xA;- It means some kind of barley.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further down on the page there are also citations to two articles by M. Powell, published in 1984 and 1987 in &quot;BSA&quot;, which according to [this handy list of assyriological abbreviations](https://cdli.ox.ac.uk/wiki/abbreviations_for_assyriology) refers to the _Bulletin on Sumerian Agriculture_.  Alas, I haven't managed to track down either of these publications yet.  (I did find various PDF copies of the Bulletin online, but not those specific issues.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, perhaps the most useful thing in the ePSD entry is the Akkadian translation, since having it means that we can look it up in an Akkadian dictionary such as the [Concise Dictionary of Akkadian (CDA)](https://eprints.soas.ac.uk/1607/1/CDA.pdf) or the far more comprehensive [Chicago Assyrian Dictionary (CAD)](https://isac.uchicago.edu/research/publications/chicago-assyrian-dictionary), both of which can be downloaded in PDF form for free.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Looking up _šigūšu_ in the CDA just gives us this brief entry, which is not much more informative than the one from ePSD:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **šigūšu**, _šegūšu_, _šeguššu_  **1.** O/jB (a type of barley) [ŠE.MUŠ&lt;sub&gt;5&lt;/sub&gt;] bread, flour of _š._  **2.** jB lex. (a kind of apple tree)?; &lt; Sum.?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unpacking this again, we get the following additional information:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- a couple of alternative transcriptions (_šegūšu_, _šeguššu_), which may reflect actual historical variation in pronunciation and/or ambiguities in the Akkadian cuneiform writing system;&#xD;&#xA;- a note that the word could also be used to describe bread or flour made from this type of barley;&#xD;&#xA;- a possible secondary meaning (&quot;a kind of apple tree&quot;) only attested in lexical lists (basically a type of ancient dictionary) in late Standard Babylonian (a.k.a. _jungbabylonisch_ = jB), whereas the primary meaning (&quot;a type of barley&quot;) is also attested in Old Babylonian (OB); and&#xD;&#xA;- a confirmation at the end that this is indeed likely a loanword from Sumerian.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the CAD (specifically [volume 17: Š (part 2)](https://isac.uchicago.edu/sites/default/files/uploads/shared/docs/cad_s_shin_2.pdf)) gives a lot more information.  Looking up _šigūšu_ on page 414 just redirects us to the spelling _šeguššu_, which the CAD editors apparently prefer, but the entry for _šeguššu_ on pp. 261–262 gives a trove of details and attestations.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm not going to try to quote the whole entry here, but it starts with:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **šeguššu** (_šegūšu_, _šigūšu_) s.; **1.** (a cereal), **2.** (a kind of apple tree); OB, MB, SB; Sum. lw.; wr. syll. and ŠE.MUŠ&lt;sub&gt;5&lt;/sub&gt; (ŠE.MUŠ)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Again we have the variant transcriptions, two meanings, attestations from Old, Middle and Standard Babylonian, and a note that this is a Sumerian loanword and that it could be written either syllabically (according to the Akkadian pronunciation) or with the &quot;sumerograms&quot;  (ŠE.MUŠ&lt;sub&gt;5&lt;/sub&gt;) or  (ŠE.MUŠ).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is followed by a couple of lexical attestations, such as &quot;še-mu-uš ŠE.ŠEŠ = _ši-gu-šú_&quot; from the Diri V lexical list.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As noted above, these lexical lists were essentially ancient dictionaries, typically listing a bunch of semantically similar Sumerian words (e.g. plants, animals, cities, deities, etc.), their approximate Sumerian pronunciation written with syllabic signs, and often a translation or a gloss in Akkadian.  These lists were frequently copied by student scribes as part of their training, which is why they have survived in many (but often incomplete) copies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The entry from the Diri V list, for example, indicates that according to this particular list, the Sumerian word written as  (ŠE.ŠEŠ = ŠE.MUŠ&lt;sub&gt;5&lt;/sub&gt;) was pronounced (approximately) as _šemuš_ (or _šeĝuš_; the sign  = MU = GU&lt;sub&gt;10&lt;/sub&gt; could be read as either _mu_ or _ĝu_ in Sumerian) and corresponded to &quot;_šigūšu_&quot; in Akkadian.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What these lexical lists do _not_ usually include, however, is any details about what these words actually _meant_.  Presumably the meaning of all the words would've been known to the scribal students copying such lists, or at least something they could ask their teacher to explain.  Alas, those teachers have been dead for thousands of years, and often the best we can do now is try to infer the meaning of uncommon words from the (typically semantically similar) words listed near them in the same lexical lists, or from occasional non-lexical attestations.  That's why modern Sumerian and Akkadian dictionaries have so many entries that are just translated as e.g. &quot;a plant&quot;, &quot;an animal&quot; or &quot;a type of priest&quot;, because all we really know about them is that they appear in a list of such things.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For _šeguššu_, however, the CAD does provide several non-lexical attestations as well.  From these, we can infer e.g. that this _šeguššu_:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- was grown on fields,&#xD;&#xA;- could be ground into flour and used to make break,&#xD;&#xA;- could be used to make beer,&#xD;&#xA;- could be loaded on wagons,&#xD;&#xA;- could be fed to horses,&#xD;&#xA;- was often often mentioned together with _arsuppu_ (a type of early barley), _inninu_ / _enninu_ (also a type of barley) and sometimes other cereals (wheat, emmer, etc.), and&#xD;&#xA;- also had plenty of ritual and/or medical uses (to which about half the CAD entry is devoted).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In particular, a note at the end of the CAD entry for _šeguššu_ says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Since the word often occurs beside _arsuppu_ early barley, _šeguššu_ may denote the late barley, see Civil, Nippur 11th Season (= OIC 22) 130.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(&quot;OIC&quot; here refers to the [_Oriental Institute Communications_](https://isac.uchicago.edu/research/publications/oriental-institute-communications-oic) of the University of Chicago, which are also conveniently available online, so this is a reference I can actually check.  However, looking at [issue 22](https://isac.uchicago.edu/sites/default/files/uploads/shared/docs/oic22.pdf), pp. 129–130, there really isn't much there.  Civil just translates [a fragment of a model contract](https://cdli.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/artifacts/459060), reading &quot;30 gur še-eštub / 20 gur še-muš&lt;sub&gt;5&lt;/sub&gt;&quot;, as &quot;_30 [gur](https://cdli.ox.ac.uk/wiki/doku.php?id=neo_babylonian_weights_and_measures) of early grain and 30_ (sic!) _gur of late grain_&quot;, noting that &quot;the grain še-muš&lt;sub&gt;5&lt;/sub&gt;, almost always next to še-eštub, is unusual but not unknown in administrative texts&quot;, with citations to several earlier publications that presumably include these further attestations.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31034" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10911" RevisionGUID="1f2cb11a-78d4-43d7-9b69-8ba25efd6ddc" CreationDate="2024-02-26T14:15:41.947" UserId="309" Comment="bread, not break" Text="Let me continue the trail from [where cmw left off](https://mythology.stackexchange.com/a/10908)…&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;**TL;DR:** The actual Sumerian name for this type of barley was probably _šeĝuš_ (&quot;shengush&quot;; although _šemuš_ is also a possible reading), which was loaned into Akkadian as _šigūšu_, _šegūšu_ or _šeguššu_.  All we really know about it is that it was most likely some type of barley, although the fact that it's often mentioned in parallel with _še'eštub_ (&quot;spring barley&quot;, Akkadian _arsuppu_) suggests that it might be a variety harvested later in the year.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The obvious first thing to do, when faced with an unfamiliar Sumerian word, would be to check the [Pennsylvania Sumerian Dictionary](http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/).  However, the ePSD search interface is somewhat quirky (to be polite) and may require some familiarity and exploration to actually find what you need.  In particular, just typing &quot;cemuc&quot; into the ePSD dictionary search brings up no matches.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, with a bit of knowledge of Sumerian, and the fact that this word is supposed to describe some type of barley (and that &quot;c&quot; is actually supposed to be &quot;š&quot;), we can make the educated guess that this word is probably a compound of _še_ (), meaning &quot;grain&quot; or &quot;barley&quot;, and some cuneiform sign that can be read as _muš_, such as:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;-  (MUŠ), with [various uses](http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/psl/html/extra/x4c4.html), the most common and basic probably being [_muš_ = &quot;snake&quot;](http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e3832.html);&#xD;&#xA;-  (MUŠ&lt;sub&gt;3&lt;/sub&gt; = INANA), probably best knows as the logogram for the goddess Inanna (); or&#xD;&#xA;-  (MUŠ&lt;sub&gt;5&lt;/sub&gt; = ŠEŠ), most commonly used to write the word [_šeš_ = &quot;brother&quot;](http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e5325.html).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In particular, if you instead search ePSD for &quot;ce-muc&quot; (or &quot;ce-muc5&quot;) with a hyphen to separate the signs, you'll get an entry for &quot;še-muš = [_šeĝuš_ [BARLEY]](http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e5270.html)&quot;, with the following line at the top:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; šeĝuš [BARLEY] (20x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III) wr. še-muš; še-muš&lt;sub&gt;5&lt;/sub&gt; &quot;a barley&quot; Akk. _šigūšu_&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unpacking this dictionary entry a bit, we can tell from it that:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- Yes, this is an actual attested Sumerian word.&#xD;&#xA;- The editors of the Pennsylvania Sumerian Dictionary believe it should actually be transcribed as _šeĝuš_ rather than _šemuš_.  (The letter &quot;ĝ&quot; in Sumerian transcription denotes a velar nasal consonant, more or less like the /ŋ/ sound commonly written &quot;ng&quot; in English.)&#xD;&#xA;- It is attested from 20 different sources, dated to the Early Dynastic IIIb, Old Akkadian and Ur III periods.  (The table on the page below the dictionary entry shows how many times each spelling is attested in each period.) &#xD;&#xA;- It is written in cuneiform as  (še-muš) or  (še-muš&lt;sub&gt;5&lt;/sub&gt;).&#xD;&#xA;- The corresponding Akkadian word is _šigūšu_ (or presumably _šigūšum_ in the Old Akkadian period, before final mimation was lost).  Given the similarity to the Sumerian word and the lack of a transparent Akkadian etymology, it is presumably a straight phonetic loanword from Sumerian.&#xD;&#xA;- It means some kind of barley.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Further down on the page there are also citations to two articles by M. Powell, published in 1984 and 1987 in &quot;BSA&quot;, which according to [this handy list of assyriological abbreviations](https://cdli.ox.ac.uk/wiki/abbreviations_for_assyriology) refers to the _Bulletin on Sumerian Agriculture_.  Alas, I haven't managed to track down either of these publications yet.  (I did find various PDF copies of the Bulletin online, but not those specific issues.)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, perhaps the most useful thing in the ePSD entry is the Akkadian translation, since having it means that we can look it up in an Akkadian dictionary such as the [Concise Dictionary of Akkadian (CDA)](https://eprints.soas.ac.uk/1607/1/CDA.pdf) or the far more comprehensive [Chicago Assyrian Dictionary (CAD)](https://isac.uchicago.edu/research/publications/chicago-assyrian-dictionary), both of which can be downloaded in PDF form for free.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Looking up _šigūšu_ in the CDA just gives us this brief entry, which is not much more informative than the one from ePSD:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **šigūšu**, _šegūšu_, _šeguššu_  **1.** O/jB (a type of barley) [ŠE.MUŠ&lt;sub&gt;5&lt;/sub&gt;] bread, flour of _š._  **2.** jB lex. (a kind of apple tree)?; &lt; Sum.?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Unpacking this again, we get the following additional information:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- a couple of alternative transcriptions (_šegūšu_, _šeguššu_), which may reflect actual historical variation in pronunciation and/or ambiguities in the Akkadian cuneiform writing system;&#xD;&#xA;- a note that the word could also be used to describe bread or flour made from this type of barley;&#xD;&#xA;- a possible secondary meaning (&quot;a kind of apple tree&quot;) only attested in lexical lists (basically a type of ancient dictionary) in late Standard Babylonian (a.k.a. _jungbabylonisch_ = jB), whereas the primary meaning (&quot;a type of barley&quot;) is also attested in Old Babylonian (OB); and&#xD;&#xA;- a confirmation at the end that this is indeed likely a loanword from Sumerian.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;----&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;However, the CAD (specifically [volume 17: Š (part 2)](https://isac.uchicago.edu/sites/default/files/uploads/shared/docs/cad_s_shin_2.pdf)) gives a lot more information.  Looking up _šigūšu_ on page 414 just redirects us to the spelling _šeguššu_, which the CAD editors apparently prefer, but the entry for _šeguššu_ on pp. 261–262 gives a trove of details and attestations.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I'm not going to try to quote the whole entry here, but it starts with:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; **šeguššu** (_šegūšu_, _šigūšu_) s.; **1.** (a cereal), **2.** (a kind of apple tree); OB, MB, SB; Sum. lw.; wr. syll. and ŠE.MUŠ&lt;sub&gt;5&lt;/sub&gt; (ŠE.MUŠ)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Again we have the variant transcriptions, two meanings, attestations from Old, Middle and Standard Babylonian, and a note that this is a Sumerian loanword and that it could be written either syllabically (according to the Akkadian pronunciation) or with the &quot;sumerograms&quot;  (ŠE.MUŠ&lt;sub&gt;5&lt;/sub&gt;) or  (ŠE.MUŠ).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;This is followed by a couple of lexical attestations, such as &quot;še-mu-uš ŠE.ŠEŠ = _ši-gu-šú_&quot; from the Diri V lexical list.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;As noted above, these lexical lists were essentially ancient dictionaries, typically listing a bunch of semantically similar Sumerian words (e.g. plants, animals, cities, deities, etc.), their approximate Sumerian pronunciation written with syllabic signs, and often a translation or a gloss in Akkadian.  These lists were frequently copied by student scribes as part of their training, which is why they have survived in many (but often incomplete) copies.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The entry from the Diri V list, for example, indicates that according to this particular list, the Sumerian word written as  (ŠE.ŠEŠ = ŠE.MUŠ&lt;sub&gt;5&lt;/sub&gt;) was pronounced (approximately) as _šemuš_ (or _šeĝuš_; the sign  = MU = GU&lt;sub&gt;10&lt;/sub&gt; could be read as either _mu_ or _ĝu_ in Sumerian) and corresponded to &quot;_šigūšu_&quot; in Akkadian.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;What these lexical lists do _not_ usually include, however, is any details about what these words actually _meant_.  Presumably the meaning of all the words would've been known to the scribal students copying such lists, or at least something they could ask their teacher to explain.  Alas, those teachers have been dead for thousands of years, and often the best we can do now is try to infer the meaning of uncommon words from the (typically semantically similar) words listed near them in the same lexical lists, or from occasional non-lexical attestations.  That's why modern Sumerian and Akkadian dictionaries have so many entries that are just translated as e.g. &quot;a plant&quot;, &quot;an animal&quot; or &quot;a type of priest&quot;, because all we really know about them is that they appear in a list of such things.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;For _šeguššu_, however, the CAD does provide several non-lexical attestations as well.  From these, we can infer e.g. that this _šeguššu_:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;- was grown on fields,&#xD;&#xA;- could be ground into flour and used to make bread,&#xD;&#xA;- could be used to make beer,&#xD;&#xA;- could be loaded on wagons,&#xD;&#xA;- could be fed to horses,&#xD;&#xA;- was often often mentioned together with _arsuppu_ (a type of early barley), _inninu_ / _enninu_ (also a type of barley) and sometimes other cereals (wheat, emmer, etc.), and&#xD;&#xA;- also had plenty of ritual and/or medical uses (to which about half the CAD entry is devoted).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In particular, a note at the end of the CAD entry for _šeguššu_ says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; Since the word often occurs beside _arsuppu_ early barley, _šeguššu_ may denote the late barley, see Civil, Nippur 11th Season (= OIC 22) 130.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;(&quot;OIC&quot; here refers to the [_Oriental Institute Communications_](https://isac.uchicago.edu/research/publications/oriental-institute-communications-oic) of the University of Chicago, which are also conveniently available online, so this is a reference I can actually check.  However, looking at [issue 22](https://isac.uchicago.edu/sites/default/files/uploads/shared/docs/oic22.pdf), pp. 129–130, there really isn't much there.  Civil just translates [a fragment of a model contract](https://cdli.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/artifacts/459060), reading &quot;30 gur še-eštub / 20 gur še-muš&lt;sub&gt;5&lt;/sub&gt;&quot;, as &quot;_30 [gur](https://cdli.ox.ac.uk/wiki/doku.php?id=neo_babylonian_weights_and_measures) of early grain and 30_ (sic!) _gur of late grain_&quot;, noting that &quot;the grain še-muš&lt;sub&gt;5&lt;/sub&gt;, almost always next to še-eštub, is unusual but not unknown in administrative texts&quot;, with citations to several earlier publications that presumably include these further attestations.)" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31036" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10912" RevisionGUID="0baab436-52b5-45f2-b0d9-bbdefe7d995f" CreationDate="2024-02-28T23:45:23.800" UserId="6796" Text="Snorre is kind of answering this question himself, and say that it the tradition of sages and skalds to know that the Norse Gods are humans, yet they appears through avatars, or say the Greek equivalent concept naos. Snorre makes several references to classic Greek and Roman litterature, quite concretely to the Aeneid by Virgil, where the Pythagorean notion of metempsychosis is quite clear. I think it is a bit undermining to talk of this desire to connect everything to the epic Trojan war as a fashion. The Trojan War, also known as the Vanir-Æsir war, is a point of reference for all great historians. It must be understood that Snorre Sturlasson is not any chieftain on a remote island in the North Atlantic, but also at various times the Lawspeaker of Þjoðveldið, a realm extending into Scandinavia, Ireland and even Britain. Þjoðveldið becomes annexed to the Kingdom of Norway after the Civil War period. The civil war period is quite a misnomer, as we will find that the Civil War period of Norway is the same civil war in all the Scandinavian realms. Tjoðveldið centered on Iceland as a refuge of the all-Scandinavian Commonwealth of Uppsala were split up, quite some time before the new type of regime appears with the assumed first king of Norway, Harald I Fairhair Halfdansson. The dissidents to this regime with Merovingan, Carolingian affiliations, with the novel and violent feudalist-approving form of Christianity wiped out the resurgent Gothic form of Christianity, we will recognize with Emperor Frederic Barbarossa, who is contemporary. The Gothic form of Christianity is a bit of a catch-all phrase, as it encompasses Gaelic-Celtic-Norse christianity, in lieu with what is known as Pelagianism, in these northern direction, as well as the Priscillianism of the Kathars, also known as the Albigensians in France, Italy and norther Spain. It is worthy to recognize that the very word for heretic in Scandinavian 'kjetter' derives from this presumed heresy of the kathars, etymologically through German 'kätzer' (or something, I should look it up to confirm). Þjoðveldið, the Icelandic Commowealth was very much in tune with the religious policy of Emperor Frederick Barbarossa! Following the defeat of this policy, the end of the investiture conflict, the lay-people's involvement and political control of the hierarchization of the Church were lost. This all-European conflict continued a hundred years more in Norway, until King Haakon IV Haakonsen won over the king claimant Duke Skule Baardsson in Norway, and got Snorre Sturlasson killed in 1241. It should be remembered that the Tjoðveldið had its period also in Norway during the reign of King Sverre Sigurdsson, who were from the Færey Islands, a close ally with Snorre Sturlasson and the regime of the Goðs. Tjoðveldið were also called Goðveldið. The chieftain-laypeople chaplains were in fact called Goðs - a reference to the Scandinavian Goths.. What I held as plausible and possibly true, is fringe, as it is not the story of the winners. The great Norwegian playwright Henrik Ibsen says that all his works centers on this theme, the contrafactual history, if you like. Constantly, throughout his plays, questioning the convention of the winners' story. Snorre Sturlasson and the elder master Sæmund Froði is to me very obvious christians in the wisdom-tradition of Pelagius, and apologetic of the ancient customs and wisdom, situating the Norse mythology and legends not as nationalistic romanticising the savage barbarian of pre-christian times. It is in fact astonishingly detailed, custodian of world history and litterature. Several works that were translated, yet refurbished for a Norse audience, are from classic sources that has otherwise got lost. It is a sad reality though, that very much of this is still strangely unknown, and undermined. We need to understand the context of the Saga-litterature and that this tradtions were not favoured by neither the catholic-feudal regime that won, nor the Lutheran-absolutist regime. The then emerging capitalist nation-state ideologies culminating in the nazi idyllisation of the Arian Norse, have made it very difficult to bring a decent presentation of it all. My experience, being a Norwegian, increasingly able to read the old norse language, with a family tree stretching back into the Saga era, is that interest in the Norse has become quite awkward and filled with some kind of taboo. Of course, common peoples notions are heavily influenced by the nauseating Hollywood stereotype, a continuation of the ethno-state fabrication of history. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It is astonishing to experience the disbelief I meet when I tell that Snorre in the Prologus to his Edda tells that Thor with the Hammer was at the time of the Trojan War the Prince of Ethiopia. The seafaring Icelanders were not remote, they were internationalists, trading with Manhattan and London and Kyiv, Sicily and the Takrouris of the Niger river. Pre-feudal peoples were not serf-bound by blut und boden. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;To conclude.. yes the Norse people of the Saga era perceived it as heathen (being the same as ethno-oriente) to believe in Thor and Odin etcetera as Gods and to worship them as such, but Snorri Sturlasson and his associates did insist that these heathen practices weren't the norm, only some un-enlightened fraction did so. Heathen didn't signify the belief in pre-christian deities, but to be cut off from the rest of the world. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Luckily digitalisation has come to quite advanced level. It is a true treasure:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://onp.ku.dk/onp/onp.php&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;https://heimskringla.no/wiki/Prologus&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31038" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10913" RevisionGUID="252179a1-ebf6-40c2-8605-93afae95fe6d" CreationDate="2024-03-01T17:22:34.330" UserId="53" Text="Fairy Tales are stories in folklore passed down for generations.  Their main purpose is to provide moral education for children.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Use this tag for the meaning and / or origin of these tales." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31040" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10913" RevisionGUID="252179a1-ebf6-40c2-8605-93afae95fe6d" CreationDate="2024-03-01T17:22:34.330" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
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  <row Id="31046" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10915" RevisionGUID="174d42a7-8bb0-408d-9d74-bfbba75f2e77" CreationDate="2024-03-01T17:24:06.510" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31047" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10916" RevisionGUID="11c01645-7f73-43b4-83d5-bc8e84eb6ac0" CreationDate="2024-03-01T17:24:06.510" UserId="53" Text="For myths originating in mediaeval Europe." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31049" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10916" RevisionGUID="11c01645-7f73-43b4-83d5-bc8e84eb6ac0" CreationDate="2024-03-01T17:24:06.510" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31050" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10917" RevisionGUID="176262c1-d1f3-443f-99b6-5604d5fffb7a" CreationDate="2024-03-01T17:24:42.930" UserId="53" Text="For myths originating specifically in Scotland." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31052" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10917" RevisionGUID="176262c1-d1f3-443f-99b6-5604d5fffb7a" CreationDate="2024-03-01T17:24:42.930" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31053" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10918" RevisionGUID="73a34256-34e8-4482-af99-ef481a991086" CreationDate="2024-03-01T17:24:42.930" UserId="53" Text="For myths originating in Scotland." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31055" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10918" RevisionGUID="73a34256-34e8-4482-af99-ef481a991086" CreationDate="2024-03-01T17:24:42.930" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31057" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10919" RevisionGUID="8b196f21-f63b-40ee-9867-0f333e4806e7" CreationDate="2024-03-01T17:27:45.757" UserId="53" Text="Many cultures associate significance to certain dreams.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Use this tag to explore them." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31059" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10919" RevisionGUID="8b196f21-f63b-40ee-9867-0f333e4806e7" CreationDate="2024-03-01T17:27:45.757" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31060" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10920" RevisionGUID="658f6bb1-6f72-4f32-a190-964c960cf6cd" CreationDate="2024-03-01T17:27:45.757" UserId="53" Text="For the mythological significance of dreams." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31062" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10920" RevisionGUID="658f6bb1-6f72-4f32-a190-964c960cf6cd" CreationDate="2024-03-01T17:27:45.757" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31063" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10921" RevisionGUID="ce2fd8c5-7b46-44cb-b10c-f39b36d4cbc1" CreationDate="2024-03-01T17:28:52.123" UserId="53" Text="For myths surrounding the Greek godess Demeter, the godess of the harvest." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31065" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10921" RevisionGUID="ce2fd8c5-7b46-44cb-b10c-f39b36d4cbc1" CreationDate="2024-03-01T17:28:52.123" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31066" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10922" RevisionGUID="b66166c6-d8d5-4624-b779-3978f8485c7f" CreationDate="2024-03-01T17:28:52.123" UserId="53" Text="For myths surrounding the Greek godess Demeter." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31068" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10922" RevisionGUID="b66166c6-d8d5-4624-b779-3978f8485c7f" CreationDate="2024-03-01T17:28:52.123" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31069" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10923" RevisionGUID="a54545c2-3fe0-4b26-a92a-cf1dc6ba1c0b" CreationDate="2024-03-01T17:32:15.403" UserId="53" Text="Nursery Rhymes are used in the education of very young children.  Many of these rhymes have origins relating to real or mythical past events.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Use this tag to explore them.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;See also [tag:fairy-tales]&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31071" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10923" RevisionGUID="a54545c2-3fe0-4b26-a92a-cf1dc6ba1c0b" CreationDate="2024-03-01T17:32:15.403" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31072" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10924" RevisionGUID="ae9be24d-f65a-49bd-9e58-a93b8e0708d2" CreationDate="2024-03-01T17:32:15.403" UserId="53" Text="For the origin and meaning of Nursery Rhymes" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31074" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10924" RevisionGUID="ae9be24d-f65a-49bd-9e58-a93b8e0708d2" CreationDate="2024-03-01T17:32:15.403" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31075" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10925" RevisionGUID="91609cd5-384a-4eb7-ad8f-93fbee422e8d" CreationDate="2024-03-01T17:33:13.323" UserId="53" Text="For myths originating in the Basque country, an area in modern Southern France and Northern Spain." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31077" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10925" RevisionGUID="91609cd5-384a-4eb7-ad8f-93fbee422e8d" CreationDate="2024-03-01T17:33:13.323" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31078" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10926" RevisionGUID="bf8fdf47-7036-4f65-8776-688cb9ce112c" CreationDate="2024-03-01T17:33:13.323" UserId="53" Text="For myths originating in the Basque country." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31080" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10926" RevisionGUID="bf8fdf47-7036-4f65-8776-688cb9ce112c" CreationDate="2024-03-01T17:33:13.323" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31081" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10927" RevisionGUID="c6ac27cb-a8a8-4e3b-b5cd-4bd583e80ad2" CreationDate="2024-03-01T17:35:12.600" UserId="53" Text="The nine Muses were ancient greek godesses who inspired artistic endeavours.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Use this tag for them." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31083" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10927" RevisionGUID="c6ac27cb-a8a8-4e3b-b5cd-4bd583e80ad2" CreationDate="2024-03-01T17:35:12.600" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31084" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10928" RevisionGUID="07df62d8-e59d-4b07-8185-fac685f76dc8" CreationDate="2024-03-01T17:35:12.600" UserId="53" Text="For th ancient greek Muses." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31086" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10928" RevisionGUID="07df62d8-e59d-4b07-8185-fac685f76dc8" CreationDate="2024-03-01T17:35:12.600" UserId="53" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31087" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10929" RevisionGUID="7a105f97-e44f-4a28-aca1-9c590a909211" CreationDate="2024-03-03T18:16:40.840" UserId="11024" Text="I believe it is a derivation of Jotun (Iotunn) or Jotnar where the old English likely also comes from, eotunn, all representing giant. Where there are examples of what the classical depiction of a dicephalous creature is as an Ettin. In Nordic mythology, the Ringlefinch is depicted to be two-headed and is a Jotun creature or Troll. It's possible folklore merged Trolls, Ogres, or Giants together to create such a mythological creature. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31089" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10332" RevisionGUID="5135ffce-ed5e-4d88-902b-74146b2f3980" CreationDate="2024-03-03T19:14:06.273" UserId="7106" Comment="added 25 characters in body" Text="Christian symbolism can be found in Irish and Scandinavian mythologies, as the authors that recorded it were Christian and probably wrote about it centuries later. Was there ever a Christianization of Egyptian myths? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I am looking for some sort of text where a common Egyptian tale has some evident elements of Christianity incorporated in it. There is a gap of a few centuries of Christianity in Roman Egypt were that could have happened but maybe it was too short lived? (300 years give or take)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Most sources I could find deal with possible influence of Egyptian myths on Abrahamic religions, but I would like to know if the opposite ever had place. The same question could be asked about Persian and Islam influence on the myths. How did early Christians wrote about Egyptian myths?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31095" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10931" RevisionGUID="bafa1d06-4383-48df-8aab-da6ab370c183" CreationDate="2024-03-10T10:47:41.420" UserId="11042" Text="Possibly it was a box thorn plant. There are a number of varieties that live above and below the water " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31097" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10932" RevisionGUID="f063a775-1701-4678-81b0-e2606619ff11" CreationDate="2024-03-11T09:17:45.310" UserId="11044" Text="I believe the seven spirits of the Lord, is God seen in Jesus as a man but without sin for man to live by because he knows good and evil.  Satan knew God as he was, and he sinned against Him. By Lucifer sinning against God, man was created to have a choice. Man is to be what Lucifer was to God, with all men having the same knowledge of God through Jesus, with the fear of God dwelling on the inside, meaning the love of God knowing good and evil." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31099" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10932" RevisionGUID="50be9d5f-7e2d-46c1-8b4a-5885070fd3e7" CreationDate="2024-03-11T09:23:22.163" UserId="11044" Comment="edited body" Text="I believe the seven spirits of the Lord, is God seen in Jesus as a man but without sin for man to live by because he knows good and evil.  Satan knew God as he was, and he sinned against Him. By Lucifer sinning against God, man was created to have a choice. Man is to be what Lucifer was to God; with all men having the same knowledge of God through Jesus, with the fear of God dwelling on the inside, meaning the love of God knowing good and evil." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31100" PostHistoryTypeId="50" PostId="10202" RevisionGUID="b367de49-0668-42ec-a45e-a48581840cee" CreationDate="2024-03-12T19:02:05.240" UserId="-1" />
  <row Id="31101" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10873" RevisionGUID="3a73ee99-fab4-4997-9457-20d2f4aa5e87" CreationDate="2024-03-12T19:26:16.253" UserId="4601" Comment="added 10 characters in body" Text="Tezcatlipoca's foot, if you count an obsidian mirror:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;Tezcatlipoca (pronounced teska-tli-pooka) was the Aztec god of creation and revenge. In certain drawings, he is depicted with his right foot gone and a “prosthesis” of obsidian (black volcanic glass) or a bone. The story goes that Tezcatlipoca lost his foot while battling the Earth Monster during creation.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;—[Prosthetics through the Ages: From Myth to Practice](https://www.ipfh.org/media-press/features/prosthetics-through-the-ages-from-myth-to-practice) &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt;He is often depicted with various symbolic objects in place of his right foot, such as an obsidian mirror, bone, or a serpent. This is an allusion to the creation myth, in which Tezcatlipoca loses his foot battling with the earth monster Cipactli.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;—[Wikipedia: Tezcatlipoca](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tezcatlipoca)&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31102" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10933" RevisionGUID="dad2558a-b2ed-4f48-8316-5185ad9a0dd2" CreationDate="2024-03-15T23:25:42.093" UserId="7315" Text="The Indian solar deity *[Savitr][1]* is said to have had both of his hands cut off. He was then gifted with new hands made of gold. Georges Dumézil devoted a chapter of his book *[Mitra-Varuna: An Essay on Two Indo-European Representations of Sovereignty][2]* to this story.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;A version of the myth of *Savitr* getting golden hands is told in [Chapter 23][3] of the *Skanda Purana*. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Regarding the myth of *Sigurd* losing his hand during his fight with *Fafnir*, it is not attested in any of the Old Norse and Middle High German sources dealing with the Germanic hero. It is likely a modern embellishment.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savitr&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: https://archive.org/details/Mitra-varunaAnEssayOnTwoIndo-europeanRepresentationsOfSovereignty&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/the-skanda-purana/d/doc423591.html" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31104" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10934" RevisionGUID="5802507f-3910-46c7-862a-f85cc9b60c4e" CreationDate="2024-03-19T16:19:34.857" UserId="11065" Text="In some myths it's believed that it would be easier to marry Aphrodite off to a man who would be okay with him being cheated on - like Hephaestus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But in other stories it's said that Hephaestus demand to marry Aphrodite in order to free his mother, Hera (I don't remember why she would need to be freed), because Zeus promised him anything he'd like. At first he asked for Athenas hand, but that lead to Hephaestus trying to r**pe her. But after he then asks for Aphrodite instead, because she is after all the goddess of beauty." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31106" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10934" RevisionGUID="305ee13f-3904-4eda-8702-649a27e7a92f" CreationDate="2024-03-19T19:17:23.437" UserId="53" Comment="Typos" Text="In some myths it's believed that it would be easier to marry Aphrodite off to a man who would be okay with him being cheated on - like Hephaestus.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;But in other stories it's said that Hephaestus demand to marry Aphrodite in order to free his mother, Hera (I don't remember why she would need to be freed), because Zeus promised him anything he'd like. At first he asked for Athena's hand, but that lead to Hephaestus trying to rape her. But after he then asks for Aphrodite instead, because she is after all the goddess of beauty." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31109" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10936" RevisionGUID="651c6c7f-f79d-40ee-b5b8-76014cb619d6" CreationDate="2024-03-21T07:52:43.233" UserId="11070" Text="In 2021, OSP Red from the Overly Sarcastic Productions youtube channel (a mythology/history focused channel for those not aware) made a video on the Wild Hunt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In that video she mentioned that &quot;several stories describe the hunt being lead by **a dead nobleman named Hackleburg or Hacklebaran**, which seems to be derived from the old norse word Hekla, meaning armored or cloaked one&quot;. This can be seen [6 minutes and 10 seconds into the video][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The problem is that I can't find a single reference to the name &quot;Hacklebaran&quot; from before the video was uploaded, and the only references to &quot;Hackleburg&quot; are the unrelated town in Alabama (which is named after the &quot;Hackles&quot; dropped by the hackberry trees in the region). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've found two references to the name &quot;Hackleburg&quot; and &quot;Hacklebaran&quot; in regards to the Wild Hunt, but they are both fan-created characters that were uploaded after the video was, and seem to be referencing the video.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Strangely, searching for &quot;Hacklebaran before:2020-10-29&quot; (restricting results to before the video was uploaded) does result in the wikipedia page for The Wild Hunt being the top result, showing that there was a connection there at some point. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://youtu.be/vZIl8RZvv6I?si=b8M2mgwF3RvlMh0z&amp;t=410" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31111" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10936" RevisionGUID="651c6c7f-f79d-40ee-b5b8-76014cb619d6" CreationDate="2024-03-21T07:52:43.233" UserId="11070" Text="Where did OSP Red's idea of the leader of the Wild Hunt being a &quot;dead nobleman named Hackleburg or Hacklebaran&quot; come from?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31112" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10936" RevisionGUID="651c6c7f-f79d-40ee-b5b8-76014cb619d6" CreationDate="2024-03-21T07:52:43.233" UserId="11070" Text="|norse|myth-identification|folklore|source-request|european-folklore|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31113" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10936" RevisionGUID="66aa49bf-d58f-446c-8259-e037bf7e1331" CreationDate="2024-03-21T07:58:36.060" UserId="11070" Comment="Due to a slightly different spelling on the wikipedia page, I missed a reference to Hackelburg" Text="In 2021, OSP Red from the Overly Sarcastic Productions youtube channel (a mythology/history focused channel for those not aware) made a video on the Wild Hunt. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;In that video she mentioned that &quot;several stories describe the hunt being lead by **a dead nobleman named Hackleburg or Hacklebaran**, which seems to be derived from the old norse word Hekla, meaning armored or cloaked one&quot;. This can be seen [6 minutes and 10 seconds into the video][1]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The problem is that I can't find a single reference to the name &quot;Hacklebaran&quot; from before the video was uploaded, and the only references to &quot;Hackleburg&quot; are the unrelated town in Alabama (which is named after the &quot;Hackles&quot; dropped by the hackberry trees in the region). &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I've found two references to the name &quot;Hackleburg&quot; and &quot;Hacklebaran&quot; in regards to the Wild Hunt, but they are both fan-created characters that were uploaded after the video was, and seem to be referencing the video.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Additionally, there's a reference on the wikipedia page for Wild Hunt that references a nobleman named &quot;Hackelburg&quot; who was slain by a boar tusk, but it is missing a citation and I can't find anything else about this&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://youtu.be/vZIl8RZvv6I?si=b8M2mgwF3RvlMh0z&amp;t=410" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31114" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10937" RevisionGUID="2d13acaa-5ab9-4951-a2f6-36bb8ab89c3b" CreationDate="2024-03-21T13:12:55.773" UserId="7315" Text="The historical character they seem to be referencing is [Hanns von Hackelberg][1] [German Wikipedia page], a 16th century master hunter in service of Duke Julius of Brunswick-Lüneburg.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The legend says that he was indeed killed by a boar tusk which fell on his foot, giving him an injury which got infected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems really to find sources which are not written in German (see for example the above Wikipedia page, and [this page][2], which Wikipedia uses as a source). I could only find [this page][3] in English, which provides a version of the legend, and cites a 19th century German book as a source.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanns_von_Hackelberg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.hackelberg.de/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://hermetic.com/hubert/hans-von-hackelberg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31116" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10937" RevisionGUID="ffc2adb7-4c9f-4fd6-87c9-acd1d3b4911f" CreationDate="2024-03-21T13:47:17.587" UserId="7315" Comment="added 5 characters in body" Text="The historical character they seem to be referencing is [Hanns von Hackelberg][1] [German Wikipedia page], a 16th century master hunter in service of Duke Julius of Brunswick-Lüneburg.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The legend says that he was indeed killed by a boar tusk which fell on his foot, giving him an injury which got infected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems really hard to find sources which are not written in German (see for example the above Wikipedia page, and [this page][2], which Wikipedia uses as a source). I could only find [this page][3] in English, which provides a version of the legend, and cites a 19th century German book as a source.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanns_von_Hackelberg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.hackelberg.de/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://hermetic.com/hubert/hans-von-hackelberg" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31117" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10937" RevisionGUID="8d2d64b3-b8be-4a8b-b680-299552847084" CreationDate="2024-03-21T14:31:09.663" UserId="7315" Comment="added 215 characters in body" Text="The historical character they seem to be referencing is [Hanns von Hackelberg][1] [German Wikipedia page], a 16th century master hunter in service of Duke Julius of Brunswick-Lüneburg.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The legend says that he was indeed killed by a boar tusk which fell on his foot, giving him an injury which got infected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems really hard to find sources which are not written in German (see for example the above Wikipedia page, and [this page][2], which Wikipedia uses as a source). I could only find [this page][3] in English, which provides a version of the legend, and cites the 19th century book [*Harzsagen zum Teil in der Mundart der Gebirgsbewohner*][4] by Heinrich Pröhle (again, in German) as a source.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanns_von_Hackelberg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.hackelberg.de/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://hermetic.com/hubert/hans-von-hackelberg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www-hackelberg-de.translate.goog/?_x_tr_sch=http&amp;_x_tr_sl=auto&amp;_x_tr_tl=en&amp;_x_tr_hl=en-US&amp;_x_tr_pto=wapp" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31118" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10937" RevisionGUID="a911cf66-922e-4c80-b661-19a5f03b6a2d" CreationDate="2024-03-21T15:34:43.510" UserId="7315" Comment="added 882 characters in body" Text="The historical character they seem to be referencing is [Hanns von Hackelberg][1] [German Wikipedia page], a 16th century master hunter in service of Duke Julius of Brunswick-Lüneburg.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The legend says that he was indeed killed by a boar tusk which fell on his foot, giving him an injury which got infected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems really hard to find sources which are not written in German (see for example the above Wikipedia page, and [this page][2], which Wikipedia uses as a source). I could only find [this page][3] in English, which provides a version of the legend, and cites the 19th century book [*Harzsagen zum Teil in der Mundart der Gebirgsbewohner*][4] by Heinrich Pröhle (again, in German) as a source.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;EDIT:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I think the specific source used by OSP Red in the video you posted is the third volume of Jacob Grimm's [Teutonic Mythology][5], translated by James Steven Stallybrass. At pages 920-921 it says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Lower Saxony and Westphalia this Wild Hunter is identified with a particular person, a certain semi-historic master of a hunt. The accounts of him vary. Westphalian traditions call him Hackelbärend, Hackelbernd, Hackelberg, Hackelblock. This Hackelbärend was a huntsman who went a hunting even on Sundays, for which desecration he was after death (like the man in the moon, p. 717) banished into the air, and there with his hound he must hunt night and day, and never rest [...]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It then goes on describing in more details various variants of the legends surrounding this character.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanns_von_Hackelberg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.hackelberg.de/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://hermetic.com/hubert/hans-von-hackelberg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www-hackelberg-de.translate.goog/?_x_tr_sch=http&amp;_x_tr_sl=auto&amp;_x_tr_tl=en&amp;_x_tr_hl=en-US&amp;_x_tr_pto=wapp&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://archive.org/details/teutonicmytholog03grimuoft/page/n83/mode/2up" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31119" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10937" RevisionGUID="0f49e798-57f0-4395-ac2f-3e9e0b6181e7" CreationDate="2024-03-21T15:45:36.403" UserId="7315" Comment="added 329 characters in body" Text="The historical character they seem to be referencing is [Hanns von Hackelberg][1] [German Wikipedia page], a 16th century master hunter in service of Duke Julius of Brunswick-Lüneburg.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The legend says that he was indeed killed by a boar tusk which fell on his foot, giving him an injury which got infected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems really hard to find sources which are not written in German (see for example the above Wikipedia page, and [this page][2], which Wikipedia uses as a source). I could only find [this page][3] in English, which provides a version of the legend, and cites the 19th century book [*Harzsagen zum Teil in der Mundart der Gebirgsbewohner*][4] by Heinrich Pröhle (again, in German) as a source.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;EDIT:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The specific source used by OSP Red in the video you posted is almost certainly the third volume of Jacob Grimm's [Teutonic Mythology][5], translated by James Steven Stallybrass. At pages 920-921 it says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Lower Saxony and Westphalia this Wild Hunter is identified with a particular person, a certain semi-historic master of a hunt. The accounts of him vary. Westphalian traditions call him *Hackelbärend*, *Hackelbernd*, *Hackelberg*, *Hackelblock*. This *Hackelbärend* was a huntsman who went a hunting even on Sundays, for which desecration he was after death (like the man in the moon, p. 717) banished into the air, and there with his hound he must hunt night and day, and never rest [...]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It then goes on to describe various variants of the legends surrounding this character. At page 923, concerning the etymology of the name, it says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I am disposed to pronounce the Westph. form *Hackelberend* the most ancient and genuine. An OHG. *hahhul* [Goth. *hakuls*], ON. *hökull* m. and *hekla* f., AS. *hacele* f., means garment, cloak, cowl, armour; hence *hakolberand* is OS. for a man in armour [...]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanns_von_Hackelberg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.hackelberg.de/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://hermetic.com/hubert/hans-von-hackelberg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://www-hackelberg-de.translate.goog/?_x_tr_sch=http&amp;_x_tr_sl=auto&amp;_x_tr_tl=en&amp;_x_tr_hl=en-US&amp;_x_tr_pto=wapp&#xD;&#xA;  [5]: https://archive.org/details/teutonicmytholog03grimuoft/page/n83/mode/2up" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31120" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10937" RevisionGUID="611cbbff-c1e6-4751-ae72-0ee7348a9d00" CreationDate="2024-03-21T15:51:24.477" UserId="7315" Comment="deleted 48 characters in body" Text="The historical character they seem to be referencing is [Hanns von Hackelberg][1] [German Wikipedia page], a 16th century master hunter in service of Duke Julius of Brunswick-Lüneburg.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The legend says that he was indeed killed by a boar tusk which fell on his foot, giving him an injury which got infected.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It seems really hard to find sources which are not written in German (see for example the above Wikipedia page, and [this page][2], which Wikipedia uses as a source). I could only find [this page][3] in English, which provides a version of the legend, and cites the 19th century book [*Harzsagen zum Teil in der Mundart der Gebirgsbewohner*][4] by Heinrich Pröhle (again, in German) as a source.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;EDIT:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;The specific source used by OSP Red in the video you posted is almost certainly the third volume of Jacob Grimm's [Teutonic Mythology][5], translated by James Steven Stallybrass. At pages 920-921 it says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; In Lower Saxony and Westphalia this Wild Hunter is identified with a particular person, a certain semi-historic master of a hunt. The accounts of him vary. Westphalian traditions call him *Hackelbärend*, *Hackelbernd*, *Hackelberg*, *Hackelblock*. This *Hackelbärend* was a huntsman who went a hunting even on Sundays, for which desecration he was after death (like the man in the moon, p. 717) banished into the air, and there with his hound he must hunt night and day, and never rest [...]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;It then goes on to describe various variants of the legends surrounding this character. At page 923, concerning the etymology of the name, it says:&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; I am disposed to pronounce the Westph. form *Hackelberend* the most ancient and genuine. An OHG. *hahhul* [Goth. *hakuls*], ON. *hökull* m. and *hekla* f., AS. *hacele* f., means garment, cloak, cowl, armour; hence *hakolberand* is OS. for a man in armour [...]&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;  [1]: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanns_von_Hackelberg&#xD;&#xA;  [2]: http://www.hackelberg.de/&#xD;&#xA;  [3]: https://hermetic.com/hubert/hans-von-hackelberg&#xD;&#xA;  [4]: https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_urhLAAAAYAAJ/page/n117/mode/2up&#xD;&#xA;[5]: https://archive.org/details/teutonicmytholog03grimuoft/page/n83/mode/2up" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31123" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10938" RevisionGUID="37a921f0-b742-46b6-96d3-e3c8eeb8929a" CreationDate="2024-03-22T21:26:08.993" UserId="11071" Text="I've been thinking about what sorts of monsters would realistically be in a haunted house and I wound up wondering if there was an official word for the sorts of places where vampires lived. Is there?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31125" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10938" RevisionGUID="37a921f0-b742-46b6-96d3-e3c8eeb8929a" CreationDate="2024-03-22T21:26:08.993" UserId="11071" Text="Are there official terms in any cultures for vampire hideouts?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31126" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10938" RevisionGUID="37a921f0-b742-46b6-96d3-e3c8eeb8929a" CreationDate="2024-03-22T21:26:08.993" UserId="11071" Text="|monsters|vampires|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31127" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10939" RevisionGUID="2553b985-a738-4860-9641-4591726c073b" CreationDate="2024-03-23T14:54:12.937" UserId="398" Text="In English, you often see &quot;lair&quot; used. You can see a bunch as [book titles](https://www.google.com/search?q=vampire+lair&amp;tbm=bks&amp;prmd=ivsnmbtz&amp;start=0), even going back to the [19th century](https://books.google.com/books?id=64A2AQAAMAAJ&amp;pg=PA129&amp;dq=vampire%27s+lair&amp;hl=en&amp;newbks=1&amp;newbks_redir=0#v=onepage&amp;q=vampire's%20lair&amp;f=false).&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Lair, of course, isn't only used with vampires, but I think that's history enough to establish it as an acceptable use for them." ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31130" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10941" RevisionGUID="ba0c6468-102e-4818-8379-7d1f97e52270" CreationDate="2024-03-30T09:44:32.330" UserId="11085" Text="How many kinds of divinities of nature are there in Greek mythology? &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I heard that Polythemus was a demigod because his father was a god and mother was a nymph.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Merriam-Webster defines nymph as&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&gt; The meaning of NYMPH is any of the minor divinities of nature in classical mythology represented as beautiful maidens dwelling in the mountains, forests, trees, and waters.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;Is a nymph a divinity of nature but less divine than a god and a demigod, but more than a human being?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I also learned that Scylla was a sea monster. Is a monster also a divinity of nature?&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31133" PostHistoryTypeId="1" PostId="10941" RevisionGUID="ba0c6468-102e-4818-8379-7d1f97e52270" CreationDate="2024-03-30T09:44:32.330" UserId="11085" Text="How many kinds of divinities of nature are there in Greek mythology?" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31135" PostHistoryTypeId="3" PostId="10941" RevisionGUID="ba0c6468-102e-4818-8379-7d1f97e52270" CreationDate="2024-03-30T09:44:32.330" UserId="11085" Text="|greek|gods|" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31138" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10942" RevisionGUID="48c21f2c-2a56-4485-8833-2b431bef05c4" CreationDate="2024-03-30T16:05:12.663" UserId="11086" Text="He is three faced because of the three temptations of Christ.  And if the garden of Eden.  The Lusts of the flesh, the lusts of the eyes, and the pride of life.  His nickname is the Tempter" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31140" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10942" RevisionGUID="02b3c045-4621-4a82-8941-dbd5d51dd0a9" CreationDate="2024-03-30T16:05:35.077" UserId="11086" Comment="edited body" Text="He is three faced because of the three temptations of Christ.  And of the garden of Eden.  The Lusts of the flesh, the lusts of the eyes, and the pride of life.  His nickname is the Tempter" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31141" PostHistoryTypeId="5" PostId="10942" RevisionGUID="8fa1e4f3-f551-48f3-b728-15f95a638576" CreationDate="2024-03-30T16:06:09.060" UserId="11086" Comment="deleted 2 characters in body" Text="He is three faced because of the three temptations of Christ.  And of the garden of Eden.  The Lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life.  His nickname is the Tempter" ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31142" PostHistoryTypeId="2" PostId="10943" RevisionGUID="9016cbaf-490a-41e7-a98b-f5e2f8e32106" CreationDate="2024-03-30T18:00:46.400" UserId="11088" Text="I noticed an answer saying that Titans were around 80 stories high, by **Adinkra**.&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;If we are to assume that is around 12 foot per storey then that put them at about 960 feet or 292 metres. &#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;You might be interested to know that I have just found a fossilised giant at the west side of St Agnes Beach (Trevaunance Cove), Cornwall UK. Check your favourite Satellite Map website to see his skill looking out over the bay!&#xD;&#xA;&#xD;&#xA;I estimate this giant to have stood at twice the hight of **Adinkra**'s referenced size, at around 164 stories, 1968 feet, or 600 metres. " ContentLicense="CC BY-SA 4.0" />
  <row Id="31144" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="2289" RevisionGUID="c9aebbc0-d2a1-47a2-8abe-82f59563c9f6" CreationDate="2024-03-30T20:26:17.757" UserId="398" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;cmw&quot;}]}" />
  <row Id="31145" PostHistoryTypeId="19" PostId="2799" RevisionGUID="07bdeff8-e0f4-4d44-ae3c-b55efe8c27f4" CreationDate="2024-03-31T15:35:43.433" UserId="398" Text="{&quot;Voters&quot;:[{&quot;Id&quot;:398,&quot;DisplayName&quot;:&quot;cmw&quot;}]}" />
</posthistory>